# Into the Mother Lands: A Sci-fi RPG by PoC Designers



## Marc_C (May 20, 2021)

I think it uses the Cortex Prime rules.


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## Nikosandros (May 20, 2021)

Marc_C said:


> I think it uses the Cortex Prime rules.



Looking at the FAQs, it seems that the system has yet to be decided.



> Which rule set / system is the game going to use?
> 
> 
> We have the privilege of having a number of different options available to us.
> ...


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## Ixal (May 20, 2021)

Nikosandros said:


> Looking at the FAQs, it seems that the system has yet to be decided.



Is it normal for a kickstarter to not have decided on a system at this stage?
While the focus is obviously on the story and setting imo you get the best result when you write settings with a game system already in mind as otherwise you can always run into problems when something from the setting can't accurately be presented by the system.

Took me a while to realize (reading their kickstarter to be honest) that the names are all a reference to Mansa Musa (Munsa?). Considering that he was a devout Muslim, will this also be included in the game or will religion play a negligible role or be a futuristic/fantasy religion?


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## Grendel_Khan (May 20, 2021)

Ixal said:


> Is it normal for a kickstarter to not have decided on a system at this stage?
> While the focus is obviously on the story and setting imo you get the best result when you write settings with a game system already in mind as otherwise you can always run into problems when something from the setting can't accurately be presented by the system.




Yeah I feel like this is a huge red flag. And the fact that they're vaguely tying the system choice to stretch goals seems pretty sketchy/slapdash. System-neutral material is fine, but just say that's what it is from the start.


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## Bagpuss (May 20, 2021)

Nikosandros said:


> Looking at the FAQs, it seems that the system has yet to be decided.




Yeah not sure about backing a project that doesn't even know what system it is going to be for. Glad it has funded and if it is any good it will be available beyond Kickstarter and I'll pick it up when I know what system it works with.

Surely they have done some playtesting and gaming with some system during it's development?


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## Morrus (May 20, 2021)

Ixal said:


> Is it normal for a kickstarter to not have decided on a system at this stage?



A lot of projects have barely started work at this stage of a Kickstarter. It seems like a lot of work has already gone into this — heck, they’ve had a popular livestream for months. I’m sure they’ll choose the best system fit for the types of stories they want to tell. I feel pretty confident backing this one


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## Grendel_Khan (May 20, 2021)

Bagpuss said:


> Yeah not sure about backing a project that doesn't even know what system it is going to be for. Glad it has funded and if it is any good it will be available beyond Kickstarter and I'll pick it up when I know what system it works with.
> 
> Surely they have done some playtesting and gaming with some system during it's development?




They use Cortex Prime for the streamed games. Just seems odd to not commit to that, or to anything specific, before collecting pledges.


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## Bagpuss (May 20, 2021)

Morrus said:


> A lot of projects have barely started work at this stage of a Kickstarter.



I can't recall one  I've seen that didn't know what system it was going to use. I've seen some that have declared they are going to be systemless, but that's a design decision, seems really odd to go to Kickstarter when you don't even what rules you are writing for.


Grendel_Khan said:


> They use Cortex Prime for the streamed games. Just seems odd to not commit to that, or to anything specific, before collecting pledges.



I would be disappointed if I had backed to later find out they tie it to a system I don't like. Thanks for the information since it seems likely to be tied to Cortex I'll give this one a miss for now.


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## Dire Bare (May 20, 2021)

Ixal said:


> Is it normal for a kickstarter to not have decided on a system at this stage?
> While the focus is obviously on the story and setting imo you get the best result when you write settings with a game system already in mind as otherwise you can always run into problems when something from the setting can't accurately be presented by the system.
> 
> Took me a while to realize (reading their kickstarter to be honest) that the names are all a reference to Mansa Musa (Munsa?). Considering that he was a devout Muslim, will this also be included in the game or will religion play a negligible role or be a futuristic/fantasy religion?



I'm not worried about "best results" regarding the lack of a system at this point. What exactly are you comparing it to? System matters, but . . . not as much as some folks think.

It does mean that there's a lot of work to do, once a system (or systems) is chosen. But as @Morrus pointed out, it is common for Kickstarter projects to have a lot of work ahead of them at the crowdfunding stage.

Some games are designed system-first, setting-second. Others, such as this one, flip the script . . . and I'm confident the game will turn out just fine, awesome likely!


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## Morrus (May 20, 2021)

Dire Bare said:


> I'm not worried about "best results" regarding the lack of a system at this point. What exactly are you comparing it to? System matters, but . . . not as much as some folks think.
> 
> It does mean that there's a lot of work to do, once a system (or systems) is chosen. But as @Morrus pointed out, it is common for Kickstarter projects to have a lot of work ahead of them at the crowdfunding stage.
> 
> Some games are designed system-first, setting-second. Others, such as this one, flip the script . . . and I'm confident the game will turn out just fine, awesome likely!



Exactly. Maybe they’ll write a custom system.


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## Ixal (May 20, 2021)

Dire Bare said:


> I'm not worried about "best results" regarding the lack of a system at this point. What exactly are you comparing it to? System matters, but . . . not as much as some folks think.
> 
> It does mean that there's a lot of work to do, once a system (or systems) is chosen. But as @Morrus pointed out, it is common for Kickstarter projects to have a lot of work ahead of them at the crowdfunding stage.
> 
> Some games are designed system-first, setting-second. Others, such as this one, flip the script . . . and I'm confident the game will turn out just fine, awesome likely!



I think the system matters a lot, not only for actually playing the game but for setting the tone for it by emphasising different aspects of gameplay.


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## Grendel_Khan (May 20, 2021)

Dire Bare said:


> I'm not worried about "best results" regarding the lack of a system at this point. What exactly are you comparing it to? System matters, but . . . not as much as some folks think.
> 
> It does mean that there's a lot of work to do, once a system (or systems) is chosen. But as @Morrus pointed out, it is common for Kickstarter projects to have a lot of work ahead of them at the crowdfunding stage.
> 
> Some games are designed system-first, setting-second. Others, such as this one, flip the script . . . and I'm confident the game will turn out just fine, awesome likely!



For some genres I'd totally agree that system doesn't really matter. If this was yet another fantasy setting, fine, toss it into 5e, whatever. But SF games can be a lot trickier. Vehicle combat, for example, has a very different feel based on game mechanics. Guns, too.

But my issue is more with the concept of kickstarting a product that's an idea, and not really a product. What's the thing you're actually getting? Is it a super narrative game or something crunchier? Even setting system aside, from the campaign page I can't tell what the game is really about. It seems like you're on a super lovely planet and the two described locations are utopian and wonderful. What do you do as a player?

I'm sure there are answers, but the whole thing feels to me like: We have a popular stream...so we can make a game you'll probably like, right?


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## Ixal (May 20, 2021)

Grendel_Khan said:


> What's the thing you're actually getting? Is it a super narrative game or something crunchier? Even setting system aside, from the campaign page I can't tell what the game is really about. It seems like you're on a super lovely planet and the two described locations are utopian and wonderful. What do you do as a player?



Thats pretty much it, they will certainly pick a system that fits the stories they want to tell, but until they do I have no idea what type of stories those are. Hard Sci-Fi? Light hearted supers? Rules light social games?

And there are also practical points, I do not know if I will like the system they will use, so I won't back. And for a "reading only" book there are not a lot of information on the kickstarter yet.
I will try to keep an eye on it, but so far thats all I feel comfortable to do without knowing more.


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## MGibster (May 20, 2021)

They've got a profession called Spine Ripper which I can't help but think is pretty cool.  It'd make for an interesting Career Day at school I think.


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## Marc_C (May 20, 2021)

I need to know the system to back this. I would have like to try Cortex Prime, for the first time, with this setting.


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## Michael Linke (May 20, 2021)

Marc_C said:


> I think it uses the Cortex Prime rules.



I think their livestreamed games use Cortex Prime, but the point of the kickstarter is to develop an original system.


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## Eyes of Nine (May 21, 2021)

Marc_C said:


> I need to know the system to back this. I would have like to try Cortex Prime, for the first time, with this setting.



Same re: Cortex Prime. But I'm probably in on this one at some level or another. Probably the one that gets me both the rules as well as the sourcebooks.


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## Terry Herc (May 21, 2021)

Perhaps part of the the funding goal involves paying for an official license for Cortex Prime. That might be expensive.

I’m excited about the setting first and the system second.


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## Eyes of Nine (May 21, 2021)

Terry Herc said:


> Perhaps part of the the funding goal involves paying for an official license for Cortex Prime. That might be expensive.



I think we have a winner. That sounds very much like a real-life reason to not yet declare the system. I wonder how much a Cortex Prime license costs...


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## Bagpuss (May 21, 2021)

Terry Herc said:


> Perhaps part of the the funding goal involves paying for an official license for Cortex Prime. That might be expensive.




Then they should have mentioned that if it is part of the funding goal.

If it is a stretch goal it also should have been mentioned there.

All they have said is the final amount will decide if they license a system or write their own, with no indication of which systems they are after. If they are after a particular system surely they could have investigated how much that costs prior to the kickstarter and added it to the goal. If they are writing their own system I think they should have it a bit more developed before they go to a kickstarter.



Terry Herc said:


> I’m excited about the setting first and the system second.




I'd be excited if we knew a bit more about it. At the moment there is no indication of who the antagonists might be, is it tied to one planet or are they spacefaring? What threats exist, how much of an influence is Islam on the culture considering the expedition was sponsored by Mansa Musa?

What does "decolonizing" mean when they literally go and colonize another planet (heck they even rename it Musalia after their ruler)? Of course the expedition wouldn't be a colony in the traditional sense as it wouldn't be in contact with it's home empire, and since the setting seems to be set now or near future a thousand years after they arrived I guess they have integrated. Still for a "decolonized, none imperialist" setting, it seems to have a lot of the old tropes of traditional RPGs. Culture and Race seem tied together so Hyneanole are all scholars and lore masters, Musalian are all outsiders, Misajai are Healers and Law Keepers, though RPGs were getting away from that?

So many unanswered questions that are sort of key to the setting.


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## imagineGod (May 21, 2021)

Marc_C said:


> I think it uses the Cortex Prime rules.



That was the big miss in the sales pitch, not signaling the game engine. 

Many would first think D&D. I supported a fantasy African MMORPG last year, The Wagadu Chronicles, with 5th Edition books included.


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## imagineGod (May 21, 2021)

Eyes of Nine said:


> I think we have a winner. That sounds very much like a real-life reason to not yet declare the system. I wonder how much a Cortex Prime license costs...



Honestly, it cannot be that expensive. Else new settings will all end up using the D&D OGL like The Wagadu Chronicles of African fantasy did last year.

Though if this project is truly ace, like Connor Alexander's Coyote and Crow Native American Futurism, the game engine should have been developed early on this journey to Kickstarter. Connor explained brilliantly why he chose a d12 dice system.


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## Ixal (May 21, 2021)

Bagpuss said:


> I'd be excited if we knew a bit more about it. At the moment there is no indication of who the antagonists might be, is it tied to one planet or are they spacefaring? What threats exist, how much of an influence is Islam on the culture considering the expedition was sponsored by Mansa Musa?
> 
> What does "decolonizing" mean when they literally go and colonize another planet? Of course the expedition wouldn't be a colony in the traditional sense as it wouldn't be in contact with it's home empire, and since the setting seems to be set now or near future a thousand years after they arrived I guess they have integrated. Still for a "decolonized, none imperialist" setting, it seems to have a lot of the old tropes of traditional RPGs. Culture and Race seem tied together so Hyneanole are all scholars and lore masters, Musalian are all outsiders, Misajai are Healers and Law Keepers, though RPGs were getting away from that?
> 
> So many unanswered questions that are sort of key to the setting.



I find that conflict to be actually rather interesting. There is often the danger of falling into a "noble savage" trap (there is probably a better word for it but I can't think of any) when you tell "decolonizing" stories (is this game even intended to be about decolonizing?) and have the people all act good just because of who they are to contrast the "evil colonizers". And yes, in such games, at least from the outside, its often very hard to see who the actual antagonists are as, by design, everyone is always describes as harmonious and peace loveing, again just as a contrast to the colonizers.
But imo if the balance of power in history had been different I have little doubt that Africans or also Native Americans would have acted not all that differently from Europeans.

I, too want to know how much influence Islam plays in the setting, after all you do not see islamic influences often in RPGs so it would be a nice change. And because of the futuristic setting and the longs split from earth there is enough opportunity to have the religion in this game to have morphed enough over time to avoid any real world issues about religion.
But seeing terms like "android priest" in the class description they put up I think they intended to do completely fictional religions. Although I do get a bit of a Ka'ba from their Malisuuna picture. Although if I am honest, thats just because the Theater in the picture is black and has a geometric shape.

But you are right about the stereotyping and tying culture/race to class now that you mention it. But its hard to say for sure with the little information we have.


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## Bagpuss (May 21, 2021)

Trying to find out a bit more about it, so started watching their streamed gaming seasons.

But here it is all linked to Cortex, if that isn't the system they are going with seems they have a mountain of work to do.


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## imagineGod (May 21, 2021)

Ixal said:


> I find that conflict to be actually rather interesting. There is often the danger of falling into a "noble savage" trap (there is probably a better word for it but I can't think of any) when you tell "decolonizing" stories (is this game even intended to be about decolonizing?) and have the people all act good just because of who they are to contrast the "evil colonizers". And yes, in such games, at least from the outside, its often very hard to see who the actual antagonists are as, by design, everyone is always describes as harmonious and peace loveing, again just as a contrast to the colonizers.
> But imo if the balance of power in history had been different I have little doubt that Africans or also Native Americans would have acted not all that differently from Europeans.
> 
> I, too want to know how much influence Islam plays in the setting, after all you do not see islamic influences often in RPGs so it would be a nice change. And because of the futuristic setting and the longs split from earth there is enough opportunity to have the religion in this game to have morphed enough over time to avoid any real world issues about religion.
> ...



A classic example is how The Emperor of China united all. Orv the Mongolian Expansion. Or even The Golden Age of Islam and the inroads into Europe. Or even Mesoanerican empires pre-European conquest. 

The driving philosophy is key. Any doctrine of expansionism inevitably encourages Colonies on new worlds. When the Europeans set off for the Americas, the tag line The New World was in play once it was discovered it was not the East Asian route.


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## imagineGod (May 21, 2021)

By the way, Coriolis The Third Horizon RPG from Free League is one of the best Islamic inspired  cultural futurist settings I have seen.


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## Bagpuss (May 21, 2021)

For those not wanting to trawl through the mechanics (because as we can see from the kickstarter they don't know what they are yet), but are more interested in the setting.


This starts where he describes how they got to the planet over a thousand years ago.

Rewind to the beginning if you want to get a bit of an idea about the modified Cortex system they used, although having watched it, it wasn't particularly helpful as they didn't show any examples of actual characters or even how rolls really work.

I noticed on the subtitle text to speech system they are using the Musalians is translated as "Moose Aliens"...


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## Bagpuss (May 21, 2021)

Weird, reading what I can find online about the history of the Mali Empire, it seems Mansa Munsa wasn't the one sending an expedition across the Atlantic, but his predecessor (Abubakari Keita II) sent two and departed with the second one himself (which consisted of more than 2000 ships) never to be seen again. Maybe he did but wasn't as famous for it or maybe this expedition is completely fictional?

Watching the AP they do keep going on about the setting not having the "baggage of western colonisation and slavery" seeming to ignore the fact that when Mansa Munsa went on his pilgrimage to Mecca he took with him 12,000 slaves. So you can bet any ships that went on an Atlantic expedition took with them a culture of slavery and probably a lot of slaves.


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## Ixal (May 21, 2021)

Bagpuss said:


> For those not wanting to trawl through the mechanics (because as we can see from the kickstarter they don't know what they are yet), but are more interested in the setting.
> 
> 
> This starts where he describes how they got to the planet over a thousand years ago.
> ...



Origin Story: Its ok, the main feature is of course the ties to real world. Still nothing too unusual. Ships find strange, gigantic cave, seek shelter from a storm, emerge somewhere else (a place with two moons). Yes, Musa was rich, we get it. I played Civilization and watched documentaries, etc. Its not that much of a news.
To get to play "without having to deal with any of that earth baggage", meaning western slavery is technically correct, but the Arabic and African Muslims were big slavers themselves and have practiced slavery in Africa for centuries. So "that baggage" would actually be there. Not that there was much chance to enslave anyone when you are a tiny group of survivors landing on a huge, populated continent with vastly more technologically advanced cultures. So its easy to explain why that practice dies out very fast.
Considering that the Musalian and all the related cultures come from these tiny group of survivors I wonder if the setting will account for them being a very tiny minority on the planet. In most games humans are always the majority (even when they are not, I am looking at you Starfinder) which gets tiresome.

The Planet is said to be peaceful which makes me wonder what there is to do considering nearly all the classes shown are either combat classes or healers.

Character: So Bio Priests are basically Neo from Matrix (toned down of course), seeing reality and life as code. And despite the kickstarter saying its an android class it is open to others than Mansagene.

The skill list is fairly generic which, combined with the class descriptions leads me to believe that it will be a fairly combat heavy setting.
The values you can choose for your character: Balance, Duty, Exploration, Glory, Knowledge and Power, also sound very adventury in a D&D sense.

The Solanci sound like there will be variants within a race as there are Solanci living in a Oasis in a desert which have "adapted in a unique way". Obviously they are the druid/one with nature guys.
Mansagene: That they are not biological is played up in the stream and their culture also is against repairing their bodies (scars are also a form of beauty). That makes me wonder how combat and healing will work for them. Otherwise its the artistic/beauty culture.
That they have different faces to plug in and out depending on their mood etc. sounds like a interesting concept.

Hyenale: Basic loremaster from the sound of it who collect and share lore. Not sure how anthropomorphic they really are. The pictures show them as full bipedal animals while in the stream it is said that they have hyena looking parts (And it can be interpreted that those parts vary by individual, apart from some which are always hyena like like their face. But I might also just over interpret things).
Hathare(?): Another native culture which looks like anthropomorphic animals (that seems to be the theme for aliens they are going for. A bit outdated but not uncommon for SciFi). They are said to be rather large and as one of the stretch goals is a elephant plush, so its elephant people with a engineer culture apparently.

@Bagpuss You beat me to it with the "Baggage" comment.
It never occured to me that the exploration fleet was also a historic event.

In the comments of the video they also said that religion is not a factor in the game or the development (at least at the point the video was made).


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## ART! (May 21, 2021)

This is the kind of project i would back regardless of system, just a) to support the creators and the concept, and b) for the setting, ideas, etc.


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## Grendel_Khan (May 21, 2021)

Ixal said:


> The Planet is said to be peaceful which makes me wonder what there is to do considering nearly all the classes shown are either combat classes or healers.



Your last post is a very helpful breakdown of the setting--they should ask you to write a campaign update! But that bit that I quoted from you up there is what still mystifies me about the KS campaign. If this place is so unspoiled by colonialism and generally wonderful...what do you do in the game? Not saying that all settings should be apocalyptic, but the good ones usually feature some clear inflection point or general period of instability. Descriptions of various utopian environments are neat and all, but those are typically places the PCs just pass through on the way to somewhere more dangerous. I don't care about Naboo or Wakanda during peacetime. I care about Tatooine, or Wakanda once it has to deal with the rest of the world, or faces a civil war (or similar).


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## Ixal (May 21, 2021)

Grendel_Khan said:


> Your last post is a very helpful breakdown of the setting--they should ask you to write a campaign update! But that bit that I quoted from you up there is what still mystifies me about the KS campaign. If this place is so unspoiled by colonialism and generally wonderful...what do you do in the game? Not saying that all settings should be apocalyptic, but the good ones usually feature some clear inflection point or general period of instability. Descriptions of various utopian environments are neat and all, but those are typically places the PCs just pass through on the way to somewhere more dangerous. I don't care about Naboo or Wakanda during peacetime. I care about Tatooine, or Wakanda once it has to deal with the rest of the world, or faces a civil war (or similar).



I just listened to the session 0 stream and typed up what I noticed (skipping most of the individual character creation after the first one).
They do get a starship, so thats probably where the adventure is, including space combat as the ship will have a weapon station.
I do wonder what type of adventures you can have (or rather which they aim to support). The types of skills they have remind me of those condensed skill lists in games like Pathfinder or D&D which are mainly combat with a bit of skill on the side and also the classes are nearly all combat related.
Listening to more of their streamed gameplay sessions would probably be enlightening about this issue, but honestly I do not have the time to do that.


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## Bagpuss (May 21, 2021)

Grendel_Khan said:


> Your last post is a very helpful breakdown of the setting--they should ask you to write a campaign update! But that bit that I quoted from you up there is what still mystifies me about the KS campaign. If this place is so unspoiled by colonialism and generally wonderful...what do you do in the game?



It is a planet hopping setting, spaceships and the like, so perhaps the Musalia (sorry shouldn't use the colonial name) I mean Vutoa is peaceful but the rest of the universe (or is it just solar system? Not got that far in the AP yet) are troublesome.


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## Bagpuss (May 21, 2021)

Ixal said:


> The Solanci sound like there will be variants within a race.
> Mansagene: That they are not biological is played up in the stream and their culture also is against repairing their bodies. That makes me wonder how combat and healing will work for them.
> That they have different faces to plug in and out depending on their mood etc. sounds like a interesting concept.
> 
> ...



I'm still trying to understand how they can say "we wanted to get away from the biological determinism like calling it race or species or any variation there of, so we went with culture" and yet all these cultures only have members of a singular race or species as anyone else would understand them.

If they wanted to get away from biological determinism, perhaps they should have kept species, and added culture, so that people from one species could have joined other cultures? Here if you are human you follow Musalian culture, if you are an android you are the Mansegene culture, a planet/person then your Solani "culture", etc.

You can't just go replacing the word race with culture to fix biological determinism.


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## Ixal (May 21, 2021)

Bagpuss said:


> I'm still trying to understand how they can say "we wanted to get away from the biological determinism like calling it race or species or any variation there of, so we went with culture" and yet all these cultures only have members of a singular race or species as anyone else would understand them.
> 
> If they wanted to get away from biological determinism, perhaps they should have kept species, and added culture, so that people from one species could have joined other cultures? Here if you are human you follow Musalian culture, if you are an android you are the Mansegene culture, a planet/person then your Solani "culture", etc.
> 
> You can't just go replacing the word race with culture to fix biological determinism.



Did they actually say that? Or that decolonialism is a feature of the setting?
It looks to me that the goal is mainly to represent cultures often overlooked in RPGs, here northern/central Africans, but the mission statement does not mention anything about any cultural goals.

Granted the stream made it sound like exploring your culture and your relation with it is part of the design goal. Still, this doesn't imply to me that you can't have more fantasy "monocultures" (warrior culture, scholar culture, etc.) and they did mention during character creation that most Bio Priest are Mansagene and that a Musalian Bio Priest would be unusal, but not unheard of and that this choice would be part of the things you can explore.


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## Bagpuss (May 21, 2021)

Ixal said:


> Did they actually say that? Or that decolonialism is a feature of the setting?




It's a quote by the GM from the first AP video. As is my earlier comment about  being free from the "baggage of western colonisation and slavery".


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## imagineGod (May 21, 2021)

Posted Soulbound in wrong thread.


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## Stacie GmrGrl (May 22, 2021)

Bagpuss said:


> It's a quote by the GM from the first AP video. As is my earlier comment about  being free from the "baggage of western colonisation and slavery".



This is their selling point to score points and get immediate pledges to the KS from some people who are of the like mind-set who will back no matter what just to support this. 

The other selling point of this KS seems to be that every person part of the writing and design team is a person of color, which is fine but making it a specific statement about the project is them scoring points with another segment of the population who will auto-back to support for this reason without looking into the project.

The third is the artwork, which is really good. Good artwork will always get me to look at a project, if only to check it out.

The success of this KS will not be based on the game itself, though. It Will be for the first two reasons here. It's another anti-colonialism (which is often treated as synonymous to also being anti-white when the tag line also includes the fact that no non-person of color is on the design team in any way) fantasy rpg based on hypothetical what-if white people were never part of the world culture. 

I'm just imagining how people would react if this game was designed by an entire group of non-people of color and Advertised (virtue signaled)  it like that and decided that every single facet of art and culture in the game completely ignored any reference to any of our world's (planet earth) many, MANY other people of color or indigenous cultures. I'm betting that KS would get slammed on Twitter for being bigoted and the designers pushed out of the industry.

As a person of earth and an anthropologist, I'm kinda getting tired of all the racism and hypocrisy. 

It will be very interesting to see how they will write up a setting that has exploration in it without any colonialistic tropes at all. You can't expand any culture without establishing colonies somewhere to have a base of operation to further explore and settle. And no game, story or entertainment (tv show, movie, etc) can work without some kind of conflict in it. Conflict is the driving force of all dramatic situations and action in every good story told. Without conflict there is no reason for anybody to act. 

If this game was a Cortex game I'd still be pretty tempted to back it. Cortex System is one of my favorites. The art is quite phenomenal IMO and the class (profession) names are evocative enough to definitely make them distinctive from other games. That's very cool.


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## Marc_C (May 22, 2021)

imagineGod said:


> By the way, Coriolis The Third Horizon RPG from Free League is one of the best Islamic inspired  cultural futurist settings I have seen.
> 
> View attachment 137217



Correction: Arab inspired rpg. It is a great game and setting. There is no Islam in Coriolis.


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## Ixal (May 22, 2021)

Stacie GmrGrl said:


> This is their selling point to score points and get immediate pledges to the KS from some people who are of the like mind-set who will back no matter what just to support this.
> 
> The other selling point of this KS seems to be that every person part of the writing and design team is a person of color, which is fine but making it a specific statement about the project is them scoring points with another segment of the population who will auto-back to support for this reason without looking into the project.
> 
> ...



Yeah, the comment about not having "earth baggage" because the ships left before Europeans arrived is rather strange as, as it was already said, slavery was practiced in Mali way before Europeans arrived and the entire setting story is them colonizing a different planet with the only difference being that they can't do it from a position of strength. Still, that the Musalians use their own name for the planet instead of the name the natives have given it sounds like a very colonizer thing to do.
In itself it wouldn't be a problem if they were at least aware of it, but the baggage claim makes it sound that either they are not or they chose to ignore and deny it.

The time since the first arrival also gets longer with each iteration. In the kickstarter they say thousand years, in the podcast season 1 its 1500 and in season 2 they are already at 3000 years.


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## imagineGod (May 22, 2021)

Marc_C said:


> Correction: Arab inspired rpg. It is a great game and setting. There is no Islam in Coriolis.



Correction, the culture in Coriolis is inspired by The Golden Age of Islam and Persian Renaissance  which is intertwined with Arabian and Asian cultures but not exclusive.

The Shiite Islam of Persia is NOT Arab and neither is the Sunni Islam of Turkey. The Golden Age of Islam was followed by the Timurid/Persian Empire Renaissance with roots in Mongol. The richness of the art also has influences from the Mughsl Empire of the Indian sub-continent, all united by the commonality of Islam, not Arabia, though the Mughals were not majority Muslim. This was then followed by the Ottoman Turks of ancient Anatolia, not Arabs.

Obviously, in the far future the Islam of our world is not the faith in Coriolis, which uses the phrase Church of The Icons. However, you can see this cultural evolution and interplay in Turkey which was built upon the fallen Constantinople of the Eastern Roman Empire of Byzantium after it fell to the Islamic expansion that started out from Arabia but the moved east and north. The East began the new fulcrum, not Arabia.. After the fall of the Christian Empire, the Ottoman Turks who were conquerors were influenced by Byzantine culture much more than Arabian culture.

This, the united cultural thread through all the above is Islam, not Arabia.

Before making corrections, please understand Islamic culture better. It is more than one tribal group and was part of a world Renaissance before the European Renaissance.


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## Marc_C (May 22, 2021)

imagineGod said:


> Obviously, in the far future the Islam of our world is not the faith in Coriolis, which uses the phrase Church of The Icons.



That was my point. There is no reference to 'Islam, the religion' on Coriolis.


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## imagineGod (May 22, 2021)

Marc_C said:


> That was my point. There is no reference to 'Islam, the religion' on Coriolis.



You do not need a word reference to Islam to know that the artistic influences in the Coriolis RPG are from the Golden Age of Islam that started in Arabia but was refined through Asian influences of both the Islamic Timurid and Persian Empires and even the Mughal Empire of India.

The common cultural thread is Islam not Arabia.

Hence, Coriolis is an Islamic culture inspired Futurism. It is not Arabian Futurism. Referring to the vast culture as Arab is insulting to many Persians and Turks I know. Use the right words when speaking of cultural influences.


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## Morrus (May 22, 2021)

Stacie GmrGrl said:


> The success of this KS will not be based on the game itself, though. It Will be for the first two reasons here. It's another anti-colonialism (which is often treated as synonymous to also being anti-white when the tag line also includes the fact that no non-person of color is on the design team in any way) fantasy rpg based on hypothetical what-if white people were never part of the world culture.
> 
> I'm just imagining how people would react if this game was designed by an entire group of non-people of color and Advertised (virtue signaled)  it like that and decided that every single facet of art and culture in the game completely ignored any reference to any of our world's (planet earth) many, MANY other people of color or indigenous cultures. I'm betting that KS would get slammed on Twitter for being bigoted and the designers pushed out of the industry.



Don't post again in the thread, please. There's too much to unpack here, but this post is crammed with inappropriate terminology and dog-whistles. This is your 5th warning for this sort of thing.


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## Marc_C (May 22, 2021)

imagineGod said:


> You do not need a word reference to Islam to know that the artistic influences in the Coriolis RPG are from the Golden Age of Islam that started in Arabia but was refined through Asian influences of both the Islamic Timurid and Persian Empires and even the Mughal Empire of India.
> 
> The common cultural thread is Islam not Arabia.
> 
> Hence, Coriolis is an Islamic culture inspired Futurism. *It is not Arabian Futurism*. Referring to the vast culture as Arab is insulting to many Persians and Turks I know. Use the right words when speaking of cultural influences.




The authors themselves describe their setting as *Arabian Nights - In Space* on page 9. (I would add with a mix of Firefly and Lovecraftian horror.) Hence my use of the word Arab.

I'm not going to debate this any further. It's a beautiful day outside. I have relaxing gardening to do. I've had enough internet drama for today.


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## imagineGod (May 22, 2021)

Marc_C said:


> The authors themselves describe their setting as *Arabian Nights - In Space* on page 9. (I would add with a mix of Firefly and Lovecraftian horror.) Hence my use of the word Arab.
> 
> I'm not going to debate this any further. It's a beautiful day outside. I have relaxing gardening to do. I've had enough internet drama for today.



Arabian Nights in space is, safely, a misconception with the word "Arab" since those popular stories are actually based on "Tales of One Thousand and One Nights" by a Persian princess, Scheherezade (_Shahrazad)._This series collects stories from across  the Middle East and parts of Indian stories.  

So despite the name "Arabian Nights" in the English translation, it was not Arab culture 

Seriously, there is this terrible mis-conception in the West that the many rich Persian cultural influences are Arab. They are definitely not. 
​


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## imagineGod (May 22, 2021)

Here, you can read more on Wikipedia to understand this more:

_*One Thousand and One Nights*_ (Arabic: أَلْفُ لَيْلَةٍ وَلَيْلَةٌ‎, _ʾAlf Laylah wa-Laylah_)[1] is a collection of Middle Eastern folk tales compiled in Arabic during the Islamic Golden Age. It is often known in English as the _*Arabian Nights*_,

The main frame story concerns Shahryār (Persian: شهريار‎, from Middle Persian: _šahr-dār_, 'holder of realm'),[8] whom the narrator calls a "Sasanian king" ruling in "India and China."[9] Shahryār is shocked to learn that his brother's wife is unfaithful.

See it was mistranslated as Arabian Nights by Westerners because it was written in Arabic. Imagine if all Europeans using the Latin alphabet are all considered to be Latin people.


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## Aldarc (May 22, 2021)

imagineGod said:


> You do not need a word reference to Islam to know that the artistic influences in the Coriolis RPG are from the Golden Age of Islam that started in Arabia but was refined through Asian influences of both the Islamic Timurid and Persian Empires and even the Mughal Empire of India.
> 
> The common cultural thread is Islam not Arabia.
> 
> Hence, Coriolis is an Islamic culture inspired Futurism. It is not Arabian Futurism. Referring to the vast culture as Arab is insulting to many Persians and Turks I know. Use the right words when speaking of cultural influences.



I will say that it's a bit off-putting that an Islamic futurist setting would have a complete absence of Islam as if the culture and religion could be so neatly separated and removed from each other. The Icons are probably my least favorite part of the setting.


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## imagineGod (May 22, 2021)

Aldarc said:


> I will say that it's a bit off-putting that an Islamic futurist setting would have a complete absence of Islam as if the culture and religion could be so neatly separated and removed from each other. The Icons are probably my least favorite part of the setting.



Because a futurist setting does not need to carry everything f r om our present time or past.

Most European cultures still use Latin alphabet but do not call it the Latin alphabet. And even though many too are inspired by the Italian  Renaissance, but do not call themselves Italians except those in modern day Italy or with roots thee.

Similarly, the Coriolis RPG imagines a far future that assumed the Golden Age of Islam never ended and its influences continued into the future changing and evolving and every n thought Islam is no longer the religion of the future, its cultural influence remains.

The Icons are important, because during The Golden Age of Islam both science and religion were in harmony. Something we see in Coriolis with both technology and prayers 

I lived in such a culture. So Coriolis speaks to me intensely. Different from Western European views on science and religion. 

I just tried to correct the person who tried to wrongly correct me that Arab was the foundation because of "Arabian Nights", and I said no, because " One Thousand and One Nights" stories as told are  more likely Persian, not Arab.


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## Aldarc (May 22, 2021)

imagineGod said:


> Because a futurist setting does not need to carry everything f r om our present time or past.
> 
> Most European cultures still use Latin alphabet but do not call it the Latin alphabet. And even though many too are inspired by the Italian  Renaissance, but do not call themselves Italians except those in modern day Italy or with roots thee.
> 
> ...



This is a bit of a gish gallop of issues that don't entirely speak to the point that I'm trying to make.


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## imagineGod (May 22, 2021)

Aldarc said:


> I will say that it's a bit off-putting that an Islamic futurist setting would have a complete absence of Islam as if the culture and religion could be so neatly separated and removed from each other. The Icons are probably my least favorite part of the setting.



Because a futurist setting does not need to carry everything f r om our present time or past.

Most European cultures still use Latin alphabet but do not call it the Latin alphabet. And inspired by the I tali n Renaissance but do not call themselves Italians except those in modern day Italy or with roots there.

Similarly, the Coriolis RPG imagines a far future that assumed the Golden Age of Islam never ended and its influences continued into the future changing and evolving and every n thought Islam is no longer the religion of the future, its cultural influence remains.

I just tried to correct the person who tried to wrongly correct me that Arab was the foundation because of "Arabian Nights", and I said no, because " One Thousand and One Nights" stories aa told are  more likely Persian, not Arab


Aldarc said:


> This is a bit of a gish gallop of issues that don't entirely speak to the point that I'm trying to make.



Probably tired of people mis-representing The Golden Age of Islam as Arab when it was so much more diverse revolving around Islam the uniting culture not Arabia.


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## Aldarc (May 22, 2021)

imagineGod said:


> Probably tired of people mis-representing The Golden Age of Islam as Arab when it was so much more diverse revolving around Islam the uniting culture not Arabia.



That's a fair point but not what I'm talking about. 

Edit: But as this conversation appears to be going nowhere productive anytime soon, I will drop this conversation so that the thread can resume talking about Into the Motherlands.


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## Morrus (May 22, 2021)

Let's steer back to Into the Mother Lands please, folks.


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## MGibster (May 22, 2021)

A game like_ Into the Mother Lands_ would have had a much more difficult time finding an audience in previous decades. Even if you could have published it, I have a hard time imagining it on the shelf at my local gaming store next to AD&D, Rifts, and Vampire.  And this is just a reminder of one of the ways gaming is better today than it was in my youth.  Maybe I'm just weird, but I love that there is a veritable cornucopia of games out there even if I'm not personally interested in all of them.  We tend to use diversity as a shorthand for race, gender, and sexual orientation, but what comes with it are new ways of  seeing the situation and new ideas for how to handle things.  This just strikes me as something beneficial to the the hobby as a whole.  

And I'm not going to lie, I really want a Bertrand plushie.


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## Morrus (May 22, 2021)

One person has left this community permanently after responding to moderation by PMing me with a lengthy screed about white genocide. Let me be clear: zero tolerance for racists.


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## Grendel_Khan (May 23, 2021)

Morrus said:


> One person has left this community permanently after responding to moderation by PMing me with a lengthy screed about white genocide. Let me be clear: zero tolerance for racists.





Yikes. Good riddance!


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## CubicsRube (May 23, 2021)

I'd love to see more cultures used for inspiration in RPGs, as there's so much I don't know.

As a white Australian, I've grown up knowing very little about African cultures. An RPG based on some of these has the real potential to be new and exciting exciting me.

I do sit in the camp however of needing to know what system they'll use before backing it. I wonder how many others are in that space also?


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## imagineGod (May 23, 2021)

CubicsRube said:


> I'd love to see more cultures used for inspiration in RPGs, as there's so much I don't know.
> 
> As a white Australian, I've grown up knowing very little about African cultures. An RPG based on some of these has the real potential to be new and exciting exciting me.
> 
> I do sit in the camp however of needing to know what system they'll use before backing it. I wonder how many others are in that space also?



If you want an RPG more directly influenced by real African cultures, look out for The Wagadu Chronicles for DnD5e. Sadly, it is funded on Kickstarter as a computer game, but the RPG books were added in one of the goals, so may become available via DriveThruRPG Print-on-Demand.

Also, Jerry D. Grayson, has some interesting Afro-Futurism using the Open d6 System.


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## Lefi2017 (May 23, 2021)

So is tghis another swordfall?


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## Ixal (May 23, 2021)

CubicsRube said:


> I'd love to see more cultures used for inspiration in RPGs, as there's so much I don't know.
> 
> As a white Australian, I've grown up knowing very little about African cultures. An RPG based on some of these has the real potential to be new and exciting exciting me.
> 
> I do sit in the camp however of needing to know what system they'll use before backing it. I wonder how many others are in that space also?



I doubt that the culture of the Musalians will have much in common with the actual culture of Mali of that time.
As far as I understand it, Mali of that time was, also, defined be the split between the Muslim population and the one following the native religion which Musa tried, not to unite but to peacefully convert. As mentioned he was a devout Muslim and responsible for building many mosques including the university of Timbuktu (which was a religious school).

So Islam was part of their culture, yet from all I heard religion will not be a big part of this game apart except for the Bio Priest and they don't sound like they will follow a version of Islam.
So while the backstory is rooted in the real world I do not think this is intended to have any other connection to the real world. It is a pure fantasy (sci-fantasy) game.

And with 3000 years of separation it wouldn't even make sense if their culture would resemble the culture of Mali anyway.


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## Morrus (May 23, 2021)

Lefi2017 said:


> So is tghis another swordfall?



How so?


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## Grendel_Khan (May 23, 2021)

imagineGod said:


> If you want an RPG more directly influenced by real African cultures, look out for The Wagadu Chronicles for DnD5e. Sadly, it is funded on Kickstarter as a computer game, but the RPG books were added in one of the goals, so may become available via DriveThruRPG Print-on-Demand.
> 
> Also, Jerry D. Grayson, has some interesting Afro-Futurism using the Open d6 System.



The Wagadu Chronicles looks like a great read, even for us 5e haters. If the printed materials wind up anything like what they previewed for the video game it seems like they'll get into some really cool ideas beyond the usual Euro-style murder-hobo-ing about.


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## CubicsRube (May 23, 2021)

Ixal said:


> I doubt that the culture of the Musalians will have much in common with the actual culture of Mali of that time.
> As far as I understand it, Mali of that time was, also, defined be the split between the Muslim population and the one following the native religion which Musa tried, not to unite but to peacefully convert. As mentioned he was a devout Muslim and responsible for building many mosques including the university of Timbuktu (which was a religious school).
> 
> So Islam was part of their culture, yet from all I heard religion will not be a big part of this game apart except for the Bio Priest and they don't sound like they will follow a version of Islam.
> ...



Totally. Not expecting real world history. But using an inspiration from a source I'm unfamiliar with has the potential to be a fresh take in my mind.


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## Bagpuss (May 24, 2021)

Ixal said:


> I doubt that the culture of the Musalians will have much in common with the actual culture of Mali of that time.



Wonder if they have done much research in that department at all. From the kickstarter and the little I've seen of the AP, it seems other than the idea of ships leaving Malie and a few of the names there it seems to ignore it's roots, to be just sci-fi fantasy.



Ixal said:


> And with 3000 years of separation it wouldn't even make sense if their culture would resemble the culture of Mali anyway.



It's only 1000 years on according to the Kickstarter.


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## Ixal (May 24, 2021)

Bagpuss said:


> It's only 1000 years on according to the Kickstarter.



In the intro of season 2 of their streamed session it says 3000. I also read 1500 somewhere. So that number seems to be very much in flux.


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## MGibster (May 26, 2021)

Posted in wrong thread


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## Grendel_Khan (May 26, 2021)

Pledges flattened out in a big way. Wonder if they just hit a ceiling, once the stream's fanbase finished showing up to the campaign, or is the system question part of the problem? I don't really have any theories, but I think it's weird for them to hit $200k and still not sort out the system...and also this is flat-out bizarre:






How are you going to include a dice set add-on and still not tell people what system you're using? What if the final system only uses one or two of those dice types, and needs lots of one kind? I realize you can use dice for whatever game you want, but still, this seems real silly to me. Show your support for our game by...rolling these dice when you play 5e....


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## Morrus (May 26, 2021)

Grendel_Khan said:


> Pledges flattened out in a big way.



All Kickstarters do that. There’s a distinctive U shape to the graph of every Kickstarter’s pledges.


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## Grendel_Khan (May 26, 2021)

Morrus said:


> All Kickstarters do that. There’s a distinctive U shape to the graph of every Kickstarter’s pledges.




Absolutely. But I have an unhealthy obsession with watching TTRPG Kickstarters, and this seems like a very precipitous drop to me. Way steeper than Auroboros or Coyote & Crow, for example.

It's obviously a super successful campaign already. I just thought it was interesting how much it's already slowed down.


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## Morrus (May 26, 2021)

Grendel_Khan said:


> Absolutely. But I have an unhealthy obsession with watching TTRPG Kickstarters, and this seems like a very precipitous drop to me. Way steeper than Auroboros or Coyote & Crow, for example.
> 
> It's obviously a super successful campaign already. I just thought it was interesting how much it's already slowed down.



Auroborous looks pretty similar to me. Coyote & Crow is an outlier - its graph is a lot less steep than most.


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## Marc_C (May 26, 2021)

My two wargaming scenery kickstarters did that too. Strong start, calm seas in the middle and small rush at the end.

Still, I believe they sabotage themselves by not going with a system from the get go. Now people are waiting and many pledges could be cancelled if they don't like the system. System matters greatly.


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## imagineGod (May 26, 2021)

Coyote and Crow was superb in that Connar Alexander  explained the design choices for using d12 dice built by his team of natives, instead of jumping on the 5e d20 bandwagon.


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## Morrus (May 26, 2021)

Marc_C said:


> My two wargaming scenery kickstarters did that too. Strong start, calm seas in the middle and small rush at the end.



Yep. It's standard.


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## uzirath (May 27, 2021)

I'm intrigued enough to pledge. Looking forward to checking it out.


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## bedir than (May 28, 2021)

Grendel_Khan said:


> How are you going to include a dice set add-on and still not tell people what system you're using? What if the final system only uses one or two of those dice types, and needs lots of one kind? I realize you can use dice for whatever game you want, but still, this seems real silly to me. Show your support for our game by...rolling these dice when you play 5e....



You seem tied into thinking the image is the specific set that you are getting, where it is likely you wouldn't get that set, as it isn't a special dice set nor does it show the choice of various sets.

It's a placeholder, not a commitment. If they go d12s the dice will be a set of d12s.


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## Dire Bare (May 28, 2021)

Ixal said:


> Yeah, the comment about not having "earth baggage" because the ships left before Europeans arrived is rather strange as, as it was already said, slavery was practiced in Mali way before Europeans arrived and the entire setting story is them colonizing a different planet with the only difference being that they can't do it from a position of strength. Still, that the Musalians use their own name for the planet instead of the name the natives have given it sounds like a very colonizer thing to do.
> In itself it wouldn't be a problem if they were at least aware of it, but the baggage claim makes it sound that either they are not or they chose to ignore and deny it.
> 
> The time since the first arrival also gets longer with each iteration. In the kickstarter they say thousand years, in the podcast season 1 its 1500 and in season 2 they are already at 3000 years.



African slavery is certainly "baggage", but . . . European colonialism is on a whole other level. Slavery, under all circumstances, is a horrid practice . . . but Europeans took that to another place that has had profound and lasting impacts on Africa and other colonized regions to this day.


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## Dire Bare (May 28, 2021)

Bagpuss said:


> Wonder if they have done much research in that department at all. From the kickstarter and the little I've seen of the AP, it seems other than the idea of ships leaving Malie and a few of the names there it seems to ignore it's roots, to be just sci-fi fantasy.
> 
> 
> It's only 1000 years on according to the Kickstarter.



If "Into the Mother Lands" ends up being just sci-fi fantasy . . . but one that springs from an African root rather than a European root . . . I'm down with that.


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## gss000 (May 28, 2021)

bedir than said:


> You seem tied into thinking the image is the specific set that you are getting, where it is likely you wouldn't get that set, as it isn't a special dice set nor does it show the choice of various sets.
> 
> It's a placeholder, not a commitment. If they go d12s the dice will be a set of d12s.



What you say here - which no way reflects anything they have said or claimed - would be very bad marketing if it happens. When it comes to advertising, people naturally assume the image they see is similar to what they will get, especially as every pic of the dice on the KS looks like this. If it's not an accurate representation, they need to make that absolutely clear or else there will be a lot of claims of deception, which no group wants or needs.

Even with all the questions about systems, I'm glad this setting is being made no matter the system they land on.


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## Ixal (May 29, 2021)

Dire Bare said:


> African slavery is certainly "baggage", but . . . European colonialism is on a whole other level. Slavery, under all circumstances, is a horrid practice . . . but Europeans took that to another place that has had profound and lasting impacts on Africa and other colonized regions to this day.



Colonialism and slavery are two different things (and Mali certainly colonized the areas it conquered which includes spreading Islam)
And while the amount of European slavery was unprecedented, the slave trade among Islamic countries was not very small either and Mali was part of that network as a source of slaves acquired by raiding which were then transported north to North Africa and east towards Arabia. And many African countries also participated in the European slave trade by hunting and enslaving others to sell them to European traders who could not penetrate deep into the continent on account if illness.
A big part of Malis economy was based on minerals, specifically gold and copper. And they were mined by slaves.
So Musa and the rulers before and after him were heavily involved in slave trade and fully used and supported slavery as a system, not at all different from Europeans. Does that mean he should not have been used as inspiration for the society in this RPG? Not at all. No historic person will be completely good according to modern standards.
But you should be aware of it that Musa was not any better than European slavers or rather kings that used and promoted slavery. And the comment about the baggage makes it sound like this is not the case. It is sadly a trend, at least in my eyes, to say that all the evils that plagued Africa arrived with the Europeans. And while they certainly had a big role in it this is historical revisionism, especially when it comes to slavery.

So when applied to this game, the baggage of Mali would be in no way smaller than the baggage of the Portuguese or Spanish, especially at this point in time before the triangle trade was established.
The people who arrived on the new planet in Into the Mother Lands would have brought all that "baggage" with them and would have been accustomed to and in support of slavery. But as I said above, without the chance to acquire new slaves which would mean Hyenale, Hathare and the other people of this planet, that practice would have died out eventually.
So nothing would change in the end, but this is such a hot topic that in my opinion you are doing everyone a disservice by spreading revisionist history to absolve some, long dead, group of people from their role in it. Everyone must be honest about this in order to resolve it imo.


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## imagineGod (May 29, 2021)

Ixal said:


> Colonialism and slavery are two different things (and Mali certainly colonized the areas it conquered which includes spreading Islam)
> And while the amount of European slavery was unprecedented, the slave trade among Islamic countries was not very small either and Mali was part of that network as a source of slaves acquired by raiding which were then transported north to North Africa and east towards Arabia. And many African countries also participated in the European slave trade by hunting and enslaving others to sell them to European traders who could not penetrate deep into the continent on account if illness.
> A big part of Malis economy was based on minerals, specifically gold and copper. And they were mined by slaves.
> So Musa and the rulers before and after him were heavily involved in slave trade and fully used and supported slavery as a system, not at all different from Europeans. Does that mean he should not have been used as inspiration for the society in this RPG? Not at all. No historic person will be completely good according to modern standards.
> ...



Exactly this!

Sometimes, people in America forget that just because a Black writer presents a work of literature, does not mean it will accurate of Black African history or cultural and political evolution.

One reason that European Colonial Empires could expand so far and wide, are that many of the smaller tribes in the conquered territories were already at war with one another, and some even welcomed the European conquerors as a counter point to their sometimes bigger tribal enemies. Sort of a bargain between the Devil and the deep blue sea. Yes, this is a terrible pun, because that deep blue see was literally the Atlantic, and the horrors of the trans-Atlantic slave trade are the worst parts of world wide slavery.

Very few empires of our world were truly egalitarian. Even the Roman Empire when it was a Republic that offered citizenship to certain subjects in its conquered colonies was built on the backs of slaves.

However, the very grotesque dimensions of dehumanizing other ethnic groups to justify slavery was most poignantly displayed in the free independent United States of America, land of the free, ironically.


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## Bagpuss (May 29, 2021)

Ixal said:


> So when applied to this game, the baggage of Mali would be in no way smaller than the baggage of the Portuguese or Spanish, especially at this point in time before the triangle trade was established.
> The people who arrived on the new planet in Into the Mother Lands would have brought all that "baggage" with them and would have been accustomed to and in support of slavery. But as I said above, without the chance to acquire new slaves which would mean Hyenale, Hathare and the other people of this planet, that practice would have died out eventually.




Not sure it would die out necessarily, you know humans reproduce right? It's not like people weren't born into slavery in the past. Be interesting if it was addressed, be it if decide they are all humans, together verse these very alien races so remove slavery, or they continue it.


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## MGibster (May 29, 2021)

You know, I think it's safe to say that it's okay to have a pseudo European inspired setting without all the baggage attached to historical feudalism in the name of just having fun.  If that is the case, it stands to reason that it's okay to have a futuristic society inspired by African cultures without assigning it the baggage it might have had in real life just in the name of having fun.


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## Bagpuss (May 29, 2021)

MGibster said:


> You know, I think it's safe to say that it's okay to have a pseudo European inspired setting without all the baggage attached to historical feudalism in the name of just having fun.  If that is the case, it stands to reason that it's okay to have a futuristic society inspired by African cultures without assigning it the baggage it might have had in real life just in the name of having fun.




True, but most futuristic settings, make the effort to take you from A to B. Why changes in the society happened, like Cyberpunk, or 2300AD, etc. So if this culture diverts from Mali somewhere between 1,000 and 3,000 years ago (since they don't seem to have even got that nailed down), it is useful to know roughly what happen in those years. To get to the society without this baggage.


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## Ixal (May 30, 2021)

Back to the game, I wonder how the society will work. They have talked a lot about culture (although without really giving many examples of the culture as far as I have seen) but a society is influenced by more than just culture. Technology for example. How does for example the economy work. Can you simply order something online and pick it up at the next matter printer? Does a drone pick it up and deliver it to you within the hour? Does everyone have replicators at home?
From what I have seen especially Sci-Fantasy games (and as several of the pictures show people running around with swords I do consider ItML to be Sci-Fantasy) have a problem to really understand the scale modern and futuristic societies have with billions of people which are highly networked with big data and likely AI supported large scale computing capacity.

Another problem Sci-Fantasy has is imo starships, especially armed ones. When you give the PCs a armed starship they will find ways to blow stuff up you intended for them to fight on foot or otherwise use them to disrupt the GMs plans.


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## Ixal (Jun 3, 2021)

By the way, am I the only one who thinks that the name is a bit unforunate because I associate the concept and focus on the "Motherland" more with Russia than with any culture from Africa?


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## imagineGod (Jun 3, 2021)

Ixal said:


> By the way, am I the only one who thinks that the name is a bit unforunate because I associate the concept and focus on the "Motherland" more with Russia than with any culture from Africa?



It is a popular phrase in many African tribal tongues too, which logically makes more sense since it is mothers who birth nations, and the fertility goddess is a big part of many African myths.


----------



## Gnosistika (Jun 3, 2021)

Ixal said:


> By the way, am I the only one who thinks that the name is a bit unforunate because I associate the concept and focus on the "Motherland" more with Russia than with any culture from Africa?



Might be a cultural thing. For European countries the association is maybe Russia, but to us from Africa it is definitely something else.


----------



## Ixal (Jun 3, 2021)

imagineGod said:


> It is a popular phrase in many African tribal tongues too, which logically makes more sense since it is mothers who birth nations, and the fertility goddess is a big part of many African myths.



Good to know.


----------



## Grendel_Khan (Jun 3, 2021)

Just wanted to note that, while they still haven't decided on a system -- truly no idea what they're waiting for now -- the creator at least responded to a commenter's question by saying that it would definitely not be 5e.


----------



## Dire Bare (Jun 3, 2021)

Ixal said:


> By the way, am I the only one who thinks that the name is a bit unforunate because I associate the concept and focus on the "Motherland" more with Russia than with any culture from Africa?



Really? The term "mother lands" or "motherland" is hardly a unique Russian phrase. I have no problem with it, and I think this is a bit of a silly complaint.


----------



## Disgruntled Hobbit (Jun 3, 2021)

Grendel_Khan said:


> Pledges flattened out in a big way. Wonder if they just hit a ceiling, once the stream's fanbase finished showing up to the campaign, or is the system question part of the problem? I don't really have any theories, but I think it's weird for them to hit $200k and still not sort out the system...and also this is flat-out bizarre:



All Kickstarters do so
But, also, to call out the elephant in the room, the audience is black. And for every black person in America there's six white people. The desired audience is that much smaller. And only so many white people are going to back it
It was never going to join the ranks of the million dollar Kickstarters, no matter what names were behind it

I want this to succeed and was cheering them on. But I also couldn't justify the expense. I'd never use the book
I don't game with anyone who is black. (My group is white, Metris and Asian.) Running the setting would feel like cultural appropriation


----------



## Disgruntled Hobbit (Jun 3, 2021)

Ixal said:


> By the way, am I the only one who thinks that the name is a bit unforunate because I associate the concept and focus on the "Motherland" more with Russia than with any culture from Africa?



Its use in Russia is more common but by no means unique
There are lots of Motherlands and Homelands
Fewer Fatherlands...


----------



## imagineGod (Jun 3, 2021)

Grendel_Khan said:


> Just wanted to note that, while they still haven't decided on a system -- truly no idea what they're waiting for now -- the creator at least responded to a commenter's question by saying that it would definitely not be 5e.



That is not the best choice in my opinion. 5e has legions of ready made Players.


----------



## Bagpuss (Jun 3, 2021)

Disgruntled Hobbit said:


> I don't game with anyone who is black. (My group is white, Metris and Asian.) Running the setting would feel like cultural appropriation




I'm in the same boat, it is a shame as you do get the odd nut (on Twitter) claiming playing as a PoC (if you are white) is effectively blackface. If I bought it I doubt it would ever get to hit the table (but to be fair that's true of a number of games in my collection), this one due to the real lack of diversity among the only human group comes with a risk of that accusation.


----------



## dragoner (Jun 3, 2021)

Disgruntled Hobbit said:


> Its use in Russia is more common but by no means unique
> There are lots of Motherlands and Homelands
> Fewer Fatherlands...



In Russia it is both Motherland and Fatherland, depending on usage.


----------



## Disgruntled Hobbit (Jun 3, 2021)

Bagpuss said:


> I'm in the same boat, it is a shame as you do get the odd nut (on Twitter) claiming playing as a PoC (if you are white) is effectively blackface. If I bought it I doubt it would ever get to hit the table (but to be fair that's true of a number of games in my collection), this one due to the real lack of diversity among the only human group comes with a risk of that accusation.



It's certainly not blackface to just play a black character. A colorless character that happens to be black
But when you're also adopting black culture it gets harder to justify. You're adopting a minority role. It's not blackface, but not something I'm entirely comfortable with
Especially if the player is attempting an accent. Even if not a real one, like Wakandan

Also wonder if the sci-fi element might limit backers
Science fiction games aren't as popular as fantasy for some reason I've never understood


----------



## Grendel_Khan (Jun 3, 2021)

Disgruntled Hobbit said:


> All Kickstarters do so
> But, also, to call out the elephant in the room, the audience is black. And for every black person in America there's six white people. The desired audience is that much smaller. And only so many white people are going to back it
> It was never going to join the ranks of the million dollar Kickstarters, no matter what names were behind it
> 
> ...




I hear you on all of this, but I don't think Coyote & Crow faced the exact same hurdle. I'm not saying the two games are the same, at all, just that I got the sense that more people were planning to play it despite not being Natives, or were at least backing it regardless. It could be that fantasy games just have broader appeal, or that the setting was more clearly laid out (and maybe just easier to grok in a single sentence). Or maybe having details about the system helped. But I do wonder if there's more of a perceived risk of appropriation with an African-inspired, POC-created game than one based on Native cultures.

There's also the fact that the Coyote & Crow creator addressed this issue directly in an update post during the campaign, essentially giving permission to play the game regardless of whether you were Native. I don't think the Into the Mother Lands team has _any_ obligation to do the same--if anything, I think it's admirably badass to avoid doing that, and let the game speak for itself. But the general tensions around appropriation seem like something that needs more exploration, beyond this game.


----------



## Grendel_Khan (Jun 3, 2021)

Disgruntled Hobbit said:


> It's certainly not blackface to just play a black character. A colorless character that happens to be black
> But when you're also adopting black culture it gets harder to justify. You're adopting a minority role. It's not blackface, but not something I'm entirely comfortable with
> Especially if the player is attempting an accent. Even if not a real one, like Wakandan




I've been thinking a lot lately about how I basically never do accents now when I GM, other than maybe a weak attempt at something British (I'm a white American). The game I run now is set in NYC, with lots of diversity among NPCs. But I have no urge to dip into just about anything now. Not really pining for the old days, and not even sure what I used to do. Just really happy none of that was recorded. I'd hear one second and implode into a black hole of self-loathing.


----------



## imagineGod (Jun 3, 2021)

Bagpuss said:


> I'm in the same boat, it is a shame as you do get the odd nut (on Twitter) claiming playing as a PoC (if you are white) is effectively blackface. If I bought it I doubt it would ever get to hit the table (but to be fair that's true of a number of games in my collection), this one due to the real lack of diversity among the only human group comes with a risk of that accusation.



Those people making that accusation are just nasty people. I play lots of Legends of the Five Rings with my friends and none of us are of the Asian cultures mis-represented by the creators in fantasy Rokugan.


----------



## Eltab (Jun 6, 2021)

Dire Bare said:


> Really? The term "mother lands" or "motherland" is hardly a unique Russian phrase. I have no problem with it, and I think this is a bit of a silly complaint.



The only way to get new information - for instance when you suspect there is a gap in your existing knowledge base - is to ask questions and seek answers.


----------



## Grendel_Khan (Jun 14, 2021)

Five days left in the campaign and still no word on the system. Increasingly bizarre to me.


----------



## Ixal (Jun 14, 2021)

Grendel_Khan said:


> Five days left in the campaign and still no word on the system. Increasingly bizarre to me.



Especially as they now announced an expanded psionic system as a stretchgoal when we don't even know the basic psionic system or how the system they choose even has room for an expanded system.


----------



## Raduin711 (Jun 14, 2021)

The careers are a little swingy in the tone department, aren't they?

Hi, My name is Raduin, I am a light bringer. I practice medicine and I have an energy sword! And these are my friends, the Blade Keeper (you can tell who he is by his buzz saw badge he's wearing) and the Spine Ripper. (Just don't look directly at him, and you'll be fine)


----------



## Grendel_Khan (Jun 14, 2021)

Raduin711 said:


> The careers are a little swingy in the tone department, aren't they?
> 
> Hi, My name is Raduin, I am a light bringer. I practice medicine and I have an energy sword! And these are my friends, the Blade Keeper (you can tell who he is by his buzz saw badge he's wearing) and the Spine Ripper. (Just don't look directly at him, and you'll be fine)




I feel like Spine Rippers have a _whole _lot to live up to, name-wise. And like if I were playing a character in that setting I'd want to just wreck every one that I met, on principle.


----------



## imagineGod (Jun 14, 2021)

It is good for creators to be clear when communicating design goals. .

However, it can be done without the vehemence shown to 5e by the creator. Adding that qualifier of absolutely not, is terribly disappointing and unnecessary.


----------



## aramis erak (Jun 14, 2021)

imagineGod said:


> It is good for creators to be clear when communicating design goals. .
> 
> However, it can be done without the vehemence shown to 5e by the creator. Adding that qualifier of absolutely not, is terribly disappointing and unnecessary.
> 
> View attachment 138295



@Morrus This is an exemplar of a "this update scares off potential backers."
It's providing only negative vibes.
It's telling off the largest demographic, while not providing any assurances that it will be playable.
Screams "Amateur hour."


----------



## CubicsRube (Jun 15, 2021)

It could be an emphasis due to a lot of people asking if it's 5e rather than any negativity towards 5e itself.

Hard to tell without context.

Anyway I wish them best, but there's no way I'd back without knowing the system.


----------



## Bagpuss (Jun 15, 2021)

Grendel_Khan said:


> Five days left in the campaign and still no word on the system. Increasingly bizarre to me.



If they wanted Cortex they should have negotiated how much they had to pay for the license before starting the kickstarter, then they would known the campaign goal. As it is the Cortex people can see how well it does and say tell you want we'll have 50% of that.

There is no logic to the way they have gone about it.


----------



## Disgruntled Hobbit (Jun 15, 2021)

imagineGod said:


> It is good for creators to be clear when communicating design goals. .
> 
> However, it can be done without the vehemence shown to 5e by the creator. Adding that qualifier of absolutely not, is terribly disappointing and unnecessary.
> 
> View attachment 138295



Don't know her well. Looked up her wikipedia page








						Tanya DePass - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




Which says:


> She also plays _Dungeons & Dragons_ in the _Rivals of Waterdeep_ actual play livestream, which features a cast of people of color.[9][10] The show began in 2018 in Chicago as an official Wizards of the Coast production, broadcast on the official _Dungeons & Dragons_ Twitch channel



and 


> In 2021, DePass became a player in _The Black Dice Society_, a Ravenloft themed _Dungeons & Dragons_ actual play show on the official Wizards of the Coast channels.[16][17]



Think she was also a guest on DRAGONTALK recently

Not anti-D&D
You're projecting


----------



## imagineGod (Jun 15, 2021)

Disgruntled Hobbit said:


> Don't know her well. Looked up her wikipedia page
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Probably, English is not your basic language. That s okay. But when someone actually posts "absolutely NOT D&D, " that is not just to state no, but to clarify a strong no with the word "absolutely, " and especially "NOT'," which was typed in all Capitals for further emphasis.


----------



## Morrus (Jun 15, 2021)

imagineGod said:


> Probably, English is not your basic language. That s okay. But when someone actually posts "absolutely NOT D&D, " that is not just to state no, but to clarify a strong no with the word "absolutely, " and especially "NOT'," which was typed in all Capitals for further emphasis.



Yes, it means it’s emphatically not D&D. Nothing more, nothing less.


----------



## Bagpuss (Jun 15, 2021)

Morrus said:


> Yes, it means it’s emphatically not D&D. Nothing more, nothing less.




Yeah but people are going to read stuff into being emphatic about it. Deserved or not.


----------



## Morrus (Jun 15, 2021)

Bagpuss said:


> Yeah but people are going to read stuff into being emphatic about it. Deserved or not.



I guess that’s up to them. The KS is doing incredibly well and looks like it will come in at about a third of million dollars, so they’re doing something right.


----------



## imagineGod (Jun 15, 2021)

Morrus said:


> I guess that’s up to them. The KS is doing incredibly well and looks like it will come in at about a third of million dollars, so they’re doing something right.



That is because the creator is a known personality and it is Afro-Fantasy.

My friend that also Kickstarted Afro-fantasy but did not have a big Twitter following, did not do so well in terns of hundred of thousands of Dollars  but was still successful. 

This sort of shows the right crowd following is more important than your game system. 

Strangely, right now Green Ronin is struggling to break 50,000 for Blue Rose romantic fantasy 5e. Thought Green Ronin has more clout with Players.


----------



## mcmillan (Jun 15, 2021)

CubicsRube said:


> It could be an emphasis due to a lot of people asking if it's 5e rather than any negativity towards 5e itself.
> 
> Hard to tell without context.
> 
> Anyway I wish them best, but there's no way I'd back without knowing the system.



The screenshot cut out the context of this being specifically a response to someone asking if it would be 5e because they wouldn't be interested if so


----------



## Marc_C (Jun 15, 2021)

imagineGod said:


> Strangely, right now Green Ronin is struggling to break 50,000 for Blue Rose romantic fantasy 5e. Thought Green Ronin has more clout with Players.



That is because Blue Rose is already well served by the in house AGE system. That is what the fans play. They want more Blue Rose AGE books not 5e versions of books they already own.


----------



## Disgruntled Hobbit (Jun 16, 2021)

mcmillan said:


> The screenshot cut out the context of this being specifically a response to someone asking if it would be 5e because they wouldn't be interested if so
> View attachment 138316



That changes the tone completely
No vehemence. Just reassuring a backer


----------



## Grendel_Khan (Jun 16, 2021)

mcmillan said:


> The screenshot cut out the context of this being specifically a response to someone asking if it would be 5e because they wouldn't be interested if so




For what it's worth, they transferred that answer over to the FAQ, in an update:





Not trying to read anything into that update, just mentioning it.


----------



## Eyes of Nine (Jun 16, 2021)

imagineGod said:


> Thought Green Ronin has more clout with Players.



Maybe they need some more streams


----------



## Bagpuss (Jun 16, 2021)

Grendel_Khan said:


> Not trying to read anything into that update, just mentioning it.




No, but there they go with another word with negative connotations "concerned"


----------



## Thomas Shey (Jun 18, 2021)

Bagpuss said:


> No, but there they go with another word with negative connotations "concerned"




If they don't want to go into the mechanics, but have been getting some negative reactions to whether it was going to be 5e based, hard to see how they could respond to that without some negative framing.


----------



## imagineGod (Jun 18, 2021)

Thomas Shey said:


> If they don't want to go into the mechanics, but have been getting some negative reactions to whether it was going to be 5e based, hard to see how they could respond to that without some negative framing.



So imagine if 5e was never mentioned, and the Kickstarter ended without any backers knowing the system in use.

Then backers who hate 5e kearn the system in use is 5e. Outrage! 

Now consider some backers  who do not like PbTA, myself for one. And the system turns out to be PbTA. I would feel cheated and want a refund.

Or imagine that instead of Cortex the creators go with BRP, and some backers hate BRP.

When you pledge money upfront, more clarity is a kind gesture to your backers, especially when you have funded over $300,000.

Notice, some cancelled pledges, but a drop in the sea of success, anyway.


----------



## Morrus (Jun 18, 2021)

imagineGod said:


> Notice, some cancelled pledges, but a drop in the sea of success, anyway.



Just goes to show that that's not what most people (including me) care about.


----------



## Thomas Shey (Jun 18, 2021)

imagineGod said:


> So imagine if 5e was never mentioned, and the Kickstarter ended without any backers knowing the system in use.
> 
> Then backers who hate 5e kearn the system in use is 5e. Outrage!
> 
> ...




I'm in no way defending being overly coy about the system.  I'm just noting that the "Not 5e or D20" posts may be in response to very specific questions they've gotten; if that's what they've received, that's what they're going to respond to (personally I'd be equally put off if it was 5e or PbtA based, or various similar takes, which is why I'm not going to back it even though I think the setting conceit is clever.  I may buy it later when I'm not getting in as blind).


----------



## imagineGod (Jun 18, 2021)

Morrus said:


> Just goes to show that that's not what most people (including me) care about.



I also know many people just buy RPG books to read and never get them run on the table. I stopped doing that. It was becoming more like charity instead of a purchase. 

John Wick's 7th Sea was a popular example of that. So few public games of 7th Sea run by Independents and private GMs not affiliated with John Wick. With over 11000 backers, I thought to see more 7th Sea in the wild. Guess many just bought the books to read at home or play in home groups and not run public events that attract even more Players 

That is where 5e shines, despite it receiving negativity on Into the Mother Lands Kickstarter, there are many 5e games run in public.


----------



## imagineGod (Jun 18, 2021)

I will not name and shame, but I know serial Kickstarter backers that have more games than they could play in their lifetime.

There are only 24 hours a day, and at leat 6 used for sleep daily, then work for 5 days, 8 hours at least each of those work days, then the commute, though lick down cut that, still, based on how long a session lasts 3 to 4 hours, and some Campaigns those people backed of every third party Kickstarter I know, they cannot play them all.

And apart ftom RPGs, those people purchase boardgames like Twilight Imperium that takes 6 to 8 hours one session. Not enough time for working adults to get through all their Kickstarter. 

So just purchasing like a charity gift to the creators.


----------



## Morrus (Jun 18, 2021)

imagineGod said:


> I will not name and shame, but I know serial Kickstarter backers that have more games than they could play in their lifetime.



So? Why does this bother you? Just worry about yourself and buy what suits you. Some of us like to collect games, or read games. We know we can't play them all. We're not buying them to satisfy you.

I've used less than half the official D&D 5E books I've bought.


----------



## imagineGod (Jun 18, 2021)

Morrus said:


> So? Why does this bother you? Just worry about yourself and buy what suits you. Some of us like to collect games, or read games. We know we can't play them all. We're not buying them to satisfy you.
> 
> I've used less than half the official D&D 5E books I've bought.



I did not ask you to satisfy me.

I just calculated the average free time of working class people who also socialize without games. travel on holiday, watch movies, maybe do sport or some daily exercise, and then compared that time to what is required to play all the games they have, and realized it is not practically possible.

Just an observation of play time. Not about telling others how to spend money.


----------



## Morrus (Jun 18, 2021)

imagineGod said:


> Not about telling others how to spend money.



That sounds like a good idea. Keep with that!


----------



## Arilyn (Jun 19, 2021)

I have more games than I'll ever play, but they make me happy. And sometimes I'll grab a RPG that's been sitting on our shelf not getting played, and we'll use it and have a blast. 

And giving money to a game designer for a game I may never play doesn't bother me at all. I like to support designers. 

Don't get me started on dice. Now that may be an actual problem.


----------



## imagineGod (Jun 19, 2021)

Arilyn said:


> I have more games than I'll ever play, but they make me happy. And sometimes I'll grab a RPG that's been sitting on our shelf not getting played, and we'll use it and have a blast.
> 
> And giving money to a game designer for a game I may never play doesn't bother me at all. I like to support designers.
> 
> Don't get me started on dice. Now that may be an actual problem.



In that case let me tempt you with spherical dice.

I would have collected these myself, but  I look upon my vast collection and have too many already, including 12 Gio Lasar constellation d6 dice I for d6 Star Wars  (though astronomically they are wrong for a galaxy far away).


----------



## Arilyn (Jun 19, 2021)

imagineGod said:


> In that case let me tempt you with spherical dice.
> 
> I would have collected these myself, but  I look upon my vast collection and have too many already, including 12 Gio Lasar constellation d6 dice I for d6 Star Wars  (though astronomically they are wrong for a galaxy far away).
> 
> View attachment 138490



These are amazing!


----------



## Grendel_Khan (Jun 20, 2021)

Final note on this campaign: Ended at about $360k, which is awesome. But still no word on the system, which I personally think is not awesome. And the final video ends with "we can't wait to share with you what we're going to create." Isn't that what the campaign is for, to share that?

Anyway, enough of that. I'd say I wish them luck, but I feel like they kinda didn't really explain what they were doing, leaving you to have to watch their streams to get real context. So they don't need luck, since they already have a big enough fanbase.


----------



## Bagpuss (Dec 10, 2021)

Six months after the campaign has closed they have finally announced they won’t be using Cortex but developing their own in house system.


----------



## J.Quondam (Dec 10, 2021)

Bagpuss said:


> Six months after the campaign has closed they have finally announced they won’t be using Cortex but developing their own in house system.



Is this related to the Cortex licensing issue announced a few days ago?


----------



## Grendel_Khan (Dec 10, 2021)

Bagpuss said:


> Six months after the campaign has closed they have finally announced they won’t be using Cortex but developing their own in house system.




Any details? Or just that that's their plan?


----------



## Bagpuss (Dec 11, 2021)

Grendel_Khan said:


> Any details? Or just that that's their plan?




from a backer only post

Alright, after conferring with the folks working on the game and making sure we got you info since people... keep... asking. Here's the deal with mechanics.

We are not going to use Cortex Prime. Why? Biggest issue was licensing and finding something that fit and was fair to both parties. Also the cost of licensing would have been a whole lot. So what will Mother Lands RPG run on? Our own system, which you all will get to test, beat up and give feedback on soon. 

We've got Daniel Kwan, Eloy Lasanta, Aabria Iyengar, BDave Walters, Gabe Hicks and Eugenio Vargas working on the mechanics. We've had a few meetings to figure out our best course of action before deciding to go with our own system. Since ItML RPG is something new, we wanted to also have unique mechanics that reflect what we're doing with the IP. 

What exactly are we doing? We're still going with a dice pool, but streamlined to be easier to learn and to flow better for streamed sessions. Not that Cortex is a bad system and them letting us use it for our streamed shows helped us get the stream launched quickly.

What's happening on creating the mechanics front? We've got a meeting of the minds happening in the next couple of weeks; and after that session, we'll have a better idea of when playtesting can start in early 2022 for those who backed the KS at The Gamemaster Bundle tier and up ($75). They will receive a KS Playtester role in the discord. If you have not joined the discord as a KS backer, information on how to do so is in this post. 

Sorry this has taken so long to get to you all, as we wanted to be sure that making our own mechanics was the best course of action, and using an OGL pool or other mechanics option just didn't fit after accepting that a Cortex License wasn't going to happen either. We also are staying away from a D20 system as we want this to be visually, mechanically and otherwise discernable from D&D; as many people still describe the show and in-development game as "Black D&D but in Space".

So there you go, TL;DR we are making our own mechanics and will keep you all up to date as we work through and playtesting becomes ready for backers. Lastly, a reminder that many of the team will be at PAX Unplugged and taking time for the holidays. We should be having an update from our Art Director as pencils come in.

This update will also be shared in the Discord in the KS Updates channel 

Thanks for coming along with us on this journey, and we look forward to being in touch a lot more in the new year.


----------



## Morrus (Dec 11, 2021)

Fandom charges people to use the Cortex Prime system? I didn’t know that!


----------



## Aldarc (Dec 11, 2021)

Morrus said:


> Fandom charges people to use the Cortex Prime system? I didn’t know that!



Most discussion has been focused on the fan license rather than the professional one.


----------



## Bagpuss (Dec 11, 2021)

Morrus said:


> Fandom charges people to use the Cortex Prime system? I didn’t know that!



And I suspect that it isn’t a nice set announced price but negotiated and if Kickstarter announces your budget you don’t start in a good negotiating position.


----------



## Grendel_Khan (Dec 11, 2021)

This bit stuck out to me:

"We're still going with a dice pool, but streamlined to be easier to learn and to flow better for streamed sessions."

I get that streaming is a big part of the hobby how, but this strikes me as obnoxious. Are they building the best system for people buying and playing the game--virtually none of whom will be streaming those sessions--or ... a system tailored to their own streams?

Even the opening of that update, acting as though, months after the campaign ended, it's somehow pushy or weird that people "keep...asking" about the system, is just bizarre to me. I feel like this is nothing more than a streaming enterprise that'll now use the associated RPG as nothing more than a marketing tool. I'm an old fart, to be sure, but the whole thing grosses me out.


----------



## Michael Linke (Dec 11, 2021)

Cortex Plus (and by extension Prime) already claimed to be written with special attention toward supporting online play.

I agree that a game optimized for streaming sounds like a terrible game to actually play.


----------



## BRayne (Dec 11, 2021)

I mean "optimized for streaming" might just mean rule lite in way that minimizes time spent checking a rulebook and also minimizes rules lawyer types yelling about how "you're playing it wrong". With mention of dice pool and having Gabe Hicks involved with designing it I'm inclined to think it might end up being a development of the Mythic Tales System he designed for his recent run GMing for Dimension 20 which does fit what they're talking about.


----------



## J.Quondam (Dec 11, 2021)

Is there something that actually differentiates a system "for streaming" as opposed to another streamlined system? I mean,  there are plenty of systems that have been designed with a "lite" approach in mind, including the Cortex they were initially going to use.

I don't really see the issue here. The only newish thing here is attaching the word "streaming" to it. But what _specific_ sorts of changes in a lightweight system "_for streaming_" would really impact how that game plays at a _non_-streaming table?


----------



## MGibster (Dec 11, 2021)

J.Quondam said:


> Is there something that actually differentiates a system "for streaming" as opposed to another streamlined system? I mean, there are plenty of systems that have been designed with a "lite" approach in mind, including the Cortex they were initially going to use.



I'm not a backer or anything, but it wouldn't bother me save for the fact that I don't know what it actually means to be designed for streaming.  But we're talking about the bare minimum of bother here.  It doesn't throw up any alarms for me.


----------



## Bagpuss (Dec 11, 2021)

MGibster said:


> It doesn't throw up any alarms for me.



The biggest alarm is they still don’t  have a system months after the Kickstarter closed less than a year before they are meant to deliver.

Either it’s going to be late or it is unlikely to be decently play tested and most likely rushed.

Although most Kickstarter tend to be a bit late.


----------



## Thomas Shey (Dec 11, 2021)

Eloy also knows his way around dice pool systems (I believe that's what used in Ninja Crusade, and it absolutely is in Part Time Gods).  I'm personally suspicious about "streamlined" but then I often find that games focused on that lose most nuance from my point of view, but that just says I'm probably not the market.


----------



## Thomas Shey (Dec 11, 2021)

Bagpuss said:


> The biggest alarm is they still don’t  have a system months after the Kickstarter closed less than a year before they are meant to deliver.
> 
> Either it’s going to be late or it is unlikely to be decently play tested and most likely rushed.
> 
> Although most Kickstarter tend to be a bit late.




The key word in this last sentence is "bit" though.  Like you say, I don't find it ideal that they're now having to drop back to doing a set of mechanics this late in the day.


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## Eltab (Dec 12, 2021)

I have a sinking feeling that the organizers raced too fast to be "First!" and did not get themselves fully ready to produce their game.  Of course "watching the sausage be made" is always a letdown, so I won't draw any conclusions.  
I hope they show me wrong, and that their game will turn out to be awesome to play.


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## Bagpuss (Aug 25, 2022)

So original release date is next month and the last update was July this year about a new artist hire, but they have pinned one in Dec 2021where they announced they would go with their own system rather than the Cortex system they had been using with the twitch stream. A twitch stream which stopped abruptly in August last year, when it said see you next Wednesday, and claimed "nine more weeks to go" of this series. The last comment on the Kickstarter was an offer to refund someone that complained about the tone they took when people asked about updates.

So likely it is going to overrun, but by how much?

Edit: Correction provided by Mezuka.


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## Mezuka (Aug 25, 2022)

Bagpuss said:


> So original release date is next month and the last update was Dec last year where they announced they would go with their own system rather than the Cortex system they had been using with the twitch stream. A twitch stream which stopped abruptly in August last year, when it said see you next Wednesday, and claimed "nine more weeks to go" of this series. The last comment on the Kickstarter was an offer to refund someone that complained about the lack of updates and the tone they took when people asked for some.
> 
> So clearly it is going to overrun, but by how much?



Seems like she made an update #48 on July 27th 2022. Scroll down.


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## Bagpuss (Aug 25, 2022)

Mezuka said:


> Seems like she made an update #48 on July 27th 2022. Scroll down.




Cool, guess they just pinned that Dec one as it was important. The rest mainly seem to be artist showcases at least what they have publicly.

Any news on an actual release date? (looks like they might have said something in May)


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## Mezuka (Aug 25, 2022)

Bagpuss said:


> Cool, guess they just pinned that Dec one as it was important. The rest mainly seem to be artist showcases at least what they have publicly.
> 
> Any news on an actual release date? (looks like they might have said something in May)



Aren't you a backer? I'm not. I checked the KS because of your comment.


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## Bagpuss (Aug 25, 2022)

Mezuka said:


> Aren't you a backer? I'm not. I checked the KS because of your comment.




No too many red flags at the start, but I liked the concept of it and was hoping for some updates. I've stopped backing most kickstarters as the shipping to the UK usually means it is worth waiting until it is actually released, and get it from a local shop.


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