# Orc or Hobgoblin?



## GreenTengu (Jul 27, 2015)

I am interested in what players think are the fundamental differences physiologically between Orcs and Hobgoblins. They get different stats, but whenever one attempt to approach how they are different it usually comes to "Lawful" vs. "Chaotic" which doesn't make any sense since among the individual races, assuming they aren't all made as clones off an assembly line, you are going to have different alignments among individuals. You are going to have the odd Orc monk who is Lawful or the Hobgoblin AntiPaladin who is by definition Chaotic Evil. And that demonstrates that they don't transform into one another when they have a different alignment.

Then maybe it could talk about society and... well... sure. On a maco-scale Orcs tend to be used as depictions of all the negative ideas we have historically held about primitive tribes. They get various traits of African tribes and Native Americans and Gauls and Huns mixed in together while Hobgoblins tend to mimic the negative traits of various cultures that we like to attribute to foreigners-- often plenty of orientalism mixed in with their depiction. If in an old non-PC western movie, the Orcs would be the "Injins" and the Hobgoblins would be the Mexicans or possibly the Chinese or whomever the "foreigner" is who lacks those good traits attributed to the true, real, honest, red-blooded 'Mericans. If you are going to do a story where a ship crash lands on an island of cannibals, you turn those natives into Orcs. If you are going to follow the script of a WWII narrative then you turn the Nazis and/or Japanese into Hobgoblins... and if you are doing a Cold War story, they become the Russians.
But that only goes so far and only works on a collective scale if you use them as a united force rather than individuals. You can have both of them working for the same mercenary company, either one can be bounty hunters or pirates, either one can become a guard or a bandit and in those roles there is no longer such a clear and distinct difference.

Moreover, the races are often given very, very different attributes suggesting that they should be wildly and fundamentally physically quite different and distinct from one another.
Now, sometimes it is easy to tell the difference because Orcs get presented as emerald green while Hobgoblins get shown as crimson. But plenty more times it just isn't too terribly clear. Both get presented as having gray skin often enough making it all murkier. I gathered a set of pictures that I felt lay within this range and I am interested in how others view these pictures.

I labeled each one so. I would appreciate it if people could say which ones they think are Orcs (or Half-Orcs) and which ones they would label Hobgoblins (or Bugbears).  I know that plenty of you might be familiar with these pictures and know the "right" answer, but maybe try to put that out of your mind if possible and having the pictures laid side-by-side based on your own personal criteria which one the picture should be regardless of how it was labeled in the book. I am not nearly as interested in the "right" answer as I am in trying to get a sense of how players separate one from the other based purely on appearance so that even when you use them in the same role, it makes sense to describe someone as one or the other.

And by all means feel free to explain what the criteria you used to decide was.


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## cmad1977 (Jul 27, 2015)

Tusks.


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## Wik (Jul 27, 2015)

In short, and my own humble opinions:

1.  Hobgoblins are part of a larger group of races.  They are tied together with goblins and bugbears.  They are, ultimately, a society, with hobgoblins forming the most dangerous subrace (goblins are small and disorganized;  bugbears are big and disorganized... hobgoblins are, well, organized).    

Orcs, however, are their own thing.  There are orogs, I suppose, and half-orcs, but these are a result of the fact that orcs will breed with anything.  They intermix with other species.   (there's a bit of real-world racism in there.  Orcs are often lumped in with the idea of "impure races", whereas hobgoblins are more like an evil version of Rome).  

2.  Hobgoblins are organized.  They have a military command structure.  Man for man, they are not an orc's equal... but in a battlefield, they'll win every time.  

Orcs are barbarian tribes.  They have an individualistic, warrior culture.  

3.  Both races are cruel.  But while hobgoblins lean towards an enjoyment for the expression of strength over the weak and the corruption of those around them (similar to devils), Orcs are all about physical cruelty and the use of force (similar to demons).  

4.  Hobgoblins form their own nations and mercenary units.  Orcs ignore national boundaries and form tribes... and individuals will join mercenary companies.  

5.  In a one on one battle, you'd want to fight a hobgoblin.  But if it was ten against ten, you'd prefer fighting the orcs, where the use of tactics would give you an edge.  


As a sidenote, I ran an encounter of  a group of orcs, orogs, and orc commanders against some hobgoblins, a hobgoblin captain, and a low-level hobgoblin mage in 5e.  The XP amounts were about the same.  The orcs had the combat for the first few rounds, but eventually the hobgoblins turned the tides and won the battle.  

I've run similar combats in every edition, and the results tend to the same.  Played out as barbarians versus Romans, the Romans (hobgoblins) always win.


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## Tuzenbach (Jul 27, 2015)

You forgot this pic of Hobgoblins......


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## GreenTengu (Jul 27, 2015)

cmad1977 said:


> Tusks.




Which one has them, which one doesn't? I am not sure any of the pictures I provided have lower jaw teeth large enough to be considered 'tusks'.




Wik said:


> In short, and my own humble opinions:
> 
> 1.  Hobgoblins are part of a larger group of races.  They are tied together with goblins and bugbears.  They are, ultimately, a society, with hobgoblins forming the most dangerous subrace (goblins are small and disorganized;  bugbears are big and disorganized... hobgoblins are, well, organized).
> 
> ...




Okay, but none of this applies on an individual basis. If you have just one Orc or just one Hobgoblin running around, how do you tell them apart? You are in a tavern looking for someone who can hold their own in a fight. Particularly if you consider them totally unrelated, how do you tell which one it is before you speak?



Tuzenbach said:


> You forgot this pic of Hobgoblins......
> 
> View attachment 69475




I know those. Those are winkies. Interestingly, Wikies were identical to Munchkins in the book, but I guess in the movie they decided to make them look like the witch of the east to better explain her own appearance.


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## Dave R (Jul 27, 2015)

Orcs have pig snouts and tusks.

Hobgoblins are goblinish, but it's goblins-as-fey, not just larger goblins with the same proportions.  Muscles bulge in weird places, they're oddly proportioned, they're stealthier than they have any right to be.  They're disciplined, but you'd wish they weren't.


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## Tuzenbach (Jul 27, 2015)

Physiological differences......... Hobgoblins have larger brains?


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## Zinnger (Jul 27, 2015)

If you want to know from physical appearances if you are dealing with a hobgoblin or orc this may help:

HOBGOBLINS

"have dark orange or red-orange skin, and hair ranging from dark red-brown to dark gray.  Yellow or dark brown eyes peer out beneath their beetling brows, and their wide mouths sport sharp and yellowed teeth.  A male hobgoblin might have a large blue or red nose, which symbolizes virility and power among goblinkin."

ORCS

"have stooped postures, low foreheads, and piggish faces with prominent lower canines that resemble tusks."

These descriptions come directly from the source.


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## Voadam (Jul 27, 2015)

I think of the bad guys on the cover of the  Keep on the Borderlands as my basic template for hobgoblins. I generally view hobgoblins as either like shogunate japanese (based off the 1e MM pictures), or sort of roman (from later 3e style depictions) in culture, very martial oriented empires. I think of hobgoblins as leaner and taller while orcs are more hunched and hulking, often beefier.


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## Wik (Jul 29, 2015)

TheHobgoblin said:


> Okay, but none of this applies on an individual basis. If you have just one Orc or just one Hobgoblin running around, how do you tell them apart? You are in a tavern looking for someone who can hold their own in a fight. Particularly if you consider them totally unrelated, how do you tell which one it is before you speak?




Well, I don't think hobgoblins drink alone.  That's not good soldierly behaviour!   

But I'd imagine the orc as the one making a bunch of noise, drinking too much, and slapping barmaids on the butt.  The hobgoblin is the one trying to get free drinks by dropping thinly veiled hints to the bartender, glaring at people hoping they'll throw the first punch so the hobgoblin can legally run them through with a dagger.


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## diaglo (Jul 29, 2015)

is this a d02 edition and newer question?


hobgoblins are more powerful than orcs in OD&D and 1edADnD. that extra +1 moves them up a whole category with chances to hit. they are better armed. better disciplined as a group. better tactics in mass combat when playing Chainmail, etc...


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## GreenTengu (Jul 30, 2015)

diaglo said:


> is this a d02 edition and newer question?
> 
> 
> hobgoblins are more powerful than orcs in OD&D and 1edADnD. that extra +1 moves them up a whole category with chances to hit. they are better armed. better disciplined as a group. better tactics in mass combat when playing Chainmail, etc...




Yep. You missed the point, I think.

When you see one, do you think to yourself "hmmm... does that thing have a +1 hit point?" in order to determine what it is.
If you gain an Orcish follower do you say to him, "hold up! I got some extra gold. Let's get you fitted for some chainmail armor and a better weapon so you can become a hobgoblin."?

I don't see many races that are separated solely by personality and equipment. You don't say "The difference between a halfling and a dwarf is that a dwarf wears better equipment and is lawful and more organized." So you don't need to take a look at a group of short people coming and say "hmmm.. how organized do they seem?"

And particularly when you talk about PCs and NPCs, there is every reason to think that their class and background are going to make much more impact on what equipment they are using and how many hit points they have. That's why I provided all the example pictures-- because I want to find an answer based on appearance, and to be fair you can see what equipment they have in the pictures so that can even be part of it.

And of the people who have answered, only about 4 so far, there has been consensus on only a few... and some of those are the opposite of what the book claimed they were.

Chainmail was played with models, right? So even then they needed to be clearly differentiated.


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## N'raac (Jul 30, 2015)

If you're looking for simple appearance, then I suggest the answer is that it has varied with edition, and can vary between game worlds and campaigns.  Hobgoblins are "goblinoid", but "goblinoid" appearance varies a lot between, say, 1e, 4e, Pathfinder (hmmm...did we lose Hobgoblins in Pathfinder?  oh, they completely lack facial hair and even females are often bald) and Order of the Stick.  

But it hardly seems unreasonable we could see Hobgoblins who resemble Orcs and Orcs who have a resemblance to Hobgoblins.  They likely have some characteristics in common as a race, but most races also see considerable variance in appearance.


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## Voadam (Jul 30, 2015)

Zinnger said:


> If you want to know from physical appearances if you are dealing with a hobgoblin or orc this may help:
> 
> HOBGOBLINS
> 
> ...




Which source?

Moldvay Basic:



> Hobgoblins are bigger and meaner relatives of goblins.
> 
> Goblins are a small incredibly ugly human-like race. Their skin is a pale earthy color, such as chalky tan or livid gray. Their eyes are red, and glow when there is little light, somewhat like rat's eyes.
> 
> Orcs are ugly human-like creatures who look like a combination of animal and man.




1e AD&D Monster Manual:



> The hairy hides of hobgoblins range from dark reddish-brown to gray black. Their faces are bright red-orange to red. Large males will have blue-red noses. Eyes are either yellowish or dark brown. Teeth are yellowed white to dirty yellow.
> 
> Orcs appear particularly disgusting because their coloration - brown or brownish green with a bluish sheen - highlights their pinkish snouts and ears. Their bristly hair is dark brown or black, sometimes with tan patches.




2e: 



> The typical hobgoblin is a burly humanoid standing 6½’ tall. Their hairy hides range from dark reddish-brown to dark gray. Their faces show dark red or red-orange skin. Large males have blue or red noses. Hobgoblin eyes are either yellowish or dark brown while their teeth are yellow.
> 
> Orcs vary widely in appearance, as they frequently crossbreed with other species. In general, they resemble primitive humans with grey-green skin covered with coarse hair. Orcs have a slightly stooped posture, a low jutting forehead, and a snout instead of a nose, though comparisons between this facial feature and those of pigs are exaggerated and perhaps unfair. Orcs have well-developed canine teeth for eating meat and short pointed ears that resemble those of a wolf. Orcish snouts and ears have a slightly pink tinge. Their eyes are human, with a reddish tint that sometimes makes them appear to glow red when they reflect dim light sources in near darkness. This is actually part of their optical system, a pigment which gives them infravision. Male orcs are about 5½ to 6 feet tall. Females average 6 inches shorter than males.




3e was pictures only, hobgoblins have yellow skin and orcs are green skinned.

3.5 MM says:



> Hobgoblins’ hair color ranges from dark reddish-brown to dark gray. They have dark orange or red-orange skin. Large males have blue or red noses. Hobgoblins’ eyes are yellowish or dark brown, while their teeth are yellow.
> 
> An orc’s hair usually is black. It has lupine ears and reddish eyes. . . . An adult male orc is a little over 6 feet tall and weighs about 210 pounds. Females are slightly smaller.




In the 4e MM:



> A member of the goblin species has skin of yellow, orange, or red, often shading to brown. Its eyes have the same color variance; its hair is always dark.Big, pointed ears stick out from the sides of the head, and prominent sharp teeth sometimes jut from the mouth. Males have coarse body hair and might grow facial hair.
> 
> [orcs only get pictures, black/gray skinned]




In the 4e Monster Vault:



> [L]arge and pointed ears, a prominent jaw filled with sharp teeth, a small nose, and dark hair. Their skin might be any shade of green, yellow, or orange, with . . . hobgoblins [tending] to orange that can be nearly red.
> 
> [orcs again get only pictures




In the 5e MM:



> Hobgoblins have dark orange or red-orange skin, and hair ranging from dark red-brown to dark gray. Yellow or dark brown eyes peer out beneath their beetling brows, and their wide mouths sport sharp and yellowed teeth. A male hobgoblin might have a large blue or red nose, which symbolizes virility and power among goblinkin.
> 
> Orcs are savage raiders and pillagers with stooped postures, low foreheads, and piggish faces with prominent lower canines that resemble tusks.




In the 5e Basic Rules:


> Hobgoblins are large goblinoids with dark orange or red-orange skin.
> 
> Orcs are savage humanoids with stooped postures, piggish faces, and prominent teeth that resemble tusks.




In pathfinder:



> [hobgoblin]Standing as tall as a human, this muscular, gray-skinned creature peers about with tiny, observant eyes. . . . A hobgoblin stands 5 feet tall and weighs 160 pounds.
> 
> [orc]This savage creature looks like a bestial version of a savage human, with green-gray skin and greasy black hair. . . . An adult male orc is roughly 6 feet tall and 210 pounds.


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## Nifft (Aug 1, 2015)

The difference should be obvious.

Hobgoblins are orange.

Orcs are green.


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## steeldragons (Aug 1, 2015)

Nifft said:


> The difference should be obvious.
> 
> Hobgoblins are orange.
> 
> Orcs are green.




Should be more obvious than that!

Orcs have great big piggish snouts [Don't give a crap how many "noble savage"-pug-nosed-BS orcs WotC kicks out].

Hobgoblins do not.


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## N'raac (Aug 2, 2015)

Nifft said:


> The difference should be obvious.
> 
> Hobgoblins are orange.
> 
> Orcs are green.




OoTS for the win!


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## Weiley31 (Dec 18, 2021)

I always base the Hobgoblins on the Klingons from Star Trek, attitude wise.


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## glass (Dec 18, 2021)

In my campaign (my homebrew world of Pelhorin):

Both have the same range of skin colours, although green is the most common colour for orcs and very rare for hobgoblins, whereas orange or reddish skin is common for hobgoblins but very rare for orcs. Grey or olive skin is reasonably common but not predominant for both. Hair is usually black if they have any, although hobgoblins are more likely to have hair.

Orcs might have slightly-more-prominent teeth that are suggestive of tusks, or they might have full-on tusks. Hobgoblins have nothing of the sort.

Aside from that, orcs tend to be bulkier than hobgoblins at the same height.

(All sapient species in my homebrew world that have more than a small localised population have a wide variety of appearances, which necesarily means some overlap).

_
glass.


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## GreyLord (Dec 19, 2021)

My take is that it depends on the Campaign being run (in which case the real difference is the HP and the looks), but in general I find that it is...

1.  Orcs are more like Cattle (at least initially, NOT the racial identifiers some try to use in this thread, though perhaps it is true in regards to 3e to 5e.  The connection to derogatory racial ideas in 3e and 5e are very problematic, but that's not the initial idea of Orcs) or demonspawn (from the ideas of being either bred or spawned from evil from the Tolkien LotR trilogy, which is where I feel the Orc monster ideas originally came from).

Orcs appear like rabbits, and band together like many other monsters or creatures into tribes and groups.  However, because they are more like Cattle or herd animals, they are very easy for Villains to take control of and use as their minions.  Orcs are intially rather chaotic in nature, and tend to do things that many others would find vile (or evil), but are easily sway-able and thus many Villains try to get them for armies as fodder.

Having them come at you is like a stampede of cattle (which is EXTREMELY dangerous if you've ever been in that situation), or the untamed bull in the field (Bulls can also be VERY dangerous, and very aggressive) on a more individual arena.

2.  Hobgoblins are more like Army Ants.   Very militant in many ways, but also very driven to do  their basic thing.  Unfortunately, that thing involves conquest many times.  They too can be utilized by others, but it is normally more of a top down thing where the villain controls the leaders rather than like the Shepard or cowboy controlling the herd/flock.

As an army they can be a persistent force of nature, consuming everything in their path.

3.  In Pathfinder 1e Orcs vary greatly between each other.  In general, the differences as put in the Bestiary state



> the primary difference between orcs and the civilized humanoids is their attitude.  As a culture, orcs are violent and aggressive, with the strongest ruling the rest through fear and brutality.




Meanwhile Hobgoblins are



> ...militaristic and fecund, a combination that makes them quite dangerous in some regions....
> 
> ....Of all the goblinoid races, the hobgoblin is by far the most civilized



I think this actually reflects in many ways the more traditional ways of looking at Orcs and Hobgoblins from the past than more recent ideas about them.


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## Tonguez (Dec 19, 2021)

As depictions of Orcs have become more and more 'humanish' they have started to converge with Hobgoblins to the point that honestly they dont have any real physiological differences, they tend to just be cultural variations of the same 'devolved subhuman' model.

which is another reason why I prefer Orcs to be actually Boar-headed humanoids, on that furry beast-man spectrum with wolfman gnolls and bull headed minotaurs. Then Gobs and Hobs get the subhuman gig


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## Thomas Shey (Dec 21, 2021)

I personally always picture hobgoblins being taller and leaner and orcs a little shorter and distinctly bulkier.  I don't remember if the 2e specs seem to back that up.


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## Tonguez (Dec 21, 2021)

Thomas Shey said:


> I personally always picture hobgoblins being taller and leaner and orcs a little shorter and distinctly bulkier.  I don't remember if the 2e specs seem to back that up.



Orcs in FR 2e at least are described as _usually over 6 ft_, _230‒280 lb_ while hobgoblins are described as _5‒6 ft, 150‒200 lb_

Orcs however are usually depicted as stooped while Hobgoblins stand upright


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## Thomas Shey (Dec 21, 2021)

Tonguez said:


> Orcs in FR 2e at least are described as _usually over 6 ft_, _230‒280 lb_ while hobgoblins are described as _5‒6 ft, 150‒200 lb_
> 
> Orcs however are usually depicted as stooped while Hobgoblins stand upright




Honestly, I was thinking of the PF versions anyway.


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