# What We Know About SWORD COAST LEGENDS DM Tools



## Sword of Spirit (Jun 18, 2015)

"... it was built to prevent DM’s from cheesing the system and making things overly unfair on players. DM’s have a pool of expendable points used whenever they place enemies or traps or increase enemy levels. Once they run out of points, they can’t get them back until players defeat enemies or, DM’s remove enemies or lower their levels."

In other words, you can't be an actual DM. You can just be a Dungeon Keeper.


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## Leatherhead (Jun 18, 2015)

Sword of Spirit said:


> In other words, you can't be an actual DM. You can just be a Dungeon Keeper.




You can't be an actual DM if you don't have any characters to run around in your dungeon either 

It's a video game, the fact that you don't have total control of the entire game universe on the fly is a to be a given, we simply don't have computers or programs that can handle such things. This threat mechanic is actually one of the more interesting ideas I have seen as of late. It's obviously designed with the "New DM" in mind, and should actually allow for more people to ease into the otherwise intimidating DM mantle.

And incidentally the protagonist of Dungeon Keeper has far less power than that, especially if you go by the mobile reboot.


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## Sword of Spirit (Jun 18, 2015)

The point is that it looks like it is not, in fact, anything like the Neverwinter Nights toolkit and DM client. While most people (including myself) would find it too much work to do, you could pretty much create your own worlds and run something pretty close to emulating a TTRP experience.

I guess it just bugs me that they are co-opting the term "DM" and presumably trying to market it as something else to people that don't actually know what it means.

If the point is that you can have one player who plays as the adversary in a fair fight against the other players--then just say that. Don't confuse people who are unfamiliar with the role of a DM, by making that their first exposure to the idea. And don't try to market it to people who are already familiar with how the term is used in D&D when you are using the term differently.

Quite frankly, I think its (probably unintentionally) misleading and a bad idea.


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## dwayne (Jun 18, 2015)

I can see the logic behind giving a set of perimeters to help GM's who do not know how or understand the balance of a good adventure. This may also help new GM's in setting up and running games and to know what to do an what not to do. But as with all computer game's there are some limitations and until this has been able to be put through it's paces and we as players and GM's use it I will reserve my judgement until then.


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## estar (Jun 18, 2015)

I am wondering if this in some type of "shared" setting. I.E.

a) you have a on-line character.
b) you obtain a list of available adventures
c) you go on the adventure with friends or random group of players
d) the adventure rewards stay with your on-line character.

In this case it sounds similar to a National LARP system like NERO or Amtgard where they have guidelines for the individual chapters to prevent a rogue chapter from handing out too much.

If their goal is to allow any character to play any adventure then the restriction make sense. If it is a private campaigns like it was with Neverwinter Nights from Bioware then they are acting too much like a nanny.

In any case this is not going to be some miracle substitute for the home campaign. You are far better off using Roll20 or Fantasy Grounds if what you want to do is to play tabletop on the internet.


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## TarionzCousin (Jun 18, 2015)

> You can control enemies, NPCs, traps, and add dialogue and quests.



If I can add dialogue before the players start the game, that will be glorious. 

Imagine having [-]subtle[/-] Monty Python references throughout, or your own group's in-jokes. I hope this happens.


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## Mistwell (Jun 18, 2015)

Sword of Spirit said:


> "... it was built to prevent DM’s from cheesing the system and making things overly unfair on players. DM’s have a pool of expendable points used whenever they place enemies or traps or increase enemy levels. Once they run out of points, they can’t get them back until players defeat enemies or, DM’s remove enemies or lower their levels."
> 
> In other words, you can't be an actual DM. You can just be a Dungeon Keeper.




If they included an option for games (that had a warning listed for players to see) that lifted the points cap, would this address your issue?


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## Morrus (Jun 18, 2015)

Mistwell said:


> If they included an option for games (that had a warning listed for players to see) that lifted the points cap, would this address your issue?




I'd be amazed it if hasn't.


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## ThirdWizard (Jun 18, 2015)

Leatherhead said:


> It's a video game, the fact that you don't have total control of the entire game universe on the fly is a to be a given, we simply don't have computers or programs that can handle such things.




It seems to have less capability than Neverwinter Nights did back over a decade ago, though. In NWN, you were able to modify and drop monsters, take over NPCs/monsters and control them in game.

You could also create maps, create items, import assets for use, and modify all kinds of aspects of the game. You felt like a DM. This seems to be a step back from NWN, which is kind of sad for people who were hopeful that it would fill that niche.

So far it appears to be a slightly upgraded Baldur's Gate instead. And, that's great for single player, and probably worth it for that alone. But, there is that twinge of disappointment.


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## Beleriphon (Jun 18, 2015)

ThirdWizard said:


> It seems to have less capability than Neverwinter Nights did back over a decade ago, though. In NWN, you were able to modify and drop monsters, take over NPCs/monsters and control them in game.
> 
> You could also create maps, create items, import assets for use, and modify all kinds of aspects of the game. You felt like a DM. This seems to be a step back from NWN, which is kind of sad for people who were hopeful that it would fill that niche.
> 
> So far it appears to be a slightly upgraded Baldur's Gate instead. And, that's great for single player, and probably worth it for that alone. But, there is that twinge of disappointment.




Perhaps, but keep in mind that NWN was ultimately best of building modules for single play. Online stuff was brutal to try and run as a DM, to no small part because it was monstrously time consuming and quite frankly really hard to do. I've had the game since launch in one form or another and I've never, ever, managed to figure out the damnable campaign tools. If Sword Coast Legends gives me the option to be up and running 20 minutes I'm sold.


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## DMCF (Jun 18, 2015)

Beleriphon said:


> Perhaps, but keep in mind that NWN was ultimately best of building modules for single play. Online stuff was brutal to try and run as a DM, to no small part because it was monstrously time consuming and quite frankly really hard to do. I've had the game since launch in one form or another and I've never, ever, managed to figure out the damnable campaign tools. If Sword Coast Legends gives me the option to be up and running 20 minutes I'm sold.




I think you touched on what most people playing PnP want from D&D. We want to be able to be up and running in 20 minutes but to truly explore our creative side we need to be able to have the option for full control _and_ randomization. 

Taking from the quote about "rebuilding your favorite adventure", applying it to my current Princes of the Apocalypse campaign and applying it to my wishes for WoTC electronic content:

I would like to fully recreate Red Larch. The campaign offers a lot of detail. Womford on the other hand, can be pre-generated. Random encounters can be just that -random, but planned encounters fully detailed. 

The campaign also puts monsters in certain places i.e., griffons, but as DM in game we are probably not allowed to add the griffons if they exceed some kind of character balance threshold. 

On my roll 20 games I use dungeon generators for places for lots of quests, but the main story arcs will use very nice maps with pictures and all sorts of details. $99 a year (not counting token packs) and despite the graphical draw backs I'm going to take that over SCL again and again.


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## TheSwartz (Jun 19, 2015)

From the PC Gamer E3 Review:



> the dev DM ticked a few boxes in an intimidatingly deep menu


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## Shadimar (Jun 19, 2015)

Interesting article from Gameinformer - http://www.gameinformer.com/games/s...al&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

"While the game has other aspects to it, this "build a campaign" feature feels like the next evolution of Dungeons & Dragons. Forget hours of setup and boxes full of pieces – everything you could ever want to play with is available here. I can definitely see this being used to host D&D games, especially for playgroups that may have become separated over the years as people move from place to place; all you have to do is log on voice chat and boom, you may as well be in the DM's living room."

Sounds promising to me that we'll be able to build custom maps.    But with info coming out as a trickle, just wish they'd clear the air.


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## Uchawi (Jun 19, 2015)

Leatherhead said:


> You can't be an actual DM if you don't have any characters to run around in your dungeon either
> 
> It's a video game, the fact that you don't have total control of the entire game universe on the fly is a to be a given, we simply don't have computers or programs that can handle such things. This threat mechanic is actually one of the more interesting ideas I have seen as of late. It's obviously designed with the "New DM" in mind, and should actually allow for more people to ease into the otherwise intimidating DM mantle.
> 
> And incidentally the protagonist of Dungeon Keeper has far less power than that, especially if you go by the mobile reboot.



I would prefer they implement a warning that the DM has exceeded the point threshold by whatever margin then let the decision reside with the players.


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## Shasarak (Jun 19, 2015)

I am glad that they limit the DM with the amount of "points" that he gets.

I do not think I could handle the power of being able to create whatever I wanted!


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## EthanSental (Jun 19, 2015)

Shadimar said:


> Interesting article from Gameinformer - http://www.gameinformer.com/games/s...al&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
> 
> "While the game has other aspects to it, this "build a campaign" feature feels like the next evolution of Dungeons & Dragons. Forget hours of setup and boxes full of pieces – everything you could ever want to play with is available here. I can definitely see this being used to host D&D games, especially for playgroups that may have become separated over the years as people move from place to place; all you have to do is log on voice chat and boom, you may as well be in the DM's living room."
> 
> Sounds promising to me that we'll be able to build custom maps.    But with info coming out as a trickle, just wish they'd clear the air.




In the interview, Dan said he and the design team picked their favorite campaign and recreate it with our tools......this has me looking forward to it even more just to try it out and see if I can with mine for my old group.  Intrigued by the possibility of it for sure!


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## Sword of Spirit (Jun 19, 2015)

Mistwell said:


> If they included an option for games (that had a warning listed for players to see) that lifted the points cap, would this address your issue?




This would address the issue of whether or not I would be interested in the product.

It would not, however, address the issue of unfortunate first exposure to D&D. Just like the old D&D CRPGs of yore, this is likely going to be many people's first exposure to D&D, and will contribute to their expectations of what D&D is all about.

I don't like the idea of new players coming to the TTRPG with the impression that the role of the DM is to be a *fair adversary*. While *fair* is something most players and DMs would consider a goal, *adversary* is not.

So we are going to have people coming to the PnP game thinking that D&D is PvDM.


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## Mistwell (Jun 19, 2015)

Sword of Spirit said:


> This would address the issue of whether or not I would be interested in the product.
> 
> It would not, however, address the issue of unfortunate first exposure to D&D. Just like the old D&D CRPGs of yore, this is likely going to be many people's first exposure to D&D, and will contribute to their expectations of what D&D is all about.
> 
> ...




Eh, for some it is. I've had a DM who played it that way, and he's an excellent DM. It's not my style, but it's a style that can work at least.


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## Jhaelen (Jun 19, 2015)

Morrus said:


> I'd be amazed it if hasn't.



I wish I was that optimistic 
But, yeah, there needs to be an option to turn that off. Otherwise you get something like the 'Descent' boardgame.


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## Beleriphon (Jun 19, 2015)

Joseph Morrison said:


> I think you touched on what most people playing PnP want from D&D. We want to be able to be up and running in 20 minutes but to truly explore our creative side we need to be able to have the option for full control _and_ randomization.
> 
> Taking from the quote about "rebuilding your favorite adventure", applying it to my current Princes of the Apocalypse campaign and applying it to my wishes for WoTC electronic content:
> 
> ...




I that's probably the divide. Even if one has full customization the SCL is still a video game. The points total thing is about asymetrical mutliplayer game play experience, where the player taking the DM position is meant to not use the tools and just slaughter the players with actual characters. I imagine that this more derived from the random dungeon delving aspect but again, even if it isn't I don't think SCL is wrong for including the points total in any other function of the game.

SCL isn't trying to replace something like Roll 20. What it is trying to do is emulate the experience of having a DM in a multiplayer video game. Something is there to control certain aspects of the game. As it stands as well, from I've read, there are DM Rankings (essentially a leader board), as well as player leader Boards. One way to allow the DM Leader Board to work is have an arbitrary limit on what the DM player can do. Effectively it works on the idea that the DM that uses the points budget but has the players still survive is better than the guy that uses the points budget and just kills them.


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## Sword of Spirit (Jun 19, 2015)

Well if there are rankings and people are just selecting DMs they don't from a menu, it seems like DMs are primarily serving as substitutes for AI opponents. A way to make the game more challenging.

I can't see this having a positive impact on the hobby.


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## R_Chance (Jun 20, 2015)

The point system isn't a lot different from challenge ratings. You have a "budget" to present a challenge to the PCs. You can adjust on the fly to keep it challenging, presumably without making it "killer" although DMs will differ on that I'm sure. There is an element of competition for those who are so inclined but it's just as easy to see the point system as a balance mechanism to keep it fun but challenging.


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## mach1.9pants (Jun 20, 2015)

http://nzgamer.com/previews/1249/sword-coast-legends-hands-on.html

Just another little preview, doesn;t say much (if anything) new, but from a DnD playing Video Gamer in NZ (like me!)


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## Rune (Jun 20, 2015)

The claim to be able to recreate any campaign and the inherent limitation of the DM's difficulty budget would seem to be contradictory. 

I mean, how would you even do the original Tomb of Horrors with such a budget? And if that was within it's scope, would such a budget have any meaningful impact on any adventure, at all?


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## Psikerlord# (Jun 20, 2015)

Sword of Spirit said:


> "... it was built to prevent DM’s from cheesing the system and making things overly unfair on players. DM’s have a pool of expendable points used whenever they place enemies or traps or increase enemy levels. Once they run out of points, they can’t get them back until players defeat enemies or, DM’s remove enemies or lower their levels."
> 
> In other words, you can't be an actual DM. You can just be a Dungeon Keeper.




Yeah, junk. What I want is something like Roll20, able to move icons around, use their maps, add a dice roller and a way to show pictures. And that would be perfect. I dont need the rest of the game mechanics etc. 

Wouldnt that be an easy thing for them to add on, given everything they've made so far. I'd buy it just for that. But I wont buy it for what it is now.


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## Dannager (Jun 21, 2015)

Sword of Spirit said:


> I don't like the idea of new players coming to the TTRPG with the impression that the role of the DM is to be a *fair adversary*. While *fair* is something most players and DMs would consider a goal, *adversary* is not.




I think a quasi-adversarial nature to the DM-player relationship is ideal, actually. Obviously the DM doesn't want to punish the PCs so badly that the campaign falls apart (party wipe, player dissatisfaction, etc.) but the game does play best when the players (and their characters) are consistently _challenged_. I've found the most enjoyable games are ones where the DM is able to _fake_ a believable (or, at least, believable with reasonable suspension of disbelief) adversarial relationship. Feeling like you're playing _against_ someone tickles the competitive part of the brain, and a little bit of that goes a long way towards heightening the experience. If the DM can convince the players that they're squaring off _against the DM *and winning*_, the experience takes on a new level of satisfaction.


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## Dannager (Jun 21, 2015)

Psikerlord# said:


> Wouldnt that be an easy thing for them to add on, given everything they've made so far.




Rule #820 of Software Development: "Couldn't you just add these features in real quick? It looks like you've already laid most of the groundwork!" makes developers sad.


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## IgnatiusJ.Reilly (Jun 23, 2015)

After reading all the E3 previews, it seems evident that one can't make their own maps or creatures and import them into the game. One could take the areas shipped with the game and add placeables, monsters and NPCs, triggers for encounters, and change day/night and weather effects. Not exactly the creative freedom a builder from the NWN era would be pleased with.


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## davout1805 (Jun 27, 2015)

Dannager said:


> Rule #820 of Software Development: "Couldn't you just add these features in real quick? It looks like you've already laid most of the groundwork!" makes developers sad.




It makes developers' heads explode!


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## Burticusb (Jul 6, 2015)

First off, I know it doesn't have the freedom of say NWN, but they did a pretty awesome job if you ask me for a price tag of $35... 
And hopefully we will eventually get a full robust builder, they did say that it is the number one request. And they will continue to support the game as long as there is interest. I just can't see them not adding in this feature, and so I will be hopeful and in good faith support them. They are a small developer right now, but this could be the beginnings of the next Bioware...
Also, to build the Tomb of Horros, you'd just have to build it ahead of time, there is no Threat Gage present when you build the adventure, jut when you are actively DM'ing...


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