# Armor max dex -> dex penalty



## Bladesinger_Boy (Feb 7, 2010)

I heard mention of this idea before somewhere, but I don't think the idea had been fully fleshed out.

What about, rather than having a maximum dexterity bonus for armor, armor instead applied an effective penalty to dex (for AC purposes only, not init or skills or other stuff).  As it currently it, a high-ex character is constantly min-maxing their highest allowable dex with the beefest armor possible and therefore needs to be constantly re-enchanting and trading up at higher level as they surpass their max dex limit.

Maybe something like this.  It's basically a -1 penalty per armor category.  This penalty cannot reduce your added dex bonus to AC penalty; it simply adds an effective dex bonus of +0.  This means that, if a character plans to be tanking out in heavy armor, they may not bother getting a decent dex stat and later buffing up their dex.  However, other characters may make that choice.
ARMOR CATEGORY____DEX (FOR AC) PENALTY
none..........................-0
light..........................-1
medium.....................-2
heavy........................-3

Effects like Mithril armor, the nimbleness enchantment, or class abilities like from the Pathfinder Fighter would still work by reducing the dex penalties you take.  So, Mithril Nimble breastplate would impose a -0 penalty to Dex AC (instead of the -2 normal Breastplate would impose).


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## ValhallaGH (Feb 8, 2010)

So, what you're suggesting is that, instead of having a Max Dex bonus, armor imposes a "penalty" to Dexterity _only for the purposes of computing AC_?

So, a Dex 19 Elf Fighter, with a suit of full plate, would have 10 + 8 (plate) + 3 (19-3=16 Dex) + Stuff = 21+ AC.  But, he'd still have a +4 to Initiative, +4 to Dex skills, and +4 to Ranged attacks.
Further, via the Mithril material, a fighter class feature, and the Nimble enhancement, he can reduce the Dex penalty to -0, leaving him with 10 + 8 (plate) + 4 (19 Dex) + Stuff = 22+ AC.
Did I get that correct?
And the 10 Dex Dwarf in a similar suit of plate would be on 10 + 8 (plate) - 2 (10-3=7 Dex) + Stuff = 16+ AC.  If he had the same enchantments, features, and materials, he'd be on 10 + 8 (plate) + 0 (10 Dex) + Stuff = 18+ AC.

...

Why?  That's a lot of conditional "ability damage" with the result of  making Dexterity a _more_ powerful ability score, making heavy armor _less_ attractive at all levels, and making Mithril and Nimble _more_ powerful and desirable.
More complicated and less balanced.  That's generally a bad sign when trying to rulesmith.


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## Bladesinger_Boy (Feb 8, 2010)

*Armor 1-9, Bracers either 1-3 or 1-4*

No, it wasn't about a penalty to one's dex score; it's a penalty to one's dex modifier to AC.  Actually, I could both AC and Reflex save but that's debatable.  So, 18 dex fighter wearing full plate would get +8 for the armor bonus and 4-3=1 for the dex bonus.  An 18 dex barbarian in breastplate would get +5 armor bonus and 4-2=2 for the dex bonus.  An 18 dex rogue in chain shirt would get +4 armor bonus and 4-1=3 for the dex bonus.

The idea was to make wearing heavier armors a flat bonus that does not make things impossible for dexy characters.  I don't the optimization, min-max of armor bonus to max dex.  If a character gains dex under this system, they still gain the +1 bonus wearing whatever armor they already have.  Under the old max dex system, gaining any bonus throws thigns up in the air and they either try to add further enchantment to their armor or sell-in and upgrade to something lighter.

More complex?  I consider min-maxing to constantly considering whats the best armor I can wear consider both my current dex and bonuses I may or may not get in the future complex.  A flat penalty seems simple to me.

Just to repeat, you can't ever get a dex penalty to AC because of armor; the least you can get is a +0 dex bonus to AC.  Unless you actually have a negative dex modifier.

I wouldn't have a problem removing mithril most likely, or nimbleness, or both.  Maybe just say the effects don't stack.  So, unless one source is removing 2 or 3 points, like maybe Champion of Corellon or the Pathfinder Fighter, then the most dex penalty you'll get is 1.

This is a another topic, but medium armors do need to suck less.  And chain shirt may be too powerful.  I wouldn't mind saying something like base armor bonuses range from 1 to 9 and each category grants 3 points.  Time for another table.  I put both max dex bonus and the dex penalty in there.  You can see the thematics of plate for heavy armors, mail for medium armors, and leather and other junk for light armors.  I wanted to make sure Hide armor was still a +3 bonus to Druid armor restrictions didn't get change things too much, though now it's light armor.
ARMOR BONUS___MAX DEX/ DEX PEN___ARMOR CHECK____ CATEGORY
+1 Padded..................+8 / -1..............-0.........................light
+2 Leather..................+7 / -1..............-1.........................light
+3 Hide......................+6 / -1..............-2.........................light
+4 Scalemail...............+5 / -2..............-2.........................medium
+5 Chainmail...............+4 / -2..............-3.........................medium
+6 Splintmail..............+3 / -2..............-4.........................medium
+7 Breast Plate...........+2 / -3..............-4.........................heavy
+8 Half Plate...............+1 / -3..............-5.........................heavy
+9 Full Plate...............+0 / -3..............-6.........................heavy

Bracers of armor have also always got under my skin.  I don't think they should be totally disallowed; but I wish they followed more set armor or shield rules and not there own thing.  Remember Dastana from the Arms & Equipment Guide?  Like that but not broken.

I think, while we should allow the no dex cap, maybe an armor check would help even things a bit.  What if, though bracers of armor would still not count as wearing armor so monk and wizards and whatever can still wear with no profs, there were a few different levels of bracers you can wear depending on the armor prof you have.  So, the wizard and monk can't wear as heavy bracers as the Duelist PrC or the Bladesingers.  Then, they get enchanted up with buying or crafting or the magic vestment spell like any other piece of armor.

  BRACER TABLE "A"
BRACER TYPE_____ARMOR BONUS___ARMOR CHECK___PROF REQUIRED
Basic Bracers.......+1.........................-1.......................none
Light Bracers........+2.........................-2.......................light
Medium Bracers....+3.........................-3.......................medium
Heavy Bracers......+4.........................-4.......................heavy

If Bracers going up to a base 4 armor bonus is too big and light bracers at +2 is too good compared to wearing normal armor with its dex penalty, maybe something like this.

  BRACER TABLE "B"
BRACER TYPE_____ARMOR BONUS___ARMOR CHECK___PROF REQUIRED
Light Bracers........+1.........................-1.......................none
Medium Bracers....+2.........................-2.......................medium
Heavy Bracers......+3.........................-3.......................heavy

This is probably better than 1 to 4.  I like table B more.


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## Kerrick (Feb 8, 2010)

It was my idea.


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## Aus_Snow (Feb 8, 2010)

FWIW, I prefer your rules, *Kerrick*.

Just one thing I noticed while there, however: Chainmail is better than the very poorly named (thanks, D&D) 'Breastplate' armour in three ways, *and* it costs less!

Not sure if there's context I'm not aware of (there are lots of rules there!) but I thought it was worth mentioning, just in case.


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## ValhallaGH (Feb 8, 2010)

Bladesinger_Boy said:


> No, it wasn't about a penalty to one's dex score; it's a penalty to one's dex modifier to AC.



Oh!
So, it just makes "good" dexterity scores (12 to 16) useless for AC.

Huh.  Yeah, that does reduce the need to consider your armor options.  Grab the heaviest armor you can wear and go from there.  You'll either never pump your Dex (16 or less) or pump it constantly (18+) to help your AC.  And all the min-maxing returns to being on the ability score side, regardless of armor choice.

That is a lot easier to adjudicate, remember, and play that what I read the first time.  It's also a power bump to the Monk, and to Mithril/Nimble light armor (not that the Mithril Shirt needed it), since it weakens everyone else.

How it's better than the existing system I don't see, but that's irrelevant.  You see a value there, so go nuts.


Making Medium Armor not suck:
Remove the speed reduction.  If a Fighter in scale moves at 30 feet, he'll be more reluctant to switch to plate, which pulls him down to 20 feet.  If he really needs the improved defenses, and doesn't need the mobility (expecting a fixed-position fight) then he'll use the plate; if he expects the increased mobility to save him more pain than the increased protection then he'll stick with the scale (lighter, less restrictive, cheaper to replace [ah, Rusty], and lets him move about faster to maximize survival).

Good luck.


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## Kerrick (Feb 9, 2010)

Aus_Snow said:


> FWIW, I prefer your rules, *Kerrick*.
> 
> Just one thing I noticed while there, however: Chainmail is better than the very poorly named (thanks, D&D) 'Breastplate' armour in three ways, *and* it costs less!
> 
> Not sure if there's context I'm not aware of (there are lots of rules there!) but I thought it was worth mentioning, just in case.



I think I did that because no one ever wears chainmail - they go straight from hide to breastplate. I can make chain comparable to breastplate - at 50 gp cheaper, players will probably still go for it over heavier armor.


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## ValhallaGH (Feb 9, 2010)

Kerrick said:


> I think I did that because no one ever wears chainmail - they go straight from hide to breastplate. I can make chain comparable to breastplate - at 50 gp cheaper, players will probably still go for it over heavier armor.



RAW Chainmail sucks.  By the time you can afford it, you can also afford the (simply better) breastplate.

Your breastplate is about as good as Padded armor.  The only people looking at it are proficient with heavy armor, have a Dex of 13 or less, and can't afford a _good_ heavy armor.

Gongratulations, you've made chainmail significantly better than the breastplate.


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## Hrothgar Rannúlfr (Feb 9, 2010)

ValhallaGH said:


> Bladesinger_Boy said:
> 
> 
> > No, it wasn't about a penalty to one's dex score; it's a penalty to one's dex modifier to AC.
> ...



That does simplify things quite a bit!


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## Bladesinger_Boy (Feb 11, 2010)

Thanks Hrothgar.  I mean, I'm still up in the air as to how I'll deal with armor, but this isn't that bad.  As I'd said above somewhere, I wanted some change because it's the "cap" part of max dex which makes leads to optimiation that cannot flex... so, if dex increases, in terms opportunity cost, you're actually penalized.  Maybe my proposed system is just front-loaded penalties rather than further along progression penalties.

Another topic is removing arcane spell failure.  Kerrick had some ideas about making armor check penalty effect more skills; specifically Concentration and Spellcraft.  This would hinder spellcasters and would, in addition to needing the armor profs to begin with, make a trade-off still exist between easily casting and tanking out in heavy armor.  I'd actually stiffen armor check as well so make it more meaningful.

Armor, especially Medium and Heavy armor, should be both more protective and have some slightly sharper drawbacks.  I'm thinking of lumping shield profs in with armor.  As somone else said, I'd remove the Cleric's hevay armor prof- so Fighter and Paladin are the only two basee 11 core classes with heavy armor prof.  I mean, a fighter type wearing fullplate should be more imposing as to just how damn armored he is

PROF______ACCESS
Light........... Light armors, Buckler, Light Shield
Medium....... Medium armors, Heavy Shield
Heavy......... Heavy armors, Tower Shield


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## ValhallaGH (Feb 12, 2010)

You always have the option of simply removing Maximum Dexterity from armors.  All armors would effectively have a Max Dex infinity.

Then characters are limited by proficiency, weight, cost, and availability.
Heck, then you could just redo armor as:
Light           +2 AC, -1 check, 15 lbs.
Medium      +5 AC, -3 check, 30 lbs.
Heavy         +8 AC, -5 check, 50 lbs.
For appearance, players can use whatever they want (or what the DM tells them) for the appearance of the armor.


Good luck.


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## Kerrick (Feb 12, 2010)

ValhallaGH said:


> RAW Chainmail sucks.  By the time you can afford it, you can also afford the (simply better) breastplate.
> 
> Your breastplate is about as good as Padded armor.  The only people looking at it are proficient with heavy armor, have a Dex of 13 or less, and can't afford a _good_ heavy armor.



With Dex penalty instead of max Dex, your Dex score doesn't really matter - if you're proficient with heavy armor and have a good Dex, that would still be a viable choice (moreso than the heavier armors, anyway). Granted, you'd need 19 Dex to take advantage of it, but it is there.  

That's the problem with the armor system, though - players will generally avoid the lightest armor in any given category if they can afford better, unless they have to wear it (druids and hide). There isn't much to be done about that, short of making all armors in a category the same, and I think we can agree that that's a really dumb idea.



> Gongratulations, you've made chainmail significantly better than the breastplate.



Is that sarcasm or an honest compliment? I'm thinking the former.


Getting back on topic...


Bladesinger_Boy said:


> Another topic is removing arcane spell failure.  Kerrick had some ideas about making armor check penalty effect more skills; specifically Concentration and Spellcraft.



Just Concentration.



> This would hinder spellcasters and would, in addition to needing the armor profs to begin with, make a trade-off still exist between easily casting and tanking out in heavy armor.  I'd actually stiffen armor check as well so make it more meaningful.



I dunno about that... have you ever seen someone in plate armor? I have - you can move around pretty well in it. Supposedly you could even swim in it, though I find that a little hard to believe.



> Armor, especially Medium and Heavy armor, should be both more protective and have some slightly sharper drawbacks.  I'm thinking of lumping shield profs in with armor.  As somone else said, I'd remove the Cleric's hevay armor prof- so Fighter and Paladin are the only two basee 11 core classes with heavy armor prof.  I mean, a fighter type wearing fullplate should be more imposing as to just how damn armored he is



Not a bad idea, on both counts - I limited clerics to Medium armor. One thing you could also consider is tweaking the shield AC bonuses like so:

Buckler: +1
Light shield: +2
Heavy shield +3
Tower shield: +5

This adds an actual tradeoff between all the shield types - right now, there isn't much of one for the first three, beyond the +1 AC bonus and +10% ASF a heavy shield gains.


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## ValhallaGH (Feb 12, 2010)

Kerrick said:


> With Dex penalty instead of max Dex, your Dex score doesn't really matter



Right.  Everyone uses one of four armors: Studded Leather, Chain Shirt, Chainmail, Plate.
To figure out which armors are the best, add the AC and Dex Penalty columns.  The result is the net AC increase for wearing that armor, assuming an infinitely high Dexterity.  Those four armors are +2, +2, +2, and +3, respectively.  In their categories, they are the best armors, period.  
For maximum AC, simply choose the one from the highest category you have access to.


> There isn't much to be done about that, short of making all armors in a category the same, and I think we can agree that that's a really dumb idea.



Sorry, you're wrong about that one.  I'm all for making all armor of a given category the same, and describing it appropriately.


			
				ValhallaGH said:
			
		

> Then characters are limited by proficiency, weight, cost, and availability.
> Heck, then you could just redo armor as:
> Light +2 AC, -1 check, 15 lbs.
> Medium +5 AC, -3 check, 30 lbs.
> Heavy +8 AC, -5 check, 50 lbs.



Medium Ironwood - a favorite of Druids.  
Heavy Scale - protective and stylish.


Kerrick said:


> Is that sarcasm or an honest compliment? I'm thinking the former.



Neither.  You've achieved one of your stated goals (congratulations).
I don't approve of the goal, but that's a matter of taste.


Kerrick said:


> Not a bad idea, on both counts - I limited clerics to Medium armor. One thing you could also consider is tweaking the shield AC bonuses like so:
> 
> Buckler: +1
> Light shield: +2
> ...




I've always preferred shields to use a table resembling this one.  It makes the light shield a meaningful choice, without making the heavy shield irrelevant.  And that bump to the tower shield almost makes it worth taking the -2 to attacks.


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## Sadrik (Feb 12, 2010)

To add to your armor table:

Light: +2, -0 check, 10 lbs
Medium: +4, -2 check, 20 lbs, speed 30 --> 25, speed 20 --> 20, speed 7/8?
Heavy: +6, -4 check, 40 lbs, speed 30 --> 20, speed 20 --> 15, speed 3/4?

Leather: +0, -1 check, +5 lbs
Mail: +1, -2 check, +10 lbs
Plate: +2, -3 check, +20 lbs

Basically pick how heavy and type and you get the armor.

Shields
Simple Weapon:
Buckler +1, -1 check, 3 lbs, Light weapon 1d3 damage
Martial Weapon:
Light +2, -2 check, 5 lbs, light weapon 1d3 damage
Heavy +3, -3 check, 10 lbs, -1 to hit, +1 Reflex saves, one handed weapon 1d4 damage
Exotic Weapon:
Tower +4, -4 check, 15 lbs, -2 to hit, +2 reflex saves, one handed weapon 1d4 damage (tower shield cannot be used to gain cover)

Remove shield proficiency and make it part of weapon proficiency.


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## Hrothgar Rannúlfr (Feb 13, 2010)

To use a Dex penalty instead of Max Dex, I think you'd need to bump the affected armors AC bonuses by the amount of the Dex Penalty.  

For example,
-- Leather would have an Armor Bonus of +4, but a Dex Penalty of -2.  The -2 applying to the bonus (if any) gained from the score, not the score, itself.
-- Studded Leather would have an Armor Bonus of +6, but a Dex Penalty of -3.
-- Chain Mail would have an Armor Bonus of +11, but a Dex Penalty of -6.
-- Breast Plate would have an Armor Bonus of +10, but a Dex Penalty of -5.
-- Full Plate would have an Armor Bonus of +15, but a Dex Penalty of -7.

Basically, subtract the listed Max Dex in the SRD from 8 and that is the Dex Penalty.  Add the same number to the Armor Bonus.

I believe that in order to use a Dex Penalty, the base value of the armor bonus has to be proportionately increased to maintain a sense of balance with the core system.


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## Hrothgar Rannúlfr (Feb 13, 2010)

ValhallaGH said:


> Sorry, you're wrong about that one.  I'm all for making all armor of a given category the same, and describing it appropriately.



Me, too.


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## Kerrick (Feb 14, 2010)

ValhallaGH said:


> Right.  Everyone uses one of four armors: Studded Leather, Chain Shirt, Chainmail, Plate.
> To figure out which armors are the best, add the AC and Dex Penalty columns.  The result is the net AC increase for wearing that armor, assuming an infinitely high Dexterity.  Those four armors are +2, +2, +2, and +3, respectively.  In their categories, they are the best armors, period.
> For maximum AC, simply choose the one from the highest category you have access to.



That's cool - I'd never heard that before. In my case, if we use Armor Bonus and Dex Penalty, I end up with padded/leather at +1, studded/chain shirt at +2; all medium armors except brigandine at +1 (I tweaked scale and chain); breastplate/banded at +1, half-plate +2, and full plate +3. Looks like I need to do a little more adjusting. 



> Sorry, you're wrong about that one.  I'm all for making all armor of a given category the same, and describing it appropriately.
> 
> Medium Ironwood - a favorite of Druids.
> Heavy Scale - protective and stylish.



Oh, you mean generic "Light armor" which the player can then describe in any manner he wishes. YMMV.



> Neither.  You've achieved one of your stated goals (congratulations).
> I don't approve of the goal, but that's a matter of taste.



Oh, well, thanks then. Chain isn't supposed to be "better" than breastplate, just "on a par with" it, more or less - I want the heaviest light and medium armors to be roughly equal to the lightest medium and heavy armors, respectively.



> I've always preferred shields to use a table resembling this one.  It makes the light shield a meaningful choice, without making the heavy shield irrelevant.  And that bump to the tower shield almost makes it worth taking the -2 to attacks.



Thanks. I can't claim credit for the AC idea, though - that was jsdivyer (I think that's spelled correctly).


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## Bladesinger_Boy (Feb 15, 2010)

So, I think Max Dex doesn't work.  Most here aren't keen on a Dex Penalty.  What about removing any dex cap altogether, only have one armor per category, and overall improving medium and heavy armors and shields.  Arcane spell failure is also removed in place of having Armor check now effect Concentration.  A push towards simplicity.  

When fighting defensively or using the full defense action, the base shield bonus to AC doubles. Base here just means the enhancement of an magic shield doesn't double, so a +2 Heavy shield goes from granting a +5 AC up to a +8 (not a +10). Anyway, here's the stuff I've been working on.

*Improved Shields*
 While Bucklers still grant the normal +1 Shield AC and Tower Shields grant the normal +4 Shield AC, Light Shields now grant a +2 AC bonus and Heavy Shields now grant a +3 AC bonus. Bucklers, however, will no longer grant the -1 penalty to hit for off-hand attacks. Tower Shields now have no max dexterity restriction. Using that shield-hand to perform an action or attacking with the shield still negates the shield bonus to AC for that round.
Improved Buckler Defence and Improved Shield Bash and other effects have been subsumed into the new feat: Improved Shield Use.

PROF______ACCESS
None.......... Basic armors, Basic bracers
Light........... Light armors, Buckler, Light Shield, Light bracers
Medium....... Medium armors, Heavy Shield, Medium bracers
Heavy......... Heavy armors, Tower Shield, Heavy bracers

I really like the idea that there is mechanically only light, heavy, etc armor and thematically it is considered Chain shirt, fullplate, whatever.  No max dex, no arcane spell failure, but stiffer armor check.  Buffing up medium and heavy armor means it should be rarer, so now only Fighters and Paladins get it automatically and Clerics only get medium armor prof.
ARMOR_________________________ARMOR CHECK___PROF
+1 Basic (ex: Clothing) ..........................-0.............none
+4 Light (ex: leather, chain shirt)..............-4.............light
+7 Medium (ex: breastplate, bandedmail)...-8...........medium
+10 Heavy (ex: fullplate, splintmail)..........-12...........heavy

  	SHIELD_______HAND USE_____    ATTACKING W/ SHIELD__    PENALTIES
  +1 Buckler .......any item, any wpn..cannot attack ............use > no +AC
  +2 Light Shield ..any item, no wpn...as per Light weapon ....use > no +AC
  +3 Heavy Shield .no item, no wpn ...as per One Hand wpn ..use > no +AC
  +4 Tower Shield .no item, no wpn ....cannot attack ...........-2 to atks

*New Feat: Improved Shield Use*
   Your have trained in using shield for offence and utility as well as defence.
  Benefit:
Performing an action with your shield arm or using your shield to attack with does not remove the granted shield bonus to AC as normal. Using a Tower Shield does not incur a -2 penalty to attack rolls.

BRACER TYPE_______ARMOR CHECK___PROF REQUIRED
+1 Basic Bracers...................-0...........none
+2 Light Bracers...................-2...........light
+3 Medium Bracers...............-4...........medium
+4 Heavy Bracers.................-6...........heavy

Though Bracers do grant an armor bonus, if enchanted they can gain further enhancement bonuses or can gain shield enchantments but NOT armor enchantments (ie: so they cannot get enchantments like any of the Fortification, but they could get Arrow Deflecting or Reflection).  Wearing Bracers does NOT count as wearing Light, Medium, or Heavy armor (just as it is currently).

I also included Defense bonuses (that do NOT stack with any armor bonuses) to my campaign.  Because I'm big into level tiers and 5 level increments (like 4E), I changed the defense bonuses and the way weapon & armor enhancement grow to reflect that.  Mechanically, you could just think of it as a free bonus regardless... great for when you have to take off your armor to sleep.  Thematically, it well demonstrates an urban and civilized area where not everyone has to be tanked out in chainmail or fullplate to survive and promote more choice for mages and low-armor types.

DEFENSE BONUSES
 CHAR LVL__NONE__LIGHT PROF___MEDIUM PROF___HEAVY PROF
1 ................+0.............	+1.............	+2.................	+3
6 ................+1.............	+2.............	+3.................	+4
11 ..............+2.............	+3.............	+4.................	+5
16 ..............+3.............	+4.............	+5.................	+6
21 ..............+4.............	+5.............	+6.................	+7
26 ..............+5.............	+6.............	+7.................	+8
31 ..............+6.............	+7.............	+8.................	+9
36 ..............+7.............	+8.............	+9................. +10


Clear as mud?


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## Bladesinger_Boy (Feb 15, 2010)

Okay, maybe 7 and 10 for medium and heavy armor are too much.  How about any of these?

TABLE A "3 per prof flat"
ARMOR_________________________ARMOR CHECK___PROF
+1 Basic (ex: Clothing) ..........................-0.............none
+3 Light (ex: leather, chain shirt)..............-4.............light
+6 Medium (ex: breastplate, bandedmail)...-8.............medium
+9 Heavy (ex: fullplate, splintmail)...........-12............heavy

TABLE B "+2 per prof"
ARMOR_________________________ARMOR CHECK___PROF
+1 Basic (ex: Clothing) ..........................-0.............none
+3 Light (ex: leather, chain shirt)..............-4.............light
+5 Medium (ex: breastplate, bandedmail)...-8.............medium
+7 Heavy (ex: fullplate, splintmail)..........-12.............heavy

TABLE C "first mixed"
ARMOR_________________________ARMOR CHECK___PROF
+1 Basic (ex: Clothing) ..........................-0.............none
+4 Light (ex: leather, chain shirt)..............-4.............light
+6 Medium (ex: breastplate, bandedmail)...-8.............medium
+8 Heavy (ex: fullplate, splintmail)..........-12.............heavy

TABLE D "second mixed"
ARMOR_________________________ARMOR CHECK___PROF
 +1 Basic (ex: Clothing) ..........................-0.............none
 +3 Light (ex: leather, chain shirt)..............-4.............light
 +6 Medium (ex: breastplate, bandedmail)...-8.............medium
 +8 Heavy (ex: fullplate, splintmail)..........-12.............heavy

I think I'd vote for "D".  "A" does seem more consistent and would promote heavy armor.  But "D" is a safer bet.  If I really thought removing max dex or dex penalty boosts armor too much and fear every walking about in heavy armor, maybe "B" is the right answer- but I think that penalizes non dex-based characters too much.

So, whether armor or shield or bracer, there is some base amount.  Then, which each prof, it goes up the same increment.  Shields and bracers progress at the same while armor progresses at twice this amount (1pt for shields and bracers, 2pts for armor).

PROF______ACCESS
None..........Basic armors, Basic bracers, Buckler
Light..........Light armors, Light bracers, Light Shield
Medium......Medium armors, Medium bracers, Heavy Shield
Heavy........Heavy armors, Heavy bracers, Tower Shield

TABLE E "2, +2 per prof"
 ARMOR_________________________ARMOR CHECK___PROF
  +2 Basic (ex: Clothing) ..........................-0.............none
  +4 Light (ex: leather, chain shirt)..............-4.............light
  +6 Medium (ex: breastplate, bandedmail)...-8.............medium
  +8 Heavy (ex: fullplate, splintmail)..........-12.............heavy

BRACER TYPE_______ARMOR CHECK___PROF
+1 Basic Bracers...................-0...........none
+2 Light Bracers...................-2...........light
+3 Medium Bracers...............-4...........medium
+4 Heavy Bracers.................-6...........heavy

SHIELD_______HAND USE________ARMOR CHECK___PROF
  +1 Buckler .......any item, any wpn.........-0..............none
  +2 Light Shield ..any item, no wpn..........-2..............light
  +3 Heavy Shield .no item, no wpn ..........-4..............medium
  +4 Tower Shield .no item, no wpn ..........-6..............heavy

So deliciously formulaic!


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## ValhallaGH (Feb 15, 2010)

I'd go with either Table A or Table D.  Probably Table D, since it makes Medium armors more viable (something I've always wished for; medium armors are cool, dang it).

Did you also drop the speed reductions when you removed Max Dex?


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## Bladesinger_Boy (Feb 16, 2010)

I had forgotten about that; thanks.

I like Kerrick's stance here.  First a reduced run multiplier, and then tack on the speed reduction.

TABLE A, "run & speed penalties"
ARMOR_________________ARMOR CHECK__PROF__MAX RUN__SPD REDUC
  Basic (ex: Clothing) ..........................-0.....none.......x5........full
  Light (ex: leather, chain shirt)..............-4.....light.......x5........full
  Medium (ex: breastplate, bandedmail)...-8.....medium..x4........full
  Heavy (ex: fullplate, splintmail)..........-12.....heavy.....x3........3/4


TABLE B, "only run penalties"
ARMOR_________________ARMOR CHECK__PROF__MAX RUN
   Basic (ex: Clothing) ..........................-0.....none.......x5
   Light (ex: leather, chain shirt)..............-4.....light.......x4
   Medium (ex: breastplate, bandedmail)...-8.....medium..x3
   Heavy (ex: fullplate, splintmail)..........-12.....heavy.....x2 (only double move)

To be honest, I never really liked the flavour of speed reductions.  I'd vote for table "B" here that only has run penalties.


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## ValhallaGH (Feb 17, 2010)

Table B makes the (already marginal) Run feat totally useless for everyone except Monk, Sorcerrer, and Wizard.  That bothers me a lot.


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## Kerrick (Feb 19, 2010)

Thanks for pointing that out - I'd totally missed it. I'll change it to read that it increases your max Run speed by 1 (max x5). Therefore, someone who's unencumbered or in Medium armor can run x5, and someone in heavy armor can run x4. This will keep the feat useful while still keeping the armor penalties.


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## Bladesinger_Boy (Feb 28, 2010)

So, how's this?

TABLE B2, "run multiplier penalties"
ARMOR___________________ARMOR CHECK__PROF__RUN
   +2 Basic (ex: Clothing) ...........................-0.....none.......normal
   +4 Light (ex: leather, chain shirt)..............-4.....light.......normal
   +6 Medium (ex: breastplate, bandedmail)...-8....medium..-1 run multiplier
   +8 Heavy (ex: fullplate, splintmail)...........-12....heavy.....-2 run multiplier

Add Concentration to the list of Armor Check Penalty skills (so, I guess all Str, Dex, and Con skills).

No speed penalties.  This version has no max dex (though they could be added if desired).  It allows characters to qualitatively describe however they want their armor to look, within reason.  I'm pleased.


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## Kerrick (Mar 1, 2010)

Looks good to me.


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## ValhallaGH (Mar 1, 2010)

That looks like it would work pretty well.

Good luck.


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## Hrothgar Rannúlfr (Mar 2, 2010)

I kinda like it, too.


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