# OOC - [Epic] Scions of the Endless Falls - Full



## Isida Kep'Tukari (Oct 25, 2004)

You all belonged to a world known as the Endless Falls.  It was a world of great extremes, infinately high mountains, impossibly deep seas, cities that represented the greatest and worst of humanity.  In the center of your world was the place where all the waters ran, and fell down the Endless Falls.  Here was the place where one could lift out magic, power, creativity, and the raw stuff that dreams are made of.  All of you bathed in the Falls, and became the most powerful people of your world.  You made cities, or perhaps only controlled one behind the scenes.  Maybe you moved mountains, or created your own magical lair in a hollow peak and delved into the mysteries of creation.  Perhaps you wiped out a whole race, only to build them up again in your image.  Whatever your desires, you could make them, for you were like unto gods in your world.

But such power breeds jealousy from evil powers, and alarm from the good powers.  "Mortals were not meant to have such power, they have spirialed too high, too fast!" the gods cried, for the Endless Falls was one of the worlds left over from the time of creation.  Few had bothered to control it, and indeed, some looked upon it with pride.  But with your rise to ascension, came fear.  In a holocaust of fire, blood, water, and lightning, the world of the Endless Falls came to an end.  

Only you few survived.  Representing the great power of your world, you are all that remain of the Endless Falls.  You represent the highest and the lowest, the best and worst of your world.  Some are benevolent, some cruel, but all of you share the bond of being the last of your kind.  The gods tried to destroy you out of fear.  And by hook or by crook, fair means or foul, this must be redressed.

*Character Creation Rules*

3.5 rules

30th level

Roll for stats using http://www.vacuumelemental.com/  4d6 drop the lowest.  If your stats are too low for your liking, lemme look and I'll see if you can re-roll

443,000 XP

Starting gold - 4,300,000gp

No epic spellcasting/psionics (too much of a hassle)

Races allowed - from PHB, Savage Species, MM II & III, Fiend Folio, Tome of Horrors I & II, Expanded Psionic Handbook, Book of Vile Darkness/Exalted Deeds, Primeval Groves (Goodman Games), Creatures of the Endless Dark (Goodman Games), Creatures of the Boundless Blue (Goodman Games), as well as from Dragon magazine #277-#321.  Animal companions and familiars can be lifted from these sources as well.

Classes allowed - only standard.  If you have a really smashing idea for one of the OA classes (or races), run it by me first.  I may allow some alternate classes from Unearthed Arcana if you have a really smashing character concept.

Feats, prestige classes, equipment, spells, and whatnot can be drawn from core books, Book of Vile Darkness/Exalted Deeds, BoEM I, II, and III, BoHM I and II, Savage Species, Manual of the Planes, Planar Handbook, Expanded Psionic Handbook, Hyperconsciousness, all splatbooks, Arms and Equipment Guide, as well as from Dragon magazine #277-#321.  My own prestige classes will also be allowed (link in the sig).

I reserve the DM's right to veto anything.

You'll note that none of the Forgotten Realms books are on this list.  That is deliberate.

[In addition, if anyone wants to play an awakened air element gelatinous cube, let me know.]

In addition, let's keep the cohorts to a minimum, because keeping track of the abilities of epic level characters is hard enough as it is.  

I'm expecting a wild array of characters, from the vile to the exalted, magical to the monsterous.  However, you must all have a taste for power, and a willingness to work together.  Some of your number may have gone off on their own quests to restore your world, and may join you from time to time (which is how I will move alternates in if necessary).  Some of you may hate each other, but heck, you're stuck with each other.  There may be some tension-filled roleplaying, but no intra-party killing or maiming (physically or mentally).


*Scions of the Endless Falls*

TheOneAboveAll

*Ferrix* - *Sigrún, The Architect* - _N Male Elan Psion 10/Constructor 20_

*perivas* - *Caira Greenleaf* - _NG Female Dryad Cleric 5/Alienist 7/Thaumaturgist 4/Cosmic Descryer 9_ with cohort _Loudbark Laughingoak (Cohort) - NG Male Treant Barbarian 4/Fighter 4/Ranger 3_

*Wrahn* - *Rahveon “Mountain Shaker”* - _CG Male African Elephant Anthropomorphic Animal ECL 1 /Monstrous Humanoid 3 /Bard 2 /Holy Liberator 2 /Barbarian 12 /Dragon Disciple 10 _ 

*Kangaxx* - *Pilmer Blurwind* - _NE Male Halfling Rogue 3/ Wizard 5/ Archmage 4/ Arcane Trickster 18_

*Kelleris* - *Arion Kietsudoku* - _CG Male Half-fey/Half-human Bard 22, Ex-Assassin 5, Duelist 1 (3.0), Shadowdancer 1_



*Alternate list*

hafrogman
Gideon
Zack2216
DemonAtheist - deep dwarf fighter 12/barbarian 18
LazarusLong42 - Epic bard
Serpenteye - arcane caster or psion
Xael - Wizard/Mystic Theurge, possible lich
Dalamar - Grug (flesh-eating Troll fighter)
Orichin - Raia Artos-Sari (succubus, NE, 6 hd outsider, +6 lvl adjustment, 8 levels ranger, 10 levels mortal hunter)
Mad Hatter


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## Orichin (Oct 25, 2004)

sounds like fun, count me in, if there's room

stat rolls are on the site you linked above, ID 131131, 131132, 131133, 131135, 131136, and 131137, character name orichin (will decide on character and his/her name tonight)


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## Zack2216 (Oct 25, 2004)

I am very interested in playin in an epic campaign. Oh, but what to play. Hmmm...

Well, here is what I rolled-
Char. Name, Zack2216
ID's 131157, 131166, 131167, 131168, 131170, 131171

I was impressed with the stats, until I dropped lowest. : P Anyway, I hope I get in.


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## hafrogman (Oct 25, 2004)

I'd like to sign up as an alternate.  I'm supposedly in another epic game that's in the works, but I don't know if it's ever going to move forward.  So I'll design a character and follow your game in case mine doesn't go and you ever need an extra


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## Xael (Oct 25, 2004)

I'm interested if there's room, since I've never actually played epic.

Character concept: Mystic Theurge (30 levels just screams for it) or a Wizard, possibly a lich.

The dice roller gives me some error though.


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## hafrogman (Oct 25, 2004)

be sure to fill in all fields for the dice roller (even the one that says optional).  zero modifier and "no note" 

And hey Zack, don't feel bad.  The stats I rolled were terrible BEFORE I dropped lowest.

11
6
12
12
11
9

http://krisinchico.brinkster.net/searchroll.asp?username=haf#131184
http://krisinchico.brinkster.net/searchroll.asp?username=haf#131185
http://krisinchico.brinkster.net/searchroll.asp?username=haf#131186
http://krisinchico.brinkster.net/searchroll.asp?username=haf#131187
http://krisinchico.brinkster.net/searchroll.asp?username=haf#131188
http://krisinchico.brinkster.net/searchroll.asp?username=haf#131190


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## Ferrix (Oct 25, 2004)

Okay, I'm thinking Cerebremancer or a Psion/Constructor... but mostly it depends on what other people are looking to play.  Might go rogue or monk (although I'm a bit leery about rogue due to the commonality of immunity to SA at such high levels).


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## Ferrix (Oct 25, 2004)

Although I did have a couple more odd character ideas.

-A paladin whose psyche has been fractured, thus actually leaving him with two distinct characters within him.  One would be as he would be, a paladin of the purest distinction.  However the other side of him is the darkest of paladins.  Each side knows the other exists.

-Other idea is actually a character who has two bodies, one of which is actually incorporeal which seems to float about his body creating an eerie effect.  They are connected so they can't be separated by more than probably five feet.  Probably something like a psychic warrior for this character idea and something "like" the multi-headed template but a bit altered to fit the circumstances.

Those are my cooler ideas.  Ciao... bed time.


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## perivas (Oct 25, 2004)

I am also interested in this game.  Currently, I'm thinking about playing a druid, but will become more certain as I try to flesh out the character in detail.


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## Dalamar (Oct 25, 2004)

I'm certainly interested, most likely with some kind of monstrous character. So far I've considered a succubus, one of the Angels, Troll, Ogre, Nymph... the list goes on.
Another chance would be to try out a psionic PrC, maybe Psion Uncarnate or the adds-astral-construct-abilities-to-self PrC from Hyperconscious. I'll take a closer look later today. A troll psychic warrior with Expansion and Claws of the Vampire sounds nice...


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## Serpenteye (Oct 25, 2004)

I'm interested as well, though I'm probably too late. I would play either an arcane caster or a Psion


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Oct 25, 2004)

Hmm... since there's so much interest, let me go with this proposal.  Write me your character background and concept, as well as your proposed race and levels.  I will pick the first six that are well fleshed out.


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## Thanee (Oct 25, 2004)

Isida, you are insane! 

 That is, of course, meant as a compliment! 

 Bye
 Thanee


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Oct 25, 2004)

Ferrix said:
			
		

> Although I did have a couple more odd character ideas.
> 
> -A paladin whose psyche has been fractured, thus actually leaving him with two distinct characters within him.  One would be as he would be, a paladin of the purest distinction.  However the other side of him is the darkest of paladins.  Each side knows the other exists.
> 
> ...



  Hmm... did you have any ideas to do this mechanically?  A character with a ghost?  A cursed paladin?  Some kind of magical symbiant?

And Thanee - Thank you!


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## Wrahn (Oct 25, 2004)

I am interested as well, let me see what I can come up with.  I usually wait and see where the holes are and try to fill in from there, but idea for a character...

Rahveon "Mountain Shaker"

Rahveon comes from a tribe of Dor'Kalien who roam the Savanna of Undella.  They resemble the Elephants they have domesticated.  Rahveon grew up in the shadow of Drumak Sule, the great mountain that rose up from the Savannah.  

Drumak Sule was the home of the great fire serpent who protected Undella from the great evils of the world.  While the Dor’Kalien paid homage to spirits and not Gods, the Fire Serpent was considered the greatest of the spirits.  Which is why Rahveon’s family was treated with such high regard, as they were said to have descended from it.

Rahveon was born the son of the chief, and among a people renown for their strength, he was considered strong.  He was also considered headstrong and impulsive.  While the Dor’Kalien were mostly peaceful and subsisted on the bounty that the Savannah provided, they knew it was valuable to have warriors to protect from the terrible things that hunted the nights.  Rahveon was quickly apprenticed with the night guardians.

But Rahveon also had a great love of the Lore keepers and story tellers, he spent much of his early years under their tutelage.  Learning their unique brand of magic.

The defining moment of young Rahveon’s life came in the year of the Swollen River, where floods brought disease with them.  With most of his tribe sick and dying, he rose to the hights of the great mountain Drumak Sule, to beseech the Great Fire Serpent for aid.  After a long and treacherous climb, he found its home and plead for his people.

The Great Wyrm Verain’tral, whom the Dor’Kalien called the Great Fire Serpent, answered the call for assistance and brought his healing magic to Rahveon’s tribe.  He saw potential in someone who was willing to take such great risk to aid his people.  He took on Rahveon as his apprentice of sorts and over the next few years, instructed him.  He awakened the Draconic blood that ran threw his veins.

After years of instruction, Rahveon had grown beyond what his tribe could offer, he took to wandering, bringing his might to the aid of the helpless and innocent.

He earned the name Monutain Shaker, when he did battle with the Balor Prince Kalfashe over the possession of Verain’tral soul, which the Balor Prince had stolen.


(Roughly speaking African Elephant Animorph (from savage species) which has 2 ECL and 3 racial hit dice

ECL 2/ HD 3/ Bard 4/ Barbarian 5/ Dragon Disciple 16) 

The stat roller doesn't seem to be working for me.  (won't add my roll to the database, I don't think  I am doing anything wrong.)

I am assuming we are doing things like we did in your Vile Darkness game in regards to Hit Points (+1d8 for ECL and 75%)


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## Xael (Oct 25, 2004)

Okay, got the dice roller working, thanks hafrogman. 

Stats rolled: 
http://krisinchico.brinkster.net/searchroll.asp?username=Xael#131240
http://krisinchico.brinkster.net/searchroll.asp?username=Xael#131241
http://krisinchico.brinkster.net/searchroll.asp?username=Xael#131242
http://krisinchico.brinkster.net/searchroll.asp?username=Xael#131244
http://krisinchico.brinkster.net/searchroll.asp?username=Xael#131245
http://krisinchico.brinkster.net/searchroll.asp?username=Xael#131246


*Character Concept:* Elven Undead (Shadow) Wizard 17/Shadow 3/Emancipated Spawn 3... 

*Problems:* 1. Incorporeality. Solution: Ring of Telekinesis and other equipment made usable by incorporeal creatures (+10% cost to item, in Savage Species).

2. Shadows cannot speak . Solution: Extended (or permanent) Silent Rary's Telepathic Bond, Silent spells, Greater Metamagic Silent Rods, and automatic Silent Spell...



I'm working on the background, will post soonish.


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## Wrahn (Oct 25, 2004)

Okay, how did you get it to work?


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## Serpenteye (Oct 25, 2004)

Hmm, "well fleshed out," might take a while. I could have a character up by tomorrow, but by then it will probably be too late. Anyway, here's a concept.

Human Sorcerer15/Archmage5/Epic Sorcerer10. Automatic Quicken Spellx3, Multispellx4, very heavy artillery. Obsessed with power and magic, a bit insane.


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## Wrahn (Oct 25, 2004)

Serp,

You have to be a 20th level sorcerer to enter into Epic Sorcerer.  

(I think that rule is in the errata, it may be in a Q&A, but it makes sense, you can't just jump 5 levels and go from 4 to 9 for instance, even if you are 9th level and the epic level sorcerer starts at 21st level)


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## Dalamar (Oct 25, 2004)

Troll 6+5/Fighter 19, just to see if he can pull himself back together after everything you throw his way.

Rolls 16, 15, 12, 12, 5, and 10

That 5 is really going to hurt. It will, his Wis is going to be 3, which means that anything that hurts his Wis will knock him out. And his other mentals aren't really going to be that much better, either


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## Gideon (Oct 25, 2004)

I would like to play if the game isn't full.  Or if the game is full throw me on Ye Ole Reserves List.  As a side note, how do yall post so fast.


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## Ferrix (Oct 25, 2004)

Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> Hmm... did you have any ideas to do this mechanically?  A character with a ghost?  A cursed paladin?  Some kind of magical symbiant?
> 
> And Thanee - Thank you!




For the paladin I was literally thinking of taking the exact same stats and creating two characters, one a paladin type, one a fallen paladin and then working out personality wise some triggers which would flip the dominant personality and thus the abilities available.

On the equipment side this would be a bit more difficult to make sure the equipment he wears doesn't conflict with his split nature or does something similar and flips some specific parts (a holy sword turns into an unholy sword) to make it fit.

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For the psychic warrior type, it'd probably be along the lines of something like the tauric template but instead of merging a quadraped and a biped, it'd be an incorporeal version of a biped merged with a biped.  Or something like that.


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## perivas (Oct 25, 2004)

*Caira Greenleaf*

Concept:
Dryad druid and her treant barbarian/ranger cohort

Background:
Caira Greenleaf was born a dryad in the most ancient groves of the Misty Forest which lie very close to the Endless Falls.  She was an extremely curious creature by dryad standards and longed to the see the sites of the world beyond this ancient forest.  She listened intently to the tales told by the druids who often visited her.  From them, she learned some of the druidic artists and helped to preserve the ancient groves that was her home.  In fact, she and a young druid named Dunathenik fell in love and were married before the eyes of the Great Druid Council.  With his love and the ability to grow her tree into one of the giants in the forest, she was able to wander further away through her husband’s eyes and the extended reach of her ancient oak.  But in time, Dunathenik passed away.  With his passing, her desire to venture forth grew greater and greater.

After a whole century, she decided to see the Endless Falls to find a means to extend the distance of the bond with her oak tree.  At a peril to her own life, she reached the Endless Falls which lie several miles from her oak tree.  She soaked in Its waters and drew into her great knowledge and potential for power.  She suddenly realized how to accomplish her desire.  Although she could never truly extend the link between herself and her oak, she could do something else.  She used this knowledge to transform her oak into a treant!

As soon as this treant came to be, it laughed out loud in great joy after centuries upon centuries of silence.  For this, she named him Loudbark Laughingoak.  They would go on many adventures together to preserve the Misty Forest and the ancient groves beyond.  Loudbark channeled his nature deposition towards forest ecology and his hatred for those destroying the forest to become an accomplished ranger and an able barbarian.  Meanwhile, Caira continued to grow her abilities as a druid…becoming one of the foremost practitioners of the druidic arts in the world.

In the times at the end of the world, Caira was sad to see the world destroyed.  While she was able to preserve a small grove of an ancient forecast, she was unable to save her more animate friends.  For now, she waits in the ancient grove, using divination powers to seek out other survivors and the ultimate fate of the world.


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Oct 25, 2004)

Since I do not own Complete Divine/Arcane/Warrior, those will not be used.  For the splatbooks I mean the 5 original ones, Sword and Fist,Defenders of the Faith, Tome and Blood, Song and Silence, and Masters of the Wild.  Please do not e-mail me the latest and greatest version of the prestige classes from those books, this game is complicated enough already.

Now, I don't mind a little healthy insanity, but no sociopaths please!  I do not want to turn this into another Graverended Grimoire.

Also, after looking at the Emacipated Spawn, it doesn't really fit the theme I was looking for, so would you mind choosing something else Serpenteye?


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## Dalamar (Oct 25, 2004)

Concept changed then. I actually changed it before I saw you post this, so it isn't really that big of a hit anyway 

Now I just need to write down a history for a troll...


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## Wrahn (Oct 25, 2004)

Name: Rahveon "Mountain Shaker"
Race: African Elephant Anthropomorphic Animal (Half Dragon from Dragon Disciple)
Alignment: Neutral Good
Class:ECL 1/Monsterous Humanoid 3/Bard 4/Barbarian 12/Dragon Disciple 10
Height 12' 4"
Weight: 1600lbs
Hair: None
Eyes: solid liquid gold
Complexion: Gold/Gold Scales
Experience: 436,000

Strength: 	60 (Base: 15 +12 Race, +8 Class, +7 Level, +5 Inherent, +1 Feat, +12 Enhancement)
Dexterity:	26 (Base: 13 +2 Race, +5 Inherent, +6 Enhancement)
Constitution:	34 (Base: 15 +6 Race, +2 Class, +5 Inherent, +6 Enhancement)
Intelligence:	20 (Base: 13 +2 Class, +5 Inherent)
Wisdom:	26 (Base: 12 +4 Race, +4 Inherent, +6 Enhancement)
Charisma:	26 (Base: 14 +2 Class, +4 Inherent, +6 Enhancement)

HP 600 (1d8 + 3d8 + 4d6 + 12d12 + 10d12 + 360)

BAB +18/+13/+8/+3

Attack (Jovar): +62/+62/+57/+52/+47 (18 +5 Epic, +25 Strength, +6 Enhancement, +2 Morale, +1 Competence, +2 Weapon Focus, +1 Haste, +3 Luck, -1 Size)
Attack (Bow): +38/+38/+33/+28/+23 (18 +4 Epic, +8 Dex, +2 Enhancement, +2 Moral, +1 Competence, +1 Haste, +3 Luck, -1 Size)

Damage (Jovar) 3d6 +46 (+37 Strength, +6 Weapon, +3 Luck) 15-20/x2 + 1d6 + Fort Save (DC49) or die

Damage (Bow) 2d6 +30 (+25 Strength, + 2 Weapon, +3 Luck) 20/x3

Armor Class: 54 (10 Base, +13 Armor, +16 Natural, +7 Shield, +5 Deflection, +3 Dex, +1 Haste, -1 Size)

Saves:
Fortitude:  +46 (+12 Classes, +12 Con, +4 Epic, +5 Resistance, +5 Luck, +5 Sacred. +1 Competence, +2 Morale)
Reflex:  +42 (+11 Classes, +8 Dex, +4 Epic, +5 Resistance, +5 Luck, +5 Sacred. +1 Competence, +2 Morale, +1 Haste)
Will: +42 (+13 Classes, +7 Wis, +4 Epic, +5 Resistance, +5 Luck, +5 Sacred. +1 Competence, +2 Morale)

1. Power Attack
3. Cleave
6. Great Cleave
9. Exotic Weapon Proficiency Jovar
12. Weapon Focus Jovar
15. Improved Critical Jovar
18. Improved Weapon Focus Jovar
21. Overwhelming Critical Jovar
24. Devastating Critical Jovar
27. Great Strength 

Bluff: +22 (+11 Rank, +8 Cha, +2 Morale, +1 Competence)
Diplomacy: +36 (+21 Rank, +8 Cha, +2 Morale, +1 Competence, +4 Synergy)
Gather Information: +22 (+11 Rank, +8 Cha, +2 Morale, +1 Competence)
Hide: +15 (+4 Rank, +8 Dex, +2 Morale, +1 Competence)
Intimidate: +29 (+18 Rank, +8 Cha, +2 Morale, +1 Competence)
KS: Arcana: +16 (+8 Rank, +5 Int, +2 Morale, +1 Competence)
Listen: +42 (+31 Rank, +8 Wis, +2 Morale, +1 Competence)
Move Silently: +19 (+4 Rank, +8 Dex, +2 Morale, +1 Competence)
Perform (Percussion):+22 (+11 Rank, +8 Cha, +2 Morale, +1 Competence)
Search: +26 (18 Rank, +5 Int, +2 Morale, +1 Competence)
Sense Motive: +29 (+18 Rank, +8 Wis, +2 Morale, +1 Competence)
Spellcraft: +24 (+14 Rank, +5 Int, +2 Morale, +1 Competence, +2 Synergy)
Spot: +53 (+31 Rank, +8 Wis, +2 Morale, +12 Competence)
Survival: +19 (+8 Rank, +8 Wis, +2 Morale, +1 Competence

Spells:

3/4/9

Spells known:

0. Detect Magic       1. Comprehend Languages    2. Cure Moderate Wounds
0. Prestidigitation     1. Undetectable Alignment    2. Invisibility
0. Message             1. Disguise Self 
0. Mending              
0. Mage Hand
0. Open/Close

Racial Abilities:

-Statistic Modifiers: +12 Str, +2 Dex, +6 Con, +4 Wis
-Natural Armor +7
-Darkvision 60ft
-Size: Large 
-Favored Class: Barbarian

Class Abilities:

-Bardic Music: Inspire Competence, Inspire Courage
-Bardic Knowledge +12
-Fast Movement (Ex): +10 feet. 
-Uncanny Dodge: Does not lose Dex 
-Trap Sense +4
-Improved Uncanny Dodge: Cannot be flanked 
-Damage Reduction 2/-
-Greater Rage Strength and Con +6, morale bonus on Will +3. The penalty to AC -2.  4/day
-Ability Boost +8 Str, +2 Con, +2 Int, +2 Cha 
-Natural Armor Increase +4 Natural Armor
-1d8 Bite 1d6 Claws
-Breath Weapon (Su):  Fire cone 30ft in length 6d8 Reflex DC 32 for half
-Blindsense (Ex):  60 ft 
-Wings (Ex): 40ft
-Low Light vision
-Immunity to sleep, Paralysis Effects and Fire

Items:

*Crown of Nevarisen:* +6 Enhancement Bonus to Wis, Cha: 90,000

Nevarisen was an ancient kingdom that had been destroyed by the Calshan Theocracy some 2,500 years ago.  Rahveon retrieved the crown and some other objects when adventuring in an ancient Crypt which housed an ancient Lich who turned out to be Nildeamos, the former leader of the Calshan Theocracy.  It appears as a helm of dark grey metal with a full blank faceplate, with gems of an unknown type around the brow at even intervals. 

*Hands of Perseverance*  (Gauntlets of Dexterity and Health +6, Bless Weapon, Continuous): 102,000

Custom made for Rahveon in Katil, these gauntlet are fingerless, to allow full use of his claws in necessary.  They are black leather overlaid with silver scales.

Any weapon held by the wearer of the gloves is effected by Bless Weapon  (Becomes good aligned, automatically confirms criticals against evil opponents.  +1 Enhancement bonus versus evil if it does not have one already)

*Amulet of Body and Mind Warding* (Death Ward, continuous, +5 Natural Armor): 147,000

A large black diamond at the end of a silver chain, the diamond seems to be lit from within as long as it is worn by something that has a soul.  It was in Verain’til’s horde at the time of his death.

*The Strength of the Ages* (Belt of Epic Strength +12): 1,440,000

In a world of power, the Strength of the Ages is a legend in and of itself.  The belt itself is made out of Adamantine, forged in narrow plates and connected together by chains.  It was forged by Kravis’dun, the greatest of the Fire Giant smiths, for Antilvarn “Doom Hammer.”  Antilvarn used the item to carve and empire based on his legendary strength and he ancestors used it to expand further.  Rahveon killed the descendent of Antilvarn, a massive giant named Sultran, as the giants were trying to take a dwarven city.

Book +5 Str 137,500
Book +5 Dex 137,500
Book: +5 Con 137,500
Book: +5 Int 137,500
Book: +4 Wis 110,000
Book: +4 Cha 110,000

*Drunik’s Masterpiece:* +5 Mithral Full Plate of Heavy Fortification 210,500

Drunik was a dwarven artificer, who Rahveon commissioned to build him a new set of armor after he had grown wings.  Drunik out did himself, forging what he called his masterpiece, light and impossibly strong, yet stylish enough to distinguish any warrior as a being of great taste (Drunik’s words).  It is silver and of a simple elegant design.

*Retribution:* +6 Adamantine Jovar 723,500

In Kital, a Jovar is sign of training by the famed Weapon Masters.  An order of warriors that few would dare to compare themselves favorably to.  Magic Jovars exist, there is not a great demand for them, for those that use the Jovar are rare.  However, if a student impresses the hidden masters of the order, they may find themselves gifted with a blade.

Rahveon, came to consult with the Weapon Masters, returning after he had been trained there years before.  He found the blade outside of his room.  The blade has the Draconic runes for Retribution on it’s blade, formed by somehow discoloring the metal during it’s formation.

*Glancing Blow:* Ring of Protection +5, acts as a ring of sustenance: 62,500

At Heaven’s Height at Infernal’s Low
In the furious fight, pray the glancing blow

This small nonsensical poem is inscribed in the interior of the ring.  Rahveon bought it in a bazaar in the great trade city of Eashan.  He paid premium for it, but it has served him well.

*Tabard of Heroes:* Heroism Continuous 24,000

Fallen friends are painful, none so much as Aerifel.  A bard of great talent gave up adventuring when she fell in love with a farmer.  She gave her magic tabard to Rahveon so that he might continue the good fight.  She had always sought fame and riches and it was ironic that she gave all of that for a simple farmer.  She died in child birth of their twin sons.

*Lucky Kabba Bean:* Luck Stone 20,000

Kabba beans are abundant on the Undella.  They reputedly bestow luck on their possessors.  Apparently some actually do.

*Stone of Perfection:* +1 Competence bonus to attack, saves, skills, and ability checks, does not take an item slot 30,000

A perfectly spherical polished stone that Verain’til originally used as a tool in focusing Rahveon inward.  It gained it’s current properties when it went with Rahveon in his baptism in the water of the Endless Falls.

*Blinding Speed*: Haste Continuous 120,000

There are places in the Misty Forest where mortals have never walked.  The shining grotto was one such place, until Rahveon came.  Mostly on accident, he was pursuing a Fey assassin, who tricked him into the grotto.  For days he followed what he believed to be the assassin’s trail, being assaulted by the trick and pranks of the offended faeries.  Finally, all of his possessions stolen, covered in bruises, having been unable to sleep for days he threw his head back and laughed.

So impressed was the Faerie Queen at Rahveons perserverance and sense of humor that she ordered his possessions returned and gifted him with a pair of magic boots to help him pick up lost time in his pursuit of the Fey Assassin.

*Hallowed Cloak of Mystic Shielding*: +5 Resistance, +5 Luck, +5 Sacred bonus to Saves 162,500

The Bastion of Hope is a celestial fortress that resides in the heart of the abyss.  It is maintained to bring hope to those that would otherwise forsake it and to prove that while evil is powerful, it can not extinguish hope.  For years without counting the demons have thrown themselves at it’s walls and it’s celestial defenders remain none the less.

As happens some demon lord gets an idea to bring down the bastion.  Then the great horn is sounded and those pure of heart and mighty in deed hear its cry.  Velain’til heard it’s call and brought his promising student, Rahveon.  Words can not describe the battle that followed, power undreamed of was unleashed on the battlefield.  He ended up holding the gate together with a Planetar, Eansha.

They spent time together after the attack, recovery from their wounds and then Velain’til and Rhaveon returned.  A few weeks later Rahveon was summoned to Velain’til’s cave.  The dragon was in his true form, which in and of it self was unusual.  With a tremendous smile on his face he indicated a box.  “This arrived for you.”  There in he found the cloak and a note:  “For your service to the Light.  In the Highest Regards, Eansha.”

“I think she likes you.” The great wyrm teased.

“What is this, children’s school?”

The Great Wyrm only laughed.

*Drunik’s Mirror:* Mithral Large Shield +5, Animated 50,020

A large round shield that has no straps is designed to magically animate to defend those that don’t have a free hand.  It is also the work of Drunik, though not as proud of it as he was his “Masterpiece” he was still proud enough of it for it to carry his name.

*Fetishes of Snalrad:*
Fetish of Mind Shielding (Mind Blank, 15th level 1/day), 43,200
Fetish of Teleport (Teleport, 9th level 1/day) 16,200
Fetish of Sight (True Sight, 9th level 2/day) 44,900
Fetish of the Spirit (Commune, 9th level 1/day) 41,200
Fetish of Augury (Augury, 3rd level, at will) 13,325

Snalrad was a shaman who lived in the Endalo Marsh.  He was filthy, he never bathed and if his breath did not knock you over, his language certainly would.  He was also more aware of what happened around the world than any other living being and a good friend.  Not too long ago, Snalrad sent a message to Rahveon, asking him to come.  Rahveon made the journey to his small shack.  Inside he found a case with three small reed figures and a note explaining they were for him and how to use them.  He never saw Snalrad again.

*Reaping the Whirlwind:* Ring of Spell Turning: 98,280

When Verain’til presented his young apprentice (well young to a Great Wyrm Dragon) a ring of simple design, Rahveon asked what it was.  Verain’til only responded, it is Reaping the Whirlwind.  It has spelled the doom of more than one spell caster who did not thing before they cast.

*Fortune’s Favor:* (9th level, Continuous Divine Favor): 72,000

These bracers were on a fanatical priest who was attempting to sacrifice a village to “appease the gods.”  Unwilling to listen to reason, Rahveon was forced to slay him.  They appear as silvery bracers, but seem to reflect images as if through a flame.

+2 Composite Longbow (+25 Str): 11,200

This bow is lightly enchanted, but the most unique part of it is it’s composition.  He worked for weeks with the Bowyers of the Misty Forest trying to get a bow of appropriate size and power for him.  It is steel backed with adamantine.  The string is of woven steel and no one besides Rahveon has been able to string it.   

Handy Haversack: 2,000
Mirror of disguise (as hat of diguise, no item slot): 3,600
Eyes of Seeing:  (+12 competence bonus to spot): 14,400

2,475gp

History:

The shadowed darkness held no terror for him, the weapon masters of the Kital had taught him well.  They were demons of the darkest sort, their talons lashed at the soul as well as the body.

A third one materialized, then 4 more out of the ancient crypt.  They were hungry, they were foolish.  Retribution lashed out once, then a second time and the first one evaporated in a foul smelling smoke.  Without hesitation Rahveon continued the stroke taking the third unprepared and he was left without a target within range.

The shadow demons hesitated, watching two of their numbers being destroyed so easily drove doubt into their minds, that temporarily over came their hunger.

“Have you not heard of the Mountain Shaker, fiends?”  He laughed.  The best way to describe is voice was immense, loud and deep, it echoed off the walls.  His armored foot began to stomp out a rhythm shaking the ancient graveyard.  “Come, don’t tell me that I frighten terrible night demons like you, I am but one lone warrior and you fiends come from the black Abyss.  What could I do to you?”

The fiends stopped quaking, and began to move forward.  They could see their leader, massive and bloated with the souls of the innocent coming up behind him.   Reuchilk.  The reason he had come here.  He though Rahveon did not know he was there.  More the fool he was.

 Reuchilk drew up to his impressive 25 foot height, thinking to startle Rahveon, instead he spun and thrust Retribution up.

Then time slowed.

His thrust continued, he could see he had surprised Reuchilk, but something outside of his experience was happening.  The first wave hit, it felt like something was trying to rip him apart from the inside out, he could sense the other fiends immediately vaporize, the buildings around them began falling apart, but he and Reuchilk were made of sterner stuff.

Inch by inch his blade continued it’s ascent, the second wave hit, a wall of energy, swept over them, further breaking down what remained.  His magic protection shuddered, but held resolute against the onslaught.  When the wave passed, he was scorched, frozen, electrocuted, rent, burnt and a dozen other damages, but he lived.  As did Reuchilk, feeding off the souls he had stolen.

The last wave was the worst, the Unravelling.  It swept over them and what remained of the world, undoing creation, leaving nothing in it’s wake.  Lesser beings would not have the will to resist it, but again, caught like flies in amber, Reuchilk and Rahveon had the strength to resist the universe telling them they did not exist.

A moment hung between the mortal and the demon, knowledge that they had survived something they should not have and then time ceased to have any meaning, freeing them from whatever had stuck them in time.

Retribution lurched back into motion, striking true and Rhaveon was left utterly alone, floating in nothing.  The stress of what he had gone through was too much and he passed out.

Time, where he was, seemed to have no meaning, he slept, and he dreamt the memory of a dying existence.  Subconsciously he was aware that what had been or the ideas of what had been now spread out and dispersed and he was caught in it.

The only way to remain who he was was to concentrate on his past to keep it separate from the reality dying around him.

He was born Prince Rahveon, son of the King of the Dor’Kalien, Lord of the Undella.  He had grown strong and powerful, if somewhat imprudent.  His pride had brought him near ruin more than once, though his exploits kept the Shendru, the lorekeepers and story tellers of the Dor’Kalien in business, both with his prowess and his blunders.

Finally having enough of being mocked, he convinced the Shendru to teach him their path, so at least he could tell his side of the story.  His father looked on pleased that his son may be learning a bit more prudence and could learn not to fix all of his problems with his sword.

The Shendru taught him the basics and sent him out into the greater world.  He learned from the humans and elves and dwarves that abounded in the outside land.  He was occasionally attacked as being monstrous, but he always generous and understanding which usually won people over.

He made his way to the great jungle city of Kital, there he managed to impress the weapon masters enough, with his feats of strength, for them to teach him the way of the Vopar.  Finally his long journey ended and he returned home.

What he found when he got there shook him to the core, his people, mighty and strong, had fallen under the sway of a curse and had become enslaved to the Mikral, a group of religious fanatics that had an expansionistic empire.

Untrained in magic of that magnitude and not knowing what else to do, he climbed the Great Mountain that rose from the center of the Savannah to reach the cave of the Great Fire Serpent who legends said had founded the dynasty of kings whom which he was the heir.

He roused the sleeping dragon from his sleep and beseeched him for aid, which he delivered, but at a price.  He freed Rahveon’s people from their bondage and broke the curse that lay upon their spirit, but Rahveon himself must take up the dragon’s crusade against the darkness.

Rahveon became The Mountain Shaker, a one being army, under the tutelage of the Great Dragon, he quickly became a legend.  Eventually they became such a thorn in the side of certain dark organization, they pacted with Kalfshe, the Balor Prince.

The demon managed to catch Verain’tral unaware, and stole his soul.  But Rahveon eventually tracked him down and freed the Great Wyrm’s soul to go to it’s final rest, earning his title of Mountain Shaker in the battle.  (His music is percussion, and he stomps out a rhythm, and his strength is such that it shakes everything around it).

Finally the onslaught of the world memories passed and he regained consciousness.  He contemplated what had happened. And ultimately knew that everything that he had known, his friends, his family, his people, his world had just been taken from him.  For a while he wept at what he lost.

When his tears dried, he knew what he had to do.  In his life he had learned nothing was impossible, what has been done, can be undone.  He rose with a new purpose.

Appearance:

Imagine the term big.  Now apply it to a twelve foot tall elephant man.  No, that’s not quite right, make the arms and legs less thick and longer.  The body less bulky, more human.  His arms end in hands, his legs end in feet.  Closer.  Now imagine that same big elephant man instead of Grey, gold and instead of heavy hide, tight tiny scales over his entire body.  Now, get rid of the ears.  Tusks are shorter thicker and sharper.  Only three thick fingers ending in pure white claws.  Gigantic golden bat wing from his back and long golden “whiskers”, like a cat fish.  No, not that long, shorter, less than half the length of his trunk, which shouldn’t reach the ground like that, more waist length.  Yes I know he looks like Cthulhu.  Make a sanity check.  Quit looking at me like that.  You know a sanity check?  From Call of Cthulhu?  Bah no one plays the classics anymore.

Now armor him in resplendent silver full plate.  Cover his face with a faceplate.  No leave holes for his eyes.  Almost there.

Now think about him moving.  He is not a marionette, fluid, graceful, subtly.  A little crouched, yeah, like panther.  Perfect.


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## Kangaxx (Oct 25, 2004)

My tabletop epic game ended over a year ago, and I've been eager for another chance at one ever since.  Isida, kudos to you undertaking the task of dming the craziness that comes with epic pcs.   Anyway, here's my character.  I imagine he'll be completely unique, the only character from a phb race (halfling) with no templates.   

Pilmer Blurwind

Pilmer led an unspectacular life, as a worshipper and agent of (insert appropriate god name here.  Someone along the lines of Hextor, who believes in power through strength and is probably LE).  For 50 years he devoted himself to the church, believing that he would attain personal power through service and devotion to his god.  So his faith was quite shaken when he was sent to a monastery to retire,  because the church elders decided he was too old to continue his stealthy duties, which mostly consisted of infiltrating rival organizations finding their weaknesses from within.  

He spent a month at the monastery wondering how he could prove to both himself and those around him that he wasn't past his prime.  He though he might finally have a way to do that when a rumor reached the monastery, a rumor of a waterfall in the center of the world which contained not only water, but also the energy of all things leaving the world.  Pilmer didn't know if it really existed, or even where it might be found, but he knew his days in the monastery were over.  He gathered his things and set out in search of the center of the world.  

He ventured across the Endless Dunes of Kormak, simply because nobody knew what was on the other side.  His journey took him over the Sea of Regrets, though he never learned why the local villagers named it such, and eventually through the Misty Forest, where he finally reached his goal.  As he waded into the waters, and looked over the edge of oblivion, he felt himself being transformed.  He was infused with power beyond what he had ever imagined.

As the stepped out of the water, he realized the teachings of the church he had devoted his entire life to were nothing but lies.  The gods did not grant power; why would they?  They are already powerful.  The church was just a place where they gathered their sheep, and made sure that none of the flock stepped out of line.  But now he knew their secret, and he was going to show them that he was above their petty manipulations.  Using his newfound power he teleported back to the church where he had spent half a century, and snuck inside, easily assassinating it's leaders.  

Pilmer found a new purpose in life:  The gods had taken over and ruined the lives of himself and countless others, and now he was going to remove their influence from the world.  He returned to his old work of infiltrating churches, but now he was after lives, not information.  His campaign of destruction lasted for several months and through many churches before the gods finally retaliated:  They destroyed the world.  

Pilmer is convinced that the gods destroyed the world to stop him, but they failed, and now he has all the more reason to get his revenge.  

Pilmer is a NE halfling, Rogue 3/Wizard 5/Arcane Trickster 20/ Archmage 2.

He'll also be in the middle age category, if that's ok.


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## Kelleris (Oct 25, 2004)

Hey Isida.  I'd be interested in trying this, but I need to know what kind of timeline we're looking at for making characters and starting the game.  November's an unpleasant month for me, and making a 30th-level character takes, well, a while.  Maybe two, three whiles.

But I do have a character:

*Arion Kietsudoku*

*Concept:*  Arion is a reformed ninja, a straight bard with the half-fey template and just a dash of (ex-)assassin for the death attack.  He is, however, _very_ reformed.  He doesn't like to kill people, and hardly ever flips out.  Mostly, he passes himself off as a minstrel and all-purpose wanderer, and is habitually embarassed by his sometimes-awesome power level when around those not gifted with his unusual homeland.  He does have a trump card for when he needs it, though - his ancient (1100 years young!) ninja-to, which stores a fragment of his formerly-unpleasant personality within it.  When he draws it, he recovers the knowledge of his past; this makes him prone to occasionally vanishing, doing something ninja-y, and making others wonder how a moderately (for 30th level, c'mon!) talented bard could possibly have accomplished that task.

*Mechanical Stuff:*  Can we use some of the non-variant stuff from _Unearthed Arcana_?  I have in mind mainly the flaws (if you allow them) and the Item Familiar feat, used with the ninja-to to give Arion a pile of skill ranks he only has for use when he has the weapon out.

Additionally, how do you feel about case-by-case stuff if we post it here?  There are some things in _Quintessential Bard_ and a few spells from sources here and there that I'd like to use.  I'd post everything you'd need verbatim from the books here, of course.


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## Dalamar (Oct 25, 2004)

Grug was born in a small troll tribe at the outskirts of the Misty Forest. Born with a mind even more animalistic than most of his brethren, Grug kept itself in food by brute strength; stealing from smaller trolls and even sometimes tearing a limb off of one and eating that.
One night a hunting pack from their tribe strayed away from the path the pack-leader had intended. Grug was in this pack. And, to their chagrin, the druids of Misty Forest came to 'thin the herd' of trolls. It was a perfect chance with just a few trolls instead of the whole tribe close by. While definately not the smartest of the patch, Grug realised that they weren't going to make it and fled.

It ran. And when it thought it might collapse from exhaustion, it just pushed on. Finally its body could take no more and it collapsed. It layed there for a long while in a dreamless stupor. Once it woke up, it was thirsty, and there was water just nearby. It decided now was a good time to quench its thirst, and then figure out a way to get back to its tribe.
But when it drank the water, it was infused with great power, its claws and wits grew sharper, and its body grew more muscle-bound and tough. It knew now exactly what it was going to do.

Eat the tribe and become even stronger. 

Grug proceeded to do just that, and after it was done, it yearned for more power. It started roaming the lands of Endless Falls, killing strong adversaries in hopes of becoming even stronger itself. Then the gods struck down, and it had to abandon its quest just before reaching its goal. Now it was surrounded by other creatures as powerful as it, and it couldn't reap that power from them, for it understood that it needed that power to help defeat the gods. But some day...


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## perivas (Oct 25, 2004)

*Dice Roller*

Is it just me or are other people having problems with the dice roller?  DM, can you please roll my ability scores for me and just post them here?  I trust that you will be generous  Thank you very much!


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## Kangaxx (Oct 25, 2004)

I rolled stats for Pilmer, which are here. 

Not sure what I'm going to do with that 6...

If you're having trouble with the dice roller, make sure you put an entry in every blank, including the note one, which is not actually optional.


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## Orichin (Oct 25, 2004)

*Character concept*

My name is Raia Artos-Sari.  I have lived a great many years and have been a great number of people.  I once had a face I could recognize, but it is lost forever beneath a thousand faces of a thousand strangers, and not until I have worn every face may the curse be lifted and my soul be free of my impending damnation.  Once I was a bounty hunter of great fame, hired by many famous people long dead.  Today, I hunt strangers, each one gives me another face to break my curse.

Raia is a 400 year old succubus who generally wears the form of a dark haired human female with violet eyes, dresses in fine but durable garments, and wears large amounts of jewelry.  She is friendly to most but holds a grudge, and an inhuman detatchment about killing. 

edit-origionally human

thinking NE, 6 hd outsider, +6 lvl adjustment, 8 levels ranger, 10 levels mortal hunter


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## Wrahn (Oct 25, 2004)

Kangaxx said:
			
		

> I rolled stats for Pilmer, which are here.
> 
> Not sure what I'm going to do with that 6...
> 
> If you're having trouble with the dice roller, make sure you put an entry in every blank, including the note one, which is not actually optional.




Thanks Kangaxx, yeah that worked.


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## perivas (Oct 25, 2004)

Here are the rolls for me and my cohort.

Caira: 14,14,14,14,13,14
Loudbark:  13,12,9,11,15,9

http://krisinchico.brinkster.net/searchroll.asp?username=perivas


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## Orichin (Oct 26, 2004)

*character concept*

Sorry if I'm double posting, I thought I typed out my character concept earlier but I don't see it now, so here she is:

Raia Artos-Sari

Origionally human, female, cursed and polymorphed into the form of a succubus.  The curse can be lifted once she has killed a thousand people a thousand times over and worn each of their faces for an hour.  If she does not do this before being killed (as a succubus, being demon, she is immortal until killed), her soul will be destroyed with her body (just as normally occurse with an outsider).  For as long as she remains a succubus though, she cannot assume the shape she had as a human.

Raia was once a gypsie, she left her band and took up a life as a bounty hunter, and was rather good at it, until she took a bid on a priestess' daughter (and successor), kidnapping her and selling the girl to a noble for his wife.  The enraged priestess cast the curse on Raia, after finding that her daughter had stabbed the noble and had been executed within a week.

Raia now prefers the form of her first victim, the priestess' daughter, a tall, dark haired human woman with violet eyes, dressed in fine silks and brightly colored linnens, and a multitude of jewelry (8 rings, a choker, tongue ring, 5 earrings, 3 bracelets, and other less visible articles).  She carries a harp and a fiddle in cases strapped over her shoulder.  Raia is generally rather cheery, but holds a grudge, has a morbid outlook at times, and has an inhumanly detatched outlook on killing.

NE female succubus
+6 level adjustment, 6 outsider hit dice (succubus stats taken from MM3.5 and/or savage species style, take your pick if you have preference), 8 levels ranger (3.5, melee path), 10 levels mortal hunter(book of vile darkness)

my stats rolled are listed above


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## Ferrix (Oct 26, 2004)

Stats are listed under Bifurcated http://krisinchico.brinkster.net/searchroll.asp?username=Bifurcated

Isida, what I was thinking is going with the Paladin/Anti-paladin split character... making two characters with the same stats, each would have either the half-celestial or half-fiend template (respectively) since they're both +4 LA.  And then giving them their own distinct progression.  And then somehow work out equipment and how each one would be dominate or something like that, would this work with you?

So basically it'd be one character who is actually a fusion of two opposing characters.  It sounds cool to me, whatcha think?


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## perivas (Oct 26, 2004)

Here's my character.  I still have to put together Loudbark Laughingoak, who looks to be a treant who is a 8th level ranger/3rd level barbarian at this point for a total ECL of 23 and my animal companion...a simple wolf named Tessaru.  I am assuming stand wealth levels for Loudbark at this point.  Please let me know if it should be otherwise.

Player Name     : Perivas
Character Name  : Caira Greenleaf

STATS:
Race (ECL)      : Dryad (+6)
Class (Level)   : Druid (23) / Alienist (1)
.... Net Level  : 30
Alignment       : Neutral Good
Deity           : God of Nature
Gender          : Female
Size            : Medium
Speed           : 30 ft
Type            : Fey
Experience      : 443,000

LEVEL BREAKDOWN:
01-23: Druid
24:    Alienist

ABILITY SCORES
STR 20 (+5)  (base 14, +6 enhancement)
DEX 24 (+7)  (base 13, +8 dryad, +3 enhancement)
CON 24 (+7)  (base 14, +6 enhancement, +4 inherent)
INT 18 (+4)  (base 14, +4 dryad)
WIS 42 (+16) (base 14, +4 dryad, +7 level, +12 enhancement, +5 inherent)
CHA 25 (+7)  (base 14, +8 dryad, +3 inherent)

SAVES
+27    Fort (+1 dryad, +12 druid, +1 epic, +7 CON, +5 resistance, +1 luck)
+24    Refl (+4 dryad, +6 druid, +1 epic, +7 DEX, +5 resistance, +1 luck)
+41    Will (+4 dryad, +12 druid, +2 alienist, +1 epic, +16 WIS, +5 
             resistance, +1 luck)

BASIC STATS
HP 327 (ECL 2d8 + dryad 4d6 + druid 23d8 + alienist 1d4 + 196)
AC 44 (+7 DEX, +14 armor, +8 natural armor, +5 deflection)
  Touch 22
  Flat  37
Initiative +7 (+7 DEX)

MISCELLANEOUS EFFECTS
Damage resistance 15/Adamantine
Spell resistance 32
Immune to criticals
Sequester (without coma)
Blindsight 120 ft.
+1 caster level

BAB +15/10/5
  Melee   +22/17/12 (+15/10/5 base, +2 epic, +5 STR)
  Missile +24/19/14 (+15/10/5 base, +2 epic, +7 DEX)
  Grapple +22/17/12 (+15/10/5 base, +2 epic, +5 STR)

SKILLS (42 dryad; 96 druid; 108 INT) (1)cross-class for druid; (2)dryad skill
  Concentration +18
  Diplomacy +15
  Escape Artist(1)(2) +7
  Handle Animal +18
  Heal +10
  Hide(1)(2) +7
  Knowledge (arcana)(1) +8
  Knowledge (nature) +18
  Knowledge (planes)(1) +8
  Listen +18
  Move Silently(1)(2) +7
  Ride +10
  Sense Motive(1) +9 (18 ranks)
  Spellcraft +15
  Spot +18
  Survival +18
  Swim +10
  Use Rope(1)(2) +7 (+2 with bindings)

FEATS
ECL 01: Eschew Materials
ECL 03: Spell Penetration
ECL 06: Alertness
ECL 09: Natural spell
ECL 12: Leadership
ECL 15: Blindsight
ECL 18: Fast wild shape
ECL 21: Epic Leadership
ECL 24 (epic): Gargantuan wildshape
ECL 27 (epic): Colossal wildshape
ECL 30 (epic): Improved elemental wildshape

CLASS ABILITIES
Druid:
  Animal companion (+14 HD; +14 NA; +7 Str; 8 tricks; link; share spells; 
    devotion; multiattack; improved evasion)
  Nature sense
  Wild empathy
  Woodland stride
  Trackless step
  Resist nature’s lure
  Venom immunity
  A thousand faces
  Timeless body
  Wild shape (tiny or huge animal/plant 7/day, huge elemental 3/day)
  Spellcasting (druidic 23rd; spontaneous: summon nature’s ally)
  Languages: Druidic
  Weapon Proficiencies: club, dagger, dart, quarterstaff, scimitar, sickle, 
    shortspear, sling, and spear
  Armor Proficiencies: light, medium and shield (no metal allowed)
Alienist:
  Summon alien
  Spellcasting (+1 existing class)

RACE ABILITIES
  Fey
  +3 natural armor
  Damage reduction 5/cold iron
  Spell-Like Abilities: At will—entangle (DC 27), speak with plants, tree 
    shape; 3/day— charm person (DC 27), deep slumber (DC 29), tree stride; 
    1/day—suggestion (DC 29). Caster level 6th. The save DCs are Wisdom-
    based.
  Tree Dependent (Su): Each dryad is mystically bound to a single, enormous 
    oak tree and must never stray more than 300 yards from it. Any who do 
    become ill and die within 4d6 hours. A dryad’s oak does not radiate 
    magic. 
  Wild Empathy (Ex): This power works like the druid’s wild empathy class 
    feature, except that the dryad has a +6 racial bonus on the check.
  Languages: Common, Elven, and Sylvan
  Low-light vision
  Weapon proficiency: simple and longbow

SPELLS
  0th (6 per day):   create water x2, detect magic x2, light, read magic
  1st (5+4 per day): cure light wounds x2, detect animals or plants x2, 
                     entangle x2, longstrider, obscuring mists x2
  2nd (5+4 per day): animal messenger x2, barkskin x2, bull’s strength x2,
                     gust of wind x3
  3rd (5+4 per day): call lightning, consecrated harrier x2, cure moderate 
                     wounds x2, dominate animal, greater magic fang x2, 
                     neutralize poison
  4th (5+4 per day): air walk, dispel magic, flamestrike x2, freedom of 
                     movement, ice storm, last breath x2, scrying
  5th (5+3 per day): baleful polymorph x2, commune with nature x3, deathward,
                     regenerate moderate wounds, wall of fire
  6th (4+3 per day): antilife shell, greater dispel magic x2, stone tell, 
                     transport via plants, wall of stone x2
  7th (4+3 per day): creeping doom, firestorm, heal x3, true seeing, windwalk
  8th (4+3 per day): control plants x2, earthquake, finger of death x2, 
                     whirlwind, word of recall
  9th (4+2 per day): elemental swarm, foresight, invulnerability to elements 
                     x2, shapechange x2

ARMOR
  Absorbing Wild Leather Scale Armor (Elven Leafweave) +4 (AC +7, DEX +7, 
    penalty +0, 30ft.)
  Wild Dragonhide Large Shield of Arrow Deflection +5 (AC +7, penalty –2)

WEAPON
  Force Scimitar of Distance, Returning and Throwing +5 (+27/22/17 melee 
    atk, +29/24/19 ranged atk, 1d6+10 dmg, 18-20/x2)

EQUIPMENT
  1,440,000gp  Periapt of Epic Wisdom +12
    600,000gp  Rod of Invulnerability
    501,187gp  Staff of the Hierophant
    300,000gp  Ring of Sequestering
    200,385gp  Force Scimitar of Distance Returning and Throwing +5
    175,000gp  Mirror of Mental Prowess
    137,500gp  Tome of Clear Understanding +5
    110,000gp  Manual of Bodily Health +4
    108,000gp  Belt of Mighty Prowess
    101,085gp  Absorbing Wild Leather Scale Armor (Elven Leafweave) +4
    100,750gp  Wild Dragonhide Large Shield of Arrow Deflection +5
     97,950gp  Ring of Three Wishes
     82,500gp  Tome of Leadership and Influence +3
     75,000gp  Gem of Seeing
     50,000gp  Cloak of Greater Displacement
     50,000gp  Ring of Protection +5
     46,505gp  Javelin of Obliteration x5
     30,000gp  Orange Prism Ioun Stone
     20,000gp  Luck Stone
     18,012gp  Javelin of Greater Lightning x12
     18,000gp  Gloves of Dexterity +3
     16,000gp  Collar of Resistance +4
     10,000gp  Druid’s Vestment
      7,400gp  Bag of Holding (Type III)
      3,000gp  Bag of Tricks (rust)
      1,800gp  Efficient Quiver
      1,950gp  Scroll of Heal (13th level)
        900gp  Bag of Tricks (gray)
  -----------
  4,299,922gp  Total


CONCEPT:
Dryad druid and her treant barbarian/ranger cohort

BACKGROUND:
Caira Greenleaf was born a dryad in the most ancient groves of the Misty Forest which lie very close to the Endless Falls.  She was an extremely curious creature by dryad standards and longed to the see the sites of the world beyond this ancient forest.  She listened intently to the tales told by the druids who often visited her.  From them, she learned some of the druidic artists and helped to preserve the ancient groves that was her home.  In fact, she and a young druid named Dunathenik fell in love and were married before the eyes of the Great Druid Council.  With his love and the ability to grow her tree into one of the giants in the forest, she was able to wander further away through her husband’s eyes and the extended reach of her ancient oak.  But in time, Dunathenik passed away.  With his passing, her desire to venture forth grew greater and greater.

After a whole century, she decided to see the Endless Falls to find a means to extend the distance of the bond with her oak tree.  At a peril to her own life, she reached the Endless Falls which lie several miles from her oak tree.  She soaked in Its waters and drew into her great knowledge and potential for power.  She suddenly realized how to accomplish her desire.  Although she could never truly extend the link between herself and her oak, she could do something else.  She used this knowledge to transform her oak into a treant!

As soon as this treant came to be, it laughed out loud in great joy after centuries upon centuries of silence.  For this, she named him Loudbark Laughingoak.  They would go on many adventures together to preserve the Misty Forest and the ancient groves beyond.  Loudbark channeled his nature deposition towards forest ecology and his hatred for those destroying the forest to become an accomplished ranger and an able barbarian.  Meanwhile, Caira continued to grow her abilities as a druid…becoming one of the foremost practitioners of the druidic arts in the world.

In the times at the end of the world, Caira was sad to see the world destroyed.  While she was able to preserve a small grove of an ancient forecast, she was unable to save her more animate friends.  For now, she waits in the ancient grove, using divination powers to seek out other survivors and the ultimate fate of the world.


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## DemonAtheist (Oct 26, 2004)

wow you got a lot of replies quickly!

i am still interested in playing (as of now) a deep dwarf fighter 12/barbarian 18...or something similar to that.  i'll have time to go through the epic handbook hopefully tomorrow, what sections of it should i specifically read (that aren't covered in the SRD)?

if i'm accepted, i should b able to get a character to you by the end of the weekend at the latest, i don't think it could take longer than that.


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Oct 26, 2004)

I think the SRD covers most of the necessary mechanics, just remember that your character was a mover and shaker in your world before it was destroyed, so though you would be an barbarian/fighter, you better be a barbarian/fighter king or champion of the world or something.


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## Kelleris (Oct 26, 2004)

Is it acceptable to instead be a complete tool?    

My character (bless his 7 Wisdom) is pretty gullible, so he generally finds himself working for whoever can convince him he should.  He used to be quite a fanatical ninja, and it's only long years of practice and a deep pool of natural talent that made him (likely) more powerful than those who sought to control him.

He's since decided that the best way to keep that from happening again is not to stick with anything for too long, no matter how good it looks.  He's not terribly good at sticking with it, though; a decently good- or neutral-aligned party that catches his fancy would have little trouble keeping him around, with a little effort and some positive results to show for their actions.

Also, I'm desperately going to need to design some epic feats, most likely, as they recommend in the _ELH_.  They didn't exactly go out of their way to make multi-classed characters terribly viable, and most of the bard-specific feats aren't terribly suitable either (Ranged Inspiration?  Music of the Gods?  Pass...).


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## LazarusLong42 (Oct 26, 2004)

I'd love to try out an Epic Bard if you feel you still have room (I haven't counted exactly how many people are in).

Hrm... 30th level bard == +5 to Atk/Dmg every combat...


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Oct 26, 2004)

Kelleris said:
			
		

> Hey Isida.  I'd be interested in trying this, but I need to know what kind of timeline we're looking at for making characters and starting the game.  November's an unpleasant month for me, and making a 30th-level character takes, well, a while.  Maybe two, three whiles.
> 
> But I do have a character:
> 
> ...



  Traits and flaws, not as a general rule.  You must have a very good and compelling reason for your flaw, and it must be woven into your backstory and roleplayed accordingly.  Not going to use the Item Familiar feat, but you might want to check out the cool intelligent item rules in Book of Eldritch Might III.  

I want to stick with books I own, so no Quintessential Bard.

As for a starting date, I like to start sooner than later, but considering these are epic characters, I would probably aim for a mid-to-early November start.



			
				Ferrix said:
			
		

> Isida, what I was thinking is going with the Paladin/Anti-paladin split character... making two characters with the same stats, each would have either the half-celestial or half-fiend template (respectively) since they're both +4 LA. And then giving them their own distinct progression. And then somehow work out equipment and how each one would be dominate or something like that, would this work with you?
> 
> So basically it'd be one character who is actually a fusion of two opposing characters. It sounds cool to me, whatcha think?



  That sounds kinda neat.  Get them some generic equipment, and for the things that are very specific (unholy reaver versus holy avenger) get them close to the same cost.  So essentially you spend twice the gold, once on the good guy, once on the bad guy.  But for the equipment that switches, they are the same cost (or close) and unavailable to the opposing guy.  So Bad Guy might have an Unholy Reaver of Doom and a Rod of Unspeakable Evil, and the Good Guy would not have access to them.  Instead they change into a Holy Avenger and a Amulet of Super Fluffy Bunnies that he uses.  Does that make sense?

~~~

For all, I have made the first cut.  However, as schedules change, there will probably be flux.  I will be putting up two Rogue's Galleries, one for the current party, and one for the alternates.

People in the party as of right now (and their characters as I know them)- 

TheOneAboveAll

Ferrix - Cerebremancer, Psion/Constructor, fractured/dual-personality paladin or character

perivas - Caira Greenleaf (dryad druid with treant barbarian cohort)

Wrahn - Rahveon "Mountain Shaker" - African Elephant Animorph (from savage species) which has 2 ECL and 3 racial hit dice - ECL 2/ HD 3/ Bard 4/ Barbarian 5/ Dragon Disciple 16) 

Kangaxx - Pilmer Blurwind (NE halfling, Rogue 3/Wizard 5/Arcane Trickster 20/ Archmage 2)  Middle aged melagomaniac god-hater.

Kelleris - Arion Kietsudoku (bard/ex assassin)

Even though TheOneAboveAll hasn't posted yet, it was his thread that started me on this game, so I'm reserving him a slot.

Everyone else, please do continue on making your characters, because in my experience, there will be some shuffling of the roster before we begin.  I will have both Rogue's Galleries up with sample characters by Friday at the latest.


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Oct 26, 2004)

perivas, don't forget you get feats every four levels even in epic levels.  You have feats at 21, 24, 27, and 30 to take as well.


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## Mad Hatter (Oct 26, 2004)

Can I be added to your alternate list?  I have two character concepts but first are you allowing Dark Menagerie Creature Collection II?

1) Black Slaad, his history is typed
2) A weather cleric, her histroy is typed as well


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Oct 26, 2004)

I shall add you to the alternate list, but I am not using CCII.


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## Mad Hatter (Oct 26, 2004)

Tha's fine I have a human version of the weather cleric, and thanks for adding me.


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## Kelleris (Oct 26, 2004)

The main flaw I had in mind was Gullible (from a recent Dragon), and yes, he is.  Only slightly less so in ninja-mode, when the paranoia helps make up for the easy giving of trust.

Is there any way I can talk you into letting me use Item Familiar?  It's perfect for a number of reasons - it fits flavor-wise since the intelligence it grants is actually a sort of resonance with you, and it lets me stow a pile of ranks in ninja-skills (Tumble, Balance, Jump, etc.) and only use them when I'm in ninja form, while providing as a trade-off a ridiculous facility with said skills (hardly broken at this level, but it does at least give a bit of that "ninjas are teh leet" flavor we all know and covet).

EDIT: Oh, yeah, almost forgot.  Can we buy down LAs, per _Unearthed Arcana_?


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Oct 26, 2004)

Buying down LA - yes.  

Quote to me the exact issue from which this "gullible" flaw comes from so I can look it over.

And yes, you talked me into using the Item Familiar feat.


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## Kelleris (Oct 26, 2004)

It's Dragon 325, page 93.

*Gullible*
You believe what you see, and you trust others more than you should.
*Effect: * You suffer a -2 penalty on saving throws made to resist enchantment and illusion spells and effects.  You also suffer a -4 penalty on Sense Motive checks.​


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Oct 26, 2004)

Gullible will be fine.  As long as it's clearly in your backstory.


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## Kelleris (Oct 26, 2004)

Speaking of which, what would be the default oriental language in your game?  I have Rokugani listed, but I'm not sure if that works.

Sorry for all the questions.  I'm needy.   

Stats: 14, 14, 10, 7, 13, 17.  It's listed under Arion.


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Oct 26, 2004)

Uh... oriental language... Rokugani will do.


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## Wrahn (Oct 26, 2004)

Isida,

Did you note the extreme strength on my character (60), is this out of line or pretty much what you were expecting?

I pretty much am done with the character.  I think I need to post his bard spells.

Anyway, good to aboard on another of your games.


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Oct 26, 2004)

Extreme?  More like obscene!      Naw, I don't mind too much, just follow the basic rules of my games in that you don't make the DM cry.  I have to admit that one did make me a bit misty...


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## LazarusLong42 (Oct 26, 2004)

Well, so long as I'm on the alternates list, I might as well flesh out the character 

*Basic Idea*:  A half-celestial (human) bard with a special penchant for enchantment spells, and a knack for running things from behind the scenes.

*Background[/b}:

Sordan had never wanted to be the man in charge.  Quite the opposite, in fact; he was happy to leave the day-to-day workings of the world to others, and spent his early adult life as a troubador, moving from city to city, or nation to nation, singing, playing his pipes, chatting up the women, and generally making a nuisance of himself.  He fought when he had to, and even honed his fighing skills over time.

Shortly before his twenty-fifth birthday, he first heard the Lay of the Endless Falls, and that changed everything.  Was it really true?  Were there waters at the center of the world that would imbue the bather with powers beyond his imagining?  Were there people walking the streets--perhaps in this very inn--as he listened that had been there, had seen it?

He asked the man who had sung the song, but as usual the song had come to him from a friend of a cousin of a friend, and the origin was long since lost.

Yet Sordan was fascinated.  If the Falls existed, then he would find them.  And he spent his years gathering information, everything he could--even wresting secrets from those who would not  let them go willingly.  For a short while, he went slightly mad with the thrill of the chase, the hunt, and the sheer possibility of power.  He even laughed over the bodies of his former compatriots when they found the falls--and he killed them, one by one.

Only he would have this power.

He stepped into the Falls--and in the blink of an eye, everything changed again.  He saw his soul, tarnished, blackened by what he had become--and then he learned of his celestial origins, of the heritage that he had shattered by his deeds.  And as he stood in the Falls, he willed himself a second chance.

Now, he learned the ways of politics, stepping into the background of first cities, and then nations.  He was never the man in charge--but he was city manager, or royal advisor, or master of lore, the man to whom everyone turned for advice.  He sowed peace among the nations, where before there had been war; he sowed amnesty where ruthless killing had been paramount.  He created new governments, and acted as interim regent when rulerships were in dispute.

His quest was to refrain from taking power--and only to give it where he could.

And then the world was taken out from under him by the gods.  First he was sad, but then he was angry--for the very beings that should have been giving power in the first place had taken it instead for their own selfish uses.

They would have to be taught.*


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## Ferrix (Oct 26, 2004)

Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> Extreme?  More like obscene!      Naw, I don't mind too much, just follow the basic rules of my games in that you don't make the DM cry.  I have to admit that one did make me a bit misty...




I actually have seen worse at lower levels scary enough to say.

That and it gives me a flashback to the days that I used to play Rifts... *shudder*


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## Kelleris (Oct 26, 2004)

Okay, just checked out the half-fey template in the _Fiend Folio_, and I need to ask about some changes to it.

It grants -2 Con, +2 Wis, +2 Dex, and +4 Cha -> can I swap the bonus to Wis for a bonus to Int?

It also grants wings (double land movement, good maneuverability), and that's just not gonna work.  I mean, what's the point of insane Jump, Climb, etc. if you have wings?  So I'd like to drop those.

And what would it take to extend the spell-like abilities granted into epic levels?  Maybe a custom epic feat?


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## Ferrix (Oct 26, 2004)

For the split-personality paladin, can I drop the wings on the half-celestial and half-fiend templates to drop their LA to +3?


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## perivas (Oct 26, 2004)

Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> perivas, don't forget you get feats every four levels even in epic levels.  You have feats at 21, 24, 27, and 30 to take as well.




I edited my character a bit, mostly in terms of items.  Anyways, I think that I did my feats right.  I pick one up for level 1 and every 3rd HD with the bonus one for druid level 24.  It's just that the dryad is a LA +2 with 4 HD to start...leaving me with just 24 druid levels and a total of 28 HD.


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## Zack2216 (Oct 26, 2004)

Well, I've had a day to think about this. I've decided that I would like to play a Half-Red Dragon/Half-Human lvl 27 wilder, named Su'ryuu. For the most part she looks human, except for her right arm, which is scaled a bright red, and is larger than normal (extra beefy, see main character from dragon kind for an example). Also, she has glowing red draconic eyes, and her eyes each have a stripe of glittering red scales that starts from above each eye, and ends half way at each cheek. She has black hair, and is otherwise pale. She dresses in blacks and reds, preferring to wear loose warrior's garments.

Origin:
The Great Wyrm Red Dragon named Tzerelixion, like most other dragons of his ilk, demanded regular sacrifices, usually taking handful's of virgin maiden's every other month or so when he didn't demand cattle or other herd animals. 
However, centuries of the same practice can get borring, but that was barely a hint at the back of his mind, what with the regular heroe's raiding his illustrious lair, failing only to be killed and their gear sold back to the town at market price. He knew how to fill his lair, and had been doing so for hundreds of years, until one curious day...

"Good afternoon, Tzerelixion." He hadn't noticed him come in. But that didn't matter. He immediately drew breath, and unleashed a torrent of wicked flame to silence the intruder. "Please, I have better things to do then to kill adventurers..." "Ah, but I am no adventurer." Tzerelixion, surprised, "What? Ok, you have some good protection there, what do you want? You have my attention" He said, thinking to himself to dispel whatever protections he had as soon as his breath weapon was usable again. "Please, I am immune to whatever assualt you could attempt. However, I am not here to releave you of your treasures. I am here to make a proposition. But let me ask you a question. Aren't you bored of all this?" Tzerelixion thought for a moment, and the seed was sown. "If answering this will get rid of you, then yes, I am a little tired of the same thing day afterday. I've already raised a family, but my mate left me some time ago, I here she was killed by dragon slayers. Since then, it's been the same thing, day in and day out. Now, be gone, I'm quite fine with my circumstance." But, the stranger reply's "Ah, but that is where you are wrong. I'll wager with you. I will double your current horde if you can sway the king's daughter without the use of magic, and produce a child." To which Tzerelixion answers "And if I don't?" "You will lose nothing. I just wish to make mischief, and I was always a fan of romance." "Well then, can I atleast alter my appearance to match that of her race?" "Yes, of course, I wouldn't deny you that." and at the finish of his final statement, the stanger disappeared.

It took several years, but Tzerelixion eventually wood the princess with gifts of treasure, magical parlor tricks, and great charisma. As soon as Tzerelixion married her and took her in the bed chamber, he disappeared, satisfied that he had completed his side of the wager. When He returned, he found that the stanger had kept his end, and the dragons horde was doubled. However, those years spent with his wife had changed him. He decided that while he would leave the humans to do as they will, he would bless his child.

With the birth of the child, the mother, who had grown bitter and depressed since the disappearance of her husband, had grown addled with the intense grief of her loss, and the pain of the coming child. On her death bed, the night the child was born, the only word that escaped her mouth when she laid her eye's apon the child "Red." The name stuck, because the girl child had a red scaled right arm, and red reptillian eyes.

Tzerelixion caught wind of his child's birth, but didn't want to reveal that it was his child. He disguised himself as an aged sorcerer, come to bless the child. But when he had come to view the child, something seemed, off. He didn't sense any of the arcane, sorcerous power that is usually linked with chromatic dragon offspring. Saddened at this, he cast a couple spells and went on his way. It would be years before he would visit the child again.

In the mean time, Red had a troubled upbringing. Her parents resented her, because it had been revealed to them that she has a red dragon's blood in her, possibly that of Tzerelixion. They also resented her because she was an abandoned child, and when they looked at her, they were reminded of a grieving daughter that lost her sanity and her life because of this child.

She grew fast, and was very intelligent. She learned quickly of her parent's resent for her, and vowed that her parents would recognize her, one way or another. She was 10 before she was visited by her father again, who wisked her away for a year on threat of destroying the entire country. The parents didn't care, and were glad to be rid of her. In that year, she learned that Tzerelixion was her father, not some terrible beast that consumed maidens for sport. She found comfort in the power promised to her by her father, and so they began planning. Red found that while she had no arcane talent, she did have psionic talent, that was fueled by the rage and torment of an unloved daughter. 

In that year, Red had traveled the planes, met Crystal Dragons that had given her excelerated training. One month before she returned, she found her way to the Falls, where she had finished her training. 

Standing outside her home's city walls, she sent a short message to the king. "In death, I shall know your love." As soon as he finished the letter, the city was being seiged, not by one woman, but by an army of them, moving around instantly from place to place unleashing terrible havoc apon the city. The king, watching his city, not knowing what could cause this, suddenly saw his daughter, now grown. "Red." "No grandfather, Su'ryuu, The Red Dragon." Her eyes now blazing with psionic might and great rage, she shattered his mind and sent him to one of the infinite layers of hell. Her heart full of joy, with the aroma of burning bodys and screaming commners all around, she finally, for the first time in her life, knew joy. "Well, time to finish what I started."

And so, the nation of Draxan had been established. She had either slaughtered or subjigated all in her country that didn't have any draconic heritage. Her main metropolis of Crimson was entirely populated by half dragons of all kinds. He had no need of an army, because she was her own. Able to solve conflicts in only one or two days, she was easily able to conquer the weaker surrounding lands. "I see you have made well for yourself." A stranger stated. After sending a great ball of energy through the stranger, she noticed something odd about him, it was as if he were an apparition. "Who are you?" "I am a friend of your fathers. You know, the gods are getting worried, and I have come back to take my gift." With a simple snap, he disappeared. _I feel strange..._ After trying out most her powers, she had assumed nothing had changed, until she had tried to duplicate herself at the scale she had used to conquer entire nations. She had lost her ability to do so. Immediately, there were great beams of light, shining and bringing with them utter destruction, all across the country side. Wherever they touched, be it woodland, mountain, cottage or iron wall, nothing was left but leveled blasted landscape. "I see that I am losing more gifts than one. I hope to see you again, father." And she blacked out, a great beam of light disintigrated her very citadel before her eyes.

Well, I hope that this wasn't too stereotypical, and that it was a good read.


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## Kangaxx (Oct 26, 2004)

Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> Extreme?  More like obscene!      Naw, I don't mind too much, just follow the basic rules of my games in that you don't make the DM cry.  I have to admit that one did make me a bit misty...




While we're on the topic of crying dms, I thought of something with Pilmer that's probably past that line, so I want to see what you think.  I designed him expecting his primary means of attack to be using ray sneak attacks.  So tonight I was looking through the spells available to see what good ranged touch spells I could use.  Scorching Ray was the obvious best choice, with 3 sneak attacks for 1 2nd level spell.  Then I looked in Tome and Blood... where there are spells such as Acid Orb that allow up to 15 attacks with a single spell.  I like slaughtering stuff as much as the next guy, but 15 attacks for 13d6 damage each seems a bit excessive.  So my first question is, is there some rule I overlooked that would prevent this from working?  Secondly, assuming it does work, do you want house rule it somehow, or have me just ignore those spells when I fill Pilmer's spellbook?


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## Serpenteye (Oct 26, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Serp,
> 
> You have to be a 20th level sorcerer to enter into Epic Sorcerer.
> 
> (I think that rule is in the errata, it may be in a Q&A, but it makes sense, you can't just jump 5 levels and go from 4 to 9 for instance, even if you are 9th level and the epic level sorcerer starts at 21st level)




 I really hate these constant revisions. How is anyone supposed to keep up with the rules when they change all the time? 
The rule might be reasonable when applied to characters with levels in other base classes, but the progression of the archmage is a continuation of the levels of the base-class (Wizard or Sorcerer). Can it really be their intention that epic classes are only accessible to single-classed characters? That utterly sucks.
I'm not saying that you are wrong, and I'm not attacking you, I'm just expressing my annoyance towards WoTC. I need those epic bonus feats, damnit.



			
				Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> Also, after looking at the Emacipated Spawn, it doesn't really fit the theme I was looking for, so would you mind choosing something else Serpenteye?




Huh? I'd play a Human Sorcerer/Archmage.



			
				Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> Buying down LA - yes.




How does that work?


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## LazarusLong42 (Oct 26, 2004)

SerpentEve--

Actually... I think he *is* wrong.  You're a 20-th level sorcerer because of those Archmage levels.  Of course, you're stuck with a familiar five levels below you... because that's such a deficit...


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## Serpenteye (Oct 26, 2004)

LazarusLong42 said:
			
		

> SerpentEye--
> 
> Actually... I think he *is* wrong.  You're a 20-th level sorcerer because of those Archmage levels.  Of course, you're stuck with a familiar five levels below you... because that's such a deficit...




I hope so... Thanks


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## Thanee (Oct 26, 2004)

Kangaxx said:
			
		

> So my first question is, is there some rule I overlooked that would prevent this from working?



 Yes.



> Secondly, assuming it does work, do you want house rule it somehow, or have me just ignore those spells when I fill Pilmer's spellbook?



 Obsolete.

 Bye
 Thanee

 P.S. Hey, you didn't ask what rule.


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## Thanee (Oct 26, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> I really hate these constant revisions. How is anyone supposed to keep up with the rules when they change all the time?



 Can't say, that I'm an expert with epic stuff, but that rule was there from the beginning AFAIK. You can only go into an epic class, if you have maxed out the corresponding base class or PrC.

 If you have a PrC, you are meant to continue with the epic progression of that class.

 Now, of course 5 level PrC, like Archmage, not having any epic progression doesn't really help much in this case.

 A simple and obvious solution would be to make a Sorcerer 6/Some Sorcerous PrC 10/Archmage 4/Epic Some Sorcrous PrC 10 for 30th level.

 Bye
 Thanee


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## Wrahn (Oct 26, 2004)

The problem with Prestige classes is that they usually give less epic feats than the "pure" classes.  However that is somewhat balanced by the fact the regular advancement sorcerer is kind of lame.

I feel your pain Serp, I really do.  I looked high and low for that answer when I was making my epic wizard a while back.  Ultimately I decided that I would only take a couple of levels of Archmage (of course we were playing 32nd level so I think it cost me a feat).

Let me see if I can dig up a link.

Edit

Okay, I think, if I remember correctly, that it is in the Epic FAQ.  But it is a download and I am at work.  Here is a link to the page where you can download it http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Oct 26, 2004)

Kelleris said:
			
		

> Okay, just checked out the half-fey template in the Fiend Folio, and I need to ask about some changes to it.
> 
> It grants -2 Con, +2 Wis, +2 Dex, and +4 Cha -> can I swap the bonus to Wis for a bonus to Int?
> 
> ...



  You can drop the wings.  Though I don't think I'm going to let the +2 Wis be a +2 Int.  Fey creatures always seem more wise than scholarly.  And how exactly did you want those spell-like abilities modified?



			
				Ferrix said:
			
		

> For the split-personality paladin, can I drop the wings on the half-celestial and half-fiend templates to drop their LA to +3?



  That's fine with me.  



			
				perivas said:
			
		

> I edited my character a bit, mostly in terms of items. Anyways, I think that I did my feats right. I pick one up for level 1 and every 3rd HD with the bonus one for druid level 24. It's just that the dryad is a LA +2 with 4 HD to start...leaving me with just 24 druid levels and a total of 28 HD.



  Even so... wouldn't you get normal feats at level 20 and level 23?  Not just your epic druid bonus, but the regular feats?


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## Kangaxx (Oct 26, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Yes.
> 
> 
> Obsolete.
> ...




How very.... helpful.

Perhaps you could be so kind as to tell me what this rule is and where to find it?


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Oct 26, 2004)

Kanagaxx - I think it comes from the rule that no matter how many attacks you make in the round you're eligible for a sneak attack, only the first attack is sneaky.  So if you have 15 orbs of acid, only the first gets the sneak attack damage, and the rest are normal.


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## Kelleris (Oct 26, 2004)

Hmm, well, I'll just drop the +2 Wis, then, since I'd like to keep the 7 that the character originally had.  Also, just FYI, looking at the fey in the MM, it is almost always the case that they have a higher Wis than Int (the only exception is the Pixie).  However, the difference is usually just one point (same mod, and the wisdom score is odd), and 3 points at the most.  Maybe if I track down a particularly bright fey parent?  Alternatively, could I drop the Con penalty?  Fey are as hardy as normal humans, although they aren't exactly resplendent with bonus hps.

As for the spell-like abilities, all I meant was taking the listed HD progression and taking it up to epic levels (it caps at 20 now).  That would perhaps be a fair trade-off for the wings and possibly for the Wisdom bonus?


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## Kangaxx (Oct 26, 2004)

Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> Kanagaxx - I think it comes from the rule that no matter how many attacks you make in the round you're eligible for a sneak attack, only the first attack is sneaky.  So if you have 15 orbs of acid, only the first gets the sneak attack damage, and the rest are normal.




I'm not familiar with that rule.  I can't find it in the phb or dmg.


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## Serpenteye (Oct 26, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> If you have a PrC, you are meant to continue with the epic progression of that class.
> 
> Now, of course 5 level PrC, like Archmage, not having any epic progression doesn't really help much in this case.
> 
> A simple and obvious solution would be to make a Sorcerer 6/Some Sorcerous PrC 10/Archmage 4/Epic Some Sorcrous PrC 10 for 30th level.




And in the end that solution would surely result in a much more convoluted min-maxed character than the very straight-forward character I want. 
I can see the issue being decided either way, as far as the actual rules are concerned, it's simply a question of DM judgement. If Isida rules that my proposed character is unviable I'll have to go with a single class Sorcerer and try to make the best of the situation. 



			
				Wrahn said:
			
		

> Okay, I think, if I remember correctly, that it is in the Epic FAQ.  But it is a download and I am at work.  Here is a link to the page where you can download it http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a




I didn't find anything about the issue there.


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## Wrahn (Oct 26, 2004)

Darn it, I thought that was it.  I will keep looking then.


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Oct 26, 2004)

I don't know where I saw that rule about sneak attacks, but I think it was in the FAQ, or on the WotC boards or something.  Otherwise you get silly combinations like 15 acid orbs with 13d6 sneak attack damage apiece.  Anyway, that is my ruling on it.

Kelleris - I think that would be a good-trade off.  What kinds of abilities were you thinking about for the higher levels?

Serpenteye - one must have 20 levels of sorcerer to take epic sorcerer levels.  That's the trade off for prestige class abilities at lower levels.  So you could take epic levels of archmage if you max that out, but no levels of epic sorcerer until you are a 20th level sorcerer.  Not with 20 level of spellcasting, but with 20 levels of the spellcasting class.  The bonus epic feats are the reward for sticking with straight sorcerer for 20 levels.


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## Ferrix (Oct 26, 2004)

Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> Kanagaxx - I think it comes from the rule that no matter how many attacks you make in the round you're eligible for a sneak attack, only the first attack is sneaky.  So if you have 15 orbs of acid, only the first gets the sneak attack damage, and the rest are normal.




Any attack that meets the qualifications for sneak attack gets the sneak attack damage; however, an attack action or spell that has multiple attack rolls only gets the sneak attack damage once.

Thus, if you have a flat-footed opponent and say you did a full-attack on him with three attacks, each attack is eligible for sneak attack damage.  Now the same flat-footed opponent, but this time you cast scorching ray to toast him, that's 3 or 4 rays in one spell, however sneak attack damage only gets applied to one ray (supposedly).

The only thing I have seen that contradicts this, is the improved manyshot feat from the XPH which allows you to make an attack roll with each arrow you fire during a manyshot standard action, and precision based damage (etc.) applies to each, and each one can potentially crit.


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## Thanee (Oct 26, 2004)

Kangaxx said:
			
		

> I'm not familiar with that rule.  I can't find it in the phb or dmg.




Well, you won't find it written in clear words there, really.

Sneak Attack bonus is applied to an attack and the spell as a whole is considered an attack (not every attack roll), therefore you only apply it once, basically.

Should be in one of the FAQs, but don't ask me where exactly. Could've been in Tome & Blood also. It definitely works that way ("precision damage" in general is only applied once per attack), however.

Maybe ask the question over in the rules forum and with some luck someone can quote you any relevant passages. 

Here's a similar/comparable quote from the 3.5 FAQ, that should show the trend:



> *Can you use Manyshot with a sneak attack? If so, do all
> the arrows deal sneak attack damage?*
> You can sneak attack with Manyshot. If you do, only one
> arrow in the volley deals sneak attack damage.




Bye
Thanee


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## Ferrix (Oct 26, 2004)

In response to the talk on the epic progression of the sorcerer.

Thus the reason epic levels suck for characters who are multiclassed core-classes.  A rogue 10/fighter 10 has got a hard road ahead unless he takes an Epic prestige class once he crosses over into epic land.


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## Wrahn (Oct 26, 2004)

Actually depending on if you want to advance as a fighter or not, you may not be losing anything:



			
				3.5 SRD said:
			
		

> Whenever an epic character is allowed to pick up a feat as part of character level advancement, he or she can choose either a nonepic feat or an epic feat




and gaining 4 attacks from the 17 BAB is probably worth losing out on the 2 bonus feats if you were going up as a rogue.  No actually the Fighter/Rogue you describe I think would be pretty balanced overall.


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Oct 26, 2004)

Ferrix said:
			
		

> Any attack that meets the qualifications for sneak attack gets the sneak attack damage; however, an attack action or spell that has *multiple attack rolls* only gets the sneak attack damage once.
> 
> Thus, if you have a flat-footed opponent and say you did a *full-attack on him with three attacks*, each attack is eligible for sneak attack damage.  Now the same flat-footed opponent, but this time you cast scorching ray to toast him, that's 3 or 4 rays in one spell, however sneak attack damage only gets applied to one ray (supposedly).
> 
> The only thing I have seen that contradicts this, is the improved manyshot feat from the XPH which allows you to make an attack roll with each arrow you fire during a manyshot standard action, and precision based damage (etc.) applies to each, and each one can potentially crit.



  Emphasis mine.  But those two phrases seem to contradict each other as well.


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## perivas (Oct 26, 2004)

Here are the cohort--Loudbark Laughingoak--and animal companion--Tessaru--for Caira Greenleaf.

*Player Name     : Perivas
Cohort Name     : Loudbark Laughingoak*

STATS:
Race (ECL)      : Treant (+12)
Class (Level)   : Barbarian (4)/Fighter(4)/Ranger(3)
.... Net Level  : 23
Alignment       : Neutral Good
Deity           : God of Nature
Gender          : Male
Size            : Huge
Speed           : 30 ft
Type            : Plant
Experience      : ?

LEVEL BREAKDOWN:
01: Ranger
02: Barbarian
03: Fighter
04: Ranger
05: Barbarian
06: Fighter
07: Ranger
08: Barbarian
09: Fighter
10: Barbarian
11: Fighter

ABILITY SCORES
STR 42 (+16) (base 15, +18 treant, +3 level, +6 enhancement)
DEX 12 (+1)  (base 12, -2 treant, +2 enhancement)
CON 30 (+10) (base 13, +10 treant, +1 level, +6 enhancement)
INT 11 (+0)  (base 9, +2 treant)
WIS 17 (+3)  (base 11, +6 treant)
CHA 11 (+0)  (base 9, +2 treant)

SAVES
+31    Fort (+5 treant, +4 brb, +4 fgt, +3 rgr, +10 CON, +5 resistance)
+15    Refl (+2 treant, +1 brb, +1 fgt, +2 feat, +3 rgr, +1 DEX, +5 
             resistance)
+15    Will (+2 treant, +1 brb, +1 fgt, +1 rgr, +2 feat, +3 WIS, +5 
             resistance)

BASIC STATS
HP 388 (5d8 ECL, 7d8 treant, 4d12 brb, 4d10 ftr, 3d8 rgr + 230 CON)
AC 48 (+1 DEX, +20 armor, +16 natural armor, +3 deflection, -2 size)
  Touch 9
  Flat  47
Initiative +1 (+1 DEX)

MISCELLANEOUS EFFECTS
Immune to fire
Does not need food or water

BAB +16/11/6/1
  Melee   +30/+25/+20/+15 (+16/11/6/1 base, -2 size, +16 STR)
  Missile +15/10/5/0 (+16/11/6/1 base, -2 size, +1 DEX)
  Grapple +44/+39/+34/+29 (+16/11/6/1 base, +8 size, +16 STR, +4 GG)

SKILLS (42 dryad; 96 druid; 108 INT) (1)cross-class for barbarian; (2)treant
    skill
  Diplomacy +3
  Hide –9*
  Intimidate +6
  Knowledge (nature) +6
  Listen +8
  Sense Motive +8
  Spot +8
  Survival +8 (+2 aboveground)

FEATS
HD  01: Power Attack
HD  03: Improved Bull Rush
HD  06: Improved Sunder
HD  09: Awesome Blow
HD  12: Improved Grapple
HD  15: Lightning Reflexes
HD  18: Iron Will
Rgr 01: Track
Rgr 02: Two-weapon Fighting (Combat Style)
Rgr 03: Endurance
Fgt 01: Weapon Focus (mace)
Fgt 02: Improved Critical (mace)
Fgt 04: Weapon Specialization (mace)

CLASS ABILITIES
  Ranger: favored enemy (undead), track, wild empathy, combat style,
          Endurance
  Barbarian: fast movement, rage 2/day, trap sense +2, uncanny dodge
  Fighter: bonus feats

RACE ABILITIES
  Space/Reach: 15 ft./15 ft.
  Animate trees
  Double damage against objects
  Trample 2d6+STR*1.5
  Damage reduction 10/slashing
  Low-light vision
  Plant traits
  Vulnerability to fire

ARMOR
  Elven Darkleaf full plate +5 (AC +13, DEX +3, penalty -3, 20ft.)
  Dragonhide Large Shield of Arrow Deflection +5 (AC +7, penalty –2)

WEAPON
  Huge Mace of Ruin +7 (+38/33/28/23 melee atk, 2d6+25 dmg, 19-20/x2)

EQUIPMENT
  1,000,312gp  Huge Mace of Ruin +7
    240,000gp  Ring of Fire Immunity
    108,000gp  Belt of Mighty Prowess
     49,650gp  Dragonhide Large Shield of Arrow Deflection +5
     28,000gp  Elven darkleaf full plate +5
     25,000gp  Cloak of Resistance +5
     18,000gp  Ring of Protection +3
     18,000gp  Amulet of Natural Armor +3
      8,000gp  Gloves of Dexterity +2
      4,000gp  Clear spindle ioun stone
        900gp  Bag of Tricks (gray)
  -----------
  1,499,862gp  Total


*Cohort Name: Name     : Tessaru*

STATS:
Race (ECL)      : Wolf
Alignment       : Neutral
Gender          : Female
Size            : Medium
Speed           : 30 ft
Type            : Animal
Experience      : N/A

ABILITY SCORES
STR 20 (+5)  (base 13, +7 companion)
DEX 15 (+2)  (base 15)
CON 15 (+2)  (base 15)
INT 2  (-4)  (base 2)
WIS 12 (+1)  (base 12)
CHA 6  (-2)  (base 6)

SAVES
+16    Fort (+10 wolf, +4 resistance, +2 CON)
+16    Refl (+10 wolf, +4 resistance, +2 DEX)
+10    Will (+5 wolf, +4 resistance, +1 WIS)

BASIC STATS
HP 104 (16d8 + 32)
AC 28 (+2 DEX, +16 natural armor)
  Touch 12
  Flat  26
Initiative +2 (+2 DEX)

MISCELLANEOUS EFFECTS
Devotion
Improved evasion
Link
Shared Spells

BAB +12/7/2
  Melee   +17/+12/+7 (+12/7/2 base, +5 STR)
  Grapple +17/+12/+7 (+12/7/2 base, +5 STR)

SKILLS (32)
  Hide +5
  Jump +5
  Listen +5
  Move Silently +5
  Spot +5
  Survival +7* (+4 for tracking by scent)

FEATS
HD  01: Track
HD  03: Weapon Focus (bite)
HD  06: Combat Expertise
HD  09: Improved Trip
HD  12: Endurance
HD  15: Die Hard
Cmp   : Multiattack

RACE ABILITIES
  Low-light vision
  Scent
  Trip (Ex): A wolf that hits with a bite attack can attempt to trip the 
             opponent (+1 check modifier) as a free action without making a 
             touch attack or provoking an attack of opportunity. If the 
             attempt fails, the opponent cannot react to trip the wolf. 

WEAPONS
  Bite 

EQUIPMENT
  Collar of Resistance +4


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## Ferrix (Oct 26, 2004)

Ah Isida, there is a difference however.

Full-attack action is different from an attack action.  An attack action is the individual attack you make (read: roll) to hit your opponent (or do other various combat manuevers).  A standard attack action uses a standard action (leaving you with a move action) letting you make one attack action.  A full-attack action is a full round action where you can get multiple attack actions from high BAB and other things (haste, twf, etc.).

Let's go back to the original 3rd edition when you had shuriken that you threw three with one attack.

With one attack action you received three attack rolls.  Now only the first one in this attack action would inflict sneak attack damage.  Now if you did a standard attack action, you'd have gotten one attack action, and consequently three attack rolls, and only one would be eligible for sneak attack damage.  However if you took a full-attack action (say with three attacks from BAB), you'd get three attack actions, and consequently nine attack rolls (three per attack action), one of each would be eligible for sneak attack damage.

Now that shuriken have been changed it's no longer a problem with weapons.  However, ranged touch attack spells that give multiple rays per single casting however still function as a single action thus providing only one chance for bonus sneak attack damage.

Thus if I go before someone in an opening round (not the surprise round) and I'm in a position to make a full-attack, they are still flat-footed (as they haven't gone yet), every attack action I make is eligible for sneak attack damage.  Thus if I hit with three attacks with a shortsword while they were flat-footed, and my sneak attack was +10d6, each attack would get the bonus sneak attack damage, for 1d6+10d6, 1d6+10d6 and 1d6+10d6.  For a whopping damage total of 33d6 damage (avg. of 115.5 dmg).  Which is pretty good but not outrageous as it's limited to specific circumstances (i.e. a sneak attackable foe & flanking, denied Dex or flat-footed).

I think that's about it.


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Oct 26, 2004)

I agree with Ferrix.  The issue is now closed.


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## Wrahn (Oct 26, 2004)

perivas,

Don't you need epic leadership to have a cohort that powerful?

Also you forgot to subtract it's size modifier from it's armor class.

I have the Hit Points at 388 (5d8 from ECL, 7d8 from Plant, 4d12 from Barbarian, 4d10 from Ranger, 3d8 from Ranger + 230 from Con)


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## Thanee (Oct 27, 2004)

Heh. Was about to post the same example with the shuriken, but Ferrix has already explained everything pretty good. 

Bye
Thanee


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## Kelleris (Oct 27, 2004)

Okay, here's an action-packed post for you, Isida.  I'm just about done with the character, I just need to query you on a few more things.

First off, poisons.  I'd really like to use them, but obviously there isn't a poison in the world (er, in the DMG) that will do anything at 30th level.  Ergo, I'd like to know if I can use the system in Blue Devil Games's Poison book.  Basically, I'll just a whip up a few poisons with suitably high save DCs using that system and then run them by you when I'm done.

Second, I have a possible spell-like progression through 40th level for the modified half-fey template.  I used some epic spells, on the theory that you wouldn't mind just the spells as spell-likes, since there's no designing new ones and no rolling Spellcraft:

21-22  _reverse gravity _ 3/day
23-24  _summon behemoth_
25-26  _elemental swarm_
27-28  _verdigris_ at will
29-30  _regenerate _ 3/day
31-32  _epic repulsion _ (undead and constructs only)
33-34  _shapechange_ 3/day
35-36  _verdigris tsunami_
37-38  _enslave_
39-40  _eternal freedom_

Looking at it, I like it, but it might be a bit much.  So, howsabout I keep the Con penalty?  Drop the wings and the +2 Wis, add this stuff.  It seems like a lot, but the first 20 levels of spell-likes were only worth +1 LA themselves, so I dunno.

Thirdly, how do you feel about the Rogue variant that gives bonus fighter feats in place of SA dice (in _Unearthed Arcana_)?  I'd like to use that for my Assassin levels, if possible.  +4-5d6 SA just doesn't do much for me.

Fourth, there're some feats I'd like you to look at, all from Chainmail Bikini's _Beyond Monks_, some slightly modified.  I have my explanation/excuse/ wheedling in italics after each one:

*Silent Fighting [General]*
You have learned to fight quietly
*Prerequisites:* Move Silently 5 ranks, BAB +4
*Benefits:* As long as you wear light or no armor, and have no more than a light load, anyone using the Listen skill to hear your unarmed attacks has a +10 modifier to the DC.
Additionally, you have no penalty to your Move Silently skill when charging.
*Normal:* When you try to Move Silently while charging, you gain a –20 penalty.

*Leap of the Clouds [Epic]*
For some reason, gravity just doesn't seem as important anymore.
*Prerequisites:* Jump 21 ranks, Tumble 17 ranks, Balance 17 ranks
*Benefits:* When you attempt a high jump, the DC of the jump is equal to the height of the jump in feet.
You can make any type of jump without any running start with no penalty to the DC. If you make a 20ft. running start before making a long jump, the DC is halved.
When jumping down, you take falling damage as if you had fallen a number of feet equal to the actual distance fallen minus the value of a Jump skill check.
You gain a +5 bonus on all Jump checks.

_It's a slightly-harder-to-get, pumped-up version of Legendary Leaper.  Since that feat is stupid at a level where the change in my character's extra pair of pants can buy an item of flying, I made it quite a bit more powerful._

*Combat Mind [Fighter, General]*
You think before you fight.
*Prerequisites:* Int 13+
*Benefits:* Before rolling for initiative, you may choose to take a –6 penalty to the roll. If you do so, your attack rolls gain a +2 insight bonus or you gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC during the entire combat. You choose which bonus you receive before taking your first action.

_I usually like to wait until someone else goes before I commit in a fight; this is my excuse.  I've heard that initiative is ridiculously important at epic levels, due to the shorter fights, so I may be shooting myself in the foot here.  Regardless, this feat's been helpful up to 13th level, so I'd like to keep it for this iteration._

*Artful Dodge [Fighter, General]*
You predict where your opponent will strike next, and make sure you are not there.
*Prerequisites:* Dex 13+, Dodge
*Benefits:* You may apply your Intelligence bonus instead of your Dexterity bonus as a dodge bonus to AC. Conditions that cause you to lose your Dexterity bonus to AC cause you to lose this bonus instead.

_Weapon Finesse for smart people.  I'll still have a high Dex, of course, but this feat lets me have a higher Int without messing up my AC.  It's so hard to get a decent AC at this level...  Fair warning; if I don't take this feat, I'm going to seriously consider splashing the S&F duelist.  Does that make you mist up at all?

Heh, that might sound like a threat ("give me this feat, or else").  It wasn't meant that way, of course; think of it as more of a veiled request to use the Duelist from S&F instead, if Artful Dodge doesn't look good._


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## Ferrix (Oct 27, 2004)

Kelleris said:
			
		

> First off, poisons.  I'd really like to use them, but obviously there isn't a poison in the world (er, in the DMG) that will do anything at 30th level.  Ergo, I'd like to know if I can use the system in Blue Devil Games's Poison book.  Basically, I'll just a whip up a few poisons with suitably high save DCs using that system and then run them by you when I'm done.




Check the epic level handbook for poisons, there are some really nasty ones there.  (They even ignore standard poison immunity)



> *Silent Fighting [General]*
> You have learned to fight quietly
> *Prerequisites:* Move Silently 5 ranks, BAB +4
> *Benefits:* As long as you wear light or no armor, and have no more than a light load, anyone using the Listen skill to hear your unarmed attacks has a +10 modifier to the DC.
> ...



[/QUOTE]

I'll start top to bottom.

Silent Fighting, drop the negating the penalty to charging and moving silently or make it only applicable if you only move less than half your charge movement, and even then only reduce it by half.

Leap of the Clouds seems generally fine in my thoughts.

Combat Mind, haven't had much epic combat experience yet myself so... can't judge.

Artful dodge seems pretty really good, why wouldn't every mage ever thought of not take this feat.  Sure two feats, but dex is now pretty much a dump and that's usually a +10-12 at least at this level.


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## Kelleris (Oct 27, 2004)

Hmm, haven't got the ELH with me.  Still, I higthly doubt there's more than a handful of poisons in there, and I'd be surprised to see that they even have a high enough save DC for this level.  I recall seeing them and thinking they were pretty low, given the circumstances.

I wouldn't really bother with Silent Fighting without the charging, especially since I don't make unarmed attacks except as a last resort.

I can only vouch for Combat Mind at lower levels, unfortunately.  It does make you nearly always go last or next-to-last, though.   :\ 

Artful Dodge is quite an investment at low levels, since it requires a crappy feat and a decent score in the very thing it replaces.  However, my character will only have an Int modifier 3, maybe 4 points higher than his Dex modifier.  And Weapon Finesse has the same problems you find, and it isn't terribly unbalanced either.  If someone wants to take that for their wizard, they can clear that separately with Isida, of course - at epic levels, broken is very, very relative.  All it really does for me is to let me horde my skill points, as I am wont to do.  Also, a wizard with the feat would be down two feats (obviously), and at this level would probably _still_ have a crappy AC.  Honestly, I'm having a lot of trouble getting Arion's AC up, and he needs it.  My hps are going to be crap (base Con of 11, and I have no intention of buying a ridiculously-expensive +8 item).

EDIT: 278 hp average.  Since I need to be in melee to keep my damage output at a halfway decent level, you can see why I prioritized AC.  I need to have at least a chance that the evil twin of our elephantine dragon disciple won't instantly kill me with an Overwhelming Crit.


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## Wrahn (Oct 27, 2004)

I am not sure that continuing spell progression past 20th level is a good idea, certainly it should increase the ECL dramatically with a host of incredible powerful spells added.

3.5 talks about adding abilities to monsters:


			
				3.5 SRD said:
			
		

> ADDING SPECIAL ABILITIES
> You can add any sort of spell-like, supernatural, or extraordinary ability to a creature. As with a class level, you should determine how much, or how little, this ability adds to the creature’s existing repertoire. A suite of abilities that work together should be treated as a single modifier for this purpose. If the ability (or combination of abilities) significantly increases the monster’s combat effectiveness, increase its CR by 2. Minor abilities increase the creature’s CR by 1, and truly trivial abilities may not increase CR at all. If the special abilities a monster gains are not tied to a class or Hit Die increase, this CR increase stacks.
> 
> A significant special attack is one that stands a good chance of incapacitating or crippling a character in one round. A significant special quality is one that seriously diminishes the monster’s vulnerability to common attacks. Do not add this factor twice if a monster has both special attacks and special qualities.
> ...




When a Solar gains Hit Dice increases it does not gain more spells, a half celestial has no epic progression, I think carte blanche giving the half-fey epic progression is a mistake.

As far as the feats go, my opinion, for what they are worth:

Combat Mind would be more appropriate as an epic feat.  +2 to hit and +2 to AC is a lot.  Particularly with few requirements to get to.

Artful Dodge needs about two more feats to qualify for (say mobility and expertise)  it should represent a serious commitment to be able to ignore dex as a statistic.

Leap of the Clouds could be beefed up a little (adding 10 to jumping) and require legendary leaper.  Otherwise I am not a fan of just adding things that already exist in the game.  If you find legendary leaper too weak, I would petition Isida to replace it with your text.  (Because Ultimately I agree, flight is easy and more powerful)

Is there something specific you are looking to do with the silent attack?  Even if they can't see you or hear you, if you attack them they can counter attack with the standard 50% miss chance.  (Which they would get even if they heard you)

And just as a side note, my experience in epic play, going first does not change, there are advantages and disadvantages to it.  My general opinion unless you are trying to control the pace of the combat, don't worry about it.


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## Kelleris (Oct 27, 2004)

The half-fey template is mostly just me looking for something to fill out that +2 LA with the stuff I'm giving up.  I'd probably be willing to add another point of LA, and that would definitely pay for it, since it would cost me another level even with the LA buy-down.

Why does Combat Mind strike you as an epic feat?  It isn't worth anything like an epic slot, though it might be without the penalty to initiative.

Re Artful Dodge: Maybe, but I would like to point out that it hardly lets you ignore Dex as a statistic.  I'll still need it for Reflex saves and a large number of important skills.  In fact, it still leaves Dex more important than Strength is with Weapon Finesse.  With Artful Dodge, my Dex score is still only 6 points lower than my Int.  Weapon Finesse, on the other hand, will be giving me +6 to all melee attacks.

Leap of the Clouds was suggested mostly because Legendary Leaper is terrible; I'm just not going to take it, any more than I would take the epic feat that (bizarrely) doubles your low-light vision range.  I would like to take something appropriate to my character, though, rather than being forced to decide between weak feats and shameless power-gaming.

Silent Attack is flavorful.  That's the only reason I want it.  In any case, it doesn't make you harder to find in combat.  It would let me melee someone for a round without alerting those nearby, and it could cause some serious hit-and-run confusion given the right circumstances,  It's probably weak overall, though.  Just snazzy.


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## perivas (Oct 27, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> perivas,
> 
> Don't you need epic leadership to have a cohort that powerful?
> 
> ...




Thanks, man!  Great catch on the AC and Hit Points...although you don't get 5d8 from the ECL for the HP, so my total is just 365.  Yes, I do have Epic Leadership, which was costly.


----------



## Kelleris (Oct 27, 2004)

Whew, thought someone else was wondering by to snipe at my requests.    

If it's going to actively annoy other people in the party, I would advise just saying so.  That would probably carry more weight with both myself and Isida than balance quibbles, especially since I think these are all quite defensible.


----------



## Wrahn (Oct 27, 2004)

perivas said:
			
		

> Thanks, man!  Great catch on the AC and Hit Points...although you don't get 5d8 from the ECL for the HP, so my total is just 365.  Yes, I do have Epic Leadership, which was costly.




I am playing in another game with Isida, she, in that game, gives you a d8 hitpoints for every ECL.  I am assuming she give it here, but I suppose we should wait for official ruling.


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## Wrahn (Oct 27, 2004)

Kelleris said:
			
		

> Whew, thought someone else was wondering by to snipe at my requests.
> 
> If it's going to actively annoy other people in the party, I would advise just saying so.  That would probably carry more weight with both myself and Isida than balance quibbles, especially since I think these are all quite defensible.




I can guess what Isida is going to say about the feats and the poison, she would prefer if you stuck with the rules she has available to her.  I can't blame her, she is running about 50,000 games right now and she can't keep all the rules straight unless she sets her foot down on what she allows.

I have no idea what she is going to do with the spell progression, but I would guess getting it by her is going to fall under the more headache than it is worth catagory as well, though I could be wrong, she is fairly permissive in letting others get what they want as she let you mess with the template already.

I don't think it is fair for you to propose additions and changes to the rules and expect us not react to them.  But, heck I don't really care, I am looking at this from a technical point of view.


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## Ferrix (Oct 27, 2004)

I think the epic spell progression for the template is by itself too powerful.  Thus I'm against it.


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## Kelleris (Oct 27, 2004)

> I don't think it is fair for you to propose additions and changes to the rules and expect us not react to them.




Aside from terminology quibbles (fiddling with a template and asking someone to check out some feats isn't changing the rules, _per se_), I really don't.  I did post my thoughts on your comments, after all.  I just wanted to make sure there were no personal feelings involved.  "This particular thing is too powerful" is fine, I just wanted to make sure there weren't any "you are a total munchkin" or "your entire character is broken/silly/useless" vibes floating around.    

You may be right about the spell-likes.  As it stands, though, I'm hovering between +1 and +2 LA, and I'd like to get over to +2 if possible.  That said, I don't think that the 10 extra spell-likes are worth more than a point of LA at this level.  Adding another point would be too much, probably, and this seemed the natural way to even things out.  If you have any other suggestions, please mention them.  Constructive criticism is fine, but helping someone out is even better!   

EDIT: I should mention; I expected a bit more time to ask these questions before Isida whipped up a roster, so I'm having trouble figuring out how to make this thing work without the stuff I normally have access to.  Never hurts to ask, anyway!


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Oct 27, 2004)

Wrahn, I am indeed instituting the extra d8 hit points for each level of ECL.  No BAB, feats, saves, does not count as Hit Dice.



			
				Kelleris said:
			
		

> First off, poisons.  I'd really like to use them, but obviously there isn't a poison in the world (er, in the DMG) that will do anything at 30th level.  Ergo, I'd like to know if I can use the system in Blue Devil Games's Poison book.  Basically, I'll just a whip up a few poisons with suitably high save DCs using that system and then run them by you when I'm done.



  Since I don't have that book, no.  However, you may use Traps and Treachery's rules if you give me a full breakdown of your process.



> Second, I have a possible spell-like progression through 40th level for the modified half-fey template.  I used some epic spells, on the theory that you wouldn't mind just the spells as spell-likes, since there's no designing new ones and no rolling Spellcraft:
> 
> 21-22  _reverse gravity _ 3/day
> 23-24  _summon behemoth_
> ...



  Far too powerful.  Epic spells as spell-like abilities is a Very Bad Thing.  Stick with the normal fey template.  A Con penalty for epic spells is not a good trade-off.  You can find creative ways to use your regular spell-like abilities, since you do get a boatload.  LA races hurt at these high levels, so you either can just roll with it, or take a non-ECL race.  



> Thirdly, how do you feel about the Rogue variant that gives bonus fighter feats in place of SA dice (in _Unearthed Arcana_)?  I'd like to use that for my Assassin levels, if possible.  +4-5d6 SA just doesn't do much for me.



  I am fine with that varient.



> Fourth, there're some feats I'd like you to look at, all from Chainmail Bikini's _Beyond Monks_, some slightly modified.



  I am only using feats and material from my previously-listed sources.  So sorry.  Go ahead with your duelist, and have fun with her.

I'll have you know I once built a 15th level fighter with a 42 AC.  It was a legitimate build with a single prestige class (Bondblade) and magic items from the DMG.  It's not impossible to get good AC at any level.

edit - I didn't want to sound harsh, but as Wrahn said, I am running over a dozen games and in almost as many.  I only want to use material from books I have.  I don't want to have to keep track of 20 varients and rules outside of my own material.  We shall just boldly have to struggle on with the 74 books and magazines I already have on the list.


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## Kelleris (Oct 27, 2004)

> However, you may use Traps and Treachery's rules if you give me a full breakdown of your process.




Er, not so much, since I don't have that book.  What I had in mind wouldn't really require you to have the book anyway, just to decide if the gp cost and craft DC it comes up with is okay.  You can arbitrarily fiddle with either if you like.  Otherwise I guess I'll just have to forget about it, since the ELH web enhancement ones aren't really worth the effort.

It's not a Con penalty for the half-fey stuff.  It's a Con penalty, not getting a +2 Wis, and not getting good-rated flight at double my speed.  Like I said, that's too weak for +2 LA, but probably too much still for +1.  This seemed like the natural way to make up the difference, and the extras didn't seem like too much in the context of the other stuff.

Also, I was kinda expecting some haggling over the half-fey.  Start high, y'know.

I never said it was impossible to get a good AC, I said it was proving difficult, which it is.  Part of the problem is that the standard varies wildly depending on what I use to compare.  I'd need a 70-72 (with fighting defensively, haste, and expertise, not base) to even feel like standing near the elephant for a round, for instance, but that's unhittable by the druid and not even a passing fancy for the druid's cohort.

However, I _need_ to get into melee range to do anything useful.  My spells just aren't going to cut the mustard at this level, even if they cut the spell resistance, which I doubt very much.  My death attack DC also refuses to go above 35 or so, even with some other stuff that you won't let me use.  It would apparently take a lot more flexibility to make this work than is feasible, so I'm going to have to nix this character.  There's just no way I'll be able to contribute at a level I'm comfortable with.

I'll see if I can come up with something else, then.  Otherwise, you have a pile of alternates to pick from.      *ponders*

EDIT:  No problem.  In fairness, though, I either don't own or can't use most of those books (not getting a lot of mileage out of the MMIII, for one).  And I tend to prefer out-of-the-way concepts, so I need a pretty wide selection to cover everything.  Just the way it is, I guess.  And the ELH doesn't help either; it goes out of its way to discourage anything other than the usual base classes, with some rare exceptions.

EDIT EDIT: The duelist question was not another character concept.  It was an alternate way to get some more AC, via a cheesier and more powerful route than the feat I listed.


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## Ferrix (Oct 27, 2004)

I understand your frustration to an extent Kelleris, with my paladin/anti-paladin duo I'm having a hell of a time thinking of any PrC that fits my character concept.  One person suggested the cavalier, but I can only take so much mountedness before I get tired of it.  Plus it really pidgeon-holes a character only be effective when he has his mount.

I want the dark and tormented good guy and the bitter and tormented bad guy, the lone warrior type thing (the ghostwalker prestige class almost fit this)

Maybe the paladin/anti-paladin thing ain't working so well.

Isida, might I try an alternate spin on it, rather than Good vs. Evil to Law vs. Chaos (monk one side, barbarian the other).  Although that's asking a little more I think.

Maybe you'll end up with a psion afterall ;-)  Oh yeah, if I go psion, can I use the Constructor PrC off of the Minds Eye?  And if then, what about adding more levels of astral construct.  At 30th level those 9th level constructs seem pretty paltry.

Argh... scatter-brained ferrix.


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## Zack2216 (Oct 27, 2004)

I was wondering if the sadism and/or masichism (specifically sasdism) could be converted to or researched as psionic powers? They would be telepath powers, because that's what I assume is the most correct, flavor wise. However, i'm not sure about augmentation, if there would be any at all, aside from being able to increase the spell's duration. As for a suggested spell level, it fits well along the line of 2nd level psychic warrior powers, such as strength of my enemy. Also, it would probably be best that it be a 3rd level psion/wilder power (however, that choice is up to you). 

So, can I pretty-pretty-please have sadism?  

edit: I was wondering, should I post my character here in this thread, or hold on till the rogue thread is up?


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## Wrahn (Oct 27, 2004)

Couple of things Kelleris:

Comparing yourself to other characters, particularly at epic levels is usually an exercise in futility.  Characters become so specialized at epic levels that they are going to have characteristics that far outweigh one side or the other.

I think the better thing to do is look at the Epic Level Handbook and look at CR 30  (Atropol +49 touch attack, Loci Genius +64 bash and Elder Titan +87 warhammer).

If you are really worried about devasting critical, there are ways of protecting yourself that don't include trying to do things against character conception.  The easiest, obviously is to be immune to criticals.

Finally as far as the terminology goes, they are called character creation _rules_ for a reason.


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Oct 27, 2004)

Kelleris said:
			
		

> Er, not so much, since I don't have that book.  What I had in mind wouldn't really require you to have the book anyway, just to decide if the gp cost and craft DC it comes up with is okay.  You can arbitrarily fiddle with either if you like.  Otherwise I guess I'll just have to forget about it, since the ELH web enhancement ones aren't really worth the effort.



  Tell me what kind of DC and effects you were looking for, and I shall calculate the creation DC and gp cost.



> It's not a Con penalty for the half-fey stuff.  It's a Con penalty, not getting a +2 Wis, and not getting good-rated flight at double my speed.  Like I said, that's too weak for +2 LA, but probably too much still for +1.  This seemed like the natural way to make up the difference, and the extras didn't seem like too much in the context of the other stuff.
> 
> Also, I was kinda expecting some haggling over the half-fey.  Start high, y'know.



  Still, getting epic spells for those three things is a unbalanced exchange.  Is there something else you want instead, aside from increasing your spell-like abilities?



> I never said it was impossible to get a good AC, I said it was proving difficult, which it is.  Part of the problem is that the standard varies wildly depending on what I use to compare.  I'd need a 70-72 (with fighting defensively, haste, and expertise, not base) to even feel like standing near the elephant for a round, for instance, but that's unhittable by the druid and not even a passing fancy for the druid's cohort.



  Don't worry about the other characters.  Worry about the monsters you're going to face.



> However, I _need_ to get into melee range to do anything useful.  My spells just aren't going to cut the mustard at this level, even if they cut the spell resistance, which I doubt very much.  My death attack DC also refuses to go above 35 or so, even with some other stuff that you won't let me use.  It would apparently take a lot more flexibility to make this work than is feasible, so I'm going to have to nix this character.  There's just no way I'll be able to contribute at a level I'm comfortable with.



  So, concentrate on spells that enhance yourself, rather than affecting others.  I think you'll still get milage out of them.



> I'll see if I can come up with something else, then.  Otherwise, you have a pile of alternates to pick from.      *ponders*
> 
> EDIT:  No problem.  In fairness, though, I either don't own or can't use most of those books (not getting a lot of mileage out of the MMIII, for one).  And I tend to prefer out-of-the-way concepts, so I need a pretty wide selection to cover everything.  Just the way it is, I guess.  And the ELH doesn't help either; it goes out of its way to discourage anything other than the usual base classes, with some rare exceptions.
> 
> EDIT EDIT: The duelist question was not another character concept.  It was an alternate way to get some more AC, via a cheesier and more powerful route than the feat I listed.



  Well, I hope you can make this character work, or find one more to your liking.  Unfortunetly, with the number of games I'm running and the number of possible combinations with various books, I'm coming down hard with the Iron DM Hammer of NO! in order to save my sanity.  

ELH rewards those characters who didn't multiclass with the extra epic feats.  However, those that do multiclass still get epic feats for their regular feats at epic levels, epic treasure, epic skills, and epic amounts of treasure.  I think it's possible to make a viable multi-class epic character.  *shrug*.

As for the duelist, I'd rather you take a PrC because it fits your character concept, not because you need a way to get more AC.  I made prestige classes in my spare time, so perhaps I can assist you in that respect.



			
				Ferrix said:
			
		

> I understand your frustration to an extent Kelleris, with my paladin/anti-paladin duo I'm having a hell of a time thinking of any PrC that fits my character concept. One person suggested the cavalier, but I can only take so much mountedness before I get tired of it. Plus it really pidgeon-holes a character only be effective when he has his mount.
> 
> I want the dark and tormented good guy and the bitter and tormented bad guy, the lone warrior type thing (the ghostwalker prestige class almost fit this)
> 
> Maybe the paladin/anti-paladin thing ain't working so well.



  What?  Paladin on one side, Fighter/Blackguard on the other.  That works, doesn't it?  Anyways, what exactly were you looking for in a prestige class?



> Isida, might I try an alternate spin on it, rather than Good vs. Evil to Law vs. Chaos (monk one side, barbarian the other). Although that's asking a little more I think.



  That could be messy.  I'm not exactly sure how to pull that off.



> Maybe you'll end up with a psion afterall ;-) Oh yeah, if I go psion, can I use the Constructor PrC off of the Minds Eye? And if then, what about adding more levels of astral construct. At 30th level those 9th level constructs seem pretty paltry.
> 
> Argh... scatter-brained ferrix.



  Add to the prereqs, must be able to manifest 3rd level powers.  Also, explain to me your higher levels of astral construct.  Are you thinking of adding some more buffness to prexisting astral constructs?



			
				Zack2216 said:
			
		

> I was wondering if the sadism and/or masichism (specifically sasdism) could be converted to or researched as psionic powers? They would be telepath powers, because that's what I assume is the most correct, flavor wise. However, i'm not sure about augmentation, if there would be any at all, aside from being able to increase the spell's duration. As for a suggested spell level, it fits well along the line of 2nd level psychic warrior powers, such as strength of my enemy. Also, it would probably be best that it be a 3rd level psion/wilder power (however, that choice is up to you).
> 
> So, can I pretty-pretty-please have sadism?
> 
> edit: I was wondering, should I post my character here in this thread, or hold on till the rogue thread is up?



  Sadism will be a 2nd level psion/wilder power of the psychometabolism school.  Characters for alternates will be posted in an Alternates Rouges' Gallery, once I put it up.


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## Serpenteye (Oct 27, 2004)

Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> Serpenteye - one must have 20 levels of sorcerer to take epic sorcerer levels.  That's the trade off for prestige class abilities at lower levels.  So you could take epic levels of archmage if you max that out, but no levels of epic sorcerer until you are a 20th level sorcerer.  Not with 20 level of spellcasting, but with 20 levels of the spellcasting class.  The bonus epic feats are the reward for sticking with straight sorcerer for 20 levels.




That's ok, I'll work around it. There are other ways to make you cry, perfectly legal ways...  ().


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## Kangaxx (Oct 27, 2004)

Wow, this place has been busy.  

Ferrix, thanks for taking the time to write up a detailed explanation for the sneak attack rules.  I'm glad to have that resolved, as least for this campaign.   

Kelleris, the only way you can expect to be able to stand up to the guy with 60 str is by having 60 dex.  He would kill himself in 2 rounds of full attacking.     I actually considered making a character that was specialized in being able to stand up to an assault like that, (primarily a monk) but decided he would be boring.  

Wrahn, you've inspired me with your individual item backgrounds.  That's a great way to flesh out a character, so I'm going to follow suit.  

Today is looking pretty busy, so I probably won't have enough time to finish Pilmer.  But you can expect him to be posted sometime tomorrow.


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## Wrahn (Oct 27, 2004)

I can't take credit for the item history.  Isida in her other game suggested it and I also found that it was a good way to flesh out a character.  Both in the big ways and the little ones.


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## Kelleris (Oct 27, 2004)

Okay.  I think I can manage this, I just need to rejigger the character quite a bit.  Death attack just became a purely flavor ability (!) and direct damage dealing is right out.  Just have to try something different, I suppose, since the original concept can't survive unchanged.

Two epic feats to ask about, pretty simple ones so you don't have anything to keep track of, Isida.  One is a flat bonus, and the other adds one thing to my (already-long) list of buffs:

*Weaver of Symphonies [Epic]*
*Prerequisite: *Perform 25 ranks, bardic music class feature. 

*Benefit:* The character can maintain any two of his or her bardic music abilities simultaneously.  They still require the normal amount of time to use, however.  It requires a Concentration check (DC 10 + required Perform ranks) to begin the second ability without losing the first.

*Special:*  You may take this feat twice.  If you do, you gain the ability to maintain three bardic music abilities simultaneously.  The Concentration check to start the third ability is DC 15 + required Perform ranks.

_It's like the primary bardic instruments in Song and Silence, but as an innate ability.  Don't make me lug around an animated pipe organ!    _

*Unwhispered Secrets [Epic]*
Even things that _nobody_ consciously knows tend to find their way into your mind.  Through long training, your mind can corroborate and extrapolate already-known facts to an astounding degree.

Prerequisite: 20 levels in a class that grants the bardic knowledge or lore ability

Benefit: You gain a +10 bonus on all bardic knowledge or lore checks.

_Unwhispered Secrets : Epic Skill Focus :: Obscure Lore : (3.5) Skill Focus_

ASIDE: Actually, Wrahn, I disagree.  For one, I couldn't care less about the monsters; I want to be balanced with the other party members.  Any DM worth their salt can deal with a party that, as a whole, is weak or strong for their level, but the tricky part is making sure that all the _characters_ are balanced amongst each other.  As a Dm who has long struggled with this issue while blithely ad-hocing every XP award I've handed out for years, I can speak from experience as to which is more tricky and more important.

Since I was attempting to make a character split between melee stuff and skills, with more emphasis on the melee stuff since skills are so easy to come by, I would expect to have maybe a 15-25% chance of beating an equal-level character completely tricked-out for melee.  As it stands, though, the chances are more like one in a thousand.  Maybe.

Aside from that, how am I supposed to use that range of numbers anyway?  49, 64, and 87 is such a broad range as to be meaningless for purposes of comparison.


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## TheOneAboveAll (Oct 27, 2004)

Hey,

I had some computer issues but now they are fixed.  I noticed I was on the list, is that still so?


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## TheOneAboveAll (Oct 27, 2004)

For some reason I cannot get the roller to work, I keep getting some kind of microsoft error, could someone help me with that.

Also if there stillis a spot for me I would play a half celestial holy warrior of Pelor[or the resident sun god]


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## Kelleris (Oct 27, 2004)

Most likely you just need to put in a note.  They lie when they say it's optional.  They lie!


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Oct 27, 2004)

Yes, fill out all the fields, and it will work.  And you certainly are in TheOneAboveAll, and a half-celestial would be fine.  

Kelleris, I approve of both of those feats.


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## TheOneAboveAll (Oct 27, 2004)

Thanks and thanks


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## Wrahn (Oct 27, 2004)

Kelleris-

Darned internet ate my reply.

It was long and indepth and brilliant, but I will condense it down to a particular thought:

How do you balance the ability to kill people with a sword with the ability to be socially charming?  Depending on the situation either has the ability to be dramatically more powerful than the other.

You can't say because character A can beat character B in a straight up fight character A is more powerful, because not all things are factored in.  Weighing how much being charming is "worth" as compared to wacking someone in the head with a sword is completely subjective depending on the situation, the game, the GM and the player.  So achieving balance is at best fleeting and at worst an illusion.

Edit:

Oh and about the broad range, my point was those were all universally higher than mine (with the +49 being a touch attack).  So make your Armor Class as high as you can within your character conception if you intend to make not being hit your primary defense.  Displacement will help.  Be careful though, I think you will need to worry about spells more (and don't make the mistake of believing a paltry 40 SR is going to stop anything from a dedicated 30th level mage)


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## TheOneAboveAll (Oct 27, 2004)

Also should I assume if the book was not mentioned [mini's, draconomnicon and other WOTC products] or arms and armor from bastion press, they are disallowed?  I will have something preliminary later tonight and something more fleshed out by the end of the week.

Oh and thanks for running the game.

Oh and I am terrible with math and numbers crunching.  At level 30 waht are the buoffs for 4 and for 6?  I got a couple of ideas.


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Oct 27, 2004)

If the book isn't listed, then you can't use it I'm afraid.  

What exactly are you speaking of for level 30?  Buoffs?  This is a word I do not know.


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## Wrahn (Oct 27, 2004)

Buffs?

Buy Offs?

Neither of those make sense in the context of the sentence...


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## Wrahn (Oct 27, 2004)

By the way Kelleris, do you play Everquest?

I find it amusing that you have just incorporated Bardic twisting into the game.

(Wrahn is actually the name of my Everquest character, a now 66th level Bard)


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## TheOneAboveAll (Oct 27, 2004)

I am sorry, 

A 30th level character when using the reducing level adjustment rules in UAwhat would be the exp. point cost and final levels if one bought off either 4 or 6 levels?


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## Wrahn (Oct 27, 2004)

That would explain why I didn't understand what you were saying, I have no clue what you are talking about.  

I don't own UA so sorry can't help you with the math, but am I understanding correctly that there is a varient rule that would allow you to spend experience points to buy off Level Adjustment?


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## TheOneAboveAll (Oct 27, 2004)

Yes, there is.


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## Ferrix (Oct 27, 2004)

Whenever you advance a number of class levels equal to 3 times your current LA, you are eligible to reduce your LA by 1.  It costs (current ECL-1)x1000 xp.  Your LA is then reduced by 1.  If it isn't reduced to 0, when you again advance a number of class levels equal to 3 times your current LA, you are again eligble (same cost).

Examples:

Drow LA +2
Eligible for reduction at class level 6 and 9.
At level 6 it costs 7000xp ((6 class level +2 LA -1)x1000xp)
At level 9 it costs 9000xp ((9 class levels +1 LA -1)x1000xp)

Half-Celestial LA +4
Eligible for reducation at class level 12, 21, 27 and 30.
At level 12 it costs 15000xp ((12 CL + 4 LA -1)x1000xp)
at level 21 it costs 23000xp ((21 CL + 3 LA - 1)x1000xp)
at level 27 it costs 28000xp ((27 CL + 2 LA - 1)x1000xp)
at level 30 it costs 30000xp ((30 CL + 1 LA - 1)x1000xp)

At our current level, you will only be able to have reduced your LA to +1, you need to get to ECL 31 (30 class levels plus the +1 LA) to reduce it that one last time.


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## TheOneAboveAll (Oct 27, 2004)

Thanks,  

So in other words I get four levels back?


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## Ferrix (Oct 27, 2004)

With OneAboveAll wanting to play a half-celestial holy warrior of pelor, I guess I'll go with my Constructor/Psion type.

Want to help me figure out an epic progression for it Isida?

Your added requirement is fine, wouldn't change anything for me anyways ;-)

By higher level astral constructs, I meant adding level 10, 11, 12 constructs.  Because the HPs, BAB, etc. of a 9th level astral construct at 30th level really is gonna get wiped out by anything that's an epic creature.  Perhaps require a feat: Epic Constructor or something like that.  I'll work it out later tonight in more detail for your perusal.


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## Ferrix (Oct 27, 2004)

TheOneAboveAll said:
			
		

> Thanks,
> 
> So in other words I get four levels back?




Sort of...

It means that you spend something like 15k+23k+28k= 66k to reduce your level adjustment.  That XP is gone.  And you are then at the appropriate level for the remaining amount of XP you have.  I don't know exactly where that puts you level wise though (level 27 or 28 i think).


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## Wrahn (Oct 27, 2004)

Well if we are doing that, I am going to do it as well.  Criminy, it would reduce my Experience by 16,000 I would not go down a level and I would get 2 more class levels.

OneAboveAll-

If I understand correctly you would be at 347,000 experience, which is 4,000 experience from 27th level I think.  In essence you wouldn't gain much.  (Quicker level progression) and you would lose out on bonus hit dice from Isida's LA.

Edit:

Oops, I did misunderstand, you, sadly would be 27th level and 1,000 XP from 28 with one LA. (So you again be in the same boat 26 levels to play with)

Isida-

What do you think about this, I know you said you would consider rules out of the UA.  I (for obvious reasons) would be happy to jump on this band wagon.


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## Kelleris (Oct 27, 2004)

@ Wrahn - Nope.  Can't stand Everquest, actually, believe it or not.  I cribbed that from _Song and Silence_, as mentioned,  I would be quite unsurprised if the authors of that book got it from EQ, though.


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## TheOneAboveAll (Oct 27, 2004)

Ok, unless someone can advise me other wise I will be going with a sainted human half celestial, Paladin 5, cleric 1 Fist of Raziel 8, Warpriest 4 and contemplative 6.  At the earliest opportunity he will finish the Fist of Raziel. (usually I would take either the of the sun god prestige classes but they are not allowed) 

He is a warrior in the name of the sun god[Pelor?] who has dedicated his life to fighting both the undead and evil outsiders.  He began this life because on his wedding day a horde od fiends, necromancers and undead attacked his home killing or taking nearly everyone there.  He tells that he is doing this so that no one else will suffer the torment he feels in his heart, but in truth he seeks vengence.  He walks a thin line but he never falters and it is faith that carries him.

His name is Gregori Vanderhaus, but he is known as Demonbane.  

His stats are at the above site under Gregori 10, 10, 12, 12, 13, 16.

Well that's it for now.


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## TheOneAboveAll (Oct 27, 2004)

Oh, 

One more thing I do understand the rules for item creation in general.  But what about in regards to armor and weapons?  I mean let's say I have a sunblade and want to increase it's enhancement by 4 but also add a +x ability?  How should I generate the cost?


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Oct 27, 2004)

Deconstruct the blade.  See what it would cost to make a +2 bastard sword (the base cost for the sun blade).  Subtract that from the total sun blade cost.  What's left over is what it costs to add all those other abilities (sunlight and whatnot).  Begin adding additional enhancements from the +2 bastard sword, and when you're done, add the remainder of the money for the additional abilities.


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## Wrahn (Oct 27, 2004)

TheOneAboveAll said:
			
		

> Oh,
> 
> One more thing I do understand the rules for item creation in general.  But what about in regards to armor and weapons?  I mean let's say I have a sunblade and want to increase it's enhancement by 4 but also add a +x ability?  How should I generate the cost?




As far as I can tell the Sun Blade is a +2 Bastard Sword with the +3 Sun Blade Power (+2 additional enhancement versus evil (though it may be double, that is Isida's call), Short Sword/Bastard sword going for it, the sunlight power, double damage versus Negetive energy and undead creatures)

Increasing the Sun Blade to +6 is, well quite frankly, painful because of the way the epic rules work.  Any weapon that whose enhancement bonus goes over +5 gets it's cost multiplied by 10.

Thus a +6 Sun Blade would cost 1,620,000.  While only making it +5 would only cost 128,000.  (Probably, I am not sure that the Sun Blade's ability to increase the Enhancement bonus would make it epic or not.  I would be inclined to say no, but make it not an epic weapon either for penetrating dmage reduction, despite it's bonus past +5)


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## Wrahn (Oct 27, 2004)

OR

You could do it Isida's way and ignore me 

Isida, what say you about the UA buying back of the LA?


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## TheOneAboveAll (Oct 27, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> As far as I can tell the Sun Blade is a +2 Bastard Sword with the +3 Sun Blade Power (+2 additional enhancement versus evil (though it may be double, that is Isida's call), Short Sword/Bastard sword going for it, the sunlight power, double damage versus Negetive energy and undead creatures)
> 
> Increasing the Sun Blade to +6 is, well quite frankly, painful because of the way the epic rules work.  Any weapon that whose enhancement bonus goes over +5 gets it's cost multiplied by 10.
> 
> Thus a +6 Sun Blade would cost 1,620,000.  While only making it +5 would only cost 128,000.  (Probably, I am not sure that the Sun Blade's ability to increase the Enhancement bonus would make it epic or not.  I would be inclined to say no, but make it not an epic weapon either for penetrating dmage reduction, despite it's bonus past +5)






I am not sure I completely understand.  Sunblade at +2 [+3?]  Add +3 to keep it under epic, but if you anything else it goes to epic.  Meanwhile if you make a straight +20 weapon it is just the straight listed cost.  Now, what if the weapon was intelligent?  What happens then.

I for one feel that the rules for weaponds and armor should be different for those of other magic items.  In this regard.


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Oct 28, 2004)

If you want an intelligent magic item, for real, there are some fantastic rules for them in the Book of Eldritch Might III.  Tell me the type of weapon you want, and I'll make it up for you.  It will cost you some XP as well as gold, but I think I can come up with something pretty cool.


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Oct 28, 2004)

Ok, I now have up both Rogues' Galleries.  Please adhere to the format quite strictly.

Rogues' Gallery 

Alternates Rogues' Gallery


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## Kelleris (Oct 28, 2004)

Is that intended just as an example, or is Fairweather an NPC who will be with us?


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## perivas (Oct 28, 2004)

Wrahn, I just touched up my character a little bit and subbed in a level of alienist for druid and noted in the rules that monsters (including I assume a dryad) use ECL for epic level purposes.  Since you seem to be so familiar with the nuances of the rules, is there anything obvious that I should think about in improving my character?  It seems that everyone else is min-maxing quite a bit and I don't want to be left too far behind.  Thanks!


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## TheOneAboveAll (Oct 28, 2004)

Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> If you want an intelligent magic item, for real, there are some fantastic rules for them in the Book of Eldritch Might III.  Tell me the type of weapon you want, and I'll make it up for you.  It will cost you some XP as well as gold, but I think I can come up with something pretty cool.





Well what I am looking for is a some combination of the sunblade and the holy avenger.  A weapon used by paladins/holy warriors of the sun god.  I like the holy power ability but if it is too much no big to do with out it.  Can you put together something like that?  Any thing else you need to know?


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## TheOneAboveAll (Oct 28, 2004)

Can we use stuff from the Wizards official site?


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Oct 28, 2004)

Depends, give me a link, I'll look and tell you.

I shall get right to work on your sun blade/holy avenger.  I may not be able to duplicate those exact powers, but I shall try as hard as I can.


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## Kelleris (Oct 28, 2004)

Bard-only spell, all the way at the bottom? 

Also, how much would it cost me to have my (already intelligent) weapon cast _haste_ and _alter self_ on me when I draw it?  Also, can we mix and match the specials from your source and the usual one?  I'd like to get the 200,000 gp special purpose ability of _true resurrection_ once per month.

Hmmm...  Come to think of it, would I be able to get a reversed ability to do likewise, for the same cost (400,000 for both    )  That is, the ability to recreate my weapon once per month, as good as new, as long as I remain attuned to it via Item Familiar?

On that same subject, what should I do about the Invest Life Force ability?  It grants bonus XP in exchange for what you give up, but I suppose that should only count for XP I gain in game.


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## Wrahn (Oct 28, 2004)

Isida,

Did you notice my question about the Unearthed Arcana Variant Rules about buying back Level Adjustment with experience?  Not trying to press here, just making sure you saw it.



perivas,

I am flattered by the request.  Let me look over your character a little and see what I can figure out.

One thing about the Alienist, they specifically mention Summon Monster with the Alienist ability, I would make sure with Isida it works with Summon Natures Ally as well.  (I think it is a letter rather than the spirit but you should check to be sure)

What are you looking at doing with the character, are you happy with what you can do and are looking for a general increase in power or are you looking for a more focused character?


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## Kelleris (Oct 28, 2004)

Oh, Wrahn, I think you misunderstood something, or I got confused.  You have a +2 LA, just as I do, so you should be in the same situation as me - 29th level with 8,000 XP left to go for the next one.  That means you lose the LA stuff and gain one level of something back.  I think you were under the impression you would get two levels.

I'll help too if you like, perivas.  However, too many people might not be very helpful, and I have no experience making divine spellcasters.  I never play god-lackeys if I can get away with it...   

That reminds me.  Isida, what do you recommend for the people playing divine characters?  It sounded from your first post that the gods are on all of our naughty lists in this game.  Wrong impression?


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## TheOneAboveAll (Oct 28, 2004)

Were there any thoughts or suggestions on my build?  Or should I go ahead with it?  Also I konw there is no epic spellcasting ar the rules for +9th level spells the same?


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Oct 28, 2004)

Wrahn, UA experience LA buy-off is a go.  

Kelleris, that bard spell looks cool, go for it.  Also, no mix and matching.  Either use the item creation rules for intelligent items from the DMG and figure the cost that way, or use them from BoEM III and calculate it that way.  Free resurrection of self and weapon makes weep, so nix to that.

For the Invest Life Force... I'd rather not do that.


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## Kelleris (Oct 28, 2004)

Can I see what the BoEM III system comes up with before I commit to anything?  Also, I would rather like to be able to recover the weapon somehow if it gets broken, since I have 231 skill points invested in it.  Maybe just recovering the weapon 1/month for 200,000?

The _true res_ I mentioned is the one from the special purpose list; I'd also be using a special ability pick to get it, as well as the gold.  If that's a no-go, how much would it cost to have a 17th-level or better cleric use divinations to check up on me periodically and cast _true resurrection_ if I come up as dead for, oh, say a month?  Surely a large enough donation to a trustworthy (very lawful and very good) church would be feasible?


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## perivas (Oct 28, 2004)

Thank you both, Wrahn and Kelleris.

Wrahn, I never noticed that about the Alienist before.  Isida, is it possible for the alienist power to apply to summon nature's ally as well as summon monster spells?  After all, the pre-requisites for the Alienist certainly do not preclude druids from naturally (or rather pseudonaturally) qualifying.  Please let me know.

An alienist druid...hmm.  Caira the Twisted, Keeper of the Weeping Woods, Grand Druid of the Shadowoak Circle.

Anyways, I'm not sure.  But I am just trying to make sure that I'm not creating a character who would be worthless in a 30th CR environment.  In case you can't tell, I am planning to rely heavily on the improved elemental wild shape ability for combat situations...a primal elemental (colossal size) can be pretty powerful.  Also, an elemental weird can use powerful divination spells at will as a free action!  These aspects make Caira extremely powerful.  But as a spellcaster, she seems weak to me.  I had thought that she needed a specialization or something...but then again, I did not realize the extent of her power until I started talking about it right now.  So, maybe I'm just looking for a good supplemental idea.  After all, the last 3 levels of druid seem like a waste.

My current thoughts include either becoming a Lion of Talisid or grabbing a couple more levels of alienist.  I had thought that the game might not be too combat oriented.  So, I thought that Caira would do fine as much more a diviner, healer or sage than an active crusader.  So, maybe that's how I would like to change her.


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## Kelleris (Oct 28, 2004)

Perivas, do you want more diviner/sage/etc. or more combat?  I'm not entirely clear.

Also, could you link to your character and cohort?  I don't really want to comb the 8-page thread trying to find them.  

And, just offhand, I may be wrong but I think the wild shape ability tops out at 15 HD: "This ability functions like the polymorph spell, except as noted here."  It doesn't mention anything about changed HD limits one way or the other.  Maybe you have some kind of epic feat?  I dunno...

Also, I read the elemental wild shape to mean only the actual elementals, and not just any creature with the elemental type.  Again, you may be packin' a feat I'm not aware of.


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## Ferrix (Oct 28, 2004)

Just a quick question... what do you all think of a psion compared to a wizard?  I'm trying to figure out whether the psion really holds up well at the epic levels compared to a wizard.


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## Kangaxx (Oct 28, 2004)

Ferrix said:
			
		

> Just a quick question... what do you all think of a psion compared to a wizard?  I'm trying to figure out whether the psion really holds up well at the epic levels compared to a wizard.




That's something I've pondered as well.  I think their only significant problem is the use of psionic focus for metapsionic feats, which are increasingly important at higher levels.  That could easiliy be fixed by an epic feat that let's you acquire psionic focus as a free action once per round, or something similar.

On a completely unrelated note, it occured to me that writing backgrounds for Pilmer's items would largely consist of detailing his assault on the temples of his homeworld, which would be tough when I don't know any details about the pantheon we'll be dealing with.  So it will get added to list of ideas for next time.


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## Kangaxx (Oct 28, 2004)

I've been doing some number crunching, and those 3 feats for archmage are looking really rough.  I'm not sure I want to yet, but would it be ok if I decided to get loremaster levels instead?


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Oct 28, 2004)

Loremaster is fine.

Ferris - the idea of having and epic feat that lets you focus as a free action 1/round is cool.  Prerequs - Psionic Medidation, Narrow Mind, Concentration 25 ranks.


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## Wrahn (Oct 28, 2004)

Kelleris said:
			
		

> Oh, Wrahn, I think you misunderstood something, or I got confused.  You have a +2 LA, just as I do, so you should be in the same situation as me - 29th level with 8,000 XP left to go for the next one.  That means you lose the LA stuff and gain one level of something back.  I think you were under the impression you would get two levels.




Nah, I understood, I just can't add.  I thought 30 was 425,000 not 435,000.  Ah well, it is one LA adjustment.


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## Wrahn (Oct 28, 2004)

Kelleris-

Wild Shape is limited to the druids hit dice and does not cap at 15.  It is clearer in the write up in Masters of the Wild. (though it does mention it in the SRD text)

perivas-

Another thing to note is that your character loses all supernatural and spell like abilities when shapeshifted.  This is a good and bad thing because your tree dependence is a supernatural ability.

If you are looking to be primarily a caster, there are a few things you should look into purchasing:

An amulet from the Book of Eldritch Might that increases all your spell DCs by 2 for 50k

A pale green Ioun Stone increases your caster level by 1 for 30,000gp.  Deconstructing the item it appears increasing your caster level costs (increase level)squared x 15,000gp.  It is probably worth your time to get a +3 caster level item to compensate for your LA. for 135,000gp

By the same note it is probably a good idea to get a strand of prayer bead for the bead of Karma for those annoyingly high SRs.

Another point is that Shapechange, in your particular situation, is probably more powerful than Wildshape.  Unless you intend Wildshape to be a very significant part of your character, I would not spend my epic feats on increasing that ability.


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## Kangaxx (Oct 28, 2004)

+2 spell DCs for a 50k amulet?  Yoink.  I wish I had more of the books we're using.


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## Kelleris (Oct 28, 2004)

> +2 spell DCs for a 50k amulet? Yoink. I wish I had more of the books we're using.




_That_ is crazy-powerful.  Bleh.  I still won't take it, though, since nobody's failing saves against my spells anyway.



> Wild Shape is limited to the druids hit dice and does not cap at 15. It is clearer in the write up in Masters of the Wild. (though it does mention it in the SRD text)




Well, there ya go.  Told you I didn't know much about divine characters.  Haven't even had a druid _player_ in a year or two.    

Might want to just go with Wrahn's suggestions, perivas.  I'll take a look if you like, but I clearly don't know what I'm talking about.


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## Kangaxx (Oct 28, 2004)

Actually, looking back at the 1st page, the book of eldritch might isn't on the list.  Oh well.


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## Wrahn (Oct 28, 2004)

Isida said:
			
		

> Feats, prestige classes, equipment, spells, and whatnot can be drawn from core books, Book of Vile Darkness/Exalted Deeds, *BoEM I, II, and III*, BoHM I and II, Savage Species, Manual of the Planes, Planar Handbook, Expanded Psionic Handbook, Hyperconsciousness, all splatbooks, Arms and Equipment Guide, as well as from Dragon magazine #277-#321. My own prestige classes will also be allowed (link in the sig).




Book of Eldritch Might is abreviated BoEM...


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## perivas (Oct 28, 2004)

Ooo...I did not realize the limit on my own hit dice for the wildshape ability.  That makes me extremely limited, since the primal forms and the weirds (although I don't quite recall their HD level) are out.  I have to seriously reconsider it.  Thank you, Wrahn and Kelleris, for pointing these things out.

As for the bead of karma and BOEM, those are both good ideas.  With the wildshape limits, I may need a substantial rework of the character.


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## Wrahn (Oct 28, 2004)

This represents a pretty serious divergence from what you originally posted, mostly with the feats.

*****************************************************
*It assumes that you can delay taking feats until you qualify for them.*
*****************************************************

Isida may want to make some sort of ruling on that.

Anyway this is a much more powerful casting druid.  All spells are automatically quickened so you can cast 2 a round.  I will post the character as a Pit Fiend (with shapechange) later.  I also used the UA variant rule to buy off one of your LA for 7k Experience.


STATS:
Race (ECL) : Dryad (+6)
Class (Level) : ECL 1/Fey 4/Druid 20/Loremaster 2/Hierophant 3
.... Net Level : 30
Alignment : Neutral Good
Deity : God of Nature
Gender : Female
Size : Medium
Speed : 30 ft
Type : Fey
Experience : 436,000

LEVEL BREAKDOWN:
1-4: Fey
5-24: Druid
25-26: Loremaster 
27-29: Hierophant

ABILITY SCORES
STR 20 (+5) (base 14, +6 enhancement)
DEX 24 (+7) (base 13, +8 dryad, +3 enhancement)
CON 24 (+7) (base 14, +6 enhancement, +4 inherent)
INT 18 (+4) (base 14, +4 dryad)
WIS 42 (+16) (base 14, +4 dryad, +7 level, +12 enhancement, +5 inherent)
CHA 25 (+7) (base 14, +8 dryad, +3 inherent)

SAVES
+28 Fort (+1 dryad, +10 druid, +4 epic, +7 CON, +5 resistance, +1 luck)
+26 Refl (+4 dryad, +5 druid, +4 epic, +7 DEX, +5 resistance, +1 luck)
+40 Will (+4 dryad, +10 druid, +4 epic, +16 WIS, +5 
resistance, +1 luck)

BASIC STATS
HP 375 (ECL 1d8 + dryad 4d6 + druid 20d8 + Hierophant 3d6 + Loremaster 2d4 + 210)
AC 44 (+7 DEX, +14 armor, +8 natural armor, +5 deflection)
Touch 22
Flat 37
Initiative +7 (+7 DEX)

MISCELLANEOUS EFFECTS
Damage resistance 15/Adamantine
Spell resistance 32
Immune to criticals
Sequester (without coma)
Blindsight 120 ft.
+1 caster level

BAB +15/10/5
Melee +24/19/14 (+14/10/5 base, +5 epic, +5 STR)
Missile +24/19/14 (+15/10/5 base, +5 epic, +7 DEX)
Grapple +22/17/12 (+15/10/5 base, +5 epic, +5 STR)

SKILLS (70 dryad; 160 druid; 18 Hierophant,16 Loremaster)
Concentration +32
Diplomacy +29
Escape Artist +7
Handle Animal +8
Heal +10
Hide +7
Knowledge (Nature) +10
Knowledge (Religion) +15
Listen +27
Move Silently +7 
Spellcraft +30
Spot +27
Survival +7
Use Magical Device +11
Use Rope(1)(2) +7 (+2 with bindings)

FEATS
1: Extended Spell
3: Spell Penetration
6: Quicken Spell
9: Greater Spell Penetration
12: Leadership
15: Blindsight
18: Persistent Spell
21: Epic Leadership
22: Bonus Loremaster Feat: Automatically Quickened Spell (0-3)
24: Automatically Quickened Spell (4-6)
27: Automatically Quickened Spell (7-9)


CLASS ABILITIES
Druid:
Animal companion (+14 HD; +14 NA; +7 Str; 8 tricks; link; share spells; 
devotion; multiattack; improved evasion)
Nature sense
Wild empathy
Woodland stride
Trackless step
Resist nature’s lure
Venom immunity
A thousand faces
Timeless body
Wild shape (tiny or huge animal/plant 6/day, huge elemental 3/day)
Spellcasting (druidic 28th; spontaneous: summon nature’s ally)
Languages: Druidic
Weapon Proficiencies: club, dagger, dart, quarterstaff, scimitar, sickle, 
shortspear, sling, and spear
Armor Proficiencies: light, medium and shield (no metal allowed)

Hierophant:
Spell Power +3

Loremaster:
Secret: Any Bonus Feat
Lore (+9)


RACE ABILITIES
Fey
+3 natural armor
Damage reduction 5/cold iron
Spell-Like Abilities: At will—entangle (DC 27), speak with plants, tree 
shape; 3/day— charm person (DC 27), deep slumber (DC 29), tree stride; 
1/day—suggestion (DC 29). Caster level 6th. The save DCs are Wisdom-
based.
Tree Dependent (Su): Each dryad is mystically bound to a single, enormous 
oak tree and must never stray more than 300 yards from it. Any who do 
become ill and die within 4d6 hours. A dryad’s oak does not radiate 
magic. 
Wild Empathy (Ex): This power works like the druid’s wild empathy class 
feature, except that the dryad has a +6 racial bonus on the check.
Languages: Common, Elven, and Sylvan
Low-light vision
Weapon proficiency: simple and longbow

SPELLS
0th (6 per day): create water x2, detect magic x2, light, read magic
1st (5+4 per day): cure light wounds x2, detect animals or plants x2, 
entangle x2, longstrider, obscuring mists x2
2nd (5+4 per day): animal messenger x2, barkskin x2, bull’s strength x2,
gust of wind x3
3rd (5+4 per day): call lightning, consecrated harrier x2, cure moderate 
wounds x2, dominate animal, greater magic fang x2, 
neutralize poison
4th (5+4 per day): air walk, dispel magic, flamestrike x2, freedom of 
movement, ice storm, last breath x2, scrying
5th (5+3 per day): baleful polymorph x2, commune with nature x3, deathward,
regenerate moderate wounds, wall of fire
6th (4+3 per day): antilife shell, greater dispel magic x2, stone tell, 
transport via plants, wall of stone x2
7th (4+3 per day): creeping doom, firestorm, heal x3, true seeing, windwalk
8th (4+3 per day): control plants x2, earthquake, finger of death x2, 
whirlwind, word of recall
9th (4+2 per day): elemental swarm, foresight, invulnerability to elements 
x2, shapechange x2

ARMOR
Absorbing Wild Leather Scale Armor (Elven Leafweave) +4 (AC +7, DEX +7, 
penalty +0, 30ft.)
Wild Dragonhide Large Shield of Arrow Deflection +5 (AC +7, penalty –2)

WEAPON
Force Scimitar of Distance, Returning and Throwing +5 (+27/22/17 melee 
atk, +29/24/19 ranged atk, 1d6+10 dmg, 18-20/x2)

EQUIPMENT
1,440,000gp Periapt of Epic Wisdom +12
600,000gp Rod of Invulnerability
501,187gp Staff of the Hierophant
300,000gp Ring of Sequestering
200,385gp Force Scimitar of Distance Returning and Throwing +5
175,000gp Mirror of Mental Prowess
137,500gp Tome of Clear Understanding +5
110,000gp Manual of Bodily Health +4
90,000gp Belt of Mighty Prowess +6 Enhancement bonus to Strength and Con
101,085gp Absorbing Wild Leather Scale Armor (Elven Leafweave) +4
100,750gp Wild Dragonhide Large Shield of Arrow Deflection +5
97,950gp Ring of Three Wishes
82,500gp Tome of Leadership and Influence +3
75,000gp Gem of Seeing
50,000gp Cloak of Greater Displacement
50,000gp Ring of Protection +5
46,505gp Javelin of Obliteration x5
30,000gp Orange Prism Ioun Stone
20,000gp Luck Stone
18,012gp Javelin of Greater Lightning x12
9,000gp Gloves of Dexterity +3
16,000gp Collar of Resistance +4
10,000gp Druid’s Vestment
7,400gp Bag of Holding (Type III)
3,000gp Bag of Tricks (rust)
1,800gp Efficient Quiver
1,950gp Scroll of Heal (13th level)
900gp Bag of Tricks (gray)
-----------
4,275,924gp Total

Note:  Due to some Errata the cost of additional powers on an item are base cost for the highest and 1.5 cost for the rest, which lowered the cost of your belt.  Also a +3 Dex item is 9k not 18k

Things I would suggest acquiring:

36,000 +6 intelligence item.  I actually already assumed you had it since it is necessary to get the bonus feat from Loremaster. 

135,000 Item that grants +3 Caster levels

50,000 Amulet that grants +2 to spells DCs

25,800 Standard Set of Prayer beads


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Oct 28, 2004)

I would rather you take your feats when you get them, instead of "saving" them, as it usually ends up with someone having a ton of high-level feats.  And that usually ends up throwing balance out of whack somewhere.


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## Wrahn (Oct 28, 2004)

Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> I would rather you take your feats when you get them, instead of "saving" them, as it usually ends up with someone having a ton of high-level feats.  And that usually ends up throwing balance out of whack somewhere.




Fair enough.  I tend to agree.

So perivas, You might want to consider taking the Improved Spell Capacity feats, getting 10th, 11th and 12th level spells slots with their associated bonus spells for your wisdom.

It requires a more complicated spell list and you might want to consider changing out extend and persistent spell with empower and (insert your favorite meta magic feat here) to open up more choices to use with your new upper range of spells.


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## TheOneAboveAll (Oct 29, 2004)

Isida, 

In BoEM 3 can starlight be altered to be divine sunlight?


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Oct 29, 2004)

One - That should be fine.  

Also, here's a preliminary version of your weapon.  Since you have BoEM III (I assume, because you're quoting from it), you know that you have to invest XP to level a weapon, and I could only make it 8th level without lower your level.  If you want to invest more XP (that would lower your level), that's fine.  Just remember that you must be a higher level than your weapon.

*Nyla, the Holy One, lawful good intelligent bastard sword, 8th level:*  hardness 20, hp 15;_Communication:_  Telepathy; _Perception:_  Blindsense 60ft., and Hearing; 

*Abilities:*  Int12, Wis 8, Cha 15.

*Saves*
Fort +10 +[6 base, +2 enhancement, +2 for hardness]
Ref +8 [+6 base, +2 enhancement]
Will +7 [+6 base, +2 enhancement, -1 Wis]

*Skills:*
Knowledge (religion) +12 [11 ranks, +1 Int]
Knowledge (the plantes) +12 [11 ranks, +1 Int]
Diplomacy +13 [11 ranks, +1 Cha]

*Feats*
1st – Weapon enhancement (+1)
2nd – Weapon ability (+1 equivalent)
4th – Weapon ability (additional +1 equivalent)
6th – Weapon enhancement (additional +1)
8th – Bestow Feat (Can bestow Blindsense 60ft. on wielder)

Nyla is a adamantine +2 holy bastard sword.  She can bestow blindsense 60 ft. on her wielder, as well as cast the following spells the indicated number of times per day.

*2/day* – _hygiene_
*1/day* – _cure minor wounds, expeditious retreat, ray of hope (BoED), cure light wounds, lethality denied (BoEM III), cure moderate wounds, daylight, death ward_

Nyla costs 8,035gp and 8,488xp to create.  

Nyla has an elegant long blade, extremely sharp, with an exaggerated point.  Her hilt is seemingly made of gold, and seems to be a pair of arms, their elbows clasping a diamond for the pommel, their arms forming the crossguard, and the hands clasping crystal suns at the end of the quillions.  

Nyla is as calm as a priestess with a voice like a lullaby.  She was forged in ancient times as a tool to combat undead, and takes her purpose very seriously.  She tries to convince her bearer that his time would be better served ridding the world of undead, using her quiet, impeccable logic to convince them.  In the hand of someone evil, she tends to make their lives as terrible as possible, in hopes they will throw her away for a champion of good to find.


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## TheOneAboveAll (Oct 29, 2004)

Isida,

Thanks, I will work on it(the starlight and all that comes with it, to see what I might come up with).

The weapon actually looks pretty good, thanks.  But what if you brought me down a level?  Where would that bring the weapon?


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## TheOneAboveAll (Oct 29, 2004)

Yes,

I have looked upon the Monte Cook books and have found them quite interesting.  Though I have not yet swayed from my current character, I am looking into an alternate.


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## Kelleris (Oct 29, 2004)

Here's my character sheet so far (just the crunchies):

*Arion Kietsudoku*
*Male Half-fey/Half-human Bard 22, Ex-assassin 5, (3.0) Duelist 1, Shadowdancer 1*
*Alignment:* Chaotic Good
*Patron Deity:* Irreligious
*Region:* Rokugan, Endless Falls
*Height:* 5’ 9”
*Weight:* 147 lbs.
*Hair:* Dirty Blonde
*Eyes:* Vary by season
*Age:* 312 years

*Str:* 21 (+5) [15 base + 6 enhancement]
*Dex:* 28 (+9) [22 base + 6 enhancement]
*Con:* 22 (+6) [16 base + 6 enhancement] 
*Int:* 34 (+12) [28 base + 6 enhancement] 
*Wis:* 7 (–2) [7 base]
*Cha:* 29 (+9) [23 base + 6 enhancement]


*Class and Racial Abilities:*

_Human:_
no favored class, additional feat at 1st level, 4 skill points at 1st level and +1 skill point per level thereafter 

_Half-fey:_
low-light vision, immune to enchantment spells and effects, +2 Dex, -2 Con, +4 Cha, _charm person_ at will, _hypnotism_ 1/day, _faerie fire_ or _glitterdust_ 1/day, _detect law_ 3/day, _sleep_ or _enthrall_ 1/day, _protection from law_ 3/day, _Tasha’s hideous laughter_ or _suggestion_ 1/day, _confusion_ or _emotion_ 1/day, _eyebite_ or _lesser geas_ 1/day, _dominate person_ or _hold monster_ 1/day, _mass invisibility_ 1/day, _geas_ or _mass suggestion_ 1/day, _insanity_ or _mass charm_ 1/day, _Otto’s irresistible dance_ 1/day

_Bard:_
bardic knowledge (+42), bardic “music” (countersong, fascinate, inspire courage +4, inspire competence, mass suggestion, inspire greatness, song of freedom, inspire heroics, and see “equipment,” below), spells

_Ex-assassin:_
death attack (DC 29), poison use, improved uncanny dodge, +2 save against poison, 3 fighter bonus feats, spells

_Duelist:_
canny defense

_Shadowdancer:_
hide in plain sight


*Hit Dice:*  28d6 + 1d10 + 174
*HP:* 280
*AC:* 57 [66 melee] (10 + 5 luck + 5 deflection + 12 Int + 9 Dex [+9 insight] + 2 dodge + 1 monk + 8 armor + 5 natural armor enhancement)
*Init:* +9 (+9 Dex)
*Speed:* 40 ft.


*Saves:*
*Fortitude:* +28 (6 base, +6 Con, + 4 epic + 5 resistance + 5 luck + 2 morale) [+30 vs. poison]
*Reflex:* +38 (13 base, +9 Dex, + 4 epic + 5 resistance + 5 luck + 2 morale)  [+47 in melee]
*Will:* +24 (10 base, –2 Wis, + 4 epic + 5 resistance + 5 luck + 2 morale) 


*Attacks:*
*BAB:* +20/+15/+10
*Melee Atk:* +51/+46/+41 (1d6+15) [20 BAB + 9 Dex + 9 insight + 7 enhancement + 1 weapon focus + 2 morale + 3 luck]
*Ranged Atk:* +41/+36/+31 (1d4+5/x2/100 ft./B, Nevermiss) [20 BAB + 9 Dex + 5 enhancement + 2 competence + 2 morale + 3 luck]


*Skills:*
_Balance:_ +42/+75 [22 invested] (32 ranks + 9 Dex + 4 competence + 3 luck + 11 item familiar + 10 enhancement + 2 morale + 4 synergy) 
_Bluff:_ +50 (32 ranks + 9 Cha + 4 competence + 3 luck + 2 morale) 
_Climb:_ +34/+67 [22 invested] (32 ranks + 5 Str + 4 competence + 3 luck + 11 item familiar + 10 enhancement + 2 morale)  
_Concentration:_ +15/+30 [15 invested] (15 ranks + 6 Con + 4 competence + 3 luck + 2 morale)  
_Craft (action):_ +45 (16 ranks + 12 Int + 4 competence + 3 luck + 2 morale + 8 synergy) 
_Diplomacy:_ +36 (12 ranks + 9 Cha + 4 competence + 3 luck + 2 morale + 6 synergy) 
_Disguise:_ +26/+45 [19 invested] (23 ranks +9 Cha + 4 competence + 3 luck + 2 morale + 4 synergy)  
_Escape Artist:_ +18/+50 [32 invested] (32 ranks + 9 Dex + 4 competence + 3 luck + 2 morale)  
_Hide:_ +42/+71 [18 invested] (32 ranks + 9 Dex + 4 competence + 3 luck + 11 item familiar + 10 enhancement + 2 morale)  
_Jump:_ +38/+71 [22 invested] (32 ranks + 5 Str + 4 competence + 3 luck + 11 item familiar + 10 enhancement + 2 morale + 4 synergy)  
_Knowledge (history):_ +26 (5 ranks + 12 Int + 4 competence + 3 luck + 2 morale) 
_Move Silently:_ +42/+71 [18 invested] (32 ranks + 9 Dex + 4 competence + 3 luck + 11 item familiar + 10 enhancement + 2 morale)  
_Perform (act):_ +23/+41 [18 invested] (23 ranks + 9 Cha + 4 competence + 3 luck + 2 morale)  
_Perform (comedy):_ +50 (32 ranks + 9 Cha + 4 competence + 3 luck + 2 morale) 
_Perform (dance):_ +38/+71 [22 invested] (32 ranks + 9 Cha + 4 competence + 3 luck + 11 item familiar + 10 enhancement + 2 morale)  
_Perform (oratory):_ +41 (23 ranks + 9 Cha + 4 competence + 3 luck + 2 morale) 
_Sense Motive:_ +11/+14 [3 invested] (7 ranks –2 Wis + 4 competence + 3 luck + 2 morale)  
_Sleight of Hand:_ +64/+75 (32 ranks + 9 Dex + 4 competence + 3 luck + 11 item familiar + 10 enhancement + 2 morale + 4 synergy) 
_Spellcraft:_ +46 (25 ranks + 12 Int + 4 competence + 3 luck + 2 morale) 
_Tumble:_ +27/+47 [20 invested] (25 ranks + 9 Dex + 4 competence + 3 luck + 2 morale + 4 synergy)  

*Languages:* Common, Rokugani


*Feats:*
Deflect Arrows [IB]
Snatch Arrows [IB]
Dodge (HB)
Obscure Lore (Flaw: Gullible)
Weapon Finesse (1)
Item Familiar (3)
Combat Expertise (6)
Mobility (AB)
Weapon Focus (rapier) (AB)
Arcane Strike (9)
Combat Reflexes (AB)
Craft Masterpiece Performance (12)
Single Blade Style (15)
Practiced Spellcaster (18)
Permanent Emanation (_zone of silence_) (21)
Weaver of Symphonies (24)
Battle Dance (27)


*Spells per Day:* 
*Spells Known:*
_Save DC: 19 + spell level_
*0th –* _dancing lights_, _footpad’s grace_ (DR302), _ghost sound_, _glittering razors_ (DR302), _light_, _prestidigitation_
*1st –* _comprehend languages_, _feather fall_, _grease_, _harmony_ (S&S), _undetectable alignment_
*2nd –* _alter self_, _cure moderate wounds_, _heroism_, _misdirection_, _tongues_
*3rd –* _blink_, _haste_, _fear_, _glibness_, _sculpt sound_
*4th –* _dimension door_, _freedom of movement_, _legend lore_, _ruin delver’s fortune_ (WotC), _zone of silence_
*5th* – _false vision_, _improvisation_ (S&S), _mislead_, _persistent image_, _shadow walk_
*6th* – _analyze dweomer_, _animate objects_, _heroes’ feast_, _programmed image_


*Equipment:*
_Akumunaga, the Serpent’s Nightmare_ [574,715 gold pieces]

_charm of the Mugenaga clan_ (+10 enhancement bonus on all Balance, Climb, Hide, Jump, Move Silently, Perform (dance), Sleight of Hand checks) [100,000 gold pieces] 
_cloak of defense_ (+5 resistance bonus to saves, +5 deflection bonus to AC, +5 enhancement bonus to natural armor) [325,000 gold pieces] 
_greater bracers of throwing_ [25,000 gold pieces] 
_greater luck stone_ (possessor gains a +3 luck bonus on saving _lesser crown of mastery_ [153,000 gold pieces] 
_metamagic rod of disguise_ [11,000 gold pieces] 
_metamagic rod of quickening_ [75,500 gold pieces] 
_ring of regeneration_ [90,000 gold pieces] 
throws, ability checks, skill checks, and attack rolls) [180,000 gold pieces] 
_sacred scrolls of the Mugenaga clan_ (grant improved kuji-kiri; see below) [110,000 gold pieces] 

_devil’s own luck_ (+5 luck bonus on saves and AC) [150,000 gold pieces] 
_fruits of Mottlegrasp’s orchard_ (already eaten) [687,500] 
_lightning hands_ (grants the Deflect Arrows and Snatch Arrows feats; doesn’t use a slot] [8,000 gold pieces] 
_perfected chakras_ (+6 enhancement bonus to Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, and Charisma; doesn’t use any slots) [288,000 gold pieces] 
_personal pocket dimension_ (25 slotless, easy-access heward’s haversacks  see below; doesn’t take an item slot) [75,000 gold pieces] 
_protector’s instinct_ (+8 armor bonus to AC, _reflecting_ armor special ability; doesn’t take up a slot) [338,000 gold pieces] _predator’s instinct_ (as _monk’s belt_; doesn’t use a slot) [26,000 gold pieces] 
_shadow mastery_ (as _robe of stars_, plus may cast _silent image_ at will as a caster of your character level; doesn’t use a slot) [120,000 gold pieces] 
_unchained soul_ (+3 caster level) [168,750 gold pieces] 

*Money:*


*Appearance:*

*Personality:*

*Background:*


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Oct 29, 2004)

TheOneAboveAll said:
			
		

> Isida,
> 
> Thanks, I will work on it(the starlight and all that comes with it, to see what I might come up with).
> 
> The weapon actually looks pretty good, thanks.  But what if you brought me down a level?  Where would that bring the weapon?



  If I were to drain you to 407,965, spending a total of 35,488 XP on the blade, that would bring it up to 17th level.  Here's a 17th level version of Nyla.

*Nyla, the Holy One, lawful good intelligent bastard sword, 17th level:*  hardness 20, hp 21;_Communication:_  Telepathy; _Perception:_  Blindsense 60ft., and Hearing; 

*Abilities:*  Int12, Wis 12, Cha 15.

*Saves*
Fort +10 +[10 base, +2 enhancement, +2 for hardness]
Ref +8 [+10 base, +2 enhancement]
Will +7 [+10 base, +2 enhancement, +1 Wis]

*Skills:*
Knowledge (religion) +21 [20 ranks, +1 Int]
Knowledge (the planes) +21 [20 ranks, +1 Int]
Diplomacy +22 [20 ranks, +2 Cha]

*Feats*
1st – Weapon enhancement (+1)
2nd – Weapon ability (+1 equivalent)
4th – Weapon ability (additional +1 equivalent)
6th – Weapon enhancement (additional +1)
8th – Bestow Feat (Can bestow Blindsense 60ft. on wielder)
10th – Weapon enhancement (additional +1)
12th – Weapon ability (_ghost touch_)
14th – Weapon enhancement (additional +1)
16th – Weapon ability (_undead bane_)


Nyla is an adamantine +4 holy ghost touch undead bane bastard sword.  She can bestow blindsense 60 ft. on her wielder, as well as cast the following spells the indicated number of times per day.

*2/day* – _ cure light wounds, death ward, detect undead, disrupt undead, disrupting weapon, hygiene, searing light_
*1/day* – _consecrate, cure minor wounds, cure moderate wounds, cure serious wounds, daylight, divine power, eagle’s splendor, expeditious retreat, heal, holy word, lesser restoration, lethality denied (BoEM III), mass cure critical wounds, mass cure light wounds, ray of hope (BoED), resurrection, restoration, undeath to death_

Nyla costs 8,035gp and 35,488xp to create.  

Nyla has an elegant long blade, extremely sharp, with an exaggerated point.  Her hilt is seemingly made of gold, and seems to be a pair of arms, their elbows clasping a diamond for the pommel, their arms forming the crossguard, and the hands clasping crystal suns at the end of the quillions.  

Nyla is as calm as a priestess with a voice like a lullaby.  She was forged in ancient times as a tool to combat undead, and takes her purpose very seriously.  She tries to convince her bearer that his time would be better served ridding the world of undead, using her quiet, impeccable logic to convince them.  In the hand of someone evil, she tends to make their lives as terrible as possible, in hopes they will throw her away for a champion of good to find.


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## Kelleris (Oct 29, 2004)

How does my character look, Isida?  I'd really like to have the stats all squared away before I get too far into the background material.  Also, you never answered the last few questions I had.

If it matters, I have slightly less than 800,000 gold remaining.  Also, it looks like I'm going to pass on the BoEM III intelligent weapon rules.  I can't afford to lose the XP, and I definitely want to have an item that can bypass epic DR.  I can't afford to be taking 15-20 point hits on my damage rolls.

Actually, can I get back some of the XP I used to buy down my LA?  I did remove a couple of things for flavor reasons, and it makes sense that I'd get some of the XP that a more powerful character wouldn't have had to earn.  I spent 16,000 XP total on the template, so anything I can get will make me happy.    

Man, I am so salivating over next level.  I will gain not one but _two_ epic feat slots.  Yum!


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Oct 29, 2004)

Kelleris, I'll withhold looking over your character until you finish everything you need to and get around to explaining everything.  Otherwise I'm going to be going, "What?" and "Why?" until you punch the screen and that just won't do.


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Oct 29, 2004)

Kelleris - I think I could be aimiable for a 1/month res of you _and_ your sword if you want to blow the cash on it.


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## Kelleris (Oct 29, 2004)

400k?

All I was looking for was if any of the numbers looked too high or too low to you, and the feats and spells chosen all looked okay.  Everything else is going to take a bit longer, especially the item descriptions.

Can't expect you to evaluate something without all the info, can I?  I just keep hoping for a psychic DM so I don't have to explain myself.  Better keep looking, I guiess.      I just wanted an impression on what was already there, so I'll know I won't have to do anything major like changing a feat I had selected or dropping/raising my AC by 10 points or something.

Actually, I have so little experience with epic level that I'd like some help too.  Do any of the numbers look too low (AC or aattacks bonuses, and particularly saves), or am I forgetting something that's just absolutely essential?

As for the items, I figured 800,000 gold would be a sufficient buffer if you (eventually) deem any of it too underpriced.    

I know i'm being somewhat difficult, so thanks for your time!


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## Wrahn (Oct 29, 2004)

Okay I found a few problems with your items.  Some save you money, some cost you money, some just plain suck, some are tiny nitpicky things.  Of course this is my understanding of the rules and not necessarily correct or Isida’s understanding of the rules.   There were several things I had no clue on, so I left those alone.



> charm of the Mugenaga clan (+10 enhancement bonus on all Balance, Climb, Hide, Jump, Move Silently, Perform (dance), Sleight of Hand checks) [100,000 gold pieces]




According to the item creation rules, it is a +10 Competence bonus not a enhancement bonus



> cloak of defense (+5 resistance bonus to saves, +5 deflection bonus to AC, +5 enhancement bonus to natural armor) [325,000 gold pieces]




+5 Deflection bonus (50,000) + +5 to Natural Armor (50,000 x 1.5) + +5 Resistance bonus to saves (25,000 x 1.5) = 162,500



> metamagic rod of quickening [75,500 gold pieces]




This sucks, but



			
				 3.5 SRD said:
			
		

> A sorcerer still must take a full-round action when using a metamagic rod, just as if using a metamagic feat he possesses.







> throws, ability checks, skill checks, and attack rolls) [180,000 gold pieces]




(???)

sacred scrolls of the Mugenaga clan (grant improved kuji-kiri; see below) [110,000 gold pieces] 



> devil’s own luck (+5 luck bonus on saves and AC) [150,000 gold pieces]




AC bonus (other) +5 (62,500) + Save Bonus (other) +5 additional ability (50,000 x 1.5= 75,000) = 137,500 



> perfected chakras (+6 enhancement bonus to Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, and Charisma; doesn’t use any slots) [288,000 gold pieces]





Any item that costs more that 200,000 gp is considered epic.  Which means you multiply it’s cost by 10.  On the otherhand some game masters take this to mean any single effect of an item is over 200k.  You can avoid this problem by breaking up the items that into the perfect Chackra’s one for each stat, since they don’t take item slots anyway.  The price is wrong too:

36,000 x 5 x 2 =360,000





> personal pocket dimension (25 slotless, easy-access heward’s haversacks see below; doesn’t take an item slot) [75,000 gold pieces]




25 x  2k x 2 = 100k



> protector’s instinct (+8 armor bonus to AC, reflecting armor special ability; doesn’t take up a slot) [338,000 gold pieces]




Okay, first off, how did you buy this.  Second, you have a real problem with the epic cost on this.



> shadow mastery (as robe of stars, plus may cast silent image at will as a caster of your character level; doesn’t use a slot) [120,000 gold pieces]





Okay, (58,000 + 1*1*1800(spell activation not continuous)) x2 = 119,600
Items almost universally have their own caster level, but if you wanted to make it dependent on user, there aren’t any rules for that. 



> unchained soul (+3 caster level) [168,750 gold pieces]




Deconstructing the orange prism Ioun stone it appears the cost for +1 caster level is the + to level squared time 15,000 or for +3 item 135,000.  Do you have another


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## Ferrix (Oct 29, 2004)

So I'm going the psion/constructor route now that OneAboveAll chipped in on his sungod holy warrior type and I thought it'd be too much overlap.

I wanted to develop an epic progression for the constructor... here's what I have.

*Epic Constructor Progression*
- Manifester level increases every level
- Ectoprotection keeps increasing by 1 every even level
- Boost construct every four levels after 8th (12th, 16th, 20th, etc.)
- Epic Construction at level 11; allows the constructor to create constructs beyond level 9.
- Epic Construction Menu for 10+ level constructs.
- Bonus epic feats every 5th epic level (15th, 20th, etc.)

I'm working on extrapolating the astral constructs beyond level 9 using basically the progression already built into the series.  Surprisingly the level 9 construct is only CR 10 (meaning he'd be slaughtered at our level), so I thought it necessary.

Also working on epic construct menus for those higher level constructs.

Any thoughts?


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## perivas (Oct 29, 2004)

Wrahn, I appreciate your hard work very much.  It's just going to take me a little while to digest...especially given the utter collapse of my initial take on the wild shape ability.  However, I must point out that changing to an elemental weird is still extremely powerful (they only have 15-HD, but have the precognition supernatural ability).  I'll change my character accordingly after I analysis my options further.  Once again, thank you very much.


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## Ferrix (Oct 29, 2004)

perivas said:
			
		

> Wrahn, I appreciate your hard work very much.  It's just going to take me a little while to digest...especially given the utter collapse of my initial take on the wild shape ability.  However, I must point out that changing to an elemental weird is still extremely powerful (they only have 15-HD, but have the precognition supernatural ability).  I'll change my character accordingly after I analysis my options further.  Once again, thank you very much.




A druid's wild shape is not limited to 15HD as per the polymorph spell, it is limited by the druids level.



			
				SRD said:
			
		

> Wild Shape (Su): At 5th level, a druid gains the ability to turn herself into any Small or Medium animal and back again once per day. Her options for new forms include all creatures with the animal type. This ability functions like the polymorph spell, except as noted here. The effect lasts for 1 hour per druid level, or until she changes back. Changing form (to animal or back) is a standard action and doesn?t provoke an attack of opportunity.
> 
> The form chosen must be that of an animal the druid is familiar with.
> 
> ...




Particularly the reason for this is because at 20th level it says they can change into a Huge elemental, the lowest HD of a huge elemental is 16HD.  That'd also mean no Dire Tiger or Dire Shark wildshape.


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## Wrahn (Oct 29, 2004)

Ferrix said:
			
		

> So I'm going the psion/constructor route now that OneAboveAll chipped in on his sungod holy warrior type and I thought it'd be too much overlap.
> 
> I wanted to develop an epic progression for the constructor... here's what I have.
> 
> ...




Here is WotC's thought on the subject: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20030221a

Which apparently they believe that the ability to summon an army of lesser creatures is pretty epic (which I guess it is)


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Oct 29, 2004)

As for changing into an elemental, I would rule that would change into an _elemental_, not any creature with the elemental subtype.  Because that's awfully broad.  I would allow you to change into a primal elemental as an epic druid, and perhaps even a storm elemental, tempest, or omnielemental.  In fact, I'll let you be any straight-up elemental (obsidian, acid, lightning), anything but a time or psionic elemental.  But not just any creature with the elemental subtype.  That be cool perivas?


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## Wrahn (Oct 29, 2004)

A few thought (coming from a guy who played an epic shifter in a home campaign)

Your limit on wildshape isn't even your druid level, it is your Hit Dice (in your case 29, so you can shift into something with 29 hit dice or less that meets your qualification)

Second, I agree with Isida, I do think you are limited to "pure" elementals with the basic druid.  However, Shapechange does not have that limitation.  Anything you want.  It however is limited by 25 hit dice rather than 29 and wildshape will continue to grow if we get more levels.  Shapechange does change as a free action, grants you any size from fine to collossal and gives the supernatural abilities of what you change into.

If you are serious about using Wildshape as your primary focus of your character, I would think about the Shifter.

*********
Isida,

I am playing with a couple of ideas.  In my game, when someone has a tattoo, I charge base cost x3 for the difficulty of removal as well as the no item space.  Is this cool with you?


----------



## Ferrix (Oct 29, 2004)

Yeah, I love how they completely disregard their own advice on epic progression.  "If it has a bonus that seems to follow a consistent pattern, it follows through epic levels..." never seems to happen.

I'd prefer to work this one out on my own, I don't like their version and think that a CR 10 construct at level 30 is going to get turned into a pile of goo within seconds.


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## Ferrix (Oct 29, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> *********
> Isida,
> 
> I am playing with a couple of ideas.  In my game, when someone has a tattoo, I charge base cost x3 for the difficulty of removal as well as the no item space.  Is this cool with you?




How about we just go with the standard rule of x2 for a no-slot item as that is how they are listed in the game.


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Oct 29, 2004)

What exactly were you thinking for the tattoo?


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## Kelleris (Oct 29, 2004)

Ferrix said:
			
		

> How about we just go with the standard rule of x2 for a no-slot item as that is how they are listed in the game?




I second that.  My take on it is that you gain the impossibility of the "item" being physically destroyed (which rarely happens anyway, except to weapons and armor) and lose the ability to loan and (more importantly) sell and upgrade the item.  It strikes me as a wash overall.

As for the items, I'll explain my pricing  once I'm on a computer with a better connection than this nasty dial-up modem.  However, I will say that I was just generally expecting that 800,000 gold would be sufficient for making up for any +/- differences that come up.

I just want to know how the raw numbers and feat selections look.  They'll be around there in the end, maybe plus or minus 2 points or so.  I haven't played epic before, so I would like to know what's high for this level, what's low, and what's merely "eh."  Please?   

Oh, by the way.  While the chakras are considered an epic item, they don't get the price multiplied by 10 just for that reason.  That's just the convention they follow for the higher bonuses.  As long as you don't break into any of the wiggy bonuses of epic levels, you still use the same pricing guidelines you always did.  Why do you think things like those _boots of swiftness_ cost as much as they do?  Surely you don't think that the base price was only 25,600 for them?  The bonus to Dex _alone_ costs more than that!

All the epic thing means is that it requires Craft Epic Wondrous Item to make and a caster level of at least 21.  By itself, that does nothing at all to the price.


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## Kangaxx (Oct 29, 2004)

I drastically underestimated the amount of time this would require.  I had to make a spreadsheet to do Pilmer's skills, for keeping track of his constantly increasing int and constantly shifting class.  If anyone wants to double check my math, I can email you a copy.

But now all I have left is magic items and developing a spellbook, so hopefully I'll be done today.


----------



## Ferrix (Oct 29, 2004)

Also a note is that the epic constructor they have is actually for the 3.0 version of the constructor.


----------



## Wrahn (Oct 29, 2004)

3.5 SRD said:
			
		

> Grants a bonus on attacks or damage greater than +5.
> Grants an enhancement bonus to armor higher than +5.
> Has a special ability with a market price modifier greater than +5.
> Grants an armor bonus of greater than +10 (not including magic armor’s enhancement bonus).
> ...




Those are the qualifications for the epic costs, anything that falls into those catagories get's the x10 multiplier.

*******

Isida,

I was thinking Monks Belt.

As far as what the basic rules say about Tattoos other than the psionic stuff is nothing.  x2 is for not having an item slot, like an Ioun Stone, not to become part of your character.

Not being able to sell the "item" or to trade it is a limitation, but being unable to remove it from you far outweighs those inconviences.  Which is why I charge the x3.


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## Ferrix (Oct 29, 2004)

We could just say that magical tattoos function like psionic tattoos in that you can transfer them willing to another creature or take them from an unconscious creature.  And that just leaves them as normal x2 no-slot items.


----------



## Wrahn (Oct 29, 2004)

Ferrix-

We could agree that the psionic tattoos are indeed worth the x2, however, I still wish mine to be of the unremovable variety. 

I understand and at least partially agree about the Constructor, but you are over looking a something.  I am not sure is this is the way it actually works, but they mentioned Empowered Astral Constructs, which leads me to believe you could Intensify one.

An intensified one would have 420 hit points, it would hit for 40 points of damage a swing, it’s real problem isn’t that it will be obliterated, it is that it will be ignored.  With only a +28 to attack people can pretty much ignore its existence while they concentrate on the generator (you).

I would add a pretty hefty insight bonus to hit (+10-+20 depending) on the D list and call it a day.  Maybe an Always hasted ability too.

I guess what I am saying is that the tools exist to make it workable, why reinvent the wheel.

Edit

Oh and Kangaxx, if you want to send it to me at Wrahnn(at)yahoo(dot)com, I would be happy to look it over.


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## Ferrix (Oct 29, 2004)

Well if the wheel is square, I wouldn't call it very effective.


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## Wrahn (Oct 29, 2004)

I just read the section in the SRD closer, while I am pretty sure the epic level handbook just gave it a flat x10, apparently it doesn’t work that way any longer.  It only applies to bonuses that fall into the epic level.  Which, for reference, is open to incredible abuses.  Example:

Wish, at will  9x17x1800 +  5000x5x100 = 2,775,400

This looks like a lot, but it is incredibly abusive.  That is any spell, eighth level or lower, at will.  No need to buy books, you will have the +5 inherent bonus to all stats, heck if you are working together with the rest of the party, they will have +5 to all their stats too.  Gah!

Gee, I am thirsty, I could walk across the room, no wait, I will wish the room to move across to me.

Oh well, I am beginning to form a character idea even as I type.  Lazy man and his incredible wish machine.  He could sit around and peddle his services on street corners.

25gp and you can have +5 inherent bonus to all your stats, 100gp and I will do them all.  Make up that 3 million in no time.  Army comes to steal your wish machine?  No problem, wish them to another country.

Ah well, no one has done this at this point so it doesn’t matter.


Ferrix-

I don't think it is square, maybe octagonol 

You could turn it with some work.


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## Kelleris (Oct 29, 2004)

Wrahn, you're half right, it _is_ an epic item.  There is nothing that says that it arbitrarily gets multiplied by 10 for that reason.  If there _were_, it would still be wrong, snce the item is hardly worth that much and those are _guidelines_, not hard-and-fast rules.

if you did think that, you also commit yourself to some pretty silly pricings.  For one thing, it would be impossible to have any epic item worth less than 2 million gold that wasn't granting a flat bonus.  There are at least a dozen examples of items in the ELH that prove this wrong, the _boots of swiftness_ I mentioned among them.

Even aside from all that, the 200,000 gold limit is hardly something hard and fast even in the core rules.  Look at the greater metamagic rod of quickening, for instance.

Thanks for catching the other stuff, though.  I doubled the _charm_ cost and made it an insight bonus, and dropped the metamagic rod.

@ Isida - I should point out that the last subdivision of items on my list are slotless and nonphysical, for whatever reason.  I did double price for most of them and 2.25x for a few others.  As I stated above, I think the inability to trade them in later when I find a superior item (they can't be sold or "taken off") balances the invulnerability to physical destruction (though they can still be _dispelled_ or _disjoined_ as normal).  I'm working on the item backgrounds right now, and I'll be more specific about what they can do (especially the sword) and how I priced them.


----------



## Ferrix (Oct 29, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> I just read the section in the SRD closer, while I am pretty sure the epic level handbook just gave it a flat x10, apparently it doesn?t work that way any longer.  It only applies to bonuses that fall into the epic level.  Which, for reference, is open to incredible abuses.  Example:
> 
> Wish, at will  9x17x1800 +  5000x5x100 = 2,775,400
> 
> ...




You could refer to the part of Isida's creation post affirming the Veto power of the DM ;-).  That might work to abolish the wish peddler.


----------



## Kelleris (Oct 29, 2004)

Darn.  Beat me to it!   

The thing is, those are guidelines.  You can't make a _wish_-at-will item because the DM won't let you.  It's the same reason that you can't buy an item of _cure light wounds_ at will for 2,000 gold - because we aren't playing a video game.*

* - Not knocking the video games.  I love me some _Final Fintasy_!


----------



## Kangaxx (Oct 29, 2004)

Heh, I didn't think anyone would actually want to look at it.  Wrahn, I emailed you the spreadsheet.  Hopefully it's not too obfuscated.


----------



## Kelleris (Oct 29, 2004)

Good grief.  I'm slow today...


----------



## Wrahn (Oct 29, 2004)

That was an immediate example.  There are too many to name really.  Just look at any realitively high level spell and think Wow, that would be cool if I could do it all the time:

Righteous Might
Shape Change
Valiant Fury (From the Complete Warrior)
Greater Heroism
Greater Aspect of Diety (From Defenders of the Faith)
only to name a handful off the top of my head

The Rule of Zero always applies, but opening THAT can of worms is better left to the GM and not the players.  I like the flat x10, it makes you work within bound and making epic characters is more of a intellectual puzzle for me than anything else.  That just makes it too easy.

I got it Kangaxx, going through it little by little (I have had similar spreadsheets, Ironically for my Epic Arcane trickster)

I have bad news though, while I think most of your numbers match, you do not get skill points from non-permanent intelligence bonuses (you get skill points from age, inherent bonuses and levels, not from enhancement bonus items ) 

So I think you are back to the grindstone.

Isida,

Can we retroactively apply int bonuses?  I guess I did it without asking.  If not I have to rework my skills also.


----------



## Ferrix (Oct 29, 2004)

Yeah, retroactively apply inherent and level bonuses to Int? *hint hint puh-lease*

Makes it so much easier to deal with skill point numbers at high levels.


----------



## Kelleris (Oct 30, 2004)

Yeah, I'll third the request.  I also did retroactive skill points from level and inherent bonuses.


----------



## Isida Kep'Tukari (Oct 30, 2004)

Sorry guys, you can increase your health and get tougher, but you can't go back and learn new things if you suddenly get smarter.  No retroactive skill points.  I muddled it out on my 18th level Necromancer, and my sample character, and you guys can muddle it out for your characters.


----------



## Kangaxx (Oct 30, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> I got it Kangaxx, going through it little by little (I have had similar spreadsheets, Ironically for my Epic Arcane trickster)
> 
> I have bad news though, while I think most of your numbers match, you do not get skill points from non-permanent intelligence bonuses (you get skill points from age, inherent bonuses and levels, not from enhancement bonus items )
> 
> ...




Doh, I completely forgot about that.  You might as well stop checking it, since I now need to pick some skills to ditch and redo the whole thing.


----------



## Isida Kep'Tukari (Oct 30, 2004)

If you want a really, truly, not-moveable-ever tattoo, then go for the x3 cost.  Other wise, tattoos will be the normal x2 cost for a slotless item, but someone can will it off of you like a psionic tattoo.  Is that a good compromise?

And if anyone makes a _wish_ machine, I will have the gods destroy them along with the Endless Falls.  I warned you about making the DM cry.


----------



## TheOneAboveAll (Oct 30, 2004)

How can I gain five caster levels?  Well, what is the best way other than changing classes that is?


ISIDA,
Do you haave Requiem for a god?


----------



## Isida Kep'Tukari (Oct 30, 2004)

I do indeed have Requiem for a God.  What were you looking at in there?


----------



## TheOneAboveAll (Oct 30, 2004)

Something about divinely infused, I just wanted to know what that might be all about.


----------



## Isida Kep'Tukari (Oct 30, 2004)

Ah.  That's someone who has infused themselves with godsblood and gained great powers from it.  It's kinda cool.  And appropriate for someone who's world has been destroyed.


----------



## TheOneAboveAll (Oct 30, 2004)

Might you forward me that information?

  Also I really do like the way the sword ahas shaped out so far.  Two questions though.  I noticed the price, could it be otherwise enhanced with cash? As opposed to XP?


----------



## TheOneAboveAll (Oct 30, 2004)

OH,

My email/aim if you need it is meesophat@aol.com


----------



## TheOneAboveAll (Oct 30, 2004)

As I mentioned before I was also looking at the starlight stuff.  I have some ideas on making it  adivine sunlight type of materia as wellas the starlight mage class a sunlight priest class.  I need help with the starlight elixilr ability[maybe just getting rid of it].  But for the temporal womb ability I am thinking of something that would tie in somehow with a phoenix would that be ok?  I should have something by monday.


----------



## Wrahn (Oct 30, 2004)

An item that gave +5 caster level would be 375,000 gp

Alternatively, since the +1 to caster level is an unamed bonus you could hypothetically just by 5 Orange Prism Ioun stones, though I wouldn't allow that.


----------



## Ferrix (Oct 30, 2004)

Looking through the epic level handbook I found the ring of epic psionics.  However, I thought about it for a moment and then compared it to the original 3.0 Psion as the ELH is 3.0 material.

The original 3.0 20th level psion had 183 base power points (and didn't gain additional power points in epic levels), and the rings granted 43, 63, 87, 115 and 147 power points respectively.  The respective percentages were roughly 23.5%, 34.4%, 47.5%, 62.8%, and 80.3% respectively.

The 3.5 20th level psion has 343 base power points due to the increase in the costs of powers and how powers must be augmented.  Comparing it to the unchanged epic psionic rings, the respective percentage differences then are quite massive in comparison: 12.5%, 18.4%, 25.4%, 33.5%, and 42.9%.  Each ring being on average almost half as effective as prior.  My suggestion is then to modify the rings to their original percentage of a 20th level psions maximum base power points.  They'd now be 81, 118, 163, 215, and 275 power points.

This is basically to put the epic rings of psionics on the same page as the epic rings of wizardry.

Isida, what are your thoughts?


----------



## Ferrix (Oct 30, 2004)

*Stuff on the Constructor for Isida to think about*

*Epic Constructor Progression*
- Manifester level increases every level
- Ectoprotection keeps increasing by 1 every even level
- Boost construct every four levels after 8th (12th, 16th, 20th, etc.)
- Epic Construction at level 11; allows the constructor to create constructs beyond level 9.
- Epic Construction Menus for 10+ level constructs.
- Bonus epic feats every 5th epic level (15th, 20th, etc.)

_I really didn't like the Mind's Eye Epic Insight Epic 3.0 Constructor, didn't even know it existed until Wrahn pointed it out.  I really thought this fit better and allowed the constructor to still be viable into epic levels with the massive power shift that occurs._

These are some feats that I thought up, or borrowed from other sources.
Reasonings are in italics beneath the feat.

*Infused Construction [Psionic]*
You are able to manifest greater astral constructs than would normally be allowed for your manifester level.
*Prerequisite:* Manifester level 6th+.
*Benefit:* Your power point limit is increased by 2 for purposes of manifesting astral constructs. For example, a 13th-level psion would have their power point limit raised to 15 for purposes of manifesting astral constructs.
Special: You can take this feat multiple times. Each time you take this feat beyond the first, you can add 2 power points to the power point limit for purposes of manifesting astral constructs. Your new limit cannot exceed double your base power point limit.

_Taken from Mind's Eye and altered to fit the 3.5 version of psionics.  It originally changed the metapsionic cap on manifesting by increasing it by 2, I figured the equivalent for 3.5 would be increasing the power point limit by 2.  If someone who is more familiar with 3.0 psionics wants to make a comment, let me know._

*Sculpt Construct [Psionic]*
You are able to manipulate your astral constructs features and form when they are already manifest.
*Prerequisites:* Craft (sculpting) 10 ranks, able to manifest _astral construct_, Advanced Construction class ability.
*Benefit:* Once per round as a swift action, you may make a Craft (sculpting) check to change the features and form of an astral construct that you have manifested.  The DC of the Craft (sculpting) check is a base of 10 plus other modifiers.  Changing a Menu choice increases the DC by 2 per level of the menu choice (Menu A +2, Menu B +4, etc.); changing the size of the Construct increases the DC by 4 per size category in difference.
*Normal:* Normally once you select an astral constructs Menu choices they are set for the duration of the power, also the size of the construct is usually dictated by the level construct manifested.  If the check fails, the creature takes 1d10 damage for every 2 points the DC was over the base of 10 as you try to skew and alter the ectoplasmic material.

_I just thought this would be a really cool ability for a constructor to manipulate constructs that he has already created to meet the changing circumstances of the battlefield._

*Fuse Constructs [Psionic]*
You are able to fuse two astral constructs that you have manifested together into a single more powerful creature.
*Prerequisites:* Craft (sculpting) 18 ranks, Sculpt Construct, able to manifest _astral construct_, Advanced Construction class ability.
*Benefits:* Once per round as a swift action, by expending your psionic focus, you may make a Craft (sculpting) check to fuse two adjacent astral constructs into a single more powerful creature.  The DC of the Craft (sculpting) check is 10 + the total hit dice of the two constructs.  If the check fails, both constructs take 1d10 damage per two hit dice they possess as you try to merge them together; otherwise, the two astral constructs fuse into a single creature.
This new astral construct has a number of hit dice equal to the largest initial constructs, which will be referred to as the base construct, hit dice plus one-half of the second constructs, hit dice, and a number of hit points equal to the base constructs hit points plus one half of the second constructs hit points.  This increase in hit dice increases the new constructs BAB and saves accordingly but does not change the creatures size, the new construct retains the higher of the two constructs ability scores, and retains the base constructs Menu choices and gains half, rounded down, of the Menu choices of the secondary constructs Menu choices.  The psion chooses which Menu choices are retained and which are discarded.  The duration for this fused astral construct is equal to the shortest duration left of the two initial constructs.

_I tried to make sure that this power wasn't over-powered by requiring the psion to expend focus in doing this.  The idea was a build off of the prior feat and I thought would make it quite interesting.  That and DC's get really high, really fast.  If I wanted to merge two 9th level constructs, that'd be 10 + 19 + 19 = DC 48.  To get a 27HD astral construct who only gains abilities as listed.  The epic astral constructs I'll post below make this even harder.  Trying to combine say two 15th level Astral Constructs (36HD a piece) would give a DC of 10 + 36x2 = 82.  Not so easy, even at level 30 with 33 ranks and a +17 from Intelligence, that's only a +50 to the check, meaning I'd need to roll a 32 to get it.  I thought of upping the base DC to 20 but don't know if that's too much._

*Assume Construct [Epic, Psionic]*
You are able to protect yourself by creating an astral construct around you.
*Prerequisites:* Craft (sculpting) 24 ranks, able to manifest _Astral Construct_, Epic Construction.
*Benefits:* You gain the ability to augment an _astral construct_ so that you are actually within the construct.  When doing so, you are merged with the construct.  You fight as the construct (using it?s BAB, slam attacks, base physical attributes, etc. or yours whichever is higher), you see and hear through the senses of the construct (granting you darkvision 60 ft. and low-light vision) but still using your bonuses to Spot and Listen, but you are separated from the outside.  You are considered to be shielded from the outside by a wall of ectoplasm for determining how you can manifest your powers, thus making it impossible to get line of effect or line of sight unless you can bypass these in other ways.  Augmenting an astral construct in this manner increases the power point cost by 8.

_Probably really poorly worded, but I was thinking this would be really cool for a constructor to be able to do.  To effectively create an astral construct around him which sort of functions as an extension of him physically.  Like a giant animated suit of armor._


----------



## Ferrix (Oct 30, 2004)

*Epic Astral Constructs & Menus*

*Epic Astral Constructs, 10+*

```
[B]10th-level Astral Construct[/B]
Huge Construct
Hit Dice: 22d10+40
Initiative: +0
Speed: 50 ft.
Armor Class: 35 (+27 natural, -2 size), touch 8, flat-footed 35
Base Attack/Grapple: +18/+44
Attack: Slam +36 melee (2d6+18)
Full Attack: 2 slams +36 melee (2d6+18)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./15 ft.
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: One ability from Menu D, construct traits, damage reduction
5/epic and 15/magic, darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision
Saves: Fort +7, Refl +7, Will +7
Abilities: Str 47, Dex 11, Con -, Int -, Wis 11, Cha 10
Skills: -
Feats: -

[B]11th-level Astral Construct[/B]
Huge Construct
Hit Dice: 25d10+40
Initiative: +0
Speed: 50 ft.
Armor Class: 37 (+29 natural, -2 size), touch 8, flat-footed 37
Base Attack/Grapple: +20/+48
Attack: Slam +40 melee (3d6+20)
Full Attack: 2 slams +40 melee (3d6+20)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./15 ft.
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: One ability from Menu D, construct traits, damage reduction
10/epic and 15/magic, darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision
Saves: Fort +8, Refl +8, Will +8
Abilities: Str 51, Dex 11, Con -, Int -, Wis 11, Cha 10
Skills: -
Feats: -

[B]12th-level Astral Construct[/B]
Huge Construct
Hit Dice: 27d10+40
Initiative: +0
Speed: 50 ft.
Armor Class: 39 (+31 natural, -2 size), touch 8, flat-footed 39
Base Attack/Grapple: +22/+52
Attack: Slam +44 melee (3d6+22)
Full Attack: 2 slams +44 melee (3d6+22)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./15 ft.
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: One ability from Menu E, construct traits, damage reduction
15/epic, darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision
Saves: Fort +9, Refl +9, Will +9
Abilities: Str 55, Dex 11, Con -, Int -, Wis 11, Cha 10
Skills: -
Feats: -

[B]13th-level Astral Construct[/B]
Gargantuan Construct
Hit Dice: 30d10+40
Initiative: +0
Speed: 60 ft.
Armor Class: 41 (+35 natural, -4 size), touch 7, flat-footed 41
Base Attack/Grapple: +24/+62
Attack: Slam +46 melee (4d6+26)
Full Attack: 2 slams +46 melee (4d6+26)
Space/Reach: 20 ft./20 ft.
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: One ability from Menu E, construct traits, damage reduction
15/epic and 5/-, darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision
Saves: Fort +10, Refl +10, Will +10
Abilities: Str 63, Dex 11, Con -, Int -, Wis 11, Cha 10
Skills: -
Feats: -

[B]14th-level Astral Construct[/B]
Gargantuan Construct
Hit Dice: 33d10+60
Initiative: +0
Speed: 60 ft.
Armor Class: 43 (+37 natural, -4 size), touch 6, flat-footed 43
Base Attack/Grapple: +26/+66
Attack: Slam +50 melee (4d6+28)
Full Attack: 2 slams +50 melee (4d6+28)
Space/Reach: 20 ft./20 ft.
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: One ability from Menu F, construct traits, damage reduction
15/epic and 10/-, darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision
Saves: Fort +11, Refl +11, Will +11
Abilities: Str 67, Dex 11, Con -, Int -, Wis 11, Cha 10
Skills: -
Feats: -

[B]15th-level Astral Construct[/B]
Gargantuan Construct
Hit Dice: 36d10+60
Initiative: +0
Speed: 60 ft.
Armor Class: 45 (+39 natural, -4 size), touch 6, flat-footed 45
Base Attack/Grapple: +28/+70
Attack: Slam +54 melee (4d8+30)
Full Attack: 2 slams +54 melee (4d8+30)
Space/Reach: 20 ft./20 ft.
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: One ability from Menu F, construct traits, damage reduction
15/-, darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision
Saves: Fort +12, Refl +12, Will +12
Abilities: Str 71, Dex 11, Con -, Int -, Wis 11, Cha 10
Skills: -
Feats: -
```

_Put into code so it wouldn't take up six scroll pages._

*Compiled & Expanded Astral Construct Menus*

*Astral Construct Menu A*

```
- Buff (Ex): The astral construct gains an extra 5 hit points.
- Celerity (Ex): The astral constructs land speed is increased by 10 feet.
- Cleave (Ex): The astral construct gains the Cleave feat. 
- Deflection (Ex): The astral construct gains a +1 deflection bonus to Armor
Class.
- Fly (Ex): The astral construct has physical wings and a fly speed of 20 feet
(average).
- Improved Bull Rush (Ex): The astral construct gains the Improved Bull Rush
feat.
- Improved Slam Attack (Ex): The astral construct gains the Improved
Natural Attack feat.
- Mobility (Ex): The astral construct gains the Mobility feat.
- Power Attack (Ex): The astral construct gains the Power Attack feat.
- Resistance (Ex): Choose one of the following energy types: fire, cold, acid,
electricity, or sonic. The astral construct gains resistance 5 against that
energy type.
- Swim (Ex): The astral construct is streamlined and shark like, and gains a
swim speed of 30 feet.
- Trip (Ex): If the astral construct hits with a slam attack, it can attempt to
trip the opponent as a free action without making a touch attack or
provoking attacks of opportunity. If the attempt fails, the opponent cannot
react to trip the astral construct.

Taken from the 3.5 Constructor PrC Menu Expansion
-Brawn (Ex): The astral construct does an additional +1 point of damage on a
successful melee attack. 
-Claws (Ex): The astral construct has razor sharp claws. Attacks are now
considered claw attacks instead of slams. Damage from these claw attacks is
1d8 + Strength modifier. The claw attacks are considered slashing or piercing
weapons. The type is chosen when the construct is manifested.
-Dodge (Ex): The astral construct gains the Dodge feat even if it does not
meet the prerequisites.
-Armor Spikes: The construct's body is covered in spikes, which allows the
construct to deal an extra 1d6 points of piercing damage with a successful
trample, constrict, bull rush, or grapple attack. The construct also can make
a regular melee attack with the spikes, and they deal 1d6 points of damage
(x2 critical) in that case.
```

*Astral Construct Menu B*

```
- Energy Touch (Ex): If you are a kineticist, the astral construct's physical
attacks are wreathed in your energy type, dealing an extra 1d6 points of
energy damage. If you are not a kineticist, the astral construct deals an
extra 1d4 points of damage of an energy type you choose (fire, cold, acid, or
electricity) when you manifest the construct.
- Extra Attack: If the astral construct is Medium or smaller, it gains two slam
attacks instead of one when it makes a full attack. Its bonus on damage rolls
for each attack is equal to its Strength modifier, not its Strength modifier x
1-1/2. If the astral construct is Large or larger, it gains three slams instead
of two when it makes a full attack. Its attacks are otherwise unchanged. 
- Fast Healing (Ex): The astral construct heals 2 hit points each round. It is
still immediately destroyed when it reaches 0 hit points.
Heavy Deflection (Ex): The astral construct gains a +4 deflection bonus to
Armor Class.
- Improved Buff (Ex): The astral construct gains an extra 15 hit points.
- Improved Critical (Ex): The astral construct gains the Improved Critical feat
with its slam attacks.
Improved Damage Reduction (Ex): The astral construct?s surface forms a
hard carapace and provides an additional 3 points of damage reduction (or
damage reduction 3/magic if it does not already have damage reduction).
- Improved Fly (Ex): The astral construct has physical wings and a fly speed
of 40 feet (average).
- Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, the construct must hit with its slam
attack. A construct can use this ability only on a target that is at least one
size smaller than itself. 
- Improved Swim: The astral construct is streamlined and sharklike, and gains
a swim speed of 60 feet.
- Muscle (Ex): The astral construct gains a +4 bonus to its Strength score.
- Poison Touch (Ex): If the astral construct hits with a melee attack, the
target must make an initial Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 astral construct's HD
+ astral construct's Cha modifier) or take 1 point of Constitution damage.
One minute later, the target must save again or take 1d2 points of
Constitution damage.
- Pounce (Ex): If the astral construct charges a foe, it can make a full
attack. 
- Smite (Su): Once per day the astral construct can make one attack that
deals extra damage equal to its Hit Dice.
- Trample (Ex): As a standard action during its turn each round, a Large or
larger astral construct can literally run over an opponent at least one size
smaller than itself. It merely has to move over the opponent to deal
bludgeoning damage equal to 1d8 + its Str modifier. The target can attempt
a Reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 astral construct's Hit Dice + astral construct's Str
modifier) to negate the damage, or it can instead choose to make an attack
of opportunity at a -4 penalty.
- Great Cleave (Ex): The astral construct gains the Great Cleave feat even if
it does not meet the prerequisites.

Taken from the 3.5 Constructor PrC Menu Expansion
- Improved Brawn (Ex): The astral construct deals an additional +3 points of
damage on a successful melee attack.
- Reach (Ex): The astral construct's arms elongate, which increases its reach
by 5 feet. 
- Stunning Fist (Ex): The astral construct gains the Stunning Fist feat even
if it does not meet the prerequisites.

Taken from the 3.0 Advanced Construction Feat
- Extra Arms (Ex): The construct has an additional set of arms and can make
an additional attack with an attack bonus equal to its highest attack bonus
-2. (A construct with squeeze or rend can use that ability with these arms,
as well.) This ability cannot be chosen more than once.)
- Expertise (Ex): The expertise extraordinary ability works as the Expertise
feat, and though no prerequisites are required (Int 13+), constructs do not
get the benefits from the prerequisites, either.
- Mobility(Ex): The mobility extraordinary ability works as the Mobility feat,
and though no prerequisites are required (Dex 13+, Dodge), constructs do
not get the benefits from the prerequisites, either.
- Reach(Ex): The construct's arms elongate, which increases its reach by 5
feet. (If the construct has the extra arms ability, this ability must be chosen
twice to affect both sets of arms.)
- Spike Volley (Ex):The construct can send forth a volley of 3 spikes as a
standard action. This ranged attack has a range of 120 feet with no range
increment. These spike attacks are treated as thrown weapons, so the
construct's Strength bonus is applied to damage (see page 97 of the Player's
Handbook for more on thrown weapons). Damage is 1d6 + Strength modifier
per spike. The construct can use this attack up to three times. (The
construct must have the spiked armor ability to use this attack.) This volley
can be fired in any direction (including straight up) regardless of the direction
the construct is facing.
- Tough (Ex): The construct receives 7 hit points per die, instead of 5.5 per
die.
```

*Astral Construct Menu C*

```
- Blindsight (Ex): The astral construct has blindsight out to 60 feet.
- Concussion (Sp): The astral construct can manifest concussion blast
(manifester level 7th) as a free action once per round.
- Constrict (Ex): The astral construct has the improved grab ability with its
slam attack. In addition, on a successful grapple check, the astral construct
deals damage equal to its slam damage.
- Dimension Slide (Sp): The astral construct can manifest dimension slide
(manifester level equal to Hit Dice) as a move action once per round.
- Energy Bolt (Sp): The astral construct can manifest energy bolt (manifester
level 8th) as a standard action once per round. The creator sets the energy
type that the astral construct can manifest when he creates it. 
- Extra Buff (Ex): The astral construct gains an extra 30 hit points.
- Extreme Damage Reduction (Ex): The astral construct?s surface forms hard,
armor-like plates and provides an additional 6 points of damage reduction.
- Extreme Deflection (Ex): The astral construct gains a +8 deflection bonus
to Armor Class.
- Natural Invisibility (Su): The astral construct is constantly invisible, even
when attacking. This ability is inherent and not subject to the invisibility
purge spell.
- Power Resistance (Ex): The astral construct gains power resistance equal
to 10 + its Hit Dice.
- Rend (Ex): The astral construct makes claw attacks instead of slam attacks
(it deals the same amount of damage as it would with its slam damage, but
does slashing damage instead of bludgeoning damage). An astral construct
that hits the same opponent with two claw attacks in the same round rends
its foe, which deals extra damage equal to 2d6 + 1-1/2 times its Str modifier.
- Spring Attack (Ex): The astral construct gains the Spring Attack feat.
- Whirlwind Attack (Ex): The astral construct gains the Whirlwind Attack
feat.

Taken from the 3.5 Constructor PrC Menu Expansion
- Extra Brawn (Ex): The astral construct deals an additional +5 points of
damage on a successful melee attack.
- Tail Slap (Ex): The astral construct has a tail, and it can slap one opponent
each round with its tail. A tail slap deals 2d8 points of damage plus 1-1/2
times its Strength bonus (round down) and is treated as a secondary attack.

Taken from the 3.0 Advanced Construction Feat
- Ectoplasmic Form (Sp): The construct manifests ectoplasmic form as a
standard action.
- Spike Flurry (Ex):The construct can send forth a hail of spikes as a
standard action. The attack is a cone shape with a range of 60 feet. Anyone
caught in the flurry is immediately struck by 2d4 spikes that deal 1d6 damage
each. A successful Reflex save (DC 13) halves the damage. This attack can
be used only once. (The construct must have the spiked armor ability to use
this attack.)
- Tougher (Ex): The construct receives 8.5 hit points per die, instead of 5.5
per die.
```

*Astral Construct Menu D*

```
- Greater Buff: Gains 60 hit points
- Greater Deflection: +12 Deflection bonus to Ac
- Vampiric Attack: Heals ½ of the base damage of its slam attack per attack
- Specific Energy Adaptation: Converts one type of energy to harmless light.
- Greater Fast Healing: Gains fast healing 5.
- Energy Ball: Manifester level 13; Standard action 1/round
- Whispy Form: Under the effect of Minor Concealing Amorpha
- Epic Energy Attack: gains a special weapon bursting quality (flaming burst,
etc.) on natural attacks
- 

Taken from the 3.0 Advanced Construction Feat
- Mass Concussion (Sp): The construct manifests mass concussion as a free
action 3 times per day.
- Toughest (Ex): The construct receives 10 hit points per die, instead of 5.5
per die.
- Whitefire Aura (Ex): The entire surface of the construct radiates with an
intense white-hot flame. Creatures within 5 feet of the construct take 5d4
points of damage. The fire ignites combustibles as the whitefire power. Once
activated, the aura burns for a number of rounds equal to half of the
construct's Hit Dice. Multiple selections do not stack.
```

*Astral Construct Menu E*

```
- Superior Buff: Gains 90 hit points
- Superior Deflection: +16 deflection bonus to AC
- Energy Adaptation: Converts energy to harmless light
- Superior Fast Healing: Gains fast healing 10.
- Energy Ball: Manifester level 13; free action 1/round
- Energy Wave: Manifester level 17; standard action 1/round
- Incorporeal Form: The astral construct is incorporeal but may strike
corporeal creatures with its slam attacks as touch attacks.  Loses strength
score except when fighting other incorporeal creatures.  Gains a deflection
bonus equal to one half the manifesting level which stacks with menu choices
that increase the deflection bonus.
- Vorpal Strike: Slam attacks become slashing claw attacks with the vorpal
property.
```

*Astral Construct Menu F*

```
- Improved Whispy Form: Under the effect of Concealing Amorpha
- True Deflection: +20 deflection bonus to AC
- Supreme Buff: Gains 120 hit points
- Energy Conversion: as per the power
- Energy Wave: manifester level 17; free action 1/round
- Supreme Regeneration: gains Regeneration 5.  When reduced to 0 hit points
just disabled.  
- Reddopsi: Constant affect
- Draining Strikes: Attacks inflict 1d4 negative levels (Fort Save DC 10 + ½
HD of Construct + constructs Charisma modifier to remove negative levels after
24 hours)
```

_These are compiled from the various sources (3.5 Constructor list, Augment Construct feat from 3.0, base list) and the last three I created for Epic Level Astral Constructs.  Placed in code for similar reasons._

Instead it only took up total a scrolltime of about 3 pages.  Heheh...


----------



## Isida Kep'Tukari (Oct 30, 2004)

You've put a great deal of thought into this Ferrix, and I approve of all of your suggestions.


----------



## Zack2216 (Oct 30, 2004)

Well, Su'ryuu is posted in the alternate's forum. Thanks for converting sadism. Also, i'll have to look into that 1/round regain psionic focus feat.


----------



## Ferrix (Oct 30, 2004)

Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> You've put a great deal of thought into this Ferrix, and I approve of all of your suggestions.




Yay! *HUGE HUG*


----------



## Isida Kep'Tukari (Oct 30, 2004)

Aww...


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## TheOneAboveAll (Oct 31, 2004)

Isida,

I was wondering if you could get me that information about the divinely infused?


----------



## Isida Kep'Tukari (Oct 31, 2004)

One - The PDF for Reqiuem isn't too expensive, if you want to get it yourself.  It's under $10 and then I won't have to break any copyright laws.


----------



## TheOneAboveAll (Oct 31, 2004)

Is it worth it?  Is there more than what I asked you for that might interest me?


----------



## Ferrix (Oct 31, 2004)

Isida, is it 75% hit points after the first level like normal in your games?


----------



## Ferrix (Oct 31, 2004)

The Architect up in the RG.  If anyone has any suggestions on more ways to optimize Power Selection, Feat Selection, Equipment, etc. let me know.  Background, etc. forthcoming eventually.


----------



## Kangaxx (Oct 31, 2004)

Pilmer is also up in the Rogue's Gallery, although he's still missing a spellbook and an awful lot of flavor text.  I actually have most of it ready, but I'm done typing for tonight.  Anyone want the new skill spreadsheet?  It's a good bit simpler than the old one.


----------



## Wrahn (Oct 31, 2004)

There is no provision in the standard rules for making magic items that give non-enhancement bonuses to stats.  I would strongly advise against allowing them and here is the reason why:

Belt of Epic Strength: +12 Enhancement bonus to strength, 1,440,000gp  

Belt of Not Epic Strength: +6 Morale Bonus to Strength, + 6 Enhancement bonus to strength.  (6^2 x 2,000 x 2 + 6^2 x 2,000 x 1.5) 126,000gp

They do the same thing, but one is less than a 10th the cost of the other.


----------



## Kangaxx (Oct 31, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> There is no provision in the standard rules for making magic items that give non-enhancement bonuses to stats.  I would strongly advise against allowing them and here is the reason why:
> 
> Belt of Epic Strength: +12 Enhancement bonus to strength, 1,440,000gp
> 
> ...




That's a funny rationale, since I got the idea from your cloak of resistance +15 that costs less than a cloak +6.  But I'll edit the bonuses away tomorrow.


----------



## Wrahn (Oct 31, 2004)

Kangaxx said:
			
		

> That's a funny rationale, since I got the idea from your cloak of resistance +15 that costs less than a cloak +6.  But I'll edit the bonuses away tomorrow.




Ah, yes, I even felt a little guilty about that.  But, there are provisions in the rules for making non-standard bonuses to saves and bonuses to armor class.


----------



## TheOneAboveAll (Oct 31, 2004)

Isida,
I got Requiem for a god.  Pretty interesting stuff.  I will be reworking my character and should have a preliminary sheet up on monday.


----------



## Isida Kep'Tukari (Oct 31, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Ah, yes, I even felt a little guilty about that.  But, there are provisions in the rules for making non-standard bonuses to saves and bonuses to armor class.



  That's very naughty Wrahn.  I think I feel tears forming...     

One - Cool, looking forward to seeing your characters.


----------



## Wrahn (Oct 31, 2004)

Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> That's very naughty Wrahn.  I think I feel tears forming...




You know, I went out for breakfast this morning and I was considering whether or not I should be feeling guilty about a magic item.  So I came back and changed it.

Then I read this post.  Karma, I am telling you.

I should also note that I switched out two levels of bard for two levels of Holy Liberator  and I have about 150k to spend now.


----------



## Ferrix (Oct 31, 2004)

So I guess no non-standard stat bonuses eh? Bummer...


----------



## Isida Kep'Tukari (Oct 31, 2004)

It's the endless stacking for small amount of cash that makes me weep.  So if you can find a way to do that doesn't involve buying 20 different types of +2 bonuses at 4,000gp, then I'd be happier.


----------



## Ferrix (Oct 31, 2004)

Any suggestions on my character Wrahn, you might notice something I missed.


----------



## Ferrix (Oct 31, 2004)

Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> It's the endless stacking for small amount of cash that makes me weep.  So if you can find a way to do that doesn't involve buying 20 different types of +2 bonuses at 4,000gp, then I'd be happier.




Well actually I was just going to go for a +6 Insight bonus to Int and a +6 Enhancement bonus to Int.  That one item is crushing the gold out of me.  I wanted to make a piece or two of my equipment a tattoo like item but I couldn't afford it.


----------



## Isida Kep'Tukari (Oct 31, 2004)

How about a pair of +5s with the Tome and the Headband?  Heck of a lot cheaper and nearly as effective...


----------



## Ferrix (Oct 31, 2004)

Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> How about a pair of +5s with the Tome and the Headband?  Heck of a lot cheaper and nearly as effective...




Do you mean a +5 Insight and a +5 enhancement, plus the Tome +5 Inherent?

Sorta confused.


----------



## Wrahn (Oct 31, 2004)

Ferrix said:
			
		

> Well actually I was just going to go for a +6 Insight bonus to Int and a +6 Enhancement bonus to Int.  That one item is crushing the gold out of me.  I wanted to make a piece or two of my equipment a tattoo like item but I couldn't afford it.




Yeah, 4.3 million gold pieces doesn't go as far as it used to.  

Let me look over your character and see if I can see anything.


----------



## Isida Kep'Tukari (Oct 31, 2004)

I meant the +5 inherant with the tome and a +5 enhancement with the headband.


----------



## Ferrix (Oct 31, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Yeah, 4.3 million gold pieces doesn't go as far as it used to.
> 
> Let me look over your character and see if I can see anything.




Heheh...


----------



## Wrahn (Oct 31, 2004)

Yeah the Tomes and Manuals give Inherent Bonuses, same bonuses that wishing for higher stats delivers.


----------



## Ferrix (Oct 31, 2004)

Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> I meant the +5 inherant with the tome and a +5 enhancement with the headband.




Already have the tome.


----------



## Wrahn (Oct 31, 2004)

Just glancing over the items, you forgot to add the material cost for the continuous True Sight, (250 x 100)

I would strongly suggest you reconsider the Amulet of Retribution.  (It gives a +2 Sacred Bonus to Armor Class and splits melee damage between the wearer and the attacker evenly for 56k) it is grossly the effect itself should not exist.  Since it is based on the shield other spell which offers a save, at the very least the item should offer a save to the victim of the item.  (Which should be around DC 13 or 14)  


Also you suffer from the Non-standard bonuses to saves which drives Isida close to crying.

I would consider making your armor clothes and buying the +8 armor from the armor of bracers.  (+1 Clothes of Heavy Fortification, 36,000)

Gotta go at this point, look it over a little more later.


----------



## Ferrix (Oct 31, 2004)

Psionic True Seeing does not have a material component.

I know you don't like the retributive amulet, but if Isida's allowing it as it is, I will take it.

You also realize even with the non-standard save bonuses, they are still sometimes as much as ten less than your characters save bonuses who does have some non-standard save bonuses.

Wouldn't buying the bracers of armor +8 and the shirt of armor +1 fortification cost me more than just the mithril shirt +1 heavy fortification?


----------



## Kangaxx (Oct 31, 2004)

I'm recalculating my items without the abnormal bonuses, and I was wondering what our guidelines are for having a happy DM.  Should I remove all nonstandard bonuses (saves, AC)?  Is Lucky Joe ok without the stat bonus? (+2 competence to attack rolls, saves, skills, ability checks, and +2 caster level)


----------



## Isida Kep'Tukari (Oct 31, 2004)

You don't have to remove all non-standard bonuses.  Just go with this guideline - If it's cool keep it.  If it's _way_ too cool, ditch it.  I don't mind if you have one or two with odd bonuses, I just don't want to see them _everywhere_.  Okiday?


----------



## Kangaxx (Oct 31, 2004)

Sounds good to me, and remarkably similar to my dming style.


----------



## Ferrix (Oct 31, 2004)

Had a question about pilmer, where'd he get immunity to all forms of energy, can't find it in his equipment list or anything like that.

Same question regarding the immunity to mind-affecting things.


----------



## Kangaxx (Oct 31, 2004)

It's from the spells he casts everyday, Energy Immunity and Mind Blank.  I explained it in the notes at the bottom.


----------



## Ferrix (Oct 31, 2004)

ah... gotta read to the bottom...


----------



## Wrahn (Nov 1, 2004)

Isida,

If you are allowing the amulet of Retribution, how much would an item cost that would make a person immune to the effect?

Also while we are on the subject, do you allow the spell Mantle of Egregious Might (BoEM1 pg 22) in your game?  I would suggest you disallow it, but I am compelled to ask.


----------



## Wrahn (Nov 1, 2004)

Kangaxx-

All skill bonuses that the DMG allows you to make are competence bonuses.  Competence bonuses do not stack.

Also, maybe I am dense, but why does your wizard have a bunch of druid (only) spells memorized?

If you are looking for the cost of getting more spells in your spellbook, they talk about it a little in the DMG (I can't find it in the SRD) and have the base of 50gp per level of spell you want to copy from another mage.  (It is a lot cheaper than buying scrolls).


----------



## Ferrix (Nov 1, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Kangaxx-
> 
> All skill bonuses that the DMG allows you to make are competence bonuses.  Competence bonuses do not stack.
> 
> ...




I was wondering about those druid spells also.  Also note that the DMG guidelines are guidelines, not hard facts, so if you want insight bonuses into skills, or other types I'd imagine you could get them at x2 price.

For scribing spells into your spellbook it gets expensive really fast.  To get access to a spell from another mage it's 50gp per level of the spell, or 25gp times the spell level times the caster level for a scroll (i.e. cheaper for 1st level spells), plus 100gp per level to scribe it into your own spellbook (as each page is 100gp and it takes one page per level, even 0 level spells take a page).  Each non-magical spell book has 100 pages, costs 15gp, weighs 3 lbs.  You might want to invest in a spellbook that is really hard to be destroyed (energy immunities, etc.), I forget but there's a great d20 book out there that gives all kinds of costs and stuff for making spiffy custom spellbooks.

Cheapest cost per level to add additional spells into your spellbook
0th level: you have them all supposedly
1st level: 125gp [25gp (scroll) + 100gp (1 pg)]
2nd level: 300gp [100gp (borrow) + 200gp (2 pgs)]
3rd level: 450gp [150gp (borrow) + 300gp (3 pgs)]
4th level: 600gp [200gp (borrow) + 400gp (4 pgs)]
5th level: 750gp [250gp (borrow) + 500gp (5 pgs)]
6th level: 900gp [300gp (borrow) + 600gp (6 pgs)]
7th level: 1050gp [350gp (borrow) + 700gp (7 pgs)]
8th level: 1200gp [400gp (borrow) + 800gp (8 pgs)]
9th level: 1350gp [450gp (borrow) + 900gp (9 pgs)]


----------



## Ferrix (Nov 1, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Isida,
> 
> If you are allowing the amulet of Retribution, how much would an item cost that would make a person immune to the effect?
> 
> Also while we are on the subject, do you allow the spell Mantle of Egregious Might (BoEM1 pg 22) in your game?  I would suggest you disallow it, but I am compelled to ask.




This is our window into non-enhancement type based stat bonuses, don't ban it *sniff sniff*

You feel threatened by someone who'll cut your melee damage in half and kick it back at you? (j/king)


----------



## Wrahn (Nov 1, 2004)

Ferrix-

A few notes on your items

Amulet of the Great Mind (Power Preservation (-2pp), DC?s +2) (147,000gp)
-Amulet of the Arcanist (50,000) +2 DC on spells

Sacred Mithril Shirt +1 of Heavy Fortification (+5 sacred bonus to saves) (105,650gp)
-Adding sacred bonus to armor is suspect.  It would usually cost bonus slots (ie +3 bonus).  I would move the +5 sacred bonus somewhere else, but I wouldn’t have too big of a problem with it either.  It is just “cleaner” from a rules perspective.


Ring of the Shattering Mind (manifester level +3, evasion) (172,500gp)
-Just out of curiosity, where did you come up with the 25,000gp cost for evasion?


Shoes of Slippery Motion (continuous hustle, freedom of movement) (186,000gp)
-I am not sure if you can make hustle continuous.  It does not have a duration.  (7x4x2,000x1.5 = 84,000 + 2x4x2,000x4x1.5 = 96,000 = 180,000)


----------



## Kangaxx (Nov 1, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Kangaxx-
> 
> All skill bonuses that the DMG allows you to make are competence bonuses.  Competence bonuses do not stack.
> 
> ...




I only have a 3.0 copy of the DMG, where all the items provide circumstance bonuses to skills.  But checking the SRD, I see that you're right, they changed all of those.  <sigh>  Back to the drawing board once more.

The druid spells are a placeholder left over from Isida's character, since I haven't typed up Pilmer's spells yet.  

I probably will need to buy some extra spells for him.  Thanks for the chart Ferrix, it should be handy.

Edit: What is Mantle of Egregious Might?  Are there any other spells from the BoEM that I really ought to be aware of?


----------



## Wrahn (Nov 1, 2004)

Mantle of Egregious Might is an 8th level Wizard/Sorceror Spell.  It is not to bad on the surface but once you think about it probably should not be permitted at epic levels.  It adds a +4 Luck bonus to Saves, to hit and a few other things, most importantly to all ability scores.  It lasts 10 minutes per level.  Again at 15th level it is cool but not game breaking at 30th level, everyone will have it.


----------



## Ferrix (Nov 1, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Amulet of the Great Mind (Power Preservation (-2pp), DC?s +2) (147,000gp)
> -Amulet of the Arcanist (50,000) +2 DC on spells




Torc of Power Preservation (-1pp) 36,000gp*1.5 + the Psionic Equivalent of the Amulet 50,000gp = 104,000gp



> Sacred Mithril Shirt +1 of Heavy Fortification (+5 sacred bonus to saves) (105,650gp)
> -Adding sacred bonus to armor is suspect.  It would usually cost bonus slots (ie +3 bonus).  I would move the +5 sacred bonus somewhere else, but I wouldn?t have too big of a problem with it either.  It is just ?cleaner? from a rules perspective.




Mithril Shirt +1 of Heavy Fortification 37,100gp*1.5 + (+5) sacred bonus to saves 50,000gp = 105650.  There are abilities that can be added to armor which which just have a gold piece cost.  In this case the ability is more expensive than the armor, and by the standard rules, the lower price item is multiplied by 1.5.



> Ring of the Shattering Mind (manifester level +3, evasion) (172,500gp)
> -Just out of curiosity, where did you come up with the 25,000gp cost for evasion?




Ring of Evasion



> Shoes of Slippery Motion (continuous hustle, freedom of movement) (186,000gp)
> -I am not sure if you can make hustle continuous.  It does not have a duration.  (7x4x2,000x1.5 = 84,000 + 2x4x2,000x4x1.5 = 96,000 = 180,000)




Freedom of Movement is taken as a verbatim price from the ring at 44,000gp.  For hustle I had actually just taken the cost you had listed for haste, basically figuring they were about the same thing, but in this secondary analysis, I missed that you can get it as a 2nd level power at level 4 (psychic warrior).  Thus Hustle =2x4x2000x4 = 64000gp (where'd that secondary *1.5 come in?).  So in the end the shoes would cost 64,000gp + 44,000gp*1.5 = 130,000gp.  I overpriced them.  Huzzah.


----------



## Wrahn (Nov 2, 2004)

Ferrix said:
			
		

> Torc of Power Preservation (-1pp) 36,000gp*1.5 + the Psionic Equivalent of the Amulet 50,000gp = 104,000gp




I was just giving you the name of the item



			
				Ferrix said:
			
		

> Mithril Shirt +1 of Heavy Fortification 37,100gp*1.5 + (+5) sacred bonus to saves 50,000gp = 105650.  There are abilities that can be added to armor which which just have a gold piece cost.  In this case the ability is more expensive than the armor, and by the standard rules, the lower price item is multiplied by 1.5.




That my friend is a perversion of the rules if I have ever seen it.  For instance, Spell Resistance 19 if you bought your way would cost 70,000 + 55,650 = 125,650.  If you bought it according to the rules as outlined in the DMG and the ELH it would cost 1,210,000 gold



			
				Ferrix said:
			
		

> Freedom of Movement is taken as a verbatim price from the ring at 44,000gp.  For hustle I had actually just taken the cost you had listed for haste, basically figuring they were about the same thing, but in this secondary analysis, I missed that you can get it as a 2nd level power at level 4 (psychic warrior).  Thus Hustle =2x4x2000x4 = 64000gp (where'd that secondary *1.5 come in?).  So in the end the shoes would cost 64,000gp + 44,000gp*1.5 = 130,000gp.  I overpriced them.  Huzzah.




Cost for the Ring of Freedom of Movement is wrong for a wonderous item (or alternatively just wrong) 7x4x2,000x1.5 (the 1.5 is for the duration)


----------



## Kangaxx (Nov 2, 2004)

I've been looking over the other characters for inspiration, and had a question about Rahveon's items.  How did you get clothing enchanted with armor abilities?  Those would be remarkably popular with arcane casters if allowed.


----------



## Kangaxx (Nov 2, 2004)

There's an item in my 3.0 dmg that appears to have vanished from 3.5: Boccob's Blessed Book.  It's a small book (12"x8"X1")  that can contain up to 45 spells of any level, priced at 9,500.  Since 45 isn't many for a high level caster, I was thinking a twice as thick version for 19,000 would be reasonable. Boccob's Tome, perhaps?


----------



## Wrahn (Nov 2, 2004)

Kangaxx said:
			
		

> I've been looking over the other characters for inspiration, and had a question about Rahveon's items.  How did you get clothing enchanted with armor abilities?  Those would be remarkably popular with arcane casters if allowed.




The argument is that clothing is armor with no maximum dex mod and no armor bonus.  This is supported by the Magic Vestment spell which allows an enhancement bonus to be placed on armor including clothing.


----------



## Wrahn (Nov 2, 2004)

Kangaxx said:
			
		

> There's an item in my 3.0 dmg that appears to have vanished from 3.5: Boccob's Blessed Book.  It's a small book (12"x8"X1")  that can contain up to 45 spells of any level, priced at 9,500.  Since 45 isn't many for a high level caster, I was thinking a twice as thick version for 19,000 would be reasonable. Boccob's Tome, perhaps?




The Blessed Book is in the SRD and on page 249 of the DMG 3.5 as Boccob's Blessed Book (which is what I described earlier)


----------



## Isida Kep'Tukari (Nov 2, 2004)

Then how about you calculate it as a permanent Magic Vestment effect?  The idea of enhancing clothing makes me weep, as does permanent _haste_ and _hustle_ effects.  Surely you can find some armor or effect in another source (like the sidebar in A&E about adding armor qualities to _bracers of armor_) that would also suit?


----------



## TheOneAboveAll (Nov 2, 2004)

Here is the first draft, a working draft.  I just wanted to get the main ideas down for all to see.  His main focus is as a warrior, spellcasting and healing are secondary concerns to him.  I would appreciate any suggestions.  History is to come as well.  Also two more domains, skills among other things.


Father Gregori Vanderhaus "Demonbane"
Annointed as Scion of the Phoenix 
Human Divinely infused Half Celestial Male Saint
Paladin 5, Cleric 1, Fist of Raziel 6, Warpriest 4, Contemplative 6
Alignment: Lawful Good
Patron Deity:  Pelor
Region: 
Height: 
Weight:
Hair: 
Eyes: 
Age: 

Str: 31 (+10)       [12 base, + 4 race, + 5 manual, + 1 lvl, + 6 headband, + 2 divine infused] 
Dex: 25 (++7)     [10 base, +2 race, +5 manual, +6 headband, +2 divinely infused]
Con: 26 (+8)       [12 base, +4 race, +5 manual, +1 level, +2 saint, +4 divinely infused ] 
Int: 17 (+3)         [10 base, +2 race, +5 tome] 
Wis: 40 (+15)      [16 base, + 4 race, +2 saint, +5 tome, +3 lvl, +6 headband, +4 divinely infused] 
Cha: 42 (+16)     [13 base, +4 race, +4 saint, +5 tome, +6 headband, +8 epic rod of splendor, +6 divinely infused] 

Class and Racial Abilities:


Half Celestial
AC +1
Special Attacks:  
Daylight (Su): Half-celestials can use a daylight effect (as the spell) at will.  Smite Evil (Su): Once per day a half-celestial can make a normal melee attack to deal  +20 
against an evil foe.
Spell-Like Abilities:    
Protection from evil 3/day, bless, Aid, detect evil, Cure serious wounds, neutralize poison, Holy smite, remove disease, Dispel evil, Holy word, Holy aura 3/day, hallow, Mass charm monster, Summon monster IX (celestials only), Resurrection  
Special Qualities: 
Darkvision out to 60 feet, Immunity to disease, Resistance to acid 10, cold 10, and electricity 10. Damage reduction: 10/magic, A half-celestial’s natural weapons are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction, Spell resistance 35, +4 racial bonus on Fortitude saves against poison.

Saint
AC: insight bonus equal to wis bonus
SA
Holy power; the save DC's of any and all of the saint's special attacks, including spells, spell like, super natural and extraordinary abilities increase by +2, Holy touch;  A saint's melee attacks with any weapon or unarmed deal an additional 1d6 points of holy damage against evil creatures, and 1d8 vs undead and evil outsiders.  Any creature that strikes a saint with a natural attack takes holy damage as if struck by the saint.
Spell like abilities:
@ will guidance, resistance, virtue and bless.
SQ
DR 10/evil, Fast healing 10 hp/rnd, Immune[acid, cold, electricity and petrification], lowlight and 60 foot darkvision, protective aura[nimbus of light radius of 20 feet.  Acts as x2 strength mc vs evil and as a lesser globe of invulnerability], +10 fire resistance, tongues[speak with any creature with a language]

Paladin
Aura of Good (Ex): The power of a paladin’s aura of good (see the detect good spell) is equal to her paladin level, Detect Evil (Sp): At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell, Smite Evil (Su): +9 att/+5 dam 3/d, Divine Grace (Su), Lay on Hands (Su):  45 hp/day to heal or to harm the undead, Aura of Courage (Su): Beginning at 3rd level, a paladin is immune to fear (magical or otherwise). Each ally within 10 feet of her gains a +4 morale bonus on saving throws against fear effects, Divine Health (Ex): immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases,Turn Undead (Su):

Fist of Raziel
magic circle vs evil, smite evil 4/day [good aligned, confirming crits, holy +2d6 vs evil, fiend smite +2d8 vs evil outsiders/undead]  sanctify martial strike, sunder evil item, 

Contemplative:
divine health, 2 prestige domains, slippery mind[one extra attempt to save vs mental/mind attacks], divine wholeness[heal self of 12 hp/day], divine body[immune to poisons of all kinds]

Warpriest
2 prestige domains, rally, inflame, healing circle





Hit Dice:  8d8+5d8+11d10+6d6
HP: 204+240  444
AC:  (+7 Dex, + armor, )
Init: +7 (+7 Dex)
Speed: 30ft 

Saves:
Fortitude 45  [16 base, +8 con, +5 epic, +16 paladin]
Reflex     32   [4 base, +7 dex, +5 epic, +16 paladin]
Will         45  [9 base, +15 wis, +5 epic, +16 paladin]

BAB: +18/+13/+8/+3
Melee Atk: NYLA
Ranged Atk: 

Skills:

Concentration (Con), 
Craft (Int), 
Diplomacy (Cha), 
Heal (Wis), 
Knowledge (arcana) (Int), 
Knowledge (history) (Int), 
Knowledge (religion) (Int), 
Knowledge (the planes) (Int), 
Profession (Wis), 
Spellcraft (Int). 
Handle Animal (Cha), 
Ride (Dex), 
Sense Motive (Wis).

Feats:
combat casting, leadership, power attack, servant of heaven, purify spell, divine might, extra turning
epic divine might, improved spell capacity x2, positive enery aura
Languages: Common, celestial, ignan, draconic, infernal

Spells Prepared 
Progression [6/ 9+1/ 9+1/ 9+1/ 8+1/ 8+1/ 7+1/ 7+1/ 6+1/ 6+1/ 3/ 3]
DC's 0 = 25
0 hygeine, keep dry, 
1 bless, detect chaos, divine favor, doom, hide from undead, twi light luck, divine inspiration, ray of hope
2 aid, status, consecrate, hold person, lesser restoration, status, zone of truth, elation
3 create food and water, daylight, dispel magic, prayer, remove curse, searing light, speak with dead, hammer of righteousness, 
4 death ward, divination, divine power, restoration, greater luminous armor, sunmantle, greater status, 
5 greater command, commune, flamestrike, hallow, righteous might, raise dead, plane shift, scrying
6 banishment, greater dispel magic, harm, heal, heroes feast, undeath to death
7 destruction, dictum, holy word, ressurection, greater restoration, regenerate, greater scrying
8 earthquake, firestorm, holy aura, greater planar ally, discern location, last judgement
9 mass heal, implosion, miracle, true ressurection, summon monster 9, sublime revelry[greater aspect fo the diety, armegeddon]
10 purified end to strife x2, purified storm of vengence
11 purified storm of vengence 



GOOD DOMAIN
Granted Power: You cast good spells at +1 caster level.
Good Domain Spells
1 Protection from Evil: +2 to AC and saves, counter mind control, hedge out elementals and outsiders.
2 Aid: +1 on attack rolls, +1 on saves against fear, 1d8 temporary hp +1/level (max +10).
3 Magic Circle against Evil: As protection spells, but 10-ft. radius and 10 min./level.
4 Holy Smite: Damages and blinds evil creatures.
5 Dispel Evil: +4 bonus against attacks by evil creatures.
6 Blade Barrier: Wall of blades deals 1d6/level damage.
7 Holy Word F: Kills, paralyzes, slows, or deafens nongood subjects.
8 Holy Aura: +4 to AC, +4 resistance, and SR 25 against evil spells.
9 Summon Monster IX*: Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you.
*Cast as a good spell only.


HEALING DOMAIN
Granted Power: You cast healing spells at +1 caster level.
Healing Domain Spells
1 Cure Light Wounds: Cures 1d8 damage +1/level (max +5).
2 Cure Moderate Wounds: Cures 2d8 damage +1/level (max +10).
3 Cure Serious Wounds: Cures 3d8 damage +1/level (max +15).
4 Cure Critical Wounds: Cures 4d8 damage +1/level (max +20).
5 Cure Light Wounds, Mass: Cures 1d8 damage +1/level (max +25) for many creatures.
6 Heal: Cures 10 points/level of damage, all diseases and mental conditions.
7 Regenerate: Subject’s severed limbs grow back, cures 4d8 damage +1/level (max +35).
8 Cure Critical Wounds, Mass: Cures 4d8 damage +1/level (max +40) for many creatures.
9 Heal, Mass: As heal, but with several subjects.




STRENGTH DOMAIN
Granted Power: You can perform a feat of strength as a supernatural ability. You gain an enhancement bonus to Strength equal to your cleric level. Activating the power is a free action, the power lasts 1 round, and it is usable once per day.
Strength Domain Spells
1 Enlarge Person: Humanoid creature doubles in size.
2 Bull’s Strength: Subject gains +4 to Str for 1 min./level.
3 Magic Vestment: Armor or shield gains +1 enhancement per four levels.
4 Spell Immunity: Subject is immune to one spell per four levels.
5 Righteous Might: Your size increases, and you gain combat bonuses.
6 Stoneskin M: Ignore 10 points of damage per attack.
7 Grasping Hand: Large hand provides cover, pushes, or grapples.
8 Clenched Fist: Large hand provides cover, pushes, or attacks your foes.
9 Crushing Hand: Large hand provides cover, pushes, or crushes your foes.

SUN DOMAIN
Granted Power: Once per day, you can perform a greater turning against undead in place of a regular turning. The greater turning is like a normal turning except that the undead creatures that would be turned are destroyed instead.
Sun Domain Spells
1 Endure Elements: Exist comfortably in hot or cold environments.
2 Heat Metal: Make metal so hot it damages those who touch it.
3 Searing Light: Ray deals 1d8/two levels, more against undead.
4 Fire Shield: Creatures attacking you take fire damage; you’re protected from heat or cold.
5 Flame Strike: Smite foes with divine fire (1d6/level damage).
6 Fire Seeds: Acorns and berries become grenades and bombs.
7 Sunbeam: Beam blinds and deals 4d6 damage.
8 Sunburst: Blinds all within 10 ft., deals 6d6 damage.
9 Prismatic Sphere: As prismatic wall, but surrounds on all sides.





Armor +10 [called, sacred, soulfire, undead disrupting]
large mithral Shield +6 [called, animated, sacred]

Weapons
Nyla
Nyla, the Holy One, lawful good intelligent bastard sword, 17th level: hardness 20, hp 21;Communication: Telepathy; Perception: Blindsense 60ft., and Hearing; 

Abilities: Int12, Wis 12, Cha 15.

Saves
Fort +10 +[10 base, +2 enhancement, +2 for hardness]
Ref +8 [+10 base, +2 enhancement]
Will +7 [+10 base, +2 enhancement, +1 Wis]

Skills:
Knowledge (religion) +21 [20 ranks, +1 Int]
Knowledge (the planes) +21 [20 ranks, +1 Int]
Diplomacy +22 [20 ranks, +2 Cha]

Feats
1st – Weapon enhancement (+1)
2nd – Weapon ability (+1 equivalent)
4th – Weapon ability (additional +1 equivalent)
6th – Weapon enhancement (additional +1)
8th – Bestow Feat (Can bestow Blindsense 60ft. on wielder)
10th – Weapon enhancement (additional +1)
12th – Weapon ability (ghost touch)
14th – Weapon enhancement (additional +1)
16th – Weapon ability (undead bane)


Nyla is an adamantine +4 holy ghost touch undead bane bastard sword. She can bestow blindsense 60 ft. on her wielder, as well as cast the following spells the indicated number of times per day.

2/day – cure light wounds, death ward, detect undead, disrupt undead, disrupting weapon, hygiene, searing light
1/day – consecrate, cure minor wounds, cure moderate wounds, cure serious wounds, daylight, divine power, eagle’s splendor, expeditious retreat, heal, holy word, lesser restoration, lethality denied (BoEM III), mass cure critical wounds, mass cure light wounds, ray of hope (BoED), resurrection, restoration, undeath to death

Nyla costs 8,035gp and 35,488xp to create. 

Nyla has an elegant long blade, extremely sharp, with an exaggerated point. Her hilt is seemingly made of gold, and seems to be a pair of arms, their elbows clasping a diamond for the pommel, their arms forming the crossguard, and the hands clasping crystal suns at the end of the quillions. 

Nyla is as calm as a priestess with a voice like a lullaby. She was forged in ancient times as a tool to combat undead, and takes her purpose very seriously. She tries to convince her bearer that his time would be better served ridding the world of undead, using her quiet, impeccable logic to convince them. In the hand of someone evil, she tends to make their lives as terrible as possible, in hopes they will throw her away for a champion of good to find. 
Bow of Solars 100 100
Rings of Iron golemn fists 20 000

manuals/tomes 6*+6 822 000
rod of epic splender 297 000
headband of perfect excellence 180 000

ring of fire elemental command 200 000
rod of invulnerability  600 000
globe of Kalias 1 500 each
gauntlet of Arthanath[BoEM 3] 5 500
elemental gems 2 250 each
Quiver of Anariel [+5 cold iron arrows] 128 000+4 005
handy haversack 2 000
phylactery of faithfulness 1 000
phylactery of undead turning 11 000
greater prayer beads 95 800
staff of life 155 000
caster level +5 375 000


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## Wrahn (Nov 2, 2004)

Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> Then how about you calculate it as a permanent Magic Vestment effect?  The idea of enhancing clothing makes me weep, as does permanent _haste_ and _hustle_ effects.  Surely you can find some armor or effect in another source (like the sidebar in A&E about adding armor qualities to _bracers of armor_) that would also suit?




Just for reference, the Hustle effect is not permanent, it is a cast at will effect.  Not that it makes a tremendous difference since it is a power that is automatically quickened.

So is it the combination of the two or would you prefer me not to have either?

I do not have Armor and Equipment.  How much would Bracers of armor +1 with heavy fortification cost?  Also how much would Bracers of Armor +8 of Heavy Fortification cost?  (Heavy Fortification is a +5 effect)


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## Ferrix (Nov 2, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> I was just giving you the name of the item
> 
> That my friend is a perversion of the rules if I have ever seen it.  For instance, Spell Resistance 19 if you bought your way would cost 70,000 + 55,650 = 125,650.  If you bought it according to the rules as outlined in the DMG and the ELH it would cost 1,210,000 gold
> 
> Cost for the Ring of Freedom of Movement is wrong for a wonderous item (or alternatively just wrong) 7x4x2,000x1.5 (the 1.5 is for the duration)




I really don't know where you get your numbers Wrahn.  Cost for the Ring of Freedom of Movement is set at 44,000gp in the DMG and there is no errata about it anywhere.  Sometimes items (even ones specifically listed within the core books) don't turn out to be the same cost they would as the *suggested guidelines*.  Thus I imagine the fine people at wizards have at least a basic idea of what is going on.  Don't fix what's not broken.

Actually Ring of Freedom of Movement is 40,000gp... my bad.

Other examples of differences: Boots of Teleportation (list price 49,000gp; guideline price 54,000gp), Boots of Levitation (list price 7,500gp; guideline price 24,000gp), and so on.


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## Ferrix (Nov 2, 2004)

*DMG pg. 285; Table 7-33: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values*


			
				DMG said:
			
		

> Spell Resistance 10,000gp per point over SR 12; SR 13 minimum.




Thus: SR 19 costs (19-12)x10000gp = 70,000gp
Where'd you get that number that stretched into the millions?


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## Ferrix (Nov 2, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> I do not have Armor and Equipment.  How much would Bracers of armor +1 with heavy fortification cost?  Also how much would Bracers of Armor +8 of Heavy Fortification cost?  (Heavy Fortification is a +5 effect)




Bracers of Armor +8 of Heavy Fortification cost probably the same as Bracers of Epic Armor +13 (as heavy fort is a +5 effect) which would be a rough 1,690,000gp


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## Kangaxx (Nov 2, 2004)

Ah, didn't see the book in there since they changed the name.  I just bought 2 of them for simplicity's sake.

Pilmer has been updated and reposted, hopefully with finalized equipment.  

Oneaboveall, I can't give much in the way of constructive ideas since I don't have a lot of the books you used to make the character, but I do have a few ideas/questions:

Your sword only being a +4 could be a problem for an epic melee character.  A lot of epic monsters have DR X/epic.  Perhaps you could pay to have it enchanted with a higher bonus, or get the 3.0 ELH version of penetrating attack which gave your weapons +2 enhancement for penetrating DR.

How did you get so many epic feats with only 22 hit dice?

In your gear section, you list 6 +6 books (which shouldn't exist) but you only have +5s on your stats.  I assume this is because you changed them during character design, but forgot to alter the bonus and price in the listing at the bottom, so you should get about 140,000 gp back.


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## Kangaxx (Nov 2, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> The argument is that clothing is armor with no maximum dex mod and no armor bonus.  This is supported by the Magic Vestment spell which allows an enhancement bonus to be placed on armor including clothing.




If the clothing counted as armor, then it would negate monk bonuses.  I think that would defeat the purpose of getting it instead of armor for you.

Armor special abilities on bracers would be just as unfair as armor bonuses on clothing in my opinion.  Part of the tradeoff of being a monk or arcane caster is losing access to those abilities, (a big part of the tradeoff of being a monk,) and putting those abilities on non-armor items removes those penalties, at no cost to the character.


----------



## Wrahn (Nov 2, 2004)

Ferrix said:
			
		

> I really don't know where you get your numbers Wrahn.  Cost for the Ring of Freedom of Movement is set at 44,000gp in the DMG and there is no errata about it anywhere.  Sometimes items (even ones specifically listed within the core books) don't turn out to be the same cost they would as the *suggested guidelines*.  Thus I imagine the fine people at wizards have at least a basic idea of what is going on.  Don't fix what's not broken.
> 
> Actually Ring of Freedom of Movement is 40,000gp... my bad.
> 
> Other examples of differences: Boots of Teleportation (list price 49,000gp; guideline price 54,000gp), Boots of Levitation (list price 7,500gp; guideline price 24,000gp), and so on.





Arbitrary changing of bonus is just that: arbitrary.  There can be 100,000 reasons for it, perhaps they feel that a single item with freedom of movement should be cheaper, perhaps they feel that a ring should be cheaper.

The point is, unless we are the game master, we can not make the arbitrary judgements and are left with the guidelines.



			
				Ferrix said:
			
		

> Thus: SR 19 costs (19-12)x10000gp = 70,000gp
> Where'd you get that number that stretched into the millions?




Spell Resistance 19 in the DMG is a +5 Bonus when applied to armor, bringing the total modifier over +10 making it epic and bringing the cost up to 1,210,000.  In non-epic circumstances it would usually be cheaper than the wondrous items, but with the epic rules I think a certain amount of caution needs to be applied to the Non-Energy Resistance, Non-skill bonus to items.

And the rules simply don't support multiplying the armor as a secondary ability even if it is the cheaper cost.  Looking at the costs you always multiply the additional abilities that cost money by 1.5  (So the cost for the armor, even if it is acceptable for adding  a Sacred Bonus to saves to armor for a money cost as opposed to a bonus cost it should always be multiplied by 1.5 not the armor)


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## Wrahn (Nov 2, 2004)

Kangaxx said:
			
		

> If the clothing counted as armor, then it would negate monk bonuses.  I think that would defeat the purpose of getting it instead of armor for you.
> 
> Armor special abilities on bracers would be just as unfair as armor bonuses on clothing in my opinion.  Part of the tradeoff of being a monk or arcane caster is losing access to those abilities, (a big part of the tradeoff of being a monk,) and putting those abilities on non-armor items removes those penalties, at no cost to the character.




Isida has made her ruling.  So talking about this is completely irrelevant. However, from a simple rules perspective the using clothing as armor becomes increasingly murky and contradictory.

In truth I think it is just a silly argument.  Find me a situation where it is unbalanced to apply the armor rules to clothing (just because they have an armor bonus does not make them armor, otherwise bracers of armor would be out too).  There was a thread on this in the rules section, I'll see if I can dig it up.

Edit:

Here is the link: http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=105611


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## perivas (Nov 2, 2004)

TheOneAboveAll, I don't believe that the enhancement bonuses from your epic rod of splendor and the headband stack.

I was wondering...does anyone know how much an item which increases one's spellcasting level and the DC's of spells cost?  What if the increases are limited to one school of spells only?  Thanks!


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## Ferrix (Nov 2, 2004)

Cost to get an effective spell caster level increase is equal to the increase squared times 15,000gp.  Thus +1 spellcaster level = 15000gp, +2 spellcaster level = 60000gp, +3 spellcaster level = 135000gp, etc.

DC increase I would say breaking down the arcanists amulet (+2 DC's for 50k) is probably either 25,000gp per +1 (linear) or bonus squared times 12500gp (exponential).  Thus +1 DC = 12500gp, +2 DC = 50000gp, +3 DC = 112500gp, etc.  I'd go with exponential probably as it's more balanced usually with the existing ways things increase.

For the increase to one school, the only close example I know of is the items from Expanded PsiHB which add +1 DC to those of a specific discipline.  Which costs 8000gp.  Probably cheaper just to go all around bonus unless you really want a high increase for a specific school.


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## Ferrix (Nov 2, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Arbitrary changing of bonus is just that: arbitrary.  There can be 100,000 reasons for it, perhaps they feel that a single item with freedom of movement should be cheaper, perhaps they feel that a ring should be cheaper.
> 
> The point is, unless we are the game master, we can not make the arbitrary judgements and are left with the guidelines.




Who's being arbitrary, I'm taking a specific effect that they list as 40k gp on a ring (which has no affinity for a type of effect), to a slot that does have the body slot affinity (movement based).  If that changes the cost at all which it shouldn't, I'll just leave it on the ring cause then I'm only paying 40k for it.  It would be silly to assume otherwise.



			
				wrahn said:
			
		

> Spell Resistance 19 in the DMG is a +5 Bonus when applied to armor, bringing the total modifier over +10 making it epic and bringing the cost up to 1,210,000.  In non-epic circumstances it would usually be cheaper than the wondrous items, but with the epic rules I think a certain amount of caution needs to be applied to the Non-Energy Resistance, Non-skill bonus to items.
> 
> And the rules simply don't support multiplying the armor as a secondary ability even if it is the cheaper cost.  Looking at the costs you always multiply the additional abilities that cost money by 1.5  (So the cost for the armor, even if it is acceptable for adding  a Sacred Bonus to saves to armor for a money cost as opposed to a bonus cost it should always be multiplied by 1.5 not the armor)




However I'm not adding an effect that has a specific armor bonus modifier (like spell resistance), thus I'm pretty much going by the rules as listed except I'm multiplying the lower cost part of the item by 1.5 rather than the higher cost part (which is in the rules) but however not supported the same way in armor which is a little silly.  And plus adding spell resistance 19 to a +6 piece of armor is a waste at epic levels for that amount of money, when I can have spell resistance of 32 for 200,000gp on another item.


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## Wrahn (Nov 2, 2004)

> Paladin 5, Cleric 1, Fist of Raziel 6, Warpriest 4, Contemplative 6




This is 22 levels, +6 from ECL = 28th, I am assuming Divinely Infused costs +1, since you lost a level with your sword?



> Str: 31 (+10) [12 base, + 4 race, + 5 manual, + 1 lvl, + 6 headband, + 2 divine infused]




12+4+5+1+6+2=30  (Minor point) may want to increase this since Strength is the bread and butter stat of the warrior types.



> Dex: 25 (++7) [10 base, +2 race, +5 manual, +6 headband, +2 divinely infused]
> Int: 17 (+3) [10 base, +2 race, +5 tome]




May only want to buy a +4 books.  Same effect, less money



> Wis: 40 (+15) [16 base, + 4 race, +2 saint, +5 tome, +3 lvl, +6 headband, +4 divinely infused]
> Cha: 42 (+16) [13 base, +4 race, +4 saint, +5 tome, +6 headband, +8 epic rod of splendor, +6 divinely infused]




For a character that is supposed to be focused on combat you placed a terrific emphasis statistically on these two stats.  Just an observation.

As perivas noted the bonus to your Charisma from the headband and the rod are both echancement bonuses and don't stack.  If I recall correctly, the Headband of Perfect Excellence is +6 to Strength, Dex and Wisdom, and doesn't give a charisma bonus anyway.



> Half Celestial
> AC +1




Minor point, it is +1 Natural Armor




> Hit Dice: 8d8+5d8+11d10+6d6




You lost a level due to your sword, if Divinely infused is +2 LA, then you need to drop a class level.




> BAB: +18/+13/+8/+3




Assuming the Fist of Raziel is a fighter BAB, 5 for Paladin + 0 for Cleric + 6 for the Fist of Raziel +4 for War Priest (I think) + 2 for Contemplative (only get 4 levels here until Epic Progression) +17 BAB.  Epic BAB is not truly BAB, it has some of the properties of it (Like it adds to Maximum Power Attack) but lacks the most important one (No iterative attacks).  You will get +1 Epic BAB 



> Saves:
> Fortitude 45 [16 base, +8 con, +5 epic, +16 paladin]
> Reflex 32 [4 base, +7 dex, +5 epic, +16 paladin]
> Will 45 [9 base, +15 wis, +5 epic, +16 paladin]




Regular save progression does not continue after the 20th hit dice, it goes to Epic.  You have 2 epic hit dice so you have a +1 Epic bonus.  And for heaven’s sake get a resistance bonus, they are cheap.



> Feats:
> combat casting (Bonus Human)




Your concentration should be relatively impressive, I would ditch this feat



> leadership (1st level)




Order is wrong for that, need to wait for 6th level (nit pick)



> power attack (3rd Level),
> servant of heaven (6th level),
> purify spell, (9th level)
> divine might, (12th level)
> ...




Okay, a few things.  You only have 22 hit dice and only get feats out to that point (your skills are capped at 25 too).  You don’t qualify for Improved Spell Capacity (Which requires you to have maximum spell casting ability and because you only have 17 levels of caster, the item you have only increases your caster level, not your spells per day  )

You qualify for epic feats at 15th level, Were I you, I would drop extra turning, Positive Energy Aura and Combat casting unless those are required for a prestige class.




> Spells Prepared
> Progression [6/ 9+1/ 9+1/ 9+1/ 8+1/ 8+1/ 7+1/ 7+1/ 6+1/ 6+1/ 3/ 3]




Your extra domain slots continue with each new level of spells you get.







> Armor +10 [called, sacred, soulfire, undead disrupting]




This item will be monumentally expensive (depending on the bonuses of some of those, maybe 4,000,000)





> Large mithral Shield +6 [called, animated, sacred]




Again this is going to cost more than it is worth (1,000,000ish)

Weapons


> Nyla
> Nyla, the Holy One, lawful good intelligent bastard sword, 17th level: hardness 20, hp 21;Communication: Telepathy; Perception: Blindsense 60ft., and Hearing;
> 
> Abilities: Int12, Wis 12, Cha 15.





While I like the role playing aspects of the weapon, it is terrifically expensive (it cost you a level) and you could accomplish the same things with money.  

Is it possible to buy a weapon and then add this to it?  Say a +5 Sword or a Sunblade?



> manuals/tomes 6*+6 822 000




825,000, you forgot the 500 at the end of the 137,500



> headband of perfect excellence 180 000




The cost of this is wonky.  I am not sure if it is right or wrong, but I can tell you that you can make it better by splitting it into two items.  A belt for 90,000 which gives +6 Strength and Dex and a headband for 36,000 which gives +6 to Wisdom.




> phylactery of faithfulness 1 000
> phylactery of undead turning 11 000




Can’t wear 2 phylacteries, Combining them together:  Phylactery of Faithfulness and Undead turning 12,500



> caster level +5 375 000




Probably works best as a vest.


----------



## Wrahn (Nov 2, 2004)

Ferrix said:
			
		

> Cost to get an effective spell caster level increase is equal to the increase squared times 15,000gp.  Thus +1 spellcaster level = 15000gp, +2 spellcaster level = 60000gp, +3 spellcaster level = 135000gp, etc.
> 
> DC increase I would say breaking down the arcanists amulet (+2 DC's for 50k) is probably either 25,000gp per +1 (linear) or bonus squared times 12500gp (exponential).  Thus +1 DC = 12500gp, +2 DC = 50000gp, +3 DC = 112500gp, etc.  I'd go with exponential probably as it's more balanced usually with the existing ways things increase.
> 
> For the increase to one school, the only close example I know of is the items from Expanded PsiHB which add +1 DC to those of a specific discipline.  Which costs 8000gp.  Probably cheaper just to go all around bonus unless you really want a high increase for a specific school.




You are going to love this Ferrix.  The +2 DC is based on a spell (Greater Magic Flow 4th level, +2 to DCs) the cost of the item is of course wrong.  (Read as completely Arbitrary).  I would NOT deconstruct it, it is already a powerful effect. (Though the same effect could be accomplished with a 16,000gp item, it's effects stack this it is a dangerous item to be playing with)

For the sake of 1 school, were I running the game, I would halve the cost, but it's effects would not stack with the normal amulet.


----------



## Wrahn (Nov 2, 2004)

Ferrix said:
			
		

> Who's being arbitrary, I'm taking a specific effect that they list as 40k gp on a ring (which has no affinity for a type of effect), to a slot that does have the body slot affinity (movement based).  If that changes the cost at all which it shouldn't, I'll just leave it on the ring cause then I'm only paying 40k for it.  It would be silly to assume otherwise.




Talk to Isida is the only thing I can tell you.  Following the guidelines set out it should be more expensive.  Keeping it on a ring makes your argument stronger, but don't go changing your equipment on my strict interruptation of the rules (Heck if I was running the game and you said that is what you were doing and you were basing your cost on the ring, I might let you get away with it, but as players, we need to either ask the GM or assume the worst)



			
				Ferrix said:
			
		

> However I'm not adding an effect that has a specific armor bonus modifier (like spell resistance), thus I'm pretty much going by the rules as listed except I'm multiplying the lower cost part of the item by 1.5 rather than the higher cost part (which is in the rules) but however not supported the same way in armor which is a little silly.  And plus adding spell resistance 19 to a +6 piece of armor is a waste at epic levels for that amount of money, when I can have spell resistance of 32 for 200,000gp on another item.




No you are adding Sacred Bonus to Saves, which falls under a grey area.  I agree the 19 spell Resist on the armor is a waste, however, those are the rules just like this:

+1 Suit of Armor with a +5 Competence bonus to Hide costs:
1,000 + 3750 (2500*1.5) = 4,750 + Armor Cost

NOT

+1 Suit of Armor with a +5 Competence bonus to Hide costs:
1,500 (1,000*1.5) + 2,500 = 4,000 + armor cost * 1.5

It is just the way armor is made, check the book.

Further, Glamour, Elemental Resistance, and Skill Bonuses are the only thing that cost money not bonuses.  Assuming that it doesn't cost bonuses is presumptious.  (I would not allow you to do it my game, I would stay with the published stuff as those rules are murky and I am not going to venture a guess between what can be added with money and what can't be)


----------



## Kangaxx (Nov 2, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> You only have 22 hit dice and only get feats out to that point (your skills are capped at 25 too).  You don’t qualify for Improved Spell Capacity (Which requires you to have maximum spell casting ability and because you only have 17 levels of caster, the item you have only increases your caster level, not your spells per day




He only needs to be able to cast 9th level spells for improved spell capacity.


----------



## Wrahn (Nov 2, 2004)

Kangaxx said:
			
		

> He only needs to be able to cast 9th level spells for improved spell capacity.




You are right (I checked before I posted but misread the SRD) unfortunately he still can't take the feats because he only qualifies at his last level (22nd) and he can't delay taking the feats until then.


----------



## Isida Kep'Tukari (Nov 2, 2004)

Aye, you must take your feats at the levels you obtain them, no "saving" feats in order to take all the high level ones.

Also, remember to label everything that came from a book other than core in your character sheets.  They should be in the exact format as the sample character.


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## Wrahn (Nov 2, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> You are right (I checked before I posted but misread the SRD) unfortunately he still can't take the feats because he only qualifies at his last level (22nd) and he can't delay taking the feats until then.




Moving around a few things and taking more levels of Cleric, instead of Paladin may be beneficial and allow you to take your feats.  You need 18th level and 21st level, so you need to get to 17th caster level by 18.  Assuming spell Progression through the classes if 1 for 1, then taking levels of cleric instead of levels of paladin may save you.

1-8 Cleric
9-14 Fist of Raziel
15-16 Contemplative
17-20 War Priest
21-22 Paladin

Or whatever.  At that point you could take both your Improved Spell capacity feats.  Let me play around with it when I get home to my books.


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## Kelleris (Nov 2, 2004)

I find it vaguely alarming that equipment is causing this much dispute...  Oh, and for what it's worth, that retributive amulet thingy is crazily, ridiculously, blatantly broken.  It's broken at lower levels, but it's pathetically so at 30th.

Anyway, just a quick request.  I was checking out _Arms and Equipment_ at home this weekend, and there were three weapons that I wanted to pillage special properties from.  If someone could give me the gist of them and the market price, that'd be great.

The items were the gnomish steam bow, the hammer of sacrifice, and a (rapier?) that allowed you to dimension door as a free action a certain number of times per day after striking a foe.

Isida, I want to finish this character up tonight, but we'll see how it goes.  Is there anything blatantly out of order with the stuff I posted earlier?  I do intend to spend my remaining gold now, so it'll be much more of a hassle to redo the equipment list after this point, since I won't have that buffer.


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Nov 3, 2004)

Nothing too blatant.  Honestly, I just want this to be fun, and I don't want to have to nit-pick everyone's character sheet.  Put up your stuff, and if you think it will make me cry, pick something else.  We start Thursday at the latest.


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## Kelleris (Nov 3, 2004)

Hmm...  Hope someone can give me those items soon, then.  Darn my hide for forgetting the book!

Well, there was one thing.  I added the luckblade effect to Akumunaga, which I assume won't be a problem.  However, I also gave it the ability to "recharge" one _wish_ per month.  I costed the ability at 225,000 gold, which seems reasonable since I could just buy another two _rings of three wishes_ for less than that.  Is this okay?

Oh, and one more thing.  Can I quick draw my own weapon with a DC 70 Sleight of Hand check, even without the feat.  I ask because it's DC 50 to steal someone else's sheathed weapon, and -20 to do it as a free action.  If I an acquire someone else's weapon that fast, it seems like I should be able to draw my own with equal rapidity.


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Nov 3, 2004)

Free wishes!  Whee!  

Are you going to be paying the XP for these wishes each month?


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## Kelleris (Nov 3, 2004)

No, that's included in the price.  Can't really afford to drop 5,000 XP every month.  I figured that this would be more reasonable than just having a dozen or so wishes lying around, which is the alternative.  This way I'm kept in wishes over a (very) long campaign (me = happy) and don't have to go through the inanity of making gather info checks to find another ring.  You don't have to worry about me casting 10 wishes in a row and completely fragging your reality (you = happy).

Also, you said we wouldn't have much time to craft, and I assume this goes for waiting around for items to recharge too.  If I go 3 full months without making enough money back to simply buy another _ring of three wishes_, i'll be mildly shocked.

Or so I figure...


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Nov 3, 2004)

Fine, that's ok.  Whee...


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## Kelleris (Nov 3, 2004)

These whees are bothering me.  Wouldn't want the DM to pass out and accidentally TPK us, after all...      Sure it's okay?


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## Ferrix (Nov 3, 2004)

Yeah the DM falling face first onto the page of the hecatoncheires, leaving us to fight it in their absence, not cool.


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Nov 3, 2004)

No, no, no, great wyrm prismatic dragon, that's what I fell asleep on...


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## Ferrix (Nov 3, 2004)

ouchie...

redoing some stuff on my character...


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## TheOneAboveAll (Nov 3, 2004)

Thanks for the help, I will get to it as soon as I can.  Work is kind of crazy.  

I might need to start from scratch , it seems I have a lot of little bits hanging from trying to swap and switch.  Too many concepts,  Need to focus and not rush.

What is the general party make up?  Might help me to decide whether to go more holy or more warrior.  Right not I am kind of stuck in between.

Any sugesstions?


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## Ferrix (Nov 3, 2004)

You might want to have a look in the rogues gallery for some good idea, what I have so far predicted is:

Wrahn's Elephant Warrior has some heavy beating power
Kangaxx is pretty heavily arcane/rogue type
I'm doing the Psion/Constructor who can manifest beat-em down constructs

A divine caster type might be good, but play what you want really.

btw Isida I'm dropping the amulet of retribution (I figure it'll make anyone but the people I game with back home cry), I didn't even pull the Starmantle Cloak + Retributive Amulet + Improved Evasion Monk I've been dying to try.  Guess I'll save that to tweak out my friends at home.


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## Ferrix (Nov 3, 2004)

I understand the rebuilding, I'm slowly reworking my psion to not make Isida cry, but at the same time keep me happy.


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## TheOneAboveAll (Nov 3, 2004)

My biggest problem is tha i am split between the thought of a battle hardened holy warrior and the diplomatic spell caster that serves and protects.  It seems hard to find that middle ground that i am seeking.


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## Ferrix (Nov 3, 2004)

Well, I imagine diplomacy won't be always useful getting back at God's who destroyed our world, unless you plan on orchestrating large plots for them to start backstabbing each other, which doesn't seem like most clerics would do.

One thing that might be neat to check out is Isida's prestige class that furthers the things you can do with turning attempts.  It looks pretty cool, although I don't know how it'd work out at epic levels.


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## Kangaxx (Nov 3, 2004)

TheOneAboveAll said:
			
		

> My biggest problem is tha i am split between the thought of a battle hardened holy warrior and the diplomatic spell caster that serves and protects.  It seems hard to find that middle ground that i am seeking.




Speaking as someone else who made a character trying to fulfill two roles, you're going to have to pick a primary one and focus on it.  Pilmer ended up focusing on spellcasting over thieving, and you can see that distinction in his mediocre thieving skill list (for his level) and his lower sneak attack dice.  If you try to split evenly between the two, you'll end up not being that good at either.  If you want to focus on fighting, consider getting persistent spell from ToB and more combat oriented feats, and using your magic in a more suplementary fashion.  I you want to focus on casting, you might want to reduce your ECL and trade out more paladin levels for caster levels, so your spells will have a better chance of hitting the big nasties.  

Also, I was looking at positive energy aura, and it says it works based on your cleric level -10.  That'd be -9 for you, but even if you interpreted it as caster level, it would only affect enemies of 7 hit dice or less.  Those are about as threatening as gnats to a level 30 character.


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## Zack2216 (Nov 3, 2004)

come on, I did a ok job of dividing my focus a bit. Granted, I can't mow down an army with 1 power, but I can definately multitask and do some hurt, after I learn combat transformation.


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## Wrahn (Nov 3, 2004)

This is a character I built for another epic game that never really got off the ground.  It uses stuff from the complete warrior and some differing rules for if you created your own items, but I think Talariel actually was a pretty solid Warrior/Cleric.

Name: Talariel
Race: Female Trumpet Archon (Outsider, Lawful, Good)
Class: ECL 8/Outsider 12/Cleric 6/Hierophant 3/Contemplative 1
Alignment: Lawful Good
Height: 5'4"
Weight: 110lbs
Eyes: Green
Hair: Green (Blond)
Complexion: Green (Pale)

Strength 28 (13, +10 Race, +5 Inherent)
Dexterity 24 (10, +6 Race, +5 Inherent, +3 Enhancement)
Constitution 36 (13, +12 Race, +5 Inherent, +6 Enhancement)
Intelligence 22 (12, +6 Race, +4 Inherent)
Wisdom 40 (14, +6 Race, +5 Level, +5 Inherent, +10 Enhancement)
Charisma 30 (14, +6 Race, +4 Inherent, +6 Enhancement)

Hit Points: 398 (12d8+7d8+1d6+2d8+286)

AC 60 (10, +9 Armor, +14 Natural, +5 Deflection, +5 Luck, +5 Sacred, +5 Dexterity, +7 Shield)

Attack: 31/26/21/16 (17 BAB, +9 Strength, +1 Weapon, +1 Epic, +1 Competence, +2 Morale)
Damage 2d6+1d6 Fire +1d6 Cold +1d6 Electrical, +1d6 Acid, +1d6 Sonic, +2d6 Holy, +1 Con damage +14 (+13 from Strength +1 from weapon)

-or-

Attack: 36/31/26/21 (17 BAB, +9 Strength, +6 Weapon, +1 Epic, +1 Competence, +2 Morale)
Damage: 2d6 +19 (+13 Stength, +6 Weapon)

Saves:

Fort +49 (16 Base +13 Con, +5 Resistance, +10 Cha, +1 Epic, +1 Luck, +1 Competence, +2 Morale)
Reflex +37 (10 Base, +7 Dex, +5 Resistance, +10 Cha, +1 Epic, +1 Luck, +1 Competence, +2 Morale)
Will +51 (16 Base, +15 Wis, +5 Resistance, +10 Cha, +1 Epic, +1 Luck, +1 Competence, +2 Morale)


Racial Abilities

—Darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision.
—Aura of Menace (Su): A righteous aura surrounds archons that fight or get angry. Any hostile creature within a 20-foot radius of an archon must succeed on a Will save DC 28. Those who fail take a –2 penalty on attacks, AC, and saves for 24 hours or until they successfully hit the archon that generated the aura. A creature that has resisted or broken the effect cannot be affected again by the same archon’s aura for 24 hours.
—Immunity to electricity and petrification.
— +4 racial bonus on saves against poison.
—Magic Circle against Evil (Su): A magic circle against evil effect always surrounds an archon (caster level 22).
—Teleport (Su): Archons can use greater teleport at will, as the spell (caster level 14th), except that the creature can transport only itself and up to 50 pounds of objects.
—Tongues (Su): All archons can speak with any creature that has a language, as though using a tongues spell (caster level 14th). This ability is always active.
—Spell-Like Abilities: At will—detect evil, continual flame, message. Caster level 12th.
—Trumpet (Su): An archon’s trumpet produces music of utter clarity, piercing beauty, and, if the trumpet archon wills it, paralyzing awe. All creatures except archons within 100 feet of the blast must succeed on a DC 26 Fortitude save or be paralyzed for 1d4 rounds. The archon can also command its trumpet to become a +4 greatsword as a free action.
—Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish)
—A trumpet archon’s natural weapons, as well as any weapons it wields, are treated as good-aligned and lawful-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
—Spell Resistance: 39
—40ft Ground movement
—90ft Flight (good)
—+10 Str, +6 Dex, +12 Con, +6 Int, +6 Wis, +6 Cha
—+14 Natural Armor
—Damage Reduction 10/evil

Class Abilities:

Prestige Domain: Access to the Mysticism domain
Divine Health: Immune to all disease magical and otherwise
Divine Reach 2: A hierophant with this ability can use touch spells on targets up to 30 feet away. If the spell requires a melee touch attack, the hierophant must make a ranged touch attack instead. Divine reach can be selected a second time as a special ability, in which case the range increases to 60 feet.
Bonus Metamagic Feat: Quicken Spell
Domain Powers: 
Courage: all allies within 10ft (including self) gain a +4 morale bonus on saving throws versus fear effects.
Good: Cast Good spells at +1 Caster Level
Mysticism: Charisma Bonus to saves

Feats:

Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, Improved Spell Capacity, Improved Spell Capacity, Improved Spell Capacity, Craft Wondrous Item, (Quicken Spell)

Skills:


Concentration 42 (25 Ranks, +13 Con, +1 Luck, +1 Competence, +2 Morale)
Craft (Needlework) 14 (4 ranks, +6 Int, +1 Luck, +1 Competence, +2 Morale) 
Diplomacy 41 (25 Ranks, +10 Cha, +2 Synergy, +1 Luck, +1 Competence, +2 Morale)
Heal 25 (6 Ranks, +15 Wis, +1 Luck, +1 Competence, +2 Morale)
Hide 38 (15 Ranks, +7 Dex, +15 Competence, +1 Luck, +2 Morale, -2 Armor check)
Knowledge (Arcana) 26 (16 Ranks, +6 Int, +1 Luck, +1 Competence, +2 Morale)
Knowledge (Religion) 34 (24 Ranks, +6 Int, +1 Luck, +1 Competence, +2 Morale)
Knowledge (The Planes) 26 (16 Ranks +6 Int, +1 Luck. +1 Competence, +2 Morale)
Listen 34 (15 Ranks +15Wis +1 Luck, +1 Competence, +2 Morale)
Move Silently 38 (15 Ranks +7 Dex, +15 Competence, +1 Luck, +2 Morale)
Perform (wind inst.) 29 (15 Ranks +10 Cha +1 Luck, +1 Competence, +2 Morale)
Perform (Singing) 29 (15 Ranks +10 Cha, +1 Luck, +1 Competence, +2 Morale)
Sense Motive 44 (25 Ranks +15 Wis, +1 Luck, +1 Competence, +2 Morale)
Spellcraft 37 (25 Ranks +6 Int, +1 Luck, +1 Competence, +2 Synergy, +2 Morale)
Spot 34 (15 Ranks, +15 Wis, +1 Luck, +1 Competence, +2 Morale)

Spells:
Base DC: 25 Caster Level: 27 Domains: Courage, Good, Mysticism
6/9+1/9+1/9+1/8+1/8+1/7+1/7+1/6+1/6+1/3+1/3+1/2+1

0. Detect Magic, Create Water, Mending, Guidance, Purify Food and Drink, Read Magic
1. Bless, Santuary, Divine Favor, Doom, Command (x2), Eyes of the Avoral (BoED99), Ray of Hope (BoED105), Vision of Heaven (BoED111), +Protection from Evil
2. Calm Emotion, Lesser Restoration (x2), Silence, Augury, Elation (x2) (BoED98), Hold Person, Remove Paralysis, +Spiritual Weapon
3. Magic Vestment (x2), Daylight, Searing Light, Dispel Magic, Invisibility Purge, Speak with Dead. Remove Disease, Remove Curse, +Magic Circle against Evil
4. Recitation (x2)(DotF), Sending, Greater Magic Weapon (x2), Neutralize Poison, Sword of Conscience (BoED109), Blood of the Martyr (BoED92) +Holy Smite
5. Persistent Divine Favor, Extended Greater Status (BoED100), Flame Strike, Slay Living, Greater Command, Righteous Might, Dispel Evil, Plane Shift, +Valiant Fury(CW118)
6. Heal (x5), Banishment, Greater Dispel Magic, +Heroes Feast
7. Righteous Wrath of the Faithful (DotF), Holy Word, Repulsion, Destruction, Righteous Smite (BoE106)(x3), +Greater Heroism 
8. Persistent Freedom of Movement, Persistent Divine Power, Discern Location, Antimagic Field, Fire Storm, Spread Contentment (BoED107), +Lion's Roar (CW118) 
9. Persistent Righteous Might, Miracle, Extended Holy Aura, Mass Heal, True Resurrection, Gate, +Quickened Valiant Fury
10. Persistent Quickshift (BoED104), Quickened Heal (x2), +Extended Greater Aspect of Deity
11. Persistent Shield of the Archons (BoED107), Quickened Righteous Smite (x2), +Extended Greater Cloak of Bravery
12. Quickened Firestorm, Persistent Greater Spell Immunity, +Extended Quickened Greater Heroism 

Possessions:

82,500 +5 Book of Strength*
82,500 +5 Book of Dexterity*
82,500 +5 Book of Constitution*
66,000 +4 Book of Intelligence*
82,500 +5 Book of Wisdom*
66,000 +4 Book of Charisma*

1,000,000 Periapt of Epic Wisdom (+10 Enhancement to Wisdom)

37,500 Gold Dragon Scale Gauntlets: Made from the cast off scales of Auriex, a Great Gold Wyrm. They impart some of the luck of luck inherient to the gold dragons. (+5 Luck Bonus to AC)*

21,600 Belt of Health (+6 Enhancement Bonus to Constitution)*

39,600 Circlet of Charisma and Disguise: A silvery circlet with a small emerald in the center. (+6 Enhancement Bonus to Charisma, Disguise Self at will)

60,000 Cloak of Radiant Shielding: When the wearer of this white and gold cloak is attacked a golden aura briefly surrounds the caster, attempting to deflect the attack. (+5 Deflection and +5 Resistance bonus to Saves)*

312,850 Baldraga’s Shifting Armor: Baldraga was a powerful succubus, who wore this armor until she was slain by the group. It’s form will shift on mental command from the wearer, from a beautiful gown to a murky silvered appearance that almost seems to blend into the background. It is eerily silent when it moves. It almost seems like a liquid over the wearers body as it shifts to accommodate movement, leaving no weaknesses in the armor to exploit. Additionally it augments the wearers appearance to such a degree that anyone who tries to attack them must make a save vs. a DC11 or be charmed as charm person if a human or animal and a DC17 versus or be charmed as Charm Monster if anything else. Anyone who successfully attacks her gains a +4 to the save. (Glamered, Mithral Charming Full Plate Armor +1 of Heavy Fortification and Nimbleness, Greater Acid Resistance, Cold Resistance, Silent Moves and Shadowed)

101,170 Ghost Shield: This translucent disc of metal, 2 feet in diameter given the command will float around it’s owner acting as a shield. (Mithral Animated Large Shield +5 of Ghost Touch) 

203,000 Adamantine Holy, Screaming, Shocking, Frost, Flaming, Corrosive Great Sword +1 of Wounding

688,000 Trumpet: This six foot long silvery trumpet allows the use of the Trumpet ability of the Trumpet Archon, but in someone else’s hands it is a useless lump of metal. As a free action a trumpet archon can change it into a +6 Great Sword.

54,000 Glasses of True Sight: These normal looking glasses let any who wear them see the world as it truly is. (Continuous effect: True sight)*

75,000 Sacred Prayer Book: A small book containing divine prayers for protection. It‘s mere possession grants protection against physical attacks (+5 Sacred Bonus to Armor Class) *

100,800 Boots of Void Grounding: These soft brown leather boots have soles which are of the deepest black. As long as they are worn, negative energy effects are drawn out from the wearer through the soles and drain back to the negative material plane effectively death warding the wearer. (Continuous Effect: Death Ward, caster level 7)*

30,000 Figure of Perfection: This 2inch tall figure appears as a more perfect version of the owner granting greater competence in most endeavors: +1 Competence Bonus to attack rolls, skills, saves and ability checks

48,000 Figure of the Hero: This figure appears as the owner, but somehow greater, inspiring the owner to acts of heroism (Continuous effect: Heroism)

18,000 Figure of Grace: A small Alabaster figure imparts a +3 Enhancement bonus to Dexterity to it's possessor

135,000 Bracers of Greater Magic: These bracers are made of a golden filigree, their abilities enhance the flow of magic, increasing the functional caster level for the wearer for the purposes of spell variables and caster checks. They do not increase the spell capacity of a caster. (+3 Caster Levels)

240,000 Ring of Fire Immunity
240,000 Ring of Sonic Immunity
288,250 10 Scrolls of Wish (used)
12,000 Luckstone*
25,000 Donation for self and Lochlan for Rary's Telepathic Bond
2,000 Handy Haversack
1,000 Silversheen (x4)

100,000 Ingredients for True Resurrection (Diamond dust mixed with holy water) (x4)
1,600 Masterwork Composite Longbow (+12 Strength)
5 Arrows (x100)
5 Spell component Case
10 Silken Rope 100ft
10 Sunrods(x5)
25 Holy Symbol, Silver
1,000 Spyglass
100 Masterwork flute

2,475gp unspent

*Self Made

Appearance: Publicly she appears as a tallish elf with long curly golden hair and a pale complexion via the disguise feature of her circlet. As most elves, her face is unlined by age, she appears to be in her late teens or early twenties. She is breathtakingly beautiful, but when wearing her armor she becomes “Beauty incarnate” as one of her admirers called her. In her true form she looks much the same, her completion turns green and her hair takes on a darker green color. Two great white feathered wings come from her back.

It is important to note she has a strong emotional effect on those around her. She is supernaturally beautiful (Charming armor), Gives a sense of security and protection for those around her (Aura of courage and circle of protection from evil), Frightening those who are hostile to her (aura of menace). When adventuring has the Greater Aura of Courage up which inspires her allies to such a degree that it makes them immune to fear and makes them attack better.

Personality: Despite her power, Talariel is quite young, especially for the celestials. She has a tendency to be fascinated by things others would consider mundane. Her sometimes childlike glee about things makes her appear very young. However, she is still a celestial and even among the celestials she is considered wise. 

She has a tendency to mother the rest of the party, tending to torn clothing, making sure they have places to stay, making sure they have brought enough food, managing the mundane necessities of the adventuring life.

She is also kind of a neat freak, meticulous about cleanliness and organization. You all know well the clucking of her tongue when someone has left a mess in camp.


She prays for her spells an hour before dawn, when it is the darkest and courage is needed most. Just before she begins to pray, she casts her normal daily spells (which all last 24 hours or longer) renewing them and then rememorizes them to have incase of emergency.

---Daily Spells: Persistent Shield of the Archons, Persistent Quickshift, Extended Cloak of Bravery, Persistent Divine Power, Persistent Divine Favor, Magic Weapon (On Elemental Avenger), Magic Vestments (on armor), Persistent Freedom of Movement, Persistent Greater Spell Immunity (Unholy Word, Word of Chaos, Horrid Wilting, Maze, Dimensional Anchor, Dimensional Lock)

AC 64 (10, +13 Armor, +14 Natural, +5 Deflection, +5 Luck, +5 Sacred, +5 Dexterity, +7 Shield)

Attack: 51/46/41/36 (20 BAB, +12 Strength, +5 Weapon, +5 Epic, +1 Competence, +2 Morale, +6 Luck)
Damage 2d6+1d6 Fire +1d6 Cold +1d6 Electrical, +1d6 Acid, +1d6 Sonic, +2d6 Holy, +1 Con damage +29 (+18 from Strength +5 from weapon, +6 Luck)

-or-

Attack: 52/47/42/37 (20 BAB, +12 Strength, +6 Weapon, +5 Epic, +1 Competence, +2 Morale, +6 Luck)
Damage: 2d6 +30 (+18 Strength, +6 Weapon, +6 Luck)


Preparing to go into combat, she will generally cast the follow spells:

---The Rage of Angels: Persistent Righteous Might, Valiant Fury, Greater Heroism, Greater Aspect of Deity

Hit Points: 486 (12d8+7d8+1d6+2d8+374)

AC 68 (10, +13 Armor, +19 Natural, +5 Deflection, +5 Luck, +5 Sacred, +5 Dexterity, +7 Shield, -1 Size)

Attack: 58/58/53/48/43 (20 BAB, +18 Strength, +5 Weapon, +5 Epic, +1 Competence, +4 Morale, +6 Luck, -1 Size)
Damage 3d6+1d6 Fire +1d6 Cold +1d6 Electrical, +1d6 Acid, +1d6 Sonic, +2d6 Holy, +1 Con damage +38 (+27 Strength +5 weapon, +6 Luck)

-or-

Attack: 59/59/54/49/44 (20 BAB, +18 Strength, +6 Weapon, +5 Epic, +1 Competence, +4 Morale, +6 Luck, -1 Size) Damage: 3d6 +39 (+27 Strength, +6 Weapon, +6 Luck)

Saves:

Fort +55 (16 Base +17 Con, +5 Resistance, +10 Cha, +1 Epic, +1 Luck, +1 Competence, +4 Morale)
Reflex +39 (10 Base, +7 Dex, +5 Resistance, +10 Cha, +1 Epic, +1 Luck, +1 Competence, +4 Morale)
Will +53 (16 Base, +15 Wis, +5 Resistance, +10 Cha, +1 Epic, +1 Luck, +1 Competence, +4 Morale)


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## Kelleris (Nov 3, 2004)

Indeed.  I have to agree that it's at least possible to divide your interests and come out okay.  I've done pretty well going the skill master route, and still managed a secondary emphasis on buffing and combat (although I have to be really creative fighting).


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## Kangaxx (Nov 3, 2004)

I didn't mean all your characters are terrible, I hope I didn't give anyone that impression.   I'm just saying that most characters with multiple roles specialize in one, lest they be worse at both.  Kelleris, you said yourself that you have weaker combat abilities because you focused on skills.  That doesn't mean you're going to suck in a fight, just that you're not going to be effective as you would've been if designed him for combat over skills.  Zack, I have very little experience with psionics, so I can't really make informed judgements about your character.  Wrahn, your archon looks to be heavily focused on melee over casting to me.  She also seems to have too many epic feats.  You only get them for character levels over 20, not effective character levels.


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## Wrahn (Nov 3, 2004)

Kangaxx said:
			
		

> Wrahn, your archon looks to be heavily focused on melee over casting to me.  She also seems to have too many epic feats.  You only get them for character levels over 20, not effective character levels.




You qualify for Epic feats when your Character Level is > 20.  Your character level is defined as your Hit Dice + LA.  So Talariel qualified for epic feats at her 13th Hit Dice.  Epic BAB and Epic Save progression starts at your 21st Hit Dice.

The rules, while a little murky, are explained in a sidebar in the epic level handbook.  The epic rules in general are pretty forgiving for ECL creatures.


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## Wrahn (Nov 3, 2004)

> - Supreme Regeneration: gains Regeneration 5.  When reduced to 0 hit points just disabled.




Something has been bugging me about that since I read it.  I finally figured out what it was.

When a creature has regeneration and is hit by something that it is not vulnerable to it take subdual damage, instead of normal damage.

You list nothing that it is vulnerable to.

Constructs don't take subdual damage.

An Astral Construct with this ability is immune to hit point damage and for all practical purposes invulnerable. (No death effect, no death by massive damage, Disintegrate now does hit point damage, no coup de grace).

I would change this to Fast Healing 5 and is only disabled when lowered to 0 hit points.


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## Kangaxx (Nov 3, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> You qualify for Epic feats when your Character Level is > 20.  Your character level is defined as your Hit Dice + LA.  So Talariel qualified for epic feats at her 13th Hit Dice.  Epic BAB and Epic Save progression starts at your 21st Hit Dice.
> 
> The rules, while a little murky, are explained in a sidebar in the epic level handbook.  The epic rules in general are pretty forgiving for ECL creatures.




I don't have the book handy, so I'll take your word for it.  

Pilmer has been editted with several pages of flavor text and a few corrections, and is now a spellbook away from being completely done.


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## Ferrix (Nov 3, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Something has been bugging me about that since I read it.  I finally figured out what it was.
> 
> When a creature has regeneration and is hit by something that it is not vulnerable to it take subdual damage, instead of normal damage.
> 
> ...




Fast Healing 5 is actually an ability provided on an earlier menu.  I wanted an ability that would allow an astral construct to regenerate even after hitting 0 hit points.  And it should take real damage from epic weapons.  Basically they take the equivalent of subdual damage and are disabled if they take equivalent subdual damage equal to their current hit points, but they will eventually heal back if not destroyed otherwise.  That was the idea.


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## Kelleris (Nov 3, 2004)

True.  I just don't want anyone thinking that a character _overall_ will be (necessarily) weaker due to splitting their resources.  Assuming you can dig up some clever synergies and useful tactics, that need not be the case at all.  In specific things you're liable to be weaker, of course, but a global concern for character effectiveness shouldn't stop someone from trying to manage two schticks.

In fact, I think that a well-done epic/high-level character can pick up a second subset of talents with little in the way of opportunity cost.  For a full-on fighter character, say, devoting 2-3 feats, a half-million gold, and maybe an epic feat to some other group of abilities will dramatically increase the level of those abilities over the base level, while diluting pure combat monstrousness only slightly.


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## Wrahn (Nov 3, 2004)

Ferrix said:
			
		

> Fast Healing 5 is actually an ability provided on an earlier menu.  I wanted an ability that would allow an astral construct to regenerate even after hitting 0 hit points.  And it should take real damage from epic weapons.  Basically they take the equivalent of subdual damage and are disabled if they take equivalent subdual damage equal to their current hit points, but they will eventually heal back if not destroyed otherwise.  That was the idea.




I was pretty sure you were not attempting to make them invulnerable, it is just a side effect of what you wanted.

If you look at what I suggested at the bottom, (the only disabled at 0 hit points) fits your description.  Maybe add, is only disabled at 0 hit points or lower, unless brought there by epic damage.  /shrug

I would imagine that Isida wouldn't have any trouble doing it your way either.  It was just something that occured to me.


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## Ferrix (Nov 3, 2004)

Yeah...  Sorta like:

Regeneration 5 (Ex): Epic weapons do real damage.  Real damage is converted into "subdual damage" to which the construct is not immune.  Still retains immunity to normal subdual damage.


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## Ferrix (Nov 3, 2004)

Updated Architect in the RG


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## Kelleris (Nov 3, 2004)

Okay, I have stats here for my special weapon, Akumunaga, the Serpent's Nightmare.  I like to have one "special" item for my high-level characters, and this is it.  I don't foresee and problems with the other things, since they're pretty much standard items, according to their respective sources.  This one's long, though, so fair warning:

(pricing follows after weapon description)



> *Akumunaga, the Serpent’s Nightmare –* This weapon is the sacred blade of the Mugenaga ninja clan, and has a long history stretching back some eleven centuries.  The weapon appears to be a battered, but still useable, ninja-to.  It is utterly unassuming in appearance.  The more its abilities are called upon, however, the more sinister its aspect; it soon becomes obvious that the weapon is a decidedly deadly one, and it has indeed slain hundreds of people over the centuries.
> 
> The basic enchantments of _Akumunaga_ make it a _+5 vicious, wounding ninja-to_ (base statistics as a rapier).  When the _vicious_ special ability is activated _Akumunaga_ emits an almost invisible dull red glow; this glow can only be spotted in pitch darkness, and doing so requires a DC 30 Spot check.  There is no penalty to the wielder’s Hide checks while this ability is active.  In addition to dealing 1 point of Constitution damage with every blow, the sword can drain blood 3 times per day, dealing an additional 1d6 points of Constitution damage.  When it does so, a Rokugani rune appears inscribed in red on the blade, near the hilt.  Touching this symbol and uttering the phrase “a serpent’s life is venom” in Rokugani allows the wielder of _Akumunaga_ to gain temporary hit points, as though the _false life_ spell were cast on him by a 10th-level caster.  This requires a standard action.  The symbol fades if the wielder draws on it in this way, and it will fade on its own after 24 hours in any case.
> 
> ...




     320 [weapon base price]
 98,000 [_+5_, _wounding_, _vicious_]
 10,000 [thinaun material]
 18,000 [_rapier of puncturing_ ability]
 10,800 [_false life_ at 10th level 3/day, halved for heavily restricted use]
 32,000 [_closing blade_ ability]
150,000 [_true resurrection_ 1/month, restricted use, thinaun discount]
 40,000 [_assassin's dagger_ ability, doubled bonus]
 20,000 [_sword of subtlety_ ability]
 29,000 [_vanishing blade_ ability twice]
 99,000 [_hammer of sacrifice_ ability 10x, restricted use, stacking similar abilities]
 26,400 [_oathbow_ special ability, slightly modified]
270,000 [_nightmare_ heightened to 10th level at will, heavily restricted use]
 72,000 [slotless +6 enhancement to Charisma for _Akumunaga_]
100,000 [ability to bring back _Akumunaga_ if attuned via Item Familiar]
 20,000 [_foretelling blade_ ability, doubled for wider application]
120,000 [3 wishes, as _luck blade_]
225,000 [regenerates 1 _wish_ per month]
----------------------------------
1,330,520 gold pieces total

Although I went ahead and listed everything here, there's so much going on that it's really more of a judgment call for you, Isida.  Does the price look right?  Also, some of the listed abilties are from Item Familiar, rolled into the item description.


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## Wrahn (Nov 3, 2004)

It is a cool weapon, very epic.  

Mechanically there is a bunch of stuff I have no idea what it is, the only thing that I know is an error cost wise is the wish.  Isida may want to ignore it, because it is ridiculously expensive:

When making an item with uses at will or per day/week/year there is a base cost, this is (Caster Level)*(Spell Level)*1,800.  For your particular weapon that would be 9*21*1800= 340,200.

This is the part which is REALLY expensive.  When you have determined the base cost, you then add in the extra cost.  This is not modified by the number of uses per day other than if it is at will it is as if it had 100 charges, if it is a per day than it is as if it had 50 charges.  If the spell costs experience than 5*the experience cost per charge so 5*5,000*50 = 1,250,000gp.  This is added onto the final cost.

Since the rules in the SRD don't give rules for the 1/month useage, I am going to make up my own as once per week is 1/6 the cost, once per month is 1/7th the cost, so the final total would be 48,600 + 1,250,000 = 1,298,600.

Truthfully though, that is monumentally overpriced.

Balance wise I think it is an incredibly powerful and versatile weapon, but this is an epic game and that is appropriate.

What I would do, were I the Game Master is wave my hands, charge 1,330,520 gp and say it was an artifact (which it is) and not worry too much about the price.


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## Ferrix (Nov 3, 2004)

Really the extra cost is poorly designed, it should be included before modifiers for uses per day, etc. get factored in.  But that's just my design opinion.

And they do provide rules for once a month actually so long as you take it as a standard 30 day month.

Charges per day is factored at #times per day divided by 5.  Thus if it's useable once per 30 days, that's 1/30th time per day divided by 5, which comes to 1/150th per day.

If we do it my design way:  340,200 (base) + 1,250,000 (extra) = 10,601gp.  Which is vastly underpriced obviously.

But I'd say it'd be on the same level as the true resurrect 1/month (same level spell, one has an xp cost of 5000, the other a material cost of 25000gp, which are by the rules basically equivalent since XP costs are multiplied by 5 for gp value).  That would cost 200,000gp as is listed under the special abilities for intelligent items.  Which comes out to about a 1/8th multiplier for 1/month.


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## Wrahn (Nov 3, 2004)

Ferrix said:
			
		

> Really the extra cost is poorly designed, it should be included before modifiers for uses per day, etc. get factored in.  But that's just my design opinion.
> 
> And they do provide rules for once a month actually so long as you take it as a standard 30 day month.
> 
> Charges per day is factored at #times per day divided by 5.  Thus if it's useable once per 30 days, that's 1/30th time per day divided by 5, which comes to 1/150th per day.




Yeah, the 1/150th cost is too cheap, WAY too cheap.  Assuming the cost is included in the base cost:

(340,600 + 1,250,000)/150/5 = 53,020gp for wish 5/month.  That easily replaces the 825,000gp for the Manual/Tomes.

Even without the Extra Cost A Sonic, Quickened, Empowered, Intensified, Doubled (Can't recall the source of that feat or the specific name of it, but it is +6 level and causes a duplicate spell to be cast immediately after the first) Meteor Swarm (Doing 660 pts of damage on average) once per month costs 55*28*1,800/150 = 18,480gp

Now what I suggested may be too punitive, it was quick and easy and was only used in illustration of a point, but extrapolating out the uses per day to uses per month makes it too cheap.

And while I agree with you in principle about the extra cost, I think they put that in there specifically to avoid people taking incredibly powerful spells and making them 1/day.

For reference I have a couple of items built with extra cost factored in, so I am arguing against myself when I say that.


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## Kelleris (Nov 3, 2004)

Truth be told, I pretty much just ad-hoced that particular ability.  I did the math for it, thought "yikes, that's way too high, I could buy a whole sack of _rings of three wishes_ for that much."  I wound up putting it pretty close to the cost for _true resurrection_ 1/month, but I don't actually know where the extra smidge of gold came from.    

Well, that was the number written down on my planning doc, anyway...    

Glad you like, though!  Kinda surprised anyone took the time to read it all the way through (aside from Isida, of course).  I'm going to go back and improve the prose and add a more detailed personality section later.

If this is okay, I'm done except for figuring out how I want to assign all those Perform ranks (110!) to the improved bardic music things from _Dragon 301_.  Since you wanted to start tomorrow, of all times, I'm going to work at it and finish tonight, at least all the heavy DM-approval stuff.  Background may take longer.


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Nov 3, 2004)

Gentlemen, if the bickering and rules-mongering doesn't stop, I will ban people from making up their own items, and just go back to pre-made items, with possible combinations thereof.  Be conservative, my patience is running out.  Final warning.


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## Wrahn (Nov 3, 2004)

Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> Gentlemen, if the bickering and rules-mongering doesn't stop, I will ban people from making up their own items, and just go back to pre-made items, with possible combinations thereof.  Be conservative, my patience is running out.  Final warning.




Isida,

I think you are reading too much into this.  At least from my perspective, I am not arguing.  This is simple discussion about the rules and how they are applied.  I have learned a few things in this discussion.  I hope perhaps people have learned a few things from me.

Understanding the rules, especially the complex character we are building, it helps to have people backstop you.  I understand that it can be frustrating to see people second guess you, but personally I would prefer to get it right, under your understanding of the rules than to have problems come up later.

But if this is causing you to get annoyed, I will keep my comments to myself, you are a participant in the game as much as any of us and I am not trying to annoy anyone, least of all you.


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## Wrahn (Nov 3, 2004)

OneAboveAll-

Since we are starting tomorrow at the latest, do you mind if I put something together for you based on what you said you wanted?  (I don't own requiem for a God, so I can't include the Divinely Infused part, but certainly could leave room for it if you can give me an idea of the LA).

I am sure that Isida will give you a little leeway in modifying it to your desires even after we start.


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## Kelleris (Nov 3, 2004)

Isida, was that directed at what I posted?      I can understand the aggravation of getting up to 16 pages on the strength of item pricing discussions, but I would really like to have my one special item, especially since I get to have some fun with it due to all this gold that's flying around.

Maybe you would like me to give you a stripped-down version of Akumunaga without all the flavor text?  That would make it easier to look over, anyway.


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Nov 3, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Isida,
> 
> I think you are reading too much into this.  At least from my perspective, I am not arguing.  This is simple discussion about the rules and how they are applied.  I have learned a few things in this discussion.  I hope perhaps people have learned a few things from me.
> 
> ...



  I know you guys are just having a rules discussion, I just don't want to have to keep nit-picking this for the next two weeks, if you know what I mean.  Sigh.  I'm just frustrated.


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## Kelleris (Nov 3, 2004)

I'm pretty sure we've hammered almost everything out on our end, anyway, so that shouldn't be a problem.

In any case, we're just arguing over guidelines.  If you make a ruling on any given item, that's that.  We're just arguing over the numbers we're showing you, really.  You can ignore all this pricing stuff without shirking your DMly duties a bit.  _I_ probably would!


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Nov 4, 2004)

Anyway, ignoring pricing, I'm sure you lovely smart people can figure them out for yourself.

Please get your characters up and in the same format as the sample character (with the exception of histories for magic items or further explanations of powers) as soon as possible.

I shall be putting up an In Character thread by tomorrow morning, wherein you guys can plot and plan your revenge or whatever.  There was an old question as to if Fairweather (the sample character) would be adventuring with you guys.  The answer is yes and no.  She will be a contemporary of pervias' character, and help maintain the small druidic grove that is the last scrap of land from the Endless Falls.  She's going to essentially hold down the fort for you all, and provide a hidden base for other survivors of the Endless Falls to return to, if necessary.


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## Wrahn (Nov 4, 2004)

Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> Anyway, ignoring pricing, I'm sure you lovely smart people can figure them out for yourself.
> 
> Please get your characters up and in the same format as the sample character (with the exception of histories for magic items or further explanations of powers) as soon as possible.






Rahveon is in the correct format, correct?


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Nov 4, 2004)

Yuppers.


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## TheOneAboveAll (Nov 4, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> OneAboveAll-
> 
> Since we are starting tomorrow at the latest, do you mind if I put something together for you based on what you said you wanted?  (I don't own requiem for a God, so I can't include the Divinely Infused part, but certainly could leave room for it if you can give me an idea of the LA).
> 
> I am sure that Isida will give you a little leeway in modifying it to your desires even after we start.





Wrahn,

That would be great, I would really appreciate it.  I thought I might have another week or so [work is kind of killing me with over time].  I hope one day to be able to repay you some how.

Again thanks.


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Nov 4, 2004)

Wrahn, what's your e-mail address?  I can help you with the rest of One's character.  Or do you have an AIM or Yahoo name?  Look under my avatar.


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## Ferrix (Nov 4, 2004)

Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> Gentlemen, if the bickering and rules-mongering doesn't stop, I will ban people from making up their own items, and just go back to pre-made items, with possible combinations thereof.  Be conservative, my patience is running out.  Final warning.




Hope it didn't come off as this, it's a habit to just go on and on about different ideas and interpretations.  We should probably do it elsewhere, sorry Isida.  No harm intended.  Just friendly banter is all (at least from my end).


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Nov 4, 2004)

It's ok Ferrix, the DM was just having a bout of frustration after looking at all the dancing numbers doing the can-can.


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## Wrahn (Nov 4, 2004)

My email is Wrahnn(at)yahoo(dot)com


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Nov 4, 2004)

Wrahn, you've got mail!


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## Ferrix (Nov 4, 2004)

Looking at the divinely infused template that's pretty sweet I have to say.


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## Wrahn (Nov 4, 2004)

Out of time, will try to post it tomorrow morning.

Right now I am looking at 10 Cleric/10 Fist of Raziel/1 Contemplative Divinely Infused, Half Celestial Saint who uses his spells to enhance himself to be a powerful combatant.


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## Ferrix (Nov 4, 2004)

That's a lot of templates Wrahn and a massive level adjustment.  A 9HD difference for some reason wouldn't appeal too much to me, despite the abilities offered by that +9 LA.

I'd drop the half-celestial and keep the divinely infused and perhaps saint as well.  That's just me.


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## Kelleris (Nov 4, 2004)

*yawn*

Arion's up in the Rogue's Gallery.


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## Ferrix (Nov 4, 2004)

only thing i'm gonna mention is i think you only get bonus languages from high intelligence when you are level 1.  Thus you don't gain any more when your intelligence gets higher from level adjustments, etc.

Also in your attributes, you might want to show where you put your level adjustments, your starting rolls, etc. like most of us have done.

Sleepy time...

The Architects' gear info and other descriptive stuff coming tomorrow...


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## perivas (Nov 4, 2004)

Finally, after some soul-searching, Caira is up and running.  The final interpretation is a dryad cleric of the Green Goddess / alienist / thaumaturgist / cosmic descryer.  She'll mostly be powered by her ability to summon allies, along with her trusty treant guardian.


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## Kelleris (Nov 4, 2004)

Nuts.  Stupid skills always throwing me off.  Okay, I edited the languages - thanks for pointing that out.  Had to divert a few skill points, though.

Ferrix, is there anything else you'd like to comment on?  This is still in the  constructive criticism stage, I suppose.  Anyway, thanks for looking it over.    

Wrahn, I noticed that one of your items features a fey assassin that almost gets you.  Can I volunteer for that role?      If so, I'd probably have taken the opportunity to hit you with _Akumunaga_ before I left you to your fate, so you might want to add a slightly darker edge to the description.  Well, that's my M.O., anyway, at least against big hulky types like your character.


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## Kelleris (Nov 4, 2004)

Does anyone here have _Song and Silence_?

There are 4 new assassin spells in there.  If you could give me a quick summary of what they do, I'd be eternally grateful.


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## Zack2216 (Nov 4, 2004)

Well, let's see here.

Spring sheath- lvl 1 assassin spell, automatically draws a weapon (you enchant a sheath, and you basically have use of the quick draw feat for 10 min./level)

Getaway- lvl 2 assassin spell, causes pursuers to go astray 50% of the time, 10 min/level

Absorb Weapon- lvl 3 assassin spell, hides a weapon inside your arm, 1hr./level

Sniper's eye- lvl 4 assassin spell, grants darkvision, ranged sneak attacks can be made up to 60 ft., death attack with a ranged weapon made possible, and +15 on spot checks, if you move from a specific spot you lose the benefits until you return, 1 round/level


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Nov 4, 2004)

I think I'd also prefer not to use the Saint template, as that indicates the gods' favor, which you guys are lacking just a bit.


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## Rikandur Azebol (Nov 4, 2004)

*Fascinating possibilities.*

Hello everybody !

I had just read about the Scions, and I'm quite interested in eventual joining. After reading creation rules posted by DM Isida, I had written character "on the knee" and I'm willing to ask other, visibly more experienced with Epic D&D
Players, and DM if she would spare a moment of her priceless time for it, about my "raw" maug fighter.

Tsunami,  Maug Epic Fighter, Alignment: Lawful Good

Str: 36 +13 (+6 lvl, +5 Inherent)      
Dex: 23 +6  (+5 Inherent)     
Con: -                
Int: 19 +4  (+5 Inherent)          
Wis: 17 +3  (+5 Inherent)            
Cha: 23 +6  (+5 Inherent, +4 enhancement)             

Level: 25 Fighter, 2 Construct   XP: 443,001 
BAB: +21( -1 Size)                  HP: 267 (27d10 +57)
Grapple: +34                          Speed: 140'          
Init: +6 (+6 Dex)                
AC: 45(-1 Size, +5 Dex, +12 Natural, +12 Armour, +8 Braces, +4 Shield, +5 Deflection )

Meele Weapon : Scimitar +41 AB, d8 +20 magic dmg.
Ranged Weapon : Longbow  +32 AB, 2d6 +13 normal dmg.

Class and Racial Abilities:
Construct traits, Fighter bonus feats, Pulverize, OC 39, +4 Racial bonus for Craft (Stonemasonry) and Knowledge (Architecture and Enginerring), Grafts.

Feats: (6 standard, 10 Fighter Bonus, 3 Epic, 2 Fighter Epic)
Alterness (Racial)
Nymph's Kiss (Exlated)
Weapon Focus: Scimitar (FB)
Combat Expertise (FB)
Iron Will
Weapon Specialisation: Scimitar (FB)
Run
Improved Critical Hit: Scimitar (FB)
Mighty Leaping
Dodge (FB)
Mobility (FB)
Great Fortitude
Spring Attack (FB)
Large and in Charge
Improved Toughness (FB)
Fleet of Foot
Whirlwind Attack (FB)
Epic Fortitude
Improved Whirlwind Attack (FEB)
Epic Weapon Focus :Scimitar (FEB)
Epic Speed
Legendary Leaper

Languages: Common, Elven, Celestial.

Saves:.......Base: Ability: Other: Magic: Final:
Fort...........+14.....+0......+6......+5......+25
Ref............+8.......+6.......-.......+5......+19
Will............+8.......+3......+2......+5......+18

Skill Points: 164/7      Max Ranks: 30/15
Skills:........................Ranks...Mod......Syn...Misc..Total
Climb.........................28......+13(Str)...-......-2....+39
Craft (Stonemasonry)...28......+4 (Int)....-......+4....+36
Handle Animal.............28......+6 (Cha)...-......-......+34
Intimidate..................28......+6 (Cha)...-......-.....+34
Jump.........................28......+13(Str)...-....+92...+133
Diplomacy(CrossClass)..6.......+6 (Cha)...-......-.....+12
Craft(Bowmaking)........12......+4 (Int)....-.......-.....+16

Equipment: (295 gp left)
Internal Shrudder Plate (8000 gp)
Maug graft, giving tremorsense 15'. Tsunami, unlike other Maug have very acute sense of touch. Wich allows her to sense even the smallest movements and fight against foes even blinded.

"Heart Guardian" Cloak of Protection, +5 Resistance bonus to saves, +5 Enhancement bonus to Natural Armour (87,500 gp)
*Cloaks like this are made for Heart Guard Champion, because old Champion's cloak is buried with him. Unfortunately, Tsunami is a last Champion ... so when she will fall in battle there will be nobody to bury her with all glory.*

"Loyalty" Ring of Greater Elemental Resistance, Ironskin and Rapid Healing (1,174,000 gp)
Rapid Healing was customized to repair constructs, no other creature would benefit from this power.
*This badge of honor and utter loyalty for the Golden Empress was bestowed upon Tsunami for defending palace against overhelming odds for 180 days. Then also Tsunami get infamous title of Thousand Men Slayer.*

"Protectors" Braces of Defense +8 (64,000 gp)
*After bathing in the Endless Falls, many common items possesed by Tsunami gained great power. My archer's braces started emanating protective aura.*

"Wavesplitter" Large, Wounding, Keen, Throwing and Returning Scimitar +5 (200,500 gp)
*This blade is ancient, but elusive marid Wavesplitter were just smiling mysteriously when questioned about his gift. It's simple looks hide well the real power slumbering inside. So I named it after him.*

"Devotion" Mithral Shield of Exceptional Arrow Deflection +2 (1,001,000 gp)
*After particular battle in wich rebelling warlock hired giants who nearly killed Golden Empress, throwing great boulders at unexpected range. It is Tsunami who were nearly destroyed while shielding wounded Empress with her own body. Empress gifted her personal Champion with this shield, to prevent such incidents in the future. How wrong she were.*

"Golden General" Glamered Warlord's Breastplate (418,900 gp)
*Book of War states that leader must be seen by his soldiers. All Maug teachings agree on that that without faith in the discipline, army breaks. It's consitency depends on leader. And nothing increases morale more than trustworthy general who also is impressive. That's why I ordered creation of impressive looking breatplate ... And since Her August Higness, may she rule untroubled, ordered me to wear things ... unpractical, charm was placed on the armour to make it look as fashion demands. Again, bath in Endless Falls magnified it's potency tenfold.*

"Indepedence" Ring of Freedom of Movement, Feather Fall and Protection +5 (113,300 gp)
*A token of admiration from Toul'esvirr ... poet full of rhymes and melancholy, only if he would appreciate something avaible to him. No, he must admire  impossibility ! But, from other side ... he were seeming happy just to hang around and create poems about my exploits. I don't understand what romantic he sees in the war ? He seen enough of it to know reality ... Guess that all fleshborn are crazy.*

"Earth's Child Mark" Torc of Jumping, +30 Insight bonus to Jump checks (180,000 gp)
*Druids dwelling in the Empire teach us that all and every one of us is a child of earth's soil. For me it were doubly true ... my very flesh were crafted from earth bones. And this torc is a mark of favour given to remind me of that fact.*

Sandals of Swiftness (256,000 gp)
*"You are so slow and clumsy." Her August Higness, may she rule in peace, told me oneday ... And the next day one of her admirers presented me with pair of beautiful sandals. But I don't allowed him to sing in Moon's Garden. And thanked him, as is properly.*

"Three Oaks" Large,Composite Longbow of Distance +5 with max. Strength Bonus +13 (73,800 gp)
*To enter Spring Festival's archery contest I needed a bow. And with the help of fine elven bowmakers this masterpiece was created. And Spring Festival have gained a new event for archers. Straining Tsunami's Bow. Many Champion wannabees resigned after this first test of their might. Those who suceeded without aid were rarer than educated orc. Unless they were Giants, of course.*

"Giant Beltpurse" Bag of Holding, type VI (10,000 gp)
*This beltpurse was spoil of capturing famous Giant bandit, Stonehead.*

"Hard Training" Equivalent of Manual of Gainful Exercise, Manual of Quickness of Action, Tome of Clear Thought, Tome of leadership and influence and Tome of understanding. All +5 (687,500 gp)
*It were a rare honour, to be chosen for personal training with great Thulkarr ... Requiments were high, even for me. And in the end I heard that with such soft heart I should go farming, not to war. Venerable old bastards, I like them even more now, knowing some of them.*

"Leprechaun's Quiver" (4,700 gp)
Mix of Efficient Quiver with Handy Haversac, to give Handy properity to the quiver. 
*I never understanded, and probably will never understand fey ... One day She claims to hate me all her heart for stamping on her garden during the fight. Next day she gives me with quiver, to not spill arrows like she said.*

"Stoneshatter" Maul of the Titans (25,305 gp)
*When, shortly after the Giant's War, rumour spread about Giant destroying mountain peaks for sport ... Dwarves petitioned their liege, Golden Empress, to do something ... for they would go to the war instantly and wipe out their hated foes forever. She send me, and her best tracker ... And we killed murderously insane, nameless Titan. I took his hammer to return someday and enscribe name on his gravestone. Now it's impossible ... I have nowhere to return.*

"Endless Falls Blessing" Pearl of the Sirines (30,600 gp)
Irremovable, that is what doubled the cost. 
*Oneday, Her August Majesty wished to see sacred falls for herself, wich granted her bloodline with eternal youth. As usual she understimated strength of the stream and nearly drowned ... I didn't knew that I can swim that fast. Everybody say that after the unwanted bath I look more alive, and my hair despite being of marble started moving like those of fleshborn. She spotted that and ordered me to keep my hair right to the fashion ... sigh.*

"Icon" Phylactery of Faithfulness (1000 gp)
*Sometimes all we need to remember who we are is small reminder. This icon of Her August Majesty is such reminder for me.*

Scabbard of Keen Edges(16,000 gp)
*To keep my sword sheated, that was the purpouse of scabbard. After the bath it keep my blade sharp and keen. But I won't fire lieutenant just because of that. It simply decreased amount of his duties.*

"Mark of the Golden Champion" Headband of Telepathy (27,000 gp)
*All who came before Golden Throne, came with their minds open and hearts pure ... that's a duty of Golden Champion.*

Luckstone (Nonmagical)
*I was born as soldier, and will never forgot my begginings. And since this piece of Acheron's land kept me alive trough my many exploits, battles, wars and adventures ... Soldiers need something to have faith in.*

"Gold Oak seeds" 49 Feather Tokens, Trees. (19,600 gp)
*Like old druid once said. Be ready to give something in place of this what You take. Since during the Dragon War in one of vassal kingdoms, all their forests were burned down. Golden Empress sent me with these oak seeds from her gardens ... as a sign of compassion. I hate diplomatic work, when did everybody imagined me to be some paladin or what ?*

Personality: 
Typically for a Maug, Tsunami understand everything trough prism of war. But unlike most of them her's prolonged contact with other creatures, especially citizens of the Golden Empire, opened her horizons ... a bit. Tsunami found purpouse in her eternal struggles to became better warrior. Selfperfection, to burn out weaknesses in the heat of conflict and arise better in the end than in the beggining. That's her main motivation. And unflinching loyalty towards Golden Empire.

Outlook: 
On the first look, she is like goddes of war ... More thoroughly look will reveal shocking truth. She is living statue of breathtakingly perfect woman, a work of genius ... devoted completly to his masterpiece. Gold marble was crafted in such way, that it create illusion of living flesh. Illusion deepens when she moves, because perfectly scluptured muscles move beneath golden skin as if part of living body. Even marble hair move like cirrus of gold in the wind, strong enough to move them. All doubts are dissapearing with touch. Even barest contact reveal that it is marble, despite that that it move like flesh. Her armaments are functional first, of great quality wich is visible because all are masterpieces on their own.

Background:
"Hey, Angel ! Do You remeber our last meeting ? Thou saved my existence, and this of my brethen. Since I heard that You like elefants, and don't want any rewards ... I had scluptured this image of one of the elefant-warriors from my homeland. Please, accept this small gift ..."
Planetar blushed, seeing smiling faces all around and moving her hands halfway towards the figurine of zovar wielding elefant-man, carved precisely from golden marble, very similiar to the hands that were giving it to her. Figurine was raising weapon above his head, it's expression so convicing that it were half expected that little warrior will cry his victory to the skyes at any moment. Perfectly scluptured face of a nymph was directed towards undecided Planetar, when her's face crossed emotion resembling slight worry.
"Why thou came here just now, Tsunami the Maug ?"
Asked celestial, finally reciving her gift ... her eyes filled with compassion.
"Her August Majesty decided that I should go ... And since peace finally returned to the Golden Empire, I had no work and were thrashing around and spoiling good marble. Is new offensive coming at the Bastion ?"
Asked Maug, easying her stance, as if to ready herself for inmediate fight.
"No, champion of light. I just heard strange gossip, that's all ..."
Maug laughed heartily, showing all teeth in joyfull grimace. Wich were bit unnerving to those knowing her, because Tsunami was smiling similiar way in the heat of battle.
"That the dark forces will invade my homeland ? They already did. We stopped them, and eradicated army sent against us. Great battles that will be remembered for thousands of years !"
Planetar surrouded herself with her wings as if suddenly frozen. She looked away and spoke with sad tone.
"I wasn't speaking of this ... Maybe it was just gossip. Do You need a _Gate_ to Your home ?"
Maug smiled from ear to ear, and bowed her head to the Planetar.
"I will owe You. I'm thousandfold gratefull ... Could You open it to the kingdom of Yinshin ? I have gift for druids dwelling there."
Planetar nodded, unusually quiet, and recited the spell. With loud thunderclap gate opened wide. But on the other side wasn't burned wasteland of Yinshin kingdom ... There was nothingness. Grey vortex very similar to Astral Plane, bun not it. Surrouding celestial warriors opened their eyes in wide shock of the whole situation, and Planetar dropped to her knees, disbelief written all over her face, hugging desperately figurine of the elefant warrior. She whispered.
"It cannot be ..."
Maug stared straigh into the terryfing abyss where once was her homeworld. 
"That's why she sent me away ... trough Bastion of Hope as well."
And Tsunami stepped into the gate, sinking momentarily into the abyss of nothingness. Grim faced Solar stopped one of the celestials who wanted to step in her trail.
"Don't ... Maug could wanted to die with her homeworld. It's her right. We have duties here. Eansha, could You close this gate ... please ? Let's spill blood of evil responsible for this destruction !"
Boomed Solar with powerful voice, raising troop's morale a bit after this dark event. And he looked at gathering hordes of demonkind.
"Chmm ... If nail is standing out, it will be rammed in line. That's why Demons will never give up. Come on folks ! We have fight to make."
Angels and others soldiers of light assembled on the fortress walls. Demonic roars filled etarnal night surrounding them.

Impatiently waiting for Your's opinions. A little improvement was made.


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Nov 4, 2004)

perivas - SR 70?!  How did that come about?  Also, where can I find the Cosmic Descryer?

Kelleris - What does _Akumunaga, the Serpent’s Nightmare_ do?  It's very expensive, it must do something...

Also, remember to list the source of anything that's not from the core books.

Rikandur - Welcome!  I'll take the time to look over your character later, but tell me, what is a Maug and where is it from?  And how did it become a construct, and which rules did you use for it?


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## Wrahn (Nov 4, 2004)

Kelleris said:
			
		

> Wrahn, I noticed that one of your items features a fey assassin that almost gets you.  Can I volunteer for that role?      If so, I'd probably have taken the opportunity to hit you with _Akumunaga_ before I left you to your fate, so you might want to add a slightly darker edge to the description.  Well, that's my M.O., anyway, at least against big hulky types like your character.




It would be kind of cool if our characters had a history together, but remember, Rahveon is built for punishment.  He is immensely resilent, standing against him, I agree, would be a mistake.  But chances are he is going to make the DC 42 Will save.  

I would suggest the scenario where you struck him with the blade and ran, he gave chase, and you let him follow you, waited for him to weaken, but he never did and he kept coming.  Finally you lead him to the Shining Grotto, hoping the Faeries there would slow or stop him, which they did and you made your escape.


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## Wrahn (Nov 4, 2004)

Ferrix said:
			
		

> That's a lot of templates Wrahn and a massive level adjustment.  A 9HD difference for some reason wouldn't appeal too much to me, despite the abilities offered by that +9 LA.
> 
> I'd drop the half-celestial and keep the divinely infused and perhaps saint as well.  That's just me.




For what it is worth, for the most part I agree.  But it is what OneAboveAll wanted, I was just running with it.

No saint template  (That was the best bang for the LA)

What do people think of the Planetar ECL?  I am thinking 16 Racial Hit Dice +10 to +12 level adjust.  Using the Tulani (in the BoED to compare it to).

OneAboveAll-

What do you think of a build like like what I posted for Talariel?  Why be half Celestial when you can be the whole thing?  I am going to make a Build close to Talariel and see what you think.


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## Kangaxx (Nov 4, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> For what it is worth, for the most part I agree.  But it is what OneAboveAll wanted, I was just running with it.
> 
> No saint template  (That was the best bang for the LA)
> 
> ...




A problem that occurs to me with this idea is that full celestials are servants of the gods, not scions of the endless falls.  While you could explain the celestial rebelling for some reason, it would be a completely different character.

This brings up something else I was wondering about - Isida, are clerical characters still going to be receiving spells from gods?   That would be a little odd after they tried to kill us all.  Perhaps the Endless Falls infused them with the ability to supply their own magic?

Edit: Also, I added Pilmer's spellbook, so I'm ready to roll.


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## Kelleris (Nov 4, 2004)

Isida - _Akumunaga_ is my signature weapon.  I posted the write-up earlier in the thread.  It can also be found near the bottom of my character sheet.  For what it's worth, it seemed to get through the peanut gallery.

Since I obliquely mentioned it and you didn't say anything, I assumed it was okay, until further notice at least.

Zack2216 - Thanks!  Does _getaway_ allow a saving throw?  If it doesn't, I think I'll grab it.  Otherwise, a DC 24 Will save just isn't going to pull its weight.

Wrahn - Yeah, that's what I had in mind.  However, there's no real reason _Akumunaga's_ nightmare effect wouldn't affect you.  For one thing, the save DCs been more or less the same since I got it, while I doubt this event occurred when you were already 30th level and all geared up.  Even if it had, and you had your full listed save bonus, it would have dropped to at best 34 after Rahveon had "all of his possessions stolen, [was] covered in bruises, [and] [had] been unable to sleep for days."  That's at least a 1-in-3 shot, and much better if you hadn't yet cheesed up on Holy Liberator.

Also, there's always the natural 1.  One of the virtues of that attack is that I can just keep hitting you with it until it drives you crazy or I decide not to use it anymore.  It's very assassin-y like that.  Presumably you either caught up with me and convinced/coerced me to end the effect, or the resident Faerie Queen told me in no uncertain terms to knock it off.

Actually, I'm kinda bothered by your save bonuses.  They're 10-20 points higher than mine, and the holy liberator thing just seems gratuitous in the extreme.  At those levels, I don't think a single spell, item, or effect that the entire party can muster can force you to roll higher than a 3 to save.


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## perivas (Nov 4, 2004)

Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> perivas - SR 70?!  How did that come about?  Also, where can I find the Cosmic Descryer?




Well, there's no limit to the Spell Resistance spell and if you look at the mantles of spell resistance and epic spell resistance, they both adhere to the simple formula (SR rating - 11) * 10,000gp.  Therefore, it seems to make sense that one could just keep going with it.  I'll dial it back if you want, but it's pretty straight up.

Cosmic Descryer is an epic prestige class from the SRD (or Epic Level Handbook?).  I'm not sure myself as I was using just the SRD.


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## TheOneAboveAll (Nov 4, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> For what it is worth, for the most part I agree.  But it is what OneAboveAll wanted, I was just running with it.
> 
> No saint template  (That was the best bang for the LA)
> 
> ...





I will abide by your better judgement, although I must admit losing out on the saint template hurts a little.  I have not seen the Talariel post could you guide me to it?


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## Kelleris (Nov 4, 2004)

Perivas, while using the guidelines to come up with nifty items is fine, I do think we have a responsibility to the DM and our fellow players to be reasonable.  You've basically made yourself immune to any spell or ability that allows spell resistance, which really ties Isida's hands.  Just because you _can_ do something doesn't mean you should.


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## Wrahn (Nov 4, 2004)

Name: 
Race: Trumpet Archon (Outsider, Lawful, Good)
Class: ECL 8/Outsider 12/Cleric 6/Hierophant 3/Contemplative 1
Alignment: Lawful Good
Height: 
Weight:
Eyes:
Hair:
Complexion:

Strength 34 (+12) (13, +10 Race, +5 Inherent, +6 Enhancement)
Dexterity 26 (+8) (10, +6 Race, +4 Inherent, +6 Enhancement)
Constitution 34 (+12) (12, +12 Race, +4 Inherent, +6 Enhancement)
Intelligence 20 (+5) (10, +6 Race, +4 Inherent)
Wisdom 44 (+17) (16, +6 Race, +5 Level, +5 Inherent, +12 Enhancement)
Charisma 28 (+9) (12, +6 Race, +4 Inherent, +6 Enhancement)

Hit Points: 540 (8d8 + 12d8+7d8+1d6+2d8+360)

AC 68 (10, +8 Armor, +19 Natural, +5 Deflection, +17 Wisdom, +8 Dexterity, +1 Unamed)

Attack: 51/51/46/41/36 (20 BAB, +12 Strength, +5 Weapon, +5 Epic, +1 Competence, +4 Morale, +1 Haste, +3 Luck)

Damage: 1d6 Fire + 1d6 Cold + 1d6 Acid + 1d6 Sonic + 1d6 Electrical + 2d6 + 26 (+18 Strength + 3 Luck + 5 Enhancement) +1 Con damage +2d6 versus Evil

Saves:

Fort +49 (16 Base +12 Con, +5 Resistance, +9 Cha, +1 Epic, +1 Luck, +1 Competence, +4 Morale)
Reflex +40 (10 Base, +8 Dex, +5 Resistance, +9 Cha, +1 Epic, +1 Luck, +1 Competence, +4 Morale, +1 Haste)
Will +54 (16 Base, +17 Wis, +5 Resistance, +9 Cha, +1 Epic, +1 Luck, +1 Competence, +4 Morale)


Racial Abilities

—Darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision.
—Aura of Menace (Su): A righteous aura surrounds archons that fight or get angry. Any hostile creature within a 20-foot radius of an archon must succeed on a Will save DC 28. Those who fail take a –2 penalty on attacks, AC, and saves for 24 hours or until they successfully hit the archon that generated the aura. A creature that has resisted or broken the effect cannot be affected again by the same archon’s aura for 24 hours.
—Immunity to electricity and petrification.
— +4 racial bonus on saves against poison.
—Magic Circle against Evil (Su): A magic circle against evil effect always surrounds an archon (caster level 22).
—Teleport (Su): Archons can use greater teleport at will, as the spell (caster level 14th), except that the creature can transport only itself and up to 50 pounds of objects.
—Tongues (Su): All archons can speak with any creature that has a language, as though using a tongues spell (caster level 14th). This ability is always active.
—Spell-Like Abilities: At will—detect evil, continual flame, message. Caster level 12th.
—Trumpet (Su): An archon’s trumpet produces music of utter clarity, piercing beauty, and, if the trumpet archon wills it, paralyzing awe. All creatures except archons within 100 feet of the blast must succeed on a DC 26 Fortitude save or be paralyzed for 1d4 rounds. The archon can also command its trumpet to become a +4 greatsword as a free action.
—Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish)
—A trumpet archon’s natural weapons, as well as any weapons it wields, are treated as good-aligned and lawful-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
—Spell Resistance: 39
—30ft Ground movement
—90ft Flight (good)
—+10 Str, +6 Dex, +12 Con, +6 Int, +6 Wis, +6 Cha
—+14 Natural Armor
—Damage Reduction 10/evil

Class Abilities:

Prestige Domain: Access to the Mysticism domain
Divine Health: Immune to all disease magical and otherwise
Divine Reach 2: A hierophant with this ability can use touch spells on targets up to 30 feet away. If the spell requires a melee touch attack, the hierophant must make a ranged touch attack instead. Divine reach can be selected a second time as a special ability, in which case the range increases to 60 feet.
Bonus Metamagic Feat: Quicken Spell
Domain Powers:  
Good: Cast Good spells at +1 Caster Level
Mysticism: Charisma Bonus to saves

Feats:

Extend Spell (1st), 
Persistent Spell (3rd), 
Spell Penetration (6th), 
Greater Spell Penetration (9th),
 (12th), 
Improved Spell Capacity (15th), 
Improved Spell Capacity (18th), 
Improved Spell Capacity (21st)
Quicken Spell (Hierophant Bonus spell)

Skills:


Concentration 43 (25 Ranks, +12 Con, +1 Luck, +1 Competence, +4 Morale)
Diplomacy 41 (24 Ranks, +9 Cha, +2 Synergy, +1 Luck, +1 Competence, +4 Morale)
Handle Animals 38 (15 Ranks, +17 Wisdom, +1 Luck, +1 Competence, +4 Morale)
Heal 27 (4 Ranks, +17 Wis, +1 Luck, +1 Competence, +4 Morale)
Hide 29 (15 Ranks, +8 Dex, +1 Luck, +4 Morale) 
Knowledge (Religion) 35 (24 Ranks, +5 Int, +1 Luck, +1 Competence, +4 Morale)
Listen 40 (17 Ranks +17 Wis +1 Luck, +1 Competence, +4 Morale)
Move Silently 29 (15 Ranks +8 Dex, +1 Luck, +4 Morale)
Perform (wind inst.) 30 (15 Ranks +9 Cha +1 Luck, +1 Competence, +4 Morale)
Sense Motive 44 (21 Ranks +17 Wis, +1 Luck, +1 Competence, +4 Morale)
Spellcraft 35 (24 Ranks +5 Int, +1 Luck, +1 Competence, +4 Morale)
Spot 40 (17 Ranks, +17 Wis, +1 Luck, +1 Competence, +4 Morale)
Use Rope 29 (15 Ranks, +8 Dex, +1 Luck, +1 Competence, +4 Morale)


Spells:
Base DC: 27 Caster Level: 27 Domains: Sun, Good, Mysticism
6/10+1/9+1/9+1/9+1/9+1/7+1/7+1/7+1/7+1/3+1/3+1/3+1

0. Detect Magic, Create Water, Mending, Guidance, Purify Food and Drink, Read Magic
1. Bless, Santuary, Divine Favor, Doom, Command (x2), Eyes of the Avoral (BoED99), Ray of Hope (BoED105), Vision of Heaven (BoED111), +Protection from Evil
2. Calm Emotion, Lesser Restoration (x2), Silence, Augury, Elation (x2) (BoED98), Hold Person, Remove Paralysis, +Spiritual Weapon
3.Daylight, Searing Light, Dispel Magic, Invisibility Purge, Speak with Dead. Remove Disease, Remove Curse, +Magic Circle against Evil
4. Recitation (x2)(DotF), Sending, Greater Magic Weapon, Neutralize Poison, Sword of Conscience (BoED109), Blood of the Martyr (BoED92) +Holy Smite
5. Persistent Divine Favor, Extended Greater Status (BoED100), Flame Strike, Slay Living, Greater Command, Righteous Might, Dispel Evil, Plane Shift, 
6. Heal (x5), Banishment, Greater Dispel Magic, +Heroes Feast
7. Righteous Wrath of the Faithful (DotF), Holy Word, Repulsion, Destruction, Righteous Smite (BoE106)(x3),
8. Persistent Freedom of Movement, Persistent Divine Power, Discern Location, Antimagic Field, Fire Storm, Spread Contentment (BoED107),
9. Persistent Righteous Might, Miracle, Extended Holy Aura, Mass Heal, True Resurrection, Gate,
10. Persistent Quickshift (BoED104), Quickened Heal (x2), +Extended Greater Aspect of Deity
11. Persistent Shield of the Archons (BoED107), Quickened Righteous Smite (x2), 
12. Quickened Firestorm, Persistent Greater Spell Immunity, 

Possessions:

137,500 +5 Book of Strength
110,000 +4 Book of Dexterity
110,000 +4 Book of Constitution
110,000 +4 Book of Intelligence
137,500 +5 Book of Wisdom
110,000 +4 Book of Charisma

36,000 Gauntlets of Dexterity (+6 Enhancement to Dex)

55,500 Belt of Health (+6 Enhancement Bonus to Constitution, Monk’s Belt)

1,497,700 Circlet of Epic Wisdom, Charisma and Disguise:  (+6 Enhancement Bonus to Charisma, Disguise Self at will)

162,500 Cloak (+5 Deflection, +5 Resistance bonus to Saves, and +5 Natural Armor)

332,000 Amulet: As Bracers of Armor +1 of Heavy Fortification and Soul Fire (BoED), Greater Acid and Cold Resistance)

203,000 Adamantine Holy, Screaming, Shocking, Frost, Flaming, Corrosive Great Sword +1 of Wounding (1d6 Fire, Acid, Cold, Sonic, and Electrical damage, +2d6 Holy Damage, +1 Con Damage)

0 Trumpet: This six foot long silvery trumpet allows the use of the Trumpet ability of the Trumpet Archon, but in someone else’s hands it is a useless lump of metal. As a free action a trumpet archon can change it into a +4 Great Sword.

180,000 Glasses of True Sight: These normal looking glasses let any who wear them see the world as it truly is. (Continuous effect: Psionic True sight)

120,000 Boots of Haste: Continuous Haste
30,000 Figure of Perfection: This 2inch tall figure appears as a more perfect version of the owner granting greater competence in most endeavors: +1 Competence Bonus to attack rolls, skills, saves and ability checks

260,000 Shirt: (Continuous effect: Greater Heroism) +4 Morale Bonus to Hit, Skills, and saves, Immune to Fear, + 13 HP

135,000 Vest of Greater Magic: (+3 Caster Levels)

64,000 Bracers of Armor +8

240,000 Ring of Fire Immunity
240,000 Ring of Sonic Immunity
20,000 Luckstone 
2,000 Handy Haversack

7,300 unspent.

Spell cast Daily : Greater Magic Weapon on Great sword, Persistent Divine Power, Persistent Divine Favor, Persistent Freedom of Movement, Persistent Quickshift, Persistent Spell Immunity (Unholy Word, Word of Chaos, …), Persistent Shield of the Archons.

Not all the spells are chosen.


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## TheOneAboveAll (Nov 4, 2004)

That is very impressive.  Very nice.


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## TheOneAboveAll (Nov 4, 2004)

Wrahn,

Do you have AIM?

If so my id is meesophat.


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## Kangaxx (Nov 4, 2004)

Originally I skipped over Akumunga's description, but curiosity got the better of me after reading the discussion of the nightmare ability.  After looking at the sword, I'm baffled.  First of all, in Arion's hands it is a +11 weapon, which has a base price of 2,420,000, nearly double the price listed.  The fact that it's worse for anyone else isn't a restriction.  If anything, it's an advantage.  

Secondly, the nightmare ability is ridiculous.  The DC should be 30, not 42.  (10 + level 10 spell + 10 cha mod) The sword's ability is less restricted than the spell, not more, since it removes the 10 minute casting time and requirement that the target be sleeping.  Finally, the duration seems to be permanent rather than instantaneous.  So an arcane caster hit by it could never prepare spells again.  *Ever.*  That makes me weep, and I'm not even the dm.  And I won't even go into figuring the price of a 10th level spell usable at will.  I hate to be bringing up rules problems at this late date, especially after Isida's warning, but this one made my brain hurt.

On completely unrelated note; Perivas, what does Caira's ring of sequestering do?  I always thought that spell was pretty useless.


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## Wrahn (Nov 4, 2004)

Kelleris-

In deference to Isida's request, my only reponse in reference to Rahveon's saves and the relative "cheese" of the Holy Liberator is Nuh uh!

Not sleeping is another protection from the nightmare spell.  Rahveon, as already stated, was not sleeping during that time period, he would not have been effected.

What do you think would have happened?  I am not trying to ruin a good story, I just don't think Rahveon would be effected overly much by that particular ability.  As written it is a stalemate between the two, with Arion actually having the upper hand in the story.  (Tricking Rahveon into a dangerous situation and escaping)


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Nov 4, 2004)

perivas, SR 70 is rather silly.  I'd rather you dial it back some.  That's more than some demi gods have.

Kelleris, I didn't have time to nit-pick everyone's individual items, but I do start to cry when I see that weapon.  The enhancement bonus is nutty in your hands and the poison DC is crazy.  All those slight modifications keep adding up to one absolute monster of a weapon...  However, if we name this beast an artifact, as was suggested earlier, we can make this work.  You better be slaying some gods with that crazy thing!  

Clerical character will still be able to get their spells, as you will be drawing on some of the might left from the Endless Falls.  Some minor gods that opposed the big players died along with your world, so there is some free divine power swirling around there.  Don't worry, you'll be ok for your spells.  And that could explain the reason a celestial might be in the party, if one of their gods was killed.


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## Kelleris (Nov 4, 2004)

*sigh*

I'm amazed that +40 or better saves don't make the headlines, but given Wrahn's absolutely stunning rebuttal, I guess I'll just content myself with actually having roll saving throws.

The save DC for the _nightmare_ spell has a +2 bonus figured from the basis of the psionatrices (sp?), and a +10 from the spell itself, a bonus granted when you have a piece of the target in your possession (hence the blood adhering to the blade bit).  It should have a high save DC because the effect is relatively minor - they have to fail about half their saves or I'm really just wasting my time.  It's not an instant death effect - if you don't have a fair chance of blowing it, hoping for a 3 is utterly pointless.  Arcane casters are harder hit, but they have very good Will saves.  Aside from that, when the party fighter has to roll all of a -4 to save against this effect, I overwhelmingly fail to see the problem.  If everyone's going to squeeze as much cheese out of this as possible (and I've already resigned myself to the ubiquitous heavy fortification armors), I could plop an extra 10 points on that and it still wouldn't be broken.

The sword's base enhancement is what's listed there - +5 wounding vicious.  The remaining enhancements have nothing whatever to do with the cost of the weapon.  They all stem from the Item Familiar feat.  If they were part of the weapon proper, it would probably be more like a 10-20% additional charge for the effect.

Also, the nightmare ability is a) not really at will, b) restricted to sleeping targets, and c) not really ignoring the casting time.  If it was really at will, it would take effect more than once a night (and I probably ought to increase it to 1 save per hour of sleep anyway).  It's obviously limited to sleep, because it says so.  And intelligent items can generally activate their own effects, which makes particular sense in this case; Akumunaga can just do the 10-minute casting(s) while I'm sleeping, or walking, or [whatever].


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## Wrahn (Nov 4, 2004)

Sorry, EN World has been flaky.

OneAboveAll-
I don't have Aim here at work.  If you want to send me an Email it is Wrahnn(at)yahoo(dot)com.


I should note that anyone who is immune to criticals is immune to the Devastating Critical, I should also note that anyone who is immune to Mind Effecting Abilities, is likewise immune to _Nightmare_.

Effect over time abilities like that are obnoxious only when applied to recurring characters (such as the PCs and Major NPCs).  In a stardard fight it will make little difference and PCs will be able to deal with the effect, either by shielding themselves or hunting down and removing the source.  I would hesitate to use the effect on a major NPC, because that is a good excuse to get yourself dead.


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## Kelleris (Nov 4, 2004)

Right...  Anyway, I'm going to rework it so that it's more of a short-term recurring threat than a mere annoyance that lasts for an indefinite period of time.  If I'm going to be ticking people off, I might as well get something out of it.

Hmm...  Some kind of time limit on how long the blood lasts, and boost the number saves per night to 1/hour, probably.  Max of 8d10 points of damage/day (highly unlikely, though), and something like 3 days plus some small number based on damage dealt or HD of the target or something.


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## Wrahn (Nov 4, 2004)

perivas-

If you are looking for a high number, yet still reasonable for your Spell Resistence, I would look around 44.  This is 50% chance that a dedicated caster of our level with Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration will get through.  Even that may be high, but it is more reasonable.

The Cosmic Descryer can be found here.  It is an epic prestige class.

Oh, and Archons are Celestials, but don't always serve dieties, they server their own hierachy like devils server their own.  Not that they can't serve dieties, just that they don't have to.


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## Ferrix (Nov 4, 2004)

It'd probably be the same for saves if we're mentioning the spell resistance.  You figure a caster at this level has generally at best a +20-+22 to their save DC's.  Now make that a 10th level spell.  That's a DC 40-42.  If you can pass that on all your saves without rolling a 1, something's a little fishy.

But cheese is cheese as I was thinking earlier, we've all got a little bit.

Also note, that the heavy fortification ability does not make someone immune to critical hits or sneak attacks, it just negates their direct (multiplication of damage and bonus damage dice) effects 100% of the time.  Other effects like stunning attacks, or the bursting quality of a bursting weapon still go off if a critical hit is rolled.  I know this has been discussed a couple of times on the WotC boards, and I find this the more appealing argument.  Thus Sigrun, The Architect who has a mithril shirt of heavy fortification is still susceptible to devastating critical, overwhelming critical, etc.


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## Ferrix (Nov 5, 2004)

Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> You better be slaying some gods with that crazy thing!




Slay! Slay! Slay!

note: three hours naps are the bomb


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## perivas (Nov 5, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> If you are looking for a high number, yet still reasonable for your Spell Resistence, I would look around 44.  This is 50% chance that a dedicated caster of our level with Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration will get through.  Even that may be high, but it is more reasonable.




I don't believe that 44 is enough.  It seems actually quite arbitrary.  A dedicated caster at our level is more akin to a Wizard 5/Red Wizard 20/Archmage 5 with Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration and possibly, Epic Spell Penetration and a +5 level spellcaster level item which would put his check to overcome SR at about 1d20+54 to 56.  That's why I started with a 70...which requires a roll 16 or 14.  But, I can dial it down, if Isida thinks that it would keep her from crying.

Having looked thoroughly at building a powerful epic-level caster, I find that it is much easier to overcome SR...for which one has the benefit of levels...than overcoming one's saving throw bonuses.  DC's for spells are very difficult to increase and even the most powerful builds only gets it to 44 to 46 plus the spell level, which is about 10 short of the ability to overcome SR.  Given this and looking at people's saving throws, an SR around 50 to 60 is not unreasonable.  Please let me know what you think Isida.

P.S., it is certainly true that some demigods do not have SR's of 70 or so, the preconstructed beings are not usually as min-maxed as PC's tend to be.


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## Kangaxx (Nov 5, 2004)

Kelleris, if the nightmare ability only works on people that are sleeping, than my only qualm about it is the permanent duration, which you already said you'll change.  But in the item description it implies to me that the effect happens whenever you hit something.  Giving everyone you ever fight with heinous nightmares for life seems excessive.  

The item familiar feat only lets you add special abilities, not enhancement bonus.  I'd imagine it does that specifically to prevent what you did with it.  Once again, the description wasn't clear, and I had no idea those abilities were supposed to come from the feat.  

Looking over the character sheets, it seems like there's plenty of items running around where I can't tell what they do, or what slot they're supposed to take up.  If I don't know what it does or how it works, I think there's a reasonable chance Isida doesn't, which is obviously unacceptable.  I think any item not straight out of a book should have some explanation attached, seperate from flavor text which can muddle the mechanics.  

And I agree that 2 levels of Holy Liberator is kinda cheesy, but it's strictly by the book, so if it's ok with Isida, it's ok with me.  The most disturbing thing I've noticed is Ferrix's psychic surgery (sp?) schism, but that's also by the book.  And, as Ferrix said, we've all got some cheese.  <shuts up and gets off soapbox>


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## Wrahn (Nov 5, 2004)

While I understand your argument Ferrix:



			
				3.5 SRD said:
			
		

> Fortification: This suit of armor or shield produces a magical force that protects vital areas of the wearer more effectively. When a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on the wearer, there is a chance that the critical hit or sneak attack is negated and damage is instead rolled normally.




They don't say that the damage is negated they say the attack is.  Thus it would be my interpretation that Heavy Fortification does infact make you immune to all of those things, because the attack was negated.


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## Wrahn (Nov 5, 2004)

perivas said:
			
		

> I don't believe that 44 is enough.  It seems actually quite arbitrary.  A dedicated caster at our level is more akin to a Wizard 5/Red Wizard 20/Archmage 5 with Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration and possibly, Epic Spell Penetration and a +5 level spellcaster level item which would put his check to overcome SR at about 1d20+54 to 56.  That's why I started with a 70...which requires a roll 16 or 14.  But, I can dial it down, if Isida thinks that it would keep her from crying.
> 
> Having looked thoroughly at building a powerful epic-level caster, I find that it is much easier to overcome SR...for which one has the benefit of levels...than overcoming one's saving throw bonuses.  DC's for spells are very difficult to increase and even the most powerful builds only gets it to 44 to 46 plus the spell level, which is about 10 short of the ability to overcome SR.  Given this and looking at people's saving throws, an SR around 50 to 60 is not unreasonable.  Please let me know what you think Isida.
> 
> P.S., it is certainly true that some demigods do not have SR's of 70 or so, the preconstructed beings are not usually as min-maxed as PC's tend to be.




What you have described is a spell penetration build and is frankly a weak character because they concentrate on an area that is completly unneccessary.  A quick gander at the ole ELH would tell you that the target DC for Spell Resistence is 42.  Being able to punch through 66 SR is pretty irrelevant.


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## Ferrix (Nov 5, 2004)

I'd probably stop SR at 50 (that'd mean an average, not your twinked out red wizard/archmage, caster/manifester level of 30 with an average modification up to an effective level of 38 for overcoming SR would require a roll of 12 or higher to overcome an SR of 50).  That would seem reasonable.

About the item familiar, it provides only special abilities of a +1 value.  It never states that you can save them up to choose a single higher valued power.


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## perivas (Nov 5, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> What you have described is a spell penetration build and is frankly a weak character because they concentrate on an area that is completly unneccessary.  A quick gander at the ole ELH would tell you that the target DC for Spell Resistence is 42.  Being able to punch through 66 SR is pretty irrelevant.




Au contraire, my friend!  This Wizard/Red Wizard/Archmage build happens to pretty much maximize both SR penetration and DC for spells cast, which makes him an extremely useful and powerful build for a direct effect caster.  You'll need both when you intend to be a caster which forces your opponent to make saves.

But, I digress, Caira is updated to reflect an SR of 51 now...and I changed Loudbark to become a Champion of Gwyharwyf.


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## Zack2216 (Nov 5, 2004)

Getaway's save is will negates.


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## Ferrix (Nov 5, 2004)

19 pages, no in character thread... heheh long OOC thread...

must... finish... fluffy stuff


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Nov 5, 2004)

Ic thread is up!  http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1839111#post1839111


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## TheOneAboveAll (Nov 5, 2004)

Name:Solarion Scion of the Phoenix "Dread of the unholy"
Race: Trumpet Archon (Outsider, Lawful, Good)
Class: ECL 8/Outsider 12/Cleric 6/Hierophant 3/Contemplative 1
Alignment: Lawful Good
Height:6' 4"
Weight:275
Eyes: the color of the perfect sunrise
Hair: none
Complexion: Golden hued and perfect.  Has a tattoo of the phoenix ascendant on his right arm[moving tattoo from BoEM 3]
Tattoo of a sunrise on the base of his skull and one of a phoenix imposed over a sun placed over his heart.

Strength 34 (+12) (13, +10 Race, +5 Inherent, +6 Enhancement)
Dexterity 26 (+8) (10, +6 Race, +4 Inherent, +6 Enhancement)
Constitution 34 (+12) (12, +12 Race, +4 Inherent, +6 Enhancement)
Intelligence 20 (+5) (10, +6 Race, +4 Inherent)
Wisdom 44 (+17) (16, +6 Race, +5 Level, +5 Inherent, +12 Enhancement)
Charisma 28 (+9) (12, +6 Race, +4 Inherent, +6 Enhancement)

Hit Points: 540 (8d8 + 12d8+7d8+1d6+2d8+360)

AC 68 (10, +8 Armor, +19 Natural, +5 Deflection, +17 Wisdom, +8 Dexterity, +1 Unamed)

Attack: 51/51/46/41/36 (20 BAB, +12 Strength, +5 Weapon, +5 Epic, +1 Competence, +4 Morale, +1 Haste, +3 Luck)

Damage: 1d6 Fire + 1d6 Cold + 1d6 Acid + 1d6 Sonic + 1d6 Electrical + 2d6 + 26 (+18 Strength + 3 Luck + 5 Enhancement) +1 Con damage +2d6 versus Evil

Saves:

Fort +49 (16 Base +12 Con, +5 Resistance, +9 Cha, +1 Epic, +1 Luck, +1 Competence, +4 Morale)
Reflex +40 (10 Base, +8 Dex, +5 Resistance, +9 Cha, +1 Epic, +1 Luck, +1 Competence, +4 Morale, +1 Haste)
Will +54 (16 Base, +17 Wis, +5 Resistance, +9 Cha, +1 Epic, +1 Luck, +1 Competence, +4 Morale)


Racial Abilities

—Darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision.
—Aura of Menace (Su): A righteous aura surrounds archons that fight or get angry. Any hostile creature within a 20-foot radius of an archon must succeed on a Will save DC 28. Those who fail take a –2 penalty on attacks, AC, and saves for 24 hours or until they successfully hit the archon that generated the aura. A creature that has resisted or broken the effect cannot be affected again by the same archon’s aura for 24 hours.
—Immunity to electricity and petrification.
— +4 racial bonus on saves against poison.
—Magic Circle against Evil (Su): A magic circle against evil effect always surrounds an archon (caster level 22).
—Teleport (Su): Archons can use greater teleport at will, as the spell (caster level 14th), except that the creature can transport only itself and up to 50 pounds of objects.
—Tongues (Su): All archons can speak with any creature that has a language, as though using a tongues spell (caster level 14th). This ability is always active.
—Spell-Like Abilities: At will—detect evil, continual flame, message. Caster level 12th.
—Trumpet (Su): An archon’s trumpet produces music of utter clarity, piercing beauty, and, if the trumpet archon wills it, paralyzing awe. All creatures except archons within 100 feet of the blast must succeed on a DC 26 Fortitude save or be paralyzed for 1d4 rounds. The archon can also command its trumpet to become a +4 greatsword as a free action.
—Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish)
—A trumpet archon’s natural weapons, as well as any weapons it wields, are treated as good-aligned and lawful-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
—Spell Resistance: 39
—30ft Ground movement
—90ft Flight (good)
—+10 Str, +6 Dex, +12 Con, +6 Int, +6 Wis, +6 Cha
—+14 Natural Armor
—Damage Reduction 10/evil

Class Abilities:

Prestige Domain: Access to the Mysticism domain
Divine Health: Immune to all disease magical and otherwise
Divine Reach 2: A hierophant with this ability can use touch spells on targets up to 30 feet away. If the spell requires a melee touch attack, the hierophant must make a ranged touch attack instead. Divine reach can be selected a second time as a special ability, in which case the range increases to 60 feet.
Bonus Metamagic Feat: Quicken Spell
Domain Powers:
Good: Cast Good spells at +1 Caster Level
Mysticism: Charisma Bonus to saves

Feats:

Extend Spell (1st),
Persistent Spell (3rd),
Spell Penetration (6th),
Greater Spell Penetration (9th),
Purify spell BoED(12th),
Improved Spell Capacity (15th),
Improved Spell Capacity (18th),
Improved Spell Capacity (21st)
Quicken Spell (Hierophant Bonus spell)

Skills:


Concentration 43 (25 Ranks, +12 Con, +1 Luck, +1 Competence, +4 Morale)
Diplomacy 41 (24 Ranks, +9 Cha, +2 Synergy, +1 Luck, +1 Competence, +4 Morale)
Handle Animals 38 (15 Ranks, +17 Wisdom, +1 Luck, +1 Competence, +4 Morale)
Heal 27 (4 Ranks, +17 Wis, +1 Luck, +1 Competence, +4 Morale)
Hide 29 (15 Ranks, +8 Dex, +1 Luck, +4 Morale)
Knowledge (Religion) 35 (24 Ranks, +5 Int, +1 Luck, +1 Competence, +4 Morale)
Listen 40 (17 Ranks +17 Wis +1 Luck, +1 Competence, +4 Morale)
Move Silently 29 (15 Ranks +8 Dex, +1 Luck, +4 Morale)
Perform (wind inst.) 30 (15 Ranks +9 Cha +1 Luck, +1 Competence, +4 Morale)
Sense Motive 44 (21 Ranks +17 Wis, +1 Luck, +1 Competence, +4 Morale)
Spellcraft 35 (24 Ranks +5 Int, +1 Luck, +1 Competence, +4 Morale)
Spot 40 (17 Ranks, +17 Wis, +1 Luck, +1 Competence, +4 Morale)
Use Rope 29 (15 Ranks, +8 Dex, +1 Luck, +1 Competence, +4 Morale)


Spells:
Base DC: 27 Caster Level: 27 Domains: Sun, Good, Mysticism
6/10+1/9+1/9+1/9+1/9+1/7+1/7+1/7+1/7+1/3+1/3+1/3+1

0. Detect Magic, Create Water, Mending, Guidance, Purify Food and Drink, Read Magic
1. Bless, Santuary, Divine Favor, Doom, Command (x2), Eyes of the Avoral (BoED99), Ray of Hope (BoED105), Vision of Heaven (BoED111), +Protection from Evil

2. Calm Emotion, Lesser Restoration (x2), Silence, Augury, Elation (x2) (BoED98), Hold Person, Remove Paralysis, +Spiritual Weapon

3.Daylight, Searing Light, Dispel Magic, Invisibility Purge, Speak with Dead. Remove Disease, Remove Curse, +Magic Circle against Evil

4. Recitation (x2)(DotF), Sending, Greater Magic Weapon, Neutralize Poison, Sword of Conscience (BoED109), Blood of the Martyr (BoED92) +Holy Smite

5. Persistent Divine Favor, Extended Greater Status (BoED100), Flame Strike, Slay Living, Greater Command, Righteous Might, Dispel Evil, Plane Shift,

6. Heal (x5), Banishment, Greater Dispel Magic, +Heroes Feast

7. Righteous Wrath of the Faithful (DotF), Holy Word, Repulsion, Destruction, Righteous Smite (BoE106)(x3),

8. Persistent Freedom of Movement, Persistent Divine Power, Discern Location, Antimagic Field, Fire Storm, Spread Contentment (BoED107),

9. Persistent Righteous Might, Miracle, Extended Holy Aura, Mass Heal, True Resurrection, Gate,

10. Persistent Quickshift (BoED104), Quickened Heal (x2), +Extended Greater Aspect of Deity

11. Persistent Shield of the Archons (BoED107), Quickened Righteous Smite (x2),

12. Quickened Firestorm, Persistent Greater Spell Immunity,

Possessions:

137,500 +5 Book of Strength
110,000 +4 Book of Dexterity
110,000 +4 Book of Constitution
110,000 +4 Book of Intelligence
137,500 +5 Book of Wisdom
110,000 +4 Book of Charisma

36,000 Gauntlets of Dexterity (+6 Enhancement to Dex)

55,500 Belt of Health (+6 Enhancement Bonus to Constitution, Monk’s Belt)

1,497,700 Circlet of Epic Wisdom, Charisma and Disguise: (+6 Enhancement Bonus to Charisma, Disguise Self at will)

162,500 Cloak (+5 Deflection, +5 Resistance bonus to Saves, and +5 Natural Armor)

332,000 Amulet: As Bracers of Armor +1 of Heavy Fortification and Soul Fire (BoED), Greater Acid and Cold Resistance)

203,000 Adamantine Holy, Screaming, Shocking, Frost, Flaming, Corrosive Great Sword +1 of Wounding (1d6 Fire, Acid, Cold, Sonic, and Electrical damage, +2d6 Holy Damage, +1 Con Damage)

0 Trumpet: This six foot long silvery trumpet allows the use of the Trumpet ability of the Trumpet Archon, but in someone else’s hands it is a useless lump of metal. As a free action a trumpet archon can change it into a +4 Great Sword.

180,000 Glasses of True Sight: These normal looking glasses let any who wear them see the world as it truly is. (Continuous effect: Psionic True sight)

120,000 Boots of Haste: Continuous Haste
30,000 Figure of Perfection: This 2inch tall figure appears as a more perfect version of the owner granting greater competence in most endeavors: +1 Competence Bonus to attack rolls, skills, saves and ability checks

260,000 Shirt: (Continuous effect: Greater Heroism) +4 Morale Bonus to Hit, Skills, and saves, Immune to Fear, + 13 HP

135,000 Vest of Greater Magic: (+3 Caster Levels)

64,000 Bracers of Armor +8

240,000 Ring of Fire Immunity
240,000 Ring of Sonic Immunity
20,000 Luckstone
2,000 Handy Haversack

7,300 unspent.

Spell cast Daily : Greater Magic Weapon on Great sword, Persistent Divine Power, Persistent Divine Favor, Persistent Freedom of Movement, Persistent Quickshift, Persistent Spell Immunity (Unholy Word, Word of Chaos, …), Persistent Shield of the Archons.

Not all the spells are chosen.


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## TheOneAboveAll (Nov 5, 2004)

Wrahn once again thanks alot.

Does anyone have a problem with a persistant purified end to strife spell?


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Nov 5, 2004)

TheOneAboveAll said:
			
		

> Wrahn once again thanks alot.
> 
> Does anyone have a problem with a persistant purified end to strife spell?



  I'm not quite sure where you'd find someone to cast it, but anyway, yes I have a problem with it.  With the wide range of alignment we have (including a NE god-hating archmage, and a currently CG ex-assassin), that would be a Very, Very, Bad Idea.  Invoking DM Veto power on this one.


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## TheOneAboveAll (Nov 5, 2004)

Wrahn I was wondering which is a better item to have?  Boots of haste or a bow of solars?  It was one of the items I was going to choose, unless I am better off without it.


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Nov 5, 2004)

Depends, do you want to attack more times in a round (_boots of haste_) or have every arrow you fire be a _greater slaying arrow_ of whatever it hits (_bow of the solars_)?


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## TheOneAboveAll (Nov 5, 2004)

As far as casting goes I would be able to do it myself.  Guess that is why I asked first.  Wanted to be sure it was appropiate.

So the spell is completely off limits?  Even if cast normally?


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Nov 5, 2004)

End to Strife is a 9th level spell.  Persistant is +6 levels.  Purified is +1 levels.  You don't have 16th level spell slots.  

You can cast it normally, just note that you will probably have an 80ft. radius area that even some in your party won't enter.


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## TheOneAboveAll (Nov 5, 2004)

Sorry, I miscalculated.  I am horrible with numbers.  

I was kind of thinking of a character that could rain holy death from afar, hence the bow of solars.  If I was able to do that it might not matter how many times a round I can attack, especially with my companions.

It will be interesting when I meet the god hater though.

Haste is third level, correct?


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## Wrahn (Nov 5, 2004)

Okay, I have detected a problem.

Since we weren't using Forgotten Realm Books, I had assumed that we were using the Tome and Blood version of persistent.  (the +4 level one.)  Ouch.


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## Wrahn (Nov 5, 2004)

Haste is an arcane spell, divine casters only have access to it through domains.  Certainly your choice, you do not need the boots of Haste.

Isida we are using the new Persistent spell from the Races of Faerun (or wherever, I was only told of it's existence in one of the new FR books in 3.5)

It will hurt Solarion, but I think he should survive with out too much pain.


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## TheOneAboveAll (Nov 5, 2004)

Unless the bow is not useful, I think I may go with it.  So with persistant I was not as far off as I thought.


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## Ferrix (Nov 5, 2004)

Wrahn, I made a slight link between my character and yours in my history.  Check out my cloak, Liber Corpus.  It mentions the brief interaction which occurred at the Bastion of Hope.


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## Rikandur Azebol (Nov 5, 2004)

*Most Honored.*



			
				Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> Also, remember to list the source of anything that's not from the core books.
> 
> Rikandur - Welcome!  I'll take the time to look over your character later, but tell me, what is a Maug and where is it from?  And how did it become a construct, and which rules did you use for it?




*Bows*

Maugs are mercenary multidimensional constructs, orginating from the plane of Acheron. Book "Fiend Folio" page 121.

Character Rules: 
LA +3, ECL +5, Type: Construct (Extraplanar).
Str+10, Dex+4, Int+2, Cha+2.
2 Construct HD, saves +0. BAB +1.

Racial features: Construct Traits, Pulverize, Grafts, Rapid Repair, OC 14+ character level, Favored class: Fighter.

Feats I used were from "Player Handbook", "Savage Species" (Mighty Leaping), "Epic Level Handbook", "Book of Exalted Deeds" (Nymph's Kiss displacing Two Weapon Fighting), "Complete Warrior" (Improved Toughness and Elusive Target). Feats are listed in order of acquiring them, hope they are correctly listed. I will fix obvious errors right away.


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## Wrahn (Nov 5, 2004)

Rikandur Azebol said:
			
		

> *Bows*
> 
> Maugs are mercenary multidimensional constructs, orginating from the plane of Acheron. Book "Fiend Folio" page 121.
> 
> ...




I am afraid that Isida doesn't own the Complete Warrior so Improved toughness and elusive target is out.


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Nov 5, 2004)

I may not be using the FR books for this game, but this doesn't mean that I'm not using the most current version of various feats.


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## Rikandur Azebol (Nov 5, 2004)

*Improved Toughness.*



			
				Wrahn said:
			
		

> I am afraid that Isida doesn't own the Complete Warrior so Improved toughness and elusive target is out.




Hello. Never, ever lose hope. 

I could fix it easily. Like Kelleris with his proposals of feats :

*Improved Toughness* [General, Fighter Bonus]

Requiments: base Fortitude save +2.

Benefits: With this feat You gain bonus HP equal to Your HD. And every level after You continue to gain 1 HP extra. But these bonus HP will never exceed Your HD, so if You lose levels You will also lose extra HP per lost level. 

In short: It's equivalent of Con 12 for my Construct ... or growth of Con by 2 points, for HP determining purpouses only, for all others.

*Elusive Target* [Tactical]

Requiments: BAB +6, Dodge, Mobility.

You can make Three tactical actions with this feat:

_Negate Power Attack_-Designate enemy using Power Attack for Your Dodge feat. You negate his/her/it's damage bonus from Power Attack feat. But penatly to attack roll stays.

_Diverting Defence_-When You are flanked in close combat, first attack from enemy that You designate for Your Dodge feat misses You automatically and may hit one of his allies. In misplaced attack make attack roll normally, attacked ally is considered flat-footed for this attack.

_Cause Overreach_-To use this maneuveur You must provoke attack of opportunity from a foe by moving out of his/hers/it's threat range. If attack of oportunity misses You, You can make free trip attack against this foe and he cannot make trip attempt against You if You fail.

Well, hope it would help ...   If not I think that My Maug will need more reworking.


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Nov 5, 2004)

Improved Toughness, yes, Elusive Target, no.


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## Wrahn (Nov 5, 2004)

Isida,

Could I get your opinion on something:

The Epic FAQ found on WotC site says, among other things, that a bonus feat taken from a non-epic source (such as taking 20 levels of wizard and the 21st as a fighter, fighter class is first level so isn't epic, even though the character is) must be taken as a standard (non-epic) feat.

The SRD seems to directly contradict this:



			
				3.5 SRD in the Gaining a Second Class section said:
			
		

> Whenever an epic character is allowed to pick up a feat as part of character level advancement, he or she can choose either a nonepic feat or an epic feat.




To further muddy the waters, the Epic FAQ is for 3.0 and the SRD is 3.5.  It could be as simple as a rules change.

Could you make some determination on this


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## Rikandur Azebol (Nov 5, 2004)

*Then ... let's change this.*



			
				Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> Improved Toughness, yes, Elusive Target, no.




As *You* command, DM. 

Then I will displace unallowed feat with, chmm ... Large and in Charge from "Sword and Fist". If DM approves.


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Nov 5, 2004)

Gaining feats in the normal course of character advancement, in epic levels, means one can take an epic feat.

Large and in Charge - is good.


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## Wrahn (Nov 5, 2004)

OneAboveAll-

I took the liberty of modifying your spell list, you lose the Persistent Greater Spell Immunity and Persistent Shield of the Archons, I made shield of the archons quickened and listed the open slots you now have.  The + infront of the spell name or open slot denotes domain spells.

Base DC: 27 Caster Level: 27 Domains: Sun, Good, Mysticism
6/10+1/9+1/9+1/9+1/9+1/7+1/7+1/7+1/7+1/3+1/3+1/3+1

0. Detect Magic, Create Water, Mending, Guidance, Purify Food and Drink, Read Magic
1. Bless, Santuary, Divine Favor, Doom, Command (x2), Eyes of the Avoral (BoED99), Ray of Hope (BoED105), Vision of Heaven (BoED111), Open, +Protection from Evil

2. Calm Emotion, Lesser Restoration (x2), Silence, Augury, Elation (x2) (BoED98), Hold Person, Remove Paralysis, +Spiritual Weapon

3.Daylight, Searing Light, Dispel Magic, Invisibility Purge, Speak with Dead. Remove Disease, Remove Curse, Open, Open, +Magic Circle against Evil

4. Recitation (x2)(DotF), Sending, Greater Magic Weapon, Neutralize Poison, Sword of Conscience (BoED109), Blood of the Martyr (BoED92), Open, Open +Holy Smite

5. Extended Greater Status (BoED100), Flame Strike, Slay Living, Greater Command, Righteous Might, Dispel Evil, Plane Shift, Open, Open, +Open

6. Heal (x5), Banishment, Greater Dispel Magic, +Heroes Feast

7. Persistent Divine Favor, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful (DotF), Holy Word, Repulsion, Destruction, Righteous Smite (BoE106)(x2), +Open

8. Discern Location, Antimagic Field, Fire Storm, Spread Contentment (BoED107),Open, Open, Open, +Open

9. Miracle, Extended Holy Aura, Mass Heal, True Resurrection, Gate, Open, Open, +Open

10. Persistent Freedom of Movement, Persistent Divine Power, Quickened Heal, +Extended Greater Aspect of Deity

11. Quickened Shield of the Archons (BoED107), Quickened Righteous Smite, Persistent Righteous Might, +Open

12. Quickened Firestorm, Persistent Quickshift (BoED), Open, +Open

Oh and the purified end of strife is a very powerful combination.  Just watch out for our non-good members.


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## Kangaxx (Nov 5, 2004)

Hmm... I'm not used to rolling my own skill checks.  I guess I'll assume Pilmer was uncharacteristically standing in the open rather than going back and rolling a hide check now.  Should we link to the results of our rolls?  Are we going to be making our own rolls in combat too?   It seems like that could cause a lot of slowdown with saves and such.  

Kelleris, for future reference the necklace came from an unknown priest, not Azazel.  Unknown to Pilmer at least.  With that much bardic lore, you might know who it was.


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## Kelleris (Nov 5, 2004)

Doi!  See, this is the problem with a 34 Int...    

Sorry about the "out in the open" part.  Actually, what I intended to put was some kind of notation to the effect that Arion is effectively assuming Pilmer is there.  He tends to make brilliant inductions from the situations he finds himself in, and then assume that those leaps of logic are actually the case.  It's a side effect of having an Int score almost 5 times that of your Wisdom.

Basically, Arion's making a mental inventory of the people he sees, indexing their abilities (most of which he would presumably know), and coming up with a list of people he expects to see based on shared traits of those present.  I imagine Pilmer would make the short list, and Arion assumes for that reason that he is in fact somewhere around here.  Also, you're likely the only person Arion can think of who would have a shot at finding him lurking around.  As far as Arion's concerned, his intuitions + paranoia = the actual state of affairs.  The only reason he's survived this long is because his intuitions are very, very good.

Also, you haven't spoken out loud yet, so there's no reason you couldn't still be hiding.    

Oh, and if anyone's worried about those Hide checks, they're the result of adding _improvisation_ to already-high bonuses.  I briefly considered buying a +30 item as well, but I'm pretty sure the only purpose that would serve would be to Hide from a fellow party member.

Hmm...  A NE fellow party member...  Maybe that's not such a bad idea after all!    

@ Isida - Does telepathy give a sense of direction?  Akumunaga has telepathy with a 120 foot range, and I might be inclined to comment without revealing myself at some point, if possible.


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## Wrahn (Nov 5, 2004)

Just a couple of things to be aware of:

Blindsight will see you.  Blindsense will pinpoint you (still have the 50% miss chance).  I think you are aware of that.

Hide in plain sight is a supernatural ability that 1) does not work in an antimagic area and 2) True Seeing sees through.


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## Kangaxx (Nov 5, 2004)

Don't worry about it, Pilmer probably would have revealed himself soon anyway.  

Portraying epic character's mental stats is an interesting conundrum.  A genius in real life is a comparative moron next to most of the party members.  So how do you portray someone that much smarter than yourself?  Your idea about incredible leaps of logic sounds good, but it kind of breaks down when you don't have the other person's character sheet to look at.   

I added some mundane items to Pilmer's character sheet, because I simply forgot to do so earlier.  Hopefully that's not a problem.


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## Kelleris (Nov 5, 2004)

I am well aware of how blindsight and -sense work, although I would like to ask Isida if I can take a -20 penalty to hide from blindsense and a -40 to hide from blindsight.  (The "practically impossible" and "really, really practically impossible" penalties, respectively.)

I'm not using Hide in Plain Sight at the moment, since I gather we are in a forest.  It shouldn't be necessary.  Aside from that, I don't think _true seeing_ would work anyway, since it's not actually hiding me: my Hide check is what is actually concealing me, and true seeing does not negate that.  It does pinpoint people protected by magical concealment, but it doesn't negate it.  And since all the "virtual concealment" of Hide in Plain Sight is doing is letting me hide, _true seeing_ doesn't help unless you already know where I am.  Hide in Plain Sight merely extends the range of the Hide skill; it does nothing by itself to help it (no bonuses or anything here).

@ Kangaxx - Yeah, I know.  I'm enjoying my omniscience while it lasts!      Hopefully Isida will be able to help me out with the rest of it; you really need the DM's help to fake being that smart.


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## Wrahn (Nov 5, 2004)

Kelleris said:
			
		

> I am well aware of how blindsight and -sense work, although I would like to ask Isida if I can take a -20 penalty to hide from blindsense and a -40 to hide from blindsight.  (The "practically impossible" and "really, really practically impossible" penalties, respectively.)
> 
> I'm not using Hide in Plain Sight at the moment, since I gather we are in a forest.  It shouldn't be necessary.  Aside from that, I don't think _true seeing_ would work anyway, since it's not actually hiding me: my Hide check is what is actually concealing me, and true seeing does not negate that.  It does pinpoint people protected by magical concealment, but it doesn't negate it.  And since all the "virtual concealment" of Hide in Plain Sight is doing is letting me hide, _true seeing_ doesn't help unless you already know where I am.  Hide in Plain Sight merely extends the range of the Hide skill; it does nothing by itself to help it (no bonuses or anything here).




Common sense tells me that allowing you to hide to Blindsense and Blindsight with scores that high isn't a wise thing.

If hide in plain sight was an extraordinary ability, then you would be correct, but it is supernatural.  Since it is impossible without magical mean to hide while being observered, _True Seeing_ blocks your attempt to hide, in essence you don't even roll.  Likewise it is impossible to hide without concealment of some nature, thus again _True Seeing_ negate Hide in Plain Sight and you, since you can't be hidden, are visible.  

I just wanted to give you a heads up so you could be prepared.


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## Kangaxx (Nov 5, 2004)

SRD said:
			
		

> The subject sees through normal and magical darkness, notices secret doors hidden by magic, sees the exact locations of creatures or objects under blur or displacement effects, sees invisible creatures or objects normally, sees through illusions, and sees the true form of polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things.




Hide in Plain Sight is not darkness, a door, the spell blur, the spell displacement, a provider of invisibility, an illusion, or an altered form.  Thus true seeing does not prevent it from working.


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## Kelleris (Nov 5, 2004)

True seeing doesn't negate whatever it is that Hide in Plain Sight represents, since it isn't actually hiding me.  But it's close enough either way to be Isida's call.

EDIT: And what Kangaxx said...

Why do you think it's a bad idea for me to be able to Hide from blindsight/sense with a massive penalty?  It brings it well within a good spotter's rolls, and it lets my skills stay useful as more and more things have access to these abilities.  Since I can walk on water with a good Balance roll, I don't see that it's terribly unreasonable either.


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## Ferrix (Nov 5, 2004)

I'd probably say no to hiding from blindsense/sight or make it a DC of about 100 for Blindsense and 120 for blindsight, as that seems to match some of the really epic DC's (climbing on a perfectly smooth, flat, overhang or ceiling DC 100).  I don't know what that would exactly translate into a penalty, but I imagine it would be pretty massive.  -60 to -80 at least.


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## Wrahn (Nov 5, 2004)

Kangaxx said:
			
		

> Hide in Plain Sight is not darkness, a door, the spell blur, the spell displacement, a provider of invisibility, an illusion, or an altered form.  Thus true seeing does not prevent it from working.




The list is a set of examples.  That is not the only thing that it does, it shows magically hidden things, like people hiding in plain sight.

Here is the text from the spell:



			
				3.5 SRD said:
			
		

> You confer on the subject the ability to see all things as they actually are. The subject sees through normal and magical darkness, notices secret doors hidden by magic, sees the exact locations of creatures or objects under blur or displacement effects, sees invisible creatures or objects normally, sees through illusions, and sees the true form of polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things. Further, the subject can focus its vision to see into the Ethereal Plane (but not into extradimensional spaces). The range of true seeing conferred is 120 feet.
> 
> True seeing, however, does not penetrate solid objects. It in no way confers X-ray vision or its equivalent. It does not negate concealment, including that caused by fog and the like. True seeing does not help the viewer see through mundane disguises, spot creatures who are simply hiding, or notice secret doors hidden by mundane means. In addition, the spell effects cannot be further enhanced with known magic, so one cannot use true seeing through a crystal ball or in conjunction with clairaudience/clairvoyance.
> 
> Material Component: An ointment for the eyes that costs 250 gp and is made from mushroom powder, saffron, and fat.




Hide in Plain Sight is magical concealment, True Seeing sees through it.


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## Kelleris (Nov 6, 2004)

Right, but the thing is that Hide in Plain Sight isn't concealment.  If you use the ability without rolling a Hide check, you aren't concealed.  If you use the ability and roll a 3, you aren't concealed.  All it does is let you use Hide when you otherwise couldn't, which isn't something that true seeing even looks at.

As far as the Hide check, I would say that, in terms of difficulty, hiding from blind(whatever) is more like balancing on a thread/balancing on water in terms of difficulty.  The 120 DC (balancing on a cloud, walking through a wall of force) would be something liking making a Hide check to evade scrying.

That said, I would prefer a penalty.  With a penalty, I still have to roll once my check gets up that high* (it already can with improvisation), instead of just laughing off a reasonably powerful (if decidedly non-epic) ability.  I picked the -20/-40 because it's a hefty penalty that doesn't cripple me at the same time.  If they have ranks in perception skills, or general bonuses, or roll really high, they can see me.  Otherwise I'll be rolling a negative number half the time.

Also, look at the bonuses for being invisible.  +20 if you're moving, and +40 if you aren't.  Blindsense is analogous to the former (you can kinda make them out, but imperfectly and only by traces), while blindsight is analogous to the latter (they're completely invisible, and they aren't even stirring up any traces).  Reversing the bonuses seems reasonable for flawed pinpointing and perfect pinpointing.

Aside from all that, it's pretty reasonable to pitch the DC somewhere where I can get it, but where it's still a challenge.  I am, after all, the skill guy.  Setting the skill DC for something that I imagine I'll want to do fairly frequently too high (and, remember, blind[whatever] is something we'll run into with fair frequency; every last abomination has it, for instance) would be rather like setting saving throws so high that the party wizard can never cast the fun save (nagates) spells.  Aside from that, it's hardly a broken ability.  Rogues barely have to roll Hide/Move Silently anymore at lower levels (IME); having all those ranks, high ability scores, money, and whatnot contributing to Hide, just so I can tread relative water with lower-level sneaky guys is pretty, well...  non-epic.

*I also think the checks to see through illusions should work this way.  In a perfect world the party rogue shouldn't be immune to the illusions of a 40th-level illusionist.


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## Ferrix (Nov 6, 2004)

Where is improvisation from?
I'd have to say to avoid blindsight/sense, you would have to succeed at both a Hide and Move Silently check with penalties to both.  That's my humble opinion.


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## Kelleris (Nov 6, 2004)

_Improvisation_ is from Song and Silence.  I have waited for years to have a bard of high enough level to take it and with an open slot.  So sad...    

You can find the basics of it at Crystal Keep, page 11, third column.

And yeah, assuming I'm both moving and hiding (likely as not), it would be both that I would have to roll.  I'm just not as worried about Move Silently checks because of _zone of silence_.*

* - For some reason, bard-only spells tend to be remarkably good.  _Improvisation_ + _glibness_ + _zone of silence_ =    And don't even get me started on having _heroism_ at 2nd level...


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## Ferrix (Nov 6, 2004)

I have Song and Silence, just been a while since i cracked it open.

Yeah bards have really good spells, just most players don't end up sticking them out all the way to really high levels.


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## Kelleris (Nov 6, 2004)

Yeah.  Fortunately or unfortunately, though, I have a predilection for the magic-using rogue, and I've generally used the Bard class for that.  They can be pretty powerful if you're careful.  I was a bit squeamish with Arion, though, at least this time around.  I've decided to go against the grain and try being at the low end of party power levels.  Couldn't pass up the chance to take _improvisation_, though.  I will be using it with abandon!


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## Wrahn (Nov 6, 2004)

Okay, how about this, you are hiding in plain sight through an empty room, nothing inside of it other than the think shadow of a thin rope.  Unbeknownst to you, in the middle of the room there is an antimagic area you have stepped into.  Are you visible or not? (ignoring the fact that there is no one but you in the room).

If Hide in Plain Sight is not responsible for hiding you then you aren't.  If it is then you are.  

I say you are and thus True Seeing can see through it.

True Seeing being able to see through it isn't crippling, it is just something you need to be careful of.


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## Kelleris (Nov 6, 2004)

Yes, I am, because I no longer meet the conditions to Hide in that room (well, assuming it's well-lit).  But I haven't lost concealment or invisibility or any of the other things true seeing deals with.  They're different cases entirely - all Hide in Plain Sight does is extend the conditions under which you can hide: you can hide with only a bit in the way of nearby shadows, and you can hide when being observed.  It does nothing at all to actually conceal you.  In fact, Hide in Plain Sight is always "on", whether you are actually hiding or not; it isn't something I specifically elect to use.  Even aside from _that_, it lets you hide even while being observed; it doesn't magically grant you pseudo-concealment.  It represents supernatural skill at hiding, not anything that true seeing counters.


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## Kangaxx (Nov 6, 2004)

This is getting excessive.  You've both made your points, now lay off and wait for Isida to say what's what.  I'm amazed you're still going on like this after being warned that more rules bickering could get people kicked out of the campaign.


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## Wrahn (Nov 6, 2004)

The first line of the description says it all, it shows things how they really are.  How things really are is you standing undisguised in the middle of the room.  Barring magic nothing is hiding you.  Your magical extension of where you can hide is negated by _True Seeing_, because _True Seeing_ sees through magical concealment.

You can not hide without concealment, therefore _True Seeing_ sees through Hide in Plain Sight.

We seem to be going around in a circle in this.  I find it difficult to see your point.  (You can't hide in the middle of an empty room barring magical means, falling under the realm of Magical Concealment, meaning True Seeing sees through it.)

Tell you what, I will post the question in the rules section and see what others have to say.


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## Wrahn (Nov 6, 2004)

Kangaxx said:
			
		

> This is getting excessive.  You've both made your points, now lay off and wait for Isida to say what's what.  I'm amazed you're still going on like this after being warned that more rules bickering could get people kicked out of the campaign.




 Not kicked out of the campaign, disallowing non-standard items, which strangely I am not that big of opponent of.

Not trying to frustrate Isida (ignore us Isida *waves hands, this isn't the thread you are looking for.*) I just honestly don't see the other side of the argument.


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## Kelleris (Nov 6, 2004)

You know, I have _got_ to figure out a way to abuse a +135 Bluff check.*  Any ideas?  A friend suggested that I tell someone they have X class ability, thereby granting them said class ability because they are so fundamentally unable to not believe me.

*50 base + _55 improvisation_ + 30 _glibness_

EDIT:  Link me to the thread you start.  It isn't terribly fair to present a case that you profess not to understand.


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Nov 6, 2004)

Ok, DM's ruling on telepathy, blindsight, blindsense, Hide in Plain Sight, and _true seeing_.  

Telepathy does not give you direction of the "speaker."

You may take a -60 to hide from blindsight, and -80 to hide from blindsense.

Hide in Plain Sight is a borderline case from "simply hiding" to being magically hidden.  I come down on the side of Hide in Plain Sight.  _True seeing_ does not see through it.


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## Kelleris (Nov 6, 2004)

Hrm, a wash between pro and con.  Although I assume you mean -60 blindsense, since it's the weaker ability.  Well, things with those abilities tend to neglect their spotting anyway.

Thanks for the rulings!  Hopefully we can get all this laid down pretty quick.  I'll see if there's anything else I'd like to know, so I can figure out my SOP for most things.   

Well, two things.  First, can I draw a weapon as a free action with a DC 70 slight of hand check?  (That's the DC to steal someone else's weapon as a free action.)

What's the penalty to make a Bluff check "through" Akumunaga's telepathy?  We're pretty closely linked, and they'll be Arion's words in any case.


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Nov 6, 2004)

Free feat with a good skill check?  hmmm.... Peanut gallery, opinions?


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## Kelleris (Nov 6, 2004)

Hum, yeah, that's the thing.  It makes perfect sense, given the DCs, but it *is* a free feat for someone with as high a sleight of hand check as I have.  I doubt it will matter hugely one way or the other, but it's good to know.

Also, I added a question to my earlier post.


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## Rikandur Azebol (Nov 6, 2004)

*Penaut Opinion.*



			
				Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> Free feat with a good skill check?  hmmm.... Peanut gallery, opinions?




That's a problem with Epic High Skills. Theoretically Kelleris could do that without sweat. But let's consider this: With feat, one can do this *ALVAYS* without trouble. Unless they are unable to reach for the weapon.

And if Kelleris roll 1 on the skill check, he will not suceed. Rare occurence, but ach so often during my games. Cannon fodder villanin, and Player fails his Will save and goes to cinders. Or vice versa, main Bad Guy, and when I planned just tease PC's with him ... Wizbang throws a one in million chance Disintegrate. And two third of the Campaign go off wtrough the window.
"Prophet, You said he was invicible ?" "Huh ?!? You said, he _was_ ?"   

Kelleris, if You honestly think that such "feat" is unfair ... then don't abuse it. Draw slower, Akumanga shouldn't complain much about waiting for it's pleasure. 

Of course in the _*DIREST*_ circumastences plea Isida for looking trough fingers on Your abuses of rules.

You know, saving person who Arion loves from Overdeity may be right place to ask for permision. With such skyrocketing Bluff You could try to persuade DM that this particular rabbit, looking in Your way, is DEADLIEST of threats that You ever faced. But ... I will warn You, don't abuse You inhumanly high Skills too often and in selfish way. Elefant man will introduce You to his boot, for example. And Arion will be unable to sit on his ... place where back loose it's noble name, for long time.    

Hah, according to official rules Str 60 allows one to lift up a castle. Or at least wizard's tower. Toppling castle walls with a kick ... is a bread and butter. Even for Tsunami, who is two times weaker ... Can destroy castle preety fast.

My advice ? Don't make things that will repulse others, don't make DM cry. It is that simple.


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## Ferrix (Nov 6, 2004)

*laughs wholeheartedly*


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## Kelleris (Nov 6, 2004)

Heh.  Nah, the Bluff check was just something I was wondering about when Ferrix got me started on how good bard spells are.  It was more of an OOC "out of control epic characters" question, rather than something I was actually asking Isida.  I mean, nobody's crazy enough to grant class abilities with a Bluff check.

I have no intention of abusing that in any particularly unholy manner.  Though my scruples might not survive in a life-or-death situation.    

As for the sleight of hand quick draw, I do actually think that's fair.  It's rather like fighting defensively being better than combat expertise with 25 ranks in Tumble, or getting a "free" +4 on Bardic Knowledge (a point more than Obscure Lore gives you) from 25 ranks in Knowledge (history).  It's a reasonable perk for focusing on skills.


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## Rikandur Azebol (Nov 6, 2004)

*Final Tsunami !*

Ok, here goes final incarnation of Tsunami. I hope that You will all share Your opinions about her with me.    

Tsunami,  Maug Epic Fighter, Alignment: Lawful Good

Str: 36 +13 (+6 lvl, +5 Inherent)      
Dex: 23 +6  (+5 Inherent)     
Con: -                
Int: 19 +4  (+5 Inherent)          
Wis: 17 +3  (+5 Inherent)            
Cha: 23 +6  (+5 Inherent, +4 enhancement)             

Level: 25 Fighter, 2 Construct   XP: 443,001 
BAB: +21( -1 Size)                  HP: 267 (27d10 +57)
Grapple: +34                          Speed: 140'          
Init: +6 (+6 Dex)                
AC: 45(-1 Size, +5 Dex, +12 Natural, +12 Armour, +8 Braces, +4 Shield, +5 Deflection )

Meele Weapon : Scimitar +41 AB, d8 +20 magic dmg.
Ranged Weapon : Longbow  +32 AB, 2d6 +13 normal dmg.

Class and Racial Abilities:
Construct traits, Fighter bonus feats, Pulverize, OC 39, +4 Racial bonus for Craft (Stonemasonry) and Knowledge (Architecture and Enginerring), Grafts.

Feats: (6 standard, 10 Fighter Bonus, 3 Epic, 2 Fighter Epic)
Alterness (Racial)
Nymph's Kiss (Exlated)
Weapon Focus: Scimitar (FB)
Combat Expertise (FB)
Iron Will
Weapon Specialisation: Scimitar (FB)
Run
Improved Critical Hit: Scimitar (FB)
Mighty Leaping
Dodge (FB)
Mobility (FB)
Great Fortitude
Spring Attack (FB)
Large and in Charge
Improved Toughness (FB)
Fleet of Foot
Whirlwind Attack (FB)
Epic Fortitude
Improved Whirlwind Attack (FEB)
Epic Weapon Focus :Scimitar (FEB)
Epic Speed
Legendary Leaper

Languages: Common, Elven, Celestial.

Saves:.......Base: Ability: Other: Magic: Final:
Fort...........+14.....+0......+6......+5......+25
Ref............+8.......+6.......-.......+5......+19
Will............+8.......+3......+2......+5......+18

Skill Points: 164/7      Max Ranks: 30/15
Skills:........................Ranks...Mod......Syn...Misc..Total
Climb.........................28......+13(Str)...-......-2....+39
Craft (Stonemasonry)...28......+4 (Int)....-......+4....+36
Handle Animal.............28......+6 (Cha)...-......-......+34
Intimidate..................28......+6 (Cha)...-......-.....+34
Jump.........................28......+13(Str)...-....+92...+133
Diplomacy(CrossClass)..6.......+6 (Cha)...-......-.....+12
Craft(Bowmaking)........12......+4 (Int)....-.......-.....+16

Equipment: (295 gp left)
Internal Shrudder Plate (8000 gp)
Maug graft, giving tremorsense 15'. Tsunami, unlike other Maug have very acute sense of touch. Wich allows her to sense even the smallest movements and fight against foes even blinded.

"Heart Guardian" Cloak of Protection, +5 Resistance bonus to saves, +5 Enhancement bonus to Natural Armour (87,500 gp)
*Cloaks like this are made for Heart Guard Champion, because old Champion's cloak is buried with him. Unfortunately, Tsunami is a last Champion ... so when she will fall in battle there will be nobody to bury her with all glory.*

"Loyalty" Ring of Greater Elemental Resistance, Ironskin and Rapid Healing (1,174,000 gp)
Rapid Healing was customized to repair constructs, no other creature would benefit from this power.
*This badge of honor and utter loyalty for the Golden Empress was bestowed upon Tsunami for defending palace against overhelming odds for 180 days. Then also Tsunami get infamous title of Thousand Men Slayer.*

"Protectors" Braces of Defense +8 (64,000 gp)
*After bathing in the Endless Falls, many common items possesed by Tsunami gained great power. My archer's braces started emanating protective aura.*

"Wavesplitter" Large, Wounding, Keen, Throwing and Returning Scimitar +5 (200,500 gp)
*This blade is ancient, but elusive marid Wavesplitter were just smiling mysteriously when questioned about his gift. It's simple looks hide well the real power slumbering inside. So I named it after him.*

"Devotion" Mithral Shield of Exceptional Arrow Deflection +2 (1,001,000 gp)
*After particular battle in wich rebelling warlock hired giants who nearly killed Golden Empress, throwing great boulders at unexpected range. It is Tsunami who were nearly destroyed while shielding wounded Empress with her own body. Empress gifted her personal Champion with this shield, to prevent such incidents in the future. How wrong she were.*

"Golden General" Glamered Warlord's Breastplate (418,900 gp)
*Book of War states that leader must be seen by his soldiers. All Maug teachings agree on that that without faith in the discipline, army breaks. It's consitency depends on leader. And nothing increases morale more than trustworthy general who also is impressive. That's why I ordered creation of impressive looking breatplate ... And since Her August Higness, may she rule untroubled, ordered me to wear things ... unpractical, charm was placed on the armour to make it look as fashion demands. Again, bath in Endless Falls magnified it's potency tenfold.*

"Indepedence" Ring of Freedom of Movement, Feather Fall and Protection +5 (113,300 gp)
*A token of admiration from Toul'esvirr ... poet full of rhymes and melancholy, only if he would appreciate something avaible to him. No, he must admire  impossibility ! But, from other side ... he were seeming happy just to hang around and create poems about my exploits. I don't understand what romantic he sees in the war ? He seen enough of it to know reality ... Guess that all fleshborn are crazy.*

"Earth's Child Mark" Torc of Jumping, +30 Insight bonus to Jump checks (180,000 gp)
*Druids dwelling in the Empire teach us that all and every one of us is a child of earth's soil. For me it were doubly true ... my very flesh were crafted from earth bones. And this torc is a mark of favour given to remind me of that fact.*

Sandals of Swiftness (256,000 gp)
*"You are so slow and clumsy." Her August Higness, may she rule in peace, told me oneday ... And the next day one of her admirers presented me with pair of beautiful sandals. But I don't allowed him to sing in Moon's Garden. And thanked him, as is properly.*

"Three Oaks" Large,Composite Longbow of Distance +5 with max. Strength Bonus +13 (73,800 gp)
*To enter Spring Festival's archery contest I needed a bow. And with the help of fine elven bowmakers this masterpiece was created. And Spring Festival have gained a new event for archers. Straining Tsunami's Bow. Many Champion wannabees resigned after this first test of their might. Those who suceeded without aid were rarer than educated orc. Unless they were Giants, of course.*

"Giant Beltpurse" Bag of Holding, type VI (10,000 gp)
*This beltpurse was spoil of capturing famous Giant bandit, Stonehead.*

"Hard Training" Equivalent of Manual of Gainful Exercise, Manual of Quickness of Action, Tome of Clear Thought, Tome of leadership and influence and Tome of understanding. All +5 (687,500 gp)
*It were a rare honour, to be chosen for personal training with great Thulkarr ... Requiments were high, even for me. And in the end I heard that with such soft heart I should go farming, not to war. Venerable old bastards, I like them even more now, knowing some of them.*

"Leprechaun's Quiver" (4,700 gp)
Mix of Efficient Quiver with Handy Haversac, to give Handy properity to the quiver. 
*I never understanded, and probably will never understand fey ... One day She claims to hate me all her heart for stamping on her garden during the fight. Next day she gives me with quiver, to not spill arrows like she said.*

"Stoneshatter" Maul of the Titans (25,305 gp)
*When, shortly after the Giant's War, rumour spread about Giant destroying mountain peaks for sport ... Dwarves petitioned their liege, Golden Empress, to do something ... for they would go to the war instantly and wipe out their hated foes forever. She send me, and her best tracker ... And we killed murderously insane, nameless Titan. I took his hammer to return someday and enscribe name on his gravestone. Now it's impossible ... I have nowhere to return.*

"Endless Falls Blessing" Pearl of the Sirines (30,600 gp)
Irremovable, that is what doubled the cost. 
*Oneday, Her August Majesty wished to see sacred falls for herself, wich granted her bloodline with eternal youth. As usual she understimated strength of the stream and nearly drowned ... I didn't knew that I can swim that fast. Everybody say that after the unwanted bath I look more alive, and my hair despite being of marble started moving like those of fleshborn. She spotted that and ordered me to keep my hair right to the fashion ... sigh.*

"Icon" Phylactery of Faithfulness (1000 gp)
*Sometimes all we need to remember who we are is small reminder. This icon of Her August Majesty is such reminder for me.*

Scabbard of Keen Edges(16,000 gp)
*To keep my sword sheated, that was the purpouse of scabbard. After the bath it keep my blade sharp and keen. But I won't fire lieutenant just because of that. It simply decreased amount of his duties.*

"Mark of the Golden Champion" Headband of Telepathy (27,000 gp)
*All who came before Golden Throne, came with their minds open and hearts pure ... that's a duty of Golden Champion.*

Luckstone (Nonmagical)
*I was born as soldier, and will never forgot my begginings. And since this piece of Acheron's land kept me alive trough my many exploits, battles, wars and adventures ... Soldiers need something to have faith in.*

"Gold Oak seeds" 49 Feather Tokens, Trees. (19,600 gp)
*Like old druid once said. Be ready to give something in place of this what You take. Since during the Dragon War in one of vassal kingdoms, all their forests were burned down. Golden Empress sent me with these oak seeds from her gardens ... as a sign of compassion. I hate diplomatic work, when did everybody imagined me to be some paladin or what ?*

Personality: 
Typically for a Maug, Tsunami understand everything trough prism of war. But unlike most of them her's prolonged contact with other creatures, especially citizens of the Golden Empire, opened her horizons ... a bit. Tsunami found purpouse in her eternal struggles to became better warrior. Selfperfection, to burn out weaknesses in the heat of conflict and arise better in the end than in the beggining. That's her main motivation. And unflinching loyalty towards Golden Empire.

Outlook: 
On the first look, she is like goddes of war ... More thoroughly look will reveal shocking truth. She is living statue of breathtakingly perfect woman, a work of genius ... devoted completly to his masterpiece. Gold marble was crafted in such way, that it create illusion of living flesh. Illusion deepens when she moves, because perfectly scluptured muscles move beneath golden skin as if part of living body. Even marble hair move like cirrus of gold in the wind, strong enough to move them. All doubts are dissapearing with touch. Even barest contact reveal that it is marble, despite that that it move like flesh. Her armaments are functional first, of great quality wich is visible because all are masterpieces on their own.

Background:
"Hey, Angel ! Do You remeber our last meeting ? Thou saved my existence, and this of my brethen. Since I heard that You like elefants, and don't want any rewards ... I had scluptured this image of one of the elefant-warriors from my homeland. Please, accept this small gift ..."
Planetar blushed, seeing smiling faces all around and moving her hands halfway towards the figurine of zovar wielding elefant-man, carved precisely from golden marble, very similiar to the hands that were giving it to her. Figurine was raising weapon above his head, it's expression so convicing that it were half expected that little warrior will cry his victory to the skyes at any moment. Perfectly scluptured face of a nymph was directed towards undecided Planetar, when her's face crossed emotion resembling slight worry.
"Why thou came here just now, Tsunami the Maug ?"
Asked celestial, finally reciving her gift ... her eyes filled with compassion.
"Her August Majesty decided that I should go ... And since peace finally returned to the Golden Empire, I had no work and were thrashing around and spoiling good marble. Is new offensive coming at the Bastion ?"
Asked Maug, easying her stance, as if to ready herself for inmediate fight.
"No, champion of light. I just heard strange gossip, that's all ..."
Maug laughed heartily, showing all teeth in joyfull grimace. Wich were bit unnerving to those knowing her, because Tsunami was smiling similiar way in the heat of battle.
"That the dark forces will invade my homeland ? They already did. We stopped them, and eradicated army sent against us. Great battles that will be remembered for thousands of years !"
Planetar surrouded herself with her wings as if suddenly frozen. She looked away and spoke with sad tone.
"I wasn't speaking of this ... Maybe it was just gossip. Do You need a _Gate_ to Your home ?"
Maug smiled from ear to ear, and bowed her head to the Planetar.
"I will owe You. I'm thousandfold gratefull ... Could You open it to the kingdom of Yinshin ? I have gift for druids dwelling there."
Planetar nodded, unusually quiet, and recited the spell. With loud thunderclap gate opened wide. But on the other side wasn't burned wasteland of Yinshin kingdom ... There was nothingness. Grey vortex very similar to Astral Plane, bun not it. Surrouding celestial warriors opened their eyes in wide shock of the whole situation, and Planetar dropped to her knees, disbelief written all over her face, hugging desperately figurine of the elefant warrior. She whispered.
"It cannot be ..."
Maug stared straigh into the terryfing abyss where once was her homeworld. 
"That's why she sent me away ... trough Bastion of Hope as well."
And Tsunami stepped into the gate, sinking momentarily into the abyss of nothingness. Grim faced Solar stopped one of the celestials who wanted to step in her trail.
"Don't ... Maug could wanted to die with her homeworld. It's her right. We have duties here. Eansha, could You close this gate ... please ? Let's spill blood of evil responsible for this destruction !"
Boomed Solar with powerful voice, raising troop's morale a bit after this dark event. And he looked at gathering hordes of demonkind.
"Chmm ... If nail is standing out, it will be rammed in line. That's why Demons will never give up. Come on folks ! We have fight to make."
Angels and others soldiers of light assembled on the fortress walls. Demonic roars filled etarnal night surrounding them.

Echem, and one thing ... the most important opinion. Isida, can I sneak in Tsunami to the alternates ?


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## Kelleris (Nov 6, 2004)

*sigh*

Isida, may I whip up a spell that works as invisibility for blindsight, blindsense, tremorsense, and scent?  Since Ferrix is getting blindsight from a 3rd-level minunte/level power, it shouldn't be more than 2nd or 3rd level.  I could put it on either or both of the assassin spell list or the bard spell list.

With the -80 penalty, someone with no ranks in Spot or Listen has a better than 50/50 chance of finding me with blindsight, which is granted by a spell that's all of third level.  I doubt very much I would have put up with this all the way up to 30th level when items that grant blindsight out to 60 feet continuously cost less than 100,000 gold.

It's kinda bothering me that I can't realistically sneak up to a character who has spent less than 1/43 of his gold, and no other resources, on countering one of the things I'm supposedly best at.


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## Ferrix (Nov 6, 2004)

There is a power, it's called Cloud Mind.  It conceals you from someone regardless of their types of senses.  However, it is a power which gives a will save on the part of the person who are attempting to conceal yourself from.  It is close range, level 2.  It is one target only.  The mass cloud mind is a level 6 power.



			
				srd said:
			
		

> Cloud Mind
> Telepathy [Mind-Affecting]
> Level: Psion/wilder 2
> Display: None
> ...




Sometimes there are things which just surpass the normal means of skills or imply massive penalties to them.

Oh yeah, bonuses to disguise from Alter Self should not apply when someone has True Seeing and sees right through the spell.


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## Kelleris (Nov 6, 2004)

I don't want that.  I just want a direct, arms-race style "this spell counters its opposite number of exactly the same level" sort of spell.  If I'm standing out in the open, you'll still see me.  If I wander into you without being prepared, the blindsight finds me.  I cast this spell, it negates your spell of the same level (as far as it concerns me), and I actually get to use my 64 ranks in hiding skills and piles of gold spent on them.

Considering that I'm practically the only person here who has to roll for Akumunaga's nightmare save (which is completely goosed for a high save DC), you can't honestly think that _cloud mind_ is a viable option.

And _alter self_ alters your self.  I couldn't care less if you can see my true form or not, especially since my dark stalker form looks exactly like my usual form, except with pale skin, red eyes, and significantly less flamboyant clothing. Dark stalkers have a racial bonus to Hide and Move Silently.  I get that bonus.



> Sometimes there are things which just surpass the normal means of skills or imply massive penalties to the [?]




Yes.  And then it's pretty reasonable to expect that there be some form of magical counter, isn't it?

EDIT: And that's the case I'm making.  No more out of me, Isida.


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## Ferrix (Nov 6, 2004)

The only two official spells/powers which thwart blindsight/sense are targeted spells which allow will saves (cloud mind from XPH and hide from dragons from draconomicon).  I think there is a very specific reason for that and would not suggest a spell which countered it as a blanket effect.

The only thing blindsight/sense cannot see is an ethereal creature.  So I think that is the only blanket effect which should avoid blindsight.  Which mind you is a 9th level spell.


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## Ferrix (Nov 6, 2004)

Oh yeah, Isida, I didn't realize spell casters were allowed to use the spell point option from UA.  That really takes the one advantage I have as a Psion and removes it from my domain, the ability to be able to burn my points on fewer higher level powers rather than having them systematically spread out amongst specific leveled spell slots.  Comparisons between a psion and a wizard with the spell point system shows even the wizard coming out on top.  The sorcerer is even farther on top.


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## Wrahn (Nov 6, 2004)

Again, this is NOT a competetion between players.

Quit designing your character to go against the rest of the PCs, ultimately it is futile.  If Isida wants someone to see through your hide, she will.  That someone built their character to be able to see someone who is hiding as well as you should be a good thing.

There are weaknesses with everything and you can exploit them if you use your head.  Being good at stealth is good, being completely undetectable is bad.


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## Ferrix (Nov 6, 2004)

Agrees with Wrahn.  Point taken.  Ferrix out.


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## Kelleris (Nov 6, 2004)

EDIT:  Gah.  I'm a naughty boy.  I was hoping everyone would leave it to you after I said I would, but then they got me started again...  No self-control...  Anyway, the main thing is that I wanted to correct Wrahn's assumption that I'm somehow trying to "beat" the other players.  Feel free to not read the following if the annoyance isn't worth my additional arguments.

I'm not "playing against you," I'm realizing that blindwhatever is (should be) much more ubiquitous than I thought, just like armor of heavy fortification is unrealistically common due to the exigencies of epic play.  As I've said before, I've never even made a character to play this high, much less done it before.  I really and honestly don't know what they look like, or what the tricks they use are.  I'm just trying to pick these things up quickly, before we get too far along, and I assume that NPCs are going to be at least as smart as we are (a reasonable assumption, I think).  It will be much less of a pain for everyone involved if I do it now, among friends, than if I try something in a dangerous situation and have it fail catastrophically.  You are my models.  If I honestly expected your abilities to have nothing whatever to do with the abilities of our adversaries, it would be a different case.  That seems like a poor assumption to me, but I suppose I could be wrong.  Is that what you're telling me to expect?



> Being good at stealth is good, being completely undetectable is bad.




Right.  And I think that being unable to get around a 3rd-level spell effect with a fourth-level spell, a second-level spell, 64 ranks in the appropriate skills, a boosting item, a high score in the requisite ability, additional ranks from a feat, the advantages of surprise and preparedness, extensive knowledge of the sneakee, access to the two most stealth/deception-oriented spell lists in the game, and the proposed addition of another 3rd-level spell makes me bad at stealth.  Particularly when having a 3rd-level spell effect around constantly is such a trivial matter at this level.  If he had spent something akin to the amount of effort that I've spent on it, then yes, it would be wrong for me to be able to sneak around him effortlessly.  As it is, that should be the normal state of affairs, just like losing to Rahveon in melee should be the normal state of affairs (and is), and losing to Pilmer in spellcasting should be the normal state of affairs (and is).  Stealth is a major part of what I do.  It _should_ be darn-near infallible against people that throw a cheap item at the problem and call it a day.



> I think there is a very specific reason for that and would not suggest a spell which countered it as a blanket effect.




Really?  Care to name that reason?  As I read it, being completely detection-proof by someone is a Will save, and being undetectable by a given faculty that any number of creatures could possess is not, as seen in _invisibility_ (sight), _pass without trace_ (scent and tracking), _mind blank_ (any divination you care to name), _undetectable alignment_ (alignment detection), and _Nystul's magic aura_ (aura detection).  All of these are analogous to what I have in mind; none allow saves (except against a target unwilling to be protected, of course).

As you can see, I'm basically tricked out for this sort of thing, spell-wise; I have all of the above spells save _mind blank_ (and I have some other spells that cover that function almost as well).  Given the obvious track my "magical researches" (or what have you) have taken, it seems quite odd to have this gaping hole in my magical bag of tricks.  Surely you would acknowledge that blindsight and its cousins are at least as common and worth worrying about as alignment detection?



> [Re Spell Points: ] That really takes the one advantage I have as a Psion and removes it from my domain...




Ferrix - I'll change it back to slots if you would like.  I prefer this way for ease of use, but I wouldn't want to infringe on your perceived advantages in the party, especially when you've gone out of your way to extend me the same courtesy.


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Nov 7, 2004)

I did not approve spell points from UA, sorry I didn't catch that earlier Kelleris, please change them back to slots.


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Nov 7, 2004)

If you want to make a "Blind all senses," spell Kelleris, then I suggest you put it up on the home rules board, and also probably the spells and magic items board on the WotC boards.  Maybe Monte Cook's message boards as well.  I would want a lot of opinions from knowledgeable people before allowing such a thing into my game.


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## Kelleris (Nov 7, 2004)

Okay.  Just to be clear, I didn't want "all senses", I just wanted blindsight, blindsense, and tremorsense.  I would still be perfectly visible to sight, give off a smell of some sort, glow with the requisite auras, be audible when moving or speaking, and so forth.  It's just that I have something to deal with all of those other things (magic or mundane), except for this one.  It seemed rather an odd exception to make, given how much more likely I am to run across these abilities than someone trying to find me through my alignment aura or something.


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## Rikandur Azebol (Nov 7, 2004)

Yuck ! You are all complaining too much for my liking, guys.
How avoid Tremorsense ? Fly, for Christ's sake ! Tsunami have Blindsense 15' for You information. 
And how deal wit all this detection things ? Be faster. Look at my character, she isn't as good at crushing people like Rhveon, but with hit and run tactics she MAY win.

For example, beyond the range of Blind/Tremor/Whatever senses and sights. You are almost undetectable. Use spells like Expeditious Retreat, Haste and Boots of Swiftness ... and You may be able to charge in suprise round, slice opponent with Uber-Detector-sense and flee beyond his range of detection before he would have chance of reckognising that something hurted him. Stay hidden out of the range, and laugh at their more conventional searching attempts.  

Cannot walk trough the door ? Walk trough the window, that's rouges way.


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## Kelleris (Nov 7, 2004)

Er, right.

Anyway.  I posted the proposed spell here, here, and here.  I think that's all three you suggested, Isida.  I'm kinda surprised I hadn't registered at the other two before, though.


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## Wrahn (Nov 7, 2004)

Regardless of whether the spell is possible, I see two problems here:

1) Not really bardic (or at least the knowledge/musical bard that I think of, but of course that is just my opinion)

2) adding things to characters after the game has already started is what I would consider bad form.

Now if you want to commission some wizard to craft some item for you, I would say hey great, assuming (and it is a big assumption) that the spell is even possible.


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## Wrahn (Nov 7, 2004)

It also occures to me invisibility makes it very difficult to spot you, but in fact does not make you impossible to see.  (There is a spot check of DC 40 to pin point someone who is invisble)

I would say the same rules apply here DC 40 spot check to notice someone who is "invisible" to blindsight.  Completely negating your reason for having it.


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## Wrahn (Nov 7, 2004)

Sorry for the aparent pick on Kelleris theme here:

When you use _Alter Self_ to turn into a Dune Stalker, are you talking about the Dune Stalker in MM2 pg88?  If so, you can't use _Alter Self_ or _Polymorph_ to change into one.


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## Ferrix (Nov 7, 2004)

I think an ingenious trick to pull Kelleris (though really hazardous) would be to travel in a vacuum bubble.  Although the obvious bubble of nothingness might give someone using blindsense/sight a clue that something is odd there, they wouldn't be able to immediately detect you per say as blindsense/sight doesn't function in a vacuum.

Just figured I'd give you a way to perhaps defeat it within existing rules by some creative means.


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## Kangaxx (Nov 7, 2004)

I'm in 4 active games right now, 2 of which have been running since about when I joined in April.  This one has the longest OOC thread.  I don't really have a point here, I just thought it was funny.


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## Kelleris (Nov 7, 2004)

Wrahn - The following spells are all on the bard spell list, core rules only:

Darkness
Detect Scrying
Disguise Self
False Vision
Glibness
Invisibility
Invisibility, Greater
Invisibility Sphere
Lullaby
Misdirection
Mislead
Nystul's Magic Aura
Project Image
Sculpt Sound
Seeming
Silence
Undetectable Alignment
Veil
Ventriloquism
Zone of Silence

As you can see, deceiving senses of various kinds is most certainly in their MO.  All of these spells are gained at or before the wizard spell level, and you'll notice that 3 (zone of silence for sound, sculpt sound for a whole party's sounds, and glibness for magical lie detection) are actually exclusive to the bard.  Nor do they pick and choose which sense to block.  There's pretty much every flavor of magical or mundane sense here, with the glaring exception of blindsight and blindsense.

Likewise, the assassin spell list shows an egregious concern for remaining undetected, but it's obviously a considerably less deep list to draw from.

As for bad form, I am begging a certain amount of leeway here, since I haven't played or DMed epic before.  I don't doubt that tweaks here and there will be necessary.  Aside from that, I would like to point out (no offense to OneAboveAll) that we're playing with someone who doesn't even have a character posted in the RG thread yet.  I was also careful to point out the problem I saw as soon as I noticed it, and before it could have had any possible impact on the game in one way or the other.  Fortunately, at the beginning of the game we're also "among friends", as it were, and I'm not going to be deciding any crucial context or plot point one way or the other for a while.



			
				Wrahn said:
			
		

> I would say the same rules apply here DC 40 spot check to notice someone who is "invisible" to blindsight. Completely negating your reason for having it.






			
				SRD said:
			
		

> If you are invisible, you gain a +40 bonus on Hide checks if you are immobile, or a +20 bonus on Hide checks if you’re moving.




That mostly covers it, but I'm not even asking for that much.  I'm not even getting total invisibility to blindsight - it just downgrades to normal vision.  No +40 or +20 bonuses for me.



			
				Wrahn said:
			
		

> When you use Alter Self to turn into a Dune Stalker...




Did I say dune stalker?  Apologies.  I meant _dark_ stalker, in the _Fiend Folio_.  The dune stalker has too many HD, and isn't even a humanoid.  Also, it doesn't really work for my "form of...  a NINJA!" spell.  It's on page 37 of that book.  You'll note that I'm net getting any bonuses at the moment (insufficiently shadowy); it's more of an rp marker signifying that Arion is in a rather different frame of mind than usual.



			
				Ferrix said:
			
		

> I think an ingenious trick to pull Kelleris (though really hazardous) would be to travel in a vacuum bubble...




And how on earth would I pull that off, assuming it's even a good idea?  Forming vacuum bubbles is way outside the bardic bag of tricks, much more so than shielding a creature from a given sense of perception.
 

And developing new spells is, after all, well within the rules.  It's in the core rulebooks, as a matter of fact.

Kangaxx - Epic games just require a really light touch to keep from degenerating into something we would presumably not want to play.  Witness all the haggling over items before.  I mostly kept to pretty within-bounds items, but there are some other spell/skill things I need to be sure of before this gets too far along.


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## Ferrix (Nov 7, 2004)

No idea about creating a vacuum, but it's a way cooler and NINJA trick than just having a spell to do your dirty work for you ;-)


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## Kelleris (Nov 7, 2004)

If you can cite a single source that has a ninja with a vacuum generator, I might be more convinced, 'cuz I can't think of any.  Ninja french maids don't count.  And I actually think that a spell is better, flavorwise, for three reasons:

Ninjas are supernatural.  Supernaturally awesome!    
Blindsight is a strictly D&Dified sense, so it makes sense that the counter would be equally ahistorical.
What do you think I'm using all of my other spells for?  This fits in much better than one weird contrived methodology.


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## Ferrix (Nov 7, 2004)

All my suggestion was, was an idea that you could maybe use at some point to get around blindsight depending upon circumstances (lure a giant blindsensing dragon guard into a vacuous room, which I'd imagine might not be too uncommon at epic levels, and he can no longer sense you by blindsight).  Not a 24/7 fix-all which seems to be what you are looking for.


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## Kangaxx (Nov 7, 2004)

Should I assume everyone just ignored Pilmer's little speech?  Because that seems to be the case in IC thread, but nobody actually said so.  They just didn't respond.


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## Kelleris (Nov 7, 2004)

This isn't 24-7 fix-all either.  It lasts for a minute/level.  If I'm just scouting ahead, there's a good chance I won't have it up (3rd-level slots don't grow on trees, y'know).  I also can't hide after attacking or doing some other hostile action, regardless of whether I have forewarning or not.  This just lets me sneak up to someone or something that I know has the ability once, if I have time and opportunity to prepare by casting a short-duration spell.

Kangaxx - Sorry.  I feel all hiatused right now, or I'd've said something.  Want me to pop you a quick bit of telepathy?  Nothing like out-of-the-blue telepathy to stoke the fires of paranoia!


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## Ferrix (Nov 7, 2004)

Just some notes:

Some forms of blindsight/sense are negated when the creature is deafened/silenced/etc.  When a creature has blindsight/sense it is often described how it attains this information, and if it's a very specific way (a bat's sonar) it says when it doesn't work (silenced).  Also some forms of blindsight/sense require line of effect, therefore you can hide behind a physical object and they still don't notice you.

Tremorsense is often foiled if you aren't in contact with the ground itself (going tree to tree, or onto a table, wall can get you away from this).


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## Kelleris (Nov 7, 2004)

Yep, and standing behind a rock or in a fog bank prevents people from seeing you, but it doesn't make _invisibility_ any less useful.  Also, not every creature with the ability specifies how it gets it; oozes and dragons, for example.


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Nov 7, 2004)

Well, perhaps you cannot sneak up on your fellow Epic characters, but I guarantee you will be all but undetectable to most other creatures in the multiverse.  Let's let this conversation quiet for now, and continue with the IC plotting.  Nit-picking abilities can wait for a while, okiday?


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## Wrahn (Nov 7, 2004)

I looked at the bard spell list later, I think your case is strong enough that I won't further add to that mess.

On the second point, if your character has some deficiency (and it is an if) then it is FUN to try and find ways around it.  Believe me, playing the invulnerable ungodly powerful guy gets boring.  If you want such a spell to exist, research it yourself or have someone else do it for you (problems with playing a spontaneous caster).

Lastly, you can't turn into a dark stalker either (You are half-fey, your type is fey and you can only change into things of your own type)  Also, just so there isn't some misunderstanding, you would gain +2 natural armor from being a Dark Stalker, the spell only gives you the gross physical qualities, not extraordinary abilities.


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Nov 7, 2004)

Also - Rikandur Azebol, I haven't had time to go over Tsunami closely, but she looks like a really fun character.    You can post her in the alternate rogue's gallery if you wish.


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## Ferrix (Nov 7, 2004)

Playin' the game!


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## Kelleris (Nov 7, 2004)

Doi!  Completely forgot that my type changed.  Thanks for the catch.  I wouldn't be so worried about blindsight if it wasn't so darn common, especially at epic levels.  If it was class ability granted by 7 levels of a specific prestige class or something, it would be a different thing entirely.  But it's an ability granted by a cheap item that a pretty large number of creatures (and maybe NPCs, if they realize how powerful his ability is and how little it costs).  There are entire types and subtypes of creatures that are just assumed to have it.  And I do enjoy finding ways around things, but this just seems too... endemic to the game to not be covered by a pretty standard ability.  I want to have all the really basic things covered, so the DM can throw us for a loop with something creative.  It should take something really powerful or unusual to surprise someone who's XPed their way up to 30th level.


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## Kangaxx (Nov 7, 2004)

Kelleris said:
			
		

> Kangaxx - Sorry.  I feel all hiatused right now, or I'd've said something.  Want me to pop you a quick bit of telepathy?  Nothing like out-of-the-blue telepathy to stoke the fires of paranoia!




You shouldn't act out of character just to say hi.  I was wondering more about Solarion and Sigrun who appear to have just stood still for an hour while Caira and Rahveon (who I'm assuming did actually ignore Pilmer since they left) did their thing.

Edit:  Nevermind, life moved on while I was typing the post.


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## Kangaxx (Nov 7, 2004)

I'm going to need some more info for the upcoming conversation.  Isida, how feasible would it be to attack the gods?  Are they known to reside on certain planes or places where we could hunt them down, as per normal D&D canon?  

Pilmer has Knowledge(religon) +24 and Knowledge(the planes) +23 if applicable.


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Nov 7, 2004)

There are places and planes where the gods reside, though they are difficult to get into, of course, and heavily guarded.  Such things are canon to anyone with religious training.


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## Kelleris (Nov 7, 2004)

What cosmology are we looking at here?  Are there multiple primes?  If so, how many?  If lots, do they all share more-or-less the same pantheon (perhaps in different guises)?


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## Kelleris (Nov 7, 2004)

Oh, and one other thing.  How special are we?  Have there been historical figures as or more powerful than we are, or is this a pinnacle-of-evolution kind of thing?


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Nov 7, 2004)

There are other primes, but most of the Endless Falls regarded them as little more than academic curiosities, if they regarded them at all, because whatever they had, the Endless Falls had them in far more potent measure.  These other primes do indeed share the same pantheon in different guises, with several minor gods and demigods that are only worshipped on a single prime. 

As for you guys, you are the most powerful and important beings that ever were (and ever shall be) on the Endless Falls.  You were the pinacle of your world.

Ferrix - Sigrun knows that the people here represent the great powers of the Endless Falls.  They are the most powerful people ever to have walked on your world.  The one thing they all have in common is that they all bathed in the Endless falls at one point in their life.  The pieces of earth collected here represent some of the best of the most fantastic places of the Endless Falls, the tip of the highest mountain, the middle of the endless tundra, the heart of greenest forest, etc.


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## Kelleris (Nov 8, 2004)

> As for you guys, you are the most powerful and important beings that ever were (and ever shall be) on the Endless Falls. You were the pinacle of your world.




I find that vaguely disturbing...


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Nov 8, 2004)

*Mr. Burns impression*  Eeeeeexcellent.


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## perivas (Nov 8, 2004)

Hopefully, this won't be taken as bad form...given someone's earlier comment here.  However, I would like to note that I had earlier made a few changes to Loudbark, which were not picked up by Isida's description of him...namely, his levels as a Barbarian 2/Champion of Gwynharwyf 9 and CG alignment.  I have corrected those inconsistencies in his character sheet.  Thanks!

BTW, I don't have blindsense/blindsight.  I paid $300k for a ring of sequester, which (according to your type of logic Kelleris) is completely uselss since everyone "seems to have" true seeing.  I was under the impression that we have what we have and that this is not an arms race.  Unless you plan on killing the other PCs, I don't know why you're so concerned about it.  If you are planning on killing the other PCs, start with me first as I have no real desire to play in a backstabbing game anyways;P


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## Kelleris (Nov 8, 2004)

Well, I doubt very strongly I could off any of you anyway.

Not that I'm planning to...

The arms-race thing was not a PC-PC example.  I meant that, in world where blindsight is fairly common, there would logically be a way to counter it.  That's how these things work.  And shouldn't a ring of sequester make you unconscious?  I suppose it isn't continuous.  Actually, that would be annoying anyway.  We'd all have to ignore you.


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## Kangaxx (Nov 8, 2004)

perivas said:
			
		

> Hopefully, this won't be taken as bad form...given someone's earlier comment here.  However, I would like to note that I had earlier made a few changes to Loudbark, which were not picked up by Isida's description of him...namely, his levels as a Barbarian 2/Champion of Gwynharwyf 9 and CG alignment.  I have corrected those inconsistencies in his character sheet.  Thanks!
> 
> BTW, I don't have blindsense/blindsight.  I paid $300k for a ring of sequester, which (according to your type of logic Kelleris) is completely uselss since everyone "seems to have" true seeing.  I was under the impression that we have what we have and that this is not an arms race.  Unless you plan on killing the other PCs, I don't know why you're so concerned about it.  If you are planning on killing the other PCs, start with me first as I have no real desire to play in a backstabbing game anyways;P




I asked this earlier, but never got a response.  What is the ring of sequester supposed to do?  Normally the spell makes anything it targets comatose, which really limits its use for stealth.


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## perivas (Nov 8, 2004)

Kangaxx said:
			
		

> I asked this earlier, but never got a response.  What is the ring of sequester supposed to do?  Normally the spell makes anything it targets comatose, which really limits its use for stealth.




Well, according to the Epic Level Handbook, the special part of the ring is that it does not make one comatose, when wearing it!  It's the "ultimate" ring of "invisibility" and "nondetection" basically.


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## Ferrix (Nov 8, 2004)

Since I might as well see if I can get help from all you folks: http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=106452

Trying to get some feedback on some rules I'm hoping to use in an upcoming PbP game.


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## Rikandur Azebol (Nov 8, 2004)

Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> Also - Rikandur Azebol, I haven't had time to go over Tsunami closely, but she looks like a really fun character.    You can post her in the alternate rogue's gallery if you wish.




Thank You, Isida. 

Tsunami funny ? Nay, fleshborn are crazy that is her point of view.


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## Wrahn (Nov 8, 2004)

Kangaxx said:
			
		

> You shouldn't act out of character just to say hi.  I was wondering more about Solarion and Sigrun who appear to have just stood still for an hour while Caira and Rahveon (who I'm assuming did actually ignore Pilmer since they left) did their thing.
> 
> Edit:  Nevermind, life moved on while I was typing the post.




I had posted what Rahveon had done before you had posted.  Plenty of other people to talk to so I didn't split timelines.  I didn't intend it as a slight, just being pragmatic.


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## Ferrix (Nov 8, 2004)

I guess I should have invested ranks into Craft (worldmaking) and Craft (lifeform)  Unless you let me shift some ranks around post-haste.

Isida, With my general skill spread, is there any answer I can bring to the table that might be reasonable?  The only thing I could think of off the top of my head was some combination of the powers: Genesis, Reality Revision and True Creation.

I think it would be interesting in the future for Sigrún to research a power or spread of powers that would allow him to literally create new life and sentience.

+80 Craft (sculpting) [33 ranks, +14 Int, +30 Circumstance]
+50 Psicraft [33 ranks, +14 Int]
+49 Concentration [33 ranks, +6 Con, +10 Circumstance]
+39 Use Psionic Device [33 ranks, +6 Cha]
+50 Knowledge (Psionics) [33 ranks, +14 Int]
+34 Knowledge (architecture & engineering) [20 ranks, +14 Int]
+30 Knowledge (history) [16 ranks, +14 Int]
+24 Knowledge (local) [10 ranks, +14 Int]
+24 Knowledge (geography) [10 ranks, +14 Int]
+23 Appraise [9.0 ranks, +14 Int]
+34 Craft (alchemy) [20 ranks, +14 Int]
+34 Craft (blacksmithing) [20 ranks, +14 Int]
+34 Craft (stonemasonry) [20 ranks, +14 Int]
+34 Craft (carpentry) [20 ranks, +14 Int]


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## Wrahn (Nov 8, 2004)

Ferrix said:
			
		

> I guess I should have invested ranks into Craft (worldmaking) and Craft (lifeform)  Unless you let me shift some ranks around post-haste.




And you thought world building was just for GMs 


I don't think it will be that easy.  Rahveon really isn't asking you to recreate a world in the image of the Endless Falls, he is asking you to restore the Endless Falls.

I think we have a seed here, but I think we are talking God level juju here.  I think, while the Architect is certainly the person most likely able to weild it, we are talking stealing the power of a god, or something like the Tablet of Fate (From the Babylonian Mythos)


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## Ferrix (Nov 8, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> And you thought world building was just for GMs




I knew it! Isida was just slouching out of her duties... making me do all the grunt work...


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## Kelleris (Nov 8, 2004)

Well, we don't have any epic spellcasting, and I highly doubt _wish_ and its kindred will do anything, since practically all of us can manage that effect.

We don't really have a lot to go on, actually.  I would suggest that we find a deity who participated in the destruction - a weaker one, that we could wield some influence over if s/he gets difficult - and get the inside story.  If practically all the gods were involved, with all those different ideologies and alignments, that strikes me as an alliance waiting to be pried open.

Granted, we'd probably have to deal with an evil god of some sort, but an ambitious demigod or lesser deity could hardly turn down the proffered services of a half-dozen 30th-level characters, no matter what the risks are.  S/he will be planning a double-cross later, but I'm sure that's something we can prepare for.


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## Ferrix (Nov 8, 2004)

Well Genesis is specifically designed to create a demiplane and expand it, I'm sure with at least some assistance through wishes/reality revision it might be able to start slowly expanding our bubble.  Although it's an expensive XP expenditure.

I'm just looking from the direct powers my character has, also for suggestions from Isida on what might be a good route to be going on.


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## Wrahn (Nov 8, 2004)

Kelleris-

I should have looked over your character more and your items less:

Your Hit Points are wrong, you get a d8 + Con for every ECL, you get max at first (in this case the d8) and 75% of maximum for the rest, so:

8+(28x6x.75=126)+(10x1x.75=7)+(30x6=180)=319

You have the feats Practice Spell Caster (from the Complete Divine) and Arcane Strike (from the Complete Warrior) which are not on the approved book list.

Are your scrolls just flavor text for your epic feats or are they an actual item.  If they are an item, did you list a cost for them I missed?

I don't remember Isida allowing Item Familiar from the UA, but I could just be forgetting about it. 

Craft Masterpiece Performance is from a Dragon I think, but did you spend Experience to get the benefits?  I think you need to detail what you did with this (if anything).

Where is Battle Dance from?  (I vaguely remember it as a class ability from the BoEMII)

Is the Single Blade Style one of the styles from the Complete Warrior (and the corresponding problem with books not on the accepted list)?

What does the [invested] mean by your characters skills?

Where is the Fruit of Mottlegrasp's orchard from?  What does it do (I am curious)

What is [IB], (HB), and (AB) (next to your feats) mean.  (I am guessing HB is human bonus, but AB and IB?)


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## Kelleris (Nov 8, 2004)

Some quick notes, rp-wise, since I suspect my IC actions are going to be controversial to some degree:

First off, I'll say again, for emphasis, that I'm not trying to play your characters for you.  I just wanted some way to represent my character's rhetorical abilities, and that's what skill checks are for.

Second, some comments on Arion's personality (it's still something I'm thinking about, hence no character sheet entry).  He's not exactly stubborn, but he is used to being right, which explains his forthrightness.  The disparity between his Wisdom and his Intelligence - which is something that I've always had to work with in previous versions of this character - was important enough that I left it intact.  It does mean that he has a hard time picturing himself in other people's viewpoints, so he genuinely believes that his idea is the only reasonable one.  If you can convince him otherwise, he'll be just as staunchly for your idea, but you have to do so with bias-neutral reasons (to whatever degree that's possible).


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## Kelleris (Nov 8, 2004)

> Your Hit Points are wrong, you get a d8 + Con for every ECL, you get max at first (in this case the d8) and 75% of maximum for the rest, so:




Oh.  Didn't realize Isida had a special method.  You asked a while back, but she never said yes or no, so I just went ahead and rolled.



> You have the feats Practice Spell Caster (from the Complete Divine) and Arcane Strike (from the Complete Warrior) which are not on the approved book list.




The Practiced Spellcaster feat is just copy/paste from a 13th-level character sheet.  I'd like to keep it (to keep my caster level at my character level of 29), but I'll ask Isida.  I'm using Arcane Strike from Dragon, since I despise the Complete Warrior rewrite.  This version is +2 to one attack per spell level expended, and +1d6 damage per spell level damage to that attack.  It's actually worse for me than the Complete Warrior version, but like I said, I despise that version.



> Are your scrolls just flavor text for your epic feats or are they an actual item. If they are an item, did you list a cost for them I missed? ... Craft Masterpiece Performance is from a Dragon I think, but did you spend Experience to get the benefits? I think you need to detail what you did with this (if anything).




The scrolls are the masterpiece performance in question - the effects are detailed there.  It is from a Dragon.  I paid full market value for them instead of XP, though I did background-wise make some of them myself.



> I don't remember Isida allowing Item Familiar from the UA, but I could just be forgetting about it.




I talked her into it many moons (er, pages) ago.



> Where is Battle Dance from? (I vaguely remember it as a class ability from the BoEMII)




Don't own the BoEMII.  It's from the epic issue of Dragon.



> Is the Single Blade Style one of the styles from the Complete Warrior (and the corresponding problem with books not on the accepted list)?




Nope, it's the swashbuckler issue of, you guessed it, Dragon.



> What does the [invested] mean by your characters skills?




Invested in Akumunaga, my Item Familiar.  I get the bonus before the slash continually, and only have the higher bonus when the sword is drawn.



> Where is the Fruit of Mottlegrasp's orchard from? What does it do (I am curious)




One of the example planar sites in the DMG.  They grant inherent bonuses to stats.  I just used them instead of the tomes because I like the flavor better and it means that I'll get to compose something about Arion defeating a [insert powerrful monster here] story into my background later.



> What is [IB], (HB), and (AB) (next to your feats) mean. (I am guessing HB is human bonus, but AB and IB?)




IB = Item bonus (from gloves of arrow catching, slotless), and AB = assassin bonus, swapped out for 3d6 sneak attack.  I have no real use for 3d6 SA, so I asked Isida a while ago if I could grab that instead, as per Unearthed Arcana.  She agreed, and so there you go.


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## Wrahn (Nov 8, 2004)

Um, Kelleris...

Perform: Oratory is for telling stories.  If we were to follow the proper NPC reaction, you would be rewarded with 3d6 gold.  Perhaps followed by weaping and applauds for a truly epic story.  People would tell their children about having seen Arion perform the epic of Solun.

The skill you need to roll is Diplomacy, if you wanted to include a story into your Diplomacy check, I am sure that Isida could be presuaded to give you a bonus but telling us stories alone is not going to change our opinions one iota.

As far as detailing your points bullet style, I think you should make your point in character and then roll.  While obviously you can't mimic your character "awesomeness" at social interaction, you can give us some idea of how you are presenting it.  [condesending jerk]Remember this is Role-playing, not Roll-playing[/condesending jerk]

Thanks for the answers to my previous questions btw.


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## Rikandur Azebol (Nov 8, 2004)

Kelleris said:
			
		

> Well, we don't have any epic spellcasting, and I highly doubt _wish_ and its kindred will do anything, since practically all of us can manage that effect.
> 
> We don't really have a lot to go on, actually.  I would suggest that we find a deity who participated in the destruction - a weaker one, that we could wield some influence over if s/he gets difficult - and get the inside story.  If practically all the gods were involved, with all those different ideologies and alignments, that strikes me as an alliance waiting to be pried open.
> 
> Granted, we'd probably have to deal with an evil god of some sort, but an ambitious demigod or lesser deity could hardly turn down the proffered services of a half-dozen 30th-level characters, no matter what the risks are.  S/he will be planning a double-cross later, but I'm sure that's something we can prepare for.




Generally, You are right and wrong in the same moment. 

A Deity who would need services of band of mortals ... Is really weak one, like Iuz from Oerth, at least for the task that is standing before the Scions.

And I will fiercely disagree that _Wish_ wouldn't help. Small steps ... One _Wish_ probably wouldn't do much. But hundred ? Or thousand ? Hire a wizard ... And I could borrow my favourite one as a NPC for Isida. He is currently on the quest of collecting _Wish_ scrolls. His name is Azebol, Rikandur Azebol. CE, Half-fiend, 18 lvl VILE wizard. 

And yes, one of his wet dreams is _Wish_-machine. Poor thing didn't know that it requies Epic skills to make ... DM is prematurely cackling.   

And one more question ... How will You find Your way out of Endless Falls remmants ? You are not a wizard, nor planewalker.   

Sorry for nagging. Couldn't stop myslef.


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## Kangaxx (Nov 8, 2004)

I'm going to 2nd Wrahn's request for an actual speech instead of a bullet point summary.  We understand that what you type won't be as eloquent as what Arion says, but it's hard to have an intelligent discussion when you say Arion says this is the way things are, perform +126 to make it sound good.  While it'd be amusing for me to say Pilmer responds with bald-faced lies, bluff +52 to make you believe him, I think the game is degenerating at that point.  If you're having trouble composing the speech, perhaps you could post the bullets in the OOC thread and see if Isida is willing to help you fill in a few blanks.  In summary: IC thread for IC stuff.

Btw, the sense motive check was directed entirely at Solarion.  I know that's not even supposed to work, but I thought it was the best way to represent Pilmer attempting to read the thoughts behind the words.  I think OneAboveAll missed that Pilmer's last post was telepathic, and was indeed responding to it.  So once again I decided to just roll with it rather than trying to edit posts.


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## Rikandur Azebol (Nov 8, 2004)

Kelleris said:
			
		

> Well, we don't have any epic spellcasting, and I highly doubt _wish_ and its kindred will do anything, since practically all of us can manage that effect.
> 
> We don't really have a lot to go on, actually.  I would suggest that we find a deity who participated in the destruction - a weaker one, that we could wield some influence over if s/he gets difficult - and get the inside story.  If practically all the gods were involved, with all those different ideologies and alignments, that strikes me as an alliance waiting to be pried open.
> 
> Granted, we'd probably have to deal with an evil god of some sort, but an ambitious demigod or lesser deity could hardly turn down the proffered services of a half-dozen 30th-level characters, no matter what the risks are.  S/he will be planning a double-cross later, but I'm sure that's something we can prepare for.




Generally, You are right and wrong in the same moment. 

A Deity who would need services of band of mortals ... Is really weak one, like Iuz from Oerth, at least for the task that is standing before the Scions.

And I will fiercely disagree that _Wish_ wouldn't help. Small steps ... One _Wish_ probably wouldn't do much. But hundred ? Or thousand ? Hire a wizard ... And I could borrow my favourite one as a NPC for Isida. He is currently on the quest of collecting _Wish_ scrolls. His name is Azebol, Rikandur Azebol. CE, Half-fiend, 18 lvl VILE wizard. 

And yes, one of his wet dreams is _Wish_-machine. Poor thing didn't know that it requies Epic skills to make ... DM is prematurely cackling.   

And one more question ... How will You find Your way out of Endless Falls remmants ? You are not a wizard, nor planewalker.   

Sorry for nagging. Couldn't stop myslef.


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## Kelleris (Nov 8, 2004)

Uhm, not so much.  Storytelling is _one part_ of Perform (oratory).  Another part is persuasive speech-making, a la Cicero or Martin Luther King, Jr.  That's what I'm doing.  Diplomacy is haggling out a solution, this is me telling you what the best idea is.  I will likely lose ground when we start to debate it, but I will start from a very persuasuve case.

Rules-wise, you'll note that Perform is functionally identical to Diplomacy as far as influencing others is concerned.  If I was wrangling out a compromise of some sort, I'd have to roll Diplomacy.  I'm not.  I'm making the strongest possible case in one presentation.

As far as the way I put it, I did tell you what I was saying and how I was saying it.  However, I have to assume that a large portion of the skill of speaking ex tempore is the actual words you use.  Arion's actual words are a whole heck of a lot more interesting, persuasive, carefully worded, and so forth than anything I could come up with.  Using my personal skill at persuading people is OOC; I can't fake Arion's skill IC by a long shot, so I made my case in a short, short version and left the embellishments and specific examples to the master.  In fact, even if I were inclined to do otherwise, I don't have the information I would need to do so, and Isida would have to write up several pages of theological and cosmological exposition for me to have that information.

It simply isn't feasible for me to do anything different than I did, any more than it would be feasible for me to attempt to write out the notes of a DC 126 piece for the violin.  I can specify what the music is _like_, why I'm doing it, and even what effect I'm going for, but the rest is to be passed over in silence.

EDIT: Rikandur Azebol - Well, I meant our personal wishy resources.  I'm sure thousands of wishes could make at least some headway.

As for leaving the plane, I'm not sure where that came from, but I suppose I would _shadow walk_ if it were just me.  I assume that Pilmer or one of the clerical spellcasters can manage gate or plane shift, though.


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## Wrahn (Nov 8, 2004)

3.5 SRD said:
			
		

> DIPLOMACY (CHA)
> Check: You can change the attitudes of others (nonplayer characters) with a successful Diplomacy check; see the Influencing NPC Attitudes sidebar, below, for basic DCs.
> 
> PERFORM (CHA)
> ...




Not trying to be a jerk here, but all those examples of what you think are oratory, are actually Diplomacy in D&D.  If you want to try and change people’s attitudes, you have to roll diplomacy.  Likewise if you want people to believe a lie, you have to roll Bluff not Perform: Acting.

The only thing Perform is good for (under the basic rules) is making money and bard music.

Think about it, Clerics who want to persuade people to join their church, follow their god, get diplomacy not perform.

You want to weave a strong message in your music to influence a crowd?  That is Diplomacy with a bonus from your Perform skill.  Want to illustrate a point in a persuasive speech?  Diplomacy with a bonus from perform.

Mechanically speaking, Perform allows you to get money.  That is all.  According to the SRD anyway, where are you getting your information?


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## Ferrix (Nov 8, 2004)

Yeehaw! Look what happens when you go to class for three hours... heheh.

Ummm... don't really want to feel like I'm butting heads with Kelleris again, or anyone for that matter, but I guess I'll poke in a bit of topic.

I don't wholly mind the way Kelleris broke it up in the way he did... but I think it would have been better to read without just being OOC text.

Something like...

Beginning his narrative Arion goes on for a good while, touching on how gods don't have free will, etc. etc. finally ending with whatever.

The performance check at the end in brackets will give us an idea of how well it went off, but it probably won't change a characters mind if they disagree on fundamental differences.  Things like that I encounter all the time in debates within my major at university (philosophy), if you don't agree on all the premises, you aren't going to get anywhere with a person usually, you just end up reaffirming your own ideas.

The rules he's looking at Wrahn are in the Epic Level Handbook in the Skills section under Perform, which basically make it like diplomacy.  Although with a check of 126, he'd only go to helpful from unfriendly (which I don't imagine we're all even indifferent to each other, we've got our agendas and issues with each other obviously).

Although I really think we should go with atleast as guidelines, although the social skills even with these guidelines really break down at epic levels... where are they... the diplomacy rules found here that make them dependant upon the level/hd of the folks you are trying to influence.

Enough blabbing...


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## Kelleris (Nov 8, 2004)

Yeah, the Giant in the Playground rules are pretty good.

Anyway, I'm using Perform (oratory) to make an oration.  I'm not even explicitly trying to convince anyone, I'm just making the case as persuasively as I can.  Although, Ferrix, the DC for unfriendly to fanatic is 120 in the SRD I was looking at.

But that's neither here nor there.  I do think you should at least seriously consider what Arion's offering.  It's not like nobody ever changes their minds on these matters anyway, and I imagine anyone who gets through an event like this without at least slightly re-evaluating their beliefs about the gods is a fool or extremely biased.  I wouldn't expect to change Pilmer's mind, since that's his life's work, but he should at least feel the need to say something about it; for anyone undecided, I should have made at least a respectable alternative.



> ...if you don't agree on all the premises, you aren't going to get anywhere with a person usually, you just end up reaffirming your own ideas...




I don't really agree with this.  Some common ground is necessary, of course, but you hardly have to agree on _all_ premises to begin with.  To argue that would mean that nobody ever changes their mind except based on purely logical deduction from available (and completely shared) premises.  That's obviously not the case; changes of opinion are much more complex than that, in all fields of discussion.  In fact, I would say that hardly anyone is ever convinced in that way.


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## Kangaxx (Nov 8, 2004)

Nevermind.  Not worth further discussion.


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## Ferrix (Nov 8, 2004)

Kelleris said:
			
		

> I don't really agree with this.  Some common ground is necessary, of course, but you hardly have to agree on _all_ premises to begin with.  To argue that would mean that nobody ever changes their mind except based on purely logical deduction from available (and completely shared) premises.  That's obviously not the case; changes of opinion are much more complex than that, in all fields of discussion.  In fact, I would say that hardly anyone is ever convinced in that way.




I'm not saying that there must be shared premises, thats barely a logical possibility no less a realistic one, I was just making a more sociological observation of how people often test their ideas by bringing up only cases which support them.  My first formulation of it in words didn't precisely come out as I had wanted it, but this above is more of what I meant.


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## Kelleris (Nov 9, 2004)

> My first formulation of it in words didn't precisely come out as I had wanted it, but this above is more of what I meant.




Fair enough.



> Nevermind. Not worth further discussion.




Dang.  Now I'm all curious.    

All I'm trying to say is that my character saw a debate (beginning), had an idea, and made a very good speech on the subject.  I have no idea why everything I do is such cause for discussion around here...  :\


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## Kelleris (Nov 9, 2004)

> If you build it, they will come...




Now, Isida, _must_ we go the movie-quote route for divinations?   

Is Arion's view a reasonable one?  (We know practically nothing OOC.)  It's a sort of variation on Athar philosophy that I thought would be interesting.  I doubt very much Arion would hold a view unsupported by anything, but you've not given us much to work with as of yet.


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## perivas (Nov 9, 2004)

Kelleris said:
			
		

> It's not like nobody ever changes their minds on these matters anyway, and I imagine anyone who gets through an event like this without at least slightly re-evaluating their beliefs about the gods is a fool or extremely biased.




Unfortunately for you, clerics *ARE* "extremely biased".  



			
				Kelleris said:
			
		

> I have no idea why everything I do is such cause for discussion around here...




The answer to the second one is simple.  In my RP experience, there are three things that either GM or PCs can do which will cause others to speak up strongly (or maybe even argumentatively).  They are:

1.  Make another PC feel worthless.
2.  Control another PC's reaction through rolls.
3.  Killing/stealing/otherwise "injuring" another PC.

I think that your questions about blindsight/blindsense/scent struck people on causes 1 and 3 to a certain extent (or at least, held insinuations in line with causes 1 and 3).  Your current point is smack dab in the middle of cause 2.  Stay away from those and there would probably be less "discussion".


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## Kelleris (Nov 9, 2004)

That's funny, since I stressed both IC and OOC that I wasn't trying to do #2, and carefully explained my reasons for doing what I did from the mechanical, roleplaying, and practical standpoints.  What does it take to convince you people?



> 1. Make another PC feel worthless.




Yes.  I do feel worthless when a 100k item prevents me from sneaking up on a bloody psion, when that's exactly my specialty.


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## perivas (Nov 9, 2004)

Kelleris said:
			
		

> Is Arion's view a reasonable one?  (We know practically nothing OOC.)  It's a sort of variation on Athar philosophy that I thought would be interesting.  I doubt very much Arion would hold a view unsupported by anything, but you've not given us much to work with as of yet.




Well, Caira admitted that it was premise many theologians argue and give it at least the full weight of other thinkers...which I thought was appropriate, given the circumstances.


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## perivas (Nov 9, 2004)

Kelleris said:
			
		

> What does it take to convince you people?




The answer is simple...not doing it.  People are a untrustworthy bunch!  Especially, when they come to the Internet


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Nov 9, 2004)

Kelleris said:
			
		

> Now, Isida, _must_ we go the movie-quote route for divinations?



  Dude, Ferrix's character is called The Architect, how could I _not?_   Besides, I wanted to convey something of that nature, and that quote is just _so_ appropriate and delightfully cryptic...


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## Wrahn (Nov 9, 2004)

Kelleris-

You used alter self to disguise yourself, Rahveon has a permanent True Seeing.  Of course he saw through it.


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Nov 9, 2004)

Gentlemen, another bout of two-page rules discussions and I shall scream.  I know you were all trying to clarify a gray area, and I do appreciate that, but this is becoming a habit.  If you have a question, post it simply, and I shall make a ruling.  Let us get on with the game, shall we?


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## Ferrix (Nov 9, 2004)

Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> Dude, Ferrix's character is called The Architect, how could I _not?_   Besides, I wanted to convey something of that nature, and that quote is just _so_ appropriate and delightfully cryptic...




That pained me... and then I laughed... or was it the other way around.  Isida, I own that movie, not the one related to the Architect (and I actually didn't even think of the name relating to that movie until someone else mentioned it)... *sigh*

True... true... we build it, the nasties come to wipe us off the face of the growing world, or so I presume or something like that.  Bummer that I'm going to probably have to burn 1000xp to start it growing if my thought that Genesis is the way to go, unless you all want to invest some energy in it.  Hrmmm...


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## Kelleris (Nov 9, 2004)

[QUOTE: ]You used alter self to disguise yourself, Rahveon has a permanent True Seeing. Of course he saw through it.

I did not use alter self to disguise myself.  I used alter self to un-disguise myself, to look like, well, _myself_ (with a +8 racial bonus to Perform checks).  There's not really a disguise to see through.  All the significant changes to my appearance are, well, let's just say that the "true seeing =/= x-ray vision" clause comes into play here.  My clothes didn't change, and my equipment doesn't change.

It all comes down what Isida decides the non-mutant range of appearances for a sirine is.  If they have the same range of appearances as the human women they look like, there isn't really anything for you to see through.

Alter self is in this case not a disguise, it's a buff spell.  I'm actually actively trying not to disguise myself.  In fact, I was trying so hard not to disguise myself that I was willing to throw a +58 luck bonus at whatever roll making myself look like myself is.

Which is all to ask Isida if I can get reasonably close to my normal appearance with that spell into that creature.


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Nov 9, 2004)

Sirines, I assume, have some variation in their features, so Kelleris could probably get pretty close.


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## Kelleris (Nov 9, 2004)

Good deal.  I guess the splinterwaif that looks coincidentally like me is no dice, though, huh?   

EDIT:  You mean Arion, though.  You don't want to run into a fey who looks like _me_!


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Nov 9, 2004)

No dice for you!


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## Kelleris (Nov 9, 2004)

Foiled again!


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## Rikandur Azebol (Nov 9, 2004)

Kelleris said:
			
		

> EDIT: Rikandur Azebol - Well, I meant our personal wishy resources.  I'm sure thousands of wishes could make at least some headway.
> 
> As for leaving the plane, I'm not sure where that came from, but I suppose I would _shadow walk_ if it were just me.  I assume that Pilmer or one of the clerical spellcasters can manage gate or plane shift, though.




Heh, especially ones buffed up with all those nasty Epic and normal metamagic feats. 

Uch, I just forgot all naughty equipment You have.  

And Kelleris, I agree with You that You may lack the skills to write the speech of Arion. But such bullet point attiude ... it may impress Tsunami, she's almost emotionaless and is susceptible to logic. To impress other people from the Scions You should describe Arion's speech ... more emotionally.

Not, his speech were impressive..   

But more akin, his words seem to reverbeate within Your hearts forever, stuff.   

And now all what You achieved is, as I see it, contrary to what You wished for.  :\


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## Ferrix (Nov 9, 2004)

Now Sigrun isn't jaded, he's actually quite wrapped up in life as it is, but that is the very reason he doesn't see the point in such clap-trap as was being discussed.


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## Wrahn (Nov 9, 2004)

Isida,

Do the Celestial Paragons, from the Book of Exalted Deed exist?


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Nov 9, 2004)

Yes they do


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## Wrahn (Nov 9, 2004)

Rikandur-

I finally got a chance to look over your character more completely.  I have a few suggestions to save a few gold pieces, mostly having to do with how you combined magic items.

I am flattered that you included a little of my background into your history.

Isida,

I don't want to complicate your life, but if I wanted to make an item that gave bonus hit points to a construct does

(Number of bonus Hit Points per Hit Dice)^2 * 4,000gp look right to you?

This would mimic enhancement Bonus to Con for the same cost, only for constructs, going epic past +3


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Nov 9, 2004)

Sure... that would work I believe.


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## Kelleris (Nov 10, 2004)

Isida - DELETIFIED



> And now all [that] [y]ou achieved is, as I see it, [the] contrary [of] what [y]ou wished for.




Yes and no.  I was expecting the reaction I got (although I did my best to explain myself), and I would have been shocked if anyone took it seriously given the way I put it.  However, I felt compelled to do so, for pretty much the reasons I gave.  Mostly I feel that the glowing PC sign shouldn't mean that my case isn't weighted more heavily when my character is in fact more persuasive than I.  It's a delicate balance to strike, so I thought I'd try this and see how everyone would react.  And now I know.



> Now Sigrun isn't jaded, he's actually quite wrapped up in life as it is, but that is the very reason he doesn't see the point in such clap-trap as was being discussed.




Nobody seemed to notice, but my speech was hardly just a blob of sophistry.  I set forth a pretty clear result of my theory (that the gods are susceptible to prediction and control given sufficient knowledge), and put forth a way to gain that knowledge (a temporary alliance with an evil and minor godlet originally part of the alliance, wheedling info out of him at the same time).  The latter is something that applies as a proposal regardless of whether you agree with my metaphysics or not.  If nobody pays any attention to said proposal, Arion's going to assume that you're just dismissing him out of hand entirely, just as you did his thoughts on the divine nature.  The latter won't bother him much (especially given the exingencies of OOC knowledge), but ignoring the former certainly will.

EDIT: Wrahn covered my thing.  Thanks.  And I find it amusing that Pilmer and I have substantially the same attitude toward the proceedings.


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## Ferrix (Nov 10, 2004)

He's not dismissing it, he just finds it currently irrelevant to current actions.  Theoretical discussion might get a theoretical answer within the limits of what is considered within the discussion, but it doesn't usually translate all that well to an imminent functional reality of action.

You'll also note that he's "dismissing" everyones point of view on the matters of metaphysics regarding gods and truth.  I imagine Arion would notice that, if he doesn't maybe that's the 7 wisdom showing through 

And by blob of sophistry, how it looks in the IC thread with point by point, leading more in a propositional "if-then" structure even though not explicitly using "if-then", has it come off as a sophist's argument where you could excise the content and so long as the logical syntax remains, it'd still be valid, but soundness is another thing all together.

Also he wasn't disregarding your suggestion about contacting an "evil" minor deific power involved in the destruction, and even Rahveon echoed a similar point regarding contacting fiends.

Maybe this is too much clap-trap.


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## Kelleris (Nov 10, 2004)

I think you're reading too much into mere format, but whatever...  I just wanted to make sure everyone caught the other part of my speech.


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## Kangaxx (Nov 10, 2004)

I vaguely remember the Court of Stars from the BoED, but I don't have easy access to that book.  So could someone give me a summary of what it is?  

Isida, are we using the canon great wheel cosmology?  I don't remember it being discussed, but that seems to be what people are using in the IC thread.  

Kelleris, I was also amused by Pilmer and Arion's similar conclusions.


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Nov 10, 2004)

Yes, we're using the great wheel, with a few dozen more extra demi-planes thrown in where needed.


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## Kelleris (Nov 10, 2004)

Pondering my questions?


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Nov 10, 2004)

Yes pondering.  These epic games require epic-level responses...


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## Kelleris (Nov 10, 2004)

Feel free to sic me on it if there's anything you want to ask or info you want me to dig up.


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## Wrahn (Nov 10, 2004)

Rikandur-

*"Loyalty" Ring of Greater Elemental Resistance, Ironskin and Rapid Healing* (1,174,000 gp)

Okay, three effects on this, all relatively expensive moving stuff around

216,000 for Greater Elemental Resisance
400,000 For Ironskin  Which I am going to suggest your replace with continuous stoneskin (109,000, 10/adamantine) since the DR 10/+5 is meaningless in 3.5

Loyalty 30 Energy resistance versus all energy types and 10/adamantine for (379,500)


*"Protectors" Braces of Defense +8* (64,000 gp)
This provides an armor bonus which does not stack with your armor, Soooo, changing things a little…

Protector +5 Luck, +5 Sacred Bonus to AC (156,250)


*"Devotion" Mithral Shield of Exceptional Arrow Deflection +2* (1,001,000 gp)

You would be better off with this little piece of cheese

Mithral Shield of Exceptional Arrow Deflection +1 (811,100)
And
25,920 24th level Magic Vestments 1/day item


Which will make Devotion a Mithral Shield of Exceptional Arrow Deflection +5.  The enchantment will last 24 hours, but can be dispelled so there is that risk, but it is cheaper and a lot more effective. (837,020)

*"Golden General" Glamered Warlord's Breastplate* (418,900 gp)

I would make this a +5 Glamered Mithral Breastplate with the same properties as the Warlord’s Breastplate (83,900gp)

*"Indepedence" Ring of Freedom of Movement, Feather Fall and Protection +5* (113,300 gp)

300,000 for Rapid Healing
75,000 +5 Deflection Bonus to AC
60,000 Freedom of Movement
3,300 Feather Fall

Ring of Rapid Healing, Freedom of Movement, +5 Protection, and Feather Fall (438,300)

*"Earth's Child Mark" Torc of Jumping*, +30 Insight bonus to Jump checks (180,000 gp)

Continuous Jump (9th level +30 Enhancement to Jump) (36,000)

Equipment: (1,020,625 gp left)

Legendary Leaper grants no benefit in 3.5, (your jump distance is no longer limited by your height)

I would seriously consider changing all your leaping feats in for

Flight, Continuous, only to imitate jumping -30% (Straight Line, must land at the end of movement) (42,000)

I would VERY Seriously consider +3 HP per Hit Dice for 36,000

You also get  3 additional hit dice for your (only HP, not BAB, Saves or Skills) for your ECL (d8s )


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## Mad Hatter (Nov 10, 2004)

Hey, Isida, I have a character idea for the campaing that I want to run by you.  Unfortunately, it is somewhat involved so I wanted to get your input and not clutter the board.  Do you mind telling me your email so that we could converse?  Thanks


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Nov 10, 2004)

Hatter - holly dot gray at gmail dot com


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## Kelleris (Nov 10, 2004)

Nice bardic knowledge check.  Now I need to decide what to do with it...      I meant the ones I asked a bit back in the OOC thread, though.

Actually, I was wondering how you felt about the spoilers.  Would you prefer open text, or maybe an e-mail instead?  I didn't want to ask for your e-mail, but since you don't seem to mind I'll use that for any questions I have instead, if that's what you would prefer.


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Nov 10, 2004)

Kelleris - Yeah, e-mail me with your concerns and I shall discuss them with you.

Ruling on true seeing - While _true seeing_ is up, you see all things as they truly are, not the illusions.  So if someone has an illusionary disguise up, and you have permanent _true seeing_, you never know if they're disguised unless you ask them, do a _detect magic_, talk to someone else, or something of that manner.


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## Kelleris (Nov 10, 2004)

Cool.  Future concerns, or should I whip up an e-mail with the spoilered stuff?


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Nov 10, 2004)

Spoilered stuff too, as well as future concerns.


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## Kelleris (Nov 10, 2004)

E-mail e-mailed.  Hope you got it without any problems.


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Nov 10, 2004)

Kelleris, You've got mail!


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## perivas (Nov 10, 2004)

Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> Ruling on true seeing - While _true seeing_ is up, you see all things as they truly are, not the illusions.  So if someone has an illusionary disguise up, and you have permanent _true seeing_, you never know if they're disguised unless you ask them, do a _detect magic_, talk to someone else, or something of that manner.




Not intended to contradict your ruling, but from the rules, we were under the impression that it lets you see through illusions...at it is written in the rules.  



			
				SRD 3.5 said:
			
		

> True Seeing...confer on the subject the ability to see all things as they actually are. The subject sees through normal and magical darkness, notices secret doors hidden by magic, sees the exact locations of creatures or objects under blur or displacement effects, sees invisible creatures or objects normally, _*sees through illusions*_, and sees the true form of polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things.




But hey, your word goes.


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## Rikandur Azebol (Nov 10, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> *"Loyalty" Ring of Greater Elemental Resistance, Ironskin and Rapid Healing* (1,174,000 gp)
> 
> Okay, three effects on this, all relatively expensive moving stuff around
> 
> ...




It is 15/andamantite according to 3,5 rules. 

Im grateful for All time and effort You sacrificed for me.

*bow*

I will seriously consider all Your suggestions.   



			
				Wrahn said:
			
		

> *"Protectors" Braces of Defense +8* (64,000 gp)
> This provides an armor bonus which does not stack with your armor, Soooo, changing things a little…
> 
> Protector +5 Luck, +5 Sacred Bonus to AC (156,250)




Agreed. 



			
				Wrahn said:
			
		

> *"Devotion" Mithral Shield of Exceptional Arrow Deflection +2* (1,001,000 gp)
> You would be better off with this little piece of cheese
> 
> Mithral Shield of Exceptional Arrow Deflection +1 (811,100)
> ...




Roger.



			
				Wrahn said:
			
		

> *"Golden General" Glamered Warlord's Breastplate* (418,900 gp)
> 
> I would make this a +5 Glamered Mithral Breastplate with the same properties as the Warlord’s Breastplate (83,900gp)
> 
> ...




Okay. It's done.    



			
				Wrahn said:
			
		

> Equipment: (1,020,625 gp left)
> 
> Legendary Leaper grants no benefit in 3.5, (your jump distance is no longer limited by your height)
> 
> ...




I will correct all. And not, I wouldn't change feats ... They would work everywhere, even in places where magic don't work. And this flighty item ... Yes, it will be useful. Mix it with "Constitution" bonus and make it irremovable for double price. Yes, it should be nice. Or move HP bonus to Earth's Child Torc.


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## Kelleris (Nov 10, 2004)

Perivas, she _is_ ruling that true seeing sees through illusions.  It would be hard not to so rule.

In fact, it sees through them so well that you don't even know there's an illusion there, or that someone has altered their form.  You just see what's "really there", and not the illusion superimposed as a shadowy image or something.  That was the ruling Isida made.

So when Rahveon scoped me out earlier, he would have just seen Arion (which is what I wanted anyway).  Barring something else giving him the information (other than a Spot check, whose results are predetermined by _true seeing's_ effects), his true-sight augmented vision would not have told him that I had cast _alter self_ into a sirine.  He would have instead seen my true form, and just my true form, the entire time.


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## Wrahn (Nov 10, 2004)

Kelleris said:
			
		

> So when Rahveon scoped me out earlier, he would have just seen Arion (which is what I wanted anyway).  Barring something else giving him the information (other than a Spot check, whose results are predetermined by _true seeing's_ effects), his true-sight augmented vision would not have told him that I had cast _alter self_ into a sirine.  He would have instead seen my true form, and just my true form, the entire time.




Well, that isn't precisely true.  I had made the assumption from your previous statement that you were beyond 120 feet away from where we were.  Out of the range of true seeing.  When you got close enough, then true seeing kicked in.


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## Kangaxx (Nov 10, 2004)

Due to some unforseen real life developments, I'm going to have a lot less freetime in the near future.  Sadly, this means I'm going to be bailing on the handful of games I'm in which are just starting or newly started.  It's paticularly sad in this case considering how much time I've already devoted to Pilmer, but at least I'll be freeing up a spot for an alternate who has probably devoted just as much time.  

Isida, if you'd rather not have Pilmer just vanish in a puff of smoke, I could stick around awhile longer and we could orchestrate some sort of in game death or disapppearance.  Otherwise, consider him puffed.

Anyway, I hope you all have a good time without me, despite the party's sad lack of evil pcs.


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## Wrahn (Nov 10, 2004)

Kangaxx said:
			
		

> Due to some unforseen real life developments, I'm going to have a lot less freetime in the near future.  Sadly, this means I'm going to be bailing on the handful of games I'm in which are just starting or newly started.  It's paticularly sad in this case considering how much time I've already devoted to Pilmer, but at least I'll be freeing up a spot for an alternate who has probably devoted just as much time.
> 
> Isida, if you'd rather not have Pilmer just vanish in a puff of smoke, I could stick around awhile longer and we could orchestrate some sort of in game death or disapppearance.  Otherwise, consider him puffed.
> 
> Anyway, I hope you all have a good time without me, despite the party's sad lack of evil pcs.







Sorry to see you go man.  Hope everything is okay in RL.


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Nov 10, 2004)

Ok Kangaxx, I hope all goes well.  Best of luck!  

As for Pilmer, I did have something in mind for alternates.  Pilmer will end up going off on his own little quest to wreak some havoc, and the next alternate will come it.  Now, I just have to pick the appropriate person...


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## Ferrix (Nov 10, 2004)

Isida, I was wondering, I had asked this earlier in another form, would true creation + reality revision allow me to create life?  Or would that be the province of a 9th level power all on it's own?


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## Wrahn (Nov 10, 2004)

There is an epic spell called Origin of Species (I think) that allows one to create life, but since we aren't using such, I would venture that either that is along the correct lines or such magic lies solely in the hands of the gods.


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## Kelleris (Nov 10, 2004)

Sorry to see you go, Kangaxx.  I was looking forward to some energetic sniping between Arion and Pilmer.      Good luck with whatever life is currently assaulting you with.

I don't know if current players are allowed to try to sway the alternate-selection process, but I would like to vote for one of Hatter's characters.

You know I'm biased, but as a player I would love to play with either Tor or Lex!     And you can't tell me a slaadi doesn't make an acceptable replacement for an evil character...


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## Kelleris (Nov 10, 2004)

Oh, almost forgot.  Wrahn - it's hard to say what the range was since we don't have any kind of map.  However, beyond 120 feet I had my magical bonus to Disguise, and within 120 feet it was irrelevant.  So either way, I would think.


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## Ferrix (Nov 10, 2004)

Good luck with things Kangaxx, balancing all the things we get involved in can be quite a task sometimes.

I'd rather go for a more neutral or less megalomaniac/paranoid evil.


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## Zack2216 (Nov 10, 2004)

*crosses fingers*


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## Wrahn (Nov 10, 2004)

Rikandur Azebol said:
			
		

> Im grateful for All time and effort You sacrificed for me.
> 
> *bow*




My Pleasure, I am one of those sick people who enjoy this sort of thing.



> I will correct all. And not, I wouldn't change feats ... They would work everywhere, even in places where magic don't work. And this flighty item ... Yes, it will be useful. Mix it with "Constitution" bonus and make it irremovable for double price. Yes, it should be nice. Or move HP bonus to Earth's Child Torc.




You can actually jump farther than with the flight item, so I would ignore that.  I looked in the SRD and Legendary Leaper does give different effects there (5ft run as opposed to 20ft), so I was wrong on that.

Still, you should move the Ironskin ring effect away from your other expensive powers, I would put it on your cloak if you want to keep it.

*Loyalty* Greater Ring of Resistance 216,000

*Hearts Guardian* 15/adamantine DR, +5 Resistance to saves and enhancement Bonus to Natural Armor (512,500)

which is expensive, but not as bad as

*Loyalty* 15/Adamantine DR, Greater Elemental Resistance (724,000)

*Heart's Guardian* +5 Resistance bonus to saves and natural armor bonus (87,500)

If you follow the first one it is going to cost 261,500 off the million you had left, plus whatever other things you want to buy.

Remember, do your best to group big powers with smaller ones, you want to be multiplying the small ones by 1.5.

Other things I would consider is

Continuous 9th level Divine Favor 72,000 (+3 Luck Bonus to Hit and Damage)

Continuous 10th level Prescience, Offensive 40,000 (+5 Insight Bonus to Damage)

Continuous 10th Level Precognition, Offensive 40,000 (+4 Insight Bonus to Hit)

Since you don't have your hand slot taken I would go with something like:

*The Hand of Aeterna*  Continuous Divine Favor (9th), Continuous Prescience, Offensive (10th), Continuous Precognition, Offensive (10th) (192,000)

(+3 Luck Bonus to hit, +4 Insight Bonus to hit, +3 Luck Bonus to Damage, +5 Insight Bonus to damage)

These gauntlets are marked with the sign of Aeterna, a primodial semi-divine entity associated with time.  They allow those who are wearing them to glimpse a moment ahead of time and guide their weapon to strike true.


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## Kelleris (Nov 10, 2004)

Hmm...  Forgot you had your half-dragon wilder, Zack.  Well, I'm sure Isida already has someone she's leaning toward anyway.

As for actual OOC stuff - is everyone waiting for me to say something?  That last post of mine was intended to indicate that arion isn't willing to say what he know just yet.  So you should either continue with whatever you were doing, or follow up on the bits I dropped IC and ask Arion what he's thinking.

OneAboveAll - I noticed you took one level of contemplative for the Mysticism domain.  Odd choice for a fighter-oriented celestial, isn't it?  Oh, wait, it gives you your Cha bonus to saves.  You obviously needed that.  I mean just check out how your saves match up against everyone else's:

Rahveon: 
Fortitude - +48
Reflex - +41
Will - +46
Total - +135

Sigrún: 
Fortitude - +31
Reflex - +31
Will - +41
Total - +103

Pilmer: 
Fortitude - +30
Reflex - +39
Will - +42
Total - +111

Caira: 
Fortitude - +26
Reflex - +26
Will - +43
Total - +95

Arion: 
Fortitude - +28 (+30 vs. poison)
Reflex - +36 (+47 in melee)
Will - +24
Total - +88 (+99)

Su'ryuu
Fortitude - +24
Reflex - +22
Will - +24
Total - +70

Tsunami
Fortitude - +25
Reflex - +19
Will - +18
Total - +62

And you only have +49/+40/+54.  Because the game system really starts to show some flaws at epic levels, and it demands a little moderation and consideration for other characters and the DM when making your character.


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## Wrahn (Nov 10, 2004)

Kelleris-

You, of all people, should not talk about others taking cheesy prestige classes with no basis what so ever.  Mr. Duelist (3.0).

We are not having arguments about our characters, lest I unload on you, which believe me, I have not thus far.

(On a side note, Lest and Thus are great words, people should use them more)


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## Kelleris (Nov 10, 2004)

I took that PrC to get my AC up to a respectable level (i.e., 7 points below the celestial's).  If it would have given me an 80 AC, I would never have done it.  If the celestial had low saves to begin with, I could accept the cheese.  As it is, he now has a Will save *30 points higher than mine*.

These are different cases, I think.  Avoiding cheese altogether and showing restraint are two very different things.


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Nov 10, 2004)

*Waggles finger*

Tempers and tongues under control gentlemen...

No more sniping about saves, AC, BAB, or damage.  Legitimate discussions, yes, sniping and beating a dead horse, no.


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## Kelleris (Nov 10, 2004)

Ah.  I apologize.  Apparently when I think something is completely unreasonable and ask someone to show some deference for my enjoyment of the game, that automatically puts me in the wrong.  And my evidence up there clearly shows that any encounter that could force certain people to roll saving throws and hope for something higher than a 2 would also be a reasonable one for my character and those of other players to take part in.

Excuse me.


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## Ferrix (Nov 10, 2004)

One thing that I just popped into my head looking over the DMG for another character, the duelist is updated in the 3.5 DMG and the SRD, should we not be using the newer version that is included in the listed materials?


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## Wrahn (Nov 10, 2004)

Kelleris-

Isida asked you to stop, now stop.  If you want to argue with someone, do it via email.

(If you really want to argue with me, my email is Wrahnn(at)yahoo(dot)com)


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## Kelleris (Nov 10, 2004)

Here is my concern.  When I'm playing, I enjoy the excitement of being challenged, of having to roll a save against the nefarious attack in question.  It's a good deal of fun to roll the dice and hope for that 14 I need, or whatever.  It detracts from my enjoyment of the whole process to look over the table at another person yawning and rolling a 3 as she saves for the 487th time in a row.  This lessens my enjoyment of the game.

Likewise, I built Arion the way I did because I wanted to be sneaky, and stealthy, and to know that I can do all these cool things.  When I see someone across the table yawning and pointing at a cheap item on their character sheet, and I realize that the DM mollycoddling me is the only reason half the challenges we face don't involve similar circumstances (they sure aren't hard to make, it seems), I don't like it.  This too lessens my enjoyment of the game.

These are the reasons why the rules put so much effort (usually) into keeping character balanced with each other.  If this is not a legitimate concern, what would qualify?  Detracting from the enjoyment of others is the only reason why cheating even matters.  Otherwise, it's called a house rule and nobody minds.

Do I care that the melee-based characters will outshine me in melee, that magic-based characters have better casting than me, and about other, similar, things?  No, not really, though I would still like them to have to put forth a little effort to do so.  But I do care in the circumstances I've mentioned.  These palpably affect my ability to have fun here.

When we agreed to play a game _with other people_, we tacitly agreed not to get in the way of other people's enjoyment of that game unless absolutely necessary.

I hardly enjoy argument for argument's sake.  I wouldn't even care if it wasn't actually decreasing my interest in playing Arion.  In fact, since everything I say has been challenged ad nauseum, I'm really glad I can just ask the DM now.  But this is a concern I have that can't be dealt with just by Isida making a ruling, at least not without creating more problems than it solved.


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## Ferrix (Nov 10, 2004)

Can we move this to an e-mail between you and Wrahn, no need to put it out in public unless you want to get Isida involved, which is going to happen considering her warnings.


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## Kelleris (Nov 10, 2004)

I am not arguing with Wrahn.  I am stating a general principle that I think has been violated in each of the concerns I have raised in this thread.  Indeed, why would I be arguing with Wrahn when it was someone else's character that prompted me to raise this concern that I have?  I want to explain myself and why I think I have a legitimate concern, and ask everyone to respect my concern a bit more than I see them doing.


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## Wrahn (Nov 10, 2004)

Kelleris-

Solarian is a modified version of a character I built for a different campaign.

If you are concerned over the enjoyment of the game by other people, take this discussion to email.  You are decreasing the GMs enjoyment of the game.


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## Kelleris (Nov 10, 2004)

That would entail sending the exact same e-mail to everyone, which really defeats the purpose.  I am not arguing for anything specifically.  I am raising a concern I have with the game as a whole.  That means I either send it straight to Isida or post it here.


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## Wrahn (Nov 10, 2004)

Kelleris-

Isida is a storyteller.  My personal belief is she thinks rules get in the way, which is probably true.  Balance is not her concern either, because in a story not all the characters are balanced.

You are continuing to bring things up she has asked you not to, which she finds is getting in the way of the story (guessing here), you are only going to make her frustrated and not want to run the game.

You should take three deep breaths and walk away from the computer.  Come back later tonight or tomorrow, then, if you still feel you must, send me an email and we can discuss the pros and cons of it, Rules Lawyer to Rules Lawyer and leave the Storyteller out of it.

Okay?


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## Kelleris (Nov 10, 2004)

Right.  If that is in fact how she feels, then her DMing style and my play style are apparently at odds.  I _do_ care about balance, and I do like to think my character is as powerful, interesting, and useful as other characters.

If that is how Isida feels, and no compromise of some sort is forthcoming, then I have a pretty substantial problem.  Certain styles of play I find too grating to associate with without aggravation, good DM or no.  It's nothing personal, I just can't stand it.  Certain play styles just aren't compatible with my mine without some kind of compromise, that's all.  Different people have different tastes.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Nov 10, 2004)

Wow, you people post alot... Could you make plans for a new OOC character...  (That means soon, IC can go a little long for the good of the story but theirs really no need for an OOC. Of course talk to me Isida if you need more time.)

Thanks,
BS
PbP Mod


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## Mad Hatter (Nov 10, 2004)

I've been reading both the OOC and the IC because I am an alternate and it behooves me to know the situation, so here are my two cents.

Balance is a key necessity to any game; because why would a dm wish to tell a story where she either has to downgrade and let the pcs do whatever or she has to make it insanely difficult and kill off other pcs?

I think that you might be missing a key point to Kell's argument, which is the fact you guys have items that really don't go with your character and have no story behind it.  A 30th level character geared directly to a domain should  not be foiled by a mundane item.  What I think Kell is trying to say is that it is no fun when the dm has to go out of his/her way to give a pc something to do.

For example:  What if a pc was a black slaad.  The black slaad has phenomenal everything.  But not only that the have 4 tongues that in a full attack action is a ranged touch that deals on average 20d4.  After the initial damage, 11 rounds thereafter the target will take half that.  And the black slaad can do this every full attack action.  Not only that factor in millions of gp worth of stat boosters and items.  Many of you would be useless.  How would that make you feel?  

But let me put it to you another way.  It's the difference between Superman and Batman.  Superman is strong and when he gets to a building with no doors he simply throws his body into it.  He's that strong.  Superman is only moderately smart.  And now let's discuss Batman.  He has skills.  The man is a ninja, rich, and super smart.  But Superman can trump Batman in the fact that he's strong and damned near invicnible.  The only reason Batman would win is because located in his utility belt is enough kryptonite to kill Superman.  How is it reasonable to equate Superman to Batman?  Superman hits thing and make them break.  Batman is interesting, he has depth.  He uses his super smarts, his gadget, and his skill of martial arts.  He isn't a one trick pony. 

And Wrahn, if didn't matter about balance, how's about you play a 10th level character?  How's about you give Kell an inch or a compromise?  Because then that would truly show that balance isn't a necessity.  What is the point of playing if you are significantly weaker than any other character because they have equipped one or two items that trumps 30 levels of build?  Nothing bypasses mind blank or true seeing.  If balance isn't an issue, then drop those items.  The very fact that you are debating Kell implicitly implies that it does matter.  Kell isn't asking for you to change the entire character; he just wants a compromise.  A moderation.  So how's about we discuss some fair compromises?


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## Wrahn (Nov 10, 2004)

Kelleris-

A good story, in my opinion, is more important than balance, but I do believe balance is important.  I think that you are being myopic (another good word that should be used more) about this, but I refuse to devolve into arguing about it after Isida asked us to stop.

But if you feel that strongly about, then perhaps the person you need to talk to is Isida.


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## Wrahn (Nov 10, 2004)

Mad Hatter-

The point isn't that he is right or wrong.  I refuse to argue it, because Isida asked us not to.  Be considerate of others.

And this is the last I am going to post on the subject, because it is getting repetetive.  If you want to talk to someone about it, talk to me.


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## Wrahn (Nov 10, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Wow, you people post alot... Could you make plans for a new OOC character...  (That means soon, IC can go a little long for the good of the story but theirs really no need for an OOC. Of course talk to me Isida if you need more time.)




Just trying to catch up to you


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## Kelleris (Nov 11, 2004)

Well then.  If Isida doesn't mind, I have a proposal.

Instead of me proposing something and other people arguing vigorously against it, with thinly-veiled biases oozing out from both sides, why don't we just talk it over like reasonable people?

I'll go first, in fact.  Check out my character sheet and see if there's anything that bugs you.  I don't mean any kind of legal quarrel.  Maybe you think _improvisation_ is too powerful, or maybe you think that my additional bardic music abilities stretch the bounds of believability too much.  Whatever.  Anything that's nagging you when you interact with my character.

Post your concerns, and I'll see what kind of compromise position I can come up with.  When we can get something we can all agree on (shouldn't be too hard), I won't really have any more reason for starting these surly discussions.


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## Ferrix (Nov 11, 2004)

Does anyone in this discussion mind if I make a specific thread for it, so we don't bother Isida too much?


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Nov 11, 2004)

Specific thread would be great.  

Kelleris, please e-mail me with point-by-point concerns about your character.


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## Ferrix (Nov 11, 2004)

Any suggestions where I should put it? D&D Rules? Talking the Talk?


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Nov 11, 2004)

D&D rules I believe would be appropriate.


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## Kelleris (Nov 11, 2004)

Mind?  I think that would be great!    

I'd put it in Talking the Talk.  We're all pretty rules-clean, I think.  This is more about making everyone's characters mutually acceptable, and getting rid of any leftover bad taste in our mouths regarding the previous piecemeal sniping and arguing (which, really, was getting us nowhere).

Plus, people tend to stay out of Talking the Talk threads when they aren't recruiting (or so I think).  If we do a D&D Rules thread, we might attract a peanut gallery when the only important thing is that the players and the DM all come out of it reasonably satisfied.


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## Ferrix (Nov 11, 2004)

It seemed to belong in the talking the talk thread as a Player discussion thread.

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1849596


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## Brother Shatterstone (Nov 11, 2004)

Ferrix said:
			
		

> It seemed to belong in the talking the talk thread as a Player discussion thread.




I assume this thread replaces this one also?

Thanks,
BS PbP Mod


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## Ferrix (Nov 11, 2004)

Actually, it was for the discussion going on involving the players, I didn't know where exactly to put it and it's isn't the OOC thread for the game itself.  But specifically for the discussion of issues that have continually been cropping up in this thread that should find a better place.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Nov 11, 2004)

Ferrix, okay...  and to repeat myself, "You people post alot."

and Wrahn I'm scared now.


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## Kelleris (Nov 11, 2004)

Yes.  We are ornery and opinionated.


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## Rikandur Azebol (Nov 11, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> My Pleasure, I am one of those sick people who enjoy this sort of thing.
> 
> You can actually jump farther than with the flight item, so I would ignore that.  I looked in the SRD and Legendary Leaper does give different effects there (5ft run as opposed to 20ft), so I was wrong on that.




This feat was taken for this sole purpouse ! To jump farther ... This jumping 
freakiness was devolped by me intentionally. While one attack on round might
let Tsunami to weaken opponent, surviwe AOO, and make distance between her and foe ... I think that she is balanced enough to be effective combatant
against any foe of CR 30. Simply, I have to use like Maugs alvays do ... EVERY avaible advantage. Especially in difficult terrain. Guess why she's not a paladin ?   



			
				Wrahn said:
			
		

> Still, you should move the Ironskin ring effect away from your other expensive powers, I would put it on your cloak if you want to keep it.
> 
> If you follow the first one it is going to cost 261,500 off the million you had left, plus whatever other things you want to buy.
> 
> ...




I'm bowing to Your knowledge ... now I have a lot of spare gold to waste ! 
Where is my "Stronghold Builder" book ? If Isida would allow ... I'm going to "save" a piece of my palace.


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Nov 11, 2004)

Ummm.... nope.  No pieces of palaces.  Sorry Rikandur.


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## Wrahn (Nov 11, 2004)

I wanted to say I changed my character.  When I was looking over character I noticed I had too much unspent money (Last modification of my character before the game started I forgot to change the money I had unspent, because I spent it.)

So I added it up and discovered I was 7,000 over.  So I deleted the +10 to spot an item I had.

On a different note:

When Rahveon reached the 10th level of Dragon Disciple he took on the Half Dragon Template, most of the bonuses for which he had already gathered over the previous levels.

Why this is important is the half dragon template does weird things to racial hit dice and I am not sure it is retroactive.  It increases Racial Hit Dice by one step (so Rahveons Monstrous Humanoid become d10s or 4 more hit points) and increases the number of skill points granted by those hit dice to 6 (24 more skill points all of which are going to be cross class skills as Elephant man race only gives Spot and Listen which are already maxed).  There is also the issue of wings which on a large creature provide x2 land movement as opposed to the dragon disciple wings which give land movement.  (see what happens when I think too much...)

Edit: Looked like I was saying I had already made these changes, I am asking if I should.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Nov 11, 2004)

...

New OCC thread:

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=106893 

thread locked.

Thanks,
Your PbP mod.


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