# Lost 2/23/07 Season Finale w/ spoilers



## DonTadow (May 24, 2007)

The two hour season finale was tonight. Was it good and did it suck you back in.


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## dravot (May 24, 2007)

It was pretty good.  

I never left, so technically it didn't suck me back in.

It did do some good things: it revealed some info, and then dangled out something else to ponder.  Finally, they get the hint.


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## DonTadow (May 24, 2007)

This one really got me back into the lost mood. The death of charlie was sad and i don't know why he didn't just leave and close the door after him.  I guess he just got tired of running from his destiny.  He wanted to die a "hero". 

I had a gut feeling that that was the future, but it didn't make any sense at all. Low and behold it sure was a future ... flashfoward. 

I"m glad hurly saved the day.  I know sawyers bad a@# now so its good to see an atypical character save the day.  I can't wait until next season.


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## Remus Lupin (May 24, 2007)

I missed the first hour, though the second hour was pretty coherent on its own. Can anyone tell me who it was that died in the first hour? Jack was going to his funeral.

Actually, since the flashforward was only revealed at the end, I suppose it's never said.


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## Demmero (May 24, 2007)

I hate the ending.  To paraphrase Hurley, "Is this some future crap?"

Also...ya think that grenade finally did in Mikhael?  That guy has more lives than your average cat.

And why did Locke walk away?  That seemed strange....


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## CrusaderX (May 24, 2007)

Woah.  Flashforwards!    

That was a great revelation, almost matched by the message from Penny telling Charlie that she didn't send a rescue boat for them.  

Both of these surprises were truly surprises for me, and they both made me remember why I loved this show in the first place. 

Great finale.  I'm hooked again.


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## EricNoah (May 24, 2007)

Awesome episode.  

Was "future Jack" implying that his dad was alive??


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## Sir Brennen (May 24, 2007)

One thing that really confused me about the flashforward... was Jack talking about his father as if he were _alive_?

And for those that thought the mini-bus episode was a waste... what a payoff!


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## EricNoah (May 24, 2007)

Great minds apparently have the same question.


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## BraveSirRobin (May 24, 2007)

Wow...now that was a finale!  Totally mind blowing!  I can't wait till the on-line version is up and running to see it again.

I am thinking the reference to his father might be to him in the morgue, maybe?


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## Remus Lupin (May 24, 2007)

I wondered about that myself: "You go up and get my old man, and if I'm drunker than he is, you can fire me." That seems pretty straightforward to me.

Lots to unpack next season.


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## EricNoah (May 24, 2007)

So maybe we're done with flashbacks ... maybe now it's all futureflashes?


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## Demmero (May 24, 2007)

Remus Lupin said:
			
		

> I wondered about that myself: "You go up and get my old man, and if I'm drunker than he is, you can fire me." That seems pretty straightforward to me.
> 
> Lots to unpack next season.




Yeah, if Jack's dad is dead, then Jack's turned really, really, really pathetic.

And who do you think was in the closed coffin?  Walt?  Locke?  Sawyer?  Juliet?  I can't come up with a good guess on that little mystery.  Whose death would drive Jack to want to kill himself?


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## CrusaderX (May 24, 2007)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> The death of charlie was sad and i don't know why he didn't just leave and close the door after him.  I guess he just got tired of running from his destiny.  He wanted to die a "hero".




I initially thought that Charlie's death was pointless, since he could have easily saved himself.  But if you view it as Charlie fullfilling Desmond's vision of the future (with Claire being rescued as a direct result of Charlie drowning), it makes more sense.  Charlie willingly sacrificed himself for Claire.


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## ohGr (May 24, 2007)

I called the whole flash-future thing during the first one, on the bridge.  That said, the scene were Jack mentions his father seemed like a 'Jack's completely losing it' bit to me; the other doctor gives him a rather pitying look and Jack says something to the effect of "don't give me that look."  Whether he knew he made the slip or not, it played out to me that he was either drunk, high or simply losing it.


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## RigaMortus2 (May 24, 2007)

Remus Lupin said:
			
		

> I wondered about that myself: "You go up and get my old man, and if I'm drunker than he is, you can fire me." That seems pretty straightforward to me.




Yeah, up in heaven maybe...


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## David Howery (May 24, 2007)

okay, so who do you suppose the 'bad guys' on the ship are?


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## RigaMortus2 (May 24, 2007)

Demmero said:
			
		

> Yeah, if Jack's dad is dead, then Jack's turned really, really, really pathetic.
> 
> And who do you think was in the closed coffin?  Walt?  Locke?  Sawyer?  Juliet?  I can't come up with a good guess on that little mystery.  Whose death would drive Jack to want to kill himself?




I think it was a male that died.  Didn't Jack ask Kate why she didn't go to "his" funeral?  And Kate replied, "why would I?".

You know, since LOST is all about twists and stuff, what if the person in the coffin is Ben?  We still have 3 seasons to go, so a lot can happen in that time.


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## RigaMortus2 (May 24, 2007)

David Howery said:
			
		

> okay, so who do you suppose the 'bad guys' on the ship are?




Not sure...  Alvar Hanso?  Charles Widmore (and company)?

I think Naomi doesn't have any idea who she is working for, or that they are the "bad guys".  Or, she is like the Others and is just a very convincing liar.

I guess when she told them that the passengers of 815 were all found dead, either she was lying (and she is with the "bad guys") or that was just what she was told.


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## Remus Lupin (May 24, 2007)

I was going to say either Locke or Sawyer, but BEN is a good one! That would explain why Jack would be there (got to get back the island), and Kate would express so much contempt.


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## Steve Jung (May 24, 2007)

Maybe they're Dharma. i didn't catch on to the flashforwards until Kate showed up. Was it just my imagination, or were Jin and Sun on the plane with Jack? Hurley saving the day was nice.


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## Banshee16 (May 24, 2007)

Wow!!!  Finally the beating the Others have had coming to them was administered.  That was a huge payoff after all the games they've been playing the last three years.

Of course, by the look of the flashforward, maybe the Others had a point.  Now we have to wait all summer (and until January??) to figure out what's going on, and who the rescuers are.  But if the Others are actually good, why won't they just reveal why it's so bad to leave the island?

And Penny.  We know from the end of season two that Penny is looking for Desmond.....yet it's not her boat.  But someone with resources is looking for the island.....her father?

I'm glad it was Hurley who saved the day.  It was upsetting to see him getting the short end of the stick from everyone.

As for Charlie....it strikes me.  He wasn't injured.  Why couldn't he have simply waited until the air was almost gone, taken a deep breath, and swum out?  As the amount of air left in the room decreased, the level of water pressure pushing into the room would have decreased, and he could have swam out the porthole, couldn't he?

I was thinking...what if next season they actually *do* get off the island, and the remainder of the series is about the repurcushions of that?  Them finding out why the island was important, why they will come to regret leaving, etc.

Banshee


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## Hand of Evil (May 24, 2007)

Okay, Dorothy, you click your heels three times and say, I wish I was home, I wish...At what point will Jack wake up?  Hell, lets just beat him up some more, because his life has not sucked so far.  

I was not happy with it.


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## Silver Moon (May 24, 2007)

Sir Brennen said:
			
		

> And for those that thought the mini-bus episode was a waste... what a payoff!



Well said.    Reminded me a lot of a D&D game we had once (a PC was from the 20th century and had a Jeep which the party used very effectively to take out a group of bad guys who had taken over their home island).


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## Grymar (May 24, 2007)

Great episode.

I have to admit that I figured out it was a flash forward early on.  I later began to doubt that, but I wasn't shocked when I saw Kate.  For once, I got lucky. 




			
				Banshee16 said:
			
		

> As for Charlie....it strikes me.  He wasn't injured.  Why couldn't he have simply waited until the air was almost gone, taken a deep breath, and swum out?  As the amount of air left in the room decreased, the level of water pressure pushing into the room would have decreased, and he could have swam out the porthole, couldn't he?




If he had opened the hatch, most likely he and Desmond would have died.  At the very least they could have suffered from the bends if they would have taken deep breaths and tried to direct ascend to the surface.  He decided to let Dez live.  Well done, hobbit-man.

I honestly thought that Locke might shoot Jack.  Heh, I was kind of rooting for it.


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## Skycast (May 24, 2007)

Remus Lupin said:
			
		

> I was going to say either Locke or Sawyer, but BEN is a good one! That would explain why Jack would be there (got to get back the island), and Kate would express so much contempt.




I'm thinking the HIM that Kate was referring to when she meet Jack at the airport and  said "I have to get back, he'll be wondering where I am," might be Ben.


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## Grymar (May 24, 2007)

Maybe.  We know Kate seems to alway have a man or two in her life.  I see no reason why it has to be someone from the island.

Someone else mention, and they have a good point, that a techie sort of clue that it was a flash forward was that jack was using a black razor, which didn't exist in 2004 when the plane went down.


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## RangerWickett (May 24, 2007)

I liked it. I decided before the show came on that if the 'climbing music' played, I would love the episode, and it played a lot. Y'know, the heroic travel music they have? Groovy.

However . . .

Okay, here's the thing. I want to know what's going on. There have _got_ to be people among the Lostaways who are actually curious. Why is no one f---ing asking "WHY!?!"

Jack: We're getting off this island.

Ben: Don't, it's dangerous.

Jack: I'm not listening to you anymore, you devil-tongued bastard.

Random lostie: Um . . . Jack, it's not going to kill us if we wait 30 seconds. Hey, bug-eyed guy, um . . . _why_ is it dangerous?

Ben: All I can tell you is, if you make that call, you'll all die.

Random lostie: That's it? Because, y'know, if you gave us a _little_ bit more information, we, um, might actually believe you. What's so important that you can't tell about it, even at the cost of your own life? I mean, damn, we've been fighting a lot, when all we want to do is get off this island. I'm honestly tired of it. Isn't that right? *looks around*

Other generic losties: *nod, mumble, agree*

Random lostie: Okay, so, what's your name?

Ben: Hi, I'm Ben.

Random lostie: Okay Ben, I'm Hamid. See, you're Ben, I'm Hamid. We're sharing information, making a rapport, _not_ wanting to kill each other. See how easy this is? Y'know, there's no waving guns around, no 'I can't tell you my name, because keeping some random ass secret is more important than my life.' We're just talking, like two normal people who are on the same f---ed up island. Right?

Everyone: . . .

Hamid: So Ben, here's the deal. I am *chuckle* really f---ing tired of not knowing what's going on. I'm so tired at this point, all you have to do is _lie_ to me -- convincingly -- about why we need to stay here, and why us getting rescued is a bad idea. You're Mr. "I'm gonna trick you with my silver tongue," so why don't you use that oversized little noggin of yours and tell us why we can't leave.

Ben: . . . Wow. I'd never thought of it like that before. I'm really sorry for being irrationally secretive at the cost of your friends' lives and my people's lives. Thank you, Hamid, for snapping me out of it. Sure, I'll tell you everything.

*LOST​*
See, now wouldn't that have been a _great_ cliffhanger?


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## DonTadow (May 24, 2007)

Sir Brennen said:
			
		

> One thing that really confused me about the flashforward... was Jack talking about his father as if he were _alive_?
> 
> And for those that thought the mini-bus episode was a waste... what a payoff!



I chalk it up to Jack being drunk and delusional. The other doctor looked at jack as if he was crazy.  Then again, I will probably be wrong on this and there will be a big twist on it.  Catch me up to speed again, how did jack's father die and did we seea body? 

The razer thing was a big hint, but I told my fiance at that moment
"look honey lost screwed up by trying to include some product placement. That phone wasn't out three years ago.  " THen I became the dope at the end of the show. 

I think it was Sawyer, it makes sense for it to be sawyer which means its not sawyer and probably Jin .  I think ben is an even further longshot, he just doesn't radiate the kind of charm that Kate falls for.


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## Skycast (May 24, 2007)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> I think it was Sawyer, it makes sense for it to be sawyer which means its not sawyer and probably Jin .  I think ben is an even further longshot, he just doesn't radiate the kind of charm that Kate falls for.




No need it has to be Ben in a romantic sort of way.


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## Grymar (May 24, 2007)

But not only was Jack referring to his father as alive in the hospital, he had a written script (forged, probably) from his father.  He wouldn't try to pass that off if his father was dead, would he? 

He might, but I'm really tempted to think that his dad was alive.

BUT (thinking here) then why would Jack have even been on Oceanic 815?  The only reason he was on there was because of his dad's death.  

OK, I'm not sure any more.


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## TracerBullet42 (May 24, 2007)

So...where was Alpert?


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## Taelorn76 (May 24, 2007)

Some one else here mentioned it but I thought Charlie's death was pointless. He had already set the rescue in motion by turning off the jamming signal. He had received the message from Penny that Naomi was not working for her. Plus he had ample time to close the door behind him. Michal didn't release the trigger on the grenade until after Charlie closed the door.


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## Sir Brennen (May 24, 2007)

The body of Jack's father is somewhere on the island, as it was being transported home by Jack on the flight. Jack has also seen his father on the island... maybe it _wasn't_ just a hallucination and an island pod-person is back impersonating Jack's father and performing drunken surgeries.  Or not. 

Casket... I too made the jump that it might be Ben in there. With the Boaters coming, perhaps the Losties discover that they need to reluctantly join forces with Ben to save themselves, in effect becoming "the Others". Jack obviously learns of the importance of the island, though belatedly. If Ben dies, especially if it's a consequence of leaving the island, Jack's last real hope of returning to it is gone, which is why he tries to commit suicide.

I could also see Locke being the one in the casket for the same reason. The rest of the Losties would still hold resentment toward him for trying to keep them on the island. 

And my, Walt sure looks older than when Locke saw him a few weeks ago  (_THAT_ vision I didn't expect... what's the significance of it being Walt?)

Even though Hurley got sort of dumped on, I really like the fact that Charlie and Sawyer both were cruel to him only because they were genuinely trying to protect him. I also liked the fact last week that Charlie couldn't let his last words to Hugo be those comments about him being fat. 

I agree with Ranger Wickett to some extent that if Ben hiked across the island with the idea he was going to change Jack's mind, I'd think he'd at least offer up some explanation other than "Trust me..."  Though he did have a plan in place to try and force Jack to co-operate. Maybe that's just another example of how Ben's mind works... manipulation before explanation.


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## Remus Lupin (May 24, 2007)

You know what might be  interesting -- if from now on, instead of filling us in on backstory, every episode is a flashforward, that works sequentially BACKWARD from events we saw last night to the the moment that they arrive back on the mainland. So that chronologically, we saw the absolute last image of the show last night, but in terms of storytelling, the very last episode will be them getting off of the Island (in fact, there needen't even be any "flashing" of any kind in that episode).

So, beginning of next season, we discover who was in the coffin. Say it's Ben, we then go back through several episodes to discover in reverse how Ben came to die, who Kate ended up with, and why. So, as in Momento, the story is compelling only because we want to know what caused the events that we're looking at right now.

It also means the story of these characters' lives ends in total despair.


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## RedShirtNo5 (May 24, 2007)

Wow, great episode.

I knew there was somthing wrong with the "flashbacks" but wasn't sure what.

While it does seem like Charlie could have escaped, it is consistent with Lost - he had kicked his habit and established a new family.  Charlies character arc was complete so it was time for him to go.

I think Jack found a script form pad from his father and forged the script.  He stormed out because he knew if the pharmacist made the call she would find out his father was dead.

The  "You go up and get my old man," was simultaneously showing Jack as so drunk/drugged up that he was loosing it and clubbing us over the head with a message - since Jack didn't resolve his issues on the island he was doomed to follow in his father's footsteps.

I initially thought that the dead body was Sawyer, but Ben makes alot of sense.

So, is the future immutable?


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## Demmero (May 24, 2007)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> Catch me up to speed again, how did jack's father die and did we see a body?




I'm not sure it was ever officially announced what the cause of his death was (although alcohol poisoning seems a real possibility...and now I'm thinking that maybe it was a heart issue), but I know I recall a scene where Jack IDs his father at the morgue.


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## Ambrus (May 24, 2007)

Quoted for truth said:
			
		

> Alex: You locked Carl in a cage and tried to brainwash him!
> Ben: I didn't want him getting you pregnant. I may have overreacted.



Overreaction is Ben's modus operandi. 

As Hurley would say: "Dude..."


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## DonTadow (May 24, 2007)

Grymar said:
			
		

> But not only was Jack referring to his father as alive in the hospital, he had a written script (forged, probably) from his father.  He wouldn't try to pass that off if his father was dead, would he?
> 
> He might, but I'm really tempted to think that his dad was alive.
> 
> ...



Bam! you're right. He sure did. IF his father had been dead for as long as they've been on the island, his script pad wouldn't even be around. 

More questions than answers now me thinks.


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## David Howery (May 24, 2007)

was the jamming station deep enough that one would get the bends swimming out of it?  If it was only deep enough that you could hold your breath and swim down to it, that isn't enough to cause the bends, is it?  It seems to me Charlie could have simply run out and jumped into the moonpool, yelling at Desmond to do the same.... no need to close off the room....


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## Grymar (May 24, 2007)

Well, do you think the moonpool was deeper than 66 feet?  Beyond that is the point where divers have to start planning staged ascents.  Plus there is a risk of an embolism if they tried to hold their breath on the ascent...they would have to exhale the entire way up (which isn't as easy as it sounds) or their lungs would rupture from the expanding air.  I can see Dez having the training for that from his military and sailing days, but not Charlie.

Some have said that Charlie should have swam out the port-hole, but it was barely as big around as Patchy's face.  There is no way, IMO, that he would have been able to squeeze out there.


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## DonTadow (May 24, 2007)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> Some one else here mentioned it but I thought Charlie's death was pointless. He had already set the rescue in motion by turning off the jamming signal. He had received the message from Penny that Naomi was not working for her. Plus he had ample time to close the door behind him. Michal didn't release the trigger on the grenade until after Charlie closed the door.



Someone layed it out for me earlier. Charlie is convinced that if the vision does not go how desmond said, claire would not go off of the island.  Kinda like Desmond's previousvision. Charlie was suppose to die, and then he would see his wife. However, he saved charlies and instead of his wife it was someone else.  If charlie had lived, according to this logic,  claire still would not be rescued.


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## Taelorn76 (May 24, 2007)

Sir Brennen said:
			
		

> I agree with Ranger Wickett to some extent that if Ben hiked across the island with the idea he was going to change Jack's mind, I'd think he'd at least offer up some explaination other than "Trust me..."  Though he did have a plan in place to try and force Jack to co-operate. Maybe that's just another example of how Ben's mind works... manipulation before than explaination.




I think that is the best way that I have heard how to describe how Ben thinks


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## Arnwyn (May 24, 2007)

Wow, what a perfectly terrible episode. I'm glad others liked it, but I found it to be boring, stupid, and a waste of my time.

There were only 2 good things about that episode:
- Hurley driving in to save the Losties (and he's the only thing that makes this show worth watching);
- The Others getting brutally killed and beaten. That was worth watching.

Jack's "flashback" (or whatever the hell that was) made not one wit of sense, and thus was entirely uncompelling. Thanks for nothing. (Now, I'm sure they're trying to introduce yet _another_ [lame] mystery here, but I found it so poorly done that it simply wasn't worth my time to suffer through it.)



			
				RangerWickett said:
			
		

> Okay, here's the thing. I want to know what's going on. There have got to be people among the Lostaways who are actually curious. Why is no one f---ing asking "WHY!?!"
> 
> Jack: We're getting off this island.
> 
> ...



And this really _really_ bears repeating, as it was my other major issue with this episode. By this point, it'd be funny if it weren't entirely stupid.

But, like I said - I'm glad others liked it.


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## EricNoah (May 24, 2007)

RedShirtNo5 said:
			
		

> I knew there was somthing wrong with the "flashbacks" but wasn't sure what.




Jack's fake beard?


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## Hand of Evil (May 24, 2007)

The more I think about this one, the more I dislike it.  I do think it has finally jumped the shark for me.  

Stupid deaths:
1. Charlie - yea, it was suicide, noble or not, just stupid. Figure he would do anything to get off the show. 
2. Niomi - Locke recovers from death, travels accross the island and kills someone he does not know.  So many other ways to have done it.  
3. Tom - An other and needed a bullet in him but Sawyer did not get sick, may be he is getting use to killing.  


The biggest question I have is who's vision is was, Locke's as laid in the ditch, Jack's as he sits in a chair being mind-control after saving Ben, or Desmond's. I think, it is Jack in a chair being mind controlled, aka Karl.


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## Taelorn76 (May 24, 2007)

Hand of Evil said:
			
		

> The biggest question I have is who's vision is was, Locke's as laid in the ditch, Jack's as he sits in a chair being mind-control after saving Ben, or Desmond's. I think, it is Jack in a chair being mind controlled, aka Karl.




Not sure if I follow, what vision are you talking about?


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (May 24, 2007)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> Some one else here mentioned it but I thought Charlie's death was pointless.



The visions change unless fulfilled. He was getting Claire rescued by a helicopter by fulfilling the vision. He had to die.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (May 24, 2007)

Hand of Evil said:
			
		

> 1. Charlie - yea, it was suicide, noble or not, just stupid. Figure he would do anything to get off the show.



See the interview up on EW right now. He doesn't hate the show and likes the arc with the death. And heck, Boone and Shannon have shown up a ton of times since being killed off.



> 2. Niomi - Locke recovers from death, travels accross the island and kills someone he does not know.



Locke is getting direct communications from the island. Immediately before showing up, it manifested as a vision of a fast-growing Walt and told him he had tasks to do. We didn't see what those tasks were, but given Locke's words and actions, it seems clear he was told the same things that Ben was.


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## Hand of Evil (May 24, 2007)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> Not sure if I follow, what vision are you talking about?



The flash forward and maybe the whole episode, if not, then the Jack parts of them, from the point where he tells Kate on the radio, not to come back for him.  I have a feeling he is strapped in that chair, Jullette and Ben feeding him drugs and a story, that is why things are so screwed up with him in the future flashes, now all he wants is to be back on the island, and Ben is the only one that can get him back there but he is the person in the coffin, along with Jack's hope but what happens, Ben appears and Jack begs him to take him back, how horrible a mistake it was, that he was wrong and Ben was right....


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## BraveSirRobin (May 24, 2007)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> I
> Ben: . . . Wow. I'd never thought of it like that before. I'm really sorry for being irrationally secretive at the cost of your friends' lives and my people's lives. Thank you, Hamid, for snapping me out of it. Sure, I'll tell you everything.




To be blunt, this is poor logic.  So just because you asked him nicely, you NOW think he is going to tell the truth?  The large majority of those watching would have been shouting for someone to whack him in the mouth, just like the french woman did, just to have him stop talking.  It would have been the absurdities of all absurdities if they listened to him after all the mind games he has played on them over their time on the island. 

From his presepective he would never tell the truth.  We saw in the last episode that he is a paranoid meglomanic and doesn't want to share his "truth" with anyone.  That is why he shot Locke.


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## 6pakofdwarves (May 24, 2007)

I think the beginning of next season will reveal that the flash forward was a vision of Desmonds. Then he runs up as they are ABOUT to leave and convinces them not to. Thus avoiding the pathetic future Jack.


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## Taelorn76 (May 24, 2007)

Hand of Evil said:
			
		

> The flash forward and maybe the whole episode, if not, then the Jack parts of them, from the point where he tells Kate on the radio, not to come back for him.  I have a feeling he is strapped in that chair, Jullette and Ben feeding him drugs and a story, that is why things are so screwed up with him in the future flashes, now all he wants is to be back on the island, and Ben is the only one that can get him back there but he is the person in the coffin, along with Jack's hope but what happens, Ben appears and Jack begs him to take him back, how horrible a mistake it was, that he was wrong and Ben was right....




So your talking about something like what they did in Dallas back in the 80s, the whole season being a dream?


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## Hand of Evil (May 24, 2007)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> So your talking about something like what they did in Dallas back in the 80s, the whole season being a dream?



It was done with Wizard of Oz way before then.  I don't know IF it will be everything, maybe just some parts, the Jack stuff after he got back to the castaways, it may have been from the gassing on.


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## Taelorn76 (May 24, 2007)

Hand of Evil said:
			
		

> It was done with Wizard of Oz way before then.  I don't know IF it will be everything, maybe just some parts, the Jack stuff after he got back to the castaways, it may have been from the gassing on.




That's is an interesting theory, but I think that would anger alot of viewers. They would have to come up with something really good for the non dream sequence.


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## DonTadow (May 24, 2007)

Hand of Evil said:
			
		

> The more I think about this one, the more I dislike it.  I do think it has finally jumped the shark for me.
> 
> Stupid deaths:
> 1. Charlie - yea, it was suicide, noble or not, just stupid. Figure he would do anything to get off the show.
> ...



I find your reasoning strange for the deaths if you've been watching the show and its mythos. 

1. Charlie is convinced that only his death will save claire. He learned his lesson in the forest when Desmon saved him, it saved the future.  Charlie wants the future to remain the same with clare saved.  

2. This was a powerful scene about Lockes personality.  I really dug it. Locke is a superman when no ones looking. H ecan kill someone he doesn't know in the back if he has to.  But a friend, someone he knows Locke can't do it. Its not in him. 

3 Don't forget, Thom tried to kill Sawyer more than once. He's embarrased them and wanted to kill their friends if he had his way.


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## DonTadow (May 24, 2007)

Hand of Evil said:
			
		

> It was done with Wizard of Oz way before then.  I don't know IF it will be everything, maybe just some parts, the Jack stuff after he got back to the castaways, it may have been from the gassing on.



It also happened in St. Elsewhere. I seriously doubt that your theory holds water.  "it was all a dream" has been labeled the worst storyline in any game/movie/tvshow.


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## Hand of Evil (May 24, 2007)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> It also happened in St. Elsewhere. I seriously doubt that your theory holds water.  "it was all a dream" has been labeled the worst storyline in any game/movie/tvshow.



Not dream, planted memories via clockwork orange, it will be mixed in with some truth to hold it together.


----------



## Hijinks (May 24, 2007)

I wonder ... maybe the "fast-growing Walt" means that the island is on a different time than the rest of the world?

Naomi said that they had found the plane, and found all of the bodies at the bottom of the ocean.  That takes time.  She also told Charlie that he's famous now, and has a "Greatest Hits" album out because he supposedly died in the crash.  But we all know it takes longer than 3 months to get an album produced, and they've said things on the island that leads me to believe it's been about 90 days, not much longer than that.

So maybe the rest of the world has progressed a year or two, while it's only been a few months for them?  I'm not sure how that would tie in to the pregnant women dying, if it does, but it's an interesting idea.


----------



## David Howery (May 24, 2007)

Grymar said:
			
		

> Well, do you think the moonpool was deeper than 66 feet?  Beyond that is the point where divers have to start planning staged ascents.  Plus there is a risk of an embolism if they tried to hold their breath on the ascent...they would have to exhale the entire way up (which isn't as easy as it sounds) or their lungs would rupture from the expanding air.  I can see Dez having the training for that from his military and sailing days, but not Charlie.
> 
> Some have said that Charlie should have swam out the port-hole, but it was barely as big around as Patchy's face.  There is no way, IMO, that he would have been able to squeeze out there.



no clue.... I know nothing about deep sea diving, but I thought if you went only as deep as you could hold your breath, it wasn't that deep... the thing didn't look like it was 60' below the surface....


----------



## Sir Brennen (May 24, 2007)

Hijinks said:
			
		

> I wonder ... maybe the "fast-growing Walt" means that the island is on a different time than the rest of the world?



Nah, I think it was just something that couldn't be helped because the _actors_ are aging faster than the show's storyline. Especially obvious with a child actor. Though, given how obvious this would be, it does make one wonder why they chose Walt to appear.



			
				Hand of Evil said:
			
		

> Not dream, planted memories via clockwork orange, it will be mixed in with some truth to hold it together.



Whether "planted memories" or a dream, the narrative effect is the same: "Half the season you just saw never really happened. Thanks for watching!" That would indeed cheese viewers off to no end. Given how much Jack would have to "remember" that wasn't even related to him, like scenes which involved no-one but the Others, or even the flashbacks of other people,  and then act as if he had no knowledge of what he just dreamed about as he continues his dream.

Nope, doesn't hold water. Plus, it would be contradictory to the quality of scripting and plotting evident in the series (even tho many people complain that it's gotten bad recently, I don't believe it will ever get *that* bad.)


----------



## Taelorn76 (May 24, 2007)

Desmond has mentioned before that he does not see a complete picture of the future only pieces of it. I don't thing Penny was every going to land on the island. He assumed it was her because he saw someone parachute down, found a bag with a book and a picture of him and Penny, none of his visions actually showed Penny as the parachuter. He assumed it was her.

Same thing can be said about Charlie. In his visions I don't think Desmond was in the looking glass with Charlie. He saw 

Charlie stopping the jamming signal
The looking glass flooding
Claire being rescued

He may never have seen Charlie die like he did in the others. Struck by lighting, drowning, arrow through the throat, He may have assumed that Charlie had to died down there. And by telling Charlie that, Charlie felt that was the only option. But in reality, the signal was stopped and the rescue is on the way, and Charlie should've/could've been alive.


----------



## Mark CMG (May 24, 2007)

Here's some thoughts before I read other folk's thoughts . . .

I think Ben is in the coffin.  I think the hatch Charlie closed could only be latched from his side, so it avoided killing Desmond by avoiding flooding the whole station.  (How could he let Des die right after meeting Penny?  )  I had thought that Desmond would somehow get back to the beach and get in touch with Jack on the walkie talkies before Jack talked on the high tech phone, and that Jack would then destroy the high tech phone as an end to the season.  Walt got old. I had a feeling that Ben and Locke would both wind up switching which team they were on, whether the team they wind up on wants them or not.  Sawyer seems to like killing people now or, at least, think it is okay to do so.  Jin with the sweep and Sayid with the scissors neck snap, booyah!  Don't forget that Charlie's ring is still in the crib back at the beach.  I wonder if we will eventually find out who the musician was that programmed the Looking Glass station jamming code.


----------



## occam (May 24, 2007)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> This one really got me back into the lost mood. The death of charlie was sad and i don't know why he didn't just leave and close the door after him.  I guess he just got tired of running from his destiny.  He wanted to die a "hero".




For Charlie to get out of the room he would've had to fight Desmond desperately trying to get in and see Penny. In the scuffle, either the door may not have closed in time, or Desmond could've gotten into the room and drowned. I think Charlie made a decision to sacrifice himself to save Desmond. Plus, it fulfills the conditions of the vision Desmond described to him, supposedly leading to Claire's rescue.


----------



## occam (May 24, 2007)

Banshee16 said:
			
		

> Wow!!!  Finally the beating the Others have had coming to them was administered.  That was a huge payoff after all the games they've been playing the last three years.




Woo hoo!! Very satisfying to see the tables turned, finally.



			
				Banshee16 said:
			
		

> As for Charlie....it strikes me.  He wasn't injured.  Why couldn't he have simply waited until the air was almost gone, taken a deep breath, and swum out?  As the amount of air left in the room decreased, the level of water pressure pushing into the room would have decreased, and he could have swam out the porthole, couldn't he?




I think some of the camera work confused the situation. Take a look near the end of the scene, when Charlie is floating next to the porthole, and you'll see that it's way too small for him to fit through.


----------



## occam (May 24, 2007)

Grymar said:
			
		

> Someone else mention, and they have a good point, that a techie sort of clue that it was a flash forward was that jack was using a black razor, which didn't exist in 2004 when the plane went down.




I noticed the slick phone, which got me to thinking about how the producers need to be careful to keep consumer tech, cars, etc. set in a world of 2004 or earlier. But I still didn't figure it out.


----------



## occam (May 24, 2007)

Sir Brennen said:
			
		

> Even though Hurley got sort of dumped on, I really like the fact that Charlie and Sawyer both were cruel to him only because they were genuinely trying to protect him. I also liked the fact last week that Charlie couldn't let his last words to Hugo be those comments about him being fat.




Exactly. As unpleasant as those exchanges were, Charlie and Sawyer were doing it out of love. Which demonstrates some really nice character development, actually. I'm just glad that Hurley didn't take those things to heart and find a cliff to jump from. Go go Hugo!!


----------



## occam (May 24, 2007)

RedShirtNo5 said:
			
		

> I knew there was somthing wrong with the "flashbacks" but wasn't sure what.




My wife and I noticed there was something weird about them, too, but couldn't figure it out (until the end). I was thinking about it some more this morning: Did they neglect to play that "whoosh" sound effect they usually use to introduce flashback scenes when they did the flashforwards? That would be a subtle clue, easily missed. (I had to delete the episode from the TiVo to clear some space, so I can't recheck.)


----------



## RigaMortus2 (May 24, 2007)

Banshee16 said:
			
		

> I was thinking...what if next season they actually *do* get off the island, and the remainder of the series is about the repurcushions of that?  Them finding out why the island was important, why they will come to regret leaving, etc.
> 
> Banshee




I was thinking of the exact same thing.  Then they can have flashbacks of when they were on the island (perhaps new scenes that we the viewers have not seen).


----------



## RigaMortus2 (May 24, 2007)

Hand of Evil said:
			
		

> 2. Niomi - Locke recovers from death, travels accross the island and kills someone he does not know.  So many other ways to have done it.




I may not be remembering correctly, but who did Locke kill?  He pointed a gun at Jack and threatened to kill him, but then just walked off.  Who was he person Locke killed?  What scene was that in?


----------



## Asmo (May 24, 2007)

From lostpedia.com, easter eggs section:

The funeral parlor Jack visits is "Hoffs/Drawlar", an anagram of "flash forward."  

The newspaper clipping Jack holds appears to contain information about a man from New York, who died after 4 a.m. in "The Tower" on Grand Avenue in downtown Los Angeles. The man's first name appears to begin with a J, with his surname possibly ending in "antham." 


Asmo


----------



## RigaMortus2 (May 24, 2007)

Mark CMG said:
			
		

> I wonder if we will eventually find out who the musician was that programmed the Looking Glass station jamming code.




I don't know why I just thought of this, but in the movie _Short Circut 2_, Fischer Stevens who plays the character Ben (coincidence ?) gets locked in a freezer by some bad guys, and he uses a keypad to play the beach boys "Help me Rhonda" as a signal to his girl friend to get rescued (another beach boys song via keypad dialtones, used to get rescued, coincidence number 2 and 3?).


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (May 25, 2007)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> So your talking about something like what they did in Dallas back in the 80s, the whole season being a dream?



St. Elsewhere turned out to be the same sort of thing. It's never been satisfying, except when it was played for laughs in the final episode of "Newhart," when it turned out the whole show had been a bad dream by the lead character from "The Bob Newhart Show." It even weakens the Wizard of Oz, IMO.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (May 25, 2007)

RigaMortus2 said:
			
		

> I may not be remembering correctly, but who did Locke kill?  He pointed a gun at Jack and threatened to kill him, but then just walked off.  Who was he person Locke killed?  What scene was that in?



That same scene, Naomi has finally gotten through on the cellphone, it's ringing ... and she falls face-forward, a Bowie knife lodged in her back, Locke standing behind her, having just thrown it.

Jack grabs the phone and the conversation with the gun is all about whether or not Jack is going to complete the call she started.


----------



## LightPhoenix (May 25, 2007)

The episode was... okay.  I didn't think it was great, but it definitely wasn't awful.

The flashforwards were boring.  Then again, it was about Jack, so that may have been part of it.  While I agree with the sentiment that the flashbacks were getting stale, I don't think this is the way to go.  Didn't care who was in the coffin, didn't care who Kate was with.  Did not know they were flashforwards until Kate.

My guess is that Naomi and her team are from Dharma, trying to retake the island.  I don't think her team is at odds with the survivors - on the contrary, we're shown Jack and Kate (apparently free) off the island.

Jack, Ben, Juliet, and Kate were boring.  Everyone else was great.  Rose needs to be on the show more, and Sayid definitely needs more screen time.  I like the return of Evil Sawyer, and I loved Charlie's death scene with Desmond.  Finally, Hurley with the van almost makes the previous episode worth it.  Danielle hitting Ben and her first words to her daughter made me cheer/laugh.

I would have liked to have seen Charlie live, but I get the feeling he was supposed to die earlier in the show.

I find it highly amusing that Lost's numbers were much improved when they answered questions (story).

Nice point by Alex - why not just let them leave, if they're messing up the way the island works.


----------



## LightPhoenix (May 25, 2007)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> St. Elsewhere turned out to be the same sort of thing. It's never been satisfying, except when it was played for laughs in the final episode of "Newhart," when it turned out the whole show had been a bad dream by the lead character from "The Bob Newhart Show." It even weakens the Wizard of Oz, IMO.




I completely agree.  It's the television equivalent of turning to your friends and giving them the finger while spitting in their face.


----------



## BraveSirRobin (May 25, 2007)

I just watched it again on line and just noticed a line I thought interesting.  When Mikhail first enters the looking glass and finds Bonnie and the other girl there, he says, "I thought you two were transfered to Canada?" or somethig along those lines.  What the heck does that mean?


----------



## Droogie (May 25, 2007)

I have to say, I really  really enjoyed the episode. I've never cheered and screamed more at a  TV show. Definitely more bang to it than the lackluster 'Heroes' finale.


The dynamite gets shot, 'others' flying in all directions:  "YYYEAAHH!!!!"
JAck pummeling the living crap out of Ben: "YEAAHHHHH!!! KILL THE B*STARD!!!!!"
John Locke opens his eyes: "YEAH! GET'EM, LOCK! ARISE!!!! ARISE, LAZURUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Hurley saving the day, Sawyer going all dirty harry on Tom: "YYEEESSSSSSS!!!!!".

I just lost it. I was insane. So satisfied, I needed a cigarette, and I don't even smoke.

Sad to see Charlie go, and I, too, am frustrated by the shockingly small amounts of important information that is shared between characters. But damn. Can't wait for next season.

Observation: Didn't the casket seem a bit small to you? Maybe it's a younger person? Maybe I'm wrong.


----------



## Droogie (May 25, 2007)

BraveSirRobin said:
			
		

> I just watched it again on line and just noticed a line I thought interesting.  When Mikhail first enters the looking glass and finds Bonnie and the other girl there, he says, "I thought you two were transfered to Canada?" or somethig along those lines.  What the heck does that mean?





They must be former Dharma, just like Mikhail and Ben. I figure whoever they couldn't "convert" got gassed in the end.


----------



## Banshee16 (May 25, 2007)

Grymar said:
			
		

> If he had opened the hatch, most likely he and Desmond would have died.  At the very least they could have suffered from the bends if they would have taken deep breaths and tried to direct ascend to the surface.  He decided to let Dez live.  Well done, hobbit-man.
> 
> I honestly thought that Locke might shoot Jack.  Heh, I was kind of rooting for it.




I meant, why didn't he swim out the window?  The pressure wouldn't be pushing water in, once the amount of air in the room had decreased, so theoretically, he could get out and swim to the surface.  He kept looking at that hole, like he was planning on swimming out it, and I was waiting for him to make a go for it.

As to the bends, would he even get the bends?  I'm no diving expert, but I thought you only get the bends from compressed air in scuba tanks etc.  Unless breathing air in a sub-surface habitat, and then trying to swim to the surface would simply cause the same problem.

Banshee


----------



## Banshee16 (May 25, 2007)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> IOkay, here's the thing. I want to know what's going on. There have _got_ to be people among the Lostaways who are actually curious. Why is no one f---ing asking "WHY!?!"
> 
> Jack: We're getting off this island.
> 
> ...




Interesting theory for an alternate sequence of events.  If I had to guess, they don't say anything because:

A) They all know the Others have kidnapped survivors before.

B) They all know the Others are planning on kidnapping the women.

C) The Losties have been quite clear about the fact that the Others can't be trusted.  Specifically, Ben can't be trusted, because he's a consumate liar, and it's impossible to separate truth from fiction with him.

D) Locke wants to stay on the island....so can he be trusted?

I thought for a while about why Ben won't just open his yap and start spilling the goods.  If he's soooooo desperate to "save the island", maybe he should stop manipulating that tribe of homesick survivors, and start actually dishing out some truth.

I suspect that at this point, the Others have just pushed the survivors too far.  You can't abuse people over and over, lie to them again and again, and expect them to trust you.  Of course they're going to fight back.  And of course they'll be reluctant to believe anything you say.

Ben may be manipulative, but either there is some super-secret/important reason why he can't tell the survivors what's going on, or him and his gang of goons are complete morons, who've seriously miscalculated human nature, and how these survivors are likely to react.

It's kind of interesting though.  I was relfecting at the end of the episode about events on the island, and realizing a few things...

1-The Others actually haven't really killed many survivors.  How many?  Maybe one?

2-The survivors have killed *several* Others.  As of last night, at least 10.

3-In the first season, the Frenchwoman talked about her crewmates going mad.

4-What if the survivors are actually the jungle savages, and the Others are the civilized ones?

5-All of this suposition could be invalidated by the fact that the Others murdered like 40 Dharma Initiative members in cold blood.

Banshee
Banshee


----------



## Cthulhudrew (May 25, 2007)

CrusaderX said:
			
		

> I initially thought that Charlie's death was pointless, since he could have easily saved himself.  But if you view it as Charlie fullfilling Desmond's vision of the future (with Claire being rescued as a direct result of Charlie drowning), it makes more sense.  Charlie willingly sacrificed himself for Claire.




Except that Charlie knows that's not Penny's boat and that something strange is happening, so would he want the mystery boat to rescue her? I dunno. Your explanation is probably the best, though, because otherwise yeah why wouldn't he and Desmond have:

a) Prepped the tanks before entering the code so they'd be ready to leave at a moment's notice, and/or 

b) Just shut the door and grabbed the tanks and gotten out of there? Even if you presume they couldn't lock it from the outside, they would still have had plenty of time to get out of the hatch before it completely flooded.

That and I'm still po'd that they decided to leave Sayid, Jin, and Bernard to shoot the dynamite rather than, say, their best shooters Kate and Sawyer. Along with a couple of other able bodied men and/or women to handle the Others- surely somewhere in the 40 odd group there are some people who can at least handle themselves in a fight so that they could even out the odds against 10 admittedly armed Others. Give 'em some rocks to throw.

I did like that Hurley saved the day in his van, though.

I'm guessing that what we saw at the end will take place sometime post this episode but prior to the end of the series. At least I hope so, because if that future is the end of things, I'm really not too enthused about the rest of the series. I really don't want to see Jack turn into some depressed, suicidal alcoholic. Kind of hard to invest myself in a character that ends up that way, maybe it's just me.


----------



## Cthulhudrew (May 25, 2007)

David Howery said:
			
		

> okay, so who do you suppose the 'bad guys' on the ship are?




Given all the Las Vegas cast that are turning up on this show, maybe it's James Caan?


----------



## Banshee16 (May 25, 2007)

David Howery said:
			
		

> was the jamming station deep enough that one would get the bends swimming out of it?  If it was only deep enough that you could hold your breath and swim down to it, that isn't enough to cause the bends, is it?  It seems to me Charlie could have simply run out and jumped into the moonpool, yelling at Desmond to do the same.... no need to close off the room....




You can get the bends any time you surface too quickly after being deeper than 33'......*if you're breathing compressed air...ie. scuba tank*.  If you could get them easily just by what you can suck in and hold in your lungs, there'd be a much higher incidence of injuries among skin divers, etc.  I know I can go 25-30' down, and stay down, and come back up no problem.  I've never tried deeper simply because unless it's a pool, usually you can't see easily in deeper water, and pools don't get much deeper than 25'...at least the ones that I've seen.

Banshee


----------



## Cthulhudrew (May 25, 2007)

Remus Lupin said:
			
		

> You know what might be  interesting -- if from now on, instead of filling us in on backstory, every episode is a flashforward, that works sequentially BACKWARD from events we saw last night to the the moment that they arrive back on the mainland.




What I think is cool about this idea is how it would affect Desmond stories (presuming he still has his visions- although it is seeming as if he won't any longer, at least based on his negative response to Charlie's question). His stories could play out in the past (island) with flashes of the future or something.


----------



## Cthulhudrew (May 25, 2007)

Grymar said:
			
		

> BUT (thinking here) then why would Jack have even been on Oceanic 815?  The only reason he was on there was because of his dad's death.




Completely wild and random thought. We know that Jack went to Australia to pick up his father's dead body, and was transporting it back to the states. We know that Christian was in Sydney shortly before Oceanic 815 left on its fateful voyage. We know that Claire is Christian's illegitimate child.

What if Jack isn't Christian's biological son? What if part of the rift between the two men is that Jack learned he was adopted, or that his mother had had an affair like Christian Shepherd did? And Jack's real dad was the one whose body was being transported back to the states for burial (admittedly odd, if he was an Ozzie). Maybe Christian killed him?

Just thinking outside the box here...


----------



## Banshee16 (May 25, 2007)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> I'm guessing that what we saw at the end will take place sometime post this episode but prior to the end of the series. At least I hope so, because if that future is the end of things, I'm really not too enthused about the rest of the series. I really don't want to see Jack turn into some depressed, suicidal alcoholic. Kind of hard to invest myself in a character that ends up that way, maybe it's just me.




Unless that point is actually a midpoint in the series.  Maybe next season sees them get rescued, sees the aftermath of escaping the island, sees them find out *why* the island was important, and the series ends with them trying to find a way to get *back* to the island.

Which makes me think.  What if the island is some kind of nexus between parallel realities.  Maybe the Losties crashed in their plane, and because it was near the island, somehow they got shunted into a parallel reality where all the passengers on that plane were killed.  Maybe there are other differences in this world....like Jack's father still being alive, as an example.  And maybe some of those differences are really unpleasant for some of the characters like Jack.

Maybe they find this out, and Jack wants to return to the island, because it's the only way he can figure out to get back to their "home" reality.

This kind of theory would give a double meaning to the entire series.  Not only are they lost on an island, but they're not even in their own world anymore.

Banshee


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (May 25, 2007)

Banshee16 said:
			
		

> You can get the bends any time you surface too quickly after being deeper than 33'......*if you're breathing compressed air...ie. scuba tank*.  If you could get them easily just by what you can suck in and hold in your lungs, there'd be a much higher incidence of injuries among skin divers, etc.  I know I can go 25-30' down, and stay down, and come back up no problem.  I've never tried deeper simply because unless it's a pool, usually you can't see easily in deeper water, and pools don't get much deeper than 25'...at least the ones that I've seen.



The air in Looking Glass is compressed, though. So holding his breath and swimming up and out = ouch.


----------



## Cthulhudrew (May 25, 2007)

Droogie said:
			
		

> They must be former Dharma, just like Mikhail and Ben. I figure whoever they couldn't "convert" got gassed in the end.




I don't think Mikhail was really former Dharma- I believe he was just lying about that. Hasn't been demonstrated conclusively either way, to my knowledge (maybe if he shows up again next season we'll get some answers).

I though the said "stationed in Canada" actually, but either way, I just assumed he meant he thought they were supposed to be working there, presumably like Richard and Ethan were when they recruited Juliette.


----------



## Cthulhudrew (May 25, 2007)

A couple more thoughts (can you tell I just finally saw it):

Kind of sad to see Tom go- he was growing on me- although I did like the way he went out. I especially liked the look on Juliette's face when Sawyer said he shot Tom because "I didn't believe him." Guess Sawyer surprised her- and maybe she'll keep an eye on her tendency to not tell the truth when she's around James.

Also- why did Naomi have a picture of Penny and Desmond if that wasn't a ship sent by Penny? And why/how did the Looking Glass just happen to pick up a transmission from Penny? I'm guessing that her father must somehow be involved with the ship offshore- that picture could only have come from someone close to the couple. In fact, I thought there was only the one picture (from the flashback episode), but obviously Des had one, and there is at least one other. I can't imagine they made too many copies of it, so it had to have come from Penny- and it that means it more than likely was procured by someone close to her.


----------



## Banshee16 (May 25, 2007)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> Desmond has mentioned before that he does not see a complete picture of the future only pieces of it. I don't thing Penny was every going to land on the island. He assumed it was her because he saw someone parachute down, found a bag with a book and a picture of him and Penny, none of his visions actually showed Penny as the parachuter. He assumed it was her.




I never *got* that.  My interpretation has always been that for the parachutist to be Penny, Charlie had to die.  Because Desmond saved Charlie from getting a spear in the throat, he changed the future, and consequently, it wasn't Penny parachuting down.

Banshee


----------



## Blind Azathoth (May 25, 2007)

Banshee16 said:
			
		

> 1-The Others actually haven't really killed many survivors.  How many?  Maybe one?
> 
> 2-The survivors have killed *several* Others.  As of last night, at least 10.
> 
> ...




So far, the Others have killed only two castaways, although in both cases they "started it." Ethan kills Scott... Steve?... er, whichever one... and Goodwin snaps Nathan's neck.

On the other hand, the survivors have thus far managed to thin the ranks of the Others by seventeen, I believe. The ten in the beach party, Ethan, Goodwin, the three Ana and Eko took out their first night on the beach, a random background Other killed by Sawyer in a gunfight at the end of season 2, and Colleen.

The Others really aren't so civilized. In addition to the Dharma massacre, they also kill each other not infrequently; Juliet guns down Danny and Mikhail shoots Bea Klugh, Greta, and Bonnie (and of course presumably also kills himself, though I wouldn't be surprised to see him turn up next season with a band-aid on his chest and a hook to replace the hand the grenade blew off...).


----------



## Felon (May 25, 2007)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> I liked it. I decided before the show came on that if the 'climbing music' played, I would love the episode, and it played a lot. Y'know, the heroic travel music they have? Groovy.
> 
> However . . .



Very amusing, but I think it's been made clear that Ben doesn't want to exchange information, even with his own people.


----------



## Felon (May 25, 2007)

Grymar said:
			
		

> Well, do you think the moonpool was deeper than 66 feet?  Beyond that is the point where divers have to start planning staged ascents.  Plus there is a risk of an embolism if they tried to hold their breath on the ascent...they would have to exhale the entire way up (which isn't as easy as it sounds) or their lungs would rupture from the expanding air.  I can see Dez having the training for that from his military and sailing days, but not Charlie.



Does anyone seriously think the bends was actually on Charlie's mind at the time?

I too thought it was obvious that Charlie could have exited the room, either by door or porthole (which, when we saw him drowning, seemed pretty darn large--I guess grenades can do that sort of thing), so that made his sacrifice rather pointless.

Gretta and Bonnie were pretty hot. Wish they'd been kept around a little longer.


----------



## Taelorn76 (May 25, 2007)

Asmo said:
			
		

> From lostpedia.com, easter eggs section:
> 
> The funeral parlor Jack visits is "Hoffs/Drawlar", an anagram of "flash forward."
> 
> ...




Speaking of the funeral parlor, Haven't we seen the funeral director before? I don't know if I know him from another series or from Lost?


----------



## Grymar (May 25, 2007)

Banshee16 said:
			
		

> I meant, why didn't he swim out the window?  The pressure wouldn't be pushing water in, once the amount of air in the room had decreased, so theoretically, he could get out and swim to the surface.  He kept looking at that hole, like he was planning on swimming out it, and I was waiting for him to make a go for it.




I think the window was too small for him to fit through.



> As to the bends, would he even get the bends?  I'm no diving expert, but I thought you only get the bends from compressed air in scuba tanks etc.  Unless breathing air in a sub-surface habitat, and then trying to swim to the surface would simply cause the same problem.
> 
> Banshee




This is getting off of the topic here, but if the Looking Glass was sealed like a sub then you may be right.  But the existence of the moonpool means that they would have to increase the air pressure in the base to compensate to the increase of water pressure (which increases by 1 atmosphere every 33 feet you descend).  So assuming the moonpool was more than 66 feet deep, which is hard to say, then the air pressure in the Looking Glass would have to be at least 3 atmospheres...right at the limit of a direct ascent without fear of getting the bends.


----------



## Hand of Evil (May 25, 2007)

OFF-TOPIC 

Dive table stuff, okay it has been a while and I don't have my charts, hell if I remmber the math any way; it is all based on the amout of time his is down, he only has to be concerned in an hour at 60 feet (that I remember), then he will have to come up slow, no faster than his own bubbles but should not have to worry about the bends.  The greater the depth, the shorter the time to stay down and the longer you can't go back down.  

So, if Charlie was down 2+ hours somewhere at 60 (I don't think it was that deep, I think 30 or less), he would have to come up at a rule of thumb rate of 2 minutes every 15 feet, taking 8 minutes for decompression stops, to get to the surface to have no chance of the bends, he could risk it.   

Now, if the station was like a diving bell, pumping and venting fresh air into it and not using compressed air, I don't think there is that big of a problem, it is like being at the surface but we don't know if that is the case.  

Don't shoot me is my math is wrong, it has been a LONG time.


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## Cthulhudrew (May 25, 2007)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> Speaking of the funeral parlor, Haven't we seen the funeral director before? I don't know if I know him from another series or from Lost?




I thought he looked familiar, too, but it doesn't look like the actor (Nigel Gibbs) has been in Lost previously.


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## Cthulhudrew (May 25, 2007)

On the topic of the bends, my neighbor who is pretty hardcore into diving these days has been on the issue ever since Charlie first went down into the Looking Glass, and seems to think that it definitely would be a real danger in this situation. 

That said- like Felon points out- I seriously doubt Charlie's last thoughts were- "Dang! I'd better shut this door and trap myself in here so that Desmond and I won't get the bends trying to escape!"

None of which addresses the matter of- even with the flooding and potentially non-lockable door, the interior of the hatch was large enough that the two men would still have had plenty of time to get the scuba gear Desmond had been preparing, and get out properly. It was a pretty pointless and silly death scene, even if it was kind of dramatically cool (the video from Penny, the handwriting).

There was a quote by Harlan Ellison that I read yesterday to the effect that story writers these days have learned their craft too much from watching television and lack a genuine grasp of structure and pacing, with the result that the dramatic (or melodramatic) often rules over realistic behavior and common sense- things are shoehorned to fit the way the author wants them to play out rather than the author following them through to their logical conclusion. Ellison was specifically referring to comicbooks, and put it much more succinctly than I just did, but I think that's very much applicable to shows like Lost in general, and this episode in particular (even more apt when you consider that at least a couple of Lost's writers are comic writers themselves).

I really like the show, don't get me wrong, I just get tired of seeing good characters get written into inappropriate situations because the writers need to reach a particular beat and can't do it organically. (Going all the way back to an earlier- and ongoing- comment about the characters never talking to one another.)


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## occam (May 25, 2007)

Asmo said:
			
		

> The newspaper clipping Jack holds appears to contain information about a man from New York, who died after 4 a.m. in "The Tower" on Grand Avenue in downtown Los Angeles. The man's first name appears to begin with a J, with his surname possibly ending in "antham."




Jeremy Bentham? Fits with the other characters named after philosophers of the era. In fact, check out the first name listed under "Influences" on that Wikipedia page.


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## DonTadow (May 25, 2007)

I think its pretty safe to say that if charlie wanted to get out he would have gotten out.   So why all the debate about what she should have or could have done to get out. 

It's one of two things, the writers decided to screw up the whole episode by having htis crazy death scene or
Charlie wanted to die. He prepared himself to die.  He had prepared himself hte last episode. Charlie's logic is that the dreams are a. b. c and if a doesn't happen c won't happen.  As far as charlie knows, this has been true so far.  The only time desmond's vision didn't come true, was the time desmond saved charlie.  

Look at that scene. Charlie was not trying to escape, even before the hatch. He was getting himself ready to die.


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## Cthulhudrew (May 25, 2007)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> Look at that scene. Charlie was not trying to escape, even before the hatch. He was getting himself ready to die.




I think he was prepared to die, certainly, but by the end of the episode, up until the point where Mikhail showed up again, it looked more like he believed he was no longer going to do so.


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## Sir Brennen (May 25, 2007)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> Look at that scene. Charlie was not trying to escape, even before the hatch. He was getting himself ready to die.



Totally agree. When they had the code I think there was a moment he thought his destiny was once again thwarted, but when he saw Mikhail at the porthole with the grenade, I'm sure he thought "So, this is it." He was already prepared to die. He wasn't thinking about trying to get out of it.  He did have the presence of mind to prevent Des from dying with him when he closed the hatch. Then, as a realistic afterthought "Oh, crap! I need to tell him about the boat!"

While I agree with Mr. Harlan's assessment about a lot of writing today, and even applied to many events on Lost, I don't think this was one of those moments. The major complaint seems to be "That was stupid! That's not what I would do!" when the real question is, what would _*Charlie*_ do, given what went on before, his current state of mind and beliefs. And the writers stayed true to that.

Learn to have a little empathy, people


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## BraveSirRobin (May 25, 2007)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> I think he was prepared to die, certainly, but by the end of the episode, up until the point where Mikhail showed up again, it looked more like he believed he was no longer going to do so.





Because it hadn't flooded.  Once it started to flood he did what he felt he had to do.  

I was actually understanding of Charlie's death and glad that it happened.  After all the build up of Desmonds foresight, it would have been silly if they let him escape.  The only wierd thing was that the vision was almost self fullfuling.  If he hadn't been told about the dreams needing to be carried out as seen, he might have made a greater attempt at escaping.  Then again, if he hadn't prepared himself for death, he might not have been as courageous in the situation.

The whole affair was heroic tragedy.


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## Cutter XXIII (May 25, 2007)

I believe Mikhail said to the Looking Glass Ladies, "Ben told us you were on assignment in Canada."

Penny *was* on the island in Desmond's vision (for about as long as Jacob was onscreen); after Charlie failed to die it ended up being Naomi. Screencap So, yeah, that's why Charlie had to drown (or at least believed he did); so Claire and Aaron would get into a helicopter and be rescued.

The moon pool was 70 meters down, according to Sayid's schematic from the Flame. Screencap


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## Taelorn76 (May 25, 2007)

I understand Charlie's death and can see why he did it. My gripe is completely selfish, because I liked Charlie's character and I didn't want to see him die. I wish he had made an attempt to escape, but his death was well done and fit the character and story.


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## Hand of Evil (May 25, 2007)

Cutter XXIII said:
			
		

> The moon pool was 70 meters down, according to Sayid's schematic from the Flame. Screencap



200+ Feet!  That is hard to buy, maybe 7.5 meters.


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## Taelorn76 (May 25, 2007)

Cutter XXIII said:
			
		

> I believe Mikhail said to the Looking Glass Ladies, "Ben told us you were on assignment in Canada."
> 
> Penny *was* on the island in Desmond's vision (for about as long as Jacob was onscreen); after Charlie failed to die it ended up being Naomi. Screencap So, yeah, that's why Charlie had to drown (or at least believed he did); so Claire and Aaron would get into a helicopter and be rescued.
> 
> The moon pool was 70 meters down, according to Sayid's schematic from the Flame. Screencap




Well aren't you just the fountain of screencap info


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## Cutter XXIII (May 25, 2007)

Captain Screencap, that's me.


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## Cthulhudrew (May 25, 2007)

Cutter XXIII said:
			
		

> The moon pool was 70 meters down, according to Sayid's schematic from the Flame. Screencap




Charlie and Desmond both held their breath for a dive of over 200 feet! Holy Shmokes! Charlie's probably going to take a long time to drown, then.


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## Atavar (May 25, 2007)

According to some discussions I heard that obituary/article Jack had referred to the death of a man named Jeremy Bentham, from New York, by suicide by hanging.

Another piece of speculation: The woman Jack saved after the crash was Juliet's sister, and that little boy was Juliet's nephew.

Charlie's doing the sign of the cross right before he died seemed especially appropriate for a former alter boy.

Finally, does Charlie's own visions of having to Baptize Turnip-head make any more sense at this point then when he first had them?

Later,

Atavar


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## Cutter XXIII (May 25, 2007)

I've got a screencap for that news clipping.   

Likely Translation: "Los Angeles, Man found dead in downtown loft [unreadable], The body of Ja [could be Jo].. [unreadable] ..antham of New York was discovered shortly after 4 a.m. in the.. [unreadable] of Grand Avenue. Ted.. [unreadable] ..man at The Tower.. [unreadable] .. heard loud noises.. [unreadable]..m's loft. Co.. [unreadable] ..entered the.. [unreadable] ..a beam in the.. [unreadable] ..[ac]cordin[g].. [unreadable].."

I suspect it's *Jacob* in the coffin. We've got three seasons to find out how the heck that could be.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (May 25, 2007)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> Charlie and Desmond both held their breath for a dive of over 200 feet! Holy Shmokes! Charlie's probably going to take a long time to drown, then.



Heck, he's probably still alive, two days after the episode aired.


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## Banshee16 (May 25, 2007)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> Charlie and Desmond both held their breath for a dive of over 200 feet! Holy Shmokes! Charlie's probably going to take a long time to drown, then.




Well, it depends on physical fitness level.  When I was a lifeguard, I *used* to be able to swim 50m underwater, on one breath......and I knew several guards who were better swimmers than I....so going 200' feet is not inconceivable.  But I really don't think that base was 200' down.  Of course, were Charlie and Desmond in that kind of physical shape?

Banshee


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## Hand of Evil (May 25, 2007)

Banshee16 said:
			
		

> Well, it depends on physical fitness level.  When I was a lifeguard, I *used* to be able to swim 50m underwater, on one breath......and I knew several guards who were better swimmers than I....so going 200' feet is not inconceivable.  But I really don't think that base was 200' down.  Of course, were Charlie and Desmond in that kind of physical shape?
> 
> Banshee



two hundred feet underwater is not the same as depth, each atmosphere crossed is like a barrier to the human body, at 50 meters, trained free divers say the lungs are the size of a fist, people pass out then.  The record is 200 meters but that is with a sled moving at 3m+/s.


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## BraveSirRobin (May 25, 2007)

Cutter XXIII said:
			
		

> I've got a screencap for that news clipping.
> 
> Likely Translation: "Los Angeles, Man found dead in downtown loft [unreadable], The body of Ja [could be Jo].. [unreadable] ..antham of New York was discovered shortly after 4 a.m. in the.. [unreadable] of Grand Avenue. Ted.. [unreadable] ..man at The Tower.. [unreadable] .. heard loud noises.. [unreadable]..m's loft. Co.. [unreadable] ..entered the.. [unreadable] ..a beam in the.. [unreadable] ..[ac]cordin[g].. [unreadable].."
> 
> I suspect it's *Jacob* in the coffin. We've got three seasons to find out how the heck that could be.




You wouldn't happen to have a screencap from when the stewerdess first gave him the newspaper do you?  That seemed to have a better view of the article.  At the very least it might give you a different view and an opportunity to fill in some blanks.


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## Cthulhudrew (May 25, 2007)

Banshee16 said:
			
		

> Of course, were Charlie and Desmond in that kind of physical shape?




He's a recently recovering heroin addict. I'd guess probably not. (Desmond, on the other hand, I could buy- he was in intensive training before going to the island, and we saw him still working out regularly in the hatch.)


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## David Howery (May 25, 2007)

one question I haven't seen asked on here yet... just why in the hell was it Penny, of all people, who just happened to pop up on that communications system after Charlie shut down the jamming?  Why would she have been watching that specific channel?


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## Mark CMG (May 26, 2007)

Cutter XXIII said:
			
		

> I've got a screencap for that news clipping.
> 
> Likely Translation: "Los Angeles, Man found dead in downtown loft [unreadable], The body of Ja [could be Jo].. [unreadable] ..antham of New York was discovered shortly after 4 a.m. in the.. [unreadable] of Grand Avenue. Ted.. [unreadable] ..man at The Tower.. [unreadable] .. heard loud noises.. [unreadable]..m's loft. Co.. [unreadable] ..entered the.. [unreadable] ..a beam in the.. [unreadable] ..[ac]cordin[g].. [unreadable].."
> 
> I suspect it's *Jacob* in the coffin. We've got three seasons to find out how the heck that could be.






What is James's (Sawyer's) last name?  I guess it is Ford if that is truly his name.


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## bodhi (May 26, 2007)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> Ellison was specifically referring to comicbooks, and put it much more succinctly than I just did,



Since it was Ellison, I'm guessing it was something like "Comic book writing is crap!".


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## Cthulhudrew (May 26, 2007)

David Howery said:
			
		

> one question I haven't seen asked on here yet... just why in the hell was it Penny, of all people, who just happened to pop up on that communications system after Charlie shut down the jamming?




I actually asked that back on page 3, but yeah, does anyone else have any thoughts on the matter?


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## Felon (May 26, 2007)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> There was a quote by Harlan Ellison that I read yesterday to the effect that story writers these days have learned their craft too much from watching television and lack a genuine grasp of structure and pacing, with the result that the dramatic (or melodramatic) often rules over realistic behavior and common sense- things are shoehorned to fit the way the author wants them to play out rather than the author following them through to their logical conclusion. Ellison was specifically referring to comicbooks, and put it much more succinctly than I just did, but I think that's very much applicable to shows like Lost in general, and this episode in particular (even more apt when you consider that at least a couple of Lost's writers are comic writers themselves).



Love'im or loathe'im Ellison's your typical writer-turned-egotistical-blowhard by the rapt attention of devoted fans. Everything his says she'd be imbibed with a small amount of sodium.


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## BlueBlackRed (May 26, 2007)

I think the guy in the coffin was Michael.

- He betrayed everyone on the island for his son. So no friends there.
- He has no family other than Walt, who I'm betting either stayed on the island or died.
- The area the funeral was in was not exactly a place where most other Losties would reside.

Nothing ironclad, and I'm sure someone will point out something small that shoots it down, but for now it has the right feel to it.


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## Welverin (May 26, 2007)

The thing that got me with the viewing, was who paid for and wouldn't even bother showing up?

Jack was the only person who went to it, and since he only found out about it from the newspaper he certainly didn't pay for anything. So who cared enough to pay for a casket, viewing , and funeral, but not enough to be there for any of it?


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## Demmero (May 26, 2007)

BlueBlackRed said:
			
		

> I think the guy in the coffin was Michael.
> 
> - He betrayed everyone on the island for his son. So no friends there.
> - He has no family other than Walt, who I'm betting either stayed on the island or died.
> ...




Yeah, that does feel right, except for one thing....
If Michael and/or Walt made it back to civilization, then Naomi's likely flat-out lying about the remains of Flight 815 and its passengers being found.


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## bodhi (May 26, 2007)

Welverin said:
			
		

> The thing that got me with the viewing, was who paid for and wouldn't even bother showing up?



Maybe the guy in the casket paid for it, ahead of time.


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## BlueBlackRed (May 26, 2007)

Demmero said:
			
		

> Yeah, that does feel right, except for one thing....
> If Michael and/or Walt made it back to civilization, then Naomi's likely flat-out lying about the remains of Flight 815 and its passengers being found.



I never saw Michael and Walt make it back to civilization. I just saw them get on a boat and the direction that Ben told them to go.
And Ben never lies.


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## Welverin (May 26, 2007)

Demmero said:
			
		

> Yeah, that does feel right, except for one thing....
> If Michael and/or Walt made it back to civilization, then Naomi's likely flat-out lying about the remains of Flight 815 and its passengers being found.




Yes, why hasn't there been more doubting what she says?



			
				bodhi said:
			
		

> Maybe the guy in the casket paid for it, ahead of time.




Yeah, maybe. Seemed really odd at the time though.


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## Mark CMG (May 26, 2007)

Welverin said:
			
		

> Yes, why hasn't there been more doubting what she says?





She has a phone and is willing to let them use it.  Despite the reports that she says exist about the demise of the flight and its passengers, she is not trying to convince them of their validity and even agrees that there must be some other explanation for those reports.  I think the Lostaways are just as likely to believe the supposed wreckage is a trick of the others.


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## Welverin (May 26, 2007)

I was thinking more of us, hadn't really consider the gullible isle suckers.


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## Mark CMG (May 26, 2007)

Welverin said:
			
		

> I was thinking more of us, hadn't really consider the gullible isle suckers.





I see.  I suppose now that the Lostaways are typically skeptical, if they do not question something fiercely, the audience is less likely to do so, as well.  Personally, I have thought she was an Other from the start but now I wonder if she isn't part of some other organization, like a Dharma spy come to check on things.


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## Cutter XXIII (May 26, 2007)

David Howery said:
			
		

> one question I haven't seen asked on here yet... just why in the hell was it Penny, of all people, who just happened to pop up on that communications system after Charlie shut down the jamming?  Why would she have been watching that specific channel?




My take on that is that the guys in the Arctic listening station at the end of season 2 were working for Penny. They told her the coordinates from which the magnetic anomaly had emanated. From then on, she'd been directing satellite communications toward that particular area and getting no response...until Charlie flipped the switch.

Now...how Penny and whoever's on those boats knows that Desmond and the anomaly are in the same spot is anyone's guess (mine is that Penny's dad, Charles Widmore, spied on his daughter for the anomaly's location and sent the freighter--that would also explain how they are in possession of a copy of Penny's photo with Desmond).


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## coyote6 (May 30, 2007)

Maybe Penny's dad is part of the Dharma Initiative. 

Anybody know when Ben murdered all the Dharma people? Was it before or after Desmond washed up on the island in 2001? 

Either way, when Ben & co. killed off Dharma, I think they had a few other Dharma people who turned their coat and/or cut deals to survive -- among them, Mikhail & Clancy Brown's character. Clancy was stationed at the hatch (Ben and his dad went there to drop off the beer), and allowed to stay, because the button has to be pressed. Desmond was either already there (though why was Clancy lying to him before the attack?), or washes up later, and they just lie to him to keep him there without having to kill him. 

Mikhail gets left at the satellite uplink, either to keep feeding Dharma fake info ("Yeah, everything's fine here. We're all fine. How are you?" Except they're better liars than Han), or to talk to some allies (a faction amongst the Initiative?). They certainly still have sources in the outside world; witness the videotape & files on the survivors.

Then the button doesn't get pressed, and the Anomaly starts to go off, bringing down 815 before the override is activated. Lucky for Ben, what with his spinal problems and all.

Then the button doesn't get pressed at all, and the Anomaly _really_ goes off. Now Dharma totally loses contact with the island, and they begin searching for the island. (Or, if Dharma wasn't being strung along by Ben & co., now they suddenly have a fix on the island's general location.) Except they need a constant beacon from the island to really pinpoint it, and Ben is either jamming whatever beacon was there, or the anomaly blew it away. So they can't pinpoint the island, though they are in the neighborhood.

One of their pilots stumbles into the island, and manages to survive. She has a picture of Desmond & Penny -- because Dharma knows he was on the island, ? Maybe Penny's dad is part of the Initiative, and gave 'em the picture. Maybe she was _expected_ to crash, due to the island's effects; ergo the slightly unusual (AFAIK) sight of a helicopter pilot with a parachute.


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## Taelorn76 (May 30, 2007)

coyote6 said:
			
		

> Maybe Penny's dad is part of the Dharma Initiative.
> 
> Anybody know when Ben murdered all the Dharma people? Was it before or after Desmond washed up on the island in 2001?




Ben killed off the Dharma people way before Desmond washed up on shore. IIRC he was turning twenty something that day


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## Mark CMG (May 30, 2007)

coyote6 said:
			
		

> Except they're better liars than Han





 Funny.


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## Gab (May 30, 2007)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> Ben killed off the Dharma people way before Desmond washed up on shore. IIRC he was turning twenty something that day




I thought Ben said, near the end when he was talking to Jack, "not too long ago, " I killed the Darma people. I thought he meant maybe a couple of years before.


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## BlueBlackRed (May 30, 2007)

Gab said:
			
		

> I thought Ben said, near the end when he was talking to Jack, "not too long ago, " I killed the Darma people. I thought he meant maybe a couple of years before.



At least long enough for a "Work Man" To decay to a dried out skeleton.


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## James Heard (May 31, 2007)

Y'know, it just occurred to me...

Charlie still might be alive. Not because he's some super-swimmer or he can dislocate his shoulders at will or anything, but simply because Desmond lived in the face of certain death while destroying one of the stations too. He comes back "from the dead" or whatever happens to people who turn things off in a permanent fashion on the island, and he can see _Desmond_ dying, or maybe he sees the future for everyone, and given his history with Locke he's in a position for some sort of conversation of ye mystic-ish Losties with him. 

Until I find out Dominic Monaghan's been arrested for drunk driving I think it's possible he's coming back with Desmond's mojo.


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## The Grumpy Celt (May 31, 2007)

I wonder if there is a coherant timeline somewhere, with dates for the arrival of the Dharma people, the "incident," the arrival of Roussiou's boat, the death of the Dharma people, etc. 

For that matter, who still don't know what the incident was or why the Others left the Swan Station alone.

I bet you a bucket of beach sand Charlie is well and truely dead. It was his destiny to die a stupid death. Like Kara Thrace. At least she came back. But Charlie won't.


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## David Howery (Jun 1, 2007)

BlueBlackRed said:
			
		

> At least long enough for a "Work Man" To decay to a dried out skeleton.



in the tropics, that actually happens pretty fast....


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## Mark CMG (Jun 1, 2007)

David Howery said:
			
		

> in the tropics, that actually happens pretty fast....





I suppose the insects would clean the bones fairly quickly.


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## Cutter XXIII (Jun 1, 2007)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> I wonder if there is a coherant timeline somewhere, with dates for the arrival of the Dharma people, the "incident," the arrival of Roussiou's boat, the death of the Dharma people, etc.
> 
> For that matter, who still don't know what the incident was or why the Others left the Swan Station alone.




My theory is that they didn't know about the Swan station. Only Ben could have told them about it, and he was just a janitor, like his old man. This would explain why Kelvin was still taking precautions against "Hostiles" years after the purge, and why Ben seemed to think the Swan station was "a joke." If it had been like all the other stations, yes, it would have been a joke. Only it wasn't...

Lostpedia maintains a timeline that includes sources for all the entries.


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## Krug (Jun 5, 2007)

Have watched up to Episode 14, and still making me roll my eyes. The black cloud thing is just huh. Basically it makes it seem the writers can do anything they want, and the whole series loses its grounding.

I also think the whole flashback thing is getting pretty tired, especially since it seems to focus on the same few characters. Is there anything really new to learn from them anymore?


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## Krug (Jun 5, 2007)

Finished the series. I don't know about the last ep and the flash forward. Didn't quite work for me. And the Losties turning into a bunch of bloodthirsty killers seems desperate. The series has taken a very dark turn, and I'm not sure can last the four more seasons that's been planned.


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## Asmo (Jun 5, 2007)

Krug said:
			
		

> Finished the series. I don't know about the last ep and the flash forward. Didn't quite work for me. And the Losties turning into a bunch of bloodthirsty killers seems desperate. The series has taken a very dark turn, and I'm not sure can last the four more seasons that's been planned.




It´s 3 more seasons,more information can be found here:

"In May 2007 it was announced that Lost will continue for a fourth, fifth, and sixth year, concluding with the 117th produced episode in May 2010. These three final seasons will consist of 16 episodes each, running weekly in the spring uninterrupted by repeats.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_(TV_series)

Asmo


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