# Forgotten Rums....? Evil Overlords...?



## dagger (Jul 15, 2002)

I was laughing while reading that news update on the front page...but it was very interesting.


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## Crothian (Jul 15, 2002)

It was interesting.  I was a little funny, but the considering the fact that it is true really takes the funny out of it a lot.


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## dagger (Jul 15, 2002)

It was funny because of how true it really was I guess.

EDIT:

It didnt surprise me one bit either, I guess thats why I laughed.


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## rounser (Jul 15, 2002)

It's funny because it's true?


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## Ulrick (Jul 15, 2002)

rounser said:
			
		

> *It's funny because it's true? *




Yeah, the Forgotten Realms might be gone if sales don't improve or the books become more crunchy?

Darn
 


Ulrick


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## dagger (Jul 15, 2002)

Its funny to me because thats how I deal with things that are sad and pathetic. I laugh because its sad, and there is nothing I can do about it, so why let it bother me.

I did buy the Silver Marches though, and I will buy all the other FR books. Not because of that news item, but because I like the realms.


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## CRG (Jul 15, 2002)

Truly suckful.

The Rum-history is basically the only reason to play with the Rums.  The crunchiness borders on munchkin and the only reason it is widely accepted is because of the creamy fillings, stories and histories fabricated in the other books.

I'm not the biggest FR fan.  I'm also not a hater and to see the most freaking successful long-running FRPG world shut down in favor of crunchiness, well that would be sad.  What would that set us up to see?  Two books on Wheel of Time?  Followed by two books on "Reign of Fire" followed by a book on "the Bourne Identity" followed by a book on "the Minority Report"?  No more meat between the crunchy Rum books?

On the upside, that irritating Rum inhabitant Drizzle would meet his end as being largely "story" with no useful "crunch"...unless there was to be a crunchy book called something like "Drizzle stats through all Drizzle stories even though we won't be writing any more Drizzle stories but you can read this one anyway because we think Drizzle crunch is what you REALLY want".


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## dagger (Jul 15, 2002)

Also im not really worried about the realms disapearing anyway. They still sell a lot and they always have sold pretty decent, so I dont think they would go anywhere. Even if they did go away, I have so much realm material from the past that I think I would survive.


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## I'm A Banana (Jul 15, 2002)

It's scary 'cuz it's true.

Not scary to me, personally, in this instance...I'm rather ambivalent about how much they butcher the Realms. () But rather scary from a general standpoint.

I mean, if these yahoos are eeking every bit of crunchy outta every supplement.....it's scary. Scary that not only are they encouraging crunchy, they're actively discouraging the fluff that makes the crunchy interesting.

Really gives credence to the claims that WotC is focusing too much on the crunch, and not enough on the things that make the crunch worthwhile. 

.....which is why 3rd parties are destined to succeed.


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## starwolf (Jul 15, 2002)

This is what happens when the bean-counters are put in charge.
Now bean-counters have their place in the universe, just not in charge. It is even worse when the bean-counters that have never even stepped into the kitchen, let alone made a Donut Core or a Forgotten Rum, think that they, and they alone, KNOW the secret recipe for making the kind of Donut Cores or Forgotten Rum's that will entice the gnomes to trade their hard-earned beans to the elves.


Just my little *rant*!


Starwolf (who's having bean-counter issues of his own).


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## Nightfall (Jul 15, 2002)

I personally want to show the bean counters my own little world...and introduce them to Tempus' new friend, Vangal and his hearld.  Then we'd have less bean counters. The worst thing that can happen to a fun thing is to have it owned by people that have no clue what is they are REALLY doing. 

What's scary to me, is I have players that LIKE crunch more than fluff. I guess that's why we never campaign much.


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## Dahak (Jul 15, 2002)

That was completely hilarious, one of the funniest gaming-related pieces I've ever read.....completely hilarious until the very end. Then it became surprisingly depressing.

I've never laughed that hard, and so quickly fall from it. I feel like I've just watched a marathon of Xena or Buffy.... humor one moment, somberness the next.


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## Talvisota (Jul 15, 2002)

FR will never disappear because someone else will buy the rights.  IMHO, WotC will spin off slow-selling campaign settings to 3rd parties who will keep them alive.

I am already a thoroughly disillusioned man, mostly due to how I see your tax dollars spent over here (I spend them, BTW) and in a rather unfortunate way I understand what the bean-counters were talking about.  It is a for-profit company.  Their goal is to make money.


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## Nightfall (Jul 15, 2002)

This is why I want to be a god. That way no one takes my money but me!


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## rounser (Jul 15, 2002)

I remember theorising in a recent thread that you shouldn't give gamers exactly what they buy the most _to the exclusion of all else_* or the game will suffer, but more than one person was like, "Who are you to tell me what I should want for my game???"...fair enough.  But this is sort of the thing I was referring to...with thinking like this at the other end, the power is in our hands as consumers to manipulate the success of the game, but we're asleep at the wheel.

Cool, eh? 

*: This is the important part to note.


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## 2WS-Steve (Jul 15, 2002)

I probably wouldn't mind so much WotC giving campaign setting the core book treatment. One picture would be releasing one or two core campaign settings each year in one large FR-quality book, backing it with perhaps one supplement, then licensing support products out to a few other companies or releasing enough material as open content that small companies could write support material for the setting. That might be one way to get all the great old settings back in print in a big way and for WotC to keep making bucks. Also, I sort of like trying out well-developed new campaign settings; they breathe new vitality into a game when done well.


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## Trevalon Moonleirion (Jul 15, 2002)

*sigh*  Both darkly amusing and very depressing.  Even if I didn't love the Realms, it would still scare me.  WotC just doesn't seem as friendly as it used to...


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## Nightfall (Jul 15, 2002)

I never felt it was that friendly BEFORE Hasbro took over.


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## Numion (Jul 15, 2002)

I remember when the FRCS was released that people complained (when has WotC released a book that wasn't complained about? ) about the crunchy bits in it; they should've been in a separate book or something. (So that non-rum fans could've bought it for less.)

SKR has given the reason for this in his fairytale. Sad but true, even I feel a little 'suckered' if I buy a completely fluff book. When my players also want to borrow the book, and are excited about it (a la Magic of F, which is crunchy), it just helps me justify the buying, in my mind. Not so in the case of Lords of Rumness, which they can't even read - but which was still a great book in it's own right. 

Awh, what the hell. I'll buy the Sliver Marches anyway.


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## dagger (Jul 15, 2002)

It does have some crunchiness to it though.


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## Thanlis (Jul 15, 2002)

There's something to be said for reaching out to twice as many people, mind you. If you read the story at face value, you have a story about two supplements which sold very well and extended the audience. I can't see that as a bad thing.

Sales figures are, after all, a rough indication of how many people wanted to buy the book. And if traditional fans felt cheated by the FRCS, you'd expect that they would have failed to buy Magic of Faerun. Yet it apparently sold about as well as the FRCS.

Is it wrong to ask your designers to put in more stuff that people want to buy? Is Wizards obligated to satisfy 40 people, or is it better when they satisfy 100 people? Should they discard those 60 people?

Taking a step back from that argument, I think it's interesting that the argument centered around crunch. There were a lot of game stats in Lords of Darkness... but I didn't think it was as good as FRCS, when you got right down to it. Silver Marches looks a) more similar to the bulk of FRCS and b) better written.

It seems a shame that our gnomes got their backs up about the crunch vs. non-crunch distinction, and missed the chance to educate the bean counters on useful vs. not as useful.


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## Orcus (Jul 15, 2002)

Maybe this is more for the d20 Publishers post, but I think we might be overlooking some very juicy information in that story. Sales figures. I presume everything is in 1000s. Or at least in proper proportion. Very interesting. For those who dont know, sales numbers are normally a pretty closely guarded secret.

Clark


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## Gizzard (Jul 15, 2002)

> ... missed the chance to educate the bean counters on useful vs. not as useful.

I think one of the sub-morals of that little fable was that the race of bean-counters has a hard time grasping abstract concepts like "quality" or "new-ness".  Things like "ship date", "cost to produce" and "monthly unit sales" are the things that excite the bean people.

When put in charge of operations, the Beans will simply select the most successful product yet produced and attempt to produce it over and over again.  Until it stops selling due to market saturation.  Then they will select a new golden goose and bleed that one dry as well.  Arguements about "quality" or "usefulness" fall on uncomprehending ears.  ("How can anything about a silly pretending game be useful anyway?," they ask themselves.  "Certainly not as useful as a bean.")

What galls me about the situation is that I could write a short computer program that would exactly duplicate this functionality.  It would have to be updated from time to time with the current industry buzzwords ("crunchy", "immersive", "pixel-shaders"), but once that was decided I'm sure this program could compete successfully with all but the finest bean-counters.  Here is a sample output:

<BEANSIM:> Sales data input shows that Epic Level Handbook is the most successful product for the last 72 hours.  Buzzdata shows that Epic Level Handbook is "epic", "non-locale driven" and "brown".  As a result, production will be halted on all "locale" books.  All books remaining in production will focus on being "epic".  And "brown".


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## Thanlis (Jul 15, 2002)

Gizzard said:
			
		

> *> ... missed the chance to educate the bean counters on useful vs. not as useful.
> 
> I think one of the sub-morals of that little fable was that the race of bean-counters has a hard time grasping abstract concepts like "quality" or "new-ness".  Things like "ship date", "cost to produce" and "monthly unit sales" are the things that excite the bean people.
> 
> ...



*

Yes, that's the kind of attitude that leads to serious communication problems. If you approach your bean counters with the belief that they are incapable of comprehending anything but immediate sales numbers, you're pretty well screwed.

If, on the other hand, you prepare and can talk about the relationship between quality and sales, and so on, you're in better shape.

I made the transition from system administrator to manager over the last few years. It was a real revelation. There are usually communication problems on both sides of the divide, but there's not much the rank and file can do to fix the problems on the bean counter side.

But that just makes it all the more important not to treat bean counters as a malevolent alien race. If you do that, you give up /any/ hope of communicating.*


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## Derulbaskul (Jul 15, 2002)

The true problem is one of incompatible corporate cultures, don't you think?

The bean-counters are simply doing what they're trained to do within the context of the prevailing corporate culture. What they don't understand is that the culture that produces "Forgotten Rums" is completely different to their own... and vice versa.

Cheers
NPP


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## Mistwell (Jul 15, 2002)

Here is the truth. I bought the setting book and magic book strictly because of the crunchy bits. I did not buy the Lords of Darkness book, because it lacked in the crunchy-bit area. 

Having bought the first two books, I am now considering buying the novels of FR, which I never bothered to touch in prior years.  I would never have considered it now, but-for the fact that I bought these books with crunchy-bits.

Storytelling is what novels are for. Storytelling is what short stories in dragon magazine are for. Storytelling is not what supplements are for. Supplements are for crunchy-bits. Supplements are not the best forum to tell stories.  In fact, I think supplements are a rotten forum to tell stories.  

And I will voice that opinion loudly, with my wallet.  Others will as well.


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## TeaBee (Jul 15, 2002)

Psst... WotC D&D people...

Make smaller books. Charge propotionaly the same as one bigger book. Less profit (production costs)... but more copies sold!


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## Heap Thaumaturgist (Jul 15, 2002)

Personally I think part of it boils down to having two "castes" within the hobby.  They aren't firm castes, but they're there.  The Dungeon Masters and the Players.  They don't want the same thing, and by the nature of the game (one DM to 4-8 Players) that which pleases the DMs sells much less than that which pleases the Players.

Of course there is crossover ... the Player who is DM, the DM who is Player, but for the large part it'll stay true ... you have one DM in the group that runs an FR campaign, the other is running his home brew.

Crunchiness sells to Players.  They want good Crunch, especially Crunch that will give them more cool powers.  Mmmmm.  Crunchy Powers.  DMs also like Crunch because much Crunch is DMCrunch.  (We must admit, though, that most Crunch is for the Players).

Fluff, however, is all for the DMs.  Dungeon Masters like Fluff, because Fluff is Recipies of Rum.  For the DM who has no time to distill his own Rum, or who likes the elves' flavor of Rum, these Fluffy bits are great.  Unfortunately, even within the DM caste, many of them do not want the Fluff the elves produce, because they like picking the Fluff from their own navels.  (This DM being one.  My ego demands that I think my Fluff is the best Fluff of all.)  Few few Players who do not also belong to the DM caste enjoy Fluff.  Indeed, some Fluff should not be consumed by Players, for it is the Poison Metagame.  (Many of us build up a tolerance to Poison Metagame, since it is an ingredient in so many things.)

So, when you get right down to it, the market for pure Fluff is probably 1/2 or 1/3 that of Crunchy.  That's why even books of Fluff have Crunchy within.

Fluff, though, is integral to the hobby.  Without Fluff we're soon out of business, because Crunchy has little nutritional value alone.  And, I must admit, I'm a little stumped ... because I don't buy much in the way of Fluff, myself.  I don't play in the Realms, only have a handful of times by Player demand and stopped when interest ran out.  I didn't try to stir up interest.  I haven't bought any 3E Realms stuff, and I won't buy Silver Marches ... I have no reason to.  I really wish I did, because I know how evil Bean Counters are, and that arcane tests are wicked things.

The Bean Counters are right, in their way, but Bean Counters of Corporate America have a way of not seeing the long game.  Of course, to Bean Counters, if the little elves no longer sell any Crunchy Donut Cores or Crunchy Forgotten Rums they can get rid of the elves and buy new elves that make something else.  You play the best Elf Product any elf has that will draw the most beans from the gnomes, and keep playing it, untill it doesn't get any more beans.  Then you throw that elf away and buy a new one, with new Elf Product.  

Because, I'm sure, it's cheaper for the Bean Counters that way somehow.  Or else Bean Counters wouldn't do it.  You can be absolutely sure, in any situation, that Bean Counters will find the one way of doing things that get them the most beans in the shortest amount of time.  It's like putting a lazy person on a job.  You can be sure that within short order, a lazy person will find the fastest and most efficient way of doing something that has to get done.  

That's become the flagship of the American Way Of Doing Things.  And, in the end, you know whose fault it is?  The Gnomes.  Yup.  Because each Gnome is thinking only of himself in any particular situation.  We're all a bunch of little Ayn Rands wandering around saying, largely, "It's each gnome for himself!!".  America doesn't have a feeling of Pride in Product that some other countries do.  It's how we are.  Why pay three times as much for a hand crafted Whoosit when we can get a shoddy Whoosit for 1/3 the price.  Sure, it breaks a year later, and sure, it doesn't look as nice as the Handcrafted Whoosit, but what the heck, right?

I've worn the same pair of boots (steel toe, American made) every day for the last four years.  I get my boots repaired down town by a little elf that repairs shoes, I don't throw my boots out when something is wrong.  I paid a lot for these boots, mostly because I liked the idea of wearing them every day and having an elf repair them if they needed it.  I like things that contain Craft more than I like things with only Utility ... I'm head and shoulders bigger than your average gnome, so most of my stuff costs more anyway.  I hate when expensive things break, so I'll pay a little more for the Craft within.

And, really, Fluff takes more in the way of Craft than Crunchy does.  Crunchy, when you get right down to it, is the manipulation of numbers.  That's the core of any game.  Crunchy means "I can do this with the numbers, I couldn't before."  Fluff is in the stories around the Crunchy.  Fluff takes Craft, and since most of the little Gnomes playing the game have some Elf blood in them, alot of them make their own Fluff.   Crunchy is very Utility because you get the most mile from it ... more gnomes can use any particular Crunch and can put their own Fluff around it.

If no Gnomes buy the Fluff, though, the elves that make Fluff get no beans.  Without beans the elves that make Fluff eventually starve to death or, worse, turn into kobolds and start working at McDonalds.  This is pretty much true for any Craft.

I'm not saying the American Way Of Doing Things is wholley wrong, mind you.  I love living in America, and without our way of doing things we wouldn't have probably the best standard of living in any nation.  But we have to admit that there are problems with our way of doing things, and we should aknowledge them.  By being aware of our actions we can keep beautiful things in the world like elves that fix shoes and elves that distill Forgotten Rums.  We need elves that write poetry and elves that perform plays.  

As far as Gnomes go, American Gnomes work the most hours.  We're hard working Gnomes, and we really enjoy all the options we have to spend our beans on.  But maybe instead of 50 extra channels of cable or that ten drinks at the bar we can spend our beans to show the Bean Counters that we really do enjoy things that take Craft and don't offer immediate Utility.   It's one thing to say:  "I really like poetry." and another to lay down 12 beans for a book of modern poetry.  It's one thing to say "I appreciate theater." and another to miss two cruddy-but-flashy movies and go see a play.

Our beans is what makes the world go 'round.  We can't really bitch and moan about the evil Bean Counters taking away the fluffy nice things in life if we refuse to spend our beans on them in favor of the fast and immediate pleasures.  I could have bought two pair of snazzy popular sneakers for what I've paid for my boots and their repair, but snazzy sneakers are usually pieces of crap that wear out in a year or less.  And man, don't nothing on earth fit like leather you've worn every day for four years ... I can sleep standing up in those boots.

Now, if somebody will produce some Fluff Books that catch my eye so I can buy them.  (Or, if I win that contest, I can write my Fluffy Books and, darnit, buy them you silly gnomes.)

--HT


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## Metus (Jul 15, 2002)

FR supplements are perfect the way they are!  Don't let it die!  Ahhhhh!


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## rounser (Jul 15, 2002)

> Storytelling is what novels are for. Storytelling is what short stories in dragon magazine are for. Storytelling is not what supplements are for. Supplements are for crunchy-bits. Supplements are not the best forum to tell stories. In fact, I think supplements are a rotten forum to tell stories.



When did worldbuilding become _purely_ storytelling, pray tell?


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## rankarrog (Jul 15, 2002)

I have another idea why the less crunchy books don'T sell that much: If you are a speaker of a foreign language (like me) it's a pretty easy thing to understand the crunchy bits (i.e. Spells, GameMechanics, etc.) to a degree that you can use them, but it's harder to understand the less crunchy bits to make them useful for the game(Not that it's impossible, its just a bit harder to read 20 pages of plain text, than 3 sentences which describe a spell).

So I bought the english crunchy books but wait for the translated less chrunchy stuff. I belive many foreign D&D-Players do the same.


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## rounser (Jul 15, 2002)

> Fluff, however, is all for the DMs. Dungeon Masters like Fluff, because Fluff is Recipies of Rum. For the DM who has no time to distill his own Rum, or who likes the elves' flavor of Rum, these Fluffy bits are great. Unfortunately, even within the DM caste, many of them do not want the Fluff the elves produce, because they like picking the Fluff from their own navels. (This DM being one. My ego demands that I think my Fluff is the best Fluff of all.)



I'd rather they just sell us Rum (i.e. entire campaign worth of adventures.  Innabook.).  There's too much work involved in distilling a genuinely big, quality one, IMO, unless the Fluff is very low level.  Crunch and macro-fluff don't help save much time in making My Kind of Rum.  

Don't believe me?  Consider the Dancey Lion's take on how hard it is for frickin' _full time elves_ to make what I'm talking about:


> Second, those products take too long to design.  Handling character
> development from really low levels to really high levels is incredibly
> tricky.  Our data tells us that most people who play D&D restart their games
> about every six months.  So we're going to be designing products with an eye
> ...



There are a lot of deluded gnomes out there who think they have enough time to make quality rum, _on top of making their own fluff_, when not even elves who slave for hours day after day think they can do it!  The gnomes who actually pull it off seem to be rare, but some of these creatures write stories on these very boards which prove that they manage it...


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## Heap Thaumaturgist (Jul 15, 2002)

Thanlis said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I made the transition from system administrator to manager over the last few years. It was a real revelation. There are usually communication problems on both sides of the divide, but there's not much the rank and file can do to fix the problems on the bean counter side.
> 
> But that just makes it all the more important not to treat bean counters as a malevolent alien race. If you do that, you give up /any/ hope of communicating. *




Ahhh.    Here's where my field comes into play, sort of.  I'm a rhetoric major concentrating in Computer/Human Interaction, for the most part.  It's a buzzy sort of field, but really when I get into the industry sector my major job will be communication problems between managers, users, and developers.

It's all mostly issues of knowledge and context.  The context for Bean Counters is trying to get the most beans they can, built up around alot of factors.  One of those factors is the people above the Bean Counters approve when the counters can show that they consistently bring in a high level of beans.  You get condensed data as you move up the tree.  To the people at the top at Hasbro, WotC is just a group of numbers.  If the D&D part of WotC makes a product that brings in TONS of beans, and then NOTHING they produce ever brings in that many beans again, it looks like a problem to them, because they want to keep bringing in the top number of beans.  It doesn't really matter that when it was TSR they made piddly beans with everything.  All they're seeing is that the Core Books brought in, say, 25000 Beans.  Then Forgotten Rums Setting brought in 15000 Beans ... Lords of Rumness brought in 7000 Beans.

If you condense the data down you get:

25000 Beans - Product X
15000 Beans - Product Y
7000   Beans - Product Z

Well, this D&D part of WotC is certainly not living up to the Bean Expectation that the Donut Core produced, now is it?  If Hasbro's context doesn't contain the information that WotC's does, or that The Elves' does ... they have to work off those figures up there above.  Now, down here, our context has lots of information about what is going on.

The Core sold big time because, to play the game, EVERYBODY has to have it.  You're never going to reach that number again.  Everybody doesn't need Forgotten Rums.  Even fewer need Lords of Rumness.  This doesn't mean, however, in the long run that Lords of Rumness is a bad product.  If you look back back back, to the age of T$R, you'll find that, say, all their products brought in 3000 or 4000 Beans.  Even the lowest selling book is still making more than it used to.  Really, you can say, 7000 Beans is about the average of what a D&D product will make, and you're really only in danger when you're not making 7000 Beans.  

D&D should be trying to explain to The Bean Counters that what they should really be expecting from them is 7000 Beans per Elf Product, and that the 15000 Bean product is going to show up every three or four products.  Now, if some little Elf at D&D promised Haze Bros or Wotk that they could bring in 15000 Beans on a regular basis ... you've got problems.  (I certainly hope no silly elf did that.)  

There's also alot of other variables that you really need to invent buzzwords for.  Really all "Buzz Words" are is a form of condensed data.  You're putting a concept into a short phrase that is easily remembered.  The Bean Counters' context needs to be changed to include information on other things, and they have to be convinced of the viability of these other ideas ... like "quality" (I'm not sure what that means, honestly, what's Quality about Lords of Rumness?  We should be shooting for "Quality" in all our Elf Product, no?) ... but things like the ability to generate sales of other products later ...

If, say, Silver Munches will generate more sales of Secret Product Z later down the road, a way to explain that to the Bean Counters needs to be created.  If some of these books that have lower sales MUST be produced to keep interest in the hobby at a peak, THAT must be explained to the Bean Counters in a way they'll understand it.  Their context doesn't include playing role playing games ... the more information you can condense and bring to their table, the better you'll be.  If you can say:  "Alright, Silver Munches is what we call a product of 'Interest Maintenance'.  It will sell to a smaller demographic, but that demographic will in turn stimulate another market group to purchase Secret Product Z.  Without Silver Munches, Secret Product Z will bring us an estimated _____ fewer beans.  As you see, by producing Silver Munches we are, in fact, not only bringing in 7000 Beans but stimulating the market to bring an aditional 5000 Extra Beans from Secret Product Z."

That sort of language brings your context into the context of the Bean Counters.  Now, end run, if Silver Munches isn't going to make a basic profit that should be expected from D&D Elf Product and isn't going to do anything down the line to stimulate the market for continued purchasing of later product ... then it really shouldn't be produced, no matter how much an elf really likes it.  

In the end, you have to show the Bean Counters that, in the long run, Fluff adds to the continued viability of the D&D Product Line as a whole.

... ... as a disclaimer I'll say I don't have alot of familiarity with Bean Counting (although I am picking up a Business minor this year), and I know even less about the internal workings of Hasbro/WotC/D&D.  I'm mostly demonstrating how language, knowledge, and context barriers between two groups can be overcome to the betterment of both groups.  You just need to find a good rhetorician with training in communication difficulties within industry and corporate America.  

--HT 

(I really should go to sleep, it's 4am)


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## LightPhoenix (Jul 15, 2002)

For one thing, I think we can drop the innuendo, as cute as it is.  Let's just call it what it is.

Second, this really, really saddens me.  In another thread, someone asked me if I needed the WotC seal on my products.  Things like this make me say no, and support third party publishers all the way.

Third, I think that everyone can do more with the crunchy bits than the fluffy bits.  That isn't to say the fluffy bits are bad, but for people who run their own campaigns, buying a book like Lords of Darkness or Silver Marches isn't really adding much useful to their campaign, whereas buyings something like the FRCS or Magic of Faerun is.

At the very best, it's a books of ideas.  Now, I don't know about other people, but I've gotten lots of ideas just looking at the crunchy bits and saying, "Ooh, I know how I could work that in, and have a neat story!".  On the other hand, flipping through Lords of Darkness at the store, I was getting that reaction much less.

I think this just all points toward Hasbro's waning interest in both D&D and WotC.  First the sale of the retail stores, then the periodicals, and now this... how long before they sell off the entire thing?

[EDIT] Because I KNOW people are going to get the wrong idea... no, I don't support this.  I may not like the Realms, but that doesn't mean I want the thing to die.  If people like the campaign, more reason to keep producing it.  I'm just trying to produce a reasoning for why the higher-ups are saying what they're saying, and why the crunchy books sell more.


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## dreamthief (Jul 15, 2002)

Hmm I feel like I've walked into a fairy-tale gone wrong. Is there a scene where those elves come back to take over the Cores and the Rums? Isn't that how it's supposed to end? 

Oh I see it's a _to be continued_. Dang I hate cliffhangers...


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## Shadowdancer (Jul 15, 2002)

This is all just another example of what happens when Creativity becomes Big Business. The same thing happened with the motion picture industry, and the popular music industry.

A movie comes out and sells a lot of tickets. All the movie studioes try to make a movie just like it. In fact, many movies like it. Until people stop going to see those movies. Then something fresh and new comes along, people go to see it, and the imitations start again.

Or a new style of music gets popular. The music companies start looking for other artists who sound like that style. Or they get artists already on their rosters to change their style to sound like the new style. This goes on until people stop buying that style. And then a new style comes along, people start buying it, and the imitations start again, and the scouts are out looking for new artists playing that style.

Anytime a business that sells something that is Creative is run by people who are not Creative, you have these types of conflicts. The movie studios were all started by people who made movies. Sometimes those people had no business sense, so they hired people to count the beans for them, but they maintained control of the business. But as the business got profitable, and the creative people in charge got old, the business got sold to a bigger business, a business run not by movie people but by business people.

Same thing with the music companies. Founded by musicians, but later sold to companies run by people who didn't make music.


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## Randolph Carter (Jul 15, 2002)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> *I personally want to show the bean counters my own little world...and itnroduce them toi Tempus' new friend, Vangal and his hearld.  *




Wouldn't you rather introduce them to my FR campaign where we replaced the wimpy 3E Tempus with Vashanka of Thieves World infamy?

Tyranny,
PTL


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## Frosty (Jul 15, 2002)

When GW made WH 40,000 3rd Ed they made it all crunch. They had already lifted the fluff over to their publishing branch The Black Library. This killed my interest in the game. The stories weren't so good as to sell by itself (not to me) and the rules weren't all that fantastic without the stories. Me, I like chocolate chip. A little bit of both. All crunch is a cracker.


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## bushfire (Jul 15, 2002)

You know what? 
I bought the FRCS, Monsters of Fareun and Magic of Fareun.
I didn't buy Lords of Darkness or faiths & Pantheons and don't plan on buying Silver Marches.

Why?

I don't play in the Realms! These books have so little value to me over the more "crunchy" ones like the FRCS. I don't care about Realms specific stories or cities or characters or organizations. Most of the stuff written for the Realms is way more trouble than it's worth to use in a non-Realms setting. If there is not enough "crunchy" stuff that can easily have the Realms serial numbers filed off and reused somewhere else then why should I bother with it?

The same goes for Realms specific modules. I looked through Into the Dragons Lair and Pool of Radiance and found them both too tied to the Realms to use in any campaign outside the Realms. City of the Spider Queen will also get a good look over before buying for the same reason.

I feel sorry for those that run a Realms campaign in that most likely the source of new fluff (excepting of course novels and TV shows) will dry up in the not so far future but you won't see me change my buying habits to prevent it.


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## Warchild (Jul 15, 2002)

Randolph Carter said:
			
		

> *Wouldn't you rather introduce them to my FR campaign where we replaced the wimpy 3E Tempus with Vashanka of Thieves World infamy?
> Tyranny,
> PTL *




Yeah, lets see what those beaners do when the Storm Lord tattos "Cruncheth Not Without Fluff!" on their foreheads with a lightning strike from the sky. 

I'm am probably in the vast minority when i say i'm not that concerned about this. In fact i'm surprised that so many people ARE shocked or concerned about this. Did you really expect different? The only difference in this case are the 3rd party publishers, of which so many are truly wired into their fan-base. God bless them. I find that the standard level/ingredient of the big bad elves has gotten so far astray from my own recipes, that i occassionally forget they exist. I have their Core recipes, but beyond that they are in the mud and dirt competing against the all the other elves in the kitchen, scratching out recipes in the hopes i'll give them my cabbage. Lately, they have losing out on a LOT of cabbage. But hey, its an elf-eat-elf world out there. If they stop producing their Fluff in flavor of their Crunch, and this may damn me to the Hell of a 1000 burning donuts but so be it, i don't mind. I haven't liked their Fluff in quite a while. They might as well stick to the Crunch and see where that leads them. Not that i'm all that happy with their recent or upcoming Crunch.

From a consumer standpoint, i never planned on buying anything other than the FRCS book (not even that until i got it cheap). I haven't been happy with the Realms since 1E. 2E damn near ran me out of the D&D fold all together, in fact it did. Not JUST FR 2E, but that was a majority factor of it. Let me point out that the vast majority of 2E books WERE Fluff. But crap FLUFF, IMM, is worse than that crap Crunch. I'm one of the home-made fluffers, because no one can craft better fluff for me and my elves than me and my elves. No one. Now, some independant elven groups produce fluff that occasionally open my eyes and i'll purchase it. A few other elven companies produce my kind of Fluff and i watch their their recipes more carefully and hence, they get my cabbage. Thats how the Fluff and Crunch world is. 
Now, i'm going to rest my head, because all of this Fluff/Crunch/Bean/Cabbage Innuendo is hurting my head. In fact, from know on whenever a player of mine using the Innuendo skill, i'm going to start having them make Will saves to avoid splitting headaches!!


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## Eridanis (Jul 15, 2002)

Orcus said:
			
		

> *Maybe this is more for the d20 Publishers post, but I think we might be overlooking some very juicy information in that story. Sales figures. I presume everything is in 1000s. Or at least in proper proportion. Very interesting. For those who dont know, sales numbers are normally a pretty closely guarded secret.
> 
> Clark *




This is what jumped out at me, too. I already knew that Hasbro was tightening its grip on WotC; but what I've been curious to know is how many books they've sold.

Shall we start taking bets on how much longer D&D will remain a Hasbro imprint? I say in two years, Clark (Necromancer Games) or Monte (Malhovoc) or Chris Pramas (Green Ronin) will be the new Geek-in-Chief of our favorite game. Just hypothesizing...


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## Kid Charlemagne (Jul 15, 2002)

Count me among those who find very little value in the Silver Marches or similar books.  I've bought nearly every major WoTC 3e, from Core books to Splatbooks to DD&DG to the FRCS and Magic of Faerun.  I will probably get the Book of Challenges and Epic book, though I'm in no hurry.

Silver Marches never had a shot at my gaming dollar.   I don't run in the Realms, so I have zero need for it.

Sean seems to have forgotten the lessons of the past.  Ryan Dancey has pointed out many times the laws of diminishing returns in regards to settings and settings books.  I also concur with those who point out that supplements are crappy places to tell stories.  Or to be more to the point, almost all the stories I've ever read in supplements tended to be crappy.

I know designers love to write fluffy pieces that show off their prose and original ideas, but I run D&D campaigns.  Not fiction judging sessions.  

I also run them in my own game world - mostly because the supplements for world settings are not consistent in meeting my wants and needs for my games.  That means that all the non-crunchy bits might as well be blank space.

I know SKR hung around rec.frp.dnd back in the day, and he was certainly there in the waning days of TSR, when it seemed like 90% of the people were clamoring for adventures and supplements that didn't try to force a story on them.  We know how that story ended:

The elves got their way and D&D nearly vanished from the world.  

I'm sorry for those who might prefer to write such things, but I haven't been buying their products for decades, and most likely won't in the future.  Give me Magic of Faerun or a MMII over Silver Marches any day.


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## Teflon Billy (Jul 15, 2002)

Eridanis said:
			
		

> *...I say in two years, Clark (Necromancer Games) or Monte (Malhovoc) or Chris Pramas (Green Ronin) will be the new Geek-in-Chief of our favorite game. Just hypothesizing... *




My money is on *White Wolf*.

Which I guess means it _still_ might be Clark


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## Grazzt (Jul 15, 2002)

bushfire said:
			
		

> *You know what?
> I bought the FRCS, Monsters of Fareun and Magic of Fareun.
> I didn't buy Lords of Darkness or faiths & Pantheons and don't plan on buying Silver Marches.
> 
> ...




Totally agree with bushfire. I too bought the FRCS, MoF, and MaoF, but didn't buy Faiths & Pantheons, Lords of Darkness, and I won't be buying Silver Marches. Basically for the same reasons bushfire stated. I have never been a big FR fan at all, but I borrow here and there from the setting (all good things come from borrowing...look what the Realms has borrowed from other settings, mythologies, etc.)

Realms-specific modules, I have never bought. Just not worth the trouble of ripping all the "Realmslore" out to run it.

But- even if the Realms "dies" (in the sense that it isn't being published anymore) there is already enough Realms stuff from 1e, 2e, and 3e to keep players going for quite a long time.

Now- anybody think this is the reason WotC ran their "New Campaign Setting" hunt? Because they knew FR's days were marked?


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## Spove (Jul 15, 2002)

I think the bean counters should do a case study on the Harley-Davidson AMF years.

AMF bought HD and took a quality based product and drove it into the ground by focusing only on the bottom line. What turned HD around in the end? Why it was HD execs buying HD back from AMF. And once again focusing on quality.

Anybody want to go in halves-ies on WOTC?


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## Drew (Jul 15, 2002)

Frosty said:
			
		

> *Me, I like chocolate chip. A little bit of both. All crunch is a cracker. *




Great quote! Well said.


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## bushfire (Jul 15, 2002)

Grazzt said:
			
		

> *
> But- even if the Realms "dies" (in the sense that it isn't being published anymore) there is already enough Realms stuff from 1e, 2e, and 3e to keep players going for quite a long time.
> 
> Now- anybody think this is the reason WotC ran their "New Campaign Setting" hunt? Because they knew FR's days were marked? *




I give the Realms less than 5 years before it goes away as a published setting. Once the "new" campaign setting gets up and running (should take about 2 years) the Realms will just fade away. I can't see Wotc publishing more than one major setting at a time.

It is possible that the TV show or Cartoon or whatever they are planning may breath some life into it but that is a long shot.


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## Balsamic Dragon (Jul 15, 2002)

I just started running in the Realms, not because I haven't, in the past, come up with my own campaign worlds, but solely because the 3E FR book was very compelling and had lots of good fluff.  I have little need for crunch these days.  I can write it myself.  In fact, so can everyone else.  Crunch is plentiful on the net and while the overall quality is low it is easily fixed and implemented in any game you happen to be running.  

Fluff, on the other hand, takes time to write.  I find that I don't have that kind of time these days (unless, of course, I get picked for the setting search, in which case I will make time   More importantly, you can own fluff and you can't really own crunch anymore.  Crunch, it should be noted, is mostly OGL.  Fluff is not.  Thus, it seems odd to me that a company would be concentrating on putting out crunch rather than fluff.  Even the crunchy bits that aren't OGL are easy to copy with slight alterations into OGL crunch.  After all, gamers have been writing house rules for years.

So more fluff is really the way to go in my opinion.  Lots of good fluff with a little bit of crunch to back it up!  Is anyone else getting tired of this metaphor?

Balsamic Dragon


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## MulhorandSage (Jul 15, 2002)

I'm in Sean's camp with this one. I like crunchy bits, but it needs the cream to achieve the best flavor.

I think you need go no further than to compare Magic of Faerun with Tome and Blood. Both are books of spells and prestige classes that were released at roughly the same time. Both have a lot of value. However, for me, Magic of Faerun blows Tome and Blood out of the water, and it does so for several reasons; its better production value and more content are obviously important, but the chief reason is that Magic of Faerun has a well developed setting from which to draw its inspirations.

Magic of Faerun exists in a living breathing world, and it's all the better because of it. Without the content of the Realms, it'd be a much more generic (and bland) book, and the creators would have had a much shallower well of inspiration to draw upon. Good worldbuilding builds on itself. Build one, and the crunchy bits will come in greater abundance than if you'd striven solely for crunchy bits from the start.

Scott Bennie


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## Lady Dragon (Jul 15, 2002)

Ok ,lets look at some facts.Basically there are 3 reason a person will buy a forgotten realms book (or any book for that matter,though I"m sticking to FR for now)Please note that more than one reason may apply.

1.This person intends to use FR as there campaign setting.

2.This peron intends to read this book for inspiration(he hopes to get ideas for his own campaign),Entertainment(he likes to read them for enjoyment)or information(he's a player trying to get an edge.)

3.This person wants to strip the book of crunchy bits for other reasons either as a player or a DM.

So now I'll go through each of the FR books with the type that might use them.

A.Forgotten Campaign Setting-Type 1.Absolutely can't play FR without it unless you want to use only 1st and 2nd edition material. Type 2.Yes its a very good book with a great deal of information. Type 3.Of course almost half the book is crunchy bits.

B.Monsters of Faerun-Type 1 yes type 2 & 3-only if you like monsters.

C.Magic of Faerun-Type 1-yes its a great resource Type 2 only if you enjoy reading crunchy bits. Type 3-Absolutely this is a very crunchy book.

D.Lords of Darkness type-1 yes, type 2 yes, type 3 $30 is a lot of money to spend on a book with only a few pages of crunchy bits so probably no.

E.DM screen Type-1 yes type 2-no,this is not good reading type 3 probably not.

F.Faiths and Pantheon Type 1 yes Type 2 yes type 3 yes

G. Silver Marches Type 1 yes, type 2 yes ,Type 3 no

I find it interesting that they do mention numbers and I take 40 to mean 40,000.To WoTC this is unexceptable.I'm betting that no D20 company has even come close to a number that high It really makes you think about just what WoTC is looking for since SKR implies that Lords of Darkneww did make a profit just not as much as they wanted.


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## JeffB (Jul 15, 2002)

I suppose I’m the opposite of the buying public. …I am a DM 100%of the time, and I don’t like a majority of crunch stuff in my RPG products. I’m not asking for Metaplots, Poor Novels,  and hold me by the hand adventure hooks, but If I’m buying a CAMPAIGN SETTING supplement, damn If I want it full of rules…I want a finely crafted and interesting setting that allows me room  to be creative …I  pretty much ignore the first 100 pages of the 3E FRCS as it is…Genesai, Drow, and tiefling PC’s……blech.. 

On the other hand, I spend more than the average gamer does per month or year on RPG products: probably in the $100 plus range per month.

So WOTC could make a mint on me if they could get their heads straight.

I’ve bought every FR item except the DM screen. IMO, they are all very good and  a better value  than the core products I’ve owned and/or read; even the “crunchy” MAGofFaerun. LoD was good, but even as a “fluff” book it ‘s boring to read and rather uninspiring. Lot’s of good information, but presented in a very lackluster way. On the other hand I think Silver Marches compares quite favorably with the FRCS. IMO, The Savage Frontier (FR5) was one of, if not THE best FR books ever, and I would go so far to say one of the best D&D books ever. The Silver Marches is a worthy successor to FR5,AFAIC (much better than The North Boxed set). I picked it up on Friday and read it all weekend..


Mild rant

Personally, I don’t think that D&D is any better hands now than when it was in the mid-90’s with TSR. It’s just now that Hasbro wants huge sales numbers of few products, whereas TSR wanted huge numbers of more varied products. There’s been a marked change in the products and attitude of WOTC since it was sold to Hasbro. Some of the best 2E stuff was put out late in it’s life by WOTC. I find only a few things here and there in the 3E line that are as worthy; mainly the FRCS, and the MotP.  And I don’t find this “pro-crunch” stance any kind of revelation; as a DM I’ve always felt that the vast majority of 2E AND 3E products (and 3rd party D20 materials) are geared towards players…more feats, skill applications, spells, PrClasses, blah, blah, blah…Dragon Magazine is just a monthly book of crunch and advertisements for more crunch (personally I hope the new company guts it, and brings it back to the great magazine it was 20 years ago)…Hell, just look at the blurbs on the back of every D20 or WOTC book’…there’s a little sentence about the gist of the book and then something in HUGE PRINT  like

 60 new feats including “Expeditious Nose Pick”, and “Improved Butt Wipe!

100 new Prclasses including the dread Hunter of the Snot, The Really Common Commoner, and the Kings Underwear Drawer Raider”…

40 New spells…ranging from “Mordenkainen’s Toothbrush” and “ Detect Fruit”, to the utterly deadly “ Inflict Splinters On Big Toes”

New Weapons like the “Keen, Holy, Ghost Touch, Flaming, Brownie Bane, Dire Nunchuks  of Infinite Iron Rations”, and the “Gnome, Clip-Fed, Watercooled, Silenced, Selective Fire, 3-9X Scope equipped Repeating Hand-Ballista for your younger Cousin who believes the  WWF and the A Team are realistic”

So many people complain about all this stuff that went on in 2E, and yet welcome it in 3E. Not me..I didn’t  like it in 2E and I don’t like it now. Show me a BOOK OF TOOLS (not a book of completed “projects” which is what most companies produce) and I’ll buy it, but I don’t want cookie-cutter rulebooks. I’d rather have the fluff to give me the ideas, and create the crunch as needed rather than an overpriced book of crunch that I would use only a very small percentage of. 

I think it’s a sad, sad thing if people who like the Realms are shafted because it’s turned into something that non-realms fans want it o become. It’s already happened to Greyhawk.  Putting out a core book with the FR crunch stuff added into it’s content is fine by me, but don’t turn the Realms into core crunch books with just a FR logo. WOTC doesn’t get much money from me as it is…FR is the only line of stuff I buy from them now. I’ve given up on Dragon and Dungeon, Given up on SWD20, Given up on true GH products, , given up on the poor excuses for modules and splatbooks…I’ve passed on everything core since about the time the Psi-Handbook was released barring RttToEE, and MotP.

WOTC needs to look to KenzerCo and SSS to see how to do D&D campaign settings right…There’s plenty of crunch and plenty of fluff to appease either type of fan in Kalamar and Scarred Lands. As well they should look at the old ME campaign stuff from ICE, FASA’s Earthdawn, and Chaosium/Issaries Glorantha. Glorantha and ED came back from the dead and ME is about to be reincarnated as well. There’s a reason they have had such lasting appeal; They provided a good balance between rules and interesting setting. Settings that go one way or the other are doomed to failure: GH being the perfect example.. It’s released..people love it, but want more info..crunch and fluff…the fluff is put in Dragon mag..then Gary leaves, and the setting withers…it’s treated poorly, and what comes out is mostly crunch with little fluff (the bean counters trying to have their way)…it dies…the fans go crazy…it’s revived…this time (FTA) it’s mostly fluff…fans either hate or love it…several fluff supplements come out, and it dies again…the fans go crazy again....third times the charm..good amount of fluff and crunch…a GH revival or sorts comes about…then 3E turns it around to generic crunch, with virtually no fluff…and it’s almost dead again…the only thing sustaining it is LGH… which basically is playing in crunchy tournaments….that will die soon too….

Now look at FR….1E era…Good amount of Fluff and Crunch…even fans who later hated FR remember fondly the 1E FR products…

2E FR…mostly fluff…novels, supplements that read like novels…the crunch is munch…the setting withers among it’s fans…

3E,,,starts out fantastic…most fans like the amount of fluff AND crunch..then the first book is crunch…the second fluff..the third moostly crunch..and now  w/ The SM… mostly fluff….and now WOTC wants ALL crunch….

WOTC needs to use it “hyper-balanced” outlook on 3e RULES for ALL D&D products…balanced between crunch and fluff…too much of one side splits the fan base…If they don’t figure that out, (and they haven’t ..look at the sale of Dragon and Dungeon magazines…) D&D will wither and be sold off  again…(which honestly is probably the best thing that could happen now)

End mild rant…

Sigh…Didn’t mean to get so ranty…I’m just so disappointed with WOTC as a GAMING company anymore, that I had to vent…


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## reiella (Jul 15, 2002)

Ironically enough, I have more crunchy bits from LoD than from MagF or MonF.

The FRCS had alot more fluff than Lords of Darkness (% wise).  The set of Prestige Classes,  the ECL framework, a handful of spells, and a smaller handful of magic items.  Now compare that to 134 pages of Geography, 56 pages from Deities through History and Organizations.  Will admit MagF and MonF were really alot of crunch.

Ironically enough though, I think the real reason there's such a difference between sales.  LoD is an organization book and isn't presented as something easily adaptable to other settings (it really is, it isn't hard to change Zhentarium Skymage to Something not Zhentarium Skymage).  Also it isn't something that is typically meant for 'players eyes', or at least has that perception.


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## seankreynolds (Jul 15, 2002)

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> Sean seems to have forgotten the lessons of the past.  Ryan Dancey has pointed out many times the laws of diminishing returns in regards to settings and settings books.  I also concur with those who point out that supplements are crappy places to tell stories.  Or to be more to the point, almost all the stories I've ever read in supplements tended to be crappy.




I haven't forgotten the lessons of the past. When I say "story" in the context of the FR D&D books, I don't mean 32 pages of "and then this guy did this thing 500 years ago, and as a result he was never heard from again and now his name is forgotten." I mean information on what's going on _now_ in the organizations, settlements, and countries of the world. How can you play in the _world_ of FR if you're not given any information on the _world_?



> I know designers love to write fluffy pieces that show off their prose and original ideas, but I run D&D campaigns.  Not fiction judging sessions.




I agree. 2E FR had a lot of stuff that best belonged in a novel, since it wasn't useful in a game. I'm all about game utility. A book with no game info shouldn't have the D&D logo on it. But a book with no FR info other than a few placeholder names shouldn't have the FR logo on it. (WotC already has a world full of placeholder names ... it's Greyhawk ... and it really isn't even used for that.)



> I also run them in my own game world - mostly because the supplements for world settings are not consistent in meeting my wants and needs for my games.  That means that all the non-crunchy bits might as well be blank space.




Yes, although most setting stuff can be adapted into a home campaign as well (anyone insert Freeport into their game?).

But a lot of the people who buy FR buy it because they want the non-crunchy bits that complement the crunchy bits. A prestige class about wizards with flying mounts is ok, but if you know that those wizards are the elite flying arm of the Zhentarim and are part of a larger organization with a lot of contacts and history, suddenly that prestige class is much less generic. If you're buying an FR book,. you don't want something generic, you want it FR.



> I know SKR hung around rec.frp.dnd back in the day, and he was certainly there in the waning days of TSR, when it seemed like 90% of the people were clamoring for adventures and supplements that didn't try to force a story on them.  We know how that story ended:
> The elves got their way and D&D nearly vanished from the world.




"Forcing a story on someone" is not the same as "providing information on an established world." I'm in favor of the latter, against the former.



> I'm sorry for those who might prefer to write such things, but I haven't been buying their products for decades, and most likely won't in the future.  Give me Magic of Faerun or a MMII over Silver Marches any day.




But without the FR background, Monsters of Faerun and Magic of Faerun would be generic products and wouldn't have the inspiration and feel that they have now.

Is a James Bond movie really a James Bond movie if the only time you see James Bond is in the title?


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## CRG (Jul 15, 2002)

*Shadowrun*

Just want to say...

Plenty of us buy books for the non-crunchy.  The best example of this for me was Shadowrun (first edition, continuing on).  Each of their books had this string of basically chat / message board commentary.  Those books were EXCELLENT and a hoot.  In those little snippets they dropped plot ideas, etc.  Nothing concrete. Nothing set in stone.  Plenty that could be adapted to any game (really).   Plenty of place and people names.

And my opinion, I'm not likely to buy FR for the FR rules (as they are usually way out of balance with whatever actual setting in which I'm playing).  Frankly, I'm a history-guy and that said I find the "history" books a much better read than any of the GD Drizzt novels.  I realize that I'm an aberration, so be it.  I'd rather read the Silver Marches than any story about a dual-wielding guy who has a scimitar named "Twinkle".

Personally, in the last release I thought the omission of Ivid the Undying was also a shame.  I love that kind of crap, even if it is lacking on the hard crunch.

Frankly, do we REALLY need more feats and prestige classes and skills and spells?  Aren't 6000 feats enough?


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## Thanlis (Jul 15, 2002)

Heap Thaumaturgist said:
			
		

> *
> 
> If, say, Silver Munches will generate more sales of Secret Product Z later down the road, a way to explain that to the Bean Counters needs to be created.  If some of these books that have lower sales MUST be produced to keep interest in the hobby at a peak, THAT must be explained to the Bean Counters in a way they'll understand it.  Their context doesn't include playing role playing games ... the more information you can condense and bring to their table, the better you'll be.  If you can say:  "Alright, Silver Munches is what we call a product of 'Interest Maintenance'.  It will sell to a smaller demographic, but that demographic will in turn stimulate another market group to purchase Secret Product Z.  Without Silver Munches, Secret Product Z will bring us an estimated _____ fewer beans.  As you see, by producing Silver Munches we are, in fact, not only bringing in 7000 Beans but stimulating the market to bring an aditional 5000 Extra Beans from Secret Product Z."
> 
> ...




This is so much a better explanation of the right approach than anything I wrote. It's about the kind of tactic I would use, but I couldn't have explained it half as well. Thank you.


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## Nightfall (Jul 15, 2002)

Randolph Carter said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Wouldn't you rather introduce them to my FR campaign where we replaced the wimpy 3E Tempus with Vashanka of Thieves World infamy?
> 
> ...




Nah. Vashanka is okay but I like Tempus' weapon of choice.


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## Nightfall (Jul 15, 2002)

Eridanis said:
			
		

> *Shall we start taking bets on how much longer D&D will remain a Hasbro imprint? I say in two years, Clark (Necromancer Games) or Monte (Malhovoc) or Chris Pramas (Green Ronin) will be the new Geek-in-Chief of our favorite game. Just hypothesizing... *




Mmm well no offense to my favorite guy, Clark, but I think they'll be a great nashing of teeth over that. Perhaps Chris..but who can say?


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## Psion (Jul 15, 2002)

Hmmm...

I too only bought the said crunchy products. So obviously, the bean counters figures are reflective of my reality at least.

On one hand, I hate to see the big-business-ifying of D&D.

OTOH, I just think this is par for the course. Take a look at the recent "favorite setting poll". The favorite setting was Planescape (despite the rabid KoK fans' best efforts to rally their troops...)

Yet Planescape was dropped as a line a few years ago.

So now D&D has a boss that is even _more_ concerned about the bottom line over quality. All I can say to these FR fans out there if it goes belly up is: welcome to the club, but you'll understand if I don't feel too bad for you.

Who knows. Maybe a wash-out brought on by short sighted micro-management would do the line some good. If all signs of spark and creativity are dropped from the line, and the market saturates on crunchiness, sales will go down for the line overall. And Hasborg might become ambivalent enough about the line that they would be willing to sell of the RPG properties to some rich gamer (yeah, probably that one... unless I win the lottery!  ). And then, it can be brought back to life.

Or, it can die in disdain, as the smaller and more independant games find some new fad that pulls customers away from an increasingly unappealing line.


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## Swack-Iron (Jul 15, 2002)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> *Storytelling is what novels are for. Storytelling is what short stories in dragon magazine are for. Storytelling is not what supplements are for. Supplements are for crunchy-bits. Supplements are not the best forum to tell stories.  In fact, I think supplements are a rotten forum to tell stories.
> 
> And I will voice that opinion loudly, with my wallet.  Others will as well. *




Then I ask, have you actually looked at Lords of Darkness and Silver Marches? Neither of these books have much hard-core crunchiness. But neither of them have any stories in them, either. These are not prosaic White Wolf products. These are excellent fact-filled supplements with lots of useful Realms information in them. I repeat: no stories.

I realize, however, that you won't be buying them. Probably because you're not running a game set in the Realms. And that's OK! The content of these books is not useful to non-Realms DMs unless they want to file the serial numbers off the places and organizations for use in their own campaign settings.

I *am* running a game in the Realms, and I *need* books like Lords of Darkness and Silver Marches. I need to know detailed information about how the Church of Shar is organized, how the Zhentarim conduct business, and how the Cult of the Dragon gets any money. My players are tromping up the slopes of the Nether Mountains right now, and I already know that there will be a tangible change in the quality of the game I run between last session and the next session because I have Silver Marches.

I'm voting with my wallet, too. I don't need 30th level characters this month, I need weather tables for Sundabar. I skipped the Epic Level Handbook, and I bought Silver Marches. And I'm very much looking forward to more quality Forgotten Realms products.


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## Wolfen Priest (Jul 15, 2002)

I'm just wondering how well Manual of the Planes sold (... I'm guessing it sold well).  

Because if the WotC bean-counters consider _that_ book to be "crunchy," they really have their heads up their donut cores.

I have yet to use the actual "crunchy" rules of that book.  It was all fluff.  Maybe it was re-hashed fluff, but _*it was still fluff!!!*_

Therefore, maybe _sometimes_, fluff does actually sell well.  Granted, that may not apply directly to campaign-specific material like FR (afterall I didn't even buy the FRCS, but that was because of the broken rules; if it had more fluff, I would've been more likely to buy it, but I have no interest in broken rules).

I think all of this nonsense will probably clear the way for more sales of 3rd party campaign material.  Which is probably good.


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## mearls (Jul 15, 2002)

dagger said:
			
		

> *I was laughing while reading that news update on the front page...but it was very interesting. *




I cringed.

Think about it for a moment.

The higher-ups want books with more crunchy parts than world development.

At the same time, they're ponying up $160,000 in pay outs, plus God knows how many man hours of work, to find a product that promises precisely the world development material they don't want to publish.


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## Psion (Jul 15, 2002)

You bring up a good point wolfen priest, and expose what I think is a false dichotomy people are creating: crunchy versus fluff.

To me, fluff is stories, world specific stuff, etc.

There is sort of an in between state -- inspriational material. Adaptable fluff, if you will.

I find books like Lords of Darkness useless for my purpose despite the fact it has crunchy bits -- it is painfully world specific.

But MotP gives you adaptable little ideas that you can attach to any campaign. It has dozens of different sample cosmologies, and most of the planes you could extract and use with specific cosmologies.

People attribute the popularity of FRCS to its crunchy bits. But if you think about it, only a third or so of this book is very crunchy. But there were many inspirational ideas in the rest of the book, the kind that are more portable than the typically much more detailed setting books like Lords of Darkness or Silver Marches.


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## Kitsune (Jul 15, 2002)

The value of fluff is in the eye of the beholder.  Anyone playing in the Realms should be leaping for those books, since those details are what make the Realms a fully detailed fantasy world.  For anyone not playing in the Realms, however, it's a waste of money.

Me?  Bring back Planescape and Spelljammer and I'll buy every single fluff book that's cranked out for them.  The Realms just don't interest me, however.


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## Warchild (Jul 15, 2002)

Psion said:
			
		

> *There is sort of an in between state -- inspriational material. Adaptable fluff, if you will. *




I think your on target there, Psion. 
The books i value the most do just that, ex: MOTP, Occult Lore, Legions of Hell (mostly crunch, but the fluff thats in LOH is quite inspirational -adventure wise-and useful). Like many, i haven't even used a ton of the crunch from the MOTP book (just haven't had the need/opportunity just yet), but its eye-opening quality of "fluff" is what has me snared. I was never much of a planar travel type of player/DM and rarely used such material in my games. After getting MOTP, i have to try hard to not let it's influence creep into everything i do. Thats a supplement!!



			
				Psion said:
			
		

> *I find books like Lords of Darkness useless for my purpose despite the fact it has crunchy bits -- it is painfully world specific.*




My problem for such products is a little different. I've been playing FR for so many years, there is little i haven't explored. Books like this trample over the things we have already done. Although Lords of Darkness give you a mechanics conversion for the bad guys of the realms, so it has a little more value to me than actually the Silver Marches (though i didn't/won't buy either), an area with which we have already touched many times ourselves (ie my group and players) in campaigns over the years. I really don't need the area expanded, because we have already done it and don't want to change what we have done over the years. Thats a symptom of a setting that has been around a long time. Although i ended up having the same problem with Scarred Lands. I had the Gazetteer long before the source books began coming out for it. So by the time they did, i had already created much of the setting myself out of necessity and wasn't interested in material that was likely to override what i had already done. Although no matter how much it differed from my own version, Hollowfaust was damn cool. 
I don't know how common my situation is, though. Everyone in my group has 15-20+ years(one has 10, but it is a jam-packed 10 years)  of gaming experience. Even setting rulebooks tend to get chopped up by whoever in the group is running at the time. I/we judge a book by its QUALITY of fluff (not mentioned much in this thread, but all fluff is not talented fluff) and ease of ajustibility, because after so long a period of gaming we already know what we are doing and/or looking for. We just look to add books that will help us along and provide the ocassional spark.


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## Zulkir (Jul 15, 2002)

TeaBee said:
			
		

> *Psst... WotC D&D people...
> 
> Make smaller books. Charge propotionaly the same as one bigger book. Less profit (production costs)... but more copies sold! *




Psst... hey buddy. Hate to break it to you but larger books sell more copies then smaller books (by alot). Smaller books means less copies sold, higher production costs lower revenue and lower and lower profits both!

AV


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## ColonelHardisson (Jul 15, 2002)

Wolfen Priest said:
			
		

> *I'm just wondering how well Manual of the Planes sold (... I'm guessing it sold well).
> 
> Because if the WotC bean-counters consider that book to be "crunchy," they really have their heads up their donut cores.
> 
> ...




As a big fan of Manual of the Planes, I have to disagree with your assessment of the book. It actually had a lot of "crunchy" stuff, and gave you the tools to create more. I'll agree that it had a lot of "fluff," so to speak, but much of that "fluff" demonstrated how the "crunchy" bits could work. I think I'll start a thread on the sheer potential of Manual of the Planes sometime soon.

But, your overall point is interesting. Would a book like MotP make the cut now in the eyes of the bean counters? MotP is a book that can appear to be "fluff"- laden at first glance. Would the FRCS book make the cut? It's starting to appear that such books wouldn't in the current climate.


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## ColonelHardisson (Jul 15, 2002)

Zulkir said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Psst... hey buddy. Hate to break it to you but larger books sell more copies then smaller books (by alot). Smaller books means less copies sold, higher production costs lower revenue and lower and lower profits both!
> 
> AV *




Hey Anthony, I know the setting contest is all-consuming right now, but I was wondering if you could tell about the SRD approval process. That is, how soon and often can we expect more material to be added to it? I know you're busy, but I thought I'd ask.


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## Kid Charlemagne (Jul 15, 2002)

seankreynolds said:
			
		

> *
> I agree. 2E FR had a lot of stuff that best belonged in a novel, since it wasn't useful in a game. I'm all about game utility. A book with no game info shouldn't have the D&D logo on it. But a book with no FR info other than a few placeholder names shouldn't have the FR logo on it. (WotC already has a world full of placeholder names ... it's Greyhawk ... and it really isn't even used for that.)
> *




It's very possible I'm selling the recent 3e FR stuff short.  However, I'll probably only find out if someone in my circle of gaming friends buys some of it, and I happen to look through it.  That's around 15 gamers, some of whom buy a lot of stuff - and I don't think more than 1 or 2 will buy it.  As opposed to probably 7-8 ELH, 8-10 DD&DG, etc.  So it will be tough to break out of that mold.  I have a limited gaming dollar to spend, and it's going to stuff that I _know_ I'll use.

OTOH, I was a fan of the VanRichten guides - although mostly for the crunchy parts allowing me to customize my undead and whatnot.  So I'll put up with some fluff to get at the good bits.


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## Zappo (Jul 15, 2002)

Zulkir said:
			
		

> *Psst... hey buddy. Hate to break it to you but larger books sell more copies then smaller books (by alot). Smaller books means less copies sold, higher production costs lower revenue and lower and lower profits both!
> 
> AV *



I think he was referring to beancounters stating that their evil overlords wanted to see big numbers of copies sold even more than they wanted to see big profits.

So, dividing a 200 pages book which would sell 10000 copies in four 50 pages books which sell 8000 copies each totals up to 32000 copies.

The evil overlords see a lot of copies and are happy, even though they are actually losing beans.

The whole suggestion was just a joke, I reckon, though.


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## Zulkir (Jul 15, 2002)

*Bean counters*

Folks,

I would like to stand up here for a moment and let everyone know that when you talk about bean counters who don't know anything about gaming or the industry or don't care about consumers you are talking about me (a guy who has been gaming since High School, in the industry for six years and posts regularly to this board).

So please, have a heart, try not to call me any names that might actually hurt to much. Remember I have an actual name (Anthony Valterra), I go to cons so you can actually shake my hand (I'll be at GenCon), I have an e-mail address (zulkir@wizards.com - yeah, and I really know nothing about the Realms  ).

Now about this pastry nonsense. I want to ask this simple question: You are in charge of a recipe business. You are informed that your recipe books must make a certain profit margin. You have two main lines we'll call them Core Donuts and Forgotten Rum. CD sells alot better than FR. You need to increase your margins. 
1) You can lay off some elves and get the remaining elves to work harder. (lower your costs keep revenue the same)
2) You can increase your prices and piss off your Gnome customers. (keep costs the same, raise revenue - hopefully unless the Gnomes rebel)
3) You can cancel the FR line, lay off some elves take the revenue hit but make your margins. (lower revenue but lower costs more)
4) Or (and this is apparently the evil choice) you can try to find a way to make your FR line sell better. (raise revenue without raising prices and keep costs the same).

Us evil bean counters or so evil that we work our asses off trying to make the Gnomes happy and keep the Elves alive (how is that for diabolical!)

AV


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## reiella (Jul 15, 2002)

One question here now.

What is believed to be 'Crunchy' bits?  Rules/Mechanics Content?  Stuff like PrCs, magic items, races, feats, ECL?

And what is fluff?  The history, the story, NPCs, maps?

Are rules for 'odd' habitations crunch or fluff?  Stuff like the special traits of planes?

Just curious now, since I'm just at a loss of how the FRCS could be seen as high crunch.


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## ColonelHardisson (Jul 15, 2002)

Actually, Anthony, it never occurred to me that you would think of yourself as a bean-counter, in the context of the story. I don't think of you as one. My impression was that it involved people from Hasbro. That's how I read it.

How about my SRD question above?


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## The Sigil (Jul 15, 2002)

Thanlis said:
			
		

> Is it wrong to ask your designers to put in more stuff that people want to buy? Is Wizards obligated to satisfy 40 people, or is it better when they satisfy 100 people? Should they discard those 60 people?
> 
> Taking a step back from that argument, I think it's interesting that the argument centered around crunch. There were a lot of game stats in Lords of Darkness... but I didn't think it was as good as FRCS, when you got right down to it. Silver Marches looks a) more similar to the bulk of FRCS and b) better written.



And here, even we fall into the same mindset that dooms the bean-counters.

The bean counters know that there are people out there who have appetites.  If you give them something they want to eat, they pay you.  If they pay you, you make money.

"Now," says the bean counter to himself, "should we discard those 60 people?  After all 100 people will buy this, but only 40 will buy that.  We would be foolish to ignore the 60 people that WOULDN'T buy that."

The problem is that the bean counter assumes there are only 100 people.  It doesn't dawn on him that he can make more money satisfying the 140 appetites than he can satisfying 100.  But that's because he thinks that everyone belongs in one of two market segments "those with appetites" and "those without."  He doesn't realize that "those with appetites" includes the sub-segments "those with appetites for crunch" and "those with appetites for cream."  So without realizing it, he forgets that there is a group he is not trying to reach.  The elves, who are so busy taking care of the trees that they can't get on top of them to see the forest, don't have the right argument to begin with... they think that "those with appetites for crunch" is the entire market of "those with appetites" - they know that there must be some with appetites for cream, so they just segment the market further into "those with appetites for crunch and cream" and "those with appetites for just crunch."

Then he wonders why he's out of a job when a smart dwarf comes in - one who looks out from the top of his mountain over the forest and sees things.  One who takes the time to talk to those with appetites and finds out what they like and realizes, "hey, there aren't two types of people with appetites, there are three - those with appetites for just crunch, those who like just cream, and those who like both!"  In fact, he realizes it's not even that simple - some like lots of cream but still want some crunch, some want mostly crunch but still with a little cream.  Finally he realizes, "I can't put out the same thing and expect everyone to like it - I need lots of different recipes!"  So he gets all of his clansmen together and they create a bakery conglomerate, UTHER-DEE-TWENTY-PUBLISHERS.  

The dwarf and his clan create all sorts of pastries - some with a little crunch, some with a lot of crunch.  Some with cream, some without.  They appeal to all sorts of groups.  Now some of these pastries don't sell as well as others, but the dwarves aren't burdened by the unrealistic expectations of bean counters.

Pretty soon, the bean counters are out of a job and the dwarven conglomerate has the fans of crunch and cream happy.  Some people like certain styles and mixes of crunch/cream, and so some dwarven pastries sell more than others, but on the whole, EVERYBODY can find something that they like.  And since the dwarves are bound together not by a love of money but more by a love of crafting the pastries, they are able to ignore the bean counters when they tell the dwarves they SHOULD be making more money.  And the dwarves - and those who had appetites - all lived happily ever after.

Afterword:  After the success of their pastry line, the dwarves look to move into peanut butter - until they realize that peanut butter ALREADY offers both crunchy and creamy varieties because the peanut butter execs hired smarter bean counters.

--The Sigil

Seriously, I think the market is not 100 people and selling to 40 people neglects the "other 60."  I think that the market looks more like "80 people who like it mostly crunchy" and "20 people who love both crunchy and creamy" and "20 people who prefer much creamy with a little crunchy" - IOW, it's closer to 120 people - instead of 100 - something the bean counters are missing because in choosing to go "all crunch" they miss the group that doesn't really like crunch


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## ColonelHardisson (Jul 15, 2002)

reiella said:
			
		

> *One question here now.
> 
> What is believed to be 'Crunchy' bits?  Rules/Mechanics Content?  Stuff like PrCs, magic items, races, feats, ECL?
> 
> ...




I don't think it would be considered high-crunch. I'd guess most would see it as more on the fluff side of the equation.


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## Warchild (Jul 15, 2002)

Well, i don't subscribe to the "Evil" beancounter theory myself. If watching your margins makes you evil, Anthony, then all of us who watch our gaming budgits, or complain we can't afford everything we want.... are just as evil. So if your evil, you have plenty of company.


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## Samnell (Jul 15, 2002)

*Re: Bean counters*



			
				Zulkir said:
			
		

> 4) Or (and this is apparently the evil choice) you can try to find a way to make your FR line sell better. (raise revenue without raising prices and keep costs the same).




If that involves more books like Magic of Faerun, I'm a happy camper.


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## Heap Thaumaturgist (Jul 15, 2002)

*Re: Bean counters*



			
				Zulkir said:
			
		

> *
> Us evil bean counters or so evil that we work our asses off trying to make the Gnomes happy and keep the Elves alive (how is that for diabolical!)
> 
> AV *




Kill the Bean Counters!!  Flay their corpses!  Raze their homes, sell their daughters!!  ... oh ... wait.

Well, back in my post I did say I had no idea how the internal workings of WotC were set up.

Now, as I said, if each Elf Product has to meet a certain amount of profit, and a certain type of product can never make that profit, then yea, cut that product.   Now, if the guys above you are having unrealistic expectation of profits, then a dialogue needs to be initiated with them to rework what they're looking for from the line.  If looking for X Profit from -every- product means cutting out something that will lead to the continued viability of the line, that needs to be talked about too.

If all Fluff never sells enough to make a profit and doesn't add to profits later, then yea, don't produce all Fluff.  

  Just a tip of the hat to the Evil Bean Counters, they're people too.

Now, back to sacking their temples and defiling their altars.

--HT


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## CRG (Jul 15, 2002)

Anthony...

No reflection on you personally.  I think by now you must know that most of us are worse than a bunch of gossiping hens.

That said....

Business is not making the dough which the higher-ups want.

More dough is required.

Problem is, from the analogy being discussed, the only option for making the FR line sell better is to get rid of story and make more crunch.

Now, none of us live in a world of single-metrics.  Why does a FR product sell?  Is it just crunch vs non-crunch?  No.  There are probably a dozen major factors that go into it.  However, if simplified to the level of crunch vs. non-crunch and as long as that is the topic then I have to think that (a) I don't agree with the apparrent and allegorical decision and (b) there may be no good way to make the ultimate bosses-of-bosses happy.

Since you're reading...are there any other thoughts you can share about what MAY be coming to make FR or other products sell better that are not simply crunch v non-crunch?


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## JeffB (Jul 15, 2002)

<b>4) Or (and this is apparently the evil choice) you can try to find a way to make your FR line sell better. (raise revenue without raising prices and keep costs the same).
</b>

Anthony,

If in order to make the FR line sell better, WOTC strips away the setting info and instead put out books of "stats" with FR names so that non-FR fans will buy them to steal the crunchy stuff (and also alienate the Fans who supported it through the years) then perhaps evil is not the correct term, but it's pretty shameful, IMO.


FR has always been the most profitable D&D Campaign Setting, correct? (both 1/2/3E) Then are you saying FR is not profitable? or that it's not profitable enough to satisfy the Execs at Hasbro, but profitable enough to "exist" as WOTC line?

In either case... then sell it..let someone else do it...If people want splatbooks, then they have got WOTC's "Core" as well as several D20 companies to choose from....

Hey WOTC is a business..do what ya gotta do..I'm voting with my wallet...I buy almost nothing from WOTC proper these days....though I used to buy lots of WOTC stuff...3E Core, FR, WoT, SW, etc...I spend quite a bit with other D20 manufacturers, on old D&D product as well as non-D20 game stuff...WOTC has basically alienated me as it is with their business model..though I was a great supporter of the company pre-3E and up till about 2001 started up...sigh....

I realize you cannot please everyone and that business is business...but when you ("general you" not AV specifically) start disregarding the gamers who put you there in the first place (or in this case totally disregard brand identity) for bottom line profits, well.....hmm...it reminds me of someone named Williams....


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## Balsamic Dragon (Jul 15, 2002)

*Question for Anthony:*

Are the general opinions on this board at all representative of what WOTC believes the average D&D consumer feels?  Do you and other WOTC employees believe that our feedback is useful to your business?

If so, then despite the stupid metaphor and unkind labelling, rants like this are helpful because they get people riled up and those people then post their opinions on what they want to buy (or will not buy).  

See, I get the sense that most of the people on this board (which is somewhat paradoxical), feel that their opinions are in the minority.  That's probably because we are so used to being minority consumers in the first place (being gamers and all).  So a lot of the fuss that gets stirred up from time to time is because we feel like we need to yell and scream so that we will be counted and our opinions will matter.  Or maybe we sometimes feel like our opinions will never matter and we just want to yell and scream to relieve stress 

We all know who wrote the initial rant and why and the fact that it was a rant.  However, it points out two valuable pieces of information:

First, we, as D&D gamers, have an unprecidented amount of feedback and contact with the industry that supports our hobby.

Second, we have very little trust that this industry will listen to us and produce products that we like, despite proof time and again that they can and want to and will.  

Our biggest fear is that we are being treated by WOTC like we are not important.  And our biggest failing is that we wrongly assume that WOTC is stupid and doesn't care about its customers.

Balsamic Dragon


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## Renshai (Jul 15, 2002)

Warchild,
I felt the exact same way about Silver Marches that you do. However, I went ahead and bought the product. I don't know why I did.. when I already had Waterdeep and the North, The Savage Frontier, Volo's Guide to the North, and The North boxed set.  I was expecting the same reshash of all that material with the 3E stamp on it... and well, I was wrong. 

Silver Marches offers alot more than a rehash of material. The current state of the Silver Marches (the country not the book) offers a so many plot hooks I had to stop reading and start writing them down. For those of you who like FR Fluff (history and plot tied to to historical content) the book is great. The very nature of the Silver Marches council offers so much to do with a political campaign I don't know where to start.   

Sure we do see some of the same material, but I thought it was well done and basically shed some new light on an area that I hadn't considered running in again for a long time... As it stands I'm creating an adventure in the Reaching Woods that will yeild a portal to the ruins of Earlann... so I can get my PCs to the Silver Marches.   You might want to flip through it at your LGS... it might surprise you 

Cheers,
Ren


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## Renshai (Jul 15, 2002)

> People attribute the popularity of FRCS to its crunchy bits. But if you think about it, only a third or so of this book is very crunchy. But there were many inspirational ideas in the rest of the book, the kind that are more portable than the typically much more detailed setting books like Lords of Darkness or Silver Marches.




Dead on Psion. (imo)

I guess I could fall squarely in that category, in fact I'd say that most FR Dungeon Masters that played through the 2E years could as well.  As someone who owns pretty much all of the FR Accessories the regional information wasn't all the important. The prestige classes, feats, and spells were the most useful, and pretty much continues to be the most useful info in Magic of Faerun and Lords of Darkness.  But that is only because I already have a great deal of that FR information.

The newly added information (fluff) was really good though, imo. The City of Shade, the near fall of Cormyr, the expansionism of the Red Wizards... the current state of the Drow attack on the Dales... these all gave me tons of ideas too...  I think the FRCS was a good balance of fluff vs crunch.. (i hate those terms.. )  It is harder to retain that balance in a book that isn't as large as the FRCS.  

I guess since books like Silver Marches target only FR DMS then the market mmust be smaller than a generic book.... but you just can't support a setting without expanding on the setting itself, so I guess WoTC is in sort of a bind in that area. 

I wonder if marketing and selling a campaign setting is a viable option as far as sales go? I'd hate to think that, but it sounds like this is what SKR is hinting at. 

Another interesting point...  At Gen Con 2000 Anthony Valterra mentioned that WotC would be creating one shot game settings that would never get more than one or two books supporting them before being turned over to the players and the WotC web for support. Could this be a viable option for producing campaign settings? It would certainly give us a greater number of settings to choose from don't you think?  Imagine if all we saw for the Realms was the FRCS plus Magic of Faerun and all the manpower  that was spent creating Lords of Darkness, Silver Marches, and City of the Spider Queen went into producing a one shot campaign setting in a book that resembled the FRCS? We might get some really quality settings...

Anyway... I'm rambling now...

Ren


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## Gizzard (Jul 15, 2002)

My problem with the mythical bean story is that the bean-race in it is very shortsighted.  They look at 2 product lines and find the first to be more successful than the second.  And they immediately begin tinkering with the second product line trying to make it just as successful as the first.  

But their tinkering seems crude and ham-handed.  "Make product two more like product one."  The elves are puzzled and frustrated.  "So our long term strategy is to de-diversify our product offerings?"  (Because, even as bean-people believe that they understand the world of elves; elves also believe they understand the bean world.)

Even though I couldnt care less about Forgotten Rums, I sympathize with the elves.


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## Zulkir (Jul 15, 2002)

The Sigil said:
			
		

> *
> Seriously, I think the market is not 100 people and selling to 40 people neglects the "other 60."  I think that the market looks more like "80 people who like it mostly crunchy" and "20 people who love both crunchy and creamy" and "20 people who prefer much creamy with a little crunchy" - IOW, it's closer to 120 people - instead of 100 - something the bean counters are missing because in choosing to go "all crunch" they miss the group that doesn't really like crunch *




Alright lets assume you are correct. What products do you put out?

A) Three products 1) All crunch 2) All cream 3) a mix

Result: You make your margin on product 1, you fail to make your margin on 2 and 3. Why? Because those who like crunch will buy product #1 but not 2 (sales 80 units). Those who like 2 will buy 2 but not 1 or 3 (sales 20 units you lost money - your revenue is low and your costs high due to low print runs). Product number 3 will do okay (sales 55 units you sold 20 to the mix crowd but you picked up 10 from cream and 25 from crunch - you didn't make your margins but you didn't lose money).  Result you didn't make your margins for the year - you  lose your job and maybe a few Elves do to.

B) One product all crunch. 

Congratulations you made your margins (90 units sold - all of the crunch and half of the mixed - they had no other product to buy). Unfortunately, you must lay off 1/3 of your elves.

C) Two products 1) All crunch 2) All cream

All crunch (80 units - makes it margins),  all cream (20 units loses money). Didn't make margins, lose job, fire Elves.

D) Two products 1) All crunch 2) mixed

Crunch (80 units makes its margins), mixed (45 units 20 from mixed 25 from crunch - doesn't make its margins but turns a profit). Congratualtions! You made your margins (the mixed didn't pull your numbers down low enough) and you didn't lay off any Elves!

Fortunately you invented a thing called the d20 license which allows other companies to make some of those low margin products you can't so they step in and make heavy cream products to make those customers happy. You are happy that they are happy. You are happy that your elves have jobs. You are happy you have a job. You are unhappy about the stock market. But thems the breaks.

AV


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## Blacksad (Jul 15, 2002)

I would like to know what will happens  if the elves do

E) *Two* products all crunch

???


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## JeffB (Jul 15, 2002)

Oh it definitely makes business sense Anthony...I'll never argue that...I deal with this kind of stuff on a daily basis in both my main hobby,and my job...

That being said..what about those of us who want Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms cream?  Because the OGL doesn't apply..we are screwed more or less..we either take the crunch or  move on...

You say FR and GH cream don't sell..so you make crunch......eventually you won't be able to discern between GH crunch and FR crunch because crunch does not have any flavor...

On the other hand..each batch of cream has a different taste.some slight, some more pronounced...

Since you don't plan on making cream, and all the crunch is basically the same, why not sell off your cows?..cows can't make crunch, only cream...And since WOTC only wants to sell crunch..It seems like perfect business sense to me...Why keep the cream, and let it spoil in the corner? 

Brand Identity...

Problem is now..you don't have the brand identity.....and so you manage to piss off all the folks who would have liked crunch and cream, or a few crunchy and one or two cream..and you'll never sell to those who want cream because there is none....

Hey get rid of the cream..sell crunch...that's your pergoative

but...

Eventually  fans will realize that when you peddle crunch using the previous good reputation of the cream and don't deliver any of said cream, your brand identity is worthless.....it's crunch with a different logo..no different than company a, b, or c's crunch...and then your profit margins fall flat again...

You can't have FR crunch without the Cream..the two are symbiotic..same with Middle Earth or Glorantha or Barsaive...the cream is what makes the crunch taste good.....

JeffB


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## Heap Thaumaturgist (Jul 15, 2002)

As I said toward the end of one of my posts, we The Gnomes are the people truly in control of what is going on.  End of the run, we decide what gets sold.

It's not really sad if over 1/2 the posts on this board are from people saying:  "Dude, Fluff sucks, I hate WotC, I hate FR Fluff, I'm never buying any Fluff of theirs, give me Crunch or give me death!"

Well, then, is it really such a huge shock that they can't make Fluff?  So, if you really like Fluff, go forth and turn some heads.  We vote with our wallets.  If you can convince some DMs out there to run the Realms or to buy Silver Marches ... then they will have more sales and they can continue selling things like that.

--HT


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## Zappo (Jul 15, 2002)

Blacksad said:
			
		

> *I would like to know what will happens  if the elves do
> 
> E) Two products all crunch
> 
> ??? *



Same as B), I suppose.


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## Mistwell (Jul 15, 2002)

Spove said:
			
		

> *I think the bean counters should do a case study on the Harley-Davidson AMF years.
> 
> AMF bought HD and took a quality based product and drove it into the ground by focusing only on the bottom line. What turned HD around in the end? Why it was HD execs buying HD back from AMF. And once again focusing on quality.
> 
> Anybody want to go in halves-ies on WOTC?  *




Umm, didn't the government also bail them out at one point?


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## Gizzard (Jul 15, 2002)

> Result: You make your margin on product 1, you fail to 
> make your margin on 2 and 3 [...] you lose your job 
> and maybe a few Elves do to.

I follow all this logic, but in Seans bean world parable he pointed out that:

_"But," the elves protested, "forty books still a respectable number! Why, only a few years ago, we were lucky to sell 10 copies of one of our books. Forty books is wonderful!" _ 

It seems to me that Hasbro is having trouble explaining to its elves, ex-elves and the public why it margins are what they are.  Which leads into this...

> Fortunately you invented a thing called the d20 license 
> which allows other companies to make some of those 
> low margin products you can't ...

It sounds like the elves in the story were a bit surprised when 40 books was a "low margin" product under Hasbro when a few years before it would have been magnificent.   

And this is going to be the interesting thing to watch - if Hasbro only wants to make 70-100 unit products, what will its annual catalog look like in 2 years?   Is this goal sustainable?  My guess is that it is not and they will have to readjust their strategy (or sell off WotC to someone who is willing to take the profits on a 40 unit run.)


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## CRG (Jul 15, 2002)

> Fortunately you invented a thing called the d20 license which allows other companies to make some of those low margin products you can't so they step in and make heavy cream products to make those customers happy. You are happy that they are happy. You are happy that your elves have jobs. You are happy you have a job. You are unhappy about the stock market. But thems the breaks.




So....

Any chance of a Rum license on the way out to a smaller company that CAN make margins on cream?


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## ColonelHardisson (Jul 15, 2002)

Anthony - regarding the SRD question I asked a page or so back...?


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## Sinistar (Jul 16, 2002)

First off, thanks Anthony for replying to this thread. You have been really cool about this.

I am a big fan of FR. but I have bought just about every book that WOTC has put out for 3E because I am a greedy little gnome. That said, I beileve that the setting is more important than the rules. The Guild mage prestige class was presented in both Tome and Blood and in the MoF. I read T&B first and was not interested in the prestige class at all. Why? because it was a generic guild mage. Whee. That is like a generic mage. Um, he is cool because of... stuff. But with MoF it was a guild mage of Waterdeep.

Suddenly the class was worth looking at. Why? because I know a little something about Waterdeep. I have a mage there in a game I run. Maybe it could be worth looking into. 

I buy a ton of gaming material every month. Far more than I will ever use, but the one thing I skip every time is the book of prestige classes and feats. Why? without the bit of fluff that makes it useful, they are just pages of stats. I could read a statistics book for that. 

The only reason I find this at all odd is that I thought that "crunch" books had their day already. Now that the ELH is out, what other rules can you print? I think in just the WOTC core books there are too many flavorless Prestige Classes, too many wacky feats for me to buy another. And this is not counting what the other guys have put out. I think there will always be a market for new spells and possibly for new equipment. But how many of those can you make? 

I understand that the real world always keeps us from making what we want to make, but I am very surprised on this angle. I would have thought it would be completely reversed. That the crunch books have had their day and all WOTC has left to print are books of fluff. (just to continue with the analogy) But I guess I was mistaken...


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## Orcus (Jul 16, 2002)

The whole problem is that you are using elves. Come on, people open your eyes! Elves are not cost effective.

Thats why we at Necromancer Games employ only undead. Mindless servants. Evil minions. Call them what you will. But the bottom line is this: Low pay. No breaks. No need for a health plan (though the zombies could use a dental). Just the occasional evil wizard to create undead generating items (but i hear they are unionizing). Sure, you get a bone in the shrink wrap every now and then, but what the heck! People think it is a freebie! And if you dont make your margin, just end the summoning on a few of the skeletons. Staff reductions without the moral dilemma!

Death to elves! Hey, undead elves...now that has some promise. If any "elves" want to come work with us "evil wizards" maybe we could "defeat" all the "bean counters".

Clark

PS--as for buying D&D, no thanks. I'll just take the Open Game Content, rename it Dragons & Dungeons, and throw more cool 1E feel back in the rules and republish it. License agreements? Puhleeeez. And while I am dreaming I would find Dave Trampier and drag him out of hiding to do the interior art!


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## seankreynolds (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Bean counters*



			
				Zulkir said:
			
		

> Now about this pastry nonsense. I want to ask this simple question: You are in charge of a recipe business. You are informed that your recipe books must make a certain profit margin.




Are you saying that Lords of Rumness, a 192-page book that sells for 30 beans, doesn't make its profit margin? Despite the fact that it sold at least 4x as many copies as any other book in the Rums line a few years ago?

If a Forgotten Rums book that sells 40 copies isn't a success, then the Bean-Counters need to fix what their definition of success is. There are a hundred Bee Honey companies out there that would love to sell 40 copies of their books.



> You have two main lines we'll call them Core Donuts and Forgotten Rum. CD sells alot better than FR.




A statement which says that FR _does_ sell. Are you saying that the FR books aren't making their profit margin? That certainly is news ... books that go to reprint and yet aren't making a profit, very strange. Perhaps someone like the evil troll Feather-Line is involved somewhere? >



> You need to increase your margins.




Which implies that your margins are not satisfactory. Yet (in the story) Magic of Fae Rum sold 70% as many copies as the FRCS. Are those not satisfactory numbers? Are not the wicked Haze Brothers demanding ridiculous numbers of beans from the Wizards of the Toast, despite that the Wizards are earning plenty of beans, moreso than other mages that work for the Haze Brothers (in fact, especially compared to the other mages under the Haze Brothers who seem to be dumping beans into the sewer rather than earning them)?



> 1) You can lay off some elves and get the remaining elves to work harder. (lower your costs keep revenue the same)




20 elves laid off in 2 years, yep.



> 2) You can increase your prices and piss off your Gnome customers. (keep costs the same, raise revenue - hopefully unless the Gnomes rebel)




Been there, done that. Aren't the Wizards making books now that cost _45_ beans, because they know they will sell at those prices?



> 3) You can cancel the FR line, lay off some elves take the revenue hit but make your margins. (lower revenue but lower costs more)




So, by canceling the books that _are_ selling (and hitting their margins), you're _making_ your margins? By not making books that make money, you end up making money? Ah, the madness of Bean-Counters.... 



> 4) Or (and this is apparently the evil choice) you can try to find a way to make your FR line sell better. (raise revenue without raising prices and keep costs the same).




By turning it into something that _isn't_ FR. That's not a solution. If the result of this push is that you have the book Tomb and Brood with an FR logo on it, that doesn't make it an FR book, and the FR fans are going to figure that out in about 25 seconds.


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## Orcus (Jul 16, 2002)

...The only thing about undead minions is that the incorporeal ones arent worth a damn. Keep that in mind.

Clark


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## seankreynolds (Jul 16, 2002)

Renshai said:
			
		

> *Another interesting point...  At Gen Con 2000 Anthony Valterra mentioned that WotC would be creating one shot game settings that would never get more than one or two books supporting them before being turned over to the players and the WotC web for support. Could this be a viable option for producing campaign settings?*



*

If WotC's recent history (in the past year) in handling new game settings is any indicator, no.*


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## Blacksad (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Re: Bean counters*



			
				seankreynolds said:
			
		

> *
> By turning it into something that _isn't_ FR. *




I would like to know, what's an FR book?

In my mind, Magic of Faerun is a spell and magic item book with the FR logo on it, and the flavor of FR is an inspiration for the spell, item and prestige class. Much like Greyhawk as some have said, but the difference with greyhawk is that not many (there is a greyhawk book that isn't reprinted) people have a map, country description or whatever to use greyhawk specific stuff.


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## Arcane Runes Press (Jul 16, 2002)

Orcus said:
			
		

> *The whole problem is that you are using elves. Come on, people open your eyes! Elves are not cost effective.
> 
> Thats why we at Necromancer Games employ only undead. Mindless servants. Evil minions. Call them what you will. But the bottom line is this: Low pay. No breaks. No need for a health plan (though the zombies could use a dental).  *




Yeah, but undead are _brainless_ , so they don't even hunt and peck, they just keeping poking the Q button with their index finger. 

I mean, who wants the book of QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ?

Certainly not me. It's all fluff. 

Patrick Y.


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## seankreynolds (Jul 16, 2002)

Zulkir said:
			
		

> D) Two products 1) All crunch 2) mixed
> 
> Crunch (80 units makes its margins), mixed (45 units 20 from mixed 25 from crunch - doesn't make its margins but turns a profit). Congratualtions! You made your margins (the mixed didn't pull your numbers down low enough) and you didn't lay off any Elves!




I am baffled at how Lords of Rumness is not considered "mixed.

12 pages of spells/items.
10+ pages of pre-statted characters
6 pages of prestige classes
40 pages of pre-statted encounter sites (not including maps)

68 pages/192 = 35%. That's a really good amount of crunchy material there. How much more needs to be there before it's considered "mixed"? 50%? 60%?

The FRCS is only about 35%....


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## ColonelHardisson (Jul 16, 2002)

I'm not being facetious at all by saying this - I find discussions about business between people in the know to be fascinating.

I love when Uncle Sean tells us a story!


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## Blacksad (Jul 16, 2002)

seankreynolds said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I am baffled at how Lords of Rumness is not considered "mixed.
> 
> ...




I can immediately use genasi or a new spell.

The prestige class, characters and encounter sites from Lord of Rumness requires some work to be used in another campaign.

I think that's where you have to draw the line between fluff and crunch, otherwise you'll have to consider the Manual of the Plane to be all fluff.


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## Kershek (Jul 16, 2002)

At this point, considering the post differential, I think Sean should put in his sig, "No...I am not kreynolds."


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## Corinth (Jul 16, 2002)

Orcus said:
			
		

> *...The only thing about undead minions is that the incorporeal ones arent worth a damn. Keep that in mind.*



They make great industrial spies.


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## am181d (Jul 16, 2002)

seankreynolds said:
			
		

> *I am baffled at how Lords of Rumness is not considered "mixed.
> 
> 12 pages of spells/items.
> 10+ pages of pre-statted characters
> ...



Pre-statted characters and encounters are "flunchy".  They're rules-based, sure, but much more setting specific, and therefore, less useful.  Because, if you want to create an entire new world, do you want to populate it with pre-generated NPCs with the serial numbers filed off?  (Well, maybe, maybe not...)

Prestige classes, feats, etc.  These "crunchy bits" can be used as building blocks to make your own stuff.  For a lot of DMs, I'm betting that the "making stuff" part is half the fun.

Obviously there IS a market for pre-statted characters and encounters (and modules, by extension), but it's a third distinct audience.

"Flunchy."  

Someone, please come up with a better term.


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## Ristamar (Jul 16, 2002)

am181d said:
			
		

> *"Flunchy."
> 
> Someone, please come up with a better term. *




Cruffy...?


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## cybertalus (Jul 16, 2002)

I've been in love with the Realms since I first set eyes on the 1st Edition boxed set.  The thing I love about it is the "fluff" (a term I despise because it's quite derogatory and dismissive).  

When I got the FRCS the first section I went to was the gods.  I wanted to know who was in, who was out, and who was different.  Then I started looking for entries on my favorite NPCs, then my favorite cities and towns to see what was up with them.  Then I hit the foldout map.  Eventually I got around to the sections on game mechanics and other stuff, but that section didn't get my imagination firing like the "fluff" did.

So yeah, I'm firmly in the fluff camp.  Heck my favorite Realms supplements ever were the Volo's Guides.  You couldn't get more fluffy than that if you made the books out of cotton candy.  

Take the "fluff" out of the Realms products and what you've got is what you have when you take the fluffy stuff out of the middle of a 3 Musketeers Bar:  a dull hollow chocolate shell.  Certainly not something I'd buy.

One other point.  In the exchanges between Anthony and Sean one thing I see is that Anthony is telling me something I've gotten very tired of hearing, that as a customer I'm not as important because my tastes don't go along with the majority of the company's customers.  Sean meanwhile is defending the value of my tastes, and saying that (at least in this specific case) they are important.

No doubt that if there is ever a choice between buying a product by someone who put himself out there to defend the value of the "fluff" I so enjoy, and the company which says my tastes are not important because not enough people agree with me, the one who defended the fluff will have the decided advantage.


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## Zot_Wyzo (Jul 16, 2002)

*I've seen the elves' side and the bean counters' side*

The truth is, in Corporate America regardless of any feelings about the subject (emotions always run high when discussing your favorite recipes), the bean counters are right.

Now before I start a flame fest, please note, the bean counter race did presuppose the notion that there would be gnomes who loved some fluff about Forgotten Rums, or even something like DragonPants, Dark Rum, RaisinLost, or a whole host of heretofore unknown recipes. The bean counters wisely allowed the creation of the Open Gastronomic License and the Donut20 License, allowing elves from all over the world to produce the recipes with the flavors they like. They allowed others to produce the RaisinLost, DragonPants, and Dark Rum recipes, keeping gnomes happy all over the world!

The fact is, the current home of the elves can only support so many elves and a requires a certain return on the investment to produce Core Donuts and Forgotten Rums. Should that return not be forthcoming, it's time for some of the elves to leave the elven homes in the human lands to find another village in which they can produce the recipes they like. This keeps elves employed in the industry they like, the gnomes are able to choose from a wide array of products, and the bean counters can remove those recipes that do not produce enough beans for them. We even must face the potential solution for the Wizards of the Toast that they may need to stop producing Forgotten Rums. Should that happen, it may go the way of the RaisinLost.

Everybody is happy, at least eventually. It's always hard when elves find themselves between villages, but eventually, you always end up in the right village to work on the recipes you love.

You have to love capitalism!


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## CRG (Jul 16, 2002)

> Should that happen, it may go the way of the RaisinLost.




Should the Toast-boys cease to find it financially viable, I think most people would agree with with Forgotten Rum going the way of RaisinLost, provided SSSSSSSSSSS continues to produce RaisinLost material.  Presumably, some third party company could start making Forgotten Rum material with some sort of license to do so (as with DragonPants).  Hopefully it will continue to be good.

However, this would drastically change the Toast-boys into a company that produce a whole bunch of Rum products to nearly exactly the model mentioned by Ryan Dancey in the recent posts ... Forgotten Rum would just be another setting where the Toast-boys produce a few set of "core-ish" books because that is where they see the big money is, and then ship off the rights to produce the rest to some other group.

I'm not sure what sort of pipeline the toast-boys see for incoming work and projects but that seems to eliminate a cash-flow creating product line (from where I sit) and ultimately pushes people interested in Forgotten Rum to follow another company.


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## GothVader (Jul 16, 2002)

I don't have much time but I want to point out a couple of things real quick. First, there have only been 2 World of Greyhawk supplements for 3e and both kinds sucked. Real Greyhawk fans are pissed that the Realms got a better treatment than the "core" world. Real Greyhawk fans want more story, and it is there, all in the history of the world. Its not all crunchy.

Second, I am the last die hard communist on the planet. I will tell you exactly what WOTC problem is. How much money is enough money? It is never enough money. Corporations are never happy making a living, they always have to make more. Capitalism is a self-defeating system. Time to realize it folks. Sorry to argue politics but I thought it applied in this case.

Last, to Sean. Please stop, WOTC is going to sue you. Your fans don't want to see this.

Gothvader


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## Zot_Wyzo (Jul 16, 2002)

CRG said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Should the Toast-boys cease to find it financially viable, I think most people would agree with with Forgotten Rum going the way of RaisinLost, provided SSSSSSSSSSS continues to produce RaisinLost material.  Presumably, some third party company could start making Forgotten Rum material with some sort of license to do so (as with DonutLunch).  Hopefully it will continue to be good.
> *




That pretty much sums up how Forgotten Rums could continue to be produced, even though the Haze Brothers Bean Counters decided it was not efficient enough for their bean counting model.



			
				CRG said:
			
		

> *
> However, this would drastically change the Toast-boys into a company that produce a whole bunch of Rum products to nearly exactly the model mentioned by Ryan Dancey in the recent posts ... Forgotten Rum would just be another setting where the Toast-boys produce a few set of "core-ish" books because that is where they see the big money is, and then ship off the rights to produce the rest to some other group.
> *




Aren't you glad that Ryan Dancey had the forethought to come up with the OGL and D20 licenses? I'm sure he is even more glad than you or I as it keeps him employed!

Of course, I believe this is precisely what Haze Brothers had in mind for Wizards of the Toast all along.



			
				CRG said:
			
		

> *
> I'm not sure what sort of pipeline the toast-boys see for incoming work and projects but that seems to eliminate a cash-flow creating product line (from where I sit) and ultimately pushes people interested in Forgotten Rum to follow another company. *




That's the idea. I also begin to see how 160,000 beans for three potential recipes over the next few years that begins development with Crunchiness produced by Wizards of the Toast (a wholly owned subsidiary of Haze Brothers) would actually be worthwhile for the Bean Counter race. It is incredibly savvy, plus throws bones to the smaller Donut20 villages, where former Wizards of the Toast elves now work. The initial risk is assumed by the Toast boys for development, but further support is taken up by the Donut20 villages.

It keeps the elves employed, albeit elsewhere, plus puts the WotT margins in line with the Haze Brothers expectations. It's win-win for the Toast Boys, but of course some of these recipes will end up dying. The fact is that even though a Donut20 village has the rights to RaisinLost (or potentially Forgotten Rums), it could go out of business due to the failure of other, unrelated, recipes.


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## Largomad (Jul 16, 2002)

I agree with Sean. sometimes the logic  the bean-counters use is only understable for them.

At least  the elves could work for santa claus during the winter, i supose.


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## Kaptain_Kantrip (Jul 16, 2002)

I think the Realms is more or less retarded, for lack of a better word. I have little interest in its people, places or history because they are not built on a solid, believable base (*cough* Elminster *cough*). Greyhawk is better, but not by much. Therefore, I buy crunchy books only and ignore the rest. Bean counters are right!!!

In fact, I am getting so burned out on d20's munchkin "video game" feel that I am considering switching over to a more realistic set of rules... HarnMaster. I've already dumped FR, GH and homebrews in favor of HarnWorld, because it is so much more realistic and authentic than anything WoTC or anyone else has ever done. I mean, light years ahead! It's not for kids and its not for high fantasy lovers looking to bash endless hordes of unbelievable monsters, gather the best and most powerful magic items or behave in an obnoxious and unrealistic manner. It's a setting that treats its readers like adults... adults with medieval history degrees, LOL. I love it anyway!  

HARN 
http://columbiagames.com


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## Green Knight (Jul 16, 2002)

[Edit - OK, I can see you're upset.  But you know this isn't the place for it.  And you know I have to edit this. 

To everyone else - let's keep it non-political, eh?  We just had a classic example of exactly _why_ there's a no-politics rule on these boards.  People get angry and/or upset. 

-Morrus]


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## Zot_Wyzo (Jul 16, 2002)

I guess this thread has gone up in the proverbial flames.


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## Simon Magalis (Jul 16, 2002)

I was going to say... oh well, he's right. Nevermind. Jeez! 
BTW... keep your political comments OFF THIS BOARD! Damn that pisses me off and everybody else too. What an idiot.


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## Morrus (Jul 16, 2002)

Calling people idiots isn't nice, either, Simon.  Let's drop the subject and get back to the original topic, eh?


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## BeholderBurger (Jul 16, 2002)

Unfortunately when you talk about this subject it is all bound up in politics. THIS IS about pure greed which is always covered up by the argument of Corporate necessity.

I must register my complaint about Green knights response being censored. Goth Vaders point is still available to be seen. 
I actually totally disagreed with Green Knights analysis and have a lot of sympathy for Goth Vaders point of view but to censor him without censoring Gothvader is harsh.


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## Dwarven Godfather (Jul 16, 2002)

*About the Evil Overlords*

I think the biggest problem is that they want to charge to much for the books. I have friends who would rather loan me the copies for Forgotten rums, especially since I have a family and trying to make ends meet everday along with trying to buy  RPG books too is to expensive for todays economy. 
  I use to just buy Palladium  Books which are usually 200 to 300 page books and only ran $20.00 and still have the copies from 10 years ago still in good condition. I don't think they have to do fancy things to the front cover for me to buy them. I just bought  about a 64 page book for $20.00 and the local hobby store tried to push a The Epic Level book on me, but I told them I'd wait until a friend of mine bought the book to see if it was worth the buy, I'm pretty sure I will, but it will have to wait until I can get ahold of additional money to even think about buying the book.
  So the whole point to the story is that the Evil Overlords want to much beans for their products. I do love the Forgotten Realms setting and am adding it to the Dragonstar Universe, but I'm collecting the Forgotten Rums books very slowly and until then my friends are loaning the books to me plus they are loaning the older books also for more information to the Rums.
  This is only my feelings on the whole situation. The rest of the community is charging cheaper prices also for us who don't have alot of Beans in the first place.                     Dwarven Godfather


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## Morrus (Jul 16, 2002)

BeholderBurger said:
			
		

> *Unfortunately when you talk about this subject it is all bound up in politics. THIS IS about pure greed which is always covered up by the argument of Corporate necessity.
> 
> I must register my complaint about Green knights response being censored. Goth Vaders point is still available to be seen.
> I actually totally disagreed with Green Knights analysis and have a lot of sympathy for Goth Vaders point of view but to censor him without censoring Gothvader is harsh. *




The subject has been dropped.  Email me if you need to.  Let people get back to discussing Forgotten Rums and elves and stuff.


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## Paladin (Jul 16, 2002)

Morrus said:
			
		

> *Calling people idiots isn't nice, either, Simon.  Let's drop the subject and get back to the original topic, eh? *




Can we call the bean-counters idiots? Seriously though, the FR fluff is why I run the Rums. As a DM I don't have time to flesh out an entire world. If my players decide to _teleport_ to the other side of the continent, I really like being able to turn a few pages and in just a few moments find out who's who and what's currently going on in that part of the world. Without the fluff, what's the point of having crunchy?


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## CRG (Jul 16, 2002)

Zot_wyzo

That's exactly where I've headed on my original posts - thanks for answering.

Now the next obvious question would be whether or not things are going to die in committee.  Is something nearly doomed to die simply because of delays involved in the rights to bake Rum not quickly transitioning to someone who wants to bake Rum, should the Toast-boys no longer have that mission?

Hmm....


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## Henry (Jul 16, 2002)

Ignoring political jaundice and setting-prejudice in favor of the future of a setting that many people love, I do agree that Haze Brothers might REALLY need to re-think the position of their Dunkers and Draggers product line.

As much as I enjoy seeing Wizards of the Toast produce it, the call for "more beans" to compete with their highest margin products is killing off the product eventually. It's a HOBBY product, for God's sake, and not as big a seller as meat and potatoes-type products that anyone with a minimal creative drive can use. The Margins that are being made on certain products are enough to keep a company happy one-third its size.

If a certain brand name ever made its way back into the hands of a certain owner of a certain famous convention, or someone else who both had creative final authority as well as cared about the game, I would be an extremely happy camper. As it is right now, in my opinion, the health of the forest is being slowly sacrificed to simply have overwhelming numbers of trees.

Now, if you'll excuse me, all this metaphor is making me hungry. 

P.S. - I also want to thank both Sean and Anthony for taking the time to communicate their thoughts and insight to the others on this board. If it weren't for strong individuals like them still giving their time one-on-one, I would have given up on caring about "the Haze Brothers" and "Dunkers and Draggers" products about 10 months ago.


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## CRG (Jul 16, 2002)

> Now, if you'll excuse me, all this metaphor is making me hungry.




No kidding.

The kicker here is that we keep focusing on "toast" and the potential bean counters there, but really the Haze-bros call the shots.  

I'm glad my job is filled with this kind of heartache and machination on different scales and topics.  Wait, I mean, it sucks that my job is filled with it and now my hobby is too.  That is life I suppose.


----------



## The Grumpy Celt (Jul 16, 2002)

*Who pushed my "diatribe" button?*



> _Originally posted by Sinistar _
> *First off, thanks Anthony for replying to this thread. You have been really cool about this. *




Ah. Sinistar. My old enemy.

For those of you who do not know, Sinister and myself are arch enemies.  Except we are both the bad guy.  We keep breaking into each other secret lairs, blowing up each other doomsday weapons, ratting each other out to the likes of James Bond and Austin Powers, and stealing the elasmobranches from each other’s shark tanks and that sort of thing.  We spend so much time doing that, that Dr. Evil and Mojo Jojo keep showing us up.

That said, I’m taking my gloves off and using real names in the rest of my diatribe.



> _Originally posted by Sinistar _
> *I am a big fan of FR. but I have bought just about every book that WOTC has put out for 3E because I am a greedy little gnome. That said, I believe that the setting is more important than the rules. *




As a frequent DM, I often “wing-it” when it comes to the rules in favor of the story.  

These games are about it being so groovy that people can finally get together for connecting and having fun (without taking their clothes off).  Telling a story – and ideally a game is a group effort at telling a story – is just one way this can be done.  “Crunchy” game mechanics are just a tool to help facilitate the telling of the story, so keep it on track and to be a means of arbitration.

The “creamy” aspects of the books – Forgotten Realms included – help greatly when it comes to the story aspects of the game.  They help move things along every bit as much as does the mechanics.



> _Originally posted by Sinistar _
> *The only reason I find this at all odd is that I thought that "crunch" books had their day already. Now that the ELH is out, what other rules can you print? I think in just the WOTC core books there are too many flavorless Prestige Classes, too many wacky feats for me to buy another. And this is not counting what the other guys have put out. I think there will always be a market for new spells and possibly for new equipment. But how many of those can you make? *




I agree.

In fact, it can probably be said that with the forth coming Monster Man II, Book of Vile Darkness (sheesh, Imnop), Savage Species (and maybe d20 Modern), the “crunch” aspect will have been stretched as far as it can be stretched.  

Or rather it will have been stretched as far as it can without belaboring the point, becoming repetitive and its usefulness becoming thin.  All the conceivable bases will have been covered.  What else will there be but some essentially pointless repetition?

As for why they are doing it…pardon me while I digress for a story for the purposes of illumination.

In the movie “The Game,” the Michael Douglass character is an evil businessman*.  He goes to one his employees to fire the old man.  This old man had been running a factory that showed something like a 4% profit margin.  Douglass tells the old man he is still fired and still a failure because company board of directors had counted on a 5% profit margin. So despite the profit, the old man was still a failure.  

That is close to home because to Wall Street a 4% profit is an inexcusable failure because board of directors had been counting on that 5% margin so much that they went ahead and spent the 1% they did not and would not have.  And if you want to refute this and to deny that it happens, then how can one explain WorldCom, Xerox, and Enron?

So, if the DMG and the PG and the MM made – hypothetically speaking – a 5% profit, but FRCS only made a 4% profit, then the FRCS is a failure.  If further Realms books only make 2.5% profit or 2% profit then that is even worse. If Magic the Gathering and Pokiemon and Harry Potter trading card game made a 10% profit, then the failure of the Forgotten Realms books becomes past being inexcusable and its time to schedule a trip to the slaughterhouse.

Because that is the way the world works.

*Interestingly enough, the “evil businessman” copyright is owned by Michael Douglass.


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## Damon Griffin (Jul 16, 2002)

Ristamar said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Cruffy...? *




Moist? (like cake...nah)
Flaky? (like pie crust...nah)
Soft-boiled? Starchy?

Maybe a noun would work better...meringue? nougat?

Not sure I'm getting any closer to a useful suggestion, but I'm definitely getting hungry.


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## Dark Psion (Jul 16, 2002)

There is one thing all of you are overlooking here and that is new players.

For D&D to survive  there has to be an influx of new players and DMs and it is the Fluff that draws them, the flavor of the Realms and Greyhawk is what got many into gaming. 

The Crunch is what scares and overwhelms many of them at first, just too many numbers and rules. For those of us who have been playing since the D&D blue book, we tend to forget that for some people every adventure is new teritory.

As to big business, D&D isn't big business and never will be. Hasbro's business is based on Gold mines. Cabbage Patch kids, Tickle me Elmo and Pokemon are gold mines. D&D is not and that is a good thing because gold mines play out quickly. D&D is an Iron mine that has lasted and will last for generations. Occationally you might encounter a vein of gold or silver, but it is the iron that makes the consistant money.

As to Bean counters, I have two bosses at work, a brother and sister. The brother knows the business, the merchandice and the customers. He is out there with the employees, often doing the same job side by side. The sister sits in an air conditioned office crunching numbers, only occationally emerging to demonstiate how much she doesn't know about the business. It's best to just smile, agree with her and wait for her to go back office to count more beans.

Oh and Anthony, just because you live among the Trolls, it doesn't make you one.


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## Banoc the Worm (Jul 16, 2002)

*Beancounter Alert*

Geez and I always thought that profitability matters and that we all live in a "mutualy benificial" consumer driven market economy. Oops, i forgot...i am a bean counter and proud of it


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## AaronBurr (Jul 16, 2002)

*Crunch and Fluff*

I am writing at this point even though the heat is getting high.  I apologize in advance if I offend anyone, but I don't think I will.  I will be telling a little story too.

     Once upon a time there was a child who played wonderful games from a company named Tree Silvan Resort which employed elves who had created a magnificent new toy called the Arr Pee Gee.  The child was amazed because this toy replaced many less thoughtful toys (although eventually led to the creation of Veydeo Arr Pee Gees etc.).  This toy had culinary (acting) aspects to it which drew him and all of his friends to it.  For a while there were no friends and the child had to play the purely Crunchy Toilets and Toils because they had recipes for one.  That being said, friends eventually were won over due to movies featuring the cooking (Hawk the Slayer, Animated Lord of the Rings, Star Wars).  

     At first everything the elves at the Silvan Resort gave recipes for was extremely crunchy, and the child had to play with lots of different people because some of his friends like the food so crunchy he feared he would lose his teeth.  This crunchy period included the Original Recipe, and the Basic and Advanced Recipes.  But the child noticed that at the beginning of many modular recipes there was fluff about a place called Awayhauk which suffered from a double cataclism.  Eventually a product called Planet of Awayhauk came out that was merely fluffy, but patchy in its fluff.  It gave you a calendar and timetable to cook by but no detailed descriptions of the food.  This was because the elves thought that part of the joy of Arr Pee Gee was the making of your own recipes.  They also thought that puzzles were what Arr Pee Gees were all about.  

     All this began to change with the elves magazine Dogone in which a man from the Green wood wrote of Rums, and a man named Bymax finally started detailing some of the recipes in Awayhauk.  Bymax couldn't really keep up with the Green man because the Green man had designed rum without crunch and only description and then added crunch to fluff.  He used the crunch that was already there and added it to his fluff.  This worked wonderfully for some, but others wondered where their room to create new recipes was in this new world.  They liked the sparse fluff of Awayhauk and loved the balance of fluff and crunch in Mistera.  But they also loved the small recipe books for the Green Woods Rums.  The Savage Toast, the Toastless Lands, Toastdeep were wonderous fluff, but with such powerful spices (good spices) one often wondered what the child's contribution could be in the way of having a role in the Rums.  Elspinster and his fellow fluffians were so potent that there was little room for Rantledane Spuzzleblapper.  The Zaaanterian was a threat, but really unles Elspinster was lazy he would be more than enough for them.  So the child noticed that the rums were almost an excuse for some people who wanted to be New York Trees chefs could write as a starting place.  Nothing wrong with that, but it was intimidating.

     Needless to say these small recipes were affordable (9 beans) because they weren't printed on acid free full color paper with matte covers.  No they were cardboard and cheap paper and the child was happy to have them.  The came Dark Ale which was neat, but too crunchy for the child.  Planesuds which was awesome, but how do you cook it?  I'll have to ask Monte because I am sure it tastes great.  Also there was Toastright which was a great product, but the elves (The company was all elves back then) overproduced it and Flagon Mice (more flagon mice, but the return of a lot of recipe books for Toastright by major recipe book stores was also significant).  In the craze to make beans because the children would buy anything the elves forgot to pace the items and that children would feel betrayed if they had to buy every little recipe book to cook. With the rums the Savage Toast was enough, but with Toastright on child needed Roughaghableian and another neede Illlaianana for the game to make sense.  Toast had villains but no heroes and the child new that children were to be the heroes and that was great, but the child wasn't Bill Gates and couldn't afford all the little recipe books, as obviously many other children couldn't or didn't want to.  This led to the collapse of the elves company.  Well this and the fact that some elves were stealing beans (a practice that appears to still be going on according to certain news releases).

     Lucky for the child some Wizards saved the elves and planned  a new edition ofthe recipes which would allow the freedom for children to cook, but tell them what all the spices and cook times were.  It was a wonderful idea.  At some point in this process the Haze Bros bought the Wizards and took over the recipe books which meant the quality would be high (and maybe the cost).  The new edition was a great success and even promised to bring back Awayhauk as the default recipe.  It started out okay, but the Awayhawk recipe book was a low production quality high recipe quality affair because it was obvious that unlike the child the elves didn't much like Away they preferred the Rums.  Look at how beautiful the Rums book was when it came out.  Wow!!  All the Rums books are beautiful (they are also very good, I own them all).  But they don't appeal to some people.  Maybe because they aren't crunchy, and maybe because some people like other fluff.  This is why Haze seeks a new fluff to appeal to people.  But the elves love the Rum just as they grudgingly tolerate Away.  Some children like Away and more like Rum, but that is the way of things.  The elves don't complain about the lack of Away material because they really don't care and it is convenient to blame the beans for the Rums rather than contribute to Away (even on their private sites).  

    Haze wants Rum to sell, but also some elves have stolen beans from Haze and the Pocket Bean Producing machine isn't producing as many beans so some crush must follow.  The elves are right when they say 40 should be satisfactory in sales, but that is because 40 probably means 40,000 and that is a lot of beans and surely meets bean margins.  Maybe if the books were more like the less flashy recipe books of the past they would sell better ,but the Beautiful and Great Silver Rummishes is very expensive especially when it comes out at the same time as the Crunchiest Handbook.  I have more beans than I used to so I can afford the cost, and I like to read the fluff.  As I said many like to use the Rums as a way to display their recipe writing talent as a jumping point to writing all story books which make the New York list.  This child thinks many of the writers are good enough and this is why he buys the Rums even though he lives in Awayhauk and Mistera.  

     Use cheaper materials on the Rums Fluff (maybe that will work).  I don't know for sure what will.  I am certain the beans don't know recipes from mp3s but they do know what corporate losses are.  By the fact they are looking for new recipes the beans may just not like the elves and that would be tragic.

Christian


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## Heap Thaumaturgist (Jul 16, 2002)

AaronBur ... I have a few ranks in Innuendo, and I understood all of that, but it made even -my- eyes cross about halfway through.

Ooo, my head.

--HT


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## Tyros (Jul 16, 2002)

*Nice first post, Mako!*

It looks like I missed all the "fun" on this discussion, but in a way I'm kind of glad. This looks like a personal vendetta wrapped in a patronizing economics lesson. 

I would have to say that in a strict product & profitability standpoint the "bean counting" does not give much leeway. If a company expects a product to generate x dollars in revenue, and the product fails to do so, the product is a failure to those who set that standard. That would be a nod to upper management.

D&D is a personal thing to everyone here, and as more developers are laid off from the d20 product line, it is painfully obvious that it was even more personal to the system's creators. From one person that works for a living to another, Mr. Reynolds should not be faulted for his frustration with the direction Wizards is going with D&D. I take everything I do at my job(s) personally; that's how I succeed. How many of the people that create these profitability standards actually play these games?

Unfortunately for everyone involved, whether the execs and decision makers for the fate of D&D play the game does not matter. They are there for their abilities as businessmen, their skills as merchants enable the company to continue. But at what ultimate price? 

You can't make quality books that don't fall apart at the bindings with fancy lithographs and glossy color illustrations without expecting to turn over a certain amount of $$ for the people investing in the company.

Ultimately, it is WE the consumers that determine the direction of future products. WE the consumers buy what we feel is useful to help our gaming sessions every week. And the company will listen to what WE want.

I saw this morning a subtle urge on this web page to check out the Silver Marches. How many of you checked it out? How many of you are going to buy it? The laws of supply and demand can't possibly be hammered in any more than they are with this thread.

WOTC is trying to determine a formula for making RPG supplements that sell. We are the only people that determine their success.

I think I've been hypocritical enough in this post. Time will tell how many FR fans are out there and whether the writers of the FR product line can appease them enough to keep the line alive.


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## evil_rmf (Jul 16, 2002)

Dark Psion said:
			
		

> *There is one thing all of you are overlooking here and that is new players.
> 
> For D&D to survive  there has to be an influx of new players and DMs and it is the Fluff that draws them, the flavor of the Realms and Greyhawk is what got many into gaming.
> 
> ...




I agree with you there.  I also agree with the previous post saying that there can't be much pure crunch left.  If Wizards of the Toast spins off all the fluff, what else is there to do?   

Now add this to the mix: The existing crunch is already too overwhelming to new players.  Two years ago, you grabbed the Baker's Handbook, the Kitchen Master's Guide, and the Munchie Manual, and you were done.  Now there are all of the books for the different types of pastries, etc...  An incoming group of new players is going to look at that and say no way, too expensive and/or too complex.  That will reduce the influx of new players.  So what do they do?  "Mmmmm." says the bean-counters, "Last time we re-invented the game, we gained new players, and brought back some who were out of the fold for years, so let's do it again!"

That scares me.  Re-do the rules, get it back down to a few types of Donut Holes, and hit the big red reset button.  Everyone will come running to buy the new core stuff because, we are all obsesive-compulsive geeks, or so the bean-counters may think.

Seriously, if WotT goes to core stuff only, the market will get saturated eventually, as everyone will have the core books, and not nearly everyone wil grab the more esoteric sets of crunch.  They will have no choice but to invalidate the game and release a new edition, or sell the core off.

My personal experience with D&D dates back to pre-1E.  I got out of the game a few weeks after looking over the Dungeoneer's Survival Guide.  That was too much crunch, and there were nothing but crunch-happy rules-lawyers around for me to avoid being stuck with it.  I tried, people wanted to roll on every 2 feet to see what flaver of mold we might have slipped on, and I said screw it, and quit.  Completely missed 2E, and was glad of it when I saw all of the class handbooks, etc..  However, I came back with 3E.  For my group, the jury is still out on 3E.  We have been talking HarnMaster and HackMaster recently.

OK, enough of the analogies.  In my opinion, prestige classes in particular, and some magic, *must* be setting-specific to work.  I bet the FR specific prestige classes and spells work great in the FR setting.  I play a homebrew setting.  The stuff in the generic class books would require way too much re-working to work in my world, and really haven't given me enough good ideas to warrant buying them.    So to me, it's just extra crunch I don't need.  Anyone else feel that way?


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## JoeGKushner (Jul 16, 2002)

To be honest, I'm of a mixed mind.

First off, I was very disappointed that the first region book was The Silver Marches.  Done to death.  To death and ressurected and put to death again.  I'm sure there is a lot of new material in the book, but 1st ed and 2nd ed books, as well as Volo's Guides, say this puppy's had it.  The only things worse would've been Dalelands or Waterdeep.

Having said that, I do have the book.

I don't play FR.  I enjoy it because I may play it one day and a lot of the magic items, monsters, and characters act as catalyst for meta-thinking about fantasy settings.

One thing I'm curious about is the diminishing returns.  Old FR and Known World books used to be numbered until someone figured out that people were intimidated by the rising numbers.

Second thing is the player vs. DM aspect.  Lords is a DM book.  Magic is a player and GM book.  Silver Marches is a DM book.  Crunchiness isn't a matter.  If they come out with a book like Hall of Heroes and each character has a PrC, that might get players to buy it, but I'd bet it's going to be fans of the novels and GMs once again.

More criteria and intelligence needs to be utilized in determining the strong points of a product.


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## kkoie (Jul 16, 2002)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> *Second thing is the player vs. DM aspect.  Lords is a DM book.  Magic is a player and GM book.  Silver Marches is a DM book.  Crunchiness isn't a matter.  If they come out with a book like Hall of Heroes and each character has a PrC, that might get players to buy it, but I'd bet it's going to be fans of the novels and GMs once again.
> 
> More criteria and intelligence needs to be utilized in determining the strong points of a product. *




Good point.  I think thats why books with crunchiness sell so well, is because it contains stuff that make both Players and DMs happy.  Where as books that are mostly cream, generally seem to contain mostly material that makes the DM happy.

I know that when Magic of Faerun came out, despite my campaign being a homebrew, 2/3rds of my players immediately purchased a copy.  Where as Lords of Darkness was purchased by only 1 person in our group.

Personally, I have no problem with the way WoTC is handling things.  All companies are like this.  You have the exec's, you are rightly concerned with profit.  And you have the little employees who are less concerned with profit than they are with their own little corner of the company.

If it wasn't for the "bean counters" Dungeons and Dragons would've tanked years ago and we'd probably be screwing around on a video game discussion board rather than an RPG discussion board.

K Koie


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## Jondor_Battlehammer (Jul 16, 2002)

JeffB said:
			
		

> *Oh it definitely makes business sense Anthony...I'll never argue that...I deal with this kind of stuff on a daily basis in both my main hobby,and my job...
> 
> That being said..what about those of us who want Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms cream?  Because the OGL doesn't apply..we are screwed more or less..we either take the crunch or  move on...
> 
> ...





1)Apologies for posting such a long quote.
2)Not picking on anyone, this post was just perfect for my point.

The short and sweet answer is, make it up your self. Thats the DM's job, whether that is you or someone you play with. This may get me flamed, but I have never been a die hard fan of any world made by TSR, Wizards, or whoever. I have found that some of the best adventures and supplements have been the ones generic enough to fit in any world, any world being those of MY creation. I have the most fun as a DM by creating a unique world for my friends to explore.

Also, while the argument that it is nice to have a world fleshed when you can't do it yourself, or when the players do someting out of left field, is ABSOLUTLY valid, there has been so much FR stuff published over the years that I would argue that you can't explore it all. Between what has been published, all the generic stuff that could be dropped in, and all the fan based sites bound to pop up if FR does go under, despite the OGL, fans should have plenty of material to keep playing for a long time. Dragonlance certainly hasn't died. I doubt Chainmail will either, even though it hasn't been around as long.

That being said, I also worry about what this could mean for D&D and RPG's in general. But even if Wizards dissapeared overnight, the game would survive. D&D started as a flash in the pan idea that turned into a raging fire. Same with Magic TG. No matter how bad things get in the corprate side of things, creativity and originality will prevail. The players make the game. besides, nothing bad has happened yet, and probably won't.

Just a more positive note, which I think this thred needs badly.


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## Renshai (Jul 16, 2002)

Kaptain_Kantrip wrote: 



> I think the Realms is more or less retarded, for lack of a better word. I have little interest in its people, places or history because they are not built on a solid, believable base (*cough* Elminster *cough*). Greyhawk is better, but not by much. Therefore, I buy crunchy books only and ignore the rest. Bean counters are right!!!
> 
> In fact, I am getting so burned out on d20's munchkin "video game" feel that I am considering switching over to a more realistic set of rules... HarnMaster. I've already dumped FR, GH and homebrews in favor of HarnWorld, because it is so much more realistic and authentic than anything WoTC or anyone else has ever done. I mean, light years ahead! It's not for kids and its not for high fantasy lovers looking to bash endless hordes of unbelievable monsters, gather the best and most powerful magic items or behave in an obnoxious and unrealistic manner. It's a setting that treats its readers like adults... adults with medieval history degrees, LOL. I love it anyway!





You like Harnworld? Great, that is the type of game you enjoy. You like your “fantasy” to be grounded in “reality”... ok? It certainly doesn’t give you any sort of moral high ground or the right to infer that people who enjoy the Forgotten Realms / Greyhawk are retarded/powergamers/munchkin.  

If you don’t like d20 then why not refrain from posting here, in a place where people obviously enjoy it.  

I swear, its people like you that make this place less and less tolerable. 

Ren


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## Allensh (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Bean counters*



			
				Zulkir said:
			
		

> *1) You can lay off some elves and get the remaining elves to work harder. (lower your costs keep revenue the same)
> 2) You can increase your prices and piss off your Gnome customers. (keep costs the same, raise revenue - hopefully unless the Gnomes rebel)
> 3) You can cancel the FR line, lay off some elves take the revenue hit but make your margins. (lower revenue but lower costs more)
> 4) Or (and this is apparently the evil choice) you can try to find a way to make your FR line sell better. (raise revenue without raising prices and keep costs the same).
> AV *




Maybe Hasbro needs to realize that they bought into a niche industry, and that it might not get all that better. Trying to market D&D to the masses does not work. Instead, Hasbro should have left Wizards to make D&D the best it can be, since the people who were there know about one million times more about roleplaying than Hasbro ever thought of.

Hasbro's mistakes seem to be in putting too many eggs in the Pokemon basket at just about the time those eggs were breaking, and in somehow thinking they can make D&D sell like Monopoly or Magic. Ain't gonna happen. The problem isn't that it isn't profitable (as I read it) but that is isn't profitable enough.

Hasbro shold sell D&D to a smaller company that doesn't need it to sell unrealistcally high to consider it a success.

Allen


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## Yuan-Ti (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Bean counters*

Self-edit: It could be perceived that my joke was a continuation of the "killed" political comments.


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## Oracular Vision (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Bean counters*



			
				Zulkir said:
			
		

> *Folks,
> 
> CLIP....
> 
> ...




Looks like a soviet-style 5-year plan! Lets run this baby into the ground, gouge the customer, lay off everyone, walk away from established products, and make cheesy munchkin books...gee, this is a great hobby!

I don't mean this TOO seriously AV...but it does seem odd that these steps are what has and may happen, and you have listed them all here...


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## Imnop (Jul 16, 2002)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> *
> 
> ...Boo of Vile Darknesso...
> 
> ...




  

"Go for the eyes, Boo!  Go for the eyes!"
-Minsc

  

I couldn't resist.  (And with my first post on these "new to me" boards too.)

Some random thoughts:

Would this story about the elves in Gameland make a good bed time story to tell my five year old niece, or would it scare her to much?

I know I need to replace my thought processing mechanisim, but...  Does anyone else think Mr. Reynolds should have developed this story into a setting proposal, and submitted it to WotC's new campaign contest?

Glad to see Morrus got the fire extinguisher out.  Hopefully it was in time to make sure this thread becomes a classic EN's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition thread.  Whoops.  I meant classic EN World thread.


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## Thorin Firemane (Jul 16, 2002)

*Just putting in my two coppers . . .*

I have written and re-written my posting a few times, trying to adequately state my opinion on the matter, and I keep failing.  I'm really frustrated that once again I have been conned into investing in a game that seems to be dying a slow, corporation-induced, death.  I really love the 3rd Edtion, but I'm still a little sad when I don't see the old TSR logo on the products anymore.

I hate the thought that Wizards may be heading in a similar direction.  I don't think they will go under, but I do think they are slowly sacrificing the quality of their products for the "bottom line".  I think the "bean-counters" are destined to win this whole contest, simply because the reality of the situation is that they call the shots.  If they feel that "fluffy" FR books are not good sellers, then you can bet that "fluffy" FR books will die.  For those of you who are not concerned about the "fluffy" stuff, though, I urge you to remember this:  the Bean Counters That Be will not discriminate when the fluff is gone and all they have to look at is the crunch.  When the fluff is gone, the crunch will become the low-man-on-the-totem-pole, so to speak, and will likely become the next vicitm.

It isn't a matter of getting "crunch vs. fluff" in our products.  The ideal products have a good balance of both, tied to no specific worlds (anyone remember "Tomb of Horrors?")  It is a matter of the bean counters thinking they can make whatever they want, and still make us give them our beans.  That's right, I said it:  "our" beans.  We're the ones with the money, people.  Wether we decide to give it to Hasbro/Wizards should depend on how willing they are to give us what we want, regardless of what percentage of us want it.  The Crunch people and the Fluff people need to work together, so that we can determine what is published, not the Bean Masters, most of whom probably do not even play these games.

I have no interest in the Forgotten Realms at all, personally.  But you know what?  I really loved Planescape.  I know it is still out there, supported by other web sites, but I still miss being able to walk into a local hobby store and see the newest "Planes of  . . . " boxed set.  I feel for the FR people, whose setting may very well be going the same direction.  These things are happening because we let them.

The Silver Marches may well have some background that will inpire you to create a new feat, magic item, or prestige class of your own.  Meanwhile, I'd say the Epic-Level Handbook is likely to have some incredible seeds for new campaing ideas.  Always remember:  The crunch is the framework for the fluff, and the fluff is the inspiration for much of the crunch.  Neither will survive without the other.

I consider the Bean Counter "story" to be a warning.  Part of our game is about to become extinct.  If we let that happen, the rest will soon follow.  It happened before, and it can happen again.  And we cannot count on someone being there to pick it back up this time.  We have been warned.


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## TeaBee (Jul 16, 2002)

> Hate to break it to you but larger books sell more copies then smaller books (by alot).



Well then, make the books LARGER. See, you've had the answer all along and it took me to get it out of you for you to see it.


> So please, have a heart, try not to call me any names





> Psst... hey buddy



Can I call you my buddy too?


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## Orcus (Jul 16, 2002)

> I'm still a little sad when I don't see the old TSR logo on the products anymore.




Wow. We have now officially come full circle. People lamenting the TSR days and griping that WotC D&D is run by bean counters. If that isnt bass ackwards...

You live long enough you see it all. 

But I guess it is always the same thing. What starts as a vision, turns into a "product." Products need product managers (insert Dilbert comic strip here).

That is the beauty of d20, to some extent. I am the elf and the bean counter. If I want to make a Judges Guild Wilderlands Boxed Set with all 18 maps in it that will definately barely break even (If I'm lucky) I have the authority to do it!  Why would I do it? Becasue I am the bean counter. And I can say "I want to make that product. I want to leave a contribution. I think it would be cool."

So I guess what I am saying is that the elves and beancounters need to multiclass. Clark Peterson, human male, CG Elf3/Bnc3.

Clark


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## Mark (Jul 16, 2002)

Orcus said:
			
		

> *So I guess what I am saying is that the elves and beancounters need to multiclass. Clark Peterson, human male, CG Elf3/Bnc3.
> 
> Clark *




Bump up those levels a bit, Clark.  The ELH is out now and if anyone deserves double digits in both classes it's you, brother...

BTW it is very nice to see the mix of industry people, new and old EN Boarders posting to this thread.  It's unfortunate that it takes a controversy of this proportion to get this type of response.


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## Kaptain_Kantrip (Jul 16, 2002)

Lords of Darkness is a good book if you run FR, and if you assume that many of the organizations described aren't ridiculous and unusable in a believable context. I bought Lords of Darkness solely for the crunch: maps, rituals, spells, feats, etc. Aside from the Red Wizards, Cyricists and Banites, the rest of the book was for me at least, pretty much a complete waste of space, time and money. There was simply not enough crunch in the book--there was too much cream devoted to utterly dumb lameness: Cult of the Dragon, Shades, Malaugrym, Beholders, and other high-powered, stupid organizations. There were like only three feats! That sucked, even though Phalanx Fighting was a great one. Some of the spells were @#$% reprints. The magic item and drugs sections were too short. Lords of Darkness was okay, but would have been much better with less crap and more crunch. Magic of Faerun was a great book--hardly any FR cream crap in it if you ignore the first part of the book with boomshrooms, mage duels and other retardedness. Lots of crunchy spells and goodies.

I would never, ever buy the Silver Marches. No interest. None. Zero. Zippo. I hope it does fail, so that we get more crunch and less cream in future products. WoTC's idea of "cream" and mine are so radically different that they could probably never produce an intelligent, believable and mature setting I would use. They are pretty good with rules and other crunchy bits, however, so those are the products I buy. More crunch, less crap, please!


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## LostSoul (Jul 16, 2002)

Ah, what's the big deal.  Can you play in the Realms now and have fun?  You can?  Well then, you don't need anything else.  Sure, it would be nice, but them's the breaks.  It could be worse.


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## Corinth (Jul 16, 2002)

I'm not buying the arguement that the current edition is too rule-heavy.  Crunchy games are newbie-friendly because those RPGs look like games and not like something out of bad improv theater; you read what you need to as you need to read it, and thereby learn what you need to learn when you need to learn it.  Taking it all in one go is not how its done when it's time to teach the new guy how to play.


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## Shadowdancer (Jul 16, 2002)

am181d said:
			
		

> *"Flunchy."
> 
> Someone, please come up with a better term. *




How about CrispyCream? 

All this talk of baking is making me hungry.


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## dema (Jul 16, 2002)

*Deposits Change*

Wow, just read all that.

AV- you rock keep doing what you need to.  In our book you are one of us.  ( or maybe just a doppleganger)

 


SRK- keep venting man, I love it.

 


Everyone else- Can we talk about meat and booze for a change.
Both are filling, both make you feel good. Sure both can cause a brain tumor or something (mad cow, and dead cells.)  But it feels so good going down.


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## Derulbaskul (Jul 16, 2002)

Orcus said:
			
		

> *
> (snip)
> That is the beauty of d20, to some extent. I am the elf and the bean counter. If I want to make a Judges Guild Wilderlands Boxed Set with all 18 maps in it that will definately barely break even (If I'm lucky) I have the authority to do it!  Why would I do it? Becasue I am the bean counter. And I can say "I want to make that product. I want to leave a contribution. I think it would be cool."
> (snip)
> Clark *




This illustrates a point that the D&D products really don't fit, culture-wise, within a Hasbro-type company. Sure, the core books do to a certain extent but the peripherals? No, I don't think so.

It's not a question of "good vs evil": publicly listed corporations have a whole different set of goals and measures than privately owned ones (and forget the Enron jokes). The D&D product line is probably better placed within a private company where, like Orcus says, "I want to make that product. I want to leave a contribution. I think it would be cool."

Cheers
NPP


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## rounser (Jul 16, 2002)

> There was simply not enough crunch in the book--there was too much cream devoted to utterly dumb lameness: Cult of the Dragon, Shades, Malaugrym, Beholders, and other high-powered, stupid organizations. There were like only three feats!



Wow, Kaptain.  If there's some pseudo-alignment axis to tastes in gaming products, consider me Chaotic Evil to your Lawful Good.  I had to do a double-take to check that you weren't being sarcastic.


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## bushfire (Jul 16, 2002)

Orcus said:
			
		

> *Wow. We have now officially come full circle. People lamenting the TSR days and griping that WotC D&D is run by bean counters. If that isnt bass ackwards...
> 
> You live long enough you see it all. *




Yeah, most seemed to have forgotten that TSR was run by bean counters ever since Gary was kicked out. And dumb bean counters at that.



> *That is the beauty of d20, to some extent. I am the elf and the bean counter. If I want to make a Judges Guild Wilderlands Boxed Set with all 18 maps in it that will definately barely break even (If I'm lucky) I have the authority to do it!  Why would I do it? Becasue I am the bean counter. And I can say "I want to make that product. I want to leave a contribution. I think it would be cool."*




And that is why I have no fears about the future of D&D,  The Realms may go the way of Dark Sun, Ravenloft, Spelljammer and the others but D&D will always remain. D&D is *not* a published setting, D&D is a set of game rules. As long as people can still use these game rules D&D will survive and may even florish.



> *So I guess what I am saying is that the elves and beancounters need to multiclass. Clark Peterson, human male, CG Elf3/Bnc3.
> 
> Clark *




And that folks is why I love (and buy) Necromancer Games products. The entire organization is run as much for the fun of the game as it is to make some money. Unfortunately the company doesn't, and probably never will, pay as well as thier "real" jobs. But they get to do what they love and make some "pocket change" in the bargin.

Now this option of making "pocket change" isn't an option for Wotc/Hasbro. They have a need to make serious money, not just from greed but to pay all those elves that work there.


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## KnowTheToe (Jul 16, 2002)

I don't plan on buying any of the background FR stuff, but I did buy Magic of Faerun because of crunch, so I can understand where the bean counters come from.

What they need to realize is that without enough background the FR could lose its feel and many of its followers.  Balance is key, maybe they need to throw in a few more crunchy pieces to entice non FR players into buying books.


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## cyphertube (Jul 16, 2002)

*Long rant with some suggestions*

I hope I don't drive everyone nuts on this.

First off, as a former project manager, I understand the need for profit margins. I have worked for companies in which people LOVE what they do, use no business sense, and end up in layoffs. This happens in almost any industry, and the failure to understand what is required as a profit margin will kill a company quickly.

I agree with the person who posted earlier about justifying products. Perhaps there is a problem with Hasbro not giving very clear definitions. I've had bean-counters who decided that something didn't make enough money, but who didn't give me the criteria they were basing that decision on. Get the criteria written down and then when you need to justify something, justify it within the criteria. Rare is the time I've met anyone in a paper-pushing decision-making position who looked at someone from multiple angles.

Second, while I love reading Forgotten Realms novels and I think it's a neat setting, it has been running for a long time and, well, much like adrenaline, I can't do high magic for hours and hours on end without having something taken out of me. I made a conscious decision for 3E to buy no FR books whatsoever. Yeah, I know, I'm a traitor. But since I don't run an FR campaign, I'm waiting for a campaign setting that meets what I want, or else I'll develop my own.

I guess that makes me a traitor to the cause, but I didn't get hooked on Dungeons & Dragons through FR. Actually, the overkill of FR through 2E almost lost me. I started off with the Basic D&D rules and checked out the 1E AD&D rules from the library so often I practically owned them. (I do own copies now.) The original feel of those 1E books was one of danger and excitement. Wondrous things are only wonderful if they are rare. Does anybody here remember the excitement of getting online for the first time? That was wondrous! But now it is mundane.

The first novels from TSR I read were the Dragonlance novels. Magic wasn't everywhere within them, and it was great. I was gripped by the setting. Now, settings come and go and most people would agree that DL has more/less been killed off, but that's ok. I don't believe in a catch-all setting for WotC to kill by overloading it, but a use of three settings would be great. Greyhawk is sort of middle-of-the-road. FR is definitely high magic. So where's the low magic world? 

My third and last point is to look at the classics of fantasy. Take a look at Tolkien's writing as an example. No, it's not all a great read. But it is so intricate and well thought out. When we talk about crunchy versus fluffy well, we need to start looking at how things tie together. A good setting will be filled with lots and lots of crunch and be brought together with fluff. A rulebook is going to be crunch, crunch, and more crunch, but disparate rules are useless. Campaign books, as well, should not be fluff only. They should be factually presented, much like a good history book. (Want a good one - try Norman Davies' "Europe: A History".) If we look at life, we look at law books to find rules, history books to find out what has happened, and novels to understand how it felt. Why can't we see that a good campaign setting should be more/less the same?

Ok, enough rant.


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## eldoen (Jul 16, 2002)

The only thing in the story that SKR left out was the pure greed part of being a public company.

So Let's bring those that are not in it for the long haul but have legal rights.  And are expecting the company to make a profit. 

Now it becomes a Business of greenbacks and not  a business of love for the product.  

The story about AMC buying Harley is a perfect example.  

While profit should be a major concern in business. it is driven to the point of quarterly over analysis in the public sector. (and sometimes not analyized enough in the case of enron and others) 

So you have a CEO that is now tasked will bring a return on stocks on a Quarter by Quarter basis. and that is where
the margin numbers come in.  

A small company that isn't public that only has its small amount of owners to please, can take lower margins and turn out a product.  But most of those people do it for the love of game.  And you get a higher quality product in alot of cases.  

Ever notice that most of the D20 companies products get higher reviews than those of WOTC.   It is a different of Focus. 

haze brothers is a public company with WOTC as a division.  Haze brothers has to meet the expectations of its owners (every one that owns stock in the company and attempt return a profit. Or cause the loss of value in that company as the owners leave)

What is worse is that it is ran on a 3 month cycle. which means that a certain number of sales are expected to maintain a certain amount of growth of the company to keep a growing value for the investers in the company.  

Now take that into account and the Beanies make a bit more sense. although it does make a statement against publically owned companies. 

The public doesn't care about the company or its products in most cases. ownly that it has a return on investment.  

Worked at 4 private companies that went public and saw the degadation of the product to accomedate ROI to many times. 

el


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## CRG (Jul 16, 2002)

I think the actual resolution and summary was described a few pages back...

Fact - Various products are not as profitable as the Haze-Bros want

Fact - The Toast-Boys are looking for ways to make some of their products more profitable or at least meet the targets of sales, etc. on the metrics that the Haze-Bros require

Fact - If things go as they presently do, many of these products will miss those targets

Fact - If that occurs products such as those may not be produced by the Toast-boys anymore

Assumption - If correlation is drawn between this and the post by Mr Dancey about the Toast-boys producing a few core rulebooks and then licensing out all future development is used as a base, one could see a point in time where the Rum production becomes like the DragonPants or RaisinLoaf production.  This means one or two base books coproduced by the Toast boys with another company and then that other company producing future material under license.

Conclusion - The market from the Toast-boys will become crunch heavy.
*** not necessarily a bad thing

Conclusion - The third-party companies will produce the fluff and crunch (as well as just plain fluff) baked goods under license at a lower profit margin and thus still be able to function.
*** not necessarily a bad thing

Conclusion - To do this, elves will start migrating from the Toast-boys to other bakeries.
*** not necessarily a bad thing

Conclusion - This doesn't mean the end of the Rums, but it may mean a drastically smaller focus for the Rums and maybe even a transition time period where new material is virutually non-existent for the Rums.
*** not necessarily bad things but could hurt the Rums a bit

Conclusion - With the Toast-Boys producing mostly crunch and yet holding supreme license over the Donut Cores (with the noted exception of the OGL/D20 capabilities) it puts production of Donut Cores in the hands of a group which becomes increasingly dis-interested in the fluff.
*** at some point people may wonder what value the Toast-Boys continue to provide - if a new movie / setting is produced and they want to license a game, who will win that business?


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## Psion (Jul 16, 2002)

Orcus said:
			
		

> *That is the beauty of d20, to some extent. I am the elf and the bean counter. If I want to make a Judges Guild Wilderlands Boxed Set with all 18 maps in it that will definately barely break even (If I'm lucky) I have the authority to do it!  Why would I do it? Becasue I am the bean counter. And I can say "I want to make that product. I want to leave a contribution. I think it would be cool."*




Marketing and product management by coolness... the beauty of d20.


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## bkcurley (Jul 16, 2002)

Personally, if I want the non-crunchy stuff, I'll buy a FR novel.  The problem I have with most, if not all, campaign settings is that using them is like playing someone else's campaign and when they put the crunchy stuff in with the fluff, you have to buy the stuff you're not interested in and will never use to get the stuff you might want and might use.


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## Warchild (Jul 16, 2002)

CRG, i LIKE all of those conclusions!! Consider me behind your theories in full support!! Rock on. 
WOTC, are you listening?


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## Tallow (Jul 16, 2002)

*To SKR and AV*

Sean and Anthony:

I appreciate both sides of your argument.  This is where I stand.

1) I didn't by Lords of Darkness because I thought it was just a book on NPC's and such.  I also don't have a current campaign that I'm running in the Forgotten Realms, and in my mind it was a DM book.  In the event that I run a Forgottem Realms campaign again, I will probably buy it.  Basically, the marketing (perhaps title?) of the book was misleading.  If it has spells and PrC's and such and I had known this, I probably would have bought it already.  I often buy my books in my mind before they are on the shelves, that way I don't read the back cover, or preview the content before purchase.

2) The d20 Liscense/OGL/OGC/SRD or whatever you wanna call it was marketing genius.  You probably have sold more core rule books because of this.  That being said, don't you think this is exactly why your Donut Cores have sold better than your Forgotten Rum?  For every OTHER setting out there that requires your Donut Core books, you probably will lose a Forgotten Rum sale.  I know that I only have a limited amount of money to spend on roleplaying material.  If I find one or two other settings that catch my fancy, AND I'm running a game or playing a game in that setting, I will probably buy those books instead of the FR books I don't need at the moment.  Most gamers I know have limited budgets as well.

3) Sean, I understand your frustration and irritation on this matter, but it is hardly professional to express your vitriol in such a public manner.  Unfortunately the nature of our country, capitalism, and big business, means that the artist WILL suffer some.  That being said, when I have run FR campaigns in the past, I have really LOVED the creamy stuff and bought most, if not all of it.  You would probably be fairly impressed at my collection of FR stuff from the original AD&D and 2nd Edition.

4) Anthony, I understand the business aspect of this.  But... a bean counter has GOT to know that campaign specific stuff is going to suffer because of the d20 liscense deal while the core stuff is going to profit off of it.  It is NOT fair to FR developers and fans alike to hold both to the same standard.  The margin, perhaps, needs to be lowered a bit for FR stuff, because you KNOW it won't sell as well, BECAUSE you've created a dynamic that WILL sell core stuff better.  The OGL was pure marketing genius in my mind.  Assuming that people will buy FR because of name recognition (FR or WotC) and that you can hold FR to the same standard you hold DC is a delusion at best.  I personally, probably won't buy too many more FR books because I don't run in FR AND it seems to simply be a rehash of all the old stuff.  How many copies of Waterdeep or the Dalelands or Cormyr do I really need?  I have the old FR# and FRE# series from the original AD&D and I bought many of the 2nd edition versions of the same thing and I bought the remake they did in the 90's.  So in some cases, I own 3 or 4 copies of revised material for the Dalelands and Cormyr.  Will I buy a 3E FRCS version of the Dalelands just to get some Dalelands specific spells and PrC's?  Hell no!  FR has pretty much exhausted any uniqueness it can present except to just convert all the stuff I already have to 3E, which isn't too difficult for me to do on my own.  That being said, Silver Marches and the Spider Queen books are good ideas because they do detail new stories and new developments in areas that have drastically changed.  The vision of Alustriel has advanced in Silver Marches. 

Well that's my 2 cents.

Andy Christian


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## EricNoah (Jul 16, 2002)

I see it as having little to nothing to do with crunch vs. fluff. I see it as a question of potential buyers -- players & DMs vs. just DMs.  

Players and DMs will buy the FRCS and Magic of Faerun.  Only DMs will buy Lords of Darkness.  I haven't seen Silver Marches, so I don't know who it's aimed at.  Does it have stuff for players?  Would having it reveal secrets to players?  Those are the things that will determine whether it's a "must have" or a "DM says I shouldn't have, it will spoil the surprise" type of product.


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## BryonD (Jul 16, 2002)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> *I see it as having little to nothing to do with crunch vs. fluff. I see it as a question of potential buyers -- players & DMs vs. just DMs.
> 
> Players and DMs will buy the FRCS and Magic of Faerun.  Only DMs will buy Lords of Darkness.  I haven't seen Silver Marches, so I don't know who it's aimed at.  Does it have stuff for players?  Would having it reveal secrets to players?  Those are the things that will determine whether it's a "must have" or a "DM says I shouldn't have, it will spoil the surprise" type of product. *




I DM almost exclusively.  When I picked up Silver Marches in the store I thought of how little Lords of Darkness has added to my game and decided Silver Marches probably was not worth the money to me.

In my case the Crunch vs. Fluff was everything to do with it.


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## Sinistar (Jul 16, 2002)

Hail Grumpy one. Do not bring up the Mojojojo incident again please. I still have the scars..

Eric, my response on the Silver Marches is sort of mixed. There were portions of it that I as a DM would not want my players to see, but there were other portions that were imperative that they read. So I am a bit torn. I don't think it gives away too much, especially if you preface anything the players read with "maybe, maybe not". I think the Silver Marches as a book is as good as the FRCS. 

I am about half way through reading Silver Marches now. It is one of the better setting books I have ever read. I really like it. Most of it is probably "fluff", I have not reached the monster or PrC section yet, and that is what I am looking for from a setting. 

I am sure the equations that are being used here are more complex than an either or situation. I think reducing it two to sections of "crunch" and "fluff" is probably unhelpfully simplified. 

My only concern is this; what happens to D&D when there are no sponsored settings? The current theory is, that new settings sell their first two books so for the next big things, (CoC, WoT, probably everything else that will come out) they get two books. That is fine. Many settings really don't need more than that. But what happened to D&D the game when there were no settings for it. Before the re-invention of 3e there was only FR as a setting by the end and it was not enough to keep the game profitable. 

We have come full circle. We only have FR left and it is not enough to be profitable. Fine and dandy, the free market working on its own. That may mean (but hopefully not) the end of FR. What then do you publish? You have the class books. You have the ELH, you have a new MM coming, but what else? 

The model seems to be going to the Magic:the Gathering model that I really loathe. "Hmm, expansion has stopped selling. Ok pump out the new expansion with the same material just re-arranged. Oh and throw a different artist at it." D&D becomes the collectible setting game. Wayward Lunchboxes the new gamer inspired setting sells its first two books. One of which is almost all new rules on how to play with the lunchboxes. Never mind that it is a 3e D&D game. The rules really should not be different. But you have to have a new mechanic or it does not sell to those who like the "crunch".  So after the quarter that sells Wayward Lunchboxes, you have to come out with the new setting.

It resets and starts over. You now go with the Stray Toasters game and invent yet another mechanic that has to be played in this particular setting that makes the first book a rule book and the second a setting book. Only maybe this setting really does not need that much space for the mechanic so you make one book that has only the rules and the setting in it. That takes care of a quarter.

and again... I am getting long winded. But the model depends on Joe Gamer wanting the next big thing to the exclusion of wanting the old thing.


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## JeffB (Jul 16, 2002)

Eric,

Good points...

So then does D&D become a game for just the players? If they only produce products that DM's may or may not want or need, then where will that leave the game in the future?...

There are already less DM's to players...by ignoring the needs of the DM..WOTC sets up the game for failure..less DMs...less people to introduce the game to newbies..less people play...

SO the former players become DM's..then they realize they have no support either....same situation...

This has been the problem since the mid-80's...narrow minded focus on selling books for players.....then they wonder why people drop out of the game after a few years or move on to another game.... 

Not bad now..but very bad in the long run....and WOTC sets itself up for the same failure as TSR...as long as absolute bottom lines at the expense of all else, rule the game, it will always crash and burn every several years...

WOTC needs to relearn their thinking process..by focusing on being the BEST..the biggest title will come in time...


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## provik (Jul 16, 2002)

*Crunchy Rums*

I bought my crunchy Rums book (it had some crunchy, but the soft filling was really useful).

I do believe, however, that a company that cancels Chainmail because it didn't take off fast enough (even though it won awards for great new game) and even though it had potential for a strong and loyal following (miniatures people can be dreadfully loyal)....

...anyway, yes, I believe they will cancel FR just because they're stupid enough to do it.  Like an idiot with a torch.  I believe he would set fire to the printing press because he doesn't know how to use it.

Bobbo


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## Tallow (Jul 16, 2002)

Jeff,

I'm not sure I agree that the DM was ignored by TSR.  They put out TONS of source material for almost every single corner, and then some, of the FR's.  They had the Volo Guides, which were excellent.  The problem wasn't lack of support.  It was too much REDUNDANT support.  The first round of Dalelands/Cormyr/Anaroch/Sword Coast/Savage Frontier/etc. was great, and probably sold great.  It was when they rewrote all these and put them in boxed sets, which was unecessary, and sold them at boxed set prices that they didn't sell as well.  As I said in my earlier post, I have 3 or 4 copies of each set of source material.  Why do I need 3 books on Cormyr just because they updated for the next 10 years?  THAT is why DM material doesn't sell well now, even though NOW is when the revision is warranted.  NOW is when we need a new Cormyr and a new Dalelands, so we have area specific PrC's, feats, etc.  But I probably won't buy them for quite some time, because I'm burnt out on too much stuff that was unnecessary.  Unecessary stuff put together in a set so they could sell it for $60 bucks is why TSR failed.  Not the fact they didn't support the DM.  And now WotC is having to deal with a burnt out crowd who doesn't want to buy new books on the same material again.



			
				JeffB said:
			
		

> *Eric,
> 
> Good points...
> 
> ...


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## MadTinkerer (Jul 16, 2002)

*The importance of Beans*

Ya know what? I think the Bean Counters are right. After all, the Elves can make all the Forgotten Rum they want, but they can't drink it. Their only source of food is Beans.

See, the Bean counters are hired to count beans, and they also can only eat beans so people think the Bean Counters are selfish. What many don't remember(as evidenced by some, but not all on this thread) is that the Bean Counters are also looking out for the Elves. If the Bean supply runs low, the Elves will starve.

Now it seems to me the real problem is the Haze Brothers(if the parable is accurate). The Haze Brothers should realize ASAP that Beans are the most important thing, especially when it comes to Donut Cores and Forgotten Rums. Those who purchase what the Elves make vote with their Beans and by telling others about how crunchy or creamy their donuts are.

(It seems to me that if the Bean Counters and the Elves want to please the Haze brothers with Tales Of Sales, perhaps the Elves should produce a D&D tabletop game that fairies(almost D&D players like fantasy novel readers, serious chess players or CRPG players) would like but WITHOUT completely removing all of the crunchy AND cream like the last three incarnations of Beginner's D&D did.

The legions of fans (Elves? Gnomes? how far are we stretching this metaphor?) that buy the "donuts" came from SOMEWHERE, you know. They began with the fairy-sized crunchy and creamy goodness. Fairies DO like Crunchy and Creamy, but in much smaller portions. Unfortunately, the donuts being made are too large for fairies' mouths and the rum is too strong. 

That's the real reason why so many fairies are buying Neverwinter Mints, Dungeon Burgers, Warcaft Pie Morrowwind Soup. The Crunchy is ground up into a paste leaving creamy and the crunchy taste, without wearing out the poor fairies' jaws. 

If the nuts are smaller, more Donuts will be bought. The Haze Brothers need more donuts sold? Fine, IN ADDITION TO ELF SIZED DONUTS, MAKE FAIRY-SIZED DONUTS!!!! (And don't stiff the fairies by removing ALL the crunch either. If there's no crunch, the fairies might as well play Scrabble.)

Then maybe, just maybe, I can get grandma to play.)

Just rememer, fellow Elves: the Bean counters keep the Elves from starving and the Haze Brothers keep the Bean Counters from being out-counted by faster, meaner Bean Counters in other donut-making enterprizes. The Bean Counters aren't evil, just cranky. The Haze Brothers aren't evil either, they just need to realise that Beans are better than a warehouse full of stale crunchy Donuts and flat strong Rum that nobody traded their beans for.


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## seankreynolds (Jul 16, 2002)

am181d said:
			
		

> *
> Pre-statted characters and encounters are "flunchy".  They're rules-based, sure, but much more setting specific, and therefore, less useful.  Because, if you want to create an entire new world, do you want to populate it with pre-generated NPCs with the serial numbers filed off?  (Well, maybe, maybe not...)
> *




Actually, 90% of these pre-statted characters I'm talking about are "typical drow wizard level 1-10," "typical drow fighter level 1-10," etc. ... not world-specific stuff, or so light in world-specificness (i.e., Zhentarim wizard ... can be dropped into any game without changes) that the distinction is irrelevant.


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## Blacksad (Jul 16, 2002)

seankreynolds said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Actually, 90% of these pre-statted characters I'm talking about are "typical drow wizard level 1-10," "typical drow fighter level 1-10," etc. ... not world-specific stuff, or so light in world-specificness (i.e., Zhentarim wizard ... can be dropped into any game without changes) that the distinction is irrelevant. *




Here the problem might be what is the added value of those NPC versus the NPC in the DMG.


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## der_kluge (Jul 16, 2002)

I have to agree with EN on this one.  I used to DM exclusively, and then I transitioned to player.  After I became a player, I found that I had time to work on a netbook.  The netbook got the attention of Thunderhead Games, and now I write for them.  In no way would I have the time to be a DM now that I write for TG.  That being said, as a player my purchase decisions fall into two categories:
1) something I can use as a player
2) something I can use as a DM in the future because it's just too good.  This will always fall into the world generic category.

For example, I would probably never buy anything for the Scarred Lands setting, simply because any game I ran would exist in the Bluffside world.  I have no need for any SL stuff.  Do I think it's good stuff?  Absolutely, I just don't want it- too world specific for me.  But, I bought Bastion's Alchemy and Herbalists book because it has a lot of good ideas in it, and I can use it both as a player, and as a DM in the future.  Chaos Magic by Mongoose was the same way.  Both are excellent books, and both add value to me as a player, and as a possible DM.  I'm going to get Common Grounds because I believe I can get value from it as a DM in the future, and because I'll be sharing a booth with Jeff Colledge this coming weekend at FlatCon and I can get him to sign my copy.  

I also own the FRCS, because it is an excellent book, does have some really great crunchy stuff that I can use as a player, but I'll probably never use it as a DM since I don't DM in FR.

But I think the DM/player thing is kind of two sides of the same coin - that coin being fluffy versus crunchy.

Crunchy stuff can be used by both players and DMs, but fluffy stuff is almost exclusively used by DMs.  And many DMs won't want the fluffy stuff since they may not play in that world.  Kaptain Kantrip and I agree here (*gasp*).  Hence, any solely fluffy thing is only going to reach 1/4 of the gaming sector - DMs who play in the world, which in reality, makes up less than 25% because the DM to player ratio is probably lower than that.  I.e., more players than DMs, not at a ratio of 1:4.

Anyhoo, I'm rambling now.


----------



## seankreynolds (Jul 16, 2002)

Blacksad said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Here the problem might be what is the added value of those NPC versus the NPC in the DMG. *




A drow fighter is going to have a different selection of ability scores, feats, and gear compared to the "generic, raceless" fighter presented in the DMG.


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## Desdichado (Jul 16, 2002)

_



I consider the Bean Counter "story" to be a warning. Part of our game is about to become extinct. If we let that happen, the rest will soon follow. It happened before, and it can happen again. And we cannot count on someone being there to pick it back up this time. We have been warned.

Click to expand...


_
This doesn't make any sense.  Either you're extinct or you're not.  You don't go extinct over and over again.

RPGs never went extinct.  D&D never went extinct.  I'm not paying attention to anyone who wants to "warn" me that they will in the future, as I think that warnings not worth a... well, a hill of beans.

This thread has, ignoring the brief communism tangent, been way to alarmist for my tastes.  I simply don't buy it.  And for that matter, I'm not sure I should be concerned.  I have enough crunch already, although I'm more likely to buy crunch than fluff if I see something that I really like (I want to buy the Sovereign Stone magic system, for example, but that's all I want from the Sovereign Stone Campaign setting at this point) while fluff I can do without.  But I recognize that because I prefer to homebrew, that makes me different from some others that don't, and really need the fluff in order to play.

But if that's the case, that'll shake out too.  If Silver Marches doesn't sell as well as hoped, and the next book is all crunch again, and everyone gets tired of crunch and it doesn't sell either, someone will finally figure out that the crunch-fluff dichotomy is really only one aspect of what causes a book to sell rather than the be-all end-all.

I'd just as soon keep buying d20 stuff I like from smaller companies, though.  As long as 4e isn't right around the corner so we have to all go buy all this stuff again, or else not have a player base.


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## jester47 (Jul 16, 2002)

seankreynolds said:
			
		

> *
> 
> A drow fighter is going to have a different selection of ability scores, feats, and gear compared to the "generic, raceless" fighter presented in the DMG. *




It has that in it?  Well Sean, you just sold some books...  I guess I need to stop shopping where I have to peruse the books standing up...  Or I can abuse the WotC stores.  Say I did not like it and then head over to the local independant game shop and buy it there.  Still right now I am running on no job so Amazon discounts are getting my money...

Aaron.


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## ColonelHardisson (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Just putting in my two coppers . . .*



			
				Thorin Firemane said:
			
		

> *I have written and re-written my posting a few times, trying to adequately state my opinion on the matter, and I keep failing.  I'm really frustrated that once again I have been conned into investing in a game that seems to be dying a slow, corporation-induced, death.  I really love the 3rd Edtion, but I'm still a little sad when I don't see the old TSR logo on the products anymore.
> 
> I hate the thought that Wizards may be heading in a similar direction.  I don't think they will go under, but I do think they are slowly sacrificing the quality of their products for the "bottom line".  I think the "bean-counters" are destined to win this whole contest, simply because the reality of the situation is that they call the shots.  If they feel that "fluffy" FR books are not good sellers, then you can bet that "fluffy" FR books will die.  For those of you who are not concerned about the "fluffy" stuff, though, I urge you to remember this:  the Bean Counters That Be will not discriminate when the fluff is gone and all they have to look at is the crunch.  When the fluff is gone, the crunch will become the low-man-on-the-totem-pole, so to speak, and will likely become the next vicitm.
> 
> ...




I couldn't choose exactly which portion of this post to quote, so I'll respond to it as a whole.

Let's assume the worst happens. Everytime someone poses such a scenario, they are seen as being Chicken Little - "The sky is falling!" 

And then the sky falls. Repeat cycle.

Anyway, let's get back to the assumption. The worst happens. Let's say that Hasbro shuts down D&D and refuses to part with the D&D imprint. Not gonna happen, but just for the sake of discussion, let's entertain the notion.

It won't invalidate what we already have. 3e is already a complete game. You really could play for a long time with just the original 3 books. It's that flexible. So the crunch part is there, intact, usable, unassailable. The d20 publishers and users of the OGL will continue to add to that crunch for as long as they are able (but I'm concerned, a bit, at how slowly the SRD is added to now, and how we haven't heard much about it for a while...)

The fluff? Well, the fluff is there also. It's out there, spanning 3 editions and just as many decades (80s, 90s, 00s). There are boxed sets, novels, modules, computer games, etc. etc. _ad infinitum ad nauseum._ 

So if the worst happens, we're still set with material. Enough to last at least a lifetime of gaming.


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## TiQuinn (Jul 16, 2002)

Warchild said:
			
		

> *
> 
> My problem for such products is a little different. I've been playing FR for so many years, there is little i haven't explored. Books like this trample over the things we have already done. Although Lords of Darkness give you a mechanics conversion for the bad guys of the realms, so it has a little more value to me than actually the Silver Marches (though i didn't/won't buy either), an area with which we have already touched many times ourselves (ie my group and players) in campaigns over the years. I really don't need the area expanded, because we have already done it and don't want to change what we have done over the years. Thats a symptom of a setting that has been around a long time. Although i ended up having the same problem with Scarred Lands. I had the Gazetteer long before the source books began coming out for it. So by the time they did, i had already created much of the setting myself out of necessity and wasn't interested in material that was likely to override what i had already done. Although no matter how much it differed from my own version, Hollowfaust was damn cool.
> I don't know how common my situation is, though. Everyone in my group has 15-20+ years(one has 10, but it is a jam-packed 10 years)  of gaming experience. Even setting rulebooks tend to get chopped up by whoever in the group is running at the time. I/we judge a book by its QUALITY of fluff (not mentioned much in this thread, but all fluff is not talented fluff) and ease of ajustibility, because after so long a period of gaming we already know what we are doing and/or looking for. We just look to add books that will help us along and provide the ocassional spark. *




I had the exact same problem, Warchild, and it was part of what turned me off to Forgotten Realms.  Eventually the campaign ran its course, but I recall that there was a lot of expectation to remain "true" to the sourcebooks.  IMO, Canon kills.


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## Blacksad (Jul 16, 2002)

> We will look at how well this next book, The Sliver Munches, does. If it does better than Lords of Rumness, then we will look favorably upon these other Forgotten Rums books you want to do--Raisins of Fae Rum and ... I cannot read the title of this next 'regional book,' but it does not matter--and let you make them. If The Sliver Munches _doesn't_ do better than Lords of Rumness, we will make you change what the Forgotten Rums books are all about.




I just wanted to add an opinion:

while I believe that the next regional book will sell as much as Lords of Rumness and the Silver Munches.

I belive that Raisins of Fae Rum will sell as much as Magic of Fae Rum, it will contains all the planetouched races that apeared in Dragon and the dino-humanoid, doesn't it? and I think that it should have the ECL for all Forgotten Rums monster (if it doesn't that would be a good idea to put them in). I think that this would have appeal to any D&D gamer.

So I'm worried that the result of Silver Munches might affect the publication of this one, wich I think will have way better sales than all the other FR books on schedule.


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## Tallow (Jul 16, 2002)

Blacksad said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I just wanted to add an opinion:
> 
> ...




I agree with you here 100% Blacksad.  The point isn't about rehashing stuff that's already been done simply to add a few new prestige classes and feats and revising it for 3E.  Its about detailing the stuff that makes it new.  Instead of doing another Cormyr and Dalelands, why not do a FR supplement on PrC's around the heartlands?   I would buy the Raisin's of Fae Rum simply because it details something I'd want to use and its new and fresh.

Andy Christian


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## The Sigil (Jul 16, 2002)

*Easy...*



			
				am181d said:
			
		

> *
> "Flunchy."
> 
> Someone, please come up with a better term. *



How about, "they're Krispy Kremes?"



--The Sigil


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## Nathanael (Jul 16, 2002)

IMHO, the point is about how much profit is enough profit. 

The reason increasing profit needs to be made, as is evidenced by recent events, is not for the growth of the company, or even the stock held by the public. It is for the largess of the CEO and other company execs.

Seriously, you need to make serious cash to pay for executive compensation packages, defecit spending, lawyers to save their butts from Sexual Harassment/Equal Opportunity/Fair Trading violations and loans granted by one executive in the company to another so he can by a new 100 foot yacht, which he may or may not pay back.

This isn't about making a profit. The point is about the current business model needing to support the not so new corporate culture that consists of parasites that cannot be fired without sending the company into trouble. Read the latest issue of Forbes. The article on 'Bad Boys' will be enlightening, and also frightening, because you will get a glimpse of the real reason enough profit is never enough.


----------



## DM_Fiery_Fist (Jul 16, 2002)

Personally I find that the fluff involved with the Forgotten Rums can be found in cookbooks, rather than game manuals.  I want the game manuals to contain the crunchy bits I can use...Magic of Faerun was great.  I will read a novel if I want history.

Just MHO

-- DM Fiery Fist


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## JeffB (Jul 16, 2002)

Tallow said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I agree with you here 100% Blacksad.  The point isn't about rehashing stuff that's already been done simply to add a few new prestige classes and feats and revising it for 3E.  Its about detailing the stuff that makes it new.  Instead of doing another Cormyr and Dalelands, why not do a FR supplement on PrC's around the heartlands?   I would buy the Raisin's of Fae Rum simply because it details something I'd want to use and its new and fresh.
> 
> Andy Christian *




See this is where the problem lies...I as a DM could care less about a book like this. PRClasses are way overdone as is. Most players will never need more than 1 maybe 2 for a PC. And DM's probably don't need more than a handful or two..in a fairly long running campaign...There are already tons of PrClass books...and nto to mention several dozen in all the FR products to date. 

A Book of Races that is full of just stat/feats/PrClasses is no different than the core splatbooks...just FR names tacked on instead of GH ones tacked on

However, I won't begrudge anyone who DOES want that type of book....

But...

 if there was cool non-rules info on the races, their organizations (with appropriate Prclasses if need be), etc.  That kind of product satisfies both camps and proves useful to everyone..not entirely useful..but more useful over a broad range of customers... 

which is precisely what WOTC has been doing with the FR line up till TSM, then I'll be happy to buy the stuff...

I'm not saying I hate crunch..I just don't want a whole damn book full of it...D20 is already oversaturated with crunchbooks and little fluff (comparitively)...How many campaign supplements ahve we seen comapred to race/monster stat/class/feat/skill/Prclass books so far? Yep there are some campaign settings, but not nearly like the amount of crunch books..


The fact is that while lots of people like crunch, and lots of people like cream..in a campaign setting supplement tied to a particular world..you have to have both...The core books and GH are a clearcut example of failure..not saleswise for the crunch lovers...but 

A)how many of the people who bought them for crunch actually use the material in a GH campaign?

and

B) How many who love GH cream think that the splats are great GH books?  

Very little from both camps....

And if the cream is taken out of the FR books, the same thing will happen...and sales will plummet...why buy a $30 pretty crunch book, when you can get the same amount of useful material in a $20 B&W one? 

Ahh well..it's just a game...It doesn't really matter...but it makes me sad that 3E has already run it's course (and it has...D20 is another matter), and WOTC will finally  live up to  the  "Wizards of the Cash"...moniker..as we start to see epic-level splatbooks, and the catalogs fill with re-hash...


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## diaglo (Jul 16, 2002)

doesn't mean much to me. they will still produce the novels, which generate more income than the gaming supplements.

besides the Forgettable RUms books are overpriced


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## Tallow (Jul 16, 2002)

Jeff,

Perhaps you misunderstood me.  I want a Race book with fluff too.  But getting all the ECL's and all the options and such for RACES would be good.  I don't want just a crunchy race book, as I hate crunchy raisins.

Andy


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## EvilPheemy (Jul 16, 2002)

*Notices Valterra posting to the thread*

Man, if Christina _KNEW_ that you were hopping around the EN boards instead of working on the Fantasy Setting Search, after she worked her fingers to the bone processing the entries, she'd get _doubly medieval_ on you.

Best lock yourself back in the office with a two-liter of Code Red before this goes much further.

Keep this up and people will start thinking you guys have free time up there in Renton.

*Can't take your eyes off these folks for a second!*


----------



## TiQuinn (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Forgotten Realms and Evil Overlords*

Questions/Comments:

1) I play D&D once a week for about 4 to 5 hours, maximum.  I have no idea what the average is, but I know my game does not cover every setting out there.  Our game does include hopping about to several planes, and we don't meet every organization and NPC out there.  Our campaigns tend to last 1 to 2 years before we start over with something else.  So, take Manual of the Planes for instance.....right now, it means nothing to me.  I've looked through it, and though it looks pretty good, it just doesn't have much application to where our campaign is at.  But maybe.......................it'll get incorporated and used in a future campaign.....so given all of this, what is the average lifespan for these books and what gets recorded as a success in the accountants and managers books?

2) If WotC/Hasbro decides to hold onto the licenses for Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk, how do the companies working with the OGL get to create setting specific info?  If you're going to give up the wheel, then do it, and turn it over to people who are willing to write "fluff" material.  Or do the "bean-counters" still think the name Elminster has some value that they can record in their books?

3) Heh, Ravenloft was worth about 2 to 3 books full of crunchy bits.  So's Dark Sun.  So's Planescape.

4) What happens when you run out of crunchy bits and start retreading old material?


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## Wicht (Jul 16, 2002)

JeffB said:
			
		

> *Ahh well..it's just a game...It doesn't really matter...but it makes me sad that 3E has already run it's course (and it has...D20 is another matter)*




3e will only have run its course when everybody quits playing it.  The realm books on the other hand will likely be over and done with long before 3e runs out of wind.  But thats because, as someone else has already said, canon kills the setting.  It would be better if they just froze the books in time and set down the law that any novels not include world changing events.  

This is why I like Kalamar and this is the reason I have yet to buy any Faerun books except Monsters of Faerun.


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## Sinistar (Jul 16, 2002)

I disagree with you in part Wicht. But not entirely. I think that the rules system runs its course far before the setting material does. 2e was dead as a game to put out new rules for long before they stopped printing FR material.

I am trying to think of a logical rules book left to be put out. I can think of minor books that would be best left to d20 (mass combat, equipment manuals) publishers. But I cannot think of a good solid need that 3E has left to print.


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## Blacksad (Jul 16, 2002)

JeffB said:
			
		

> *
> I'm not saying I hate crunch..I just don't want a whole damn book full of it...D20 is already oversaturated with crunchbooks and little fluff (comparitively)...How many campaign supplements ahve we seen comapred to race/monster stat/class/feat/skill/Prclass books so far? Yep there are some campaign settings, but not nearly like the amount of crunch books..
> *




Are you sure of your memory? 

199 books with the word campaign
218 with the word setting
402 with the word adventure

out of 805 products (search done with the search engine of d20 review).

And crunch isn't always feats and Prestige classes: you can have new magic school (wildspellcraft), brand new mechanics (Tournaments Fair & taverns or d20 super), alteration to existing system (psionic toolkit), etc...

To me Race of Fae Rum is something that no-other company than WotC can do (genasi, aasimar, etc... are WotC PI), has appeal to Planescape fan, Curently can only be done in the FR (there is no Genasi in greyhawk, and the dino-like races needs the FR logo), is player friendly, and somehow is "new" (there isn't many book with ECL for races or new PC races: monster by AEG is one of their one word book and many won't buy them, and I think that FFG has done one but I haven't heard many things on it).


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## Imnop (Jul 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted and then edited by The Grumpy Celt _
> *
> 
> ...Book of Vile Darkness (sheesh, Imnop)...
> ...





I can't help that your typo and signature reminded me of a Baldur's Gate quote.  

I thought it would help set the tone for my previous post.  See all those smilies I used in it.    And my post was intended to try and bring the light/serious post ratio a little towards the light side.

And, as you can see many more serious posts have followed, so IMO, I didn't upset the balance at all.

I don't know if you had a chance to read Green Knight's post on page six before it was edited by Morrus but it is what prompted me to post.  Not it's content but it's tone.

It should be easy to tell that I prefer to lurk and not post.  And, I really would have hated if this thread had gone up in flames.

Don't miss "When Good Threads Go Bad" on the next Jerry Springer, where the correlation between total thread post count and chance of a thread going up in flames is explored.


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## mkarol (Jul 16, 2002)

*Crunch w/o fluff:*

I have one word for crunch without fluff:  Oozemaster.

It just seems to me that we are lamenting the inherent nature of RPG products.  In the universe of potential buyers, each ‘supplement,’ has a smaller market than the previous; hence the definition of the word ‘supplement.’  However, there is a finite amount of generic crunchiness that can plausibly exist. 

For example, a “Templar of AO” or some other mysterious epic PrC could be an exciting addition to the FR world where as the “Templar of the Overlord” or some generic description may seem so vague as to be ridiculous or out of place without some context.  

Unfortunately, books about Mythology or Geography will only appeal to those who want to play _in_ that mythos or region; however, those places and gods can feed the crunchiness that can be exported to other settings.

On the other hand, people who really like the core magic system are not going to run out and purchase the Bigger, Badder, Book of Better Magic System.

The issue, as many have noted, is the reasonable expectation of  unit sales and understanding the symbiosis of crunch and fluff that inspires the universe of potential buyers to continue buying supplement after supplement.  Although our average buyer may skip ProductC or ProductD, s/he may be interested in ProductZ.  I think, in my under-experienced-no-sales-data-gut feeling, that the vibrancy of  a diverse and active product line inspires confidence in the entire line.  While a given element may not sell as well as expected, the fact that exists bolsters sales of its supporting or foundational products. 

And really; Oozemaster?


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## The Grumpy Celt (Jul 16, 2002)

*My underwear is evil.*

Point 1.  
This was from an earlier post but it was not a rhetorical question.  How far can the game mechanic – the “crunchy” – be drawn out before it gets stretched thin and becomes redundant and starts to belabor the point.

Technically speaking, only the “Players Guide,” the “Dungeon Masters Guide” and the “Monster Manual” are necessary.  Books like “Tome and Blood” and all the class builder books do help but are strictly optional.  As such they are a kind of “crunch light” game mechanic.  The same is true for the “Psionics Handbook,” “Deities and Demigods,” “Manual of the Planes” and the “Epic Level Handbook.” They all help the game, they are more game mechanics – i.e. “crunch” – than they are superfluous story – i.e. “cream” – but at the end of the day they are all still optional game mechanics – “crunch light” to coin a term.   

The same will be true for the forthcoming “Monster Manual II,” the “Book of Vile Darkness” and “Savage Species.”  They will help the game, they will be more game mechanics – “crunch” – than superfluous story – “cream” – but at the end of the day they will still be optional game mechanics – “crunch light.”   

After the “Players Guide,” the “Dungeon Masters Guide,” the “Monster Manual,” the “Psionics Handbook,” “Deities and Demigods,” the “Manual of the Planes,” the “Epic Level Handbook,” the “Monster Manual II,” the “Book of Vile Darkness” and “Savage Species,” what other books – even optional game mechanics/“crunch light” books – can be done? (This does not include pre-prepared and pre-canned adventures modules.)

After these ten book are published, there will be dozens of playable races, dozens of playable classes and prestige classes, hundreds of spell, hundreds of feats and probably thousands of magical items ranging from the great to the small.  Everything from good to evil to arcane magic to divine magic to psioncis to fist fighting to castle building and beyond will have been covered.

What else can be made - even optional game mechanics/“crunch light” books – before it begins to become redundant? This is not a rhetorical question.

What else can be made - even optional game mechanics/“crunch light” books – that will not start to belabor the point? This is not a rhetorical question.

What else can be made - even optional game mechanics/“crunch light” books – that will not stretch thin the game mechanic, customer plausibility and the market? This is not a rhetorical question.

Point 2.
To reiterate, to Wall Street a 4% profit is an inexcusable failure because the “board of directors” had been counting on a 5% margin so much so that they went ahead and spent the 1% they did not (and would) not have. And if you want to refute this and to deny that it happens, then how can one explain WorldCom, Xerox, and Enron?

So, if the DMG and the PG and the MM made – hypothetically speaking – a 5% profit. However, the FRCS only made a 4% profit. By the standards of Wall Street, FRCS then is a failure. If further Realms books only make 2.5% profit or 2% profit then that is even worse. If Magic the Gathering and Pokiemon and the Harry Potter trading card game made a 10% profit, then the failure of the Forgotten Realms books becomes past being inexcusable and its time to schedule a trip to the slaughterhouse.

There will never be a way to make FRCS – or any setting for that matter – "profitable" in a way that makes the board of directors happy.  Because no setting can possibly live up to the sales standards set by the PG, the DMG and the MM – and that is so say nothing of the sales standards set by Magic the Gathering and Pokiemon and the Harry Potter trading card game.

Because that is the way the world works.


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## TiQuinn (Jul 16, 2002)

Sinistar said:
			
		

> *I am trying to think of a logical rules book left to be put out. I can think of minor books that would be best left to d20 (mass combat, equipment manuals) publishers. But I cannot think of a good solid need that 3E has left to print. *




I agree.  I think the issue is one of balance.  Crunchy bits are born from the fluff, not the other way around.

My ideal product:

An adventure module for 4 to 6 characters of levels 6 to 10 that includes a good dose of fluffy material along with the crunchy bits (PrCs, new monsters, new spells, new items, a new feat or skill here or there) that supports the adventure and the material.

The material is detailed yet not restrictive...it does not have world-changing events that are bound to disrupt a campaign....it assumes that once everything is said and done, the PCs are going to be primary movers and shakers in the adventure....it has plenty of plot hooks that can move players into conflict with other NPCs or organizations, or not.

But then again, adventure modules don't sell so I'm way off base here.


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## The Grumpy Celt (Jul 16, 2002)

Imnop said:
			
		

> *I don't know if you had a chance to read Green Knight's post on page six before it was edited by Morrus but it is what prompted me to post.  Not it's content but it's tone.*




No, but I gather it was nasty.


----------



## Sinistar (Jul 16, 2002)

Imnop, ignore the celt. He is grumpy after all...

I thought it was a great quote. Boo was the best part of that game!


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## Nathanael (Jul 16, 2002)

Once again, it's not about how crunchy or fluffy a book needs to be to sell well. The books sell and make a profit, that is not the problem. The Problem is how much profit is enough profit, 

The reason increasing profit needs to be made, as is evidenced by recent events, is not for the growth of the company, or even the stock held by the public. It is for the largess of the CEO and other company execs.

Seriously, you need to make serious cash to pay for executive compensation packages, defecit spending, lawyers to save their butts from Sexual Harassment/Equal Opportunity/Fair Trading violations and loans granted by one executive in the company to another so he can by a new 100 foot yacht, which he may or may not pay back.

This isn't about making a profit. The point is about the current business model needing to support the not so new corporate culture that consists of parasites that cannot be fired without sending the company into trouble. Read the latest issue of Forbes. The article on 'Bad Boys' will be enlightening, and also frightening, because you will get a glimpse of the real reason enough profit is never enough.


----------



## Coreyartus (Jul 16, 2002)

I've spent the last hour and a half reading this thread, and my emotions have ping-ponged back and forth from anger to frustration to elation to disgust to retrospection to deliberation...  and I've finally drawn some conclusions.  

Ultimately, the debate over the degree of crunchiness and fluffiness is a symptom of several larger concerns:  what is considered a quality product (content), who determines that definition (designer, executive, or consumer), and the impact of that definition (profit margin).  I think it's difficult to debate one topic without considering the others.

It seems many of the issues that have been discussed concerning WotC/Hasbro have been re-hashed over and over again for several years now, with no resolution in sight.  Most say it's the maga-lithic company's fault for not knowing about the industry and it's players, and some say it's the Open-Gaming License and it's continuing ripples of impact on the gaming industry...  Some could even say it's the blinded fan-consumer-designers that have lost all business sense in their zeal to create!  I think perhaps it's a combination of all of these factors to some degree or another.

In the end, though, the game we all love will survive.  The mega-lythic corporation will sell it in the end because they are blinded by their inability to see anything beyond their business concepts of profit and loss.  (We've had our WotC feast, now expect famine for a while.  Hasbro is just too big to know how to handle a niche industry like RPGs, and their hired guns are just that:  hired to emulate their kind of thinking.)  The game system will survive because the OGL has ensured we will continue to have supplements of some nature ad infinitum, crunchy and fluffy both.  And there will always be those who have the zeal and drive to share their creations with others who also have their same interests, whether their motive is profit or simply proliferation.

The real question is whether we are patient and wise enough to withstand the trials and tribulations that these inevitable fluctuations in our hobby/industry will have.  Product lines will come and go, sometimes returning and sometimes not.  As long as the industry operates under a business ethic, it will always be so.  Money and increasing profit margin are what drive the people in charge of the larger RPG companies right now, and until those unsavory elements burn themselves out and lose interest, we are at the mercy of their irrational judgments.  Some good things have come from those companies, but like all large corporations that merely market commodities regardless of what they are and ignore the essence of why they produce the product in the first place, they are now strangling themselves to stay on top. 

It is up to us as consumers and designers to keep the torch alive, to continue to support the hobby we all so very very evidently love.  Ultimately, our efforts in buying (and publishing) what we feel in our hearts is quality--that's what will ensure that products that are all degrees of crunchy/fluffy will continue to be seen on shelves.  

Unfortunately, for a while, those items that will never see the light of day from the large profit-driven coporations will be sacrificed.  I, personally, would rather have those special supplements produced by people who care, with the profit going to people who encourage quality in RPGs.  It scares me to have my hobby in the hands of people who base all their decisions on profitability.  But, perhaps in a new incarnation, when there are new or different executives, we will be able to enjoy the best of both worlds.  But are we patient enough to wait?  TSR, WotC...  perhaps the third time's the charm?


----------



## Darraketh (Jul 16, 2002)

I like many here lost touch with the game during the 2e days. So I missed "The Savage Frontier." Someone in this tread mentioned that this was a book done right. So I downloaded it from the WOTC site. What I found most interesting was this quote, under the title *"Using This Book"*



> "This book is intended to be read by Dungeon Masters only. Much of the information contained within would not be known to players and their characters under any circumstances."




Putting a directive like that in a product is sure to increase the enjoyment of a game, using the material, for the players while limiting sales of the product.


----------



## Wicht (Jul 16, 2002)

Sinistar said:
			
		

> *I disagree with you in part Wicht. But not entirely. I think that the rules system runs its course far before the setting material does. 2e was dead as a game to put out new rules for long before they stopped printing FR material.
> 
> I am trying to think of a logical rules book left to be put out. I can think of minor books that would be best left to d20 (mass combat, equipment manuals) publishers. But I cannot think of a good solid need that 3E has left to print. *




I think what I was trying to say was that the marketing of any particular book or product does not ensure the life of the game.  If they stopped making monopoly games, noone would say the game was dead.  I personally have five monopoly games at least on my game shelf and will play it regardless of whether the company produces it or not.  Same with 3e.  Even if WotC went belly up, as long as there is a steady fan base playing the game it would be hard to pronounce the game dead.  While we may not need new rule books that does not mean that we cannot continue to play on our own.  The game has hardly run its course in my circle.


----------



## Kaptain_Kantrip (Jul 16, 2002)

die_kluge said:
			
		

> *Kaptain Kantrip and I agree here (*gasp*). *




MWAHAHAHAHAHAHA! I'll get you and your little dog, too!


----------



## The Grumpy Celt (Jul 16, 2002)

Sinistar said:
			
		

> *Eric, my response on the Silver Marches is sort of mixed. *




This is my response as well. There are aspects I like and aspects I dislike and aspects about which I am ambivalent.  I hope to post a review soon.



			
				Sinistar said:
			
		

> * The model seems to be going to the Magic:the Gathering model that I really loathe. "Hmm, expansion has stopped selling. Ok pump out the new expansion with the same material just re-arranged. Oh and throw a different artist at it." *




I worry about this too.  About existing setting being dropped in favor of the company doing their “one or two books” setting – Like Coc and WoT - each year.  It could even become rather crass is Hasbro forced WotC to start doing only movie-tie-ins.


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## neroden (Jul 16, 2002)

*Margins... stupid.*

The real problem is that "maximizing margins" is a *stupid* business plan for a publishing business.

I repeat, a *stupid* business plan.

You can't expect that any given book will have the same sales as any previous book.  Book sales aren't predictable in that manner.  And the market is inherently fragmented; most books will only sell to a particular submarket, not to "all readers".

This is akin to the insanity experienced by many major publishers when they decided that they would only publish blockbusters.  Great margins!  Sucky profits!

The majority of the profits in the publishing industry are in 'middle margin' books, which make a decent profit.  By abandoning anything with less than stellar margins, you're abandoning about 80% of the market.

And nobody would argue that aiming to reduce your market share was, generally, good business.

Perhaps the correct argument is "We need these lower margin books in order to maintain market share."  Because it's true.


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## Sholari (Jul 16, 2002)

I am an MBA as well as someone who has played RPGs for about 15 years, giving me some perspective from both sides.  I agree with Eric Noah wholeheartedly that this situation really boils down to players and DMs.  Your typical gaming group on average probably has about five players for every DM with perhaps one alternate dungeon master.  Simple economics will dictate that that a DM-oriented book is only going to do about 20% the sales of a core rulebook.

Wizards of the Coast has done a good job of creating a flexible and well-balanced game system.  Its been great to see some of the creativity in some of the rules supplements, but the sheer number of extra feats, prestige classes, etc. have really reached their saturation point.  Furthermore, with every new supplement I have to worry about how this affects game balance, so it is more of a headache now than it is worth.   I do not plan buying any more rules supplements, unless there is a really compelling reason.  My players can buy new ones but I will not let them use it in my campaign.  What Wizards of the Coast has done a poor job of is support for the dungeon master.  That “fluff” stuff as it is called provides important material for me as a dungeon master.  

I am a person without a ton of time to plan out a game session yet will not run a game unless it is quality.  The DM-oriented materials provide economic way for me to put together a game without having to spend a ton of time on it.  I simply weave together “fluff” stuff from modules, Dungeon magazine, and a good campaign world to create a great campaign.  If the players do something I don’t expect during a game session then I have more materials to weave in to make the appropriate adjustments.  I buy these DM products based on two factors.  I look for the quality of ideas within the RPG product and how flexible it is to integrate this stuff with my current campaign.  The Forgotten Realms was good campaign world because it was generic enough that I could take the Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh or the Slavelord modules or any other of my previous materials and integrate them in … but also interesting/quality/unique enough that I actually want to use the Forgotten Realms.

Now I wouldn’t say I am representative of all DMs out there, but I am someone who has probably spent thousands of dollars on D&D products.  There are some DMs have the time to come up with their own stuff, but there are others like me who rely on a steady stream of DM-oriented quality products.  

The current Wizards of the Coast strategy is not a very good one, because it provides good support for players but not DMs.  This may just be a unique case but I recently found a group of players who could not find a DM.  None of the players from within this group was willing to DM either, so for the last couple months the group has sat idle.  How long before this group of players starts to lose interest in the game altogether?  This may not hurt sales for Wizards of the Coast in the short run on a product by product basis but it will hurt sales in the long run from an overall system-wide basis.

Just because DMs do not generate the revenues that players do, doesn’t mean that they should be ignored.  DMs are very important influencers (opinion leaders) about what the players play.  If I feel like a game system just isn’t working for me, I will try something new with my players.  If we all like it and it lasts we will start gravitating to that new system, meaning my players stop buying stuff from the old system and start buying stuff form the new system.  The point, though, is roleplaying games aren’t like other games and Hasbro doesn’t understand this.  

Roleplaying products form an overall game system, just like computer components like your processor and disk drive make up your computer.  It takes the right balance of these components (rules, story, setting, action) to make a good system.  Some of these components are not very profitable and some are much more profitable, but if some aspect of these components is seriously lacking the overall computer then it can seriously impair the computer system.

The fundamental problem boils down to this.  The hurdle rates which Hasbro uses to measure their other more self-contained, insular products (Monopoly, Clue, etc.) are not properly aligned to measure the complexities of a roleplaying game system.  How badly Monopoly sells may not have an influence on how well my Clue game sells.  Therefore setting hurdle rates at the product level is not a bad idea for these sorts of games.  However, product-level metrics are not such a good idea for inter-related roleplaying products.  Maybe Product A does not sell as well but perhaps its real value is in enhancing sales of product B, C, and D as well as helping sustain my overall brand.  These case-by-case product-based metrics cannot truly measure this and force managers into bad decisions.   Therefore Wizards of the Coast needs to make the case to Hasbro management for metrics that are more in line with the realities of the D&D game.  There is nothing worse for a company’s long term future than using the wrong metrics.  I suggest management at Wizards of the Coast read “The Goal” by Eliyahu Goldratt.  It provides a good example of the problems caused by looking at independent metrics without regard interrelationship between these metrics.


----------



## neroden (Jul 16, 2002)

You said it better than I did.   The computer analogy is rather good, too.

We're all in favor of a profitable D&D division.

The short-term focus on individual products' profit margins is detrimental to the profitability of the line as a whole.

Giving Hasbro a set of metrics which are actually appropriate to the business might get their heads pointing in the right direction... the metrics used to determine whether to keep making "Clue" aren't appropriate for determining what to put out for D&D.


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## Coreyartus (Jul 16, 2002)

Well said, Sholari!  That is indeed a good idea!  RPGs just aren't the same as any other games that Hasbro is selling.  Nor are they like any other book that we can pick up in an airport bookstore. They straddle a middle-ground that is unique to itself, I think.  And new methods of evaluating success and failure are sorely needed.

But after about 20 years of trying to find a niche for RPG's and the products that support them, and all the mistakes that have been made over those years...the bad marketing ploys, the oversaturation, the undersaturation, the up-and-down quality...  Hasn't Hasbro learned ANYTHING?  Who do we need to wake up so attention can be paid?  How many times does a dearly beloved product line (whether it's Greyhawk, FR, or D&D in general) have to be abused before someone finally stands up for it?


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## Sinistar (Jul 16, 2002)

So we were on the same page Wicht. Sorry I misunderstood. 

I think the idea of the correct metric for WOTC may be valid. But I also think we are probably not seeing the full picture. Probably no one but the hated Bean-Counters are seeing the full picture and that will certainly skew opinion. It might be they are taking such things into consideration as interconnectivity. But we just do not see the formulas. 

I am willing to give them the benefit of a doubt. But if I had my money to spend from this weekend again, I would not have bothered with the ELH. I still would have bought the Silver Marches. But that is just one person, in Dallas, the ELH sold out in several game stores I went to this weekend (3) but there were still copies of SM on the shelves.  As can be seen by any discussion on the board it is hard to find two people who game who agree on what needs to be made next. The full range of love to hate is expressed on any product that comes out. So I can see the difficulty in a corporation trying to figure out why books sell or not.


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## Ancalagon (Jul 16, 2002)

2 coments:

First, yes, there are too many feats and PrC as it is.  Just look at archers... there are 4 archer prestige class, that I know of, in WotC books alone.

Second, while there are more players than DM, DMs make the game happen and tend to buy more books.

Ancalagon


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## Zappo (Jul 16, 2002)

Sholari said:
			
		

> *I am an MBA as well as someone who has played RPGs for about 15 years, giving me some perspective from both sides.  I agree with Eric Noah wholeheartedly that this situation really boils down to players and DMs.  Your typical gaming group on average probably has about five players for every DM with perhaps one alternate dungeon master.  Simple economics will dictate that that a DM-oriented book is only going to do about 20% the sales of a core rulebook.*



I dunno. In my group of six-seven people, we only bought one copy of the PHB. One of us bought another, but only because he plays in another campaign with another group - and in that group, that PHB is the only one too.

Of course, we are all poor students and 20$ are something for us.


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## Darraketh (Jul 16, 2002)

Coreyartus said:
			
		

> *Hasn't Hasbro learned ANYTHING*




Uh... no. Not _yet_ anyway. 

Hasbro bought a toy company that previously bought a publishing company.  IMO publishing is not a feat they possess yet. Right now they are enrolled in the school of hard knocks. They'll learn. FR may be licensed off but once they figure out how to run an RPG publishing company...


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## kenjib (Jul 16, 2002)

Orcus said:
			
		

> *
> PS--as for buying D&D, no thanks. I'll just take the Open Game Content, rename it Dragons & Dungeons, and throw more cool 1E feel back in the rules and republish it. License agreements? Puhleeeez. And while I am dreaming I would find Dave Trampier and drag him out of hiding to do the interior art!  *




Whoa -- you guys are going to buy Hackmaster?  Zounds!

...minutes later...

Mr. Roper leans over the sink drain pipe and mis-hears people talking upstairs.

*bewildered look*

"Chrissy's PREGNANT???"

...a few more minutes later...

Oh, Dave *TRAMPIER*, not Dave *KENZER*.

P.S.  I agree that FR should be spun off into or sold to a smaller company for which the current sales figures would be considered a wild success rather than a failure.  These products need to be produced in order to drive sales of the core books for WotC/Hasbro.


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## sfgiants (Jul 16, 2002)

After reading through many, many pages of this post, one thought came to me: can't we please stop with the metaphors? It was great for one post, ok for 5, ridiculous for 10... Let's just call em Wizards of the Coast, Forgotten Realms, and Dungeons and Dragons etc. It just makes it a little easier to read, and it halts some of the questionable creativity


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## Kaptain_Kantrip (Jul 17, 2002)

sfgiants said:
			
		

> *After reading through many, many pages of this post, one thought came to me: can't we please stop with the metaphors? It was great for one post, ok for 5, ridiculous for 10... Let's just call em Wizards of the Coast, Forgotten Realms, and Dungeons and Dragons etc. It just makes it a little easier to read, and it halts some of the questionable creativity   *




I thought it was stupid from the beginning, and didn't use them in my posts. I'm a rebel, dammit!


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## Darraketh (Jul 17, 2002)

I wonder how all this will effect the production of modules?


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## Kaptain_Kantrip (Jul 17, 2002)

There will be no more standard (cheap) modules. Only mega-modules that cost $30-$40 and are lame hack-n-slash fests like "Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil". All modules of shorter length will be relegated to the waste heap of bad ideas (and pretty maps) that is DUNGEON magazine. 

Trust me on this. I may not work for Wizards, but Miss Cleo gave me this information on good authority from the spirit world.


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## Zulkir (Jul 17, 2002)

*SRD*



			
				ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> *Anthony - regarding the SRD question I asked a page or so back...? *




Sorry CH, meant to answer that. We hired an intern to get us caught up on the SRD. He is currently sitting in a little cube slitting envelopes. So as soon as we get all the entries processed we will set him on that task.

AV


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## ColonelHardisson (Jul 17, 2002)

Thanks, Anthony.


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## rounser (Jul 17, 2002)

> All modules of shorter length will be relegated to the waste heap of bad ideas...that is DUNGEON magazine.



Again, Kaptain, your views and mine are diametrically opposed.


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## jaerdaph (Jul 17, 2002)

A very sick part of me wants to give Kaptain Kantrip a copy of the Hasbro annual stockholders' report and have him comment on the editing.  In multiple threads.

 

(I loves ya, Kaptain, I really do


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## Kaptain_Kantrip (Jul 17, 2002)

jaerdaph said:
			
		

> *A very sick part of me wants to give Kaptain Kantrip a copy of the Hasbro annual stockholders' report and have him comment on the editing.  In multiple threads.
> 
> 
> 
> (I loves ya, Kaptain, I really do  *





Aw! I love you guys, too! Let's never fight again. 

DUNGEON, for me, is full of bad ideas, or good ideas badly mangled, or some combination in-between. Rarely something decent will crop up, but I only buy it for the maps (or the Polyhedron), because I automatically assume all the adventures will stink. That way, I'm not disappointed when they inevitably do.


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## MerricB (Jul 17, 2002)

*Small adventures?*

Personally, I think Dungeon does a great job of presenting the smaller - and not so small - adventures. Why do you need additional modules after that? Just for the really big ones, really. Dungeon has the advantage of being a regular publication, with more likelihood of breaking even or doing well than stand-alone modules, that can vary widely in sales.

For other small modules, I'm currently investigating those produced by Necromancer Games. Call me a 1E fan if you will...

Cheers!


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## Kaptain_Kantrip (Jul 17, 2002)

Okay, here are some recent horrible DUNGEON adventures: 

The Githyanki Astral Citadel hackfest.
The 24th level sperm whale druid attacking a town.

Interestingly enough, both of these crap-tacular adventures had excellent, highly yoinkable maps, preventing them from being something other than a complete waste of space.


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## rounser (Jul 17, 2002)

What was wrong with the whale druid one?  I haven't played it, but it looked sound enough.

Interestingly - as I understand it - both of these adventures constituted previews of a sort (of the Stronghold book and ELH, respectively).


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## Andy_Collins (Jul 17, 2002)

*DM Support*



			
				Sholari said:
			
		

> * What Wizards of the Coast has done a poor job of is support for the dungeon master.  *




I'm curious: what's your definition of "support"? 'Cause it seems to me like there are an awful lot of "DM support" products on the shelves.

Just for the sake of argument, let's completely ignore any "support" afforded to the DM by the Player's Handbook, the five classbooks, and the "player" chapters of the Psionics Handbook and Epic Level Handbook. And also ignore any "support" that might be gained from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting and its following products, as well as from Oriental Adventures.

Dungeon Master's Guide, 256 pp. The granddaddy of 'em all.
Monster Manual, 224 pp. Enough monsters to populate any campaign.
Monsters of Faerun, 96 pp. But just in case MM wasn't enough...
Deities & Demigods, 224 pp. How to use gods in a campaign, including creating your own.
Manual of the Planes, 224 pp. How to use the planes in a campaign, including creating your own.
Eight "Adventure Path" modules plus Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil, total 480 pp. More than a full campaign's worth of adventures.
Book of Challenges, 128 pp. But just in case the modules weren't enough...
Stronghold Builder's Guidebook, 128 pp. Unlimited dungeons.

Throw in chapters 7 & 8 of the Psionics Handbook (35 pp.) and chapters 3-6 of the Epic Level Handbook (184 pp.), which present the DM with a wealth of support material for these two optional rulesets.

That's approximately 1,978 pages of products directed primarily (if not wholly) at the DM, or about 82 pages per month of the lifespan of 3E D&D. Almost three pages per day, if you're reading 24-7.

And don't forget Dragon Magazine and Dungeon Magazine. That's another 100+ pages or so every month (or roughly 2,500 pages in the past two years), plenty of which is directed primarily at the DM--new monsters, tactics, organizations, rule variants, Dungeoncraft, and, of course, adventures. 

Forgive me if I'm being obtuse, but...what's this support you're looking for?


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## Kaptain_Kantrip (Jul 17, 2002)

rounser said:
			
		

> *What was wrong with the whale druid one? *




It was about a WHALE druid.


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## Zulkir (Jul 17, 2002)

*Re: Margins... stupid.*



			
				neroden said:
			
		

> *The real problem is that "maximizing margins" is a *stupid* business plan for a publishing business.
> 
> I repeat, a *stupid* business plan.
> 
> ...



Except we are talking about RPGs - a game - not novels. In the novel area you are correct - but even there you can target novel lines that are not making their margins. On the RPG end we can predict within 10% what a product will do. If we say we are going to sell 100 units in a year we will sell somewhere within 90 to 110 very consistently (we get surprised on occasion but not often).

AV


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## seankreynolds (Jul 17, 2002)

Hey, I just want to say that I've been pretty harsh on Anthony, and I apologize for that. I think his job sucks and I'd never want to do it, so you have to give him credit for that.


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## Zulkir (Jul 17, 2002)

*Thanks*

Sean,
Thanks I appreciate it. Just so you all know Sean was one of the guys I was the most excited to meet when i started working here at WotC.

Av


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## MerricB (Jul 17, 2002)

*Re: DM Support*



			
				Andy_Collins said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I'm curious: what's your definition of "support"? 'Cause it seems to me like there are an awful lot of "DM support" products on the shelves.
> 
> Forgive me if I'm being obtuse, but...what's this support you're looking for? *




You left out *Enemies and Allies*, Andy. 

Couldn't agree with you more - there's actually _too much_ DM stuff for me to absorb; much of it extremely good in quality.

Not counting the other d20 products, either.

(Is this the WotC designers' hour on ENworld? )

Cheers!


----------



## rounser (Jul 17, 2002)

All IMO, and how these resources serve my needs as a DM:


> Dungeon Master's Guide, 256 pp. The granddaddy of 'em all.



Good theoretical advice - but advice is still just advice.  I still have to spend a lot of time in preparation.


> Monster Manual, 224 pp. Enough monsters to populate any campaign.
> Monsters of Faerun, 96 pp. But just in case MM wasn't enough...



I disagree, a lot.  Don't like the selection, and still remember what was available in past editions, but now no longer.  (Yay for Creature Catalog.)


> Deities & Demigods, 224 pp. How to use gods in a campaign, including creating your own.
> Manual of the Planes, 224 pp. How to use the planes in a campaign, including creating your own.



Ephemera, IMO.  Don't need god stats, don't need the planes - have more important things to focus on.


> Eight "Adventure Path" modules plus Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil, total 480 pp. More than a full campaign's worth of adventures.



Adventure Path is a railroad of one adventure after another, and Return is a big megadungeon.  Neither constitutes the kind of campaign I want to run.


> Book of Challenges, 128 pp. But just in case the modules weren't enough...



A good resource that saves actual campaign work, IMO.  A winner.


> Stronghold Builder's Guidebook, 128 pp. Unlimited dungeons.



A DM has more important things to concentrate on than castle design, IMO, but it could come in handy.


> Throw in chapters 7 & 8 of the Psionics Handbook (35 pp.) and chapters 3-6 of the Epic Level Handbook (184 pp.), which present the DM with a wealth of support material for these two optional rulesets.



Neither of which I'm interested in.


> That's approximately 1,978 pages of products directed primarily (if not wholly) at the DM, or about 82 pages per month of the lifespan of 3E D&D. Almost three pages per day, if you're reading 24-7.



Not much of it saves time in campaign preparation.  Advice is all well and good, but it does little to cut down on preparation time.


> Dungeon Magazine.



Yup, a biggy.  Saves a lot of work.  Another winner.


> Dungeoncraft



Gets you thinking, but advice is still just advice.

No doubt you'll differ in tastes, but that's my take.


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## Zaukrie (Jul 17, 2002)

OMG, I finally made it to the end, and SKR and Zulkir are kissing and making up?

All that for a love fest at the end! 

Seriously, I can't remember the poster's name, but I too am an MBA of some 11 years, who has been playing for more than 25 years.  I work for a big company like Hasbro, that owns lots of smaller (or not so small) companies that constantly makes decisions that I don't agree with.  But, you know what, they are a multi-billion dollar company for a reason, I just can't always figure it out.

For all of you that think companies and bean counters only care about CEOs, I think you are wrong.  Yes, there are a lot of companies not run for the long run, but you know what, every one of you has a computer (or uses one at work, or...), you all seem to see movies, read books, eat, where do you think that stuff comes from?  From companies.  And, all those little publishers out there that do this in their spare time, if they didn't work for compaines, that made money, they couldn't eat, and have computers to make games that we all love.

Yes, I am concerned about the future (short-term) of D&D.  But, let's not all be like the bean counters.  I believe that there are enough people out there buying D&D products that even if Hasbro does mess it up, it will return.

Anthony, thanks for OGL and D20.  Sean, thanks for all of your great creative work, and your web site.

Hmm, that turned out way longer than I thought, sorry if I bored anyone.


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## rounser (Jul 17, 2002)

> It was about a WHALE druid.



Actually, this was one of the unusual combinations of class levels with a critter that really worked, conceptually and aesthetically speaking, IMO.  YMMV, as it seems it does.


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## JeffB (Jul 17, 2002)

*Re: DM Support*



			
				Andy_Collins said:
			
		

> *
> 
> 
> Dungeon Master's Guide, 256 pp. The granddaddy of 'em all.
> ...




Andy,

I'll give ya the DMG and MM...however those are CORE books...they are needed to run the game..that's not "support" That's providing the rules...

MoF...yeah I guess...although I can get conversions of monsters for free over at the CC site....

Deities and Demigods...nope...That's a book of rules with little support...how many DM's need STATS for Gods? Creating A God's stats is not support...that's rules-crunch...

Manual of the Planes...PERFECT example of what many DMS are looking for...a little Fluff, some Crunch but mostly a SET OF TOOLS for DM to use to create his own cosmology or utilize the "Core" cosmology..

modules...Yes that's DM support...however I personally feel that's an area that WOTC should stay away from...The D20 companies clearly outshine WOTC in that regard...

RttToEE...Mega-dungeon crawl...yes it can set up a long campaign...See the above answer for modules...

Book Of Challenges..yes...that's a cool thing....

Stronghold BuildersGuidebook...too narrow of a focus...that's like saying that the 2E Complete Ninjas Handbook is great DM support..yeah I guess..If you REALLY like Ninjas..

Dragon & Dungeon....well.. Dungeon..Yes...that's support...Dragon...nope...barring a  few good articles by Greenwood and Laws and a couple of others..Dragon has mostly been crunch/rules stuff for players with an emphasis on themes to push whatever particular product WOTC is peddling that month...Most of them are a waste on me....I mean C.mon..the  Stronghold builders guide AND a whole issue of Dragon devoted to it... that's ridiculous...


So not including the MotP and the BoC...I don't see it...

Books like the MotP which are primarily TOOLS with some fluff and crunch to get my creative juices going are a perfect example of what I need as DM support.....I don't need stat block after stat block of monsters, Stats for Gods my players will never meet, whiz-bang feat power-combos, and yet even more dozens of bizarre PrClasses...That's stuff primarily for players to gawk over over and say "I want this"...

IMO of course,


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## Zot_Wyzo (Jul 17, 2002)

*Re: Re: Margins... stupid.*



			
				Zulkir said:
			
		

> *
> Except we are talking about RPGs - a game - not novels. In the novel area you are correct - but even there you can target novel lines that are not making their margins. On the RPG end we can predict within 10% what a product will do. If we say we are going to sell 100 units in a year we will sell somewhere within 90 to 110 very consistently (we get surprised on occasion but not often).
> 
> AV *




DANG! I wish the bean counters at the company I work for could do that well estimating sales of products! Heck, I even wish they could estimate within 50%!!!

We've produced product that cost so much in development, then turned out to sell so few units it doesn't even pay the salary of one support technician (we're into software development). Fortunately, the bread and butter product makes up for these losers.

If we were that successful in predicting sales of a new product only 50% of the time, we'd be worlds ahead of where we are!

My hat is toipped to you, man. You've got it going on!


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## Ds Da Man (Jul 17, 2002)

Well, I for one think that only a few things have been left out by WotC, and that was a good set of mass battle rules, and more computer tools. By computer tools, what I mean is something akin to the FR Atlas (which I do like), but more "interactive". You know, click on an area, the view explodes, then click on a town, and it enlarges, and actually be able to click on houses, shops, etc., and actually have a fellow pop-up that will offer items (random or pre-picked by DM). You good have a tool-set that allows you to build your own interactive towns and such. Preprogrammed little shopkeepers and bar wenches. Maybe offer adventure module and city expansions for it. This would be the true help a working DM could use.

For the record, I think WotC has put out some amazing stuff, with a lot of variety. I love Star Wars, D&D, and CoC. Their selection has been wonderful, and I have bought quite a bit. Gracious amigos!


----------



## The Grumpy Celt (Jul 17, 2002)

Zaukrie said:
			
		

> *
> For all of you that think companies and bean counters only care about CEOs, I think you are wrong...
> ...you all seem to see movies, read books, eat, where do you think that stuff comes from?  From companies. *




While it is true that all - or at least most - of our material goods come from large companies, this is no way negates our rights to question or critize them.  This is a capitilist society not a fuedal one.  Companies are not our lords and masters - no matter how much they might wish otherwise.



			
				Zaukrie said:
			
		

> *
> I believe that there are enough people out there buying D&D products that even if Hasbro does mess it up, it will return.*




The central question of this thread is not "Will D&D go away?"

However, a central question to this thread is "Will the Forgotten Realms go away?" becuase it only made a 4% profit when Hasbro had counted on a 5% profit.


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## Coreyartus (Jul 17, 2002)

I don't know squat about business, profit margins or the like.  I'm just a game player.  But I don't understand, and will never understand, why it is necessary to continually make a bigger and bigger profit off of every item sold year after year.  

I worked for a long time in a major fast food restaurant franchise store, and they made no profit off of the food they sold.  Nothing.  The company stayed afloat (and thrived fantastically) because they made their money selling the soda that went with the food.  The bulk of the items sold were food items, but that didn't matter--they knew they had to sell the food so people would buy the drinks.  They would never ever have dreamed that they actually could make a profit off of every item sold--it would have been impossible and the company would have gone out of business instantly.  They covered their costs with the food, and that was enough.

I don't know how things work at large corporations like Hasbro, or what their expectations are when they release a product.  It seems to me though, that if WotC products aren't pulling down a large enough profit margin to keep them happy, they should consider not the content of the product (which they could easily evaluate based on the plentitude of RPG sites that offer reviews and our own verbose opinions on such venues as this one) but their own methods of evaluating success.  There are plenty of companies out there that are happily doing very well without having to continually rake in mounds of money.  What was Hasbro thinking, that RPG's were going to be the next Barbie?  Get real!  It seems to me, IMHO, that the problem lies not with the Forgotten Realms crunchy vs. fluffy conundrum, but with a company whose bottom line is a profit margin that is unrealistic for the industry it's dabbling in.


----------



## THG Mage (Jul 17, 2002)

*However*

After looking over this immense thread, I felt I needed to at least stop by and chime in.  I think we are all missing the greater point, the overwhelming question that we all have in this and all matters.  Forgotten Rums, Donuts, Munches etc are all well and good but the true question is:

Hows the setting search going?  Any updates?  Are we ahead of schedule?  Information and news please AV?  Any little glimmer of news would be appreciated.


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## Chairman Aeon (Jul 17, 2002)

*Re: Bean counters*



			
				Zulkir said:
			
		

> *Now about this pastry nonsense. I want to ask this simple question: You are in charge of a recipe business. You are informed that your recipe books must make a certain profit margin. You have two main lines we'll call them Core Donuts and Forgotten Rum. CD sells alot better than FR. You need to increase your margins.
> 1) You can lay off some elves and get the remaining elves to work harder. (lower your costs keep revenue the same)
> 2) You can increase your prices and piss off your Gnome customers. (keep costs the same, raise revenue - hopefully unless the Gnomes rebel)
> 3) You can cancel the FR line, lay off some elves take the revenue hit but make your margins. (lower revenue but lower costs more)
> ...




Well Tony, I can call you Tony right?  =J

In all honesty the best option is (3).  Option (4) requires watering down the Rums so it isn't really Rum, but grog.  The people who don't want and rum will complain about the rum in the grog.  You may reach a point where you are labelling water as Rum and the rum fans won't buy it because they see there is no Rum and the non-Rum people don't buy it because it's labelled Rum.

So put FR on the shelf and do a campaign book for an older setting or a new one.  Give it a 50/50 fluff and crunch setting books.  Maybe a perfect bound monsters and magic books.  Put out a trilogy of novels and then do another setting.

And by the way I have a degree in accounting and I never counted a single bean (unless it was a chocolate covered coffee bean) in my life.

I.


----------



## J Lloyd (Jul 17, 2002)

*Re: DM Support*

[Andy_Collins]

"I'm curious: what's your definition of 'support'? [sic] 'Cause it seems to me like there are an awful lot of 'DM support' products on the shelves."

"Just for the sake of argument, let's completely ignore any "support" afforded to the DM by the...the five classbooks, and the "player" chapters of the Psionics Handbook and Epic Level Handbook." 

Let's, indeed, since (1) the class books are not really DM support products (they are player support), and (2) as a DM, I would not buy these books to get help in DMing D&D games. I would buy them to get help in DMing selective sorts of issues within the game, and these issues are "add-on" issues (you know, like adding psionics to the base game, or adding "epic" level play, whatever that might mean). You are adding a different twist or dimension to the game so obviously you must add-on different ways for DMs to handle them.  

"And also ignore any "support" that might be gained from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting and its following products, as well as from Oriental Adventures."

Indeed, since as a DM that runs my own campaign, I would never think about getting these products to help support my DMing efforts for my world.

...

"That's approximately 1,978 pages of products directed primarily (if not wholly) at the DM, or about 82 pages per month of the lifespan of 3E D&D. Almost three pages per day, if you're reading 24-7."

And most of it is not useful to most DMs. Or let me put it in other words, most of it is material that most DMs do not or cannot or will not use for their own campaigns. So you have a great deal of DMs who could do without a good deal of the material.

Why is it that a DM's Guide can be written, but a DM's Supplemental Guide can't be written? There' has to be a 1000 books that places a host of uninteresting or non-useful things for a DM into a book full of player support. 

J. Lloyd


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## ColonelHardisson (Jul 17, 2002)

rounser said:
			
		

> *don't need the planes - have more important things to focus on.
> 
> *




Manual of the Planes is about far more than the planes. That aspect of it can either be ignored, or, more usefully, used for examples of how various worlds can be created. The material it has helps provide actual in-game effects for narrative design choices. It's one of the most singularly useful books I've ever seen in regards to helping DMs design unique campaign worlds. Even better, the actual crunchy bits (as well as the fluff) provide tons of inspiration for even more radical customization of individual campaign worlds.

Besides the 3 core books, MotP is, in my opinion, the most important hardback done for D&D.


----------



## Chairman Aeon (Jul 17, 2002)

*Re: Niche markets*



			
				Allensh said:
			
		

> *Maybe Hasbro needs to realize that they bought into a niche industry, and that it might not get all that better. Trying to market D&D to the masses does not work.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...




You bring up a point.  How many copies of Monopoly, Clue or Risk are sold yearly?  While I see lots of copies of board games, they aren't exactly flying off the shelves at Toys'R'Us.  On the flipside they must sell well enough to have a whole wall dedicated to themselves.

I.


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## rounser (Jul 17, 2002)

Still not interested Colonel - I think worldbuilding on a macro scale is often a waste of time in many cases, because, IME, little of it gets applied to the actual game...except to serve to build atmosphere or verisimilitude that there's an empire over there doing something, and a paragraph or two serves me for that, or a published world such as FR.  I don't like "road movie" style campaigning very much, I guess.

I can run a campaign to the level of detail I prefer on an A4 page map 10s of miles in size, or an island 40 miles in radius in a published campaign world - and never want for more landmass.  But I'm not typical - you're right, the average DM appears to be a macro-level worldbuilder.....and in many cases, also in my experience, more thorough and focused a worldbuilder than an adventurebuilder or campaignbuilder for that matter!


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## ColonelHardisson (Jul 17, 2002)

Kaptain_Kantrip said:
			
		

> *
> 
> It was about a WHALE druid.  *




That's it? That's your main criteria for it being bad? We play a game about happy elves and grumpy dwarves in a land of magic and fairies, where evil wizards who are dead trouble the land, and a whale druid is eye-roll worthy?

So, which is geekier: Old Star Trek, or Next Generation Star Trek? Same kind of argument.


----------



## ColonelHardisson (Jul 17, 2002)

rounser said:
			
		

> *Still not interested Colonel - I think worldbuilding on a macro scale is often a waste of time in many cases, because, IME, little of it gets applied to the actual game...except to serve to build atmosphere or verisimilitude that there's an empire over there doing something, and a paragraph or two serves me for that, or a published world such as FR.  I don't like "road movie" style campaigning very much, I guess.
> 
> I can run a campaign to the level of detail I prefer on an A4 page map 10s of miles in size, or an island 40 miles in radius in a published campaign world - and never want for more landmass.  But I'm not typical - you're right, the average DM appears to be a worldbuilder.....and in many cases, also in my experience, more thorough and focused a worldbuilder than an adventurebuilder or campaignbuilder for that matter!  *




It really does provide for the small details, and for mechanics that would affect PCs all the time - for example, worlds can be aligned towards evil or good, and depending on how strongly, the PCs will feel the effects all the time. If you're at all familiar with TORG, the world laws and axioms are similar to what MotP contains.


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## Olive (Jul 17, 2002)

*Re: Re: DM Support*



			
				JeffB said:
			
		

> *Stronghold BuildersGuidebook...too narrow of a focus...that's like saying that the 2E Complete Ninjas Handbook is great DM support..yeah I guess..If you REALLY like Ninjas..*




of course, cos almost no campaigns have buildings in them...


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## MerricB (Jul 17, 2002)

The feeling I'm getting from the nay-sayers here is that "DM support" is what they need for their individual campaign.

Forget what other DMs need. If it isn't useful for their campaign, it shouldn't have been printed.

I'm currently running a Greyhawk campaign that is based partly on ideas from Gygax's _Gord the Rogue_ books. The most recent adventure took place on the Plane of Shadow, where the PCs were rescuing the demi-god Zuoken from the Scarlet Brotherhood, with the aid of the Catlord.

They're now talking about setting up strongholds for themselves.

What books would I have liked for this section of the campaign?
* Manual of the Planes - I have it, and was very useful indeed.
* Deities & Demigods - useful in working out the abilities of the deities involved.
* Epic Level Handbook - it has the Catlord in it? Dammit! I wanted that book for this!
* Stronghold Builder's Guide - apart from the PCs' future plans, just for setting up the strongholds of the bad guys would have been good. 

There is a certain core to D&D and the way it is played. That involves dungeons, dragons, and PCs. That can be found in the three core rulebooks, funnily enough.

Everything after that will be off the core to some extent. Deities & Demigods, Manual of the Planes and Epic Level Handbook represent extensions of that core material that is common to many campaign.

Oriental Adventures is far enough aside that it only touches on this 'core' in a couple of places; FR & Greyhawk are much closer to the core.

Every DM needs to know how to run the game - thus the 3 core books. After that, the other books have limited appreciation.

* Some DMs never use a prepublished module.
* Some DMs never go to the planes.
* Some DMs have the gods as abstract beings.
* Some DMs don't use prestige classes.

Some DMs will probably not like _any_ other product from WotC, because they prefer to do it themselves. Nothing wrong with that. 

It would be far more constructive to explicitly detail what you would like to see in future WotC products, rather than bemoan the fact that the new ones aren't what you want.

Cheers!


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## rounser (Jul 17, 2002)

> Forget what other DMs need. If it isn't useful for their campaign, it shouldn't have been printed.



Utter nonsense.  No one said that.  Just because my tastes are not yours doesn't mean that your favourite products have no right to exist.


> It would be far more constructive to explicitly detail what you would like to see in future WotC products, rather than bemoan the fact that the new ones aren't what you want.



Read back, and you'll find that I've done exactly that, earlier in this thread.


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## Warchild (Jul 17, 2002)

Kaptain_Kantrip said:
			
		

> *Okay, here are some recent horrible DUNGEON adventures:
> The 24th level sperm whale druid attacking a town. *




So THATS where that last plot from the curent DM on rotation came from!!
I don't mind unique/wierd stuff. But a sperm whale Druid? No, sorry. As an entire group, we neatly sidestepped that plot hook, thank you. Some crap DON'T fly!! 
He got the "what you talking bout, Willis!!!" look from us. 

Though i think he has scarfed probably 3 or 4 plot/adventure from Dungeon. The other ones were pretty decent. A 60-80% success rate is pretty decent, i'd say.


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## Warchild (Jul 17, 2002)

ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> *Manual of the Planes is about far more than the planes. That aspect of it can either be ignored, or, more usefully, used for examples of how various worlds can be created. The material it has helps provide actual in-game effects for narrative design choices. It's one of the most singularly useful books I've ever seen in regards to helping DMs design unique campaign worlds. Even better, the actual crunchy bits (as well as the fluff) provide tons of inspiration for even more radical customization of individual campaign worlds.
> 
> Besides the 3 core books, MotP is, in my opinion, the most important hardback done for D&D. *




Testify, Colonel!! I couldn't agree more. I've had the book erich adventures that haven't had anything to do with the planes. On top of all the support it provides, it is a bonafide fun read!!!


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## Chairman Aeon (Jul 17, 2002)

Kaptain_Kantrip said:
			
		

> *Okay, here are some recent horrible DUNGEON adventures:
> 
> The 24th level sperm whale druid attacking a town.*




Uh, when did they bring out a D20 version of Blue Planet?  

I.


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## MerricB (Jul 17, 2002)

Very well - perhaps I've got it wrong.

Rounser, please define what you think DM support is.

(I bet we get differing views on it afterwards as well).

My take on it:

DM support is material that aids a DM run his game, whether by giving him new ideas, rules for new situations, or good advice as to what to do in difficult situations.


Not immediately related, but:

Classbooks are far more DM support than Player support, IMO. In an 'average' campaign - whatever that is, but assuming the model of 4 PCs, 1 DM, and 18 months - a player will have ONE character and have ONE Prestige class; and possibly a few feats from a single classbook.

The DM may well have dozens of NPCs with prestige classes from various Classbooks. Prestige classes as presented in the classbooks fit into two categories of DM support as I see it: new ideas, new rules.

I don't believe there is much Player Support that is not also DM Support; but that there is much DM Support that is not Player Support.

Cheers!


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## JeffB (Jul 17, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: DM Support*



			
				Olive said:
			
		

> *
> 
> of course, cos almost no campaigns have buildings in them... *




 

Yes, but SBG is a book about building castles, strongholds, and whatnot..It’s fine for those who are running sieges or mass combats, or something similar…

The percentage of DM’s who need a whole book about this stuff to design the local town mayor’s office, or their bad guy’s mountain-side tower is minimal at best…

I stand by my original post…the SBG is too narrowly focused to be worth much to the greater majority of DM’s…I’m not saying it’s not a worthwhile addition for some DM’s…but I don’t see it as general support for DM’s…

All,

As I stated earlier…BARRING whether you like the specific content, MotP is the TYPE of book I’d like to see more of from all companies, WOTC or otherwise…A Book of Tools w/ SOME pre-made crunch/fluff that can be utilized by the DM to use as is if they want, and more importantly a set of tools that allow one to create to individual whims….

Instead of a book full of pre-made PrClasses, how bout some toolkit books on how to go about making your own PrClasses to fit YOUR campaign?  Being spoon-fed “kewl” new PrClasses and feats that may or may not be appropriate for each individual DM is not necessarily supportive. Producing a detailed book that is toolkit for each and every DM out there to design his or her own Prclasses/feats. Etc., is supportive to virtually all DM’s.

I’ll take a Complete book of Villains, MotP, World/Dungeon Builders Guide, or whatever ANYDAY over  Enemies and Allies, small niche products like SBG, or another Mega-Dungeon crawl…

IMO of course…


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## Psion (Jul 17, 2002)

*Re: DM Support*



			
				Andy_Collins said:
			
		

> *Deities & Demigods, 224 pp. How to use gods in a campaign, including creating your own.
> *




FWIW, I found the products you listed much more useful that rounser did... but then, rounser is a known kvetcher, so that is hardly a surprise.

That said, I was really set aback by the lack of utility on DDG. First off, you cite 224 pages of "how to use gods in a campaign", but really, a rather large part of that is devoted to deity stats that
1) Many or most GMs will not use, as deity stats RARELY come directly into play in the levels of play most D&Ders play at. More about the followers of the deity and less deity stats would have been of much higher utility.
2) Many GMs will not use at any rate, because they don't use the listed pantheons.

Now, making your own deities IS useful, but I had hoped that more options would have been presented for how deities interact and rules of conduct. For example, thinks like divine moots, options like making it so that deities can only destroy other deities at great personal cost, etc. As it is, DDG has a very singular approach on this note: it uses an expanded version of the basic D&D combat system and dismisses interaction on a more mystical level.

That said, as long as you are here: On your page, you say you didn't know if ELH stuff would be added to the SRD, you didn't know if the demand was there. Well let me tell you: I think ELH needs to be added to the SRD in a bad way! Lots of products like LOH held off on adding more epic level stuff specifically because they didn't have the tools. And after seeing the ELH, I think it could afford some third party support.


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## der_kluge (Jul 17, 2002)

*wonders what a "kvetcher" is*


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## Sholari (Jul 17, 2002)

Here is my take on what a I consider DM support.  DM support varies depending on 1) the type of campaign you want to run and 2) what your limitations are as a DM.  In a way it is like running a services company.  There are certain things that are more economically efficient for me to outsource to the game company (Wizards of the Coast).  Personally, I am great at coming up with rules and ways to referee on the fly.  I chose not to use a lot of the add-on rules because they don’t add much value for me.  I am also great at integrating completely unrelated modules into a cohesive and compelling story.  However, I do not have the time to think through the details of every room and encounter.  This will differ for other DMs.  Of course, market research will point to how to properly segment DMs out there in the market.  I would say start by studying how DMs put their games together.

From some of the interviews I read the decision was made for options instead of restrictions in the core rules.  I think this was absolutely the right decision for the core rules.  However, I think this thinking has carried over into the campaign materials for settings such as the Forgotten rules and Greyhawk.  For my campaign setting I am not looking for monsters, deities, magic, and factions all split out from each other into separate books so that I can pick and choose.  For me the real value lies in how these things are integrated on a regional level.  The Forgotten Realms Campaign setting  captured this very well, but I am looking for the same integrated set at a more regional level where the campaign happens.  The Witchfire Trilogy (minus the steampowered stuff and linearity) also did this well. 

In terms of the campaign setting itself I am looking for something that will integrate well with my previous resource materials but very compelling in its own right (Savage Frontiers supplement).  Furthermore, I want points of dramatic tension in the world where major things are brewing beneath the surface, but what actually triggers is up to me (Old Empires by Scott Bennie).  However, I do not want huge world changing events that irrevocably alter the campaign world like the Time of Troubles in the Forgotten Realms.

I want 3-dimensional modules with a strong but non-linear story element and good ambience that I can tie into some overarching story line of my own creation.  Although the ambience has been good, the problem with recent modules like the Sunless Citadel is they were fairly weak on story and too episodical.  Modules that I think have been very good are as follows: the Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh, Danger at Dunwater, the Slavelord Series, Thirds of Purloined Vellum (recent Dungeon magazine module), Pharaoh and the rest of Desert of Desolation series, Castle Amber, Dragons of Despair, and the Assassin’s Knot.


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## Piratecat (Jul 17, 2002)

die_kluge said:
			
		

> **wonders what a "kvetcher" is* *




A complainer.


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## novyet (Jul 17, 2002)

Kaptain_Kantrip said:
			
		

> *It was about a WHALE druid.  *




I guess I'm missing something, what's wrong with that?


----------



## Skarp Hedin (Jul 17, 2002)

> I guess I'm missing something, what's wrong with that?




Well, Harn only has dolphin druids, see...  

I thought the whale druid was pretty interesting, myself.  I wouldn't use it in my current campaign, as it doesn't really fit the setting, but I liked it.  It was the first example I'd seen of an awakened animal with class levels (that I can think of offhand), and I found it to be pretty interesting.


----------



## herald (Jul 17, 2002)

If my memory servers, the whale wasn't a druid. It was a epic level Druid that could Wild Shape into a whale, wasn't it?


----------



## Lady Dragon (Jul 17, 2002)

Without a doubt ELH needs to be supported perferably by both WoTC and third party companies but since I doubt that WoTC coast will provide much in the way of support it is very important that third party companies do so or it will become just another one shot supplement that is exciting at first but quickly loses steam because everyone forgets about it.

Look at past history There were 3 supplements that came out for 2nd edition that were aimed at very high(Epic) level play These being Dragon Kings(for Dark sun), Netheril(for FR), and High level campaigns none of these were supported at all.

I've now read the ELH twice and I think it is a very good book but it could be an incredible book if it got a little support,Especially adventures and crunch although a campaign setting aimed at epic levels would be wonderful.


----------



## Arcane Runes Press (Jul 17, 2002)

novyet said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I guess I'm missing something, what's wrong with that? *




There's nothing wrong with it.

It's just another case of someone mistaking their opinion for objective fact. 


Patrick Y.


----------



## Warchild (Jul 17, 2002)

Arcane Runes Press said:
			
		

> *There's nothing wrong with it.
> It's just another case of someone mistaking their opinion for objective fact.
> Patrick Y. *




I don't remember exactly what the other guy said, but i didn't say there was anything wrong it. Just that my group was not at all interested in it. We thought it was entirely silly. Sue me! 
If you guys had fun with it, nothing makes me happier! I honestly mean that.


----------



## Arcane Runes Press (Jul 17, 2002)

Warchild said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I don't remember exactly what the other guy said, but i didn't say there was anything wrong it. Just that my group was not at all interested in it. We thought it was entirely silly. Sue me!
> If you guys had fun with it, nothing makes me happier! I honestly mean that. *




Sorry,

wasn't talking about you. In fact, I didn't realise you had said anything about that module. I was talking about Kaptain Kantrip's dismissal of it. 

Patrick Y.


----------



## novyet (Jul 17, 2002)

Warchild said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I don't remember exactly what the other guy said, but i didn't say there was anything wrong it. Just that my group was not at all interested in it. We thought it was entirely silly. Sue me!
> If you guys had fun with it, nothing makes me happier! I honestly mean that. *



Actually I was wondering about the good Kaptain, but I can see why your group might not be able to take the concept seriously, it is pretty off the wall!


----------



## Warchild (Jul 17, 2002)

novyet said:
			
		

> *
> Actually I was wondering about the good Kaptain, but I can see why your group might not be able to take the concept seriously, it is pretty off the wall!
> 
> *




Well, to be fair about it, it really was introduced at a terrible time. My own character was real busy (not to mention the other player's plots). He had his Church of Mask membership to arrange, a city offical to kill, and a group of paladin's to frame for it. He was swamped!! 
When a storm hit and a cadre of whales attacked the docks (although only really one merchant lord's docks in particular), we all pretty much looked at him, blinked, and went back to our business. "now...about that Disintegrate spell i've been trying to track down. Did that black market wizard tried to get in contact with me, or was he detained by the Agnostic Paladin Guards?" (or something to that affect from the gnomish wizard).

Wrong place. Wrong Time. Wrong level of atmosphere i guess.


----------



## Jay_Kinnear (Jul 19, 2002)

Alright I may just be a kid with no game experience, and no business knowledge and frankly right now I think that's a good thing. In short there have been mistakes on both sides the past year and a half I suppose. People have been begging for more and more Rule books. The Crunch I suppose. Sword and Fist, Song and Silance, The castle book, and the Challanges book, and honestly these books haven't done as well as the Hardbacks, and frankly arent that well done in fact their quite bad half the time because their all rules, and all those numbers and rules and classes, and roles are annoying fine thank you, it may be useful but honestly not really, their much without the other half, and frankly there two expensive and too badly done for thier usefullness if any. I know honestly from a business stand point it made sense to do them, but frankly why not just do one hardback with all the Classes information, all the numbers, PcR's, stat's, and the what not, and make sure it's damn well done good, I mean seriously the Errata and what not is enough to drive a person crazy this are supposed to be useful tools, and useful does not involves downloading or having to wait for FIVE PAGES OF ERRATA fixing mistakes that could have been taking care of before the product was released, The rules can be honed the info as well. I mean look at Star Wars one and a half years after the first book is released they release a new book with the same rules and the fixes they could have done before they released it. It only takes a little work, and with a Big company like WotC yeah they are looking for the next huge big thing since Pokemon, that exploded out of nowhere but guess what like all fad's it ends, hell I don't even know if that Fifty dollar Charizard is worth anything anymore because the Fad is gone people have moved on, and yes magic is populer, but it didn't start off that way in the beginning it's had damn near ten years to grow and mature, and thanks to that growth and maturity it sells well, it's not insanely huge but it's known by certian people. I would have to say five out of ten people I meet in the average day might know what magic the gathering is. But most don't, it's a niche, that has grown over time. And yet Wizards of the Coast, and yes their owners Hasbro have since Pokemon failed tried to catch the next shooting Star, Harry Potter CCG, Star Wars Ccg, they've bought these Lisence in order to try and gain more and more money like they did with the Behemoth that was Pokemon well guess what. You can only cage it for a little while before they Behemoth smashes itself against the cage over and over and kills itself.  

And then we come to DnD and hey I may not be a business major but it seems to me that the best releases they've had in the past year and a half have been books that combine everything, Rules, PrC's, Race, Stat's, and oh guess what Fluff. Book of the Planes, Forgotten Realms Core Rulebook, Oriental Adventures, Psionic Handbook, Magic of Fearun, combined all of that stuff, and they've selled like hot cakes. Gone into Reprint, been lusted after and praised, and hell they where well done, without hundreds of Errors, and are big thick heavy books. If they want to make the most money it would seem wise to follow this pattern at least to me and hey guess what I don't have a huge business degree, and hell yeah I may be wrong, but if the quality of the Product is high, and well done then it's going to do well, I know The Book of Vile Darkness is going to be good, and I am damn well going to get it as soon as I can, because I know that quality of work, art, stories, and rules are going to be there, it's a combination of all those things. You can't have one without the other I guess what I'm trying to say, and by focusing on one thing your going to kill it off as well because after a while people are going to look at the Rules and go hey I'm sick of Rules it's boring, I want something more and move onto something else that has what they want. Can't have one without the other and if you do focus on one thing your going to kill it. 

And I suppose there are other factors too. But honestly I could probably focus on five good ones. First off favoring one thing over the other, if you do that eventually your going to kill it do to overexposure. Hell it's like plants almost if you leave it out in the sun too long it's going to wither and die, and if you give it too much water it's going to become soggy and die, you have to have a balance and hey yeah there's the Lawful good vs Chaotic evil axis once more if there is no balance, no shades of grey in between those two forces their just going to headbutt each other until they both die from head trauma, you can't have Rules without a setting to use them in. The next thing is advertising I mean it really is pretty pathitic when you think about it, Dungeons and Dragon's is know throughout the world it seems hell it's as North America as TV, showbiz, sex, and pie. I Knew about Dungeon and Dragons for years before I finally found out exactly what it is. I mean damn it that's pretty damn odd huh, and yet the main representation of it to the world is that pathitic Dungeon and Dragon's cartoon and that stupid as hell, pathitic excuse of a Z Movie. I mean for god sakes take some pride in your work and your product, cause what kind of example are you setting to the world in general that this work of art game. This piece of art that is the Tabletop Rpg world is that dumb. Last time I checked and this maybe just me the game I play the Dungeon and Dragons I know and Love isn't about some idiot kids, and their Unicorn but an Epic Setting of magic, and Warrior Kings, the stuff of countless Legends and Myths, the works of ages, and I can be a part of that, I can be that King, I can forge those legends, I can be anything I want to be without limits, and instead of showing this, instead of bringing it to the fore, we show them pieces of living dung like that. Now I'm sorry if that seems like a rant, because I was trying to prove my point. It seems to me in general that the industry is projecting the wrong image, and not saying the right things, if the Players had know That Lords of Darkness had the PcR's they craved, the Spell they lusted for, and Magic items they could never get enough of, they would have picked it up in an instant, and if the DM knew it listed in detail every single minute of Fzoul's day, and that's just to be literal, they would have picked it up as well cause you know what? It's useful to both of them not just one of the other. A balance, but nope most ended up thinking it was just a big huge book of Npc Stats for a DM, and missed the magic inside. And I guess that's what I mean by the advertising sucks. I think in general the reason 3E started of so well, why I was willing to spend so much damn money on the Three Core Rulebooks, and then the FRCR is because I knew what I was putting my money down for, you couldn't open a Gaming magizine without finding out what was coming, and it seems to me it damn well worked. But I maybe wrong. The next is sheer slopiness on some of the books produced in the last year and a half, and this seems to mainly be those smaller thinner books, the Class books, the Challanges books, the Thing books, they seemed sloppy, then seemed to be a waste of my hard earned money, they basically in general sucked, and I think I have to put Faiths and Patheons into the same boot, they focused too lightly on the material, or they wasted a great deal of space, now personally if I was running the Dungeon and Dragon's branch of Wizards of the Coast I would have looked at our big hardcover books and realized hey this is good, this makes sense, Why publish five Class books when I can do a spiffy and impressive Core Class book, make it have all the infromation in one spot, instead of a hundred different places, put them all in one spot cause yeah this player may say Rogues ROCK, and mages suck but hey maybe one day he'll say well I want to play something different what haven't I done, and he'll go over that chapter devoted to Wizards, and say hey I think I might try this, it looks interesting to me, but because of the way the class book was done, he can't really do that can he, he can't look in depth on a wizard, and it's not like he's going to go out and spend the money on a book he heard is really sloppy and badly done, it'd be a waste of his money, and if he's thinking that, the most likely so are a whole bunch of people, so take some pride in your work because it's good stuff, the hard Covers are impressive, and they really do make more sense, but hey might not be commerical viable, but you know what I think they might just be. Sorry if I'm repeating myself.  The next two points I'm going to touch on really quickly, the first is cancelling something before it's really grown, Chainmail was what killed off Nine months after it was released, before it really gained steam, and the second is paying redicalous amounts of money over something that may damn well fail, and I'm going to be blunt, The Star Wars Trading card game, and Harry Potter will never make as much money as Pokemon, that was a fad that burned out quickly, so are these. And we as the players bitch a hell of a lot, maybe we should step back and realize that yeah we may not like paying for the book, but that it's going to last us nearly forever, especially if it's good, and even if we got the source book five years old, things change, I mean yeah Peter Parker is Dating Mary Jane when you first read your Spider Man comic, but hey five years has past, and not their married, things don't stay the same forever, and sometimes change is bloody good. 

In any case I maybe just rambling but I've got one last thing to say, someone said on the boards how Lord of the Rings is mostly crunch, but you know what it's a combination of both, there are some well thought out extremely detailed things in that series the history and languages of the Elves, and the Dwarves, I mean honestly how many authors go into that much detail about how to speak, and even make a language, that had never been done before in liturature I believe not once, ever, and here he did it, but over this extremely, extremely intiricite shell he added a casing and that is the story which is told, the Adventures and Struggles of the Fellowship of the ring, thier loves, their hopes and their dreams, he brought  those cultures he devolped, that history he created to life, because without the one, the other doesn't work, without the story, and the characters, could you honestly say you'd give a damn about their history, and this odd language know as Elven? 

Now I think I've made my point and I'm sorry if this is too long but I think it needed to be said, there has to be a balance, if they did that hey I'd buy the books instead we have to search for the great among the medicore. You make your own destiny, but without balance your going to die quickly. So my vote is this, give me both of them, preferable at the same time, because if you don't you'll kill it off. 

There I'm done, that's it. Just a fan who's loved this game for a very long time. And in the early hours of the morning I lay my thought's bare to you.


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## rounser (Jul 19, 2002)

> _Psion:_
> FWIW, I found the products you listed much more useful that rounser did... but then, rounser is a known kvetcher, so that is hardly a surprise.





> _Piratecat:_
> A complainer.



I'm admittedly pretty hard to please...

(EDITED to better gulp bitter pill.)


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## Zappo (Jul 19, 2002)

Jay_Kinnear, I'm very sorry but I ain't going to read that big block of text.


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## kingpaul (Jul 19, 2002)

*Re: SRD*



			
				Zulkir said:
			
		

> *Sorry CH, meant to answer that. We hired an intern to get us caught up on the SRD. He is currently sitting in a little cube slitting envelopes. So as soon as we get all the entries processed we will set him on that task.*



You're *still* opeing envelopes?  
Holy cow, Batman!  Will you be able to get them all ready by your extended deadline, or will it be pushed again?


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## ashockney (Jul 27, 2002)

*Great Thread*

What an excellent thread.  

Sean, good for you for fighting for what you believe in, and using this community to stir up support for your product.  As a gamer for 15+ years, DM, and owner of Silver Marches, I'll tell you that I loved every fluffy bit of it!

Anthony, I trust the business in your capable hands (YIKES!).  We don't have, and shouldn't have, all the information that you do about making these business decisions.  Passing judgement on your decisions is disrespectful to you.  Further, you've done nothing but an exemplary job at openly sharing your ideas and thoughts about the business of DnD/d20 with the members of this community.  Speaking as a VP, with an MBA, and over 10 years in business, it sounds like you've made an excellent business decision, given your constraints, and what you've shared.

Overall, where do I fall?  I've run over 10 campaigns in the forgotten realms.  I bought the original grey boxed set, the day it came out in my little hometown.  I LOVE the stories of the Forgotten Realms.  

I'm also the ONLY ONE in my group of 10 friends (mix of DM's and players) who will buy the Silver Marches.  Our group bought several copies of Magic of Faerun, and has bought several copies of Magic of Rokugan (a similar AEG product).  The quotient of crunch must be astronomical to appeal to general "gamerdom," at least in my group  I'll take 35% fluff any day of the week, as opposed to no fluff at all.  Particularly when you're talking about  the campaign setting which is most dear to me and my gaming group.

Good luck in making your decisions.  Thank you for the great products, and all your hard work.  Long live the Realms!


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