# Wheel of Time?



## papastebu (Aug 31, 2007)

Has anyone seen or heard of the release date(s) for the final book(s) in this bloated trilogy? I have been re-reading practically everything in my library recently, and have just gotten to _The Shadow Rising_. Failing a release date, does anyone have any info, such as an official site, or maybe links to interviews with Jordan? I found one by accident one night, but it proved to be about two to three yeras old.


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## LightPhoenix (Aug 31, 2007)

The best I could find on a short search was early 2009 (Forbes, through Wikipedia), with the caveat that his illness may extend that.  Nothing on the major fansites or Usenet.


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## Ranger REG (Aug 31, 2007)

_Wheel of Time_ is a trilogy?


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## crazy_monkey1956 (Aug 31, 2007)

Dragonmount is a fan website, featuring a blog by the author.  Jordan has been dealing with a prolonged illness which has delayed his writing significantly.


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## papastebu (Aug 31, 2007)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> _Wheel of Time_ is a trilogy?



In much the same way that LotR is a trilogy, yes. Which is to say, not at all. More similar in that way, actually, to The Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy, which is to say, again, not at all. I was being facetious--pronounced; fas-seh-tee-us, for those not in the know--and, in my own defense--who would, otherwise?--I did say "bloated" to connotate "overlarge", or the like. 
Thanks for the link and the info, ya'll. If anyone wishes to use this thread to update information about the series or the author, or to satisfy someone else's curiosity, feel free.


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## kingpaul (Aug 31, 2007)

papastebu said:
			
		

> In much the same way that LotR is a trilogy, yes. Which is to say, not at all.



But Lord of the Rings is a trilogy: Fellowship of the Ring, The Two Towers and The Return of the King


			
				papastebu said:
			
		

> I was being facetious--pronounced; fas-seh-tee-us, for those not in the know



This has it fuh-see-shuhs


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## Alaric_Prympax (Aug 31, 2007)

IIRC _The Wheel of Time_ series was originally a 4 book deal, than it kept getting expanded.  I forgot were I got that information though.


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## Gentlegamer (Aug 31, 2007)

kingpaul said:
			
		

> But Lord of the Rings is a trilogy: Fellowship of the Ring, The Two Towers and The Return of the King



"The Lord of the Rings" is one book that was originally published in three parts.


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## Dioltach (Aug 31, 2007)

Alaric_Prympax said:
			
		

> IIRC _The Wheel of Time_ series was originally a 4 book deal, than it kept getting expanded.  I forgot were I got that information though.




I was once at an interview/book signing thing with Robert Jordan (around the time of Vol.9, I think), and he mentioned that when he was selling the idea to the publishers he said it wasn't going to be a trilogy (which at the time was the standard format for fantasy epics), but "four or five volumes". Ha!


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## jonathan swift (Aug 31, 2007)

Gentlegamer said:
			
		

> "The Lord of the Rings" is one book that was originally published in three parts.




Or six books published as three, either/or.


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## kingpaul (Aug 31, 2007)

Gentlegamer said:
			
		

> "The Lord of the Rings" is one book that was originally published in three parts.



I wasn't aware of that.


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## Ranger REG (Sep 1, 2007)

Alaric_Prympax said:
			
		

> IIRC _The Wheel of Time_ series was originally a 4 book deal, than it kept getting expanded.  I forgot were I got that information though.



So it was initially a quadrology. One more volume than a trilogy.


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## Alaric_Prympax (Sep 1, 2007)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> So it was initially a quadrology. One more volume than a trilogy.




Well... ah... yes if you want to use the correct terminology.


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## stonegod (Sep 1, 2007)

Could be worse. Could be the Xanth "trilogy" (almost up to 27 books---a trilogy of trilogy trilogies )


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## Ranger REG (Sep 1, 2007)

stonegod said:
			
		

> Could be worse. Could be the Xanth "trilogy" (almost up to 27 books---a trilogy of trilogy trilogies )



Piers Anthony writes too much.


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## Mark Hope (Sep 1, 2007)

Alaric_Prympax said:
			
		

> Well... ah... yes if you want to use the correct terminology.



The correct terminology would be _tetralogy_, actually...    



I'll get my coat...


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## Plane Sailing (Sep 2, 2007)

I thought that WoT read as though it was a single book which was very successful and as a result got expanded into 2-3-4-5+ additional books.

The first book seemed to work fine as a standalone novel in many ways.


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## Alaric_Prympax (Sep 2, 2007)

Mark Hope said:
			
		

> The correct terminology would be _tetralogy_, actually...
> 
> 
> 
> I'll get my coat...





Whatever.    

To quote Captain Kirk form _ST:IV - "One little mistake..."_.


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## papastebu (Sep 4, 2007)

kingpaul said:
			
		

> But Lord of the Rings is a trilogy: Fellowship of the Ring, The Two Towers and The Return of the King
> 
> This has it fuh-see-shuhs




Regardless of how you slice the Lord of the Rings, it really can't be considered a trilogy unless you are just determined to do so, in which case, it's perfectly alright to call it that. As to the proper pronunciation of the word facetious, I am well aware of it, and was only responding to Ranger REG's ribbing with a little tongue-in-cheekery of my own. I actually got the other pronunciation years ago from my youngest sister, who, having never heard the word, but being both prodigious and voracious in her reading, attempted to say it anyway in my hearing. Me being older than her by seven years and some change, I immediately started giving her a ration of s   t about it, and the situation made it stick in my mind.

More on topic, this is my third re-reading of WoT, as it stands, with the exception of the last three books. Do any of you think that Jordan carried Nynaeve's limitation with the One Power through too many of the books? I could have done without that. I kept saying, "All right, get over it, already, so Rand can cleanse _saidin_." I love the thoroughness of the world the man created, but I feel like certain things like Nynaeve's situation could have been pared down a bit. There's a point when plot-driving tension becomes irritated waiting, to me, and I was wondering if Jordan had crossed that line with anyone else.
Incidentally, was it Lan who actually threw her into the drink? I was never clear on that. It may be revealed when I read that part again, but I missed it the first time round, so...


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## Thornir Alekeg (Sep 4, 2007)

papastebu said:
			
		

> Do any of you think that Jordan carried Nynaeve's limitation with the One Power through too many of the books? I could have done without that. I kept saying, "All right, get over it, already, so Rand can cleanse _saidin_." I love the thoroughness of the world the man created, but I feel like certain things like Nynaeve's situation could have been pared down a bit. There's a point when plot-driving tension becomes irritated waiting, to me, and I was wondering if Jordan had crossed that line with anyone else.



  I was enthralled with WoT through the first few books.  I gave up after book 7 because I felt like things had ground to a near standstill and was tired of the way certain plot points seemed ripe for closure, but didn't actually close.


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## cignus_pfaccari (Sep 4, 2007)

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> I was enthralled with WoT through the first few books.  I gave up after book 7 because I felt like things had ground to a near standstill and was tired of the way certain plot points seemed ripe for closure, but didn't actually close.




In that case, check out the last book.  It's vastly more fun than anything since Book 6.  Rand cuts loose with his warmagery, and Mat is again the Best General EVAR, among other things.

You can probably skip anything else that you haven't read.  The prior book had three things happen that I recall, out of about 800 pages.

Brad


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## papastebu (Sep 5, 2007)

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> I was enthralled with WoT through the first few books.  I gave up after book 7 because I felt like things had ground to a near standstill and was tired of the way certain plot points seemed ripe for closure, but didn't actually close.



I agree with this to an extent, due to my natural impatience, but I stuck it out because I like the characters so much. Honestly, though, the situation with Nynaeve, and the one with Rand not getting to the cleansing--I think one book earlier might have done it--was brought back to my mind by this last Harry Potter book, when they were falling over themselves in the woods.
I'm always disappointed when the author of a truly fine story like this can't seem to shave off the dry bits without cutting out major expository parts. Even covering interesting fluff, like the history of the Aiel, could have been done a bit more succinctly. All in all, if the series was shorter by a book or two, due to editing out all of the repeats, absolutely unnecessary characters and their characterizations, and cutting the drawn-out waiting for something that you want to--and know is going to--happen, it would probably be better for it. Maybe Jordan was just trying to make sure he filled in all the loose ends. Maybe he was pandering to too much of his fans' commentary, and trying to please ALL the people.
I don't mean to villify him, because I think that reading these people's lives has I think, given me a lot of insight and enrichment.
EDITBayle Domon)END EDIT. Domon Bayle is a floating plot device.
How relevant ARE the Black Ajah? They got the three strongest women channelers in 1000 years out of the Tower, but are they just somebody for the girls to fight? I think I would have been more satisfied with this storyline if it had been resolved, at least mostly, and had been what led up to the division of the White Tower, instead of the three Accepted leaving beforehand. Lots more thoughts and questions, but I do go on. My apologies.


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## death tribble (Sep 5, 2007)

Well I have read the books to date and like them. I did not see Nynaeve and Rand cleansing the Male side of the source coming but when it happened I thought Yes ! Something legendary.
I like Nynaeve. And I like the Aiel. The next book is going to be the final book according to all the sources I have seen.


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## kingpaul (Sep 5, 2007)

papastebu said:
			
		

> Regardless of how you slice the Lord of the Rings, it really can't be considered a trilogy unless you are just determined to do so, in which case, it's perfectly alright to call it that.



It isn't a trilogy, but it is a trilogy?  


			
				papastebu said:
			
		

> but I feel like certain things like Nynaeve's situation could have been pared down a bit. There's a point when plot-driving tension becomes irritated waiting, to me, and I was wondering if Jordan had crossed that line with anyone else.



It irritated me a bit as well. I've read all the books through determination. The last one really surprised me, which I'm glad for. The several before that were just, IMO, dragging on and on...and on and on.


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## papastebu (Sep 6, 2007)

kingpaul said:
			
		

> It isn't a trilogy, but it is a trilogy?



Finally, somebody understands.  



			
				kingpaul said:
			
		

> It irritated me a bit as well. I've read all the books through determination. The last one really surprised me, which I'm glad for. The several before that were just, IMO, dragging on and on...and on and on.



"This is the song that never ends..."
I have been alternately disgusted and pleased with the length of the series. More to read, or pointless reading? I would like to have an abridged version, where I get to pick what goes in and gets left out.
I do love how he has reinvented interesting things from myth, such as the _golam_, and how he used the dynamic of man versus woman, and the different combinations of cultures. I've always thought that the Seanchan were an amalgam of Irish and Chinese cultures, with China being predominant. Also, the Tairens resemble Spain, and the Aiel are like Bedouins descended from Irish Tinkers or something. Brilliant!


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## papastebu (Sep 6, 2007)

death tribble said:
			
		

> Well I have read the books to date and like them. I did not see Nynaeve and Rand cleansing the Male side of the source coming but when it happened I thought Yes ! Something legendary.
> I like Nynaeve. And I like the Aiel. The next book is going to be the final book according to all the sources I have seen.



This was something that I saw coming when I realized that A) of the new-age channelers, Rand and Nynaeve were the strongest, B) there were two massive crystal spheres which seemed to be the tops of a statue of a man and one of a woman, and C) there were two smaller statues that were not only _ter'angreal_, but it seemed like their special purpose was to link their weilders to the giant statues. Add the amount of _saidin_ that could be channeled through _Callandor_, and the fact that Nynaeve's a natural Healer...
I was desperate for it to happen, anyway, because going mad and dying of evil-induced rot has never been a part of my adolescent power-fantasies.


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## Ranger REG (Sep 6, 2007)

papastebu said:
			
		

> Regardless of how you slice the Lord of the Rings, it really can't be considered a trilogy unless you are just determined to do so, in which case, it's perfectly alright to call it that.



Yeah, the trilogy is the publisher's decision not the author's. They didn't want to scare readers by offering one big honkin' book.

Only _The Holy Bible_ or the California Telephone Directory are easily acceptable by [casual] readers.


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## shilsen (Sep 6, 2007)

I really liked the first book and went through the next 4-5 before I finally quit. One of the reasons that I haven't seen mentioned on this thread which has often come up in discussions of Jordan's writing with people of varied tastes is his absolutely inability, IMNSHO, to write realistic women. I think John Norman (of Gor infamy) is the only fantasy author I can think of whose writing makes me go, "Damn, you really don't understand women, do you?" more than Jordan. Coincidentally (or maybe not), the Gor series is another where the first novel was quite interesting and enjoyable, but which very swiftly went donwhill.


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## Darth Shoju (Sep 7, 2007)

shilsen said:
			
		

> I really liked the first book and went through the next 4-5 before I finally quit. One of the reasons that I haven't seen mentioned on this thread which has often come up in discussions of Jordan's writing with people of varied tastes is his absolutely inability, IMNSHO, to write realistic women. I think John Norman (of Gor infamy) is the only fantasy author I can think of whose writing makes me go, "Damn, you really don't understand women, do you?" more than Jordan. Coincidentally (or maybe not), the Gor series is another where the first novel was quite interesting and enjoyable, but which very swiftly went donwhill.




I just finished book six and I've come to the conclusion that he isn't bad at writing one *type* of female character, but he seems to be unable to conceive of one that isn't a short-sighted bully. That and the "everybody loves Rand" bit is tiresome. 

As far as the series originally being four books, I'd say it really shows: the storyline changed quite radically after book four, where he started taking on the Forsaken and it was revealed that he wasn't really confronting the Dark One in the previous four books (or at least that is what I took from it -- I'm listening to it on audiobook so I may have missed something). 

The length of the series does seem to be rather bloated, although I was warned about this before stating it (I wasn't planning on reading it until I found the audio version so I could listen to it while commuting to work -- time I wasn't really using anyway). Book six had some interesting bits (and a cool ending) but really could have been much shorter; I also understand the worst is yet to come in this regard. My question is whether that is to be blamed on Jordan, his editor or the publisher (trying to wring more revenue out of their cash cow?). Has anyone heard anything on the reason for the length of the series? I hear that Jordan actually issued an appology for book eight.


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## Lazybones (Sep 7, 2007)

I think once the WoT is completed, someone (maybe even here) will publish a list of chapters from all 12 books that can be read to get the maximum experience from the series. Maybe with terse summaries of the  chapters to be skipped. My memory from my last reading of books 7-10 is that there's only a few hundred pages of essential content in those four titles, and there are some sections in the earlier books that can likewise be skimmed over. 

Certainly (IMO) the whole Perrin-chasing-Faile/Shaido sequence can go (or most of it, anyway), and big swaths of the Egwene-as-Amyrlin Seat, and Elayne-in-Caemlyn.  

You're probably right about his female characters, but I don't understand women either, so I guess I don't notice it as much.   

All Jordan needed was an editor who wasn't afraid to stand up to him when he started tending toward the bloat. WoT is still far better than Goodkind's Sword of Truth, in my opinion, and I only hope that GRR Martin's latest half-book isn't an indicator that he's falling into the same trap as Jordan did.


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## papastebu (Sep 7, 2007)

stonegod said:
			
		

> Could be worse. Could be the Xanth "trilogy" (almost up to 27 books---a trilogy of trilogy trilogies )



trilogy cubed?


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## papastebu (Sep 7, 2007)

Lazybones said:
			
		

> I think once the WoT is completed, someone (maybe even here) will publish a list of chapters from all 12 books that can be read to get the maximum experience from the series. Maybe with terse summaries of the  chapters to be skipped. My memory from my last reading of books 7-10 is that there's only a few hundred pages of essential content in those four titles, and there are some sections in the earlier books that can likewise be skimmed over.



This would be helpful, but who's going to do it, and what if somebody who's never read the series would have like the parts they cut?



			
				Lazybones said:
			
		

> Certainly (IMO) the whole Perrin-chasing-Faile/Shaido sequence can go (or most of it, anyway), and big swaths of the Egwene-as-Amyrlin Seat, and Elayne-in-Caemlyn.



I agree with this. Most of these parts never seemed to actually push the story forward, to me. Seemed like they are just there to give some big characters something to do. In the volume that I am about to finish, you at least have the push -and-pull of Faile and Perrin aiding the Two Rivers as a way of pushing certain groups into position as key parts of the Last Battle. As far as Egwene becoming Amyrlin, I can see the necessity of her or one of the other three powerful channelers doing it, but why have the reincarnated Forsaken getting to her "in the perfect disguise"? It seemed to go nowhere. There were certain aspects of her ascension that made sense for the same reason as the Faile and Perrin in Emond's Field storyline. We all know why Mat is an awesome general, now, but why have him marry the Seanchan heir apparent? Just because that country's armies will do whatever she says, and by extension, follow him? More soldiers for the Last Battle.


			
				Lazybones said:
			
		

> You're probably right about his female characters, but I don't understand women either, so I guess I don't notice it as much.



I was gonna say that, except that I think he does an OK job with writing women, mostly. I've always felt that women generally write better for male characters than men write for women, but I think maybe Jordan approaches the whole think in these novels from a "battle of the sexes" standpoint. My dad is fond of saying that you can never win an argument with a woman, because women are always right, even when men are never wrong.  



			
				Lazybones said:
			
		

> All Jordan needed was an editor who wasn't afraid to stand up to him when he started tending toward the bloat. WoT is still far better than Goodkind's Sword of Truth, in my opinion, and I only hope that GRR Martin's latest half-book isn't an indicator that he's falling into the same trap as Jordan did.



Even with the extra verbiage, WoT is exempliary, in my opinion. That don't mean I don't have a few d'ruthers.


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## papastebu (Sep 7, 2007)

Darth Shoju said:
			
		

> I just finished book six and I've come to the conclusion that he isn't bad at writing one *type* of female character, but he seems to be unable to conceive of one that isn't a short-sighted bully. That and the "everybody loves Rand" bit is tiresome.
> 
> As far as the series originally being four books, I'd say it really shows: the storyline changed quite radically after book four, where he started taking on the Forsaken and it was revealed that he wasn't really confronting the Dark One in the previous four books (or at least that is what I took from it -- I'm listening to it on audiobook so I may have missed something).
> 
> The length of the series does seem to be rather bloated, although I was warned about this before stating it (I wasn't planning on reading it until I found the audio version so I could listen to it while commuting to work -- time I wasn't really using anyway). Book six had some interesting bits (and a cool ending) but really could have been much shorter; I also understand the worst is yet to come in this regard. My question is whether that is to be blamed on Jordan, his editor or the publisher (trying to wring more revenue out of their cash cow?). Has anyone heard anything on the reason for the length of the series? I hear that Jordan actually issued an appology for book eight.



I'd not heard about that apology until now, but anything's possible. As to unnecessary length, I would guess that Jordan had a lot to say, regardless, and when writers get that famous, they tend not to be investigated as thoroughly. It wouldn't surprise me that the editor(s) figured he knew what to cut out by the 5th book or so, and the publisher didn't mind due to sales. Quality can suffer that way. I don't think it has suffered a lot, though.


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## drothgery (Sep 7, 2007)

Darth Shoju said:
			
		

> My question is whether that is to be blamed on Jordan, his editor or the publisher (trying to wring more revenue out of their cash cow?).




Several of the books were pushed rather quickly from manuscript to publication, with a much shorter editting cycle than is normal, because Tor makes a ton of money off of WoT, and so wants to get them out as soon as possible (at least, historically; given Jordan's health problems, they'll just be happy if he finishes book 12 at all).


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## DethStryke (Sep 17, 2007)

Robert Jordan passed away today. That does not bode well for ever having a true ending to his Series. 

Rest In Peace, good sir.

http://www.dragonmount.com/RobertJordan/?p=90


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## Aaron L (Sep 20, 2007)

I always loved the WoT, and loved how long it was.  Like a comic book, it would keep coming out and continuing the story of Rand and Mat and Perrin.  

I've never understood people's dislike of the length of the series.  Would these people like to see X-Men or Spider-Man "wrap up the story" and end?  I know I sure as hell wouldn't.

RJ will be missed.


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## Glyfair (Sep 20, 2007)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> _Wheel of Time_ is a trilogy?




Piers Anthony used to have a note in his mini-biography that his failure in math manifests itself in his tendency to put more than 3 books in a trilogy.


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## Darth Shoju (Sep 20, 2007)

Aaron L said:
			
		

> I've never understood people's dislike of the length of the series.  Would these people like to see X-Men or Spider-Man "wrap up the story" and end?  I know I sure as hell wouldn't.
> 
> RJ will be missed.




Not to speak ill of the dead (I'll always respect the man at the least), but it isn't the same to me. The length of WoT would encompass years worth of comic book story lines. With WoT it is basically one finite story stretched out past plausibility; in the comics world, you'd get a lot more stuff happening in that many pages (different story arcs, etc). 

In short, if RJ had managed to make a series this long where interesting things were actually happening it would be a different matter, but I found book six (which isn't even the worst offender by all accounts) to be very redundant in places and quite slowly paced in the middle. That may suit some tastes, but personally if I wasn't listening to it in my car in my down time I probably wouldn't have the patience for it. Comics are another story (and the ones that aren't I don't read).


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## shilsen (Sep 20, 2007)

Aaron L said:
			
		

> I've never understood people's dislike of the length of the series.  Would these people like to see X-Men or Spider-Man "wrap up the story" and end?  I know I sure as hell wouldn't.




It's not simply about the length for many critics of the series, such as me. I love epic stories, whether actually mythological ones (Mahabharata, Ramayana, Iliad, Aeneid, etc.) or fantasy (Tolkien, as the obvious one), and the size of a text is rarely an issue. But the length has to actually include things which are interesting and/or relevant. I really liked the first book of the WoT and quite enjoyed the next few. But Jordan soon lapsed into incredibly unnecessary verbosity and had reams of text which did absolutely nothing to either move the story along or give you a flavor of the world he wrote in. The fact that he quickly climbed very high on my list of people who can't write women at all (wouldn't be a problem if he hadn't also had so many female characters) didn't help matters at all. So eventually I quit reading him. Length had very little to do with it. Quality was the prime factor.


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## papastebu (Sep 20, 2007)

shilsen said:
			
		

> It's not simply about the length for many critics of the series, such as me. I love epic stories, whether actually mythological ones (Mahabharata, Ramayana, Iliad, Aeneid, etc.) or fantasy (Tolkien, as the obvious one), and the size of a text is rarely an issue. But the length has to actually include things which are interesting and/or relevant. I really liked the first book of the WoT and quite enjoyed the next few. But Jordan soon lapsed into incredibly unnecessary verbosity and had reams of text which did absolutely nothing to either move the story along or give you a flavor of the world he wrote in. The fact that he quickly climbed very high on my list of people who can't write women at all (wouldn't be a problem if he hadn't also had so many female characters) didn't help matters at all. So eventually I quit reading him. Length had very little to do with it. Quality was the prime factor.



While I think you are absolutely correct about many parts of the novels not actually pushing the story forward, I think that the motion suffered *because* of his illustration of the world he obviously worked so hard on EDIT: more than the irrelevent plotlines or interminable, yet necessary ones END EDIT. From my reading, it seems like you can hardly turn around in these books without bumping into some background. While this helps with getting your head into the world, it does tend to run into the "rosy fingers of dawn" sort of problem. The difference in these works is that Jordan's own descriptions take the place of the quoted cliche.
As to Jordan's handling of women, I think that you could do an analysis of each of the prominent female characters and come up with a lot of commonalities.
BUT, two of them come from the Two Rivers, where the only things more stubborn than the men are the women. Add to that the fact that Nynaeve has been used to having to shout a little louder to prove herself in that environment, and you get somebody that is assertive to a fault, with next to no patience for anyone, much less those she finds foolish. On top of that, the woman can't channel without a mad-on, and she is learning to love doing this thing she's afraid of, so she keeps herself pissed-off about 85-90% of the time. Aside from all that, she's just a b    h.  

Egwene learned from Nynaeve, to start, and then went to the Tower, where obfuscators abound, and then went to the Wise Ones of the Aiel! These women are the most stubborn and intractible lot of a people to whom Two Rivers stubbornness is not even a patch.

Elayne Trakand is not a bully; she's *royalty*. She seems very kind-hearted, otherwise.
Min is somewhat of a tomboy, and is tough because of the world she grew up in, with brothers, and all. She doesn't strike me as a bully, either.

Moiraine has been an Aes Sedai for more than twenty years, aside to being very dedicated to what she has taken on as her duty. Her leading everyone around by the nose, as it were, is a function of her rather large experience versus the extreme inexperience of all of the others.

Siaun Sanche was the head of the Aes Sedai. If you don't need to be strong and unyielding to do that, I don't know when you would have to be.

Faile Bashere is the daughter of one of the greatest generals in the known world, and their women sometimes take over from their husbands who die in battle, where the women regularly accompany them.

Aviendha is, more or less, an Aiel Wise One, and was a Maiden of the Spear, before that.
All of these examples are just my observations. I can, occasionally, see the argument of "this just might be a man in a dress", but I think that Jordan has written a lot of strong women into these stories, and what you are seeing as bullying is that strength becoming visible.

One thing that I think he did overwrite, aside from the descriptions, is the miscommunication between men and women *all the time*. I find myself, over and over, thinking, "If you'd just tell him/her what was on your damn mind..."

Sorry for going on so long, but I wanted to say something about this when I read your first post, and I've thought about it a bit since.


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## Darth Shoju (Sep 20, 2007)

papastebu said:
			
		

> As to Jordan's handling of women, I think that you could do an analysis of each of the prominent female characters and come up with a lot of commonalities.
> BUT, two of them come from the Two Rivers, where the only things more stubborn than the men are the women. Add to that the fact that Nynaeve has been used to having to shout a little louder to prove herself in that environment, and you get somebody that is assertive to a fault, with next to no patience for anyone, much less those she finds foolish. On top of that, the woman can't channel without a mad-on, and she is learning to love doing this thing she's afraid of, so she keeps herself pissed-off about 85-90% of the time. Aside from all that, she's just a b    h.
> 
> Egwene learned from Nynaeve, to start, and then went to the Tower, where obfuscators abound, and then went to the Wise Ones of the Aiel! These women are the most stubborn and intractible lot of a people to whom Two Rivers stubbornness is not even a patch.
> ...




I think I was the one that used the term "bully", and I mostly get that from book six where Egwene, Nynaeve, and Elayne all think about forcing Matt to do what they want through their magic (and I don't think that is the first time in the series either, though not always directed at Matt); further, a common mentality amongst the Aes Sedai is that everyone should show them the respect due them (for being Aes Sedai) or be forced to show that respect. I can understand why many Aes Sedai would think that way, but it would have been refreshing to see at least one of them doubt themselves now and then.

I'd agree that the female characters all have their differences in personality and motivations, but the majority of them end up behaving in very similar ways. It's fine to have a few stubborn female characters, but they *all* seem to be stubborn to a fault. In my experience, women certainly don't all come across that way, and it would have been nice if RJ had come up with some female characters that behaved in a noticeably different manner. It was his world after all, and he didn't *have* to set all the women up as stubborn and pretentious.  

I did like Min and Faile though. Moiraine was cool too.


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## Taelorn76 (Sep 20, 2007)

papastebu said:
			
		

> One thing that I think he did overwrite, aside from the descriptions, is the miscommunication between men and women *all the time*. I find myself, over and over, thinking, "If you'd just tell him/her what was on your damn mind..."




That was also a big factor for me not enjoying the books as much, and sometimes even getting frustrated. But  it went then just the miscommunication between men and women. There was a boat of miscommunication between the men as well. Rand and Matt not telling each other things is one that comes to mind.


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## papastebu (Sep 21, 2007)

Darth Shoju said:
			
		

> I think I was the one that used the term "bully", and I mostly get that from book six where Egwene, Nynaeve, and Elayne all think about forcing Matt to do what they want through their magic (and I don't think that is the first time in the series either, though not always directed at Matt); further, a common mentality amongst the Aes Sedai is that everyone should show them the respect due them (for being Aes Sedai) or be forced to show that respect. I can understand why many Aes Sedai would think that way, but it would have been refreshing to see at least one of them doubt themselves now and then.
> 
> I'd agree that the female characters all have their differences in personality and motivations, but the majority of them end up behaving in very similar ways. It's fine to have a few stubborn female characters, but they *all* seem to be stubborn to a fault. In my experience, women certainly don't all come across that way, and it would have been nice if RJ had come up with some female characters that behaved in a noticeably different manner. It was his world after all, and he didn't *have* to set all the women up as stubborn and pretentious.
> 
> I did like Min and Faile though. Moiraine was cool too.



Maybe it's just a commentary on my life and the choices I've made, but about 70-80% of the women I've known, if they thought they were being balked in any way, would have their backs as high as a cat's in a room full of dogs. Not even Mom and my three sisters escape this observation, but maybe THAT particular bit is not unusual. Think about it, you never know what they're thinking, but they expect you to KNOW. I've had more arguments, with no point that I could see, with women than I have with men. Maybe Mr. Rigny didn't have a whole lot of women that he knew well enough to make characters from.
Anyway, sorry for lumping your and shilsen's comments together, but the similar views kind of did that before I started, and I am afraid I neglected to check back.
I did make the "man in a dress" comment, but I still liked the characters, even the women. Even with people pointing these rather accurate--in the broad sense, no pun intended, at least--assessments, the series is generally great. I think  that overall, the guy kept it together over about 10 or 11 thousand pages. If I could actually finish ONE book, not to mention getting it published, I think that I might just soil myself.
Thanks for getting back to me. BTW, this is my first two-page thread, even if I do have about 25% of the post-count in it.


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## Darth Shoju (Sep 21, 2007)

papastebu said:
			
		

> Maybe it's just a commentary on my life and the choices I've made, but about 70-80% of the women I've known, if they thought they were being balked in any way, would have their backs as high as a cat's in a room full of dogs. Not even Mom and my three sisters escape this observation, but maybe THAT particular bit is not unusual. Think about it, you never know what they're thinking, but they expect you to KNOW. I've had more arguments, with no point that I could see, with women than I have with men. Maybe Mr. Rigny didn't have a whole lot of women that he knew well enough to make characters from.
> Anyway, sorry for lumping your and shilsen's comments together, but the similar views kind of did that before I started, and I am afraid I neglected to check back.
> I did make the "man in a dress" comment, but I still liked the characters, even the women. Even with people pointing these rather accurate--in the broad sense, no pun intended, at least--assessments, the series is generally great. I think  that overall, the guy kept it together over about 10 or 11 thousand pages. If I could actually finish ONE book, not to mention getting it published, I think that I might just soil myself.





Hey I really enjoyed the first four books of the series. It drew me in right away and I got into the characters to point I actually cared about them (as much as one can for fictional characters in a book--still, more than I can say for most books). I guess that is why from book 6 on I found it so frustrating: I remembered how good it had been and I wanted these characters and plots I was enjoying to move along. 



			
				papastebu said:
			
		

> Thanks for getting back to me. BTW, this is my first two-page thread, even if I do have about 25% of the post-count in it.




No prob; it was my pleasure.


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## shilsen (Sep 21, 2007)

papastebu said:
			
		

> All of these examples are just my observations.




Sure. And they're interesting to read, since I'm always curious to see how other readers see the same subject.



> I can, occasionally, see the argument of "this just might be a man in a dress", but I think that Jordan has written a lot of strong women into these stories, and what you are seeing as bullying is that strength becoming visible.




You know, the one thing I'd never accuse Jordan of is doing the "man in a dress" syndrome, which afflicts too many male writers (and not just in fantasy). I usually find his women very distinct from his men. And he does write a lot of strong women, but unfortunately, for me that's mainly because he has a similar template for them. They're all shrews 



> One thing that I think he did overwrite, aside from the descriptions, is the miscommunication between men and women *all the time*. I find myself, over and over, thinking, "If you'd just tell him/her what was on your damn mind..."




Agreed. I think that's one of the big factors in his women seeming two-dimensional and a little too similar across the board to me. I think he actually does a better job writing female characters when they're not interacting with men, since he's more likely to treat them in a rounded fashion then and not have them descend into just filling one side in the battle of the sexes.



> Sorry for going on so long, but I wanted to say something about this when I read your first post, and I've thought about it a bit since.




Like I said, it was interesting to see your perspective.



> Maybe it's just a commentary on my life and the choices I've made, but about 70-80% of the women I've known, if they thought they were being balked in any way, would have their backs as high as a cat's in a room full of dogs. Not even Mom and my three sisters escape this observation, but maybe THAT particular bit is not unusual. Think about it, you never know what they're thinking, but they expect you to KNOW. I've had more arguments, with no point that I could see, with women than I have with men. Maybe Mr. Rigny didn't have a whole lot of women that he knew well enough to make characters from.




That's quite possibly the case. Personally, that's not true of the women I know and have known. Also I've always found it just as easy to understand and communicate with women as men (ironically, a big reason being that I essentially ignore gender when dealing with people, just as I ignore race, age, etc.), so for me his manner of writing them seems even weaker than it might for some others.



> BTW, this is my first two-page thread, even if I do have about 25% of the post-count in it.




Well, you want a job done right...


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## iwatt (Sep 21, 2007)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> That was also a big factor for me not enjoying the books as much, and sometimes even getting frustrated. But  it went then just the miscommunication between men and women. There was a boat of miscommunication between the men as well. Rand and Matt not telling each other things is one that comes to mind.




I must say that I understand how the miscommunication issues could get on people's nerves, but maybe growing up watching Latin American Telenovelas has added to my tolerance  That is such a standard trope, that you almost start enjoying the misunderstanding's after a while. "If only he would say...:"    Maybe it's a cultural thing though.

In Jordan's defense, mistrust is a big part of his world. With an active force for evil able to infiltrate anywere, trust is very lacking. Rand, Mat and Perrin know that just about anybody can be a Darkfriend. Now, certainly they should probably trust each other more, but a) I think Rand's paranoia is definitely part of his madness; He trusts Min totally though, since she is 100% loyal to him. In his eyes everybody else has an agenda b) Matt is very leery of all power weilders, and really stopped trusting Rand in book 2, c) Perrin has made it clear that his only true loyalty is to his wife. And those are the two guys Rand "knows" he can trust. Besides, he was schooled by Moraine, who I think could be a poster child for information control  based on "Need to know".

But there is another point worth talking about. Female arrogance is a one of the central themes  in the book (is that the right literary term BTW? My literary discussion classes are 15 years behind me and in another language). These women live 5-8 times longer than anybody else, have supernatural power that makes them demigods, and haven't had any serious competition in the last 3,000 years. If that doesn't breed arrogance, I'm not sure what will. IMO, these women should have been even more aloof and arrogant than even he portrays them, but then it would be impossible to empathize with them in any way.

BTW, not everyone is a shrew, though I agree a majority of them are. Elayne started pretty relaxed in book 1, but a little white tower goes a long way apparently.    My favorite Aes Sedai after Moraine is Verin, who definitely isn't a shrew, IMO. Moraine isn't a shrew either, though she is the most manipulative woman ever born apparently


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## jonathan swift (Sep 21, 2007)

Maybe it's just me, but I've seen enough relational problems and falling outs caused by lack of communication that what shocks me in fiction is when people are completely open all the time.


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## phoenixgod2000 (Sep 22, 2007)

iwatt said:
			
		

> But there is another point worth talking about. Female arrogance is a one of the central themes  in the book (is that the right literary term BTW? My literary discussion classes are 15 years behind me and in another language). These women live 5-8 times longer than anybody else, have supernatural power that makes them demigods, and haven't had any serious competition in the last 3,000 years. If that doesn't breed arrogance, I'm not sure what will. IMO, these women should have been even more aloof and arrogant than even he portrays them, but then it would be impossible to empathize with them in any way.
> 
> BTW, not everyone is a shrew, though I agree a majority of them are. Elayne started pretty relaxed in book 1, but a little white tower goes a long way apparently.    My favorite Aes Sedai after Moraine is Verin, who definitely isn't a shrew, IMO. Moraine isn't a shrew either, though she is the most manipulative woman ever born apparently




I agree with you about one of the themes being feminine arrogance. It began with The female Aes Sedi staying sane while the men went mad, but I think over the years it bled over into the nonchanneling members of both genders with men being seen as less trustworty than women because the male channelers all went mad.

A lot of female 'heroes' have had some truly ugly moments in the story towards men.  Nyneave (sp) being probably the worst (why does Lan like her again?), but Elyane defintely being up there-especially towards mat in Crown of Swords when all the guy was trying to do was keep her alive.  And I frankly just don't understand perrin and his wife.  She needs to be offed and soon.  Least likeable character in the entire series IMO.

It does, however, have to be said, that the coolest chick in the story is Brigitte the archer. That girl is awesome and isn't afraid to tell her bonded off when she needs it.  One of my favorite character scenes in the later series was when Brigitte forces Elayane to apologize to
Mat for treating him like (bleep) after he rescued her from several forsaken.

I am truly going to miss Robert Jordan and his world


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## Gentlegamer (Sep 22, 2007)

I want to someone to write a fan fiction where Kitiara (from Dragonlance) beats the crap out of Nynaeve and tells her to quit her bitchin'.


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## iwatt (Sep 23, 2007)

phoenixgod2000 said:
			
		

> It does, however, have to be said, that the coolest chick in the story is Brigitte the archer.




You are correct sir! I'd forgotten Birgitte.




			
				phoenixgod2000 said:
			
		

> I am truly going to miss Robert Jordan and his world




My thoughts exactly. The good times he's provided for me more than make up for how slow things became in books 7-10.


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## papastebu (Sep 25, 2007)

shilsen said:
			
		

> Sure. And they're interesting to read, since I'm always curious to see how other readers see the same subject.



This is gratifying. Thanks. My primary reason for posting on any forum is an attempt to connect with like-minded people on subjects that matter to me.




> You know, the one thing I'd never accuse Jordan of is doing the "man in a dress" syndrome, which afflicts too many male writers (and not just in fantasy). I usually find his women very distinct from his men. And he does write a lot of strong women, but unfortunately, for me that's mainly because he has a similar template for them. They're all shrews



Rethinking the statement, the aggressiveness was what I was pointing to, but I think the only one who was a "shrew" was Nynaeve. Even she has her femininity, though, so I may have been trowel-handed on that opinion. I like the character, except when she's at her nastiest. Then I wish Birgitte would hand her her @$$ as a hat.




> Agreed. I think that's one of the big factors in his women seeming two-dimensional and a little too similar across the board to me. I think he actually does a better job writing female characters when they're not interacting with men, since he's more likely to treat them in a rounded fashion then and not have them descend into just filling one side in the battle of the sexes.



 Yeop. This is evident in a lot of Nynaeve's interactions with Thom and Jiulin, that I've observed, and I'm sure that it's true elsewhere, as well. The poor woman seems to think that it's her against the world.






> That's quite possibly the case. Personally, that's not true of the women I know and have known. Also I've always found it just as easy to understand and communicate with women as men (ironically, a big reason being that I essentially ignore gender when dealing with people, just as I ignore race, age, etc.), so for me his manner of writing them seems even weaker than it might for some others.



You are a fortunate man. Ignoring race, age, and the like goes as far as respect does with me, though. If I am getting it, I am giving it, generally based on the individual, but sometimes based on a person's age or gender, given that there is a large gap in either direction for the former, and the other is a woman or girl, for the latter. There is a way to be respectful of those more experienced and still let them know you're angry. The same can be said of respect toward women. Race as a criteria for anger or specific respect does not exist for me, however, and so I default to age and gender to know how to act.




> Well, you want a job done right...



I've always been a "do it yourself-er".


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## papastebu (Sep 25, 2007)

iwatt said:
			
		

> I must say that I understand how the miscommunication issues could get on people's nerves, but maybe growing up watching Latin American Telenovelas has added to my tolerance  That is such a standard trope, that you almost start enjoying the misunderstanding's after a while. "If only he would say...:"    Maybe it's a cultural thing though.



Having never seen one, I would not know, but the insight is interesting.


> In Jordan's defense, mistrust is a big part of his world. With an active force for evil able to infiltrate anywere, trust is very lacking. Rand, Mat and Perrin know that just about anybody can be a Darkfriend. Now, certainly they should probably trust each other more, but a) I think Rand's paranoia is definitely part of his madness; He trusts Min totally though, since she is 100% loyal to him. In his eyes everybody else has an agenda b) Matt is very leery of all power weilders, and really stopped trusting Rand in book 2, c) Perrin has made it clear that his only true loyalty is to his wife. And those are the two guys Rand "knows" he can trust. Besides, he was schooled by Moraine, who I think could be a poster child for information control  based on "Need to know".



It's very strange, but I had not once looked at it from this angle. The Dark One is much more visibly active than the Creator in the series, and, honestly, past a certain point, I don't see how Rand is trusting of anyone at all. I have often thought that Rand's madness simply took a less volatile form, yet had been there all along.



> But there is another point worth talking about. Female arrogance is a one of the central themes  in the book (is that the right literary term BTW? My literary discussion classes are 15 years behind me and in another language). These women live 5-8 times longer than anybody else, have supernatural power that makes them demigods, and haven't had any serious competition in the last 3,000 years. If that doesn't breed arrogance, I'm not sure what will. IMO, these women should have been even more aloof and arrogant than even he portrays them, but then it would be impossible to empathize with them in any way.



Again, I didn't look that deeply. Personal motivations and reasons, sure, but not anything like that. Bravo!


> BTW, not everyone is a shrew, though I agree a majority of them are. Elayne started pretty relaxed in book 1, but a little white tower goes a long way apparently.    My favorite Aes Sedai after Moraine is Verin, who definitely isn't a shrew, IMO. Moraine isn't a shrew either, though she is the most manipulative woman ever born apparently



 Cairhienen Aes Sedai?


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## reanjr (Sep 25, 2007)

kingpaul said:
			
		

> I wasn't aware of that.




It was too long to economically be released as one book.  From what I recall, book binding or paper or something was expensive at the time.


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## GSHamster (Sep 25, 2007)

Aaron L said:
			
		

> I always loved the WoT, and loved how long it was.  Like a comic book, it would keep coming out and continuing the story of Rand and Mat and Perrin.
> 
> I've never understood people's dislike of the length of the series.  Would these people like to see X-Men or Spider-Man "wrap up the story" and end?  I know I sure as hell wouldn't.
> 
> RJ will be missed.




Endings are important.  Things need to end, before you can really judge them. Endings provide closure and completeness.  They give meaning to what has gone before. Think of all the movies with great endings, or those with absolutely horrid endings.

_Lord of the Rings_ is a very different book because of its ending. What happens on Mount Doom is pivotal to the story, and makes the rest of book better. What would _Casablanca_ be without its ending?  A Shakespearean play without the final act?

Imo, this is a weakness of most comic books.  The best comic books are those which end, which tell a complete story.  _Watchmen_ and _Sandman_, for example.

The problem with Robert Jordan was that he could not end things.  Even plotlines within the series that should have ended (Faile/Perrin) kept on going.

And I'm saying that as someone who liked the series, who thought the idea of a hero who didn't moan about his fate, but went out and prepared for the final battle by conquering the known world was an amazing breath of fresh air.


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## iwatt (Sep 25, 2007)

papastebu said:
			
		

> Again, I didn't look that deeply. Personal motivations and reasons, sure, but not anything like that. Bravo!




Heh, thanx. It's something I thought of on a previous discussion over the mention of the increased reference to Aes Sedai homosexuality* in the latter books: what is the real effect of actually been an incontrovertibly superior but small minority. What would actually happen would probably be so politically incorrect that no publisher would dare print it though    IMO, the Children of the Light are only a pale image of the equivalent organization that would develop in our world in those circumstances. And the Aes Sedai would be even more supercilious and arrogant.


* The way I see it, it's similar to the Spartan men. I'm no scholar, but I understand that homosexuality was prevalent in Sparta.


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## qstor (Oct 3, 2007)

I liked the first three books a lot. After having read on the boards here about frustration of people reading the series, I got bogged down. I just got book six. Hopefully I can finish the rest of the series.

God rest RJ.

Mike


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