# Help! My newbie DM just bought a Spindown d20!



## doctorhook (Mar 23, 2009)

I just joined a group a new group as a player. The DM is a friend of mine, but this will be the first campaign he's ever DMed. Recently, he bought a "spindown" d20, which he plans to use for rolling monster attacks.

I'm a little worried. I've heard that these "spindown-style" d20s (where the high numbers all cluster around the 20, and the low numbers all cluster around the 1) are considered illegal in M:tG and DDM tournaments, because they consistently roll above average.

Is this true? Has anyone got any good reasons I should offer my DM to convince him not to use it?


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## Peter Lee (Mar 23, 2009)

They don't necessarily roll higher than average, but it is easier to cheat with them.  It's possible to roll such a die in a style to favor one side: the side with 11-20, typically.  This is a bad thing in a tournament setting, but it probably won't be a problem for your home game.


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## Festivus (Mar 23, 2009)

Get a dice cup and don't worry about it. I don't like spindowns either, and I have asked players at (public) events not to use them because you can roll them in such a way to favor the high numbers. Particularly the oversize d20 spindowns, those are really easy to be sure you at least get a 10 on the die.

We don't have any in use at my homegames unless I am using one as a countdown die.


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## pawsplay (Mar 23, 2009)

There is virtually no problem with dice cheating that cannot be solved by dice cup or throwing "craps" style against a wall.


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## doctorhook (Mar 24, 2009)

Very interesting, guys. I feel a lot better informed now, and I am not worried anymore. Thanks!


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## RefinedBean (Mar 24, 2009)

Is it too late for me to throw out the opinion that those oversized clunky dice should be rounded up and melted?  I effing hate those things.


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## JoeGKushner (Mar 24, 2009)

Uh, what type of dice are these? Big foam ones or something?


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## RefinedBean (Mar 24, 2009)

JoeGKushner said:


> Uh, what type of dice are these? Big foam ones or something?




The ones that are about 3-4 times the size of a normal d20, hardly ROLL they're so heavy, and make an obnoxious noise when rolled.  One guy had one so heavy it rocked the table a wee bit (was a cheap-o card table).

I should probably be more quiet with my pet peeves, but I don't care anymore.  I.  Hate.  Those.  Dice.


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## doctorhook (Mar 24, 2009)

JoeGKushner said:


> Uh, what type of dice are these? Big foam ones or something?



Bean is just talking about how he hates oversized d20s.

"Spindown" d20s are a style of d20 where, if you look directly at the "20" face, all you can see are numbers 11 or higher. (As in, all of the high numbers on a "*spindown*" are on one side of the dice, and the low numbers are on the other.) Compare this to a "normal" d20, where, if you look directly at the "20" side, you can see even numbers ranging from 2 to 20. (As in, on a normal d20 all the even numbers are on one side of the dice, and all the odd numbers are on the opposite side.)

"Spindown" dice are known as "spindown" because of the way the numbers are laid out on the dice; the 20 is adjacent to the 19, which is adjacent to the 18, which is adjacent to the 17, and so on, in a pattern which appears to spiral or "spin down" around the dice from 20 to 1. A *normal* doesn't do that.

As other posters have pointed out, spindown d20s are generally looked down upon, on the basis that they are easy to cheat with.


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## DogBackward (Mar 24, 2009)

For the record _(for those who don't know)_, they were created for certain games _(like M:tG)_ where you need to keep track of a number, like a Life Total. You can start it on the "20", and since the numbers spin around and downwards, it's easy to just spin down a few numbers if you take a few points of damage. They're great if you're playing Magic.

Honestly, though, if your players or DM are going to use a spindown die to cheat, they're gonna find another way to cheat anyway. If you're worried about him cheating, you're not gonna stop him; since he's the DM, he can just fudge his rolls anyway. If you're worried about the die naturally rolling higher; don't. You have to roll it a certain way to do that.

But yeah, if you're worried _(as a DM or fellow player)_ about a player cheating, banning spindown dice isn't going to help. If they're willing to cheat that way, they'll just find another way. You need to find a way to fix the players themselves.


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## nicholasgeorg (Mar 26, 2009)

RefinedBean said:


> The ones that are about 3-4 times the size of a normal d20, hardly ROLL they're so heavy, and make an obnoxious noise when rolled.  One guy had one so heavy it rocked the table a wee bit (was a cheap-o card table).
> 
> I should probably be more quiet with my pet peeves, but I don't care anymore.  I.  Hate.  Those.  Dice.




I can't imagine how much I'd hate someone using them all the time, but I (the DM) use one for mystery checks (like wandering monsters, random effects, enemy perception, etc).  My players quake in horror when that monster die shakes the table.  I love it.

But that's seriously the only thing I use it for.


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## cignus_pfaccari (Mar 26, 2009)

DogBackward said:


> For the record _(for those who don't know)_, they were created for certain games _(like M:tG)_ where you need to keep track of a number, like a Life Total. You can start it on the "20", and since the numbers spin around and downwards, it's easy to just spin down a few numbers if you take a few points of damage. They're great if you're playing Magic.




See, I just used two d6s.

Maybe three if my Triple Mana Flare Drain Power Stream of Life actually succeeded and I had to go over 42.  But Drain Power almost never came up, I only had the one.  

Brad


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## DogBackward (Mar 26, 2009)

Actually, I usually use percentile dice. But a lot of people use spindowns for life counters, and that's what they were created for.


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## Hand of Evil (Mar 26, 2009)

If the DM uses them, then the players can use them.  I hate them and somewhere there is a break down on the mathematics behind them and shows that their average role is higher, something to do with rolling on the low side or the low and then the breakdown of the number, basicly you are no longer rolling a d20 with a 1 in 20 but a 1 in 10 on a high or low dice.


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## pawsplay (Mar 27, 2009)

How to cheat at dice - RPG Talk


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## Jeffrey Kesselman (Feb 20, 2018)

It doesn't even have to be conscious cheating.

The normal approximately gaussian distribution of values on a die help minimize the impact of less then perfect weight.

A spin down die is much more likely to roll unfairly,


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## doctorhook (Feb 20, 2018)

Jeffrey Kesselman said:


> It doesn't even have to be conscious cheating.
> 
> The normal approximately gaussian distribution of values on a die help minimize the impact of less then perfect weight.
> 
> A spin down die is much more likely to roll unfairly,



I appreciate your post on the subject!

Side question: How many 5000gp diamonds did you have to expend to cast this Thread Resurrection spell?


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