# Stats for the Circle of Eight?



## STARP_Social_Officer (Mar 28, 2007)

Do stats for the Circle of Eight (of whom there are nine, including the Big M) exist anywhere that doesn't involve me forking out for a sourcebook? Their levels are recorded in the Living Greyhawk Gazeteer but that seems to be about it. Can someone point me in the right direction here? It's not that important, but the discussion about using Named NPCs prompted me to try and track these stats down, just in case the PCs actively come into conflict with the Eight, which is not out of the realm of possibility, or if the PCs' rival guild does (which is even more inside that same realm). Anybody know where I can find this? Anyone? Bueller?


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## Cthulhudrew (Mar 28, 2007)

I know that many of them are statted out in Vecna Lives! by Zeb Cook for 2E. Offhand, I believe it has: Rary, Tenser, Otto, Otiluke, Jallarzi, Drawmij, Bigby, Leomund, and Nystul. Nothing on Mordenkainen.

For 3E, there were some stats (not full, IIRC, just levels and possibly ability scores) for the Circle in a free handout that came with the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer (or somewhere- I honestly can't quite recall where I got it, though I'm sure a quick google would refresh my memory). It detailed the current 8 (Bigby, Jallarzi, Warnes, Theodain, Alhamazad, Otto, Nystul, and Drawmij.)

The Epic Level Handbook has stats for Mordenkainen.

Other than those, and the LGG that you mentioned, I don't know offhand of any other source.


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## MerricB (Mar 28, 2007)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> For 3E, there were some stats (not full, IIRC, just levels and possibly ability scores) for the Circle in a free handout that came with the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer (or somewhere- I honestly can't quite recall where I got it, though I'm sure a quick google would refresh my memory). It detailed the current 8 (Bigby, Jallarzi, Warnes, Theodain, Alhamazad, Otto, Nystul, and Drawmij.)




IIRC, Living Greyhawk Journal #0. Came with Dragon magazine.

2E City of Greyhawk boxed set has stats for a couple, IIRC. 
WG5 Mordenkainen's Fantastic Adventure has (faux)-1e Mordenkainen stats.

Cheers!


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## Echohawk (Mar 28, 2007)

Living Greyhawk Journal #0 has abbreviated stats and longer descriptions/background for "the Circle of Eight as of late Spring, Common Year 591":
Alhamazad the Wise
Bigby
Drawmij
Jallarzi Sallavarian
Mordenkainen
Nystul
Otto
Theodain Eriason
Warnes Starcoat


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## STARP_Social_Officer (Mar 28, 2007)

And where can I find this obscure document?


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## Echohawk (Mar 28, 2007)

There's one going for US$10 on ebay right now. But the stats in it are really minimal - just class level, alignment and ability scores. Unless you're a really stickler for using something official, you are probably better off updating the 2nd Edition stats from _Vecna Lives_ and/or _Return of the Eight_ (both available as PDFs), or just making them up as you need them.


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## xmanii (Mar 28, 2007)

Looking through my copy of Return of the Eight, and some are listed in there. It is 2E, copyright date is 1998.

Let me know if you need stats, and I'll see if I can't post it.


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## ColonelHardisson (Mar 28, 2007)

The Circle of Eight stats in LGJ 0 weren't full stats. As I recall, all that was given was class, level, ability scores, and a lot of background and history text.


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## BOZ (Mar 28, 2007)

i thought i had googled LGJ 0 before and found a PDF copy on the internet somewhere?  or maybe i was mistaken...


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## Cthulhudrew (Mar 28, 2007)

BOZ is right. Had to do a little bit of digging, but I found a link to it at WotC.


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## Alaric_Prympax (Mar 28, 2007)

Thanks, I needed that.   Or in another thread TINT.


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## Ripzerai (Mar 29, 2007)

Check out Duicarthan's Greyhawk NPC Archive. It's got all of them. Fan-interpreted, of course. Keep scrolling down...

Though personally, I think Bigby ought to be an Argent Savant.


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## Cthulhudrew (Mar 29, 2007)

He's got Valerius there, but no Grimslade, Saren, or even clutzy Indel.


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## Duicarthan (Mar 29, 2007)

*NPC Stats*

Actually most of those NPC's on that page are my conjectures as to where they could go, I started them before Complete Arcane even hit the shelves so theres a lot more that could be done now. 
However, my Encyclopedias have all the basics you'd need to see what level an NPC would be in the World of Greyhawk. 

Also I do wish, I could work on those more and do everyone, but hey theres only so much time in the day. However, if anyone wishes to flesh out an NPC from the World of Greyhawk, I am now the Editor-in-Chief of the Oerth Journal  and I am always accepting submissions on our Rogue's Gallery part of the e-zine. I can be contacted at oerthjournal (at) gmail (d0t) com. 

Cheerz,

Rick "Duicarthan" Miller


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## Cthulhudrew (Mar 29, 2007)

I was reading over that Circle of Eight handout yesterday (can't remember what I did with mine, but it's been ages since I've looked at it). I'm actually kind of surprised at some of the choices of classes for the characters (ie, no PrCs, etc.). In particular, it seems Theodain Eriason should have some levels of fighter, since his history explicitly states that he was a warrior before he studied magic. Alhamazad seems like he could be some kind of specialist, too.


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## Ripzerai (Mar 29, 2007)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> Alhamazad seems like he could be some kind of specialist, too.




In 2nd edition, Alhamazad was a sorcerer (the Al-Qadim character class that specialized in two elemental provinces). The  Wu Jen might be a good approximation.


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## Cthulhudrew (Mar 29, 2007)

Ripzerai said:
			
		

> In 2nd edition, Alhamazad was a sorcerer (the Al-Qadim character class that specialized in two elemental provinces). The  Wu Jen might be a good approximation.




That's not a bad idea- have to give it a different name. What elements did he specialize in, btw? I presume earth and fire, but maybe it's air instead (he does have a genie connection). Also, what product did he first appear in?

On another note, at least one of the NPCs in the LGJ #0 doesn't quite work as is. Otto, a 15th level wizard, only has a 17 Intelligence as written, which means not only can he not cast the 8th level spells he should be able to, but he can't even have penned his famous _Otto's Irresistible Dance_ spell.

In Vecna Lives! he's got a 7 Dex, 17 Int, and 16 Cha. The LGJ version has a 10 Dex and a 17 Cha- presumably he spent his bonus points, then, on raising Dex and Cha. I'd suggest lowering the Cha back down to 16 and raising his Int to 18. (Then again, I'd probably keep his Dex at 7 anyway- his physical description seems to lend itself well to a low Dex).


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## Ripzerai (Mar 29, 2007)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> Also, what product did he first appear in?




I think he only appeared, and was statted, in _Return of the Eight_.


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## dead (Mar 30, 2007)

Apparently the Circle of Eight from Gygax's home campaign varied to TSR's. I don't know if anyone has ever statted these up for 3E though . . .


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## grodog (Mar 31, 2007)

dead said:
			
		

> Apparently the Circle of Eight from Gygax's home campaign varied to TSR's. I don't know if anyone has ever statted these up for 3E though . . .




So far as I know, there hasn't been sufficient info released to stat up the original Citadel of Eight (EGG's personal PC precursors to the published Circle of Eight):


Mordenkainen - MU of level 20+ (stats from Rogues Gallery and WG5 were not the real stats for Mordy)
Bigby - Mordy's old apprentice, charmed in Castle El Raja Key, level 20+ (Mordy -2 or 3 or so?; ditto on RG/WG5 comment)
Yrag - human fighter (ditto on WG5 comment)
Riggby - human cleric (ditto on WG5 comment)
Felnorith - human fighter, generally mentioned as "Lord Felnorith" so he should be at least level 9+
Siggby - no info extant that I know of 
Diggby (a dwarf) - ditto
Vram and Vin - twin elven Fighter/MUs

Gygax's "Up on a Soapbox" in Dragon 318 (April 2004) provides the following notes about each:



			
				Gygax in Dragon 318 via grodog's site said:
			
		

> *  Gygax describes his various PCs, in order of creation:
> o Yrag, the fighter
> o Mordenkainen, the MU
> o Felnorith, the fighter sidekick to Yrag
> ...


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## ColonelHardisson (Mar 31, 2007)

grodog said:
			
		

> Gygax's "Up on a Soapbox" in Dragon 318 (April 2004) provides the following notes about each:




Can you provide a direct link? My internet-search-fu is weak; even after clicking on the links in your sig I'm not finding this.


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## AdmundfortGeographer (Mar 31, 2007)

The stats for the Circle in 591, as listed in LJ#0 are very sparse, but the backgrounds are detailed.

*Almahazad the Wise*, Wiz 19: hp 59, AL LN. Str 7, Dex 13, Con 10, Int 20, Wis 17, Cha 14

*Bigby*, Wiz 19: hp 89, AL N. Str 9, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 21, Wis 15, Cha 12

*Drawmij*, Wiz 18: hp 81, AL N. Str 7, Dex 16, Con 15, Int 22, Wis 17, Cha 9

*Jallarzi Sallavarian*, Wiz 15: hp 47, AL NG. Str 10, Dex 18, Con 10, Int 19, Wis 17, Cha 17

*Mordenkainen*, Wiz 20+: hp 106, AL N. Str 10, Dex 17, Con 17, Int 23, Wis 15, Cha 18

*Nystul*, Wiz 17: hp 76, AL N. Str 7, Dex 10, Con 15, Int 22, Wis 17, Cha 15

*Otto*, Clr 3(Boccob)/Wiz 15: hp 78, AL N. Str 16, Dex 10, Con 15, Int 17, Wis 15, Cha 17

*Theodain Eriason*, Wiz 17: hp 79, AL CN. Str 15, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 22, Wis 15, Cha 16

*Warnes Starcoat*, Wiz 20: hp 86, AL N. Str 14, Dex 18, Con 16, Int 24, Wis 17, Cha 17​


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## grodog (Mar 31, 2007)

ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> Can you provide a direct link? My internet-search-fu is weak; even after clicking on the links in your sig I'm not finding this.




My summary page for the Soapbox articles is at http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/gh_castle_sources_soapbox.html


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## Ripzerai (Mar 31, 2007)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> That's not a bad idea- have to give it a different name.




The 3e conversion of Al-Qadim calls the 2e sorcerer class the _saher_. I don't remember which provinces Almahazad specialized in.


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## dead (Apr 1, 2007)

grodog said:
			
		

> Mordenkainen - MU of level 20+ (stats from Rogues Gallery and WG5 were not the real stats for Mordy)
> Bigby - Mordy's old apprentice, charmed in Castle El Raja Key, level 20+ (Mordy -2 or 3 or so?; ditto on RG/WG5 comment)
> Yrag - human fighter (ditto on WG5 comment)
> Riggby - human cleric (ditto on WG5 comment)
> ...




Thanks grodog.

In fact, LJ#0 mentions the Citadel of Eight as a precurser to the Circle of Eight. So, at least canon GH hasn't dismissed them. It sounds like they were Mordy's adventuring companions/henchmen before he settled down to create the Circle of Eight.

Wow. All those "-iggby" names. They were surely nicknames granted by Mordy. It's not likely Mordy would cross paths with all those henchman with similar rhyming names by chance!


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## ColonelHardisson (Apr 1, 2007)

If I'm not mistaken, Warnes Starcoat is one of the pregen characters in Isle of the Ape, so his 1e stats appear there.


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## Glyfair (Apr 1, 2007)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> I'm actually kind of surprised at some of the choices of classes for the characters (ie, no PrCs, etc.).



One thing to remember is that it came out almost immediately after 3E was released.  Probably the only prestige classes at that time were the DMG ones.  Not many options.


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## AdmundfortGeographer (Apr 1, 2007)

Glyfair said:
			
		

> One thing to remember is that it came out almost immediately after 3E was released.  Probably the only prestige classes at that time were the DMG ones.  Not many options.



And as I recall, if the article was written during the authoring of the LGG, then the authors didn't even know there would be a thing like Prestige Classes in the 3.0 DMG.


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## Cthulhudrew (Apr 1, 2007)

Eric Anondson said:
			
		

> And as I recall, if the article was written during the authoring of the LGG, then the authors didn't even know there would be a thing like Prestige Classes in the 3.0 DMG.




That was evidently partially the case. Erik Mona (one of the writers of the LGJ #0 article) talked about that specific choice in a message I saw on the Wizards board while looking for more information about the Circle. 



			
				Erik Mona said:
			
		

> While what Rich says is true, we ultimately decided to keep the wizards generalists to honor their longstanding status as generalists, which has now endured three editions. That's also why we resisted the urge to make any of them sorcerers.
> 
> I strongly agree that Greyhawk needs more specialist wizards, but I don't think the Circle of Eight is the right place for them. Nor do I think it's a good place for fighters and thieves and things, even if that's how the Circle looked in Gary's original campaign. Since then, the Circle has become sort of the "definitive" organization of D&D wizards, so it'll remain that way as long as I have any say in the matter.


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## BOZ (Apr 2, 2007)

Ripzerai said:
			
		

> I think he only appeared, and was statted, in _Return of the Eight_.




this is what wikipedia has on him.  IIRC, he does get at least a paragraph in Player's Guide to Greyhawk.


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## DM-Rocco (Apr 2, 2007)

Eric Anondson said:
			
		

> The stats for the Circle in 591, as listed in LJ#0 are very sparse, but the backgrounds are detailed.
> 
> *Almahazad the Wise*, Wiz 19: hp 59, AL LN. Str 7, Dex 13, Con 10, Int 20, Wis 17, Cha 14
> 
> ...



Yeah, this is the kind of crap I spent $50 on ebay for issues 0-4.  I was looking for them a year or two ago so I could properly run the hand of vecna and vecna lives.  It really sucked in terms of actual usable material.  It does give detailed background info, if anyone wants to (hint hint) buy them from me.

In the end, I just spent three days making epic level wizards for the party to use and called it day.


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## grodog (Apr 3, 2007)

dead said:
			
		

> Thanks grodog.




De nada, dead.



			
				dead said:
			
		

> In fact, LJ#0 mentions the Citadel of Eight as a precurser to the Circle of Eight. So, at least canon GH hasn't dismissed them. It sounds like they were Mordy's adventuring companions/henchmen before he settled down to create the Circle of Eight.
> 
> Wow. All those "-iggby" names. They were surely nicknames granted by Mordy. It's not likely Mordy would cross paths with all those henchman with similar rhyming names by chance!




Actually, since Gary was playing most of his PCs in Rob Kuntz's Kalibruhn world, Rob was the one naming EGG's henchmen.  The Soapbox article I alluded to above is a fun read, if you track it down


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