# promoting a healthier geek and nerd



## Scott DeWar (May 18, 2011)

I know it seems that the title may scream humor, but as a health concies person-out of necessary- i fond this through a buddy of mine:

 high frutose corn syrip 

If this is a no no type of thing to post, morrus or mods, just delete it and send me a pm.


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## frankthedm (May 18, 2011)

Whether is a pale facsimile of sugar or real sugar, the bigger issue is folks need LESS of it going in their system. 







			
				Cracked.com said:
			
		

> http://www.cracked.com/funny-4180-diet-products/
> Due to the cruel laws of physics, losing weight requires two things:
> 
> 1. Pain
> ...


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## Relique du Madde (May 18, 2011)

Scott DeWar said:


> I know it seems that the title may scream humor, but as a health concies person-out of necessary- i fond this through a buddy of mine:
> 
> high frutose corn syrip
> 
> If this is a no no type of thing to post, morrus or mods, just delete it and send me a pm.




Wait... did science just verify the superiority of Mexican Coke* there?!?!?

* For those who never drank the wonder known as Mexican Coke, it uses REAL CANE SUGAR and not High Frutose Corn Syrup.


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## Relique du Madde (May 18, 2011)

Double post


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## Thunderfoot (May 18, 2011)

Pepsi is starting to revert back to using sugar instead of HFCS, most of their products (most notably Sierra Mist) are slowly switching over.

Yes, sugar is bad, but at least it is easier to break down than HFCS.


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## Kzach (May 18, 2011)

That Cracked comment is BS.

I'm on a diet program I built myself from my knowledge and research into nutrition and calorie intake requirements. It's designed for a healthy lifestyle for a person of average weight for my sex and build. Because I'm over that weight, I gradually lose weight until I hit that medium. And any exercise I do over the average hour per day incorporated into the design of the diet, increases the rate that I lose weight.

This method of weight-loss is very gradual. It will take roughly two years for me to get to my goal weight. However, it does not require starvation, nor does it make me hungry. I am fully satisfied after every meal.

The problem with modern diet programs is that they quite literally put you on the edge of starvation and enforce unrealistic exercise regimes. Sure, you lose weight fast, but you don't make realistic and permanent life-changes, and losing weight that fast can actually be seriously detrimental to your health.


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## Umbran (May 18, 2011)

Okay, I see some signs of some bad science reporting in the article linked in the OP.  For example, this:

"High doses of free fructose have been proven to literally punch holes in the intestinal lining... "

That's the kind of verbiage specifically designed to make you FEAR HFCS!!!1!!  It is emotionally loaded, but lacks the data necessary to allow you to know if it is relevant.  If that "high dose" is well over what any human would actually ingest, this effect won't be seen in people, and is not relevant to discussion.

It is like arguing that sand is evil because if you drop a rock of unstated size on your head, you'll die.  It is a common form of manipulative BS, and makes me distrust the rest of the article.  If his point was as strong as it ought to be, this tactic would be unnecessary.  He does it more in talking about "contaminants" - innuendo and suggestion abound.

So, really, as science reporting, this is a load of horsehockey.  I would not recommend using this article to make decisions about HFCS in your food.


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## Scott DeWar (May 18, 2011)

Umbran, If you feel it is neccessary to lock this, pleas do. I only posted the link because most gamers i have known to  drink a 2 liter of Mt dew or other soda at a setting. As the originator i await any deserved reproof.

Any science that can prove or disprove your comment, that too would be appreciated.


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## Bedrockgames (May 18, 2011)

I think cane sugar tastes better than corn sugar, but lately have been trying to shoot for a low calorie diet. Whether or not the science is sound in this article (I know very little about the corn vs. cane sugar issue), it looks like the OPs goal was to promote healthier living in the gaming community, something worthy of discussion I think. 

Even though I am very physically active (or was until about January of this year)--running 5 days a week, lifting weights and participating in a number of sports--I became quite ill recently and needed a number of bowel surgeries. While much of it was dumb luck, some of it probably stemmed from my diet and some bad habits I developed (too much pizza and coffee at table top games, not enough vegetables fruits, etc; sitting for prolonged periods of time to write or read, not getting enough water, not getting enough fiber).

The impact of this on my gaming has been profound. Not only have I not been able to participate regularly in games with my friends; I actually had to bring a game I was running to a halt to go to the emergency room.  

What I learned was, once one thing goes wrong, it can take time and effort to bring everything else back in line and continue with the activities you enjoy.


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## Rhun (May 18, 2011)

These days, everything will kill you. Now, I'm a fairly health conscious person...I eat well, and I work-out 4-5 times a week. But every time I turn around it is "this is bad for you" or "that is bad for you." Honestly, it starts to get annoying. While I'm sure HFCS is bad for you in large quantities, I doubt a little here and there is really going to do enough to harm a person. And who wants to go through life fearing that if they have a Mountain Dew that they are going to die from what is contains anyway?


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## Bedrockgames (May 18, 2011)

Rhun said:


> These days, everything will kill you. Now, I'm a fairly health conscious person...I eat well, and I work-out 4-5 times a week. But every time I turn around it is "this is bad for you" or "that is bad for you." Honestly, it starts to get annoying. While I'm sure HFCS is bad for you in large quantities, I doubt a little here and there is really going to do enough to harm a person. And who wants to go through life fearing that if they have a Mountain Dew that they are going to die from what is contains anyway?




I think its all about moderation and not displacing the healthier aspects of your diet. Where I went wrong was having 3-6 plus cups of coffee a day instead of 1 or 2, for example.


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## Rhun (May 18, 2011)

Bedrockgames said:


> I think its all about moderation and not displacing the healthier aspects of your diet. Where I went wrong was having 3-6 plus cups of coffee a day instead of 1 or 2, for example.




Coffee can certainly cause issues. With that said, there has been a lot of research done recently over the health benefits of coffee. I personally drink about 2 cups of coffee a day, to no ill effect. There is a good article on this over at the Mayo Clinic's site in which they certainly hold to the "everything in moderation" theory.


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## Umbran (May 18, 2011)

Scott DeWar said:


> Umbran, If you feel it is neccessary to lock this, pleas do.




I don't think anyone's taking nearly so seriously as that'd be called for.  You're okay.



> I only posted the link because most gamers i have known to  drink a 2 liter of Mt dew or other soda at a setting.




Yes, well, if you changed that to an equal amount of stuff sweetened with cane sugar, it'd still be a problem.  The issue isn't that it is sweetened with HFCS, it is that it is two liters of really sweet stuff.  If you moderate your intake of sweets in general, like you should for good health, whether they are sweetened with HFCS or can sugar isn't an issue.



> Any science that can prove or disprove your comment, that too would be appreciated.




Well, that's the thing - if that was a properly written article about the science, I wouldn't be so easily able to point out inflammatory points not backed by data.  The required information would be in the original.  That is the signal to me that this article is more about the agenda than about getting you proper information.


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## Bedrockgames (May 18, 2011)

Rhun said:


> Coffee can certainly cause issues. With that said, there has been a lot of research done recently over the health benefits of coffee. I personally drink about 2 cups of coffee a day, to no ill effect. There is a good article on this over at the Mayo Clinic's site in which they certainly hold to the "everything in moderation" theory.




I agree coffee can have health benefits as well. When I was healthy I often had a small cup of coffee prior to a work out for the energy boost (something I found a lot more effective and less problematic than say taking an energy drink). In my case it was digestive health that was the issue, so the issue wasn't really coffee being bad, but me having way too much of it during the day. And it was hardly the lone contributor. Basically all the things I was consuming to improve my digestive health were being displaced by other things like too much coffee, pizza, milk, etc.


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## Rhun (May 18, 2011)

Bedrockgames said:


> I agree coffee can have health benefits as well. When I was healthy I often had a small cup of coffee prior to a work out for the energy boost (something I found a lot more effective and less problematic than say taking an energy drink).




I absolutely agree with this!



Bedrockgames said:


> In my case it was digestive health that was the issue, so the issue wasn't really coffee being bad, but me having way too much of it during the day. And it was hardly the lone contributor. Basically all the things I was consuming to improve my digestive health were being displaced by other things like too much coffee, pizza, milk, etc.




Coffee can certainly be hard on the digestive track. No about about it. Have you tried Aloe Vera juice for digestive health? I drink a few ounces of it a day, and I really like it. Not sure what you are allowed after your surgery, but you might look into it.


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## Bedrockgames (May 18, 2011)

Rhun said:


> Coffee can certainly be hard on the digestive track. No about about it. Have you tried Aloe Vera juice for digestive health? I drink a few ounces of it a day, and I really like it. Not sure what you are allowed after your surgery, but you might look into it.




My wife loves aloe vera juice. For some reason I can't keep the stuff down when I drink it. But she swears by it. I've basically been sticking to high fiber, high fruit, high water diet. Basically I probably could have avoided three surgeries (and potentially a fourth) if I had been eating this way all along, and limited my coffee intake more (now I just drink a cup of half caff. in the morning).


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## Rhun (May 18, 2011)

Bedrockgames said:


> My wife loves aloe vera juice. For some reason I can't keep the stuff down when I drink it. But she swears by it.




I'm a huge fan of it too. But if you can't keep it down, you can't keep it down. Bummer.



Bedrockgames said:


> I've basically been sticking to high fiber, high fruit, high water diet.




Sounds like a good diet. I started a similar diet about three or four years ago, and I've never felt better.


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## Mallus (May 18, 2011)

This is why I only drink rainwater and pure grain alcohol.


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## Rhun (May 18, 2011)

Mallus said:


> This is why I only drink rainwater and pure grain alcohol.




I can't resist:

Brain Drain, one-ninety grain
Am I insane?
Will I ever change?
Brain Drain, one-ninety grain
It's not the caine, not the Mary Jane
But that Golden Grain


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## El Mahdi (May 18, 2011)

Scott DeWar said:


> ...as a health concious person-out of necessity...




Is that why you'll only drink _good_ scotch...?






Mallus said:


> This is why I only drink rainwater and pure grain alcohol.




POE for the Win!

(Damned Flouridation!)


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## Rhun (May 18, 2011)

In related news: Man eats 25,000th Big Mac!


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## Bedrockgames (May 18, 2011)

Rhun said:


> In related news: Man eats 25,000th Big Mac!




The burgers aren't so bad for you. Its when you get the burger, the fries and the soda (as more than a once in a while treat) that its bad. I used to work delivery while in college and one of the only ways to eat was drive thrus. The Big Mac and Big and Tasty were usually what I got because they at least had lettuce. I just skipped the fries and got a water instead of soda.


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## Scott DeWar (May 19, 2011)

when I get a hankerin for a burger i get a wendies double-small fries and no drink-I take it home and get water.



El Mahdi said:


> Is that why you'll only drink _good_ scotch...?



 I wish I could afford good scotch.


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## catsclaw227 (May 19, 2011)

A fitness expert and nutritionist I have been following lately wrote this in his email newsletter about HFCS:


*High Fructose Corn Syrup*

HFCS is used in almost every sweetened product on the market today. It’s most prevalent in sodas, breakfast syrups, fruit juices, and any other sweetened beverages. HFCS is also found in ketchup, sweetened cereals, cakes, cookies, pasta sauces, barbeque sauces, salad dressings, and many other products. It began to be used in smaller quantities by food manufacturers in the 1970’s. It has now become the number one sweetener used in most food products due to its comparatively low cost. Some health experts have even correlated the rise in the use of HFCS in our food supply with the rise in obesity, since they have a remarkably similar trend. Although it’s quite possible that there may be a link between the two, I don’t fully agree with that assertion, since the population has also become much more sedentary over the years.

The problem with HFCS is that it is not processed by our bodies in the same way as other sugars and tends to be more lipogenic (promotes fat storage). Also, your body doesn’t readily recognize the calories ingested from HFCS, so it does nothing to satisfy your appetite. The bottom line is, if you want to be lean and ripped, stay away from the empty calories of HFCS. If you need to buy sweetened products, look for products that use natural un-processed sweeteners like raw honey, molasses, or organic maple syrup and use them in moderation. If you want a non-caloric alternative, whatever you do, DON’T use artificial sweeteners. Not only are artificial sweeteners potentially dangerous chemicals in the long run, but studies are also indicating that they promote fat gain and high insulin levels due to several complicated factors in the body.​
And then he wrote about sweeteners in general:


I wanted to talk about artificial sweeteners today because I've noticed that there's a lot of confusion and misconceptions revolving around these non-caloric sweeteners. Artificial sweeteners and the huge list of products sweetened with them are marketed to you relentlessly as "healthy foods" or "healthier" than sugar or corn syrup sweetened products. But are they really?

Just to clarify, some of the most popular artificial sweeteners on the market today are:

Splenda (sucralose)
Aspartame
Saccharine
Acesulfame Potassium (aka - acesulfame K)

These artificial sweeteners are used in abundance in almost every "diet" drink, "lite" yogurts, puddings, and ice creams, most "low-carb" products, and almost all "reduced-sugar" products. Heck, even most protein powders are loaded with artificial sweeteners too (just look on the ingredients and you'll usually see one or more of them).

Splenda is probably one of the worst offenders of claiming to be "healthy" as they say that it's made from real sugar. Don't be fooled! It's still an artificial substance. What they don't tell you is that Splenda is actually a chemically modified substance where chlorine is added to the chemical structure, making it more similar to a chlorinated pesticide than something we should be eating or drinking.

The truth is that artificial sweeteners are not even close to being healthy, and as you'll discover in a minute, can easily be just as bad for you, if not worse, than sugar or corn syrup. Most people think that they are doing something good for themselves by choosing the "diet" drinks or "lite" yogurts compared to the sugar-laden versions, but the problem is that you're exposing yourself to a whole new set of problems with the artificially sweetened drinks and foods.

I know you're probably frustrated by all of the contradicting messages you hear each day about which foods are good for you and which are bad. I'm sure just today you probably saw some clever ad or commercial somewhere screaming health benefits for a food product that is loaded with artificial sweeteners. Don't worry. 

Just stick with me and I'll get past the marketing hype for you and decipher the truth. I'll also give you some ideas for great alternatives to artificial sweeteners as well as alternatives to sugar or corn syrup sweeteners.

The fact is, artificial sweeteners vs. sugar or corn syrup is really just a battle between two evils. Which evil is worse? 

I'm sure you already know the problems with sugar or high fructose corn syrup sweetened products. The excess empty calories, blood sugar spike, and resulting insulin surge this creates in your body not only promotes fat gain, but also stimulates your appetite further, making things even worse.

On the other hand, artificial sweeteners save you calories, but there's growing evidence that they can increase your appetite for sweets and other carbohydrates causing you to eat more later in the day anyway. Therefore, you don't really save any calories at all. Also, studies have shown that artificial sweeteners can stimulate high insulin levels in your body too, which again can promote fat storage.

All of the 4 artificial sweeteners listed above are nasty chemicals that the human body is simply not meant to ingest. However, most of us are ingesting a whole lot of these chemicals on a daily basis. Aside from the problems I touched on so far, other health issues that have been related to artificial sweeteners in scientific studies as well as observations are:

•	some have been linked to potential cancer risks
•	negative effects on the liver, kidneys, and other organs
•	stimulating cravings
•	gastrointestinal problems
•	developmental problems in children and fetuses
•	headaches
•	and too many more issues to list

Now some of the above potential health problems are definitely not proven as fact in studies. However, some of them have been shown in animal studies given high doses. Regardless of the fact that any real health problems for actual human use are not proven yet, I don't know about you, but I'd rather protect myself and steer clear of these possibly dangerous artificial chemicals.

Of course, despite all of the health issues potentially associated with artificial sweeteners, the companies that sell the products will continue to claim that they are fully safe and they have studies that prove that they are safe. The bottom line is that the body was not designed to deal with foreign substances like artificial sweeteners. Take my word on that one.

So what are your options for alternatives? Well, your best alternatives for sugar or corn syrup are either raw honey, organic maple syrup, or even a little-known high antioxidant syrup called sorghum syrup (common in the southern US). Even though these alternatives still have the same amount of calories as sugar or corn syrup... honey, organic maple syrup, and sorghum syrup actually provide some nutrients and antioxidants, so it's not just empty calories. Empty calories stimulate your appetite more because your body is lacking nutrients.

Now you're probably thinking that you'd like to still save on calories but avoid the nasty artificial sweeteners. Good news... You can!

You've probably seen me reference this natural sweetener in a lot of my recipes. It's called Stevia. I've been using it for years as an alternative sweetener when you still want to save a little on calories and sugar.

Stevia is not artificial like the other chemical sweeteners I mentioned above. Stevia is a natural non-caloric herb. It is a South American herb and when dried into a powder, has a sweetness about 200-300 times stronger than sugar. 

One problem I've noticed with using Stevia is that the pure powder is a very powerful sweetener, so you can easily use too much. However, I've found some good Stevia products that use a bulking agent added so that you can measure out the stevia powder in direct comparison to measuring sugar.

I've yet to see any negative reports or health concerns regarding stevia and only positive potential health benefits. I definitely give Stevia my seal of approval. Do yourself a favor (and your family), and if you are currently an artificial sweetener junkie, please consider switching to stevia.​


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## Bedrockgames (May 19, 2011)

Thanks for the post. My doctor pretty much told me to steer clear of artificial sweeteners. I never really liked the taste of them anyways so avoiding them hasn't been a big deal. If I feel like a soda but don't want the calories, I just drink sparkling water instead.


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## IronWolf (May 19, 2011)

Rhun said:


> Coffee can certainly cause issues. With that said, there has been a lot of research done recently over the health benefits of coffee. I personally drink about 2 cups of coffee a day, to no ill effect. There is a good article on this over at the Mayo Clinic's site in which they certainly hold to the "everything in moderation" theory.




Add another recent coffee study....

Coffee Consumption and Prostate Cancer Risk and Progression in the Health Professionals Follow-up Study


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## catsclaw227 (May 19, 2011)

There are a number of recent studies about Coffee and it's benefits.

Coffee Drinking Linked to Reduced Stroke Risk in Women


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## Scott DeWar (May 19, 2011)

I have tried stevia and for some reason it tastes bitter to me.


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## IronWolf (May 19, 2011)

Scott DeWar said:


> I have tried stevia and for some reason it tastes bitter to me.




An energy drink I used to use frequently when I was cycling a lot used stevia in it.  It was a great energy drink, much better than gatorade or powerade or one of those type of drinks.


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## catsclaw227 (May 19, 2011)

Scott DeWar said:


> I have tried stevia and for some reason it tastes bitter to me.



It's important to find good stevia.  And it is very strong.  The one I use has a teeny-tiny scoop inside and it's amazing to see how little you need.

I use Trader Joe's 100% Pure Organic Stevia Extract.  It comes in a little jar the size of a small spice jar.  I have also heart that Steviva has a nice taste as well.


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## Rhun (May 19, 2011)

Scott DeWar said:


> I have tried stevia and for some reason it tastes bitter to me.




Try agave nectar. It is sweet (a bit sweeter than honey, actually), mixes into things very well, has a glycemic index comparable to fructose (and thus lower than ordinary sugar /sucrose and honey), and is also more easily processed by the body.


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## catsclaw227 (May 19, 2011)

Rhun said:


> Try agave nectar. It is sweet (a bit sweeter than honey, actually), mixes into things very well, has a glycemic index comparable to fructose (and thus lower than ordinary sugar /sucrose and honey), and is also more easily processed by the body.




I am sorry, nothing personal to Rhun... But, I am going to have to disagree...

Agave nectar has a wonderful taste and, admittedly, I have a bottle of Organic Blue Agave that I use (very) rarely.  

But don't let the manufacturers fool you.  It is basically high fructose agave syrup.  The Native Americans used to have an agave based sweetener called _miel de agave_ and they made it by boiling the agave sap... for hours. It was their Maple Syrup.

This is NOT what modern agave nectar is.  It comes from a totally different part of the plant, the big bulbous root, and it was developed sometime in the late 20th century, 80's or 90's.

The agave root is a starch, like corn, and has something called inulin (a fructose chain of molecules) and it is not sweet, but makes up almost half of the carbs in the syrup.  The process that converts corn into HFCS?  It's the same process that converts agave and inulin into "nectar".  Such a nice, healthy sounding word, isn't it?

Here's a quote from one of the MANY sites that debunk the agave nectar myth:



> "It's almost all fructose, highly processed sugar with great marketing," Dr. Ingrid Kohlstadt, a fellow of the American College of Nutrition and an associate faculty member at Johns Hopkins School of Public Health, told the Chicago Tribune. "Fructose interferes with healthy metabolism when (consumed) at higher doses," she said. "Many people have fructose intolerance like lactose intolerance. They get acne or worse diabetes symptoms even though their blood [sugar] is okay."




Turpentine has a low-glycemic index; it is not good for you though. It's a marketing ploy that ignores the loads of science out there.

It's fine to get fructose from whole fruit.  It is also loaded with vitamins and antioxidants (among other healthy things), but when you process it like this, it wreaks havoc on your metabolic system.

Don't believe the hype.  Obviously a little isn't going to hurt you, but I would never make it my primary sweetener.

Read the science.


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## Dire Bare (May 19, 2011)

This is a great thread!  Don't usually learn practical stuff when visiting ENWorld!


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## catsclaw227 (May 19, 2011)

The agave stuff weren't all my words.  I cobbled together some of the main arguments and paraphrased.  There's a ton of science out there clearing the air about the supposed benefits of agave nectar.


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## Bullgrit (May 19, 2011)

I started a hardcore fitness regimen a little over a year ago, and my results have been really good. For my diet, I now really just count calories and vaguely mind the protein/carb/fat ratios. I don't have to give any thought to anything with more than two syllables. Mind the calories, and really, everything tends to fall into place properly.

I eat normal food. I have no special drinks or ingredients. Heck, I ate an egg mcmuffin for breakfast this morning -- 300 calories and an acceptable protein/carb/fat ratio.

I've come to be amazed at how easy it really is to eat satisfactorily.

Bullgrit


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## catsclaw227 (May 19, 2011)

Here are more easy ones to remember....

1. 4 words.  "Eat Less, Move more."  

If you are overweight and need to lose?  It is simple, and can work. Though, truth be told, eat less doesn't mean "eat only one box of cookies instead of two".  You have to be honest about what you are eating, so it works better if you follow the next rule too.

2. Try to eat mostly things that are made up of one ingredient. 

Fruit, fish, chicken, beef, vegetables, etc. are all fine for you and will help you detoxify your body. Just like above, though, you can't be a glutton about it.  Now, some foods have more than one "ingredient", but if you read the back and it has stuff in it that doesn't sound like something you could have eaten 100-150 years ago?  You might want to pass.

3.  Eat from the outer-ring at the grocery store.

Notice how the stuff around the outside tend to follow #2's philosophy?  Fruit, veggies, dairy, meats, etc?  A lot of the stuff in the middle is made up of boxed, bagged, or processed stuff.  If there's a ton of chemicals or unpronounceable ingredients?  erm.. you should put it back on the shelf.

EDIT: I hope I was clear enough so that you understand that a salad of baby greens, bell peppers, cucumbers, and other veggies, with a splash of extra virgin olive oil and balsamic vinegar can constitute a "one ingredient" salad.  Each item has only one ingredient...  But I am sure you know what I meant.  You're not supposed to be looking for loopholes.


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## Umbran (May 19, 2011)

catsclaw227 said:


> Read the science.




Yes, let us...

"Studies that have compared high-fructose corn syrup (an ingredient in nearly all soft drinks sold in the US) to sucrose (common table sugar) find that most measured physiological effects are equivalent. For instance, Melanson et al. (2006), studied the effects of HFCS and sucrose sweetened drinks on blood glucose, insulin, leptin, and ghrelin levels. They found no significant differences in any of these parameters.[50] This is not surprising, since sucrose is a disaccharide that digests to 50% fructose and 50% glucose, whereas the high-fructose corn syrup most commonly used on soft drinks is 55% fructose and 45% glucose. The difference between the two lies in the fact that HFCS contains little sucrose, the fructose and glucose being independent moieties."

....

"Eating fructose _*instead of glucose*_ results in lower circulating insulin and leptin levels, and higher ghrelin levels after the meal. Since leptin and insulin decrease appetite and ghrelin increases appetite, some researchers suspect that eating large amounts of fructose increases the likelihood of weight gain."

Basically, the *real* major problem with fructose is that eating it leaves you hungrier, so that you will tend to overeat, and thus get fat.  However, HFCS is *only 5% more* fructose than standard table sugar, and so does not show much of this effect - replacing HFCS with standard cane sugar isn't a major difference, as it isn't really changing the amount of fructose in your diet much.

And, we can also note that fructose is sweeter to the tongue than standard table sugar, so if you are paying attention you can use less of it to get the same desired sweetness.  In addition, fructose does not trigger production of insulin like glucose does, and so is of notable use for diabetics.

Too much of *anything* in your diet is bad.  But HFCS isn't a demon waiting to get you if you use it in moderation.  Any sugar is a demon waiting for you if you ingest to excess.


[50] Melanson, K.; et al. (2006). "Eating Rate and Satiation.". Obesity Society (NAASO) 2006 Annual Meeting, October 20–24,Hynes Convention Center, Boston, Massachusetts.


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## catsclaw227 (May 19, 2011)

Umbran --

I am not sure what your point is.  Are you saying that using high fructose corn (or agave) syrup as your your primary source of sweetener is OK?  Because it certainly is NOT.  And that was the point of my post.

Fructose from fruit?  That's fine. Honey, or other pure sources of sweetener, these are OK too, in moderation.  Artificial sweeteners?  Bad idea.

If you simply meant to say that HFCS isn't a death machine, well of course I agree.  I even said that a little of it is OK, just don't make it your primary source of sweets.

If you recall in a previous post in this thread, I quoted a fitness and nutrition expert, who didn't say HRCS was awful, but that it was not the same as frucotse straight from fruit.  He also said:

The problem with HFCS is that it is not processed by our bodies in the same way as other sugars and tends to be more lipogenic (promotes fat storage). Also, your body doesn’t readily recognize the calories ingested from HFCS, so it does nothing to satisfy your appetite. The bottom line is, if you want to be lean and ripped, stay away from the empty calories of HFCS.​
Also, when I said "read the science" it was in the context of debunking the advertising around agave nectar.

My quote, taken out of context, isn't very helpful to the readers.

And your quote isn't a study. It was a speech at an annual meeting about a series of studies done in the early 90s... in the world of food science that 15-20 years is a lifetime (Correction below**). Here's a Princeton study from 2010.

And here's a nice tidbit from the end:

"Our findings lend support to the theory that the excessive consumption of high-fructose corn syrup found in many beverages may be an important factor in the obesity epidemic," Avena said.

The new research complements previous work led by Hoebel and Avena demonstrating that sucrose can be addictive, having effects on the brain similar to some drugs of abuse. 

In the future, the team intends to explore how the animals respond to the consumption of high-fructose corn syrup in conjunction with a high-fat diet -- the equivalent of a typical fast-food meal containing a hamburger, fries and soda -- and whether excessive high-fructose corn syrup consumption contributes to the diseases associated with obesity. Another step will be to study how fructose affects brain function in the control of appetite.​

Also, my wife is at Type I diabetic.  Sometimes she needs sugar if she is getting hypoglycemic. In emergency situation, the fastest, best way is straight glucose (sold as Glucose Tablets with 4g of fast-acting carbs).

So, there is a place for glucose too.

But when something is processed like HFCS is, your body doesn't know what to do with it, it's empty calories, and it can generate feelings of hunger afterwards and cause more weight gain.

HFCS is produced by isomerizing most of the glucose in corn syrup to fructose and then mixing this syrup with varying amounts of corn-based glucose syrup. HFCS-55, consisting of 55% fructose and 42% glucose, is used primarily in sweetened beverages, whereas HFCS-42 (42% fructose; 53% glucose) is used primarily to sweeten other products (e.g., baked foods and confectionaries).

So HFCS is almost half glucose anyway...

To Quote Dr. Joseph Mercola:


> By USDA estimates, about *one-quarter of the calories* consumed by the average American is in the form of added sugars, and most of that is HFCS. The average Westerner consumes a staggering 142 pounds a year of sugar! And the very products most people rely on to lose weight -- the low-fat diet foods -- are often the ones highest in fructose.
> 
> Making matters worse, all of the fiber has been removed from these processed foods, so there is essentially no nutritive value at all.




Bottom line.... It isn't that glucose or fructose itself is bad -- it is the MASSIVE DOSES we're exposed to that make it dangerous. 




** EDIT: I am sorry, the studies were done in early-mid 2000's.  But it notable that her own study done in 2007 (after that meeting) says: 



> However, when HFCS is compared with sucrose, the more commonly consumed sweetener, such differences are not apparent, and appetite and energy intake do not differ in the *short-term*. Longer-term studies on connections between HFCS, potential mechanisms, and body weight *have not been conducted*. The main objective of this review was to examine collective data on associations between consumption of HFCS and energy balance, with particular focus on energy intake and its regulation.




(Emphasis mine)  I think the long-term effects are much more important, and I look forward to reading these studies.


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## Dannyalcatraz (May 19, 2011)

Speaking as one who is frequently in the offices of dietitians _*ahem*_:

It isn't that HFCS is worse than other sugars, it's that the processed food industries have gotten ahold of it- it's cheaper to produce in mass quantities than other sugars- and have added it as a flavor enhancer to foods that once contained little or no sugar at all.

IOW, we're simply ingesting it and it's attendant calories at ass-rounding rates.


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## Rhun (May 19, 2011)

catsclaw227 said:


> The agave root is a starch, like corn, and has something called inulin (a fructose chain of molecules) and it is not sweet, but makes up almost half of the carbs in the syrup.  The process that converts corn into HFCS?  It's the same process that converts agave and inulin into "nectar".  Such a nice, healthy sounding word, isn't it?




You know, there is also a lot of research going on currently showing that inulin is actually good for you.


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## Umbran (May 19, 2011)

catsclaw227 said:


> Are you saying that using high fructose corn (or agave) syrup as your your primary source of sweetener is OK?  Because it certainly is NOT.




I am saying that this form of flat statement is not generally true. Whether you can safely use fructose (or any other sweetener) as your primary is entirely dependent on how much sweetener you use. 

Feed one person enough HFCS that you clearly see the health problems people fear from HFCS, and feed another person the same number of calories in sucrose, and guess what?  That second person will also have health issues!  They may be slightly different health issues, but _neither_ is healthy for you in such large amounts.  Take those folks who are getting fat on HFCS sweetened sodas and candies, and swap out the HFCS for cane sugar, and they'd still get fat!!!

My point is that fingering HFCS is a dodge.  It misses the real issue - people generally eat too many sweets for their activity level.  Period.  Full stop.


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## IronWolf (May 19, 2011)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> It isn't that HFCS is worse than other sugars, it's that the processed food industries have gotten ahold of it- it's cheaper to produce in mass quantities than other sugars- and have added it as a flavor enhancer to foods that once contained little or no sugar at all.






Umbran said:


> My point is that fingering HFCS is a dodge.  It misses the real issue - people generally eat too many sweets for their activity level.  Period.  Full stop.




I think the issue is as Dannyalcatraz points out.  HFCS is being included in processed food as a flavor enhancer.  In foods that previously had no sugar or very little sugar.


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## Scott DeWar (May 19, 2011)

Being  type two diabetic i will flat out say this: I have eaten too much sugar in my life. that is why I am a diabetic. There is no doubt. The Idea that America consumes 140+ Pounds of sugar/sweeteners per year is astounding. I can see how I use to do that. It is gross-so is the fat on my mid section.

As for the op being a promotion of a healthier geek and nerd, I see how much the average American eats and I know that there is a good possibility that the number for gamers might be a bit higher.

Now-

Before this gets to be an edition war of the sweeteners, lets all step back and readdress the mentioned issue-as mentioned by several posters:

Excessive amounts of consumed sweeteners-any ideas on how to safely and with good health change that trend? Honey was mentioned. With the exception of the already mentioned glutinous amounts of sugars consumed already- how much is average safe vs how much is considered too much?


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## Dannyalcatraz (May 19, 2011)

> Excessive amounts of consumed sweeteners-any ideas on how to safely and with good health change that trend?




My issue isn't diabetes- I have certain food allergies, but more importantly, I'm the most sodium dependent hypertensive my previous MD had ever seen in 40 years of practice. But the survival skills you need are essentially the same for whatever ingredient you need to minimize or eliminate from your diet: 

1) Read your food labels like your life depended on it...because it does.

2) Try to eat more fresh/frozen and minimally processed foods

3) Control your portion size

4) Learn how to cook, and do so often

(FWIW, #3 is my personal Waterloo.)

With sugars, try to buy more bakery-fresh breads as opposed to the stuff on your grocer's shelves.  Generally speaking, it will be lower in sugars and higher in fiber, especially if you go to a free-standing bakery.

For candies & sweets, if you must indulge, limit your acceptable types.  Instead of buying all the candies you like, buy your 1-3 favorites only.  Look at more expensive, high quality versions of them (from boutique chocolatiers, for instance) to get candies that have a more intense flavor- you may eat less of it.

Don't bring sweets home.  Make desserts & sweet snacks something you consume only outside of the house.  That way, you won't be as able to get your hands on them late at night, or whenever the snack-bug strikes.


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## catsclaw227 (May 19, 2011)

Rhun said:


> You know, there is also a lot of research going on currently showing that inulin is actually good for you.




True, but this research is about inulin in its raw state, not the state it finds itself in after being processed by chemists to make it cheaper. 



Umbran said:


> I am saying that this form of flat statement is not generally true. Whether you can safely use fructose (or any other sweetener) as your primary is entirely dependent on how much sweetener you use.
> 
> Feed one person enough HFCS that you clearly see the health problems people fear from HFCS, and feed another person the same number of calories in sucrose, and guess what?  That second person will also have health issues!  They may be slightly different health issues, but _neither_ is healthy for you in such large amounts.  Take those folks who are getting fat on HFCS sweetened sodas and candies, and swap out the HFCS for cane sugar, and they'd still get fat!!!
> 
> My point is that fingering HFCS is a dodge.  It misses the real issue - people generally eat too many sweets for their activity level.  Period.  Full stop.




You see, I agree with you here.  

But the main issue, as Dannyalcatraz and my first post pointed out, is that HFCS has found it's way into almost EVERYTHING.  Ketchup, sweetened cereals, cakes, cookies, pasta sauces, barbeque sauces, salad dressings, etc.  It is cheap to manufacture and conglomerates like Monsanto (don't get me started on them...) hardball other companies to put it in their products.  Check the bottles of stuff in your fridge.  Your BBQ sauce, and salad dressing (unless it is a healthy or organic dressing), and you'll see it.  In BBQ sauce it's often the FIRST ingredient, and therefore the most predominant.

The USDA findings are crazy scary.  You can have 1/4th of your calories come from HFCS, and you might never know it.


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## catsclaw227 (May 19, 2011)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> 1) Read your food labels like your life depended on it...because it does.
> 
> 2) Try to eat more fresh/frozen and minimally processed foods
> 
> ...



All good suggestions.

To add to #1, don't just look at the grams of sugar in the nutritional grid, look at the ingredient list. That list alone can get scary.  

If you want to add some sweetener to iced tea or your cereal, again try stevia, no-calorie natural sweetener.  I know you said it tasted bitter to you, but i think that was more the brand than the stevia itself.


Oh, like Danny's #1 above read the labels thoroughly. 

Ground turkey is supposed to be a good healthy choice, right?  uh-huh... Just make sure you read the labels...

This Jennie-O 85/15 ground turkey package may say 85% fat free, but they are talking about the turkey being 15 percent fat by weight (in grams) ie. 17g fat in a 4oz (112g) portion, but look closer and you will see that this example has 220 calories total, but 150 calories from fat!  That means that this "healthy" ground turkey is 68% fat!  Might as well get a greasy fast-food burger.

Even Perdue 93/7 lean ground turkey has 170 calories and 70 of them are from fat.  That's 48% fat!  (Note Perdue website doesn't show the actual real Nutrition Facts that must be printed on the label.  False advertising at it's worse.)

That's why you should buy extra lean, all white meat, turkey.  Out of 120 calories only 10 calories from fat, less than 10%.  A much better choice.

(IMPORTANT: This data is not specific to the brands I am showing.  Jennie-O also makes a nice 99/1 white meat turkey breast, and so does Perdue.  Just showing variation in brands  to help prove my point)


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## Umbran (May 19, 2011)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> 1) Read your food labels like your life depended on it...because it does.
> 
> 2) Try to eat more fresh/frozen and minimally processed foods
> 
> ...




All good points.  

Another that many American's don't get: eat when you're actually hungry.

Food holds such a prominent place in our psychology that we often deal with many other issues by eating.  Food equals security, so you'll eat when you're nervous.  Food equals entertainment, so you'll eat when you're bored.  Food equals family, so you'll eat when you're lonely.  Food is associated with meals, when we drink, so some folks will even eat when they should be drinking water.  Food is a positive - so you may eat whenever you want that positive association: like gaming sessions!  And so on.

If you aren't ill (like Mr. DeWar, a diabetic), skip a meal or two every once in a while.  Remember what hunger feels like.

For gamers - consider having a healthy meal during or before a session, rather than indulging in chips and cookies so much.


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## catsclaw227 (May 19, 2011)

Umbran said:


> Another that many American's don't get: eat when you're actually hungry.



Yup.  And put the fork down when you feel satisfied, not when you are full.  Being full, especially that uncomfortable full, is not our regular state.  You will also notice over time that you won't have as many false hunger cravings.


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## Umbran (May 19, 2011)

Oh, and another, possibly important point: activity may be more important than diet.  Watch what you eat all you want, if you're a couch potato, you're going to have issues.  

When the human body is inactive for too much of the day, it slips into a state with a lower metabolic rate.  Raise your activity level for part of the day, and the rest of the day you can be in a higher metabolic state - even when you're at rest, you'll burn more calories and have other things go "right" in your body (in terms of hormone levels, and the like).

This does not necessarily mean, "go to the gym".  It can mean "walk the three miles to work rather than drive" or "walk up to the next floor to use the bathroom", "walk over to your coworker's cube and talk to them rather than write an e-mail", and so on.  Just get up and move.

On a similar note: eat breakfast, for largely the same reason.  If you don't eat breakfast, your body tends to slip to a lower metabolic rate - it doesn't know when food's coming, so it saves energy.  Eating breakfast, even something small (say, a banana), tells your body that it isn't in any danger of running out of energy, and can burn what is available.


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## Bedrockgames (May 19, 2011)

Umbran said:


> Oh, and another, possibly important point: activity may be more important than diet.  Watch what you eat all you want, if you're a couch potato, you're going to have issues.
> 
> When the human body is inactive for too much of the day, it slips into a state with a lower metabolic rate.  Raise your activity level for part of the day, and the rest of the day you can be in a higher metabolic state - even when you're at rest, you'll burn more calories and have other things go "right" in your body (in terms of hormone levels, and the like).




I couldn't agree more. I've been forced into an inactive lifestyle for the past five months or so, but leading up to that I was very active (regular running, workout routine, activities,etc). The difference is night and day. I actually lost weight rather than put it on, but most of what I lost was muscle (and I am not a big muscly kind of guy, but believe me, when they go away you realize just how much muscle even a lean 5'7" pounder like myself really has). It impacted stuff like digestion, mood, energy level; everything. 



> This does not necessarily mean, "go to the gym".  It can mean "walk the three miles to work rather than drive" or "walk up to the next floor to use the bathroom", "walk over to your coworker's cube and talk to them rather than write an e-mail", and so on.  Just get up and move.




One thing I always do, even now, is take the stairs instead of elevators and walk places I don't really need to drive to. 



> On a similar note: eat breakfast, for largely the same reason.  If you don't eat breakfast, your body tends to slip to a lower metabolic rate - it doesn't know when food's coming, so it saves energy.  Eating breakfast, even something small (say, a banana), tells your body that it isn't in any danger of running out of energy, and can burn what is available.




Breakfast is very important. I've found starting the day with 2 poached or boiled eggs (or some oatmeal) is a good way to go.


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## Rhun (May 19, 2011)

catsclaw227 said:


> Yup.  And put the fork down when you feel satisfied, not when you are full.  Being full, especially that uncomfortable full, is not our regular state.  You will also notice over time that you won't have as many false hunger cravings.




That whole parental thing of telling kids "you have to finish everything on your plate" - very counterproductive!


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## El Mahdi (May 19, 2011)

Umbran said:


> Oh, and another, possibly important point: activity may be more important than diet. Watch what you eat all you want, if you're a couch potato, you're going to have issues.
> 
> When the human body is inactive for too much of the day, it slips into a state with a lower metabolic rate. Raise your activity level for part of the day, and the rest of the day you can be in a higher metabolic state - even when you're at rest, you'll burn more calories and have other things go "right" in your body (in terms of hormone levels, and the like).
> 
> ...




And I'll add Sleep.

Start the day with a sleep deficit, and you're starting at a metabolic deficit also.  Start the day with too much sleep, and same thing.

6 to 8 hours every night!


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## Scott DeWar (May 19, 2011)

on the buying the right food thing, remember the USA is in a financial crisis. I am now finished with all the electrical projects and am basically out of work-and a tooth just broke yesterday morning(ugh).


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## IronWolf (May 19, 2011)

Umbran said:


> Oh, and another, possibly important point: activity may be more important than diet.  Watch what you eat all you want, if you're a couch potato, you're going to have issues.




Agreed.  So many people go on diets but don't change their activity level.  For me I need the activity which always has better results - not just weight - than trying to stringently watch what I eat.


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## Dannyalcatraz (May 20, 2011)

Side note on ground meats (of all kinds): READ YOUR LABELS!!!!

Some are OK, but as my wondering eyes soon perceived, even this simple product may have additives.  I went shopping for ground pork one day to make home-made sausage patties and my Spidey Sense triggered, making me read the label.  The meat had been pre-salted, and was over 500mg sodium/serving.  Pork is NOT that salty: unprocessed pork is about 1/10th that amount.  I bought some pork loin and ground it myself.


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## catsclaw227 (May 20, 2011)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> I bought some pork loin and ground it myself.




Good decision. 

On another side note, if you crave beef, and you can afford it, try to get grass-fed beef.  Much better for you and it has much higher levels of CLA (Conjugated Linoleic Acid) which is a fat that is good for you and can actually help burn that horrible visceral fat that is so dangerous.  (And if you can't, a quality CLA gelcap is great.)

And Bison is good and lean too.

Personally, I only get Natural beef/chicken/turkey, even better Organic, and evenest betterest grass-fed.  Try your local farmers market.

EDIT:  Full disclosure... I am the VP of Content and Technology for the NHI OnDemand website with the linked CLA dietary supplement monograph above.  It's very good, informational website, but I might have a slight bias.   If you like really good health study science reporting on the use of dietary supplements, herbs, minerals, etc and their effect on health conditions and disease states, our Dietary Supplement and Health Condition libraries may be of interest.  And three of our newsletters (Health Studies Journal, Ingredient Science Journal, and Organic Marketplace Journal) are quite informational as well.  You can sign up for them here.  The Experts' Perspectives and Trading Zone are more for the Health & Wellness trade.


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## Bedrockgames (May 20, 2011)

Scott DeWar said:


> on the buying the right food thing, remember the USA is in a financial crisis. I am now finished with all the electrical projects and am basically out of work-and a tooth just broke yesterday morning(ugh).




I do a lot of my shopping at Market Basket which is one of the cheaper supermarkets where I live. I've found it easy to buy the right food without busting the bank (unless you are trying to eat organic or something). Beans are healthy and very cheap. Veggies and fruits at MB are reasonably priced. Same with rice and brown rice. I've found it is easier to save if you go in knowing what you plan to make for breakfasts, lunches and dinners during the weak.


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## AdmundfortGeographer (May 20, 2011)

*Interesting article from the NYTimes recently*

Back in April, the NYTimes had a multipage article on the possibility that it isn't high-fructose sugar that is bad, sucrose (beet, cane, white, brow,) could be too. Rather, ALL sugar in the doses modern westerners consume could be toxic.

This article made waves then, and I can honestly say, nothing this about diets made me change my eating habits.

The amount of scientists skeptical of the person at the heart of the Times' article is high, but the author presents a convincing argument enough that I've change my eating habits, far far less sugar than I've been consuming before.


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## Scott DeWar (May 20, 2011)

Eric Anondson said:


> Back in April, the NYTimes had a multipage article  .. .. .. ..*snip* .. .. .. ...




as has been mentioned many times here: portion control. An FNP at the VA hospital gave a diabeties counsuling a coupleof months back. 
Her specialty is diabetic nutrition. She could not stress portion control enough.

some one back a few posts mentioned eating breakfast and a reasonable lunch before gaming. That really helps to reduce the carb/fat snack cravings. I believe it does a lot; that in turn prevents the empty calories that induce the unrequitable hungries'


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## Umbran (May 20, 2011)

Scott DeWar said:


> some one back a few posts mentioned eating breakfast and a reasonable lunch before gaming. That really helps to reduce the carb/fat snack cravings. I believe it does a lot; that in turn prevents the empty calories that induce the unrequitable hungries'




We go one step further, in that whenever our schedule allows, we serve a home-cooked meal for games.  Not much call for munching the salty, fatty, or sweet snacks when you've had a healthy dinner before play begins.


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## catsclaw227 (May 20, 2011)

Umbran said:


> We go one step further, in that whenever our schedule allows, we serve a home-cooked meal for games.  Not much call for munching the salty, fatty, or sweet snacks when you've had a healthy dinner before play begins.



Yum.

With my group, by the time everyone shows up, and we get through the first 30mins of catching up on the past two weeks (or more) as friends, we only have 4-5 hours to get our gaming on.  Mostly, our rule is to eat before you come over, or bring your meal along if you want and eat during pregame chat.

Fortunately, one is a vegetarian, three of the others of us have dramatically changed our diets in the past 6-12mos, and the other two go with the flow with what we have.  And so we mostly snack on veggies, hummus and sprouted grain pitas, and drink water, minimal soda (for the go-with-the-flow dudes), and an occasional beer.

EDIT:  And pickled stuff.  We like pickled green beans, mushrooms, cucumbers, and of course pickled pickles.


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## Dannyalcatraz (May 20, 2011)

Umbran said:


> We go one step further, in that whenever our schedule allows, we serve a home-cooked meal for games.  Not much call for munching the salty, fatty, or sweet snacks when you've had a healthy dinner before play begins.




Torturer!

Salty, fatty, and sweet snacks are a fundamental right of gamers everywhere!


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## catsclaw227 (May 20, 2011)

Bedrockgames said:


> I've found it easy to buy the right food without busting the bank (unless you are trying to eat organic or something).



Interestingly, in my experience (and I can only speak for myself), I found the whole "organic is too expensive" thing a fallacy.

I started changing my diet, gradually over a couple of months about a year ago.  I was pre-diabetic, grossly obese (though I would never admit it before), my blood pressure was 165/110, I had a fatbelly, fatface, multi-chin, my cholesterol was horrible and my triglycerides were like 700.  I was a dead-man walking, and only 8 years earlier I was in the best shape of my life, even better than when I wrestled in high-school.  I found that I leaned on things, I would get winded going for walks with my wife and daughter, and I couldn't even comfortably reach around and wipe my own damn ass (sad, I know).

I had to have a moment of clarity.  I saw myself dead before I could play with my daughter, I hated going to the pool or beach so I would miss these opportunities.  I had always dreamed of coaching my daughters softball/swim/whatever team and there's no way I could have participated in that. I loathed what I had done to myself.

So first step.  Change my diet.  It was something I could do, and I coupled it initially with progressively longer walks.

I found that when I bought organic free range eggs, organic or grass-fed beef and chicken, wild caught fish, fresh organic fruits and veggies (though maybe a bit less so with fruit and veggies if I buy from the local farmers market to support local businesses), organic cottage cheese, butter, milk, yogurt and other dairy, blah, blah, blah..... And eating these things in appropriate portions at the right time of day,  I realized that I stopped spending money on chips, sodas, boxed foods, cookies, cakes, sugary popsicles. etc.

After doing a grocery bill analysis after 6-months (thank god for personal finance software that lets you categorize expenditures), I found that I spent between $50-$100 less each month!  And the refrigerator was always full!

I didn't totally do away with tasty treats either, there are a LOT of yummy things you can make with fruit, yogurt, organic skim milk and an ice cream maker, as well as a few popsicle molds.  And you can get some organic cookies that aren't unhealthy.

My life is dramatically different after a year (60 lbs lighter), and I have begun a recent exercise program that I hope will take me that last 30-35 lbs to my old fit self.  I have a naturally muscular frame, though I am short, and I can retain muscle mass well, but I always had difficulty with lean abs look.  So I now have a Nov-Dec goal to get there. 

At my last doctor's appt two weeks ago, my cholesterol is under 200 with my triglycerides under control, my blood pressure is 130/75, my fasting blood sugar is 75 and I am officially no longer prediabetic.  I have work to do still, and has been including more rigorous exercise, but my wife finds me sexier (sex life is 1000x better), I can run around with my 3yr old daughter all weekend, my back pain has gone away, and I sleep deeper and more consistently at night. I stopped popping antacids like candy, taking prilosec every night and I have been taken off my cholesterol and blood pressure medication.

(Bullgrit, I am working up to P90x, I am halfway through their easier Power90, though for a guy like me it still kicks my butt every day and I am already doing the advanced group of exercises  - Phase 3-4.  P90x will be started sometime this summer.)

I know that was a bit of a tangent, but I wanted to point out that the costs of NOT going organic or healthy are way higher if you are out of shape like I was or even just chubby.  Don't let the cost deter you, you will SAVE money over the long term.


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## Umbran (May 20, 2011)

catsclaw227 said:


> With my group, by the time everyone shows up, and we get through the first 30mins of catching up on the past two weeks (or more) as friends, we only have 4-5 hours to get our gaming on.  Mostly, our rule is to eat before you come over, or bring your meal along if you want and eat during pregame chat.




My game runs on Tuesday evenings, after work, and the next day is also a workday.  So, at the absolute best, everyone is together for 5 hours.  We do the meals anyway.  Yes, my sessions are short.  That's life.



Dannyalcatraz said:


> Torturer!
> Salty, fatty, and sweet snacks are a fundamental right of gamers everywhere!




I don't ban them from the table.  If anyone wants to bring them, he's welcome to.  But I'm already providing the venue, and a meal, at no cost to my players.  I don't think I'm obligated to provide those snacks as well.




catsclaw227 said:


> Interestingly, in my experience (and I can only speak for myself), I found the whole "organic is too expensive" thing a fallacy.




If you are replacing large amounts of crappy, prepared foods with a smaller amount of organic stuff, yes, you can see a savings.  But if you're already avoiding the crappy food, and replacing non-organic products with the organic stuff, you will generally be paying more for the organics.

There are a few exceptions.  I have a Whole Foods within a mile of my home, and a standard supermarket slightly farther away, so I shop at both regularly.  For a small number of items, the Whole Foods "365" house brand meets or beats what I'd be paying at the supermarket - for butter and jarred roasted red peppers, for example.  But for the most part, the organics are simply more expensive, item by item.

And, in produce specifically, if you set aside the desired properties of organicness, I find that the fresh produce in the Whole Foods is usually not superior to the conventional market's offerings.  This is because the quality of fresh produce is strongly tied to throughput.  The Whole Foods has fewer customers, so they take longer to go through any given shipment of, say, green bell peppers.  The peppers at Whole Foods has been sitting in the market longer than at the standard market, on average, so they aren't as nice.


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## Rhun (May 20, 2011)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Side note on ground meats (of all kinds): READ YOUR LABELS!!!!
> 
> Some are OK, but as my wondering eyes soon perceived, even this simple product may have additives.  I went shopping for ground pork one day to make home-made sausage patties and my Spidey Sense triggered, making me read the label.  The meat had been pre-salted, and was over 500mg sodium/serving.  Pork is NOT that salty: unprocessed pork is about 1/10th that amount.  I bought some pork loin and ground it myself.




Interestingly, a recent study might show that high sodium could be good for healthy individuals.

This kind of goes back to my opinion of everything in moderation. What one person says is bad isn't necessarily bad, and vise versa.


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## Bedrockgames (May 20, 2011)

Umbran said:


> If you are replacing large amounts of crappy, prepared foods with a smaller amount of organic stuff, yes, you can see a savings.  But if you're already avoiding the crappy food, and replacing non-organic products with the organic stuff, you will generally be paying more for the organics.




This has basically been my experience. 



> There are a few exceptions.  I have a Whole Foods within a mile of my home, and a standard supermarket slightly farther away, so I shop at both regularly.  For a small number of items, the Whole Foods "365" house brand meets or beats what I'd be paying at the supermarket - for butter and jarred roasted red peppers, for example.  But for the most part, the organics are simply more expensive, item by item.




The wife and I go to wholefoods once a month, but do the rest of our shopping at MarketBasket. This way we get some organic and interesting foods but don't break the bank. One thing to watch out for at wholefoods is you pay a higher price often for food that isn't neccessarily organic, so check the labels if organic is what you are shooting for (this may have changed, but several years ago I worked in a wholefoods and at the time this was the case). 



> And, in produce specifically, if you set aside the desired properties of organicness, I find that the fresh produce in the Whole Foods is usually not superior to the conventional market's offerings.  This is because the quality of fresh produce is strongly tied to throughput.  The Whole Foods has fewer customers, so they take longer to go through any given shipment of, say, green bell peppers.  The peppers at Whole Foods has been sitting in the market longer than at the standard market, on average, so they aren't as nice.




I've found this. Also found it to be the case with meat and fish. We've bought tons of bad meat at Shaws. Marketbasket (at least the one I go to) has so many customers, the meat is always moving. So we've never had an issue there.


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## catsclaw227 (May 20, 2011)

Umbran said:


> If you are replacing large amounts of crappy, prepared foods with a smaller amount of organic stuff, yes, you can see a savings.  But if you're already avoiding the crappy food, and replacing non-organic products with the organic stuff, you will generally be paying more for the organics.




If you are already eating healthy and are in shape, then organic will cost you a bit more, yes.  I was referring to my experience in making a lifestyle change.  Though you would be surprised at the chemicals that are used in and on non-natural or organic foods.  I mean, they can't be all that good for you, can they?



Umbran said:


> There are a few exceptions.  I have a Whole Foods within a mile of my home, and a standard supermarket slightly farther away, so I shop at both regularly.  For a small number of items, the Whole Foods "365" house brand meets or beats what I'd be paying at the supermarket - for butter and jarred roasted red peppers, for example.  But for the most part, the organics are simply more expensive, item by item.




I find the same thing at our Whole Foods, and even at my Trader Joe's. The house brand is comparable to anything at the conventional grocery store.  And even my Harris Teeter (local conventional grocery, though slightly higher quality) has a naturals brand (and organic) that are less expensive than other organic brands.



Umbran said:


> And, in produce specifically, if you set aside the desired properties of organicness, I find that the fresh produce in the Whole Foods is usually not superior to the conventional market's offerings.  This is because the quality of fresh produce is strongly tied to throughput.  The Whole Foods has fewer customers, so they take longer to go through any given shipment of, say, green bell peppers.  The peppers at Whole Foods has been sitting in the market longer than at the standard market, on average, so they aren't as nice.




Interestingly, our Whole Foods is packed during the same times our regular grocers are also busy.  They have a good manager, so they do a good job of Just-In-Time inventory control of their produce, so it's almost always very fresh. It's also likely busy because it's the only one in our town and people flock there for their health foods. (There or Trader Joe's)  

I wish we had a couple of nice healthy, family, independent markets like my sister has in Tucson, but we don't.


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## AdmundfortGeographer (May 20, 2011)

Scott DeWar said:


> as has been mentioned many times here: portion control.



I read it each time, I thought I would share a high profile article on the subject matter.


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## Umbran (May 20, 2011)

Bedrockgames said:


> One thing to watch out for at wholefoods is you pay a higher price often for food that isn't neccessarily organic, so check the labels if organic is what you are shooting for




My Whole Foods does sell some conventional products, so there is that possibility, yes.  It isn't an issue for me, as I'm not shopping for organic - I shop there for convenience (it is a quicker trip), and for higher-end or more obscure products I cannot find at standard markets as easily.



catsclaw227 said:


> Though you would be surprised at the chemicals that are used in and on non-natural or organic foods.




No, I wouldn't be surprised, but I'm perhaps somewhat more educated than most on the subject.  



> I mean, they can't be all that good for you, can they?




As we've noted several times already in this thread: whether or not a thing is bad for a human body depends very much on how much of the stuff you take in.  Just plain sugar is horrible for you if you take in too much.   

Sure, if I suck directly on the nozzle of the crop duster, I'm apt to not feel too well afterwards.  But by the time it gets to me, and into my system, the chemicals are not present in doses I feel a need to worry about.



> Interestingly, our Whole Foods is packed during the same times our regular grocers are also busy.




Location matters.  We have a second Whole Foods not too far away that seems to have better produce than the nearby one - that store is larger, has been there longer, is farther from the nearest conventional supermarket.  Overall, it has greater traffic than my local WF, so more throughput.  My point is "organic" does not imply "better quality" for produce.


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## greatamericanfolkher (May 20, 2011)

catsclaw227 said:


> Here are more easy ones to remember....
> 
> 1. 4 words.  "Eat Less, Move more."
> 
> ...




This is how I've lost 20 pounds (so far) this year.


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## catsclaw227 (May 20, 2011)

Umbran said:


> catsclaw227 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I know I was quoting you, but that statement was meant for the general "you", not you personally.  I should have been clearer.



Umbran said:


> As we've noted several times already in this thread: whether or not a thing is bad for a human body depends very much on how much of the stuff you take in.  Just plain sugar is horrible for you if you take in too much.
> 
> Sure, if I suck directly on the nozzle of the crop duster, I'm apt to not feel too well afterwards.  But by the time it gets to me, and into my system, the chemicals are not present in doses I feel a need to worry about.




Obviously, the pesticides on fruit and vegetables that conventional growers use must pass USDA government safety thresholds, but there are other things that make Organic better, such as USDA regulation bans or severe restrictions on food additives, processing aids - substances used during processing, but not added directly to food (like the way canola oil is processed, scary) - as well as fortifying agents.  Some of these include preservatives, artificial sweeteners, colorings and flavorings, and MSG.

Also, personally, it helps me take one step closer to lowering my carbon footprint because organic farming practices are designed to benefit the environment by reducing pollution and conserving water and soil quality.

I know there are other ways, but this one little thing helps me and the environment.

I am not an organic freak.  I also am not a vegetarian, but I have found that my health has improved dramatically.


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## Dannyalcatraz (May 21, 2011)

On the cost of organics:

It depends on what you're buying and where.  Organic Peanut Butters where I am cost 2-3x Peter Pan.  And my dogs don't like it- we give them their meds in PB- so it's just not worth it.

Similarly, organic turkeys are quite pricey where I am as well, and I can get nice, fresh turkeys with no preservatives, etc. easily at half the price or better.  Since I cook about one 20lb bird per month over the course of a year, that adds up quickly.

OTOH, I've found great deals on organic produce and certain meats- especially exotics- and get them when I can.


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## Scott DeWar (May 21, 2011)

Umbran said:


> We go one step further, in that whenever our schedule allows, we serve a home-cooked meal for games.  Not much call for munching the salty, fatty, or sweet snacks when you've had a healthy dinner before play begins.




that is great!


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## catsclaw227 (May 21, 2011)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> It depends on what you're buying and where.  Organic Peanut Butters where I am cost 2-3x Peter Pan.  And my dogs don't like it- we give them their meds in PB- so it's just not worth it.




Ha!  I guess in your case, if the dog eats as much as you, then going Organic might not make sense. 



Dannyalcatraz said:


> Similarly, organic turkeys are quite pricey where I am as well, and I can get nice, fresh turkeys with no preservatives, etc. easily at half the price or better.  Since I cook about one 20lb bird per month over the course of a year, that adds up quickly.




That's a lot of turkey!  Your family must love turkey sandwiches!

Are the plain ol' free range turkeys as expensive as Organic where you are?  Whole Organic Turkeys are really expensive because to be certified organic, the farmer has to give them organic feed as well, and that gets expensive.


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## Scott DeWar (May 21, 2011)

herein the puny po-dunk town of Columbia Missouri we have 3 hy-vees that tend to have the high end of produce. the organic is even purchased from local farms when possible. There are two clover's natural food markets that only buy certified organic IIRC-I know the owners, As I did 95% of the electrical work on the second clover's market, and there are at least 3 Asian markets and one middle-eastern market. I even found 1 eastern European market. of those all, The Hyvee's and clovers have the best organic. a korean market has fresh produce, just not organic as far as i know. 

The over all price of the organic foods is still higher then non organic. sometimes as a factor of 3 to 5 (usually 1.5 to 3). When I have ask my self which one of three things I will have to pass one: gas/Insurance; nice food or rent/utilities, I see that the nice food will have to be set aside. I get beer once a month-one 6pac-that is my entertainment expense.


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## Dannyalcatraz (May 21, 2011)

> That's a lot of turkey!  Your family must love turkey sandwiches!




First of all, I make one of the best turkeys out there.

Second, once I get that bird cooked, we use him for all kinds of things (after the initial dining experience): turkey sandwiches, turkey salad, as an ingredient in soups and gumbos, and the carcass becomes the basis for a stock I use in beans, greens, and soups/stews.



> Are the plain ol' free range turkeys as expensive as Organic where you are?



We don't see too many of those, so I can't really say.  I don't even recall when last I saw one.



> ...my blood pressure was 165/110...




Amateur!  I nearly killed my doctor trying to figure out what was going on with me!

I had more than one reading of 220+/200+.  I was completely asymptomatic.  My daily sodium intake was judged to be around 2700mg a day.  All of my blood tests came back dead center of the normal range.  After doing various tests that involved me taking dyes and diuretics and sitting in a scanner until I damn near wet myself, they tried me on an ultra-low sodium diet and a more powerful diuretic medication.

In 2 weeks, my BP dropped Into the 150/100 range and I dropped 20lbs of water weight as I did my impression of a water clock set for 15 minute intervals.


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## catsclaw227 (May 21, 2011)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> First of all, I make one of the best turkeys out there.
> 
> Second, once I get that bird cooked, we use him for all kinds of things (after the initial dining experience): turkey sandwiches, turkey salad, as an ingredient in soups and gumbos, and the carcass becomes the basis for a stock I use in beans, greens, and soups/stews.




Wow... I can feel my mouth water just reading this.  Good thing I already ate this morning. 




Dannyalcatraz said:


> Amateur!  I nearly killed my doctor trying to figure out what was going on with me!
> 
> I had more than one reading of 220+/200+.




Holy sh...[grandma filter]!



Dannyalcatraz said:


> I was completely asymptomatic.  My daily sodium intake was judged to be around 2700mg a day.




That's a little high, but not that far off the RDI for sodium.  



> All of my blood tests came back dead center of the normal range.  After doing various tests that involved me taking dyes and diuretics and sitting in a scanner until I damn near wet myself, they tried me on an ultra-low sodium diet and a more powerful diuretic medication.
> 
> In 2 weeks, my BP dropped Into the 150/100 range and I dropped 20lbs of water weight as I did my impression of a water clock set for 15 minute intervals.



My god...  So did they ever find out the root cause? Or were they just finally relieved that they were able to get your BP into controllable ranges?

Were you bloated as if you had edema?

Or was there some bizarre biochemical reaction to something else that prevented you from normally processing sodium?  There might have been some toxin or medicine that had a contraindication or interaction with sodium that prevented you from normally expelling it from your system.  Like the opposite of how ACE Inhibitors can cause hyponatremia.


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## Dannyalcatraz (May 21, 2011)

> My god... So did they ever find out the root cause? Or were they just finally relieved that they were able to get your BP into controllable ranges?
> 
> Were you bloated as if you had edema?




Yep- my sodium intake, modest though it was- was causing "Funky Cold Edema".

When I was diagnosed, 2000mg/day was considered a "low-sodium" diet, even though that was the number they calculated the RDA off of.   Its only in the past few years that this level has become the RDA in the press releases.  So now, I'm on a 2000mg or less diet (w/meds, of course), and my BP Is typically in the 130/80 range.

But the adventure never ends: my old doc retired and my new doc added one med to the mix- hydroclorothyazide (which I'd had before, to almost no effect)- so now I'm getting occasional dizzy spells of "the room is spinning!" magnitude.

And of course, if I drink alcohol, I have to be VERY careful.  Alcohol magnifies some of my meds' effects.  Roughly speaking, 1 drink = 3 drinks in terms of how my reflexes are affected...but that is coupled with the standard effect on my mind and duration.  So it's like being mildly intoxicated in a drunk's body.


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## catsclaw227 (May 21, 2011)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Yep- my sodium intake, modest though it was- was causing "Funky Cold Edema".
> 
> When I was diagnosed, 2000mg/day was considered a "low-sodium" diet, even though that was the number they calculated the RDA off of.   Its only in the past few years that this level has become the RDA in the press releases.  So now, I'm on a 2000mg or less diet (w/meds, of course), and my BP Is typically in the 130/80 range.




Yea... those numbers have changed.  the RDA measurement is sorta out of date, Nutritionists prefer a RDI (Recommended Daily Intake) and there is actually there is something called UL (Upper Tolerable Limit) also called a DV (Daily Value).  Unfortunately, the UL is often used by food manufacturers and fast food companies to describe RDA.  Yes, that is the maximum Recommended Daily Allowance, but they like to leave out the "maximum" part.


For sodium, it depends upon age, but the RDI for 15-50 yrs is 1500mg and it goes down as you age. (1300 for 51-70, 1200 for 71+).  The new UL of sodium is 2300/day.

Buying canned goods off the shelf or boxed goods from the "inner aisles" at the grocery store can quickly get someone over their sodium RDI and blasting above their UL.



> But the adventure never ends: my old doc retired and my new doc added one med to the mix- hydroclorothyazide (which I'd had before, to almost no effect)- so now I'm getting occasional dizzy spells of "the room is spinning!" magnitude.




Yep.  I had that one too, and I had a terrible potassium depletion due to it.  Your doc should have had you run labs after a month of taking the hydroclorothyazide to check your potassium levels (and possibly your fasting blood glucose).  Zinc and magnesium, too. 

Thiazide diuretics (hydrochlorothiazide is one) commonly produce loss of potassium. Supplementation is often necessary. 

I made sure I checked with my pharmacist about any special supplementation I would require due to taking the drug. Many Doctors, unfortunately, don't know all the drug/nutrient interactions or depletions of the pharmaceuticals they prescribe.

BTW -- do you eat much black licorice?  That can cause a condition called hypermineralocorticoidism and it can get nasty.


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## Scott DeWar (May 21, 2011)

I get that when i take 2.5mg of lysinaporil-no imagine being at the top af a ladder whenthe med kicks in. NOT.FUN.


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## Rhun (May 21, 2011)

Scott DeWar said:


> I get that when i take 2.5mg of lysinaporil-no imagine being at the top af a ladder whenthe med kicks in. NOT.FUN.




Small world. I take Lisinopril too. Though I think I preferred Benecar. Stupid genetic high blood pressure! 

At any rate, now I'm off to eat bratwurst and drink beer.


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## catsclaw227 (May 21, 2011)

Take care what you eat or take with lisinopril.  Especially caffeine.

NHI OnDemand - Search Interactions & Depletions

Each of the listed herbs or ingredients can interact with (or be depleted by) antihypertensive meds or ACE Inhibitors (lisinopril is both)


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## Dannyalcatraz (May 22, 2011)

Had my potassium checked- a tad low, but so far, Doc hasn't added a K supplement into my meds.

As for licorice: UGHOH_HELL_NO!


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## Bedrockgames (May 22, 2011)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Had my potassium checked- a tad low, but so far, Doc hasn't added a K supplement into my meds.
> 
> As for licorice: UGHOH_HELL_NO!




Last time I went to the emergency room, turned out I had low potassium.


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## Dannyalcatraz (May 22, 2011)

Bedrockgames said:


> Last time I went to the emergency room, turned out I had low potassium.




For me: a diverticulitis flareup & diagnosis.  How I used to laugh (weakly) at the old SNL skits...but that HURT!  I thought I had ripped my abdomen or something!

Again, though, it's one of those ailments you can largely control with diet.  No clue as to why I have it- I've always been happy eating my greens & grains, so roughage is not an issue for me.

Funny thing is, though, that if you're having a flareup, roughage is the last thing you want.  It exacerbates the irritation connected to the bacterial infection, giving them more of your body to work with.  That's what happened to me- I had been on a nearly vegetarian diet for about 3 days when I had my first (and so far, last) flareup.


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## catsclaw227 (May 22, 2011)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Had my potassium checked- a tad low, but so far, Doc hasn't added a K supplement into my meds.



That's good.  Normal potassiun ranges are fairly small, like 3.5–5.0 something-or-others, and when I was at my grossest fatness, the hydrochlorothiazide made mine like 2.1, which I guess is pretty low. Though I was depressed drinking at the time and high intake of alcohol can exacerbate it as well. (100 proof peppermint schnapps every night -- thick sugary syrup on top of alcohol that converts to sugar -- a diabetes inducing cocktail, no doubt.) 



Dannyalcatraz said:


> As for licorice: UGHOH_HELL_NO!



Ha!  Me too, me too.  I don't know how people can eat that stuff.


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## Bedrockgames (May 22, 2011)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> For me: a diverticulitis flareup & diagnosis. How I used to laugh (weakly) at the old SNL skits...but that HURT! I thought I had ripped my abdomen or something!
> 
> Again, though, it's one of those ailments you can largely control with diet. No clue as to why I have it- I've always been happy eating my greens & grains, so roughage is not an issue for me.
> 
> Funny thing is, though, that if you're having a flareup, roughage is the last thing you want. It exacerbates the irritation connected to the bacterial infection, giving them more of your body to work with. That's what happened to me- I had been on a nearly vegetarian diet for about 3 days when I had my first (and so far, last) flareup.




I became quite ill from an intersphincteric abcess in January. So I know what you mean. Those kinds of infections can be incredibly painful and difficult to eliminate (this abcess has recurred three times and I just had an MRI yesterday to see if it came back again). 

In my case, they are concerned I may have an underlying condition like yours (except they suspect ulcerative colitis or crones). Lots of my blood levels have been off since this started. So following my procedures I've gone to the emergency room for a variety of symptoms.


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## Scott DeWar (May 22, 2011)

black licorice is my oh so yummy favorite!!


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## Rhun (May 23, 2011)

catsclaw227 said:


> That's good.  Normal potassiun ranges are fairly small, like 3.5–5.0 something-or-others, and when I was at my grossest fatness, the hydrochlorothiazide made mine like 2.1, which I guess is pretty low. Though I was depressed drinking at the time and high intake of alcohol can exacerbate it as well. (100 proof peppermint schnapps every night -- thick sugary syrup on top of alcohol that converts to sugar -- a diabetes inducing cocktail, no doubt.)




My potassium was a 4.6 in March when I had my blood work done, so I'm good there. Of course, I stay away from the schnapps most of the time.


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## Bedrockgames (May 24, 2011)

Scott DeWar said:


> black licorice is my oh so yummy favorite!!




Delicious.


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## Scott DeWar (May 24, 2011)

Scott DeWar said:


> black licorice is my oh so yummy favorite!!






Bedrockgames said:


> Delicious.



thank you for the correction:

black licorice is my oh so Delicious yummy favorite


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## Rhun (May 24, 2011)

Scott DeWar said:


> thank you for the correction:
> 
> black licorice is my oh so Delicious yummy favorite




It is pretty tasty.


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