# These are not stories!



## papa_laz (Oct 12, 2002)

Over the course of scanning the numerous 'stories' in these forums, I have come to the conclusion that most of the people here dont understand the meaning of the word story.

Yes, I know that these are simply translations of DnD games into text, and im sure that for those involved in the campaigns are the ones getting the most out of the Story Hours. However, for those of us who are looking for a good, entertaining read, there is sadly not much to be found.

For a start, nearly every Story hour writer insists on defining the history and personality of the characters involved before the story even begins. While this does enable the players to have input, it makes for boring reading. For a party with 4 characters, theres 4 pages of preliminary reading that must be done before anything exciting begins to happen. 

The same applies to the history/geography/politics of the campaign setting. For the stories to actually be stories all the above mentioned aspects should be defined between the beginning and ending of the story. The characters and the world they live in should be fleshed out as the story progresses and not simply 'defined' beforehand. 

You will not find any book written by a sane person that sets out the character out of the context of the storyline. This is for the simple reason that as the reader learns more about the characters intent and past they will be drawn in. It is like a clean slate for the reader, and as the story progresses, the different characters are built up in the readers mind. But if you set about revealing the character in full at the beginning of the story then there is no suspense, no real motive to continue reading.

Another thing I have noticed, is that even after wading through endless pages of uninteresting garbage, the story is nearly always told in a linear form, and thus it takes several pages to get to the good stuff.

Why do you all (sorry about the generalisation) insist on doing this? The key rule to any short story is to start off with the action to draw in the readers and then introduce the plot and intrigue to keep them reading. 

For example; instead of narrating the clerics instructions from the high priest, first tell of his entrance into the catacombs and his fight against the cultists. Then relate it back to the instructions he was given by the church etc. and whether he has suceeded in his mission. This way the reader will be drawn in as our hero gets down into the gritty action.

Im sorry if those post sounded a bit harsh. I know that the reason for the untraditional method of storytelling is due to the fact that you are for the most part narrating a DnD game. But I dont see that as any reason for not making it interesting and exciting by telling a proper tale. 

For people uninvolved in your campaign, it is much more interesting and enjoyable to read the story as a story, rather than as unassembled ideas.

The best example of a proper story I have seen is The Ruined Ones Scarred Lands story hour. This totally sucked me in and kept me reading because it was set out nicely (with different colours for dialogue) and did not waste time getting into the story with character profiles etc.

I believe if everyone followed this advice the quality of the Story hour forums would be greatly improved.

Thankyou


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## Piratecat (Oct 12, 2002)

Over the course of reading your post, I have come to the conclusion that you're being a hostile, inflammatory jerk.  Starting a "helpful suggestion"/criticism thread with a blanket insult is perhaps the most ill-advised thing you can do.  Do you realize how deeply you're going to offend people with this post? Helpful criticism might be useful, but referencing "endless pages of uninteresting garbage" is not.

Look, if it isn't obvious, most of these are not stories in the tradional sense. They are not books. The are gaming campaigns, often brilliant ones, and they are works in progress written by people who are generally exercising their prose skills for the first time. They're fun. They're exciting. But most folks aren't trying to be Hemingway. 

We'd love it if you stayed, poked around, found threads you enjoy and follow them regularly. I'd love it even more if you started your own for your Hextor campaign and proved your talent to the community.  But if this doesn't work for you, you're probably better off at your local library.  Coming here and saying that there "isn't much to be found" when looking for a good entertaining read isn't just rude, it's blatantly incorrect.  There are more than a half dozen threads that I consider much better than most fantasy novels I own. 

You give some decent advice sandwiched between the petty jibes.  Nevertheless, the impression people will get from reading your post is that you're less interested in helping people than you are excited to be deliberately insulting folks who put hundreds of hours into something that you get for free. I find that disappointing, and I hope you'll consider rephrasing your post to be less combative.

I won't close this right now, partially because I think other authors and story hour fans may want to offer their opinions. I will remind folks that *no matter how upset you may be, the normal propriety rules of EN World apply.*  No swearing, no personal insults. It's just possible that this may turn into a constructive dialogue.  Let's find out.


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## Milo Windby (Oct 12, 2002)

I'm not angry at this post.  Just very sad that someone would take that much time out of their day to put down people that work hard at entertaining those that _wish_ to be entertained.  We don't ask you to read our story hours if you're not interested.  If you'd like to offer actual constructive feedback, I'm sure you'd find some receptive readers.  But as PC said, the blanket statements made in your post are certainly not constructive.  I'd probably go as far as to say this post was a troll, that or you really don't know what this forum is about.

Let me outline some general information for you:

1) The story hours contained here don't generally start from the beginning.  Thus your complaint about the character bios and history is frivolous.  Without that background information you would never know how the characters got to the point they are in the story hour.  Not to mention the story hour author would be taking many liberties if he/she were to write the background throughout the story since most of the content would not fit with what is actually happening at the time.  

2) These are linear because that is the way a DnD game is played.  Your 'suggestion' to launch straight into action then follow up with plot development would only last for the first session post.  After which all that would follow would be linear progression because most story hour authors are writing from successive sessions.  They don't know what is going to happen next, the session hasn't even been played.  Another point is that many authors are writing what amounts to a journal of their campaign in story format.  Journals are linear by nature.  X happened which led to Y which caused Z.  

3) What you consider unexciting others here wait for with baited breath.  You are entitled to your opinion, but I for one would appreciate it if you voiced it elsewhere.  

Your generalizations are insulting and your 'constructive critisism' is nothing more than thinly veiled contempt for the hard work we authors have put into this form of literature.  If you'd like to give us feedback please put more consideration into the form of work you are critiquing.  You can't judge a fictional novel by the same guidelines that you would judge poetry, don't try to fit the story hours here into the same kind of narrow perception.


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## Gospog (Oct 12, 2002)

*Baited Breath*

Papa_Laz,

I look forward to your Story Hour.  It sounds like you are an expert and really know what you're doing, not to mention what we should be doing.

I look forward to reading your Story Hour (before the rights are bought for a major motion picture, of course) and seeing "how it's done".  

I think you make an excellent point.  We Story Hour authors simply do not devote enough time and effort to our write-ups.  Before you inspired me, I felt that my time was better spent creating an exciting and fun game for my players.  Thank you for setting me straight.

By the way, you might want to check out www.rpg.net.  Unlike these boards, they welcome inflamatory posts and people who post before thinking.  Have fun.


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## Sniktch (Oct 12, 2002)

*Here, here!*

Good statements, Piratecat.  I'm glad you replied to this thread before I saw it, as I might not have been able to comment as calmly as you were.

papa_laz, Piratecat is absolutely right.  I don't know about other Story Hour writers, but I don't see this forum as an area to write a novel, but some place where I can exercise my creative muscles and get used to the discipline of sitting down in front of a keyboard and typing 2-3 pages a day.  I applaud the efforts of all the aspiring writers here - they show bravery and talent simply in their willingness to share their work.  This is not an easy thing for people to do, and the fastest way to kill a young writer's dreams is to dismiss their work out of hand.  Offer constructive criticism, not degrading insults.  Or show restraint and don't comment at all.

In a lot of cases, I appreciate the character backgrounds at the beginning of the stories.  A D&D game is going to skip a lot of the character development stage you find present in a novel, simply because the DM and players want to get into the action and play, not spend hours worrying about the exact sequence of events that got their characters involved in the story.  Some threads start in the middle of an ongoing campaign and have already passed by the defining moments in a character's career.  Besides, I have quite a few fantasy novels on my shelf where the first page consists of one paragraph blurbs describing the characters.

I don't come to the Story Hour boards looking for a good novel to read, and I don't expect the threads to follow the same pattern as a published novel or story - I come to check out the fascinating characters people have developed and to see how other people are playing the game.  Sometimes my goal is to find interesting ideas to "borrow" for my own game.  The fact that so many of the threads are entertaining reads is a bonus as far as I'm concerned.  Hats off to the many creative talents, far too numerous to list here, that keep me coming back over and over again.


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## Enkhidu (Oct 12, 2002)

I'll try and field this one:

My friend, the story hour forum is full of a unique form of fiction that I like to call campaign journals. These are not short stories or novels in the strictest sense, becasue that is not what a large portion of the audience wants.

Let me give you an example, using Piratecat's story hour:

To put it succinctly, Piratecat's DMing skills are among the best. This is not because I say so, or Bob down the street says so, this is because the RPGA has recognized him time and again as one of the best DM's in the organization. 

Because of this, there are a lot of people out there, including me, who like to see how he handles his particular campaign. Therefore, I don't mind that he uses gamespeak for certain things - in fact I like it, because I, and many others, want to see the game mechanics in action.


Now, having said that, there are several story hours that do follow the standard story conventions: For example, aside from the short story dramatis personae that he provides at the beginning, ForceUser's Vietnamese Story Hour is a standard follow the plot story, and is magnificent in it's own right, and Sepulchrave's series of story hours are nothing short of briliant, using dialogue, action, and intricate plotlines to pull in the reader. And (because this post would not be complete without a plug for my own story hour), the Small Beginnings story hour, by myself and D'Shai, has - get this - no direct exposition. We like to think of it as a fantasy adventure serial.

My point is that there is a ton of good material in this forum, whether or not you realize it. Not all of it may tickle your fancy, but that doesn't make it any less valid as a form of fiction.

So please, stick around and check out some more of the story hours, you might be more than a bit surprised at what you find.


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## Ruined (Oct 12, 2002)

Ack!!  Hey papa_laz, I'm glad you like my Story Hour and all, but please don't attack these other guys and then praise me. That's not exactly the kind of publicity I want starting off.  

Everybody has different styles of writing, and everyone is entitled to want to read different story hours. I myself read several of the story hours on this forum avidly, and the styles differ dramatically. I think the other guys have outlined pretty good responses, so I won't rehash what they've said.

That being said, I just want my story hour to stand on its own merit. Not attract attention by demeaning all of its friendly rivals.

Jeez...


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## Quartermoon (Oct 12, 2002)

IMHO, this thread was started just to see if a flame war could be ingited.  Everybody knows what these story hours are, and everybody knows some of the most passionate EN Boarders post/read here regularly.

Sorry, we're not biting.


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## Pyske (Oct 13, 2002)

*Re: Baited Breath*

Bearing in mind that this is amatuer fiction, I must say that I have actually been quite impressed with the quality of the writing on this forum.  Admittedly, the stories are often transcripts of peoples games, but I have found nearly all of them more interesting that the typical "let me tell you about my character" stories that I hear off the top of peoples head at conventions and get-togethers.

So let me simply say that I appreciate everyone's efforts here, and someday, SOMEDAY, I shall find time to work my way through all of them.  Of course, I'll probably be retired by then, but that's beside the point.   Thanks to everyone who has taken the time to write for my enjoyment.  I hope that someday I will find the time and self-discipline to return the favor.

 . . . . . . . -- Eric

PS -- Gospog:  Do you feel that the slap at another site added to the quality of your post?  If not, would you mind reconsidering its inclusion?


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## willpax (Oct 13, 2002)

Several weeks (months? Time passes strangely after child #2) ago I posted a small poll to attempt to get some sense of what people who read the story hours looked for in a good one. Although the response was smaller than I hoped, there was a fairly clear consensus that most people wanted, not straight story, but a balance between "story" style and a recognition of game elements, although there was some small disagreement over where the ideal balance was. 

That poll (and the responders to this thread) would suggest that we see the story hour as a separate genre from fantasy fiction, with its own considerations of excellence and suitability. Like all living genres, there is ample flexibility for a variety of approaches within a few general guidelines. One central guideline, I believe, is that a reader should be able to gain some sense of the game from her or his reading. If gaining that "sense of the game" requires character backgrounds, setting exposition, occasional narratorial intrusions, and lapses in pacing, then so be it. 

I read several story hours and have sampled many more; I enjoy most of them. I don't try to compare them to novels, because they aren't novels. Most of us recognize that a good novel and a good roleplaying plot are very different critters, although both are enjoyable. 

Just my 2 cents.


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## Nightfall (Oct 13, 2002)

theRuinedOne said:
			
		

> *Ack!!  Hey papa_laz, I'm glad you like my Story Hour and all, but please don't attack these other guys and then praise me. That's not exactly the kind of publicity I want starting off.
> *




Don't worry Ruined. I don't hold you responsible for this guy not mentioning my story hour.


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## Dr Midnight (Oct 13, 2002)

What was the name of that song by Denis Leary again?

Goodness me. I'd love to offer something scathing, but P-cat said it best: "the impression people will get from reading your post is that you're less interested in helping people than you are excited to be deliberately insulting to folks who put hundreds of hours into something that you get for free."

As someone who starves and scrapes for any little piece of appreciation I can get from readers of my story hour, I feel like here's yet another reason to let those "why do I do it?" thoughts get more stage time in my head.


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## Grazzt (Oct 13, 2002)

Wow. This thread reminds me of this thread:

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27472


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## DanMcS (Oct 13, 2002)

Grazzt said:
			
		

> *Wow. This thread reminds me of this thread...*




How so?  You mean, they're both trolls, both threads should be closed, and both originating accounts deleted (do they do that here?).  Then yeah, I agree with you.


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## Dragongirl (Oct 13, 2002)

DanMcS said:
			
		

> *How so?  You mean, they're both trolls, both threads should be closed, and both originating accounts deleted (do they do that here?).  Then yeah, I agree with you.   *




I agree.


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## Celtavian (Oct 13, 2002)

*Re*

This thread is a waste of time and the criticism was not solicited by any author here that I know of. 

If any of the author's want advice on how to improve their story hours, I am sure that they can e-mail Papa Laz for information on how to do so. 

Pathetic Papa Laz. You had no good reason for posting this considering these story hours are free and you can choose which story hours you want to read. No one asked for a critique and thus there was no reason for one to be given. You just want to feel superior.


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## Dinkeldog (Oct 13, 2002)

I agree with laz 100%!  In fact, I won't pick up any published novels (which of course aren't good because they're not written like good short stories) unless the publisher uses a different color text for dialogue.  </sarcasm>

Besides, everyone knows that cntxt's Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil is the best story hour this forum has ever had.  

Edit:  Oh, and I should add that to my knowledge precisely one (1) story hour is written by a professional writer, and I really like that one.


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## Wulf Ratbane (Oct 13, 2002)

Awww, come on Piratecat.

Everybody knows the only sure way to finish off a troll is with flames.


Wulf


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## Snoweel (Oct 13, 2002)

Which one Dink?

Anyway, I've gotta say that papa_laz has a point, re: that they're not novels, and on most occaisions one does have to wade through (endure) a few boring paragraphs before one is truly sucked in, but *COME ON*!!!!!!!!!

It's frickin' _Story Hour_!!!!

For starters it's written *for free* by a bunch of people who just want to share their good times with others. You think it takes a long time to read Story Hour? It takes much longer to write one.

On top of that, it *is* the narration of a d20 campaign, which means that it's more real than a novel - kinda like the thrill of seeing a real-life snuff film as opposed to watching Arnie blow legions of stunt-men and extras away in a fictional movie.

Therefore, a _Story Hour_ story has its own charm over a novel.

Not only that, but it's probably the best DMing advice one could find anywhere short of sitting in on a session.

And I think they really are entertaining - while the Ruined One's story hour IS the best written, there are others, like Nemmerle, who is an atrocious writer, but whose Story Hour is probably the best on here, by virtue of his !33+ DMing skillzzz and his brilliant setting of Aquerra.

P.S. I was joking about the merits of snuff-films. I saw one once, titled "Real Life Executions". I wish I never saw it, I just can't forget. It was awful.


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## Kai Lord (Oct 13, 2002)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *Over the course of reading your post, I have come to the conclusion that you're being a hostile, inflammatory jerk.*





			
				Piratecat said:
			
		

> *I will remind folks that no matter how upset you may be, the normal propriety rules of EN World apply.  No swearing, no personal insults.*


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## Gospog (Oct 13, 2002)

Psyke,

The end of my post wasn't intended to be inflamatory.  Although I realize the tone of my post was probably slightly inappropriate, I honestly feel that pap_laz would find RPG.net more to his liking than ENWorld.

From his post, I know he will find plenty of like-minded individuals there.  My apologies if my comment offended you.  With the exception of the message board, RPG.net is a fine site, and it wasn't my intent to offend it or anyone else.

In conclusion, my apologies to all posters for nibbling at this flame-bait.  My bad.


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## Existence (Oct 13, 2002)

Hmmm...it's interesting really. The only post that hasn't gone completely nuts at this Newbie's comments was made by an Aussie. Just a thought. Any way, Lord Kai, very perceptive. As for you Papa_Laz, you raise a few good points, but you needed to be a bit fairer on these people...and as for you people, how can you expect this newbie to come back to ENworld after the flamming he's got? It's not fair on Papa_Laz, give him a break.


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## Dinkeldog (Oct 13, 2002)

I take offense to that!  I didn't go completely nuts.  I just ridiculed his thought process that these should be professional quality and all follow the format of a short story.  Then I dissented on his choice of best story.

Oh, and was I wrong?  Do you know another professional writer here?


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## Malachai_rose (Oct 13, 2002)

*...*

Lock it down and move it out... this thread is just like old yeller, it needs to be put down
Seriously though anything constructive that was gonna come out of this post has already happened, lets all just move on and go back to writing pages of garbage for Papa Laz (or somethin like that) to wade through


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## drnuncheon (Oct 13, 2002)

papa_laz said:
			
		

> *However, for those of us who are looking for a good, entertaining read, there is sadly not much to be found.*




Man, all I have to say is this:

Piratecat: 184569 views (not counting the Early Years).
Wulf: 70550 views.
Sepulchrave II: 43450 views (at least, I may have missed one)
Sagiro: 37605 views.

Surely these guys must be doing _something_ right.

J
(Me: 9370 views. Woo!)


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## Crimson_Blade (Oct 13, 2002)

Dear laz, we are extremely sorry you do not find the EN World Story Hour enjoyable. To compensate you, Morrus has decided to reduce your fee pf EN World's messageboards from $0 to $0. Further, I am working on a time machine so that you may regain the time you lost when you chose to read these Story Hours. Please accept my apologies.


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## Milo Windby (Oct 13, 2002)

Existence said:
			
		

> *Hmmm...it's interesting really. The only post that hasn't gone completely nuts at this Newbie's comments was made by an Aussie. Just a thought. *



What's this supposed to mean?  Are there two trolls in this thread?  Regardless, I agree with Malachai_rose.  This should be closed.  I think this thread lost its constructive possibilities the moment it was started.


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## the Jester (Oct 13, 2002)

Well, Papa, if you don't find the story hours to be entertaining, I suggest that you don't read 'em.  Nobody's holding a gun to your head (or are they??).

Also, if you want to show us how you feel a good story hour ought to read, by all means, post one.

Finally, I go out of my way to try to avoid offending people when I post here.  This community consists of a mere *eight people* who each have hundreds or thousands of user names.  By insulting one of us, you're *automatically* insulting a large percentage of us.  Clearly, as a newbie with no other supporters, you're number nine on the boards; well, the reason there are only eight of us is because when outsiders come along and be insulting we all post using all our various identities and scare them away.  I hate to see that happen until someone really proves that they're useless (why, it was just a few months ago that there were only seven of us), so why don't you relax and try to be nice?  Maybe you can be number nine with hundreds of user names in a few months; but I doubt whether you'll last if you keep the superior tone going.

[/tongue in cheek]


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## (contact) (Oct 14, 2002)

Wait a minute, y'all.

I think papa_laz has given us a valid critique, even if it is lacking in diplomacy!  Sometimes the voices that are the most blunt and critical are the most useful, if not the most pleasant.

Unfortunately, this isn't one of those times.    You missed the boat, papa-- in fact you missed the whole ocean, and I'll tell you why.



> *I distilled papa_laz's major specific critiques to the following:*
> 
> For a start, nearly every Story hour writer insists on defining the history and personality of the characters involved before the story even begins . . .
> 
> ...




For the record, your suggestion above is generally accepted as good advice.  Got it.  If we were writing a short story anthology set around a game world, like the Wild Cards anthology, for example, we would certainly want to follow your advice.

But our stories have a different format, because they are arising from a different condition and are written for a different audience.

-----------------------------------

1.  The stories are about D&D games.

2.  The audience plays D&D games.

3.  D&D games operate on a set of assumptions and conditions that must be taken into account:

3a.  Those conditions are:  The players bring pre-created characters to the table.  The DM brings a campaign world to the table, about which there is supposed to be a "level playing field" of knowledge.

3b. The stories do not unfold within the crative say-so of a single individual, but are a group effort.

3c. There is no way to 'revise' plot elements once they have taken place.  If you're a writer, ask yourself, how great are your first drafts?  In D&D, it's all a first draft, and there's up to five writers!

3d. D&D games are almost always linear.  

-----------------------------------

*Story hour posts should reflect all of these things*, in order to keep the context of the game in place.  I guarantee the reason that most of us read these stories is because we are intimately familiar with the challenges and limitations of my points above.  We love to see what other creative people do with the same sets of challenges and limitations.

So while your criticisms are valid for more traditional stories, they don't really apply to this forum.  Or rather, they are trumped by more central concerns.

But I’m preaching to the choir, right?  You said:



> *papa_laz:*
> I know that the reason for the untraditional method of storytelling is due to the fact that you are for the most part narrating a DnD game. But I dont (sic) see that as any reason for not making it interesting and exciting by telling a proper tale.




I think you are confusing “interesting and exciting” with more traditional short-story formats.  You say as much here, by suggesting that turning the D&D story-log into a “proper tale” is what will remedy the story hour’s problems.

I disagree.  I don’t read this forum to find great fiction (although I agree with Piratecat that there is some great fiction to be had here), I read this forum to see what my peers are doing with a hobby that I love.  A story-telling hobby, yes, but one with its own sets of limitations and opportunities.

I am actually less interested in a “proper” story, because I want to know how _the game_ went, not how well the author can tell a tale.  Does that make sense? 

-----------------------------------

I hope that makes sense to you, and thanks for the critique.  Feel free to check out any of my story hour threads (listed below).  If you don't think that I've managed to tell an interesting story within the context of this format, I'd be very interested to hear why you think I missed the mark.

*
The TOEE2, a retro story hour

The Liberation of Tenh (the TOEE2 continues)

The Risen Goddess
*


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Oct 14, 2002)

Last I checked, all it took to have a proper story was a beginning, middle, and end.  If you allow for _in medias res_, you can dispense with the beginning; most story hours are works in progress, so maybe no end yet -- but they're still stories.

Quality, however, is in the pen of the critic.


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## jonrog1 (Oct 14, 2002)

Why am I ticked off?

It's not that you criticized the stories.  It's that you treated the writers like fifth graders in need of correction regarding their "What I Did Last Summer " essay, and you were the benevolent teacher just trying to bring the best out in them.  "Oh, such simple rules.  Just a few steps to improvement.  Oh, if only you understand narrative structure as I do ..."

I write for a living.  I rarely bring this up, but the amount of money I get paid to write for a living is not inconsiderable.  I don't know if I have talent, but people I consider talented like my stuff, so I'll at least say I'm in the ballpark.  

I would never, NEVER take the tone you took with my fellow writers on this board.

The more rational voices here have kept us from a flame war.  But as (I assume) the only professional writer on these boards, I'll do the dirty work.  You, papa_laz, are neither as knowledgeable nor insightful as you would like to think you are.

These.  Are. Stories.

I'm not going to try to convince you.  I'm not going to try to win you over.  I'm not going to be reasonable.  I don't care if this was only a troll.  I'm grabbing you by the intellectual lapels and saying very quietly-- being careful to make sure my spittle lands directly on your trembling corneas-- that ...

... These. Are. Stories.

They're not constructed the way you prefer, but many tell tales of interesting characters doing interesting things.  That's a story.  Period. 

The rather odd structure is a product of the continuing narrative style of a campaign; the variant world-structures often need a quick explanation to avoid whackloads of boring exposition during the tale.   You may be correct -- that structure recurs quite frequently, and isn't exactly lemony-fresh.

But no matter how, where or when you choose to begin the narrative, I can find an example from classical literature, film, or my bastard beloved medium television which begins in exactly the same way. 

One could even argue that the "opening credits" of television shows are their world-establishing prologues ... "Ahh, there's the blonde girl, she hunts, well I guess vampires, and those are her friends -- wait, he's a vampire, his head went all bumpy, I guess he works with them though ... and there's the gang of them walking together.  Okay, start today's story."  Annnnd out.

Never mind _Apocalypse Now_, where they actually march Martin Sheen into the office, tell him what he's going to do for the rest of the movie, and then send him off to do ... exactly that.

Not a story, that?  Not a tale well told, that?

The only thing I hate worse than condescending pseudo-intellectuals are condescending pseudo-intellectuals who haven't properly thought out their theses.

I rarely grow angry when reading board posts, but I need to say this:  there is nothing harder to do than write.  NOTHING.  Directing, you have a script to work from,  Acting, you have the script as a guideline.  Any writer, any_one_ who offers up their imagination, who takes the leap of faith to forge images and characters in our minds through nothing but cunning combinations of simple words well chosen, that person demands respect.

Some of the writers on these boards are very, very bad. Some of them are very, very good.  Some of them make me very glad they're not competing for the same jobs I am.

All of them, from the simple act of actually heaving words and ideas around and slapping them down for others to see, have more of a right to their opinions on how writing works than you do.

I leave you with the secret motto of every writer on the planet:

Type or shut up.



_No pseudonyms,

John Rogers_


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## Breakstone (Oct 14, 2002)

jonrog, I like you.


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## Blood Jester (Oct 14, 2002)

All I have to say is, every time I try a new story hour that someone recommends, my number one complaint is...

THEY DON'T POST QUICKLY ENOUGH!!!

They _DRAW_ me in, get me _HOOKED_, and then I have to WAIT!!!

I've read a huge amount in my life, and I respect the writers here so, to them...

Thank you for you efforts.


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## Wulf Ratbane (Oct 14, 2002)

jonrog1 said:
			
		

> *...who takes the leap of faith to forge images and characters in our minds through nothing but cunning combinations of simple words well chosen *




Wa-hey, there's some now! 

Nice. Are those yours? They have a Steven King "On Writing" feel to them. I hope you take that as the huge compliment it's meant to be!


Wulf


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## jonrog1 (Oct 14, 2002)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Nice. Are those yours? They have a Steven King "On Writing" feel to them. I hope you take that as the huge compliment it's meant to be!*




Yes, mine, for what they're worth -- I'm Irish, and in my folk, annoyance breeds eloquence.

Now, get back to your Story Hour!


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## Metus (Oct 14, 2002)

Bah.  I'm getting such troll vibes from this post that it threatens to overwhelm me.  I think papa laz was bored one day and went fishing for responses the hard way.  I'm surprised anyone even responded to this post.  I have to care before I can be bothered, and all I have towards this is apathy.

Which brings me to my main reason for posting.  I enjoy all the story hours I read immensely, and am always appreciative of the fact that Wulf, Nemm, Sagiro, Sep and all the others take the time to write the adventures of their groups.  But I think I've already said that before.


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## Snoweel (Oct 14, 2002)

Existence said:
			
		

> *Hmmm...it's interesting really. The only post that hasn't gone completely nuts at this Newbie's comments was made by an Aussie. Just a thought. *




Once you've spent enough time on here, you'll realise that yanks take themselves a bit more seriously than we do.

It's a cultural thing.


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## Malachai_rose (Oct 14, 2002)

*...*

Can you hear it ? The small voice crying out from the sea of incensed and angered authors...

It's this thread, it's crying out to Piratecat to put it down... No more posts from me (at least on this thread ). Lets all shift our attentiom from the flame bait of Papa Luz and back to the *large* number of well written stories in the forum. 

Anyways I realize people are mad, and rightly so, but I think we all can agree that Papa Luz was misguided and ill informed in his initial post. So lets all just move along <best police officer voice> nothing to see here. 

May seem kinda funny me posting asking people to stop posting but I don't like to think myself in a circle pondering stuff like that to often  It tends to make my gray matter sore the next day, heh. So my spurious logic aside why don't we do what needs to be done. Let this post die like a mentally handicapped death row inmate in Texas (I live in Texas  I can joke about it, lol).


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## Wulf Ratbane (Oct 14, 2002)

Snoweel said:
			
		

> *Once you've spent enough time on here, you'll realise that yanks take themselves a bit more seriously than we do.
> 
> It's a cultural thing. *




You fail to account for the vast numbers of yanks who read the post, summed it up as a troll, and decided it wasn't worth the effort. 

From a purely statistical standpoint, the evidence is clear that aussies are more prone to fall for trolling and flame-bait.


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## Wizardry (Oct 14, 2002)

jonrog1 said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I rarely grow angry when reading board posts, but I need to say this:  there is nothing harder to do than write.  NOTHING.  Directing, you have a script to work from,  Acting, you have the script as a guideline.  Any writer, anyone who offers up their imagination, who takes the leap of faith to forge images and characters in our minds through nothing but cunning combinations of simple words well chosen, that person demands respect.
> *





No, really, it's the actors who have the toughest job and deserve the most respect.  Do you realize there is nothing harder than getting out in front of a huge audience and doing your damn best just to impress them, and having them laugh in your face?  

But wait, now that I think about it, maybe it's directing that is the toughest job of all.  You have to constantly manage the actors, the filming, and so on, and if you don't get it right, everyone rags on you for doing a bad job.  That must be the hardest.  

And so on.  Look, I respect that you really love your profession, and I can see you take it seriously, but claiming that there is nothing in the world harder than doing what you do is not very accurate and a bit self martyring.  I know plenty of people who would do almost anything to be able to write for a living.  Living off of your imagination and writing skills is a helluva lot easier than, say, digging ditches, for an extreme example.  Everyones job is tough in their own way.  No offense intended, of course.

Regardless, and back on topic...  I really disagree with the original posters statement.  I find plenty of stories on this board are great work, and a few of them are better than most professional work I've seen.  The format makes for a few defiencies in some areas, but it also gives a few bonuses.  These stories are some of the only ones I've read, for example, that have a distinct chance of the main character dying off.  Unpredictability is fun in it's own way.


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## jonrog1 (Oct 14, 2002)

Wizardry said:
			
		

> *
> 
> No, really, it's the actors who have the toughest job and deserve the most respect.  Do you realize there is nothing harder than getting out in front of a huge audience and doing your damn best just to impress them, and having them laugh in your face?*



Yes, I kind of picked that up during my twelve odd years of stand-up comedy, 200 live shows a year in front  of averaging 300 - 500 drunk, angry people.  Try not just eliciting _some_ emotional responses from an audience, but precisely the correct emotional response -- and the identical emotional response -- from those strangers.  Every 15 seconds.  For an hour.  Or you suck.

And if actors just stopped improvising and would just say the lines, things would go so much smoother... 



> *But wait, now that I think about it, maybe it's directing that is the toughest job of all.  You have to constantly manage the actors, the filming, and so on, and if you don't get it right, everyone rags on you for doing a bad job.  That must be the hardest.*



That's what 2nd AD's and DP's are for.  And somehow, sucky directors continue to work ...



> *And so on.  Look, I respect that you really love your profession, and I can see you take it seriously, but claiming that there is nothing in the world harder than doing what you do is not very accurate and a bit self martyring.*



I understand your reaction, and that you were being rhetorical -- but papa_laz hit a nerve, so I was (and still am) being snappy.  Please accept my responses with tongue planted firmly in cheek.

I will qualify my statement with "In the creative fields, I believe there is no job harder than writing." 

And if you don't believe that, then you haven't lived through a writer's strike.

I WAS going to leave it at that ...

You'll notice some undisguised snarkiness kicking around in your direction though.  Some of it is holdover from my anger at papa_laz, admittedly.  Immature.  I was feeling quite ashamed at myself until the next bit:



> *  I know plenty of people who would do almost anything to be able to write for a living.  Living off of your imagination and writing skills is a helluva lot easier than, say, digging ditches, for an extreme example.  Everyones job is tough in their own way.  No offense intended, of course.*




This leads me into a combination mini-rant/inspirational speech.  No offense intended, of course.

By an odd coincidence, whenever some writer friends and I get into a nasty situation in production, we look at each other and say, "We ain't moving boxes."

But we say that -- or at least I do, because I did that job.  And bartended, and worked a gas pipeline digging ditches, etc., etc.  And so I know the difference here.

Making a living writing is not easier.  It's _more pleasant_ once you're actually _doing it_, but not easier.  Seemingly a fine distinction, but that's what life is, a series of fine distinctions.

Leading us to the second qualified statement: "Writing for a living is not the hardest job in the world -- but it is incredibly, stupefyingly, exponentially harder than pretty much anyone thinks it is."

You "live off" an inheritance.  You "live off" a lottery win.

You don't "live off" your imagination and writing skills.  

If you have imagination and writing skills, you have the barest, barest tools necessary to pay your bills with them.  Now learn to harness that imagination with narrative structures, dialog techniques and industry-specific styles and tools.  

Then, fill blank pages.  Fill thousands of them.  And if you don't fill them, no co-worker will step in.  No union will help you.  And no one will care if you didn't fill them, and ask to help, or encourage you (except maybe a loved one.  Good for you, now get back to writing.).  Now every day, wake up and make something brand new.  Or don't get paid.  No sick days.  No day where you just sort of zone out and get by.  

Is writing digging ditches?  Not hardly, don't envy that job.  But a frikkin' artsy-fartsy life of dashing off a few thoughts before tea-time? Noooo.

Sure, being a writer isn't bad.  You could even say "easy" if you disregard the whole ten years on the way to becoming one.  But, sadly, that's kind of the package.

(Okay, we're getting to the inspirational part.)

If you want to write for a living, and you just don't have the talent, that sucks.   Nothing's more frustrating. 

But IF you have the talent and IF you have the skills, and you'd do "almost anything ..." then shut up and do "anything."  I HAVE NO SYMPATHY FOR YOU.

(That's inspirational?  Wait, wait, it's coming ...)

Because this is the one field where you don't have to know anybody, you don't have to have gone to school for it (I didn't, nor did most of my friends) or have any seniority.  You need to fill pages.  Ten minutes a day, fifteen minutes a day, for however many years.  Housewives with nine kids do it.  Commuters do it.  Guys in frikkin' PRISON CAMPS do it.

Come get this life.  Come take it away from me, and from every other professional writer, take it as your own.  Simple statistics say you're probably more talented than we are.  Write more pages, work harder and come tear this career from my bloated, bloody corpse and wave it triumphantly overhead.

(Hmm, very Warren Ellis-y today, no?)

Usually I'm Mr. Nicey-nicey on the boards.  But what the heck, for one day I'll be unapologetically opinionated.

So for those "plenty of people who would do almost anything to write for a living ..."

Type or shut up.

John


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## Existence (Oct 14, 2002)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> *
> 
> You fail to account for the vast numbers of yanks who read the post, summed it up as a troll, and decided it wasn't worth the effort.
> 
> From a purely statistical standpoint, the evidence is clear that aussies are more prone to fall for trolling and flame-bait. *




That doesn't even make sense! About 3 Aussies have posted on this thread, thus making the remainder from the States. Yes, that makes us far more prone to fall for trolling and flame-bait.   

Anyway, enough of this bickering!


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## Dr Midnight (Oct 14, 2002)

jonrog1 said:
			
		

> *there is nothing harder to do than write.  NOTHING.  Directing, you have a script to work from,  Acting, you have the script as a guideline.*




EDIT: He'd refined his statement by the time I posted this, but I'll leave this up...

I also disagree. I find writing to be maybe half as difficult as most things I've tried. I may not be paid for it, and so I've got no editor breathing down my paycheck, but I feel like I do an okay slap-around job. It's pretty easy. 

Now, comic book art... I've spent a lot of time doing that. You want to talk hard? Perspective, anatomy, inking, layout, storytelling, black placement, and so on... That shizzy has been far harder, for me, than any creative project I've taken a shot at. 

Writing is just letting it fall out of my head, by comparison.
---------------
Side note, for all the people coming in here scourging people who've responded, citing "just a troll"- Why? Please give it a rest. Turning the other cheek is fine if you want to do it. Don't try to shame everyone else into feeling less mature if they feel like stepping up to argue for something they love, even if the ends are all but futile.


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## drnuncheon (Oct 14, 2002)

Wizardry said:
			
		

> *I know plenty of people who would do almost anything to be able to write for a living.  Living off of your imagination and writing skills is a helluva lot easier than, say, digging ditches, for an extreme example.*




Correction: you know plenty of people who _say_ they would do almost anything to write for a living.  They like the _idea_ of being a writer more than they like being a writer, because if they liked being a writer that much, they'd be a writer.

I should know - I'm one of those people.  I had to come to that very dificult realization. I love to write, but I don't want to do it badly enough to do it as a full-time career.  I don't want the pressure.  I want to keep it as a hobby, so I can quit anytime I want, or blow it off anytime I want, and not have to be thinking 'there goes next week's groceries'.  So instead of frustrated bitter drn sending manuscripts out to Baen and Tor and all those other companies - you get the drnuncheon Story Hours.  They're not high literature, but hey, they're free, and they entertain a couple of people.

And speaking as someone with my big ol' one (1) sale, and as someone who has dug a ditch or two: digging ditches may be harder on the back, but there's no way it's a harder job.  The only reason I'm giving it a shot now is 'cos I'm severly underemployed.  Of course, jonrog said all this already, but hey, it bears saying again, from someone on the hobbyist side of the line.

J


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## Darklone (Oct 14, 2002)

Thumbs up for all the storyhour writers here. I like your stuff and many others do so too. And I know that many of you guys are often asking for criticism. 

If anyone like Papalaz or whoever would like to help, post at each thread with specific "help".

Now back to enjoying SHs.


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## DanMcS (Oct 14, 2002)

Existence said:
			
		

> *That doesn't even make sense! About 3 Aussies have posted on this thread, thus making the remainder from the States. Yes, that makes us far more prone to fall for trolling and flame-bait.*




Ah, but you must account for percentages.  If a hundred more Americans posted to this thread, we would still be a statistically insignificant percentage of the US.  Whereas '3 Aussies', heck, that's a big city down there   So this guy better look out, he's got the whole of Australia coming after him!


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## Sammael99 (Oct 14, 2002)

*Short Story Shmort Story !*

Hey papa,

Good Troll, man...

I don't take offense at these comments that are so obviously meant to inflame without you having even read a snippet of one story hour, most likely.

However, I do take *major offense* at my story hour being called a short story. 

Friggin' hell ! It's something like 140 pages in 12 pt word. Call that a short story ???

*Call that a short story ???*


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## el-remmen (Oct 14, 2002)

Snoweel said:
			
		

> * there are others, like Nemmerle, who is an atrocious writer, but whose Story Hour is probably the best on here, by virtue of his !33+ DMing skillzzz and his brilliant setting of Aquerra.
> *




Uh, thanks. . . ?


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## Henry (Oct 14, 2002)

_*Henry puts down his copy of Four Colors to Fantasy, looks at Nemmerle and whispers:*_

Shhhh. I won't tell 'im if you won't!


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## (contact) (Oct 15, 2002)

Snoweel said:
			
		

> there are others, like Nemmerle, who is an atrocious writer, but whose Story Hour is probably the best on here . . .
> 
> ----------
> 
> ...




Snoweel means that while you are an _atrocious_ writer, you're still better than all the other story hour writers, who are even worse than atrocious.


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## Wizardry (Oct 15, 2002)

jonrog1 said:
			
		

> *
> I understand your reaction, and that you were being rhetorical -- but papa_laz hit a nerve, so I was (and still am) being snappy.  Please accept my responses with tongue planted firmly in cheek.
> *





No problem.  



> *
> I will qualify my statement with "In the creative fields, I believe there is no job harder than writing."
> 
> And if you don't believe that, then you haven't lived through a writer's strike.
> *





Well, I would disagree there.  From your point of view, writing seems to be the most difficult creative field to work in, but others would disagree.  Some people would find art or writing music much harder than writing well, for example.  It's all subjective, really.  



> *
> I WAS going to leave it at that ...
> 
> This leads me into a combination mini-rant/inspirational speech.  No offense intended, of course.
> ...





Well, again it depends on your subjective experience in the matter.  Some people would find writing much easier than digging ditches, and vice versa.  But the majority of people would prefer to be writing, because, as you said, it's more pleasant.



> *
> Leading us to the second qualified statement: "Writing for a living is not the hardest job in the world -- but it is incredibly, stupefyingly, exponentially harder than pretty much anyone thinks it is."
> 
> You "live off" an inheritance.  You "live off" a lottery win.
> ...





Another fine distinction?  I could argue a ditch digger is "living off" of his physical fitness and endurance.  I understand what you're saying, here, of course, and believe me, I know writing isn't easy and you don't get a free ride off of doing it.



> *
> If you have imagination and writing skills, you have the barest, barest tools necessary to pay your bills with them.  Now learn to harness that imagination with narrative structures, dialog techniques and industry-specific styles and tools.
> 
> Then, fill blank pages.  Fill thousands of them.  And if you don't fill them, no co-worker will step in.  No union will help you.  And no one will care if you didn't fill them, and ask to help, or encourage you (except maybe a loved one.  Good for you, now get back to writing.).  Now every day, wake up and make something brand new.  Or don't get paid.  No sick days.  No day where you just sort of zone out and get by.*





In your experience.  You're correct that you have no "sick days", but then again you don't have to be at work at a certain time every day, put in a certain amount of work, and then do it again the next day.  Writing is much more of a freeform experience, and it varies greatly from writer to writer.  




> *
> Is writing digging ditches?  Not hardly, don't envy that job.  But a frikkin' artsy-fartsy life of dashing off a few thoughts before tea-time? Noooo.
> 
> Sure, being a writer isn't bad.  You could even say "easy" if you disregard the whole ten years on the way to becoming one.  But, sadly, that's kind of the package.
> *





By the by, I'm mostly discussing this because I enjoy it, and I think you misunderstood the main thrust of my point, which I'll bring up now...  No job is easy, and no one job is in every way possible harder than other jobs available.  Some people will have an easy time in a job others struggle in, and vice versa.  But regardless of what career you choose to focus yourself in, you will encounter difficulties and hardships on the way to success, if you ever get there.  

A job is not something you do (unless you're very, very lucky) because you like/love to do it, you do it so you can get the money and financial independence to do what you really want to do in life.  I actually consider writing a "better" job than most because it's more likely than usual you actually enjoy what you do, but that doesn't mean it's "easy" or responsibility free.  But it most certainly isn't the "hardest" job out there, but of course almost no job can be qualified as the "hardest", since they all have their own unique problems and difficulties to be faced.  Which brings us to the next part of your post.  




> *
> (Okay, we're getting to the inspirational part.)
> 
> If you want to write for a living, and you just don't have the talent, that sucks.   Nothing's more frustrating.
> ...




You call that not being nicey-nicey?  Pffft.  You just don't have the "I am going to crush you with my words and leave you feeling insignificant and worthless" vibe you really need to have, here.  

Yes, it can be difficult to be a writer, but my point wasn't that writing was "easy", it was that writing isn't the hardest job in the world, and some people would love to be doing what you're doing.  As I said earlier, I consider writing to be a nicer job than most because you have a higher chance of actually liking what you're doing, but that doesn't change the fact work is work is work.  Any job can be hard, in it's own way, and the experience in each job varies from person to person.


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## Snoweel (Oct 15, 2002)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> *
> 
> You fail to account for the vast numbers of yanks who read the post, summed it up as a troll, and decided it wasn't worth the effort.
> 
> From a purely statistical standpoint, the evidence is clear that aussies are more prone to fall for trolling and flame-bait. *




Now, now, don't be a dope, Wulf.

If you wanna talk statistics, of all the posts in this thread, at least 2 were by Aussies.

But of all the flames, 0% were by my countrymen.

You do the maths, or what do you call it? Math?


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## Snoweel (Oct 15, 2002)

Dr Midnight said:
			
		

> *
> I also disagree. I find writing to be maybe half as difficult as most things I've tried. I may not be paid for it, and so I've got no editor breathing down my paycheck, but I feel like I do an okay slap-around job. It's pretty easy.
> *




I'm a bricklayer. It's hard. I won't get out of bed to lay bricks for less than AUS$30 an hour. Why can a stupid, uneducated man make that much money at a job?

Supply and demand - NOBODY wants to be a bricklayer.

It's hard.

Union? Co-workers?

I'm a sub-contractor. If I don't produce, I go hungry. Just like a writer.

HOWEVER!

I enjoy writing so much, I do it in my spare time. For free. You won't find many people who lay bricks "just for fun".

And as for write or shut-up: with up to 60 hours a week on-site, not to mention unpaid planning in my own time, and Uni at nights (I see how busted-up and soul-destroyed old brickies are, and I refuse to be arthritic, near-crippled and alcoholic by 40, hence I go to Uni), I don't currently have enough time to write as much as I need to to make a living from it.

Nor do I have enough faith in my ability to take the risk of quitting Uni, getting a job as a parking station attendant and freeing up all that time to make a fist of writing.

So, as I see it, writing: nice job, if you can get it.


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## Snoweel (Oct 15, 2002)

(contact) said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Snoweel means that while you are an atrocious writer, you're still better than all the other story hour writers, who are even worse than atrocious. *




No.


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## Piratecat (Oct 15, 2002)

I was going to close this, but... err... it's turned out to be kind of cool. I think Jonrog had me hooked when he started spitting on my corneas.


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## KidCthulhu (Oct 15, 2002)

Papa,  I have one rebuttal to your argument that these are not stories.  Consider for a moment you are out to dinner with some friends.  Your buddy turns to you and says "Hey, tell them the one about your brother in law and the labrador".  So you begin to tell.  First you must tell them a little about your stubborn, occasionally stupid brother in law, who is prone to acting long before he thinks.  Then, you have to tell them about the dog, how old it was, why your brother in law was alone with the dog, and how the situation came about.

Then you tell the tale, and everyone laughs.  And is this not a story?  Have you not told people about the characters and world ahead of time? Yep.  But in the very oldest and strongest hairy people sitting around the fire telling tales to keep the monsters at bay sense of the word, this is a story.  Take a look at the Homer and Virgil some day.  Look at the oldest folk tales known to man.  They tell you about the characters and the world first.  But they're just old hacks.  

And Jonrog, you're my hero.  When I used to be in the game design world, I used a similar phrase to yours, only I used to say "Yeah, I know you're a genius, but can you be a genius before five o'clock?" to address all those game design wannabes who thought it was all about waiting for the muse to dance in and goose them, rather than just working, day in and day out and producing as well as you can.


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## jonrog1 (Oct 15, 2002)

Wait, how did papa-laz skate by and now I'm the troll-er?

First off -- man was I cranky last night.  That'll teach me to post at 5 a.m. when I'm fighting insanely bad studio notes.

Wizardy, forgive the snappiness.  I'm just damn sick of the whole "wow, you're so lucky you get to make a living doing what you like" thing, so any argument even dipping into that realm tends to set me off, particularly at 5 am.

I am lucky I'm good at something.  I am lucky that at this point in history, being good at that "something" can occasionally pay very well as opposed to just paying the bills. 

But lucky to be _making a living_ doing what I like -- feh.  We all pay our prices for what we want.  That the end result is a decent life practicing your craft rather than a house, or new car, certain relationships, or kids didn't knock those prices down any.

Belief in luck is a crutch with a poison spike.

I don't know who these writer are who are living the "free-form experience" and who don't sweat blood on the page and didn't spend years honing their craft (and they're out there, I know, I know), but god bless 'em they are a tiny, tiny minority. 

But for the sake of settling this once and for all: yes, yes, many jobs are very hard in their own way.  _Mea culpa_



			
				Snoweel said:
			
		

> *
> And as for write or shut-up: with up to 60 hours a week on-site, not to mention unpaid planning in my own time, and Uni at nights (I see how busted-up and soul-destroyed old brickies are, and I refuse to be arthritic, near-crippled and alcoholic by 40, hence I go to Uni), I don't currently have enough time to write as much as I need to to make a living from it.
> 
> Nor do I have enough faith in my ability to take the risk of quitting Uni, getting a job as a parking station attendant and freeing up all that time to make a fist of writing.
> ...




"Type or shut-up" is a little out of context.  I meant it originally that papa-laz better show some actual chops before he went around critcizing anyone who laid their own words and self-images on the line.  If you want to write, write.  Doesn't matter if you get paid or not.  It just matters that you're putting it out there.

Now, in the context of "if you want to write *for a living, write*", don't misunderstand me.  That's a whooole different context.  

First, you're doing an amazing thing going to Uni -- you're changing your life and not just waiting for it to change.  Whatever you're going to Uni for, that's your goal, and when you get it , you'll be able to say "Put up or shut up" with pride.

But "if you want to write for a living, write" doesn't mean quit your job and write for a living *NOW*.  Not what I meant, and frankly  *that's insane* -- because if somebody does that without doing all the groundwork, they won't be *prepared* to write for a living.  It's like saying "if you want to play concert piano for a living, quit your job and play concert piano, without any practice."

Who in their right mind would think that?  No one.   So why do so many people quit their jobs to become writers full-time?  Lord, I don't know.  But  for some reason that's the stereotype of what you have to do to become a writer.  And it's crrrraaaappp, with a big Fat Bastard rolling "r" in the middle.

What I meant was "if you want to write for a living, begin the long, grueling process of filling all those pages" right now.  A page a day.  Three a day.  And then, eventually, one may have the luck (heh, point to Wizardy) to write for a living.

Okay, I'm done.  I said I was sorry, I clarified my positions, and I encouraged others to follow their dreams in a sane, sensible way.  Can I go back to being the pro who was defending his amateur pals as opposed to the arrogant bastard who doesn't understand how lucky he is to have this great career drop on his lap for free?


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## KidCthulhu (Oct 15, 2002)

Don't you _dare_ backpedal, jonrog.  You spoke the truth in a measured and intellegent way.  You were snarky, but in a polite and informed way.  You have done no wrong, and I, for one, loved watching you go to town on papa.  No blood, no foul.


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## Piratecat (Oct 15, 2002)

Serves you right for being more interesting than the thread's originator.


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## Mialee (Oct 15, 2002)

Writing is hard? 

Try posing for Sam Wood sometimes and feeling that little creep's eyes crawling all over you like graveworms. Ick.

Try putting up with Monte's endless kvetching about how an elf "just wouldn't WEAR her hair like that", and how I need to "braid it and put some leaves in there or something".

Try being Warren Reynolds' shoulder to cry on over rounds of Pabst Blue Ribbon whenever he gets his name misspelled in the latest supplement.

Peddle your pity party raffle tickets elsewhere, Jonrog. You don't know a hard profession until you're rendered in acrylic paint by some two-bit "I want to be the next Lockwood" schmuck fresh out of his community college's weekend painting 1 class.


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## coyote6 (Oct 15, 2002)

Maybe somebody just noticed that the Story Hour forum didn't have as many flamey threads as other forums here, and wanted to bring the average up.

As for Existence & Snoweel's nationality hypothesis -- I blame the beer. Plus, your pet koala bears and kangaroos are probably very soothing. Our grizzlies, mountain lions, and pit bulls aren't nearly as pacifying.


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## Piratecat (Oct 15, 2002)

Yes, it's probably time. I was hoping that the thread's originator would be brave enough to reemerge. Alas.

Thread closed.


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