# The Expanse



## Nellisir (Mar 17, 2017)

This has unquestionably hit "must-watch" status for me. It's SF done about as right as can be done.  It's incredible.


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## cmad1977 (Mar 17, 2017)

Great show


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## Dannyalcatraz (Mar 17, 2017)

Thirded.  If they keep the quality at this level, it's going to be mentioned in the same conversations as the legends of the genre.


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## jonesy (Mar 17, 2017)

If you like the tv show, you could also check out the excellent book series it's based on.

The one detail which I liked the most about both is that this is the first time we've seen an almost plausibly realistic stealth space ship. The ship is painted black so it's hard to eyeball and the "front" of the ship is molded to deflect radar away from it. Heat is the biggest problem, and the main reason why stealth in space is impossible, but they skirt around the issue quite nicely.


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## Ryujin (Mar 17, 2017)

Nice to see something closer to real physics in a TV show.


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## Joker (Mar 17, 2017)

jonesy said:


> If you like the tv show, you could also check out the excellent book series it's based on.
> 
> The one detail which I liked the most about both is that this is the first time we've seen an almost plausibly realistic stealth space ship. The ship is painted black so it's hard to eyeball and the "front" of the ship is molded to deflect radar away from it. Heat is the biggest problem, and the main reason why stealth in space is impossible, but they skirt around the issue quite nicely.




But wouldn't the heat generated from life-support and other systems be enough to make it stand out from its environment?


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## Ryujin (Mar 17, 2017)

Joker said:


> But wouldn't the heat generated from life-support and other systems be enough to make it stand out from its environment?




It's still like trying to find one hot grain of sand on a cold beach.


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## Joker (Mar 17, 2017)

Ryujin said:


> It's still like trying to find one hot grain of sand on a cold beach.




Voyager at 18 billion km away is easily visible from the background while only generating a 20 watt radio signal with a radio telescope. I can imagine how a ship generating terawatts in thrust would stand out. As far as I understand it, there's no easy or fast way to get rid of the heat you generate in space.


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## jonesy (Mar 17, 2017)

Joker said:


> But wouldn't the heat generated from life-support and other systems be enough to make it stand out from its environment?



That is why I said that heat is the main reason stealth in space is impossible. Right in the part you quoted.


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## Joker (Mar 17, 2017)

jonesy said:


> That is why I said that heat is the main reason stealth in space is impossible. Right in the part you quoted.




Then I misunderstood what you wrote. When you said that they skirted around the issue, I thought you meant that they found a way to make stealth possible.


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## Ryujin (Mar 17, 2017)

Joker said:


> Voyager at 18 billion km away is easily visible from the background while only generating a 20 watt radio signal with a radio telescope. I can imagine how a ship generating terawatts in thrust would stand out. As far as I understand it, there's no easy or fast way to get rid of the heat you generate in space.




Somewhat easier when you know precisely which cubic inch of sand you need to look at in the first place.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Mar 17, 2017)

I was gonna point that out.


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## jonesy (Mar 17, 2017)

True, but knowing where to look for is still something other than stealth. Stealth is staying hidden even when someone does know where to look for.


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## Joker (Mar 17, 2017)

Ryujin said:


> Somewhat easier when you know precisely which cubic inch of sand you need to look at in the first place.




We can, with current technology, scan the entire sky in about four hours. I suspect that future tech can do it faster. The only problem with this method is that you might miss objects within a couple of degrees of the sun. But again, when we're at the level of trying to build stealth ships, you could probably outfit your telescopes with occlusion filters when searching that area.

Don't get me wrong, I love The Expanse. It is hands down one of my favorite shows, not just right now, but of all time. But stealth in space seems pretty unlikely unless you can get rid of your heat.
I suspect the stealthiness of the ship in The Expanse has more to do with thwarting active sensors like the radar guidance from torpedoes than actually becoming invisible from radio telescopes.


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## Janx (Mar 17, 2017)

anyway, I like the show.   We're on season 2 via Amazon (no cable).


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## Nellisir (Mar 17, 2017)

Ryujin said:


> Somewhat easier when you know precisely which cubic inch of sand you need to look at in the first place.




We've lost satellites in Earth orbit, and Planet X is hiding pretty well. I'm not sweating stealth ships in space.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Mar 17, 2017)

I expect that a stealth ship in space would be heavily heat insulated, and would sink its heat into internal storage areas, only venting such when under thrust.

Hmm...if you use chunks of a ceramic material as your heat sink, ejecting it might be functionally like chaff...


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## Joker (Mar 17, 2017)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> I expect that a stealth ship in space would be heavily heat insulated, and would sink its heat into internal storage areas, only venting such when under thrust.
> 
> Hmm...if you use chunks of a ceramic material as your heat sink, ejecting it might be functionally like chaff...




That seems unfeasible. How would you store the heat coming from your thrusters? And your habitable area still has to maintain a temperature nearly 300 Celcius higher than the surrounding area. I can somewhat imagine ships without a human crew having some stealth capacity but the moment they use their engines, they'll light up.


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## tomBitonti (Mar 17, 2017)

Great show!  I do wonder how folks who have not read the books are able to fit the story together.  (I haven't, but I read the book back outlines, so have an idea of what is going on.)

Re: Stealth in Space.  Did some looking, and found contradictory answers.

This would seem to be convincing:

http://txchnologist.com/post/61492589701/did-you-know-we-can-still-spot-voyager-1

But, I am wondering, is that for a directional source with a narrow broadcast wavelength?

Project Rho seems to be a common link, and their conclusion is that *stealth in space is impossible*:

http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/spacewardetect.php

I would tend to agree for a ship which is *using a lot of energy*, or which is *on active thrust*.

There are also links to this:

http://www.rocketpunk-manifesto.com/2009/06/space-warfare-ii-stealth-reconsidered.html

Both of the preceding provide must as far as convincing calculations.

This one seemed best, in that it provides some basic calculations, and it contradicts the above in that it concludes that *stealth is possible*, essentially by *keeping energy use low*, and by *pointing heat sources away* from folks who you want to not see you.

http://scienceblogs.com/builtonfacts/2010/03/10/while-doing-some-poking-around/

Here is one more link:

http://worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/questions/672/is-there-any-way-to-truly-hide-a-spaceship

This discussion is interesting (I'm still reading):

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.arts.sf.science/MhMfawsVuGM[1-25]

Thx!
TomB


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## Azurewraith (Mar 17, 2017)

I enjoyed the series, was a bit to slow initially for me but it is certainly worth a watch.


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## cmad1977 (Mar 17, 2017)

Jeez guys. 
The 'stealth' ship was clearly visible to the Donnager. Clearly 'stealth' doesn't mean completely invisible. 

It did start a little slow for me too... but then the 'Canterbury', havelocks staking and Sheds big episode happen so... yeah I'm in. 


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## Azurewraith (Mar 17, 2017)

I think in the instance stealth is more of a wont show up on radar/cursory glance, but if you know roughly where to look you can and will find it.


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## Nellisir (Mar 17, 2017)

tomBitonti said:


> Great show!  I do wonder how folks who have not read the books are able to fit the story together.  (I haven't, but I read the book back outlines, so have an idea of what is going on.)




I read the books, and just reread them in the past month. Frankly, The Expanse is one of the best adaptations I've ever seen. The books are excellent, and the show is, in many ways, even better.


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## tuxgeo (Mar 17, 2017)

Re: Dissipating energy in directions away from the people who you want not to see you: 
How about as high-powered "fast radio bursts" toward the galactic North and South? At high frequencies, radio waves are directible.


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## tomBitonti (Mar 17, 2017)

cmad1977 said:


> Jeez guys.
> The 'stealth' ship was clearly visible to the Donnager. Clearly 'stealth' doesn't mean completely invisible.
> 
> It did start a little slow for me too... but then the 'Canterbury', havelocks staking and Sheds big episode happen so... yeah I'm in.
> ...




Here "stealth" is at a distance.

In the chase sequence in the show, the danger was in losing the ship once it had turned off its engines and moved out of visual range.

I do agree that for the relatively close distances in the show, the ship ought not to have been able to hide, having lots of energy to dissipate after the hard burn.

Thx!
TomB


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## tomBitonti (Mar 17, 2017)

tuxgeo said:


> Re: Dissipating energy in directions away from the people who you want not to see you:
> How about as high-powered "fast radio bursts" toward the galactic North and South? At high frequencies, radio waves are directible.




I'm thinking that gives you a "refrigeration laser" that uses radio frequencies, in the sense of Sundiver, by David Brin.

There is an interesting discussion here: https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=22649.0

Thx!
TomB


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## Nutation (Mar 17, 2017)

Hard science wins me over.
I like the depiction of thrust gravity, which is very rare for TV. We occasionally see braking thrust applied, though maybe not as often as we should. (Ships IIRC are usually pointed at their destination as they approach. We do see attitude thrusters fire, though.)
I just saw Amos dangling from the outside of spinning Tycho Station.
Also, high-gee stress.
What we don't see is any discussion of efficient orbits or delta-V. All of the belt locations feel close together, with Earth, Mars, and Jupiter being "farther away". It's as though everything is on the same side of the sun so that distances are just a function of the various bodies' orbital diameters.
Some of the plotting is unexpected and perhaps innovative. The story started out with 3 different groups of protagonists, and they still haven't all met. We've added other points of view since, though, so it's not that simple.
In the first episode, Miller is looking for Julie Mao, who is young, rich, beautiful, and got herself in trouble. In conventional plotting, he finds & rescues her by the end of Season 1, at which point we get the big reveal about the next threat. That ain't how it happened.
I haven't read the book, but I find the story easy enough to follow. There may be a lot of background on how and why that I'm missing. For example, with the recent flashback of how the testing of Mars' advanced drive went awry, I wasnt' clear on the fallout.
I've seen enough gritty, unreliable technology at this point that I take it in stride.


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## Ryujin (Mar 17, 2017)

Nutation said:


> Hard science wins me over.
> I like the depiction of thrust gravity, which is very rare for TV. We occasionally see braking thrust applied, though maybe not as often as we should. (Ships IIRC are usually pointed at their destination as they approach. We do see attitude thrusters fire, though.)
> I just saw Amos dangling from the outside of spinning Tycho Station.
> Also, high-gee stress.
> ...




The whole thing keeps making me think of the early Traveller RPG both because of delta-V drives and if you don't like your character make him a Belter, and he'll die during character creation.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Mar 17, 2017)

Joker said:


> That seems unfeasible. How would you store the heat coming from your thrusters? And your habitable area still has to maintain a temperature nearly 300 Celcius higher than the surrounding area. I can somewhat imagine ships without a human crew having some stealth capacity but the moment they use their engines, they'll light up.




AFAIK, you can't store heat under thrust.  That's why you'd void the heat sinks at that time.

Think of it like a submarine.  There are many things they can mask, but sounds can only be dampened to a certain point.  And while the most modern subs are incredibly quiet when moving, they're not undetectably so.  The stealthiest propellers still make noise.  So one of submariners' tactics to maintain stealth is immobility.

Likewise, a stealth spacecraft would only use thrusters when absolutely necessary.  With good heat sinks, and insulation, such a ship not under power might be virtually indistinguishable from debris or meteoroids.


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## Morrus (Mar 17, 2017)

They have a sci-if fictional Epstein drive. We don't know it's properties.


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## Ryujin (Mar 17, 2017)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> AFAIK, you can't store heat under thrust.  That's why you'd void the heat sinks at that time.
> 
> Think of it like a submarine.  There are many things they can mask, but sounds can only be dampened to a certain point.  And while the most modern subs are incredibly quiet when moving, they're not undetectably so.  The stealthiest propellers still make noise.  So one of submariners' tactics to maintain stealth is immobility.
> 
> Likewise, a stealth spacecraft would only use thrusters when absolutely necessary.  With good heat sinks, and insulation, such a ship not under power might be virtually indistinguishable from debris or meteoroids.




If you could columnate your thrust and duct your waste heat out along the same path, then put energy absorbent/refractory panels elsewhere, you would have essentially a single line along which easy detection would be possible. Passive sensors only when "running silent."


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## cmad1977 (Mar 17, 2017)

Nellisir said:


> I read the books, and just reread them in the past month. Frankly, The Expanse is one of the best adaptations I've ever seen. The books are excellent, and the show is, in many ways, even better.




I felt that way about the LoTR movies. I felt like they were the best adaptation of book to film for a modern audience. I'll have to give The Expanse books a look. 


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## Nellisir (Mar 17, 2017)

cmad1977 said:


> I felt that way about the LoTR movies. I felt like they were the best adaptation of book to film for a modern audience. I'll have to give The Expanse books a look.




The books are...I don't know that I'd call them deep, or game-changing, but they're *solid*. They are good SF, with alien goop, and people getting spaced, and power armor, and spaceship guns, and all that stuff. It's a lot like a really good D&D campaign in space, I think.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Mar 20, 2017)

One thing to consider regarding stealth in space is that we're talking about a solar system that is partially settled. So there are more heat sources then we have now, and figuring out if one source is relevant might take more time then it does now. And it's also one thing to detect "there is something" and to identify the exact position of it. If you have only up-to-date sensor information from one ship, it might not be enough to estimate the correct distance. 

----

I really enjoy The Expanse so far. Nice to see a more reality-grounded Sci-Fi show with a complex storyline. Dark Matter and KillJoys are a bit more action-fun and err on the fantastic side, for example.


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## Hussar (Mar 22, 2017)

I adored season 1 of this show.  Picked it up on Netflix and just devoured it.  Complex, good characters, fantastic story, lots and lots of goodies.  Want MORE.  

And I second Killjoys and Dark Matter.  Totally different shows, but, still tons of fun.  I probably favor Killjoys just because it's a bit less of a Serenity ripo... err... inspired by Serenity.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Mar 22, 2017)

Killjoys and Dark Matter are also killer!


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## RangerWickett (Jan 21, 2021)

So The Expanse is on season five now, and while I've been hot and cold about this season, the last two episodes have both had endings that were wonderfully badass. Who else is watching it?

I haven't read the books, but I might need to pick them up after this season ends to bridge until the sixth season.


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## Nellisir (Jan 21, 2021)

RangerWickett said:


> So The Expanse is on season five now, and while I've been hot and cold about this season, the last two episodes have both had endings that were wonderfully badass. Who else is watching it?
> 
> I haven't read the books, but I might need to pick them up after this season ends to bridge until the sixth season.



I'm here for it every Wednesday.


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## Zardnaar (Jan 21, 2021)

I'm up to date.


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## Vael (Jan 21, 2021)

RangerWickett said:


> So The Expanse is on season five now, and while I've been hot and cold about this season, the last two episodes have both had endings that were wonderfully badass. Who else is watching it?
> 
> I haven't read the books, but I might need to pick them up after this season ends to bridge until the sixth season.




I read the first two books, kinda dropped them after that.

Super enjoying the series, this season is stronger than last for me. Didn't care for the extended planet stay.


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## ccs (Jan 21, 2021)

jonesy said:


> If you like the tv show, you could also check out the excellent book series it's based on.



I plan to once the series ends.  
Unfortunately that's going to be with season 6.


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## MarkB (Jan 21, 2021)

I remember this being my least favourite novel of the series when I listened to it, due to the whole Earth-being-devastated thing, the breakup of the crew, and general lack of Protomolecule wibblyness, but I'm enjoying it as a season. Inaros isn't quite as insufferable in this version, and they're doing a good job of intercutting the storylines.


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## Janx (Jan 21, 2021)

MarkB said:


> I remember this being my least favourite novel of the series when I listened to it, due to the whole Earth-being-devastated thing, the breakup of the crew, and general lack of Protomolecule wibblyness, but I'm enjoying it as a season. Inaros isn't quite as insufferable in this version, and they're doing a good job of intercutting the storylines.



There's some chatter about problems with Inaros in the TV show being a soap opera villain and cookie cutter terrorist.

I worry if the book version's worse.  Just finished book 3 the other day.


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## payn (Jan 21, 2021)

I really enjoy The Expanse, though season 4 and 5 have felt like half seasons stretched out to full seasons.


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## Imaculata (Jan 21, 2021)

I'm up to speed with the new season. It definitely is more grim than the previous seasons, but the stakes are also super high. The idea of having the main cast separated for most of the season is interesting and it is fun to see different team ups.

I'm sad however to hear that Kas won't be in the last season due to stuff behind the scenes.


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## Ryujin (Jan 21, 2021)

Imaculata said:


> I'm up to speed with the new season. It definitely is more grim than the previous seasons, but the stakes are also super high. The idea of having the main cast separated for most of the season is interesting and it is fun to see different team ups.
> 
> I'm sad however to hear that Kas won't be in the last season due to stuff behind the scenes.



Early on in the season my brain was screaming, "Don't split the party!!"

No Cas Anvar? That sucks. Alex is one of my favourite characters and I love the interaction between Alex and Bobbie.


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## Janx (Jan 21, 2021)

Imaculata said:


> I'm up to speed with the new season. It definitely is more grim than the previous seasons, but the stakes are also super high. The idea of having the main cast separated for most of the season is interesting and it is fun to see different team ups.
> 
> I'm sad however to hear that Kas won't be in the last season due to stuff behind the scenes.



the split up was a neat departure to change up the story.

I just caught up on the news that Alex Kamal's actor Cas Anvar is not in season 6 due to sexual misconduct and assault allegations that were investigated over the summer.  I liked his character a lot, and its disheartening to hear this about him.


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## Imaculata (Jan 22, 2021)

Yeah, I am also very fond of his character. Plus he deserves a lot of credit as an actor for saving the Expanse. It was shocking and disheartening to hear of those sexual assault allegations in regards to his fans. I'm confident the showrunners would not be taking this step unless it looked really bad.


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## payn (Jan 22, 2021)

Wow, that sucks...


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## wicked cool (Jan 22, 2021)

wow

will season 6 wrap up the sory or will it just end ? If its just ending that's 2 bad as amazon needs much more programing choices


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## embee (Jan 22, 2021)

Nothing hurts me quite like the insane claim that Amos is from Baltimore. If he says he's from Bal-ti-more (as opposed to Bawlmur, Mairlyn), then he's not from Baltimore, MD.


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## Ryujin (Jan 22, 2021)

embee said:


> Nothing hurts me quite like the insane claim that Amos is from Baltimore. If he says he's from Bal-ti-more (as opposed to Bawlmur, Mairlyn), then he's not from Baltimore, MD.



Perhaps diction has come full circle, with easily available world wide communications, and now people actually speak in comprehensible sentences


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## embee (Jan 22, 2021)

Ryujin said:


> Perhaps diction has come full circle, with easily available world wide communications, and now people actually speak in comprehensible sentences



Humanity might have the Epstein Drive and Ring Gates but e-in in 2350, foke don by Dundock'll still be gidn drunk awn sh**ty Naddy Bo by duh wooder and mashin erry wurd, n madder how lawn, inna tew sillbulls. 

Signed, 

Some schmuck who grew up outside of Warshington.


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## MNblockhead (Jan 22, 2021)

I'm up to date with the TV show. Have not read the books. 

I've enjoyed the season so far.


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## Nellisir (Jan 23, 2021)

Janx said:


> There's some chatter about problems with Inaros in the TV show being a soap opera villain and cookie cutter terrorist.
> 
> I worry if the book version's worse.  Just finished book 3 the other day.



Really? I wasn't too thrilled with the book version but it's making a lot more sense to me in the context of the show. He's a classic manipulator/con-man/sociopath. He has no empathy; everyone is a tool to be used; he's charming and manipulative and HAS to be seen and admired and make it look like EVERYTHING is his idea/under his control; and frankly he has massive weak spots that haven't really been revealed in the show yet. There are reasons he spent so long as a fairly minor player in the Belt, and reasons why he jumped up to the big leagues.

He reminds me of a certain recent President, tbh.


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## Vael (Jan 24, 2021)

Well, as noted, just giving over warships goes way beyond money to the Martians. There has to be more in play, at least from the Martian perspective, for them to support Inaros.


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## dragoner (Jan 25, 2021)

I was voted Avasarala/Shohreh's biggest fan in the old Expanse fan group when they were on sci-fi, I didn't follow them over to Amazon, as I try to avoid anything to do with them.


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## billd91 (Jan 25, 2021)

Vael said:


> Well, as noted, just giving over warships goes way beyond money to the Martians. There has to be more in play, at least from the Martian perspective, for them to support Inaros.



Sure. We're also watching the rapid and potentially complete unravelling of the Martian identity. Before the ring, the Martians had a certain level of unity imposed by the need to terraform Mars. They endured, together, for the promises made to future generations on the only other rock in the solar system capable of that sort of habitation. Then the ring's gates offer a (probably) much easier path to terrestrial life now instead of generations down the line.
That's a pretty big factor in play.


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## Ryujin (Jan 25, 2021)

billd91 said:


> Sure. We're also watching the rapid and potentially complete unravelling of the Martian identity. Before the ring, the Martians had a certain level of unity imposed by the need to terraform Mars. They endured, together, for the promises made to future generations on the only other rock in the solar system capable of that sort of habitation. Then the ring's gates offer a (probably) much easier path to terrestrial life now instead of generations down the line.
> That's a pretty big factor in play.



And Inaros is their most likely path to the Ring Worlds, so "me first" starts to enter play rather heavily.


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## Mallus (Jan 26, 2021)

Janx said:


> There's some chatter about problems with Inaros in the TV show being a soap opera villain and cookie cutter terrorist.
> 
> I worry if the book version's worse.  Just finished book 3 the other day.



I think the show’s version of Inaros is better than the book’s. Much like with Klaes Ashford, who is a disposable one-dimensional villain in the novels.

The actor playing Macro is doing a good job putting the character’s weaknesses on display. You really get a sense of why he won, to the extent he did, and why it’s inevitable he’ll lose (aside from being on the wrong side of Holden & Naomi, etc.).


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## Nellisir (Jan 26, 2021)

Ryujin said:


> And Inaros is their most likely path to the Ring Worlds, so "me first" starts to enter play rather heavily.



I find myself constrained by potential spoilers. And intrigued by where the series has focused attention this season.


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## Hussar (Jan 26, 2021)

Having a really weird experience with Amazon right now.  The Engish version of the show has more or less deleted the sound track for the English speakers.  The closed captions work fine, and all the other language versions sound right, but, for some reason, the English version is all borked.  Very annoying.


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## MarkB (Jan 26, 2021)

Hussar said:


> Having a really weird experience with Amazon right now.  The Engish version of the show has more or less deleted the sound track for the English speakers.  The closed captions work fine, and all the other language versions sound right, but, for some reason, the English version is all borked.  Very annoying.



I haven't had any issues with the audio, but I do get another oddity - for some reason, any prominent signage visible on screen gets captioned in what I think is German, despite captions being turned off.


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## Imaculata (Jan 26, 2021)

wicked cool said:


> wow
> 
> will season 6 wrap up the sory or will it just end ? If its just ending that's 2 bad as amazon needs much more programing choices




As I understand it, the final book of the series is planned for release this year. So the last season of the show will probably borrow from the last 2 books in the series and hopefully bring the whole story to a satisfying conclusion.


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## Nellisir (Jan 27, 2021)

Imaculata said:


> As I understand it, the final book of the series is planned for release this year. So the last season of the show will probably borrow from the last 2 books in the series and hopefully bring the whole story to a satisfying conclusion.



There are 9 books in the series (#9 is due out) and the last two books 



Spoiler



take a big jump forward in time and


 work with the #7 book as a trilogy moreso than the previous books. I wasn't sure they'd touch it at all, but they're definitely planting the seeds. Season 5 is still on track with the series but season 6 is going to have to be a big departure. Extremely stripped down, if nothing else.


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## Vael (Feb 3, 2021)

After Episode 8 and 9 felt a little like treading water to me ... still enjoyable, but just not moving forward much, the finale made up for it in spades. Solid action all around. Looking forward to next season.


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## Mallus (Feb 3, 2021)

Yeah, that was the best episode of the series. And welcome to the Roci, Peaches!


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## Truth Seeker (Feb 3, 2021)

Damn....what a way for a cliffhanger.


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## Ryujin (Feb 3, 2021)

Mallus said:


> Yeah, that was the best episode of the series. And welcome to the Roci, Peaches!



I was hoping that Bobbie would make it there too, but it looks like she's taken a step up int he world(s).


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## payn (Feb 3, 2021)

I was pretty disappointed in finale (also the second half of this season in general.) I was sad to see the character Alex go, but I think they did the character right. Looking forward to more ring space shenanigans next season.


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## wicked cool (Feb 3, 2021)

MarkB said:


> I haven't had any issues with the audio, but I do get another oddity - for some reason, any prominent signage visible on screen gets captioned in what I think is German, despite captions being turned off.



i got this as well-noticed it during the memorial scene. Thought it was me at first


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## Zaukrie (Feb 3, 2021)

Great finale. There were times this year it dragged a bit, but they were generally good to great


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## MarkB (Feb 3, 2021)

Vael said:


> After Episode 8 and 9 felt a little like treading water to me ... still enjoyable, but just not moving forward much, the finale made up for it in spades. Solid action all around. Looking forward to next season.



Yeah, when episodes 8 and 9 both ended with Naomi suiting up to go back into that utility space, it definitely felt like they'd dragged out her fate over too many episodes.

Generally, the show still feels like it's catching up on several threads from the novels, but they've done enough set-up at this point that they should be able to hit at least the high notes from the remaining novels next season if it is to be the final one.


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## Mallus (Feb 3, 2021)

MarkB said:


> Generally, the show still feels like it's catching up on several threads from the novels, but they've done enough set-up at this point that they should be able to hit at least the high notes from the remaining novels next season if it is to be the final one.



Judging from the final scene, they sure are setting up the events in books 7 - 9. I really wonder how much, if any, gets folded into season 6? Would love to see a single high-budget season finish out the final trilogy. If Amazon is really out, I wonder if HBO could do it... Those B5 remasters are a nice start, but they need some more sci-fi content. 

(but please not a 2nd season of Watchmen - one was near-perfect & enough)


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## RangerWickett (Feb 3, 2021)

I wonder if different pacing would have helped, or if there needed to be some additional POV character to let us see more of the conflict, or even just having the Rocinante stop off some places rather than constantly being in space. Because yeah, it felt like it dragged and retreaded some plot beats. There were fewer instances of characters being tempted to switch sides, or folks maneuvering politically to change the balance of power, or even much inter-personal conflict that had any chance of shifting the story.

I'm not a book reader. How did the book compare?


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## MarkB (Feb 3, 2021)

RangerWickett said:


> I wonder if different pacing would have helped, or if there needed to be some additional POV character to let us see more of the conflict, or even just having the Rocinante stop off some places rather than constantly being in space. Because yeah, it felt like it dragged and retreaded some plot beats. There were fewer instances of characters being tempted to switch sides, or folks maneuvering politically to change the balance of power, or even much inter-personal conflict that had any chance of shifting the story.
> 
> I'm not a book reader. How did the book compare?



The book had more setbacks for Inaros, and showcased his ability to spin each new change of plans into "Ah, but this was the _real_ plan all along!"

The Belters' management of the Ring gates was also a plot point, with Medina station becoming more fleshed out and having some importance to the plot. The exodus of colonists from both Mars and the Belt played a larger role as a political turning point for both factions.


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## Vael (Feb 4, 2021)

From what I've heard, isn't there also a time skip or two in the books? I dunno, I started the third book, but haven't read past there.


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## MarkB (Feb 4, 2021)

Vael said:


> From what I've heard, isn't there also a time skip or two in the books? I dunno, I started the third book, but haven't read past there.



The time skip comes after these events.


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## Mallus (Feb 4, 2021)

Book 7 takes place almost 30 years after book 6.


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## Nellisir (Feb 4, 2021)

MarkB said:


> The book had more setbacks for Inaros, and showcased his ability to spin each new change of plans into "Ah, but this was the _real_ plan all along!"
> 
> The Belters' management of the Ring gates was also a plot point, with Medina station becoming more fleshed out and having some importance to the plot. The exodus of colonists from both Mars and the Belt played a larger role as a political turning point for both factions.



I haven't seen the finale yet, but yeah - the series has sorta undersold his constant need to be right. EVERYTHING was "according to plan", even as it totally disintegrated. He was simply unable to ever recognize a failure or a mistake.


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## Imaculata (Feb 7, 2021)

Having now seen the finale, I'm feeling a bit underwhelmed. Without spoiling anything for those that haven't seen it, it feels they skipped over a lot of things in a hurry, that would have been far more interesting to see unfold over the last 3 episodes of the season. Instead they drag Naomi's plot on forever, and it really started to bore me. This whole season was a bit messy, and how they deal with the issues behind the scenes with one of the actors, by changing the plot from the books, feels not entirely right to me.


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## Ryujin (Feb 7, 2021)

Imaculata said:


> Having now seen the finale, I'm feeling a bit underwhelmed. Without spoiling anything for those that haven't seen it, it feels they skipped over a lot of things in a hurry, that would have been far more interesting to see unfold over the last 3 episodes of the season. Instead they drag Naomi's plot on forever, and it really started to bore me. This whole season was a bit messy, and how they deal with the issues behind the scenes with one of the actors, by changing the plot from the books, feels not entirely right to me.



Given what happened it was either replace the actor, in the style of a soap opera ("Today the character of James will be played by an actor who looks nothing like the original"), or give the character a heartfelt exit. I think the latter was the way to go and was well done.


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## Imaculata (Feb 7, 2021)

Ryujin said:


> Given what happened it was either replace the actor, in the style of a soap opera ("Today the character of James will be played by an actor who looks nothing like the original"), or give the character a heartfelt exit. I think the latter was the way to go and was well done.




I completely understand why they did what they did, but it still feels jarring. It is also a shame when the show feels it needs to depart from the plot in the books because of the actor's real life behavior. I realize that it is a bit late to recast him now. It would be utterly bizar to have a completely different actor playing the part for the last 2 seasons (it was bizarre when Game of Throne recast Daario for example). And of course the things he did behind the scenes are inexcusable and should be condemned. But the way the season now ends, feels very unnatural and a bit of a betrayal of the source material and the character. There might not be a good way to solve this.


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## MarkB (Feb 7, 2021)

Imaculata said:


> I completely understand why they did what they did, but it still feels jarring. It is also a shame when the show feels it needs to depart from the plot in the books because of the actor's real life behavior. I realize that it is a bit late to recast him now. It would be utterly bizar to have a completely different actor playing the part for the last 2 seasons (it was bizarre when Game of Throne recast Daario for example). And of course the things he did behind the scenes are inexcusable and should be condemned. But the way the season now ends, feels very unnatural and a bit of a betrayal of the source material and the character. There might not be a good way to solve this.



To be fair, the entire conclusion of this season is a departure from the novels, not just the writing-out of Alex, and I think that is a deliberate choice in recognition of the fact that they simply will not have enough episodes to fully explore the conclusion of the series as it happens in the books (which, for one thing, haven't actually concluded - it's still an ongoing story as of the one most recently published).

So I think they do have a conclusion in mind, one which will hopefully pick up some of the major plot elements of the subsequent novels, and what they are enacting now is the course-change that's needed in order to steer towards that conclusion.


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## Ryujin (Feb 7, 2021)

MarkB said:


> To be fair, the entire conclusion of this season is a departure from the novels, not just the writing-out of Alex, and I think that is a deliberate choice in recognition of the fact that they simply will not have enough episodes to fully explore the conclusion of the series as it happens in the books (which, for one thing, haven't actually concluded - it's still an ongoing story as of the one most recently published).
> 
> So I think they do have a conclusion in mind, one which will hopefully pick up some of the major plot elements of the subsequent novels, and what they are enacting now is the course-change that's needed in order to steer towards that conclusion.



And real life rarely intrudes upon literature, unless the event is the death of the author. There are realities that must be dealt with, day-to-day, when it comes to live production.


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## Nellisir (Feb 7, 2021)

I thought the finale was fine. They didn't call out the level of misdirection that's going on with Marco and the Martians, but it makes sense to keep Marco as an opponent for some of the last season. Not the strongest season overall, but head and shoulders above almost anything else out there regardless.

The acting and characters have just been amazing. Like, jaw-droppingly good. Amos, obviously, and his awareness of his own weaknesses ("I need to get back to my people."). And how he brought Peaches onto the Rocinante. The writers mentioned how amazing Dominique Tipper was by herself, without anyone to play off of, and they're right. And Holden's absolutely belief in what needs to be done, damn the rest. Plus Drummer, and Avasarala (I'm convinced she's the sole reason for the strong language warning in the beginning of each show), and even Marco. I hadn't thought about Marco, but it's a credit that I never think of the actor when he's on screen. It's just Marco Inaros,  the solar system's biggest a-hole.


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## Zardnaar (Feb 7, 2021)

Nellisir said:


> I thought the finale was fine. They didn't call out the level of misdirection that's going on with Marco and the Martians, but it makes sense to keep Marco as an opponent for some of the last season. Not the strongest season overall, but head and shoulders above almost anything else out there regardless.
> 
> The acting and characters have just been amazing. Like, jaw-droppingly good. Amos, obviously, and his awareness of his own weaknesses ("I need to get back to my people."). And how he brought Peaches onto the Rocinante. The writers mentioned how amazing Dominique Tipper was by herself, without anyone to play off of, and they're right. And Holden's absolutely belief in what needs to be done, damn the rest. Plus Drummer, and Avasarala (I'm convinced she's the sole reason for the strong language warning in the beginning of each show), and even Marco. I hadn't thought about Marco, but it's a credit that I never think of the actor when he's on screen. It's just Marco Inaros,  the solar system's biggest a-hole.





Nellisir said:


> I thought the finale was fine. They didn't call out the level of misdirection that's going on with Marco and the Martians, but it makes sense to keep Marco as an opponent for some of the last season. Not the strongest season overall, but head and shoulders above almost anything else out there regardless.
> 
> The acting and characters have just been amazing. Like, jaw-droppingly good. Amos, obviously, and his awareness of his own weaknesses ("I need to get back to my people."). And how he brought Peaches onto the Rocinante. The writers mentioned how amazing Dominique Tipper was by herself, without anyone to play off of, and they're right. And Holden's absolutely belief in what needs to be done, damn the rest. Plus Drummer, and Avasarala (I'm convinced she's the sole reason for the strong language warning in the beginning of each show), and even Marco. I hadn't thought about Marco, but it's a credit that I never think of the actor when he's on screen. It's just Marco Inaros,  the solar system's biggest a-hole.




 Avasarala more or less the best part of the show. 

 Not a fan of Inaros, means the actors doing his job. 

 Drummer is awesome.


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## Ryujin (Feb 7, 2021)

Zardnaar said:


> Avasarala more or less the best part of the show.
> 
> Not a fan of Inaros, means the actors doing his job.
> 
> Drummer is awesome.



The scenes between Amos and Avasarala, where Amos shows his obvious attraction to that very strong woman, are some of the best in the series for me. Any of the actors who are constantly speaking in Belter Patois aren't getting their due, for just how tough a job they have. Drummer is one of them. It puts me in mind of the scenes in the webseries "JourneyQuest", in which the actors have to carry on whole conversations in the Matt Vancil created version of Orcish.


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## cmad1977 (Feb 8, 2021)

Zardnaar said:


> Avasarala more or less the best part of the show.
> 
> Not a fan of Inaros, means the actors doing his job.
> 
> Drummer is awesome.




Avasarala is strong and her outfits are amazing.


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## Horwath (Feb 10, 2021)

Imaculata said:


> Having now seen the finale, I'm feeling a bit underwhelmed. Without spoiling anything for those that haven't seen it, it feels they skipped over a lot of things in a hurry, that would have been far more interesting to see unfold over the last 3 episodes of the season. Instead they drag Naomi's plot on forever, and it really started to bore me. This whole season was a bit messy, and how they deal with the issues behind the scenes with one of the actors, by changing the plot from the books, feels not entirely right to me.



100% agree.

I just hope Expanse will not get GoT treatment in final season as they wanted to reduce the number of total episodes.

Naomi's "solo session" lasted too looong. Even as a fan of the series, I found myself fast forwarding her plot line even when watching it 1st time.

Nothing was happening at all. I could have been condensed into single episode. It would be more interesting and fast paced.


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## fnordland (Feb 10, 2021)

Horwath said:


> Naomi's "solo session" lasted too looong. Even as a fan of the series, I found myself fast forwarding her plot line even when watching it 1st time.
> 
> Nothing was happening at all. I could have been condensed into single episode. It would be more interesting and fast paced.



I disagree with this sentiment. Naomi's "solo session" connected the interrogation sequence with Lt Lopez & Naomi and the arc of her character. Lopez correctly noted that Naomi is a terrorist with blood on her hands, Lopez is a hero who enables the crew to get to the Rocinante and then turns the ship over to them. Naomi has abandoned a son and was an integral of a terrorist bombing. The death ship of the Chetzemoka is her purgatory, her search for redemption. In the Churn that is history we reflect and re-examine both characters.

'The stars are better off without us'. This season has been about her drive to resolve her past. I welcome it and I think Ms Tipper did a great turn.


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## Mallus (Feb 10, 2021)

fnordland said:


> The death ship of the Chetzemoka is her purgatory, her search for redemption. In the Churn that is history we reflect and re-examine both characters.



One of the best things about season 5 is how we get a much fuller account of both Naomi and Amos's history without ever resorting to flashbacks, outside of Amos's visions of his childhood self, which were still occurring in the present. 

Damn good writing (and acting).


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## Janx (Feb 10, 2021)

fnordland said:


> I disagree with this sentiment. Naomi's "solo session" connected the interrogation sequence with Lt Lopez & Naomi and the arc of her character. Lopez correctly noted that Naomi is a terrorist with blood on her hands, Lopez is a hero who enables the crew to get to the Rocinante and then turns the ship over to them. Naomi has abandoned a son and was an integral of a terrorist bombing. The death ship of the Chetzemoka is her purgatory, her search for redemption. In the Churn that is history we reflect and re-examine both characters.
> 
> 'The stars are better off without us'. This season has been about her drive to resolve her past. I welcome it and I think Ms Tipper did a great turn.



yes, but visually it sucked.

For an audience or reader, you can get away with 3 repetitions before it gets repetitive. Especially if there's not much variance.  All we saw was Naomi suit up, waddle down a hall, come back and cry.  We had little context into what she was doing.  So while technically, she'd do something different every so often, we didn't really know what it was.  The most obvious thing was when she changed the message.

It ended up being Naomi does much of the same thing over three or four episodes with no progress.  Not normally good storytelling.  The opposite actually.

So while you are spot on what it meant. Doesn't mean it was all that great to watch.


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## Bagpuss (Feb 10, 2021)

Janx said:


> So while you are spot on what it meant. Doesn't mean it was all that great to watch.




Probably works better in a book where you can show what the character is thinking easier.


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