# Why is the Mule considered a Game Breaker?



## Zaran

[No message]


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## IronWolf

The SRD lists a mule as an option to purchase for 8gp.


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## Zaran

Yeah, the mule is in the 3.5 PHB.  It was removed from the game in 4e though like other game breaking devices!


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## firesnakearies

DMs just couldn't handle the power of the mule.  It was a real pain in older editions.  You had to totally plan your adventures around the presence of one (or more!!) mules.  It made a lot of content completely trivial.

Try running a published scenario with players who have a mule (or two!!).  All I have to say to that is, _"Yeah right."_

Basically, when you can look on CharOp and _every single build_ includes mule ownership, you know there's a problem.

Honestly, I salute the bold and visionary designers of 4th edition for having the courage to defy those mule-abusing powergamers of yesteryear and take that ridiculous pack animal out of the game.  Finally, we can have some sanity at the table.

It's about time, I say.


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## Neonchameleon

Why do you _want_ to buy one?  And what's wrong with it remaining a background datum?

And for the record, IIRC in Living Realms there was a breaker involving them.  Two mules and a cart - and you're allowed to crash them.  Something like 6d10 damage for an almost autohitting consumable.  That therefore got replaced after every session under Living Rules.  (Or so I've been told - I've never played Living anything).


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## Mark Hope

As if the removal of the DonkeyHorse wasn't bad enough, whatever happened to the DonkeyHotay?


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## Zaran

You can do all kinds of things with a Mule! The obvious one is to carry all of the mage's crap so the fighter doesn't have to. And you know how those greedy rogues want to haul every thing that isn't nailed shut in that tomb. Oh, wait! They have a crowbar for those too! 

Mules are great trapfinders, emergency rations, and great victims for big bad monsters to fly off with one in it's maw. Do you have an annoying NPC? Ask them to guard the precious party mule (if you are lucky the dragon will eat the NPC first, mules cost money).



> Basically, when you can look on CharOp and _every single build_ includes mule ownership, you know there's a problem.




Oh, good call there! But maybe they could have made it so that the mule's traits can only be used with the Mule's Class or Paragon Path powers.


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## Scribble

The Mule is a redundant creature... I mean is it a horse? Is it's a donkey?

What's its niche?

Even it can't decide.  It's much better to have just a regular horse, and be done with the half horse forever.

Oh and fey horse too we need those.

and Dark horse... cause dark stuff is cool.

Stupid redundant mule.


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## Doug McCrae

The Wrathflame Donkeyhorse will be in MM3.


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## Piratecat

When I played Old D&D with Gygax a few years back he didn't encourage purchasing a mule; instead, he recommended we buy a dungeon cart, basically an adventurer-pushed wheelbarrow to carry treasure. Even after a gelatinous cube ate my mule, my accursed companions put my unconscious elf in the cart and used me to batter open doors. I'm still bitter. My mule barely lasted half an hour.

In comparison, 4e boasts several versions of the mule: the kickgroin donkeyhorse, the cart-rammer donkeyhorse, the gnomechewer donkeyhorse, and the universally disliked bootpiddle plopstep donkeyhorse. I think they're just too powerful for an average group! These things can fight, run, set off traps, act as a mount, act as cover, be used as an alarm, and double as iron rations. Broken.


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## Vyvyan Basterd

Wizards decided to sever the negative connection between D&D and drugs. They may allow the class as a web-only feature like the Assassin.


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## CleverNickName

Obviously mules are incredibly powerful, even in 3.5E.  By the time you apply the Half-Donkey template to a standard riding horse, the ability bonuses get all out of kelter and the racial hit dice become seriously unbalancing.  And if you were to use a war horse as the base creature?  Hoo boy.

But it's no big deal.  Any *good* DM will simply rewrite the rules for racial hit dice, ability scores, and template application, and create a custom breed of horse to use as the base creature.  Easy as pie.



Piratecat said:


> In comparison, 4e boasts several versions of the mule: the kickgroin donkeyhorse, the cart-rammer donkeyhorse, the gnomechewer donkeyhorse, and the universally disliked bootpiddle plopstep donkeyhorse. I think they're just too powerful for an average group! These things can fight, run, set off traps, act as a mount, act as cover, be used as an alarm, and double as iron rations. Broken.



JEEEEZZZZ, how much XP does a brother need to spread around before he can give XP to PirateCat again?!  Can somebody cover me here?  The bootpiddle plopstep donkey is pure poetry.


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## Fifth Element

It stepped on the toes of both the Donkey and the Horse. (Ignoring the fact that neither of these actually have toes!) They needed to silo the powers of the Donkey and the Horse so out it went!


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## Mark

Piratecat said:


> When I played Old D&D with Gygax a few years back he didn't encourage purchasing a mule; instead, he recommended we buy a dungeon cart, basically an adventurer-pushed wheelbarrow to carry treasure. Even after a gelatinous cube ate my mule, my accursed companions put my unconscious elf in the cart and used me to batter open doors. I'm still bitter. My mule barely lasted half an hour.





IIRC, it was retroactively named after the one EN Worlder you forgot to invite to play.




Piratecat said:


> (. . .) bootpiddle plopstep (. . .)





ProudFEET![/Hobbit]


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## Aberzanzorax

It's not just 4e. There is no mule to be found in the Pathfinder bestiary EITHER!


I suspect it was removed because it overpowers fighters. Imagine a wizard with a mule...think of the CARRYING CAPACITY! That's like having a 25 strength at level 1!!!!

BROKENNNNNN!!!!!1!!!1


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## Jhaelen

It was done to annoy you.


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## firesnakearies

This thread is seriously delivering.  I laughed at several of these posts, but sadly couldn't give out XP to everyone.

I need to go stat out the "bootpiddle plopstep donkeyhorse" RIGHT NOW...


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## CleverNickName

firesnakearies said:


> I need to go stat out the "bootpiddle plopstep donkeyhorse" RIGHT NOW...



Yes.  Yes you do.


And because it had to be done:
[SBLOCK="The Donkeyhorse Template"]*Donkeyhorse (Half-Donkey)*
*Template*

The Donkeyhorse is the offspring of a male donkey and a female horse.  The resulting combination of species results in a mount that is more patient, sure-footed, hardy and long-lived than a horse, and considered less obstinate, faster, and more intelligent than a donkey.

All male donkeyhorses are sterile, and most females are infertile.


CREATING A DONKEYHORSE
"Donkeyhorse" is a template that can be added to any light equine quadraped animal of Large size.

*Size and Type:* as base creature

*Hit Dice:* as base creature

*Speed:* The base speed of a donkeyhorse is 30 feet.  If the base creature has a burrow speed _(*rimshot*_), the donkeyhorse retains that ability.

*Armor Class:* as base creature

*Attack:* a donkeyhorse retains all the attacks of the base creature, and also gains a hoof attack if it did not already have it.

*Damage:* donkeyhorses have hoof attacks.  If the base creature does not have this attack form, use the appropriate damage value from the table below according to the donkeyhorse's size.  Creatures that have other kinds of natural weapons retain their old damage values or use the appropriate value from the table below, whichever is better.
_______________
*Size. * | *Damage*
------|----------
Large | 1d4_____

*Special Attacks:*  a donkeyhorse retains all the special attacks of the base creature.  Saves have a DC of 10 + 1/2 the donkeyhorse's HD + the donkeyhorse's Charisma modifier unless noted otherwise.

*Special Qualities:* a donkeyhorse retains all the special qualities of the base creature and gains those described below.

_Low-Light Vision (Ex):_ A creature with low-light vision can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of shadowy illumination. It retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.

_Scent (Ex):_ This extraordinary ability allows a creature to detect approaching enemies, sniff out hidden foes, and track by sense of smell. Creatures with the scent ability can identify familiar odors just as humans do familiar sights.  For more information, refer to the SRD. 

*Abilities:* Adjust from the base creature as follows:  Str +2, Con +2, Wis -1.

*Skills:* a donkeyhorse has a +2 racial bonus on Dexterity checks to avoid slipping or falling.

*Feats:* a donkeyhorse loses the Run feat (if it has it), and gains Alertness, assuming the base creature meets the prerequisites and doesn't already have it.

*Environment:* Any, usually same as base creature.

*Organization:*  changes to "Domesticated."

*Challenge Rating:* same as base creature.

*Treasure:* same as base creature

*Alignment: *always neutral


CART-RAMMER DONKEYHORSE
A cart-rammer donkeyhorse is a particularly nasty variety of donkeyhorse, known for its ill temper and penchant for ramming carts with its powerful hooves.

To create a cart-rammer donkeyhorse, apply the donkeyhorse template and add the words "cart-rammer" as a prefix to the name of the creature.[/SBLOCK]


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## CharlesRyan

I have a shiny new one-pound coin for the good gamer who stats the bootpiddle plopstep donkeyhorse. (You'll have to come to Hampshire to collect.)


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## Azgulor

Piratecat said:


> When I played Old D&D with Gygax a few years back he didn't encourage purchasing a mule; instead, he recommended we buy a dungeon cart, basically an adventurer-pushed wheelbarrow to carry treasure. Even after a gelatinous cube ate my mule, my accursed companions put my unconscious elf in the cart and used me to batter open doors. I'm still bitter. My mule barely lasted half an hour.
> 
> In comparison, 4e boasts several versions of the mule: the kickgroin donkeyhorse, the cart-rammer donkeyhorse, the gnomechewer donkeyhorse, and the universally disliked bootpiddle plopstep donkeyhorse. I think they're just too powerful for an average group! These things can fight, run, set off traps, act as a mount, act as cover, be used as an alarm, and double as iron rations. Broken.




But are they Brutes or Strikers?


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## Azgulor

In the lost 4e developer's blog, mules were ID'd as un-fun.  Too much care, feeding, watering & way too stubborn.  Those traits are reserved for player characters.

Also, the presence of a mule was considered grounds for grognard identification in much the same way as a 10' pole.


Bottom line... mules aren't sexy....


...but rumor has it donkeys still are in Mexico.


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## Shoe

CleverNickName said:


> Yes. Yes you do.
> 
> 
> And because it had to be done:
> [SBLOCK="The Donkeyhorse Template"]*Donkeyhorse (Half-Donkey)*
> *Template*
> 
> The Donkeyhorse is the offspring of a male donkey and a female horse. The resulting combination of species results in a mount that is more patient, sure-footed, hardy and long-lived than a horse, and considered less obstinate, faster, and more intelligent than a donkey.
> 
> All male donkeyhorses are sterile, and most females are infertile.
> 
> 
> CREATING A DONKEYHORSE
> "Donkeyhorse" is a template that can be added to any light equine quadraped animal of Large size.
> 
> *Size and Type:* as base creature
> 
> *Hit Dice:* as base creature
> 
> *Speed:* The base speed of a donkeyhorse is 30 feet. If the base creature has a burrow speed _(*rimshot*_), the donkeyhorse retains that ability.
> 
> *Armor Class:* as base creature
> 
> *Attack:* a donkeyhorse retains all the attacks of the base creature, and also gains a hoof attack if it did not already have it.
> 
> *Damage:* donkeyhorses have hoof attacks. If the base creature does not have this attack form, use the appropriate damage value from the table below according to the donkeyhorse's size. Creatures that have other kinds of natural weapons retain their old damage values or use the appropriate value from the table below, whichever is better.
> _______________
> *Size. *| *Damage*
> ------|----------
> Large | 1d4_____
> 
> *Special Attacks:* a donkeyhorse retains all the special attacks of the base creature. Saves have a DC of 10 + 1/2 the donkeyhorse's HD + the donkeyhorse's Charisma modifier unless noted otherwise.
> 
> *Special Qualities:* a donkeyhorse retains all the special qualities of the base creature and gains those described below.
> 
> _Low-Light Vision (Ex):_ A creature with low-light vision can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of shadowy illumination. It retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
> 
> _Scent (Ex):_ This extraordinary ability allows a creature to detect approaching enemies, sniff out hidden foes, and track by sense of smell. Creatures with the scent ability can identify familiar odors just as humans do familiar sights. For more information, refer to the SRD.
> 
> *Abilities:* Adjust from the base creature as follows: Str +2, Con +2, Wis -1.
> 
> *Skills:* a donkeyhorse has a +2 racial bonus on Dexterity checks to avoid slipping or falling.
> 
> *Feats:* a donkeyhorse loses the Run feat (if it has it), and gains Alertness, assuming the base creature meets the prerequisites and doesn't already have it.
> 
> *Environment:* Any, usually same as base creature.
> 
> *Organization:* changes to "Domesticated."
> 
> *Challenge Rating:* same as base creature.
> 
> *Treasure:* same as base creature
> 
> *Alignment: *always neutral
> 
> 
> CART-RAMMER DONKEYHORSE
> A cart-rammer donkeyhorse is a particularly nasty variety of donkeyhorse, known for its ill temper and penchant for ramming carts with its powerful hooves.
> 
> To create a cart-rammer donkeyhorse, apply the donkeyhorse template and add the words "cart-rammer" as a prefix to the name of the creature.[/SBLOCK]





Totally adding this template to a Nightmare


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## weem

Wait... didn't you guys hear?

Coming in 2011...





(click for high-rez glory.)

They are also going to have Muleforged at some point...







...you guys are way behind.


<edit> I made the image smaller </edit>


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## Crothian

IronWolf said:


> The SRD lists a mule as an option to purchase for 8gp.




You will notice (since you are one of my players) though that in my game no one has been allowed to acquire one.


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## LostSoul

The ability to use psychology without the Bright Mark is very powerful.  You could initiate a psychic duel with a Forged Lord while everyone's watching and no-one will know he's your puppet.


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## roguerouge

You're all wrong. I have it on good authority that the mule was excluded from 4e due to the implications of its parentage; namely, they are the "product" of the ongoing war between donkeys and horses. 

I, for one, do not want my fantasy gaming to have that kind of "mature" content!


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## Zaran

CleverNickName said:


> Yes. Yes you do.
> 
> 
> And because it had to be done:
> [SBLOCK="The Donkeyhorse Template"]*Donkeyhorse (Half-Donkey)*
> *Template*
> [/SBLOCK]




Oh, man. I love this!


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## Zaran

weem said:


> Wait... didn't you guys hear?
> 
> Coming in 2011...




You guys are too much!  Thanks for the support.


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## korjik

Allowing a Donkeyhorse in your game makes you a BAD DM!!!!!1!1!!


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## wedgeski

LOL, brilliant Weem!!!


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## Jonathan Drain

I suspect the mule was omitted from 4e for balance as much as anything else. In a 3e game of mine, players were able to loot a hundred useless +1 swords from a battlefield for a sale price of 100,000gp - all for an investment of a few hundred pack animals!

Now that 4e lets wizards cast Magic Missile indefinitely, I think we're seeing a similar "infinite loot" issue. Players can not only loot the dungeon, they can loot the DUNGEON: drill it out brick by brick, and sell it for the value of the stone.

At this rate, pack animals would quickly pay for themselves, and the game would devolve into simulating a mining operation. I'm certain that's what Wizards is trying to avoid.


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## olshanski

What about flying donkeyhorses?


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## Obryn

The real problem is that mules can carry more weight than they, themselves, weigh.  So it creates an infinite loop.

Let's say a mule can carry 1.5 mule-weights (mw).

First, pack one mule onto another mule.  The first mule still has .5 mw left over, and the second can still carry the full 1.5mw.  This amounts to a single mule now carrying 2 mw.

Pack a third mule onto the second one.  Well, now we have two mules with .5 mw left over, and a third with a full 1.5 mw of weight to bear.  This totals 2.5 mw, all carried by a single mule.

You can repeat ad-infinitum, stacking your mules sky-high, gaining an extra .5 mw every time.  I remember when my 1e group went in with a 40-mule stack to bear treasure out of the Temple of Elemental Evil...

It was awesome for carrying around our 200 10' poles.  (We didn't want change for the gold piece.)

-O


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## Zaran

Obryn said:


> The real problem is that mules can carry more weight than they, themselves, weigh. So it creates an infinite loop.
> 
> Let's say a mule can carry 1.5 mule-weights (mw).
> 
> First, pack one mule onto another mule. The first mule still has .5 mw left over, and the second can still carry the full 1.5mw. This amounts to a single mule now carrying 2 mw.
> 
> Pack a third mule onto the second one. Well, now we have two mules with .5 mw left over, and a third with a full 1.5 mw of weight to bear. This totals 2.5 mw, all carried by a single mule.
> 
> You can repeat ad-infinitum, stacking your mules sky-high, gaining an extra .5 mw every time. I remember when my 1e group went in with a 40-mule stack to bear treasure out of the Temple of Elemental Evil...
> 
> It was awesome for carrying around our 200 10' poles. (We didn't want change for the gold piece.)
> 
> -O




Oh come on!  Everyone knows that Mule bonuses don't stack with each other.


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## terraleon

Well, sure.   

In desperate situations, people would break their mule to inflict catastrophic damage.   

They're like artifacts, but smellier.

-Ben.


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## weem

olshanski said:


> What about flying donkeyhorses?




I considered using that image on the cover, haha.

Thanks for the comments all


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## ExploderWizard

Zaran said:


> You can do all kinds of things with a Mule!






Ok this is getting nasty now. 

"...met her at a donkey show, she was minutes past thirteen................."


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## Dannyalcatraz

Aren't Donkeyhorses related to the Tarrasque?  Fierce beasties...

Besides, once you open up the game to include the Donkeyhorse, its only a small (potentially slippery and smelly) step until the players start asking for Llamas.

And we _all_ know what Llamas lead up to...

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbwkkXGmFrI]YouTube - Monty Python Llama Sketch[/ame]

which then leads to the inclusion of Møøse, whose bytes kan be pretty nasti...

Nø, realli!


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## Woas

I think they took mules out of the base game because WotC was aiming for  PG13-ish rating.

Err wait, that would be donkeys...


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## Scotley

In 4e you can't have animals that do useful stuff unless it is a class ability or power. You don't need to stat out the mule, you need a Muleskinner class. No doubt one will be in Players Handbook 4 or maybe 5.

Besides average treasure parcels are carefully constructed so that a balanced party can carry them without quadruped assistance.


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## Oryan77

So does 4e have stats for a Donkey, but people want stats for a "Mule"? Or are there not even stats for a Donkey?

Couldn't they just make a Mule a Daily Power? That seems to make as much sense as everything else in 4e  I kid....I kid....


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## Zaran

Closest they come to is just a regular riding horse.  People say to use those stats for the mule but it's just not the same!  Besides, horses cost 75gp.  No level 1 adventurer can afford 75gp for a mule.  I wonder what the Mount power for a mule would be?  Maybe that's where the Groinkicker Donkeyhorse comes in.


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## amysrevenge

Scotley said:


> Besides average treasure parcels are carefully constructed so that a balanced party can carry them without quadruped assistance.




Whereas an unbalanced party will keep tipping over...


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## coyote6

Jonathan Drain said:


> I suspect the mule was omitted from 4e for balance as much as anything else. In a 3e game of mine, players were able to loot a hundred useless +1 swords from a battlefield for a sale price of 100,000gp - all for an investment of a few hundred pack animals!




They bought multiple hundreds of mules to carry one hundred swords? Gigantic swords, really weak donkeyhorses, PCs really bad at looting, or a really good mule salesman?


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## tuxgeo

CleverNickName said:


> Obviously mules are incredibly powerful, even in 3.5E.  By the time you apply the Half-Donkey template to a standard riding horse, the ability bonuses get all out of kelter and the racial hit dice become seriously unbalancing.  And if you were to use a war horse as the base creature?  Hoo boy.
> 
> But it's no big deal.  Any *good* DM will simply rewrite the rules for racial hit dice, ability scores, and template application, and create a custom breed of horse to use as the base creature.  Easy as pie.
> 
> JEEEEZZZZ, how much XP does a brother need to spread around before he can give XP to PirateCat again?!  Can somebody cover me here?  The bootpiddle plopstep donkey is pure poetry.



Covered.
Soon to move on to your template.


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## Mika

Of course the Mule is a game breaker -- He could dominate others at will!  He singlehandedly derailed the whole Seldon plan!  

Oh -- You were talking about a horse/donkey hybrid?  Never mind....


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## Diamond Cross

Oh I don't know. When I played 1e and 2e every single time I had a horse or a mule it was eaten by a dragon who just happen to be flying overhead or some sort of monster would eat it. So eventually I just stopped getting them in favor of bags of holding or a portable hole.


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## Joshua Randall

Obryn said:


> The real problem is that mules can carry more weight than they, themselves, weigh.  So it creates an infinite loop.
> 
> [...] You can repeat ad-infinitum, stacking your mules sky-high



"It's [-]turtles[/-] mules all the way down!"


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## Dannyalcatraz

> You were talking about a horse/donkey hybrid?




I think therein lies a clue: they couldn't put the Mule in until they had established the viability of the PHB3 Hybrid rules!

We should be seeing those Horse/Donkey hybrids any old time now...


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## Jhaelen

Zaran said:


> I wonder what the Mount power for a mule would be?  Maybe that's where the Groinkicker Donkeyhorse comes in.



I'd suggest resisting movement - forced or otherwise.


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## Stormonu

Blame it all on the 3E druid.  We all know the broken combo - get a mule animal companion, a +50 bonus to _Animal Empathy_ out in the wild, and the ability to shape shift into mule shape (and eventually the entire party with _Animal Shapes_).  The druid just starts stacking himself on top of his own companion and befriended mules and eventually they haul the entire dungeon back, brick by brick, to town and sell it.  Poor little pun-pun couldn't keep up with the wealth-by-level overload.  I mean, it even took the wizard at least until 9th level to get that broken with the _Baleful Polymorph_ and _Charm Monster_ combo where he would then be able to create his own dungeon-carrying army of self-created mules. 

...And the fighter still had to _buy_ the mule.

...hmm Druid muleskinner prestige class - I'll have to think about that.


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## Hand of Evil

Why are there no bears in Africa?  

Some animals just are not going to make the cut, some are just half-orcs!


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## Dannyalcatraz

Hand of Evil said:


> Why are there no bears in Africa?




Because they wandered through the jungles between 2PM and 4PM, when the elephants were practicing their bungee jumping.


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## Herschel

weem said:


> Wait... didn't you guys hear?
> 
> Coming in 2011...




Best 
post
ever
On the entire intarwebs


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## falcarrion

the anti-cruelty  society sent wotc a cease and desist letter. The cruelty and untimely deaths of the these beast will not be tolerated any longer!


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## Dannyalcatraz

Cruelty and untimely deaths of MULES?

I'll have you know that according to an article in Dragon#713, Mules are responsible for more PC deaths than any other creature in the game.

And its not an accident that a Half-Dragon Mule was used as the BBEG in the classic module, Return to the Barrier Peaks Tomb-Web of Tamochan (the final module in the _Against the Equines_ series, written by Mr. Ed.)


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## Stormonu

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Cruelty and untimely deaths of MULES?
> 
> ...Half-Dragon Mule...




Wouldn't that be a quarter-horse?


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## Dannyalcatraz

Stormonu said:


> Wouldn't that be a quarter-horse?




And three quarters DOOOOOOOM!

His motivation?

He didn't get his royalty check from Shrek 2!
Shrek 2 Dragon and Donkey Baby Dronkeys Plush Dolls - - Shopping.com


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## Dannyalcatraz

> No kidding. One player of mine killed a party by dropping a mule from a robe of many items on them as they climbed a ladder




Ayah- thøse müle drøps kan rilli hürt...


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## El Mahdi

deleted


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## Aberzanzorax

UNLESS!

Unless a half-dragon donkey and half dragon horse mated, of course..


Wait? Do we need to break out the punnet squares?


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## TarionzCousin

Pshaw! Everybody knows they are saving Mules for DarkSun.


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## Olgar Shiverstone

Look, it was either the mule or the 10' pole.  One or the other is fine; both together break the game.

And you can have my 10' pole when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers, just prior to resurrection.


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## Piratecat

Olgar Shiverstone said:


> And you can have my 10' pole when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers, just prior to resurrection.



Yeah. Except you died because you didn't have a mule. 

Slacker.


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## renau1g

They just got tired of all the constant errata to the mule rules that they kept having to make thanks to those jerks...I mean creative individuals, at the charop boards. 

Man, doing 410 DPR with the mule just rubbed WOTC nose in the broken mechanics of the option. Especially at epic levels when mules gold costs were negligible.


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## firesnakearies

This thread needs to go into the Archive-threads forum.

That Muleonomicon post was pure gold, weem.  Why, oh why, can't I give you more XP for that?


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## Dannyalcatraz

El Mahdi said:


> See, this abuse highlights another reason why it's a game breaking concept: _Mules aren't capable of procreation!_




Pshaw!

With magic and some padded scaffolding, ALL things are possible.


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## Garthanos

Vyvyan Basterd said:


> Wizards decided to sever the negative connection between D&D and drugs. They may allow the class as a web-only feature like the Assassin.




Hah, sheesh... you are a bad boy.


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## TarionzCousin

Due out in December. Just in time for the holidays.








\props to weem. I stole copied the overlays from him.
\\still took way too long.


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## Dannyalcatraz

Garthanos said:


> Hah, sheesh...




Subtle...


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## Zaran

Maybe someone from Dragon will give us a Nerfed version of the Mule without the Ongoing damage or Nova Effect.  GMs will still have to deal with extra carrying capacity.

Putting in some kind of daily requirement of a carrot after every extended rest might balance out the game mechanics.


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## Sewicked

El Mahdi said:


> See, this abuse highlights another reason why it's a game breaking concept: _Mules aren't capable of procreation!_
> 
> Therefore a _Half-Dragon Mule_ is a verisimilitude violation that cannot be allowed!



Actually there is the occasional mule that manages to procreate; there was even one that managed two offspring. It's just really, really, [add a few dozen 'really's] rare. That of course adds to the very terror of the Half-Dragon Mule; it's not just rare, it's extremely mad.


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## YourSwordIsMine

Its a little known fact that most modern game designers prefer donkey shows than sexual mules...


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## Garthanos

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Subtle...




Who me I'm innocent  
I just thought to bring the connect between assassin and mule home


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## Stormonu

Piratecat said:


> Yeah. Except you died because you didn't have a mule.
> 
> Slacker.




"You must spread some experience..." yadda, yadda, yadda


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## El Mahdi

deleted


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## Herschel

That stuff really can do everything.


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## Diamond Cross

Yeah, Mythbusters made a boat and a bridge out of it!


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## (Psi)SeveredHead

roguerouge said:


> You're all wrong. I have it on good authority that the mule was excluded from 4e due to the implications of its parentage; namely, they are the "product" of the ongoing war between donkeys and horses.
> 
> I, for one, do not want my fantasy gaming to have that kind of "mature" content!




LOL! Literally!


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## Fifth Element

Diamond Cross said:


> Yeah, Mythbusters made a boat and a bridge out of it!



And a cannon. That actually fired.


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## Olgar Shiverstone

Piratecat said:


> Yeah. Except you died because you didn't have a mule.
> 
> Slacker.




Oh?  Let's see what happens when *you* stick *your mule* in that dark circle in the demon's mouth, my donkeyhorse-loving swashbuckling feline friend.

Bet you wish you had a 10' 'pole now, dontcha?


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## Dannyalcatraz

El Mahdi said:


> ...and Duct Tape!...



You don't need the duct tape if you play some Barry White.


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## Dannyalcatraz

Olgar Shiverstone said:


> Oh?  Let's see what happens when *you* stick *your mule* in that dark circle in the demon's mouth, my donkeyhorse-loving swashbuckling feline friend.
> 
> Bet you wish you had a 10' 'pole now, dontcha?




Nah...I found something more effective than a mere pole or a single donkeyhorse.

I just toss in a handful of Reduced Donkeyhorses into its mouth and then Dispel all of those spells simultaneously...

Mulecular Bomb, baby!


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## Lanefan

REPENT!

Repent, 4e; for thou hath sinned and sinned mightily, and your sins yet continue unabated!

It is said that thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's donkeyhorse; yet thou hath seen ye innocent donkeyhorse in 1e's domain and hath verily been moved to covet, yea covet with all your evil heart and damned soul.

Repent, 4e; lest it become too late!  Oh, woe is ye!

Lan-"ducking for cover now"-efan


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## Dannyalcatraz

Rules for Mules!

Rules for Mules!

Rules for Mules!

RULES FOR MULES!

RULES FOR MULES!

RULES FOR MULES!


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## Dannyalcatraz

Sings:
_
Welcome to your life
There's no turning back
And because we delve
We will find you
stashing all your best cool treasure
Turn your back on mother nature
Everybody wants mules in the world

It's my own design
It's my own remorse
Help me to decide
Help me take the most
Of freedom and of treasure
Nothing ever lasts forever
Everybody wants mules in the world

There's a room where the light won't find you
Fighting orcs while the walls come tumbling down
When they do I'll be right behind you

So glad we've almost made it
So sad we had to take it
Everybody wants mules in the world

I can't stand this indecision
Married with a lack of vision
Everybody wants mules in the world
Say that you'll never never never NEVER need it
One headline why believe it ?
Everybody wants mules in the world

All for freedom and for pleasure
Nothing ever lasts forever
Everybody wants mules in the world_


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## Wiseblood

I would really miss the mules except high level battles tended drag after the first few rounds fighting them. Good XP if you don't mind the grind.

No set duration for it's special attacks. (might have been and editing error though)

Range/area for special attacks also not listed. Seriously might not be too broken if we could get some proof reading here.

Dual wielding Hooves at no penalty plus full strength bonus on off hand....WTF

Low light vision AND scent .....come on

Great saves

3HD to start and no ECL.


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## Saracenus

Ozark Software/Electronic Arts sent a C&D letter to WotC baring them from infringing on their game title M.U.L.E.

That is why there are no mules in 4e...


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## Dannyalcatraz

Welcome to the Boards!


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## Achan hiArusa

You all are just stubborn and can't see the freedom and change that lack of mules gives you, embrace the change.  Just stubborn, stubborn as a mule.


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## Dannyalcatraz

IME, nothing else has quite the kick of mule rules.

I might as well face it, I'm addicted to mule.

(key Robert Palmer music)


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## Diamond Cross

Hmmm... the Mul is my favorite race to play in Dark Sun.

Along with the Half Giant.


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## korjik

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Nah...I found something more effective than a mere pole or a single donkeyhorse.
> 
> I just toss in a handful of Reduced Donkeyhorses into its mouth and then Dispel all of those spells simultaneously...
> 
> Mulecular Bomb, baby!




They always then start using reduced donkeyhorses too. Pretty soon you get Muletually Assured Destruction.


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## Diamond Cross

I suppose a diremule would specialize in muletilation.

So would a half celestial mule Bard specialize in muleody?

Here's a list of words that have the mu in them:

http://www.morewords.com/contains/mu/


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## jaerdaph

This whole discussion just perpetuates the stereotype that gamers never get any ass...


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## Dannyalcatraz

I'm getting ready to play in my first 4Ed campaign.

I just noticed that the space they could have put a mule in was instead taken up by nonmagical implements and holy symbols.

How hu-mule-iating: cut out of the basic game for objects that have no function except to suck up your gp.

(Unless you are the Moon Roach, and your holy symbol weighs a ton and can be used as an area effect crushing weapon.)


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## Leif

Dannyalcatraz said:


> How hu-mule-iating



 This is worth an XP, but, alas, I can't oblige you again yet.


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## Zaran

That's wierd.  I know I wrote a paragraph or two in the opening post of this thread.  The only thing there are people's comments.


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## Piratecat

Zaran said:


> That's weird.  I know I wrote a paragraph or two in the opening post of this thread.  The only thing there are people's comments.



You sure did. One of the new features caused a weird bug with the html tables in random posts, where if they were edited the text would disappear. We've uninstalled the feature as a result, but there's still a few strange posts that have resulted.

Never fear. This was one of my favorite threads from the past few months. It's enshrined in my heart.


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## korjik

Its a WOTC conspiracy to keep the mule down!

Help help, I'm being repressed!


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## Hussar

Would beating a dead horse constitute the violence inherent in the system?


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## broghammerj

Piratecat,

I am reporting this thread to the mods.  The mule controversy is clearly a veiled edition wars thread and it is destroying the Enworld community.  You people should be ashamed of yourselves.


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## broghammerj

This message is to big brother out there.....my status edit is classic!

Well played my friend.....well played.


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## Zaran

Ok, well for those of you who weren't around when we started the thread...we have had three Player's Handbooks, two Adventurer's Vaults, and now three Monster Manuals.   None of these books have our most beloved mule (donkeyhorse to those of you who were weened off of 4e terminology).  

I think it's because "they" believe that mules, like flight and scrying spells, break the game.  But what I do not understand is why the donkyhorse breaks the game.  I have done some research and it seems that anyone who was assigned to the section on "Such Things Useless in Combat or Killing" or S.T.U.C.K. have been laid off or "disappeared".   It might even be the reason that we do not have an online gaming table! Because rumor has it the mule was hardwired into the programming so that the freedom loving players of online dnd did not have their stuff carried by the Arnold Strengtheneggers.

I better not say anym...


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## WheresMyD20

Horses, donkeys, and mules suffered from the same problem as dwarves, gnomes, and halflings:  they were just too similar.  The obvious remedy is to remove donkeys and mules from the game until the designers can come up with new, more fun interpretations of donkeys and mules that differentiate them from horses.

Rumor has it that the new, redesigned donkeys will have a gaze attack.  The new, redesigned  mules will have scales and a mysterious connection to dragons.


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## Dannyalcatraz

Hussar said:


> Would beating a dead horse constitute the violence inherent in the system?




Not if you do it with a 10' pole.

That would be violence _completely outside _of the system.


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## Hussar

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Not if you do it with a 10' pole.
> 
> That would be violence _completely outside _of the system.




Ok, that one made me laugh.  Nice.  Must spread xp around etc etc.


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## Ariosto




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## billd91

WheresMyD20 said:


> The new, redesigned  mules will have scales and a mysterious connection to dragons.




Does this mean they'll also have hooters and be described as monotremes?


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## korjik

billd91 said:


> Does this mean they'll also have hooters and be described as monotremes?




Nope, they will be egg layers with breasts.

oh wait, what does monotreme mean again?


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## Achan hiArusa

korjik said:


> Nope, they will be egg layers with breasts.
> 
> oh wait, what does monotreme mean again?




Egg laying mammals that do produce milk but do not have mammae (or breasts as it were).


----------



## I'm A Banana

Great. Just when I thought the Dragonboobs case was finally put to rest, the Mulemmaries issue comes to the fore.

It's clearly so that female gamers don't feel like they can't play Mule PC's, guys. Why don't you want ladies to play mule characters? They can be as much of an ass as any male gamer. 

Um, that may have come out wrong...


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## El Mahdi

This reminds me of a donkeyhorse show I once saw in Juarez...


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## Dannyalcatraz

Kamikaze Midget said:


> It's clearly so that female gamers don't feel like they can't play Mule PC's, guys. Why don't you want ladies to play mule characters? They can be as much of an ass as any male gamer.




I likes me some badonkadonkey.


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## firesnakearies

Thread needs more weem.


----------



## Mark

> Why is the Mule considered a Game Breaker?





_Because he carries a lot of weight!_


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## korjik

Dannyalcatraz said:


> I likes me some badonkadonkey.




Isnt that a badonkadonkey_horse_?

The one with the dominate power?


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## GandalfMithrandir

I don't know why , for example if you were fighting a war, you wouldn't have every soldier mounted on a mule, they cost 8 gp, they are cover, they carry all his stuff, fight and are generally good at everything. for that matter, why wouldn't you have an army of only mules? 100 of them only would cost 800 gp, they can eat grass, and don't need much pay, it seems like the perfect idea, come to a town, maybe have some soldiers to hide behind the mules and take it over. perfect plan.


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## Dannyalcatraz

GandalfMithrandir said:


> I don't know why , for example if you were fighting a war, you wouldn't have every soldier mounted on a mule, they cost 8 gp, they are cover, they carry all his stuff, fight and are generally good at everything. for that matter, why wouldn't you have an army of only mules? 100 of them only would cost 800 gp, they can eat grass, and don't need much pay, it seems like the perfect idea, come to a town, maybe have some soldiers to hide behind the mules and take it over. perfect plan.




Dude!

I can totally see that: imagine LotR with Mules instead of Orcs!  Especially that scene where the Orc commander merely sidesteps the incoming shot!  With a Donkeyhorse, you'd get the additional contemptuous ear-flick.  Visual poetry.

Hellyeah!

Or should I say...HEEE-HOOONK!


----------



## GandalfMithrandir

going off of an earlier idea they can stack to get over city walls and such. they make a ramp, no need for siege towers, but they still look kind of cool.


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## athos

Would other things besides a donkey/horse be considered a mule?

How about a donkey/dragon - I actually had a player want one, and he was quite indignant when I said I wouldn't do that to the poor female donkey.  To which he replied, it was the dragon that was female, so I let him have it.


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## Vyvyan Basterd

athos said:


> Would other things besides a donkey/horse be considered a mule?
> 
> How about a donkey/dragon - I actually had a player want one, and he was quite indignant when I said I wouldn't do that to the poor female donkey.  To which he replied, it was the dragon that was female, so I let him have it.




Someone's been watching too much Shrek.


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## Urlithani

> I don't know why , for example if you were fighting a war, you wouldn't  have every soldier mounted on a mule, they cost 8 gp, they are cover,  they carry all his stuff, fight and are generally good at everything.  for that matter, why wouldn't you have an army of only mules? 100 of  them only would cost 800 gp, they can eat grass, and don't need much  pay, it seems like the perfect idea, come to a town, maybe have some  soldiers to hide behind the mules and take it over. perfect plan.




The United States has never lost a war in which mules were used. It's a fact.

In the 70's and 80's, we supplied the freedom fighters of Afghanistan with mules to help them combat Russia. Mules could climb trails and move through terrain that is simply impossible for jeeps, tanks, and helicopters.

Maybe it's just too inhumane of a weapon to use. The enemy would be horribly muletilated.


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## tuxgeo

GandalfMithrandir said:


> going off of an earlier idea they can stack to get over city walls and such. they make a ramp, no need for siege towers, but they still look kind of cool.



I'm starting to have second thoughts about letting donkeyhorses stack. 
Reason: they have the same keyword, "Don." (It's a Don-key word.) 
Since things having the same keyword don't stack, Donkeyhorses probably don't, either.

(Too bad -- that would have made a great rump-ramp!)


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## Dannyalcatraz

Or an assplanade.


----------



## Sabathius42

I always like to equip my mules with twin-linked vulcan machine guns in a turret, a ram plate, and a three spike droppers (one on each side and one in the back).

Of course...we play a strange CarWars/D&D crossover.

DS

PS  True Story:  A long time ago in a galaxy far far away a player created a WEG Star Wars character who owned "Pedro the Wonder Burro)".


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## Zaran

Good News Everyone!  5e has the return of mules!  It's listed in the Starter Box equipment for 8 gold !  We can now start working on Mule-ified munchkined game breaking characters!  Best Edition Ever!


----------



## Dannyalcatraz

I guess they took a muleigan.


----------



## scourger

Dannyalcatraz said:


> I guess they took a muleigan.




Or a "mule-again".


----------



## tomBitonti

Holy thread necromancy batman!

After their release after long imprisonment, won't they have the [Embittered] trait?  You know, be stubborn and angry?

Oh wait, how could you tell ...

Thx!

TomB

* I know that's not exactly what Embittered implies.  Roll with it folks, roll with it.


----------



## Zaran

Yeah , I felt it helped the satire if I added to the 4 year old thread instead of starting a new one.  It does make me very happy that the new edition is more than just a dungeon delve game and includes little things like the Mule.


----------



## gamerprinter

I can't figure out whether this thread is a joke or not. Being such a long, multi-paged thread, it obviously has some meaning to many...

I didn't read the thread since it's so long, but how could a mule have the possibility of breaking the game? It makes no sense. It's just a mount for equipment, versus any other kind of mount or other means of moving equipment while traveling, which I've never seen abused. Based on some of the responses upon a quick passing putting laser guns on a mule for a fantasy game is so wahoo, its simply silly. Would anyone actually want such a bizarre inclusion for use with a mule? Would any non-wahoo GM even allow such to included in their game?

I remember a party with a mule in some game long ago. It was only used to move equipment, and in reality got eaten by some monster before it ever had any kind of impact for that game it was used. Its just a mule.

This entire thread seems incredibly silly, yet being so long, I can't wrap my head around the idea that there's something broken about a simple mount.


----------



## Zaran

I basically implied that the Mule was not in the 4e game because it made characters too powerful like hour long buffs, wish spells, and 10 foot poles.
  It was a satirical protest about how anything that didn't relate to combat was removed from the game and left for the GM to deal with.  People would say "Why are whining about the mule?  Just use the stats for a horse!"  Which that's fine for combat but paying 75 gold for a mule is ridiculous.  =)

Personally I thought 4e was a good game system.  It just needed more tools for world building.  In my opinion, we didn't really need a new edition but now that we have one I for one am happy that it is more rounded with the mule.


----------



## Zaran

Also, if you haven't seen Weem's Mulenomicon cover then you are missing out!


----------



## gamerprinter

OK, satire for an isolated point regarding 4e, I can accept that, but a satirical thread that's 14 pages long, that's another head-wrapping conundrum...?

I never played 4e, but have no problem with anyone who does or the game itself. Really the developers might not think of every nuance from every previous edition, but for a GM to ad-hoc include a mule seems like nothing at all, and I don't get why its even worth a conversation for such an insignificant piece of equipment or animal. Its a slight curiosity and little more.

It seems Pathfinder umbrellas mules as a "pack animal" without offering stats for one, but hardly worth mentioning, let alone being satirical about it.

I get the gist of the thread, just not the 14 pages of enthusiasm over it...


----------



## Dannyalcatraz

Well, perhaps you're not as donkeyhorseheaded about this as some of us are!


----------



## (Psi)SeveredHead

Here's something I drew up a while back.


----------



## Wangalade

(Psi)SeveredHead said:


> Here's something I drew up a while back.




"To take an action in combat, the mule needs its master to 
take an equivalent action to command it to do so"

Pure Awesome!


----------



## (Psi)SeveredHead

Should I rename that to "Stubborn As A Mule?"


----------



## TarionzCousin

Now we have a surefire method to end all edition wars; all you need to do is ask "Does this edition have a mule? No?"


----------



## Zaran

TarionzCousin said:


> Now we have a surefire method to end all edition wars; all you need to do is ask "Does this edition have a mule? No?"




You understand!


----------

