# Lovecraft Country (Spoilers for Episode 1)



## BookTenTiger (Aug 17, 2020)

Did anyone else watch this last night?

I thought it was fantastic! I'm a big fan of the book, and I think so far it's an amazing interpretation.

SPOILERS BELOW






The scene in the diner reminded me that systems of oppression and racism are, in their nature, very Lovecraftian. Lovecraft himself was a raging racist, but he really captured this sense of huge, ungraspable malicious forces at work that invade mundane aspects of life. I mean, what greater conspiracy is there than an actual government created laws that oppress and incentivise violence towards a group of people?

I thought the characters were all wonderfully realized and brought to life. The characters were, in my opinion, one of the stronger parts of the book, and even in this first episode they did a lot of building up of the three current main characters, as well as hints of depths of the current side characters (Hyppolyta  at the telescope, for example).

Now one of the biggest changes from the book was the monster in the woods.

I remember in the book the monster was never fully described (very appropriate for a Lovecraft monster), but it was either invisible or a part of the woods itself.

In this episode, the monsters were multi-eyed vampiric predators. They looked incredible, and I loved their gibbering.

The monster attack really ratcheted up the mistrust between the main characters and the sheriff's posse. I liked that there was no point of all the characters suddenly getting along because of a common enemy. The racist authority figures stayed racist and fearful as they lost control of the situation.

My only critique of the episode was the very last scene. The characters suddenly walk from the cabin through a covered bridge to Ardham, and we know that because there's a big Chiron on the screen. But I was unsure if the characters knew they were in Ardham, and why they felt compelled to go to the front door of this mansion. I mean, having read the book I understand, but as a viewer I would have liked more clarity on what the characters knew at that point.

Anyways, fantastic episode, fantastic show, can't wait to see what happens next.

What did you all think?


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## Umbran (Aug 17, 2020)

So, I haven't watched it yet.  And, thanks to your warning, I managed to not read the spoilers.

If you intend a spoilerific discussion, that's totally fine - but please put it in the title of the thread.


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## BookTenTiger (Aug 17, 2020)

Umbran said:


> So, I haven't watched it yet.  And, thanks to your warning, I managed to not read the spoilers.
> 
> If you intend a spoilerific discussion, that's totally fine - but please put it in the title of the thread.




Done and done! Have a blast with the show!


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## Umbran (Aug 17, 2020)

Yes, likely to be watching it tonight (we have an online group that gathers on Sunday, so we didn't see it yet).


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## Dannyalcatraz (Aug 17, 2020)

I don’t have HBO, sooo...

Tangentially, I noticed that Raphael Saadiq is one of the show’s music writers, so that’s a plus!


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## Zaukrie (Aug 17, 2020)

I used to have HBO, but, then, they and ROKU apparently can't come to an agreement.......It is possible I can watch it on the Xfinity app on the Roku, I haven't tried yet....and I'm not watching tv on my computer these days. But, as soon as I do, I'll be watching this!


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## Dannyalcatraz (Aug 17, 2020)

Side note: given the show’s plotline and all the people involved in its production, it is highly likely that this series will avoid the common trope that no minority characters will see the final reel.

(OTOH, it _is _Lovecraftian horror, so no guarantees...  )


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## BookTenTiger (Aug 18, 2020)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Side note: given the show’s plotline and all the people involved in its production, it is highly likely that this series will avoid the common trope that no minority characters will see the final reel.
> 
> (OTOH, it _is _Lovecraftian horror, so no guarantees...  )




Interesting story:

The author of the book is also a TV writer, and originally wanted to produce this as a show. It just came out better as a novel (for him, anyways). The author is a white man, and did a lot of research and talked with a lot of people of color when writing his book. I think he did his due diligence in the book, and was able to respectfully write about people he doesn't share a racial identity with.

However, I think it's immediately clear in the show that they have creators of color. I can't quite put my finger on it, but there's just something much more authentic about the show so far.


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## Umbran (Aug 18, 2020)

Zaukrie said:


> I used to have HBO, but, then, they and ROKU apparently can't come to an agreement




So, this is where HBO is confusing.  There used to be three different services.  Now, there's two.  There's HBO, and HBO Max.  There's no agreement for HBO Max, that has twice the content.  But you can get Lovecraft Country on just the HBO app.  I know, because I watched it on my Roku HBO app tonight...


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## Zaukrie (Aug 18, 2020)

Umbran said:


> So, this is where HBO is confusing.  There used to be three different services.  Now, there's two.  There's HBO, and HBO Max.  There's no agreement for HBO Max, that has twice the content.  But you can get Lovecraft Country on just the HBO app.  I know, because I watched it on my Roku HBO app tonight...



Interesting.... I'll see if I can get that working! Thanks.


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## carrot (Aug 18, 2020)

Yeah - that was a really interesting show. It certainly felt authentic - I must admit I hadn't appreciated the levels of racism prevalent in the Southern States, so that was definitely an eye opener. I agree - the monsters were fantastic - you could feel the sanity checks failing 
I struggled to follow a lot of the dialogue though  - it was partly cos it was very quiet and partially the accents (normally quite good with them). Still that was a minor quibble really. All in all I'm looking forward to the next one.


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## Campbell (Aug 18, 2020)

@carrot 

The first episode starts in Chicago and ends in Ardham, Massachusetts.


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## carrot (Aug 18, 2020)

Campbell said:


> @carrot
> 
> The first episode starts in Chicago and ends in Ardham, Massachusetts.



Oops - yes.  
My American geography is apparently pretty poor then!


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## BookTenTiger (Aug 18, 2020)

carrot said:


> Yeah - that was a really interesting show. It certainly felt authentic - I must admit I hadn't appreciated the levels of racism prevalent in the Southern States, so that was definitely an eye opener. I agree - the monsters were fantastic - you could feel the sanity checks failing
> I struggled to follow a lot of the dialogue though  - it was partly cos it was very quiet and partially the accents (normally quite good with them). Still that was a minor quibble really. All in all I'm looking forward to the next one.




We noticed that the dialogue was difficult to follow too! We thought it was some kind of levels on our projector.


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## Umbran (Aug 18, 2020)

BookTenTiger said:


> We noticed that the dialogue was difficult to follow too! We thought it was some kind of levels on our projector.




There are two things going on, I think.  One is that there was a bit of an audio balance problem between the action scenes and dialog - if your volume is set well for the action scenes, dialog was a little quiet (at least for me, who has fans on for cooling in the summertime)

Another is that they seem to be using period appropriate language and accent for African Americans of the time and region, which has a bit of a drawl many of us are perhaps not used to, making it a bit harder to follow.


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## Ralif Redhammer (Aug 19, 2020)

Just finished watching the first episode last night and it was a great start. I've not read the book yet, but will likely do so. I've enjoyed other books that have addressed Lovecraft's virulent hatreds, like Ballad of Black Tom and Winter Tide.

I dug all the little pulp references, like Tic reading A Princess of Mars, too.


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## Vael (Aug 20, 2020)

First episode grabbed me, so I'm in for the rest of the season.


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## Morrus (Aug 20, 2020)

I watched it and had the same problems others had -- the audio mixing made it really hard to hear what people were saying. I thought it was my TV, but from this thread, I guess not.


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## Umbran (Aug 24, 2020)

I didn't have any audio problems in the second episode.


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## BookTenTiger (Aug 24, 2020)

Umbran said:


> I didn't have any audio problems in the second episode.




We are about to watch it! I'll change the thread title when I post about it.


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## Imaculata (Aug 24, 2020)

I just watched the first episode, and I have mixed feelings about it. I love the characters and the setting (the casting is on point), and I love the portrayal of the time period and segregation. The special effects are also really good.

However, I don't feel they've succeeded at nailing the Lovecraftian vibe or suspense. Perhaps they are just showing too much of the monsters, but I feel it is also because of the way it was directed. It is just not very suspenseful.

I have not read the book (I wasn't even aware this was based on a book), but I do like the idea of basically cleansing the racist legacy of Lovecraft's work, by making this a story about black characters dealing with racism and segregation in a Lovecraftian setting.


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## Rabulias (Aug 25, 2020)

Well, that escalated quickly. I am interested to see where they go from the end of episode 2.

And the award for understated line of the year goes to "Don't eat that."


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## cbwjm (Aug 25, 2020)

Rabulias said:


> Well, that escalated quickly. I am interested to see where they go from the end of episode 2.
> 
> And the award for understated line of the year goes to "Don't eat that."



I'm definitely curious about what's going to happen next, felt like I was watching a mini series and this was part 2 or 2.

You're right, it was a great line.


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## CapnZapp (Aug 26, 2020)

I see what they were trying to accomplish in EP 2, but also think they failed.

In EP 1 the good outweighed the bad, but EP 2 was just a rushed heap of WTF...


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## CapnZapp (Aug 26, 2020)

Imaculata said:


> However, I don't feel they've succeeded at nailing the Lovecraftian vibe or suspense. Perhaps they are just showing too much of the monsters, but I feel it is also because of the way it was directed. It is just not very suspenseful.



I agree, but I don't think they're even trying for the Lovecraftian vibe.

The monsters are so in-your-face and all-action and splatter-gore I think those sequences are deliberately a subversion of how "wonderfully" monster encounters play out in classic Lovecraft: understated, after-the-fact, dreamy, etc. After all, the entire show is a naughty word You to ye olde H.P. of sorts...

But I haven't read the book either, so what do I know.


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## Umbran (Aug 26, 2020)

CapnZapp said:


> the entire show is a **** You to ye olde H.P. of sorts...




*Mod Note:*

Dude.  Language.  Keep it clean, please.


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## payn (Aug 26, 2020)

I actually liked the second episode better than the first. Had a very Get Out meets lovecraft vibe to it. 

I can see why some folks have an issue with it. This version is not subtle at all. Not capturing the right horror suspense feel, more like a weird mystery suspense story.


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## Umbran (Aug 26, 2020)

payn said:


> I can see why some folks have an issue with it. This version is not subtle at all.




1) Perhaps Lovecraft's subtlety is overstated.

2) They are doing a mass-market show. They must establish the reality of these horrors for the story to make sense.

3) I think there's an intentional and meaningful analogy there.  Neither horror nor racism is subtle when it is targeted directly at you.  There is no material difference between the oppressiveness of walking through a malign eldritch gothic house and down a city street filled with folks who may want to lynch you, or between the many-eyed beast chasing you through the forest, and a pickup tuck full of hicks with guns who want to shoot you for being the wrong color.  People think Lovecraft's horror and his racism are subtle because they are reading both from the safety of their comfortable armchair.

Basically - racism _is a horror_ just as much as Great Old Ones are.  The subtlety is an illusion of perspective.


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## Imaculata (Aug 26, 2020)

Umbran said:


> 1) Perhaps Lovecraft's subtlety is overstated.




In regards to the horror element, I respectfully disagree. Lovecraft rarely discribed the monsters in his stories in great detail, leaving much to the imagination, and creating a strange other worldly atmosphere around his mythos. That is what the show (judging by the first episode) is lacking.

Subverting Lovecraft is great. But doing a worse job than him at the horror is not. Lovecraft is not a briljant horror writer by any stretch of the imagination, but he sure did horror a lot better than this show has done so far.



Umbran said:


> Basically - racism _is a horror_ just as much as Great Old Ones are.  The subtlety is an illusion of perspective.




There are many ways to do horror. Racism as horror does not need to be subtle. But Lovecraftian monsters benefit from a bit of mystery and suspense. Just throwing blood at the screen does not have the same effect.


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## Umbran (Aug 26, 2020)

Imaculata said:


> Lovecraft rarely discribed the monsters in his stories in great detail




So, he was vague.  I don't think that equates to subtle.

I will be honest.  I find Lovecraft's prose... boring.  He was not subtle.  He merely leaves out detail, leaving a dry result that lacks tension from an inability to set the mood.  And no, that's not the gripe of a modern reader with a taste for modern pacing.  I liked reading the Silmarillion. This is more noting that Lovecraft's general ideas were more powerful than his prose... by a long shot, and those ideas aren't really most powerful within his own writings, but in the hands of others.



> But doing a worse job than him at the horror is not. Lovecraft is not a briljant horror writer by any stretch of the imagination, but he sure did horror a lot better than this show has done so far.




I will then also respectfully disagree - there are many things that classify as horror, and this is doing a solid job of some of them - maybe just not the ones you want.  



> There are many ways to do horror. Racism as horror does not need to be subtle. But Lovecraftian monsters benefit from a bit of mystery and suspense. Just throwing blood at the screen does not have the same effect.




I think that, if you are in a state of empathy for the characters, there's plenty of suspense in the show.


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## Snarf Zagyg (Aug 26, 2020)

payn said:


> I actually liked the second episode better than the first. Had a very Get Out meets lovecraft vibe to it.
> 
> I can see why some folks have an issue with it. This version is not subtle at all. Not capturing the right horror suspense feel, more like a weird mystery suspense story.




I think that the issue is that if you go into this expecting Lovecraft, you will be disappointed.

That is not what this is. And those who say that there are parallel arguments regarding Lovecraft and the themes in this; eh, no. 

Instead, it is an excellent series (so far, have only watched two shows). But is not Lovecraft; far from it. Instead, it does something very different. With very little subtlety (IMO), it transmogrifies the horror; from the unseen and unknowable, to the very real and palpable Jim Crow racism. 

The terror felt by the protagonists of the story is not some concern about nebulous (or later, less abstract) concern about fantasy monsters that come when the sun sets; it is the very real concern of making sure that they are in a safe place because they are not welcome in many areas when the sun goes down. The cleverness of the nerds in finding a book and understanding the occult practices is not undone by learning of the ancient horrors and madness, but by the prosaic existence of racism (sure, you might be a descendant, but whatever).

Etc. It's not Lovecraft. But it is very good.


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## payn (Aug 26, 2020)

Umbran said:


> 1) Perhaps Lovecraft's subtlety is overstated.



Maybe, im certainly no expert on Lovecraft's work. As mentioned by another poster, perhaps vague would have been a better description for the comparison? All I know is that this show feels different than the lovecraft stories I have read. LC is bigger in scope, with a much more encompassing narrative. I am not knocking it for that, as I do really enjoy the show, just noticing the difference. 



Umbran said:


> 2) They are doing a mass-market show. They must establish the reality of these horrors for the story to make sense.



Im not convinced of that. The left overs was a fabulous series on HBO with a supernatural event that is basically unexplained through the entire series. The fact that it happened and it cant be explained adds to the mystery which helps explain the character's actions. They dont know, and as viewer, neither do we. It was incredibly compelling too. Its also textbook of The Twilight Zone and The Outer Limits, albeit in episodic short story form.



Umbran said:


> Basically - racism _is a horror_ just as much as Great Old Ones are.  The subtlety is an illusion of perspective.



Is it? Racism and the Great Old Ones are both horrors that can be presented with or without nuance. This even occurs in LC. From racism, there is a sundown chase scene, but also a cultist display of racial supremacy. Thousand eye monsters chase down the main characters, but they are also subjected to strange illusions that seem all too real to them. The former is not subtle, but the latter is. 


Umbran said:


> 3) I think there's an intentional and meaningful analogy there. Neither horror nor racism is subtle when it is targeted directly at you. There is no material difference between the oppressiveness of walking through a malign eldritch gothic house and down a city street filled with folks who may want to lynch you, or between the many-eyed beast chasing you through the forest, and a pickup tuck full of hicks with guns who want to shoot you for being the wrong color. People think Lovecraft's horror and his racism are subtle because they are reading both from the safety of their comfortable armchair.



I think you make a great point and I certainly agree with the comparison of the horror of racism to that of eldritch mythos. In order to do this, the characters of LC must live through numerous events that likely wouldnt have worked out in Lovecraft fiction. It had to be like this to make the analogy work. However, that feels distinctly different than Lovecraft fiction. Thats ok, because this isnt a faithful adaption of Lovecraft's work, but a re-interpretation with added perspectives. The difference can be understood and appreciated without being dismissed as confusion, IMO.


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## CapnZapp (Aug 27, 2020)

Umbran said:


> 1) Perhaps Lovecraft's subtlety is overstated.
> 
> 2) They are doing a mass-market show. They must establish the reality of these horrors for the story to make sense.
> 
> ...



Yes, we seem to agree.

It's still understandable that people hearing "Lovecraft something?" expect a more... subdued... approach.

Having a horrific encounter be told either in second hand, or by the now-insane protagonist, who uses HPs trademark flowery language to say very little using very many words.

After all, Lovecraft himself got his fame and recognition very much because he didn't go Koontz or King splattery on us.

I'm not disagreeing with anything except your notion in 2) they must do it in a certain way. The in-your-face approach is very much a choice. It is a tool to make it more clear this isn't your granddaddy's Lovecraft.

But it would be an oversimplification to equate Lovecrafts subtlety with his racism. That this show is using both should not be conflated. Yes, HP played down the horrors just like he "played down" (to put it mildly) racism. No, being subtle isn't racist.

All I'm saying is that a) You could very likely tell a non-racist story in a true Lovecraftian manner and b) It would likely not get anywhere as much attention. I would then leave it to the reader to make conclusions...


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## CapnZapp (Aug 27, 2020)

Umbran said:


> I will be honest. I find Lovecraft's prose... boring. He was not subtle. He merely leaves out detail, leaving a dry result that lacks tension from an inability to set the mood.



That is okay. You don't need to like him (=his writings, I mean). You only need to display an understanding of what has made him so massively popular.

I mean we can both see why lots of Lovecraft fans might be disappointed by the action-gore-fest, right? It cuts to the core of what defines Lovecraft and sets him apart from... pretty much everybody else (broadly speaking).

What I am curious to know is if this... stylistic choice... is present in the Ruff novel as well?


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## CapnZapp (Aug 27, 2020)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> I think that the issue is that if you go into this expecting Lovecraft, you will be disappointed.
> 
> That is not what this is. And those who say that there are parallel arguments regarding Lovecraft and the themes in this; eh, no.
> 
> ...



Exactly.

Except of course, if it didn't use Lovecraft's names or locations, it would garner a heck of a lot less attention and controversy.

By the way, I liked EP 2 a lot less than EP 1. I see what they were trying to say, I just felt it was disjointed and extremely rushed, with a lot of WTF moments for no good reason.

I don't need the story to go for Lovecraftian atmosphere; but I need it to go for some kind of mood other than a Saturday morning cartoon, characters essentially yelling and slamming doors.

Sure the story is small, but maybe it needed a third episode...


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## Imaculata (Aug 27, 2020)

I think if you're going to tack the Lovecraft name onto a tv show, it had better be Lovecraftian. Otherwise you're simply going to disappoint a whole lot of people who were waiting for something different from standard horror affair.


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## Snarf Zagyg (Aug 27, 2020)

Imaculata said:


> I think if you're going to tack the Lovecraft name onto a tv show, it had better be Lovecraftian. Otherwise you're simply going to disappoint a whole lot of people who were waiting for something different from standard horror affair.




So, in fairness, I'm a big fan of Lovecraft, and also a big fan of the show (so far- only two episodes in). I haven't read the book the series is based on.

But I think of it kind of like, well, the movie Naked Lunch. If you've ever read the book Naked Lunch, you know that it's unfilmable. But if you've seen the film, you know that it somehow captures the essence of the book in many ways (and of other Burroughs stories), while also not being the book at all. It's different.

I tend to view this in a similar way. It's most definitely not cosmic horror! But so far, it's playing on, and with, those tropes. At every turn, the scariest things are often not the unknowable madness of infinities beyond, but the very knowable racism of the time.

It's a constant subversion of the tropes as to what is monstrous. 

Personally, I really like it; it plays against the typical Lovecraft. Then again, I've always felt that "Lovecraft" is really hard to bring to the screen (Annihilation, The Thing, and Event Horizon all being "Lovecraftian" without being of the mythos).


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## CapnZapp (Aug 27, 2020)

Imaculata said:


> I think if you're going to tack the Lovecraft name onto a tv show, it had better be Lovecraftian. Otherwise you're simply going to disappoint a whole lot of people who were waiting for something different from standard horror affair.



Tacking the name onto his novel might be just why it became successful enough to make the show.

So, not really.


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## Snarf Zagyg (Aug 27, 2020)

CapnZapp said:


> Tacking the name onto his novel might be just why it became successful enough to make the show.




No, that's not it at all.

People can have different opinions about the relevance of H.P. Lovecraft's racism to his work, but you can't deny his virulent racism. I don't think that making a book that is using themes of alienation and Lovecraftian horror to explore _race relations_ in the context of _nerd culture _is exactly "pulling a fast one."


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## Imaculata (Aug 28, 2020)

Well, I watched the second episode. Love the cast and the characters, nice upbeat beginning, and great effects at the end. Plus they use a lot of good music. However, the episode was very incoherent, and the show doesn't seem to know how to craft a compelling mystery or build suspense. It's a shame really.

I really wished the show would actually use Lovecraft's mythos and world building, instead of hijacking his name only. Yeah, there are monsters and there is some occult stuff, but it is really poorly fleshed out it seems.


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## CapnZapp (Aug 28, 2020)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> No, that's not it at all.
> 
> People can have different opinions about the relevance of H.P. Lovecraft's racism to his work, but you can't deny his virulent racism. I don't think that making a book that is using themes of alienation and Lovecraftian horror to explore _race relations_ in the context of _nerd culture _is exactly "pulling a fast one."



Absolutely.

I was exhibiting the train of thought that goes
"sees Lovecraft something" ->
-> expects "cosmic horror of the unknown more than gore or other elements of shock"[1] ->
-> "becomes disappointed by show"

...and _nothing more_.


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## CapnZapp (Oct 7, 2020)

Topsy & Bopsy for the win! 

I'm eagerly awaiting animated GIFs of their wicked dance moves, but here's a still in the meanwhile.


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## Sabathius42 (Oct 7, 2020)

My unsolicited and unprofessional opinions on the show so far...

1. I kind of want to see a movie having the same feel of the first 5 minutes.

2. The shift from general storytelling to focusing entire episodes on one character felt jarring.

3. I feel that the Watchmen show covered similar themes in a tighter and better told story.

4. Overall its an interesting and original bit of story, but if asked about recommending an actual Lovecraft work I would tell someone that the show shares little to no style in common with those works.


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## CapnZapp (Oct 8, 2020)

Yes, it's not Lovecraftian horror, full stop. That's just a disappointment I had to overcome to enjoy this wild ride.

_Lovecraftian horror is a subgenre of horror fiction that emphasizes the cosmic horror of the unknown (or unknowable) more than gore or other elements of shock._​Wikipedia definition of "Lovecraftian horror"

This show is _anything but_ Lovecraftian! It is shocking, full of gore, and more interested in exploring America's racist past (it is actually very enlightening in that respect!) than fetishizing the sad fates of white men and their demons. (And I love the fetishization of sad fates of white men and their demons, and HP's other stories)

Don't get me wrong, it still features themes and stories from Lovecraft. It just doesn't present them in a "lovecraftian" way.

I must say, I am amazed at this show's capacity for amazing me. I thought I had seen everything, and that I was fairly knowledgeable in horror tropes. But this show is something else. Each and every episode has featured at least one scene where my reaction could only be "WTF?!".

And that's meant as high praise


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## moriantumr (Oct 9, 2020)

I would submit that the racism plays the role of lovecraftian horror. The fact that racism can strike whenever and for whatever reason makes it even more implacable and terrifying than any eldritch horror.


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## Imaculata (Oct 9, 2020)

I think it would be more accurate to say that the racism replaces Lovecraftian horror, not that it plays the role of it.


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## Sabathius42 (Oct 9, 2020)

The horror of Lovecraftian horror is that everything on Earth is so inconsequential it doesn't even register on the evils radar.  There is no more hate between Cthulhu and humanity as there is humanity towards plankton because one isn't capable of affecting the other in any substantial way.

Its a different scale than man's inhumanity to man, which manifests personally.


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## Umbran (Oct 9, 2020)

Imaculata said:


> I think it would be more accurate to say that the racism replaces Lovecraftian horror, not that it plays the role of it.




I think you're incorrect.
Much of the point of the work is that looming dread of forces you cannot control is the same, whether it is a shoggoth breathing on the back of your neck, or a white supremacist law enforcement officer.  



Sabathius42 said:


> The horror of Lovecraftian horror is that everything on Earth is so inconsequential it doesn't even register on the evils radar.




Absolute and singular categorizations get in the way of understanding.  There is not _one single_ "the horror" of Lovecraft.  He employed many things which are horrifying.

The cosmic forces in Lovecraft do not view humans as consequential, or even as "people".  Their efforts are irrelevant, and impersonally overlooked.  The universe of Lovecraft is cold, uncaring or generally malign, holding no comfort for humans.  

Now, consider the characters operating in a racist system - _the system_ is cold, uncaring and malign, and holds no comfort for them.  It does not recognize the characters _as people_.  The overall racist system the characters operate under might as well be Azathoth.

However, the various minions on Earth that serve these impersonal forces have their own motivations, and may very well delight in your pain.

I think if you review some of the various themes of Lovecraft's work, you'll find many of them present in the show.



Sabathius42 said:


> Its a different scale than man's inhumanity to man, which manifests personally.




This show, in part, speaks to how _systemic and pervasive_ racism goes beyond the personal hatred of one person for another.  Yes, sure, that individual man hates you, and is using the opportunity to vent his anger on you and show his or her personal power over you.  But, when racism is so pervasive... that one person who has hatred ceases to be the real issue - if you killed that one racist... there's basically a limitless supply of others, and they are everywhere and you cannot really run from them.  Those individuals are merely servants of the overall malign force.

In a way, it is our privilege that leaves us only thinking of this in personal terms.  We can comprehend one person hating another.  We cannot easily wrap our mind around _the entirety of society_ being malign to us.  Much as a Lovecraft character cannot wrap their mind around Shub-Niggurath.

In Lovecraft, the actual elder god, the cosmic horror, is not typically personally witnessed by mortals.  It is not _physically present_ for the characters to shoot at, or stick a sword into.  It is a motivator that is elsewhere, in some space with geometry you cannot reasonably interact with. It might as well not actually have a physical form.  So, how is "racism" not much the same as "Azathoth"? It is not a tangible object, but it is a motivator for events that unfold...


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## moriantumr (Oct 9, 2020)

I appreciate the juxtaposition of racism and horror inviting those who have not experienced racism personally to realize that it is more terrifying than shoggoths or ritual sacrifice because it is always there. No matter what choices you make, how well you play the game, or even how skilled you become, racism does not care and will hound you until the end. 
I feel that is exactly how lovecraftian RPGs are designed. You may succeed at this one thing and push back the inevitable, but you will eventually succumb to madness or die. Usually this is reserved for people in specific locales or those aware of it and who choose to fight/investigate. Racism is everywhere and harms you even if you never realize it is there.


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## CapnZapp (Oct 9, 2020)

Umbran said:


> looming dread of forces you cannot control



Except there's nothing "looming" at all in this show. Everybody is talking about magic and monsters in unambiguous, overt ways.

Lovecraft is perhaps the least unambiguous and overt writer in existence (maybe with the exception of abstract poetry  ). Reading Lovecraft is all about mood, foreshadowing, mounting sense of dread, and trying to avoid pinning things down to explicit and concrete descriptions.

This show is definitely connected to the Lovecraft Mythos in some ways, but it is clearly different in other, key, aspects.


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## moriantumr (Oct 9, 2020)

Is fear of the police, not knowing where you can safely stop to eat or relieve yourself, or having to constantly make choices based on how others may perceive or misconstrue your actions not looming or dreadful enough? 
The fact that the “horror” elements are openly discussed shows that they are less dreadful than other forces in play.


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## Sabathius42 (Oct 9, 2020)

moriantumr said:


> Is fear of the police, not knowing where you can safely stop to eat or relieve yourself, or having to constantly make choices based on how others may perceive or misconstrue your actions not looming or dreadful enough?
> The fact that the “horror” elements are openly discussed shows that they are less dreadful than other forces in play.



I'll try to phrase my thoughts on the differences in another way to maybe illustrate it better.

When discussing issues of racism, there is always a hope that one day things are going to get better.  The world of 2020 is better than the world of 1950 in terms of equality for most minority groups.  There is no reason to believe that over a longer span of time things will improve even more.  The characters in the show that are fearful of racism still have some "safe spaces" that they can return to and feel protected.

When discussing issues of lovecraftian horror, there is literally no hope of things getting better.  Either you are blissfully ignorant of the fact that you mean nothing OR you learn that you mean nothing and have to live with the knowledge.  You could be hiding in the most secure underground bunker guarded by a million trained martial artists and it just doesn't matter because literally nothing you do is going to protect you or humanity if things go south.

I'm not going to say you can't draw parallels or that you can't substitute racism for lovecraftian horror in a story, but what I am saying is that when viewed on a non-personal level one is less  hopeless than the other.

I havent read everything Lovecraft has ever written, but I have read a majority of his stories.  Some focus on something as small as a man trapped in a crypt with no universal horrific entity elements.  Others focus on the literal reawakening and reemergence of Cthulhu which implies the end of the world.  When I use the term "lovecraftian horror" I am referring to the end-of-the-world or you-are-less-than-inconsequential-in-the-multiverse stories.  This outlook for humanity is what I feel Lovecraft is credited with maybe not inventing, but at least baking into a solid cookie for consumption.  Its just such a different scale than any story involving a group of people, wizards, monsters, and racism that defines their existence.



Spoiler: Spoiler for the show up to and including episode 8



At the end of the crooked wizard police attack on the house the characters are saved by a conveniently timed invulnerability spell and a monster popping up out of nowhere to kill all the police and end the battle.  Although some unimportant extras were probably killed in the shootout, the two important characters emerged from the ambush without any damage and having gained a magical monster pet who will apparently do Tic's bidding.  This is kind of the opposite of a hopeless lovecraftian outcome from a group of powerful evildoers coming after you.


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## CapnZapp (Oct 12, 2020)

Sabathius42 said:


> I'll try to phrase my thoughts on the differences in another way to maybe illustrate it better.
> 
> When discussing issues of racism, there is always a hope that one day things are going to get better.



I think one point of the show is that American racism is horrific precisely because it hasn't gotten better?


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## Dire Bare (Oct 12, 2020)

CapnZapp said:


> I think one point of the show is that American racism is horrific precisely because it hasn't gotten better?



It's gotten better.

We certainly haven't eliminated racism from society, there are plenty of racists left unfortunately. And there is a lot of systemic racism still embedded in society as well.

But today, the situation is not nearly as awful as it was decades ago. Awful at times and in places, but not quite so pervasively.


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## CapnZapp (Oct 13, 2020)

Dire Bare said:


> It's gotten better.
> 
> We certainly haven't eliminated racism from society, there are plenty of racists left unfortunately. And there is a lot of systemic racism still embedded in society as well.
> 
> But today, the situation is not nearly as awful as it was decades ago. Awful at times and in places, but not quite so pervasively.



The show certainly makes it hard not to get the point: HP was a racist white male. If he wasn't, he might not have had to reach to beyond the stars to find horror worthy being afraid of, he could just have described his neighbors.

And that the point isn't that it might have gotten a bit better, the point is that it's still awful and completely unacceptable in 2020. I don't know about you, but I'm not exactly thankful each time I'm _not_ shot on sight by a police officer... It's a low bar to clear not to let lynchers go free, am I right? I'm neither black nor American, but it's hard not to register people watching a show and seeing a direct link with their own, contemporary, fear of US law enforcement: being searched, seeing your friends being put in a police cruiser, not being able to shake the worry you'll never see them alive again (in that carefree way I'm sure most privileged white males like me would be able to)...


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## CapnZapp (Oct 13, 2020)

This week's ep was slower. It even featured slowmotion with operatic music.

Not sure it did it for me. That is, not saying it was bad, just that for the first time it didn't provide a moment of sheer WTF-ery. I have been quite impressed with the way this show has managed to make my jaw drop at least once every episode - and that's coming from someone who thought he'd seen it all.

That alone makes this show special, whatever you might think about the story, actors, etc


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## Herschel (Oct 21, 2020)

The final episode was pretty good. The Christina twist didn't surprise me, and JIn's move made sense. I thought there might be an elder evil reveal at the end to tie it all together, but they haven't seemingly broached that subject really at all yet.


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## cmad1977 (Oct 21, 2020)

I’m enjoying it. Some episodes more than others. It’s like watching people play “Pulp Cthulhu”. 

The finale was good, if not particularly surprising. But you don’t need to give ” me a cliffhanger with every finale. 

2 tentacles up. If the viewer is squeamish about gore... at times it might be a difficult watch.


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## CapnZapp (Oct 22, 2020)

It didn't exactly become bad, but it did run out of that special kind of WTF steam.

Perhaps it kind of had to in order to tie up a proper ending, but still, episode 8 was the last literally amazing ep.


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## Umbran (Oct 23, 2020)

I found the finale.. unsatisfying.  I found it stepped from subverting the genre tropes to just outright contradicting the genre tropes.


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## Sabathius42 (Oct 23, 2020)

Having now watched the entire season/series I can say that it wasn't a waste of time, but that I also wouldn't recommend it to anyone.  The world of the show didn't feel "real" (for example, a large number of Chicago Police were killed in a raid on a house but the world didn't seem to respond to that happening in any way) and because of that the show didn't seem to have "real" dangers or consequences for the major characters because the entire narrative seemed to take place in a fantasy world, not the real one.

It might be that I have been watching Lovecraft Country concurrent with Dark, and Dark is an improvement in almost every aspect by which you can judge a show as being well made.


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## Umbran (Oct 24, 2020)

Sabathius42 said:


> The world of the show didn't feel "real" (for example, a large number of Chicago Police were killed in a raid on a house but the world didn't seem to respond to that happening in any way)




Well, the cops were mostly killed by an eldritch horror, and the police were controlled by a cabal of wizards, so, you'd kind of expect them to cover that up.


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## Sabathius42 (Oct 25, 2020)

Umbran said:


> Well, the cops were mostly killed by an eldritch horror, and the police were controlled by a cabal of wizards, so, you'd kind of expect them to cover that up.



I'd think that 200ish shots fired from the street, dead victims in the house, a street blocked by police cars, and a giant monster sized hole might have alerted the neighbors something strange was happening.

I suppose you could make a case that the wizards mind wiped all the witnesses and magically cleaned up the scene in a shirt time and kept their mouths shut....but that seems a stretch too far to feel "real" which goes back to my point.

Also, I didn't think every one of the Chicago Police Department were wizards, just that one small station captain and his underlings.  I could be wrong with that assumption, I just don't remember seeing more than that small group each time.


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## Umbran (Oct 25, 2020)

Sabathius42 said:


> I'd think that 200ish shots fired from the street, dead victims in the house, a street blocked by police cars, and a giant monster sized hole might have alerted the neighbors something strange was happening.




It is a standard trope in the genre that folks will rationalize away almost anything they can.  Like, a giant frelling monster was running around the street ripping arms off people and eating their heads!  They _DO NOT_ want to think about that.  Their minds fog it over.

"There was some shooting, and some loud noises.  Maybe a gas line went up? I dunnno...."




Sabathius42 said:


> I suppose you could make a case that the wizards mind wiped all the witnesses and magically cleaned up the scene in a shirt time and kept their mouths shut....but that seems a stretch too far to feel "real" which goes back to my point.




Except, of course, how the wizards did the same thing to George and friends in the very first episode....


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## CapnZapp (Oct 28, 2020)

It's magic.

Yes, that is a full and exhaustive answer.


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