# Best FR Paperback Novel?



## HiLiphNY (Nov 18, 2004)

Just wondering what are some of the better Forgotten Realms Paperbacks out there - I'd like to pick up some fluff to read, but would like to avoid the absolute drivel.

Thanks!


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## diaglo (Nov 18, 2004)

start with The Crystal Shard.

avoid anything from Ed Greenwood


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## IronWolf (Nov 18, 2004)

You will probably get a whole range of opinions on this one, very few agreeing on one novel  I don't think I could even call one novel the best from the amount of available FR novels.

I could highly recommend anything by Elaine Cunningham.  I have enjoyed everyone of her novels.  Maybe start with Elfshadow?  You can see what she has written here:

http://www.elainecunningham.com/


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## Brakkart (Nov 18, 2004)

Definately not an Ed Greenwood novel. He may have created the Forgotten Realms, but as a novelist he leaves a lot to be desired. Having said that, he praised The Last Mythal by Richard Baker as being one of the best Realms books he had ever read, and I pretty much have to agree with him.

Elaine Cunningham should be made to write Realms books for the rest of her life, she is that good at them. Elfshadow is her first and still probably the best (not read her Magehound trilogy or Evermeet yet). Others I'd recommend are:

The Parched Sea by Troy Denning
Red Magic by Jean Rabe
Crypt of the Shadowking & Curse of the Shadowmage by Mark Anthony
The Rage (Year of Rogue Dragons book 1) by Richard Lee Byers


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## glass (Nov 18, 2004)

I feel the I should defend Ed Greenwood a little here. Admittedly, some of his novels have been less than stellar (I'm looking at you, _Crown of Fire_), but I thought _Cormyr: A Novel_ was excellent.


glass.


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## Faraer (Nov 18, 2004)

Your first Realms novel should certainly be by the man who created the Realms and is its continual inspiration and wellspring, rather than the latterday interpretation of some other writer. As you'd expect, the essence and spirit of the setting is richer in his work than in other authors', not to mention breadth of vision and depth of human spirit; anyone advising you otherwise is just out of sympathy with the Realms. As an introduction, _Spellfire_ is unsurpassed.







			
				Brakkart said:
			
		

> He may have created the Forgotten Realms, but as a novelist he leaves a lot to be desired.



I don't believe you can make that case. You may not like his work, but it's technically excellent.


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## Felonious Ntent (Nov 18, 2004)

Shouldn't this be in the Fantasy & Sci-Fi Books, Movies & TV  forum?


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## Mystery Man (Nov 18, 2004)

Read everything by Ed Greenwood first.  Frankly no one can capture the flavor of the Realms better than him. Elaine Cunningham is top notch so pick her books up as well.


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## CrusaderX (Nov 18, 2004)

Go with the Drizzt books for light entertainment.  Greenwood's books are spectacularly awful, in a MST3K movie kind of way.  Cunningham's writing is boring and cliched and terribly overrated.  

All IMO, of course.


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## Wraith Form (Nov 18, 2004)

Mystery Man said:
			
		

> Read everything by Ed Greenwood first. Frankly no one can capture the flavor of the Realms better than him. Elaine Cunningham is top notch so pick her books up as well.



I agree with both of these comments, although Greenwood's writing style is often hit or miss--his splatbooks are a good indication of his novel-writing style. Having said that, I have to echo a previous post that _Cormyr: A Novel_ (with help from Jeff Grubb) was quite the awesome read.

Oh, and Greenwood is quite obviously a dirty old man. There's more T&A in 3 pages of a Greenwood novel than in 12 of Penthouse _Letters_. (wink)

Not enough praise can be given about Cunningham's work--it's subtle and intelligent.

The Drizzt novels are fun, too.

I often find that Troy Denning's novels are crap-tacular, and Mel Odom is forever banned from my "library".

'Course, I read the FR novels several years ago--often when they first came out--and I can't guarantee how refined your tastes might be compared to mine back then.  (Hey, I was a youngster!)


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## Desdichado (Nov 18, 2004)

I remember thinking the original Salvatore Icewind Dale books were pretty good, although generally I'm not much of a Salvatore fan.  Some of his other books are not nearly so good; the Cleric Quintent has much better cover art than interior text.

I once tried to read a Greenwood novel; Spellfire, I think?  I got turned off by it within the first two or three pages.  Although to be fair, that may well have been a victim of circumstance as much as anything else.

I read the first book of the Avatar trilogy, and thought it abysmal.

In fact,  FR fiction is a big part of the reason I have such a low esteem for game fiction in general.  I remember thinking the Rokugan novels were pretty good, though.  At least the first ones.

Does it have to be FR that we recommend?  

I'm also crossing my fingers for the Eberron novels; I'll pick them up and give'em a try just on the strength of the setting and its themes.


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## psyronin (Nov 18, 2004)

Yeah, avoid anything by Ed Greenwood. Never have I been made to _wish_ for the protagonists' deaths. And Bruce Cordell seems to be the second coming of Greenwood when it comes to prose. I got his "Lady of Poison" and I can only stomach a few pages a day.

My #1 recommendation is "Twilight Falling" by Paul S. Kemp. Other good books IMO are:
"Prince of Lies" by James Lowder
"Rising Tide" by Mel Odom
"Servant of the Shard" by R. A. Salvatore
"The Ogre's Pact" by Troy Denning


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## Faraer (Nov 18, 2004)

If someone asks to recommend a novel (in general) to read, advising against any one author is just petty: better to focus on what you do recommend.

In this case: Some people don't like Ed's writing. Those that do, appreciate it greatly. As you would expect, Ed's novels in the world he's known for decades and can tour effortlessly in his head are in a different league from other authors doing work-for-hire there. To recommend someone *not* to read them amounts to an irresponsible attempt to deny them the chance to find something they might love. It's like someone who found _The Lord of the Rings_ too slow recommending that other people stick to the films and the video games.







			
				Wraith Form said:
			
		

> (wink)



Where the wink signifies that this is an outright falsehood.


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## Wraith Form (Nov 18, 2004)

Faraer said:
			
		

> Where the wink signifies that this is an outright falsehood.



Actually, where the wink indicates that characters get very naked, somewhat often.

...Although I was using exaggeration as a form of sarcastic irony.

I've read 90% of the Greenwood books--FR or not--and I recall every book at least one character seems to strip (for some reason or other) or sleep with another character.  Hey, whatever...it's not graphic as much as it's...kinda jarring.


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## Faraer (Nov 18, 2004)

Yeah, I guessed so. The false bit is the Chinese-whispers 'Ed's a dirty old man' canard, based on perceptions of some of his fictional characters, which I've heard often enough (occasionally venomously) that it's obviously plausible to some people. Damn, I can't find the screed Elaine Cunningham wrote about this.

The relatively free sexual behaviour probably seems jarring because TSR and Wizards have downplayed the fact that the Realms' sexual mores are not our own. You'll be less jarred if you read Ed's discussion of this on his thread on the candlekeep.com boards (try Kuje's compilation).


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## J_D (Nov 18, 2004)

It's not really possible to answer the question of which is "best" without specifying what specific criteria you're interested in.  Since these are game novels -- novels set in a game world, more criteria may be applied than a standard novel.

* Quality of plot/story
* Style in which story is written
* Quality of characterization of the characters in the novel
* How well it portrays the flavor or style of the gaming world in general
* How much world lore it contains (i.e. NPC's, culture, history, food & drink, any other tidbits of info about the game world)

Personally, given that we are talking about game novels, I think that the last criteria -- that of world lore present -- is at least tied for #1 criterion, if not the single #1 criterion.  If a FR novel contains lots of Realmslore that fills in more detail not provided in game books, then it's a good novel even if the story sucks or the style in which it's written sucks.  In my opinion, the quality and/or style of the story _at best_ only ties world lore in importance and _never_ exceeds it.

Whatever else anyone may think of Ed Greenwood's writing, his books are always chock full of Realmslore which means they are always good books as Realms fiction even if the story isn't great in some people's opinions.


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## DaveMage (Nov 18, 2004)

My favorite FR Novel(s) are the 2nd Drizzt trilogy: Homeland/Exile/Sojourn.

If you're just looking for D&D fluff, though, I'd recommend the Paul Kidd Greyhawk novels, especially White Plume Mountain.  It was a hoot.


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## Mystery Man (Nov 18, 2004)

Faraer said:
			
		

> The relatively free sexual behaviour probably seems jarring because TSR and Wizards have downplayed the fact that the Realms' sexual mores are not our own. You'll be less jarred if you read Ed's discussion of this on his thread on the candlekeep.com boards (try Kuje's compilation).



I like the find Alustriel in the community bath section.


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## Arnwyn (Nov 18, 2004)

HiLiphNY said:
			
		

> Just wondering what are some of the better Forgotten Realms Paperbacks out there - I'd like to pick up some fluff to read, but would like to avoid the absolute drivel.



Well... good luck with that!


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## megamania (Nov 18, 2004)

I'm seeing a lot of "Read this" or "Don't read this" but no reasons.

Greenwood-  I find his writing very dry.  His Elminister book was tough to claw through but his ideas are not bad.

RA SAlvatore-  I personally love his stuff.  It is reader easy and great moments of laughter but at the same time very serious.  When watching LoTR with the elf and dwarf I could only think of Drizzt and Wulfgar.

Kate Novak / Jeff Grubb-  This was my first "DnD" authors and I still enjoy Azure Bonds.  Great humor and good stories.  I'm not so sure on how well it fits into the mainstream FR lore.

Elaine Cunningham-  I have yet to read but have most of her FR books.  Seems like when I've reached her books I go for something other than fantasy.  Go figure.,

Troy Denning-  I thourghly enjoyed his work in Darksun and have read only one FR book by him.  The parched Sea was very good however.

Other books that were good by authors we rarely seem to hear from include Jean Rabe (Red Magic) and Mel Odem's Rising Tide wasn't bad.  It bridged the gap between 2.0 and 3.0 well introducing many of the 3.0 ideas.

I'm sure there are others but there I have only read authors of other campaign worlds.

Hope this helps.


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## Desdichado (Nov 18, 2004)

Here's a related question, because I could probably put up with some less than stellar writing to get the requisite "Realmslore" -- what novels focus on Thay or the Red Wizards?


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## IronWolf (Nov 18, 2004)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> Here's a related question, because I could probably put up with some less than stellar writing to get the requisite "Realmslore" -- what novels focus on Thay or the Red Wizards?




Red Magic by Jean Rabe


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## Desdichado (Nov 18, 2004)

Faraer said:
			
		

> The relatively free sexual behaviour probably seems jarring because TSR and Wizards have downplayed the fact that the Realms' sexual mores are not our own. You'll be less jarred if you read Ed's discussion of this on his thread on the candlekeep.com boards (try Kuje's compilation).



I'm not in the least interested in the sexual mores of the Realms (which aren't as alien as you're making them out to be), but thanks for that link!  I've been ploughing through it for a while, and am quite enjoying Ed's comments on world-building!


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## Kyrail (Nov 18, 2004)

R.A. Salvetore- The Dark Elf Trilogy, and the Cleric Quintent are both good.  Dark Elf probabley being his best work... the rest of his novels seem to be very common fair, as if he can't really develope Drizzt's charecter any more than to throw more enemies at him.

The Avatar Trilogy is good too, deals with the time of troubles, the death and accension of gods.  Done by Troy Denning and Scott Ciencin.  Oddly enough I couldn't tell much differant between their writing styles so it flows well.


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## kuje31 (Nov 18, 2004)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> Here's a related question, because I could probably put up with some less than stellar writing to get the requisite "Realmslore" -- what novels focus on Thay or the Red Wizards?




The Crimson Gold by Voronica Whitney-Robinson

Also I'm glad people like my file from Ed.  Yes it could probably use some editing and organization but hey I cut and paste them in the order he answers us. I also update that file  weekly.


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## Eremite (Nov 18, 2004)

DaveMage said:
			
		

> (snip) If you're just looking for D&D fluff, though, I'd recommend the Paul Kidd Greyhawk novels, especially White Plume Mountain.  It was a hoot.




Here's another vote for Paul Kidd's Greyhawk novels. They were great.

I'm not a big fan of FR novels but thought that the Crystal Shard and Cormyr were both pretty good. Paul Kemp and Elaine Cunningham are very good writers and their books are normally worth reading.


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## PieAndDragon (Nov 19, 2004)

My recommendations would be:

- Parched Sea by Troy Denning
- The Dark Elf Trilogy By Salvatore
- Prince of Lies [Sequel to the Avatar Trilogy]

Duncan


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## Christopher Lambert (Nov 19, 2004)

I'm not sure who wrote the Erevis Cale trilogy, but go for it. It's really good. I think only the first book is available yet. There aren't any super-NPCs to save the day in this one.

I didn't like Black Boquet quite as much.

I have mixed opinions on Elaine Cunningham's work. I liked some of her books, like Daughter of the Drow and Elfsong (Elaith Craulnober done right). I didn't like Tangled Web, though (the sequel to Daughter of the Drow).

Greenwood's work is less stellar, IMO. A lot of it looked suspiciously like written pornography to me. Let me see if I have this straight, elven women are taking off their clothes, grabbing Elminster's hand and making him grope them. WTF? And if that's bad, the Storm novels are worse! I guess someone forgot to tell him Storm's fire immunity extends to her clothing.

I preferred reading _The Kingless Land_ although it has that same warning. At least it's more realistic in that regard, and it doesn't have ridiculously high-level NPCs stealing the thunder, either.

Salvatore's work is pretty good, and despite the heavy emphasis on drow and Drizzt is actually not annoying. (Even so, I was cheering for Artemis the whole time.) Other people ruined the drow.


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## Sunderstone (Nov 19, 2004)

Please dont hurt me....

I liked Doug Niles' Moonshae Trilogies. Of course way back then I was a fan of the region as well.
TBH, I find anything not on par with George RR Martin, Greg Keyes, Terry Goodkind, Orson Scott Card, etc hard to "claw" through


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## Shazman (Nov 19, 2004)

Well, you can't go wrong with the avatar trilogy (Shadowdale, Tantras, and Waterdeep).  The hunter's blade triology (the thousand orcs, the lone drow, and the two swords) by salvatore is really good too.  The best two that I've read in teh last year are The Alabaster Staff and The Black Boquet.  I alsmost forgot The Rage and The War of the Spider Queen Series.  There's defintiely too many FR books to pick just one.


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## takyris (Nov 19, 2004)

I'll step up and offer my dramatically unoriginal opinions.

Elaine Cunningham, focusing on the ones with Arilyn and Danilo (or one or the other).  I'm constantly impressed by her dialogue, and by her ability to have something approaching a fun, smile-inducing romance story in a gaming fiction novel.

R.A. Salvatore for the fight scenes.  That's not a slam on my part -- I love good fight scenes and hate bad fight scenes, and my bar is set high.  His early stuff in particular (the Crystal Shard, and then tread lightly from that point on) is just wonderful at conveying just the right amount of information and letting your imagination fill in the details.

I've had good experiences wth others as well, but those are the ones who've written enough for me to really get into the "Oh, that's by him/her?  Sure, I'll try that," mode.


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## PaulKemp (Nov 19, 2004)

Christopher Lambert said:
			
		

> I'm not sure who wrote the Erevis Cale trilogy, but go for it. It's really good. I think only the first book is available yet. There aren't any super-NPCs to save the day in this one.





Paul S. Kemp wrote the Cale trilogy, and the first two books are out:  Twilight Falling, and Dawn of Night.


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## diaglo (Nov 19, 2004)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> Here's a related question, because I could probably put up with some less than stellar writing to get the requisite "Realmslore" -- what novels focus on Thay or the Red Wizards?




*IronWolf* has you covered.

also the Elminster Shadows of the Avatar trilogy has a sprinkling 

and the Simbul novel.

and one of the Horde books but i forget which one.


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## diaglo (Nov 19, 2004)

PaulKemp said:
			
		

> Paul S. Kemp wrote the Cale trilogy, and the first two books are out:  Twilight Falling, and Dawn of Night.





iirc, he posts here on ENWorld too.


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## PaulKemp (Nov 19, 2004)

diaglo said:
			
		

> iirc, he posts here on ENWorld too.




I believe you are correct, sir.


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## diaglo (Nov 19, 2004)

the reason i said to avoid Ed Greenwood's work...

has to do with the criteria *HiLiphNY* posted in the original thread starter.

much of the mechanics and details as to how things work in game and in novels are... shall we say left up to the imagination. and with the novels being spread over multiple editions... heck Ed started the Forgotten Realms in 1967 or 68... the confusion gets even more compounded.

he does have nekked people. and he does have many deus ex machina. but that is part of the charm of his stories.


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## valeren (Nov 19, 2004)

I got into reading the FR novels because of the Azure Bonds series by Kate Novak/Jeff Grubb.  Then came Drizzit and RA Salvatore.  Recently I'm inclined to say Richard Baker (The City of Ravens and Forsaken House) is one of the best.


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## Desdichado (Nov 19, 2004)

PaulKemp said:
			
		

> I believe you are correct, sir.



And you're from Grosse Point, too!  Are you coming to the Detroit Gameday?


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## PaulKemp (Nov 19, 2004)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> And you're from Grosse Point, too!  Are you coming to the Detroit Gameday?




I have newborn twins, so it's difficult for me to find much in the way of free time these days.  Tell you what, I'll try to at least swing by, if, in light of this...



			
				Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> In fact, FR fiction is a big part of the reason I have such a low esteem for game fiction in general.




...you agree to give my writing a read and evaluate it on its own merits.  Don't buy it.  Just get a libray copy.  Not too much to ask, is it?  You might find yourself surprised.  I am discouraged by people who dismiss "gaming fiction" out of hand.  As with non-gaming fiction, there is a mix of good and bad. But I've never yet heard anyone generalize from the particular to the general when it comes to non-gaming fantasy fiction -- "Man, that [insert author's name] novel blew major chunks.  Non-gaming fiction stinks."  Yet, the opposite is offered as though it were axiomatic.  It's not.  Evaluate it the way you would evaluate non-gaming fantasy fiction -- author by author.  

End mild screed.    

Anyway, I'll go check the Gameday thread.  If it's being held (like I think a previous one was) at Pandemonium on Middlebelt, I know right where that is.  I used to live in Garden City before moving to Grosse Pointe.  Bought a few gaming books from Pandemonium, I have.


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## Andre (Nov 19, 2004)

As others have said, tastes differ, so I'll just list the ones I've read and what I think of them.

_Spellfire_ by Ed Greenwood. Ever listen to someone in a game store drone on and on about his characters? That's what this book felt like. 

_Cormyr_ by Ed Greenwood and Jeff Grubb. Really two stories in one. A current problem (an assasination attempt on the king) and the history of Cormyr (which relates to the assasination). The book alternates between the two stories. I found the part about the assasination fairly tedious, but the history was fascinating, IMO. Worth the time to read.

Moonshae trilogy (_Darkwalker on Moonshae, Black Wizards, Darkwell_) by Douglas Niles. I loved this trilogy precisely because it read like a good fantasy trilogy, not a D&D story.

_Azure Bonds_ by Kate Novak and Jeff Grubb. Read this a long time ago and enjoyed it. Some interesting twists.

Icewind Dale trilogy (_The Crystal Shard, Streams of Silver, The Halfling's Gem_) by R.A. Salvatore. Read these years ago and also enjoyed them. Artemis Entreri is an despicable villain, Drizzt was new and interesting, and Bruenor is a great dwarf. IMO, the first book is the best of the three.

_Evermeet_ by Elaine Cunningham. Written in the same style as Cormyr, with alternating chapters covering a contemporary story and a history of the elves. As with Cormyr, I found the history more interesting, but the contemporary story isn't bad either. Highly recommended.

_Realms of the Underdark_, edited by J. Robert King. A collection of short stories. The only one that I still remember is "Rite of Passage" by Elaine Cunningham. Outstanding story about a drow coming of age. 

Threat from the Sea trilogy (_Rising Tide, Under Fallen Stars, The Sea Devil's Eye_) by Mel Odom. I read the first two and enjoyed them for their focus on sahuagin - the culture really comes across. Unfortunately, the third book wasn't published for another year or more, by which time I'd lost interest. One of these days I'll re-read the first two and pick up the third - I'm still curious how Odom ended the story.


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## Uruk (Nov 19, 2004)

I'll echo most everyone here by saying avoid Ed Greenwood like the plague.  I actually have almost every FR book up to about 2-3 years ago though I still have some to read.  I like anything by Mel Odom, lots of Douglas Niles and overall quite a few of the Harper books since they take you all over the place.  While I like Elain Cunningham, her books are really fantasy novels that just happen to use some FR locations.  Her one series focuses on a class that doesn't even exist in D&D (jordaini - magic resistant monks) and she uses the un/seelie court which doesn't really have much presence in any book.


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## Faraer (Nov 19, 2004)

Hm. I like Elaine's books because they *do* get the Realms pretty spot on; Ed remarked on reading _Elfshadow_ how Elaine had got Waterdeep just right. All sort of things are in the Realms that aren't in D&D, or weren't until the Realms put them there.

And the fact remains that recommending people not to read Ed's novels is exactly like recommending someone who wants to read about Middle-earth to stay clear of Tolkien.


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## Desdichado (Nov 19, 2004)

PaulKemp said:
			
		

> I have newborn twins, so it's difficult for me to find much in the way of free time these days.



I can see that.  Although I still gamed both the weeks my third and fourth kids were born!    Helped that my mother-in-law was in town to help out thought; frankly I was more in the way then helpful until she went out of twon again.


			
				PaulKemp said:
			
		

> Tell you what, I'll try to at least swing by, if, in light of this...  ...you agree to give my writing a read and evaluate it on its own merits.  Don't buy it.  Just get a libray copy.  Not too much to ask, is it?  You might find yourself surprised.



No such luck; the Canton Public Library doesn't have any of your books.  I'll buy one anyway; let me know which one you'd recommend I start with.


			
				PaulKemp said:
			
		

> I am discouraged by people who dismiss "gaming fiction" out of hand.  As with non-gaming fiction, there is a mix of good and bad. But I've never yet heard anyone generalize from the particular to the general when it comes to non-gaming fantasy fiction -- "Man, that [insert author's name] novel blew major chunks.  Non-gaming fiction stinks."  Yet, the opposite is offered as though it were axiomatic.  It's not.  Evaluate it the way you would evaluate non-gaming fantasy fiction -- author by author.



Fair enough.  Although I'm not generalizing based on a book or two; I've read dozens of game fiction novels over the years.  Although, indeed, some of them weren't bad, many of them were, and few of them were really impressively good.  Of course, the same can often be said of other licensed property fictions, like Star Wars novels or the like as well.  I think game (or other licensed property) fiction has its own set of difficulties above and beyond "regular" fiction; there's not as much flexibility for the author to change things to suit him, or if he does do so, he tends to "get the setting wrong" and create poorly concieved kitbashes of books, all the while ticking of legions of setting purists who don't like the new direction the author is trying to take it (New Jedi Order is a great example of this, and a major part of the reason I dislike Star Wars fiction in general.)  Gaming fiction also has the trap, although few good authors will fall into it, of not balancing the gameplay and the novels.  You don't want metagame elements intruding on your fiction (I despise novels that refer to characters by their class name, for instance -- and Rose Estes used to even say that characters couldn't cast spells because they weren't high enough level yet..     ) but the reverse problem; of making things happen in the novels that are completely inexplicable from the game mechanics standpoint, is just as bad.

I also think its difficult to write; authors (and their editors) are rarely very bold, because they don't want to significantly change the setting, and they also want to appeal to the existing audience as much as possible without doing anything that might alienate portions of them.

Another problem is that the books don't actually have to be that good to sell in big numbers; they merely have to include the requisite elements to draw out the fans of the setting, who will buy it regardless of the quality.  This, at least, is unique to game (and other licensed properties) fiction.  

So, no, I don't automatically write off game fiction, I just recognize that with those challenges, there will probably be fewer game fiction novels I like as opposed to non-game fiction novels.

That, and I also don't read much fiction at all anymore, but that's a different problem altogether.

Like I said, though, I'd be more than happy to read one of your books.  Tell me which one I should start with, and I'll try to pick it up either this weekend or early next week.


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## Desdichado (Nov 19, 2004)

Faraer said:
			
		

> And the fact remains that recommending people not to read Ed's novels is exactly like recommending someone who wants to read about Middle-earth to stay clear of Tolkien.



That's absolute rubbish.  Middle-earth is pretty much _only_ defined through Tolkien's work, but the Forgotten Realms as we know them were written by a committee at TSR, building off what Ed Greenwood sold them.  I've read plenty of statements out there that Ed's FR isn't the FR that gamers know, in many respects.

Not only that, nobody's disparaging Ed's knowledge of the setting, it's his writing style that many readers don't like (I personally can't comment, not having read more than a page or two of one of his novels.)

And not only that, most readers aren't reading to learn more about the setting, they're reading fiction because they want to read a good story.  If they don't like Ed's writing style, then they aren't going to like the book.  The setting isn't the story, it's just the backdrop wherein it takes place.


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## PaulKemp (Nov 19, 2004)

JoshuaDyal,

I understand your thinking on this now.  Your point is narrower than I had assumed.  My bad.  

An author of gaming fiction does face most of the constraints you mentioned, but so do authors who write in purely literary worlds, from the moment the "rules" of the world are established for the reader.  True, the writer who builds and writes in his own world does not inherit those rules, but he or she still faces constraints (albeit self-imposed).  This is particularly true for later books, when the rules of the world have been established for the reader.  Still, I agree with your overarching point.

I disagree, however, that a shared world/gaming fiction writer is disincentivized to be bold.  That simply depends on your definition of bold.  If you mean by "bold" that the plot must threaten the world, or otherwise change something universal and fundamental, then yes, a shared world/gaming fiction author is less likely to have that type of threat in his books.  But boldness can take other forms -- from personal transformation and growth, to the remaking of a city or region.  I've found that there's room for those kinds of things, at least in FR novels.

And, hey!  The Canton library doesn't have my books!?  Those bloody bastards!  I used to study within those very walls when  I was in law school.  Why I ought to....   

Twilight Falling is the title I would recommend.  It's book one of the Erevis Cale Trilogy.  Cale is my signature character, for whatever that's worth.  There are a couple of prequel Cale books, but getting those would involve a more substntial investment of time and money in a different series.  Twilight Falling stands alone very well, I think.  It makes reference to previous events, but reading of them firsthand is not necessary to (hopefully) enjoying the book.  

I hope you'll share your thoughts when your done.


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## Mystery Man (Nov 19, 2004)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> And not only that, most readers aren't reading to learn more about the setting, they're reading fiction because they want to read a good story. If they don't like Ed's writing style, then they aren't going to like the book. The setting isn't the story, it's just the backdrop wherein it takes place.



While this is true I would agree with Farear in that this person is looking for recomendations and to actively discourage this person is to potentially block him from something he may really like. I am not so bothered by the "don't read Ed" comments because I assume (and I hope rightly so) that most people can think for themselves.


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## Faraer (Nov 19, 2004)

The original _Forgotten Realms Campaign Set_ differs from Ed's Realms in a few well-known and relatively minor ways. Other than certain constraints imposed by TSR and WotC, Ed's novels are much as they'd be if he hadn't sold the setting to TSR. Ed is responsible for orders of magnitude more of the Realms than any other writer, and his continuing involvement (while other novelists and game authors come and go) means he's responsible for the basic feel of the setting -- so starting with a non-Ed book is bad advice because it won't give the most representative introduction that will be most closely followed by other Realms works.

I don't recommend people to read Ed's novels who don't like them, that would be silly. The possibility that a new reader wouldn't like them, a possibility which certainly isn't higher for Ed than for any other author, does not mean a new reader is not best advised to try them first.

I'd say a good secondary world is way more than a backdrop; certainly the Realms is designed to be more.


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## Cthulhudrew (Nov 19, 2004)

Uruk said:
			
		

> Her one series focuses on a class that doesn't even exist in D&D (jordaini - magic resistant monks)...




Just for the record, the Jordaini do exist (albeit now as a prestige class) in Halruaa. There's an article on the Wizards site- House Jordain of Halruaa- and I believe they also show up again in the recent "Shining South" book.

Can't comment on the Unseelie Court, but I do believe there is precendent for such in previous versions of the game (and I think I've even seen some mention of it in articles on the FR portion of the Wizards site.)


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## velm (Nov 20, 2004)

RING OF WINTER for the life of me, i cant remember who wrote it, but it was in the jungles of chult, had a nice villian, and was sorta like INDIANA JONES.


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## kuje31 (Nov 20, 2004)

velm said:
			
		

> RING OF WINTER for the life of me, i cant remember who wrote it, but it was in the jungles of chult, had a nice villian, and was sorta like INDIANA JONES.




James Lowder did and it's book 5 of the Harper series.


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## Snotlord (Nov 20, 2004)

*City of Ravens*

The City of Ravens by Richard Baker is my favorite FR novel so far. I was pleasantly surprised to see crunchmeister Baker produce a novel full of action, intrigue and romance with a swashbuckling rogue/wizard as the main character. The plot was kinda weak, but Baker obviously cared about his characters and I found myself drawn into the story. It reminded me a little bit about the Lankhmar books. 

Sadly no nudity, but I loved it still.


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## npiccini (Nov 21, 2004)

I for one enjoyed the Icewind Dale trilogy and pretty much all of Salvatore's books on Drizzt and company.  Although I have not caught all the way up to publication, I am thoroughly enjoying the War of the Spider Queen books.  I was delighted to read someone mentioned Raven's Bluff by Baker.  I poured through that book in a couple of hours and based an entire campaign session on the city's locale.  I thought that book stood alone (no three book committment  and was entertaining and kept your attention!  

I have to say Im surprised at all the anti-Ed Greenwood stuff.  I lvoed the Cormyr books with the assassination etc.  I found it really inspiring and a good setting backdrop for campaigning.  He is the only one if read that has really breathed richness and life into a region in such a thorough manner that little went unexplained.  Did his writing lack some of Salvatore's luster for gripping play-by-play battle? absolultely, but IMO he makes up for it with suspense and regal intrigue.  

On a related note, I was thrilled when the Hunter's Blade trilogy started two (?) years ago, but now, I havent even gotten out and bought the third edition.  It seems its time to retire Drizzt in all his glory.  He has become far and away an unbeatable character in the Realms and it seems Salvatore is trying to find new ways for him to become interesting.  In this series he has single-handedly defeated hundreds of enemies, and although I havent read the conclusion, I am convinced he is prepared to take down the remainder of the Orc/Giant army by himself.


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## FCWesel (Nov 21, 2004)

I too like the Salvatore stuff, but I like thre Cleric Quintet probably best of his stuff. I love Ivan and Pikel. Of the latest trilogy, I think books two and three have fallen short of the quality of the first books by a far margin. I really look forward to his next effort with Jarlaxel and Artemis (he's got two more books with them planned right now) as I am curious as to how he can make these not-good-guys get what is coming to them (kharmically) without making it a "punish-downer-fest".

I LOVED Raven's Bluff. It is by far the absolute funnest of the Realms novels. Great characters and priceless moments (I love the mouse scene), the the over all story was a tad weak, I will admit.

Hated, hated, hated the "avatar series".

I am not a fan of Greenwood, though Cormyr was not too bad.

I liked the first MOONSHAE series a lot, but its probably not a good example of "the realms" as its a location thing...the second was simply stinkypoop on toast.


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## Yuan-Ti (Nov 21, 2004)

DaveMage said:
			
		

> My favorite FR Novel(s) are the 2nd Drizzt trilogy: Homeland/Exile/Sojourn.




Great books!


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## Selvarin (Nov 22, 2004)

Elaine Cunningham's good, although the Magehound trilogy wasn't my cup of tea. Richard Baker's good, so is Mel Odom. Salvatore still has his moments, although the continuing effort to de-superfy Drizzt (while laudable) doesn't do much for me. I don't worship at the Altar of Ed but he's also had one or two books that were okay. Also, the first Moonshae trilogy was great although the second trilogy wasn't.


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## diaglo (Nov 22, 2004)

Faraer said:
			
		

> The original _Forgotten Realms Campaign Set_ differs from Ed's Realms in a few well-known and relatively minor ways. Other than certain constraints imposed by TSR and WotC, Ed's novels are much as they'd be if he hadn't sold the setting to TSR. Ed is responsible for orders of magnitude more of the Realms than any other writer, and his continuing involvement (while other novelists and game authors come and go) means he's responsible for the basic feel of the setting -- so starting with a non-Ed book is bad advice because it won't give the most representative introduction that will be most closely followed by other Realms works.
> 
> I don't recommend people to read Ed's novels who don't like them, that would be silly. The possibility that a new reader wouldn't like them, a possibility which certainly isn't higher for Ed than for any other author, does not mean a new reader is not best advised to try them first.
> 
> I'd say a good secondary world is way more than a backdrop; certainly the Realms is designed to be more.




i think you'd better look again. by orders of magnitude... RA Salvatore and Elaine Cunningham's books bury Ed's. Bob and Elaine were both on the NY Times best seller list. Bob multiple times.

if you want people to play and know the Realms you really should recommend books to nongamers as much as you do to gamers.


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## Faraer (Nov 22, 2004)

In terms of sales, Ed's books do at least as well as Elaine's; Bob's are well above all the other Realms fiction.

My recommendation is not to gamers particularly. As specifically 'Realms novels', Ed's are definitive, and are certainly the ones to start with in order to get the best feel for the world. As novels that happen to be set in the Realms, I judge Ed's books to be better than the other Realms novels I've read. While I've liked Realms novels by others, it would be disinformation to recommend a non-Ed book as a starting point.


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## Desdichado (Nov 22, 2004)

Faraer said:
			
		

> While I've liked Realms novels by others, it would be disinformation to recommend a non-Ed book as a starting point.



For you, because you like the books, as you've stated.  Yet surely, it does cross your mind that someone else can not like Ed's writing, and it doesn't have to offend you personally that they don't, and therefore they don't recommend his writing?


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## Faraer (Nov 22, 2004)

Of course. What I mean there is that you only have one chance to read a first novel set in some particular world, and that first exposure will tend to bias and inform your later contact with that world, so it's a choice to be made with care; and if one finds that one likes Ed's books, one gets that, the best prose-fiction introduction to the Realms, *and* a complete synergy with the setting -- the depth of themes and textures developed over decades -- not possible elsewhere. So I think my advice is logical, personal liking aside -- reading the original first is just good sense.

I think recommending a second Realms book is a much more open question. _Elfshadow_, _Cormyr_. _Elminster's Daughter_, _The Halls of Stormweather_, any of the _Realms of_ short story collections, the Grubb/Novak books, one of Paul Kemp's, _Forsaken House_, would be among my picks. I liked the Bob Salvatore books I've read, but I don't really see them as Realms novels -- they're very much their own thing.


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## Desdichado (Nov 22, 2004)

Although some of Salvatore's FR novels are the only one's I've ever read, with the exception of the first book in the Avatar trilogy.  Unless I'm forgetting something I read years ago, which is certainly possible...  I guess I just don't know my Realms!  

Actually, that'd be a true enough statement...


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## Vraille Darkfang (Nov 22, 2004)

OK.  I'll try to add soemthing new to this thread (from a gaming perspective).  (I've read all the FR books, even Murder in Haluraa, & the Endless Quest (?) Spaen of Dragonspear).

First.  I like Ed's books.  He has a very unique writing style I find refeshing after reading a bunch of stuff that tends to have the same to identical styles.  In fact if you gave me a writing sample & asked me to identify the writer, Ed's the only one I know for sure I'd get right.  That said, I've never read more than 2 Ed Greenwood books in a row & I admit his style might wear thin after a while.  As you can tell, Ed's style tends to leave a love or hate reaction behind.  

I'd recommend picking up The Best of The Realms Anthology.  See if there is an author you really like.  It also has a very typical Ed Greenwood Story (Elminster at the Magefair I think).

Now if you want to read stuff from a D&D perspective, I'd stick with the newer releases.  For the last few years I've noticed a tread in the newer novels (such as those of the Rogues series & the Scions of Arrabar Trilogy) to write "D&D".  I mean I've noticed entire breaks in the action to stick in a breif paragraph about how soldier so & so feels this various effect that he either fights off or doesn't or how some mage gets bumped, thus loses her "Concentration" and has her spell feel.  Really, the past few FR novels I've read feel more like I'm reading Flavor Text from the FRCS than a novel.  Not a complaint, just an observation.

From a history perspective:

1. Anything orginally published before the orginal publication of the Avatar Trilogy is based on the 1st Edition rules of the D&D Game.

2. Around 2000 or so novels are based on the 3rd ed rules.

3.  Ed & Salvatore have more than enough pull to ignore the rules so their works often don't remotely work in gameplay (especially D&D attempts to put the story ideas into D&D rule form; See 2nd edition Spellfire)

Later,

PS, I got a list of FR novels someplace,


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## Mystery Man (Nov 22, 2004)

Faraer said:
			
		

> I liked the Bob Salvatore books I've read, but I don't really see them as Realms novels -- they're very much their own thing.



There are some who would be outraged by that statement , but it pretty much sums up in one sentence exactly what I could never put my finger on what bugged me about the Salvatore novels.  



> Unless I'm forgetting something I read years ago, which is certainly possible... I guess I just don't know my Realms!
> 
> Actually, that'd be a true enough statement...



Well if you wanted to know, read The Making of a Mage and you will. You can probably check it out at your local library.


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## knitnerd (Nov 23, 2004)

*The Rage*



			
				Brakkart said:
			
		

> Definately not an Ed Greenwood novel. He may have created the Forgotten Realms, but as a novelist he leaves a lot to be desired. Having said that, he praised The Last Mythal by Richard Baker as being one of the best Realms books he had ever read, and I pretty much have to agree with him.
> 
> Elaine Cunningham should be made to write Realms books for the rest of her life, she is that good at them. Elfshadow is her first and still probably the best (not read her Magehound trilogy or Evermeet yet). Others I'd recommend are:
> 
> ...




I really enjoyed The Rage. Can't wait for the next one.


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## Duncan Haldane (Nov 23, 2004)

*Realms novels - the good, the bad, the terrible....*

There are many, many books in the FR, as we all know, with dozens of different authors giving it a try.

And the quality varies dramatically too, in my opinion.

Some background - until about three years ago I bought all FR novels.  I started buying them in the late 80s, and the first I read was Darkwalker on Moonshaes - the first in the Moonshaes Trilogy by Doug Niles.  The second was the Crystal Shard, by RA Salvatore.

I remember that I bought Darkwalker about the same time as I bought the original FR boxed set.  I remember it was all very exciting (both novel and boxed set), and I really loved the feel of this new world.

Since that time I've read over one hundred more novels set in the same world, and bought far too many products - I have a nearly-complete set of 2nd ed FR material.

Why did I stop buying the FR novels?  Good question...  I spent three months travelling through Europe in 2002, and read a lot in that time.  As most of it was in non-english countries I had to take what books I could get.  I read quite a lot of books, most fantasy but not all, that I had not had time to read when all I could read with my spare time was FR novels.  And I found that I was enjoying these varied titles and styles much more than I had been enjoying FR for a while.  And so I decided to read more books than just FR, and I think it was a good decision.

The Good -  Depends on your preference of story...
- Major Campaign storylines - Evermeet, Cormyr, Death of the Dragon are all good, important stories.  Prince of Lies and Crucible are also realms-important

- Character pieces - Daughter of the Drow, The Homeland/Exile/Sojourn trilogy (quite introspective, looking at the whole creation of Drizzt, and how he came to leave the Underdark and meet his companions of later novels).

- Good Stories - The Twilight Giants trilogy by Troy Denning (one comment I have about Denning's works - he seems to have trouble leaving characters behind - we often see his characters from other novels making guest appearances, which I found annoying).  There are also many good stories within the open-ended many-authored groups, such as The Harpers and Nobles.

-  Good Fun - Icewind Dale trilogy by Salvatore.  Finder's Stone series by Novak and Grubb.  The Moonshaes trilogy by Niles.

The Bad
Ed Greenwoods novels I find unenjoyable most of the time.  This is sad for me to say, as Ed is a really nice guy, but I find I often feel like I am missing something from his scenes, and this is especially true when Elminster is using Magic, as I often find the description of his spells just doesn't let me know what spell has actually been cast, which I find annoying).  I would like to point out that Spellfire was editted to reduce it to the standard 300 (and a bit) pages, and that Ed was extremely unhappy about the hatchet job done with that editting.

The Maztica Trilogy - The biggest problem I have with this is the ripping-off of the story of the spanish invading south america.  Of course, it seems that anything that occured in Maztica is no longer of concern to the Realms, it seems to have fallen off the planet.

Empires Trilogy - An attempt to like Kara-tur with mainstream FR, and throwing in The Horselords for good measure.  As with Maztica, this suffers, IMO, from the stolen real-world stories problem.  I read fantasy to get something new, not a rehash, sanitised take on history.  And like Maztica, it seems that this part of Faerun has also fallen off the planet.

The Cleric Quintet - This was a strange series for me.  I LOVED the first novel - lots of fun adventure, very low-powered characters, interesting battles.  I enjoyed the second book.  The characters had gained some new abilities, met with new allies and faced new opponents.  The third book was ok - the characters were now getting towards mid-levels of power.  The fourth book I didn't enjoy - the characters were now quite powerful.  And the fifth book was awful, IMO.  The characters seemed god-like in their abilities, and I hated every page.

For myself I wouldn't bother with Anthologies.  In each that I bought I read a couple of stories from Authors I knew with characters I liked, but most of the stories were unread.  But then, I just don't seem to enjoy books of short stories.

The Terrible
The Avatar Trilogy, while a major campaign story for the FR (changing from 1st to 2nd Ed AD&D), was very badly executed, IMO.  The characters felt like that had been created by commitee, with little depth to them, and were quite the stereotypes.  The importance of events occuring during the setting of these books just didn't seem to fit with the significance of the novels themselves.  The novels were listed as being written by Richard Awlinson, which was a pseudonym for three authors (All-In-One), each writing one title.  I think any of them could have written much better if any one of the three authors had written each title.

Shadow of the Avatar trilogy - this is a series of events that occur alongside the events in the Avatar trilogy.  I can't really explain how/why, but I just never got these novels.  Throughout all of them I felt like I was missing something that everyone else understood.

The Unbelievably bad, the worst books I've read...
Anything by Brian Thomsen.  He stole Ed Greenwood's character Volo (Ed had written a number of travel guides by Volo that were excellent material), and put him into other well-known stories.  Journey Around The Realms was just Around The World in Eighty Days, and The Mage in the Iron Mask was just The Man in the Iron Mask.  Both these novels were excrutiating to read.  They were full of very bad puns (worse than Piers Anthony at his worst), and stories that were so unoriginal the author should have been sued.  Brian Thomsen was the editor of FR novels at the time that these were published, and I can only assume he acted as his own editor - I'm sure that no-one else would have allowed these vanity pieces to be published.

In conclusion...
There are many other FR novels that I haven't mentioned here, and that is no comment on their quality.  PaulKemp, I read the first Evris Cale novel, and he was the most interesting character I had seen introduced in the realms in a long time.  When I have finally depleted my backlog of novels I will probably pick up the next titles.

Duncan Haldane


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## Wereserpent (Nov 23, 2004)

I am currently reading the first book in the War of the Spider Queen series "Dissolution", so far it is alright.  I sort of dislike how the two main protagonists are just so damn perfect at everything they do, but I guess I will get used to it.  It is just that I have just recently read all of the core books for Dragonlance and the Raistlin chronicles, so going back to FR is a little weird.


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## PaulKemp (Nov 23, 2004)

Duncan Haldane said:
			
		

> PaulKemp, I read the first Evris Cale novel, and he was the most interesting character I had seen introduced in the realms in a long time.  When I have finally depleted my backlog of novels I will probably pick up the next titles.




Thanks, Duncan.  I hope you do pick them up at some point.  

Paul


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## Wolf72 (Nov 23, 2004)

Greenwood's books were okay, ... I didn't feel they were good, but for a DnD book I read them easily enough.


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## RenoOfTheTurks (Nov 25, 2004)

The good, IMO, include Cormyr, Elminster: The Making of a Mage, the first six Drizzt books, the Cleric Quintet, all of Elaine Cunningham's early work (haven't read the recent stuff), and Prince of Lies and The Crucible: Trial of Cyric the Mad.  Unlike some others I enjoyed the Avatar trilogy, mostly because Cyric was an unrepentant badass.  Red Magic and The Simbul's Gift are some other favorites.  I've heard The Glass Prison is great, but haven't read it.


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## BadMojo (Dec 3, 2004)

Duncan Haldane said:
			
		

> In conclusion...
> There are many other FR novels that I haven't mentioned here, and that is no comment on their quality.  PaulKemp, I read the first Evris Cale novel, and he was the most interesting character I had seen introduced in the realms in a long time.  When I have finally depleted my backlog of novels I will probably pick up the next titles.




Although I read quite a few FR books many years ago, I hadn't really read any recently.  Having read a few too many *REALLY* bad Realms novels scared me off for a while.

I'm just now getting my feet wet again, finding authors I really like writing in the FR setting.

I've enjoyed Elaine Cunningham's work, Elfshadow more than Elfsong, and I'll read more of her books.

I've just started Twilight Falling by Paul Kemp and absolutely love it.  I'm only about 100 pages in, and I've already put all of your other stuff on my Amazon wish list...anyone want to buy me anything? 

I've got a soft spot for R A Salvatore's early stuff, but maybe that's just nostalgia.  I'm going to get a new copy of Homeland and see how it holds up.  I tried to read the Demon Wars stuff he wrote, and found it absolutely awful.  I hope it's not indicative of his work on the later Realms books.


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## PaulKemp (Dec 3, 2004)

BadMojo said:
			
		

> Although I read quite a few FR books many years ago, I hadn't really read any recently.  Having read a few too many *REALLY* bad Realms novels scared me off for a while.
> 
> I'm just now getting my feet wet again, finding authors I really like writing in the FR setting.
> 
> ...




BadMojo,

I'm delighted by your post.  Not merely because you're enjoying the book, but because you were willing to give FR fiction another try after having been away for a while.  I wish more folks who turned away from it back in the day would consider giving it another try.  There is a lot of new blood in the line (and all the excellent authors of old remain), and the new books have a distinct voice.  Anyway, thanks.

Meanwhile, it sounds as if you started in on "Twilight Falling" before reading the Cale story in "Halls of Stormweather," and the Cale novel, "Shadow's Witness."  That's fine -- TF stands alone pretty well.   But if you enjoy the Cale trilogy, you may also enjoy going back to those earlier books (they are part of the Sembia series) and getting a feel for how Cale ended up where he did in TF.  

Paul


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## diaglo (Dec 3, 2004)

PaulKemp said:
			
		

> ...turned away from it back in the day would consider giving it another try.  There is a lot of new blood in the line (and all the excellent authors of old remain), and the new books have a distinct voice.




what if you own some of the older 2ed gaming material and really want to go back and tie-in Cale? what would you suggest?

i seem to recall reading about a certain thieves/assassins guild in other sources.


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## drascade (Dec 3, 2004)

IMO Dawn of Night is better than Twilight Falling.  The Scions of Arrabar trilogy by Thomas Reid has been pretty good too.  The Yellow Silk by Don Bassingthwaite.  It seems to me that most of the new books are more like a DnD session, almost as if you are reading a game log.  A guy I game with hadn't read any of the FR books and he asked which one he should start with so i gave him Twilight Falling


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## PaulKemp (Dec 3, 2004)

diaglo said:
			
		

> what if you own some of the older 2ed gaming material and really want to go back and tie-in Cale? what would you suggest?
> 
> i seem to recall reading about a certain thieves/assassins guild in other sources.




Diaglo,

Do you mean tie him in from the perpsective of a stat/class write-up?  Or tie him in from a history-continuity perspective?  The former would be mildly difficult, but doable for anyone versed in the 2E materials.  Since 2E did not contemplate anything other than a "dual classed" character, at least for humans, Cale would be a thief who later dual classed as a cleric.  He probably would also have an appropriate "kit" from the rogues handbook, though I couldn't say which one, as I haven't looked those books over in some time.    

From a continuity perspective, that would be easier, since I've worked to keep Cale's backstory consistent with what has gone before (even in the 2E supplements).  He was a member of the Night Masks during the reign of the "Faceless," later fled to Selgaunt, where he joined the Night Knives ("Night" sure appears a lot in FR thieves' guilds, no?).  He now is an independent and servant of Mask the Shadowlord, a bit of a pawn in the brewing divine war between Mask and Cyric.  You could fit Cale into the timeline anywhere along that "event continuum," depending on your interest.

I'm not sure I answered your question.  If not, clarify a bit for me and I'll have another go.


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## diaglo (Dec 3, 2004)

PaulKemp said:
			
		

> I'm not sure I answered your question.  If not, clarify a bit for me and I'll have another go.





you answered my question. it was in two parts. both the mechanics from a game/edition side and from the source material/ continuity of the stories in the FR.

edit: although i like to speculate and could have on the question myself. it makes it much easier to actual ask the author.


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## BadMojo (Dec 4, 2004)

PaulKemp said:
			
		

> Meanwhile, it sounds as if you started in on "Twilight Falling" before reading the Cale story in "Halls of Stormweather," and the Cale novel, "Shadow's Witness."  That's fine -- TF stands alone pretty well.   But if you enjoy the Cale trilogy, you may also enjoy going back to those earlier books (they are part of the Sembia series) and getting a feel for how Cale ended up where he did in TF.




Indeed, I did start with Twilight Falling but soon after I started reading it I put the first two Sembia books on my Amazon wish list.  

Good stuff!


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