# Gaming W/Jemal: Planar Quest! (Closed)



## Jemal (Sep 24, 2012)

Alright everybody, as mentioned in a previous thread, I'm rather fond of higher level D&D, and so I've decided to run a 3.5 game.

Now, I have a few ideas of what to run, and since the high lvl crowd tends to be a bit smaller, I'm going to ask you which you'd prefer to play.  Please answer the poll!  Even if you just like reading the games. 

The first option is a lower-level remake of a game I used to run, Epic Problem.
Now, I had a great (Well, I think so..) story worked out for that one that I never got to finish.. I think one of the primary mistakes I made back then was that I tried to run multiple epic games at the same time.. and even worse, I tried to run two of them in the same world! (Epic problem had a good and an evil team.)

[sblock=Epic Problem]
The original is located HERE
Toning it down for non-epic play is rather simple, and gives the chance to pit Non-Epic Heroes in a non-epic setting against Epic Villains.  There are a few things in the story that need to change.
Instead of being Epic characters hired from outside and sent in by the Gods, the PC's would be some of the most powerful heroes INSIDE the material when the Epic Villains appear, and it is up to them to save the world from these seemingly unstoppable extra-planar Legendary Evils..
[/sblock]

Now the second Idea I'd like to pitch to you is for people who'd prefer to try a fresh campaign.  

[sblock=Jemals Quest]
It will start with all (Or at least most) of the PC's being members of a pre-established adventuring band.  Friends, family, companions, maybe the new guy who just got recruited, etc..  They've been collecting clues throughout their careers that have finally lead them to a great discovery!  They've found information that will start them on a mighty Quest spanning the Planes themselves, leading them to a hidden realm in which the gods themselves cannot tread, where lies a sleeping power that has been calling to them for years..
[/sblock]

So please answer the poll as to which one you'd prefer to play/watch!


In either case, the character creation rules will be the same, so please base your decision on which setting you'd prefer.  The first will be contained almost entirely within the material plane, while the second will likely take place mostly on other planes.

*Character Creation rules in post 10*


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## Shayuri (Sep 24, 2012)

I suggest merging the two.

Perhaps this strange realm is discovered...and from out of it come the nightmarish villainry that cause the Epic Problem. Perhaps the hidden realm is, in addition to whatever else it is, a prison for some kind of massively powerful entity that was locked away because nothing could actually destroy it at the time it once walked the world...

In breaching the prison, the evil is released into the world...but perhaps the means to defeat it is within it as well...


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## kinem (Sep 24, 2012)

I'm one that selected J's Q. I'd like to get in on some Planescape action


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## Voda Vosa (Sep 24, 2012)

I also voted for JQ. Although Shayuri idea sounds fun. Of course, as players we should not know what awaits us in that mysterious place!


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## Shayuri (Sep 24, 2012)

I did vote for the Quest, though I don't see that Quest is mutually exclusive with Problem.


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## Jemal (Sep 24, 2012)

Of course they're not completely exclusive, it's just more the feel that is different.


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## D'Raven (Sep 25, 2012)

Quest me please... And you had a second post and I don't see any character creation rules


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## Scott DeWar (Sep 25, 2012)

it looks like Journey Quest it is with at least 1 person in the audience!


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## Binder Fred (Sep 26, 2012)

I'd be interrested in the Quest as well, if you'll have me. I'm thinking a (hill?) dwarf monk/stonemason at this point. Hm...

How planar-savvy will/should the characters be at the begining of this, Jemal? Almost completely green primes might be fun to play (gives a nice sense of wonder).


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## Jemal (Sep 26, 2012)

Alright, looks like the extraplanar quest is a resounding winner with 6 votes.

So, those that voted to play (Whichever game) Are welcome to suggest character concepts.  I think 5-6 characters will be my limit for this.

So, creation rules (Sorry, totally spaced on posting them earlier)

CHARACTER CREATION RULES:

OK, First off, Here's my massive list of House Rules.
[sblock=Jemals House Rules]
*RULE NUMBER ZERO*
I like Dragons.  If you want to play as one, have one as a cohort/mount, etc, just ask and we'll work something out.
*RULE NUMBER ONE*
MAD...  Mutually Assured Destruction.  I won't pull out uber-nasty stuff if you don't.

*INJURIES*
How I'll be describing how injured enemies are will be based on a percentage of their total hp, modified by how difficult it is to gauge their wounds (It's easier to tell how hurt a normal person is comapared to say Someone fully covered in platemail, or a strange monster). I'll post one of these up every few rounds.
Uninjured: HP>90%
Mildly Injured: 70-90%
Injured: 50-70%
Badly Injured: 30-50%
Severely Injured: 10-30%
Nearly Dead: HP<10%

*STATS*
I'd prefer it if people didn't pump their stats TOO much (Specifically AC, Attack bonuses, Saves). I'd prefer not to have the case of "Monster needs a 20 to hit player X, a 2 to hit anyone else" or "OK, saves everybody.. X and Y need 20's, everyone else don't roll a 1". 
It makes encounter design a lot more of a headache when the numbers are too far gone. SO, If you notice your numbers are a LOT higher (Say more than 20) than everyone else, either look into devoting less to that stat, or helping the others bring their power up to your level.
Don't be too worried about keeping in line with the other players, everyone SHOULD have their own unique strengths and weaknesses, just don't go overboard on pumping something. If any of your Attack/AC/Saves numbers has three digits, for example, it's probably too high...
Unless you can all swing such numbers in which case - Sweet, I can take off the gloves and throw the paragon pseudonatural half-draconic 3-headed tarrasquelich at you guys. j/k... mostly.

*DEATH*
Instead of dying at -10, you die at -CON Score.. so if your constitution is 36, you don't die until -36. IF your con happens to be below 10.. Well, tough luck, I guess. Any effect that mentions the "Dying" state (normally -1 to -9) now reffers instead to this 'extended' dying state.

*ONE HIT KILLS/DISABLES* - I dislike attack forms meant to end a fight with a single attack, such as instant death attacks, "Save-OR" effects, etc. I'm not going to outlaw it, especially against minor encounters, but remember MAD.  If you start flinging Dominate Monter/Death Spells, etc at bosses, I'll have bosses start throwing them back.  

Which Brings us to 
*IMMUNITIES*
I dislike characters having numerous immunities.  
Mind Blank does not exist. 
Don't bother taking Immunities to Death Effects.  See above RE: Instant Death.  If you don't use them, I wont.  If you do, your immunity wont help you.
Freedom of Movement does not give immunity to grapple.  It gives + Caster Level to checks made to escape grapples.  Rest is as normal.

*SKILLS*
General: Nat 1's are equal to a -20 on skill/ability checks, auto fail anything else. Nat 20's are equal to a 40 on skill/ability checks, auto-succeed anything else.
Diplomacy/Intimidate/Perform: I'm not fond of the high-lvl usages of these skills to control people.  As such, these skills now work equally well against PCs. (See MAD)
Spot/Listen, Hide/Move Silent : I prefer the pathfinder method of Perception and Stealth.  If you have Spot and/Or Listen as a class skill, you gain Perception instead.  Likewise with Hide/Move Silent turning into Stealth.  HOWEVER If you have any bonuses that DONT apply to both (Size bonus to Hide, racial bonus to spot, etc) then you only get HALF the bonus (Round down minimum 1).

* MISCELLANEOUS*
I do not use Massive Damage rules.
Mordenkainen's Disjunction does not destroy items that are in an intelligent creature's possession.
Superior Invisibility does not exist.

New Spell: 
PowerSight 
LEVEL: 1 (Bard, Dragon), 2 (All other). 
Duration: Instantaneous.
Casting Time: 1 Swift Action. 
Description: Gives ECL of a single target, if within 10 ECL of caster level, or general estimate if more than 10 removed.  Grants +5 Divine bonus to Knowledge and Gather Information checks about the target if made within 1 hour of casting.

*Equipment*
I don't like housekeeping mundane gear at higher levels, so I allow adventurers to aquire a new item called the "Bag of Random Stuff".  There are two types.
Type A: NonMagical : This is a normal backpack that just has a lot of stuff crammed into it.  It cannot be used to store anything, but whenever you need a mundane piece of gear worth 100gp or less, you can reach in and find it *Assuming it can fit* (Full round action to dig around).  Deduct the cost of the item from the amount stored in the bag.  
Cost: 10 GP + however much 'stuff' you want to be able to pull out of it (Can be 'reloaded' at any store).
Type B: Magical: This can take the form of a Hewards Handy Haversack or Bag of Holding.  It's carrying capacity is halved.  It works like a nonmagical Bag of Random Stuff, but there is no price limit to the gear that can be pulled out (Provided it is not magical).  Any 'special' gear (Special/Alchemical substances/items, Special materials, etc) costs twice as much. (IE an Adamantine Battleaxe would cost 6020 to pull out of the bag, or alchemist's fire for 40gp. )
Cost: Base bag + amount inside. 
Type C: Portal to the Bazaar : This is reserved for High level/Epic games.  This seemingly ordinary bag is actually a dimensional portal to the Bazaar, an entire plane full of merchants.  The owner has an account with a trusted (Well as much as those guys can be trusted) Merchant in the Bazaar, and can use the bag to buy or sell items without needing to travel.  Any purchaseable item that can fit through the 4'X4' Opening (Including magic items) may be purchased at standard Market Price +10%.
Likewise, the merchant will buy any goods placed inside at 50% standard Market Price.  They will be automatically and correctly Appraised.  (There's demand for practically everything in the Bazaar, so he can resell it).  The Portal's owner will have his account credited the amount.  The owner can also add to his account by simply depositing money straight into the bag.  There are no refunds however, only store credit.
Cost: 20,000 + Account balance.

[/sblock]

OK, now that Massive Text Wall # 1  is out of the way, time for Wall # 2: 
[sblock=Specific Creation Rules]
*SOURCES*
I have easy access to and understanding of the following material: Core, some Completes (Warrior, Arcane, Mage, Divine, Adventurer, Scoundrel), Draconomicon, Dragon Magic, and Races of the Dragon.
Anything outside that will have to be asked for on a case-by-case basis.

*LEVEL* : 20 (200,000 XP)*see below*
Spell-casters : If you are capable of casting 5th or higher level spells (Or using 6th lvl or higher Spell Like Abilities), you start at lvl 19 (180,000 XP).  

*Gear*: You each start with an even Mill:  1,000,000 GP.
I'll allow any non-magical gear from standard sources.  
Magical gear: If it's not Core, It will be on a case-by-case basis.
I DO allow item slot-swapping and stacking.  (You could add +6 str AND dex to a pair of gloves, for example, or make a Vest of natural armour instead of an Amulet, using the normal DMG rules for such).

Intelligent Items are allowed (In fact, I encourage at least one in the party), but with the following caveats: 
Any intelligent item will have: 18 in one mental stat, 16 in another, 14 in the third; 3 lesser powers, 1 or 2 greater powers; 120 ft. darkvision, blindsense, and hearing, Speech, Telepathy with wielder; AND a special purpose. Base price of +10,000GP + powers.  You will NOT have to pay the special power cost (But see below).
Also, if it's your weapon, it can be a special material (Adamantine, Cold iron, etc) as a free upgrade.

Player picks the Lesser/Greater powers and stat distribution. (Alignment will be same as Character)
DM picks the personality, Languages, and special purpose/power UNLESS the character made the item with the appropriate Item Creation Feat. (Don't worry I wont screw you over.).  We'll decide between us who roleplays the item.


You also have developed a party fund of 100,000 GP.  This is generally used for healing, lodging, food, and other expenses.  You may not buy personal gear out of this, but with party consensus you may use it to buy party items (Wands, Potions, etc).

*RACES*
All non-core races/templates are on a Case-by-Case Basis.
Most non-standard races/templates will likely have increased Level Adjustment as a form of discouragement/balance.
Specifics: 
Half-Dragons will stay at LA +3, but gain their wings regardless of size.
There will be two new types of Half-dragon that have +4 LA : Shadow (Immunity to Negative energy/Level drain), and Force(Immune to Force effects).
Dragons from the core Monsters Manual have a Level Adjustment = Age Category (This takes precedence over the Draconomicon)

*STATS*
10 base in all stats, 30 points to distribute (Max 18 before other modifiers)

*HP*
80% rounded to closest whole number: 
d4=3, d6=5, d8=6, d10=8, d12=10.
[/sblock]

*More Specific details about the campaign backstory/plot to be added.  Wanted to get you guys the numbers so you could start your builds.
For the most part the backstory of the prime can be built by the PC's.  What they've been doing on the prime up until now, how they fit together, etc.  The only important piece of info I'll really be giving you BEFORE the campaign starts is the details on the clues/info you gathered to discover your 'Quest'.  Feel free to make assumptions with the prime, very little of your time after we start will be spent there anyways.


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## Jemal (Sep 26, 2012)

Specific Questions: 


> How planar-savvy will/should the characters be at the begining of this, Jemal? Almost completely green primes might be fun to play (gives a nice sense of wonder).




Your characters will be some of the most powerful mortals around, it's more than likely that you at least have a working understanding of the planes, MAYBE some of you have visited (Most likely transitional planes, ie astral/ethereal, maybe something further out).
No problem with planar knowledge, but unless part of your character's 'thing' is travelling to or interacting with other planes (A planeswalker, Thaumaturge, etc.), leaving the prime is probably a big deal.


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## kinem (Sep 26, 2012)

I'm thinking of a warlock. No info in front of me so I'm not sure ATM if that falls into the lvl 19 category.


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## Shayuri (Sep 26, 2012)

Hee...Kinem beat me to it. 

That said, I'm feeling a sorceror as well...maybe even a druid, though they lack some essential tools for dealing with planar stuff.

Though it's hard to go back to 3.5 sorcerors after the coolness that is Pathfinder sorcerors.


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## Scott DeWar (Sep 26, 2012)

Shayuri said:


> Though it's hard to go back to 3.5 sorcerors after the coolness that is Pathfinder sorcerors.




Shay, I feel your pain!


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## Scott DeWar (Sep 26, 2012)

]here are some character ideas that can get mutated to the need, and upped a few levels
these are all character ideas I never got to play.....:


--Chaotic Good Human male wizard (transmuter) 9 
Name: Bernidect Arturo du metsade
as lv 20: transmuter 20

--Gerard Hampton, Neutral good Human Priest 8
as lv 20: cleric 20

--w5/f2/sb prc 1
 swiftblade prc 

as lv 20: w7/f2 swiftblade 10

or
--from a game you had an interst in, Fifth Sepulcher 
"The Archeologist" sorcerer 6/rogue 2/fighter 2/PRC: Eldrich Knight 2

as lv 20: sorcerer 6/rogue 2/fighter 2/PRC: Eldrich Knight 10

what do you think of the swiftblade??


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## Voda Vosa (Sep 26, 2012)

I'll try a melee character. Was looking at Giants, don't know if you'll allow that. An ogre perhaps?


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## Jemal (Sep 26, 2012)

Kinem - On the one hand, yes Warlocks do use Spell like abilities.. On the other, they aren't particularily overpowering in the way spells can be..
I'm gonna say you can stay lvl 20.

Shay - agreed, I've always felt 3.5 sorc was kinda robbed by having no lvl up abilities beyond spellcasting.  There's no reason not to PrC ASAP..  
Wanna use the pathfinder sorc?
I'll have to look it over again, make sure everything's compatible, but shouldn't be a problem.  
You'd still be only lvl 19 if you wanna be able to cast the higher level spells though. 

Scott: Keep in mind that mages would be lvl 19 if they're capable of casting 5th or higher lvl spells.
I'll have to take some time to look over the swiftblade, I'll check it out if i get some free time at work tonight.

VV : Depends on what kinda Giant?  Ogres I'm fine with, they're not too far out.


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## D'Raven (Sep 26, 2012)

Level 20 you say... So how about raven from your blood lines campaign? Just a few tweaks and it should be fine.


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## Shayuri (Sep 26, 2012)

_Shay - agreed, I've always felt 3.5 sorc was kinda robbed by having no lvl up abilities beyond spellcasting. There's no reason not to PrC ASAP..
Wanna use the pathfinder sorc?
I'll have to look it over again, make sure everything's compatible, but shouldn't be a problem.
You'd still be only lvl 19 if you wanna be able to cast the higher level spells though. _

First, yes, that'd be awesome. 

Spellcasting progression for a Pathfinder Sorceror is exactly the same as a 3.5 one, except they get some bonus known spells from their bloodline.

A pathfinder sorceror is definitely a power-up over a 3.5 sorceror though. I'd argue that it's still in the range of 3.5 classes like wizard, cleric, and so on, due to the 3.5 sorceror being underpowered to start with...but I'd also understand if people playing rogues/fighters/etc also clamored to have the upgunned versions from Pathfinder if that's allowed for me.

To be honest, I don't see why that would be a bad thing, but it's something to consider.


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## Binder Fred (Sep 27, 2012)

Jemal said:


> a working understanding of the planes, MAYBE some of you have visited (Most likely transitional planes, ie astral/ethereal, maybe something further out).



Experience being different than knowledge, that's pretty much what I meant by "green".  

A further question while I'm at it: does Sigil exist in this version of the planes? The City of Doors is, in large part I think, a cludge to safely fit low level characters into a setting initially designed solely for high-level play. Since we already *are* high-level, I thought I'd ask.


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## Voda Vosa (Sep 27, 2012)

*Chieftain Tutek*







*Story*:

Tutek was born the smartest of his breed. Despite his intelligence not being more than an average human, among the common breed ogres, he was a genius. The Ogre magi breed of his tribe hold an iron fist over their less mentally gifted bredren, and a smart common ogre, even if he was not as smart as they were, was a threat. They simply tried to kill the young ogre, without mediating words, but the clever Tutek knew what was coming, and fled. The ogre magi thought the dwarf would soon take care of the fleeting young ogre, and didn't bother following him.
Tutek was no evil by nature, as most ogres are. He enjoyed a dwarf strew just as anyone does once in a while, but getting food when you are alone in the mountains is not easy. Specially armoured, trained, 'axe wielding' food; so he had to go hunting small game. The dwarf noticed the lone ogre, and carefully approached him. Tutek was afraid of the dwarf as they greatly advantaged him in numbers and gear. He had but an improvised spear, not good to skewer dwarven plate. 
So Tutek did what few Ogres have done before him, talk himself out of trouble. Despite the initial reluctance of the dwarves, Tutek convinced the dwarves he was not evil, and that he wished only to be able to return to his tribe, and free the common ogres from the tyranic rule of the Ogre magi. The dwarves saw in Tutek the chance to get rid of the ogre problems once and for all, and supported Tutek, gave him gear and magical trinkets to be able to fight the ogre magi. They also lead him to the other side of the mountains, where there was some orc and goblin tribes. With the help of the dwarves, Tutek soon became the chieftain of the orcs and goblins, and lead them to war against his tribe.
The war was short lived though. While the ogres fought agianst Tutek's army, a dwarf party infiltrated the ogre caves, and fought they way to the Chieftain. Meanwhile, Tutek managed to convince his bredren of his intentions and slay any ogre mage in the field, before getting himself too, into the caves.
When Tutek reached the throne room, the dwarf were already fighting the chieftain and his guards.
Seizing the opportunity, Tutek advanced unmatched, and killed the ogre mage that years before tried to kill him. Tutek purged the tribe from mages, and was established as Chieftain of the Mountains. He signed a peace treaty with the dwarves, so that ogres, orcs and dwarves might live peacefully. The orcs were allowed to choose a chief for themselves (picked on a fight to the death of course) and peace ensured for years. 

Then it came the Great Drought, out of nowhere. The game animals were scarce, and the few crops the ogres and orcs had, wither. The shamans and druids claimed the drought was not natural, that was caused by some external agent, although the exact nature of it remained a secret. Inside their caves, the dwarves didn't mind their newly formed allies pillaging the human city established near the edge of the mountains for resources. Despite everything, the orcs and ogres needed to eat too, so the human's cattle started disappearing, and one or two incidents involving ogres and humans let some bloody scores.
It was then that a group of famous adventurers was called upon, to deal with this new formed 'Horde'. 
They travelled though the mountains, and were stopped both by orcs, ogres and dwarves alike. Shocked at this gathering of races that hold ancestral hatred to each other, the party asked to parley with the leader of the horde. "What horde be ye speakin' 'bout?" the dwarf captain rebuked, "Yer trespassing territory of the alliance, name yer business." The adventurers explained the situation, and the guards escorted the adventurers to the meeting hall. The meeting Hall was an improvised stone building on a valley between the mountains. A messager had been sent to spread the word and call for audience, so when the adventurers arrived to the hall, there was Tutek, Chieftain of the Ogres, his guards and his son Tatok, Mundim King of the dwarves, his royal escort and the princes Houdin and Mondin, and Harmat Chieftain of the orcs, surrounded by his offspring, four tall and muscle-bound orcs, Tramat, Armat, Ramat and Marmat 
The adventurers explained the problem and discussion broke the silence of the hall. It was agreed that a solution to both part needed to be sought. Despite the humans having more resources, if the unnatural drought didn't end, they will soon starve too. Tutek, Houdin and Tramat would accompany the party to seek a solution for the drought. Tatok was an apprentice shaman, and remained as Chieftain of the Ogres, as he was not old enough to leave the tribe. 
The new group travelled far and wide, for a whole year, consulting scholars and wizards of astronomic reputation, until they found the source of the draught: a magical ritual from a rival country, that would tear apart the alliance and starve the people, to ready the otherwise fertile and defensible territories for conquest. 
Having discovered the source of the problem, the group returned to the mountains, and an army was raised and prepared. 
The Chieftains and Kings marched in front of their armies, men, dwarf, orc and ogre side by side fighting for survival. 
The battle was epic, many good souls were lost, among them the Mundim, king of the dwarfs and Harmat, the orc chieftain. But their sacrifice was not in vain, as the enemy capital was overrun, and the ritual stopped. The army returned victorious, if reduced.
Back in the mountains, Mondin was appointed King of the dwarves, and as a symbol of a new, more prosperous era, Tute stepped down and proclaimed his son Tatok as Chieftain, allegating that these new peaceful times required a wise leader, and not a warrior. Harmat's sons would surely fight to death over his father's throne. Orcs.
Tutek joined the party, having developed a lasting friendship with them. Their adventures had just began.

*Disclaimer*: If any of the PC's want to share backgrounds and be, for example, one of the dwarf king sons, we can change their names to fit yours and say they also joined the party. Same thing with orcs or humans from the town.



```
[B]Name[/B]: Tutek
[B]Class[/B]: Ogre 4, Fighter 14
[B]Race[/B]: Ogre
[B]Size[/B]: Large
[B]Gender[/B]: Male
[B]Alignment[/B]: Chaotic Neutral 


Str: 30/36 +10/+13	Level: 20        XP: 0
Dex: 14/16 +2/+3		BAB: +17 (+3 Ogre, +14 fighter)    HP: 286 (3+9)x4+(8+9)x14
Con: 22/28 +6/+9	Grapple: +35     Dmg Red: 0
Int: 16 +3		Speed: 40'       Spell Res: 0
Wis: 10 +0		Init: +3     	 Spell Save: +0
Cha: 08 -1		ACP: -3          Spell Fail: 0%

               Base  Armor Shld   Dex  Size   Nat  Misc  Total
Armor:          10    +9    +0    +3    -1    +10    +1    32
Touch: 13              Flatfooted: 28

                           Base   Mod  Misc    Total
Fort:                      13     +9     +6     +28
Ref:                       5      +3     +6     +14
Will:                      5      +0     +6     +11

[b]Weapon		Attack		Damage	Critical[/b]
Sendesemcal 	+37/32/27/22	2d6+29	19-20x2
Throwing axe	+32/27/22/17	1d8+15	x2
Gauntlet	+30/25/20/15	1d4+13	x2

Languages: Common, Giant

Abilities: 
Ogre:     
-Abilities: STR +10, CON +4, DEX-2, INT & CHA -4
-BAB: +3
-Natural armor +5
-Speed: 40
-Reach 10'
-Darkvision 60', Low light vision

Feats: 
Fighter feats ( Profs + (F))
Cleave (F)
Combat Expertise
Dodge (F)
Exotic weapon prof. Spiked Chain (F)
Great cleave
Greater wep. Spec (Spiked Chain) 
Greater wep. Focus(Spiked Chain) (F)
Improved critical (Spiked Chain) (F)
Mobility (F)
Power attack (F)
Quick draw
Shield Proficiency
Spring attack
Weapon focus (Spiked Chain)
Weapon speci. (Spiked Chain) (F)
Whirlwind attack


Skills               Ranks	Mod	Misc	Total
Climb			7	+13     -2     +18
Intimidate		11	-1      +1     +11
Jump			10	+13     +6     +29 
Listen			10	+0      +1     +11
Ride			4	+3      +1     +8
Spot			11	+0      +1     +12
Swim			10	+13     -5     +18
Spellcraft		*10	+3      +1     +14
Knowledge Arcana	*10	+3      +1     +14
 
*From Sendesemcal 

Equipment:            

Mithral fullplate of speed 				(50lb, 28000gp)
+5 Spiked Chain 					(20lb, 255550gp)
Spiked Chain 						(20lb, 25gp)
+2 Throwing Axe 					(Returning, Distance: 32316 gp)
Amulet of health +6 					(36000 gp)
Gloves of natural armor +5 				(50000 gp)
Manual of bodily health +4, read. 			(110000 gp)
Ioun stones:
Deep red 						(8000 gp) +2 DEX
Pale green 						(30000 gp) +1 competence to attacks, checks, skills and saves 
Dusty rose 						(5000 gp) +1 insight AC
Ring of evasion 					(25000 gp)
Boots of striding and springing 			(36000 gp)
Ring of Feather falling 				(2200 gp)
Potions:
Heroism x2						(1500 gp)
Reduce person x4					(1000 gp)
Enlarge Person x4					(1000 gp)
Invisibility x5						(1500 gp)
Belt of giant strength +6 				(36000 gp)
Cloack of resistance +5 				(25000 gp)
Everburning torch 					(110 gp)
Bed roll
Tent							(20lb, 10 gp)
Waterskin
             
Money: 15070 gp
                        

[B]Sendesemcal the Chained Sorceror[/b]
Adamantine Spiked chain +5

Intelligent Item
Int: 16, Wis: 14, Cha: 18 Languages: ?
Purpose: ?
Lesser powers: Detect magic at will, 10 ranks in spellcraft, 10 ranks in knowledge Arcana
Greater powers: ?
Abilities: 55200gp

Weapon properties:
Mighty Cleaving
Shock
Spell storing
Wounding
Properties: 200350gp
```


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## kinem (Sep 27, 2012)

Jemal: Is hp average after 1st level? Is the greater chasuble of fell power OK? Thanks.


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## Binder Fred (Sep 27, 2012)

*Jemal:* What are your thoughts on psions? After a quick look around, it seems most of the cool paths to power for the high-level monk pass through the valley of the Psionic Fist prestige class (and it seems like it can be a very cinematic voyage as well ). Now I don't have the books myself (in career I've played one(1) psionic character way back when in a Darksun campaign) but a friend of mine does. I just thought I'd ask before I dive into the Expended Psionics Handbook (where the prestige class is): is there a chance you will you allow them? 

*VV:* Don't know if you qualify for it, but Awesome Blow could be an -uhum- awesome addition to a Large character.


----------



## Scott DeWar (Sep 27, 2012)

'the archeologist'

work in progress

*Gerard Hampton* Rog 1/ scor 6/ f 2/ e k 5/ a c 5
00FF70= jade
*personal Information*

```
[b]Str[/b]   22  +6   5 pt  [b]Hp:[/b] 19*5+12*5+7*8=211
[b]Dex[/b]   22  +6   6 pt  [b]Exp:[/b] 200,000
[b]Con[/b]   20  +5   4 pt  [b]BAB:[/b]+15/+10/+5
[b]Int[/b]   20  +5   4 pt  [b]Grapple:[/b]+21
[b]Wis[/b]   22  +6   6 pt  [b]Inititive:[/b] +10
[b]Chr[/b]   24  +7   5 pt  [b]move[/b] 30 feet

counter:
00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000
00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000
00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000
00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000
00000 00000 0[/s]

Levels 4, 8 and 12 ability increase: +1 to charisma at each.
Level 16: +1 to Str 
+6 to each stat from headband or belt

[b]Encumbrance:[/b]

Carrying: 43.5 lb

Lite: to 173 lb           Med: 174 to 346 LB          Hvy: 347 to 520 LB
Lift over head: 520 LB    Lift off ground: 1040 LB    Push/ drag: 2600 LB
```

*COMBAT:* 

```
[b]SAVES:    [u]base  abil  misc   total[/u][/b]
[u]Fort[/u]       10   +5     +5     +20 *+5 vs undead effects
[u]Reflex[/u]     6    +6     +5     +17
[u]will[/u]       10   +6     +5     +21

Rogue:     Fort: +0; Ref: +2; Will: +0
fighter:   fort: +3; ref: +0; Will: +0
Scor:      fort: +2; ref: +2; Will: +5
E. Knight: fort: +4; ref: +1; Will: +1 
abj champ: fort: +1; ref: +1; will: +4 

[B]special:[/B]
[U]Sepulchral vest[/U]: +5 Sacred bonus on save vs undead effects 


[B][U]ARMOR CLASS:[/u][/b] 30 [41w/ mage armor, gtr]
[B][U]TOUCH:[/B][/U]       30 [41w/ mage armor, gtr]
[b][U]FLATFOOTED:[/B][/U]  24 [35w/ mage armor, gtr]
[b][u]add +2 ac vs undead from Choker of Life Protection[/b][/u] [MIC]
[B][U]+1 shield bonus when fighting 2 weapon[/U][/B] Feat 2 wpn def
[B][U]+2 shield bonusWhen you are fighting defensively or using the 
  total defense action[/U][/B] Feat 2 wpn def
 
[Mage Armor, greater +6, prc: AC +5 dex +6, magic +5, 
ring of protection +3, natural + 6]


[B]WEAPONS: [U][I]**+2 att, +1d6 dam vs undead [gauntlets]**[/I][/U][/B]
Melee
[u][b]               att          dam     crit       type[/u][/b]
Rapier       +26/+21/+16   1d6+11  15-20/X2     P
S. Sword     +24/+19/+14   1d6+9   19-20/x2     P
Dagger       +24/+19/+14   1d4+9   19-20/x2     P/S
Club         +24/+19/+14   1d6+9      x2        b
  vs undead: +26/+21/+16   3d6+11               b
  Any undead creature struck in combat must succeed on a DC 14 
    Will save or be destroyed.

Melee, full round  [off hand att at -2/-7-12/]
[u][b]               att          dam     crit       type[/u][/b]
Rapier       +24/+19/+14   1d6+11  15-20/X2     P
S. Sword     +22/+17/+12   1d6+9   19-20/x2     P

          [B][U][I]OR[/I][/U][/B]

Melee, full round  [off hand att at -2/-7-12/]
[u][b]               att          dam     crit       type[/u][/b]
Rapier       +24/+19/+14   1d6+11  15-20/X2     P
Club         +22/+17/+12   1d6+9   19-20/x2     P 
  vs undead: +24/+19/+14   3d6+11               b
  Any undead creature struck in combat must succeed on a DC 14 
    Will save or be destroyed.

          [B][U][I]OR[/I][/U][/B]

Melee, full round  [off hand att at -2/-7-12/]
[u][b]               att          dam     crit       type[/u][/b]
Rapier       +24/+19/+14   1d6+11  15-20/X2     P
dagger       +22/+17/+12   1d6+9   19-20/x2     P/S

Ranged
[u][b]                att         dam    crit     rng    type[/u][/b]
Longbow      +24/+19/+14   1d8+9  19-20/x2  220'    P 
 arrow, mwk  +24/+19/+14   1d8+9  19-20/x2  220'    P 
 arrow,  +1  +24/+19/+14   1d8+10 19-20/x2  220'    P 
 arrow,  +2  +24/+19/+14   1d8+11 19-20/x2  220'    P 
 arrow,      +24/+19/+14   1d8+13 19-20/x2  220'    P  [U][B][I]undead bane[/I][/B][/U] +2   
Dagger       +20/+15/+10   1d4+9  19-20/x2   10'   P/S returning
Club         +20/+15/+10   1d6+9     x2      10'    B
  vs undead: +22/+17/+12   3d6+11                   B
  Any undead creature struck in combat must succeed on a DC 14 
    Will save or be destroyed.

Rapier: +5, Keen, Speed
l. bow, mighty +6 comp,  +3, distance
 arrows, mw *50 
 arrows,+1 *30 
 arrows,+2 *20 
 arrows, undead bane +2 * 50
 adamentine arrows +2 x 50 
Short sword: +3, spell storing [disrept undead, gtr; cl 18, 10d8 damage]
club: +3, undead bane, disruption
dagger, +3, returning

BAB Calculations
[str: +6, dex: +6, bab +15 [prc +5, ftr +2, rog +0, scor +3, a. champ +5]
```

*SKILLS AND FEATS:*

```
[b]FEATS/FEATURES:[/b]  
Rog 1
Sneak attack +1d6; [url=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm#trapfinding]trapfinding[/url]

Scor 1
Class Skill:[B][U][I] perception; cantrips; eschew materials;
Bloodline power: Claws (Su)[/I][/U][/B] 
Starting at 1st level, you can grow claws as a free action. These claws are 
treated as natural weapons, allowing you to make two claw attacks as a 
full attack action using your full base attack bonus. Each of these attacks 
deals 1d4 points of damage plus your Strength modifier (1d3 if you are 
Small). At 5th level, these claws are considered magic weapons for the 
purpose of overcoming DR. At 7th level, the damage increases by one step 
to 1d6 points of damage (1d4 if you are Small). At 11th level, these claws 
deal an additional 1d6 points of damage of your energy type on a 
successful hit. You can use your claws for a number of rounds per day 
equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier. These rounds do not need to be 
consecutive.

[B][U][I]Bloodline Arcana[/I][/U][/B]:
 Whenever you cast a spell with an energy descriptor that matches 
your draconic bloodline's energy type, that spell deals +1 point of 
damage per die rolled.

Scor 3
[B][U][I]Bloodline power: Dragon Resistances (Ex):[/I][/U][/B]
 At 3rd level, you gain resist 5 against your energy type and a +1 natural 
armor bonus. At 9th level, your energy resistance increases to 10 and 
natural armor bonus increases to +2. At 15th level, your natural armor 
bonus increases to +4.
bloodline spell MAGE ARMOR

Scor 5
bloodline spell Resist Energy


[B][I]2 Weapon fighting[/I][/B] (Human)
[B][I]2 Weapon Defense[/I][/B] (Char lev 1)
[B][I]Scribe scroll[/I][/B] (Char lev 3)
[B][I]somatic weaponry[/I][/B] (Fighter lv 1) -Comp mage pg 47
[B][I]Improved 2 wpn fighting[/I][/B] (Fighter lv 2)
[B][I]Practiced Spellcaster[/I][/B] (Char lv 6) Comp arcane pg 82
[B][I]Acidic splatter[/I][/B] (Char Lev 9) -Comp mage pg 37
[B][I]combat casting[/I][/B] (Eldrich Knight lev 1)
[B][I]brew potion[/I][/B](Char Level 12 ) 
[B][I]craft wand[/I][/B](Char Level 15 )
[I][B]craft arms and armor[/B][/I] (Char Level 18 )  

future:
sudden silent [meta]
sudden still [meta]
Energy Substitution [meta] pre req: any meta (comp arcane p 79)
Energy Admixture [meta] pre req: Energy Substitution (comp arcane p 79)


[u]Skill points[/u] 178
18*5 [int] + [[5+8]*4] [rog] + 2*2 [ftr] + 6*2 [scor] + 2*5
   [prc: EK] + 2*5 prc: AC]

[b]SKILLS:[/b]               Ranks Abil misc total
Appraise  int          +1   +5   --     +6
Balence  dex          +10   +6   --    +16
Bluff  cha             +1   +7   --     +8
Climb  str             +5   +6   --    +11
Conctr  con           +15   +5   +4    +24 feat
Disable Dev  int       +5   +5   +2    +12
Esc Art  dex           +5   +6   --    +11
Fly Dex                +5   +6   --    +11
Gath info  cha         +5   +7   --    +12
Jump  str             +10   +6   --    +16
Know: Arcana  int     +14   +5   --    +19
Know: local  int      +10   +5   --    +15
Open Locks  dex       +15   +6   +2    +23
Perception Wis        +15   +6   --    +21
profession:
  harbordasher         +6   +6   --    +12
Ride  dex             +10   +6   --    +16
Sense Motive  wis      +5   +6   --    +11
Spellcraft  int        +7   +5   +2    +14
stealth               +15   +6  +15    +36 [silk shirt]
Swim  str              +4   +6   --    +10
Tumble  dex            +5   +6   +2    +13
Use Mag Dev  cha       +5   +7   +2    +14
Use Rope  dex          +5   +6   --    +11

mwk picks : +2 to opn locks and dis dev

syn:
jump -->    tumble
Know arcana --> spellcraft
spellcraft -->  use mag dev

[b][u]LANGUAGES:[/b][/u]
```
*Spell Casting*

```
[B][U]SPELLS: spells / day or known = lv 18[/U]
base: Scor 6
 casts spells at: +3 levls from feat (praticed spell caster);  
 + 4 lv from eldrich knight 
 +5 levels from Abjurent Champion
 acid spells cast at lev 19 
 all others: Casts as 18th level[/B]

[b]spells per day:         spells kwn:[/b]
lv 0: unlimited  = u        9
lv 1: 6 + 2 (ch) = 8        5
lv 2: 6 + 2 (ch) = 8        5
lv 3: 6 + 2 (ch) = 8        4
lv 4: 6 + 1 (ch) = 7        4
lv 5: 6 + 1 (ch) = 7        4
lv 6: 6 + 1 (ch) = 7        3
lv 7: 6 + 1 (ch) = 7        3
lv 8: 5 + 0 (ch) = 5        3
lv 9: 3 + 0 (ch) = 3        2

[b]SPELL LIST:[/b]
[i]* denotes spell compendium[/i]
[I]& denotes bonus spells frm scor[/I]

[u][b]0 level: 
Acid Splash
Detect magic
Detect Poison
Disrupt Undead
Light
Mend
Prestidigitation
* Electric Jolt 
Ray of frost

[u][b]1st level:[/u] 00000 000[/b]
Expeditious retreat
Feather Fall
* low light vision 
magic missile
* Persistent Blade 
& Mage Armor

[u][b]2nd level:[/u] 00000 000[/b]
* Body of the Sun
dark vision
Melf's acid arrow 
* Orb of Acid, Lesser
& Resist energy
spider climb

[u][b]3rd level:[/u] 00000 000[/b]
* Acid breath
* Disrupt undead, Gtr
fireball
haste

[U][B]4 th level[/B][/U]: 00000 00
* force missiles
* Orb of Acid
shape stone
Stone skin

[B][U]5 th level[/U][/B]: 00000 00
Fabricate
Planar Tolerance
Reciprocal Gyre
Vitriolic Sphere

[B][U]6 th level[/U][/B]: 00000 00
Acid Storm 
Elemental Body III
Heroism, Greater
 
[B][U]7 th level:[/U][/B] 00000 00
Banishment
Limited Wish 
Mage’s Sword 

[B][U]8 th level: [/U][/B]00000 
* Form of the Dragon III
Polar Ray
Sunburst

[B][U]9 th level:[/U][/B] 000
Absorption
Shapechange

[b][u]Special:[/u][/b]
Acidic Splatter Feat (Comp mage pg 37):
 with a 2nd lev or higher acid spell you can summon a  glob 
of acid that has a range of 5 ft / lv of highest  spell available 
and does 1d6 per level of spell  available (at spell level 2 or 
higher)
```
*EQUIPMENT:* budget: 1,000,000

```
[u]                           [b]cost      weight[/b][/u]
Shirt of the Jade Dragon     97,500 gp    1.0 lb 
Rapier, +5, speed, keen     162,320 gp    2.0 lb 
club, +3, undead bane        32,300 gp    3.0 lb 
l. bow, mighty +2 comp,      18,600 gp    4.0 lb 
+3, distance
 Arrows, mw *50 (7 gp ea)       350 gp    5.0 lb 
 Arrows,+1 *30 (47 gp ea)     1,410 gp    3.0 lb 
 Arrows,+2 *20 (167gp ea)     3,340 gp    2.0 lb 
 Arrows, +2 *50 (367gp ea)    8,350 gp    2.0 lb
 Arrows, +2 arrows x 50       8,350 gp 5.0 lb
 Arrows, adamentine +2 x 50  11,000 gp 5.0 lb
dagger, +3, returning x2    100,604 gp    1.0 lb
[U]S. Sword +3, spell storing    32,310 gp    2.0 lb [/U]
total 1 : ..................452,984 GP

Heward's magical mystycal equipment sack
[sblock=info]
Type B: Magical: This can take the form of a Hewards Handy Haversack or 
Bag of Holding. It's [B][U][I]carrying capacity is halved.[/I][/U][/B] It works 
like a nonmagical Bag of Random Stuff, but there is [U]no price limit to 
the gear that can be pulled out (Provided it is not magical)[/U]. Any 
'[B]special' gear (Special/Alchemical substances/items, Special materials, 
etc) costs twice as much.[/B] (IE an Adamantine Battleaxe would cost 6020 
to pull out of the bag, or alchemist's fire for 40gp. ) 
Cost: Base bag + amount inside. 
[/sblock]


[b]SPECIAL MAGICAL ITEMS:[/b] 
infinite scrollcase                      2800gp
% denotes  made by himself
[sblock]
1. - 5. % magic missile cl 5 X 5       62.5 gp 
6. - 10. % fireball cl 10 X 5        1875 gp 
11. - 15. lightning bolt cl 10 x 5   3750 gp
16. - 20. % acid arrow cl 9 x5       1125 gp 
21. - 25. clairvoy/clairaud cl 5 x 5 1875 gp
26. - 30. remove curse cl 7 x5       3500 gp
31. - 35. % stoneskin cl 7 x5        1750 gp 
36. - 40. Black Tentacles cl 7 x5    3500 gp
41. - 45. % Stone Shape cl 7 x5      1750 gp 
46. Break Enchantment cl 9           1125 gp
47. Dismissal cl 9                   1125 gp
48. % Fabricate cl 9                  562.5 gp 
49. 
[U]50. Tongues cl 5                      375 gp[/U]
total 2                            25,175 gp [285 xp]
[/sblock] 

Ring of Protection +3                 18,000 gp  Body slot: Ring 1    
Ring of Sustenance                     2,500 gp  Body slot: Ring 2
Sepulchral vest                        2,000 gp * Body slot: Torso; mic pg 133
Gauntlet's of Ghost touch              4,000 gp * Body slot: Hands; MIC PG
Choker of Life Protection             14,000 gp * Body slot: Throat; MIC PG
headband of  mental superiority      144,000 GP Body slot: head
+6 to int, wis, cha  
Belt of Belt of Physical Perfection  144,000 GP body slot: waist
+6 to str, dex, con                          
Heward's Handy Haversack               2,000 gp 
Quiver of "E"                          1,800 gp 
bag of holding type I                  2,500 gp 
Cloak of resistance +5                25,000 gp Body slot: shoulders
bracers natural armor +5              50,000 gp Body slot: arms
[U]Boots of striding & springing          5,500 gp  Body slot: feet[/U]
total 3                              392,800 gp

[b]Potions[/b]
% Haste cl 10 X 5                3750 gp
% Spider climb cl 10 X 5         2500 gp
% resist energy cl 10 X 5        2500 gp
% darkvision cl 10 X 5           2500 gp
% featherfall cl 5 X 5            625 gp
% expeditious retreat cl 5 X 5    625 gp
cure mod wounds X5               1500  
blur                              300 (B)
[U]Blessed Bandage X15               150 [/U]
total 4                        14,450 gp [500 xp]

[B]wands:[/B]
% body of the sun charges: 50/50   cl 3 2250 gp
% acid arrow charges: 50/50   cl 3      2250 gp
lightning bolt charges: 50/50   cl 5   11250 gp 
Fireball charges: 50/50   cl 10       22,500 gp
[U]% force missiles charges: 50/50   cl 7 10500 gp[/U]
total5:                               48,750 gp [600 xp]

total 1       452,984 gp
total 2        25,175 gp
total 3       392,800 gp
total 4        14,450 gp
[U]total 5        48,750 gp[/U]
spent so far: 934,159 gp

[u][i][b]Cash:[/b][/u][/i]   65,841 gp   

Master list of equipment special features:

-Bag of holding Type I wt:15lb cap:250lb 30 ft^3 
 carrieing: xxx gp (xx lb)

-Ring of Sustance no need for food or  water,
 need 2 hours of sleep for  8 hours of rest

-Quiver of Ellohanna Always weighs 2 lb
 [u]Area 51:[/u]holds 60 arrows, carries +1 arrows and +2 arrows
 [u]Area 2:[/u] holds 18 javelins, Holds Rapier 
 [u]Area 3:[/u] holds 6 bows, holds bow 

-Heward's Handy Haversack 2 X 20 lb cap, 1 X 80 lb cap
 weight: 5 lb, item you want is always on top,
 no AOA to retrieve items

-Short sword +1, spell storing  (disrupt undead, gtr)

-Club +1, undead bane: extra +2 and +2d6 dam vs undead 

-Rapier +1, Keen: Doubles critical threat range

-Shirt of protection +5 enchantment; shadow and silent gtr [+15 stealth]

-Sepulchral vest +5 Sacred bonus on saves
  vs undead effects for 1 round, 3 times  per day

-Gauntlets of Ghost Fighting: Ignore miss chance of 
 incorporeal undead, +1d6 dam vs  incorporeal undead
 Magic item comp pg.  216

-Choker of Life Protection: Negate 3 neg levls per day, 
 +2 Ac vs undead, detect undead at will (for possessing two pieces of 
 set) Magic item comp pg. 216
 
-Blessed bandage: immediately stabilize target

-Boots spring and stride: + 10' movement and 
 +5 competence bonus to jump
```


[sblock=history/background]
general gnotes phoar gnou:

The holy order of the Dragon Warriors
*"We hunt the things that go bump in the night"*​
Born to a prostitute near the docks, he was mostly raised by the madam
of the house...she always taught him how to be shrewd, but still with a 
kindness that she showed to her girls. When his mother was working the 
streets on night, she ran afoul of some Dormithian slavers who were trying 
to take her on a more permanent basis, killing her when she resisted 
fiercely. The madam heard of the incursion and sent her own posse after 
them with the words, "I'll teach them filthy slavers to keep their thievin' 
hands off my girls!"

This pretty much started an overnight war between Domithian and this one 
house...he escaped when the fight was brought to his 'home' and as the 
building burned, he was slipped out the window to the streets to escape
...as far as he knows, he alone survived....

living off the streets as a youngster means only one occupation: thievery. 
Food snatching that led to pickpocketing and cutpurses which led to plain 
street thuggery. he found a gang that dealt in those things, but once again 
there was competition for territory and before he knew it there was a war 
going on, where all of his gang were killed or assimilated save him...once again
 he alone escaped...

Still needing to eat, so he started honing his skills in a more refined form of 
thievery: cat burgler...case a joint, raid it, sell the stuff and then eat for the 
first time in a week! that is untill he cased the wrong joint...that of the home 
and temple of Ge' Chen, sorcerer of the dragon blood (read: dragon heratage 
feats)

This kind old man actually caught the young lad sneaking in his home while he 
had just sat down to a quiet evening of rice and vedgies...he followed him 
about his house watching how he showed the greatest respect for every thing 
there, with the exception of the occasionallly snached easy to sell trinket. as the 
young Gerard was redeaying his exit, the ancient master spoke up, asking him 
what he wanted with the items he had taken. He answered with the only thing 
that came to mind: the truth. With an audible gulp, he spoke of eating, bathing 
and maybe some new clothing. The kind old master was wise so he invited him 
to join him for food at his table. While Gerard ate and talked, the wise old master 
listened and watched...the boy was showing strange, yet familiar actions...while 
only a lit candle was all that illuminated the room Gerard was able to see even 
in the dimmist of light available (low light vision)

this was only possible by the talent of a sorcerer like himself. He explaind many 
things to gerard about what he might have experienced and invited him to stay 
the night...with the promise that he will let him keep the trinkets taken if he would 
listen to master Chen in the morning with the audince of one other. the next 
morning found gerard hampton under warm blankes and a roof over his head. a 
cup of hot tea, warm bath water, soap and clean clothing were in the room as 
well....the smell of breakfast was just starting to reach his nostrols and that is 
all it took for him to get moving.

tea drank, body washed and clean clothing donned, he walks to the commen room 
to find master chen and one other (none other then Wyace himself). the old master 
spoke of in born energies that can be shaped and called forth, that he wanted to 
help him under stand them and to hone his abilities and at the cost of just learning.
Gerard was hooked...friendships were made over time, and he actually saw the old 
master as his father...over the past year Gerard has now learned how to use those 
energies, but the old hatred was always just under the surface...the Dormithian 
slavers would pay someday...

Through time Gerard had been doing work for master Chen, every thing from 
cleaning to running errands. Master Chen has been teaching Gerard the virtues 
of objectivity and patience. Finally the day came when Master Chen thought 
the young lad good enough to let in on the secrets of the monastery. He was 
told of secrets of activity that former students have been doing: hunting down 
and destroying undead through out the land, using the skills of scorcerous 
arcane and being able to handle weapons. As they are not part of any temple, 
they do not draw attention to themselves from the more nasty undead, but still 
none the less powerful in their own right.

Many training missions and actual missions later, Gerard has become a trust 
worthy opponent to the undead, having gifts bestowed upon him and rescuing 
may artifacts from the depths of tombs controlled by the undead that he has
hunted and destroyed. 

Keeping his actual work a secret had to have a cover, so he chose the 
profession of a mild mannered Haberdasher in the employ of a clothier who was 
in the know of his actual connections. As part of his discipleship int the secret 
order of dragon warriors was to design a mundane item of great skill. His shirt is 
his masterpiece. It is silk, hangs loosely almost to his knees. within the weave are 
what looks to be draconic scales and on each scale are a myriad of complex 
arcane symbols. The silk shirt is that of a dark jade color, much like that of the 
patina of an ancient copper vessel with embroidered symbols of flat black.

When in public he always has his rapier and his dagger on hand, and a black silk turbin.

General information:

escaped the fires of his past and the cold of the lonley nights by the spell Endure elements

[/sblock]

spell descriptions:

Material components and arcane foci:

special items in haver sack:
1 [20 lb]:
+2 arrows x 50                         
adamentine arrows +2 x 50     

2 [80 lb]:



3 [20 lb]:
large chunk of phosphorescent moss
50 small candels
2 silvered daggers
Powdered rhubarb leaf 
adder’s stomach
Focus: A dart.
a dried carrot
glass sculpture of a humanoid (worth 50 gp).
bat guano
sulfur
licorice root
soft clay
granite and diamond dust worth 5000 gp
tiny closed loop of copper wire
A tiny glass vial filled with aqua regia (Nitric Acid)
A flask of acid (10 gp) 00000 00000 00000
sealed vial of tindertwigs 00000 00000
sealed vial of water 00000 00000
sealed vial of earth 00000 00000
sealed vial of air 00000 00000
pouch of 1500 gp diamonds 00000 00000
miniature platinum sword with a grip and pommel of copper and zinc x 2 [500 gp]
a pouch of dragon scales (copper 00000 00000 00000)
white ceramic cone x 2
sunstone, powdered 10 gp 00000 00000 00000
tinder twigs 00000 00000 00000
jade circlet worth 1,500 gp X 2


----------



## Jemal (Sep 27, 2012)

FIRST, Questions: 
Thank you Kinem, I forgot that.  I'll add it to the creation post, but 
HP will be as follows: d4=3, d6=5, d8=6, d10=8, d12=10. (80% rounded closest)

  [MENTION=63746]Binder Fred[/MENTION]: it pains me to hear someone say that's the only good monk path, Most of my characters are fairly ass-kicking monks, and I haven't played a psion since 2e.
BUT if you would like to try Psion, I'll likely allow it.  I don't have access to complete psionics, so I'll have to find the class and look it over.

Now for those who've posted characters : 
I don't have time to go over every last number fully right now (Especially since much is liable to change), but a few things that stood out at quick glance:

  [MENTION=51271]Voda Vosa[/MENTION] 
Ogres are actually 6 levels - 4 Giant HD, +2 lvl adjust, so you'd be Ogre 4(+2la) Fighter 14.
If you need Fighter 16 to qualify for a feat, I'll allow the ogre levels to stack for that, so you'd be effective fgtr 18 to qualify for fgtr feats.
Also, re: Sendesemcal - Yay an intelligent item already!  However, as I noted in creation rules, you do not get to pick the items purpose unless you crafted it yourself - which, as a straight fighter, seems implausible. 


			
				me said:
			
		

> DM picks the personality, Languages, and special purpose/power UNLESS the character made the item with the appropriate Item Creation Feat. (Don't worry I wont screw you over.).




Enhancement bonuses don't stack.  
You have Belt of str +6, Ioun stone of str +2, and scrolls of bull's strength.  None of those stack with each other, so you'd still only have a total +6 enhancement to str if you use all of them combined. (6 from belt which is your highest)  Not sure if you're buying backups, or just overlooked that.
Same with the amulet of health +6 and Ioun stone of con +2.

Gloves do not match a defensive body slot, so putting Natural Armour on them would cost more.  I'd suggest a vest or robe slot for the natural armour.


Next
  [MENTION=49929]Scott DeWar[/MENTION]
First thing to say is that if you're playing a fighter-mage, I would highly recommend the Complete Mage PRC : Abjurant Champion
can't repeat it fully here, but its a 5 lvl class with full bab, full casting, AND special powers each level.  It's E.Knight's big brother.
The only requirement you don't already make is Combat Casting feat.

Also if you're going for a finesse fighter, I would suggest using the Swashbuckler from complete.. warrior? Adventurer? One of those..
Instead of fgt 2/rogue 2, Swashbuckler 3/fighter 1?  You loose evasion, trapfinding, 1d6 sneak, and a few skill points, but gain 1 bab, some hp, and add your int to dmg... with both weapons if dual wielding.
You loose one fighter bonus feat but gain w.finesse for free, so that's an even trade off, and the evasion can be regained via the ring for 20K (Or 30 if you add it onto something existing).  The trapfinding is useful if you really want to be the party rogue, but is more suited to someone who's centered more around scouting.

Personally, I'd suggest: Swash3/Sorc6/Fighter1/E.Knight4/Abj Champ5
This would up your bab by 1, won't change your Casting ability, and what i noted above under swashbuckler.

I notice you don't have more than about 9 ranks in any of yours skills.. why?

Equipment: 
Where are the Choker of Life Protection, Gloves of Ghost Touch, and Sepulchral vest from? 
Potions of Healthful rest and blessed bandage - I assume these spells are also from spell compendium?

The belt and headband of stat boosting that you're using would actually be priced at 144,000 GP each.  I would suggest splitting them apart instead of stacking them all up like that (That's only required in pathfinder, in D&D You can have separate stats on separate items, like gloves of dex, Belt of str, Amulet of con, etc.)

On that note, I notice that like VV you have bulls strength AND a +6 str item.. they do not stack, so unless you're planning on using bull strength on someone else, I'd suggest replacing it. (And everybody who could benefit from bull strength will more than likely have a str boost item already at this level, so..)

SPELLCASTING: 
I'll have to get hold of a spell compendium to check those spells before allowing them, it's not on the 'pre-approved list'.

Not sure what you mean by *Add 8 to caster level effects*
Your CL should be 18 : 6 sorc, 8 from e.knight, 4 practiced spellcaster
and you should have the same spellcasting (spells known/spells per day) as a 14th lvl sorc (6 sorc 8 E.Knight), having access to up to 7th lvl spells.


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## Voda Vosa (Sep 27, 2012)

Jemal said:
			
		

> Ogres are actually 6 levels - 4 Giant HD, +2 lvl adjust, so you'd be Ogre 4(+2la) Fighter 14.
> If you need Fighter 16 to qualify for a feat, I'll allow the ogre levels to stack for that, so you'd be effective fgtr 18 to qualify for fgtr feats.




I think I don't need the levels. I also think I overlooked just the number, the stats I think are for a 14 fighter. 



			
				Jemal said:
			
		

> Also, re: Sendesemcal - Yay an intelligent item already! However, as I noted in creation rules, you do not get to pick the items purpose unless you crafted it yourself - which, as a straight fighter, seems implausible.



Yes, I chose that already cuz I was going to make a background and work it around that way. I envision it being a cranky old sorceror whispering things like. *"I think an axe in the forehead would be an exquisite accessory for that fine wizard, won't you agree?"* I based the powers mainly reflecting his sorcerous quality and desire to kill other arcane practitioners, who chained his soul in the central ring of the spiked chain.




			
				Jemal said:
			
		

> Enhancement bonuses don't stack.
> You have Belt of str +6, Ioun stone of str +2, and scrolls of bull's strength. None of those stack with each other, so you'd still only have a total +6 enhancement to str if you use all of them combined. (6 from belt which is your highest) Not sure if you're buying backups, or just overlooked that.
> Same with the amulet of health +6 and Ioun stone of con +2.



That's me being rusty on 3.5- Disregard me. I'll pick something else.



			
				Jemal said:
			
		

> Gloves do not match a defensive body slot, so putting Natural Armour on them would cost more. I'd suggest a vest or robe slot for the natural armour.



And that way it won't cost extra?


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## Binder Fred (Sep 28, 2012)

Jemal said:


> It pains me to hear someone say that's the only good monk path, Most of my characters are fairly ass-kicking monks, and I haven't played a psion since 2e.



 That's not quite what I said there (there was a "most", and a "cool" (which is different, but not unrelated to "kick-ass" ). I'm definitively going to do a side-by-side 20th level monk vs, say, 10/10 Monk/Psionic Fist (which is from the Expanded Psionics Handbook, by the way, where it's called "Fist of Zuoken" ("Psionic Fists" is its SRD name)) before I decide..

But I'm looking at it now, and there *are* a number of cool things the class allows you to do (I like _Empathic Transfer_, which allows you to take the hurt of another, fits nicely with the type of personnality I'm building up for my monk, and _Expansion_/size growth has possibilities (though maybe it steps too close to VV's concept? (But then again, think of it: a **Colossal** dwarven monk!))). I think I'm most ennamored with the Elocator's _Scorn the Earth_ power though. With a little re-skinning, that would make for very cinematic "Light Body" tricks (walk on water, branch/bambo running, etc). Definitivey going to be incorporating that one...


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## Scott DeWar (Sep 28, 2012)

is there a feat in 3.5 that equates the pathfinder's Arcane Armor Training ??


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## Binder Fred (Sep 28, 2012)

Just brainstorming a little on our shared background tonight, let me know what you think. 

So from VV's background we have his goblinoids and dwarf alliance (does it have a name VV?). 

There is also the "cattle kingdom", let's call it Rauland, which means The Green Place. It's your classical multi-species PC country (Human, elves, halflings, etc) -- not coincidentally since this is where most of the PC's come from and where Gerard's home city, the country's capital, is set (though probably on the  other side of the country from the cattles of VV's description). Name for the city Scott? Rauland is protected on two sides by the previosuly mentionned dwarven mountain ranges, and faces the gulf of Ploohy on the other.

We also have an evil/adversarial "Draught casting" country which I'm suggesting we call Kadrath. Kadrath borders Rauland to the west and is/was in fact a relatively recently (less than a 100 years) acquired principality of the greater Queendom of Dormith -  source of the "Dormithian slavers" of Scott's background, don't you know - whose capital and main holdings reside on the other side of the ocean from Rauland. 

I had this prepared from another game, so we might as well use it for Dormith if you guys want (?).

[sblock= Greater queendom of Dormith]The greater queendom of Dormith is a multicultural/multi-ethnic grouping of principalities set on the western shores of the home continent. Long ago, mighty dragonborn warriors set out from their cliff-side forts and conquered fearsome tribes of halfing, orcs, elves, goblins, dwarves, trolls, isolated kalashtar enclaves and tribes of smaller giants, unifying them, stiring them throughout the young empire as needed, giving them "civilization". Those were the Conquering Ages of Dormith, which were followed by the Age of Consolidation (also known as the Flowering Age), the Age of Internal Strife and, finally, the current Emerging Age of local, and then worldwide expantion.

Dragonborn rule Dormith to this day. During the ages they have grown in absolute number but diminshed in overall percentage, so that while they *are* the only nobility, the sum-total of actual land owners (as opposed to tenants or long term leasers) AND the highest ranked military officiers, the entirety of lower ranks in their armies is in fact composed of other races, as are the increasingly wealthy merchant and crafter classes. In terms of organization, each significant agglomaration is ruled/administered by a dragonborn Mayor and his clutch, who answers to one of the thirteen regional Duke (usually also the Mayor of the regional capital) who in term answers to the Queen (also the Mayor of the capital city). Queendom rulers, mostly female with rare exceptions, are usually combat arcanists, able to wield the Orb of Chaos, the queendom's iconic and most devastating artifact.

And, yes, *of course* they use dragons and earth drakes as war mounts. [/sblock]
Dorith has taken over Kadrath completely, putting in place their own dragonborn leadership-based system and begining massive public works programs to bring the "backwards" country up to the Queendom's standards: aqueducs, public offices, barracks, stadiums, roads, lots and lots of roads. This has of course driven the demand for cheap labor (read slaves) through the roof! Hence the now prevalent "Dorithian" slavers.

This is where my character comes in: Ur of Greenhill, adept of the closed fist, master of the empty hand. I'm seeing his as a hill dwarf masson/stonecutter (_Rocky hills. He can see them in his dreams, covered in abundant grass, sharp peaks of snow and mist looming in the background. Next to him is his family's house, low to the ground as befit a dwarven dwelling, its sloped timber roof rising to a far-away point. He can almost touch the gritty texture of the field stones piled halfway up the ground-floor and smell the smell of the sheep, already in their wooden enclosure for the night..._). 

Then comes the raid (while travelling to a nearby town?) and then semingly endless slavery on the work crews of Kardrath (_Slavery's manacled jaws slavering in endless hunger. Pitiless blades shaving at his soul, unrelanting weights ground round and round till somehow the grinding became polish, the blades stopped cutting and began to carve. Ur is now a believer, as was his father before him and his mother's grandfather. But those believers frown on his faith for in this he did not follow the path of his ancestors. Prompted by his teachers in faith, slaves like him, he choose the teachings of Brohym over more ancient wisdom. Choose personal perfection over the gift of oneself, the shaping of chaos instead of its eradication._)

Then, and I haven't had time to write this bit in any details yet, but then Ur was freed by the adventuring party. He was a little nuts at this point, frankly, having integrated the basic tenets of slavery into a near insane drive to give of himself until there was nothing left. He therefore latched onto the main protagonist of his rescue and proceeded to *serve* him or her with a vengeance (I would *love* for one of the other PC to volonteer for this role <pretty please?>; strong and instant connections, always good storytelling tools... If not, it can always be an ex-member, either deceased or retired <sigh>). He's loosened up a lot since then, thanks in no small part to the friendships he's formed in the company and the guidance/patience/kicks in the butt of him or her that freed him ("Twice now," as he's won't to say).

Then Ur adventures with the party until the "Draught" adventure rolls along, at which point Tutek joins up as well. The en- I mean <drum roll, please>: THE BEGINING.

*Note: *Just sugestions, all. The geography of the continent and the nature of the "Queendom" in perticular can be entirely changed to suit without affecting the three character-stories we have so far (Tutek, Gerard and half of Ur's).

*Random thought:* Necromantic powers/phenomena are much more common in Rauland  and Kadrath (on this entire continent?) then elsewhere (justifying Gerard's carreer choice in spades). Why? Built on the ruins/graveyards of a much older (non-human?) civilization? What killed them? Was it the first time this armaggedon happened (multiple, recuring, intelligently guided(??%) mass extinctions? Leading to layered, interdigitated mausoleum-ruins of various civilizations)?

*Random thought 2:* How about a flying wagon pulled by magical rams as our groups prefered mode of transport? Re-skinned magic carpet or the like.  Not married to the rams either.


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## Voda Vosa (Sep 28, 2012)

I like what mister [MENTION=63746]Binder Fred[/MENTION] suggests. I left most  names blank for other players to be able to fit within the general scenario if they wanted to. 
Yay for shared backgrounds!


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## Shayuri (Sep 28, 2012)

One question...races in Pathfinder are very different than in 3.5...I'm assuming we're using 3.5 stats, but I figured I'd ask just to make sure.

Right now I'm considering a draco-sorceror...perhaps with Dragon Disciple, though that would be a reduction in spellcasting that is unattractive. And it still rewards a melee build I'm not sure I want, especially with an eldritch knight in the group.

Another possibility is a more fey concept. I do those a lot, but it's only because I never get to play one for long. 

Something more planar might be fun too. Having a connection to other plane seems topical to the game's theme...


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## Scott DeWar (Sep 28, 2012)

I am tempted to go the cestial scor. myself.

And yeah for shared backgrounds!! I will read the whole thing l8r.


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## Shayuri (Sep 28, 2012)

Mew. 

Maybe I'll do an oracle then...no need to have two sorcerors, an eldritch knight and a warlock. That's a lot of concentrated arcane power.


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## Scott DeWar (Sep 28, 2012)

heh, wouldn't it be interesting if my cestial scorcery was affiliated with your oracular connection?


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## Shayuri (Sep 28, 2012)

That would be interesting indeed!

HMMM.

I must ponder on that. Perhaps one of us is aasimar? That'd cost a precious, precious caster level though...but if a 3.5e human doesn't get a bonus to a stat so...

HMMMM.

What do you think?


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## Scott DeWar (Sep 28, 2012)

Shayuri said:


> That would be interesting indeed!
> 
> HMMM.
> 
> ...




we like!

now, re: Complete Mage PRC : Abjurant Champion

i am reading this right now.


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## Shayuri (Sep 28, 2012)

Well no, I mean...what ideas do you have? 

I still haven't decided what kind of oracle to make. Still looking at options.

There's some very cool ones, especially when I look at the level 20 capstone abilities...


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## Scott DeWar (Sep 28, 2012)

those are nice.


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## kinem (Sep 29, 2012)

*Braham Bahli*

Braham Bahli, male human warlock 20, CG; 200,000 xp

[sblock=stats]HD 20d6+140, hp 241; dead at -24

AC 42 (+6 dex, +9 armor, +5 deflection, +5 natural, +6 shield, +1 insight), touch 22, ff 30

Str 16(22)/+6
Dex 16(22)/+6
Con 18(24)/+7
Int 12(18)/+4
Wis 10(16)/+3
Cha 23(34)/+12

saves Fort +19, Reflex +18, Will +21; move 30'; BAB +15; init +6
grapple +21 (+28 to resist grapple w/freedom of movement)

attack mace +26/+21/+16 melee (1d8+11, 20/x2, cold iron, +2d6 vs evil)
or unarmed strike +21/+16/+11 melee (1d3+6 nonlethal, 20/x2, draws AOO vs armed)
or luckblade +19/+14/+9 melee (1d6+6, 19/x2)

eldritch blast +21 ranged touch (11d6 + EE + BS; 20/x2, 60' range, +24 vs SR, can take 10)
or mace + hideous blow +26 melee (1d8+11  + eldritch blast, 20/x2, +2d6 vs evil)

Feats: Ability Focus (eldritch blast), Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, Arcane Mastery (can take 10 on caster level checks), Sudden Extend (1/day), Sudden Maximize (1/day), Sudden Empower (1/day), Extra Invocation (eldritch chain)

warlock:
The warlock’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Disguise (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (the planes) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), and Use Magic Device (Cha).

4 x 23 skill points: 
Skills (ranks/total): Bluff 1/13, Concentration 23/30, Diplomacy(cc) 1/13, Spellcraft 17/21, Use Magic Device 17/29, Perception(cc) 11/14, Stealth(cc) 1/8, Knowledge [arcana 1/5, religion 1/5, planes 1/5], Sense Motive 3/6, Perform (cc)(dance) 1/13

languages: Common, ?

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Warlocks are proficient with all simple weapons. They are proficient with light armor but not with shields.
Because the somatic components required for warlock invocations are relatively simple, a warlock can use any of his invocations while wearing light armor without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance.

The save DC for an invocation (if it allows a save) is 10 + equivalent spell level + the warlock’s Charisma modifier.
Since spell-like abilities are not actually spells, a warlock cannot benefit from the Spell Focus feat. He can, however, benefit from the Ability Focus feat (see page 303 of the Monster Manual), as well as from feats that emulate metamagic effects for spell-like abilities, such as Quicken Spell-Like Ability and Empower Spell-Like Ability (see pages 303 and 304 of the Monster Manual).

Eldritch Blast (Sp): 11d6. An eldritch blast is a ray with a range of 60 feet. It is a ranged touch attack that affects a single target, allowing no saving throw. An eldritch blast deals 1d6 points of damage at 1st level and increases in power as the warlock rises in level. An eldritch blast is the equivalent of a spell whose level is equal to one-half the warlock’s class level (round down), with a minimum spell level of 1st and a maximum of 9th when a warlock reaches 18th level or higher.
An eldritch blast is subject to spell resistance, although the Spell Penetration feat and other effects that improve caster level checks to overcome spell resistance also apply to eldritch blast. An eldritch blast deals half damage to objects.

Detect Magic (Sp): As the spell at will.

Damage Reduction (Su): 5/cold iron.

Deceive Item (Ex): When making a Use Magic Device check, a warlock can take 10 even if distracted or threatened.

Fiendish Resilience (Su): Once per day, as a free action, he can enter a state that lasts for 2 minutes: fast healing 5.

Energy Resistance (Su): He has resistance 10 against cold and fire.

A warlock can apply an eldritch essence (EE) invocation and a blast shape (BS) invocation to the same blast.

Invocations: 3 least, 3+2 lesser, 3 greater, 3 dark; EE, BS, or Other (O)
least:
Eldritch Spear (BS, 250' blast)
See the Unseen (see invisible and darkvision, 24 h)
Hideous Blow (BS, as standard action, add blast to melee attack)

lesser:
Fell Flight (fly 30', good, 24 h)
Curse of Despair (+22 touch, bestow curse, Will DC 28 negates but target still takes -1 to attack for 1 min)
Charm (60', charm monster, up to 20 days, Will neg DC 28; target gets +5 on save if under threat)
Eldritch Chain (BS, if hit initial target, may attempt to hit another target within 30’ of initial target. If the blast hits again, may attempt another, up to 4 secondary targets. Secondary targets take ½ damage. No creature may be struck more than once by the “chain”.)

greater:
Devour Magic (Greater Dispelling by touch, gain 5 temp hp/spell level dispelled, last 1 min; can't use on own invocations)
Vitriolic Blast (EE, acid damage, no SR, +2d6 damage for 4 rounds)
Noxious blast (EE, Fort DC 33 or target nauseated 1 round (house ruled))

dark:
Binding Blast (EE, from CMage; Will DC 33 or target stunned 1 round; mind-affecting effect)
Eldritch Doom (BS, blast affects all designated enemies within 20', no attack roll but Reflex half DC 33)
Retributive Invisibility (6th; Greater Invisibility, self only, 20 rounds(D); if dispelled, shock wave, creatures within 20' take 2d6 damage + stunned 1 round (Fort DC 28 for half and no stun))

Equipment: 1,000,000 gp:

cloak of resistance +5, 25k
headband of int +6 and cha +6 and disguise, 92.7k
amulet of con +6 and wis +6 and natural armor +5 and greater fell power (+2d6 to eldritch blast), 192k
belt of str +6 and dex +6, 90k

+5 glamered mithral chain shirt (ACP 0, max dex +6), 28.8 k
+5 mithral buckler, 26.015k

ring of protection +5 and sustenance, 53.75k
ring of freedom of movement (+7 to resist grapple), 40k
ioun stone, dusty rose prism (+1 insight to AC)

+5 holy cold iron heavy mace (1d8 b, 20/x2), 100.324k
luckblade (+2 short sword (1d6 p, 19/x2, martial weapon), +1 luck to saves, reroll any roll 1/day), 22.06k

Weapon Cord, 1 sp
Weapon cords are 2-foot-long leather straps that attach your weapon to your wrist. If you drop your weapon or are disarmed, you can recover it as a swift action, and it never moves any further away from you than an adjacent square. However, you cannot switch to a different weapon without first untying the cord (a full-round action) or cutting it (a move action or an attack, hardness 0, 0 hp). Unlike a locked gauntlet, you can still use a hand with a weapon cord, though a dangling weapon may interfere with finer actions. (Warlock invocations OK.)

boots of teleportation (3/day), 49k
cube of force, 62k
tome of Leadership and Influence (read, +5 cha), 137.5k

silversheen (4 doses, 1 hr each), 1k

wand of silence (50 charges), 4.5k
wand of cure serious wounds (50 charges, 3d8+5), 11.25k
wand of major image (50 charges), 11.25k
scroll of heroism (x6, +2 morale to att, saves, skills, 30 min), 2.25k
scroll of glibness (x2), 1.05k

handy haversack, 2k (Type B bag of random stuff; 1.1k nonmagical stuff inside)

portal to the bazaar, 20k (Type C bag of random stuff; items at 110% price; 22.35k store credit)

100 gp, 9 sp

Equipment: "Bag of Random Stuff".
Type A: NonMagical : This is a normal backpack that just has a lot of stuff crammed into it. It cannot be used to store anything, but whenever you need a mundane piece of gear worth 100gp or less, you can reach in and find it *Assuming it can fit* (Full round action to dig around). Deduct the cost of the item from the amount stored in the bag.
Cost: 10 GP + however much 'stuff' you want to be able to pull out of it (Can be 'reloaded' at any store).
Type B: Magical: This can take the form of a Hewards Handy Haversack or Bag of Holding. It's carrying capacity is halved. It works like a nonmagical Bag of Random Stuff, but there is no price limit to the gear that can be pulled out (Provided it is not magical). Any 'special' gear (Special/Alchemical substances/items, Special materials, etc) costs twice as much. (IE an Adamantine Battleaxe would cost 6020 to pull out of the bag, or alchemist's fire for 40gp. )
Cost: Base bag + amount inside.
Type C: Portal to the Bazaar : This is reserved for High level/Epic games. This seemingly ordinary bag is actually a dimensional portal to the Bazaar, an entire plane full of merchants. The owner has an account with a trusted (Well as much as those guys can be trusted) Merchant in the Bazaar, and can use the bag to buy or sell items without needing to travel. Any purchaseable item that can fit through the 4'X4' Opening (Including magic items) may be purchased at standard Market Price +10%.
Likewise, the merchant will buy any goods placed inside at 50% standard Market Price. They will be automatically and correctly Appraised. (There's demand for practically everything in the Bazaar, so he can resell it). The Portal's owner will have his account credited the amount. The owner can also add to his account by simply depositing money straight into the bag. There are no refunds however, only store credit.
Cost: 20,000 + Account balance.[/sblock]

[sblock=Description]Braham Bahli is a man from the desert, thought to carry genie blood. He is tan and bearded, about 6' tall. The only gods he follows are the four genie gods of the elements (Air, Earth, Fire, and Water) and this only because he feels they are his kin.

His career has been spent opposing tyrants and less organized monsters alike. He became famous for his part in overthrowing the man known as "King Devon the Devil". Through dangerous adventures, his power grew quickly.

He tries to aid worthy causes when he can, but as he's getting older, he increasingly has felt a desire to travel and see new things.

Though he's not native to the region, Braham was among the party who fought in Kadrath to stop the magical drought on Rauland.[/sblock]

Note:
To avoid MAD, I didn't take Dark One's Own Luck (overpowered bonus to save) or Word of Changing (polymorph other, a save-or-lose ability) or Noxious Blast (save-or-lose) or Eldritch Glaive (full blast attack).


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## Scott DeWar (Sep 29, 2012)

Shayuri said:


> Well no, I mean...what ideas do you have?
> 
> I still haven't decided what kind of oracle to make. Still looking at options.
> 
> There's some very cool ones, especially when I look at the level 20 capstone abilities...




sorry, prepping for a table top game tomorrow, my mental rescorses are being greatly divide.

What  if we were of the same evil fighting organization that trained Gerard? I took a looky look at ability adjustment and saw the +2 cha, wis.


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## Jemal (Sep 29, 2012)

Quick note from work : using standard 3.5 races exception might give half elves a boost if anybody wants to try one for though reasons (Ive always thought they were a bit weak


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## Jemal (Sep 29, 2012)

weird phone.. double post 50 minutes apart? lol..


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## Shayuri (Sep 29, 2012)

Kinem, how'd you get those attribute scores with just 30 point buy?

Scott, let me think on that. I need to decide on an oracle mystery...I may not be a crusader for Good, but instead embrace a particular cause or something similar...

Jemal...what do you think about the Summoner class? If you decide to allow it, would you rule it full spellcasting (19th level) or not (20th level)? Its spell progression doesn't have 9 levels...but they have access to 9th level abilities as class abilities...and some of their top level spells are from the 8th and 9th level portions of full caster lists.


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## Jemal (Sep 29, 2012)

Shayuri - It's alright, but it would indeed be a lvl 19 class.

VV - As I said, PC's will have no control over Intelligent Item Personality, Purpose, or Purpose Power.



I'm liking the shared story so far.  I'll post up some notable personalities in a while in case any of you would like to use them


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## kinem (Sep 29, 2012)

Shayuri said:


> Kinem, how'd you get those attribute scores with just 30 point buy?




Oops ... I misunderstood. I'll fix it.

edit: Jemal wrote:


> STATS
> 10 base in all stats, 30 points to distribute (Max 18 before other modifiers)




I'm confused because 3.5 point buy starts with a base of 8 (unlike, for example, Pathfinder point buy).

Originally I thought we start with 10 then add points on a 1 for 1 basis.


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## Shayuri (Sep 29, 2012)

OH!

Hah! I see!

I could see that now. 30 points to distribute does kind of sound that way.


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## Voda Vosa (Sep 29, 2012)

[MENTION=9026]Jemal[/MENTION] Forgot to remove it from the sheet, did now. Any other problems with my build? It's done as far as I can tell.


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## kinem (Sep 30, 2012)

Another question, Jemal: Are we using the Complete Arcane warlock (eldritch blast as 9th level spell equivalent; higher DCs, but can't Quicken or Empower) or the rather different Complete Arcane Errata warlock (eldritch blast is 1st level spell equivalent or as highest level EE or BS applied to it)?


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## Jemal (Sep 30, 2012)

kinem said:


> Oops ... I misunderstood. I'll fix it.
> 
> edit: Jemal wrote:
> 
> ...




Actually this is the correct way.


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## Jemal (Sep 30, 2012)

You may use whichever version of eldritch blast you prefer, just choose before campaign starts and no swapping.


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## Jemal (Sep 30, 2012)

**Moving on Tuesday, Not sure how long till I have internet at the new place, so may be posting off my phone for a while, so will likely be slow.
Also be pretty busy packing & moving the next couple days.

So in general, my posting will likely be intermittent for the next week or two.
Apologies.


Probably won't be able to go over character details til I get settled in.


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## doghead (Sep 30, 2012)

Just dropped in to say hello and wich you luck with the game. While I find the high level stuff all a bit mind boggling, I do quite enjoy watching people put together high level characters. 

Good luck with your move, Jemal. I have just recently done it myself, so vividly remember how painful it can be. Hopeful your move is smooth.

Yeah.

thotd


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## Scott DeWar (Sep 30, 2012)

> base 10 30 pt increase, 1 for 1 point cost





Jemal said:


> Actually this is the correct way.




I will fix my stats then!

edit: strangely, when you base your stats at 10 and go no higher in a point buy then a 16, you end up with the same stats.

otoh, I want to ensure the following is ok:

Choker of Life Protection [MIC]

somatic weaponry(Fighter lv 1) -Comp mage pg 47

Practiced Spellcaster(Char lv 6) -Comp arcane pg 82

Acidic splatter(Char Lev 9) -Comp mage pg 37

*Arcane Armor Training????  Pathfinder rpg*

Sepulchral vest       mic pg 133

Gauntlet's of Ghost touch   MIC PG 216 

Choker of Life Protection       Throat; MIC PG 216

headband of mental superiority made via *dmg*

ifinite scroll tube MIC 162

Belt of Belt of Physical Perfection       made via dmg

Blessed Bandage mic pg 152


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## Shayuri (Sep 30, 2012)

Okay, torn between Oracle and Summoner.

Is anyone else doing a 'heal' capable character? If not, I'll do an Oracle.

If so, I'll do a Summoner.

My Eidolon, as a summoner, may have some limited healing if I elect to do a 'celestial' type thing, but it would definitely be a backup ability.


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## Voda Vosa (Sep 30, 2012)

Tutek smash


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## Binder Fred (Oct 1, 2012)

*Jemal:* Does Freedom of Movement help with Difficult Terrain? And if not is there a spell that does (like the Feather Step spell of Pathfinder)?

*All:* I seem to remember an item or spell that boosted your Bull Rush with something like "You are considered XX sizes larger when making a Bull Rush", but I can't for the life of me remember where... Thoughts?

*Shayuri:* Ur will have limited healing through Empathic Transfer + Body Adjustement (takes on the hurts of others and then heals himself) and Braham has a wand of CSW, but  that's about it re healing as far as I know. Could fit well with Gerard's undead theme if you want as well.


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## Scott DeWar (Oct 1, 2012)

That character was part of a group of level 12 s that never left the ground, just to lot every one know. Jamal was one of the players.


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## D'Raven (Oct 1, 2012)

Sorry with the late posting. Hope i'm not intruding. As a said earlier I'd like to play a character from one of Jemals earlier games. 

[sblock=Damian]
13 rogue, 1 cleric, 1 sorc, 2 fighter, 1 assassin, 1 unseen seer, 1 shadowdancer 
Str 34 (18 +5 book +6 item, +5 level)
dex 28 (17 +5 book, +6 item)
con 16 (10 +6 item)
int 16 (16)
wis 14 (12 +2 item)
cha 28 (17 +5 book +6 item)

Hp 161
Ac 29 (10 + 7 armour +6 dex +3 ring+3 NaC) +1 dodge Medium fort Ac33 (+4 spell sense) vs spells

Saves
fort 17 ( 9 +3 con,+5 item)
Ref 26 ( 12 +9 dex+5 item)
will 17 ( 10 +2 will+5 item)

combat: 
BAB 11
attack 25(11bab +12 str +1 weapon focus, +1 weapon)
damage 1d6+19 +9d6 sneak or +10d6 sneak
attack opptions: crippling strike, power attack, spring attack/bounding assult, merciful
attacks +25/+20/+15 or +25/+20 spring attack/bounding assult
Divine power +34/+29/+24/+19 or +34/+29/+24 spring attack/bounding assult/rapid blitz
Init +11

Feats
H dodge
1 mobility
3 combat reflexes
D weapon focus (Quarterstaff)
D extra followers/landlord
6 leadership
9 spring attack
12 savy rogue
15 Quick reconnoiter
18 power attack
F bounding assult
F Rapid Blitz(only with divine power)

class features
Sneak attack 9d6
evasion
trapfinding
spell sense +4
improved uncanny dodge
crippling strike
turning 12/day
domains Raven and war
familiar Raven(common)
Death attack dc 14
use poisons
Skill mastery (take 12)
hide in plain sight

skills: total (ranks mod other)* denotes skill mastery
Apraise 10 (4 +3int +3 raven)
Stealth 42 (23 +9dex +10 armour)*54
preform (dance) 14 (5 +9cha)
disguise 18 (5 +9cha + 4 synergy)
search 26 (23 +3 int) *38
sense motive 8 (5 +2wis)
spell craft 8 (5 +3 int)
Perception 25 (23 +2 wis) *37
tumble 32 (23 +9dex) *44
bluff 32 (23 +9 cha) *44
diplomacy 17 (5 +8cha +4 synergy)
disable device 20 (15+ 3 int +2 item)
open lock 15 (10 +3int +2 item)
profession merchent 12 (10+2 wis)
slight of hand 34 (23 +9 dex +2 synergy) *46
Use magic device 14/16 (5 +9 cha /+2 scrolls synergy)
jump 20 (+12 str +5 item +2 synergy)
Knowledge
religion 9(6 +3int)
Planes 26 (23+3 int)
local 8 (5+3 int)
[/sblock]

[sblock=Raven's loft]
This is the headquarters of Black Feather Trading, Damian's trading guild situated in the Bazaar. It is a Spralling complex of 1 story buildings more like a village then a strong hold, most of the space is taken up by living quarters for his employees.
Land lord allowence 800,000gp
306 spaces
5 Auditorium, fancy (10,000, 5ss)
2 alchemical labatory, fancy (2 alchemist, 6,000gp, 2ss)
10 bath, basics (4,000gp, 5ss)
10 baths fancy (20,000gp, 10ss)
1 bath, luxury (1 servent, 1 valet, 10,000gp, 2ss)
10 bed room suite, basic (8,000, 10ss)
1 bed room suite, fancy (5,000, 1ss)
135 bedrooms basic (94,500gp, 135ss)
27 bedrooms, fancy (108,000 27ss)
2 Chapels, fancy (2 acolyte, 12,00gp, 4 ss)
2 common rooms, fancy (6,000, 2ss)
10 court yard fancy (60,000 gp, 10ss)
5 court yard, luxury (5 servents 150,000gp, 5ss)
10 dining hall fancy (10 servants, 120,000, 20ss)
1 kitchen fancy (2 cooks, 12,000gp, 1ss) *luxury tavern
1 kitchen luxury (6 cooks, 50,000, 2ss) *dinning hall
10 library, fancy (30,000gp, 10ss)
10 comprehensive book lots (50,000gp no discounts)
2 magic labatory, fancy (2 apprentice, 6,000gp, 1ss)
4 office fancy (10,000gp, 4ss)
5 shop, basic (5 clerks, 2,000Gp, 5ss) 
1 shop, luxury (2 clerks, 6 guards, 16,000gp, 1ss)
2 smithy, fancy (2 smith, 4,000gp, 5ss)
10 storage basic (2,500gp, 10ss)
3 taverns, fancy (9 servants, 12,000gp, 3ss)
1 tavern, luxury (4 servents, 20,000gp, 1ss) attached
1 throne room,fancy (4 servants, 12,000gp, 1ss)
1 training area, rogue (2,000, 1ss)
1 training area, combat (1,000gp 1ss)
1 trophy hall, fancy (3 guard, 6,000Gp, 1ss)
5 workplace, fancy (10,000gp, 5ss)
17 "river"(moat)
doors 300gp
temperate plains in metropolis +5%
Spell casting discounts
Wall of stone(16th level) free stone walls
stone shape: -5% per space with stone walls
move earth:-3% per ground floor space, free moats
Fabricate:-50% luxury, -20% fancy, -5% other
Labour: ...leadership.... -5% 
stronghold cost 560,000
Magical extras
decanter of endless water 9,000gp
everfull larder 15,000gp
Hall of speech 4,000gp (throne room)
inscriptions of vacancy x2 45,000gp (throne room, Damian's room)
maps of guidance x2 36,000gp
Platform of jaunting, greater 76,500gp (greater teleport)
platform of healing 30,000gp (heal)
Mirror of mental prowness 175,000 
table of feasting 43,200gp
table of freshness x2 6,000gp
extra 439,700gp
total 1,000,000gp
out of pocket 100,000

[/sblock]

[sblock= Raven's domain]
The orignal Raven's finest feat of stealth, cunning and trickery was the theft of a bit of the divine. Instead of keeping it for himself he crafted it into a domain 
that is only accessible to his bloodline. It is assumed at the same time that one is granted the family fortune.
Granted power: Extra followers and landlord feats
Spells:
1st: undetectable alignment
2nd:...
Ya the Raven's never found the second spell they're not all that devout. Most never get the first to begin with. Have spoken to DM already.[/sblock]
[sblock=followers]
270 1st
26 2nd
14 3rd
8 4th
4 5th
4 6th
cost to feed good meal 5 sp/day= 1,141gp week
70 first level followers run the loft.(no wage/no profit)
200 first level in various professions/crafts. +10 check (4 ranks 1 stat, 3 skill focus): 2000gp/week
26 second level in various professions/crafts. +11 check (5 ranks) 273gp/week
14 third level in various professions/crafts. +14 check (6 ranks +2 misc(synergy/skill feats)) 168gp/week
8 fourth level in various professions/crafts. +16 check (7 ranks, +2 stat, +2 misc(synergy/skill feats)) 104gp/week
4 fith level, Master cook, Master smith, Master ..."information specalist", Master scribe +18~(see stats) 56gp/week
4 sixth level performers. perform +20 (9 ranks +2 stat, +5 feat, +2 competence, +2 circumstance(see stats)) 300gp/week
Net profit: 1,760gp/week
[/sblock]
[sblock=gear]
manuals:
+5 str 137,500
+5 dex 137,500
+5 cha 137,500
boots striding and springing 5,500
+6 gloves dex 36,000
+6 str belt 36,000
+6 vest of con 18,000 *crafted: 1440
+2 headband of wis 4,000
+3 ring of protection 18,000
+3 amulet of natural armour 18,000
+6 cloak of cha 18,000 *crafted: 1440
bracers of resistance +5 25,000
scarab of golem bane 2,500
handy haversack 2,000
Wand of Force Orb 40,000 cl10 10d6 force damage
masterwork thieves tools 100
+2 medium fort twilight mithral shirt of improved silent shadows 67,100
+1 transmuting merciful quarterstaff of deadly precision 25,300 *Crafted:2000 exp
Staff of righteous might and quickened divine power 132,187.5* same staff
ring of freedom of movement 20,000 *crafted 1600 exp
Strong hold 100,000gp
Unspent gold 19,812.5
[/sblock]


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## Scott DeWar (Oct 2, 2012)

Jemal said:


> Next
> [MENTION=49929]Scott DeWar[/MENTION]
> First thing to say is that if you're playing a fighter-mage, I would highly recommend the Complete Mage PRC : Abjurant Champion
> can't repeat it fully here, but its a 5 lvl class with full bab, full casting, AND special powers each level.  It's E.Knight's big brother.
> ...





fyi: working on changes. WIP


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## Jemal (Oct 2, 2012)

scott:
Dont have access to a MIC and may not for a while, so I cant give you an answer on those anytime soon (Though i wont be on too much for the next little while anyways).  If any of them are the MIC's notorious "times per day" Item's then know that I don't like those very much.
the complete arc/mage stuff is ok
the Headband should be ok provided its priced correctly.
If the armor training you're talking about is the feat from the srd Arcane Armor Training (Combat) - Pathfinder_OGC
then its fine.


Shayuri - I would love to see you play the summoner, I find them entertaining (Both the class and the general rpg concept).  I'd even be willing to give you some healing power if you want to be the white mage - summoner type.


Binder - yes freedom of movement does, I believe.  
As for the bull rush thing you might be thinking of brute gauntlets from MIC, which give bonuses to strength and strength-based checks.  Don't have access to the book right now myself though.


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## Shayuri (Oct 2, 2012)

Mew. I am leaning towards summoner. 

No need to give me anything extra though. Oh. Okay, maybe one thing. Can I use the Pathfinder list for Summon Monster?  A 9th level summon monster can then summon a celestial who can cast Heal. There's your healing right there.

Limited of course by the fact that I can't use my Summon Monster SLA while my Eidolon is out. So there's give and take.


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## Scott DeWar (Oct 2, 2012)

*I know you may not see this too very soon,*

but I was wondering if what you meant by :



Jemal said:


> scott:
> *snip*
> If any of them are the MIC's notorious "times per day" Item's then know that I don't like those very much.
> *snip*




was this for example:

-Choker of Life Protection: Negate 3 neg levls per day, 
 +2 Ac vs undead, detect undead at will (for possessing two 
 pieces of set) Magic item comp pg. 216

I hope your move goes smooth. I haven't seen my electrician's tool belt or meters since i moved.


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## Scott DeWar (Oct 2, 2012)

*[yet another] question*

regarding a hversack source of mundane items,

do we 'pre pack' with xxx,xxx  gp of materials and re-load when we need to? or just 'charge ourselves' ? example: powdered granite & dimond for stoneskin spell: 250 gp

cost from the haversack: 500 gp

remove from personal coin: 500 gp

or  is it:

[for example] load 20,000 into haversack; remove 10,000 worth of materials out over time. reload. repeat.


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## kinem (Oct 2, 2012)

Jemal, is the following item from the Pathfinder AA OK? If so, does a dangling weapon interfere with warlock invocations? Thanks.

Weapon Cord, 1 sp



> Weapon cords are 2-foot-long leather straps that attach your weapon to your wrist. If you drop your weapon or are disarmed, you can recover it as a swift action, and it never moves any further away from you than an adjacent square. However, you cannot switch to a different weapon without first untying the cord (a full-round action) or cutting it (a move action or an attack, hardness 0, 0 hp). Unlike a locked gauntlet, you can still use a hand with a weapon cord, though a dangling weapon may interfere with finer actions.




edit: BTW, I just saw that Noxious Blast nauseates for a minute, not just a round as I'd thought, so I got rid of it as it's a save-or-lose ability. I hadn't realized that warlocks are so powerful in 3.5. If the gloves had been off, a warlock 20 could make easy work of many CR 20 monsters.


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## Jemal (Oct 3, 2012)

Move went well, really like the new place.  Internet cones on Friday, so using phone til then.

Kinem - for other mages I'd say it does, but warlock invocations specify that they're relatively simple, so it'd be fine.  May have some problems if you try any quick movements while it's dangling you may risk injury.

As far as locks being powerful, yes indeed they are. I've actually used single or paired warlocks as challenging encounters for an entire party at the same level.  Used well they can be great! I love'em.
If you wanna use it as the single round version I'd be ok with that.

Scott - yes, Stuff like that is what I meant, but it's more the offensive stuff I dislike,defensive's fine for the most part.
For the bag, they need to be pre-loaded. (fluff-wise they have the stuff 'in them' already.). You can reload them at any merchant.


Exception being the portal - you can reload it by simply tossing money through to your Bazaar merchant.


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## Jemal (Oct 3, 2012)

http://www.enworld.org/forum/rogues-gallery/330075-jemals-quest-character-thread.html#post6026051
 rogues gallery is up.  Post your characters, or wip's.  Easier to check them all in one area.


Also, changing the name of this thread to "Jemal's Quest OOC".  Will do after my house Internet is up so you will all have time to read this, so there's no confusion.


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## Shayuri (Oct 3, 2012)

Okay...this is me being crazy.

Summoners have on their spell list a little jewel called Create Demiplane. Would it be okay, if I start with that spell on my list of known spells, for me to begin the game with my own little demiplane? I'd spring for the cost of the needed scrolls of Permanency so as to make it a lasting thing. Each scroll would cost 21,125gp, so it's not an inconsequential expense. I figure I'd need two of them to create a demiplane that's 110' x 110' x 30'. Enough space for a decent sized home and some landscaping.

What say you, sir?

...

Also, I'm feverishly designing eidolons. I have a really big four-armed winged humanoid who likes to knock people into the magical pits my character makes. I have a flying octopus/jellyfish thing that enjoys grappling people and hitting them over and over again. And I am considering the merits of a draconic-looking critter that I can ride around on.

Sadly, there can be only one. Though I am an evolutionist Summoner, so I can change my Eidolon's evolutions pretty easily.


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## Scott DeWar (Oct 3, 2012)

Jamal seems to like the draconic thing. just my 2 coppers. I have even seriously thought about changing my scor [celestial] to [draconic] [copper].

oh, by the way, an acre = 43,560 square feet, or 198 ft by 220 feet, FYI. In case any one was curious.


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## Voda Vosa (Oct 4, 2012)

..... 
..... 
..... 
..... Tutek smash....


----------



## Scott DeWar (Oct 4, 2012)

Voda Vosa said:


> .....
> .....
> .....
> ..... Tutek smash....




oh, hey gallager! look! watermelons


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## Shayuri (Oct 5, 2012)

Okay! In addition to my question about demiplanes, above, I have more.

1) Can we use the Favored Class benefits from Pathfinder?

2) Can we use feats from Pathfinder? There's a handful that I'm specifically interested in. Among them are Eldritch Heritage, Stand Still, and Eldritch Claws.

3) I'll assume we don't use traits, but as long as I'm asking everything else, might as well ask about them too; do you want to use Pathfinder traits? 

4) What house rules do you want to use for half elves? This is especially relevant if the answer to 1) is 'yes,' because if it is...I'll probably want to make a half elf summoner.

5) Last but not least...are spells that appear only in Pathfinder acceptable? This is important, because Summoners have a spell list that appears only in Pathfinder, and has a lot of Pathfinder-only spells in it. If they're not legal, then I probably would be better off with a summoning-themed sorceror. 

Thanks!


----------



## Scott DeWar (Oct 6, 2012)

ok, change in weather must have messed me up or something. I have slept most of this day.

differences applicable now:
class skill will change from heal to perception-already have perception, not too solid as healer anyway.

bloodline power will change from Heavenly Fire (Sp) to Claws (Su) and Celestial Resistances (Ex) to draconic resistances. I plan on him getting in the fray any way so the claws is a nice touch. he also already has spells that do moreso besides, so this meshes. the resistances 

spells:
 lv 3 bonus: lose bless [minor] for mage armor [redundant/useless]
 lv 5 bonus: same



The feel i want is something on the idea of " the secret order of the holy dragon warriors" whose purpose is to cleanse the world of oni and the release of the trapped spirits of the undead.

i have talked my self into it


----------



## Scott DeWar (Oct 6, 2012)

also which do you think is better:

*spell list A*​

```
[b]spells per day:         spells kwn:[/b]
lv 0: unlimited  = u        9
lv 1: 6 + 2 (ch) = 8        5
lv 2: 6 + 2 (ch) = 8        5
lv 3: 6 + 2 (ch) = 8        4
lv 4: 6 + 1 (ch) = 7        4
lv 5: 6 + 1 (ch) = 7        4
lv 6: 6 + 1 (ch) = 7        3
lv 7: 6 + 1 (ch) = 7        3
lv 8: 5 + 0 (ch) = 5        3
lv 9: 3 + 0 (ch) = 3        2

[b]SPELL LIST:[/b]
[i]* denotes spell compendium[/i]
[I]& denotes bonus spells frm scor[/I]

[u][b]0 level:[/u] UNLIMITED[/b]
[url=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/acidSplash.htm] [B]Acid Splash[/B] [/url]
Conjuration Level: Sor/Wiz 0

[url=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectMagic.htm] [B]Detect Magic[/B] [/url]
Divination Level: Sor/Wiz 0 

[url=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectPoison.htm] [B]Detect Poison[/B] [/url]
Divination Level: Sor/Wiz 0

[url=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disruptUndead.htm] [B]Disrupt Undead[/B] [/url]
Necromancy Level: Sor/Wiz 0

[url=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/light.htm] [B]Light[/B] [/url]
Evocation [Light] Level: Sor/Wiz 0
[B][U]Arcane Material Component: A firefly or a piece of phosphorescent moss.[/U][/B]

[url=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mending.htm] [B]Mending[/B] [/url]
Transmutation Level: Sor/Wiz 0.

[url=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/prestidigitation.htm] [B]Prestidigitation[/B] [/url]
Universal Level: Sor/Wiz 0

[B]* Launch Bolt[/B]
School: Transmutation
Level: Sorcerer/wizard 0
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: One crossbow bolt in your possession
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
Description:
You cast this spell on a crossbow bolt, causing it to fly at a target of your 
choice as if you had fired it from a light crossbow, using a ranged attack 
roll. The bolt has a range increment of 80 feet. Any properties of the 
crossbow bolt (such as magical abilities, masterwork quality, and so on) 
or feats you possess (such as Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus [light 
crossbow], and so on) apply. Drawing a bolt for this spell is a free action. 
[B][U]Material Component: The crossbow bolt to be fired (1 sp).[/U][/B]

[u][b]1st level:[/u] 00000 000[/b]

[url=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/bless.htm]Bless[/url]
[url=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/expeditiousRetreat.htm] [B]Expeditious Retreat[/B][/url]
Transmutation Level: sorcerer/wizard 1

[url=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/featherFall.htm] [B]Feather Fall[/B] [/url]
Transmutation Level: sorcerer/wizard 1

[B* ]Low Light Vision[/B]
School: Transmutation
Level: Assassin 1, druid 1, ranger 1,
sorcerer/wizard 1
Components: V, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: 1 hour/level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
Description:
The subject creature gains low-light vision. 
[B][U][I]Arcane Material Component: A small candle.[/I][/U][/B]

[url=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicMissile.htm] [B]Magic Missile[/B] [/url]
Evocation [force] Level: sorcerer/wizard 1


[B]* Persistent Blade[/B]
School: Evocation [Force]
Level: Sorcerer/wizard 1
Components: V, S, F
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: One dagger made of force
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes
Description:
You bring into being a tiny blade of force. The blade flies at a speed of 
40 feet (perfect) and attacks any target within its range, as you desire, 
starting in the round when you cast the spell. The blade attacks on your 
turn once each round, striking with an attack bonus equal to your base 
attack bonus + 1/2 your Cha modifier or Int modifier (for sorcerers and 
wizards, respectively) and deals 1d4 points of damage, with a critical 
threat range of 19–20. If an ally also attacks the creature, the blade 
moves on your turn to flank the target. As a force effect, it can strike 
ethereal and incorporeal creatures. The blade cannot be attacked. Each 
round after the first, you can use a standard action to switch the blade 
to a new target; otherwise, it continues to attack the same target. If an 
attacked creature has spell resistance, the resistance is checked the first 
time the persistent blade strikes. If the blade is successfully resisted, the 
spell is dispelled. If not, the blade has its normal full effect on that creature 
for the duration of the spell. [B][U]Focus: A silvered dagger[/U][/B]

[u][b]2nd level:[/u] 00000 000[/b]

[url=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/acidArrow.htm] [B](Melf’s) Acid Arrow[/B] [/url]
Conjuration (Creation) [Acid] Level: Sor/Wiz 2
[U][B]Material Component:[/B] Powdered rhubarb leaf and an adder’s stomach.
[B]Focus:[/B] A dart.[/U]

[B]* Body of the Sun[/B]
School: Transmutation [Fire]
Level: Druid 2, sorcerer/wizard 2
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: 5 ft.
Area: 5-ft.-radius emanation centered on you
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: Reflex half
Spell Resistance: Yes
Description
Fire extends 5 feet in all directions from your body, illuminating the area 
and dealing 1d4 points of fire damage per two caster levels (maximum 
5d4). Adjacent creatures take fire damage each round on your turn.

[url=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/darkvision.htm] [B]Darkvision[/B] [/url]
Transmutation Level: sorcerer/wizard 2
[B][U](either a pinch of dried carrot or an agate)[/U][/B]

[B]* Orb of Acid, Lesser[/B]
School: Conjuration (Creation) [Acid]
Level: Sorcerer/wizard 1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: One orb of acid
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
Description:
An orb of acid about 2 inches across shoots from your palm at its target, 
dealing 1d8 points of acid damage. You must succeed on a ranged touch 
attack to hit your target. For every two caster levels beyond 1st, your 
orb deals an additional 1d8 points of damage: 2d8 at 3rd level, 3d8 at 
5th level, 4d8 at 7th level, and the maximum of 5d8 at 9th level or higher.

[url=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resistEnergy.htm] [B]Resist Energy[/B] [/url]
Abjuration Level: sorcerer/wizard 2

[url=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spiderClimb.htm] [B]Spider Climb[/B] [/url]
Transmutation Level: sorcerer/wizard 2

[u][b]3rd level:[/u] 00000 000[/b]

[B]* Acid Breath[/B]
School: Conjuration (Creation) [Acid]
Level: Sorcerer/wizard 3
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 15 ft.
Area: Cone-shaped burst
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half
Spell Resistance: Yes
Description
 You breathe forth a cone of acidic droplets. The cone deals 1d6 points of 
acid damage per caster level (maximum 10d6). [B]Material Component: A 
handful of fire ants (alive or dead).[/B] Focus: A glass sculpture of a 
humanoid (worth 50 gp).

[B]* Disrupt Undead, Greater[/B]
School: Necromancy
Level: Sorcerer/wizard 3
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: Ray
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes
Description
You must succeed on a ranged touch attack with the ray to strike a target. 
This spell functions like disrupt undead, except that this ray deals 1d8 
points of damage per caster level to any undead, to a maximum of 10d8. 
If the damage is sufficient to destroy the first target, then you can redirect 
the ray to another undead target within 15 feet of the first target. If you 
make a successful ranged touch attack on the second target, that target 
takes half of the damage rolled for the first target.

[url=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fireball.htm] [B]Fireball[/B] [/url]
Evocation [fire] Level: sorcerer/wizard 3
[B][U][I](a ball of bat guano and sulfur)[/I][/U][/B]

[url=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/haste.htm] [B]Haste[/B] [/url]
Transmutation Level: sorcerer/wizard 3
(a shaving of licorice root)

[U][B]4 th level[/B][/U]: 00000 00

[B* ]Force Missiles[/B]
School: Evocation [Force]
Level: Sorcerer/wizard 4
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Targets: Up to four creatures, no two of which are more than 30 ft. apart
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes
Description:
You create powerful missiles of magical force, each of which darts from your 
fingertips and unerringly strikes its target, dealing 2d6 points of damage. The 
missile then explodes in a burst of force that deals half this amount of damage 
to any creatures adjacent to the primary target. The missile strikes unerringly, 
even if the target is in melee or has anything less than total cover or 
concealment. A caster cannot single out specific parts of a creature. The spell 
can target and damage unattended objects. You gain one missile for every four 
caster levels. You can make more than one missile strike a single target, if 
desired. However, you must designate targets before rolling for spell 
resistance or damage.

[B]* Orb of Acid[/B]
School: Conjuration (Creation) [Acid]
Level: Sorcerer/wizard 4
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: One orb of acid
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude partial; see text
Spell Resistance: No
Description:
An orb of acid about 3 inches across shoots from your palm at its target, 
dealing 1d6 points of acid damage per caster level (maximum 15d6). You 
must succeed on a ranged touch attack to hit your target. A creature 
struck by the orb takes damage and becomes sickened by the acid’s 
noxious fumes for 1 round. A successful Fortitude save negates the 
sickened effect but does not reduce the damage.

[url=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/stoneShape.htm] [B]Stoneshape[/B] [/url]
Transmutation [earth] Level: sorcerer/wizard 4
[B][U][I](soft clay)[/I][/U][/B]

[url=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/stoneskin.htm] [B]Stoneskin[/B] [/url]
Abjuration Level: sorcerer/wizard 4
[B](granite and diamond dust worth 250 gp)[/B]

[B][U]5 th level[/U][/B]: 00000 00

[url=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fabricate.htm] [B]Fabricate[/B] [/url]
Transmutation Level: sorcerer/wizard 5
[B][U][I](the original material, which costs the same amount as the raw materials 
required to craft the item to be created)[/I][/U][/B]

[B]* Planar Tolerance[/B]
Level: sorcerer/wizard 5
Duration: 1 hour/level
Description:
This spell functions like avoid planar effects, except as noted above.

[B]* Avoid Planer Effects[/B]
Abjuration Level: sorcerer/wizard 3
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 immediate action
Range: 20 ft.
Targets: One creature/level in a 20-ft.-radius burst 
centered on you
Duration: 1 minute/level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
Description
You gain a temporary respite from the natural effects of a specific plane. 
These effects include extremes in temperature, lack of air, poisonous 
fumes, emanations of positive or negative energy, or other attributes of 
the plane itself (DMG 150). Avoid planar effects provides protection from 
the 3d10 points of fire damage that characters normally take when on a 
plane with the fire-dominant trait. Avoid planar effects allows a character 
to breathe water on a water dominant plane and ignore the threat of 
suffocation on an earth-dominant plane. A character protected by avoid 
planar effects can’t be blinded by the energy of a major positive-dominant
plane and automatically stops gaining temporary hit points when they 
equal the character’s full normal hit point total. Negative-dominant planes 
don’t deal damage or bestow negative levels to characters protected by 
avoid planar effects. In addition, some effects specific to a plane are negated 
by avoid planar effects. In the D&D cosmology, avoid planar effects negates 
the deafening effect of Pandemonium and the cold damage on the Cania 
layer of the Nine Hells. The DM can add additional protections for a cosmology 
he creates. If the campaign has an Elemental Plane of Cold, for example, 
avoid planar  effects protects against the base cold damage dealt to everyone 
on the plane. The effects of gravity traits, alignment traits, and magic traits 
aren’t negated by avoid planar effects, nor is the special entrapping trait of
certain planes (such as Elysium and Hades). The spell does not provide 
protection against creatures, native or otherwise, nor does it protect against 
spells, special abilities, or extreme and non-natural formations within the plane. 
This spell allows you to survive on the Elemental Plane of Earth, for instance, 
but it won’t protect you if you walk into a pool of magma on that same plane.

[B]* Reciprocal Gyre[/B]
School: Abjuration
Level: Sorcerer/wizard 5
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target: One creature or object
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will half, then Fortitude negates; see text
Spell Resistance: No
Description:
The subject takes 1d12 points of damage per functioning spell or spell-like 
ability currently affecting it (maximum 25d12). In addition, any creature so  
affected that fails its Will save must then succeed on a Fortitude save or be 
dazed for 1d6 rounds. Only spells specifically targeted on the creature in 
question can be used to create the backlash of a reciprocal gyre, so spells 
that affect an area can’t be used to deal reciprocal damage to creatures 
within their area. Likewise, persistent or continuous effects from magic 
items can’t be used to deal reciprocal damage, but targeted spell effects 
can be. [B]Material Component: A tiny closed loop of copper wire.[/B]

[B]* Vitriolic Sphere[/B]
School: Conjuration (Creation) [Acid]
Level: Sorcerer/wizard 5
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area: 10-ft.-radius burst
Duration: Instantaneous; see text
Saving Throw: Reflex partial; see text
Spell Resistance: No
Description
Affected creatures take 6d6 points of acid damage. Creatures that succeed 
on their Reflex saving throws take half of this damage. Creatures that fail 
their Reflex saves take full damage, and also take 6d6 points of acid damage
in each of the following 2 rounds.[B] Material Component: A tiny glass vial 
filled with aqua regia (Nitric Acid)[/B]

[B][U]6 th level[/U][/B]: 00000 00

[B]* Acid Storm[/B]
School: Conjuration (Creation) [Acid]
Level: Sorcerer/wizard 6
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Area: Cylinder (20-ft. radius, 20 ft. high)
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half
Spell Resistance: No
Description
Acid rain deals 1d6 points of acid damage per caster level (maximum 15d6) 
to each creature in the area.[B] Material Component: A flask of acid (10 gp). [/B]

[B]* Elemental Body III[/B]
School transmutation (polymorph); 
Level sorcerer/wizard 6
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (the element you plan to assume)
Range personal
Target you
Duration 1 min/level (D)
Description
This spell functions as elemental body I, except that it also allows you to 
assume the form of a Large air, earth, fire, or water elemental. The abilities 
you gain depend upon the type of elemental you change into. You are also 
immune to critical hits and sneak attacks while in elemental form.

[U]Air elemental:[/U] As elemental body I except that you gain a +2 
enhancement bonus to your Strength, +4 enhancement bonus to your 
Dexterity, and a +4 natural armor bonus.

[U]Earth elemental: [/U]As elemental body I except that you gain a +6 
enhancement bonus to your Strength, a –2 penalty on your Dexterity, a 
+2 enhancement bonus to your Constitution, and a +6 natural armor bonus.

[U]Fire elemental[/U]: As elemental body I except that you gain a +4 
enhancement bonus to your Dexterity, a +2 enhancement bonus to your 
Constitution, and a +4 natural armor bonus.

[U]Water elemental:[/U] As elemental body I except that you gain a +2 
enhancement bonus to your Strength, a –2 penalty on your Dexterity, a 
+6 enhancement bonus to your Constitution, and a +6 natural armor bonus.

[url=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/heroismGreater.htm] [B]Heroism, Greater[/B] [/url]
Eenchantment (compulsion) [mind-affecting] Level:sorcerer/wizard 6

[url=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/heroism.htm] [B]Heroism[/B] [/url]
Enchantment (compulsion) [mind-affecting] Level: sorcerer/wizard 3

[B][U]7 th level:[/U][/B] 00000 00

[url=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/banishment.htm] [B]Banishment[/B] [/url]
Abjuration Level: Sor/Wiz 7
[B][U][I]Arcane Focus: Any item that is distasteful to the subject (optional, see above).[/I][/U][/B]

[url=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/limitedWish.htm] [B]Limited Wish[/B] [/url]
Universal Level:sorcerer/wizard 7
[B](diamond worth 1,500 gp + special)[/B]

[url=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesSword.htm] [B]Mage’s Sword[/B] [/url]
Evocation [Force] Level: Sor/Wiz 7
[B]Focus: A miniature platinum sword with a grip and pommel of copper and zinc. It costs 250 gp to construct.[/B]

[B][U]8 th level: [/U][/B]00000

[B]* Form of the Dragon III[/B]
School transmutation (polymorph); 
Level sorcerer/wizard 8
Description:
This spell functions as form of the [U]dragon I[/U] except that it also allows 
you to assume the form of a Huge chromatic or metallic dragon. You gain the 
following abilities: a +10 enhancement bonus to Strength, a +8 enhancement 
bonus to Constitution, a +8 natural armor bonus, fly 120 feet (poor), 
blindsense 60 feet, darkvision 120 feet, a breath weapon, DR 10/magic, 
frightful presence (DC equal to the DC for this spell), and immunity to one 
element (of the same type form of the dragon I grants resistance to). You 
also gain one bite (2d8), two claws (2d6), two wing attacks (1d8), and one 
tail slap attack (2d6). You can use the breath weapon as often as you like, but 
you must wait 1d4 rounds between uses. All breath weapons deal 12d8 points 
of damage and allow a Reflex save for half damage. Line breath weapons 
increase to 100-foot lines and cones increase to 50-foot cones.

[B]* Form of the Dragon I[/B]
School transmutation (polymorph); 
Level sorcerer/wizard 6
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M[B] (a scale of the dragon type you plan to assume)[/B]
Range personal
Target you
Duration 1 min/level (D)
Save see below; 
Spell Resistance:  no
Description
When you cast this spell you assume the form of a Medium chromatic
or metallic dragon. You gain the following abilities: a +4 enhancement
bonus to Strength, a +2 enhancement bonus to Constitution, a +4
natural armor bonus, fly 60 feet (poor), darkvision 60 feet, a breath
weapon, and resistance to one element. You also gain one bite (1d8),
two claws (1d6), and two wing attacks (1d4). Your breath weapon and
resistance depend on the type of dragon that you transform into. You
can only use the breath weapon once per casting of this spell. All breath
weapons deal 6d8 points of damage and allow a Reflex save for half
damage. In addition, some of the dragon types grant additional abilities
as noted below.

Black dragon: 60-foot line of acid, resist acid 20, swim 60 feet

Blue dragon: 60-foot line of electricity, resist electricity 20, burrow 20
feet

Green dragon: 30-foot cone of acid, resist acid 20, swim 40 feet

Red dragon: 30-foot cone of fire, resist fire 30, vulnerability to cold

White dragon: 30-foot cone of cold, resist cold 20, swim 60 feet,
vulnerability to fire

Brass dragon: 60-foot line of fire, resist fire 20, burrow 30 feet,
vulnerability to cold

Bronze dragon: 60-foot line of electricity, resist electricity 20, swim
60 feet

Copper dragon: 60-foot line of acid, resist acid 20, spider climb (always
active)

Gold dragon: 30-foot cone of fire, resist fire 20, swim 60 feet

Silver dragon: 30-foot cone of cold, resist cold 30, vulnerability to fire

[url=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polarRay.htm] [B]Polar Ray[/B] [/url]
Evocation [cold] Level: sorcerer/wizard 8
[B] (a white ceramic cone or prism)[/B]

[url=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sunburst.htm] [B]Sunburst[/B] [/url]
Evocation [light]Level: sorcerer/wizard 8
[B](sunstone and fire source)[/B]

[B][U]9 th level:[/U][/B] 000

[B]* Absorption[/B]
School: Abjuration
Level: Sorcerer/wizard 9
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Until expended or 10 minutes/level
Description
 Spells and spell-like effects that target you are absorbed, their energy stored to 
power spells of your own. Absorption absorbs only ranged spells that have you 
as a target. Touch spells, effect spells, and area spells that affect you cannot be 
absorbed. Once the spell is cast, you can absorb 1d4+6 spell levels (rolled secretly 
by the DM). The level of each spell you absorb is subtracted from the total. If a 
spell is only partially absorbed (because its level exceeds the number of levels 
remaining to be absorbed), divide the number of spell levels left unabsorbed by the 
original spell level. For spells that deal damage, use the result to determine what 
fraction of the damage you take. For spells that create effects, use the result as a 
percentage chance to be affected. For example, you have three spell levels of 
absorption remaining and are struck by dominate person cast as a 5th- level spell. 
Absorption absorbs three levels of the spell, resulting in a 40% chance (2/5) that you 
will be affected normally. If affected, any saving throw the spell allows you still applies. 
Likewise, if you’re struck by disintegrate cast as a 6th-level spell with four levels of 
absorption remaining, two levels of the spell remain, and you take only 33% (1/3) of the 
damage you would normally take from the spell. You can use captured spell energy to
cast any spell you know or have prepared, but spells so cast don’t disappear from your 
list of prepared spells or count against the number of spells you can normally cast per 
day (so you so must keep a running total of spell levels absorbed and used). The levels 
of spell energy you have stored must be equal to or greater than the level of the spell 
you want to cast, and you must have at hand (and expend) any material components
required for the spell.

[url=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shapechange.htm] [B]Shapechange[/B] [/url]
Transmutation (polymorph) Level: wizard/sorcerer 9
Focus [B] (jade circlet worth 1,500 gp)[/B]
```


*OR spell list B*​


```
[b]spells per day:         spells kwn:[/b]
lv 0: unlimited  = u        9
lv 1: 6 + 2 (ch) = 8        5
lv 2: 6 + 2 (ch) = 8        5
lv 3: 6 + 2 (ch) = 8        4
lv 4: 6 + 1 (ch) = 7        4
lv 5: 6 + 1 (ch) = 7        4
lv 6: 6 + 1 (ch) = 7        3
lv 7: 6 + 1 (ch) = 7        3
lv 8: 5 + 0 (ch) = 5        3
lv 9: 3 + 0 (ch) = 3        2

[b]SPELL LIST:[/b]
[i]* denotes spell compendium[/i]
[I]& denotes bonus spells frm scor[/I]

[u][b]0 level: 
Acid Splash
Detect magic
Detect Poison
Disrupt Undead
Light
Mend
Prestidigitation
*Launch bolt 
Ray of frost

[u][b]1st level:[/u] 00000 000[/b]
Expeditious retreat
Feather Fall
*low light vision 
magic missile
*Persistent Blade 
&Mage Armor

[u][b]2nd level:[/u] 00000 000[/b]
*Body of the Sun
dark vision
Melf's acid arrow 
*Orb of Acid, Lesser
&Resist energy
spider climb

[u][b]3rd level:[/u] 00000 000[/b]
*Acid breath
*Disrupt undead, Gtr
fireball
haste

[U][B]4 th level[/B][/U]: 00000 00
* force missiles
* Orb of Acid
shape stone
Stone skin

[B][U]5 th level[/U][/B]: 00000 00
Fabricate
Planar Tolerance
Reciprocal Gyre
Vitriolic Sphere

[B][U]6 th level[/U][/B]: 00000 00
Acid Storm 
Elemental Body III
Heroism, Greater
 
[B][U]7 th level:[/U][/B] 00000 00
Banishment
Limited Wish 
Mage’s Sword 

[B][U]8 th level: [/U][/B]00000 
* Form of the Dragon III
Polar Ray
Sunburst

[B][U]9 th level:[/U][/B] 000
Absorption
Shapechange
```


----------



## Scott DeWar (Oct 6, 2012)

OK, A LITTLE MORE FIDDLE FUSSING:

I wish to bchange this:
Chain shirt, ghost touch, mithral,+5 

to

 this:

Silk shirt, the color of old burnished patina of copper,
stylized dragon scales embroidered within, each one with an arcane symbol, the color of flat black. This is the master piece of Gerald's apprenticeship and is the cost of a masterwork item of its equal, if not more.

it has the following powers:
Mage Armor [greater], from a scroll giving a base armor of +6
[mage armor is force-effective against undead [incorporeal]]
shadow, greater; from a scroll invisibility            
+5 enchantment
cost =
5*5=25,000 enhancement
base item: 5,000 craft work
shadow, gtr 33,750
1125 mage armr gtr scroll cl 15
750 invis scroll
total 65,625

this is mostly for flavor as it fits the 'feel' of the abjurant champion's prefrense for no armor.

overall, increase his stealth by +15 and his ac by +1


----------



## Jemal (Oct 6, 2012)

allright internets back but im still getting settled, and ive injured my hand now, so typings a pain.  

k, so here goes:

Shayuri - 
Im going to say no to create demiplane.  
For the most part, assume NO to pathfinder stuff.  This is a 3.5 campaign, and I'd like to keep the non 3.5 material to a bare minimum.
For feats, I'm going to say NO to those three specific ones you suggested, but I'll allow any that are summoner specific b/c they dont have any in 3.5.
No pathfinder favoured class bonuses.
No traits
Most of the summoner spells should be good, except the demiplane one.  I'll double check what i can of them and tell you if any of the others dont mesh.
If you'd like some compensation, I'm still willing to offer some healing power. 
Half Elves: I'm only going to go through buffing half elves if someone really wants to play one for fluff reasons. (And if I do, you're stuck with half-elf  )



Scott - 
So claws/perception, holy order of dragon monks.. I'm assuming then that you're using the draconic bloodline?

Dont have time to look over the two spell lists yet. 

Now, onto the main issue:
Several problems with that item.  First and Foremost, you cant craft items using scrolls.  You have to know the spell being used, and be capable of casting it yourself each day of the items creation process(1 day / 1000 gp base price).  Also, I have no idea how you figured out that items pricing or what it does.. looks like you enhanced a shirt with greater mage armour, then enhanced THAT by an additional 5?  *doesn't work btw*
I Dont get the "5000 craft work", unless this is just an aesthetic thing and the silk shirt itself, sans magic, is worth 5,000 gp.
The +15 shadow would only give you a +7 bonus to stealth, b/c of my prior ruling that things which give a bonus to EITHER hide or move silent but not BOTH are halved. 

Even if you could use scrolls to sub for spells, you'd need one scroll for each day the item would take to make.. so 1 for each 1000 gp base cost of the item.

(You could add both hide AND Move silent to get the same bonus, essentially doubling the cost of items that increase perception/Stealth)

Also, abj. champs much prefer actually CASTING the spell to wearing it as armor, b/c they add their class level to the ac bonus when they do so... a lvl 5 ab champ casting greater mage armour gets +11 armor bonus from it.
Ab champs in armor is counter-productive.  its almost as bad as putting monks in armor.  
On that note.. if you were to talk a lvl in monk, there's a little feat called ascetic mage that when combined with ab champ makes you laugh at anyone silly enough to encase their bodies in anything as fragile as metal.
Its from comp adventurer.  It has other powers, but its primary use is for a sorc-monk to add their cha to ac instead of wis when unarmoured.


----------



## Scott DeWar (Oct 6, 2012)

Jemal said:


> allright internets back but im still getting settled, and ive injured my hand now, so typings a pain.




when I woke 10 months ago from the induced coma, my shoulder to hand was dead. now it moves some, but excruciatingly painful and still weak. blah!



Jemal said:


> Scott -
> So claws/perception, holy order of dragon monks.. I'm assuming then that you're using the draconic bloodline?




yes!



Jemal said:


> Don't have time to look over the two spell lists yet.




no prob, just wondering if you find the links to the non compendium specific spells helpful and the copy/paste of specific spells to your liking.



Jemal said:


> Now, onto the main issue:
> Several problems with that item.  First and Foremost, you cant craft items using scrolls.  You have to know the spell being used, and be capable of casting it yourself each day of the items creation process(1 day / 1000 gp base price).  Also, I have no idea how you figured out that items pricing or what it does.. looks like you enhanced a shirt with greater mage armour, then enhanced THAT by an additional 5?  *doesn't work btw*




ok, I will nix the gtr armor effect



Jemal said:


> I Dont get the "5000 craft work", unless this is just an aesthetic thing and the silk shirt itself, sans magic, is worth 5,000 gp.




correct, shirt sans magic is worth 5000-just fluff/flavor



Jemal said:


> The +15 shadow would only give you a +7 bonus to stealth, b/c of my prior ruling that things which give a bonus to EITHER hide or move silent but not BOTH are halved.
> 
> (You could add both hide AND Move silent to get the same bonus, essentially doubling the cost of items that increase perception/Stealth)
> 
> Also, abj. champs much prefer actually CASTING the spell to wearing it as armor, b/c they add their class level to the ac bonus when they do so... a lvl 5 ab champ casting greater mage armour gets +11 armor bonus from it.




So if I had silent moves, greater and shadow, greater with protection +5
[base[5,000]+protection +5[25,000]+silent gtr [33,750]+shadow gtr [33,750]
that would give me +15 stealth, +5 pretection, and look good doing it! then swap a lvl 3 spell for mage armor, gtr to get that+11 bonus
[97,500]



Jemal said:


> Ab champs in armor is counter-productive.  its almost as bad as putting monks in armor.
> On that note.. if you were to talk a lvl in monk, there's a little feat called ascetic mage that when combined with ab champ makes you laugh at anyone silly enough to encase their bodies in anything as fragile as metal.
> Its from comp adventurer.  It has other powers, but its primary use is for a sorc-monk to add their cha to ac instead of wis when unarmored.




Yup, noticed the sans armor thing, that is why I am fiddle-fussing. Much as I like the ascetic mage thing, I can't shoe horn in that monk level. As of right now, I need to change the level 3 spell lists. He would have to pay to have this made as it requires the collaboration of an arcane caster and divine caster to accomplish. also with no armor, the feat at level is not needed. I am thinking a meta magic feat in its place. [sudden silent] or even better from complete arcana pg 79:

ENERGY SUBSTITUTION
[METAMAGIC]
You can modify an energy-based spell to use another type
of energy instead.
Prerequisites: Knowledge (arcana) 5 ranks, any metamagic
feat.
Benefi t: Choose one type of energy (acid, cold, electricity,
or fi re). You can then modify any spell with an energy
descriptor to use the chosen type of energy instead. An energy
substituted spell uses a spell slot of the spell’s normal
level. The spell’s descriptor changes to the new energy
type—for example, a fireball composed of cold energy
is an evocation [cold] spell.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple
times, choosing a different type of energy
each time.

need to see if i have the pre-req.


----------



## Binder Fred (Oct 6, 2012)

Hey there  [MENTION=9026]Jemal[/MENTION], basic build done, fiddling with Feats and powers. in that vein:

- Would you allow the Battle Jumper Feat from Unaproachable East? Details below.

- My monk has unarmed attacks that are considered Large (through the Improved Natural Weapon Feat), can that qualify him for the Knockback Feat (Races of Stone) which has a prerequisite of Large?

[sblock=Battle Jumper]Battle Jump
Type: Fighter, General
Source: Unapproachable East

You know how to launch a devastating attack from above by dropping onto your opponent.

Region: Taer
Benefit: You can execute a charge by simply dropping from a height of at least 5 feet above your opponent. For example, a ledge 10 feet above the floor of a cavern would suffice for jumping on a Medium-sized creature, while a ledge 15 feet high is required for a jumping on a Large creature. You can't jump from more than 30 feet above your opponent, nor can you effectively battle jump while under the influence of a fly or levitate spell or effect, as you have to hurl yourself down on your foe.

If you hit, you can choose either to deal double damage with a melee weapon or natural attack or to attempt a trip attack. You are treated as one size category larger than normal if you try to trip your opponent with the battle jump. After you attack, you take falling damage as normal for the distance you jumped. You are entitled to a Jump check (DC 15) to take less damage, as if you had fallen 10 feet less than you actually did. If you fail this Jump check, you fall prone 5 feet from your opponent.

You can also use Battle Jump to begin a grapple attempt instead of making a normal attack. If you do, you are treated as one size category larger than normal for the first grapple check following the battle jump.

Normal: Anybody can try to jump down on an enemy, but it is not considered a charge, and they do not gain double damage or the size bonus for the ensuing attack.[/sblock]


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## Shayuri (Oct 6, 2012)

Hragh!

Glad I asked before I got too attached to my concept. Hee hee. Looks like I'll be saving that one for an actual Pathfinder game.

Hmm. Must do some radical revisions.

Thanks for the clarifications, Jemal. One more thing I need to know is if I'll be using the 3.5 Summon Monster list, or the Pathfinder Summon Monster list. They're different, especially at high levels.

Don't worry about buffing Summoner with healing. I am on the brink of changing my mind to an Oracle anyway.


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## Binder Fred (Oct 7, 2012)

*Cart of the Silver Clouds*

I'd like to propose the following for our party transportation: _A large if plain wooden cart pulled by two magnificiant silver rams (*litteraly* made of silver)._ 

*Stats:* 80' ground speed, 60' Flight Speed (can hover), can pull 2 000 lbs forever without tiring or slowing.

*Cost:* 162 K gp (or, put another way, a measely 10.5 K per character in addition to the Party fund; most of the PCs have more than that in spare change).

*What do you guys think?*

[sblock=Build]Stone Destriers (14.8K each) X 2 (Could save 9.6K if used Coursers instead, but Destriers can defend themselves when we leave our cart behind to go exploring): 29.6 K gp
Horseshoes of Flying (54K) and Speed (3K) X2: 117 K gp
Cart of the Clouds (Swapped CL 6 Levitation instead of Overland Flight on a 10X10 Carpet of Flying; Lifts 600 pounds, the weight of the cart itself. The rest is pulled by the horses/rams): 16K gp.[/sblock]


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## Scott DeWar (Oct 7, 2012)

What do you think of this color [00FF70]?


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## Jemal (Oct 7, 2012)

RE the cart - I like that idea, So I'll give it to you for 150K

Cost an even 150K, And I'll let you summon/dismiss it into a figurine of wondrous power (No time limits), so you don't have to worry about leaving them or them defending themselves.  

Shay - So long as the monster exists in the 3.5 monster manual, i'm fine with you using from either or both lists if you want.

Binder - 
Imp. Natural Attack feat just allow you to deal larger damage, it does not actually make you larger, nor confer any other powers of being large (Such as size bonuses or feat pre-reqs)

And I'll allow that battlejumper feat if you don't 
A: Use anything else that _multiplies_ your weapon damage. (discounting crits)
B: Power attack. 

Scott - 
That color's fine.


> when I woke 10 months ago from the induced coma, my shoulder to hand was dead. now it moves some, but excruciatingly painful and still weak. blah!



Oh sure, make me feel like a pansy for complaining about a measly ripped off fingernail. 

Anyways, when you say +5 protection on the shirt, do you mean +5 armor enhancement, or deflection ala Ring of *Protection*?
Keep in mind that any armour/enhancement bonus you have does not stack with your Mage Armour spells, it also gives an armour bonus, and you use whichever is higher (Which will be the +11 greater Abjurant mage armour.)

It would have to be at least +1 Enhancement before you can add other things like shadow/silent moves to it.. and on that note, yes if you bought both Greater silent AND shadow, you would get a +15 to Stealth.  

I have a suggestion: 
+1 Silk Shirt of Greater Stealth : Total cost=5,000 shirt + 1,000 Enhancement + 67,500 Greater Stealth(Silent moves/shadow) = 73,500 gp cost.
I'll even let it give the 'Circlet of Persuasion' bonuses(equivalent 4,500) since you made it look so purdy. 



AND, to those of you who haven't already, could you please just post up whatever you've got as your work in progress to the Rogues Gallery so I can see what people are thinking so far? thnx.


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## kinem (Oct 7, 2012)

Jemal, I hope you've recovered 

Are the following items from the MIC OK?



> GAUNTLETS OF WEAPONRY ARCANE: 6,000 gp
> These long, leather gauntlets extend far up the forearm. Silver stitching covers much of the leather, forming complex arcane runes. Any weapon (even a nonmetallic one) you hold while wearing these gauntlets overcomes damage reduction as if it were a magic silvered weapon.




I assume the weapon's normal qualities to overcome DR would still work too.



> GLOVES OF ELDRITCH ADMIXTURE: 2,500 gp
> Activation: Swift (command)
> Dark whorls stream across these leather gloves, dizzying the eye and clouding the mind. Warlocks prize these gloves, which allow them to enhance their eldritch blasts with pure energy. Gloves of eldritch admixture have 3 charges, which are renewed each day at dawn. Spending 1 or more charges adds extra damage to the next eldritch blast you make before the end of your turn. This damage can be acid, cold, or fire, as chosen by you each time you activate the gloves.
> 1 charge: +2d6 points of damage.
> ...






> ETERNAL WAND
> This long, tapered wand ends with a pink crystal containing red swirls. An eternal wand holds a single arcane spell of 3rd level or lower, determined during creation. Any character who can cast arcane spells can activate the wand to use the spell contained in it, regardless of whether the spell appears on his class spell list. An eternal wand functions two times per day.
> 
> Spell Level 0th, Caster Level 1st, 460 gp
> ...




Also, would an enhancement bonus to a warlock's land speed also apply to his fell flight?



> FELL FLIGHT
> When you use this invocation, the powers of darkness bear you aloft as you sprout a streaming, winglike cape of shadows. You can fly at a speed equal to your land speed with good maneuverability for 24 hours.


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## Binder Fred (Oct 7, 2012)

Jemal said:


> Imp. Natural Attack feat just allow you to deal larger damage, it does not actually make you larger, nor confer any other powers of being large (Such as size bonuses or feat pre-reqs)



True. Would you be willing to slightly bend the letter of the rules in the spirit of logic then? After all, Knockback basically gives you a Bull Rush because you hit hard (specifically here: "like a Large character"). If I do, strictly speaking, "hit like a Large character", what does my hat size have to do with it? 

Frankly, Bull Rush is not that great a manoeuver to begin with (I'm actually pushing characters out of reach of my own attacks, a big factor when you're playing a Flurry of Blows monk). I expect  the biggest *numerical* advantage I'll get from it is from extra AoO when I have Reach (through Expansion) -- and in those cases my character *will* be Large or Larger anyway. I want Knockback at medium size because it's cool (I am NOT trying to build one of those ridiculous Flaming Ball of Death combos here) and I'm already paying a two feat "feat tax" to get it as it is (I would not be taking Power Attack or Improved Bull Rush without Knockback at the end). I *might* take Shock Trooper to try to gain *some* numerical advantage out of the wild Feat expense, though (because, of course, you need a Feat to do something that the basic Bull Rush maneuver should allow you to do in the first place if it was any good at all: Bull Rush in a 90 degree "fan" behind the target and gain an actual advantage when you actually manage to push people into other stuff... <sigh>). 

Sorry, guess I'm getting a little frustrated with the arbitrarely rail-roady nature of the Feat system (and the clunkiness of any combat manoeuver that diverges from the holly I-Hit-it-with-my-Sword)... The above still makes sense to my mind though... Thinking about it, and with your permission, I'd personnaly nerf the Shock Trooper Feat (Complete Warrior) a little: have the Trip attack only apply to the Bull-Rushed character (with maybe a -X tohit or to AC for the bumped-in character?) and it's a *simple trip attempt*, not an Improved Trip attempt (no following attack on a successful trip so locks the door on the Flaming Ball silliness). I think the Trip attempt should apply to impacts with anything one size category smaller than the target or bigger though (chairs, walls, the halfling on all fours behind your knees ), not just another character... Just a thought.


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## Shayuri (Oct 7, 2012)

Did a little reading, comparing monster stats.

3.5 edition versions of high level summons are quite a bit less powerful than the pathfinder equivalents.

Don't think summoning is going to work out. Not for a high level/epic game. The challenges escalate far in excess of the availability of monsters for summoning. The Eidolon is good, but...eh. Definitely feeling like more trouble than it's worth right now.

Not having much luck with Oracle ideas either. 

It's surprisingly hard to do the "mostly 3.5 but a little Pathfinder" approach for me. It's like two apple trees...one with rich red delicious apples, and one with little green nasty ones. And I can pick one nice apple, but the rest have to be from the other tree. 

So...I dunno. If I can't think of something that appeals by Monday, I'll pull out so the rest of y'all don't have to wait on me.


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## Scott DeWar (Oct 7, 2012)

Ripped off a finger nail?!? MAJOR OUCH!!!!! nothing pansy about that, down to the roots?



> I have a suggestion:
> +1 Silk Shirt of Greater Stealth : Total cost=5,000 shirt + 1,000 Enhancement + 67,500 Greater Stealth(Silent moves/shadow) = 73,500 gp cost.
> I'll even let it give the 'Circlet of Persuasion' bonuses(equivalent 4,500) since you made it look so purdy.




and you said the +1 enhancement is null vs the gtr mage armor, right?


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## Binder Fred (Oct 7, 2012)

Hey there,         [MENTION=4936]Shayuri[/MENTION]. Well, how about a Nature Oracle so you can at least do all the Nature's Ally spells? 

Have you given thought to using the Astral Construct Psion power (Expanded Psionics Handbook) for summoning creatures instead of a Sorceror build? If you take the Ardent class from Complete Psionic, you can pursue both the Creation mantle (which covers Astral Construct) and the Life mantle (for healing powers). Build up your summoning power with Ectopic prestige class (also from Complete Psionic).

Or is it a question of base concept rather than base mechanics that's tripping you up? How about re-skinning your summoned creatures with a theme: saints, angels and/or the spirit of legendary heroes/personnal ancestors for a Divine/medieval character (multiclass as paladin)? Fairies (seely and unseely), talking animals and tiny nature gods for a more romantic character? Bones and bodies for a- Um, probably not with Gerald in the party . Clockwork (coming out of a pouch of tiny things?)? Have information-based spells come through talking with your creatures/sending them on recon? A divinely-inspired sculptor that shapes his/her creatures out of clay? A painter/caligraphist mage that draws them to life (lots and lots of Marvelous Pigment)?


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## Scott DeWar (Oct 7, 2012)

Binder Fred said:


> Bones and bodies for a- Um, probably not with Gerald in the party .




ha ha ha ha!!! har har har har! That got me laughing! thanx!


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## Scott DeWar (Oct 7, 2012)

Shayuri said:


> So...I dunno. If I can't think of something that appeals by Monday, I'll pull out so the rest of y'all don't have to wait on me.




nooooooooo
Don't go!


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## Shayuri (Oct 7, 2012)

An oracle of Nature wouldn't be too effective in a game revolving around planar exploration.

But!

I have another concept I shall develop. Celestial Sorceror/monk with Ascetic Mage. Tossed around the idea of an aasimar, but the level adjustment is too big a loss if I take a monk level too.

I'll still be doing some summoning, but I won't be a summoner. No eidolon or Gate SLA's. 

Since it looks like our dracosorceror is focused on blasties and direct attacks, I'll be focused on support, buffing, utility and summons. With some blasts thrown in for good measure.

Shan't be a great healer, but with celestial summons and my little holy ray, I can do some healing.


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## Jemal (Oct 7, 2012)

Shayuri - 
Sorry to hear bout the summoner thing  
I have to disagree with your analogy though, and hijack it for my own use. 
the 3.5 apple tree is much better for making Applesauce. (throw a bunch in a blender and see what comes out.) 

rest - Will address later, getting ready for thanksgiving dinner with the sis & girlfriend.


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## Shayuri (Oct 8, 2012)

Heh. It's hard to go back to 3.5 for me these days. I stand by my metaphor. 

I'd like to have tried the summoner but they trade in the versatility of good spells for the versatility of summoning...which means their power is entirely based on the monsters involved. 3.5e summons are fine as something to supplement full spellcasting, but they're not strong enough to be Your One Big Thing.

And I have to admit, because it's a "pathfinder" class, it's harder for me to make a 3.5e character using those rules. Sorceror is different in Pathfinder, but it's just adjusted. I can easily think of a 3.5e sorceror who's just gotten some spiffs, and that's basically what it is.

But I found my summoner ideas too linked into the various non-3.5e stuff to be attractive. That's purely a wall my own creativity is hitting. I'm sure it can be done, and well...I just wasn't getting there.


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## Scott DeWar (Oct 8, 2012)

as for apples, the little green sours make the best pies and cobblers, but liking an RPG too much to water down with a prior edition, i feel the pain.

And Jamal happy Canadian thanksgiving!


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## Binder Fred (Oct 9, 2012)

Hello all. Do we have any religious characters in the party? i.e. people that openly worship a specific God or Goddess? I'm going with a ring of Divine Might (well, actually a belt of Divine Prayer, but same diff), which is better IC if you have the related God's approval . So I would make Ur a fellow worshipper.  [MENTION=49929]Scott DeWar[/MENTION], your PC seems to belong to an at least semi-religious order (nice colour, by the way, going for _'dragon scale green'_ I take it?)... Or maybe  [MENTION=4936]Shayuri[/MENTION]'s PC?

By the by, and while on the topic, could I suggest "Celestial" as the official holy languages of Rauland? Used for all religious texts of any import and as the languages of High clerical ceremonies?

My character build is pretty much done except for Feats (waiting for a ruling on Knockback) and formating. One question *Jemal*: Can you pull coins out of a Bag of Random Stuff, and if so at what rate (1 coin for 1 stored, 1 for 2 stored)?


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## Scott DeWar (Oct 9, 2012)

B.Fred Thanks on the color comment, yes, that is the official color of the Holy order of  Jade dragon warriors. But just because they are holy will not mean they are under any one temple, rather they are a 'below the table' order serving the cause of good, avoiding the politics of religion completely.

sort of like being 'non denominational'.


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## kinem (Oct 10, 2012)

Binder Fred said:


> A further question while I'm at it: does Sigil exist in this version of the planes? The City of Doors is, in large part I think, a cludge to safely fit low level characters into a setting initially designed solely for high-level play. Since we already *are* high-level, I thought I'd ask.




Gotta say I disagree with that. I'm a fan of classic Planescape. It has some tasty flavor. Of course, I'm cool with whatever setting Jemal goes with.


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## Scott DeWar (Oct 10, 2012)

ok, still trying to grasp the haversack thing.

do I:
a. fill with single items of need
b. charge myself double cost
c. remove any single non magical item unlimited times as long as its in my list, and will fit in the container
d. halve the capacity of the storage item

If I finally got it, may I [shoot myself in the foot and] suggest a change of:

this
c. remove any single non magical item unlimited times as long as its in my list, and will fit in the container

to include  at the end:
currency items are restricted from the list so no one tries to put a 10 kilo ingot of platnium in the bag and pull unlimited quantities of ingots worth 22,000 gp each.


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## Binder Fred (Oct 10, 2012)

*Kinem:* Oh, I agree about the flavor. I had some nice times in Sigil. But when you adventure there, you're not walking the "realm of the Gods/Plains of the dead" anymore. They've had to make some (IMHO large) sacrifices to allow low-level mortals to shine here: pushing the Gods back into pretty much the same role they had on the Primes (back behind intermediaries again), lots of (relatively) low-level planar denizens that add very little to the proceedings, and please don't get me started on the drabness of memory-less petitioners (so the PCs aren't overwhelmed by a sea of Ancient Heroes and dead loved ones (because that would be, you know, cool, AND one of the prime reasons RL legendary heroes venture into the realms of the Gods?)). 

In all honesty, the Legends and Lore core of me always has this background desire to burn these interfering, self-important, *living* mortals off the face of the Outer Planes and wonders how the Gods can stand it: didn't they create the Primes specifically NOT to have to deal with these low-brow papparazi types directly?  More patient cutters than me, that's for sure. I get by by treating it as an entirely separate Prime Material setting (and a very interresting one at that!), with the *true* realm of the Gods somewhere else.


*Scott:* Alright, let me just pretend I'm the DM for a second, see how close I get.  I don't think the "unlimited" part is correct in your description... and I'm entirely sure you don't need to pull out the same supposed items you put in when you recharged the bag at a store. In fact, I think it works like this:

a. Go to a store where you buy an *unspecified* list of gear worth, say, 1000 gp.  
b. Later, you suddenly find out that you desperatly need a Corkscrew of Seduction (worth 100gp in any of your finer stores) to close an... important deal. Well, isn't it just incredibly lucky that you just happened to retroactively pack one? 
c. Take out corkscrew, substract 100 gp from the amount of unspecified items stored in the bag (substract 200gp instead if the corskscrew is magical, ruby-incrusted or the like AND you have a Type B bag). 900 gp left of unspecified gear in the bag.
d. Less clear on at happens when you put the corscrew *back* in the bag, though... Logic suggest that you *don't* get your money back, but can choose to either store the corskscrew in the plain "Bag of Holding" part of a Type B bag (or on your person if a type A bag), or simply discard it, loosing it in the big pile of "unspecified gear" that's also in the bag.
e. repeat when you next need a piece of gear that you didn't specifically buy (or loot off unsuspecting Aasimars).

So, if, as you say, you put a platinum bar in a Type A bag, I think you'll simply loose it in the junk and never find it again (you need to go to an actual store to recharge the bag and it doesn't have any storing capacity for "realized" objects). If you put a platinum bar in a Type B bag, it would just go in the "Bag of Holding" part of the bag and you could certainly pull that specific bar out again, without either actions affecting how much Random Stuff you have stored in the "Random Stuff" section of the bag (which, for story-telling reasons, can only be replenished in a store, like the type A)... Makes sense?


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## Jemal (Oct 10, 2012)

OK, to keep some of this stuff easier to tell apart, I'm using sblocks.  No secrets, just formatting.

[sblock=PLANES] There is no Sigil, but there is the Bazaar (Hinted at earlier).  Anybody who's ever read the M.Y.T.H. series knows it already.  For those of you who don't, it's basically a plane entirely devoted to commercialism.  It's a boundless scape of tents, roads, stands, and buildings, like an alternate prime, but whose entire purpose is based on trade.  Everything can be obtained.. but it all has a price.  There are no free or easy portals to other planes, if you can't get in/out by yourself, or afford to hire someone to get you in/out, then that's too bad for you.

The Bazaar is; like BF mentioned RE: Sigil; basically a separate prime plane.

The other planes are all the more 'legendary/divine' type.. if you go there, be prepared to explain your presence to the powerful beings whose homes you've just entered.

There are also numerous demiplanes that are less legendary/powerful, but also much less traveled and harder to access.
[/sblock]
[sblock=BAG OF STUFF] Basically what BF said.  You load it with a pre-determined amount of 'unspecified stuff'.  
Then, if you want something out of it, you pay based on which bag you have.

Bag A: deduct the cost of the item from the 'total' you had in the bag, but can only get non-magical/special items worth 100gp or less.  Once purchased, the item is now in your normal inventory.
EX : You buy a Bag of stuff with 200 gp of stuff in it (total cost 210 counting the bag).  Later you are adventuring and realize you need 100 feet of silk rope.  You deduct 20gp (the cost of 100' of silk rope) from your bag, and add 100' of silk rope to your items list.  You now have a bag with 180gp of still-unspecified stuff, and 100' of silk rope.  
You cannot 're-sell' stuff to a Bag A.
You may ONLY store stuff you pulled out of the bag in the bag.  It had room for it to begin with, but is too full to store anything else in.

Bag B: Same a bag A, except magical : holds more and you may pull special/expensive/magical items out, albeit at double the cost.
EX: You buy a Handy Haversack of stuff B with 10,000 GP of stuff in it. (Total cost=2,000 for haversack+10,000 'stuff' = 12,000 GP)
Later you want a wand of cure light wounds, so dig into the bag b/c you're "sure you packed one"... You pull one out and deduct (750X2) 1,500 GP, leaving you with a Haversack with 8,500 GP of stuff, and a wand of cure light wounds.
If you then wanted something more mundane, like the aforementioned rope, you would only deduct the normal cost, 20GP, leaving your bag with 8,480 GP of 'stuff'.
Bag B can store anything that was pulled from it, PLUS half of it's normal carrying capacity - It is half-filled with the 'random stuff' you filled it with at the last merchant.

In both cases (A and b) you cannot sell or resell stuff to the bag, or 'reload' how much stuff is in it without visiting a merchant.

Bag C - not really a bag, actually a portal.  This one you basically treat as a portable store, with the value changes listed. (Sell stuff to the store for half, buy stuff at +10%)

SPECIAL NOTE : I see no reason/benefit to have more than one of these bags, or different types.  Each one is basically just a more expensive, better version of the one beneath it...
OK, C is slightly different with the +10% thing.. it's better for buying special items, but slightly worse for buying mundane.. If you buy a C, it might be MILDLY beneficial to buy an A as well, but we're talking counting coppers at that point.. If you're gonna get a bigger bag, I'd suggest just go with one and don't bother with multiples.
[/sblock]
[sblock=Coinage]
I usually assume for simplicity that Adventurers can be carrying whatever form/denomination/amount of coins they wish on or about their person.  I'm not fond of keeping track of 'i have 258 platinum, 1003 gold, 3521 silver, and 245 copper'  
[/sblock]


> +1 Silk Shirt of Greater Stealth : Total cost=5,000 shirt + 1,000 Enhancement + 67,500 Greater Stealth(Silent moves/shadow) = 73,500 gp cost.
> I'll even let it give the 'Circlet of Persuasion' bonuses(equivalent 4,500) since you made it look so purdy.
> and you said the +1 enhancement is null vs the gtr mage armor, right?



Correct, it will NOT stack with the mage armour, however a minimum +1 enhancement is needed on any 'armour' before other things can be added (the silent moves/shadow).. basically it's a 2K tax on being allowed to put those on the item.

K, now for some specific stuff : 
Binder, where's this Ring/belt of divine might from?
Also, RE: Knockback - I've read the feat now, and would be willing to allow it to you, but keep in mind that since you aren't actually large, you do not get the large size bonus to the strength check.
Also, Shock Trooper is one of the reasons I was hesitant in the first place, the ability to basically choose your opponents position on the battlefield is exceptionally powerful, especially if any of your allies have ways to capitalize on it.

Kinem - I'm ok with all those items, and yes I would allow enhancements to ground speed to stack with fel flight, since it's not a 'double land speed' like some forms of flight.


Finally, to All - I would like to re-ask BF's question about religious characters.  Specifically, do any of you worship specific deities or causes, and if so, how devoutly?  In a planar campaign, things like this can be very important.


Did I miss anything/one?


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## Shayuri (Oct 10, 2012)

Well, if I make this character a reprise of Mei-Ying...which is my inclination at this point...then she'd have a complex relationship with an Eastern-themed pantheon styled loosely in the mold of Chinese folklore and its 'celestial bureaucracy.' 

It's not so much that she worships any of the gods within...but rather that she's pursuing a claim to become one of them. And of course, there's a whole quasi-Buddhist/Taoist philosophy that she subscribes to and that the gods of that tradition all do (though some in opposition to the order, of course).


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## Scott DeWar (Oct 11, 2012)

I am a bit limited on time, but, didn't getting a deal at the byzzarr bazzar have repercussions or ramifications?

Shirt
neat thing about that +1 is that it is there for any armor class!

type b haversack:
so, I 'load it with 20,000 gp
I need an  adamentine dagger, mundane item, so 3002 gp. done for now, so put in in the un packed half of storage

i run out of +1 arrows so [normal cost:230x gp for 50] so my cost would be 460x gp. put in efficient quiver, kill mean monster.

NOW, do i got it?


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## kinem (Oct 11, 2012)

Jemal said:


> ... do any of you worship specific deities or causes, and if so, how devoutly?




Braham nominally follows the four genie gods of the elements, as he is thought to have some genie blood, but not very devoutly. They don't take much interest in mortal affairs, and he mainly just invokes their names for casual curses and good natured blasphemy.


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## Binder Fred (Oct 11, 2012)

*Shayuri:* Don't you usually have to have a patron to get in with that kind of croud? (just a suggestion for a possible "deity"). 



Jemal said:


> *Coinage: *I usually assume for simplicity that Adventurers can be carrying whatever form/denomination/amount of coins they wish on or about their person.  I'm not fond of keeping track of 'i have 258 platinum, 1003 gold, 3521 silver, and 245 copper'



Let me rephrase my question then: Say Ur has put *all* his wealth into his Beltpouch of Random Stuff, not a solitary copper piece left on his listed gear. But then, he is suddenly in need of 200gp to pay for 'damages incured while in a friendly tousle with an ice giant'. Assuming he agrees with the claim, can he pull the 200gp from his Beltpouch of Random Stuff, and if so, does he substract 200 or 400gp from it's stored capacity?



Jemal said:


> Binder, where's this Ring/belt of divine might from?



Made it up using DMG rules: Base spell Divine Might (4th Cleric) X CL 20 X 1 800 gp (Standard action "prayer" to activate) X 3/5 for 3 daily activations, 20 rounds each = 86 400 gp... Hope I got that right?

Thanks for Knockback, by the way, and I don't think you have to worry about Shock Trooper: not enough Feat slots! (The monk and Psychic Fists are really Feat starved!)

On a related tack, I would have liked to have time to put a little IC bones on the bare stats, but anyways: I've pasted my Character in Progress in the rogue's gallery for review/comment (I'll swap-in Knockback when I have time to optimize). Was hoping to finish it this week-end, actually, but I've just learned that I'm leaving tomorrow for an emergency fill-in in the field (other geo had to leave for the hospital). I'll should be back next Tuesday, so I hope that won't delay game start too much?

Quick notes: Gloves of Arrows snaring, greater are just a 5/day version of their "lesser" 2/day cousin (multiplied cost by 2.5 to get rid of the original 2/5 divider). All items with multiple powers have the secondary power cost X1.5. Hope I don't have to pay the "inapropriate body slot" penalty on any of the substitutions I've made, as they all seem to fit thematically with their powers to me (paid the X2 cost "takes no body slot" modifier for the two item that, to my mind, didn't (Circlet of Rapid Casting and Empowerd Spell Shard)).


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## Shayuri (Oct 11, 2012)

Binder, not necessarily...though it is a possibility.

I'll need to discuss ideas with Jemal.


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## Jemal (Oct 11, 2012)

BF  - I'm gonna say it costs double to take currency out of the bag, b/c otherwise there's no reason not to throw every extra penny in there.

I only allow custom made items by characters that make the items themselves.

Scott  - 







> I am a bit limited on time, but, didn't getting a deal at the byzzarr bazzar have repercussions or ramifications?
> 
> Shirt
> neat thing about that +1 is that it is there for any armor class!
> ...



I wouldn't trust any 'deals' you get there, but not every merchant is going to try to screw you.  It's basically a giant trading ground.
The +1 from your shirt isn't to 'any' amour class, armour bonuses don't apply to touch ac. (Your mage armour wouldn't either, also being an armour bonus, though as a force effect it does apply to *Incorporeal* Touch ac.

Haversack : Almost.  Adamantine isn't mundane, though, so would be double.


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## Scott DeWar (Oct 11, 2012)

Jemal said:


> Scott  -
> I wouldn't trust any 'deals' you get there, but not every merchant is going to try to screw you.  It's basically a giant trading ground.
> The +1 from your shirt isn't to 'any' amour class, armour bonuses don't apply to touch ac. (Your mage armour wouldn't either, also being an armour bonus, though as a force effect it does apply to *Incorporeal* Touch ac.
> 
> Haversack : Almost.  Adamantine isn't mundane, though, so would be double.




deals - I was just thinking of the 'deals' they got in the books is all

shirt - will fix that

haversack - got it


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## Voda Vosa (Oct 11, 2012)

Is Tutek approved?


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## Binder Fred (Oct 12, 2012)

Jemal said:


> I'm gonna say it costs double to take currency out of the bag, b/c otherwise there's no reason not to throw every extra penny in there.




Makes sense, it's true.



Jemal said:


> I only allow custom made items by characters that make the items themselves.




(??). That seems like a peculiar restriction for a 20th level character, with supposedly a long history behind him. If it doesn't exist, can't he simply have it made? If he's willing to pay a fair price for it (as, you know, defined by the DMG), shouldn't he evetually find somebody willing to make it for him?


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## Scott DeWar (Oct 12, 2012)

ok, how about this:
I have listed items that won't fill but 10% of the haversack, items he has collected thus far such as expensive material components, we'll say. He has recently "refilled" the haversack for the amount I will determine shortly and list in the content break down at the bottom of the character sheet.


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## Jemal (Oct 12, 2012)

BF - the restriction is for balance.  The item creation chart is notoriously and hilariously broken, and I only allow its usage by people who are willing to spend feats and XP, and even then it's case by case.


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## Scott DeWar (Oct 12, 2012)

so, 8,300 gp for chariot of the clouds, I see?


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## Jemal (Oct 13, 2012)

Scott - what do you mean, 8,300?


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## Scott DeWar (Oct 13, 2012)

I took a gander ay Binder Fred's character sheet and at the bottom was his share listed as 8,300, so i thought i would ask if that is the correct amount.


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## Shayuri (Oct 13, 2012)

Time for a flurry of questions!

1) Jemal, I'm interested in a few MIC items. The Vest of the Archmagi for one, and possible runestaves. I realize runestaff costs were errated, so I need to find that info from the vast interweb before I know specifically which one I want.  Anyway, is there any guideline as far as what MIC items are available? Or is it strictly case by case? Similarly, there's some summoning-related items in Complete Mage, I believe, that I may be interested in.

2) Similar question regarding non-core sources for spells, such as Spell Compendium and PHB2 and the Completes.

3) This one's for Scott! Since we're both sorcerors I was looking over your sheet to make sure I didn't step on your dragonny toes. It was a little confusing though. Your caster level is 16, right? 6 sorceror, 5 abjurant champion, 1 rogue, 1 fighter, and 6 eldritch knight? You have it listed as 18 though, and you have the spell selection of a 19th level sorceror.  I realize it's a work in progress...I am just trying to coordinate with you a bit, so we can have distinct magical focus.

In the spirit of that cooperation, here's what I have so far...also a work in progress. 

[sblock=Very very rough protosheet]Str 10
Dex 18
Con 16
Int 12
Wis 16
Cha 18 (29 full boost, 34 w/tomes)

1st level monk
8 HP
24 sp
bonus feat: Improved Grapple? Stunning Fist? (DC 19+wismod)
Improved Unarmed attack: 1d6 unarmed dmg
Flurry of blows (2 atks, -2 to hit each)

18th level sorceror
18d6 hp
72 sp
Appraise
Bluff
Craft
Fly
Intimidate
heal
knowledge arcana
profession
spellcraft
UMD

BAB +9
Fort +8
Ref +8
Will +15

feats
b Point Blank Shot
1 Precise Shot
3 Spell Focus: Transmutation
6 Ascetic Mage
b Weapon Finesse
9 Empower Spell
12 Spell Penetration
b Iron Will
15 Greater Spell Focus: Transmutation
18 Heighten Spell

Base DC 22
6 slots all, 5 8th, 3 9th 
0 9
1 Enlarge Person, Magic Missile, Shocking Grasp, Shield, Grease, Bless
2 Dimension Hop, Knock, Invisibility, See Invisibility, Glitterdust, Resist Energy
3 Displacement, Phantom Steed, Suggestion, Wind Wall, Magic Circle v Evil
4 Orb of Force, Ennervation, Dimensional Anchor, Resilient Sphere, Remove Curse
5 Telekinesis, Wall of Stone, ?, ?, Flame Strike
6 Disintegrate, Analyze Dweomer, Greater Heroism? (Globe of Invuln?),  Greater Dispel
7 Spell Turning, Greater Teleport, Limited Wish, Banishment
8 Moment of Prescience, Polymorph Any Object, Sunburst
9 Summon Monster IX

Celestial
2 Bonus feats: Dodge, Extend Spell, Iron Will, Mobility, Mounted Combat, Ride By, Skill Focus: Knowledge Religion, Weapon finesse
Arcana: Summons gain 1/2lvl DR/evil
Hevenly Fire: 1d4+9 holy dmg/healing
Resist Acid/Cold 10
Wings of Heaven: Fly 60 Good 19min/day in 1min increments.
Conviction: Reroll ability check, atk roll, skill check or saving throw 1/day[/sblock]

I'm going for a focus on utility over pure blasting, and single-target blasts (Orb of Force...Disintegrate) as well as versatile impediment and 'debuff' attacks (Telekinesis...Polymorph Any Object). I elected to take a summon for my top level spell, so I'd have access to celestials who can use clerical support.


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## Scott DeWar (Oct 13, 2012)

Shayuri said:


> Time for a flurry of questions!
> 
> 3) This one's for Scott! Since we're both sorcerers I was looking over your sheet to make sure I didn't step on your dragonny toes. It was a little confusing though. Your caster level is 16, right? 6 sorcerer, 5 abjurant champion, 1 rogue, 1 fighter, and 6 eldritch knight? You have it listed as 18 though, and you have the spell selection of a 19th level sorcerer.  I realize it's a work in progress...I am just trying to coordinate with you a bit, so we can have distinct magical focus.




my calculation is:  6 sorcerer, 5 abjurant champion, 6 eldritch knight, but with Feat: Practiced Spellcaster (Char lv 6) Comp arcane pg 82

"Your caster level for the chosen spellcasting class increases by 4."

What it does is converts levels of non chosen caster levels [1 rogue, 1 fighter] into the chosen spell caster levels [sorcerer]. It is the same increase that the two prestige classes do: caster level effects, known spells and spells per day, but not class features. Actually, I think I might have short changed my self 1 level.

I do not think I can claim caster level increases from PRCs if there is a caster level increase feature, but the first level of eldritch knight is not an increase and fighter and rogue are counted, so it should read 19, not 18.

And thank you for not stepping on my delicate dragonny
*EGO!*​


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## Binder Fred (Oct 13, 2012)

Scott DeWar said:


> I took a gander ay Binder Fred's character sheet and at the bottom was his share listed as 8,300, so i thought i would ask if that is the correct amount.



Yes, I do think so. Jemal let us have the Charriot for 150K, minus the 100K party fund, that leaves 50k, divided by our six players: 8.3k each.

On the CL side though, I don't think Caster level affects Spells known or spells per day, as those are both determined by Class level. So you can cast, say, Fireball as a 20th level caster, but you are still an 18th level Soceror/E Knight. In fact... <checks Complete Arcane> the Feat description specifically states that it does NOT affect spells known and spells per day (last paragraph before the "special" section).



Jemal said:


> BF - the restriction is for balance.  The item creation chart is notoriously and hilariously broken, and I only allow its usage by people who are willing to spend feats and XP, and even then it's case by case.



Alright. So items from scratch are out... What about modified items? i.e. How custom is_ too _custom? I mean, Slot switching and existing item stacking is allowed in the character creation post. Can we then use the X2 cost "No space limitation" modifier (on the Circlet of Rapid Casting and Empowered Spell Shard), which would seem to go with the whole Slot switching theme? What about using the allowed stacking rules to stack two identical items together and, say, convert a 2/day item into a 4/day item (for my Gloves of Arrow Snaring for exemple)? 

If we take care of that, that leaves just two contentious items on my list:

-	First is the Goggles of True Seeing. Basically a Gem of True Seeing with a standard activation ("Lower goggles in place") combined with a 5/day Power Sight, also with a standard action to activate. I guess I can just pay the standard Gem of True Seeing cost (though at that price it's a "No Space Limitation" item) and drop the Power Sight side of it (which I thought was rather cool) if you want? (since there's obviously no existing magic item using a custom campaign spell)

-	Next is the Ring of Metal and Stone... +1 Metaline Gloves of Sundering are standard, so what if we replace the Ring of Earth Glide (that doesn't exist) with a "Cloak" of Etherealness and just substract the "invisible and incorporeal to non-ethereal living matter" power from it to get sort-of the effect I was going for? (Actually, at 55K, I can put *two* Cloaks of Etherealness together (for double the duration) and *still* be cheaper than the original Ring of Earthglide item!)

What do you think?



			
				Shayuri said:
			
		

> 1) Jemal, I'm interested in a few MIC items.



Are MIC items a problem? I also have a few. As, I believe, do all of the characters submitted to date.


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## Scott DeWar (Oct 14, 2012)

Binder Fred said:


> On the CL side though, I don't think Caster level affects Spells known or spells per day, as those are both determined by Class level. So you can cast, say, Fireball as a 20th level caster, but you are still an 18th level Soceror/E Knight. In fact... <checks Complete Arcane> the Feat description specifically states that it does NOT affect spells known and spells per day (last paragraph before the "special" section).




And thanks for stepping on my
* delicate dragonny EGO!*​ Binder fred!!

*sob*
*sniff* 
*pout*

ok, seriously:

it looks like it just got a bit complicated then
caster level for effects only: 19
caster level for spells known, and per day, but not for class features: 16
caster level for features: 6


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## Jemal (Oct 14, 2012)

Ok, at work so just quick post re:Scotts casting.

You have two different casting levels.
Your actual spellcasting ability is 16, your effective caster level is 19.
You have spells known/ per day as a 16th level sorc, but all your level based effects are treated as a 19th level sorc.. Damage on a chain lightning, range on spells, CL for staves, etc.

Not sure what your 'caster level for features' is..  If you mean bloodline powers/etc, then I believe you're correct, bit thats not really 'caster' level, just 'class' level.


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## Scott DeWar (Oct 15, 2012)

Jemal said:


> Not sure what your 'caster level for features' is..  If you mean bloodline powers/etc, then I believe you're correct, bit thats not really 'caster' level, just 'class' level.




correct: bloodline powers and such.


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## Jemal (Oct 15, 2012)

MIC : As with all sources not on the list, everything is case by case.  If it's not on my list of sources, I don't have easy access to a book, and will need to know what the spell/feat/item does before I can rule.

SOURCES: 
For those who missed it in the creation post, The available sources are : 
Core, Races of the Dragon, Draconomicon, PHB2, and Completes: arcane, adventurer, Mage, Warrior, Scoundrel.  [
I do also have an MIC, but it isn't on the list b/c I'm not very familiar with it and will need specific items pointed out so I can check them.
Also, a special note as I believe I've already stated, I'm fine with much of the MIC stuff I've seen, but I sometimes have issues with X/day items.




> Jemal, I'm interested in a few MIC items. The Vest of the Archmagi for one, and possible runestaves. I realize runestaff costs were errated, so I need to find that info from the vast interweb before I know specifically which one I want.  Anyway, is there any guideline as far as what MIC items are available? Or is it strictly case by case? Similarly, there's some summoning-related items in Complete Mage, I believe, that I may be interested in.



Runestaves are OK, I use them all the time so I'm familiar with them.  Feel free to use the un-errated prices if you have trouble finding the new stuff.  
I also like the vest, its ok.



> So items from scratch are out... What about modified items? i.e. How custom is too custom? I mean, Slot switching and existing item stacking is allowed in the character creation post. Can we then use the X2 cost "No space limitation" modifier (on the Circlet of Rapid Casting and Empowered Spell Shard), which would seem to go with the whole Slot switching theme? What about using the allowed stacking rules to stack two identical items together and, say, convert a 2/day item into a 4/day item (for my Gloves of Arrow Snaring for exemple)?



OK, the x2 no space limitation is ok if you don't go overboard on it, or use it for times/day items.
Stacking the same item for extra charges would cost +50%, like any other stacking.  I would ask that you use this sparringly, I'm not fond of times/day items.  Also you will need to keep an OOC block in your posts detailing how many of each times/day ability/item you have used/remaining for the current day, so if you buy a whole bunch, that's a lot of record keeping (cuz i'm not doing it for u.  )

*ON THAT NOTE : 
I've had a minor change of heart on items.. I will allow minor changes on items, such as removing a 'times/day' restriction.  For example, the previously mentioned greater gloves of arrow snaring are OK
Sorry for the flip-flopping.
*



> -	First is the Goggles of True Seeing. Basically a Gem of True Seeing with a standard activation ("Lower goggles in place") combined with a 5/day Power Sight, also with a standard action to activate. I guess I can just pay the standard Gem of True Seeing cost (though at that price it's a "No Space Limitation" item) and drop the Power Sight side of it (which I thought was rather cool) if you want? (since there's obviously no existing magic item using a custom campaign spell)



I kinda like these goggles, actually.  
Idea : use one Gem of Seeing set in a headband device that holds it in front of one eye, add the powersight, and call it a scouter.  
Seriously though, Lets see..
While the gem is 'technically' slotless, it does normally require you to gaze through it to activate it anyways, so assigning it to your 'eye' slot shouldn't reduce the cost at all.. in fact, it makes it EASIER to use, by removing the requirement to dig it out and hold it in one hand.  
Hows this : I'll give you True sight 30 min/day (standard action to activate, swift to deactivate) split into rounds/mins as required(like the gem), and Powersight unlimited usage, swift action activation.
Total cost 100K




> -	Next is the Ring of Metal and Stone... +1 Metaline Gloves of Sundering are standard, so what if we replace the Ring of Earth Glide (that doesn't exist) with a "Cloak" of Etherealness and just subtract the "invisible and incorporeal to non-ethereal living matter" power from it to get sort-of the effect I was going for? (Actually, at 55K, I can put *two* Cloaks of Etherealness together (for double the duration) and *still* be cheaper than the original Ring of Earth glide item!)



I'm torn on this.. on the one hand, It's an interesting item and I'm tempted to allow the earth gliding.  On the other hand, I've had really bad experiences with incorporeal/ethereal/burrowing/'ignore obstacle' spells...
Hows this : I'll let you have the original earth glide item, but if I feel you're abusing it, I'll have to do something about it.   Sound kosher?



Final Word:
OK, I still haven't had time to look over the characters much.. sick, injured, just moved into a new place, insert more whining excuses here.. lol 

Anyways, if there's something specific about your character you still feel needs addressing please post about it, I will look the posted characters over as I am able.  Also, If I missed anything please just repost it.


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## kinem (Oct 15, 2012)

Shayuri said:


> I'm going for a focus on utility over pure blasting, and single-target blasts (Orb of Force...Disintegrate) as well as versatile impediment and 'debuff' attacks (Telekinesis...Polymorph Any Object). I elected to take a summon for my top level spell, so I'd have access to celestials who can use clerical support.




Polymorph Any Object is a save-or-lose spell, so don't get it. Disintegrate is quite iffy in that regard as well. Do you want Jemal using these spells on us?

Yes, you could avoid using the spells for situations when they would be the most useful like fighting bosses, but that's just in-character stupidity, and I would not want to be part of a game like _that_.

I've nerfed my warlock quite a bit to avoid M.A.D.


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## Shayuri (Oct 15, 2012)

Disintegrate just does damage, it's not save-or-lose. It's also subject to touch AC, miss chances, spell resistance...there's lots of ways to defend against it.

Pmorph Any Object has a save-or-lose component in that it can emulate Baleful Polymorph or Flesh to Stone, but its utility FAR transcends that. Even if I never turn an enemy into a fish, it's still super useful I would think.

Any other ideas/opinions on this matter?


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## Scott DeWar (Oct 15, 2012)

kinem said:


> Polymorph Any Object is a save-or-lose spell, so don't get it. Disintegrate is quite iffy in that regard as well. Do you want Jemal using these spells on us?
> 
> Yes, you could avoid using the spells for situations when they would be the most useful like fighting bosses, but that's just in-character stupidity, and I would not want to be part of a game like _that_.
> 
> I've nerfed my warlock quite a bit to avoid M.A.D.




with the exception of Limited wish, I don't have any of those instant kill/difuse buttons. fyi!


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## Scott DeWar (Oct 15, 2012)

A new question: are there languages of particular areas?
common might be a trade/travel tongue, but home port might speak King's tongue or something.


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## kinem (Oct 15, 2012)

Shayuri said:


> Pmorph Any Object has a save-or-lose component in that it can emulate Baleful Polymorph or Flesh to Stone, but its utility FAR transcends that. Even if I never turn an enemy into a fish, it's still super useful I would think.




That doesn't help; if you fail to use it as a save-or-lose when you know it could be, you are intentionally holding back or being stupid IC.

What you _could_ do is ask Jemal for a nerfed version of the spell, that wouldn't affect creatures, just as he let me take a nerfed version of Noxious Blast.


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## Shayuri (Oct 15, 2012)

I see no problem with having a character who chooses not to use spells in their most deadly expressions due to moral/ethical or other considerations...and who is also not stupid.

But I will take one piece of your advice, which is to take the matter up with Jemal. 

Mister GM, if we could get your weigh-in here?


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## Scott DeWar (Oct 15, 2012)

also see how pathfinder changed p morph spells


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## Shayuri (Oct 15, 2012)

Yeah, but it doesn't matter. This is a 3.5e game first.

So the only Pathfinder spell descriptions we'll be using are the ones that are only in Pathfinder. Any spell that's in both of them will be using the 3.5e rules.

That's my take on what Jemal's said so far.


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## Scott DeWar (Oct 15, 2012)

But if he is wanting to cut down on save or die stuff, pf worked that in as one of the objectives. That is all I was implying.


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## Jemal (Oct 15, 2012)

> Yeah, but it doesn't matter. This is a 3.5e game first.
> 
> So the only Pathfinder spell descriptions we'll be using are the ones that are only in Pathfinder. Any spell that's in both of them will be using the 3.5e rules.
> 
> That's my take on what Jemal's said so far.




Correct.




> That doesn't help; if you fail to use it as a save-or-lose when you know it could be, you are intentionally holding back or being stupid IC.




I wholeheartedly disagree with you.  You're basically saying "Ever Using anything other than your most lethal alternative is stupid".. and I personally think that's ridiculous.
PaO for example - PaO is one of my favourite spells, as a self-styled 'transmuter extraordinaire', I give it to every character capable of casting it... and I've NEVER (To my recollection, I have been playing for like 15 years..) used it (directly) against a boss.  (And I've played a LOT of high level mages in several combat-heavy and long running campaigns)
As a long-time Power gamer, and much-accused Twink I cant think of anybody who'd ever call how I play 'holding back'.  Especially not b/c I don't use PaO as a 'save or' spell.  And I can only think of a few people who would ever refer to me as stupid (And that's cuz they're bigger stupid-heads!  )
As Shayuri said, it's utility is far too useful, and it's usage on living creatures is part of that utility.. Not just as a boss killer, but using it on allies, lesser foes, or even random wildlife.  (flock of pigeons flying over town + chained PaO = Horde of Rhinos falling into town. MUAHAHA).
Or the ever useful "polymorph tons of rock into a carrot.  Polymorph second pile of rock into bunny.  give carrot to bunny and FRAG OUT!  Interesting way to destroy small cities.

Disintegrate CAN deal a lot of damage, but as shayuri said, it requires a touch attack, SR, AND Saving throw (which reduces the damage to the equivalent of a magic missile), and even if you get it to work at full strength, it's still not a guaranteed kill. 
38d6 at this CL is avg 133 hp.. even max (without Metamagic) it's only 228.  I can guarantee you that's not going to one shot any boss you guys fight.  Add to that the fact that there are lots of spells with more Damage potential at this level.. and most of them don't allow saves.

other examples: Telekinesis can also be used as a save or loose spell, but that's not its primary function, nor what most mages use it for.
you could Shapechange into a creature with a save-or ability, and some Summonable monsters fall into the same category, so does that mean these spells should be classified as 'Save Or'?
Just because you're not using the most broken/powerful trick available doesn't mean you're holding back/being stupid.  Trust me, several of the people I game with know way more broken/powerful tricks than I do.  We like coming up with them, but actually using them is.. meh.  It's like cheating at a video game.  Sure the concept of invincibility and golden bullets is entertaining, but it gets boring after a very short while.


Side Note - The reason I don't use Save or spells Personally when I'm PLAYING isn't b/c of MAD, or b/c I'm holding back.. it's because I'm NOT holding back.  I HATE the feeling of using a big nasty spell, and... nothing happens.  The guy saved, better luck next time.  I avoid 'death spells' b/c I don't like all-or-nothing, it has absolutely nothing to do with holding back.  
I saw a 1-on-1 game once where someone played a death mage.  It was pretty much Roll saves for the badguy till he fails, then figure out how much damage he deals to the death mage in that many rounds.  *yawn* next fight?

I understand that, properly designed you can get a character with a 'death spell' that's extremely hard to resist, but for that point, I could also make a character who deals such ridiculous damage nothing can survive.. both I find boring..  It's got nothing to do with which is stronger, just which is more entertaining.  
Nobody's ever 'honestly' accused my mages of being less-than effective. 
*This is just when I'm PLAYING, my reasons as a DM are different.  Encounters seem much more entertaining and challenging without the 'instakill' possibility.




> What you _could_ do is ask Jemal for a nerfed version of the spell, that wouldn't affect creatures, just as he let me take a nerfed version of Noxious Blast.



To the second half, 
The difference with noxious blast is that it's MADE to be used as an attack, it doesn't have any other purpose.. and really, it's not much of a nerf, we both thought it was 1 round and still were willing to use it, showing how powerful it still is even like that.  as a full minute, it's pretty OP (Especially when you account for the fact that a warlock can literally cast it all day long)



A Note : I think some people are going a bit overboard on the MAD-lookout.  It was meant as a way of saying "Don't be giant bags of feminine hygiene product", but now things seem to be getting looked at as a "Do I want the DM having access to this".  
I use MAD to avoid 'cast spell end encounter'
Weird, Finger of Death, Imprisonment, Dominate, Hideous Laughter, Irresistible dance, flesh to stone, etc.
Things that are, flat out, primary purpose: "Use: if opponent isn't immune & fails save, you win."


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## Binder Fred (Oct 16, 2012)

Jemal said:


> *ON THAT NOTE :
> I've had a minor change of heart on items.. I will allow minor changes on items, such as removing a 'times/day' restriction.  For example, the previously mentioned greater gloves of arrow snaring are OK
> Sorry for the flip-flopping.*



Certainly won't hear *me* complaining. 

*[Ring of Stone and Earth]*


Jemal said:


> I'm torn on this.. on the one hand, It's an interesting item and I'm tempted to allow the earth gliding.  On the other hand, I've had really bad experiences with incorporeal/ethereal/burrowing/'ignore obstacle' spells...
> Hows this : I'll let you have the original earth glide item, but if I feel you're abusing it, I'll have to do something about it.   Sound kosher?



Very much so. And the spell specifically states that it only applies to "Stone, dirt and all kinds of earths" (which means he can't go through wood, plants/living matter or (probably) bone, for one) and then goes on to exclude all metals. So you've got plenty of fairly realistic ways of blocking/manipulating the power at crucial points if need be -- besides the old anti-magic zone, that is. 

*[Googles of True Sight]*


Jemal said:


> Hows this : I'll give you True sight 30 min/day (standard action to activate, swift to deactivate) split into rounds/mins as required(like the gem), and Powersight unlimited usage, swift action activation.
> Total cost 100K



Wow. Ask and yee shall receive, eh?

I'm probably going to regret this, but are you sure about the Power Sight bit? I mean, this way can't he have it on all the time without any downside at all?  Maybe tie it to a certain time-cost on the True Sight duration instead, say -30 seconds per use or the like?


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## Voda Vosa (Oct 16, 2012)

Man you guys are taking some time to build your characters! Mine is done in the second page, weeks ago! Hurry up damn it!


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## Shayuri (Oct 16, 2012)

lol

I've been through about five concepts now, and have fully developed three, before discarding two of them. Mechanics on the final are done now. I just need to do items. But for that I need books, which means it has to happen after I get home.

Sorry for the wait. Y'all can get started without me if you like. I can have my character join in after the fact.


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## Scott DeWar (Oct 16, 2012)

J' is still going over the sheets and trying to recover from a finger nail being torn off *shudder* and recover from moving. I type with one hand for now, so I feel the pain on that [actual pain mostly covered by medication] and i just moved at the end of july. I understand his being slow.


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## Binder Fred (Oct 21, 2012)

Posted my (I hope) finished character over in the Rogue's Gallery. I also added a "Power explanation" sblock which mentions some possible past adventures for the group, go ahead and read that folks.    [MENTION=9026]Jemal[/MENTION], can I take Improved Bull Rush (instead of Improved Grapple) for my Monk Feats? *Realy* fealing the weight of the monk's limited Feat slots...

RE backgrounds, how oriental is your PC, *Shayuri*? Would she fit in Rauland as described...? Or maybe, as the country is just bare bones right now, we could make Rauland more oriental so she fits in? Scott's character already has some elements in there (a sensei, dragons, secret societies, etc). We could make a simple ethnical tweek to the entire population of the country/continent (almond eyes, skin tones), Gods are still up in the air as well, and voila! I even already mention a crumbling, province-spanning wall in Ur's "Power Explanation" bit, so it would be *perfect*!

OR, we could go the other way instead? Say that the company is characterized by being mostly foreigners -- sort of a Foreign Legion kind of a deal? 

Or we can do both, of course: a foreign legion *within* an oriental-themed kingdom.


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## Jemal (Oct 21, 2012)

Olla, folks. 
Well site's back (And running fairly smoothly), so I'm going to start going over the posted characters.



> I'm probably going to regret this, but are you sure about the Power Sight bit? I mean, this way can't he have it on all the time without any downside at all? Maybe tie it to a certain time-cost on the True Sight duration instead, say -30 seconds per use or the like?



Well it does have a swift action usage and an instant duration.  You can still only scan one person per swift action, and it doesn't 'stay on'.  It's basically just "click.. OK that guy's ECL 28, we might be in trouble..." And then you get a +5 to knowledge/gather info checks about him if made within the next hour.  
I'm not sure if psychic fists have any swift action abilities, if not then yeah you could basically have it on all the time.
How bout I just add a minor 'have to push button' requirement? You have to push a button or adjust the glasses with your hand to turn it on, so people might know you'e activating it, and if your hands are full (Which as a monk shouldn't be too often), or you're immobilized, you cant use it - but it's still just a swift action.



> Gods are still up in the air as well, and voila!



 Any pantheon is OK by me.  Feel free to take from existing RL, printed stuff, or whatever.  Some will play a larger part in the mythos (Which I should be posting after I go over the characters) but I can modify that to suit whatever fits the party.


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## Jemal (Oct 21, 2012)

OK, First character: VV - I know you've been waiting a while. 
First off, I love the background, and kudos on the little 'horde/alliance' jokes.  I'da given you XP, but I don't spread it enough apparently 

SO, I won't be fully crunching the numbers on these characters this time (I want to finish today, lol) But nothing at a glance looks too far off - Your Stats don't look obscenely high or weak, and nothing really jumps out at me to say "NO"
Only problem i see so far is that those potions of reduce person won't work on you, ogres are humans, so enlarge/reduce don't work on them.  Sry.
*Also, I'm not the kind of guy who usually does this kinda thing, but remember that Ioun stones are vulnerable to attack/grabbing.*


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## Jemal (Oct 22, 2012)

OK, and I'm back. Was away for the day.
Anyways, on to the rest 

Kinem - 
As with VV, I didn't do all the math but see no problems.

Scott & BF - those tiny scroll boxes are difficult to navigate/read, so I'm going to copy-paste your characters into wordpads so I can read them.  Will post up my thoughts soon.


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## Jemal (Oct 22, 2012)

Binder - 
Are all your psychic powers available for me to look up in the SRD? If not, which books are they from and what do they do?

You don't have your race/Class levels listed in the statblock, but looking through the sheet I assume you're dwarven monk 11/Psychic Fist 9?
I'm assuming from the fact that your feat list goes from "monk 11" to "psychic fist 12" that you took PF at lvl 12.

Please list how many skill points went into each skill, not just the total.

A note re: Psionic Quicken : As with Quicken spell, this should be a swift action, not free.

Equipment:
Not sure why you separated item location/description from item cost/stats, but that's a aesthetic choice on your part, not really relevant.

Remember that manuals don't stack, so if you've read a manual+1, future manuals will replace it, not stack with it (So to get the total +5 inherent, you'd need to read a full +5 manual, not just another +4 added onto your +1)

Ring of regeneration is 90K base.  Swapping it to a head slot would change that to 135. 

I could find no 'ring of roaring armor' in the MIC.  what page is it on, cuz it's not listed under rings. *Also checked torc, not under that either*

I also couldn't find empowered spell shards, what page?

Goggles - Powersight is a swift action to activate, there are no 'quick' actions (Did you mean free?)

Belt of divine Prayer - A few issues with this item.
First, I think I already said no to this custom item (Though I thought it was divine might before)
Second, don't know the math you used on it but keep in mind that Wis mods on a belt would be outside affinity, so an additional 50% (Total of double cost to add to an existing item)
Finally, you have it listed as belt/ring, which is it?

*Actually, most of your items are listed under multiple body slots.  I'm assuming the first is what they ARE and the second is the standard body slot the powers on the item are from? (IE 'earring with powers of Ring of regeneration, but using head slot')


Finally, just a minor thing : I'm assuming the stuff you have 'loaded in belt pouch' is supposed to be a backpack, since you might fit tools in a belt pouch, but not a bedroll or gauntlet.  (Those things are pretty small)


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## Jemal (Oct 22, 2012)

Scott - 
OK, first thing : Spells
As we talked about earlier, your spellcasting should be as such: 
Sorc 6, EK 4, AC 5, Practiced 4.
The 4 from practiced ONLY applies to the effects of spells, not to how many you can cast, how many you know, or what level of spells you can cast.  
For anything on the "spells per day/Spells known" chart, you are effectively _level 15._
Your CL for determining the EFFECT of those spells (damage dealt, range, duration, etc) is 19 (15+4).  For Acid spells, this would be 20 due to your acidic splatter feat.

So for example, your spells known would be : 
9 Cantrips, 5 First Lvl; 5 Second Lvl; 4 third lvl; 4 Fourth Lvl; 4 Fifth Lvl; 3 Sixth Lvl; 2 Seventh Lvl

Haven't done the math yet, so not sure if you did this, but as the only character who took an INT boosting item, I figured I should remind you that INT bonuses from items do not grant Skill points/Languages, so with a +6 int item, your base int of 14 is what would be used for skill point calculation and languages known.

There is no fly skill in 3.5, what you can do is based off your maneuverability class and any applicable feats/spells/items.

Combat : you have your attacks listed with "off hand att at -2/-7/"
Two weapon fighting doesn't just give the -2 atk penalty to your OFF hand, it allows you to take one extra attack using your highest BAB with your off hand weapon, but you take a -2 penalty on ALL attacks made till your next turn.


You have several scrolls listed as 'made himself'.  Please note how much XP you spent on this and how much you have remaining.  
Also, why take so many crafting feats and not use any but that one?
On that note, I would not suggest more than one or two Crafting feats.  If you're using it to gain extra gold at the cost of XP, just take one feat and craft some expensive stuff.  Taking multiples is only useful if you have specific items in mind you want to craft.  
If its for RP reasons, I would still suggest against more than 1, _maybe_ two feats, b/c you're seriously hampering your character.. Just SAY he's a crafter, give him one or two, and treat the rest as fluff.

Also on equipment, I see you've taken a weapon of Disruption - Be aware that special/important Undead (Bosses/characters) Will be protected from such mundane methods of dispatch.


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## Jemal (Oct 22, 2012)

Hmm, with so many who said they wanted to play, I thought we'd have more than that..

I know Shayuri's still working on it.  Is that all then, shall I close the game with these five?


I'll give a few more days for people to post rough drafts to the RG, then close recruitment so we can get the finishing touches on and start.

NOW, as far as story goes - I'm liking how you guys have been building off each other, maybe a bit more of how you got together?

Also, I'm going to say one thing for sure - the Rauland draught was NOT the most recent adventure, though may have been the first time all of you worked together.  The last adventure you were on is from the plot, so I'll be giving you the info on it, for now I'll just tell you that it was a very Epic war against a powerful Arch-Lich.

As far as the 'clues' that will start you on your planar quest, I have a question for all of you : 
Would you prefer me to actually give you clues/riddles and let you guys figure it out, 
OR
Start after you've 'put it together', and tell you what your characters have figured out so you can start the adventuring part.


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## Scott DeWar (Oct 22, 2012)

I was in the middle of making some of the changes when the sight went down![grrrrr]

will work on all the stuff shortly....


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## Scott DeWar (Oct 22, 2012)

Jemal said:


> Scott -
> OK, first thing : Spells
> As we talked about earlier, your spellcasting should be as such:
> Sorc 6, EK 4, AC 5, Practiced 4.
> ...




done to here



> Combat : you have your attacks listed with "off hand att at -2/-7/"
> Two weapon fighting doesn't just give the -2 atk penalty to your OFF hand, it allows you to take one extra attack using your highest BAB with your off hand weapon, but you take a -2 penalty on ALL attacks made till your next turn.




regarding this, I had the proper math, just not mentioned about the primary hand.


****ready for a recheck***​


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## Moon_Goddess (Oct 22, 2012)

I've been thinking about joining these but I'm not sure if I'm in too many games.....


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## Shayuri (Oct 23, 2012)

Jemal! I think just one last question, and I'll be ready today to post.

Maybe two.

I'd like to buy a Runestaff of Power, which is a +2 quarterstaff with various other abilities which sells for the errataed price of 59,300gp. This is a much fairer price than the 30-odd thousand in the MIC, considering all that it does.

I'd like to increase its enhancement bonus to +5 though. Doing this, would I just pay the difference between a +2 and a +5 weapon (34,000)? Or do you rule that the various other abilities the runestaff has would count as additional "virtual" plusses that must be paid for?

The second is that I'm working out this character's background, but it's not easy tracing what's been worked out by others over all the posts of the thread...any chance I could get a brief recap, or summary, so I can find the points where I can tie myself in?  This question is for anyone/everyone, by the way, not just Jemal.


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## Scott DeWar (Oct 23, 2012)

I am playing a secret society dragon warrior kinda thing. Does that help?
Also, I was curious as to what that 'like' button does, so I punched it.


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## Scott DeWar (Oct 23, 2012)

[MENTION=9026]Jemal[/MENTION]:

are there local languages? such as common being a trade tongue, but each kingdom or empire has a language?


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## Jemal (Oct 23, 2012)

[MENTION=4936]Shayuri[/MENTION] I actually have used a 'greater rune staff of power' a few times, and that's basically what I did for it.  
I also upped the times/day from 1 to 3, calculating the +2 Luck bonus as separate and worth 20,000, then subtracting the weapon value (8,300 for a +2) and doubling the remainder to get 3/day usage... But that's entirely beside the point.

As far as backgrounds, I'd suggest just reading the character bios in the RG, that's pretty much what I've got on it.  I don't have the time ATM to go through and do a compilation, but if someone else does, feel more than welcome. 

Scott - Yes, probably, though for the purposes of this campaign they'll be more background info.  If everyone would like their own 'national language' feel free to make one up (or steal from RL) as a free bonus


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## Binder Fred (Oct 23, 2012)

Jemal said:
			
		

> Are all your psychic powers available for me to look up in the SRD? If not, which books are they from and what do they do?



They are all from the Expanded Psionics Handbook (EPH) and are all, indeed, available on the SRD. I've also listed a short description of what they do on my character sheet.



			
				Jemal said:
			
		

> You don't have your race/Class levels listed in the statblock, but looking through the sheet I assume you're dwarven monk 11/Psychic Fist 9?



Correct. (It's listed in the post title ). 


			
				Jemal said:
			
		

> *Actually, most of your items are listed under multiple body slots. I'm assuming the first is what they ARE and the second is the standard body slot the powers on the item are from? (IE 'earring with powers of Ring of regeneration, but using head slot')



Correct.


			
				Jemal said:
			
		

> Goggles - Powersight is a swift action to activate, there are no 'quick' actions (Did you mean free?)




Swift. Corrected.


			
				Jemal said:
			
		

> Please list how many skill points went into each skill, not just the total




Done.



			
				Jemal said:
			
		

> A note re: Psionic Quicken : As with Quicken spell, this should be a swift action, not free.



Uh, well, actually, the SRD says: "Casting a quickened spell is a free action." 

Doesn't make much difference for spells, actually, but as most psionic powers are either Swifts or can be made into Swifts (even without the Quicken Power Feat), Quicken Power as a Swift instead of a Free would therefore actually be a big deal.... Ruling?



			
				Jemal said:
			
		

> I could find no 'ring of roaring armor' in the MIC. what page is it on, cuz it's not listed under rings. *Also checked torc, not under that either*



Roaring is a +1 Armor property from the MIC (p.14) which I added to the <checks> *Bracers* of Armor component of Ur's Torc of Dragon Scales. It gives +4 competence bonus to initiative and auto return of non-magical range weapons that do 10 dam or less (took it almost entirely for the ini bonus, though I guess the second part *could* be useful if we ever face a massed army of commoners ).

So the Torc is built from Bracers of Armor +3 (Roaring), an Amulet of Natural Armor +3 and a Ring of Protection +4. Torcs are and remain strong items of protection, but I could always swap my Bracers of Mighty Fists (originally an Amulet, if that makes sense to you) for the Torc if "appropriate Slots" poses a problem? I just love the look of the scaled metal torc around his neck with the two tiny dragon heads at his collar bone. 



			
				Jemal said:
			
		

> I also couldn't find empowered spell shards, what page?



MIC p.96. X1.5 dam for a single spell/power (Energy Burst in this case).


			
				Jemal said:
			
		

> Belt of divine Prayer - A few issues with this item.
> First, I think I already said no to this custom item (Though I thought it was divine might before)
> Second, don't know the math you used on it but keep in mind that Wis mods on a belt would be outside affinity, so an additional 50% (Total of double cost to add to an existing item)
> Finally, you have it listed as belt/ring, which is it?



I kept the name as I liked the religious connotation of the originally proposed Divine Might item, ditched the nixed custom aspects of it, as agreed. As for the slot thing, what if I shape it in the form of long string of prayer beads he wears wrapped around his waist?



			
				Jemal said:
			
		

> Finally, just a minor thing : I'm assuming the stuff you have 'loaded in belt pouch' is supposed to be a backpack, since you might fit tools in a belt pouch, but not a bedroll or gauntlet. (Those things are pretty small)



The "beltpouch" is his Bag of Holding I. He just happens to wear it at his belt.  

Will work on working in the added cost of the Wis in the Belt and the Regeneration on the Earrings (though why a ring is appropriate for Regeneration and an earring isn't beats the heck out of me... Ah well.).


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## Shayuri (Oct 24, 2012)

Jemal, very cool!

You don't happen to have the final cost of that upgraded version do you?


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## Binder Fred (Oct 24, 2012)

Shayuri said:


> The second is that I'm working out this character's background, but it's not easy tracing what's been worked out by others over all the posts of the thread...any chance I could get a brief recap, or summary, so I can find the points where I can tie myself in?  This question is for anyone/everyone, by the way, not just Jemal.



Hey there  [MENTION=4936]Shayuri[/MENTION]. Got ninja'd by Jemal (that's what happens when you do three things at once), but yeah, your best bet is actually the Rogue's Gallery. Tutek and Braham are there, and I've copied my own thoughts on shared backgrounds in the "Rough Background" sblock (I've also got some possible past adventures for the party thrown into the "Power Explanation" sblock if you're interrested). Scott's character background is over here and please look at this post for a possible idea about "orientalizing" the country/continent to fit your PC (I rather like the last option, personnaly ).


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## Jemal (Oct 24, 2012)

Quick post then gotta scoot:

 [MENTION=63746]Binder Fred[/MENTION] Actually I use d20srd, which keeps up to date and doesn't include any home brew, unlike the D&D wiki.
Feats :: d20srd.org



> Roaring is a +1 Armor property from the MIC (p.14) which I added to the <checks> *Bracers* of Armor component of Ur's Torc of Dragon Scales. It gives +4 competence bonus to initiative and auto return of non-magical range weapons that do 10 dam or less (took it almost entirely for the ini bonus, though I guess the second part *could* be useful if we ever face a massed army of commoners ).



Actually, I don't allow armor properties on bracers, only the straight enhancements.  I know there's a rule somewhere (MIC maybe?) that allows for it, but I feel it's wrong.. It's part of what keeps bracers balanced with armour.. the armour has weight, armour check penalty, spell failure, and class restrictions but allows usage of the armour properties.  I think it's a fair trade.


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## Binder Fred (Oct 24, 2012)

Jemal said:


> Actually I use d20srd, which keeps up to date and doesn't include any home brew, unlike the D&D wiki.



Well that makes Quicken Power a lot less useful then (as it can now only be used to advantage on 4 of my 10 powers known)... I'll have to think about it. Maybe Shock Trooper is the way to go after all.



Jemal said:


> Actually, I don't allow armor properties on bracers, only the straight enhancements.  I know there's a rule somewhere (MIC maybe?) that allows for it, but I feel it's wrong.. It's part of what keeps bracers balanced with armour.. the armour has weight, armour check penalty, spell failure, and class restrictions but allows usage of the armour properties.  I think it's a fair trade.



Goodby little torc of dragons. <sniff>


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## Shayuri (Oct 24, 2012)

I shall read the RG at once.

As for 'orientalizing' the game world, I think it works fine if my character is from a far off/exotic locale. Perhaps there's something like a Silk Road in the world, where trade between the distant Empire and this land can flow.

My character's quest then took her here, partly in search of knowledge outside the realm, and partly to help her avoid 'Imperial Entanglements.' At least for much of her adventures. More recently, the faction that she was up against was outmanuevered, allowing her more free access to her homeland. Of course, by then she liked it here too. 

Okay, assuming we go with Binder's framework, which seems very good to me, then I'd install a natural barrier to Rauland opposite the border with Dorminth; a mountain range spanning the eastern side of the country. On the other side of those mountains is a desert...and through that desert, if one knows the ways, one can eventually arrive at a place who's name comes roughly to Eternal Empire of the Jade Throne, or sometimes by an older name _Under the Five Pillars of Heaven._ The 'pillars' are a ring of tall, unusually narrow mountains that surround the Empire's outer perimeter, creating a barrier of sorts that helps keep it moist and temperate despite the nearby arid area...as well as forming a natural defense against intruders.

Trade with the Eternal Empire comes via merchants who pay desert tribes to convey them along routes that use the few oases in carefully planned legs that allow them to cross the barren white sands without, quite, dehydrating. The goods that come from this are luxury goods, in fashion with the wealthy who are always in search of something new that their peers don't have or can't get...and can pay the exorbitant sums that would entice a man to take the monumental risk of making that journey.

When Mei Ying made the crossing, it was in disgrace; one of the few survivors of a monastic tradition that was found to be heretical in its teachings. In disguise she went with the caravan through the desert and across the treacherous mountain pass until she took refuge in the trading city on the other side. During a raid on that city by monstrous creatures, she revealed herself...and later that evening had to fend off an assassin that had also waited in the caravan, hoping to find his quarry among the workers. Having helped the other members of the group during the attack, they now helped her against her assailant. She elected to go with them after that, and had many adventures at their side.

Eventually, when she grew strong enough, she returned to the shadow of the Five Pillars of Heaven, and confronted the faction that had persecuted the order she'd belonged to...calling for their conflicting beliefs to be put to the test in a sanctioned trial of combat.

After a difficult, grueling battle that tested her to her limits, Mei Ying restored the honor of her tradition and exposed the crimes of her enemies. However, after doing what she could to set her order back on its path, she found that the monastic life no longer appealed to her. The world was so much bigger than the cradle of the Pillars, and she could not help but feel it was now a cage. 

It was time to move on again, to bigger things, and higher places.


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## Jemal (Oct 24, 2012)

BF: You could still use the torc minus Roaring, and if you just want an init boost, I'll give it to you for.. 5k?

Shayuri : If you want the greater runestaff I used with +5 enhancement and 3/day uses, I had it figured at 97,800 - Though that was without the erratad cost change. 
With the erratad cost, it'd be closer to 120.. I'd have to redo the math and don't have time now.  Tell ya what, +5 enhancement, Spells 2/day, and normal Smite/ +2 luck bonus for 100K sound good?


ALL: In case people didn't see it before (It is last in a long series of posts I made), I'm reposting this:

NOW, as far as story goes - I'm liking how you guys have been building off each other, maybe a bit more of how you got together?

Also, I'm going to say one thing for sure - the Rauland drought was NOT the most recent adventure, though may have been the first time all of you worked together. The last adventure you were on is from the plot, so I'll be giving you the info on it, for now I'll just tell you that it was an epic war against a powerful Arch-Lich.

As far as the 'clues' that will start you on your planar quest, I have a question for all of you : 
Would you prefer me to actually give you clues/riddles and let you guys figure it out, 
OR
Start after you've 'put it together', and tell you what your characters have figured out so you can start the adventuring part.
__________________


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## Scott DeWar (Oct 24, 2012)

Jemal said:


> ***Snip***​
> As far as the 'clues' that will start you on your planar quest, I have a question for all of you :
> Would you prefer me to actually give you clues/riddles and let you guys figure it out,
> OR
> ...



The problem with riddles is that what you see as obvious may be elusive to the players. I would say go ahead with the riddle, but if we get stuck, maybe some sort of "Help me!" button?


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## Scott DeWar (Oct 24, 2012)

[MENTION=4936]Shayuri[/MENTION]: The trading city mentioned below by you, can Gerard be from that city? Perhaps we met there? It fits the mix of 'western name' (Gerard Hampton) but 'eastern organization'.



> When Mei Ying made the crossing, it was in disgrace; one of the few survivors of a monastic tradition that was found to be heretical in its teachings. In disguise she went with the caravan through the desert and across the treacherous mountain pass until she took refuge in the trading city on the other side.




[sblock=a simple title]
(The Ancient Esoteric Arcane Order of the Jade Dragon Warriors) or Jade Dragons for short.
[/sblock]

EDIT: re: Gerard's homeland Rauland (Acknowledgements: Binder Fred and Shayuri)

if he is from a trade city, it could be a city state, located on the Gulf of _Raksasa_ (*1), south of the Dwarvin Mountain range [The Gaarstadt _Bjerge_ (*2)]. To the east [hopefully ] is the land of _*Under the Five Pillars of Heaven*_ with the desert of_ Pergeseran Tanah_ (*3) between.

translations:
*1: Indonesian for Leviathan
*2: danish for Mountains
*3: Indonesian for shifting lands


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## Voda Vosa (Oct 24, 2012)

Scott DeWar said:


> The problem with riddles is that what you see as obvious may be elusive to the players. I would say go ahead with the riddle, but if we get stuck, maybe some sort of "Help me!" button?




What he said.


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## Shayuri (Oct 24, 2012)

Voda Vosa said:


> What he said.




I'm always up for a good riddle.


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## Binder Fred (Oct 24, 2012)

Riddle me up, scottie- I mean - Jemalie. 

Shapping up nicely re backgrounds, folks.  So, since we *are* going for a foreign legion feel (with only Gerard as a true local), what should we go for for a party name? Stealing a bit from the japanese _gaijins_, how about "the Barbarian Legion"?

How about we make Braham, who seems to be the oldest/wisest amongst us, the founding member of the Legion? Loss some members (death, other pursuits, marriage), gained some new blood here and there until we get to the present line-up. what do you think,     [MENTION=24234]kinem[/MENTION]?

Since noody's voluntereed for the job, I'm going to say that Ur locked on to <drum roll please> Gerard after his little bout with slavery! Still a very influencial person in Ur's life even now (you lucky dog you ).


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## Scott DeWar (Oct 24, 2012)

lucky. huh. thanks. Its gonna be fun!!


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## kinem (Oct 25, 2012)

re: Polymorph Any: The suggestion that a PC would avoid using it as an attack due to moral reasons is ridiculous, both because there is much at stake in the battles (fates of many), and because it is actually _less_ deadly than dishing out damage - because the effect can typically be _reversed_ if the victors want to (_or_ converted to a kill if they so choose), which also gives the advantage of allowing capturing and perhaps interrogation of foes.

And Jemal's claim that it is a weak attack is, well, a weak attempt at trying to justify his position. It can end a battle in one stroke - hardly weak, especially if the battle seems to be going against us. (Not to mention that it gives the capturing option which damage simply doesn't give.) And sorcerers can cast several a day.

Yes, you are being deliberately holding back IC if you fail to use it, even if you can easily mask that fact because your caster is so powerful in other ways. Likewise, enemies would be fools not to use it on us if they could.

Would a full duration noxious blast have been OK if it were made _more_ powerful by letting a warlock also be able to use it to buff allies, e.g. if when used on an ally it doesn't cause damage and gives something useful instead? I hardly think so, but Jemal's logic on PAO (OK since it can buff) would suggest it would be.

How about making PAO unable to affect unwilling creatures?

In any case, Jemal, you are the DM and I want to play this game, so while we obviously don't agree on various points and probably never will, I will accept your rulings so we can move on.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Binder Fred, I like that idea for Braham. Rather than "the Barbarian Legion", I'd prefer the name "the Free Legion". Braham, being chaotic good, is big on freedom.

Braham could be from the desert Shayuri mentions; in any case, he's from the equivalent of the middle east.


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## Shayuri (Oct 25, 2012)

Hmm...anyone have any suggestions for a 9th level spell?

I am weighing several ideas, but am curious to see what y'all think.


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## Fangor the Fierce (Oct 25, 2012)

Man, this is a LOT of reading.  I have never created/played a character past 12th, which means I am hesitant on throwing my name in here for consideration.  I have most all of the books mentioned, and wouldn't mind looking to see if there were still an open slot in this game.

So, is there an open slot?  Or is recruiting full?  I only saw 4 entries on the Rogues Gallery, but I know at least one person still has yet to put in their character concept there.


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## Shayuri (Oct 25, 2012)

I'm not on there yet. Just about ready though. Finalizing items and spells...just a couple more things to do.


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## Scott DeWar (Oct 25, 2012)

Fangor the Fierce said:


> So, is there an open slot?  Or is recruiting full?  I only saw 4 entries on the Rogues Gallery, but I know at least one person still has yet to put in their character concept there.




I think there still is, keep an eye out for Jamal's response. You might want to be working on a character in the mean time.


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## Binder Fred (Oct 26, 2012)

Jemal said:


> BF: You could still use the torc minus Roaring, and if you just want an init boost, I'll give it to you for.. 5k?



Uh... alright. What form would this bonus take? Item, inherent?

Edited the magical items with the new prices (had to get rid of the Circlet of Rapid Casting to pay for the increase on the (ear)Ring of Regeneration). Decided to go with Shock Trooper insread of Quicken Power after all (after examination, that last is now only really useful with Body Equilibrium and Energy Burst, i.e. (unfortunatly) not worth the expenditure of one of his precious few Feats). Are we going to nerf Shock Trooper like I suggested before or go with it as written? Aside from that, my PC is ready once more.



kinem said:


> Binder Fred, I like that idea for Braham. Rather than "the Barbarian Legion", I'd prefer the name "the Free Legion". Braham, being chaotic good, is big on freedom.



I don't know if you know the story behind _gaijin_, Kinem: it means "barbarian", sure, but the funny thing is that, in japanese, it's the word used to designate *all* foreigners. That kind of starkly honest world view has always tickled my funny bone for some reason.   In our own perticular context, I can certainly see a group of semi-outcasts (perversely) taking on the name everybody calls them and turning it into something to be proud of! So, to me, the name Barbarian Legion has some serious *character* (a fight for acceptance, a fight against prejudice, (plus a *little bit* of dark humour )).



Shayuri said:


> Hmm...anyone have any suggestions for a 9th level spell?



Do you only have the one then? I guess it depends on what themes you're develloping with Mei's magic. I've always personnaly liked Shapechange, ever since the classical Disney "Merlin vs Madam Mim" shapechanging battle.  A lot of oriental magicians also have shapechanging abilities, so it would fit perfectly there. Time Stop is a nice multi-purpose spell as well, if you want to go that way, and Transmute Rock to Lava (from Complete Arcane) can be used in interresting ways if you're going the Fire/Rock"Elemental Mage route. Mostly though, if you're still interrested in a little summonner vibe, there's the Summon Elemental Monolith spell (also from CA)? I can just imagine your PC delivering an inspiring speech to the downtrodden masses from atop the head of one.


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## D'Raven (Oct 26, 2012)

Sorry about not posting I've been busy lately. And I kinda slack off cause my characters complex stuff, the followers and base had been finished. If there is still room for me I'll be able to post a completed character this weekend


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## Fangor the Fierce (Oct 26, 2012)

Scott DeWar said:


> I think there still is, keep an eye out for Jamal's response. You might want to be working on a character in the mean time.




Confused a little on the character creation.  I read this as 3.5 gaming, but the character sheet you have up has the Sorcerer Bloodlines from Pathfinder rules.  Are we crossing over to Pathfinder?

EDIT - Nevermind, found the post from Jemal about the sorcerer.  Makes sense now.


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## Shayuri (Oct 26, 2012)

I only have one. I'm caster level 18 (I have a monk level). 

I have an item that lets me spend spell slots to cast Summon Monster, so I can use that for normal summons, limited per day. Should be sufficient.

Summon Monolith isn't bad for a straight up fight spell. It's one I'm considering.

Gate is another one, since it's congruent with her concept and works well with Greater Teleport...which she also has. I'd mostly want to use it for planar travel though, rather than calling. Though it's nice to have the -option- of calling for those emergency situations. 

Disjunction is another one, since I think I'm the only one who -can- start with it, and a great deal of power at this level originates from buffs that disjunction is very effective at stripping away.

Considering Foresight, though it's effectiveness as a 9th level spell is debatable. It is in-character for her to display that sort of precogitive understanding, and could be very useful. Limited by the fact that it's a fairly short term buff, so you have to have to be somewhat precognitive to use it correctly. 

Time Stop is another possibility...

I am not fond of Shapechange for this character, since it is hard to use with this character without either being completely irrelevant (doesn't give her a good BAB, or decent hit points) or totally broken (a lot of her AC bonuses still work in other shapes, which can lead to stupidly STUPIDLY high ACs). It also requires a lot of work to keep up with what shapes are okay to become and what their various powers are. More hassle than I want to keep up with. I am pondering Dragonshape as a superior combat spell, but its limited application makes it less attractive...

Tis tricky.


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## kinem (Oct 26, 2012)

Binder Fred said:


> I don't know if you know the story behind _gaijin_, Kinem: it means "barbarian", sure, but the funny thing is that, in japanese, it's the word used to designate *all* foreigners. That kind of starkly honest world view has always tickled my funny bone for some reason.   In our own perticular context, I can certainly see a group of semi-outcasts (perversely) taking on the name everybody calls them and turning it into something to be proud of! So, to me, the name Barbarian Legion has some serious *character* (a fight for acceptance, a fight against prejudice, (plus a *little bit* of dark humour )).




Yes, sure I know the word "gaijin". It's a well known part of D&D lore, ever since the 1e Oriental Adventures.

I can see the appeal it has for you. How about if "Free Legion" is the official name of the group, but a lot of people including members of the group call it "Barbarian Legion" informally? After all, while most members are foreign, it is not exclusively so.


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## Shayuri (Oct 26, 2012)

kinem said:


> Yes, sure I know the word "gaijin". It's a well known part of D&D lore, ever since the 1e Oriental Adventures.
> 
> I can see the appeal it has for you. How about if "Free Legion" is the official name of the group, but a lot of people including members of the group call it "Barbarian Legion" informally? After all, while most members are foreign, it is not exclusively so.




Okay, I'm fuzzy on what's going on. Who operates and/or controls this 'sorta Foreign Legion?' It sounds like y'all are putting it under the auspices of the Eternal Empire, but that seems a little odd to me. Would the kingdom of Rauland allow a foreign power to plop an army literally right on its doorstep like that?

Or am I completely misunderstanding the proposal? I feel like that is a far more likely interpretation.


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## kinem (Oct 26, 2012)

The way I see it, we answer to no one but ourselves. The military power of the 5 (or 6) of us is greater than that of the Kingdom of Rauland, I expect. We are superheroes. And we saved the Kingdom already, so they should be treating us as honored guests, at least officially.

Also, I expect that we operate worldwide, and it wouldn't make sense to call us the Barbarian Legion in other parts of the world.

J: Regarding the riddle, I say go for it, but we may need hints


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## Shayuri (Oct 26, 2012)

kinem said:


> The way I see it, we answer to no one but ourselves. The military power of the 5 (or 6) of us is greater than that of the Kingdom of Rauland, I expect. We are superheroes. And we saved the Kingdom already, so they should be treating us as honored guests, at least officially.
> 
> Also, I expect that we operate worldwide, and it wouldn't make sense to call us the Barbarian Legion in other parts of the world.
> 
> J: Regarding the riddle, I say go for it, but we may need hints




Ah, I see. So it's not really a legion. It's just us.

Okay.


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## Binder Fred (Oct 26, 2012)

*"My name is LEGION!"* and then there's these other five people around me too. 

But Kinem has the right of it: we are your classical adventuring company, who, right now, is looking for a name. Speaking of, I'm afraid I'm going to have to continue prefering the Barbarian Legion to the Free -- more flavorful IMHO. Does any of the other player have ideas for names? When we have a complete list we could go to a vote and decide as a group.

*Shayuri:* combat is nice, but flexibility could be our live saver too. i.e. I wouln't go for a (signature/cap stone) spell that's *only* useful in combat -- I'm sort of hoping Jemal will keep challenging us on other levels too. In that vein, Shapechange might require a bit more record keeping, but its flexibility for non-combat situations/challenges is frankly hard to beat. YMMV, of course.


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## Shayuri (Oct 26, 2012)

You're right. Shapechange is a broken spell, frankly. That's not why I don't want it though.

I don't want it because it's a PITA, frankly. I've had characters who had it before, and I never wind up USING it because it requires so much fishing through book after book, then working out whether or not it's allowed, and then figuring out what my stats look like in that form...

And if I do all that, then it's so potent as to become a crutch that obviates almost any other tool in our arsenal. 

I really don't like it.


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## Fangor the Fierce (Oct 26, 2012)

I think that the 5 of you plus the 6th person that spoke up before me are enough for the game.  I will still keep an eye on this, as I want to see where this heads with the varied characters and high level of play.  Good luck all!


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## Scott DeWar (Oct 26, 2012)

Shayuri said:


> You're right. Shapechange is a broken spell, frankly. That's not why I don't want it though.
> 
> I don't want it because it's a PITA, frankly. I've had characters who had it before, and I never wind up USING it because it requires so much fishing through book after book, then working out whether or not it's allowed, and then figuring out what my stats look like in that form...
> 
> ...



Wow, all good points, but one question: other then a bread product, whats a PITA?


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## Shayuri (Oct 26, 2012)

Scott DeWar said:


> Wow, all good points, but one question: other then a bread product, whats a PITA?




Pain In The Arse.


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## Scott DeWar (Oct 26, 2012)

heh, oh.


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## Jemal (Oct 27, 2012)

Damn you all, reading from work during the whopping 5 minutes I've got free, and now I want a Pita!!
Anyways, busy week, will post something when I get a chance.


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## Wrahn (Oct 27, 2012)

Hey, it has been a while since I have had the time to play in any games here, is there still a spot open?  I may be a little rusty, but I could whip up a character in short order I think


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## Binder Fred (Oct 27, 2012)

*Shayuri: *Well then I'd suggest going with Summon Elemental Monolith? These guys have some pretty cool powers, some of which can have (limited) out-of-combat applications.  

(I'd go with Gate if this specifically *wasn't* a planar campaign, as it's the most flexible in use and applications after Shapechange. With a planar campaign though, I'm a bit worried it would diminish the impact of exploring brand new places - and I mean brand new - if we can just port in to the exact spot we want and always have the option of porting right back home if things get too rough...)


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## Scott DeWar (Oct 27, 2012)

Pita with roasted tomato and garlic hummus?


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## D'Raven (Oct 28, 2012)

Okay I have my character up in the rogue's gallery and there is a reason I haven't been posting about the backstory, unless you're Kemal just pretend I'm not here.


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## Binder Fred (Oct 29, 2012)

Re Gods (and inspired by Shayuri's "trying to Ascend" background), I'm seeing a single god pantheon for Rauland, with the lower echelons composed of demi-gods/saints in charge of the different portfolios. The difference being that, in the lore of Rauland, these lower echelons were all once mortal that rose to god-hood through their own exceptional deeds (or were Gods co-opted from conquered tribes). 

Instead of re-creating new Gods for these, I suggest we take existing figures and just tweak their stories/local portfolio a little to make them demi-gods. (These labels in no way affect the powers of Greater, Lesser and Demi deities as defined by Jemal for his Planes; it's just the way this Prime's population sees things). For example, Ur is a secondary Zann worshipper, the deity of intelligence and self-learning, which was once the human mystic/hermit/prophetess Corianna Alderan before she Ascended (or so the story goes). He's also a great admirer of Baldor/Balder, the demi-God of courage, drinking and contests, who was once a dwarven adventurer (Ur's prime worship goes to his adopted country's head God/Goddess, whoever she/he turns out to be... Scott, as the only native PC, do you want to do the honors?). 

We don't *have to* export the idea to the other countries of our world, but we can. Mei Ying's Eternal Empire could have Divine Emperors that Ascend as a default (or, conversely, most of his court could be incarnate officials of the Divine Court?), while Braham's desert civilization could have a God of Freedom/Holy Father with probably a much flattened/chaotic hierarchy -- maybe just him or her as chieftain/creator and then the combined tribe of the Glorious Ancestors below, eternally struggling to maintain the "balance" with the four elemental genies?

For the antagonistic Queendom of Dorith, I suggest Atana/Athena, the virgin dragon/dragon-scaled goddess of civilization, architecture, astronomy, astrology and warfare/strategy...

What do you guys think?


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## Jemal (Oct 29, 2012)

Fangor/Wrahn - HEY, good to see you guys!  We're sitting at 6 PC's ATM.  Normally I'd say the more the merrier, but High lvl games can get pretty bogged when there's too many players, so I don't think I've got room, sorry guys. 


Shayuri - Actualy most of my favourite spells aren't 9th lvl.  
I agree with BF about gate - Hadn't really thought about it at first.

My suggestions would be Time Stop for it's power (Hmm, 2-5 extra rounds of planning, movement, buffing, etc?); Shades for Utility; Monolith if you want a combat spell; Or Wish for that *oh shoot* button, and b/c I'm not one of those jerk DMs who tries to twist the wording.  If you pay the 5,000 XP, you damn well get your wish! (Within appropriate power limits)

*On that note, for those of you with Xp cost spells/Item creation feats, there will be alternative sources of power available to supplement (Not fully replace!) casting/creation costs so you don't end up too far behind the others.

SHAYURI : Actually if you've got Spell Compendium, the spell "Perinarch, Planar" Would be a very fun (And campaign-relevant) investment... It affects the majority of the planes you'll be dealing with.  Perhaps Mei doesn't even know she can do it yet, but finds out when she gets to the outer planes that she (Possibly due to being on the road to ascension herself?) has a degree of control usually only available to the gods.
It's very much a "Use your imagination and ask your DM" Ability, but if you're OK with that, I think it could work very well, and would provide that flexibility you guys've been talking about, as well as some good roleplaying and adventuring hooks.

Are you ready to post up a character sheet to the RG so I can look it over?  I know you're not done, but you can keep editing, I'd just like to take some time familiarizing myself with the characters, I'm hoping to start soon"ish"



FYI,
If anybody's Curious about D'raven's character, He won't be connected with your backstory, he's essentially your 'planar guide' once you get off the Material, he's one of the Bazaar Merchants.


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## Jemal (Oct 29, 2012)

BF: The init bonus would be Competence, like most items.
Your shock trooper link leads back to the post it's posted in.. Found your suggestion though.  I'm gonna compromise.  It DOES allow a free trip check against both targets, but it's not using 'improved trip', it's a reaction to the bull rush, so doesn't grant the extra free attack from improved trip.  Hows that sound?

ALSO, reread that post and you have bull rush wrong - you can't actually push someone OUT of your reach with bull rush.. unless you bull rush them down a hole.  to initiate a bull rush you have to enter their square, and then you push them back 5 feet.. essentially you move to the space they vacate, maintaining a 5' distance.  And if you choose to keep pushing them further, you have to keep moving with them.  
It's not "SHOVE, he goes flying", it's more of a football "tackle, grab, push guy ahead of you as you move"  Large and in charge would be for the first thing.. hit him, he goes away from you.

*EDIT : N/m Just remembered you were using knockback*

I'm fine with your Gods Idea, Primer's can call the gods whatever local names they want, it makes sense.


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## Jemal (Oct 29, 2012)

Kinem - I was honestly contemplating ignoring this post b/c I wasn't sure I could respond to your (somewhat inflammatory) comments diplomatically. First off, I'm just going to say one thing : Just because your morals and beliefs differ from other peoples does not give you the right to say other people's views are ridiculous.  
I would ask that you remain open minded to different opinions, not everybody sees things the same way.
Unless they're into scientology.. then they just crazy..


I am however going to adress a few things directly.


kinem said:


> re: Polymorph Any: The suggestion that a PC would avoid using it as an attack due to moral reasons is ridiculous, both because there is much at stake in the battles (fates of many), and because it is actually _less_ deadly than dishing out damage - because the effect can typically be _reversed_ if the victors want to (_or_ converted to a kill if they so choose), which also gives the advantage of allowing capturing and perhaps interrogation of foes.
> 
> And Jemal's claim that it is a weak attack is, well, a weak attempt at trying to justify his position. It can end a battle in one stroke - hardly weak, especially if the battle seems to be going against us. (Not to mention that it gives the capturing option which damage simply doesn't give.) And sorcerers can cast several a day.



 It has nothing to do with justification.  Can it end the battle in one stroke? Yes, but it has a higher tendency to do absolutely nothing.  
Think of it this way : You have a six-shooter gun, which can win any fight with a single bullet.. but you only HAVE 1 bullet in the chamber, and can only fire one a round.  That's what save-or spells are like.  You keep focusing on the "It wins in one shot" aspect and ignoring the fact that it's nowhere near guaranteed.  
If you think wanting something more reliable and less all or nothing is a 'weak justification for holding back' then clearly we are thinking on entirely different planes of existence.  

Don't agree morally?  Lets talk Science.
If you want to break it down into math, I could do that too : 
EX: A lvl 20 mage with 36 stat(18 base +2 race +5 book +5 lvl +6 item) and greater spell focus using a 9th lvl save or spell would have a DC of 34.  Using just core, that's literally the best you can do.
A good PC save at this lvl is ~20-25, and badguys tend to have better stats than PC's.
Lets use the most Iconic example we can : A Red Wyrm (I'll just use the CR 24 version to simulate a boss fight rather than the full Great wyrm). He has a +30, and that's assuming no magical buffs.  
He needs a 3 to fail.. That gives a 15% chance of our example mage's max level spell winning, and 85% chance of nothing.  
So my prior gun analogy actually gives you a BETTER chance of success than a maxed out caster using a save-or spell. (16.666)
*For the record, THAT is a justification.*

If you still like your 1-bullet golden gun, that's your prerogative, but I prefer reliability, and that's very much the opposite of either being ridiculous, or holding back.



> Would a full duration noxious blast have been OK if it were made _more_ powerful by letting a warlock also be able to use it to buff allies, e.g. if when used on an ally it doesn't cause damage and gives something useful instead? I hardly think so, but Jemal's logic on PAO (OK since it can buff) would suggest it would be.



 Except that's NOT what I said.. If you took away the damaging factor ALTOGETHER then you'd be much closer to PAO.. my problem with PAO is that it DOESN'T have any effect if they make the save.  If noxious blast changed the blast so it had no damage, and JUST had the incapacitating effect on enemies and a minor (Usually utility based) buff on allies, THEN they'd be close to similar.


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## Shayuri (Oct 29, 2012)

Gonna stay away from the pmorph thing. Tempted just to not get it, in fact...but I like it too much not to. 

Jemal, Planar Perinarch is looking really good! I don't know offhand how many planes are highly or divinely morphic, but the flavor alone can't be beat.

I do not think I will START with it though. I will start with Time Stop. It solves issues I'm having regarding buffing without access to Quicken Spell and I think it makes more sense for Perinarch to kick in after she's been to the outer planes at least once. I can take it with my next level.

As far as the gods/cosmology goes, I didn't mean for my whole "eastern" thing to dominate the cosmos. In fact, I'd intended for her beliefs and philosophy to be rather exotic and bizarre outside of the Empire (and honestly, a bit exotic and bizarre even _within_ the Empire).

In the interests of contributing though, here's some background info I'm playing with. Still open to comments and suggestions and wholesale vetoing by the GM, of course. 

And just to re-reiterate...this is not stuff I want everyone's character to embrace, or necessarily even be familiar with. It's very particular to the Eternal Empire. Neither do I ask or expect for Jemal to make any of it actually representative of the cosmos. In fact, it'd be fun to take Mei into the planes and find out that _she had it wrong all along._

It -does- provide a path by which mortals can become divinities though, so it's useful for understanding Mei's ambitions, and possibly for understanding how other mortals might have performed similarly in the past.

---
Two things are central to the cosmos, and our place in it. The first is the literal center of the cosmos; the axle about which the worlds turn...the Grand Celestial Mountain. At the apex of the Mountain is the Holy Imperial City. At the center of the city is the Palace of the Emperor; an enormous structure in which the gods of the universe hold court. And of course, at the center of the palace, surrounded by the tiered seats for every deity in existence, is the empty Jade Throne. Seat of the Celestial Emperor himself, the source from which all divine power and wisdom flows.

In the court of the Palace, the gods constantly engage in political byplay, jockeying for laws of nature that will give them advantages. The net result of all these these mutually-opposing forces comes to zero, maintaining a status quo that is orderly despite all appearance of chaos. The only laws that are immutable and not subject to divine negotiation are graven on a huge jade tablet suspended over the Throne.

*1) Mortal Free Will May Not Be Abridged by Divine Action.*

*2) The Great Chain of Being May Not be Broken.*

*3) Life Must Go On.*

There is considerable room for interpretation among these laws, but attempts to stretch them are muted given the consequences of stepping too far. The current interpretations are as follows: 

Mortals cannot be denied the ability to make moral choices due to direct divine influence. Persuasion and coercion by force or magic is acceptable, since choices still exist under those conditions. However, using divine power to simply predestine a mortal's response is not cool, and will be punished. Killing a mortal is not considered abridging, since a mortal soul persists after death and can still make choices following that.

The First Law ties into the second, because the Great Chain of Being relies on moral choices to determine each individual's place. The specific morality to which one is bound varies by one's place, but in all cases living according to that morality advances one, while falling short causes regression. The Second Law further stipulates that the specific moralities that make the Chain up, and the various incarnate states that form the links, are not subject to divine reinterpretation. No god can remake the 'rules' by which souls advance in the cosmos.

The Third Law stems from the loophole in the First, in which killing does not count as abridging free will. It merely exists to make sure the gods do not simply wipe out life, thus freeing themselves of the many burdens life places upon them.

The second thing that determines our place in the universe is the Great Chain of Being, referenced in the Second Law of Heaven. Simply put, it is a metaphysical 'path,' that leads from lesser to greater existences based on one's moral compass and state of enlightenment. Despite the moral component, progress along the Chain of Being is not exactly a case of good versus evil, but rather increasing levels of insight, awareness and metaphysical 'connection' to the universe. It is possible to be at a high level along the Chain, but still be a terrible person. However, most people, when gifted with more awareness and insight also gain empathy and understanding, leading them towards 'good' decisions.

Mortal understanding of the Chain of Being, and how it measures one's status, is imperfect at best. The general mortal consensus about the various links in the Chain are as follows:

*Dirt and quarry stone* -> 
*Natural Stone* -> 
*Crystals and Gemstones* -> 
*Lichens, algae and grass* -> 
*Shrubs and low trees* -> 
*Anything flowering* -> 
*Tall trees* -> 
*Mean animals*; insects and rats and carrion eaters -> 
*Noble beasts*; horses, dogs, apex predators and other beasts with greater than human aspects -> 
*Magical beasts*; creatures with subhuman intellect, but magical powers ->
*Mean person*; a humanoid with limited means and/or intellect ->
*Noble person*; a person with significant resources and personal competence ->
*Exalted person*; a person who's prowess is superhuman, or the ruler of a nation's worth of people ->
*Immortal*; A person who has, by mastering his or her virtues and achieving a plataeu of enlightenment, conquered time's mastery of the body. Despite this, the Immortal still has a physical existence ->
*Demigod*; an immortal who has achieved mastery over a cosmological principle and can exert divine authority over that principle.
*Lesser god*; similar to a demigod, but no longer bound to a physical existence save on the Holy Mountain.
*Greater god*; as a lesser god, but with more cosmic principles, or less specific, more encompassing principles they have power over.

Two special positions exist that are 'outside' the Chain of Being. The first is that of Spirit, which applies either to mortals who have died, and who's souls remain in the physical world...or to an immaterial entity possessing divine or semi-divine powers but which exists only in the material world. Many such spirits serve gods in the world...but others work against them, luring mortals away from worship, or making mayhem. And a great many spirits seem to have little interest in questions of gods or men, and simply act according to their natures regardless of who is there, or not there, to see.

A human spirit becomes a 'soul' when it leaves the world and travels into the lands beyond. For a time it travels, living a second life, until it is drawn back into the world to be reborn into whatever form its position in the Great Chain of Being warrants. Spells that raise the dead can cut the soul's second life short...which can also have implications for its proper reincarnation on the Great Chain. For this reason, raising from the dead is considered to be contrary to the natural order, detrimental for the long-term well being of the soul in questions, and undertaken only in situations where the need is very pressing...or by those who have no interest in the order of nature, or the long-term well being of the soul.

The other special case is that of the Emperor himself. Technically he could be considered a kind of 'overgod,' but since he spends extended periods in contemplative trances, he does not have much direct impact on the cosmos save in brief, sometimes cataclysmic moments. Alone of the entities in the universe, he is capable of upending the cosmic order and replacing it with another. It is even thought by some that this has already happened at least once, though when and how and why is purely a matter for speculation.


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## Wrahn (Oct 29, 2012)

Jemal said:


> Fangor/Wrahn - HEY, good to see you guys!  We're sitting at 6 PC's ATM.  Normally I'd say the more the merrier, but High lvl games can get pretty bogged when there's too many players, so I don't think I've got room, sorry guys.




More than understandable.  I might still finish the character, perhaps put some history down and be an adjunct/former member/ally to the group if that ever comes into play, if that is acceptable.


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## Scott DeWar (Oct 29, 2012)

[MENTION=4936]Shayuri[/MENTION]: Wow. Either, and i am  just guessing, you are a lawyer or a daoist or both.


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## Shayuri (Oct 29, 2012)

Hee hee

Can't claim to be either, sadly, though Taoism is interesting.

It's just Chinese folk mythology with the serial numbers filed off, a few little quirks of my own thrown in, and probably a whole pile of errors to round it all off.


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## Binder Fred (Oct 30, 2012)

Jemal said:


> Shock Trooper DOES allow a free trip check against both targets, but it's not using 'improved trip', it's a reaction to the bull rush, so doesn't grant the extra free attack from improved trip.  Hows that sound?



Pretty good.  Clarification: does he still use the +4 from Improved Trip (or increased size for that matter) on the opposed str check? What about somebody Bull Rushed into a wall or other obstacle, does that allow a (simple) Trip attempt as well?

I'm sort of hoping you'll give out AC and Str bonuses on our opponents so I can work out the effects of Ur's attacks in my posts. Else it's going to be a lot of "If pushed back at least 10' into *that* guy's square, then trip attempt and use remaining attacks on this other guy. If pushed back just 5', then, etc, etc".



Shayuri said:


> It's just Chinese folk mythology with the serial numbers filed off, a few little quirks of my own thrown in, and probably a whole pile of errors to round it all off.



Interresting stuff. Hope we get a chance to discuss it IC.  Just wondering, but what do you see as the relationship between these Gods and mortals? For example, how does prayer work in this context (if at all?) and what of the role of the earthly emperor and his court? Do they have a special relationship with the heavens (as claimed by pretty much all of them IRL)?

  [MENTION=49929]Scott DeWar[/MENTION], know you're busy right now, but did you see the question about choosing a "pantheon head" for Rauland in my last post?


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## Shayuri (Oct 30, 2012)

In theory, gods have a wide latitude over their earthly area of authority...so mortals can and do pray to the gods of the field for rich harvests, to gods of weather for rain, to gods of fertility for strong and healthy children, and so on.

The degree to which those prayers are answered is, as in real life, debtable. This is because in practice, the gods' actions are constrained by other gods, and the Byzantine agreements and various opposing and mutual interests that bind them. You might pray to a god for rain, but that god might be causing a drought as part of a contractual agreement to a desert god...in return for which the rain god gets something else. The mortal has no idea of all this...he just knows it's not raining.

Of course, if the mortal can get the god's attention somehow, and make a good case, and perhaps placate the desert god enough to release the rain god from the contract...then rain could come!

So there can be interactions. It's just not a normal state of affairs. It's a little like praying for a driver's license renewal, or a tax refund check. You'll get what you want eventually, but there are gears and circuits whirring that control it all that you'll never see unless you make extraordinary effort to penetrate the system.

As for the relationship between the Eternal Empire, and their quirky notion of a celestial monarcy/bureaucracy...the earthly Emperor claims a mandate from heaven, of course. It's not a hereditary position. When an Emperor falls, there are a series of divine tests to determine which candidate has the favor of the gods and of the Celestial Emperor.

In theory, anyone can be a candidate. In practice, only those who have great education (which requires money and/or political clout) will ever get past the first round of tests, which are designed to weed out spurious claims. Various other challenges sneakily test a candidate's political aplomb, statesmanship and knowledge of law and philosophy...all the while cloaked in trappings of ritual and appeals to divine guidence.

In the end though, it's pretty well known that the final decision is made by a circle of high priests. They lack direct power over government and state, but by virtue of their capacity to select Emperors, they have tremendous influence. They are pantheist priests, beholden to no one god, except the Celestial Emperor himself. 

By virtue of access to powerful magic and the resources of the entire nation, the Emperor tends to live a long, long time. 

----

I see the Eternal Empire as being very human-centric, by the by. The Conclave, which is the advisory body to the Emperor, and is where most of the actual work of governance takes place, has a handful of nonhuman delegates to speak for their people...but they're too few to be easily heard. Most nonhumans either integrate into human society (halflings and 'halfbloods'), or keep to isolated enclaves of their own (gnomes, dwarves, elves).


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## Wrahn (Oct 30, 2012)

Voda,

I was looking at the characters and your equipment cost looked wrong to me.  I added it up and I got 653,711, which is considerably less than the alloted amount for a 20th level character.  Anyway, I could be wrong and I missed something in your format (btw you have the cost for the boots of striding and springing wrong. )

Also, I am not sure I understand how you have your stats allocated.  If I understand correctly there is a base 10, with 30 stat points (not stat buy) to distribute.  As near as I can tell, your base buy looks like:

Str 36 (16 Base +10 Race +4 Level +6 Enhancement)
Dex 16 (18 Base -4 Race +2 Enhancement)
Con 14 (14 Base +4 Race +4 Inherent +6 Enhancement)
Int 13 (17 Base -4 Race)
Wis 10 (10 Base)
Cha 8  (12 Base -4 Race)

Which is 27 points.  Again, I could be wrong here. just seeing discrepency and thought I should mention it, since it would be in your favor to change it


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## Scott DeWar (Oct 30, 2012)

Wrahn said:


> Voda,
> 
> I was looking at the characters and your equipment cost looked wrong to me.  I added it up and I got 653,711, which is considerably less than the alloted amount for a 20th level character.  Anyway, I could be wrong and I missed something in your format (btw you have the cost for the boots of striding and springing wrong. )
> 
> ...




Wrahn, we have a budget of 1 million gp

also on his stats, did you account for stat boosts every 4 levels?


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## Scott DeWar (Oct 30, 2012)

Binder Fred: No I did not see that question addressed to me. Sorry about that. I really don't know at this time. This city-state might be pantheistic as there are going to be so many societies present. Heck, there could be a Lawful neutral contingent of hobgoblin mercs for hire and/or part of the city's defenses.

*shrug*

there could be various temples for aspect to be worshiped:

near the ocean for posiden, Odin and who ever

a shrine for miliekie, the green man and Apollo

a fighter school with a shrine for Mars, Athena, and ????

thieves guilds each with their own 'patron saint'

/*shrug*


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## Wrahn (Oct 30, 2012)

Scott DeWar said:


> Wrahn, we have a budget of 1 million gp
> 
> also on his stats, did you account for stat boosts every 4 levels?




Yeah, that was why I mentioned it.  Now I could be misreading the character and not seeing some other stuff he has, but it drew my attention because I was trying to figure out what he did with all his money.

And yeah, I assumed he put his 4 points (if you follow the rules is the epic level handbook the bonus stats are based on hit dice (and level) and not effective level) into strength


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## Binder Fred (Oct 31, 2012)

Scott DeWar said:


> This city-state might be pantheistic as there are going to be so many societies present.



Well, let's start right there (and I think you have the wrong word there (Pantheism is the belief that the universe/nature *is* God), but I understand what you mean): I was thinking of Rauland as an actual country, a kingdom to be precise. If we're talking city-state, then we're talking about an entirely different scale.... A scale that, IMHO, does't fit too well with opposing, and winning, against the conquering clutches of a full-blown foreign *empire* (Dormith).

As briefly mentionned before, I'm personnaly thinking of Rauland as a chaotic land rich in natural ressources (mostly wood, fertile soil for farming and sun-dappled meadows for raising cattle, metals would come from trade (dwarfs? Historically Kadrath? That would certainly have put the pinch on Rauland when Dormith invaded then)). The country rises as one goes inland, crumpling into tree-covered hills from which the rocky points of Tutek's mountains eventually burst through, climbing the sky. Cities/major town would be rare (just the one city?), clustering near the coast, at the mouth of rivers (the main method of transportation into the heart of the country -- though the fore-country would have plenty of trails and sea-side earthen roads). Rauland's natural wealth would flow/float down these rivers - um, let's make it a single large one called The White - to be traded with the neighbouring countries at Gerard's city which sits on both sides of the White (much calmer and siltier, almost lazy in its flowing at this point -- and much browner). Under Rauland's green covering sits the ruins of at least two ancient kindgoms, including the crumbling Sounding Wall, once meant to keep Tutek's ancestors at bay (there is even a rumour that much of the foundation of Gerard's city was originally from a much older (and stranger, some say non-human (quasi-human?)) city that occupied the same spot).

In this context, I suggest we relocate the capital further along the coast and a bit inland, in a large town that's much less cosmopolitan/forward-thinking than Gerard's city. Would have made for some interresting tension, I think.

My point being that Rauland, however we end up defining it, should have it's own personality (and not be defined simply as a meeting point for other cultures (that can be what defines Gerard's city, if you want Scott)). Choosing a head for its pantheon is therefore a big part of the flavor we can impart to the country where we spent all those exciting early years of our adventuring career. 

So, yes, multi-God worship is pretty much a given (polytheism). The idea here though, is that "posiden" would be a demi-god - say a mighty fisherman that slew the dread elemental Kraken in the gulf of Pluwy (I had already named the gulf, so I call dibs ) and mapped the way around the Dragon Claw islands before re-discovering the sunken city of Raksassa from where he now rules his underwater kingdom after being rewarded and raised to Godhood by... [insert Pantheon head here]. This entity would sort of tie the different aspects of the country into a central theme (imagine a map of the world with the gigantic figures of each pantheon head standing tall on their chosen country -- or sitting on his jade throne in Shayuri's case ). I would personnaly go with something Norse, Celtic, Finnish or maybe even Summerian to encapsulate the wild and free aspect of Rauland vs the ordered nature of Dormith (as personnified by Atana/Athena), but that's just me.

Thoughts?


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## Shayuri (Oct 31, 2012)

I suggest the mountains that Tutek hails from can also be the barrier mountains between the rugged forested foothills sloping down into Rauland, and the bitter desert wastes between the Empire and Rauland.

Mei and Tutek may even have met while she made her crossing into Rauland...


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## Binder Fred (Oct 31, 2012)

In an adversarial capacity (pre their second meeting at the begining of the Great Drought adventure)? That could be fun. 


(Agreed on the mountain placement. Makes sense.)


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## Scott DeWar (Oct 31, 2012)

*POLY*theism! got it.

The mountains would be a natural rain shadow to have caused the desert. think of the San Bernadino/San Andreas/ Sierra Nevada ranges and the Mohave,Senora deserts.


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## Jemal (Nov 4, 2012)

ENWorld's acting up on me tonight, but I'm trying to get over the characters numbers today/tomorrow.

How's everybody feel they're doing?  Pretty much ready to start?  Need anything more from me other than number checking?


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## Voda Vosa (Nov 4, 2012)

Wrahn said:


> Voda,
> 
> I was looking at the characters and your equipment cost looked wrong to me.  I added it up and I got 653,711, which is considerably less than the alloted amount for a 20th level character.  Anyway, I could be wrong and I missed something in your format (btw you have the cost for the boots of striding and springing wrong. )
> 
> ...




Thanks! I completely missed that out. I'll check.


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## Binder Fred (Nov 4, 2012)

Ur is ready and willing! 

Just waiting on that clarification on the modified Shock Trooper feat... I don't suppose I could choose to follow after a sucessful Knockback attempt, could I? That would be extra sweet (and very action film-y ). Other than that I'm set.

I think I will slightly tweak his background though to 1. Make him a native of Rauland's back-country instead of an as-yet-undescribed dwarven nation under-the-mountain (let's say the hills of Alsion, were the Sounding Wall is located) and 2. change the origin of the Diary of CorAl to the lair of Shayuri's Iridex villain. Shayuri, would the original description fit? "This tiny book was found laying on a coffee table in the rather eclectic and bizarre mountain-top lair of a mad [lich] lord"? I'm thinking this could be back on a trip/quest to the Eternal Empire, with Zann being a God/Goddess from your Mythos (would need to rename her last earthly incarnation in that case, of course, as Corianna Alderan doesn't sound very Empire-y). What do you think? To fit with Ur's power progression, this would have been around level 10-11 (just before he started taking Psychic Fist levels). They don't need to have defeated him then, just broken into (one of?) his lair. 

*Last call on names for the adventuring party! Last call!*


----------



## Scott DeWar (Nov 4, 2012)

Hampton's hounds of Hell


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## Voda Vosa (Nov 4, 2012)

added some more intelligence to my ogre, and about the money, did you add the 200,000 or so from the intelligent item?


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## Binder Fred (Nov 5, 2012)

Ur's Uncany Upstarts? 

How about we make Gilgamesh Rauland's king? (We have gods as demi-Gods, no reason not to have a demi-god in training as our king, right? ). He'd sit in his capital town of Enki, further along the coast and a bit inland from Gerard's city. He and his sons would have played a major role in the liberation/invasion of Kadrath during the Great Draught adventure. His love of life and fear of death (when not actually in combat) would probably have made him a supporter of Gerard's anti-undead organization as well (though they would have to steer him away from undeath as a path to immortality, as that would probably be a temptation for him (that might be one of the party's first sniffs/first contacts with the concept of Iridex the Lich, through one of his roaming cults (arriving by boat to Gerard's city, implanting themselves and gaining the ear of the King through one of the King's son slumming in the city?))).

Speaking of Gerard's city, how about giving it its own protecting God/Gods _a la_ "Gods of Lankhmar" from the Fafhrf and the Grey Mouser stories,    [MENTION=49929]Scott DeWar[/MENTION]?  (i.e. "sleeping" Gods (very physically sleeping in/under the city/in an abandonned temple without priests?) that awaken only in defense of the city or when the citizens need reminding about regular worship and sacrifices). If we're keeping a bit with the Babylonian/Sumerian theme set by Gilgamesh, these guys could be the Seven Sages of legend, which gave civilization and culture to Rauland. These guys have fishy themes (torso of a fish), but this can easily be changed if you want another animal/theme, Scott, and they link well with the idea that your city might have (much) older roots. There could even be a yearly kingly pilgrimmage/grand ceremony/procession to the temple so the king can "consult the Sages on the year to come". 

For an actual God of Rauland, I've been thinking, since Scott doesn't seem tohave a preference. How about Thor, the fierce-eyed, red-haired and red-bearded God of storms, oak trees, strength, the protection of mankind, and also hallowing, healing and fertility. In this universe he is also known as the Crippled God due to extensive scarring on his right side, including the loss of his right eye and right hand during his original conquest of the elemental Titans (some confusion/melding with Odin and Tyr?). Thor Invictus wields *his* hammer with his left hand. He is the prime deity worshipped by Ur  and Gilgamesh and the one who raised the other Rauland deities to Godhood -- or so the (varied and quite entertaining) stories go. 

What do you guys think?


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## Shayuri (Nov 5, 2012)

Binder Fred said:


> ...2. change the origin of the Diary of CorAl to the lair of Shayuri's Iridex villain. Shayuri, would the original description fit? "This tiny book was found laying on a coffee table in the rather eclectic and bizarre mountain-top lair of a mad [lich] lord"? I'm thinking this could be back on a trip/quest to the Eternal Empire, with Zann being a God/Goddess from your Mythos (would need to rename her last earthly incarnation in that case, of course, as Corianna Alderan doesn't sound very Empire-y). What do you think?




The description works fine, sure. My sense is that the whole lich affair took place in Rauland though, since Mei's backstory is that she didn't return to the Empire until after it all completed.

As for the reality of Zann...if he's involved with the lich quest, no need to say he's in the celestial court. But he could be. Heck, Corianna could even be a name he or she is known by in Rauland as well. Nothing says the gods can't be more cosmopolitan than their followers.


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## Binder Fred (Nov 5, 2012)

Shayuri said:
			
		

> My sense is that the whole lich affair took place in Rauland though, since Mei's backstory is that she didn't return to the Empire until after it all completed.



Well, how about this: The Lich adventure might have begun in Rauland with the Storm King adventure, at the conclusion of which clues pointing towards the Eternal Empire were uncovered as the PCs were drawn East by a chase scene through the desert with many near misses, hit-and-run ambushes and sudden twists as we pursued the badly beaten Storm King himself (and the last of his monstrous retinue). We run him to ground at the very gates of the empire, with the quest ending *in* the Empire with the finding and then the destruction of his Lich lord and master (a (culture-shock) adventure unto itself) -- at which point the next adventure would have been Mei Ying's Good Name adventure (restauring her tradition's good name in the Empire (some interesting politicing/high-court action there, I imagine )), followed by a short adventure through Braham's desert on our way back (ideas  [MENTION=24234]kinem[/MENTION]?), followed by the Great Draught adventure when we got back to Rauland and found that the situation had gone a bit downhill since our leaving.

I rather like the idea of an "oriental" flavored Zann tradition (fits well with the monk theme and the idea of adventurers as cross-cultural vectors), so wherever Ur winds up finding the book (Rauland or the Empire -- maybe in a deserted, eerily quiet "summer" mountain island lair of Iridex's in Rauland, with only traps, oozes and incorporeal servants/guards eternaly waiting?), we can always say that its ideas originally came from the east. The book's author could be the last earthly incarnation of Zann before ascending, an incarnation of an already Godly eastern Zann, or just a Zann-inspired prophetess depending on who you ask (Ur, with his Rauland outlook, would of course favor option 1). Her name is, and always has been, Ciana An Dailiang ("Peaceful Jade of the Great Bridge")... Acceptable/interresting?


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## Jemal (Nov 5, 2012)

As a reminder, Whether you were together before the lich is up to you guys, but  the LICH adventure is the most recent thing that happened, ending within the last.. month or so, and by the end of it you should all be working together (except raven, who works in elsewhere).


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## Jemal (Nov 5, 2012)

Alright, First off : 
 [MENTION=24234]kinem[/MENTION]
I hope your lack of posting since my response is just a coincidence or that you're busy.  I do enjoy gaming with you and hope you didn't take my words too personally, I can get a bit defensive and argumentative about.. certain things.  Hope you're still around.

NOW: 

VV - you say you added some int to Tutek, but your sheet in the RG hasn't been changed since it's initial post.
I'm Assuming you take the int up by 1, for a total of 14 (18 pts being the max it can be before mods), which would give you still 2 left over.
I'd suggest just finishing maxing your strength. 

If you've got a little gold left over, I'd highly suggest upping your +4 constitution tome to a +5.  It's 27,500 gp and while it doesn't give you an immediate benefit, it will help you if you ever plan on adding more to your con. (Changing from a +4 to a +5 inherent bonus later is very expensive).
I'm also surprised you didn't buy an inherent STR bonus.

A note: Potions of reduce/enlarge person will have no effect on Tutek, as he is not humanoid.  One of the downsides to playing nonstandard races.


As for your Chained Sorcerer inteligent item, I don't think a purpose of slaying arcane casters will fit with all the arcane in your party, so hows about we say DIVINE casters.. It was they who imprisoned him, for trying to steal the gods magic for himself (Using arcane power to cast supposedly 'divine' spells).
And to go with that, his special power will be Harm (Item may choose to cast on hit), though he only uses it on Divine casters and those who are protecting them from him.
150 HP damage, Will DC 20 for half.

That work for you?  As far as personality, basically what you had thought sounds good for me, add in a bit of obsession with the divine maybe.

Also you don't have a greater power picked for him.


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## Jemal (Nov 5, 2012)

Binder Fred said:


> Pretty good.  Clarification: does he still use the +4 from Improved Trip (or increased size for that matter) on the opposed str check? What about somebody Bull Rushed into a wall or other obstacle, does that allow a (simple) Trip attempt as well?



*Found the quote about size: 


Jemal said:


> RE: Knockback - I've read the feat now, and would be willing to allow it to you, but keep in mind that since you aren't actually large, you do not get the large size bonus to the strength check.



Yes to the +4, but Ur isn't large.  I'm fairly certain I specified that you could take knockback as though you were large, but would NOT be getting the size bonuses.
*EDIT: After writing this I went through the character sheet and noticed the expansion power.  If that's what you were talking about then yes, the size bonuses from that would work.  My Apologies.

As far as the wall thing, no it would not allow a trip check.  They're stumbling backwards into/over people, wheras a wall is big and solid behind them.  Circumstantially if you push them over obstacles/terrain, but that'll be case by case.



> I'm sort of hoping you'll give out AC and Str bonuses on our opponents so I can work out the effects of Ur's attacks in my posts. Else it's going to be a lot of "If pushed back at least 10' into *that* guy's square, then trip attempt and use remaining attacks on this other guy. If pushed back just 5', then, etc, etc".



That's what knowledge checks and Trial/Error are for.  If I gave out their stats at the beginning that would allow PC's the ability to calculate their best odds of success with different attack forms.  

Using your example, a simple if/or is fairly easy "I push him back as far as I can, if I make it to guy X, I'll do A, otherwise I'll do B"  I don't see much of a problem for multiple actions, it's kind of a pass/fail thing, so A/B should work.  If you think you absolutely have to know the outcome of an action to decide the rest of your turn, then just post up to that action and State you have to wait for the result before you can continue.



As far as stats, your character looks GTG.


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## Jemal (Nov 5, 2012)

Shayuri - 
Not a bad AC.  Ima have to actually try to hit you. 

Not sure how you got your charisma score.  Were you adding 5 lvl points? You only get one every 5 lvls, so would only have +4.


Couple background questions: 
Is Iridex a different Undead, or is that the name you've been using for the Lich I've been talking about (He's actually a character in the setting)

Do you have any problems with me using Pizair the blind as a recurring NPC?



**There's a lot of background stuff scattered throughout this thread!  I'm really looking forward to this, guys.


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## Jemal (Nov 5, 2012)

Scott - 
Looks good as far as I can see.  Spells are right, though wondering why you have Elemental Body listed as Elemental Body III - I'm assuming it's just the Elemental body spell from Spell Compendium, right?

Most of your wands seem fairly redundant and weak.. CL 3 body of the sun? 1d4 damage/round for 3 rounds doesn't seem worth an action.  You could slap someone harder than that. Acid Arrow has the same problem - It'll deal 2d4/round for 2 rounds..
lvl 5 Lightning bolt might be useful but seems highly circumstantial.
Considering your acid splatter feat, you don't even need these wands as 'backup damage' for use when you don't want to expend your spells.  

Personally I'd drop what you have spent on wands and potions and buy a Bag of Random Stuff.  If you need any circumstantial spells, you can always just pull a scroll/potion out of the bag.  Sure it costs more, but not enough of a difference to justify buying so many potions/wands (Unless you plan on using them very frequently).

My main problem is the potion of cure mod - It's about the worst healing item you can get.  Cure light is better for between-fight healing, b/c it's much more cost efficient, and if you want the potions for quick healing IN fight, then you should be going with cure critical, b/c the 2d8+3 of cure mod isn't going to be near enough, especially at this level, to validate using a precious action drinking it.  It's kinda the 'worst of both worlds'.  

*ALSO: Potion of featherfall is a bit weird.. The point of feather fall is 'oh crap i'm falling *Cast*', I don't see it working too well as a potion.. Draw & Drink takes time, unless you KNOW you're going to be falling and use it ahead of time, or you fall more than 200 feet, you won't have time to use it.


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## Jemal (Nov 5, 2012)

K, I'm off to bed, Would someone be able to gather the background stuff into a rough timeline of what happened when and who joined who where?  
I'm having trouble following all of it.


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## Shayuri (Nov 5, 2012)

_Not a bad AC.  Ima have to actually try to hit you. _

-- Hehe, the Ascetic Monk build always has a high AC just because it links AC to the spellcasting stat. It's a major component of the defense, reducing reliance on buffing spells.

_Not sure how you got your charisma score.  Were you adding 5 lvl points? You only get one every 5 lvls, so would only have +4_.

-- I'll doublecheck my math...very possible I made a mistake. EDIT - Update! I did. Her Charisma is 33 until level 20. Thanks for the catch, Jemal!

_Couple background questions: 
Is Iridex a different Undead, or is that the name you've been using for the Lich I've been talking about (He's actually a character in the setting_)

-- Iridex is the name I made up for the arch-lich. I will replace it with the real name of the NPC with your permission.

_Do you have any problems with me using Pizair the blind as a recurring NPC_?

-- Not at all! That's one reason I like fleshing out items and backgrounds in games like this. Experienced characters have these people they've dealt with in the past...that helps keep them from being reduced to 'just bigger sets of bonuses.' 

_**There's a lot of background stuff scattered throughout this thread!  I'm really looking forward to this, guys_. 

-- Me too! We're still kind of hammering out the details of our collective background and the sequence of events leading up to the confrontation with the Lich.

Since the lich is somewhat predefined, it would help if you could give us some information about him, and our fight with him. Where would he have been located, and what was his evil plot? Or if you're okay with us cobbling that together, just let us know.


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## Wrahn (Nov 5, 2012)

Voda,

This is my breakdown of your equipment.  Am I missing something? 

  28,000	Mithral fullplate of speed 				
255,550	Sendesemcal the Chained Sorceror: +5 Intelligent Mighty Cleaving Spiked Chain of Shock, Spell Storing and Wounding					
       25	Spiked Chain
 32,316	+2 Returning Throwing Axe of Distance
 36,000	Amulet of health +6 					
 50,000	Gloves of natural armor +5 				
110,000	Manual of bodily health +4, read. 			
Ioun Stones:
  8,000	Deep red 						
 30,000	Pale green 						
  5,000	Dusty rose

 25,000	Ring of evasion 					
 36,000	Boots of striding and springing 			
  2,200	Ring of Feather falling 				
Potions:
  1,500	Heroism x2						
  1,000	Reduce person x4					
  1,000	Enlarge Person x4					
  1,500   Invisibility x5

 36,000	Belt of giant strength +6 				
 25,000	Cloack of resistance +5 				
    110	Everburning torch 					
	Bed roll
     10	Tent
-------
684,211	

Notes:
Cost for Boots of Striding and springing are incorrect
Cost for Gloves of Natural armor incorrect (due to slot affinity), can easily rectify it by making it a shirt of natural armor


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## Jemal (Nov 5, 2012)

Shay - Also I misspoke, it IS one every 4 lvls, but you only get 4.  I was thinking of the 5 you get for a full 20 lvls.  Same end though.

I have been planning on posting up a bunch of info, wanted to get the characters gone over first, though.


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## Scott DeWar (Nov 5, 2012)

lost internet access for an hour. blech



Jemal said:


> Scott -
> Looks good as far as I can see.  Spells are right, though wondering why you have Elemental Body listed as Elemental Body III - I'm assuming it's just the Elemental body spell from Spell Compendium, right?




If you are referring to the links/ spell descriptions, then yes. because there is no link to use, I posted the base description from the lower spell for information only.



Jemal said:


> Most of your wands seem fairly redundant and weak..




omitted wands and potions


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## Binder Fred (Nov 6, 2012)

Jemal said:


> As a reminder, Whether you were together before the lich is up to you guys, but  the LICH adventure is the most recent thing that happened, ending within the last.. month or so, and by the end of it you should all be working together (except raven, who works in elsewhere).



Alright, I missed somethng somewhere  [MENTION=9026]Jemal[/MENTION]. The only place I saw the lich mentionned was in Mei Ying's background. I had no idea it had anything to do with the Planar Quest. Where is the info that I may catch up?


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## Scott DeWar (Nov 6, 2012)

I purchased a rod of absorption with avail. cash. how much was each share of the chariot?

nevermind, found it

8,300-My Share of the Charriot of the Clouds


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## Binder Fred (Nov 6, 2012)

Jemal said:


> K, I'm off to bed, Would someone be able to gather the background stuff into a rough timeline of what happened when and who joined who where?



Done. You can see it here in the RG. I added a few twists/suggestions (I'm looking at *you* VV ). If anybody wants to change something, let me know. If anybody wants to add a paragraph (other adventures, etc), please write it in this thread, tell me where you want it in the chronology and I'll paste it over.


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## Scott DeWar (Nov 6, 2012)

Ok, I looked for 


> Fighting armored ogres ridding even more heavily armored dire bears in the frozen wastes below the South Peak Glaciers. Ur uses Expansion for the first time.[/quot]
> 
> and didn't find it anywhere, BUT, in case it is there and I just simply missed it:
> 
> ...


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## kinem (Nov 6, 2012)

Jemal said:


> Just because your morals and beliefs differ from other peoples does not give you the right to say other people's views are ridiculous.




True, it doesn't give me the right; I already have that right and nothing can take that away!

Jemal, right there is the part of your post that I have the most problem with. I have the right to say whatever I want. Freedom of speech is one of the most important rights. The more that people invoke 'moral' or religious beliefs, the more important it is _to be able to_ ridicule and denounce those beliefs. Speech can be countered with more speech; never with a denial of the right to speak.

Perhaps what you _meant_ to say was more along the lines of "Just because your morals and beliefs differ from other peoples does not mean you are correct in saying other people's views are ridiculous."

I don't know if you did mean that but it's problematic as well: Obviously only an idiot would say that a view is ridiculous _just_ because it differs from his own and for no additional reason. So if that's what you meant you were merely insulting me, not trying to deny my ability to speak.

While I believe and say that many views are ridiculous, I do so only for the ones that deserve it.

And yes, the example of not using PAO because it's "too deadly given your morals" does deserve ridicule - it's neither deadly, nor of much moral weight compared to the outcome of a high level battle which typically affects many lives.

Respect is a reaction, not a choice; there is no way I could "choose to" respect a view that seems foolish to me.



> Unless they're into scientology.. then they just crazy..




While I agree about scientology , the difference between that remark and what I said is that I did not get personal. I attacked the view, not the person holding it - that's the way to do it.



> It has nothing to do with justification.  Can it end the battle in one stroke? Yes, but it has a higher tendency to do absolutely nothing.




Suppose we catch the big bad in his private room by surprise. We can attack to do damage, but we know we can't take him down in one or two rounds. Given the chance, he will escape, heal, buff himself, and return with his main allies. Would it not be foolish to pass up even a 15% chance to take him down in one stroke? Many similar scenarios come to mind.

In any case, the party we ended up with is not balanced in power. I guess we'll have to see how it plays out.

------------------------------------------------------------------------



Binder Fred said:


> ... followed by a short adventure through Braham's desert on our way back ...




For a desert adventure, how about this: A river was drying up, and we needed to conduct a ritual to summon a powerful water genie in order to restore it. Enemies of the nearby city, Gebe, sent bands of monsters and adventurers to try to stop the summoning, and we had to fend them off while continuing the ritual. It's an inversion of the _so_-often-used "PCs have to stop the evil summoning" plot


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## Scott DeWar (Nov 6, 2012)

> For a desert adventure, how about this: A river was drying up, and we needed to conduct a ritual to summon a powerful water genie in order to restore it. Enemies of the nearby city, Gebe, sent bands of monsters and adventurers to try to stop the summoning, and we had to fend them off while continuing the ritual. It's an inversion of the so-often-used "PCs have to stop the evil summoning" plot




that a certain charm to it.

Having said that, I have to admit to having a mental exhaustion, as I still suffer from last year's sickness, so I may be a bit slow to respond to the, the most challenging game I have worked on ever.

Worry not friends. I am not quitting, I am just going to slow down on creative writing. This may only last a couple of days.


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## Shayuri (Nov 6, 2012)

Okay, I'm removing Polymorph Any Object from my spell list.

Lets hope this closes the case. 

Plenty of good 8th level spells to choose from. And now I don't need to Spell Focus Transmutation either, so I've got some feats.

Kinem, what are some ways we could improve balance d'ya think?


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## Binder Fred (Nov 7, 2012)

Site was down earlier and no more free time today. Back tomorrow, folks!


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## kinem (Nov 7, 2012)

Shayuri said:


> Kinem, what are some ways we could improve balance d'ya think?




3.5 is just not balanced between classes at high level. 4e is (or so I assume) but I'm not a fan of it at all.

If we _were_ trying to better balance power - though I certainly don't want to redesign what we have - maybe a full caster should start with half as much wealth as a fighter. Perhaps a better way to do it would be to start with less wealth, but then give each character custom items designed to balance things after the builds are known.

But I'm not sure that's the right way to go. Perhaps there is a 'balance of fun' that's more important than balance of power. Maybe that's why D&D works after all.

For example, suppose there are 2 characters:
PC#1 deals a lot of damage, but has moderate defenses.
PC#2 deals considerably less damage, but is basically immune to all attacks, and can move around quickly.

PC#2 is clearly far more powerful than PC#1. He could beat PC#1 easily, and can beat any monsters that the team could beat, while PC#1 couldn't.

But which is more fun to play? Since they work as a team, PC#1 will drop more foes. And he's the one who can be harmed, so any combat drama will center around danger to him.

As I said, we'll have to see how it plays out.


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## Binder Fred (Nov 8, 2012)

Scott DeWar said:


> Ok, I looked for
> 
> 
> > Fighting armored ogres ridding even more heavily armored dire bears in the frozen wastes below the South Peak Glaciers. Ur uses Expansion for the first time.
> ...



It was mentionned in Ur's "Power Explanation" sblock in the RG 



Scott DeWar said:


> am I going too far with this? stop me now if I am.



Well, it depends.  What's the rest of the story (how did the PCs win (assuming they even won)?)? Perhaps most importantly, what did they take out of it? What was gained/lost/what changed because of this adventure? 

My idea when putting up the Scrolls was that it would be a reference for important milestones in the party's history: adventures that brought in new members, that saw the loss of old members, that led to finding out about major plot point (Iridex for example) or to major changes in (one or more) PC's life (the discovery of the Book of CiAn, leading Ur to begin taking Psychic Fist levels, conflicts, important life events, meaningful/signature magic items/spells, etc. Does that help frame things a little in your head re your story?

I put it under the "Numerous Adventures" heading in the RG post (meaning Tutek wasn't there for this one). Let me know if you see it somewhere else instead.

Put the Desert adventure in there as well, though I'm waiting with baited breath - like us all, I imagine  - for details on Jemal's Lich quest before we can even begin to work out the exact chronology of these later quests. Jemal, any hints? Where would this quest have taken place for example? Rauland? The Eternal Empire? Dealer's choice? Why must it absolutely be the most recent one?

*Kinem*, I think Shayuri was refering specifically to having a balanced selection of spells between your two PCs.


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## Scott DeWar (Nov 8, 2012)

Scott DeWar said:


> that a certain charm to it.
> 
> Having said that, I have to admit to having a mental exhaustion, as I still suffer from last year's sickness, so I may be a bit slow to respond to the, the most challenging game I have worked on ever.
> 
> Worry not friends. I am not quitting, I am just going to slow down on creative writing. This may only last a couple of days.






Scott DeWar said:


> Ok, I looked for
> 
> 
> > Fighting armored ogres ridding even more heavily armored dire bears in the frozen wastes below the South Peak Glaciers. Ur uses Expansion for the first time.[/quot]
> ...


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## Jemal (Nov 8, 2012)

Been feeling ill, not really up to typing out all the background, had hoped to have it up sooner, but will get on it soon as I can.


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## Binder Fred (Nov 9, 2012)

No problems, Scott and Jemal. I'm eager to hear your reponses, sure, but RL goes first -- and anticipation builds the suspense.


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## Scott DeWar (Nov 9, 2012)

on top of every thing else, inter net access has been spotty and techs will be out tomorrow to fix it. don't know how that will pan out.


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## Zerith (Nov 9, 2012)

Last call? is this still open? 
... I need my 3.5 Fix *twitches*


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## Scott DeWar (Nov 9, 2012)

oh, sorry. Let me help you with that twitch.

*turns off the ssl on the sspwm dimmer*

[ssl= solid state lighting-LED lighting]
[sspwm=solid state pulse width modulating dimmer]

heh, was on a pod cast about the strobing effects of dimmerson led lighting  this morning.


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## Zerith (Nov 9, 2012)

oh, th*Twitches*t is not it, S*twitch*ger high.
Candy was *twitch* on sale. Perhaps too much? *Hyper twitch/back flip onto ceiling*

off the jokes though :3

I was thinking of... Playing a (half dragon) Kobold!
Starting at ECL 20 means you can payoff 3 LA easy 

this said, assuming its still ok to join I was thinking of making the character 'innately' imbued with magic, as apposed to having alot of gear for magical bonuses. IE: Sculpt self.

The base of sculpt self is it is a feat that allows you to use exp to enchant yourself for the cost of a slotless item converted into xp: could I use it and just use the giant mass of gold to buff for it? I don't want a dragony character to need a load of items ^_^;

(pros to it:items can't be stolen or lost, no practical limit)
(Cons not cost affective, at all, can't sell out dated enchantments/thingies)


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## Jemal (Nov 10, 2012)

Sorry, I've already turned a couple people away, just haven't gotten around to changing the title.
If somebody else where to start up a different game though, then there'd be room for people (myself included!)


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## Zerith (Nov 11, 2012)

Dange nab it >_<


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## Jemal (Nov 12, 2012)

*Test*

Hmm weird, wrote up my big long post with info but every time I try posting it it gives me an error page, yet I CAN post..
Perhaps it's too long?  Good thing I saved it in wordpad!
I'll try again and then maybe split it into a couple posts if I have to.
weird..


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## Jemal (Nov 12, 2012)

OK lets try again...


OK, and now, finally, some DM Info on the world.  I left it mostly up to you guys b/c you're the major players (Well, the 'good guy' ones), and now I can fill in the gaps.

First off, Here's what i'm getting as an image of the 'area' and Group formation.

Assuming Rauland as the 'center' of the map (I'm seeing it as being one of the large, main countries, the "Britain" of the world) West is Kadrath, and west beyond that is the great sea, on the other side of which rests Dormith.
To the north and East Lie Mountainous regions inhabited by the Alliance (Tutek's people).  Beyond them to the East is the great desert, and within that desert is the Eternal Empire.
Obviously there are also a few other countries to the north of Rauland, and some to the south, though a lot of the area south of Rauland has also been overtaken by the Dormithians.

Gerard's from the Trade City(name?) which lies in the mountains, at the border of Rauland, the Alliance, and the Desert.
Mei Ying is from the Eternal Empire.
Ur was from an un-named country to the north.
Tutek is from the Alliance.
Braham is from the desert.
D'raven is on the Bazaar. *Doesn't matter for party/world backstory, he gets written in later*

SIDE NOTE : I thought I remembered reading something more about the 'storm king/lord', but I've been over the entire thread and can only find a couple short references.  SO, I'm going to make "Belzer" Actually one of the Dragoons(See below)








*OOC:*


I'm seeing Two overarching storylines so far, The Dormithian invasion, dragoons, and repelling them being the first, finally ending, and then the ArchLich storyline starting up after the return from the Underworld.  Threads of the undead line seep in before the first is finished, weaving in with Gerard's undead hunting and a bit with Mei Ling's knowledge from the Eternal Empire.








Queendom of Dormith - About 50 years ago, after their THIRD failed invasion of Rauland, Dormith started a secret genetic weapons program.  With a combination of Gnomish Science and powerful magics, they bred soldiers of draconic blood (dragonborn/dragonkith/spellscales) with great physical and magical potential.  These 'children' were raised as warriors, trained and schooled relentlessly until they could best their teachers in both martial and magical prowess, before being gifted with vile demonic powers and powerful magical artifacts and set upon each other to find the best.
Finally, their labours saw fruit, with six of the 'Dragoons' having survived the rigours of the training and infighting.  They were sent out into the world secretly, to work undercover for Dormith.

Two went to Rauland.  Heroes disappeared, Entire companies of soldiers were wiped out by 'rogue monsters', Supernatural disasters befell the land, and more and more people were left to fend for themselves.
One of them, and his slave ring, was finally defeated by the Legion (See Ur's Background), at which point the other retreated to Kadrath.
Two went North to the Alliance in the mountains(Tutek's background), and began their plans to disrupt this Alliance, causing strife and war.  They raised a small army over the years and caused a mystical draught, but were eventually beaten by the Legion and Alliance's combined might.  One was killed, the other managed to escape.
One went far to the east, past Rauland, Crossing the great desert to disrupt the Eternal Empire and keep it busy until Dormith was ready to expand that far.  
The sixth disappeared.

Having defeated Three of the dragoons, and stopped the Draught, the Legion, The Alliance, and Rauland join together to finally push the Dormithians from Kadrath, defeating the fourth Dragoon in the process.

During the week-long Celebration, Tutek angers a demi-god and is cast to the underworld, his companions following to save him, after which they catch onto the trail of Iridex the lich king.

It is eventually discovered that the ArchLich has hidden strongholds all across the continent, and one by one the Legion tracks down and destroys them, piecing together his plans.  
For centuries, Iridex had lain imprisoned in the mountains by a powerful magical artifact...
But the Mystical Draught of the Dormithian Dragoons had been powerful indeed, as they had located and drained magic from this artifact, unknowingly releasing the ArchLich.  He immediately set about restoring his once glorious empire, which had been turned to dust and sand - The Great Desert had once housed a vast empire of which he had been king, an Empire which had been destroyed by a powerful magic many centuries ago.
(The remants of which managed to salvage the small portion within the Five Pillars which became the Eternal Empire).

Driven mad by his loss and long imprisonment, Iridex meant to raze the Eternal Empire and form a new, Undead Empire.  It is revealed that one of the Draoons who freed him, and Escaped the legion, has now joined him and taken the name 'Belzer the storm king".  

Only the relentlessness of the Legion managing to stop him, as the heroes destroy each of his strongholds, finally chasing Belzer across the desert and finding Iridex's  'necropolis' raised from beneath the sands.  They infiltrate it and destroy the ArchLich and his phylactery once and for all, mere miles from the borders of the Eternal Empire.

Finally having defeated the ArchLich, Mei Ying returns to her home strengthened and a hero, to restore her order's honour.  After some grand adventuring and help from her companions, she manages to reveal that the faction opposing her return is actually under the influence of the nearly forgotten Fifth dragoon, and she challenges him to a trial, narrowly defeating him after a grueling battle.









*OOC:*


I decided to go with Iridex as the Lich.  I had originally intended to use a different character, but it doesn't really matter.
I also altered my timeline a bit.  I had originally inteded to have the Lich be the most recent thing, but that now happens before Mei Ling's return to the empire.  In fact it's likely a catalyst for her return, with the proximity and her now being viewed (Perhaps grudgingly by some) as a Hero.








Planar Quest Clues: 
OK, so I've decided against the riddle method b/c honestly I suck at riddles, and don't want to get into the "I think it's easy you think it's hard/Vice versa" Problem.
In Lieu of that, I'm going to give you what you've figured out so far.  Your characters have only managed to put all the pieces together recently, after the "Fall of the ArchLich" and "Mei Ling's Homecoming".

During their breaking of the Slave Ring, they first discover the existence of the Dragoons, and that they have been reinforced with extraplanar power.  It is later discovered that some of the Power used in their 'creation' and the weapons they wielded were not any form of magic known to mortals, not Divine, nor Arcane, nor even Psionic. 

The Artifact that had been holding Iridex in check was made by the same Power, the reason why the Dragoons were drawn to it in the first place, and is why they were able to harness its immense Power, though they themselves did not seem to know this, thinking it was just their natural magical talent. 
Even though this artifact was shattered and almost completely drained, Iridex used what remained of his 'cage' to protect himself, even the tiny portion of Power that remained was enough to rival the most powerful magics (Mei Ying's "Iridex's cage" Vest of Archmagi)

In fact, throughout their search for Iridex, they found much of his research and writings, discovering that he was in fact the one responsible for the destruction of his Empire, as he had long ago stumbled onto the ancient Power, and in his too-rash efforts to control it, he lost everything.  
A small order of monks (I'm thinking Mei-Ying's fallen order) knew of what was happening, and managed to use their small understanding of the Power to save a portion of the kingdom, raising a ring of mountains to protect them from the withering, and then entrapping the newly-undead Iridex deep in the sea. far from their domain (Not knowing that the area would eventually become inhabited).
The Fifth Dragoon had uncovered this after his assignment to the Eternal Empire, and had sought to grasp this Power for Dormith, after gaining control of one of the factions, he turned it against the order, begging the extermination.  Many notes on the subject are discovered in his private quarters after he is defeated, and once they are translated, the companions are able to piece them together with the other information they've gained.

Most of the information Mei Ling's order had on the Power was lost or stolen, but Iridex and the Fifth Dragoon had both been looking for a tome that supposedly revealed much about the Power, and Mei Ling recalled an ancient story of her order about a holy book that was sent into a hidden and protected plane.

Through many divinations, consulting scholars, and pouring over the clues they had found, the Legion discovered that there were two others looking for this book, who had already left the Prime Material Plane in search of it : The missing 'Sixth Dragoon', and a powerful Vampire Lord who had allied himself with Iridex, long enough to find out about the Power and go after it himself, leaving the ArchLich to his final death at the Legion's hands.

*Some of this information came from Tutek's sentient weapon, Sendesemcal, who had just started researching the Power when he had been entrapped.  He  begrudgingly shared (After much cajoling and threatening) the little he knew.

After they had seemingly hit a dead end ("It's on a hidden Plane" being somewhat of a hard needle to find), the frustrated party received help from the most unlikely of sources.. 
Some of them had bags or portals linked to a Merchants Plane known as the Bazaar, though a business known as "Black Feather Trading", and after a few weeks at their dead end, they had discovered invitations in their bags to come to the Bazaar and discuss their situation.









*OOC:*



The party has a few items they 'salvaged' from the Dragoons/Iridex which are imbued with a tiny fraction of this Power.  These items may react/change as the campaign progresses.
Included in this are: 
Mei Ying's Eye of the Storm, Belzer's last breath, and Iridex's cage
*If any of the rest of you would like a 'souvenir' Please pick something suiting to have been taken from a defeated 'draconic fighter-mage' style enemy.  
I was originaly only going to go with one or two each, but Shayuri did a great job and put a lot of work into his item background, so I'm giving him three.


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## Jemal (Nov 12, 2012)

Had originally also included this, a collection of quotes from various PC's that included random background info for comparison.  Will post it here now b/c apparently it was too big putting it all together or something.. ><
EDIT : OK.. I think I figured it out.. I originally had it in an Sblock, and it would NOT work.. apparently either that's too big for an sblock, or the site thought I was plagiarizing lol



> My character's quest then took her here, partly in search of knowledge outside the realm, and partly to help her avoid 'Imperial Entanglements.' At least for much of her adventures. More recently, the faction that she was up against was outmanuevered, allowing her more free access to her homeland. Of course, by then she liked it here too.
> 
> Okay, assuming we go with Binder's framework, which seems very good to me, then I'd install a natural barrier to Rauland opposite the border with Dorminth; a mountain range spanning the eastern side of the country. On the other side of those mountains is a desert...and through that desert, if one knows the ways, one can eventually arrive at a place who's name comes roughly to Eternal Empire of the Jade Throne, or sometimes by an older name Under the Five Pillars of Heaven. The 'pillars' are a ring of tall, unusually narrow mountains that surround the Empire's outer perimeter, creating a barrier of sorts that helps keep it moist and temperate despite the nearby arid area...as well as forming a natural defense against intruders.
> 
> ...


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## Voda Vosa (Nov 12, 2012)

I like it, I feel I'm already playing!


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## Jemal (Nov 12, 2012)

Actually, VV, That reminds me!

On that note, the first portion of the campaign will likely require very little rolling, so If you guys would like to proceed to the roleplaying, investigating, etc startup portion while finalizing everything, just say so and I'll post up the IC soon as I can.


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## Scott DeWar (Nov 12, 2012)

I have a fun day of going to places that have free food for veterans today. I shall AT LEAST dwell on a good name for G's 'hometown'. maybe:
run by The Three Queens Hisraea, Iobanesh and Jalzee.


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## Shayuri (Nov 12, 2012)

Jemal, that's a great job uniting a lot of disparate backgrounds into a cohesive whole! Very impressed. 

Making Belzer one of the Dragoons that had fallen in with the Archlich works perfectly as well. I shall update item descriptions to reflect this.

I'll also work out some details on Mei's order, since it has been worked into the plot. The only thing I had on them so far was that it was deemed heretical for asserting that mortals could harness their potential within their lifetime, which is opposed to the doctrine that one's lot in each life is essentially fixed by fate, and living it well and obediently means a better life in the next turn of one's wheel. That doctrine was very popular with the Imperial bureaucracy, and the recent legitimization of Mei's order (which I will name soon! ) makes for philosophical competition unwelcome to many who have power. The successful Trial and Mei's status as a hero makes direct retribution problematic, but there are subtler ways...

Very excited to play now!


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## Scott DeWar (Nov 13, 2012)

City name: Kaainsbridge

Was built on the foundations of an ancient city names Caain's bridge after the founder one Caaineth 'ut Baaernock. As far as any know, only the name is known as it was translated from the ancient runes on the arch that framed the bridge spanning the river Oshlute. It was from a fallen empire that only hints of were found by the Bards and druids. Some say that even the dragons forgot about this one, while others say the dragons wish they could forget it.

more to come, just in pain from a bruised rib and ego.


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## Voda Vosa (Nov 13, 2012)

Jemal said:


> Actually, VV, That reminds me!
> 
> On that note, the first portion of the campaign will likely require very little rolling, so If you guys would like to proceed to the roleplaying, investigating, etc startup portion while finalizing everything, just say so and I'll post up the IC soon as I can.




I'd like that. 
I still have to resolve the money left over. I really don't know what to do with that 300k leftover. Suggestions are appreciated.


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## Binder Fred (Nov 13, 2012)

Ack! Just enough time to read it once (Sounds good, Jemal <thumbs up> ). Will digest over the next few days.



Jemal said:


> *If any of the rest of you would like a 'souvenir' Please pick something suiting to have been taken from a defeated 'draconic fighter-mage' style enemy.



To help guide our decision, is it a case of "one powerful vs two average" or "The more, the better"? i.e. are there any advantages to picking just one vs two?


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## Jemal (Nov 13, 2012)

BF, et all - Power of the items you choose as souvenirs doesn't matter, it's mostly for fluff.  Any extra power they grant you later will be based off how the campaign goes, what story you've got in them, etc, not what items you choose or how many.  I'm hoping there will be a lot of fluff/roleplaying involved.


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## Wrahn (Nov 13, 2012)

Voda Vosa said:


> I'd like that.
> I still have to resolve the money left over. I really don't know what to do with that 300k leftover. Suggestions are appreciated.




137,500 +5 Inherent Bonus to Strength
 53,300 Ring of Protection +5 and Feather falling (net cost 51,100)
 19,750 Boots of Speed and Striding and Springing (net cost -16,250)
121,300 +5 Large Mithral Full Plate of Heavy Fortification (Net cost 93,300)

That is 265,650

Further suggestions:

Change the gloves of natural armor to a shirt of natural armor.
Gloves affinity is for quickness, Shirt is for physical improvement.  Technically the cost for glove of natural armor should be 75,000 (x1.5 for cross affinity) but switching it to the shirt/vest slot keeps the 50,000 cost and you don't have anything in that slot

You may want to consider a luck stone to further boost your saves


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## Binder Fred (Nov 14, 2012)

Ok. Then I think I'll go for just the Ring of Returning (which right now allows him to bat spells and arrows back to their original owners ). Captured from Cali-Anna, the most ninja-like/darkness-based of the female dragoons (say the Third one, one of the two we defeated in Kadrath?).

Two questions re the Power, Jemal, if I can? 

1. Does it have a distinctive feel, either when using it yourself, it being used *on* you or just used by another in the vicinity? Can you tell when it's being used instead of magic, for example? 

2. Can it do anything arcane or divine magics can't, or is it more like a huge power source that can be shaped however the user wants?

Not really a question, more of an suggestion/brain storming with my fellow players, but what if we were seeking the Power for more specific reasons than just to attempt to keep it out of the wrong hands (a worthy goal in and of itself, granted)? We could go Global Catastrophe with "ONLY the POWER can saaave us!" </TV evangelist voice>. Ur could go for a "Ultimate Law is Ultimate Good" approach, but with so many chaotics/freedom-lovers in the party, that probably won't work... Is there anything that we could want that *only* ultimate power would give us?


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## Scott DeWar (Nov 14, 2012)

What if the ultimate power was connected to 'concordant opposition? ultimate balance = ultimate power.

feeling a bit better then yesterday when  this happened . taking max Vicodin right now.


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## kinem (Nov 14, 2012)

Braham's souvenir will be his Fell Amulet (amulet of con +6 and wis +6 and natural armor +5 and greater fell power (+2d6 to eldritch blast)).


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## Scott DeWar (Nov 14, 2012)

There was a headband worn by the Lich:
headband of  mental superiority  144,000 GP Body slot: head
+6 to int, wis, cha 

something of note is:

a) The headband grants the wearer an enhancement bonus to all mental ability scores (Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma) of +2, +4, or +6. Treat this as a temporary ability bonus for the first 24 hours the headband is worn.* The headband also grants skill ranks as a headband of vast intelligence.*

and 

b) a headband of vast intelligence has one skill associated with it per +2 bonus it grants. After being worn for 24 hours, the headband grants a number of skill ranks in those skills equal to the wearer's total Hit Dice. These ranks do not stack with the ranks a creature already possesses. These skills are chosen when the headband is created. *If no skill is listed, the headband is assumed to grant skill ranks in randomly determined Knowledge skills.*

[emphasis mine]
What if the knowledge the band has is in association with what we are in search of on this quest? Knowledge planes-perhaps a living knowledge?


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## Jemal (Nov 14, 2012)

Scott - That's a pathfinder thing, in 3.5 int boosting items do neither of those things.  That would cost extra if you'd like it as an ad-hoc thing, or perhaps something it could gain as it 'powers up'.
Edit - Actually, the second half could be done by making it an Intelligent item, and giving the item knowledge skills.  This would be fairly interesting, an intelligence born of the Power, and a plot device I could use.)
[sblock=intelligent item]







> Intelligent Items are allowed (In fact, I encourage at least one in the party), but with the following caveats:
> Any intelligent item will have: 18 in one mental stat, 16 in another, 14 in the third; 3 lesser powers, 1 or 2 greater powers; 120 ft. darkvision, blindsense, and hearing, Speech, Telepathy with wielder; AND a special purpose. Base price of +10,000GP + powers. You will NOT have to pay the special power cost (But see below).
> Also, if it's your weapon, it can be a special material (Adamantine, Cold iron, etc) as a free upgrade.
> 
> ...



How about the headband was forged out of the last of Iridex's humanity when the power destroyed his empire and transformed him into the archlich?
You could take two lesser powers as knowledges (Planar, Arcane), whatever greater power you want, and I'd give it a Special purpose trying to prevent the same catastrophe from happening again, and I'll figure out a unique special power for it.  The total would add 20,000GP plus whatever cost of the greater power you choose.  
What u think?[/sblock]

Kinem - Excellent, I like one of them being warlocky, we'll say that was the one you defeated while taking back Kadrath. 

BF - I'm great with it being from a 'ninja/darkness' one, but I'd suggest making it the one from the Eternal Empire to suit the ninja-ness.



> 1. Does it have a distinctive feel, either when using it yourself, it being used *on* you or just used by another in the vicinity? Can you tell when it's being used instead of magic, for example?
> 
> 2. Can it do anything arcane or divine magics can't, or is it more like a huge power source that can be shaped however the user wants?




1. If you were attuned to it you could tell the difference, and divination's react different to it, but it doesn't have any 'passive' feel to it.  
Anyone with spellcraft would be able to tell the difference between a standard spell and one enhanced with the Power.

2.  You guys aren't quite sure yet, your knowledge of it is still very limited.  This is as much about finding out WHAT it is as how to get it.
Though you're certain it's capable of much more than standard arcane/divine powers.  



> Not really a question, more of an suggestion/brain storming with my fellow players, but what if we were seeking the Power for more specific reasons than just to attempt to keep it out of the wrong hands (a worthy goal in and of itself, granted)? We could go Global Catastrophe with "ONLY the POWER can saaave us!" </TV evangelist voice>. Ur could go for a "Ultimate Law is Ultimate Good" approach, but with so many chaotics/freedom-lovers in the party, that probably won't work... Is there anything that we could want that *only* ultimate power would give us?




Actually I'd rather not give you a "We MUST get the power" push b/c I was hoping part of the campaign would revolve around the differing views of whether the Power should be used, or guarded/possibly destroyed so it CAN'T be used.


So far we've got a Headband and Cage from the lich, the Fell Amulet from the Warlock Dragoon, the Staff and Glasses from the Storm Dragoon, and the ring from the Ninja Dragoon.


----------



## Scott DeWar (Nov 14, 2012)

Jemal said:


> Scott - That's a pathfinder thing, in 3.5 int items do neither of those things.  That would cost extra if you'd like it as an ad-hoc thing, or perhaps something it could gain as it 'powers up'.
> Edit - Actually, the second half could be done by making it an Intelligent item, and giving the item knowledge skills.  This would be fairly interesting, an intelligence born of the Power, and a plot device I could use.)




I have extra cash, maybe I  can add intelligence?

edit:

 * Mental Ability Scores: Two at 19, one at 10 	
 * Communication: Speech, telepathy
 * Capabilities: Four lesser powers and three greater powers
 * Senses: 120 ft. darkvision, blindsense, and hearing
 * Base Price Modifier: +15,000 gp

Lesser powers:
 * 10 ranks in knowledge planes + 5000

this might be all that is known [to give dm caveat] to enact, gems must be inserted in blank spots to equal to what is needed to activate power


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## Jemal (Nov 14, 2012)

Edited this into the prev post but you'd already started your reply i guess.



> Intelligent Items are allowed (In fact, I encourage at least one in the party), but with the following caveats:
> Any intelligent item will have: 18 in one mental stat, 16 in another, 14 in the third; 3 lesser powers, 1 or 2 greater powers; 120 ft. darkvision, blindsense, and hearing, Speech, Telepathy with wielder; AND a special purpose. Base price of +10,000GP + powers. You will NOT have to pay the special power cost (But see below).
> Also, if it's your weapon, it can be a special material (Adamantine, Cold iron, etc) as a free upgrade.
> 
> ...



How about the headband was forged out of the last of Iridex's humanity when the power destroyed his empire and transformed him into the archlich?
You could take two lesser powers as knowledges (Planar, Arcane), whatever greater power you want, and I'd give it a Special purpose trying to prevent the same catastrophe from happening again, and I'll figure out a unique special power for it.  The total would add 20,000GP plus whatever cost of the greater power you choose.  
What u think?


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## Scott DeWar (Nov 14, 2012)

ha! we were typing at same time i think. I will work later on ideas


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## Scott DeWar (Nov 16, 2012)

Sorry, still hurting from monday.


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## Scott DeWar (Nov 16, 2012)

Jemal said:


> Edited this into the prev post but you'd already started your reply i guess.
> 
> 
> How about the headband was forged out of the last of Iridex's humanity when the power destroyed his empire and transformed him into the archlich?****
> ...





****: What about if iradex's humanity was twisted into THE POWER and that humanity a a small portion of THE POWER were infused into the headband at Iradex's destruction. this THE POWER also has an affininty buried deep with in the old foundations of Kain's Bridge


 * Mental Ability Scores: Two at 19, one at 10 	
 * Communication: Speech, telepathy
 * Capabilities: Four lesser powers and three greater powers
 * Senses: 120 ft. darkvision, blindsense, and hearing
 * Base Price Modifier: 20,000 + 10,000

Lesser powers:
 * 10 ranks in knowledge planes 
 * 10 ranks in knowledge arcane 
 * to be determined by DM Jamal
 * to be determined by DM Jamal

Greater power:
 * Item can use  dismissal  on a foe 1/day
 * to be determined by DM Jamal
 * to be determined by DM Jamal

Special purpose
 * to be determined by DM Jamal

Special purpose power
 * to be determined by DM Jamal


this might be all that is known [to give dm caveat] to enact, gems must be inserted in blank spots to equal to what is needed to activate power.

This headband was found as part of what was left of the bones and equipment of the defeated Archlich Iredex. It seemed to call to Gerard while the dust of the battle was still settleing. It or rather *SHE* revealed some of her knowledge to him.


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## Scott DeWar (Nov 16, 2012)

Scott DeWar said:


> I have a fun day of going to places that have free food for veterans today. I shall AT LEAST dwell on a good name for G's 'hometown'. maybe:
> run by The Three Queens Hisraea, Iobanesh and Jalzee.






Scott DeWar said:


> City name: Kaainsbridge
> 
> Was built on the foundations of an ancient city names Caain's bridge after the founder one Caaineth 'ut Baaernock. As far as any know, only the name is known as it was translated from the ancient runes on the arch that framed the bridge spanning the river Oshlute. It was from a fallen empire that only hints of were found by the Bards and druids. Some say that even the dragons forgot about this one, while others say the dragons wish they could forget it.
> 
> more to come, just in pain from a bruised rib and ego.






Scott DeWar said:


> Ok, I looked for
> 
> 
> > Fighting armored ogres riding even more heavily armored dire bears in the frozen wastes below the South Peak Glaciers. Ur uses Expansion for the first time.
> ...




It seems I am needing to come up with this and other information, can someone give me focus and tell me if there was something else I am forgetting? I will wor on this here over the next few days.

Sorry for the delay. As mentioned, last years medical trauma and Monday's bruised rib are conspiring against me here.


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## Jemal (Nov 17, 2012)

Anybody else have a weigh in on this? 
So far one person said sounds good but nobody else.  Were the rest of you wanting to wait for things to be finalized before starting?



> On that note, the first portion of the campaign will likely require very little rolling, so If you guys would like to proceed to the roleplaying, investigating, etc startup portion while finalizing everything, just say so and I'll post up the IC soon as I can.


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## kinem (Nov 17, 2012)

Start away.


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## Shayuri (Nov 17, 2012)

Oops, apologies.

I am ready to RP with Mei Ying.

Just finalizing spell list really.

Jemal, is Ghostform from Spell Compendium okay? Looks like a very nice defensive 8th level spell to replace pmorph any object, and has some scouting utility as well.


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## Scott DeWar (Nov 17, 2012)

I actually was not ready mentally at the time of the announcement, but since then have 'recharged' and I am ready for rp.


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## Jemal (Nov 18, 2012)

At work ATM, will check that spell and see about starting up the RP when I get home.


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## Scott DeWar (Nov 18, 2012)

Jemal said:


> At work ATM, will check that spell and see about starting up the RP when I get home.




   [MENTION=9026]Jemal[/MENTION]: this might help . . . . .
 . . . . 
cleared out text of potentially compromising material
 . . . . .


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## Binder Fred (Nov 18, 2012)

And I'm back from the sucking vortex of time that is the dreaded "too much fraking work to even have time to breathe"!  



Jemal said:


> BF - I'm great with it being from a 'ninja/darkness' one, but I'd suggest making it the one from the Eternal Empire to suit the ninja-ness.



Well, since the two (dragoon and Empire) have no cultural/origin link in-game, I was deliberatly trying to seperate them (so that the "Eternal Empire" dragoon would have a different feel than his or her surroundings when we encountered it, and idem for the Kadrath one), but you're the DM and I have no strong attachment to either version. I was sort of hoping Ur would have acquired the trinket in question earlier than that though... Perhaps "ninja-y" was the wrong term and I should have gone with "roguish" -- but that has other connotations... "Stealth/darkness based"?

I have a convention/short-courses next week, so I might miss a few days here and there, but otherwise Ur is ready to roleplay!


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## Binder Fred (Nov 18, 2012)

*Frozen Bones, Charriot of the Clouds and Pizair the Blind?*



Scott DeWar said:


> It seems I am needing to come up with this and other information



Just brainstorming again here, Scott and Shayuri (and now Jemal), but how about the heart of Scott's Frozen Bones adventure (see the Scrolls of History for a run down) is how we meet Pizair the Blind artificier from Shayuri's background? What if the raising of that undead king of Giants required the crafting - say - a very special magical gem (the Heart of Devastation?). Ogruk was kidnapping/black-mailing/torturing blind Pizair (how he lost his eyes?) to craft the thing for him. The party freed him just after he finished crafting a (deliberatly flawed) version of the gem, and the secret of that flaw eventually allowed the group to shatter the Heart right as Ogruk was about to complete his ritual! Grateful, Pizair later crafted the Charriot of the Clouds for the party at minimum cost (well, he wasn't going to just *give* it away, was he?) and remains a valued friend to the Legion to this day, accepting their orders and sometimes even given them priority over other clients (when he feels its fully justified).

(Inumerable fragments of the Heart still exist as minor yet sometimes very troublesome artefacts called the Shards of Devastation).

What do you guys think?


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## Jemal (Nov 18, 2012)

BF - 
Me likey.

Also keep in mind that the dragoon from the Eternal Empire IS one of the Kadrath dragoons, he was just undercover, undermining the empire for Dormith and destroying Mei-Ling's order so he could try to get the Power for himself.  I suggested that one b/c that's a good reason for him to have learned stealthy/ninja stuff, as opposed to the others who're more combat/magic oriented.

Scott - Yes that was helpful, but I don't think it's allowed to post text in full if it's not from an open source book (And I don't think the spell compendium is).

Shayuri - So the spell seems to be pretty much what I thought it would be, which is a bit problematic.  As I said to someone else here re: an item a while back, I have problems with incorporeality in the hands of PC's, every time It's caused me headaches.  I'd prefer if you took something else.


I will have to postpone the IC a little actually, I need to talk to D'raven about some stuff.


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## Scott DeWar (Nov 18, 2012)

I like it.


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## Scott DeWar (Nov 18, 2012)

Jemal said:


> Scott - Yes that was helpful, but I don't think it's allowed to post text in full if it's not from an open source book (And I don't think the spell compendium is).



I will clear out the text to protect the integrity of EN World.


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## Shayuri (Nov 18, 2012)

Oh, I missed that. My apologies, Jemal. I'll keep looking.


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## Binder Fred (Nov 19, 2012)

It was in the context of Ur's Ring of Metal and Stone, specifically its Earth Glide component (which Jemal has kept the right to take away should it prove unbalancing/plot breaking).

What about the Pizair/Frozen Bones idea,  [MENTION=4936]Shayuri[/MENTION] (see my last post)? Thoughts?


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## Binder Fred (Nov 19, 2012)

Uploaded a picture of Ur as he stood in the Eternal Empire. The rune on his forehead only *seems* to be the chinese character for "Dragon" in this picture (). It's actually the Celestial rune for "Thunderer", one of Thor's numerous holy names. The tree stands for Deep Roots, Stability and Regeneration. The kneepads stand for coolness. 

EDIT= Probably took those off Iridex or one of his lieutenants, actually -- though, to the best of everyone's knowledge, they are utterly non-magical.


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## Shayuri (Nov 19, 2012)

Oh yeah actually. Forgot to post. Hee.

Well going by my original concept for Pizair, calling him an 'ally' is a bit of a stretch. I envision him as a mysterious being with an agenda of his own which is perhaps arguably a little sinister (balor eye? angel tongue?) but who's skills make him invaluable. Mei-Ying has done business with him, but he's not someone that you ask favors of, or aid from, lightly. 

I expect he would have Mei on his list of 'good customers,' but that's as close to an ally as I'd think we could call him.


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## Jemal (Nov 19, 2012)

Yeah what shay says is the same vibe I was getting too - Mysterious master-crafter. 
If you did want him worked in somehow to the Chariot that could make sense, perhaps they helped him out with something and - not liking being in their debt - He forged the chariot for them as thanks, and now considers them square.  Though he may have some more respect for them now, he's by no means an 'ally'.

Shayuri - If you don't want PaO, I'd suggest Polar Ray or Horrid Wilting for combat spells, or Telekinetic Sphere for defense.  
Alternately, don't forget you can always learn a lower level spell in place of that, so if there's any 6th or 7th lvl spells you'd like to know instead..

BF - Just a thougt re: the kneepads.  You could make them your 'bag of stuff'.. One kneepad being the storage section, the other being the 'random stuff' section, that'd be kinda neat.   Mechanically the same thing, just.. amusing.



IC should be heading up soonish, making a couple minor changes to the 'invitations' I spoke of in my earlier post.  
Also, added the background info I posted to the Rogue's gallery so it'll be easier to find later.


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## Jemal (Nov 19, 2012)

http://www.enworld.org/forum/playing-game/331962-gaming-w-jemal-planar-quest-ic-prologue.html

THAR SHE BLOWS


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## Shayuri (Nov 19, 2012)

I'd like Pmorph Any Object, but there's some contention...so here's my proposal.

How about we make a customized version of Polymorph Any Object, that has some code changes to make it specific to your campaign's rules? We'll remove it's ability to affect creatures and remove the spells that can target creatures from its list of spells it can emulate.

We can then, to keep it 8th level, perhaps consider some increased ability when affecting objects. For example, perhaps we allow some utility to transmute objects into valuable materials, with limits? Here are some possibilities:

*Transmutation Without A Circle:* Using Pmorph Any Object to change objects into valuable materials invokes a law of equivalent exchange; gold piece value cannot be spontaneously created, but it can be altered. To change a sword into adamantine, one would have to use a normal sword AND other materials that equal the value of an adamantine sword. This would make the spell the equivalent of a 'portable shop' for any object that doesn't involve magic and enchantment...which at these levels is most of them, really. Cold Iron would still be off limits, since it's not the material that makes that unique, but rather the manner by which it is harvested and processed.

*No Cheating! Well, maybe a little:* Transmuting an object into a substantially more valuable object reduces the duration factor, and prohibits permanence. I'd suggest using the rules for Major Creation as a good guideline. A spellcraft check of fairly easy DC allow someone to spot 'faked' valuables, meaning that it can't be used to defraud a canny merchant. Further, using the spell to attempt fraud would be a criminal and unlawful act.

*Simplify, simplify, simplify:* No new special rules. Rather, we simply add a few spells to the list of spells that can be emulated to replace the ones lost. Major Creation, Fabricate, and perhaps something like Wall of Stone or similar "change stuff into other configuration" type spells would be under consideration.

And if none of these ideas appeal, I'll just take Horrid Wilting. Maybe reskin it as something less gruesome though.


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## Binder Fred (Nov 20, 2012)

Great start.  I especially like that Gerard and Ur posted pretty much the same thought one minute apart: now that's synchronisity!


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## Jemal (Nov 20, 2012)

> A simple wooden cabin a few miles from town nestled in a nice clearing surrounded by lush woodlands, it was quietly beautiful, out of the way but not overly so. It seemed like just the sort of place a tired adventurer might retire to after years of saving the world..
> 
> The door stood open, an inviting smell coming from within, and a freshly painted sign simply stating "Welcome Heroes! Please come in."
> 
> Though some were wary, the method of invitation delivery and the knowledge that they were some of the finest mages and warriors in the world helped allay any fears that this could be a trap.



I find it humourous that you all discussed opening the open door, and Tutek managed to knock _mortar_ off the door frame of the simple wood cabin, lol.

Also, BF, not sure what you meant by 'morcelating forest'.  I tried googling it but the only thing I could come up with Morcellate, which is apparently a medical term for dividing tissue into it's component pieces.


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## Voda Vosa (Nov 20, 2012)

Ain't mortar the dust that accumulates on buildings?


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## Shayuri (Nov 20, 2012)

Nope. It's the cement that people use to stick bricks together with.


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## Binder Fred (Nov 21, 2012)

Jemal said:


> the only thing I could come up with Morcellate, which is apparently a medical term for dividing tissue into it's component pieces.



Same root meaning. I meant to evoke the breaking up the forest into smaller clumps as one approached the civilized banks of the White... Didn't work, I take it.


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## Binder Fred (Nov 21, 2012)

Scott DeWar said:


> *OOC:*
> 
> 
> heh, I have no way to even try to get those.



Dangling baits?

Updated the Frozen Bones adventure description in the RG, by the way.


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## Jemal (Nov 21, 2012)

Bf, I think he was referring to the skill check DC's


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## Scott DeWar (Nov 21, 2012)

Jemal said:


> Bf, I think he was referring to the skill check DC's




that would be correct!


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## Binder Fred (Nov 22, 2012)

And me that thought it was some kind of dirty joke. <disapointed >


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## Shayuri (Nov 22, 2012)

Confusion. He's leaning on someone's chair? I'll assume he's still hidden via Hide in Plain Sight or similar, though that would be a little weird if he's actually talking still. Is he throwing his voice?


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## kinem (Nov 22, 2012)

Honestly, there's been a major failure of suspension of disbelief throughout this whole scene. If the 3.5 rules say he can still hide, then the rules need to be replaced. It's giving me some ideas on how to fix the hide skill.


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## Shayuri (Nov 22, 2012)

He has a Shadowdancer level, so as long as there's shadows, he can hide.

But talking should give us Listen checks to locate him.

More to the point, his motivation in hiding seems odd, unless he's just messing around. But then, none of the rest of us are really big on senses of humor.


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## Binder Fred (Nov 22, 2012)

I could be wrong, but think there's an invisibility effect at play and the Stealth is for us not to hear/sense him moving about. Anyways, as jemal hasn't spoken up I figure he's alright with it, so let's just assume that it makes sense mechanically and roleplay what we see -- which is nothing!


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## kinem (Nov 22, 2012)

It's rules-legal due to the Shadowdancer (su) ability. It's just not making much sense.

He's not invisible; if he were I'd see him as I have see invisibility always active. He's just hiding in shadows even if they don't actually conceal him. I also have darkvision, so it's not as if the shadows actually impede my sight.

To be fair, the ranger (ex) ability makes even less sense. The ranger's favored class categories also make no sense. The 3.x ranger needs a major overhaul.


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## Shayuri (Nov 22, 2012)

Since it's kind of fallen back a few pages, Jemal, any word on the ideas I floated at the end of page 28?


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## Jemal (Nov 22, 2012)

Shay - I have my threads set to display 20 posts per page, so page numbers are different.  I'm guessing you're talking about post # 280?


Shayuri said:


> I'd like Pmorph Any Object, but there's some contention...so here's my proposal.
> 
> How about we make a customized version of Polymorph Any Object, that has some code changes to make it specific to your campaign's rules? We'll remove it's ability to affect creatures and remove the spells that can target creatures from its list of spells it can emulate.
> 
> ...





I like something akin to the last option.. hows this:
As Polymorph any Object, with the following exceptions: 
Target: Can only affect objects or self.
In addition to the normal allotment, Can also duplicate Wall of Stone, Wall of Iron, Wall of Ice, or Fabricate.

Also, May duplicate Major Creation with the following changes: 
Duration/Effect: 
Vegetable matter, Stone, base metals; 1 hr./levels; 50 cubic ft/lvl
Precious metals, Crystal, Gems; 10 min./level; 10 cubic ft/lvl *
Rare metal; 1 round/level; 1 cubic ft/lvl
*Craft check to make materials look 'real/permanent', opposed by Perception or Appraise check(May make both checks, if either succeeds they realize it's fake)*
In addition to the standard inability to use as spell components, Any attempt to use any object created by this effect as the target of further transmutation causes the second spell to be wasted and the first to expire immediately.



As far as the hide in plain sight ability - it's never really made sense, but it's a supernatural ability in a magical world, so I just accept it, kinda like the ability to levitate or fling fireballs.   The problem isn't hide in plain sight though, it's Damien's overly high check. *waggles finger at D'raven*

I've also always thought that True Seeing should help spot hidden characters (In the computer game 'Neverwinter Nights' for example, it gave a bonus to spot checks).
I'm considering adding a similar component to it, but it's already a fairly strong spell, and hide characters are kinda reliant on not being seen.

And for the 'hearing him', listen/spot and hide/move silent are now just under 'perception' and 'stealth', and he has been moving before/after speaking.. 
I also believe I had discussed with him throwing his voice with bluff, which is why he posted a bluff check during his first speech, and sblocks within it.  I probably should've said something earlier about the ventriloquism bluff, maybe have it opposed by perception instead of sense motive, but I didn't think it would become a big deal, this was only supposed to be a roleplaying/meet&greet/have fun thread.


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## Shayuri (Nov 22, 2012)

Spellnstuff sounds good. Thanks.

As for hiding, I'm fine with it. No big deal for me ooc. It has created a bit if a trust issue, ic, but nothing that can't be surmounted.


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## D'Raven (Nov 22, 2012)

My character does have reasons he's doing what hes doing. He's D'Raven the craven. He's actually a bit cowardly. Also paranoid. He hides a lot as a way to deal with it. He can act haughty or confident if no one knows were he is. The reason he's not giving out info is the paranoia. If you look throu the raven loft heading of the character he's got two rooms that are immune to scrying.  Ones on the othere side of the door. But he doesn't like to talk about them unless he's in them. Fair warning in a couple posts he may start to pick pockets. He'll give the items right back or as a last ditch if people start to leave. In character he doesn't need the party just the fragments of power they've gathered. Once he gets people throu the door he'll do a full disclosure. He'd rather have the party help him if he can but the whole mess has him scared witless. He's sure he's gonna die trying to save the muliverse but unable to stop himself. Also I messed up the domain spell. I have un detectable alignment. I was reading nondetection little different. Detect alignment spells don't work but other detection spells do gonna change post.


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## D'Raven (Nov 23, 2012)

I'm gonna edit my toons back story a bit he'll be the 21st raven the son of Damian, Darrian. I'm dropping assassin from the build and back story. I'm going more unseen seer. It has a better feel to the character.


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## kinem (Nov 23, 2012)

D'Raven said:


> Fair warning in a couple posts he may start to pick pockets.




D'Raven, I strongly advise against that unless you want to turn this into a combat scene. I basically understand what you're trying to do and it's a cool enough idea in principle, but this sort of thing is very hard to pull off without antagonizing other PCs.

I was once in a face to face D&D game where one character was a halfling rogue who did nothing but hide from the other PCs. Of course he had a very high hide modifier so none of us could spot him. I don't remember if he also picked pockets, but he didn't help explore the dungeon; all he did was annoy us. It was a distraction from the game and not fun, and needless to say the hard feelings were not just in-character.

Happy Thanksgiving, everyone!


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## D'Raven (Nov 23, 2012)

That's why I gave fair warning. Yes this could cause problems. How ever i hate "Hi my name is(insert). I am now a member of your party." it normally happens when some one joins an existing game. But here it's at the beginning. It was a pc or an npc for this and a npc would have gone through a similar trail of is it a trap? Don't be mystrious! Here it's just happening on both sides of the fence. You have no reason to trust me other then I'm your only choice. I have no reason to trust you except that your my safest choice. I am causing some problems now but once this scene is finished things will be different. You don't act the same way around every one. These are people he's meeting for the first time. With interactions between pcs there may be friction. He's talking. He's answering questions as fully as he can. And he's getting desperate. His paranoia keeps him from talking now but when he feels safe it will go much better. It's going to start showing in the next few posts. You've seen him, how ever briefly. A young man. The lot of you are seasoned adventurers. Youve got an ogre with you. He's as threatened by you as you're distrustful of him. I'm not making excuses here just giving honest insights in to his character. I'm looking too the experienced, cool headed to take chargeof the situation. as much as he's talked you down you still are living legends of your world. Does trying to talk sense to someone while they are being hunted sound right? I'm not saying bend to me. talk to each other as well as my character. You all know each other but how much have you worked on inter character relations?

Edit: crotchety old man is crotchety.


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## Voda Vosa (Nov 23, 2012)

Well then I should keep in character as well. Keep in mind my character is a giant with bad temper.


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## kinem (Nov 23, 2012)

I'm _not_ saying there's a problem in this case, but regarding 'instant joining of the party': I certainly agree it should not be glossed over like it's nothing; but at the same time, players have a responsibility to create a character that will fit in the game, just as creating a paladin in an evil campaign would be no good.

In another face to face game, there was a new character who needed to be recruited into the party. He had some kind of mundane profession, I think, as his background. We tried several arguments to convince him to join us. He considered our best arguments and kept saying something to the effect of 'No, that's not quite enough to convince me'. Out of character, he claimed he (the player) really wanted his character to join the party and make it work. Well, it seemed to the rest of us that he had ample reason to do so in character, and was just holding out because the player was being a dick. The character had to be scrapped and he brought in a new one. He blamed us and the DM for not giving his PC good enough reasons to join the party; we blamed him. It was totally his fault and I wasn't too upset when he left the group.


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## Shayuri (Nov 23, 2012)

In fairness, I don't think this situation is anything as bad as what you describe. We just need a leap of faith. Leave it to the celestial to make one.  I hope people aren't upset...I do feel like this is something Mei would do...essentially simplifying the choice from if you trust this newcomer, which is complex and difficult, to if you trust her...which is hopefully an easier question,


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## Scott DeWar (Nov 23, 2012)

Man, I wish I had another level or 5 to place in scor.


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## kinem (Nov 23, 2012)

Wow, page 31.

Jemal, I made a few modifications to my feat and invocation selections.


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## Scott DeWar (Nov 23, 2012)

*proposal for spell*

orb of acid, greater
School: Conjuration (Creation) [Acid]
Level: Sorcerer/wizard 7
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: One orb of acid/2 caster levels [max 15]
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude partial; see text
Spell Resistance: No
Description:
An orb of acid about 3 inches across shoots from your palm at its target, 
dealing 1d6 points of acid damage per caster level (maximum 30d6). You 
must succeed on a ranged touch attack to hit your target. A creature 
struck by the orb takes damage and is stricken with wracking pain by the acid’s 
virulent causticity  for 1 round/2 caster levels. A successful Fortitude save negates the 
Pained effect but does not reduce the damage. The target suffers wracking pains that impose a -4 penalty on attack rolls, skill checks, and ability checks. 

I suggest the level of 7 because there are 3 levels between the lesser and base spells, so level 1,4 and 7.

An alternative to pain might be poison [con damage]


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## Shayuri (Nov 23, 2012)

Compare to Polar Ray to see why this spell makes me skeptical.


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## Scott DeWar (Nov 23, 2012)

in comparison to that, orb of acid seems almost too strong, broken.


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## Shayuri (Nov 23, 2012)

That was my thought too.


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## Binder Fred (Nov 24, 2012)

D'Raven said:


> true sight won't help because Damian is hiding in plain sight not invisible.



I politely disagree. Hide in Plain Sight is a supernatural ability that doesn't work in an anti magic shell. True seeing, contrarely to the very specific See Invisibility, shows things as they really are, i.e. devoid of all magical manipulation, including the true shape of polymorphed creatures, for example. As the text says, it will not help you spot a character *simply* hidding (emphasis mine), meaning it's not a boost to Perception or X-ray vision. It *would*, I most strongly believe, show the present scene exactly as it is if no concealing magic was in play: shadows nowhere near a character that is using a magical ability to wrap them around himself (or whatever the rational for HiPS is).

Could we get a ruling on this specific point, please  [MENTION=9026]Jemal[/MENTION]?


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## D'Raven (Nov 24, 2012)

... Sorry as some one who plays rogues the true seeing effect is something of a sticking point. It states on the spell that it does not help with hiding creatures. If you want to ... Sorry of this comes across as angry.... Screw over stealth characters more then they are already. cast arcane sight you will know exactly where a stealth character is because of their gear. Three people with detect magic cast could find a character who hides no matter their modifier unless they takes specific route or forgoes all magical gear. Then there is blind sense /sight, scent, tremorsense.  There are ways around everything. You want to see me you have a 1 in 20 chance jemal has ruled nat20s as plus 40. I stopped posting making a stealth check because not one person has made a single perception check.
My apologies. The problems of the hide skill bring out a sore spot with me. As jemal said it is not the skill it is my modifier. hides only saving grace is that is the easiest skill to jack up.


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## kinem (Nov 24, 2012)

Good point, Binder. My initial reading of TS was that it wouldn't work, but when you put it that way, it would make sense if it does.

Most likely, the 3.5 authors didn't actually consider how the two abilities would interact, because the edition was slapped together under time constraints.

Other than TS, glitterdust could help counter HiPS, though it has a big drawback if PCs are in the area at the time. Blindsight/blindsense reveals creatures without the need for a spot check, and there's a blindsight cleric spell (thus wand/potion/scroll) in SC. Scent could help too, though I think only summoned monsters could have that on our side. The spell locate creature could help if we know the person who's hiding; it's not so great at this but has other uses. There could be NPCs who are ninja-y so this info could come in handy.

D'Raven: I didn't roll perception because even with a natural 20 (as 40) I couldn't make the check.

Also, you are presumably on the same side as the rest of us, but there are bound to be NPCs with similar abilities.

I agree with what BF said not because of your case but because it makes sense to me.

As for stealth characters being 'screwed' you are looking at it the wrong way. Even if every PC could see you, that wouldn't be a problem, would it? The real question is, what percentage of monsters could see you? Some could, that's fine, but most would not.


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## D'Raven (Nov 24, 2012)

I hate fighting dragons, jemal likes using dragons. They have a 50% chance to hit me because they can't miss my ac. As an example. A lot of monsters at this level have special senses. Jemal is also partial to making npc enemies that are designed to challenge a party. If he did this by randomly pulling monsters out of the Manuel's ... Well at this level those fights might as well be cinematics. Jemal is a good DM that plays to the party not just throws thingsat them.

And npcs with similar abilities are usually my foes. While the rest of the party does some thing I'm off killing something they can't see.


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## Binder Fred (Nov 24, 2012)

The fact remains, D'Raven, that Raven is hiding/deceiving our senses using magic, a thing True Seeing is specifically designed to counter. You, to put it in your own words, are suggesting we "screw over" TS, making it possible for at least some magically hiding NPC villains ("magically" being the important word here) to sneak up on any of us any time they want, even when we have the specific spell designed to counter this ready and in place... Might I remind you of Jemal's MAD principle? Especially if, as you say, he specifically picks monsters based on party weaknesses? You are apparently pushing hard for us to a have a huge gap in our spotting defenses.

My own belief is that HiPS has the implied mention "hiding character are exactly as hidden as if they had successfully hidden in said shadow (see Darkvision and Bright Lights)". I see no reason, logically, why it shouldn't be that way, and nothing in the ability's description that hints otherwise, but as that would be a serious cut in its power level, that is an entirely different set of arguments, ones best discussed between you and Jemal. I maintain my views on the application of TS to this situation however, its description specifically saying, IMHO, that it doesn't work againt *mundane* hiding (as both hider and concealment are fully real and appearing as they really are), but does indeed work against *anything* that magically conceals, hides or attempts to visually deceive, having been designed to do just that.


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## Shayuri (Nov 24, 2012)

50% miss chance isn't bad. 

However, I'm not complaining about stealth just now. If Mei was fighting, she would have some options. I don't feel like I'd have no recourse, so I'm okay with it as it stands. 

And I can't make that dc even on a crit either, so I didn't roll. 

As for true sight, since hips has limits, I have no trouble with hips defeating it. Heaven knows nothing else does.

If we really wanted to find him, we could just wipe out the shadows in the room.


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## D'Raven (Nov 24, 2012)

At what point are the spells description fluff and what part rules text? The first line; see things as they truly are. Is that rules or fluff. If it is rules the the last paragraph is incorrect when it tells you what it doesn't do. In fact the first paragraph where it goes in depth on what it does do is in unneeded. The first line of a spell feat skil class ability is almost always fluff. It will then go in to what the actuall rules are. It's a fantasy world people do fantastic things. Yes the shadow dancers hide in plain sight is supernatural. How ever it does not fall under any of the categories that true seeing lets you see throu. It is not invisibility, it is not an illsusion, it is not polymorph shape changed or transmuting. It does not create darkness. It does not send you to the ethereal plane. It allows you to hide in plain view even if you have nothing to hide behind.


^^^ been there done that I hate daylight spell. And yes I personally hate true seeing I think it is overpowered. With superior invisibility gone hiding is the only way to get by true seeing. I believe SI sates true seeing does not pierce it but see invis does... Or it might be the other way around


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## kinem (Nov 24, 2012)

BTW, it must certainly be possible to physically grope about to find a hiding creature, just as with invisibility.


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## D'Raven (Nov 24, 2012)

Yes it is but i've been moving and tumbling around it would take the effert of every one to to it. Unless there was a moving line I just avoid to one looking for me like that.Just like invisibility. 

The power of stealth is in how you use it. Be it hide, invisibility or other. If you simple stand still and give them clues then you will be found easier then if you keep out of the way. And the spell glitter dust? I love that spell. In my top 3. It is so much fun.


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## Binder Fred (Nov 24, 2012)

D'Raven said:


> It is not invisibility, it is not an illsusion, it is not polymorph shape changed or transmuting. It does not create darkness. It does not send you to the ethereal plane. It allows you to hide in plain view even if you have nothing to hide behind.



I'm sorry but that's a fairly spurious argument. Even ignoring your ignoring of parts of the rules under the justification that it's "fluff" (very 4E of you, I must say), are you really suggesting that HiPS does what it does by being an ill-defined rule in an SRD compendium? I'm an IC-First guy myself: the rules are there to reflect the structure of the world. If it doesn't make sense IC, it either doesn't exist or its obviously incomplete/mis-interpreted. In this case though, there is an obvious way to make it make sense IC, without having to ignore or imagine a single line of the rules. Occam's razor and that sort of thing.

EDIT= ACK, probably shouldn't have mentionned the razor! Now VV is going to have to come in on the side of inherent complexity and the not-so-obvious solutions!


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## D'Raven (Nov 24, 2012)

Mostly i see hide In plain sight as a mechanic that shows you are really good at using the hide skill.

How is it ill defined? 

From the srd. "a shadow dancer can use the hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow. A shadow dancer can hide herself from view in the open with out anything to actually hide behind. She can not how ever hide in her own shadow." 

that seems defined to me. You can not hide when some one is watching you normally because they see where you go. This let's you do that.

It gives the prerequisite needed for the ability to function. 

It tells you what it does. Removes the need to physically have something to hide behind.
And it tells you the limitation of it. 

Stop thinking it cloaks you on shadows it doesn't mention anything about that.not even I the dungeon masters manual as fluff. If it did the ability wouldn't work out side of shadow. A shadowy blob is standing 10 feet from the shadow. At that point it would give a miss chance not the ability to hide. It is more like knowing how to blend in to the back ground. Yes it is far fetched when you look at it from the rules as they are. It is like trying to understand how the reserve feats work in the system. It changes the rules of the system where they apply to the one using it.


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## Binder Fred (Nov 24, 2012)

Then it would be an Extraordinary ability, wouldn't it? It's supernatural though, does not work in places where magic does not work, so by definition it must use magic to do... something that the rule-writer hasn't bothered to think about or note down, granted, but clearly.... *something*.

EDIT= That something being clearly magical *and* deceitful of the targets visual senses, falls entirely within the domain of TS, IMHO, whatever the un-described effect actually does. For example, chameleon-like "blending into the background" is either an illusory effect or a physical transformation, both of which fall under TS's umbrella.


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## Shayuri (Nov 24, 2012)

Must we fight over everything?

Let's just play for a bit and see if there's actually a problem. Then, if so, we can argue about how to fix it.


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## D'Raven (Nov 24, 2012)

You work with what you got. It doesn't duplicate any spell, it doesn't mention like or similar to. It does not say conceal or displace. The only term it uses is hide. And point out in TS where it says it works agains hiding? Would TS negate the magical bonus from items? You can argue that they are a magical means of concealment. Or do they magically increase your ability to hide? That is the difference that could be I'll defined if you want to look for one. Perhaps the ability confers knowledge to you or increases your natural abilities. That would be a mental boost and TS would not effect that. Of course this is only if you want to look at it as I'll defined


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## Jemal (Nov 24, 2012)

Damit, was gonna post like two hours ago to try and head this off, but works been too steady.
My official ruling ontrue sight is that it does not go through hips or magics that give hide bonuses.
It has a specific and rather long list of what it does and does not see through.  The fact that they use the descriptive term 'simply' hiding doesn't, by my reckoning, open that back up.  If hips were from a more recent source perhaps I'd consider it, but it existed as part of two (three?) classes at time of printing, and was a known commonly used effect from 3.0
The fact that several of the things they DO point out are less common than hips leads me to infer that they did not simply miss it.


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## D'Raven (Nov 24, 2012)

The three classes at first printing 3.5 are ranger, assassin and shadow dancer


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## kinem (Nov 24, 2012)

Well, this is one reason we have DMs. I disagree with Jemal's ruling, but for the purposes of this particular game, at least we have a ruling and can move on.

BTW, I have picked up the Voidsense (blindsense) invocation as I suspect it could come in handy in other situations. I admit that this situation prompted me to look at that option again. So Braham has been tracking Darrian the whole time; he just hasn't made a big deal of it.


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## Binder Fred (Nov 25, 2012)

I will just say that it's not just the "simply", it's the entire logic of both powers. God knows we've all seen broken, ill-thought out, ill-described powers before. Why we should suddenly assume this one has been fully thought out and detailed (to the point that we base judgments on it specifically *not* mentioning something when it's entirely lacking a description in *how* it functions to begin with) sort of escapes me... Ah well. Moving on.


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## D'Raven (Nov 25, 2012)

When you say this one you mean true seeing right? A single spell that defeats every method of stealth or evasion you can have aside from hiding?because yes it is broken..  This is just me being an douche But I just reread true seeing and no where does it say itsees through magic. It gives a list and no place does  it say all magical means. But moving on.


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## Binder Fred (Nov 25, 2012)

Added a Blindsight capability to Ur's goggles (through a Blindfold of True Darkness, MIC p.75). Got the cash by moving his DEX boosting item to its own Glove slot (thereby getting rid of its 1.5 item stacking cost increasing) and trading-in his spare adamantium gauntlet. The blindsight ability will not be able to function at the same time as the goggles TS ability, obviously, and has not been built-in IC yet, as it's his response to the scene that just happened.  Upgrade will occur the very next time he has access to a magical shop or equivalent.


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## Scott DeWar (Nov 25, 2012)

I feel the headband will tell Gerard what it knows of the planes so,  [MENTION=9026]Jemal[/MENTION], I give you dm caveat to the awakening of the headband. Perhaps the crossing out of the prime jolts it awake? Perhaps, the entity known as Kortuth the Wise?


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## D'Raven (Nov 25, 2012)

(content removed) I do not know why it is such a problem that you can not see me. I have a character that is based around stealth. To the point where I devoted quite a bit of personal resources to it. This will have absolutely no effect on the party out side of this single bit of role playing. The void sense is a very useful invocation to have so I don't care about it. But when some goes (content removed) didn't even bother to max out their perception abilities. Yes you can't see me. That's because you did not devote your character to perception like I did to stealth.

(content removed)

Yes I am taking this as a personal affront.

It is notsobad that a pc can see me.(content removed)

 The second part of it is that it sets percidents. If the pcs can use true seeing to see me so can the npcs. Which means a single spell would nullify my character.
And yes not being able to hide is a big set back for my character. Lowest ac, lowest attack(last I checked) damage drops by a very large amount.

It would be like my character realizing he was unable to counter spells after not spending class levels, features and specific gear to enhance it, so he buys an item of permanent anti magic.


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## Jemal (Nov 25, 2012)

Kinem - The only thing surprising about you taking Voidsense is that you didn't have it already.  I don't think I've ever played a warlock without it!


BF - You did read the rest of the blindfold's entry, right? it effectively negates the power of your goggles.. you can't use vision for *anything*, so while you're wearing the blindfold you wouldn't be able to : Use true seeing, Use Powersight, or see anything beyond 30 feet.  
You would not be able to COMBINE it with the goggles, because doing so would render them completely pointless.  The only thing you'd be able to do would be to swap items whenever you wanted to switch between 'blindsight 30' and 'true seeing/powersight/normal vision'


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## Jemal (Nov 25, 2012)

[MENTION=6699311]D'Raven[/MENTION] - Settle down and consider the possibility that your super stealthy character made people realize that If the DM uses a similar character/concept that the party is royally screwed.


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## Binder Fred (Nov 25, 2012)

Jemal said:


> BF - You did read the rest of the blindfold's entry, right? it effectively negates the power of your goggles.. you can't use vision for *anything*, so while you're wearing the blindfold you wouldn't be able to : Use true seeing, Use Powersight, or see anything beyond 30 feet.



Hence this bit in my last post:


Binder Fred said:


> The blindsight ability will not be able to function at the same time as the goggles TS ability, obviously.



I see it as a setting on the goggles: either see through the blue diamond lenses of TS or rotate lenses/flip down the opaque covers of the "blindfold" (hence the "Standard to activate" bit). i.e. the crunch is exactly the same as if he had the blindfold waiting on his forehead, but less clunky in terms of fluff... Acceptable? Or did I go overboatd with the "Standard"? Maybe a Move would be enough?

*D'Raven:* Why is it such a big deal for you if *PCs* can see Raven? Probably for the same reason it's a big deal for us: we are not allies *yet* and, even should we eventually become close friends, as I have pinted out before in the MAD portion of my TS argument (and Jemal has just underlined), what is to stop other, less friendly forces from doing the same? Ur's actions are perfectly in character for anybody that expects to live beyond tomorrow, much more so for a group of hardened survivalist that made it to 20th level. Please rest assured that I take the correctess/IC justifications of my roleplaying very seriously indeed. (And, yes, after the vase deal, pissing off Raven does play a small, very IC part in it ).


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## D'Raven (Nov 25, 2012)

I wouldn't feel upset about it if some one had made a super perceptive character that didn't match up


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## Shayuri (Nov 25, 2012)

Take it easy...we're not royally screwed if a hostile does a stealth on us.

This is true even if True Sight does not counter shadowdancer HIPS.

This is even true if no one has Voidsense...though the fact that someone does makes it very unlikely stealth will be effective against us as a party without unusual circumstances (Dark Stalker feat; insubstantial, etc).

As for the trust issues, I think if we can get over it OOC, it'll be easy enough to get over it IC. He never tried to hurt us, after all. Messed with us a bit, but is that really so bad? We can put up with some messing around given the circumstances.


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## D'Raven (Nov 25, 2012)

Why is it a big deal that you can't see a "PC"? Its not you seeing me. It's about about you attempting to circumvent my characters abilities. 

The MaD aspect was me not taking the feat darkstalker.

 Next it's not the in character actions. How about this you actually max your perception and I will drop my stealth. I'll drop it enough that a character with maxed perception has an even chance of seeing me.
So full ranks perception +5 spot and + 5 listen items. Two class features devoted to it... Let's say 1 and a half I use skill mastery for a few things other then stealth but that's why I took it. Then I will stop feeling like it is a personal attack.


Edit in character I'm waiting for Ur to go throu the door. His last post says walk towards.


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## Binder Fred (Nov 25, 2012)

Please don't be disingenious: with Raven's Staff of righteous might and quickened divine power, combined or not with un-magical/un-dispellable invisibility and a rogue's Sneak Attack powers, you have made a character that can handily outfight our melee dedicated characters. We should be the ones crying about niche infringement if anybody should. Drop the staff and we'll talk about dropping the blindfold (a deal that, to me, makes no sense at all, but hey).



			
				D'Raven said:
			
		

> Why is it a big deal that you can't see a "PC"? Its not you seeing me. It's about about you attempting to circumvent my characters abilities.



I admit I am not seeing the logic of your words. If it's perfectly IC for my character to do so, and he legally can, rule-wise, why should I, as a player, snuff that very resonnable IC  reaction? How is it circumventing to have my clearly overmatched PC take not-that-onerous steps to correct a gaping hole in his family's defenses?

On another tack, I have updated the RG with a compendium of our local Gods here. Let me knows if I missed anyting, folks!

EDIT = Assume he walked though the door, yes. I did describe him kneeling down in the throne room in the paragraph following... You might have meant "Tutek" instead?


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## Binder Fred (Nov 25, 2012)

Thanks for the description, Scott. Very visual (and not at all how I imagined Gerard ).

*EDIT= *Do we know how he lost his hair so young? Or is it the reverse and he "youthed" himself along the way?


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## D'Raven (Nov 25, 2012)

Sorry about that ment Tukek.


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## Scott DeWar (Nov 25, 2012)

On an aside: I am thinking of upgrading from a type 1 bag of holding with type b equipment access, to the type c access. what that means is that I would have to have a breakeven point of just shy of 20,000 gp to justify the difference in cost. I feel this is acceptable. perhaps I can make the change in character here at this bizarre bazaar.


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## Binder Fred (Nov 26, 2012)

Well, the advantage of the Type B seems to speed of access (no longer than one needs to pull out an item from a bag of holding, and less than that if it's a handy haversack, vs the apparent ask for item-drop money in-get item after merchant has located it mechanics of the Type C). So, if you have the time to use a Type C, why not just use Darrian's? It seems the only advantage of having two Type Cs in the party is if we get separated. Food for thought anyways...

P.S. did you see my question about the hair in my previous post?


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## Scott DeWar (Nov 26, 2012)

Binder Fred said:


> A. Thanks for the description, Scott. Very visual (and not at all how I imagined Gerard ).
> 
> B. Do we know how he lost his hair so young? Or is it the reverse and he "youthed" himself along the way?




A. just out of curiosity, how did you picture him?

B. he hunted undead- got aged by a ghost. er, or not. 3.x didn't carry that over, did they?


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## Scott DeWar (Nov 26, 2012)

advantage of second bag is as you said-if party gets separated. that is always a big thing. type c you have the equivalent to a debit card. put the money in the account and draw when needed.


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## kinem (Nov 26, 2012)

Braham also has a type C. From his point of view, the main advantage over a type B is that C plays well with his Rope Trick wand.

I was looking at the hide rules and want to clear something up:

In the first paragraph, it sounds like it's very easy (a mere -20 penalty) to hide while attacking. If so, anyone who faces a stealth character and doesn't have the appropriate senses (or if the DM makes the mistake of allowing/using the Dark Stalker feat) seems screwed, since even readying an action to attack whoever attacks you wouldn't tell you which square to attack.

However, this seems contradicted by the section on sniping, which suggests that the sniper would not be hidden while attacking and must then re-hide. Or would the sniper make 2 hide checks: One to stay hidden, and one to re-hide if spotted? What is he makes the first but fails the second?

I think HiPS is much like _shapechange_: Slapped together without any time or thought on the part of WotC employees trying to rush to print, and causing problems ever since. Improved invisibility is a lot less powerful, requiring a mere DC 20 spot check and countered by common spells.

I certainly think it would be utterly implausible if Ur did not take steps to defend himself from such threats.

I would never create a 20th level D&D character who can't fly. Even a pure melee fighter needs that ability (from a magic item) at this level. Similarly, if a stealth character can hide while attacking, then having a counter to it is a necessity, not an option.


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## D'Raven (Nov 26, 2012)

When you get attacked by someone you can not see you know what  square they attacked from.
Also most character that hide don't after they attack. Most people run it like invisibility in that sense. When you give some one that big of a clue they figure it out. The -20 would be to remain hidden.
It is a dc 20 spot to detect the presence of invisible creatures not its location.

As for the various checks here is how it goes. With my rapid blitz/ bounding asult  i spring attack 3 times.
So move, hide, attack, not hidden, move, hide, attack, not hidden, move, hide, attack, not hidden, move, hide.
That's 4 hide checks. And that's the reason I took skill mastery.

Edited description.


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## Binder Fred (Nov 28, 2012)

*OOC:*


And we're back online!








Scott DeWar said:


> A. just out of curiosity, how did you picture him?



Dashing swashbuckler archetype: serious face, clean shaven and wavy-haired (maybe even a Fabio cut? ).



Scott DeWar said:


> B. he hunted undead- got aged by a ghost. er, or not. 3.x didn't carry that over, did they?



Doesn't have to be your run-of-the-mill ghost that did it to him either, does it?  Might be a special ghost/ghost of a loved one, sure, or what if he saw just a *glimpse* of the true nature of that undead king of giants before we squashed that summoning? Oh, Oh, then there's the whole Underworld adventure (where one of the demi-gods of Kaainsbridge sent us after Tutek's offense). Would fit perfectly to come back from *there* with a few white hairs, frankly. Underlines nicely the trials we had to go through (no, I am NOT making that pun... Must resist... Must... Keep... Dignity... <arhg!>).


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## Binder Fred (Nov 28, 2012)

*Re Hiding,* I actually don't think multiple successive Hides work, but I have been wrong before. HiPS specifically removes the requirement for cover when hiding, certainly. It doesn't, to my mind, remove all the *other* requirements of begining a Hide (though Jemal has ruled for "absence is proof of consent" before, so who knows): must not be observed, even casually, or must be at least 10' away from an observer if successfully hidden before an attack (as described in Snipping).

Also consider that hiding after an attack (Snipping) requires spending a Move action (see the Action paragraph at the end of the Hide skill description) and that, contrarely to a simple use of the Hide skill, HiPS, being a Supernatural ability, actually requires a Standard action to activate. 

So at the very least a hiding character needs a Move to re-hide after an attack, and at worse, if Jemal rules for the need to re-hide, he will need to spend a Standard and be at least 10' away from hostile observers.

I'm sorry if you see this as a personnal attack again, D'Raven, but I'm only reading the rules as written (and hoping they make sense when I'm finished reading).


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## kinem (Nov 28, 2012)

Hide in Plain Sight (Su)



> A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.




Hide



> It’s practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging.
> 
> Sniping: If you’ve already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again. You take a -20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot.
> 
> Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Hide check as part of movement, so it doesn’t take a separate action. However, hiding immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.






> Using a supernatural ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise.




Here's the way I see it:

HiPS explicitly says you can hide while being observed, so there's no question about that. Binder Fred, I think you just overlooked that part.

Reading the hide skill again, it looks like the part about hiding while attacking refers to initiating a hide, not to maintaining it. So (though this is not made explicit) you would no longer be hidden just after you attack.

My interpretation is that D'Raven's plan would work, BUT he would take the -20 penalty for hiding during/after an attack. Which gives him a check of 39, still high enough to hide from most foes most of the time. They could ready an action to attack him when he attacks, though.

As for the standard action, I don't think it applies in this case since hiding already has its own rules for actions. But that's up to Jemal.


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## D'Raven (Nov 28, 2012)

The sniping rules are for sniping. When you go below that to the actions it states that there is usually no action it is usually done as part of movement ( except for sniping see above). Not a move action. Not a movement. Which implies when ever you move you may make a hide check. How spring attack works is you may move attack then move.

With the extra feats I add two attacks to that. I can move attack 3 times;
move, attack once, move, attack twice move, 
Move attack, move attack, move attack, move

Or  any amount up to that.

Image multiple checks because after each attack I am no longer hiding.


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## Binder Fred (Nov 28, 2012)

kinem said:


> HiPS explicitly says you can hide while being observed.



Ack, you're right. That's what I get for going from memory. (Or was I just considering that first sentence "fluff"? ). My bad.



kinem said:


> As for the standard action, I don't think it applies in this case since hiding already has its own rules for actions. But that's up to Jemal.



"Using a supernatural ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise." Nowhere in the HiPS description is it noted otherwise. So, to my mind, Hiding being a cart uses the Hide rules for actions. Using a supernatural ability to hide in the shadow of the cart behind you? That obviously requires the use of the supernatural abilities rule for actions.

None of which invalidates the need to spend at least a Move to re-hide after an attack... Unless somebody wants to argue that re-hiding after a sword stroke at 5' is easier than after a bow-shot at 10' plus? Frankly, after reading the Hide skill description and seeing the detail it goes into for the ranged attack portion and the nothing it says about the much more difficult hiding after a melee attack, I have doubts the designers even thought the second was possible, but that's neither here nor there.

EDIT= Which I wrote before seeing D'Raven's post. D'Raven *is* apparently arguing that hiding after a point blank sword stroke is easier than from concealement far away. <sigh> If I can state my personnal opinion, there should be a point where word by word interpretation of the rule gives way to common sense. I think we have reached that point.


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## D'Raven (Nov 28, 2012)

Okay

Hips does not have a duration. I activated it when I took my level in shadow dancer 12 years ago. And I do move. 4 times. Each time I make a new hide check.


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## kinem (Nov 28, 2012)

Binder Fred said:


> Frankly, after reading the Hide skill description and seeing the detail it goes into for the ranged attack portion and the nothing it says about the much more difficult hiding after a melee attack, I have doubts the designers even thought the second was possible, but that's neither here nor there.




The only way to understand the rules is to realize that they were written by several authors and added to haphazardly and in a rush to print. It's very likely that the text of the hide skill was already finalized long before someone had the idea "Hey, wouldn't it be neat to stick in an ability based on hiding better somehow? How about hiding in plain sight? Sounds cool. Rules? Yeah, I'll read the hide skill ... keywords: observers ... something to hide behind ... done! OK, print it!"


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## Binder Fred (Nov 28, 2012)

*Kinem:* Not sure if that got through, but I was specifically talking about the use of the barebone Hide skill: I don't think it was intended to allow for hide after a melee attack (personal opinion there, as we have that general "-20" sentence in the first paragraph that seems to allow for it). At the very least, it shouldn't be easier than the rules intended to simulate RL realistic sniping from a distance (that's the common sense portion of me talking). 

*D'Raven:* To state the obvious: each time you use HiPS, you activate HiPS. Please see the last two sentences of my edit in the post above. This concludes all I have to say on the subject (as it seems I'm begining to repeat myself ). Rest isn't up to me.


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## D'Raven (Nov 28, 2012)

Sorry double post


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## D'Raven (Nov 28, 2012)

Common sense states that mumbling some words no one understands does not cause a fireball to appear. The wording on hips is it allows you to hide not that it hides you. If you look throu the monster manual at the lich it's Dr is (su) and it does not state always on or any other action. So does that mean the lich uses dr as a standard action that is only active during the action only?

At this point I am simply trying to show you how it's working. Weither it actually does or does not is up to the developers. The DM sees it working one way. That's the way it is working for this game as ruled as the DM. I have not seen a single FAQ on this. I have seen many discussions on the subject mostly people arguing common sense vs ... Some one else's common sense. Until a developer says " this is how it is" it is only personal opinion vs personal opinion.


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## Jemal (Nov 28, 2012)

After re-reading all the relevant rules, here's how I'm ruling it : 

HIPS is supposed to be a passive effect that alters how you hide, so I'll say it requires the same action as hiding.

Hiding while attacking vs sniping is a little more difficult.
I believe the sniping rule is MEANT to reflect not being seen at all (immediately rehide), As far as I see it, if you snipe they DONT see you, with the melee versions they see you in between hide checks, so there is a purpose to the sniping being more time consuming.

Hiding while attacking.. I read it as meaning "if you attack, run, or charge during the same turn in which you hide, you take a -20 to hide checks". 
Normally, without the ability to move between attacks, this would not be an issue, as you need to hide as part of movement, it's because of the combination that it seems so powerful.

With that in mind, I'm also going to say that the Movement speed penalty would be CUMULATIVE with the -20 for attacking, so if you were going greater than half speed AND attacking, you would have a -25 to your check.



*Also on a side note, I've lost my PHB and am using the SRD - it doesn't have a penalty given for moving at full speed.. it says -5 for over half but less than normal, -20 for charging/running.. nothing for 'normal speed'... 
wtf?  Is this a missing chart that's in the phb or just another omission?  I was always under the assumption that full speed was -10, now I'm not sure if I actually read that somewhere or just made it as a house rule..


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## Binder Fred (Nov 28, 2012)

Jemal said:


> Hiding while attacking vs sniping is a little more difficult.
> I believe the sniping rule is MEANT to reflect not being seen at all (immediately rehide), As far as I see it, if you snipe they DONT see you, with the melee versions they see you in between hide checks, so there is a purpose to the sniping being more time consuming.



Alright, let me try to wrap my head around that. We are talking about the barebone Hide skill, no magic involved. I am a rogue, Hiding in shadows. My victim is aware but doesn't now where I am exactly (no Surprise to simplify things). I jump out, stab her, and then I can immediately re-hide at -20 as a free action? Or do I actually need to move after the attack to gain the free hide (i.e. I need Springing Attack)? In which case, what is the mechanichal dis-advantage of being seen when actually doing the attack? The attacker has moved since then, so the defender still has no idea where he is, only where he was when he attacked... And, now that I think about it, if the attacker was seen, even for a second, he *cannot* re-hide as he violates the "cannot be observed, even casually" condition. So the basic hide rules, by their own logic, seem to forbid mundane hiding after a melee attack *at all*, if we go with the "seen between hide checks" interpretation. To state that the Snipping Move requirement was intended to compensate for remaining wholly unseen vs the melee version is therefore without basis : mundane hiding *requires* that you remain wholly unseen to continue hiding.

Now this tells us little about the HiPS (absence of) mechanics, granted. The argument there remains wholly one of common sense: a man re-hiding after a very physical attack should not be able to do so faster than a man re-hiding after a much more discreete move from range (releasing an arrow) if the powers description itself says nothing about it. Also note that by the current interpretation's logic, a Snipping character should have the option of NOT spending a Move to re-hide "unseen" and instead choose to move, hide, shoot, re-hide melee style, for example. Something not at all mentionned in the Snipping description.


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## D'Raven (Nov 28, 2012)

You are putting way to much logic in to this. This is a fantasy world and we are fairly fantciful characters. Or are you telling me that you are a psionic dwarf that can walk on walls and change his size in real life. At this point you are simply arguing for the sake of it. There has been a ruleing by the DM, it is a bit harsher on me then I actually expected with the penalties and what causes them. A character our level should need a roll of about 6 to see me if they choose to try to have a perception score. Not base their character on it, but simple devote skill ranks and maybe a item. Any "monster" would be unable to miss me because of their massive amount of HD. Can have skills higher then ours and not much else to spend them on exempt perception and stealth.. I am going to play my character within the rules as given and defined in this game. But personally i am done with this. If you care to continue with this argument then my suggestion is to search out one of the many forums that are discussing this.


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## Jemal (Nov 28, 2012)

I think I see your issue BF, allow me to explain :  The -20 to attack and hide  does NOT take away ANY of the requirements, it's just a -20 penalty if you make a hide check in the same round as you have made an attack.  (At least, by the way I've ruled it in my previous post)
You still need to move to rehide, you still have to roll another hide check (Unless you have skill mastery), it still would require concealment and not being observed to hide (say ducking behind an obstacle to disappear after stabbing someone in the gut.), and it still takes (further) penalties if you move more than half your speed.
The opponent could still take attacks of opportunity if you didn't have some way of preventing them, and make readied actions.  He would know where you attacked from and which way you started heading before you hid again.

Compare to Sniping in which case the target knows... which general direction he was hit from.

I think your major problem comes from seeing all the feats, class abilities, and magic that D'raven has applied - Skill mastery, multiple attacks on a spring attack, HIPS, massive hide check - And seeing that as what the skill does when in fact it's not -  much of his 20th lvl character is based around this concept of an anime-ish disappearing/reappearing fighter who seems to be attacking from all sides and fading into nothingness.
I fail to see how that's so much harder to believe than someone spending the same amount of time and effort to learn how to summon demons and blow up cities.


as far as the ranged character, yes they could choose to either shoot, then move and rehide (If they aren't being observed and do have concealment), or spend the move action to snipe and remain hidden and unseen so the target doesn't even know where they shot him from to begin with.  
The sniping description doesn't preclude the possibility of doing it, it just offers an alternative for Sniping - firing without being seen.  I don't see how it being specific to ranged means it's the ONLY thing ranged can do.

Personally the only time I'd ever use the first option is if I had HIPS to overcome the 'observed/concealment' issue.  And even then only if you've got a method of shooting multiple times while moving.  Otherwise it's worse than them not seeing you at all and has the same penalty.


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## Jemal (Nov 28, 2012)

D'Raven, I understand you're taking this personally(though I doubt it was intended to be), but even so, I'll have to ask you to be a bit less hostile.  I don't see why we cant remain civil about this.


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## kinem (Nov 28, 2012)

Jemal, I don't see anything in the skill description that supports the idea that sniping allows you to remain hidden instead of having to hide again. But if it's the way you rule it, so be it.

My question is about improved invisibility, since my PC has that ability and will use it when he can. It provides concealment, so I could hide, and can snipe. My stealth bonus is low but invisibility provides a significant bonus.

However, the given bonus applies to Hide. Does the full bonus apply - which it does in the Pathfinder version of the stealth skill - or just half the given bonus as your house rules would suggest?

BTW, one reason that has been preventing people from buying items to boost perception checks, I think, is the house rule that only half the Spot bonus counts. The Pathfinder equivalent items give the full bonus to Perception. Also, even in the MIC, there are NO items which give a bonus to _just_ Listen; all relevant items either give a bonus just to Spot, or give a bonus that applies both to Spot and Listen. For that reason, it's not possible to boost Perception with the house rules by an amount equal to what you can do with a Spot bonus without the house rules even by paying double.


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## Jemal (Nov 29, 2012)

hmm, that's actually a good point, I hadn't considered that there aren't really any listen items..

If anybody wants a Perception item, I'll allow them at +5 or +10's, given the same costs an equivalent stealth item would cost.

As for Improved Invis, it doesn't do anything to mask your sound, so it would only give the half bonus per the way I'm runnin stealth/perception, b/c they're not just using their eyes to detect you, but their ears as well.
And keep in mind that succeeding at a perception check to notice an invisible opponent doesn't tell you exactly where they are, just that they're 'around'.  They would have to beat your check by 20 or more to pinpoint your location - and you would STILL have full concealment even then.  So at half bonus, imp. invis gives you a +20, so even if you had a zero hide base, an avg roll(10) would give you a 30 stealth check, and they'd have to make a 50 perception check to pinpoint what square you're in. (That's much higher than they need to SEE D'raven when he's combating-hiding)
And keep in mind, also, that it's pretty much unnecessary to actually make a stealth check when invisible unless you are trying to be completely undetected.  Even if you don't hide, they still wouldn't know exactly where you are or be able to target you.
Also none of that applies if they can see invisible.


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## kinem (Nov 29, 2012)

Just to make sure everything is clear: How does Perception vs Stealth interact with magical silence?


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## Binder Fred (Nov 29, 2012)

*Jemal:* Well, that makes more sense. So HiPS's overpowered aspect rests mostly in the "takes no action to use" house-rule (that ruling directly overwrites RAW for Supernatural ability use, so it *is* a house-rule, let's not kid ourselves there). It's not a ruling I agree with (to my mind HiPS, as an 8th level ability, is powerful enough without giving it "Greater Invisibility at will, requires a skill roll" status (given that Wizards have just begun to be able to cast Greater Invisibility one level previous)), but one I can live with.

*D'Raven:* We are talking rule-logic, rule-balance and the ability of the rules as written to appropriatly simulate RL events such as hiding. It's nice if IC magic has it's own internal set of logical rules and IC justifications as well, sure, but that's not what we've been discussing here. (Good thing too as D&D magic is stricty a "build your own d**n internal logic!" system ).


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## Scott DeWar (Nov 29, 2012)

[smart alec]of course there is no logic in magic, its MAGIC! [/smart alec]


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## Binder Fred (Nov 29, 2012)

_"Any suffifiently advanced science is indistinguishable from magic."_ Shouldn't that imply that any sufficiently advanced magic is based on science?


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## Scott DeWar (Nov 29, 2012)

grrrr! curse you and your perfectly reasonable logic!!!


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## Jemal (Nov 29, 2012)

> "Any sufficiently advanced science is indistinguishable from magic." Shouldn't that imply that any sufficiently advanced magic is based on science?



No, because it says that advanced science is INDISTINGUISHABLE from magic, not IS magic.  Thus advanced science could duplicate seemingly magical effects, but that doesn't make it Magic.  the Magic could be achieving those same goals in entirely different, highly illogical, ways.



> So HiPS's overpowered aspect rests mostly in the "takes no action to use" house-rule (that ruling directly overwrites RAW for Supernatural ability use, so it *is* a house-rule, let's not kid ourselves there). It's not a ruling I agree with (to my mind HiPS, as an 8th level ability, is powerful enough without giving it "Greater Invisibility at will, requires a skill roll" status (given that Wizards have just begun to be able to cast Greater Invisibility one level previous)), but one I can live with.



I wholeheartedly disagree with your belief that it's a house rule.  Just because someone interprets something differently than you does not make their interpretation the 'house rule' and yours 'obviously correct'.  For example, that's exactly the way I feel about what you are saying, but I'm not going to just say "no your wrong I'm right".  I AM going to say that regardless of how you feel, as the DM I'm going to be running it the way I feel is the correct, intended, and most balanced way.
Also I've already pointed out to Kinem's questions about Invisibility the numerous advantages that spell gives over hiding.

Also what do you mean by 'HIPS is an 8th lvl ability'?


 [MENTION=24234]kinem[/MENTION] - Damn you stop mentioning things I hadn't thought of!  I'll figure something out.


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## Shayuri (Nov 29, 2012)

Using HIPS has never been a standard action.

In fact, I remember seeing this specific question addressed before. I'll see if I can't dig it up.

Anyway, sounds like we're finally getting through this rough patch, and that's a relief. A huge, huge relief.

Hmm...not sure if this is what I was thinking, but in the current version of the v3.5 FAQ on the WotC website on page 45 there is a question to which the answer includes this text:

_A character with the hide in plain sight class feature
(described on page 48 in the PH) can make a Hide check even
if she’s being observed. This doesn’t require any extra action to
accomplish (unlike the sniping maneuver). The character could
attack a foe, then move to a place with sufficient cover or
concealment to allow a Hide check, making the Hide check as
part of movement._

It's not a direct answer to the question at hand, but the implication seems pretty clear...


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## D'Raven (Nov 30, 2012)

I'm done running the show. Jemal it's all yours now that's all the info you gave me. And that better not be wade as in ...well wade. I don't think darrian could handle the stress.

And the other quote is "Any suffifiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from science." not based on.


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## Jemal (Nov 30, 2012)

Thank you for handling the primary exposition, D'raven, I've been a bit busy lately.  I was hoping it would go a bit smoother, but everything seems to be going OK for now.


On another note, here's a few examples of abilities like HIPS that are Supernatural but don't state a specific action, and thus by RAW, must therefore be Standard Actions.
Monk's Ki strike/Arcane Archer's Enhance Arrow - Does this mean that if they use this ability they can only make a single, standard action attack?

Monk's Quivering Palm/Paladin's Smite Evil - These ones are grantedly arguable, but I've seen articles from WOTC talking about using both of these as part of a full attack.  I think I've seen a feat that REQUIRES Quivering palm as a full attack, and I know I've seen references to Charging while Smiting... things that would be entirely impossible were these Standard Actions.

And that's ignoring most of the 'passive' Supernatural effects like Divine Grace, Diamond Body, Aura of Courage, Darkvision..

Far as I see it, There are two scenarios: 
A) They didn't consider the 'supernatural=standard' thing when making HIPS, since hide already has an action.
B) They thought "Hey lets make this require a standard action, but instead of pointing out that unlike a normal hide check, this requires a standard action - we make it supernatural and they'll all just understand, right?"

Personally, I think scenario A is the most likely. 



ALL : I know the characters are all gung-ho to do this NOW, but OOC we need to make sure that everybody's ready to go before we continue onto the Statue, so until then we'll be 'waiting' IC.  If you have questions ask them, but William and Darrian have told you pretty much everything they know about the Power.  


I'd like to get an update on characters.  
A) Who thinks they're done, but hasn't received an ok from me since their most recent character update, and what have you changed?
B) Who needs to do work still, and what needs to be changed?
C) Who's waiting on something I've skipped over answering?


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## Voda Vosa (Nov 30, 2012)

Still need to add the equipment Wrath suggested, I'm not having enough time to do it just yet.


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## D'Raven (Nov 30, 2012)

I need to startup William and my higher level followers but they will never see combat so it's mostly just house keeping.


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## Scott DeWar (Nov 30, 2012)

I believe I needed a final ok on the power item


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## Binder Fred (Nov 30, 2012)

Waiting on an OK re adding the Blindfold power to Ur's goggles (and wether "turning it on" would be a Standard or a Move equivalent)?


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## Jemal (Nov 30, 2012)

VV - Whenever's fine.  We probly won't start the 'full game' till after the holidays.

d'Raven - Don't worry too much about the followers, just stat william 'in case'.

Scott - could you repost what your current build of the headband is so I can make a final decision?

BF - It's OK tentatively as a standard action to change between the two 'modes'.  Basically a 'pull down' lens that covers the goggles, I'm thinking.  Actually swapping out two different items would be more time consuming, but if you're paying the 1.5X extra cost to stack I'll give it some leeway.
May change depending on how it works out in game.


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## Scott DeWar (Dec 1, 2012)

*work in progress . . . . .*

work in progress . . . . .

[sblock=base info]
Intelligent Items are allowed (In fact, I encourage at least one in the party), but with the following caveats:
Any intelligent item will have: 18 in one mental stat, 16 in another, 14 in the third; 3 lesser powers, 1 or 2 greater powers; 120 ft. darkvision, blindsense, and hearing, Speech, Telepathy with wielder; AND a special purpose. Base price of +10,000GP + powers. You will NOT have to pay the special power cost (But see below).
Also, if it's your weapon, it can be a special material (Adamantine, Cold iron, etc) as a free upgrade.

Player picks the Lesser/Greater powers and stat distribution. (Alignment will be same as Character)
DM picks the personality, Languages, and special purpose/power UNLESS the character made the item with the appropriate Item Creation Feat. (Don't worry I wont screw you over.). We'll decide between us who roleplays the item.
[/sblock]

[sblock=wish list]
* Intelligent item: headband of  mental superiority [+6 to int, wis, cha]
 * Mental Ability Scores: 
 * * Int: 18
 * * Wis: 14
 * * Cha: 16	
 * Communication: 
 * * Speech: Languages to be determined by DM Jamal [common +4 more]
 * * telepathy: to be run by DM Jamal
 * Capabilities:  Four lesser powers and three greater powers 
 * Senses: 120 ft. darkvision, blindsense, and hearing
 * Base Price Modifier: 
 * * item stats: +15,000 gp
 * * lessor powers: +20,000 gp
 * * greater powers: + 30,000 gp

Lesser powers:
 * 10 ranks in  knowledge planes 
 * 10 ranks in  knowledge arcane 
* 10 ranks in spot (1)
 * 10 ranks in listen (1)
(1): both combined to give 10 ranks in  perception  



Greater power:
* Item can use  dismissal  on a foe 1/day
 * Item can use  Arcane Eye  1/day
 * Item has continuous  Detect Scrying  effect  

Special purpose
 * to be determined by DM Jamal

Special purpose power
 * to be determined by DM Jamal


this might be all that is known [to give dm caveat] to enact, gems must be 
inserted in blank spots to equal to what is needed to activate power

This headband was found as part of what was left of the bones and equipment 
of the defeated Archlich Iredex. It seemed to call to Gerard while the dust of the 
battle was still settling. It or rather SHE revealed some of her knowledge to him.

****was wanting the 15,000 gp item level for the 4 lessor powers as I have listed**** 
[/sblock]


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## Jemal (Dec 1, 2012)

K,we've been doing intelligent items differently than the book, I've posted the rules on the first page, and again more recently.  Please check them and make any required changes.


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## kinem (Dec 1, 2012)

I think Braham is done. I swapped out Extra Invocation (eldritch chain) for Sudden Empower (1/day). I'm not sure which is better but I still have Eldritch Doom, which also can affect multiple foes. If he ever obtains enough cash he could get rods of eldritch power for more BS and EE options.

edit: Also changed a few magic items, mainly swapping out the ring of freedom of movement for a ring of instant escape (CMage) and spell-battle (MIC).


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## Scott DeWar (Dec 2, 2012)

I have a bit of a wish list, please check the s.block


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## Jemal (Dec 8, 2012)

Alright, ENWorld's back up, lets do a Roll Call to see if anybody hasn't found their way back yet.


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## Binder Fred (Dec 8, 2012)

Ur present and accounted for!

*EDIT= *Presently waiting for an answer from William on the "Cracks in the Prison Wall" comment.


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## kinem (Dec 8, 2012)

I am back ...


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## Scott DeWar (Dec 8, 2012)

I am back . . . . .
front, left side, right side, top and bottom.


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## Shayuri (Dec 9, 2012)

Here


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## D'Raven (Dec 9, 2012)

I never left. Has here hiding in the shadows the whole time.... It was dark and cold and there was no food.....


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## Jemal (Dec 11, 2012)

OK, just missing VV.  

Scott - I've read the wishlist, it's alright.  I'll give him CL 15.  Personality wise you wanted it to be a part of Iridex's humanity, infused with Power, right?
I'll have it awaken during your encounter with the statue.


On that note, How is everybody doing? ready to proceed?


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## Voda Vosa (Dec 11, 2012)

Back!


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## kinem (Dec 11, 2012)

More than ready.


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## Binder Fred (Dec 12, 2012)

Ready. 

There was this bit from Scott that remains unanswered IC:



> Gerard looks contemplative for a few seconds then says, "So, this statue is actually a construct, made by the titans to hold information? But holds a clue regarding the item of discussion amongst a vast store of knowledge? Have you considered cataloging the not so volatile information? Perhaps the historical knowledge? Maybe even creating a new one to transfer the remaining knowledge?"


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## Scott DeWar (Dec 12, 2012)

ready! now i need to recover the character sheet.


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## Jemal (Dec 16, 2012)

Posting this to all my games : Since the ENWorld Dice roller is indefinitely inoperable, there are two ways we can proceed re: Dice rolling.
*This is rather important for this game in particular, we will need to figure it out before the Wade Test begins.*

A: DM Rolls everything and posts results
B: Use an online roller such as Invisible Castle.
Personally, I'd rather go with option A.  I've had bad experiences with non-integrated dice rollers before.  Not that I Distrust any of you guys, but I am paranoid. 
I understand a lot of people (Myself included) prefer rolling the dice themselves.. It's more entertaining seeing that nat 20 and rolling yourself helps to get more involved in the game, but it does slow PBP down in a lot of cases, and is open to exploits/cheating (again, not that I think any of you personally would do that! Just in general).
If the majority would rather use the castle (Or another free option) though, then we'll go with that, and I'll trust you guys.


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## Shayuri (Dec 16, 2012)

I'm fine either way, including with the GM rolling. That option would actually make my life a lot easier, since I post from work fairly often, and they use an ancient browser that doesn't always play nice with Invisible Castle.


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## D'Raven (Dec 16, 2012)

I'm good with you rolling, for me it'll be mostly attacks and saves, a lot of my skills I would be using i have mastered


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## kinem (Dec 16, 2012)

I'm OK either way.


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## Binder Fred (Dec 16, 2012)

Well, I prefer to roll my own die, not so much for the feel of it (though there is that), but to integrate reactions to failure/success in the post right then and there rather than (possibly days) later. 

That said, it's not a deal breaker for me.


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## Scott DeWar (Dec 16, 2012)

as has been said, either way is good. I know you won't cheat [i am not paranoid] but as Binder Fred says, i like to post in character responses at the time of the  roll.


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## Binder Fred (Dec 17, 2012)

Scott DeWar said:


> the answer wade seeks is which one is true. mentioning one is false is counted as 'discussion amongst ourselves, imho



Read his paragraph again, Scott: "Two are true. Guess which one is false, and you can ask me any question which can be answered with a single word."


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## Jemal (Dec 17, 2012)

BF is correct: 
Wade wants you to guess which of the three statements is FALSE. (Two are true, one is False).  Sorry if that wasn't clearer.

And I also like integrating rolls, but it shouldn't be too much trouble to adapt.  Basically just leave your posts a bit open ended, as you would if you're not sure what the AC/DC (Heh.. pun unintended) is.

How's this : We'll try with me rolling for the Wade test, and after that you guys can decide if you want to continue that way or switch to an online roller (If ENWorld's isn't back up, which I hope it will be - though with the amount of recoding they have I don't think it's a priority.


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## Scott DeWar (Dec 17, 2012)

yeah, they are busting their a$$e$ getting done what they are.


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## kinem (Dec 18, 2012)

Jemal, I just became aware of the heartseeking amulet (MIC p. 110; 3/day, melee attack as touch attack; swift action to activate, 3k gp). Would you allow this amulet property?


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## Jemal (Dec 18, 2012)

as stated before, i dislike the rampant "x times per day gain a massive bonus for very little cost" items from MIC.  This item falls into the same category as gloves of true strike for me.


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## kinem (Dec 18, 2012)

OK, no problem. The item does seem too good for the price.


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## Jemal (Jan 12, 2013)

A reminder, for the time being please just post your action and relevant dice/modifiers and I'll be doing the rolling.
Also, please post specific actions.  I'm not sure what spell Braham just cast, only that it is a 'ray of acid'.  Is that the spell name?
And Scott, Gerard can't fight defensively or take a defensive action if you've already used all your actions for the round.


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## Scott DeWar (Jan 12, 2013)

So still round one, sorry. over zealous to get into action after the Hack.


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## kinem (Jan 13, 2013)

Vitriolic blast by Braham. Really, Jemal, it hasn't been that long since you played with warlocks


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## Jemal (Jan 15, 2013)

lol got u mixed up, thought you were the mage there for a minute.


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## Scott DeWar (Jan 15, 2013)

still confused by the hack i guess?


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## Binder Fred (Jan 15, 2013)

I think everybody's all posted up, right?


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## D'Raven (Jan 16, 2013)

There's something pretty big happening to jemal in rl right now I'll leave the details to him but things might be slow right now


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## Scott DeWar (Jan 16, 2013)

Thanks for the heads up here!


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## Jemal (Jan 16, 2013)

Yeah the lady's been having contractions for the last couple days, but the labour's taking a while.  We're out of the hospital on a pass until stuff starts happening.


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## Scott DeWar (Jan 16, 2013)

Oh wow!!!!

Mega congrats!!


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## Binder Fred (Jan 16, 2013)

Yes, congratulations to you and the lady Jemal!


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## kinem (Jan 17, 2013)

Congrats Jemal & family!


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## Binder Fred (Feb 1, 2013)

Calling  [MENTION=6699311]D'Raven[/MENTION],  [MENTION=4936]Shayuri[/MENTION] and  [MENTION=51271]Voda Vosa[/MENTION] to the IC thread. You guys are up! (Kinem posted his actions for round 2 here.)


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## Shayuri (Feb 1, 2013)

Oops, thanks! 

Any suggestions for Mei Ying? Inside the force dome, all she can do is buff the boomball or cast spells on herself or her companion in crime.

She could heal him, perhaps...give him more stameena for charging yon ball. Hm.


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## Jemal (Feb 1, 2013)

TY BF, hadn't counted that post of Kinem's b/c it was before my update.


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## Binder Fred (Feb 2, 2013)

Shayuri said:


> Any suggestions for Mei Ying? Inside the force dome, all she can do is buff the boomball or cast spells on herself or her companion in crime.



Well, depending on Jemal's interpretation, if Gerard's spell works she could theoretically do the same and use anything that isn't actually described as crossing the dome -- such as Flame Strike (everybody _presently_ visible is at least 15' away from Wade), TK, Resilient Sphere, Analyze Dweomer, etc, etc... What did she end up choosing for her final 8th level spell by the way (not updated on the RG)? Anything summon-y?


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## Shayuri (Feb 2, 2013)

No, it's that variation on Pmorph Any Object that Jemal and I worked out.

And a Wall of Force blocks line of effect, even if not line of sight. She could teleport out, but that would defeat the purpose of having created it...to shield us while we charge the blaster bomb.

The force sword is stuck in there too.

...

Wow, yeah, this RG version is old. I'll update that.


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## Scott DeWar (Feb 2, 2013)

So Mord's sword fails to work.


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## Jemal (Feb 2, 2013)

I'll have to look it up but I believe mords sword can be summoned within line of sight, not line of effect.  When you're dealing with force walls it's a very important distinction.  Line of Sight effects can pass through, line of effect cant.  I used to play an epic level force mage for a couple years, wish I still had my spell list lol.


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## Binder Fred (Feb 10, 2013)

D'Raven said:


> I changed my target [since] I can't target the elemental [with Benign Transposition]



Would you consider allowing it just this once,  [MENTION=9026]Jemal[/MENTION]? Just for the awesome coolness of it?


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## Shayuri (Feb 10, 2013)

But...it's not cool. The elemental can't fit in there. Even if it can, it can't fight. And even if it could fit, and could fight, Wade can easily just leave...leaving it trapped in there. We have to nullify that teleportation of his before we can really use this wall of force to trap him, whether we trap him inside or out.

And Mei's got Wade in a bind right now. It can fight her...but if it does, Mei will Dimension Anchor his butt next turn. If it leaves, then it gets the old one-two from the giant elemental meatshield...AND Mei can pop out and D-anchor him while he's outside...then pop Ger back in.

Plus, I still don't think you can target Mei with Transposition while she's behind a wall of force. I should probably read the spell desc before I insist on that too hard though. 

Anyway...assuming it's ruled legal, you can try. Mei will refuse the spell though, if she has an option to.


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## Binder Fred (Feb 11, 2013)

Shayuri said:


> Anyway...assuming it's ruled legal, you can try. Mei will refuse the spell though, if she has an option to.



We could argue the other points (even if it can't move so long as *Wade* can't move either, we don't know (IC) that Wade can teleport more than once or say, when Pinned under/by a Huge elemental, Force Wall is Dispelable at will even if he can, and yes, I *still* think a Huge elemental squeezed into a force fishbowl is both funny  AND cool ), but you've got the master argument right there, Shayuri. I bow in your general direction.


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## D'Raven (Feb 11, 2013)

It is a teleport effect, does not require line of effect, by the wording it doesn't even require line of sight. If something was said before his action he would have done something different. The rest of the party have worked together in the past so some amount of table talk is reasonable, but any planing with Darrian would need to be in character.

And the elemental can fit, it can fight, it would simply take penalties. A person takes up a 5' square, but we are not 5' blocks. The penalties are there to show the difficulty for not having room to move around and dodge.


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## Scott DeWar (Feb 11, 2013)

Binder Fred said:


> .. .. .. .. ..and yes, I *still* think a Huge elemental squeezed into a force fishbowl is both funny  AND cool ),




agree!



> but you've got the master argument right there, Shayuri. *I bow in your general direction.*



 that would be south west for you.


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## Shayuri (Feb 11, 2013)

Draven, of course. I don't hold it against you in the least OOC. 

Similarly, I apologize on behalf of Mei-Ying as well...I don't mean to just stomp all over your strategy and ideas. Mei just has her own idea, and swapping places with her elemental isn't part of it. In the future, I'm sure we'll be able to make very good use of tactics like this though.


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## Jemal (Feb 11, 2013)

just for the official ruling from on high : all forms of teleportation effects can pass through force effects unless either the teleportation or force effect specifically states otherwise.
Also I know its been dealt with, but benign transposition must be cast on a WILLING target, so by definition if Mei doesn't want to go he cant make her.

And finally, things like this are exactly why I (And wade) wanted this fight. 

I'll also have to check how big - exactly - the force bubble is, b/c while a creature CAN fit/fight in a smaller space, there is still a limit.
*EDIT: OK so the bubble is 10' high and 10' across, it's just barely big enough for Wade to function, the Elemental would have to squeeze, gaining massive penalties, however it  would not be able to do so with Wade already in there.


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## Jemal (Feb 11, 2013)

Also, regarding my post IC about tripping someone who's standing up, I have seen many people argue over this, but in the end there is an official ruling (Or at least as official as you can get with the hundreds of authors involved in D&D)
From the Wizards of the Coast Rules of the Game article on their main website.  Near the bottom it states: 


> t's possible to attempt a trip attack as an attack of opportunity. Fortunately, you can't be tripped while getting up from prone, at least not through the attack of opportunity you provoke. That because attacks of opportunity are resolved before the actions that provoke them (there are a few exceptions, see Rules of the Game: All About Attacks of Opportunity for details). When you try to stand up from a prone position, the attack of opportunity comes before you get back on your feet. Since you're still prone when the attack comes, the attack of opportunity can't trip you.


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## Binder Fred (Feb 11, 2013)

Jemal said:


> Also a note: Wade is standing after the teleport.  I've always ruled that if it can transport you across a world and change which way you're facing, it should allow sitting/changing/laying down alterations.



Makes sense. It was this bit that sort of got me confused: ".. and still laying on the ground!" By the by, do we have a better idea of Wade's touch AC, now that Ur has both hit and missed him with touch attacks?



Jemal said:


> ALSO, quick rules FYI: You cant trip someone with the AoO provoked by them standing up, b/c the AoO happens *BEFORE* the action that causes it, hence your target would still be prone when you trip them, and then their 'stand up' action would go off and they'd be standing.



I, of course, happen not to agree with Skip's reasoning (are you surprised? ). From my point of view it rests wholly on an arbitrary binary prone/not prone view of things which has no basis in reality as we know it. 1. You get an attack of opportunity because your opponent has opened up his defenses. i.e. in this case Ur would get an (hypotethical) AoO, not because Wade just lies there, but because he's made himself stationary/dropped his guard by *starting to get up*. The attack of opportunity, by its very nature, therefore occurs not before the triggering action, but _before the triggering action is completed_, when Wade is neither down, nor fully up -- it's in fact this attempt to change his state that triggers the attack, and *that's* what the trip attempt, in this case, is against: not a prone foe, but a foe *attempting to get up*. 2. Anybody who has watched or experienced any fighting at all (be it TV or real life) knows that it's very possible indeed to trip someone as they are trying to get up IRL (by kicking out a suporting arm or leg, pushing at an unbraced moment, smashing the guy down, etc). Skip's reasoning is therefore based on a word for word interpretation of the rules without bothering to look at the underlying reality those rules are trying to model. Poor form in my book.

Frankly, I have no idea why the whole of D&D history seems geared at making any manoeuver other than the straight damage-dealing attack so difficult. The rules for tripping, bull-rushing, disarming, etc are already so skewed againts their users that it takes a pile of Feats to make them halfway workeable. There's really no need to pile on any more on top, IMHO.


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## Shayuri (Feb 12, 2013)

I think it's because it's pretty easy to make a 'trip build' who can render an enemy completely unable to regain his feet once down, if that's allowed. The rules of the game aren't really meant to strictly model reality...they're also to make the game at least semi-protected against that kind of abuse.

There may be better ways to do it, I grant you, but this is how they chose to.

There's a fair amount of actions that are resolved as straight rolls against a DC when they should probably be resolved as contested actions. But even then, it's not hard to stack bonuses to make the outcomes of contests foregone, thus removing the randomness from the results.


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## Jemal (Feb 12, 2013)

AH, I see.  The 'still laying on the ground" comment was meant to indicate that he appeared to be in both places _At the same time_ - Standing in the bubble AND laying on the ground where he was tripped.  (The ability he used - 'flee the scene' invocation - simultaneously teleports you AND Creates an illusion of you where you were for one round that reacts as though you were still there.)  Apologies for not making that clearer.

As to the ruling, I can understand your reasoning, but as Shayuri already pointed out, it's a big balance issue.  A trip character (Like, say for completely random example...you  ) Could easily keep many opponents out of a fight otherwise.
Even without the ability to just keep someone prone as long as you want, you can still force them every round to to either expend a move action (Or have some other way of getting up) or remain prone and suffer the consequences.  

I've always found Trip, Disarm and Grapple to be fairly powerful, so much so that I dislike using them against PC's.  The only time they AREN'T highly effective is when they're completely useless because the target is immune (Or virtually immune, such as by dint of having an even better check than the attacker)


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## Binder Fred (Feb 12, 2013)

Jemal said:


> (The ability he used - 'flee the scene' invocation - simultaneously teleports you AND Creates an illusion of you where you were for one round that reacts as though you were still there.)



Oh. Didn't get that at all, obviously. Might have acted differently if I knew... Then again, maybe not, considering Ur was the only fighter able to get inside the bubble that round... Eh, it's done now.



Jemal said:


> As to the ruling, I can understand your reasoning, but as Shayuri already pointed out, it's a big balance issue.  A trip character (Like, say for completely random example...you  ) Could easily keep many opponents out of a fight otherwise.
> Even without the ability to just keep someone prone as long as you want, you can still force them every round to to either expend a move action (Or have some other way of getting up) or remain prone and suffer the consequences.



You mean somewhat like, say, the Daze cantrip at low levels? Confusion/charm/slow spells? Trip attemps *are* fairly nice when they work (that being, you know, the point), but contrarely to most things, they are resisted *twice* (once from the touch, once from the Str), allow the defender an opportunity to turn the tables if the trip attack should fail and, in the non-Feated version, even give out an AoO for your trouble(!), all of which balances things some I would think... Would it be better accepted if the target did not suffer from the Prone disadvantages when under an AoO Trip? (For no RL reason that I can see, but much better to loose a hard won advantage than not being able to use it at all, right?). What say yee?

(While on the subject, I don't generally consider Ur to be a "trip character". He's far from optimized to be one anyways. I think of him more as a General Support character. He's much more polyvalent than, say, Tutek, and, if he ever manages to lay his hands on a Divine Might item he can use, he might even manage to be at least competitive in the straight damage-dealing arena as well.)


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## D'Raven (Feb 14, 2013)

I hide! I consider Darrian to be a hide character.


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## Binder Fred (Feb 16, 2013)

Jemal said:


> Not sure where you get the >4, >4, 16, 5.
> Urs rolls last turn against TOUCH AC were 1 (Failed hit), 18(Hit, but then failed trip), 16(followed by successful trip), and then non-trip attacks.  His Trip attack this turn was a 5.
> Thats 1, 18, 16, 5 for his last for touch AC/trip attacks.



Oh, right. Forgot that second "miss" was on the str check and not the Touch. Not that unlucky then. 

By the by, do I guess that your silence means you're thinking about my counter-proposal above very hard indeed.  Quoted below for convenience:



> Would it be better accepted if the target did not suffer from the Prone disadvantages when under an AoO Trip? (For no RL reason that I can see, but much better to loose a hard won advantage than not being able to use it at all, right?). What say yee?


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## Binder Fred (Feb 22, 2013)

Calling  [MENTION=51271]Voda Vosa[/MENTION],  [MENTION=24234]kinem[/MENTION],  [MENTION=6699311]D'Raven[/MENTION] and  [MENTION=4936]Shayuri[/MENTION] (for that move action if you want) to the IC thread? You guys are up!


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## Shayuri (Feb 22, 2013)

Meep, my bad. Thanks!


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## Scott DeWar (Feb 22, 2013)

Shayuri said:


> Meep, my bad. Thanks!




too much snow up there?


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## Jemal (Feb 22, 2013)

Binder Fred said:


> You mean somewhat like, say, the Daze cantrip at low levels? Confusion/charm/slow spells? Trip attemps *are* fairly nice when they work (that being, you know, the point), but contrarely to most things, they are resisted *twice* (once from the touch, once from the Str), allow the defender an opportunity to turn the tables if the trip attack should fail and, in the non-Feated version, even give out an AoO for your trouble(!), all of which balances things some I would think...



It depends on how you look at it.  Trip is something anybody can attempt.  If you're looking at it from the viewpoint of someone who hasn't invested any resources into it, tripping is much more effective than ANY spell, because there's no such thing as a spell anybody can cast without previously investing something in it.  Someone who invests half as much into tripping as one would into casting those types of 'control' spells can be extremely effective, without having to worry about how many 'times per day' they can do it.
Lets look at the most minimal of investment For Tripping, it's one feat: Improved trip, and good bab/str.  For a spell, that would be the equivalent of one spell chosen(lets say Hold Monster) and good caster level/stat.  Looking at your specific stats, someone who invested the same casting stat as you use for your tripping stat, the DC to resist their charm would be 10+5(spell level) +7(stat) = 22 Will DC.  You require a touch attack, he requires a spell resistance check (given average rarities and numbers of spell resistance vs touch AC's, I'd put those at about the same difficulty). You can be tripped if you fail, they have limited spells per day.



> Would it be better accepted if the target did not suffer from the Prone disadvantages when under an AoO Trip? (For no RL reason that I can see, but much better to loose a hard won advantage than not being able to use it at all, right?). What say yee?



I presume you're trying to convince me to change my ruling by offering this as an alternative, but I'm afraid I still have to stick to the original rule.  
The advantage is not hard-won, it only seems like that because you're trying to trip a character with a high touch ac and a high trip check himself.  Outside of truly epic and gargantuan monsters, Wade's about the hardest thing to trip you'll come across in this campaign (and I'd imagine most others)... And you got him on what the second try?
Against most average challenges, Ur will be a wrecking machine capable of knocking 90+% of his opponents flat with little effort.  Ur's chance of tripping not only usually significantly better than his chance of hitting, it afterwards IMPROVES said chance (As well as that of all your allies).  

Lets compare to Tutek, for example.  I think he's a good example of a "Powerful Fighter"
If UR were to just full round Tutek: 26/26/26/21/15 VS AC 32.  
Chances of hitting: 75, 75, 75, 50, 25.  That's statistically 3 hits.

If he were to try Trip vs Tutek: 26/26/26/21/15 vs touch ac 13. +21 on the opposed str check vs Tutek's +13.
you need a 1 to not hit, and he has to roll 8 higher than you to beat you.  That's a VERY good chance that you'll win.  If you roll above 12 you've already won.. that's a MINIMUM 45% chance of beating him before he even gets a roll.
With the +4 for attacking prone, your chances of hitting for damage are then 95/95/95/70/45.  So if you DO trip on the first attack, you get a statistical 4 hits.  If you DONT trip on the first, but get him the second time, you get statistically 3.05 hits.
So even if you get extremely unlucky on the trip check and he manages to stay standing for the first hit, your average damage is still the same(Insignificantly better, actually), AND your opponent is prone, causing him to either expend an action to stand(Granting you yet another free hit), use some sort of resource, attempt a skill check, or take the continued penalties for remaining prone.

Now you may say "But Tutek's a Brute-fighter, not the average monster type we'll be facing".  Well, first off I'd say to you that I prefer using characters to monsters, and second Off I say OK, lets pick a fairly standard CR 20 monster: The Balor.  he's bigger, harder to hit, and stronger than Tutek.  Better vs Trip in EVERY way.
Balor has AC 35, Touch 16, and opposes your trip with a +16.  SO..
If UR were to just full round IT: 26/26/26/21/15 VS AC 35.  
Chances of hitting: 60, 60, 60, 35, 10.  That's statistically 2.25 hits.

If he were to try Trip vs Balor: 26/26/26/21/15 vs touch ac 16. +21 on the opposed str check vs Balor's +16.
you still need a 1 to miss, and it has to roll 5 higher than you to beat you.  Still damn good odds for you.  You need a 16 to guarantee sucess(25% chance that he doesn't even get a roll).
With the +4 for attacking prone, your chances of hitting for damage are then 80/80/80/55/30.  So if you DO trip on the first attack, you get a statistical 3.25 hits.  If you DONT trip on the first, but get him the second time, you get statistically 2.45 hits.
Again, even if you get unlucky and he beats you on the first trip, odds of him beating you the second time are exceptionally slim, and you STILL increase your hit Rate, PLUS the above 'negatives of being prone'.

Does it still seem so useless?


*EDIT: Just for giggles, lets do the above Hold Monster caster vs tutek and Balor. 
Remember this Caster has as much invested in Hold Monster as UR does in Trip.

Tutek 0 SR, Will save +14 vs DC 22 = 35% chance of being held.
Chance of failing intial save AND not breaking out on his round: 12%

BALOR: SR 28 vs CL20, Will save +19 vs DC 22 = 65% chance of beating SR, 10% chance of failign save = 6.5%
Chance of failing initial save AND not breaking out on its round: 0.65%
/edit*



> (While on the subject, I don't generally consider Ur to be a "trip character". He's far from optimized to be one anyways. I think of him more as a General Support character. He's much more polyvalent than, say, Tutek, and, if he ever manages to lay his hands on a Divine Might item he can use, he might even manage to be at least competitive in the straight damage-dealing arena as well.)



Ur can out-trip most average brute/fighter types of his level, in my mind if you're significantly better at something than the average, that means that you're good at it, hence UR is good at tripping.  I never said he was the best.


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## Jemal (Feb 24, 2013)

For any who are interested, I have posted Wade's sheet to the Rogue's Gallery.
Any mistakes you may notice in the build are not bugs, they are features intended to make the encounter more fun.. yeah, that's it...


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## Scott DeWar (Feb 24, 2013)

What's with the "classified" stuff? huh?


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## Shayuri (Feb 24, 2013)

Hm. I'm fairly sure Ascetic Mage doesn't work with Warlocks. I think you actually need to be a spellcaster. Invocations wouldn't count. Not that I'm complaining.


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## Jemal (Feb 25, 2013)

True, technically it doesn't work with warlock b/c it requires to cast 2nd lvl spells, but I'm using a bit of a variant.  I used 2nd lvl spell like abilities to qualify and he can't gain the offensive bonuses through spell slot sacrifice - all he gets from it is the Cha to AC instead of Wisdom, b/c he's supposed to be a bit crazy, and so a high wisdom didn't make as much sense to me.  
I could have easily pumped his wis to match instead, just preferred this way.


Scott -  I didn't actually DO any skills for him, so I left it 'classified' so I can get around to it whenever.  As for the other.. well, aren't you just glad I didnt use any of the dark invocations on you guys?


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## Scott DeWar (Feb 25, 2013)

uh-huh. I see. Note to self. Keep a really close eye on the titan forged construct.


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## Binder Fred (Mar 11, 2013)

So are we waiting for something in particular Jemal? Wade seems unusually tongue-tied.


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## Jemal (Mar 11, 2013)

Had a busy week, my manager's out on Medical leave so lots to take care of at work, and my baby girl's teething.  I been posting OOC stuff to threads but haven't  had enough time to do a game update, they usually take a while.
I get some days off now, so I'll try to do some updates.


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## Scott DeWar (May 15, 2013)

Please take note, I will be AFK pretty much all day tomorrow as I will be in surgery. Thank you.

Scott DeWar


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## Binder Fred (May 16, 2013)

The certainty of Science is with you, Scott. God too, probably.


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## Scott DeWar (May 16, 2013)

I would not be alive, had GOD not been with me!

[sblock=caution: religious content]
I am a believer that God created the laws of Physics so therefore can break said laws if it pleases him.
That is why I am still alive.
[/sblock]  

never mind what i had posted. You were the 8th poster of that thread.


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## Jemal (May 16, 2013)

To each his own.  I wish you Luck or the blessing of whichever higher power you may believe in.

And don't worry, we've never been what could be called a very 'fast paced' game, a day or two won't leave you pages behind.


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## Scott DeWar (May 16, 2013)

It is strange. I am as giddy as a school boy, but my blood pressure is 100/64. I expected it to be high.


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## Binder Fred (Jun 1, 2013)

Hello all,
field season is starting again so I'll be in the field for ten days starting monday. Expect slower posting from me for that time.


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## Scott DeWar (Jun 2, 2013)

Field season? [nosey]doing what?[/nosey]


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## Binder Fred (Jun 2, 2013)

[sblock=Spoiler warning ]Geology.[/sblock]


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## Jemal (Jun 2, 2013)

[sblock=Oh Really?]silly rockhound.  Don't you know it's all stardust anyway? 
Why look down when you could be looking up! 
[/sblock]


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## Scott DeWar (Jun 2, 2013)

Binder Fred said:


> [sblock=Spoiler warning ]Geology.[/sblock]




diamonds? oil or coal? uranium? cobalt? titanium? gold or other precious metals? rare earths? 

[sblock=opinion]geology can have quite the solid future![/sblock]


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## Jemal (Jun 2, 2013)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcYppAs6ZdI


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## Scott DeWar (Jun 3, 2013)

thank you, thank you. I'm here all week.


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## Jemal (Jun 3, 2013)

Game updated for anybody who may be keeping an eye here but not there.


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## Scott DeWar (Jun 3, 2013)

I have both threads on subscription.personally.


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## Binder Fred (Jun 4, 2013)

Scott DeWar said:


> diamonds? oil or coal? uranium? cobalt? titanium? gold or other precious metals? rare earths?



Lithium and tantalum/berylium this time around. Doing rare earths later this summer thought.



Scott DeWar said:


> geology can have quite the solid future!



Rock solid, right  It's certainly been paying the rent for the last few years. Fun stuff too.


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## Binder Fred (Jun 22, 2013)

Alright, so I'm perceiving three competing plans for the interview (correct me):

1- Send only servants with a message

2- Send a limited number of us with Darrian (say a "client" and one or two "bodyguards"). Others can wait outside or go shopping, as they wish.

3- We all go

For simplicity and speed, I suggest we vote for the option we want as players and simply go with the option with the most votes. Agreeable?

In that spirit I vote 2, with Tutek and Gerald as the envoys. Should be entertaining.


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## kinem (Jun 26, 2013)

As a player, option 2 with those two is OK with me.

IC, Braham prefers option 1. If we go, we should probably protect ourselves with mind blank, but that is expensive unless William can cast it on us.

Tutek especially is highly recognizable, and if our enemies from back home are making any attempt to keep tabs on the Bazaar (as Braham assumes they might be), having him go is inviting trouble. 

There is also the possibility that the illithid remembers Braham from the scroll, in which case Braham should go as the client, to prevent the number of us that the illithid knows about from growing much.


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## Shayuri (Jun 26, 2013)

3 seems best to me. As I suggested IC. 

Also, unless I'm mistaken, Mind Blank doesn't exist in this game. That is why Mei Ying doesn't have it. So we won't have blanket immunity. All we can do is shore up our saves, and/or use protections against divination which should still block mind reading and so on.


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## kinem (Jun 26, 2013)

Oh right, I forgot about that. It's such a standard spell. What then would be the best protection? Lead foil hats?

In that case, I think we should all go. It's what Jemal seemed to expect anyway. We might have a fight on our hands.


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## Binder Fred (Jun 26, 2013)

I don't know, Braham had a pretty good argument for him, specifically, not going (the fact that he holds our map in his head). That would be something an information broker would_ love_ to get his tentacles on, and resell to exactly the wrong party...

What are your thoughts,  [MENTION=51271]Voda Vosa[/MENTION],  [MENTION=6699311]D'Raven[/MENTION],  [MENTION=49929]Scott DeWar[/MENTION]?


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## Scott DeWar (Jun 27, 2013)

I think 3. Just a gut feeling though.


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## D'Raven (Jun 27, 2013)

My option both as a player and character would be 4. I go my self, I can act the suffering merchant plagued with a well paying but foolish client, lots of merchant in jokes and side insults to the client, but I realize that's not much of an option, so depending how discreet people can be 3 is fine but 2 is better if some think they can't keep from spilling secrets. Darrian is rather paranoid after all.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## kinem (Jun 28, 2013)

Ok. Darrian & 2 others. Any way the rest of us can keep tabs on them? Mei can cast message but that might not be enough.


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## Binder Fred (Jun 28, 2013)

I think D'raven migth have been voting for *option* 2, with half a vote in option 3? (which would make it three and a half votes for option 3. We all go, I believe). In any event, Ur will go if everybody goes but will remain with (Braham?) if he decides to stay back and stake the place from across the street or something.

For communication, I don't think that's worth worrying about too much if this Illithid is at all competent (he probably has a shielded interview room too). So long as we have a way to signal an emergency, I think we should be alright -- so the only major worry would be an inexcapable anti-magic room, since a fireball through the roof is usually easy enough to interpret.


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## Jemal (Jun 29, 2013)

kinem said:


> Tutek especially is highly recognizable, and if our enemies from back home are making any attempt to keep tabs on the Bazaar (as Braham assumes they might be), having him go is inviting trouble.



Remember the bazaar is nigh-infinite, and the diversity is much more than anything you're used to at home.  Also there's practically no travel between the prime and the outer planes, so out here he's about as recognizable as Norman Borlaug.  Sure he's famous, and some people might know him, but that's a bit of a niche group.



> There is also the possibility that the illithid remembers Braham from the scroll, in which case Braham should go as the client, to prevent the number of us that the illithid knows about from growing much.



Highly unlikely from what you guys understand of the spell.  The magic shows a vision to you, not to those whom you see, unless they are EXTREMELY powerful - like demigods or Epic Casters with powerful magics specifically warding/searching for divinations that involve them.


And for the record, Darrian does know of a shop that sells magical aluminium helmets that prevents mind reading while worn, but are rather conspicuous, resist magical shape-changing and illusions to hide them, and if worn for extended periods of time cause increasing paranoia.


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## Shayuri (Jun 30, 2013)

Ah yes, the long-rumored Helmets of Tinf'oil. Their efficacy is legendary, as is the social stigma to those who wear them in public.

It is said that one cannot have an internal monologue with one on. One is compelled speak aloud those thoughts one normally keeps unsaid.

Truly, a blessing and curse mingled.


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## Scott DeWar (Jun 30, 2013)

We disagrees with you, there is no social stigma. Isn't that right? Yup.


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## Jemal (Jul 1, 2013)

Finished moving but still lots of unpacking, and forgot today's Canada day.  Will do updates when possible.


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## Scott DeWar (Jul 1, 2013)

packing today, moving tomorrow, unpacking tomorrow and the third, then July the 4th - Independence day - on Thursday. WEEEEEEEE!


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## Jemal (Jul 2, 2013)

Scott: Yeah feel your pain man.  Almost exactly same thing happened with me.  Packing, Movers postponed, then move, unpacking, and then July 1st(Canada day instead of Independence day).
Someone asked me to cover their shift at work tonight and between the laughing I forgot the polite way to say "AW HELL NO".


OK, so votes so far: 
Binder Fred: Send Darrian/Tutek/Gerard
Kinem: Either Send just messengers, or send Darrian/Tutek/Gerard
D'raven: Just Darrian
Shayuri: All go
Scott: All Go

Hmm, not exactly decisive.  Lets remove options 1 and "4".
I think it comes down to D'raven: would you rather go with Tutek and Gerard, take everybody, or slip away from them, going by yourself and probably ticking off the whole party and having your brain eaten?


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## Scott DeWar (Jul 3, 2013)

being disabled is even more frustrating as I can't do it myself! grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!

D'raven: just flip a coin!


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## Jemal (Jul 9, 2013)

Soo...


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## Binder Fred (Jul 9, 2013)

So we move the scene to the ilithid's place of business? Everybody is assumed to be there unless they say otherwise in their first post after the scene change.


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## Scott DeWar (Jul 10, 2013)

sounds good, binder fred.


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## Jemal (Jul 12, 2013)

Sorry, been trying to get ahold of D'raven to no success.  Will update soon whether I do or not, but will have to alter things if he's gone.


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## kinem (Jul 12, 2013)

It's kind of like Murphy's Law, or you might call it the Curse of Frodo: Whenever any one player becomes especially important to the next scene in a PBP, or to the game as a whole, that player becomes unavailable.


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## Shayuri (Jul 12, 2013)

lol

I'm not sure how that applies to Frodo, but it's a funny (and true) statement.


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## D'Raven (Jul 12, 2013)

Would like to mention something about male bovine solid waste about trying to get ahold of me, you got my #, jemal. and would like to apologize for not being on line, sunk in to an anime fugue lately. Just wasn't feeling like i could live up to darrian's badassery


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## Binder Fred (Jul 13, 2013)

kinem said:


> It's kind of like Murphy's Law, or you might call it the Curse of Frodo: Whenever any one player becomes especially important to the next scene in a PBP, or to the game as a whole, that player becomes unavailable.



Clear case of observer's bias though: you only really notice that a player has become especially important to the next scene when he's missing.  (and vice versa)


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## Binder Fred (Jul 27, 2013)

Hey there, folks! Just warning you guys (and galls) that I'll be going on vacation from the 5th onwards (i.e. two mondays from now). I'll therefore be away from the internet for about ten(10) days during that time, if all goes well (camping out and all that ). Can't wait!

Sent a PM to  [MENTION=9026]Jemal[/MENTION] last Wednesday, no reply so far.


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## Scott DeWar (Jul 27, 2013)

jealous!


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## Jemal (Jul 28, 2013)

Sorry everybody, things on ENWorld had been moving so slowly that I stopped checking it daily.. then it just kinda fell off my rotation.  I'm back now and will start updating stuff.


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## Binder Fred (Sep 18, 2013)

Double post.


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## Binder Fred (Sep 18, 2013)

Um, so are we going to wait some more for  [MENTION=49929]Scott DeWar[/MENTION] to post,  [MENTION=9026]Jemal[/MENTION]?


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## Scott DeWar (Sep 18, 2013)

Did I miss something? I am out of time today, so I will look Thursday.


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## Binder Fred (Sep 19, 2013)

Scott DeWar said:


> Did I miss something?



I'd say yes?  

We're in a battle with an orc mage and Gerald is up. See a quick recap here.


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## Scott DeWar (Sep 20, 2013)

I think I got a post up! A simple action, but I am a bit distracted by pain right now.


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