# Why have all the fanesy books i've read on recommendation from enworld sucked?



## Olive (Jan 9, 2003)

Not eactly a troll...

but i read lieber's lankhmar stuff... and thought it was boring as all hell (except for the story where Fafhrd turns into a god, that was really good).

Ir ead the first two Black Company books, and found them almost totally uninteresting.

i reafd vance, and found the characters to be cardboard cutouts (the spell names were cool. that was about it).

so what do these all suck when you lot rave about them so much?

oh yeah, read the first 5 Wheel of time... first one is good, second ok by the third i was wondering if every woman in the world does fold her arms under her breasts when she's angry... only read till five because i kinda wnated to see if it got interesting again...

i do like some fantasy (Ursela LeGuin, mostly robin hobb... tolkein), but these ones are crap.


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## EricNoah (Jan 9, 2003)

Olive said:
			
		

> *Not eactly a troll...
> 
> *snip*
> 
> ...




Wild guess, but maybe it's because different people like different things?

I have an idea ... why don't you tell us what you have read and DID like.  That might help bring out some recommendations from people who liked similar things.


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## Olive (Jan 9, 2003)

*Re: Re: Why have all the fanesy books i've read on recommendation from enworld sucked?*



			
				EricNoah said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Wild guess, but maybe it's because different people like different things?
> 
> I have an idea ... why don't you tell us what you have read and DID like.  That might help bring out some recommendations from people who liked similar things. *




well, yes of course. sorry, I really don't want to come across as 'you're a moron if you like these books', just to see if people with similar tastes are out there.

ok:
i like the original dragonlance books, but this could just be that i liked them when i was 11.

i like LotR

I like the first three Sparrowhawk/Earthsea books

I like Robin Hobb's world, but find her characters petulant and irritating.

magician by fiest was good too.

in sci-fi, i like Iain M. Banks a whole lot. I like most of Ursala LeGuin's stuff. I recently read Ian McCloed's The Star Fraction and enjoyed that tho it wasn't super well writen.

I mostly read non-genre fiction, but i like reading fantastic stuff too.My favourite non-genre writers would probably be
George Orwell
Iain Banks
and Paul Beaty, but thats all that comes to mind right now...

does that help?


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## EricNoah (Jan 9, 2003)

Maybe what you need is Amazon.com or something similar.  You know, how they say "people who liked this book liked books x, y, and z."  Though that rarely works for me.  I never know what dreck might tickly my fancy, or what great book just turns me off or doesn't hook me right away.  

Did you read George Martin?  A lot of people 'round here swear by his current series.  Though evidently that's no guarantee.


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## Crothian (Jan 9, 2003)

Okay, you liked Magician by Fiest, how about any of his other books?  There might be like a dozen or so more all set in that world.  Magician is the first pair of books (Magican Apprentance and Magcian Master).

Mercedes Lackey has the Valdemar series.  It's more character driven then anything, but you should be able to find them at any library and they area fast read.  

Thieves World is great for some dark fanstasy short stories.  But some of them make the BoVD look like Disney.  

I'm now reading the Rose of the Prophit series by Hickman and Wies (the Dragonlance people).  It's more arabic fantasy, but is quite good.


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## Femerus the Gnecro (Jan 9, 2003)

Boy, that fourth Earthsea book really did suck didn't it?

As always, check out George R.R. Martin... he's three books into one of the best modern fantasy series, IMO (though the stuff with Daenerys (sp) really bores me to tears for some reason).

Lessee... Octavia Butler writes some great stuff with fantastical themes, though I guess she strictly falls under 'sci-fi.'  

Dune has its roots in fantasy in much the same way star wars does, if you're not hung up on the 'swords, no guns' version of fantasy literature.  

I'm a huge Wheel of Time fan myself, though I realize that it's very much an acquired taste.  I couldn't stand Jordan's Conan books though.  

Speaking of Conan, the original Conan books by Robert E. Howard are a bit of a guilty pleasure of mine, and extremely enjoyable to boot.  

Oh yes... Mary Stewart!  Her Merlin trilogy (I guess it's not a trilogy with the release of 'Wicked Day' a few years ago, but whatever) is FANTASTIC.  Definitely one of the series that got me into fantasy lit in the first place.  

How's that for a list of suggestions?

-F


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## Dr Midnight (Jan 9, 2003)

I know what you mean, I went through Elizabeth Haydon and Steven Brust on recommendation from these bastards until they pointed me to the aforementioned George R.R. Martin... a man I'd just like to run up and give a great big sloppy kiss to. Outstanding stuff. I've been buying his books for people who don't even read fantasy, as presents. 

A warning, though- it's not pretty. It's a gritty and intense plotline in a gritty and intense world played by gritty and intense characters. Ugly things happen. Good guys die, there is injustice, rape, and little to no sympathy for innocents or children. 

If you can get past that, though, let me tell you that it's been the richest reading of my life. 

Femerus- bored to tears by Dany?? She's my favorite in the whole series. Bran's my bored-by character.

-Doc Midnight: the "Nightfall" of George Martin books


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## John Crichton (Jan 9, 2003)

I've just started "A Game of Thrones" and it's quite good.  I'd recommend it so far.


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## jdavis (Jan 9, 2003)

I didn't care for many of the same books you didn't but I would never blame somebody for suggesting them, (I really like Jordan, but he is slipping). Trust me there is some pure crap out there, but every book is probably somebodies favorite no matter how bad somebody else thinks it is.

Try George Martin, he's real good.

I like L.E. Modesitt jr's  Recluse series (I might be in a small crowd there.)

Melanie Rawn's Exiles books are ok

Dave Eddings books are ok

Dennis L. McKiernan's books are very (very) derivative of Tolkein but they aren't  bad reads.

You could try this search engine for clips and reviews before you decide. I haven't used it alot but sometimes just reading a discription of what the book is about can help to decide.
http://books.ratatosk.org/


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## Capellan (Jan 9, 2003)

I'm going to break from tradition and on this thread and *not* recommend George R R Martin, because I suspect that if you dislike Robert Jordan (a sentiment I can wholly agree with) then you might not be Martin's biggest fan, either.

I'd suggest Tamora Pierce.  She writes fantasy novels for young adults.  I think you'll be pleasantly surprised by how good they are (far, far better than the Harry Potter novels, IMO).

Do you read Terry Pratchett?  He's not to everyone's taste, but those who like him (as I do) tend to _really_ like him.

You already read Iain Banks, so you've ticked off my third recommendation 

Samuel R Delaney is also very good.  And never underestimate the value of digging up a classic or three: H G Wells wrote quiteb a number of books that are well worth a read, for instance.


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## Capellan (Jan 9, 2003)

Femerus the Gnecro said:
			
		

> *Boy, that fourth Earthsea book really did suck didn't it?*




Gotta agree with you on that one 



			
				Femerus the Gnecro said:
			
		

> *I'm a huge Wheel of Time fan myself, though I realize that it's very much an acquired taste.*




My experience was actually 100% the opposite - liked it to start with, but gradually got more and more disenchanted (and eventually disgusted) with the series as a whole.



			
				Femerus the Gnecro said:
			
		

> *Oh yes... Mary Stewart!  Her Merlin trilogy (I guess it's not a trilogy with the release of 'Wicked Day' a few years ago, but whatever) is FANTASTIC.  Definitely one of the series that got me into fantasy lit in the first place.  *




'Wicked Day' is actually a separate chronology to the Merlin trilogy.  It's a damn fine novel, though, and well worth a read as a slightly different approach to the Arthurian legend.

Oh!  Another suggestion just occurred to me - Olive might like to try Morgan Llewellyn's books.  I have enjoyed Llewellyn's work in the past.


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## John Crichton (Jan 9, 2003)

I've mentioned it in a few other threads but Piers Anthony's *Incarnations of Immortality* was a great read.  He got an easy-flowing style and a good sense of humor in those books...


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## JRRNeiklot (Jan 9, 2003)

Here's a list of authors I like:

George R. R Martin
David Gemmell
Robert Jordan
David Gemmell
David Eddings
David Gemmell
Tad Williams
Did I mention David Gemmell?
Terry Brooks
David Farland
Terry Goodkind
C. S. Friedman
Paul Kidd

And many, many more that I can't think of right now.

If you don't like these guys, I am very, very sorry, for I have gotten YEARS of enjoyment out of the above authors that I wouldn't replace with anything - including sex!


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## King_Stannis (Jan 9, 2003)

Capellan said:
			
		

> *I'm going to break from tradition and on this thread and not recommend George R R Martin, because I suspect that if you dislike Robert Jordan (a sentiment I can wholly agree with) then you might not be Martin's biggest fan, either.
> *




And I'll respectfully disagree with that assessment. Different writing styles and very different stories. Jordan has built a wonderful fantasy world in a fairly traditional sense that, sadly, he has no idea how to end. His characters have fallen, sadly, into cliche. While that's not necessarily bad, the fact that they have overstayed their welcome by about 4-5 books makes it a problem.

Martin has a grippin story that strives more for realism than fantasy conventions - though fantasy conventions do exist in his story, they are just downplayed. Martin's characters and how they are portrayed are eons apart from Jordan and the way he presents his. Plus there is an endgame in sight - Martin wants 6 books - maybe 7.

Add me to the ones who recommend GRRM. The guy is simply a great writer. Not just a great fantasy writer.

You didn't like Leiber? That's too bad, he's sort of like Tolkien as far as being one of the pioneers of the genre.


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## Eben (Jan 9, 2003)

Martin is great.

But so are Vance, Leiber and Moorcock.

Don't care for Gemmel, Eddings or Weiss & Hickman.

It's all very personal, like Eric said.


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## Assenpfeffer (Jan 9, 2003)

Here’s my recommendations.  Even though I shouldn’t have to say this, please bear in mind that this is all my opinion.  In no particular order:

Robert Jordan:  I was a huge, huge fan until about book 6, in which not a damn thing was resolved or moved forward.  I am now convinced that Jordan is a money-grubbing hack padding his series out to make maximum cash.  Pity.

Terry Goodkind:  Utter, shameless drivel.

David Eddings:  Light reading, but _The Belgariad_ was loads of fun – I’ve read it front to back several times.  His other series aren’t much worth reading.

Ursula LeGuin:  Possibly the greatest living SF writer.  Her original Earthsea trilogy is splendid, though I’ve not read book 4.

Glen Cook:  I don’t find the Black Company stuff to be as compelling as some do, partly because I find the alliterative names irksome and distracting.  But they’re certainly gritty, and there are some fine ideas in there.

Katherine Kurtz:  The first two Deryni trilogies were very good, though subsequent ones have been a touch overwritten.  Still enjoyable and reccommended, but take note:  there are a lot of unhappy endings in this series, where Bad Stuff happens to likeable characters.

Poul Anderson:  I love his SF work.  His King of Ys series is very ambitious, and richly written.  I found it tough going.

Robert E. Howard:  The original Conan stories (not the pastiches by other authors) are some of my favorites.  There’s a reason why Conan has become such an icon.

Jack Vance:  One of the finest prose stylists in the field.  The Dying Earth and Lyonesse series are where to start, but his SF is pulpy-good too.

Gene Wolfe:  I have the whole _Book of the New Sun_, but lost interest after the first book.  I’ll try again some day.

Roger Zelazny:  The first five Amber books should be required reading.  I also enjoyed _Changeling_.  His best work, though, is _Lord of Light_, one of the greatest SF novels ever written and every bit the equal of _Dune_.  An amazing, amazing book.

L. E. Modesitt, Jr.:  The only thing I’ve read was _The Magic of Recluse_ which I though was quite fresh and enjoyable.

Stephen Donaldson:  His stuff is dreadfully overwritten, but I’ve yet to pick up anything of his that I’ve been able to put down.  It’s a car wreck I can’t tear my eyes away from.

Jennifer Roberson:  Her Cheysuli books were well-written and reasonably fresh.

Joel Rosenberg:  I’ve met him.  He’s a cretin.  My view of his work must sadly be colored by this knowledge.

Michael Moorcock:  The Elric stuff is central to the modern genre and should be read by anyone with a serious interest.  I like much of his stuff (the Elric, Corum, Hawkmoon, Von Bek and Eternal Champion sequences,) while other stuff (the Cornelius Chronicles) leaves me cold.  I am also a fan of his work with Blue Oyster Cult and Hawkwind.

Mercedes Lackey:  Generally considered a hack.  I have no opinion, since I’ve not read any of her stuff.

Marion Zimmer Bradley:  I think _The Mists of Avalon_ is a great book.  Her later fantasies are hard to stomach.

Katherine Kerr:  I liked the first four-book Deverry sequence very much.  I am waiting for the third series to all be out in paperback before reading any further.  For those who don’t know, she’s a gamer – she used to write articles for Dragon, back in the Day.

Terry Pratchett:  A genius.  I loathe humorous fantasy and SF.  His stuff is the exception.

George R. R. Martin:  The first two books in his series are terrific.  However, the thing was originally supposed to be a trilogy.  Then it was supposed to be 4 books, then 5.  Now it’s six books, with a 2-3 year delay between volumes.  And King_Stannis says it may be seven.  I hereby throw up my hands and refuse to read further until the entire series it out.  I really, really hope that this series doesn’t become another Jordanesque fiasco.

Fritz Leiber:  Not a big fan.  I find much of his SF work terribly dated and I think his fantasy tries way to hard to be witty and clever, and usually doesn’t succeed.

Piers Anthony:  SF/Fantasy’s most gifted hack.  He is a writer with immense talent, but he chooses to squander it writing an endless, fetid stream of Xanth novels and other tripe.

Ray Feist:  I liked _Magician_, and the wrap-up of the original Riftwar series was decent, but his later books have left me dead cold.  I drifted off in the middle of the Serpentwar, having lost all interest.  His Empire trilogy with Janny Wurtz is quite good.

Dennis L. McKiernan:  There’s a reason why his Iron Tower trilogy is a near-clone of LotR – he wanted to write sequels to that series, but the Tolkien folks (understandably) said no.  So he wrote an equivalent series, and then wwrote his sequels to that.  If you can get through the Iron Tower, these later books aren’t so bad.  Light reading.

Steven Brust:  The early Jhereg stuff was very enjoyable.  The last few have been much less so.  But his non-Jhereg stuff is worth looking into.  _To Reign in Hell_ is particularly noteworthy.

Terry Brooks:  A more important author than some would like to credit.  Wholly without talent, orignality or writing skill – I was writing better stuff in my 10th-grade Creative Writing class.

Weis & Hickman:  I’ve met Margaret Weis – a very nice lady – so it pains me to say that these books are a joke.  Only in the field of game fiction can they be considered anything more than the lowest form of crap.

R. A. Salvatore:  Maybe the best writer to come out of “gaming fiction.”  By any other standard, a mediocre writer.  Usually readable, at least.

Tad Williams:  Good, though _Memory, Sorrow and Thorn_ was probably 500 pages longer than it needed to be.  A worthwhile read.

I’ve left off some old influences like Eddison, Dunsany, Peake and Cabell.  Tolerance to these  varies considerably.  I thought Eddison was turgid, but I like what  Dunsany I’ve read.  Someday I will try to tackle Peake again.


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## King_Stannis (Jan 9, 2003)

Good list, Assenpfeffer....though I can't believe Leiber's not feeling the love today. Some of the stories set in the theives guild of Lankhmar are my favorite!

I share your wariness about the length of Martin's series, especially after getting torched - like I did - on Jordan. I would be buoyed by a few things. First, and IMHO, Martin is simply a more skilled writer than Jordan. That can overcome alot. In the end, I don't think he'll succumb to the temptation that Jordan seems to have succumbed to. He'll end his series with people clamboring for more, I'll wager. We'll see, though.

Plus, he's shown with stories like "The Hedge Knight" that he can write in the same world and yet not be tied to the current series. That would be my wish - wrap of ASoI&F in 6 books (maybe 7 if it is still going strong), but write some novels or novellas set in different periods of his world with different characters.


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## Assenpfeffer (Jan 9, 2003)

King_Stannis said:
			
		

> *Good list, Assenpfeffer....though I can't believe Leiber's not feeling the love today. Some of the stories set in the theives guild of Lankhmar are my favorite!*




Thanks.  There are a few stories that I liked, as well.  And there's no denying Fafhrd and the Mouser's stature as icons of Sword & Sorcery.  But as a whole the series has only a few high points for me.



> *I share your wariness about the length of Martin's series, especially after getting torched - like I did - on Jordan. I would be buoyed by a few things. First, and IMHO, Martin is simply a more skilled writer than Jordan.*




At one point (about when _The Fires of Heaven_ was published,) I would have ranked them as equals.  Now I'm forced to agree.  Either Jordan is muddling along with no grasp of where his story is headed or he's just cracking out numbers to pump up sales figures.  Martin's stuff at least has _direction_.  Stuff actually _happens_.



> *That can overcome alot. In the end, I don't think he'll succumb to the temptation that Jordan seems to have succumbed to. He'll end his series with people clamboring for more, I'll wager. We'll see, though.*




I hope so, too.  Even if he does end it in six, though, we'll have to wait another 4-6 _years_ for the series to end.  That's howlingly frustrating.



> *Plus, he's shown with stories like "The Hedge Knight" that he can write in the same world and yet not be tied to the current series. That would be my wish - wrap of ASoI&F in 6 books (maybe 7 if it is still going strong), but write some novels or novellas set in different periods of his world with different characters. *




And "The Hedge Knight" is a cracking good story, too.


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## Ashtal (Jan 9, 2003)

Dr Midnight said:
			
		

> *I know what you mean, I went through Elizabeth Haydon and Steven Brust on recommendation from these bastards until they pointed me to the aforementioned George R.R. Martin... a man I'd just like to run up and give a great big sloppy kiss to. Outstanding stuff. I've been buying his books for people who don't even read fantasy, as presents.
> *




I concurr.

I'd actually come to the forum to say just this, to both praise and curse you all for recommending him.

Praises, because I was hooked immediately, and the only thing that's done that for me as of late is the Redwall series.

Curses, because it's a series, and an expensive one, and if it keeps going as it has been, I'm hosed.


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## Pielorinho (Jan 9, 2003)

I'll also recommend Martin's books.  I'm not generally a fan of serial fantasies like he's writing, the old blood&guts routine, but he's so damn good at it.  It's not literature, I think; it doesn't really (imo) wrestle with fundamental questions of being human or anything like that; it's just great fun.

And I hate Robert Jordan.  For the sake of comparison.

If you like Le Guin (and what kind of crazy fool doesn't?  ), I highly recommend checking out Philip Pullman's _His Dark Materials_ trilogy.  They ARE literature, IMO, in the same way (and of the same caliber) as the Earthsea trilogy.

Le Guin's _Tehanu_ was an overbearing preachy grump of a work, I agree, but the fifth book in the series, _The Other Wind_, almost had me weeping at its beauty.  Good stuff.

Finally, I picked up the book _Corrupting Dr. Nice_ on a lark recently at a used bookstore, and was well-rewarded.  It's science fiction, not fantasy, but it's a brilliant satirical work, inventive, fast-moving, thoughtful, and funny.

Daniel


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## theburningman (Jan 9, 2003)

I'm still (half-seriously) convinced that Robert Jordan originally intended to write a traditional trilogy for WoT but when he saw how much money he was making, he decided to milk it for all it was worth.  Look at the ending of the third book.  Yay!  Rand slew the main villain!  Wait a sec, no he didn't, it was just one of the villain's powerful lackeys!

Grr. 

No proof for that of course, but as soon as I started reading the fourth book, the thought entered my head and refuses to leave.


To Olive:

Robin Hobb?  Oh yeah!  I definitely recommended the Farseer books to all and sundry.  Don't know about any of the others, but I think _Assassin's Apprentice, Royal Assassin, and Assassin's Quest_ are wonderful (although the latter was a little weak compared to the first two).  If anyone has read the Tawny Man book yet, I'd like to know if I should pick it up.

GRRM?  Oh.  My.  God.  If only he was getting the kind of press that Jordan has been getting for the last 10 years.  He sure as hell deserves it a lot more.



I humbly suggest _Transformation_ by Carol Berg.  I still can't say why I picked it up in the first place; I had no recommedation to go on, and the cover art, while well done, didn't particularly grab me.  BUT, it is one of the most interesting fantasies I've read since the aforementioned authors.  Do yourselves a favor.

I also recently bought _The Curse of Chalion_ by Lois McMaster Bujold because I enjoyed her Miles Vorkosigan books and wanted to see what she could do with fantasy.  I'll let you know.

Has anyone on here read any of Sara Douglass's Starman books?  Anyone else think she has the most irritating writing style next to Jordan?  I had to put the book down because the epithet "old man" was used on ever other page when the main character got annoyed with his guide.


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## Mistwell (Jan 9, 2003)

Let me pipe in and say that 1) I intend to read the rest of George Martins books as they come out just to find out what happens, however 2) based on reading everything he has written up until now, I am not all that happy with this series anymore.  I feel nothing in common with almost any of the characters anymore, sympathize with almost nobody, and can no longer identify a "hero" character anymore other than perhaps Jon Snow, who is not in it all that much at this point (though there is hope he will become a dominant character in the future).  I feel almost everyone in this series is immorale (yes, even given the context of their lives), and I am no huge moralist.

I know others will disagree with me - that's fine.  But let it be said - some people do not like this series all that much, and wouldn't loudly reccommend it to their friends.

I could suggest dozens of authors I do like, but I will stick to one. ANYTHING by Connie Willis is well worth reading.  Best best sci/fantasy/modern fiction author on the market right now, in my opinion.


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## Hand of Evil (Jan 9, 2003)

Lord of Light by Zelzany - This is such a wonderful book.  Have read it year after year.

JV Jones, she is an enjoyable read.


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## Assenpfeffer (Jan 9, 2003)

Hand of Evil said:
			
		

> *Lord of Light by Zelzany - This is such a wonderful book.  Have read it year after year.*




I once read it three times - back to back to back.  When I finished, I immediately turned to the beginning and started reading again.

I don't have the vocabulary to praise _Lord of Light_ highly enough.


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## JacktheRabbit (Jan 9, 2003)

I tried to read the first one. I got halfway through the book and I depised almost every single character. I finally gave up because I cannot continue to read a book where if every character died a horrible tortured death I really wouldnt care at all.




			
				Femerus the Gnecro said:
			
		

> *
> 
> As always, check out George R.R. Martin... he's three books into one of the best modern fantasy series, IMO (though the stuff with Daenerys (sp) really bores me to tears for some reason).
> 
> -F *


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## King_Stannis (Jan 9, 2003)

theburningman said:
			
		

> *I'm still (half-seriously) convinced that Robert Jordan originally intended to write a traditional trilogy for WoT but when he saw how much money he was making, he decided to milk it for all it was worth.  Look at the ending of the third book.  Yay!  Rand slew the main villain!  Wait a sec, no he didn't, it was just one of the villain's powerful lackeys!...*




I'm gonna say this in Jordan's defense. I think, like Martin, they did envision their respective series' as trilogies. But after writing the first few books, I think both realized that they have a hell of a lot of story to tell. So, increasing the books is not NECESSARILY a problem. Now, GRRM seems to have the blueprint in his head. In essence, the book that is coming out soon - "A Feast for Crows" -is superfluous because it was going to be told in flashback in "A Dance with Dragons". However, Martin realized that too much time would have elapsed and there would have just been too much told via flashback/backstory. It would have confused the reader, so he deemed it better to give the 5 year period he originally wanted to skip a book of its own. But at least you can see the gears turning in his brain. The man seems to have a plan and, presumably an endgame.

Jordan seems to have - as many have pointed out - just been dragging his story out of late. It's not nearly as tight as it was in books 1-3, though I'll confess my information for books 7-10 come from my wife - a victim of "Jordan's Syndrome".  But others have said so, too. Endless sniffs, sighs, wry smiles, braid tugs and arms-folded-under-breasts. Too many descriptives of past events, not giving the reader credit for reading the series from the start - having to suffer character histories told ad nauseaum.

I kind of discount the profit motive - after all, that's how writers make their living. It's just that Martin seems to have found the happy medium of being able to publish 3-4 more future bestsellers while (hopefully) keeping his story tight, fresh and getting it resolved. Jordan seems to have drastically lost his focus and left many former fans out in the cold and wondering why they bothered to begin a series that started with such promise. 

Jordan's books will be bestsellers too, but his star is on the wane while Martin is really feeling the love.


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## Pielorinho (Jan 9, 2003)

DocMoriartty said:
			
		

> *I tried to read the first one. I got halfway through the book and I depised almost every single character. I finally gave up because I cannot continue to read a book where if every character died a horrible tortured death I really wouldnt care at all. *




That's a shame, considering the number of horrible tortured deaths in the series.


Daniel


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## Mallus (Jan 9, 2003)

*Olive...*

...you probably have enough reading to last you awhile, but here goes...

The Iron Dragons Daughter by Michael Swanwick {I'm surprised noone's mentioned this already} There might be a cybernectic dragon on the cover --ignore that for a minute, though its literally a character-- but don't let that fool you. To say it transcends the several genres it belongs to is a vast understatement. 

Also check out The Stations of the Tide by Swanwick. Its pure SF, and beautiful.

Soldiers of Paradise by Paul Park. There are two more volumes, Sugar Rain and The Cult of Loving Kindness, but the first is the oddest, and best, IMHO. 

You like Banks, huh? Have you read his non-Culture SF novel Feersum Endjinn? I thought it was quite good. Even the phonetically spelled portions...

And joining the chorus, I don't think you can get better than Martin's SoIaF right now. They're such a great read, and hopefully a shot in the arm to the dramatically moridbund fantasy genre. 

I also like Feist and Eddings. So sue me. Eddings Belgariad reads like an epic level D&D campaign starring the cast of Friends. For some reason this works for me. And Feist is enjoyable. I like his later series better. He grew as a writer, and his characters are charming.


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## Barendd Nobeard (Jan 9, 2003)

What?  No one extolling the virtues of John Norman's *Gor* books?   


On a more serious note, "one person's trash is another person's treasure."  Or, to put it another way, "there's no accounting for taste."  "Different strokes for different folks."  "Free to be you and me."  All that stuff.

Assenpfeffer - you have managed quite short yet also insightful commentary.  Nice list!

*A Canticle for Leibowitz* by Walter Miller is very good.  I bought the sequel (*St. Leibowitz and the Wild Horse Woman*), but I haven't been able to bring myself to read it.  Yet.


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## Capellan (Jan 9, 2003)

*Re: Olive...*



			
				Mallus said:
			
		

> *The Iron Dragons Daughter by Michael Swanwick {I'm surprised noone's mentioned this already} There might be a cybernectic dragon on the cover --ignore that for a minute, though its literally a character-- but don't let that fool you. To say it transcends the several genres it belongs to is a vast understatement. *




Oh!  I'd forgotten this novel.  It's got literally hundreds of _wonderful_ ideas in it.  Sadly, I don't think the whole ever quite manages to be the sum of its parts, but it is still a fine read.

As for the GRRM vs Jordan debate, and whether it is fair to compare them, as someone said - it's all a matter of opinion.  I consider Jordan a money-milking hack with no sense of pace or direction.  I don't - currently, though that could change  - consider GRRM in anywhere near so poor a light.  However, like Jordan, he _is_ writing a sprawling, multi-volume fantasy novel with a massive cast of characters (each of who gets the narrative lead at different times) and many dark tones.  There are enough similarities there for me to suggest any Jordan-hater think twice about plunging into GRRM.

Oh!  Memory, my memory, why do thee forsake me?  How could I forget *John Wyndham*?  The Chrysalids, The Midwich Cuckoos, Day of the Triffids, Web ... so much good stuff.


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## Wolf72 (Jan 9, 2003)

the last feist book (name?  where they finally defeat the dark queen's forces) seemed to be turning out good ...

then the final battle just blew chunks, "gee" says pug "I got hammered by a magic shield" ... then manages to overcome it and save everyone (or something to that effect).

... but, I absolutely loved _Shadow of a Dark Queen_


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## Dr Bunsen Honeydew (Jan 9, 2003)

My own recommendations (if they count for anything...)

A good idea might be to check out a compendium called LEGENDS. Top Fantasy authors were asked for a short story set in their world/universe. It presents a good overview of about a dozen different authors. There is another series based on sci-fi books, but I can't remember the title. Both were edited by Robert Silverberg.  Another LEGENDS is coming out soon.

Terry Pratchett - If I could recomend him any more I wouldn't stop talking for hours. Skip the first two books in his Discworld series (The Colour of Magic and The Light Fantastic, but read them after you've read something else by him. They don't give a true picture of the rest of the series - he was finding his feet) and read anything else. Then go out and get more. And more. The only fantasy humour worth reading that I have come across. The best online site that know of is http://www.co.uk.lspace.org/ Alt.fan.pratchett is also worth checking out - he posts there regularly.

No one has mentioned Neil Gaiman yet. While it may not be heroic fantasy as such, if you can get your hands on his comic series Sandman, then you are in for a thrill ride of otherworldly dimensions. His novels Neverwhere and American Gods are excellent, as is his childrens novel Coraline, and pretty much anything else he has written. He has one of the best author blogs at http://www.neilgaiman.com/journal/journal.asp

George RR Martin. What can I say. Wow. A Song of Ice and Fire was meant to be only five books, but he is trying to keep it down to seven, and he really regrets expanding it out (he still hopes to keep it within six but is afraid he'll be pushing out to seven.) He is intending to write more Dunk & Egg stories (Hedge Knight is coming out as a comic. Woohoo!). He's not afraid to kill off characters (especially just when you are beginning to like them), to make you think differently about established characters (are they evil, or good? Sometimes its so hard to tell!) and generally make their lives incredibly difficult. It's awesome stuff. For more information try his homepage at www.georgerrmartin.com or the fan site at www.westeros.org The other stuff he has written, or been involved with is generally pretty good (Fevre Dream (vampires and paddle steamers)) is excellent and the super hero series that he edits (Wild Cards) is above so-so.

Alan Moore. I'm not really a huge comic fan but Alan Moore and Neil Gaiman rock like nobody else. Read From Hell (much better than the movie) and the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen (Upcoming movie, but book will probably be better again). Also read V for Vendetta (this is a must) and Watchmen. Then read Swamp Thing, Top Ten, Promethea, and anything else you can find that he has written.

Mervyn Peake's Gormenghast is a literary classic. This means that it is incredibly hard to read. But it is well worth it. The BBC adaptation was excellent, if you can catch this then do so.

David Eddings. What a let down. Read the first series, but don't touch the rest with your 10' pole (tm). Don't even go near the one with a cat on the cover. Not even in ful protective gear.

Robert Jordan. Was good. Now not good. Stuff happens in the last 20 pages, the rest of it is filled with whining, crossed arms and hair-pulling. The sooner he kills everybody off (and doesn't bring them back!) the better.

Robin Hobb - in the two series that I've read (Liveship Traders and Farseer Quest (Books are packed up, can't find them at the moment to check titles) the first two books in both series are good, but the third in both is a complete let down.

That's all that I can think of for now, but until next time - make sandwiches, not war!


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## Xilo (Jan 10, 2003)

um... well my 2 cents are deffinatly give the first Feist/Wurts book a read. I loved the whole series (much more than the rest of feist stuff after magician). Its a slightly different setting and has some good political intrigue.

But if nothing else I wish I had more time to read some of these recomendations. damn job 


Edit: And how can I forget robert pullman's Northern Lights series! wow that was awsome.


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## Olive (Jan 10, 2003)

Dr Bunsen Honeydew said:
			
		

> *<snip>*




Other than terry pratchett i like everything you've mentioned here. I love alan moore. got book 1 of promethea for xmas and loved it. V for Vendetta is the only comic i've ever read that made me cry...

and couldn't agree more about robiun hobbs... bad endings. the third thrology (new fitz stuff) has had good first two books... we'll see about the third. at least she does end things tho...

and i did like the fisrt few WoT books. so, maybe based on these recommendations, i'll give Martin a try.

also: for those earthsea fans who hated the fourth book, i did too, but really liked the fifth book called (afaicr) The Other Wind. It might be hard to follow unless you have read the forth book tho.

thanks, this thread has been great.


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## Gunslinger (Jan 10, 2003)

I really enjoyed Terry Goodkind's "Sword of Truth" series, as well as L. E. Modesitt, Jr.'s "Saga of Recluse".


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## Oogar (Jan 10, 2003)

People have said it already, but it comes down to personal taste.

You did not actually ask for new suggestions, so I will try to prevent myself from offering. For many years I would devour books, a book a day, or at least 3 a week, if I was very busy. Slowly I realized I was reading more "unclean droppings" then quality. I tend to go in cycles now. No books for a little, focus on games, TV, movies, Work and other hobbies. Then, when I am really ready for a book, I seem to be more open to finding enjoyment in it. 

I also found that trying to write will bring me back to the books, and give me more respect for many of the authors out there (not all of them, but many).

Good luck in your reading, and if you really did want suggestions, let me know


----------



## Orius (Jan 10, 2003)

Assenpfeffer said:
			
		

> *Here’s my recommendations.  Even though I shouldn’t have to say this, please bear in mind that this is all my opinion.  In no particular order:
> 
> Whoa, that's damn near every fantasy fiction writer I've ever heard of -- with one huge glaring excepetion.  How come you didn't mention Tolkien anywhere?*


----------



## MulhorandSage (Jan 10, 2003)

Orius said:
			
		

> *
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## brak1 (Jan 10, 2003)

Just wanted to second Guy Gavriel Kay.  I'd suggest trying Tigana first.  

George RR Martin is my fave, but he isn't for everyone, especially if you get to like certain characters.  One of my brothers got most of the way through the first book and got to a particularly, um, surprising development.  He slammed the book down and said, "That's it!  I'm done!"


----------



## Assenpfeffer (Jan 10, 2003)

Orius said:
			
		

> *
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Assenpfeffer (Jan 10, 2003)

*Re: Re: Why have all the fanesy books i've read on recommendation from enworld sucked?*



			
				Barendd Nobeard said:
			
		

> *What?  No one extolling the virtues of John Norman's Gor books?   *




You know, the first few (6, I think) were reasonably successful in the vein of Edgar Rice Burroughs' Barsoom stories.  With a BDSM subtext, but you could ignore that if you tried.

Then, about book 7, the subtext took over and the writing, never a strong point of the books, got even worse, driving the whole thing into the toilet.  A shame, really - there was actual potential displayed in books 4 and 5..


----------



## Pielorinho (Jan 10, 2003)

Guy Gavriel Kay is fantastic.  My personal favorites were _Sailing to Sarantium_ and its sequel (whose name I forget).  Really interesting stuff.

And again, I'll point out that I'm a Jordan-hater who loves Martin, as is my fiancee, so it's not too weird an idea.

Daniel


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## KnowTheToe (Jan 10, 2003)

Crothian said:
			
		

> *Okay, you liked Magician by Fiest, how about any of his other books?
> *




Try Fairy Tale by Fiest.  It is not fantasy, but it is an awsome book.  IMO his best writing by far.  The characters are interesting and the concepts are pretty cool.  The basis of the story is how fairy tales/ folk lore came into existance and the dangers they still present to the world.  I have yet to recommend this to anyone who did not think it was fantastic.


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## KnowTheToe (Jan 10, 2003)

I am also going to jump on the band wagon not to recommend Martin.  While his series is excellent, he has not committed to an ending and if there are 3 more books, you have to wait 6 years to get conclusion, by then you have lost the feel of the story and have to reread the books several times.  While rereading the books is enjoyable, you lose some of the magic because you know what is coming up and a large part of my enjoyment of the series is the surprises and twists in characters as their world changes around them from the ravages of war.


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## Fast Learner (Jan 10, 2003)

I'm jumping on the "hate Jordan, love Martin" bandwagon. I can't even imagine how anyone would consider them similar. Jordan's character's are _at best_ one dimensional, where Martin's are _at least_ three dimensional. 

I also was quite disappointed with Cook's _Black Company_, again due to one- to two-dimensional characters (and because true mercenaries suck, as having no morals is inexcusable).

Martin rocks, as does Mielville (at least _Perdido Street Station_).


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## Pielorinho (Jan 10, 2003)

Fast Learner said:
			
		

> *I'm jumping on the "hate Jordan, love Martin" bandwagon. I can't even imagine how anyone would consider them similar. Jordan's character's are at best one dimensional, where Martin's are at least three dimensional. *




Yeah, my favorite character, Dany, exists in thirteen dimensions .

Daniel


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## Bob Aberton (Jan 12, 2003)

I'll say something about the GRRM books (Mind you I've only read Game of Thrones and A Clash of Kings...).

Some people have said that they do not like the books that much because good guys die and generally (at least so far) the bad guys win.

I'm pretty much a bleeding heart myself, and I was pretty downhearted when, for example,

SPOILERS


















I WARNED YOU









Eddard Stark dies, or when Winterfell is burned.  








BUT,

I think it is the mark of good literature (not just a good fantasy story) that I actually care enough for the characters to feel as though I lost a friend when one of them died (usually horribly and tortuously).

If you don't like it when the Bad Guys win and the Good Guys either die horribly or kill someone else in a horrible fashion, maybe the series isn't for you.

BUT they are excellent books overall.  If you enjoy, say, Greek tragedy-style literature, GRRM's books may be your kind of story.


----------



## LightPhoenix (Jan 12, 2003)

I just finished reading Robin Hobb's _Farseer_ trilogy, and man was I impressed.  It _so_ did not end like I thought it was going to.  I also read the first novel of _The Tawny Man_ (entitled Fool's Errand and let me tell you, I almost cried at one point in the book.  She writes the tragic hero VERY well, IMO.  She also characterizes personal relationships very well, something that IMO not too many authors do.

As for recommending George R.R. Martin, I'd say give it a try (as I would with anything).  Worse comes to worse, you hate it, no biggie.  I'm of the opinion that reading is never a waste of time, regardless of what it is.

I've been thinking a lot about Jordan, and I think I've finally nailed on why his writing bugs me so much.  I think that he does indeed have talent, but he doesn't use it's full potential.  There are some scenes later in the series that I thought were really good - the end of the ninth book comes to mind.  But overall I think he doesn't use his potential in his writing, or just doesn't care.  Oh, and he needs to start writing his women like real people.

Ooh, personal writing theory: writing as the opposite gender isn't particularly hard, because in most ways men and women are the same.  There are some underlying psychological differences between the two genders, true, but ultimately if you just forget about the gender of the person you're writing and just write them as a human, you'll do fine.


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## Eosin the Red (Jan 12, 2003)

First to answer the original question: I would suggest sticking with what you like - Some decent suggestions abound. I would not recommend GRRM to you. I don't think you will grok.


I like GRRM and RJ for different reasons and they tell different stories. I am getting to where I enjoy the rants from people about the series. I look at WoT like I look at Babylon5 - if it lasts 30 years, I will be happy. I look forward to reading book 20 [if there is a book 20]. 

I do find it funny that you would mention that how easy it is to write from a woman's perspective. I can't even figure out why my own wife behaves the way she does, much less some of the more cryptic women I have met. Don't even get me started on my daughter. I think you are making light of something that you do not understand well - psychological, physiological, social, needs strata, hierarchy. Go out and read an issue of Cosmo, women are not just like men but with *****.


Having said that, GRRM rocks on toast. His characters are much more ambigious than RJ ~ but that is as much a product of the stories being told as the writer. The charcters in WoT would not survive one year in GRRMs Westeros, but the characters from Westeros would not be able to survive in WoT either [if they did it would be as Darkfriends]. Apples to Apples, not Oranges to Apples.


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## Olive (Jan 12, 2003)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> *I just finished reading Robin Hobb's Farseer trilogy, and man was I impressed.  It so did not end like I thought it was going to.  I also read the first novel of The Tawny Man (entitled Fool's Errand and let me tell you, I almost cried at one point in the book.  She writes the tragic hero VERY well, IMO.  She also characterizes personal relationships very well, something that IMO not too many authors do.
> *




i really reallt recomend reading the liveship traders series before reading the second book in the tawny man series. really do. everything will make more sense. i didn't and then wished i had...


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## Starman (Jan 12, 2003)

*Writing women*



> Ooh, personal writing theory: writing as the opposite gender isn't particularly hard, because in most ways men and women are the same. There are some underlying psychological differences between the two genders, true, but ultimately if you just forget about the gender of the person you're writing and just write them as a human, you'll do fine.




"How do you write women so well?"

"I think of a man and I take away reason and accountability."

-from As Good As It Gets 

Great movie.

Starman


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## Sulimo (Jan 12, 2003)

*Re: Olive...*



			
				Mallus said:
			
		

> *I also like Feist and Eddings. So sue me. Eddings Belgariad reads like an epic level D&D campaign starring the cast of Friends. For some reason this works for me. And Feist is enjoyable. I like his later series better. He grew as a writer, and his characters are charming. *




I also really like Ray Feist's stuff...one of the few authors I buy all the time (the other being Terry Pratchett) rather than just borrowing from the local library.

I really wish I had the time to go though it all so I could use the world as a game setting. Or that Ray and Midmekia Press would get round to releasing the RPG.


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## Sulimo (Jan 12, 2003)

Femerus the Gnecro said:
			
		

> *Speaking of Conan, the original Conan books by Robert E. Howard are a bit of a guilty pleasure of mine, and extremely enjoyable to boot.  *




Just make sure you dont get stuck with edited versions of the Howard Tales.


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## Sulimo (Jan 12, 2003)

Assenpfeffer said:
			
		

> *Joel Rosenberg:  I’ve met him.  He’s a cretin.  My view of his work must sadly be colored by this knowledge. *




Hmm...from the places online I've hung out at where he also has he seems like a nice guy. As for his books...I loved Guardians of the Flame. But it is many years since I read one.

*



			Terry Pratchett:  A genius.  I loathe humorous fantasy and SF.  His stuff is the exception.
		
Click to expand...


*
I adore his work. Probably my fave living author.

*



			George R. R. Martin:  The first two books in his series are terrific.
		
Click to expand...


*
I tried to, but got bored and gave up about 50-100 pages into book 1.

*



			Fritz Leiber:  Not a big fan.  I find much of his SF work terribly dated and I think his fantasy tries way to hard to be witty and clever, and usually doesn’t succeed.
		
Click to expand...


*
I havent read his other work but love all the Fafhrd/Mouser tales.

*



			Piers Anthony:  SF/Fantasy’s most gifted hack.  He is a writer with immense talent, but he chooses to squander it writing an endless, fetid stream of Xanth novels and other tripe.
		
Click to expand...


*
Yeah. He is a hack..but there is some of his work I quite liked, Incarnations of Immortality is one of them. The Phaze/Adept series wasnt too bad either..at least the start.

*



			Ray Feist:  I liked Magician, and the wrap-up of the original Riftwar series was decent, but his later books have left me dead cold.  I drifted off in the middle of the Serpentwar, having lost all interest.  His Empire trilogy with Janny Wurtz is quite good.
		
Click to expand...


*
I really like his work. Buy eveything he puts out.

*



			Terry Brooks:  A more important author than some would like to credit.  Wholly without talent, orignality or writing skill – I was writing better stuff in my 10th-grade Creative Writing class.
		
Click to expand...


*
Sword of Shannara is the only book I've actually thrown in the garbage in disgust. On the other hand I did like the Landover series.

*



			Weis & Hickman:  I’ve met Margaret Weis – a very nice lady – so it pains me to say that these books are a joke.  Only in the field of game fiction can they be considered anything more than the lowest form of crap.

R. A. Salvatore:  Maybe the best writer to come out of “gaming fiction.”  By any other standard, a mediocre writer.  Usually readable, at least.
		
Click to expand...


*
I'd definitely hold Weis & Hickman up above Salvatore whose work I dont like much at all. Although admittedly I havent read any Weis & Hickman since the Deathgate Series.

I'd also hold Elaine Cunningham above Salvatore in the game fiction stakes.

I also liked the Paul Kidd game fiction alot...admittedly it is comedy.


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## GuardianLurker (Jan 12, 2003)

*The Difference between RJ and GRRM*

George RR Martin, in addition to being a very gifted writer, is also an editor. And also a gamer - you all know that the first few WildCards tales were based on a supers campaign he was in, yes?

Robert Jordan, while a decent writer, is only a writer, and to the best of my knowledge has not served as a professional editor. Worse, his work is not apparently editted in any way, and he's gotten successful enough that he can probably insist on that indulgence.

As many professional writers have said, a good editor is well worth their weight in gold, and makes the difference between a good book and a GREAT book.


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## Eridanis (Jan 12, 2003)

You could also check out the "If You Liked This..." database at http://www.magicdragon.com/UltimateSF/thisthat.html. Find more authors based on your preferences.

I suppose I should mention that I recently read THE DEED OF PAKSENARRION on Dinkeldog's recommendation - and adored it. The novel (actually, an omnibus of three novels published in the late 80's) follows a young farm girl on her quest to better herself and become a famous swordsman. A great "how to become a paladin" book.

If I get a chance, I'll be cutting in to Brust's latest, THE PATHS OF THE DEAD, and I continue to try PARADISE LOST with slow success. Some 19th century SF, and also having SILMARILLION at my bedside, as well as SECRETS OF ACTING SHAKESPEARE by Tucker... but that's a whole 'nother hobby.

It would be worth having a clone just to get done all the reading I want.


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## Chaldfont (Jan 12, 2003)

I don't know about anyone else here, but even though I am thoroughly addicted to Sci-Fi and Fantasy, I have trouble finding books that aren't "more of the same". I look for something that is a little different. For other people in the same boat, here is a list of things I have read that I really enjoyed because I had not read anything like them before. If you have others I have missed, let me know!

Michael Morcock's Elric stories: The hero is a the arrogant and sickly last emperor of a decadent and truely evil race. He can't even survive without his soul-sucking demon sword. While even these stories start to look the same after a while, they are fun in small doses.

Roger Zelazny's Amber series: I love it when you wake up with amnesia only to find out you can travel to any reality you can dream up.

China Mieville's Bas Lag stories: I can't get enough of this. What if your PC had to tongue kiss a fish-greasy kuo-toan magic item to get it to work? Freaky.

Phillip Pullman's His Dark Materials series: Young Adult but still fun.  What if everyone had a familiar?

Sabriel by Garth Nix: What if necromancers are there to keep the dead dead?

George R. R. Martin's Tuf Voyaging: I can't get into this Fire & Ice series. I have tried to read the first book about three times and its just not my thing. But Tuf Voyaging is a sci-fi book about a kilometer's long space-ship with the ability to clone and genetically alter any organism in the known universe. Its used for ecological warefare. At least it was until a quirky merchant gets a hold of it.

Anyone else have anything out of the ordinary?


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## CCamfield (Jan 13, 2003)

Olive, out of curiousity, have you read any Gene Wolfe?  (e.g. Book of the New Sun)

I find him a difficult author to read (damn untrustable narrators...) but he's a very good writer.

Here's my eternal recommendation:

*Steven Erikson - Gardens of the Moon*

I seem to be alone here in pimping Steven Erikson's books.   People who don't like long series shouldn't read him - the series is projected as 10 volumes long! - but important things happen in each book, there is some really good worldbuilding going on, complex plotting, and excellent writing.  Gritty story elements, a la Martin or Cook.  

He's not easy to come by in the States, but I think can be ordered pretty cheaply from Canada (e.g. www.amazon.ca).


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## CCamfield (Jan 13, 2003)

Chaldfont said:
			
		

> *
> Anyone else have anything out of the ordinary? *




John Crowley's The Deep comes to mind.  The world is the flat top of a giant cylinder.  There's an explanation for that, but I recall it being pretty weird.  Well, so was the story, which revolved around Red and Black royal houses (sort of chess-like).

Chaldfont, maybe it's pedestrian in comparison to Mieville's stuff, but I have a website with some non-bogstandard-European-fantasy listed.  Could do with an update, but what the hey.

http://www3.sympatico.ca/ccamfield/stranger.html


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## RolandOfGilead (Jan 13, 2003)

Ok, I just want to drop my 2 cents in here...

If you want to try something different, try The Dark Tower by stephen king.. read the WHOLE series.  You will find a rich world
of fantasy / sci fi of epic proportions.  If you make it to book 4, you will probably agree that it doesnt get much better! hehe. 

Another great series: The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever by Stephen R. Donaldson.. while Donaldson was mentioned above, I dont think this series was given particular credit.  It is a great fantasy epic - to me, its a darker tolkien.

Lastly, check into Thieves World - Its a multi volume compilation of short stories in a common setting but by different authors. A+
-- at least the first couple books


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## Mallus (Jan 13, 2003)

*Re: Re: Olive...*



			
				Sulimo said:
			
		

> *I really wish I had the time to go though it all so I could use the world as a game setting. Or that Ray and Midmekia Press would get round to releasing the RPG. *




The father of an old high school friend --who got me involved in D&D in the first place-- has a copy of the Carse city book published by Midkemia press, which I believe pre-dates the publication of Magician. 

I don't remember it being great, but it really made me wish I could've participated in the campaign(s) that gave rise to Feist's books.

Do you know if Feist is going to do a sequel to the Serpent War series?


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## Eridanis (Jan 13, 2003)

*Re: Re: Why have all the fanesy books i've read on recommendation from enworld sucked?*



			
				CCamfield said:
			
		

> *Here's my eternal recommendation:
> 
> Steven Erikson - Gardens of the Moon *



That's been on my list of books to find since you (or someone else) recommened it a year ago, but it's just not to be found here in the States. I'll try amazon.ca, though; thanks for that tip!


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## Mistwell (Jan 13, 2003)

*Re: Re: Why have all the fanesy books i've read on recommendation from enworld sucked?*



			
				CCamfield said:
			
		

> *Olive, out of curiousity, have you read any Gene Wolfe?  (e.g. Book of the New Sun)
> 
> I find him a difficult author to read (damn untrustable narrators...) but he's a very good writer.
> 
> ...




I bought the first 3 books, at great expense.  However, I had trouble getting through the first chunk of the first book.  It bored me all to hell.  Not a huge criticism, since getting into any new book is often difficult, but so far I have not been able to do it. I intend to return to it at some time.  I just need further assurance that it is worth it - that the rest of it is a lot faster paced than the beginning of the first book.


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## seasong (Jan 13, 2003)

I'll put in a second for _The Iron Dragon's Daughter_ and _The Deed of Paksenarrion_.

_The Iron Dragon's Daughter_ is a vicious, dark, violent little gem of a book that I hated myself for enjoying. It's a bit disjointed in some ways, but it is a treasure trove of ideas.

_The Deed of Paksenarrion_ directly inspired one of the best narrative campaigns I've run ever. It is, as mentioned, D&D Paladin Hardcore. In fact, it's pretty obvious from the get-go that the "physics" of the world are D&D.

Some others I'd recommend:

P.C. Hodgell's _Godstalk_ and _Dark of the Moon_ follow the same character in a delightfully twisted pair of stories. Of the two, _Godstalk_ is the one I like best, as the city of Tai-Tastigon is brilliantly presented.

J. Gregory Keyes' _The Waterborn_ and _The Dark God_ are heavy on the culture, language and character development. Not going to be for everyone, but for a devoted builder of settings like me, or for someone who likes a good gritty romance, these books rock.

Michael Scott Rohan's _Winter of the World_ series (consisting of _The Anvil of Ice_, _The Forge in the Forest_, _The Hammer of the Sun_). All follow the same character. Not perfect, but good and compelling, and it will definitely inspire magic item crafting .


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## CCamfield (Jan 14, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: Why have all the fanesy books i've read on recommendation from enworld sucked?*



			
				Mistwell said:
			
		

> *
> I bought the first 3 books, at great expense.  However, I had trouble getting through the first chunk of the first book.  It bored me all to hell.  Not a huge criticism, since getting into any new book is often difficult, but so far I have not been able to do it. I intend to return to it at some time.  I just need further assurance that it is worth it - that the rest of it is a lot faster paced than the beginning of the first book. *




Hmm... looking at the first book, you're right, there is a lot of talk and not too much action at the first part of the book.  

I'd say if you can make it to the 250-page mark, around that point some of what's going on becomes more apparent, as certain characters realize they have to do something or the  is _really_ going to hit the fan.

I guess my recommendation of the book should come tempered with "Your Mileage May Vary" signs.


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## Dr Bunsen Honeydew (Jan 14, 2003)

Here's a few more of my mini book reviews...

Gene Wolfe- I'm struggling through the second half of The New Sun books at the moment (one of the fourteen books that I'm reading at the moment). Very hard to deal with. The writing is difficult, but there are some neat ideas (go _Terminus Est_!!). I did enjoy _The Island of Doctor Death and Other Stories and Other Stories_ (yeas, that's its full title!) however.

Jack Vance - I'd like to read more, but haven't had the chance yet. What I have read has been very good.

Harlan Ellsion - Only read a couple of dozen short stories, but will definitely go for more when I get the chance...

Tad Williams - his _Memory, Sorrow & Thorn_ really got me back into epic fantasy. It was also the kick that gave George RR Martin the kick to start writing ASoIaF. Although you can tell from page one what the ending is going to be, the journey there is fantastic. His sci-fi _Otherland_ series is also excellent. I've heard some good things about his online Shadowmarch writings (at http://www.shadowmarch.com/main.asp ) but haven't read any of it yet.

Robert Zelazny - _Lord of Light_  is a remarkable book and I can't recommend it enough.

Robert Jordan - although I've already mentioned him, I didn't mention his Conan books. How he can write the same book over and over again, changing only the names, without being caught is beyond me, but as fluff, they work well.

Stephen Donaldson- _The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant_ start really well - Donaldson seems really twisted, but after the first book they die a slow, horrible death. The article The Well-Tempered Plot Device makes excellent reading for every would-be writer.

Anne Mcaffrey - Another person who doesn't know when she should stop writing and leave us all alone. Pern stops being interesting after a book or two.

Raymond E. Feist - I've hate to say it, but _Magician_ is a horrible book. Very tacky. IMO the series that he did with Janny Wurst(can't remember what it's called) was much better.

When I think of more, I'll be back, so in the meantime - Make sandwiches, not War!


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## Andrew D. Gable (Jan 14, 2003)

seasong said:
			
		

> *Michael Scott Rohan's Winter of the World series (consisting of The Anvil of Ice, The Forge in the Forest, The Hammer of the Sun). All follow the same character. Not perfect, but good and compelling, and it will definitely inspire magic item crafting . *




Oh my Good God!  Someone else mentioned these!  I've been meaning to reread 'em but haven't gotten around to it.  I liked the "prehistoric Earth as fantasy world" thing - sure, Howard did it too (albeit minus the Finnish overtones)... the central conflict (vs. the Ice) inspired my OA campaign, actually.


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## jdavis (Jan 14, 2003)

Dr Bunsen Honeydew said:
			
		

> *Here's a few more of my mini book reviews...
> 
> Gene Wolfe- I'm struggling through the second half of The New Sun books at the moment (one of the fourteen books that I'm reading at the moment). Very hard to deal with. The writing is difficult, but there are some neat ideas (go Terminus Est!!). I did enjoy The Island of Doctor Death and Other Stories and Other Stories (yeas, that's its full title!) however.
> 
> ...




I used to swear by the Anne Macaffery Dragonriders books when I was young but as I got older alot of the things that went on in them started to make more sense to me and I started to become slightly nauseated by them. She is a dirty old woman deep down.

The Feist/Janny Wurst books were very good (they had a oriental slant to them), the rest of his books were good when I was young but I outgrew them, I stopped reading with the "King's Buccanner" (or something like that) and never looked back.


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## Knightfall (Jan 14, 2003)

*Re: Re: Why have all the fanesy books i've read on recommendation from enworld sucked?*



			
				CCamfield said:
			
		

> *Here's my eternal recommendation:
> 
> Steven Erikson - Gardens of the Moon
> 
> I seem to be alone here in pimping Steven Erikson's books.   People who don't like long series shouldn't read him - the series is projected as 10 volumes long! - but important things happen in each book, there is some really good worldbuilding going on, complex plotting, and excellent writing.  Gritty story elements, a la Martin or Cook.*




Cool.  A 10 volume fantasy series by a Canadian.  I like the sound of that.

I checked out the reviews on amazon.ca and this one is definitely on my to read list...

As for other fantasy series, I'm pretty much addicted to book buying.  A lot of what I have, I haven't read yet.  In the past, I've read a lot of Dragonlance and just finished reading The War of Souls trilogy, which was interesting, yet designed to bring Dragonlance back to where it was.

I have the first 7 books of WoT but just can't into book 5.  I got halfway through and just stopped.

I'm picky about what I read and tend towards reading one or two books then going several months before picking up another one.

Anyway, just my 2 cents  late at night {yawn}.

KF72


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## Assenpfeffer (Jan 14, 2003)

Dr Bunsen Honeydew said:
			
		

> *Anne Mcaffrey - Another person who doesn't know when she should stop writing and leave us all alone. Pern stops being interesting after a book or two.
> 
> Raymond E. Feist - I've hate to say it, but Magician is a horrible book. Very tacky. IMO the series that he did with Janny Wurst(can't remember what it's called) was much better. *




Great list, good commentary.  Glad to find somebody else who isn't afraid to voice a strong opinion.  

As for Pern, I liked the first book up until the out-of-left-field ending.  Books 2 and 3 were readable as well.  After that... gaaah.

In other news, my complete set of Wheel of Time hardcovers, plus the Guide, just went on eBay last night.  I will read spoilers to keep up with the story from now on.


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## WayneLigon (Jan 14, 2003)

jdavis said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I used to swear by the Anne Macaffery Dragonriders books when I was young but as I got older alot of the things that went on in them started to make more sense to me and I started to become slightly nauseated by them. She is a dirty old woman deep down.
> *




Huh? Like what?


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## Henry (Jan 14, 2003)

As it is often said, there is no accounting for taste. One of my favorite book series of all time was the Cross-Time Engineer Series by Leo Frankowski.

However, most people who read it come away with the impression that it is sexist, misogynistic tripe. To each their own. 


I liked the series for four reasons:


It deals with time travel, which I am a sucker for.
It takes a "Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court" approach by dealing directly with the Engineering problems the traveller faced.
The female characters in the series start out relatively one-sided and weak, but pretty much end up running the show by the end of the series. Several of the chapters of the books are even told from the point of view of the female characters, and the last book is actually told from the POV of a VERY important female character.
The juxtaposition of a 20th century Polish socialist with 13th century nascent-capitalistic Poles is marvelous reading. If Poland is to stand a GHOST of a chance resisting the irresistable Mongol Horde, the main character has to go through the part of Marx that he hates the most - pushing the people through an industrial revolution by using capitalism as its incentive. The book doesn't focus on politics or economy, but focuses on a man doing something he rampantly doesn't believe in - to save his hide, and the half-million or so people who depend on him.

However, the five books are RIFE with midieval values on women, society, conflict between peoples, and the main character's take on all of them from a 20th century perspective. It is not for everyone.


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## Mallus (Jan 14, 2003)

Henry said:
			
		

> *most people who read it come away with the impression that it is sexist, misogynistic tripe. *




That's because there are. There also some of most flat-out entertaining books I've ever read {1st 4...anyway}. 

My first introduction was to them was one on a trip to Baltimore back in college. I was picking a good friend up from Hopkins for the weekend. So I get there down there, from central Jersey, after a long day of classes myself, perfectly ready to let my friend drive us back. Except he's engrossed in The Cross-Time Engineer. After failing miserably to guilt him into driving, we reach a compromise; he drives, I read the book to him.

After about 10 minutes of reading aloud, fighting off motion sickness, and general groussing, I realized I was hooked.


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## jdavis (Jan 14, 2003)

WayneLigon said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Huh? Like what? *




That came out sounding worse than I wanted, but I read the first 3 books when I was 12 and didn't catch alot of what was going on behind the scenes. her books remind me of Anne Rice's books that way, there is alot of sexuality just floating around. Needless to say, even the parts I did get were a little much for a 12 year old. And I agree that the last book or two were way off in left field.


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## Henry (Jan 15, 2003)

Mallus said:
			
		

> *That's because they are.*




 Yeah, aren't they? Frankowski's vision of things can be pretty scary, in some ways. But Lord the man can keep you hooked on an engineering problem! And I HATE engineering!


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## Pazu (Jan 15, 2003)

*A few additional recommendations*

Like anyone asked, I know.   So I'm limiting these to those I haven't noticed anyone mentioning, or should be re-emphasized:

Garth Nix:  _Sabriel, Lirael,_ and _Abhorsen_ (the latter just released).  Sort of YA but very interesting.

Philip Pullman:  _The Golden Compass_ (that's _Northern Lights_, I think, to the folks in the UK), _The Subtle Knife_, and _The Amber Spyglass_.  Again, some consider them YA, but they're very good.

Barry Hughart:  _Bridge of Birds, Eight Skilled Gentlemen,_ and _The Story of the Stone_.  Recently re-released in a handy omnibus edition.  Ancient Chinese-flavored fantasy.  Excellent.

Dianne Wynne Jones:  Just about anything, although she went through a rather "dark" phase that reflects a bit oddly in her work (examples of this would be _Fire and Hemlock_ and _Time of the Ghost_).  Most recently I read _Cart and Cwidder_, which has about the best depiction of a family of D&D3e bards I could imagine.   As an added bonus, _Howl's Moving Castle_ is being adapted into a movie by Hayao Miyazaki and Studio Ghibli!

I'll stop here for now.



-- Pazu


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## Sulimo (Jan 15, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: Olive...*



			
				Mallus said:
			
		

> *
> 
> The father of an old high school friend --who got me involved in D&D in the first place-- has a copy of the Carse city book published by Midkemia press, which I believe pre-dates the publication of Magician.
> 
> I don't remember it being great, but it really made me wish I could've participated in the campaign(s) that gave rise to Feist's books.*




I missed getting Carse, but I have a couple of the others. The setting of the novels is indeed that of the campaign that Feist was involved in and published a few bits for (although it is teaked abit). The novels are just set 500 years before that of the game world.

For years Ray and co have talked about publishing Midkemia as a gaming world again, but they's rather use their homebrew system rather than shoehorn it into 3e. 

*



			Do you know if Feist is going to do a sequel to the Serpent War series?
		
Click to expand...


*
Yep. The current series 'Conclave of Shadows' is the series that follows on from the Serpentwar. Only the first book is out so far...its called Talon of the Silver Hawk. I havent read it though as I generally wait for the paperbacks.


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## Lady Mer (Jan 16, 2003)

> As an added bonus, Howl's Moving Castle is being adapted into a movie by Hayao Miyazaki and Studio Ghibli




Really? Where did you hear this? Because my sister and I will HAVE to see it- we both loved that book when we were younger. Still do, actually.


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## Pazu (Jan 16, 2003)

Lady Mer said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Really? Where did you hear this? Because my sister and I will HAVE to see it- we both loved that book when we were younger. Still do, actually. *




Best place for info is www.nausicaa.net.  Or you could sign on to the Studio Ghibli mailing list (I think the info is at the nausicaa.net site).  I think the Diana Wynne Jones website (www.dianawynnejones.com, I think) also has some information.

_Haoru no Ugoku Shiro_ has been in the pipeline for a couple of years, actually; there was a brief snag when the original director(?), Mamoru Hosoda, couldn't come up with a treatment that the Studio Ghibli folks liked.  I believe that subsequently, Miyazaki announced that he himself would be taking the reigns.   (No disrespect intended to Hosoda-san, whose work I also enjoy.)

It seems like a perfect match to me.  The protagonist in _Howl's Moving Castle_ is a classic Ghibli girl.   I just hope they can make Howl over-the-top enough.

Have you read the sequel, _Castle in the Air_?

-- Pazu (a classic Ghibli guy)


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## kkoie (Jan 16, 2003)

I'm suprised no one ever mentioned the Thieves World series.  I always thought the stories in it were fun to read.

Granted its out of print now, but you can still get copies at the library or used bookstores.


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## Lady Mer (Jan 16, 2003)

Yeah, I've read Castle in the Air. I've read everything of hers I could get my hands on. She, along with Patricia C. Wrede and Susan Cooper, belongs in my 'Books I read as a kid that are still fun to read in my mid- 20's' category.

As for actual reccomendations, Simon Green's _Blue Moon Rising_  and the Hawk and Fisher stories are worth reading. Also Jane Lindskold's _Through Wolf's Eyes_ and Julian May- Either the Plioscene Exiles or the Galactic Mileu series'.


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## danbala (Jan 16, 2003)

Capellan said:
			
		

> *I'm going to break from tradition and on this thread and not recommend George R R Martin, because I suspect that if you dislike Robert Jordan (a sentiment I can wholly agree with) then you might not be Martin's biggest fan, either. *




I disagree. I was bored by Jorden during the first book and never read another. The Martin books are in another class and are really something special. They are not directly inspired by Tolkein but share some of the same interest in mass warfare.

They also tend to polarize people. Don't read them if you want your fantasy light hearted or Manichean. Do read them if you want a cynical take on a fantasy world in which life really is "nasty, brutish and short."


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## Shard O'Glase (Jan 16, 2003)

Since Martin seems t be on the lsit all the time I'll add my voice to the don't like crowd.  

   1.  I was bored to tears, and couldn't get into the book.  It is one of the very few books I never finished, and i've finished some really crappy books.

  2.  The characters are always described as multidimensional.  And if you mean throwing a bunch of unrealistic discordant traits together then yeah there multi dimensional.  I've found his characters to be even more unrealistic than Jordan's women.

For my must buy section of books I will enter the realm of light fantasy, and really dark fantasy with the same author.

Robert Asprin: Myth novels, love em, there light and fun to read, I can't count the nmber of times I've read the 1st 4.  This is the 1st series that reallt catapulted my reading habit.

   Thieves World, Asprin only is one of the authors in the series, but i like the books.  not all of them but since there are like a zillion that aint a surprise.


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## Pazu (Jan 17, 2003)

Lady Mer said:
			
		

> *Yeah, I've read Castle in the Air. I've read everything of hers I could get my hands on. She, along with Patricia C. Wrede and Susan Cooper, belongs in my 'Books I read as a kid that are still fun to read in my mid- 20's' category.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> *




Absolutely agree, although I approached Diana Wynne Jones (and Susan Cooper, for that matter) as "Books I should have read as a kid and am going to read now that I'm over 30"!  
(I preferred non-fiction as a kid.)

-- Pazu


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## Olive (Jan 22, 2003)

I just want to thank you all for all the recomendations you've made...

and i've started reading Martin's series. In fact I've just been on holiday in sydney and I finished the first one while I was up there. And I'm really enjoying it, so thanks... and now the title of this thread is wrong.

I've book marked this for next time I need some recommendations.


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## Mallus (Jan 22, 2003)

Shard O'Glase said:
			
		

> *2.  The characters are always described as multidimensional.  And if you mean throwing a bunch of unrealistic discordant traits together then yeah there multi dimensional.  I've found his characters to be even more unrealistic than Jordan's women.
> *




Hey Shard, can you go into some specific detail here? I'm not trying to change your mind regarding Martin's books, but you're the first person I've heard/read voice that particular opinion.


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## death tribble (Jan 23, 2003)

*My favourites*

I like Moorcock's Elric stuff but have not read the more recent stories
Robert E Howard's Conan.
The Wheel of Time books.
Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit.
Edgar Allen Poe
H P Lovecraft
The Wild Cards series that George RR Martin did.
David Weber's Honor Harrington books (although I have only finished upto book 6)
Laurrel K Hamilton's Anita Blake vampire books
Terry Pratchett
Julian May's Pliocene Quartet
Thomas Harris's Red Dragon, Silence of the Lambs and Black Sunday
John Connelly's 4 books about PI Charlie Parker. Very Dark.
Stephen King
Len Deighton
Mick Foley's Have a Nice Day (autobiography)
Christopher Lee's autobiography
David Eddings Belgariad and Mallorean books
Philip Jose Farmer's Riverworld books (Upto No 4)
Philip K Dick's The Man in the High Castle
Lieber's Lankhmar books
Tolstoy's War and Peace
Carl Hiasson
Bob Geldof's autobiography
Mary Gentle
The Illuminatus Trilogy
David Wingrove's Chun Kuo (but not book 8)
Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars Trilogy
Frank Herbert's first three Dune books
James Herbert
David Niven's autobiographies
Tom Baker's autobiography
Vincent Price's biography
Jeff and Michael Shaara's fictionalised account of the American Civil War
Patricia Cornwell's Scarpetta books
Livy
Caleb Carr's The Alienist
The Magician by Fiest but avoid Serpentwar particularly the last book until someone proof reads and corrects the mistakes.
Robin Hobb's Farseer Trilogy
Spider Robinson's Callahan Chronicles
Tad Williams Otherland books.
John Dickson Carr
Conan Doyle
Steven Erikson


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## Mortaneus (Jan 23, 2003)

If you like EXTREMELY visceral action, I highly recommend the two Kain books by Matthew Woodring Stover.  "Heroes Die" and "Blade of Tyshalle".

The author is a practicing martial artist, and his descriptions of fights are unbelievably descriptive (in a good way).


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## ColonelHardisson (Jan 24, 2003)

Olive, perhaps I missed it, but is English your native language? If it isn't, that might help explain some of the problems you've had with recommendations. The reason I ask is because for some reason I seem to remember that someone with a screen name like yours was originally from Italy or thereabouts. I could well be wrong, so if I am, sorry for the mistake.


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## theburningman (Jan 24, 2003)

> If you like EXTREMELY visceral action, I highly recommend the two Kain books by Matthew Woodring Stover. "Heroes Die" and "Blade of Tyshalle".





Haven't read _Heroes Die_ yet, but _Blade of Tyshalle_ kicked my ass up and down.  Not for everyone, but definitely one of the coolest anti-heroes I've ever read.


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## Mortaneus (Jan 24, 2003)

theburningman said:
			
		

> *
> 
> 
> Haven't read Heroes Die yet, but Blade of Tyshalle kicked my ass up and down.  Not for everyone, but definitely one of the coolest anti-heroes I've ever read. *




Heroes Die has possibly the single most bada$$ moment I've ever read in a book, when Kain confronts the elf who runs the bordello.  It's told from her perspective, and must be read to be believed.   It's a perfect example of what Epic-level intimidation skill can do.


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## Pylar (Jan 24, 2003)

*Another 2 cents from Pylar*

I don't look for earth shattering content, or a deep philosophical meaning to the fantasy books I read.  I vew them as an escape that helps me to relax.  I've read most of the stuff that has been mentioned up to this point, but like I said just my two cents..

Robert Jordon -  I've read all the WOT books, kinda addicted. And I plan to read to read the rest.  When I first read the books I really enjoyed the imagery, and description...now I think he is just trying to fill pages.  Was VERY disappointed with CoT. But there is a little part of me that is still convinced that the climax of the story will make them all worthwhile.

GRR Martin -  Great story. Lots of action, and I can honestly say there isn't a character in the story that had bored me.  About the only thing I didn't like was there there were so many characters to keep track off. Almost had to draw a chart to keep all the people straight. Found myself turning to the back of the book, just so I'd be sure who was allied with what family.

L E Modisett Jr. -  Recluse series -Order VS Chaos.  That's how I'd sum up those books. Another good read.  It's the only series I've read where the books are written in a reverse chronological order. Tending to go back a generation with each new book.

Juliet Mckenna - Her Einarinn books are fun (Thief's Gambit & The Swordsman's Oath)  The characters have some great development, don't tend to feel 2 dimentional like a lot of stories out there.

Robin Hobb -  Both the Farseer, and the Liveship books were wonderful.  Farseer books would probably appeal more to a hack n' slash fan.  They tend to have a lot more action and intrigue.  Liveship books were more political, and were based a lot more on character development then action.  

Terry Goodkind - The first couple of books in his Sword of Truth series is NOT for the weak hearted.  VERY graphic, bloody. Not for children.  After getting over the graphic nature of thos books and taking it into context I found I really enjoyed it.  The following books in the series were much less graphic, and I admit that I missed that quality.  Mord Sith Rule! 

David Farland -  His Runelord series was ok.  It has a very unique magic system in this world, dealing with taking attributed from others to make nobles, and warriors stronger, faster, more attractive and so on.  It's great when I can find a series that differs from the normal fireball and lightning bolt type of magic.

Sean Williams -  I've read a couple of his series. Very character driven, then tend to be VERY slow starters but are worth the effort in the end.

David Eddings - Great for the novice reader. Serve as a wonderful introduction to the fantasy genre.  The Belgariad was one of the first series I read.  Hardcore fantasy readers might not enjoy them as much cause the stories tend to be a bit basic.

Dennis McKiernan -  His books felt like reading a BAD remake of Tolkien...right down to the hobbits...excuse me the Warrows.  His series have HUGE similarities to LOTR I kept wondering when Legolas was gonna pop up.  Also most of the stories deal with characters Traveling everywhere.  Long drawn out descriptions of people marching..BORING

David Drake -  I've enjoyed his King of the Isles series.  Very easy read, nice conflict.  I also like the fact that the books can stand alone. Each of the books in the series deal with the conflict that appears in that book.  The entire series is linked by main characters and how they hand the conflict that affects the Isles.

Raymond Fiest - I'd probably recommend this to another new fantasy reader..especially if they liked Eddings.  Similar feel, especially dealing with the 'Comming of Age' aspects of the stories. I also liked the way he delt with military tactics in his books, and how mercenary bands worked together.  Great background stuff for a D&D campaign.

Last but certianly not least. JRR TOLKIEN!  The father of modern fantasy. THANK YOU!

Well that's about all the authors I can remember, or have in my library now.  I tend to keep books by authors I at least somewhat enjoyed.  The ones I couldn't stand got sold back to my local used bookstore to help feed my habit for fiction.  And unfortunatly at 2 am I can't seem to remember them.


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## Shard O'Glase (Jan 24, 2003)

Mallus said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Hey Shard, can you go into some specific detail here? I'm not trying to change your mind regarding Martin's books, but you're the first person I've heard/read voice that particular opinion. *




I'm not sure I can anymore.  It was at least 3 years ago now when I read it.  If I can find the copy I have I'll try to give it a quick re-read to refresh my memory.


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## Olive (Jan 25, 2003)

ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> *Olive, perhaps I missed it, but is English your native language? If it isn't, that might help explain some of the problems you've had with recommendations. The reason I ask is because for some reason I seem to remember that someone with a screen name like yours was originally from Italy or thereabouts. I could well be wrong, so if I am, sorry for the mistake. *




Hi Col, I'm from New Zealand, living in Australia so yeah my native language is English. My spelling also sucks which may have resulted in this impression.


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## ColonelHardisson (Jan 25, 2003)

Olive said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Hi Col, I'm from New Zealand, living in Australia so yeah my native language is English. My spelling also sucks which may have resulted in this impression. *




My apologies; I must be misremembering.


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## Olive (Jan 26, 2003)

ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> *
> 
> My apologies; I must be misremembering. *




no problem


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