# Rope Trick vs. Leomund's Tiny Hut and better.



## BlueBlackRed (Jan 30, 2007)

I keep reading the spell, and as far as I can tell Rope Trick is better than higher level "sanctum" spells and can't even be detected.

Please point out to me how Rope Trick isn't a "get out a night encounter free spell".


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## Artoomis (Jan 30, 2007)

BlueBlackRed said:
			
		

> I keep reading the spell, and as far as I can tell Rope Trick is better than higher level "sanctum" spells and can't even be detected.
> 
> Please point out to me how Rope Trick isn't a "get out a night encounter free spell".




And somehow you think this is a bad thing?  It does last only 1 hour per level.  While you are in it, you do not know what is happening around you (except directly below).  While in it you cannot affect anything outside it.

Let them have their safety.  They earned it.


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## Jack Simth (Jan 30, 2007)

At 5th level, it becomes all-night safety (extended for a 3rd level spell slot and thus 10 hours).  

Mind you, depending on the scenario, it'll be reasonably obvious that they're there.

How?

Well, if the group is systemically clearing a dungeon, they probably stop at the last room cleared.  A simple Detect Magic and three to eight rounds later, you know where the door is.

The door is invisible, not incorporeal; blindsense or blindsight will notice it.

See Invisibility is a 2nd level spell, and will be available for a level-appropriet challenger wondering why the trail of bodies ended _here_.

Rope trick isn't usually advantageous in combat.  Tiny Hut it Total Concealment for the entire party over a large area, until the opponents close.  Great for archers.  Secure Shelter provides cover.

If the group is in a forest or other outdoors setting, someone following tracks will have a decent idea of what's up.

Whether their reaction is "lay a trap" of some sort, or remove the trick (dispel magic, antimagic cone, whatever) it's not perfectly safe.

Also, there's a pesky little note in Rope Trick about the hazards of multiple extradimensional spaces.... apply it, then drop a couple of nifties (say, Handy Haversacks; they're cheap enough not to be too unbalancing) into the party.  Then have the Wizard roll a spellcraft/knoweledge Arcana check just in time.


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## Vegepygmy (Jan 30, 2007)

BlueBlackRed said:
			
		

> Please point out to me how Rope Trick isn't a "get out a night encounter free spell".



Nothing in the spell description says you can get good rest inside a _rope trick_.  If you rule that anyone trying to spend the night in one wakes up fatigued (as if they'd slept in heavy armor, say), that pretty much solves the problem.


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## FreeTheSlaves (Jan 30, 2007)

Yeah, the whole place-to-sleep spells generally suck. Extra-dimensional this and concealment that, when what I'd prefer are spells that conjure defences & eventually battlements.

It would be much cooler to have spells that create cool defensive structures.

Anyway, nevermind...


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## Legildur (Jan 30, 2007)

FreeTheSlaves said:
			
		

> Yeah, the whole place-to-sleep spells generally suck. Extra-dimensional this and concealment that, when what I'd prefer are spells that conjure defences & eventually battlements.
> 
> It would be much cooler to have spells that create cool defensive structures.



I don't know about cool, but Arcane Lock (or is it Wizard Lock) and Spike Stones are both quite useful defensively - particularly in dungeons.


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## 3d6 (Jan 30, 2007)

Jack Simth said:
			
		

> Whether their reaction is "lay a trap" of some sort, or remove the trick (dispel magic, antimagic cone, whatever) it's not perfectly safe.



You can't actually dispel _rope trick_. The target of _rope trick_ is "one touched piece of rope from 5 ft. to 30 ft. long" which you can "pull [...] up into the space", where it is "beyond the reach of spells".

_Tiny hut_ is actually a combat spell, despite the name. The most useful function of the hut is that it provides total concealment to creatures within the globe and no benefit to enemies outside it. It is really a (much) better version of _darkness_ or _obscuring mist_, not a competitor to _rope trick_.


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## FreeTheSlaves (Jan 30, 2007)

Well, from my experience, night time attacks can be a good source of fun. Night time attacks put a value on resources used during the day and they allow the heroes to decide on all their cunning tricks of defence.

What I'm talking about when I said "cool" are scenes primed for heroic defensive battles. I think it would be great if abjurations in particular could do layered defences that are more difficult to deal with the higher the spell level. 

In fact, at the cost of striking off in a tangent, I would like to see interesting defensive spells to provide a real option to going offence heavy. Effectively, such spells could allow the attackers to shape the battlefield to have the advantages of being the prepared defender.


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## Jack Simth (Jan 30, 2007)

FreeTheSlaves: You mean like Wall of Iron/Stone, Spike Stones, Disintigrate + Illusiory Wall, Alarm, Mage's Private Sanctum, et cetera?  It's actually a pretty simple excercize for a Wizard or Sorcerer to build a bit of a temporary fortress past about 10th or 11th level.


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## Notmousse (Jan 30, 2007)

FreeTheSlaves:  There are several such spells in Heroes of Battle.  You may wish to give it a peek.


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## frankthedm (Jan 30, 2007)

3d6 said:
			
		

> You can't actually dispel _rope trick_. The target of _rope trick_ is "one touched piece of rope from 5 ft. to 30 ft. long" which you can "pull [...] up into the space", where it is "beyond the reach of spells".



_Creatures __ in the extradimensional space are hidden, beyond the reach of spells (including divinations), unless those spells work across planes. _ 

The window created by the spell is on the material plane.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/ropeTrick.htm

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelMagic.htm


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## 3d6 (Jan 30, 2007)

_Dispel magic_ can only targeted against "one spellcaster, creature, or object"; _rope trick_ is cast on an object. That object is beyond an "extradimensional interface" across which "spells cannot be cast".


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## scrubkai (Jan 30, 2007)

3d6 said:
			
		

> _Dispel magic_ can only targeted against "one spellcaster, creature, or object"; _rope trick_ is cast on an object. That object is beyond an "extradimensional interface" across which "spells cannot be cast".




Can't you just do an area dispel in the area of the material plane where where the window is? (As it is an "ongoing spell whose area overlaps that of the dispel magic spell")
That does not need to target anything, and as far as I understand would end the spell.


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## Klaus (Jan 30, 2007)

FreeTheSlaves said:
			
		

> Yeah, the whole place-to-sleep spells generally suck. Extra-dimensional this and concealment that, when what I'd prefer are spells that conjure defences & eventually battlements.
> 
> It would be much cooler to have spells that create cool defensive structures.
> 
> Anyway, nevermind...



 You should read the novel "In The Claws Of The Tiger", by James Wyatt. The elf wizard simply refuses to sleep in a bedroll (he's venerable), so he keeps Leomund's Secure Shelter prepared. The party simply decides on a campsite and BAM!, a house appears, complete with lockable door and windows. They eventually use it as a fort of sorts.


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## 3d6 (Jan 30, 2007)

scrubkai said:
			
		

> Can't you just do an area dispel in the area of the material plane where where the window is? (As it is an "ongoing spell whose area overlaps that of the dispel magic spell")
> That does not need to target anything, and as far as I understand would end the spell.





> For each ongoing area or effect spell whose point of origin is within the area of the dispel magic spell, you can make a dispel check to dispel the spell.



The point of origin of _rope trick_ is the rope, so that clause does not allow _rope trick_ to be dispelled, as area effects do not cross the extradimensional interface.







> For each ongoing spell whose area overlaps that of the dispel magic spell, you can make a dispel check to end the effect, but only within the overlapping area.



_Rope trick_ is a targeted spell, and does not have an area, so this clause does not allow you to dispel _rope trick_.

_Dispel magic_ is simply not effective against _rope trick_. I think this makes _rope trick _ too safe a shelter for a 2nd level spell, but that does seem to be the rule.


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## IanB (Jan 30, 2007)

3d6 said:
			
		

> _Dispel magic_ can only targeted against "one spellcaster, creature, or object"; _rope trick_ is cast on an object. That object is beyond an "extradimensional interface" across which "spells cannot be cast".




Actually, dispel magic can target a specific spell:



			
				SRD said:
			
		

> Targeted Dispel
> One object, creature, or spell is the target of the dispel magic spell.




So, if you can see the door, you can dispel the rope trick spell.


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## BlueBlackRed (Jan 30, 2007)

So right now all I'm seeing is that it is a arguably dispellable and arguably not a place to rest in.

It is simply a crate to hide in until the crisis you're hiding from goes away.
To me that would make it 2nd level.


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## Dargon (Jan 31, 2007)

> Mage's Private Sanctum



What book is this spell from?


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## TheGogmagog (Jan 31, 2007)

I have to admit, at first the argument you can't sleep in it sounded dubious.  But it's starting to grow on me. (see Dcollin's post #25) I'm a big fan of pointing out you can fit more than one medium creature into a 5x5 space, you just can't fight effectively.  So I could easily see the rope trick as a 5x5 where you can squeeze 8 people.  That would still present the problem of one person (per trick).  But that represents a larger investment for multiple people, and _still_ rules out large creatures.

I also think you can still target the spell effect with dispel magic from the prime plane.  It's a mute point though as if you are capable of detecting it (detect magic, see invisibility, blindsight or the mundane methods) let alone dispelling it you are capable of setting up an ambush.

In another discussion one of our group mentioned it used to be higher (3rd?) level, but I don't know what edition.  Even at 4th, it would be better than Secure Shelter.

PS Private Sanctum  PPS If area 30' cube is 30'x30'x30' then your range limits the area until epic levels.  The 30' cube would still come into play when shaping it though.  It's not true if they meant 30 cubic feet, but I don't think that's the D20 convention.


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## pallandrome (Jan 31, 2007)

Sure, it MIGHT be able to house a few characters for a night, but what about STYLE? Which would you rather spend the night in, a featureless hole in the sky, or an extradimensional mansion? Rope trick be damned!


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## Nail (Jan 31, 2007)

I haven't seen the spell cast in my games.  It's just not that great, compared to all the other cool 2nd level spells, IMO.


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## takasi (Jan 31, 2007)

Vegepygmy said:
			
		

> Nothing in the spell description says you can get good rest inside a _rope trick_.  If you rule that anyone trying to spend the night in one wakes up fatigued (as if they'd slept in heavy armor, say), that pretty much solves the problem.




Another perk for the warforged...


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## mvincent (Jan 31, 2007)

Vegepygmy said:
			
		

> Nothing in the spell description says you can get good rest inside a _rope trick_.



From the "Tactics and Tips" WotC article:
_"this spell works best when cast by an 8th-level sorcerer or wizard, allowing a full night's sleep"_

A DM could (as always) rule otherwise, but it would seem contrary to expectations and so the players should probably be informed of this beforehand.


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## BlueBlackRed (Feb 1, 2007)

Well if that's an official word from WotC, that's enough for me (until they change their mind).

And that means I'm going to have to give the party oodles and oodles of extradimensional space magic items.


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## mvincent (Feb 1, 2007)

Jack Simth said:
			
		

> there's a pesky little note in Rope Trick about the hazards of multiple extradimensional spaces....



From the 3.0 FAQ:
_"Note you can freely go plane hopping with portable holes, bags of holding, and the like. Spells that produce their own extradimensional spaces, such as rope trick, pose no danger to occupants who may be using portable holes, bags of holding, and the like."_

From the Rules of the Game:
_"rope trick and Mordenkainen's magnificent mansion both create extradimensional spaces. The rope trick spell description makes a passing mention of "hazards" associated with placing one extradimensional space inside another, but gives no details. (See the rope trick excerpt.)

I recommend that you ignore this reference. Your campaign won't be improved if rope trick effects implode when someone carries a bag of holding or portable hole inside. A Mordenkainen's magnificent mansion should likewise prove benign if someone carries a bag of holding or portable hole inside."_

Obligatory disclaimer: this information is intended solely for those that desir to use the FAQ or RotG


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## TheGogmagog (Feb 1, 2007)

The WotC article is comforting, that's the way we alwas played it.  But realistically compare it to any of the other sanctum, or even faithfull hound spells.  It's nearly a 5th level, effect.


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## mvincent (Feb 1, 2007)

TheGogmagog said:
			
		

> The WotC article is comforting, that's the way we alwas played it.  But realistically compare it to any of the other sanctum, or even faithfull hound spells.  It's nearly a 5th level, effect.



Yup. It's powerful (effectively the ultimate 'save game'), but it seems to facilitate game-play: i.e. players are bound to find a way to rest anyway, so might as well skip the night-time random encounter and move on to the main adventure.

I've had the exact opposite problem before: players that never bothered to use rope-trick. A locked door simply isn't going to keep a dungeon full of (teleporting) demons or devils out... and I end up seeming like a mean DM.

If you are having a problem with Rope Trick though, simply have a few of BBEG's start using it. It's fairly likely that the PC's will then figure out some way to circumvent it (likely in some really naster manner). Take notes and chuckle loudly when they do so. Chances are your players won't use Rope Trick again after that.


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## Jack Simth (Feb 1, 2007)

mvincent said:
			
		

> From the 3.0 FAQ:
> _"Note you can freely go plane hopping with portable holes, bags of holding, and the like. Spells that produce their own extradimensional spaces, such as rope trick, pose no danger to occupants who may be using portable holes, bags of holding, and the like."_
> 
> From the Rules of the Game:
> ...



Hey, aren't those the same sources that, for a very long time, said that acid damage both did, and did not, ignore hardness (in different sections, but still...)?

Not all DM's trust the FAQ or Rules of the Game articles.  

When someone mentions a particular spell that they're worried about, and the text of the spell suggests a way to weaken it while giving the DM a free hand in implementation, I'm going to point it out.  So what if a... what, tetriary? ...  Source suggests ignoring something that is actually Core.  Rules of Precedence.  The PHB description of the spell ovverrides basically everything except the DM in relation to what it covers.  Sure, you could follow that... but it's the DM's call.  It's not like the FAQ for an older version of the game, or a dev's reccomendation (do note that even in your quote he called it a reccomendation, not the proper interpertation) is actually an offical ruling for the current version.



			
				Dargon said:
			
		

> What book is this spell from?



The SRD; it's the generic version of the PHB's Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum.  The two spells are identicle except for the name.


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## mvincent (Feb 1, 2007)

Jack Simth said:
			
		

> Not all DM's trust the FAQ or Rules of the Game articles.



If you are one, then don't use the information I have freely provided. However, not providing such information (which is evidently what some people on this board desire) would seem unfair to other readers. I have added an appropriate disclaimer to my earlier post.


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## Nail (Feb 1, 2007)

mvincent said:
			
		

> I've had the exact opposite problem before: players that never bothered to use rope-trick. A locked door simply isn't going to keep a dungeon full of (teleporting) demons or devils out... and I end up seeming like a mean DM.



Send your Players here.

We'll gladly provide them with pointers on how to survive your game.


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## Chris Markham (Oct 3, 2018)

Have a big nasty creature track the characters by scent before they entered. Confused, but at the end of the trail, he goes to sleep....right under where they pulled the rope up. Ought to be a tense moment as they all wake and then try to climb down quietly, trying not to wake the slumbering monster....


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