# D&D General A old roleplaying magazine had ideas for either buying or earning a title. Why not allow a character that earns a title to pay to upgrade it?



## JMISBEST

I've been thinking. Back in the 80's A roleplaying magazine had ideas for either buying or earning a title. Why not allow a character that earns a title to pay to upgrade his title to a higher 1?. See below for a example

If A very Rich Male Pc saves A Princess and is rewarded by being made A Fairly Senior Baron who rules A Fairly Large Barony what's to stop him using roughly 60% of his fortune to upgrade his title to Senior Baron and use most of the rest to upgrade his domain into A Large Barony?


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## Morrus

Nothing stops him.


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## Dioltach

If I remember correctly, one of the Counts of Normandy, back when they were being sneered at by the rest of the French nobility for being barbarous Northmen, just decided to call himself Duke. And he had enough clout to make it stick.

So what I'm saying is, noble titles have always been fairly fluid.


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## ilgatto

JMISBEST said:


> I've been thinking. Back in the 80's A roleplaying magazine had ideas for either buying or earning a title. Why not allow a character that earns a title to pay to upgrade his title to a higher 1?. See below for a example
> 
> If A very Rich Male Pc saves A Princess and is rewarded by being made A Fairly Senior Baron who rules A Fairly Large Barony what's to stop him using roughly 60% of his fortune to upgrade his title to Senior Baron and use most of the rest to upgrade his domain into A Large Barony?






Dioltach said:


> If I remember correctly, one of the Counts of Normandy, back when they were being sneered at by the rest of the French nobility for being barbarous Northmen, just decided to call himself Duke. And he had enough clout to make it stick.
> 
> So what I'm saying is, noble titles have always been fairly fluid.



Supposing that a "fairly senior baron" and a "senior baron" are a thing, and not an indication of age, I guess that just leaves the question of whether his neighbors will allow him to upgrade his domain to a larger barony.


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## Umbran

JMISBEST said:


> If A very Rich Male Pc




And, you know, if the PC is female, just too bad?

If you are running titles as merely part of an economic system, what you suggest is fine.

If, by getting a title, the PC is entering a politics role playing game, just paying money shouldn't cut it, any more than by just laying out cash, the dungeon of the Namless Necromancer can be vanquished.


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## ilgatto

Umbran said:


> And, you know, if the PC is female, just too bad?


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## JMISBEST

Umbran said:


> And, you know, if the PC is female, just too bad?
> 
> If you are running titles as merely part of an economic system, what you suggest is fine.
> 
> If, by getting a title, the PC is entering a politics role playing game, just paying money shouldn't cut it, any more than by just laying out cash, the dungeon of the Namless Necromancer can be vanquished.



Nothing against female Pcs I decided to pick a gender at random and I picked male


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## jmartkdr2

Technically a baroness could become a countess by just up and buying more land, if someone was willing to sell. (Unlikely in those parts of history when titles meant more than just land ownership.)

On the other hand, selling titles not attached to land as a way for the crown to get some cash has historical precedent (baronettes).

On the third hand, joining a war to get some more land from foreign places and thus upgrading your title was a very common activity back in the day.

So cash for land for title was technically an option just never a popular one.


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## Dioltach

jmartkdr2 said:


> So cash for land for title was technically an option just never a popular one.



The more popular route, I believe, was to find a lawless area and loot and plunder it until the local authorities decided that the easiest solution was to grant you the legitimacy of a title, and then tax you.


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## Snarf Zagyg

Dioltach said:


> If I remember correctly, one of the Counts of Normandy, back when they were being sneered at by the rest of the French nobility for being barbarous Northmen, just decided to call himself Duke. And he had enough clout to make it stick.
> 
> So what I'm saying is, noble titles have always been fairly fluid.




Well, yeah!







Sometimes, you don't buy the title. You EARN the title.


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## FrozenNorth

JMISBEST said:


> If A very Rich Male Pc saves A Princess and is rewarded by being made A Fairly Senior Baron who rules A Fairly Large Barony what's to stop him using roughly 60% of his fortune to upgrade his title to Senior Baron and use most of the rest to upgrade his domain into A Large Barony?



The villain stops him.  Mwah-ha-ha!


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## ilgatto

Morrus said:


> Nothing stops him.



Won't it?

Wasn't it Herark the Harbinger who once said that, to deal with messages such as this, we should make it declare its obverse?

So 'Nothing stops him' would become 'Something does not stop him', and, again, 'Nothing does stop him.'

Therefore, what is the 'Nothing' that stops him? What or where is 'Nothing'?


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## Ancalagon

If someone is granted a title and land... Where does this land come from?


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## Clint_L

The obvious answer to OP is that it is up to the DM and whatever makes sense in that game world. But I take it that they want to retain some sort of fidelity to a quasi-medieval setting, so I suppose the best course of action would be to do a bit of research on the specific medieval milieu that best reflects their game setting. I know that the old AD&D rules addressed lands, titles and such to a limited degree, but that aspect of the game never interested me much so I don't recall it well. I suspect that there are also some 3PP that focus more on that style of gameplay, so perhaps those could provide some guidance?


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## EzekielRaiden

As a general rule, under the vassalage-and-manorialism system (which is often referred to simply as "feudalism," even though that's only the vassalage part), you couldn't just pay extra money and suddenly have a better title. I won't, at all, pretend like that _never_ happened in European history because if I do, I am 110% certain to get at least two people "um akshully"-ing me about it. But as a general rule, the whole point of these titles was fealty and establishing a baseline of legitimacy; being able to simply pay some money and suddenly you're now a duke isn't really compatible with that. (Likewise, the story above of the guy who became duke by fiat declaration--such things were rare because few people had the clout to make such a play, and fewer still had the clout and _military power_ to pull it off.)

That said, a sizable contribution to one's liege lord is a good way to persuade them to _create_ a new title for you--the trick is to make sure the rest of the aristocracy accepts it, and that you get concomitant benefits for it. Being named Duke of Nowheresville, population -12, net income three feathers and one pretty shell, vassals including the birds from which the feathers fell? Not particularly useful, and indeed bordering on a slap in the face. As a general rule, being a Baron means you're the vassal of either an intermediate ruler (e.g. a Count(ess)/Earl, Viscount(ess), or possibly Prince(ss)), or of the top-level ruler for your country (generally, some form of Duchess/Duke or King/Queen.) So if you're paying money to get a "promotion," you're either bypassing the person you report to and currying favor with _their boss_ (a great way to make an enemy, even if you succeed), or you're basically saying that the big boss of all your fellow "employees" should give you special favors because you bribed them.

Note, again, this doesn't mean it _can't_ work. It just begs the question: why doesn't everyone do this? There are lots of potential answers, some of them favorable, some unfavorable. Many of them don't really make sense unless you just don't care about suspension of disbelief, e.g. "nobody ever thought to do it before!" is a bit of a hard sell in a kingdom with more than a century or two of history, so you need to consider carefully how to proceed. Possible options include (but are not limited to):

It just doesn't work that way in this feudal structure, sorry!
Such promotions are considered unseemly, and will result in social ostracism (though there may be other ways to deal with that, too)
People have already taken advantage of this--a lot. There are no existing titles to be promoted into, because other families have already bought their way to the best titles available.
A bought title is empty--it confers no real power or authority, the buyer is expected to turn it into something useful on their own.
A bought title is always at the frontier, with the expectation that the buyer will transform it into a loyal, productive, _taxable_ plot of land.
Buying a new title is a lengthy and difficult process and not everyone qualifies.
You can only buy a better title once you have done a service to the Crown. Higher titles require both more money _and_ a more significant service rendered.
You have to gain recognition from some other thing in order to buy a title. E.g. you must serve in the army and achieve a certain rank, or you must gain a diploma from the royal university and publish a productive scientific work, or you must create a corporation that employs a certain number of people in the Capital, etc.
Most of these limitations come in the form of "you must complete X difficult task first," "you must work to make the title actually matter," or "there are hidden costs to doing this that must also be dealt with."



ilgatto said:


> Won't it?
> 
> Wasn't it Herark the Harbinger who once said that, to deal with messages such as this, we should make it declare its obverse?
> 
> So 'Nothing stops him' would become 'Something does not stop him', and, again, 'Nothing does stop him.'
> 
> Therefore, what is the 'Nothing' that stops him? What or where is 'Nothing'?



What does this even mean?


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## JMISBEST

You said that you must serve in the army and achieve a certain rank and that got me thinking about something that's very similiar  that was mentioned in the article about buying or earning a title

The very similiar thing that was mentioned in the same article is that in a some countries rather then get a pension someone that's either A Admiral or A General that lives long enough to retire is given A Domain that's nearly always A Barony and when its not its A Viscountom and given A Title that's nearly always Baron and when its not the title's of Viscount

Personally I think that the idea that A General or Admiral could be made A Viscount and given A Viscountdom is preposterous, should almost never happen and when it does it should only happen to someone that's of Noble Birth but doesn't have a title


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## EzekielRaiden

JMISBEST said:


> Personally I think that the idea that A General or Admiral could be made A Viscount and given A Viscountdom is preposterous, should almost never happen and when it does it should only happen to someone that's of Noble Birth but doesn't have a title



You seem to be of the belief that someone who became an admiral or general _wouldn't already be from a noble family._

The idea of meritocratic promotion took a long, long, _long_ time to take root and fully establish itself as the way to do things. It wasn't until the 17th and 18th centuries that you started seeing European nations truly embracing widespread meritocratic promotion in the armed forces and civil services. During the high middle ages, meritocratic promotion was by far the exception, not the rule. Hence, if someone is the general of an army...it's probably because they either come from a noble house, or have been appointed to a noble house.


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## JMISBEST

EzekielRaiden said:


> You seem to be of the belief that someone who became an admiral or general _wouldn't already be from a noble family._
> 
> The idea of meritocratic promotion took a long, long, _long_ time to take root and fully establish itself as the way to do things. It wasn't until the 17th and 18th centuries that you started seeing European nations truly embracing widespread meritocratic promotion in the armed forces and civil services. During the high middle ages, meritocratic promotion was by far the exception, not the rule. Hence, if someone is the general of an army...it'rs probably because they either come from a noble house, or have been appointed to a noble house.



Don't forget that the article said that most Admirals and Generals are given A Title and A Domain upon retiring it didn't say that they aren't nobility and in my opinion in a lot of countries theirs a very high chance that they are nobility

That means that its possible that they are from A Noble Family but they have no chance of inheriting the families land or lands and title or titles and that they joined the army or navy in the hope of earning A Title and A Domain


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## GuyBoy

JMISBEST said:


> Don't forget that the article said that most Admirals and Generals are given A Title and A Domain upon retiring it didn't say that they aren't nobility and in my opinion in a lot of countries theirs a very high chance that they are nobility
> 
> That means that its possible that they are from A Noble Family but they have no chance of inheriting the families land or lands and title or titles and that they joined the army or navy in the hope of earning A Title and A Domain



You appear very interested in how medieval power-building took place, in order to transfer to D&D.
I’d suggest you research this using historical sources and would recommend starting with the careers of the following, all of whom did it successfully (though not always with happy endings):
William Marshal
Richard Neville
Odo of Bayeux
Robert Guiscard

There are many others but this should get you started.


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## Dioltach

GuyBoy said:


> Robert Guiscard



And his brother Roger.


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## haakon1

Dioltach said:


> The more popular route, I believe, was to find a lawless area and loot and plunder it until the local authorities decided that the easiest solution was to grant you the legitimacy of a title, and then tax you.



That happened in my campaign.  Well, the bandit leader turned warlord got a knighthood.  A PC party did the go-between negotiations.  It’s how I ran the Harn adventure “Trobridge Inn”.

Off topic a bit, I love the medievalism of Harn - a non-D&D medieval fantasy RPG.

For off topic, my wife and I just discovered “Last Kingdom” this weekend - solidly medieval feel built adjacent to real history. It’s a TV series from 2015 to the present about the period c. 869 AD in England - we just saw the episode where the Vikings killed King Edmund (later St. Edmund) and ended the Kingdom of East Anglia.

Anyhow, if all these title and marriage questions are not rhetorical, the history of the period you’re recreating, or the fantasy you’re recreating, will tell if cash for titles is a thing or not.

Some other good sources for medieval feel:

Brother Cadfael novels or TV series (zero fantasy, historical fiction)
The old movie “The Lion in Winter“ (zero fantasy, historical fiction)
Game of Thrones novels and TV series (medium fantasy, sometimes “history informed”)


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## haakon1

Ancalagon said:


> If someone is granted a title and land... Where does this land come from?



And is it land that’s empty?  Land that needs to be reclaimed?  Or land that’s fully stocked with serfs and servants and warriors.

In one of my campaigns (different party from the Trobridge Inn folks, same world), the PC’s succeeded at “The Standing Stones” (3e) adventure and were left with … SPOILERS …




the village of Ossington with 1 actual human resident and around 150 “faux humans and faux halflings“ created from animals using an immobile Druidic artifact.  They were heathens and didn’t have the skills to tend crops or run a village.  The cleric decided to convert them to St. Cuthbert and the party stayed a few months and built a chapel, trying to teach them the skills they’d need to live as humans/halflings.  The party also brought a bunch of refugees there (big war in the background) to teach the faux folks how to farm and so forth, and add to their numbers, while the fighter trained militia, the ranger trained scouts, and so on.

I had already decided the village was outside any kingdom, way out in the Dim Forest of Greyhaw, but when the cleric told the authorities of the church about it, asking for help, the church told the ruler they had served, on the mission that sent them there in the first place.  (They were sent by a bureaucrat dealing with adventurers for the ruler to see why a dwarf hold hadn’t delivered weapons on time during a war. The reason was supply chain disruption at Ossington.)

The ruler declared he added Ossington to his country (Bissel in Greyhawk), with the PC cleric as Baronet holding it for the ruler and the church.

I worked with the player, who came up with a building plan for a tower, as we worked out his income and expenses, and we developed every person there as an NPC.

He got nothing from Bissel and the church sent only 1 acolyte, and owes troops and money to his lord.  He did his own negotiations with local dwarfs, elves, and woodsmen - no free lunch for this title, but it is recognition for service to the realm and a respectable title, and national backing if he truly needs it.  Mostly he’s way out on the frontier and has to make it real.

Ossington’s ownership is disputed by two other countries, and there was a threat from a goblin army (being dealt with by the lower level party that did the Harn scenario).

That’s how you get to be a baronet in my game - make it happen by service to the realm, and fight to make it stick.

And btw the cleric/Baronet is celibate.  No worries about the opinions of princesses’ dads.


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## haakon1

JMISBEST said:


> Don't forget that the article said



What article?

Oh, it just occurred to me - you might LOVE the Xbox game “Pathfinder: Kingmaker”.  You start as a level 1 D&D character (well, PF character but super close) and in the game you CAN BECOME A BARON.

And you can expand your barony.  And I believe you can marry.

The game is also on PC, I think, and perhaps other platforms.  It’s like 4 years old, but should still be available.


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