# Knights of the Scarlet Woman



## Hunter99

*Mod Note*: Ladies and Gentlemen, we'd not had threads like this in the past, so we never needed a policy to handle them.  In the wake of this, we've discussed and implemented a new policy, to make our position on the matter clear.  ~Umbran, EN World Moderator

http://www.enworld.org/forum/meta/3...g-molestation-rape-other-such-discussion.html



Here is an organization I am thinking of using in my games. I'd appreciate some feedback on it.

Knights of the Scarlet Woman.

When we hear of knights, we think of men who are dedicated to the ideals of duty, self-sacrifice, honor and who esteem chastity as a virtue in women. We do not think of knights as those who seek to liberate women sexually; such men we think of as scoundrels. Men who seek to liberate women sexually are known as the corrupters of innocence, as devils from the underworld not as heroes. Therefore, when we hear of an order of knights who see it as their duty to fight sexual suppression and liberate women from the prison of chastity we cannot help but be struck by disbelief. Well, I am here to tell you about an order of knights who see just this as their duty: The Knights of the Scarlet Woman.

This order was founded by three men who saw it as their sacred duty to liberate women from the bonds of chastity. The first was a rebel, poet and warrior by the name of Aleister Crowley. The second was a philosopher and sage by the name of Wilhelm Reich. And the third was a painter and bard by the Luis Royo. These men came together, approximately three hundred years ago and swore an oath that they would never rest until every woman on the face of the earth had been liberated sexually. Surrounded by hostility, these men at first resolved to keep their activities a secret until such time as they had the strength and the numbers to fight an open war against the dominant power of those days The Knights of the Virgin.

One hundred years ago, the knights lead a revolution in one country, X, (unnamed to allow adaptation for different settings.) and seized the reins of power after the people had become cynical after repeatedly seeing the corruption, bigotry and false promises of the Knights of the Virgin. As a result popular opinion shifted in that country and the people of that country discovered a newfound dedication to love and romance which had been suppressed by the Knights of the Virgin as sin and godlessness.

Upon seizing power, these men (founders were dead by this time) sought to promote the equal participation of women in civil society and became the first knighthood in history to allow women to become equal members with all the rights and privileges as men. Their coming out into the open has opened them to attack by the Knights of the Virgin who currently dominate other areas of the world. The Knights of the Scarlet Woman have found unlikely allies in the Fey and certain sympathetic devils and demons. (Although the activities of the Knights of the Scarlet Woman are by no means evil.)

The motto of this order is, “For love one should risk respectability and even life itself.” Another motto is, “The sun shines no less brightly on you because it shines on others.” Membership is open to all men and women who are willing to abide by the rules of the order. Knights upon entry take a vow to remain bachelors all their life, to renounce jealousy and possessiveness and not to hoard their love by only loving one man or woman but many. All those seeking membership also go through an initiation ritual which includes the blaspheming of the symbols of the Knights of the Virgin, orgies, feasting and the ritual deflowering of a (willing) virgin. Participants dress up as demons and devils during the rituals.

Members receive a number of benefits and have a certain number of corresponding duties as part of their membership. The organization provides an atmosphere of tolerance where open discussion of secular ideas takes place. Members also receive a set of armor or robes depending on their class with the emblems of the order. (The order’s symbol is a kissing nymph and succubus intertwined with one another.) Members have a duty to come to the aid of fellow members in times of need and to remain loyal to the ideals of the order. They have a duty to fight for the order when called upon and to be courageous (although not stupid) in the face of persecution and difficulty. Members also receive a copy of the book of verse White Stains which was composed Aleister Crowley; this book is also the guiding text of the order.

Members are required to train in the warrior arts (or some equivalent class which has combat use such as mages, clerics, druids, thieves, bards etc.) or to demonstrate, on a regular basis, competence in the art of war as a means of ensuring the strength of the order. Members are either sent on missions, covert or overt, or called upon to wage war on the Knights of the Virgin. Members are also called upon to spread the message of the order if they have the capacity.

The order regularly kidnaps beautiful women who would otherwise have been caged in the prison of chastity. The women are educated (and brainwashed if necessary) and trained to become scarlet women. They have all the rights and privileges of members of the order except for the following restrictions:
A. They cannot leave the order.
B. They can choose their sexual partners but they cannot choose to be chaste.
Most of these young women choose to stay in the order and those who are recalcitrant are enchanted by various charm spells into cooperating. They are not forced to have sex with someone they do not want to and they are not physically abused. Only non-coercive enchantment spells are used.

The order is structured on democratic lines for the election of representatives to the senate and the senate then gives a charter to military commanders to carry out military operations in various areas. Men and women are equal participants in the senate and the proportion of men and women is roughly equal.

The Knights of the Virgin consider the order to be evil while more pagan persons consider them to be heroes. The Knights of the Scarlet Women have found allies among druids, thieves guilds, the fey, bards and certain demons and devils. (such as Succubi and Eriynes.)

What can be said about the morality of this controversial order? That, dear reader, is for you to judge.

What do you think?


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## Dandu

Brainwashing and mind control strike me as incompatible with the Good alignment.

Honestly, the part where there is a lack of consent would make me think twice before hanging around them.


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## Hunter99

This Knight Templar - Television Tropes & Idioms.

And this 
Utopia Justifies the Means - Television Tropes & Idioms.

Edit:

And this http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WellIntentionedExtremist.


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## Hunter99

Dandu said:


> Brainwashing and mind control strike me as incompatible with the Good alignment.
> 
> Honestly, the part where there is a lack of consent would make me think twice before hanging around them.




From Nietzsche, "The Devil: Good and Evil are God's prejudices."


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## Dandu

Nietzsche was stupid and abnormal.
-*Leo Tolstoy*
_Russian mystic & novelist  (1828 - 1910)_​


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## Hunter99

The battle of the quotes is on.


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## Hunter99

Dandu said:


> Nietzsche was stupid and abnormal.
> -*Leo Tolstoy*
> _Russian mystic & novelist (1828 - 1910)_ ​




Seriously, what do you expect a Christian pacifist to say about an anti-christian hawk?


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## Drobney Falcor

Using violence to "spread the love"? Borderline evil. Also seems a bit lawful for something I'd consider chaotic in nature. But I digress...

This kind of creative guild forming is exactly the kind I like to read about in the gaming world, something that disregards the niche organizations (thieves guild, etc...). I'm imagining some sort of crusading paladin prc fighting in the name of free love, drawing on the power of unrestrained sex. This would stick in my mind as a player and the treacherous Knights of the virgin add the perfect adversary to these free spirits.

As far as freedom goes it does seem a bit weird to see them use spells and brainwashing to force their opinions. Then again I see no reason after time the initial intentions might change slightly, or at least the means to an end.

Overall a great idea that be really cool for the players as well as the dm


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## domino

"Liberating" women.

By brainwashing them.

REALLY.

That, plus the two restrictions (that are "all" that makes them not equal to the men) pretty much guarantees that there's no liberation at all actually involved in this.

It is in fact enslaving women _even worse _than the society they're against does, the only difference is that it's doing so the opposite way.

This is Evil with a capital What The .


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## Dandu

Hunter99 said:


> This Knight Templar - Television Tropes & Idioms.
> 
> And this
> Utopia Justifies the Means - Television Tropes & Idioms.
> 
> Edit:
> 
> And this Well-Intentioned Extremist - Television Tropes & Idioms.



There is a saying about the road to hell being paved with good intentions. What is the trope for that?


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## Hunter99

Drobney Falcor said:


> Using violence to "spread the love"? Borderline evil. Also seems a bit lawful for something I'd consider chaotic in nature. But I digress...
> 
> This kind of creative guild forming is exactly the kind I like to read about in the gaming world, something that disregards the niche organizations (thieves guild, etc...). I'm imagining some sort of crusading paladin prc fighting in the name of free love, drawing on the power of unrestrained sex. This would stick in my mind as a player and the treacherous Knights of the virgin add the perfect adversary to these free spirits.
> 
> As far as freedom goes it does seem a bit weird to see them use spells and brainwashing to force their opinions. Then again I see no reason after time the initial intentions might change slightly, or at least the means to an end.
> 
> Overall a great idea that be really cool for the players as well as the dm




Thanks, I'm glad you think so.

The organzation is definitely borderline evil, perhaps well-intentioned extremist.

Given that the organization is also allied with succubi and eriynes, it is possible that they persuaded the leaders of the organization to use more dubious means to achieve the greater good.

Although the knights themselves fully believe in the morality of their actions.

It is also possible that the knights keep their trickery and deception a secret so that only a few trusted members know that the knights use enchantment spells on recalcitrant women.


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## Hunter99

domino said:


> "Liberating" women.
> 
> By brainwashing them.
> 
> REALLY.
> 
> That, plus the two restrictions (that are "all" that makes them not equal to the men) pretty much guarantees that there's no liberation at all actually involved in this.
> 
> It is in fact enslaving women _even worse _than the society they're against does, the only difference is that it's doing so the opposite way.
> 
> This is Evil with a capital What The .




Being ravished still rates as the most popular female fantasy so I consider the actions of this organization to be helping women who otherwise might not have the courage to break away from the conditioning of the society to do so.

Anyways, it's not like the organization is forcing women to do something they wouldn't already want to do if society did not stigmatize sexual freedom. They retain full freedom to choose their sexual partners, they just can't be chaste which is like forbidding something unnatural such as standing on one's head.

Edit: I do not condone any non-consensual sexual activity in real life. This is a role-playing game which is flirting with mature themes. I fully respect an individual's right to choose their sexual partner or to do things which are unnatural such as take vows of celibacy even though I may disapprove of such vows.


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## Dandu

Ok, dude, you need to use the edit button.


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## domino

Hunter99 said:


> Being ravished still rates as the most popular female fantasy so I consider the actions of this organization to be helping women who otherwise might not have the courage to break away from the conditioning of the society to do so.



Of course you consider the actions of this organization to be helpful.  You invented it.

You're also wrong.







> Anyways, it's not like the organization is forcing women to do something they wouldn't already want to do if society did not stigmatize sexual freedom. They retain full freedom to choose their sexual partners, they just can't be chaste which is like forbidding something unnatural such as standing on one's head.



Except you are denying them full freedom, by saying that they can't choose _no _sexual partners.   You consider it unnatural.  Good for you!  Some people still do things that are unnatural.  But fortunately, there's an organization here dedicated to forcing people to do things the natural way.

Do gay men and women get to choose which woman and man respectively they get married to, as well?  It's the same freedom you're talking about, just filtered through what is natural.


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## Hunter99

Of course we should all take this in the spirit of light-heartedness, humor and fun.

Historically there has never been an organization which has been dedicated to forcing people to be sexually free, they would never be able to get popular opinion on their side.

The majority of efforts have been in the opposite direction, to forcing sexual suppression which also received broad popular support in it's goals and efforts as it still does in many backward parts of the world.


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## Hunter99

domino said:


> Do gay men and women get to choose which woman and man respectively they get married to, as well? It's the same freedom you're talking about, just filtered through what is natural.




The symbol of this knighthood is a nymph and a succubus making out so that should have shed some light on where I stand.

In real life I support gay marriage, even though I think homosexuality is unnatural (not lesbianism mind you, just homosexuality.)

In the game, this organization would frown upon men having sexual relationships with one another although women would be fully free and encouraged to do so.


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## Dandu

> In real life I support gay marriage, even though I think homosexuality  is unnatural (not lesbianism mind you, just homosexuality.)



What.


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## Hunter99

He brought up the issue so I wanted to clarify my position so I didn't give the wrong impression.


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## Dandu

A homosexual is one who is attracted to his or her own gender. This includes women as well as men.

Your statement makes no sense in this context. If you instead meant "I think chicks getting it on with each other is hot, but two guys going at it is disgusting" you should have just come out and said so.


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## Hunter99

Yes, that's what I meant.


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## Hunter99

[MENTION=85158]Dandu[/MENTION], while you may disagree with certain things this organization does, would playing in this type of campaign interest you? (not necessarily an invitation, just an inquiry.) Do you think you would have fun playing in such campaign? (Of course this depends on many things other than what the campaign is about.)


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## Dandu

Certainly. I like seeing holy temples burn like the savannah brush in midsummer.


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## Hunter99

It seems to me that if such a knighthood were to ever exist and to seize power, whether in real life or in D&D, it would take place in a country like France.

Therefore I have decided to model the country where this revolution takes place after France. That will also be the location of the headquarters of the knighthood.


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## Dandu

I am not a Frenchman, woman, feminist, or homosexual, but somehow I find myself constantly horrified by the things you say.


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## Hunter99

I am curious to know why, as my last comment seemed pretty benign to me.


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## Dandu

The part where you said that, out of all the places in the world, the French strike you as most likely to be a group of adulterous rapists might have had something to do with it.


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## Hunter99

I never said that, I simply said that France seemed to be the most likely place where popular opinion would approve of a knighthood that promotes sexual freedom.

There, and Europe more broadly.


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## Dandu

Once again, it seems that there is a difference between what you have said and what you meant.


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## Duke Arioch

Who says christians are/were lawful good??!!


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## kitcik

You should read the Chronicles of Gor.


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## RUMBLETiGER

my 2 copper pieces:

First off, I can completely see an orginization like this developing in the D&D world.  Easily.  Everything you wrote could unfold just as it is stated in the Greyhawk or perhaps even Eberron worlds.  

Second, I keep getting fuzzy when I try to place an alignment on this.  It's Lawful in it's enforcement of Chaotic-style behaviors.  Because it has a strict code, however chaotic-seeming the individual tennants, I'd place this on the Lawful spectrum.  

And it'd be Evil.  Not heavily Evil, but the kidnapping/brainwashing/manipulation "for your own good" thing places it under "We don't think we are Evil, but the rest of the world see us as so" catagory.  Now, it cannot be assumed that the Knights of the Virgin are any more Good/less Evil, because they also appear to be repressing freedoms and being controlling as well, from the little you've described of that side of the coin.  They also might be "we don't think we are Evil, but the rest of the world would see us as so".

Third, I can see playing a campaign with this order existing in the world.  I cannot see playing a character who was a member of this order, or the opposing one, but who might side a little bit more with the Knights of the Virgin simply because they appear more conservative, and therefore less disruptive.  Participating in a campaign that wrestled with the morality that this tension brings up could make for an interesting game.  

Fourth, I imagine that while both of these orders see themselves as powerful, influential forces, perhaps the majority of the common folk aren't heavily influenced by either philosophy.  Sure, they'd have to pay taxes, bend and knee and appear to play by whatever rules while out in public like all good peasants would, but when they come home, they live their lives however they like.  The majority of the world would still likely maintain the normal, married, having kids, traditional family unit in order to maintain any medieval, Europian flavored culture where 90-something% of the population were ordinary Commoners and Experts while the remaining people were adventurers, elitists anjd philosophers.  Most people can't afford the time for pursuing such ideals.

Besides, it appears that both orders are only interested in liberating or preserving the sexuality of attractive women.  All the more common-looking girls would be ignored by either side.


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## green slime

Dandu said:


> I am not a Frenchman, woman, feminist, or homosexual, but somehow I find myself constantly horrified by the things you say.




LOL! Amen to that! What a Truly Incredible Talent


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## Elf Witch

I sent some of these posts to several of my female gamer friends. 

And after a flurry of emails one summed it up nicely after I looked at the OP age. "Oh that explains so much"

It seems that you are dealing with the age old view of woman as either saints or sinners.

And there is no liberation going on here at all. Why because you are letting men decide when and how woman should express their own sexuality.

These group of knights don't care about woman at all. They sound like a bunch of spoiled frat boys who want their cake and eat it too. They want to get to have as much sex as they want without any responsibilities. Tell me what is the plan for taking care of any children born from these encounters?  

As for the rape fantasy being common in woman you obliviously have never really talked to the woman who have them. Read some historical romance the ravishing of the heroine is a common theme. But it is usually done by one man and they ended up married by the end of the book. 

I can see why this would appeal to some men because it is the ultimate fantasy for men, woman who want to have sex but don't put any ties on the guys freedom.


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## kitcik

RUMBLETiGER said:


> my 2 copper pieces:
> 
> First off, I can completely see an orginization like this developing in the D&D world. Easily. Everything you wrote could unfold just as it is stated in the Greyhawk or perhaps even Eberron worlds.
> 
> Second, I keep getting fuzzy when I try to place an alignment on this. It's Lawful in it's enforcement of Chaotic-style behaviors. Because it has a strict code, however chaotic-seeming the individual tennants, I'd place this on the Lawful spectrum.
> 
> And it'd be Evil. Not heavily Evil, but the kidnapping/brainwashing/manipulation "for your own good" thing places it under "We don't think we are Evil, but the rest of the world see us as so" catagory. Now, it cannot be assumed that the Knights of the Virgin are any more Good/less Evil, because they also appear to be repressing freedoms and being controlling as well, from the little you've described of that side of the coin. They also might be "we don't think we are Evil, but the rest of the world would see us as so".
> 
> Third, I can see playing a campaign with this order existing in the world. I cannot see playing a character who was a member of this order, or the opposing one, but who might side a little bit more with the Knights of the Virgin simply because they appear more conservative, and therefore less disruptive. Participating in a campaign that wrestled with the morality that this tension brings up could make for an interesting game.
> 
> Fourth, I imagine that while both of these orders see themselves as powerful, influential forces, perhaps the majority of the common folk aren't heavily influenced by either philosophy. Sure, they'd have to pay taxes, bend and knee and appear to play by whatever rules while out in public like all good peasants would, but when they come home, they live their lives however they like. The majority of the world would still likely maintain the normal, married, having kids, traditional family unit in order to maintain any medieval, Europian flavored culture where 90-something% of the population were ordinary Commoners and Experts while the remaining people were adventurers, elitists anjd philosophers. Most people can't afford the time for pursuing such ideals.
> 
> Besides, it appears that both orders are only interested in liberating or preserving the sexuality of attractive women. All the more common-looking girls would be ignored by either side.




Aargh! I cannot XP!


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## the Jester

Seriously, dude- not to be a dick, but have you ever even_ talked to_ a girl, homosexual or Frenchman?

You have some grade-A messed up misconceptions about stuff here, and it's making you come across as pretty mysogynistic and ignorant. The basic idea behind your knightly organization is whacked, your attitude about them seems to be "It's okay if they brainwash and mind-control women and force them to have sex against their will; it isn't rape because they get to pick a partner!"

Basically, this is the kind of thing that will prevent you from having many females in your group. I dunno, maybe that's what you want.


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## xigbar

Is it just me, or do most of the posts that start arguements the ones where the Jester says dick in it? I think people should be mature enough to read these things, and respect an opinion, despite my sharing with the unanimous disapproval of it.


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## ExploderWizard

This thread is like a train wreck that compels you to look at it. Its obvious that dude needs to get laid in the worst way.


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## RUMBLETiGER

the Jester said:


> Seriously, dude- not to be a dick, but have you ever even_ talked to_ a girl, homosexual or Frenchman?
> 
> You have some grade-A messed up misconceptions about stuff here, and it's making you come across as pretty mysogynistic and ignorant. The basic idea behind your knightly organization is whacked, your attitude about them seems to be "It's okay if they brainwash and mind-control women and force them to have sex against their will; it isn't rape because they get to pick a partner!"
> 
> Basically, this is the kind of thing that will prevent you from having many females in your group. I dunno, maybe that's what you want.



Jester, to agree with Xigbar, Hunter99 is proposing a concept, asking how it would fit in a D&D world and looking for constructive input.

If I suggested a cult of canaballistic children's heart eaters who also snacked on kittens, it'd be Evil and disturbing, but no less valid as a "Let me suggest an orginization for my D&D game and get your input", and while mine truely is a more vile orginization than the Knights of the Scarlett Woman, I'm doubting my concept would get the reaction you proposed.


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## Arcadio

I think the Knights of the Scarlet Woman sounds like a fine villain group, assuming your players are ok with the rape theme.

I wouldn't want to play in an evil campaign where the goal was rape, but I wouldn't mind playing in a good campaign where the goal was to stop the Knights.  Or, as I think one of your posts suggested, the party could be lower ranking members and believe they're rescuing women who are being held captive by the Knights of the Virgin, until they discover that their superiors have tricked them into kidnapping women so that they can rape them.  And then the party works to redeem themselves by taking down the Knights of the Scarlet Woman.

Rape alone doesn't seem like a goal for an evil organization, and I don't buy the leaders of this organization being true believers, but if the leaders are servants of the demons you mentioned, I can buy that the demons are getting something out of it.  Maybe they're feeding off of the evil acts of the humans, or maybe they're raping too, creating an army of half-demons or something.

But be clear that the rapists are the bad guys.  I don't think you'll get many players if you make it sound like you think rape is ok.


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## Hunter99

Elf Witch said:


> And after a flurry of emails one summed it up nicely after I looked at the OP age. "Oh that explains so much"
> 
> It seems that you are dealing with the age old view of woman as either saints or sinners.
> 
> And there is no liberation going on here at all. Why because you are letting men decide when and how woman should express their own sexuality.
> 
> These group of knights don't care about woman at all. They sound like a bunch of spoiled frat boys who want their cake and eat it too. They want to get to have as much sex as they want without any responsibilities. Tell me what is the plan for taking care of any children born from these encounters?




Let me start out by saying that many responders to this thread seem to take this too seriously, instead of in the spirit of humor and light-heartedness in which it was meant.

The women in this organization have full sexual freedom, they just can't choose to be chaste.

As far as the children, I am working on a spell to prevent pregnancies and to safely abort a fetus if necessary in the Birth Control and D&D thread.


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## Hunter99

Arcadio said:


> But be clear that the rapists are the bad guys. I don't think you'll get many players if you make it sound like you think rape is ok.




I never said that rape was okay.

What I said was that the Knights of the Scarlet Woman think that by kidnapping women and educating them to be sexually free they are liberating women from the bonds of chastity.

It is not exactly rape because the women are not forced to have sex involuntarily with someone. They are simply forbidden from being chaste, otherwise they retain full freedom to choose their sexual partner. If it was rape, they wouldn't retain such freedom.


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## ExploderWizard

Hunter99 said:


> The women in this organization have full sexual freedom, they just can't choose to be chaste.





Do you even realize how little sense this statement makes. Full freedom of anything means just that; full freedom. 

 Anything else may imply some form of freedom but it is anything but full.


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## Hunter99

I did not say full freedom, I said full sexual freedom. Sexual freedom does not include chastity.


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## xigbar

Hunter99 said:


> I did not say full freedom, I said full sexual freedom. Sexual freedom does not include chastity.




In other words, they don't have the sexual freedom to be chaste. The concept is fine, but you'll have to reword it a bit, for the sake of semantics.


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## Arcadio

Hunter99 said:


> I never said that rape was okay.
> 
> What I said was that the Knights of the Scarlet Woman think that by kidnapping women and educating them to be sexually free they are liberating women from the bonds of chastity.
> 
> It is not exactly rape because the women are not forced to have sex involuntarily with someone. They are simply forbidden from being chaste, otherwise they retain full freedom to choose their sexual partner. If it was rape, they wouldn't retain such freedom.




I'm not seeing the difference between "forbidden from being chaste" and "forced to have sex involuntarily."  Being able to choose between several rapists doesn't make rape not rape.


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## Hunter99

xigbar said:


> the sexual freedom to be chaste




A chaste woman is not sexually free but rather sexually suppressed.


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## Hunter99

Arcadio said:


> I'm not seeing the difference between "forbidden from being chaste" and "forced to have sex involuntarily." Being able to choose between several rapists doesn't make rape not rape.




Well, I'm sure there will be many handsome knights in the order; there is bound to be at least one knight that catches a woman's eye.

And if you enjoy it, it's not rape.


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## xigbar

Hunter99 said:


> A chaste woman is not sexually free but rather sexually suppressed.




Unless they're choosing to be chaste, which would imply that it's a choice, and choices usually imply freedom. That's just the basic Law of Syllogism at work.


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## kitcik

I think I can spell out the confusion for everyone.



Hunter99 said:


> What I said was that the Knights of the Scarlet Woman think that by kidnapping women and educating them to be sexually free they are liberating women from the bonds of chastity.




In this quote you are saying that the Knights are perverted bastards that believe they are good but are likely perceived by everyone else as evil (as an earlier responder said). This is a good basis for discussion of a D&D world organization.



Hunter99 said:


> I did not say full freedom, I said full sexual freedom. Sexual freedom does not include chastity.




Here you are saying that your own view is that sexual freedom does not include chastity. This is the lightning rod for flames regarding your insensitivity, etc. Personally, I find this view extremely uninformed at best.

Without going too far on a tangent, autoroticism seems to be sexual in nature... And yet this is not part of sexual freedom?

In any case, I think we would benefit by keeping the thread focussed on the first point. 

I could definitely see not only an organization but a cult dedicated to this belief, one whose members are extremely self-righteous and have "converted" a bunch of peasants (caused them to "bend the knee" and at least pay lip service to the beliefs, through intimidation or just peer pressure). This could definitely be an interesting plot feature. You could go through the organizational points thing: +1 if you have more than one wife, +5 if you have a female slave, -10 if you attend a church that preaches against any of the tenets of your organization, etc. And someone with high enough standing in the org could get benefits - such as any spells cast from rods or staves are automatically extended (just kidding on that one), or discounts at the slave markets, or +1 Con at night...


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## xigbar

Hunter99 said:


> Well, I'm sure there will be many handsome knights in the order; there is bound to be at least one knight that catches a woman's eye.
> 
> And if you enjoy it, it's not rape.




There are drugs that can force you to enjoy it. There is Stockholm Syndrome, however, which is completely different.


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## domino

Hunter99 said:


> It is not exactly rape because the women are not forced to have sex involuntarily with someone.



"It's not _exactly _rape."

When you have to put qualifiers on a statement like that, it should be a big freaking warning sign.


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## Hunter99

xigbar said:


> Unless they're choosing to be chaste, which would imply that it's a choice, and choices usually imply freedom. That's just the basic Law of Syllogism at work.




It is freedom but not sexual freedom.

For instance, academic freedom is the freedom to do academic things.

Sexual freedom is the same way.


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## Arcadio

Hunter99 said:


> Well, I'm sure there will be many handsome knights in the order; there is bound to be at least one knight that catches a woman's eye.
> 
> And if you enjoy it, it's not rape.




A woman being attracted to her rapist does not make rape not rape.

Enjoying it does not make rape not rape.

Consenting makes it not rape.


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## Hunter99

Arcadio said:


> A woman being attracted to her rapist does not make rape not rape.
> 
> Enjoying it does not make rape not rape.
> 
> Consenting makes it not rape.




Let's agree to disagree.


----------



## domino

If people are not allowed to be athiest, do they still have religious freedom?

And, how do you justify arguing that chastity is unnatural, but also provide birth control and abortions for the natural results from having sex?


----------



## ExploderWizard

Hunter99 said:


> A chaste woman is not sexually free but rather sexually suppressed.




If the society mandates chastity then yes. If she lives in a free society and remains chaste by choice then no.


----------



## Hunter99

domino said:


> If people are not allowed to be athiest, do they still have religious freedom?
> 
> And, how do you justify arguing that chastity is unnatural, but also provide birth control and abortions for the natural results from having sex?




Birth control and abortion are human efforts to control their environment; they are similar to human beings building dams to prevent flooding. To argue that dams are preventing the natural results of flooding and therefore unnatural is absurd.

This organization believes that what it is doing is justified to achieve the greater good.

Of course, in real life forcing women one way or the other would be a violation of their rights.

Also it is possible that the founders of this organization never intended for the organization to force women one way or the other but that later leaders of the organization turned to evil as a means to achieve the greater good.


----------



## Hunter99

ExploderWizard said:


> If the society mandates chastity then yes. If she lives in a free society and remains chaste by choice then no.




She still remains sexually suppressed, only this time she is voluntarily suppressing her sexuality.


----------



## Dandu

Duke Arioch said:


> Who says christians are/were lawful good??!!


----------



## kitcik

First, let me say "so much for my above post and the idea of keeping this thread focussed on D&D."

Second, let me reflect on the following:



Arcadio said:


> Consenting makes it not rape.






Hunter99 said:


> Let's agree to disagree.




"*Rape* is a type of sexual assault usually involving sexual intercourse, which is initiated by one or more persons against another person without that person's consent."

I believe you are agreeing to disagree with 99.9% of the world and to brand yourself in an unwanted fashion. You may want to rethnk this position. During the course of your life, you will find that it is often better to admit you are wrong than to be a Wiener.


----------



## ExploderWizard

Hunter99 said:


> She still remains sexually suppressed, only this time she is voluntarily suppressing her sexuality.




So then a character who lives in a realm with religious freedom and decides to worship no deity is actually just theologically repressing themselves?


----------



## domino

But dams ARE unnatural.  Nothing absurd about that statement.

But that's not a problem because people don't go around talking about how flooding is natural and thus good.  In this particular tortured metaphor, there's a group of people (the knights of the human trafficed woman) who are forcing the rivers (women) to flood (have sex) because it's natural, while also building dams (condoms) to prevent the natural consequences.


----------



## Hunter99

kitcik said:


> First, let me say "so much for my above post and the idea of keeping this thread focussed on D&D."
> 
> Second, let me reflect on the following:
> 
> "*Rape* is a type of sexual assault usually involving sexual intercourse, which is initiated by one or more persons against another person without that person's consent."
> 
> I believe you are agreeing to disagree with 99.9% of the world and to brand yourself in an unwanted fashion. You may want to rethnk this position. During the course of your life, you will find that it is often better to admit you are wrong than to be a Wiener.




Of course lack of consent is rape, but when the women choose which man they have sex with they are consenting.


----------



## Hunter99

ExploderWizard said:


> So then a character who lives in a realm with religious freedom and decides to worship no deity is actually just theologically repressing themselves?




It is actually the other way around. Those who choose to worship a deity are suppressing doubt.


----------



## ExploderWizard

Hunter99 said:


> Of course lack of consent is rape, but when the women choose which man they have sex with they are consenting.




and when that choice becomes none of the above, what then?


----------



## kitcik

Hunter99 said:


> Of course lack of consent is rape, but when the women choose which man they have sex with they are consenting.




Your <insert female relative here> is abducted by a gang at gunpoint, brought to an abandoned warehouse and told to pick which one to have sex with. Consent? Ludicrous.


----------



## Hunter99

ExploderWizard said:


> and when that choice becomes none of the above, what then?




Then non-coercive enchantment spells to help the woman see the light, unless she is unsatified with the option of men before her in which case the knighthood will provide her within reasonable limits with other men from which to choose.


----------



## Hunter99

That is not consent, although I will have you know that Krishna in the Mahabharata kidnapped his wife-to-be.

Which shows that the Abduction is Love trope is older than dirt.


----------



## domino

And if she still chooses not to have sex within those reasonable limits?

Have you actually talked to any real live women about this idea, to see what they think about it?


----------



## Hunter99

That is where the knighthood has recourse to non-coercive enchantment spells.

Edit: This is a game. I do not advocate such actions in real life. Many in this thread have become much too serious as if I was advocating kidnapping in real life.


----------



## kitcik

dupe sorry


----------



## kitcik

Please roll a Spellcraft.

For those of you who succeeded, I have begun casting Call Lightning.

Here we go.

At what age are "women" "expected" (forced) to begin having sex? In other words, what age is old enough for "consent"?


----------



## ExploderWizard

Why does this particular expression of sexual freedom seem strangely familliar to a taste test of Spishak cola?


----------



## domino

What exactly is a _non-coercive_ enchantment spell that will _make sure_ someone has sex with another person?

And if you have to magic them into doing it, how much freedom would they actually be exercising when they do it?


----------



## Hunter99

Consent depends on the relative age of the man and the woman. If a woman is an adult, (18) then she can have sex with any man regardless of his age. (except children)

Then there is the case of teenagers. Teenagers if they are within relatively the same age category would also be allowed and encouraged to have sex. (For instance a 13 yr. old girl and a 15 year old boy.)

Seducing children on the part of adults would be severely punished in the knighthood.


----------



## the Jester

Hunter99 said:


> Let's agree to disagree.




No.

In fact, ABSOLUTELY NOT.

You are saying the equivalent of "Let's agree to disagree- you think if I take your money it's theft, but it isn't to me!"

Or how about, "I know you think that if I stab you in the face it is assault, but let's agree to disagree."



> That is where the knighthood has recourse to non-coercive enchantment spells.




Ahh, I begin to see the issue: your definition of "consent" and "coercion" are far removed from, you know, those used by reasonable people.

In the same "non-coercive" vein, I suppose your knights could bring a maiden to a torture chamber, explain the uses of all the tools and then ask her who she want to bang and that's not coercion either?

Seriously- you do not seem to have _any idea at all_ about the nature of consent. Your "non-coercive enchantments" are the magical equivalent of roofies. You know that you will go straight to jail for slipping some hottie roofies and sexing her up, right? Do you really not see the equivalence?

There is ABSOLUTELY. NO. WAY. you can paint what this order of knights you are describing is doing as anything but institutionalized mass gang rape.


----------



## Dandu

> Seducing children on the part of adults would be severely punished in the knighthood.



Repression!


----------



## Hunter99

domino said:


> What exactly is a _non-coercive_ enchantment spell that will _make sure_ someone has sex with another person?
> 
> And if you have to magic them into doing it, how much freedom would they actually be exercising when they do it?




An enchantment spell that does not involve intimidation, beatings etc.

Jester, I fully aware that this knighthood is evil. (Although I think they are doing a service to women.)

I am simply arguing from their side. My arguments are how they see it.

I do not advocate using drugs to rape anyone. That is evil, deplorable and such people should be executed.


----------



## Dandu

By lethal injection for added irony points?


----------



## domino

I'm not asking about a broad definition.  What spell.  You have to get this girl enchanted in order to have sex with someone, without using coercion.  What spell do you cast?


----------



## Dandu

Charm Person, Dominate Person, or Suggestion would be the obvious choice here, I'd imagine.


----------



## the Jester

Dandu said:


> Charm Person, Dominate Person, or Suggestion would be the obvious choice here, I'd imagine.




Or, for added amusement, _geas._ Give them a little time to work up to it... OR DIE!


----------



## domino

Charm person isn't going to be a sure thing, and Dominate is _by definition_ coercive.  Suggestion is pretty coercive as well.


----------



## ExploderWizard

Hunter99 said:


> An enchantment spell that does not involve intimidation, beatings etc.




That might qualify as non-violent but certainly not non-coercive. If a mage were to subvert the mind of a maiden into compliance with magic that would certainly not be considered consent even if she appeared enthusiastic after the application of the magic. It would simply be a case of raping her mind before the physical act took place.


----------



## Hunter99

I'd have thought that the spells to be used would have been pretty obvious.


----------



## Dandu

domino said:


> Charm person isn't going to be a sure thing, and Dominate is _by definition_ coercive.  Suggestion is pretty coercive as well.



It does not involve violence or intimidation so it is not coercive. Duh. [/sarcasm]

Hunter99, let me be frank here. I have noticed - correct me if I'm wrong - a lot of the flak you seem to be getting stems from what your personal views on things are, not the campaign organization you are proposing. For instance, when you said that homosexuality was unnatural, but not lesbianism. Which, you know, is a wallbanger. There are more examples.


----------



## the Jester

Hunter99 said:


> I'd have thought that the spells to be used would have been pretty obvious.




Spells that will _do the job_ are quite obvious.

Spells that will _do the job without coercion_ are the question.


----------



## Bagpuss

Hunter99 said:


> An enchantment spell that does not involve intimidation, beatings etc.
> 
> (snip)
> 
> I do not advocate using drugs to rape anyone. That is evil, deplorable and such people should be executed.




Okay but you are advocating for an order of knights that does exactly that (only in a fantasy sense, where drugs are replaced by magic). You also admit the knighthood is evil, yet you say you think it is doing a service to women. You're basically saying you think using a date rape drug to encourage women to be more sexually active is evil, but you think it is a good idea.


----------



## kitcik

Hunter99 said:


> Edit: This is a game. I do not advocate such actions in real life. Many in this thread have become much too serious as if I was advocating kidnapping in real life.




That is what I said here:



kitcik said:


> I think I can spell out the confusion for everyone.
> 
> ...In this quote you are saying that the Knights are perverted bastards that believe they are good but are likely perceived by everyone else as evil (as an earlier responder said). This is a good basis for discussion of a D&D world organization.
> 
> ...Here you are saying that your own view is that sexual freedom does not include chastity. This is the lightning rod for flames regarding your insensitivity, etc. Personally, I find this view extremely uninformed at best.
> 
> Without going too far on a tangent, autoroticism seems to be sexual in nature... And yet this is not part of sexual freedom?
> 
> In any case, I think we would benefit by keeping the thread focussed on the first point.




But then you insist on making statements like this:



Hunter99 said:


> Jester, I fully aware that this knighthood is evil. (Although I think they are doing a service to women.)




Now, you are advocating rape in the opinion of most posters. I won't reiterate the many points that have already been made.

I once again suggest you keep these opinions to yourself and rethink them over time, and focus ONLY on the game-related aspects of your post.


----------



## Hunter99

Dandu said:


> It does not involve violence or intimidation so it is not coercive. Duh. [/sarcasm]
> 
> Hunter99, let me be frank here. I have noticed - correct me if I'm wrong - a lot of the flak you seem to be getting stems from what your personal views on things are, not the campaign organization you are proposing. For instance, when you said that homosexuality was unnatural, but not lesbianism. Which, you know, is a wallbanger. There are more examples.




I liked the piece about the French.

Kitcik, I think the knighthood in it's efforts to educate and promote sexual freedom is doing a service to women.

When it engages in more dubious activity that is, of course, a violation of the woman's rights.

Edit: I am interested in the other examples, Dandu, which you think express my personal views.


----------



## Darwinism

Still waiting for a list of non-coercive spells that will be used to coerce a woman to have sex because being forced to have sex is sexual liberation and not rape.


----------



## kitcik

Hunter99 said:


> Edit: I am interested in the other examples, Dandu, which you think express my personal views.




I was bored so here we go. [MENTION=85158]Dandu[/MENTION] , you can thank me later.



Hunter99 said:


> Being ravished still rates as the most popular female fantasy so I consider the actions of this organization to be helping women who otherwise might not have the courage to break away from the conditioning of the society to do so.
> 
> Anyways, it's not like the organization is forcing women to do something they wouldn't already want to do if society did not stigmatize sexual freedom. They retain full freedom to choose their sexual partners, they just can't be chaste which is like forbidding something unnatural such as standing on one's head.
> 
> Edit: I do not condone any non-consensual sexual activity in real life. This is a role-playing game which is flirting with mature themes. I fully respect an individual's right to choose their sexual partner or to do things which are unnatural such as take vows of celibacy even though I may disapprove of such vows.






Hunter99 said:


> The majority of efforts have been in the opposite direction, to forcing sexual suppression which also received broad popular support in it's goals and efforts as it still does in many backward parts of the world.






Hunter99 said:


> In real life I support gay marriage, even though I think homosexuality is unnatural (not lesbianism mind you, just homosexuality.)






Hunter99 said:


> It seems to me that if such a knighthood were to ever exist and to seize power, whether in real life or in D&D, it would take place in a country like France.






Hunter99 said:


> There, and Europe more broadly.






Hunter99 said:


> I did not say full freedom, I said full sexual freedom. Sexual freedom does not include chastity.






Hunter99 said:


> And if you enjoy it, it's not rape.






Hunter99 said:


> A chaste woman is not sexually free but rather sexually suppressed.






Hunter99 said:


> Of course lack of consent is rape, but when the women choose which man they have sex with they are consenting.


----------



## Tewligan

Hunter99 said:


> Let me start out by saying that many responders to this thread seem to take this too seriously, instead of in the spirit of humor and light-heartedness in which it was meant.



Haha. Yeah, rape IS pretty hilarious.


----------



## Hunter99

Tewligan said:


> Haha. Yeah, rape IS pretty hilarious.




Rape is not hilarious, but this is a game, not real life.

If I was advocating rape in real life it would be something else entirely.

And the knights are not raping the women. They are kidnapping them and educating them for sexual freedom. The women can choose among the many knights of the order. It is just chastity that is forbidden.


----------



## jonesy

Hunter99 said:


> ...Knights of the Scarlet Woman...
> 
> ...who seek to liberate women sexually...
> 
> ...order of knights who see it as their duty to fight sexual suppression and liberate women from the prison of chastity...
> 
> ...liberate women from the bonds of chastity...
> 
> ...swore an oath that they would never rest until every woman on the face of the earth had been liberated sexually...
> 
> ...One hundred years ago, the knights lead a revolution in one country, X, (unnamed to allow adaptation for different settings.) and seized the reins of power after the people had become cynical after repeatedly seeing the corruption, bigotry and false promises of the Knights of the Virgin. As a result popular opinion shifted in that country and the people of that country discovered a newfound dedication to love and romance which had been suppressed by the Knights of the Virgin as sin and godlessness...
> 
> ...became the first knighthood in history to allow women to become equal members with all the rights and privileges as men...
> 
> ...Membership is open to all men and women who are willing to abide by the rules of the order...
> 
> ...Knights upon entry take a vow to remain bachelors all their life, to renounce jealousy and possessiveness and not to hoard their love by only loving one man or woman but many. All those seeking membership also go through an initiation ritual which includes the blaspheming of the symbols of the Knights of the Virgin, orgies, feasting and the ritual deflowering of a (willing) virgin...
> 
> ...They have a duty to fight for the order when called upon and to be courageous (although not stupid) in the face of persecution and difficulty...
> 
> ...The order regularly kidnaps beautiful women who would otherwise have been caged in the prison of chastity. The women are educated (and brainwashed if necessary) and trained to become scarlet women. They have all the rights and privileges of members of the order except for the following restrictions:
> A. They cannot leave the order.
> B. They can choose their sexual partners but they cannot choose to be chaste.
> Most of these young women choose to stay in the order and those who are recalcitrant are enchanted by various charm spells into cooperating. They are not forced to have sex with someone they do not want to and they are not physically abused. Only non-coercive enchantment spells are used...
> 
> ...The order is structured on democratic lines for the election of representatives to the senate and the senate then gives a charter to military commanders to carry out military operations in various areas. Men and women are equal participants in the senate and the proportion of men and women is roughly equal...
> 
> ...The Knights of the Virgin consider the order to be evil while more pagan persons consider them to be heroes. The Knights of the Scarlet Women have found allies among druids, thieves guilds, the fey, bards and certain demons and devils. (such as Succubi and Eriynes.



So let me get this straight.

They are composed of equal amounts of men and women. These men and women then kidnap women, brainwash them, rape them, and make them members who are then expected to do the same.

They are against persecution, but they themselves persecute against gay men and virgin women.

They speak of love and romance, but to them that means sex and orgies?

They speak of sexual liberation, but to them that means sexual surrender?

They liberate women from chastity by imprisoning them within an order where they will be raped and forced to commit rape themselves never to be able to leave.

And the local druids, thieves guilds, the fey, and bards support this?

Oh, and they have vowed to liberate every woman, except they only take the beautiful ones? What, they just kill the rest to 'liberate' them?

And you say these women that they take consent to it, even though *you yourself used the term brainwash*?

Damn.


----------



## Dandu

> And the knights are not raping the women. They are kidnapping them and  educating them for sexual freedom. The women can choose among the many  knights of the order. It is just chastity that is forbidden.



So it's kind of like being in prison, where you have the freedom to choose who you end up... serving, but the service itself is mandatory upon pain of... stuff.


----------



## PureGoldx58

Hunter99 said:


> Rape is not hilarious, but this is a game, not real life.
> 
> If I was advocating rape in real life it would be something else entirely.
> 
> And the knights are not raping the women. They are kidnapping them and educating them for sexual freedom. The women can choose among the many knights of the order. It is just chastity that is forbidden.





Many things...so many things. 

One: I like the group as a whole and will probably steal your idea and cite no source because you are lost in whatever you call reality. 

Two: My gods I hope you are trolling or else I suggest you either look up the definition to the words you are using. (namely rape, coercion, freedom, homosexuality, french [they make GREAT FRIES!] ) Or seek professional help.

Three: From here on out this is me assuming you aren't doing this on purpose. People are disagreeing with what you say because you are giving opinions that aren't debatable, or really even opinions, they are wrong.

Four: Your posts scream ignorance and promotion of rape in a large way. I personally find misogynistic jokes hilarious...when they are jokes. But you are pushing boundaries that are borderline sociopathic. (assuming that is the proper term)

Five: This topic, like the other has been derailed and crashed and thrown around in a horrific way. Please delete it or remove it if you can.

Edit: In response to my actual quote: Light-hearted usually refers to comedy in some form. Hence him saying "rape is funny" meaning that you are saying that in so many words and if you don't see that just...stop...posting.


----------



## Dandu

My respect for the French has gone up recently due to the Libya situation. Seems like they finally outgrew their surrendermonkey days.


----------



## PureGoldx58

Elf Witch said:


> And after a flurry of emails one summed it up nicely after I looked at the OP age. "Oh that explains so much"




I swear, my age group isn't all like this.


----------



## Dandu

As something of an aside, I thought the most popular female fantasy involved a guy who cooks and takes out the trash?

(Which, incidentally, is something I do.)


----------



## PureGoldx58

Dandu said:


> My respect for the French has gone up recently due to the Libya situation. Seems like they finally outgrew their surrendermonkey days.




Being from Louisiana I have to say it is about time. Now all they have to do is adapt their love for food into a love for war!


----------



## PureGoldx58

Dandu said:


> As something of an aside, I thought the most popular female fantasy involved a guy who cooks and takes out the trash?
> 
> (Which, incidentally, is something I do.)




I thought it was a guy who drives a Harley....plus those things.


----------



## Bagpuss

Hunter99 said:


> And the knights are not raping the women.




I think we have pretty much established that they would be in many cases, if not all.


----------



## kitcik

Come now, a real woman's fantasy is a guy who lives with his parents, bathes only when legally required, and has memorized the rules to at least 37 game systems. At least, that's what all the babes on WOW tell me.


----------



## Dandu

Another aside: What do people here think of reeducation? (Notable examples include gulags and labor reform camps)


----------



## Hunter99

I did not say that all the women are brainwashed, only those who are recalcitrant.

As a side note: when I came up with this idea, I was patterning them after the knights of neraka/takhisis in Dragonlance.


----------



## kitcik

Dandu said:


> Another aside: What do people here think of reeducation? (Notable examples include gulags and labor reform camps)




Effective peasant control / militia raising method, although you need to have patience.

To be clear, in RL I am against it LOL.


----------



## jonesy

Hunter99 said:


> I did not say that all the women are brainwashed, only those who are recalcitrant.



"Would you like to eat this lovely bucketful of rape, or do we need to forcefeed it to you?"


----------



## Dandu

kitcik said:


> Effective peasant control / militia raising method, although you need to have patience.
> 
> To be clear, in RL I am against it LOL.



Sure you are... COMRADE.


----------



## kitcik

Hunter99 said:


> I did not say that all the women are brainwashed, only those who are recalcitrant.




"Only the non-consenting ones are forced, so it's ok."

Educational cuts --> no more ethics classes, no more logic classes. 

We have no one to blame but ourselves.

Although I thought that gamers were a leg up on the rest of society. I really did.


----------



## Dandu

Serves you right for being an optimist.

Comrade.


----------



## PureGoldx58

Gamers are usually above the cut, think of how much worse this would have been if he wasn't a gamer?


----------



## Darwinism

Hunter99 said:


> And the knights are not raping the women. They are kidnapping them and educating them for sexual freedom. The women can choose among the many knights of the order. It is just chastity that is forbidden.




"We're not gonna rape you, but if you choose not to have sex we're gonna rape you."

Goddamn that is some crazy cognitive dissonance.

You know what sexual freedom encompasses? The freedom to say no.



kitcik said:


> Although I thought that gamers were a leg up on the rest of society. I really did.




ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

oh my god I can't breath


----------



## Loren Pechtel

Hunter99 said:


> The order regularly kidnaps beautiful women who would otherwise have been caged in the prison of chastity. The women are educated (and brainwashed if necessary)
> ...
> What can be said about the morality of this controversial order? That, dear reader, is for you to judge.
> 
> What do you think?




Without a doubt, evil.  Probably neutral evil.


----------



## Elf Witch

Where to start. First the idea that choosing to be chaste is some how unnatural is just ludicrous. 

There are a lot of reasons people choose to be chaste here are just a few.

Elite athletes often forgo sex while they are training.

Some people prefer to have sex only when they are in a committed relationship. 

Some people are grieving the loss of a loved one and don't desire sex with a new person at this time. 

Some woman don't desire sex for awhile after the birth of a child.

Some view abstinence as a way to get closer to god. Or to improve the mind like some monks.

So your knights would force woman to have sex even if they have a reason for choosing abstinence like they want to concentrate on their spirituality or becoming better warriors? Or they want to to only have sex with a man they love or a woman for that matter?

And if the woman didn't want it she is not allowed to say no she has to have sex the only choice she has is with who. And if she does not then she is coerced with magic. And you can't see that is a form of rape.

You are right these are some evil SOBs and there should be a bunch of paladins in the world ready to do battle and take this group down.

I don't have an issue with a group like this in a DnD world as long as you portray them as the evil folk they are. 

I find it disturbing that you really can't see that what you are saying is not only extremely offensive to people who believe in sexual freedom but a little scary as well. 

I can understand because of your youth that you might not have a lot of experience with woman. Let me explain something to you about how some woman view sex. For some woman sex outside of a relationship is not something they enjoy. For a lot of woman sex is both a physical and emotional thing as well. The way woman's bodies are built they don't have as easy a time reaching climax as men do. Part of this has to do with the fact that enjoying sex for woman has nothing to do with conception. 

For woman a lot of trust in their partner and being able to relax enough to enjoy sex is needed to reach climax which is kind of hard to do with someone you don't know.

Your knighthood has taken love and trust out of the equation for these woman. These woman would not view these men as liberators but as monsters.


----------



## the Jester

Hunter99 said:


> And the knights are not raping the women. They are kidnapping them and educating them for sexual freedom. The women can choose among the many knights of the order. It is just chastity that is forbidden.




So they aren't raping them- as long as they submit to rape first. Great. 

Try this: Imagine that this were a real world group, then imagine how the authorities would treat them.

(Hint: As an organization dedicated to kidnapping and gang-raping.)

Still waiting for the non-coercive spell that will make me have sex with you, btw.

The problem here (to echo someone upthread) is that you insist on defending rape as not-rape. Please, if you ever ask a girl on a date, discuss this with her and get her take on it BEFORE you ask her, and see how she responds.


----------



## Loren Pechtel

Hunter99 said:


> The symbol of this knighthood is a nymph and a succubus making out so that should have shed some light on where I stand.
> 
> In real life I support gay marriage, even though I think homosexuality is unnatural (not lesbianism mind you, just homosexuality.)
> 
> In the game, this organization would frown upon men having sexual relationships with one another although women would be fully free and encouraged to do so.




Huh?  The status of male-male and female-female relationships are the same.  You can't have one being natural and one being unnatural.

Furthermore, lesbianism *IS* homosexuality!


----------



## Loren Pechtel

Hunter99 said:


> I did not say full freedom, I said full sexual freedom. Sexual freedom does not include chastity.




Freedom includes the freedom to say no.


----------



## PureGoldx58

Elf Witch said:


> Where to start. First the idea that choosing to be chaste is some how unnatural is just ludicrous.
> 
> There are a lot of reasons people choose to be chaste here are just a few.
> 
> Elite athletes often forgo sex while they are training.
> 
> Some people prefer to have sex only when they are in a committed relationship.
> 
> Some people are grieving the loss of a loved one and don't desire sex with a new person at this time.
> 
> Some woman don't desire sex for awhile after the birth of a child.
> 
> Some view abstinence as a way to get closer to god. Or to improve the mind like some monks.
> 
> So your knights would force woman to have sex even if they have a reason for choosing abstinence like they want to concentrate on their spirituality or becoming better warriors? Or they want to to only have sex with a man they love or a woman for that matter?
> 
> And if the woman didn't want it she is not allowed to say no she has to have sex the only choice she has is with who. And if she does not then she is coerced with magic. And you can't see that is a form of rape.
> 
> You are right these are some evil SOBs and there should be a bunch of paladins in the world ready to do battle and take this group down.
> 
> I don't have an issue with a group like this in a DnD world as long as you portray them as the evil folk they are.
> 
> I find it disturbing that you really can't see that what you are saying is not only extremely offensive to people who believe in sexual freedom but a little scary as well.
> 
> I can understand because of your youth that you might not have a lot of experience with woman. Let me explain something to you about how some woman view sex. For some woman sex outside of a relationship is not something they enjoy. For a lot of woman sex is both a physical and emotional thing as well. The way woman's bodies are built they don't have as easy a time reaching climax as men do. Part of this has to do with the fact that enjoying sex for woman has nothing to do with conception.
> 
> For woman a lot of trust in their partner and being able to relax enough to enjoy sex is needed to reach climax which is kind of hard to do with someone you don't know.
> 
> Your knighthood has taken love and trust out of the equation for these woman. These woman would not view these men as liberators but as monsters.





I'm with you minus the "youth thing" his age has nothing to do with it. In fact most people in my age group (I am 22) have a lot of experience dealing with women in every fashion especially in a social aspect. High Schools are fairly equal in their distribution of male and female in classes and extracurricular activities nowadays. 

Everything you said was spot on though, but his age has allotted him enough interaction with the female side of humanity for that to have no effect on his development of those...opinions.

I am mainly defending his age because I am not far off from his age but have a LOT more experience with women seeing as how 99% of my friends are women.


----------



## Hunter99

I don't see how this should be scary since I do not advocate this sort of thing in real life.

I am not defending rape as not-rape.

I am aware that this organization is evil, although the knighthood does not believe itself to be evil.


----------



## Loren Pechtel

kitcik said:


> Please roll a Spellcraft.
> 
> For those of you who succeeded, I have begun casting Call Lightning.
> 
> Here we go.
> 
> At what age are "women" "expected" (forced) to begin having sex? In other words, what age is old enough for "consent"?




Stupid spell choice.  The right one in this case is horrid wilting!


----------



## PureGoldx58

Hunter99 said:


> I don't see how this should be scary since I do not advocate this sort of thing in real life.
> 
> I am not defending rape as not-rape.
> 
> I am aware that this organization is evil, although the knighthood does not believe itself to be evil.




Your words are saying otherwise. We aren't talking about when you are "defending from their point-of-view" either. There have been quotes depicting you saying "and I believe, etc." and along those lines.


----------



## the Jester

Hunter99 said:


> I am not defending rape as not-rape.




Here is the problem: *YES YOU ARE.*

Throughout this thread you insist that the order of knighthood you are discussing isn't raping women. *THEY ARE.*

You insist "It isn't rape if you choose your partner." If "no partner" is not one of your options, *YES IT IS.*

You are insisting that brainwashing or magical enchantment make it not rape. *IT STILL IS.*

You insist that "sexual freedom" means "you must have sex with someone!" *THAT IS NOT SEXUAL FREEDOM.*

Seriously, I know you aren't seeing it, but believe me- you are totally being a rape supporter right now, not just in the context of the order of knighthood under discussion, but in the way you are framing the discussion, in the assumptions underlying everything you're saying and in the attitude that you have (which you seem completely oblivious to) regarding a woman's right to choose what (and who!) to do with her body.

It is very rare that I say this to anyone about anything, but your comments are completely indefensible.


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## Hunter99

I have had a good laugh throughout this discussion.

Yes, I am aware that if no is not one of your options then you are not free.

My statements were fully intentional and intended to be more humorous and non-serious than anything else.


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## PureGoldx58

Hunter99 said:


> I have had a good laugh throughout this discussion.
> 
> Yes, I am aware that if no is not one of your options then you are not free.
> 
> My statements were fully intentional and intended to be more humorous and non-serious than anything else.




I called troll ages ago. No one could be that dense.


----------



## Hunter99

Although, if the women of the order persevere in their love they might be able to reform and redeem these knights and make the order a force for good, no?


----------



## the Jester

Hunter99 said:


> I have had a good laugh throughout this discussion.
> 
> Yes, I am aware that if no is not one of your options then you are not free.
> 
> My statements were fully intentional and intended to be more humorous and non-serious than anything else.




Well, that will certainly help you get people to take your threads seriously! Yes, a reputation as a rape-supporting troll usually does wonders for one's online status and earns one a great deal of respect. 

Good luck with the girls!

This might be a better place for this sort of thing in the future, although we get a little rough over there.


----------



## kitcik

Why is it that when I search on D&D stuff, I get hits on ENWOrld, Brilliant gameologists, giants in the playground, etc. but I never get a hit on circus maximus?


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## Darwinism

Hunter99 said:


> Although, if the women of the order persevere in their love they might be able to reform and redeem these knights and make the order a force for good, no?




Hmm, yes, there is a long and storied history of rapists becoming forces for good

Oh wait no there's not


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## the Jester

kitcik said:


> Why is it that when I search on D&D stuff, I get hits on ENWOrld, Brilliant gameologists, giants in the playground, etc. but I never get a hit on circus maximus?




Google personalizes search results an awful lot. That may have something to do with it.

Beyond that, CM isn't really a gaming forum per se, although there's a ton of gaming talk and gamers over there.


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## PureGoldx58

the Jester said:


> Google personalizes search results an awful lot. That may have something to do with it.
> 
> Beyond that, CM isn't really a gaming forum per se, although there's a ton of gaming talk and gamers over there.




I found ENworld through Google (all hail our future overlords) consistently sending me to threads here when I typed in a 3.5 question.


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## Elf Witch

PureGoldx58 said:


> I'm with you minus the "youth thing" his age has nothing to do with it. In fact most people in my age group (I am 22) have a lot of experience dealing with women in every fashion especially in a social aspect. High Schools are fairly equal in their distribution of male and female in classes and extracurricular activities nowadays.
> 
> Everything you said was spot on though, but his age has allotted him enough interaction with the female side of humanity for that to have no effect on his development of those...opinions.
> 
> I am mainly defending his age because I am not far off from his age but have a LOT more experience with women seeing as how 99% of my friends are women.




I was willing to give him some slack because of his age. It is possible that he has not really dated or had a lot of female friends who he could talk to about this.

For all I know he went to an all male school.

Just for the record I am not saying that all young people of this age group is this off the wall about sexuality.


----------



## RUMBLETiGER

Hunter99 said:


> Let me start out by saying that many responders to this thread seem to take this too seriously, instead of in the spirit of humor and light-heartedness in which it was meant.
> 
> The women in this organization have full sexual freedom, they just can't choose to be chaste.
> 
> As far as the children, I am working on a spell to prevent pregnancies and to safely abort a fetus if necessary in the Birth Control and D&D thread.






Hunter99 said:


> I never said that rape was okay.
> 
> What I said was that the Knights of the Scarlet Woman think that by kidnapping women and educating them to be sexually free they are liberating women from the bonds of chastity.
> 
> It is not exactly rape because the women are not forced to have sex involuntarily with someone. They are simply forbidden from being chaste, otherwise they retain full freedom to choose their sexual partner. If it was rape, they wouldn't retain such freedom.






Hunter99 said:


> I did not say that all the women are brainwashed, only those who are recalcitrant.
> 
> As a side note: when I came up with this idea, I was patterning them after the knights of neraka/takhisis in Dragonlance.




Hunter99, perhaps if you could clarify one single point, we'd understand where the apparent conflict lies.

Woman joins the order, lets say on her own free will.  She buys into the guidelines of the order.  She looks around, doesn't see any gentlemen she'd like to have sex with at this time.  Some more time passes, she still hasn't found a guy she'd like to choose.  She's still open to the idea of finding a guy, she just hasn't yet.  Clarify these 2 questions:

1. How much time does she have to make her choice?  Days? Weeks? Years?

2. If, by whatever the time limit is in the answer to question 1, she does not select and have sex with a man, how does the order resolve this choice?


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## PureGoldx58

Elf Witch said:


> I was willing to give him some slack because of his age. It is possible that he has not really dated or had a lot of female friends who he could talk to about this.
> 
> For all I know he went to an all male school.
> 
> Just for the record I am not saying that all young people of this age group is this off the wall about sexuality.




I didn't think you were, really, I just wanted to point out that his age might actually make it worse because from my personal observations most men my age, boys really, have had plenty of interaction between genders.


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## Dandu

RUMBLETiGER said:


> Hunter99, perhaps if you could clarify one single point, we'd understand where the apparent conflict lies.
> 
> Woman joins the order, lets say on her own free will.  She buys into the guidelines of the order.  She looks around, doesn't see any gentlemen she'd like to have sex with at this time.  Some more time passes, she still hasn't found a guy she'd like to choose.  She's still open to the idea of finding a guy, she just hasn't yet.  Clarify these 2 questions:
> 
> 1. How much time does she have to make her choice?  Days? Weeks? Years?
> 
> 2. If, by whatever the time limit is in the answer to question 1, she does not select and have sex with a man, how does the order resolve this choice?







​


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## Hunter99

I'm sure there are plenty of suitable men available if a woman is interested in having a relationship.

I would not place any time limits, unless the woman was suspected of intentionally deceiving the order to maintain her chastity.

If a woman remained without entering into sexual relationships for too long, the knighthood would most likely take this to be an abnormal sign and investigate. Perhaps even provide some "encouragement" in the form of enchantment spells unless the woman was of high ranking and known to be trustworthy.

Edit: Dandu, this doesn't seem to be very polite. This has been a very enjoyable and fun discussion, why would you want to stop it?


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## StreamOfTheSky

Hunter99 said:


> It seems to me that if such a knighthood were to ever exist and to seize power, whether in real life or in D&D, it would take place in a country like France.
> 
> Therefore I have decided to model the country where this revolution takes place after France. That will also be the location of the headquarters of the knighthood.




"Yet Another Effort, Frenchmen, If You Would Become Republicans."


Sorry, I didn't bother reading this thread till tonight, but I just had to get that in there.


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## Hunter99

As a matter of fact, I have read Marquis De Sade.

The motto, "the sun shines no less brightly on you, because it shines on others" was from his works.


----------



## RUMBLETiGER

Hunter99 said:


> I'm sure there are plenty of suitable men available if a woman is interested in having a relationship.



 I'm imagining an order such at this would draw men interested in guaranteed sex.  It's just designed for it.  Men with this motivation, masked in some sort of honor code, might not be attractive in character for women.  Even if a man does have chivalrous intentions, a woman might be so skeptical after finding so many not-chivalrous men trying to cover up that she might not think there are plenty of suitable men.



Hunter99 said:


> If a woman remained without entering into sexual relationships for too long, the knighthood would most likely take this to be an abnormal sign and investigate. Perhaps even provide some "encouragement" in the form of enchantment spells unless the woman was of high ranking and known to be trustworthy.



 And THIS is exactly where the freedom is taken away.  Knowing that this is the end result of taking too much time will always be in the back of a woman's mind.  The men who have entered this order, the one's driven by the desire for easy sex and are just playing along with seeming to be upstanding, will be keeping track of these women, looking to apply pressure.  The guidelines of such an order will be abused, unless you are also magically influencing the men as well to respect the woman's choice.  Perhaps all the men entering the order would be placed under a _Geas_ spell to respect the woman's choice?

Also, if the woman is "Encouraged", what/who determines the specific guy this encouragement moves her towards?  the guys who happen to be standing in the room when the "Encouragement" is cast?  Is she free to receive this "Encouragement"  and then be released into the world to still take her time making a free will choice?



Hunter99 said:


> Edit: Dandu, this doesn't seem to be very polite. This has been a very enjoyable and fun discussion, why would you want to stop it?



Hunter, I think it's because you are the ONLY person enjoying this discussion, while everyone else (Myself included) are at different degrees of upset by the way you've responded to to the progression of this conversation.


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## RUMBLETiGER

I want to repeat and expand one of my previous statements.  If every man entering this Order voluntarily was placed under a _Geas_ spell, binding them to respect the woman's choice, and each man was monitored to confirm that this _Geas_ stayed in place, this order might actually work.


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## Hunter99

I suppose the suggestion would take the form of "find a suitable man with which to have sexual and romantic relationships with."

This knighthood was intended to be an organization of libertines who have come together for the satisfaction of the desires of the flesh.

Of course, all coercion could be removed from the organization and instead the organization could be structured along purely voluntary lines.

Then, the coercion could be moved to a sister organization that would take care of all the dirty work leaving the Knights of the Scarlet Woman with good PR.


----------



## StreamOfTheSky

Hunter99 said:


> As a matter of fact, I have read Marquis De Sade.
> 
> The motto, "the sun shines no less brightly on you, because it shines on others" was from his works.




I was curious if you had.  I'm a huge fan of his writings and saw some similarities in your views and his, though in your case not advocated for nearly as well or consistently.  I think you need to read him more, though, because your little Knight order is taking things to a level even he'd be against.  As he says right in "Yet Another Effort, Frenchmen, if You Would Become Republicans":

"...for, it will be agreed, to seek to impose universal laws would be a palpable absurdity: such a proceeding would be as ridiculous as that of the general who would have all his soldiers dressed in a uniform of the same size; it is a terrible injustice to require that men of unlike character all be ruled by the same law: what is good for one is not at all good for another."


----------



## Hunter99

StreamOfTheSky said:


> I was curious if you had. I'm a huge fan of his writings and saw some similarities in your views and his, though in your case not advocated for nearly as well or consistently. I think you need to read him more, though, because your little Knight order is taking things to a level even he'd be against. As he says right in "Yet Another Effort, Frenchmen, if You Would Become Republicans":
> 
> "...for, it will be agreed, to seek to impose universal laws would be a palpable absurdity: such a proceeding would be as ridiculous as that of the general who would have all his soldiers dressed in a uniform of the same size; it is a terrible injustice to require that men of unlike character all be ruled by the same law: what is good for one is not at all good for another."




Actually from my readings of him, he does not seem to be against it. He thinks that rape should be legalized so he would probably approve of this knighthood.

As far as his statement that imposing universal laws on individuals is an absurdity, I disagree.

Without general rules of individual just conduct imposed on all without exception there can be no rule of law and therefore no liberty in society. In the absence of general rules of just conduct there would reign that dreadful condition of a rule of men and not laws.

Only universal rules of just conduct imposed on all can ensure that the government does not arrogate arbitary power to itself.

I would suggest reading Friedrich Hayek for more on that.


----------



## the Jester

Hunter99 said:


> Edit: Dandu, this doesn't seem to be very polite. This has been a very enjoyable and fun discussion, why would you want to stop it?




You have admitted that you are trolling. Furthermore, you are trolling about rape, which is something that many posters find objectionable and some may have actually experienced. Worst of all, you are trolling about rape _on ENWorld,_ just barely skirting offending Eric's grandma. As for it being a "very enjoyable and fun discussion," while some of us are doubtless enjoying it, others are doubtless finding it horrific and scarring.

Don't be shocked if you get a whole lot of STFU type comments, dude- you really are begging for them.


----------



## domino

I don't think he's actually trolling, given how much work went into the Codex Rapeolgia up there.  I think he's serious, but backpedaling to try to say "no no, _I _don't approve of rape, I just approve of what these hypothetical rapists would do."


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## PureGoldx58

domino said:


> I don't think he's actually trolling, given how much work went into the Codex Rapeolgia up there.  I think he's serious, but backpedaling to try to say "no no, _I _don't approve of rape, I just approve of what these hypothetical rapists would do."




I believe that, I also don't know what sarcasm is or means.


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## Hunter99

Have I said that I was trolling? I certainly have not said such a thing.

I certainly was serious about my idea, although I did not know that my idea would be taken as a reflection on my real life views.


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## Dandu

They would not if you had not brought in your real life views.


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## Darwinism

Hunter99 said:


> Have I said that I was trolling? I certainly have not said such a thing.
> 
> I certainly was serious about my idea, although I did not know that my idea would be taken as a reflection on my real life views.




People don't spend time writing up detailed plans for things they have no attraction to.

Oh and the parts where you disagree on the definition of rape, yeah, those are the parts where your personal views on rape show through.


----------



## Hunter99

I was not writing up a "plan" if by that you mean something I intended to act on.

Of course the libertine lifetyle is deeply appealing to me, but that does not make me a rapist.

Just as Dominique Strauss-Kahn does not become a rapist because he is a libertine. (I think he's innocent by the way.)


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## Dandu

There is no innocence, only degrees of guilt.


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## Hunter99

All men are sinners, huh?

Or did you mean something else by that?


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## Elf Witch

Hunter99 said:


> I was not writing up a "plan" if by that you mean something I intended to act on.
> 
> Of course the libertine lifetyle is deeply appealing to me, but that does not make me a rapist.
> 
> Just as Dominique Strauss-Kahn does not become a rapist because he is a libertine. (I think he's innocent by the way.)




Why does this not surprise me.

I was curious about your other group. Do they not allow woman to marry and have sex? Because that seems rather short sighted if you want your race to continue and not die out. 

I am also wondering if you have any female players in your game and if your fellow players would want to act out this kind of scenario?   

I am not sure many of the groups I play with would want to actually have a theme like this unless it was to take the knights down.


----------



## Hunter99

Having children is something different than the libertine lifestyle.

It is possible for two Knights of the Scarlet Woman to get together and have children and continue their libertine lifestyle.

I play online so I do not whether the persons I play with are male or female.

There are persons of many different stripes and colors in this world.

Don't be surprised if you find persons who would want to play in a game with this sort of theme.

After all, you have already found one.​


----------



## Ettin

Byron Hall?

Is that you?


----------



## Hunter99

I am not sure who Byron Hall is, but no, it is not I.


----------



## Dandu

Hunter99 said:


> All men are sinners, huh?
> 
> Or did you mean something else by that?



Everyone is guilty of something. The only question is of what.


----------



## Ettin

Hunter99 said:


> Don't be surprised if you find persons who would want to play in a game with this sort of theme.
> 
> After all, you have already found one.​




If you're looking for more...


----------



## Hunter99

Dandu said:


> Everyone is guilty of something. The only question is of what.




Perfection is an inhuman standard; and perfectionism is a disease.


----------



## Elf Witch

Hunter99 said:


> Having children is something different than the libertine lifestyle.
> 
> It is possible for two Knights of the Scarlet Woman to get together and have children and continue their libertine lifestyle.
> 
> I play online so I do not whether the persons I play with are male or female.
> 
> There are persons of many different stripes and colors in this world.
> 
> Don't be surprised if you find persons who would want to play in a game with this sort of theme.
> 
> After all, you have already found one.​




I didn't ask about the libertine knights but the knights of virgins. I wanted to know what there outlook was on woman and chastity and if they allowed woman to marry lose their chastity and have children? 

Like I said before I have no issue with a group like the knights being in a game as a foe for the PCs to hunt down and destroy. As the heroes well that really gives me the creeps that people would really want to role play out rape.

But then as a player and a DM I don't like evil campaigns.


----------



## Hunter99

A hero could approve of the goals of the Knights of the Scarlet Woman and disapprove of their means.

As far as the Knights of the Virgin are concerned, they were patterned after Christianity so their views would be similar. (although in keeping with forum rules, let's not take this discussion anywhere near religion.)


----------



## PureGoldx58

Dandu said:


> They would not if you had not brought in your real life views.




^ This. You said "I, I , I, I " Through out the entire post.


----------



## Darwinism

Hunter99 said:


> A hero could approve of the goals of the Knights of the Scarlet Woman and disapprove of their means.




Nope. Their goal isn't sexual liberation, you see. It's sexual subjugation.

In any situation where a person isn't given full choice in sexual activity it's not liberating.

So until your Knights start pounding manass because it's sexually liberating and accepting women's decisions for no sex because it's sexually liberating all you're designing is a rape camp.


----------



## StreamOfTheSky

Darwinism said:


> So until your Knights start pounding manass because it's sexually liberating and accepting women's decisions for no sex because it's sexually liberating all you're designing is a rape camp.




"This one time, at rape camp..."


----------



## Ettin

Hunter99 said:


> (although in keeping with forum rules, let's not  take this discussion anywhere near religion.)




Yeah, you're right. Going back to the _saner _topic...



So you claim you want to disassociate yourself and your personal views from these guys despite like eleven pages of trying to redefine rape:



Hunter99 said:


> I don't see how this should be scary since I do  not advocate this sort of thing in real life.




And yet you're fine with putting this as your status:



> Hunter99 _     is a Knight of the Scarlet Woman_



_*Do you even know what a vagina looks like?*_


----------



## Mathew_Freeman

Hunter99 said:


> The order regularly kidnaps beautiful women who would otherwise have been caged in the prison of chastity. The women are educated (and brainwashed if necessary) and trained to become scarlet women. They have all the rights and privileges of members of the order except for the following restrictions:
> A. They cannot leave the order.
> B. They can choose their sexual partners but they cannot choose to be chaste.
> Most of these young women choose to stay in the order and those who are recalcitrant are enchanted by various charm spells into cooperating. They are not forced to have sex with someone they do not want to and they are not physically abused. Only non-coercive enchantment spells are used.
> 
> What do you think?




I think this sounds like one of the most horrificly unpleasant ideas I've ever heard, to be quite honest with you.

Kidnap, brainwashing, enchantment spells - it's not a surprise that "most of these young women choose to stay in the order". The ones that aren't are forced to do so!

Capital E Evil, I cannot think of a single character that I've ever played that would not seek to kill this Order in it's entireity.

If I was playing in a game and the GM brought this out I'd have a discussion first, but it's likely that I'd walk out.


----------



## ExploderWizard

Hunter99 said:


> I did not say that all the women are brainwashed, only those who are recalcitrant.




Dude, when you finally do start living life away from your computer please get some help before trying to talk to a real girl. 



Ettin said:


> _*Do you even know what a vagina looks like?*_




I think this is a pretty good indication of an answer......




Hunter99 said:


> I play online so I do not whether the persons I play with are male or female.​


----------



## Umbran

Hunter99 said:


> What do you think?





I think this thread is going nowhere useful, and that it will cause more ill-will than it will generate value.  So, it is now closed.

-----------------------------


*Mod Note*: Ladies and Gentlemen, we'd not had threads like this in the past, so we never needed a policy to handle them.  In the wake of this, we've discussed and implemented a new policy, to make our position on the matter clear.  ~Umbran, EN World Moderator

http://www.enworld.org/forum/meta/3...g-molestation-rape-other-such-discussion.html


----------

