# Grumpy RPG Reviews - Blacks in Gaming



## Grumpy RPG Reviews (Dec 19, 2011)

New Episodes!
Episode 55: Blacks in Gaming (Episode 55 ends with a challenge for D&D 5E/Next.)

I run a series of mostly podcast reviews of RPG reviews and columns,   though the last 15 episodes are in video format as well. They are mostly   done in the character of the Grumpy Celt, which is what I would be  were I a fictional character and knew myself to be a fictional  character.

_This thread was part of an ongoing series, but the discussion of Blacks in Gaming took on a life of its own. As a result, I've slid that conversation out to this thread. -- Piratecat_


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## Grumpy RPG Reviews (Feb 22, 2012)

Episode 55: Blacks in Gaming


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## Dannyalcatraz (Feb 22, 2012)

> In Chris Van Dyke essay on the subject, he states that of…
> 
> “…the roughly 100 illustrations that depict adventurers in the 1st Edition Player Handbook and Dungeon Master’s Guide (both published in 1978), there are NO non-white adventurers. In the over 100 illustrations of adventurer’s in the 2nd Edition Player Handbook and Dungeon Master’s Guide (both published in 1989), there are NO non-white adventurers.”




I always liked to think of "A Paladin in Hell" as a black guy...

As for the rest of it...

RPGs as a form of entertainment share a perception problem with Metal- within the black community, it's often conceived of as something for white guys from the 'burbs/Eurocentric.  Not for us.  Even today, when I go to a Metal show, there are more of us in the security and staff at the event than there are in the audience.

And it's not just the games, it's every aspect of of the Sci-Fi/Fantasy/Horror genre.  We're not just underrepresented in the fiction, we're underrepresented in the consumer market for the stuff.  It's rare for me to run into non-Anglos in those areas of my book stores, comic shops, or movie/memorabilia stores.


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## ExploderWizard (Feb 22, 2012)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> I always liked to think of "A Paladin in Hell" as a black guy...
> 
> As for the rest of it...
> 
> ...




Despite underrepresentation, it was a black guy who showed me the game and taught me how to play.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Feb 22, 2012)

For more than 2 decades, I was the only black guy I knew in gaming.


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## Thunderfoot (Feb 23, 2012)

Wow, Danny, it seems like we've had this discussion somewhere else on these boards.... hhhmmmmmmm

Dude, you can play guitar and D&D with me any day. 
(But I still can't believe they let you be a lawyer in Texas.  )

As for the art, it sort of makes sense.  White guys make white pictures.  It's unintended racism.  When I think about NPCs or read a book without a very specific description, I think white person.  It's not intended, but it's what my mind comes up with.  Unless there is a specific reason otherwise (I played a fighter named Hakim ibn Hassan al Nasir in Al- Qadim, he most definitely wasn't white and I Painted a mini for a black player so I figured his character was too, I had a pre-determined frame of reference.) I default.  It's human nature unfortunately.

By contrast, when Forgotten Realms came along, there was a conscious effort to create an entire world, and diversity was built into the design.  Boom, black guys in gaming art!     And if you think about it, there wasn't a whole lot of other races represented either until OA and UA.  Of course, diversity was already being foisted upon the hobby via EGG's vision of the D&D cartoon.  Let's face it, Diana wasn't Greek.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Feb 23, 2012)

> Dude, you can play guitar and D&D with me any day.




Side note: most of my D&D PCs play an instrument...usually either flute or lute.


> (But I still can't believe they let you be a lawyer in Texas.)



It's either affirmative action or they don't know I'm black.


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## Piratecat (Feb 24, 2012)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> For more than 2 decades, I was the only black guy I knew in gaming.




That's just wrong.

We've got a black player in our group, and I'm plotting to teach my Little Brother (who's from Sierra Leone) how to play. I know maybe another dozen black gamers. Criminally few.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Feb 24, 2012)

It is what it is.  I started gaming in a suburb of Denver, then moved to small-town Kansas.  Then I moved to a suburb of Dallas that was the least integrated in the entire Metroplex- there was a KKK rally on the corner down from my Dad's office the first year we lived there.  I was the first black to graduate from my private HS (and remained the ONLY for a decade). My college had only 20 black freshmen, and only about 40 blacks out of a total (grad & undergrad) enrollment of 4500.  Campus security knew us all on sight.

Simply put, for most of my life, I haven't been around that many blacks who weren't relatives, so that pushes the odds of finding a black gamer WAAAAAY down.


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## Piratecat (Feb 24, 2012)

That's certainly true. I'm wondering how much those odds change in more integrated states. I grew up in Vermont and Connecticut, places that are not exactly cultural melting pots, and the proportion was about the same. 

So here's a question. When you see relatively few black gamers, how much of that do you think is because so many of the classic fantasy stories - LotR, King Arthur, and more books than I can name - are all about white folks?


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## Dannyalcatraz (Feb 24, 2012)

I think that's a significant part of the equation, but not a bar.  When you don't see an echo of yourself in something, it is that much harder to comsider that as a path for yourself.  That is why I think it is important for all the sports color barriers to be broken.  Records aside, one of the most important things tiger Woods ever did was simply play pro golf well as a person of mixed race.  Black participation in golf has _exploded_ since he started winning.

Little black girls played with little blonde barbies before there were little black barbies, after all.  And like the discussion in the other thread hinted, a high percentage of my fantasy art drawings were _and still are_ about white people.

Likewise, my youngest cousin, like me, is nuts about Greek & Norse mythology.  Unlike me, though, he's never expressed an interest in TT gaming- he loves his console games.

So percentages have risen over the years, but we're still "Rare, % in lair 25%".


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## billd91 (Feb 24, 2012)

Thunderfoot said:


> As for the art, it sort of makes sense.  White guys make white pictures.  It's unintended racism.  When I think about NPCs or read a book without a very specific description, I think white person.  It's not intended, but it's what my mind comes up with.




I really wouldn't call that racism. That strikes me as more of a variation on identification in literature. When we read (or in the case of painting, create) we develop a psychological relationship with the character and see ourselves in that character. So I think it's perfectly natural to see characters being similar to ourselves, not just in their behavior or personality qualities, but also physically... barring a specific description that contradicts our mental picture. 
Honestly, I'd say it has more to do with our own narcissism than racism.


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## GSHamster (Feb 24, 2012)

It probably also has a lot to do with how people get into D&D in the first place. You usually get into it from friends and family and those tend to map to racial/ethnic lines.

I'm East Indian, and I see the same issue as I know of no other East Indian tabletop gamers. I think a great part of that is that I did not grow up in the Indian community. Instead, my circle of peers and friends was almost entirely white, and I learned to play D&D with them. But the flip side of that is that I cannot act as a vector into the Indian community, because I'm not really part of it.


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## Umbran (Feb 24, 2012)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> I think that's a significant part of the equation, but not a bar.  When you don't see an echo of yourself in something, it is that much harder to comsider that as a path for yourself.




It's a hard question as to whether the barrier is more about the fiction and presentation, or about socio-economics.  I have no hard data, but my rough understanding is that the traditional home of RPGs is among middle-class suburbanites.  The education, income, and free time and safe place barriers may be taller than the representative art barrier, so to speak.


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## Thunderfoot (Feb 24, 2012)

PC, I would say that the percentage is higher in more integrated states, but only slightly so.

I played with 3 black people at my table of 13.  You figure that into percentages and that's roughly 23%, definitely higher than the national average I'm sure (I think your guess of 25% is really high there Danny).  Taking it away from my table I've known personally 6 other blacks that gamed in the area, 4 from the FLGS - that was in the Baltimore/DC/Annapolis area.  A very high African decent population (both African American and native born immigrants), but even though I knew many I would still venture to guess that the total population in that area that were black and gamers was only about 6% tops.

Most black friends I had thought it was just weird, even more so than my white friends.  I think part of it was a cultural thing, pass-times were a way to get you out of "the hood" and nobody was going to get a Nike endorsement rolling dice and eating pizza.  By contrast those gamers I did run into were all college graduates with stable mid to high level incomes, so the economic thing may have had quite a bit to do with it too.

By contrast, when moving back to Southern Illinois I have run into exactly 1 black gamer (in the whole area), and frankly, he acts whiter than I do, so I'm not sure what that means.

Of course none of this is very scientific and without a national/international census, we are never going to get any real data/facts.  Even poling on ENWorld will only give a representative sample of our membership, assuming they actually answer.  I am sure if this had come up a few years ago I would have used this as a sociology paper and got an even higher grade than my 102%   

(And to think, I hated sociology, although the hot professor tried to give me her phone number after I took the final so we could discuss my final project (over coffee or cocktails?), so maybe it isn't so bad after all.    My wife thought it was funny anyway.)


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## Grumpy RPG Reviews (Feb 25, 2012)

how do you make things better?

Also, on Wednesday this thread becomes about D. Vincent baker's "Apoco World," i.e. the subject of my next review.


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## Piratecat (Feb 25, 2012)

RobertSullivan said:


> how do you make things better?



As the closed threads mention, you make sure you're using blacks in illustrations and examples of play. You find role models who play and you convince them to talk about it. You actively recruit new players of color, then you make sure they can DM better than you can.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Feb 25, 2012)

The biggest thing is, I think, to not assume that anyone who is a minority isn't interested in gaming.  I don't mean at a conscious level, I mean working against the force of our subconscious attitudes.  I have lots of cousins, for instance.  I've only exposed a few of them to gaming at all.  None really picked up the hobby, but 2 enjoyed themselves somewhat.

But be careful of any of us playing Kanye the Giant...next thing you know, your dungeon crawl will be derailed by a quest for hoes and then someone uses the Eye of Odin and _*pop*_


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## Lwaxy (Feb 25, 2012)

Anyone know how the situation in the military is? I learned play from the US forces living off base in our village. 4 Native Americans (dad and his 3 kids), 4-5 whites (me and friend included), 3 African Americans and an Asian woman. 

I never had the impression that any race is underrepresented before the topic came up here, as we don't have so much racial diversity in Germany and I almost always had at least 1 non-white in the group.


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## Thunderfoot (Feb 26, 2012)

Lwaxy said:


> Anyone know how the situation in the military is?  <SNIP>



Depends upon the branches within the services represented.  I was Military Intelligence when I was on Active Duty.  A lot of us MI geeks (low flying MIGs according to the combat arms guys) played RPGs, wargames, etc regardless of our race.  The Artillery guys rarely played RPGs regardless of their race.  And as MI I was multi-service (ie all services trained and served together regardless of where we were stationed) so I can tell you that from what I saw it was the same in the other services too (you've never played until you've had a Marine playing a paladin.)

Without trying to sound elitist, often it was the more cerebral jobs that held the gamers.  Of course this generalization (like all generalizations) isn't an absolute, but it did usually play out that way.  I.e. your intel, tech (repair), commo (communications), med and finance were usually your RPGers, but we had a guy in our group who was clerk.

So the military is skewed (like it is in all demographics.). But if you did a full census you would most likely find that military members are more inclined to play RPGs than the population at large, but the racial split is probably still fairly close.


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## Kaodi (Feb 26, 2012)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Likewise, my youngest cousin, like me, is nuts about Greek & Norse mythology.  Unlike me, though, he's never expressed an interest in TT gaming- he loves his console games.




Sub-Saharan African mythology is probably about as poorly circulated as could possibly be in North America, as far as I can tell. 

I have at least heard something of Abrahamaic, Greek and Roman, Norse, Egyptian, Arabian, Sumerian, Zoroastrian, Hindu, Buddhist, Sikh, Shinto, Celtic, Aztec, Mayan, Native Canadian and Native American, Chinese, Maori, and Voodoo religious and mythological figures. And I suspect this list would be about the same for anyone with similar interests to ours.

The Dahomey, Igbo, and Yoruba pantheons might be suitable for translation into common D&D style... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_deities


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## Dannyalcatraz (Feb 26, 2012)

Thunderfoot said:


> Depends upon the branches within the services represented.  I was Military Intelligence when I was on Active Duty.  A lot of us MI geeks (low flying MIGs according to the combat arms guys) played RPGs, wargames, etc regardless of our race.  The Artillery guys rarely played RPGs regardless of their race.  And as MI I was multi-service (ie all services trained and served together regardless of where we were stationed) so I can tell you that from what I saw it was the same in the other services too (you've never played until you've had a Marine playing a paladin.)
> 
> Without trying to sound elitist, often it was the more cerebral jobs that held the gamers.  Of course this generalization (like all generalizations) isn't an absolute, but it did usually play out that way.  I.e. your intel, tech (repair), commo (communications), med and finance were usually your RPGers, but we had a guy in our group who was clerk.
> 
> So the military is skewed (like it is in all demographics.). But if you did a full census you would most likely find that military members are more inclined to play RPGs than the population at large, but the racial split is probably still fairly close.




Of course, part of this is because of the RPG hobby's roots in war gaming...which the military invented.


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## Lwaxy (Feb 26, 2012)

Kaodi said:


> The Dahomey, Igbo, and Yoruba pantheons might be suitable for translation into common D&D stylehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_deities




Has been done already, at least we have a source book that includes Yoruba and Zulu deities and mythologies. I'd have to search for it though. 

My ex husband was none too thrilled about it, as a Nigerian he looked at it as white companies misusing their legends, and I got a similar sentiment from a Hindu once. Seeing what was done to Buddhist mythology at times, I can somewhat understand that. The way mythology is presented in D&D is distorted enough to plant some wrong ideas about the real thing in people's heads. So I'm not sure if including distorted versions of African mythologies would help that much or rather put people off more.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Feb 26, 2012)

Good point.


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## Kaodi (Feb 26, 2012)

Lwaxy said:


> My ex husband was none too thrilled about it, as a Nigerian he looked at it as white companies misusing their legends, and I got a similar sentiment from a Hindu once. Seeing what was done to Buddhist mythology at times, I can somewhat understand that.




I am sure that Native Canadians might have similar feelings about their legends being used that way, now that you mention it. I think I am less sympathetic to the notion that Hindu mythology would be somehow off limits though than I would be to the various Indigenous cultures. India is a large and relatively powerful region after all, even considering what happened with the Mughals and the British. I mean, if we take that sort of reasoning far enough, then I, for instance, would not be entitled to make use of any mythology beyond the Celtic and Norse (because my clan is descended from Norsemen in part), Abrahamaic (Christian culture) as well as maybe Greek and Roman, because of Rome's imperial history. Egyptian and Arabian, though staples of our cultural awareness, would not be something I would be entitled to use.


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## Lwaxy (Feb 26, 2012)

Yeah I think it comes down to how well a religion/culture is generally known. 


Although I'd prefer it if RPGs would not use names from real world religions at all, just take the general concepts and rename the deities. The books could still explain what source it is all based on. 

If the GMs decide to play in a specific mythology (we played in a Zulu based setting a few years ago) they can still adapt it to the real names.


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## Grumpy RPG Reviews (Feb 26, 2012)

Kaodi said:


> The Dahomey, Igbo, and Yoruba pantheons might be suitable for translation into common D&D style... List of African deities - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




Definitive pantheons are interesting. For one things, they are relatively rare, as much of the worlds in monotheistic or their religion is some form of spiritualism, rather than a specific set of deities.

However, I would not want a pantheon currently seeing active worship to be statted out in any game book, any more than I want someone to stat out Jesus and the Saints. 

Some vague recreation with name changes, sufficient changes to the nature of a deity would be more comfortable. No one would confused Torm, Tyr and Illmater for God the Father, Jesus and the Holy Ghost for example. Such a change in the religion (so it is not a game version of the real thing) should also come with some kind of sidebar explaining what is going on behind the curtain.


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## Lwaxy (Feb 26, 2012)

Exactly. 

Maybe I should take that on as a project. 

BTW a lot of pagan communities, mine included, still refer and revere to the old gods. I have never yet seen any pagan have any issues with a fictional version of whatever god archetype they happen to like.


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## Kaodi (Feb 26, 2012)

RobertSullivan said:


> However, I would not want a pantheon currently seeing active worship to be statted out in any game book, any more than I want someone to stat out Jesus and the Saints.




What do you mean by " statted-out " in this case? Listing their names, portfolios, and domains, or listing their big shiny monster stats?

St. Cuthbert is in fact the name of a real saint, though he does not resemble the historical version much, and St. Nicholas was in fact statted out way back at the first Christmas after the 3e release, I believe. 

But beyond that, how could you set a game during a fictional version of the Crusades without statting things out in the first sense? There was in fact a Crusader Earth/Beyond Jerusalem  setting in the 3e era magazines.



> Giants in the Earth: Strangers in Bethlehem in Dragon #284 (Jun 2001)
> Mysterious Ways in Dungeon #86 (May/Jun 2001)
> Theodora's Ladder in Dragon #308
> Giants in the Earth: Theodora in Dragon #308
> ...




I have that issue of Dungeon. I believe it features an artifact that is a piece of the Cross.


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## Lwaxy (Feb 26, 2012)

Kaodi said:


> But beyond that, how could you set a game during a fictional version of the Crusades without statting things out in the first sense? There was in fact a Crusader Earth/Beyond Jerusalem  setting in the 3e era magazines.




Such specific settings are something else entirely though.


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## Kaodi (Feb 26, 2012)

In any case, a small point on a related but different topic brought up in the summary under the episode we have all been discussing:

I am not convinced that the non-existence of an Africa in fantasy settings is an adequate reason for the term " black " instead of " African " to be desirable. Fantasy settings to not have an Asia or an Orient (in the sense we employ the term) either, nor does the distinction of being " First Nations " , " Native Canadian " , " Inuit " , " Meztiso " , or the like have any meaning there. Yet no one ever refers to fantasy analogs of those people as " yellow " or " red " . And for the love of God, I hope they never do.


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## Lwaxy (Feb 26, 2012)

Kaodi said:


> IYet no one ever refers to fantasy analogs of those people as " yellow " or " red " . And for the love of God, I hope they never do.




Yeah we do. Always did. Why not? Unless the respective cultures have a different skin color, our version of the Mayan/Aztec cultures are actually black. 

Seriously, while the color designations, same as white and black, are kinda not accurate (I consider myself more pink and my ex was definitely brown) I don't get what the problem with it is. It's just a base color designation. It's stuff nobody needs to get stuck up about.


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## Thunderfoot (Feb 27, 2012)

I agree, I have no problem describing myself as white and neither does society at large.  I have never been described as European-American, Slavic-American or anything else when describing my race (except for the official Caucasian.)

With no offense to anyone else, skin color is a great descriptor.  My personal opinion is that the term African-American should be discontinued for American of African decent and only because the Africans I know don't really have a high opinion of blacks from America.  (Their reasons are probably more racists than anything I have ever heard in the States, so I won't go into them here, but they were very....adamant.)

Yellow, red, brown, black, white, pink, green, fuchsia...  frankly, it doesn't matter.  Another thing the Military taught me from my stint in the late 80s early 90s....color blindness.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Feb 27, 2012)

> With no offense to anyone else, skin color is a great descriptor




Yup...and I'm _orange._ 

Actually, this reminds me of my college days.  At one point, my social group included several guys named Brian.*. So there we were, the assembled non-Brians, trying to talk about one of the Brians...trying to figure out which would be best to ask about doing some task.

So the conversation went around in circles:

"Why not Brian _______?"

"Which one is he?"

"You know, the one who _______ all the time?"

"I don't know him!"

"Yeah ya do..."

And getting nowhere...until the last one:

Why not Brian _______?"

"Which one is he?"

"You know" _*whispering*_ "*black* Brian!"

All: "Oooooohhh, BLACK Brian!"

Yes, that stuck as his new nickname.  (Years before Black Debbie/White Debbie on Sealab 2021.)








* which reminds me of HS, since my graduating class of 27 included 4 Davids, 4 Jon/Johns/Jonathans and a John-David.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Feb 27, 2012)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Yes, that stuck as his new nickname.  (Years before Black Debbie/White Debbie on Sealab 2021.)




Which went like this: 


> Marco: Well, Debbie thinks this is all about her biological clock.
> Stormy: She stopped screaming enough to tell you that?
> Marco: No no no no, the other Debbie. Debbie the teacher.
> Stormy: Oh, you mean... black Debbie.
> ...


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## Lwaxy (Feb 27, 2012)

Great, I didn't know that one. 

Reminds me of a story my ex told of oil representatives in the Nigerian company of his dad. There were 3 white guys, and they were called white X, white Y, white z all the time until they got a 4th guy with the same name as X. 

The actually gifted him a yellow cap to wear when he came around as they found no other distinction they could easily use 

Oh and the term "Caucasian" really annoys me. I'm not from the Caucasus area, I'm German, for the sake of all pantheons  Doesn't really matter in the big scheme of things of course.


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## Grumpy RPG Reviews (Feb 27, 2012)

Kaodi said:


> I am not convinced that the non-existence of an Africa in fantasy settings is an adequate reason for the term " black " instead of " African " to be desirable.




What term should be used?


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## Piratecat (Feb 27, 2012)

Gently steering us back to the topic: blacks in gaming. Steer. Steer.


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## Kaodi (Feb 27, 2012)

Piratecat said:


> Gently steering us back to the topic: blacks in gaming. Steer. Steer.




I do not know if it was your intention, but I am getting distinct impressions of Elan using his bardic music. If only we had a musical note smiley... 

Hopefully this is what you meant by getting back on topic:

Robert mentions in his video (which took me forever to load once I finally started to watch it) depictions of African-influenced characters as 10% of the human characters. But my question is: are there not other races (or species, if you must) that could appropriately be depicted with dark skin? Any race that traditionally lives above ground I would think would be eligible at the very least (though since it is fantasy there is not really any reason dwarves and gnomes could not be either). At the very least, I think we should not be aiming for 10% of humans, but rather 10% of all humans, half-elves, elves, and halflings, and whatever other race with human skintones that lives in warm terrain.


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## Umbran (Feb 27, 2012)

Kaodi said:


> But my question is: are there not other races (or species, if you must) that could appropriately be depicted with dark skin?




I think you could do that, but might be missing the point just a tad.

From discussions I've had on the matter, I've come to understand that the tonal quality of the skin isn't the only issue, and maybe not even the central one.  The skin color, to us, still implies a great deal about cultural background, and that is also important.  Especially in a game where we usually idealize race to be equivalent to culture.

So, a dark-skinned dwarf is still a dwarf.  He's not of the fantasy world's psuedo-African culture, and so will not quite fulfill the desired need - a desire to see the entire background, not just the skin color, given treatment and respect.


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## Lwaxy (Feb 27, 2012)

That would mean if either we get more black characters representing any culture or any color of skin representing African culture more people of African descent would feel represented.


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## Thunderfoot (Feb 27, 2012)

Lwaxy said:


> <SNIP>
> Oh and the term "Caucasian" really annoys me. I'm not from the Caucasus area, I'm German, for the sake of all pantheons  <SNIP>



Lolz - I needed that, thanks.
My family isn't either, but since the "first" white body was found in that region the scientists named it as such - and you how scientists are with their naming conventions (no offense Umbran.  )  I'm sure Asians (especially the Chinese) don't like the term "Mongoloid" either.


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## Thunderfoot (Feb 27, 2012)

Lwaxy said:


> That would mean if either we get more black characters representing any culture or any color of skin representing African culture more people of African descent would feel represented.



Probably, maybe, no???
I try not to second guess anyone's reaction when it comes to culture, religion or politics, usually I'm wrong.
I would say, it's all fantasy and therefore it doesn't matter, but as soon as I do, there would be a knock on the door and the PC police would be dragging me away for re-education.  And if I said, yes that's the answer, more often than not, I would get a radical (culture/religion/political) member telling me I'm missing the point.

I try to stay away from real world actualities in my games and use variants thereof.  For instance I used the old Soviet Union as a template for one my nations in game and then made them religious radicals.  Yeah, no direct parallel there.  Or the Middle-eastern inspired lizardman tribe, the Germanic monkey folk that spoke Scandinavian, the barbaric elvish nomads with a definitive Chinese culture.  Nothing sacred and nothing specific, I'll trash any accepted social/economic/religious/cultural conventions and so far, because it is so far removed from reality, I haven't ever had a problem with it.   Here's hoping it stays that way.


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## Thunderfoot (Feb 27, 2012)

Blacks in Gaming - I'm for it! 
And speaking of which Danny, are you coming to GenCon this year?  You have to take a vacation sometime dude.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Feb 27, 2012)

> From discussions I've had on the matter, I've come to understand that the tonal quality of the skin isn't the only issue, and maybe not even the central one. The skin color, to us, still implies a great deal about cultural background, and that is also important. Especially in a game where we usually idealize race to be equivalent to culture.




Yep...and as long as setting designers stick to a quasi-European paradigm as their starting point, it's going to be a problem.

And the thing is, I think this is going to be the default for most commercial settings, simply because most people work from their own experiences & preconceptions.

Now, _homebrews _are another matter entirely.  I'm routinely involved with people on these boards trying stuff based on non-European cultures.  Like in this thread: http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/256063-what-would-society-look-like.html

Or they try to add some non-standard elements to make fantasy cultures more...fantastic.  http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/306105-what-animals-do-they-keep.html


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## jonesy (Feb 27, 2012)

Thunderfoot said:


> ...but since the "first" white body was found in that region the scientists named it as such..



Caucasian as used to refer to 'white people' is a U.S. only thing. Elsewhere it doesn't have much anything to do with skin tone.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Feb 27, 2012)

Thunderfoot said:


> Blacks in Gaming - I'm for it!
> And speaking of which Danny, are you coming to GenCon this year?  You have to take a vacation sometime dude.




Alas, I'm in training for the next couple of months with an eye towards becoming a professional mediator- being an attorney SUXXXX!


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## Umbran (Feb 27, 2012)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Yep...and as long as setting designers stick to a quasi-European paradigm as their starting point, it's going to be a problem.
> 
> And the thing is, I think this is going to be the default for most commercial settings, simply because most people work from their own experiences & preconceptions.




You make it sound like a casual disregard on the part of the writer.  I think it is a bit more than that.

Doing a good and proper treatment of a culture for the game requires significant knowledge of the culture, including a lot of real-world history, and understanding of that culture's mythic structures and magical traditions, right?  

That's not information that your typical writer comes upon casually.  It requires a whole lot of research and education of the writer.  And it isn't like game writing carries a major paycheck that allows the writer to spend months off in the library and taking college courses to bring himself or herself up to speed.

There's a sort of market chicken and egg problem.  Cultures that are minorities in the US are under-represented in RPG gaming at least in part because their cultures are under represented in the games.  But, since the players aren't there right now, a publisher has little guarantee that taking the extra effort will pay off.  

So, you either need a game company that's rich enough to take some risks, or wait until you just happen to get a good game writer who is also a hobbyist on some other culture, before you'll see a compelling treatment.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Feb 27, 2012)

> You make it sound like a casual disregard on the part of the writer. I think it is a bit more than that.




Not my intent.

More like all creative types start with what they know best as a starting point, then go from there.

Add to that the economics of aiming for the biggest target...


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## Thunderfoot (Feb 27, 2012)

jonesy said:


> Caucasian as used to refer to 'white people' is a U.S. only thing. Elsewhere it doesn't have much anything to do with skin tone.



Not true actually - While the term classifies as white person for most official documents in the US. (though in Federal documents it is slowly changing to a choice of White Hispanic or White non-Hispanic.)

The term actually comes from the Scientific term for the first white man using the scientific classification of hominids.

Caucasoid - A descendant of the first white hominid - Caucus man
Negroid - A descendant of the first black hominid - Literally Black man
Mongoloid - A descendant of the first yellow hominid - Mongol man
Aboriginal - A descendant of the Aboriginal tribes of Australia - a recent addition to classification as they have common strands with the other three types but are an apparently unique species of hominid.  Though dating cannot confirm quite possibly the first hominid race.


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## Thunderfoot (Feb 27, 2012)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Alas, I'm in training for the next couple of months with an eye towards becoming a professional mediator- being an attorney SUXXXX!



Yeah, just keep telling yourself that we you get your paycheck. 
We entertainment types will console you on our way to the soup kitchen.  

Of course being out of work and poor does leave a lot of time to volunteer for True Dungeon which gets me to GenCon every year for free.


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## jonesy (Feb 27, 2012)

Thunderfoot said:


> Not true actually - While the term classifies as white person for most official documents in the US. (though in Federal documents it is slowly changing to a choice of White Hispanic or White non-Hispanic.)



Huh? I'm not understanding any part of that answer. Which part are you talking about? It's not true, but it's official? What do Hispanics have to do with it?


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## Thunderfoot (Feb 27, 2012)

jonesy said:


> Huh? I'm not understanding any part of that answer. Which part are you talking about? It's not true, but it's official? What do Hispanics have to do with it?




What I meant was - the term Caucasian to refer to a white person is not exclusively used by the US because it is a scientific term (sort of).  However the US used it an an "official" descriptor of white people (on applications, records, etc.) but is currently phasing it out in favor of White Hispanic or White non-Hispanic.  Though many US businesses and States still use the Caucasian term for all white people for documentation.

Sorry about the confusion


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## jonesy (Feb 27, 2012)

Thunderfoot said:


> What I meant was - the term Caucasian to refer to a white person is not exclusively used by the US because it is a scientific term (sort of).



That can't be accurate. Caucasian skin tones vary all the way to dark even in the original definitions which were talking of people all the way to Africa and India. That was 19th century science. And this is what the Oxford Dictionary says now:
"..the classification is outdated and the categories are now not generally accepted as scientific.."



> However the US used it an an "official" descriptor of white people (on applications, records, etc.) but is currently phasing it out in favor of White Hispanic or White non-Hispanic.



Yeah, but, Hispanic? What are they classifying as White Hispanic? What if a Brazilian or a Portuguese immigrant comes there?


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## jonesy (Feb 28, 2012)

Umbran said:


> The skin color, to us, still implies a great deal about cultural background, and that is also important.



After the direction this thread has taken, I'd say it's really not. Skin colour should be removed from the cultures and races and placed alone by itself in a tangent with attributes like hair style and clothing, since in this world that we live in one can have any skin colour and still belong to almost any culture.

The imagery in the games should reflect this variety. Especially when we are talking about made up worlds that have no need to hold the real world as a crutch.

We already have a hundred settings based on cliches from our past, and mostly from Europe.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Feb 28, 2012)

> After the direction this thread has taken, I'd say it's really not. Skin colour should be removed from the cultures and races and placed alone by itself in a tangent with attributes like hair style and clothing, since in this world that we live in one can have any skin colour and still belong to almost any culture.




Well, that's a nice thought, but let's be honest- a setting based on the customs and traditions of medieval Europe (fantasy trope #1) but populated by 99% blacks and Asians would be a hard sell.


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## Thunderfoot (Feb 28, 2012)

jonesy said:


> That can't be accurate. Caucasian skin tones vary all the way to dark even in the original definitions which were talking of people all the way to Africa and India. That was 19th century science. And this is what the Oxford Dictionary says now:
> "..the classification is outdated and the categories are now not generally accepted as scientific.."
> 
> 
> Yeah, but, Hispanic? What are they classifying as White Hispanic? What if a Brazilian or a Portuguese immigrant comes there?



Yeah, I believe it when the anthropologists stop using it.  

The classifications are as follows:
White - Hispanic
White - non-Hispanic
Black - African decent
Black - Hispanic decent
Oriental
Indian
Native American
Polynesian
Aboriginal
Other (please specify)

I had a friend from Egypt who was a Sgt in the US Army.  He got upset because he said they need a White - African, because Egyptians are not black. (his words).    Frankly, I think it's all pretty ate-up.


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## Thunderfoot (Feb 28, 2012)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Well, that's a nice thought, but let's be honest- a setting based on the customs and traditions of medieval Europe (fantasy trope #1) but populated by 99% blacks and Asians would be a hard sell.



I prefer a Russian setting using Native Americans and Polynesians.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Feb 28, 2012)

Siberian Luaus would be a bitch...


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## Lwaxy (Feb 28, 2012)

Thunderfoot said:


> White - Hispanic
> White - non-Hispanic




And that leaves out whites of Arabic descend. 

Not that much better. 

I do agree that a medieval settings with mostly blacks would probably not sell. But a mixed setting likely would. No one has ever had any issues with me putting people of different skin tones in my medieval settings st least.


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## Lwaxy (Feb 28, 2012)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Siberian Luaus would be a bitch...







Thanks for that image


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## jonesy (Feb 28, 2012)

Make them dwarves. Siberian polynesian dwarves. There's an image for you.


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## Grumpy RPG Reviews (Feb 28, 2012)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> ...being an attorney SUXXXX!




 But David E. Kelley makes it seem like so much fun.



Dannyalcatraz said:


> Siberian Luaus would be a bitch...




More like limited in the time frame they could comfortably be performed. 



Dannyalcatraz said:


> ...a setting based on the customs and traditions of medieval Europe (fantasy trope #1) but populated by 99% blacks and Asians would be a hard sell.




A Forgotten Realms game I was in ages ago had the Rashemi (psuedo-Russians) as black, in a home brew variation on a theme.


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## jonesy (Feb 28, 2012)

Related to the subject at hand:

In A Song of Ice and Fire the Qartheen are described as having milky white skin. Take a look at the actor chosen to play Xaro Xhoan Daxos:

IMDb - Nonso Anozie


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## Umbran (Feb 28, 2012)

jonesy said:


> ... since in this world that we live in one can have any skin colour and still belong to almost any culture.




In theory, on can have any skin color, and belong to almost any culture.

But theory isn't a place most of us live, and we are, at least nominally, still discussing RPG products.  Ultimately, your product has to be made for your customers.  If your customers have associations between skin tone and culture, and you ignore that in your product, you are apt to confuse some of your customers, and anger others.



Lwaxy said:


> And that leaves out whites of Arabic descend.




No, it doesn't leave them out.  It just doesn't give them a separate category all their own.  They are "White - non-Hispanic", just like I am.  But then, Brazilians get lumped into "White-Hispanic", when they often don't wish to be.

The reasons why some groups get separate categories, and others don't, is based in current socio-economics and politics that are not suitable for discussion on EN World, I'm sorry to say.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Feb 28, 2012)

jonesy said:


> Make them dwarves. Siberian polynesian dwarves. There's an image for you.




Somewhat ahead of you:




Dannyalcatraz said:


> PPs do add some seasoning, to be sure, but I really think most will come from the RP side...not that that is any different from any other RPG.
> 
> For instance, let me tell you about my Dwarven Starlock whose clan is into astronomy, fighting aberrations, capoira, steel drums & ragga jungle.
> 
> On second thought, I've told you enough...


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## Thunderfoot (Feb 29, 2012)

jonesy said:


> Make them dwarves. Siberian polynesian dwarves. There's an image for you.




Komrad, have Lei!  Is made of coal, diamond dust and iron, very practical.


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## Piratecat (Mar 1, 2012)

I've stripped out the "Blacks in Gaming" discussion into this, its own thread.


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## Grumpy RPG Reviews (Mar 3, 2012)

Ba-bump-bumpty-bumpty-bump.


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## Kaodi (Mar 3, 2012)

Speaking of associations between skin tone and culture, it recently dawned on me that Golarion _roughly_ maps onto Earth.

Avistan is Europe, Garund is Africa. East of there, Casmaron is Central Asia, Tian Xia is the Far East, and Sarusan is Australia. West of Avistan and Garund is Atlantis, and West of there (East of Tian Xia and Sarusan) is Arcadia, which is the Americas.

Was it a good idea to organize the world in this way, such that Golarion's cultures (and often skin tones) basically occur in the same spot as do the Earth cultures and skin tones they are based on?


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## Grumpy RPG Reviews (Mar 3, 2012)

I am not fami8lair with the setting, but I doubt the arrangement is an accident. If Piazo can make it work,more power to them. 

What is the race of people from Atlantis?


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## Dannyalcatraz (Mar 3, 2012)

I hear they prefer triathlons.


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## Kaodi (Mar 3, 2012)

Could not really say with the Azlanti. They might be one that is not based on anything, as they correspond to one of our most famous and enduring myths. But here is their description. They might be related to Elizabeth Taylor, hehehe...



> The ancient Azlanti were, according to contemporary accounts, a regal and aloof people with noble features and haughty attitudes. They had dark hair, ranging in color from dark red to brown and black, and their skin tones ranged from olive to pale white. They were also known for having prominent brows and high hairlines; this was especially true for the men, whose hair would often recede into a widow's peak. One of the most well-known Azlanti physical attributes were their purple-colored eyes, a trait which still crops up in other peoples from time to time, and which is always a sign of Azlanti heritage.




Correlations are not exact, intra-continent. Varisians, for instance, are an amalgamation of Roma and Irish Traveller. The Shoanti, their cousins, are pretty clearly Celts if you ask me. In other threads I have seen people have weird ideas about them though. These two groups live in the Northwest, along with some Chelaxians, which I will get to. In the North of the continent are the Ulfen, with are Scandinavians, and north of them are the Varki, basically Sami. North of the Varki, crossing the Crown of the World (the North Pole) are the Erutaki, I believe, which are basically Inuit. In Golarion the Varki are a mix of Ulfen and Erutaki. 

It is really windy here, and my internet is acting like crap, so I will leave it there for now in the hopes this actually gets posted when I submit.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Mar 4, 2012)

> Clifton1234
> has no status.
> 
> Registered User
> ...




Reported


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## Grumpy RPG Reviews (Mar 4, 2012)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> I hear they prefer triathlons.




Ba-duhm-bum-ching! (Drum set rim shot!)

I keep hoping for purple people, to justify a purple people eater.

Anyway, I am still pitching "10% of the humans depicted in 5E core books should be black."

As an aside, how does the psuedo-African setting in Pathfinder shape up?


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## Kaodi (Mar 4, 2012)

Hard to say. The Mwangi Expanse, the interior region of Garund which conforms to Sub-Saharan Africa, is not very well detailed (in keeping with how most of Africa was a mysterious continent). Only about a third of Garund has actually been covered too. One of the countries, Sargava, is kind of like South Africa (colonized by Chelaxians; Chelaxians are kind of a combination of English/Romans, while their politics and territory are kind of a combination of European fascists (Germany/Italy/Spain) with European imperialists (Rome/Britain/Netherlands; their fascism comes from Asmodeus being the patron deity of the empire, though that only became the case in a succession war about 100 years ago; Sargava broke away from Cheliax during this war, so they are not big on Asmodeus).

The predecessors of the Mwangi people, much like everyone else, had their share of legendary figures and cities (both good and bad). Religion is mostly shamanism, ancestor worship, and of the primary nature god, Gozreh, but there is a lot of demon worship and a few nastier deities as well (like Kitumu the Firefly Goddess and Walkena, a mummified child-god). 

What might be a major strike against it though is that one of the major villains in Mwangi is a city of intelligent apes, ape-like creatures, and ape-men called Usaro, which worships an ape demon (Angazhan). What makes it kind of sketchy though is that the ruler, the Gorilla King, is always an intelligent gorilla that was reincarneted from being a human (almost invariably from the demon-worshipping Bekyar tribes).


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## Alan Shutko (Mar 4, 2012)

Sounds like the Azlanti were of pure Alphatian descent.


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## Grumpy RPG Reviews (Mar 7, 2012)

To refocus...

There should be more diversity in the art depicting humans in fantasy RPG.

A step in this direction is making 10% of the humans depicted in the art of the next D&D books black.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Mar 7, 2012)

I'd rephrase that to say that it's probably an improvement if FRPG art reflected the ethnicity of the cultures represented in the setting...and that the settings themselves should be a bit more culturally diverse.

Eurocentric* FRPGs really don't need some kind of art quota based on modern demographics.  While Asian, Arabic and Africans may have traveled through or even settled in Europe in the 1400s on, _together_ they wouldn't amount to 10% of the populace.  (Most of them would be nobles, holy men, merchants & mercenaries, I'd guess.)

OTOH, a FRPG with more prevalent non-European designs might need more emphasis on other races in the art.  (Honestly, the only time I got miffed by D&D art were the Caucasian-looking Egyptian gods in some 2Ed product.)









* understand that European-  along with Asian, African and Arabic- regarding FRPGs is just shorthand for the various races and culture _types_ that may appear.


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## Grumpy RPG Reviews (Mar 8, 2012)

FR... that refers to Forgotten Realms, right? That is just one campaign setting. The core books have a wider audience.


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## jonesy (Mar 8, 2012)

What does FRPG stand for? Forgotten Realms Players Guide?


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## Dannyalcatraz (Mar 8, 2012)

*F*antasy *R*ole *P*laying *G*ame.


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## Grumpy RPG Reviews (Mar 9, 2012)

Right. Should have been able to figure that out. 

I am using a 10% mark as an objective standard, something measurably reachable rather than something as vague as "just doing better."


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## jonesy (Mar 9, 2012)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> *F*antasy *R*ole *P*laying *G*ame.


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