# Reviewing, Revising, and Finalizing Prehistoric Animals and Dinosaur Ecology



## xidoraven (Oct 6, 2009)

In addition to the Phantasy Prehistorium thread on fictional stuff for a prehistoric campaign setting world called Nym, other posted creature stats will be refined here for a full-spectrum of a prehistoric ecology.  This forum will be for reviewing, revising, and statting prehistoric animals and dinosaurs of our real-world history, primarily based on popular scientific knowledge about them.

Okay, one thing I want to start with is how I will be organizing it, so that we don't get the priorities wrong.  I understand that in our own history these creatures occurred in particular epochs, but that is actually not the primary way I will be organizing, although that information is nonetheless helpful for creature statistics as they will be finalized for writing (a comprehensive pdf file of OGL and non-OGL content, and potential publication and web media) including those stats.

So here's a suggestion: write the era/epoch (named) if you wish, but specifically the range numbers of years BCE the creature existed on earth, right at the top somewhere below the name.  If you wish, call the stat, 'Epoch:' or 'BCE:' and everyone else will have to copy you because you will have made a decision I am not willing to make.

The only decision I have made in this regard is that I will be organizing them as a list of ecology tables, such as the ones in the DMG, pp. 96-98, organized by environment, CR, and regional percentage - in addition, they will each have a region map in their final published stats, and many will have celestial, anarchic, and/or axiomatic versions of them.  There will be lots of pretty pictures - is the hope....  Even if I have to all of them myself by hand....  Ok, computer.  
-will

The current index:
Acanthostega
Acrocanthosaurus
Acrocanthosaurus ver. 2
Aepycamelus (formerly Alticamelus)
Ambulocetus
Amebelodon
Ammonite
Amphicyon
Anancus
Anatotitan
Anatotitan ver. 2
Anchisaurus
Anchisaurus ver. 2
Andrewsarchus
Anhanguera
Ankylosaurus
Anomalocaris
Anoplotops Ferox
Apatosaurus
Archaeoceratops
Archaeopteryx
Arctognathus
Argentavis
Argentinosaurus
Arthropleura
Auroch
Avimimus
Baiji
Bambiraptor
Baryonyx
Basilosaurus
Beelzebufo
Beipiaosaurus
Belemnite
Bellusaurus
Brachiosaurus
Brachiosaurus ver. 2
Brontornis
Brontotherium
Cacops
Camarasaurus
Camptosaurus
Carcharodontosaurus
Carnotaurus
Carnotaurus ver. 2
Castoroides
Castoroides ver. 2
Cave Hyena
Centrosaurus
Ceratosaurus
Cetiosaurus
Charonosaurus
Clidastes
Clidastes ver. 2
Coelacanth
Coelodonta
Coelophysis
Coelurus
Compsognathus
Cretoxyrhina
Cynodont, Tiny
Cynodont, Small
Cynodont, Medium
Cynognathus
Dacentrurus
Daeodon
Dakosaurus
Daspletosaurus
Deinogalerix
Deinosuchus
Deinosuchus ver. 2
Deinotherium
Desmatosuchus
Diademodon
Dicynodon
Diictodon
Diplocaulus
Dilophosaurus
Dilophosaurus ver. 2
Dimetrodon
Dimetrodon ver. 2
Dimorphodon
Dinichthys
Dinichthys ver. 2
Dinornis
Dire Owl (Tyto Gigantea)
Dodo
Dodo ver. 2
Doedicurus
Dromornis
Echinochimaera
Edaphosaurus
Edmontosaurus
Ekaltadeta
Elasmotherium
Eogyrinus
Eogyrinus ver. 2
Epanterias
Epigaulus
Eryops
Eryops ver. 2
Eryops ver. 3
Erythrosuchus
Eshanosaurus
Estemmenosuchus
Estemmenosuchus ver. 2
Euchambersia
Euchambersia ver. 2
Euparkeria
Eurypterid
Eustreptospondylus
Exaeretodon
Gasosaurus
Gerrothorax
Giant Eurypterid
Giant Orthocone
Giant Titanoboa
Giganotosaurus
Giganotosaurus ver. 2
Gigantopithecus
Gigantoraptor
Giraffatitan
Gomphotherium (Shovel-Tusker)
Gorgosaurus
Gorgosaurus ver. 2
Hallucigenia
Halticosaurus
Hatzegopteryx
Helicoprion
Herrerasaurus
Hippopotamus Gorgops
Huayangosaurus
Hyaenodon
Hypsilophodon
Hypsilophodon ver. 2
Hyracotherium
Icthyosaurus
Iguanodon
Iguanodont
Inostrancevia
Inostrancevia ver. 2
Kannemeyeria
Kentrosaurus
Kentrosaurus
Keratocephalus
Kolponomos
Koolasuchus
Kronosaurus
Kronosaurus ver. 2
Kronosaurus ver. 3
Lambeosaurus
Leedsichthys
Leptictidium
Lexovisaurus
Liopleurodon
Little Bush Moa
Lycaenops
Lycaenops ver. 2
Lycognathus
Lystrosaurus
Maiasaura
Mamenchisaurus
Mamenchisaurus ver. 2
Mammoth
Mapusaurus
Masiakasaurus
Massospondylus
Mastodonsaurus
Megalania
Megalania Prisca
Megaloceros
Megalosaurus
Megantereon
Meiolania
Mesosaurus
Microceratus Queen
Microceratus Sentry/Breeder
Microceratus Worker
Micropachycephalosaurus
Microraptor
Monoclonius
Mononykus
Moropus
Mosasaurus
Moschops
Moschops ver. 2
Neanderthal
Nodosaur, Large
Nodosaur, Huge
Nothosaurus
Nothosaurus ver. 2
Ophiacodon
Ophiacodon, Advanced
Ornimegalonyx
Ornitholestes
Ornitholestes ver. 2
Ornithomimus
Ornithomimus ver. 2
Ornithosuchus
Ouranosaurus
Oviraptor
Pachycephalosaurus
Pachyrhinosaurus
Panoplosaurus
Paracyclotosaurus
Parasaurolophos
Pawpawsaurus
Pelorovis
Pentaceratops
Phorusrhacos
Piatnitzkysaurus
Pinacosaurus
Placerias
Placerias ver. 2
Placerias ver. 3
Plateosaurus
Plateosaurus ver. 2
Platyhystrix
Postosuchus
Prenocephale
Priscileo
Procoptodon
Prosaurolophus
Protoceratops
Psittacosaurus
Pteranodon
Pteranodon ver. 2
Pterodactylus
Pyrenean Ibex
Quetzalcoatlus
Repenomamus
Rhynchosaur
Robertia
Saltasaurus
Saurolophus
Scelidosaurus
Scutellosaurus
Scutosaurus
Segnosaurus
Shantungosaurus
Shonisaurus
Shonisaurus
Shunosaurus
Shuvuuia
Simosuchus
Sinocalliopteryx
Sinornithosaurus
Sinraptor
Sivatherium
Smilodon
Smilodon ver. 2
Sphenacodon
Spinosaurus
Spinosaurus ver. 2
Stagonolepis
Stegosaurus
Steller's Sea Cow
Stethacanthus
Stokesosaurus
Stomatosuchus
Struthiomimus
Struthiosaurus
Stygimoloch
Styracosaurus
Styracosaurus ver. 2
Styracosaurus ver. 3
Suchomimus
"Super Predator" (Carcharodontosaurus, Giganotosaurus, Saurophaganax, Tyrannosaurus Baatar, Tyrannosaurus Rex)
Tanaconda
Tanystropheus
Tanystropheus ver. 2
Tanystropheus ver. 3
Tapejara
Teleosaurus
Temnodontosaurus
Teratosaurus
Terrestrisuchus
Thalattosaurus
Therizinosaurus
Therizinosaurus ver. 2
Therizinosaurus ver. 3
Thylacine
Thylacoleo
Thylacoleo
Thylacosmilus
Tiktaalik
Titanosaurus
Titanosuchus
Titanosuchus ver. 2
Torosaurus
Torvosaurus
Troodon
Tsintaosaurus
Tullimonstrum
Tyrannosaurus Rex
Tyrannosaurus Rex ver. 2
Uintatherium
Uintatherium ver. 2
Utahraptor
Utahraptor ver. 2
Velociraptor
Venatraraptor
Vulcanodon
Wakaleo
Xiaosaurus
Xiphactinus
Yangchuanosaurus
Zuniceratops


*Skills*
Scent Tracking (Survival)

*Feats*
Confusing Trail
Foe of the Scaled
Gnash
Greater Toughness
Horrific Roar
Impenetrable Natural Armor
Prehistoric Affinity
Primal Spell
Primal Yell
Primeval Druid
Primeval Shape
Slay the Gigantic


----------



## Cleon (Oct 6, 2009)

xidoraven said:


> In addition to the Phantasy Prehistorium thread on fictional stuff for a prehistoric campaign setting world called Nym, other posted creature stats will be refined here for a full-spectrum of a prehistoric ecology.




A good way to start would be reworking the SRD Dinosaurs (Velociraptor, Megaraptor, Elasmosaurus, Triceratops & Tyrannosaurus) since they are pretty poorly designed - especially in their abundance of useless Toughness feats. The Megaraptor is both redundant (being an upscaled Velociraptor) and inaccurate (since they're killing claws were on their hands, not their feet).

I whipped up some "revised" SRD dinosaurs a while back and I might as well share them. Most cleave reasonably close to the official 3E stats, so some are arguably not all that true a reflection of the real life animals.



xidoraven said:


> So here's a suggestion: write the era/epoch (named) if you wish, but specifically the range numbers of years BCE the creature existed on earth, right at the top somewhere below the name. If you wish, call the stat, 'Epoch:' or 'BCE:' and everyone else will have to copy you because you will have made a decision I am not willing to make.




That wouldn't seem very useful unless you're having a dinoworld with creatures from different geological ages in different areas - e.g. a "Cretaceous Continent" were all the Triceratops and Tyrannosaurs live.

Plus, there's probably a lot of overlap statwise with some of the dinosaurs. _Triceratops_, for example, only lived at the very end of the Cretaceous (65-70 million years ago or 'MYA'), but its 3E stats could easily be used for any other Ceratopsian of equivalent size.

Oh, and I like MYA over BCE or writing "65 million years before the modern age".


----------



## Cleon (Oct 6, 2009)

*Building a Better Deinonychus*

*Deinonychus Redux*
*Early Cretaceous (115-110 MYA)*
Medium Animal
*Hit Dice:* 4d8+12 (30 hp)
*Initiative:* +2
*Speed:* 60 ft. (12 squares)
*Armor Class:* 16 (+2 Dex, +4 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 14
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +3/+7
*Attack:* Talons +7 melee (1d10+3)
*Full Attack:* Talons +7 melee (1d10+3) and 2 foreclaws +2 melee (1d3+1) and bite +2 melee (2d4+1)
*Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Pounce
*Special Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +7, Ref +6, Will +2
*Abilities:* Str 17, Dex 15, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 10
*Skills:* Hide +8* [_+16 in undergrowth_], Jump +21, Listen +6, Spot +6, Survival +6
*Feats:* Run, Track
*Environment:* Warm forests or plains
*Organization:* Solitary, pair, or pack (3–6)
*Challenge Rating:* 3
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 5 (Medium); 6–8 HD (Large)
*Level Adjustment:* —

A _Deinonychus_ is bright green along its back and flanks, with a much lighter shade of the same colour on its underside. The body has darker spots or stripes. Its tail extends straight out behind itself, held aloft by an intricate structure of bony supports, thus allowing its weight to be carried entirely by the back legs. It stands 6 feet tall and weighs about 300 pounds, with a total length of 16 feet. [_Note this is somewhat larger than the real-life version_]
*
Combat
*A _Deinonychus_ uses a combination of speed, grasping forearms, large teeth, and hind legs with ripping talons. It hunts by running at prey, leaping, and ripping with its rear talons as it claws and bites. The talons count as one attack. A _Deinonychus_ has a relatively large brain for a dinosaur, and its pack hunts with cunning tactics.

*Pounce (Ex):* If a _Deinonychus_ charges, it can make a full attack.
*
Skills
*A _Deinonychus_ has a +4 racial bonus on Hide, Jump, Listen, Spot, and Survival checks.

*Its racial bonus to Hide increases to +12 in undergrowth.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 6, 2009)

*Building a Better Megaraptor (Utahraptor version)*

*Utahraptor (Megaraptor Redux)*
*Early Cretaceous (130-120 MYA)*
Large Animal
*Hit Dice:* 8d8+40 (76 hp)
*Initiative:* +2
*Speed:* 60 ft. (12 squares)
*Armor Class:* 16 (–1 size, +2 Dex, +5 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 14
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +6/+15
*Attack:* Talons +9 melee (2d8+6)
*Full Attack:* Talons +9 melee (2d8+6) and 2 foreclaws +7 melee (1d4+3) and bite +7 melee (2d6+3)
*Space/Reach:* 10 ft./5 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Pounce
*Special Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +10, Ref +8, Will +4
*Abilities:* Str 23, Dex 15, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 10
*Skills:* Hide +5* [_+13 in undergrowth_], Jump +24, Listen +8, Spot +8, Survival +8
*Feats:* Run, Multiattack, Track
*Environment:* Warm forests or plains
*Organization:* Solitary, pair, or pack (3–6)
*Challenge Rating:* 6
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 9–11 HD (Large); 12–16 HD (Huge)
*Level Adjustment:* —

This creature is a larger relative of the _Deinonychus_ that stands about 9 feet tall, with a total length of 24 feet and an average weight of 1000 pounds. It has the same appearance, habits, and abilities as its smaller cousin.
*Combat
* A _Utahraptor _uses a combination of speed, grasping forearms, large teeth, and hind legs with ripping talons. It hunts by running at prey, leaping, and ripping with its rear talons as it claws and bites. The talons count as one attack. A _Utahraptor _has a relatively large brain for a dinosaur, and its pack hunts with cunning tactics.

*Pounce (Ex):* If a _Utahraptor_ charges, it can make a full attack.
*
Skills
*A _Utahraptor_ has a +4 racial bonus on Hide, Jump, Listen, Spot, and Survival checks.

*Its racial bonus to Hide increases to +12 in undergrowth.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 6, 2009)

*Building a Better Elasmosaurus*

*Elasmosaurus Redux*
*Late Cretaceous (95-65 MYA)*
Huge Animal
*Hit Dice:* 10d8+60 (105 hp)
*Initiative:* +6
*Speed:* 20 ft. (4 squares), swim 50 ft.
*Armor Class:* 13 (–2 size, +2 Dex, +3 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 11
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +7/+22
*Attack:* Bite +13 melee (1d10+10)
*Full Attack:* Bite +13 melee (1d10+10)
*Space/Reach:* 15 ft./10 ft. (20 ft. with bite)
*Special Attacks:* Improved grab, swallow whole
*Special Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +15, Ref +11, Will +4
*Abilities:* Str 25, Dex 14, Con 22, Int 1, Wis 13, Cha 9
*Skills:* Hide –4*, Listen +4, Spot +9, Swim +15
*Feats:* Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Weapon Focus (bite)
*Environment:* Warm aquatic
*Organization:* Solitary, pair, or herd (5–8)
*Challenge Rating:* 7
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 11–20 HD (Huge); 21–30 HD (Gargantuan)
*Level Adjustment:* —

Though it resides primarily in the water, an _Elasmosaurus_ only breathes air. An _Elasmosaurus_ has a total length of some 40 feet, including a neck half as long as its entire body, and weighs about 10,000 pounds. Observers who see only its head or tail might easily mistake it for a massive snake.
*
Combat
*An _Elasmosaurus_ only hunts prey small enough for it to swallow, but will defend itself aggressive if it feels itself to be threatened. The creature is strong, fast, and highly maneuverable, able to turn quickly and lunge at prey. When hunting, it travels with its head out of the water, snapping down quickly to seize prey.

*Improved Grab (Ex):* To use this ability, an _Elasmosaurus_ must hit an opponent of up to one size smaller with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can try to swallow the foe the following round.

*Swallow Whole (Ex): *An _Elasmosaurus_ can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of up to three sizes smaller by making a successful grapple check. The swallowed creature takes 2d8+7 points of bludgeoning damage and 8 points of acid damage per round from the _Elasmosaurus_’s gizzard. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal 25 points of damage to the gizzard (AC 11). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out.

A Huge _Elasmosaurus_’s gizzard can hold 8 Small, 32 Tiny, or 128 Diminutive or smaller opponents.
*
Skills
* An _Elasmosaurus_ has a +8 racial bonus on Swim checks. It can always choose to take 10 on a Jump or Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.

*An _Elasmosaurus_ has a +8 racial bonus on Hide checks in water.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 6, 2009)

*Building a Better Megaraptor (take 2)*

*Megaraptor Redux*
*Late Cretaceous (90-85 MYA)*
Huge Animal
*Hit Dice:* 12d8+60 (114 hp)
*Initiative:* +2
*Speed:* 50 ft. (10 squares)
*Armor Class:* 16 (–2 size, +2 Dex, +6 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 14
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +9/+24
*Attack:* Bite +15 melee (2d6+8) or claw +15 melee (1d10+4)
*Full Attack:* Bite +15 melee (2d6+8) and 2 claws +13 melee (1d10+4)
*Space/Reach:* 15 ft./10 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Improved grab
*Special Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +13, Ref +10, Will +6
*Abilities:* Str 27, Dex 15, Con 21, Int 1, Wis 15, Cha 10
*Skills:* Hide +2* [_+10 in swamps or undergrowth_], Listen +10, Spot +10, Survival +9
*Feats:* Multiattack, Run, Track, Weapon Focus (bite), Weapon Focus (claw)
*Environment:* Warm forests or swamps
*Organization:* Solitary or pair
*Challenge Rating:* 6
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 13-20 HD (Huge); 21–30 HD (Gargantuan)
*Level Adjustment:* —

A _Megaraptor_ is a predatory dinosaur with oversized claws on its hands. Its statistics can be used for similar large-clawed carnivorous dinosaurs, such as _Baryonyx_ or _Spinosaurus_.

A typical adult _Megaraptor_ stands about 12 feet tall, with a total length of 30 feet. It weighs 4000 pounds or so.

*Combat*
 A _Megaraptor_ seeks to grab hold of an opponent and tear it apart with their claws and teeth. They usually hunt prey smaller than themselves.

 *Improved Grab (Ex):* To use this ability, a _Megaraptor_ must hit with a claw or bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.
*
Skills
*A _Megaraptor_ has a +4 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, Spot, and Survival checks.

*Its racial bonus to Hide increases to +12 when it is submerged in swamps or thick undergrowth.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 6, 2009)

*Building a Better Triceratops*

*Triceratops Redux*
*Late Cretaceous (70-65 MYA)*
Huge Animal
*Hit Dice:* 16d8+112 (184 hp)
*Initiative:* –1
*Speed:* 30 ft. (6 squares)
*Armor Class:* 18 (–2 size, –1 Dex, +11 natural), touch 7, flat-footed 18
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +12/+30
*Attack:* Gore +20 melee (2d8+15)
*Full Attack:* Gore +20 melee (2d8+15)
*Space/Reach:* 15 ft./10 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Powerful charge, trample 2d12+15
*Special Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +19, Ref +9, Will +6
*Abilities:* Str 30, Dex 9, Con 25, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 7
*Skills:* Listen +13, Spot +12
*Feats:* Alertness, Endurance, Great Fortitude, Improved Bull Run, Power Attack, Run
*Environment:* Temperate plains
*Organization:* Solitary, pair, or herd (5–8)
*Challenge Rating:* 9
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 17–24 HD (Huge); 25–32 HD (Gargantuan)
*Level Adjustment:* —

A _Triceratops _has a body about 25 feet long and weighs about 15,000 pounds.
*
Combat
*These creatures are likely to charge and skewer any creature of at least Large size that infringes on their territory. A _Triceratops _uses its trample attack on smaller opponents.

*Powerful Charge (Ex):* When a _Triceratops _charges, its gore attack deals 4d8+20 points of damage.

*Trample (Ex):* Reflex half DC 28. The save DC is Strength-based.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 6, 2009)

*Building a Better Tyrannosaurus*

*Tyrannosaurus Redux*
*Late Cretaceous (70-65 MYA)*
Huge Animal
*Hit Dice:* 18d8+126 (207 hp)
*Initiative:* +1
*Speed:* 40 ft. (8 squares)
*Armor Class:* 18 (–2 size, +1 Dex, +9 natural) touch 9, flat-footed 17
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +13/+33
*Attack:* Bite +24 melee (3d8+18/19-20)
*Full Attack:* Bite +24 melee (3d8+18/19-20)
*Space/Reach:* 15 ft./10 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Improved grab, swallow whole
*Special Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +18, Ref +12, Will +10
*Abilities:* Str 34, Dex 12, Con 25, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 10
*Skills:* Hide +8* [_+12 in undergrowth_], Listen +10, Spot +12, Survival +10
*Feats:* Alertness, Improved Critical (bite), Iron Will, Power Attack, Run, Track, Weapon Focus (bite)
*Environment:* Warm plains
*Organization:* Solitary or pair
*Challenge Rating:* 8
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 19–24 HD (Huge); 25-36 HD (Gargantuan)
*Level Adjustment:* —

Despite its enormous size and 6-ton weight, a _Tyrannosaurus _is a swift runner. Its head is nearly 6 feet long, and its teeth are from 3 to 6 inches in length. A typical adult specimen is between 30 and 40 feet long from nose to tail.
*
Combat
*A _Tyrannosaurus _pursues and eats just about anything it sees. They are surprisingly stealthy, and often hide in wait for passing prey. Its tactics are simple—charge in and bite.

*Improved Grab (Ex):* To use this ability, a _Tyrannosaurus _must hit an opponent of up to one size smaller with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can try to swallow the foe the following round.

*Swallow Whole (Ex): *A _Tyrannosaurus_ can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of up to two sizes smaller by making a successful grapple check. The swallowed creature takes 2d8+12 points of bludgeoning damage and 8 points of acid damage per round from the _Tyrannosaurus’s_ gizzard. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal 25 points of damage to the gizzard (AC 14). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out.

A Huge _Tyrannosaurus’s_ gizzard can hold 2 Medium, 8 Small, 32 Tiny, or 128 Diminutive or smaller opponents.
*
Skills
*A _Tyrannosaurus_ has a +4 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, Spot, and Survival checks.

*Its racial bonus to Hide increases to +8 in undergrowth.


----------



## xidoraven (Oct 8, 2009)

Cleon said:


> The Megaraptor is both redundant (being an upscaled Velociraptor) and inaccurate (since they're killing claws were on their hands, not their feet).




Okay, this was the primary thing I wanted to raise, and everything else was second after this thought: Megaraptor is actually not in the same genus as Velociraptor, Deinonychus, or Utahraptor at all - it is actually a closer relative to Spinosaurus, a large carnosaur.  The claw is on the front appendages because it is not even the same evolutionary framework as the famed hind-leg 'raptor claw'.

I believe the Wikipedia article on it raises that point, but I know I read it somewhere when I was considering the basis of the dinopriminal, the Raptorinal (which utilizes the Utahraptor - a true 'raptor' family member, before anthropomorphosis).

Think somewhat less large spinosaurid with a huge front claw and a significantly less prominent spinal crest in place of a sail.



> A good way to start would be reworking the SRD Dinosaurs (Velociraptor, Megaraptor, Elasmosaurus, Triceratops & Tyrannosaurus) since they are pretty poorly designed - especially in their abundance of useless Toughness feats.
> 
> I whipped up some "revised" SRD dinosaurs a while back and I might as well share them. Most cleave reasonably close to the official 3E stats, so some are arguably not all that true a reflection of the real life animals.
> 
> ...



Okay, so now to business.  First off, wow - you came in with a bang.  I wasn't expecting a reply so quickly, though I should have.

I was going to make a second posting to create an index of creatures after my first, but I will instead have to shift the info on the first posting elsewhere and post it there instead (*UNLESS* of course you would like to be the archivist in charge of keeping an up to date Index posting in your posting of #2, and shift one dinosaur down).

So to make it clear and taking in your comments, there are a few things every posting about a dino/prim should have:


Consistent 3.5 stats (MMI formatted; not that Forgotten Realms crud, please) are to be determined utilizing OGL content and/or a specific feat, skill use, or ability that is clearly outlined either in legally respectful writing/paraphrasing (please get permissions for everything questionable *you find* created by an independent creator or forum user).  Everything on the WotC forum, Dinosaur Menagerie, and here on ENWorld is green lighted until further notice.  (_I will personally get permissions from authors later for player and creature-oriented new stats already outlined on Dinosaur Menagerie._)  If you know about 4e and have the nerve I personally do not have to convert *cough* to the dark side *cough*, you may include them as a separate posting.  Every 1000 or so postings we will create a new thread, as done in the conversions forum.
  Toughness is way over done for feat use; extra hp is ridiculously useless in a large-scale, large-creature primitive ecology and evolution.
Take careful consideration when posting an Environment and Organization statistics - these should be reviewed (by Rappy/Raptorial, if possible).  There is a lot of room for error here unless you do some research about the critter.  Also, please don't allow an unreasonable gap in Organization stats (ie, Solitary[1], pair[2], and herd 8-10); account for the 3 to whatever gap is less than a herd or whatever else.  These kind of creatures do not usually come in tactical units, though a symbiotic relationship may apply - provide this is an accompanying text below combat, including the other creatures (usually a swarm of some form, like bug-eating birds, or swarming insects); list as a separate section of text, but in Organization you could include something like "Solitary, pair, herd 3-8, and symbiotic canary birds (see text below)".
Don't include Level Adjustments (unnecessary for dinos/prims), even with a blank stat answer.  Fictional creatures go to Phantasy Prehistorium (ie, Giant Dire Eomanis and Kaiju Eomanis, Eberron feaux dinos, etc.); not here.
Include a new stat: "*Existed:* ### MYA" listed as 'million years ago' and assumed to mean in real-world Earth's history (yes, those campaigns exist, and we are producing for them as well) - maybe below the name of the animal, or else where Level Adjustment usually goes - just not in the flavor text (which should be generic in that respect).  Most users will be using these stats for fictional settings unrelated to Earth history, but it is nonetheless useful.
All flavor and/or descriptive text I want reviewed by Raptorial (user:Rappy on here) and his/her discussion participants.
There are amazing images out there, but please don't include them in the posting - a final art project will be undertaken to have the best outcome for the final product (web media included).  After I get my wacom tablet, I will be doing some of them personally and I welcome rough draft suggestions by the artists themselves or members of DeviantArt or Elftown.com.
Though some popular dinos/prims have similar family members which might utilize the same stats, those should be limited to only genus members as the base race.  All prioritized creatures here will be given stats if possible, and some race are necessary - all first priority are creatures already created needed thorough reviews and revisions.  Variant 3.5 OGL creatures should include stats describing how they differ from the original OGL creature - all others statted normally (no need for Creatures as Characters or Society; Racial tendencies can be included in the body content if known or popularly assumed).  Most priority creatures are present on the current WotC Index posting by Draco.
Please include fauna that you like, including invertebrates and aquatic or exotic races (designated either as animal, ooze or vermin), and any flora that you think would have specifically stat-worthy concept basis - but otherwise exclude plants and fungi.  Please don't give us a walking, talking carnivorous plant - go the Prehistorium instead.
Our index should be alphabetical by popular genus/species name, each with its separate stat (so no "Super Predator" listing) - including name, CR, Environment, and Category (type of dino or prim = ie, Carnosaur, Sauropod, Avian, Herd Animal, Wild Beast, etc. - I will post these choices soon and describe each)
Good?  Also, I liked the dinos you posted at first glance, but didn't really get a chance to dig at them.  I will look at them tonight.  If Rappy turns me down over here, I am screwed - I know it.  I may just cry, to be honest.     I don't know how I am going to get bhu over here either.
-will


----------



## Cleon (Oct 10, 2009)

xidoraven said:


> Okay, this was the primary thing I wanted to raise, and everything else was second after this thought: Megaraptor is actually not in the same genus as Velociraptor, Deinonychus, or Utahraptor at all - it is actually a closer relative to Spinosaurus, a large carnosaur.  The claw is on the front appendages because it is not even the same evolutionary framework as the famed hind-leg 'raptor claw'.




No disagreement there, although in wizards' defense that was not common knowledge when they were statting up their version of Megaraptor as an oversized Dromeosaur.

Anyhow, I tried to resolve this problem by doing two takes on "Megaraptor", one as an oversized dromeosaur like an exaggerated _Utahraptor _ (post #4) and the other as the Spinosaurus/Baryonyx formed version it probably was in life (post #6).



xidoraven said:


> Okay, so now to business.  First off, wow - you came in with a bang.  I wasn't expecting a reply so quickly, though I should have.




Well they were all creatures I had sitting on my hard drive, so it was just a question of doing some cut-and-paste and adding time periods.

I've got a few more somewhere on my computer, but a few of the older ones are in 3.0 format so will need some tweaking.



xidoraven said:


> I was going to make a second posting to create an index of creatures after my first, but I will instead have to shift the info on the first posting elsewhere and post it there instead (*UNLESS* of course you would like to be the archivist in charge of keeping an up to date Index posting in your posting of #2, and shift one dinosaur down).




I think you'd better do the indexing, since you know what you want from it. Perhaps you should stick it in the Ultimate Homebrew Index, or at least have a link to it in their.



xidoraven said:


> So to make it clear and taking in your comments, there are a few things every posting about a dino/prim should have:
> 
> *SNIP*




OK, that all looks pretty good.

One question though, what do we do about "non-historical prehistoric beasts". Things like man-eating pterodacytls with a 60 foot wingspan, which never existed in reality but are very common in fiction.

Obviously, we can't have an actual era or scientific name for them, since they never actually existed.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 10, 2009)

Okay, before I post some more dinosaurs, I think I'll add a few words of explanation.

You may note that the previous prehistoric beasts had "Redux" or "Nova" after their names. Those with Redux are reworkings of prehistoric monsters from the SRD, those with "Nova" are new creations that are not based on the SRD, although some of the ones I'll be posting are partly derived from AD&D prehistoric beasts.

One of the changes I made was to give most of the dinosaurs and other prehistoric reptiles an Intelligence of 1. There's no evidence to justify giving most archosaurs the same Intelligence as a mammal, although I did relent on the more advanced theropods like _Tyrannosaurus_ and _Velociraptor_, an Int of 2, since they had somewhat bigger brains (although they still weren't impressive compared to a wolf or primate).

Some of the stats are a bit exaggerated for effect. For example, the sauropods (if I get around to finishing them) have a weak but effective bite attack, so an enraged _Brontosaurus_ can reach into a tree and chew your PCs too death just like one did in King Kong. They also have a few more Hit Dice than most mammals their size do.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 10, 2009)

Okay, here's the prehistoric creatures I have lying around ready for posting. They are.

_Allosaurus_ - because it's my favourite dinosaur.

_Pliosaurus_ - for when you want an ancient marine reptile with more bite than _Elasmosaurus_.

Sauropods - this covers a wide ranges of sizes and build plans of sauropoda and its smaller ancestors, from a 12-foot _Messospondylus_ to truly collossal 100+ ton behemoths such as _Argentinosaurus_.

Finally, I'll present stats for... crocodiles!

I worked these up because I noticed that the SRD giant crocodile is rather weak compared to the regular crocodile. Its stats are more appropriate for a Croc advanced to Large size than a Huge one.

So, I decided to downgrade the SRD "giant crocodile" to a Large-sized animal and brewed up a version with stats more suitable for a Huge prehistoric reptile such as _Sarcosuchus_ or _Deinosuchus_.

I also added a "death roll" special attack to the crocodile, since I didn't see how the poor thing could do without it, together with the ability to locate motion in the water, since real-world Crocs  actually possess such a sense.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 10, 2009)

*Allosaurus*

*Allosaurus Nova*
*Late Jurassic (155-145 MYA)*
Large Animal
*Hit Dice:* 10d8+50 (95 hp)
*Initiative:* +2
*Speed:* 50 ft. (10 squares)
*Armor Class:* 17 (–1 size, +2 Dex, +6 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 15
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +7/+17
*Attack:* Bite +12 melee (2d6+6)
*Full Attack:* Bite +12 melee (2d6+6) and claws +7 melee (1d6+3)
*Space/Reach:* 10 ft./5 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Improved grab, swallow whole
*Special Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +12, Ref +9, Will +5
*Abilities:* Str 23, Dex 15, Con 21, Int 1, Wis 15, Cha 10
*Skills:* Hide +6* [_+10 in undergrowth_], Listen +9, Spot +9, Survival +9
*Feats:* Endurance, Power Attack, Run, Track
*Environment:* Warm forests or plains
*Organization:* Solitary, pair or pack (3-12)
*Challenge Rating:* 5
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 11-12 HD (Large); 13-24 HD (Huge); 25–30 HD (Gargantuan)
*Level Adjustment:* —

An _Allosaurus_ is a classically built predatory dinosaur, with a large head full of serrated teeth and two short but powerful forelimbs ending in 3-fingered hands for grasping prey.

A typical _Allosaurus_ stands about 8 feet tall, with a total length of 25 feet, and weighs about 2500 pounds. They can grow considerably bigger than this, and some of its larger relatives may rival a _Tyrannosaurus_ in size.

*Combat*
An _Allosaurus_ strikes fast and hard, often from ambush. They usually charge in with their bite attack, and then tries to grapple with its foreclaws and strikes repeatedly with power-attack bite attacks. Against particularly large opponents they attempt to circle around to make hit-and-run attacks against their flanks.

*Improved Grab (Ex):* To use this ability, an _Allosaurus_ must hit with its bite or claws attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.

If it wins the grapple check with a bite attack, it establishes a hold and can try to swallow the foe the following round. If it wins with its claws attack it can full-attack the held opponent with both its bite and claws at their full +12 attack bonus.

*Swallow Whole (Ex): *an _Allosaurus_ can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of up to two sizes smaller by making a successful grapple check. The swallowed creature takes 1d10+6 points of bludgeoning damage and 8 points of acid damage per round from the _Allosaurus_’s gizzard. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal 25 points of damage to the gizzard (AC 13). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out.
*
Skills
*An _Allosaurus_ has a +4 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, Spot, and Survival checks.

*Its racial bonus to Hide increases to +8 when it is in thick undergrowth.

*A Big Allosaurus*
Huge Animal
*Hit Dice:* 15d8+90 (157 hp)
*Initiative:* +1
*Speed:* 50 ft. (10 squares)
*Armor Class:* 18 (–2 size, +1 Dex, +9 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 17
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +11/+27
*Attack:* Bite +17 melee (3d6+8/19-20)
*Full Attack:* Bite +17 melee (3d6+8/19-20) and claws +12 melee (1d8+4)
*Space/Reach:* 15 ft./10 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Improved grab, swallow whole
*Special Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +15, Ref +10, Will +9
*Abilities:* Str 27, Dex 13, Con 23, Int 1, Wis 15, Cha 10
*Skills:* Hide +6* [_+10 in undergrowth_], Listen +9, Spot +10, Survival +9
*Feats:* Endurance, Improved Critical (bite), Iron Will, Power Attack, Run, Track
*Environment:* Warm forests or plains
*Organization:* Solitary, pair or pack (3-12)
*Challenge Rating:* 7
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 16-24 HD (Huge); 25–30 HD (Gargantuan)
*Level Adjustment:* —

10 feet high and 35 feet long, weighing around 6000 pounds. This represents the old AD&D 15 Hit Dice _Allosaurus_.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 10, 2009)

*Pliosaurus*

*Pliosaurus Nova*
*Late Jurassic (160-150 MYA)*
Huge Animal
*Hit Dice:* 10d8+60 (105 hp)
*Initiative:* +2
*Speed:* 20 ft. (4 squares), swim 50 ft.
*Armor Class:* 13 (–2 size, +2 Dex, +3 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 11
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +7/+22
*Attack:* Bite +14 melee (2d8+12)
*Full Attack:* Bite +14 melee (2d8+12)
*Space/Reach:* 15 ft./10 ft. (10 ft. with bite)
*Special Attacks:* Improved grab, swallow whole
*Special Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +15, Ref +9, Will +4
*Abilities:* Str 26, Dex 14, Con 22, Int 1, Wis 13, Cha 9
*Skills:* Hide –4*, Listen +4, Spot +9, Swim +16
*Feats:* Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Weapon Focus (bite)
*Environment:* Warm aquatic
*Organization:* Solitary, pair, or herd (5–8)
*Challenge Rating:* 7
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 11–20 HD (Huge); 21–30 HD (Gargantuan)
*Level Adjustment:* —

These relatives of _Elasmosaurus_ have short necks and massive heads crammed with large teeth. A typical _Pliosaurus _is 30 feet long, with a head about 6 feet long, and weighs about 10,000 pounds.

These stats can be used for other species of marine reptile with a similar body plan, such as _Liopleurodon_ (155-160 MYA) or _Kronosaurus_ (120-100 MYA), which may not have been closely related to _Pliosaurus_ but were probably similar to it in their habits.

*Combat
*A _Pliosaurus _is aggressive and attacks anything it notices. The creature is strong, fast, and highly maneuverable, able to turn quickly and lunge at prey.

*Improved Grab (Ex):* To use this ability, a _Pliosaurus _must hit an opponent of up to one size smaller with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can try to swallow the foe the following round.

*Swallow Whole (Ex): *A _Pliosaurus _can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of up to two sizes smaller by making a successful grapple check. The swallowed creature takes 2d8+8 points of bludgeoning damage and 8 points of acid damage per round from the _Pliosaurus’s_ gizzard. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal 25 points of damage to the gizzard (AC 12). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out.

A Huge _Pliosaurus's _gizzard can hold 2 Medium, 8 Small, 32 Tiny, or 128 Diminutive or smaller opponents. *

Skills
*A _Pliosaurus _has a +8 racial bonus on Swim checks. It can always choose to take 10 on a Jump or Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.

* A _Pliosaurus _has a +8 racial bonus on Hide checks in water.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 10, 2009)

*Sauropods*

*Sauropods*
*Sauropods: Early Jurassic to Late Cretaceous (190-65 MYA)*
*Prosauropods: Early Jurassic to Late Cretaceous (220-185 MYA)
*
Sauropods are immense reptiles with elephantine bodies, tiny heads and long necks and tails. A classic example is _Brontosaurus_, or _Apatosaurus_ as it is more properly called. Other varieties of sauropod will be treated as variations on the _Brontosaurus_, which will be considered a "generic sauropod".

*Brontosaurus (Apatosaurus)
*Huge Animal
*Hit Dice:* 16d8+112 (184 hp)
*Initiative:* –1
*Speed:* 30 ft. (6 squares)
*Armor Class:* 18 (–2 size, –1 Dex, +11 natural), touch 7, flat-footed 18
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +12/+29
*Attack:* tail +20 melee (2d8+13) or kick +19 melee (1d8+9) or bite +19 melee (1d8+4)
*Full Attack:* tail +20 melee (2d8+13) and bite +14 melee (1d8+4); or 2 kicks +19 melee (1d8+9)
*Space/Reach:* 15 ft./10 ft. (bite 15 ft., tail 30 ft.)
*Special Attacks:* Trample 3d8+13
*Special Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +19, Ref +9, Will +6
*Abilities:* Str 29, Dex 9, Con 25, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 7
*Skills:* Listen +13, Spot +12
*Feats:* Ability Focus (trample), Alertness, Diehard, Endurance, Great Fortitude, Weapon Focus (tail)
*Environment:* Temperate and warm plains or forests
*Organization:* Solitary, pair, family (3-12) or herd (10–60)
*Challenge Rating:* 8
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 17–24 HD (Huge); 25-35 HD (Gargantuan); 36–48 HD (Colossal)
*Level Adjustment:* —

The above stats represent a smallish _Brontosaurus_ with a total length of about 50 feet, weighing in the region of 20,000 pounds. Some sauropods grow much larger.
*
Combat
*Sauropods are not terribly aggressive, but will defend themselves if attacked, usually using their massive whiplike tails or simply trampling smaller enemies. They can also rear up on their hind legs and come smashing down upon opponents with their forefeet. A sauropod can bite, but this is not its preferred means of attack.

*Trample (Ex):* Reflex half DC 29. The save DC is Strength-based.

*Lesser Sauropods and Quadrupedal Prosauropods*
 Some sauropods are smaller than the Huge-sized specimens given above, these are mostly juveniles of larger species, but the stats can be used for unusually small species such as the 30-foot long _Nigersaurus_ or hypothetical "pygmy sauropods".

These stats can also be used for some of the sauropods' primitive relatives, the Prosauropoda. Some of the largest Prosauropods, such as _Riojasaurus_ and _Kotasaurus_ were quadrupedal, with the largest examples being 30-40 feet long. Most would use the stats of a Large standard sauropod, with the biggest individuals (up to ~40-45 feet and 8 tons or so) using the stats for a 16-21 hit dice standard Sauropod of Huge size.

Most Prosauropods, however, walked on two legs and had sizeable claws on their hands, presumably for grasping food and fighting off predators and have different stats as detailed below under* Bipedal Prosauropods*. Such animals ranged in length from about 5 feet (_Thecodontosaurus_) to 30 feet (_Plateosaurus_). Note that some of these bipedal forms may technically be extremely primitive sauropods (like _Anchisaurus_) or intermediates between basal theropods and prosauropods (like _Saturnalia_) rather than true Prosauropoda

Some Prosauropods had sharp teeth and may have been omnivorous, supplementing a primarily vegetable diet with small animals and carrion.

Hatchling sauropods and Prosauropoda would have been less than Small-sized, stats for these are not provided since they would be too small to pose any risk to adventurers.

*Small* *Sauropod* *(Infant)*
Small Animal
*Hit* *Dice:* 2d8+4 (13 hp)
*Initiative:* +0
*Speed:* 30 ft. (6 squares)
*Armor* *Class:* 15 (+1 size, +4 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 15
*Base* *Attack/Grapple:* +1/–2
*Attack:* tail +3 melee (1d6+1) or kick +3 melee (1d3+1) or bite +3 melee (1d3)
*Full* *Attack:* tail +3 melee (1d6+1) and bite –2 melee (1d3); or 2 kicks +3 melee (1d3+1)
*Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft.
*Special* *Attacks:* —
*Special* *Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +5, Ref +3, Will +1
*Abilities:* Str 13, Dex 11, Con 15, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 7
*Skills:* Listen +6, Spot +5
*Feats:* Alertness
*Environment:* Temperate and warm plains or forests
*Organization:* Solitary, pair, family (3-12) or herd (10–60)
*Challenge* *Rating:* ½
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 3 HD (Small); 4-7 HD (Medium); 8-15 HD (Large); 16–24 HD (Huge); 25-35 HD (Gargantuan); 36–48 HD (Colossal)
*Level* *Adjustment:* —

The above statistics can be used to represent a very young infant sauropod or an adolescent quadrupedal Prosauropod_._

A Small-sized sauropod typically ranges from 5 to 7 feet long and weighs between 25 and 60 pounds.

*Medium Sauropod (Juvenile)*
Medium Animal
*Hit Dice:* 4d8+12 (30 hp)
*Initiative:* –1
*Speed:* 30 ft. (6 squares)
*Armor Class:* 15 (–1 Dex, +6 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 15
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +3/+6
*Attack:* tail +6 melee (1d8+4) or kick +6 melee (1d4+3) or bite +6 melee (1d4+1)
*Full Attack:* tail +6 melee (1d8+4) and bite +1 melee (1d4+1); or 2 kicks +6 melee (1d4+3)
*Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft. (bite 5 ft., tail 10 ft.)
*Special Attacks:* —
*Special Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +7, Ref +3, Will +2
*Abilities:* Str 17, Dex 9, Con 17, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 7
*Skills:* Listen +7, Spot +6
*Feats:* Alertness, Endurance
*Environment:* Temperate and warm plains or forests
*Organization:* Solitary, pair, family (3-12) or herd (10–60)
*Challenge Rating:* 2
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 5-7 HD (Medium); 8-15 HD (Large); 16–24 HD (Huge); 25-35 HD (Gargantuan); 36–48 HD (Colossal)
*Level Adjustment:* —

The above statistics can be used to represent a young juvenile sauropod or an adolescent quadrupedal Prosauropod_._

A Medium-sized sauropod ranges from 7 to 15 feet long and typically weighs between 200 and 500 pounds.

*Large Sauropod (Nigersaurus)*
Large Animal
*Hit Dice:* 8d8+40 (76 hp)
*Initiative:* –1
*Speed:* 30 ft. (6 squares)
*Armor Class:* 16 (–1 size, –1 Dex, +8 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 16
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +6/+15
*Attack:* tail +11 melee (1d10+7) or kick +10 melee (1d6+5) or bite +10 melee (1d6+2)
*Full Attack:* tail +11 melee (1d10+7) and bite +5 melee (1d6+2); or 2 kicks +10 melee (1d6+5)
*Space/Reach:* 10 ft./5 ft. (bite 10 ft., tail 20 ft.)
*Special Attacks:* —
*Special Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +11, Ref +5, Will +3
*Abilities:* Str 21, Dex 9, Con 21, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 7
*Skills:* Listen +9, Spot +8
*Feats:* Alertness, Endurance, Weapon Focus (tail)
*Environment:* Temperate and warm plains or forests
*Organization:* Solitary, pair, family (3-12) or herd (10–60)
*Challenge Rating:* 4
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 9-15 HD (Large); 16–24 HD (Huge); 25-35 HD (Gargantuan); 36–48 HD (Colossal)
*Level Adjustment:* —

The above stats can be used for an adolescent sauropod or a quadrupedal Prosauropod, such as _Riojasaurus__._

Large sauropods range between 12 and 30 feet long and weigh between 500 pounds to 2 tons.

*Bipedal Prosauropods*
 See *here*.

*Advanced Sauropods*
Sauropods include the largest animals that ever walked the land, with some Brachiosaurs and Titanosaurs reaching weights of over a hundred tons.

An advanced sauropod normally chooses among the feats Awesome Blow, Damage Reduction (often multiple), Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (tail or kick), Great Constitution (often multiple), Power Attack and Snatch. Here are some typical examples:

*Gargantuan Sauropod (Brontosaurus)*
Gargantuan Animal
*Hit Dice:* 25d8+225 (337 hp)
*Initiative:* –1
*Speed:* 30 ft. (6 squares)
*Armor Class:* 20 (–4 size, –1 Dex, +15 natural), touch 5, flat-footed 20
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +18/+43
*Attack:* tail +28 melee (3d8+19) or kick +27 melee (2d6+13) or bite +27 melee (2d6+6)
*Full Attack:* tail +28 melee (3d8+19) and bite +22 melee (2d6+6) or 2 kicks +27 melee (2d6+13)
*Space/Reach:* 20 ft./15 ft. (bite 20 ft., tail 40 ft.)
*Special Attacks:* Trample 4d8+19 (DC37) 12+13+12
*Special Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +25, Ref +13, Will +9
*Abilities:* Str 37, Dex 9, Con 29, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 7
*Skills:* Listen +15, Spot +15
*Feats:* Ability Focus (trample), Awesome Blow, Alertness, Diehard, Endurance, Great Fortitude, Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (tail)
*Challenge Rating:* 12

The above statistics can be used for adults of many species of sauropod, including _Brontosaurus_.

Gargantuan sauropods range between 50 and 120 feet long and weigh 16-64 tons.

*Colossal Sauropod (Argentinosaurus)
*Colossal Animal
*Hit Dice:* 36d8+396 (558 hp)
*Initiative:* –1
*Speed:* 30 ft. (6 squares)
*Armor Class:* 21 (–8 size, –1 Dex, +20 natural), touch 1, flat-footed 21
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +27/+60
*Attack:* tail +37 melee (4d8+25/19-20) or kick +36 melee (3d6+17) or bite +36 melee (3d6+8)
*Full Attack:* tail +37 melee (4d8+25/19-20) and bite +36 melee (3d6+8) or 2 kicks +36 melee (3d6+17)
*Space/Reach:* 30 ft./20 ft. (bite 30 ft., tail 60 ft.)
*Special Attacks:* Trample 5d8+25 (DC47)
*Special Qualities:* Damage reduction 9/–, low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +33, Ref +19, Will +13
*Abilities:* Str 45, Dex 9, Con 33, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 7
*Skills:* Listen +21, Spot +20
*Feats:* Ability Focus (trample), Awesome Blow, Alertness, Diehard, Endurance, Great Fortitude, Improved Critical (tail), Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (tail)
*Epic Feats: *Damage Reduction ×3
*Challenge Rating:* 15

The above statistics can be used for the largest genera of sauropods, such as _Argentinosaurus_.

Colossal sauropods are between 100 and 150 feet long and weigh 64-160 tons.

*Maximized Sauropod
*Colossal Animal
*Hit Dice:* 48d8+576 (792 hp)
*Initiative:* –1
*Speed:* 30 ft. (6 squares)
*Armor Class:* 21 (–8 size, –1 Dex, +20 natural), touch 1, flat-footed 21
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +36/+69
*Attack:* tail +46 melee (4d8+25/19-20) or kick +45 melee (3d6+17) or bite +45 melee (3d6+8)
*Full Attack:* tail +46 melee (4d8+25/19-20) and bite +45 melee (3d6+8) or 2 kicks +45 melee (3d6+17)
*Space/Reach:* 30 ft./20 ft. (bite 30 ft., tail 60 ft.)
*Special Attacks:* Trample 5d8+25 (DC53)
*Special Qualities:* Damage reduction 15/–, low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +40, Ref +25, Will +17
*Abilities:* Str 45, Dex 9, Con 34, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 7
*Skills:* Listen +27, Spot +26
*Feats:* Ability Focus (trample), Awesome Blow, Alertness, Diehard, Endurance, Great Fortitude, Improved Critical (tail), Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack, Snatch, Weapon Focus (tail)
*Epic Feats: *Damage Reduction ×5, Great Constitution
*Challenge Rating:* 18

*Other Types of Sauropods*

*Diplodocids*
 Diplodocidsare longer and thinner than a standard sauropod such as _Brontosaurus_, a 16 HD specimen being about 70-80 feet long. Their tails are even more whiplike than a regular sauropod's. Apply the following changes to the base sauropod: –4 Strength, increase the reach of its bite and tail attacks by 50%.

Note that juvenile diplodocids should probably have proportionally shorter necks and tails, so Large-sized adolescents would have a 15 foot bite reach and a 25 foot tail reach, while Medium-sized and smaller specimens would have a standard sauropod's reach.

A basic _Diplodocus_ has the following stats:

*Diplodocus
*Huge Animal
*Hit Dice:* 16d8+112 (184 hp)
*Initiative:* –1
*Speed:* 30 ft. (6 squares)
*Armor Class:* 18 (–2 size, –1 Dex, +11 natural), touch 7, flat-footed 18
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +12/+27
*Attack:* tail +18 melee (2d8+10/19-20) or kick +17 melee (1d8+7) or bite +17 melee (1d8+3)
*Full Attack:* tail +18 melee (2d8+10) and bite +12 melee (1d8+3); or 2 kicks +17 melee (1d8+7)
*Space/Reach:* 15 ft./10 ft. (bite 20 ft., tail 45 ft.)
*Special Attacks:* Trample 3d8+10 (DC27)
*Special Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +19, Ref +9, Will +6
*Abilities:* Str 25, Dex 9, Con 25, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 7
*Skills:* Listen +13, Spot +12
*Feats:* Ability Focus (trample), Alertness, Diehard, Endurance, Great Fortitude, Weapon Focus (tail)
*Environment:* Temperate and warm plains or forests
*Organization:* Solitary, pair, family (3-12) or herd (10–60)
*Challenge Rating:* 8
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 17–24 HD (Huge); 25-35 HD (Gargantuan); 36–48 HD (Colossal)
*Level Adjustment:* —

*Long-Necked Sauropods*
Some sauropods had extravagantly extended necks even for this long-necked group of dinosaurs. The majority of long-necked sauropods, like _Barosaurus_ had necks a little shorter their tails, but one example, _Mamenchisaurus_ was about 70 feet long with a neck 30-35 feet long - nearly half its entire length!

Note that like many sauropods, many long-necked sauropods would have been Gargantuan animals as mature adults, 80-100 foot long creatures weighing 20-40 tons.

To create a long-necked sauropod, simply take a standard sauropod and give it a bite reach equal to its tail reach.

A basic long-necked sauropod has the following stats:
 
*Mamenchisaurus
*Huge Animal
*Hit* *Dice:* 16d8+112 (184 hp)
*Initiative:* –1
*Speed:* 30 ft. (6 squares)
*Armor* *Class:* 18 (–2 size, –1 Dex, +11 natural), touch 7, flat-footed 18
*Base* *Attack/Grapple:* +12/+29
*Attack:* tail +20 melee (2d8+13) or kick +19 melee (1d8+9) or bite +19 melee (1d8+4)
*Full* *Attack:* tail +20 melee (2d8+13) and bite +14 melee (1d8+4); or 2 kicks +19 melee (1d8+9)
*Space/Reach:* 15 ft./10 ft. (bite 30 ft., tail 30 ft.)
*Special* *Attacks:* Trample 3d8+13
*Special* *Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +19, Ref +9, Will +6
*Abilities:* Str 29, Dex 9, Con 25, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 7
*Skills:* Listen +13, Spot +12
*Feats:* Ability Focus (trample), Alertness, Diehard, Endurance, Great Fortitude, Weapon Focus (tail)
*Environment:* Temperate and warm plains or forests
*Organization:* Solitary, pair, family (3-12) or herd (10–60)
*Challenge* *Rating:* 8
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 17–24 HD (Huge); 25-35 HD (Gargantuan); 36–48 HD (Colossal)
*Level* *Adjustment:* —

 *Brachiosaurs*
A _Brachiosaurus_ has a sturdy body, with a shorter tail and longer forelegs than other sauropods. This group includes massive species that grow Gargantuan and Colossal size, such as _Giraffatitan brancai_.  Apply the following changes to the base sauropod: +4 Strength, bite reach equals the sauropods's Space, tail reach is twice the base reach, Weapon Focus is in kick instead of tail. Juveniles and adults of less than Huge size have both bite reach and tail reach equal to their Space.

Brachiosaur stats can also be used for other types of sauropod with bulky bodies and comparatively short necks and tails, such as _Barapasaurus_.

A basic _Brachiosaurus_ has the following stats:

*Brachiosaurus
*Huge Animal
*Hit Dice:* 16d8+112 (184 hp)
*Initiative:* –1
*Speed:* 30 ft. (6 squares)
*Armor Class:* 18 (–2 size, –1 Dex, +11 natural), touch 7, flat-footed 18
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +12/+31
*Attack:* kick +22 melee (1d10+11) or tail +21 melee (2d6+16) or bite +21 melee (1d8+5)
*Full Attack:* 2 kicks +22 melee (1d10+11); or tail +21 melee (2d6+16) and bite +16 melee (1d8+5)
*Space/Reach:* 15 ft./10 ft. (bite 15 ft., tail 20 ft.)
*Special Attacks:* Trample 3d8+16 (DC31)
*Special Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +19, Ref +9, Will +6
*Abilities:* Str 33, Dex 9, Con 25, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 7
*Skills:* Listen +13, Spot +12
*Feats:* Ability Focus (trample), Alertness, Diehard, Endurance, Great Fortitude, Weapon Focus (kick)
*Environment:* Temperate and warm plains or forests
*Organization:* Solitary, pair, family (3-12) or herd (10–60)
*Challenge Rating:* 8
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 17–24 HD (Huge); 25-35 HD (Gargantuan); 36–48 HD (Colossal)
*Level Adjustment:* —

*Armoured Sauropods*
Some sauropods had small bony plates in their skin and a row of defensive spikes down their spines, a typical genus is _Ampelosaurus_. Use a base sauropod with the following changes: –2 Dexterity, reduce speed to 20 ft., add Damage Resistance 5/– plus 1/– per 4 Hit Dice.

Armoured Sauropods are usually fairly small for sauropods, seldom exceeding Huge size. Their armour may be needed to compensate for their smaller size.

A basic _Ampelosaurus_ has the following stats:

 _*Ampelosaurus*_
Huge Animal
*Hit Dice:* 16d8+112 (184 hp)
*Initiative:* –2
*Speed:* 20 ft. (4 squares)
*Armor Class:* 18 (–2 size, –1 Dex, +11 natural), touch 7, flat-footed 18
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +12/+29
*Attack:* kick +22 melee (1d10+11) or tail +21 melee (2d6+16) or bite +21 melee (1d8+5)
*Full Attack:* 2 kicks +22 melee (1d10+11); or tail +21 melee (2d6+16) and bite +16 melee (1d8+5)
*Space/Reach:* 15 ft./10 ft. (bite 15 ft., tail 20 ft.)
*Special Attacks:* Trample 3d8+16 (DC31)
*Special Qualities:* Damage reduction 9/–, Low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +19, Ref +8, Will +6
*Abilities:* Str 29, Dex 7, Con 25, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 7
*Skills:* Listen +13, Spot +12
*Feats:* Ability Focus (trample), Alertness, Diehard, Endurance, Great Fortitude, Weapon Focus (kick)
*Environment:* Temperate and warm plains or forests
*Organization:* Solitary, pair, family (3-12) or herd (10–60)
*Challenge Rating:* 8
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 17–24 HD (Huge); 25-35 HD (Gargantuan); 36–48 HD (Colossal)
*Level Adjustment:* —


----------



## Cleon (Oct 10, 2009)

*Building a Better Crocodile*

*Crocodile Redux
*Medium Animal
*Hit Dice: *3d8+9 (22 hp)
*Initiative: *+1
*Speed: *20 ft. (4 squares), swim 30 ft.
*Armor Class: *15 (+1 Dex, +4 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 14
*Base Attack/Grapple: *+2/+6
*Attack: *Bite +6 melee (1d6+4) or tail slap +6 melee (1d10+2)
*Full Attack: *Bite +6 melee (1d6+4) and tail slap +1 melee (1d10+2)
*Space/Reach: *5 ft./5 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Death roll (1d6+6), improved grab
*Special Qualities: *Hold breath, low-light vision, 60 ft. ripplesense
*Saves: *Fort +6, Ref +4, Will +2
*Abilities: *Str 19, Dex 12, Con 17, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
*Skills: *Hide +7* [_+11 in water, +21 when mostly submerged_], Listen +4, Spot +4, Survival +2, Swim +12
*Feats: *Alertness, Skill Focus (Hide)
*Environment: *Warm marshes
*Organization: *Solitary or colony (6–11)
*Challenge Rating: *2
*Advancement: *4–6 HD (Medium), 7-12 HD (Large)
*Level Adjustment: *—

Crocodiles are aggressive predators 11 to 12 feet long. They lie mostly submerged in rivers or marshes, with only their eyes and nostrils showing, waiting for prey to come within reach.

*Combat*
Crocodiles seek to establish a hold upon an opponent with its mouth and drag it into deep water, attempting to pin it to the bottom until it drowns. Opponents that resist will be hit by death roll attacks.

A threatened crocodile defends itself with its jaws and tail. They can not attack the same opponent with both attacks, since these natural weapons threaten opposite ends of the crocodile.

*Death Roll (Ex):* A swimming crocodile can violently thrash its body to tear up any creature it holds in its jaws, dealing 1d6+6 damage if it succeeds on a grapple check.

*Improved Grab (Ex):* To use this ability, a crocodile must hit with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it can follow up with normal grapple actions or its Death Roll special attack.

*Hold Breath (Ex):* A crocodile can hold its breath for a number of rounds equal to 4 × its Constitution score before it risks drowning.

*Ripplesense (Ex):* A crocodile can detect disturbances in the water using vibration-sensitive pits in its scales. This functions like blindsense (q.v.), except the crocodile can only sense the location of creatures through water. It must itself be in contact with the water, and the creatures must be moving.

 *Skills
*A crocodile has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line. *A crocodile gains a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks when in the water. Further, a crocodile can lie in the water with only its eyes and nostrils showing, gaining a +10 cover bonus on Hide checks.

*Notes:* The SRD version's skill modifiers did not add up - it worked out to Hide 3(+1Dex, +3 Skill Focus), Listen 1(+1 Wis +2 Alertness), Spot 1(+1 Wis +2 Alertness), Swim 0(+4 Str, +8 racial), so one skill rank is missing. I decided a point in Survival was appropriate.

 *Crocodile, Large
*Large Animal
*Hit Dice: *7d8+35 (66 hp)
*Initiative: *+1
*Speed: *20 ft. (4 squares), swim 30 ft.
*Armor Class: *17 (–1 size, +1 Dex, +7 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 16
*Base Attack/Grapple: *+5/+17
*Attack: *Bite +12 melee (1d8+8) or tail slap +12 melee (1d12+4)
*Full Attack: *Bite +12 melee (1d8+8) or tail slap +7 melee (1d12+4)
*Space/Reach: *10 ft./5 ft. (10 ft. with tail)
*Special Attacks:* Death roll (1d8+12), improved grab
*Special Qualities: *Hold breath, low-light vision, 60 ft. ripplesense
*Saves: *Fort +10, Ref +6, Will +3
*Abilities: *Str 27, Dex 12, Con 21, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
*Skills: *Hide +5* [_+9 in water, +19 when mostly submerged_], Listen +5, Spot +5, Survival +2, Swim +16
*Feats: *Alertness, Endurance, Skill Focus (Hide)
*Environment: *Warm marshes
*Organization: *Solitary or colony (6–11)
*Challenge Rating: *4
*Advancement: *8–12 HD (Large)
*Level Adjustment: *—

These creatures usually live in salt water and can be more than 20 feet long.

Large crocodiles fight and behave like their smaller cousins.

 *Crocodile, Giant
*Huge Animal
*Hit Dice: *13d8+91 (149 hp)
*Initiative: *+0
*Speed: *20 ft. (4 squares), swim 30 ft.
*Armor Class: *18 (–2 size, +10 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 18
*Base Attack/Grapple: *+9/+29
*Attack: *Bite +20 melee (2d6+12) or tail slap +19 melee (2d8+6)
*Full Attack: *Bite +20 melee (2d6+12) or tail slap +14 melee (2d8+6)
*Space/Reach: *15 ft./10 ft. (20 ft. with tail)
*Special Attacks:* Death roll (2d6+18), improved grab
*Special Qualities: *Hold breath, low-light vision, 60 ft. ripplesense
*Saves: *Fort +15, Ref +8, Will +5
*Abilities: *Str 35, Dex 10, Con 25, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
*Skills: *Hide +5* [_+9 in water, +19 when mostly submerged_], Listen +6, Spot +6, Survival +2, Swim +20
*Feats: *Alertness, Endurance, Power Attack, Skill Focus (Hide), Weapon Focus (bite)
*Environment: *Warm marshes
*Organization: *Solitary or colony (6–11)
*Challenge Rating: *6
*Advancement: *14–24 HD (Huge)
*Level Adjustment: *—

These huge creatures can be more than 40 feet long, they often prey upon dire animals and dinosaurs.

 *Dire Crocodiles
*I applied a homebrewed "Dire Animal" template to my revised crocodile and giant crocodile and came up with the following (I tweaked the tail-reach to match the Large crocodile redux).

Since I applied the template to different base creatures the Advancements don't match up (there's a 15-20 HD gap between the regular dire crocodile and the giant dire crocodile), I was tempted to tweak them to close the Advancement gap but decided there is no need to do so because they are dire forms of different genera (one being a dire form of a regular crocodile á la the Nile crocodile, the other being a dire version of a prehistoric dinosaur-eater.

 *Dire Crocodile
*Large Animal (Dire)
*Hit Dice: *7d8+42 (73 hp)
*Initiative: *+1
*Speed: *20 ft. (4 squares), swim 30 ft.
*Armor Class: *18 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +8 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 17
*Base Attack/Grapple: *+5/+19
*Attack: *Bite +14 melee (2d6+10) or tail slap +14 melee (1d12+5)
*Full Attack: *Bite +14 melee (2d6+10) and tail slap +9 melee (1d12+5)
*Space/Reach: *10 ft./5 ft. (10 ft. with tail)
*Special Attacks:* Death roll (2d6+15), improved grab
*Special Qualities: *Hold breath, low-light vision, 60 ft. ripplesense
*Saves: *Fort +11, Ref +6, Will +6
*Abilities: *Str 31, Dex 12, Con 23, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 6
*Skills: *Hide +5* [_+9 in water, +19 when mostly submerged_], Listen +5, Spot +5, Survival +2, Swim +18
*Feats: *Alertness, Power Attack, Skill Focus (Hide)
*Environment: *Warm marshes
*Organization: *Solitary or colony (6–11)
*Challenge Rating: *5
*Advancement: *8-14 HD (Large); 15-21 HD (Huge)
*Level Adjustment: *—

*Dire Crocodile, Giant
*Huge Animal (Dire)
*Hit Dice: *21d8+168 (262 hp)
*Initiative: *+1
*Speed: *20 ft. (4 squares), swim 30 ft.
*Armor Class: *21 (–2 size,+1 Dex, +12 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 20
*Base Attack/Grapple: *+15/+37
*Attack: *Bite +28 melee (3d6+14/19-20) or tail slap +27 melee (2d8+7)
*Full Attack: *Bite +28 melee (3d6+14/19-20) or tail slap +22 melee (2d8+7)
*Space/Reach: *15 ft./10 ft. (20 ft. with tail)
*Special Attacks:* Death roll (3d6+21), improved grab
*Special Qualities: *Damage reduction 3/–, hold breath, low-light vision, 60 ft. ripplesense
*Saves: *Fort +20, Ref +13, Will +13
*Abilities: *Str 39, Dex 12, Con 27, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 6
*Skills: *Hide +9* [_+13 in water, +23 when mostly submerged_], Listen +8, Spot +8, Survival +2, Swim +22
*Feats: *Alertness, Cleave, Endurance, Improved Critical (bite), Power Attack, Skill Focus (Hide), Weapon Focus (bite)
*Epic Feat:* Damage Reduction
*Environment: *Warm marshes
*Organization: *Solitary or colony (6–11)
*Challenge Rating: *9
*Advancement: *22–42 HD (Huge); 43-63 HD (Gargantuan)
*Level Adjustment: *—


----------



## Cleon (Oct 10, 2009)

That's it for the time being. I don't believe I have any more Mesozoic fauna conversions ready for release, and I'm not sure when the mood will next take me to do some, or what prehistoric beast I'd do.

Although _Stegosaurus_ is looking tempting...

Hmm, I've just noticed that _Elasmosaurus_ is missing the standard Swim entry under Skills like it does in the SRD. I suppose I should fix that.

I'm tempted to give it and the _Pliosaurus_ the Agile Swimmer SQ I made for the Potamotherium conversion, since the tactics makes a big deal about their aquatic manoeuvrability. Maybe I'll add it later.


----------



## xidoraven (Oct 11, 2009)

Cleon said:


> One question though, what do we do about "non-historical prehistoric beasts". Things like man-eating pterodacytls with a 60 foot wingspan, which never existed in reality but are very common in fiction.
> 
> Obviously, we can't have an actual era or scientific name for them, since they never actually existed.



Fictional critters go to the Phantasy Prehistorium homebrew forum for creative liberties on the prehistoric theme.  This one will be only for reviewing and revising stats for real-history creatures, many of which have already been drafted but not finished or reviewed for balance.  I will edit an index into the first posting of this forum when I get a chance.  Things are hectic for me this weekend right now though - big interview/presentation Monday.

Update: I added an index of creatures already created which need to be reviewed and revised in many cases.  There are multiple versions with vastly different stats and abilities, and they need to be refined and a definitive balanced creature list developed - with only stat block per creature.  I have a pdf file of notes I have made for as many as I could when I first began tracking creatures for the final ecology; even these are unfinished, because of how many variations and thoughts I had about them during the project.  Many of them are extremely unbalanced or else too low or high HD for what would be expected.

I like the idea of your 'redux's...  I will have to read your statement one more time to get the difference between that and a nova, but it seems legitimate.  If it's not a real-life creature, it needs to go to the other thread though.  I like precedent, like they did in the conversion thread - it should line up well compared to other similar but contrasting animals, etc.  Anything here could be of animal, vermin, or ooze types (yes, jellyfish and some other invertebrates are oozes).  No dires, giant versions, feaux dinos, or magical beasts - those can all go to the creative thread, and are fun but not currently necessary.  Because of the campaign, however, there will be a future need for dire versions, celestial versions, and anarchic/axiomatic versions of those creatures because of the divine nature of the Nymian Beastlands (related even to the outer plane of the same name - but more fun).

So I am all for hearing about those fun fictional ideas, just not here in this thread.  <== That sounds really rude now that I have read a few of these ones posted.  It wasn't intended to - these look great, like the crocodile versions - but they should be much better suited on the other thread, and let's just stay precise, critical, and scientific here in this one.

Also just noticed your 'redux' crocodile also has a closer bite and tail damage die to what is recommended in the creature creation section, and also with primary/secondary strength bonus to damage - which is a decent balance when you consider giving it the special abilities.  Now, I know the bite&roll and others were all true, but is ripplesense an actual physical element of crocodilian perception?  It doesn't shock me if yes - it just wasn't something I had ever considered?

You might event make a listing with generic creature states like for a 'crocodile' - and say something like "These stats are adequate and comparable for any of the following creatures: genus/species, genus/etc ..." included in the body content, along with size, weight - where known languages might go on another creature with speech.  That might be helpful if someone starts getting picky for a named creature like one forum member got over Gigantosaurus one time...    lol, anyways.  It's late and that's all I've got for now.
-will


----------



## Cleon (Oct 11, 2009)

xidoraven said:


> I like the idea of your 'redux's...  I will have to read your statement one more time to get the difference between that and a nova, but it seems legitimate.  If it's not a real-life creature, it needs to go to the other thread though.  I like precedent, like they did in the conversion thread - it should line up well compared to other similar but contrasting animals, etc.  Anything here could be of animal, vermin, or ooze types (yes, jellyfish and some other invertebrates are oozes).  No dires, giant versions, feaux dinos, or magical beasts - those can all go to the creative thread, and are fun but not currently necessary.  Because of the campaign, however, there will be a future need for dire versions, celestial versions, and anarchic/axiomatic versions of those creatures because of the divine nature of the Nymian Beastlands (related even to the outer plane of the same name - but more fun).




Well the "Redux" creatures are basically monsters that already have official WotC stats which had things I didn't like (e.g. lots of Toughness feats), so I reworked them.

The "Nova" creatures are ones that either don't have WotC versions, or if they do I haven't got them, so I statted them up from scratch. Although I sometimes sought inspiration from a published monster (my _Pliosaurus_, for example, uses a fair bit of the _Elasmosaurus_).

I' don't feel having the Dire versions of the animals on a separate thread to the regular versions is a good idea, since it would surely make them harder to find for a "regular user".

As for the crocodiles, I think my take on the regular, large and giant crocodiles are pretty close to being realistic. The standard Medium croc represents a 10-12 foot long animal, a Large croc is one up to 20 feet long (about the largest size real-world living crocodiles have reliably been measured at), while the giant groc stats are suitable for the various extinct species of super-sized crocodilians, such as Sarcosuchus.



> but is ripplesense an actual physical element of crocodilian perception? It doesn't shock me if yes - it just wasn't something I had ever considered



The "ripplesense" is real and crocodilians can certainly use them to locate prey in murky or pitch black water by feeling their movements. Do a search for Crocodile _Integumentary Sense Organs_ or _Dermal Pressure Receptors_ for background on these pressure-sensitive pits. The organs may have additional functions in some species like chemical sensitivity, they're still not well understood.

I will confess that I have probably grossly exaggerated the range of a crocodile's Ripplesense in these stat. We may want to cut it to 20 feet or 30 feet.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 12, 2009)

Oh, and I forgot to thank you for the index of monster links. That looks like it was a lot of work to compile, Xidoraven.

I've already found some interesting material through it, enough to inspire me to start work on my own take on _Stegosaurus_.

If you can find the time, you seem to be missing some relevant creatures from Enworld's *Converting prehistoric animals *threads (*part 1, part 2*). For example, part one of that thread has *one* or *two* takes on _Iguanodon_ that are different from the Creature Catalogue version you posted.

Oh, and Demiurge1138 posted some excellent World of Kong conversions *here* on Enworld. I suggest you ask him if he minds you linking to them on your *Phantasy Prehistorium* thread.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 12, 2009)

After some further rummaging through your index of links, I suspect there are a few creatures that more properly belong in *Phantasy Prehistorium* rather than here, at least according to the criteria you proposed.

For example, we statted up the Giant _Titanoboa_ as an oversized version of that ancient reptile, not an accurate conversion, hence the "Giant". The SRD's giant constrictor snake is probably pretty close to a realistic _Titanoboa_.

On a different track, there's no evidence for _Microceratus_ being a colonial animal like the version on the Wizards' boards. While I like the idea of dinosaurs which live like ants, I think it should be relegated to the Phantasy thread.

Incidentally, I can think of a couple of other interesting eusocial herbivorous dinosaur from fiction that I'm tempted to convert sometime.

In Douglas Dixon's *The New Dinosaurs* there's a Pachycephalosaur which live in hanging "citadels" of brush resembling a giant version of a weaver bird's nest. One female is the breeding queen, the rest are workers, young males are warriors who defend the others using poisoned spines on their head, when the males grow old enough they lose the spines and become breeding drones for a short period, then die.

Greg Bear's *Dinosaur Summer* has "Communisaurs" or "Fork-Tails" which live in fortresses built of earth and logs. They can produce an extremely strong scent (at least the largest ones in the book did, which may suggest some kind of Queen-pheromones), and have a powerful tail armed with a pair of spikes. According to Wikipedia these are some kind of Therapsid (a mammal-like reptile), but it doesn't give any sources to confirm this was Mr Bear's intent. When I read the book I assumed they were some kind of Thyreophora (The suborder of "Armoured dinosaur" which includes such beasts as _Stegosaurus_ and _Ankylosaurus_) because of their weaponised tail. They just don't feel like Therapsids to me, since most Therapsids use their jaws as their primary weapon, few of them have "saur" in their name, and I don't recall any mention of hair or whiskers in the book (not that we know for a fact that all Therapsids had such).


----------



## xidoraven (Oct 14, 2009)

You know, those thoughts and critical reviews are just what is needed for this project, exactly as you stated: what is real, and what is imagined?  My big soap box issue is Dilophosaurus and what Jurassic Park did to that critter in our minds....  

But anyways, yeah those are all cool ideas too - I am all for creative takes on prehistoric campaigns.  I might not use everything we make here in a campaign setting I have planned, but it is fun to think about nonetheless.  My big thing is making sure the web has a decent, balanced, well-reviewed list of stats for dinosaurs and prehistoric animals (primitives or prims, and in dinos/prims - as separate from dire animals, of which there were some very real species in our past) that would also work well in my campaign ecology, which is based on an animal-intensive setting (Beastlands on a material world).

Plus, if there is a stat for it in the SRD or a publication that we could transcribe the specific creature stats and description here, that should be set as a precedent.  I understand the argument for the Megaraptor mix-up, and I don't think we should re-evaluate every creature that comes up pooping green instead of white, but for major renovations like this one, it should be made (because our artworks for them are going to be as scientifically accurate as possible within reason).

Please check out this document, which is a review of that index list and some notes I made about them and how I divided them up.  Creatures that are not the greatest combatants, have negative attack modifiers, and/or which are not known to be in any way aggressive I designated as being not Combat Ready (marked 'No' in Yes/No under 'Combat Ready').  You'll also notice I divided the creatures up as well as I could given the generalization ideas I had for simple sentient society to divide them according to their lifestyles and ecological niche, such as Longwalkers (sauropods), Walkers/Bogwalkers (hadrosaurs and plains/swamp-herbivores), Herd Animal (anything heavy and either herbivorous or moderately omnivorous, usually things that congregate in migratory herds, etc.), Hunters/Runners (sleek, quick, agile, or just streamlined and mobile dinosaurs), Aquatics, Avians, etc.  I will refine this categorization with time, and it is is really only necessary when everything is finished and compiled.

I didn't make as many notes as I ended up realizing I should have made, but I made what was necessary before I really started working on it.  But it's a start.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 14, 2009)

xidoraven said:


> You know, those thoughts and critical reviews are just what is needed for this project, exactly as you stated: what is real, and what is imagined?  My big soap box issue is Dilophosaurus and what Jurassic Park did to that critter in our minds....




No argument there! There are a a fair few other dinosaurs in Crichton's books that have imaginary additions, some more plausible than others. The chameleon Carnotaurus is the one I found the most egregious.

Cases like the JP _Dilophosaurus_ could be dealt with as two different creatures - a realistic version (Large 6 HD or so lightweight theropod), and the movie/book version (Medium 4 HD predator with venom-spit and scary frill?) for posting in the Phantasy thread. The one in the _Jurassic Park_ film was only half-grown, but I'm sure a lot of people think that's it's standard size so I'd probably stat it up as a Medium animal, despite a real-world adult _Dilophosaurus_ being 20+ feet long.

Would we call them different names, or add a fake specific name? E.g.

*Real:* _Dilophosaurus wetherilli_
*Fictional:* _Dilophosaurus nedryphagous_ "Nedry eating two-crested lizard"



xidoraven said:


> Please check out this document, which is a review of that index list and some notes I made about them and how I divided them up.  Creatures that are not the greatest combatants, have negative attack modifiers, and/or which are not known to be in any way aggressive I designated as being not Combat Ready (marked 'No' in Yes/No under 'Combat Ready').  You'll also notice I divided the creatures up as well as I could given the generalization ideas I had for simple sentient society to divide them according to their lifestyles and ecological niche, such as Longwalkers (sauropods), Walkers/Bogwalkers (hadrosaurs and plains/swamp-herbivores), Herd Animal (anything heavy and either herbivorous or moderately omnivorous, usually things that congregate in migratory herds, etc.), Hunters/Runners (sleek, quick, agile, or just streamlined and mobile dinosaurs), Aquatics, Avians, etc.  I will refine this categorization with time, and it is is really only necessary when everything is finished and compiled.




If you're aiming for a scientifically up to date version, I wouldn't call all those Hadrosaurs "Bogwalkers". While I believe some remains have been found in swamps, they were far more a plains & forest animal.

That pdf is very handy for comparing the different conversions though, and it's already shown me another dodgy entry.

"Anoplotops Ferox" is an entirely fictional dinosaur from Goodman Games' Dinosaur Planet d20 RPG. Appropriately enough, it's listen in the contents of a Monster Manual entitled _*Dinosaurs That Never Were*_. Not only that, but I don't like the stats. Str 20 is feeble for a Huge animal, its challenge rating is way too high (It looks more like a CR8 than a CR16) and its specific name shouldn't be capitalised (i.e. it should be _Anoplotops ferox_ with a small-f.) Well, at least it only has *one* Toughness feat.

Oh yes, you can see a picture of Anoplotops *here* on Goodman's website if you scroll down a bit. 

From my first look through, that's the only creature I found that never existed.

Some of the others have a few stats I don't like or are a bit too "imaginary" for my tastes, at least for inclusion in this thread. The eusocial _Microceratops_ is an example of the latter, it really belongs in Phantasy. The _Giraffatitan_ is a case of the former - L think most of its stats are fine but its CR18 is way too high. It's more like a CR12.


----------



## xidoraven (Oct 16, 2009)

Cleon said:


> No argument there! There are a a fair few other dinosaurs in Crichton's books that have imaginary additions, some more plausible than others. The chameleon Carnotaurus is the one I found the most egregious.
> 
> Cases like the JP _Dilophosaurus_ could be dealt with as two different creatures - a realistic version (Large 6 HD or so lightweight theropod), and the movie/book version (Medium 4 HD predator with venom-spit and scary frill?) for posting in the Phantasy thread. The one in the _Jurassic Park_ film was only half-grown, but I'm sure a lot of people think that's it's standard size so I'd probably stat it up as a Medium animal, despite a real-world adult _Dilophosaurus_ being 20+ feet long.



Exactly.  As for the chameleon dino, he could get away with that in the story for two reasons: the "you don't really know" factor, and the fact that they were mixing DNA to fill restructuring gaps, and who knows exactly how far that diverted from normality.  Genetically altered would definitely go under fantasy, and maybe call for a template of some form for say, a JP/Scifi hybrid themed setting.



> Would we call them different names, or add a fake specific name? E.g.
> 
> *Real:* _Dilophosaurus wetherilli_
> *Fictional:* _Dilophosaurus nedryphagous_ "Nedry eating two-crested lizard"



Definitely not anything that sounds even remotely real - I would never have known about this supposed anaplatops whatever if I hadn't gone around and done some research - and we want to avoid that here for real-world revisions (same concept as the previous thread for edition conversions).



> If you're aiming for a scientifically up to date version, I wouldn't call all those Hadrosaurs "Bogwalkers". While I believe some remains have been found in swamps, they were far more a plains & forest animal.



You're right, and I am not even going to argue with your logic - but I figured for the campaign setting I am proposing, take an entirely functional full-scale dino/prim ecology as it is and then add sentient humanoids (the only major human populations being those savage or barbarian tribes).  Suddenly big herbivores are only going to be seen in dense forests and marshes where they can stay somewhat protected and still feed.  Also, since the sentient races nearby are so simple, I went for simple terms that might be used to categorize them (by price, or by usefulness when trained).  Ie, Walker (big herbiv herd/migration dino), Longwalker (sauropod), Carnosaur (big meat eaters), Hunters & Runners (smaller theropods including herbivores, scavengers, and carnivores), Wild Beast (prehistoric animals which are either very aggressive, untamed, or carnivorous), Herd Animal (big hairy critters that can sometimes be domesticated, hunted, and/or herded), Aquatic (dinos and prims), Avian (Birds, Flightless Birds, Avian Reptiles, Avian Pterosaurs), etc.



> "Anoplotops Ferox" is an entirely fictional dinosaur from Goodman Games' Dinosaur Planet d20 RPG. Appropriately enough, it's listen in the contents of a Monster Manual entitled _*Dinosaurs That Never Were*_. Not only that, but I don't like the stats. Str 20 is feeble for a Huge animal, its challenge rating is way too high (It looks more like a CR8 than a CR16) and its specific name shouldn't be capitalised (i.e. it should be _Anoplotops ferox_ with a small-f.) Well, at least it only has *one* Toughness feat.
> 
> Some of the others have a few stats I don't like or are a bit too "imaginary" for my tastes, at least for inclusion in this thread. The eusocial _Microceratops_ is an example of the latter, it really belongs in Phantasy. The _Giraffatitan_ is a case of the former - L think most of its stats are fine but its CR18 is way too high. It's more like a CR12.



Anoplotops Ferox made me angry when I realized that I was chasing a feaux dino to figure out what it was in my categories - no wonder I had never heard of it!  I mean, I know I am a little behind on some things in this realm, but I had never heard of this critter....  Oooh, I was mad.  

The pdf has a bunch of category designations, but the list changed as I went along and I would have to refine it a bit.  If you have doubts about what category of dino/prim it might be, just leave that blank and I can call it out.  For dire creatures or adjusted, advanced, or templated creatures, let's post them on the fiction thread and simply add them to the page here with their base or standard creature as a text link.  I know it would be convenient on a web search, but I think it would end up being more organized for later by doing it this way.  I really did consider it, but it will be a little more of a hassle when I am reviewing before I compile the stats.  However, I am right there with you about making a few extra fictional creatures, including celestial, anarchic, and axiomatic versions of base dino/prims - I just think scrolling through them on this forum would throw me off at the points in the process later on when I go and try to review them as they're posted in both places (my document and the web threads).

One more pair of resources, and I think I will have gathered everything up to date - the quickie archive I created of transcribing over published dinos/prims from previous 3/3.5e publications that may be of use here...  >Here<  And, a few transcribed 'dinosaurs' >Here< (actually, all dinos/prims known as are currently being listed on the first thread, but I have not yet included the other publications that I have: Sandstorm, Fiend Folio, MMII)

Ok, glad you can see the pdf table - I had some issues with people being able to see them earlier.  Also, since we are both big on fictional elements as well, check out my concept for Nymian Sigilry and let me know what you think about that little work in progress.

That will also be something that will fit in with the campaign setting I have together, which dinopriminals use (the ones we are creating in the PhanPre - prehistoric guardinal equivalents), as well as the Faunar (supposedly a simple clan society, an ancient secret society of shapeshifters, catfolk, and similar sentient humanoids involved in protecting nature, the cosmos, and the greater good that allows life to flourish, prosper, hunt, and be hunted.  They have interplanar access and utilize magic, armaments, and technology from the various places they travel, do business, and do tactical and information-gathering missions between their stints in their homelands.  I love this campaign setting - it is wicked fun.  My friend, who is the only person currently gaming in that world right now, is loving the ability to hunt big creatures whenever he wants.  He is slowly being brought into the secret culture of the Faunar, and uses minimal sigilry thus far.


----------



## freyar (Oct 17, 2009)

Why'd you think this thread needed looking at, xidoraven?  You guys are going along great!


----------



## Cleon (Oct 17, 2009)

xidoraven said:


> You're right, and I am not even going to argue with your logic - but I figured for the campaign setting I am proposing, take an entirely functional full-scale dino/prim ecology as it is and then add sentient humanoids (the only major human populations being those savage or barbarian tribes).  Suddenly big herbivores are only going to be seen in dense forests and marshes where they can stay somewhat protected and still feed.  Also, since the sentient races nearby are so simple, I went for simple terms that might be used to categorize them (by price, or by usefulness when trained).  Ie, Walker (big herbiv herd/migration dino), Longwalker (sauropod), Carnosaur (big meat eaters), Hunters & Runners (smaller theropods including herbivores, scavengers, and carnivores), Wild Beast (prehistoric animals which are either very aggressive, untamed, or carnivorous), Herd Animal (big hairy critters that can sometimes be domesticated, hunted, and/or herded), Aquatic (dinos and prims), Avian (Birds, Flightless Birds, Avian Reptiles, Avian Pterosaurs), etc.




Hmm, the "Avian" category is a bit confusing since the word literally means "birds" and you've listed a varies other types of flying creature. Why not change it to "Flyers" or "Aerials" and move the Flightless Birds into Hunters & Runners (were they'd fit in quite well, since they are actually small theropods!).


----------



## Cleon (Oct 18, 2009)

xidoraven said:


> Anoplotops Ferox made me angry when I realized that I was chasing a feaux dino to figure out what it was in my categories - no wonder I had never heard of it!  I mean, I know I am a little behind on some things in this realm, but I had never heard of this critter....  Oooh, I was mad.




Found another "faux beastie" that needs cutting from the real-world Prehistoric Animal index.

Tanaconda is from a _Jurassic Park_ toy line, not paleontology. Apparently it's a mutant hybrid of a _Tanystropheus_ and an anaconda. See here for a picture.

EDIT: Speaking of _Tanystropheus_, I don't think either of the versions in the index are terribly realistic, although this one is closest. The reptile probably only weighed a couple of hundred pounds, so it certainly wasn't Huge in size, despite its 10-foot neck and 20-foot length. (which, incidentally, is extraordinarily large, a far more typical length would be 13 feet). I'd make it Medium sized, with extra Reach with its bite attack. They also aren't much of a danger to anything larger than a herring.

May stat up a more realistic _Tanystropheus_ if I'm feeling idle, together with a "Dire Tanystropheus" to give us something to chew on adventurers.


----------



## xidoraven (Oct 21, 2009)

Cleon said:


> Hmm, the "Avian" category is a bit confusing since the word literally means "birds" and you've listed a varies other types of flying creature. Why not change it to "Flyers" or "Aerials" and move the Flightless Birds into Hunters & Runners (were they'd fit in quite well, since they are actually small theropods!).




Agreed: avian is an off-term, and in fact I think there are two distinct categories: Avian Prims (Birds, Flightless Birds) and Avian/Aerial Dinos (pterosaurs, pseudo-pterosaurs).  Also, Hunters/Runners is specifically a dinosaur category.  Though some of them have distinctly bird-like features to us, they are still 'mostly' a dinosaur in nature/taxonomy.

Even though the peoples using these simple terms might be simple minded, they would nevertheless have been given the correct information about these creatures, as the ones who educated them of anything to begin with would have known the difference.  



Cleon said:


> Found another "faux beastie" that needs cutting from the real-world Prehistoric Animal index.
> 
> Tanaconda is from a _Jurassic Park_ toy line, not paleontology. Apparently it's a mutant hybrid of a _Tanystropheus_ and an anaconda. See here for a picture.
> 
> ...




That's terrible.  I am so ashamed.  I think Dilophosaurus was enough of a divergence.  I think I remember the critter, it's the the one with a short stocky body and a really long neck?  It is a piscivore?


----------



## Cleon (Oct 21, 2009)

xidoraven said:


> That's terrible.  I am so ashamed.  I think Dilophosaurus was enough of a divergence.  I think I remember the critter, it's the the one with a short stocky body and a really long neck?  It is a piscivore?




That's the one. They're pretty weird reptiles, kind of like a cross between a fishing rod and a crocodile.

Not sure what they're doing in Jurassic Park. They're from the middle of the Triassic.

Anyhows, I'm more or less finished with my take on _Tanystropheus_. I'll probably post it sometime tonight.

EDIT: And here it is...


----------



## Cleon (Oct 21, 2009)

*Tanystropheus*
*Middle* *Triassic* *(250-230* *MYA)*
Medium Animal
*Hit* *Dice:* 3d8 (13 hp)
*Initiative:* +2
*Speed:* 15 ft. (3 squares), swim 30 ft.
*Armor* *Class:* 14 (+2 Dex, +2 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 12
*Base* *Attack/Grapple:* +2/+4
*Attack:* Bite +5 melee (1d6+3)
*Full* *Attack:* Bite +5 melee (1d6+3)
*Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft. (10 ft. with bite)
*Special* *Attacks:* Improved grab, swallow whole [_Diminutive-sized as combat attack, 1d4+2 plus 2 acid, 5 hp, AC11_]
*Special* *Qualities:* Hold breath, low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +3, Ref +5, Will +2
*Abilities:* Str 15, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 4
*Skills:* Hide +7* (+11 in water or half-concealed, +15 half-concealed in water), Listen +3, Spot +3, Swim +10
*Feats:* Skill Focus (Hide), Weapon Focus (bite)
*Environment:* Warm aquatic and swamps
*Organization:* Solitary or cluster (2-8)
*Challenge* *Rating:* 1
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 4 HD (Medium); 5-6 HD (Large)
*Level* *Adjustment:* —

This reptile has an extraordinarily long neck, longer than the rest of the body put together. It has a slim lizard-like torso with fat, muscular hindquarters and a tail of average length. Parts of the body are covered in rectangular scales. The head is tiny, with a narrow snout full of spike-like teeth that interlock when its jaws are closed. The neck is pretty stiff, about as flexible as fishing rod.

_Tanystropheus_ are carnivores, mainly eating little fish and squid. They usually hunt by concealing their body – typically in swamp vegetation, above an overhanging rock along the shore, or buried in mud or a rock-hollow under the water – and wait until a meal swims by, then move out to snatch their prey up in their jaws. Their extravagantly long necks allow them to close with a witless fish without the latter realizing they've come within a larger creature's reach.

In areas with abundant marine life _Tanystropheus_ can be quite common. They are not social animals, but are gregarious enough to cluster at a particularly good fishing spot without too much squabbling.

A typical _Tanystropheus_ has a total length from nose to tail of around 13 feet, 7 feet of which is neck, but has a head only 8 or 9 inches long. It weighs 180 pounds or so. An extremely big individual may approach 20 feet in length. Smaller individuals are quite common, both actual _Tanystropheus_ and related species of lesser size.

*Combat*
_Tanystropheus_ only attack prey small enough to swallow. When faced with larger creatures they would rather hide or flee than fight, but will readily bite in self defence. 

*Hold Breath (Ex):* A _Tanystropheus_ can hold its breath for a number of rounds equal to 4 × its Constitution score before it risks drowning.

*Improved* *Grab* *(Ex):* To use this ability, a _Tanystropheus_ must hit with a bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can try to swallow the foe the following round.

*Swallow* *Whole* *(Ex):* A _Tanystropheus_ can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of up to three sizes smaller by making a successful grapple check. A _Tanystropheus_ can swallow a creature two sizes smaller than itself, but it takes it 1d6+4 rounds and two successful grapple checks to do so (one to start, one to finish). Therefore it does not swallow bigger victims while in combat.

The swallowed creature takes 1d4+2 points of bludgeoning damage and 2 points of acid damage per round from the _Tanystropheus's_ gizzard. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal 5 points of damage to the gizzard (AC 11). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out.

A Medium-sized _Tanystropheus_'_s_ gizzard can hold 4 Tiny, 16 Diminutive or 64 Fine opponents.

*Skills*
A _Tanystropheus_ has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.

*A _Tanystropheus_ has a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks when it is in water. Further, if a _Tanystropheus_ conceals its body, leaving its slim neck and tiny head visible, it gains a +4 cover bonus on Hide checks, or +6 if it is a Large-sized _Tanystropheus_.

 *Large Tanystropheus*
Large Animal
*Hit* *Dice:* 5d8+5 (27 hp)
*Initiative:* +2
*Speed:* 15 ft. (3 squares), swim 30 ft.
*Armor* *Class:* 15 (–1 size, +2 Dex, +4 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 13
*Base* *Attack/Grapple:* +3/+11
*Attack:* Bite +7 melee (1d8+6)
*Full* *Attack:* Bite +7 melee (1d8+6)
*Space/Reach:* 10 ft./5 ft. (15 ft. with bite)
*Special* *Attacks:* Improved grab, swallow whole [_Tiny-sized as combat attack, 1d6+4 plus 4 acid, 10 hp, AC12_]
*Special* *Qualities:* Hold breath, low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +5, Ref +6, Will +2
*Abilities:* Str 19, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 4
*Skills:* Hide +5* (+9 in water, +11 if half-concealed, +15 if half-concealed in water), Listen +3, Spot +3, Swim +12
*Feats:* Skill Focus (Hide), Weapon Focus (bite)
*Environment:* Warm aquatic and swamps
*Organization:* Solitary or cluster (2-8)
*Challenge* *Rating:* 2
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 6 HD (Large)
*Level* *Adjustment:* —

Like many reptiles, _Tanystropheus_ do not stop growing, so a particularly old and well-nourished specimen can reach an impressive size, as represented by the above stats. Such individuals are very rare, however.

A big _Tanystropheus_ is some 20 feet from nose to tail, with a foot-long head upon a neck that's10 feet long, if not longer. They typically weigh from 500 to 700 pounds.

*Small Tanystropheus (Dinocephalus)*
Small Animal
*Hit* *Dice:* 2d8 (9 hp)
*Initiative:* +2
*Speed:* 15 ft. (3 squares), swim 30 ft.
*Armor* *Class:* 14 (+1 size, +2 Dex, +1 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 12
*Base* *Attack/Grapple:* +1/–2
*Attack:* Bite +5 melee (1d4+1)
*Full* *Attack:* Bite +5 melee (1d4+1)
*Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft.
*Special* *Attacks:* Improved grab, swallow whole [_Fine-sized as combat attack, 1d3+1 plus 1 acid, 5 hp, AC10_]
*Special* *Qualities:* Hold breath, low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +3, Ref +5, Will +1
*Abilities:* Str 13, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 4
*Skills:* Hide +7* (+11 in water or half-concealed, +15 half-concealed in water), Listen +3, Spot +3, Swim +9
*Feats:* Weapon Finesse(B), Weapon Focus (bite)
*Environment:* Warm aquatic and swamps
*Organization:* Solitary or cluster (2-8)
*Challenge* *Rating:* ½
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 3-4 HD (Medium); 5-6 HD (Large)
*Level* *Adjustment:* —

This could be a adult _Tanystropheus_ of modest size, or a member of a smaller related species, such as _Dinocephalosaurus orientalis_.

A typical Small _Tanystropheus_ is 9 feet long with a 6 inch head on a 5 foot neck, and weigh about 60 pounds.

*Dire Tanystropheus*
Large Animal (Dire)
*Hit* *Dice:* 7d8+21 (52 hp)
*Initiative:* +3
*Speed:* 15 ft. (3 squares), swim 30 ft.
*Armor* *Class:* 18 (–1 size, +3 Dex, +6 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 15
*Base* *Attack/Grapple:* +5/+15
*Attack:* Bite +11 melee (2d6+9)
*Full* *Attack:* Bite +11 melee (2d6+9)
*Space/Reach:* 10 ft./5 ft. (20 ft. with bite)
*Special* *Attacks:* Constrict 1d10+9, improved grab, swallow whole [_Tiny-sized as combat attack, 1d8+6 plus 4 acid, 15 hp, AC13_]
*Special* *Qualities:* Hold breath, low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +8, Ref +8, Will +6
*Abilities:* Str 23, Dex 17, Con 16, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 8
*Skills:* Hide +8* (+12 in water, +14 if half-concealed, +18 if half-concealed in water), Listen +5, Spot +5, Swim +14
*Feats:* Alertness, Skill Focus (Hide), Weapon Focus (bite)
*Environment:* Warm aquatic and swamps
*Organization:* Solitary or cluster (2-8)
*Challenge* *Rating:* 4
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 8-14 HD (Large); 15-29 HD (Huge); 30-45 (Gargantuan)
*Level* *Adjustment:* —

This is not a real-world animal (or even a realistic one). While an ordinary _Tanystropheus_ has a quite rigid neck, a dire _Tanystropheus's_ neck is as flexible as a serpent, and can crush victims in its coils like a python. They can also process prey items too large to swallow, by bracing a carcass in their coils, or wedging it under a rock or sunken tree, then tearing off bite-sized chunks with their jaws. However, a dire _Tanystropheus_ is so stupidly voracious they have been known to attempt to swallow objects to big for them to consume and subsequently choke to death.

 A dire _Tanystropheus_ averages about 25 feet long, with a cubit-long head on a neck 13 feet long, and weighs between 1200 to 1500 pounds.

*Combat*
Dire_ Tanystropheus_ are far more aggressive than the mundane variety, and will attack any prey smaller than themselves. When faced with larger creatures they would rather hide or flee, but will ferociously fight in self defence.

A dire _Tanystropheus_ usually lurks in ambush under the water or above a cliff, then lashes out its long neck when prey wanders within reach. Once combat begins they are recklessly vicious, and generally fight to the death without even a thought of retreat.

*Constrict (Ex):* On a successful grapple check, a dire_ Tanystropheus_ deals 1d10+9 points of damage.

*Hold Breath (Ex):* A dire_ Tanystropheus_ can hold its breath for a number of rounds equal to 4 × its Constitution score before it risks drowning.

*Improved* *Grab* *(Ex):* To use this ability, a dire_ Tanystropheus_ must hit with a bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can try to constrict or swallow the foe the following round.

*Swallow* *Whole* *(Ex):* A dire_ Tanystropheus_ can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of up to three sizes smaller by making a successful grapple check. A dire_ Tanystropheus_ can swallow a creature two sizes smaller than itself, but it takes it 1d6+4 rounds and two successful grapple checks to do so (one to start, one to finish). Therefore it does not swallow bigger victims while in combat.

The swallowed creature takes 1d8+6 points of bludgeoning damage and 4 points of acid damage per round from the dire_ Tanystropheus's_ gizzard. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal 15 points of damage to the gizzard (AC 13). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out.

A Large-sized dire_ Tanystropheus_'_s_ gizzard can hold 4 Small, 16 Tiny, 64 Diminutive or 256 Fine opponents.

*Skills*
A dire_ Tanystropheus_ has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.

*A dire_ Tanystropheus_ has a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks when it is in water. Further, if a dire_ Tanystropheus_ conceals its body, leaving its slim neck and tiny head visible, it gains a +6 cover bonus on Hide checks.

*Huge Dire Tanystropheus*
Huge Animal (Dire)
*Hit* *Dice:* 15d8+75 (142 hp)
*Initiative:* +7
*Speed:* 15 ft. (3 squares), swim 30 ft.
*Armor* *Class:* 20 (–2 size, +3 Dex, +9 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 17
*Base* *Attack/Grapple:* +11/+29
*Attack:* Bite +20 melee (3d6+15)
*Full* *Attack:* Bite +20 melee (3d6+15)
*Space/Reach:* 15 ft./10 ft. (30 ft. with bite)
*Special* *Attacks:* Constrict 2d8+15, improved grab, swallow whole [_Small-sized as combat attack, 2d6+10 plus 8 acid, 25 hp, AC14_]
*Special* *Qualities:* Hold breath, low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +14, Ref +14, Will +10
*Abilities:* Str 31, Dex 17, Con 20, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 8
*Skills:* Hide +10* (+14 in water, +16 if half-concealed, +20 if half-concealed in water), Listen +6, Spot +6, Swim +18
*Feats:* Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Skill Focus (Hide), Weapon Focus (bite)
*Environment:* Warm aquatic and swamps
*Organization:* Solitary or cluster (2-8)
*Challenge* *Rating:* 8
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 16-29 HD (Huge); 30-45 (Gargantuan)
*Level* *Adjustment:* —

A huge dire _Tanystropheus_ averages about 40 feet long and typically weighs between 4000 and 7000 pounds, with a head at least 2 feet long on a neck 25 feet long.

 *Combat*
A huge dire _Tanystropheus_ ambushes prey like a regular dire _Tanystropheus_. Its head strikes with blinding speed. They often use their Combat Reflexes feat to bite multiple opponents as they close with them. The Gargantuan-sized variety can snap up a couple of lesser foes in one pass by using the Cleave feat.

*Gargantuan Dire Tanystropheus*
Gargantuan Animal (Dire)
*Hit* *Dice:* 30d8+150 (345 hp)
*Initiative:* +7
*Speed:* 15 ft. (3 squares), swim 30 ft.
*Armor* *Class:* 22 (–4 size, +3 Dex, +13 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 19
*Base* *Attack/Grapple:* +22/+48
*Attack:* Bite +33 melee (5d6+21)
*Full* *Attack:* Bite +33 melee (5d6+21)
*Space/Reach:* 20 ft./15 ft. (40 ft. with bite)
*Special* *Attacks:* Constrict 3d8+21, improved grab, swallow whole [_Medium-sized as combat attack, 3d6+14 plus 8 acid, 30 hp, AC16_]
*Special* *Qualities:* Hold breath, low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +24, Ref +26, Will +18
*Abilities:* Str 39, Dex 16, Con 24, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 8
*Skills:* Hide +13* (+17 in water, +19 if half-concealed, +23 if half-concealed in water), Listen +10, Spot +10, Swim +22
*Feats:* Alertness, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative, Improved Natural Attack (bite), Lightning Reflexes, Power Attack, Skill Focus (Hide), Weapon Focus (bite)
*Epic Feat:* Epic Reflexes, Great Dexterity
*Environment:* Warm aquatic and swamps
*Organization:* Solitary or cluster (2-8)
*Challenge* *Rating:* 13
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 31-45 (Gargantuan)
*Level* *Adjustment:* —

A Gargantuan dire Tanystropheus is at least 70 feet long and weighs 16 tons or more, with a yard-long head on a neck that can reach over 40 feet. Such a monster can swallow human beings like oysters.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 28, 2009)

I'd noticed a curious omission from the index of prehistoric beasties. It doesn't have an entry for _*Deinocheirus*_.

That seems rather odd, since it's pretty widely known, despite their being very little actually known about the dinosaur.

Still, it inspired me to stat up a _Deinocheirus,_ as well as doing my own take on the Ornithomimosaurs it is presumed to be related to...


----------



## Cleon (Oct 28, 2009)

*Ornithomimosaurs*

*Ornithomimosaurs*
Ornithomimosaurs are a group of a bipedal dinosaurs with long, slender arms with three clawed fingers, a small head on a pretty long neck and a long counterbalancing tail. They are one of the swiftest of dinosaurs, running at least as fast as a horse on their powerful hind limbs.

There is no firm scientific agreement on what they ate, but most likely they were herbivores or omnivores. Their head is mostly a long, narrow straight-edged beak. Some primitive forms had teeth, but the more advanced Ornithomimosaurs were toothless. Ornithomimosaurs have muscular gizzards filled with stones that allow them to efficiently grind up tough food.

For the sake of this conversion I'm assuming they are omnivores.

Ornithomimosaurs were mostly fairly uniform in size, with species ranging from 10 to 20 feet in adult length, with about 13 feet being typical. However, there is one dinosaur, _Deinocheirus mirificus_ which may be a giant relative of the Ornithomimosauria. Since only a pair of 8-foot long arms and a little of the ribs and backbone of _Deinocheirus_ has been discovered, any conversion will perforce be extremely speculative. I've decided to make _Deinocheirus_ a giant omnivore that mainly ate vegetable matter and insects, but would happily eat smaller vertebrates if they fell into its clutches. Since it could have weighed 10 tons, "smaller" could easily accommodate adventurers, which seemed appropriate for a "D&D" version of this animal.

*Ornithomimus*
*Late Cretaceous* *(85-65* *MYA)*
*Other Ornithomimosaurs Early-Late Cretaceous* *(250-230* *MYA)*
Large Animal
*Hit* *Dice:* 3d8+9 (22 hp)
*Initiative:* +2
*Speed:* 60 ft. (12 squares)
*Armor* *Class:* 15 (-1 size, +2 Dex, +4 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 13
*Base* *Attack/Grapple:* +2/+10
*Attack:* kick +5 melee (2d6+6)
*Full* *Attack:* kick +5 melee (2d6+6); or 2 claws +5 melee (1d4+2) and bite +0 melee (1d3+2)
*Space/Reach:* 10 ft./5 ft.
*Special* *Attacks:* Swallow whole, trample 2d6+6 [_DC15_]
*Special* *Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +6, Ref +5, Will +2
*Abilities:* Str 19, Dex 15, Con 17, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 4
*Skills:* Hide +2* [+_6 in undergrowth_], Jump +18, Listen +6, Spot +6, Survival +3
*Feats:* Endurance, Run
*Environment:* Warm or temperate plains and forests
*Organization:* Solitary; flight (2-12) or flock (5-50)
*Challenge* *Rating:* 1
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 4-6 HD (Large)
*Level* *Adjustment:* —

_Ornithomimus_ is a typical example of the Ornithomimosauria. They prefer to live in flocks in fairly open ground, so they have many eyes to watch for danger and clear paths to escape. These dinosaurs are omnivores; they mostly eat fruit, nuts and leaves, supplemented with whatever diminutive animals they can catch.

A typical _Ornithomimus_ is 12-15 feet long and weighs about 300 pounds.

*Combat*
A threatened _Ornithomimus's_ first instinct is flight, although they may fight if cornered or grappled. An _Ornithomimus_ generally defends itself with a powerful kick or trampling attack while trying to clear its path to escape, but they can also fight with slashing foreclaws and a darting beak.

Usually, the only danger _Ornithomimus_ poses to an adventuring party is that they may be trampled underfoot if the dinosaurs panic and stampede. An _Ornithomimus_ would only attack characters as food if they're pixie-sized. They have been known to swallow familiars, however.

*Swallow* *Whole* *(Ex):* An _Ornithomimus_ can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of up to Diminutive size by making a successful grapple check. The swallowed creature takes 1d6+6 points of bludgeoning damage and 2 points of acid damage per round from the _Ornithomimus's_ gizzard. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal 10 points of damage to the gizzard (AC 12). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out. An _Ornithomimus's_ gizzard can hold 8 Diminutive or 32 Fine opponents.

*Skills
*An _Ornithomimus_ has a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks and a +2 racial bonus on Jump, Listen, Spot, and Survival checks. *Its racial bonus on Hide checks increases to +8 in areas of undergrowth.

 *Archaeornithomimus (Lesser Ornithomimosaur)*
*Late Cretaceous* *(85-65* *MYA)*
Medium Animal
*Hit* *Dice:* 2d8+4 (13 hp)
*Initiative:* +3
*Speed:* 60 ft. (12 squares)
*Armor* *Class:* 15 (+3 Dex, +2 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 12
*Base* *Attack/Grapple:* +1/+2
*Attack:* kick +4 melee (1d8+1)
*Full* *Attack:* kick +4 melee (1d8+1); or 2 claws +4 melee (1d3) and bite –1 melee (1d2)
*Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft.
*Special* *Attacks:* Trample 1d8+1 [_DC12_]
*Special* *Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +5, Ref +6, Will +1
*Abilities:* Str 13, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 4
*Skills:* Hide +6* [_+10 in undergrowth_], Jump +15, Listen +5, Spot +6, Survival +3
*Feats:* Run, Weapon Finesse(B)
*Environment:* Warm or temperate plains and forests
*Organization:* Solitary; flight (2-12) or flock (5-50)
*Challenge* *Rating:* ½
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 3-4 HD (Large)
*Level* *Adjustment:* —

The above represents any of the smaller varieties of Ornithomimosaur, ranging from 7 to 12 feet long. The same stats can be used for such primitive Ornithomimids as _Pelecanimimus polyodon_ and _Harpymimus oklandnikovi_, both of which species are unusual in possessing small but sharp teeth.

A typical Archaeornithomimus is about 10 feet between beak and tail tips and weighs 100-140 pounds.

*Gallimimus (Greater Ornithomimosaur)*
*Late Cretaceous* *(70-65* *MYA)*
Large Animal
*Hit* *Dice:* 5d8+20 (42 hp)
*Initiative:* +2
*Speed:* 60 ft. (12 squares)
*Armor* *Class:* 15 (-1 size, +2 Dex, +4 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 13
*Base* *Attack/Grapple:* +3/+13
*Attack:* kick +8 melee (2d6+9)
*Full* *Attack:* kick +8 melee (2d6+9); or 2 claws +8 melee (1d4+3) and bite +3 melee (1d3+3)
*Space/Reach:* 10 ft./5 ft.
*Special* *Attacks:* Swallow whole, trample 2d6+9 [_DC18_]
*Special* *Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent, swallow whole [_1d6+9, 10 hp, AC12_]
*Saves:* Fort +8, Ref +6, Will +2
*Abilities:* Str 23, Dex 15, Con 19, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 4
*Skills:* Hide +2* [+_6 in undergrowth_], Jump +20, Listen +7, Spot +7, Survival +3
*Feats:* Endurance, Run
*Environment:* Warm or temperate plains and forests
*Organization:* Solitary; flight (2-12) or flock (5-50)
*Challenge* *Rating:* 2
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 6 HD (Large)
*Level* *Adjustment:* —

_Gallimimus_ is the largest known genus of Ornithomimid.

A typical _Gallimimus_ grows up to 20 feet long and 800-1000 pounds weight.

*Combat*
(See above for tactics).

*Swallow* *Whole* *(Ex):* A _Gallimimus_ can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of up to Diminutive size by making a successful grapple check. The swallowed creature takes 1d6+9 points of bludgeoning damage and 2 points of acid damage per round from the _Gallimimus's_ gizzard. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal 10 points of damage to the gizzard (AC 12). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out. A _Gallimimus's_ gizzard can hold 4 Tiny, 16 Diminutive or 64 Fine opponents.

*Skills
*A _Gallimimus_ has a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks and a +2 racial bonus on Jump, Listen, Spot, and Survival checks. *Its racial bonus on Hide checks increases to +8 in areas of undergrowth.

*Deinocheirus*
*Late Cretaceous* *(75-65* *MYA)*
Gargantuan Animal
*Hit* *Dice:* 15d8+105 (172 hp)
*Initiative:* +2
*Speed:* 60 ft. (12 squares)
*Armor* *Class:* 18 (-4 size, +2 Dex, +10 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 16
*Base* *Attack/Grapple:* +11/+33
*Attack:* Claw +18 melee (1d10+10) or bite +17 melee (1d8+5) or kick +17 melee (4d6+15)
*Full* *Attack:* 2 claws +18 melee (1d10+10) and bite +15 melee (1d8+5); or kick +17 melee (4d6+15)
*Space/Reach:* 20 ft./15 ft.
*Special* *Attacks:* Swallow whole, trample 4d6+15 [_3d6+15, 25 hp, DC27_]
*Special* *Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +16, Ref +11, Will +6
*Abilities:* Str 30, Dex 15, Con 25, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 4
*Skills:* Hide +4* [+_8 in undergrowth_], Jump +24, Listen +9, Spot +9, Survival +3
*Feats:* Alertness, Endurance, Run, Weapon Focus (claw), Multiattack, Snatch
*Environment:* Warm or temperate plains and forests
*Organization:* Solitary or pair
*Challenge* *Rating:* 7
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 16-24 HD (Gargantuan)
*Level* *Adjustment:* —

_Stalking into sight is an bizarre looking animal resembling an enormous, scaly ostrich more than three times as tall as a man, and well over forty feet in length once its great lizard-like tail is included. Instead of an ostrich's wings, it has arms as long as an ogre is tall, with foot-long talons on the three fingers of each hand. The head is two or three feet long, with a sharp-edged beak and an crown of ornamental plumes._

A _Deinocheirus_ looks like a _Ornithomimus_ of monstrous size and strength, which is basically what it is. They are remarkably fleet-footed despite their gigantic size.

These animals have extremely powerful gizzards and are most catholic in their diet, being willing to swallow anything that looks or smells edible. Their diet is mostly vegetation, with a supplement of much smaller animals and carrion; they have a particular fondness for breaking open termite mounds with their claws and licking up the insects. These dinosaurs are not active hunters, but will happily snatch up and eat any bite-sized creatures foolish enough to come within a few steps of them. Since these dinosaurs are several times larger than an average elephant, "bite sized" can include humans. On rare occasions they will kill and eat bigger animals, such large prey are usually hapless herbivores careless enough to annoy the _Deinocheirus_ and too slow about getting out of its way, or a carnivorous dinosaur that mistook the "Terrible Hand" for an easy meal.

A typical _Deinocheirus_ is about 50 feet long and weighs up to 20000 pounds.

*Combat*
_Deinocheirus_ are far more pugnacious than their smaller Ornithomimosaur cousins. While they usually flee attackers whose size rivals theirs, they are not adverse to attacking threats with their terrible foreclaws and a bite. They can also unleash a tremendous kick, usually as a precursor to a rapid departure.

Most _Deinocheirus_ will ignore Medium or Small sized humanoids unless they provoke it by injuring the beast or intruding into its personal space (a radius of about 60-120 feet around the animal). Some of these dinosaurs have learned to attack humanoids, either out of a taste for their flesh or because they have been injured by them, and will go out of their way to stalk, kill and eat them. Such are fearsome opponents, they usually charge and crush as many opponents as they can with their Trample attack, then try to use their Snatch feat to seize its humanoid opponents in their claws and beak and swallow them.

*Swallow* *Whole* *(Ex):* A _Deinocheirus_ can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of up to three sizes smaller by making a successful grapple check. The swallowed creature takes 3d6+15 points of bludgeoning damage and 8 points of acid damage per round from the _Deinocheirus's_ gizzard. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal 25 points of damage to the gizzard (AC 12). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out. A _Deinocheirus's_ gizzard can hold 4 Medium, 16 Small, 64 Tiny or 256 Diminutive or Fine opponents.

*Skills
*An _Deinocheirus_ has a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks and a +2 racial bonus on Jump, Listen, Spot, and Survival checks. *Its racial bonus on Hide checks increases to +8 in areas of undergrowth.


----------



## hamishspence (Oct 30, 2009)

*Deltadromeus*

This is possibly the largest ceratosaur.

*Deltadromeus*
*Late Cretaceous (95 MYA)*
*Huge animal*
*Hit Dice:* 16d8+75 (147 hp)
*Initiative:* +6
*Speed:* 60 ft. (12 squares)
*Armor Class:* 15 (-2 size, +2 Dex, +5 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 13
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +12/+27
*Attack:* Bite +17 melee (4d8+10 or Powerful Charge 4d8+10 plus 3d6)
*Full Attack:* Bite +17 melee (4d8+10)
*Space/Reach:* 15 ft./15 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Rend 2d8+10, Powerful Charge
*Special Qualities:* Low light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +14, Ref +12, Will +7
*Abilities:* Str 25, Dex 14, Con 18, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 10
*Skills:* Listen +10, Move Silently +8, Spot +11
*Feats:* Alertness, Improved Initiative, Run, Toughness, Improved Toughness, Powerful Charge
*Environment:* Warm forests
*Organization:* Solitary, pair, or pack (3-8)
*Challenge Rating:* 8
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 17-20 HD (Huge)
*Level Adjustment:* -

Measuring up to 44 feet from nose to tail, and weighing up to 7000 pounds in weight, _Deltadromeus_ walks on two long, slender, but strong legs, and is an extremely swift runner for its size.

COMBAT

_Deltadromeus_ tries to catch prey by surprise, then relies on its speed and its powerful jaws to make the kill. When hunting in a pack, one usually makes its presence known, causing prey to bolt into the waiting jaws of its fellows.

*Rend (Ex):* When _Deltadromeus_ wins a grapple check after a successful bite attack, it establishes a hold, latching onto the opponent's body and shaking it to tear the flesh. This attack automatically deals 2d8+10 points of damage.


----------



## xidoraven (Oct 30, 2009)

I'm afraid I must not have subscribed to this page, because I have been checking my subscription list for days now with no activity, and then I come here and realize that I missed a whole load of postings!

I will review and respond as I can soon enough.   
-will
---
Update: I love Deinocheirus - I included it in my own list of needed creatures, I believe - or else I decided halfway through my research that it was a therizinosaur and ruled it out against Therizinosaurus - which is incorrect, after reading around a little more.

I like the idea of Deinocheirus as a ant-mound-destroying ornithomimosaur with omnivorous traits and an herbivorous lean.

I have never heard of Deltadromeus, however it looks in many ways similar to other carnosaurs - what is the largest "Super Predator" size and HD?  Thanks for joining in!  I appreciate all the help we can get.  Make sure I know which creatures to begin crossing off our list for being reviewed and revised, including all applicable stats such as familiars, companions, mounts, training/rearing, etc.  I love your format, Cleon - the MYA and era entries are excellent.

I would like to do away with the word 'Nova' now that I get what you were hinting at, and simply call them homebrew or else some other term to show that they have been created (or else revised from a half-written or poorly written previous version).  Redux is a good way of pointing out that we know it was published once and we are re-writing it in our own balancing system.  I like that term - I don't see that the other one is necessary.  We don't really have to call them anything at all other than their species/family, or variations on another more common named animal (such as a Gigantosaurus being *similar* to a Tyrranosaurus is most ways possible); variations from popular named animals are fine, and might deserve their own formatting layout (such as with minimal changes noted) or some other change to show their similarity to another race.  I am not trying to push too hard on this one - I just don't think we need a bunch of extra names for these critters when they are all animals, and the reader will never need to know how it is that we composed them based on previous versions, etc.  If the creature they are looking at is different from their SRD versions, I think it deserves the 'Redux' label - everything else is seemingly trivial with naming conventions; it's definitely more important to think about how they will be organized, not only here, but in a series of pages within a publication as well.

I am thinking either by category (dino/prim, and categories of those) with similar creatures listed as you have them here (like variations on a base creature), or else alphabetically (with no type/category separations).  In any case, fictional creatures based on these creatures (Giant, Dire, etc.) will need to be placed in another category no matter what, I fear - it may work well here on the web forums, but in print it needs to be as indexed as possible.  Small versions (children, adolescents variations) might reside with the original creature post without confusion quite well.

I promise I will be keeping better track of this thread from now on - I AM SUBSCRIBED now.


----------



## hamishspence (Oct 31, 2009)

*Deltadromeus*

This is where it is described- I gave it fairly low hit dice because it s lighter than T-rex:

Deltadromeus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The biggest version of Giganotosaurus:

http://community.wizards.com/go/thr...inosaur_Menagerie?post_id=332181778#332181778

Personally though, I would say some of the bigger ones ought to be trimmed down to size.

Going by Wikipedia, the "normal" _Giganotosaurus_ is 41 ft long, and the largest known specimen (based on a single fragment of bone) is 8% larger.

For _T. rex_- Sue- the largest mounted one- is at most 43 ft long (I have seen sizes for Sue ranging from 42 ft, to 42.8 ft, to 43 ft.)
The biggest _T. rex_ skull is 6.5% longer than Sue's.

_Carcharodontosaurus_ is probably slightly smaller than _Giganotosaurus- _it's skull is quite a bit shorter.

To sum up- most of the big dinosaurs (excepting _Spinosaurus_) seem to max out at around 45 ft long.

If we assume a dinoaur should not extend outside its reach in both directions, but can be just that long, and assume that Large and Huge biped dinosaurs can come in Short and Long reach versions: 

(reasonable- the _Allosaurus_ in MM2, updated to 3.5, is given a 15 ft space 15 ft reach)

:then, Huge (long reach) is probably the best size for most of the "super-predators"

For the borderline between Large (long reach) and Huge (short reach) I tend to use weight and leg length as a guideline- if the dino is around 2 tonnes- it should be Huge, even if it is a little on the short side (Gigantoraptor) 

but if it is 1 tonne or less, and if it has relatively short legs, it should be Large.


----------



## hamishspence (Oct 31, 2009)

*A list of major clades- biggest members of each*

This is a list of the major theropod clades- I may have left off a few of the clades of smallest theropods:

*Coelophysoidea*- 
_Gojirasaurus_

_*Ceratosauria*_- 
_Deltadromeus_
Ceratosauridae- _Ceratosaurus_
Abelisauridae- _Rajasaurus_
Carnotaurini- _Carnotaurus_

*Dilophosauridae*- 
_Dilophosaurus_

*Tetanurae:*
*Megalosauroidea*
Megalosauridae- _Torvosaurus_
Spinosauridae- _Spinosaurus_

*Carnosauria*
Sinraptoridae- _Yangchuanosaurus magnus_
Allosauridae- _Allosaurus amplexus_
_Carcharodontosauria_
Giganotosaurinae- _Giganotosaurus_
Neovenatoridae- 
_Chilantaisaurus_
Megaraptora- _Aerosteon_

*Coelurosauria*
Tyrannosauroidea- _Tyrannosaurus_
Compsognathidae- _Sinocalliopteryx_
Ornithomimosauria- _Deinocheirus_
_Maniraptora_
Oviraptoridae- _Gigantoraptor_
Therizinosauridae- _Therizinosaurus_
Dromaeosauridae- _Utahraptor_
Troodontidae- _Troodon_

Most of these have already been statted out by somebody.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 31, 2009)

Welcome aboard hamishspence!

I hope you won't mind if I make a few constructive criticisms of your take on _Deltadromeus_.

Str 25 and Con 18 seem a bit low for a Huge animal. I'd suggest bumping them up to around Str 28 and Con 21. I'm guessing you picked these numbers by knocking a few points off the SRD Tyrannosaurus's Str and Con, but that dinosaur is woefully weedy for its size (it's Strength is little more than a grizzly bear's!), which is why I did a "Redux" version of Tyrannosaurus the previous page with Str 34.

It's missing a feat. A 15-17HD animal should have six feats, not five.

Speaking of feats, _Deltadromeus_ has Improved Toughness and Powerful Charge among its feats, neither of which are in the SRD. I'd prefer to stick to only SRD feats and have any additional abilities as Special Attacks, since people (myself included!) may not have a source for a novel feat or, worse, there may be several different versions of a feat with the same name and I don't know which one you mean.

For example, the Netbook of Feats has a take on Improved Toughness, but it requires Toughness as a prerequisite, and as this _Deltadromeus_ doesn't have Toughness I'm guessing it isn't that version of Imp. Toughness.

Also, isn't Powerful Charge an extraordinary special attack, not a feat? Why else is it listed in the Special Attack line?

Oh, and if it likes to grapple opponents with its bite and then Rend them, shouldn't it have the Improved Grab special attack too?


----------



## Cleon (Oct 31, 2009)

xidoraven said:


> I'm afraid I must not have subscribed to this page, because I have been checking my subscription list for days now with no activity, and then I come here and realize that I missed a whole load of postings!




Well better late than never.



xidoraven said:


> Update: I love Deinocheirus - I included it in my own list of needed creatures, I believe - or else I decided halfway through my research that it was a therizinosaur and ruled it out against Therizinosaurus - which is incorrect, after reading around a little more.




Have you posted this list of needed creatures somewhere, I haven't seen it? If I see any tempting beasties on it I may well be tempted to stat them up.



xidoraven said:


> I have never heard of Deltadromeus, however it looks in many ways similar to other carnosaurs - what is the largest "Super Predator" size and HD?  Thanks for joining in!  I appreciate all the help we can get.  Make sure I know which creatures to begin crossing off our list for being reviewed and revised, including all applicable stats such as familiars, companions, mounts, training/rearing, etc.  I love your format, Cleon - the MYA and era entries are excellent.




As far as oversized theropods go, I'd guess the uppermost limit is probably somewhere around 45 feet long and 10-12 tons.* Probably (possibly?) slightly longer for _Spinosaurus_, but the remains of that are rather fragmentary (not to mention the type specimen was destroyed during WW2), so it's hard to be sure of much about it. It's also worth bearing in mind we've only got a very small sample. The largest _Tyrannosaurus_ we've found is very unlikely to be the largest that ever lived.

*EDIT: I'm talking Imperial tons or metric tonnes here (they're pretty close in weigh), i.e. 10000-12000kg or 22400-26880 pounds, equaling 11.2-13.44 "short" tons of 2000 lbs.



xidoraven said:


> I would like to do away with the word 'Nova' now that I get what you were hinting at, and simply call them homebrew or else some other term to show that they have been created (or else revised from a half-written or poorly written previous version).  Redux is a good way of pointing out that we know it was published once and we are re-writing it in our own balancing system.  I like that term - I don't see that the other one is necessary.




I've already dropped the "Nova". I only had it in the first batch of creatures, to distinguish between the SRD "dinosaurs" and the non-SRD creatures in that group.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 31, 2009)

hamishspence said:


> If we assume a dinoaur should not extend outside its reach in both directions, but can be just that long, and assume that Large and Huge biped dinosaurs can come in Short and Long reach versions:
> 
> (reasonable- the _Allosaurus_ in MM2, updated to 3.5, is given a 15 ft space 15 ft reach)




That's more or less the rule of thumb I used, except I allowed dinosaurs with exceptionally long necks & tails (e.g. most sauropods) to exceed that limit.

I have doubt about giving theropods a Tall creature's extra reach though, not many of them had particularly long arms or necks.

I disagree with the MM2's take on _Allosaurus_ though. An average specimen of _Allosaurus fragilis_ probably wasn't much over 25 feet long and 1000 kilos, making it a 15'/15' creature is too big, it's more like the upper end of Large-sized, which is what I used in my version of it. Although _Allosaurus _should advance to Huge size, since there's evidence they may have reached ~32-40 feet in length, or had close relatives that reached that size.

EDIT: I also have nothing against making a particularly large theropod Gargantuan sized, even though it may fall short of the desired weight (e.g. 45' and 25000 pounds or so, instead of the 32000+ pounds a Gargantuan creature should have). The SRD Tyrannosaurus goes up to Gargantuan, and I see nothing wrong with a _little_ exaggeration in a fantasy game like D&D.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 31, 2009)

xidoraven said:


> Update: I love Deinocheirus - I included it in my own list of needed creatures, I believe - or else I decided halfway through my research that it was a therizinosaur and ruled it out against Therizinosaurus - which is incorrect, after reading around a little more.
> 
> I like the idea of Deinocheirus as a ant-mound-destroying ornithomimosaur with omnivorous traits and an herbivorous lean.




Ta, it's probably a highly inaccurate interpretation of _Deinocheirus_ but I was aiming for something interesting rather than realistic. (For example, I doubt it had a head big enough for a jaw-gape sufficient for swallowing something human-sized). It's also doubtful something that big would be suited for anteating, but I liked the idea.

Certainly, their were an awful lot of termites back in the Cretaceous, so there could have been _something_ that liked to eat them.


----------



## hamishspence (Oct 31, 2009)

I was basically taking it from the _Serpent Kingdoms_ ceratosaur. I might add another feat. Powerful Charge and Improved Toughness came from MMIII- and the format was to match MMIII monsters.

The reason for long reach- when 45 ft theropod is in running posture- its head out and its tail out- then its snout should end roughly 15 ft in front of a 15 ft circular base- assuming it is placed in such a way that head and tail reach an equal distance either side.

For T. rex- Sue, Samson, and Stan are all on the large side- and T.rex is believed to stop growing in its teens- Sue's estimated age at death was 28.


----------



## hamishspence (Oct 31, 2009)

*Allosaurus*

I agree on _Allosaurus fragilis_ (Average specimen) being large though.

_Allosaurus fragilis- _average adult size- 28 ft long
_Allosaurus fragilis_- maximum normal adult size- 33 ft long

_Allosaurus amplexus-_ sometimes called _Epanterius_, sometimes called a giant specimen of _Allosaurus fragilis_, is the only form of _Allosaurus_ that might possibly qualify- at 39-40 ft long.

The point I was making- is that it's not out of the norm, to give theropods reach as if they were humanoids of the same size. 

They may not have long arms with a weapon held in them, but they do have long bodies, held horizontally- extending their reach compared to your normal Huge quadruped creature.

The MM2 3.0 _Allosaurus_ actually had a 10x10 ft Space but 15 ft reach, as did the D20 Modern _T. rex_.

Upgrading the Space to the normal one for Huge creatures, but leaving the Reach where it is- helps expand Huge Size a little, allowing most of the big theropods (excepting _Spinosaurus_) to fit into the size their weight would suggest is right for them. 

(weight estimates are always iffy, but there was a news article that suggested that most weights need to be revised downward- so it is highly unlikely that there are any theropods weighing around 16 tons- minimum for Gargantuan)

Concerning Spinosaurus- three specimens are known- 

the old destroyed one- estimated 5 ft skull, nose to tail length 46 ft.
the new one discovered by Dal Sasso- 6 ft skull (based on comparisons)- and body length estimated between 52 and 59 ft
and another recently discovered subadult specimen- 5 ft skull, 46 ft long.

While these are all based on rather scanty material- they do make it clear that it was one big animal.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 31, 2009)

hamishspence said:


> I was basically taking it from the _Serpent Kingdoms_ ceratosaur. I might add another feat. Powerful Charge and Improved Toughness came from MMIII- and the format was to match MMIII monsters.




I haven't got either of those products, although I've flicked through them a few times in passing. I vaguely remember seeing the _Ceratosaurus_ in Serpent Kingdoms, and I think it had a _Stegosaurus _too.

But don't mind me, I'm just biased in favour of using SRD feats, since it's easier for everyone else to know what they do, so I'd have just given it a few more points of Con and a Powerful Charge (Ex) Special Attack and used the two vacant slots for something else.



hamishspence said:


> The reason for long reach- when theropod is in runing posture- its head out and its tail out- then its snout should end roughly 15 ft in front of a 15 ft circular base- assuming it is placed it reach an equal distance either size.
> 
> For T. rex- Sue, Samson, and Stan are all on the large side- and T.rex is believed to stop growing in its teens- Sue's estimated age at death was 28.




Yes, I can see were you're coming from there, it's giving theropods with the same basic bauplan different reaches (short & tall) just because one's a bit longer than the other that I don't much care for. I'd rather just make the one with the greater reach Gargantuan and have done with it.

Speaking about reach, since theropods' arm reach is much shorter than their jaw reach I did consider giving them a Tall reach with their bite attack and a Short reach with their claw attacks (assuming it has any). e.g. a Large Theropod would have Space/reach: 10 ft/5 ft (10 ft. with bite).

However, in the end I dropped the idea since all the "official" examples had Short reach. May decide to change that in my versions though.

I'd also considered adding a kick and/or tail-slap attack to many theropods, since they were certainly equipped to make them, considering their clawed feet and flexible tails, but again few examples published in  RPG books have kick attacks (basically just the Dromaeosaurs), and I can't recall any OGL theropods with a tail-slap attack.


----------



## hamishspence (Oct 31, 2009)

MMIII "fleshraker dinosaur" has a tail attack and is described as a dromaeosaur-type (but then, it also has poison)

Also, in 4th ed, the T. rex analog- fang titan drake in 4E MM2- has a tail attack.

The reason I prefer long reach Huge- is that there is precedent (MM2 Allosaurus- 3.5 updated version)- 

and that Short Reach Gargantuan (20 ft space, 15 ft reach), seems a bit on the large side- basically- it assumes the creature is around 50 ft long.

Spinosaurus is Long Reach Gargantuan (20 ft space, 20 ft reach) in the 3.5 update to MM2.

This works well for a 60 ft creature (the upper limit of length estimates)

But doing all the big theropods as Long reach Huge (15 ft space, 15 ft reach- at least with bite) seems to work well with the 45 ft length of most of the biggest theropods.

Plus- weight is a bit of a deciding factor- a 6.5 ton dinosaur just is a bit underweight for gargantuan.

At least for me. 

My preferred Hit Dice number for T. rex is 20- it has a lot of precedent- the D&D Expert Handbook version has 20 Hit Dice, the D20 modern version has 20 Hit Dice, and I'm betting the AD&D 2nd ed version had 20 Hit Dice as well- it has legacy value.

To fill out the size list:

Medium- up to 15 ft long
Large (5 ft reach) around 20 ft long 
Large (10 ft reach) around 30 ft long
Huge (10 ft reach) around 35 ft long
Huge (15 ft reach) around 45 ft long
Gargantuan (15 ft reach) around 50 ft long
Gargantuan (20 ft reach) around 60 ft long

For an example of a creature that would fit into Gargantuan Short Reach far better than T. rex- _Shantungosaurus_ or _Lambeosaurus laticaudus_: both are in the 50 ft long- 16 odd tons in weight- so I think they are much better candidates.


----------



## hamishspence (Nov 1, 2009)

*Base size advancing slower than actual size.*

One possible source of these kind of size debates, is that the base size for WoTC creatures, advances more slowly than the actual height or length of the creature:

Normal minimum sizes (height, or length nose to base of tail):
Medium: 4 ft
Large: 8 ft
Huge: 16 ft
Gargantuan: 32 ft
Colossal: 64 ft

But base size advances:
Medium- 5 ft
Large- 10 ft
Huge- 15 ft
Gargantuan- 20 ft
Colossal- 30 ft

This results in creatures at the high-end dwarfing the base given to them.

The Huge Eldritch Giant in one of the miniatures sets, is a dramatic example of this- despite being supposed to be 25 ft tall- roughly equivalent to a 6 ft 3 inch man, it is on a 15 ft base- and looks horribly cramped.

http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/mg/wotdq

On the other hand, the actual mini may be, relative to a "six foot" mini, a little bigger than the 25 ft height given for it.

Still, the point stands.

If they followed the same geometric formula, doubling every time, it would be:
Medium 5 ft base
Large 10 ft base
Huge 20 ft base
Gargantuan 40 ft base
Colossal 80 ft base

Also- how big does a creature look, next to a "man-sized" creature in its suggested size class?

When one uses the mid-range heights for each category:

Medium- 6 ft
Large- 12 ft
Huge- 24 ft
Gargantuan- 48 ft
Colossal- 96 ft

Then, next to a 48 ft tall Gargantuan humanoid- a 46 ft long, 16 ft tall T. rex (13 ft tall at the hip) looks pretty puny.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 1, 2009)

hamishspence said:


> MMIII "fleshraker dinosaur" has a tail attack and is described as a dromaeosaur-type (but then, it also has poison)
> 
> Also, in 4th ed, the T. rex analog- fang titan drake in 4E MM2- has a tail attack.




Well I'd consider both of those Fantasy Dinosaurs so they aren't really relevant. Now I quite like fantasy versions of theropod dinosaurs, but they're not really germane to this thread.



hamishspence said:


> The reason I prefer long reach Huge- is that there is precedent (MM2 Allosaurus- 3.5 updated version)




I have a couple of problems with that approach. Firstly, it's a holdover from the 3.0 edition of D&D. In the original 3rd edition Monster Manual both _Tyrannosaurus_ and _Megaraptor_ were Huge Tall creatures too (10  [FONT=&quot]×[/FONT]10 space, 15 foot reach). When they updated to 3.5 they changed them both to short-reach creatures, and dropped Megaraptor down to Large.

Making _Tyrannosaurus_ or _Allosaurus_ the same space/reach as a 16-32 foot tall giant doesn't jibe very well with me, at least for a version based on more modern reconstructions (I have no objection to a 3.0 edition Tall _Tyrannosaurus_ as a towering tail-dragger straight out of a pulp novel or b&w film).

If the _Tyrannosaurus_ and _Allosaurus_ were Huge Long creature (10  [FONT=&quot]×[/FONT]20 space, 10 foot reach) under 3.0 rules they would work out about 40 feet long under the Space plus twice Reach rule-of-thumb (20+10+10), which seems a perfectly good fit.



hamishspence said:


> and that Short Reach Gargantuan (20 ft space, 15 ft reach), seems a bit on the large side- basically- it assumes the creature is around 50 ft long.
> 
> Spinosaurus is Long Reach Gargantuan (20 ft space, 20 ft reach) in the 3.5 update to MM2.
> 
> ...




Yes, well I tend to consider those weight limits more are guidelines. There are a fair few creatures that break them. For example, the SRD lion is Large sized and listed as weighing 330-550 pounds for the larger males. If, say, an average lion weighs 350 pounds that's 70% of the minimum standard weight limit of a Large creature. A Gargantuan beast with the same 70% mass would be 22400 pounds, which is pretty much spot on the upper weight estimates for the largest theropods - except for _Spinosaurus aegypticus_, of course.

I imagine Theropod dinosaurs were pretty lightweight but extremely strong, they did have weight saving adaptations involving air-sacs and hollowed bones after all, so I consider a Gargantuan short-reached _Tyrannosaurus_ quite acceptable. Besides, the 3.5 edition SRD _Tyrannosaurus _advances to Gargantuan size, and I didn't want to change it. Although I draw the line at the 3.0 and d20 Modern version which advances to Colossal, that's as crazy as the SRD tiger growing to Huge size!

Besides, I'm happy to allow for a 50 foot long carnosaur. Even if we don't have any reliable fossil evidence they grew that big, it's not that much longer than the largest known non-Spinosaur, and I consider a bit of exaggeration quite forgivable in a fantasy RPG like D&D.

And remember, I'm not arguing that all of the "supersize" carnosaurs should be Gargantuan, only exceptionally big outliers. E.g. the vast majority of adult _Giganotosaurus_ would be Huge, but very rare individuals have advanced enough extra Hit Dice to become Gargantuan.



hamishspence said:


> My preferred Hit Dice number for T. rex is 20- it has a lot of precedent- the D&D Expert Handbook version has 20 Hit Dice, the D20 modern version has 20 Hit Dice, and I'm betting the AD&D 2nd ed version had 20 Hit Dice as well- it has legacy value.




Afraid not, the D&D Tyrannosaurus had 18 Hit Dice in both 1st and 2nd edition AD&D, so if anything the D&D SRD's 18 HD has 'Legacy Value'.



hamishspence said:


> To fill out the size list:
> 
> Medium- up to 15 ft long
> Large (5 ft reach) around 20 ft long
> ...




I still don't care for switching between long and short reach for different sized animals.

Firstly, they're build in the same proportions, so I'd prefer them to have the same reach.

Secondly, it raises a problem with Advancement, especially with theropods that have a wide range of sizes. Wouldn't you'd be having thing like Advancement: 7-10 HD (Large short); 8-14 (Large long); 15-12 (Huge short)?

That just seems cumbersome to me.



hamishspence said:


> For an example of a creature that would fit into Gargantuan Short Reach far better than T. rex- _Shantungosaurus_ or _Lambeosaurus laticaudus_: both are in the 50 ft long- 16 odd tons in weight- so I think they are much better candidates.




Yes, the largest hadrosaur species would certainly be Gargantuan in 3E D&D terms as "average adults". That's not really what I'm shooting for with theropods, were I fancy having particularly big specimens reaching that size after a lot of HD Advancement.


----------



## hamishspence (Nov 1, 2009)

*Size*

So, Huge for normal sized specimens of:

_T. rex_
_Carcharodontosaurus_
_Epanterias (Allosaurus amplexus)_
_Giganotosaurus_

etc, and Gargantuan for advanced versions? That would be more workable.

Maybe reserve the Tall category for ones with an unusual stance, like _Therizinosaurus_.

The main reason for splitting the two sizes was for ones that, while both being, say, 30 ft or less and well under 2 tonnes in weight, 

was that I see a 20 ft 1100 pound dinosaur, as being small enough, to need a different Reach, from a 30 ft 2000 pound dinosaur.

I think _Allosaurus fragilis_ (normal specimen) should be Large Long Reach, rather than Huge Long Reach, as MM2 3.5 errata stats it out as.

It may be odd for 3.5 to do some theropod bipeds as Long Reach, but its an interesting way of handling it.

Given that the 10 ton estimates are tending to be revised downward to more like 8 tons or less, even for the largest _T. rex_, 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/dinosaurs/4884881/Tyrannosaurus-Rex-was-a-lean-mean-hunter.html

I figured reintroducing Long Reach as per MM2, made more sense- and maybe not having them advance out of their size categories.

Unless it seems essential.

My version:
_Austrolovenator_- 10 ft space, 5 ft reach
_Allosaurus fragilis_- 10 ft space, 10 ft reach
_Saurophagnax_- 15 ft space, 10 ft reach
_Tyrannosaurus rex-_ 15 ft space, 15 ft reach
_Spinosaurus_- 20 ft space, 20 ft reach

Most theropods aren't going to cross the size line anyway- 
a 39 ft adult T.rex and a 45 ft outsized adult T.rex are both going to be Huge 15 ft reach- better for the smaller ones to have a very slightly excessive reach, than for the big ones to be vastly underweight and under-reach for their size.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 1, 2009)

hamishspence said:


> This is a list of the major theropod clades- I may have left off a few of the clades of smallest theropods:
> 
> *Coelophysoidea*-
> _Gojirasaurus_
> ...




That looks like it covers everything important.

I'm not sure what's the point of statting as many different theropods as we've got in the index. In game-mechanical terms there is often very little to distinguish between different genera or even families of dinosaur - a 30 foot long _Allosaurus fragilis_ would probably be identical to a 30 foot long _Acrocanthosaurus_ _atokensis_ as far as its D&D stats go, or nearly so. We could probably boil it down to a few representative types of theropod, something like:

*Standard Carnosaur*s (e.g. _Allosaurus_) - largish, fairly fast, slashing bite, medium-sized claws. Includes other Allosauridae up to the size of _Giganotosaurus_. We could probably lump Ceratosaurs in here as far as their stats go.
*Gracile Carnosaur*s (e.g. _Dilophosaurus_) - slim, fast, smallish head, medium-small claws.
*Clawed Carnosaurs* (e.g. _Baryonyx_, _Megaraptor_) - Carnivorous theropods with unusually large arms & claws, may be piscovores, not necessarily closely related to other Clawed Carnosaurs.
*'Velociraptors'* (e.g. _Deinonychus_) - fast & agile, well armed with claws, talons & teeth.
*Gracile Velociraptors* (e.g. _Troodon_) - slimmer and faster than above, but not as strong.
*Tyrannosaurs* (e.g. _Tyrannosaurus_) - large & strong, bigger brains, powerful crushing & tearing bite, tiny claws.
*Gracile Tyrannosaurs* (e.g. _Albertosaurus_) - faster than the above, with less powerful jaws.
*Abelisaurs *(e.g. _Abelisaurus_) - slow but powerful, short skull may have allowed for a pit-bull like wrestling with larger prey animals, tiny arms.
*Therizinosaurs* (e.g. _Therizinosaurus_) - bizarre barrel-bodied theropods with huge claws. Probably herbivores.
*Ornithomimids* (e.g. _Ornithomimus_) - fast, with long 3-clawed arms but a negligible peck. Maybe omnivores.
*Oviraptors* (e.g. _Oviraptor_) - small, fast, medium claws, beaked. Maybe omnivores.

Then you just need stats for each size category, and if you want a _Majungasaurus_ you simply use a "10 HD Large _Abelisaurus_".

I think that about covers all the theropod bodyplans, except for a couple of the bizarre ones like _Avimimus_ or _Incisivosaurus_, which would probably need statting up separately - assuming we consider its worthwhile, since neither represent a threat to adventurers, although they may represent a meal...

_Deinocheirus_ is also strange enough it deserves its own stats, and we can always add some hypothetical traits to create odd 'sports' such as venomous Coelophysids, chameleon-skinned Velociraptors and the like.


----------



## hamishspence (Nov 1, 2009)

*now this is a pretty fair summary of major groups needed*



Cleon said:


> I have a couple of problems with that approach. Firstly, it's a holdover from the 3.0 edition of D&D. In the original 3rd edition Monster Manual both _Tyrannosaurus_ and _Megaraptor_ were Huge Tall creatures too (10 [FONT=&quot]×[/FONT]10 space, 15 foot reach). When they updated to 3.5 they changed them both to short-reach creatures, and dropped Megaraptor down to Large.




Technically, Megaraptor wasn't dropped to Large (and Deinonychus to Medium) until the 3.5 errata to the Monster Manual- the print copy of 3.5 rulebook leaves them as Huge and Large.



Cleon said:


> Making _Tyrannosaurus_ or _Allosaurus_ the same space/reach as a 16-32 foot tall giant doesn't jibe very well with me, at least for a version based on more modern reconstructions (I have no objection to a 3.0 edition Tall _Tyrannosaurus_ as a towering tail-dragger straight out of a pulp novel or b&w film).




Actually- that's the kind I would have done with Short Reach- with its body held nearly upright- its head can't reach very far forward.

Whereas with body held horizontally- the jaws are a _long_ way forward of the feet.

Concerning largest members of each general group:

I might place _Deltadromeus_ as the point where Gracile Carnosaur tops out- its long and lean- 44 ft long but only 3.5 tons in weight- (these are just estimates though- based on fragmentary material- the holotype is smaller.)

_Gojirasaurus_ and _Dilophosaurus_ work well for smaller ones- they are of similar size and build.

Clawed carnosaurs should probably be split into Spinosaur-type and Neovenator type- with the recent work on the Neovenatorid clade- that includes _Megaraptor_.

_Irritator_ works as the smaller spinosaur, _Spinosaurus_ itself as the biggest- with _Suchiomimus_ and _Baryonyx_ mid-way between them.

The Neovenatorids, by contrast, are big, fast carnosaurs with unusually long arms and very big claws- ranging from _Fukuiraptor_- the smallest- to _Megaraptor_ midway in size, to _Chilantaisaurus_- the largest- estimated size 11.5 metres long and 3.5 tons.

_Ceratosaurus_ is actually somewhat atypical of ceratosaurs- most are either slim (_Elaphrosaurus_, _Deltadromeus, Noasaurus_) or chunky with miniscule arms (_Carnotaurus_) So it fits well with the non-gracile carnosaurs.

While there is some debate on how the larger, shorter-armed allosauroids attacked, there was also a lot of work done on them- specifically _Acrocanthosaurus._

To sum up, it was concluded that they either grabbed their prey with arms, and held it close to their body for easy biting- Or, they bit, held prey with jaws, and raked repeatedly with their arms, since their arms are strong but not very mobile.

Either way- the Standard Carnosaur type should have both a bite attack, and claw attacks. Though possibly, their claws only came into play in a grapple.

Special note- depite being tyrannosauroids, the early ones, especially _Dryptosaurus_, had quite long arms and big claws- might fit better into "generic carnosaur" or even "clawed carnosaur" than either type of tyrannosaur.


----------



## hamishspence (Nov 1, 2009)

*Possible groupings*

*Generic Carnosaur*- 
Smallest- _Monolophosaurus_- Large (17 ft long, 1500 pounds)
Largest- _Giganotosaurus_- Huge (41 ft long, more than 6.5 tons)

http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Giganotosaurus

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Giganotosaurus

Notice thse articles are identical to the wikipedia article in every way except one- instead of "surpassed T-rex by nearly a meter" it is "surpassed T-rex by half a ton"- which suggests someone has been editing.

*Clawed Carnosaur-*
Smallest- _Fukuiraptor_- Medium (14 ft long, 175 kilos)
Largest- _Chilantaisaurus_- Huge (36 ft long, 2.5 tonnes)

These are a couple of the links on the subject of Neovenatorids:

http://www.springerlink.com/content/l496325vp2x32617/

http://manasataramgini.wordpress.com/2009/10/18/of-allosaurs-and-megalosaurs/

*Tyrannosaur*-
Smallest- _Raptorex_ (9 ft long, 150 pounds)
Largest- _Tyrannosaurus_ (42 ft long, 7 tons)

http://www.fieldmuseum.org/sue/about_vital.asp

http://palaeoblog.blogspot.com/2006/04/new-biggest-t-rex-skull.html

http://www.scientificblogging.com/news_articles/raptorex_trex_ancestor_weighed_much_man

These are the first few that spring to mind.

Also- an interesting thing is, that lots of different groups each came in short and long armed forms.

Tyrannosauroids, allosauroids, ceratosaurs, and even dromaeosaurs (one group of dromaeosaurs has very short limbs- the family Unenlagiinae- of which one of the largest is the 16 ft _Austroraptor_.)

which can be problematic when deciding how many Clawed/Short Armed groups there should be.

EDIT: Also- I've managed to track down the article concerning weights (for theropods and sauropods) being revised downward.

And provided links (and a few corrections to earlier data) for how I am getting the sizes listed.

http://blog.everythingdinosaur.co.uk/blog/_archives/2009/6/22/4230640.html


----------



## xidoraven (Nov 3, 2009)

*considerations for statting creatures*

I apologize for not commenting on all of this so far, but there is a lot here and more every time I show up.  Which means two things: you guys rock, and my ability to soak information is dwindling (probably because I am overworking myself and stressing over moving soon).

Now here's my thoughts on this whole categorizing thing...  Since it's obvious that evolutionary "between" species and some groups of variants and/or similar species like or unlike those of others, this project as it stands on that timeline could potentially take as long as the original taxonomy of the original critters.

SO my idea is instead of trying to group them all at first and dissect them that way, choose a few that you are very familiar with, and give them some general outline of stats that you think would be credible (especially if something the previous unreviewed version is cool enough to inspire a flavor idea).  For example, Stegosaurus - Huge - 16HD, +6 natural armor (these are BS stats, I am just making an example)...  Now Dacentrurus is similar but somewhat different.  Maybe I would make that Dacentrurus - Huge - 14HD, +5 natural armor, and so on.

I think that if we get a good grouping of dinosaurs (AND other prehistoric animals, mind you) that seem "iconic" that will help to establish a precendent, and we can stat out similar creatures from there.  Does EVERY creature on this list needs its own list of stats and flavor text?  No.   BUT, they could at least get a mention in a VERY similar creature's entry claiming that they could use the same stats, or we could even feature mini-stat blocks, which simply state the specific ways in which they differ from another creature stat block.  This would help, say for example, between Deinonychus and Velociraptor - similar, but just close enough to call it.

This would mean we could end up with a basic list of animals with simple stats that we could then compare and really start blocking out all the animals.  I also noticed we are looking into this project taxonomically, which I think we should avoid.  We should try and look at it as though we are balancing out and evaluating stats as they apply to all animals, and not just the ones on the top of our minds.  It's easy to think of this project as simply delineating dinosaur species, but because there was such a long evolutionary line of creatures that all evolved, devolved, and changed in such unique ways, there is a lot of crossover and debatables.  I think we should avoid that in favor of comparing the creatures for how they stand up in combat and as statistics.  This will make it much easier to balance them and compare them for statistic precedence.

Dear God, I hope that made sense - it didn't work for me after re-reading.  I think what I am trying to get across is that we should begin statting out how we believe they are right and wrong in the ways we have seen them represented, and start with some real basic comparisons between two or so creature stats and which other creatures might utilize similar or the same stats & flavor text.

I don't have any books or material in front of me to make educated examples, but see what I said above so you know what I mean.  I am really behind on this one right now because I have to pack and move to some undecided location soon.  I think that the creatures that Cleon statted up here earlier are a great start and we could use them as precedent for now until you get further into the others.  Sorry I couldn't be more helpful - I am super tired and a little delerious.  
-will


----------



## hamishspence (Nov 3, 2009)

*Statting out.*

This is an interesting way of looking at it.

Though personally, given that Velociraptor is a lot lighter and shorter than Deinonychus, i'd say a better example would be:

Velociraptor- 2 HD Small creature with Improved Natural Attack- claws
Dromaeosaurus- 2 HD Small creature with Improved Natural Attack- bite

This is a more dramatic example of animals which are similar in nearly every way (height 1.6 ft at hip, length 6 ft, weight 33lb) except one- their main weapon.

Since Dromaeosaurus has a very heavily built skull and strong bite, and Velociraptor doesn't (but has quite big foot claws).

Breaking it down into the "major species" with ones that differ only slightly (in size, or weaponry) getting the mini statblock describing the modifications- is an interesting idea.

You could probably think of other examples-
_Achillobator_: 7 HD Large Deinonychus
_Utahraptor_: As Achillobator but 8 HD
_Austroraptor_: As Achillobator but no forearm claw attacks

And so on.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 3, 2009)

hamishspence said:


> Actually- that's the kind I would have done with Short Reach- with its body held nearly upright- its head can't reach very far forward.
> 
> Whereas with body held horizontally- the jaws are a _long_ way forward of the feet.




Contrariwise, I imagine Reach as representing how far away a creature can 
 attack opponents from its 'rest' position. Thus, I think of a Huge pulp Tyrannosaurus as standing in a smaller area (a 10 by 10 foot Space), but when it lunges forward to bite it can lean down to be parallel to the ground, stretch out its neck and take a step forward, allowing it to attack a long distance from its Space. A more realistic 'horizontal' Tyrannosaur, by contrast, can only stretch out its neck and take a step, so wouldn't get as much distance on a strike.



hamishspence said:


> Clawed carnosaurs should probably be split into Spinosaur-type and Neovenator type- with the recent work on the Neovenatorid clade- that includes _Megaraptor_.




I was going to suggest that too, with 'Clawed Carnosaurs' for the fast-running big clawed types such as _Neovenator_. I think there's enough functional differences between the two to give them different D&D stats - Spinosaurs were probably a bit slower and had teeth & jaws better suited for securing small, struggling prey than Neovenator's more allosauroid slashing/serrated teeth. We can hypothesize the latter were better adapted for chasing down fleet medium-small prey than a Spinosaurs.

Furthermore, I was toying with the idea of splitting Spinosaurs into regular (most of them) and robust varieties (basically _Baryonyx_, which seems significantly sturdier than an average Spiny). Maybe easier just to treat _Baryonyx_ as an exception.



hamishspence said:


> _Ceratosaurus_ is actually somewhat atypical of ceratosaurs- most are either slim (_Elaphrosaurus_, _Deltadromeus, Noasaurus_) or chunky with miniscule arms (_Carnotaurus_) So it fits well with the non-gracile carnosaurs.




I think we can consider them adequately represented by Standard Carnosaurs and Abelisaurs.

We could probably do with coming up with other 'generic' names than Abelisaurs and the other categories we're still using the scientific terms for - Shortfaced Carnosaurs for Abelisaurs? Tyrant Carnosaurs for regular Tyrannosaurs and Gracile Tyrants for Albertosaurus types?

Not sure what would be a good term for Spinosaurus-types. 'Fishing Carnosaurs' is inaccurate, since they're a more generalist feeder.



> Special note- depite being tyrannosauroids, the early ones, especially _Dryptosaurus_, had quite long arms and big claws- might fit better into "generic carnosaur" or even "clawed carnosaur" than either type of tyrannosaur.




Myself, I'd put Old Laelaps in Clawed Carnosaur, since it appears to be a swift, agile runner with an oversized hand-claw. That, and it'd be a good fit with the famous Charles Knight painting.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 3, 2009)

hamishspence said:


> *Generic Carnosaur*-
> Smallest- _Monolophosaurus_- Large (17 ft long, 1500 pounds)
> Largest- _Giganotosaurus_- Huge (41 ft long, more than 6.5 tons)
> 
> ...




My preference would be to go smaller than that, to allow for self-sufficient juveniles (I think it's probably that at least some theropods were highly precocious, hunting for themselves shortly after hatching). It would also allow for hypothetical undiscovered smaller species - there may be lots of species we haven't found fossils of.

Also, what about Herrerasaurs? Those primitive theropods would probably fit quite well in either Classic or Gracile Carnosaur, but they're not very big (6-20 feet).



hamishspence said:


> Also- an interesting thing is, that lots of different groups each came in short and long armed forms.
> 
> Tyrannosauroids, allosauroids, ceratosaurs, and even dromaeosaurs (one group of dromaeosaurs has very short limbs- the family Unenlagiinae- of which one of the largest is the 16 ft _Austroraptor_.)




I think we've got those pretty well covered with the current categories, except for the Short-Armed Raptors. I'll add one in.

Speaking of raptors, the current category list could do adding 'Flapping Raptors' with well developed arm feathers. Maybe posit them as tree or cliff dwellers, with a racial bonus to Climb or an actual climb speed, with some genera (e.g. _Microraptor_) even capable of limited flight.

EDIT: Here's a revised theropod category list:

*Standard Carnosaur*s (e.g. _Allosaurus_) - largish, fairly fast, slashing bite, medium-sized claws. Includes other Allosauridae up to the size of _Giganotosaurus_. We could probably lump Ceratosaurs in here as far as their stats go.
*Gracile Carnosaur*s (e.g. _Dilophosaurus_) - slim, fast, smallish head, medium-small claws.
*Clawed Carnosaurs *(e.g. _Megaraptor_) - Carnivorous theropods with unusually large arms & claws and smallish heads with slashing teeth. Swift and gracile, may have chased down agile prey.
*Crocodile Carnosaurs *(e.g. _Spinosaurus_) Largish arms and claws. Slim jaws with pointed teeth for wriggling prey. may be piscovores._Baryonyx_may be a robust version. *[not sure I like the name, but it's better than 'Fishing Carnosaurs']*
*Short-Faced Carnosaurs *(e.g. _Abelisaurus_) - slow but powerful, short skull may have allowed for a pit-bull like wrestling with larger prey animals, tiny arms.
*Tyrant Kings* (e.g. _Tyrannosaurus_) - large & strong, bigger brains, powerful crushing & tearing bite, tiny claws.
*Gracile Tyrants *(e.g. _Albertosaurus_) - faster than the above, with less powerful jaws.
*'Raptors'* (e.g. _Deinonychus_) - fast & agile, well armed with claws, talons & teeth. *[Maybe call them Terror Claws?]*
*Gracile Raptors* (e.g. _Troodon_) - slimmer and faster than above, but not as strong.
*Short-Armed Raptors* (e.g. _Austroraptor_). Unusually small arms and slim jaws. Maybe particularly fast pursuers of small prey?
*Flapping Raptors* (e.g. _Unenlagia_, _Microraptor_). Very small, with wings or winglike forearms. Some may have had limited flight, maybe good climbers that lived on trees or cliffs.
*Beaked Raptors* (e.g. _Oviraptor_) - small, fast, medium claws, beaked. Maybe omnivores. *[I decided to drop 'Oviraptor' since calling them 'egg thieves' would give the wrong impression of their habits]
**Scythe Claws* (e.g. _Therizinosaurus_) - bizarre barrel-bodied theropods with huge claws. Probably herbivores.
*Ostrich Mimics* (e.g. _Ornithomimus_) - fast, with long 3-clawed arms but a negligible peck. Maybe omnivores.


----------



## hamishspence (Nov 3, 2009)

*very nice.*

I was picking the smallest adult sizes (it''s not clear if Fukuiraptor was adult or not, but there were a lot of much smaller juveniles found in the same area)

So we could certainly include smaller ones for juveniles.

What I find interesting is after a lot of digging around on the net- the notion of _Giganotosaurus_ being longer and more heavily built than T. Rex starts to look a bit iffy.

Since the actual holotype (70% complete) was estimated as 12.2-12.5 metres long and 5 tons, and the larger specimen (a single jaw fragment) was estimated at 13.2 m long and 6.2 tons:

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Giganotosaurus

it suddenly looks rather less impressive.

I get similar results for _Carcharodontosaurus iguidensis_- one of the longest carcharodontosaurids.

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Carcharodontosaurushttp://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Giganotosaurus

So maybe they should have a similar number of Hit dice, space, reach, etc, to T.rex.

Apparently Pathfinder has statted out T. rex- as a Gargantuan creature with 20 ft space, 20 ft reach.

Pathfinder]Dinosaur 

Seems a bit oversized.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 3, 2009)

xidoraven said:


> This would mean we could end up with a basic list of animals with simple stats that we could then compare and really start blocking out all the animals.  I also noticed we are looking into this project taxonomically, which I think we should avoid.  We should try and look at it as though we are balancing out and evaluating stats as they apply to all animals, and not just the ones on the top of our minds.  It's easy to think of this project as simply delineating dinosaur species, but because there was such a long evolutionary line of creatures that all evolved, devolved, and changed in such unique ways, there is a lot of crossover and debatables.  I think we should avoid that in favor of comparing the creatures for how they stand up in combat and as statistics.  This will make it much easier to balance them and compare them for statistic precedence.




Erm, avoiding a taxonomy-first approach in favour of a D&D statistics-first is why I'm doing these body-type categories. A 'Clawed Chaser' could be a an advanced Neovenatorid Allosaur like _Megaraptor_ or a primitive Tyrannosaur like _Dryptosaurus_, taxonomically distant but game-mechanically similar.

They'll both be Large dinosaurs about 25-30 feet long, with a high speed (probably 50 or 60 feet), biggish claws (1d8?) and a pretty heavy bite (2d6?), but won't be as powerful (slightly lower Strength and HD?) as a typical Large-sized version of the more robust Classic Carnosaurs or Tyrant Kings.

We could differentiate the two by giving them different feat selections, such as Improved Natural Attack (bite) to give the _Dryptosaurus_ a crushing Tyrannosauroid bite, and Improved Natural Attack (claw) for the _Megaraptor's_ foot-long hand-talons. Although I'd personally just give bump of the damage a bit, so the actual entry may look something like:
_
Dryptosaurus_ - 12HD Huge Clawed Chaser, increase bite to 2d8 damage.
_Megaraptor_ - 12HD Huge Clawed Chaser, increase claws to 1d10 damage.

EDIT: Oh blast it, I've just noticed my Megaraptor Redux back in post #7 is missing a couple of feats. It should have 5 feats for its 12HD, but only has 3 listed. I'll add Run and Weapon Focus (bite).


----------



## hamishspence (Nov 3, 2009)

*Generic dinosaurs*

This idea of a basic "template" on which little modifications can be added (a feat, or increased damage- to distinguish the more different specimens (Dryptosaurus and Megaraptor, for example) does seem logical.

(maybe a standard "attack routine" could be given- bite and grapple, with free rake attacks, for generic carnosaurs like _Acrocanthosaurus,_ and something else for the Clawed Chasers)

Aside from the T-rex, Pathfinder does seem to get most of the sizes right (which is more than I can say for 3.0)-

And it lists _Deinonychus_ as Medium, with modifications to reduced it to Small for _Velociraptor_, or Large for "megaraptor" by which they appear to mean giant dromaeosaurs like Achillobator and Utahraptor.

Should Daspletosaurus (the smallest robust Tyrannosaur I know of) be low-end Huge, or high-end Large?


----------



## hamishspence (Nov 3, 2009)

Cleon said:


> Contrariwise, I imagine Reach as representing how far away a creature can
> attack opponents from its 'rest' position. Thus, I think of a Huge pulp Tyrannosaurus as standing in a smaller area (a 10 by 10 foot Space), but when it lunges forward to bite it can lean down to be parallel to the ground, stretch out its neck and take a step forward, allowing it to attack a long distance from its Space. A more realistic 'horizontal' Tyrannosaur, by contrast, can only stretch out its neck and take a step, so wouldn't get as much distance on a strike.




The point I was trying to make was- in horizontal position- with its centre of mass above the centre of its space- its jaws _already_ end roughly 15 ft away from the edge of the "miniature base" so to speak- it doesn't need to take a step forward- because its mouth is already in the right place.

Same principle applies to a 30 ft Large theropod- it's at "stretch" posture- with its head and jaws ending 10 ft in front, and its tail ending 10 feet behind.

While the whole Short-long reach thing can be tricky- it might be possible (since some groups never get bigger than 20 ft) to reserve Long Reach (alternatively known as Normal Biped Reach) for the chunky ones.

For example:

Gracile Carnosaurs and most Raptors could be Short Reach, 

Carnosaurs, Tyrannosaurs, Spinosaur-types, and the like, could be Normal Reach- since most of them have a 25-30 ft form, and/or a 40-45 ft (or almost) form:

*Carnosaur*- 25-30 ft (_Megalosaurus, Ceratosaurus, Allosaurus_)
40-45 ft- (_Giganotosaurus, Epanterias, Torvosaurus_)

*Clawed, Fast Carnosaur*- 25-30 ft (_Dryptosaurus, Megaraptor, Aerosteon_)
40-45 ft- (_Chilantaisaurus, _possibly _Deltadromeus_)

*Massive-jawed Carnosaur*- 25-30 ft (_Daspletosaurus_)
40-45 ft (_Tarbosaurus_, _Tyrannosaurus_)

*Short-faced Carnosaur*- 25-30 ft (_Carnotaurus_)

*Long-snouted Carnosaur - *25-30ft (_Irritator, Baryonyx_)
40-45 ft (_Suchomimus_)
50-60 ft (_Spinosaurus_)

You get the idea- most can get away with being Long Reach (that is- same reach distance as their Space).

And- aside from Ceratosaurus- most ceratosaurs, such as Elaphrosaurus- were around 20 ft long and very slim- so can be lumped in with Gracile Carnosaurs.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 3, 2009)

hamishspence said:


> I was picking the smallest adult sizes (it''s not clear if Fukuiraptor was adult or not, but there were a lot of much smaller juveniles found in the same area)
> 
> So we could certainly include smaller ones for juveniles.




Yes, not to mention there are a lot of other dinosaurs best represented by subadult specimens. (e.g. _Nanotyrannus_)



hamishspence said:


> What I find interesting is after a lot of digging around on the net- the notion of _Giganotosaurus_ being longer and more heavily built than T. Rex starts to look a bit iffy.
> 
> *SNIP*
> 
> ...




I agree, a big (~13 metre) Carcharodontosaurid would probably weigh about the same as an average sized (9-10 metre?) _Tyrannosaurus rex_. The rex may be shorter, but they've got a much more robust build.

There's certainly little call to give them 24 or 30 Hit Dice, like the two examples on the wizards board.



hamishspence said:


> Apparently Pathfinder has statted out T. rex- as a Gargantuan creature with 20 ft space, 20 ft reach.
> 
> Pathfinder]Dinosaur
> 
> Seems a bit oversized.




Seems that way to me too, Huge is quite enough. It's not that bad a set of stats though, I'd just drop the size and leave everything else the same, ability scores included.

I'm a lot less impressed by Pathfinder's take on _Ankylosaurus_.

Constitution 17 and 10 Hit Dice for a Huge 30-foot Ankylosaur? that's pathetic!

In my humble opinion a 30-foot _Ankylosaurus_ should be so tough few predatory dinosaurs would want to take it on, this version would be killed by the Pathfinder _Tyrannosaurus_ in a few chomps. (Average bite damage 36, average _Ankylosaurus_ hit points 75).

Fortunately I have a solution - I've statted up my own take on the Armoured Dinosaurs, so now I'm motivated to post them.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 3, 2009)

hamishspence said:


> Should Daspletosaurus (the smallest robust Tyrannosaur I know of) be low-end Huge, or high-end Large?




I'd definitely say Huge for _Daspletosaurus_.

Anyway, I'll just dig out those thyreophorans and post them...


----------



## Cleon (Nov 3, 2009)

*Building a Better Stegosaurus*

*Stegosaurs
Stegosaurs* *lived* *from* *the* *Mid* *Jurassic* *to* *Early* *Cretaceous* *(175-100* *MYA)
*
*Stegosaurus*
*Late* *Jurassic* *(150-145* *MYA)
*Huge Animal
*Hit* *Dice:* 13d8+78 (136 hp)
*Initiative:* +3
*Speed:* 20 ft. (4 squares)
*Armor* *Class:* 18 (–2 size, –1 Dex, +11 natural), touch 7, flat-footed 18
*Base* *Attack/Grapple:* +9/+25
*Attack:* Tail-spikes +16 melee (3d8+12/×3) or offensive armour +15 melee (2d6+8)
*Full* *Attack:* Tail-spikes +16 melee (3d8+12/×3) and offensive armour +10 melee (2d6+4)
*Space/Reach:* 15 ft./10 ft. (15 ft. with tail-spikes)
*Special* *Attacks:* Offensive armour 2d6+12, thagomizer
*Special* *Qualities:* Damage reduction 6/–, fortification, low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +14, Ref +7, Will +5
*Abilities:* Str 26, Dex 9, Con 23, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 6
*Skills:* Listen +11, Spot +11
*Feats:* Alertness, Endurance, Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (tail-spikes)
*Environment:* Temperate or warm plains and forests
*Organization:* Solitary, pair or herd (3-6)
*Challenge* *Rating:* 7
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 14–20 HD (Huge); 21–39 HD (Gargantuan)
*Level* *Adjustment:* —

A _Stegosaurus_ has a bulky body, a powerful tail tipped with 4 formidable spikes and small, narrow head with a tortoise-like beak. A double row of triangular plates runs the length of its back. The tail is thick and powerful, taking up almost half the animal's body length, so the dinosaur's huge hind legs are set near the middle of the animal. Its front legs are sturdy but much shorter than the hind legs, so its head is normally held low to the ground.

These dinosaurs are solitary herbivores, usually only congregating to breed. They can graze on low vegetation or rear up to browse on taller plants. A _Stegosaurus's_ centre of balance is near its massive hind legs, which allows it to rear up onto a tripod formed from its hind legs and tail to reach tall vegetation or get a better sense of its surroundings. It can also turn around with surprising alacrity by pushing sideways with its forelegs.

A _Stegosaurus_ has excellent defences. Its thick skin provides good armour, and is reinforced with bony ossicles over its throat and flanks, fortifying those vulnerable areas from attack. The large plates along its back are too thin to be effective armour. The cluster of four spikes at the tip of its tail is a lethally effective weapon called a Thagomizer, named after the late Neanderthal zoologist-adventurer Thag Simmons,.

A full grown _Stegosaurus _is between 25 and 30 feet long from nose to tail-tip, and weighs from 5,000 to 10,000 pounds. Extremely large individuals can approach a Gargantuan 40 feet in length. A typical 25-30 foot long _Stegosaurus_ is 11-13½ tall, including 2-2½ feet of height from its largest dorsal plates, with the actual back standing 9-11 feet above the ground. The spikes on their thagomizer can exceed a yard in length.

*Combat*
A _Stegosaurus_ will pugnaciously defend itself from threats, responding surprisingly promptly for such a bulky animal. They attack with body-slams and swings of their tail-spikes, and can use the plates and spikes of their armour to cut and stab at any creature grappling with them.

*Damage* *Reduction* *(Ex):* A _Stegosaurus_ has a Damage Reduction equal to half its Hit Dice.

*Fortification* *(Ex):* Whenever a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on a _Stegosaurus_ there is a 50% chance that the special attack is negated and its damage is rolled normally.
*
Offensive* *Armour* *(Ex):* A _Stegosaurus_ can use its spikes, plates and body-slams to do 2d6+12 crushing, slashing and piercing damage on a successful grapple attack. They can also use their armour to make standard or secondary melee attacks.

*Thagomizer* *(Ex):* A _Stegosaurus's_ tail-spikes attack is treated as a 2-handed weapon, so it gains 1½ times the creatures Strength bonus and the Power Attack feat adds +2 damage per –1 attack penalty. The thagomizer inflicts piercing damage, has a reach equal to a tall creature of the _Stegosaurus's_ size, and does ×3 damage on a confirmed critical.

*Gargantuan* *Stegosaurus*
Gargantuan Animal
*Hit* *Dice:* 21d8+168 (262 hp)
*Initiative:* +3
*Speed:* 20 ft. (4 squares)
*Armor* *Class:* 20 (–4 size, –1 Dex, +15 natural), touch 5, flat-footed 20
*Base* *Attack/Grapple:* +15/+39
*Attack:* Tail-spikes +24 melee (4d8+18/19-20×3) or offensive armour +23 melee (3d6+12)
*Full* *Attack:* Tail-spikes +24 melee (4d8+18/19-20×3) and offensive armour +18 melee (3d6+6)
*Space/Reach:* 20 ft./15 ft. (20 ft. with tail-spikes)
*Special* *Attacks:* Offensive armour 3d6+18, thagomizer
*Special* *Qualities:* Damage reduction 10/–, fortification, low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +20, Ref +15, Will +10
*Abilities:* Str 34, Dex 9, Con 27, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 6
*Skills:* Listen +15, Spot +15
*Feats:* Alertness, Endurance, Improved Critical (tail-spikes), Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (tail-spikes)
*Epic* *Feat:* Epic Reflexes
*Environment:* Temperate or warm plains and forests
*Organization:* Solitary, pair or herd (3-6)
*Challenge* *Rating:* 10
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 22–39 HD (Gargantuan)
*Level* *Adjustment:* —

A _Stegosaurus_ of truly extraordinarily size, 40 feet in length and weighing 25000 pounds or more.

It's possible these dinosaurs never reached such spectacular dimensions in real life.

*Other* *Stegosaurs*
The genus _Stegosaurus_ includes the largest known species of Stegosaur although _Dacentrurus armatus_ may rival it in size. Some of the other Stegosaurs are a bit smaller than _Stegosaurus_ but still Huge-sized, for example _Tuojiangosaurus multispinus_. The smaller species are Large-sized, such as _Chungkingosaurus_ (10-12 feet long) or _Kentrosaurus aethiopicus_ (12-15 feet long).

Most Stegosaurs do not have dorsal plates as large and broad as _Stegosaurus_. Many genera, like_ Tuojiangosaurus_, have pointier dorsal plates that become more spike-shaped as they get closer to their tail, the change in shape is quite dramatic in such Stegosaurs as _Dacentrurus_ or _Kentrosaurus_ , whose dorsal armour abruptly switches from plates to spikes above the animal's hips. Some Stegosaurs, such as_ Chungkingosaurus_ or the aforementioned _Kentrosaurus_ have an additional large spike upon each shoulderor, in the case of _Huayangosaurus_, above each hip. It is possible other Stegosaurs had these additional shoulder- or hip-spikes, and they haven't been found in the fossil record, or have just not been identified yet.

The 'spikier' Stegosaurs' more bellicose dorsal plates may be enough to give them slightly higher damage, a +2 or +4 racial bonus on grapple checks when attacking with their Offensive Armour, or the Spiny Defence quality (see _Chungkingosaurus_ for details).

*Tuojiangosaurus*
*Late* *Jurassic* *(160-155* *MYA)
*Huge Animal
*Hit* *Dice:* 11d8+66 (115 hp)
*Initiative:* +3
*Speed:* 20 ft. (4 squares)
*Armor* *Class:* 18 (–2 size, –1 Dex, +11 natural), touch 7, flat-footed 18
*Base* *Attack/Grapple:* +8/+23
*Attack:* Tail-spikes +14 melee (3d8+10/×3) or offensive armour +13 melee (2d6+7)
*Full* *Attack:* Tail-spikes +14 melee (3d8+10/×3) and offensive armour +8 melee (2d6+3)
*Space/Reach:* 15 ft./10 ft. (15 ft. with tail-spikes)
*Special* *Attacks:* Offensive armour 2d6+10, thagomizer
*Special* *Qualities:* Damage reduction 5/–, fortification, low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +13, Ref +6, Will +4
*Abilities:* Str 24, Dex 9, Con 23, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 6
*Skills:* Listen +10, Spot +10
*Feats:* Alertness, Endurance, Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus (tail-spikes)
*Environment:* Temperate or warm plains and forests
*Organization:* Solitary, pair or herd (3-6)
*Challenge* *Rating:* 6
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 12–20 HD (Huge); 21–33 HD (Gargantuan)
*Level* *Adjustment:* —

Typical of a medium to big sized Stegosaur. Huge in size, but not as enormous as _Stegosaurus_ proper.

An average _Tuojiangosaurus_ is around 20 to 25 feet long and weighs between 4000 and 5000 pounds.

*Chungkingosaurus*
*Late* *Jurassic* *(160-145* *MYA)
*Large Animal
*Hit* *Dice:* 6d8+24 (51 hp)
*Initiative:* +4
*Speed:* 20 ft. (4 squares)
*Armor* *Class:* 17 (–1 size, +8 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 17
*Base* *Attack/Grapple:* +4/+12 [_+16 with Offensive Armour_]
*Attack:* Tail-spikes +8 melee (2d8+6/×3) or offensive armour +7 melee (1d10+4)
*Full* *Attack:* Tail-spikes +8 melee (2d8+6/×3) and offensive armour +2 melee (1d10+2)
*Space/Reach:* 10 ft./5 ft. (10 ft. with tail-spikes)
*Special* *Attacks:* Offensive armour 1d10+6, thagomizer
*Special* *Qualities:* Damage reduction 3/–, fortification, low-light vision, scent, spiny defence 1d10+4
*Saves:* Fort +9, Ref +5, Will +3
*Abilities:* Str 18, Dex 11, Con 19, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 6
*Skills:* Listen +8, Spot +7
*Feats:* Alertness, Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus (tail-spikes)
*Environment:* Temperate or warm plains and forests
*Organization:* Solitary, pair or herd (3-6)
*Challenge* *Rating:* 3
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 7–10 HD (Large); 11–18 HD (Huge)
*Level* *Adjustment:* —

One of the smallest of Stegosaurs, these dinosaurs have an abundance of armour spines which give them a +4 racial bonus on the Offensive Armour grapple checks and increases the armour's damage to 1d10.

An adult _Chungkingosaurus_ is typically between 10 and 13 feet long and weighs over 500 pounds.

*Combat* 

*Damage* *Reduction* *(Ex):* A _Chungkingosaurus_ has a Damage Reduction equal to half its Hit Dice.

*Fortification* *(Ex):* Whenever a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on a _Chungkingosaurus_ there is a 50% chance that the special attack is negated and its damage is rolled normally.
*
Offensive* *Armour* *(Ex):* A _Chungkingosaurus_ can use its spikes, plates and body-slams to do 1d10+6 crushing, slashing and piercing damage on a successful grapple attack with a +4 racial bonus on this check. They can also use their armour to make standard or secondary melee attacks.

*Thagomizer* *(Ex):* A _Chungkingosaurus's_ tail-spikes attack is treated as a 2-handed weapon, so it gains 1½ times the creatures Strength bonus and the Power Attack feat adds +2 damage per –1 attack penalty. The thagomizer inflicts piercing damage, has a reach equal to a tall creature of the _Chungkingosaurus's_ size, and does ×3 damage on a confirmed critical.

*Spiny* *Defence* *(Ex):* Any creature that hits a _Chungkingosaurus_ in melee using a handheld or natural weapon (but not a reach weapon) must succeed on a DC 13 Reflex save or take 1d10+4 points of damage from one of the creature’s spikes or dorsal spines. The save DC is Dexterity-based.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 3, 2009)

*Building a Better Ankylosaurus*

*Ankylosaurs and their Kin*
*Various* *types* *of* *Ankylosaur* *lived* *from* *the* *Late* *Jurassic* *to* *the* *Late* *Cretaceous* *(155-65* *MYA)
True* *Anklosauridae* *with* *tail-clubs* *probably* *didn't* *emerge* *until* *the* *Early* *Cretaceous* *(125* *MYA)

Ankylosaurus
Late* *Cretaceous* *(70-65* *MYA)
*Huge Animal
*Hit* *Dice:* 11d8+77 (126 hp)
*Initiative:* –2
*Speed:* 15 ft. (3 squares)
*Armor* *Class:* 18 (–2 size, –2 Dex, +12 natural), touch 6, flat-footed 18
*Base* *Attack/Grapple:* +7/+22
*Attack:* Tail-club +13 melee (3d8+10/19-20)
*Full* *Attack:* Tail-club +13 melee (3d8+10/19-20) and slam +7 melee (2d6+3)
*Space/Reach:* 15 ft./10 ft. (15 ft. with tail-club)
*Special* *Attacks:* Tail-club
*Special* *Qualities:* Damage reduction 12/–, low-light vision, scent, total fortification, weapon-breaking armour
*Saves:* Fort +14, Ref +5, Will +4
*Abilities:* Str 25, Dex 7, Con 24, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 4
*Skills:* Listen +10, Spot +10
*Feats:* Alertness, Awesome Blow *(B)*, Endurance, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (tail-club)
*Environment:* Temperate or warm plains and forests
*Organization:* Solitary, pair or herd (3-6)
*Challenge* *Rating:* 6
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 12–20 HD (Huge); 21–39 HD (Gargantuan)
*Level* *Adjustment:* —

An _Ankylosaurus_ has a broad, low-slung body covered in bony protrusions, four short and thick legs, a small blocky head with a tortoise-like beak and a powerful tail ending in a double-lobed bony club. Every part of its body is covered by armour, even its eyes have bony lids.

These dinosaurs are solitary herbivores, usually only congregating to breed. They are resilient animals able to live in harsh conditions, some species lived in saline wastelands and deserts.

The above stats are for a modest sized Ankylosaurus between 15 and 25 feet from beak to tail-club, such a creature could weigh between 4000 and 16000 pounds. The same stats can be used for other large genera of Ankylosauridae such as _Euoplocephalus,_ _Saichania_ or _Tarchia_.

*Combat*
_Ankylosaurus_ usually only attacks if closely approached by an apparent threat. It relies on its formidable armour and smashing tail-club in combat, hunkering down and lashing out until its opponents either give up or manage to break through its armour. They do not flee from attackers, because they're simply too slow to outrun any of the prehistoric predators they're likely to meet.

*Damage* *Reduction* *(Ex):* A standard _Ankylosaurus_ has a Damage Reduction equal to 7 plus half its Hit Dice. A Medium-sized _Ankylosaurus_ has a DR of 2 plus its Hit Dice, A Large-sized _Ankylosaurus_ has a DR of 5 plus half its Hit Dice, a Gargantuan one has a DR of 8 plus half its Hit Dice.

*Tail* *Club* *(Ex):* An _Ankylosaurus's_ tail-club attack is treated as a 2-handed weapon, so it gains 1½ times the creatures Strength bonus and the Power Attack feat adds +2 damage per –1 attack penalty. The tail-club inflicts crushing damage, has a reach equal to a tall creature of the _Ankylosaurus's_ size, and threatens a critical on a 19-20.

*Total* *Fortification* *(Ex):* _Ankylosaurus_ takes normal damage from critical hits or sneak attacks. Its bony armour shields every vital organ, negating such special attacks.
*
Weapon-Breaking* *Armour* *(Ex):* An _Ankylosaurus's_ armour is so thick, rough and hard that it can damage weapons that strike it. Any weapon that hits the dinosaur takes 1d10+7 points of damage unless the attacker succeeds at a DC 21 Reflex save. The damage the weapon takes can not exceed the damage it rolled against the _Ankylosaurus_. If a natural weapon hits the _Ankylosaurus_, the attacking creature takes the indicated damage. Weapons that are objects, such as most handheld and missile weapons, take half damage as per the standard rules. The save DC is Constitution-based.

*Big* *Ankylosaurus*
Huge Animal
*Hit* *Dice:* 16d8+126 (200 hp)
*Initiative:* –2
*Speed:* 15 ft. (3 squares)
*Armor* *Class:* 20 (–2 size, –2 Dex, +14 natural), touch 6, flat-footed 20
*Base* *Attack/Grapple:* +12/+29
*Attack:* Tail-club +20 melee (3d8+13/17-20) or slam +19 melee (2d6+9)
*Full* *Attack:* Tail-club +20 melee (3d8+13/17-20) and slam +14 melee (2d6+4)
*Space/Reach:* 15 ft./10 ft. (15 ft. with tail-club)
*Special* *Attacks:* Tail-club
*Special* *Qualities:* Damage reduction 15/–, low-light vision, scent, total fortification, weapon-breaking armour [_DC25, 1d10+9_]
*Saves:* Fort +18, Ref +8, Will +6
*Abilities:* Str 29, Dex 7, Con 26, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 4
*Skills:* Listen +10, Spot +10
*Feats:* Ability Focus (weapon-breaking armour), Alertness, Awesome Blow *(B)*, Endurance, Improved Critical (tail-club), Power Attack, Weapon Focus (tail-club)
*Environment:* Temperate or warm plains and forests
*Organization:* Solitary, pair or herd (3-6)
*Challenge* *Rating:* 8
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 17–20 HD (Huge); 21–39 HD (Gargantuan)
*Level* *Adjustment:* —

The above represents an _Ankylosaurus_ _magniventris_ or similar species of Ankylosaur at the upper limit of its size.

25-30 feet long, 16000-32000 pounds.

*Gargantuan* *Ankylosaurus*
Gargantuan Animal
*Hit* *Dice:* 21d8+189 (283 hp)
*Initiative:* –2
*Speed:* 15 ft. (3 squares)
*Armor* *Class:* 21 (–4 size, –2 Dex, +17 natural), touch 4, flat-footed 21
*Base* *Attack/Grapple:* +15/+38
*Attack:* Tail-club +23 melee (5d8+16/17-20) or slam +22 melee (3d6+11)
*Full* *Attack:* Tail-club +23 melee (5d8+16/17-20) and slam +17 melee (3d6+5)
*Space/Reach:* 20 ft./15 ft. (20 ft. with tail-club)
*Special* *Attacks:* Tail-club
*Special* *Qualities:* Damage reduction 18/–, low-light vision, scent, total fortification, weapon-breaking armour [_DC28, 2d8+11_]
*Saves:* Fort +21, Ref +9, Will +8
*Abilities:* Str 33, Dex 5, Con 28, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 4
*Skills:* Listen +15, Spot +15
*Feats:* Ability Focus (weapon-breaking armour), Alertness, Awesome Blow *(B)*, Endurance, Improved Critical (tail-club), Improved Natural Attack (tail-club), Power Attack, Weapon Focus (tail-club)
*Epic* *Feat:* Armour Skin
*Environment:* Temperate or warm plains and forests
*Organization:* Solitary, pair or herd (3-6)
*Challenge* *Rating:* 10
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 22–39 HD (Gargantuan)
*Level* *Adjustment:* —

An implausibly large Ankylosaur, over 30 feet long and weighing 16 tons or more.

*Other* *Ankylosaurs*
Many Ankylosaurs are fairly large, about 20 feet or so, and use the "standard _Ankylosaurus_" stats given above. There are smaller varieties, such as the following:

*Tianzhenosaurus* *(Lesser* *Ankylosaur)*
*Late **Cretaceous* *(85-70* *MYA)
*Large Animal
*Hit* *Dice:* 6d8+30 (57 hp)
*Initiative:* –2
*Speed:* 15 ft. (3 squares)
*Armor* *Class:* 17 (–1 size, –2 Dex, +10 natural), touch 7, flat-footed 17
*Base* *Attack/Grapple:* +4/+13
*Attack:* Tail-club +9 melee (2d8+7/19-20)
*Full* *Attack:* Tail-club +9 melee (2d8+7/19-20) and slam +3 melee (1d8+3)
*Space/Reach:* 10 ft./5 ft. (10 ft. with tail-club)
*Special* *Attacks:* Tail-club
*Special* *Qualities:* Damage reduction 8/–, low-light vision, scent, total fortification, weapon-breaking armour  [_DC18, 1d8+5_]
*Saves:* Fort +10, Ref +3, Will +3
*Abilities:* Str 21, Dex 7, Con 20, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 4
*Skills:* Listen +8, Spot +7
*Feats:* Alertness, Awesome Blow *(B)*, Endurance, Weapon Focus (tail-club)
*Environment:* Temperate or warm plains and forests
*Organization:* Solitary, pair or herd (3-6)
*Challenge* *Rating:* 4
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 7–10 HD (Large); 11–15 HD (Huge)
*Level* *Adjustment:* —

A typical example of a smaller variety of Ankylosaur, these stats can also be used for such modest sized armoured dinosaurs including immature or undersized examples or larger species. (Indeed, it has been proposed that _Tianzhenosaurus youngi  _itself are just small specimens of the 20+ foot long _Saichania chulsanensis_)

_Tianzhenosaurus_ are between 10 and 15 feet long and weigh around 2000 pounds.
*
Minmi* *(Pygmy* *Ankylosaur)
Early* *Cretaceous* *(120-115* *MYA)
*Medium Animal
*Hit* *Dice:* 3d8+12 (25 hp)
*Initiative:* –1
*Speed:* 15 ft. (3 squares)
*Armor* *Class:* 17 (–1 Dex, +8 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 17
*Base* *Attack/Grapple:* +2/+5
*Attack:* Tail-club +5 melee (1d10+4/19-20)
*Full* *Attack:* Tail-club +5 melee (1d10+4/19-20) and slam +0 melee (1d6+1)
*Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft.
*Special* *Attacks:* Tail-club
*Special* *Qualities:* Damage reduction 5/–, low-light vision, scent, total fortification, weapon-breaking armour [_DC15, 1d6+3_]
*Saves:* Fort +7, Ref +2, Will +2
*Abilities:* Str 17, Dex 9, Con 18, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 4
*Skills:* Listen +6, Spot +6
*Feats:* Alertness, Endurance
*Environment:* Temperate or warm plains and forests
*Organization:* Solitary, pair or herd (3-6)
*Challenge* *Rating:* 2
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 4–5 HD (Medium); 6–9 HD (Large)
*Level* *Adjustment:* —

_Minmi_ is a comparatively miniscule armoured dinosaur that may be an ancestor of both true Ankylosaurs and Nodosaurs. It probably did not have a full tail-club, but is statted here as if it did. These stats can be used to represent _Minmi_ _paravertebra_ itself, as well as youngsters of larger species and pygmy Ankylosaurs.

_Minmi_ is only 6-7 feet long but weighs 300-400 pounds.

*Nodosaurs*
Nodosaurs are close relatives of Ankylosaurs. The main difference as far as their D&D stats are concerned is they do not have a club on the end of their tail, although that member is still reinforced for striking opponents.

Use the stats for Ankylosaurs, except their tail-club SA is replaced by a tail-rod SA that lacks the improved critical threat range, although it still has the 2-handed Strength bonus.

*Polacanthids*
These are primitive forms of armoured dinosaur, their armour is not as well developed as an Ankylosaur or Nodosaur, and they lack a tail-club. They are do not grow as large as their younger kin: _Polecanthus_ itself is 13-16 feet long, and even the largest genera such as _Hylaeosaurus_ may not have exceeded 20 feet in total length.
*
Gargoyleosaurus
Late* *Jurassic **(155-145* *MYA)
*Large Animal
*Hit* *Dice:* 6d8+30 (57 hp)
*Initiative:* –1
*Speed:* 20 ft. (4 squares)
*Armor* *Class:* 16 (–1 size, –1 Dex, +8 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 16
*Base* *Attack/Grapple:* +4/+13
*Attack:* Tail-slap +9 melee (2d6+7)
*Full* *Attack:* Tail-slap +9 melee (2d6+7) and slam +3 melee (1d8+3)
*Space/Reach:* 10 ft./5 ft. (10 ft. with tail-slap)
*Special* *Attacks:* —
*Special* *Qualities:* Damage reduction 4/–, low-light vision, scent, heavy fortification, weapon-breaking armour
*Saves:* Fort +10, Ref +4, Will +3
*Abilities:* Str 21, Dex 9, Con 20, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 4
*Skills:* Listen +8, Spot +7
*Feats:* Alertness, Awesome Blow *(B)*, Endurance, Weapon Focus (tail-slap)
*Environment:* Temperate or warm plains and forests
*Organization:* Solitary, pair or herd (3-6)
*Challenge* *Rating:* 3
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 7–10 HD (Large); 11–15 HD (Huge)
*Level* *Adjustment:* —

_Gargoyleosaurus parkpinorum_ is one of the smaller species of Polecanthids. A typical adult is between 10 and 13 feet long from beak to tail-tip and could weigh between 1000 and 2000 pounds.

*Combat*
_Gargoyleosaurus _usually only attacks if closely approached by an apparent threat. It relies on its formidable armour and powerful tail-slaps in combat, hunkering down and lashing out until its opponents either give up or manage to break through its armour. They do not flee from attackers, because they're simply too slow to outrun any of the prehistoric predators they're likely to meet.

*Damage* *Reduction* *(Ex):* A standard _Gargoyleosaurus _has a Damage Reduction equal to 2 plus 1 for every third Hit Dice. A Huge-sized _Gargoyleosaurus _has a DR of 3 plus a third its Hit Dice.

*Heavy* *Fortification* *(Ex):* A _Gargoyleosaurus's_ bony armour covers most of its vital organs. If it is struck by a critical hit or sneak attack it has a 75% chance of taking normal damage.
*
Weapon-Breaking* *Armour* *(Ex):* A _Gargoyleosaurus's_ armour is so thick, rough and hard that it can damage weapons that strike it. Any weapon that hits the dinosaur takes 1d6+5 points of damage unless the attacker succeeds at a DC 18 Reflex save. The damage the weapon takes can not exceed the damage it rolled against the _Gargoyleosaurus_. If a natural weapon hits the _Gargoyleosaurus_, the attacking creature takes the indicated damage. Weapons that are objects, such as most handheld and missile weapons, take half damage as per the standard rules. The save DC is Constitution-based.

*Gastonia
Early*  *Cretaceous* *(125* *MYA)
*Large Animal
*Hit* *Dice:* 6d8+30 (57 hp)
*Initiative:* –2
*Speed:* 15 ft. (3 squares)
*Armor* *Class:* 16 (–1 size, –2 Dex, +9 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 16
*Base* *Attack/Grapple:* +4/+13 [_+17 with offensive armour_]
*Attack:* Tail-shears +9 melee (2d6+7/19-20) or offensive armour +8 melee (1d10+5)
*Full* *Attack:* Tail-shears +9 melee (2d6+7/19-20) and offensive armour +3 melee (1d10+3)
*Space/Reach:* 10 ft./5 ft. (10 feet with tail-shears)
*Special* *Attacks:* Offensive armour, tail-shears
*Special* *Qualities:* Damage reduction 8/–, low-light vision, scent, heavy fortification, weapon-breaking armour
*Saves:* Fort +10, Ref +3, Will +3
*Abilities:* Str 21, Dex 7, Con 20, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 4
*Skills:* Listen +8, Spot +7
*Feats:* Alertness, Awesome Blow *(B)*, Endurance, Weapon Focus (tail-shears)
*Environment:* Temperate or warm plains and forests
*Organization:* Solitary, pair or herd (3-6)
*Challenge* *Rating:* 4
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 7–10 HD (Large); 11–15 HD (Huge)
*Level* *Adjustment:* —

_A low-slung and enormously broad animal covered in thick bony armour, with a small box-shaped skull and a thick tail. It is covered with sharp looking horn-plated spikes - two rows of spines on its back shaped like giant rose thorns, and a row of thick triangular blades running down each flank from its shoulder to the end of its powerful tail._

_Gastonia_ is a small to medium Polecanthid dinosaur with exceptionally well developed armour and weaponry. Some of the triangular plates that edge its tail are positioned to slide over each other when the tail bends, acting like a row of foot-long scissor blades made of sharpened bone. The head, throat and the back of its body and tail are plated with thick armour, including a massive shield of bone over the hips. Its legs and underside are comparatively lightly armoured.

A typical adult _Gastonia_ is about 13 feet long from beak to tail-tip and weighs roughly 2000 pounds.

*Combat*
_Gastonia _usually only attacks if closely approached by an apparent threat. It relies on its formidable armour and powerful tail-slaps in combat, hunkering down and lashing out until its opponents either give up or manage to break through its armour. They do not flee from attackers, because they're simply too slow to outrun any of the prehistoric predators they're likely to meet.

*Damage* *Reduction* *(Ex):* A Large _Gastonia _has a Damage Reduction equal to 5 plus half its Hit Dice. A Huge _Gastonia _has a DR of 7 plus half its Hit Dice.

*Heavy* *Fortification* *(Ex):* A _Gastonia's_ bony armour covers most of its vital organs. If it is struck by a critical hit or sneak attack it has a 75% chance of taking normal damage.

*Offensive* *Armour* *(Ex):* A _Gastonia _can use its spikes, plates and body-slams to do 1d10+5 crushing, slashing and piercing damage on a successful grapple attack with a +4 racial bonus on this check. They can also use their armour to make standard or secondary melee attacks.

*Tail-Shears (Ex):* A _Gastonia's_ tail-shears attack is treated as a 2-handed weapon, so it gains 1½ times the creatures Strength bonus and the Power Attack feat adds +2 damage per –1 attack penalty. The tail-shears inflicts crushing and slashing damage, has a reach equal to a tall creature of the _Gastonia's_ size, and threatens a critical on a 19-20.
*
Weapon-Breaking* *Armour* *(Ex):* A _Gastonia's_ armour is so thick, rough and hard that it can damage weapons that strike it. Any weapon that hits the dinosaur takes 1d6+5 points of damage unless the attacker succeeds at a DC 18 Reflex save. The damage the weapon takes can not exceed the damage it rolled against the _Gastonia_. If a natural weapon hits the _Gastonia_, the attacking creature takes the indicated damage. Weapons that are objects, such as most handheld and missile weapons, take half damage as per the standard rules. The save DC is Constitution-based.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 3, 2009)

The above Ankylosaurus entry is not quite finished. I've just watched the part of _Jurassic Fight Club_ with its rather sensationalised interpretion of _*Gastonia*_ (the "chainsaw-tailed porcupine built like a Sherman tank" one), so I plan on doing stats for it.

Shouldn't take me long.


----------



## hamishspence (Nov 3, 2009)

*Pathfinder statblocks*

While I am a little wary, there are some things I think they definitely got right.

First- that creatures with a sufficiently long appendage (tail, in the case of the Tarrasque, neck, in the case of _Elasmosaurus)_ can break the normal reach rules.

_Elasmosaurus_ has a 15 ft space, and a 20 ft Reach

the Tarrasque, has a 30 ft space, and a 60 ft tail slap reach.

Second- that large sauropods, such as Brachiosaurus, are Gargantuan, rather than Colossal.

Combining the two- we could get: 

a Diplodocus- which is Gargantuan, 20 ft Space, 40 ft Tail Slap reach.

Does this sound like an improvement on the Dragon Magazine 318 Diplodocus- which is Colossal, 30 ft Space, 20 ft Reach with tail slap, and has a 40 ft half-circle Tail Sweep special attack?

Also- the ankylosaur and stegosaur stats look good.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 3, 2009)

hamishspence said:


> While I am a little wary, there are some things I think they definitely got right.
> 
> First- that creatures with a sufficiently long appendage (tail, in the case of the Tarrasque, neck, in the case of _Elasmosaurus)_ can break the normal reach rules.
> 
> ...




I agree. There's plenty of precedent for extra-reach natural attacks, so I felt no qualms about using it in my own version of *Elasmosaurus *and the *Sauropods*.

Speaking of Sauropoda, I really need to add separate stats for the bipedal Prosauropoda, the 'lesser Sauropods' don't represent them very well, the stats were really meant for juvenile sauropods and their quadrupedal ancestors.


----------



## hamishspence (Nov 4, 2009)

*sizes*

Aside from preferring Gargantuan to Huge for Diplodocus itself, I like the stats- and a slightly smaller diplodocid can probably fill the Huge slot.

Depending on how accurate Ken Carpenter's reconstruction of _Amphicoelias fragillimus_ is, it could have a Space and reach of anywhere between 30 ft space 60 ft reach, to 50 ft Space, 100 ft reach.

It probably works as the biggest diplodocid, with Supersaurus maybe being the next biggest.

The high figures are (still somewhat speculative) 55 ft neck, 30 ft body, 105 ft tail.

Set slightly toward the back of a 50 ft base (forelegs 15 ft from the front edge, rear legs 5 ft from the rear edge) the result is a neck extending roughly 40 ft forward, and a tail extending 100 ft rearward.

which works out quite well with 50 ft Space, 100 ft Tail Slap Reach.

This is, however, the maximum estimated size- based solely on drawings of one vertabra.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 4, 2009)

Upon reflection, I realized I've rather mucked up the 'Short-Faced' Carnosaurs entry. I've been reading about _Majungasaurus_ recently and that warped my conception of Abelisaurs. If I'd actually thought a moment I'd remember that most of the large Abelisaurs (e.g. _Abelisaurus, Aucasaurus, Carnotaurus, Rugops et al_) have pretty long, slim legs to go with a big but fairly lightweight heads and wee little arms.

I'd better split them into a gracile version called the 'Short Faced Carnosaur' and a heavyweight version for _Majungasaurus_ and its ilk (Maybe _Rajasaurus_?) we can call something like "Pit Bull Carnosaurs".

We could probably get away with just modifying the Classic Carnosaur or the Gracile Tyrant, but I'd rather give them their own stat-category. They won't have the claw attacks of regular Allosauroid carnosaurs, and their jaws may be more suited for grappling large prey as compared to Allosaurs slashing teeth. They don't have a Tyrannosaurs' crushing bite strength or larger brains, suggesting lower Int and Wis in D&D terms.

Here's my new, improved theropod stat category list:

*Standard Carnosaur*s (e.g. _Allosaurus_) - largish, fairly fast, slashing bite, medium-sized claws. Includes other Allosauridae up to the size of _Giganotosaurus_. We could probably lump Ceratosaurs in here as far as their stats go.
*Gracile Carnosaur*s (e.g. _Dilophosaurus_) - slim, fast, smallish head, medium-small claws.
*Clawed Carnosaurs *(e.g. _Megaraptor_) - Carnivorous theropods with unusually large arms & claws and smallish heads with slashing teeth. Swift and gracile, may have chased down agile prey.
*Crocodile Carnosaurs *(e.g. _Spinosaurus_) Largish arms and claws. Slim jaws with pointed teeth for wriggling prey. may be piscovores. _Baryonyx_ may be a robust version.
*Short-Faced Carnosaurs *(e.g. _Abelisaurus_) - long legs and tiny arms, short but deep skull. *[Modified Gracile Tyrant?]*
*Pit-Bull Carnosaurs* (e.g. _Majungasaurus_) - Powerful but slow, with short sturdy legs. Deep skull and stubby teeth may have allowed pit-bull like wrestling with larger prey animals.  *[Modified Tyrant King?]*
*Tyrant Kings* (e.g. _Tyrannosaurus_) - large & strong, bigger brains, powerful crushing & tearing bite, tiny claws.
*Gracile Tyrants *(e.g. _Albertosaurus_) - faster than the above, with less powerful jaws.
*'Raptors'* (e.g. _Deinonychus_) - fast & agile, well armed with claws, talons & teeth. *[Maybe call them Terror Claws?]*
*Gracile Raptors* (e.g. _Troodon_) - slimmer and faster than above, but not as strong.
*Short-Armed Raptors* (e.g. _Austroraptor_). Unusually small arms and slim jaws. Maybe particularly fast pursuers of small prey?
*Flapping Raptors* (e.g. _Unenlagia_, _Microraptor_). Very small, with wings or winglike forearms. Some may have had limited flight, maybe good climbers that lived on trees or cliffs.
*Beaked Raptors* (e.g. _Oviraptor_) - small, fast, medium claws, beaked. Maybe omnivores. *[I decided to drop 'Oviraptor' since calling them 'egg thieves' would give the wrong impression of their habits]
**Scythe Claws* (e.g. _Therizinosaurus_) - bizarre barrel-bodied theropods with huge claws. Probably herbivores.
*Ostrich Mimics* (e.g. _Ornithomimus_) - fast, with long 3-clawed arms but a negligible peck. Maybe omnivores.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 4, 2009)

hamishspence said:


> Aside from preferring Gargantuan to Huge for Diplodocus itself, I like the stats- and a slightly smaller diplodocid can probably fill the Huge slot.




I decided to start all the "Greater Sauropods" at Huge just for consistency, to allow for the relatively small species and immature versions of the adults.

In the case of _Diplodocus_, it was a remarkably long and lightly built animal, and many of its recent weight estimates put it around 10-16 tons, so I felt safe making it Huge. I was a lot more queasy about not statting the base _Apatosaurus_ as Huge - adults of that animal should pretty definitely be Gargantuan.



hamishspence said:


> Depending on how accurate Ken Carpenter's reconstruction of _Amphicoelias fragillimus_ is, it could have a Space and reach of anywhere between 30 ft space 60 ft reach, to 50 ft Space, 100 ft reach.
> 
> It probably works as the biggest diplodocid, with Supersaurus maybe being the next biggest.
> 
> ...




I think Supersized Diplodocids are adequately covered by my proposed stats without having to invent a new size bigger than Colossal, especially as it has practically no  evidence for how big it actually was. They give a Colossal Diplodocid with a 30 foot space, a 30 foot neck and a 90 foot tail. I think 150 feet total length is quite enough!

I did consider giving Diplodocids 50% or 100% extra neck reach as well as a 50% longer tail, which would add 15-30 feet to its length (165-180 feet).

Upon reflection, I should really have done so. What do you think of doubling the Diplodocids's bite reach?


----------



## hamishspence (Nov 4, 2009)

*3.5 and Colosaal*

3.5 statblocks do (sometimes) allow for Colossal creatures with a Space larger than 30 ft.

the 3.5 revision to Epic Handbook, gives the devastation vermin, and the biggest Abomination, a 50 ft space.

Elder Evils gives the advanced Aspect of the Leviathan a 60 ft Space.

But otherwise, they follow the normal Colossal rules.

Remember that the body of the creature, if placed on a Gargantuan or Colossal base, will only take up a fairly small portion- so it's neck reach will be less than its total neck length. _Supersaurus_ and _Barosaurus_ might have slightly extended neck reach.

also- the larger specimens of _Diplodocus_ (_Diplodocus hallorum_, AKA _Seismosaurus),_ may have weighed a bit more than 16 tons.

The original WoTC thread gives Apatosaurus a Gargantuan size- which is reasonable, given that adults were between 70 and 80 ft long.

One of the things that might cause all the size disputes- is that base size advances slower than height does- 
6 ft creature on a 5 ft base is a middle of the height-range Medium biped.
48 ft creature on a 20 ft base is a middle of the height-range Gargantuan biped.

result- it looks cramped.


----------



## hamishspence (Nov 4, 2009)

*sauropod size*

While base size does not scale well, I figure a 15 ft sauropod body (discounting neck and tail) sitting on a 20 ft base, looks passable. 

_Diplodocus_ and _Apatosaurus_ have very similar body sizes- one is just chunkier than the other.

Hence, my idea of _Diplodocus_ being the smallest (in hit dice) of the Gargantuan diplodocids.

Put it on a 15 ft base though- and place it next to other Huge creatures- and it will dwarf them.

For skeletal drawings- with a 1 metre scale bar- which can be used to work out how big the "model's base" should be (6m = roughly 20 ft- Gargantuan base size) see here:

http://www.skeletaldrawing.com/sauropods/sauropods.htm

The artist, who was one of the paleontologists who reconstructed Supersaurus, has a reputation as one of the better dinosaur artists out there.

Weight is important- but some creatures are, being lightly built, a little larger than their weight would suggest.

Young _Diplodocus_ could be easily Huge though.

One of the things that especially mystifies me are the numerous articles (dated around June 2009) that say that thanks to sizing errors- many of the dinosaur weights need to be revised.

http://dinosaurs.suite101.com/article.cfm/dinosaurs_smaller_than_thought

All well and good- but they list Diplodocus as being revised downward from 5500 kg to 4000 kg.

Since when did anyone think it was 5500 kg?

Even the most conservative estimates I have seen, put a minimum of 10 tons- and mostly, the estimates are larger.

People specializing in pneumacity- who stress that most sauropods are much lighter than originally thought- _still_ give estimates of around 12 tons.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 4, 2009)

hamishspence said:


> 3.5 statblocks do (sometimes) allow for Colossal creatures with a Space larger than 30 ft.
> 
> the 3.5 revision to Epic Handbook, gives the devastation vermin, and the biggest Abomination, a 50 ft space.




Oh blast, I'd forgotten about the Devastation Vermin, and they're SRD so there's nothing to stop us using them as a precedent.



hamishspence said:


> also- the larger specimens of _Diplodocus_ (_Diplodocus hallorum_, AKA _Seismosaurus),_ may have weighed a bit more than 16 tons.




True enough, but I was statting up a Diplodocid of nondescript size (e.g. a 80-90 foot long, 10-15 ton _Diplodocus carnegiei_), not a particularly large one which would be Gargantuan or maybe even Colossal.

By the way, I've decided to increase the bite reach of my 3E Diplodocid stats. Its definitely longer-necked than a standard sauropod.

Which reminds me, I've forgotten to include *really* long necked sauropods like _Mamenchisaurus_.



hamishspence said:


> All well and good- but they list Diplodocus as being revised downward from 5500 kg to 4000 kg.
> 
> Since when did anyone think it was 5500 kg?




That does seem way too low. They do appear to be getting carried away with the air-sacs. I know some of the Diplodocids had extensive weight-saving adaptations, but if they're talking about a 70+ foot long individual that doesn't sound right.

There's a similar situation with recent weight estimates for large Pterosaurs, some of the weight estimates for a large Pterosaur like _Quetzalcoatlus_ are so low you wonder how the poor beast would be able to land or walk without collapsing like a deck of cards. I've been using the higher weight estimatesuggested in Witton & Naish's paper _*A Reappraisal of Azhdarchid** Morphology and Paleoecology*_. They seem credible, and a more robust interpretation is better suited for a "D&D version" of a big Pterosaur.

Anyhow, I'd better go and add the revisions to my Sauropod post. I haven't started on the bipedal Prosauropoda yet.


----------



## hamishspence (Nov 4, 2009)

*Dinosaurs*

Diplodocus and Apatosaurus are quite short necked (20-22 ft) compared to some of the others- a 20 ft reach (if on a 20 ft base) is plenty- for them. _Barosaurus_, etc can have longer reach.

(the highest figure I've seen for _Mammenchisaurus_ is for a recent exhibit- with a length of 115 ft and a neck length of about 50 ft- longer, by a narrow margin, even than _Supersaurus_. )

(one source of the 115 ft length):

http://dinogoss.blogspot.com/2009/07/my-sauropod-is-bigger.html

I wondered if the 5.5 tonne estimate was due to the newspaper getting it wrong- since Naish, Wedel, etc, who were the ones stressing the air sacs of sauropods- were also the ones giving the 10-12 ton estimate.

I was thinking of the 80-90 ft diplodocid as big enough to justify a 20 ft base.

Placed on one of those- its feet- roughly 15 ft or so apart from front of forefooot to front of hind foot- and its back height- around 15 ft high- is fairly comparable to one of the Gargantuan dragon models.

If Gargantuan was to begin with _Diplodocus carnegii_ - move through _Barosaurus_, _Apatosaurus_, _Diplodous hallorum_, _Mamenchisaurus, Supersaurus,_ etc, then that should cover a pretty fair range- 

from the 70 ft _Apatosaurus, _to the 112 ft _Supersaurus_ and 115 ft _Mamenchisaurus._

And with the 160-190 ft _Amphicoelias fragillimus_, filling the Colossal slot.

(If it existed, that is )

Plus- there are sauropods in the 50 ft long, 8-10 ton weight range (ideal for Huge) and a few, so small, they might, even as adults, be Large.

on _Herrerasaurus- _it's place is still being debated- its not clear if it's a theropod, or if it evolved prior to the split- but the most recent opinions tend toward it being not a theropod.


----------



## hamishspence (Nov 4, 2009)

*how many kinds of sauropod?*

We have Generic Sauropod (probably the camerasaurs, largest prosauropods, non-armoured titanosaurs, and the chunkier diplodocids such as _Apatosaurus. _These can run from Large at adult stage, to high-end Gargantuan (and, if _Bruhathkyosaurus_ exists, colossal as well)

We have Tall brachiosaur-type Sauropods- which range from the only Large _Europasaurus_, to the Huge _Euhelopus _(actually a titanosaur, but looks exactly like a mini-brachiosaurus) to the Gargantuan _Brachiosaurus altithorax_ and _Giraffatitan brancai_, to the borderline Colossal (at least by height) _Sauroposeidon_.

We have the whip-tailed sauropods- some with very long necks, like _Supersaurus,_ some with short necks and even long spines on them (_Dicraeosaurus_)

and we have the armoured sauropods- like _Saltasaurus_.

But are these the only ones? Should there be a "club-tailed sauropod" group- exemplified by _Shunosaurus?_

Or a "spine-necked" group- including the aforementioned _Dicraeosaurus_.

I think _Mamenchisaurus_ also has a very small relative- also with a neck nearly as long as the body and tail. These could be the "long-necked" group, separate from the whip-tails.

EDIT: I've checked- _Omeisaurus _is one example of a smaller longneck- up 50 ft long- 4 tons in weight- but with a neck up to 30 ft long. Big. 

_Erketu_- with its 24 ft neck, may also fit- despite not being closely related:

http://www.newcritters.com/2006/03/21/erketu-ellisoni-the-looooooong-necked-sauropod/

A possible listing of major groups- a bit like with the theropods:

Generic Sauropod (mostly titanosaur)
Tall-shouldered Sauropod (mostly brachiosaur)
Armoured Sauropod (titanosaur)
Spine-necked Sauropod (_Dicraeosaurus_ and a few others)
Long-necked Sauropod (_Mamenchisaurus _and a few others)
Whip-tailed Sauropod (mostly diplodocoid)
Club-tailed sauropod (_Shunosaurus_ and a few others)


----------



## Cleon (Nov 4, 2009)

Oh blast it, the Large Ankylosaurs attack bonuses are all wrong - I forgot to change them after copy-and-pasting the basic Huge _Ankylosaurus_. And I didn't put in the correct age for _Gargoyleosaurus_.

Better fix it.

EDIT: Okay, fixed those mistakes - and a bunch of other errors I hadn't noticed before.

More cheerfully, I've finished writing up _Gastonia_, so added it to the post.


----------



## hamishspence (Nov 4, 2009)

*Thyreophorans compared to sauropods*

It is sort of funny- that we've just been statting out spiked, armoured- and club-tailed thyreophorans- 

and it turns out- that there are spiked, armoured, and club-tailed sauropods.

EDIT: the ankylosaur and stegosaur stats look good. Lots of special abilities to represent how heavily protected they were.

Scelidosaurus could probably be represented by taking a Large one, and trimming back most of the powers- since its armour was less, and its spikes were very short.

When you mentioned prosauropods, it might work more simply to divide the group into: 

"Bipedal sauropodomorphs" which are mostly prosauropods, and at least one very early sauropod- _Anchisaurus_- which was bipedal-

and "Quadrupedal sauropodomorphs" which include the largest prosauropods- the ones which look very like smallish sauropods. Most of these would fit in "generic sauropod".

Bipedal ones (as adults) can probably run from Small (_Thecodontosaurus_) to Large (_Plateosaurus_) and the minimum size for a baby specimen is probably Diminuitive (_Mussaurus_- 6 inches to base of tail, 15 inches long overall)

It is possible _Thecodontosaurus_ had smaller babies- but we probably do not need Fine dinosaurs.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 4, 2009)

hamishspence said:


> Diplodocus and Apatosaurus are quite short necked (20-22 ft) compared to some of the others- a 20 ft reach (if on a 20 ft base) is plenty- for them. _Barosaurus_, etc can have longer reach.




My current D&D stats give a 30 ft neck reach and a 45 ft tail reach for an average 90 foot long (Huge) _Diplodocus_, and a 20 foot neck-reach and 40 foot tail-reach for an 80 foot long (Gargantuan) _Apatosaurus_.

Those seem in the right ballpark for me.



hamishspence said:


> (the highest figure I've seen for _Mammenchisaurus_ is for a recent exhibit- with a length of 115 ft and a neck length of about 50 ft- longer, by a narrow margin, even than _Supersaurus_. )




Yes, I've seen 14 metre (49 foot) quote in quite a few popular dino-sources. It sounds more scientific in SI units.



hamishspence said:


> And with the 160-190 ft _Amphicoelias fragillimus_, filling the Colossal slot.
> 
> (If it existed, that is )




I'd include stats for a Colossal Sauropod even if we knew for a fact they never reached that size. They're proverbially big creatures, and the AD&D universe seems to be far more forgiving about the biomechanics of oversized animals.



hamishspence said:


> on _Herrerasaurus- _it's place is still being debated- its not clear if it's a theropod, or if it evolved prior to the split- but the most recent opinions tend toward it being not a theropod.




I was inquiring more as to what stats we should give it than its taxonomical relationships, I know they're at that uncertain age when the Ornithischians split up.

Basically, would Herrerasaurs use a Medium or Large "Classic Carnosaur" or "Gracile Carnosaur" stats, or would they require a set of "Primitive Carnosaur" stats. They're pretty close in build to a "Gracile Carnosaur" (e.g. a _Dilophosaurus_) so I'd be tempted to just use those stats. I guess there's an argument for creating a "Primitive Carnosaur" with a slightly lower speed and/or a tad less effective bite or claw attacks, since its feet, claws and jaws are relatively unspecialized, although my current preference would be to create a "Primitive Carnosaur" stats by giving them a somewhat less effective feat selection (e.g. drop Weapon Focus (bite) for Toughness, cutting their racial bonuses and giving them Skill-boosting feats instead).


----------



## Cleon (Nov 4, 2009)

hamishspence said:


> Generic Sauropod (mostly titanosaur)
> Tall-shouldered Sauropod (mostly brachiosaur)
> Armoured Sauropod (titanosaur)
> Spine-necked Sauropod (_Dicraeosaurus_ and a few others)
> ...




As far as my stats are concerned whiptails are a standard feature of most of the sauropods.

I thought about including spine-backed sauropods, but most sauropod spines were fairly small and would probably not do much as far as the animal's D&D stat go, so I decided to consider them to be for display or species recognition of a standard generic Sauropod, or just part of the armour of an Armoured sauropod in the case of the most exaggeratedly spiny genera like _Augustina_.

A similar line of thought made me decide not to have separate stats for a club-tailed sauropod. Many sauropods had some sort of reinforced tail tip, usually a bony rod for "whip-tailed" sauropods. I suspected a _Shunosaurus's_ rather small tail club would be functionally the same, so would be covered by the current tail-slap damage.

Although while we are on the subject of sauropod tail-slaps, I was tempted to give most sauropods some kind of stunning blow attack with their tail.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 4, 2009)

hamishspence said:


> When you mentioned prosauropods, it might work more simply to divide the group into:
> 
> "Bipedal sauropodomorphs" which are mostly prosauropods, and at least one very early sauropod- Anchisaurus- which was bipedal-
> 
> and "Quadrupedal sauropodomorphs" which include the largest prosauropods- the ones which look very like smallish sauropods. Most of these would fit in "generic sauropod".




Erm, that's what I'm in the process of doing. I've already covered the quadrupedal generic prosauropods, but haven't started statting the bipedal ones.


----------



## hamishspence (Nov 4, 2009)

*herrarasaurus*

It is comparable in weight and length (around 350 kg and 20 ft long) to the larger gracile theropods such as _Gojirasaurus_- at up to 350 kg it is more lightly built than _Dilophosaurus _but more heavily built than the slim ceratosaur _Elaphrosaurus_.

Though- it could be a "less specialized" group of its own- maybe with _Eoraptor _representing Small size, and _Staurikosaurus _Medium size.

On sauropods:

the "tail three times as long as Space" formula is an interesting one- but if the dinosaur is going on a base a bit wider than the space defined by its four feet, it may be excessive.

_Apatosaurus_ doesn't really have a _larger_ body than Diplodocus, after all, just a thicker-boned one.

Maybe the two could be split up more by Hit Dice and Strength- rather than Size.

EDIT:
I've had a look at the skeletal drawings- given the relatively short neck (compared to Barosaurus or Supersaurus) and given the closeness in size of _Diplodocus carnegii_ to _Diplodocus hallorum_- (90 ft, compated to 98 ft) a possible option could be:

Neck length- same as space
Tail length- three times the space

_Diplodocus_- 20ft neck reach, 20 ft space, 60 ft tail reach- 100 ft long.

Smaller diplodocid- 15 ft neck reach, 15 ft space, 45 ft tail reach- 75 ft long.

_Barosaurus_, _Supersaurus_- etc could go in with the proportionally long-necked ones like _Mamenchisaurus_- and have a different set of proportions.

Something along the lines of: tail being equal to twice Space, neck being equal to Space.

This gives 120 ft for a sauropod with a 30 ft Space, and 80 ft for a sauropod with a 20 ft space.

an 80 ft _Barosaurus_ and a 120 ft _Supersaurus_ or _Mamenchisaurus _don't stretch credibility too much.

_Amphicoelias altus_- another diplodocid- the smaller and much more complete cousin of _Amphicoelias fragillimus_- falls at around 82 feet long.


----------



## hamishspence (Nov 5, 2009)

*Space/Reach advancing slower than dimensions*

Of course, if Wizards had not made the Space/Reach categories for a creature advance slower than the dimensions, we might not have these problems:

If Space/Reach had doubled every time, the way Height/Length does, after Large, it would have looked something like this:

Large: Space 10 ft, Reach 5-10 ft
Huge: Space 20 ft, Reach 10-20 ft
Gargantuan: Space 40 ft, Reach 20-40 ft
Colossal: Space 80 ft, Reach 40-80 ft

Which would have allowed most of the big theropods, right up to Spinosaurus, to fit into Huge size, as well as Diplodocus:

And most of the biggest sauropods, to fit into Gargantuan size- right up to Argentinosaurus.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 5, 2009)

hamishspence said:


> _*SNIP*
> 
> __Apatosaurus_ doesn't really have a _larger_ body than Diplodocus, after all, just a thicker-boned one.
> 
> ...




That's not what I'm seeing in the skeletons. For example, look at these skeletal reconstructions of _*Diplodocus carnegiei*_ and _*Apatosaurus excelsus*_ and compare the distance between the hip and shoulder or the space between the feet with the lengths of the neck and tail.

The _Diplodocus _has a neck about twice as long as the body, and a tail four times as long. The _Apatosaurus_ has a neck about 150% as long as the body and a tail about 250%.

The _Apatosaurus's_ body is definitely proportionally bigger. Since I want the "Standard Sauropod" to also represent species that were a bit stockier than _Apatosaurus_, such as _Camarasaurus_, I think the current Space/Reach will do.

Although I've changed my mind again about Diplodocids, and think I'll go back to my original plan of having them have bite and tail reach that are each 50% longer than standard, rather than giving them +100% necks and +50% tails. The ratio of neck-to-tail lengths is roughly the same in most of these sauropods.

EDIT: Just made the changes to my *Sauropod stats*. Better start on the bipedal prosauropods.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 5, 2009)

hamishspence said:


> Bipedal ones (as adults) can probably run from Small (_Thecodontosaurus_) to Large (_Plateosaurus_) and the minimum size for a baby specimen is probably Diminuitive (_Mussaurus_- 6 inches to base of tail, 15 inches long overall)
> 
> It is possible _Thecodontosaurus_ had smaller babies- but we probably do not need Fine dinosaurs.




I'm statting them from Small upwards, since the littler ones are more background fauna than potential combatant. I'm including Huge to represent a really really big specimen of _Plateosaurus_ or _Yunnanosaurus_, since the latter may have reached 30-40 feet and over 2 tons. Although in the case of _Yunnanosaurus youngi_ I'm not 100% sure it was not quadrupedal (although the sources I've seen seem to be pretty confident the smaller _Y. huangi_ was bipedal, a lot of them say _Y. youngi_ was a quadruped or "semi-quadrupedal".)


----------



## hamishspence (Nov 5, 2009)

*Yunnanosaurus*

I think it's still unclear whether it is a sauropod or a prosauropod (I've seen cases made for both)- still- it makes a good maximum for the bipedal sauropodomorphs.

I'm guessing that if it's not a round number, Reach (in either direction) rounds down- since 15 ft + 50% is 22.5 ft.

80 ft works out well for the original _Diplodocus longus_. 

A larger specimen- maybe _Diplodocus hallorum _or the largest specimens of _Diplodocus carnegii (_or, for that matter_, Supersaurus)_ - works well as 30 ft bite, 20 ft body, 60 ft tail.

And the middle-of-the-range size for _Amphicoelias fragillimus_ coincides well with 45 ft bite, 30 ft body, 90 ft tail. 

Long-necked sauropods vary a bit in tail-length- the longest-necked (proportionally) such as (_Omeisaurus_) might need a tail slap as short as its body, and a bite reach twice as long- say, 30 ft bite, 15 ft body, 15 ft tail. Not sure what the mean tail length should be.

The Standard Sauropod build should work out for most- 60 ft specimens like _Cetiosaurus_ as Huge (fits, given the weight the New Walk Museum gives for it's _Rutland Dinosaur_ is around 10 tons, rather than the 27 Wikipedia gives.

The larger _Apatosaurus_ species fit with an 80 ft Gargantuan standard sauropod.

And some of the longest and largest titanosaurs, may reach 120 ft- Colossal sauropod. _Argentinosaurus_ itself is believed to not be as big as the 120 ft mounted specimen would indicate (the mount was based on a lot of speculation, and revised estimates are more like 80-90 ft long), but there are other giant titanosaurs.

Maybe the different sauropod types should be named generically, "Huge Longtail Sauropod, Gargantuan Longtail sauropod" etc- and the species, could be described in the examples:

"This can be used to represent smaller diplodocids- such as _Diplodocus longus_" etc.

and for ones with odd proportions- this could be put in a mini-statblock- like "_Barosaurus_: As Gargantuan Longtail (30 ft bite reach, 20 ft space), but with a 40 ft tail slap"

(since Barosaurus is up to 90 ft long and rather heavier than _Diplodocus_)

Supersaurus is also tricky, size-wise- possibly increase the bite reach and decrease the tail slap range. 40 ft  bite, 20 ft Space, 50 ft tail slap seems to be in the right ballpark- given that its maximum length is listed as 112 ft.

Interestingly, when I looked up size-range variations for _Apatosaurus_ and _Diplodocus_, the maximum for adult _Apatosaurus_, and the minimum for adult _Diplodocus, _were both 82 ft.


----------



## hamishspence (Nov 5, 2009)

*Big, bulky, short-necked sauropods*

Some sauropods (_Barapasaurus_, possibly _Paralititan_) have a big, chunky body, a very high weight, and a relatively short neck and tail.

At 60 ft long and 48 tonnes-odd in weight, _Barapasaurus_ should be 20 ft Bite Reach, 20 ft Tail Slap Reach, 20 ft Space.

The "short neck and tail" group- with all three being the same length- would possibly cover quite a few sauropods, from the early, to the late.

_Camerasaurus_ is listed as only 59 ft long- and has both a short neck, and a (fairly) short tail- yet is fairly heavy at around 18 tonnes.

So, maybe there should be a group of chunky sauropods- ranging from 30 ft Large, to 45 ft Huge, to 60 ft Gargantuan (_Barapasaurus_) to 90 ft Colossal (_Paralititan_?)

This might also work for brachiosaurs- tail reach being twice bite reach seems a bit much- especially since many have very long necks and very short tails (_Qiaowanlong_, _Giraffatitan_, _Sauroposeidon_). The high shoulders might restrict the bite reach- but not that much.

Even _Brachiosaurus altithorax_ does not look especially long-tailed- not when tail is compared to body length.

Using the same formula as for Chunky Sauropods, would give: 

45 ft long for a Huge brachiosaur-type: _Qiaowanlong_ or _Euhelopus,_
60 ft for a Gargantuan one- like _Giraffatitan_, 
and 90 ft for a Colossal one (_Sauroposeidon_).

EDIT: While Wikipedia has since edited the Diplodocus and Amphicoelias entries- I managed to find a reference of mine in another thread, prior to the edit, that gave, for the original _Diplodocus carnegii_ skeleton, a head/neck length of 22 ft, body length of 13 ft, tail length of 50 ft. This equates to 85 ft.

Rounding down, after placing  on a 15 ft base, and allowing for the curve of the spine and the wavy tail- the 20 ft Bite, 15 ft Space, 45 ft Tail Huge diplodocid, does seem to work- it is a little short, but not problematically so.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 6, 2009)

hamishspence said:


> So, maybe there should be a group of chunky sauropods- ranging from 30 ft Large, to 45 ft Huge, to 60 ft Gargantuan (_Barapasaurus_) to 90 ft Colossal (_Paralititan_?)




For most of the chunky sauropods I'd just use my standard 'Brontosaur' stats, and Brachiosaurs for the particularly bulky ones.

EDIT: I've added a note to that effect to my sauropod stats.


----------



## hamishspence (Nov 6, 2009)

*Brachiosaur-types*

For the Brachiosaur basic type, it gave a figure of twice the bite reach, for the tail- same proportions as the basic sauropod- which is the bit I was dubious about (since some have a tail reach (and bite reach) roughly the same length- such as _Barapasaurus_)

Though the sample one actually has a 20ft tail slap.

Maybe reduce the tail slap range?

it makes a good general sauropod type- from quite low sizes to quite high- since a lot of sauropods, and possibly prosauropods, were in the 45 ft long but Huge Size category- with tails and necks close to the same length.

so- the following major classes:

Basic Sauropod: 
Bite reach = Space, Tail reach = 2 x Space

Slender Sauropod: 
Bite reach = 1.5 x Space, Tail reach = 3 x Space

Chunky/Tall Sauropod:
Bite reach = Space, Tail reach = Space

All these seem about right.

and maybe with the other two as "templates" that can be layered onto an existing one?

Long necked Sauropod: 
As one of the other categories, but Bite Reach = 2 x Space

Short-tailed Sauropod:
As one of the other categories, but Tail Slap Reach = Space

Armoured Sauropod: 
As one of the other classes (usually either Basic or Chunky/Tall)

Using this system: 
_Mamenchisaurus_ could be a Basic Sauropod with the Long-necked template added,

_Supersaurus_ could be a Slender Sauropod with the Long-necked template added, and:

_Sauroposeidon_ could be a Chunky Sauropod with the Long necked  template added.

With all 3 being Gargantuan.


----------



## hamishspence (Nov 6, 2009)

*Alternative sizing option*

Instead of giving each of the three major types of sauropod (Standard, Slender, Heavy)  different Bite and Tail Slap Reach values (since so many break them) why not split the Rech values off, giving them each their own names:

Very Short (0.5 x Reach)
Short(Reach)
Average (1.5 x Reach)
Long (2 x Reach)
Very Long (2.5 x Reach)
Extremely Long (3 x Reach)

(all lengths round _down_ to the nearest 5 ft, to a minimum of 5 ft at Medium Size)

Using this system: 
_Diplodocus_ would be a Huge Slender Sauropod with an Average neck and an Extremely Long tail (20 ft + 15 ft + 45 ft = 80 ft)

_Nigersaurus_ would be a Large Standard Sauropod with a Very Short neck and an Average tail (5 ft + 10 ft + 15 ft = 30 ft)

Does this simplify the Size arguments somewhat?


----------



## xidoraven (Nov 7, 2009)

hamishspence said:


> 3.5 statblocks do (sometimes) allow for Colossal creatures with a Space larger than 30 ft.
> 
> the 3.5 revision to Epic Handbook, gives the devastation vermin, and the biggest Abomination, a 50 ft space.




In Draconomicon, it covers only shortly the idea of 'Colossal+' which I have only ever seen in that book.  I will have to post what I know about it later when my things aren't being packed and moved around (*sniffles* I hate not being able to look at my books).



hamishspence said:


> It is sort of funny- that we've just been statting out spiked, armoured- and club-tailed thyreophorans-
> 
> and it turns out- that there are spiked, armoured, and club-tailed sauropods.




Some of the armored sauropoda are in my list for creatures I need specifically for my campaign setting.  Cleon, you did at one time ask me if there was a list I did not post here...  Here for dinos and here for prims.  Both of those and more content is featured on the Elftown wikipage for Nym (setting).



Cleon said:


> As far as my stats are concerned whiptails are a standard feature of most of the sauropods.
> 
> I thought about including spine-backed sauropods but most sauropod spines were fairly small they'd probably not do much as far as the animal's D&D stat go, so I decided to consider them to be for display or species recognition of a a standard generic Sauropod, or just part of the armour of an Armoured sauropod to cover the most exaggeratedly spiny genera like _Augustina_.




I agree with that choice - if they are not big enough to make a difference in attack, and don't add to AC it's not worth adding - but natural AC is a good idea.

I was also thinking about reach and our long-necked friends...  And even though MMI outlines certain guidelines for creating a standard creature of a standard shape and size, these critters (esp. dinos) are in many ways completely unique to D&D stats for other creatures like ogres and tarrasques - for the simple fact that they have very unique and extended physiology that I think begs for changed stats with certain attacks (such as bite or tailwhip attacks for sauropoda, for example - because of incredibly long necks and tails exceeding typical stats for a creature of that build.  In other words, I think some things could be tweaked because of specific physiology which warrants it.

I dunno - in any case, you both are blowing me out the water here.  I feel impotent.    

Minmi makes me smile to think about it....  I would adore having a little ankylosaur of that size of smaller.  I bet they would be like a cow.....  but I want one to play fetch with....


----------



## hamishspence (Nov 7, 2009)

*Colossal+*

_Epic Handbook_ invented it, _Draconomicon_ expanded on it.

Oddly, the Devastation Vermin (and the Aspect of the Leviathan in Elder Evils) were only described as Colossal- despite their having a bigger Space.

From what I can tell, Colossal+ dragons only get expanded Reach, not Space (they are still listed as 30 ft Space in Draconomicon). which is strange.

Especially given that the miniature for the Colossal Red Dragon, appears to have a base twice as wide as those of the Gargantuan dragons- putting it at 40 ft Space.

I did some tests with my proposed Reach categories and they work quite well for distinguishing otherwise similar diplodocids:

_Barosaurus_: Huge, Long Neck, Very Long Tail- works out to:
30 ft neck, 15 ft body, 35 ft tail

_Diplodocus_: Huge, Average Neck, Extremely Long Tail:
20 ft neck, 15 ft body, 45 ft tail

_Mamenchisaurus_: Huge, Very Long Neck, Long Tail:
35 ft neck, 15 ft body, 30 ft tail

_Apatosaurus_ (young) 
Huge, Short Neck, Long Tail:
15 ft neck, 15 ft body, 30 ft tail

and you can, roughly, represent the Gargantuan ones too:

_Supersaurus_: Gargantuan, Long Neck, Very Long Tail:
40 ft neck, 20 ft body, 50 ft tail

_Diplodocus hallorum_: Gargantuan, Average Neck, Extremely Long Tail:
30 ft neck, 20 ft body, 60 ft tail

_Mamenchisaurus_: Gargantuan, Very Long Neck, Long Tail:
50 ft neck, 20 ft body, 40 ft tail

_Apatosaurus _(adult)
Gargantuan, Short Neck, Long Tail:
20 ft neck, 20 ft body, 40 ft tail


----------



## Cleon (Nov 8, 2009)

xidoraven said:


> Some of the armored sauropoda are in my list for creatures I need specifically for my campaign setting.  Cleon, you did at one time ask me if there was a list I did not post here...  Here for dinos and here for prims.  Both of those and more content is featured on the Elftown wikipage for Nym (setting).




Okay, I'll have a look at your dinosaur list...

...Hmm, the _Megaraptor_ stats I posted back on page 1 of this thread will do for _Baryonyx_ in a pinch, and I think I've pretty well covered most of the Sauropods and Thyreophoran armoured dinosaurs.

I've already got takes on _Coelophysis_, _Dilophosaurus, __Spinosaurus _and Ornithomimosaurs practically finished, so I can hopefully post those in a day or three.

EDIT: Hold on, I'd already posted my *Ornithomimid stats* when I unveiled my take on _Deinocheirus_.:EDIT

That would seem to leave Scythe-Lizard (e.g. Segnosaurus), Horn-Face (Ceratopsians & Protoceratopsians) and Bird-Foot (Iguanodons & Hadrosaurs) dinosaurs as the main standouts on your "want lists". I started roughing out some Therizinosaurs a few weeks ago but got distracted by work, so those would (most likely) be the first type I'd do, followed by the Horned Dinosaurs, although I'll release the lighweight theropods I mentioned in the previous paragraph first.

It would also be pretty easy to scale down my _Deinonychus_ and _Utahraptor_ stats to create the smaller Dromaeosaurs such as _Velociraptor_ (Small), _Bambiraptor_ (Tiny), but I think I'd want to do a more elaborate write-up like I did for the Sauropods and Thyreophorans so I can include the various other Maniraptors: the Diminutive _Epidexipteryx_; the more lightly armed *Troodontidae*_; _the winged and half-winged (_Sinornithosaurus, __Rahonavis, Archaeopterytx_ et cetera) and the short-armed *Unenlagiinae*.



xidoraven said:


> Cleon said:
> 
> 
> > As far as my stats are concerned whiptails are a standard feature of most of the sauropods.
> ...




Ugh! I must have written that in a hurry, judging by the typos. I'll have to edit it for grammar, so I do not have to face the shame of it.



xidoraven said:


> I was also thinking about reach and our long-necked friends...  And even though MMI outlines certain guidelines for creating a standard creature of a standard shape and size, these critters (esp. dinos) are in many ways completely unique to D&D stats for other creatures like ogres and tarrasques - for the simple fact that they have very unique and extended physiology that I think begs for changed stats with certain attacks (such as bite or tailwhip attacks for sauropoda, for example - because of incredibly long necks and tails exceeding typical stats for a creature of that build.  In other words, I think some things could be tweaked because of specific physiology which warrants it.




Yes, I think having a maximum reach of triple space is a reasonable upper limit. If I remember correctly, there are 3E stats for an awl pike which give it triple reach, and I think of a Diplodocus's tail as having a similar extravagant extent.



xidoraven said:


> Minmi makes me smile to think about it....  I would adore having a little ankylosaur of that size of smaller.  I bet they would be like a cow.....  but I want one to play fetch with....




I'd think a _Bambiraptor_ would make a cuter pet, and be more likely to enjoy fetch.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 8, 2009)

Anyway, I've finished the Prosauropod stats so might as well post them.

I think I'd better put them in a new post rather than insert them in the Sauropoda stats - that post is already long enough!

I may add some flavour text later or tweak the stats later. I decided to give them a single "claws" attack because their arms are short and (probably) not that agile, so it felt appropriate that they could only grab a single foe with both hands as one attack. That, and I wanted to distinguish them more from the dinosaurs with longer arms that have a pair of claw attacks in 3E.

You may also have noticed I put the age data in *blue*. That was just a result of fooling around with the formatting, but I quite liked the way it stood out in the original layout so left it in. Works better against a white background, though.

EDIT: Hmm, that blue really doesn't work on the Enworld boards, I'll probably change it later.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 8, 2009)

*Prosauropods*

*Bipedal Prosauropods*
Bipedal prosauropods have massive tails which account for roughly half their body length, barrel-like bodies supported on strong hind legs and short but sturdy forearms whose 5-fingered hands are equipped with sturdy claws, with an enlarged claw on their innermost digit (the "thumb"). Their heads are fairly small, on a quite long neck. They have small, serrated teeth that can give quite a nasty bite, but their claws and tails are their primary defence.

A bipedal prosauropods stats could be used to represent a fairly generic bipedal herbivorous dinosaur, such as a _Hypsilophodon_, although such animals were probably a little faster and did not have as large claws.

*Small Prosauropod (Thecodontosaurus)
Late Triassic (225-200 MYA)
*Small Animal
*Hit* *Dice:* 1d8+2 (6 hp)
*Initiative:* +0
*Speed:* 40 ft. (8 squares)
*Armor* *Class:* 16 (+1 size, +1 Dex, +4 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 15
*Base* *Attack/Grapple:* +0/+0
*Attack:* Tail-slap +0 melee (1d6) or claw +0 melee (1d4)
*Full* *Attack:* Tail-slap +0 melee (1d6); or claws +0 melee (1d4) and bite –5 melee (1d3)
*Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft.
*Special* *Attacks:* —
*Special* *Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +4, Ref +3, Will +1
*Abilities:* Str 11, Dex 12, Con 15, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 4
*Skills:* Listen +5, Spot +5
*Feats:* Alertness
*Environment:* Temperate and warm plains or forests
*Organization:* Solitary, pair, family (3-12) or herd (10–60)
*Challenge* *Rating:* ¼
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 2 (Small); 3-6 (Medium); 7-13 HD (Large); 14-21 (Huge)
*Level* *Adjustment:* —

The smallest bipedal prosauropods include the oldest and most primitive examples of their kind, such as _Panphagia_.

A Small-sized bipedal prosauropod is roughly 5 feet long from nose to tail and weighs around 20-30 pounds.

*Little Prosauropod (Unaysaurus)
Late Triassic (225-200 MYA)
*Small Animal
*Hit* *Dice:* 2d8+4 (13 hp)
*Initiative:* +0
*Speed:* 40 ft. (8 squares)
*Armor* *Class:* 16 (+1 size, +1 Dex, +4 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 15
*Base* *Attack/Grapple:* +0/+0
*Attack:* Tail-slap +0 melee (1d6+1) or claws +0 melee (1d4+1)
*Full* *Attack:* Tail-slap +0 melee (1d6+1); or claws +0 melee (1d4+1) and bite –5 melee (1d3)
*Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft.
*Special* *Attacks:* —
*Special* *Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +5, Ref +4, Will +1
*Abilities:* Str 13, Dex 12, Con 15, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 4
*Skills:* Listen +6, Spot +5
*Feats:* Alertness
*Environment:* Temperate and warm plains or forests
*Organization:* Solitary, pair, family (3-12) or herd (10–60)
*Challenge* *Rating:* ¼
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 3-6 (Medium); 7-13 HD (Large); 14-21 (Huge)
*Level* *Adjustment:* —

A little bipedal prosauropod roughly 7 feet long from nose to tail and weighing around 50-60 pounds.

*Medium Prosauropod (Coloradisaurus?)
Late Triassic (220-210 MYA)
*Medium Animal
*Hit* *Dice:* 3d8+9 (22 hp)
*Initiative:* +0
*Speed:* 40 ft. (8 squares)
*Armor* *Class:* 15 (+0 Dex, +5 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 15
*Base* *Attack/Grapple:* +2/+4
*Attack:* Tail-slap +4 melee (1d8+3) or claws +5 melee (1d6+2)
*Full* *Attack:* Tail-slap +4 melee (1d8+3); or claws +5 melee (1d6+2) and bite –1 melee (1d4+1)
*Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft.
*Special* *Attacks:* —
*Special* *Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +6, Ref +3, Will +2
*Abilities:* Str 15, Dex 10, Con 17, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 4
*Skills:* Listen +6, Spot +6
*Feats:* Alertness, Weapon Focus (claw)
*Environment:* Temperate and warm plains or forests
*Organization:* Solitary, pair, family (3-12) or herd (10–60)
*Challenge* *Rating:* 1
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 4-6 (Medium); 7-13 HD (Large); 14-21 (Huge)
*Level* *Adjustment:* —

A Medium-sized bipedal prosauropod is roughly 10 feet long from nose to tail and weighs around 180-250 pounds.

*Large Prosauropod (Massospondylus)
Late Triassic to Early Jurassic (210-185 MYA)
*Large Animal
*Hit* *Dice:* 7d8+28 (59 hp)
*Initiative:* +0
*Speed:* 40 ft. (8 squares)
*Armor* *Class:* 15 (-1 size, +0 Dex, +6 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 15
*Base* *Attack/Grapple:* +5/+13
*Attack:* Tail-slap +8 melee (2d6+6) or claws +9 melee (1d10+4)
*Full* *Attack:* Tail-slap +8 melee (2d6+6); or claws +9 melee (1d10+4) and bite +3 melee (1d6+2)
*Space/Reach:* 10 ft./5 ft. (10 ft. with tail)
*Special* *Attacks:* Trample 2d6+6 [_DC17_]
*Special* *Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +9, Ref +5, Will +3
*Abilities:* Str 19, Dex 10, Con 19, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 4
*Skills:* Listen +8, Spot +8
*Feats:* Alertness, Endurance, Weapon Focus (claws)
*Environment:* Temperate and warm plains or forests
*Organization:* Solitary, pair, family (3-12) or herd (10–60)
*Challenge* *Rating:* 3
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 8-13 HD (Large); 14-21 (Huge)
*Level* *Adjustment:* —

A Large-sized bipedal prosauropod is roughly 14 feet long from nose to tail and weighs around 500-700 pounds.

*Big Prosauropod (Plateosaurus)
Late Triassic (215-200 MYA)
*Large Animal
*Hit* *Dice:* 10d8+50 (95 hp)
*Initiative:* +0
*Speed:* 40 ft. (8 squares)
*Armor* *Class:* 16 (-1 size, +0 Dex, +7 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 16
*Base* *Attack/Grapple:* +7/+17
*Attack:* Tail-slap +12 melee (2d6+9) or claws +13 melee (1d10+6)
*Full* *Attack:* Tail-slap +12 melee (2d6+9); or claws +13 melee (1d10+6) and bite +7 melee (1d6+3)
*Space/Reach:* 10 ft./5 ft. (15 ft. with tail)
*Special* *Attacks:* Trample 2d6+9 [_DC21_]
*Special* *Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +12, Ref +7, Will +4
*Abilities:* Str 23, Dex 10, Con 21, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 4
*Skills:* Listen +10, Spot +9
*Feats:* Alertness, Diehard, Endurance, Weapon Focus (claws)
*Environment:* Temperate and warm plains or forests
*Organization:* Solitary, pair, family (3-12) or herd (10–60)
*Challenge* *Rating:* 4
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 11-13 HD (Large); 14-21 (Huge)
*Level* *Adjustment:* —

The above stats are the largest size bipedal prosauropods commonly reached.

A big bipedal prosauropod is a Large-sized animal roughly 20 feet long from nose to tail and weighs around 1500-2000 pounds.

*Huge Prosauropod (Yunnanosaurus)
Early to Middle Jurassic (215-200 MYA)*
Huge Animal
*Hit* *Dice:* 14d8+84 (147 hp)
*Initiative:* +0
*Speed:* 40 ft. (8 squares)
*Armor* *Class:* 17 (-2 size, +0 Dex, +9 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 17
*Base* *Attack/Grapple:* +10/+26
*Attack:* Tail-slap +16 melee (3d6+12) or claws +17 melee (2d8+8)
*Full* *Attack:* Tail-slap +16 melee (3d6+12); or claws +17 melee (2d8+8) and bite +11 melee (1d8+4)
*Space/Reach:* 15 ft./10 ft. (20 ft. with tail)
*Special* *Attacks:* Trample 3d6+12 [_DC27_]
*Special* *Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +15, Ref +9, Will +5
*Abilities:* Str 27, Dex 10, Con 23, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 4
*Skills:* Listen +12, Spot +11
*Feats:* Ability Focus (trample), Alertness, Diehard, Endurance, Weapon Focus (claws)
*Environment:* Temperate and warm plains or forests
*Organization:* Solitary, pair, family (3-12) or herd (10–60)
*Challenge* *Rating:* 6
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 15-21 (Huge)
*Level* *Adjustment:* —

This is an exceptional size for a bipedal prosauropod, such as a particularly big _Plateosaurus_ or the largest species of _Yunannosaurus_. There's a distinct possibility some (or all) such animals were semi-quadrupedal, dropping on their front legs to graze but rearing up on their hind limbs to fight or run.

30 feet, 4000-7000 pounds, max about 40 feet and 6 tons?


----------



## hamishspence (Nov 8, 2009)

*Prosauropod stats*

These are nice- though I might trim the tail slap ranges down to equal to the Space.

This would give an "effective length" so to speak 
(bite reach + space + tail length), 

of 25 ft for a Big prosauropod, and 40 ft for a Huge one.

As it currently stands, they appear to have an effective length of 30 ft for the Big one, and 45 ft for the Huge one.

Maybe a bit much?

Remember that just because it is Large (or Huge) doesn't mean its actual body is 10 or 15 ft long- some of its tail will be inside its Space, as will some of its neck.

a 40 ft "effective fighting length" for a Huge prosauropod is still pretty hefty.

So far, on the sauropod stats, the only thing that puzzles me, is:


Cleon said:


> To create a long-necked sauropod, simply take a standard sauropod and give it a bite reach equal to its tail reach..




(because several long-necked sauropods were built more like diplodocids- very long and slender)

and: 



Cleon said:


> A _Brachiosaurus_ has a sturdy body, with a shorter tail and longer forelegs than other sauropods. This group includes massive species that grow Gargantuan and Colossal size, such as _Giraffatitan brancai_. Apply the following changes to the base sauropod: +4 Strength, tail reach is twice the bite reach, Weapon Focus is in kick instead of tail.



 
because base sauropods already have a tail reach twice the bite reach- and most brachiosaur-types had shorter tails- maybe equal to the bite reach, or, at most, 1.5 times the bite reach.

If we went with 1.5 times the bite reach, _Brachiosaurus altithorax, _and maybe _Giraffatitan brancai,_ could be Standard Gargantuan Brachiosaurs, and _Sauroposeidon_ could be a Long-necked Gargantuan Brachiosaur (neck reach equal to tail reach- 30 ft, in this case).

Aside from those two things though- the statblocks seem like good approximations.

Splitting off Reach values from the statblocks (my suggestion) might produce more accurate lengths, but it might also be a bit of an overcomplication.

I like the megaraptor stats for Baryonyx- in fact I'd recommend renaming it that, using it as a template for "spinosaurs" and giving the actual _Megaraptor_ its own statblock- with features such as faster speed than the average carnosaur.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 9, 2009)

hamishspence said:


> These are nice- though I might trim the tail slap ranges down to equal to the Space.
> 
> This would give an "effective length" so to speak
> (bite reach + space + tail length),
> ...




Yes, but that was deliberate since the Huge prosauropod was meant to be an incredibly large specimen, the Big prosauropod is meant to represent the normal upper limit.



hamishspence said:


> (because several long-necked sauropods were built more like diplodocids- very long and slender)




I was just going to use a Diplodocids stat for the long-necked, very-long tailed slender varieties of Sauropod, even if they might not technically be close kin to _Diplodocus_.

and: 



hamishspence said:


> because base sauropods already have a tail reach twice the bite reach- and most brachiosaur-types had shorter tails- maybe equal to the bite reach, or, at most, 1.5 times the bite reach.




Oops. Actually, I gave them bite = Space (15 ft), tail = twice base Reach (20 ft), but forgot to change the descriptive text. The stats are correct, though.


----------



## hamishspence (Nov 9, 2009)

Ah, so twice the base reach, (not the bite reach), where base reach is assumed to be Short.

If Long Necked could be applied to both standard sauropods and brachiosaurs, it can be used to represent both _Mamenchisaurus_ and _Sauroposeidon_.

(with _Sauroposeidon_ as an Advanced Gargantuan Brachiosaur with the Long-necked trait added- 30 ft neck, 20 ft body, 30 ft tail)

_Brachiosaurus altithorax_ and _Giraffatitan brancai_ would be ordinary Gargantuan Brachiosaurs.

Applying the Long-necked trait to a diplodocid might be a bit trickier- a Gargantuan one would end up with a 60 ft neck and 60 ft tail- a bit much.

Some long-necked sauropods had necks significantly longer than their tails- _Omeisaurus_ in particular.


----------



## hamishspence (Nov 9, 2009)

*Brachiosaurs and bipedal prosauropods*

On brachiosauroids- I'm a bit puzzled that Tail Reach range is phrased in terms of normal reach for them, when its phrased in terms of Space for the other two.

This results in a Tail Reach of 10 ft rather than 15 ft at Large size- whereas "Tail reach = 1.5 x Space" would give the same proportions all the way up.

In general though- Reach values are always going to be tricky- since some sauropods are bound to not fit.

Such as 40 ft long 8 ton sauropods like _Saltasaurus_, or _Melanorosaurus._

Given that, for one of these, its body won't fill the 15 ft base, but take up a fairly small part of it in the middle (compared to an _Apatosaurus_, anyway) a possible set of Space and Reach values for 40 ft sauropods would be: 10 ft Bite Reach, 15 ft Space, 15 ft Tail Slap Reach.

On bipedal prosauropods- since they are bipedal (like theropods) their hind legs will be roughly at the centre of their base- placing them somewhat forward. Thus, reducing the "effective reach" of their tails.

Hence the suggested 10 ft Bite 15 ft Space 15 ft Tail Slap for the Huge one.

_Plateosaurus extralargeus  _can be represented as having a boosted bite reach- 10 ft instead of 5 ft- thus producing a bipedal prosauropod with the same proportions as a Large Theropod with a Long Reach- 30 ft long.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 10, 2009)

hamishspence said:


> On brachiosauroids- I'm a bit puzzled that Tail Reach range is phrased in terms of normal reach for them, when its phrased in terms of Space for the other two.
> 
> This results in a Tail Reach of 10 ft rather than 15 ft at Large size- whereas "Tail reach = 1.5 x Space" would give the same proportions all the way up.




Hmm, that might work better. It would also mean that Medium and Small Brachiosaurs do not have tail reach twice their bite reach (10 ft vs 5 ft) according to the current rule of thumb. Although it may be easier to just say Brachiosaurs smaller than Huge have tail reach = bite reach = space.

I'll have to think about it.



hamishspence said:


> In general though- Reach values are always going to be tricky- since some sauropods are bound to not fit.




Yes, that's one reason I'm reluctant to do too much fiddling with them to exactly fit a particular genus. So long as it's in the right ballpark I feel we're alright.



hamishspence said:


> On bipedal prosauropods- since they are bipedal (like theropods) their hind legs will be roughly at the centre of their base- placing them somewhat forward. Thus, reducing the "effective reach" of their tails.




I tend to visualize the "Space" as the area occupied by the torso (i.e. from nape of neck to back of hip) for the more elongated dinosaurs, so the hindlegs would be a little backset from the centre, so it's not surprising we come out with different results. You're welcome to modify the space/reach for your own use.


----------



## hamishspence (Nov 10, 2009)

*Space*

I do also- when it comes to quadrupeds (ones at the smaller end won't reach all the way across space, but will still be "centred" with forelegs and hindlegs on either side of the Space.)

But for bipeds- I figure the "centre of mass" should be roughly above the centre of the base- which means, generally, the legs.

The result is, that roughly an equal amount of the animal's length, projects forward and rearward of the centre of mass, 

but the torso is all forward of it.

Long-tailed theropods will have a little more of the tail projecting back- but still look "balanced" on a base.

Long-tailed bipedal sauropodomorphs, will be the same.

To sum up- if a T. rex was modelled as standing, with his body held horizontally, and his hind legs right at the edge of the circular base- he will look a bit off.

The same, I think, is true for a bipedal Plateosaurus or Yunnanosaurus- with its body held close to horizontal, but its arms tucked in, well off the ground.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 10, 2009)

*Size Steps*



Cleon said:


> Hmm, that might work better. It would also mean that Medium and Small Brachiosaurs do not have tail reach twice their bite reach (10 ft vs 5 ft) according to the current rule of thumb. Although it may be easier to just say Brachiosaurs smaller than Huge have tail reach = bite reach = space.
> 
> I'll have to think about it.




Well I've thought about it, and it doesn't look like it's worth changing. The only difference between 200% Short Reach and 150% Long Reach for Huge to Colossal creatures is the Colossal one gets 5 feet more. Don't think I could be bothered changing it, especially as I prefer all the reaches of the Colossal Brach in nice neat 10-foot steps.

I'm going to add a note giving "Lesser Brachs" having bite & tail reaches equal to their Space.

Anyway, while we're on the subject of Sizes, you may have noticed that I have a tendency to add intermediary sized creatures (e.g. a Large animal with Str 16, a 'Big' Large animal with Str 20, and a Huge animal with Str 24), mainly because I don't think the 3E size advancements are granular enough.

I think I'd better formalize the scheme, my current plan is:

*Size...........Size (Space).Str+Con*
*Fine*...........Fine..([FONT=&quot]½[/FONT] ft).-12..-2 [RAW Rules say Str -10]
*Diminutive*.....Dimin.(1 ft).-10..-2
*Tiny*...........Tiny.(2[FONT=&quot]½[/FONT] ft)..-8..-2
_Very Small_.....Tiny.(2[FONT=&quot]½[/FONT] ft)..-6..-2
*Small*..........Small.(5 ft)..-4..-2
_Little_.........Small.(5 ft)..-2..+0
*Medium*.........Medium(5 ft)..+0..+0
 _Big_............Medium(5 ft)..+4..+2
 *Large*..........Large(10 ft)..+8..+4
 _Very Large_.....Large(10 ft).+12..+6
*Huge*...........Huge.(15 ft).+16..+8
_Enormous_.......Huge.(15 ft).+20.+10
*Gargantuan*.....Garg.(20 ft).+24.+12
_Titanic_........Garg.(20 ft).+28.+14 [A 25 ft Space is tempting]
*Colossal*.......Col..(30 ft).+32.+16
_Super Colossal_.Col.(40 ft?).+36.+18
*EPIC!*..........Col+.(50 ft).+40.+20

The sizes above Gargantuan are just for illustration, I doubt any of the remaining prehistoric beasts I stat up for this thread will have a size of Colossal, unless I decide to stat up the more exaggeratedly large estimates of some marine reptiles.


----------



## hamishspence (Nov 11, 2009)

*More than Colossal*

About the only dinosaur that qualifies is _Amphicoelias_- and then, only if you're not using "very tight space" but are willing to place a 30 ft body on a 40 ft space.

On marine reptiles- 25 metre Walking with Dinosaurs _Liopleurodon_ could have fitted into normal Colossal (30 ft space, 30 ft bite reach, 20 ft tail slap).

Since that turned out to be a massive overestimate based on guesswork, I doubt any other marine reptile was that big.

_Pliosaurus macromerus_ (18 m) and _Hainosaurus_ (17 m) and _Shonisaurus_ (21 m) are some of the biggest marine reptiles- and they fit better into Gargantuan than Colossal.

A fully grown, 110 ft long, 200+ ton blue whale however, is a better candidate for 40 ft space. Although maybe not 50 ft space.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 11, 2009)

hamishspence said:


> About the only dinosaur that qualifies is _Amphicoelias_- and then, only if you're not using "very tight space" but are willing to place a 30 ft body on a 40 ft space.




Quite. Even Gargantuan is a severe stretch for the non-sauropod dinosaurs. I would think it conceivably that the largest Ceratopsian may have reached 30,000 pounds and the largest Hadrosaurs 25,000, so extraordinary individuals may just creep above Huge size. Of course, many of the 3E dinosaurs can advance to Gargantuan, even if it not very realistic, so I'm planning to include stats for them.



hamishspence said:


> On marine reptiles- 25 metre Walking with Dinosaurs _Liopleurodon_ could have fitted into normal Colossal (30 ft space, 30 ft bite reach, 20 ft tail slap).
> 
> Since that turned out to be a massive overestimate based on guesswork, I doubt any other marine reptile was that big.




That would be the exaggeration in "exaggeratedly large estimates" I mentioned upthread.

Anyhow, of realistic prehistoric marine reptiles I consider _Shonisaurus sikanniensis_ the only credible candidate for Colossal size. I guesstimate a 70 foot specimen would weigh somewhere around 100-150 metric tons, probably closer to the former since it was apparently slimmer than _Shonisaurus popularis_, which would be more like 50 feet long and 50 tons. They could also have grown bigger than the current 21m estimate of the type specimen, which I think would definitely make them Colossal.

I'd also think 50 feet is probably a good round number for the largest Pliosaurs, Elasmosaurs and Mosasaurs, I don't recall any solid fossil evidence for individuals larger than that.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 11, 2009)

Cleon said:


> xidoraven said:
> 
> 
> > Some of the armored sauropoda are in my list for creatures I need specifically for my campaign setting. Cleon, you did at one time ask me if there was a list I did not post here... Here for dinos and here for prims.  Both of those and more content is featured on the Elftown wikipage for Nym (setting).
> ...




OK, I've finished off Coelophysis and it's cousins, so will post them up. Oh, and I discovered I've already finished a take on _Spinosaurus_, so might as well post that too.

As I mentioned upthread, I remembered I've already finished & posted the Ornithomimids.

I'll probably do the Therizinosaurs next, then maybe tackle some more herbivores.

Perhaps the horned dinosaurs?


----------



## Cleon (Nov 11, 2009)

*Lightweight Carnosaurs (Coelophysoids)*

*Coelophysoids and other Lightweight Carnosaurs*
The Coelophysidae are a primitive group of predatory dinosaurs with a particularly lightweight built. Their stats could be used for any modest sized carnivorous dinosaurs with a similar build - shortish arms, slim and light body, long necks and small heads - although some such creatures, such as _Compsognathus_, are advanced enough they should really have slightly modified stats.

I've included poisonous variants of some Coelophysoids, inspired by the *Jurassic Park* novels which made several members of this group (_Procompsognathus_ and _Dilophosaurus_) venomous. While there is absolutely no evidence for this trait, it makes for an interesting ability, so I thought it worth having stats for them.

*Coelophysis*
*Late* *Triassic* *(225-210* *MYA)*
Small Animal
*Hit* *Dice:* 1d8 (4 hp)
*Initiative:* +3
*Speed:* 50 ft. (10 squares)
*Armor* *Class:* 15 (+1 size, +3 Dex, +1 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 12
*Base* *Attack/Grapple:* +0/–5
*Attack:* Bite +4 melee (1d4-1)
*Full* *Attack:* Bite +4 melee (1d4-1) and 2 claws –1 melee (1d2-1)
*Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft.
*Special* *Attacks:* — *(*Poison?*)*
*Special* *Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +2, Ref +5, Will +1
*Abilities:* Str 9, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 10
*Skills:* Hide +8, Listen +5, Spot +5, Survival +5
*Feats:* Endurance, Track*(B)*, Weapon Finesse*(B)*
*Environment:* Warm forests or plains
*Organization:* Solitary, pair, pack (3-12) or flock (10-60)
*Challenge* *Rating:* 1/3
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 2 HD (Small); 3 HD (Medium)
*Level* *Adjustment:* —

A small bipedal dinosaur with lean legs and short arms, with a very long tail more than half its entire length, a slim body and long, S-curved neck. Its smallish, narrow head is as whippet-thin as the rest of its body, with large eyes and jaws full of slicing teeth.

_Coelophysis_ is one of the earliest known dinosaurs. They have an extremely light build, with hollow bones to save weight, making them fragile but remarkably swift. They are opportunistic hunters and scavengers, roaming the land in search of carrion or vulnerable prey. A lone _Coelophysis_ rarely preys on anything larger than a lizard, but these animals often congregate in flocks, and have been known to bring down victims of considerable size by swarming over them.

A group of _Coelophysis_ does not have a leadership hierarchy as such, they move in concert through a flocking instinct. It may appear that the biggest, oldest _Coelophysis_ have a commanding role in the flock, but this is simply because their greater experience means they are most likely to spot potential food first, and are strong enough to push to the front in order to reach it.

Despite their delicate appearance these are fairly resilient little creatures, able to survive in harsh condition. There are claims they will sometimes resort to cannibalism of their own young.

The above statistics represent an adolescent or young adult Coelophysis. In a typical population, there is a 2 Hit Dice mature adult for every four such young adults, and a 3 Hit Dice elder _Coelophysis_ for every twenty young adults. Depending on how recent and successful the breeding season was, there may be additional ½HD Tiny juveniles equal in number to the young adults or a greater number of Diminutive or Fine sized hatchlings. See below for typical stats for such creatures.

A young adult _Coelophysis_ is 5 or 6 feet long, weighing about 10 pounds.

*Combat*
When fighting an opponent near its own size, a _Coelophysis_ will instinctively try to circle around to bite its foe from the flanks. A flock of _Coelophysis_ will cooperate to attack prey but do not coordinate tactics beyond rushing in en masse to bite a wounded or otherwise vulnerable victim.

*[Poison* *(Ex):* If you choose to use the venomous Coelophysoid option, the _Coelophysis_ has a poisonous bite that does 1d3 Strength damage as both initial and secondary damage, with a DC10 Fortitude save. _Coelophysis_ venom is painful and debilitating, but rarely fatal – assuming the dinosaurs don't eat you while you're helpless. The save DC is Constitution-based.

A venomous _Coelophysis_ has a Challenge Rating of 1/2 *?**]

**Skills
*A _Coelophysis_ has a +4 racial bonus on Listen, Spot, and Survival checks.

*Coelophysis**,* *Mature* *Adult*
Small Animal
*Hit* *Dice:* 2d8 (9 hp)
*Initiative:* +3
*Speed:* 50 ft. (10 squares)
*Armor* *Class:* 15 (+1 size, +3 Dex, +1 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 12
*Base* *Attack/Grapple:* +1/–3
*Attack:* Bite +5 melee (1d4)
*Full* *Attack:* Bite +5 melee (1d4) and 2 claws +0 melee (1d2)
*Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft.
*Special* *Attacks:* — *[*Poison? [_DC11, 1d3 Str_]*?**]*
*Special* *Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +3, Ref +6, Will +1
*Abilities:* Str 11, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 10
*Skills:* Hide +8, Listen +5, Spot +6, Survival +5
*Feats:* Endurance, Track*(B)*, Weapon Finesse*(B)*
*Environment:* Warm forests or plains
*Organization:* Solitary, pair, pack (3-12) or flock (10-60)
*Challenge* *Rating:* 1/2 *[*_CR1 with poison*?*_*]*
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* —
*Level* *Adjustment:* —

A mature adult _Coelophysis_ is from 7 to 8 feet long and weighs about 30 pounds.

*Coelophysis**,* *Big*
Medium Animal
*Hit* *Dice:* 3d8+3 (16 hp)
*Initiative:* +3
*Speed:* 50 ft. (10 squares)
*Armor* *Class:* 15 (+3 Dex, +2 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 12
*Base* *Attack/Grapple:* +2/+3
*Attack:* Bite +5 melee (1d6+1)
*Full* *Attack:* Bite +5 melee (1d6+1) and 2 claws +0 melee (1d3)
*Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft.
*Special* *Attacks:* — *[*Poison? [_DC12, 1d4 Str_]*?**]*
*Special* *Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +4, Ref +6, Will +2
*Abilities:* Str 13, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 10
*Skills:* Hide +5, Listen +7, Spot +8, Survival +6
*Feats:* Alertness, Endurance, Track*(B)*, Weapon Finesse*(B)*
*Environment:* Warm forests or plains
*Organization:* Solitary, pair, pack (3-12) or flock (10-60)
*Challenge* *Rating:* 1 *(*CR2 with poison?*)*
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* —
*Level* *Adjustment:* —

These are simply _Coelophysis_ that have lived long enough to grow to unusual size.

A big _Coelophysis_ is about 10 feet long and 60 pounds or so, they stand roughly a yard tall.

*Coelophysis**,* *Juvenile*
Tiny Animal
*Hit* *Dice:* ½d8 (2 hp)
*Initiative:* +3
*Speed:* 50 ft. (10 squares)
*Armor* *Class:* 15 (+2 size, +3 Dex), touch 15, flat-footed 12
*Base* *Attack/Grapple:* +0/–10
*Attack:* Bite +5 melee (1d3-2)
*Full* *Attack:* Bite +5 melee (1d3-2)
*Space/Reach:* 2½ ft./0 ft.
*Special* *Attacks:* — *[*Poison? [_DC10, 1d2 Str_]*?**]*
*Special* *Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +2, Ref +5, Will +1
*Abilities:* Str 6, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 10
*Skills:* Hide +12, Listen +5, Spot +5, Survival +5
*Feats:* Endurance, Track*(B)*, Weapon Finesse*(B)*
*Environment:* Warm forests or plains
*Organization:* Solitary, pair, pack (3-12) or flock (10-60) or swarm (see below)
*Challenge* *Rating:* 1/8 *[*_CR 1/4 with poison*?*_*]*
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* —
*Level* *Adjustment:* —

The above represents a juvenile _Coelophysis_ aged about a year or less. The same stats could be used in a pinch for other tiny-sized lightweight theropods such as _Procompsognathus_ from the Late Triassic (220-210 MYA) or _Compsognathus_ from the Late Jurassic (150 MYA). However, while _Procompsognathus_ is likely to be a Coelophysoid, _Compsognathus_ is not, being a Coelurosaur. It probably deserves somewhat tweaked stats, as given below.

A typical juvenile _Coelophysis_ is 4-5 feet long and weighs 5-6 pounds or so.

*Coelophysis **Swarm*
*Late Triassic (210 MYA)
*Tiny Animal (Swarm)
*Hit* *Dice:* 9d8 (40 hp)
*Initiative:* +3
*Speed:* 50 ft. (10 squares)
*Armor* *Class:* 15 (+2 size, +3 Dex), touch 15, flat-footed 12
*Base* *Attack/Grapple:* +6/–
*Attack:* Swarm (2d6)
*Full* *Attack:* Swarm (2d6)
*Space/Reach:* 10 ft./0 ft.
*Special* *Attacks:* Distraction *[*Poison [_DC14, 1d6 Str_]*?**]*
*Special* *Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +6, Ref +11, Will +6
*Abilities:* Str 6, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 10
*Skills:* Hide +12, Listen +9, Spot +9, Survival +8
*Feats:* Lightning Reflexes, Endurance, Iron Will, Skill Focus (Survival), Track*(B)*, Weapon Finesse*(B)*
*Environment:* Warm forests or plains
*Organization:* Solitary, pair, pack (3-12) or flock (10-60) or swarm (see below)
*Challenge* *Rating:* 4 *[*_CR 5 with poison*?*_*]*
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* —
*Level* *Adjustment:* —

A large number of infant _Coelophysis_ flocking together for mutual protection and survival, they can strip a mid-sized prosauropod to the bone in a welter of little slashing teeth. Such a swarm can also be used for a flock of adult _Procompsognathus_ as in the latter *Jurassic Park* films. Note that there is no scientific justification for hunting flocks of _Procompsognathus_, and although _Coelophysis_ may have lived in flocks the fossilized groups were of a wide range of ages.

*Combat*
A Coelophysis swarm simply mobs any potential meal they see, fleeing if they suffer serious (25-50%) losses.

*Distraction (Ex):* Any living creature that begins its turn with a _Coelophysis_ swarm in its space must succeed on a DC 14 Fortitude save or be nauseated for 1 round. The save DC is Constitution-based. 

*[Poison* *(Ex):* If you choose to use the venomous Coelophysoid option, a _Coelophysis_ swarm has a poisonous swarm-attack that does 1d6 Strength damage as both initial and secondary damage, with a DC14 Fortitude save. _Coelophysis_ venom is painful and debilitating, but rarely fatal – assuming the dinosaurs don't eat you while you're helpless. The save DC is Constitution-based.

A venomous _Coelophysis_ swarm has a Challenge Rating of 5 *?**]

* *Skills
*A _Coelophysis_ swarm has a +4 racial bonus on Listen, Spot, and Survival checks.

*Compsognathus*
*Late Jurassic (150-140 MYA)*
Tiny Animal
*Hit* *Dice:* ½d8 (2 hp)
*Initiative:* +4
*Speed:* 60 ft. (12 squares)
*Armor* *Class:* 16 (+2 size, +4 Dex), touch 15, flat-footed 12
*Base* *Attack/Grapple:* +0/–10
*Attack:* Bite +6 melee (1d3-3)
*Full* *Attack:* Bite +6 melee (1d3-3) and claws +6 melee (1d2-3)
*Space/Reach:* 2½ ft./0 ft.
*Special* *Attacks:* —
*Special* *Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +2, Ref +5, Will +1
*Abilities:* Str 5, Dex 19, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 10
*Skills:* Hide +13, Listen +6, Spot +6, Survival +5
*Feats:* Run, Track*(B)*, Weapon Finesse*(B)*
*Environment:* Warm forests or plains
*Organization:* Solitary
*Challenge* *Rating:* 1/8
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* —
*Level* *Adjustment:* —

_Compsognathus_ is an alert and (comparatively) intelligent little dinosaur with large eyes and a relatively big brain. It is particularly fond of eating lizards. They are lightweight and powerful for their size, making them incredibly fast animals.

A typical adult _Compsognathus_ is about 4 feet long but only weighs 1 or 2 pounds.

*Dilophosaurus*
*Early Jurassic* *(190-185* *MYA)*
Large Animal
*Hit* *Dice:* 6d8+18 (45 hp)
*Initiative:* +2
*Speed:* 60 ft. (12 squares)
*Armor* *Class:* 16 (–1 size, +2 Dex, +5 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 14
*Base* *Attack/Grapple:* +4/+13
*Attack:* Bite +9 melee (1d8+5)
*Full* *Attack:* Bite +9 melee (1d8+5) and 2 claws +6 melee (1d4+2)
*Space/Reach:* 10 ft./5 ft.
*Special* *Attacks:* Improved grab
*Special* *Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +8, Ref +7, Will +3
*Abilities:* Str 21, Dex 15, Con 16, Int 1, Wis 13, Cha 10
*Skills:* Hide +9, Listen +8, Spot +8, Survival +5
*Feats:* Multiattack, Weapon Focus (bite), Run*(B)*, Track
*Environment:* Warm forests or plains
*Organization:* Solitary or pair
*Challenge* *Rating:* 3
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 7-12 HD (Large)
*Level* *Adjustment:* —

A _Dilophosaurus_ is a predatory dinosaur with a very slim, lightweight build. It has two long curved crests along its snout.

An adult _Dilophosaurus_ stands about 5-6 feet tall, with a total length of 15-20 feet and an average weight around 600 pounds. A particularly large individual may weigh half a ton.

*Combat*
A _Dilophosaurus_ seeks to grab hold of an opponent and tear it apart with their claws and teeth. They usually hunt prey smaller than themselves, relying on their impressive speed to chase down prey and escape their enemies.

*Improved* *Grab* *(Ex):* To use this ability, a _Dilophosaurus_ must hit with a claw or bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.
*
Skills
*A _Dilophosaurus_ has a +4 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, Spot, and Survival checks.

*Venomous Dilophosaurus **(Fictional)*
*Early Jurassic* *(190-185* *MYA)*
Medium Animal
*Hit* *Dice:* 4d8+8 (26 hp)
*Initiative:* +3
*Speed:* 50 ft. (10 squares)
*Armor* *Class:* 16 (+3 Dex, +3 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 13
*Base* *Attack/Grapple:* +3/+5
*Attack:* Bite +6 melee (1d6+2 plus poison) or spit +6 ranged touch (poison)
*Full* *Attack:* Bite +6 melee (1d6+2 plus poison) and 2 claws +4 melee (1d3+1) or spit +14 ranged touch (poison)
*Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft.
*Special* *Attacks:* Improved grab, poison, scare
*Special* *Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +6, Ref +7, Will +3
*Abilities:* Str 15, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 12
*Skills:* Hide +8* [_+16 in undergrowth_], Intimidate +6, Listen +7, Move Silently +6, Spot +7, Survival +6
*Feats:* Multiattack, Ability Focus (poison), Track, Weapon Finesse*(B)*
*Environment:* Warm forests
*Organization:* Solitary or pair
*Challenge* *Rating:* 3
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 4-7 HD (Medium); 8-12 HD (Large)
*Level* *Adjustment:* —

A species of _Dilophosaurus_ unknown to science, sometimes called _Dilophosaurus_ _nedryphagous _by cryptozoologists ("Nedry-eating two-crested lizard"). As well as the twin curved head-crests of a regular_ Dilophosaurus_, the venomous _Dilophosaurus_ has an erectile ruff of skin supported by cartilaginous spines around the back of its head. This frill usually lies folded back against its neck, but the dinosaur can erect with great speed to startle or intimidate opponents with its bright patterns.

A typical venomous _Dilophosaurus_ has a total length of 12 feet and weighs 120 pounds or so. They grow slowly throughout their adult live, so can reach twice that length and a weight of 1000 pounds.

*Combat*
A _Dilophosaurus_ _nedryphagous _tries to stalk within spitting distance (literally!) of its prey and spit venom into their face, they then wait for their poison to take effect and try to eviscerate the blinded and weakened opponent. If threatened by an enemy of significant size they use their neck-frill in a bid to startle the enemy into hesitating in their attack, then spit in their face and flee, possibly returning to attack if their foe appears to be seriously poisoned.

*Improved* *Grab* *(Ex):* To use this ability, a _Dilophosaurus_ must hit with a claw or bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.

*Poison (Ex):* A venomous _Dilophosaurus_ has poisonous spittle it uses to weaken and blind its prey.

_Injury_ — bite, Fort DC16, initial and secondary damage 1d6 Str.

_Spit_ — ranged touch, Fort DC16, initial damage dazzled for 2d4 minutes, secondary damage 1d4 Strength and blindness for 2d4 minutes.

*Scare (Ex):* As a move-equivalent action, a _Dilophosaurus_  _nedryphagous _can erect its frill and shriek, this alone is usually sufficient to scare away foes or cause them to hesitate in their attacks (treat as a Intimidate check with a +6 bonus, including a +4 racial bonus).

As a standard action, the _Dilophosaurus_ can focus this unsettling display on a single creature within 40 feet, producing an effect that resembles a _cause fear_ spell from a 4th-level caster (Will DC 13 partial). Creatures with more Hit Dice than the _Dilophosaurus_ are immune to this effect, as are other _Dilophosaurus_  _nedryphagous_. If the subject succeeds on a Will save, it is shaken for 1 round, if it fails it is frightened for 1d4+1 rounds.

A creature that successfully saves against a venomous _Dilophosaurus's_ scare ability cannot be affected again by the same dinosaur for 24 hours.

This is a mind-affecting fear effect. The save DC is Charisma-based.
*
Skills
*A venomous _Dilophosaurus_ has a +4 racial bonus on Hide, Intimidate, Listen, Spot, and Survival checks.

*Its racial bonus to Hide increases to +12 in thick undergrowth.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 11, 2009)

*Spinosaurus*

*Spinosaurus*_ *aegyptiacus*_
*Middle* *Cretaceous* *(115-95* *MYA)*
Gargantuan Animal
*Hit* *Dice:* 20d8+120 (210 hp)
*Initiative:* +2
*Speed:* 50 ft. (10 squares)
*Armor* *Class:* 18 (–4 size, +2 Dex, +10 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 16
*Base* *Attack/Grapple:* +15/+37
*Attack:* Bite +22 melee (3d6+10/19-20) or claw +22 melee (2d6+5)
*Full* *Attack:* Bite +22 melee (3d6+10/19-20) and 2 claws +20 melee (2d6+5)
*Space/Reach:* 20 ft./15 ft.
*Special* *Attacks:* Improved grab
*Special* *Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +18, Ref +14, Will +8
*Abilities:* Str 31, Dex 15, Con 22, Int 1, Wis 14, Cha 10
*Skills:* Hide +4*, Listen +11, Spot +11, Survival +9
*Feats:* Combat Reflexes, Improved Critical (bite), Iron Will, Multiattack, Weapon Focus (claw), Weapon Focus (bite), Track
*Environment:* Warm plains or swamps
*Organization:* Solitary or pair
*Challenge* *Rating:* 9
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 21–30 HD (Gargantuan)
*Level* *Adjustment:* —

A _Spinosaurus_ is slim for a theropod and has unusually long, narrow jaws. It has fairly large forearms with 3 fingered hands.

This dinosaur is an swift moving, opportunistic predator that hunts small prey such as fish, juvenile dinosaurs and even pterosaurs. Its lightweight build and narrow jaws mean its ill-equipped for preying upon big creatures, but its Gargantuan size means there are many victims small enough for it to hunt.

A typical adult _Spinosaurus_ has a total length from 50 to 60 feet and weighs between 8 and 10 tons.

*Combat*
A _Spinosaurus_ seeks to grab hold of an opponent and tear it apart with their claws and teeth. They usually hunt prey smaller than themselves.

*Improved* *Grab* *(Ex):* To use this ability, a _Spinosaurus_ must hit with a claw or bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.
*
Skills
*A _Spinosaurus_ has a +4 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, Spot, and Survival checks.


----------



## hamishspence (Nov 12, 2009)

*Giant sea reptiles*

The main evidence for _Pliosaurus macromerus_ growing to 18 m is one single 3 m lower jaw mandible at the Oxford museum. And there is also Predator X, and a few others, at around 15 m

_Hainosaurus_ growing to 17 m I've seen a lot of times.

_Mauisaurus_ (a long-necked plesiosaur) growing to 20 m I've seen references to, but not much evidence. 

_Tylosaurus_ and _Mosasaurus_ both seem to come in at around 15 m, but _Mosasaurus_ is described as much more solidly built, with a stronger, more rigid skull not designed for swallowing large prey whole.

Since we seem to have switched away from the lengths and weights given in PHB- to a system based on Space, rather than nose to base of tail, I see no problem with a basic _Shonisaurus _having a 30 ft space, 20 ft bite reach, 20 ft tail slap- 70 ft overall.

The Coelophysoid stats look good, as do the spinosaur stats. The Dilophosaur stats can probably be used for any large, slender carnosaur- from _Gojirasaurus_ (a true coelophysoid) to _Elaphrosaurus_ (a ceratosaur)


----------



## Cleon (Nov 13, 2009)

hamishspence said:


> The Coelophysoid stats look good, as do the spinosaur stats. The Dilophosaur stats can probably be used for any large, slender carnosaur- from _Gojirasaurus_ (a true coelophysoid) to _Elaphrosaurus_ (a ceratosaur)




Ta.

I'm not 100% happy with the _Spinosaurus aegyptiacus_. Although its size says Gargantuan, it's basically got the stats of a "Huge-and-a-half" sized Theropod since it's a lot lighter than most Gargantuan monsters. I also wanted it to be roughly equivalent combat-wise to my Tyrannosaurus Redux, whose stats I feel are representative of a rather large (40 foot?) example of the genus and hence could also be viewed as midway between Huge and Gargantuan (or _Enormous_ according to my suggested scheme for *intermediary size steps*).

Problem is, 31 Strength is a bit low for a beast of such size. I originally gave it Str 35, but crunching the numbers it did a lot more damage full-attacking than the Tyrannosaurus since it has the two claw attacks. Even with Str 31 it averages a lot more damage if all its attacks hit (7d6+20 versus the Rex's 3d8+18).

I'm considering giving the Rex some kind of "bone-crushing bite" SA that does increased damage to a grappled foe. Probably something like 6d8+24, then I would feel OK with giving old Spiny Str 35.

Another thing I was thinking of was cutting the Spiny's claw attacks to 1d8 damage (probably boosting the Str as well).

Which could make it something like:

Enormous _Tyrannosaurus_: Str 34, 3d8+18 bite (6d8+24 crushing bite?)
Gargantuan _Spinosaurus_: Str 35, 3d6+12 bite, Two 1d8+6 claws. (3d6+2d8+24)

Having decided on it yet.


----------



## hamishspence (Nov 13, 2009)

Remember that just because Spiny is long, doesn't mean he is especially big, bulk-wise- so he can have a fairly low Str- maybe check other gargantuan creatures?

Tyrannosaurs might be a better candidate for Long Reach than other theropods- since they have proportionally longer legs and shorter tails.

The 10 ft reach tyrannosaur could be _Daspletosaurus_, _Tarbosaurus_, and the like, with _Tyrannosaurus rex_ getting a slight reach boost to 15 ft.

Reach boosts might make the differences, allowing you to represent something that is _Enormous_- bigger reach than other _Huge _creatures.

It would run something like:
16-25 ft dinosaur- 10 ft space, 5 ft reach (Large)
25-30 ft dinosaur- 10 ft space, 10 ft reach (larger)
30-35 ft dinosaur- 15 ft space, 10 ft reach (Huge)
35-45 ft dinosaur- 15 ft space, 15 ft reach (enormous)
45-55 ft dinosaur- 20 ft space, 15 ft reach (Gargantuan)
55-65 ft dinosaur- 20 ft space, 20 ft reach (titanic)
65-75 ft dinosaur- 30 ft space, 20 ft reach (Colossal)

etc. This primarily for theropods- not that there are any Colossal ones as far as we know.


Bone-crushing bite- Dragon gave it's _Giganotosaurus_ the ability to inflict 2 points of CON damage with every bite- and this has been used by other homebrewers in statting _T. rex._

(also- _Dilophosaurus_ has the word Megaraptor in its Improved Grab description- but that is easy to fix.)


----------



## Cleon (Nov 14, 2009)

hamishspence said:


> Remember that just because Spiny is long, doesn't mean he is especially big, bulk-wise- so he can have a fairly low Str- maybe check other gargantuan creatures?




No need to remind me, 'cause I already knew.

Str 30 is a bit low for a Gargantuan Animal. e.g. the Gargantuan SRD _Triceratops _would be Str 38, a _Tyrannosaurus _Str 35 (or Str 42 for my Redux version), a Giant Squid Str 34, a Gargantuan Whale Str 35.

Or think of it this way, if you shrunk it down to Medium old Spiny would be Strength 6. Now as I said earlier I cheated a bit and built it as an "Enormous critter" (+20 Str instead of a Gargantuan's +24), so it it based on Str 10, but it still don't feel quite right to me.



hamishspence said:


> Tyrannosaurs might be a better candidate for Long Reach than other theropods- since they have proportionally longer legs and shorter tails.
> 
> The 10 ft reach tyrannosaur could be _Daspletosaurus_, _Tarbosaurus_, and the like, with _Tyrannosaurus rex_ getting a slight reach boost to 15 ft.
> 
> ...




I was wondering how long it would take you to put your preference for switching between Short & Long reaches into my proposed size scheme, I'd noticed it was a pretty neat fit.



hamishspence said:


> Bone-crushing bite- Dragon gave it's _Giganotosaurus_ the ability to inflict 2 points of CON damage with every bite- and this has been used by other homebrewers in statting _T. rex._




Yes, I've seen versions of that around various fora but I'm not that enamored of it. Apart from it being rather fiddly as far as bookkeeping goes, it implies its damaging its opponent's overall health like a poison rather than just straightforward wound-shock. Plus, 2 Con isn't that much, so it would probably be killing its target by hit point loss anyway it just seems easier having a special attack that does more hp damage and cut out the middleman, so to speak.

Although I am wondering about having it do Strength damage, to represent it ripping muscle and crushing bone.



hamishspence said:


> (also- _Dilophosaurus_ has the word Megaraptor in its Improved Grab description- but that is easy to fix.)




EDIT-click-click-click-SAVE

What _Megaraptor_? I don't see no _Megaraptor_, you must have imagined it.


----------



## hamishspence (Nov 15, 2009)

There may be other ways- still- I like it because it makes the size graduation more continuous and less jumpy.

On Con damage as bone-and-muscle crunching- Tome of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords, has a similar effect, for one of the Stone Dragon manuevers. Though Dragon Magazine did it first- much weaker though. The Stone Dragon manuever does 2d6 Con damage- nasty.

The MM2 Gargantuan Megalodon has a Str of 31.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 15, 2009)

hamishspence said:


> There may be other ways- still- I like it because it makes the size graduation more continuous and less jumpy.




Well, you may bring me around eventually.



hamishspence said:


> On Con damage as bone-and-muscle crunching- Tome of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords, has a similar effect, for one of the Stone Dragon manuevers. Though Dragon Magazine did it first- much weaker though. The Stone Dragon manuever does 2d6 Con damage- nasty.




Yes, that's more the level of ability damage I was thinking of, except I still favour Str over Con. Probably give it a Fortitude save (Strength based?) to avoid the ability damage.



hamishspence said:


> The MM2 Gargantuan Megalodon has a Str of 31.




Yes, but sharks are rather pathetic in 3E, a Huge Shark (i.e. a 20 foot long Great White) only has Str 21, which is distinctly unimpressive for a 4000+ pound animal. They also follow the Monstrous Vermin approach of half-valuing the normal size advancement - the Large shark is Str 17, the Medium shark Str 13. If they gave them the full +8 Str per category a Huge shark would have Str 29 and a 2d6+13 bite, which seems more appropriate.


----------



## hamishspence (Nov 16, 2009)

*Strength*

Working out what the "appropriate" Str for a creature is, can be tricky. The closest thing to a guideline seems to be how much a creature can lift without being encumbered.

Given the slimmer build, I think spinosaurs can get away with having a lower Str for their size, than tyrannosaurs.

Remember that at 8 tons it's only half the minimum normal weight for a Gargantuan creature.

On sharks- like crocs, a 20 ft shark is not all that heavy- closer to 1 ton than 2. Possibly the Huge Shark statblock could be adjusted to make the Large shark, as with the crocodiles, at the beginning of the thread.

I see 20 ft as perfect for a Large shark (10 ft space, 5 ft reach, 5 ft tail reach) 35 ft as ideal for a Huge shark (15 ft space, 10 ft reach, 10 ft tail reach)

_Carcharocles_ species, excepting the much larger _Carcharocles megalodon,_ could be Huge. Megalodon, being much chunkier than a great white (the weight estimates for a 70 ft megalodon are around 100 tons) could be from Gargantuan to Colossal.

a 70 ft Colossal megalodon could be 30 ft space, 20 ft  reach, 20 ft tail reach.


----------



## hamishspence (Nov 17, 2009)

The "Length = Space + Reach fore and aft" method, applied to whales:

Estimates for rorqual whales- at the large end of each whale's size range:

Blue Whale: 30 ft head slam, 40 ft Space, 40 ft tail slam
Fin Whale: 30 ft head slam, 30 ft Space, 30 ft tail slam
Pygmy Blue Whale: 20 ft head slam, 30 ft Space, 30 ft tail slam
Sei Whale: 20 ft head slam, 20 ft Space, 20 ft tail slam
Bryde's Whale: 15 ft head slam, 20 ft Space, 15 ft tail slam
Humpback Whale: 15 ft head slam, 20 ft Space, 15 ft tail slam
Eden's Whale: 10 ft head slam, 15 ft Space, 15 ft tail slam
Minke Whale: 10 ft head slam, 15 ft Space, 10 ft tail slam

The other baleen whales:

Bowhead: 20 ft head slam, 30 ft Space, 20 ft tail slam
Right Whale (all regions): 20 ft head slam, 20 ft Space, 20 ft tail slam
Gray Whale: 15 ft head slam, 20 ft Space, 15 ft tail slam
Pygmy Right Whale: 5 ft head slam, 10 ft Space, 5 ft tail slam

At the bottom end, weight stops being important. It doesn't really matter that a whale weighs 3 tonnes- what matters is how long it is, and 16-20 ft long is not really long enough fot a Pygmy Right Whale to be huge.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 17, 2009)

hamishspence said:


> On sharks- like crocs, a 20 ft shark is not all that heavy- closer to 1 ton than 2. Possibly the Huge Shark statblock could be adjusted to make the Large shark, as with the crocodiles, at the beginning of the thread.




Not really. Crocodiles are a good deal slimmer than many species of big sharks. Things like threshers (Alopiidae) are possibly as light or lighter by length, because of their elongated tails, but a tiger shark or great white is several times the weight of a crocodile of the same length. E.g. a 13 foot Great White could weigh 2000 pounds or so, a crocodile that heavy would likely be approaching 18 feet long.

20 feet long is extremely big for a great white, being about the upper range of its size, and I believe a fish that size would weigh 4000 pounds or more, although from the little reading I've done there seem to be so few records of great whites that big it's hard to tell for sure.

Anyhow, adjusting the sizes of the Large and Huge sharks a bit like I did for the Crocs is probably what I'd do. We could call them a Medium / Big / Large shark, and then have a "Giant Shark" for the Huge variety.



hamishspence said:


> I see 20 ft as perfect for a Large shark (10 ft space, 5 ft reach, 5 ft tail reach) 35 ft as ideal for a Huge shark (15 ft space, 10 ft reach, 10 ft tail reach)




Those seem too high. A 500 pound shark is probably only around 10-12 feet long, A run of the mill great white (2000-2500 pound?) is ~13-15 feet. I'd probably compress the SRD stats to make the Medium shark a "Big Medium" and the SRD Huge shark "Very Large" and possibly tweak the Hit Dice a bit, something like:

Big Shark (200lb, 6-8') - 3HD, Str 13
Large Shark (500lb, 10-12') - 5HD, Str 17
Very Large Shark (1500lb, 14-16') - 7HD, Str 21
Huge Shark (4000lb, 20-24') - 10HD, Str 25

They could also do with having a better Con than the SRD gives them - it's significantly behind the standard advancement rate, and I have read a good many anecdotes about some sharks being hard to kill.

A 35 foot long lamniform shark (presumably a _Carcharodon/Carcharocles megadon_) should weigh something of the order of 32,000 pounds - that's more Gargantuan than Huge!



hamishspence said:


> _Carcharocles_ species, excepting the much larger _Carcharocles megalodon,_ could be Huge. Megalodon, being much chunkier than a great white (the weight estimates for a 70 ft megalodon are around 100 tons) could be from Gargantuan to Colossal.
> 
> a 70 ft Colossal megalodon could be 30 ft space, 20 ft  reach, 20 ft tail reach.




I don't think there's any reason to think _C. megalodon_ was "much chunkier" than a great white. There is little fossil evidence apart from teeth and jaws, so there's little solid proof of what form the body takes. Great whites have very robust builds for lamniform sharks, so there's a fair likelihood that _megalodon_ had a somewhat slimmer, more average body, shape than _Carcharodon carcharias_ - although being much bigger it obviously would be heavier.

The 70 foot length estimate sounds a bit optimistic to me (let along the 100 foot+ claims that are floating about). 50 feet is probably a more reliable guess for a _megalodon's_ length.


----------



## hamishspence (Nov 18, 2009)

*Megalodon*

They found vertabrae as well as teeth and jaws, and the teeth discovered are big.

While early estimates got the jaws wrong, thus oversizing it considerably, later ones, based on the largest teeth discovered, do make it pretty hefty.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megalodon

Megalodon had smaller cousins around 30 ft long or so. These were the ones I was thinking of for Huge.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carcharocles_angustidens

On great whites- the lengths given here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_white

are 13-17 ft long for an average to large adult, and 1500-2400 lb.

A 13 ft long Great white should be around 1500 lb, and a 17 ft one 2400 lb. Not all that hefty.

Compare with an orca:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orca

16 ft Orca- 3 tons. 32 ft orca- 11 tons.

This would seem to suggest that (given that orcas are chunkier than great whites) a really big Great White, a la Jaws 2, would not, in fact, be gargantuan- if an orca the same size, is both much heavier, and well short of the Gargantuan weight minimum.

Flawed as Wikipedia can be, a bit of cross-referencing does show that the 100 ton estimates for Megalodon aren't especially "overweight" so to speak.


----------



## hamishspence (Nov 18, 2009)

*Source for chunky megalodon*

Reconstructing Megalodon

Having done a few checks, 100 tons _does_ look a bit overweight- other estimates look more like 60 tons for the 70ft version. 

Still- the general consensus does seem to be that it was chunkier than its smaller cousin.

Also, after a lot of online digging, the high figures for great whites seem to be:

20 ft, 4200 pounds.
21 ft, 4800 pounds.

I'm not sure where people are getting 5000+ pound figures from- maybe ones which have been caught after heavy feeding?

http://www.swordfishingcentral.com/great-white-shark-facts.html

I notice that Wikipedia figures sometimes look like they've been edited, such as "Estimates of up to 2 tons, but a maximum measured weight of 2.2 tons" Which is rather oddly phrased.

The above site had a more logically phrased example: "Estimates of up to 2 tons, but a maximum measured weight of 1.75 tons"

Also- the length to weight ratios seem to vary a lot (regional differences?) The largest well authenticated one I've found details of, was the Alf Dean 1959 specimen- 16' 10", 2664 lb. Yet specimens of comparable length in other places are claimed to be 4000 lb or more.

Comparing the Alf Dean Specimen to Yai, the heaviest crocodile in captivity, puts Yai as longer, but not by much- Yai was fairly close in weight in 1989 (1114 kg or 2465 lb) when the Guinness Book of Records accepted the record, but was 19' 8".


----------



## hamishspence (Nov 19, 2009)

*On comparing Great Whites to megalodons*

Great whites seem to vary a lot in proportions.

The 1959 Alf Dean specimen (16.8333 ft, 2664 lb)

appears to be much slimmer than than 1986 California specimen (17.6 ft, 4140 lb):

http://www.elasmo-research.org/education/white_shark/overview.htm

Scaling from the Alf Dean specimen produces a 35 ft shark that would weigh around 11.97 short tons.
But scaling from the 1986 California specimen produces a weight of 16.28 short tons for a 35 ft shark.

And 53.39 short tons for a 52 ft megalodon- which is almost exactly what the heavyweight estimates for a 52 ft megalodon give.

So, one could say, that megalodon is not chunky compared to a white shark- if it is one of the _exceedingly chunky_ California white sharks.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 20, 2009)

hamishspence said:


> Megalodon had smaller cousins around 30 ft long or so. These were the ones I was thinking of for Huge.




Still seems a bit on the big side for a "basic" Huge shark, so I'll stick to my preference for around 20 feet and 4000 pounds for such a beast.

One problem to bear in mind is that many of the weights quoted for large animals are likely to be _*estimates*_. Unless you have a set of industrial-grade scales handy, it's exceedingly difficult to weigh animals as large as great whites or orcas.



hamishspence said:


> A 13 ft long Great white should be around 1500 lb, and a 17 ft one 2400 lb. Not all that hefty.
> 
> Compare with an orca:
> 
> ...




Some of those figures seem a little dubious. From my limited reading 3 tons (metric) is a reasonably average weight for a female orca of about 6 metres (20 feet) long, and its quite possible to have 2400 pound white shark 15-16 feet long.

While I certainly think orcas are somewhat stockier than great whites, my suspicion is that there's some overlap in sizes & weights - i.e. some chunky 16 foot Great White probably weigh the same as slim 16 foot orcas.

Similarly a 32 foot 11 ton Orca is not that far off from your projected 35 foot 11.97 (short) ton "Alf Dean" scale Great White. It would appear to me that such a big orca would equate to an individual with a lot of HD Advancement in 3E D&D terms. The SRD orca advances to Gargantuan, so I would not feel many pangs of guilt making a shark of similar size Gargantuan as well.

As for Gargantuan sharks, obviously that's unrealistic for any living species with the exception of whale sharks (and even that would be an "Advanced" specimen in 3E terms, with an average _Rhincodon typus_ being Huge sized and with fewer Hit Dice). I'd probably start Gargantuan sharks somewhere around a nice round 40 feet in length.

Anyhow, I'll probably post a few new dinosaurs soon, so we can start arguing about something else.


----------



## hamishspence (Nov 20, 2009)

*weighing*

Sharks caught in fishing contests, even big ones, do, I think, get weighed pretty accurately- possibly a winch built for the purpose?

That said, 4000 pounds (and anything from 17 to 21 ft long) is pretty reasonable for a Huge animal- it just gives it a rather short reach. Which could possibly be made up for, by removing either tail slap or bite (a whale shark wouldn't try and bite, a Great White wouldn't do tail slaps)

The figures usually given for the biggest whale shark caught (free-swimming specimens have been reported as rather bigger) was 41 ft long and estimated 15 tons. A good place to start Gargantuan at.

One thing I have noticed about WoTC creatures- hit dices doesn't correspond all that well to weight. A 12 HD Gargantuan sperm whale-shaped creature, with a length given as 60 ft (Elsewhale, in Planar Handbook), seems decidedly low, given just how heavy a sperm whale actually is.

Compare to an 18 HD _T. rex_.

Same applies to Str- if Str 35 is normal for a Gargantuan sperm whale, a Huge dinosaur should have a much lower Str. Or a Gargantuan one, if it's weight is fairly close to the Huge dinosaur. Or just boost the Str of the whale, if it is under-strength.

If I was to stat out a 52 ft long, 47 tonne Gargantuan megalodon, I'd give it rather more than MM2's 20 HD. It is one big beast.

And I might consider putting Colossal as the upper limit on its size advancement.

(The 52 ft shark was based on a largest tooth size of 6.61 inches. The largest megalodon tooth ever discovered seems to be around 7.62 inches, or 7 and 5/8 inches).

Of course, given that we're chucking out the basic rules for Spinosaurus (50 ft long, but quite a bit less than 32 ft long from nose to base of tail, and only 9 tons in weight) maybe we could have a general rule that macropredators can be smaller and lighter, within the same size category, than other creatures?

If a 32 ft Orca is Gargantuan, maybe, for really chunky, fish-shaped creatures, the rule is length to tip of tail?

Similarly, a 16 ft Orca would be Huge.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 21, 2009)

hamishspence said:


> Sharks caught in fishing contests, even big ones, do, I think, get weighed pretty accurately- possibly a winch built for the purpose?
> 
> That said, 4000 pounds (and anything from 17 to 21 ft long) is pretty reasonable for a Huge animal- it just gives it a rather short reach. Which could possibly be made up for, by removing either tail slap or bite (a whale shark wouldn't try and bite, a Great White wouldn't do tail slaps)
> 
> The figures usually given for the biggest whale shark caught (free-swimming specimens have been reported as rather bigger) was 41 ft long and estimated 15 tons. A good place to start Gargantuan at.




Quite, that fits in with my proposed rule-of-thumb of a 20 foot Huge shark, 40 foot Gargantuan shark, which assumes it's a fairly thick-bodied shark.

Speaking of thick bodied sharks, that reconstruction of megalodon as a '*monster shark*' with an oversized head and jaws you linked to was quite interesting. I'm wondering whether the slimmer estimates I came across wandering around the 'net were based on the "*Giant Sandtiger*" model, since sandtiger-type lamniform sharks are more slender than great whites, as a rule.



hamishspence said:


> One thing I have noticed about WoTC creatures- hit dices doesn't correspond all that well to weight. A 12 HD Gargantuan sperm whale-shaped creature, with a length given as 60 ft (Elsewhale, in Planar Handbook), seems decidedly low, given just how heavy a sperm whale actually is.




No disagreement there, they're all over the place. Although in the case of the Elsewhale at least it's consistent with the SRD sperm whale (the cachalot), which has the same HD and size.

I suspect that particular problem was caused by the 2nd edition AD&D monster manual's whale entry, which has common whales as Gargantuan creatures with 12-35 HD. If you read the small print it implies the 12 HD variety is a calf as little as 10 feet long, so presumably a "typical" 50-60 foot whale is more in the middle (24 HD?).



hamishspence said:


> If I was to stat out a 52 ft long, 47 tonne Gargantuan megalodon, I'd give it rather more than MM2's 20 HD. It is one big beast.




You could start by using a SRD Dire Shark advanced to Gargantuan size - 33 HD and a 3d8+15 bite. That'd still leaves it with a measly 31 Strength.



hamishspence said:


> And I might consider putting Colossal as the upper limit on its size advancement.




Sure, why not. If we can't have huge, ship-eating sharks in a fantasy game, I don't know what's the world coming to!



hamishspence said:


> If a 32 ft Orca is Gargantuan, maybe, for really chunky, fish-shaped creatures, the rule is length to tip of tail?
> 
> Similarly, a 16 ft Orca would be Huge.




Yes, that'd work. Assuming a 20 foot orca is 3-3.5 tons and the 16 foot one has identical proportions it would weigh 3440-4014 lbs (long tons) or 3383-3946 (metric tonnes), which is pretty close to the Large/Huge boundary.


----------



## hamishspence (Nov 22, 2009)

*animal sizes*

So, 

Orcas can be 16 ft Huge, 32 ft Gargantuan,
Great Whites 14-15 ft Large, 18-20 ft Huge
Megalodons 52 ft Gargantuan, 75 ft Colossal
Sperm whales 35-60 ft Gargantuan, 70-80 ft Colossal? 

These seem like good baselines.

(Though, for some reason, the Huge orca is described as 30 ft long in MM 3.5)

Come to think of it- instead of just going with "dire shark" to represent generic Huge and Gargantuan prehistoric sharks, we could pick out some of the more interesting ones. Dragon 318 had stats for _Helicoprion,_ a shark with a whorl-like lower jaw. And there are possibily others.

_Such as Cretoxyrhina,_ sometimes called "the Ginsu Shark", which was present in the late Cretaceous,, and was a bit larger than a Great White. Or _Isurus hastalis, _the broad-toothed mako, another big shark, believed to be ancestral to the Great White.

And even prehistoric Great Whites themselves, were rather bigger than any present day specimen- the largest present-day great White teeth appear to be around 2.75 inches long, whereas fossil Greath White teeth max out at 3.5 inches.


----------



## hamishspence (Nov 24, 2009)

*shark relationships*

Interestingly, _Otodus_ isn't aways classed as a relative of the sandtiger. Here, it is described as ancestral to the porbeagle- and great whites and megalodons, while not that closely related, are still closer related than they are to the porbeagle:

Great White Shark : Relatives, Living & Fossil

I'm not sure how well supported this view is, but it does place megalodon as within Lamnidae, rather than as closer related to the sand tiger shark (since Lamnidae includes the Great White, the porbeagle, their most recent common ancestor, and all its descendants.

Even if _Otodus_ and _Carcharocles megalodon_ are related, and both closer related to sand sharks than "mackerel sharks" (Lamnidae), that doesn't mean that they would have looked like sand sharks:

http://www.megalodonexpeditions.com/risefall.htm


----------



## Cleon (Nov 24, 2009)

hamishspence said:


> So,
> 
> Orcas can be 16 ft Huge, 32 ft Gargantuan,
> Great Whites 14-15 ft Large, 18-20 ft Huge
> ...




Look fine to me, although I would probably widen the Megs to something like 40-75 ft Gargantuan, 75-100 ft Colossal.



hamishspence said:


> Come to think of it- instead of just going with "dire shark" to represent generic Huge and Gargantuan prehistoric sharks, we could pick out some of the more interesting ones. Dragon 318 had stats for _Helicoprion,_ a shark with a whorl-like lower jaw. And there are possibily others.
> 
> _Such as Cretoxyrhina,_ sometimes called "the Ginsu Shark", which was present in the late Cretaceous,, and was a bit larger than a Great White. Or _Isurus hastalis, _the broad-toothed mako, another big shark, believed to be ancestral to the Great White.




As far as its 3rd edition D&D stats go _Cretoxyrhina_ would surely be nigh identical to a Great White. At best it's only a bit bigger.


----------



## hamishspence (Nov 24, 2009)

*Ginsu shark*

Probably- baseline Dire Shark might do.

I'm not sure how closely related megalodon was to the lamnids- here:

Lamniformes

it's group is given as Otodontidae, and placed just below the lamnid sharks.

On the other hand, this tree also places Basking sharks right at the bottom, whereas the one on elasmo-research.org puts them at the top, above thresher sharks but below lamnids. 

And, annoyingly, doesn't show where otodontids are placed.

40 ft minimum for a just-turned-adult megalodon makes sense, and about 75 ft for a megalodon of the largest size, just at the bare minimum for Colossal, and built according to the extra-bulky Gottfried model, also works.

on Hit Dice: given the value of 20 HD for a Gargantuan Spinosaurus, I'd probably use this for smaller Gargantuan creatures:

Gargantuan Orca- 32 ft long, 20 HD
Gargantuan Sperm Whale (female) 35 ft long, 20 HD
Gargantuan Sperm Whale (male) 52 ft long, 30 HD
Colossal Sperm Whale (such as the one that sunk the Essex) 40 HD

Gargantuan megalodon (young adult) 40 ft long, 20 HD
Gargantuan megalodon (adult) 52 ft long, 30 HD
Colossal megalodon (based on largest teeth known) 75 ft, 40 HD.

Do these seem about right?


----------



## Cleon (Nov 26, 2009)

hamishspence said:


> on Hit Dice: given the value of 20 HD for a Gargantuan Spinosaurus, I'd probably use this for smaller Gargantuan creatures:
> 
> Gargantuan Orca- 32 ft long, 20 HD
> Gargantuan Sperm Whale (female) 35 ft long, 20 HD
> ...




Those Hit Dice look OK to me, or at least they're a better fit to 3E monster HD than giving a Gargantuan sperm whale 12 HD!

Although I'd rather have sperm whales go up in dozens of Hit Dice and sharks in tens, partially because I suspect cetaceans outperform fish of the same size (due to their higher metabolism), and partly just to introduce a bit of variety.

e.g.:
*Huge *(half-grown) sperm whale - 12 HD
_Enormous _(*Huge*-and-a-half young adult) sperm whale - 18 HD
*Gargantuan *(adult) sperm whale - 24 HD
_Enormous _(*Gargantuan*-and-a-half elder bull) sperm whale - 36 HD
*Colossal *(Moby Dick) sperm whale - 48 HD

And a Megadon could go
*Huge *(half-grown)  - 10 HD
_Enormous _(*Huge*-and-a-half young adult) - 15 HD
*Gargantuan *(adult) - 20 HD
_Enormous _(*Gargantuan*-and-a-half elder) - 30 HD
*Colossal *(Megashark!)  - 40 HD


----------



## hamishspence (Nov 26, 2009)

Cleon said:


> *Huge *(half-grown) sperm whale - 12 HD
> _Enormous _(*Huge*-and-a-half young adult) sperm whale - 18 HD
> *Gargantuan *(adult) sperm whale - 24 HD
> _Enormous _(*Gargantuan*-and-a-half elder bull) sperm whale - 36 HD
> ...




I like. However, under this system, an adult male orca might be closer to Huge-and-a-half, than Gargantuan.

It might work well for other cetaceans- possibly with an extension to Colossal for the biggest blue whales- 60 HD "Colossal+"

Makes for an interesting Animal Companion in a high level game.

3.5 MM does suggest that Colossal creatures have a minimum of 12 HD, but in practice, almost nothing that big has HD that low. Even Gargantuan was seriously stretching it.

I'm guessing the adult female sperm whale (Wikipedia lists it as typically 35 ft long and 15 tonnes) marks the beginning of Gargantuan- and would have 24 HD under this system.

Also- after checking the Pathfinder monster descriptions, 

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/monsterIndex.html

I've noticed that their creatures tend to be a bit closer to the normal size and weights, than some of the D&D 3.5 MM1 and MM2 animals.

For example Orcas are listed as between 15 and 25 ft long.

And most of the Dire Animals are described based on real ones- dire bear is short-faced bear, Dire Croc is Sarcosuchus, etc.

(on the other hand, their Large croc is 1400 pounds and 14 ft long- a bit on the heavy side for a 14 ft croc).


----------



## hamishspence (Nov 27, 2009)

*Robust vs Gracile*

Come to think of it, the Robust advancement (multiples of 6) vs the Gracile advancement (multiples of 5) can be used to distinguish the carnosaurs, and the sauropods, as well:

Diplodocids- gracile- Diplodocus as a 15 HD Huge-and-a-half creature, and so on

Brachiosaurs/titanosaurs/etc- robust- Apatosaurus/Brachiosaurus as 24 HD Gargantuan creature, and so on

Tyrannosaurus- robust 18 HD Huge-and-a-half
Spinosaurus- gracile 20 HD Gargantuan
Allosaurus/Albertosaurus- gracile 10 HD Huge
Daspletosaurus- robust 12 HD Huge

It works pretty well. and the T. rex, Allosaurus, and Spinosaurus all end up with the WoTC values for their Hit Dice.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 28, 2009)

hamishspence said:


> Come to think of it, the Robust advancement (multiples of 6) vs the Gracile advancement (multiples of 5) can be used to distinguish the carnosaurs, and the sauropods, as well:
> 
> Diplodocids- gracile- Diplodocus as a 15 HD Huge-and-a-half creature, and so on
> 
> Brachiosaurs/titanosaurs/etc- robust- Apatosaurus/Brachiosaurus as 24 HD Gargantuan creature, and so on




I'd rather not do it that way for the Sauropods since I don't feel there's that much difference in their physiology and it seems a lot of extra work separating them into gracile and robust stat blocks. Not to mention that my current take on sauropods doesn't follow the standard "double HD each size step" progression, but uses something a bit more gradual.

I would use it for gracile/robust theropods though. Come to think of it, I already do - my current stats give a standard _Tyrannosaurus _18 HD, a Big _Allosaurus _15 HD. That was just because I followed D&D precedent rather than some cunning 5/6 HD progression scheme, though.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 28, 2009)

hamishspence said:


> I like. However, under this system, an adult male orca might be closer to Huge-and-a-half, than Gargantuan.




Well I agree that Gargantuan isn't appropriate for a realistic Orca Of Unusual Size, but I was thinking 12 HD Huge would fit an average adult male orca. An average sperm whale is 40-50 feet long, which is Gargantuan 24HD under this scheme, an average orca is about half that size (20-25 feet, as big as a half-grown sperm whale calf). Huge-and-a-half would be appropriate for a very large bull orca (30-33 feet).

Using our 12-36HD model for sperm whales, I was thinking a 9HD orca would be a subadults, an average adult would have 12 HD, an enormous male 18HD and the "Moby Dicks" of the orca world would be Gargantuan whales with 24-27 HD.



hamishspence said:


> I'm guessing the adult female sperm whale (Wikipedia lists it as typically 35 ft long and 15 tonnes) marks the beginning of Gargantuan- and would have 24 HD under this system.




Looking at the sizes, it's obvious that the weights will be a bit higher than is standard for creatures of that size but I think we can get away with that. Cetaceans are often massive for their lengths, and D&D often doesn't give weights for big marine animals anyway.



hamishspence said:


> Also- after checking the Pathfinder monster descriptions,
> 
> Monster Index
> 
> ...




Hmm, that does seem a _little_ heavy. From the reading I've done, a particularly big crocodile is somewhere around 16 feet long and 1500-2000 pounds. Scaling that down to 14 feet (assuming it follows a cube-root relationship) and you'd get 1000-1340 pounds, so it looks like 1400 pounds is in the upper range of croc bodyweights.

I'd just round it up to 15 feet and 1500 pounds, that's close enough as far as I'm concerned.

If you'll pardon me shilling my *Building a Better Crocodile* post, I was thinking their lengths & weights would go something like this...

*Crocodile Redux* - 3 HD, 11-12 feet, 500 pounds
*Large Crocodile* - 7 HD, 15 feet, 1500 pounds
*Giant Crocodile* - 13 HD, 30 feet, 12000 pounds 

It's not a great fit to my current size schema. The standard crocodile in particular is too big for its place in the progression. We may want to trim its size and weight a bit and fit the rest into a smoother progression, maybe something like...

*Medium Crocodile* - 2 HD, 7 feet, 125 pounds
*Big* *Crocodile *(*Standard Redux*) - 3 HD, 10 feet, 400 pounds
*Large Crocodile* - 5 HD, 14 feet, 1000 pounds
*Very Large Crocodile (Large Redux) *- 7 HD, 20 feet, 3000 pounds
*Huge Crocodile *- 10 HD, 30 feet, 12000 pounds
*Enormous **Crocodile* *(Giant Redux) *- 13 HD, 40 feet, 25000 pounds
*Gargantuan Crocodile* - 20 HD, 60 feet, 75000 pounds


----------



## Cleon (Nov 28, 2009)

hamishspence said:


> I like. However, under this system, an adult male orca might be closer to Huge-and-a-half, than Gargantuan.
> 
> It might work well for other cetaceans- possibly with an extension to Colossal for the biggest blue whales- 60 HD "Colossal+"
> 
> Makes for an interesting Animal Companion in a high level game.




By the way, by s curious serendipity when I first read this post I'd just come across *this newspaper report* about orcas hunting lamniform sharks.

Not only does this demonstrate that our "Orca Redux" definitely have to be tougher than regular sharks, the use of "karate chops" with their tails and exploiting the weaknesses of the shark's anatomy to stun them rather reminded me of a certain D&D character class, which led me to stat the following...


----------



## Cleon (Nov 28, 2009)

*Building a Better Killer Whale*

*Karate Killer Whale*
*Awakened Orca 2nd level Monk*
Huge Magical Beast
*Hit Dice:* 11d10+2d8+65 (134 hp)
*Initiative:* +3
*Speed:* Swim 50 ft. (10 squares)
*Armor Class:* 19 (–2 size, +3 Dex, +2 Wisdom, +6 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 16
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +12/+28
*Attack:* Bite +18 melee (2d6+12) or unarmed strike +18 melee (2d6+8)
*Full Attack:* Bite +12 melee (2d6+12) or unarmed strike +18/+13/+8 melee (2d6+8) or flurry of blows +16/+16/+11/+6 melee (2d6+8)
*Space/Reach:* 15 ft./10 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Flurry of blows, unarmed strike
*Special Qualities:* Blindsight 120 ft., evasion, hold breath, low-light vision
*Saves:* Fort +14, Ref +13, Will +10
*Abilities:* Str 27, Dex 16, Con 21, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8
*Skills:* Listen +20* (_+16 without blindsight_), Spot +20* (_+16 without blindsight_), Swim +16, Tumble +11
*Feats:* Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows *(B)*, Endurance, Iron Will, Power Attack, Run, Stunning Fist *(B) [*_Fort DC 18_*]*
*Environment:* Cold aquatic
*Organization:* Solitary or pod (6–11)
*Challenge Rating:* 8
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Usually lawful neutral
*Advancement:* 12–15 HD (Huge); 16–29 HD (Gargantuan)
*Level Adjustment:* —

Karate killer whales are sapient orcas, given intelligence by the druid's _awaken_ spell, many of whom have gained levels in character classes. These creatures have a sophisticated culture based around self-discipline, survival and reverence towards nature. Most karate killer whales are monks, the above being a typical example, but a few become druids. These orca druids play a honoured and vital role in karate killer whale society, because without high-level monks to case _awaken_ on their newborn calves, karate killer whale civilization would be reduced to beasts in a generation.

These creatures show no hostility towards most other races, but show little interest in helping non-orcas either. They have a particular dislike of sahuagin, due to the latter's destructive and chaotic nature, and extend this antipathy to the sea devils allies the sharks. Karate killer whales will go to considerable length to kill and each sahuagin and giant sharks.

A typical karate killer whale about 30 feet long. They eat fish, squid, seals, and other whales.

Karate killer whale speak Aquan.

*Combat*
 Karate killer whales are cunning and ferocious fighters who often make well-coordinated group attacks. They usually close into melee as fast as possible, then use Stunning Fist strikes to render their foes helpless while barraging them with a torrent of terrible blows from their jaws and tail-flukes. If the foe is too powerful for a conventional approach they can be surprisingly devious. 

*Blindsight (Ex):* A killer whale can “see” by emitting high-frequency sounds, inaudible to most other creatures, that allow them to locate objects and creatures within 120 feet. A silence spell negates this and forces the whale to rely on its vision, which is approximately as good as a human’s.

*Evasion (Ex):* If a karate killer whale makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, it takes no damage instead. Evasion can be used only if the whale is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless karate killer whale does not gain the benefit of evasion.

*Hold Breath (Ex):* A killer whale can hold its breath for a number of rounds equal to 8 × its Constitution score before it risks drowning.

*Skills
*A whale has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.

*A whale has a +4 racial bonus on Spot and Listen checks. These bonuses are lost if its blindsight is negated.


----------



## hamishspence (Nov 28, 2009)

I'd have gone with 15 HD as the midpoint between 10HD Huge and 20HD Gargantuan for crocs, but otherwise, its good- smaller _Deinosuchus_ work for 30 ft croc, largest specimens of _Deinosuchus_, _Purussaurus _(giant caiman)_, _and _Sarcosuchus_ all work well as 40 ft crocs.

Sauropods currently follow 24 HD Gargantuan, 48 HD colossal- since Colossal is supposed to start at 128 short tons, this may be a bit on the high side for diplodocid sauropods.

Still, it can work- given the fact that despite being slim, Huge diplodocids are still heavier on average than Huge theropods. 

My current best guess for species for each category:

_Diplodocids_
Huge: 12 HD- _Cetiosauriscus_
Huge-and-a-half: 18 HD- _Diplodocus carnegii_
Gargantuan: 24 HD- _Diplodocus hallorum_
Gargantuan-and-a-half: 36 HD- _Supersaurus, _115 ft _Mammenchisaurus_
Colossal: 48 HD-_ Amphicoelias_

_Macronarians, heavily built or primitive sauropods_
Huge: 12 HD- _Saltasaurus_
Huge-and-a-half: 18 HD- _Cetiosaurus, Euhelopus, Apatosaurus_
Gargantuan: 24 HD- _Barapasaurus, Brachiosaurus, Giraffatitan_
Gargantuan-and-a-half: 36 HD- _Sauroposeidon, Paralititan_
Colossal: 48 HD- _Bruhathkyosaurus, Argentinosaurus_

This scheme seems to work OK- uses your size scaling system up to a point- but places Huge-and-a-half creatures midway between Huge and Gargantuan.

the Chunky Build system works quite well for whales- the largest reported sperm whales, the bowhead whales, and fin whales, all qualify as Colossal (being all comparable to _Argentinosaurus_ in weight or higher, and the largest blue whales can be Colossal-and-a-half, with 60 HD.

For whales, I'd agree with trimming down the orca size a bit.

Average males and large-ish females work as 12 HD creatures, the males can be 18 HD creatures (huge-and-a-half- the _T. rex_ of the sea.)

And the karate-killer whales sounds like a fun campaign concept- maybe the whale's tail slap should be more dangerous than the MM makes it.


----------



## hamishspence (Nov 28, 2009)

For "gracile creatures" in general, like crocs, slim theropods, etc, multiples of 5 work for the larger sizes, and midpoints (rounding down) are just about passable for the smaller ones.

2 HD: Medium
3 HD: Medium-and-a-half
5 HD: Large
7 HD: Large-and-a-half
10 HD: Huge
15 HD: Huge-and-a-half
20 HD: Gargantuan
30 HD: Gargantuan-and-a-half
40 HD: Colossal

Dromaeosaurs, being, in some cases, rather more heavily built than most theropods of their size (Utahraptor, what little there is of it, has massive leg bones, for example) might actually follow the Robust scale:

1 HD- Small
2 HD- Small-and-a-half (_Velociraptor_)
3 HD- Medium
4 HD- Medium-and-a-half (_Deinonychus_)
6 HD- Large
8 HD- Large-and-a-half (_Utahraptor_, A_chillobaator_)
12 HD- Huge
18 HD- Huge-and-a-half
etc.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 28, 2009)

hamishspence said:


> I'd have gone with 15 HD as the midpoint between 10HD Huge and 20HD Gargantuan for crocs, but otherwise, its good- smaller _Deinosuchus_ work for 30 ft croc, largest specimens of _Deinosuchus_, _Purussaurus _(giant caiman)_, _and _Sarcosuchus_ all work well as 40 ft crocs.
> 
> Sauropods currently follow 24 HD Gargantuan, 48 HD colossal- since Colossal is supposed to start at 128 short tons, this may be a bit on the high side for diplodocid sauropods.
> 
> ...




Well as I mentioned before, my current take on Sauropods uses a non-standard HD progression, where the HD size advancement slows down a bit at the larger sizes.

Small 2 HD
Medium 4 HD
Large 8 HD
Huge 16 HD
Gargantuan 25 HD
Colossal 36 HD
(Maximum) 48 HD

Hmm, I'm tempted to change the 48 HD version to a "Colossal plus" and add a few intermediaries:

* Small* - 2 HD, Str 13
_Little - 3 HD, Str 15_
*Medium - *4 HD, Str 17
_Big__ - 6 HD, Str 19
_*Large *- 8 HD, Str 21
_Very Large - 12 HD, Str 25
_*Huge *- 16 HD, Str 29
_Enormous - 20 HD - Str 33
_*Gargantuan - *25 HD, Str 37
_Titanic - 30 HD, Str 41_
*Colossal *- 36 HD, Str 45
_(Maximum) - 48 HD, Str 49_



hamishspence said:


> And the karate-killer whales sounds like a fun campaign concept- maybe the whale's tail slap should be more dangerous than the MM makes it.




Well making the tail more dangerous than the MM orca wouldn't be very difficult, since the SRD version doesn't even have a tail-slap attack.

Although you'd want a higher level version to make it _really _dangerous. Say a Gargantuan (16 HD magical beast) 8th level monk with Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike) - that'd be 6d8+Str damage per unarmed blow, with lawful and magic ki strike. Such a black-belt orca would have a +22 BAB, so full-attacks at +30/+25/+20/+15 (or +29/+29/+24/+19/+14 with flurry of blows) assuming it has the average of 33 strength and no other attack bonuses - although it would probably have a better Strength through a combination of the elite character array, HD advancement,  magical items and various feats and possibly _magic fang_ type spell boosts from allies.

Not to mention it can have three two Epic Feats from its 24 Hit Dice.

Hmm, now I'll have to stat out a Black-Belt Killer Whale to complement a Orca Abbot with enough levels in Druid to cast _awaken_ on its kinfolk.


----------



## hamishspence (Nov 29, 2009)

Cleon said:


> *Small* - 2 HD, Str 13
> _Little - 3 HD, Str 15_
> *Medium - *4 HD, Str 17
> _Big__ - 6 HD, Str 19_
> ...




This one looks pretty good for exceptionally robust/formidable animals- sauropods, whales, etc.

Maybe it could be used for chunky theropods- a T. rex with 20 HD?
Medium and Large sizes match those of the errataed _Deinonychus_ and _Utahraptor (_called_ Megaraptor)_.

The gap between Large and Huge is 8 HD, between Huge and Gargantuan is 9 HD, between Gargantuan and Colossal is 11 HD and between Colossal and (Maximum) is 12 HD- 

maybe (Maximum) can be Colossal+, with a larger base size (40 ft), and a Str jump to match. And there could be an intermediate size between the two at 42 HD, similar to _Enormous, Very Large, Titanic_, etc.

Most sauropods and whales would max-out at around 36 HD, with only the bigger blue whales being 48 HD and having a 40 ft base. 

And that 36 HD would correspond to a bit lower weight than what the MM gives for Colossal- 80-100 tons, rather than 125 tons, if we want _Argentinosaurus_ to be included.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 29, 2009)

hamishspence said:


> This one looks pretty good for exceptionally robust/formidable animals- sauropods, whales, etc.
> 
> Maybe it could be used for chunky theropods- a T. rex with 20 HD?
> Medium and Large sizes match those of the errataed _Deinonychus_ and _Utahraptor (_called_ Megaraptor)_.
> ...




My original size schema ended at "Epic" for creatures with a 50 foot base like Devastation Vermin, with "Super-Colossal" as the intermediary step, if we add that in it could go something like.

*Small* - 2 HD, Str 13, 5 foot space
_Little - 3 HD, Str 15
_*Medium - *4 HD, Str 17, 5 foot space
_Big - 6 HD, Str 19
_*Large *- 8 HD, Str 21, 10 foot space
_Very Large - 12 HD, Str 25
_*Huge *- 16 HD, Str 29, 15 foot space
_Enormous - 20 HD - Str 33
_*Gargantuan - *25 HD, Str 37, 20 foot space
_Titanic - 30 HD, Str 41
_*Colossal *- 36 HD, Str 45, 30 foot space
_Super-Colossal - 42 HD, Str 49 _(40 foot space?)*
Epic *- 48 HD, Str 53 (50 foot space?)


----------



## Cleon (Nov 29, 2009)

Cleon said:


> Hmm, now I'll have to stat out a Black-Belt Killer Whale to complement a Orca Abbot with enough levels in Druid to cast _awaken_ on its kinfolk.




Well I wasn't able to resist the urge to stat up a couple of higher-level awakened orcas, so here they are. I haven't bothered giving them magical equipment or listing all their SA and SQs under Combat.

EDIT: By the way, I used the SRD version of the various animals for this version, rather than an "improved" version. e.g. the abbot's _Elasmosaurus_ animal companion is straight out of the MM, including its nigh-useless Toughness feats.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 29, 2009)

*Elite Karate Killer Whales*

*Karate Orca Abbot*
*Awakened Elite Orca **10th level Druid**, **4th level Monk*
Huge Magical Beast
*Hit Dice:* 11d10+14d8+175 (298 hp)
*Initiative:* +3
*Speed:* Swim 60 ft. (12 squares)
*Armor Class:* 23 (–2 size, +3 Dex, +6 Wisdom, +6 natural), touch 17, flat-footed 20
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +21/+36
*Attack:* Bite +26 melee (2d6+10) or unarmed strike +26 melee (3d6+7)
*Full Attack:* Bite +26 melee (2d6+10) or unarmed strike +26/+21/+16/+11 melee (3d6+7) or flurry of blows +25/+25/+20/+15/+10 melee (3d6+7)
*Space/Reach:* 15 ft./10 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Flurry of blows, ki strike (magic), spells, unarmed strike, wild shape (4/day, Large)
*Special Qualities:* Animal companion, blindsight 120 ft., evasion, hold breath, low-light vision, nature sense, resist nature's lure [_+4 saves vs Fey_], slow fall 20 feet, still mind, trackless step, venom immunity, wild empathy, woodland stride
*Saves:* Fort +25, Ref +19, Will +22 [+24 vs enchantments]
*Abilities:* Str 24, Dex 16, Con 24, Int 14, Wis 22, Cha 8
*Skills:* Concentration +20, Heal +16, Jump +24, Knowledge (nature) +18, Listen +31* (_+27 without blindsight_), Spellcraft +17, Spot +31* (_+27 without blindsight_), Survival +15, Tumble +19, Swim +29
*Feats:* Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows *(B)*, Eschew Materials, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Natural Spell, Run, Spell Focus (Transmutation), Spell Penetration, Stunning Fist *(B)* *[*_Fort DC 28_*]*
*Epic Feats:* Tenacious Magic (_baleful polymorph_)
*Environment:* Cold aquatic
*Organization:* Solitary or pod (6–11)
*Challenge Rating:* 15
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always lawful neutral
*Advancement:* 12–15 HD (Huge); 16–29 HD (Gargantuan)
*Level Adjustment:* —

*Combat*

*Animal Companion (Ex):* The karate orca abbot has an _Elasmosaurus_ as an animal companion:
 *Elasmosaurus* (Huge Animal; *Hit Dice* 12d8+78 (132 hp); *Init* +2; *Spd* 20 ft., swim 50 ft.; *Space/Reach* 15 ft./10 ft.; *AC* 15 (-2 size, +2 Dex, +5 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 13; *BAB/Grapple* +8/+24; *Attack* Bite +14 melee (2d8+12); *Full Attack* Bite +14 melee (2d8+12); *SA* —; *SQ* Evasion, link, share spells, low-light vision, scent; *Alignment* Always neutral; *Saves* Fort +16, Ref +10, Will +5; *Abilities* Str 27, Dex 15, Con 22, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 9; *Feats:* Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Great Fortitude, Toughness (2); *Skills:* Hide -4* (_+4 in water_), Listen +5, Spot +10, Swim +16; *Bonus Tricks* 2)​ *Spells (Sp):* 6/5/5/4/4/3, Caster level 10, DC 16 plus spell level (17+level for Transformation spells). 
*0 level* — _guidance×2, resistance×2, detect magic, flare_
*1st level* — _charm animal, cure light wounds, entangle, longstrider, speak with animals_
*2nd level* — _hold animal, barkskin, lesser restoration, owl's wisdom, warp wood_
*3rd level* —_greater magic fang, neutralize poison, protection from energy, water breathing_
*4th level* — _air walk_, _control water, dispel magic, freedom of movement_
*5th level* — _baleful polymorph _(DC22)_, call lightning storm, stoneskin_

*Wild Shape (Su):* This karate orca abbot prefers to wild shape into a *Sea Eagle* or *Squid* for scouting, a *Large Shark* for spying on Sahuagin, or a *Giant Octopus* for combat.
*Sea Eagle Form* (Small Magical Beast; *Hit Dice* 25 (298 hp); *Init* +3; *Spd* 20 ft., fly 90 ft. (average); *Space/Reach* 5 ft./5 ft. *AC* 21 (+1 size, +3 Dex, +6 Wisdom, +1 natural), touch 20, flat-footed 18; *BAB*/*Grapple* +21/+16; *Attack* Talons +21 melee (1d4-1) or unarmed strike +21 melee (1d6-1); *Full Attack* 2 talons +21 melee (1d4-1) and bite +16 melee (1d4-1); or unarmed strike +21/+16/+11/+6 melee (1d6-1); or flurry of blows +20/+20/+15/+10/+5 melee (1d6-1); *SA* Flurry of blows, ki strike (magic), spells, unarmed strike, wild shape (4/day, Large); *SQ* Animal companion, blindsight 120 ft., evasion, hold breath, low-light vision, nature sense, resist nature's lure [_+4 saves vs Fey_], slow fall 20 feet, still mind, trackless step, venom immunity, wild empathy, woodland stride; *Saves* Fort +21, Ref +19, Will +22 [+24 vs enchantments]; *Abilities* Str 8, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 22, Cha 8; *Feats:* Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows *(B)*, Spell Focus (Transmutation), Eschew Materials, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Natural Spell, Run, Spell Penetration, Stunning Fist *(B)* *[*_Fort DC 28_*]*; *Epic Feat:* Tenacious Magic (_baleful polymorph_); *Skills:* Concentration +16, Heal +16, Jump +0, Knowledge (nature) +18, Listen +31* (_+27 without blindsight_), Spellcraft +17, Spot +31* (_+27 without blindsight_), Survival +15, Tumble +19, Swim +13)

*Squid Form* (Medium Magical Beast (Aquatic); *Hit Dice* 25 (298 hp); *Init* +4; *Spd* Swim 70 ft.; *Space/Reach* 5 ft./5 ft. *AC* 23 (+4 Dex, +6 Wisdom, +3 natural), touch 20, flat-footed 19; *BAB*/*Grapple* +21/+22; *Attack* Arms +22 melee (0) or unarmed strike +22 melee (1d8+1); *Full Attack* Arms +22 melee (0) and bite +17 melee (1d6+1); or unarmed strike +22/+17/+12/+7 melee (1d8+1); or flurry of blows +21/+21/+16/+11/+6 melee (1d8+1); *SA* Flurry of blows, ki strike (magic), _improved grab_, spells, unarmed strike, wild shape (4/day, Large); *SQ* Animal companion, blindsight 120 ft., evasion, hold breath, _ink cloud_, _jet_, low-light vision, nature sense, resist nature's lure [_+4 saves vs Fey_], slow fall 20 feet, still mind, trackless step, venom immunity, wild empathy, woodland stride; *Saves* Fort +20, Ref +20, Will +22 [+24 vs enchantments]; *Abilities* Str 12, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 22, Cha 8; *Feats:* Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows *(B)*, Spell Focus (Transmutation), Eschew Materials, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Natural Spell, Run, Spell Penetration, Stunning Fist *(B)* *[*_Fort DC 28_*]*; *Epic Feat:* Tenacious Magic (_baleful polymorph_); *Skills:* Concentration +15, Heal +16, Jump +22, Knowledge (nature) +18, Listen +31* (_+27 without blindsight_), Spellcraft +17, Spot +31* (_+27 without blindsight_), Survival +15, Tumble +20, Swim +23)

*Large Shark Form* (Large Magical Beast (Aquatic); *Hit Dice* 25 (298 hp); *Init* +3; *Spd* Swim 70 ft.; *Space/Reach* 10 ft./5 ft. *AC* 22 (-1 size, +3 Dex, +6 Wisdom, +4 natural), touch 18, flat-footed 19; *BAB*/*Grapple* +21/+27; *Attack* Bite +21 melee (1d8+3) or unarmed strike +21 melee (2d6+2); *Full Attack* Bite +21 melee (1d8+3); or unarmed strike +21/+16/+11/+6 melee (2d6+2); or flurry of blows +20/+20/+15/+10/+5 melee (2d6+2); *SA* Flurry of blows, ki strike (magic), spells, unarmed strike, wild shape (4/day, Large); *SQ* Animal companion, _blindsense 30 ft._, blindsight 120 ft., evasion, hold breath, _keen scent_, low-light vision, nature sense, resist nature's lure [_+4 saves vs Fey_], slow fall 20 feet, still mind, trackless step, venom immunity, wild empathy, woodland stride; *Saves* Fort +21, Ref +19, Will +22 [+24 vs enchantments]; *Abilities* Str 14, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 22, Cha 8; *Feats:* Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows *(B)*, Spell Focus (Transmutation), Eschew Materials, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Natural Spell, Run, Spell Penetration, Stunning Fist *(B)* *[*_Fort DC 28_*]*; *Epic Feat:* Tenacious Magic (_baleful polymorph_); *Skills:* Concentration +16, Heal +16, Jump +23, Knowledge (nature) +18, Listen +31* (_+27 without blindsight_), Spellcraft +17, Spot +31* (_+27 without blindsight_), Survival +15, Tumble +19, Swim +24)

 *Giant Octopus Form* (Large Magical Beast (Aquatic); *Hit Dice* 25 (298 hp); *Init* +3; *Spd* 30 ft., swim 40 ft.; *Space/Reach* 10 ft./10 ft. (20 ft. with tentacle); *AC* 25 (-1 size, +3 Dex, +6 Wisdom, +7 natural), touch 18, flat-footed 22; *BAB*/*Grapple* +21/+29; *Attack* Tentacle +24 melee (1d4+4) or unarmed strike +24 melee (2d6+4); *Full Attack* 8 tentacles +24 melee (1d4+4) and bite +19 melee (1d8+2); or unarmed strike +24/+19/+14/+9 melee (2d6+4); or flurry of blows +23/+23/+18/+13/+8 melee (2d6+4); *SA* _Constrict 2d8+6_, flurry of blows, ki strike (magic), _improved grab_, spells, unarmed strike, wild shape (4/day, Large); *SQ* Animal companion, blindsight 120 ft., evasion, hold breath, _ink cloud_, _jet_, low-light vision, nature sense, resist nature's lure [_+4 saves vs Fey_], slow fall 20 feet, still mind, trackless step, venom immunity, wild empathy, woodland stride; *Saves* Fort +21, Ref +19, Will +22 [+24 vs enchantments]; *Abilities* Str 18, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 22, Cha 8; *Feats:* Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows *(B)*, Spell Focus (Transmutation), Eschew Materials, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Natural Spell, Run, Spell Penetration, Stunning Fist *(B)* *[*_Fort DC 28_*]*; *Epic Feat:* Tenacious Magic (_baleful polymorph_); *Skills:* Concentration +16, Heal +16, Jump +9, Knowledge (nature) +18, Listen +31* (_+27 without blindsight_), Spellcraft +17, Spot +31* (_+27 without blindsight_), Survival +15, Tumble +19, Swim +26)​*Black Belt Orca*
*Awakened Elite Advanced Orca 8th level Monk*
Gargantuan Magical Beast
*Hit Dice:* 16d10+8d8+216 (340 hp)
*Initiative:* +3
*Speed:* Swim 70 ft. (14 squares)
*Armor Class:* 25 (–4 size, +3 Dex, +6 Wisdom, +10 natural), touch 15, flat-footed 22
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +22/+51
*Attack:* Bite +31 melee (3d6+19) or unarmed strike +31 melee (6d8+13)
*Full Attack:* Bite +31 melee (3d6+19) or unarmed strike +31/+26/+21/+16 melee (6d8+13) or flurry of blows +30/+30/+25/+20/+15 melee (6d8+13)
*Space/Reach:* 20 ft./15 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Flurry of blows, unarmed strike
*Special Qualities:* Blindsight 120 ft., evasion, fast healing 3, hold breath, ki strike (magic), low-light vision, purity of body, slow fall 40 ft., still mind, wholeness of body [_16 hp/day_]
*Saves:* Fort +25, Ref +19, Will +17 (+19 vs enchantment)
*Abilities:* Str 36, Dex 16, Con 28, Int 10, Wis 22, Cha 6
*Skills:* Jump +35, Listen +29* (_+25 without blindsight_), Move Silently +16, Spot +29* (_+25 without blindsight_), Swim +21, Tumble +16
*Feats:* Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows *(B)*, Endurance, Improved Grapple, Improved Trip *(B)*, Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike), Lightning Reflexes, Power Attack, Run, Stunning Fist *(B)* *[*_Fort DC 28_*]*
*Epic Feats:* Dire Charge, Fast Healing
*Environment:* Cold aquatic
*Organization:* Solitary or pod (6–11)
*Challenge Rating:* 17
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Lawful neutral
*Advancement:* 17–29 HD (Gargantuan)
*Level Adjustment:* —


----------



## Cleon (Nov 29, 2009)

Anyway, now I've got those Karate Orcas off my chest I'll try to drag this thread back to Prehistoric Beasts.

I've got some Therizinosaurs in a presentable condition, although I'm not sure they're _quite_ finished.

The main problem is I can't quite settle on what augmentation (if any) to give their scythe like claws. Originally I went for a 19-20×3 critical but I was concerned that might be a bit too much, so I then wondered about giving them a Rend special attack doing an extra lot of claw damage if it hits a single target with twice (e.g. if a _Therizinosaurus_ hits a target with both 3d6+10 claw attacks it does an additional 3d6+10, for 9d6+30 in total).

While I am tempted to give them both, I'm not sure whether that isn't a bit exaggerated.

At the moment I've just given them a ×3 critical, to allow for them impaling foes on their extra-long claws. That feels like a reasonable compromise.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 29, 2009)

*Therizinosaurs*
The Therizinosauria are bizarre looking bipedal dinosaurs named for the three scythe-like claws that tip each of their long arms, said claw can be over a yard long in the biggest species. Therizinosaurs have a barrel-like body held in a semi-upright posture, a small head on a pretty long neck, and a moderately long tail. They have four-toed feet, but unlike most theropods all four toes face forward and touch the ground when the beast walks. At least some species were covered in feathers. 

Therizinosaurs are herbivores, using their claws to tear down branches to reach shoots, leaves and fruit. They are not very swift, but are easily able to defend themselves with their formidable claws.

*Therizinosaurus*
*Late Cretaceous* *(70* *MYA)*
*Other Therizinosaurs Early-Late Cretaceous* *(130-65* *MYA)*
Huge Animal
*Hit* *Dice:* 15d8+105 (172 hp)
*Initiative:* +1
*Speed:* 40 ft. (8 squares)
*Armor* *Class:* 18 (-2 size, +1 Dex, +9 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 17
*Base* *Attack/Grapple:* +11/+29
*Attack:* Claw +20 melee (3d6+10/19-20×3)
*Full* *Attack:* 2 claws +20 melee (3d6+10/19-20×3)
*Space/Reach:* 15 ft./15 ft.
*Special* *Attacks:* Augmented critical
*Special* *Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +16, Ref +10, Will +6
*Abilities:* Str 30, Dex 13, Con 25, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 4
*Skills:* Listen +15, Spot +15, Survival +7
*Feats:* Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Endurance, Improved Critical (claw), Weapon Focus (claw), Snatch
*Environment:* Warm or temperate plains and forests
*Organization:* Solitary or pair
*Challenge* *Rating:* 7
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 16-20 HD (Huge)
*Level* *Adjustment:* —

_A bizarre looking animal resembling an enormous ostrich more than three times as tall as a man. The beast is over forty feet long including its great lizard-like tail, and has a body covered with a thatch of long feathers. Instead of an ostrich's wings, it has eight foot long arms, with yard-long talons on the three fingers of each hand._

_Therizinosaurus_ is one of the largest of the Therizinosaurs. A typical _Therizinosaurus_ is between 33 and 40 feet long and weighs about 15000 pounds.

*Combat*
_Therizinosaurus_ is not particularly aggressive, but will ferociously defend itself if threatened, tearing apart opponents with their immense claws.

*Augmented Critical (Ex):* A _Therizinosaurus's_ claw attacks do triple damage on a confirmed critical.
*
**Skills
*An _Therizinosaurus_ has a +4 racial bonus on Listen, Spot and Survival checks.

*Segnosaurus*
*Late Cretaceous* *(95-90* *MYA)*
Large Animal
*Hit* *Dice:* 8d8+40 (76 hp)
*Initiative:* +2
*Speed:* 40 ft. (8 squares)
*Armor* *Class:* 17 (-1 size, +2 Dex, +6 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 15
*Base* *Attack/Grapple:* +6/+16
*Attack:* Claw +12 melee (3d4+6/×3)
*Full* *Attack:* 2 claws +12 melee (3d4+6/×3)
*Space/Reach:* 10 ft./10 ft.
*Special* *Attacks:* Augmented critical
*Special* *Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +11, Ref +8, Will +3
*Abilities:* Str 22, Dex 15, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 4
*Skills:* Listen +12, Spot +12, Survival +6
*Feats:* Alertness, Endurance, Weapon Focus (claw)
*Environment:* Warm or temperate plains and forests
*Organization:* Solitary or pair
*Challenge* *Rating:* 5
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 9-14 HD (Large); 15-16 HD (Huge)
*Level* *Adjustment:* —

A typical _Segnosaurus_ is about 10 feet tall, and 20 feet long, weighing some 1500 pounds.

The above stats can also be used for the slightly smaller _Erlikosaurus_.

*Neimongosaurus*
*Late Cretaceous* *(90* *MYA)*
Medium Animal
*Hit* *Dice:* 4d8+12 (30 hp)
*Initiative:* +2
*Speed:* 40 ft. (8 squares)
*Armor* *Class:* 16 (+2 Dex, +4 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 14
*Base* *Attack/Grapple:* +3/+5
*Attack:* Claw +6 melee (2d4+2/×3)
*Full* *Attack:* 2 claws +6 melee (2d4+2/×3)
*Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft.
*Special* *Attacks:* Augmented critical
*Special* *Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +7, Ref +6, Will +2
*Abilities:* Str 14, Dex 15, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 4
*Skills:* Listen +10, Spot +10, Survival +5
*Feats:* Alertness, Weapon Focus (claw)
*Environment:* Warm or temperate plains and forests
*Organization:* Solitary or pair
*Challenge* *Rating:* 2
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 5-7 HD (Medium); 8-12 HD (Large);
*Level* *Adjustment:* —

One of the smaller and more primitive species of Therizinosaur, a _Neimongosaurus_ is roughly 7-8 feet long and weighs 150 pounds.


----------



## hamishspence (Nov 29, 2009)

*therizinosaurs*

The therizinosaurs look pretty good- seeing as they are more upright than average theropods, and long in the arm as well, a reach equal to their space, as is given, looks pretty good.

The whale stats were interesting as well.

Apparently there are quite a lot of interesting prehistoric whales, but sadly only _Basilosaurus_ appears in 3.5 (in the _Frostburn_ book).

"Killer sperm whales" such as _Zygophyseter_ and _Brygmophyseter, _which were midway between bull killer whales, and sperm whales, in size, had big teeth, and may have hunted large whales, in packs, might make for an interesting prehistoric "sea monster."

On size- and whether Colossal-and-a-half should get a 40 ft base and Colossal+ a 50 ft base- that might depend on if the creature gets both a bite/head slam attack and a tail slap, or not.

Baleen whales _without_ a head attack, would work- especially if Colossal begins at 80 tons rather than 125. But with a head attack, even the Blue Whale is hard to justify as having a 50 ft base.

Without head attack, it would probably look something like this:

_*Short whales:*_
Pygmy Right Whale- Huge, 15 ft space, 10 ft tail slap
Small adult Right Whale- Gargantuan, 20 ft space, 15 ft tail slap
Big adult Right Whale- Colossal, 30 ft space, 20 ft tail slap
Big Bowhead Whale- Colossal-and-a-half, 40 ft space, 30 ft tail slap

_*Long whales:*_
Minke Whale- Huge, 15 ft space, 15 ft tail slap
Humpback Whale/Bryde's Whale- Gargantuan, 20 ft space, 20 ft tail slap
Sei Whale- Colossal, 30 ft space, 30 ft tail slap
Pygmy Blue Whale/Fin whale- Colossal-and-a-half, 40 ft space, 40 ft tail slap
Blue Whale- Colossal+, 50 ft space, 50 ft tail slap


----------



## xidoraven (Nov 30, 2009)

*I'm back!*

Ok guys (and gals), I am back and not homeless.  However, I still can't keep up with you both - you just create and revise faster than I can.   

Everything looks great, and I think you are both making some very amazing progress on these critters.  I just want to make sure that every stat block or grouping of stat blocks has included with it which creatures would use those stats (in the case of creatures which are so similar that they could all use the same stats).

Also, once they are finalized, you may copy-post them to the archive forum HERE.  That way we have a full list that doesn't include the commentary and discussion about how to revise and edit them.  I can do this if you'd like, but I am far behind you both at this point.  Let me know what you think.

I will be trying to finalize my dinopriminals and other fictional elements for the Nymian Beastlands campaign setting, which will utilize these prehistoric animals and dinosaurs in its ecology lists.  I am also going to need to revise my previous content to be updated to the current status of this project and the deliverables that you have made here (as well as what creatures are still needed - the TO-DO list).  Have you both seen the page of content on Elftown about Nym and the ecology and ideas I have for it?

Hopefully I will be around much more now to help and put in my two cents.  I know that you didn't lose much without me here, but it's always good to have another set of eyes reviewing when needed.    Best wishes,
-will


----------



## hamishspence (Dec 1, 2009)

*Genus/Species names for creatures in each size class*

I must admit that I haven't provided much, besides suggestions and one statblock (Deltadromeus).

However- possible list of creatures for each size class.

*Gracile tyrannosaur:*
Medium: _Raptorex, Guanlong_
Medium-and-a-half: possibly _Proceratosaurus_
Large: _Eotyrannus_
Large-and-a-half:_ Dryptosaurus_
Huge: _Albertosaurus_, _Gorgosaurus_

_*Robust tyrannosaur:*_
Huge: _Daspletosaurus_
Huge-and-a-half: _Tarbosaurus, Tyrannosaurus_

*Clawed, fast theropod:*
Medium-and-a-half: _Fukuiraptor_
Large: _Australovenator_
Large-and-a-half: _Neovenator, Megaraptor, Orkoraptor, Aerosteon_
Huge: _Chilantaisaurus_

_*Spinosaur:*_
Huge: _Baryonyx, Irritator_
Huge-and-a-half: _Suchomimus_
Gargantuan: _Spinosaurus_

_*Dromaeosaur:*_
Small-and-a-half: _Velociraptor_
Medium: possibly _Dromaeosaurus_
Medium-and-a-half: _Deinonychus_
Large: _Achillobator, Austroraptor_
Large-and-a-half: _Utahraptor_

These are a few I can think of offhand.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 1, 2009)

hamishspence said:


> The therizinosaurs look pretty good- seeing as they are more upright than average theropods, and long in the arm as well, a reach equal to their space, as is given, looks pretty good.
> 
> The whale stats were interesting as well.
> 
> ...




A 24 HD Gargantuan orca or carchalot whale's stats should be an easy and fairly accurate representation of those, I'd have thought.

Anyhow, I've finished statting up an "Orca Redux" using my proposed size/HD scheme, with a few other tweaks, but I think I'll start a new thread "Building a Better Whale" thread to discuss them, rather than go (further) off-topic here.

I'm starting on the "Cachalot Redux" and they needed a lot more work than the orcas. For a start, they are supposed to eat Giant Squid and the SRD Giant Squid would make mincemeat of the SRD Sperm Whale - I crunched the numbers and a full-attacking SRD Giant Squid would do an average of 134.45 hit points of damage _per round_ to the SRD Cachalot Whale, while the whale would only average 34.9 hp/round - at that rate, the Squid needs a mean of 1.12 rounds to kill the whale, and the whale needs 2.06 rounds to kill the Squid!

Mostly this is due to the Giant Squid being unrealistically big & deadly - I statted up a more "realistic" _Architeuthis_ and it comes out as a 6HD Large Animal, a far easier opponent for a sperm whale to tackle.

Once I've finished my 24 HD take on a Cachalot Whale I'll have a cetacean that has a decent chance of tackling the monster that is the SRD Giant Squid, but that'll be another day.



hamishspence said:


> On size- and whether Colossal-and-a-half should get a 40 ft base and Colossal+ a 50 ft base- that might depend on if the creature gets both a bite/head slam attack and a tail slap, or not.
> 
> Baleen whales _without_ a head attack, would work- especially if Colossal begins at 80 tons rather than 125. But with a head attack, even the Blue Whale is hard to justify as having a 50 ft base.




I've more-or-less settled on "Super-Colossal" or "Colossal+" with a 40-ft Space and "Epic" with a 50-ft base and I think I'll stick to that for the time being, I think it would make things too confusing if we have both 40 and 50 feet for the same size category.

As for baleen whales, I'm currently thinking a single tail-slap/slam for both standard and full-attack. I was going to divide them into slender "Rorqual whale" and thick-bodied "Right Whale" body types, but the only stat difference I was thinking of was giving the rorquals a higher swimming speed.

While a 60-ton right whale is around 50 feet long and a 60 ton rorqual whale around 70 feet, I don't feel the greater body length necessarily translates into greater combat reach, especially as the 3E precedent leans towards giving most Animals a short reach. Besides, the right whale is supposedly much more agile (if far slower) than a fin whale, so may be able to move its body around into an attacking/defending position faster and hence compensate for the shorter length it can flex.

For that matter, I don't even know that the flexing portion of its tail *is* a shorter length. For all I know, both species may have the greatest flexibility in the same length of tail, and rorquals just have a longer rigid midsection. (From what I remember of fast-swimming fish, such as tuna, the head and most of the body is fairly stiff, and most of the flexing is near the tail-fin. For all I know, rorquals may be similar.)

Maybe a bit of "research" will cast some light on the dilemma.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 1, 2009)

xidoraven said:


> Ok guys (and gals), I am back and not homeless.  However, I still can't keep up with you both - you just create and revise faster than I can.
> 
> Everything looks great, and I think you are both making some very amazing progress on these critters.  I just want to make sure that every stat block or grouping of stat blocks has included with it which creatures would use those stats (in the case of creatures which are so similar that they could all use the same stats).
> 
> Also, once they are finalized, you may copy-post them to the archive forum HERE.  That way we have a full list that doesn't include the commentary and discussion about how to revise and edit them.  I can do this if you'd like, but I am far behind you both at this point.  Let me know what you think.




Welcome back!

I'm not sure when I'd have time to copy over the dinos I've done so far. Some of the posts are so long they're difficult to edit into a presentable state, so I'm reluctant to spend the extra time to do so. It would be a lot easier just doing a post with links to this thread, but that would obviously make it impossible to scroll down from creature to creature.

As for prehistoric works in progress, I'm becoming increasingly tempted to dare the nightmare that is the Maniraptors, but that will be a very big job so it will probably be a long time before it reaches fruition.

So, I fear you'll have to wait a bit!


----------



## hamishspence (Dec 2, 2009)

Cleon said:


> I've more-or-less settled on "Super-Colossal" or "Colossal+" with a 40-ft Space and "Epic" with a 50-ft base and I think I'll stick to that for the time being, I think it would make things too confusing if we have both 40 and 50 feet for the same size category.




yes- rename "Colossal+" "Epic" and it avoids confusion.

I've been using "-and-a-half" formulations because it is easier to keep track of for me than 5 or 6 variants of "pretty durn big"

Also- the next size up from _Architeuthis _should maybe be _Mesonychoteuthis_, the Colossal Squid, due to it being larger, heavier, and with more formidable weaponry. Though maybe not quite so powerful as the SRD giant squid.

The Jumbo squid or Humboldt Squid probably works OK as the standard sized D&D squid.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 3, 2009)

hamishspence said:


> Also- the next size up from _Architeuthis _should maybe be _Mesonychoteuthis_, the Colossal Squid, due to it being larger, heavier, and with more formidable weaponry. Though maybe not quite so powerful as the SRD giant squid.
> 
> The Jumbo squid or Humboldt Squid probably works OK as the standard sized D&D squid.




Would it surprise you to hear I've already statted up a take on _Mesonychoteuthis_?

Oh, and getting back to the "prehistoric critter" thread I've also got a homebrew of *Tusoteuthis*, a Cretaceous warm-water 'monster' squid.

As for the Humboldt Squid (_Dosidicus gigas_), I think it's pretty clear that the SRD squid is a pretty good fit to it.

Anyhow, the SRD Giant Squid is way more powerful than a realistic _Architeuthis_. At 300-600 pounds for a big specimen, they're no match for a multi-ton sperm whale.

Still, I like the idea of cachalot whales engaging in terrible battles to the death with giant squid, so to give them a fighting chance against the SRD monster version the whales need a considerable boost in strength. Which they deserve anyway, since the SRD version is barely tougher than an elephant and does a lot less damage to boot!


----------



## hamishspence (Dec 7, 2009)

*SRD squid*

I figure the SRD giant squid represents the classic movie and book monster- Mama Squid from Peter Benchley's _The Beast_, the creature in the movie_ 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea _("Giant squid astern, sir!") and so on.

What changes do you think need to be made to the existing (errataed) maniraptorans like the SRD deinonychosaurs? Maybe cut their speed, but make them better solo hunters?


----------



## Cleon (Dec 8, 2009)

hamishspence said:


> What changes do you think need to be made to the existing (errataed) maniraptorans like the SRD deinonychosaurs? Maybe cut their speed, but make them better solo hunters?




Well their speed looks acceptable to me (60 ft. with the Run feat works out about 35 mph, which is 80% the speed of an ostrich, so seems OK for a speedy avian predatory dinosaur).

I was thinking about adding a racial bonus to Balance and Climb checks, since their rod-like tail and grasping hands & sickle-toes mean they're pretty well equipped for those skills, but I don't want to overload them with boosts, since they're already quite tough for their size.

For "regular" maniraptors I'll just start by extending their stats to cover the full range of known sizes, from the size of a weasel (the Diminutive _Epidexipteryx_) to Large (_Utahraptor_) and then add Very Large and Huge animals to represent raptors of exaggerated size. The smallest maniraptors' stats can also serve as hatchlings of bigger species, of course.

EDIT: Oh, and I would probably tweak their Constitution down a bit. They may be powerful, but I think a _Utahraptor /Megaraptor_ should be a bit more fragile than a _Tyrannosaurus_, unlike the SRD versions which both have Con 21.

EDITED EDIT: Oh yes, and I was toying with the idea of changing their special attacks to change them to a grapple-and-talons strategy, maybe with their foreclaws as their primary attack with Improved Grab, followed by a claw-rake attack with their talons? Not sure whether I'd cut off the Pounce or not, I'm tempted to give them pounce-and-grab like the SRD big cats.

I also wonder whether their grapple modifier is high enough, if _Deinonychus_ hunted _Tenontosaurus_ in packs as some have theorized, they'll need a grapple modifier good enough to give them a decent chance of using their killing claws in a clinch.

Hmm, a SRD _Deinonychus _is 4HD Str 17, although I'm thinking of cutting it down to Str 15 to make a realistically sized (~125 lb, 12 feet) Deinonychus as opposed to the 300 lb 16 feet SRD version. That'd be Grapple +7 or +6.

A _Tenontosaurus _is 2000-4500 pounds, so is probably at the upper range of the Large size, say around 6HD and Str 25, which works out at Grapple +16. A 9-10 point difference means a medium 'raptor would have little chance of getting a hold and using their killing talon effectively (assuming I'm changing them to a secondary attack or claw-rake, as mentioned above).

Maybe give dromaeosaurs Improved Grapple as a bonus feat?


----------



## hamishspence (Dec 9, 2009)

*Speed*

The small ones might be pretty fast, but I got the impression that the larger ones (Deinonychus, Utahraptor) were, in fact, pretty short-legged compared to many other coeleurosaurs- like the ornithomimids. With a ratio of lower leg to upper, somewhat lower than most high speed sprinters.

And thick-legged- Utahraptor had very thick leg bones.

Still, 35 mph is a little more plausible than some figures given in fiction:

"50, 60 mph, if they ever got into the open. And they're astonishing jumpers" (Muldoon, _Jurassic Park_)

Bu the real thing, was probably more Average Horse, than Racehorse.

Given that figures for Utahraptor seem to vary from 18 to 25 ft, the 18 ft ones could be the baseline, and the 25 ft ones could be advanced, Very Large animals.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 9, 2009)

hamishspence said:


> The small ones might be pretty fast, but I got the impression that the larger ones (Deinonychus, Utahraptor) were, in fact, pretty short-legged compared to many other coeleurosaurs- like the ornithomimids. With a ratio of lower leg to upper, somewhat lower than most high speed sprinters.
> 
> And thick-legged- Utahraptor had very thick leg bones.
> 
> Still, 35 mph is a little more plausible than some figures given in fiction:




Well I did toy with the idea of dropping them to 50 feet but I'm leaving the 'stock' dromaeosaurs at speed 60 feet for the time being, like they are in the SRD.



hamishspence said:


> Given that figures for Utahraptor seem to vary from 18 to 25 ft, the 18 ft ones could be the baseline, and the 25 ft ones could be advanced, Very Large animals.




Well going by my size scale it looks more like a _Utahraptor_ would be Big (~16-18 feet, 250-400 pounds) to Large (~20-24 feet, 500-1000 pounds), but I've tweaked the standard _Utahraptors_ up to Large to match the revised SRD size.


----------



## Steinhauser (Dec 9, 2009)

I'd been giving a lot of thought to changing the dromaeosaurs in the MM for a while. I'm glad I found this thread.

Personally I think 4 HD is kind of steep. It's almost lion HD, and left over from when they were Large (pre-errata). Maybe 3 HD - comparable in size (and threat posed) to a leopard.

The damage is similar, left over from when they were Large. I'd guess they should do at most 1d6/talons and 1d4/bite. They won't be doing as much as a leopard with their bites, since it wasn't their main hunting weapon. Talons are mainly for rakes, as mentioned. (Technically a stab rather than a rake.) 15 Str, as Cleon suggested, is a good approximation, and Con should be greatly reduced too (they're birds after all).

If you want the deinonychus to be able to tackle larger prey, my idea is to give them Improved Grab (claw) and, if they hit, the ability to substitute a Jump (or perhaps Climb) check for the first grapple check. However, the reality of their pack hunting is questionable, and as solo hunters, pounce (+rake) is preferable. Either way I like the idea of the claw being primary and the talons being a rake, since I can't imagine them lashing out with feet (like a kangaroo!?) without first trying to grab on.

I reduced all skill bonuses to +4 (from +8). But it's probably not that big a deal. I also reduced them to 1 Int, based on the size of their brains. Personally I don't think any dinosaur would have had 2 Int. But that's just me.

Speed, I'll let you guys handle. My house rules still use 60 ft.


----------



## hamishspence (Dec 9, 2009)

Cleon said:


> Well going by my size scale it looks more like a _Utahraptor_ would be Big (~16-18 feet, 250-400 pounds) to Large (~20-24 feet, 500-1000 pounds), but I've tweaked the standard _Utahraptors_ up to Large to match the revised SRD size.




main reason I said large was weight- usually estimated at around 1500 pounds.

Even for a 21 ft _Utahraptor, _it's chunky.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utahraptor

Unfortunately it's only known from very scanty remains- so all weight estimates are pretty speculative. Maybe the similarly sized _Achillobator_ will narrow down the weight estimates some.

Using 1500 lb and 21 ft long, and the ratio between 21 ft and 16 ft, I get a ballpark figure of about 660 lb for a 16 ft _Utahraptor._

Not too shabby for a Large creature- basically big-tiger sized.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 11, 2009)

Steinhauser said:


> I'd been giving a lot of thought to changing the dromaeosaurs in the MM for a while. I'm glad I found this thread.
> 
> Personally I think 4 HD is kind of steep. It's almost lion HD, and left over from when they were Large (pre-errata). Maybe 3 HD - comparable in size (and threat posed) to a leopard.
> 
> The damage is similar, left over from when they were Large. I'd guess they should do at most 1d6/talons and 1d4/bite. They won't be doing as much as a leopard with their bites, since it wasn't their main hunting weapon. Talons are mainly for rakes, as mentioned. (Technically a stab rather than a rake.) 15 Str, as Cleon suggested, is a good approximation, and Con should be greatly reduced too (they're birds after all).




Welcome aboard, Steinhauser! I agree with most of what you say. If I was homebrewing a realistic _Deinonychus_ from scratch I'd make it around a leopard in power (although I might have to tone the leopard down first - big cats have been damage dealing mincing machines since they days of 1st edition, what with their claw/claw/bite/rake/rake routines. Five attacks a round sure adds up!).

That said, I was wanting to keep at least some of the rather exaggerated nature of the 3E _Deinonychus_, if only because a lot of people are likely to expect them to be pretty tough combatants having watched too many Jurassic Park rip-offs. So, I'm going to leave them 4 Hit Dice.

As for the talon-stabbing, I've already renamed "rake" to "talon-stab" in my conversion.



Steinhauser said:


> If you want the deinonychus to be able to tackle larger prey, my idea is to give them Improved Grab (claw) and, if they hit, the ability to substitute a Jump (or perhaps Climb) check for the first grapple check. However, the reality of their pack hunting is questionable, and as solo hunters, pounce (+rake) is preferable. Either way I like the idea of the claw being primary and the talons being a rake, since I can't imagine them lashing out with feet (like a kangaroo!?) without first trying to grab on.




I think just giving them a racial bonus on grapple for their grasping claws and talons is far easier. Besides, their high speed gives Maniraptors a jolly high Jump check.

After long deliberation I've switched their primary attack to bite. Mainly because making it their foreclaws gives them 2 primary attacks when full-attacking, which gives them two primary attack bonuses, which adds up to a lot of damage for a big Dromaeosaur.



Steinhauser said:


> I reduced all skill bonuses to +4 (from +8). But it's probably not that big a deal. I also reduced them to 1 Int, based on the size of their brains. Personally I don't think any dinosaur would have had 2 Int. But that's just me.




I've cut the skill bonuses to +4 as well, except I've added a couple more skills (e.g. Balance, Climb). I agree about the Int 2 being rather inappropriate but I'm not going to change it, mainly because it's the only way to differentiate between a "smart croc" level animal like _Velociraptor_ and a "dumb lizard" like a sauropod. I'd have much preferred 3E animal intelligence to be more like AD&D, where the smarter ones (e.g. bears, gorillas) could have Intelligence 3-5. Trying to cram everything into either 1 or 2 doesn't leave much room for subtle gradiations!



Steinhauser said:


> Speed, I'll let you guys handle. My house rules still use 60 ft.




My current thinking is I'll just drop Run from the feats of the standard Medium to Large raptor. Then they'd have to sneak within charge distance of the Ornithomimus conversion (which has speed 60 and the Run feat) I've already done to have any chance of catching it. Any further and the Ostrich-mimic would take a Run action and outdistance it by 25% per round.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 11, 2009)

hamishspence said:


> main reason I said large was weight- usually estimated at around 1500 pounds.
> 
> Even for a 21 ft _Utahraptor, _it's chunky.
> 
> ...




Well a lot of things about dinosaurs are speculative, that's why it's so much fun arguing about them.

Anyhow, I was just saying that under my current "generic maniraptor stats" a 16 foot length falls under the "Big dromeosaur" category. I wouldn't fuss too much over it since a particularly robust or gracile animal could easily shift up or down half a size category.

Besides, I'd already put _Utahraptor_ in as the example of a "Large Maniraptor", and Achillobator in as the "Big Maniraptor", so all is right with the paleoworld.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 11, 2009)

I think I'd better post the current "rough draft" of the Maniraptor Stats I'm working on, since it'll make it easier to see what I've been talking about.

I've tweaked the weights a fair bit to make the progression smoother (a _Dromaeosaurus_, for example, is actually a trifle smaller and lighter than the "stock Little Maniraptor" its name is attached to, but since I'm doing a set of generic stats it's inevitable some don't match precisely.

The stats for the smaller versions aren't quite presentable yet. So far I've got good candidate-names for the Diminutive (_Epidexipteryx_) and Tiny (_Bambiraptor_) Maniraptors, but I'm short a "Very Small" 'Raptor (~4 feet long, 15 inches tall, 6-8 pounds). Any suggestions for a species with that adult size?


----------



## Cleon (Dec 11, 2009)

*Rough Draft Maniraptors*

*Small Maniraptor (Velociraptor)*
*Late Cretaceous (75-70 MYA)*
Small Animal
*Hit* *Dice:* 2d8+2 (11 hp)
*Initiative:* +4
*Speed:* 60 ft. (12 squares)
*Armor* *Class:* 16 (+1 size, +3 Dex, +2 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 13
*Base* *Attack/Grapple:* +1/+1 [_–3 without racial bonus_]
*Attack:* Bite +5 melee (1d6)
*Full* *Attack:* Bite +5 melee (1d6) and 2 foreclaws +3 melee (1d3) and talons +3 melee (1d6)
*Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft.
*Special* *Attacks:* Improved grab, talon-stab [_+5 melee 1d8_], pounce
*Special* *Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +4, Ref +6, Will +2
*Abilities:* Str 11, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 10
*Skills:* Balance +11, Climb +7, Hide +11* [_+15 in undergrowth_], Jump +19, Listen +8, Move Silently +7, Spot +8, Survival +6
*Feats:* Multiattack, Track (B), Weapon Finesse (B)
*Environment:* Warm forests or plains
*Organization:* Solitary, pair, or pack (3–6)
*Challenge* *Rating:* 1
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 3 HD (Small)
*Level* *Adjustment:* —

6 feet long, 2 feet tall, 20-30 pounds.


*Little Maniraptor (Dromaeosaurus)*
*Late Cretaceous (75 MYA)*
Small Animal
*Hit* *Dice:* 3d8+40 (76 hp)
*Initiative:* +3
*Speed:* 60 ft. (12 squares)
*Armor* *Class:* 16 (+1 size, +3 Dex, +2 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 13
*Base* *Attack/Grapple:* +2/+3 [_–1 without racial bonus_]
*Attack:* Bite +6 melee (1d6+1)
*Full* *Attack:* Bite +6 melee (1d6+1) and 2 foreclaws +5 melee (1d3) and talons +4 melee (1d6)
*Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft.
*Special* *Attacks:* Improved grab, talon-stab [_+6 melee 1d8+1_], pounce
*Special* *Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +4, Ref +6, Will +3
*Abilities:* Str 13, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 10
*Skills:* Balance +11, Climb +7, Hide +11* [_+15 in undergrowth_], Jump +19, Listen +8, Move Silently +8, Spot +8, Survival +7
*Feats:* Multiattack, Track (B), Weapon Finesse (B), Weapon Focus (foreclaw)
*Environment:* Warm forests or plains
*Organization:* Solitary, pair, or pack (3–6)
*Challenge* *Rating:* 2
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 4 (Medium)
*Level* *Adjustment:* —

7-8 feet long, 3 feet tall, 50-60 pounds.


*Medium Maniraptor (Deinonychus)*
*Early Cretaceous (115–110 MYA)*
Medium Animal
*Hit* *Dice:* 4d8+8 (26 hp)
*Initiative:* +3
*Speed:* 60 ft. (12 squares)
*Armor* *Class:* 16 (+3 Dex, +3 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 13
*Base* *Attack/Grapple:* +3/+9 [_+5 without racial bonus_]
*Attack:* Bite +6 melee (1d8+2)
*Full* *Attack:* Bite +6 melee (1d8+2) and 2 foreclaws +5 melee (1d4+1) and talons +4 melee (1d8+1)
*Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft.
*Special* *Attacks:* Improved grab, talon-stab [_+6 melee 2d6+3_], pounce
*Special* *Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +6, Ref +7, Will +3
*Abilities:* Str 15, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 10
*Skills:* Balance +11, Climb +7, Hide +8* [_+12 in undergrowth_], Jump +19, Listen +8, Move Silently +8, Spot +8, Survival +7
*Feats:* Multiattack, Track (B), Weapon Finesse (B), Weapon Focus (foreclaw)
*Environment:* Warm forests or plains
*Organization:* Solitary, pair, or pack (3–6)
*Challenge* *Rating:* 3
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 5-6 HD (Medium)
*Level* *Adjustment:* —

A _Deinonychus_ is bright green along its back and flanks, with a much lighter shade of the same colour on its underside. The body has darker spots or stripes. Its tail extends straight out behind itself, held aloft by an intricate structure of bony supports, thus allowing its weight to be carried entirely by the back legs.

A _Deinonychus_ has a total length of about 10-12 feet and stands some 4 feet tall, with a weight between 125 and 200 pounds.
*
Combat
*A _Deinonychus_ uses a combination of speed, grasping forearms, large teeth, and hind legs with ripping talons. It hunts by running at prey, leaping, and ripping with its rear talons as it claws and bites. The talons count as one attack. A _Deinonychus_ has a relatively large brain for a dinosaur, and its pack hunts with cunning tactics.

*Pounce* *(Ex):* If a _Deinonychus_ charges, it can make a full attack, including a Talon-Stab if its Improved Grab succeeds.
*
Improved Grab (Ex): *To use this ability, a _Deinonychus_ must hit an opponent of any size with a bite or foreclaw attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can Talon-Stab.

A _Deinonychus_ has a +4 racial bonus to grapple checks.

*Talon-Stab (Ex):* When a _Deinonychus_ makes a full attack against a foe it is grappling with, its talons attack at +6 melee for 2d6+3 damage.
*
Skills
*A _Deinonychus_ has a +8 racial bonus on Balance and a +4 racial bonus on Climb, Hide, Jump, Listen, Move Silently, Spot, and Survival checks. A _Deinonychus_ can use either its Strength or its Dexterity bonus on Climb checks.

*Its racial bonus to Hide increases to +8 in undergrowth.


*Big Maniraptor (Achillobator)*
*Late Cretaceous* *(90* *MYA)*
Medium Animal
*Hit* *Dice:* 6d8+18 (45 hp)
*Initiative:* +3
*Speed:* 60 ft. (12 squares)
*Armor* *Class:* 16 (+3 Dex, +3 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 13
*Base* *Attack/Grapple:* +4/+12 [_+8 without racial bonus_]
*Attack:* Bite +8 melee (2d4+4)
*Full* *Attack:* Bite +8 melee (2d4+4) and 2 foreclaws +7 melee (1d4+2) and talons +6 melee (1d10+2)
*Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft.
*Special* *Attacks:* Improved grab, talon-stab [_+8 melee 2d8+6_], pounce
*Special* *Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +8, Ref +8, Will +4
*Abilities:* Str 19, Dex 17, Con 16, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 10
*Skills:* Balance +11, Climb +8, Hide +12* [_+16 in undergrowth_], Jump +20, Listen +8, Move Silently +9, Spot +8, Survival +7
*Feats:* Multiattack, Skill Focus (Hide), Track (B), Weapon Finesse (B), Weapon Focus (foreclaw)
*Environment:* Warm forests or plains
*Organization:* Solitary, pair, or pack (3–6)
*Challenge* *Rating:* 4
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 7 HD (Medium); 8-9 HD (Large)
*Level* *Adjustment:* —

15-18 feet long, 6 feet tall, 300 to 500 pounds.


*Large Maniraptor (Utahraptor)*
*Early* *Cretaceous* *(130-120* *MYA)*
Large Animal
*Hit* *Dice:* 8d8+32 (68 hp)
*Initiative:* +3
*Speed:* 60 ft. (12 squares)
*Armor* *Class:* 17 (–1 size, +3 Dex, +5 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 14
*Base* *Attack/Grapple:* +6/+20 [_+16 without racial bonus_]
*Attack:* Bite +11 melee (2d6+6)
*Full* *Attack:* Bite +11 melee (2d6+6) and 2 foreclaws +10 melee (1d6+3) and talons +9 melee (2d6+3)
*Space/Reach:* 10 ft./5 ft.
*Special* *Attacks:* Improved grab, talon-stab [_+11 melee 3d6+9_], pounce
*Special* *Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +10, Ref +9, Will +4
*Abilities:* Str 23, Dex 15, Con 18, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 10
*Skills:* Balance +11, Climb +10, Hide +10* [_+14 in undergrowth_], Jump +22, Listen +8, Move Silently +10, Spot +8, Survival +7
*Feats:* Multiattack, Track (B), Skill Focus (Hide), Weapon Finesse (B), Weapon Focus (foreclaw)
*Environment:* Warm forests or plains
*Organization:* Solitary, pair, or pack (3–6)
*Challenge* *Rating:* 5
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 9–15 HD (Large)
*Level* *Adjustment:* —

20-24 feet long, 8 feet tall, 1000-1500 pounds.


----------



## Steinhauser (Dec 11, 2009)

> Welcome aboard, Steinhauser!



Thanks. : )



> That said, I was wanting to keep at least some of the rather exaggerated nature of the 3E _Deinonychus_, if only because a lot of people are likely to expect them to be pretty tough combatants having watched too many Jurassic Park rip-offs. So, I'm going to leave them 4 Hit Dice.



I'll admit one of the bigger motivations for my change was to reduce them to 4th level animal companions. By the time I get to 7th level I'd be wanting a tiger or grizzly. (Or their prehistoric equivalents as they case may be.) If people wanted something more like JP raptors, I'd just advance them, or use a _Utahraptor_. I still think 3 HD and leopard-power attacks is the way to go - but, your call.

EDIT: Your _Dromaeosaurus_ is pretty much a carbon copy of my houserules _Deinonychus,_ except small size.



> I think just giving them a racial bonus on grapple for their grasping claws and talons is far easier.



Yeah, you're probably right on that one - no need to overcomplicate things. A straight +4 bonus would probably suffice.



> I agree about the Int 2 being rather inappropriate but I'm not going to change it, mainly because it's the only way to differentiate between a "smart croc" level animal like _Velociraptor_ and a "dumb lizard" like a sauropod.



I suppose this rings true; more gradations would be better, of course. Predators should be more intelligent than their prey - it's just a shame it gets to share an Int score with chimps, canines, etc. 2 Int lets them learn 6 tricks, at least.

As for a 'very small' raptor, _Buitreraptor_ was about 4 feet, as was _Hesperonychus_. What are these new sizes ("big," "very small")?


----------



## Steinhauser (Dec 11, 2009)

> *Talon-Stab (Ex):* When a _Deinonychus_ makes a full attack against a foe it is grappling with, its talons attack at +6 melee for 2d6+3 damage.




This caught my attention. In order to complete its full attack action against a grappled (or any other) opponent, even with Improved Grab and Pounce, the Deinonychus would have to make its grapple check at -20 to hold the opponent while not being considered grappled itself. Otherwise, as soon as it grabs the opponent, it can only take actions normally allowed in a grapple, and only at the beginning of its NEXT turn. (An exception would be a talon-stab, if you consider it the same as a rake attack - it gets to make one for free as soon as it grapples).

If that's what you meant it to do, i would suggest changing the wording a bit:
*
Talon Stab (Ex): 
*Attack bonus +6 melee, damage 2d6+3. This attack works like a rake attack and deals piercing damage.

As it is now, I think it, and all the Maniraptors, are doing way too much damage. _Velociraptor_ is doing 2d6+2d3+1d8 damage on a charge. In my opinion the talons should be exclusively talon-stab attacks, not part of their regular attack action unless they grapple or charge.
 
1d6 bite for a turkey-sized _Velociraptor_? 1d3 bite/1d2 claw/1d6 talon stab is more believeable. I have trouble picturing _Deinonychus_ with more than 1d4 bite.

EDIT: Another thought. By default, Improved Grab only works on smaller opponents. If you want it to affect larger opponents too, you have to specify.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 12, 2009)

Gah! I just noticed I've left a few errors in the attack line, so will need to edit them.

I've also decided to have Track and Weapon Finesse as bonus feats. Actually, I had them bonus feats in the first place, but changed them at the last minute because the Small Raptors ended up with quite a high attack bonus from its Weapon Finesse, but upon reflection I think I'll put them back in and just cut their Dex a little. I've given it Weapon Focus (foreclaw) instead of Track.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 12, 2009)

Steinhauser said:


> Thanks. : )
> 
> I'll admit one of the bigger motivations for my change was to reduce them to 4th level animal companions. By the time I get to 7th level I'd be wanting a tiger or grizzly. (Or their prehistoric equivalents as they case may be.) If people wanted something more like JP raptors, I'd just advance them, or use a _Utahraptor_. I still think 3 HD and leopard-power attacks is the way to go - but, your call.




As I said earlier they are a exaggerated, but I wanted to keep them roughly in line with the SRD Deinonychus and Big Cats, which are more like their popular depictions as cinematic monsters than a realistic animal. I think the easiest way to solve the problem is say a 'realistic' maniraptor uses the stats of the next smaller variety.

Hmm, could say these are "Dire Raptors", I suppose, that might explain why they're so nasty. I'd need to give them a good Will save, though.



Steinhauser said:


> As for a 'very small' raptor, _Buitreraptor_ was about 4 feet, as was _Hesperonychus_. What are these new sizes ("big," "very small")?




I thought about _Buitreraptor_ but started to fear it was about as big as a _Velociraptor_, after coming across quotes of "turkey sized" and "10-15 kg" when I did a quick internet search to check its size. Having another look it does seem significantly smaller, so I'll stick it in.

As for the "new sizes", basically I'm doing stats for midway points between the official sizes, so a "Big" creature is a Medium-sized creature with half the Str and Con bonuses of a Large creature. It's just to add a bit more graduation into how large the animals are, so rather than having them double their length & Hit Dice each step they go up 50% or so.

The names I'm using are as follows, with the actual size and net strength adjustment in brackets:

*Fine *(Str -12)
*Diminutive *(Str -10)
*Tiny *(Str -8)
*Very Small *(Tiny, Str -6)
*Small *(Str -4)
*Little *(Small, Str -2)
*Medium* (Str +0)
*Big *(Medium, Str +4)
*Large *(Str +8)
*Very Large *(Large, Str +12)
*Huge* (Str +16)
*Enormous* (Huge, Str +20)
* Gargantuan* (Str +24)
*Titanic* (Gargantuan, Str +28)
* Colossal* (Str +32)
*Colossal+* (Colossal, Str +36)
*Epic* (Colossal, Str +40)


----------



## Cleon (Dec 12, 2009)

Steinhauser said:


> This caught my attention. In order to complete its full attack action against a grappled (or any other) opponent, even with Improved Grab and Pounce, the Deinonychus would have to make its grapple check at -20 to hold the opponent while not being considered grappled itself. Otherwise, as soon as it grabs the opponent, it can only take actions normally allowed in a grapple, and only at the beginning of its NEXT turn. (An exception would be a talon-stab, if you consider it the same as a rake attack - it gets to make one for free as soon as it grapples).





I think it's OK, since its Pounce is basically the same as a big cat's, which allows for a full attack without a grapple check penalty.




Steinhauser said:


> As it is now, I think it, and all the Maniraptors, are doing way too much damage. _Velociraptor_ is doing 2d6+2d3+1d8 damage on a charge. In my opinion the talons should be exclusively talon-stab attacks, not part of their regular attack action unless they grapple or charge.





I make it 1d6+2d3+1d8, where's the 2d6 from? Regular weapons only get an attack bonus on a charge, not double damage.

It is a lot of damage, but I wanted to keep it in line with the SRD big cats - a 3HD leopard does 1d6+3+4d3+4 (average 18.5), is about midway between  my 3HD _Dromaeosaurus's_ 1d6+1+2d3+1d8+1 (av. 14) and 4HD _Deinonychus's_ 1d8+2+2d4+2+2d6+3 (av. 23.5), a tiger's 2d8+12+2d6+3+2d8+6 pounce (av. 46!) is more or less exactly the same as my _Utahraptor's_ 2d6+6+2d6+6+3d6+9 (45.5), and considerably more than the 6HD _Achillobator's_ 2d4+4+2d4+4+2d8+6 pounce (av. 33).

So I think the damage is in keeping with the sample creatures I'm using as a baseline, it's not my fault the sample creatures are too vicious!

Anyhow, as I said earlier I think an easy solution is just to say a more realistic version of a Maniraptor uses the stats of the next stage down (_Dromaeosaurus_ for _Deinonychus_, _Achillobator _for _Utahraptor_, et cetera), and the provided stats take after the prehistoric monsters of cinema, pulp-fiction and comic books as much as they do nature.




Steinhauser said:


> EDIT: Another thought. By default, Improved Grab only works on smaller opponents. If you want it to affect larger opponents too, you have to specify.




That's a good point, I suspect everyone thinks it just follows normal grapple size limits. I'd better amend it.


----------



## Steinhauser (Dec 12, 2009)

"Dire Raptor." I like that. It's exactly what people want to hear when raptors come tearing through the trees.


----------



## hamishspence (Dec 23, 2009)

*Raptor stats*

The raptor stats look pretty good.

Though, going by weight and length, I'd say Achillobator, at least at full 16-18 ft size, probably works better as a low-end Large creature, with Utahraptor also Large, but with a bit more hit dice. 

Still, it can be used to represent deinonychosaurs midway between adult Deinonychus and adult Utahraptor.

Seems a bit quiet at the moment.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 23, 2009)

hamishspence said:


> The raptor stats look pretty good.
> 
> Though, going by weight and length, I'd say Achillobator, at least at full 16-18 ft size, probably works better as a low-end Large creature, with Utahraptor also Large, but with a bit more hit dice.
> 
> Still, it can be used to represent deinonychosaurs midway between adult Deinonychus and adult Utahraptor.




The genera names are as much placeholders as anything else, a particular species does not necessarily fit a particular size category terribly well so I'd allow a bit of "wiggle room".



hamishspence said:


> Seems a bit quiet at the moment.




Yes, it is disturbingly silent on this thread. I left the door on my super-raptor cage open, and they've been devouring anybody who's come into this thread to post.

*Ahem*

Honestly, I just haven't found time to do much more work on the Maniraptors, except for finishing off a couple at the "impossibly big" end of the scale to use for the (obsolete) model of _Megaraptor _and the various super-raptors that crop up in computer games.

I'm thinking about the smaller end of the 'Raptor scale now - the Diminutive and upwards. As well as regular "running raptors" I was thinking we could add subentries for "flapping raptors" that climb and glide in trees.

Did you see any of the reports about the paper claiming *Sinornithosaurus* was venomous? I will certainly be including that as an option for the Tiny (if not bigger) raptors!


----------



## hamishspence (Dec 24, 2009)

*Venom*

Now that looks interesting. Looks like the ideas of poisonous dinosaurs may not be so far-fetched, even if Spielberg overdid it a bit.

Also, going by this- 

http://www.world-science.net/othernews/091210_tawa

_Herrerasaurus_ looks to be a theropod after all- so it works as the type specimen for primitive theropods.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 25, 2009)

hamishspence said:


> Now that looks interesting. Looks like the ideas of poisonous dinosaurs may not be so far-fetched, even if Spielberg overdid it a bit.




Well it was Crichton who gave them poison, although you can still blame Spielberg for that _Dilophosaurus's_ frill.



hamishspence said:


> Also, going by this-
> 
> http://www.world-science.net/othernews/091210_tawa
> 
> _Herrerasaurus_ looks to be a theropod after all- so it works as the type specimen for primitive theropods.




Yes, I saw that in the newspapers a couple of weeks ago. It's wonderful that there are still people making important discoveries in the field.

We don't need to use _Herrerasaurus_ as a "typical primitive theropod" anyway, we can easily use something else - like _Coelophysis_, which I've already done 3E stats for.


----------



## hamishspence (Dec 31, 2009)

The ability to spit poison long distances was in the Crichton version- but Spielberg made the poison sticky and gooey as well, rather than like the way spitting snakes spit it- squirted through tiny holes in the front teeth.

Going by the description though, a poisoned bite rather than long-distance spitting seems more plausible for these newly discovered poisonous dinosaurs.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 31, 2009)

hamishspence said:


> The ability to spit poison long distances was in the Crichton version- but Spielberg made the poison sticky and gooey as well, rather than like the way spitting snakes spit it- squirted through tiny holes in the front teeth.
> 
> Going by the description though, a poisoned bite rather than long-distance spitting seems more plausible for these newly discovered poisonous dinosaurs.




Well I'd consider it rather speculative that they were venomous - you can't really say for sure what the groove on the teeth was for, or whether there was a venom-gland in that space in the jaw.

Still, for the purposes of this thread it makes sense to assume they're venomous, so we add a bit of variety to the maniraptors. The report quotes the paper's authors theorizing the venom was to weaken prey so they could be caught and killed more easily, so it sounds like it should be a Strength-damage venom.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 31, 2009)

Anyhow, getting back to the stats.

I've finished the first draft for the wee little maniraptors (those less than Small in size). I've fiddled with their ability scores a bit so they don't quite follow the "reverse Advancement" scheme, since they ended up with Strength and Constitution scores that didn't feel right if I used the standard pattern. (e.g. Str 5 and Con 12 for a Diminutive raptor!).

I've also cut their speed by 10 feet. Most Tiny creatures aren't as fast as their Medium-sized brethren.

As before, these are rather exaggerated creatures, almost 'dire raptors'. A realistic raptor would probably have the stats of the next size smaller (e.g. a Realistic Tiny Maniraptor could have the Diminutive Maniraptor's stats).

After mulling it over I also decided to have the "  A _Deinonychus_ can use either its Strength or its Dexterity bonus on Climb checks" apply to Jump checks as well, so that the wee little raptors can leap long distances too. This increases the Small and Medium sized raptors Jump modifier up by a point or two as well.

While working on them I had a charming idea... raptor swarms. No palaeontological justification for them, of course, but who could possibly complain about having hundreds of Diminutive raptors flocking through the jungle, devouring every animal in their path. I suspect they'll be a pygmy species of  _Sinornithosaurus_ and be venomous too boot.

Anyhow, I'll put the current 'mini raptor' stats in my next post, then edit the '*standard-sized maniraptors*' I did earlier to add the new Jump modifiers.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 31, 2009)

*Rough Draft Mini-Maniraptors*

*Diminutive Maniraptor (Epidexipteryx)*
*Late Jurassic (150 MYA)*
Diminutive Animal
*Hit* *Dice:* ¼d8 (1 hp)
*Initiative:* +4
*Speed:* 50 ft. (10 squares)
*Armor* *Class:* 18 (+4 size, +4 Dex), touch 18, flat-footed 14
*Base* *Attack/Grapple:* +0/–11 [_–15 without racial bonus_]
*Attack:* Bite +8 melee (1)
*Full* *Attack:* Bite +8 melee (1) and foreclaws +6 melee (1) and talons +6 melee (1d3-4)
*Space/Reach:* 1 ft./0 ft.
*Special* *Attacks:* Improved grab, talon-stab [_+8 melee 1d4-4_], pounce
*Special* *Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +2, Ref +6, Will +2
*Abilities:* Str 3, Dex 19, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 10
*Skills:* Balance +11, Climb +8, Hide +20* [_+24 in undergrowth_], Jump +16, Listen +8, Move Silently +8, Spot +8, Survival +6
*Feats:* Multiattack, Track (B), Weapon Finesse (B)
*Environment:* Warm forests or plains
*Organization:* Solitary, pair, or pack (3–6)
*Challenge* *Rating:* 1/4
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* —
*Level* *Adjustment:* —

6 inches tall, 18 inches, 8 ounces.

*Tiny Maniraptor (Bambiraptor)*
*Late Cretaceous (75 MYA)*
Tiny Animal
*Hit* *Dice:* ½d8 (2 hp)
*Initiative:* +4
*Speed:* 50 ft. (10 squares)
*Armor* *Class:* 16 (+2 size, +4 Dex), touch 16, flat-footed 12
*Base* *Attack/Grapple:* +0/–6 [_–10 without racial bonus_]
*Attack:* Bite +6 melee (1d4-3)
*Full* *Attack:* Bite +6 melee (1d4-3) and 2 foreclaws +4 melee (1d2-3) and talons +4 melee (1d4-3)
*Space/Reach:* 2½ ft./0 ft.
*Special* *Attacks:* Improved grab, talon-stab [_+6 melee 1d6-3_], pounce
*Special* *Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +2, Ref +6, Will +2
*Abilities:* Str 5, Dex 19, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 10
*Skills:* Balance +11, Climb +8, Hide +16* [_+20 in undergrowth_], Jump +16, Listen +8, Move Silently +8, Spot +8, Survival +6
*Feats:* Multiattack, Track (B), Weapon Finesse (B)
*Environment:* Warm forests or plains
*Organization:* Solitary, pair, or pack (3–6)
*Challenge* *Rating:* 1/3
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 1 HD (Tiny);
*Level* *Adjustment:* —

1 foot tall, 3 feet long, 2-3 pounds.

_Microraptor_ is a gliding version.

_Sinornithosaurus_ is a venomous version. [1d2 Str poison?]

*Very Small Maniraptor (Buitreraptor)*
*Late Cretaceous (75 MYA)*
Tiny Animal
*Hit* *Dice:* 1d8 (4 hp)
*Initiative:* +4
*Speed:* 50 ft. (10 squares)
*Armor* *Class:* 16 (+2 size, +4 Dex), touch 16, flat-footed 12
*Base* *Attack/Grapple:* +0/–5 [_–9 without racial bonus_]
*Attack:* Bite +6 melee (1d4-1)
*Full* *Attack:* Bite +6 melee (1d4-1) and 2 foreclaws +4 melee (1d2-1) and talons +4 melee (1d4-1)
*Space/Reach:* 2½ ft./0 ft.
*Special* *Attacks:* Improved grab, talon-stab [_+6 melee 1d6-1_], pounce
*Special* *Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +2, Ref +6, Will +2
*Abilities:* Str 8, Dex 19, Con 11, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 10
*Skills:* Balance +11, Climb +8, Hide +16* [_+20 in undergrowth_], Jump +16, Listen +8, Move Silently +8, Spot +8, Survival +6
*Feats:* Multiattack, Track (B), Weapon Finesse (B)
*Environment:* Warm forests or plains
*Organization:* Solitary, pair, or pack (3–6)
*Challenge* *Rating:* 1/2
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 2 HD (Small) 
*Level* *Adjustment:* —

4 feet long, 15 inches tall, 6-8 pounds.


----------



## hamishspence (Jan 18, 2010)

*Mini-raptors*

The mini-raptors look pretty good.

The thread seems to have been a bit quiet for a while.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 21, 2010)

hamishspence said:


> The mini-raptors look pretty good.
> 
> The thread seems to have been a bit quiet for a while.




Yes it does. I haven't been spending much time on the Dinos (too many other things cropping up), but I've got a Tiny Raptor Swarm that's pretty close to being ready for posting.

Besides that, is there anything else we could be working on.

I suppose we could talk about 'realistic' variant 'Raptors, like a "Speedy" version with small arms (e.g. an *Unenlagiinae* such as _Austroraptor_). We can just do those as a mini-template kind of thing.

Failing that, are their any other dinosaurs you'd be interesting in having a shot at, assuming we ever get these Maniraptors finished!


----------



## Cleon (Jan 24, 2010)

Okay, here's a mini-raptor swarm.

To kill two half-birds with one stone, the Maniraptors in the Swarm are half-winged "flapping raptors" with large feathers on their arms_._ These half-wings are not enough to let it glide, let alone fly, but it can use them to give itself enough lift to boost its climbing and slow its fall.

I also gave in to my temptation to make them venomous like that recent paper suggested _Sinornithosaurus_ was. Strength venom seemed the most appropriate, going by the authors' hypothesis it mainly served to weaken prey enough to be easily caught and killed.

An individual _Sinornithosaurus_ would have less deadly poison than a Swarm of microraptors, obviously. Probably only DC10 1d2/1d2 Str damage.

A "gliding raptor" like _Microraptor_ would have the same stats as a Tiny or Diminutive Raptor, except for different speeds - I'm thinking it would have been slower on the ground due to the awkwardness of the feathers (speed 40 ft?), but be a good climber like the "flapping raptor" (climb 20 ft?) as well as being able to glide through the air (3E doesn't seem to have any official rules for Gliding animals, but I suppose a 40 ft. fly speed with poor or clumsy manoeuvrability would be a good fit)

A "proto-bird" like _Archaeopteryx_ is not that different in appearance from a raptor, just with smaller toe-claws and well developed wings. I'd think its capabilities are different enough from a "flapping" or "gliding" raptor for it to merit its own stats. Indeed, I have a vague memory that WotC have already published 3E stats for it somewhere - maybe in a _Dragon_ magazine?


----------



## Cleon (Jan 24, 2010)

*Nanoraptor Swarm*

*Nanoraptor Swarm*
Tiny Animal (Swarm)
*Hit* *Dice:* 10d8 (45 hp)
*Initiative:* +4
*Speed:* 50 ft. (10 squares), climb 20 ft.
*Armor* *Class:* 16 (+2 size, +4 Dex), touch 16, flat-footed 12
*Base* *Attack/Grapple:* +7/–
*Attack:* Swarm 3d6
*Full* *Attack:* Swarm 3d6
*Space/Reach:* 2½ ft./0 ft.
*Special* *Attacks:* Distraction, poison, pounce, ripping talons [_DC19 Reflex or 5d6 swarm damage_]
*Special* *Qualities:* Flapping ascent, fluttering fall, Half damage from slashing and piercing, low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +7, Ref +13, Will +7
*Abilities:* Str 5, Dex 19, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 10
*Skills:* Balance +11, Climb +12, Hide +16* [_+20 in undergrowth_], Jump +20, Listen +16, Move Silently +8, Spot +16, Survival +9
*Feats:* Alertness, Lightning Reflexes, Iron Will, Skill Focus (Spot), Skill Focus (Survival), Track*(B)*, Weapon Finesse*(B)*
*Environment:* Warm forests
*Organization:* Solitary, wave of fangs (2-5) or deluge of talons (5-15)
*Challenge* *Rating:* 5
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* —
*Level* *Adjustment:* —

_A tiny bipedal animal like a cross between a scrawny chicken and a monitor lizard, with green-brown feathers and a foot-long tail. Its wiry forelimbs are half wing, half arm, with a spread of feathers and long, grasping claws. The innermost toe of each birdlike foot sports a vicious, oversized talon like a miniature sickle.
   The creature peers about alertly, snaps its shark-toothed jaws, and lets out a piercing whistle. Instantly, scores more of the miniscule beasts hop into sight and charge forward, flowing together into a hissing flood of fangs and talons._

Nanoraptors are an species of miniature Dromaeosaur unknown to earthly science. They live in large social groups that roam tropical jungles in flocks that can number in the hundreds. Nanoraptors are ravenous carnivores, a swarm will try to devour any prey it comes across from the size of a cricket to a rhinoceros. Individual nanoraptors may wander some distance from the main flock, if they come across any prey too large to tackle they return to alert their brethren.

A typical nanoraptoris about a foot tall and has a total length between 2 and 3 feet, almost half of which is tail. It only weighs a pound or two.
*
Combat
*A hunting flock of nanoraptors can display a disturbing grasp of tactics. If their scouts alert them to a powerful or elusive opponent they often set up ambushes or flanking manoeuvres to increase their chances of a kill. They often climb trees to drop upon their prey from above, or to avoid foes that outmatch them.

*Distraction (Ex):* Any living creature that begins its turn with a nanoraptor swarm in its space must succeed on a DC 15 Fortitude save or be nauseated for 1 round. The save DC is Constitution-based. 

*Flapping Ascent* *(Ex):* A nanoraptor can make a Run action while climbing by flapping its arm-wings to provide lift. A nanoraptor that takes a Run action while climbing makes a single Climb check at a –5 penalty, but may not take 10 on this check, and travels at four times its normal Climb speed (or five times, if it has the Run feat).

*Fluttering Fall* *(Ex):* Nanoraptors never take falling damage so long as they can move freely, since they can use their arm-wings to slow a fall.

*Poison (Ex):* Injury, Fortitude DC 15, initial and secondary damage 1d4 Str. The save DC is Constitution-based.

*Pounce* *(Ex):* If a nanoraptor swarm charges, it can make a full attack, allowing it to use its Ripping Talons special attack.

*Ripping Talons (Ex):* If a nanoraptor swarm makes a full-round attack all opponents it attacks must succeed at a DC19 Reflex save or take 5d6 damage from its swarm attack instead of 3d6. An opponent can use a standard action to substitute a Grapple check for the Reflex save to reduce the swarm damage. The save DC is Dexterity-based.
*
Skills
*A nanoraptor swarm has a +8 racial bonus on Climb, Balance and Jump checks and a +4 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot, and Survival checks. A nanoraptor swarm can use either its Strength or its Dexterity bonus on Climb and Jump checks, and may take 10 on Climb and Jump checks even if it is rushed or threatened.

*Its racial bonus to Hide increases to +8 in undergrowth.


----------



## hamishspence (Jan 28, 2010)

The nanoraptors are interesting- a bit like Jurassic Park 2 "compys" but with feathers.

The recent report on dinosaur pigmentation is also interesting- suggests that some of the smaller deinonychosaurs had striped tails. 

Though, given that colour can be distorted by fossilization, we don't know if orange/white stripes was their real pattern- it might have been dark/light stripes.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 29, 2010)

hamishspence said:


> The nanoraptors are interesting- a bit like Jurassic Park 2 "compys" but with feathers.




Well I was thinking they look more like a green chicken with lycanthropy. Indeed, I can imagine a group of NPCs running out of the jungle and screaming at the players "Run! Run! The alligator-chickens are coming!" 



hamishspence said:


> The recent report on dinosaur pigmentation is also interesting- suggests that some of the smaller deinonychosaurs had striped tails.
> 
> Though, given that colour can be distorted by fossilization, we don't know if orange/white stripes was their real pattern- it might have been dark/light stripes.




Yes, I was reading an article about that paper today too. Maybe I should add yellow streaks to the Nanoraptor swarm's description as a warning of their venom, like a hornet's stripes.


----------



## hamishspence (Feb 2, 2010)

*Hornets*

Black and orange patterning, a bit like the Japanese hornets, would be an interesting look.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 3, 2010)

hamishspence said:


> Black and orange patterning, a bit like the Japanese hornets, would be an interesting look.




It could suit a venomous variety, but I don't think it's worth nailing one of these "Generic" Maniraptors down to a set colour.

Moving on, I've finished a mini-template to convert a regular 'Raptor into an Unengalid-style raptor with little arms on the assumption that these were speedy "cheetahs" to the "lions" or "leopards" of regular Maniraptors:

EDIT: By the way, you may have noticed that the regular 'Raptors Weapon Focus (foreclaws) is a very inefficient use of a feat, giving them Improved Multiattack would give them a better attack bonus on their foreclaws and their talons.

Basically, I didn't want them to be more accurate with their talons once they'd made their grapple, so didn't want to give them Imp. Multiattack and remove all their secondary attack penalty.

Maybe I should switch the regular raptor's WF (foreclaws) into WF (bite)?

But I do like it as it is, with the 0/-1/-2 penalties putting the foreclaws in the middle accuracy-wise.

Any thoughts?

EDITED EDIT: Getting back to the "Speedy Raptors", I originally gave its Improved Grapple a +2 racial bonus (cut down from the regular 'Raptors +4), then I switched the racial bonus to its Trip, then gave both special attacks a +2 racial bonus before taking it out again! 

The Large speedy raptors has a Grapple/Trip modifier too low to reliably fell many dinosaurs its size, but I'm not sure whether that's a bug or a feature - if it's an animal that prey on smaller creatures, it'd be appropriate. If it makes a living chasing down Ornithomimid-sized prey it probably needs a small racial bonus.

I'm still undecided.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 3, 2010)

*Unengalid Dromaeosaurs or "Speedy Maniraptors"*

*Unengalid Maniraptors ("Speedy Raptors")*
The Unenlagiinae are a subfamily of Dromaeosaurs characterised by its particularly short arms, slim jaws and birdlike features. For the sake of this conversion we're assuming these are particularly swift animals that chase down their victims, but they aren't as well suited to tackling large prey - comparable to cheetahs instead of regular big cats.

Most known Unenlagids were modest sized animals between 4 and 7 feet long (Small or Very Small in size), but one genus, _Austroraptor_ reached an impressive 16 feet or so from nose to tail (a "Big Maniraptor" under the current scheme).

*Creating an Unengalid*
To create an Unengalid, take a standard Maniraptor and reduce its bite attack's damage by one stage and its foreclaw attacks' damage by two stages (e.g. a Medium-sized Unengalid would have a 1d6 bite damage like a Little _Dromaeosaurus_ and 1d3 foreclaw damage of a Small _Velociraptor_).

Replace the standard Maniraptor's Multiattack feat with the Run feat.

If the base maniraptor has Weapon Focus or Improved Natural Attack with its foreclaws, change this to Weapon Focus (bite) or Improved Natural Attack (bite).

Remove the standard Raptor's racial bonus to grapple checks. An Unengalid's lighter jaws and small arms make it less well suited for wrestling with prey.

Remove the standard Raptor's Pounce special attack.

Add the Trip special attack:

*Trip (Ex):* An Unengalid maniraptor that hits with a foreclaw or bite attack can attempt to trip the opponent as a free action without making a touch attack or provoking an attack of opportunity. If the attempt fails, the opponent cannot react to trip the 'raptor.

Finally, reduce the base Maniraptor's Challenge Rating to that of the next smallest stage (e.g. a Very Small Unengalid is CR 1/3 like a Tiny _Bambiraptor_), down to CR 1/6 for a Diminutive Unengalid. Unengalids lack of Pounce, Multiattack and weaker attacks make Unengalids much less effective combatants.

*Big Unengalid (Austroraptor)*
*Late Cretaceous* *(70* *MYA)*
Medium Animal
*Hit* *Dice:* 6d8+18 (45 hp)
*Initiative:* +3
*Speed:* 60 ft. (12 squares)
*Armor* *Class:* 16 (+3 Dex, +3 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 13
*Base* *Attack/Grapple:* +4/+8
*Attack:* Bite +9 melee (1d8+4)
*Full* *Attack:* Bite +9 melee (1d8+4) and 2 foreclaws +3 melee (1d3+2) and talons +3 melee (1d10+2)
*Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft.
*Special* *Attacks:* Improved grab, talon-stab [_+8 melee 2d8+6_], trip
*Special* *Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +8, Ref +8, Will +4
*Abilities:* Str 19, Dex 17, Con 16, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 10
*Skills:* Balance +11, Climb +8, Hide +12* [_+16 in undergrowth_], Jump +20, Listen +8, Move Silently +9, Spot +8, Survival +7
*Feats:* Run, Skill Focus (Hide), Track (B), Weapon Focus (bite)
*Environment:* Warm forests or plains
*Organization:* Solitary, pair, or pack (3–6)
*Challenge* *Rating:* 3
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 7 HD (Medium); 8-9 HD (Large)
*Level* *Adjustment:* —

_A lean birdlike animal that stands as tall as a large human on its back legs, with a long, stiff tail and short arms. Its hooked claws and sharp teeth mark it as a predator. The beast's entire body is covered in feather-like bristles in tan, yellow and white stripes, patterned to blend in with the tall prairie grass.
_
Unengalids are lean Dromaeosaurs with small arms and light jaws. While regular Dromaeosaurs are ambush predators who will attack prey several times their own size, the swift running Unengalids specialise in chasing down prey smaller than themselves.

Unengalids are mostly solitary hunters, although they do socialize in small family groups. They have a relatively large brain for a dinosaur, and sometimes learn to hunt in cooperative packs in areas where there is a shortage of the smaller prey animals they prefer.

The above stats represent _Austroraptor_, the largest known Unengalid. This lion-sized dinosaur is the only Unengalid big enough to consider Medium-sized creatures (such as most adventurers) as potential victims. Lesser Unengalids only pose a threat to pets, gnomes and livestock.

A typical _Austroraptor_ has a total length of 16 feet and stands 6 feet tall, with a weight of 300 pounds.
*
Combat
*An _Austroraptor_ tries to grapple prey and stab them with its rear talons as it claws and bites. The talons count as one attack. If its intended victim flees or puts up a fight, the dinosaur uses its Trip attack to try to put them in a disadvantageous position.

Note that an Unengalid can use either Improved Grab or Trip when it hits with a foreclaw or bite attack, but not both with the same attack. It can Trip and Grab in the same round if it hits with two or more foreclaw and bite attacks.

_Austroraptors_ are not as vicious as most big Dromaeosaurs, and will often retreat if their chosen victims make a stand instead of fleeing.

*Improved Grab (Ex): *To use this ability, an _Austroraptor_ must hit an opponent of any size with a bite or foreclaw attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can Talon-Stab.

*Talon-Stab (Ex):* When an _Austroraptor_ makes a full attack against a foe it is grappling with, its talons attack at +8 melee for 2d8+6 damage.

*Trip (Ex):* An _Austroraptor_ that hits with a foreclaw or bite attack can attempt to trip the opponent (+6 check modifier) as a free action without making a touch attack or provoking an attack of opportunity. If the attempt fails, the opponent cannot react to trip the 'raptor.
*
Skills
*An _Austroraptor_ has a +8 racial bonus on Balance and a +4 racial bonus on Climb, Hide, Jump, Listen, Move Silently, Spot, and Survival checks. An _Austroraptor_ can use either its Strength or its Dexterity bonus on Climb and Jump checks.

*Its racial bonus to Hide increases to +8 in undergrowth.
*
Different Sizes of Unengalids*
Here are stat blocks for the smaller varieties of Unengalid Dromaeosaurs, plus a block for an _Austroraptor_ advanced to Large size. These animals are too small to willingly attack Medium sized opponents such as adventurers, unless driven to by desperation or duress.

*Large Unengalid (Advanced Austroraptor)* (Large Animal, *Hit Dice:* 8d8+32 (68 hp); *Init:* +3; *Speed:*  60 ft. (12 squares); *AC:* 17 (–1 size, +3 Dex, +5 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 14; *Base Attack/Grapple:* +6/+16; *Attack:* Bite +12 melee (2d4+6); *Full Attack:* Bite +12 melee (2d4+6) and 2 foreclaws +6 melee (1d4+3) and talons +6 melee (2d6+3); *Space/Reach:* 10 ft./5 ft.; *Special Attacks:* Improved grab, talon-stab [_+11 melee 3d6+9_], trip [_+10_]; *Special Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent; *Saves:* Fort +10, Ref +9, Will +4; *Abilities:* Str 23, Dex 15, Con 18, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 10; *Skills:*Balance +11, Climb +10, Hide +10* [_+14 in undergrowth_], Jump +22, Listen +8, Move Silently +10, Spot +8, Survival +7; *Feats:* Run, Skill Focus (Hide), Track (B), Weapon Focus (bite); *CR:* 4)

*Big Unengalid* *(Austroraptor)* (Medium Animal, *Hit Dice:* 6d8+18 (45 hp); *Init:* +3; *Speed:*  60 ft. (12 squares); *AC:* 16 (+3 Dex, +3 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 13; *Base Attack/Grapple:* +4/+8; *Attack:* Bite +9 melee (1d8+4); *Full Attack:* Bite +9 melee (1d8+4) and 2 foreclaws +3 melee (1d3+2) and talons +3 melee (1d10+2); *Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft.; *Special Attacks:* Improved grab, talon-stab [_+8 melee 2d8+6_], trip [_+4_]; *Special Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent; *Saves:* Fort +8, Ref +8, Will +4; *Abilities:* Str 19, Dex 17, Con 16, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 10; *Skills:* Balance +11, Climb +8, Hide +12* [_+16 in undergrowth_], Jump +20, Listen +8, Move Silently +9, Spot +8, Survival +7; *Feats:* Run, Skill Focus (Hide), Track (B), Weapon Focus (bite); *CR:* 3)

*Medium Unengalid* (Medium Animal, *Hit Dice:* 4d8+8 (26 hp); *Init:* +3; *Speed:*  60 ft. (12 squares); *AC:* 16 (+3 Dex, +3 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 13; *Base Attack/Grapple:* +3/+5; *Attack:* Bite +7 melee (1d6+2); *Full Attack:* Bite +7 melee (1d6+2) and 2 foreclaws +1 melee (1d3+1) and talons +1 melee (1d8+1); *Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft.; *Special Attacks:* Improved grab, talon-stab [_+6 melee 2d6+3_], trip [_+2_]; *Special Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent; *Saves:* Fort +6, Ref +7, Will +3; *Abilities:* Str 15, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 10; *Skills:* Balance +11, Climb +7, Hide +8* [_+12 in undergrowth_], Jump +19, Listen +8, Move Silently +8, Spot +8, Survival +7; *Feats:* Run, Track (B), Weapon Finesse (B), Weapon Focus (bite); *CR:* 2)

*Little Unengalid* (Small Animal, *Hit Dice:* 3d8+3 (16 hp); *Init:* +3; *Speed:*  60 ft. (12 squares); *AC:* 16 (+1 size, +3 Dex, +2 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 13; *Base Attack/Grapple:* +2/–1; *Attack:* Bite +7 melee (1d6+1); *Full Attack:* Bite +7 melee (1d6+1) and 2 foreclaws +1 melee (1d2) and talons +1 melee (1d6); *Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft.; *Special Attacks:* Improved grab, talon-stab [_+6 melee 1d8+1_], trip [–_3_]; *Special Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent; *Saves:* Fort +4, Ref +6, Will +3; *Abilities:* Str 13, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 10; *Skills:* Balance +11, Climb +7, Hide +11* [_+15 in undergrowth_], Jump +19, Listen +8, Move Silently +8, Spot +8, Survival +7; *Feats:* Run, Track (B), Weapon Finesse (B), Weapon Focus (bite); *CR:* 1)

*Small Unengalid* (Small Animal, *Hit Dice:* 2d8+2 (11 hp); *Init:* +3; *Speed:*  60 ft. (12 squares); *AC:* 16 (+1 size, +3 Dex, +2 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 13; *Base Attack/Grapple:* +1/–3; *Attack:* Bite +5 melee (1d4); *Full Attack:* Bite +5 melee (1d4) and 2 foreclaws +0 melee (1d2) and talons +0 melee (1d6); *Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft.; *Special Attacks:* Improved grab, talon-stab [_+5 melee 1d8_], trip [_-4_]; *Special Qualities: *Low-light vision, scent; *Saves:* Fort +4, Ref +6, Will +2; *Abilities:* Str 11, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 10; *Skills:* Balance +11, Climb +7, Hide +11* [_+15 in undergrowth_], Jump +19, Listen +8, Move Silently +7, Spot +8, Survival +6; *Feats:* Run, Track (B), Weapon Finesse (B); *CR:* 1/2)

*Very Small Unengalid* (Tiny Animal, *Hit Dice:* 1d8 (4 hp); *Init:* +4; *Speed:*  50 ft. (10 squares); *AC:* 16 (+2 size, +4 Dex), touch 16, flat-footed 12; *Base Attack/Grapple:* +0/–9; *Attack:* Bite +6 melee (1d4-1); *Full Attack:* Bite +6 melee (1d4-1) and 2 foreclaws +1 melee (1) and talons +1 melee (1d4-1); *Space/Reach:* 2½ ft./0 ft.; *Special Attacks:* Improved grab, talon-stab [_+6 melee 1d6-1_], trip [_–9_]; *Special Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent; *Saves:* Fort +2, Ref +6, Will +2; *Abilities:* Str 8, Dex 19, Con 11, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 10; *Skills:* Balance +11, Climb +8, Hide +16* [_+20 in undergrowth_], Jump +16, Listen +8, Move Silently +8, Spot +8, Survival +6; *Feats:* Run, Track (B), Weapon Finesse (B); *CR:* 1/3)

*Tiny Unengalid* (Tiny Animal, *Hit Dice:* ½d8 (2 hp); *Init:* +4; *Speed:*  50 ft. (10 squares); *AC:* 16 (+2 size, +4 Dex), touch 16, flat-footed 12; *Base Attack/Grapple:* +0/–10; *Attack:* Bite +6 melee (1); *Full Attack:* Bite +6 melee (1) and 2 foreclaws +1 melee (1) and talons +1 melee (1d4-3); *Space/Reach:* 2½ ft./0 ft.; *Special Attacks:* Improved grab, talon-stab [_+6 melee 1d6-3_], trip [-11]; *Special Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent; *Saves:* Fort +2, Ref +6, Will +2; *Abilities:* Str 5, Dex 19, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 10; *Skills:* Balance +11, Climb +8, Hide +16* [_+20 in undergrowth_], Jump +16, Listen +8, Move Silently +8, Spot +8, Survival +6; *Feats:* Run, Track (B), Weapon Finesse (B); *CR:* 1/4)

*Diminutive Unengalid* (Diminutive Animal, *Hit Dice:* ¼d8 (1 hp); *Init:* +4; *Speed:*  50 ft. (10 squares); *AC:* 18 (+4 size, +4 Dex), touch 18, flat-footed 14; *Base Attack/Grapple:* +0/–15; *Attack:* Bite +8 melee (1); *Full Attack:* Bite +8 melee (1) and foreclaws +3 melee (1) and talons +3 melee (1d3-4); *Space/Reach:* 1 ft./0 ft.; *Special Attacks:* Improved grab, talon-stab [_+8 melee 1d4-4_], trip [-16]; *Special Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent; *Saves:* Fort +2, Ref +6, Will +2; *Abilities:* Str 3, Dex 19, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 10; *Skills:* Balance +11, Climb +8, Hide +20* [_+24 in undergrowth_], Jump +16, Listen +8, Move Silently +8, Spot +8, Survival +6; *Feats:* Run, Track (B), Weapon Finesse (B); *CR:* 1/6)


----------



## xidoraven (Feb 9, 2010)

*Sorry I have been gone and doing other things*

I apologize for going dark for so long - been putting a lot of things together and trying to make sure that I actually have a place to live and a project scope to put this work into.  I think we have a way that we can measure the progress here so far and look at some more goals in dinosaur creation and revision.  I think you have done a great job so far, and I think that we are very close to at least the halfway marker of statting up all the critters on my index list.  If we look at how many of the creatures listed you already have outline, I can cross off the ones mentioned in stats or as variant/congruent stats (like those mentioned as secondary names of creatures within the stat block description).  Also, if there are names of creatures that I do not have listed on the index, they can be added to make the list comprehensive.

I am also noticing that the thread focuses mostly on dinosaurs so far.  I think some very good precendents have been set with some of the converted prehistoric animals right here on ENWorld, and of course some of the original indexed materials have multiple versions of stats which can be eliminated down to logical proportions.

I also think it is important at this point to mention that if a creature is "not known to earthly science" like the Nanoraptor, it needs to have a stat somewhere listed (like with its earth era or something) saying that it is a fictional animal.  I will show you my method of order in the final bestiary listing, so you can see how they will fall into place in final print.

Animal, Common
Animal, Dinosaur
Animal, Dire (plus Dire Template for separate Templates segment in the appendices)
Animal, Fictional
Animal, Prehistoric
Vermin (and Giant Variants)

Because of the setting focus on animals, beasts and this sort of idea, these stats will go before all of the other fantasy creatures, as they are the basis of the setting's overall ecology.  I am considering placing templates in a section between Animals and Fantasy Creatures, instead of at the end of the publication.

Every creature will be placed in an environment-oriented set of region(s) in a map of the world - Nym - along with a thumbnail of the map to show that region visually.  Every applicable creature will need Familiar, Companion, Mount, Training/Rearing, and similar information - as well as a nickname or series of cultural names and to what general flock or ecological circle they belong (these were the strange 'category' descriptors I was using - which a primitive simple society might use to describe the nature of the animal).  Many creatures will get pictures, hopefully at least one from every category of similar creatures that you have thus far developed.

All of the player races have been listed and finalized for the setting...  Not sure if that would help you while you're writing this stuff, but it is finalized for review before final edits and publication on at least that part.  I am currently working on classes, and rounding out the final composition of the prints as I envisioned them.  I am also wrist deep in making a good decent logo for the campaign setting concept, so that I can market it as soon as possible.  Cover art is in place for final edits, and I am making sure to get people who use online usernames to let me know what name they would actually like listed in the Special Thanks section and contributors...  Which means I will ask both of you as well how you would like to be listed - either by ENWorld username (site link) or real name.  My preference is for real names instead of aliases, but whatever works for you as a contributor.  I am going to push full force to have everything written here revised to Pathfinder RPG rules and submit for publication within the next year (so my goal date should be Feb. 1, 2011...   ).

Thoughts?  Input?  Cross-offs?  Adds?  ....*sniffles* Support? *sobs*  I could use a hug right now...  I feel like I am the only one in my life who cares about these projects, and you all are the only ones who get where I am going with this and why I am pushing so hard to try and make it work out.  I think we can do it - I really do.  I have a few people who are willing to do some artworks when possible, and even someone who might be willing to host an art contest for prehistoric oriented creature illustrations - including fantasy critters and themed beasties.

If you ever think I have gone dark for too long and need my input on something or just to poke/nudge me, send me an email, okay?  xidoraven(a)yahoo(dot)com
-will


----------



## Cleon (Feb 13, 2010)

xidoraven said:


> I apologize for going dark for so long - been putting a lot of things together and trying to make sure that I actually have a place to live and a project scope to put this work into.  I think we have a way that we can measure the progress here so far and look at some more goals in dinosaur creation and revision.  I think you have done a great job so far, and I think that we are very close to at least the halfway marker of statting up all the critters on my index list.  If we look at how many of the creatures listed you already have outline, I can cross off the ones mentioned in stats or as variant/congruent stats (like those mentioned as secondary names of creatures within the stat block description).  Also, if there are names of creatures that I do not have listed on the index, they can be added to make the list comprehensive.
> 
> I am also noticing that the thread focuses mostly on dinosaurs so far.  I think some very good precendents have been set with some of the converted prehistoric animals right here on ENWorld, and of course some of the original indexed materials have multiple versions of stats which can be eliminated down to logical proportions.




Well I'm game to stat some non-dinosaurs once I've finished off the Maniraptors. That shouldn't take long, I was just going to formalize the semi-winged flying and gliding varieties.

However that's an awful wide range of beasties in the index, so is there any particular creature or time period you feel needs fleshing out?

Cretaceous Marine Monsters?
Pre-Dinosaur Mammal-like Reptiles?
The Mammalian Megafauna?
Giant Scorpions?



xidoraven said:


> I also think it is important at this point to mention that if a creature is "not known to earthly science" like the Nanoraptor, it needs to have a stat somewhere listed (like with its earth era or something) saying that it is a fictional animal.  I will show you my method of order in the final bestiary listing, so you can see how they will fall into place in final print.




Yes that makes sense, so far I haven't been posting that many fictional prehistoric beasts. I'll try to remember to specify this in their entries.



xidoraven said:


> Animal, Common
> Animal, Dinosaur
> Animal, Dire (plus Dire Template for separate Templates segment in the appendices)
> Animal, Fictional
> ...




I'd be tempted to add in a few Order-level categories such as "Bird", "Fish" or "Mammal" there, but the basics look alright.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 13, 2010)

Here's the full stats for the "Winged Raptors", which just about does it for the Maniraptors as far as I'm concerned.

I've also thrown in a couple of Cretaceous marine critters I had lying around on my hard-drive, just to keep you going. I reckon they're both "Animals, Prehistoric" according to Xidoraven's criteria.

Does anyone (notably Xidoraven) have a particular prehistoric creature they'd like me to have a go at?

If I was to continue with the dinosaurs, I'd fancy doing a herbivore next - either Ceratopsians or Iguanodons.

Any preferences?


----------



## Cleon (Feb 13, 2010)

*Winged Maniraptors*

*Winged Maniraptors*
A few of the smallest species of Maniraptors have wing-like fans of feathers on their arms, legs and tail that allow them to glide through the air like a flying squirrel. _Microraptor_ is a typical example. Some Maniraptors such as _Rahonavis_ may even have had fully functional wings.

In either case, they still retained well developed foreclaws and toothy jaws.

To create a typical winged maniraptors, apply the following changes to a Diminutive or Tiny Unengalid Maniraptor. For a more spectacular but unrealistic "flying killer" use a larger standard Maniraptor as the base creature.

Reduce Speed by 10 ft.

Increase the racial bonus on Jump checks to +8.

Replace the Run feat with Flyby Attack. If you used a regular Maniraptor as the base creature replace the Multiattack feat if the 'raptor has fewer than 3 Hit Dice or the Weapon Focus (foreclaw) feat if it has 3 or more Hit Dice.

For a *Flying Maniraptor*, add a 40 foot fly speed (poor manoeuvrability)

For a *Gliding Maniraptor*, add the following special quality:

*Gliding (Ex):* A _Microraptor_ can use its wing-like arms and legs to glide, negating any damage from a fall of any height and allowing travel 20 feet horizontally for every 5 feet of descent. A _Microraptor_ glides at a fly speed of 40 feet (clumsy manoeuvrability).

*Examples of Winged Raptors*
The following stat-blocks are for crow- and hawk-sized winged Maniraptors of both gliding and flying varieties, which should cover all plausible prehistoric examples, as well as the cinematic *Winged Dromaeosaurus* (A Little Maniraptor with the Flying mini-template) and *Winged Austroraptor* (a Big Unengalid Maniraptor with the Gliding mini-template).

*Diminutive Gliding Unengalid* (Diminutive Animal, *Hit Dice:* ¼d8 (1 hp); *Init:* +4; *Speed:*  40 ft. (8 squares), fly 40 ft. (clumsy)[_gliding_]; *AC:* 18 (+4 size, +4 Dex), touch 18, flat-footed 14; *Base Attack/Grapple:* +0/–15; *Attack:* Bite +8 melee (1); *Full Attack:* Bite +8 melee (1) and foreclaws +3 melee (1) and talons +3 melee (1d3-4); *Space/Reach:* 1 ft./0 ft.; *Special Attacks:* Improved grab, talon-stab [_+8 melee 1d4-4_], trip [-16]; *Special Qualities:* Gliding, low-light vision, scent; *Saves:* Fort +2, Ref +6, Will +2; *Abilities:* Str 3, Dex 19, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 10; *Skills:* Balance +11, Climb +8, Hide +20* [_+24 in undergrowth_], Jump +16, Listen +8, Move Silently +8, Spot +8, Survival +6; *Feats:* Flyby Attack, Track (B), Weapon Finesse (B); *CR:* 1/6)

*Tiny Gliding Unengalid (Microraptor)* (Tiny Animal, *Hit Dice:* ½d8 (2 hp); *Init:* +4; *Speed:* 40 ft. (8 squares), fly 40 ft. (clumsy)[_gliding_]; *AC:* 16 (+2 size, +4 Dex), touch 16, flat-footed 12; *Base Attack/Grapple:* +0/–10; *Attack:* Bite +6 melee (1); *Full Attack:* Bite +6 melee (1) and 2 foreclaws +1 melee (1) and talons +1 melee (1d4-3); *Space/Reach:* 2½ ft./0 ft.; *Special Attacks:* Improved grab, talon-stab [_+6 melee 1d6-3_], trip [-11]; *Special Qualities:* Gliding, low-light vision, scent; *Saves:* Fort +2, Ref +6, Will +2; *Abilities:* Str 5, Dex 19, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 10; *Skills:* Balance +11, Climb +8, Hide +16* [_+20 in undergrowth_], Jump +16, Listen +8, Move Silently +8, Spot +8, Survival +6; *Feats:* Flyby Attack, Track (B), Weapon Finesse (B); *CR:* 1/4)

*Diminutive Flying Unengalid (Rahonavis)* (Diminutive Animal, *Hit Dice:* ¼d8 (1 hp); *Init:* +4; *Speed:*  40 ft. (8 squares), fly 40 ft. (poor); *AC:* 18 (+4 size, +4 Dex), touch 18, flat-footed 14; *Base Attack/Grapple:* +0/–15; *Attack:* Bite +8 melee (1); *Full Attack:* Bite +8 melee (1) and foreclaws +3 melee (1) and talons +3 melee (1d3-4); *Space/Reach:* 1 ft./0 ft.; *Special Attacks:* Improved grab, talon-stab [_+8 melee 1d4-4_], trip [-16]; *Special Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent; *Saves:* Fort +2, Ref +6, Will +2; *Abilities:* Str 3, Dex 19, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 10; *Skills:* Balance +11, Climb +8, Hide +20* [_+24 in undergrowth_], Jump +16, Listen +8, Move Silently +8, Spot +8, Survival +6; *Feats:* Flyby Attack, Track (B), Weapon Finesse (B); *CR:* 1/6)

*Tiny Flying Unengalid* (Tiny Animal, *Hit Dice:* ½d8 (2 hp); *Init:* +4; *Speed:* 40 ft. (8 squares), fly 40 ft. (poor); *AC:* 16 (+2 size, +4 Dex), touch 16, flat-footed 12; *Base Attack/Grapple:* +0/–10; *Attack:* Bite +6 melee (1); *Full Attack:* Bite +6 melee (1) and 2 foreclaws +1 melee (1) and talons +1 melee (1d4-3); *Space/Reach:* 2½ ft./0 ft.; *Special Attacks:* Improved grab, talon-stab [_+6 melee 1d6-3_], trip [-11]; *Special Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent; *Saves:* Fort +2, Ref +6, Will +2; *Abilities:* Str 5, Dex 19, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 10; *Skills:* Balance +11, Climb +8, Hide +16* [_+20 in undergrowth_], Jump +16, Listen +8, Move Silently +8, Spot +8, Survival +6; *Feats:* Flyby Attack, Track (B), Weapon Finesse (B); *CR:* 1/4)

*Winged Dromaeosaurus (Little Flying Maniraptor)* (Small Animal, *Hit Dice:* 3d8+3 (16 hp); *Init:* +3; *Speed:*  50 ft. (10 squares), fly 40 ft. (poor); *AC:* 16 (+1 size, +3 Dex, +2 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 13; *Base Attack/Grapple:* +2/+3 [_–1 without racial bonus_]; *Attack:* Bite +6 melee (1d6+1); *Full Attack:* Bite +6 melee (1d6+1) and 2 foreclaws +4 melee (1d3) and talons +4 melee (1d6); *Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft.; *Special Attacks:* Improved grab, talon-stab [_+6 melee 1d8+1_], pounce; *Special Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent; *Saves:* Fort +4, Ref +6, Will +3; *Abilities:* Str 13, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 10; *Skills:* Balance +11, Climb +7, Hide +11* [_+15 in undergrowth_], Jump +19, Listen +8, Move Silently +8, Spot +8, Survival +7; *Feats:* Flyby Attack, Multiattack, Track (B), Weapon Finesse (B); *CR:* 2)

*Winged Austroraptor (Big Gliding Unengalid)* (Medium Animal, *Hit Dice:* 6d8+18 (45 hp); *Init:* +3; *Speed:*  50 ft. (10 squares), fly 40 ft. (clumsy)[_gliding_]; *AC:* 16 (+3 Dex, +3 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 13; *Base Attack/Grapple:* +4/+8; *Attack:* Bite +9 melee (1d8+4); *Full Attack:* Bite +9 melee (1d8+4) and 2 foreclaws +3 melee (1d3+2) and talons +3 melee (1d10+2); *Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft.; *Special Attacks:* Improved grab, talon-stab [_+8 melee 2d8+6_], trip [_+4_]; *Special Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent; *Saves:* Fort +8, Ref +8, Will +4; *Abilities:* Str 19, Dex 17, Con 16, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 10; *Skills:* Balance +11, Climb +8, Hide +12* [_+16 in undergrowth_], Jump +20, Listen +8, Move Silently +9, Spot +8, Survival +7; *Feats:* Flyby Attack, Skill Focus (Hide), Track (B), Weapon Focus (bite); *CR:* 3)


----------



## Cleon (Feb 13, 2010)

*Tusoteuthis*

*Tusoteuthis (Prehistoric Giant Squid)*
Large Animal (Aquatic)
*Hit* *Dice:* 6d8+12 (39 hp)
*Initiative:* +3
*Speed:* Swim 60 ft. (12 squares)
*Armour* *Class:* 15 (–1 size, +3 Dex, +3 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 12
*Base* *Attack/Grapple:* +4/+15 [_+1 per 2 limbs_]
*Attack:* Tentacles +7 melee (1d4+3)
*Full* *Attack:* Tentacles +7 melee (1d4+3) and 8 arms +4 melee (1) and bite +4 melee (1d10+1)
*Space/Reach:* 10 ft./5 ft. (15 ft. with tentacles, 10 ft. with arms)
*Special* *Attacks:* Constrict, gnawing beak, improved grab
*Special* *Qualities:* DR 5/slashing or piercing, Ink cloud, jet, superior low-light vision
*Saves:* Fort +7, Ref +8, Will +3
*Abilities:* Str 16, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
*Skills:* Listen +7, Spot +12, Swim +12
*Feats:* Weapon Focus (tentacles), Blind-Fight, Endurance, MultiattackB
*Environment:* Warm aquatic
*Organization:* Solitary
*Challenge* *Rating:* 3
*Advancement:* 7–9 HD (Large); 10–12 HD (Huge)
*Level* *Adjustment:* —

_Tusoteuthis _is an type of giant squid that lived in the warm, shallow seas of the Cretaceous. They are not closely related to the modern-day giant squid.

A typical _Tusoteuthis _is 20 feet or so from tailfin to tentacle-tip and weighs around 500 pounds. Its body is about 6 feet long, but its tentacles exceed 10 feet in length.

*Combat
*A _Tusoteuthis _giant squid seizes hold of prey with its tentacles, then secures them in its arms and bites with its beak. If threatened it jets away, maybe covering its escape with a cloud of ink.

A _Tusoteuthis_ has an arm reach equal to a tall creature of its size, and a tentacle reach equal to its space plus its base reach, so 15 feet for a Large _Tusoteuthis_ and 25 feet for a Huge one.

[_note a lot of the previous is highly speculative, it's quite possible Tusoteuthis had tentacles as short or shorter than its arms, or even no tentacles at all, as it may have belonged to the Vampyromorphida._]

*Constrict* *(Ex):* A _Tusoteuthis _deals automatic arm or tentacle damage with a successful grapple check.

*Improved* *Grab* *(Ex):* To use this ability, a giant squid must hit an opponent of any size with a tentacle or arm attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict.

A _Tusoteuthis _has a +4 racial bonus to grapple checks with its tentacles, with an additional bonus of 1 per two arms or tentacles it is holding its opponent with. If it hits a target with multiple limbs as part of a full attack routine it only makes one grapple check to resolve the hold.

*Gnawing* *Beak* *(Ex):* If a _Tusoteuthis _seeks to bite an opponent it is grappling, the attack is resolved as a primary attack (bite +7 melee for 1d10+3 damage).

*Ink* *Cloud* *(Ex):* A _Tusoteuthis _can emit a cloud of jet-black ink 10 feet high by 10 feet wide by 20 feet long once per minute as a free action. The cloud provides total concealment, which the squid normally uses to escape a losing fight. All vision within the cloud is obscured.

*Jet* *(Ex):* A giant squid can jet backward once per round as a full-round action, at a speed of 400 feet. It must move in a straight line, but does not provoke attacks of opportunity while jetting.

*Superior Low-Light Vision (Ex):* A giant squid can see five times as far as a human can in dim light.

*Skills*
Giant squids' huge eyes give them a +8 racial bonus to Spot checks. A giant squid has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard and can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 13, 2010)

*Xiphactinus*

*Xiphactinus*
*Middle to Late Cretaceous (115-70 Million Years Ago)
*Large Animal (Aquatic)
*Hit Dice:* 7d8+14 (45 hp)
*Initiative:* +1
*Speed:* Swim 60 ft. (12 squares)
*Armor Class:* 15 (–1 Size, +1 Dex. +5 Natural), touch 10, flat-footed 14
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +5/+13
*Attack:* Bite +8 melee (1d8+6)
*Full Attack:* Bite +8 melee (1d8+6)
*Space/Reach:* 10 ft./5 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Improved grab, swallow whole
*Special Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +7, Ref +6, Will +3
*Abilities:* Str 18, Dex 13, Con 15, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2*
Skills:* Listen +5, Spot +5, Jump +16, Swim +12
*Feats:* Endurance, Diehard
*Environment:* Warm Aquatic
*Organization:* Solitary or school (2-20)
*Challenge Rating:* 3
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 8-11 HD (Large); 12-14 HD (Huge)
*Level Adjustment:* —

_A great fish at least as long as two tall humans. Its powerful torpedo-shaped body ends in a crescent-moon tail, while its ugly slab of a face has bulldog jaws crammed with spiky fangs._

A _Xiphactinus_ is a giant predatory fish that was a common apex predator of the shallow Cretaceous seas. They  resemble an oversized fanged tarpon (_Megalops_), although they are not actually related to that fish.

A typical adult specimen is 12-14 feet and weighs about 1200 pounds, the largest _Xiphactinus_ can reach 20 feet long and weigh 5000 pounds or so.

*Combat*
_Xiphactinus_ are ferocious predators, attacking anything they think they can eat. A _Xiphactinus_ only attacks prey small enough for it to swallow, since its jaws are designed for seizing victims, not tearing them into bite-sized chunks. Unfortunately, most _Xiphactinus _are large enough to swallow Medium-sized creatures such as adventurers. They are so voracious they sometimes swallow victims too dangerous for them, and are killed by their prey's struggles in their stomach.*

Improved Grab (Ex): *To use this ability, a _Xiphactinus_ must hit a smaller opponent with a bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can swallow whole.

*Swallow Whole (Ex):* A _Xiphactinus_ can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of a smaller size than itself by making a successful grapple check. Once inside, the opponent takes 1d8+4 points of crushing damage plus 4 points of acid damage per round. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal 15 points of damage to the stomach (AC 12). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out. A _Xiphactinus’s_ interior can hold 1 Medium, 4 Small, 16 Tiny, 64 Diminutive or 256 Fine opponents.

*Skills*
A _Xiphactinus_ has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 31, 2010)

I'm sure those amongst us with a passion for dinosaurs have heard of the *recent discovery* of _Balaur bondoc_, the Romanian "kickboxing" or "stocky" Maniraptor.

This is just begging for 3rd edition stats.

I was going to post this on the *prehistoric beasts* thread, but that's at 52 pages so I didn't want to risk the boards by lengthening it.

If it was up to me I'd either tweak around the stats of a Medium-sized Maniraptor like the SRD's erroneously oversized _Velociraptor_ or do it as a Dire Animal.

Hmm, I've been planning to do a "Dire Raptor" for some time... 

EDIT: Posted a take on _Balaur bondoc_. Hopefully I'll get a Dire Velociraptor done in a few days.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 1, 2010)

*Double-Taloned Maniraptor (Balaur bondoc)*

*Double-Taloned Maniraptors*
Inspired by _Balaur bondoc_, an unusual Maniraptor with a robust build and two "killing talons" on each hind foot (on the 1st and 2nd toes, unlike standard Maniraptors which only have a killing claw on the 2nd hind toe). Its foreclaws are smaller and less flexible, which might indicate it favoured using its feet to grapple prey.

 *Creating a Double-Taloned Maniraptor*
To create a Double-Taloned Maniraptor, take a *standard Maniraptor* of the desired size and apply the following changes: 

Increase its Strength and Constitution by +2.

Lower its Dexterity by -2.

Reduce its foreclaw damage by a step (e.g. 1d4 to 1d3), and increase its talons and talon-stab damage by half a step (e.g. 1d8 to 1d10, or 2d6 to 2d8). Add talons to its Attack line.

Increase its natural armour bonus by +1

Reduce its speed by 20 ft.

A Double-Taloned Maniraptor's racial bonus to Climb and Jump checks increases to +8. It  can use either its Strength or its Dexterity bonus on Climb and Jump checks.
 
A Double-Taloned Maniraptor's racial bonus to Hide checks increases to +12 when in it is heavy vegetation or undergrowth.

A Double-Taloned Maniraptor gains Skill Focus (Jump) as a bonus feat and has Weapon Focus (talons) instead of Weapon Focus (foreclaws).

A Double-Taloned Maniraptor's Improved Grab special attack changes to the following:
*
Improved Grab (Ex): *To use this ability, a Double-Taloned Maniraptor must hit an opponent of any size with a bite or talons attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can Talon-Stab.

A Double-Taloned Maniraptor has a +4 racial bonus to grapple checks.
*
Medium Double-Taloned Maniraptor (Balaur bondoc)*
*Late Cretaceous (80-70 MYA)*
Medium Animal
*Hit* *Dice:* 4d8+12 (30 hp)
*Initiative:* +2
*Speed:* 40 ft. (8 squares)
*Armor* *Class:* 16 (+2 Dex, +4 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 14
*Base* *Attack/Grapple:* +3/+10 [_+6 without racial bonus_]
*Attack:* Talons +7 melee (1d10+3) or bite +6 melee (1d8+3)
 *Full* *Attack:* Bite +6 melee (1d8+3) and talons +5 melee (1d10+1) and 2 foreclaws +4 melee (1d3+1) 
*Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft.
*Special* *Attacks:* Improved grab, talon-stab [_+7 melee 2d8+4_], pounce
*Special* *Qualities:* Low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +6, Ref +6, Will +3
*Abilities:* Str 17, Dex 15, Con 16, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 10
*Skills:* Balance +10, Climb +10, Hide +7* [_+15 in undergrowth_], Jump +19, Listen +8, Move Silently +7, Spot +8, Survival +7
*Feats:* Multiattack, Skill Focus (Jump) (B), Track (B), Weapon Focus (talons)
*Environment:* Warm forests or plains
*Organization:* Solitary, pair, or pack (3–6)
*Challenge* *Rating:* 3
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 5-6 HD (Medium)
*Level* *Adjustment:* —

A _Balaur_ is bright green along its back and flanks, with a much lighter shade of the same colour on its underside. The body has darker spots or stripes. Its tail extends straight out behind itself, held aloft by an intricate structure of bony supports, thus allowing its weight to be carried entirely by the back legs.

A _Balaur_ has a total length of about 10-12 feet and stands some 4 feet tall, with a weight between 125 and 200 pounds.
*
Combat
* A _Balaur_ uses a combination of speed, grasping forearms, large teeth, and hind legs with ripping talons. It hunts by stalking and ambush, launching an attack once it's close enough to pounce. _Balaur_ are excellent climbers, and have been known to hide in trees and leap down upon their prey. The talons count as one attack. A _Balaur_ has a relatively large brain for a dinosaur, and its pack hunts with cunning tactics.

*Pounce* *(Ex):* If a _Balaur_ charges, it can make a full attack, including a Talon-Stab if its Improved Grab succeeds.
*
Improved Grab (Ex): *To use this ability, a _Balaur_ must hit an opponent of any size with a bite or talons attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can Talon-Stab.

A _Balaur_ has a +4 racial bonus to grapple checks.

*Talon-Stab (Ex):* When a _Balaur_ makes a full attack against a foe it is grappling with, its talons attack at +7 melee for 2d8+4 damage.
*
Skills
*A _Balaur_ has a +8 racial bonus on Balance, Climb and Jump checks and a +4 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot, and Survival checks. A _Balaur_ can use either its Strength or its Dexterity bonus on Climb and Jump checks.

*Its racial bonus to Hide increases to +12 in undergrowth.


----------



## hamishspence (Jan 18, 2011)

*Interesting*

It's been a while since I've posted- but the double-taloned maniraptor template is definitely interesting.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 19, 2011)

hamishspence said:


> It's been a while since I've posted- but the double-taloned maniraptor template is definitely interesting.




Nice to see a new post, I was afraid this thread had completely fossilized!

Any interest in seeing another group of dinosaurs? I'd like to do one of the herbivores, probably the Horned Dinosaurs (Ceratopsians).


----------



## hamishspence (Jan 19, 2011)

*Ceratopsians and their kin.*

Some ceratopsians were bipedal, and looked a bit like pachycepholosaurs, their nearest relatives.

And they could get pretty small- the smallest all seem to be around 2 ft long.

Maybe there could be a "armour-headed dinosaur" group- bipedal and quadrupedal- ranging from Tiny to high-end Large for bipeds, and Small to high-end Huge for quadrupeds?

With modifications for horns (triple, single, or just a heavy lump rather than long horns.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 22, 2011)

hamishspence said:


> Some ceratopsians were bipedal, and looked a bit like pachycepholosaurs, their nearest relatives.
> 
> And they could get pretty small- the smallest all seem to be around 2 ft long.
> 
> Maybe there could be a "armour-headed dinosaur" group- bipedal and quadrupedal- ranging from Tiny to high-end Large for bipeds, and Small to high-end Huge for quadrupeds?




Well as far as their 3E stats go I was thinking the bipedal Ceratopsians wouldn't be much different (if at all) from a "Generic Herbivorous Dinosaur". Maybe with a more powerful bite, but not much else.

Anyhow, I think we're better off concentrating on the quadrupedal ones to begin with. I've already got a *updated Triceratops* based on the SRD version which I think will serve well as the foundation of an _Enormous_ Ceratopsian (e.g. "Huge and a Half"). Then it's just a question of scaling them down from there and picking some appropriate species.

e.g.:

*Small Ceratopsian *1 HD, Str 6
*Little** Ceratopsian*2 HD, Str 8
*Medium** Ceratopsian* 3 HD, Str 10
*Big** Ceratopsian*4 HD, Str 14
*Large** Ceratopsian*6 HD, Str 18
*Very Large** Ceratopsian* 8 HD, Str 22
*Huge** Ceratopsian* 12 HD, Str 26
*Enormous** Ceratopsian* 16 HD, Str 30

Hmm, those Strength seem too low for the smaller varieties. I think I'd better tweak it up by Str +2 across the board.



hamishspence said:


> With modifications for horns (triple, single, or just a heavy lump rather than long horns.




I'm not sure what difference, if any, there should be in the D&D stats of a 3-horned Ceratopsian and a 1-horned one. They will both do gore damage with their main attack. The lump-faced ones would do slam attacks instead.

That reminds me, I did wonder about giving them a Bite attack (Ceratopsians had enormous jaw muscles, sharp beaks and jaws full of shearing teeth, so their mouths were like big serrated scissors. They could probably have bitten smaller theropods to death with little difficulty.)

However, a gore attack can also cover that kind of slashing/slicing bite, is in the case of the SRD Boars, so I think gore alone will cover the jaws as well as the horns.

That raises the possibility that the lump-faced have a choice between gore and slam for their attack.

Another thing I am considering is giving the larger Hornfaces some DR/-, since they were probably pretty tough beasts.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 12, 2016)

Noticed a couple of errors in the attack modifiers of the Double-Taloned Maniraptors (they were a point or two too high).

Also noticed some formatting problems with the main Maniraptor entry.

I've corrected them.

EDIT: Also noticed that the Small Maniraptor had the wrong Dexterity in its ability line - Dex 19 when it should have Dex 17 like the Little Maniraptor (which is why all its Dex-based abilities are based on a +3 Dex modifier).

That's been corrected too.


----------

