# Confession...It's good for the soul.



## Malvoisin (Jan 7, 2008)

Eh, let's just do this thing AA style...

My name is Nate and I abandon PbP games.

I'm not a malicious person, nor really an irresponsible person. I think it's just that my interest and enthusiasm burn brightly for a short time, and then I burn out. But I always feel so bad about it (all the while hoping I'll get the fire back) that I inevitably just disappear without explanation. And then after a while, the desire to DM or play (usually DM) wells up again. But in the meantime, I've gone silent, the game has lost its momentum, and sometimes the interest of its players. So, rather than try to get a good thing rolling again, I usually just start over from scratch...often with a different screen identity.

How many of these ring a bell?

Malvoisin
Ye Olde Albatross
Krago o' the Mountain
Krauss von Espy (Heinz the Baron)
Cry Havoc!
Outrigger Jim
Sebastian O
Professor Parsnip
Watermark12
...probably some others, shorter lived, that I can't recall

Yep, they're all me.   

So, why am I posting this here and now? I guess just because it's been my guilty little secret for so long, and I miss being able to interact with the excellent community on these boards. And, as the thread title says, confession is good for the soul. 

Also, I wanted to just apologize to the many of you that I've abandoned. Some of you, many times over. But, we've had some good times, haven't we? I know I have. A few highlights come to mind...

I enjoyed running Voadam, Isida, Insight, and JimAde (now Ilium) through the very early part of Maure Castle. I still to this day can't believe how you guys took down that 



Spoiler



iron golem


!

Age of Worms, abandoned by me, picked up again by Branding Opportunity (then again by someone else, and perhaps again a fourth time?) I thought that was funny.

Hollow's Last Hope...great party there. Nazhkandrias, Jebbo was priceless.

Some really interesting concepts for Vampires of Waterdeep. Voadam's aranea in particular. I noticed more recently he got placed in another VoW game...that also folded (that one wasn't me though!).

Ryan Nock was so supportive when I tried to start up War of the Burning Sky. That campaign deserves better than I could muster...it's really very cool.

I think I tried to run Shackled City more than any other...five times maybe in total? Dichotomy, I really did like how you played Konstantine. A great bard. And Jdvn1, Dowlee the Favored Soul got abandoned twice. I'm so sorry.

And, my magnum opus, that lasted longer than any other, but still ended far too soon...The Savage Tide. My hat's off to all of you guys, especially those who were there from the start. I lost my heart for it after GwydapLlew disappeared, I loved Chongo so. Even though I tried more recently to cast resurrect, I couldn't get the juices flowing like before. Especial apologies to James Heard for putting in all that time creating Hap, and never getting to post once.

All these games, and so many, many others. Sunless Citadel, assorted Dungeon Crawl Classics, Necromancer adventures, numerous Dungeon magazine adventures. In the end, I couldn't sustain any of them.

When all is said and done, I hope you all will forgive me, even if you don't understand me. I hardly do myself. But, hey, if anyone wants to talk about it (even to chew me out), I'm here.

Thanks for reading, all.


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## Voadam (Jan 7, 2008)

Oh. My. Goodness.

I think I've been in games run by five of your different screen names.

Wow.


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## Malvoisin (Jan 8, 2008)

I know, Voadam...you deserve perhaps the biggest apology of all, just for that reason.   

Perhaps on the brighter side, you can tell that I think highly of you as a player?


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## CanadienneBacon (Jan 8, 2008)

I laughed......

Malvoisin, you rock!     I have only two screen names here and one of 'em I really have only used for two or three posts, but I'd be lying if I said I haven't been tempted to re-boot different campaigns (City of the Spider Queen, I'm lookin' at you) under different "DM" names.  Hats off to you for your honesty.  

I always did like Ye Olde Albatross.


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Jan 8, 2008)

I recall Silence, the cleric in your Maure Castle game, the one who had, logically, taken the Vow of Silence, with great fondness.  PbP was such a great medium to play that character, and I had a lot of fun in that game.


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## Malvoisin (Jan 8, 2008)

CanadienneBacon said:
			
		

> I laughed......
> 
> Malvoisin, you rock!     I have only two screen names here and one of 'em I really have only used for two or three posts, but I'd be lying if I said I haven't been tempted to re-boot different campaigns (City of the Spider Queen, I'm lookin' at you) under different "DM" names.  Hats off to you for your honesty.
> 
> I always did like Ye Olde Albatross.



CB, thanks for your supportive words! I have a tremendous amount of respect for your terrific DMing skill as well.

I think one of my issues is that although I truly do enjoy playing and DMing on these boards, I hold myself to a very high standard in doing so. In order to commit to that high standard, I inevitably have to begin sacrificing some other part of my life in order to make time for PbP. Sooner or later, that always catches up to me, leaving me conflicted and often feeling guilty.

I say all this because I wonder, with your comings and goings, if you don't experience a similar thing.


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## Malvoisin (Jan 8, 2008)

Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> I recall Silence, the cleric in your Maure Castle game, the one who had, logically, taken the Vow of Silence, with great fondness.  PbP was such a great medium to play that character, and I had a lot of fun in that game.



Thanks, Isida. I had a lot of fun DMing Maure as well. I think that may have been the first time I tried to use a scan of a published map as a play aide for the players. I think it worked fairly well, but it was difficult, because the map is so flippin' huge!

Part of the reason I had to bail on that one is that I was over my head in terms of power level. Not the last time that happened, mind you...but I seemed to always do better with lower level games.


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## Creamsteak (Jan 8, 2008)

I have no doubt that other people have pulled off a similar "changing of identities" around here, though yours may well be the most extreme.


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## Rhun (Jan 8, 2008)

You only abandoned two games that I was in, and you are forgiven...though I am definitely missing Savage Tide. Anar was a favorite PC of mine.

Still, props for having the stones to come on here and admit to the changing screen names! It shows rare character.


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## James Heard (Jan 8, 2008)

One point: Other people might change their names, but I'll never be a "Jim" Heard.  For some reason the idea of me as a Jim just sort of summons images of me looking in the mirror with a Burt Reynolds moustache and mutton chops, wearing a big cowboy hat and snarling with a cigarette dangling from my lip. I'm not that guy.


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## Scotley (Jan 8, 2008)

I've been in two of your games as well. It is frustrating. We put a lot of working into characters and it is more than a little annoying to have the game just vanish. I'm glad you've come forward to confess. For future reference, I would prefer to know what happened and why rather than just be waiting for the next post. We all get busy with RL at times. I've very nearly shut down a game I was running on occation when 'the fire died'. I was forturnate enough to get back on track before the players got frustrated and abandoned the game. Anyway, I'm glad you decided to come forward. All is forgiven.


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## Malvoisin (Jan 8, 2008)

James Heard said:
			
		

> One point: Other people might change their names, but I'll never be a "Jim" Heard.  For some reason the idea of me as a Jim just sort of summons images of me looking in the mirror with a Burt Reynolds moustache and mutton chops, wearing a big cowboy hat and snarling with a cigarette dangling from my lip. I'm not that guy.



Whoops, sorry James, I'm not sure how that happened. I corrected the mistake in the post above.


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## Malvoisin (Jan 8, 2008)

Creamsteak said:
			
		

> I have no doubt that other people have pulled off a similar "changing of identities" around here, though yours may well be the most extreme.



Who knows, perhaps my admission might inspire others to do the same?


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## Malvoisin (Jan 8, 2008)

Scotley said:
			
		

> I've been in two of your games as well. It is frustrating. We put a lot of working into characters and it is more than a little annoying to have the game just vanish. I'm glad you've come forward to confess. For future reference, I would prefer to know what happened and why rather than just be waiting for the next post. We all get busy with RL at times. I've very nearly shut down a game I was running on occation when 'the fire died'. I was forturnate enough to get back on track before the players got frustrated and abandoned the game. Anyway, I'm glad you decided to come forward. All is forgiven.



Scotley, I understand and sympathize with the frustration. I think that part of my motivation for posting this now, is to try and make sure I will never 'disappear' again. If I should ever try to run a game here again (a big IF!...I'm not sure how many of you would even take the chance now), I'll do my best to be more forthright and up-front with the players.

Nonetheless, thank you saying that all is forgiven. That means a lot to me.


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## Scotley (Jan 8, 2008)

Many of the folks here are addicted. If you build it they will come. Maybe you should try to limit the scope of the next game you attempt? A small adventure with a definite beginning and end. If all goes well, you can let any who are interested carry characters over to the next one you decide to run.


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## James Heard (Jan 8, 2008)

*shrug* I always kind of assume that a few games I sign up for are going to end up being a wash for one reason or another. That includes real life games. Stuff happens, and since it's the internet I don't think anyone owes anyone any explanations either. If the worst disappointment I have in any given day is a game failing to deliver then it's probably a pretty good day.

On the other hand, I don't consider PbP gaming as gaming as much as writing. I'd be doing about the same amount of it anyways, so why not do it with other people?


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## Malvoisin (Jan 8, 2008)

Scotley said:
			
		

> Many of the folks here are addicted. If you build it they will come. Maybe you should try to limit the scope of the next game you attempt? A small adventure with a definite beginning and end. If all goes well, you can let any who are interested carry characters over to the next one you decide to run.



Definitely good advice, sir. I'll take it into consideration if I do ever decide to try and run a game here again. Which I might.


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## Malvoisin (Jan 8, 2008)

James Heard said:
			
		

> *shrug* I always kind of assume that a few games I sign up for are going to end up being a wash for one reason or another. That includes real life games. Stuff happens, and since it's the internet I don't think anyone owes anyone any explanations either. If the worst disappointment I have in any given day is a game failing to deliver then it's probably a pretty good day.
> 
> On the other hand, I don't consider PbP gaming as gaming as much as writing. I'd be doing about the same amount of it anyways, so why not do it with other people?



Very understanding, very Zen. Good stuff, James (definitely not Jim).

I always liked the social aspects of the experience myself.


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## stonegod (Jan 8, 2008)

Damn you Mal! Damn you to Hell! 



I'm a three-fer, but all under the same username. Voadam's got me beat!

I do get frustrated at disappearances as you know; mostly, I just appreciate some warning. But its good to come clean.

See you around.


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## Malvoisin (Jan 8, 2008)

stonegod said:
			
		

> Damn you Mal! Damn you to Hell!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks, brah.   

Mad Col is, was, and always will be one of my faves. And, I have a tremendous respect for your Expedition to Ravenloft campaign. Lots of PC comings and goings, and you've kept right on trucking.

It's good to come clean, indeed.


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## CanadienneBacon (Jan 9, 2008)

Malvoisin said:
			
		

> I say all this because I wonder, with your comings and goings, if you don't experience a similar thing.



Oh, definitely.  I like to write, so PbP is the perfect instrument for me.  I purposefully make probably 75% of my PbP DMing responses description-intensive.  'Cause that's how I excise my need to let my inner creative-writing demon out.  But then that demon turns around every single time and bites me on the ass, ie: writing that much burns me out.  

I know from past experience that I *cannot* DM more than one PbP game _longterm_.  Pretty much every day I've been away from EN World's PbP section, I've had to restrain myself from starting yet another game.  I love the excitement of starting a fresh game.  Prollie my favorite part, actually.  I come here and browse frequently.  I love to DM and I love to write, so this place is the perfect medium for me.  

When you sense you're going to quit, though, you gotta own up to it and let the players know.  No one likes disappointing other people, and quitting DMing does end up disappointing lots of folks.  But it's an easier--even if still bitter--pill to swallow if the DM shows up in the thread and says, "Hey, I ain't doing this no more because..."


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## CanadienneBacon (Jan 9, 2008)

Malvoisin said:
			
		

> Definitely good advice, sir. I'll take it into consideration if I do ever decide to try and run a game here again. Which I might.



Naw, you won't.  You won't take his advice, I mean.  I know you'll DM more games here.  And you very well may bail on some of 'em.  I feel I can say that because I'm in the same boat as you.    

But at least now we know you and you know we like you, faults included.  That, sir, is the basis of friendship!


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## Legildur (Jan 9, 2008)

Hey Mal, I was just getting into the Savage Tide when you Hid in Plain Sight...

I admit that I really don't get it - once yeah, but as a recidivist?

My only real complaint is that it takes time to build a character and the feeling of time lost that could have been committed to a long term game (I've been playing the same character in a PbEM game since 1996).

However, good on you for coming forward. That really does take some stones and I commend you for it.

Let me add, I thought you did a pretty solid job as a DM.

And no hard feelings here.


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## Malvoisin (Jan 9, 2008)

CanadienneBacon said:
			
		

> Naw, you won't.  You won't take his advice, I mean.  I know you'll DM more games here.  And you very well may bail on some of 'em.  I feel I can say that because I'm in the same boat as you.
> 
> But at least now we know you and you know we like you, faults included.  That, sir, is the basis of friendship!



Heh...you're probably right, CB. For better or worse...  

I feel like we are kindred spirits, after a fashion, but with the primary difference being that you have always let your players know when you had to walk away. That's what I'll aspire to next time, as well.

I appreciate the words of friendship as well...very much.


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## Malvoisin (Jan 9, 2008)

Legildur said:
			
		

> Hey Mal, I was just getting into the Savage Tide when you Hid in Plain Sight...
> 
> I admit that I really don't get it - once yeah, but as a recidivist?
> 
> ...



Hi, Legildur.

I know, it's difficult to understand. I don't have any rational reason for doing what I did, except I guess that I couldn't own up to needing to end a game for whatever reason. This medium of the internet makes it too easy to take the cowardly way out, I guess.

In part, creating this thread now is my way of saying to myself 'No more of that!'

Anyhow, you've been a good player, and I'm glad there are no hard feelings.


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## Malvoisin (Jan 9, 2008)

Rhun said:
			
		

> You only abandoned two games that I was in, and you are forgiven...though I am definitely missing Savage Tide. Anar was a favorite PC of mine.
> 
> Still, props for having the stones to come on here and admit to the changing screen names! It shows rare character.



Hey, Rhun. I just realized that you're the only poster in this thread that I haven't replied to...so this one's for you.

Anar was a great PC....there were a lot of them in Savage Tide, which is why it's probably the game I regret folding the most...twice, in fact wasn't it? Once announced, once unannounced. In any case, I fear there's too much water under the bridge now to recapture the magic. But I appreciate your supportive words. Thanks.


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## Rhun (Jan 9, 2008)

Malvoisin said:
			
		

> Anar was a great PC....there were a lot of them in Savage Tide, which is why it's probably the game I regret folding the most...twice, in fact wasn't it? Once announced, once unannounced. In any case, I fear there's too much water under the bridge now to recapture the magic. But I appreciate your supportive words. Thanks.




Indeed, it was twice. 

One thing that I can add from the couple of years I've been playing games here at EN World is that the people here are extremely understanding; there is no reason not to be open with them if a game becomes too much to handle. Everyone that posts here has a real life of their own, and we all understand that things happen. Whether that is taking a few months off or ending a game completely, an explanation is a lot easier to understand than a disappearance.


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## Legildur (Jan 9, 2008)

Besides, if Savage Tide picked up again, who would I be to complain


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## CanadienneBacon (Jan 9, 2008)

I vote we institute the phrase, "He pulled a Mal on us."  Think of it, Malvoisin.  You'll be (in)famous.




just kidding


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## Malvoisin (Jan 9, 2008)

CanadienneBacon said:
			
		

> I vote we institute the phrase, "He pulled a Mal on us."  Think of it, Malvoisin.  You'll be (in)famous.
> just kidding



Errrr...I'm not so sure about that.

Then again, who doesn't want to be (in)famous?


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## DEFCON 1 (Jan 9, 2008)

I think it is certainly emblematic of one of the main problems with PbP gaming here at ENWorld in that every game that is created is defined as a "campaign".

Why do we continue to do that to ourselves?  We all know that most of these things will last only maybe a month to six months max... so we should just be honest with ourselves when we create these games that we DM.

We would all be doing ourselves a favor by just deciding as a community that if we decide to DM a PbP here at ENWorld, we should just say we're DMing an "adventure".  Make it easy on ourselves.  Start with a single adventure that might be a quick module or something... something that might only take three months to complete.  We will still get plenty of people who will sign up to play it, because even simple adventures are fun.  And _THEN_... if the party is able to complete the adventure and the DM is still going strong with the adventure, maybe the group as a whole can decide "you know what?  Let's continue the game into a second part."  And then the group can move onto a next part with the knowledge that they are not beholden to "two more years of this" or whatever stupid ideas we put into our own heads.

Let's make a collective decision to stop putting ourselves under the undo pressure of thinking that our "campaign" game is going to span three years and thousands upon thousands of posts.  Because except in rarest situations, that NEVER happens.  And it makes us feel guilty enough to do what Malvoisin has done, which is disappear for a time and then re-emerge under a different screen name.

Our collective need to make the games we DM seem "epic" or "important" is killing our desire to actually play them.  Small does not mean "bad", just like huge does not mean "good".  Let us stick with small... and when our success rate at finishing "small" games reaches 75%... then we can start becoming "huge" again.


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## Rhun (Jan 9, 2008)

DEFCON 1 said:
			
		

> I think it is certainly emblematic of one of the main problems with PbP gaming here at ENWorld in that every game that is created is defined as a "campaign".
> 
> Why do we continue to do that to ourselves?  We all know that most of these things will last only maybe a month to six months max... so we should just be honest with ourselves when we create these games that we DM.
> 
> ...





I disagree. The very nature of PBP is slow and tedious, but that doesn't mean you can't run a successful campaign. The two games I run are coming up on two years straight, without any long breaks. I'm not sure they qualify as "campaigns" yet per se, but that is mainly because of the incredibly long nature of the supermodules I am running. Effectively, the PCs are on their 3rd "adventure."

I think the problem comes from a lack of commitment. And I think this goes both ways. I as a DM have made a commitment to my players, and I don't intend to let them down. At the same time, I expect that if a player decides to play in one of my games, he won't disappear for a long hiatus without telling me. A game can be kept going with a single post per week if necesary, and how hard is that really? I know that even the people that disappear haven't lost their internet connections...hell, half of them I still see come on these boards and post daily.

I think that more people need to take their commitments serious. Sure real life jumps up and bites all of us in the butt from time to time. Sure, we all get burnt out from time to time. But that is the great thing about PBP. You don't have to allocate 4 or 6 hours out of your day to sit down and play. You can keep a game going simply with a few minutes work per week (obviously, DMing takes a bit more time than playing). And if you take a month off, it is easy to come back and start the game up again because there is a written log of the entire adventure!

Now, with that said, I would have no problem playing short adventures, and have done so here before. Vigwyn the Unruly ran an incredible short adventure that he took from start to finish in *only* six months. It was a blast. And when that game ended, I took my PC from there and am now using him in one of s@squ@tch's adventures. If that turns into a campaign, so much the better. If it doesn't, I may just use that PC in another adventure when this one finishes.

*I hope this post doesn't come off as harsh. I consider all of you that I game / have gamed with to be friends. I just have an incredibly commited personality *


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## Malvoisin (Jan 9, 2008)

Interesting discussion from DEFCON1 and Rhun on the lenghts of 'adventures' vs. 'campaigns', and the issue of commitment.

I agree with some of the points raised by both of you, but I'm more inclined to Rhun's position rather than that of DEFCON1 or, as previously brought up, Scotley.

Long-term games are possible, though perhaps exceptional. Ultimately, it is in the area of commitment that I let down all of my players (and occasionally DMs...Insight and s@squ@tch, most recently). I should have been up front about needing to take a break. It is for that which I apologize...not for my ambition in trying to take on large campaigns.

I guess my eyes are often bigger than my stomach, to use a metaphor from the culinary world.

And, did Rhun just say he needs to be committed? I think he did!


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## Vanifae (Jan 9, 2008)

I have had two aliases on this site.


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## Malvoisin (Jan 9, 2008)

Vanifae said:
			
		

> I have had two aliases on this site.



You're the former Tokiwong, right? So, at least in one case, it was an announced change of alias.

Still...interesting to note.


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## Vanifae (Jan 9, 2008)

Malvoisin said:
			
		

> You're the former Toki Wong, right? So, at least in one case, it was an announced change of alias.
> 
> Still...interesting to note.



 Correct I was formerly Tokiwong.

I have run one game that lasted quite a long time, but as with all things it was its time.


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## Rhun (Jan 9, 2008)

Malvoisin said:
			
		

> And, did Rhun just say he needs to be committed? I think he did!




This may well be true. I am slightly addicted to EN World, after all.




			
				Vanifae said:
			
		

> Correct I was formerly Tokiwong.




You should have selected a symbol for your name, and we could have referred to you as "the Dungeon Master formerly known as Tokiwong."


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## FreeXenon (Jan 9, 2008)

I've got two: Albatross and Sebastian. 
Good to have you back and the explanation is appreciated. 

Welcome back.


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## CanadienneBacon (Jan 9, 2008)

I think Malvoisin is really Piratecat.


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## Malvoisin (Jan 9, 2008)

CanadienneBacon said:
			
		

> I think Malvoisin is really Piratecat.



LOL!   

No, I'm not, I swear!

Don't drag PC into this...


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## Scotley (Jan 9, 2008)

While I recommended a shorter game as a solution to a particular issue and I may run such a game myself in the future as a 'test out 4e' run, I am very much in favor of long term games. I have two games running of the multi-year multi-thousand post variety and a third heading that way. I lack the hubris to say they are 'good' or 'important', but they have been fun for me. I can certainly vouch for the quality of one of Rhun's long running games. I have played in other successful and high quality games here as well. Anyway, my point is that shorter games may be appropriate at times, I was in no way rejecting the longer 'campaign' style of game.


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## s@squ@tch (Jan 9, 2008)

@Mal/YeOldeAlbatross:  I still haven't killed Alessin off, he is still with the group, although he has been joined by Rhun's elven rogue as well (who has no social skills to speak of  )

That one I'm not that worried about.  It was the dropping of Conquest Vale that made me sad -- the group had some very interesting dynamics going on....


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## Rhun (Jan 9, 2008)

s@squ@tch said:
			
		

> @Mal/YeOldeAlbatross:  I still haven't killed Alessin off, he is still with the group, although he has been joined by Rhun's elven rogue as well (who has no social skills to speak of  )




Hey now...he can hide and tumble like it ain't no thing, though! Other than that, our PCs are very similar mechanically.


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## Creamsteak (Jan 9, 2008)

DEFCON 1 said:
			
		

> I think it is certainly emblematic of one of the main problems with PbP gaming here at ENWorld in that every game that is created is defined as a "campaign".
> 
> Why do we continue to do that to ourselves?  We all know that most of these things will last only maybe a month to six months max... so we should just be honest with ourselves when we create these games that we DM.
> 
> ...




Adventure and Campaign are about as useful of a measurement as Session, in that it could mean widely different things. An adventure might span continents and take characters from 1st to 10th level. A Campaign may only involve a few "adventures" all related to a single small town. A session could be a few hours, or (in days past for me) a whole weekend.

However, because of the lack of long running games, that's why I'm a proponent of the Living games here. They somewhat solve that problem by allowing characters to continue, even if a game seems to die out. Hell, that was one of the primary reasons that LEW was originally put together: to let the characters keep going. And, from my perspective, it was pretty successful.


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## Malvoisin (Jan 9, 2008)

s@squ@tch said:
			
		

> @Mal/YeOldeAlbatross:  I still haven't killed Alessin off, he is still with the group, although he has been joined by Rhun's elven rogue as well (who has no social skills to speak of  )
> 
> That one I'm not that worried about.  It was the dropping of Conquest Vale that made me sad -- the group had some very interesting dynamics going on....



Hi, s@squ@tch!

I think you did a great job DMing Cult of the Reptile God, please don't take my disappearance at the time as a reflection on you!

As for Bloodsworn Vale, you're right. There were some terrific characters there. It's just one of many really great games that I was fortunate enough to be a part of. Thanks for that.


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## FreeXenon (Jan 9, 2008)

Bloodsworn Roxored!


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## Malvoisin (Jan 10, 2008)

FreeXenon said:
			
		

> Bloodsworn Roxored!



You're too kind.


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## Branding Opportunity (Jan 10, 2008)

I know where you're coming from, Malvosian.  I'm on my second name as well, having started posting here as Blue Genie.  Even under Branding Opportunity I haven't been around for a long time.  I've done the cowardly thing and run away on a few games, all of which I thoroughly enjoyed.  As you've already mentioned, one of them was your Age of Worms game, which I even picked up at least eight months after dropping it and then dropped again!

All were great games that I was enjoying greatly.  The reason I quit was that I set the bar too high, and then felt guilty when I couldn't live up to my own expectations.  Disappointment would lead to self-recrimination would lead to more guilt, until I didn't even want to log in to EN World.  I would also try to GM too many games, or put way too much time into the combat map graphics or tweaking the descriptions of what a spell effect would sound, feel and look like.  Then when life would get busy or complicated everything would come falling down and I'd run away like a scared kid.

So this is for all the folks I left wondering what the heck happened:  I'm sorry, you didn't deserve it.

BrOp


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## Malvoisin (Jan 10, 2008)

Branding Opportunity said:
			
		

> I know where you're coming from, Malvosian.  I'm on my second name as well, having started posting here as Blue Genie.  Even under Branding Opportunity I haven't been around for a long time.  I've done the cowardly thing and run away on a few games, all of which I thoroughly enjoyed.  As you've already mentioned, one of them was your Age of Worms game, which I even picked up at least eight months after dropping it and then dropped again!
> 
> All were great games that I was enjoying greatly.  The reason I quit was that I set the bar too high, and then felt guilty when I couldn't live up to my own expectations.  Disappointment would lead to self-recrimination would lead to more guilt, until I didn't even want to log in to EN World.  I would also try to GM too many games, or put way too much time into the combat map graphics or tweaking the descriptions of what a spell effect would sound, feel and look like.  Then when life would get busy or complicated everything would come falling down and I'd run away like a scared kid.
> 
> ...



BrandingOpp, welcome! You were a good DM, I enjoyed lurking in your games...AoW and Greyhawk Reconquista come to mind immediately.

What you describe above sounds really similar to some of the things I've gone through as well. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that this sort of thing is the reason why a lot of players and DMs just up and vanish without a word. That doesn't make it the right thing to do by any stretch, but at least it's a reason.

In any case, I've found it liberating to step forward here and come clean. Hopefully, the same will be the case for you.


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## DEFCON 1 (Jan 10, 2008)

I think you're all missing my point.  I'm not saying that long games aren't possible... of course they are.  I'm DMing one and am playing in two right now.  But what I'm saying is that we have cultivated this mentality here at ENWorld that any game a DM puts together is _expected_ to be thousands of posts and run for years on end.  They decide they want to run a game and have set it up in their mind that it's going to be this long-term thing either by stating outright their own rules on things like prestige classes (even when their game is starting at Level 1), or choosing daunting tasks like trying to run Return To the Temple of Elemental Evil, Age of Worms, or other huge modules.

As Malvoisin himself said "I guess my eyes are often bigger than my stomach, to use a metaphor from the culinary world."  And this is true for probably 95% of every single game that gets started here.  Only 1 out of 20 games will ever actually reach probably a year of posting... it's just a fact of life here on ENWorld.  Would it be nice if every game that was started and advertised as a multiple-leveling big module campaign actually went the distance?  Of course!  But the fact is that it (mostly) DOES NOT HAPPEN.

What exactly is wrong with trying to cultivate a culture here that tells potential DMs that it's okay to run a small adventure that shouldn't probably last more than one to three months?  Because it is a much easier bite to swallow... both the players and the DMs know they only have to last a short while so that if the game isn't going well on either side, they can at least see their actual end-point and make a decision to possible stick it out to the end... and if- *IF*- that first game finishes just as the DM advertised and everyone was happy, the decision could be made THEN to continue.  And the players all get the satisfaction of knowing that they actually _finished_ at least one game they've ever played in.

But you cannot tell me that DMs advertising most of their games on ENWorld as long-term events only to see them die out within a month because the players and/or the DM flaked out is a good thing.  Because it isn't.  It sucks.  And it's all because we keep setting unrealisitic goals for ourselves and people end up feeling guilty and bolting when they cannot reach them.

So please, for the love of God and to whomever is reading this (especially players who have never DM'd a PbP game here before)... just because a few games here on ENWorld are a thousand posts long, it does not mean that your HAS to do that too.  Don't bite off more than you can chew.  Start small.  Find out if DMing is really your speed on a short adventure that is only meant to least maybe lasts a couple months.  Find out if the players you chose for your adventure are mature enough to keep posting and not disappear.  Find out if you can actual finish something you start.  And then if/when that happens... THEN decide to pull Return To Undermountain off your shelf to run for five years here.  And if you're lucky, you'll maybe reach the end of Year One before it also dies a slow, painful death.


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## kinem (Jan 10, 2008)

I have to agree that running "short" 'one-shots' (which would take 6 months anyway) should be done more often for PBP, given the problems with longer games.  That's why the last game I DM'd, Parting Gifts, was intentionally meant to be just 'a short scenario' - although I did end up trying unsucessfully to extend it.

One problem though is that the reward system in D&D is heavily geared towards experience points and magic items to be identified later - things which only would matter in a multilevel campaign.  Although, it might be more conducive to roleplaying not to rely on those.

I just want to say that this thread has made me feel a little better about all the times my own games have been abandoned by others 

For the record, I have never used any other screen names here (and usually use kinem on other boards too), nor dropped out of games without posting a withdrawal notice.


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## Scotley (Jan 10, 2008)

Wow, this thread has brought out a lot of familiar faces. It is good to hear from you again Branding Opportunity. 

DEFCON 1 does raise some valid points. A long, full fledged game pbp or not. Is not something that should be undertaken lightly. Not everyone has the time and energy to commit to make such a thing possible. This is an issue not only for DM's, but players as well. We've talked a lot about disappearing DM's, but I've seen a lot of players vanish without explaination too. I think Living ENWorld games do help to address this. I haven't had experience with them myself, but from the lurking I've done it seems to be successful. Now that I've taken on a lot of games as both a player and a DM the idea of some short duration games is pretty appealing. I've about reached my limits to do a proper job of playing and DMing the games I'm in now. It is tough to resist those recruiting threads and just say know. If more of the games I became involved with were of planned short duration it would be easier for me.


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## Rhun (Jan 10, 2008)

Scotley said:
			
		

> but I've seen a lot of players vanish without explaination too.




This is certainly true. My two Greyhawk games started with 9 players each, and I'm down to 4 in one (though I just recruited a new 5th), and 6 in the other. Most of these players disappeared without so much as a 'goodbye!'

From a DMing standpoint, though, the games seem more enjoyable and easy to run with fewer PCs. I can't imagine ever trying to run another PbP game with more than 6 players.


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## James Heard (Jan 10, 2008)

On the other hand, given the attrition of players I wonder sometimes when people start their games out with less than six. I figure out of six players, at _least _two of them will bail within a few months if the GM doesn't first.


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## Rhun (Jan 10, 2008)

James Heard said:
			
		

> On the other hand, given the attrition of players I wonder sometimes when people start their games out with less than six. I figure out of six players, at _least _two of them will bail within a few months if the GM doesn't first.





True enough. And although it may be unfair to newcomers, I at least know which players around here are completely reliable by now. Next time I start a game, they will be high on my "want" list for players.


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## Malvoisin (Jan 10, 2008)

DEFCON1 and Scotley, I'm not sure how much of a rational argument I can raise against your points. But, undeniably, I get more _excited_ when thinking about running something *BIG*, something epic, something that involves lots of character advancement, and saving the world. I'm pretty sure I'm not alone, hence the great popularity of Adventure Paths and megamodules. The idea of starting up a short-term game just doesn't get my juices flowing the same way. Now, is PbP the right medium for running such an ambitious game? I don't know, but it's all I've got available to me right now. And, I'm a lot better at DMing via PbP, as opposed to over the tabletop.

Is it smart to be soliciting interest in a new Paizo AP given my history? Maybe not. I'm sure it might all crash and burn once again. But for now, I'm having fun thinking about getting something going again! I'm excited about it, and there are at least a couple of prospective players who are also interested in giving it a shot. Hopefully there will be more...

Having fun is what it's all about for me.


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## Branding Opportunity (Jan 11, 2008)

Scotley said:
			
		

> Wow, this thread has brought out a lot of familiar faces. It is good to hear from you again Branding Opportunity.



Hi Scotley.  Glad to see so many old Reconquista faces still around.


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## DEFCON 1 (Jan 11, 2008)

Malvoisin said:
			
		

> But, undeniably, I get more _excited_ when thinking about running something *BIG*, something epic, something that involves lots of character advancement, and saving the world.



And that's exactly the kind of mentality we need to curtail here at ENWorld.  Because big and epic _is not_ better.  Not in the least.  Because big and epic DOESN'T FINISH.  And you yourself are proof positive of that.

"Small and completed" is much, much, MUCH better than "big and abandoned".  And so long as you, Malvoisin, and others like you keep disbelieving that... and keep thinking that your game has to be this huge, multi-plotted, multi-level, end-all-and-be-all roleplaying extravaganza or else it's not worth playing... then most games here on ENWorld are going to suck.  Don't be a part of it anymore.  Learn from your past mistakes.

Those who do not follow history are doomed to repeat it, as they say.


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## Scotley (Jan 11, 2008)

Rhun said:
			
		

> From a DMing standpoint, though, the games seem more enjoyable and easy to run with fewer PCs. I can't imagine ever trying to run another PbP game with more than 6 players.




Um yeah, its tough to say the least. It takes me over an hour to process a round of intense combat. That's why I have my trusty co-DM along for the big game.


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## Bobitron (Jan 12, 2008)

Hey guys. I was very active in PbP a couple years back, but now I've pulled back to only one game here on ENW. I'm a bit more active elsewhere on Groovy Gamers (where I'm an admin and moderator) and PbPHouse, two PbP sites with great people and sizeable communities. Groovy Gamers has probably a couple hundred active game threads.

I've played with Blue Genie and BrOp and they were both great DM's.  He came forward and shared that with his players a while back and it was much appreciated.

BrOp's comments as to why he has had trouble continuing a game rings pretty true in my mind, as well. I've run a handful of games here as DM and none have ever reached the success I envisioned. One was definitely a case of aiming too high (My Silver Flame Inquisitor Eberron game) and another due to bad planning on my part when I involved a player far too closely to the plot and they left (Bad Moon over California, my western game). But in both cases, I'm pretty sure I could have worked through it to make the games more successful if I really tried. 

My sympathies lie with others who feel the flame burns bright to start until interest...either the players or the DM's... starts to wane.

DEFCON's point is pretty valid, in my opinion. Over on Groovy Gamers, I ran the intro adventure for the updated WHRP with good success. It went great! The fact that it had a finite goal and a definite 'end' meant for a really obtainable goal. Of course, I didn't want to end it. We had some really solid players and a great game. So I decided to make a campaign of it continuing on where the story ended. It failed miserably after a few more months.

I'm running the Witchfire Trilogy now. It is the last long-form game I'll ever run. From now on I will only attempt to run short, finite adventures. Longer, more story arc-type games hold a pretty special place in my heart, but I don't think I have the right mindset to run them in PbP.

Actually, that reminds me of something I saw on another site; the concept of 'Quickie' games. They are a great way to introduce players to a new system. Just have a short plot that would be the equivalent of an evening's F2F game, usually including a mix of social interaction, combat, and whatever else you want to show off about that system. It may or may not include character creation.

That might be a great way to run a game without having to worry too much about the potential for burnout.


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## Evilhalfling (Jan 12, 2008)

Hiya Bobitron, Rhun, Scotty,

Boy I'm glad to see so many understanding players.  I have abandoned a few games myself, 
one as a player 2 that I was running, but have too much attachment to my screen name to abandon it before starting up a new game. 

I would say that two were dropped because I would get stuck either in the plot or waiting for a player  to post, and get out of the habit of checking it every day, After a while I am just too embarrassed to return to it. I am glad Eddie from halfling quest went on without me,  
he was probably my all time fav. pbp character. 

Abandoning games is also about how much other gaming I am doing. I like running games, and am the primary dm at my in-person table. Sometimes I need a break, or someone else is revved up to run a game.  Then after a month or so I get antsy, and want to try out new ideas. Thats when I start PbP games.  If the pbp game is still going on when its my turn to run the real table  I get over-burdened very quickly.  

The one game I finished felt great though, 6-7 months 3 replacement players, ending with the death of a dragon, A lot of times I had to breathe on the embers to keep that one going, but it was worth it.  I think the PCs gained one level in game and one at the end. Not particularly epic.

Edit: 
_Dragonslayers ran 11 months.  Maddgoths Castle ran 6, then another TWO months with the characters just sitting around, talking and drinking with no DM, they even ended it in character.   I had never gone back and read the end before.  frankly I'm amazed and ashamed at once. _


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## Creamsteak (Jan 12, 2008)

DEFCON 1 said:
			
		

> And that's exactly the kind of mentality we need to curtail here at ENWorld.  Because big and epic _is not_ better.  Not in the least.  Because big and epic DOESN'T FINISH.  And you yourself are proof positive of that.
> 
> "Small and completed" is much, much, MUCH better than "big and abandoned".  And so long as you, Malvoisin, and others like you keep disbelieving that... and keep thinking that your game has to be this huge, multi-plotted, multi-level, end-all-and-be-all roleplaying extravaganza or else it's not worth playing... then most games here on ENWorld are going to suck.  Don't be a part of it anymore.  Learn from your past mistakes.
> 
> Those who do not follow history are doomed to repeat it, as they say.




There's really no right and wrong here. You can't say that what one player or DM likes is better or worse than another. To raise a somewhat lame internet phrase, you're just accusing some people of having "badwrongfun." If people enjoy it, then they are welcome to do it. I see no reason to look down on another person's methods.

You're welcome to your opinion, and to play and run whatever games you want. However, I think it's not fair to expect everyone else to enjoy the same kind of "fun."


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## Jdvn1 (Jan 12, 2008)

Malvoisin said:
			
		

> And Jdvn1, Dowlee the Favored Soul got abandoned twice. I'm so sorry.



What for? I enjoyed playing her both times!   

I'm positive I've had at _least_ two of your aliases as GMs. Probably more, but the memory is a bit dusty...

No hard feelings t'all. Though, I think I may find this the funniest thread on TtT ever.


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## Scott DeWar (Jan 12, 2008)

Am I allowed to link this thread to Mortality.net? therre is a game there i am wishing to be resserected and would like a prior dm to know there are no hard feelings so it can be picked up.

thank you,
Tetsubo on Mortality.net


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## kinem (Jan 12, 2008)

Creamsteak said:
			
		

> You can't say that what one player or DM likes is better or worse than another. To raise a somewhat lame internet phrase, you're just accusing some people of having "badwrongfun." If people enjoy it, then they are welcome to do it. I see no reason to look down on another person's methods.




No, what he is saying (correctly) is that many people keep trying to have fun in a way that (as experience shows) usually does NOT WORK for the people who try it.

Your taste can't be wrong or right, but your belief that "this is worth trying because it has a NON-negligable PROBABILITY of working" can certainly be dead wrong.


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## Malvoisin (Jan 12, 2008)

Scott DeWar said:
			
		

> Am I allowed to link this thread to Mortality.net? therre is a game there i am wishing to be resserected and would like a prior dm to know there are no hard feelings so it can be picked up.
> 
> thank you,
> Tetsubo on Mortality.net



It's fine as far as I'm concerned!


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## Malvoisin (Jan 12, 2008)

Let me ask this question...

If a game you play or DM is fun for you, but then for some reason it ends earlier than you hoped...does that nullify the fun you had while it lasted?

Obviously, I've never had the good fortune to bring a game to a desired conclusion. Some games I've started up never really got off the ground...but some lasted quite a while. Regardless, I had fun running most of them while they lasted. I think there are plenty of people who have already stated on this thread that they had fun playing in those games. If that's the case, why is it a bad thing for this community? Sure, I can see being disappointed that the game ended earlier than hoped (and certainly, the _way_ in which the games ended, usually, wasn't right...hence the existence of this thread in the first place). But does that undo the enjoyment gained from participating while the game lasted? I think different folks would answer that question in different ways...but for me the answer is 'no!' I don't regret my ambition in trying to run the games I did...only the way in which I failed to own up to the fact that they had to end.


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## Rhun (Jan 12, 2008)

Malvoisin said:
			
		

> Let me ask this question...
> 
> If a game you play or DM is fun for you, but then for some reason it ends earlier than you hoped...does that nullify the fun you had while it lasted?




No, absolutely not...it never nullifies the fun that was had. It is more of a disappointment that the fun won't continue.

Take your Savage Tide game as an example, Mal...that was a ton of fun. The players all had a great rapport and worked well together, and you were a great DM. I will fondly recall all of their adventures, including the two or three times that Anar found himself unconscious from the ravenous zombies chomping him down. 

I will always remember the fun that we had there. It is just sad to know that the fun won't continue.

Hopefully that answer makes sense.


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## Creamsteak (Jan 12, 2008)

kinem said:
			
		

> No, what he is saying (correctly) is that many people keep trying to have fun in a way that (as experience shows) usually does NOT WORK for the people who try it.
> 
> Your taste can't be wrong or right, but your belief that "this is worth trying because it has a NON-negligable PROBABILITY of working" can certainly be dead wrong.




I think the common sense here is, "If the DM and the Players think it is worth trying, it becomes worth trying." That's as far as it really ever needs to go.


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## James Heard (Jan 12, 2008)

It's oysters. No matter how gross and wrong it might seem to some people, someone else is going to treat it like a luxury item to consumed at all cost. People have different tastes and expectations.


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## kinem (Jan 13, 2008)

Malvoisin said:
			
		

> If a game you play or DM is fun for you, but then for some reason it ends earlier than you hoped...does that nullify the fun you had while it lasted?




First, I want to point out that past experiences can not be 'nullified' but they can be counterbalanced.

Depending on how a game ends - especially if it peters out and then people start to abandon it without saying anything - the game could cause negative experiences as well as fun.

Frustration at the uncertainty can be bad, because you _never really know_ if a person is just being a slow poster or has abandoned the game.  Seeing someone who has abandoned your game still playing in another game can create feelings of betrayal (since you know it's not just a case of real life busyness), especially if you thought you had a good rapport going on.  If the game drags on half-dead as some players abandon it or slow down, you still have to check it and it prevents you from joining other games unless you foolishly don't care if you overextend.  If you get too frustrated, you might abandon PBP games altogether.

If all this can be avoided by choosing shorter modules to begin with, why not try that?

Creamsteak - the players and DM may _not be well informed_ about the odds.

All that said, if you think the game could be really good, go ahead and play it!  The point is that more short games should be tried by more people; of course there is still room for longer adventure paths, but that should be the exception.

To put it bluntly, I am trying to make a point, and admitting the exceptions to that point, while more accurate, is not so conducive to persuading people that my point is basically correct.  One reason is that people have a tendancy to say "If what I have been wanting is _possible at all_ - then that's the only thing that matters!  It might as well be a certainty to happen!  Forget the idea of other options that may be more practical!"


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