# I think my dentist is ripping me off.



## wingsandsword (Jun 21, 2019)

I think my dentist is ripping me off.

Let me give some explanation.

I went roughly 20 years with almost no dental care.  An incompetent small-town dentist back in Stanford that did a filling on me without proper anesthetic left me deeply dreading dentists.  I couldn't afford a dentist most of my adult life and didn't have dental insurance.  When I was in the Army, all they cared about was getting my wisdom teeth out, cleanings or maintenance was something they didn't really provide nor care about.

In November 2016, I finally go to a dentist.  The dentist office is fancy and elaborate and expensive-looking, more like a hotel lobby than a medical office.  They tell me I need a deep cleaning, a rather invasive cleaning that takes a couple of sessions back-to-back.  Since I hadn't been to the dentist since the Clinton Administration, that seemed plausible.

After that, they want me to come back in 3 months for a follow-up.  I do that.  Then another 3 months, and so on.  

Insurance only pays for 2 cleanings a year, so the last 2 of these annual quarterly cleanings were out-of-pocket to me.  Also, at every quarterly visit for the next two years they tell me I'm doing great, no signs of dental problems, everything looks good.

Well, I start to get suspicious about why I'm having to come in quarterly and pay out-of-pocket every 3 months for a checkup when everything seems fine every time, when every 6 months is the norm and what my insurance pays for.

I finally asked my dentist office about it.  What changed things was that I got new dental insurance this year, and suddenly I'm not getting ANY of my visits covered fully, that my first visit of the year (which was previously free) was now $80.

They said that because I'd had a deep cleaning, I didn't qualify for normal dental cleanings anymore, that I was now on "periodontal maintenance", which is why I had to come in every 3 months.  It didn't matter that the cleaning was almost 3 years ago, that I'd be coming in every 3 months from now on for the rest of my life, and they would all be billed as "periodontal maintenance" (which is more expensive than a normal cleaning), and even tried to say I was outright ineligible for normal cleanings from now on and that if they tried to submit a claim for a routine cleaning that the insurance company would reject it because I've previously had that deep cleaning.

My new insurance doesn't fully cover ANY "periodontal maintenance" visits, although it does cover normal cleanings.  So, they want me to come in 4 times a year, for 2 visits I'll be paying about $80 for out-of-pocket and 2 visits I'll be paying about $160 out of pocket for.

So, because I had a specific cleaning procedure almost 3 years ago, they're saying that for the rest of my life I'll have to come in once every 3 months, instead of 6 months for the rest of my life, and it always must be billed as a more expensive office visit and cleaning and can't be one of the two-a-year cleanings automatically covered by my dental insurance?

Yeah.  I'm thinking I'm getting ripped off, but does anyone who knows more about dentistry and dental insurance have any more insight on this?


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## Morrus (Jun 21, 2019)

IANAD, but periodontal maintenance probably means you have gum disease, which can be halted/held at bay by ongoing maintenance but the damage can't be reversed. Those 20 years without visiting a dentist is probably when that set in.


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## Janx (Jun 21, 2019)

Find a new dentist or tell them no, you're only coming in for what your insurance pays for,  


When I changed companies, the new company didn't have dental insurance, so I paid cash to my dentist of nearly 20 years.

The next year we got insurance but my dentist wasn't in network.  We went to these "other guys" and they did such a hard job on my gums (and my wifes because we both went in at the same time) and then said we'd need to come back in 3 months.


I never went back to that place and I returned to paying cash to my old dentist for the rest of that year.  I paid less than what I'd been charged out of pocket to the "other guys" on that one bullcrap cleaning.

Don't take bullcrap unless you're throwing it at the jerk who gave it to you.


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## wingsandsword (Jun 21, 2019)

Morrus said:


> IANAD, but periodontal maintenance probably means you have gum disease, which can be halted/held at bay by ongoing maintenance but the damage can't be reversed. Those 20 years without visiting a dentist is probably when that set in.




Except every appointment after the first they say I'm fine, have no problems, have no issues ect.

I've not heard one bad word about the shape of my teeth or gums since that first appointment.  The first couple of appointments they said they were monitoring the status of things since I'd not been to a dentist in so long, but things were looking very good.

Hence the extreme skepticism at this idea that I have to come in 4 times a year, for life, for extra expensive cleanings that my insurance won't pay.  They aren't even telling me I'm in bad dental health, just that since I had this procedure done once, this is the way it has to be now.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2019)

Once you ave gum disease, you are at a high risk of it returning.  Gum disease is linked to heart attack and such.

Insurance companies only want to  pay two cleanings a year (or one cleaning every six months, which works out to be the same but you can't schedule the second too close or they deny it).  Dentists want to permanently move you to every three months because of chance of recurrence.

IANAD, I can't give you any dental advice.  I can say that dentists will go for minimizing risk, and insurance agencies will go for minimizing payout, and those don't always line up with each other, or with your personal needs and how risk adverse you are.

In other words, what you are saying does not sound like a particular dentist trying to scam you, but a common practice.  But yes, it's a common practice which does favor them with being able to bill more.


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## Eltab (Jun 22, 2019)

Your dentist is not trying to rip you off, he is trying to create a new regular paying patient.
Talk to a couple of dentists about whatever shape your mouth is in - they cannot conspire against you if you do not mention that you are talking to others, but they will all diagnose whatever problems you have.

I have family that works in health insurance.  Your story is familiar, based on the financial incentives to the dentist, and not automatically a sign of evil intent.  (But no less annoying to experience, no doubt.)


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## Zardnaar (Jun 22, 2019)

I go about once a year. They send me it's time for blah blah blah every so often. Compromise and go twice a year. Over here the excess to claim is more than generic dental work. Anything expensive there is a dental school here I haven't had to resort to.


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## cbwjm (Jun 22, 2019)

After 20 years I finally went to a dentist, thought I had some tooth decay (2 holes in the same place on opposite teeth), turns out I've just slowly ground down those two teeth. Had them fixed up and also had an amalgam filling replaced, fairly expensive but not too bad, won't be back to see them til next year.


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## Imaculata (Jun 22, 2019)

People get an anesthetic for a simple filling? Now that's a rip off.


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## Morrus (Jun 22, 2019)

wingsandsword said:


> Hence the extreme skepticism at this idea that I have to come in 4 times a year, for life, for extra expensive cleanings that my insurance won't pay. They aren't even telling me I'm in bad dental health, just that since I had this procedure done once, this is the way it has to be now.




Sounds to me like your insurance is the problem, not the dentist.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Jun 22, 2019)

I've had this problem. Sometimes it seems like a dentist's "thing".

I see a dentist every year and get cleanings once to twice per year. Moved to a new place, and the dentist told me I needed periodontal treatment.  When through all the pain of getting that approved, treated, etc, and put on the every-three-month schedule. OK, fine -- though there was a % out of pocket, plus the dentist's office would push some "extra" treatment (basically a point injection/spray) that my insurance would not cover, every time I came in.

Relocated, new dentist -- no mention of need for periodontal treatment, just regular treatment.

Relocated again, back to the prior location and back to the prior dentist. They jumped right back on the "periodontal plus extras" treatment schedule. So I fired them (it did not help that they screwed up my billing, too). Found a new local dentist, started from scratch -- they basically told me that I had a couple of spots to watch, but did not go into the deep cleaning routine.

So it really feels like a racket with that one dentist.


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## Zardnaar (Jun 22, 2019)

Imaculata said:


> People get a anesthetic for a simple filling? Now that's a rip off.




I've stopped using it. Prefer the brief pain over fuzzy headed for a bit. Injured myself a few years back and now normal levels of pain don't hurt as much.


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## wingsandsword (Jun 22, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> I've stopped using it. Prefer the brief pain over fuzzy headed for a bit. Injured myself a few years back and now normal levels of pain don't hurt as much.




You get fillings done without novocaine or anything similar?  Just letting the dentist drill into a tooth without any numbing agent whatsoever?

That's a little higher on the Fort Save DC than I'd like like to repeat.  I had a dentist do that to me once as a teenager, that was enough for a lifetime.


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## wingsandsword (Jun 22, 2019)

Olgar Shiverstone said:


> I've had this problem. Sometimes it seems like a dentist's "thing".
> 
> I see a dentist every year and get cleanings once to twice per year. Moved to a new place, and the dentist told me I needed periodontal treatment.  When through all the pain of getting that approved, treated, etc, and put on the every-three-month schedule. OK, fine -- though there was a % out of pocket, plus the dentist's office would push some "extra" treatment (basically a point injection/spray) that my insurance would not cover, every time I came in.
> 
> ...




Yeah, that's basically my suspicion on this, that it's something that this dentist is doing to maximize his take, to engage in bill padding.

I'm planning on seeing a second dentist, getting a second opinion.  If a second dentist says I don't need this 4x a year schedule with bigger, more expensive appointments, I'll trust the second opinion on that.

The fact that every visit after the first one has involved the dentist saying there are no problems, no issues, everything's looking good ect. . .makes me very suspicious about this.


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## Morrus (Jun 22, 2019)

wingsandsword said:


> You get fillings done without novocaine or anything similar?  Just letting the dentist drill into a tooth without any numbing agent whatsoever?
> 
> That's a little higher on the Fort Save DC than I'd like like to repeat.  I had a dentist do that to me once as a teenager, that was enough for a lifetime.




Zardnaar watched Marathon Man’s torture scene and thought “I can do that!”

In other news, I have never heard of a dentist who would do a filling without a local anaesthetic.


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## wingsandsword (Jun 22, 2019)

Morrus said:


> Sounds to me like your insurance is the problem, not the dentist.




Remember that healthcare, including dentistry, in the US is almost entirely profit driven.

If a dentist can find a way to justify extra visits, at a more expensive billing code, they may very well use them.

Rather than 2 visits a year at ~$70 each, billing for 4 visits a year at ~$180 each and telling the patient it's medically necessary (as long as they can find some plausible way to justify that to the insurance company, even if it's not strictly needed) is something many dentists would do here.  That way the dentist would be making about 5 times more off me a year than they would with normal, standard 2x/year cleanings that wouldn't cost me anything out-of-pocket from my insurance.

That's from his end, that's making $140 off me a year vs. making $720 off me a year.  

From my end with my current insurance (which costs me about $80/month for dental insurance, which is completely separate from health insurance), it would be ~$0 out-of-pocket each year (for 2x/year regular cleanings), to paying ~$520 out-of-pocket a year (for the 4x/year "periodontal maintenance" visits he wants).

That's my suspicion.  

(I know you live in the UK, I figured this might give some perspective on how it financially works here that is probably different than how it works there).


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## wingsandsword (Jun 22, 2019)

Morrus said:


> Zardnaar watched Marathon Man’s torture scene and thought “I can do that!”
> 
> In other news, I have never heard of a dentist who would do a filling without a local anaesthetic.




The problem was that the doctor did it wrong.

He _missed _with the needle of Novocaine.  Numbed part of my face and jaw, but that tooth still had sensation.

He ignored me when I tried to tell him I could feel everything and it *HURT*.  He said I was faking it and being dramatic, and when I tried to resist, he had his hygienist physically hold me down while he drilled one of my molars and filled it.

He thought because my tongue was numb and I was talking funny from the novocaine having numbed part of my face, that the tooth had to be numb too and I was lying about feeling it all as he drilled in.

That was a quarter century ago.  Still remember it vividly.  It's why, aside from mandatory dental checkups in the Army (where they said they saw no issue requiring treatment, my last one being about a year before I went to this dentist who was making such a hubbub about me needing all this treatment) and having my wisdom teeth cut out in the Army (because they're fanatical about that) I didn't see a dentist for around 20 years.


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## Morrus (Jun 22, 2019)

wingsandsword said:


> (I know you live in the UK, I figured this might give some perspective on how it financially works here that is probably different than how it works there).




Dentists aren’t usually on the NHS, and we rarely have dental insurance. My dentist is  private and I pay for everything. $80 sounds quite reasonable.


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## Morrus (Jun 22, 2019)

wingsandsword said:


> He ignored me when I tried to tell him I could feel everything and it *HURT*. He said I was faking it and being dramatic, and when I tried to resist, he had his hygienist physically hold me down while he drilled one of my molars and filled it.
> .




Seriously? Somebody held you down and drilled into your tooth against your will? 

Medical procedures without consent are criminal acts. If what you are saying is true, you’ve been seriously assaulted by somebody who should be in prison.

I don't really know what to say. You have dentists holding you down and torturing you against your will, dentists fraudulently forcing you to undertake expensive treatment plans your insurance won't pay for... I dunno. Did you offend the Dentist Illuminati?


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## Scott DeWar (Jun 22, 2019)

wingsandsword said:


> You get fillings done without novocaine or anything similar?  Just letting the dentist drill into a tooth without any numbing agent whatsoever?
> 
> That's a little higher on the Fort Save DC than I'd like like to repeat.  I had a dentist do that to me once as a teenager, that was enough for a lifetime.



when I was 10, I had 6 fillings without Novocain. I also walked in to the ER in 2011 at the age of 48 with full on septic shock that had the docs put me in an induced coma for 6 weeks. one filling is noting on the pain scale now days.


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## Scott DeWar (Jun 22, 2019)

wingsandsword said:


> The problem was that the doctor did it wrong.
> 
> He _missed _with the needle of Novocaine.  Numbed part of my face and jaw, but that tooth still had sensation.
> 
> ...




He sounds like he needs a visit from the state medical board.


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## Eltab (Jun 23, 2019)

Morrus said:


> In other news, I have never heard of a dentist who would do a filling without a local anaesthetic.



Steve Martin's Sadistic Dentist - was that just in _Little Shop of Horrors_, or an independent comedy routine he worked up?


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## Zardnaar (Jun 23, 2019)

wingsandsword said:


> You get fillings done without novocaine or anything similar?  Just letting the dentist drill into a tooth without any numbing agent whatsoever?
> 
> That's a little higher on the Fort Save DC than I'd like like to repeat.  I had a dentist do that to me once as a teenager, that was enough for a lifetime.




Last one used nothing. Got some nerve damage 5 years ago teeth drilled doesn't do much by comparison. I didn't like the painkillers the doctor gave me so stopped using them. 

 When we were kids dental work at school was free but no pain relief was used. Turned out the dental nurse didn't believe in it her replacement used it though. 

 Last time dentist used this fast acting filling which set in 30 seconds or something. Skipped the drugs and had lunch right after it.

 Kebab/souvlaki addiction.


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## Zardnaar (Jun 23, 2019)

Morrus said:


> Zardnaar watched Marathon Man’s torture scene and thought “I can do that!”
> 
> In other news, I have never heard of a dentist who would do a filling without a local anaesthetic.




 Haven't seen it stopped using painkillers a few years back. Didn't like the side effects and most pain fades quickly.


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## Dioltach (Jun 23, 2019)

Morrus said:


> Did you offend the Dentist Illuminati?




The Tooth Fairy is real, and secretly runs the world.


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## Morrus (Jun 23, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Haven't seen it stopped using painkillers a few years back. Didn't like the side effects and most pain fades quickly.




[video=youtube;kzw1_2b-I7A]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzw1_2b-I7A[/video]


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## Scott DeWar (Jun 23, 2019)

Dioltach said:


> The Tooth Fairy is real, and secretly runs the world.



so the tooth fairy is the high master general of the dental Illuminati?


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## Blue (Jun 23, 2019)

Dioltach said:


> The Tooth Fairy is real, and secretly runs the world.




Once I feel asleep with my head under my pillow and I awoke with no teeth and a mouth full of quarters.




_(Monty Python voice: "I got better.")_


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## Blue (Jun 23, 2019)

wingsandsword said:


> The problem was that the doctor did it wrong.
> 
> He _missed _with the needle of Novocaine.  Numbed part of my face and jaw, but that tooth still had sensation.
> 
> ...




This sounds like criminal charges and a lawsuit.  Too bad it's likely far past the point you could do that.

While this is very believable from 20 years ago when it happened to you, luckily I have a hard time picturing this happening in the US now.  Malpractice insurance is hideously expensive compared to other countries and no medical professional I know would dare risk something like this when the alternative is just administering more Novocain, which they have handy.  Sure it's a few minutes lost for it to take effect, but much better then a lawsuit.


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## Blue (Jun 23, 2019)

wingsandsword said:


> Yeah, that's basically my suspicion on this, that it's something that this dentist is doing to maximize his take, to engage in bill padding.
> 
> I'm planning on seeing a second dentist, getting a second opinion.  If a second dentist says I don't need this 4x a year schedule with bigger, more expensive appointments, I'll trust the second opinion on that.
> 
> The fact that every visit after the first one has involved the dentist saying there are no problems, no issues, everything's looking good ect. . .makes me very suspicious about this.




Tell your dentist you need the normal cleanings covered by insurance, that it's a hardship.  See if you get at least 2 of the 4 covered, and the others cheaper.


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## CorbanWeiss (Jun 24, 2019)

Keep fighting


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## Imaculata (Jun 24, 2019)

Morrus said:


> In other news, I have never heard of a dentist who would do a filling without a local anaesthetic.




Getting a filling done does not hurt as much as people think. It's not fun, but it beats having to deal with the feeling of a numb jaw long after your visit to the dentist. There's plenty of dentists that will do a filling in the Netherlands without an anaesthetic, but these days they always offer to give you one. I tend to decline. When I grew up none of the dentists gave you one for a simple filling, you just had to endure it.


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## Zardnaar (Jun 24, 2019)

Idk what they use here, stick needle in jaw numb mouth pay me $180 dollars. Just quicker and easier not to use it. Used to not now. 

 Pains about a 2 or 3 on the Zard pain scale. One of my old player broke a tooth and removed it himself using pliers. Same player turned up to D&D after getting hit by a car played the session then went to hospital. Had subdermal bruising and he was in pain and stiffening up at the end of session.

 Idk if yanking your own tooth out with toolbox pliers is a good idea. 

 Belfar you mad bastard.


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## Istbor (Jun 24, 2019)

I have long since outlived to tough guy, the pain isn't that bad, mentality. 
And I have yet to see a D&D campaign that I would prolong a visit to the hospital for. Especially after a car hit me. 

Only go with a 6 month cycle if 4 is too much. I can afford it and my insurance covers it, but I still feel like that often is just too much. 

I think some of this is dependent on the dentist and their own philosophy. I have had one that wants to do work right away as something comes up, and my current is more conservative. Prefers to watch a bit first to see how things progress and whether additional action is needed.


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## Imaculata (Jun 25, 2019)

I am by no means a 'tough guy', but getting a filling from a skilled dentist barely hurts. Skilled being the operative word here. If your dentist knows what he/she's doing, you should be fine. And it saves money too.


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## wingsandsword (Jun 25, 2019)

Blue said:


> This sounds like criminal charges and a lawsuit.  Too bad it's likely far past the point you could do that.
> 
> While this is very believable from 20 years ago when it happened to you, luckily I have a hard time picturing this happening in the US now.  Malpractice insurance is hideously expensive compared to other countries and no medical professional I know would dare risk something like this when the alternative is just administering more Novocain, which they have handy.  Sure it's a few minutes lost for it to take effect, but much better then a lawsuit.




Yeah, I grew up in rural Kentucky.  Back when I was growing up there, from the early 80's to the mid 90's a lot of stuff happened that would get people sued to oblivion now, but people just accepted it as the way things were.

Heck, that wasn't even the biggest lawsuit that would have happened from stuff from my childhood, under modern standards.

We had a junior high guidance counselor who thought herself much more of a psychologist than she really was.  She started calling in students for random questioning.  Just calling them in and interviewing them.  She was apparently on a fishing expedition for signs of abuse or neglect or anything she could label as mental illness.

Well, she called me into her tiny little office one day, and asked me a lot of stuff about my home life, about what my parents do, about what a typical day at home is like for me, and so on.  At the end, she just sent me on my way back to class after about an hour.

What I DIDNT know was that from that one conversation, she'd diagnosed me with clinical depression.  Her basis for this diagnosis?  I told her I liked it when it rains and like to watch it rain.  She figured that only a depressed person could like a rainy day, so she concluded I was depressed.

Her course of action on this?  Instead of tell my parents, she told all the teachers at school.  She apparently shared her "diagnosis" with everyone in the teacher's lounge (this was circa 1991, HIPPA wouldn't be passed until 1996, and I'm pretty sure a school guidance counselor isn't considered competent to diagnose anyone with clinical depression). 

My mother found out about it a few weeks later when she came to school to drop something off.  The school librarian came up to my mother and said she was so sorry to hear about me.  My mother had no idea what was going on.  She then found out, from the school librarian, that the guidance counselor had diagnosed me as depressed and told the whole faculty of the school. . .and didn't say one word about it to her or my father.

Yeah, she was in the principal's office moments later chewing him out, and chewing out the guidance counselor.  The counselor apparently tried to stand by her diagnosis, saying that there's no way a normal kid could enjoy a rainy day, since it would be rainy and a kid would be stuck inside with nothing to do except watch it rain and there would be nothing on the TV that would interest a kid most of the day since mid-day TV was all soap operas and news.

My mother had to point out that rainy days in our house were days we'd stay in and make a pot of chili or stew, watch movies together on the VCR, that I had a Nintendo and a couple dozen games, that I had a lot of legos and other toys. . .that it being rainy didn't mean that I didn't have anything to do and was stuck bored with nothing to do and somehow liking it.  She also had to point out to the guidance counselor something called Cable TV, and that I was a big fan of A&E and the History Channel et al. and could find something to watch mid-day other than a soap opera, talk show, or the noon news.

My guidance counselor had some old 1950's or 1960's idea of life and literally didn't realize that kids could play video games or watch videotapes ect. on a rainy day or that they had toys they could play with inside, she seemed to really think that a pre-teen boy's ONLY options for playing were to run around outside and that if it was raining, there was nothing to do at all.  Her anachronistic attitude extended to a total lack of discretion and privacy about her "diagnosis" she reached (and I still really doubt a junior high guidance counselor is competent to make such a diagnosis, especially after one interview).


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## Ryujin (Jun 27, 2019)

Morrus said:


> Zardnaar watched Marathon Man’s torture scene and thought “I can do that!”
> 
> In other news, I have never heard of a dentist who would do a filling without a local anaesthetic.




While I had my wisdom teeth removed after having received injections, my regular dental work like fillings is done while receiving nitrous oxide. Getting the needle hurts me more than the dental work does and I've had my mouth stay numb for 5 days, on one occasion, after receiving an injection for dental work.

Nitrous doesn't really do anything for the pain; it just makes you not mind it


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## Istbor (Jun 27, 2019)

Imaculata said:


> I am by no means a 'tough guy', but getting a filling from a skilled dentist barely hurts. Skilled being the operative word here. If your dentist knows what he/she's doing, you should be fine. And it saves money too.




Understandable. I am talking more to the, let's pull it out with a pliers or, getting hit by a car and thinking playing D&D right after is a good idea.


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## Zardnaar (Jun 28, 2019)

We thought it was a bad idea at the time. Tried telling him. The tooth was broken in a MMA sparring training. I would have gone to the hospital myself. 

 I had a mate working in a butchery and he wrecked his back enough to require surgery, one year off work (mine was 2 months). He stopped using injections as well. 

 Not so much tough guy but pain is relative, or you get sick of pain killers if you use them for a while. Or when other medication makes you bleed internally.


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## wingsandsword (Jul 6, 2019)

An epilogue to this story:

Today I went to a different dentist.

I chose a completely different dentist, totally unaffiliated with the last one, in a different town (actually much closer to where I live now).

I got a second opinion.

I had this new dentist tell me I absolutely did NOT need to come in every 3 months, that I absolutely did NOT need the more expensive "periodontal maintenance" appointments, and that there was no basis for any of that.  I got a clean bill of health, dentally speaking, that I've got no cavities, no periodontal disease, and no notable dental problems.

So, I'm going to the new dentist.


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## Zardnaar (Jul 6, 2019)

You only really need to go when you have pain/cavity. Once a year if you care about check ups.


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## Blue (Jul 6, 2019)

wingsandsword said:


> An epilogue to this story:
> 
> Today I went to a different dentist.
> 
> ...




You have not been vindicated.  Yet.

Because what the new dentist told you agrees with what you were already wanted to believe, it may seen like this is correct.  That's called confirmation bias and happens with literally everyone.  Traditionally, going against any innate bias is hard, you want to ignore or discredit conflicting points of view.

But what you have is two different professionals with two different opinions.  Nothing says which of them (if either) is correct.  If you want that, find a tiebreaker.  Know for sure.

Also, does the new dentist have access to your dental history (the old should be willing to fax (*cough*) them over).  Specifically about you having gum disease before?


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## wingsandsword (Jul 6, 2019)

Blue said:


> You have not been vindicated.  Yet.
> 
> Because what the new dentist told you agrees with what you were already wanted to believe, it may seen like this is correct.  That's called confirmation bias and happens with literally everyone.  Traditionally, going against any innate bias is hard, you want to ignore or discredit conflicting points of view.
> 
> ...




Yes, I have been vindicated.

You're placing a LOT of trust in that first dentist's opinion, that just happened to mean they'd be able to bill me for a LOT more in dental work.  

That first dentist also said I could *never* get regular cleanings again, that if they even tried to bill for it, the insurance wouldn't let them, that they had no choice but to bill for the more expensive "periodontal maintenance" visits.  

When I was doing my intake with the new dentist, I told them all about my prior dentist, their claims I had gum disease, their claims I was ineligible for regular cleanings and insurance would never pay for it for me again. . .they told me that was baloney.  They even had to call to verify my coverage, and while they had them on the line called to verify that (I asked them to verify, since they were very insistent about it). . .the insurance company said no, that's nonsense.  A regular cleaning is a lower-cost dental code, they'd much rather pay for that than the higher-cost "periodontal maintenance" code.

So, that's one thing the old dental office told me that's been outright *proven *to be false. . .and it just happened to be something that also meant they could bill me for a LOT more money.  

They don't have the actual records, they didn't request them, I did verbally tell both the front office and the dentist herself what they'd said to me.  The front office said they were outright lying to me about the billing practices at the other place. . .and the dentist said she saw no sign I had gum disease or ever had gum disease, and even if I did, saying I'd have to come in every 3 months _for the rest of my life _was absurd.  She said if I ever did have gum disease, it had completely healed (and as such was probably pretty minor to begin with) and there was no indication I'd ever had it.  If I hadn't told her about it, she'd never have known otherwise.

Let's remove the medical aspect from this.  So, if I have car trouble, I take the car to a mechanic, and they say I need $2500 in automotive work. . .and I take it to a different mechanic and they say it's a simple $150 fix. . .I should get a third opinion because I have two separate opinions?  In the real world, that means that it's a $150 problem that a mechanic tried to soak you for a $2500 bill for.  

Same thing, Dentists assume people trust them, so if they say you need a lot of dental work and expensive procedures, people trust them. . .taking it to a second opinion that sees absolutely no need for all that work and procedures means a lot.  There's a reason the term "second opinion" is used to describe getting confirmation on a questionable or dubious diagnosis or suggested course of action, not "third opinion".


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## Blue (Jul 6, 2019)

wingsandsword said:


> Yes, I have been vindicated.
> 
> You're placing a LOT of trust in that first dentist's opinion, that just happened to mean they'd be able to bill me for a LOT more in dental work.




I am placing no trust in the either dentist.  Trying to claim otherwise is trying to rationalize away my point because it doesn't match what you want to be true.



wingsandsword said:


> That first dentist also said I could *never* get regular cleanings again, that if they even tried to bill for it, the insurance wouldn't let them, that they had no choice but to bill for the more expensive "periodontal maintenance" visits.
> 
> When I was doing my intake with the new dentist, I told them all about my prior dentist, their claims I had gum disease, their claims I was ineligible for regular cleanings and insurance would never pay for it for me again. . .they told me that was baloney.  They even had to call to verify my coverage, and while they had them on the line called to verify that (I asked them to verify, since they were very insistent about it). . .the insurance company said no, that's nonsense.  A regular cleaning is a lower-cost dental code, they'd much rather pay for that than the higher-cost "periodontal maintenance" code.
> 
> So, that's one thing the old dental office told me that's been outright *proven *to be false. . .and it just happened to be something that also meant they could bill me for a LOT more money.




There, you have proof that part of what the first dentist told you is a lie. That's fantastic.  I had missed that they said insurance wouldn't pay, not just that this is what they thought you medically required and they'd be doing moving forward.

At this point, in you are in the US you should report them to your insurance and take them to court.  That is illegal and you can probably recover all of what you paid and possibly punitive damages.



wingsandsword said:


> They don't have the actual records, they didn't request them, I did verbally tell both the front office and the dentist herself what they'd said to me.  The front office said they were outright lying to me about the billing practices at the other place. . .and the dentist said she saw no sign I had gum disease or ever had gum disease, and even if I did, saying I'd have to come in every 3 months _for the rest of my life _was absurd.  She said if I ever did have gum disease, it had completely healed (and as such was probably pretty minor to begin with) and there was no indication I'd ever had it.  If I hadn't told her about it, she'd never have known otherwise.




So you are saying that after 20 years without care, there is no chance that you had gum disease?  With the proof being that after one dentist (claimed to) dealt with it and then continued on a 3 month schedule of cleanings that another dentist several years later doesn't seeing it.

I don't have faith in either dentist, you seem to have absolute faith in the second one.



wingsandsword said:


> Let's remove the medical aspect from this.  So, if I have car trouble, I take the car to a mechanic, and they say I need $2500 in automotive work. . .and I take it to a different mechanic and they say it's a simple $150 fix. . .I should get a third opinion because I have two separate opinions?  In the real world, that means that it's a $150 problem that a mechanic tried to soak you for a $2500 bill for.




Case 1:  Mechanic 1 was soaking you.  You go with mechanic 2, save $2350.  Happiness.

Case 2:  Mechanic 2 misses an issue (or is willing to put down your previous mechanic to get the business and your regular oil changes.)  You spend $150, and two months later the car breaks down at on the highway and the bill is $10000 (repairs plus people hurt).  Unhappiness.

I think both of these cases are possible.



wingsandsword said:


> Same thing, Dentists assume people trust them, so if they say you need a lot of dental work and expensive procedures, people trust them. . .taking it to a second opinion that sees absolutely no need for all that work and procedures means a lot.  There's a reason the term "second opinion" is used to describe getting confirmation on a questionable or dubious diagnosis or suggested course of action, not "third opinion".




Absolutely.  I don't trust the first one either.  _But if you have two professionals saying very different things, that does not guarantee that the cheaper one is the one in the right._  Or that the truth isn't somewhere between.


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