# Sorcerer Spells Known Feat: Overpowered?



## Ogrork the Mighty (Jan 14, 2009)

There's a feat from a third party book that enables a sorcerer to add a number of known spells to his list equal to the bonus spells for Charisma.

In other words, just like earning bonus spells per day due to high Charisma, the sorcerer also gets bonus known spells of the same bonus.

The only requirement is being dragon blooded.

Is this overpowered?

The only reference point I could find was the Extra Spell feat (_Complete Arcane_) that gives you a grand total of one bonus spell to add to your known spell list.


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## frankthedm (Jan 14, 2009)

Sound ridiculously overpowered, but _some_ folks feel sorcerers overpay for being spontaneous casters.

Also, does not the wotc feat require that the one extra spell be *two spell levels *_lower_ than the highest spell level the sorcerer could cast?


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## pawsplay (Jan 14, 2009)

Extra Spell, an official feat, allows you to learn one spell one level lower than the highest level you can cast.

This feat sounds like a nice deal at first, but it occured to me, you may not have bonus spells in your highest level slots. So it might be balanced, sort of. However, it bothers me for another reason... what happens if you get a Cha enhancement?


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## EroGaki (Jan 14, 2009)

frankthedm said:


> Sound ridiculously overpowered, but _some_ folks feel sorcerers overpay for being spontaneous casters.
> 
> Also, does not the wotc feat require that the one extra spell be *two spell levels *_lower_ than the highest spell level the sorcerer could cast?




I am one of those people. I've never understood why the designers of the game feel spontaneous casting is worth: getting access to spells a level later than the other primary casters, having to spend a full round action to use metamagic, getting no class features beyond a familiar (which many people consider more trouble than they are worth), and having a painfully small list of spells known. And let's not forget that said designers also continue to nerf the poor sorcerer be dividing up many of the multifunction spells into seperate spells. 

Now, don't get me wrong, I think spontaneous casting is a neat and useful ability, but it's not _that _good. Having to prepare spells ahead of time can suck, but it is not that big of an issue. Wizards and clerics have been doing it for years.

I think that such a feat is a great way to bring some love back to the poor, neglected sorcerer. In fact, I'd say that all sorcerers should get it as a bonus feat. Where is this feat listed, might I ask?


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## Shin Okada (Jan 14, 2009)

Well, when 3.0e was first released, I though Sorcerer is underpowered. But after actually running several campaigns with both Sorcerer and Wizard (and other casters) in parties, my current conclusion is "Sorcerer is strong, and Wizard is not so versatile in 3.xe".

Sorcerer can strengthen their limited spells known with metamagic spells. Heighten Spell and Empower Spell is useful enough. You would better not concentrate on nuking up opponents (that is for Warmages). Instead, take at least one each of "Save or Die (or nearly neutralized) spells for each of 3 save types. Then use Heighten Spell feat whenever possible. Now your Sorcerer do not need that many spells known to be a very effective controller. Also, Sorcerer can cast really a lot of Dispel Magic (or greater version and such) when needed.

On the other hand, with limited number of spells per day and with cost and time requirement for writing spells on their book, wizard is no so versatile comparing to a sorcerer. Especially when you are playing a mega-dungeon type big module or a campaign with some kind of time limit (like RHoD).

When I was playing Chromatic D&D or A&D, my wizards often have almost all the spells in the game in their spell book. There were plentiful of wizard foes and it was so easy to copy spells from those robbed spellbooks. But 3.Xe is much different in this matter.

Also, unless you know your opponents you will fight when preparing spells, many of a wizard's spell slots tend to become "useless". So many creatures are completely immune or highly resistant to certain spells.

For this 9 years, I have seen many wizards spending their rounds for "Using a wand of Magic Missile", while many sorcerers are using their own spell slots for something better than shooting 5 magic missiles.


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## Thanee (Jan 14, 2009)

Sorcerers are weak at lower levels, but once you get to higher levels (12th+ or so), they are a good deal more powerful than Wizards, in my experience, and a lot more fun to play as well, again, in my opinion, of course, especially now with so many options for spontaneous casters, that were not available with the core rules yet.

Spontaneous casting is _that_ good (at least once you reach "critical mass" with your spells known).


And yeah, that feat is _completely_ broken.

Bye
Thanee


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## Runestar (Jan 14, 2009)

> On the other hand, with limited number of spells per day and with cost and time requirement for writing spells on their book, wizard is no so versatile comparing to a sorcerer. Especially when you are playing a mega-dungeon type big module or a campaign with some kind of time limit (like RHoD).




This I agree. With so few spell slots, there is really little point knowing every single spell in the game, when you can only prepare so few at any one time. That is why I prefer the focused specialist variant. I have found that I would gladly give up 3 schools of magic for extra spell slots. And interestingly enough, this makes the wizard more akin to a sorcerer.


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## Corsair (Jan 14, 2009)

Runestar said:


> This I agree. With so few spell slots, there is really little point knowing every single spell in the game, when you can only prepare so few at any one time. That is why I prefer the focused specialist variant. I have found that I would gladly give up 3 schools of magic for extra spell slots. And interestingly enough, this makes the wizard more akin to a sorcerer.




By "akin to" I assume you mean "almost in all ways superior".


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## Shin Okada (Jan 15, 2009)

Onto the main topic.

I am not sure if that feat is overpowered. It will be much powerful than most of the already existing WotC feats which adds more spells known to the sorcerer. Namely, Extra Spell.

But IMHO Extra Spell is very weak as a feat. And non of my players in my play group ever took it. It seems not worth spending a feat slot, especially after the introduction of Runestaff (MIC). Also, that feat does not allow a Sorcerer to learn spells which he cannot usually learn, like Arcane Disciple feat or Domain Access alternative class feature do.

Still, IMHO, Sorcerers need no more powering up. The class is already very powerful and versatile if the player chooses right spells and right feats. Also, using CHA bonus for determining Spells Known may cause some ruling issues. Because CHA bonus changes temporally by using spells & items, or by taking ability damages/drains.


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## Ogrork the Mighty (Jan 15, 2009)

EroGaki said:


> Where is this feat listed, might I ask?




It's called Enhanced Dragon Blood but I don't know the source.


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## pawsplay (Jan 15, 2009)

It appears to me that such a feat would be way sickeningly overpowered at 1st through 6th levels, then merely very overpowered at 7th through 10th levels. After that, your Cha bonus may not keep up with your spell levels, at which point it will be merely overpowered compared to a Draconic Heritage feat, Extra Spell, Arcane Disciple, and the like.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Jan 15, 2009)

Shin Okada said:


> Onto the main topic.
> 
> I am not sure if that feat is overpowered. It will be much powerful than most of the already existing WotC feats which adds more spells known to the sorcerer. Namely, Extra Spell.
> 
> ...




A better comparison would be with the boodline feats from dragon magazine which: give +1 spell known for levels 1-9, all of them specific and set in stone; require at least a bit of RP restriction; require a familiar, thus keeping you from swapping it for something better like Metamagic Specialist (or spending a feat to get it back); have mechanical drawbacks from the selection in spells you can never learn; and seem to be a pretty good deal for a sorcerer despite the downsides.

So yeah, this 3rd party feat sounds super-duper broken.


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## Thanee (Jan 15, 2009)

Corsair said:


> By "akin to" I assume you mean "almost in all ways superior".




No, he means that he casts more spells and those are more often the same spells. 

Bye
Thanee


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