# Dimension Door to escape a grapple?



## NewJeffCT (Apr 22, 2009)

The party is going to be facing a size Large opponent to start the next session - the opponent will possibly attempt to grapple the group's halfling psion. I assume this will be almost no problem due to the creature's 30 Strength, Large size and +16 BAB and the halfling's small size, 6 Strength and the psion's poor BAB.

The psion (level 12) has a great Concentration score and an 18 Con to boot.  So, with 16 ranks in Concentration, +4 for his Con bonus and +4 for Combat Manifestation, he should have no problems making a DC:24 Concentration check (DC:20 +4 for it being a 4th level power) since the psionic Dimension Door only requires a Visual component.

My question is - if the halfling is being grappled, _Any spell that requires precise and careful action is impossible to cast while grappling or being pinned_ Is spotting the location to Dimension Door to considered a precise & careful action?  I would assume the halfling is being buffeted about while being grappled?  And, if he is able to manifest his Dimension Door, does the grappler go with him (pending saving throw, of course) - and, if the creature goes willingly, figuring it could polish off the halfling with no problem, can it go willingly?


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## frankthedm (Apr 22, 2009)

> Dimension Door to escape a grapple?



Yes.


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## dingle (Apr 22, 2009)

I would say he could get away. He only needs to glimpse a free space and say "100 ft  over in that direction." Or he could just remember what the entrance looked like and go there. If the large sized person could go willingly with him I'm not so sure, the next does say "you may bring another creature with you" which does seem to suggest that its optional, for the caster to decide.


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## NewJeffCT (Apr 22, 2009)

dingle said:


> I would say he could get away. He only needs to glimpse a free space and say "100 ft  over in that direction." Or he could just remember what the entrance looked like and go there. If the large sized person could go willingly with him I'm not so sure, the next does say "you may bring another creature with you" which does seem to suggest that its optional, for the caster to decide.




I figured as much, but just wanted to be sure he has a way out.


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## Jeff Wilder (Apr 22, 2009)

You could create a little bit of fun by having the player turn away from the battlemat and just give a direction and distance.  As a player, I'd find that amusing.


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## NewJeffCT (Apr 22, 2009)

Jeff Wilder said:


> You could create a little bit of fun by having the player turn away from the battlemat and just give a direction and distance.  As a player, I'd find that amusing.




I think you're being sarcastic when you say amusing, but you can never tell on the internets.

I was thinking of using my Warhammer scatter die for when he points and says, "100 feet thataway" - with him wiggling around and all, it could be just about any direction, including maybe a 15-20% chance of being dunked in a river.  But, with his 20 INT, I would guess he most likely would end up where he wanted.


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## Jeff Wilder (Apr 22, 2009)

NewJeffCT said:


> I think you're being sarcastic when you say amusing, but you can never tell on the internets.



It was poor sentence construction on my part.  I was being literal -- i.e., I would honestly enjoy it -- but somehow "amuse" has gotten a mildly negative connotation on the Internet, and I didn't take that into account.  Sorry about that.


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## pawsplay (Apr 22, 2009)

Escaping from a grapple is one of the classic uses of d-door.


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## Eldritch_Lord (Apr 23, 2009)

NewJeffCT said:


> _Any spell that requires precise and careful action is impossible to cast while grappling or being pinned_ Is spotting the location to Dimension Door to considered a precise & careful action?  I would assume the halfling is being buffeted about while being grappled?  And, if he is able to manifest his Dimension Door, does the grappler go with him (pending saving throw, of course) - and, if the creature goes willingly, figuring it could polish off the halfling with no problem, can it go willingly?




"Precise and careful action" essentially means spells with somatic components; powers aren't affected at all in that regard.  Dimension Door is self only, so the grappler would not come along.


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## Vegepygmy (Apr 23, 2009)

Eldritch_Lord said:


> Dimension Door is self only, so the grappler would not come along.



"You may also bring one additional willing Medium or smaller creature (carrying gear or objects up to its maximum load) or its equivalent per three caster levels. A Large creature counts as two Medium creatures, a Huge creature counts as two Large creatures, and so forth. All creatures to be transported must be in contact with one another, and at least one of those creatures must be in contact with you."

But the caster must _choose_ to take the other creature(s) with him, and the creature(s) must be _willing_ to go.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Apr 23, 2009)

As everyone's said, D-Door lets you escape a grapple.  IME, that's what it's used for ~90% of the time.



Vegepygmy said:


> But the caster must _choose_ to take the other creature(s) with him, and the creature(s) must be _willing_ to go.




As a side-note, back when I was trying to re-make the grappling prestige class from complete warrior (name currently escapes me), one of the class features was the ability to forcibly hold on (after a difficult grapple check) and count as part of the enemy caster's gear if he tried to teleport / plane shift / etc... out of a grapple with you, causing it to fail if that would make the spell fail.  It'd be cool to have such an ability somewhere in the game.  then you'd have casters putting up fire res just to shift to the plane of fire and make the grappler pay for hanging on...ah, hilarious!


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## ScionJustice (Apr 23, 2009)

NewJeffCT said:


> So, with 16 ranks in Concentration, +4 for his Con bonus and +4 for Combat Manifestation, he should have no problems making a DC:24 Concentration check (DC:20 +4 for it being a 4th level power) since the psionic Dimension Door only requires a Visual component.




?????


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## Drowbane (Apr 23, 2009)

I'll join the chorus here... escaping a grapple is probably D-Door's primary function.

I had a Psion 8 with a ring of feather-fall who would "HALO-drop-bombard" enemy camps.  D-door to max height over camp... fall 60ft (featherfall), blast for a couple of rounds and re-D-door up as needed. hehe, just thought I'd share


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## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 23, 2009)

Vegepygmy said:


> "You may also bring one additional willing Medium or smaller creature (carrying gear or objects up to its maximum load) or its equivalent per three caster levels. A Large creature counts as two Medium creatures, a Huge creature counts as two Large creatures, and so forth. All creatures to be transported must be in contact with one another, and at least one of those creatures must be in contact with you."
> 
> But the caster must _choose_ to take the other creature(s) with him, and the creature(s) must be _willing_ to go.




Which could be interesting if the grappler is "willing" because he doesn't want the caster to escape...but the caster DDs to somewhere not in the grappler's best interest, contrary to the grappler's intuition.

Like underwater (if the caster can breathe water), into a fire (if the caster has fire resistance), etc.


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## Ydars (Apr 23, 2009)

Oh but benign transposition is SO much more fun to use to escape a grapple or engulf when you are high level because the party mage is doing the casting, not the person grappled: mages, use your pesky summon undead I spell to bring in a zombie or something useless and the moment someone gets grappled, switch the summoned monster in and the gelatinous cube gets no lunch. Ha Ha!


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## AbyssKnight (Apr 23, 2009)

ScionJustice, the word component here has a totally different meaning than it does with spell casting. In this case it means when the psion manifests the power he is momentarily covered with a thin film of ectoplasm (so anyone who is watching has a visual clue that the psion manifested a power).

Remember that psionics don't need any hand waving, speaking, or props to work. So visual (or auditory or mental) clues are all that let you know someone is manifesting a power.


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## Eldritch_Lord (Apr 23, 2009)

Vegepygmy said:


> "You may also bring one additional willing Medium or smaller creature (carrying gear or objects up to its maximum load) or its equivalent per three caster levels. A Large creature counts as two Medium creatures, a Huge creature counts as two Large creatures, and so forth. All creatures to be transported must be in contact with one another, and at least one of those creatures must be in contact with you."




   Whoops.  I guess I meant that in the sense that you have to choose to bring someone along, rather than it being automatic.  Either way, the somatic component thing holds.


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## irdeggman (Apr 23, 2009)

AbyssKnight said:


> ScionJustice, the word component here has a totally different meaning than it does with spell casting. In this case it means when the psion manifests the power he is momentarily covered with a thin film of ectoplasm (so anyone who is watching has a visual clue that the psion manifested a power).
> 
> Remember that psionics don't need any hand waving, speaking, or props to work. So visual (or auditory or mental) clues are all that let you know someone is manifesting a power.




And that is the reason that psionics uses the word "display" to describe this and not the word "component" which has an entirely different meaning.


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## risner (Apr 27, 2009)

NewJeffCT said:


> he should have no problems making a DC:24 Concentration check (DC:20 +4 for it being a 4th level power) since the psionic Dimension Door only requires a Visual component




DD requires Verbal, you need to be able to speak.  Unless Psionics (which I've never used) is very different, the V doesn't mean visual but rather verbal.

DD will not release a pinned grappled NPC/PC (because pinned = not able to speak)

The Concentration is only required for Somatic and then only if you have the material components in hand already.


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## Vegepygmy (Apr 27, 2009)

risner said:


> The Concentration is only required for Somatic...



Nope. You cannot cast spells with a somatic component *at all* while grappling:

*Cast a Spell:* You can attempt to cast a spell while grappling...provided its casting time is no more than 1 standard action, it has no somatic component, and you have in hand any material components or focuses you might need.

The Concentration check is for *any* spell that can be cast while grappling (which excludes those that have a somatic component):

If the spell is one that can be cast while grappling, you must make a Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level) or lose the spell. (PHB, page 156)


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## irdeggman (Apr 27, 2009)

risner said:


> DD requires Verbal, you need to be able to speak.  Unless Psionics (which I've never used) is very different, the V doesn't mean visual but rather verbal.




Yes they are substantially different.

Psionics require "no need for messy material components, verbal clues, or awkward gestures." Thus no ASF.



> DISPLAY
> When a power is manifested, a display may accompany the primary effect. This secondary effect may be auditory, material, mental, olfactory, or visual. No power’s display is significant enough to create consequences for the psionic creatures, allies, or opponents during combat. The secondary effect for a power occurs only if the power’s description indicates it. If multiple powers with similar displays are in effect simultaneously, the displays do not necessary become more intense. Instead, the overall display remains much the same, though with minute spikes in intensity. A Psicraft check (DC 10 + 1 per additional power in use) reveals the exact number of simultaneous powers in play.
> 
> Dispense with Displays: Despite the fact that almost every power has a display, a psionic character can always choose to manifest the power without the flashy accompaniment. To manifest a power without any display (no matter how many displays it might have), a manifester must make a Concentration check (DC 15 + the level of the power). This check is part of the action of manifesting the power. If the check is unsuccessful, the power manifests normally with its display.
> ...


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## Jeff Wilder (Apr 28, 2009)

risner said:


> DD will not release a pinned grappled NPC/PC (because pinned = not able to speak)



Just to be nitpicky, being able to speak is at the option of the person doing the pinning ... so it's not an automatic result of being pinned.

Damn, James.  Three paragraphs and three bits of wrong info!  You're slipping, young man.


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## risner (Apr 28, 2009)

Jeff Wilder said:


> Just to be nitpicky, being able to speak is at the option of the person doing the pinning ... so it's not an automatic result of being pinned.




True, I guess I was going from the point of view that if I had someone (a caster) pinned, I probably would wish they couldn't cast.  As a result I'd prevent them from doing so.

But on the Internet, omission is dangerous as it leads to confusion.  ;-)


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## NewJeffCT (Apr 28, 2009)

risner said:


> True, I guess I was going from the point of view that if I had someone (a caster) pinned, I probably would wish they couldn't cast.  As a result I'd prevent them from doing so.
> 
> But on the Internet, omission is dangerous as it leads to confusion.  ;-)




Being able to speak is not necessary for manifesting the DD power, however.  However, since it is a size Large creature (a 10' tall and 20' long, 4,000 pound marilith) grappling a size Small (3'6" tall, 45 pounds) halfling, it could conceivably completely wrap up the psion, covering him from head to toe so he cannot see a darn thing.

Of course, he could just manifest DD and say, "50 feet left" or similar, and then I could break out my Warhammer scatter die, or just use d8 to determine direction, with 8 being 50 feet up (assuming the demon twists him around a bit and he cannot tell up from down.)


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## StreamOfTheSky (Apr 28, 2009)

NewJeffCT said:


> However, since it is a size Large creature (a 10' tall and 20' long, 4,000 pound marilith) grappling a size Small (3'6" tall, 45 pounds) halfling, it could conceivably completely wrap up the psion, covering him from head to toe so he cannot see a darn thing.




You're assuming an awful lot there, and I strongly disagree.


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## Hawking (May 13, 2009)

Here's the breakdown of the situation.

*Large thing's turn:* Large thing grapples halfling psion. Touch hits, grapples are rolled, large thing wins. Halfling is now grappled. If the large thing has a base attack of +6 or higher, it can choose to pin him as a second attack, a grapple check with a -5 penalty. If he does, another grapple check is rolled by both participants.

*Halfling's turn:* Halfling manifests psionic dimension door, and visualizes an area that can be described (and hereby labeled as) "over there". He needs to roll a Concentration check, DC 20. The check is necessary whether or not the display exists (a seperate check), and a seperate check is necessary to manifest defensively, say, to avoid AoOs from threatening enemies. There is no AoO from the large thing, he does not threaten squares. He does not need line of sight to "over there", nor can the large thing do anything to prevent this, outside of a readied action. He rolls the Concentration check and succeeds. He has full choice of whether to bring the large thing or not, assuming he's capable, and the large things has full choice of whether or not he goes as well. If both parties are willing, both are teleported; if not, the halfling teleports alone to "over there".

If the halfling is pinned, all of the above still applies. If the Concentration check fails, the power fails. 

The End.


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## StreamOfTheSky (May 13, 2009)

Basically.  Only part of that sequence I might disagree with is the second attack at -5 to get a pin the same round.  If Large Thing was using a natural attacks sequence, he does not get iterative attacks for high BAB, and can't "trade" one of his remaining natural attacks to try to pin.  That's assuming that Large Thing is using natural attack routine, otherwise, well done summarizing.

Oh, and maybe it's different for psionics, but for spells I think the concentration DC is 20 + spell level, so more like 24 than 20.


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## Particle_Man (May 13, 2009)

Vegepygmy said:


> Nope. You cannot cast spells with a somatic component *at all* while grappling:
> 
> *Cast a Spell:* You can attempt to cast a spell while grappling...provided its casting time is no more than 1 standard action, it has no somatic component, and you have in hand any material components or focuses you might need.




One of the reasons why the warlock's "flee the scene" is not so good as dimension door; unless one takes "Sudden Still" as a feat, *all* warlock invocations have somatic components.  And barring a house rule there is no "Still Spell-like Ability" feat AFAIK, because most non-warlock spell-like abilities don't have somatic components in the first place.


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## NewJeffCT (May 13, 2009)

Particle_Man said:


> One of the reasons why the warlock's "flee the scene" is not so good as dimension door; unless one takes "Sudden Still" as a feat, *all* warlock invocations have somatic components.  And barring a house rule there is no "Still Spell-like Ability" feat AFAIK, because most non-warlock spell-like abilities don't have somatic components in the first place.




I think 3.5 warlocks are kind of underpowered anyhow, at least for my style of campaign that tends to be built around 1 big encounter per session instead of several smaller encounters.

but, that is another topic.  

the grapple session already happened and there was no DD needed.


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