# Summoner wizards..do they suck or is what I have heard wrong?



## Takhisis (Sep 24, 2010)

I've always wanted to play a 4e necromancer yet it's difficult to find anybody who will allow third party content like Scythe and Cowel by Goodman Games and other takes on the 4e necromancer. People tell me "just refluff X class" but I don't like that for one reason...ability scores. Simply put, I cannot stand being foced to play a wisdom based necromancer. To me, a necromancer's powers should be based on intelligence or charisma. I know that's an anal nitpick on my part, but for me it's a big deal. I want a necromancer who is, actually, you know...smart. Or if int is not an option at least somebody charismatic enough to manipulate people. I just don't like the idea of using a wisdom based necromancer and while it may be a nitpick to most, it's a big deal to me and that's where my big problem, and this thread's main topic come into play.

Invokers, arguably the best summoners are out due to being wis based. Druids and other wis based summoner classes are out. So as far as refluffining goes...that leave me with the wizard. While refluffing a summoner wizard thematically works well for what I want, I have heard rather disparaging things about a summoner wizard's crunch. I've never EVER heard or seen any comment about summoner wizards being good at, well, summoning. I have however heard and seen many comments on them being sup-par at summoning. I've never played a summoning focused 4e wizard, so I have no idea how many of these statements are true. Thus, I posted this thread. Are summoner wizards any good at summoning? Do they suck at summoning? Are they "just meh?" Do they even get enough summons, (Including a level 1 summon) to actually be considered true "summoners?"


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## DoctorNick (Sep 24, 2010)

Summoners are great at paragon and beyond. At heroic they're not really underpowered but you have to be willing to take some dailies that aren't summons (actually grasp of the grave is quite fitting I guess).

Now the encounter powers are kind of weak but none of them create permanent creatures anyway so you can easily take a better power and reflavor it since that's what you're doing anyway.


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## Takhisis (Sep 24, 2010)

But will I be able to have any summons at heroic at all? Is there a good level 1 daily summon? Because a necromancer with no undead is not a necromancer, in all honesty. So if I have to wait until paragon to actually have undead minions I can summon that's not a good thing for my character concept. I guess I would have to refluff non-summon powers into summons or something? Such as making some of those powers which create persisting zones as summoned undead that for one reason or another stay in the same spot?


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## Obryn (Sep 24, 2010)

I don't really know how to help you much here.

At low levels, you will only be able to summon one thing per day - or, probably, 4 encounters.  This is probably way lower than you're looking for, and it's no matter what class you're playing.

With that said, I don't know that a guy who summons hordes of undead is a low-level character concept at all. That seems like a pretty established, mid-level character, you know?  You need to start small with your summoner/necromancer, and work towards this undead hordemaster.  While I always want to work with a player to make a concept become reality (er... "reality"), sometimes it's a matter of, "Gain some experience, and we'll get there."

I think a summmoner Wizard could work fine, though I don't have any in my own game.  Wizards have enough necromantic spells to give you a good necromancy flavor, IMO.

One option you could look into is a hybrid Wizard/Invoker, to give you the widest range of possible summons.  If you pick an Int/Wis race, you could pull 18's in both, and have your pick of angels, demons, and monsters to reskin.

-O


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## Mad Hamish (Sep 24, 2010)

Just call Flaming Sphere a flaming skeleton and you're covered for level 1 dailies...


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## Ahrimon (Sep 24, 2010)

While it would involve heavy tweaking/refluffing, the shaman has a decent always there summon from lvl 1 on.


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## DoctorNick (Sep 24, 2010)

There are decent summons even at level 1. You just won't get a lot of them. Flaming Sphere is fantastic if you are willing to reflavor.


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## Mengu (Sep 24, 2010)

This seemed like a fun exercise. I think with some reflavoring, you can make a fairly effective and fun necromancer.

[sblock]
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Necromancer, level 6
Human, Wizard
Build: Summoner Wizard
Arcane Implement Mastery: Tome of Binding
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Staff)
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Tome)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 17, Dex 12, Int 19, Wis 10, Cha 12.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 16, Dex 12, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 12.


AC: 22 Fort: 18 Reflex: 20 Will: 18
HP: 52 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 13

TRAINED SKILLS
History +14, Arcana +14, Religion +12, Insight +8, Dungeoneering +8

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +4, Bluff +4, Diplomacy +4, Endurance +6, Heal +3, Intimidate +4, Nature +3, Perception +3, Stealth +4, Streetwise +4, Thievery +4, Athletics +2

FEATS
Wizard: Ritual Caster
Human: Arcane Familiar
Level 1: Toughness
Level 2: Versatile Expertise
Level 4: Unarmored Agility
Level 6: Skill Power

POWERS
Bonus At-Will Power: Nightmare Eruption
Skill Power: Eyes of the Deep Delver
Wizard at-will 1: Phantom Bolt
Wizard at-will 1: Winged Horde
Wizard encounter 1: Chill Strike
Wizard daily 1: Summon Dretch
Wizard daily 1 Spellbook: Flaming Sphere
Wizard utility 2: Shield
Wizard utility 2 Spellbook: Daunting Presence
Wizard encounter 3: Shock Beetle Swarm
Wizard daily 5: Summon Imp
Wizard daily 5 Spellbook: Visions of Avarice
Wizard utility 6: Summon Iron Cohort
Wizard utility 6 Spellbook: Spectral Hound

ITEMS
Spellbook, Magic Tome +2, Deathburst Cloth Armor (Basic Clothing) +2, Rhythm Blade Dagger +1, Cloak of Distortion +1
RITUALS
Comrades' Succor, Unseen Servant, Comprehend Language, Corpse Light, Spirit Fetch, Skull Watch, Enchant Magic Item, Clear the Path
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

[/sblock]

Book Imp familiar can be fluffed however you like, maybe a tiny poltergeist.

At-will
Nightmare Eruption - works fine as is
Phantom Bolt - a screaming ghostly skull
Winged Horde - a swarm of (undead?) bats

Encounter
Chill Strike - a ghostly hand appears and touches the target
Shock Beetle Swarm - could be shock scarabs, or maybe undead shocker lizards.

Daily
Summon Dretch - Insubordinate zombie.
Flaming Sphere - Flaming Skull or Flaming Skeleton
Summon Imp - Rotwing Ghast
Visions of Avarice - ghosts of the victim's past draw them in

Utilities
Daunting Presence - you're a necromancer, people should fear you when you want them to.
Summon Iron Cohort - we can call this the meat shield zombie.
Eyes of the Deep Delver - you don't need your eyes to see, you can see through the spirits of the dead.

So even at lower levels, with a good selection of powers, I think it's possible to capture the flavor of the necromancer. Picking the right rituals and a small amount of refluffing, and some DM assistance to get the items that will set the right tone such as the deathburst cloth armor, you're in decent shape conceptually.

Perhaps it's not the most optimized, but with staples like Winged Horde, Flaming Sphere, and Visions of Averice in your arsenal, you're not doing too shabby either. There are of course a number of alternatives to the power selection, such as Grasping Shadows or Grasp of the Grave, and heavier refluffing is always an option.

Also with prestidigitation, mage hand, and ghost sound, you can become more convincing at playing necromancer.


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## ppaladin123 (Sep 24, 2010)

Actually there is an undead familiar called the, "spectre" available at heroic tier too.

For paragon level you might want to multiclass to psion and take the "thrall herd" paragon path since it basically gives you a continuous zombie slave that you can have out at all times.

Also there are a lot of fun rituals to pick up....corpse gate, corpse light, undead servitor, skull watch, undead shroud, etc.

I'd probably go with a hybrid dark pact warlock|wizard, since the dark pact warlocks have a ton of nasty necrotic spells, domination, etc. It really fits the theme.


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## jbear (Sep 24, 2010)

@ Mengu: Nicely done!

It won't let me xp you til I spread xp around.

Ok, let me play.

Lvl 1: Flaming Skull! What a cool idea, can't beat that! ANd yep, Dretch is the other decent summons! What's a Dretch?

Encounter lvl 1 Grasping Shadows totally fights: Shadowy arms rise up from the ground pulling your enemies towards an early grave! And it is also the best at this level imo.

Lvl 2 Utility: Magical Debris: At will summon Casper the Friendly Ghost(s) who is there to hinder your enemies' movements or Shadow Snake which becomes Serpent Wraith which does recon. Both decent utilities.

Lvl 3 Encounter Hypnotic Pattern: This is when Casper starts messing with your enemies' minds, possessing them and having them walk into sharpened furniture!

Lvl 5 : Summon Imp, Grasp of the Grave all seems to fit

Lvl 6 Utility: Summon Iron Cohort (totally agree) and Dispel Magic: You want to be able to send those summoned creatures back to where they came from when they get out of control (and of course other peoples creations and auras ... so handy in many situations!)

Level 7: Tomebound Ooze (renamed Living Guts?) sweet summoning spell right there!

Level 9: Summon Succubus! There's your Vampire Summons right there baby! Dominate ftw! Plus the rest. And Face of Death ... because in the mornings when you've just woken up you are a terrible sight to behold!!!!

Level 10 Utility: Summon Hammerfist Crusher (easily refluffed to Frankenstein's Monster!) or Circle of Protection (even Necromancer's aren't so foolish as to not find ways to protect themselves from the darkness the dabble with!)

Paragon Path looks solid. The ideas others have given about your familiar are great. Featwise ... well easy to refluff White Lotus Feats as Dark Creepy Necro Academy feats. I made this build in about 3 minutes, so i didn't look at anyhing in depth. But the Vistani heritage feat is wicked Imo, totally what a Necromancer would do when he glares at you!

In any case, with essentials, i'd put money on it that the official Necromancer is not far away.



====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Ana2, level 11
Eladrin, Wizard, Bonded Summoner
Arcane Implement Mastery: Tome of Binding
Background: Arcane Student Who Saw Too Much (Arcane Student Who Saw Too Much Benefit)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 9, Con 18, Dex 15, Int 21, Wis 14, Cha 11.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 16, Dex 12, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 10.


AC: 20 Fort: 19 Reflex: 20 Will: 20
HP: 68 Surges: 10 Surge Value: 17

TRAINED SKILLS
Athletics +9, Arcana +17, Dungeoneering +12, Religion +15, History +17

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +7, Bluff +5, Diplomacy +5, Endurance +9, Heal +7, Insight +7, Intimidate +5, Nature +7, Perception +7, Stealth +7, Streetwise +5, Thievery +7

FEATS
Wizard: Ritual Caster
Level 1: Careful Summoner
Level 2: Arcane Familiar
Level 4: Vistani Heritage
Level 6: Armor Proficiency (Leather)
Level 8: White Lotus Riposte
Level 10: White Lotus Enervation
Level 11: White Lotus Master Riposte

POWERS
Wizard at-will 1: Phantom Bolt
Wizard at-will 1: Winged Horde
Wizard encounter 1: Grasping Shadows
Wizard daily 1: Flaming Sphere
Wizard daily 1 Spellbook: Summon Dretch
Wizard utility 2: Mystical Debris
Wizard utility 2 Spellbook: Summon Shadow Serpent
Wizard encounter 3: Hypnotic Pattern
Wizard daily 5: Summon Imp
Wizard daily 5 Spellbook: Grasp of the Grave
Wizard utility 6: Summon Iron Cohort
Wizard utility 6 Spellbook: Dispel Magic
Wizard encounter 7: Tomebound Ooze
Wizard daily 9: Summon Succubus
Wizard daily 9 Spellbook: Face of Death
Wizard utility 10: Summon Hammerfist Crusher
Wizard utility 10 Spellbook: Circle of Protection

ITEMS

RITUALS
Unseen Servant
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======


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## Neonchameleon (Sep 24, 2010)

Finessing:

Storm Pillar.  It's something summoned.

Multiclass to Shaman.  And you have a bound spirit with you.

My current wizard requires more minis than the rest of the party combined (Himself, Familiar, Spirit  Companion, Storm Pillar, Flaming Sphere vs four other PCs).


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## Zaran (Sep 24, 2010)

No offense guys but Flaming Sphere isn't a Summoning.  You can do that with Summon Fire Warrior though.


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## AbdulAlhazred (Sep 24, 2010)

Zaran said:


> No offense guys but Flaming Sphere isn't a Summoning.  You can do that with Summon Fire Warrior though.




No, it isn't a Summon in the technical sense, but really the difference between conjurations and summons is pretty esoteric and from a fluff perspective doesn't really matter much. 

There are tons of other spells that are thematic. Bigby's Icy Grasp becomes a rotting corpse zombie that grabs onto your enemy. Other non-summoning spells that you can easily theme if you happen to need them: Stinking Cloud, Web can become clutching shadows, etc. 

To get back to the OP's original question though; Summoners are a perfectly viable wizard build. Given a high CON and taking advantage of the feats and implement choices available and then say getting hold of a good Tome you're able to do pretty well. Summon Fire Warrior isn't a bad spell, though Summon Dretch may be better. In either case you get a fairly tough "shield" that you can attack through with little danger. The monsters will have to try to kill your Summons, which is pretty much just wasted damage.

Don't neglect the non-combat utility of summons either. Most daily attack powers are pointless outside of a fight. Summons however are almost guaranteed to be potentially useful. Being creatures they can do things. Even in the most strict interpretation of the summoning rules they can walk around and spring traps, etc. If your DM isn't one that goes by such a limited interpretation they can generally do anything a normal creature could do within limits. Anyway, they certainly have a higher RP and non-combat utility than most other daily powers.


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## Zaran (Sep 24, 2010)

I get the reskinning of spells to make them necromantic.  Just making sure you don't start adding the Tome of Binding bonus to conjurations.


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## Takhisis (Sep 24, 2010)

For those who thought I needed an undead horde, that was not my intent at all. I'm sorry if the OP came off that way. Also, thanks for the all info. I suppose I should stay current with what is going on. I was completely unaware of the dragon mag's summons, a lot of which work nicely for what I'm looking for. Also, the invoker hybrid could be a nice option and could actually come across as 4e "true necromancer" who has both divine and arcane casting. Also, while the darklock/wizard would be nice flavor wise, I'm looking to be a summon using controller, not a blaster with a little bit of controlling power. Hybriding with a Darklock while fitting flavor wise would make my character more focused on damage and less so on control and summons so crunch wise a pure wizard would be better for what I'm looking to do. As for paragon paths, if I remember correctly there was some kind of "blood mage" paragon path which would be a nice thematic fit though I am not sure if it's good or if it sucks.


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## Wednesday Boy (Sep 24, 2010)

ppaladin123 said:


> For paragon level you might want to multiclass to psion and take the "thrall herd" paragon path since it basically gives you a continuous zombie slave that you can have out at all times.




I was thinking the same thing!  And while I don't remember the details, Psionic Power gives summoning powers to Psions.  And Psions are an Intelligence based class, so they fulfill that critieria for the OP as well!


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## Zaran (Sep 24, 2010)

Takhisis said:


> For those who thought I needed an undead horde, that was not my intent at all. I'm sorry if the OP came off that way. Also, thanks for the all info. I suppose I should stay current with what is going on. I was completely unaware of the dragon mag's summons, a lot of which work nicely for what I'm looking for. Also, the invoker hybrid could be a nice option and could actually come across as 4e "true necromancer" who has both divine and arcane casting. Also, while the darklock/wizard would be nice flavor wise, I'm looking to be a summon using controller, not a blaster with a little bit of controlling power. Hybriding with a Darklock while fitting flavor wise would make my character more focused on damage and less so on control and summons so crunch wise a pure wizard would be better for what I'm looking to do. As for paragon paths, if I remember correctly there was some kind of "blood mage" paragon path which would be a nice thematic fit though I am not sure if it's good or if it sucks.




You know that there is a Necromancer coming out in an upcoming Essentials book right?  Heroes of Shadow I think is the title


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## Takhisis (Sep 24, 2010)

Yes, but we don't know if that book will have the full class or just new powers/builds. Mainly because the Assassin was supost to be DDI specific so the heroes of shadow book may only be new powers/builds rather then actual classes and the classes will be DDI exclusives, like the assassin. I'm not too keen on monthly payments so DDI is most likely out of the question unless I pay for it for only one month, print out all the content from it, and then cancle subscribtion to avoid monthly payments that way. However, there could be a chance that if it's just new builds that a Necro may in fact be a new build for the wizard. We've, after all, seen Hexblade as a warlock build and I believe Hexblades where mentioned as one of the "classes" in heroes of shadow, so it very well could mean that the "Necromancer" will be a new wizard build in that book and not a DDI exclusive.


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## AbdulAlhazred (Sep 24, 2010)

Takhisis said:


> Yes, but we don't know if that book will have the full class or just new powers/builds. Mainly because the Assassin was supost to be DDI specific so the heroes of shadow book may only be new powers/builds rather then actual classes and the classes will be DDI exclusives, like the assassin. I'm not too keen on monthly payments so DDI is most likely out of the question unless I pay for it for only one month, print out all the content from it, and then cancle subscribtion to avoid monthly payments that way. However, there could be a chance that if it's just new builds that a Necro may in fact be a new build for the wizard. We've, after all, seen Hexblade as a warlock build and I believe Hexblades where mentioned as one of the "classes" in heroes of shadow, so it very well could mean that the "Necromancer" will be a new wizard build in that book and not a DDI exclusive.




It sounded like the HoS is going to use some as-yet-to-be-defined mechanism to allow some 'shadow mixin' for other classes. We don't know if that only applies to Essentials classes (HoS itself is probably softcover but not an Essentials product per-se). It may be possible to use with existing 4e classes as well. We really don't know what sort of rules structure will be used for this. Is it going to be some sort of MC type option? Themes? Essentials class builds? Who really knows. I really doubt it is going to require having DDI to be useful. WotC has never yet published material in printed form that referenced back to DDI-only stuff, that doesn't really seem like something they want to do.

Oh, the Blood Mage PP is awesome. It is one of the better PPs around. There has been some significant errata but a good Blood Mage can really kick butt. Not sure it would fit really well with a summoner or not, though the 'inflict damage on myself" mechanic does make having a bunch of CON useful, so it might not be bad. It certainly has a bit of a necromantic feel to it. Refluffing it to sacrificing a bit of your soul to the dark forces of death would of course be trivial...


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## tyrlaan (Sep 27, 2010)

A bit of a radical thought... but if you like Invoker but not it's Wisdom-centric powers, why not just refluff Invoker AND change it to work off INT? Some of the invoker builds are already Wis/Int, so why not just reverse the two?


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## Gradine (Sep 27, 2010)

I've long since given up the idea that your stats determine your "character" in 4e. A 3e Rogue with 12 Dex, 18 Int and 16 Cha in 4e will likely have an 18 Dex, 16 Int and 13 Cha. It's the same character, just with a stat block that actually makes them an effective 4e character.

Divorcing the concept of attributes from being a role-playing tool was probably my final step in learning to stop worrying and love the 4e.

That said, reflavoring the Wizard's powers is probably still the way to go. Liberal use of energy substitution (is this a real feat now or still just something most sensible tables houserule as necessary?) to slap on some necrotic or fear damage to powers and you're good to go. With the right creative mind nearly any concept is feasible, from the aforementioned necromancer's Flaming Skull/Skeleton to a loonie who slings banana cream pies in lieu of Magic Missiles.

I also think that the Necromancer's ability to summon undead is a bit overblown... the PHB 3.5 gives the Necromancy school a grand total of 4 undead conjuration/creations (and that's if we're generous enough to count Spectral Hand). The spell compendium adds three more. And sure, there's the Summon Undead suite of spells (I-V) got made for the Dread Necromancer in the Heroes of Horror book, but these are still technically in the Conjuration school. Even if we shuffle these spells to the "proper" school that's just over 10% of Necromancy's spell list. If we add commanding undead that brings it to around 17%. They are iconic spells, to be sure, but you could have, at best, 1-2 undead summoning spells and still easily be a proper Necromancer.

I think we get this in our heads that summoning/controlling undead is the major shtick of necromancers because the majority of our dealings with them involve trolling through dungeons filled with summoned/controlled undead before confronting the big bad him/herself. And I'm sure when your necromancer finally wants to settle down and find a nice dungeon to study unholy rituals in, they'll probably do what they can to fill it with undead guardians. But your adventuring necromancer and your locked-in-the-dungeon necromancer are two entirely different beasts, which is where all those nifty fear, and contagion (refluffed poison or acid) and negative energy (necrotic) spells come in handy.


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## Gradine (Sep 28, 2010)

In fact, here's my attempt at a Wizard through 10 levels with exactly _one _summoning power (the "iconic" Animate Dead at 9th level). I instead focused on Cold, Psychic/Fear (the 4e Illusionist stole some of the Necromancer's stuff), Acid (refluffed as "Disease" or "Pestilence" or what have you), and I think two Necrotic powers.

You could probably do a much better job with feats (I didn't really put any effort into feat selection) and if you wanted Expanded Spellbook you might pick up a few extra Summons to re-fluff for your trouble. There are some quite interesting Religion-based skill powers that seem to fit well with the necromancer with a little refluffing (my favorite being Deliverance of Faith).

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Frank, level 10
Human, Wizard
Arcane Implement Mastery: Orb of Imposition

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 12, Dex 10, Int 20, Wis 18, Cha 12.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 12, Dex 10, Int 16, Wis 16, Cha 12.


AC: 22 Fort: 17 Reflex: 21 Will: 22
HP: 63 Surges: 7 Surge Value: 15

TRAINED SKILLS
History +15, Arcana +15, Insight +14, Religion +15, Dungeoneering +14

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +5, Bluff +6, Diplomacy +6, Endurance +6, Heal +9, Intimidate +6, Nature +9, Perception +9, Stealth +5, Streetwise +6, Thievery +5, Athletics +4

FEATS
Wizard: Ritual Caster
Human: Action Surge
Level 1: Bitter Cold
Level 2: Coordinated Explosion
Level 4: Expert Ritualist
Level 6: White Lotus Enervation
Level 8: Unarmored Agility
Level 10: Toughness

POWERS
Bonus At-Will Power: Winged Horde
Wizard at-will 1: Chilling Cloud
Wizard at-will 1: Ray of Frost
Wizard encounter 1: Ray of Enfeeblement
Wizard daily 1: Acid Arrow
Wizard daily 1 Spellbook: Phantom Chasm
Wizard utility 2: Daunting Presence
Wizard utility 2 Spellbook: Arcane Mutterings
Wizard encounter 3: Chill Claws
Wizard daily 5: Grasp of the Grave
Wizard daily 5 Spellbook: Acid Mire
Wizard utility 6: Deliverance of Faith
Wizard utility 6 Spellbook: Theologian's Shield
Wizard encounter 7: Corrosive Mist
Wizard daily 9: Animate Dead
Wizard daily 9 Spellbook: Face of Death
Wizard utility 10: Circle of Protection
Wizard utility 10 Spellbook: Assurance of Prophecy

ITEMS
Spellbook
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======


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