# GAME OF THRONES SEASON 8--Final Run-- Part 5



## Truth Seeker (May 12, 2019)

*THE BELLS*​*
With two dragons dead and many of Daenerys's closest allies slain, the Mother of Dragons holds a tenuous alliance with the Starks and even her own advisers. Meanwhile, Cersei commands powerful defenses in King's Landing. 


*
<strike></strike>
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## Aeson (May 13, 2019)

Madness runs in the family.


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## hawkeyefan (May 13, 2019)

Yeah, quite a turn this late in. Pretty crazy.


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## variant (May 13, 2019)

Many book readers have been expecting this day to come and telling people that this would happen.


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## Gladius Legis (May 13, 2019)

Worst. Episode. Of. Television. Ever.

That is all.


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## Aeson (May 13, 2019)

Gladius Legis said:


> Worst. Episode. Of. Television. Ever.
> 
> That is all.




Not possible with the likes of Arrested Development,  The Office, and Bob's Burgers around.


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## Gladius Legis (May 13, 2019)

variant said:


> Many book readers have been expecting this day to come and telling people that this would happen.




The actual thing? Sure, there's hints it could happen.

The _how_ and the _why_ the thing happened? I doubt GRRM sets it up anywhere near as clumsily or stupidly.


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## Maxperson (May 13, 2019)

Gladius Legis said:


> Worst. Episode. Of. Television. Ever.
> 
> That is all.




Not even close.  The ends of Dexter and How I Met Your Mother were much worse.


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## Zardnaar (May 13, 2019)

This episode triggered my wife lol. Just to much stupid.


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## Sadras (May 13, 2019)

Not even nudity could have saved this season.


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## jonesy (May 13, 2019)

It feels like there's 5 episodes of plot development missing from in between episodes three and five.

Did I really just see northmen killing unarmed soldiers and civilians just because Grey Worm went crazy? Like, were those former Bolton men, or what? Jon was right there and they just go in and slaughter people without even waiting for his command? What?


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## Joker (May 13, 2019)

jonesy said:


> It feels like there's 5 episodes of plot development missing from in between episodes three and five.
> 
> Did I really just see northmen killing unarmed soldiers and civilians just because Grey Worm went crazy? Like, were those former Bolton men, or what? Jon was right there and they just go in and slaughter people without even waiting for his command? What?




Mob mentality is a powerful thing. Mob mentality after surviving the dead when half your friends and family didn't and after the people of King's Landing were sitting all warm and cozy is undoubtedly more powerful.
It's not like the Northmen have Unsullied-like discipline. A lot of them are probably still sore about Jon bending the knew to Dani and don't really give a rats proverbial about his honor.

No, that didn't bother me. It bothered in terms of the horror they were committing but I believed it.

I went into this episode with zero expectations after the last couple and in a way it allowed me to enjoy parts of this one that I wouldn't have if I had a more pessimistic mindset, as I did in the previous ones.
I really liked the visual of the whole spectacle. The raw power of the dragon tearing everything up (where is he getting all this fuel?). The sadness of the whole thing and how it could have been avoided.
The loss of such a tragic character as Sandor and his parting with one of the few people he cared about. 
I even felt emotion at when Cercei and Jaime met and finally died. 
And Varys too. This whole episode has been grand loss of tragic characters, not least of which Dani's hope of becoming a just ruler. If only she burned down the Red Keep when she first landed in Westeros. One dragon could just melt that and the Iron Throne and she would have broken the wheel like she promised.
Instead she got bad advice and no advice from Tyron and Varys respectively, causing massive losses, and people are surprised the coin landed on the wrong side.


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## Morrus (May 13, 2019)

variant said:


> Many book readers have been expecting this day to come and telling people that this would happen.




Many TV watchers, too. Dany has been becoming more despotic for years. She does not brook disagreement.


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## Morrus (May 13, 2019)

So it turns out that it just takes one dragon to win everything. Dany could have flown to Westeros at any time in the last few years with just one of her three dragons and burned Kings Landing to the ground, and anywhere else she wanted to.

All that political chess, all those armies, the Dothraki, the North, the Unsullied, none of it mattered in the end. Just one dragon beats everything. It’s a nuclear weapon.


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## Zardnaar (May 13, 2019)

I think the word is anti climatic. It's basically this seasons problem combined with the pacing. 
 Danys turn may have been a bit heavy handed but Morrus is right. She has been cruel for years it's just mostly the baddies. 


 Cleganebowl got a big send off and the Night King got a knife in back. Arya also probably got to much screen time. Cersei got sod all this season. Who cares about Euron.

 Focus should have been more on Dany, Cerersei, Jon. Pacing and execution sigh.

 Still think they should have sorted the politics out and had Night King be the big bad episode 5 or 6 with Kings Landing being that battle.

Plot twists and subverting expectations only go so far. Over do it and it becomes nothing really matters.  Such as nuclear dragons.


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## Maxperson (May 13, 2019)

jonesy said:


> It feels like there's 5 episodes of plot development missing from in between episodes three and five.
> 
> Did I really just see northmen killing unarmed soldiers and civilians just because Grey Worm went crazy? Like, were those former Bolton men, or what? Jon was right there and they just go in and slaughter people without even waiting for his command? What?




Yeah.  That scene and Dany just deciding to burn all of the innocents like that just blew chunks.  I mean, going all "Mad Queen" and hitting innocents while burning the enemy near the keep would be one thing.  Just targeting the innocents with no enemy soldiers around was stupid.


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## Maxperson (May 13, 2019)

Joker said:


> I even felt emotion at when Cercei and Jaime met and finally died.




Oh, right.  Let's just toss the whole prophecy out the window with that one.  The least they could have done would have been to have him tenderly holding her neck while kissing her when they died, so at least she could have died with the younger brother's hands around her neck like the prophecy said.


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## Morrus (May 13, 2019)

Maxperson said:


> Yeah.  That scene and Dany just deciding to burn all of the innocents like that just blew chunks.  I mean, going all "Mad Queen" and hitting innocents while burning the enemy near the keep would be one thing.  Just targeting the innocents with no enemy soldiers around was stupid.




She’s the Big Bad of the whole series. Not Cersei or the Night King. We’ve been watching her slowly become that over the years. It’s rushed a bit at the end here, but I’ve been expecting it for ages.


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## Maxperson (May 13, 2019)

Morrus said:


> So it turns out that it just takes one dragon to win everything. Dany could have flown to Westeros at any time in the last few years with just one of her three dragons and burned Kings Landing to the ground, and anywhere else she wanted to.




Especially since there wouldn't have even been the ballistae to worry about.



> All that political chess, all those armies, the Dothraki, the North, the Unsullied, none of it mattered in the end. Just one dragon beats everything. It’s a nuclear weapon.




Except for the rock Jon was hiding behind in episode 3.  If they had just quarried that kind of rock for the walls and the keep, she would have been in trouble.


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## Kaodi (May 13, 2019)

It was interesting to watch but I am not sure it really makes a whole lot of sense. Like, I am halfway to thinking that the bells trigged psychosis like blinking lights trigger seizures.


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## Zardnaar (May 13, 2019)

Problem with Dany as the big bad though is they only have a one episode build to it vs 8 seasons of say The Night King. Hell watch the first ever episode the build was for the white walkers.


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## jonesy (May 13, 2019)

I have an idea on how to explain Drogon's dominance this episode.

Euron only managed to get three scorpions constructed and their crews trained. The ones that killed Rhaegal.

The rest of the scorpions were literal cardboard cutouts. Dany figured it out because she is also a cardboard cutout this season.


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## Sadras (May 13, 2019)

jonesy said:


> I have an idea on how to explain Drogon's dominance this episode.
> 
> Euron only managed to get three scorpions constructed and their crews trained. The ones that killed Rhaegal.
> 
> The rest of the scorpions were literal cardboard cutouts. Dany figured it out because she is also a cardboard cutout this season.




Euron is also a cardboard cut out, cut from the same place they made Captain Marvel.

In other news there is a youtube vid going around by actor Ian McElhinney (Ser Barristan Selmy) at a  2019 russian con where he states that GRRM finished books 6+7 but cut a deal to release them soon after season 8.

Check minute 31:29

If this is true...


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## Joker (May 13, 2019)

Sadras said:


> Euron is also a cardboard cut out, cut from the same place they made Captain Marvel.
> 
> In other news there is a youtube vid going around by actor Ian McElhinney (Ser Barristan Selmy) at a  2019 russian con where he states that GRRM finished books 6+7 but cut a deal to release them soon after season 8.
> 
> ...




Good on him for wanting to make some money. He's got a few good charities going. I don't mind it.


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## Istbor (May 13, 2019)

Gladius Legis said:


> Worst. Episode. Of. Television. Ever.
> 
> That is all.




You must not watch that much Television then.


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## lowkey13 (May 13, 2019)

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## lowkey13 (May 13, 2019)

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## Joker (May 13, 2019)

Maxperson said:


> Oh, right.  Let's just toss the whole prophecy out the window with that one.  The least they could have done would have been to have him tenderly holding her neck while kissing her when they died, so at least she could have died with the younger brother's hands around her neck like the prophecy said.




The prophecies aren't exactly set in stone. People have human ways of interpreting them, seeing signs where there aren't any. A fair number of them don't even come true. 
George has said as much in his interviews. Prophecies are sometimes self-fulfilling. Sometimes they come true in ways that aren't particularly grand. 

Aside from that, I don't see how whether the prophecy coming true or not affects the emotion of those scenes. For me, both of them are tragic characters.


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## Kaodi (May 13, 2019)

Cersei was killed by her little brothers in a sense. Tyrion frees Jaime, who convinces Cersei there is a way out through the catacombs, but it is buried and they both die. Maybe if Tyrion had left Jaime alone Cersei would have gone out a different way (and probably still died in the end).


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## Ralif Redhammer (May 13, 2019)

While I think the writing and pace these last two seasons has undercut some of the story and characters, I loved how this season has subverted all expectations. Daenerys isn’t a liberator, but a vengeful conqueror. For all Tyrion’s vaunted intellect, his plan fails. Jon just spends this episode being horrified. Neither Arya nor Jaime kills Cersei. Cleganebowl was about the only thing that I thought went how one would've expected it to.

It’s not perfect, but honestly, ending a series with this much going on isn’t easy (as evidenced by GRRM still being stuck). There are bound to be some rough edges. But the top TV show is one with dragons and undead and magic swords, and that’s still pretty darn incredible.


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## lowkey13 (May 13, 2019)

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## Istbor (May 13, 2019)

I mean, Tyrion is the _Hand_ of the Queen to killed Cersei. So... he kind of killed her... maybe that was all the prophecy was. Or maybe the showrunners don't care about that bit, while the books if they ever come out, will go more into that.


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## Gladius Legis (May 13, 2019)

Istbor said:


> You must not watch that much Television then.




I've watched far more than you, I bet.

I can't think of another episode of anything that had so much stupid, illogical stuff going on, I'll say that much.


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## Istbor (May 13, 2019)

Gladius Legis said:


> I've watched far more than you, I bet.
> 
> I can't think of another episode of anything that had so much stupid, illogical stuff going on, I'll say that much.




Oooo, is this where we get to list off how much media we've consumed in an effort to see which of us is the superior nerd? Hard pass. 


If you think it was that bad, for you, then fine by me. I will argue that objectively, there are worse.


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## lowkey13 (May 13, 2019)

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## hawkeyefan (May 13, 2019)

All in all, I think the pace of things since they show moved past where the books are has been a bit too fast. But I think maybe they're taking the lesson of the books to heart....that a story can take on a life of its own and get away from you, and then you can struggle to finish. The last two seasons have felt a little like bullet points, in some ways. 

I think maybe a few more episodes worth of shows to help expand and elaborate on some of the plot points would have been good. But I get it....there are schedules, and other commitments and so on. I mean, that's a big difference from a novel to a show.....a novel can have a cast of millions and none of their schedules matter. 

There are a couple of things that I wish had played out a little differently, or that they had more time to add to them...but overall, I think it's been very good. And I really don't think that the Dany turn is that surprising. Every single time she's been faced with opposition, her answer is to burn people alive. It's just that we've witnessed her journey so closely and the fact that most of her victims have been awful people that we've rooted for her. 

But if you go back and look at things, this is what she's been saying she'll do all along. "We'll board the ships, and cross the poison water, and tear down their houses of stone, and burn them all." 

My only surprise at the turn at this point is that they decided to actually go through with it.


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## Manbearcat (May 13, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> View attachment 106416




I’ll second that emotion.

Loved it.

Loved this season (save for perhaps 3-4 scenes and transitions...which is a minor quibble).

Clearly I’m just a bad, shallow Game of Thrones’er.


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## lowkey13 (May 13, 2019)

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## Gladius Legis (May 13, 2019)

Istbor said:


> Oooo, is this where we get to list off how much media we've consumed in an effort to see which of us is the superior nerd? Hard pass.
> 
> 
> If you think it was that bad, for you, then fine by me. I will argue that objectively, there are worse.



And I will argue objectively that you are wrong.


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## Manbearcat (May 13, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> I mean, it's not great, and it certainly isn't (IMO) the best it's been, but I don't get some of the hate.
> 
> Well, actually, I do.
> 
> ...




Its been far from perfect yes.  But I enjoyed it because I enjoy media in a very focused way.  Its probably similar to the way I enjoy my gaming.

In fact, I would say that the issues that I've seen being put forth by hoards of people on Reddit and by personal nerd friends have great parallel to TTRPG incredulity and disdain.  Unsurprisingly, on these boards at least, I'm often on the opposite end of the discussion of the masses.

I think the investment you speak of is a big one.  I think the problem with people applying heuristics as their litmus test for scene plausibility and internal consistency is another one.  I also think there are arbitrary applications of expectations applied to this media that, if applied historically to other beloved media then those other historical pieces should suffer similar slings and arrows.

Does that sound familiar?

If that isn't "the TTRPG problem" or even "the D&D edition war problem", I don't know what is?

I'm a guy who has utterly loathed some of Game of Thrones and utterly adored other parts and have felt fairly muted on other parts.  I'm a guy who thought The Force Awakens was a fantastic movie on its own while also being a beautifully rendered Star Wars movie.  I'm also a guy who thought The Last Jedi was not only a terrible, incoherent Star Wars movie, but one, if not the worst, plain movies I've seen all time (especially given the stakes).  My guess is that there is a lot of overlap with TLJ incredulity/disdain and this last season of Thrones.  Interestingly, I'm not on board that train.


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## Gladius Legis (May 13, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> 1. Season finale of Dexter. (I'm a lumberjack!)
> 
> 2. Season 8 of Dexter.
> 
> ...



Seen all of those. Last night's Game of Thrones was still worse. Except maybe Dexter, but it's at that level of stupid. And nothing any of you say will change that.


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## Raunalyn (May 13, 2019)

Gladius Legis said:


> The actual thing? Sure, there's hints it could happen.
> 
> The _how_ and the _why_ the thing happened? I doubt GRRM sets it up anywhere near as clumsily or stupidly.




It was her revenge for everyone freaking out about the damned Starbucks cup that was left on-screen last episode...


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## lowkey13 (May 13, 2019)

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## Gladius Legis (May 13, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> Well, given that you just stated that anyone that disagrees with you is "objectively" wrong, I think you're right - nothing anyone says will change your mind.
> 
> Of course, anyone else will probably look at your assertions, quietly shake their heads, and turn away ... perhaps while remarking on the death of irony, or somesuch.
> 
> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯



This episode is below 50% on Rotten Tomatoes at the moment. I'm far from the only one who noticed this episode is awful. Apparently, however, this is the thread where all the Dumb & Dumber apologists decided to crawl out of the woodwork and attack me for speaking the cold hard truth.


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## lowkey13 (May 13, 2019)

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## Ralif Redhammer (May 13, 2019)

The final season of Roseanne, when it was revealed that the last few seasons had been a dream/story Roseanne wrote, and that Dan had died of a heart attack.



lowkey13 said:


> 6. Roseanne- winning the lottery, because that's what made the show good, you know, money.


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## lowkey13 (May 13, 2019)

*Deleted by user*


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## Derren (May 13, 2019)

This episode shows what has been wrong with GoT ever since they couldn't copy from the books anymore. The quality of the writing is several leagues below what GRRM delivered and its basic hollywood garbage with a plot copied from tvtropes full of holes, bad characters and to distract from that overblown CGI action.


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## hawkeyefan (May 13, 2019)

Istbor said:


> Oooo, is this where we get to list off how much media we've consumed in an effort to see which of us is the superior nerd? Hard pass.
> 
> 
> If you think it was that bad, for you, then fine by me. I will argue that objectively, there are worse.




Well I invented television! So there!

And my daddy can beat up your daddy!!!


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## MarkB (May 13, 2019)

So, basically, at some point Dany snuck into the Iron Fleet and stole all their plot armour. Suddenly the Scorpions go from being turn-on-a-dime railguns that can snipe a dragon out of the air in three high-precision shots and rapid-fire their way through an entire fleet to cumbersome things that take ten seconds to aim at anything and 30 seconds to reload. Okay, this version is more realistic, but seriously, why didn't Dany just burn Euron's fleet to cinders last episode?

And then there followed around an hour of gratuitous dragonning, none of which I can bring myself to give a damn about. What fun is a battle without any good guys?


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## lowkey13 (May 13, 2019)

*Deleted by user*


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## Mallus (May 13, 2019)

Gladius Legis said:


> This episode is below 50% on Rotten Tomatoes at the moment. I'm far from the only one who noticed this episode is awful.



Some friendly advice: citing RT percentages is good way to sabotage any critical argument you're trying to make. I believe the name for the fallacy is "_argumentum ad populum sui-selectum et neckbarbatum_" 



> Apparently, however, this is the thread where all the Dumb & Dumber apologists decided to crawl out of the woodwork and attack me for speaking the cold hard truth.



Truth? What is truth? Sorry, feeling a bit Pilate-y today. 

On the strength of the direction & cinematography alone "The Bells" deserves an Emmy. As the penultimate episode of Got... well, I'm not sure exactly how I feel about it today. While I was watching it my responses were: gripping, beautiful, awful, kinda... appropriate. It's amazing how the show can make its audience forget it's at the heart a subversion of epic fantasy. Again and again. And then provoke such a response when it flies its true colors.

I was surprised at how much I enjoyed CleganeBowl. I wasn't really invested in it. But the way they shot it, placing the emotional core of the fight prior to it happening -- ie Sandor convincing Arya to 'choose life' -- and then the combat itself as heroically beautiful futility was pretty bold and interesting.

I do wish the show-runners would have gone with one more season. They could have gotten to the same place by a more satisfying route.


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## hawkeyefan (May 13, 2019)

MarkB said:


> So, basically, at some point Dany snuck into the Iron Fleet and stole all their plot armour. Suddenly the Scorpions go from being turn-on-a-dime railguns that can snipe a dragon out of the air in three high-precision shots and rapid-fire their way through an entire fleet to cumbersome things that take ten seconds to aim at anything and 30 seconds to reload. Okay, this version is more realistic, but seriously, why didn't Dany just burn Euron's fleet to cinders last episode?
> 
> And then there followed around an hour of gratuitous dragonning, none of which I can bring myself to give a damn about. What fun is a battle without any good guys?




I don't think that was portrayed perfectly....they likely could have established the situations more clearly. But I do think there's a difference between ships striking from hiding against an enemy that was unaware of them. The dragons were just floating along at that point. Then Rhaegon got hit, and thrashed a bit, and was vulnerable to more hits. 

Dany sees him go down and begins to fly right at the boats, but realizes she's being hasty, and turns away. 

Then, in last night's episode, she dives from the sun, ready for their attacks, moving quickly to minimize how useful the scorpions are, and unleashes the dragon's fire. The ships couldn't react fast enough, and that was it. 

Again, probably could have been portrayed better, but I think it works. 

If anything my criticism is how the dragonfire causes everything to explode! But I don't know if that contradicts what we've already seen.


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## Mallus (May 13, 2019)

I think it’s reasonable to assume Dany went up in level right before last nights episode and she put all her skill points in Aerial Combat!


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## Istbor (May 13, 2019)

MarkB said:


> So, basically, at some point Dany snuck into the Iron Fleet and stole all their plot armour. Suddenly the Scorpions go from being turn-on-a-dime railguns that can snipe a dragon out of the air in three high-precision shots and rapid-fire their way through an entire fleet to cumbersome things that take ten seconds to aim at anything and 30 seconds to reload. Okay, this version is more realistic, but seriously, why didn't Dany just burn Euron's fleet to cinders last episode?
> 
> And then there followed around an hour of gratuitous dragonning, none of which I can bring myself to give a damn about. What fun is a battle without any good guys?




Yeah. I smirked at that as well. Suddenly the Scorpions behaved as you'd expect them to. 

All in all though, I was pretty happy with the way the episode went. Made for some awesome Dragoning.


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## MarkB (May 13, 2019)

hawkeyefan said:


> I don't think that was portrayed perfectly....they likely could have established the situations more clearly. But I do think there's a difference between ships striking from hiding against an enemy that was unaware of them. The dragons were just floating along at that point. Then Rhaegon got hit, and thrashed a bit, and was vulnerable to more hits.
> 
> Dany sees him go down and begins to fly right at the boats, but realizes she's being hasty, and turns away.
> 
> ...



Every single Scorpion crew in the bay and on the walls was ready and waiting for an attack. And while Dany was diving at any one cluster, the rest had all the time in the world to line up their shots. Barring one initial volley, the tactical situation for Dany was _worse_ in this episode than the last one, because her targets weren't all clustered together. And yet this time she doesn't take a scratch.



> If anything my criticism is how the dragonfire causes everything to explode! But I don't know if that contradicts what we've already seen.




We haven't really seen it unleashed full force against a structure before now - but it's certainly no more powerful than when the Night King blew up the Wall with an undead dragon. The only thing that got to me was the sheer volume. Apparently the dragons can breathe fire forever, more or less.


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## Manbearcat (May 13, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> Simply put, I'd argue that when D&D (heh) decided that they'd end it in 13 episodes, despite HBO wanting more, they didn't give themselves enough room to breathe. That's been the biggest problem- too much plot, too little time, so a show that has previously focused on the payout from the long game now feels like it's rushing through unearned plot points (not to mention the discombobulation of the time the last two seasons; how long does it take things to happen, where are people in relation to each other, how much time is passing etc.).




See, this is interesting to me (and one of the reasons I brought up gaming as a corollary or coincidental reference-point if you'd like).

I've enjoyed the ramped-up pacing.  If there is one complaint I've had about Game of Thrones and other modern media (Avengers Endgame, The Last Jedi, and Black Panther come to mind), its a combination of pacing and (mostly related) poor cutting (including adjacent scenes that were tonally jarring or momentum damaging or overwhelmingly gratuitous setting/character tourism).

"Star Wars Was Saved in the Edit" is a good documentary for any fantasy-based media specifically (and plenty of other non-fantasy-based media).  

Something like "There Will Be Blood" or "The Murder of the Outlaw Jesse James By the Coward Robert Ford" is a different animal.  I suppose if people feel like Thrones is, or should be, closer to either of these than the inevitable Grim to High Fantasy drift inherent to its tropes...then, personally, the complaint would carry more weight with me.

I don't know where I'd put McCarthy's No Country For Old Men or The Road on that continuum.  Given his brilliant, minimalist prose and the potency of every sentence, I feel it is an amazing combination of the heft and weight of the latter with the pacing and organization of the former.  But Thrones is not that (and could never hope to achieve it because GRRM is more King than McCarthy). 

Coming back full circle to my initial statement, my gaming preferences follows suit; economy of time and action with a ceaseless deluge of hard choices + an onslaught of conflict as it snowballs then crescendos into climax and denouement...no "wasted" motion.


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## lowkey13 (May 13, 2019)

*Deleted by user*


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## jonesy (May 13, 2019)

Sadras said:


> In other news there is a youtube vid going around by actor Ian McElhinney (Ser Barristan Selmy) at a  2019 russian con where he states that GRRM finished books 6+7 but cut a deal to release them soon after season 8.



Ugh. On the one hand, why would he make that up? On the other, who told him that?

We've been burned far too many times by GRRM himself regarding book releases. I'm wary of believing anything about asoiaf until it happens. 




Mallus said:


> I was surprised at how much I enjoyed CleganeBowl. I wasn't really invested in it. But the way they shot it, placing the emotional core of the fight prior to it happening -- ie Sandor convincing Arya to 'choose life' -- and then the combat itself as heroically beautiful futility was pretty bold and interesting.



That _was_ surprisingly good. Even after all the seasons, all the actor swaps for Gregor, and all the hype placed upon it.


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## variant (May 13, 2019)

Morrus said:


> So it turns out that it just takes one dragon to win everything. Dany could have flown to Westeros at any time in the last few years with just one of her three dragons and burned Kings Landing to the ground, and anywhere else she wanted to.
> 
> All that political chess, all those armies, the Dothraki, the North, the Unsullied, none of it mattered in the end. Just one dragon beats everything. It’s a nuclear weapon.




The dragons had to grow up, but they've always been likened to weapons of mass destruction.


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## hawkeyefan (May 13, 2019)

MarkB said:


> Every single Scorpion crew in the bay and on the walls was ready and waiting for an attack. And while Dany was diving at any one cluster, the rest had all the time in the world to line up their shots. Barring one initial volley, the tactical situation for Dany was _worse_ in this episode than the last one, because her targets weren't all clustered together. And yet this time she doesn't take a scratch.




The walls were out of reach, and the boats were all ready, yes, but with the cloud cover, where were they aiming? Given the speed she hit them with, and the time it took for a crew to aim a scorpion,  don't think they had all the time in the world by any means. So the way I saw it was that the boats were all kind of clustered, but not in a set formation....each was facing its own way, and they were unsure where she'd come from. 

Whereas in last episode, the boats had cliffs on either side and had a clear shot at the dragon. 

I think they could have maybe portrayed some of this more clearly, or maybe had someone watching make a comment to help explain, but no such luck. I feel like so many complaints like this could be prevented or addressed with like one line of dialogue. 



MarkB said:


> We haven't really seen it unleashed full force against a structure before now - but it's certainly no more powerful than when the Night King blew up the Wall with an undead dragon. The only thing that got to me was the sheer volume. Apparently the dragons can breathe fire forever, more or less.




Yeah, the amount kind of surprised me as well, but that's because of my D&D upbringing. I don't know if they ever established how often or for how long a full grown dragon could breath fire. 

For comparisons to the undead dragon....at that point, I don't even know if it's breathing fire anymore, and the wall was ice rather than stone...and hinted to be magical in nature, too....so it's hard to say if the comparison works.


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## variant (May 13, 2019)

This is one of the best episodes of Game of Thrones in a very long time, I would say since Hardhome. Season 7 was terrible except for the small portion of Jon's reveal. Season 8 except episode 1 hasn't been good either, up until this point. The show writing simply hasn't been good since most of season 5 with a few good episodes through the remaining seasons.

I feel most people hating on this episode is doing it simply because it's evoking emotions they don't like to feel.


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## Gladius Legis (May 13, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> a show that has previously focused on the payout from the long game now feels like it's rushing through unearned plot points (not to mention the discombobulation of the time the last two seasons; how long does it take things to happen, where are people in relation to each other, how much time is passing etc.).



With all these flaws you mentioned (and I agree with), how can you possibly still consider this show "good"? These are fatal flaws in any show, book, movie or what have you, failures of Storytelling 101.


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## Manbearcat (May 13, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> So, here's where I would disagree with you.
> 
> Prior to the last two seasons, the strength of this show has been the intricate plotting and the characters; the growth of the characters and the developments in the plot have felt earned. Even something "shocking" (say, the Red Wedding or Ned Stark at the end of S1) is not shocking in terms of the character or the developments, but was only shocking in terms of the viewer expectations of what should happen in a show.*
> 
> ...




Again, interesting because we have agreement and disagreement here.

I agree that the "simmer" (let's call it) of Game of Thrones has been essential to the cognitive workspace that viewers inhabit as they watch it unfold.

But for my part, (more food!) oversteeping something can lead to a bitter, wrong-noted product.

When I look at two of the primary character arcs that were just recently brought to climax, I feel like "more isn't better."  

Cersei has been one of my favorite characters.  I really liked the way her downfall exposed her core pathos.

Her entire life she gambled on the Lannister brand; her idea of the destiny, reach, canniness, and raw power of her family's legacy and approach (including shrewd, calculating cruelty).  The delusion of her (and her family's) invincibility was slowly...and then SUDDENLY pulled back to her...piece by piece...until she was reduced to facing it as a scared child might.

You see that with a lot of people who perceive themselves as invincible (and the evidence of their life supports that idea).  The cup of history overfloweth with that narrative when it comes to dictators and strongmen.  Interestingly, Tiger Woods downfall has a nice parallel (apex athletes are the most strategically delusional creatures possible).

The suddenness of it was extremely potent for me.  That is how it happens.  Quick...brutal.

The same goes for Daenyrys.  The latent villainy of her bloodline has been there from the beginning...it was a slow, back-and-forth journey to get to the precipice where she would soar away from those earthly shackles or plummet into the destiny she sought to avoid.  

Its like "The Killing Joke."  One bad day.  That is all it takes.  In my opinion, the suddenness of it...the potency of losing so much so quickly is what makes it more compelling...more visceral.  And more relatable.  I think most people in this world haven't lost a ton in a short span of time, so they don't realize how it undoes a person.  

Anyway, I thought it was very well rendered precisely for its suddenness.  Drawing it out (either temporally or via scene structure) wouldn't have enhanced it for me.  It would have damaged it.


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## lowkey13 (May 13, 2019)

*Deleted by user*


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## Mercurius (May 13, 2019)

Gladius Legis said:


> And I will argue *objectively* that you are wrong.


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## Mercurius (May 13, 2019)

Regardless of criticism, from the more literary-cinematic to the more fannish outrage at missed expectations and/or questionable elements of the story, GoT remains quite enjoyable in terms of pure entertainment. That last episode was _wildly_ entertaining television.

That said, the episode was hard to watch: the sheer number of deaths, the wanton violence, the gratuitous gore (more so than most other episodes); and yes, the tragedy of seeing one of the main characters complete her transformation into villainy. But it worked - it was effective. I was wowed. But I ended it in a similar mental space as after watching something like _Requiem for a Dream,_ thinking "that was quality cinema, but why do I need to see that? How does that in any way nourish me as a human being except as yet another reminder of how messed up things can get?"

So I'll add another element: What is it in us, culturally and individually, that so relishes this sort of "suffering porn?" I understand that story requires conflict, that story _is_ conflict and overcoming it and that there's always suffering along the way, but GoT has upped to ante and relies quite a bit on suffering for its effectiveness. Its a bit cheap and speaks a lot to our cultural obsession with pathos.

But...can't wait for the series finale.


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## CapnZapp (May 13, 2019)

Sadras said:


> Not even nudity could have saved this season.



I'm not sure, shame they didn't try.


----------



## CapnZapp (May 13, 2019)

https://twitter.com/culposkenken/status/1127777055108546560


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## Zardnaar (May 13, 2019)

Kind of with Lowkey, it wasn't the worst TV ever.  Dexter, Trueblood, and How I met your Mother were all fairly unwatchable in the last seasons. This season is more of a let down and a lot of stupid.

 Compared to how good the show was the disappointment I think is the thing. Game of Thrones was on a different level early on up there with The Wire, Breaking Bad, Sopranos type quality. Its been declining (slowly) since season 4 and if I had to pinpoint it the death of Joffrey or Tywin.


----------



## Zardnaar (May 13, 2019)

CapnZapp said:


> https://twitter.com/culposkenken/status/1127777055108546560




 Yup, put up Kits one. In this video Nathalie's reaction was also interesting. 

 If you want a few giggles try watching the blu ray early seasons with the actors commentary and pay attention to Lena's commentary. She swears like a trooper lol.

 Best season evah, it is known. BBC gave the episode 2/5.

http://www.bbc.com/culture/story/20190513-game-of-thrones-the-bells-review


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## Maxperson (May 14, 2019)

Ralif Redhammer said:


> (as evidenced by GRRM still being stuck).




I read an article today that the actor who played Ser Baristan Selmy said that Martin was finished with both book 6 and 7, but had a deal with HBO not to release them until after the series was over.  I have no idea if that's true or not, but it's a very interesting thing for him to say.


----------



## Maxperson (May 14, 2019)

MarkB said:


> So, basically, at some point Dany snuck into the Iron Fleet and stole all their plot armour. Suddenly the Scorpions go from being turn-on-a-dime railguns that can snipe a dragon out of the air in three high-precision shots and rapid-fire their way through an entire fleet to cumbersome things that take ten seconds to aim at anything and 30 seconds to reload. Okay, this version is more realistic, but seriously, why didn't Dany just burn Euron's fleet to cinders last episode?
> 
> And then there followed around an hour of gratuitous dragonning, none of which I can bring myself to give a damn about. What fun is a battle without any good guys?




Hey!  We had occasional flashes to Jon running around all confused and upset, with the odd stabby stabby here and there.


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## Maxperson (May 14, 2019)

hawkeyefan said:


> I don't think that was portrayed perfectly....they likely could have established the situations more clearly. But I do think there's a difference between ships striking from hiding against an enemy that was unaware of them.




Ships can't do that, though.  It takes a loooooong time for ships to come out from behind a cliff and then aim at flying dragons and a queen that are all looking at the island the ships are crawling out from behind.  That ambush was some of the poorest writing of the season.  Only the Charge of the Night Brigade was worse.


----------



## Maxperson (May 14, 2019)

MarkB said:


> We haven't really seen it unleashed full force against a structure before now - but it's certainly no more powerful than when the Night King blew up the Wall with an undead dragon. The only thing that got to me was the sheer volume. Apparently the dragons can breathe fire forever, more or less.




And we learned that the Red Keep and city walls should have been built out that rock Jon was hiding behind in episode 3.


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## hawkeyefan (May 14, 2019)

Maxperson said:


> Ships can't do that, though.  It takes a loooooong time for ships to come out from behind a cliff and then aim at flying dragons and a queen that are all looking at the island the ships are crawling out from behind.  That ambush was some of the poorest writing of the season.  Only the Charge of the Night Brigade was worse.




They were behind the rocks and waited till the dragons flew into their line of fire. Dany and the dragons were caught unaware.


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## Maxperson (May 14, 2019)

hawkeyefan said:


> They were behind the rocks and waited till the dragons flew into their line of fire. Dany and the dragons were caught unaware.




No they didn't.  If you watch the scene, they came out from behind the rocks and shot at them.  There were no ships, then *poof* ships with speed boat engines were suddenly well out in front of that cliff face and then attacked with ballistae that can shoot farther than is possible, with pinpoint accuracy at fast moving targets(impossible by the way) while moving up and down on waves.  It was a stupid, stupid scene.


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## hawkeyefan (May 14, 2019)

Maxperson said:


> No they didn't.  If you watch the scene, they came out from behind the rocks and shot at them.  There were no ships, then *poof* ships with speed boat engines were suddenly well out in front of that cliff face and then attacked with ballistae that can shoot farther than is possible, with pinpoint accuracy at fast moving targets(impossible by the way) while moving up and down on waves.  It was a stupid, stupid scene.




Eh tomayto tomahto, Max.


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## Maxperson (May 14, 2019)

hawkeyefan said:


> Eh tomayto tomahto, Max.




That would mean that you agree with me that it was a stupid, stupid scene with things that made no sense at all, but are just saying it a bit differently.  I can accept that.


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## MarkB (May 14, 2019)

The opening credits will be interesting next week. That poor King's Landing model's going to be totally trashed.


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## Sadras (May 14, 2019)

The _Inside the Episode_ segments are highly entertaining where the showruiners justify their blunders...


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## Sadras (May 14, 2019)

Manbearcat said:


> See, this is interesting to me (and one of the reasons I brought up gaming as a corollary or coincidental reference-point if you'd like).
> 
> I've enjoyed the ramped-up pacing.
> 
> ...




Ramped up pacing with logical sense thrown in sure...but this was senseless.

I also disagree with @_*hawkeyefan*_ with his (and I'm going to say it) apologist view of the scorpion use. Again this goes back to what feels 'more real'

For instance

*Episode 4 scene*
Instead of having Bronn complete the Tyrion sidestory (_I will pay you double_), they should have tasked him with assassinating the Dragon Queen after the NK debacle. In that moment Missandei dies saving Daenerys taking the deadly bolt. Then we would not have that unnecessary Euron/Missandei moment and her silly execution but the grief would still be real.

*Revised Episode 5*
Remove dragon getting killed by Euron, rather have the dragon wounded in the battle by one of the scorpions, as it crashlands alive in KL. It makes the scorpions seem useful/effective but not supermagical and doesn't have to nullify them from one episode to the next. Jon, who was riding said dragon falls into the water before the beast crashlands into the city.

The Bells Ring, but the scorpions on the walls have already taken aim at the wounded dragon writhing and lashing about in the city, they ignore the bells and fire to slay the beast. The death of her dragon after the sounding of the bells sends Daenerys over the edge (having lost Jorah, been betrayed by Varis who attempted to poison her, Jon's secret now out, lost another dragon needlessly and believing to have lost Jon too, maybe even Greyworm - see below), she begins the massacre – and in the process slays innocents. Feeling alone and Mad with Emotion. Daenerys needed many losses in a short space of time to make her lash out the way she did.
Unbeknownst to her Jon survives and watches in horror at the the devastation she wreaks.

Davos pulls back the Northmen and the Vale soldiers (where is their leader) but Greyworm/Unsullied and a handful of Dothraki push on butchering and continue the slaying. Also we do not need to mushroom these forces everytime there is fight - it is ok to use less extras!!!* They could have also given Greyworm a cool action scene with the Golden Company captain, Harry Strickland. Perhaps Greyworm dies. What a wasted opportunity not to use Strickland.

Arya finds and kills Ilyn Payne – the one who beheaded her father. Cleganebowl ensues – with Arya forced perhaps to push the Hound/the Mountain over the edge into the fire, at the Hound’s behest as he asks for her help, thereby crossing off another two names of her list, leaving only Cersei as the remaining name. We didn't need a repeat of The Mountain/Oberyn fight.

Euron and Yara meet – with Yara killing her uncle and taking back the Ironborn fleet. Better this than that farcical moment and death scene with Euron/Jaime. Honestly, what were they thinking? Or forget Yara and just have Euron burned at his scorpion up by Daenerys - no more than 10 seconds wasted on this joke of a character.

Meanwhile Arya pushes on, to be surprised by Qyburn and the kids (Varys’s ex-little birds). Unable/unwilling to slay children Arya is overwhelmed – enter Cersei. Soliloquy ensues with Cersei moving to kill a bound Arya. In the last moments, Jaime rescues Arya, having heard a damning confession from Cersei, enough for him to pierce through the blind love he had for her and so he fulfills the prophecy with him strangling her as the building around them begins to crumble. Arya makes her escape and in the fleeing moments sees Maester Qyburn fall victim to the fallen debris.


That would have been a better episode 5, IMO:
1)    Jaime/Cersei arc complete, prophecy fulfilled;
2)    Arya crosses all her names off her list – arc fulfilled;
3)    Cleganebowl – Hound arc complete;
4)    Makes use of Harry Strickland and the Golden Company better;
5)    Greyworm gets to show off and be part of an action scene;
6) Euron character limited to allow for more use of time for better storyarcs;
7)    Use of Davos and depicts Northmen/Vale not as savages/wildings;
8)    Qyburn’s scorpions seem useful/effective in a realistic manner as opposed to superweapon before the fight then a big 0 on the actual day;
9)    1 less dragon = same as before.
10)    1 dragon not used in the entire destruction of everything and at least losses are suffered on Khaleesi's side (1 dragon);
11) Death of the dragon would probably be more emotional with more on-screen time - as it is slowly butchered by the Golden Company and the scorpions, unable to escape its plight.
12)    Better justifies Khaleesi’s descent of going ‘mad’ - adds in the 'mad with grief' angle too  

Thing we lose with this 
1)    Missandei’s start and end story-arc in chains, I found it poetic.
2)    Bronn/Tyrion – _I will pay you double_ side story.


* More on this. You want the viewer to see her forces diminish drastically to realise how isolated and unappreciated she feels - having lost 90% of her forces against the NK, so why do they keep mushrooming them in episodes thereafter. I mean the Long Night seems to have failed in all areas if they cannot reflect a much smaller army.


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## Imaculata (May 14, 2019)

This episode was one giant character assassination. I know that they were trying to build up to Dany's madness, but they had not built it up to the point where killing thousands of innocent civillians feels like something she would do. This feels completely divorced from her character up to this point.

Also, apparently dragon fire behaves like a missile now, and has concussive force to blow apart stone buildings. According to the books, dragonfire can melt stone... but it is not explosive.
At this point I suspect George RR Martin gave the show runners some very basic outlines of how the story would end:

-Dany goes mad
-The Red Keep falls.
-Cersei and Jamie die in each other's arms
-The Hound and The Mountain fight, and the Hound dies by fire.
-Euron dies by Jamie's hands.

But it doesn't seem the details were fleshed out by him yet, and so he gave them the freedom to do whatever, thus explaining how clunky this all feels. It lacks the feeling that anything came full circle, or that gutpunch from earlier seasons, when they were still more or less following the books. There's a lot of plot points from the books that did not get a pay off at all, and I don't suspect they will with the final episode.

-No pay off to Sansa's dream about the Hound
-No pay off regarding the valonqar prophecy
-No pay off to The Hound's spiritual journey
-No pay off to the Ironborn and to Asha's (Yarra) storyline

By the way did Arya do anything useful at all this episode apart from running around a lot?


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## MarkB (May 14, 2019)

Imaculata said:


> By the way did Arya do anything useful at all this episode apart from running around a lot?



Did anyone?


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## Kaodi (May 14, 2019)

I saw a great thread on Twitter regarding why the show feels so different from the books. Basically the thesis was that GRRM writes books organically - asking what these characters would do in this situation and lets the plot evolve from there. Whereas these last few seasons the show has been entirely focused on the plot and the "events" they want to happen, rather than really being focused on the characters motivations. So the show ended up as something like a checklist, in contrast to how the books keep ballooning with more and more character detail.


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## Zardnaar (May 14, 2019)

Waiting for subverting expectations and Ghost getting the throne.

 Predictability isn't to bad. Just watched Wonder Women and she defeats Ares. Blowing up Starkiller base kinda guessed it.


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## jonesy (May 14, 2019)

One episode left. It's been a crazy ride. Whatever else I might think about how things have been going at least it's been entertaining.


What I would like to happen:
- Throne room. Dany orders Drogon to kill Tyrion for treason. Jon Snow does nothing.
- Tyrion reveals his real father was a Targaryen, Drogon refuses to act.
- Dany orders Grey Worm to kill Tyrion. Jon Snow does nothing.
- Grey Worm trips on his feet and falls into Drogon's mouth. Drogon chokes and bites down. Both die.
- Jon Snow removes his face. It's Littlefinger. Petyr kills Dany and sits on a partially melted Iron Throne.
- Sansa walks in and says "that worked out just like we planned". Petyr gives her the North.
- Arya comes in with Gendry, says they're retiring to the Stormlands. Their child will be called Sandor.
- King Baelish makes Tyrion hand of the king. Tyrion agrees on the condition that he gets to vacation at the Summer Isles first. He wants to go searching for someone.
- Brienne digs Jaime out of the rubble of the Red Keep. He's barely alive. She places Melisandre's necklace on him. They ride off into the sunset.
- Bronn is Lord of Highgarden. He looks really bored. He jumps on a horse and rides away.
- Sam and Gilly go home. They agree Little Sam will be a great lord one day.
- Davos sails west of Westeros with Salladhor Saan.
- Jon Snow goes north, finds Ghost and gives him a hug. They decide to walk as north as north goes. Tormund is with them. Up north they find the last village of the Children of the Forest. The Children tell them "it's not over".
- Bran comes seeking audience with King Baelish. Staring contest. The camera zooms in closer and closer. Only Bran's face is visible. Suddenly his eyes turn ice-blue. Bran smiles at the camera. He stands up, and starts walking towards Petyr. The ground beneath his feet turns to ice.
- Jaqen arrives at the gates of Storm's End. Knocks. Takes off his face. It's Syrio Forel. He laughs.


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## Raunalyn (May 14, 2019)

Mercurius said:


> Regardless of criticism, from the more literary-cinematic to the more fannish outrage at missed expectations and/or questionable elements of the story, GoT remains quite enjoyable in terms of pure entertainment. That last episode was _wildly_ entertaining television.
> 
> That said, the episode was hard to watch: the sheer number of deaths, the wanton violence, the gratuitous gore (more so than most other episodes); and yes, the tragedy of seeing one of the main characters complete her transformation into villainy. But it worked - it was effective. I was wowed. But I ended it in a similar mental space as after watching something like _Requiem for a Dream,_ thinking "that was quality cinema, but why do I need to see that? How does that in any way nourish me as a human being except as yet another reminder of how messed up things can get?"
> 
> ...




It was entertaining, yes. I have some serious criticisms about it, however. Mainly in the fact that the sudden transformation into madness for Danaerys wasn't believable for me. Yes, I know that she has been showing signs of this over the past few episodes, and my criticism is also tempered by the fact that the show-runners are actually limited on the number of episodes and time to show this plot development. The snap into a murderous rage for me just didn't click, though.


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## Zardnaar (May 14, 2019)

Even if Dany gets her just desserts next week it's a bit of a meh. She hasn't been bad long enough to care.


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## Raunalyn (May 14, 2019)

I also had an issue with how Cersei "died." I think it would have been much more satisfying to have one more scene with Jaime and Cersei buried beneath the rubble together, and Jaime reaching over to choke Cersei to death so that she wouldn't have to suffer. It would have fulfilled the Valonquar prophecy, too.


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## Ralif Redhammer (May 14, 2019)

As much as it would be awesome to see the last two books come out quickly once the series came out, I don’t think that’s likely. His last two books took, what 11 years to write, and he’s only gotten slower since then.

Besides, I doubt Bantam Books would be okay with this, considering how overdue The Winds of Winter is. Maybe if HBO dumped a giant pile of money in front of them…



Maxperson said:


> I read an article today that the actor who played Ser Baristan Selmy said that Martin was finished with both book 6 and 7, but had a deal with HBO not to release them until after the series was over.  I have no idea if that's true or not, but it's a very interesting thing for him to say.


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## Sadras (May 14, 2019)

Well he has publicly stated on his Not-A-Blog-Site that the rumour that he has finished book 6 and 7 is emphatically not true. In fact he states that he has not even begun book 7.


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## Gladius Legis (May 14, 2019)

Raunalyn said:


> It was entertaining, yes. I have some serious criticisms about it, however. Mainly in the fact that the sudden transformation into madness for Danaerys wasn't believable for me. Yes, I know that she has been showing signs of this over the past few episodes, and my criticism is also tempered by the fact that the show-runners are actually limited on the number of episodes and time to show this plot development. The snap into a murderous rage for me just didn't click, though.



Well, Dumb & Dumber brought that on themselves. HBO wanted Season 8 to have more episodes, but Dumb & Dumber refused.


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## hawkeyefan (May 14, 2019)

Sadras said:


> Ramped up pacing with logical sense thrown in sure...but this was senseless.
> 
> I also disagree with @_*hawkeyefan*_ with his (and I'm going to say it) apologist view of the scorpion use. Again this goes back to what feels 'more real'




I said that the portrayal of the scorpion use could have been handled better. The angles could have been clearer or a line of dialogue could have been added to help clarify what was happening.

I simply don’t think that the lack of clarity is as egregious as many others. Nor do I think it’s something entirely new. Plenty of examples of it prior to the last couple of seasons. 

And I agree that the pace of things is a bit rushed. I would have been happy for there to be a few more episodes in order to expand on things a bit. Make them feel more organic.

All that said, however, I’m just not going to let this minor stuff truly affect my view of the show. I would say that when things are a bit unclear, I tend to give a charitable view. Others prefer to do the opposite. 

I’m also willing to let the creators tell the story they want to tell. I don’t get mad that they don’t follow the path I’ve thought up in my head. 

In my opinion, a lot of the criticisms seem to come from that more than anything, or that they are enhanced because of that. “THIS ISN’T WHAT I THOUGHT IT WOULD BE, IT’S THEREFORE TERRIBLE!” 

I have plenty of criticisms about the show. Always have. I just don’t let them do that weird fanboy heel turn thing where they make me hate something I’ve enjoyed for many years.


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## Sadras (May 14, 2019)

hawkeyefan said:


> All that said, however, I’m just not going to let this minor stuff truly affect my view of the show.




I have to ask then, what would be major then, in your estimation? I'm curious where your line is drawn.

EDIT: Furthermore I think at this point (season 8) some of us have been more than a little charitable, especially given the last few seasons. It isn't just one episode or one season that has been a clustercluck so forgive me if I don't share the lets poo-poo on the fanboys for their attitudes.
For me it is about common sense and consistency (in character and other). That has been sorely lacking for a while. The chorus is getting louder these days.


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## lowkey13 (May 14, 2019)

*Deleted by user*


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## Ralif Redhammer (May 14, 2019)

This. It's possible to enjoy something and still be critical of it. There are parts of Game of Thrones that I think could be done better, but I still love the show.

Hatewatching only feeds fandom toxicity.



hawkeyefan said:


> I have plenty of criticisms about the show. Always have. I just don’t let them do that weird fanboy heel turn thing where they make me hate something I’ve enjoyed for many years.


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## hawkeyefan (May 14, 2019)

Sadras said:


> I have to ask then, what would be major then, in your estimation? I'm curious where your line is drawn.




I'm not sure, really. I'd have to see it to know it. But I think it would be something that was very concretely contradictory rather than just poorly presented. To use the Scorpion example....I can believe that the Iron Fleet could hit a flying dragon who was not expecting their attack, and I can believe that Dany and Drogon could effectively attack and defeat the Iron Fleet despite their Scorpions. The conditions are different in the two events, so I don't see them as contradictory. I don't think the first was portrayed very well, but I don't think that a matter of presentation is the kind of thing I'm talking about. 

To use another example....I would have gone (and expected them to go) in a very different route with regard to Jaime. I think in the books, it's very likely that Jaime will help the Hound defeat the Mountain (pretty sure Dany has a vision of this in the House of the Undying; something about "a golden knight and a hound fighting a giant knight with armor made of stone", paraphrasing, but that's the gist) and then he'll go on to actually kill Cersei (fulfilling the prophecy of the little brother). He'll be faced with a similar choice as to the one he faced with the Mad King, and he'll make the same choice, because he knows it's right. That's the arc I wanted for him, and the one I think he's on in the books (if Stoneheart can somehow let go of her hate, I suppose.....maybe someday we'll find out). 

However, the show went a different route. Jaime remains faithful to Cersei despite the influence of Brienne. He simply cannot move past the horrible things he's done, and so he thinks he belongs with Cersei rather than a worthy person like Brienne. Then he has his chat with Tyrion, and he essentially sets out to try and save Cersei in order to redeem her. I think he genuinely wanted to simply escape with her and live their life with the baby quietly for the rest of their days. Obviously, it wasn't to be so. 

This is a different route than I would have taken, but I don't think it's at all inconsistent with what we've seen in the show. Book Jaime has a much more definitive falling out with Cersei that Show Jaime never has. I don't have a problem with the show's interpretation of this simply because it doesn't match my expectations.



Sadras said:


> EDIT: Furthermore I think at this point (season 8) some of us have been more than a little charitable, especially given the last few seasons. It isn't just one episode or one season that has been a clustercluck so forgive me if I don't share the lets poo-poo on the fanboys for their attitudes.
> For me it is about common sense and consistency (in character and other). That has been sorely lacking for a while. The chorus is getting louder these days.




That's fine. You are absolutely entitled to your opinion. I expect I even share some of your opinions about the show. But may I ask, if the show has let you down so much, why do you still watch? 

I try to temper my expectations with the realities of production of a show on this scale, and with trying to complete the story in the amount of episodes that remain. I'd have preferred a few more episodes so that things don't feel so rushed, but that was not to be. We can guess as to why, but likely our guesses will fall far short of the complexity that goes into a film production of this scope. "Just make more episodes" is a pretty easy thing to demand, and quite another to actually produce. 

I do think that there's a strange phenomenon that happens with fans sometimes where they create expectations that will simply never be reached. And then very often what happens is that valid criticism ("the pacing of later seasons seems a bit too fast") is replaced by insult ("Dumb & Dumber have brought this on themselves"). You can see it in this thread, and you can see much more of it elsewhere online.


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## Tonguez (May 14, 2019)

it was better than last weeks shocker, the battle made sense, was big and bloody and it was day time so I could see stuff.

Dany has always had a draconian streak but her descent to madness could have perhaps been better explored. However the dragon going nuclear after being so useless last episode was disappointing and other than psychosis it made no sense burning the town rather than flying straight to the Red Keep and completely destroying it and everyone inside - including all the innocents held there.

Also tending to believe now that Arya is Azor Ahai and will kill a fiery dragon


----------



## jonesy (May 14, 2019)

[video=youtube;CpTZ-tC81yA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpTZ-tC81yA[/video]


Edit: meant to post this in the What Are You Listening To? thread. They released it two days ago.


----------



## Sadras (May 14, 2019)

jonesy said:


> [video=youtube;CpTZ-tC81yA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpTZ-tC81yA[/video]
> 
> 
> Edit: meant to post this in the What Are You Listening To? thread. They released it two days ago.




This is the most character development we have  ever seen on the Night King


----------



## jonesy (May 14, 2019)

George R. R. Martin Wanted More 'Game of Thrones'



> David and Dan have been saying for like five seasons that seven seasons is all they would go,” the “Game of Thrones” author continued. “We got them to go to eight but not any more than that. There was a period like five years ago when they were saying seven seasons and I was saying 10 seasons and they won, they’re the ones actually working on it.


----------



## hawkeyefan (May 14, 2019)

I mean....I’m don’t typically criticize GRRM for taking so long with the books....but I can’t really blame anyone who doesn’t take his advice to increase the length of their series....


----------



## Zardnaar (May 14, 2019)

Ralif Redhammer said:


> This. It's possible to enjoy something and still be critical of it. There are parts of Game of Thrones that I think could be done better, but I still love the show.
> 
> Hatewatching only feeds fandom toxicity.




Quality didn't fall off a cliff until this season mostly from the 3rd episode. By then you have 3 episode left after watching  for 8 years so may as well finish it 

 The difference is even the casuals are wtf. YouTube is overwhelmingly negative BBC gave the episode 2/5 and workmates also don't like it.

 Episode 1 was typical first episode, 2 was really good and then bleah.


----------



## Mallus (May 15, 2019)

Sadras said:


> This is the most character development we have  ever seen on the Night King



The Night King isn’t really a character, tho. Why expect additional development or point-of-view from him at this late stage? The Night King is a supernatural foil for the human evil in the series.

edit: he’s also anthropomorphized climate change!


----------



## Maxperson (May 15, 2019)

hawkeyefan said:


> I said that the portrayal of the scorpion use could have been handled better. The angles could have been clearer or a line of dialogue could have been added to help clarify what was happening.




The angles were irrelevant.  The problems are that you simply cannot turn those things fast enough to hit fast moving targets, while bobbing up and down in an ocean, and at a distance that is too far away to reach the dragons.  Also, slow moving ships cannot get out and into position before being seen by flyers looking at the island.


----------



## Kramodlog (May 15, 2019)

I love the end of this series. It gives what people want (murder as justice) and yet they are not satisfied. Dany has been torturing, burning and crucifying people for years. And fans have been cheering on. Desiring those murders. Cause they didn't have a problem with murder as justice. People cheer for dictators, murderous or not, all the time. Like in _Batman: The Dark Knight_. They cheer for a vigilante who builds a surveillance state. 

The series still suck because it was rushed, and this is why people will take no lesson from Dany's murderous rage (it is what dictators do, so stop cheering for them). But there is a lesson here. Murderous is not the solution. Stop asking and cheering for it.


----------



## Zardnaar (May 15, 2019)

Those scorpions were bigger than anything IRL. Max range IRL is around 400 metres, effective range about half of that. 
 You couldn't really use siege weapons to sink ships reliably before gunpowder. It's why they used boarding and Rams.

 I don't expect a massive amount of realism in shows like GoT, but they keep doing idiotic stuff like marching the Golden Company outside the city walls. 

 I suppose you might do that if you think you can win or have no hope of a relief army.  Besieging a city was just as dangerous to the attackers as defenders though.

 They did the same thing with the Dothraki. Supposed to be the best light cavalry in the world and they derp charge them. 

 There's plenty of military bunglers IRL though so yeah. I guess they were going for cool visuals or something.


----------



## hawkeyefan (May 15, 2019)

Maxperson said:


> The angles were irrelevant.  The problems are that you simply cannot turn those things fast enough to hit fast moving targets, while bobbing up and down in an ocean, and at a distance that is too far away to reach the dragons.  Also, slow moving ships cannot get out and into position before being seen by flyers looking at the island.




You know the range for ballistae in a fictional world, huh? And how likely it would be for one to hit a moving target? And who says the ships are slow moving?

I get it if it didn’t work for you. I wasn’t crazy about how the scene where Rhaegon was killed either. But not because it was implausible....more that it was poorly presented.


----------



## Maxperson (May 15, 2019)

hawkeyefan said:


> You know the range for ballistae in a fictional world, huh?




About 1200 yards.  It wasn't accurate to that range, though.



> And how likely it would be for one to hit a moving target?




Next to impossible.  It's "next to impossible," because they might somehow win the lottery and sling a one in a million shot.  4 of them?  Not a chance.



> And who says the ships are slow moving?




Both history and GoT where we see slow moving ships.



> I get it if it didn’t work for you. I wasn’t crazy about how the scene where Rhaegon was killed either. But not because it was implausible....more that it was poorly presented.




It didn't work for precisely because of how implausible it was.  If they had a scorpion hiding in the trees near where she lands and shot her dragon when it landed, that would have been plausible, despite how hard it would have been to get the scorpion there and hidden.  There were ways to kill off the dragon that were possible, and they didn't go with one.

Don't get me wrong.  Despite parts of piss poor writing, I've enjoyed every episode except for number 3, which I didn't see despite watching it.  I'm just going to call out the poor parts for what they are and not excuse them.


----------



## Zardnaar (May 15, 2019)

hawkeyefan said:


> You know the range for ballistae in a fictional world, huh? And how likely it would be for one to hit a moving target? And who says the ships are slow moving?
> 
> I get it if it didn’t work for you. I wasn’t crazy about how the scene where Rhaegon was killed either. But not because it was implausible....more that it was poorly presented.




AA fire in WW2 with exploding shells wasn't that effective and relied on lots of flak. 

 Shooting a Dragon down in the air at hundreds of metres range is fairly implausible, and shots at that range with military rifles is difficult for the average soldier through to WW2 (it's why the Germans invented the MP44).


----------



## Tonguez (May 15, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Shooting a Dragon down in the air at hundreds of metres range is fairly implausible




Read that sentence again slowly and realise you are discussing DRAGONS


----------



## hawkeyefan (May 15, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Shooting a Dragon down in the air at hundreds of metres range is fairly implausible




Let me ask you....is it more implausible than the dragon?


----------



## Zardnaar (May 15, 2019)

hawkeyefan said:


> Let me ask you....is it more implausible than the dragon?




Dragons make sense in the context of their world. 

 Dragons aren't invincible, see season 6 iirc but it's jarring to see one shot down and then in the next episode they can't hit one to literally save their lives. 

 More of a pacing issue, problem they have had since season 7.


----------



## Maxperson (May 15, 2019)

Tonguez said:


> Read that sentence again slowly and realise you are discussing DRAGONS




That's not even relevant.  When you have a fantasy show, the additional fantasy elements like dragons and magic are accepted as making sense for the genre.  The same cannot be said for mundane items that correspond to the real world.  Just because a show has dragons, does not mean that someone is going to just accept that a normal arrow fired from a normal bow can make several right turns in the air on the way to the target.  

Your argument is specious at best.


----------



## hawkeyefan (May 15, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Dragons make sense in the context of their world.
> 
> Dragons aren't invincible, see season 6 iirc but it's jarring to see one shot down and then in the next episode they can't hit one to literally save their lives.
> 
> More of a pacing issue, problem they have had since season 7.




Sure dragons make sense in the fictional context. And so would weapons designed to combat dragons.

Especially when those weapons are designed by a mad scientist capable of creating flesh golems and with the full resources of the crown in a world where extraordinary materials exist.


----------



## Zardnaar (May 15, 2019)

hawkeyefan said:


> Sure dragons make sense in the fictional context. And so would weapons designed to combat dragons.
> 
> Especially when those weapons are designed by a mad scientist capable of creating flesh golems and with the full resources of the crown in a world where extraordinary materials exist.




As I said it was the execution of everything. Personally I would have had Dany steamroll Cersei a the end of season 7,  and have season 8 focus on the Night King who over runs the North and makes it to Kings Landing.


----------



## Sadras (May 15, 2019)

Mallus said:


> The Night King isn’t really a character, tho. Why expect additional development or point-of-view from him at this late stage? The Night King is a supernatural foil for the human evil in the series.
> 
> edit: he’s also anthropomorphized climate change!




That is on me, I should have maybe included an emoji in my tongue-and-cheek post.


----------



## Sadras (May 15, 2019)

Tonguez said:


> Read that sentence again slowly and realise you are discussing DRAGONS




I do not understand this line of argument which gets repeated in this and other threads. 
Just because a supernatural creature exists in the story doesn't mean the rest of reality/believability within the show needs to become unhinged.


----------



## Sadras (May 15, 2019)

Kramodlog said:


> I love the end of this series. It gives what people want (murder as justice) and yet they are not satisfied. Dany has been torturing, burning and crucifying people for years. And fans have been cheering on. Desiring those murders. Cause they didn't have a problem with murder as justice. People cheer for dictators, murderous or not, all the time. Like in _Batman: The Dark Knight_. They cheer for a vigilante who builds a surveillance state.
> 
> The series still suck because it was rushed, and this is why people will take no lesson from Dany's murderous rage (it is what dictators do, so stop cheering for them). But there is a lesson here. Murderous is not the solution. Stop asking and cheering for it.




If Batman actually ended the Joker the 2nd, 3rd, xth time he caught him, one might see a significant decrease in victims every time the super-villain escapes from the asylum. Not buying this 'let live' crap.

I'm pretty sure everyone was satisfied with the killing of Ramsay and Joffrey.


----------



## Imaculata (May 15, 2019)

Kramodlog said:


> The series still suck because it was rushed, and this is why people will take no lesson from Dany's murderous rage (it is what dictators do, so stop cheering for them). But there is a lesson here. Murderous is not the solution. Stop asking and cheering for it.




If there is anything to be learned here, it is how important George RR Martin's writing was to the success of the show... without that backbone, the show stumbles towards the finish line in a hurry.


----------



## Zardnaar (May 15, 2019)

Sadras said:


> If Batman actually ended the Joker the 2nd, 3rd, xth time he caught him, one might see a significant decrease in victims every time the super-villain escapes from the asylum. Not buying this 'let live' crap.
> 
> I'm pretty sure everyone was satisfied with the killing of Ramsay and Joffrey.




I liked having Jeffrey around and loved to hate him. Ramsay was just cartoon evil, and what he did to Sansa wasn't in the books and wasn't needed, didn't do anything to advance the plot etc. Joffrey and Tywin being killed was around where the show started heading down hill imho.

 What made Jeffrey great was probably his age.


----------



## Sadras (May 15, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> I liked having Jeffrey around and loved to hate him. Ramsay was just cartoon evil, and what he did to Sansa wasn't in the books and wasn't needed, didn't do anything to advance the plot etc. Joffrey and Tywin being killed was around where the show started heading down hill imho.
> 
> What made Jeffrey great was probably his age.




You're discussing something else entirely.


----------



## Zardnaar (May 15, 2019)

Maybe I liked having Joffrey around and missed him. He was a better villain than his replacements Ramsey and Euron in the secondary villain role.


----------



## Imaculata (May 15, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> I liked having Joffrey around and loved to hate him. Ramsay was just cartoon evil, and what he did to Sansa wasn't in the books and wasn't needed, didn't do anything to advance the plot etc. Joffrey and Tywin being killed was around where the show started heading down hill imho.
> 
> What made Joffrey great was probably his age.




Ramsay's book counter part is every bit as evil as the one on the show. But some of his acts were switched from a character not featured on the show, to one that is; Sansa. 
The show indeed struggles a lot around season 5. The book on which it is based, Feast for Crows, struggles about just as much (although they also throw in some Dance with Dragons). There's a lot of aimless floundering about in Dorne with new characters that no one really cares about, and the main cast is mostly abscent. And the ironborne aren't very interesting either, though I feel the show did both a disservice.


----------



## Tonguez (May 15, 2019)

Sadras said:


> I do not understand this line of argument which gets repeated in this and other threads.
> Just because a supernatural creature exists in the story doesn't mean the rest of reality/believability within the show needs to become unhinged.




When I saw the scorpions used by Euron to slay the dragon I was reminded of video games like Spartan Total War where they are essentially reskinned Modern Ackacks, so my brain switched in to video game logic for the episode. So although a departure from how the show has previously presented, it is no less plausible than the idea of a woman riding a dragon being able to dodge those same ballista bolts. 
Fantasy worlds do need their own internal consistency but plausibility needs to be given a very long leash


----------



## Kramodlog (May 15, 2019)

Sadras said:


> I'm pretty sure everyone was satisfied with the killing of Ramsay and Joffrey.




Satisfying has nothing to do with morality. People cheering for immoral behavior open the door to what Dany did. Mass murder. That is the true face of a despote who thinks they have sovereignty over people's lives. As long as people cheer immoral behavior and despote, immoral behavior will continue and despote will rule. They shouldn't be surprised.

Of course, no person will be learn by the masses today. Your cheering at murder is a testament to that.


----------



## Kramodlog (May 15, 2019)

Imaculata said:


> If there is anything to be learned here, it is how important George RR Martin's writing was to the success of the show... without that backbone, the show stumbles towards the finish line in a hurry.




Dany will still be a murderous despote on the books.


----------



## Imaculata (May 15, 2019)

Tonguez said:


> When I saw the scorpions used by Euron to slay the dragon I was reminded of video games like Spartan Total War where they are essentially reskinned Modern Ackacks, so my brain switched in to video game logic for the episode. So although a departure from how the show has previously presented, it is no less plausible than the idea of a woman riding a dragon being able to dodge those same ballista bolts.
> Fantasy worlds do need their own internal consistency but plausibility needs to be given a very long leash




They also need to be consistent. We have been shown how accurate or inaccurate the Scorpion is three or four times in the show (one of which was the episode before). And it is always as accurate as the plot requires at that time, which means not consistent at all.


----------



## Zardnaar (May 15, 2019)

Imaculata said:


> Ramsay's book counter part is every bit as evil as the one on the show. But some of his acts were switched from a character not featured on the show, to one that is; Sansa.
> The show indeed struggles a lot around season 5. The book on which it is based, Feast for Crows, struggles about just as much (although they also throw in some Dance with Dragons). There's a lot of aimless floundering about in Dorne with new characters that no one really cares about, and the main cast is mostly abscent. And the ironborne aren't very interesting either, though I feel the show did both a disservice.




I have read the books although it has been a while.


----------



## Sadras (May 15, 2019)

Kramodlog said:


> Satisfying has nothing to do with morality. People cheering for immoral behavior open the door to what Dany did. Mass murder. That is the true face of a despote who thinks they have sovereignty over people's lives. As long as people cheer immoral behavior and despote, immoral behavior will continue and despote will rule. They shouldn't be surprised.
> 
> Of course, no person will be learn by the masses today. Your cheering at murder is a testament to that.




To be clear, I'm not condoning mass murder, but neither am I supporting your stance that all killing is bad or immoral.


----------



## Sadras (May 15, 2019)

Tonguez said:


> When I saw the scorpions used by Euron to slay the dragon I was reminded of video games like Spartan Total War where they are essentially reskinned Modern Ackacks, so my brain switched in to video game logic for the episode. So although a departure from how the show has previously presented, it is no less plausible than the idea of a woman riding a dragon being able to dodge those same ballista bolts.
> Fantasy worlds do need their own internal consistency but plausibility needs to be given a very long leash




I guess the length of the leash is where disagreement occurs. For me a departure of what has previously been presented causes the biggest issue.


----------



## Maxperson (May 15, 2019)

Sadras said:


> That is on me, I should have maybe included an emoji in my tongue-and-cheek post.




Nah.  It was pretty clear that it was a joke.


----------



## Maxperson (May 15, 2019)

Tonguez said:


> When I saw the scorpions used by Euron to slay the dragon I was reminded of video games like Spartan Total War where they are essentially reskinned Modern Ackacks, so my brain switched in to video game logic for the episode. So although a departure from how the show has previously presented, it is no less plausible than the idea of a woman riding a dragon being able to dodge those same ballista bolts.
> Fantasy worlds do need their own internal consistency but plausibility needs to be given a very long leash




It doesn't need that long of a leash, and if you have to go into video game mode to watch a T.V. show, that show has failed.  It's not a video game.


----------



## Maxperson (May 15, 2019)

Kramodlog said:


> Satisfying has nothing to do with morality. People cheering for immoral behavior open the door to what Dany did. Mass murder. That is the true face of a despote who thinks they have sovereignty over people's lives. As long as people cheer immoral behavior and despote, immoral behavior will continue and despote will rule. They shouldn't be surprised.
> 
> Of course, no person will be learn by the masses today. Your cheering at murder is a testament to that.




I don't remember the people cheering at immoral behavior.  I do remember them cheering at the punishment of immoral behavior, though.  They cheered when the traitor Ned Stark was beheaded.  It wasn't their fault they were lied to about what he did.  They believed he was immoral and cheered appropriately.  They also cheered when the immoral Queen Cersei walked the walk of shame, also punishment of immoral behavior.

What immoral behavior did they cheer?


----------



## Sadras (May 15, 2019)

hawkeyefan said:


> I'm not sure, really. I'd have to see it to know it. But I think it would be something that was very *concretely contradictory* rather than just poorly presented.




Even this (bolded section) can be subjective - one can but refer to the plethora of online arguments regarding the Dragon Queen and her descent into Madness.



> That's fine. You are absolutely entitled to your opinion. I expect I even share some of your opinions about the show. But may I ask, if the show has let you down so much, why do you still watch?




This might help explain why I still watch it. Particularly the quote from Jester David.



> I try to temper my expectations with the realities of production of a show on this scale, and with trying to complete the story in the amount of episodes that remain. I'd have preferred a few more episodes so that things don't feel so rushed, but that was not to be. We can guess as to why, but likely our guesses will fall far short of the complexity that goes into a film production of this scope. "Just make more episodes" is a pretty easy thing to demand, and quite another to actually produce.




Well they could have reduced or altogether eliminated Euron/Cersei, Arya stumbling around KL, Euron/Jaime, Tyrion/Varis cock jokes and a few other scenes to actually assist with the main storyline...  



> I do think that there's a strange phenomenon that happens with fans sometimes where they create expectations that will simply never be reached. And then very often what happens is that valid criticism ("the pacing of later seasons seems a bit too fast") is replaced by insult ("Dumb & Dumber have brought this on themselves"). You can see it in this thread, and you can see much more of it elsewhere online.




Hmmm doesn't that happen everywhere (i.e. politics comes to mind) and why can you not have both - valid criticism with insult.


----------



## lowkey13 (May 15, 2019)

*Deleted by user*


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## Kramodlog (May 15, 2019)

Maxperson said:


> I don't remember the people cheering at immoral behavior.  I do remember them cheering at the punishment of immoral behavior, though.  They cheered when the traitor Ned Stark was beheaded.  It wasn't their fault they were lied to about what he did.  They believed he was immoral and cheered appropriately.  They also cheered when the immoral Queen Cersei walked the walk of shame, also punishment of immoral behavior.
> 
> What immoral behavior did they cheer?




I'm talking about the audience of the show. They cheered when Dany killed people. They cheered mass murder and torture by a despote. It should be a lesson. Despotes are poopie. We should condamn them. The same people who cheered when Dany commited mass murder on Essos are now shocked she commits mass murder on Westeros. Shame on them for their double standards and their support of murderous despotes. I hope they learn something. 

We should stop cheering at characters who serve murder as a form of justice. Murderers are bad people.


----------



## Kramodlog (May 15, 2019)

Sadras said:


> To be clear, I'm not condoning mass murder, but neither am I supporting your stance that all killing is bad or immoral.




I'm sure you do not find murder and killing to be immoral. This is how we get wars, terrorism, torture, police abuse, etc. People find human death and suffering acceptable when its not them who are affected by it.


----------



## Imaculata (May 15, 2019)

Kramodlog said:


> Dany will still be a murderous despot in the books.




Oh, almost guaranteed. But I think George RR Martin will make the transition a bit more smooth, character motivated and logical, instead of the abrupt character assassination that we got this season... that is, if he ever finishes Winds of Winter and then some more books... which seems unlikely.

It's not Dany's turn that I have a problem with. It is how it is presented in the show, which made little sense. Though I think this is an issue that could have easily been remedied in the editing room (just like Euron's magical fleet appearing out of nowhere).


----------



## MarkB (May 15, 2019)

Kramodlog said:


> I'm sure you do not find murder and killing to be immoral. This is how we get wars, terrorism, torture, police abuse, etc. People find human death and suffering acceptable when its not them who are affected by it.




Bear in mind that this is a work of fiction. It's not just us who aren't the ones getting murdered - literally _nobody_ is.


----------



## hawkeyefan (May 15, 2019)

Sadras said:


> Even this (bolded section) can be subjective - one can but refer to the plethora of online arguments regarding the Dragon Queen and her descent into Madness.




Oh it's all certainly subjective. Each of us will have our own way of viewing it. I think for me, something ringing false would be more about the content. It would have to seem more contradictory than someone hitting a dragon with ballistae one day, and then missing the next, when different conditions apply in each case. As I said, I think the first scene could have been constructed a bit more clearly. But to me, the issue is in the presentation more than the content. 




Sadras said:


> This might help explain why I still watch it. Particularly the quote from Jester David.




Okay. I don't think I tend to view things that way. I mean, I like all kinds of things, and consider myself a fan of them. But I don't know if I identify with them so strongly that it messes with my perception of who I am if I don't like something. That seems bizarre to me.

As a comic fan I've suffered through my fair share of awful stories out of some sense of loyalty to the characters or whatever.....and I long ago learned that it's not worth it. There is too much other stuff to enjoy and ways to spend time to waste on stuff I don't actually enjoy. 

I suppose in this case, given how close it is to the end, I can kind of understand people watching despite not enjoying, but it still seems odd. 




Sadras said:


> Well they could have reduced or altogether eliminated Euron/Cersei, Arya stumbling around KL, Euron/Jaime, Tyrion/Varis cock jokes and a few other scenes to actually assist with the main storyline...




Maybe. I actually like a lot of the personal stuff and character interactions just as much as the plot stuff, to be honest. That's the stuff that gives the action scenes context. Episode 2 of this season being a good example.....it was nothing but character stuff, and it was great. 



Sadras said:


> Hmmm doesn't that happen everywhere (i.e. politics comes to mind) and why can you not have both - valid criticism with insult.




I'm sure it does. 

Wouldn't it be better if it didn't?


----------



## lowkey13 (May 15, 2019)

*Deleted by user*


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## Sadras (May 16, 2019)

Kramodlog said:


> I'm sure you do not find murder and killing to be immoral. This is how we get wars, terrorism, torture, police abuse, etc. People find human death and suffering acceptable when its not them who are affected by it.




That is a bit of a stretch but ok exaggeration is your game.


----------



## Sadras (May 16, 2019)

hawkeyefan said:


> Oh it's all certainly subjective. Each of us will have our own way of viewing it. I think for me, something ringing false would be more about the content. It would have to seem more contradictory than someone hitting a dragon with ballistae one day, and then missing the next, when different conditions apply in each case. As I said, I think the first scene could have been constructed a bit more clearly. But to me, the issue is in the presentation more than the content.




It isn't bad CGI or poorly depicted props - they introduced content, i.e. the scorpion with its deadly accuracy, range and force and how quickly they are able to load. But anyways I doubt we will change each other's minds on this.



> Okay. I don't think I tend to view things that way. I mean, I like all kinds of things, and consider myself a fan of them. But I don't know if I identify with them so strongly that it messes with my perception of who I am if I don't like something. That seems bizarre to me.




It is more about we have invested much time and effort in the show, the setting and the mythos - so we want to like it. But that doesn't mean we won't call out bull**** when we see it. The showrunners don't just get a free pass.



> Maybe. I actually like a lot of the personal stuff and character interactions just as much as the plot stuff, to be honest. That's the stuff that gives the action scenes context. Episode 2 of this season being a good example.....it was nothing but character stuff, and it was great.




I very much telegraphed specific scenes in my post with specific characters (Euron) or silly D&D jokes. Those are nothing like the personal stuff of old. 




> I'm sure it does.
> 
> Wouldn't it be better if it didn't?




Sure, etiquette is always better, but you also need to understand that ppl feel aggrieved at the way D&D have handled the source material/storyline given their investment (monetary, time and otherwise). Epithets are bound to occur. I'm wondering if this reservation from you exists in other areas (sport, politics...etc) because I find it very strange to get all defensive about some silly name-calling of the showrunners, presumably people you have never met or have any personal connection with.


----------



## Zardnaar (May 16, 2019)

Can't blame any of the actors they did their jobs and mostly did it well. 

 Started watching season one and yeah it went downhill a bit but was still good. It's disappointment, feels like Phantom Menace 2.0. 

 They took one of the greatest shows ever and dropped the ball on it.


----------



## Maxperson (May 16, 2019)

Kramodlog said:


> I'm talking about the audience of the show. They cheered when Dany killed people. They cheered mass murder and torture by a despote. It should be a lesson. Despotes are poopie. We should condamn them. The same people who cheered when Dany commited mass murder on Essos are now shocked she commits mass murder on Westeros. Shame on them for their double standards and their support of murderous despotes. I hope they learn something.
> 
> We should stop cheering at characters who serve murder as a form of justice. Murderers are bad people.




Nobody cheered mass murder(at least not pertaining to Game of Thrones).  It's a show.  It's all pretend.  And nobody should be condemned for cheering something pretend on TV.


----------



## lowkey13 (May 16, 2019)

*Deleted by user*


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## Mallus (May 16, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> NOBODY EXPECTS THE EUROTRASH INQUISITION!
> 
> 
> Oh, Euron, you off-brand Jack Sparrow, I will miss you.



Your Euron dis posts are on fire!


----------



## Mallus (May 16, 2019)

Sadras said:


> That is on me, I should have maybe included an emoji in my tongue-and-cheek post.



Nah, man, I share the blame. My sarcasm detector must be on the fritz...


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## lowkey13 (May 16, 2019)

*Deleted by user*


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (May 16, 2019)

Gladius Legis said:


> Well, Dumb & Dumber brought that on themselves. HBO wanted Season 8 to have more episodes, but Dumb & Dumber refused.




This is a common claim I see, but who is better qualified how much story they have to tell than the ones that write the story?
If they said they had something for 6 episodes, why would you assume that if they had been given more they would have written anything better, and not just made it more boring?


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## Gladius Legis (May 16, 2019)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> This is a common claim I see, but who is better qualified how much story they have to tell than the ones that write the story?
> If they said they had something for 6 episodes, why would you assume that if they had been given more they would have written anything better, and not just made it more boring?




I wouldn't assume that because it's Dumb & Dumber and their writing has been bad since Season 5, when the series largely passed the books. But the biggest source of fatal flaws in this particular season is that it's rushed and left no room for character development to lead into its most "shocking" moments.


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## Maxperson (May 16, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> When I watch _Jaws_, I root for the shark.
> 
> COME AT ME!




Strange.  When I watch Jaws, I root for 007.  To each his own I suppose.


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## Zardnaar (May 16, 2019)

Season 5 looks better by comparison now. Season 6 is probably the best one in the second half of the show. Season 7 was when it started to feel rushed.

 If you watch the earlier ones it's really a series of short cutscenes of around  5 or 6 minutes.  That was enough to cover the plot and character development.

 Leaves episode 2 as the peak of this season IMHO.


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## Kramodlog (May 17, 2019)

MarkB said:


> Bear in mind that this is a work of fiction. It's not just us who aren't the ones getting murdered - literally _nobody_ is.



And yet some People are upset Dany burn some people. It is like I'm talking to them.


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## MarkB (May 17, 2019)

Kramodlog said:


> And yet some People are upset Dany burn some people. It is like I'm talking to them.




And ascribing real-world consequences to their opinions about fictional people.


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## Kramodlog (May 17, 2019)

Maxperson said:


> Nobody cheered mass murder(at least not pertaining to Game of Thrones).



People cheered at Dany's mass crucifixions. True story.



> It's a show.  It's all pretend.  And nobody should be condemned for cheering something pretend on TV.



It’s a reflection of people's values and the values of our societies. Nobody cheered the rape of Sansa. Some people cheered Dany's mass crucifixions, murders by fire or by starvation. It means that in our societies it is not morally acceptable to publically condomn rape (even if some guys do praise it in some dark corner of the internet), but that praising murder is ok. And it is the case because people are ok with murder, as Sadras said so himself in this thread. Well, this what being ok with murder by a politician really means.

I like that the show gives a realistic (sort-ish) portrait of a murderous despot and how it confronts the audience with it bloodlust and morality. It is heavy handed cause the writing sucks for the TV show but it does seem to be Martin's goal.


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## Kramodlog (May 17, 2019)

MarkB said:


> And ascribing real-world consequences to their opinions about fictional people.




Hello strawman.


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## Maxperson (May 17, 2019)

Kramodlog said:


> People cheered at Dany's mass crucifixions. True story.




None of those were real.  True story.



> It’s a reflection of people's values and the values of our societies. Nobody cheered the rape of Sansa. Some people cheered Dany's mass crucifixions, murders by fire or by starvation. It means that in our societies it is not morally acceptable to publically condomn rape (even if some guys do praise it in some dark corner of the internet), but that praising murder is ok. And it is the case because people are ok with murder, as Sadras said so himself in this thread. Well, this what being ok with murder by a politician really means.




Cheering fiction in no way reflects any true value of society.  Cheering fictional crucifixions doesn't in any way indicate that someone would cheer a real one.  You are comparing apples and oranges, and it just doesn't work.


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## Mort (May 17, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> Am I praising him, or insulting him?
> 
> I don't even know any more!!!!!!




The funniest name for Euron I've seen so far: The drunken cockroach of Westeros.


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## Kramodlog (May 17, 2019)

Maxperson said:


> None of those were real.  True story.



So why do people are calling Dany's killing of the fake people of King's Landing immoral? When she committed mass murder before? She has been a murderous despot for quite some time now. With audiences cheering.

The answer is simple. In real life, like in fiction, people are ok with killing people who aren't of their perceived "tribes". Now audiences are shocked that a mass murderer killed people of the "right tribe". Thing is, despots kill people of the "right tribe" more than people of the "naughty tribes". But clearly the lesson isn't learn. All disatisfaction is put on bad writting instead of people doing some soul searching and asking themselves if they do not favor immoral behavior and authoritarianism.

My only consolation is that I'll get to say "I told you so". If all goes wrong of course.


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## lowkey13 (May 17, 2019)

*Deleted by user*


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## MarkB (May 17, 2019)

Kramodlog said:


> Hello strawman.






Kramodlog said:


> So why do people are calling Dany's killing of the fake people of King's Landing immoral? When she committed mass murder before? She has been a murderous despot for quite some time now. With audiences cheering.
> 
> The answer is simple. In real life, like in fiction, people are ok with killing people who aren't of their perceived "tribes". Now audiences are shocked that a mass murderer killed people of the "right tribe". Thing is, despots kill people of the "right tribe" more than people of the "naughty tribes". But clearly the lesson isn't learn. All disatisfaction is put on bad writting instead of people doing some soul searching and asking themselves if they do not favor immoral behavior and authoritarianism.
> 
> My only consolation is that I'll get to say "I told you so". If all goes wrong of course.




Hmm.


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## Zardnaar (May 17, 2019)

Remake petition just under 900k.


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## jonesy (May 19, 2019)

[video=youtube;hI-vI2nSSbs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hI-vI2nSSbs[/video]


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## Maxperson (May 19, 2019)

Kramodlog said:


> So why do people are calling Dany's killing of the fake people of King's Landing immoral?




Because people are often wrong.



> When she committed mass murder before?




She has never committed mass murder.  She has pretended to on T.V., though.



> The answer is simple. In real life, like in fiction, people are ok with killing people who aren't of their perceived "tribes".




The answer is simple, and it has nothing whatsover to do with real life.  The answer is because T.V. is pretend and it's fun.



> My only consolation is that I'll get to say "I told you so". If all goes wrong of course.




Dude.  I don't know where you've been, but it has already gone wrong and it had nothing to do with cheering pretend killing.


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## Kramodlog (May 20, 2019)

Maxperson said:


> She has never committed mass murder.



You've never watched Games of Thrones it seems. It explains a lot. 



> I don't know where you've been, but it has already gone wrong and it had nothing to do with cheering pretend killing.



So you''d be ok with people cheering the pretend rape of Sansa? That tells me a lot about who you are.

That is pretend doesn't matter. It is just moving the goal post. People are shocked by immoral behavior, when they cheered for the same immoral behavior a few seasons ago. It is a reflection of their moral values. MArtin tried to show that, but it is going over your head. No lesson is learn what so ever.


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## Kramodlog (May 20, 2019)

MarkB said:


> Hmm.




That is not a counter argument. It is a sound.


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## Maxperson (May 20, 2019)

Kramodlog said:


> So you''d be ok with people cheering the pretend rape of Sansa? That tells me a lot about who you are.




If you think you can tell anything about me based on how I look at pretend, you're deluding yourself.  



> That is pretend doesn't matter. It is just moving the goal post. People are shocked by immoral behavior, when they cheered for the same immoral behavior a few seasons ago. It is a reflection of their moral values. MArtin tried to show that, but it is going over your head. No lesson is learn what so ever.




If you really can't tell the difference between reality and pretend...


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## Zardnaar (May 20, 2019)

Dany losing it and destroying the red keep (Innocents and all) makes sense. Her turn to full on nutter was handled poorly.


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## Sadras (May 20, 2019)

All I'm saying is things would have played out a lot differently if StoneMountain64 was the officer in charge of the Golden Company


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## Joker (May 20, 2019)

Sadras said:


> All I'm saying is things would have played out a lot differently if StoneMountain64 was the officer in charge of the Golden Company




I'll see your StoneMountain64 and raise you the Neebs Gaming crew.


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## Numidius (May 24, 2019)

Apparently the two showrunners don't like the number "3", so we never got a third Targaryen mounting the third dragon. Fair enough, but why not having Jon Snow ride Rhaegal above KL trying to stop the fury of Daenerys? That would have been cool, also causing havoc in the city more as a collateral damage than unilateral assault. 
Drogon kills Rhaegal, then, in last episode, Jon kills Daenerys as seen on TV?
 or any other random ending...


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## Sadras (May 24, 2019)

Numidius said:


> Apparently the two showrunners don't like the number "3", so we never got a third Targaryen mounting the third dragon. Fair enough, but why not having Jon Snow ride Rhaegal above KL trying to stop the fury of Daenerys? That would have been cool, also causing havoc in the city more as a collateral damage than unilateral assault.
> Drogon kills Rhaegal, then, in last episode, Jon kills Daenerys as seen on TV?
> or any other random ending...




Because they kind of forgot how to write...


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## Numidius (May 24, 2019)

Sadras said:


> Because they kind of forgot how to write...



Some blame also the budget not enough for two dragons


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## Sadras (May 24, 2019)

Numidius said:


> Some blame also the budget not enough for two dragons




I do not buy that. They were offered tons of cash and loads more episodes by HBO.
They also keep spewing the line about how expensive it is to create/shoot Ghost and to have dogs behave a certain way.
Maybe they could have spoken to the guys who managed the dogs in John Wick Parabellum.

Given the rest of the show, I'd put it down to lazy writing.


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## Numidius (May 24, 2019)

[MENTION=6688277]Sadras[/MENTION], yeah me too


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## Zardnaar (May 24, 2019)

Fur,hair  and grass cost a lot to animate. They probably preferred spending the money on other effects.


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## Sadras (May 24, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Fur,hair  and grass cost a lot to animate. They probably preferred spending the money on other effects.




They paid for Jaime and Cersei in the final episode when they could have just used the golden hand to signify they were dead within the rubble.

Although they did save on the makeup costs having the crushing debris not matter, and there was also only one layer of bricks so that was nice that Tyrion never had to _dig_ very far.


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