# Rogue + Warlock + Assassin using multiclass and hybrid equals "win"



## WalterKovacs (Mar 16, 2010)

A friend of mine was interested in finding out how a rogue/warlock could, through either hybrid or multiclassing benefit both from shadow walk and the new MP2 Rogue class feature to be able to constantly hide in plain sight. It was already possible, but both involved using up the paragon path to either paragon multiclass as a warlock to get Shadow Walk via a feat, or to paragon hybrid so that both class features could be taken by feats.

With the new assassin article however, a heroic tier it's possible to get Shadow Walk with a single feat (although you need to be both a warlock and an assassin). This means a hybrid rogue + either warlock or assassin and multiclass into the third can constantly hide (by moving three squares) as early as 4th level (2nd level for a human).

Not saying it's broken (it was already possible in paragon tier, but now it's easier to pull off earlier, plus you don't have to give up a paragon path) but wasn't sure if WOTC knew about that particular trick at the time. For a 'normal' assassin, it's a great feature that makes sense for them to have ... but throwing the rogue's new class feature into the mix makes it quite nasty.


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## FreeXenon (Mar 16, 2010)

*No Warlock or Gnome love!?!?!?*

Great to finally see hybrid rules for Assassin, but I am very disappointed to not see any loving for Gnomish Feylock/Assassins of Zilargo! 

Come one people, that idea totally rocks!


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## RigaMortus2 (Mar 16, 2010)

WalterKovacs said:


> Not saying it's broken (it was already possible in paragon tier, but now it's easier to pull off earlier, *plus you don't have to give up a paragon path*) but wasn't sure if WOTC knew about that particular trick at the time. For a 'normal' assassin, it's a great feature that makes sense for them to have ... but throwing the rogue's new class feature into the mix makes it quite nasty.




If you go Hybrid Rogue/Warlock then paragon multiclass into Assassin, then you can't get a paragon path.  Paragon multiclassing overrides that...

Unless you can pull this trick off with the simple multiclass feat for the assassin (or warlock, as it were)???


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## WalterKovacs (Mar 16, 2010)

RigaMortus2 said:


> If you go Hybrid Rogue/Warlock then paragon multiclass into Assassin, then you can't get a paragon path. Paragon multiclassing overrides that...
> 
> Unless you can pull this trick off with the simple multiclass feat for the assassin (or warlock, as it were)???




Yup. It's a heroic tier feat that only requires having both the assassin and warlock classes, which can be acheived by a single multiclass feat. Meaning a three feat requirement (hybrid for the rogue feature, the multiclass feat, then the feat to get shadow walking).


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## Mr. Teapot (Mar 17, 2010)

FreeXenon said:


> Great to finally see hybrid rules for Assassin, but I am very disappointed to not see any loving for Gnomish Feylock/Assassins of Zilargo!
> 
> Come one people, that idea totally rocks!




You mean loving, like in the form of the awesome combo that this thread is about?  Gnome warlock/assassin/rogues can be unseen for entire combats now.


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## Rikun (Mar 20, 2010)

Can you please tell me the name of the feat that requires having both assasin and warlock to get shadow walk?


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## bganon (Mar 20, 2010)

I dunno, Cunning Sneak rogues already typically take deft strike and gloaming cut as at-wills, and with shadow strike and twilight menace as their enc/daily they already have the chance to stay hidden for much of an entire encounter if there's even a single square that offers concealment.

So, yeah, the Cunning Sneak + Shadow Walk combo is very nice - but the cost is three feats and being a multi-classed hybrid!  And what you get isn't really that far beyond what a vanilla Cunning Sneak rogue is capable of right out of the box, especially if you've got a controller in the party who can drop LOS blockers, or a Battlemind with Mind Snare, etc...  And the single-classed Rogue doesn't have the hybrid restrictions on SA to worry about, and can use those three feats for damage stacking.

It's a cool combo, but I'm always a little wary of "island" builds that focus on getting something neat without external help.  Most people play D&D with other people...


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## FreeXenon (Mar 21, 2010)

*Invisible is a Great Defense and Offense*



Mr. Teapot said:


> You mean loving, like in the form of the awesome combo that this thread is about?  Gnome warlock/assassin/rogues can be unseen for entire combats now.




Well, yes, that's totally true, but that is a great offensive and defensive tactic. It is hard for 'dead things walking' to fight back against an assailant they can't see, especially when it is a GNOME! =)


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## Dice4Hire (Mar 21, 2010)

Is it just me or has the whole stealth thing gone too far? 

Viable tactic is good, but and effective +5 to ll defenses and no OAs is a bit much.

Luckily my players see it all as incredibly cheesy and unfun so we just ignore the whole hiding in combat thing. Of course YMMV


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## jbear (Mar 21, 2010)

Just having a look at a Human RogueAssassin Hybrid multiclassing into Warlock to achieve the afore mentioned combo. It looks far better than a pure Assassin from where I'm standing. 7 trained Skills at level 1. Hybrid Assassin's shrouds combine with Rogue Comabat Advantage damage maxing at 4d6 every 2 rounds (1d6 on a miss). Assassins At Wills are very meh anyway, so let's say assassin's noose which is nice with the pull effect and then 2 Rogue At Wills, Deft Strike being an obvious choice to remain at range. AC should be decent with the Shadow Walk (achieved at 1st level by taking the 2 feats) and picking up the Assassin's shadow step Hybrid Talent to teleport 3 squares from person to person as an At Will move (enough to trigger Shadow Step and gain concealment.... not shabby at all. I'd much rather play that than a pure assassin, personally.


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## Diggity Dave (Mar 22, 2010)

So assuming you go with this hybrid/MC combo, what Paragon path would be best?


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## Rachel (Mar 22, 2010)

Dice4Hire said:


> Is it just me or has the whole stealth thing gone too far?
> 
> Viable tactic is good, but and effective +5 to ll defenses and no OAs is a bit much.
> 
> Luckily my players see it all as incredibly cheesy and unfun so we just ignore the whole hiding in combat thing. Of course YMMV




Think I'm with you on this. 

@Diggity Dave and Rikun: welcome to the forums, glad to have you.


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## Ajar (Mar 22, 2010)

WalterKovacs said:


> A friend of mine was interested in finding out how a rogue/warlock could, through either hybrid or multiclassing benefit both from shadow walk and the new MP2 Rogue class feature to be able to constantly hide in plain sight. It was already possible, but both involved using up the paragon path to either paragon multiclass as a warlock to get Shadow Walk via a feat, or to paragon hybrid so that both class features could be taken by feats.



Fleeting Ghost arguably allows a Rogue|Warlock hybrid with Shadow Walk (via Hybrid Talent) to do this at will at level 2. It isn't clear-cut, so it's the DM's call as to whether this works; my DM allowed it, and I'm playing one. 

The reasoning is that Fleeting Ghost explicitly grants you a stealth check regardless of whether you meet the conditions for becoming hidden. Normally you'd immediately lose the hidden status on account of not having cover or concealment, but a character with Shadow Walk doesn't have that problem. 

Also, I'm not sure that hybrids can paragon multiclass. Try doing it in the Character Builder -- it doesn't let you take the power-swap feats in time, because you have to have three powers of the type in question at the time you take the power-swap feat. 

I actually multiclassed my tiefling Rogue|Warlock into Assassin, but I did it to get Shadow Step. What can I say, the character has an eladrin inferiority complex.  I wanted to take power-swap feats as early as possible, but I don't see a way to take even the encounter one before level 8, since I get my third encounter attack power at level 7. 

I would probably have made an Assassin or hybrid Assassin if we hadn't already been playing a long time when the Assassin class was released. The hybrid Rogue|Warlock was my pre-Assassin effort to build a sneaky guy who teleports a lot. It's a lot of fun to play, though, even in a fight -- he's mainly a melee attacker, but he's really squishy, so each turn is a balance between the risk of getting pummeled and the chance of dealing lots of damage with a Rogue power. I think a ranged version would be vicious, but it would also be a lot less fun for me -- I like the risk vs reward game.


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## WalterKovacs (Mar 22, 2010)

Ajar said:


> Also, I'm not sure that hybrids can paragon multiclass. Try doing it in the Character Builder -- it doesn't let you take the power-swap feats in time, because you have to have three powers of the type in question at the time you take the power-swap feat.




The situation would have involved a straight Rogue paragon multiclassing as a warlock to get Shadow Walk as a feat OR a Rogue/Warlock using the hybrid paragon path to get a hybrid talent a second time.

Also, it is possible to paragon multiclass with a hybrid character, as you can take the feats at the minimum level (even if you can't use it immediately to retrain). And, with retraining, you can take the feats when you first get your chance to use them (retraining into Novice at 7, retraining into the Acolyte at 10 while also taking Adept at level 10. Only a human would be able to benefit from the at-will power swap granted by the paragon multiclassing though.


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## Neonchameleon (Mar 22, 2010)

Warlock + Assassin multiclasses?

Two things spring to mind.

1: Windrise Ports *groan*
2: Bards.  You can even get a feystepper quite easily here.


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## Ajar (Mar 22, 2010)

Ah! Retrains! Of course.


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## Ironnipple (Sep 27, 2017)

Where can you find the assassin multi class feat?
I was looking into doing this with my hero, but can't find what book/magazine it is in. Although I think I found the name of it, shadow initiate.


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## MwaO (Sep 29, 2017)

Ironnipple said:


> Where can you find the assassin multi class feat?
> I was looking into doing this with my hero, but can't find what book/magazine it is in. Although I think I found the name of it, shadow initiate.




Shadow Initiate or Practiced Killer are multiclass feats into Assassin.

Just be warned, this is known as Permastealth and is generally a net-negative choice, not a positive one. Mainly because one of two things happen:
The DM plays unfair because they don't like it and make up things designed to negate the ability.
The DM plays fair, ignores the Permastealth PC, and focus fires on targetable PCs. i.e. net outcome is that the other PCs take more damage due to the Permastealth PC and the Permastealth PC doesn't do as much damage as a regular member of any of the classes. Upping the chance of a TPK is not a good move...


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## Ironnipple (Sep 29, 2017)

Why is it considered permastealth? Just because of all the invisibility traits and stuff in the assassin class?

And to be honest I don't think that's going to change drastically to how our encounters generally go anyway.

(After reading some guides online I realize I and probably going to get a lot of people bashing my character right now, but....)

I am playing a drow seeker, and I want to multi class into assassin, simply for the venom hand master skill. I already have a handful of poison attacks, and the skulker of vhaeran theme, so it seems to me that it's a good way to ensure some control with those attacks.

But that being said, I don't think having my teammates attacked more often will be a big deal because I am already typically in the back with my bow.


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## Ironnipple (Sep 29, 2017)

Oh and maybe I should mention before you completely bash my build and tell me how many levels of wrong I am, this is my first ever D&D character, so I'm kind of learning as I go.


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## MwaO (Sep 29, 2017)

Ironnipple said:


> Why is it considered permastealth?




This thread is talking about spending feats to essentially get total concealment at-will. That's bad.
You are talking about spending feats to ensure your effects can't get negated. You can't multi-class that number of times to get the option above, so you can't do it. That's good.

In general, it is a good idea to not hang back. It essentially gives the option above - either the DM tries to pick on you or the DM ignores you. Just with a little more clarity - ideally, you move in and out as necessary - giving your Defender a flank as an example and provoking an OA so as to trigger his mark punishment once a combat, then next round, shift away and shoot.


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## Ironnipple (Sep 29, 2017)

I see what you're saying, I guess that flows pretty well with my paragon path also. I took the moonrise stalker one, which is all about teleportation and such.

That's a good tip, thank you.


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