# I m a girl get over it



## Sarajaine"The Solar" (Apr 14, 2005)

I am a girl who looks as tho she would'nt know the first thing about gaming let alone the intricacies of playing the DnD and the world that goes along with it.
For a long time my boyfriend , who is a avid gamer and his mates had me labeled as a girl who should be seen and not heard on this subject and that I would be oblivious to the details and probably not the type to play or have as much enthusiasm as they clearly do.

I don't get this assumption at all:\ I think most guys feel that the nearest women get to being involved in a game is when we totter round wearing our aprons handing out mid encounter nibbles before disappearing into the background.

Is it just that we are the of the opposite sex or that you are afraid to let us into your world for fear we will see you at your most vulnerable and the concept of seeing you getting excited or even moved at slaying a dragon may make you lose any sexual credibility and make you less of a man.

There are some women and I am most certainly one of them who think that guys who are geeks are extremely hot! 
Plus I feel that gaming is like any other hobby be it tennis or basketball. In fact I feel that it stimulates the mind and is a very healthy past time. I would much rather my man conjure spells and be doing something constructive and fun than a belching,scratching yob leering at a football game. 
The point I am making is that I know from first hand experience with my boyfriend that gamers love what they do with a passion so why are you ashamed of it?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I got sidetracked for a second there 
My original reason for writing this drivel was that girls seemed to get a severe mocking when it comes to having an interest in Dnd.
I sit in my front room nearly every other day reading Ben's MM and pretty much every piece of literature he has on the subject. We have been together for a while now so it is not some failed attempt to impress him it is genuinely because I fine the whole subject fascinating. 
I listen to him talk for hours on the phone about encounters he has had and his party members feats and I listen in awe.
What bugs me is why whenever girls talk about DnD or claim they know someting related to it we get laughed at!
Its like a no go area and having testosterone is your members only card.
My boyfriend recently posted a thread about gaming and girlfriends and my interest in it and someone wisely suggested that he should let me play at one of his games and get me actively participating. 
As sweet (and naive) as this comment was, I would'nt dream of playing with a group of his friends as I would surely get laughed at, patronisingly patted on my head and may even get called "rookie" or asked to get make the drinks.

I bet there are so many girls on this earth who really want to play the game and be taken seriously. I bet there are girls on this site who probably know more about gaming than some men.
I admit that my appearance may be my down fall as I look like I would be more in tuned to the topic of cheerleading than talk of expeditions in Faerun.

There are not many girls I now who would want to pretend to be sun elfs and slay frost giants on a monday night but I am one of them ......so there


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## Pramas (Apr 14, 2005)

Our hobby is for everyone. If some guys can't get over women loving RPGs, that's their problem, not yours.


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## Wystan (Apr 14, 2005)

Sarajaine"The Solar" said:
			
		

> I sit in my front room nearly every other day reading Ben's MM and pretty much every piece of literature he has on the subject. ...
> I listen to him talk for hours on the phone about encounters he has had and his party members feats and I listen in awe.




I do not believe you are who you say you are. He plainly stated that he and his girlfriend live together.
You plainly state that you talk to him on the phone.

These are contradictory statements. 

If you are going to impersonate a mans girlfriend at least keep your facts straight.


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## MoonZar (Apr 14, 2005)

Hello Sarajaine,

I don't know what is the big deal about girl playing DnD.

For years, I had at least 2 womans in my DnD group and we don't see any problem. They bring something different at the table and this good for all of us.

btw, i'm sure that plenty of guys around, will be glad to open their arms to you in their DnD group.


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## Henry (Apr 14, 2005)

First of all, Sarahjaine, welcome to ENWorld!

Secondly, I can sympathize with your position. A lot of male gamers are not comfortable around female gamers, and that's their hangup to deal with. One thing about ENWorld you'll find is that there are LOTS of lady gamers here, young and mature, tall and small, etc. In fact, there are two other sites founded due to friendships made at ENWorld, and run or co-run by women gamers - Randomling's House, and Nothingland.

Also, what part of the world are you from? A lot of forum members here have in-person get togethers from time to time, and you may find you are closer to a more tolerant cadre of gamers than you think!

I hope you can enjoy the gamer conversation here, and if you need anything ask one of the Mods, and we'll all be glad to help if we can.


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## RangerWickett (Apr 14, 2005)

Well, hi!  Welcome to the boards.  It's kinda odd to start off with a rant, but I can understand the sentiment.  Gamers are as diverse personality-wise as any other group of people, so it looks like you just unfortunately happen to know some gamers who don't respect women.

I know a large group of gamers - maybe 25 or 30 total who I hang out with semi-regularly.  In my own games there are two women, and throughout the rest of the group there are four more.  Three of the women are dating other gamers, and interestingly, among the men, only one guy has a significant other who is not a gamer.

I hope you'll feel welcome here.  Make sure to put extra line spacings between your paragraphs from now on; makes them easier to read.


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## Belen (Apr 14, 2005)

Sounds like he hangs out with a bunch of jerks.  On my first date with the lady who would become my wife (who happens to be quite attractive), I told her about gaming.  She had been brought up to believe that D&D was evil, but also enjoyed Star Trek, loved the hobbit and the lord of the rings, and played PC games.

Not only did I explain the game with her, but I immediately invited her to sit in on a session and after she showed interest, I encouraged her to play.  I always wanted to find a lady who I could include in that part of my life.

Now, she is a GM.

My recommendation to you:  Find a group and play if his friends are such immature jerks that women are not cool in their game.  I can guarantee you that a lot of groups would be VERY appreciative of another female gamer in the group.

If you were close to us, then we'd invite you to play!

Also, couples gaming can be a ton of fun if you find another couple who games.


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## MonsterMash (Apr 14, 2005)

Hello,

I think that it varies from group to group how male gamers react to women playing. In both groups I game with there is one female (1 in 5 in one, 1 in 7 in the other) and they are treated the same as any other player, both by the DM and the other players. Depending on the age of the group you are talking about it may just be an issue of them needing to get a bit more mature and used to interacting with women (both in the gaming environment and RL), providing of course this thread is not just a troll.

MM


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## skinnydwarf (Apr 14, 2005)

Sarajaine"The Solar" said:
			
		

> <SNIP>
> My original reason for writing this drivel was that girls seemed to get a severe mocking when it comes to having an interest in Dnd.
> I sit in my front room nearly every other day reading Ben's MM and pretty much every piece of literature he has on the subject. We have been together for a while now so it is not some failed attempt to impress him it is genuinely because I fine the whole subject fascinating.
> I listen to him talk for hours on the phone about encounters he has had and his party members feats and I listen in awe.
> ...




I've only known a few female roleplayers, but except for a couple people who were just jerks to begin with, no male gamers I know treated them the way you describe here.  Are you *sure* your boyfriends friends will treat you that way?  I mean, have you tried to play and they've acted that way?  If they did, it is certainly pretty rude and you or your boyfriend might want to just talk to them about it.  If you don't want to to that, and you are really interested in playing, you might consider finding a different group where you and your boyfriend can play.  He should be up for it.  I know if *my* girlfriend were interested in gaming, I'd move heaven and earth to make sure it was a good experience for her.  Someday I'll convert her... someday.

If I'm completely off the mark here, my apoligies, it is hard to tell exactly what happened based on your post.  Or I might just be too tired to understand.


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## Flyspeck23 (Apr 14, 2005)

Sarajaine"The Solar" said:
			
		

> The point I am making is that I know from first hand experience with my boyfriend that gamers love what they do with a passion so why are you ashamed of it?



My gaming group consists of 50% male / 50% female gamers, not counting the GM (me). My girlfriend is a roleplayer too.
Even if that wouldn't be the case, I'd never ever be ashamed of it. There's no point in denying the facts.




			
				Sarajaine"The Solar" said:
			
		

> What bugs me is why whenever girls talk about DnD or claim they know someting related to it we get laughed at!
> Its like a no go area and having testosterone is your members only card.



I know of one such RPG group, and I'd never play with those people.
My girlfriend has played in such a group too (that was before we met, and I don't know any people of that group personally). Because of what she's told me about her experiences, I've got to agree with you:



> My boyfriend recently posted a thread about gaming and girlfriends and my interest in it and someone wisely suggested that he should let me play at one of his games and get me actively participating.
> As sweet (and naive) as this comment was, I would'nt dream of playing with a group of his friends as I would surely get laughed at, patronisingly patted on my head and may even get called "rookie" or asked to get make the drinks.



Indeed, be careful. While the group doesn't have to be like that, it might be. Maybe you could attend one of their sessions, not as a player but as a visitor at first? If they're acting nice, think about joining - if not, don't.


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## fusangite (Apr 14, 2005)

All women who have joined gaming groups in which I have been a member have been treated in one of two ways: (a) indistinguishably from the guys or (b) with a kind of sick cloying deference. I have never witnessed or heard of through any real-world acquaintance of the kind of experience you are describing. I would like, therefore, to suggest that the individuals with whom you are interacting are highly exceptional in the gaming world. I've seen guys refuse to take on a female player because the particular gaming group has a "guys' night" kind of feel to it but these are never the bona fide geeks to whom you unfortunately seem to find yourself attracted.

My advice: you and your boyfriend can/should find any other group of male gamers and they will act differently.


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## Henry (Apr 14, 2005)

Wystan said:
			
		

> I do not believe you are who you say you are. He plainly stated that he and his girlfriend live together.
> You plainly state that you talk to him on the phone.
> 
> These are contradictory statements.
> ...




Um, Wystan, I live with my wife, and talk to her on the phone all the time.  Plus, there was a 9-month gap in Scratch_back's narrrative, between him telling all, and them moving in. Let's not jump to judgements unless someone gives reason to.


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## Ravellion (Apr 14, 2005)

Sure, gaming is not gender exclusive. However, I do have a game that is "just the guys". This has been pretty much stated up front - it is our poker night, if you like, and we like it that way - the goal of the game is making the room stink like bloke and drink lots of Grolsch.

Perhaps that is their reason for being apprehensive - they may not have stated it as clearly as we did, but the game may have developed to be that way. A bit immature that they say things like "you wouldn't understand" though.

Rav


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## Wraith Form (Apr 14, 2005)

Sarajaine"The Solar" said:
			
		

> There are some women and I am most certainly one of them who think that guys who are geeks are extremely hot!



Did you hear that?  

That was the sound of me falling in love.....


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## fusangite (Apr 14, 2005)

Sarajaine"The Solar" said:
			
		

> The point I am making is that I know from first hand experience with my boyfriend that gamers love what they do with a passion so why are you ashamed of it?



Because D&D is a game that most people start as adolescents and grow out of. Like most games, it is therefore viewed as an adolescent passtime and involvement in RPGs is viewed as a sign of immaturity. Immaturity is a turnoff for most potential girlfriends, employers and colleagues and therefore activities that correlate to immaturity are concealed from these people.


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## DungeonmasterCal (Apr 14, 2005)

Easy, easy! Whoooaaa!    I don't currently have any female gamers in my group, but it's not because they're not welcome.  Over the years there have been many women in the groups I've DM'd, and they have all been great players and contributors.  My wife, though she no longer plays (that old group broke up and the players moved away), was just about the best roleplayer I've ever seen.  I wish there were more women players in the area where I live.


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## diaglo (Apr 14, 2005)

welcome aboard.


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## Scratched_back (Apr 14, 2005)

Wystan said:
			
		

> I do not believe you are who you say you are. He plainly stated that he and his girlfriend live together.
> You plainly state that you talk to him on the phone.
> 
> These are contradictory statements.
> ...




Err... she is my girlfriend mate. I think you mis-read, not a problem though!

She does indeed listen to me talk for hours on the phone about gaming - to other people! I call the other guys in the group a lot mid-week to discuss tactics etc, at which point she can hear everything I say.


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## der_kluge (Apr 14, 2005)

I think I express the same opinion as others - find a new group.

I've pretty much always had at least one girl in every game I've ever been regularly involved with. I've never found their presence to be an issue in any of them.


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## ForceUser (Apr 14, 2005)

Wystan said:
			
		

> I do not believe you are who you say you are. He plainly stated that he and his girlfriend live together.
> You plainly state that you talk to him on the phone.
> 
> These are contradictory statements.
> ...



...he's talking on the phone to his friends, while she sits nearby and listens. Don't be a jerk.

Welcome to ENWorld Sarajaine. Ignore the trolls.


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## Desdichado (Apr 14, 2005)

Same here.  I've played plenty with gals in the group, and it's never even been something that we thought more than twice about.  Heck, we had a group for a while there that was four guys _and all four of their wives_.  Sadly, that group has disintegrated to three folks, but we recruited another three newcomers (without their wives) and carried on.


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## Henry (Apr 14, 2005)

I will say this much - if your current group's dynamic doesn't allow it, there's no reason to force it - though one never knows until it's given a test run; and if it turns out that they do have a problem, there are groups out there that SHE might want to join in. as I noted in the other post. My wife for instance enjoys plenty of other activities that I don't; she's not a gamer, and doesn't game with me, but she hangs out with friends, goes shopping, etc. and we have three social circles - hers, mine, and the part where they overlap (such as her sister and sister's fiancé, who are gamers.)


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## Rel (Apr 14, 2005)

What's a prettly little thing like you doing with a great big chip on her shoulder like that?

(Ok, I'm kidding, calm down. )

Seriously though, I can appreciate your rant but it isn't doing you much good here.  By and large the folks here at ENWorld are as accepting and nice a bunch of people you will find on the internet.  I can already tell you that the predominant opinions in this thread will be that we enjoy gaming with female gamers and are very accepting and encouraging of their participation in the hobby.

Opinions like those expressed by your boyfriend's group are very rare around here.  So I hope you enjoy your stay.


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## Goblyns Hoard (Apr 14, 2005)

I've gamed with girls and girlfriends for years... introduced some to gaming, met others through it, and have been pleasantly surprised when one nervously brought up the subject (thinking that I wasn't a gamer and would think she was the geek.... hmmm that was nice)

My experience of female gamers - highly varied.  Some were clearly "trying out the boyfriend's hobby", others long term addicts.  I've never played in a game run by a woman (though I know of women that have run games... just not when I was around   

Most groups I've played with have been dominated by men in numbers, and often also in style of play.  This is not universal but can be a problem.  And generally (WARNING- GROSS GENERALISATION ABOUT MY EXPERIENCE) I've found that non-gamer women consider the idea of gaming worse than non-gaming men - i.e. they take the piss more and consider it childish where non-gaming guys tend to just think "meh... geek stuff" and leave it at that.  Which means that getting together a group of girls to game with while probably a good thing for you to do would probably be difficult.

My suggestions -
1) Talk to your bloke, get him to play a one-on-one with you so you get into the real details of gaming.  Use that to get a few of the details down then insist on joining.  Ask him not to tell the others that you've had the 'coaching' sessions.  I'm not suggesting you don't know about the system but there's a difference between knowing the theory and putting it into play, and until you've actually played a couple of games it's likely that you'll get a 'how do I do that again' moment.  It's not that it's a problem - just that the first time you game with all his mates you want everything to go as smooth as possible and a few live sessions will iron out any kinks and make you look less of 'the noob'.  And if they ask for nibbles or soda - tell them where they can find them and that they can grab you one while they're there!

2) Stick up a post over on Randomlings House.  I only played a couple of games with Randomling before I moved away from London but I really got on with her.  There had been another girl in the group (Stalking Blue) who had felt a similar 'male oppressiveness' in gaming and might be able to give you better pointers than those of us suffering from testosterone poisoning.  I don't want to give you the impression that their group was a bunch of ignorant jocks - they were all really great in the brief time I gamed with them - but Stalking Blue must have seen another side of things and might be able to offer up some advice.

Meantime - get into a game, tell them where to stuff it and welcome to the boards

The Hoard


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## Hand of Evil (Apr 14, 2005)

Welcome to the board.


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## Mystery Man (Apr 14, 2005)

Sarajaine"The Solar" said:
			
		

> I am a girl who looks as tho she would'nt know the first thing about gaming let alone the intricacies of playing the DnD and the world that goes along with it.




What's on your head? Looking at avatar...


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## Vraille Darkfang (Apr 14, 2005)

Current Game(s):

My wife plays a F Amythest Dragon Rogue (no rogue levels, but takes anything not nailed down), in our high level game and a M Kobold Rogue in my low level game.

The 13 year old daughter of one of the guys in my game plays a rather bloodthirsty half elf/celestial cleric in the high level game & a (toned-down) nymph (one that actually wears clothes thankfully) in the low level.

Female gamers are becoming an increasing force in the gaming industry.  In fact, that is why some traditional gamers seem to be opposed to female gamers.  In that, as females purchase more and more gaming stuff, more and more publishers will try to tailor their products to this new, emerging market.  Sort of how economics works.  As WotC & other RPG comapnies seek to expand their fan base, some older fans will complain.  Whether that is females, CCG people, Video Games, etc.  

Don't take it personal.  You game, good for you.  You don't game, good for you.  You keep your boyfriend from gaming, shame on you.

On the other hand.  You hide a signifacnt part of who you are from your girlfriend, shame on you.  If she won't accept gaming, there are greater issuse that need to be worked out.

After all, it's not like you were killing door to door salesmen & burying them in the basement.

Good Gaming (Hope you show the boys how a real gamer plays)!


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## Tom Cashel (Apr 14, 2005)

Sarajaine"The Solar" said:
			
		

> Is it just that we are the of the opposite sex or that you are afraid to let us into your world for fear we will see you at your most vulnerable and the concept of seeing you getting excited or even moved at slaying a dragon may make you lose any sexual credibility and make you less of a man.




What are you...a psychiatrist?



			
				Sarajaine"The Solar" said:
			
		

> Its like a no go area and having testosterone is your members only card.




Surgery's always an option.



> _For Your Enlightenment_
> *
> THE PARABLE OF THE BITTER TEA*
> 
> ...


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## Sarajaine"The Solar" (Apr 14, 2005)

Its really a case of my boyfriends gaming friends feeling that women and dnd don't mix and its refreshing to know that many gamers out there don't have the same opinion. 

I m not sure that given the choice I would play as I feel that it is my bf's hobby but not being able to have the option due to opinionated players is the thing that gets my back up!

I live in a place where the small group of gamers tend to hang round in the same circles so with them feeling this way,finding a group to play with is like finding a needle in a haystack.


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## Mark Hope (Apr 14, 2005)

I don't get the "girls can't game" thing either - all of my past groups have had women in them.  Doesn't make a blind bit of difference as far as I can tell.

But I do think you should play a solar, though...


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## gideonn (Apr 14, 2005)

I think your experience is not of the norm, at least not today's norm. I have run game clubs in the high schools where I have taught since c. 1980. In the eighties club, there was only one girl during the three years the club lasted. But this girl did play in my outside of school game along with her father, sister, and my wife. 

In the 1992-2005 clubs there have been many passing through, including two mainstays the past three years, now serving as co-presidents. These two, excellent gamers BTW, tell me that their female friends try to disuade them from staying in the club over the years, and haved refused my invitations to 'give it a try' in a girls only setting.  So, here the prejudice is female, not male. 

With the advent of the many 'Living' campaigns I have met many solo female gamers, as well as girlfriends, wives and other semi-attachments. Never seen any kind of problem. Our current Friday night game; some Living, some homebrew; has a regular female member with the ocassional guest woman. 

If you cannot find acceptance with the Men's clubs, perhaps you have some like minded and like interested female friends who could make a group of our own. It has also been my experience that if you run a good game people will want to join it. 

Just my two sense,

JJ


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## Sarajaine"The Solar" (Apr 14, 2005)

Vraille Darkfang said:
			
		

> The 13 year old daughter of one of the guys in my game plays a rather bloodthirsty half elf/celestial cleric in the high level game & a (toned-down) nymph (one that actually wears clothes thankfully) in the low level.




I'm currently 5 months pregnant with our 1st daughter. My partner really wanted a boy so he could bring him up on all things dnd and even have a father and son gaming tag team going on. when we found out we were having a girl he was slightly dissapointed that this was no longer the case. I suggested that he could still bring her up to be a great gamer but he lacked enthusiasm....so I plan to instead!


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## MonkeyDragon (Apr 14, 2005)

I, too, am a woman gamer.  And I say "hear hear!"

Fortunately, I haven't had any problems with my gaming group.  In the games I've played, as a player and a dm, the female representation averages out at a just over 50%.  And all the guys in all the games know how to treat a lady: exactly the same as you treat the guy sitting next to her.  And I think that the majority of the guys here on EN World are just the same.  

Still, I've heard some horror stories, and I've read some posts that make me shake my head.  Lacking the search function, I can't actually cite anything, but they're speckled here and there.  Although a lot of guys like to point out that they're not stereotypical, socially inept geeks, some need to remember that we are not exotic, incomprehensible alien creatures.  We game because it's fun, just like you.

I will also echo the original poster:  geeks are hot.  Seriously, I can't imagine seeing a guy who wasn't a geek.  If his eyes glaze over when I'm talking about ECLs, relating a hilarious tale of what so and so's character did last week, or mulling over a plot point in an adventure I'm working on, what on earth are we going to talk about?  The real world?  Psh.  If he doesn't get that Sunday is gaming day, and that if he wants to see me there'd better be dice in his hand, so long!  But give me a gamer guy that's confidant and proud of his geekhood, and I'll be on that like a template on an NPC.  Double bonus if he posts on EN World.

My advice?  First, give your boyfriend's group a shot.  You might be worried about nothing.  And if they give you a hard time, then drop em.  Do what these other fine folks have suggested and find a group that doesn't fear a second X chromosome.  Even better?  Find a group of girls to play with.  It might be hard to find, but a ladies night of monster smashing could be grand, grand fun.


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## Sarajaine"The Solar" (Apr 14, 2005)

Wraith Form said:
			
		

> Did you hear that?
> 
> That was the sound of me falling in love.....




hehe cheeky


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## Sarajaine"The Solar" (Apr 14, 2005)

Mark Hope said:
			
		

> I don't get the "girls can't game" thing either - all of my past groups have had women in them. Doesn't make a blind bit of difference as far as I can tell.
> 
> But I do think you should play a solar, though...




HAHA I know but they have a really high CR and they look the biz  I Know better now and have opted for half elf/druid.


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## Sarajaine"The Solar" (Apr 14, 2005)

Mystery Man said:
			
		

> What's on your head? Looking at avatar...




My magically delcious sun elf boyfriend + goatee


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## Belen (Apr 14, 2005)

Sarajaine"The Solar" said:
			
		

> I'm currently 5 months pregnant with our 1st daughter. My partner really wanted a boy so he could bring him up on all things dnd and even have a father and son gaming tag team going on. when we found out we were having a girl he was slightly dissapointed that this was no longer the case. I suggested that he could still bring her up to be a great gamer but he lacked enthusiasm....so I plan to instead!




I am very sorry that you have not met any quality gamers.  I must also say that you should knock the mess out of your partner for being such a a sexist pig-dog.


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## Desdichado (Apr 14, 2005)

MonkeyDragon said:
			
		

> I, too, am a woman gamer.  And I say "hear hear!"



For a second there I read that as I am woman, here me roar.    

Anyway, what does "near Detroit" mean?  We game mostly in Canton, with players from White Lake, West Bloomfield and Dearborn.  We're always on the lookout to at least meet folks in the area who game.


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## Lasher Dragon (Apr 14, 2005)

Sarajaine"The Solar" said:
			
		

> My original reason for writing this drivel was that girls seemed to get a severe mocking when it comes to having an interest in Dnd.




Whaaaaa? What planet are you from? I have tried in vain for years to get women I dated to try D&D. I am married now and have tried numerous times to elicit some interest from her in something I love and play once a week and every other weekend. It confounds me that most women have little or no interest in it because as children, girls love to roleplay. I've never heard of a woman being ridiculed for an interest in D&D, in fact it is the opposite in my experience. IME when you hear of a woman gamer, 95% of the time the reaction is "Really? Cool!"


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## WayneLigon (Apr 14, 2005)

If they pat you on the head, get 'em in a headlock and stuff d20's up their nose until they scream 'uncle'.


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## yennico (Apr 14, 2005)

Welcome on board.


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## BigFreekinGoblinoid (Apr 14, 2005)

Welcome.

I'm over it.  I'd be ecstatic if my 5 mos. pregnant ( it's a girl, and I couldn't be happier! ) wife would show any interest in the game, let alone reading some of my books.  

Buy your own PHB. 

Play the game! 

Call out anyone who treats you condescendingly or otherwise. 

Have fun! 

I'm sure the other players will be just fine after a few sessions...


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## Laurel (Apr 14, 2005)

Hey! I'm a girl as well, and though I understand and have had boys react in such a way to me as well I simply choose to ignore them and find other people who share this intrest.  There are lots of guys and even lots of girls who play rpg's including DnD.  And they play them because they love them and most don't hold the attitudes of those you apparently are associating with.  

Also, I say boys in the first sentence because come on! if a guy can't deal with a girl being able to play iwth the same intellect or role playing abilities then he is at most simply a boy who still has a lot to learn.

Just as not every female is better not every male is better either.

And by not letting you or anyone play to thier full potential is just hurting thier game.

Anyways, I would have gotten annoyed way before this and probably walk off long ago if they couldn't deal, but different strokes for different folks.


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## Sarajaine"The Solar" (Apr 14, 2005)

BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> I am very sorry that you have not met any quality gamers. I must also say that you should knock the mess out of your partner for being such a a sexist pig-dog.




Nah he is a darling really,all his friends are they just can't help having a little dig sometimes about dnd+girls don't mix


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## Desdichado (Apr 14, 2005)

Sarajaine"The Solar" said:
			
		

> Nah he is a darling really,all his friends are they just can't help having a little dig sometimes about dnd+girls don't mix



As ridiculous as that seems to me, I know that the idea of D&D being a Boys Only club is not unique.  My suggestion would be to respect that, since fighting it is probably not going to lead to any fun gaming at all.  Look for another group that you and your boyfriend can both participate in together without the hassle.


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## Sarajaine"The Solar" (Apr 14, 2005)

I think that when male gamers say that there are not many female gamers and that it ts a rare thing to find women who bring something to the game.
If guys talked more about RPG's and were'nt such closet geeks and actually gave girls a chance then the ratio of guy and girl gamers would be pretty even.

I hate to start somekind of feminist rebellion its just a shame that we don't get the same acceptance. All the gamers on this thread are ruled out for being pretty genuine nice people of course


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## John Morrow (Apr 14, 2005)

Sarajaine"The Solar" said:
			
		

> Is it just that we are the of the opposite sex or that you are afraid to let us into your world for fear we will see you at your most vulnerable and the concept of seeing you getting excited or even moved at slaying a dragon may make you lose any sexual credibility and make you less of a man.




First, I think that's pretty close to the problem that at least some men have with role-playing with women.  Basically, a lot of men say things around other men that they wouldn't say around women.  They feel more free when only men are around to open up and say what they really think.  Sometimes it's because they are sexist pigs and sometimes it's simply that they don't want women to see them living out a power fantasy out of fear that the women will will judge them or mock them for it.  Either way, it makes them want to avoid women in their games.

When I was in high school (over two decades ago), a bunch of people I knew played Traveller.  One of the guys (a nice guy, actually, not a sexist pig) used to play characters like "Force Commander Megaton", over the top gung-ho military types who run toward danger.  One day, a friend brought his girlfriend into a game and he became a quiet mouse sitting in the corner, despite being a fairly large and not-geeky guy.  Basically, he couldn't open up and let loose with a girl at the table.

Second, I've noticed that the reason why some (not all -- *some*) women are ignored is that, by male standards, they don't speak up and demand to be heard.  During some of our games years ago, we'd notice that a friend's wife looked frustrated because she couldn't get a word.  She was waiting for a pause in the conversation and there simply wasn't one, so she said nothing.  We'd let her speak when we noticed but we wouldn't always notice.  We finally told her, "Speak up and interrupt us if you want to say somethign."  That's what all of the guys do to each other and some of the women we know do the same thing.  But some women (and some men, I suspect) think that it's rude to interrupt so they are never given a chance to say anything.  If the social rules of a group require you to speak up to be heard, then speak up and interrupt just like the guys do and don't worry about being rude.  If they do think you are rude (or another word that rhymes with witchy), then you could have a sexism problem.

Third, plenty of women role-play and you can find role-players by creating them.  If your partner's group can't work for you for a variety of reasons, go find your own group or create your own out of your other friends who are interested.  You don't need to learn to play from someone else.  I learned from the books, alone, and you can, too.  Yes, the advantage of learning from someone else is that you'll pick things up more quickly and won't make as many mistakes.  But there is a downside to learning from someone else, too.  You pick up all of their mistakes, biases, and limitations rather than figuring out what you want out of role-playing.  So my suggestion is to find some other friends who might be interested in playing and try your hands at running a game.


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## dungeon blaster (Apr 14, 2005)

I'm gonna address a few issues in your rant.  Please don't take anything too personally.



			
				Sarajaine"The Solar" said:
			
		

> I am a girl who looks as tho she would'nt know the first thing about gaming let alone the intricacies of playing the DnD and the world that goes along with it.




I think you are fishing for attention here. Your argument in this rant is that as a girl you are treated unfairly. There's no need to mention your looks.



> For a long time my boyfriend , who is a avid gamer and his mates had me labeled as a girl who should be seen and not heard on this subject and that I would be oblivious to the details and probably not the type to play or have as much enthusiasm as they clearly do.
> 
> I don't get this assumption at all:\ I think most guys feel that the nearest women get to being involved in a game is when we totter round wearing our aprons handing out mid encounter nibbles before disappearing into the background.




A valid point, although once again you refer to your looks.



> Is it just that we are the of the opposite sex or that you are afraid to let us into your world for fear we will see you at your most vulnerable and the concept of seeing you getting excited or even moved at slaying a dragon may make you lose any sexual credibility and make you less of a man.
> 
> There are some women and I am most certainly one of them who think that guys who are geeks are extremely hot!




I think for many guys, it is the fear that the girl will think they are a loser. Most guys (of my age) WILL lose "sexual credibility", and therefore be less of a man. It's the sad but honest truth, gaming is a turn-off to many, many girls. I'm glad you aren't one of them.



> Plus I feel that gaming is like any other hobby be it tennis or basketball. In fact I feel that it stimulates the mind and is a very healthy past time. I would much rather my man conjure spells and be doing something constructive and fun than a belching,scratching yob leering at a football game.




I'd say that it is mentally stimulating, but not a "healthy" past time. I mean, you are sitting around for hours, usually eating junk food and drinking soda, and you aren't even outdoors.



> The point I am making is that I know from first hand experience with my boyfriend that gamers love what they do with a passion so why are you ashamed of it?




Many gamers are ashamed begins society shames them. It's only natural for them to hide something that society views as immature, geeky, and for people who can't get a date on a friday night.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


> My original reason for writing this drivel was that girls seemed to get a severe mocking when it comes to having an interest in Dnd.
> I sit in my front room nearly every other day reading Ben's MM and pretty much every piece of literature he has on the subject. We have been together for a while now so it is not some failed attempt to impress him it is genuinely because I fine the whole subject fascinating.
> I listen to him talk for hours on the phone about encounters he has had and his party members feats and I listen in awe.
> What bugs me is why whenever girls talk about DnD or claim they know someting related to it we get laughed at!
> Its like a no go area and having testosterone is your members only card.




This is unfortunate, but not not endemic to all gaming groups. While I'm sure you could find another group of people who would treat you well, I doubt you want to do that. I'll try to provide a few reasons why they may be acting like this. First, as strange as it sounds, D&D is often a testosterone saturated activity, primarily because there are a LOT more male gamers and when you get a lot of men together ... well, there's a lot of testosterone. Some men may resent a woman intruding on what they feel is "guy time". Second, some gamers have little to no social skills, especially when it comes to females. Now, I don't want to see anyone post a long rant about how they are super suave, get all the ladies, are first picked for dodgeball, blah blah blah. I'm not talking about you, I'm talking about the substantial number of guys in this hobby who shower, have cheeto stains on their shirt, and were president of the A/V club.



> My boyfriend recently posted a thread about gaming and girlfriends and my interest in it and someone wisely suggested that he should let me play at one of his games and get me actively participating.
> As sweet (and naive) as this comment was, I would'nt dream of playing with a group of his friends as I would surely get laughed at, patronisingly patted on my head and may even get called "rookie" or asked to get make the drinks.



I think the advice is good, give it a shot. It will be a kodak moment when you correct a guy on the rules. Also understand that getting called rookie is pretty common when you are new to any testosterone saturated activity. Just be glad you aren't a guy... you'd probably suffer even more. Of course, that doesn't mean you have to accept their behavior (and you shouldn't).



> I admit that my appearance may be my down fall as I look like I would be more in tuned to the topic of cheerleading than talk of expeditions in Faerun.




You aren't admitting anything, you are just bragging.


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## IcyCool (Apr 14, 2005)

Sarajaine"The Solar" said:
			
		

> Is it just that we are the of the opposite sex or that you are afraid to let us into your world for fear we will see you at your most vulnerable and the concept of seeing you getting excited or even moved at slaying a dragon may make you lose any sexual credibility and make you less of a man.




As was said before, that's a pretty big chip on your shoulder.  Calm down, we're generally a nice bunch of people here 



			
				Sarajaine"The Solar" said:
			
		

> There are some women and I am most certainly one of them who think that guys who are geeks are extremely hot!




That would be why I married my wife 



			
				Sarajaine"The Solar" said:
			
		

> What bugs me is why whenever girls talk about DnD or claim they know someting related to it we get laughed at!






			
				Sarajaine"The Solar" said:
			
		

> As sweet (and naive) as this comment was, I would'nt dream of playing with a group of his friends as I would surely get laughed at, patronisingly patted on my head and may even get called "rookie" or asked to get make the drinks.




Out of curiousity, have you asked to join in on these games?  Have you asked your boyfriend?  What about his group?  Are there other gaming groups in your area that you could join?

I ask because if you have tried the above (not just assumed they won't work), your situation is indeed lamentable.  If you haven't and are just complaining, well, everyone needs to rant and blow off steam once in a while, but unless you try to get involved, you really do have only yourself to blame, and will get no sympathy from me.

That sounds more blunt than I wanted it to, but I can't think of a good way to rephrase it.  If it sounds like I'm insulting you, then that's not how it was intended. 

Do your boyfriend's buddies really treat you the way you seem to be saying they do?  Or are you just assuming that is how they will treat you?

If they actually treat you this way, then stand up for yourself lass, don't sit there and meekly take it!  Or, alternatively, give me the address that your boyfriend and his buddies game at and I'll send my wife over there.  6'2" of beautiful, slightly feminist, college-boxing trained, amazonian fury.  I guarantee that those boys will know how to respect women after they get out of traction.


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## Sarajaine"The Solar" (Apr 14, 2005)

Laurel said:
			
		

> And by not letting you or anyone play to thier full potential is just hurting thier game.



Its not the case that I can't play (or maybe it is) its just that some people have opinions on girls gaming and its loud and clear without them saying a word. Who am I to invade on a game that has been played by the same group of guys for years. I don't really wish to participate I just would appreciate the exceptance that I take an interest in their hobby and to be to be taken seriously for it.


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## TheAuldGrump (Apr 14, 2005)

Every single group I have ever run a game for has had at least one female player. And I have been playing since 1975.

Most of the groups have also had players who tried to bring girlfriends/wives into the game, with varying degrees of success. It runs to about 50% as to whether the significant other continues to play more than 2 weeks. It seems like the more enthusiastic they are to start with the more enthusiastic they remain, while those who are dragged to the game do not have a good time, and never do, often they make sure that nobody else does either. Curiosity counts as enthusiasm in this instance.

All the groups have acted pleased as punch when a female player was there for more than a month. Those female gamers who joined when the groups were forming invariably stayed with the group, but then they are also the ones who answered posters on the walls at game shops.  I do not think that I have run into more than one or two really antifemale players, though I have met some who tried _way_ too hard to be friendly, while smelling like the bottom of a baboon cage.

My current OGL Steampunk group has six players, two are female, and no baboon cage. Ah well, folk's experiences differ.

The Auld Grump


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## Sarajaine"The Solar" (Apr 14, 2005)

IcyCool said:
			
		

> As was said before, that's a pretty big chip on your shoulder. Calm down, we're generally a nice bunch of people here




My boyfriend  and his mates are a very nice bunch of people and It is not the caseof me wanting to play the game with them. I am very aware that many people on this forum and worldwide have an exceptance of women in RPG's. This post was for the people out there who happen to think that dnd is not for girls. You obviously feel that anyone can play and for that I salute you. This thread was not to slate the dnd world whilst burning my bra in protest. This was a stand to say that girls have just as much right to play as guys and for those who agree with me then state your opinion don't think Im an irate girl with a chip on my shoulder.


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## Will Nelson (Apr 14, 2005)

Sarajaine"The Solar" said:
			
		

> Is it just that we are the of the opposite sex or that you are afraid to let us into your world for fear we will see you at your most vulnerable and the concept of seeing you getting excited or even moved at slaying a dragon may make you lose any sexual credibility and make you less of a man.



Personally, I keep girls out of my games because I'm afraid at how turned on they will become when they hear how I'm slaying a dragon. A man can do with only so many distractions while gaming.  

Seriously, I'd love if more girls gamed. Girls have a tendency to be, well, how can I put this? To be...more intelligent. Yeah, that sums it up. Girls are usually a lot smarter than guys, and I'd enjoy the chance to play a very cerebral game with them.


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## Tom Cashel (Apr 14, 2005)

Sarajaine"The Solar" said:
			
		

> I would much rather my man conjure spells and be doing something constructive and fun than a belching, scratching yob leering at a football game.




I game a lot, but (as many people around here will attest to) I also enjoy drinking a few beers and yelling my head off at a hockey game (when there are hockey games to watch). I also write, love music, sing, play a little guitar, like to exercise, hang out with my wife and son, big film fanatic, have done a little acting, etc. I am more than "GAMER."

My point is that you seem to be bothered about negative stereotypes. Why on earth would you use such a negative stereotype of males to justify your argument?


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## glass (Apr 14, 2005)

I don't have any girls in either of my groups at the moment, but I have had in the past. Never had a negative experience with any of them (well, no negative _gaming_ experiences anyway).

IME, females have had, on average, a better grasp of the finer points of role-playing than equivalently experienced male gamers. If I have any preconceptions (and I try not to) regarding female gamers, they would be of that nature.

Long shot, but if you can get to Coventry, come join us!   


glass.


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## IcyCool (Apr 14, 2005)

dungeon blaster said:
			
		

> I think for many guys, it is the fear that the girl will think they are a loser. Most guys (of my age) WILL lose "sexual credibility", and therefore be less of a man. It's the sad but honest truth, gaming is a turn-off to many, many girls. I'm glad you aren't one of them.




I'd just like to state that "sexual credibility" does not make a man.  Seriously.  If you like gaming, there is no need to be ashamed of it.  If you are, then you either shouldn't game anymore (stop doing something that embarasses you), or you are undergoing certain hormonal changes (not yet physically a man, and most definitely not mentally a man).  If a girl finds gaming a turn-off, and you like to game, then it's not going to work out.  Plenty more fish in the sea and all that.



			
				dungeon blaster said:
			
		

> Some men may resent a woman intruding on what they feel is "guy time". Second, some gamers have little to no social skills, especially when it comes to females.




I'd just like to point out that IMO, these individuals are not men.  Not mentally anyway.  But YMMV.



			
				dungeon blaster said:
			
		

> I think the advice is good, give it a shot. It will be a kodak moment when you correct a guy on the rules. Also understand that getting called rookie is pretty common when you are new to any testosterone saturated activity. Just be glad you aren't a guy... you'd probably suffer even more. Of course, that doesn't mean you have to accept their behavior (and you shouldn't).




I agree with this statement.  And it states what I was trying to say in my last post more clearly than I did.


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## Krieg (Apr 14, 2005)

Sarajaine"The Solar" said:
			
		

> This post was for the people out there who happen to think that dnd is not for girls.




aka "a rant".


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## I'm A Banana (Apr 14, 2005)

> I think that when male gamers say that there are not many female gamers and that it ts a rare thing to find women who bring something to the game.
> If guys talked more about RPG's and were'nt such closet geeks and actually gave girls a chance then the ratio of guy and girl gamers would be pretty even.
> 
> I hate to start somekind of feminist rebellion its just a shame that we don't get the same acceptance. All the gamers on this thread are ruled out for being pretty genuine nice people of course




Y'know, I think that probably a good majority of long-term partners have the exact same convo with their guys, only it's about, say, monday night football or the poker night or friday night with the boys at the bars or whatever.

The thing isn't that this is a D&D thing. It's that for your co-hottie (or at least his buds) it's a guy thing. There's a lot of guys out there who have "boys nights out" with poker or baseball or bars or whatever. D&D is just a way for your dude and his dudes to have a boy's night out.

So I would suggest handling this the same way that "poker widows" have handled it for years: don't try to muscle in on his guy-time. That's his time to fart and drink and be a man, or at least it apparently his for his friends. Adding another gender to the mix that they feel they have to be gentlemen around (whether or not they really do) obviously makes them feel odd, and I'd be willing to bet your boy feels it, too, but doesn't want to be a jerk about it. 

That's not to say that you can't play D&D with him or that you're forbidden from the hobby because you're a beatiful woman. But instead of trying to jump in on his guy-friend-time, maybe ask him to help you game with you and some of your friends? Or maybe learn the game yourself, and have a little girls' night D&D alongside his guy's night D&D?  

But IMHO, this has a lot less to do with D&D, and a lot more to do with the simple fact that most guys need someplace where they can stink and fart and make jokes about how women and The Man suck and generally be socially acceptable only to each other. D&D is how he and his friends get that quality male-bonding time. Trying to wedge yourself into that is aksing for trouble that has nothing to do with the game itself, and more to do with an atmosphere of fraternity. Let him have his guy time. But since you think you'd LOVE the game, too, you don't need to compromise your own interest just because in his mind it's tied to his male-bonding moments. You know the books, you've seen a game or two, get some friends, tell your man, and spend your Monday nights pretending to be a sun elf, too. Just, do what you can to not have to jump in on his guy-time to do it.

-- Kamikaze Midget, who has been converting totally hot cheerleader girls to the Dork Side since 2000.

PS: ...some of you guys sound WAY more torqued off about this than you should be. Lighten up.


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## Tom Cashel (Apr 14, 2005)

Sarajaine"The Solar" said:
			
		

> I don't really wish to participate I just would appreciate the exceptance that I take an interest in their hobby and to be to be taken seriously for it.




Okay...so you don't really want to play at all. You just want to raise a big stink over something you don't actually want to do anyway.

What was that Bob Dylan song? "Just Like A Woman"?


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## Arnwyn (Apr 14, 2005)

Sarajaine"The Solar" said:
			
		

> This post was for the people out there who happen to think that dnd is not for girls.



Well, guess it looks like your post has a very limited audience, then.


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## focallength (Apr 14, 2005)

Sarajaine"The Solar" said:
			
		

> I am a girl who looks as tho she would'nt know the first thing about gaming let alone the intricacies of playing the DnD and the world that goes along with it.
> For a long time my boyfriend , who is a avid gamer and his mates had me labeled as a girl who should be seen and not heard on this subject and that I would be oblivious to the details and probably not the type to play or have as much enthusiasm as they clearly do.
> 
> I don't get this assumption at all:\ I think most guys feel that the nearest women get to being involved in a game is when we totter round wearing our aprons handing out mid encounter nibbles before disappearing into the background.
> ...




Will you marry me?


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## IcyCool (Apr 14, 2005)

Sarajaine"The Solar" said:
			
		

> My boyfriend  and his mates are a very nice bunch of people and It is not the caseof me wanting to play the game with them. I am very aware that many people on this forum and worldwide have an exceptance of women in RPG's. This post was for the people out there who happen to think that dnd is not for girls. You obviously feel that anyone can play and for that I salute you. This thread was not to slate the dnd world whilst burning my bra in protest. This was a stand to say that girls have just as much right to play as guys and for those who agree with me then state your opinion don't think Im an irate girl with a chip on my shoulder.




Well, I don't agree with your initial post/rant, but I do agree that girls have just as much right to play DnD as guys.


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## Tom Cashel (Apr 14, 2005)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> So I would suggest handling this the same way that "poker widows" have handled it for years: don't try to muscle in on his guy-time. That's his time to fart and drink and be a man, or at least it apparently his for his friends. Adding another gender to the mix that they feel they have to be gentlemen around (whether or not they really do) obviously makes them feel odd, and I'd be willing to bet your boy feels it, too, but doesn't want to be a jerk about it.




Once again, KM, you have crystallized my unbound thoughts into something tangible.

Speak it, brother!


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## Sarajaine"The Solar" (Apr 14, 2005)

dungeon blaster said:
			
		

> You aren't admitting anything, you are just bragging.




I believe my thread to be lighthearted and a general observation for the world I live in and the people that surround me. This may not be your world and you may feel very different about this subject than I do. I was merely expressing that women should get the same credit  for enjoying the game as men...no more and no less. In regard to the comment about myself and my looks,bragging has nothing to do with it. In the world we live in everyone is fit into a steriotype whether we care to admit it or not. Most gamers have a distinctive quality about them and you can usually spot a gamer a mile off. I was only saying am not one of those people as I look like a typical girly girl and if anything I was taking the piss out of myself. This is a bit of fun and although everyone is intitled to there opinion,there is a line you cross when you become offensive.


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## Sarajaine"The Solar" (Apr 14, 2005)

Tom Cashel said:
			
		

> Okay...so you don't really want to play at all. You just want to raise a big stink over something you don't actually want to do anyway.
> 
> What was that Bob Dylan song? "Just Like A Woman"?




Because it boils down to principal. The attitude people have about girls shoul'nt play dnd makes people like me not want to really play at all. If they were open minded I would love too.


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## Amy Kou'ai (Apr 14, 2005)

MonkeyDragon said:
			
		

> And all the guys in all the games know how to treat a lady: exactly the same as you treat the guy sitting next to her.  And I think that the majority of the guys here on EN World are just the same.




I must admit that this breaks down somewhat when people are willing to make sexual comments about the guy sitting next to me, which of course means that this applies to me, too.


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## glass (Apr 14, 2005)

Tom Cashel said:
			
		

> Sarajaine"The Solar" said:
> 
> 
> 
> > I would much rather my man conjure spells and be doing something constructive and fun than a belching, scratching yob leering at a football game.




Oh, I missed this bit the first time around.

As a season ticket holder at Coventry City Football Club, I watch (association) football about every other week. I even have a few drinks beforehand, and sometimes afterwards aswell. However, I don't belch or leer (especially not at a bunch of blokes at a football match) and I am not a yob.

And I don't get how 'scratching' is an insult (which I assume from the tone of the rest of the sentance it is presumably meant to be): everybody scratches if they have an itch, don't they?

And guess what: A large chunk of the crowd at Highfield Road each game are female themselves. Leering yobs? Don't think so.



			
				Tom Cashel said:
			
		

> My point is that you seem to be bothered about negative stereotypes. Why on earth would you use such a negative stereotype of males to justify your argument?




Quite.


glass.


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## Sarajaine"The Solar" (Apr 14, 2005)

Krieg said:
			
		

> aka "a rant".



 hehe its amusing to me that the guys say im ranting but the female gamers on this thread have the same opinion as me


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## Vraille Darkfang (Apr 14, 2005)

dungeon blaster said:
			
		

> I think you are fishing for attention here. Your argument in this rant is that as a girl you are treated unfairly. There's no need to mention your looks.
> 
> 
> 
> A valid point, although once again you refer to your looks.




Actually, she isn't mentioning her looks, but her appearence.  Not so much, look at how HOT I am, but I don't LOOK like the idea of a gamer chick.

This could just mean she wears skirts, dresses, has a hello kitty purse, etc...

Sterotype city ahead:

There is (wrongly) a percieved impression what a "Gamer Chick" looks like.  It not the most flattering picture (of course niether is the "Gamer Guy" sterotype.  Watch X-Play, G4, E! or any show on TV when the actually cover Gen Con, Orgins, E-3.  While they tend to cover it from a "Here is the Forgotten Realms, lets see what Video Games are coming out for it this year!"  They also walk around with a mic & talk to people men & women.  You'll notice that the women fall into 2 categories "Booth Babe" and "Gamer Chick"  Booth Babe being some model paid to hang out in skimpy clothing for the day.  Gamer Chick being well, a female version of the male sterotype.

In effect, girls who aren't bookish, eyeglass wearing types shouldn't be gamers.

It isn't a good sterotype (heck, it ain't even remotely close to reality), but it is there.

So just because she kkeps refereing to her appearence doesn't mean she expects Playboy to give her a call, it probablly refers more to her mannerisms, dress, & other elemements more associated with "Style" than with Physical Appearence.  Comliness vs Charisma if you will.


----------



## twofalls (Apr 14, 2005)

I'm going to quote myself here. I posted this in the G+G thread, but it seems more appropriate here. I run two games, each with females in them (one female in each). Both are excellent roleplayers and none of my other friends treat them any differently than they do each other. My wife has been the exception, but then she is rather exceptional.  I let Katy play in a game once (and only once) and she fell asleep. That was the end of her playing in my games, but she does enjoy reading Knights of the Dinner Table and Dork Tower comic satire about gamers!



			
				Twofalls said:
			
		

> Well, my experience isn't hiding gaming from girlfriends, I've been married since I was nineteen and my wife knew I was a gamer the day we started dating at 16. In spite of that knowledge we’ve been married for 16 years and I couldn’t be more in love. But goodness do have a lot of funny stories to tell about her and gamers. You see I'm a rather lucky fellow in that Katy is gorgeous... by anyone's standard. She gets flirted with all the time, has been asked out more times than I can even begin to count, and even by men who already knows she's married (which just pisses her off to no end). I’m not Mr, Attractive so I guess these guys think that she is available because we don’t seem to match when you look at us casually.
> 
> I've run a lot of games over the years, and nearly always at my house as I have always had a game room of one kind or another. I've run the same group of fellows for just over eight years so they are all quite used to Katy being around now. She is very friendly and has a talent for making people feel comfortable, unfortunately some guys think this means that she has taken a shine to them, when in fact its just her lovely nature.
> 
> ...




Edit: Oh, the reason why this is relevent is because I have experienced the things that have been alluded to in this post. Lots of guys are uncomfortable with women in this game. Nor do I think that the orignal poster was "fishing for attention" by mentioning her looks. The more attractive the lady the more intense the discomfort seems to be.


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## Truth Seeker (Apr 14, 2005)

Sarajaine"The Solar", welcome to the boards, *forgive the lateness, busy elsewhere*, second, as stated by others, the game is for everyone. I have pushed silently in my group, to have women players to join the game, and so far. It is working. The hang ups are from a lack of open minded experience in society. But give it time, people will come around, some...but not all. Which is better than nothing.

And HAPPY gaming!!!


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## Sarajaine"The Solar" (Apr 14, 2005)

glass said:
			
		

> Oh, I missed this bit the first time around.
> 
> As a season ticket holder at Coventry City Football Club, I watch (association) football about every other week. I even have a few drinks beforehand, and sometimes afterwards aswell. However, I don't belch or leer (especially not at a bunch of blokes at a football match) and I am not a yob.
> 
> ...



 I live in Middlesbrough and looking at a large  majority of their fans thats exactly what you get


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## Sarajaine"The Solar" (Apr 14, 2005)

Truth Seeker said:
			
		

> Sarajaine"The Solar", welcome to the boards, *forgive the lateness, busy elsewhere*, second, as stated by others, the game is for everyone. I have pushed silently in my group, to have women players to join the game, and so far. It is working. The hang ups are from a lack of open minded experience in society. But give it time, people will come around, some...but not all. Which is better than nothing.
> 
> And HAPPY gaming!!!



 thank you very much


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## TheAuldGrump (Apr 14, 2005)

Vraille Darkfang said:
			
		

> Actually, she isn't mentioning her looks, but her appearence.  Not so much, look at how HOT I am, but I don't LOOK like the idea of a gamer chick.
> 
> This could just mean she wears skirts, dresses, has a hello kitty purse, etc...
> 
> ...




Hmmm, about a quarter of the female gamers I know fit the 'Gamer Girl' stereotype, most don't. The single 'Boothbabe' I know is also a gamer, though mind you it has been twenty years since either of us have been to a big con. She already had her own chainmail bikini. (Hi Gig! ) 

The Auld Grump


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## Will Nelson (Apr 14, 2005)

dungeon blaster said:
			
		

> I think for many guys, it is the fear that the girl will think they are a loser. Most guys (of my age) WILL lose "sexual credibility", and therefore be less of a man. It's the sad but honest truth, gaming is a turn-off to many, many girls. I'm glad you aren't one of them.



Gaming, in and of itself, is not a turn-off. You're using it as an excuse for yourself, no offense. If a girl knows you game, and you act like it's a big deal, something that will impact your sexual credibility, then it will. Not because of the gaming, but because you're acting like a twit.

If a girl finds out you game, and you non-chalantly pass it off as something you enjoy, you'll have more sexual credibility for being comfortable with who you are. That's an incredible turn on for girls, yet so few guys pull it off.

The same applies with hanging out with the guys, but in a much less sexual way. If you do something that's not manly, and then you clam up when someone brings it up, you're gonna get ripped on. But if you do that same thing and calmly pass it off as just being another part of your personality, then that's that. I, for example, could have a good conversation about clothing or interior decorating. Great skills when conversing with women, not so great with the guys. I don't go around initiating those conversations with guys, but if someone tries to bust on me for something like that, it doesn't bother me. Be a bit self-deprecating, laugh along, and then move on.

Some people just need to learn how to be more comfortable with who they are, whoever that might be.


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## Sarajaine"The Solar" (Apr 14, 2005)

Vraille Darkfang said:
			
		

> Actually, she isn't mentioning her looks, but her appearence. Not so much, look at how HOT I am, but I don't LOOK like the idea of a gamer chick.
> 
> This could just mean she wears skirts, dresses, has a hello kitty purse, etc...



 THANK U! Its fair to say that was exactly my point. I don't look like a gamer chick and hate steriotype as much as the next person. I just feel that you would'nt get the "she likes RPG's vibe from me" that was it!


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## Krieg (Apr 14, 2005)

Sarajaine"The Solar" said:
			
		

> hehe its amusing to me that the guys say im ranting but the female gamers on this thread have the same opinion as me




It is far more revealing to me that you use "the guys" as a blanket statement that clearly isn't true regarding the responses in this thread. 

Most of the men in the thread have been nothing but supportive and yet you manage to lump everyone into a single group.

Your initial post was a rant, nothing more nothing less.

That doesn't make it a bad thing and certainly not a "female" thing. It also doesn't require a disengenous sexism defense.


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## Umbran (Apr 14, 2005)

Sarajaine"The Solar" said:
			
		

> Because it boils down to principal.




If it boils down to principal, then do be careful - as Tom pointed out, your characterization of the drunken yelling yob at the football game is just as bad as the characterization of women not mixing with D&D.  If you're really interested in principals, then you kind of have to do unto others as you want them to do unto you.  If not, you're tossing bricks in the proverbial glass domicile.



> The attitude people have about girls shouldn't play dnd makes people like me not want to really play at all. If they were open minded I would love too.




It is perhaps understandable that their minds aren't very open.  Historically, women gamers have been rare.  I think the WotC market research in 1999 saw barely a fifth of all gamers were women.  For many years prior to that, it's expected that the proportion of women in the hobby was even smaller.  That means that many (probably even most) groups didn't have a single woman in it.  What you're asking them to do is be open to a possibility that may run against many years of personal experience as well as "common wisdom".

Not that "common wisdom" is frequently correct, but folks get their minds set.


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## dungeon blaster (Apr 14, 2005)

You posted on a messageboard, be prepared for opinions that may offend you.  The fact is, your looks really have nothing to do with your point, and I still believe my point is valid.  I hope that the comments you took offense to did not obscure my main points, which had nothing to do with bragging or fishing for attention.

I'm not trying to make an enemy.  Personally, I hope you find an awesome gaming group, as I believe EVERYONE has the right to game!


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## John Morrow (Apr 14, 2005)

Sarajaine"The Solar" said:
			
		

> THANK U! Its fair to say that was exactly my point. I don't look like a gamer chick and hate steriotype as much as the next person.




Out of curiosity, what do you think a "gamer chick" look like?  The women I've role-played with have been too diverse to stereotype.  The men, on the other hand...


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## Sarajaine"The Solar" (Apr 14, 2005)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> Let him have his guy time. But since you think you'd LOVE the game, too, you don't need to compromise your own interest just because in his mind it's tied to his male-bonding moments.



 Never on this thread have  I suggested I wanted to play with his group. If I ever wanted to start a game it would be with a different group. He has played with the same group of people for years and he is a hell of a lot more advanced when it comes to the in's and out's of the game than I ever could be. I m a very independent person and always have been. Guys should have there own time and I wouldnt have it any other way. This thread seems to have strayed from the initial point I'm trying to address.
I'm really into dnd,i don't wish to impose on my partners game and I want the small majority of people in this world who play dnd and don't think that girls should play to grow up. Nothing more or less.


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## Tom Cashel (Apr 14, 2005)

Sarajaine"The Solar" said:
			
		

> I don't look like a gamer chick and hate steriotype as much as the next person.




I'm sensing a little hypocrisy here. You can apparently "spot" a gamer chick, but you hate stereotypes.

I give up.


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## dungeon blaster (Apr 14, 2005)

Vraille Darkfang said:
			
		

> Actually, she isn't mentioning her looks, but her appearence. Not so much, look at how HOT I am, but I don't LOOK like the idea of a gamer chick.
> 
> This could just mean she wears skirts, dresses, has a hello kitty purse, etc...



I considered that, and I feel that may have been "part" of her argument, but honestly I think she was bragging.  Of course, only she knows for sure, right?  I could very well have been completely off in my observation, but it doesn't mean I won't make that observation if I think I am correct.  For example, when she mentions she looks like a cheerleader-type...if she had said that she doesn't look like the stereotypical gamer girl I might not have thought of it as bragging.  And yes, there is a point to be made about attractive girls and gaming - that the more attractive a girl is, the less people will associate her with gaming.  I understand that.


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## I'm A Banana (Apr 14, 2005)

> I don't look like a gamer chick and hate steriotype as much as the next person. I just feel that you would'nt get the "she likes RPG's vibe from me" that was it!




.....I'VE GOT IT! Someone call Prada, quick, there's an entire market of fashionable young ladies out there looking for designer dice bags!   


Back to what I think was your actual point (whaddaya want, I'm scatterbrained   ) I've never been surprised, but I've surprised others. There's a little spark of glee that goes off in my head when one of the girls I've gamed with gets hit on by some typically rich suburban don juan and when asked to go out Saturday, she confesses that she can't because she's playing D&D. The guy laughs. "D&D? I used to beat up the kids who play that!"

The girl laughs, too. "Well I don't date people who used to beat up my friends. Ever. Bye bye now!"

Aaaah, there is this swelling of pride me me ol' soul. Some guy got rejected, all for the sake of plastic, pewter, and paper. 

I guess since I've never really gamed much with the stereotypes. I'm a total rockstar, my first DM was one of the rich suburban don juans, and one of the players was the star running back for my HS football team. People who can't look past the stereotype piss me the frick off.


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## Rel (Apr 14, 2005)

Sarajaine, I don't think that you are going to encounter a single person on this board who says, "Gaming is a hobby for men and women should not be allowed to participate."  I'm not saying that there aren't some people out there who hold that opinion.  But railing against it here is somewhere between "preaching to the choir" and "attacking a strawman".

In general you seem likable and articulate and I'm sure you'll be a welcome addition to the community.  But where you are coming off in a somewhat poor light (to me anyway) is where you say, "I don't really wish to participate I just would appreciate the exceptance that I take an interest in their hobby and to be to be taken seriously for it."  It smacks just a bit of the argument that you don't really *want* to be in the club but you demand the *right* to be in the club.

Perhaps if you're meeting some resistance then it is because these guys think that your indignation stems more from a sense of entitlement than a true interest in the hobby.

In any event, there is many a poster here at ENWorld who has lamented that his spouse or girlfriend has no interest in gaming or is outright hostile to it.  Good on you for your attitude towards gaming.


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## Tom Cashel (Apr 14, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> Sarajaine, I don't think that you are going to encounter a single person on this board who says, "Gaming is a hobby for men and women should not be allowed to participate."  I'm not saying that there aren't some people out there who hold that opinion.  But railing against it here is somewhere between "preaching to the choir" and "attacking a strawman".




Indeed.

People who don't think girls should play D&D *at all* are stating a belief. (Did anyone actually say that in this thread?)

People who don't think girls should play *in their specific D&D group* are stating an opinion, probably based on prior experience.

The former is, in my opinion, quite wrong. The latter is an opinion, and as such, isn't wrong or right -- it's personal preference.


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## twofalls (Apr 14, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> Sarajaine, I don't think that you are going to encounter a single person on this board who says, "Gaming is a hobby for men and women should not be allowed to participate."  I'm not saying that there aren't some people out there who hold that opinion.  But railing against it here is somewhere between "preaching to the choir" and "attacking a strawman".




Gaming is NOT for wives who fall asleep during the climactic moment of the evening...!

"sniffle"

I'm taking my wounded pride to a different thread for a few moments...


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## dungeon blaster (Apr 14, 2005)

Will Nelson said:
			
		

> Gaming, in and of itself, is not a turn-off. You're using it as an excuse for yourself, no offense.



I disagree.  I know a lot of girls who find gaming a turn-off, and that has absolutely NOTHING to do with me or anyone else.  Society has programmed them to think that way.  I'm not going to try defending myself except to say that you don't know me.



> If a girl knows you game, and you act like it's a big deal, something that will impact your sexual credibility, then it will. Not because of the gaming, but because you're acting like a twit.




I somewhat agree with you here.  Yes, if you make it a problem, it becomes a problem.  But sometimes even if you don't make it a problem, it's still a problem.



> If a girl finds out you game, and you non-chalantly pass it off as something you enjoy, you'll have more sexual credibility for being comfortable with who you are. That's an incredible turn on for girls, yet so few guys pull it off.




Most everyone agrees that confidence is sexy.  But that only works if the girl can get over the stereotypes of D&D.



> The same applies with hanging out with the guys, but in a much less sexual way. If you do something that's not manly, and then you clam up when someone brings it up, you're gonna get ripped on. But if you do that same thing and calmly pass it off as just being another part of your personality, then that's that. I, for example, could have a good conversation about clothing or interior decorating. Great skills when conversing with women, not so great with the guys. I don't go around initiating those conversations with guys, but if someone tries to bust on me for something like that, it doesn't bother me. Be a bit self-deprecating, laugh along, and then move on.




Is this an argument or advice?



> Some people just need to learn how to be more comfortable with who they are, whoever that might be.




I'd agree with that.


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## S'mon (Apr 14, 2005)

fusangite said:
			
		

> All women who have joined gaming groups in which I have been a member have been treated in one of two ways: (a) indistinguishably from the guys or (b) with a kind of sick cloying deference.




Yeah, that's what I do.  I try to do (a), but occasionally a bit of (b) creeps in.  But usually (a).


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## Sarajaine"The Solar" (Apr 14, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> "I don't really wish to participate I just would appreciate the exceptance that I take an interest in their hobby and to be to be taken seriously for it." It smacks just a bit of the argument that you don't really *want* to be in the club but you demand the *right* to be in the club. Good on you for your attitude towards gaming.




This is the one of a few posts who actually gets what I'm talking about. Everyone on this thread feels that girls have a right to play and that is totally great however where I'm from I get more resistance to it thats all. I don't feel sorry for myself and demand respect form all corners of the earth so Im deciding to rant and rave about it. If people where I come from could except girls playing like you guys then great but they don't really. I think dnd is really awesome and given the option I would play but what prevents me from it is the attitude towards me playing that is the problem.I don't demand the right to play it just would be nice.


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## I'm A Banana (Apr 14, 2005)

> I'm really into dnd,i don't wish to impose on my partners game and I want the small majority of people in this world who play dnd and don't think that girls should play to grow up. Nothing more or less.




Fair enough, but that's like expecting the small majority of any group to stop thinking that an outsider can't do what they do.

It's like asking those who think that men shouldn't wear dresses should grow up, or those who say white boys can't dance or play Basketball. 

Meaning, you're probably not going to change the world through the message board.   Best way to make those people grow up is to have more people like you in the world. Spread the message, SJ.


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## the Jester (Apr 14, 2005)

Sarajaine, I'm just the opposite of the jerks you've had the misfortune to deal with: I have actively recruited a good dozen women and/or girls into the hobbey over the years.

If you're ever in my area (Davis, CA), drop a line and we'll talk.


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## S'mon (Apr 14, 2005)

Sarajaine"The Solar" said:
			
		

> I'm really into dnd,i don't wish to impose on my partners game and I want the small majority of people in this world who play dnd and don't think that girls should play to grow up. Nothing more or less.




Fair enough.  If you're interested in playing, as well as looking for an advert seeking players you might consider recruiting & GMing a group yourself, aimed at novice players.  That way you can set the tone of the game the way you want it.  Randomlings http://www.randomlingshouse.com/ is a good place to go for advice re this kind of thing.  No reason why group should be all-female, a good mix is best (Randomling has some horror stories about her as a new GM GMing for a group of nasty male adolescents).


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## S'mon (Apr 14, 2005)

dungeon blaster said:
			
		

> .  And yes, there is a point to be made about attractive girls and gaming - that the more attractive a girl is, the less people will associate her with gaming.




Which is kinda silly if true - judging by my experience of 2 years of Gencon UK gamer girls run the gamut of looks just like gamer guys do, with no apparent stereotype.  Except an awful lot of people wore black t-shirts.  

Edit: Actually AIR going by Gencon UK the stereotypical male gamer would be mid-20s, clean-cut, slim, a little pale, with short neat brown hair and a clean black t-shirt, slightly above average looks-wise.


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## Vraille Darkfang (Apr 14, 2005)

Sarajaine"The Solar" said:
			
		

> THANK U! Its fair to say that was exactly my point. I don't look like a gamer chick and hate steriotype as much as the next person. I just feel that you would'nt get the "she likes RPG's vibe from me" that was it!




Appearently with all the confusion, You'll just have to find a chain mail bikini & post a picture of yourself so we can put this whole Physical Appearence/Style debate to rest  

I am just kidding.  But the "ideal" that many people think of when one says "Gamer Chick" is a overwieght, no make-up, always wears shirt & jeans, male version of dorkness.  Note: there is a whole subset of White Wolf "Goth Chicks" sterotype.  I've met some.  They made me fear for my life.  (Most White Wolf Player's don't fit the "Goth" Stereotype, but I've met enough to know how the idea got started).

Fortuantly, times are changing.  With Morgan Webb, from X-play, Ashely Judd and other "Girly-Girls", to quote a California Gov, showing their interest in sports, video games, and yes, even D&D, the ideas of "girls only do or enjoy this" is breaking down from a societal perspective.

Even better the D&D player sterotype as "High Lords OF GEEKDOM" (which was a MAJOR improvement from "High Lord of SATAN who will scrifice your baby kitten to gain a level") is dieing out, with D&D being just another thing some people do.

Much nicer if you ask me,

But, if you WANT to post that chain-mail bikini pic, I might do the same (same result as Cause Fear 15' radius in my case though)


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## jmucchiello (Apr 14, 2005)

Scratched_back said:
			
		

> She does indeed listen to me talk for hours on the phone about gaming - to other people! I call the other guys in the group a lot mid-week to discuss tactics etc, at which point she can hear everything I say.



Perhaps you should talk with her about it. Sounds like she'd like that.


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## IcyCool (Apr 14, 2005)

dungeon blaster said:
			
		

> But sometimes even if you don't make it a problem, it's still a problem.




I have to ask, why is it a problem?


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## dungeon blaster (Apr 14, 2005)

I haven't ever been to a con so I'll have to take your word for it, but of all the female gamers I know, none of them are ugly.

Icy Cool: What I am saying is that even if don't act ashamed of gaming when around the girls, the girls might still have a problem with gaming.  Am I condoning this behavior?  No.  I am merely being realistic about the perceptions of gaming and its affect on one's desirability.


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## Rel (Apr 14, 2005)

Sarajaine"The Solar" said:
			
		

> I think dnd is really awesome and given the option I would play but what prevents me from it is the attitude towards me playing that is the problem.I don't demand the right to play it just would be nice.




As much as we ENWorlders would like to think that we are the "super-duper, extra special, creme de la creme" of gaming (and I assure you, we are ), I'm not convinced that we are so totally superior to the general gaming population in your area that their notions about female gamers are 180 degrees from ours.

I think that if you were to put out some feelers for other gaming groups in your area, you might be surprised to find that they were more accepting than you seem to claim.  I'll just bet that having a female player who is well read and savvy about the rules would be a welcome addition to most groups in your area (those that are seeking players anyway).

But if you'd rather not then I must admit that it would be a lot easier to go on feeling affronted and agrieved that the man is keeping you down.


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## Will Nelson (Apr 14, 2005)

dungeon blaster said:
			
		

> I disagree. I know a lot of girls who find gaming a turn-off, and that has absolutely NOTHING to do with me or anyone else. Society has programmed them to think that way. I'm not going to try defending myself except to say that you don't know me.



I very much disagree. Gaming is not a turn-off. What might be a turn-off is the average gamer, and when you mention you game, you might evoke the standard stereotypes of gamers, and that might be a turn-off. That is, of course, if you do absolutely nothing to differentiate yourself from the standard stereotypes.

If you're an obsessive gamer who opts to spend his time reading through books in the basement of your parent's house in lieu of showering, then yeah, that's a turn-off. But not because of the gaming, because of who you are.

If you're a gamer that's funny, reasonably intelligent, confident, and cautiously nice, being a gamer won't ever get in your way.


----------



## Sarajaine"The Solar" (Apr 14, 2005)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> Fair enough, but that's like expecting the small majority of any group to stop thinking that an outsider can't do what they do.
> 
> It's like asking those who think that men shouldn't wear dresses should grow up, or those who say white boys can't dance or play Basketball.
> 
> Meaning, you're probably not going to change the world through the message board.  Best way to make those people grow up is to have more people like you in the world. Spread the message, SJ.



 What can I say Im a stubborn dreamer


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## reveal (Apr 14, 2005)

1) My wife is part of our gaming group.

2) I introduced her to gaming.

3) She, too, thinks geeks are hot. 

Moral: It's not everyone. It's usually males who are insecure about talking to females or interacting with them in any way who seem to act this way. There are also males who still believe that the female is the "lesser" gender.

As the song goes, the female of the species is more deadlier than the male.


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## Desdichado (Apr 14, 2005)

twofalls said:
			
		

> Gaming is NOT for wives who fall asleep during the climactic moment of the evening...!



I can honestly say that nothing like this has ever happened to *my* wife.    

Who doesn't game, and after a brief try, decided she has no real interest in doing so either.


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## julius27 (Apr 14, 2005)

Most girls that game (in my experience) are overweight, have acne, wear glasses, are tomboys, etc. Most "attractive girls" who game (again, in my experience and referring to the skirt wearing, clear complexioned, middle to light-weight ladies) do it to flaunt, be with a bunch of guys that don't talk to "girls like her" much, or trying out her boyfriend's hobby. Most guys that game are insecure in some part of their mundane life and use roleplaying as a way to exercise control over the world even though that world is fictional. Many times, if an attractive girl is present, the fact awakens that insecurity and has a negative affect on a guy's playing. One girl I know who plays WH40k is a little overweight and wears glasses, so although she's a very attractive girl, she gives off that vibe you're talking about. My stepdaughter is of the second category and has only tried gaming to fit in with her husband's friends. She won't have her character act unless she is directly asked about it and therefore finds it a boring hobby. What I would like to know more about is why do girls game? I know that sometimes, it's the same reason I gave for most guys gaming, but there seems to me that female gamers are more complex than that. Well, females in general, for that matter. Maybe I could help my stepdaughter be more involved in her husband's life outside of family funtions.


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## S'mon (Apr 14, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> But where you are coming off in a somewhat poor light (to me anyway) is where you say, "I don't really wish to participate I just would appreciate the exceptance that I take an interest in their hobby and to be to be taken seriously for it."  It smacks just a bit of the argument that you don't really *want* to be in the club but you demand the *right* to be in the club.




I think this is unfair.  My wife likes D&D, she plays Neverwinter Nights avidly and whenever my brother in law (a talented highschool basketball player jock type) is around she and he get me to GM a D&D game for them, but she has no interest in playing in my regular Sunday afternoon D&D game - she doesn't want the regular commitment or having to fight for attention at a packed table of veterans.  I don't see anything wrong with saying "I like D&D but I don't want to play in my boyfriend's campaign, I don't think it would suit me".


----------



## Sarajaine"The Solar" (Apr 14, 2005)

Will Nelson said:
			
		

> I very much disagree. Gaming is not a turn-off. What might be a turn-off is the average gamer, and when you mention you game, you might evoke the standard stereotypes of gamers, and that might be a turn-off. That is, of course, if you do absolutely nothing to differentiate yourself from the standard stereotypes.
> 
> If you're an obsessive gamer who opts to spend his time reading through books in the basement of your parent's house in lieu of showering, then yeah, that's a turn-off. But not because of the gaming, because of who you are.
> 
> If you're a gamer that's funny, reasonably intelligent, confident, and cautiously nice, being a gamer won't ever get in your way.



 Gaming is a turn-on, I think  my bf isso sexy when he talks about dnd and I admire his passion for the game.


----------



## Sarajaine"The Solar" (Apr 14, 2005)

Vraille Darkfang said:
			
		

> Appearently with all the confusion, You'll just have to find a chain mail bikini & post a picture of yourself so we can put this whole Physical Appearence/Style debate to rest
> 
> I am just kidding. But the "ideal" that many people think of when one says "Gamer Chick" is a overwieght, no make-up, always wears shirt & jeans, male version of dorkness. Note: there is a whole subset of White Wolf "Goth Chicks" sterotype. I've met some. They made me fear for my life. (Most White Wolf Player's don't fit the "Goth" Stereotype, but I've met enough to know how the idea got started).
> 
> ...



 Here is me in a bikini  but unfortunately not chain mail. It doesn't matter what you look like and I don't think Im attractive or ugly, I don't think what I look like has any relavance to the game.
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v730/sarajaine/sarajaine.jpg" alt="Image hosted by Photobucket.com">


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## S'mon (Apr 14, 2005)

Re girls finding D&D a turn-off - sure, back when I was 15-18 this seemed a very common attitude among 15-18 year-olds, anyway.  I think this lessens as people get older.  Or maybe the girls just get more desperate.


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## dungeon blaster (Apr 14, 2005)

Will Nelson said:
			
		

> I very much disagree. Gaming is not a turn-off. What might be a turn-off is the average gamer, and when you mention you game, you might evoke the standard stereotypes of gamers, and that might be a turn-off. That is, of course, if you do absolutely nothing to differentiate yourself from the standard stereotypes.
> 
> If you're an obsessive gamer who opts to spend his time reading through books in the basement of your parent's house in lieu of showering, then yeah, that's a turn-off. But not because of the gaming, because of who you are.
> 
> If you're a gamer that's funny, reasonably intelligent, confident, and cautiously nice, being a gamer won't ever get in your way.




Haha, well maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree!  Or maybe you hang out with less superficial, shallow girls than I do?  I guess the only way to really answer this would be to ask women how they feel.  Of course, this board isn't exactly the place to do it.


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## fusangite (Apr 14, 2005)

S'mon said:
			
		

> Re girls finding D&D a turn-off - sure, back when I was 15-18 this seemed a very common attitude among 15-18 year-olds, anyway.  I think this lessens as people get older.  Or maybe the girls just get more desperate.



Escalating desperation on the part of others... this is the hope that keeps me getting out of bed every morning.


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## S'mon (Apr 14, 2005)

Sarajaine"The Solar" said:
			
		

> Here is me in a bikini  but unfortunately not chain mail. It doesn't matter what you look like and I don't think Im attractive or ugly, I don't think what I look like has any relavance to the game.
> <img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v730/sarajaine/sarajaine.jpg" alt="Image hosted by Photobucket.com">




   

Hi Sarajaine - I don't think how you look generally has any relevance to the game, although occasionally a GM can be distracted by an attractive player.  But there is a potential issue where you're the gf of the GM since the other players may suspect bias.  Personally I was a bit uncomfortable one time when a female player attended my game in a short skirt, I'd prefer my players to dress casual, jeans & t-shirts/sweaters type thing, when at the game.


----------



## S'mon (Apr 14, 2005)

fusangite said:
			
		

> Escalating desperation on the part of others... this is the hope that keeps me getting out of bed every morning.




Judging by Sex & the City the secret is to move to New York and get a job tending bar.  Or any job, really.


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## Will Nelson (Apr 14, 2005)

Sarajaine, if that whole boyfriend thing doesn't work out, let me know, okay?  

If your boyfriend reads this, I was just kidding.

If he doesn't read this, however, I am very, very serious.


----------



## S'mon (Apr 14, 2005)

John Morrow said:
			
		

> Second, I've noticed that the reason why some (not all -- *some*) women are ignored is that, by male standards, they don't speak up and demand to be heard.  During some of our games years ago, we'd notice that a friend's wife looked frustrated because she couldn't get a word.  She was waiting for a pause in the conversation and there simply wasn't one, so she said nothing.  We'd let her speak when we noticed but we wouldn't always notice.  We finally told her, "Speak up and interrupt us if you want to say somethign."  That's what all of the guys do to each other and some of the women we know do the same thing.  But some women (and some men, I suspect) think that it's rude to interrupt so they are never given a chance to say anything.  If the social rules of a group require you to speak up to be heard, then speak up and interrupt just like the guys do and don't worry about being rude.




This can definitely be a problem, especially in larger groups.  Men seem to have less trouble talking loudly, interrupting each other & demanding the GM's attention.  In a large group it can be easy for the GM to overlook the quieter players.  Since they're often the _best_ players, this can be a problem.


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## BigFreekinGoblinoid (Apr 14, 2005)

Sarajaine"The Solar" said:
			
		

> Here is me in a bikini  ...




Uh Oh.  Now you have gone and done it. I predict at least four MORE proposals of marriage posted in this thread, despite the fact that you have already told us you are 5 months pregnant. 

Beware the coming geek frenzy...


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## I'm A Banana (Apr 14, 2005)

> What can I say Im a stubborn dreamer




You too, eh?   



> Gaming is a turn-on, I think my bf isso sexy when he talks about dnd and I admire his passion for the game.




The majority of typical girls, as far as I can tell, think that way about music or cars or sports or whatever. You think it about gaming. That's neat. You have found a vast untapped market of hotness. You're at the cutting edge of the rising NerdLust wave!   

I'm glad you're pumpin' out a kid. In, like, 16 years maybe she'll even have kept the lessons of gaming hotness and give all those shy nerds in her class the chance that the other beautiful women never would because it's not cool to be into.   

Girls who think gaming is sexy...never will cease to amaze, delight, and interest me. One of 'em's the reason I'M a stubborn dreamer myself.

Yay for the existence of folks like yourself.


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## S'mon (Apr 14, 2005)

Goblyns Hoard said:
			
		

> 2) Stick up a post over on Randomlings House.  I only played a couple of games with Randomling before I moved away from London but I really got on with her.  There had been another girl in the group (Stalking Blue) who had felt a similar 'male oppressiveness' in gaming and might be able to give you better pointers than those of us suffering from testosterone poisoning.  I don't want to give you the impression that their group was a bunch of ignorant jocks - they were all really great in the brief time I gamed with them - but Stalking Blue must have seen another side of things and might be able to offer up some advice.




Cheers mate.     

I _try_ not to oppress the poor things, really I do...    

Edit:  In retrospect I think the main reason Stalkingblue left my group was she didn't get on well with my wife, which created tension.


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## dungeon blaster (Apr 14, 2005)

S'mon said:
			
		

> This can definitely be a problem, especially in larger groups. Men seem to have less trouble talking loudly, interrupting each other & demanding the GM's attention. In a large group it can be easy for the GM to overlook the quieter players. Since they're often the _best_ players, this can be a problem.




In other words, men are more crude?

Yeah, I might go with that.  However, one thing I've noticed is that girl gamers are more violent (in game).  Example: the druidess who casts cause serious wounds on a poor 0th level farmer.  Keep in mind this is just my experience, I'm not trying to stereotype anyone.


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## Desdichado (Apr 14, 2005)

S'mon said:
			
		

> Personally I was a bit uncomfortable one time when a female player attended my game in a short skirt, I'd prefer my players to dress casual, jeans & t-shirts/sweaters type thing, when at the game.



I prefer coed naked gaming myself.  Damn the torpedoes!  And distractions too, for that matter!

Now, if only I can pop over to Vancouver for barsoomcore's Air Canada stewardess game and get them to come around to that point of view...


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## John Morrow (Apr 14, 2005)

BigFreekinGoblinoid said:
			
		

> Uh Oh.  Now you have gone and done it. I predict at least four MORE proposals of marriage posted in this thread, despite the fact that you have already told us you are 5 months pregnant.




The feedback to the fake ad in Knights of the Dinner Table for hot Eastern European women looking for lonely American gamer guys to marry was pretty funny.  I think they reprinted it in their 100th issue.


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## Sarajaine"The Solar" (Apr 14, 2005)

S'mon said:
			
		

> Hi Sarajaine - I don't think how you look generally has any relevance to the game, although occasionally a GM can be distracted by an attractive player. But there is a potential issue where you're the gf of the GM since the other players may suspect bias. Personally I was a bit uncomfortable one time when a female player attended my game in a short skirt, I'd prefer my players to dress casual, jeans & t-shirts/sweaters type thing, when at the game.



I'm a tshirt and jeans gal anyway, tho I apreciate yr point completely


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## S'mon (Apr 14, 2005)

dungeon blaster said:
			
		

> In other words, men are more crude?




Mens' behaviour in a group is often more assertive, they are more willing to compete for attention.  Impolite maybe, but not crude.


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## Sarajaine"The Solar" (Apr 14, 2005)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> The majority of typical girls, as far as I can tell, think that way about music or cars or sports or whatever. You think it about gaming. That's neat. You have found a vast untapped market of hotness. You're at the cutting edge of the rising NerdLust wave!
> 
> Yay for the existence of folks like yourself.



I just admire guys who have a passion for something and when they enjoy it they put 100% into i t. My bf comes home after dnd with such a spring in his step and talks for hours about the encounters that night. He likes good music and had a sports car but its the geek in him that gives me butterflies. GOD! I'm cheesy


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## S'mon (Apr 14, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> I prefer coed naked gaming myself.  Damn the torpedoes!  And distractions too, for that matter!




Yeah, well, I'm married.  And I think my GMing skills would suffer.  I pride myself on my GMing, but I'm susceptible to distractions like any other guy.  So trousers & a demure top, please.


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## dungeon blaster (Apr 14, 2005)

I say potato, you say potato...er, well it comes out better when spoken, not written.


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## Mynex (Apr 14, 2005)

MonkeyDragon said:
			
		

> >snip lots of words< some need to remember that we are not exotic, incomprehensible alien creatures.>end snippage of words<




*tongue planted firmly in cheek*

Sez Who?

*evil grin*

Seriously though, I've run groups of all females, I've played groups that were 80% female (and a female GM), I've had girlfriends involved/interested, not involved/interested, I've seen (and coached) an all female group of high schoolers (they started their group because the 'boys' were being 'jerks')...

In the end, like any other hobby, it's an individual choice of interest...

Play it if you want, ply with your man's group, or make your own (of course you simply must "Force" your man to play in your group - for the 'fun revenge' factor alone - play a male character that's in 'love' with his character.. watch him squirm! lol)... Do whatever it takes, but, if you want to game, do it!

And if anyone 'pats you one the head', I agree with the other poster, put em in a headlock and stuff d20's up their nose! 

*grin*


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## I'm A Banana (Apr 14, 2005)

> I just admire guys who have a passion for something and when they enjoy it they put 100% into i t. My bf comes home after dnd with such a spring in his step and talks for hours about the encounters that night. He likes good music and had a sports car but its the geek in him that gives me butterflies. GOD! I'm cheesy




No more so than anyone else who'se been in crazy goofy rommance. 

I think it's a general trait that most guys are pretty obsessively nerdy about something. Part of that hunter instinct where we seek perfection, knowledge, and power that suits us best. You're lucky that you found a guy who expresses that in a unique fashion that's different from the stereotype of what guys are into.

Sort of: I like sports cars, too, but to know how to fix up an old '67 Chevy and spruce it into a smokin' hot rod is something that requires a certain amount of obsessive nerdiness.


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## BigFreekinGoblinoid (Apr 14, 2005)

John Morrow said:
			
		

> The feedback to the fake ad in Knights of the Dinner Table for hot Eastern European women looking for lonely American gamer guys to marry was pretty funny.  I think they reprinted it in their 100th issue.





That WAS a classic! The funny thing was that I glossed right over that "ad" when originally placed, and didn't catch on until the letters started coming in. 

Darn, I missed issue 100, no place I've checked seemed to have it in stock, so I had to special order it, and I'm told the distributor was out too - they are hoping for a restock...


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## Sarajaine"The Solar" (Apr 14, 2005)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> I think it's a general trait that most guys are pretty obsessively nerdy about something. Part of that hunter instinct where we seek perfection, knowledge, and power that suits us best. You're lucky that you found a guy who expresses that in a unique fashion that's different from the stereotype of what guys are into.



He has this cool facade tho where he tries to act like he isn't into as much as I know he is.  Even now I have to remind him that its the geek I love and if dnd is part of his life thats cool. Then he starts talking about it for hours and does'nt stop until he knows he is acting l ike a kid in a sweet shop and then he blushes  he will kill me when he reads this thread hehe


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## I'm A Banana (Apr 14, 2005)

> He has this cool facade tho where he tries to act like he isn't into as much as I know he is. Even now I have to remind him that its the geek I love and if dnd is part of his life thats cool. Then he starts talking about it for hours and does'nt stop until he knows he is acting l ike a kid in a sweet shop and then he blushes  he will kill me when he reads this thread hehe




He'll either kill you, or come out of the gamer closet. Though I wonder if the fact that he's in the closet was part of how he was able to get a "normal" like yourself?  

Naaah, if he kills you, he's gonna kill everyone on this thread who is offering you their heart, too. And that's a lot of effort. I'd be more worried about him exposing YOUR embarassing facts to someone.


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## Nifelhein (Apr 14, 2005)

Sine there are 4 pages of replies i will reply directly to the first post. My girlfriend has surely no interest in gaming, but that doe not make me think she is where she should, i invited a girl I know to play with my group last year, she ended up going out of the group simply because she could not show up on the sessions on time or just ended up showing she was not in for the game.

I don't think sexism has a place in games and one of my friends who gms a game and plays in mine believes we should b making more female references in the game, more queens, more woman as heroes, more woman fighters, ad so on. Look at a MM and you see that all females there are like either half human half beast or just godly beauties that surely are out of a comic book somewhere.

Any girl that wants to play at my table is welcome, what she needs to do is the sme everyone else, respect the master decisions at the moment and maybe discuss it after the game, show up on time and also, have fun.

Everything else is not to be taken into account, you know less, so what, you can learn, you are a woman, so what, I love women, I want drinks, so what, i can get one for you too as will already have gone to the chicken.

If your boyfriends are like that, make your own group, there are just so many people who want to play.


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## Sarajaine"The Solar" (Apr 14, 2005)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> He'll either kill you, or come out of the gamer closet. Though I wonder if the fact that he's in the closet was part of how he was able to get a "normal" like yourself?
> 
> Naaah, if he kills you, he's gonna kill everyone on this thread who is offering you their heart, too. And that's a lot of effort. I'd be more worried about him exposing YOUR embarassing facts to someone.



A normal! Just because you like dnd doesn't make you any less normal than me  The only difference between a gamer and any other person is that they probably have more of a flare when it comes to escapism and a bigger imagination. 

Regarding my secret, I'm not ashamed of my love for geeks I just wish they would stop thinking they can't get a normal attractive girl just because they play dnd..its not like you all have the bubonic plague or anything! You give yourselves a stigma by being so paranoid about it... any girl worth knowing will like you for who you are and except that gaming is a part of that


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## Sarajaine"The Solar" (Apr 14, 2005)

Nifelhein said:
			
		

> Any girl that wants to play at my table is welcome



 Its a shame you live at the other side of the atlantic or else I would join your game!


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## Nifelhein (Apr 14, 2005)

Sure, if you happen to drop by sometime I wil give you some role for a session or two, that can be entertaining too.

As for the geek thing, i am not a geek anymore, neither are any of my friends who play with me, but this is the geek heirloom we bear, DnD is mostly a geek area and we know that, our gfs have a problem with the sessions now and then, so that is why we play mostly on Sunday mornings.

Being a geek or a "cool" gy has nothing to do with what kind of girl you get, at least appearence wise, sure we like gaming, sure we like computers, but hey, we like women all the same, or man for some here.

If getting a "hot chick" is something a DnD player should not be allowed, my friends and I sure have a feat that allows us to do that.


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## Sarajaine"The Solar" (Apr 14, 2005)

Nifelhein said:
			
		

> If getting a "hot chick" is something a DnD player should not be allowed, my friends and I sure have a feat that allows us to do that.



  I agree gaming should have nothing to do with getting a hot gf. I think its the long swords and the armour. Chicks dig a guy in uniform and when they slay dragons for fun....it does things to a woman


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## S'mon (Apr 14, 2005)

Sarajaine, you're in north of England, right?  There's a lot of good University games clubs up there, you look young enough to be a student so I reckon you could sneak into one.  Just a thought.    When I was a student in Sheffield the club there was very good and had lots of female members, including a good proportion of the administration.


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## Nifelhein (Apr 14, 2005)

I am sure some people might have pointed out to you, but you could find a game to play online, a PbP, you sure will have fun, learn a bit more about the game rules 9which ahs nothing to do with learning the game, at least for me).

By the way, what kind of fantasy style do you like the most, I am into the Midnight setting, which is kind of a battle against all odds, the world was taken and you can't do a thing to change it (not really true, but the feel is that), being a hero when no one else can, having what everyone else lost: hope.

There are many other kinds of settigns out there.

Also, when anyone asks me what rpg is I usually reply by asking them two things: have you ever seen the cartoon Dungeons and Dragons? Have you ever play child games where you were a policeman and your friend a thief? well, that is what rpgs are all about:

Being something you are not, doign what you could otherwise never do and telling a story you usually just read in books, except that now you are one of the authors and has no control on how it all comes to be.


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## Sarajaine"The Solar" (Apr 14, 2005)

S'mon said:
			
		

> Sarajaine, you're in north of England, right? There's a lot of good University games clubs up there, you look young enough to be a student so I reckon you could sneak into one. Just a thought.  When I was a student in Sheffield the club there was very good and had lots of female members, including a good proportion of the administration.



 I have finished studying and never really looked at the society boards for potential gamers and clubs. I will have to go to the union and investigate.......


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## Rel (Apr 14, 2005)

*Rel clicks on the "bikini pic link".*

*Rel notes that Sarajaine is hotter than Dragongirl.*

*Rel pops open a beer and sits back waiting for the trainwreck to start.*


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## Belen (Apr 14, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> *Rel clicks on the "bikini pic link".*
> 
> *Rel notes that Sarajaine is hotter than Dragongirl.*
> 
> *Rel pops open a beer and sits back waiting for the trainwreck to start.*




Whatever happened to Dragongirl or Djeta?  They just disappeared.


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## S'mon (Apr 14, 2005)

Sarajaine"The Solar" said:
			
		

> I have finished studying and never really looked at the society boards for potential gamers and clubs. I will have to go to the union and investigate.......




Thought so.    It's definitely worth a try - I'm from Northern Ireland and when I was at Oxford I didn't really fit in well with the gamer group there, but Sheffield seemed much more accessible.  IME you're very unlikely to face any discrimination from being female at a UK University games group, and they're often run by female students.  Even if the atmosphere/style isn't exactly what you're looking for for long-term play, it's a good chance to meet fellow gamers and maybe see about forming a small group - it only takes 1 GM & 2 players to make a workable game in my experience.


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## fusangite (Apr 14, 2005)

Sarajaine,

Evidently Crothian is not doing his job here so it falls to me to congratulate you on, unless I'm very much mistaken, on making more posts on your first day as an ENWorld member than anyone else. In fact, you are presently the only person exceeding the prolific Crothian's 25.13 posts per day stat.


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## John Morrow (Apr 14, 2005)

S'mon said:
			
		

> Mens' behaviour in a group is often more assertive, they are more willing to compete for attention.  Impolite maybe, but not crude.




Men can be pretty impolite, competative, and sometimes downright rude with each other.  In some (note that I said _some_, not all) cases, when guys behave rudely or competatively with women or make fun of them or put them down, it's not that they are being sexist but because they _are_ treating the woman _exactly_ like they'd treat another male friend.


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## Sarajaine"The Solar" (Apr 14, 2005)

Nifelhein said:
			
		

> By the way, what kind of fantasy style do you like the most?



 I prefer high fantasy typical dnd/forgotten realms style with elves,magic etc. Sci-fi is also something that would interest.

Race wise I'm a big fan of Elves as they are extremely graceful and I think have so much to offer.I want to play a half elf/Druid. Druids I feel are sort of a specialty Cleric.They lose the metal armor, wearing hide instead and pick up natural shapeshifting and a few skills. They also have some powerful nature spells and get a familiar which I think add that extra something. My bf has yet to purchase the Masters of the Wild A Guidebook to Barbarians, Druids, and Rangers but I'm looking forward to the read.


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## Belen (Apr 14, 2005)

fusangite said:
			
		

> Sarajaine,
> 
> Evidently Crothian is not doing his job here so it falls to me to congratulate you on, unless I'm very much mistaken, on making more posts on your first day as an ENWorld member than anyone else. In fact, you are presently the only person exceeding the prolific Crothian's 25.13 posts per day stat.




Next thing you know, she will have 30,000 posts and be the undisputed champion of ENWorld!

Still, a very prolific feat for one day on the job.


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## S'mon (Apr 14, 2005)

I was thinking more of the male gamers just talking loudly, competing for attention, and ignoring the female gamer.  I've even seen this w my wife who's pretty assertive (admittedly the guys were _Australians_)  and somewhat even with Randomling, who's a great player but just a bit quieter than the guys.

Edit: in response to John Morrow's post.


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## Sarajaine"The Solar" (Apr 14, 2005)

fusangite said:
			
		

> Sarajaine,
> 
> Evidently Crothian is not doing his job here so it falls to me to congratulate you on, unless I'm very much mistaken, on making more posts on your first day as an ENWorld member than anyone else. In fact, you are presently the only person exceeding the prolific Crothian's 25.13 posts per day stat.



HEHE! I feel all important *giggles and awaits my trophy*


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## Belen (Apr 14, 2005)

Sarajaine"The Solar" said:
			
		

> I prefer high fantasy typical dnd/forgotten realms style with elves,magic etc. Sci-fi is also something that would interest.
> 
> Race wise I'm a big fan of Elves as they are extremely graceful and I think have so much to offer.I want to play a half elf/Druid. Druids I feel are sort of a specialty Cleric.They lose the metal armor, wearing hide instead and pick up natural shapeshifting and a few skills. They also have some powerful nature spells and get a familiar which I think add that extra something. My bf has yet to purchase the Masters of the Wild A Guidebook to Barbarians, Druids, and Rangers but I'm looking forward to the read.




Masters of the Wild is a bit outdated, although a good book.  You may want to look at Complete Divine or Complete Adventurer and races of the wild has some great stuff on elves.


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## Sarajaine"The Solar" (Apr 14, 2005)

BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> Whatever happened to Dragongirl or Djeta? They just disappeared.



ooh  who is Dragongirl? Shee has a cooler name than me anyway


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## Belen (Apr 14, 2005)

S'mon said:
			
		

> I was thinking more of the male gamers just talking loudly, competing for attention, and ignoring the female gamer.  I've even seen this w my wife who's pretty assertive (admittedly the guys were _Australians_)  and somewhat even with Randomling, who's a great player but just a bit quieter than the guys.
> 
> Edit: in response to John Morrow's post.




With my old group, my wife and the older girl in our group barely got a word spoken.  Heck, even when she was the GM she had trouble being heard.  The other guys loved to argue rules and just would not listen to her thoughts or opinions.

Luckily, the new group is night and day and the women tend to be the more outspoken of the group.  It is refreshing.


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## Nifelhein (Apr 14, 2005)

See, so you have a good character for any PbP around here, in Midnight druids are PrC, you could only get them after a good time of game, and that makes it all the more special.

I have the book and it just does not make a good job, it is mostly rules, makes me feel cheated, sure rules are nice, but we have plenty of them. I think you are more than qualified to start playing a game and if you happen to want to learn the rules, get yourself over the SRD over here and learn it.

I am sure in sometime we will see your signature carrying a game link.


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## Sarajaine"The Solar" (Apr 14, 2005)

BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> Masters of the Wild is a bit outdated, although a good book. You may want to look at Complete Divine or Complete Adventurer and races of the wild has some great stuff on elves.



 I have looked in Divine and Adventurer as I love to read up on the prestige classes. Im CG alignment and being a druid I cannot find many classes that offer a road to go down. Blighters are the only predominant progression for druids but they are evil!


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## Belen (Apr 14, 2005)

Sarajaine"The Solar" said:
			
		

> ooh  who is Dragongirl? Shee has a cooler name than me anyway




She used to be a fairly prolific poster here, but disappeared about 2 years ago, although maybe she took a new name.


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## Belen (Apr 14, 2005)

Sarajaine"The Solar" said:
			
		

> I have looked in Divine and Adventurer as I love to read up on the prestige classes. I m CG alignment and being a druid I cannot find many classes that offer a road to go down. Blighters are the only main druid class but they are evil!




Druids are the most powerful of all the D&D classes, so I do not think a lot of prestige classes get made for them and most tend to make them weaker.


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## Sarajaine"The Solar" (Apr 14, 2005)

BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> Druids are the most powerful of all the D&D classes, so I do not think a lot of prestige classes get made for them and most tend to make them weaker.



Ahh that would make sense thanks


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## Nifelhein (Apr 14, 2005)

I think I will carry this female gaming discussion into the AtS.org Midnight boards too, let me see what people there think.

I haven't been much aroudn to, but didn't Djeta had a bf or husband around here too? Isn't Buttercup a girl too?


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## John Morrow (Apr 14, 2005)

S'mon said:
			
		

> I was thinking more of the male gamers just talking loudly, competing for attention, and ignoring the female gamer.




Sure, but part of my point is that I think the reason that some men wind up ignoring the quiet female gamer is the same reason why they wind up ignoring the quiet male gamer.  They expect "one of the guys" to just speak up and assert themselves and not have to be asked what they want to say or do.  I was trying to contrast that with the deference that some other people here were talking about.  Some women get used to deference from men and then get blindsided by being treated like one of the guys, either by being ignored or being talked to rudely.


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## Sarajaine"The Solar" (Apr 14, 2005)

John Morrow said:
			
		

> Sure, but part of my point is that I think the reason that some men wind up ignoring the quiet female gamer is the same reason why they wind up ignoring the quiet male gamer. They expect "one of the guys" to just speak up and assert themselves and not have to be asked what they want to say or do. I was trying to contrast that with the deference that some other people here were talking about. Some women get used to deference from men and then get blindsided by being treated like one of the guys, either by being ignored or being talked to rudely.



 I have no problem speaking out as I am quiet strong minded and I value my own opnion although I don't impose it. I think in my experience if fellow male gamers tend to dismiss your opinions because your a girl even the most outspoken woman in the world would tend to keep quiet.  I'm still hazy on all the rules so I feel my opinion may be held back until I was certain what I was contributing had  some clout behind it.


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## Rystil Arden (Apr 14, 2005)

I frankly can't believe that male gamers would be so rude and unwelcoming, since all the male gamers I know would be ecstatic to have more females join the hobby.

As for the posts, you're even ahead of my 31ish PPD.  Keep it up and you'll be the new Crothian soon enough!


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## Nifelhein (Apr 14, 2005)

I don't think most women are used to deference, but I do think they are used to respect and attention when they speak, that is not something unusual at my table and if it happens that people talk while one speaks, I call their attention and they know they made a bad move.

Since I gave some english classes last year, not much of a difference from a class and a D&D group, you need to show them what they are there for.


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## James Heard (Apr 14, 2005)

The people I play with patronize and pat EVERYONE on the head who has never played an RPG regardless of their gender-specific qualities. I have to watch myself for doing it to my daughter who's now playing in a Silver Age Sentinals game now. I had to resist it with my younger brother when he was in high school. I recklessly embraced it when I ran a game for my non-gaming bar crew once. When the strippers at the club I worked at showed up for a D&D game once I had to keep everyone FROM doing it (because otherwise the girls would just eat them all alive.)

Anyways, I've even ran for and played in games ran by my friend's mothers when I was a LOT younger. I got patted on the head and patronized, even though I'd been around the hobby for a while then - I was just younger than everyone else. I don't think it's a sexist notion, but a newbie thing. The only thing that bothers me about women gamers is when they radically change the tone or group dynamic of my game, and that's a problem for any player that joins the group - it just has specific possibilities that don't always exist in male groups (though I've played in groups where I was the only heterosexual male playing too - so I realize that that too is a sexuality thing, and not a gender issue.)


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## Sarajaine"The Solar" (Apr 14, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> I frankly can't believe that male gamers would be so rude and unwelcoming, since all the male gamers I know would be ecstatic to have more females join the hobby.



 In my situation, I'm a girl who didn't really hang around with the gamers and even though I always had an active interest in fantasy and RPG's I did'nt explore it or feel the need to till I met my partner. I think that is because I have just recently expressed my keen interest in dnd and all my knoweledge of the game is through reading not actually gaming for years like them. Everyone has to start somewhere tho right?


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## Rystil Arden (Apr 14, 2005)

Sarajaine"The Solar" said:
			
		

> In my situation, I'm a girl who didn't really hang around with the gamers and even though I always had an active interest in fantasy and RPG's I did'nt explore it or feel the need to till I met my partner. I think that is because I have just recently expressed my keen interest in dnd and all my knoweledge of the game is through reading not actually gaming for years like them. Everyone has to start somewhere tho right?



 Sure!  And reading the rulebooks is the best way to do it.  Frankly, I'm bad because I'm lenient with new players and don't force them to read the rulebooks, as I tend to be able to teach them to play as they go along, but I think they miss out on a lot of important points along the way.  You probably know more about the rules without playing some of the younger players that I have DMed for years.


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## Mystery Man (Apr 14, 2005)

James Heard said:
			
		

> When the strippers at the club I worked at showed up for a D&D game once...




*perks up*

Intrigued. Titillated even.


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## Vraille Darkfang (Apr 14, 2005)

Sarajaine"The Solar" said:
			
		

> I have looked in Divine and Adventurer as I love to read up on the prestige classes. Im CG alignment and being a druid I cannot find many classes that offer a road to go down. Blighters are the only predominant progression for druids but they are evil!




Not to rain on your parade, but....

Druids have to have a Nuetral Component to their Alignment.  NG, CN, NG, N, NE. Although a lot of DM's houserule (including me) various druid sects of other alignments.  If you really like Prestige Classes, Pick up Dragon Magazine (I'm not sure how much it costs in England though).  

Half-elf is a good race choice, although many (including me) feel that they are a bit under powered compared to other races.  However, the race leads to really great roleplaying situations, back stories and plot hooks.

If you like FR & Elves, try to find the 2nd editon D&D supplements Cormanthor: Empire of Elves, Evermeet: Island of Elves, and the Myth Drannor Box Set.

WotC also just re-released the Orginal Moonshaes Trilogy (the sequel Druidhome Trilogy should be coming out soon).  Both series kicked off the Forgotten Realms & had a big Celtic/British Druid emphasis.

Here's to the start of a beautiful realtionship,
You & D&D that is,


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## Sarajaine"The Solar" (Apr 14, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> Sure! And reading the rulebooks is the best way to do it. Frankly, I'm bad because I'm lenient with new players and don't force them to read the rulebooks, as I tend to be able to teach them to play as they go along, but I think they miss out on a lot of important points along the way. You probably know more about the rules without playing some of the younger players that I have DMed for years.



How long do you think  it takes for new players to get a grasp on the game? Obviously it depends on the individual  but knowing that I catch on quickly I was wondering how long it would take?


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## Sarajaine"The Solar" (Apr 14, 2005)

Vraille Darkfang said:
			
		

> Not to rain on your parade, but....
> 
> Druids have to have a Nuetral Component to their Alignment. NG, CN, NG, N, NE. Although a lot of DM's houserule (including me) various druid sects of other alignments. If you really like Prestige Classes, Pick up Dragon Magazine (I'm not sure how much it costs in England though).
> 
> ...



 Thanks for the info. I think CG was an alignment that most represented my own character but knowing this I will choose my alignment more carefully. Half elf is still a race I would like to persue  I'm reading Elaine Cunningham's Forrgotten Realms  Evermeet Island of Elves which is a good read so far


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## Nifelhein (Apr 14, 2005)

I think that after a month playing once a week you could know enough of the rules to play it without much thought, in general I don't m,ind players knowing the rules, I want them to try the stuff they think is funny, I am a Dm fort hat reason, I will tell them how the rules fit that and see if he wants to go with it.

I have posted a thread on this for my Midnight community and while I can understand if you do not show up I would love to see you drop by.

Do You Accept Woman? A Midnight debate on female gaming with a rather attention calling name.


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## dungeon blaster (Apr 14, 2005)

Sarajaine"The Solar" said:
			
		

> A normal! Just because you like dnd doesn't make you any less normal than me  The only difference between a gamer and any other person is that they probably have more of a flare when it comes to escapism and a bigger imagination.
> 
> Regarding my secret, I'm not ashamed of my love for geeks I just wish they would stop thinking they can't get a normal attractive girl just because they play dnd..its not like you all have the bubonic plague or anything! You give yourselves a stigma by being so paranoid about it... any girl worth knowing will like you for who you are and except that gaming is a part of that




Well there's the rub.  Are we talking about an attractive girl or a girl worth knowing?  Not that they are mutually exclusive.  Plenty of geeks get attractive girls, and plenty of geeks don't.  Despite what some girls say about "honesty" and "niceness" being the most important qualities, studies have shown that confidence and appearance are far bigger factors.  Appearance is particularly important to attractive girls (sorry guys) as a whole.  Obviously, not all girls see that way, but as unfair as it may seem to some (although there's nothing really unfair about it IMO), that's just the way the world works.


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## Yeoman (Apr 14, 2005)

Wanna know what's funny? My wife is starting to really get into d&d, and so when we go to look for new books at the local stores (Riders or Underworld), whenever she asks questions to the staff, they address their answers to me, or they just ignore her. It's mind boggling.


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## Desdichado (Apr 14, 2005)

dungeon blaster said:
			
		

> Appearance is particularly important to attractive girls (sorry guys) as a whole.  Obviously, not all girls see that way, but as unfair as it may seem to some (although there's nothing really unfair about it IMO), that's just the way the world works.



Luckily for me, my wife didn't totally see things that way.  Not that I'm a troglodyte or anything like that, but my wife far surpasses me in appearance.  Especially these days that I've gotten a little bit puffier around the middle.


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## Desdichado (Apr 14, 2005)

Yeoman said:
			
		

> Wanna know what's funny? My wife is starting to really get into d&d, and so when we go to look for new books at the local stores (Riders or Underworld), whenever she asks questions to the staff, they address their answers to me, or they just ignore her. It's mind boggling.



So, I'm guessing you're from either Ann Arbor or west suburban Detroit, then?  I'm curious what you do in this case; if it were me, I'd say something borderline rude like, "what are you talking to me for, she asked the question," and make everyone feel foolish and awkward.  Then again, I tend to demand that others respect my wife.  

Of course, I'm pretty disgusted with the Riders folks anyway.  I always know quite a bit more about their gaming products than they do.


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## dungeon blaster (Apr 14, 2005)

Well there are exceptions


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## Klaus (Apr 14, 2005)

First of all, welcome to the boards! With 38 posts in a day, you could be catching up with our resident postmaster Crothian in no time! 

Second of all, welcome to the hobby! My current gaming group consists of me, my wife, a friend (who's been playing with me for more than 10 years) and his wife (so 3 PCs, 2 being women). I'm trying to reel in another friend (who already games) and his girlfriend (who never gamed).

Third of all, there are quite a few druid-oriented Prestige Classes. Complete Adventurer has the Daggerspell Shaper, Master of Many Forms, Wild Plains Outrider, Beastmaster, Fochlucan Lyrist (druid/bard). The Master of Radiance from the book Libris Mortis (you can find the class in the WotC website) has a very good sun-oriented vibe that, IMHO, meshes well with the druid (plus the illustration of a female elf druid/master of radiance is way cool!).

Fourth of all, feel free to peruse my on-line galleries for inspiration, as I try to make artwork that appeals to gamers of both genders!

Game On!


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## Yeoman (Apr 14, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> So, I'm guessing you're from either Ann Arbor or west suburban Detroit, then?  I'm curious what you do in this case; if it were me, I'd say something borderline rude like, "what are you talking to me for, she asked the question," and make everyone feel foolish and awkward.  Then again, I tend to demand that others respect my wife.
> 
> Of course, I'm pretty disgusted with the Riders folks anyway.  I always know quite a bit more about their gaming products than they do.



Yep we live in Ypsilanti. Yeah I give them a ton of crap over that, it annoys us to no end. It's funny, ever since we moved out here, she has a ton of problems like that. She gets ignored trying to buy video games, alcohol, and when we went to get her a rifle. A lot of shops seem to be downright rude here in michigan, it's a big culture shock from living in a real friendly area near Denver to coming here.


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## S'mon (Apr 14, 2005)

Sarajaine"The Solar" said:
			
		

> How long do you think  it takes for new players to get a grasp on the game? Obviously it depends on the individual  but knowing that I catch on quickly I was wondering how long it would take?




I inducted my friend Jamz into D&D, he seemed to get a grasp on it within a few minutes - he was playing a 6th level Sorcerer AFAICR.  He admittedly did Fireball his own cohorts.   It varies a lot, but I'd say generally 2-3 sessions will give a working knowledge on how the 3rd edition D&D game functions in-play.


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## Desdichado (Apr 14, 2005)

Yeoman said:
			
		

> Yep we live in Ypsilanti.



Heh.  I live in Canton, so I'm right around the corner.  Heck, our best friends (and my Blood Bowl buddies) live in Ypsi, so we head out there all the time.  Not that it's more than a 10-15 minute drive...


			
				Yeoman said:
			
		

> A lot of shops seem to be downright rude here in michigan, it's a big culture shock from living in a real friendly area near Denver to coming here.



Yeah, us too coming up from Texas.  It's like nobody expects to have to do any work when a customer comes in; they're just annoyed.  I don't get it.


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## I'm A Banana (Apr 14, 2005)

> Regarding my secret, I'm not ashamed of my love for geeks I just wish they would stop thinking they can't get a normal attractive girl just because they play dnd..its not like you all have the bubonic plague or anything! You give yourselves a stigma by being so paranoid about it... any girl worth knowing will like you for who you are and except that gaming is a part of that




Quoted for the tr00f. You should bounce around our off-topic forums, every couple of months they've got sad stories of guys who could use a kick in the pants like this. 

The more paranoid gamer guys have tended to have really bad experiences with girls growing up and haven't dealt with them in the best ways, usually. A beautiful woman is a special kind of dangerous for a heartfelt man, since she can hurt him in ways his guy friends can't. And when some have felt that hurt, D&D can become an escapist "safety zone." So a lovely girl coming into that zone can suddenly make them affraid again. Old wounds barely healed and all that. 

That said, be prepared for the crazies. Most of us are normal gents with a nerdy interest, but there's a vocal minority of what a lot of my female friends have called "congoblins" running around that don't play nice with others. So if you're heading out into the world looking to join a group, make sure to keep an eye peeled for the creepy, and don't let them crush the enthusiasm for the game.    I'll let Something*Positive explain....

http://www.somethingpositive.net/sp12272001.shtml
http://www.somethingpositive.net/sp02052002.shtml
http://www.somethingpositive.net/sp04292002.shtml
http://www.somethingpositive.net/sp04302002.shtml



> How long do you think it takes for new players to get a grasp on the game? Obviously it depends on the individual but knowing that I catch on quickly I was wondering how long it would take?




Like with any game, playing = knowing. Once you've picked up the dice and made a character and spun the minis 'round, it's pretty intuitive.


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## Rystil Arden (Apr 14, 2005)

Sarajaine"The Solar" said:
			
		

> How long do you think  it takes for new players to get a grasp on the game? Obviously it depends on the individual  but knowing that I catch on quickly I was wondering how long it would take?



 If you've read the books, you should be ready to take off and explore the world of D&D in your very first game.  I've even had people who never read the rules who took to it on their very first session.  Good luck!


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## Elf Witch (Apr 14, 2005)

dungeon blaster said:
			
		

> I considered that, and I feel that may have been "part" of her argument, but honestly I think she was bragging.  Of course, only she knows for sure, right?  I could very well have been completely off in my observation, but it doesn't mean I won't make that observation if I think I am correct.  For example, when she mentions she looks like a cheerleader-type...if she had said that she doesn't look like the stereotypical gamer girl I might not have thought of it as bragging.  And yes, there is a point to be made about attractive girls and gaming - that the more attractive a girl is, the less people will associate her with gaming.  I understand that.




As we all know only ugly girls really game the rest are pretenders only there to get a man or keep an eye on their boy friend or husband.

What turned me off this post was how often you pointed how pretty you were then to prove we had to have the picture in the bikini. 

I am female gamer and yes I am overweight but I do not have pimples nor do I dress in ratty shirts and jeans. I wear nice clothes even dresses and make up and jewlery, perfume. 

I know other gamers who fit the sterotype to a tee but I also know gamers who don't how about a former Miss Florida/USA.

I don't know you but I have met "girls" who use there looks in everything they do and then wonder why they are not taken seriously. It is the way the put themselves across. The way they talk, dress and guys and other women pick up on it and don't take them or what they seriously. It is true that beautiful women have a harder time being taken seriously but sometimes they contribute to it by the way they act. Because for some reason they always need to be the center of attention they don't share well. Especially with other woman. This is not meant to be a blanket statement of all beautiful women.

If you really want to game go out and find a group. It is a great hobby. Since you have a baby on the way maybe online games might be the best. because as I mother I know how limited your times is about to become.


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## Scratched_back (Apr 14, 2005)

Sarajaine"The Solar" said:
			
		

> Here is me in a bikini but unfortunately not chain mail. It doesn't matter what you look like and I don't think Im attractive or ugly, I don't think what I look like has any relavance to the game.
> <img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v730/sarajaine/sarajaine.jpg" alt="Image hosted by Photobucket.com">




I wrote a thread about my girlfriend this morning. When she woke up, I told her I'd written it, showed her how to create an ENWorld account and said she should, to post any replies she might want to give to funny posts.

I went out to work this afternoon, and she'd been on the PC a little while, I don't think anything of it.

I come back from work, her thread has exploded to five pages, she's been -in no particular order - proposed to (or propositioned), fallen in love with, hit on, applauded, criticised, joked with, corrected, advised, dismissed, berrated, welcomed, encouraged, accused... and most concerningly... rather most _notably_ of all dear readers... revealed. 

Only on ENWorld folks!

I love this place!


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## Banshee16 (Apr 14, 2005)

Well, I would hope that most gamers don't actually have a problem with women playing.  I think that many people are a bit defensive about it though.  I saw enough instances in High School where gamers I knew were openly harassed and ridiculed by peers, and basically ostracized, when some clever bully or other found out about the hobby.

As a result, they get defensive.  I think there's an insecurity factor involved, and the fear that if women know what the guy is into, they'll somehow think less about them.  Not sure if that makes sense.

I myself kept my hobby private through school.  Not all my friends did, and they suffered for it.  Severely.  I think it's wrong that it was allowed to happen by the school authorities, but that's 13 years in the past, now.  I also had interests outside of gaming...competitive swimming, lifeguarding, art, soccer, and regular high school stuff....but a lot of gamers I knew didn't.....gaming is all they did.  By strange coincidence a few years back, I learned that half the guys in my division of my company were gamers, but nobody realized anyone else was, since everyone was keeping it private.

Even now, some of the guys I've had in my group have been a little reclusive.  I don't know if that kind of person is drawn to roleplaying, or if they become like that being so defensive and reclusive about their hobby.  I've learned on two separate instances to be careful about mixing my gaming friends with my other friends.  On two separate instances, players of mine who had the opportunity to meet my sister, who is very attractive and very outgoing.  In these instances they made inappropriate comments to her.  Not suggestive, but in one case being rather pushy, and in both instances, telling her, who they had literally met only once or twice that they had never kissed a girl or had a girlfriend, or asking her out when it's been made clear that she's already in a long-term, committed relationship.  Those types of things.  Obviously these instances have made her uncomfortable.  And some of these guys are like 30.  It's just not the kind of thing you say to someone you just met.  And then I'm left making excuses for these guys.

On other instances, I've had guys in the group make comments about my own girlfriend, and in another instance, one of them did something that made my girlfriend very uncomfortable in our own house.  If these were non-gamer friends, I'd be angrier, but with these particular friends, I feel bad, because I don't think they have the experience to know any better.

After having said this, I realize that it sounds like I'm painting all gamers with the weird brush.  Many are quite "normal"....whatever the label "normal" means.  Most of my players aren't like the ones I've mentioned, nor am I.  Maybe because of defensiveness about the hobby, some gamers don't have the opportunities to interact with a lot of women, and hence have difficulty accepting them in their groups?  I don't know the answer.  I suspect that it's ones like that that make such a big deal out of women playing.

I've had women in my groups before, though not many, and those I had were excellent roleplayers.

On the flip side of things, many women I've known just didn't understand the hobby at all.  Even my girlfriend of almost 4 years doesn't really understand it, though she accepts it since she knows I enjoy it.

Banshee


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## Scratched_back (Apr 14, 2005)

*from sarajaine "The Solar"*



			
				Elf Witch said:
			
		

> As we all know only ugly girls really game the rest are pretenders only there to get a man or keep an eye on their boy friend or husband.
> 
> What turned me off this post was how often you pointed how pretty you were then to prove we had to have the picture in the bikini.
> 
> ...



I never once mentioned I was attractive or ugly or anything about that. If you think I'm attractive that is your opinion.The only thing I ever said was that I did'nt look like a typical gamer. Someone commented on how I mentioned how I looked and a big debate arose as to what I do look like. I posted the 'bikini' picture because o f the on going joke about chain mail bikini's. I shouldn't be slated because I look a certain way and neither should you. I'm deeper than a puddle and I don't believe that life is all about looks. This thread has strayed galaxies away from my enitial point.


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## fusangite (Apr 14, 2005)

This thread is great. Every time I look at it, it's talking about something slightly different. 

I want to latch onto something Kamikaze Midget said,







> The more paranoid gamer guys have tended to have really bad experiences with girls growing up and haven't dealt with them in the best ways, usually. A beautiful woman is a special kind of dangerous for a heartfelt man, since she can hurt him in ways his guy friends can't. And when some have felt that hurt, D&D can become an escapist "safety zone." So a lovely girl coming into that zone can suddenly make them affraid again. Old wounds barely healed and all that.



I think one of the problems/issues in our hobby is what has happened to the position of geeks in society. In the past generation, geek culture has exploded into the mainstream. Thanks, largely, to the massive cultural over-representation of geeks in the first generations of computer programming, our subculture has begun to collect more and more people who are geeks by choice rather than necessity. This creates an uncomfortable dynamic for those of us who became geeks in high school because we had no other choice -- we simply could not socially function in other subcultures because our skills were insufficient. 

So, we're kind of like those working class families living in neighbourhoods that are being gentrified. On the one hand, we're pleased with all the cool coffee shops and art galleries opening down the street. On the other, we're expecting that any minute now, we'll get chased out of our ghetto. 

This helps to explain our incredulity when someone cute and/or successful expresses an attraction to our culture. Many of us are used to thinking of being geeks as a disability rather than a lifestyle choice. We immediately want to place you in the same category as amputee- and fat-fetishists. After all, why would you want to live in this slum when you could live anywhere? We live here because this is where we can afford to live. 

Anyway, I hope that makes things a little more comprehensible. If not, this post has allowed me to waste 23 minutes of time I would otherwise have spent writing about landscape Christianization in Late Antique and Early Medieval Europe.


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## Darth K'Trava (Apr 15, 2005)

Sarajaine"The Solar" said:
			
		

> Nah he is a darling really,all his friends are they just can't help having a little dig sometimes about dnd+girls don't mix





Frankly, he needs to get over this "little dig" or else he might jeopardize the whole relationship due to his being an ass about it. 

Women can play D&D just as well, or even better than, the guys. Sometimes us women (I'm female, BTW) can be more bloodthirsty and power-hungry than any guy.... and. on the other end of the spectrum, can probably roleplay better. Our group is mixed, male and female. Granted half our group consists of married couples but there's a few singles who game, including myself in the latter category.


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## Darkness (Apr 15, 2005)

Yeoman said:
			
		

> Wanna know what's funny? My wife is starting to really get into d&d, and so when we go to look for new books at the local stores (Riders or Underworld), whenever she asks questions to the staff, they address their answers to me, or they just ignore her. It's mind boggling.



I had a similar experience some years ago while helping my mom shop for electronics (or something - I don't remember the specifics).
Even though she asked the questions and I was only there to help carry the stuff, the guy would address his answers to me.


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## Yeoman (Apr 15, 2005)

Darkness said:
			
		

> I had a similar experience some years ago while helping my mom shop for electronics (or something - I don't remember the specifics).
> Even though she asked the questions and I was only there to help carry the stuff, the guy would address his answers to me.



Ridiculous isn't it?


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## Darkness (Apr 15, 2005)

Quite.

Granted, young men are sometimes more interested in electronics than middle-aged women are. But going by stereotypes instead of reacting to actual people standing right before you is hardly acceptable - particularly when you're supposed to be a professional salesman.
(It weren't particularly arcane electronics, either. Just... something like, music, video, or cooking stuff.)


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## Banshee16 (Apr 15, 2005)

Darkness said:
			
		

> I had a similar experience some years ago while helping my mom shop for electronics (or something - I don't remember the specifics).
> Even though she asked the questions and I was only there to help carry the stuff, the guy would address his answers to me.




Hmmm...similar experience with car shopping.  We were in a Mazda dealership, and my girlfriend was buying the car.  She wanted to check out one of their new models.  The guy was talking to me.....literally over her head.  She was trying to ask questions.  It was quite rude.  She was obviously incensed that he was treating her like she didn't have a brain, and we left.

We actually called the manager of that dealership the next day and lodged a formal complaint, but the manager didn't seem to care.  Talking with friends afterwards, apparently this wasn't unique to that Mazda dealership.  So, they lost out on a sale, since she ended up purchasing from a Ford dealership, where the salespeople actually knew how to talk to her.

Banshee


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## Desdichado (Apr 15, 2005)

fusangite said:
			
		

> This creates an uncomfortable dynamic for those of us who became geeks in high school because we had no other choice -- we simply could not socially function in other subcultures because our skills were insufficient.



You make it sound like being a "geek" was because that was the only group left and we had to join it, sorta like being picked last for the sports team as a kid.  I never felt that way.  I dunno.  Maybe I wasn't enough of a geek, but I moved in all kinds of social circles in high school.  Maybe my high school was also unusual in that all the A/P type classe and other "advanced" studies were also frequented by the preppy "queen bee" crowd.  As for liking D&D, fantasy/sci-fi and all that, I've been that way as long as I can remember; certainly even before starting kindergarten I was fascinatined with the fantastic.


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## Jolly Giant (Apr 15, 2005)

Welcome to ENWorld, Solar!   

Terribly sorry to hear about your problems, though. It sounds like you are really into the game, and you havn't even got a chance to try it...  :\  Forgive me for saying so, but yor boyfriend and his friends sound real immature! How old are they anyway???

I'm glad my group isn't like your boyfriend's! We currently have only one female member (my girlfriend), but when we play RPGs gender is completely irrelevant. The rest of the group has girlfriends too (even though we're all geeks!   ), but only one who plays RPGs, and she is currently studying in another town. I'm guessing (and hoping) she'll join the group once she's completed her studies, though.

I'm sure you would love D&D if you just got a chance to play! Couples' games can be fun; when I introduced MY girlfriend to D&D it was a game with two other couples. Maybe you and your boyfriend could try to find another couple or two to play with? Perhaps he wouldn't be so negative to you playing if he could still get to keep his 'boys only'-nights.


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## dungeon blaster (Apr 15, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> You make it sound like being a "geek" was because that was the only group left and we had to join it, sorta like being picked last for the sports team as a kid. I never felt that way. I dunno. Maybe I wasn't enough of a geek, but I moved in all kinds of social circles in high school. Maybe my high school was also unusual in that all the A/P type classe and other "advanced" studies were also frequented by the preppy "queen bee" crowd. As for liking D&D, fantasy/sci-fi and all that, I've been that way as long as I can remember; certainly even before starting kindergarten I was fascinatined with the fantastic.




It depends.  For some geeks, it may be a lack of social skills.  For others, it may simply be an interest in activities traditionally defined as geeky.  There's a mixture of both types of geeks, although it's usually easy to tell them apart.

Ever notice that when your go to a restaurant, the waiter almost always gives the bill to the guy, even if the girl is going to pay or appears more successful?

Someone mentioned that attractive girls are not taken seriously.  There's some evidence to back that up, but I would say any disadvantages attractive girls have are more than made up for by the advantages.  What advantages?  Beautiful people are universally viewed as more intelligent, more interesting, more talented, more (insert good quality).  If you're ugly, don't go claiming discrimination quite yet, it's not likley to get you anywhere.


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## MojoGM (Apr 15, 2005)

BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> Whatever happened to Dragongirl or Djeta? They just disappeared.




Well, I can answer part of that question.  Djeta has been spending a lot of time on the Disneyworld message boards planning our next trip (at the end of May).  She has tried to log on to the boards at work (she and I work together) but for some reason this site is extremely slow on our work computers.

Next week she's starting a new job where she will have less time during the day to peruse the net (I'm staying at the same company, but even I've had less time to read ENWORLD lately).

Usually when we get home we don't get a chance to use our computers, so she doesn't get to post much.  

I imagine she'll be back though, we still game every other weekend and she always asks about interesting threads that go on here.


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## arwink (Apr 15, 2005)

S'mon said:
			
		

> I was thinking more of the male gamers just talking loudly, competing for attention, and ignoring the female gamer.  I've even seen this w my wife who's pretty assertive (admittedly the guys were _Australians_)




Hey   They were Austrlaians in the UK - that's an entirely different breed from those that stay back home.


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## Scratched_back (Apr 15, 2005)

Jolly Giant said:
			
		

> Terribly sorry to hear about your problems, though. It sounds like you are really into the game, and you havn't even got a chance to try it... :\ Forgive me for saying so, but yor boyfriend and his friends sound real immature! How old are they anyway??? I'm glad my group isn't like your boyfriend's!



I'm 21. Now and again my friends come over and we make fun of my girlfriend because it pleases us. Occasionally I make her wear small underwear and a dog collar and she spends the night bringing us beers and snacks. 



			
				Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> Frankly, he needs to get over this "little dig" or else he might jeopardize the whole relationship due to his being an ass about it.



Yeah you're right, I AM willing to jeapordise my relationship over D&D. I mean I do love her, live with her and she is five months pregnant with our child... but I don't care as long as I hit ninth level! I'll just keep gaming and ignoring her eh? Roll on XP!

Oh wait, hang on. That'd be stupid, just like assumptions generally are.


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## Talath (Apr 15, 2005)

Scratched_back said:
			
		

> I'm 21. Now and again my friends come over and we make fun of my girlfriend because it pleases us. Occasionally I make her wear small underwear and a dog collar and she spends the night bringing us beers and snacks.




What, is she a japanese girl?  



			
				Scratched_back said:
			
		

> Yeah you're right, I AM willing to jeapordise my relationship over D&D. I mean I do love her, live with her and she is five months pregnant with our child... but I don't care as long as I hit ninth level! I'll just keep gaming and ignoring her eh? Roll on XP!




Ninth level is overrated. Now 12th level - thats the sweet spot.


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## dungeon blaster (Apr 15, 2005)

You must play 2ed...9th level took forever to reach.


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## Elf Witch (Apr 15, 2005)

Scratched_back said:
			
		

> I never once mentioned I was attractive or ugly or anything about that. If you think I'm attractive that is your opinion.The only thing I ever said was that I did'nt look like a typical gamer. Someone commented on how I mentioned how I looked and a big debate arose as to what I do look like. I posted the 'bikini' picture because o f the on going joke about chain mail bikini's. I shouldn't be slated because I look a certain way and neither should you. I'm deeper than a puddle and I don't believe that life is all about looks. This thread has strayed galaxies away from my enitial point.




What I find really rather interesting is that almost everyone else who has posted assumed the same thing that you were saying that part of the problem was that you were attractive. One poster wondered if you were bragging. You yourself used the word cheerleader as in people would asume that it would be something you would be more interested in. Now when one thinks of cheerleaders one usually thinks of a well toned pretty girl.  

You also said that you are a girl who does not "look" like she would know anything about gaming. What does a girl who would be interested in gaming look like? As far as I know we don't have a uniform.

You say you don't believe life is about looks that's great because it should not be. 

I am not saying that you don't have a valid point and these guys are not jerks. There are guys out there who don't like the idea of female gamers. There are morons who think women cannot ever be as smart as a guy. 

But to be honest your post really got my back up. Go back and read it and see if you can see why.


----------



## MojoGM (Apr 15, 2005)

Nifelhein said:
			
		

> I haven't been much aroudn to, but didn't Djeta had a bf or husband around here too?




*raises hand* Yup, the bf would be me.  I'm still here, still reading all the threads but rarely posting (and rarely remembering to log in even).

Djeta usually asks me what's going on here or reads over my shoulder (and tries to get me to post more...can't say for sure why I don't...)

This is an interesting discussion though, enough to bring me out of lurk mode.

I'll have to tell Djeta about this thread, I'm sure she'd agree with Sarajaine on this one.

Oh, by the way, Hi Sarajaine.  Welcome to the boards!


----------



## fusangite (Apr 15, 2005)

Scratched_back said:
			
		

> I'm 21. Now and again my friends come over and we make fun of my girlfriend because it pleases us. Occasionally I make her wear small underwear and a dog collar and she spends the night bringing us beers and snacks.
> 
> Yeah you're right, I AM willing to jeapordise my relationship over D&D. I mean I do love her, live with her and she is five months pregnant with our child... but I don't care as long as I hit ninth level! I'll just keep gaming and ignoring her eh? Roll on XP!
> 
> Oh wait, hang on. That'd be stupid, just like assumptions generally are.



Hey -- you and your friends aren't looking good enough on this thread right now for you to pull off this joke. Maybe you should tell people what's actually going on before anybody really runs with this flippant response.

Actually, that goes for both of you. But then that's okay too... we're cutting you _some_ slack for your youth.


----------



## Herremann the Wise (Apr 15, 2005)

arwink said:
			
		

> Hey   They were Austrlaians in the UK - that's an entirely different breed from those that stay back home.




Here, here!!!
Oh wait...    



			
				Scratched-back said:
			
		

> Jolly Giant said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I've seen several instances of feet being wedged firmly in mouths on this thread so far. If nothing else, it has been amusing. I hope you _both_ enjoy your gaming experiences and best of health for your soon to be family addition.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise


----------



## Scratched_back (Apr 15, 2005)

fusangite said:
			
		

> Hey -- you and your friends aren't looking good enough on this thread right now for you to pull off this joke. Maybe you should tell people what's actually going on before anybody really runs with this flippant response.
> 
> Actually, that goes for both of you. But then that's okay too... we're cutting you _some_ slack for your youth.




Well then, taking that slack for youth, I shall endevour to explain a little more, as long as nobody else acuses me of jeapordising my relationship by doing so  

Sarajaine, my girlfriend likes the game of D&D very much. Although she has never played, she reads all the books I have (Nigh on everything published by WotC in the last two years) and listens to my stories of my sessions, looking up monsters where appropriate, occasionally commenting with "Well I'd have done this..." kind of thing.

She's mentioned many times that she'd like to play, but didn't know any girls that'd go for it, for one reason or another. A bunch of friends of mine that I gamed with years ago often visit my house, we chat about D&D a lot, they tell me about my their game I tell them about mine. I quit their group several years ago because it was more or less pure Hack & Slash, I wanted something a little more flavourous. One or two of them have made jokes such as "You couldn't play D&D, you'd think all the monsters were too cute and just needed a good home and some TLC" which as far as I'm concerned, isn't something to make someone break down and cry, and considering my girlfriends response of laughter, my hunch was correct.

There's been other times when discussing detailed combats under exhilerating conditions that she may have wandered in and asking what we were talking about. One friend of mine may've said "You wouldn't understand, you're a girl." again, in jest. We know each other, we're not sexist pig-dogs; nobody suggested she should shut up and get hoovering.

I think the main reason this was posted in the first place was because a lot of people, and maybe it is a local phenomenon, where we're from dismiss girls quite quickly. I worked in the ONLY local gaming store for five years, and I know of one... ONE!... female gamer. Even then, she played Vampire (or anything white-wolf and/or trenchcoat related) not D&D. There just seems to be an inordinate lack of female RPG'ers in these parts. Bizaare.

NB: Not something we're going to break up over, as previously suggested


----------



## dungeon blaster (Apr 15, 2005)

Have you thought of DMing her solo just so she can get a taste of the game?


----------



## Xath (Apr 15, 2005)

Every time I see a thread like this, I split into several opinions. 

One wonders why we need to preface the Gamer title with a gender.  Hopefully some day we won't need to.  Sometimes I wonder if the "look at me, I'm a female gamer" mentality is part of the reason why such differentiations still exist.  I don't know, and I don't particularly care.  I've been faced with the spectrum of reactions to the fact that I gamed and I'm still gaming.  Not to prove a point that I can, but because I enjoy it as a hobby (or obsession).  

The other wants to rally behind the girl in question and fight for female gamer power.  Because I have seen the bad reactions, and I know what it feels like to be looked down upon because you have different "equipment" in your "inventory." 

I think what I'm trying to say is:

If you really want to play, play.  And play to enjoy yourself.  Proving the jerks wrong is just a perk; it shouldn't be your driving force.  

If you don't want to play, stop complaining.  Those of us who really want to play for the love of the game do so, and we don't take chauvanistic crap from anyone.  If you just want to say you should be allowed to play, you are.  Noone is stopping you from gaming but you.


----------



## Scratched_back (Apr 15, 2005)

dungeon blaster said:
			
		

> Have you thought of DMing her solo just so she can get a taste of the game?




I have thought of it, many many times. I even have material I wrote for another campaign that never took off that I could run straight away. Lamentably, I work very unsociable hours, and with her being pregnant, she gets tired relatively early. It's hard enough to even sit down together for an hour to relax, nevermind keep an intricate storyline/game going.

It is sad though, I'd do it in a heartbeat otherwise.


----------



## Scratched_back (Apr 15, 2005)

Xath said:
			
		

> ...and I know what it feels like to be looked down upon because you have different "equipment" in your "inventory."




Classic. Best metaphor yet.


----------



## FreeTheSlaves (Apr 15, 2005)

One of my friends girlfriend (also a friend) wants to play in our group but I've said no, for now. My decision was based on the following:

1) The group of players now number 5, me included, and combat ticks along nicely.
2) Her boyfriend has reservations, his reasons are his own.
3) She hasn't read the PHB, got dice, nor seems keen to.
4) Character plots are taking root and the guys are starting to buy into my serious campaign plot arcs. A new character needs investment effort.
5) Previous one-off play saw her character act not in tune with the world, culminating in her trying to pet 2 marauding dire hyena's. 

Most of my mates are guys and were naturally the first to be approached for a game of D&D. Previous experience and the core rule recommendation is to limit the game to a manageable group, sorry but this is canon as far as I'm concerned. 

Interestingly, woman characters are common occurance and almost proportional to society.


----------



## I'm A Banana (Apr 15, 2005)

> I'm 21. Now and again my friends come over and we make fun of my girlfriend because it pleases us. Occasionally I make her wear small underwear and a dog collar and she spends the night bringing us beers and snacks.




Yeah, see, what most of the nerds 'round here don't know is that chicks totally dig the jerks! Nice guys are just there to walk on! If you can't treat your woman like crap every now and agian, she'll leave you high and dry for not being a REAL MAN.


----------



## driver8 (Apr 15, 2005)

While I agree with much of what has been said about women and gaming and find it interesting, I also have to pause and smile at the length of the thread. 

Only among gamers, almost sterotypically so, would a thread by a woman about women attract 208 replies in six pages in the space of 16 hours.

Like flies to honey


----------



## Nifft (Apr 15, 2005)

Girls are allowed to post here?!?

 -- N


----------



## Turanil (Apr 15, 2005)

Sarajaine"The Solar" said:
			
		

> Is it just that you are afraid <...> we will see you <...> moved at slaying a dragon may make you lose any sexual credibility and make you less of a man.



Exactly!!    




			
				Sarajaine"The Solar" said:
			
		

> There are some women and I am most certainly one of them who think that guys who are geeks are extremely hot!



In the US maybe. Certainly not in France!!    



			
				Sarajaine"The Solar" said:
			
		

> I would much rather my man conjure spells and be doing something constructive and fun than a belching,scratching yob leering at a football game.



And what about NASCAR?!   




			
				Sarajaine"The Solar" said:
			
		

> <...> so why are you ashamed of it?



In France, it's seen as a retarded teenager's pastime. And I am thrice the age of a teenager...


----------



## The_Gunslinger658 (Apr 15, 2005)

Hi ya-

NASCAR rocks, every sunday morning I put my country station on (95.5FM) and listen to  NASCAR  racing while I'll struggle to create another masks of Nayarlathtep NPC. Hmmmm I think Dale Ernhardt would make a great cultist priest to the King in Yellow.

Well, its off to the range this weekend to shoot up some targets and drink some beer.


Scott


----------



## Goblyns Hoard (Apr 15, 2005)

S'mon said:
			
		

> Cheers mate.
> 
> I _try_ not to oppress the poor things, really I do...




  I quite understand, oppressing players like you have must be terribly difficult... particularly when you only have a little Mongali Horde to threaten them with.


----------



## Goblyns Hoard (Apr 15, 2005)

Yeoman said:
			
		

> Wanna know what's funny? My wife is starting to really get into d&d, and so when we go to look for new books at the local stores (Riders or Underworld), whenever she asks questions to the staff, they address their answers to me, or they just ignore her. It's mind boggling.





I get his with car mechanics...  my partner's an engineer and understands the things... I'm a biologist and just know that the car gets me from a to b.... 

so the mechanic is there asking me questions... I'm shrugging and acting like the ignorant bar steward I am... she's answering the questions... and he's still talking at me....

we learned after a while to just have me not there when there are problems with the car - solves all the problems.


----------



## S'mon (Apr 15, 2005)

Scratched_back said:
			
		

> I think the main reason this was posted in the first place was because a lot of people, and maybe it is a local phenomenon, where we're from dismiss girls quite quickly. I worked in the ONLY local gaming store for five years, and I know of one... ONE!... female gamer. Even then, she played Vampire (or anything white-wolf and/or trenchcoat related) not D&D. There just seems to be an inordinate lack of female RPG'ers in these parts. Bizaare.




Makes me wonder what city you're in - I'm guessing Newcastle, maybe even Sunderland (  )?


----------



## Bront (Apr 15, 2005)

Sarajaine"The Solar" said:
			
		

> ...I don't get this assumption at all:\ I think most guys feel that the nearest women get to being involved in a game is when we totter round wearing our aprons handing out mid encounter nibbles before disappearing into the background.
> ...
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> I got sidetracked for a second there
> ...




First of all, this is the only reply to this post I've read, so I don't know if any of this has been covered but...

I'm a second generation gamer in my late 20s.  I started playing with my dad in solo stuff, or even occasionaly with my mother (who later decided she didn't want to play, though neither my dad or I know why).  I joined my first group when I was 10, joining my dad's group (I was the only one under 25), which had 2 prominant female players.  Granted, they were wives of other players, but they were just as compitent and knowledgable about the rules as anyone else.

When I was 14-15, I went to GenCon as a ref, and assisted NASCRAG (We run the second largest RPG tourny at the con, I believe our 25th aniversery was last year.) in running the modules, which were often written by both men and women authors.  I also got to meet several very good female roleplayers, both in roleplaying skill and rules knowledge.

As an adult, I have met several compitent women gamers, and have been in regular campaigns with quite a few.  It never realy was an issue with me, nor those in my gaming circle.  Now, generaly women gamers are rarer, but they are out there.

Now, in my personal experience, several of the best roleplayers (in character players) have been women.  Often, many of the men get more hooked up into the stats and rules than actualy building a character concept.  However, that doesn't mean that they were slackers in rules knowledge.

Hope that helps.


----------



## Sarajaine"The Solar" (Apr 15, 2005)

S'mon said:
			
		

> Makes me wonder what city you're in - I'm guessing Newcastle, maybe even Sunderland (  )?



middlesbrough


----------



## Belen (Apr 15, 2005)

MojoGM said:
			
		

> *raises hand* Yup, the bf would be me.  I'm still here, still reading all the threads but rarely posting (and rarely remembering to log in even).
> 
> Djeta usually asks me what's going on here or reads over my shoulder (and tries to get me to post more...can't say for sure why I don't...)
> 
> ...




Tell her we said "hi."  It's always said when some of the regulars disappear.


----------



## S'mon (Apr 15, 2005)

Sarajaine"The Solar" said:
			
		

> middlesbrough




Aye, with the macho thing and the lack of gaming... I didn't find Yorkshire suffered from either.


----------



## Desdichado (Apr 15, 2005)

Xath said:
			
		

> I know what it feels like to be looked down upon because you have different "equipment" in your "inventory."



Well, yeah.  How can you play D&D without a "sword?"


----------



## fusangite (Apr 15, 2005)

Xath said:
			
		

> One wonders why we need to preface the Gamer title with a gender.  Hopefully some day we won't need to.



That's only going to happen when women represent a larger portion of the hobby. Titles like "male cheerleader" and "male nurse" continue to be used without people taking offence because these professions are dominated by women. In any group that is overwhelmingly one gender or the other, gender-defining language will be affixed to most references to members of the minority gender.







> Sometimes I wonder if the "look at me, I'm a female gamer" mentality is part of the reason why such differentiations still exist.



I'm more inclined to put it down to demographic realities and terminological precision.


----------



## Mrbunny (Apr 15, 2005)

So i shall now unmask myself as the guy who calls your beloved SJ a rookie.
I'm Bens (Scratched_back) and Sarajaine"The Solar" very good real life friend.  
It is between me and ben that SJ has got the idea that guys hide there geekness away from the world.  This is our view of the world that has come from mine and bens long on again off again working relationship with our local gaming store.


----------



## Sarajaine"The Solar" (Apr 15, 2005)

Mrbunny said:
			
		

> So i shall now unmask myself as the guy who calls your beloved SJ a rookie.
> I'm Bens (Scratched_back) and Sarajaine"The Solar" very good real life friend.
> It is between me and ben that SJ has got the idea that guys hide there geekness away from the world. This is our view of the world that has come from mine and bens long on again off again working relationship with our local gaming store.



Hehe hey Leady  welcome to the madness


----------



## Thanee (Apr 15, 2005)

Sarajaine"The Solar" said:
			
		

> My original reason for writing this drivel was that girls seemed to get a severe mocking when it comes to having an interest in Dnd.
> 
> What bugs me is why whenever girls talk about DnD or claim they know someting related to it we get laughed at!




Can't say, that I ever noticed anything like this. 

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Mrbunny (Apr 15, 2005)

Sarajaine"The Solar" said:
			
		

> Hehe hey Leady  welcome to the madness



Oh i know i just couldn't help myself.


----------



## Sarajaine"The Solar" (Apr 15, 2005)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Can't say, that I ever noticed anything like this



good for you


----------



## yennico (Apr 15, 2005)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Can't say, that I ever noticed anything like this.
> 
> Bye
> Thanee



I also never noticed anything like this.

A fellow GM disallows any female in his group because if a female plays in his group the male players act totaly different as if there sits no female gamer at the table.


----------



## Belen (Apr 15, 2005)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Can't say, that I ever noticed anything like this.
> 
> Bye
> Thanee




So is it time for another Thanee thread?


----------



## Vraille Darkfang (Apr 15, 2005)

Well Great,

Leave, come back after a day & look what I started.

She actually POSTED a picutre in a bikini.  I guess now I'll have to put on my wife's and post my pick here too.

Actually.  Why not put all this "Who's a hottie" physical appearence debate to rest?  Everybody take bikini pictures and post them.

I KNOW I've been wondering what Crothian & Piratecat would look like in a nice Brazilian cut G-String.


Just to make sure everyone's clear on this..... I'M JOKING.  Please lets not turn this into Hot or Not for gamers.  Everyone has a different standard of beauty.  And, ultimatly if you want to spend the rest of your life with someone, personality is what counts, both in love & friendship.

After 50 years of marriage, looks will fade, persona will remain.

As to SaraJaine & Scatched Back.  I wish you nothing but love & happiness for a long time.

P.S. When you want name Ideas for the baby.  Come here and ask.  Nobody comes up with better names than gamers (as detailed in another thread around here).


----------



## Djeta Thernadier (Apr 15, 2005)

MojoGM said:
			
		

> *raises hand* Yup, the bf would be me.  I'm still here, still reading all the threads but rarely posting (and rarely remembering to log in even).
> 
> Djeta usually asks me what's going on here or reads over my shoulder (and tries to get me to post more...can't say for sure why I don't...)
> 
> ...




I'm here. ::waves::

Sarajaine, I can totally relate. 

I most definately do not look like someone who'd know a lot about gaming. (Trust me, I'm at my office job right now wearing a pink baseball shirt with Bambi on it and designer jeans and I look like the total opposite of your stereotypical gamer) 

I dated a guy in college who gamed and when I wanted to play, know what I was told??? I was told, they did not want any female players because they didn't think I'd catch on or that I'd quit if I ever broke up with the guy. (Needless to say, I did break up with him because he was a woman hating loon, and this didn't help his case.  ) 

Then I met another gamer group. There was one girl in the group and she was unbearably catty and the thought of another female intruding about her gamer boys just made her worse. I fell out of touch with that group too. 

Now I play two games on a regular basis. In one group, I'm the only girl and the only one whose PC has not died yet.   

I know what you mean about being taken seriously. It's almost like it's okay for guys to be geeky, but women should all be fluffy and rainbows and dreadful pop music and shopping and every other stereotypically female thing there is. And 20 sided dice are not on that list.

Luckily, I think with the advent of the LOTR movies, being into fantasy is becomming more acceptable socially, and with it, hopefully more and more women will take to gaming. I have a female friend who is somewhat interested and have known a handful of women in my lfie who I think would probably get into it if it was more "socially acceptable". 

Oh, and sweetie, if any guy in your gaming group ever talks down to you are tells you to fetch the men a beer, kick him in the shins for me.   

And then, the next time you slay a dragon, keep all the treasure (and XP) for yourself. 

~DT


----------



## Taren Nighteyes (Apr 15, 2005)

*Interesting Thread - and my personal views*

Sarajaine"The Solar",

From my own experiences, I can tell you that I have enjoyed having my ex-cheerleader wife become a gamer 

She had never played the game before meeting me.  She thought the game was interesting, but never developed a passion for it until she was home and bored one day, and I invited her to play in my group to give her something to do, and to give it a try.  She likes it enough to spend time typing out every spell in her spell book, and run ideas and rules by me as gaming day approaches.  She spends more time prep-ing her character than I spend working on the campaign (I'm a fly by the seat of your pants kind of DM).


Guys should look at having SO's play as an opportunity to spend some time together, share the same friends and interests.  As long as the desire to play the game is there - then let them play I say!  (Unless the group is full - then you should kick the ugliest, least liked gaming buddy to the curb, to let the hot bikini clad girl play - assuming she will wear the bikini on gaming day!)

I've attached a pic of me and my wife (who is not wearing a bikini, because she would kill me if I did post a pic of her in one without permission - I'm at work and can't ask    )

We are quite happy playing DND together   I'll bet you and your boyfriend would enjoy playing together too.  DND that is!


Taren Nighteyes


----------



## Sarajaine"The Solar" (Apr 15, 2005)

Djeta Thernadier said:
			
		

> I'm here. ::waves::
> 
> Sarajaine, I can totally relate.
> 
> ...



Hehe  A girl after my own heart who gets me and my point *bows down in gratitude*


----------



## Sarajaine"The Solar" (Apr 15, 2005)

Taren Nighteyes said:
			
		

> Sarajaine"The Solar",
> 
> From my own experiences, I can tell you that I have enjoyed having my ex-cheerleader wife become a gamer
> 
> ...



Thank you. Its really nice that you share a common interest and I hope that even tho we may not play at the same table, my bf and I can share the same love for dnd.


----------



## Sarajaine"The Solar" (Apr 15, 2005)

Vraille Darkfang said:
			
		

> As to SaraJaine & Scatched Back. I wish you nothing but love & happiness for a long time.
> 
> P.S. When you want name Ideas for the baby. Come here and ask. Nobody comes up with better names than gamers (as detailed in another thread around here).



Thank you...I wish that for us too  To anyone on this thread who wishes to leave talks of appearence behind I would welcome any fantasy girl names for the baby, I like elven names as they are softer although they tend to be long too.  Any input would be great


----------



## Vraille Darkfang (Apr 15, 2005)

Taren Nighteyes said:
			
		

> I've attached a pic of me and my wife (who is not wearing a bikini, because she would kill me if I did post a pic of her in one without permission - I'm at work and can't ask    )
> 
> Taren Nighteyes




Ok, if pic posting is going on.... I think the EN World moderators have a duty for each of them to post a picture in their best bikini  , If they actually do it maybe   or  might be more suitable.


----------



## Rel (Apr 15, 2005)

Sarajaine"The Solar" said:
			
		

> Hehe  A girl after my own heart who gets me and my point *bows down in gratitude*




Plus, Djeta is hawt.


----------



## Djeta Thernadier (Apr 15, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> Plus, Djeta is hawt.


----------



## Rel (Apr 15, 2005)

Sarajaine"The Solar" said:
			
		

> Thank you...I wish that for us too  To anyone on this thread who wishes to leave talks of appearence behind I would welcome any fantasy girl names for the baby, I like elven names as they are softer although they tend to be long too.  Any input would be great




I'm obviously not willing to leave talks of appearance behind (see post above). 

But my wife's name is Morgana and I think it is one of the coolest names around.  She gets lots of comments on it, though admittedly many of these have to do with The Kissing Bandit.


----------



## Rel (Apr 15, 2005)

Djeta Thernadier said:
			
		

>




Don't worry, Djeta.  I'm not stalkin' you or nothin'.

I'm one of those guys who is fortunate enough to see beauty in most women.  I guess I just think that women are beautiful and I tend to see their best features and overlook any imperfections.

Since I mostly know you through your posts and the personality reflected in them, I'd have to say that's among your more attractive features.

Plus I love your hair.


----------



## yennico (Apr 15, 2005)

Nifelhein said:
			
		

> I haven't been much aroudn to, but didn't Djeta had a bf or husband around here too? Isn't Buttercup a girl too?



Yes. 

Here is a thread about enworld women.


----------



## yennico (Apr 15, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> Plus, Djeta is hawt.



Please excuse my question: What does "hawt" mean?


----------



## Desdichado (Apr 15, 2005)

hot; i.e., smoking.   In other words, "really good looking."


----------



## Djeta Thernadier (Apr 15, 2005)

dungeon blaster said:
			
		

> You aren't admitting anything, you are just bragging.




No. She's not. 

People stereotype based upon how you look. No matter HOW you look. There are certain stereotypes for all kinds of appearances. Not all of them are bad, not all of them are good and a lot of times none of them are true. 

I once had someone say to me "You play Dungeons and Dragons? Oh my god you look so normal".


----------



## Djeta Thernadier (Apr 15, 2005)

One last thing.

I really think this stuff all changes as gamers age and mature. I haven't met that many mature adults (not to say there are no some immature adults...) who care if you're a guy or a gal or if you look like a supermodel vs. if you look like a superdork. Mature adults just want to know how good you can play and are not as swayed by stereotypes.

Okay...back to planning my vacation I go.


----------



## Belen (Apr 15, 2005)

Djeta Thernadier said:
			
		

>




Glad to see you back.  Just wanted to say that, yes, Rel is just as creepy in person.   

Or one of the most normal, affable people you could meet.  Also, a very good father than has no reservations about introducing gaming to his daughter.


----------



## Desdichado (Apr 15, 2005)

Djeta Thernadier said:
			
		

> I really think this stuff all changes as gamers age and mature. I haven't met that many mature adults (not to say there are no some immature adults...) who care if you're a guy or a gal or if you look like a supermodel vs. if you look like a superdork. Mature adults just want to know how good you can play and are not as swayed by stereotypes.



Not to fan the flames, but if you look like either a superdork there's probably more to it than just that you look silly.  A purposefully slovenly appearance is often accompanied with other personality problems as well.  Carrying your stereotypes too far is obviously a bad idea, but I don't think there's much to be gained by claiming that there's _no_ correlation between uber-dork appearance and also being the kind of person that most don't want to hang out with.


			
				Djeta said:
			
		

> Okay...back to planning my vacation I go.



Have fun.  We just got back from DisneyWorld ourselves.  Might upload some pictures to our webshots gallery for anyone interested later.


----------



## Belen (Apr 15, 2005)

Djeta Thernadier said:
			
		

> One last thing.
> 
> I really think this stuff all changes as gamers age and mature. I haven't met that many mature adults (not to say there are no some immature adults...) who care if you're a guy or a gal or if you look like a supermodel vs. if you look like a superdork. Mature adults just want to know how good you can play and are not as swayed by stereotypes.
> 
> Okay...back to planning my vacation I go.




Agreed.  Most peopel change as they get older, more mature, and more confident in who they are.  Gaming was far more a social stigma for me when I was 16-22, then it is now when I am 28.  Gaming and geek culture are a part of who I am, so I see no stigma these days.  And I usually dress better than the gamer stereotype, even when gaming.

Have fun at Disney!  I am hoping that my wife and I will be able to go in February.


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## Djeta Thernadier (Apr 15, 2005)

Thank you Rel. 

Thank you all for the welcome back too.  I miss being on these boards. We've gone to DisneyWorld 3 times in the last 15 months (Yay for annual passes) and I've been snatched away by the vacation planning sites...   (along with the fact that I can not for the life of me log on from home...  )




			
				Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> Not to fan the flames, but if you look like either a superdork there's probably more to it than just that you look silly.  A purposefully slovenly appearance is often accompanied with other personality problems as well.  Carrying your stereotypes too far is obviously a bad idea, but I don't think there's much to be gained by claiming that there's _no_ correlation between uber-dork appearance and also being the kind of person that most don't want to hang out with. Have fun.  We just got back from DisneyWorld ourselves.  Might upload some pictures to our webshots gallery for anyone interested later.




Joshua Dyal - You are probably right but in some cases, I think people go for a certain appearance with the way they dress, talk etc. If you saw a guy walking down the street in a leather outfit with a dyed green mohawk, but then you started talking to him and found out he was an investment banker who enjoyed golf and polo you might be surprised. That's what I was trying to say. Maybe saying "someone who looks like a dork" was not the correct word choice.  

(and not to get too OT but I'd love to see your pictures!)

Okay. I'm REALLY signing off for now. It's my last day at my old job and I have sooo much stuff to do and a trip to plan. Hopefully, the chaotic evil goblins who prevent me from logging on at home will be banished one day, and I'll be on more.  Nice "seeing" you all again! ::waves and ducks out::


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## Gentlegamer (Apr 15, 2005)

Sarajaine"The Solar" said:
			
		

> Thank you...I wish that for us too  To anyone on this thread who wishes to leave talks of appearence behind I would welcome any fantasy girl names for the baby, I like elven names as they are softer although they tend to be long too.  Any input would be great



I have a suggestion on this account:  _Elanor_ . . .


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## Gentlegamer (Apr 15, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> Well, yeah.  How can you play D&D without a "sword?"



Yeah, it is a requirement to be able to wield a "bastard" sword . . .


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## Nifelhein (Apr 15, 2005)

MojoGM said:
			
		

> *raises hand* Yup, the bf would be me. I'm still here, still reading all the threads but rarely posting (and rarely remembering to log in even).






			
				Djeta Thernadier said:
			
		

> I'm here. ::waves::




See, i knew they would be somewhere around here! Nice seeing you back, hope the dwarves in your pc get the goblins and free your connection for EnWorld. 



			
				Vraille Darkfang said:
			
		

> I KNOW I've been wondering what Crothian & Piratecat would look like in a nice Brazilian cut G-String.




Don't. i am a Brazilian and I can say you would really have much betetr thigns to think about...



			
				Djeta Thernadier said:
			
		

> I once had someone say to me "You play Dungeons and Dragons? Oh my god you look so normal".




I hear that a lot myself and I am male, just that i am not the nerdy looking guy and rpgs are usually seen as their domain. In addition I do think maturity and looks are somewhat tied to how people react to women in rpgs, yes, but I do think that male tend to change their attitude with woman in the table, most man I know chage just by seeing one.


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## Vraille Darkfang (Apr 15, 2005)

Nifelhein said:
			
		

> Don't. i am a Brazilian and I can say you would really have much betetr *thigns *  to think about...




Did you mean to say THINGS? or THIGHS?  (Those servers can get pretty heavy, and if Piratecat's been lifting with his legs like your supposed too......)

Am I the only one starting to feel bad they've never heard "Oh, you're a gamer, but you look so normal!"

Later,


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## Mrbunny (Apr 15, 2005)

Me and Scratched_back have a saying about "smelling our own" *nothing to do with games smelling*.  After years of working in a role play shop were you do nothing all day long apart from the odd bit of putting stock out and chat to other games about anything and everything, we felt we had gained a almost second sight into spotting games.  I think everyone has done it at some point, you have looked and judge on appearance alone...those who say they haven't ain't being truthful now are they?
Hell nearly everyone here plays d&d (well apart from sj who i know smells and no one really want to let play j/k) and that is a game were everything is judge on stereotypes, ever spell you fire, ever monster you run in and slay is based not on what you have learn from a lovely friendly chat...

Pc:"hows the spawn of evil you give birth to hag?"

Evil wart filled hag: "Oh only today its started its first plot to steal and eat all the kids in the next town over."

Pc:"Ok now i'll kill you since you have fallen into the stereotype i thought you would."

Really it would go like this in d&d...
Pc: "look a hag...CHARGE!"

Anyway back to what i was really saying...
I don't think games have a look but i think you can spot them if you chat with them.
I've never gone out with a girl who was into gaming, My ex of 3 years never asked a single thing about it in all the time we were seeing each other.  She just knew that one nite a week i would spend doing prep work and that Sunday she could do what the hell she want as long as i didn't have to be there. 
I think she really liked the fact that her b/f idea of fun was sitting round with a bunch of other guys, rolling dice and basically repelling women.  I know a lot of the guys on this thread don't think this is the case and your right.  Been a geek doesn't repel women its a stereotype but i still think role playing is a very male thing.


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## Nifelhein (Apr 15, 2005)

hey Vraille! In fact i intended to write things, but since you pointed... thighs can do too. 

And Bunny, Mr., I do think the problem with msot games is that people see things through a lot of stereotypes, the hag charge thing applies for msot things not clearly good and friendly in a game.

Personally I make my games be based on description and intereation, there are no alignment tempaltes and stereotypes to follow too, hate them, but sure characetr in the game judge by stereotypes, but if anyone sees a hag in my game their reaction will usualy be: What the Heck! RUN!

I agree geek repelling woman is  astereotype, but the fact that most geeks have problems in getting to dates and the like is something I have been into for sometime, while I could be considered a true geek, right now I am about 26.42998% or a Total Geek, according to this test.

In general I think bringing a woman to a table without teeling everyone that the new player is actually a woman is going to see some surprise. not because she is a girl and play, but mostly because we haven't played much with girls, although i know quite a lot that do, but they have their groups already.


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## Belen (Apr 15, 2005)

Mrbunny said:
			
		

> I think she really liked the fact that her b/f idea of fun was sitting round with a bunch of other guys, rolling dice and basically repelling women.  I know a lot of the guys on this thread don't think this is the case and your right.  Been a geek doesn't repel women its a stereotype but i still think role playing is a very male thing.




Hmm...50% on my groups are now female.  I think the number is climbing, especially if you look at the WOTC boards, which have a lot more women than ENWorld.  Role playing is not a male thing.  It is just easier for men to get into it.


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## S'mon (Apr 15, 2005)

Djeta Thernadier said:
			
		

> I really think this stuff all changes as gamers age and mature. I haven't met that many mature adults (not to say there are no some immature adults...) who care if you're a guy or a gal or if you look like a supermodel vs. if you look like a superdork. Mature adults just want to know how good you can play and are not as swayed by stereotypes.




Yup - not that everyone matures, and maybe there are a higher proportion of immature adults playing D&D than in the general population (certainly there seem to be a few on ENW) but by and large by the time you hit late 20s/30s most people have got over childhood insecurities re appearance, gender et al.


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## S'mon (Apr 15, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> Not to fan the flames, but if you look like either a superdork there's probably more to it than just that you look silly.  A purposefully slovenly appearance is often accompanied with other personality problems as well.  Carrying your stereotypes too far is obviously a bad idea, but I don't think there's much to be gained by claiming that there's _no_ correlation between uber-dork appearance and also being the kind of person that most don't want to hang out with.




I'd have to agree that a Comic Store Guy appearance might be indicative of a CSG personality.  I don't think I've ever really met a real CSG though, I guess I saw a (very) few at Gencon UK the 2 times I went, but I think most of them were professional American games designers...


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## Mrbunny (Apr 15, 2005)

Nifelhein, i think the problem with gaming and girls is that most people (really here i mean guys) will have started playing in there teen years.  Well all remember how much FUN those years will have been...lets say that telling a teenage girl you like gaming when your that age is right up there with telling her the real reason you watched bay watch.  I just think it sort of carry's on, i have had girls at my table before and i guess it sort of went badly...She was a very good friend to me and one or two of the other guys we played with.  We were all cool with her play with us and there was no end of help for her when she was asking anything about the game and what she could and couldn't do, hell me and my friends have been playing 3rd since it came out and we still get rules wrong every week.  Were things went badly is with our laid back style we have a lot of joking and well piss taking...I guess its the teenage boy in us and that we have all been playing together for years.  At some point something was said by her and she got the micky taken out of her, nothing that doesn't go on at our table every single week and i guess its what just comes with us playing together for so long.  Really its all done in the best of fun and no one means anything by it but all of a sudden she started crying!  I had to stop the game and take her to one side and have a chat with her about what was wrong and explain that there was nothing meant by whatever got said.  This did make me think about how different our game would become with her playing.  She left for a China a few weeks later so it wasn't that much of a long term problem, it did change the game why she was there for those weeks after that.  The guys now would be much more careful with what they said but that almost took some of the fun out of it.


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## Rika (Apr 15, 2005)

Mrbunny said:
			
		

> I think she really liked the fact that her b/f idea of fun was sitting round with a bunch of other guys, rolling dice and basically repelling women. I know a lot of the guys on this thread don't think this is the case and your right. Been a geek doesn't repel women its a stereotype but i still think role playing is a very male thing.




  I think my husband would disagree. Now he never GMs a game without a woman anymore because of me, but he says he'd rather GM an all female group than an all male group. 

Right now we're a 50/50 group for our regular game (SWd20 btw) and 2 female players for Battletech usually weekly. Oh and once a month Marvel 50/50. The 2 player group rotates fairly regularly, we've played AD&D, 3.5, SWd20, Marvel, and Battletech. 

Our last group consisted of 3 couples so this is nothing new. 

Now that said, I met my husband in a gaming group; I was recruited by a boyfriend in H.S. and left another BF because he didn't play. Gaming is a huge part of our married life and without it we would have never met. Therefore, I think I am living proof that gaming isn't a "male thing." 

Oh and for the record I probably would have dropped any guy that told me I couldn't game or wouldn't understand it.  

Quite a bit earlier in the thread there was some mention of a baby. Congratulations! 

As for teaching or not teaching any child to game, be grateful if you can. Our son has autism; he's still young enough that we don't know if he'll ever be interested in our favorite hobby. Of all the things his diagnosis forces us to deal with the possibility of not being able to share something that we take such joy in is among the worst.


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## Nifelhein (Apr 15, 2005)

MrBunny,

That kind of difference is what i think would be good for the group and the game as a whole, she probably cried because many comments were usually very very rough and while you feel just that you were more of yourself she might have thought you were being more of a rude, mean or whatever the comments would entice.

Since studying some gender subjects and reading articles and books I have more conscience of how woman get their way into the game and how male are the dominant figures, i am thinking of representations only by the way, for example, if you look at Drows, they say its society is matriarchal and still, most references we see and pictures on 2nd edition complete drow had males on it, the 3rd edition books have man msot of the time, the occasional woman are either nearly naked with a godly appearence or are antropomorphic creatures like a sphinx, medusas and the like, this is prejudice we perpetrate.

Woman are not only a part of the players, they are mostly not a part of the game itself, the represenations, and we don't event think about it. this does not mean we are all sexist, but that we do roll on with the idea that woman can't be strong, that woman are fragile and the like, by short we make rpgs a world full of man and woman wearing magical bikinis for +13 armor bonus, roghly equivalent to a +5 full plate, most drawings you see on the rpg books and market support this way too.

Right now I am working with soem friends into making an RPG organization untied to government that will focus both on the potential of rpg a a tool for learning and also, in its side as a game, we will want to have people to know how the patterns they make into the game usually reinforce some kind of atitude and how they need to have a knowledge of that to change it, even if little.

A friend of mine has gone as far as making we roll for sexuality and sex when we make a character, one friend who joined his game last week is now a bisexual male iaido style fighter. This will be interestig because he is mostly homophobic an besides, we make it clear that this is where he has a chance of leaving prejudices and learn that beign different is not being unnatural or freaky, it is just being oneself.

That said, this is in an all straight group made out of males, but we sure are not eh standard when it comes to how we think about prejudices and we try to take them out of the game, our talk, and our lives.

Sicne I wandered into a gender, feminism and chauvinism problem, feel free not to answer, I don't want to make a flame war of this, but I do think D&D as a whole is a man's game simply because it is a chauvinist game more often than not. Sorry if this became a sexist post,  still lvoe D&D.


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## Desdichado (Apr 15, 2005)

Indeed, congratulations on the incoming kiddo.  I'm guessing that if you're five months pregnant, that bikini pic is not recent.   

Luckily, I've had some success with my two older kids and an impromptu Star Wars game using The Window pretty much as my system.  I don't know if they'll be "lifestyle gamers" like me, but at least they'll have a few fond memories of gaming in general.

Oh, and like Mystery Man, I second the call for a bit more information on James Heard's D&D game with strippers...


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## Elf Witch (Apr 15, 2005)

Djeta Thernadier said:
			
		

> Joshua Dyal - You are probably right but in some cases, I think people go for a certain appearance with the way they dress, talk etc. If you saw a guy walking down the street in a leather outfit with a dyed green mohawk, but then you started talking to him and found out he was an investment banker who enjoyed golf and polo you might be surprised. That's what I was trying to say. Maybe saying "someone who looks like a dork" was not the correct word choice.
> 
> (and not to get too OT but I'd love to see your pictures!)
> 
> ::




But this is kind of a myth. No bank would hire a person with a mohawk. Just like if you have an eye brow piercing blockbuster video expects you to either take it out or cover it with a band aid when you work. 

The sterotypical gamer is someone who is fat does not bathe wears tacky clothes and lives in his parents basement. Female gamers are all fat don't care how they look or are they are fluff heads who play elven princess with unicorns.

The guys I game with don't fit this at all some have been over weight but some are really in great shape. Most of the guys are married, some have kids, they have good jobs . I know feamle gamers who are thin and slobs. Overweight and slobs. And I know gamergirls who are fat and take care of themselves and girls who are thin and beautiful.

Yet everyone of these guys I play with can be dorky and geeky and most were when they were younger. They grew up and learned how to fit into society without giving up what they love. 

When I see gamers who are in the mid 20s who fit the sterotype I have to wonder why. Is it a  psychological problem that stops them from being able to fit into mainstream society or is that they don't want to. Is it a badge of honor they wear. Society didn't let them fit in when they were teen agers so why should they bother to try and fit in now, It is the principle that counts.

I used to have arguments with my son when he was younger over getting piercings and tattos how they could hurt him in the future getting good jobs and his answer was well that is not fair it should not matter if he can do the job better than anyone else. But it does matter. 

I guess what I have been trying to say is that how you present yourself is how people are going to take you.


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## MojoGM (Apr 15, 2005)

Elf Witch said:
			
		

> But this is kind of a myth. No bank would hire a person with a mohawk. Just like if you have an eye brow piercing blockbuster video expects you to either take it out or cover it with a band aid when you work.




Of course, you could have a banker who already has the job but dresses in leather, piercings, and spiked hair on the weekends.

You wouldn't expect him to be a banker, but there you are...


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## Elf Witch (Apr 15, 2005)

MojoGM said:
			
		

> Of course, you could have a banker who already has the job but dresses in leather, piercings, and spiked hair on the weekends.
> 
> You wouldn't expect him to be a banker, but there you are...




Okay you got me there but it would have to be something that he could cover up for work. And the point is he still making the choice to fit into mainstream society. 

You can still be a geek and have all the geek hobbies and still use soap and water everyday and have conversations with non geeks.


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Apr 15, 2005)

So - I haven't read all 7 pages of this thread... but - thought I'd throw in my 2 coppers.

My experience as a woman gamer has been as such: Don't make a big deal about being a woman, and those that play with you will follow - no matter how attractive you are.


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## MojoGM (Apr 15, 2005)

Elf Witch said:
			
		

> Okay you got me there but it would have to be something that he could cover up for work. And the point is he still making the choice to fit into mainstream society.
> 
> You can still be a geek and have all the geek hobbies and still use soap and water everyday and have conversations with non geeks.




I wonder how a large bank or investment firm would react if an employee suddenly came in with a leather coat over his suit, piercings, and a mohawk?


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## John Morrow (Apr 15, 2005)

Elf Witch said:
			
		

> You can still be a geek and have all the geek hobbies and still use soap and water everyday and have conversations with non geeks.




Attention geeks who are clueless about personal hygiene!  If you are an adult, assume that you need to bathe _at least_ once per day or you will not smell good to other people.  No, you can't smell how badly you smell to others.  No, just because you could get away with a bath every few days as a child does not mean you can get away with the same thing as an adult.  And, no, just because people aren't saying something to your face does not mean that they don't talk behind your back or are OK with your body odor.

(Yes, I know there are some exceptions and diet also seems to play a role but I think it's better to be safe than sorry.  Yes, I know that many gamers don't stink but given what I've run into in game stores and conventions, too many do.  And this isn't just an American problem but some sort of strange international geek/otaku problem.  The only Japanese person that I ever ran into with body odor in Japan was in an anime shop in Akihabara.)


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## Elf Witch (Apr 15, 2005)

MojoGM said:
			
		

> I wonder how a large bank or investment firm would react if an employee suddenly came in with a leather coat over his suit, piercings, and a mohawk?




LOL They would wonder if he was having some kind of break down if he was say in his mid 30 if he was in his mid 40 they would just chalk it up to a mid life crisis.


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## I'm A Banana (Apr 15, 2005)

> You can still be a geek and have all the geek hobbies and still use soap and water everyday and have conversations with non geeks.




Another tr00f statement in this thread. 

Also, as far as appearances go, it's more about looking professional than forbidding certain things. If you can don a suit and wear a mohawk and give the impression that you're the kind of guy that the most extreme stodgy old stick-in-the-mud man would absolutely trust with his money, you're fine. Mohawks....generally....don't do that.

Same is true for walking out in public, or hitting on the hotties, or whatever. Gaming is not a lifestyle choice -- it's a hobby. Just because you play poker doesn't mean you have to look like you could be transplanted to the Old West, and just because you roll around d20's doesn't mean you have to smell like cat piss, and just because you are a talented investment banker doesn't mean you can't have a mohawk.


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Apr 15, 2005)

Sarajaine"The Solar" said:
			
		

> I hate to start somekind of feminist rebellion its just a shame that we don't get the same acceptance.




I'd say that statement speaks worlds for the people you play with and less and less for the general community of gamers.  

Come to GenCon, Sarajaaine... you will quickly learn that women gamers are less rare than you think... and that most gamer men are totally capable of accepting women as an equal part of their gaming group.


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## Sarajaine"The Solar" (Apr 15, 2005)

Mrbunny said:
			
		

> (well apart from sj who i know smells and no one really want to let play j/k)



 And to think I had you labeled as such a nice boy,how wrong I was.


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## Sarajaine"The Solar" (Apr 15, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> Indeed, congratulations on the incoming kiddo. I'm guessing that if you're five months pregnant, that bikini pic is not recent.



Thank you very much. Nah I wish Its was recent! It was taken just before xmas. I look the same otherwise apart from a giant bump of course


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## Sarajaine"The Solar" (Apr 15, 2005)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> I'd say that statement speaks worlds for the people you play with and less and less for the general community of gamers.
> 
> Come to GenCon, Sarajaaine... you will quickly learn that women gamers are less rare than you think... and that most gamer men are totally capable of accepting women as an equal part of their gaming group.



 I don't label the gaming world as a whole for my slightly negative experience. This thread has shown a large majority of men to be very open to women players. I have noticed that the gamers on this site are predominantly from the US and the whole RPG industry and gamers are huge in comparison to here in the UK. This would probably explain as to why there is more exceptance over there due to the fact there are a lot more female players. I will take your advice and definatly visit GenCon thanks


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## Nifelhein (Apr 15, 2005)

Anyway, since I have not said before, congratulations on the coming girl Scratched and Solar, I hope many barbarians and fighters tales will be told of her characters! 

By the way, nice to se myself quoted, makes me feel even more into the ENWorld family. 

Rika, I wish you well with your boy, I can imagine how hard it must be, but i know there i aso great sense of acomplishment. I have a friend who has been in a wheel chair since he was born, when he walked using that thing old people usually use when they have a hard time walking alone, the metal one with wheels on it, I cried like a baby... it was when we finished high school, at the ceremony held for parents and studeents wit that batman cloth an all... I know how hard it was fo him to get there.

As for names, i have a thread link for elven names somewhere, if Angcuru is stilla round you may get a tolkien elveish name by giving him what meaning you want it to have. 

Either this one or this one.


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## S'mon (Apr 15, 2005)

Sarajaine"The Solar" said:
			
		

> I don't label the gaming world as a whole for my slightly negative experience. This thread has shown a large majority of men to be very open to women players. I have noticed that the gamers on this site are predominantly from the US and the whole RPG industry and gamers are huge in comparison to here in the UK. This would probably explain as to why there is more exceptance over there due to the fact there are a lot more female players. I will take your advice and definatly visit GenCon thanks




Hi Sarajaine - I really don't think there's a general lack of acceptance of female gamers in the UK.   Maybe in Middlesborough.  

Although some may see me as an oppressive male patriarchalist (I'm looking at you Goblyns Hoard)  I've never had any problem with female players & GMs, and I think the vast majority of male UK gamers are the same.  Some groups have a guys-only thing, and I guess maybe the group I GM'd in school might not have been very accepting to girls, but from University age up I think that's pretty rare.


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## dungeon blaster (Apr 15, 2005)

Djeta Thernadier said:
			
		

> No. She's not.
> 
> People stereotype based upon how you look. No matter HOW you look. There are certain stereotypes for all kinds of appearances. Not all of them are bad, not all of them are good and a lot of times none of them are true.
> 
> I once had someone say to me "You play Dungeons and Dragons? Oh my god you look so normal".




Yeah, she is.

As  I stated before, I'm aware that there are stereotypes, but there are several different ways of addressing those stereotypes without bragging.  "my appearance doesn't fit the gamer girl stereotype" is one way of saying it.  Another way would be "I'm not unattractive".  Comparing yourself to a cheerleader and calling attention to your looks several times in one post IS bragging (especially if you post a pic of yourself in a bikini). People brag, it makes them feel good, and it's not a huge deal.  I'm sorry I made it one.

BTW, if SJ wants to use an elven name, she could try the encyclopedia of arda (just google it).  Just don't forget that the kid has to live with the name until she's 18 (poor, poor Moonunit).


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## Sarajaine"The Solar" (Apr 15, 2005)

S'mon said:
			
		

> Hi Sarajaine - I really don't think there's a general lack of acceptance of female gamers in the UK. Maybe in Middlesborough.
> 
> Although some may see me as an oppressive male patriarchalist (I'm looking at you Goblyns Hoard)  I've never had any problem with female players & GMs, and I think the vast majority of male UK gamers are the same. Some groups have a guys-only thing, and I guess maybe the group I GM'd in school might not have been very accepting to girls, but from University age up I think that's pretty rare.



It's not the lack of acceptance I men't but more so a lack of female players in my area. I have not explored this aspect in great detail tho and I'm sure given the time I will find some.


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## Desdichado (Apr 15, 2005)

So, you're saying that if I post this picture of myself, I'm bragging?


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## Crothian (Apr 15, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> So, you're saying that if I post this picture of myself, I'm bragging?





it's said that everyone has someone in the world that looks exactly like them...I have found mine.....


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Apr 15, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> So, you're saying that if I post this picture of myself, I'm bragging?



 **sarcasm**

Oh my gosh, JD!  You're SO GOOD LOOKING!  I can't believe you play dungeons and dragons!  That TOTALLY blows my mind!!!

*rolls eyes*


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## Desdichado (Apr 15, 2005)




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## dungeon blaster (Apr 15, 2005)

No... but I do wonder why you have that picture


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## Desdichado (Apr 15, 2005)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> **sarcasm**
> 
> Oh my gosh, JD!  You're SO GOOD LOOKING!  I can't believe you play dungeons and dragons!  That TOTALLY blows my mind!!!
> 
> *rolls eyes*



Yeah, I get that a lot.




I mean the rolleyes thingy...


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## Desdichado (Apr 15, 2005)

dungeon blaster said:
			
		

> No... but I do wonder why you have that picture



Well, I googled it just to post here, of course!


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Apr 15, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> Well, I googled it just to post here, of course!



 He lies... it's actually the background on his computer.


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## Crothian (Apr 15, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> Well, I googled it just to post here, of course!




so you are saying it's * not * on your desktop??


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## Crothian (Apr 15, 2005)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> He lies... it's actually the background on his computer.




we had the same idea there, that's scarey....


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## dungeon blaster (Apr 15, 2005)

Or worse... a scan of the poster hanging over his bed....


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Apr 15, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> so you are saying it's * not * on your desktop??



 ... that was really weird.  Stop stealing my thoughts, Crothian!


----------



## dungeon blaster (Apr 15, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> Well, yeah.  How can you play D&D without a "sword?"




It's generally not as effective, but you could always use a "mancatcher"


----------



## Crothian (Apr 15, 2005)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> ... that was really weird.  Stop stealing my thoughts, Crothian!




Stealing your thoughts??  Get out of my head!!!!


----------



## Sarajaine"The Solar" (Apr 15, 2005)

dungeon blaster said:
			
		

> Yeah, she is.
> 
> As I stated before, I'm aware that there are stereotypes, but there are several different ways of addressing those stereotypes without bragging. "my appearance doesn't fit the gamer girl stereotype" is one way of saying it. Another way would be "I'm not unattractive". Comparing yourself to a cheerleader and calling attention to your looks several times in one post IS bragging (especially if you post a pic of yourself in a bikini). People brag, it makes them feel good, and it's not a huge deal. I'm sorry I made it one.
> 
> BTW, if SJ wants to use an elven name, she could try the encyclopedia of arda (just google it). Just don't forget that the kid has to live with the name until she's 18 (poor, poor Moonunit).



Please can you get off this subject!! I certainly did not say that gamer chicks were un-attractive and the way you would assume Im that narcissistic bugs me considering you know nothing about me! I have met one girl in particular my bf knows who has gamed once before and she is perfectly pretty but she looks however to fit in with my boyfriends crowd more so than i would. Regarding the boring on going subject of the dreaded bikini.. it was merely a joke after someone refered to seeing me in a chain mail one. If you knew me at all you would know I dont happen to think I'm the next playboy model, I just like dnd. Djeta gets my point and you clearly don't. I believe it was yourself who made what I look like an issue on this thread not me!


----------



## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Apr 15, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> Stealing your thoughts??  Get out of my head!!!!



 I posted first.  You are totally a stealer of thoughts!  And a slow poster!  So HA!


----------



## Psion (Apr 15, 2005)

Sarajaine"The Solar" said:
			
		

> I have noticed that the gamers on this site are predominantly from the US and the whole RPG industry and gamers are huge in comparison to here in the UK. This would probably explain as to why there is more exceptance over there due to the fact there are a lot more female players.




The US is quite heterogenous on the matter. In some places, groups with half or more female players are not uncommon. In other places, the idea of a female gamer existing is considered to be somewhere in the likelihood of an honest politician or a jackalope.


----------



## Crothian (Apr 15, 2005)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> I posted first.  You are totally a stealer of thoughts!  And a slow poster!  So HA!




You stole it and then hurried yoiur post.  I took my time and got the words right and written.


----------



## Nifelhein (Apr 15, 2005)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> And a slow poster!  So HA!




We can't seem to be thinkin gof the same poster...


----------



## dungeon blaster (Apr 15, 2005)

Sarajaine"The Solar" said:
			
		

> Please can you get off this subject!! I certainly did not say that gamer chicks were un-attractive




???  Okay.



> and the way you would assume Im that narcissistic bugs me considering you know nothing about me!




All I know about you is from what I read. Therefore, all my opinions are based on how I interpret your posts. I already mentioned that I could very well be wrong, but I'm not going to believe I'm wrong just because you say I am. I'm also not saying you are any more narcissistic than the average person.



> If you knew me at all you would know I dont happen to think I'm the next playboy model, I just like dnd.




I never thought that.



> Djeta gets my point and you clearly don't. I believe it was yourself who made what I look like an issue on this thread not me!




I do get your point, and I think it is a valid one. But, I believe that you weren't just making a point. Yes, I did make it an issue, and I regret that. Since you have asked me to stop posting on this particular subject, I will gladly do that. Let's just leave that topic completely behind and move on to more interesting discussions.


----------



## Hijinks (Apr 15, 2005)

> Immaturity is a turnoff for most potential girlfriends, employers and colleagues and therefore activities that correlate to immaturity are concealed from these people




First time posting .. hey there hi there ... new to the boards, also female, getting back into dnd after a long time away. Finally found a gaming group in my area *\o/*

Anyway I have to disagree, in part, with the above statement. I got my current job partly because, at the time, I was seriously into EverQuest on the pc. The supervisor who interviewed me knew a bit about the game and knew it meant a lot of multitasking and logic, not to mention patience, teamwork, and the ability to set goals and reach them. My current supervisor thinks playing dnd is sweet, even if he doesn't do it himself; he's always asking me questions about it. So either my insurance company is really liberal (unlikely - it's insurance), or attitudes are changing about gaming.


----------



## Scratched_back (Apr 15, 2005)

Nifelhein said:
			
		

> Anyway, since I have not said before, congratulations on the coming girl Scratched and Solar, I hope many barbarians and fighters tales will be told of her characters!
> 
> By the way, nice to se myself quoted, makes me feel even more into the ENWorld family.




Hey no problem mate, any time I see something I like, I believe in giving credit!

Also, thanks for the links, we're looking into them now. Elven child names. We already have a cat called simply "Elf."


----------



## Scratched_back (Apr 15, 2005)

Hijinks said:
			
		

> First time posting .. hey there hi there ... new to the boards, also female, getting back into dnd after a long time away. Finally found a gaming group in my area *\o/*
> 
> Anyway I have to disagree, in part, with the above statement. I got my current job partly because, at the time, I was seriously into EverQuest on the pc. The supervisor who interviewed me knew a bit about the game and knew it meant a lot of multitasking and logic, not to mention patience, teamwork, and the ability to set goals and reach them. My current supervisor thinks playing dnd is sweet, even if he doesn't do it himself; he's always asking me questions about it. So either my insurance company is really liberal (unlikely - it's insurance), or attitudes are changing about gaming.




Did he also know that most EQ players would sell their own mothers for good gear, skive from work to go on raids and scream blue murder at the screen when witnessing a ninja looter first hand?


----------



## DaveMage (Apr 15, 2005)

Ok, I've just read through all 8 pages of this thread and there is something that concerns me greatly...




			
				Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> Have fun.  We just got back from DisneyWorld ourselves.





They let YOU into MY state?

I'm gonna have to speak with the border guard about this....


----------



## Thanee (Apr 15, 2005)

Psion said:
			
		

> an honest politician




Hey, there are honest politicians, they are just not very successful. 

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Hijinks (Apr 15, 2005)

DaveMage said:
			
		

> Did he also know that most EQ players would sell their own mothers for good gear, skive from work to go on raids and scream blue murder at the screen when witnessing a ninja looter first hand?




Well, no, I left that part out of my interview :þ

I've only taken days off for gaming reasons three or four times in my life ... I think I'm pretty darn responsible!  *whistles innocently*


----------



## Thanee (Apr 15, 2005)

Hijinks said:
			
		

> Anyway I have to disagree, in part, with the above statement. I got my current job partly because, at the time, I was seriously into EverQuest on the pc. The supervisor who interviewed me knew a bit about the game and knew it meant a lot of multitasking and logic, not to mention patience, teamwork, and the ability to set goals and reach them. My current supervisor thinks playing dnd is sweet, even if he doesn't do it himself; he's always asking me questions about it. So either my insurance company is really liberal (unlikely - it's insurance), or attitudes are changing about gaming.




That's pretty cool, I hear a lot of people do not mention their "geeky hobbies" when applying for a job, since they have this bad reputation and they do not want to lower their chances because of that. Kinda sad, actually, since as you say, these hobbies train quite a few rather useful abilities, too.

Bye
Thanee


----------



## ThirdWizard (Apr 15, 2005)

Thanee said:
			
		

> That's pretty cool, I hear a lot of people do not mention their "geeky hobbies" when applying for a job, since they have this bad reputation and they do not want to lower their chances because of that. Kinda sad, actually, since as you say, these hobbies train quite a few rather useful abilities, too.




Once someone noticed my email address and figured out that I like D&D. Her husband played, so it was a plus! But they still didn't hire me, they hired internally. Or maybe she didn't like her husband. 


EDIT: By the way, as for the origional post, I got over it years ago. Good to see a new person on the boars, though.


----------



## Henry (Apr 15, 2005)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> ... that was really weird.  Stop stealing my thoughts, Crothian!




QueenD, you now know Crothian's true secret... He is a secret ENWorld invention, an AI with a thought-reading apparatus attached, which reads minds and then posts random contents of these minds. We've been developing it for the military for years, but now that you've blown the secret, we'll have to activate the embedded bombs, destroy him, dismantle the deflector arrays, fill in the installation with concrete, salt the earth, cover up the paperwork, find a new Crothian to brainwash and put in place, and THEN release it on the Internet in a joke post, to make it look laughable and non-credible. 


*I HOPE YOU'RE HAPPY!*


----------



## Lasher Dragon (Apr 15, 2005)

Hijinks said:
			
		

> Well, no, I left that part out of my interview :þ
> 
> I've only taken days off for gaming reasons three or four times in my life ... I think I'm pretty darn responsible!  *whistles innocently*




LOL I was sooooo close to calling in sick today to get in on the Guild Wars preview event going on _right now_. My friends that are playing it keep taunting me.


----------



## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Apr 15, 2005)

Henry said:
			
		

> *I HOPE YOU'RE HAPPY!*




I _am_ happy.  Very happy.  It has been my mission for years to thwart the development of this technology.  Now that I am on to your plan, its destruction is inevitable!


----------



## Malic (Apr 15, 2005)

Sarajaine"The Solar" said:
			
		

> I have noticed that the gamers on this site are predominantly from the US and the whole RPG industry and gamers are huge in comparison to here in the UK. This would probably explain as to why there is more exceptance over there due to the fact there are a lot more female players.




Hi there Sarajaine, I really don't think the size of the industry makes much difference. I've never encountered any anti-girl bias here in Australia, and our gaming sector isn't exactly huge. Of course I did not play until Uni, so perhaps that has something to do with it (school groups might have more problems).

Good luck finding an accepting group.
{Edit: on reading more of thread} Or not, if you don't really want to.

PS. Is cheerleading a big thing in the UK? I mean, the pro teams in some the big sports have them here, but I would be suprised if 'being into cheerleading' was on the radar as a stereotype in Oz - except in American college movies  Just curious about the choice of words ...

Cheers!


----------



## Taren Nighteyes (Apr 15, 2005)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> I _am_ happy.  Very happy.  It has been my mission for years to thwart the development of this technology.  Now that I am on to your plan, its destruction is inevitable!




*Cue evil laugh*


----------



## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Apr 15, 2005)

Taren Nighteyes said:
			
		

> *Cue evil laugh*



 The evil laugh is implied at the end of all my posts.  

'Tis the nature of ruling a nation of Dopplegangers with an iron fist.


----------



## Altalazar (Apr 15, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> For a second there I read that as I am woman, here me roar.
> 
> Anyway, what does "near Detroit" mean?  We game mostly in Canton, with players from White Lake, West Bloomfield and Dearborn.  We're always on the lookout to at least meet folks in the area who game.




I'm up in the Lansing area.  

And there are more female gamers than there used to be.  My wife is pregnant now - and it looks like it will be a girl - and if I have anything to say about it, she'll be a gamer...


----------



## Elf Witch (Apr 15, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> So, you're saying that if I post this picture of myself, I'm bragging?




That is not bragging. That is just being kind to us female gamers and giving us some nice eye candy to look at for a change. Thank you so much.


----------



## Vonlok The Bold (Apr 16, 2005)

I love this thread because I'm imagining a group of gamers mocking a girl interested in D&D and how that would go.

_GIRLFRIEND enters  the room and approaches a group of male gamers_ 

GIRLFRIEND: Hey guys can I play?

GAMER GUY 1: You want to play D&D?

_All the guy gamers explode into loud uproarious laughter_ 

GAMER GUY 2: (mockingly)Did you hear that? Imagine a girl rolling a D20!!?

GAMER GUY 3: You better stick to the traditional six sided, doll.  Go play some Yahtzee.  You're liable to hurt yourself on anything more than a decahedron.

BOYFRIEND: Dames, you can't live with them... You can't polymorph them into a bag of holding.

GAMER GUY 2: (winking at the other male gamers) Let's let her practice with a D12, go ahead and roll it, toots, let's see what happens.

_GIRLFRIEND rolls the d12.  It comes up a 9_ 

GIRLFRIEND: A '9'.  That's not too bad.

GAMER GUY 1: A '9'.  That's the number of Druid influenced snow storms in hell there would have to be before I ever game with a skirt.

_More uproarious laughter from the male gamers._ 

GAMER GUY 2: You can play but you have to roleplay a housewife, teacher, or a nurse.

_GAMER GUY 3 gives GAMER GUY 2 an enthusiastic high-five_ 

GIRLFRIEND: I was actually thinking of playing a dwarven cleric.  I really know my stuff guys.

GAMER GUY 1: I would let you play but I'm the DM, and I already have one dwarf named Gloria Steinem in my game.  Greyhawk isn't big enough for two of them.  Go burn a chainmail bra somewhere else ok.  We have to get back to our game...


----------



## Nathal (Apr 16, 2005)

Sarajaine"The Solar" said:
			
		

> I'm currently 5 months pregnant with our 1st daughter. My partner really wanted a boy so he could bring him up on all things dnd and even have a father and son gaming tag team going on. when we found out we were having a girl he was slightly dissapointed that this was no longer the case. I suggested that he could still bring her up to be a great gamer but he lacked enthusiasm....so I plan to instead!




You better convince him to play with you and stop listening to his stupid friends, because if life goes the way it has for most parents, his gaming group won't last. I refuse to play any D&D without my wife, because it's some of the only social life we have, and whereever we move I have to find new players. If those players think girls are "icky" or something, they can go pound sand. Any man who loves gaming and is lucky enough to have a girlfriend/wife who also loves to play is very lucky. Common interest of that sort is hard to come by.


----------



## ssampier (Apr 16, 2005)

I must be incredibly naive, but I don't see the big gender "hub-bub". I don't really much of a game difference between the male and female gamers.

That said, I don't have much experience playing with females. A played a session with a girlfriend of one of the gamers. She was new to the game, so she was a bit nervous, but she played as well as the male noobs. Her son didn't help matters, though 

I personally would like a find a lady that doesn't mind a guy that watches Star Wars and Lord of the Rings. Most women I know don't get it...


----------



## Desdichado (Apr 16, 2005)

DaveMage said:
			
		

> They let YOU into MY state?
> 
> I'm gonna have to speak with the border guard about this....



Well, they did send me packing again fairly quickly after stripping me of a fair amount of my cash, if that's any consolation to you.


----------



## DaveMage (Apr 16, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> Well, they did send me packing again fairly quickly after stripping me of a fair amount of my cash, if that's any consolation to you.




Yeah, if you went to Disney, I have no doubt your wallet is lighter.

I love the place, but I think it costs $50 just to drive by...


----------



## fusangite (Apr 16, 2005)

This thread is about 2 hours away from just becoming the new hivemind thread.


----------



## Rel (Apr 16, 2005)

fusangite said:
			
		

> This thread is about 2 hours away from just becoming the new hivemind thread.




It had better not.  I wouldn't be caught dead in a hivemind thread! 

By the way, Hijinks, welcome to ENWorld.  If you'll go ahead and post your bikini pic then things can proceed smoothly from here.


----------



## RithTheAwakener (Apr 16, 2005)

Heres a little prospect that might work. (i decided not to read the entire thing, so forgive me if this has already been suggested).

Steal his gaming books, maybe read em and try to learn the basics of the game, maybe even teach it to yourself or get one of ur BFs friends to teach u it. If your scared of being labeled as a rookie, ask him for a chance to prove your not, after u learn the rules. Suprise him! make him see that women can play just as well...

if this sounds sporatic, it is, im not really paying attention. appolgies


----------



## Silverleaf (Apr 16, 2005)

Girls are playing D&D?!!
O tempora! o mores!


----------



## reanjr (Apr 16, 2005)

Sarajaine"The Solar" said:
			
		

> Is it just that we are the of the opposite sex or that you are afraid to let us into your world for fear we will see you at your most vulnerable and the concept of seeing you getting excited or even moved at slaying a dragon may make you lose any sexual credibility and make you less of a man.




Yes, having a woman think up an imaginary character and roll dice to slay an imaginary dragon in a weekend pastime would totally destroy my feelings of masculinity. 



> There are some women and I am most certainly one of them who think that guys who are geeks are extremely hot!




They obviously need a marketing campaign.  Is there like a geeks seeking geeks site somewhere that I don't know about?



> The point I am making is that I know from first hand experience with my boyfriend that gamers love what they do with a passion so why are you ashamed of it?




Because the media tells us to be ashamed of ourselves.  And we must listen.



> My original reason for writing this drivel was that girls seemed to get a severe mocking when it comes to having an interest in Dnd.




Really?  My general reaction is to try and make sure she's not just doing it to turn guys on.  And then I say something like, "Alright, be at [insert name here]'s around 2PM Sunday.  No, you're going, it's not up to you any more... Yes you are... I'll have someone pick you up, then... Then call in sick... OK, then next week... I don't like to be toyed with..." or something like that.



> I sit in my front room nearly every other day reading Ben's MM and pretty much every piece of literature he has on the subject. We have been together for a while now so it is not some failed attempt to impress him it is genuinely because I fine the whole subject fascinating.
> I listen to him talk for hours on the phone about encounters he has had and his party members feats and I listen in awe.




Perhaps you should find a different local gaming group to play in.  You could even start one.



> What bugs me is why whenever girls talk about DnD or claim they know someting related to it we get laughed at!
> Its like a no go area and having testosterone is your members only card.
> My boyfriend recently posted a thread about gaming and girlfriends and my interest in it and someone wisely suggested that he should let me play at one of his games and get me actively participating.
> As sweet (and naive) as this comment was, I would'nt dream of playing with a group of his friends as I would surely get laughed at, patronisingly patted on my head and may even get called "rookie" or asked to get make the drinks.




That's what rookies are for!  It's hazing!!  No, really, you should start your own game.



> I bet there are so many girls on this earth who really want to play the game and be taken seriously.




I think your world view might be a bit skewed, but it's good to be optimistic.  I don't think there are many people of ANY group that are just itching to play D&D and be taken seriously.



> I bet there are girls on this site who probably know more about gaming than some men.
> I admit that my appearance may be my down fall as I look like I would be more in tuned to the topic of cheerleading than talk of expeditions in Faerun.




Try letting yourself go.  Perhaps that will help.



> There are not many girls I now who would want to pretend to be sun elfs and slay frost giants on a monday night but I am one of them ......so there


----------



## S'mon (Apr 16, 2005)

DaveMage said:
			
		

> Ok, I've just read through all 8 pages of this thread and there is something that concerns me greatly...
> They let YOU into MY state?
> I'm gonna have to speak with the border guard about this....




The way things are going in Florida I have to wonder if DM is really joking...


----------



## S'mon (Apr 16, 2005)

reanjr said:
			
		

> I think your world view might be a bit skewed, but it's good to be optimistic.  I don't think there are many people of ANY group that are just itching to play D&D and be taken seriously.




There are certainly many would-be D&Ders who can't find a good group to play with, although these days the Internet helps a lot.  Also I think there are a fair number of girls and young women who would like to play D&D but are worried about acceptance by male D&Ders, many of these sadly end up playing Vampire or something instead.


----------



## Dirigible (Apr 16, 2005)

I'd just like to interject here and say that we on the Against the Shadow forums poached this topic for our own discussion, and we subsequently arrived at the correct answer (and in only two pages!):



			
				Song-of-Shadow said:
			
		

> I believe that girls make bad gamers because lake trout have 1/4 of a hit die.




Proof positive. QED. Thus Spake Zarathustra. I consider the issue to be at rest.


----------



## I'm A Banana (Apr 16, 2005)

> This thread is about 2 hours away from just becoming the new hivemind thread.




This thing almost *began* has a Hivemind thread.   



> It had better not. I wouldn't be caught dead in a hivemind thread!




What if we kill you, then reanimate your corpse, so you're caugh UNdead in a hivemind thread? Would that be acceptable? 

Also, sweet cuppin' cakes, do threads like this bring out the crazy in people. Back up off, lighten up, it's only a game, she's only not a stereotype (Gasp! People have dimension! World = Shattered!), and lets all go dress up like elves and roll some dice around. Sounds like fun? I'll bring the soda if you order the pizza.


----------



## Scratched_back (Apr 16, 2005)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> Also, sweet cuppin' cakes, do threads like this bring out the crazy in people. Back up off, lighten up, it's only a game, she's only not a stereotype (Gasp! People have dimension! World = Shattered!), and lets all go dress up like elves and roll some dice around. Sounds like fun? I'll bring the soda if you order the pizza.



Hehe I agree there!


----------



## Silver Moon (Apr 16, 2005)

Sarajaine"The Solar" said:
			
		

> I have noticed that the gamers on this site are predominantly from the US and the whole RPG industry and gamers are huge in comparison to here in the UK. This would probably explain as to why there is more exceptance over there due to the fact there are a lot more female players.



It's been mentioned before in this thread, but you may want to check out www.randomlingshouse.com   The site's hostess, Randomling, is from London.   The site includes a "Girl's Talk" forum for female gamers only (which one of the Admin's can give you permissions to once you register).   The whole idea of the site actually grew out of a thread that Randomling started here two-and-a-half years ago expressing similar frustrations as you have.


----------



## Jesus_marley (Apr 16, 2005)

Geez... the last game I was in all the players (and the GM) were female except me.  It was like a Bizarro world version of KotDT.


----------



## Sarajaine"The Solar" (Apr 16, 2005)

Silver Moon said:
			
		

> It's been mentioned before in this thread, but you may want to check out www.randomlingshouse.com The site's hostess, Randomling, is from London. The site includes a "Girl's Talk" forum for female gamers only (which one of the Admin's can give you permissions to once you register). The whole idea of the site actually grew out of a thread that Randomling started here two-and-a-half years ago expressing similar frustrations as you have.



Thanks I will do


----------



## Rel (Apr 16, 2005)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> What if we kill you, then reanimate your corpse, so you're caugh UNdead in a hivemind thread? Would that be acceptable?




That would be fine of course.  Just don't let me run around as a naked zombie.  I always have a tendency to take my clothes off when I'm dead.  Must be a loss of inhibitions or something.


----------



## Melkor (Apr 16, 2005)

I wish the gaming demographic was like what you see in magazine ads, the few gaming tv commercials there have been, and the "examples of play" found in several RPGs....an even mix of girls and guys. Unfortunately, it's not.

In the 18 years I have played (started when I was 11 or 12), I've pretty much kept with the same core gaming group - with a couple of players coming and going during that time. We've only had two girls that were ever interested in joining (even though we have all tried, at one point or another, to get our significant others to give it a go), and they were great players.

Travelling to various game stores on game nights, talking to people at conventions/school/work, and sharing stories with other gamers - I have just accepted that there are a lot fewer women in gaming than men. Like I said, I wish the demographics were different. Maybe then, the stereotype would change, and the attitude directed at women who DO play RPGs would change especially women that are *gasp* attractive, _and[/] who play RPGs._


----------



## tetsujin28 (Apr 17, 2005)

Sarajaine"The Solar" said:
			
		

> My original reason for writing this drivel was that girls seemed to get a severe mocking when it comes to having an interest in Dnd.



And boys don't? Seriously, I've known gamer girls since the '70s.


----------



## I'm A Banana (Apr 17, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> I always have a tendency to take my clothes off when I'm dead.




*wistles innocently*
*puts it in his sig*

BWAHAHAHAHAHAAH!



> I agree there!




SWEET! Now to walk to England from Wisconsin! I can do it! Oceans freeze like every other type of water out there, right?


----------



## Empress (Apr 18, 2005)

> I got sidetracked for a second there
> My original reason for writing this drivel was that girls seemed to get a severe mocking when it comes to having an interest in Dnd.
> I sit in my front room nearly every other day reading Ben's MM and pretty much every piece of literature he has on the subject. We have been together for a while now so it is not some failed attempt to impress him it is genuinely because I fine the whole subject fascinating.
> I listen to him talk for hours on the phone about encounters he has had and his party members feats and I listen in awe.
> ...



Sorry for barging in late, but I believe I was the one who made that suggestion. All I can say is if you stereotype your boyfriend and his friends, you can't at the same time complain about their stereotyping.
On the other hand, I can understand if you feel awkward barging into what seems like a typical boys' club. And maybe you're right, and your boyfriend's group wants to be just like that, too. Maybe they aren't interested in female players. 
The point is, there are enough groups who don't mind female players, and who don't mind relative rookies. Look for one of those. And maybe your boyfriend's group is one of those groups, without either one knowing. But you'd have to put that to the test, first.

In the end, though, I just hope you have fun and find a game. There can't be enough of us gamer girls, so any addition is welcome.


----------



## Kuld (Apr 18, 2005)

I don't know if this helps but I tried to get my wife into playing D&D. She played once and said that she had a great time. Well, that was two years ago now. Although she says that she really wants to play again, she gives me grief when I go and play with my group. She knows that she is more than welcome to play with us. Well, now  we’ll have to find a baby sitter of course.


----------



## Turanil (Apr 18, 2005)

Sarajaine"The Solar" said:
			
		

> "I m a girl get over it"



Look at all the answers you've got with a thread titled *"I m a girl get over it"*

Now just imagine what it would have been if the title had been *"I m a girl get over ME"*    (Sorry for grandma...)


----------



## Vraille Darkfang (Apr 18, 2005)

Friendly Advice to Scratched Back,

Girlfriend 5 months pregant,

Posts to website full of (some of us), desperate "geeks" saying they are cool & how she loves roleplaying.

Mahaps this is a hint to begin your "Quest for One Ring to Bind Them All"?

Just sayin,


----------



## Majoru Oakheart (Apr 18, 2005)

Elf Witch said:
			
		

> When I see gamers who are in the mid 20s who fit the sterotype I have to wonder why. Is it a  psychological problem that stops them from being able to fit into mainstream society or is that they don't want to. Is it a badge of honor they wear. Society didn't let them fit in when they were teen agers so why should they bother to try and fit in now, It is the principle that counts.



Since I pretty much qualify as this (mid 20s, overweight, wears sci-fi/geek t-shirts).  I'd say I look like this because...well, I'm overweight and I like sci-fi and geek slogans.

I could probably go on a diet, do huge amounts of exercise and try to slim down while switching to more stylish clothes and try to go out and do less geeky things.  Then again, if I did, I wouldn't be me anymore.

Yes, I have to deal with the consequences.  This means a lot of people will write me off just by seeing me.  That is their loss.  But to make it sound like I have a psychological problem because I happen to look like this makes it sound like there is "normal" and everyone who doesn't try to fit into it is wrong.

Anyways, this is off topic and I think I'll post it as a seperate thread.


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## freebfrost (Apr 18, 2005)

Sarajaine"The Solar" said:
			
		

> Is it just that we are the of the opposite sex or that you are afraid to let us into your world for fear we will see you at your most vulnerable and the concept of seeing you getting excited or even moved at slaying a dragon may make you lose any sexual credibility and make you less of a man.




I've had women gamers in my games for years, and have never heard this one before.

So basically, male gamers are so much more in touch with our feminine side whilst gaming - so emotional, so passionate - that we are afraid of letting women see us be so vulnerable?

You're fairly young I would guess...  



> The point I am making is that I know from first hand experience with my boyfriend that gamers love what they do with a passion so why are you ashamed of it?




I really don't personally know any gamers who fit that stereotype.  I am certainly proud of all my hobbies, D&D included.  Now, this doesn't mean that I walk around all the time carrying my PHB and wearing a Dragon t-shirt anymore than I walk around carrying my bike and wearing a Lance Armstrong t-shirt.

On the flip side, I'm also a thirty-something married gaming guy, and have long since come to terms with who and what I am.  Not sure how old your boyfriend and company are, but maturity does have a lot to do with that too.



> As sweet (and naive) as this comment was, I would'nt dream of playing with a group of his friends as I would surely get laughed at, patronisingly patted on my head and may even get called "rookie" or asked to get make the drinks.




But you *are* a rookie - and like any club or organization, there can be a "hazing" period where you will be the one pointed at while everyone snickers and calls you "rookie" to some extent.  I discourage that at my table, and actually probably spend more time patronizing the rules lawyer who's played for 20+ years when she finally gets a rule wrong!  

I would suggest that if you still can't see playing with your boyfriend, to find another group to get your feet wet.  Reading the rules is okay, but sitting in on a few games makes all the difference in the world.  Go out and play some and come back to your boyfriend's group not as a rookie, but as an experienced player.  Don't miss out on your opportunity for enjoyment, and maybe just take the chance in expanding your boyfriend's views at the same time.


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## Vraille Darkfang (Apr 18, 2005)

Hazing:

I don't "Haze" new players.  They are there to learn & have a good time.  Not for Us to have a good time at their expense.

New players are going to screw up enough on their own without people (including the DM), making it easier for them.

Welcome them to the game, help them understand the rules & have fun.

Leave the paddles to the frat boys.


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## Elf Witch (Apr 18, 2005)

Majoru Oakheart said:
			
		

> Since I pretty much qualify as this (mid 20s, overweight, wears sci-fi/geek t-shirts).  I'd say I look like this because...well, I'm overweight and I like sci-fi and geek slogans.
> 
> I could probably go on a diet, do huge amounts of exercise and try to slim down while switching to more stylish clothes and try to go out and do less geeky things.  Then again, if I did, I wouldn't be me anymore.
> 
> ...




You misread my post I am not talking about someone who wears tshirts and likes SF. I was talking about someone who does not bathe, can't hold a job or does not see the need to hold a job because it might interfere with gaming and has no clue what is going on in the real world then yes I do think that person has a deep problem.


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## Doc_Souark (Apr 18, 2005)

Elf Witch said:
			
		

> You misread my post I am not talking about someone who wears tshirts and likes SF. I was talking about someone who does not bathe, can't hold a job or does not see the need to hold a job because it might interfere with gaming and has no clue what is going on in the real world then yes I do think that person has a deep problem.




 Anyone who pursues an activity be it gameing, drugs or whatever , and excludes normal life (family, a job, bathing) has a problem and if thier a gamer it reflects badly on the rest of us.


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