# Thoughts on the rebooted He-Man (Netflix)



## embee (Jul 23, 2021)

The He-Man reboot has just dropped on Netflix. I'd like to NOT have this devolve into a discussion of the societal aspects of the reboot and instead on the show's merits on its own.

That said, 2 episodes in and there is a definite problem. Who is this show for? Because it's sure not for small children. Animation wise, it's fine. Talent-wise, again, it's fine (with Sir Mark Hamill as Skeletor). Tonally, I think they missed the mark.

Frankly, it's too mature for small children. For example, the very first episode shows Moss Man being burned to death on screen. The second episode (The Poisoned Chalice) has a lot of body horror which is way too intense for a grade schooler. Episode 3 has an elderly man get called a cripple.

While they may have been going for the She-Ra audience, this show missed wide.

Beyond that, it's good a sword-and-sorcery cartoon with a pretty solid magic vs technology storyline. It's just a shame that it's too scary for little ones.

I'd love to hear all of your thoughts...


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## Argyle King (Jul 23, 2021)

I haven't watched it yet. 

But I'm not opposed to a more mature He-Man. I think the old movie (w/ Dolph Lundgren) struggled because it wasn't allowed to be mature enough.


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## jdrakeh (Jul 23, 2021)

Sounds like they may have been going for a Castlevania (the animated series) audience. (Which is okay with me.)


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## embee (Jul 23, 2021)

They certainly didn't skimp on getting top-shelf actors.

In addition to Hamill, there's Lena Headey as Evil-Lyn; Sarah Michelle Gellar as Teela; Stephen Root as Cringer; Diedrich Bader as King Randor and Trap Jaw; Alicia Silverstone as Queen Marlena; Justin Long as Roboto; Jason Mewes as Stinkor; Phil LaMarr as He-Ro; Tony Todd as Scare Glow; Cree Summer as Priestess; Kevin Michael Richardson as Beast Man and Kevin Conroy as Mer-Man (making a sort-of BTAS reunion). 

There's even Henry Rollins as Tri-Klops.


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## Morrus (Jul 23, 2021)

I assume it’s going for the nostalgia market, not kids who will have never heard of He-Man? Dunno. I haven’t watched it yet but I will!


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## Umbran (Jul 23, 2021)

embee said:


> While they may have been going for the She-Ra audience, this show missed wide.




I am pretty certain that's not the intended audience.  I expect it is aiming at a nostalgia audience.  Updated technical quality, add something more like a story.


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## Sacrosanct (Jul 23, 2021)

Morrus said:


> I assume it’s going for the nostalgia market, not kids who will have never heard of He-Man? Dunno. I haven’t watched it yet but I will!



Kevin Smith did an interview the other day when he said this show is for the fans of the original primarily, as well as bringing in new fans (presumably older fans).

Edit* here we go:


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## embee (Jul 23, 2021)

Umbran said:


> I am pretty certain that's not the intended audience.  It is aiming at a nostalgia audience.



Here's the thing...

She-Ra also aims at the nostalgia audience but is also really good at being a kid's show. It's one of my favorites and a fave of my 6 year-old.

Which then begs the question as to why _not _aim for a TV-7 audience instead of a TV-12 audience? If you took out the body horror, questionable language, and intense violence, you'd have a good kid's show. For example, the B-plot of Episode 4 goes into Orko's backstory. And it's a good B-plot that humanizes both him and Evil-Lyn.

Setting-wise, the show is dynamite. It nails fantasy tropes with perfection. I'm just saying that if I wanted to get a kid into fantasy, take the intensity down a little bit and you can get a new generation hooked as kids.


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## Morrus (Jul 23, 2021)

Wasn’t bad (first ep). My only issue was when He Man figured out that using his sword would absorb the energy of the universe or something and everybody was like “hmm, yes, I don’t need to do years off scientific study and some advanced equations to know that will work but it will kill you in the process”. He’s strong, but magically prescient isn’t one of his abilities, is it? Or how did he leap to that conclusion? It was Star Trek technobabble taken to an extreme. Next Wesley will decide that a tachyon emission from the deflector dish will invert the symmetry of the quantum foam and reverse the time anomaly or something.


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## reelo (Jul 23, 2021)

I thoroughly enjoyed it. I consider myself the target audience, being 41 and having been a huge fan as a kid in the mid-80s.

Then again, I also liked the She-Ra reboot, and both shows are _nothing_ alike!

If I had to critique one minor thing, it would be the fact that I find Teela's jaw (too square) and lips (too big) don't quite fit her. But that's a purely artistic thing, I've no issues with either her role or her character.


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## Umbran (Jul 23, 2021)

embee said:


> Here's the thing...
> 
> She-Ra also aims at the nostalgia audience but is also really good at being a kid's show. It's one of my favorites and a fave of my 6 year-old.
> 
> Which then begs the question as to why _not _aim for a TV-7 audience instead of a TV-12 audience?




So, I don't think She-Ra aims at TV-7 either.  Not for violence, but for emotional and plot complexity.


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## Umbran (Jul 23, 2021)

Morrus said:


> everybody was like “hmm, yes, I don’t need to do years off scientific study and some advanced equations to know that will work but it will kill you in the process”.




It is fantasy magical superheroes.  They don't need to do years of scientific study on _anything_.  They kitbash world-changing stuff in half-hour episodes all the time.


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## Morrus (Jul 23, 2021)

Umbran said:


> It is fantasy magical superheroes.  They don't need to do years of scientific study on _anything_.  They kitbash world-changing stuff in half-hour episodes all the time.



Sure. It still bugged me.


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## Umbran (Jul 23, 2021)

Morrus said:


> Sure. It still bugged me.




And that's fine.  But if you want scientifically intelligent fiction, you really picked the wrong show.


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## Morrus (Jul 23, 2021)

Umbran said:


> And that's fine.  But if you want scientifically intelligent fiction, you really picked the wrong show.



It’s not a binary thing. In fact, this show falls exactly into the “fun enough to watch, with some things that bug me enough to mention them” category, like most every show I watch does. Discussing the show is part of the enjoyment for me.


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## Yora (Jul 23, 2021)

Just don't do reboots. Of anything. Ever.

I've not seen it work even once.


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## Morrus (Jul 23, 2021)

Yora said:


> Just don't do reboots. Of anything. Ever.
> 
> I've not seen it work even once.



This works. Battlestar Galactica worked. D&D 5E works. Reboots work out all the time.


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## DammitVictor (Jul 23, 2021)

She-Ra seemed more at teenage girls than small children. I'd have no problem watching _Masters of the Universe: Revelation_ with my four-year-old daughter, but it was obviously aimed at middle-aged men (and women) who grew up with the original; this does raise some questions about the reasoning behind the female-led cast and sidelining of Adam, but I suspect honest inquiry would impossible at this point.

Aside from fridging Adam-- not just sidelining him, but using his death to prompt everyone else's character arcs-- this was the _Masters of the Universe_ I loved, and this was the _Masters of the Universe _I wanted. It's the version of MOTU that exists in my head, when I'm trying to explain why _my life's work_ is about bringing MOTU's aesthetics and sensibilities back to Old School D&D.

Feel like getting any deeper into why it worked so well for me, which parts of it _didn't_ work so well, and so on... would require both going on at length and getting deep into spoiler territory. We can only really gush about the _presentation_ for so much, and even the naysayers mostly agree the show's pretty.


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## Tonguez (Jul 23, 2021)

I binged all 5 and while its a serviceable story it ultimately rang hollow and the execution was quite frankly insulting to the legacy of He-Man and more importantly Adam. While it started okay and the episode 1 set up was fine, the jump after episode 2 quickly lost the momentum. While it was cool having Teela finally promoted to Man-at-Arms and her leading this story arc, , having no male leads (I dont count a robot or a faceless trollan) was I think a terrible creative choice, especially when the new character Andra was relegated to background after episode three -  MotU is ultimately a show targeting boys toys, She-Ra is the show to highlight female leads (and I ultimately loved its netflix reboot) the males in this are largely fridged

While the cast is talented and the character cameos are fun (especially episode 5) the voices didnt fit some characters (Merman), Mossman was wasted, Evil Lyns story didnt fit (she isnt Spellweaver), Orko wasnt fun, and having Skeletor as a Joker-ripoff was naff. I'm treating this as alternate reality fan movie as we still have the 2000s reboot as a true successor to the He-Man legacy.

Personally I would have really liked to see more interaction between Adam and Teela and have the story further explore Adams psychology without the He-Man _crutch, _but we get something that totally dumps on the male leads and replaces them with a story that is trying too hard to be deep and meaningful.


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## Umbran (Jul 23, 2021)

Morrus said:


> It’s not a binary thing. In fact, this show falls exactly into the “fun enough to watch, with some things that bug me enough to mention them” category, like most every show I watch does. Discussing the show is part of the enjoyment for me.




Sure.  And, I'm the sort that discussing the discussion is part of the enjoyment for me.  

If the show's ostensibly a cooking competition, is its complete lack of dance content a valid point?  I guess I can't say you _shouldn't_ be bugged by lack of tango in the Great British Baking Show... but maybe if you are bugged by it, that's less about the show than it is about the viewer?

When a show is produced and set in 21st century America, and the main male character is a sexist pig who should be the star example in human resources videos on sexual harassment, one of the female characters literally punches him in the face for it, and the character doesn't change and it is continued to be _played for laughs_, I think it valid to be bugged by that.  The show could do better.  

When it is a cartoon set in a world in which a guy raising his magic sword (no imagery, there, no sir, not at all) turns him into a loincloth wearing barbarian hero with anatomically questionable levels of musculature, it is perhaps not really the show's fault that it bugged you on that point.  It isn't like it misled you about what it would contain, did it?

Moreover, would that have _improved_ the show for you if they did it?  They had seconds to talk about it, and it was going to destroy the world, but let's take some time to talk about _safety_?  Maybe as a genre-breaking joke that might work, I guess.  But that sounds more appropriate for a satire show, like, say Lower Decks, than for this.


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## Umbran (Jul 23, 2021)

Shroompunk Warlord said:


> ... but it was obviously aimed at middle-aged men (and women) who grew up with the original; this does raise some questions about the reasoning behind the female-led cast and sidelining of Adam, but I suspect honest inquiry would impossible at this point.




I kind of _liked_ those aspects of it.  I think they were clever ways to update and get around a few of the problems the original would have for a modern, older audience.


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## Morrus (Jul 23, 2021)

Umbran said:


> Sure.  And, I'm the sort that discussing the discussion is part of the enjoyment for me.
> 
> If the show's ostensibly a cooking competition, is its complete lack of dance content a valid point?  I guess I can't say you _shouldn't_ be bugged by lack of tango in the Great British Baking Show... but maybe if you are bugged by it, that's less about the show than it is about the viewer?
> 
> ...



Ummm. OK?


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## Morrus (Jul 23, 2021)

And I've finished all five episodes! I really quite liked it (and that comes from somebody who does not usually like animation).

I liked the ending, and I'm looking forward to the next season (assuming there is one). 

Setting it _after_ the original series rather than being a reboot of it was the right move, I think. 

So yep, minor niggles aside, thumbs up from me!


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## DammitVictor (Jul 23, 2021)

Oh, we're guaranteed more-- that was _part one_ of the first season, not the whole thing.


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## DammitVictor (Jul 23, 2021)

Umbran said:


> I kind of _liked_ those aspects of it.  I think they were clever ways to update and get around a few of the problems the original would have for a modern, older audience.




I don't have a problem with it, either, but it's alienating _a lot_ of very vocal people, and unless that _was_ the point, I don't see how it's benefiting them. The very obviously astroturfed 25% fan rating on Rotten Tomatoes _probably_ isn't doing them any favors.


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## Morrus (Jul 23, 2021)

Shroompunk Warlord said:


> I don't have a problem with it, either, but it's alienating _a lot_ of very vocal people, and unless that _was_ the point, I don't see how it's benefiting them. The very obviously astroturfed 25% fan rating on Rotten Tomatoes _probably_ isn't doing them any favors.



I think RT review bombing will ultimately hurt RT more than anyone else, unless they can get a handle on it. I suspect crowdsourced review scores there or anywhere else are going to go away in the next few years.


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## Umbran (Jul 23, 2021)

Shroompunk Warlord said:


> The very obviously astroturfed 25% fan rating on Rotten Tomatoes _probably_ isn't doing them any favors.




Whoof.  Yeah.  I think the 94% critics rating, 25% viewer rating, however, kind of tells that story pretty clearly.  

Though, to be honest, maybe it will do them favors.  Sure, there's a small vocal audience that's cheesed off.  But I think the _act_ of cheesing them off may actually be a draw to more middle-of-the-road folks.  Clear signal that he's not following the emotionally-vacuous male power fantasy may open more market than it closes.


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## Tonguez (Jul 24, 2021)

Umbran said:


> Whoof.  Yeah.  I think the 94% critics rating, 25% viewer rating, however, kind of tells that story pretty clearly.
> 
> Though, to be honest, maybe it will do them favors.  Sure, there's a small vocal audience that's cheesed off.  But I think the _act_ of cheesing them off may actually be a draw to more middle-of-the-road folks.  Clear signal that he's not following the emotionally-vacuous male power fantasy may open more market than it closes.



Hmm I’m not sure how Skeletor getting hold of the sword and becoming a god is any less male power fantasy than He-Man.
moreover Prince Adam is hardly a character that shouts male power fantasy either. While the death of He-Man was a fine starter, bringing Adam back and then ending on a gotcha twist was not a signal of anything other than Kevin Smiths self indulgence


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## Leatherhead (Jul 24, 2021)

I went in expecting something egregious and ended up watching "Elseworlds: What if He-Man died?"

The only problem I had was with Adam's second death. By that I mean the story beats lined up like he was going to lose the sword somehow (and get some character growth in the process), but just offing him with a sneaky backstab felt narratively unsatisfying. It was like giving someone the keys to a supercar and watching them sit around at the McDonalds drive through.


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## Henry (Jul 24, 2021)

Umbran said:


> Whoof.  Yeah.  I think the 94% critics rating, 25% viewer rating, however, kind of tells that story pretty clearly.
> 
> Though, to be honest, maybe it will do them favors.  Sure, there's a small vocal audience that's cheesed off.  But I think the _act_ of cheesing them off may actually be a draw to more middle-of-the-road folks.  Clear signal that he's not following the emotionally-vacuous male power fantasy may open more market than it closes.



I’ve seen the majority of negative reviews, at least on YouTube, it seems to be the usual crowd of “there’s no He-man! Teela’s the main character! This sucks!” with the majority seemingly having written their reviews based on trailers. I may think differently when I get to read more reasoned reviews from people like @Tonguez, which isn’t a hate-screed and actually calls out specific points they disliked. For now, though, I’m looking forward to getting the time to watch it.


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## hopeless (Jul 24, 2021)

The real problem is that the Teela show _could_ have worked if they wasn't so keen on shitting on the franchise in the process.
How?

1) Set it prior to Teel becoming Captain of the Guards make it a show set about her past growing up with Man At Arms as her adopted father and her efforts to find her place.
Let her get annoyed at Adam, but please remember she was already Captain of the Guard when He Man first appears in that series so there's no He Man and you could deal with Skeletor before he went all out villain and explain some of his past in the process.

2) Skeletor ambushes the Sorceress whilst she is outside the Castle and succeeds in mortally wounding her causing her to seal Castle Grayskull telling He Man to go into exile as the only means for the Castle to be reopened is using the Power Sword.
Adam is conflicted on this and upon trying to talk to his parents recognises the Sorceress is right so leaves despite Man At Arms trying to talk him out of it.
No one knows what happened to Prince Adam and He Man has disappeared.
King Randor orders Man at Arms to go looking for Adam after Man at Arms refuses to go after He Man effectively exiling him.
Teela leaves the guard in protest and begins her own quest this one originally her reflecting on her past as she goes on various adventures until she learns her father has returned with Prince Adam who ascends to the throne but refuses to marry any of the matches the court has assembled to produce a heir to succeed him.
Eventually Teela learns of a hero wandering the land who resembles He Man and eventually meets him discovering a burly late teen boy with a passing resemblance to Adam carrying his father's sword.
She's shocked when the boy draws the blade and calling upon the powers of Castle Grayskull becomes He-Man!
She's even more shocked when they reach the palace and Adam secretly comes out to meet them greeting his son and explains what has really been going on.
Skeletor learning of what he assumes is a pretender has been largely sending minions to deal with the upstart, but his arrival at the city leads him to directly confront him discovering his old nemesis He Man has returned...

3) The Unnamed One appears attempting to steal the power sword Orko manages to fend him off as we learn of his true past and how his sister was supposed to be here in his place but the Unnamed One killed her and forced to intervene Orko took her place knowing he lacked any of her training but it was the only way to prevent the Unnamed One from reaching Eternia before they could protect the current wielder of the sword.
Having to face up to the truth Orko explains to the Masters what is actually going on and with their help perhaps finally end the threat the conqueror of his people poses to Eternia...

Any of these are MUCH better than what they went with and if I can come up with these you can bet much more hard core fans can do even BETTER!


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## Morrus (Jul 24, 2021)

Tonguez said:


> bringing Adam back and then ending on a gotcha twist was not a signal of anything other than Kevin’s Smith self indulgence



What does that even mean?


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## Morrus (Jul 24, 2021)

hopeless said:


> Any of these are MUCH better than what they went with and if I can come up with these you can bet much more hard core fans can do even BETTER!



You don’t get to review your own work!


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## hopeless (Jul 24, 2021)

Morrus said:


> You don’t get to review your own work!



So we're not allowed to criticise them when they screw up THAT badly then?


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## Tonguez (Jul 24, 2021)

Morrus said:


> What does that even mean?




In the Preternia episode we learn from King Grayskull that all the Champions in Preternia get to choose their eternal forms and that Adam is the only one who has ever chosen to remain as his mundane self rather than his heroic form. It suggest that Prince Adam sees that as his ‘true self’ - and implicitly Adams relationship with _best friend_ Teela is significant to his true identity. Also implicit is that Adam has for years had the emotional strength to endure his fathers ongoing disappointment in Him, while he has silently carried the responsibility of the He-Man role.
SMith then presents Adam the choice of remianing in the Paradise of Preternia or returning to Eternia but never being able to return to paradise. The choice is made, despite Teela disowning him, Adam chooses to abandon paradise and follow her. As an audience we are teased with a heroic homecoming and a chance for a mature consideration of Who is Adam? What does his dual nature as Adam/He-Man actually mean moving forward, both in relation to Teela and the long years of disappointment carried by King Randor and the guilt that comes from realising that his son wasnt an irresponsible layabout at all.  Part 2 could actually be engaging.

But nope, Kevin Smith in the after show gloats about how cool it is that he killed Prince Adam twice! Woohoo, gotcha! like its some profound feat of genius.
Really? Instead of an exploration of character relationships we now have Skeletor as a hyperpowered god-tier villain, Triclopes leading a machine cult worshiping the Sacred Motherboard (who?) and the Heroic Warriors no better off than they were in episode one.


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## Morrus (Jul 24, 2021)

Tonguez said:


> But nope,[/ISPOILER] Kevin Smith in the after show gloats about how cool it is that he killed Prince Adam twice! Woohoo, gotcha! like its some profound feat of genius.




Where is that after show, BTW? I think I'd be interested in his take on it.


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## Morrus (Jul 24, 2021)

hopeless said:


> So we're not allowed to criticise them when they screw up THAT badly then?



There's a difference between criticizing a body of work and reviewing your own work. Present your ideas and let others be the judge of whether they're better. You don't get to _tell_ us your ideas are good. We'll tell you.

I mean, if reviewing your own work was valid, I wouldn't complain. All my books would have amazing five-star reviews!


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## Mind of tempest (Jul 24, 2021)

Morrus said:


> And I've finished all five episodes! I really quite liked it (and that comes from somebody who does not usually like animation).
> 
> I liked the ending, and I'm looking forward to the next season (assuming there is one).
> 
> ...



is it worth watching for a guy who knows only the basics, they only had classic transformer reruns never he man.


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## Morrus (Jul 24, 2021)

Mind of tempest said:


> is it worth watching for a guy who knows only the basics, they only had classic transformer reruns never he man.



Dunno.


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## Older Beholder (Jul 24, 2021)

I really liked it. 
I thought it would be more Kevin Smith-y, so I was surprised to get depth and story with my nostalgia trip. I’m looking forward to the second half.


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## Tonguez (Jul 24, 2021)

Mind of tempest said:


> is it worth watching for a guy who knows only the basics, they only had classic transformer reruns never he man.



I’d actually be really interested in the perspective of someone unfamiliar with the previous story. Its an okay story and I did wonder to myself if viewing it as a stand alone narrative would make it better


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## Zardnaar (Jul 24, 2021)

In not overly familiar with the previous story. I had a few if the toys intbe 80's and the half remembered pack in comics. 

 Was planning on watching it soon just sidetracked with 10 seasons of Taskmaster.


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## hopeless (Jul 24, 2021)

Morrus said:


> There's a difference between criticizing a body of work and reviewing your own work. Present your ideas and let others be the judge of whether they're better. You don't get to _tell_ us your ideas are good. We'll tell you.
> 
> I mean, if reviewing your own work was valid, I wouldn't complain. All my books would have amazing five-star reviews!



If you paid attention to the point you'd understand I wasn't reviewing my own work but pointing out ways that series could have actually being better and even emphasising that fact by pointing out I'm NOT a hardcore fan of He Man but I still care enough to TRY to come up with something that works.

As I stated this is what I can come up with, these people if they had any clue about the franchise they were making use of SHOULD have done FAR better.

So incredible animation, a great cast, but a crap script.

THAT was the point.


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## Morrus (Jul 24, 2021)

hopeless said:


> If you paid attention to the point you'd understand I wasn't reviewing my own work but pointing out ways that series could have actually being better and even emphasising that fact by pointing out I'm NOT a hardcore fan of He Man but I still care enough to TRY to come up with something that works.
> 
> As I stated this is what I can come up with, these people if they had any clue about the franchise they were making use of SHOULD have done FAR better.
> 
> ...



You presented your ideas and then unilaterally declared them better than those in the show. That is, indeed, reviewing your own work. I’m saying its for others to decide if your ideas are better. Maybe they are, maybe they aren’t — but that’s not your call, any more than it’s Kevin Smith’s. I mean, _I_ don’t think they’re better, but I’m just one voice.


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## Rune (Jul 24, 2021)

Tonguez said:


> Hmm I’m not sure how Skeletor getting hold of the sword and becoming a god is any less male power fantasy than He-Man.
> moreover Prince Adam is hardly a character that shouts male power fantasy either. While the death of He-Man was a fine starter, bringing Adam back and then ending on a gotcha twist was not a signal of anything other than Kevin Smiths self indulgence



Gotcha twist? Marvel just used that same move 3 times in Loki (if you include the reshown Avengers footage of Loki killing Coulson).

Seems like a trope on its own by now. Sure, it subverts what the audience is expecting based on previous story beats, but it also does a fine job of re-establishing the villain as a threat. Which, in this case was necessary, because the villain had been hiding/biding his time and presumed dead.

Will it pan out? We’ll have to wait for part 2 to know that. I know this: If I pulled that move as a DM, it would be epic!


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## hopeless (Jul 24, 2021)

N


Morrus said:


> You presented your ideas and then unilaterally declared them better than those in the show. That is, indeed, reviewing your own work. I’m saying its for others to decide if your ideas are better. Maybe they are, maybe they aren’t — but that’s not your call, any more than it’s Kevin Smith’s. I mean, _I_ don’t think they’re better, but I’m just one voice.



No I didn't I pointed out three examples that someone who isn't a hardcore fan could do with that setting and pointed out had they been actually conversant with the setting it should have been impossible to screw up that badly.
You are complaining rather than discussing the series.
Do you have argument that presents what they released in a light that isn't as dreadful?
All you've done is try to claim I can do better than them as if this is some kind of contest.
It's not I'm discussing this series and hoped someone could demonstrate just how much better this could have been had they not been so vocal when news about this series was leaked.


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## Morrus (Jul 24, 2021)

hopeless said:


> Any of these are MUCH better than what they went with and if I can come up with these you can bet much more hard core fans can do even BETTER!





Morrus said:


> You presented your ideas and then unilaterally declared them better than those in the show.





hopeless said:


> No I didn't



I mean, if you're just gonna gaslight me, I'll leave you to it.


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## hopeless (Jul 24, 2021)

Morrus said:


> I mean, if you're just gonna gaslight me, I'll leave you to it.



No I didn't you could have defended your position, but you didn't.
The only one gas lighting is you perhaps you should send me the details how to permanently unsubscribe myself if your intent is to turn this into an echo chamber instead of a discussion forum?


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## Umbran (Jul 24, 2021)

hopeless said:


> No I didn't you could have defended your position, but you didn't.
> The only one gas lighting is you perhaps you should send me the details how to permanently unsubscribe myself if your intent is to turn this into an echo chamber instead of a discussion forum?



*Mod Note:*
1) Yes, you are gaslighting him.  Just a few posts ago you DID unilaterally announce your versions would be better, and then denied that you announced such.

2) He does not require an echo chamber.  Heck, I disagreed with him in this very thread!  What he requires is that you not be combative or act like a jerk in the process of disagreeing.

Folks can get passionate about stories, which is good.  We require that they not take those passions out _on each other_.  Since that doesn't seem to be in the cards here, you can go find some other thread that doesn't bring this out in you.


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## Deathmaster Banak (Jul 24, 2021)

Morrus said:


> I think RT review bombing will ultimately hurt RT more than anyone else.



Review bombing! Or perhaps many fans really dislike it, but I suppose calling it this is a quick and easy way of dismissing their voices.


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## Tonguez (Jul 24, 2021)

Rune said:


> Gotcha twist? Marvel just used that same move 3 times in Loki (if you include the reshown Avengers footage of Loki killing Coulson).
> 
> Seems like a trope on its own by now. Sure, it subverts what the audience is expecting based on previous story beats, but it also does a fine job of re-establishing the villain as a threat. Which, in this case was necessary, because the villain had been hiding/biding his time and presumed dead.
> 
> Will it pan out? We’ll have to wait for part 2 to know that. I know this: If I pulled that move as a DM, it would be epic!



3 times? The Coulson scene happened 10 years ago, not twice in a 2 hour run and not as both the opening and ending stakes of the story arc. Having Teela rescue Adam was a nice story, having the rescue snatched away is unsatisfying, then saying oh but he'll be back by the end of Part 2 just makes it cheap. Particularly when Smith outright states he wanted to have characters die to raise the stakes

But yeah I suppose Coulson did die 7 or 8 times over the course of the Agents of Shield, so maybe the trope is more important than hammering those stakes ...


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## Blue (Jul 24, 2021)

Yora said:


> Just don't do reboots. Of anything. Ever.
> 
> I've not seen it work even once.



Check out the new She-Ra.  Far superior to the original.


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## Morrus (Jul 24, 2021)

Deathmaster Banak said:


> Review bombing! Or perhaps many fans really dislike it, but I suppose calling it this is a quick and easy way of dismissing their voices.



OK, folks, this thread is  - ridiculously, given the subject matter - in imminent danger of getting closed because for some reasons it's giving rise to some _really_ bad behavior. The absurd hyperbole, gaslighting, and insults are not acceptable. Let me remind you that you're talking about a cartoon, and if you can't do that civilly and in good faith, don't do it at all; and if you can't refrain voluntarily, we'll help you. My patience is running a little thin. I hope I've made myself clear.


----------



## Rune (Jul 24, 2021)

Tonguez said:


> 3 times? The Coulson scene happened 10 years ago, not twice in a 2 hour run and not as both the opening and ending stakes of the story arc. Having Teela rescue Adam was a nice story, having the rescue snatched away is unsatisfying, then saying oh but he'll be back by the end of Part 2 just makes it cheap. Particularly when Smith outright states he wanted to have characters die to raise the stakes
> 
> But yeah I suppose Coulson did die 7 or 8 times over the course of the Agents of Shield, so maybe the trope is more important than hammering those stakes ...



What makes you think Adam will be back by the end of part 2? I agree he _might_ but I didn’t see any evidence that suggested it. I only watched it once, though. Maybe I missed something?


----------



## Delazar (Jul 24, 2021)

Rune said:


> What makes you think Adam will be back by the end of part 2? I agree he _might_ but I didn’t see any evidence that suggested it. I only watched it once, though. Maybe I missed something?



The wound was clearly non-lethal (for heroes). It wasn’t through the chest, it was kinda lower right abdomen. I think he’s coming back.

btw, loved the show, but indeed I would have liked to see more of He-man, and less of angsty Teela. Crossing fingers for Part 2.


----------



## MoonSong (Jul 24, 2021)

Ok, I'll be quick. I was never in the market for this show. He-man is just not on my time -though I have vague memories of New Adventures-  and I've never been in the market for the toys -for the longest time I didn't even know there were toys-. However, after witnessing some of the internet drama -which includes all of the usual suspects- I was even less interested. Then I saw the review by Scott -I selfinserted into the franchise - Neitlich and he was very excited and gleeful for it. I decided I need to see it if someone who was both passionate and self-restrained praised it. And I'll eventually get to it. I'll probably like it, or not. But I lack baggage, I'm not passionate about this, so any response I have to it will be moderate. (Though the minis and the megablocks figures look interesting)

Now I think that -regardless of the show actual quality, which is a suspended judgement until I watch it for myself- the show pushes the right buttons for a lot of people, but at the same time it doesn't for other people -and I'm not talking about the usual suspects-. Both groups are fans but for different reasons, some seem to be on it for the wide pool of characters and the lore and have kept up with all of the expanded universe and love this. Others just wanted more He-man and won't be pleased by anything but more He-man. They aren't wrong, they just thought this show was specifically for them and feel betrayed and are lashing out?(I mean, the marketing was a bit missaimed?) There is too much of "it is good but..." around to just be the usual suspects.


----------



## Tonguez (Jul 24, 2021)

Rune said:


> What makes you think Adam will be back by the end of part 2? I agree he _might_ but I didn’t see any evidence that suggested it. I only watched it once, though. Maybe I missed something?



ah sorry, that impression came from a comment in the after show which is also on Netflix and in my version at least played directly after Ep. 5. Its hosted by the Andra actress, Kevin Smith and Matell TV guy, and features Kevin smiths self congratulations (so yeah he kinda does review himself) and then comments from each actor.


----------



## Tonguez (Jul 24, 2021)

MoonSong said:


> Now I think that -regardless of the show actual quality, which is a suspended judgement until I watch it for myself- the show pushes the right buttons for a lot of people, but at the same time it doesn't for other people -and I'm not talking about the usual suspects-. Both groups are fans but for different reasons, some seem to be on it for the wide pool of characters and the lore and have kept up with all of the expanded universe and love this. Others just wanted more He-man and won't be pleased by anything but more He-man. They aren't wrong, they just thought this show was specifically for them and feel betrayed and are lashing out?(I mean, the marketing was a bit missaimed?) There is too much of "it is good but..." around to just be the usual suspects.



Its not that though, the truth is Masters of the Universe has never _needed_ He-Man, he's deus ex machina and the other Heroic Warriors _including Teela_ and Adam were always more interesting, and a story that explored those characters and their relationships in a world without HeMan would be cool, we might get that for Part 2, but who knows.

While Revelations does have some nice cameos like Whiplash and Stinkor and the Tri-clops' weird tech cult, practically all the core Heroic Warriors are sidelined. I beleive we get an Episode 1 scene with Fisto and Clamp Champ(?) but thats it - I didnt see Stratos, Ram-man, Mechanek or any other Heroic Warrior.  That leaves the protagonist team strangely small, Andra fades into obscurity after episode 2 and Duncan is sent back to Grayskull leaving Roboto as a poor chekov'd stand-in. While episode 4 gives Orko a nice character moment as we learn his true name and see some of his hidden potential, pairing him with Evil Lynn was odd. It also leaves Teela isolated being all Mary sue in confronting Scareglow....

Part 2 might be redemptive


----------



## Rune (Jul 24, 2021)

Tonguez said:


> ah sorry, that impression came from a comment in the after show which is also on Netflix and in my version at least played directly after Ep. 5. Its hosted by the Andra actress, Kevin Smith and Matell TV guy, and features Kevin smiths self congratulations (so yeah he kinda does review himself) and then comments from each actor.



I did not get that impression from that after-show. But, also, Kevin Smith tends to speak off the cuff when he’s off-script (as he clearly was in that after-show), so I don’t read too much into his exact words. 

What was evident is that he was _clearly_ excited about the show (and _finally_ being able to talk about it). That kind of genuine excitement for geek stuff (his own _and_ others) is characteristic of him and unusual for most people with his degree of fame. 

Ironically, I think it’s the thing that Internet/You Tube Kevin Smith Haters hate most about him, although I really don’t understand why. (I’m beginning to form a hypothesis, but that’s not related to this discussion.)

To bring it back around, though, I expect Marc Bernarden would talk him out of undercutting the established stakes for Adam while he was in the writer’s room (Bernarden is _real_ big on following through with stakes – and he’s _much_ more critical of story-telling, too). I don’t think it necessarily means Adam stays dead, but it might.


----------



## Henry (Jul 24, 2021)

I've now watched 3 of 5, planning to finish tomorrow. I'm liking it so far, and getting a laugh out of the in-jokes ("sorry about the mess", etc). It wouldn't be a Kevin Smith project without some Lucasfilm references thrown in.


----------



## Ath-kethin (Jul 25, 2021)

I had a ton of the toys in the early-mid 80s but never watched the show. My 7yo and I watched the new one yesterday and we thought it absolutely ruled. It was funny, it was dramatic, it had strong characters, and it didn't pander. The language was a little coarse in places but nothing horrible (after all, the kid has heard worse from me).

I can see a couple of plot developments coming, and it will be interesting to see if they at out the way I expect. We look forward to the next 5 episodes.


----------



## Hussar (Jul 25, 2021)

I'm also in the boat of knowing practically nothing about any sort of canon material of the show.  I vaguely remember watching the old He-man toy adve... I mean cartoons back in the day, but, did they even have a plot back then?  25 minute toy ads is basically all I remember.  

So, watching this now, I'm totally lost when people start throwing out all these names and stuff... There really was a character named Fisto?  Seriously?


----------



## Blue Orange (Jul 25, 2021)

The Lizard Wizard said:


> I really liked it.
> I thought it would be more Kevin Smith-y, so I was surprised to get depth and story with my nostalgia trip. I’m looking forward to the second half.




Jay and Silent Bob in Eternia would be a fun outtake.


----------



## Older Beholder (Jul 25, 2021)

Blue Orange said:


> Jay and Silent Bob in Eternia would be a fun outtake.




When looking up the voice actors I noticed Jason Mewes was the voice of Stinkor


----------



## wicked cool (Jul 25, 2021)

It’s 2 bad he lied and seems to be intent on destruction of another show. Why not just be honest and stand behind your work


----------



## Stalker0 (Jul 25, 2021)

Finished the season. It was … fine enough, I feel like it’s a bit in the middle ground of too involved for kids but too simple for adults.

Orko was the highlight for me, thst was the best part of the show.

So a question, is it ever explained in the original show why all these other people know He-mans secret, but Tesla can’t?


----------



## Hussar (Jul 25, 2021)

wicked cool said:


> It’s 2 bad he lied and seems to be intent on destruction of another show. Why not just be honest and stand behind your work



I'm going to be sorry I did this but curiosity has the better of me.

What did he lie about?


----------



## DammitVictor (Jul 25, 2021)

Hussar said:


> So, watching this now, I'm totally lost when people start throwing out all these names and stuff... There really was a character named Fisto?  Seriously?



He tried his best, but he couldn't fist them all.


----------



## DammitVictor (Jul 25, 2021)

Stalker0 said:


> So a question, is it ever explained in the original show why all these other people know He-mans secret, but Tesla can’t?



Poorly. It's general opsec. The only people who were ever _supposed to know_ were Adam himself, Duncan, and the Sorceress. Orko watched it all happen and was going to _tell everyone_ before Duncan swore him to secrecy. And Cringer, obviously.

Marlena never _explicitly_ admitted she knew. But when Faker held the entire royal family captive, she escaped first and used the opportunity to _free Adam_-- her useless, foppish princeling-- instead of Duncan, or Teela, or even Randor. At the end of the episode, when he's transformed back to Adam... he asks her why she'd do such a thing. Her response was, "A mother always knows her son, Adam. Always."

Marlena's a very low-key badass. There's a reason she's going to be my first _Legends of Grayskull_ character.


----------



## Stalker0 (Jul 25, 2021)

Shroompunk Warlord said:


> Marlena's a very low-key badass. There's a reason she's going to be my first _Legends of Grayskull_ character.



One of the few episodes I remember from the original cartoon was a mysterious pilot that saved everyone. It was then revealed that the queen was a combat pilot on earth that found her way to eternia.

that was pretty cool


----------



## DammitVictor (Jul 25, 2021)

Stalker0 said:


> One of the few episodes I remember from the original cartoon was a mysterious pilot that saved everyone. It was then revealed that the queen was a combat pilot on earth that found her way to eternia.
> 
> that was pretty cool



Four years before any woman had been to outer space in real life.


----------



## Tonguez (Jul 25, 2021)

Stalker0 said:


> One of the few episodes I remember from the original cartoon was a mysterious pilot that saved everyone. It was then revealed that the queen was a combat pilot on earth that found her way to eternia.
> 
> that was pretty cool



Pilot and Astronaut Marlena Glenn who was in a one-person mission to Europa but was knocked off course landing on Eternia.
The idea of her being from Earth was introduced to explain why He-Man was familiar with Superman when the two had a DC comics cross-over (Marlena use to tell her son Adam stories about Superman). Her badassery was later expanded in Teelas Quest and Visitors from Earth (when more earth Astronauts arrive).  Masters of the Universe may well have started as a glorified toy advert but its also notable for having some prominent female characters and for covering reasonably topical issues - and tying them up with a nice moral


Hussar said:


> .
> So, watching this now, I'm totally lost when people start throwing out all these names and stuff... There really was a character named Fisto?  Seriously?




Yes, the show had its fair share of terrible monikers. 
Fisto had a giant prosthetic fist which granted super strength and made him the Master of Hand-to-Hand combat. Its implied that he may be Man-at-Arms brother and may have been the amnesiac warrior who the Scorceress fell in love with when she was younger.


----------



## fba827 (Jul 25, 2021)

It was decent enough.  I enjoyed some of the throw away references like…. There was a throw away line of dialogue between Tesla and Lyn during episode 3 I think it was.  They were on the ship and they make reference to having been there before, that was a reference to one of the original episodes when Lyn and Tesla were stranded there and had to ‘learn to work together’ to make the journey out of there ;-).  

some of the plot beats felt overly simplistic , but I wasn’t expecting something with deep thought I guess.


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## Hussar (Jul 25, 2021)

Tonguez said:


> Fisto had a giant prosthetic fist which granted super strength and made him the Master of Hand-to-Hand combat. Its implied that he may be Man-at-Arms brother and may have been the amnesiac warrior who the Scorceress fell in love with when she was younger.



That... is not better.


----------



## MarkB (Jul 25, 2021)

I haven't watched the aftershow, but my impression from the end of the final episode was not that Adam was definitely dead-for-real. He was stabbed through the abdomen and collapsed, but we didn't see him die, and there's no way a character like that goes out without some last words.

My only real issue with the show was just how much Mark Hamill was channelling the Joker in his performance as Skeletor. Seriously, you could reskin the animation and drop his lines into any Batman Animated episode and nobody would notice the difference.


----------



## wicked cool (Jul 25, 2021)

Hussar said:


> I'm going to be sorry I did this but curiosity has the better of me.
> 
> What did he lie about?



There was some sort of news outlet that broke the news that he was going to kill heman  and basically replace him. He sent out his followers to destroy the story/outlet. Turns out it was true


----------



## Bedrockgames (Jul 25, 2021)

I opened this thread fully expecting to roll my eyes at new handling of old media, but burning old he man characters alive sounds awesome to me. I was into he man at 8, and not interested in kids cartoons anymore but this sounds more like adult viewing


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## wicked cool (Jul 25, 2021)

Hussar said:


> I'm going to be sorry I did this but curiosity has the better of me.
> 
> What did he lie about?



Also he lied that all the strong men characters would not be eliminated. Not even a secondary character. It’s basically Teelas show. Follow Kevin smiths Twitter. He went after almost everyone that criticized his show


----------



## a.everett1287 (Jul 25, 2021)

hopeless said:


> So we're not allowed to criticise them when they screw up THAT badly then?



All of your ideas were terrible, though. This iteration was so much better than that.



wicked cool said:


> Also he lied that all the strong men characters would not be eliminated. Not even a secondary character. It’s basically Teelas show. Follow Kevin smiths Twitter. He went after almost everyone that criticized his show



This response was just as godawful as we all assumed it was going to be. 

More on-topic, I watched the pilot, I was a sorta-fan of He-Man back in the day, and I thought this was pretty good.


----------



## DammitVictor (Jul 25, 2021)

a.everett1287 said:


> More on-topic, I watched the pilot, I was a sorta-fan of He-Man back in the day, and I thought this was pretty good.



I'm a hardcore, lifelong fan of _Masters of the Universe_... and I loved this show. Not as much as some other MOTU media, but more than others.

But... leaving the astroturf aside, I'm hearing more than a few other hardcore, lifelong fans who've _seen the show_ and who've _seen the previous shows_ saying they're pretty pissed. And, you know, I _sympathize_.


----------



## RangerWickett (Jul 25, 2021)

I mean, it's a kid's show. I thought it was fun, treading that nice line of embracing all the ridiculousness of the setting with earnest enthusiasm without being campy. For what it was, there were bits of halfway decent characterization. If this sort of stuff happened in a D&D game we'd probably be thrilled with it.

I don't bat an eye at the big twist. Like, did none of y'all nostalgic fans ever watch the Transformers cartoon movie where they killed off literally every original character except Bumblebee and the Dinobots, because that way they could sell new toys?


----------



## MoonSong (Jul 25, 2021)

RangerWickett said:


> I mean, it's a kid's show. I thought it was fun, treading that nice line of embracing all the ridiculousness of the setting with earnest enthusiasm without being campy. For what it was, there were bits of halfway decent characterization. If this sort of stuff happened in a D&D game we'd probably be thrilled with it.
> 
> I don't bat an eye at the big twist. Like, did none of y'all nostalgic fans ever watch the Transformers cartoon movie where they killed off literally every original character except Bumblebee and the Dinobots, because that way they could sell new toys?



I thought that movie had traumatized a whole generation?


----------



## UngainlyTitan (Jul 25, 2021)

I watched and enjoyed but not a fan of the old show. Did think it was aimed at the nostalgia audience not current teens. It could have done with a few more episode for character development. I would watch another season if one turns up.


----------



## Rune (Jul 25, 2021)

ardoughter said:


> I watched and enjoyed but not a fan of the old show. Did think it was aimed at the nostalgia audience not current teens. It could have done with a few more episode for character development. I would watch another season if one turns up.



That was only the first half of the season. The second half is finished, but Netflix decided to divide it in half and stagger it’s release.


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## MarkB (Jul 25, 2021)

Rune said:


> That was only the first half of the season. The second half is finished, but Netflix decided to divide it in half and stagger it’s release.



It does feel like it was structured to suit such a release schedule.


----------



## Deathmaster Banak (Jul 25, 2021)

Morrus said:


> OK, folks, this thread is  - ridiculously, given the subject matter - in imminent danger of getting closed because for some reasons it's giving rise to some _really_ bad behavior. The absurd hyperbole, gaslighting, and insults are not acceptable. Let me remind you that you're talking about a cartoon, and if you can't do that civilly and in good faith, don't do it at all; and if you can't refrain voluntarily, we'll help you. My patience is running a little thin. I hope I've made myself clear.



So does that mean pejorative terms like review bombing won't be used in the future? After all it is an insult to those who watched the show and genuinely didn't like it.


----------



## Morrus (Jul 25, 2021)

Deathmaster Banak said:


> So does that mean pejorative terms like review bombing won't be used in the future? After all it is an insult to those who watched the show and genuinely didn't like it.



Do not discuss moderation in-thread. If you need a refresher on the rules, there’s a link to them on every page.


----------



## Ath-kethin (Jul 25, 2021)

MarkB said:


> It does feel like it was structured to suit such a release schedule.



It absolutely feels like it is set up for the split release. Which means the writers/producers probably knew the plan and accounted for it.

I was really impressed with the show, and I'll definitely catch the second half of this season and any further episodes they make. It's very much my style of D&D campaign: throw in everything, embrace the silliness, and don't be afraid to go really dark on occasion. 

The language was a little coarser that. I generally see in my game, but in fairness one of my players is my 7yo so I think it's understandable.


----------



## DammitVictor (Jul 26, 2021)

"Review bombing" isn't a pejorative term. If someone watched the show and didn't like it, their 1 negative review isn't less valid because of the 10,000 people who gave it negative reviews, sight unseen, because half a dozen YouTube channels that receive funding from right-wing think tanks told them to.

Look, I gave the show an 8, not a 10. And that translates into understanding how someone can easily have given it a 6, or even a 4, based on feeling more strongly about the show's problems than I did or _having a problem_ with factors I didn't have a problem with at all. Any single review who tries to claim it's a 1 out of 10 is a single bootlicking troll; any 1,000 reviews who try to claim it's a 1 out of 10 is still, probably, just a _single_ bootlicking troll.


----------



## Older Beholder (Jul 26, 2021)

wicked cool said:


> There was some sort of news outlet that broke the news that he was going to kill heman  and basically replace him. He sent out his followers to destroy the story/outlet. Turns out it was true



So he tried to stop someone breaking a review embargo? 



wicked cool said:


> Also he lied that all the strong men characters would not be eliminated. Not even a secondary character. It’s basically Teelas show. Follow Kevin smiths Twitter. He went after almost everyone that criticized his show



He Man was in every episode so far. He's sacrificed his life to save Eternia, and thrown away heaven to come back and save the Universe again. (and we're only half way through the season) Seems like he's still the hero of the show to me.


----------



## DammitVictor (Jul 26, 2021)

The Lizard Wizard said:


> He Man was in every episode so far. He's sacrificed his life to save Eternia, and thrown away heaven to come back and save the Universe again. (and we're only half way through the season) Seems like he's still the hero of the show to me.



Dan Slott's _Superior Spider-Man_ was possibly the greatest love letter to Peter Parker in comics history _because_ of how keenly Slott made Parker's absence felt in every single issue. It ran for far longer than anyone had expected or planned for, because the audience (mostly) loved it, but when Peter Parker eventually and inevitably returned... it made his return all the more triumphant.


----------



## Blue Orange (Jul 26, 2021)

MoonSong said:


> I thought that movie had traumatized a whole generation?




I don't know about 'traumatized'.

I was very upset when I watched Optimus Prime die at the age of 7. In 1986 nobody was allowed to die in a children's show. It was probably the worst thing that had happened to me at that age (yes, I had a very sheltered childhood). In retrospect it was probably a good thing in that it taught me (in a small, silly-in-retrospect way) that life doesn't always work out the way you want.

Life involves tragedy. Art (even of the popular, declasse variety) can help prepare you for that.


----------



## Zardnaar (Jul 26, 2021)

Shroompunk Warlord said:


> "Review bombing" isn't a pejorative term. If someone watched the show and didn't like it, their 1 negative review isn't less valid because of the 10,000 people who gave it negative reviews, sight unseen, because half a dozen YouTube channels that receive funding from right-wing think tanks told them to.
> 
> Look, I gave the show an 8, not a 10. And that translates into understanding how someone can easily have given it a 6, or even a 4, based on feeling more strongly about the show's problems than I did or _having a problem_ with factors I didn't have a problem with at all. Any single review who tries to claim it's a 1 out of 10 is a single bootlicking troll; any 1,000 reviews who try to claim it's a 1 out of 10 is still, probably, just a _single_ bootlicking troll.




 Yeah has to be very very bad to get 1/10 imho.


----------



## doctorbadwolf (Jul 26, 2021)

Yora said:


> Just don't do reboots. Of anything. Ever.
> 
> I've not seen it work even once.



TMNT (multiple times), She-Ra, My Little Pony, Thundercats, just off the top of my head, are all excellent reboots.


----------



## Stalker0 (Jul 26, 2021)

And frankly this isn’t a reboot to me, it’s honestly more of a sequel


----------



## Morrus (Jul 26, 2021)

Stalker0 said:


> And frankly this isn’t a reboot to me, it’s honestly more of a sequel



I don’t think that’s in any question. It’s exactly a sequel.


----------



## MoonSong (Jul 26, 2021)

Morrus said:


> I don’t think that’s in any question. It’s exactly a sequel.



Not legally.


----------



## Morrus (Jul 27, 2021)

MoonSong said:


> Not legally.



I don’t know how something is legally or not legally a sequel? I’ve never heard of a legal definition of a sequel.


----------



## MoonSong (Jul 27, 2021)

Morrus said:


> I don’t know how something is legally or not legally a sequel? I’ve never heard of a legal definition of a sequel.



It is complicated. Universal owns the franchise, but they don't own the Classic series. Universal can make or license new content, as long as it is based on the toys, the comics and the media they actually own. To do a sequel to the classic series, they need to also license from whoever owns the rights to the Filmation series, because they don't own it. The legal mangle that is the franchise also means that there can't be any series in the future that feature both She-Ra and He-Man. Because these were sold off separately.


----------



## Tonguez (Jul 27, 2021)

The Lizard Wizard said:


> So he tried to stop someone breaking a review embargo?



It wasnt a review though, it was an opinion peice giving some predictions - those predictions were vehemently criticised by Smith but have now generally been proven accurate. The great irony of course is that if Kevin Smith had ignored them, then its most likely that _most_ people wouldnt even know who they were or what they had said.

The whole thing highlights issues in the relationship between Creatives and Audience and the nature of influence in the Social Media age.


----------



## Maxperson (Jul 27, 2021)

I just watched the He-Man episodes and I really enjoyed them.  I didn't expect as much death as happened, and I have to say I expected quite a bit more He-Man in a He-Man series than I got.  It IS the first half of the season, though, so I suppose more He-Man is coming.


----------



## Morrus (Jul 27, 2021)

MoonSong said:


> It is complicated. Universal owns the franchise, but they don't own the Classic series. Universal can make or license new content, as long as it is based on the toys, the comics and the media they actually own. To do a sequel to the classic series, they need to also license from whoever owns the rights to the Filmation series, because they don't own it. The legal mangle that is the franchise also means that there can't be any series in the future that feature both She-Ra and He-Man. Because these were sold off separately.



That's not really what 'sequel' means though. All a sequel is is something set after the original, which this is. I could write a sequel (I mean I'd probably get sued for copyright infringement, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be a sequel).


----------



## MarkB (Jul 27, 2021)

Maxperson said:


> I just watched the He-Man episodes and I really enjoyed them.  I didn't expect as much death as happened, and I have to say I expected quite a bit more He-Man in a He-Man series than I got.  It IS the first half of the season, though, so I suppose more He-Man is coming.



Well, it's a Masters of the Universe series. He-Man doesn't make the title in this one.


----------



## ehren37 (Jul 27, 2021)

I overall liked it, despite really disliking Teela's character. I'm never a fan of the "I'm entitled to your secrets" trope (see also Amber in Invincible), and the first thing she does when she meets him in the afterlife (after he died saving the world) is continue berating him. Evil Lyn was awesome though, they even made me like freakin Orko!

Hamil seemed phoning it in as Skeletor though. He was way too similar to Joker, particularly the Skeletor/Evil Lyn dynamic. Would have loved some more Beast Man to see why he was so loyal to Lyn. Maybe he's the Platonic form of the loyal goon?

If Smith really killed Adam the second time he's a moron. There's a lot to explore with learning who Adam is without He-Man, including his desire to appear in his true form rather than the empowered form, etc. People are right to feel lied to though, and a He-Man show with (effectively) no He-Man feels calculated to "own the right" in a cheap move, disregarding what fans of the original may want.


----------



## Maxperson (Jul 27, 2021)

MarkB said:


> Well, it's a Masters of the Universe series. He-Man doesn't make the title in this one.



I'm pretty sure this show is primarily about He-Man.


----------



## Bagpuss (Jul 27, 2021)

Maxperson said:


> I'm pretty sure this show is primarily about He-Man.



Someone hasn't watched it. (Joke)

I mean it's primarily about He-Man like Green Lantern is primarily about Alexandra DeWitt.


----------



## GMforPowergamers (Jul 28, 2021)

It was fun, I like a lot of it. It ISNT really a sequel it is a reimagining (by changing things like orko it changes the old stories) However I had fun.

I would have preferred if they had advertised it as it was "a kevin smith reimagining"


----------



## MoonSong (Jul 28, 2021)

Morrus said:


> That's not really what 'sequel' means though. All a sequel is is something set after the original, which this is. I could write a sequel (I mean I'd probably get sued for copyright infringement, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be a sequel).



You and I could do a fanfic or a fan comic, or even a fan-vid sequel and get away with it by virtue of being low profile individuals. But these are big corporations.

Since Universal isn't the owner of the classic series, they can't legally make a derivative work (all sequels are derivative works) of it.


----------



## Morrus (Jul 28, 2021)

MoonSong said:


> You and I could do a fanfic or a fan comic, or even a fan-vid sequel and get away with it by virtue of being low profile individuals. But these are big corporations.
> 
> Since Universal isn't the owner of the classic series, they can't legally make a derivative work (all sequels are derivative works) of it.



I think we're talking about two entirely different things. Never mind.


----------



## Mallus (Jul 28, 2021)

My thoughts?

Kevin Smith saved his most emotionally mature writing for a He-Man sequel because of course he did.

Was not prepared for how poignant this joint was. At all.

Still processing the ending. Not happy about Evil-Lyn backsliding after her breakthrough with Orko. But she can't stay evil, right? Not after Skeletor explicitly stating she wasn't in on his plan.


----------



## Henry (Jul 29, 2021)

ehren37 said:


> I overall liked it, despite really disliking Teela's character. I'm never a fan of the "I'm entitled to your secrets" trope (see also Amber in Invincible), and the first thing she does when she meets him in the afterlife (after he died saving the world) is continue berating him. Evil Lyn was awesome though, they even made me like freakin Orko!



I can see it, though. She loved Adam, perhaps not intimately, but almost a brother, if nothing else, and it’s one thing to keep a secret, but to find out that basically everyone but you and the FREAKIN’ KING knew, it would hurt - she was complaining about the lying the whole time, but the seeming lack of trust was what hurt her the deepest. In my experience it’s people you love the most that you hold some of the deepest grudges against. So when she finds out he still exists, she‘s both relieved and passed off  the same time. If it were me, I’d have had her overjoyed to see him, and THEN pissed off at him, but they made a different choice.

overall, I did like the series, and am looking forward to the rest.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Jul 29, 2021)

Mallus said:


> My thoughts?
> 
> Kevin Smith saved his most emotionally mature writing for a He-Man sequel because of course he did.
> 
> ...



I am not sure that she isn't just going along for now because she can better interfere from the inside. But I dunno.

I have practically no memories of He-Man, probably because it wasn't a show I would watch with any regularity.
I expected the show to be a bit more about He-Man than it was, though, and I kinda felt the conflicts resulting from Adam's death and reveal as He-Man a bit difficult to relate to. And those mother-board worshipers just feel a bit too silly for me.

But I guess the real problem is that I enjoyed Netflix' She-Ra way more than I ever expected and this isn't that.
Though I'll probably keep looking into it. There is overall just something about these techno-fantasy settings that I like. Maybe that's just the game master / role-player instinct in me. My first RPG was Shadowrun, after all.


----------



## Janx (Jul 29, 2021)

I'm about 3 episodes in.  I like it.

They went a lot further with the fact that these are people fighting and actually hurt or kill people.

Is this marketed toward kids?  Let's think about that seriously for a minute, because I suspect the guy crying on page 1 doesn't get how kids work.

Kids do not want crap written for their age group.  It sucks.  They want stuff the older people around them are watching (well, not 60 minutes).  It's why He-Man was successful the first time.  it was ballsbig manly and creepy and scary.  You don't think little kids now aren't sneaking peaks at The Walking Dead and playing Zombies and Carls?

So it is with this.  Kids are gonna eat this up BECAUSE it's taboo and above their parent's allowed threshold.

And because somebody I ran into whined about He-Man not being in the show and claiming it's called "He-Man and the Masters of the Universe", well, that's not the actual title. He-Man's not in the title.  Killing him off for a bit was a good move. That took some balls. Which should be the point in a show about muscle-bound warriors.


----------



## ehren37 (Jul 29, 2021)

Mallus said:


> I can see it, though. She loved Adam, perhaps not intimately, but almost a brother, if nothing else, and it’s one thing to keep a secret, but to find out that basically everyone but you and the FREAKIN’ KING knew, it would hurt - she was complaining about the lying the whole time, but the seeming lack of trust was what hurt her the deepest. In my experience it’s people you love the most that you hold some of the deepest grudges against. So when she finds out he still exists, she‘s both relieved and passed off  the same time. If it were me, I’d have had her overjoyed to see him, and THEN pissed off at him, but they made a different choice.



Playing off He-Man's gay subtext, it reads more like a closeted man's friend being pissed she wasn't in the know. Which, OK, but the guy died saving the universe. Then gave up heaven trying to help again. Get over yourself! Moreover, any time anyone tried to talk about it, or come clean about other secrets, she acted like a tool. Sorry Teela, you suck. Hopefully she gets better in the back half. 

To keep it more positive, I loved the addition of Andra. MOTU needs more POC and women, and her positivity was a welcome ray of light. Normally new characters can feel like Poochie, but she accentuated the story rather than taking over.  And she allowed some goofy, old-style MOTU action flashbacks.


----------



## MarkB (Jul 29, 2021)

Henry said:


> I can see it, though. She loved Adam, perhaps not intimately, but almost a brother, if nothing else, and it’s one thing to keep a secret, but to find out that basically everyone but you and the FREAKIN’ KING knew, it would hurt - she was complaining about the lying the whole time, but the seeming lack of trust was what hurt her the deepest. In my experience it’s people you love the most that you hold some of the deepest grudges against. So when she finds out he still exists, she‘s both relieved and passed off  the same time. If it were me, I’d have had her overjoyed to see him, and THEN pissed off at him, but they made a different choice.
> 
> overall, I did like the series, and am looking forward to the rest.



I felt like the series did a good job of laying out (without actually stating) why Adam would do it - basically he sees himself as Adam rather than He-Man, and wanted Teela to love and respect him as Adam, not just because he was He-Man. It's basically the Clark Kent / Superman / Lois dynamic from the 70s/80s movies.


----------



## Crimson Longinus (Jul 30, 2021)

So I just binge watched it. As kids' cartoons go, it was pretty damn decent. It was fun to spot all the toy design I remember from my childhood. I really liked Teela's badass new look, and Sarah Michelle Gellar did great job. Lena Headey's Evil-Lyn was the true star though and her and Beast Man teaming up with the heroes was really interesting.


----------



## Zardnaar (Jul 31, 2021)

Nevermind my bad.


----------



## Deathmaster Banak (Aug 1, 2021)

Shroompunk Warlord said:


> "Review bombing" isn't a pejorative term. If someone watched the show and didn't like it, their 1 negative review isn't less valid because of the 10,000 people who gave it negative reviews, sight unseen, because half a dozen YouTube channels that receive funding from right-wing think tanks told them to.



The Wikipedia definition seems to have a negative aspect to it, seems like a pejorative to me. It certainly isn't a term with positive connotations is it? Why would you assume that if there are 10,001 negative reviews that one is legitimate and the rest are not. 
To try and give a an analogy, if someone bought a new edition of D&D, expecting a dungeon based fantasy game, and the rules turned out to be those of Call of Cthulhu, you can understand that person being unhappy. Even more so if they voiced concerns earlier that the rules would be those of CoC and WoTC had categorically assured them that they were not. 
This is what has happened with MotU. A lot of He-Man fans are not happy, no need to conjure scary right wing bogey men.
Personally I never likes the over moralising He-Man when I was a kid, Evil-Lyn on the other hand...


----------



## DammitVictor (Aug 1, 2021)

Deathmaster Banak said:


> Why would you assume that if there are 10,001 negative reviews that one is legitimate and the rest are not.




I would assume that at least hundreds of them were legitimate. That's why review bombing is such a crappy, dishonest way of making a point-- _it destroys information_, making it harder for people to draw their own conclusions.

If a person, or a group of people, have to resort to such tactics to make their point... they don't have a valid point. They are arguing in bad faith, they are deliberately making the world a worse place to live in, etc. etc. etc. And that is _obviously_ what is happening here. 

If you watched the show, and you didn't like it, and you gave it _one negative review_ per review website you contribute to... then you're not review bombing and the people _complaining_ about review bombing are not complaining about you. The only thing you're accomplishing, by defending the indefensible, is lending _your credibility_ to garbage and letting it be thrown away with them.




Deathmaster Banak said:


> To try and give a an analogy, if someone bought a new edition of D&D, expecting a dungeon based fantasy game, and the rules turned out to be those of Call of Cthulhu, you can understand that person being unhappy. Even more so if they voiced concerns earlier that the rules would be those of CoC and WoTC had categorically assured them that they were not.




Sure, and when people are _actually doing that_ they're not getting dragged through the mud.

To continue your use of the analogy... imagine that the game is called _Call of Cthulhu, _but most of the adventures are about Nyarlathotep. Now, Nyarlathotep has been part of _Call of Cthulhu_ since the very beginning and every old-school fan of _Call of Cthulhu_... well, they just _love_ Nyarlathotep and they always have. Some people are complaining about the fact that Cthulhu isn't as important as Nyarlathotep in the adventure, that Cthulhu has been sidelined to _make way_ for Nyarlathotep. Some people are complaining that the new writers are writing Nyarlathotep wrong, robbing him of the... indescribable menace that they loved about him. Some people are complaining that the new artists are drawing Nyarlathotep in a way they don't find as _alluring_ as the old Nyarlathotep.

You're saying _those people_ have a point, and I'm happily agreeing with you.




Deathmaster Banak said:


> This is what has happened with MotU. A lot of He-Man fans are not happy, no need to conjure scary right wing bogey men.
> Personally I never likes the over moralising He-Man when I was a kid, Evil-Lyn on the other hand...




Now. A lot more people, far more people than the group we just described... are saying that the new Nyarlathotep isn't even a Great Old One at all. He's an Elder God, who's been made an Elder God as part of a _vast Elder God conspiracy_ to corrupt our youth, pander to people who like Elder Gods _et cetera_.  They're using hostile, politicized language about Elder Gods to describe Nyarlathotep, and to describe how even Cthulhu-- when he's around at all-- isn't a _real_ Great Old One anymore, to appease an audience- described in slurs-- that can never be _real_ Great Old Ones and are trying to destroy all evidence of the Great Old Ones.

You're... _simultaneously_... arguing both that _those people_ don't exist and that _those people_ have a point. You're saying you're not with _those people_, but you're also claiming that any and all attacks against _those people_ are attacks against you.

I'm not the one conjuring scary right-wing boogeymen. And, for that matter, neither are you.

You're just the Material component. For 25 gold piece, _those people_ will have as many people like you as they need for the duration of this campaign.


----------



## Morrus (Aug 1, 2021)

Deathmaster Banak said:


> The Wikipedia definition seems to have a negative aspect to it, seems like a pejorative to me. It certainly isn't a term with positive connotations is it?



It's not pejorative (it can't be), and it also is a thing which happens, often (but not always) organized by some community or website. Denying that review bombing even exists is ... new. I mean, you yourself cited the wikipedia entry on it, so you know what it is, and that very article cites dozens of famous examples. Rotten Tomatoes itself acknowledges it. Your position on this issue may be unique.


----------



## Zardnaar (Aug 1, 2021)

What the opposite of review bombing though? 

Critic rating of 94% puts it in a tier where there are things like Empire Strikes Back, Breaking Bad, The Wire or Sopranos. 

 Hell it might even be higher than that yet no one's claiming this is the greatest thing ever.


----------



## DammitVictor (Aug 2, 2021)

Zardnaar said:


> What the opposite of review bombing though?
> 
> Critic rating of 94% puts it in a tier where there are things like Empire Strikes Back, Breaking Bad, The Wire or Sopranos.
> 
> Hell it might even be higher than that yet no one's claiming this is the greatest thing ever.




94% on Rotten Tomatoes doesn't mean it's a 9.4 out of 10. It means that if you categorize professional critic reviews into "it's good" or "it's not good", 94% of them said "it's good". Me sitting here, saying it's a 7 or 8 out of 10, saying it's overall pretty good but has some *really bad *parts? Makes me part of the twenty-something percent of "fans" saying "it's good".

I mean, I'm pretty sure the opposite of "review bombing" would just be review bombing, but _I've never heard of it_. Even at the height of people saying anyone who liked _Alita: Battle Angel_ more than _Captain Marvel_ was a patronizing fedora-wearing misogynist... I never heard of a campaign by said people to go out and make _Alita_ look better by giving it a bunch of fake positive reviews.


----------



## Zardnaar (Aug 2, 2021)

Shroompunk Warlord said:


> 94% on Rotten Tomatoes doesn't mean it's a 9.4 out of 10. It means that if you categorize professional critic reviews into "it's good" or "it's not good", 94% of them said "it's good". Me sitting here, saying it's a 7 or 8 out of 10, saying it's overall pretty good but has some *really bad *parts? Makes me part of the twenty-something percent of "fans" saying "it's good".
> 
> I mean, I'm pretty sure the opposite of "review bombing" would just be review bombing, but _I've never heard of it_. Even at the height of people saying anyone who liked _Alita: Battle Angel_ more than _Captain Marvel_ was a patronizing fedora-wearing misogynist... I never heard of a campaign by said people to go out and make _Alita_ look better by giving it a bunch of fake positive reviews.




 I meant critics rate some things really high. They're just as bad as the ones review bombing. 

 For me to rate something under 50% means it has to be really bad. I'm a hard ass for over 90% as well and 95% is about as high as I go.


----------



## Tonguez (Aug 2, 2021)

Shroompunk Warlord said:


> 94% on Rotten Tomatoes doesn't mean it's a 9.4 out of 10. It means that if you categorize professional critic reviews into "it's good" or "it's not good", 94% of them said "it's good". Me sitting here, saying it's a 7 or 8 out of 10, saying it's overall pretty good but has some *really bad *parts? Makes me part of the twenty-something percent of "fans" saying "it's good".
> 
> I mean, I'm pretty sure the opposite of "review bombing" would just be review bombing, but _I've never heard of it_. Even at the height of people saying anyone who liked _Alita: Battle Angel_ more than _Captain Marvel_ was a patronizing fedora-wearing misogynist... I never heard of a campaign by said people to go out and make _Alita_ look better by giving it a bunch of fake positive reviews.




apparently there are game examples eg Assasins Creed Unity had received mixed reviews due to technical problems on launch. But When it was released free on steam fans flooded in with a gratitude bomb


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## Zardnaar (Aug 2, 2021)

Tonguez said:


> apparently there are game examples eg Assasins Creed Unity had received mixed reviews due to technical problems on launch. But When it was released free on steam fans flooded in with a gratitude bomb




 AC:Unity got patched as well. 

 Beautiful looking game and yeah it's fun. I didn't play it on release. 

 It's gone to crap game to underated part of the franchise. Opinions definitely changing on it.


----------



## DammitVictor (Aug 2, 2021)

Basically, when you ignore-- _not "remove"-- _the political aspects of these sorts of things, I think what we're seeing here is the encroachment of "videogames as identity" group psychology into more passive media spaces. It is mind-bogglingly stupid and toxic, regardless of which side of it a person is on, and I really wish I had a solution for it other than taking a hammer to every screen I own and becoming Simple.


----------



## Zardnaar (Aug 2, 2021)

Shroompunk Warlord said:


> Basically, when you ignore-- _not "remove"-- _the political aspects of these sorts of things, I think what we're seeing here is the encroachment of "videogames as identity" group psychology into more passive media spaces. It is mind-bogglingly stupid and toxic, regardless of which side of it a person is on, and I really wish I had a solution for it other than taking a hammer to every screen I own and becoming Simple.




Stop paying attention to social media. I knew Captain Marvel got review bombed but it wasn't the worst MCU movie and was decent enough. Wasn't as good as the positive reviews either but I'm not an MCU junkie.


----------



## DammitVictor (Aug 2, 2021)

Oh, I hated it.  Might not be the _worst_ MCU film-- I'm actually pretty sure it is-- but it's the perfect example of how prequels usually aren't just worse than the movies they're based on, they also usually make those movies retroactively worse. Chuds being chuds, of course, just allowed the people who made the movie to hide its real flaws behind the politically-motivated propaganda offensive.


----------



## Zardnaar (Aug 2, 2021)

Shroompunk Warlord said:


> Oh, I hated it.  Might not be the _worst_ MCU film-- I'm actually pretty sure it is-- but it's the perfect example of how prequels usually aren't just worse than the movies they're based on, they also usually make those movies retroactively worse. Chuds being chuds, of course, just allowed the people who made the movie to hide its real flaws behind the politically-motivated propaganda offensive.




 They may have pushed her to hard. Still liked the movie over say Ironman 2/3 and some of the Thor movies, Age of Ultron.


----------



## Mallus (Aug 2, 2021)

Zardnaar said:


> What the opposite of review bombing though?



Watching the entire series or movie (or playing the entire game), thinking it over, and then giving your honest opinion.

I think it’s a mistake to view review bombing as criticism. The practice has more in common with information warfare (establish control of the narrative) or boycotting (pressure a company to do/not do something).


----------



## GreyLord (Aug 2, 2021)

Shroompunk Warlord said:


> 94% on Rotten Tomatoes doesn't mean it's a 9.4 out of 10. It means that if you categorize professional critic reviews into "it's good" or "it's not good", 94% of them said "it's good". Me sitting here, saying it's a 7 or 8 out of 10, saying it's overall pretty good but has some *really bad *parts? Makes me part of the twenty-something percent of "fans" saying "it's good".
> 
> I mean, I'm pretty sure the opposite of "review bombing" would just be review bombing, but _I've never heard of it_. Even at the height of people saying anyone who liked _Alita: Battle Angel_ more than _Captain Marvel_ was a patronizing fedora-wearing misogynist... I never heard of a campaign by said people to go out and make _Alita_ look better by giving it a bunch of fake positive reviews.




Only seen them once each.  I didn't really get fascinated by Captain Marvel, but Alita just was freaky weird.  You don't have to copy the anime eyes into movie form...that was just strange looking for a robot that's supposedly somewhat humanlike.  Didn't watch the anime, but were the eyes REALLY something that were that odd and weird in the anime (as in, most anime eyes can be large and I assumed the anime for Alita was just copying that style, not that she actually had oversized eyes that were much larger than anyone else's could ever really be in the cartoon)?

So...off topic, but of the two I'd probably choose Captain Marvel anyday of the week, but a lot of that may be because the entire shtick with the eyes of Alita weirded me out.


----------



## MarkB (Aug 2, 2021)

GreyLord said:


> Only seen them once each.  I didn't really get fascinated by Captain Marvel, but Alita just was freaky weird.  You don't have to copy the anime eyes into movie form...that was just strange looking for a robot that's supposedly somewhat humanlike.  Didn't watch the anime, but were the eyes REALLY something that were that odd and weird in the anime (as in, most anime eyes can be large and I assumed the anime for Alita was just copying that style, not that she actually had oversized eyes that were much larger than anyone else's could ever really be in the cartoon)?
> 
> So...off topic, but of the two I'd probably choose Captain Marvel anyday of the week, but a lot of that may be because the entire shtick with the eyes of Alita weirded me out.



For Alita, I accepted the eyes as being a stylistic choice, but the character just has this very straight-ahead keep-bashing-at-the-problem-until-something-breaks attitude that basically works out for her, for the most part, purely due to plot conveniences. There were some fun action sequences, but she just wasn't very interesting as a person.


----------



## Tonguez (Aug 3, 2021)

I liked Alita, the anime eyes were a style choice (and apparently an fx challenge) but for me it helped convey the pinnocho theme that she was an artificial ‘doll’ who was still learning about the world and how she was suppose to fit in it.

As to Capt. Marvel, it was better than Thor 1 and Dork World, but I wouldnt say it was better than Ultron. Maybe on par with IM v Whiplash (I cant even remember the IM Killian joke)


----------



## Mallus (Aug 3, 2021)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> I have practically no memories of He-Man, probably because it wasn't a show I would watch with any regularity.



I wasn't a big fan, but I saw enough of it. Including, for some reason I can't now identify, the live-action movie with Frank Langella as Skeletor. I fancy myself more of a Thundercats man (note: irony intended).


Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> But I guess the real problem is that I enjoyed Netflix' She-Ra way more than I ever expected and this isn't that.



Thanks for reminding me I need to finish She-Ra. Stopped at the beginning of season 4. It's pretty damn impressive - though maybe not to the level of Steven Universe or Adventure Time. Still, being handed a toy commercial from the 1980s and turning it into a personal work is something Noelle Stevenson deserves a lot of praise for. Still, after 5 episodes I'm enjoying He-Man more. It's aimed right at me. It's subject is the emotional attachment aging adults have for the stories of their youth. Specially, the kinda terrible stories that don't really warrant it. In Search of Lost Toys, fanservice elevated to art.


----------



## Bedrockgames (Aug 3, 2021)

Mallus said:


> Watching the entire series or movie (or playing the entire game), thinking it over, and then giving your honest opinion.
> 
> I think it’s a mistake to view review bombing as criticism. The practice has more in common with information warfare (establish control of the narrative) or boycotting (pressure a company to do/not do something).




It has been really frustrating how so much entertainment seems to get made and viewed through a lot of the cultural and political lenses of the present day, and quality often is the last real consideration on both sides. What I've been doing lately, because increasingly both positive and negative reviews are harder to take seriously, and because I know my own reaction can be affected by the cultural conversation, is I wait at least a year to watch new movies or shows (and I don't watch that many to begin with). It just allows me to assess a movie when all the emotions surrounding it have died down (it also allows me to enjoy things for their own sake, and not feel like if I like something I am on team A and if I don't like something I am on team B). For me the measure of a film has always been does it impact me emotionally. Movies with messages I don't particularly agree with, movies that are more heavy handed in their messaging than I prefer, can all still be quality and have that emotional heft I am looking for. But I want the emotion to come from the movie itself, and my honest response to it, not from the cultural moment the movie exists in.


----------



## Blue (Aug 21, 2021)

Stalker0 said:


> Finished the season. It was … fine enough, I feel like it’s a bit in the middle ground of too involved for kids but too simple for adults.
> 
> Orko was the highlight for me, thst was the best part of the show.
> 
> So a question, is it ever explained in the original show why all these other people know He-mans secret, but Tesla can’t?



"All these other people" = next to nobody in the original show, a very closely guarded secret.

This show happens to be focusing on mostly that subset of the good guys.  It's not representative.  (Oh, and I think adding the Queen was something new.)


----------



## Aldarc (Aug 22, 2021)

RangerWickett said:


> I don't bat an eye at the big twist. Like, did none of y'all nostalgic fans ever watch the Transformers cartoon movie where they killed off literally every original character except Bumblebee and the Dinobots, because that way they could sell new toys?





MoonSong said:


> I thought that movie had traumatized a whole generation?



It did, myself included (R.I.P. Prowl ) Hasbro had no idea that it would be that traumatic, so when it came to their GI Joe movie, Duke was supposed to die, but, instead, he got put into a comma with a line at the end about him now recovering.

But it wasn't until Beast Wars that Hasbro learned that people were primarily buying the characters on the show, and that it was better to keep those characters around, but give them upgrades (e.g., transmetal, transmetal 2, fusors, etc.) than to try showcasting 50+ characters at once in the show. However, Beast Wars's small cast was primarily a limitation of budget with CGI.  



Blue said:


> "All these other people" = next to nobody in the original show, a very closely guarded secret.
> 
> This show happens to be focusing on mostly that subset of the good guys.  It's not representative.  *(Oh, and I think adding the Queen was something new.)*



She implicitly knew: 


> Prince Adam: “Mother, I was just wondering…”
> Queen Marlena: “Yes, what is it Adam ?”
> Prince Adam: “Well, I was wondering when Skeletor had us all chained up, why did you free me instead of one of the others ?”
> Queen Marlena: “Because you are my son, Adam. I didn’t have time to free everyone. And I had a ‘feeling’ you would know what to do.”
> ...



I also vaguely recall an episode in either the original Filmation or the 2002 series where Queen Marlena kinda pieces it together when Battle Cat takes Queen Marlena to a location that has some significance or special memory in regards to Cringer.


----------



## DammitVictor (Aug 22, 2021)

Blue said:


> "All these other people" = next to nobody in the original show, a very closely guarded secret.
> 
> This show happens to be focusing on mostly that subset of the good guys.  It's not representative.  (Oh, and I think adding the Queen was something new.)




Orko, Duncan, Cringer, and the Sorceress were _in on it_. Marlena clocked him  on her own, and never told anyone else about it-- she may have guessed that Duncan knew, but for all she actually knew, Teela was _in on it_, too.


----------



## Crimson Longinus (Aug 22, 2021)

DammitVictor said:


> Orko, Duncan, Cringer, and the Sorceress were _in on it_. Marlena clocked him  on her own, and never told anyone else about it-- she may have guessed that Duncan knew, but for all she actually knew, Teela was _in on it_, too.



Considering that in the old cartoon Adam and He-man look like the exact same guy in different clothes the mindboggling part is that someone _wouldn't_ know. So basically the same issue than with Superman.

In the new show Adam actually looks significantly different than He-Man, so it makes far more sense.


----------



## MoonSong (Aug 22, 2021)

Crimson Longinus said:


> Considering that in the old cartoon Adam and He-man look like the exact same guy in different clothes the mindboggling part is that someone _wouldn't_ know. So basically the same issue than with Superman.
> 
> In the new show Adam actually looks significantly different than He-Man, so it makes far more sense.



That has been done ever since New Adventures. Though I have very vague memories of it. I was like three? four when it was broadcast in my country?


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## Maxperson (Aug 22, 2021)

Crimson Longinus said:


> Considering that in the old cartoon Adam and He-man look like the exact same guy in different clothes the mindboggling part is that someone _wouldn't_ know. So basically the same issue than with Superman.
> 
> In the new show Adam actually looks significantly different than He-Man, so it makes far more sense.



At least with Adam and He-Man there was a massive physical difference.  Sure He-Man might strongly resemble Adam, but resemblance among strangers happens all the time.  He-Man had huge bulging muscles that Adam didn't have which would cause people to dismiss thoughts of them being the same person as their imagination.  Superman and Clark had the exact same build, height, hair color, eye color, etc.  The only difference was a pair of glasses and the clothing.


----------



## Rune (Aug 22, 2021)

Maxperson said:


> At least with Adam and He-Man there was a massive physical difference.  Sure He-Man might strongly resemble Adam, but resemblance among strangers happens all the time.  He-Man had huge bulging muscles that Adam didn't have which would cause people to dismiss thoughts of them being the same person as their imagination.  Superman and Clark had the exact same build, height, hair color, eye color, etc.  The only difference was a pair of glasses and the clothing.



In the original show? Adam looks just as muscular to me. Paler, but very buff.

And a lot of subtle nuances in Christopher Reeve’s portrayal (and I’m using him as an example, because it’s the best) helped to make Kent appear to be a distinct character. Like parting his hair on the opposite side. And frankly, the point of Kent’s meek, nerdy persona was to make sure people _didn’t_ pay attention to him. The surrounding characters’ impression of Kent as ignorable pretty much ensures they won’t even be able to _conceive_ of him being heroic, let alone superheroic.

I always got the sense they were going for something like that in the original MotU, but they never pulled it off. In my opinion. Adam seems like an action figure that came out of the same mold.


----------



## Rune (Aug 22, 2021)

Rune said:


> In the original show? Adam looks just as muscular to me. Paler, but very buff.
> 
> And a lot of subtle nuances in Christopher Reeve’s portrayal (and I’m using him as an example, because it’s the best) helped to make Kent appear to be a distinct character. Like parting his hair on the opposite side. And frankly, the point of Kent’s meek, nerdy persona was to make sure people _didn’t_ pay attention to him. The surrounding characters’ impression of Kent as ignorable pretty much ensures they won’t even be able to _conceive_ of him being heroic, let alone superheroic.
> 
> I always got the sense they were going for something like that in the original MotU, but they never pulled it off. In my opinion. Adam seems like an action figure that came out of the same mold.


----------



## Morrus (Aug 22, 2021)

Yeah, Adam has basically the same build as He Man. Just a different costume.


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## MarkB (Aug 22, 2021)

Morrus said:


> Yeah, Adam has basically the same build as He Man. Just a different costume.



And the same hairstyle. It's a wonder he doesn't give the game away any time he has a trim.


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## Rune (Aug 22, 2021)

Rune said:


> In the original show? Adam looks just as muscular to me. Paler, but very buff.
> 
> And a lot of subtle nuances in Christopher Reeve’s portrayal (and I’m using him as an example, because it’s the best) helped to make Kent appear to be a distinct character. Like parting his hair on the opposite side. And frankly, the point of Kent’s meek, nerdy persona was to make sure people _didn’t_ pay attention to him. The surrounding characters’ impression of Kent as ignorable pretty much ensures they won’t even be able to _conceive_ of him being heroic, let alone superheroic.
> 
> I always got the sense they were going for something like that in the original MotU, but they never pulled it off. In my opinion. Adam seems like an action figure that came out of the same mold.



Another thing about Kent’s hair vs. Superman’s (in addition to the reversed part):

Kent’s is straight and Supes’ is wavy.


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## Morrus (Aug 22, 2021)

Rune said:


> Another thing about Kent’s hair vs. Superman’s (in addition to the reversed part):
> 
> Kent’s is straight and Supes’ is wavy.



The S-shaped curl is famous.


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## Rune (Aug 22, 2021)

Morrus said:


> The S-shaped curl is famous.



Yeah, but even the rest is kind of wavy. Kent’s is straightened out and kinda looks like it’s meant to resemble a hairpiece.


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## Morrus (Aug 22, 2021)

Rune said:


> Yeah, but even the rest is kind of wavy. Kent’s is straightened out and kinda looks like it’s meant to resemble a hairpiece.



I don't think I'm seeing what you're seeing!


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## Janx (Aug 23, 2021)

Rune said:


> --snip--






Rune said:


> Adam seems like an action figure that came out of the same mold.



I would not doubt that all the he-man action figures used the same mold whenever possible.


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## Tonguez (Aug 24, 2021)

Janx said:


> I would not doubt that all the he-man action figures used the same mold whenever possible.




Its well known that the Masters of the Universe toys were all constructed from an interchangable set of body peices - torso, trunks, arms and legs and armour which were given different paint jobs and heads. For instance Stinkor is built with Mermans head, Mekaneks Armour and Skeletors arms and legs.
Iirc theres about 8 official torso moulds - the He-man torso is most used (He-Man, Skeletor, Man-at-Arms, Merman and Hordak) even the Beastman mould is just the He-Man mould with more hair. Theres also the Teela mould (shared by Teela and Evil-Lyn), the Fisto torso (armoured torso) and the Buzz-Off torso (Buzz-off and Whiplash)
They also used peices from other older lines for weapons, vehicles and beasts eg marketing VP of Mattel Paul Cleveland once told the story that when they were designing an animal companion for He-Man they ran out of budget and were told to repurpose the Tiger from the Big Jim toy line.  However Big Jim was built on a  much bigger scale than MoTU, so the Tiger was huge compared to He-Man. The artist didnt like it so painted it green. Cleveland insisted they use it and even if it was as big as a horse they could go put a f**ing saddle on it. Thus Battle Cat was born as a giant green Tiger with a saddle


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## fba827 (Nov 19, 2021)

I believe the second half of the season is dropping on Netflix middle of next week ( right before thanksgiving in the us)


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## MarkB (Nov 26, 2021)

I've watched the first two episodes of the second part. On the bright side, Skeletor is managing some actual characterisation rather than just channeling the Joker.

What they did with Adam was interesting, but didn't feel too original. Strong shades of a certain couple of Marvel characters.


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## Rune (Nov 26, 2021)

Having just finished the series, I must say…I wasn’t expecting to see so much of Dogma’s DNA in it. Given the nihilistic villain attempting to destroy the universe, and all. 

I wonder if we’ll get a new season now that Skeletor has been taken over by Mother Board.


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