# [META]Alright! Take it outside!



## Torm (Jan 27, 2005)

_I apologize to the moderators if this belongs in Meta, but I couldn't find Meta, so I'll post it here. If there is a Meta, I'd be glad to have this moved there, if you could point it out to me. Thanks._

Does ENWorld need a Flaming Forum? Someplace to direct people to take their arguments if they get heated, or to move entire threads to if they break down like that?

I know the idea is that we should all try not to offend Eric's Grandma, but in the past couple of years of lurking and/or posting on the board, I've noticed that there are certain topics that seem to inevitably bring hard feelings into the matter. One, for example, is Paladins and their Faiths (and no, this isn't what I want the topic of this thread to be about, please) - people tend to bring real world religions into it and some don't seem to be able to take others' comments about their religion for what they are worth - the ramblings of somebody you don't really know on a _message board_ (however illustrious this one may be)  .

When it comes to stuff like this, would ENWorld benefit for someplace they can 'take it outside' and get it all out - or do you think it might just make things worse?


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## Crothian (Jan 27, 2005)

no, EN World doesn't need a place like that.  few arguments ever get that heated, and when they do report to a mod and let them calm everyone down or close the thread.  personally, I don't even consider the "flames" of En World to be real flames anymore after seeing what happens elsewhere.

and meta is near the botome of the list of forums.


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## Torm (Jan 27, 2005)

Hmm. Found it. That's very odd. I've always used the little 'tree' of Site>Forums>Forum>Thread up top to navigate. Before the new server, clicking on RPG Forums took me to the main Forums page, and clicking on EN World - Morrus' D&D / d20 News & Reviews Site took me to the main site page (the one with news). Now, it seems like it has moved down a level - clicking on the latter takes me to the main Forums page, and on the former takes me to an abbreviated list of Forums that, as far as I know, didn't exist before....

Okay, thanks. No problem, just will take a little getting used to. 

The only reason I suggest such a thing is that I've seen it work on other forums - people get irritated and take it to a flaming forum, and when they come back (if they come back) they seem much calmer. At least about _that_ topic.


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## Crothian (Jan 27, 2005)

other forums also need it more.  En World doesn't seem to produce that many topics that become flame bait.


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## JoeBlank (Jan 27, 2005)

EN World has a sister site where such activity is permitted, and folks do sometimes take disagreements there.

It used to be called Nothingland, but that has evolved into something else. They prefer for you to do a little work to find the site now, but I think you can figure it out. Try reading this thread:

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=112580

My apologies if I am telling you something you already know.


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## Torm (Jan 27, 2005)

You aren't. That site is ... odd. It will require further exploration.  

I can't believe my good old DM, Henry, never told me of this place.  

Wouldn't work for what I'm talking about though. If angry people have to make new acc'ts at a new forum first, I don't think they would.


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## diaglo (Jan 27, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> If angry people have to make new acc'ts at a new forum first, I don't think they would.




i have accounts on over 15 different sites.


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## Crothian (Jan 27, 2005)

diaglo said:
			
		

> i have accounts on over 15 different sites.




slacker.....


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## Crothian (Jan 27, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> You aren't. That site is ... odd. It will require further exploration.
> 
> I can't believe my good old DM, Henry, never told me of this place.
> 
> Wouldn't work for what I'm talking about though. If angry people have to make new acc'ts at a new forum first, I don't think they would.




Actually that was one of the reasons for Nothingland and how it becasme the sister site of EN World.  It was a place that people could go and not worry about grnadma and flame away and act like they wanted.  That way EN World could be a bit more serious and less offensive for those of us who wanted that.


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## DragonSword (Jan 27, 2005)

> Actually that was one of the reasons for Nothingland and how it becasme the sister site of EN World. It was a place that people could go and not worry about grnadma and flame away and act like they wanted. That way EN World could be a bit more serious and less offensive for those of us who wanted that.




...And guess which is more popular...


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## Piratecat (Jan 27, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> Does ENWorld need a Flaming Forum? Someplace to direct people to take their arguments if they get heated, or to move entire threads to if they break down like that?




This won't ever happen. It's not an aspect of the site we want to run.

Incidentally, Meta is down at the bottom of the forum listings. I'll slide this over.


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## Crothian (Jan 27, 2005)

DragonSword said:
			
		

> ...And guess which is more popular...




well, considering Nothingland now needs a compas, a flashlight, and a pick axe to find I'd imagine it is EN World.


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## Rel (Jan 27, 2005)

All things considered, I think it is a good think not to have a "Flame War" forum here at ENWorld.

I'm not a member but I am a long time lurker at a site called "The Straight Dope Message Boards" (spun off many years ago from threads devoted to answering questions along the lines of Cecil Adams, of Straight Dope fame).  They have a whole board there called "The BBQ Pit" for people to flame each other or just rant about life in general.

The "ranting about life in general" part is fine and certainly gives people a chance to exercise some creative profanity but the "flame other posters" part of it doesn't solve many problems in my opinion.  What usually happens is that somebody posts a link in the offending thread on the general part of the boards and says something like "Torm, you're wanted in the Pit."  There they rip into the person with a moderate to large degree of vitriol, sometimes perhaps overstating things a bit just so the next person doesn't come along and say, "that was a pretty lame Pitting".

From here things go from bad to worse with more people popping in to say how they thought that person X was a jackass too or how person Y is a jerk for Pitting person X and this rambles on for a while, back and forth.  Eventually one or both sides lose steam and the thread falls away.  But I doubt the ill feelings every really go away after something like that and it is not unfrequent to see the same people on opposite sides of many a Pit thread time and again just because of animosity built up from threads past.

So, in other words, it causes more problems than it solves and for every pair that walk away saying, "Glad we got that out of our system.  Now we can agree to disagree." there is another pair who will gladly snipe at each other every time they appear in the same thread from then on.  I think the system we have here is workable and fine as it is, in some ways sounding a bit like two Victorian englishmen having a disagreement.

"You sir are being most disagreeable!"

"As are you!"

"Well I find your position ill considered and without support."

"And yours is just as malodorous as your game sessions must be!"

"Good sir, any escalation of your argument beyond that would constitute a personal attack!  As they are forbidden her then I must bid you to cease!"

"Very well then but know that I shall continue to hold your position on this matter in the lowest regard!"

"And I yours!"

"See you at the Game Day Saturday then?"

"Indeed!"

"Cheerio then!"

"Pip-Pip!"


You know.  That sort of thing.

And I'll note that the new addendum to my .sig never seemed more appropriate...


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## Cyberzombie (Jan 27, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> You aren't. That site is ... odd. It will require further exploration.




You're welcome there.  



			
				Torm said:
			
		

> Wouldn't work for what I'm talking about though. If angry people have to make new acc'ts at a new forum first, I don't think they would.




You would be surprised, actually.  A large number of people have done just that over the years.

To clarify, Nutkinland (aka Nothingland, aka Dreadful & Sinister, currently Damnation Army) is a spinoff of Eric Noah's old boards.  ENWorld is the sister site of Nutkinland/Damnation Army, actually.  We're older and you young whipper snappers better remember that, no matter how many posters y'all have.


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## Torm (Jan 27, 2005)

Well, it would appear I was looking for the solution to a problem that has already been solved, in the form of Damnation Army.

So.... ne_ver_mind. 



			
				Cyberzombie said:
			
		

> You're welcome there.



Thanks.


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## Desdichado (Jan 27, 2005)

Ah, shucks.  Nevermind.


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## Berandor (Jan 28, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> CZ said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 Unless you're Roman Virtue, of course.


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## JoeBlank (Jan 28, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> All things considered, I think it is a good think not to have a "Flame War" forum here at ENWorld.
> 
> I'm not a member but I am a long time lurker at a site called "The Straight Dope Message Boards" (spun off many years ago from threads devoted to answering questions along the lines of Cecil Adams, of Straight Dope fame). They have a whole board there called "The BBQ Pit" for people to flame each other or just rant about life in general




I lurk on the SDMB too, small world. Couldn't agree more about the BBQ Pit, other than it seems to provide an outlet for people who just can't resist flaming, and keeps it confined to one forum. Since we have NKL/NTL/DA, we have the same thing in a sense. It does seem like the most recent evolution has gone a step further aware for the forum's roots, and I am finding it hard to think of DA as a sister site to EN World. Maybe it will grow on me.


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## Morrus (Jan 28, 2005)

Cyberzombie said:
			
		

> To clarify, Nutkinland (aka Nothingland, aka Dreadful & Sinister, currently Damnation Army) is a spinoff of Eric Noah's old boards. ENWorld is the sister site of Nutkinland/Damnation Army, actually. We're older and you young whipper snappers better remember that, no matter how many posters y'all have.




That's so not true!

Either both sites trace their lineage back to where they were started (in which case EN World and Eric's are the same board and predate NKL by a year or more), or neither can (in which case DM is about a month old).  You can't use one rule for one and one for another!


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## Rel (Jan 28, 2005)

Morrus said:
			
		

> You can't use one rule for one and one for another!




Yes they can!

They're the *DAMNATION* Army, not the Salvation Army.  It's what they do!  It's ALL they do! [/Terminator]


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## Desdichado (Jan 28, 2005)

But I see the point.  Although there is some overlap of users over there (or used to be, anyway) it seems more and more like they're two entirely separate communities with largely entirely separate users.


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## DaveMage (Jan 28, 2005)

It's always entertaining to visit NKL and find out what EN world users are like when they are allowed to "let it go". 

People who seem like such ladies and gentlemen over here are a bit different over there.

Funny, funny stuff.


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## BOZ (Jan 28, 2005)

DaveMage said:
			
		

> It's always entertaining to visit NKL and find out what EN world users are like when they are allowed to "let it go".
> 
> People who seem like such ladies and gentlemen over here are a bit different over there.




i know not what you mean.  *whistles innocently*


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## Turanil (Jan 29, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> The "ranting about life in general" part is fine and certainly gives people a chance to exercise some creative profanity but the "flame other posters" part of it doesn't solve many problems in my opinion.



I would really like to see a "*Ranting about life in general*" forum, and would spend entire days on it. (In fact, for those who don't know, ranting is a French specialty.)  However, I don't think such a forum would have anything to do with Enworld which is primarily devoted to D&D/d20 gaming. Yet maybe a sub general forum dedicated to "*Ranting about D&D/d20 in general*" would be interesting?


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## Darrin Drader (Jan 31, 2005)

DragonSword said:
			
		

> ...And guess which is more popular...




Yes, but guess which one has more fun...


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## Droid101 (Jan 31, 2005)

Whisperfoot said:
			
		

> DragonSword said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Zing!!


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## FoolishFrost (Jan 31, 2005)

I LOVE Nutingarmy!  You know, I get my best reviewers from there.  I can always find somebody looking to give their opinion on something!

 

Sometimes you don't want to _hear _it...  But...

Anyway, I go there to discuss things that are so off-kilter as to break this place.  Anyway, I lake my ENW clean, and my DA _evil_.

Later...


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## Trainz (Feb 1, 2005)

Incidentally, the flames at DA tend to be low nowadays. People get to know each other, and flaming for the sake of flaming has been done to death.

We're one happy disfunctional family !


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## ColonelHardisson (Feb 1, 2005)

DragonSword said:
			
		

> ...And guess which is more popular...




Nutkinland/Nothingland/Damnation Army has never tried to compete in a popularity contest with any incarnation of these boards. They co-exist relatively peacefully.


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## Teflon Billy (Feb 1, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> "You sir are being most disagreeable!"
> 
> "As are you!"
> 
> ...




Crap...I really want to have a flamewar akin to that one someday. I intend to end it with 



			
				Imaginary me said:
			
		

> "Good _day_ to you sir!"




I don't think this place needs a flaming forum. The whole rest of the internet is there if you need it.


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## maddman75 (Feb 1, 2005)

Just to be clear, TDA is NOT a flaming board.  Such personal attacks are allowed, so long as it doesn't become a vendetta.  Just because it annoys our masters to have two users pecking at each other like an old married couple in every freakin thread.  It is a place where you can discuss politics and religion, often quite heatedly.  There's also a lot of discussion about gaming, movies, family, and anything else.

Not to mention that after our last big change, many of the users adopted new user names.  I wouldn't be so quick to assume that its two entirely seperate communities.  Many of us drift over here now and again.  I haven't been here much, because well I've gotten into games other than D&D/d20.  Not much point in reading EN if you aren't into D&D.

I still play though, so I'll read a thread now and then.

It does get frustrating not being able to 'fire back', but that's what the place is like.  There are plenty of places to flame on the net, ENWorld doesn't need to go down that road.


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## Henry (Feb 1, 2005)

Actually, I've told Torm about nutkinnothingdamnationarmyland, but at the time, it was Nutkinland, and has changed identities about two dozen times to throw off the ATF agents and the revenu'ers... 

But for here, flamewars are settled in one of the best ways I've ever seen on a messageboard: they parties can take it to e-mail ("outside"), or just agree to disagree. That way, it doesn't become a public spectacle. Honestly, do you think people on talk shows like Springer and Povich actually resolve anything by airing their dirties in public? It just stirs the fires worse than a schoolyard brawl in the middle of a circle shouting, "fight! fight!"

Anyway, Torm, come on over to Damation Army. If they welcome you, they like you, and such invitations should not be trifled with lightly.


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## Desdichado (Feb 1, 2005)

maddman75 said:
			
		

> Not to mention that after our last big change, many of the users adopted new user names.  I wouldn't be so quick to assume that its two entirely seperate communities.  Many of us drift over here now and again.  I haven't been here much, because well I've gotten into games other than D&D/d20.  Not much point in reading EN if you aren't into D&D.



I'm not "so quick" in making that assumption.  I made that claim based on when I used to peregrinate over there when it was still nutkinland, for goodness sakes.  I don't have much interest in following it to its latest location, to be perfectly honest.


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## A2Z (Feb 1, 2005)

maddman75 said:
			
		

> I still play though, so I'll read a thread now and then.
> 
> It does get frustrating not being able to 'fire back', but that's what the place is like.  There are plenty of places to flame on the net, ENWorld doesn't need to go down that road.



It does suck! But at least we can always start a thread on DA to vent. I'm going to start one now about DS.


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## MerakSpielman (Feb 1, 2005)

One of the fun things about tDA is that people get called out for what they are. If, for the sake of example, you're a complete moron, the nice people here aren't allowed to inform you of the fact, and you might live your life in ignorance and denial. Spend a few days at tDA and all your happy little illusions can be shattered!


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## Darkness (Feb 1, 2005)

Of course, a few people of questionable mental faculties will call you a complete moron in any case.
And that's when they aren't trying very much.


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## diaglo (Feb 1, 2005)

MerakSpielman said:
			
		

> Spend a few days at tDA and all your happy little illusions can be shattered!





or reinforced.


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## MerakSpielman (Feb 1, 2005)

Darkness said:
			
		

> Of course, a few people of questionable mental faculties will call you a complete moron in any case.
> And that's when they aren't trying very much.



What morons!


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## Darkness (Feb 1, 2005)

*I* know you're joking but let's be careful with our choice of language lest someone doesn't get the joke and says something inappropriate.


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## MerakSpielman (Feb 1, 2005)

Aw, you're no fun anymore.


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## Darkness (Feb 1, 2005)

I've seen a lot of threads like this over the years. There are always some trolls looking for an opportunity.

My last post is there to keep _them_ in line. I know _you_ won't cause trouble.


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## A2Z (Feb 1, 2005)

Darkness said:
			
		

> *I* know you're joking but let's be careful with our choice of language lest someone doesn't get the joke and says something inappropriate.



Like this?

Ooo eee, ooo ah ah ting tang walla walla, bing bang!!


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## EricNoah (Feb 1, 2005)

A2Z said:
			
		

> tang




For shame!  Beverage of Astronauts (TM) ... or something else?????


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## Henry (Feb 1, 2005)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> For shame!  Beverage of Astronauts (TM) ... or something else?????




He's talking about swords, Eric. For shame on you! What'd you think he was talking about - Imperial Chinese Dynasties?!?!


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## dream66_ (Feb 2, 2005)

ENWorld and DA arn't in compitition.   It's sorta a happy symbiotic relationship...   No, that's not quite right, maybe Parasitic.   Yeah that's it.

You don't need us, and we don't need you, but as long as your here we're quite happy to drain the life outta you.


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## Evilhalfling (Feb 2, 2005)

Cyberzombie said:
			
		

> You're welcome there.   *We love Flaming Newbies*




Fixed it for you .... 

oh sorry, I go there when I am feeling hostile. 

also we have Randomling's House 
which seems to be a kinder gentler spin off,  
guess that makes this purgatory.  No wonder I spend so much time here


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## Trainz (Feb 2, 2005)

Evilhalfling said:
			
		

> Fixed it for you ....
> 
> oh sorry, I go there when I am feeling hostile.




Which is a bad idea.

If you go there only when you need to randomly bash something, you won't enjoy your experience.

I personally go there when I want to talk about something else than D&D, that's all.

There IS life outside of D&D people. And Santa doesn't exist.


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## Rel (Feb 2, 2005)

Trainz said:
			
		

> There IS life outside of D&D people. And Santa doesn't exist.




BLASPHEMER!!


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## Trainz (Feb 2, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> BLASPHEMER!!





Which part ?

D&D or Santa ?


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## Mercule (Feb 2, 2005)

Trainz said:
			
		

> If you go there only when you need to randomly bash something, you won't enjoy your experience.




Quoted for truth. Some of us took a while to figure that out, but just because something is allowed doesn't mean it's the best idea.


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## Rel (Feb 2, 2005)

Trainz said:
			
		

> Which part ?
> 
> D&D or Santa ?




Both of course, silly.


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## (contact) (Feb 2, 2005)

Mercule said:
			
		

> Quoted for truth. Some of us took a while to figure that out, but just because something is allowed doesn't mean it's the best idea.




Woah, dude.  That sounds all . . . grownup.  And stuff.

" Reserve your judgments and words
And you maintain your influence;
Speak your mind and take positions
And nothing will save you.

"As observing detail is clarity,
So maintaining flexibility is strength;
Use the light but shed no light,
So that you do yourself no harm,
But embrace clarity."


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## MerakSpielman (Feb 3, 2005)

(contact) said:
			
		

> Woah, dude. That sounds all . . . grownup. And stuff.
> 
> " Reserve your judgments and words
> And you maintain your influence;
> ...



OK, who the **** hijacked (contact)'s account?


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## Darrin Drader (Feb 3, 2005)

MerakSpielman said:
			
		

> OK, who the **** hijacked (contact)'s account?




Must have been Neckface. The bastard.


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## Squirrel Nutkin (Feb 3, 2005)

Whisperfoot said:
			
		

> The bastard.



Are we still talking about swords?


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## Gez (Feb 3, 2005)

Yes. _Neckface swords_ are _+2 vorpal bastard swords_. It's said on page 337 of the DMG.


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## Mercule (Feb 3, 2005)

MerakSpielman said:
			
		

> OK, who the **** hijacked (contact)'s account?




I didn't even know he had an account here.  I thought ENWorld and standards and all.


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## Cyberzombie (Feb 3, 2005)

(contact) said:
			
		

> Woah, dude.  That sounds all . . . grownup.  And stuff.




Shh!  Don't tell anyone that we act like grownups there!  We have a reputation (?) to keep up!    


Morrus:  You just don't want to admit you're the baby of the family.  Brat!    

I swear, he's like another little brother...


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## PowerWordDumb (Feb 7, 2005)

diaglo said:
			
		

> or reinforced.




I prefer to think of it more as "re-forged in the fires of war".  You'll still have your illusions, but they'll be much harder and more dangerous when we're done with them.


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## Olive (Feb 7, 2005)

Trainz said:
			
		

> Incidentally, the flames at DA tend to be low nowadays. People get to know each other, and flaming for the sake of flaming has been done to death.




But surely that is at least in part the result of the removal of the flame centric forum ie. BFD?

Cos when there was a BFD, things spilt out into the rest of the board. at elast that's my memory, and it's confirmed by someone who used to be moderator of BFD at one point.


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## Cyberzombie (Feb 7, 2005)

Bad Fur Day was a much misunderstood forum.  People took what went on in there to heart, took it personally, and in some cases had total meltdowns.  It was way too rough a place for most people.

It is long gone, though.  About a year and a half, I think.  Now there's just general low level personal attacks, mostly in the Situation Room.

One thing we never figured out was how to have a poltics forum that didn't devolve into personal attacks.  However, if we ever figure THAT one out, we'll probably be able to take over the world in short order.


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## Olive (Feb 11, 2005)

Cyberzombie said:
			
		

> Bad Fur Day was a much misunderstood forum.  People took what went on in there to heart, took it personally, and in some cases had total meltdowns.  It was way too rough a place for most people.




I get that, but I don't think a BFD style forum would work anywhere because it willdegereate into that kind of stuff.


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