# Final Fantasy XII sucks. Period. Fact.



## Gladius Legis (Jun 10, 2008)

- No character development. Half the characters make you wonder why they're even tagging along. The other half are just boring or ripoffs of Star Wars characters.

- Sparse to no story, and what little story there is, which is a Star Wars ripoff minus any plot movement, it doesn't bother to tell it. I wasn't fond of the stories from some past FF games (namely FFVIII) but at least those games bothered to tell them. FFXII moves on like it knows it has no substance and is trying to be dishonest about it.

- I was expecting License Grid to be a refinement of FFX's excellent Sphere Grid. What I got was a system that was even more abuseable and broken and made characters even more samey than FFVII's Materia and FFVIII's Junction.


----------



## Blackrat (Jun 11, 2008)

Kinda haf'ta agree with you here. I really didn't like the game as much I'd have wanted to. Unfortunatily, the last one I really enjoyed was IX, though as a big fan I had to buy the later ones too. I'm not sure I'll pick up 13 anymore .


----------



## frankthedm (Jun 12, 2008)

The more I found out about 12, the less I wanted to play it.

http://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=215 was the coffin nail

FFX   I played for a while, but I did not think it was a great game. SOOO P.O.ed when FFX-2 replaced Lulu with Payne it went on my 'never play' list.

FF9 was alright, though the load times before battles wore out my patience.

FF8's 'Your random enemies gain levels because you did' pissed me off. Not a fan of the draw magic system either.

I put my 99+ hours into FF7 seven and had fun doing so, but i won't disagree with some of it's detractors.


----------



## Wereserpent (Jun 12, 2008)

I never got to play FFXII.  Guess I am not missing much.

I am on and off again playing FFVI.  The sheer amount of level grinding I have to do makes me abandon it for stretches of time though.


----------



## Orius (Jun 13, 2008)

Whatever.  I still want to play it.  I haven't played a game in the series yet that I actively hated.


----------



## drothgery (Jun 13, 2008)

Eh. I liked it. The characters were kind of flat (especially Vann and Penelo, but I didn't use them much), but the game played pretty well, and the world was interesting.


----------



## Alzrius (Jun 13, 2008)

But...but it has bunnygirls! How can anyone hate anything with bunnygirls?


----------



## DonTadow (Jun 13, 2008)

I have to agree with you too.  It's not the worst one, that title goes to 8, but it was the most boring one.  I really felt like i was at a job when i played it.  I never got into any of the characters, I can't even remember their names.  

Thats sad too because I really liked the gameplay.  And with the look of 13 it appears that 12 will be the last ff i ever play.  I hope they import that enternal game to the ps3.  It seems like its closer to the original final fantasys.


----------



## drothgery (Jun 13, 2008)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> Thats sad too because I really liked the gameplay.  And with the look of 13 it appears that 12 will be the last ff i ever play.  I hope they import that enternal game to the ps3.  It seems like its closer to the original final fantasys.




The closest thing to the PS1 FF games (no non-portable game looks much like the NES and SNES games) that I've seen in a long time was _Lost Odyssey_ on Xbox 360, actually.


----------



## John Crichton (Jun 13, 2008)

Gladius Legis said:
			
		

> - No character development. Half the characters make you wonder why they're even tagging along. The other half are just boring or ripoffs of Star Wars characters.



You act as if any of the characters from Star Wars were original to begin with.  



			
				Gladius Legis said:
			
		

> - Sparse to no story, and what little story there is, which is a Star Wars ripoff minus any plot movement, it doesn't bother to tell it. I wasn't fond of the stories from some past FF games (namely FFVIII) but at least those games bothered to tell them. FFXII moves on like it knows it has no substance and is trying to be dishonest about it.



One may wonder why you are even playing a FF game considering how much you hate other games from the franchise.



			
				Gladius Legis said:
			
		

> - I was expecting License Grid to be a refinement of FFX's excellent Sphere Grid. What I got was a system that was even more abuseable and broken and made characters even more samey than FFVII's Materia and FFVIII's Junction.



Sounds like you had some expectations that were unrealistic.


----------



## TwinBahamut (Jun 14, 2008)

Orius said:
			
		

> Whatever.  I still want to play it.  I haven't played a game in the series yet that I actively hated.



I didn't either until I played Final Fantasy 12.

I will echo the sentiment that FF12 was a terrible game. Far beyond any system nitpicks, minor gripes, or personal dislikes based on my love of the FFT Ivalice, that I could dish out, the gameplay was simply boring and the plot was bad. Note that when I say plot is bad, I don't mean the story as a whole has some flaws, I mean the bare bones "this is who the characters are and this is what they are doing" is mortally flawed at its core for the game. If you add on the fact that the gameplay is essentially little more than an endless level/money grind in open areas with no interesting structure or plot, then you get a lousy game. It doesn't even rate as a lousy game by Final Fantasy standards (like Final Fantasy 2 or 3), it is just a lousy game.

I honestly can't think of a single redeeming feature of interesting innovation in the game... Well, the Gambit system is an interesting way of controlling AI, but the result of that one is less satisfying then things like Persona 3's ally AI, so I don't like it very much.

The whole thing makes me wish for the days of the superb SNES Final Fantasy games and the fun of FF7 and the creativity of FF8, as well as the awesomeness of Final Fantasy Tactics.


----------



## Orius (Jun 14, 2008)

Whatever, I'll still try it anyway.

If I've learned anything about the series, it's that there are far more opinions on every entry in the series than number of games in the series.  Including spin-offs, sequels and side games.  Hell, even including Advent Children just for the hell of it.

I started with the original game, then moved up to FFVII.  After that, I started learning about the game from thhe internet, and encountering opinions on the series.

People complained about how bad FFVIII's Junction system and GFs were.  I still enjoyed the game.

People complained about how FFIX was too old-school, or the graphics sucked, or they didn't like Zidane or whatever.  I still enjoyed the game.

I played FFII and FFIII through emulation, and I enjoyed them.  

People complained about Tidus, or blitzball or any other aspect of FFX.  I still enjoyed the game.

Peple complained about how FFX-2 was girly, or how it ruined FFX or something else.  I still enjoyed the game.

So really, I haven't lost faith in FF's ability to entertain me yet.  Maybe FFXII will change that.  But I'm willing to learn for myself.  I've learned my own experiences with the games are the only way I can judge them for myself.


----------



## Bront (Jun 14, 2008)

Interesting.  Final Fantasy XII: Revanant Wings has been fairly enjoyable so far, and it features Vann and Penelo.

FFVIII turned me off the series, well, that and not having a system that could play it anyway.


----------



## Vigilance (Jun 14, 2008)

I thought XII was quite enjoyable.

But then, FF X is my favorite of the series, far superior to VII imo (I know, heresy).


----------



## WhatGravitas (Jun 14, 2008)

Vigilance said:
			
		

> But then, FF X is my favorite of the series, far superior to VII imo (I know, heresy).



You're not alone, though VII was much better when it came out - it just aged worse than X.

Cheers, LT.


----------



## Gladius Legis (Jun 15, 2008)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> You act as if any of the characters from Star Wars were original to begin with.



Which makes it even more sad that FFXII had to ripoff Star Wars characters.



> One may wonder why you are even playing a FF game considering how much you hate other games from the franchise.



I liked FFVI and FFX and loved FF Tactics. The main man behind FFXII was the same guy behind FF Tactics ... until he took leave of the project. Unfortunately the people who tried to fill in his blanks didn't do a very good job of it.



> Sounds like you had some expectations that were unrealistic.



Uh, no. The pre-release info I read about the License Board did read a lot like a more refined Sphere Grid. Except what happened is that it became far more easily and quickly abuseable, with absolutely no character individuality.


----------



## John Crichton (Jun 15, 2008)

Vigilance said:
			
		

> I thought XII was quite enjoyable.
> 
> But then, FF X is my favorite of the series, far superior to VII imo (I know, heresy).



There are plenty of folks, myself included, who liked X more than VII.  VII is just more iconic than any other FF game.


----------



## John Crichton (Jun 15, 2008)

Gladius Legis said:
			
		

> Which makes it even more sad that FFXII had to ripoff Star Wars characters.



My point was cloaked, evidently.  You say they ripped off Star Wars characters, I say they played to literary type, which happens all the time in games and certainly in the FF series.



			
				Gladius Legis said:
			
		

> Uh, no. The pre-release info I read about the License Board did read a lot like a more refined Sphere Grid. Except what happened is that it became far more easily and quickly abuseable, with absolutely no character individuality.



It sounds like you had some expectations that were attached to another system that you enjoyed.  It's not the game's fault that you did that.  The FF series rarely has advancement systems that carry over from game to game, especially the last 5 games.


----------



## drothgery (Jun 15, 2008)

Gladius Legis said:
			
		

> Uh, no. The pre-release info I read about the License Board did read a lot like a more refined Sphere Grid. Except what happened is that it became far more easily and quickly abuseable, with absolutely no character individuality.




I guess you could do that if you wanted, or if you spent a lot of time grinding, but at least for me, there wasn't a huge amount of PC overlap until very late in the game. Early in the game they were very distinct (especially Penelo, who I turned into a dedicated caster upon getting her back because I'd sold off all my extra equipment so she needed decent attacks, and I was a bit underleveled, so I needed her to be effective in the first boss fight after I got her back ...)


----------



## John Crichton (Jun 15, 2008)

drothgery said:
			
		

> I guess you could do that if you wanted, or if you spent a lot of time grinding, but at least for me, there wasn't a huge amount of PC overlap until very late in the game. Early in the game they were very distinct (especially Penelo, who I turned into a dedicated caster upon getting her back because I'd sold off all my extra equipment so she needed decent attacks, and I was a bit underleveled, so I needed her to be effective in the first boss fight after I got her back ...)



 I thought that was a good thing about the system: it allowed you to make each character into whatever the heck you wanted with very little pigeonholing.


----------



## Deuce Traveler (Jun 17, 2008)

I just didn't like the fact that the other characters were way cooler than the main one that I was supposed to relate to.


----------



## drothgery (Jun 17, 2008)

Deuce Traveler said:
			
		

> I just didn't like the fact that the other characters were way cooler than the main one that I was supposed to relate to.




Since this has been true of pretty much every FF game (except possibly the NES games and 3US/6J, where there wasn't a clear main character), and you weren't ever forced to use Vaan after you had 4+ PCs available (I kept expecting a classic FF forced party split, which was the main reason I kept my PCs at relativley equal levels for most of the game, but it never happened), not seeing this as a problem.


----------



## Mallus (Jun 17, 2008)

Deuce Traveler said:
			
		

> I just didn't like the fact that the other characters were way cooler than the main one that I was supposed to relate to.



So it *is* Star Wars!


----------



## Amellia (Jun 17, 2008)

WHAT. Are you kidding? FF12 was amazing. The gameplay was fantastic, the graphics were breathtaking, and there were subtleties involved in the characters and storyline that, apparently, escaped people expecting things to hit you over the head like they did in 8 or 10. (I won't say 7, because I may be tracked down and murdered -- and besides, I liked 7.)

Balthier remains one of my favorite game characters ever. Right up there with Vincent, and Roxas.

This makes me sad -- in my opinion, FF12 is one of the best.


----------



## Grog (Jun 18, 2008)

I, too, really enjoyed FF 12. Probably my favorite since 6 (3 US). I could have used some more variety in the combat (offensive spells were almost never worth the trouble to use, in my opinion, except for on a couple of bosses), but overall it was a highly enjoyable game. I loved the huge number of optional dungeons to explore and quests to complete - it was almost like getting a complete second game under the surface of the first.


----------



## Vigilance (Jun 18, 2008)

Deuce Traveler said:
			
		

> I just didn't like the fact that the other characters were way cooler than the main one that I was supposed to relate to.




See, I liked this.

Vaan is a peasant kid caught up in the affairs of state. Of course the story wasn't about him.

I liked that they didn't feel compelled to give him some enormous power mysterious power to save the day, or discover that he was a noble's illegitimate son or something cheap like that.

They didn't try and force Vaan into being the MAIN character because he was the character you had in your party through the entire game.

And as others have said, other FF games were like this. In FF X for example, Auron, Lulu and Wakka are all WAY cooler (like, by several orders of magnitude) than the "main" characters of Yuna and Tidus.


----------



## Arnwyn (Jun 18, 2008)

drothgery said:
			
		

> Since this has been true of pretty much every FF game



Totally agree.

Lulu? Hell yeah.
Quistis? That's what I'm talking about.
Tifa & Aerith? Hoo-boy.
Rydia/Yang/Kain/pick one? For sure.

I expect nothing less from FFXII.


----------



## Amellia (Jun 18, 2008)

Vigilance said:
			
		

> See, I liked this.
> 
> Vaan is a peasant kid caught up in the affairs of state. Of course the story wasn't about him.
> 
> ...





I really liked this too. It's like they stepped back and said "We -always- have some ordinary guy turning out to have some specific purpose to save the day, or have all the spunk/etc. needed to turn into the hero." And they decided they would change their formula. I loooved that. He was just an ordinary guy that gets caught up in something bigger than he is -- and honestly, who isn't, in that situation?


----------



## TwinBahamut (Jun 19, 2008)

Vigilance said:
			
		

> See, I liked this.
> 
> Vaan is a peasant kid caught up in the affairs of state. Of course the story wasn't about him.
> 
> ...



I don't agree with this reasoning at all.

The problem with Vaan (and Panelo) is that they don't even really have a reason to be there. There was absolutely no reason they couldn't have just made Ashe, Balthier, or Basch the main character. In fact, the young imperial prince, Larsa, would have been a pretty good main character. FF12 is the story of those characters, and Vaan is completely insignificant.

If FF12 actually did something interesting like tell the story from Vaan's perspective and have him be a witness to the events (like Tidus in FF10), or maybe just a "voice of the common man" for the other characters, then he might be tolerable, but nothing like that happened. Vaan was completely ignored by what little plot even existed, and in most of the game's cut-scenes he is just left off-screen. If even the game designers don't care about Vaan's existence, why should I?

All the good characters of past FF games, or even the bad ones, at least had _some_ justification for being the main hero.

FF4: Cecil is one of the great characters. The story is about his inner conflict, redemption, and brave battle to try to save the world. FF4 is Cecil's story, and can not be described any other way. Every other character is only there because he brought them together.

FF1, FF3, FF5: The heros are the chosen ones. it is simplistic, but it works for games that are based on battles against such clear-cut forces of evil. FF5 worked well to give additional motivation to each character. Ultimately, these are stories about people who chose to step up and fight evil, which works.

FF6: There is no central character, just a central quest. If FF12 ditched Vaan and told its story this way (maybe with a revival of the scenario system), then it would have worked at least a little better.

FF7: Cloud is unquestionably central to the story, and it would not be the same without Cloud's conflicted identity and personal battle against Sephiroth.

FF8: This one has the opposite problem of FF12, actually. Here, Squall is undoubtedly central to the game and is an interesting character, and a lot of the best stuff in the game deals with his romance with Rinoa and rivalry with Seifer. The problem with the game is that they forced an arbitrary and terrible "save the world/evil sorceress" plot on top of that.

FF9: Meh, I admit to having trouble defending this one. I thought Zidane was fairly uninspiring from the beginning. Still, at least he put some energy into the quest and the game designers _tried_ to shine a spotlight on him and make him interesting. Still got outshone by Vivi (who should have been the main character) and Garnet, though.

FF10: As I said, they made Tidus into a "witness", and built a lot of the game around his specific perspective and made him the narrator. Tidus himself was even more horribly generic than Zidane, but at least he was central to the story. And Yuna was the very centerpiece of the story, though they could have made her more interesting...

FF12: Vaan serves the story in no useful manner whatsoever, he shows no interest in the main quest in the slightest, and the team members around him consider him more of a bother than a true member of the team. At this point, the game designers have put him in just to fulfill some "generic youthful male hero" quota. He has all the flaws of Zidane and Tidus with none of their redeeming worth.

Ultimately, as you say, FF12 is a story about affairs of state. Why then is the main hero some kid who dreams about being a sky pirate, when sky piracy has nothing to do with the plot? They should have made the main hero at least mildly interested in the main subject of the plot.

Ugh... Even Vaan's brother would have made a lot more interesting of a main character... He at least had a direct connection to central events of the game.


----------



## Orius (Jun 19, 2008)

Vigilance said:
			
		

> Vaan is a peasant kid caught up in the affairs of state. Of course the story wasn't about him.
> 
> I liked that they didn't feel compelled to give him some enormous power mysterious power to save the day, or discover that he was a noble's illegitimate son or something cheap like that.
> 
> They didn't try and force Vaan into being the MAIN character because he was the character you had in your party through the entire game.




This sounds like a good thing to me.  At least SE looks like they're trying to move past some of the conventions of the genre; too many console RPGs have the same exact main character: An adolescent or young adult male who's father is dead or who is an orphan, who wields a sword expertly, even though he's only been using one since 5 minutes into the game, and whose hometown is destroyed at the beginning of the game.


----------



## Rackhir (Jun 19, 2008)

Orius said:
			
		

> This sounds like a good thing to me.  At least SE looks like they're trying to move past some of the conventions of the genre; too many console RPGs have the same exact main character: An adolescent or young adult male who's father is dead or who is an orphan, who wields a sword expertly, even though he's only been using one since 5 minutes into the game, and whose hometown is destroyed at the beginning of the game.




You forgot the amnesia. Either the hero or at least one of the other main characters has to have amnesia.

Pity it's such a great storytelling trick that it's become such a cliche.


----------



## TwinBahamut (Jun 20, 2008)

Orius said:
			
		

> This sounds like a good thing to me.  At least SE looks like they're trying to move past some of the conventions of the genre; too many console RPGs have the same exact main character: An adolescent or young adult male who's father is dead or who is an orphan, who wields a sword expertly, even though he's only been using one since 5 minutes into the game, and whose hometown is destroyed at the beginning of the game.



If you replace "hometown has been destroyed" with the equally common and cliche "hometown has been invaded by _the Evil Empire_ (tm), then you get Vaan.

Seriously, Square-Enix is not breaking out of old conventions with Vaan, they are doing the exact opposite. Cecil, Bartz (Butz, whatever), Terra, Cloud, and even Squall were far less cliche than Vaan in this exact manner.

And arguments about the characters of FF12 aside, it is still a horribly boring game with a lousy central game mechanic (the License Board). The game plays out rather similarly to what FF6 would have been like if the march from Narshe to Figaro took 23 hours. What is more, the license board is a terrible mess that doesn't even let you build characters with the kind of interesting, classic abilities of the FF games. You can't build a lance-user who can use the jump command, you can't build a thief who can steal, and you can't build a paladin who can cover. All you can do is build a character who uses a particular weapon and some kind of magic, and keep spending points until the end of the game just to keep the equipment you need for that set-up up to date.

I wish Square-Enix would spend more time trying to take old, good FF systems and improve them, rather than constantly ditch old system in favor of flawed new ones. The job system was pretty lousy in FF3, but the improved versions of that system in FF5, FFT, and FF10-2 are among my favorites in the series. A re-imagined and improved Materia system or Junction system (two variations of the Magicite system, really), or a rebuilt Sphere Grid could be really good, but Square-Enix just wastes time making terrible new systems like the License Board.


----------



## Grog (Jun 20, 2008)

TwinBahamut said:
			
		

> What is more, the license board is a terrible mess that doesn't even let you build characters with the kind of interesting, classic abilities of the FF games. You can't build a lance-user who can use the jump command, you can't build a thief who can steal, and you can't build a paladin who can cover.



Um, you could make a thief who could steal.


----------



## TwinBahamut (Jun 20, 2008)

Grog said:
			
		

> Um, you could make a thief who could steal.



Huh, bad example then. I only remembered the Poach ability, not stealing. Whoops.

At least I can stick to the other examples, plus the countless other classic Final Fantasy archetypes that FF12 doesn't cover. No Dance or Sing abilities, no traditional summons (I like the Lucavi/Totema guys, but FFT/FFTA proved that you can keep them _alongside_ the classics,  and I miss more classic summoning attacks), no Runic, no Sword Magic, no Mimic, no Blue Magic, none of the FF10-2 Blue Gunner's anti-enemy type moves, no Mug command (or any other command that combines an attack with a special effect), none of Auron's defense moves, no counter-attack stances, no Geomancy, no Shock... If nothing else, the Final Fantasy games have had a _lot_ special class abilities and character abilities that fit outside the realm of normal attacks and magic attacks, but FF12 has almost none of that.


----------



## Vigilance (Jun 20, 2008)

TwinBahamut said:
			
		

> The problem with Vaan (and Panelo) is that they don't even really have a reason to be there. There was absolutely no reason they couldn't have just made Ashe, Balthier, or Basch the main character. In fact, the young imperial prince, Larsa, would have been a pretty good main character. FF12 is the story of those characters, and Vaan is completely insignificant.




I disagree completely.

How is the story any less important to Vaan and Penelo, peasants living under the rule of a conquering power, than it is to Basch and Ashe, nobles living under a conquering power?

What you have are Dalmascan peasants and Dalmascan nobles, along with two rogues, working together to free their homeland. 

If anything, Balthier and Fran are the odd-persons out.



> All the good characters of past FF games, or even the bad ones, at least had _some_ justification for being the main hero.




Yes, but I wouldnt say Vaan was the "main hero". I wouldnt say FF XII had a "main hero".

It's about a GROUP of heroes.

Each main character has their moment in the sun and Vaan has plenty. You say he's unimportant, I disagree. He carries the first half or so of the game. 

Later in the game other characters step up, but that never bothered me, since Vaan had already had his moments in the sun.

And no, Vaan isn't the coolest character in the game imo. But neither was Tidus in FF X. 

Chuck


----------



## drothgery (Jun 20, 2008)

Vigilance said:
			
		

> Yes, but I wouldnt say Vaan was the "main hero". I wouldnt say FF XII had a "main hero".




Ashe was the main hero of FFXII. Just like Yuna was the main hero of FFX, and Garnet was the main hero of FFIX. That none of them were the person you started with and primarily controlled was somewhat irrelevant.


----------



## Amellia (Jun 20, 2008)

drothgery said:
			
		

> Ashe was the main hero of FFXII. Just like Yuna was the main hero of FFX, and Garnet was the main hero of FFIX. That none of them were the person you started with and primarily controlled was somewhat irrelevant.





I would actually make a case for Balthier as the hero of the game. But just the fact that this is an argument at all shows Vigilance's point, that the game is about a group of heroic people all fighting for the same cause, and that at any given time any number of them could be considered the "main" character. And I loved that about it. 

And the game is not boring -- I was riveted. I've played it through completely four times now, and am planning to start a fifth when one of my friends gets in town, because she wants to see it. It comes down to personal taste. And I applaud Square for making a series of games that are subtly different from each other, having elements that appeal to different flavors of RPG gamers. 12 is my favorite -- it doesn't mean it should be your favorite too, but I will object to someone calling it boring or lame.


----------



## drothgery (Jun 20, 2008)

Amellia said:
			
		

> I would actually make a case for Balthier as the hero of the game.




Balthier was arguably the most interesting and best-written character in the game (much like Auron was cooler than Yuna, the central character of FFX, and Tidus, the main point-of-view character). But it's hard to make a case that anyone other than Ashe was the central character to the story.


----------



## Flash_Plasma (Jun 21, 2008)

Not to derail the thread, but... am I the only one who actually liked FFVIII and FFIX?

FFVIII: I liked the GF system, I thought it was interesting and they did have a tie in to the story. The evil sorceress stuff was a bit arbitrary but everything else was executed pretty well, especially the space station/ragnarok scenes.

FFIX: I thought the game took a sort of back-to-basics approach with the more traditional plot but adding a bit of a spin near the end with the whole two worlds thing. The system wasn't all that great but I thought the characters were pretty fleshed out (except Quina... but that's besides the point... Quina is... weird). This actually hits 2nd on my list of favorite PS1 games, the first being Resident Evil 2.


----------



## Grog (Jun 21, 2008)

I didn't like FF8 much. Mainly because I really couldn't stand the main character. I don't have much patience for whiny-ass emo teenagers, and that translates to video games, too. And the whole plot device of "We all knew each other back at the orphanage!" was really stupid.

And the combat basically boiled down to "Draw until you get bored of drawing, then attack."

FF9 was awesome, though. One of the best in the series.


----------



## TwinBahamut (Jun 22, 2008)

Flash_Plasma said:
			
		

> Not to derail the thread, but... am I the only one who actually liked FFVIII and FFIX?



Nope. I am a bit sketchy on the first three Final Fantasy games (sometimes old-school suffers from age), but I loved everything from FF4 through FF10.

I really liked the way FF8 did so much to experiment with the tropes of the series, but still stayed pretty true to the essence of Final Fantasy. The Sorceress/Time Compression plot was terrible, but the stories of Squall and Rinoa's love and the entire "visions of Laguna" subplot actually stand as some of my favorites. Also, the Gardens rock. I just wish the Junction system was a little less breakable, and that the final dungeon was a bit more reasonable. The only reason I never saw the ending of that game was because the final dungeon was so bad.

FF9 was a great game. The main game system was a bit boring, the ATB system broke down a bit, and the whole Zidane/Garnet romance was just a rehash of overdone plots by that point, but the game was a roller-coaster ride of fun adventures and references back to my favorite entries in the series. It was _fun_, and that is all that matters. Besides, Vivi goes down as one of the greatest FF characters in history, which makes up for some of the random plot hiccups. I also love this game for the random and hilarious "love-letter mix-up" scene alone.

I don't like either game quite as much as FF4-7, but they are truly great games.

It makes me all the more depressed that FF12 turned out so... dull.


----------



## TwinBahamut (Jun 22, 2008)

Grog said:
			
		

> I didn't like FF8 much. Mainly because I really couldn't stand the main character. I don't have much patience for whiny-ass emo teenagers, and that translates to video games, too.



Huh... I can't agree that Squall was "emo" or "whiney". It is not like he mopes about his lot in life or even complains about anything.

Squall was _quiet_. In truth, he is just introverted and unsure on how to deal with other people. so he pushes them away and puts on an aloof facade. That is why his romance with Rinoa, who is so pushy and extroverted, works so well.

Squall's personality actually makes a lot of sense considering his background (orphaned from an early age and lost his memories of his few close friends), and that same background makes his rivalry with Seifer all the more interesting. Argh... FF8's plot would have been a lot better if it just focused on the Squall/Seifer rivalry instead of the forced Edea plot (and the even worse Ultimecia plot). Almost no villain could have followed right in the footsteps of Sephiroth, the third and possibly best of the three great FF villains, anyways.


----------



## DonTadow (Jun 23, 2008)

I stopped dealing with Swquall when i realized he wsn't going to stop being emo and depressing and stop beating old girl.  Everyon other cut scene he was pushing her or hitting her or shoving her.  It felt like JOe Jackson the RPG


----------



## Amellia (Jun 23, 2008)

drothgery said:
			
		

> Balthier was arguably the most interesting and best-written character in the game (much like Auron was cooler than Yuna, the central character of FFX, and Tidus, the main point-of-view character). But it's hard to make a case that anyone other than Ashe was the central character to the story.





Well, I think the distinction here is "main protagonist" vs. "hero." I agree that Ashe is the central character in that she's the one the main story is about, but I would say Balthier is the mover in the story -- without him nobody would've gotten very far, and it's his heroic (sometimes questionably so) actions throughout the plot that keep it moving forward. It's a sort of meaningless distinction, though... But yes, I do agree.


----------



## zerotkatama (Jul 1, 2008)

FFXII is  to date. (FFT ties/runs close behind). 

Warning: Raving ahead.

Specific and general things I loved about it:

The Characters: Balthier is just... awesome. As is most of the crew. And I really appreciated Vaan and Penelo as the role of the common people.

I really liked the interaction between Larsa and Vayne, and Vayne just clicked for me as a villain. I really liked being psyched out as to his intentions (his first speech is very pretty).

[sblock]The game so awesome it had not one but two Cids (and one of them's a bad guy!) [/sblock]

The music: oh dear lord the music blew me away, but admittedly I'm a game music junkie. "The Dalmasca Estersand" is an AWESOME "onward to adventure" music.  [sblock]."Clash on the Big Bridge", 'nough said (and no points for guessing why it's there). [/sblock]"The Battle for Freedom" is my hands down favorite final boss music (beating out "Zeromus", "X-Death,"  and "The Limitless"). And "To the Place of the Gods"... very nice and soothing. The FFXII soundtrack feels like a very well put-together movie soundtrack.

the Voice acting is superb.

Other points: The swapping of the Summon pantheon was an interesting move IMHO. Moving the FFT/A Lucavi/Totema into the limelight was nice, as was making all the classic ones airship classes (and that's just the Empire's. More name cameos on the resistance side). [sblock]Finding out you could summon Zeromus, Ex-Death, and Chaos... WHEE! Dreadnought Leviathan. Light Cruiser Shiva. SKY FORTRESS BAHAMUT.  [/sblock]


----------



## babomb (Jul 2, 2008)

I agree with the OP wholeheartedly. I am a big Final Fantasy fan, and I couldn't finish 12. I was just so bored. The battle system is either a pain in the butt (if I don't use gambits) or running in circles waiting for the enemies to die (if I do). The entire philosophy behind gambits is fundamentally flawed. If something in a game is so bad that you have to automate it, either fix it or remove it entirely. (And if they remove it, there's no game left.) 

One of my coworkers (who claims to like most of the game) said the best thing about the FFXII was that he didn't actually have to play it.

As for the characters, I don't give a damn about any of them except Balthier, and I don't give much of a damn about him. Vaan and Penelo actively annoy me. On top of that, the voice acting sounds phoned in. (In some cases, literally; the compression makes it sound like it was recorded over the phone.)


----------



## jeffh (Jul 3, 2008)

Galeros said:


> I never got to play FFXII.  Guess I am not missing much.
> 
> I am on and off again playing FFVI.  The sheer amount of level grinding I have to do makes me abandon it for stretches of time though.




Huh? I mostly just followed the main plot most of the (many) times I played through FF6, and I had very little trouble, even the first time.


----------



## Center-of-All (Jul 4, 2008)

Eh, 6 didn't have that much level grinding, until the very end. I can cheat with the one 'no-encounters' item, but I just couldn't grind a second party to proficiency to finish the game. Shame, it was good otherwise.

As for XII, yeah, none of the characters gripped me in any way, and I just couldn't get into the game system. It's a real shame, too, as this game seemed to be at a confluence of awesome. In the same world as FFT (best story, (and for that matter, game), period), the previous game in the series being X (I don't count XI, and X has some of the best gameplay ever), and using a real-time system, when they were sitting on the Kingdom Hearts games for use as a base (and KHII has the rest of the best gameplay ever). I really don't know how they screwed it up.


----------



## darkdragoon (Jul 6, 2008)

As far as story/development, Matsuno's plots are always open-ended. 

Tradition? you have the original five big bads.   You have the Ivalician iconics.  The new one is actually the one that best fits its respective sign. (centaur archer)

Abilitywise you actually don't have the abuses of V and VI (or even FFT's), much less the insane formulas of X.  Nobody is gimped on stats or abilities for once.  

Technicks have the goofy attacks and abilities you'd expect from Blue Magic and several other sets (like Gil Toss). 

Mug would actually be counterproductive against a lot of the enemies you want to steal from.   And the drop rates are downright generous compared to Vagrant Story or even the rare items in IV. 

Counter is the best it's ever been due to Genji Armor.

It's already easy enough to ignore or halve damage via equipment.  

Jump is a generic 60 attack Bangaa special.   I have a 150 attack spear. Yeah, let's see which one does more damage.


----------



## jeffh (Aug 5, 2008)

Well, I'm really starting to hate FFXII, but for completely different reasons than the OP and the other posters who didn't care for it.

I can't follow what the hell is going on in combat to save my life. Most of the time you can't find a camera angle where you can %^@$ing *SEE* anything, and if you waste time trying and the fight is challenging enough that you _need_ that information, you're _dead_. Things come at you so fast you can't respond to them all, even with the game set to pause whenever you enter a menu. The gambit system helps, but in the more challenging fights you have to change or override them so often they might as well not be there. And it's missing some really basic, obvious things, like a way to reliably stick to the same target until it's dead or a command to steal only from enemies you haven't already stolen from.

The previous games in the series all gave you really good feedback and time to think through your actions. You could see everything relevant that was happening; there was no way to have something jump down from above and kill you before you knew what the hell was going on or for one of your characters to run off and get him/herself killed because you were concentrating on something else or to run into a situation where it was _IMPOSSIBLE_ to see every character and monster simultaneously.

The level grinding also seems to be way up. No matter how many people have tried to tell me it was a necessity, I have _never_ needed to level-grind to finish a Final Fantasy game before. In this one, if you just follow the plot, you're constantly broke and stuck with the second- or third-best available equipment, at least as far as I've gotten in the game, even if you steal from nearly every enemy as I've been doing. If I want to be constantly broke and unable to afford the nice toys I'd like, I have real life for that; in a fantasy game I want to at least _occasionally_ get a break from it. My usual refusal to level-grind may, in this case, be tantamount to a refusal to play the game at all - which is fine, since I'm not having much fun with it anyway.

They had an interface that worked and that helped make their series one of the most beloved in the industry, and they threw it away and made some sort of imitation online game instead. I don't understand what could have possessed them to do that; _if it's not broken, don't fix it_. If they don't either go back to the old-style interface or at least find a way to _give decent feedback_ within the new one, the Final Fantasy series is over for me.


----------



## drothgery (Aug 5, 2008)

Since ENWorld ate a much longer reply earlier...

Jeff, try spending some time mark hunting. That's what I did when I figured out I was rather under-leveled. Also note that you can swap characters in the middle of combat, and that equipment doesn't matter all that much. The best stuff you can buy is fine, and you'll be able to afford it by the endgame.

But if you want something more along the lines of FFVII-FFX, try _Lost Odyssey_ on the 360 (which, surprisingly, is turning out as the best RPG machine of the current non-portables).


----------



## jeffh (Aug 5, 2008)

drothgery said:


> Since ENWorld ate a much longer reply earlier...
> 
> Jeff, try spending some time mark hunting. That's what I did when I figured out I was rather under-leveled. Also note that you can swap characters in the middle of combat, and that equipment doesn't matter all that much. The best stuff you can buy is fine, and you'll be able to afford it by the endgame.
> 
> But if you want something more along the lines of FFVII-FFX, try _Lost Odyssey_ on the 360 (which, surprisingly, is turning out as the best RPG machine of the current non-portables).




I'm well aware that I can swap characters; got used to using and abusing that ability in FFX. It's just that by the time I realize I should, someone's dead, or at the moment I want to do it every name is in red and I _can't_.

Equipment seems to matter a great deal, to the tune of almost a 50% difference in damage-dealing ability (judging from the numbers that pop up in the smaller battles where I can _tell _what number is associated with what action).

Mark hunting is exactly where most of my complaints originate; the wraith in the mines just slaughters me every time, for example, no matter what I do. It doesn't help that other monsters keep spawning all around it, which are theoretically easy to kill but if you focus on them the wraith has time to heal itself and you have to start that fight all over again, with more undead where those ones came from. Meanwhile those auxiliary monsters are another pretty reliable source of damage and contribute more than you might think to the fight's seemingly-unwinnable status. And to add insult to injury, I doubt the reward could possibly cover the number of phoenix downs I've had to pour into that battle, so I expect I'll actually *lose* money overall.


----------



## drothgery (Aug 5, 2008)

jeffh said:


> Mark hunting is exactly where most of my complaints originate; the wraith in the mines just slaughters me every time, for example, no matter what I do. It doesn't help that other monsters keep spawning all around it, which are theoretically easy to kill but if you focus on them the wraith has time to heal itself and you have to start that fight all over again, with more undead where those ones came from. Meanwhile those auxiliary monsters are another pretty reliable source of damage and contribute more than you might think to the fight's seemingly-unwinnable status. And to add insult to injury, I doubt the reward could possibly cover the number of phoenix downs I've had to pour into that battle, so I expect I'll actually *lose* money overall.




Oh, that one. Skip it and come back later. Look up how to kill it at gamefaqs.com or in a strategy guide.

I don't know if it was just me, but by mid to high levels I was mostly relying on magic for damage-dealing. Also, status magic is _important_ in FFXII. You pretty much want the strongest versions of the protection from physical attack spell and the protection from magic attack spells that you can manage up _all the time_.


----------



## jeffh (Aug 6, 2008)

drothgery said:


> Oh, that one. Skip it and come back later. Look up how to kill it at gamefaqs.com or in a strategy guide.
> 
> I don't know if it was just me, but by mid to high levels I was mostly relying on magic for damage-dealing. Also, status magic is _important_ in FFXII. You pretty much want the strongest versions of the protection from physical attack spell and the protection from magic attack spells that you can manage up _all the time_.



Hmm. I'll try that; it shouldn't be too hard to set up gambits that'll automate the process of setting those up, and I'm starting to get the tiles on the license board that lower MP costs so it shouldn't compromise my offence or healing too much; I'll have walked the costs off by the time I get into a fight in most maps.

I don't, however, expect that I'll ever like the MMO-style interface. The fact remains that I find it impossible to follow what's going on in any fight hard enough for that information to be worth knowing.


----------



## drothgery (Aug 6, 2008)

jeffh said:


> Hmm. I'll try that; it shouldn't be too hard to set up gambits that'll automate the process of setting those up, and I'm starting to get the tiles on the license board that lower MP costs so it shouldn't compromise my offence or healing too much; I'll have walked the costs off by the time I get into a fight in most maps.




You're just starting to get those and you're going after monsters in the mines? Eek. You didn't spend a lot of points on technics, did you?


----------



## LightPhoenix (Aug 6, 2008)

I was turned off to FF12 by the battle system.  I tried it (via my brother) and just didn't like it.  I never got far enough into the story to judge it.  I will applaud SE for taking a chance and trying to be innovative with the battle system however.  It's just not my cup of tea.

I don't have a specific issue with the Gambit system, but again, I didn't play enough of the game to really get into it.  I will say I am a little tired of SE almost completely changing the ability system in every (recent) game.  For reference though, I would say my favorites were probably FF6 and FF10 - some decisions to be made, but mostly not opening up until the end-game.  On the complete opposite spectrum I'd put FF7 and FF8.  I loathed the open-ended ability systems, and I think it hurt not just the system but characterization as well.

(As an aside: I am a firm believer that if you're going to have a battle-oriented story-based game with multiple characters (like an RPG), then by necessity characters need to have a personality in battle, since that is where the most time in game is spent.)

For the series as a whole, the only one I truly didn't like was FF8.  Terrible plot, terrible ability system, terrible battle system, just overall god-awful.  I stopped playing towards the end and never picked it up again.  There are things I like and dislike about each of the other games, and I could enumerate them if anyone really wanted me to.  Otherwise, I can sum up and say I mostly enjoyed them all.


----------



## jeffh (Aug 7, 2008)

drothgery said:


> You're just starting to get those and you're going after monsters in the mines? Eek. You didn't spend a lot of points on technics, did you?




We may be talking past each other; I'm still fairly early in the game, and the mine I was referring to is the one in Ondore's backyard. Plot-wise I'm up to trying to cross the desert to get to the Tomb of Raithwall. (First time through I was doing fine until I got creamed by a Wyvern I couldn't even tell was there until it was too late, second try I got slaughtered by those little walking tomatoes almost instantly. I honestly don't think I did anything different that would explain how I did so poorly the second time through, so that was very frustrating for me.)


----------



## deadplayer (Aug 7, 2008)

Galeros said:


> I never got to play FFXII. Guess I am not missing much.
> 
> I am on and off again playing FFVI. The sheer amount of level grinding I have to do makes me abandon it for stretches of time though.




I also never player FFXI


----------



## jeffh (Aug 7, 2008)

This will be blasphemy to some, but I started Final Fantasy X-2 and so far I like it a lot better. Like I said in a certain other thread recently, big sprawling non-linear games that don't take themselves too seriously FTW. (And, I might add, ones that have some depth to them but that aren't aimed exclusively at hardcore gamers.)


----------



## Orius (Aug 8, 2008)

jeffh said:


> This will be blasphemy to some, but I started Final Fantasy X-2 and so far I like it a lot better. Like I said in a certain other thread recently, big sprawling non-linear games that don't take themselves too seriously FTW. (And, I might add, ones that have some depth to them but that aren't aimed exclusively at hardcore gamers.)




I wouldn't really consider FFX-2 to be all that big and sprawling, but it certainly fits everything else.  It's a fun game, and there's lots of different stuff to do, even trying the insanity of getting 100% completion in a single game.


----------



## Cthulhudrew (Aug 9, 2008)

I haven't finished it yet, but for the most part I really like XII. It's one of my favorite in the series. Visually, it's beautiful- the cut scenes are awesome. And it is, by far (IMO) the best voice acting in the series. There are still some translation issues, but far fewer than in other installments.

Balthier is definitely the most interesting of the characters, though I find Basch to be pretty intriguing as well (from what I've read, Basch was originally intended to be the main character, which may have something to do with Vaan's sort of bland personality).

The License Board and fighting aspects don't wow me as much as in some of the other games- the LB for purposes of customization (as others have said, it tends to make the characters a bit too similar, and given the way equipment becomes available, having so much of the board focus on arms and armor seems a bit redundant); I still can't quite get used to the Gambit system, but that's because I don't tend to think ahead too much in terms of combats- I'm a wade in type of game player, not a "buff" guy. I can see how the Gambits would be really useful if I put more thought into things, but I just haven't taken the time.

Story-wise, I think it starts out really strong, but at the point I'm currently at (close to the end- just going through the Pharos), things are a bit confused. There is almost too much going on in the middle, and it takes a bit longer to tie it all together than it should.

(One thing that has really bugged me is the contrived way in which they keep Balthier's airship from being able to take the party all the way to the Tomb at Raithwall. Mainly because the problem that causes it- I can't think of the name offhand for the stuff that blocks airship travel- doesn't consistently seem to do the same thing throughout the story.)


----------



## jeffh (Aug 20, 2008)

Well, as an update to what I said before, I'm finding FFXII a lot easier to get into now. I've gotten a lot better at using gambits and status effects (positive ones, especially Decoy + obscene shield-blocking - the negative ones seem pretty useless, they never work on anything worth using them on) and gotten more willing to explore random corners of the game and go off on side quests. Now instead of being underleveled and underequipped I'm slightly overleveled if anything.

I've been having a lot more fun since I realized this is the first FF game in a long time to really reward the explorer mentality. I just returned to the main quest after finishing all the cactaur stuff and taking a stab at the secret part of Bartheim Passage (still not powerful enough for that, I couldn't win a fight without Quickenings in there!), and the only reason I'm back where the plot expects me to be is that I realized I'm so far ahead of mandatory NPC Larsa that he's actually become a liability - it's not that he makes _no _contribution, but he sucks back more still-semi-expensive Phoenix Downs than he's worth, against things my "real" characters have no trouble with. (I assume following the plot is the only way to get rid of him.)

I will always love the old-style Final Fantasy interface, but once you get used to the new MMO-like thing and become proficient with programming Gambits, it's okay. I still think the combat feedback is very poor, mostly due to the camera angles, and that's sometimes an annoyance, but I can live with it now. I do think there's too much wandering around on the world map and that the license board is inferior to the sphere grid in giving your characters individual identities and to the job system in flexibility, but I no longer want to rip the lungs out of everyone who had a hand in making it, as I did when I started posting here.


----------



## drothgery (Aug 21, 2008)

jeffh said:


> I'm back where the plot expects me to be is that I realized I'm so far ahead of mandatory NPC Larsa that he's actually become a liability - it's not that he makes _no _contribution, but he sucks back more still-semi-expensive Phoenix Downs than he's worth, against things my "real" characters have no trouble with. (I assume following the plot is the only way to get rid of him.)




I still think you must be mismanaging the license board somewhere, because you ought to have a resurrection spell around and not be buying phoenix downs (and you don't gambit them except in boss fights until you're high enough level that the MP doesn't matter).

But yeah, following the plot is the only way to get rid of Larsa (who was marginally helpful for me when I played through). And you'll get another tagalong NPC later that sticks with you until just before the endgame.

Also re-iterating my 'get a 360 and _Lost Odyssey_' plug if you like old-school FF.


----------



## jeffh (Aug 21, 2008)

drothgery said:


> I still think you must be mismanaging the license board somewhere, because you ought to have a resurrection spell around and not be buying phoenix downs (and you don't gambit them except in boss fights until you're high enough level that the MP doesn't matter).
> 
> But yeah, following the plot is the only way to get rid of Larsa (who was marginally helpful for me when I played through). And you'll get another tagalong NPC later that sticks with you until just before the endgame.
> 
> Also re-iterating my 'get a 360 and _Lost Odyssey_' plug if you like old-school FF.




 What possible reason could there be for _not_ having Phoenix Down or Life in your top gambit slot? That seems like a no-brainer to me.

From having Life, it doesn't follow that you stop buying phoenix downs.

Phoenix Downs are _much_ faster
Life costs a _lot _of MP, which (in the fights where resource management actually matters) you either need for offensive and buffing spells or want to hold in reserve for Quickenings, depending on the character
Once you have all the Phoenix Lore licenses, Phoenix Downs bring characters back with more HP
Bear in mind that I'm doing stuff like taking on the Earth Tyrant before level 30. You plan for the worst-case scenario.

(For the record, the only character who's paying much attention to Teckniks is Balthier, mostly because I earmarked the two Quickenings in the lower right corner of the north half of the board to him. My main focus on the board has been Augments, and to a lesser extent spells; that or beating a path to a Quickening without much regard for what else is in the way.)


----------



## Orius (Aug 21, 2008)

jeffh said:


> I've gotten a lot better at using gambits and status effects (positive ones, especially Decoy + obscene shield-blocking - the negative ones seem pretty useless, they never work on anything worth using them on)




Negative status effects in general are often a waste of time in most games like this anyway.  Haven't played FFXII yet, but I usually don't make much use of the spells/abilities in most of the other games in the series.



> I will always love the old-style Final Fantasy interface, but once you get used to the new MMO-like thing and become proficient with programming Gambits, it's okay.




I certainly want to try it.  Even though the old turn-based games have thier charm, they're getting a bit long in the tooth as well.  Western RPGs have been doing real-time for years now.


----------



## jeffh (Aug 21, 2008)

Orius said:


> Negative status effects in general are often a waste of time in most games like this anyway.  Haven't played FFXII yet, but I usually don't make much use of the spells/abilities in most of the other games in the series.



That hasn't always, or even usually, been the case in Final Fantasy, though. Off the top of my head, they were extremely important in FFX and quite useful in FF4 and certain battles of FF6, for example.


----------



## Amellia (Aug 21, 2008)

jeffh said:


> What possible reason could there be for _not_ having Phoenix Down or Life in your top gambit slot? That seems like a no-brainer to me.




I prefer life to Phoenix Downs in mid-game, until the end when speed in boss fights is more valuable than money. 

As for Larsa -- instead of having Any --> Phoenix Down, try having each person responsible one or two other people -- like set a gambit for Vaan that's Penelo --> Phoenix Down, etc. Then you can just let Larsa die, and stay dead, and keep Phoenix Downs in your gambit system.

(It's a been a while since I last played, so I might not be remembering the exact gambit names correctly...)


----------



## drothgery (Aug 21, 2008)

jeffh said:


> What possible reason could there be for _not_ having Phoenix Down or Life in your top gambit slot? That seems like a no-brainer to me.




I was very short on cash until l started grinding through mark hunting late in the game. MP are a lot easier to get than cash, and you don't want to accidentally do something that costs a lot of MP. So I just kept resurrection out of gambits for the most part, and manually dropped in when somebody died.

Also, quickenings for me were desperation tactics; they didn't get used very much.


----------



## Orius (Aug 22, 2008)

jeffh said:


> That hasn't always, or even usually, been the case in Final Fantasy, though. Off the top of my head, they were extremely important in FFX and quite useful in FF4 and certain battles of FF6, for example.




Haven't played the middle games, so can't speak much there.  As for FFX, status attacks for a good chunk of the game usually involves bringing Wakka into the fight.  I've often done that, blind or silence a powerful monster to protect the party, but a lot of the stuff Wakka's good for are also one-hit kills too.  And later in the game, as the stat resistances build up in the monsters Wakka gets more useful for unleashing Attack Reels instead.  The other major statuses in that game, Poison, Death and Zombie I don't really use that often.


----------



## jeffh (Aug 22, 2008)

drothgery said:


> I was very short on cash until l started grinding through mark hunting late in the game. MP are a lot easier to get than cash, and you don't want to accidentally do something that costs a lot of MP. So I just kept resurrection out of gambits for the most part, and manually dropped in when somebody died.
> 
> Also, quickenings for me were desperation tactics; they didn't get used very much.




When I realized that you could and should explore for its own sake rather than sticking to what's strictly necessary for the plot as I was originally doing, money just stopped being a problem as a side-effect. Wandering through areas that were tough a level or two ago but are cakewalks now, you get a _lot_ of loot. And poking into areas that are _just_ over your head can be _very_ lucrative [EDIT: Previous version of this sentence made no sense, the basic idea is that if, say, you're going into the secret part of Bartheim Passage as soon as it's possible to do so, remember that you have Quickenings as a get-out-of-jail-free card for one fight]. You can seemingly wander around and find sidequests anywhere (unless you're in Russia, in which case sidequests find you). 

Rephrasing with a different emphasis: All you need in order to get money _or_ MP (outside an emergency situation) is patience, but money you can _also_ get as a side-effect of doing other stuff. So I'd actually rather spend money; you'd _think _it would be the less renewable of the two but that's largely an illusion.

Quickenings absolutely are desperation tactics. That's precisely _why_ you hold your MP in reserve for them. The worst thing you can do to yourself is need them and _not_ be able to use them. If that means some of your characters (the three male ones, in my case) have their MP sitting there doing nothing most of the time, so be it. One thing I started out hating but now quite like about FFXII is that it has Rare Game to keep you honest; you never know when an almost-boss-quality monster is going to just randomly wander in and hose you. (#^@&ing Cultsworn Lich...)

@Amellia: that's a smart setup (though I no longer need it, I got to the point where you ditch Larsa). The only problem is that it can take more slots than mine; some, though by no means all, of my characters are finding gambit slots quite precious (though that's largely due to buff routines I keep greyed out until I suspect a boss or mark is ahead). For other things I want on some but not all characters I simply use Ally: Party Leader and rotate leaders accordingly (much quicker than doing _anything_ manually) but that isn't an option for raising because you can't make a dead character the leader!


----------



## Amellia (Aug 22, 2008)

jeffh said:


> Quickenings absolutely are desperation tactics. That's precisely _why_ you hold your MP in reserve for them. The worst thing you can do to yourself is need them and _not_ be able to use them. If that means some of your characters (the three male ones, in my case) have their MP sitting there doing nothing most of the time, so be it. One thing I started out hating but now quite like about FFXII is that it has Rare Game to keep you honest; you never know when an almost-boss-quality monster is going to just randomly wander in and hose you. (#^@&ing Cultsworn Lich...)
> 
> @Amellia: that's a smart setup (though I no longer need it, I got to the point where you ditch Larsa). The only problem is that it can take more slots than mine; some, though by no means all, of my characters are finding gambit slots quite precious (though that's largely due to buff routines I keep greyed out until I suspect a boss or mark is ahead). For other things I want on some but not all characters I simply use Ally: Party Leader and rotate leaders accordingly (much quicker than doing _anything_ manually) but that isn't an option for raising because you can't make a dead character the leader!





I think I played the game through without ever really using quickenings. Maybe in the plantdragon boss fight (don't remember where that comes, so I'll say no more) but mostly, I didn't need them. Though you make a good point, it's been a while so I'm unsure when you get all the gambit slots. Of course, I was obsessed with completely filling in the license board, so I think I did it before I was supposed to, plot wise. The lich in Wraithwall's Tomb (I think) that's a rare spawn, that summons zombies, is perfect for that. If you fiddle with your gambit slots you can actually set something up whereby your characters only kill the zombies, keep themselves alive infinitely, and thus get license points and exp galore. A good tip for if you're later in the game and hitting monsters that are too hard.


----------



## Felon (Aug 27, 2008)

Let's see, played FFVII like everyone else who owned a Playstation. It was an event.

FFVIII, IIRC, was the one that took place at an academy and had characters running classrooms and answering emails. Pretty bland. 

FFIX was the one with the furries, right? Seemed that the difficulty scaled too high early in the game. I recall being on some kind of airship that crashed into a swamp or forest, and everything in it could kick my butt. Got old fast.

Didn't get a PS2, but might get a PS3 if there's ever another price drop. Both X and XII have gotten excellent reviews, so I might check'em out. Then again, the new PS3 won't be backwards-compatable with PS2 games.


----------



## Amellia (Aug 27, 2008)

Felon said:


> Didn't get a PS2, but might get a PS3 if there's ever another price drop. Both X and XII have gotten excellent reviews, so I might check'em out. Then again, the new PS3 won't be backwards-compatable with PS2 games.





I want to play XIII, and I <3 Blu-ray. I'll probably end up getting a PS3 for those reasons when I have disposable income, and once my roommate's gone, as she currently has one that I can use.


----------



## drothgery (Aug 27, 2008)

Amellia said:


> I want to play XIII, and I <3 Blu-ray. I'll probably end up getting a PS3 for those reasons when I have disposable income, and once my roommate's gone, as she currently has one that I can use.




I've got a 360, so need for a PS3 for XIII, but if the PS3 remains the cheapest decent Blu-Ray player and gets at least a small price cut (I spent $650 on three consoles last-gen -- $300 PS2 + $200 Xbox + $150 GC -- and I don't want to spend much more than that on two consoles this-gen) then I'll probably end up with one this fall.


----------



## Quemaqua (Sep 2, 2008)

Didn't read the entire thread, but saw so many negatives on the first page I had to contribute - this is one of my favorite games of all time.  It has one of the greatest soundtracks ever, to my ear, and some of the most fantastic imagery.  The rest of the system isn't perfect, but is infinitely superior to the other games, in my view.  I enjoyed many past FF games, but none as much as this one.

Oh, and while the characters don't have the deepest relationships to one another, they're far more interesting than the usual archetypes, and there's some fantastic voice acting work for a good portion of them.  Along those same lines, FFXII is probably the best-localized game I've ever seen, featuring jaw-dropping amounts of text all lovingly crafted with an aggressively persistent attention to detail and context.


----------



## DonTadow (Sep 2, 2008)

Quemaqua said:


> Didn't read the entire thread, but saw so many negatives on the first page I had to contribute - this is one of my favorite games of all time.  It has one of the greatest soundtracks ever, to my ear, and some of the most fantastic imagery.  The rest of the system isn't perfect, but is infinitely superior to the other games, in my view.  I enjoyed many past FF games, but none as much as this one.
> 
> Oh, and while the characters don't have the deepest relationships to one another, they're far more interesting than the usual archetypes, and there's some fantastic voice acting work for a good portion of them.  Along those same lines, FFXII is probably the best-localized game I've ever seen, featuring jaw-dropping amounts of text all lovingly crafted with an aggressively persistent attention to detail and context.



So you liked the pretty graphics and the voice acting?  

Sorry these don't have anything to do with a great game.  Give me 16bit sprites and FFXI over this anyday.  While you were being amazed by the voicework, the rest of the story was running in a mundane circle.  Not saying it was the worst one, but it sure was one of the most mediocre.


----------



## Amellia (Sep 2, 2008)

DonTadow said:


> So you liked the pretty graphics and the voice acting?
> 
> Sorry these don't have anything to do with a great game.  Give me 16bit sprites and FFXI over this anyday.  While you were being amazed by the voicework, the rest of the story was running in a mundane circle.  Not saying it was the worst one, but it sure was one of the most mediocre.





Okay... that's like saying "Oh, so you liked the great acting and gritty feel of Dark Knight? Sorry, that doesn't a good superhero movie make." Everyone plays games for different reasons, and it's not news that FF attracts a lot of people (myself included) because of how stunning its graphics are, and how polished the game. There are tons of reasons to like Final Fantasy in general, and FF12 in specific, and while it's fine to have a differing opinion, I don't feel like saying that a person's reasons for liking something are somehow incorrect because you don't share them. 

My reasons for liking FF12:

1. Fighting/Gameplay (I adore the gambit system.)
2. Story (The politics and history of the world were so incredibly rich, it felt like something I'd find in a bestselling novel, and kept me playing far longer in a sitting than I ever intended)
3. Graphics (Cut scenes took my breath away, and real time gameplay was better than most other games' cut scenes)
4. Characters (they finally broke away from the stereotypes, coming up with characters like Balthier and Gabranth, whom I loved)


----------



## Orius (Sep 3, 2008)

Well, I just got me a copy of FFXII, and so far it has the orius Seal of Approval.

But then, I learned long ago to ignore the haters.


----------



## DonTadow (Sep 3, 2008)

Amellia said:


> Okay... that's like saying "Oh, so you liked the great acting and gritty feel of Dark Knight? Sorry, that doesn't a good superhero movie make." Everyone plays games for different reasons, and it's not news that FF attracts a lot of people (myself included) because of how stunning its graphics are, and how polished the game. There are tons of reasons to like Final Fantasy in general, and FF12 in specific, and while it's fine to have a differing opinion, I don't feel like saying that a person's reasons for liking something are somehow incorrect because you don't share them.
> 
> My reasons for liking FF12:
> 
> ...



 Actually it's like saying that I went to see the darkknight and i loved hte popcorn they served. 

People go to movies to watch and listen.  People play video games to interact.  I know you're kinda young, but back in the day final fantasy games were all about the story, not how much cgi they could throw on the screen.  10 was a great balance between the too, however 12 was a decent into lets just throw pretty pictures on the screen  and 13 looks to be going the same direction. 

It reminded me of a dnd game where the DM is so engrossed in his own world and story that you get shoved through it all without any real connection with anything and every 5 minutes he shows you a video of what you're talking about.


----------



## Amellia (Sep 3, 2008)

I happened to love the story in FF12. No, it was not because they showed me "pretty pictures." I simply loved the story, I thought the history of the world was extremely rich, the characters engaging, and the pacing expertly done. I think you'll find that I rated the gameplay and the story above the graphics in terms of what appealed to me about FF12.

Just as one person might like a book and another person hate it, it's possible for two people to play the same game and one person to like it and another to dislike it. I've never tried to say that people's opinions are invalid because they don't coincide with mine.



> I know you're kinda young, but...




What does my being 23 have to do with anything? Frankly, I'd be more worried if I was thirty and still incapable of understanding that human beings have different tastes, and that's what brings us such a rich variety of entertainment.


----------



## LightPhoenix (Sep 4, 2008)

Amellia said:


> Just as one person might like a book and another person hate it, it's possible for two people to play the same game and one person to like it and another to dislike it. I've never tried to say that people's opinions are invalid because they don't coincide with mine.




Despite DonTadow's comment about age, I believe the point he was trying to make was that first and foremost, RPG's are _games_, not stories.  The very fact that the analogy is to a book is telling - you're not judging it by being a game, but by being a story.  There's nothing wrong with that, however there are people who want to play a game and will judge it as such.  Ultimately, my feeling is that the G stands for "game," and thus should be judged on that.  Otherwise, perhaps these types of games should be relabeled as interactive stories.

As I've said upthread, I didn't particularly like the gameplay in FF12 and so I didn't play much of it.  However, one of the biggest problems I've had with most RPGs, as an RPG lover, is that gameplay has always taken a backseat to story*.  What I feel should be happening is that gameplay and story should get equal consideration, which would still be unique to RPGs (for the most part).  If the game isn't fun to play, it's not a fun game, no matter how good the story is (for example, Xenogears).

*In reality, the number one priority has to be art direction, especially graphics.  This is unfortunate but required to compete in today's gaming world.  Note that art direction, and graphics, does not imply hyper-realistic, however it does require a well-defined style.  The emphasis that is left over goes to story (including characterization) and gameplay.


----------



## John Crichton (Sep 4, 2008)

I'm enjoying how others are telling others how to enjoy games in this thread.  Please continue...

There is no badwrongfun.  FF has endured for a reason.  It provides many things to many different types of people.


----------



## Orius (Sep 4, 2008)

Hm, so far I haven't noticed FFXII weighing me down with its story.  There's plenty of things to do in the game that I've been seeing more than just cutscenes.


----------

