# Day of the Doctor



## Jester David (Nov 23, 2013)

Couple hours left. 
Could be awesome. Could suck. Only time will tell.


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## Morrus (Nov 23, 2013)

We leave for the cinema shortly.  Can't wait!

(_An Adventure in Space and Time _was great!)


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## Jester David (Nov 23, 2013)

_An Adventure in Space in Time_ is airing after _Day of the Doctor_ here. Have to watch that later.

Way too excited. Likely a mistake. Getting too excited usually leads to disappointment as nothing can live up to the hype.


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## Jester David (Nov 23, 2013)

While you wait:
http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20131119-doctor-who-travels-through-time


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## Janx (Nov 23, 2013)

Morrus said:


> We leave for the cinema shortly.  Can't wait!
> 
> (_An Adventure in Space and Time _was great!)




What's an adventure in Space and Time?

I swear I'm missing half the doctor who content....


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## trappedslider (Nov 23, 2013)

Janx said:


> What's an adventure in Space and Time?
> 
> I swear I'm missing half the doctor who content....



Docudrama of  how the Legend starts..


[Sblock=As for the show itself].. OMG....The search for Gallifrey begins and now we have the correct number of Doctors...13....soon to be 14....[/Sblock]


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## Jester David (Nov 23, 2013)

Wow. Just wow.


Time War. Multiple Doctors. Lots of small references. Fez. Explosions. Elizabeth the 1st. Shapeshifters. Eyebrows.


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## trappedslider (Nov 23, 2013)

Jester Canuck said:


> Wow. Just wow.
> 
> 
> Time War. Multiple Doctors. Lots of small references. Fez. Explosions. Elizabeth the 1st.




Badwolf


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## Morrus (Nov 23, 2013)

Capaldi's eyebrows!


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## Jester David (Nov 23, 2013)

Morrus said:


> Capaldi's eyebrows!



You need to add a "By" in that. 

Like in "By Odin's Beard" or "By Moradin's Axe."


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## Grumpy RPG Reviews (Nov 23, 2013)

A. I liked most of it, but I dislike the resolution, so much so it is spoiling most of the show for me. 

B. Capaldi's doctor apparently consist entirely of a pair of angry eyeballs. 

C. Clara may be Gallifrey in some manner.


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## Bedrockgames (Nov 23, 2013)

Grumpy RPG Reviews said:


> C. Clara may be Gallifrey in some manner.




Can you elaborate on this? I think I missed any clues that suggested a connection between her and Gallifrey, but that sounds intriguing.


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## trappedslider (Nov 23, 2013)

The look on Ten's face when Hurt says Bad wolf...and the Cameo at the end... nice endcap


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## Jester David (Nov 23, 2013)

Grumpy RPG Reviews said:


> A. I liked most of it, but I dislike the resolution, so much so it is spoiling most of the show for me.



How so?



Grumpy RPG Reviews said:


> B. Capaldi's doctor apparently consist entirely of a pair of angry eyeballs.



Well, it was too soon to fully reveal him as they might not have had his "look" finalized at the time of shooting. And don't want to entirely spoil him for people who don't scour the internet looking for Spoilers. Some Whovians might have purposely or accidentally avoided the news of the forthcoming regeneration.


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## Bedrockgames (Nov 23, 2013)

trappedslider said:


> The look on Ten's face when Hurt says Bad wolf...and the Cameo at the end... nice endcap




Yes and yes. Apparently the cameo was leaked but I hadn't heard a thing. Was a total surprise to me.


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## Grumpy RPG Reviews (Nov 23, 2013)

Bedrockgames said:


> Can you elaborate on this? I think I missed any clues that suggested a connection between her and Gallifrey, but that sounds intriguing.




It is purely supposition. 1. She has some odd time element to her; having lived in three time periods and died in two of them, but she keep coming back and according to the Doctor is more than a mere young human woman. 2. She has sought out the Doctor. 3. She argued against the destruction of Gallifrey. 4. Something similar was done in the novels, which also discuss the Time War and the apparent loss and restoration of Gallifrey.


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## Morrus (Nov 23, 2013)

Grumpy RPG Reviews said:


> It is purely supposition. 1. She has some odd time element to her; having lived in three time periods and died in two of them, but she keep coming back and according to the Doctor is more than a mere young human woman. 2. She has sought out the Doctor. 3. She argued against the destruction of Gallifrey. 4. Something similar was done in the novels, which also discuss the Time War and the apparent loss and restoration of Gallifrey.




Did you not see The Name of the Doctor? That explains what she is, and why she kept appearing and dying. There's more than three of her.


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## Mistwell (Nov 23, 2013)

Loved that!


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## Jester David (Nov 23, 2013)

By Capaldi's Eyebrows!


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## Morrus (Nov 23, 2013)

If you haven't seen Davison-directed "The Fiveish Doctors" you haven't seen the anniversary episode yet. Stats Davison, Baker, McCoy, Moffat, Tennant, Smith, Peter Jackson, Ian Mckellan, John Barrowman, RTD, various old companions, and more!

Available in red button (and will be on iPlayer). No, I don't know where it's showing in foreign countries.


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## Grumpy RPG Reviews (Nov 23, 2013)

Morrus said:


> Did you not see The Name of the Doctor? That explains what she is, and why she kept appearing and dying. There's more than three of her.




I've not seen that episode.


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## Morrus (Nov 24, 2013)

Grumpy RPG Reviews said:


> I've not seen that episode.




Oh. Well, try to see it. It directly contradicts your theory. It's the big Clara Explanation episode.


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## Grumpy RPG Reviews (Nov 24, 2013)

Oh well, then I guess Gallifrey is embodies in Capaldi's Angry Eyes.

Also, it occurs to me the fate of the Moment is not revealed. I expect it is in a closet in the Tardis somewhere.


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## MarkB (Nov 24, 2013)

My only disappointment was that, having finally got to see the Time War, all that we really saw of it was one final, very straightforward engagement.

This was supposed to be the war that shattered the universe, time being rewritten over and over again by either side, the escalation of paradoxes conjuring into being strange and terrible threats - the Nightmare Child, the Could've-been King, the Horde of Travesties. But we didn't get to see any of that.

What we did get to see, I enjoyed a lot. I'd just have liked it a little more epic. Ah well, maybe they'll touch on those parts if they ever do get round to telling the story of Gallifrey's return.


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## Morrus (Nov 24, 2013)

MarkB said:


> My only disappointment was that, having finally got to see the Time War, all that we really saw of it was one final, very straightforward engagement.
> 
> This was supposed to be the war that shattered the universe, time being rewritten over and over again by either side, the escalation of paradoxes conjuring into being strange and terrible threats - the Nightmare Child, the Could've-been King, the Horde of Travesties. But we didn't get to see any of that.




I thought this x1000%. The Time War turns out to be some people shooting at daleks with laser guns.  Agreed, completely.  This is there RRD's glorious imagination was failed by Moffat's pragmatism.


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## Herschel (Nov 24, 2013)

Yeah, I would have liked a little....more/something else of the time war. I was kind of glad Rose took the form she did. I also loved the Capaldi drop-in and at first I thought he, not Baker, might be the curator but either way it was pretty cool. I had some people over for gaming, lunch and then viewing the special.


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## Bedrockgames (Nov 24, 2013)

Morrus said:


> I thought this x1000%. The Time War turns out to be some people shooting at daleks with laser guns.  Agreed, completely.  This is there RRD's glorious imagination was failed by Moffat's pragmatism.




Yeah, i thought the effects for the war were good, but the scope didn't meet what I had built up in my mind.


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## Morrus (Nov 24, 2013)

Bedrockgames said:


> Yeah, i thought the effects for the war were good, but the scope didn't meet what I had built up in my mind.




As RTD said: never show the Time War. Never show the Clone Wars. You can only underwhelm the imagination.


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## Jester David (Nov 24, 2013)

MarkB said:


> My only disappointment was that, having finally got to see the Time War, all that we really saw of it was one final, very straightforward engagement.
> 
> 
> This was supposed to be the war that shattered the universe, time being rewritten over and over again by either side, the escalation of paradoxes conjuring into being strange and terrible threats - the Nightmare Child, the Could've-been King, the Horde of Travesties. But we didn't get to see any of that.
> ...





Morrus said:


> I thought this x1000%. The Time War turns out to be some people shooting at daleks with laser guns.  Agreed, completely.  This is there RRD's glorious imagination was failed by Moffat's pragmatism.



Agreed, but traveling back in time and trying to erase people's future or killing ancestors is a little less dramatic. 
We never saw the Time War (apart from _Genesis of the Daleks_) just what ended up being _a_ battle in the Time War. But I'll forgive this as that wasn't the story being told, and the Time War is a bit big for one special. It'd be like trying to summarize both World Wars and the Cold War in a single hour-long special. 

Plus so much of the horrors of the Time War are things better left as vague horrors, where the imaginations of the fans will always be better. They sound better than they would look. You can name drop the "Horde of Travesties" and it sounds like the worst thing ever, but once you CGI it into existence it's just another Who monster. It's like Lovecraft and why the movies will always be unsatisfying as you can' tactically render "non-Euclidian architecture". 

The hard bit for the future is dealing with the returned Time Lords, especially when the 10th (sorry, the 11th) Doctor worked so hard to prevent their return, risking death to stop it. 
And as the Daleks are still out there, what's to start the Time War starting again?


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## Morrus (Nov 24, 2013)

Or - why just between the Time Lords and the Daleks? Are the Sontarans etc. all chump change? Why wasn't it the Daleks vs the Sontarans? Or the Cybermen? Or a thousand other big races?


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## Jester David (Nov 24, 2013)

The Time War is something that should be handed off to Big Finish, where they don't have to worry about blowing a third of an episode's budget in a giant SFX and can still leave imagination in play. 
And they can have some more episodic moments, such as going back in time and sabotaging Skarro's star before the planet even forms and the like.

--edit--
This might be a fun conversation for the Doctor Who RPG game. 1001 ideas for a Time War game. 
And the hopeful War Doctor supplement from Cubical 7


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## Herschel (Nov 24, 2013)

he S







Morrus said:


> Or - why just between the Time Lords and the Daleks? Are the Sontarans etc. all chump change? Why wasn't it the Daleks vs the Sontarans? Or the Cybermen? Or a thousand other big races?




They mentioned the Zygons' home planet had been destroyed earlier in the Time War, for example, and the Sontarans apparently missed it (Comander Stall's line from The Sontaran Stratagem).


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## Grumpy RPG Reviews (Nov 24, 2013)

Jester Canuck said:


> Plus so much of the horrors of the Time War are things better left as vague horrors, where the imaginations of the fans will always be better. They sound better than they would look.




This is quite true - i was disappointed to learn "the Moment" was simply a puzzle box, rather than an actual moment in time the Doctor had stuffed into his pocket. But these things need to be made simple enough for the audience to follow easily and so often become props or something similar.


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## Herschel (Nov 24, 2013)

It was also a very Moffat ending.


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## Jester David (Nov 24, 2013)

Herschel said:


> It was also a very Moffat ending.



Yes it was. But I like Moffat endings.


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## Umbran (Nov 24, 2013)

Morrus said:


> Or - why just between the Time Lords and the Daleks? Are the Sontarans etc. all chump change? Why wasn't it the Daleks vs the Sontarans? Or the Cybermen? Or a thousand other big races?




I think, in the canon, the others don't have time travel capability.  Other than the occasional vortex manipulator, only the Daleks and Time Lords seem to have the tech.  I would presume that, across the Time War, the two superpowers would have used the others as pawns, which either get used up or shuffled aside into irrelevance, until only the two remain.

I agree that the way that end was portrayed was still pretty unimaginative.  As if, when time is your actual weapon, you'd fight the final battle with laser guns?  I think it could have been done better within the same effects budget, with a touch of thought.


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## Morrus (Nov 24, 2013)

Umbran said:


> I think, in the canon, the others don't have time travel capability.  Other than the occasional vortex manipulator, only the Daleks and Time Lords seem to have the tech.  I would presume that, across the Time War, the two superpowers would have used the others as pawns, which either get used up or shuffled aside into irrelevance, until only the two remain.
> 
> I agree that the way that end was portrayed was still pretty unimaginative.  As if, when time is your actual weapon, you'd fight the final battle with laser guns?  I think it could have been done better within the same effects budget, with a touch of thought.




Yeah. The whole thing with lots of Dalek ships firing lasers at Gallifrey seemed very sub-Death Star, where the tech is traditionally magnitudes beyond that. I mean, Davros and others have deployed universe-destroying weapons before. Shooting laser at targets on a single planet seems a bit pathetic. And surely a single TARDIS outweighs an infinite number of laser-firing saucers?


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## Umbran (Nov 24, 2013)

Morrus said:


> If you haven't seen Davison-directed "The Fiveish Doctors" you haven't seen the anniversary episode yet. Stats Davison, Baker, McCoy, Moffat, Tennant, Smith, Peter Jackson, Ian Mckellan, John Barrowman, RTD, various old companions, and more!
> 
> Available in red button (and will be on iPlayer). No, I don't know where it's showing in foreign countries.




You can watch it here - it is about half an hour long:

http://www.doctorwhotv.co.uk/watch-the-fiveish-doctors-reboot-56047.htm


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## GMforPowergamers (Nov 24, 2013)

Color me disapointed.

1) after the whole build up of him not being the doctor everyone calls hurt the doctor...then at the end when they tell him he really is a doctor it was meaningless.  What did he introduce himself as?

2) It is not the same screwdriver... it has been destroyed at least twice in new who.

3) The lamest battle for a war ever ende dthe time war?!?! Really did they not have any tardis left on galafray? Could no soldiers regenerate?

4)I have pushed for a retuern of the time lords, but what a crappy cop out. Why did tenet risk his life at worlds end to stop them? Oh right no reason....

5) What happened with unit and the talks? 

6) If they had Meagan back for a ten min web ep why not give him a min or two here at the end when all 13 docs showed up?

Over all I give it 4 out of10... I want RTD back

5)


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## MarkB (Nov 24, 2013)

GMforPowergamers said:


> 4)I have pushed for a retuern of the time lords, but what a crappy cop out. Why did tenet risk his life at worlds end to stop them? Oh right no reason....




That one did bother me - this episode does seem to deflate the tension from the End of Time storyline.

However, bear in mind that Rassilon & co. were planning to literally end time, leaving Gallifrey alone in the universe. If ever Gallifrey is brought back in the future, that will likely need to be a plot point that's dealt with.

On the bright side, if Gallifrey does come back, maybe we'll get to see the Master back as well.


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## delericho (Nov 24, 2013)

Yep, loved it. Especially the cameos by Doctors past and future. Interesting, though, that Capaldi makes it "_all_ thirteen". So, he is both the thirteenth Doctor and also the last. Well, barring the inevitable dodge/retcon/handwave, of course!



MarkB said:


> That one did bother me - this episode does seem to deflate the tension from the End of Time storyline.
> 
> However, bear in mind that Rassilon & co. were planning to literally end time, leaving Gallifrey alone in the universe. If ever Gallifrey is brought back in the future, that will likely need to be a plot point that's dealt with.




My completely unsupported theory: the worst excesses of the Time Lords during the war were perpetrated by a rogue group, who first resurrected Rassilon and then were led by him (and probably resurrected the Master as well). And they probably _were_ time locked - just in a different lock from the one Gallifrey just avoided.

Or something like that.



Morrus said:


> Yeah. The whole thing with lots of Dalek ships firing lasers at Gallifrey seemed very sub-Death Star, where the tech is traditionally magnitudes beyond that. I mean, Davros and others have deployed universe-destroying weapons before. Shooting laser at targets on a single planet seems a bit pathetic. And surely a single TARDIS outweighs an infinite number of laser-firing saucers?




Depending on how nasty the war was and how long it had lasted, this makes sense. They've probably used up pretty much all their big weapons. They were probably only a couple of steps short of throwing rocks at one another.


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## Morrus (Nov 24, 2013)

Overnight ratings were 10.21 million (42% audience share).  That's pretty good.  That's just the overnights; usually goes up by a million or two by the time the final consolidated figures are in.

(That's the domestic figure only, of course - the worldwide figures are going to be in the tens of millions; dunno what the cinema figures will be, but that probably won't make much difference - apparently it's 1400 cinemas worldwide - though mine was showing it on 3 screens, all sold out).


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## Umbran (Nov 24, 2013)

delericho said:


> Yep, loved it. Especially the cameos by Doctors past and future. Interesting, though, that Capaldi makes it "_all_ thirteen". So, he is both the thirteenth Doctor and also the last. Well, barring the inevitable dodge/retcon/handwave, of course!




Well, we know that the Time Lords can grant new regeneration, perhaps entire sets of a dozen.  Finding Gallifrey would probably earn hi a gold star and a new set from the people there.



> My completely unsupported theory: the worst excesses of the Time Lords during the war were perpetrated by a rogue group, who first resurrected Rassilon and then were led by him (and probably resurrected the Master as well). And they probably _were_ time locked - just in a different lock from the one Gallifrey just avoided.
> 
> Or something like that.




Or something.  Note that the *children* of Gallifrey were a major issue here, not so much the adults.  The Doctor may feel that getting several billion children back is worth the trouble of a few rat-bastard leaders.  



> Depending on how nasty the war was and how long it had lasted, this makes sense. They've probably used up pretty much all their big weapons. They were probably only a couple of steps short of throwing rocks at one another.




They should have spent a couple of sentences describing that, then.


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## Remus Lupin (Nov 24, 2013)

Actually, I think the events of this episode are reconcilable with "The End of Time" (which they actually had on here in the U.S. right before the replay of the special).

1. The Doctor acquires the moment (as seen in DotD and referenced in TEoT).
2. The Doctor disappears in order to use the Moment (TEoT: "Any sign of the Doctor?" "No, but he still possesses the Moment!").
3. Rassilon and the High Council attempt to avoid annihilation by sending the Master the Sound of Drums to summon them to future, thereby bypassing the effects of the Moment.
4. The Timelord General and his aides are meanwhile somewhere else on Gallifray attempt to repel the Dalek forces.
5. Rassilon and the council are repelled by the Doctor in TEoT, thus finding themselves back in the midst of the time war right before the Doctor presumably uses the Moment.
6. The Doctor(s) then come to the rescue by placing Gallfray into a stasis cube (or something similar).

So, everything we see at the end of DotD occurs after everything we see at the end of TEoT. Though, truth be told, this will probably lead to some awkward conversations between the Doctor and Rassilon if Gallfray is ever found. But maybe we'll get an answer to who the two women were in TEoT (I'm guessing Romana and Susan, though RTD suggested it didn't matter, which it clearly DOES!).


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## Jester David (Nov 24, 2013)

GMforPowergamers said:


> 2) It is not the same screwdriver... it has been destroyed at least twice in new who.



They explain that. Different case, same software. 



GMforPowergamers said:


> 3) The lamest battle for a war ever ended the time war?!?! Really did they not have any tardis left on galafray? Could no soldiers regenerate?



Galifreyans are not the same as Time Lords. Common ground soldiers likely don't have access to TARDISes. And after a few thousands years of war, you'd think the Daleks would be good and bypassing their enemies regenerative capability. 
Time Lords also only regenerate from non-instant death. Really, they regenerate when dying not dead.

Really, the seige of Galifrey wasn't going to "end" the a Time War. The Doctor did. It was the end of the Time War because that's when it ended. 
And the Daleks strike me as the kind who would just go in and shoot everyone rather than use some super weapon because, well, they like shooting people and casualties mean little. 
And even in modern warfare which is based on information, viruses, drone strikes, cruise missiles fired from floating steel islands miles from the target sometimes you still just need to send in troops. 

But, at the end of the day, narrative was why the battle was so contentious. 
The battle need to be emotional for it to make sense that the Doctor to want to kill everyone. There had to be death and the suffering of innocents. There had to be destruction. People had to die on screen and non-combatives had to be endangered. And that's easiest with a traditional battle sequence. 
The battle was not a huge part of the story. 90% of the special was about the Zygons and the Time War was just a background element. They couldn't stop and explain the Time War; they couldn't go into great detail on weaponized paradoxes, unique doomsday devices, and temporal mechanics. You can't sit down and have the Time Lords talk for five minutes explaining how they're boned. Especially when the end result is the same: the planet's effed, everyone still on the planet will suffer and die, and the war will continue, spilling out into the rest of the universe. And especially when all that's relevant to the plot is that they're boned and the Doctor's going to kill everyone. That happens if the Daleks are using lasers or mass driving singularities or using crazy unimaginable weapons. With the result the same, keep it simple. 



GMforPowergamers said:


> 4)I have pushed for a return of the time lords, but what a crappy cop out. Why did tenet risk his life at worlds end to stop them? Oh right no reason....



This is a big dangling plot thread. But it's really set-up for a future return of the Time Lords. Likely Capaldi's Doctor.

My hope is that time is passing for the Time Lords. That they're not technically frozen and have time to reflect and think on what they did during the war.
And, arguably, the Doctors saved Galifrey not the Time Lords. Not every Gallifreyan is a Time Lord.  



GMforPowergamers said:


> 5) What happened with unit and the talks?



They had boring negotiations for an hour and found a compromise. The absence of resolution on this was a bit of an unresolved plotline but I don't know where they could have fit it into the narrative. The only place would have been right as Hurt's a Doctor left. But that delays the conclusion.



GMforPowergamers said:


> Over all I give it 4 out of10... I want RTD back



Meh. He used up his best ideas. And he'd have just ended it with a companion saving the day via some Deus Ex Machina.


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## Morrus (Nov 24, 2013)

So, some more observations:



Re. the "I may have the body of a weak and feeble woman" line - I've now seen some angry folks on Twitter claiming that Elizabeth I would never say such a thing. 
I kinda get the sense that things are going to be very different with Capaldi, the way Hurt constantly referred to to stylistic criticisms - language like "timey wimey", waving sonic screwdrivers around (incidentally, despite his claim, all three shot a dalek with their sonic screwdriver), lines like "why are you so ashamed of being an adult?" and the like.  There has been criticism leveled at the show that since Moffat took over, the number of kids watching has increased, but it has lost a lot of the 30+ yr. old demographic.  The BBC may be addressing that.
If Capaldi is incarnation 13 (including Hurt), he's going to be more cautious:  if he dies he won't regenerate (at present; obviously that'll change, but for now he's going to finddeath a more scary prospect than he ever has before in that it's permanent this time). 
Isn't it easy to get out of a painting?  The Zygons did it; the Doctors did it; the Gallifrey painting is easily escapable. 
Short Xmas Special trailer: 

[video=youtube;DMOOLd_44Mo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMOOLd_44Mo[/video]​


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## Jester David (Nov 24, 2013)

Umbran said:


> They should have spent a couple of sentences describing that, then.



Except it was irrelevant to the episode. The point of the battle was to set-up the Doctor's emotional conflict that drives the episode. The actual battle is a MacGuffin until the very end.


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## Grumpy RPG Reviews (Nov 24, 2013)

Jester Canuck said:


> And the Daleks strike me as the kind who would just go in and shoot everyone rather than use some super weapon because, well, they like shooting people and casualties mean little.




Dalak's seem to be a group with poor grasp of strategy and tactics, aside from smash everything insight and their individual lethal powers usually lets them get away with that approach. Some dalaks (the Emperor dalek, Davros, the Dalak prime minister, the Cult of Skaro) are exceptions, but en masse they seem to be direct thinkers. 

As for the attack on Gallifey, that was more or less the seige of Stalingrad, where both sides had nukes and were about to use them. The soldiers are pouring through the streets and that is theatrical, but other horrors are going on elsewhere. And the civilian leadership is about to kill everyone everywhere forever just out of spite.


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## Remus Lupin (Nov 24, 2013)

Finally got to see "The Five(isn) Doctors" and loved it. My favorite bits were the "John Barrowman is secretly straight" joke and the change in music from the old series tinny synthesizer music to the new series bombastic orchestration music as the three old doctors moved into the new studio.

One question though: Paul McGann was getting a call from his agent about being in "The Night of the Doctor," right? Why then ask about being part of the 50th? He was in it, wasn't he? And why then volunteer to join the protest, unless he was bluffing them?


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## Bedrockgames (Nov 24, 2013)

Umbran said:


> You can watch it here - it is about half an hour long:
> 
> http://www.doctorwhotv.co.uk/watch-the-fiveish-doctors-reboot-56047.htm




Anyone know if this can be viewed on an ipad. It isn't playing on my device.


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## Umbran (Nov 24, 2013)

Jester Canuck said:


> Except it was irrelevant to the episode.




No, it isn't irrelevant - it is there to set up the Doctor's emotional context.  As a context, it has to make sense.  

In addition, for the audience, it was called a "Time War", but the only elements we see look pretty much like conventional war.  There's nothing Time-like about it.  It's just a war, like other wars.  They set an expectation that this war was special, and then failed to live up to that expectation, which isn't good storytelling.

All of which, as noted, could be handled with a couple of sentences, which is the sad part.  This could just be an editing failure - the bit we need may be on the cutting room floor.


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## MarkB (Nov 24, 2013)

Umbran said:


> They should have spent a couple of sentences describing that, then.




They kind-of did. When the general heads to the Omega Vault, it's mentioned that this is where the Time Lords keep all their most terrible, forbidden weapons - except that they aren't forbidden anymore, and they've already used them all, with the exception of the Moment.


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## Jester David (Nov 24, 2013)

Umbran said:


> No, it isn't irrelevant - it is there to set up the Doctor's emotional context.  As a context, it has to make sense.
> 
> In addition, for the audience, it was called a "Time War", but the only elements we see look pretty much like conventional war.  There's nothing Time-like about it.  It's just a war, like other wars.  They set an expectation that this war was special, and then failed to live up to that expectation, which isn't good storytelling.
> 
> All of which, as noted, could be handled with a couple of sentences, which is the sad part.  This could just be an editing failure - the bit we need may be on the cutting room floor.



It's emotionally relevant but, until the end, not plot relevant. You could have cut every single scene of the Siege of Galifrey / Fall of Arcadia and everything would  have continued unaffected. 

Describing a Time War is hard. Try it. Explain what is, how it is different in those couple sentences you say could have handled it. 

They didn't even stop to describe what The Moment actually did either, because the actual nitty gritty effect was irrelevant. 

Plus the "Fall of Arcadia" is not new. It's been referenced a few times. It had been established that there were physical battles in the Time War. And from past comments (such as the 9th/10th Doctor's in _Dalek_) it implied the Daleks had a fleet that was in one central location to be burned.

Really, I didn't expect to see a full representation of Time War here any more than I expected to see a full representation of WW2 in _Saving Private Ryan_. Just a taste. 
And I don't think it would have been as visually or emotionally satisfying to see the Daleks erasing people from existence rather than exterminating them.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Nov 24, 2013)

MarkB said:


> They kind-of did. When the general heads to the Omega Vault, it's mentioned that this is where the Time Lords keep all their most terrible, forbidden weapons - except that they aren't forbidden anymore, and they've already used them all, with the exception of the Moment.




Yup. 

They probably did everything they could have thought of getting the Daleks removed from existence. They failed. The Daleks probably also did everything they could have done to remove the Timelords and Galifrey from existence, but they failed. All these super weapons do is - kinda like it is in real life with nukes - is to avert a conventional war or bring a conventional war to a halt. But since these weapons failed, conventional warfare it was. (Albeit with space ships trying to penetrate sky shields and tin cans with eye stalks and energy weapons fighting soldiers with energy weapons). 

The only thing they hadn't tried yet was the "Rassailon Group" that tried to simply destroy everything but Galifrey, and the Moment (the latter possibly because it refused to "help", or no one dared to ask). And finally, 400 years after the deciding moment in war, the Doctor finally found the third solution.


----------



## Grumpy RPG Reviews (Nov 24, 2013)

We will probably get a bit more of the Time War when Gallifrey is returned to the series. Which is unfortunate - the series worked better when Gallifrey was destroyed.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Nov 24, 2013)

Grumpy RPG Reviews said:


> We will probably get a bit more of the Time War when Gallifrey is returned to the series. Which is unfortunate - the series worked better when Gallifrey was destroyed.



Why do you say that - we haven't seen a series post-Galifrey-Return yet.


----------



## Morrus (Nov 24, 2013)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Why do you say that - we haven't seen a series post-Galifrey-Return yet.




He must be referring to the classic series pre-Gallifrey-destruction.


----------



## Remus Lupin (Nov 24, 2013)

Well, the advantages to bringing back Gallifrey would include being able to bring back in some classic time lord characters, Romana primary among them. But the Time Lords did seem to gum up the works a lot when they were around. But it does allow the writers to break away from the doctor as "lonely god."


----------



## Nellisir (Nov 24, 2013)

Morrus said:


> I thought this x1000%. The Time War turns out to be some people shooting at daleks with laser guns.  Agreed, completely.  This is there RRD's glorious imagination was failed by Moffat's pragmatism.




I think this in just about every episode of _Doctor Who_  (and almost every episode of _Marvels Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D._ so far as well.).  They could have shown planets disappearing, the stars going out; galaxies sputtering down like candles...IN ADDITION to the "on the ground" scenes, but they didn't.  Frankly, every battle scene I see in the series looks like it was cribbed from WWII. Sonic screwdrivers seem to be good at dismantling Daleks; can they not pass out a few of those? Or is uber-hi-tech really laser lights and crude helmets?

And the stone dust in the Undergallery...sheesh.  They opened the door and I thought "geez, do they only dust once a millenia?" How does that not set off alarms?


----------



## Bedrockgames (Nov 24, 2013)

Remus Lupin said:


> Well, the advantages to bringing back Gallifrey would include being able to bring back in some classic time lord characters, Romana primary among them. But the Time Lords did seem to gum up the works a lot when they were around. But it does allow the writers to break away from the doctor as "lonely god."




I think bringing Gallifrey is a needed shake up. I've enjoyed the lone timelord to this point but I dont know that it could be sustained much longer.


----------



## GMforPowergamers (Nov 24, 2013)

Jester Canuck said:


> Describing a Time War is hard. Try it. Explain what is, how it is different in those couple sentences you say could have handled it.




Ok, challenge excepted.

In the height of the time war, fleets of war war ships moved freely through all four dimensions, the Dalek had the Time lords out numbered ten thousand to one, but Tardises could be flown by 3-6 time lords where Dalek ships took more then a hundred times that.

War Tardises can morph mid flight creating new levels of armor and weapons as they go. So the Dalek blast through and more just appears. Dalek try to breach enogh to board tardisis, meanwhile Tardises have to not only destroy the ships, but then fight Dalke that can leave there ship and keep fighting.

Imagine weaponized blackholes and disintegrating blast being exchanged.

Now intersperce lesser races like Cybermen and humans fighting BOTH Dalek and Time Lords. Then you have someone turn the star of the space system into a black hole... 90% of the Tardises teleport through space time and 50% of the Dalek escape, but 0% of the humans and cybermen... then have hurt Doctor (I call the Valiyard) mention that there where 3 enhabited planets each with over a billion people, and 8 space stations each with a few hundred thousand people, plus the fleets lost..,

Then reveled that is a standard time lord tactic, fall back blow the whole system...

Next up when having soldier fighting Dalek show them dying..ALOT, but everyonce in a while have the commander get shot then regen into a new body. Have the grunts complain that 'regular' galafrian troops don't get thirteen tries.


----------



## GMforPowergamers (Nov 24, 2013)

extra ideas

have people just wink out, or change and have hurt's doctor explain that time is being rewritten.


----------



## Morrus (Nov 24, 2013)

GMforPowergamers said:


> Ok, challenge excepted.
> 
> In the height of the time war, fleets of war war ships moved freely through all four dimensions, the Dalek had the Time lords out numbered ten thousand to one, but Tardises could be flown by 3-6 time lords where Dalek ships took more then a hundred times that.
> 
> ...




Morphing armour and weaponized black holes and regenerations aren't a _time _war.  They're a regular (hi-tech) war.


----------



## GMforPowergamers (Nov 24, 2013)

Morrus said:


> Morphing armour and weaponized black holes and regenerations aren't a _time _war.  They're a regular (hi-tech) war.




I see them being the same as a hand pistol in a modern war. No they aren't the big weapons, but they are the common soldier's of the war, what makes it a time war is that both sides of it are moveing in 4d (time and space) witch leave whole timelines being wrecked. Again at 12:01.01 est our sun is turned from yellow to full blackhole, at 12:01.30 the fight is over, but people without 4d movement had no chance... the TARDIS almost all escape that by rewinding.

Imagin running battles that start in dinosaur times and end after the sun super nova's, but is one running fight with peoppel moveing through time.


----------



## GMforPowergamers (Nov 24, 2013)

Morrus said:


> Morphing armour and weaponized black holes and regenerations aren't a _time _war.  They're a regular (hi-tech) war.




I see them being the same as a hand pistol in a modern war. No they aren't the big weapons, but they are the common soldier's of the war, what makes it a time war is that both sides of it are moveing in 4d (time and space) witch leave whole timelines being wrecked. Again at 12:01.01 est our sun is turned from yellow to full blackhole, at 12:01.30 the fight is over, but people without 4d movement had no chance... the TARDIS almost all escape that by rewinding.

Imagin running battles that start in dinosaur times and end after the sun super nova's, but is one running fight with peoppel moveing through time.


----------



## Grumpy RPG Reviews (Nov 25, 2013)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Why do you say that - we haven't seen a series post-Galifrey-Return yet.




I like the tone of the show when the Doctor is the only Time Lord, because as pointed out the other Time Lords can muck up things a bit and yes this was in the original run of the show. However I doubt the return will happen until the end of the Capaldi and Moffett run.


----------



## Grumpy RPG Reviews (Nov 25, 2013)

GMforPowergamers said:


> Imagin running battles that start in dinosaur times and end after the sun super nova's, but is one running fight with peoppel moveing through time.




Actually I would argue the battlefield, not the battle, is "dinosaur times at one side and the sun goes supernova at the other end", with the participants moving about constantly - almost erratically - trying to get into a better position and thinking in such five dimensional tactics and strategies is complicated.


----------



## trappedslider (Nov 25, 2013)

I think this is JUST ONE part of the over all war...comparing this would be like saying Omaha Beach was D-day instead of it jsut being a part of the over all event...


----------



## trappedslider (Nov 25, 2013)

http://www.giantfreakinrobot.com/scifi/day-doctor-50-loved-didnt.html  GFR's top 50 moments from it


----------



## The_Silversword (Nov 25, 2013)

I was most intrigued by the ending with you-know-Who (dont want to spoil it for anyone who hasnt seen it yet) and his comment about revisiting familiar faces or something like that. This leads me to believe that at some point the Doctor will get the ability to regenerate into previous incarnations of himself.


----------



## Morrus (Nov 25, 2013)

The_Silversword said:


> I was most intrigued by the ending with you-know-Who (dont want to spoil it for anyone who hasnt seen it yet) and his comment about revisiting familiar faces or something like that. This leads me to believe that at some point the Doctor will get the ability to regenerate into previous incarnations of himself.




Don't worry; it's aired, and if anyone has made it 7 pages into this thread, they're well and truly spoiled already!


----------



## Morrus (Nov 25, 2013)

So we've seen the Fall of Aracadia.  As some point out, it's just part of the Time War - and is not even the biggest Gallifreyan city. 

The events of The End of Time (with Timothy Dalton) were occuring simultaneously.  The Time Lords mention this - they refer to the High Council having it own plans, and that those plans had failed.

So we've seen:
Genesis of the Daleks (the opening salvo in the Time War?)
The Medusa Cascade
The Fall of Arcadia
The Ultimate Sanction (what Timothy Dalton tried to do)
The Genesis Ark
The Moment/Galaxy Eater

We haven't seen:

The Nightmare Child
The Could've-Been-King and his Army of Meanwhiles and Neverweres
The Degradations of Skaro
The Horde of Travesties
The Deathsmiths of Goth
The Gates of Elysium (where Davros allegedly died in battle with The Doctor, but didn't)


----------



## PigKnight (Nov 25, 2013)

I believe that The Gates of Elysium would fall under the jurisdiction of the War Doctor rather than a numbered Doctor.


----------



## Alaxk Knight of Galt (Nov 25, 2013)

I simply missed Eccleston.  Hurt was fine, but he was clearly standing in for Eccleston's Doctor.  I kept hoping for the 9th to drop in.  Oh well /sadpanda


----------



## Umbran (Nov 25, 2013)

The_Silversword said:


> This leads me to believe that at some point the Doctor will get the ability to regenerate into previous incarnations of himself.




Given that the previous incarnations have aged, that would be difficult.  I guess in theory they can cast folks who look vaguely like them to wear the old costumes, but really, is that they way to go?

I think it is a hint that they may be allowing those previous actors to take cameo or guest roles going forward.


----------



## Bedrockgames (Nov 25, 2013)

Umbran said:


> Given that the previous incarnations have aged, that would be difficult.  I guess in theory they can cast folks who look vaguely like them to wear the old costumes, but really, is that they way to go?
> 
> d.




You could get away with it for number 8, 11 and 10 without much fuss i think (9 too but doubt that will ever happen). They're all young enough still it could work.. I imagine baker is too old to return to television, but the remaining doctors could come back and just have them regenerate aged. My guess is most of the fans would understand the impossibility of having them return as younger versions of themselves. 

Here is my theory if they do start having him take his older forms again: any doctor whose actor is still alive, they kind of have to either not do that doctor or use the original actor. I just think fans would be too outraged. But if the actor is dead, they can get away with hiring a younger actor. I dont think anyone would have flinched if theh had an actor playing the first doctor in a cameo for the fiftieth for example (and I mean a proper cameo, not standing silent on a chariot of cloud vapor).


----------



## Remus Lupin (Nov 25, 2013)

Even David Tennent looked noticeably older in DotD, and Paul McGann is of course 20 years older than when they did the movie. I suppose that just comes with the territory when you cast younger men. But McGann still worked for me as 8 in the minisode and Tennent wasn't distractingly older looking. But Colin Baker ... Yeah. That wouldn't work. Though Sylvester McCoy would have been just fine I think.


----------



## Bagpuss (Nov 25, 2013)

Morrus said:


> So, some more observations:
> 
> 
> 
> Re. the "I may have the body of a weak and feeble woman" line - I've now seen some angry folks on Twitter claiming that Elizabeth I would never say such a thing.


----------



## delericho (Nov 25, 2013)

Bedrockgames said:


> I dont think anyone would have flinched if theh had an actor playing the first doctor in a cameo for the fiftieth for example (and I mean a proper cameo, not standing silent on a chariot of cloud vapor).




They did of course recast the First for "The Five Doctors", all those years ago. Actually, I was half expecting David Bradley to show up in the special.


----------



## Morrus (Nov 25, 2013)

Remus Lupin said:


> Even David Tennent looked noticeably older in DotD,




I don't think he did, particularly.  Older than when he started, yeah, but not than when he finished.  He's just in HD for the first time - everybody looks older in HD!  Even Smith!


----------



## Morrus (Nov 25, 2013)

delericho said:


> They did of course recast the First for "The Five Doctors", all those years ago. Actually, I was half expecting David Bradley to show up in the special.




Yeah, David Bradley would have been cool.


----------



## Umbran (Nov 25, 2013)

delericho said:


> They did of course recast the First for "The Five Doctors", all those years ago. Actually, I was half expecting David Bradley to show up in the special.




Yes, and they happened to find someone who looked the part, and had the chops to do the job superbly.  How often will they get that lucky?



			
				Bedrockgames said:
			
		

> I imagine baker is too old to return to television




Except for how 



Spoiler



he was the one who delivered the line we are discussing!



The later ones showed in the Five(ish) Doctors that they are still spry enough to do at least a bit.


----------



## ggroy (Nov 25, 2013)

Remus Lupin said:


> Well, the advantages to bringing back Gallifrey would include being able to bring back in some classic time lord characters, Romana primary among them. But the Time Lords did seem to gum up the works a lot when they were around. But it does allow the writers to break away from the doctor as "lonely god."




If they bring back the Time Lords in series 8 (or later), wonder if it will start to resemble a sci-fi action version of "The West Wing" or "House of Cards".


----------



## Bedrockgames (Nov 25, 2013)

Umbran said:


> Yes, and they happened to find someone who looked the part, and had the chops to do the job superbly.  How often will they get that lucky?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yes, I do realize. But to do a full series at Baker's age, even though I would love to see it, seems too much to ask.


----------



## Umbran (Nov 25, 2013)

Bedrockgames said:


> Yes, I do realize. But to do a full series at Baker's age, even though I would love to see it, seems too much to ask.




Ah, okay.  Yes, I see what you mean, there.  I wouldn't expect a full series - thus my suggestion about cameo or guest roles.

The one thing about that is that it seems like a classic "jumping the shark" - doing something spectacular to get viewers.

Aside from that, I see an issue they may want to deal with in the "Doctor Saves Gallifrey" plotline: There are Daleks back in the Universe.  If he saves Gallifrey, there will be Time Lords back in the Universe.  What's to prevent a repeat of the Time War?  Especially with people like Rassilon around?


----------



## delericho (Nov 25, 2013)

Umbran said:


> Yes, and they happened to find someone who looked the part, and had the chops to do the job superbly.  How often will they get that lucky?




I was merely noting that it had been done; I wasn't advocating any particular agenda - mostly because I don't have one.


----------



## Herschel (Nov 25, 2013)

Remus Lupin said:


> One question though: Paul McGann was getting a call from his agent about being in "The Night of the Doctor," right? Why then ask about being part of the 50th? He was in it, wasn't he? And why then volunteer to join the protest, unless he was bluffing them?




He said 'I'm in, unless I'm filming' which gave me a nice laugh. In my mind, yeah it was a private/inside joke that he was involved.


----------



## Mallus (Nov 25, 2013)

Umbran said:


> What's to prevent a repeat of the Time War?  Especially with people like Rassilon around?



The obvious answer is: the Doctor and (his? her?) companion(s)!

edit: as for my reaction to the anniversary special, I'll be brief. Moffat's still got it.


----------



## MarkB (Nov 25, 2013)

Morrus said:


> So we've seen the Fall of Aracadia.  As some point out, it's just part of the Time War - and is not even the biggest Gallifreyan city.
> 
> The events of The End of Time (with Timothy Dalton) were occuring simultaneously.  The Time Lords mention this - they refer to the High Council having it own plans, and that those plans had failed.
> 
> ...




I'd also consider the events of Remembrance of the Daleks as an early battle in the Time War. Two rival sets of Daleks time-travel to 1960s Earth to capture the Hand of Omega, a remote stellar manipulator device capable of granting them Time Lord level time-manipulation capability, the Doctor sets it up to backfire on them and wipe out Skaro's star system, but Davros escapes the destruction of the Dalek mothership, perhaps with sufficient knowledge to successfully reproduce the experiment himself.

Certainly, this was one of the events later re-written during the Time War, as Skaro was referenced as still existing during the new series.


----------



## Morrus (Nov 25, 2013)

So the main thing that can go wrong now, IMO, is a missed opportunity.

I would think an entire final Doctor story arc is ripe for dramatic  potential; handwaving it with a line, a scene, even an episode, would be  under-serving it.  There's so much potential there for a story of how  the Doctor faces his death and how that gets changed.  

Then again, I guess Tennant and Smith both did "facing his death" segments. So maybe they feel it's played out.

The Xmas Special trailer has a lot of mention of Trenzalore, which is  where he's eventually buried, and the fall of the 11th, and that  "Silence Will Fall!" line seems to be revisited.  Obviously that is  going to tie in.  It SOUNDS from all the stuff Moffat has been waffling about over the last few days like they're pitching Smith as the 13th  (inc. Hurt and Tennant's wasted clone hand regen) with Capaldi as either  something new, or a 14th after a change in the rules.

BUT - there is one flaw with that.  In that Impossible Astronaut death,  Smith started to regenerate after being shot (it got interrupted by the  second shot - there was a lot made of that).  So he CAN regenerate.  So  he can't be the 13th.

tl;dr version:  I dunno.


----------



## trappedslider (Nov 25, 2013)

I think this is the funniest moment from the 50th [video=youtube;IcbkWk10MOo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcbkWk10MOo[/video]


----------



## Morrus (Nov 25, 2013)

Nah. The funniest moment was "It wasn't locked."


----------



## Jesters Hand (Nov 25, 2013)

WHoo HOO!! My Theater is right on the way home, big meeting of local gamers out front too, plus all the people form cloak and blaster (gameing pub) too


----------



## trappedslider (Nov 25, 2013)

Morrus said:


> Nah. The funniest moment was "It wasn't locked."




Ok..then the bunny is moment number 2 lol


----------



## MarkB (Nov 25, 2013)

Morrus said:


> So the main thing that can go wrong now, IMO, is a missed opportunity.
> 
> I would think an entire final Doctor story arc is ripe for dramatic  potential; handwaving it with a line, a scene, even an episode, would be  under-serving it.  There's so much potential there for a story of how  the Doctor faces his death and how that gets changed.
> 
> ...




Really? I thought they pretty much established them as "All thirteen!" when Capaldi's Eyebrows showed up during the climactic scene.



> BUT - there is one flaw with that.  In that Impossible Astronaut death,  Smith started to regenerate after being shot (it got interrupted by the  second shot - there was a lot made of that).  So he CAN regenerate.  So  he can't be the 13th.




The Doctor didn't start to regenerate in that scene - the tesselacted Doctor-shaped spaceship he was inside simulated an attempted regeneration for the benefit of onlookers.


----------



## Morrus (Nov 25, 2013)

MarkB said:


> Really? I thought they pretty much established them as "All thirteen!" when Capaldi's Eyebrows showed up during the climactic scene.
> .




Moffat''s says quite a but about in the last couple of days. Tennant's hand-clone alter ego counts, so there's a wasted regen. Smith 's the final one (normally) possible


----------



## trappedslider (Nov 25, 2013)

on the matter of the numbering 

Speaking at the Doctor Who Celebration convention over the weekend, Moffat said: “He has no more ever called himself the 11th Doctor than he would call himself Matt Smith. The Doctor doesn’t know off the top of his head.

“If you worry about such things, and I do, then I specifically said John Hurt’s Doctor doesn’t use the title. Smith’s Doctor is in his 12th body but he’s the 11th Doctor, however there is no such character as the 11th Doctor – he’s just the Doctor, that’s what he calls himself.

“The numbering doesn’t matter, except for those lists that you and I have been making for many years. So I’ve given you the option of not counting John Hurt numerically – he’s the War Doctor.”

On the regeneration issue, he said: “Paul McGann turns into John Hurt so they’re not the same incarnation. He used up another regeneration and I expect he’ll be in trouble shortly – you can’t break rules laid down in ‘The Deadly Assassin’.”


----------



## Morrus (Nov 25, 2013)

Yup 11 + Hurt + Tennant Clone = 13. Capaldi makes 14. He said much the same when I was there on Friday.


----------



## Bedrockgames (Nov 25, 2013)

I really do like the way moffat plays with the audience:



> Moffat stated that “The 12 regenerations limit is a central part of Doctor Who mythology – science fiction is all about rules, you can’t just casually break them. So if the Doctor can never change again, what’s Peter Capaldi doing in the Christmas special?”


----------



## ggroy (Nov 25, 2013)

Morrus said:


> The Xmas Special trailer has a lot of mention of Trenzalore, which is  where he's eventually buried, and the fall of the 11th, and that  "Silence Will Fall!" line seems to be revisited.  Obviously that is  going to tie in.  It SOUNDS from all the stuff Moffat has been waffling about over the last few days like they're pitching Smith as the 13th  (inc. Hurt and Tennant's wasted clone hand regen) *with Capaldi as either  something new*, or a 14th after a change in the rules.




Wonder if Moffat's intention is to do a complete reboot, and start anew with Capaldi as a new 1st doctor. (ie. Throw out all the existing canon and continuity of the past 50 years).  

Perhaps similar to JJ Abrams rebooting Star Trek in the 2009 movie.


----------



## MarkB (Nov 25, 2013)

ggroy said:


> Wonder if Moffat's intention is to do a complete reboot, and start anew with Capaldi as a new 1st doctor. (ie. Throw out all the existing canon and continuity of the past 50 years).
> 
> Perhaps similar to JJ Abrams rebooting Star Trek in the 2009 movie.




Since Capaldi's already appeared (well, bits of him) alongside all the other incarnations, that seems unlikely.


----------



## Umbran (Nov 25, 2013)

Morrus said:


> Yup 11 + Hurt + Tennant Clone = 13. Capaldi makes 14. He said much the same when I was there on Friday.




Well, that means getting around the rule becomes the topic of the X-mas special, now doesn't it?


----------



## Morrus (Nov 25, 2013)

Umbran said:


> Well, that means getting around the rule becomes the topic of the X-mas special, now doesn't it?




I guess so!


----------



## Grumpy RPG Reviews (Nov 25, 2013)

Some current articles suggest Smith's Doctor is the last as the other regenerations have been used, but Moffatt and company have deliberately deceived the fan base before to keep show surprises hidden. Gallifrey will probably return at the end of Moffett and Capaldi's run and the issue of additional regenerations will be settled then in some manner. The Christmas special will just be a gift to all the Smith-haters out there.


----------



## Nellisir (Nov 25, 2013)

I suppose I could check my DVR, but I don't remember seeing a disembodied hand flying a TARDIS.    (I know, I know...but that's how I keep picturing it.)


----------



## Plane Sailing (Nov 26, 2013)

MarkB said:


> My only disappointment was that, having finally got to see the Time War, all that we really saw of it was one final, very straightforward engagement.
> 
> This was supposed to be the war that shattered the universe, time being rewritten over and over again by either side, the escalation of paradoxes conjuring into being strange and terrible threats - the Nightmare Child, the Could've-been King, the Horde of Travesties. But we didn't get to see any of that.
> 
> What we did get to see, I enjoyed a lot. I'd just have liked it a little more epic. Ah well, maybe they'll touch on those parts if they ever do get round to telling the story of Gallifrey's return.






Morrus said:


> I thought this x1000%. The Time War turns out to be some people shooting at daleks with laser guns.  Agreed, completely.  This is there RRD's glorious imagination was failed by Moffat's pragmatism.




This was my only big disappointment with it too; it was pretty, but was just spaceships attacking a planet. I was expecting/hoping for something much more time shattering.


----------



## GMforPowergamers (Nov 26, 2013)

Why would the hand/clone count? I also have the fact that almost half the regens acted 'odd' and could be argued not to count

1 into 2 counts
2 into 3 was forced by councle may not count (Did they force him by overloading or using one of his?)
3 into 4 wasn't working until another time lord jumpstarted it (Did the doc give up a life or his mentor?)
4 into 5 is normal
5 into 6 involves merging with a shadow out of time (The watcher...)
6 into 7 normal
7 into 8 normal
8 into 9 (Hurt who is for the whole time we see him called the Doctor nothing else) drinks the elxier that was made by magic witches with the flame of eternial life out side power could easily be there..
9 into 10 is weird on multi levels... what triggered it???
10 into 11 is after absorbing the vortex energy, so could he have used some of that energy instead of a regen?
11 into 12 was sad... I almost cryed, but I can't find an excuse for it not to count.
12 to 13 we are yet to see.

Now if you want to count extra the hand AND he used regen enrgy on River... then again she gave him 'all her regens'

so what is the number? well what ever they want...


----------



## Kramodlog (Nov 26, 2013)

Doesn't Capaldi's age show that he is sort of a new line of Doctors? Docs have been growing younger with each regeneration, not older (Hurt was shown in a reflection when he was "born" and looked young).


----------



## Janx (Nov 26, 2013)

Just saw it at the theatre today.

It was good.  Nice fix for the doctor's dilemma.

Kind of a shame they couldn't fit Ecleston and McGann in for a bit of live action since they both be alive and reasonably spy.

And we also see that the doctor has 2 wives now.


----------



## ggroy (Nov 26, 2013)

Janx said:


> Kind of a shame they couldn't fit Ecleston and McGann in for a bit of live action since they both be alive and reasonably spy.




McGann was in the online minisode "The Night of the Doctor".  It's a prequel to "The Day of the Doctor".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Night_of_the_Doctor


----------



## The_Silversword (Nov 26, 2013)

Am I the only one who thinks that the painting IS Gallifrey? I mean it just seems so obvious to me, I mean Gallifrey is supposed to be stuck in a moment in time, and how do they explain the painting? But the Doctor just seems so clueless goin on about how hes going to find Gallifrey, when hes staring right at it all the while. You know for being a 900+ year old super-genius, the Doctor can be a bit slow sometimes.


----------



## MarkB (Nov 26, 2013)

The_Silversword said:


> Am I the only one who thinks that the painting IS Gallifrey? I mean it just seems so obvious to me, I mean Gallifrey is supposed to be stuck in a moment in time, and how do they explain the painting? But the Doctor just seems so clueless goin on about how hes going to find Gallifrey, when hes staring right at it all the while. You know for being a 900+ year old super-genius, the Doctor can be a bit slow sometimes.




Given the painting's full name and the person who's looking after it, it does seem like a strong possibility.


----------



## Morrus (Nov 26, 2013)

goldomark said:


> Doesn't Capaldi's age show that he is sort of a new line of Doctors? Docs have been growing younger with each regeneration, not older (Hurt was shown in a reflection when he was "born" and looked young).




Eh? How do you figure? 

Hartnell 55
Troughton 46 (down)
Pertwee 50 (up)
Tom Baker 40 (down)
Davison 29 (down)
Colin Baker 40 (up)
McCoy 44 (up)
McGann 36 (down)
Eccleston 41 (up)
Tennant 34 (down)
Smith 27 (down)
Capaldi 55 (up)

6 went younger, 5 went older. Pretty even


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## Morrus (Nov 26, 2013)

The_Silversword said:


> Am I the only one who thinks that the painting IS Gallifrey? I mean it just seems so obvious to me, I mean Gallifrey is supposed to be stuck in a moment in time, and how do they explain the painting? But the Doctor just seems so clueless goin on about how hes going to find Gallifrey, when hes staring right at it all the while. You know for being a 900+ year old super-genius, the Doctor can be a bit slow sometimes.




He knows it is. He went into it and everything. He explained that. That was his plan; he used 13 TARDISes to do it.

The problem isn't finding it. It's how to release it without the war continuing from that moment.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Nov 26, 2013)

The_Silversword said:


> Am I the only one who thinks that the painting IS Gallifrey? I mean it just seems so obvious to me, I mean Gallifrey is supposed to be stuck in a moment in time, and how do they explain the painting? But the Doctor just seems so clueless goin on about how hes going to find Gallifrey, when hes staring right at it all the while. You know for being a 900+ year old super-genius, the Doctor can be a bit slow sometimes.




Well, he spend 400 years of Sonic Screwdriver CPU Cycles to open an unlocked door.

On the other hand, he wrote a few numerals on a wall and a few hundred years later someone used that numerals to open his door shortly after he wrote those numerals.

So I dunno.


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## Morrus (Nov 26, 2013)

Deleted scene, plus "Making Of" featurette.

[video=youtube;1UVt0NF5j0g]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=1UVt0NF5j0g[/video]

[video=youtube;mgMdxFALr6c]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgMdxFALr6c&feature=player_embedded[/video]


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## Umbran (Nov 26, 2013)

Janx said:


> Kind of a shame they couldn't fit Ecleston and McGann in for a bit of live action since they both be alive and reasonably spy.




Word on the street is that Eccelston was asked, and declined to take part.


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## Umbran (Nov 26, 2013)

Morrus said:


> He knows it is. He went into it and everything. He explained that. That was his plan; he used 13 TARDISes to do it.




I think you might be wrong, there, Morrus.  I think the context and words at the end is pretty clear that Gallifrey itself is still hidden, and must be found.  _Gallifrey Falls No More_ is the Battle of Arcadia, not the whole of the planet.  It is supposed to be a breadcrumb.



> The problem isn't finding it. It's how to release it without the war continuing from that moment.




No - the war doesn't continue from that moment.  They took the planet, but left the Dalek fleet in the sky to destroy itself in crossfire.

With Daleks and Time Lords in play, I think they have to worry about history repeating itself *metaphorically*, having a Second Time War, but not the war continuing directly from that moment.


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## Morrus (Nov 26, 2013)

Umbran said:


> I think you might be wrong, there, Morrus.  I think the context and words at the end is pretty clear that Gallifrey itself is still hidden, and must be found.  _Gallifrey Falls No More_ is the Battle of Arcadia, not the whole of the planet.  It is supposed to be a breadcrumb.




Perhaps - but I didn't get any sense of "We'll use these 13 TARDISes in this eleaborate plan I've been plotting for 1200 years to .. err... I don't know what!"  I definitely got the sense he knew exactly what he was doing.  Maybe I need to watch it again!



> No - the war doesn't continue from that moment.  They took the planet, but left the Dalek fleet in the sky to destroy itself in crossfire.




Ah, very true.


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## Janx (Nov 26, 2013)

Umbran said:


> Word on the street is that Eccelston was asked, and declined to take part.




Thats what I figured.  I reckon if I was a past Doctor, I could spare a day to shoot a few lines for the 50th anniversary episode.


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## Morrus (Nov 26, 2013)

Yeah, I have to admit that my estimation of Eccleston has gone down a lot due to that. 

Then again, I'm sure they could have taken his regeneration into Tennant and simply inserted his bit from that into the Hurt-Eccleston regeneration.  They must have had some other reason they didn't do that (they used a clip of him in the 13 Doctors in TARDISes scene).


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## trappedslider (Nov 26, 2013)

My read on the whole thing is that there was a lot going on behind the scenes during  Eccleston's time on Doctor Who and then there's this article that basically collects some other info http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/...by-Christopher-Eccleston-regarding-Doctor-Who


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## Grumpy RPG Reviews (Nov 26, 2013)

The_Silversword said:


> Am I the only one who thinks that the painting IS Gallifrey?




I wonder how many people will go to the National Gallery and ask to see the painting. I also wonder how staff at the gallery will respond to these questions.


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## trappedslider (Nov 26, 2013)

Grumpy RPG Reviews said:


> I wonder how many people will go to the National Gallery and ask to see the painting. I also wonder how staff at the gallery will respond to these questions.




"It's in the archives"  bahahah


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## Morrus (Nov 26, 2013)

trappedslider said:


> My read on the whole thing is that there was a lot going on behind the scenes during  Eccleston's time on Doctor Who and then there's this article that basically collects some other info http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/...by-Christopher-Eccleston-regarding-Doctor-Who




Yeah, in short he had a falling out with RTD (which RTD has admitted to, too, a couple of times).  But RTD has nothing to do with the show any more.  The only people Eccleston is hurting (i use the word in its loosest sense) are his fans.


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## Umbran (Nov 26, 2013)

Morrus said:


> Perhaps - but I didn't get any sense of "We'll use these 13 TARDISes in this eleaborate plan I've been plotting for 1200 years to .. err... I don't know what!"  I definitely got the sense he knew exactly what he was doing.  Maybe I need to watch it again!




Like you need an excuse to watch it again? 

The issue isn't that the Doctor didn't know what he was doing.  He knew, but if he remembered, he'd not be what he now is.

When we first see Eccelston, he think's he's effectively destroyed both the Time Lords and the Daleks.  My memory (which could be wrong) is that the implication was that he'd put in the Time Lock, so that, aside from himself, they pretty much never existed.  Most folk didn't remember what a Time Lord was - not just due to passage of time for mere mortals, but because he'd pretty much (but not quite totally) erased them from history.  

The Daleks we see first are ones that, one way or another, avoided the Time Lock.

Now, to not disrupt history, and to ensure he stays the hoopy frood we all love, the Doctor cannot remember what he did.  And the Time Lock on all these events must also still be in place to explain the non-existence and re-appearance of Daleks. So, while the Doctor went and hid Gallifrey, he doesn't know where he put it, and any evidence that it was done is in the Time Lock!

That's where the Curator* and _Gallifrey Falls No More_ come in.  It is one bit of Gallifrey in the final hours that sits *outside* the Time Lock, where the Doctor can eventually see it, and the Curator can plant the idea in his head that the rest of Gallifrey is also *outside* the Time Lock, but in stasis and tucked away somewhere.  



*Upon thinking - the Curator is probably like the Valeyard or the Watcher - he's the final distillation of the Doctor, retired, that can wear the Doctor's past faces, though aged.  Thus, they can have the past actors (or lookalikes) play the role of the Curator from time to time....


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## Morrus (Nov 26, 2013)

Umbran said:


> Like you need an excuse to watch it again?




I know!  This'll be time #5! 



> The issue isn't that the Doctor didn't know what he was doing.  He knew, but if he remembered, he'd not be what he now is.
> 
> When we first see Eccelston, he think's he's effectively destroyed both the Time Lords and the Daleks.  My memory (which could be wrong) is that the implication was that he'd put in the Time Lock, so that, aside from himself, they pretty much never existed.  Most folk didn't remember what a Time Lord was - not just due to passage of time for mere mortals, but because he'd pretty much (but not quite totally) erased them from history.
> 
> ...




I don't think that's right.  Hurt, Eccleston, and Tennant all forgot, but not Smith.  At least that's how I read it.  From TDoTD onwards, he knows Gallifrey is OK.


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## Janx (Nov 26, 2013)

Morrus said:


> Yeah, I have to admit that my estimation of Eccleston has gone down a lot due to that.
> 
> Then again, I'm sure they could have taken his regeneration into Tennant and simply inserted his bit from that into the Hurt-Eccleston regeneration.  They must have had some other reason they didn't do that (they used a clip of him in the 13 Doctors in TARDISes scene).




I see Doctor Who as the BBC equivalent to working on a Star Trek show.

It's more than just another show on the resume.  It has a life after your stint is done.  Fans, conventions, interviews, 10 year incremental anniversary specials, etc.

By the time Eccleston came around, this shouldn't have been a surprise that there's more Doctor Who stuff to do after you shoot your last episode.

Kind of like being a former Miss America, each one is expected to continue being a good role model and give a speech now and then.


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## Umbran (Nov 26, 2013)

Morrus said:


> I don't think that's right.  Hurt, Eccleston, and Tennant all forgot, but not Smith.  At least that's how I read it.  From TDoTD onwards, he knows Gallifrey is OK.




I'll have to rewatch it myself (I only saw it the once).  But I recall the quote as him having to *find* Gallifrey.  I can see an argument for the most recent Doctor being able to remember what happened, but then that quote doesn't make any sense at all - he'd remember where he put it...

Oh, unless he had one of his *prior* selves (say Tennant or Hurt, though any other than Smith or Capaldi would do) actually do the hiding!  Then, Smith can know it is safe, but still not know where it is hidden, because that part didn't happen in Smiths' presence, so he cannot remember it.

Does that sound reasonable?


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## Morrus (Nov 26, 2013)

Umbran said:


> I'll have to rewatch it myself (I only saw it the once).  But I recall the quote as him having to *find* Gallifrey.  I can see an argument for the most recent Doctor being able to remember what happened, but then that quote doesn't make any sense at all - he'd remember where he put it...
> 
> Oh, unless he had one of his *prior* selves (say Tennant or Hurt, though any other than Smith or Capaldi would do) actually do the hiding!  Then, Smith can know it is safe, but still not know where it is hidden, because that part didn't happen in Smiths' presence, so he cannot remember it.
> 
> Does that sound reasonable?




Problem with that is we're now starting to write our own narrative to explain it.  I'll watch it again and see if we missed anything!


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## Morrus (Nov 26, 2013)

Janx said:


> I see Doctor Who as the BBC equivalent to working on a Star Trek show.
> 
> It's more than just another show on the resume.  It has a life after your stint is done.  Fans, conventions, interviews, 10 year incremental anniversary specials, etc.
> 
> ...




Tom Baker did something similar for years.  Got irritated with people who thought of him just as The Doctor, refused to appear in multi-Doctor episodes, etc.

In later years he admitted that was all a mistake, and that he was a fool to have acted like that.  He said that in truth those years working on the show were the happiest of his life.

Eccleston, of course, famously hated his time on the show due to his personality clash with RTD.


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## Remus Lupin (Nov 26, 2013)

I'm slightly unclear on how it is that all of the Doctors were able to a) converge on Gaillfrey in order to "hide" it in the manner they did as well as b) how all the doctors back to #1 were able to be in on the project of calculating the method of hiding it. I could understand how 10, 11, 12 (and 13?) as well as the War Doctor could have been working on it, but how could he have connected with his other "selves" without crossing his own time stream (in a manner that would not be allowed by the kinds of rules that have let it happen in other multi-doctor episodes).


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## Morrus (Nov 26, 2013)

Remus Lupin said:


> I'm slightly unclear on how it is that all of the Doctors were able to a) converge on Gaillfrey in order to "hide" it in the manner they did as well as b) how all the doctors back to #1 were able to be in on the project of calculating the method of hiding it. I could understand how 10, 11, 12 (and 13?) as well as the War Doctor could have been working on it, but how could he have connected with his other "selves" without crossing his own time stream (in a manner that would not be allowed by the kinds of rules that have let it happen in other multi-doctor episodes).




Well, the rules against time-stream crossing have clearly been ignored in the episode (it's called the Blinovitch Limitation Effect).  In this case, he must have contacted each of his prior incarnations off-screen; that's the only workable explanation.


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## Remus Lupin (Nov 26, 2013)

Morrus said:


> Well, the rules against time-stream crossing have clearly been ignored in the episode (it's called the Blinovitch Limitation Effect).  In this case, he must have contacted each of his prior incarnations off-screen; that's the only workable explanation.




Yeah, I was having trouble even figuring out how to frame the issue -- argh! So, clearly the doctor can and has crossed his own time stream under other circumstances (the 3 doctors, the 5 doctors, and even 5 and 10 being on the Tardis together in a minisode), but it seemed that all of those happened because a specific exception was made in each case (such as in the 3 Doctors, when the Time Lords engineered it or in the minisode, where it was a space-time accident).

Anyway, I know I'm overthinking it, but it was just one thing that stuck out at me watching that scene, much as I loved it.


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## trappedslider (Nov 26, 2013)

I just saw an interesting comment regarding The Face of Boe's comment "You Are Not Alone" and what happened in the 50th....

I'm kind of sad that Jack never showed up during Smith's time....hopefully he'll show during  Capaldi  and have a freak out over how he looks like  Frobisher.....


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## Remus Lupin (Nov 26, 2013)

trappedslider said:


> I just saw an interesting comment regarding The Face of Boe's comment "You Are Not Alone" and what happened in the 50th....
> 
> I'm kind of sad that Jack never showed up during Smith's time....hopefully he'll show during  Capaldi  and have a freak out over how he looks like  Frobisher.....




Was Jack ever in a room with Frobisher?


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## Umbran (Nov 26, 2013)

Morrus said:


> Well, the rules against time-stream crossing have clearly been ignored in the episode (it's called the Blinovitch Limitation Effect).  In this case, he must have contacted each of his prior incarnations off-screen; that's the only workable explanation.




Like the Pirate's Code, not so much a rule, as a guideline...


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## Umbran (Nov 26, 2013)

Morrus said:


> Problem with that is we're now starting to write our own narrative to explain it.




Not like that's never been required in Doctor Who before


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## Kramodlog (Nov 26, 2013)

Morrus said:


> Eh? How do you figure?
> 
> Hartnell 55
> Troughton 46 (down)
> ...



In looks at least.


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## delericho (Nov 26, 2013)

Remus Lupin said:


> I'm slightly unclear on how it is that all of the Doctors were able to a) converge on Gaillfrey in order to "hide" it in the manner they did




Quite possibly the same way DT, MS and JH did - the Bad Wolf called them? After all, she seemed to engineer the whole thing, showing the War Doctor "exactly the future I needed to see" - it appears she planned the whole thing.



> b) how all the doctors back to #1 were able to be in on the project of calculating the method of hiding it.




I thought I heard the First say something about starting the calculations (followed by comments from a number of others, culminating in Eccleston's "and for my next trick"). As indicated earlier in the episode, if the First starts the calculations, that then gives centuries until the Thirteenth has the completed set (which he can then broadcast to the others).


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## Morrus (Nov 26, 2013)

delericho said:


> I thought I heard the First say something about starting the calculations (followed by comments from a number of others, culminating in Eccleston's "and for my next trick"). As indicated earlier in the episode, if the First starts the calculations, that then gives centuries until the Thirteenth has the completed set (which he can then broadcast to the others).




That's exactly correct.  (Also, note that the whole sonic-screwdriver thing served as exposition/introdution to that concept earlier, so that the audience would get it quickly when applied big-scale to the Doctors).


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## Mallus (Nov 26, 2013)

delericho said:


> As indicated earlier in the episode, if the First starts the calculations, that then gives centuries until the Thirteenth has the completed set (which he can then broadcast to the others).



Yeah, it's foreshadowed (fore-explained?) by the door trick w/their screwdrivers earlier in the Tower of London. The implication is the Doctor has been working on the calculations to save Gallifrey for over 800 years. 

And yes, it only makes a kinda-sorta-just-so sense, but that doesn't make it any less clever or lovely. Did I already mention Moffat's still got it?


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## GMforPowergamers (Nov 26, 2013)

Mallus said:


> And yes, it only makes a kinda-sorta-just-so sense, but that doesn't make it any less clever or lovely. Did I already mention Moffat's still got it?



Yea, it was an OK moment much better then the screw drivers (witch should have ended with
Matt smith saying "oops" because he had broken his.

What ever Moffet has is Ok at best, I just wish he remembered his own
Cannon and countinuity


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## Morrus (Nov 26, 2013)

GMforPowergamers said:


> Yea, it was an OK moment much better then the screw drivers (witch should have ended with
> Matt smith saying "oops" because he had broken his.




There is no way that "ooops" would have been a better punchline than "it wasn't locked".  As jokes go, that was perfectly set up, and perfectly delivered by Coleman.


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## GMforPowergamers (Nov 26, 2013)

Morrus said:


> There is no way that "ooops" would have been a better punchline than "it wasn't locked".  As jokes go, that was perfectly set up, and perfectly delivered by Coleman.




He'll no, just have the oops in there followed by the door opening and not even being locked


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## Umbran (Nov 26, 2013)

The simpler the joke, the better.  And I buy the "same software" line.  The old one got destroyed - like he wouldn't have a backup of the software?  If your employer can image your laptop, he can do it for a screwdriver.


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## Grumpy RPG Reviews (Nov 27, 2013)

Bringing the sonic screwdriver into the Tardis is probably like connecting a smartphone or tablet into a computer; all the apps update, files are copied back and forth and so forth and so on. One screwdriver is destroyed, the next one has software installed from the last time the screwdriver software was backed up... probably only hours before.


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## ggroy (Nov 27, 2013)

*interview with Moffat*

http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2013...r-who-folklore-to-produce-a-christmas-cracker

If this article interview is accurate, Moffat asserts:  



Spoiler



"On Saturday he told me Matt is actually the 13th and final doctor. John  Hurt is officially now a doctor and David Tennant used up an extra  regeneration during his stay."


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## Morrus (Nov 27, 2013)

ggroy said:


> http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2013...r-who-folklore-to-produce-a-christmas-cracker
> 
> If this article interview is accurate, Moffat asserts:
> 
> ...




You don't need to put it in spoilers- it's already out in the open earlier in the thread.


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## ggroy (Nov 27, 2013)

Alleged spoilers of 2013 xmas special from an alleged "insider source".

http://whatculture.com/tv/doctor-christmas-special-spoilers-6-things-sun-ruined.php



Spoiler



Something to do with time cracks from series 5 being retconned to explain how the Doctor's regenerations are extended.


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## Morrus (Nov 27, 2013)

The Xmas Special has its own thread.


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