# Seriously considering Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay (2nd edition)



## Chainsaw Mage

Going through some RPG soul-searching in light of the death of Dungeon/Dragon and other "sky is falling" stuff going on lately.  I've decided to take a look at the mysterious Warhammer Fantasy RPG in its current incarnation, the 2nd edition released in 2005.

Does anyone here play this? Anyone know anything about it? I've checked out the homepage for Black Industries (are they connected to Games Workshop?) here:
http://www.blackindustries.com/?template=WH

And also the Green Ronin page here:

http://www.greenronin.com/warhammer_fantasy_roleplay/wfrp.php

[BTW, what's the story with the Black Industries/Green Ronin thing? Which company actually makes Warhammer FRPG? And how does this relate to Games Workshop?]

Anyway, tell me everything you can about this game.  Begin.


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## whumfleet

Warhammer is a great game. I played it in it's original version and I own most of the current products. Good mechanics and pretty straight forward.


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## Ourph

Chainsaw Mage said:
			
		

> oes anyone here play this? Anyone know anything about it? I've checked out the homepage for Black Industries (are they connected to Games Workshop?) here:
> http://www.blackindustries.com/?template=WH
> 
> And also the Green Ronin page here:
> 
> http://www.greenronin.com/warhammer_fantasy_roleplay/wfrp.php




I've switched almost all of my gaming activity to WFRP 2e and I really like it.  The system is innovative but still close enough to d20 that someone coming from D&D shouldn't have any problem picking up the rules fairly quickly.  Combat is full of options without being overly complex.  The setting is superb and provides lots of obvious avenues for adventures.  I would highly recommend the game.



> [BTW, what's the story with the Black Industries/Green Ronin thing? Which company actually makes Warhammer FRPG? And how does this relate to Games Workshop?]
> 
> Anyway, tell me everything you can about this game.  Begin.




Chris Pramas and Green Ronin worked with Black Industries to create the core game.  As far as I can tell, that was where Green Ronin's involvement ended.  Black Industries is a separate entity that licenses the right to produce material for WFRP from Games Workshop.

I WISH Chris and Green Ronin were more involved with the ongoing development of the WFRP line.  The core book is excellent (more typos than I would like, but still, on the whole, excellent).  Subsequent releases have been disappointing, both in the quality of their editing and the quality of their content.  IMO, most of the supplements are about 20% "GREAT STUFF!", 30% "Eh, this is OK", and 50% "Ugh!  My 10 year old nephew writes stuff that's better than this (and with fewer spelling errors)".  The notable exception so far has been the Old World Bestiary, which I highly recommend.

I love the game and still buy Black Industries supplements that I think will interest me or give me useful tools for my game, but I refuse to pay the full cover price for anything they print because IMO it's simply not worth it.  I buy stuff used or at a heavy discount if I buy at all.  If typos and contradictory fluff within the same chapter of a book don't bother you, then this won't be an issue.

I would definitely encourage you to check out the core book though.  It's got everything you need to run a WFRP game in one book (with Old World Bestiary, you've easily got enough to run many, many campaigns) so the initial investment to try it out is quite low.


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## rgard

Chainsaw Mage said:
			
		

> Going through some RPG soul-searching in light of the death of Dungeon/Dragon and other "sky is falling" stuff going on lately.  I've decided to take a look at the mysterious Warhammer Fantasy RPG in its current incarnation, the 2nd edition released in 2005.
> 
> Does anyone here play this? Anyone know anything about it? I've checked out the homepage for Black Industries (are they connected to Games Workshop?) here:
> http://www.blackindustries.com/?template=WH
> 
> And also the Green Ronin page here:
> 
> http://www.greenronin.com/warhammer_fantasy_roleplay/wfrp.php
> 
> [BTW, what's the story with the Black Industries/Green Ronin thing? Which company actually makes Warhammer FRPG? And how does this relate to Games Workshop?]
> 
> Anyway, tell me everything you can about this game.  Begin.




Some friends of mine play it occasionally.  They like it.  From what they've said the combat system sounds very lethal; lots of pc death, but they enjoy playing it.

I don't think that I've heard anything bad about the system.


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## scourger

It's fun, but it gave out for our group.  I ran the adventure _Karak Azgal_ about 3 months last year.  I changed the combat system a little.  I made the unimportant bad guys have zero wounds and subject to immediate critical hits.  It made the heroes more powerful, but there is still a lot of dice rolling in combat due to dodge & parry.  It is interesting in that it uses all d10s.  The game has a lot of flavor, too.  Unltimately, it just wasn't for us, I guess.


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## Professor Phobos

It's like Terry Pratchett writing the 30 Years War, only darker.

Hmm. It's the game where you start out thinking you're playing D&D, only to discover you are in fact playing Call of Cthulhu.


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## Dr. Prunesquallor

Professor Phobos said:
			
		

> It's the game where you start out thinking you're playing D&D, only to discover you are in fact playing Call of Cthulhu.



Seconded. Especially in the first edition, where setting equivalents to Balors, Pit Fiends, etc., were more plot devices for the DM than monsters. Second edition WFRP has increased PC power somewhat, but PCs will almost always be small fish in big ponds.

Also, if D&D alignment is black and white, WFRP is mostly grey with smears of black.


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## frankthedm

The host and his best friend in my group expressed concerns on how deadly arrow fire seemed to be.


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## the Jester

WFRP is great! I play in omrob's campaign, which is amazingly fun, amazingly dark and totally gripping. I love the characters, the level of randomness, and the ease of learning the (at least basic) system.

Add me to the "you think it's dnd but discover it's CoC" crowd, too.


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## Professor Phobos

frankthedm said:
			
		

> The host and his best friend in my group expressed concerns on how deadly arrow fire seemed to be.




If someone is shooting arrows at you, you should run and hide under something.

Actually that's probably a good plan for most threats in the WFRP world.


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## coyote6

Yeah, it's a neat game. 

I ran a one-shot, and my group's reaction was mixed. It was fun, but I think the starting PCs felt a little too incompetent for my tastes. if I ran it regularly, I'd probably give the PCs a few more advancements to start.

(Actually, I'd probably use the world & everything, and run it in GURPS.  )


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## Repentant Lurker

A superb game, grim and gritty all the way. Being caught dead to rights by a watchman with a loaded crossbow really means something. I highly recommend giving it a try ( of course I could be biased as we have a truly excellent GM in Psimancer )


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## WayneLigon

I've played it a little bit; nothing beats it for ease of character creation and 'leveling', though your low chance to do pretty much everything in some careers can get really, really frustrating in a very short time.


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## pawsplay

First edition rocked hard, and 2e looks like a general refinement.

Nitpics: I like Fmir, and I will miss the Jabberwock.


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## Gothmog

My group and I love WHFRP2- its replaced D&D for our fantasy gaming needs.  I've been running a campaign using WHFRP2 for almost 2 years now.  The system is simple and intuitive (meaning almost no referring to rulebooks during the game), provides plenty of options for character development, and is a breeze to prep for.  My group were pretty die-hard D&Ders, but after trying WHFRP2, we've been playing it and haven't looked back.  Some strengths of the system:

1.  Character creation is FAST and easy, while still being detailed.  Characters have very different skills sets and abilities, and they start more competent than a beginning D&D character.

2.  Characters don't "level" as quick, and don't become demigods after gaining a lot of experience.  A heavily armored warrior facing 5 or 6 weak adversaries is still in a LOT of danger of being hit, and if one or two of them get lucky shots  (usually involving Ulric's Fury- expoding 10s on damage dice), that character can go down.

3.  Combat is lethal, brutal, and short.  Wading into a horde of enemies is suicide, as is charging a battery of archers across open ground.  WHFRP2 encourages smart fighting- teaming up, using cover, ambushes, etc- "heroic" characters are often dead characters.

4.  Morality in WHFRP2 isn't black and white- its various shades of grey.  Even the most well-intentioned character has his flaws, sins, and vices.  Even Chaos, the ultimate adversary, can be viewed in positive terms or having positive results in some situations.

5.  Insanity!  Character can and will gain mental derangements as a consequence of their adventures, experiencing horrific things, and suffering critical hits.  The various insanities are rarely crippling to the character, and are darkly humorous- this is one aspect my group has particularly enjoyed.

6.  The magic system is very well done and balanced.  Not balanced so much in a spell points kind of way, but in that it requires the wizard to assess whether magic is a good idea or not at a point in time.  Magic is NOT a good solution to all problems- overusing magic can result in severe spell mishaps (called Tzeentch's Curse), mutation, and madness.  In fact, the wizard in my group has developed a phobia of loud noises, and only uses spells that are quiet or cause minimal noise (meaning he almost never uses lightning anymore!).  

7.  The WHFRP world is awesome in its depth of detail.  In addition, its familiar to most players since the cultures are loosely based on cultures of Medieval/Renniasance Europe.  The tone of the world appeals a lot to us too- its kinda like CoC, Black Adder mixed with Terry Pratchett but with darker humor, and a good mystery in its tone (meaning WHFRP2 lends itself very well to investigative types of adventures).

8.  The system is intuitive and simple.  Its a percentile based system, and the GM is encouraged to keep things flowing and not bog things down in charts and rule-checking.  When I started running WHFRP2, I checked the books maybe 4 or 5 times a session.  Now, if I check something once, its unusual.  That lets me focus on the game and the story, and the players love it.  I've also noticed my players don't try to "build" out their characters from creation like they did in D&D.  Instead they tend to grow more by their experiences, and feel more like real people.

9.  Monsters and beasts ARE scary- charging to attack them directly will often result in a messy death or gruesome injuries.  Even a bear or other large carnivore can be terrifying.  A mob of orcs on the rampage is a scary thing too- they are bigger, stronger, and tougher than humans, and toe to toe, nothing other than a dwarf or chaos warrior can usually match their tenacity and power. 

10.  Its very well supported too.  Black Industries releases one book every month or two, and most of the books have been very good IMO.  Must haves include the main rulebook, Sigmar's Heirs (Empire sourcebook), the Bestiary, Tome of Corruption (book of chaos), Realms of Sorcery (magic), and Children of the Horned Rat (Skaven).  Even the weakest books they have released- Karak Azgal and the Armory- still have a ton of useful information, and we find WHFRP2 books give us more bang for our buck than any WotC book has.   Also, the Black Industries website has over 40 FREE full-length adventures that are very well done for download, written by the developers and fans, with one or two more added per month!


Possible weaknesses of WHFRP2:

Well, for us there aren't any really.  But if you like a heroic game or lots of dungeon crawling or combat, WHFRP2 isn't the game for you.  Its dark, gritty, and deadly.  Character professions are roughly balanced in their advances and abilities, but NOT in their combat prowess- and thats a refreshing change to me.  Also, if you're looking for a CR system in WHFRP2, there isn't really one- its expected if characters run into something they can't handle, the RUN!  Finally, there aren't many magic items in the game, and getting rich off adventuring isn't likely- more likely you go insane or die.  While these are all strengths for me and my group, if you want the same themes and play out of WHFRP2 that you do out of D&D, you will be disappointed.


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## pawsplay

I've always found apt the description that characters in WFRP think they're D&D characters, but they're actually playing Call of Cthulhu. I.e. buy a sword, go off in search of adventure, end up a drooling, one-armed alcoholic. Sometimes you find magic items, but from time to time, encountering one is probably the worst thing that will ever happen to your character. 

Magic isn't a tool, and it's certainly not artillery. It's a method of problem solving for the desperate.


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## Piratecat

Another thumbs up. I love WHFRP - it deserved that gold Ennie.


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## Imperialus

Gothmog said:
			
		

> 1.  Character creation is FAST and easy, while still being detailed.  Characters have very different skills sets and abilities, and they start more competent than a beginning D&D character.




This really depends on how you create characters.  If you cherry pick your class then you can be quite powerful, rolling up a bonepicker or serf though... not so great.


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## Professor Phobos

Imperialus said:
			
		

> This really depends on how you create characters.  If you cherry pick your class then you can be quite powerful, rolling up a bonepicker or serf though... not so great.




In the old version, sure, but Bone Pickers and Serfs all have useful skills and abilities in 2nd. Maybe not in combat, but WFRP is one of those games where combat isn't expected to be a regular occurrence, but more of a terrifying failure of avoiding combat.


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## Zinoviev Letter

Coincidentally enough I was just recommending Warhammer on a different board earlier today.

For me, the setting is one of the strongest features of the game. By which I mean that many of the standard tropes are there - from tolkein species to magic to adventuring heroes to loosely pseudo-medieval history - but it's all been twisted in unexpectedly nasty ways.

Yes, the characters can, and will, fight against great evil but that evil will often win, they may well be gruesomely dismembered in the process and the "good" they are fighting for is actually a myriad of shades of grey. Yes, they can become deadly warriors, but they may have to drag themselves up from being a vermin exterminator armed with a stick and a tiny foul tempered dog to get there. Yes, there are monsters and the like, but there is also a festering corruption within human society. Yes, they can become powerful magicians, but only if they can avoid being lynched or hideously mutated along the way, not to mention the very real danger of losing their sanity and souls playing with corrupt and dangerous forces. It's also, perhaps unsurprisingly, a game which tends to feature quite a bit of gallows humour.

Another strong point is the career system. There are hundreds of careers, from rat catcher through scribe, beggar, pit fighter, witch hunter and courtier through to noble lord, all integrated into the game world. Astonishingly it manages to combine that with an ease of character generation which should be a model for RPGs. A beginner can have a complete character ready in fifteen minutes.

One point I would add in warning is that if this is your player's first move outside DnD, you may need to warn them that just becaust it looks like DnD and shares many of the same concepts doesn't mean that it plays in quite the same way. Some things can be very different and a group which isn't prepared for that may not enjoy the experience at all. There's a post from years back on these boards where someone recounted a miserable first experience playing Warhammer in the following terms:  

"I played a halfling, wanting to be a rogue. Randomly, I was a beggar. I had not one skill that was useful to an adventurer... 
My wife also played a character. She had a Dwarf, wanting to be a healer. She rolled a healer type profession, and had a 50% chance of getting each of three healing skills or spells, or something. She got none. Her only 'ability' of any note as a healer was that she owned three leeches."

Now when I read that I actually burst out laughing but it put someone off the game for life . If you've played WFRP before it probably sounds like a situation with a huge amount of potential for entertaining scrapes as two misfits struggle to achieve their dreams - for some reason the notion of the two of them running a scam pretending to be qualified physicians keeps springing to mind. If you sat down expecting to find a dungeon and start lopping the heads off monsters and without warning found yourself running the above characters you might not find it so amusing.

That's an extreme example by the way. The 2e has balanced the starting careers (a little) more and you get two rolls to choose from, or you could just pick careers if the GM allows. Starting characters are normally as competent as DnD starting characters now, maybe a little more, at least at something. But there is no denying that it's a grittier game. A more likely problem is a combination of a GM and players both approaching a situation as they are used to doing in DnD and everyone getting killed in their first combat as a result. The sort of thing I'm thinking of is a GM throwing in what was intended as a kind of warm up combat encounter but which actually includes too many opponents for a combat system this lethal. And then players making a frontal assault, not having realised that the situation is different, and quickly finding themselves on the wrong end of those entertainingly hideous critical hit tables.

I should point out here, that the fate point system does give both players and GM a bit more leeway in adapting. A fate point is a mechanic a little like the "obscure death" rule in the original Dragonlance modules. When the character falls under a hail of orc arrows he might not die. Instead he could wake up to find himself tied up in an orc camp, with the orc's trying to light a cooking fire to start roasting him...

Overall I'd thoroughly recommend it. The system is intuitive and easy to pick up. There's little or no rummaging through the books trying to find some mechanic. The world is richly detailed. The tone is highly entertaining.

By the way, if you can pick up the Enemy Within Campaign I can almost guarantee that you will love it. It's widely and correctly regarded as the one of the greatest sets of adventures ever released for any rpg. It is out of print and was for first edition anyway, but the books come up on ebay regularly. Converting from first edition would take practically zero effort. (It would be more effort to convert them for DnD but it might work if you limited the magic available and were very, very miserly with experience rewards - has anyone tried this?).


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## the Jester

Zinoviev Letter said:
			
		

> By the way, if you can pick up the Enemy Within Campaign I can almost guarantee that you will love it... It would be more effort to convert them for DnD but it might work if you limited the magic available and were very, very miserly with experience rewards - has anyone tried this?).




omrob's old 3e dnd game was set in the WFRP milieu, and I believe he was intending for us to eventually get to it... he did a conversion of the Doom Stones campaign. Unfortunately, his car was stolen with all of his gaming stuff in it, and when they recovered the car, the only thing missing was his bag of gaming material.  So we never got to finish the campaign.


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## Tharen the Damned

Ourph said:
			
		

> I WISH Chris and Green Ronin were more involved with the ongoing development of the WFRP line.  The core book is excellent (more typos than I would like, but still, on the whole, excellent).  Subsequent releases have been disappointing, both in the quality of their editing and the quality of their content.  IMO, most of the supplements are about 20% "GREAT STUFF!", 30% "Eh, this is OK", and 50% "Ugh!  My 10 year old nephew writes stuff that's better than this (and with fewer spelling errors)".  The notable exception so far has been the Old World Bestiary, which I highly recommend.




Actually Green Ronin does all the Warhammer FRP Stuff! See Green Ronin Warhammer FAQ .

And I find that Green Ronin does a remarkable Job with the 2nd Edition Products, given that they have to incorporate all the History of the Old World of all the Warhammer Tabletop Books and all the Novels and make them appelealing for Warhammer Newbees and Old Campaigners. And on top of all the "Fluff" that they have to add good "Crunch" ie. put all the Fluff into 2nd Ed. rules.


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## Jürgen Hubert

A fun, fun game - perfect for a break from D&D. Your character probably won't advance to the status of great heroes, but more likely sort of slide along. Even as they become more competent, injury and sanity will take their toll. But that's part of the charm - instead of becoming rich and famous, your bragging rights revolve around what kind of terrible situations you have survived - just like war veterans.

A common feature of the WFRP campaigns I have been involved in is that sooner or later the PCs seem to end up as fugitives from the law - even when that wasn't actually the intention from the GM. I don't know why, but it almost seems like a law of nature.

And to get into the proper mood, I can recommend the following two connected essays. They are about the 1st edition, but still valid:

How James Wallis Ruined My Character's Life

Yes I Sank Your Barge

They capture the mood of the game very well.


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## Maggan

Chainsaw Mage said:
			
		

> Does anyone here play this? Anyone know anything about it?
> 
> [BTW, what's the story with the Black Industries/Green Ronin thing? Which company actually makes Warhammer FRPG? And how does this relate to Games Workshop?]




Yes, I play it. It has replaced (GASP!) D&D as my current fantasy rpg. I love it because it lends itself to playing a combination of Call of Cthulhu and D&D, which me and my players enjoy.

The GRR/BI/GW thing is quite simple really. Games Workshop owns Black Library, which produces books for the Warhammer franchise. Black Industries is the gaming part of Black Library. Black Industries have contracted the development of the WFRP game to Green Ronin.

So the chain is GW to BL to BI to GRR and back again.   

While I love the game, I have yet to type up a lengthy explanation as to why, but check out my blog (the second link in my sig) to sample my take on the setting.

/M


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## Breakdaddy

A wonderful game! Very grim and gritty, though. It doesn't do High Fantasy as well as D&D, C&C, or True20 IMO. But damn, it does low to mid fantasy stunningly. Combats are fast and brutal, character generation is a breeze, and the rules are easy to keep track of without hitting the books (as long as you have a referee's screen for tracking crits in combat).


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## Piratecat

Zinoviev Letter said:
			
		

> Coincidentally enough I was just recommending Warhammer on a different board earlier today.



Kickass first post -- and welcome to the boards!


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## Rykion

My first response to the cancellation of _Dungeon_ and _Dragon_, was to change my planned campaign to WFRP 2nd ed.  It's a very fun game.  It does grim and gritty very well.


			
				pawsplay said:
			
		

> Nitpics: I like Fmir, and I will miss the Jabberwock.



The Jabberwock exists in 2nd ed.  It can be found in the _Tome of Corruption_.


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## Kafkonia

I do like the character creation, but even though I'm tiring of d20 I'm growing increasingly wary of picking up new systems. I may but it and see if I can adapt it to a system I'm already familiar with, GURPS or BRP might fit the feel well.


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## Chainsaw Mage

What kind of player base is there in North America? (I'm in Canada, FWIW).

I've heard it said that Warhammer FRP is popular in Britain, but almost totally under the radar here in North America (despite the wild popularity of the wargame).


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## Thomas Percy

I was playing Warhammer 1st and 2nd edition. Imho 2ed is much better when we talk about rules, and have the same interesting game world when we talk about setting. 
I'm not kind of player who feel good in dark mood for more than 1-2 game sessions, so D&D   .


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## Desdichado

Personally, I think that's a lousy reason to check the game out, and is unlikely to present it in it's best light.  Warhammer is one of those kinds of games where you think you're playing one thing, but in reality you're playing something else entirely.  In this case, because of superficial similarities, you may think you're playing D&D but just with different rules, but after a handful of combats are under your belt, you'll find out that you're actually playing Call of Cthulhu, and your characters will likely be dead, maimed, insane, diseased or otherwise hosed because you had a D&D paradigm in mind while you played it.

Check out Warhammer on it's own merits; make sure that you're ready for the massive paradigm shift that it entails, and then go for it, and I think you'll find it a great game.  If--however--you just think "it's D&D, but not really, so I can stick it to WotC" then you'll probably be disappointed with it.

EDIT:  Ah, I see the D&D/Cthulhu comparison has already been brought up.  Cheers, guys!  You're on top of things today, clearly!


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## pawsplay

The comparisons I would make with WFRP would be Dying Earth, Call of Cthulhu, Shadowrun, Swordbearer.

A moonlighting ratcatcher and a junior temple initiate trying to plant a bomb in a cult hideout is about par for the course. Even if you manage to become like a knight or something, you'll probably end up challenging another knight to a rigged bout so you can sell his armor and buy a boat. Most wizards are basically full of it, since they're fond of learning spells they can't cast safely, and probably spend a lot of time avoiding casting spells unless they absolutely have to. Or they get sucked into the abyss by a chaos demon, and that's the end of that. 

It kind of reminds me of the show Supernatural... you know, the two brothers going around putting down ghosts and slaying demons. But since they don't have financial or legal backing for their mighty quest, they subsist on credit card fraud, pool sharking, and theft, and regualrly impersonate everyone from the CDC to Homeland Security to state police.


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## Chainsaw Mage

Hobo said:
			
		

> If--however--you just think "it's D&D, but not really, so I can stick it to WotC" then you'll probably be disappointed with it.




Uh . . . I never said anything like that.  Are you perhaps projecting a bit here?   

All I said was that the cancellation of Dungeon and Dragon has me checking out other options for fantasy RPGs.  The whole purpose of this thread is to help me avoid the disappointment you refer to.


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## Olive

The main thing that DnD has and WFRP doesn’t is the high level of character customisability. We played WRFP for about a year and it’s a great game that does exactly what it tries to do, but we’ve been playing a bit of DnD again recently and some of the players have been getting into the character options stuff a lot more.

If you like the mechanics and the complexity you might find that you miss that in WFRP.

The other issue is the relative simplicity of combat. WFRP characters are pretty average people, not heroic giants, and they tend to miss a lot in combat. That means you can go several rounds of going ‘woosh’ over the enemy’s head which is a bit dull. Some more options would be cool. This does help make combat less of a focus in the game though if you’re going for that.

Finally the supplements are really expensive, probably due to it being published by a UK company who have to report profits in pounds.


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## Zinoviev Letter

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Kickass first post -- and welcome to the boards!




Cheers.



			
				Chainsaw Mage said:
			
		

> What kind of player base is there in North America? (I'm in Canada, FWIW).
> 
> I've heard it said that Warhammer FRP is popular in Britain, but almost totally under the radar here in North America (despite the wild popularity of the wargame)



.

That's an interesting question and one that's hard to give a definitive answer to, given the absence of truly reliable long term sales statistics for games.

My take on it is coloured by my experiences, back when I was regularly going to the conventions here in Ireland (from maybe about 1989-1996). Then it was a massively popular game here, behind only DnD at least until Vampire came along. The gaming scene here was vibrant but very much influenced by our larger neighbour next door. I got the general impression that WFRP 1e was one of the most popular games in Britain too, and in parts of Continental Europe, but that it was lower profile in North America. It is often said that it was the most popular RPG published outside the USA, but although it did have a following in North America that popularity was concentrated outside of it.

After it's first wave of popularity the playing base everywhere probably suffered much the same long, slow decline. It had two long periods without a publisher, punctuated by the Hogshead years (where despite the good work done by the publishers I think the decline was more slowed than reversed). In Britain (and Ireland) the game had such a large and entrenched fan base that even after all those difficulties it maintained a solid core of interest, particularly with the miniatures games ensuring that the setting became more widely known. I would guess that the smaller starting base in North America means that the decline impacted more.

As far as WFRP 2e goes, I suspect that it is already one of the top three games in Britain or Ireland again. In North America it has a much smaller pre-existing base but it has apparently established itself as the third best selling game at the moment, behind DnD and World of Darkness which would mean it's growing rapidly. It will most likely continue to grow for a number of reasons including: (a) it's an excellent game, (b) it has a publisher with the muscle to get it into game stores and, importantly, places like Barnes and Noble outlets, (c) it is being very heavily supported with supplements, (d) it has the wildly popular wargame to act as a recruiting sergeant, as well as a novel line.

All of the above, I emphasise is just guesswork extrapolating from personal experience.


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## Dr Simon

I think the reason that Woof-Rup (as we old-timers like to call it) has a large UK fan base is (a) it's British and (b) the primary UK role-playing magaizine of the time, White Dwarf was also published by Games Workshop. Over the course of the late 1980s it went from a generic RPG mag to a glorified advert/catalogue for GW, ultimately turning into the miniatures gaming mag that it is today when GW chucked all their RPG stuff in favour of the more lucrative wargames.

I used to play a lot of 1st Ed., which is nice although the Initiative system and racial bonuses meant that an elf character could sort out any sort of combat problem before anoyone else.

The Enemy Within campaign is, by far, one of the best RP campaigns ever written.  TEW is fairly straightforward but has some great RP and world-building moments, such as a French (sorry Bretonnian) card sharp and hungover coachmen, getting muddy, getting drunk, getting rained on and so forth.  Shadows over Bogenhafen is a nice Evil Cult in Small Town adventure with one of the best sewer-crawls I've seen.  Death on the Reik is a great package, weeks of adventure, sub-plots, ancient mystery and a castle full of mad people named after philosophers.  After that it goes downhill.  Power Behind the Throne can be a fun RP-based adventure but there is a feeling that all the careful investigation and alliances that the PCs need to set up in the beginning aren't really all that important by the end.  I really, really hated Something Rotten in Kislev. For one thing it is completely un-connected to the rest of the campaign and should have been marketed as a seperate product. Secondly, it completely and deliberately hoses the PCs with a '2 kewl 4 jou' NPC. The fact that is was written by the guy who created Paranoia should tell you something.  Finally, Empire in Flames was a bit of a let-down as it was far more linear and straightforward than its predecessors. I believe in the Hogshead years they were re-writing it as Empire in Chaos, but that it didn't quite materialise.


----------



## Ds Da Man

While I like the new edition, I think I liked the old edition better. I miss MPs. I miss the 4 Att Assassins. Still, 2Es rules are a bir more balanced.


----------



## Shining Dragon

Warhammer is a nice alternative to Dungeons and Dragons. It has similar tropes (elves, dwarves, halflings) but none of the epic/high magic feel.

If you're tired of counting all the magical item bonuses and keeping track of all the +1 Daggers then WFRP may be the game for you!


----------



## Shining Dragon

Ds Da Man said:
			
		

> While I like the new edition, I think I liked the old edition better. I miss MPs. I miss the 4 Att Assassins. Still, 2Es rules are a bir more balanced.




Sometimes I miss those rules too. The magic careers just seem different now.


----------



## Ds Da Man

Shining Dragon said:
			
		

> Sometimes I miss those rules too. The magic careers just seem different now.



 I changed the attacks to actions, with all charcters starting with 2 a round. I have also kept magic points. I do love Warhammer. It is just a lot easier to DM, though it is harder to not kill of PCs, fate points help that.


----------



## iron-spyder

Warhammer is an excellent rpg, while I really enjoyed the first edition, the second edition runs well, has a lot of support material, both official and unofficial and is a blast to run. As many have said, just understand that you are not playing DnD, you are playing a mixture of fantasy and horror. Foul cultists of abominable gods, creepy undead and plain everyday greed and cruelty face the players and present as many challenges as do the crazed orcs, snooty knights and weird elves that you find in other games. Pure fun.


----------



## Metus

I guess I'm obligated to post, simply to be the lone voice of criticism.

I bought Warhammer due to the excellent reviews and comments it had received; it was my first experience with Warhammer.

After buying the book along with a few supplements and the official adventure, I sold it all at half price as soon as I could.  I love RPGs, and I love finding new ones, and out of all the RPGs I've ever checked out in my entire life, this was one of the two systems that I just absolutely could not stand whatsoever.  I feel nauseous just thinking about it.

In the reviews, people would put a cinematic spin on playing a ratcatcher and fisherman or whatever.  After getting the books and reading the rules, I found it to be about as appealing as actually playing a ratcatcher or fisherman.  The class system felt very haphazard and was a bit too wacky for my tastes.  I had a hard time thinking about why classes like a knight, a peasant, a fisherman, an assassin, etc, etc, would all group together in a party.  It'd be possible, but it would break the verisimilitude for me.  It felt - to me - like the extremes of D&D that I don't like, where you have a mind flayer paladin and a warforged samurai and whatever whatever.

I also hated the stat system, the rolling system, the way magic was handled....  pretty much everything about it.  It leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

And again, I stress that this is simply my opinion, but DO know that WFRP isn't just unequivocally awesome.


----------



## Ian O'Rourke

Metus said:
			
		

> I had a hard time thinking about why classes like a knight, a peasant, a fisherman, an assassin, etc, etc, would all group together in a party.  It'd be possible, but it would break the verisimilitude for me.  It felt - to me - like the extremes of D&D that I don't like, where you have a mind flayer paladin and a warforged samurai and whatever whatever.




That can be more of it's more difficult aspects, but then you often have to think of it another way. WHFRP doesn't have classes, it has careers, in that they are jobs the player has done, or is doing. As a result, it's often best to view them this way, and instead of these things being jobs that the characters leave behind to become these 'odd adventurers' it's their jobs that get them into adventures.

So, in the first instance, a Knight, a Peasant, a Fisherman and an Assassin wouldn't be adventuring together overly as I believe two of those are Advanced Careers - so it's more likely that the fisherman and the peasant would find themselves involved in some adventure with a poor Squire or an Outlaw (going from memory on Careers). Now it's not so bad....it's conceivable some mysterious happenings might pull them in. Again, it's like Call of Cthuhlhu, the job is something you're actually doing.

Now, sometime later, maybe two of the characters are an Assassin and a Knight, but you can bet by this point the Peasant is maybe an Outlaw Leader like Robin Hood and the Fisherman will have moved on as well. At this time, and due to past connections, one or a few of their careers might pull them into adventure again.

So, yeah WHRFP isn't perfect, but the career system often works to spur on interesting adventures, and it is the careers that pull people into adventure and take things in interesting directions - it is the Call of Cthuhlhu analogy againt though, just like in that game, your job is still part of the game and the adventures happen around it.

I say this because this aspect of it through me for a while.


----------



## Frostmarrow

I started out as a charcoal burner and had my mind set on becoming a spell caster. As soon as I could change careers I went on to become a hedge wizard. My spells were somewhat limited. I remember fondly the one that made me immune to rain. We played through the flagship campaign starting with the first part in the rule book. By the end of the campaign I had advanced to witch and could actually cast useful spells but alas the campaign was ended by that time. (Basically at the equvalent of 5th level I could cast _ray of frost _ with a steep chance of being afflicted with insanity.) The powerlevel is cool in it's own way but you really feel how the world is stacked up against you. Everybody attacks spell-casters on sight and there is no magic to protect you.

WFRP is the least deadly game I've ever tried, though. As long as you keep your Fate Points in the positives you are immune to death. A sad development to a game that boasts about being grim and gritty. It is nevertheless very entertaining.

We found the insanity rules to be unwieldy and decided to chuck it. It was kind of cute to be mentally ill but in the race to save the world there simply was no time nor opportunity for seizures and sudden bouts of madness.

Now we are back with D&D a little wiser, a bit more fond of D&D, and with the firm belief that we will someday return to The Old World. Not only because it rocks but also because it is a great vacation away from D&D. 

But home is where the heart is.


----------



## iron-spyder

The careers are what you were doing before you were thrown together into an adventure, which is realistic considering the horror aspects of the game. 

    Some of the starting careers might seem a bit lame, but they do two things right off:

   1) Challenge players to work with what they have, using what skills they have for survival, pooling their resources as best they can.
   2) Reflect a more realistic world than standard classes and add flavour to the setting.

    That said, and even though a peasant can advance to witch hunter in time, I generally let players choose their starting career from a few that will fit the theme/mood of the game I am running.


----------



## Frostmarrow

iron-spyder said:
			
		

> The careers are what you were doing before you were thrown together into an adventure, which is realistic considering the horror aspects of the game.
> 
> Some of the starting careers might seem a bit lame, but they do two things right off:
> 
> 1) Challenge players to work with what they have, using what skills they have for survival, pooling their resources as best they can.
> 2) Reflect a more realistic world than standard classes and add flavour to the setting.
> 
> That said, and even though a peasant can advance to witch hunter in time, I generally let players choose their starting career from a few that will fit the theme/mood of the game I am running.




Considering that you can pay 200XP (almost not optional) as soon as you have them to get into something else I say the random roll works just fine.


----------



## Gundark

A really good game. I love the fast combats. Things are fast and smooth. I definetly recommend it. 

That said I really hate the ton of careers that they have. It seemed to be a waste of paper/space to have so many. Espcially when all those careers basically boil down to just a few basic types. 

Also the system was designed for WHF world. It would have been nice for it to be a generic so you could play in homebrews.

Other than that...solid game


----------



## iron-spyder

Frostmarrow said:
			
		

> Considering that you can pay 200XP (almost not optional) as soon as you have them to get into something else I say the random roll works just fine.




   Quite true, but I don't mind players starting out with a career that they want to play. The basic careers are fairly easy for a GM to manage, it is a diversity of advanced careers that is more challenging with all of the baggage that a character carries along their career path. There is nothing wrong with random career generation either, but since the Warhammer world is brutal enough as it is I don't mind the players starting out on a positive note. The rain will fall in their lives soon enough.


----------



## Retreater

Ok. I'll try some questions about WHFRP.

Does it require (or recommend) that you purchase the WH Battle Game miniatures?

Are there rules (in the core book or in supplements) about the warmachines - like the Screaming Bell of the Skaven, Snotling Pump Wagons, Earthshaker Cannons, etc.?

How many copies of the core book are necessary at the gaming table? Do you think 5-6 players could realistically share a book?

Generally speaking, how long in real time does a standard combat take (assuming you know the rules pretty well)?

Thanks
Retreater


----------



## the Jester

Retreater said:
			
		

> Ok. I'll try some questions about WHFRP.
> 
> Does it require (or recommend) that you purchase the WH Battle Game miniatures?
> 
> ...How many copies of the core book are necessary at the gaming table? Do you think 5-6 players could realistically share a book?
> 
> Generally speaking, how long in real time does a standard combat take (assuming you know the rules pretty well)?




No need for WHBG minis- we play just fine without them (though we do like to use minis, we mostly use dnd minis).

Our group runs 2-8 players plus the gm, and the gm and I each have the core book; it seems fine, except for if more than two players need to make pcs at once.  Even then, it isn't too bad.

The duration of a combat really depends on how big the combat is, and on how good the combatants are at fighting, but it generally seems faster than 3e dnd.


----------



## Ourph

Retreater said:
			
		

> Ok. I'll try some questions about WHFRP.
> 
> Does it require (or recommend) that you purchase the WH Battle Game miniatures?



Using miniatures makes keeping track of combat a lot easier (just like in D&D) but it's definitely possible to do without.  I can't recall any encouragement toward buying miniatures in the book (Games Workshop or otherwise).



> Are there rules (in the core book or in supplements) about the warmachines - like the Screaming Bell of the Skaven, Snotling Pump Wagons, Earthshaker Cannons, etc.?



War machines aren't covered in the core book.  There are a few passages about them in the Tome of Corruption and Children of the Horned Rat (Skaven sourcebook).  The rules assume skirmish-level combat, not mass warfare (hence, few rules for warmachines).  The Skaven book does go into some detail on smaller scale "magi-tech" in the Skaven book (Warp Pistols, etc.).



> How many copies of the core book are necessary at the gaming table? Do you think 5-6 players could realistically share a book?



For actual play, players don't really need access to a book.  Spellcasters can download spellcards from the BI website (fan created and hosted there) that give abbreviated spell descriptions and once the players are familiar with combat actions there's really no need to reference the rules.  My group of 5 (plus me, the GM, making 6) share two books for character creation.  I've made a chargen summary sheet that reproduces a few of the tables, which helps.  Sharing books makes the process take a bit longer, but it is definitely workable.



> Generally speaking, how long in real time does a standard combat take (assuming you know the rules pretty well)?



In my experience, most combats take between 10-15 minutes when the number of "monsters" is about equal to the number of PCs (i.e. 4-5 combatants on each side).  I use a modified critical table for mooks that breaks critical hits down into "WP test vs. Fear", "Automatic Fear" and "Instant Death" that helps to speed combat along (frightened combatants run away from battle).  The nice thing about WFRP is that this number stays pretty constant throughout the progression of the PCs.  IMC, the PCs are into their 3rd and 4th careers at this point (equivalent of 12th-15th level in D&D) and the fights are taking about the same amount of time as they took when the PCs were first created.  The only time a combat really stretches beyond 15 minutes is when the PCs are fighting lots and lots of weaker creatures (15-20 goblins for example).  Even with the really large and complex combats most are finished in under half an hour.


----------



## iron-spyder

Your questions were answered quite well. I would agree that miniatures are not necessary. I sometimes use a few, but usually Rackham pieces anyway because I like them better.

   I would also add that a character pack/folio for each player is more appropriate than several core books. What is handy to start/covers the basics, eases play:

  Core book, Sigmar's Heirs, GM Screen and Character Folios. The Bestiary and Realms of Sorcery would be next, especially considering the amount of spells available for free on the official Black Library forum (look in the GM section at the top for the Sticky threads, they are all of help). Also grab a .pdf called Denizens of the Empire (free) for a huge load of NPCs.


----------



## Frostmarrow

iron-spyder said:
			
		

> Your questions were answered quite well. I would agree that miniatures are not necessary. I sometimes use a few, but usually Rackham pieces anyway because I like them better.




We found that the need for minis is smaller than for D&D actually. I agree with your sentiment about Rackham's models.


----------



## shilsen

This is a really interesting thread. I'm flying back to India for the summer and am now really considering picking up the Warhammer FRP book for some in-flight reading (a little known fact - long international flights lead to significant rules-mastery).


----------



## iron-spyder

One of the main differences you will find in Warhammer is the emphasis on adventure/intrigue over the traditional DnD dungeoncrawl. I am not saying that DnD is all about dungeoncrawling, but does happen often enough. 

   In Warhammer, on the other hand, you can have exciting game sessions without any physical combat and without ever going into a dungeon (although slogging through sewers happens). 

   You are also often running from the law in Warhammer, not playing the spotless adventurer admired by the crowd, the more you find out about the secrets of the Warhammer world the more deranged and horrified the characters often become. Often the crowds you encounter have torches and pitchforks, sometimes urged on by a witch hunter.


----------



## shilsen

iron-spyder said:
			
		

> One of the main differences you will find in Warhammer is the emphasis on adventure/intrigue over the traditional DnD dungeoncrawl. I am not saying that DnD is all about dungeoncrawling, but does happen often enough.
> 
> In Warhammer, on the other hand, you can have exciting game sessions without any physical combat and without ever going into a dungeon (although slogging through sewers happens).




This fits my preferences perfectly. I've been running an Eberron game (see sig) for 2+ years, and ran another for 2 years before that, both of which essentially eliminated dungeon-crawling as a part of the game. We usually do have combat every session, but that's mainly because my players like it.



> You are also often running from the law in Warhammer, not playing the spotless adventurer admired by the crowd, the more you find out about the secrets of the Warhammer world the more deranged and horrified the characters often become. Often the crowds you encounter have torches and pitchforks, sometimes urged on by a witch hunter.




Speaking of DMing preferences, all I have to say to that is:


----------



## iron-spyder

Shilsen:
    Hopefully you will pick up the rules and get into the game. It runs smoothly, has a few d20-isms and is easy to pick up initially by players of 3.x games.

     The downside for combat heavy players is the fact that a goblin that gets in a lucky shot can drag down a knight. This is excellent for GMs and shocks players into reality fairly quickly. There are Fate Points to save them from death, but sometimes death is preferable to some of the things a devious GM can throw at players.

     Check out their forums for handy GM tools (in the GM section)

     The main site for WFRP has a plethora of goodies including many excellent, ready to play adventures.


----------



## shilsen

iron-spyder said:
			
		

> Shilsen:
> Hopefully you will pick up the rules and get into the game. It runs smoothly, has a few d20-isms and is easy to pick up initially by players of 3.x games.
> 
> The downside for combat heavy players is the fact that a goblin that gets in a lucky shot can drag down a knight. This is excellent for GMs and shocks players into reality fairly quickly. There are Fate Points to save them from death, but sometimes death is preferable to some of the things a devious GM can throw at players.
> 
> Check out their forums for handy GM tools (in the GM section)
> 
> The main site for WFRP has a plethora of goodies including many excellent, ready to play adventures.



 Thanks a lot for all the info.

The order has been placed


----------



## Mallus

Oddly enough, Shil, I was just checking Amazon for the new Star Wars Saga Edition's release date... and ended up reading all I could about WFRP ed2. I think I pretty much sold.

Now my big question is: can I use it to run CITY? Because I'll try... oh I'll try.


----------



## iron-spyder

You are most welcome, Shilsen. The downside to the new Warhammer rpg is that the adventure series, Paths of the Damned, comprised of Ashes of Middenheim, Spires of Altdorf and Forges of Nuln do leave a lot to be desired and are full of inconsistencies. However, they also consider good background information and new careers, making these definite 'maybies'. 

    Plundered Vaults is a decent collection of short adventures that are easy to work with and they do have a semi-dungeoncrawl called Karak Azgal. However, to begin with, I still suggest the adventures made by the fans on the official site and the Denizens of the Empire .pdf. 

    You will hear quite a bit about the mega-adventure, The Enemy Within (TEW), which is a campaign from the first edition of the game and as others have said, quite possibly the best rpg adventure series to date made for any rpg. There are updates and conversions aplenty and it is a constant topic of discussion on the official forums and crops up a bit on the best unofficial forum, Strike-to-Stun.


----------



## boredgremlin

I have only GMed two session now with WFRP. But its by far the best system i have ever owned and i have run everything from D&D (3 editions) to D20 games, to World of darkness, rifts, gurps, and now this. 

   The class system seems wonky at first. But one thing you have to realize is your not in your first class for very long at all. You start allready having all the skills and talents you need to move to your next career, and with at least one advance on the other stuff. 

  Plus the randomness is fun if you do it right. My game now has: 2 elven hunters, 1 elven apprentice mage, 1 human noble woman, 1 dwarf outlaw, and 1 human entertainer (storyteller). 

  Seems random.... But they are all in a small village with a bridge along a major river in the western part of the empire. The reason they came together is simple and so far it revolves around the elven apprentice mage and the storyteller. 

   The storyteller is a spy for the nearest baron who wants to usurp rule of the village and taxation rights to the bridge. 

   The elven wizard is a representative of the college of fire sent here to surrepticously investigate the rumours of an ancient temple from the humans who lived here before the empire. He is dressed as a scout and as has been pretending to be a wilderness scout and hunter to gather info and blend in more then a wizard would. 

  One of the elven hunters is just on the run from a beastman rise in the forests to the west of town and looking for somewhere to go to avoid trouble... problem is that there really isnt anywhere with whats going on in the greater world so he stayed in this town to sell the furs he has been catching while he figures out his next move. 

   The human noblewoman is a runaway from a "deceased" husband who is pretending to be a mercenary and just wanted to see the greater world. The dwarf is on the run because he slew a human border official due to a mistake and when his clan said his honor demanded he present himself for justice he got scared and ran.. In his constand roaming over the last few years he just happened to find himself on the road east of town looking to make a living in the chaos of the area. 

   The other elf is an emissary from the nearby elven community sent to get help defending the hopelessly outnumbered elves from beastmen and orc raiders. 

    How did all these people come together?? Well the apprentice mage had nailed this town down as the closest one to where he thought the temple might be. So he was using it as a base while investigating the area. 

   The entertainer was in town just gathering info and playing at the bars, she happened to walk over to the elf mage because elves are unusual and she thought he might be important, or know something important since he had been sticking around. 

   The elven hunter who was running started talking to the elf mage just because they were both rare elves in a small human town. 

    The mage meanwhile had signed on as a scout in the towns forces because it was a good cover and being a mage is a suspicous thing anyway. 

   So while they're all chatting a runner from the sherrif comes and asks the mage to come to a meeting because some farmers have gone missing. The mage brings the rest, and they head out hunting. They find out a big warparty is coming and head back to town. 

   Just then the dwarf and noblewoman head into town at near to the same time. The entertainer is doing her best to convince people on the west side of town to move across the bridge, the hunters are wandering the forest keeping track of the creatures, the dwarf volunteers himself to see to what defenses can be thrown up quickly and the mage hangs around being unobtrusive and "scouting out archery posts". 

  fast forward some RP and the entertainer convinced most people to go back to the defenses. The hunters storm in just ahead of the beasts. The noble has been hanging out on the wall and helping with the labor so she is ready to roll, and the mage has his archer post all picked out. 

   The fight goes by, there arent many combatants on either side. And after a good hard battle all are fast friends and put together as the villages "outlander corps" based on the french foreign legion. 

   Simple easy, all are freinds. Of course no one knows there is a wizard and noble in the party but me. But still, all these crazy races/classes that usually have no business being together are now a solid team verging on being freinds. Wasnt so hard was it?


----------



## Elsenrail

An elf apprentice wizard in a  humans' college? As far as I'm concerned the elves study magic by their own, with a little help of their own masters who reside in the Old World, then journey to Ulthuan and study the High Magic (something like DnD high level spells) there. In my team there is such an elf, but  he has already advanced to the journeywizard career, co he can cast effective fire spells that burn the enemies with ease (2 fireballs do the job well as my priest of Ranald has noticed).

Of course it's only a game. The DM is the god.


----------



## pawsplay

See, if D&D were at all realistic, adventurers would rapidly be suffering from major Post-Traumatic Stress disorder. I mean, even the most hardened adventurer is not going to survive having been partially digested by a giant worm, had his face burned off, or his best friend possessed by a demon without some psychological damage. Then there's the physical toll. Even assuming cure light wounds does a really dandy job, it really ain't the years, it's the mileage when it comes to slogging around in heavy armor, swinging a sword, packing your skull with mindbending spells day in and day out. And on the way to somewhere, you would constantly be picking up an annoying little cough, or malaria, or flesh eating bacteria, or whatever, and hopefully you have a cleric who can cure disease and has plenty of spell lots. After a few years, you'd be missing an arm or an eye, most of your friends and coworkers would be dead, and your family long since devoured by spiteful mind flayers or vampires. Heroes would be famous precisely because it would be such a miracle for someone to make a living as a slayer of evil, live to some level of useful experience, and successfully vanquish a mighty foe and have a relatively happy ending after that. In the face of daily peril, battles against implacable foes with few resources at your command, you would be struggling against low morale and spiritual dissolution. And that's assuming you yourself don't get transformed by the touch of pure evil.

WFRP kind of brings that experience home. 

If you don't think bored peasants and socipathic rat catchers ganging up to mug a lone orc and take his head for a reward from the local constable is funny, or that watching your Knight get ripped in half by an ogre is a "good way to go, he would have wanted it that way, if actually living to a ripe old age were not an option on the table" then it may not be the game for you. 

Evil that is really evil and will kill you, cartoon violence that kills, wrestling with trolls bringing about the predictable results, getting into trouble with the local authorities over "exploring ancient tombs" i.e. grave-robbing the rich and long dead, that's the WFRP experience for you.


----------



## Desdichado

Mallus said:
			
		

> Now my big question is: can I use it to run CITY? Because I'll try... oh I'll try.



I don't see why not.  I know our very own Rel is using it to run a dark fantasy version of _Pirates of the Caribbean_ as we speak and by all accounts, it's been a resounding success.


----------



## Elsenrail

Hobo said:
			
		

> I I know our very own Rel is using it to run a dark fantasy version of _Pirates of the Caribbean_ as we speak and by all accounts, it's been a resounding success.




In WFRP there some awesome sea careers, something DnD lacks, since I love such adventures. "The WFRP Companion" is really filled with sea/river stuff. Unfortunately, our GM loves mainland...


----------



## dragonlordofpoondari

I have a couple questions about 1st edition WFRP. Is anyone familiar with the _first _ Realms of Sorcery book written by Ken Walton? If so, is it recommended? The authors themselves admit that the magic system was both rushed and flawed; this was supposed to fix it. Does it?

Second question--in addition to the Ememy Within and the two city supplements, are there any other must-have 1st edition books you would recommend?


----------



## Ulrick

As I've said before...

D&D is like the average rock'n roll you hear on the radio hear in the US.

WFRP is Rammstein!

I love it. It is such a breath of fresh air after playing up with D&D/d20 for years. The only thing I don't like about it is that the books are somewhat pricey--but that's the way things are going these days.

Edit: Oddly enough, I can't stand Warhammer Fantasy Battles!!!


----------



## Elsenrail

It's difficult to compare both games. WFRP is low magic, grim and gritty; DnD high magic, epic and heroic. 

After playing a lot of DnD it is a breath of fresh air, indeed. And when you are bored with the Old World and realms beyond it, it's good to be back on the planes. It's a great wheel ... one year you play the first game, the next year - the second one.


----------



## pawsplay

WFRP is not "low magic." It is "mid level mages cannot level city blocks," but magic is everywhere.


----------



## Desdichado

Ulrick said:
			
		

> As I've said before...
> 
> D&D is like the average rock'n roll you hear on the radio hear in the US.
> 
> WFRP is Rammstein!



That analogy might work better if Rammstein were actually cooler than the average pop music you hear on the radio in the U.S.


----------



## dragonlordofpoondari

good thread, fellows. you all convinced me to give it a try as well.


----------



## iron-spyder

dragonlordofpoondari said:
			
		

> I have a couple questions about 1st edition WFRP. Is anyone familiar with the _first _ Realms of Sorcery book written by Ken Walton? If so, is it recommended? The authors themselves admit that the magic system was both rushed and flawed; this was supposed to fix it. Does it?
> 
> Second question--in addition to the Ememy Within and the two city supplements, are there any other must-have 1st edition books you would recommend?





     I didn't think that the first RoS book was so bad and I have both (v1 & v2)to blend together. I give wizards more petty and lesser magic than is suggested to allow mages to emulate some of the effects of other schools of magic to a lesser degree and why not? The hazards are still the same.  

     Aside from TEW, Marienburg and Middenheim, I would suggest Dwarfs: Stone and Steel, the Apocrypha Now! and Apocrypha 2: Chart of Darkness. I also am working on a modified Doomstones campaign and have the two Realm of Chaos books to compliment the new Tome of Corruption.


----------



## iron-spyder

Ulrick said:
			
		

> As I've said before...
> 
> D&D is like the average rock'n roll you hear on the radio hear in the US.
> 
> WFRP is Rammstein!
> 
> I love it. It is such a breath of fresh air after playing up with D&D/d20 for years. The only thing I don't like about it is that the books are somewhat pricey--but that's the way things are going these days.
> 
> Edit: Oddly enough, I can't stand Warhammer Fantasy Battles!!!





      I would say that DnD is like the works of Vance, Leiber, Howard and Lovecraft with a bits of Tolkien mixed in, blend well and serve warm.


     Warhammer is the Lord of the Rings read when on double-dip LSD while listening to The Mind is a Terrible Thing to Taste or Psalm 69 by Ministry. Good stuff indeed.


----------



## Dragon Vindaloo

I liked Warhammer a lot at first but then the lack of detail about the campaign world started to do my head in.  Things like the Warhammer world not having a name (or one isn't ever mentioned) and some of the intended humour is rubbish and distracting/cheesy.

The river 'waz'  :\ 

'Bol a hat', 'giants causeway' and many other things are just annoying after a while.


----------



## Mallus

Hobo said:
			
		

> I don't see why not.



Me and shilsen have been debating whether CITY is too high magic for WHFR's base set of assumptions --of course we were doing this without actually having cracked open WHFR...

CITY was conceived of a low-present-day magic, which didn't survive contact with the first group of players. It's pretty high magic now; with Meiji, Burne and Atlatl Jones (I don't think you've met him yet) at 11th level. We've been trying to figure out if that kind of player-controlled magic is important to the _feel_ of the game.



> I know our very own Rel is using it to run a dark fantasy version of _Pirates of the Caribbean_ as we speak and by all accounts, it's been a resounding success.



Cool.


----------



## Desdichado

Mallus said:
			
		

> Me and shilsen have been debating whether CITY is too high magic for WHFR's base set of assumptions --of course we were doing this without actually having cracked open WHFR...
> 
> CITY was conceived of a low-present-day magic, which didn't survive contact with the first group of players. It's pretty high magic now; with Meiji, Burne and Atlatl Jones (I don't think you've met him yet) at 11th level. We've been trying to figure out if that kind of player-controlled magic is important to the _feel_ of the game.



Well, the feel of it'll certainly change a bit.  It is a lower magic setting, and it is more grim and gritty.

I guess I didn't realize how high your PCs had become lately; from what I remembered of the story hour I thought they'd fit in pretty nicely with those mechanics.


----------



## Henry

Dragon Vindaloo said:
			
		

> 'Bol a hat', 'giants causeway' and many other things are just annoying after a while.




If there is one thing that the real world has taught me, it's not to worry about goofy place-names.


----------



## Henry

While I haven't convinced my regular players to give more than a one-shot to the "Grim World of Perilous Adventure", I love the setting, and I love what Green Ronin has done to vitalize the rules and make them very consistent while at the same time preserving the feel of the Old World. In fact, it was Rel who turned me on to the new Warhammer, after his recount of the campaign his group was running prior to his current Caribbean-themed one.


----------



## Desdichado

Dragon Vindaloo said:
			
		

> I liked Warhammer a lot at first but then the lack of detail about the campaign world started to do my head in.



?!  There's all kinds of detail.  Maybe not in the main book, but that's gotta be one of the most developed fantasy settings out there on the market.


			
				Dragon said:
			
		

> Things like the Warhammer world not having a name (or one isn't ever mentioned) and some of the intended humour is rubbish and distracting/cheesy.



Yeah, some of the little puns aren't the most exciting ever, but the world not having a name?  What's the name of our world, by the way?

Not so strange after all.


			
				Dragon said:
			
		

> The river 'waz'  :\
> 
> 'Bol a hat', 'giants causeway' and many other things are just annoying after a while.



In what way?  Those names aren't terribly unusual.  In fact, the Giant's Causeway is a real feature in our world located in Northern Ireland.


----------



## Elsenrail

I keep hearing about this Caribbean campaign. Do You use the mechanics and real world or have you placed the game in WFRP setting? (I don't know if there are any islands near Lustria).


----------



## Gold Roger

Mallus said:
			
		

> Oddly enough, Shil, I was just checking Amazon for the new Star Wars Saga Edition's release date... and ended up reading all I could about WFRP ed2. I think I pretty much sold.
> 
> Now my big question is: can I use it to run CITY? Because I'll try... oh I'll try.




I'd say CITY is currently a fair bit higher in magic (which would need it's own writeup) and you also have a fair amount of creatures and careers that you'd have to design yourself.

That's actually y only gripe with the system- It's so ingrained in the setting that it's hard to homebrew with it.

I'm not really a fan of the old world. Except for skaven of course. Everyone loves skaven.


----------



## Desdichado

Elsenrail said:
			
		

> I keep hearing about this Caribbean campaign. Do You use the mechanics and real world or have you placed the game in WFRP setting? (I don't know if there are any islands near Lustria).



Well, it's not mine but since so far I'm the only one who's mentioned it--Rel has been bouncing ideas about the campaign off me in the Circvs chatroom for months, so I feel like I know the setting more or less.

It's kinda a hybrid of the real world and the Warhammer world.  It does include the Empire and Bretonnia, although it takes place in distant colonies in the Caribbean.  The New World features guys like lizardmen and skaven making important appearances.

But the geography and much of the political landscape is actually cribbed from the real world.  Most of the action has taken place in and around or between Port Royale and Tortuga, for instance.


----------



## Mallus

Hobo said:
			
		

> I guess I didn't realize how high your PCs had become lately; from what I remembered of the story hour I thought they'd fit in pretty nicely with those mechanics.



The Story Hour's about a year behind. Burne's come a long way, baby. Which is kinda the problem...

The current plan is to play around w/WHFR over the summer while one of our players summers out-of-country.


----------



## Biohazard

Mallus said:
			
		

> The Story Hour's about a year behind. Burne's come a long way, baby. Which is kinda the problem...
> 
> The current plan is to play around w/WHFR over the summer while one of our players summers out-of-country.




How complex / detailed are the rules of Warhammer FRP? How would it compare with D&D 3.5 for complexity?


----------



## iron-spyder

Biohazard said:
			
		

> How complex / detailed are the rules of Warhammer FRP? How would it compare with D&D 3.5 for complexity?





       The rules are detailed, but not complex. With a couple of books you can get started. There is always debate about what is essential and it does depend on the characters, but at a bare minimum I would suggest:

WFRP core
Old World Bestiary
Sigmar's Heirs
Realms of Sorcery (if you have mages or a magic heavy game)
Warhammer Companion (fairly inexpensive and has a lot of useful information)

Old World Armoury is not really necessary, but handy


      3.5 is like a juggernaut of destruction with all of the rules, I switched to Warhammer, C&C and Atlantis: the Second Age to escape the overabundance of rules and options.


----------



## Elsenrail

The rules are very simple. I read the book only once and almost know them all. The book often states that the GM is the boss when there are no rules for a particular situation. 

What I like about the system is that one can create a full-stated advanced NPC in a matter of 5 minutes... or sometimes immediately in your mind, because there are no skill/level and feats/level etc and the stats are percentage.

Of course if one want more detailed rules, one can find them in supplements. "Tome of Corruption" has plenty for the Chaos-worshippers etc.


----------



## Chainsaw Mage

Damn.  You guys have sold me; I ordered the core book from amazon the other day.  I was getting pretty burned out on D&D 3.5 (you know, the whole "fifty million rules" thing).  We don't all have the free time that folks such as Merric are blessed with; as a result, I've been finding it increasingly difficult to "master" D&D 3.5 to the degree that I, as a DM, want to.

Warhammer sounds like it's right up my alley. Just the titles of some of the books make me want to run it . . . plus, with the "brand recognition" factor of the "Warhammer" name, I'm hoping recruiting players will be easy.

We'll see . . .


----------



## Elsenrail

iron-spyder said:
			
		

> I would suggest:
> 
> WFRP core
> Old World Bestiary
> Sigmar's Heirs
> Realms of Sorcery (if you have mages or a magic heavy game)
> Warhammer Companion (fairly inexpensive and has a lot of useful information)
> 
> Old World Armoury is not really necessary, but handy
> .





Companion is almost completely useless if You don't want "water-adventures".
I would suggest the corebook, Sigmar's Heir's, Realms of Sorcery (Tome of Salvation will be release for priests the following July)... and Tome of Corruption just for flavour (there are plenty of editing problems, but the book is great nevertheless... it was written by JR Schalb - the same guy who wrote Fiendish Codex II )


----------



## Henry

iron-spyder said:
			
		

> The rules are detailed, but not complex. With a couple of books you can get started. There is always debate about what is essential and it does depend on the characters, but at a bare minimum I would suggest:




In fact, I'd go so far as to suggest that just the WFRP 2nd edition Core book is all you really need to make a test run. For such a slim book, it has all you need to run a small campaign and get the feel of the world. All the other books just serve to add options and extra setting flavor, but the core had me rivetted for weeks of reading!

I think the foremost thing to warn your players about, especially if they're used to 3E, is the "grim and gritty", and that success can be a little more struggle than in D&D. They shouldn't be afraid to play their PCs with gusto, but by the same token they shouldn't be afraid to lose one, too, especially if character creation is as easy as it is to get back in.


----------



## iron-spyder

Quite right, the core book to get you started and to ensure that your players will like the game is all you really need. Not everyone will like the horror aspects of the game or the danger of combat.

   As Elsenrail elaborated upon my post: different people will suggest different books, it is an ongoing debate on the Black Industries forums. After the core book it might be handier to find a store that sells the books and thumb through to see what you need to fit your group better.

    Most people will agree that you do not need the Paths of the Damned adventure series. You are much better served by getting the core book and downloading a free adventure from the Black Industries website. Warhammer v2 has some really good detail and handy rules, but for some reason the official adventures are lacking in many ways. I bought them for the additional rules and careers, the adventures themselves are very contradictory and non-linear as to be nonsensical at times.


----------



## Ourph

I've bought quite a few of the supplements, but I would be very happy running WFRP with the core book and Old World Bestiary alone.

I'm going to go off the reservation a little just to warn anyone reading this thread and considering WFRP that, if you are looking for a "rules lite" system, WFRP may not be the way to go.  The combat rules aren't quite as complex at D&D 3.5, but they are still heavily tactical and require some level of rules mastery to run smoothly as a GM.  The one area where WFRP is really strong is in its much lower power curve.  This ties into what Elsenrail mentioned above, it's very easy to stat out NPCs (no matter what "level" they might be) quickly, which is a huge timesaver compared to D&D in my experience.  But I still wouldn't call WFRP "rules lite".


----------



## iron-spyder

The new GM Screen comes in very handy for rules/combat resolution. The first screen for v2 was pretty bad, but luckily Black Industries asked people what they wanted and the new screen is a vast improvement. I would agree that combat is not necessarily easier rules-wise, but still much simpler than tearing through a dozen books to make sure all factors have been taken into consideration. Players learn rather quickly that jumping into fights on a whim leads to ugly scars and missing limbs soon enough.


----------



## Elsenrail

Oh, I have forgotten. The Old World Bestiary is a must, indeed... However, it's not a typical monster book. The first half covers stories about monsters - different approaches (a mercenary, a scholar, the beast itself etc.). The best part of the book.


----------



## Henry

Elsenrail said:
			
		

> The first half covers stories about monsters - different approaches (a mercenary, a scholar, the beast itself etc.). The best part of the book.




Actually, may  favorite part is Albrecht Kinnear railing about there being no chaos cults at a conference, and then one quote later, a witchhunter is arresting him for being in a chaos cult at the same conference.


----------



## Rel

Hobo said:
			
		

> Well, it's not mine but since so far I'm the only one who's mentioned it--Rel has been bouncing ideas about the campaign off me in the Circvs chatroom for months, so I feel like I know the setting more or less.
> 
> It's kinda a hybrid of the real world and the Warhammer world.  It does include the Empire and Bretonnia, although it takes place in distant colonies in the Caribbean.  The New World features guys like lizardmen and skaven making important appearances.
> 
> But the geography and much of the political landscape is actually cribbed from the real world.  Most of the action has taken place in and around or between Port Royale and Tortuga, for instance.




I've been out of town for work most of this week so thanks for answering on my behalf, Hobo.

That's the basics of it:  My Old World is the Warhammer Old World.  My New World is the real world New World.  I still call South America "Lustria".  I've swapped in the Empire in the place of England and Tilea for the Dutch in terms of who holds what colonies.  I've kept Bretonia and Estalia as the French and Spanish respectively.

Right now the Empire and Estalia are at war and Bretonia is on the brink of entering the war on the side of Estalia.

I'll try and post more later tonight but it's been a lot of fun.


----------



## Elsenrail

Hmm, interesting approach. I would love if You could tell us more about this campaign, especially who are the players (races, careers), what is the plot. I'm going to be a GM this summer (our current GM will work abroad the whole holidays) and I'm thinking about a campaign on the ship's deck... and with pirates on the horizon (or the damned Triton, be it a greater demon or just another seafolk  ).


----------



## Rel

Elsenrail said:
			
		

> Hmm, interesting approach. I would love if You could tell us more about this campaign, especially who are the players (races, careers), what is the plot. I'm going to be a GM this summer (our current GM will work abroad the whole holidays) and I'm thinking about a campaign on the ship's deck... and with pirates on the horizon (or the damned Triton, be it a greater demon or just another seafolk  ).




My schedule is super busy but I really love this campaign so I'm going to procrastinate for a few more minutes...

In terms of theme, I'm shooting for something between the extremely grim and gritty feel of regular WFRP and the high adventure of the Pirates of the Caribbean movies.  I'm also trying to have it stay true to a "piratey" feel with a lot of the action taking place on the high seas.  One outgrowth of this desire was that I wanted a system to resolve ship to ship battles.  So I developed one of my own and thus far it's worked better than I could have hoped, straddling the line between realism and playability fairly well.  I can post more on that if you're interested.

We generated the PC's using a house-rule that excludes some of the more glamorous and martial careers as starting careers.  We, as a group, like playing a "zero to hero" sort of theme so no Nobles and Mercenaries for us to start with.  The roster of PC's came out thus:

Elf Ferryman
Elf Tradesman
Human Tomb Robber
Halfling Scribe
Halfling Bone Picker

The campaign opened with this sentence:  "The hot, still air around you is filled with the reek of your own vomit as you awaken in chains."  Charming, neh?

The PC's had been press ganged and thrown into the hold of a ship that was now a couple days out of Port Royal (which should have been renamed to "Port Imperial" but I dropped the ball).  From this humble beginning the PC's actually grew a grudging respect for their (female, dwarf) captain.  Under her command the PC's participated in the capture of an Estalian trade galleon and the defeat of a sloop full of Chaos Marauders before returning to Port Royal.  After an episode where a secret organization tried to blow up the Captain's Council at the Governor's mansion in Port Royal, the PC's were loaned a ship and sent to Tortuga to try and uncover the nature of this conspiracy.

While in Tortuga* the PC's met some shady, underworld figures, fought a gang of slavers, ventured into the undead-infested Northtown, found their way into the sewers and almost (but not quite) got critical information on the conspiracy they were supposed to investigate.  They made a daring escape from the harbor with rumors following them that they were rich and undercrewed, making them ripe for plunder (the second part of that rumor was correct).  But they also managed to surprise and take a slave ship that was returning from a "mysterious island" where they supposedly delivered their slaves.

Their return to Port Royal saw them having to fight off privateers, weather a nasty storm and then fight another battle (undercrewed all the while) with the Estalians off the coast of Jamaica.  They finally managed to limp into the harbor with two ships (neither of which they had originally set sail in).  By this point they had all changed careers to look like this:

Elf Ferryman -> Seaman
Elf Tradesman -> Engineer (he can now fire the ship's cannons effectively)
Human Tomb Robber -> Seaman
Halfling Scribe -> Wrecker
Halfling Bone Picker -> Fence (he handles all their trade agreements, especially the illegal ones)

They settled up with their old captain which meant that they gave her a ship to replace the one of hers they'd lost but she paid them well for the bits of information they'd managed to dig up in Tortuga.  They made a brief jaunt into the Jamaican jungles at the behest of a local wizard in order to open the Apprentice Wizard career to the Elf (ex)Ferryman/Seaman.  But along the way he met a witch in the woods and decided to become a Hedge Wizard instead.

Then they set out on their most recent adventure that has them investigating the "mysterious island" on the charts that the slavers had.  Thus far they've discovered that it appears to be inhabited by Orcs who were buying the slaves to work in a Warpstone mine.  They also know that this island is inhabited by dinosaurs and probably some large, ape-like creature**.  And that's about where we are right now.

I'm happy to answer any further questions as my schedule allows.

* I used the WFRP suppliment "Barony of the Damned" as my template for Tortuga and it worked extremely well with a bit of moving bits around.  I used almost the whole book and in some ways it forms the skeleton of all kinds of plots in my campaign.

** Any resemblance between "Mysterious Island" and certain movies with islands inhabited by cannibalistic natives, dinosaurs and big apes is purely intentional.


----------



## shilsen

Rel said:
			
		

> One outgrowth of this desire was that I wanted a system to resolve ship to ship battles.  So I developed one of my own and thus far it's worked better than I could have hoped, straddling the line between realism and playability fairly well.  I can post more on that if you're interested.




IF? You know, Rel, sometimes you do ask the silliest questions!



> The campaign opened with this sentence:  "The hot, still air around you is filled with the reek of your own vomit as you awaken in chains."  Charming, neh?




My personal favorite start has been "You wake up dead," but that's very close behind 



> ** Any resemblance between "Mysterious Island" and certain movies with islands inhabited by cannibalistic natives, dinosaurs and big apes is purely intentional.




 

I like it. When I steal from something (as when I ported Skull Island, complete with feral drow living outside a giant-built wall, over to a mist-shrouded island near Xen'drik in my Eberron game) I often have a large sign nearby saying, "Pilfered from ..."


----------



## Elsenrail

This seems to be a really fabulous campaign! Is there a topic here, on Enworld, where You describe the progress of the PCs. The whole idea is really well-designed... and Your players seem not to be power-players, because the elf didn't choose the apprentice wizard career. (which College does the mage in Port Royal belongs to/is he independent?) However, unfortunately (or fortunately), they don't have a spellcaster (I love spellcasting... too much*). And there are some wonderful spells in WFRP.

* My PC is only a anointed priest of Ranald... with some spells he's the luckiest memeber of the party. 


Do You plan to involve any Chaos magic (like that from Tome of Corruption)? Those spells make people scary and are a good way to maintain grim atmosphere.


----------



## Rel

Elsenrail said:
			
		

> This seems to be a really fabulous campaign! Is there a topic here, on Enworld, where You describe the progress of the PCs.




Not at present.  I've been very busy the last few months and I decided not to do a Story Hour thread on this campaign.



> The whole idea is really well-designed... and Your players seem not to be power-players, because the elf didn't choose the apprentice wizard career.




It probably helped that the witch had sex with him.   Powergaming is pretty tough in WFRP in general given the way that the careers are structured and must be completed to at least a minimal degree before moving on.  I'll also note that one of the book (Realms of Sorcery maybe?) has a progression for the Hedge Wizard to go to Witch.  It's a dangerous way to cast magic but it's very flexible because you can pick spells from the other colleges of magic (but you've gotta pay double the normal XP cost).



> (which College does the mage in Port Royal belongs to/is he independent?) However, unfortunately (or fortunately), they don't have a spellcaster (I love spellcasting... too much*). And there are some wonderful spells in WFRP.




The Wizard didn't say which college he belonged to because the PC hadn't even learned petty magic yet.  But yes, I like the whole WFRP magic system too.  As for them not having a spellcaster, it hasn't caused them much of a problem yet.  Though they have agreed that if the Elf is going to do ANY spellcasting on the ship then he MUST be in the crow's nest.  They can't afford to have him spoiling all the food within (whatever the radius is) on board the ship if he rolls a Tzeench's curse!



> Do You plan to involve any Chaos magic (like that from Tome of Corruption)? Those spells make people scary and are a good way to maintain grim atmosphere.




Honestly I haven't given it much thought.  One of the hallmarks of this campaign is that I'm never really planning more than one session in advance.  When the PC's can weigh anchor and sail wherever they like it's best to keep your options open.  In any event, there are a ton of plot hooks left dangling right now so we'll have to see what they bit on next.


----------



## Ulrick

Hobo said:
			
		

> That analogy might work better if Rammstein were actually cooler than the average pop music you hear on the radio in the U.S.




I think Rammstein is cooler than the average pop music I hear on the radio. So that analogy works fine!


----------



## Karl Green

pawsplay said:
			
		

> First edition rocked hard, and 2e looks like a general refinement.
> 
> Nitpics: I like Fmir, and I will miss the Jabberwock.




Can't help you with the Fmir but the Jabberwocks are in one of the supplements (can't remember which one right now, but I was just looking at them this last weekend)

Anyway I LOVE Warhammer (1st and 2nd but I really like 2nd rules soooo much more then 1st). YES, you suck when you first start out (and for a long time after that) but the charm comes from knowing that AND the fact that everyone sucks just as much, if not more, then you do 

I run a game right now and we are having a great time. The players are all in their 2nd careers now and just starting to come into their own a bit and can do a few things pretty well and they are getting a bit cooky... and then they ran into some goblins and two of them almost died! Great fun


----------



## Karl Green

Henry said:
			
		

> Actually, may  favorite part is Albrecht Kinnear railing about there being no chaos cults at a conference, and then one quote later, a witchhunter is arresting him for being in a chaos cult at the same conference.




Those are GREAT  and I really like how the Bestiary is written out, with the fluff in front for the characters to read and the stats in back for the GM


----------



## s.j. bagley

i have fond memories of the first edition, and this thread has pretty much convinced me to get the new edition.


----------



## Renshai

I switched over to running Warhammer Fantasy a few months ago and have not looked back. After years of playing D&D I found the change in pace refreshing. It is just a complete different type of game than D&D, in that way it was exactly what I was looking for. 

My group found that the rules were very easy to learn. They love that they can't really plan their characters out for levels to come. They might look at future careers, but they realize that the direction of the campaign will determine the Careers available to them.

I'm running a campaign in Bretonnia that is called "The Messengers". Two of the players rolled up a Messenger and  Coachman, so I made the campaign into a very serialistic campaign where they had a new message or delivery every session that ultimately leads into an adventure of some kind. 

So far, it has been fantastic. While the combat is tough, I've yet to have any deaths. Just some insanity and lucky rolls. They've defeated ghostly knights, a mad necromancer and more without a character dying. I know that this is a rarity in Warhammer, and I keep waiting for the first character death to shock them back to reality.

Perhaps the Chaos Cultists they face this weekend will do just that.   

In other words, I highly recommend.


----------



## boredgremlin

Elsenrail said:
			
		

> An elf apprentice wizard in a  humans' college? As far as I'm concerned the elves study magic by their own, with a little help of their own masters who reside in the Old World, then journey to Ulthuan and study the High Magic (something like DnD high level spells) there. In my team there is such an elf, but  he has already advanced to the journeywizard career, co he can cast effective fire spells that burn the enemies with ease (2 fireballs do the job well as my priest of Ranald has noticed).
> 
> Of course it's only a game. The DM is the god.




yeah i know its unusual but the elfs player wanted it. We worked it out that there is some sort of hidden agenda thats gonna come up later on (when i am short of adventure ideas.) His player is really a fan of intrigue and rp. I really didnt see any reason not to accomadate him.


----------



## Ds Da Man

I have actually converted AoW to WFRPG, and have been having a blast. In 3E, my players just bowled into everything. Now, they study all possible options before charging in. It is great. Warhammer just takes so much less time to prep for. I don't have too know forty-thousand feats. Combat (while still favoring the PCs quite a bit), can get ugly with a crit. Thats the toss up, and the players know it. (The badass dwarven pitfighter (WFRPG 1e) ran into a the temple in Dourstones Mines, and got critted and dropped in one round by the x-bow weilding zombies!)
 It has  been great, and as such, will probably be awhile before we get back to D&D.


----------



## Jody Macgregor

Professor Phobos said:
			
		

> It's like Terry Pratchett writing the 30 Years War, only darker.



That's Ken Hite you're quoting, and it's very true.



> Hmm. It's the game where you start out thinking you're playing D&D, only to discover you are in fact playing Call of Cthulhu.



That's me you're quoting, and it's just as true. Since I was about to post that anyway, I forgive you.


----------



## Hand of Evil

It is the game that made my players start thinking before actions.  They have a lot of fun and enjoy sessions.  

WFRP core, Old World Bestiary, Warhammer Companion, & Sigmar's Heirs
are the key books to me, followed by Skaven book, Realms of Sorcery & Old World Armoury.  Border Kingdoms is interesting and I hope to be picking up the Vampire book this weekend. 

D&D is a clean fantasy for the most part, while death and wounds are there, death does not hold fear to the players.  WFRP is a darker game, you just don't worry about death but also taxes.  An orc in warhammer is going to kick you butt for a hell of a long time, it is 50/50 on who may win, that is a single green skin.  Oh, sickness and illness are nasty and common in WFRP.   

I have seen where people have issues with careers but that is minor, you can get around it just by having advances but there is no fun in that.     I also have my players tell me how they get together, I don't tell them, I just start the game.


----------



## Elsenrail

I like what Black Industries are doing to support the game. The new Marienburg section on the website (I only caught a glimpse) is really interesting. 

I don't have the Vampire's book, but I have seen the previews... These Vampire Lord (good art too!) career seems to be extremely powerful... fortunately, there are only a few of those undead kin who hold such power.

Rel -> if something happens in Your campiagn, write a post!


----------



## Rel

As promised, here is the stuff for my ship to ship battles.  There's a general rules document as well as a ship "character sheet".  There is also a worksheet that has three pages with crit charts, general guidelines on crew requirements and a "crew allocation" sheet.  That last bit is something that I thought would be critical in combats but we haven't used it all that much.


----------



## Rel

Rel said:
			
		

> As promised, here is the stuff for my ship to ship battles.  There's a general rules document as well as a ship "character sheet".  There is also a worksheet that has three pages with crit charts, general guidelines on crew requirements and a "crew allocation" sheet.  That last bit is something that I thought would be critical in combats but we haven't used it all that much.




I've also noticed that it helps if you, ya know, attach the files.


----------



## Plane Sailing

Rel said:
			
		

> I've also noticed that it helps if you, ya know, attach the files.




I'd just like to point out that it is Rel's consummate professionalism and expertise that convinced us to enlist him as a moderator


----------



## JRR_Talking

Coincidentally i play my first WHFRP game next week for the first time in about 19 years (i used to play with the GW developers / employees when i lived down the road in nottingham).

My memory is that i didnt enjoy it very much and i cant recall why (well not much). I played loads of different rpg games and its something i never had on my 'i really wanna return to that game list'

I have the character generation summary and it looks way to random to me. 
Also i always despised the green orc idea and everything being way too spikey and green and cartoony, or orangey if u r a dwarf.
Mechanically i cant recall much, but i didnt really like the flavour.
It looks like you roll a defence/parry/dodge or somesuch and i see no problem with a game having passive defences that cut out an unneccesary
I also dislike fate point/action point etc ideas. they always read to me as 'the mechanic has too much chance for flukey rolls that have very bad affects so ill add this to add a bit of balance'.
I played a mage last time and got fairly decent 'battle magic' so i figure i must have played it a bit as progress i believe is slow. I figured we played on of the early 'iconic' campaigns.

I see above people say it is simple as there arent 40,000 feats to learn. If it was a big commerical goer, believe me there would be a rapid output of splatbooks.

Guess ill see how it goes next wednesday

John


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## iron-spyder

JRR_Talking said:
			
		

> Coincidentally i play my first WHFRP game next week for the first time in about 19 years (i used to play with the GW developers / employees when i lived down the road in nottingham).
> 
> My memory is that i didnt enjoy it very much and i cant recall why (well not much). I played loads of different rpg games and its something i never had on my 'i really wanna return to that game list'
> 
> I have the character generation summary and it looks way to random to me.
> Also i always despised the green orc idea and everything being way too spikey and green and cartoony, or orangey if u r a dwarf.
> Mechanically i cant recall much, but i didnt really like the flavour.
> It looks like you roll a defence/parry/dodge or somesuch and i see no problem with a game having passive defences that cut out an unneccesary
> I also dislike fate point/action point etc ideas. they always read to me as 'the mechanic has too much chance for flukey rolls that have very bad affects so ill add this to add a bit of balance'.
> I played a mage last time and got fairly decent 'battle magic' so i figure i must have played it a bit as progress i believe is slow. I figured we played on of the early 'iconic' campaigns.
> 
> I see above people say it is simple as there arent 40,000 feats to learn. If it was a big commerical goer, believe me there would be a rapid output of splatbooks.
> 
> Guess ill see how it goes next wednesday
> 
> John





   You will notice some changes and some elements that have remained the same. The over-the-top cartoonishness of the first edition is pretty much a thing of the past-the imagery is now more grim than it used to be. I don't make players roll randomly for careers because I enjoy running a themed game (gang of thieves/cutthroats, band of mages on the run, mercenaries for hire [which means a group of assorted fighter types], etc) over a randomly generated smorgasbord, although there is nothing wrong with that either.

     There are still Fate Points, but the game can be so brutal that they get used up quickly, not just in combat situations, which is nice.    However you will see that there are no more alignments, it is just the world and the horrors of Chaos. 

      Black Industries have really outdone themselves as a game company in a couple of different areas. Firstly by providing excellent online material (obviously not possible in the late 80's) and secondly, they ask the consumers what they want and they listen. When the second edition came out there were two products, one for players and one for GMs, that met with more than a few complaints and suggestions. The folks at BI took the information and produced two more products, one for players and one for GMs, that really shine and have outdone the previous offerings. 

       I am not going to say that Warhammer is the game for you, it is still brutal, there are elements of horror and it is not like playing DnD;  the knights you encounter can be just as bloodthirsty as the orcs that you will run into, and those orcs can serve your head to you on a platter. I hope you like the new edition and it is good that you are giving it another try.


----------



## boredgremlin

warhammer is not like D&D, its brutal, dark and cold,  and players will die. or thier characters will (i dont account for LARP nuts) its a great change of pace though for people wanting  darker fantasy.


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## JRR_Talking

Hmm.

still seems v old fashioned to roll up random stats, get a charcater you may not quite like only to have it die quick / be fated to die cos chaos 'wins'. It does sound like fantasy CoC. i didnt like that either, but that was probably not keen on 20's era USA. Not keen on 'fighting the coming tide for a while, but in the end its hopeless' style of genres.

Dont get me wrong, i currently run a victorian campaign set in 1865 'real' world, not fantasy or tentacled horros, bits spiritualism and mesmerism. It is grim n dirty n smelly but run with as sense of 'hope'. I converted SPI dragonquest as my rules set and that can be fairly lethal.

D&D is very lethal too,. dont know why people think it isnt. Had big discussion on this on a UK rpg forum and chance of dying as starter D&D character is higher than 'chaosium-runequesty stuff'. I have just started playing in someones elses GURPS campaign too, that does seem  lethal.

We also all co-GM a low magic D&D game as well. I dont like D&D once you hit 9th or so either. 

and do bits of Liv Gre, that is 'ok', 'good' sometimes.

It may be another game system to many to squeeze in!!

Or im too picky n grouchy. I get to play RPG's twice a week while balancing the real world, so i shouldnt complain!!

i roll up n play 'Woof-Rup' in a few days so may report back.

ta for comments

John


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## Rel

Despite being advertised as super deadly, our group has found that the lethality of Warhammer is not any worse than D&D and is perhaps a bit lower.  The "extra lives" afforded by Fate Points seem to make the PC's a bit more durable.

I found that knowing I wouldn't die (by virtue of having one or more Fate Points in the bank) reduced my enjoyment of the game somewhat.  When I started my current campaign I divorced the Fate Point mechanic from Fortune Points and kept the number of Fate Points for each character secret.

Since I couldn't tie Fortune Points to Fate Points anymore, I give each character the average Fortune Points for their race each day.  I also award "Fortune Coins" (fake plastic pirate coins) when the party accomplishes something impressive.  These are identical to Fortune Points except they can be saved up and used when the PC's are in a really desperate situation.  They can also be spent to save the lives of valued NPC's (usually officers among the crew of their ship) but that's on a 3:1 ratio.

Also, since I'm running a more "swashbuckling" campaign, I let them spend Fortune Points to do "dramatic edits" where suddenly there is a rope for them to swing from or the enemy they are fighting trips on a coil of rope or steps in a bucket to facilitate things like Maneuvering and Disarming, etc.

The greater availability of Fortune Points no doubt makes the game a bit less deadly but we felt that way even before the house ruling for this campaign.  However, since I'm a RBDM, it means I don't feel so bad when I throw extremely tough challenges at them and they burn a Fate Point or two.


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## Elsenrail

Do You award them new Fate Points? In our campaign we are given one each 7-8 session - we don't have to make heroic deeds. 

Tough challanges? A SEA TROLL?


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## Rel

Elsenrail said:
			
		

> Do You award them new Fate Points? In our campaign we are given one each 7-8 session - we don't have to make heroic deeds.
> 
> Tough challanges? A SEA TROLL?




In our games you have to do something amazing to get more fate points.  Something BIG that alters the fates of many others.  In our last campaign, I think we got 2 total, and one was for saving the life of the next Emperor.


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## Elsenrail

Saving the life of the next Emperor is always easier than killing a dragon or a Greater Daemon. 

Who wanted to kill the Sigmar's heir? It seems that Your campign is really advanced. How much XP do You award for a session (on average)?


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## Rel

Elsenrail said:
			
		

> Saving the life of the next Emperor is always easier than killing a dragon or a Greater Daemon.
> 
> Who wanted to kill the Sigmar's heir? It seems that Your campign is really advanced. How much XP do You award for a session (on average)?




Well that was the prior campaign, which lasted most of a year playing weekly.  And it was near the end of the campaign.  As for who wanted to kill Sigmar's heir, at the time it was a crapload of beastmen.

As for XP we usually award 100-150 per session with the rare session getting 200.


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## Plane Sailing

Rel said:
			
		

> I found that knowing I wouldn't die (by virtue of having one or more Fate Points in the bank) reduced my enjoyment of the game somewhat.  When I started my current campaign I divorced the Fate Point mechanic from Fortune Points and kept the number of Fate Points for each character secret.




That reminds me of the old TSR 'Top Secret' - each spy (PC) had 1 point of reputation per level and 1d6 luck (which was held secretly by the DM). You could avoid death by spending a point of reputation, or risk spending a point of luck - but nobody knew exactly when their luck was going to run out!

BTW, I love the idea of using WHFRP for a 'Pirates of the Carribbean' styled game - it seems like a really cool idea.


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## Rel

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> BTW, I love the idea of using WHFRP for a 'Pirates of the Carribbean' styled game - it seems like a really cool idea.




Thanks.  I'm really enjoying running it and it really hasn't required much in the way of house ruling either to get the right feel.  The only other thing that I did by way of house rule is to let anybody take the Specialist Weapon Group - Gunpowder for 200 XP.  I like my pirates to be able to tote a brace of pistols without having to hare off into some other profession.


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## shilsen

I just got my book and started reading it. It's already looking pretty good within the first few pages. I loved the "An Important Note About Reality" bit (pg.11) where points out explicitly that the game isn't realistic and has a level of abstraction to keep things simple and the game flowing. 

Or, to quote from it, "Should someone start querying the rules, citing martial arts training, historical precedent, or even, Gods forbid, logic, the GM is fully within their rights to throw dice, food or even this book at the offender. WFRP is a game, not real life." And, as it then goes on to mention, the Ruinous Powers aren't watching you on the privy.

I'm sold!


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## Jody Macgregor

shilsen said:
			
		

> I just got my book and started reading it. It's already looking pretty good within the first few pages. I loved the "An Important Note About Reality" bit (pg.11)



That's one of my favourite parts as well. One of _many_, I should add.


----------



## boredgremlin

Rel said:
			
		

> Despite being advertised as super deadly, our group has found that the lethality of Warhammer is not any worse than D&D and is perhaps a bit lower.  The "extra lives" afforded by Fate Points seem to make the PC's a bit more durable.
> 
> I found that knowing I wouldn't die (by virtue of having one or more Fate Points in the bank) reduced my enjoyment of the game somewhat.  When I started my current campaign I divorced the Fate Point mechanic from Fortune Points and kept the number of Fate Points for each character secret.
> 
> Since I couldn't tie Fortune Points to Fate Points anymore, I give each character the average Fortune Points for their race each day.  I also award "Fortune Coins" (fake plastic pirate coins) when the party accomplishes something impressive.  These are identical to Fortune Points except they can be saved up and used when the PC's are in a really desperate situation.  They can also be spent to save the lives of valued NPC's (usually officers among the crew of their ship) but that's on a 3:1 ratio.
> 
> Also, since I'm running a more "swashbuckling" campaign, I let them spend Fortune Points to do "dramatic edits" where suddenly there is a rope for them to swing from or the enemy they are fighting trips on a coil of rope or steps in a bucket to facilitate things like Maneuvering and Disarming, etc.
> 
> The greater availability of Fortune Points no doubt makes the game a bit less deadly but we felt that way even before the house ruling for this campaign.  However, since I'm a RBDM, it means I don't feel so bad when I throw extremely tough challenges at them and they burn a Fate Point or two.






   I like that idea of keeping the fate points secret, i would have my players randomly still still and just have that be thier fortune points though, i would roll thier fate points myself. Still i think i might steal that idea for my game.


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## Jody Macgregor

I like letting the players keep track of how many Fate Points they've got as it stops them from being boringly cautious. People still play it a bit safe because they don't want to lose those shiny, precious Fate Points, but having that slight safety net frees them to take risks and indulge in that there Perilous Adventure.


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## shilsen

Jody Macgregor said:
			
		

> I like letting the players keep track of how many Fate Points they've got as it stops them from being boringly cautious. People still play it a bit safe because they don't want to lose those shiny, precious Fate Points, but having that slight safety net frees them to take risks and indulge in that there Perilous Adventure.



 If and when I get a chance to run the game, that's definitely the route I'm going. Worrying the players is easy enough in my D&D Eberron game, and that's one where I effectively took death out of the equation. From what I've seen of WFRP, it'll really be a piece of cake there, Fate Points or no Fate Points 

I rolled up two starting PCs yesterday in the space of 15 minutes for both combined, without picking equipment, and the equipment took all of 5 minutes more, mainly because I'm totally new to the system and had to leaf back and forth a bit. Statting PCs and NPCs in D&D quickly even at high levels is easy for me, but this is a whole other ball game.


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## Elsenrail

Creating an NPC is a matter of seconds... actually, since all the stats are percentage... except "hit points".


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## Maggan

Jody Macgregor said:
			
		

> I like letting the players keep track of how many Fate Points they've got as it stops them from being boringly cautious. People still play it a bit safe because they don't want to lose those shiny, precious Fate Points, but having that slight safety net frees them to take risks and indulge in that there Perilous Adventure.




One idea that hit me was to to double the Fate Points, but also let the Player roll 1D4 to see how many FP he loses when called for. 

Adds a randomness to it that prevents the players from being too sure about how they will fare.

EDIT: or just add the d4 roll. It is WFRP, after all.   

/M


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## Lord Belgar

*Warhammer Homebrew is fun, challenging, but fun.*

Warhammer, IMO, is the best Fantasy /Horror Role Playing Game that I have ever played.  I started playing the original in 1993 when I started college.  A fellow student had a longstanding game and I joined in.  Between the “Central Casting” from Task Force Games and the original rules, Warhammer had the best character creation.  The characters were fleshed out and you immediately fell in love with them. He had his own homebrew and it gave me the idea to start my own.  I have been using my own world since the summer of 1993.  My world was created with Ars Magica and Pendragon with the World of Darkness and Ravenloft in for flavor.  Something that is stressed is that there are bigger fish in the sea and you’re just a guppy and you will never be a shark unless you are smart and lucky.

The Rules are flexible enough to take the game out of the Old World and into yours.  Simple name changes on a career can make all the difference.  The division of magic doesn’t exist in my world.  You only need to buy the skill in that magic field in order to start learning the spells.  You also have to buy the spell with experience anyway.  I have yet to encounter an unbalanced Wizard.  Being a wizard in Warhammer sucks enough without having to deal with spell limitations.

Combat is quick and effective and downright scary.  My players know enough now not to go out after dark if they don’t have to.    I can’t hold that feeling with Dungeons and Dragons.  We tried it and it was a dismal failure.  D&D itself gives players instant courage.  It’s not a scary game.  You gain a few levels and you think you are on your way to godhood.  Just the rules for WFRP are enough to keep people talking rather then fighting.  I’ve had a player die from messing with the wrong barmaid.  Halfling with to many hands if you catch my drift and wammo with a frying skillet….  

Probably the biggest pain in the butt was dealing with the gods and priests.  That took a lot of work and is an ongoing project but I have put it on hold until the Tome of Salvation comes out in July.  That gives us a month to hammer out the issues.  (We are taking a WFRP break right now. We are playing a New World of Darkness chronicle right now to break it up.)  

I buy a lot of the Warhammer Products and many other games just to steal and barrow what I need and dump the rest.  I have careers scanned and pasted into an ongoing word document so we aren’t constantly pulling the books out.  I have created new playable races and careers that I have put into play.   For me the game is a work in progress.

Warhammer 2nd Edition can be used in any Homebrew... I am not gonna lie, there are challenges to overcome to make it workable for a homebrew, but it is worth it just on game’s reputation alone.


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## shilsen

Lord Belgar said:
			
		

> Something that is stressed is that there are bigger fish in the sea and you’re just a guppy and you will never be a shark unless you are smart and lucky.




That's one reason I'm looking forward to playing WHFR, as a change from the norm in my regular game. One thing I love about Eberron is the emphasis on the fact that the PCs are special, and I emphasize that in my game, so WHFR should provide an interesting variation.



> The Rules are flexible enough to take the game out of the Old World and into yours.  Simple name changes on a career can make all the difference.




So I've noticed. Mallus and I have been discussing how to use the system for his setting and so far I'm thinking it should be quite easy to do.



> Combat is quick and effective and downright scary.  My players know enough now not to go out after dark if they don’t have to.    I can’t hold that feeling with Dungeons and Dragons.  We tried it and it was a dismal failure.  D&D itself gives players instant courage.  It’s not a scary game.  You gain a few levels and you think you are on your way to godhood.




Really? Someone forgot to tell my players/PCs that. The 13th lvl PCs in my aforementioned Eberron game are the most powerful characters in Sharn, the largest metropolis on the continent. The wizard is the most powerful arcanist. The two druids are the most powerful druids in the entire nation. And a standing joke among them is that they won't go buy a newspaper without being fully buffed and accompanied by the other PCs. Because painful experience has taught them that a bunch of smart, weak opponents can make them very miserable.

Honestly, I believe that whether D&D is a scary game or gives players instant courage or not depends very highly on the capabilities of the DM. 



> Just the rules for WFRP are enough to keep people talking rather then fighting.  I’ve had a player die from messing with the wrong barmaid.  Halfling with to many hands if you catch my drift and wammo with a frying skillet….




Even without having played the game, it seems fairly obvious that a few lucky rolls can swing a fight in WHFR between opponents of vastly differing ability. And going up against multiple enemies is esp. scary, much more so than in D&D. 

But here's a question for you and anyone else who's played WHFR - have you changed anything about healing in the game, esp. with magic? A single priest with access to the Lore of Shallya can heal an entire group to full health in a minute or two with the Cure Wounds spell, with no risk at all.

That doesn't seem to fit the flavor the game puts out, so I'm thinking I'll add the caveat that one person can be healed only once with magic during or after an encounter. That restriction does exist in some places, but not with Cure Wounds.

Do you think that'll cause any problems that I'm missing?


----------



## Jody Macgregor

shilsen said:
			
		

> But here's a question for you and anyone else who's played WHFR - have you changed anything about healing in the game, esp. with magic? A single priest with access to the Lore of Shallya can heal an entire group to full health in a minute or two with the Cure Wounds spell, with no risk at all.



I haven't felt the need; I wouldn't call the chances of Insanity Points and The Wrath of the Gods no risk at all. Limiting the spell in the same way that the Heal Skill is limited, however, would certainly work.


----------



## shilsen

Jody Macgregor said:
			
		

> I haven't felt the need; I wouldn't call the chances of Insanity Points and The Wrath of the Gods no risk at all. Limiting the spell in the same way that the Heal Skill is limited, however, would certainly work.



 Unless I'm missing something, somebody rolling only one die to cast Cure Wounds (which only has a casting number of 6, so you succeed 50% of the time even with just one d10 roll) can't ever roll doubles. So there is no risk of Insanity Points or The Wrath of the Gods.


----------



## Rel

shilsen said:
			
		

> Unless I'm missing something, somebody rolling only one die to cast Cure Wounds (which only has a casting number of 6, so you succeed 50% of the time even with just one d10 roll) can't ever roll doubles. So there is no risk of Insanity Points or The Wrath of the Gods.




Except that if you roll a 1 on the casting die then you have to make a Willpower Test or gain an Insanity Point.  So usually you only heal people up if it's REALLY necessary.


----------



## Henry

You can get an insanity point just from casting a Light spell, much less any healing magics - it's even an example in the book (the poor hedge wizard...) 

Think of it this way... someone with a 50% Willpower will have a chance to get an insanity point 1 time out of every 10 castings, and WILL get an insanity point 1 time in 20 (or 1 time in 40 with fortune rerolls...)


----------



## shilsen

Rel said:
			
		

> Except that if you roll a 1 on the casting die then you have to make a Willpower Test or gain an Insanity Point.  So usually you only heal people up if it's REALLY necessary.





			
				Henry said:
			
		

> You can get an insanity point just from casting a Light spell, much less any healing magics - it's even an example in the book (the poor hedge wizard...)
> 
> Think of it this way... someone with a 50% Willpower will have a chance to get an insanity point 1 time out of every 10 castings, and WILL get an insanity point 1 time in 20 (or 1 time in 40 with fortune rerolls...)




Thanks, guys. That's what I was missing.


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## Rel

shilsen said:
			
		

> Thanks, guys. That's what I was missing.




But then there's the peer pressure.  "Who cares if you get one lousy Insanity Point!?  I could DIE if a Goblin sneezes on me!!"


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## boredgremlin

I made it even harsher in my game. Spellcasters cant use fortune points to re-roll caster checks... So if you blow it you blow it. 

  And that peer pressure only works until the first few IP points add up. After that you'll find your spell casters putting thier foot down alot more often.


----------



## Rel

boredgremlin said:
			
		

> I made it even harsher in my game. Spellcasters cant use fortune points to re-roll caster checks... So if you blow it you blow it.




We don't allow that and by RAW it's not legal.  But you can reroll a Willpower Test by the rules and we allow that.


----------



## Hand of Evil

A secret I have for magic users is the rituals, working with the players to create items and objects.  These are normally low level, have a risk to there creation, and are limited because of ritual rules.  The fun thing about this is that you can design questionable spells for the players, like Healing Stone: This ritual is perfomed under the light of a full moon and places a number of wounds into a stone, for the recovery of points.  The amount of wounds stored is of a creature killed in the ritual, note prey animals in the back of OWB.  Casting is is 2xW+1 of creature (snake has W of 5, casting number is 11).  Failure results in roll of 'blow to head' critical.  Once points are depleted, stone is worthless.

But I also recommend: http://www.blackindustries.com/pdf/wfrp_oth_herbalism.pdf


----------



## Karl Green

Also, that Priest of Shallya is an Advanced Class also... so starting characters are out of luck!

In my game, I am kind of harsh. The Heal skill only heals 1-5 (d10/2, round up) W for a lightly wounded characters, and I increased the cost of Healing poultice (to 2 GP), and finally I only allow a character to get "Healing" once a day from one source (so the Heal check can only help you once a day, but Magical Healing can also help). 

In my present game, we have one Journymen Wizard who has the Light Lore, so he can 'Heal' two points (Mag 2) and he also has the Heal skill (the ONLY one in the group to have it actually) so he can bring the group back pretty quick BUT he risks a lot (and has the Wizard marks to prove it ) and also if he ever goes down the group is really out of luck.


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## Elsenrail

You are a little too harsh. 1d10 is fine... 5 on average only. 

And the elixirs... they can do. And they aren't so rare. Simply go to a large city and buy all that are in stock before another adventure.

However, a party made of: a priest of Sigmar, a priestess of Shallya, a White Wizard... is a healing machine... and pretty effective in combat.


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## JRR_Talking

well played this for the first time in ages (see posts above) the other day

roll up for fairly easy. not 100% on how advancement works, but will sort that out as it becomes important

random stat rolling seemed ok, except party mercanery had v low WS and S.

we played the scenario in the back of the main book. Combat looks like it could get complicated but we did it ok, and it seemed no faster/slower/lethal/less lethal than D&D.

i played an apprentice wizard (with only 22 fellowship, so fun to play)
Gameworld seemed ok.

we have banned the words 'snotling, gobbos and orc boyz' and are pretending things dont look so cartoony.

cast 4 magic bolts and a few easier spells. No problems

earned 150xp!

another session next week

John


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## dragonlordofpoondari

JRR_Talking said:
			
		

> we have banned the words 'snotling, gobbos and orc boyz' and are pretending things dont look so cartoony.




ug ... you're kidding, right? those usages are actually in the main book? that sounds none too grim and gritty to me.


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## Elsenrail

If You choose to be a fire mage, then 2 fireballs will cause a problem.. to Your opponents.  It's the perfect way to get rid of an enemy spellcaster. 2 fireballs almost always do the job in one round. And I don't speak of 3 or 4 of them. Now I see why bright wizards are so valuable on the battfield. Our party's mage is like a cannon... and he often rolls the Fury rule. Madness! (he has only one Insanity Point, had the minor Tzeentch curse only once... though he casts tons of spells). He killed a river troll with one fireball spell. Now the GM has to remind him that this is not the DnD game and he is not all powerful. My priest of Ranald is a man of charm... though his crossbow can deal some damage.


----------



## Karl Green

Elsenrail said:
			
		

> You are a little too harsh. 1d10 is fine... 5 on average only.




Well note I only do that for the Heal skill... any Shallya healing would be the full 1d10. So far it has worked good for us...



			
				Elsenrail said:
			
		

> And the elixirs... they can do. And they aren't so rare. Simply go to a large city and buy all that are in stock before another adventure.




Yes very true. They also tend to carry around a lot of Healing Daughts (Heals 4 W for a lightly wounded character)  



			
				Elsenrail said:
			
		

> However, a party made of: a priest of Sigmar, a priestess of Shallya, a White Wizard... is a healing machine... and pretty effective in combat.




Super-duper true, but those are all Advanced Classes also... the Journeyman Wizard can gets his minor Healing in his Second Career, while the Priests also have a fairly mild healing in their second careers and those of Shallya don't get the big healing until their 3rd Career... it can take a while.

In the game I am running we just had our 12th game, and the group has gotten 1,800XP (I tend to give a base 150 per game just because). They are a ways off from their 3rd careers. Right now we have a Journeymen Wizard (ex-apprentice), a Dwarf Scout (ex-Hunter) and a Human Knight (ex-Squire). Everyone has burned at least 1 fate point, but only one of them is even half way close to getting Insanity...  

They started out working for some minor Merchant (looking for lost sheep, seeking stolen property, protecting her from racketeers, etc) but now that the Wizard has made Journeymen status, he has a Wizard Master who has been sending him out on missions.


----------



## Karl Green

Elsenrail said:
			
		

> My priest of Ranald is a man of charm... though his crossbow can deal some damage.




I love that a crossbow is dangerous in this game and that when one is pointed at you, you don't just laugh at the 1d8 damage dice it does (+1 extra for Point Blank if you have the feat). Don't get me wrong, I still love D&D... I am just having a darn good time with WH


----------



## Elsenrail

I have the same feeling. In DnD level 10 you laugh at 5 men with crossbows aiming at you. In WFRP you surrender*. Just like in reality.

*except for a dragon slayer/Grail Knight with max TB in full plate armor (gromril even), but such PC's are heroes of the Old World. If You have got a gromril full plate armor, magic weapon with some nice runes and You are a Grail Knigh with some fine blessings You can take a stand against a giant by yourself (with some big luck kill a greater demon). But that characters are legendary.


----------



## Jody Macgregor

dragonlordofpoondari said:
			
		

> ug ... you're kidding, right? those usages are actually in the main book? that sounds none too grim and gritty to me.




Don't laugh, I once had a PC beaten to pulp by Snotlings.

One of the strengths of _WFRP_ is that, although it is certainly grim and gritty, it's not so portentous and dark-for-dark's-sake that it doesn't have a sense of humour. There's a reason that Ken Hite quote compares it to Pratchett.


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## Henry

Jody Macgregor said:
			
		

> Don't laugh, I once had a PC beaten to pulp by Snotlings.
> 
> One of the strengths of _WFRP_ is that, although it is certainly grim and gritty, it's not so portentous and dark-for-dark's-sake that it doesn't have a sense of humour. There's a reason that Ken Hite quote compares it to Pratchett.




In a way, I like that aspect of it, because it reminds me of some of the more wild things Gary used to put in D&D way back when. Keep in mind that the Orcs and Goblins are the ones who typically use terms like "Gobbos" and "Boyz" (I've seen some Warhammer Fiction that has Dwarves using it, but I don't think that's common) and Humans most typically use "Greenskin" for all the Orcs, Goblins, etc. I do like its darker turns of humor.


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## shilsen

Henry said:
			
		

> In a way, I like that aspect of it, because it reminds me of some of the more wild things Gary used to put in D&D way back when. Keep in mind that the Orcs and Goblins are the ones who typically use terms like "Gobbos" and "Boyz" (I've seen some Warhammer Fiction that has Dwarves using it, but I don't think that's common) and Humans most typically use "Greenskin" for all the Orcs, Goblins, etc. I do like its darker turns of humor.



 That actually makes it a lot more realistic (not in a mechanical sense, where I really have no interest in realism) for me, since having some opprobrious, and often amusing, names for one's enemies is quite common operating procedure for most cultures historically. Since WHFR does seek to run fairly close to a medieval/renaissance feel, it seems quite fitting.


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## Elsenrail

What I hate (actually love) about the Greenskins... is that they are so tough. A few orks can devastate an unprepared party. Especially the iron orks from Parravon (10 damage reduction = 5 TB, 5 plate armor). Fortunately, they are not intelligent even among orks... so some spells that affect mind can be useful.

P.S. What I really like is that the wizards don't have spells like stoneskin etc. flying, protection from missles, enhanced invisibility (almost every mage knows them) etc. which make them a superpower on higher levels (they can easily wipe out a fighter of the same level). In WFRP a wizard has to remeber that - like in the movie "The Two Towers" the fighter must be quick to kill him... but if they are quick enough, he's dead.

Of course I wonder what will the High Magic Lore look like in the elves book. 2008? probably (people on their forums demanded a book about the elves and they said they would do it)


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## Hand of Evil

Jody Macgregor said:
			
		

> Don't laugh, I once had a PC beaten to pulp by Snotlings.
> 
> One of the strengths of _WFRP_ is that, although it is certainly grim and gritty, it's not so portentous and dark-for-dark's-sake that it doesn't have a sense of humour. There's a reason that Ken Hite quote compares it to Pratchett.



Agree, my players believe you have to destroy a snotling nest as soon as possible because they have been over run by them.


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## kengar

For those of you worried about Fate Points making things "easy" on the players. Read the section in the book about GM-ing their use. Just because a PC isn't _killed_, doesn't mean they get away scot-free.

Examples of adjudicating a Fate Point include anything from "The PC is knocked unconscious and out of the fight." to "His inert form is dragged off, stripped of all useful gear, bound and gagged as a prisoner and left in a cellar awaiting a horrific ritual that turn him into a mutant."

Also, players should see maybe 1 new Fate Point only after accomplishing something *major*! Like stopping a demon from destroying a city. Rescuing the peasant from beastmen doesn't get you another FP. I'd say every 6 months or year of game play might see a character getting a new FP. They'll probably never have again as many as they had at start of play.


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## Tharen the Damned

Elsenrail said:
			
		

> If You choose to be a fire mage, then 2 fireballs will cause a problem.. to Your opponents.  It's the perfect way to get rid of an enemy spellcaster. 2 fireballs almost always do the job in one round. And I don't speak of 3 or 4 of them. Now I see why bright wizards are so valuable on the battfield. Our party's mage is like a cannon... and he often rolls the Fury rule. Madness! (he has only one Insanity Point, had the minor Tzeentch curse only once... though he casts tons of spells). He killed a river troll with one fireball spell. Now the GM has to remind him that this is not the DnD game and he is not all powerful. My priest of Ranald is a man of charm... though his crossbow can deal some damage.




Your party mage is very lucky...so far!
Wait until Tzeentch sets his eye on him and he ends with major curse!
Or until some Withhunters decide to ignore that he is from a collegue and feed him his own fire.

Back in 1ed I had nice little Dwarven judical Champion who killed Black Orcs without sweat before Breakfast. Used to taunt the Gamesmaster...
Then he and his group went against the Skaven and things went downhill.
In the end even his 3 Arms and 2nd  Head (aquired on the way, thank you warpstone)couldn't help him against Clan Moulders Beasties.

See, this is warhammer. Nothing bad happend yet, but it surely will if the dice forsake your wizard player or the DM gets fed up with his monsters being burned to cinders.


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## Mark D. Mortinson

Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 1st & 2nd edition books and related items are for sale at low low price$.

If you would like a list of items with conditions and price$.  Drop me a email With 'WFRP' in the subject line, at: mccormack.cormac@yahoo.com
Thank's!

Good Gaming one and all!


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