# Converting Monsters from Polyhedron Magazine



## Shade (Nov 13, 2007)

This thread continues the idea of “cooperative conversions”, converting a series of monsters from similar sources. For this thread, we will be focusing on monsters that first appeared in Polyhedron magazine.

What I will do is first post the creature’s original stats and flavor text. Then, I will post a basic outline of the things I think it needs, and then I will give you an opportunity to suggest stats and ideas on how powers and abilities should work. Then, I will add more to it and we will continue to discuss it until I feel it’s done and time to move on to the next. As we work on these creatures, they will be posted in this thread, and after 10 conversions are complete they will be added to the Creature Catalog. You may comment on monsters already finished, of course.

For a list of creatures to choose from, see this thread. We will only be working on those creatures from magazines that appeared before the start of 3rd Edition, and that haven’t yet appeared in official WotC products, the Tome of Horrors, or the Creature Catalog. You may feel free to make suggestions, but ultimately I will pick what to convert and when. If I’m missing any monsters from this list or if any of these have appeared elsewhere already, feel free to inform me.


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## Shade (Nov 13, 2007)

Let's start this off on a light note.    

*Wilbur the pig-iron pig golem*

Int Low; AL N; AC 3; MV 9; HD 5; hp 40; THAC0 15; #At 1; Dmg 1-6; SA see below; SD see below; SZ S; ML 20; XP 750.

Wilbur was presented to Macon as a gag gift. He is the household trash disposal with legs. his original weight was 833 pounds, but it has been reduced through enchantment to 83 pounds.
This keeps him from crushing people's feet if he accidently steps on them.
In addition, Wilbur can talk.

Special Attack: Wilbur counts as a +5 magic weapon for purposes of hitting things. This allows Wilbur to eat almost anything.
Special Defenses: Wilbur is only affected by +3 or better weapons. Magical electrical attacks slow him for three rounds. Magical fire attacks repair 1 hit point of damage for each die of damage they would normally do. Wilbur is affected by rust monsters, and they scare the . . . out of him.
Wilbur is an easy-going golem who has a limitless capacity for eating trash (which he does with relish when he can get it). He is not very bright, but he can carry on conversations even if what he says does not always make sense. Some favorite topics are:
* Why he can talk. He claims he can talk so he can ask people to move out of the way while he is cleaning.
* What it would be like to be a flying pig. Wilbur really wants to learn how to fly.
* Why are people so squeamish about what they eat. Wilbur likes to eat everything and anything.

From Polyhedron #62, The Jade Monkey, by Carl Buehler.


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## freyar (Nov 13, 2007)

Hehehe.  

Immunity to Magic (Su?): Wilbur is immune to all spells and spell-like abilities that allow spell resistance, except as follows.  Electrical attacks cause him to suffer the effects of a _slow_ spell for 3 rounds if he fails his save.  Magical fire attacks repair one point of damage for each 5 points of damage they would normally cause.  Wilbur is affected as usual by extraordinary rust attacks, such as those of the rust monster, and they scare him silly.

DR 10/magic ?

Feed (Ex): Wilbur can consume a limitless amount of material, but he only does so if it is considered trash by his owner.  He enjoys this part of his job very much.


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## Shade (Nov 13, 2007)

It looks like Wilbur is just a variant iron golem.  Thus the following can be borrowed:

damage reduction x/adamantine

Immunity to Magic (Ex): An iron golem is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below.

A magical attack that deals electricity damage slows an iron golem (as the slow spell) for 3 rounds, with no saving throw.

A magical attack that deals fire damage breaks any slow effect on the golem and heals 1 point of damage for each 3 points of damage the attack would otherwise deal. If the amount of healing would cause the golem to exceed its full normal hit points, it gains any excess as temporary hit points. For example, an iron golem hit by a fireball gains back 6 hit points if the damage total is 18 points. An iron golem gets no saving throw against fire effects.

An iron golem is affected normally by rust attacks, such as that of a rust monster or a rusting grasp spell.


For the Feed ability, we should state that the trash goes to an extradimensional space or is somehow instantly destroyed.


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## freyar (Nov 14, 2007)

Let's give him an extradimensional space.  Maybe he's hooked up to whatever uses bags of devouring as mouths. 

Borrowing from the iron golem sounds good.


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## Shade (Nov 14, 2007)

Downsizing an iron golem to 5 HD and small gives us...

Small Construct
Hit Dice: 5d10+10 (37 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares)
AC: 32 (+1 size, +1 Dex, +20 natural) touch 12, flat-footed 31
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+4
Attack: Bite +9 melee (1d6+7)
Full Attack: Bite +9 melee (1d6+7)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Feed
Special Qualities: Construct traits, damage reduction x/adamantine, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to magic, low-light vision
Saves: Fort +1, Ref +2, Will +1
Abilities: Str 21, Dex 13, Con —, Int —, Wis 11, Cha 1
Skills: -
Feats: -
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary or gang (2–4)
Challenge Rating: 9 or lower
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: x
Level Adjustment: -


Note that low Int equates to 5-7, so we'll need to revise that.

Wilbur's speed of 9" translates to 30 ft.   

We should probably drop the natural armor a bit more since he's actually got better AC than a standard iron golem, and will be of signifcantly lower CR.


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## freyar (Nov 14, 2007)

Wait, I'm confused.  Isn't Wilbur's AC only 17 according to the original stat block?  

Let's give Wilbur an Int of 5.  We can probably reduce the Str a bit, also, say to 15 or so?


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## dhaga (Nov 14, 2007)

Can drop back to +5 natural to give AC 17, but that doesn't seem like much for something made of iron.  Str 21 does sound a bit much; I'm not sure that 15 isn't too low.  Str 17?

Also: Wilbur's bite counts as a magic weapon, for purposes of overcoming damage reduction.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Wilbur's speed of 9" translates to 30 ft.



Do you mean 20 ft., because that's what is in the stat block...?


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## Shade (Nov 14, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Wait, I'm confused.  Isn't Wilbur's AC only 17 according to the original stat block?
> 
> Let's give Wilbur an Int of 5.  We can probably reduce the Str a bit, also, say to 15 or so?






			
				dhaga said:
			
		

> Can drop back to +5 natural to give AC 17, but that doesn't seem like much for something made of iron.  Str 21 does sound a bit much; I'm not sure that 15 isn't too low.  Str 17?




Old AC doesn't always translate well, as it only can range from 10 to 30 by the conversion guidelines.  As Dhaga pointed out, this is made of iron after all.  Even a flesh golem has +10 natural armor.   

Str 17 sounds good.



			
				dhaga said:
			
		

> Also: Wilbur's bite counts as a magic weapon, for purposes of overcoming damage reduction.




...and adamantine.   Wilbur's all about the sundering stuff.    



			
				dhaga said:
			
		

> Do you mean 20 ft., because that's what is in the stat block...?




The iron golem has a speed of 20 ft., so I left it in the stat block.  I'm fine going with 20 ft., 30 ft., or even 25 ft.


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## freyar (Nov 14, 2007)

Maybe +12-15 natural armor but drop Dex to 10-11?  That would bring the AC more in line with a CR of 5 or so.  I mean, Wilbur probably isn't really supposed to be a melee opponent, but you never know with D&D players. 

I agree with magic & adamantine:

Sundering bite (Ex): Wilbur's bite attack counts as magic and adamantine for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction, and it ignores hardness as if it were an adamantine weapon.


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## dhaga (Nov 14, 2007)

+14 natural armor would be good.

Sundering Bite looks good.


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## Shade (Nov 14, 2007)

Added to Homebrews.

Here's a revision to the Feed ability...

Feed (Ex): Wilbur can consume a limitless amount of material, but he only does so if it is considered trash by his owner. He enjoys this part of his job very much. Matter consumed by Wilbur resideds in an extradimensional space, similar to a portable hole, which can only be accessed via Wilbur's mouth.

Should we specify what happens if Wilbur consumes a bag of holding or portable hole?  (KABOOM?)   Also, should we note how to access the extradimensional space should Wilbur be destroyed?


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## freyar (Nov 15, 2007)

I guess KABOOM!  Poor Wilbur. 

I'd say that the extradimensional space destroys any matter placed into it after a short time (1d10 rounds or something), so there's nothing to get out of it after Wilbur is destroyed.  Or maybe this "pocket dimension" is destroyed if Wilbur is.  I guess that would make the most sense.


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## Mortis (Nov 15, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Or maybe this "pocket dimension" is destroyed if Wilbur is.  I guess that would make the most sense.



Or the portal closes on Wilbur's destruction (which amounts to the same thing)

I was thinking of an ability that allows Wilbus to overcome any Damage Reduction other than DR X/-, good idea?

Regards
Mortis


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## freyar (Nov 15, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Or the portal closes on Wilbur's destruction (which amounts to the same thing)



Well, maybe you could still plane shift in to get your stuff back. 



> I was thinking of an ability that allows Wilbus to overcome any Damage Reduction other than DR X/-, good idea?




There are a couple of weapon properties in the MIC that let you bypass DR.  I don't have it at work, though, so we may need to wait until tonight for inspiration.


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## Shade (Nov 15, 2007)

How's this?

Sundering Bite (Ex): Wilbur's bite attack overcomes any type of damage reduction that can be overcome (in other words, anything but "-"), and it ignores hardness as if it were an adamantine weapon.


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## freyar (Nov 15, 2007)

Simple enough. 

Edit: 
Feats: Weapon focus (bite) and ?

Also, just noticed we have his Cha at 1.  Maybe we should up that a bit, to say 8-9 or even 10-11?


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## dhaga (Nov 15, 2007)

Rewrite of Sundering Bite looks good.

Cha 8 should be sufficient.

Feats: Weapon Focus (bite) and Power Lunch.  Or maybe Power Attack, instead, though with him, it amounts to the same thing


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## Shade (Nov 15, 2007)

Updated Homebrews.


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## Mortis (Nov 16, 2007)

dhaga said:
			
		

> Feats: Weapon Focus (bite) and Power Lunch.  Or maybe Power Attack, instead, though with him, it amounts to the same thing



I would have prefered Power Attack and Improved Sunder (to make the bite truly nasty)

Regards
Mortis


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## freyar (Nov 16, 2007)

Actually, that's a good idea.  Let's go with Improved Sunder instead of Weapon Focus, if that's ok with everyone else.  After all, Wilbur is supposed to be all about eating things.


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## Shade (Nov 16, 2007)

Agreed.  Updated Homebrews.

Skills?   Mostly Search?  Maybe Appraise (to determine what's trash)?

CR?


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## freyar (Nov 16, 2007)

How about we split the skill points between Search and Appraise?  Unfortunately, he's got the Int penalty to both.

CR: He's an odd one, considering that he's got a pretty good AC and defensive capabilities without being much of a direct offensive threat.  He's a lot like a rust monster, actually, as he's good at destroying things.  Maybe CR 4-5?  I think it'd be tough for a party lower than that to hit him w/o using a lot of aid another actions.


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## Shade (Nov 16, 2007)

Sounds good on the skills, and I think CR 5 is best.


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## Shade (Nov 19, 2007)

Do we want an advancement or construction?


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## Mortis (Nov 19, 2007)

My personal preference would be no to advancement but yes to construction.

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Nov 19, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> My personal preference would be no to advancement but yes to construction.




6-10 HD (Small); 11-15 HD (Medium)?


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## Mortis (Nov 19, 2007)

Me said:
			
		

> My personal preference would be *no to advancement* but yes to construction.






			
				Shade said:
			
		

> 6-10 HD (Small); 11-15 HD (Medium)?



Well if YOU  want to include advancement that looks good. 

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Nov 19, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Well if YOU  want to include advancement that looks good.




D'oh!   I had it backwards.    

No, I don't really want advancement.

We can tweak the iron golem's construction...

Construction
An iron golem’s body is sculpted from 5,000 pounds of pure iron, smelted with rare tinctures and admixtures costing at least 10,000 gp. Assembling the body requires a DC 20 Craft (armorsmithing) check or a DC 20 Craft (weaponsmithing) check.

CL 16th; Craft Construct, cloudkill, geas/quest, limited wish, caster must be at least 16th level; Price 150,000 gp; Cost 80,000 gp + 5,600 XP.

Wilbur originally weighed 833 pounds, so that gives us our x pounds of pure iron.


Maybe add shrink item and secret chest to the prereqs, and drop cloudkill?

Drop craft DCs to 15?

Drop price to 50,000?


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## Mortis (Nov 19, 2007)

That all looks good to me, but we better see what the others think. 

Regards
Mortis


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## freyar (Nov 19, 2007)

Looks good to me, also.  Should we add the property that he's enchanted to weigh less (after construction)?  Could add feather fall to accomplish that.


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## Shade (Nov 19, 2007)

Look good?

Although Wilbur is unique, the construction process of a pig iron golem could be duplicated.  A pig iron golem’s body is sculpted from 833 pounds of pure iron, smelted with rare tinctures and admixtures costing at least 5,000 gp. Assembling the body requires a DC 15 Craft (armorsmithing) check or a DC 15 Craft (weaponsmithing) check.

CL 11th; Craft Construct, feather fall, geas/quest, secret chest, shrink item, caster must be at least 11th level; Price 50,000 gp; Cost 27,500 gp + 2,000 XP.


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## Mortis (Nov 19, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Look good?



Absolutely - is that it done?

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Nov 19, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Absolutely - is that it done?




It looks like it.  Next!

SHADOW GOLEM

FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVE: 9"
HIT DICE: 70 hit points
% IN LAIR: Nil
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 9-36
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: See below
INTELLIGENCE: Non
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: L (16' tall)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil Attack/Defense Modes: Nil
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE: IX/8750

Shadow golems can be constructed by illusionists of 14th-level or higher. The process entails the casting of the following spells into an specially-fashioned obsidian statue: continual darkness, summon shadow, shades, and alter reality. Construction of a shadow golem requires two months of time and 60,000 gp.

Shadow golems are slightly malevolent in their actions and will seek to twist the meaning of their masters wishes. Therefore, care must be used in giving instructions; simple commands (i.e. stop, go, kill, take, etc.) are far more likely to be carried out without incident than are complex chains of instructions.

When completed, a shadow golem appears as a huge human composed of dull black shadowy matter. Its eyes glow a wicked-looking red.

Shadow golems can be hit only by weapons of +3 or greater enchantment. Most spells do not affect them, but continual light inflicts 3-18 points of damage, and continual darkness repairs 1d6 points of damage to the golem per level of the caster. Note, however, that shadow golems avoid the light of the sun, for that will kill them after 3 rounds of continuous exposure.

In areas of shadow and darkness, shadow golems are virtually undetectable without magical aid, and they can surprise on 1-5 (ld6). They attack as 16+ hit die monsters, and each successful hit requires the victim to save vs. spells or lose 2 points of strength.

Any character whose strength is reduced to 0 in this manner becomes a shadow. Shadow golems are as strong as stone golems.

Originally appeared in Polyhedron #30.


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## Shade (Nov 20, 2007)

Large or Huge?   16 foot is generally the cutoff point.   We could start Large and make the advancement begin at Huge.  Or break the usual golems=Large mold and start 'em out Huge.

"strong as stone golems" = Str 29 (Large) or 37 (Huge)

We can borrow/modify most of this from shadows...

Strength Damage (Su): The touch of a shadow deals 1d6 points of Strength damage to a living foe. A creature reduced to Strength 0 by a shadow dies. This is a negative energy effect.

Create Spawn (Su): Any humanoid reduced to Strength 0 by a shadow becomes a shadow under the control of its killer within 1d4 rounds.

Skills: Shadows have a +2 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks and a +4 racial bonus on Search checks. *A shadow gains a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks in areas of shadowy illumination. In brightly lit areas, it takes a –4 penalty on Hide checks.


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## Shade (Nov 28, 2007)

Anyone?


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## freyar (Nov 28, 2007)

Sorry, it's been a busy couple of weeks.  I can see freedom soon, though. 

Oh, let's just go with starting them large.  I think your Str and borrowing from shadows is pretty much spot on.

Need some kind of light vulnerability, like that of the vampire, maybe, in addition to the usual stuff in the immunity to magic section.  Definitely need DRX/magic (along with whatever else).


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## Shade (Nov 28, 2007)

Added to Homebrews.

I gave it the same Hit Dice as the stone golem based on "Shadow golems are as strong as stone golems."  We could start it at 16 HD based on "They attack as 16+ hit die monsters".

I modified the vampire's vulnerability to sunlight to fit the shadow golem's description.

I gave it the stone golem's ability scores, but thought that we might want to increase the Dex and lower the natural armor.   

Thoughts?


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## freyar (Nov 29, 2007)

Let's bump to 16HD just for the h*** of it.  I like your suggestions about Dex and nat armor.


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## Shade (Nov 30, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Let's bump to 16HD just for the h*** of it.  I like your suggestions about Dex and nat armor.




So be it.

Dex 15?


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## freyar (Nov 30, 2007)

Dex 15 is good.  How about adding "and magic" to the DR?


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## Shade (Nov 30, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Dex 15 is good.  How about adding "and magic" to the DR?




Done and done.

Updated.



> Shadow golems are slightly malevolent in their actions and will seek to twist the meaning of their masters wishes. Therefore, care must be used in giving instructions; simple commands (i.e. stop, go, kill, take, etc.) are far more likely to be carried out without incident than are complex chains of instructions.




Flavor text only or something akin to the berserk ability?


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## freyar (Nov 30, 2007)

I'd make it flavor text for the RBDM.


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## Shade (Dec 3, 2007)

CR 13?



> Shadow golems can be constructed by illusionists of 14th-level or higher. The process entails the casting of the following spells into an specially-fashioned obsidian statue: continual darkness, summon shadow, shades, and alter reality. Construction of a shadow golem requires two months of time and 60,000 gp.




Construction
A shadow golem’s body is chiseled from a single block of obsidian, weighing at least 3,000 pounds. The stone must be of exceptional quality, and costs 5,000 gp. Assembling the body requires a DC X Craft (sculpting) check or a DC X Craft (stonemasonry) check.  (Stone golem DCs are 17, so maybe 19 here?)

CL 14th; Craft Construct, deeper darkness, greater shadow conjuration, limited wish, caster must be at least 14th level; Price 60,000 gp; Cost 32,500 gp + 2,400 XP.

Note:  I dropped shades and went with greater shadow conjuration so a 14th-level caster could still craft it.


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## freyar (Dec 3, 2007)

Your suggested CR and craft DCs sound pretty good from where I sit.


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## Shade (Dec 3, 2007)

Updated.

All that's left is weight.

A greater stone golem is 18 feet tall and weighs around 22,000 pounds.

These guys are two feet shorter and could weigh less due to the shadowstuff that makes up part of their being.


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## freyar (Dec 4, 2007)

Well, dropping 2 feet would give something like 19,800 lbs, so why don't we drop a bit more and go to 17,000 or 18,000?


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## Shade (Dec 4, 2007)

Sounds good.  I like 18,000.

Updated.

All done?


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## Mortis (Dec 4, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> All done?



I'd say so, next...

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Dec 4, 2007)

COPPER GOLEM
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVE: 6"
HIT DICE: 40 hit points
% IN LAIR: Nil
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 3-12/3-12
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: See below
INTELLIGENCE: Semi
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: L (7 1/2' tall)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil Attack/Defense Modes: Nil
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE: VII/2,380

Copper golems can be created by non-good clerics of 14th-level or higher. The process requires the cleric to spend not less than one month praying and fashioning a figure set in copper, then employ bless (or curse if the caster is evil), chant, resist fire, commune, flame strike, and animate object. The entire process costs at least 50,000 gold pieces for materials alone.

The resulting copper golem appears to have skin of red-hot metal, and eyebrows, beard, and hair of flowing flames.

The copper golem will obey its master so long as the cleric keeps a copper talisman, which was made along with the golem, upon his person. The cleric must display the talisman openly to command the golem.

A copper golem attacks as a 9 hit die monster, inflicting 1/2 damage to fire-using creatures or double damage to cold-using creatures. Only +1 or better weapons can damage copper golems, and all non-fire using creatures within 10' must save vs. spells each round or take 1d8 points of damage from the heat unless magically protected from fire.

Magical cold slows the golem by 50% for 2-12 rounds, and a cloudburst inflicts 10 points of damage to a copper golem. Submersion in water will kill a copper golem in 5 rounds. Copper golems are as strong as flesh golems, and they can be healed by magical fire on a 1 hit point for 1 hit point basis like iron golems.

Originally appeared in Polyhedron #30.


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## Shade (Dec 5, 2007)

Looking at ability scores...

Brass Golem: Str 20, Dex 11, Con --, Int 3, Wis 14, Cha 7
Gold Golem: Str 27, Dex 8, Con --, Int --, Wis 11, Cha 1
Iron Golem: Str 33, Dex 9, Con —, Int —, Wis 11, Cha 1

Maybe between gold and iron?   

Str 29, Dex 9?


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## freyar (Dec 5, 2007)

Hmm.  This is flavorfully a lot like a shield guardian.  

The physical stats sound reasonable, maybe.  Is there a reason that the brass is so much weaker, though?  Since brass has copper in it, I'd think the brass and copper golems should have similar stats (or maybe I'm being too logical).


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## Shade (Dec 5, 2007)

Yeah, too logical.  Different designers, for starters.  Perhaps they based it off value of the metal vs. durability?   Dunno.


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## Mortis (Dec 6, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> I'd think the brass and copper golems should have similar stats (or maybe I'm being too logical).



Not that it means much but the brass and copper dragons have the same scores in their physical abilities across all age categories, the copper dragon has +2 to its mental ability scores over the brass dragon at all age categories.

So to cheat a little 
Str 20, Dex 11, Con --, Int 5, Wis 16, Cha 9 

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Dec 6, 2007)

I just noticed the "are as strong as flesh golems" bit.

Flesh Golem Abilities: Str 21, Dex 9, Con —, Int —, Wis 11, Cha 1

So you're about spot-on.    

I'd say that gives us our Hit Dice (9).

Semi- Int equates to 2-4, so let's drop the Int to 4 (still better than the brass).


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## freyar (Dec 6, 2007)

2 slams with extra fire damage?  (maybe +1d6)

Fiery aura (Su): Copper golems are very hot, so all creatures within 10 ft must make a DC X Fort save each round or take 1d4 hp of damage.  The save DC is Strength (?) based.

(I nerfed that a bit, since the greater flame snake, which seems like it should be considerably more challenging, only does 1d6 damage in a 5 ft radius.)

Immunity to Magic (Su): Copper golems are immune to all spells or spell-like abilities that allow spell resistance, except as follows:

A magical attack that deals cold damage slows a copper golem (as the slow spell) for 3 rounds, with no saving throw.

A magical attack that deals fire damage breaks any slow effect on the golem and heals 1 point of damage for each 3 points of damage the attack would otherwise deal. If the amount of healing would cause the golem to exceed its full normal hit points, it gains any excess as temporary hit points. A copper golem gets no saving throw against fire effects.

(Mostly lifted from the iron golem.  Didn't know what to do about cloudburst, since it's not in the SRD.  Replace with sleet storm or ice storm?)

Vulnerability to Water (Ex): If a copper golem is immersed in water, it loses one fifth of its hit points each round and is destroyed completely on the fifth round.

(Basically lifted from the vampire.)


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## Shade (Dec 6, 2007)

All that looks good.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> (Mostly lifted from the iron golem.  Didn't know what to do about cloudburst, since it's not in the SRD.  Replace with sleet storm or ice storm?)




Let's just go with "spells with the water descriptor", lie we dif for the Tin Man.


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## freyar (Dec 6, 2007)

Fine by me.


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## Shade (Dec 6, 2007)

Added to Homebrews.


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## Shade (Dec 6, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> The copper golem will obey its master so long as the cleric keeps a copper talisman, which was made along with the golem, upon his person. The cleric must display the talisman openly to command the golem.




Modifying from the shield guardian...

When it is fashioned, a copper golem is keyed to a particular magical talisman. Henceforth, it regards the bearer of that talisman to be its master, protecting and following that individual everywhere (unless specifically commanded not to do so).  The talisman must be openly displayed to the golem when issuing commands.

A copper golem obeys its master’s verbal commands to the best of its ability, although it is not good for much beyond combat and possibly simple manual labor. It can also be keyed to perform specific tasks at specific times or when certain conditions are met. The bearer of the talisman can call the copper golem from any distance, and it will come as long as it is on the same plane.


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## freyar (Dec 7, 2007)

Looks good!


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## Shade (Dec 7, 2007)

I have no idea why these critters are sentient, but since they've got Int, they've got feats and skills.

Skills: 12
Listen 6, Spot 6?

Feats: 4
Power Attack, Weapon Focus (slam)

Natural armor?
Flesh +10
Brass Steed +13
Gold +16
Brass +22
Iron +22

DC for Craft checks to construct?
Flesh 13
Brass Steed 12
Gold n/a
Brass 25
Iron 20


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## Mortis (Dec 7, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Skills: 12
> Listen 6, Spot 6?



Looks good, and listens as well 



> Feats: 4
> Power Attack, Weapon Focus (slam)



Alertness and Cleave - there's not really that many that are useful to a construct. 



> Natural armor?
> <snip>
> Brass +22



Using my 'dragon standard' the copper has +1 Natural Armor over the brass, so +23?



> DC for Craft checks to construct?
> <snip>
> Brass 25



As its going to be slightly better than a brass golem +26?

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Dec 7, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Alertness and Cleave - there's not really that many that are useful to a construct.




Those will work.



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Using my 'dragon standard' the copper has +1 Natural Armor over the brass, so +23?






			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> As its going to be slightly better than a brass golem +26?




The brass golem appears to be an anomaly, as it is more "magical" than some of the other golems.

I don't think the copper should end up higher than the iron golem on either count, as it is supposed to be a "poor man's version" of the iron golem.

The brass steed might be a better indicator for your "dragon standard", giving it +14 natural armor and DC 14.   Sound good?


----------



## Mortis (Dec 7, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> The brass steed might be a better indicator for your "dragon standard", giving it +14 natural armor and DC 14.   Sound good?



Seems reasonable.

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Dec 7, 2007)

New Avatar, eh?  No more UK Subs?    

Weight?

A brass steed is 6 feet tall at the shoulders and measures 10 feet from head to tail. It weighs 2,500 pounds.

A flesh golem stands 8 feet tall and weighs almost 500 pounds.

A gold golem is "nearly twice the height of a human" and weighs 2,000 pounds.

No height or weight are given for a brass golem.


----------



## Mortis (Dec 7, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> New Avatar, eh?  No more UK Subs?



Fancied a change - it's the logo for a uk punk band - The Exploited 
It probably should have been The Damned as I went to see them last night.

Anyway back to business



> Weight?




A brass steed is 6 feet tall at the shoulders and measures 10 feet from head to tail. It weighs 2,500 pounds.

A flesh golem stands 8 feet tall and weighs almost 500 pounds.

A gold golem is "nearly twice the height of a human" and weighs 2,000 pounds.

No height or weight are given for a brass golem.[/QUOTE]
A quick look at the iron golem gives its weight as 5000 lbs and it also requires 5000 lbs of iron to create, so if we have a number for the amount of brass needed we can work it out from there.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Dec 7, 2007)

Brass golem requires 1,000 pounds of brass.

Of course, it doesn't list its height either, just that it "is most often forged to resemble a minotaur".  

Minotaurs are 7 feet tall.


----------



## Mortis (Dec 7, 2007)

The picture in MMII looks taller than 7 feet, but that might just be that the stained glass golem isn't human size.







Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Dec 7, 2007)

Stained glass golems don't give a height, just Medium size.

How about we split the difference between the brass and brass steed, and go with 1,750 pounds?


----------



## freyar (Dec 8, 2007)

I turn my back for one day, and you practically go and finish! 

Seriously, though, this all looks pretty good.  1750 looks ok, too.


----------



## Shade (Dec 10, 2007)

CR 8?  It's slightly better than a flesh golem at CR 7.


----------



## freyar (Dec 10, 2007)

Sure.


----------



## Shade (Dec 10, 2007)

Next!

OAK GOLEM
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVE: 9"
HIT DICE: 30 hit points
% IN LAIR: Nil
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 3-24
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: See below
INTELLIGENCE: Animal
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: L (8' tall)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil Attack/Defense Modes: Nil
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE: VII/1,065

An oak golem may be created by a druid of 12th-level or higher. To do so, a figure of human likeness must first be carved from a recently fallen oak tree. The druid must cast shillelagh, barkskin, commune with nature, and finally liveoak. Then the druid must spend two weeks praying and polishing the figure with rare oils, after which the golem will animate. The rare oils, tools, and other materials cost a minimum of 25,000 gp.

The finished product resembles a large, finely carved wooden statue of human proportions. Its body is embellished with small, very sharp thorns. The oak golem attacks as a 9 hit die monster with its flailing, thorny fists. In addition to its normal attacks, it can cast entangle twice per day.

The oak golem will serve its druid creator faithfully, obeying simple commands or merely serving as a guard until some predetermined event takes place.

Magical fire slows the oak golem by 50% for 2-12 rounds. Warp wood will deliver 2-12 points of damage, while a plant growth will cure an oak golem of any damage it has sustained. Hold plant will cause it to be non-ambulatory for 1-4 rounds, and turn wood will cause it to move away from the druid at 1" for 2-8 rounds. Oak golems are harmed by magic weapons only.

They are equal in strength to flesh golems.

From Polyhedron #30.


----------



## Shade (Dec 10, 2007)

> They are equal in strength to flesh golems.




Once again, 9 HD?

Flesh Golem Abilities: Str 21, Dex 9, Con —, Int —, Wis 11, Cha 1

Note...



> INTELLIGENCE: Animal




So Int 1-2.

Since its entagle ability will probably be Cha-based, raise Cha to 10-11?


----------



## Shade (Dec 12, 2007)

> Magical fire slows the oak golem by 50% for 2-12 rounds. Warp wood will deliver 2-12 points of damage, while a plant growth will cure an oak golem of any damage it has sustained. Hold plant will cause it to be non-ambulatory for 1-4 rounds, and turn wood will cause it to move away from the druid at 1" for 2-8 rounds. Oak golems are harmed by magic weapons only.




Immunity to Magic (Ex): An oak golem is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below.

A magical attack that deals fire damage slows an oak golem (as the slow spell) for 3 rounds, with no saving throw.

Plant growth breaks any slow effect on the golem and heals it of all damage.

A warp wood spell deals 2d6 points of damage to the golem, while wood shape heals it of 2d6 points of damage.

A repel wood spell causes the oak golem to flee as if it were an undead creature turned by a cleric.


----------



## freyar (Dec 12, 2007)

The stats and immunities sound good.

It looks like the original has one slam attack at 3d8 damage.  Since it gets a +5 from STR, maybe 2 slam attacks at 1d8 damage each?


----------



## Shade (Dec 12, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> It looks like the original has one slam attack at 3d8 damage.  Since it gets a +5 from STR, maybe 2 slam attacks at 1d8 damage each?




Good suggestion.  If you downsize a treant to Large, it deals 1d8 damage.    



> In addition to its normal attacks, it can cast entangle twice per day.




Modifying the stone golem's slow ability...

Entangle (Su): An oak golem can use an entangle effect, as the spell, as a free action once every X rounds. The effect has a range of 40 feet and a duration of X rounds, requiring a DC 14 Reflex save to avoid entanglement. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Added to Homebrews.


----------



## freyar (Dec 12, 2007)

Why don't we just give it entangle 2/day as an SLA at the appropriate CL?


----------



## Shade (Dec 12, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Why don't we just give it entangle 2/day as an SLA at the appropriate CL?




It just seems dull.  And the save DC will suck.


----------



## freyar (Dec 12, 2007)

Ok, fair enough.   Then let's say every 1d4 rounds, lasting for 4 rounds.  That should keep nosy PCs tied up.


----------



## Shade (Dec 12, 2007)

Let's go 1d4+1 rounds, to give folks at least a chance at a one-round window to escape.  

Natural armor?  A treant has +13.

Damage reduction x/adamantine like most golems or x/slashing like a treant?

Skills: 12
Feats: 4
Organization: x

Weight?

DC for Craft check?


----------



## GrayLinnorm (Dec 13, 2007)

Why not adamantine and slashing (or adamantine or slashing)?


----------



## Mortis (Dec 13, 2007)

GrayLinnorm said:
			
		

> Why not adamantine and slashing (or adamantine or slashing)?



I think adamantine *and* slashing is too strong, but I'm fine with adamantine *or* slashing.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## freyar (Dec 13, 2007)

I'd be happy with either/or.


----------



## Shroomy (Dec 13, 2007)

What does the wood golem from _Dragon_ 337 (I think, the one with the lesser golems) have?  I would go with that and then beef it up a little.


----------



## Shroomy (Dec 14, 2007)

I looked it up when I went home and the wood golem's DR was 5/slashing.


----------



## Mortis (Dec 14, 2007)

Maybe 10/slashing then?

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Dec 14, 2007)

So be it.

Thoughts on the other stuff?

Natural armor? A treant has +13, wood golem +8.

Skills: 12
Feats: 4
Organization: x

Weight?

DC for Craft check?


----------



## Mortis (Dec 14, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Natural armor? A treant has +13, wood golem +8.



Better than a wood golem, not as good as a treant, so +10?



> Skills: 12



Max rank is 12, so we could max out 1 skill or give it 2 or 3 at lower ranks - obviously 
Listen, Spot, Hide?



> Feats: 4



Alertness, Blind-Fight, Improved Initiative, Power Attack



> Organization: x



Solitary (plus its druid?)



> Weight?



800 lb



> DC for Craft check?



17

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Dec 14, 2007)

Looks good.  How about DC 14 for the Craft DCs, as it puts it right between flesh and clay (where it stands in terms of relative power)?

I just left the org as "solitary" since the creator seems to usually be left off golem entries.  The "golem standard" appears to be Solitary or gang (2-4)...wanna go that route?

CR 8?  The frequency and duration of the entangle ability makes it slightly better than a flesh golem.


----------



## freyar (Dec 14, 2007)

Those suggestions look good.  For skills, I'd go with 6 ranks each in Listen and Spot.  Just can't see these really hiding very effectively.


----------



## Shade (Dec 14, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Those suggestions look good.  For skills, I'd go with 6 ranks each in Listen and Spot.  Just can't see these really hiding very effectively.




Fair enough. I dropped the Hide ranks.


----------



## freyar (Dec 14, 2007)

Sure, CR 8.  Let's allow "gangs" also. Craft DC 14 is also good.


----------



## Shade (Dec 14, 2007)

Updated.   Another one done?


----------



## freyar (Dec 14, 2007)

I guess so!


----------



## Shade (Dec 14, 2007)

BRASS GOLEM

FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVE: 6"
HIT DICE: 50 hit points
% IN LAIR: Nil
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 3-18
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: See below
INTELLIGENCE: Non
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: L (12' tall)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil Attack/Defense Modes: Nil
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE: VIII/4,100

Any good-aligned magic-user of 14th-level or higher may construct a brass golem by crafting a large statue of brass and employing the following spells: enchant an item, continual light, protection from evil, and limited wish. The statue must be commissioned from a master craftsman for not less than 50,000 gp. Once it is completed, the process of preparation and enchantment requires at least two months to finish.

Upon its completion, the brass golem will appear as a large, handsome human figure with shining, brassy skin. Its dress is typically that of the Grecian epoch, and it constantly emits light equal to that of a light spell.

Brass golems never harm their creators, remaining faithful until destroyed. A brass golem attacks twice per round with a crude two-handed sword, striking as a 13 hit die monster. Whenever a hit is scored, small bursts of light equal to torchlight flash from the point of contact. Once every two rounds, the brass polem can increase its illumination so that it duplicates the sunburst effect of the wand of illumination, except that the golems sunburst affects only a 1" x 1" x 1" cube directly in front of it.

Weapons of +2 or greater enchantment are required to harm brass golems, and the only spell which can adversely affect one is continual darkness, which causes the golem to become rigid for one round, and negates its ability to produce the sunburst effect for 3 rounds. Note that a continual light spell will cure 4-40 points of damage sustained by the golem.

Brass golems are equal in strength to clay golems.

From Polyhedron #30.


----------



## freyar (Dec 14, 2007)

Ummm, need to double check, but is this different from the brass golem in MM2?  And if so, should we rename it to distinguish it?


----------



## Shade (Dec 14, 2007)

Yeah.  Sadly, the one in MMII should've been called "brass minotaur" as it had in previous editions, but alas, it changed names so now so must we.  

How about "brass guardian" or "brass sentinel"?


----------



## freyar (Dec 14, 2007)

Brass sentinel has a nice ring to it.  We can put a note in that this used to be a brass golem. 

HD and STR from the clay golem?


----------



## Shade (Dec 14, 2007)

Sounds good.  

Added to Homebrews.



> Weapons of +2 or greater enchantment are required to harm brass golems, and the only spell which can adversely affect one is continual darkness, which causes the golem to become rigid for one round, and negates its ability to produce the sunburst effect for 3 rounds. Note that a continual light spell will cure 4-40 points of damage sustained by the golem.




Typical golem DR x/adamanting?

Spells with darkness descriptor slow golem and suppress sunburst effect for a number of rounds equal to spell level?

Spells with light descriptor heal golem of 1d10 points of damage per spell level?


----------



## freyar (Dec 17, 2007)

That all sounds reasonable.


----------



## Shade (Dec 17, 2007)

> A brass golem attacks twice per round with a crude two-handed sword, striking as a 13 hit die monster. Whenever a hit is scored, small bursts of light equal to torchlight flash from the point of contact. Once every two rounds, the brass polem can increase its illumination so that it duplicates the sunburst effect of the wand of illumination, except that the golems sunburst affects only a 1" x 1" x 1" cube directly in front of it.




Rather than the cube, reduce the sunburst effect to a 10-foot radius burst?


----------



## freyar (Dec 18, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Rather than the cube, reduce the sunburst effect to a 10-foot radius burst?




Well, the cube is a bit smaller, but I guess 10ft radius is about the smallest we can go...  Could be a 5ft square, affecting the creature hit?


----------



## Shroomy (Dec 18, 2007)

How does the 1e _sunburst_ compare to the 3e version?


----------



## Shade (Dec 18, 2007)

Shroomy said:
			
		

> How does the 1e _sunburst_ compare to the 3e version?




Pretty closely, except the damage cap vs. undead is higher in 3e (25d6 vs. 10d6).


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## Shade (Dec 18, 2007)

How's this?

Sunburst (Su):  A brass sentinel golem can use a sunburst effect, as the spell, as a free action once every 2 rounds. The effect has a range of 10 feet and deals 6d6 points of damage (11d6 points of damage to undead).  A DC 17 Reflex save halves the damage. The save DC is Constitution-based.


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## freyar (Dec 19, 2007)

Good enough!  Sounds reasonable for its likely CR, also.


----------



## Shade (Dec 19, 2007)

+20 natural armor?

CR 11?  Sunburst seems worth 1 CR over the equally-strong clay golem.

3,000 pounds?


----------



## freyar (Dec 19, 2007)

I'd say that the natural armor sounds reasonable, though it's 6 more than the clay golem.  Is AC 28 still reasonable for CR 11?


----------



## Shade (Dec 19, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> I'd say that the natural armor sounds reasonable, though it's 6 more than the clay golem.  Is AC 28 still reasonable for CR 11?




At CR 11, the shadesteel golem is AC 33.  The alchemical and stone golems are AC 26.


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## freyar (Dec 19, 2007)

Good enough, then.  Are we done?


----------



## Shade (Dec 19, 2007)

I believe so.


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## Shade (Jan 2, 2008)

There's not much to these next fellows.

Straw Golems: 2; AL N; MV 12"; HD 2 + 4; hp 20 each; AC 10; THAC0 16; #AT 2; Dmg 1-2, 1-2; Size M; In non; Sts 10; Stw 9; SD immune to bladed weapons; half damage from blunt weapons; double damage from fire; immune to mind-effecting magic

From Polyhedron #41.

Echohawk posted an image here.


----------



## Shroomy (Jan 3, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> There's not much to these next fellows.
> 
> Straw Golems: 2; AL N; MV 12"; HD 2 + 4; hp 20 each; AC 10; THAC0 16; #AT 2; Dmg 1-2, 1-2; Size M; In non; Sts 10; Stw 9; SD immune to bladed weapons; half damage from blunt weapons; double damage from fire; immune to mind-effecting magic
> 
> ...




Kind of blah if you ask me and I'd rather use a scarecrow.  One thing though, I don't understand the immunity to bladed weapons, I'd ditch that and replace it with DR that affects blunt and piercing weapons


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## Shade (Jan 3, 2008)

Shroomy said:
			
		

> Kind of blah if you ask me and I'd rather use a scarecrow.  One thing though, I don't understand the immunity to bladed weapons, I'd ditch that and replace it with DR that affects blunt and piercing weapons




Agreed on all counts.  I picture these fellows as cheap, weak versions of the scarecrow.

The 5-HD scarecrow has +4 natural armor, damage reduction 5/slashing or bludgeoning, immunity to cold, and vulnerability to fire.

Its abilities are: Str 15, Dex 10, Con —, Int —, Wis 11, Cha 10

Maybe reduce these fellows to Str 13, no natural armor, no immunity to cold, and damage reduction 3/slashing or bludgeoning?

Where scarecrows have claw attacks, these fellas look more like slams from the picture.


----------



## freyar (Jan 3, 2008)

Agreed.  The original damage looks like 1d2.  That's incredibly low, even for something cheap, so maybe 1d4+str?


----------



## Shade (Jan 3, 2008)

Yeah, that sounds fine.


----------



## Shade (Jan 3, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.


----------



## freyar (Jan 3, 2008)

CR 1?

Advancement: 3-4HD Medium, 5-6HD Large ?


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## Shade (Jan 3, 2008)

Looks good.  Its toughter than a CR 1 paper golem, but lacks the immunity to magic.

Any idea how much 6 feet of straw would weigh?

A straw golem's body is formed from a man-sized bundle of straw. The body is then treated with solvents and alchemical substances (worth at least 200 gp). Crafting the body requires a DC X Use Rope check.

Here's the paper golems costs and prereqs:

   CL 5th; Craft Construct, keen edge, mending, resistance, caster must be at least 5th level; Price 600 gp; Cost 400 gp + 16 XP.

Maybe keep mending and add unseen servant.  Maybe 500 gp for the price?


----------



## freyar (Jan 3, 2008)

It's been a long time since I've dealt with straw, but I'd think 50-100 lb depending on how tightly it's packed.

DC 15 use rope?   Should be pretty easy.  Price 500 is good, cost 200 + whatever xp.


----------



## Shade (Jan 3, 2008)

Updated.  Anything left?


----------



## freyar (Jan 3, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> Updated.  Anything left?




Language?


----------



## Shade (Jan 3, 2008)

A straw golem speaks only when spoken to.


----------



## Shade (Jan 4, 2008)

This one looks like fun.    

_The world around you turns sideways and you fall into the snow. You are seized by vertigo. You cannot seem to determine which direction is up! Your stomach lurches and you feel nauseous. Many horrible misshapen creatures swoop suddenly down and attack you!_

Until the PCs defeat the creatures, they suffer a -4 penalty to attacks and saving throws. In order to stand, a PC must roll under half his or her Constitution score. Alternately, a PC may elect to attack while prone, suffering an additional -2 penalty to attack and allowing the creature a +4 to attack.

The attacking creatures are mischiefs. They have already used their mirror image ability, so they seem to be 16 creatures attacking instead of five.

Mischief, snow (5): INT: Very; AL: CN; AC: 7; MV: 6, Fl 12; HD: 2+2; HP: 18,16,14,13,13; THAC0: 19; #AT:4 (claw, claw, bite tail); DMG: 1d4/1d4/1d4/1d6; SA: cold touch, innate spells; SD: mirror image; SZ: S; ML: 13.

Snow mischiefs are small, winged creatures from the para-elemental plane of ice. Loki brought the mischiefs here and asked them to "have-fun" with the mortals. The creatures attack the PCs, the jarl and Orast. They fight with reckless abandon, for when they drop to zero hit points, they are sent back to the para-elemental plane of ice. They use their vertigo ability (described in the text above) to disorient the characters and mirror image to confuse them. Their cold touch drains one point of Constitution each time they hit with a claw attack. The effect lasts one turn per successful claw hit, assuming that measures are taken to warm the affected victim. If the victim's Constitution reaches zero, he falls unconscious for a turn and awakes weak and unable to move until his Constitution reaches half of its original score. At that point, the victim can begin to move around again.

From "Runefire: Father Winter's Curse" by Steve Theis, Ed Wilson, Gary Watkins, and Walter Baas; Polyhedron #116


----------



## freyar (Jan 4, 2008)

First things first: elemental or fey (extraplanar) (or something else)?  I kind of like these as fey.  Somehow it just seems right.


----------



## Shade (Jan 4, 2008)

I prefer Echohawk's original assessment as elemental, since they do hail from the Parelemental Plane of Ice.


----------



## freyar (Jan 4, 2008)

Sounds fine.  Stats?  Str looks about average to me from the attacks, so 10-11.  Dex I'd guess to be pretty good, maybe 15ish.  Con around 12?  Int is supposed to be, what, around 14?  Wis and Cha can probably be about 10-11.


----------



## Shade (Jan 4, 2008)

I agree with most of that, except Cha.  I think that should be high since they are tricksters, and their special abilities will probably be Cha-based.  I'm thinking 15 or so.

"Very" Int is 11-12.


----------



## freyar (Jan 4, 2008)

That all sounds good to me.  Perfect maneuverability in flight?


----------



## Shade (Jan 7, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.


----------



## freyar (Jan 7, 2008)

> Until the PCs defeat the creatures, they suffer a -4 penalty to attacks and saving throws. In order to stand, a PC must roll under half his or her Constitution score. Alternately, a PC may elect to attack while prone, suffering an additional -2 penalty to attack and allowing the creature a +4 to attack.




Vertiginous (Su): A 10 ft radius aura surrounds a snow mischief at all times.  Any creature that enters this aura becomes sickened for 5 rounds due to the intense feeling of vertigo created by this aura.  In addition, the creature must make a DC 13 Fortitude save or fall prone immediately.  A creature is only affected once by the vertiginous aura of a given snow mischief once in a twenty-four hour period.  The save DC is Charisma-based.



> Their cold touch drains one point of Constitution each time they hit with a claw attack. The effect lasts one turn per successful claw hit, assuming that measures are taken to warm the affected victim. If the victim's Constitution reaches zero, he falls unconscious for a turn and awakes weak and unable to move until his Constitution reaches half of its original score. At that point, the victim can begin to move around again.




Ability damage (Su): The claw attack of snow mischiefs deal one point of Con damage on each hit.  Unlike normal ability damage, the character regains one point of ability score for each ten minutes spent in a moderate or warmer temperature.  In addition, if a creature's Constitution is reduced to zero by a snow mischief's claw attack, the creature is not killed but rendered unconscious for one minute, after which its Constitution returns to 1.  Upon returning to consciousness, the creature is staggered until its Constitution reaches half its normal value.


----------



## Shade (Jan 8, 2008)

Nice!

For the mirror image ability, it looks like they get around 3 images each, which would put the caster level at a max of 8 (at CL 9, the minimum # of images is 4).

So CL 8?

For the cold touch, I think they should do some cold damage as well.  Maybe 1d4 like a similarly-sized ice paraelemental?


----------



## freyar (Jan 9, 2008)

Agreed with all of that!  So claw damage is 1d4+1d4 cold+Con damage.  What do you think about cold damage on the bite and tail, also?


----------



## Shade (Jan 9, 2008)

Sounds good.


----------



## Shade (Jan 9, 2008)

Skills: 15

Bluff 5, Sleight of Hand 5, Tumble 5?

Feats: Ability Focus (vertigionous aura)?

Organization: Solitary or lark (2-6)?

Challenge Rating: 2?  (They are deadlier than a CR 1 Small ice paraelemental with the same HD)

Treasure: None?

Advancement: 4-6 HD (Small)?


----------



## freyar (Jan 9, 2008)

I like all that, but shouldn't the advancement be from *3*-6 HD?


----------



## Shade (Jan 9, 2008)

Indeed!

A snow mischief is x feet tall and weighs x pounds.

Snow mischiefs speak Aquan and Auran?


----------



## freyar (Jan 9, 2008)

3ft and 40lb?  Languages sound right.


----------



## Shade (Jan 9, 2008)

That'll work.

Updated.

A snow mischief can be summoned with a summon monster III or summon nature's ally II spell?

(Same as Small elementals)


----------



## freyar (Jan 9, 2008)

I'd agree with that.  Basically done?


----------



## Shade (Jan 9, 2008)

It appears so.


----------



## Shade (Jan 9, 2008)

Phase Jelly
by Greg Deckler

CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any subterranean
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Animal (1)
TREASURE: J, M, Q
ALIGNMENT: Neutral

NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 8 (tentacles 5)
MOVEMENT: 3, Br 1
HIT DICE: 4
THAC0: 17
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1-10
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-2
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M(4'-7')
MORALE: Average (10)
XP VALUE: 1,400

The phase jelly is a disgusting blob of sickly-smelling slime. Jellies can be any color imaginable, but a single specimen will be one color throughout. Each jelly has 10 tentacles, each ranging from 12' to 18' long.

*Combat*: The phase jelly attacks similarly to a marine ooze, its tentacles erupting from the floor, ceiling, or walls of subterranean passages. The jelly has the ability to phase into and out of solid stone, making these attacks possible. Although the tentacles secrete a noxious mixture that only causes 1-2 points of physical damage, creatures coming in contact with the mixture must save verses poison at +2 or become paralyzed.
The phase jelly has a far more insidious attack form. If any animal, human, or demi-human remains relatively stationary for three rounds or more in the vicinity of a hidden phase jelly, the jelly will attempt to slowly envelope its victim and phase back into the stone along with the victim's feet. This form of attack adds +3 to the jelly's attempt to surprise an intended victim. If the victim is surprised, the attack automatically succeeds. If the surprise fails, the victim can avoid the jelly with a successful Dexterity check. A victim who is phased into the floor with the jelly looses 8 hit points per turn he is in contact with the jelly and its acidic digestive juices.
The jelly is immune to acid and attacks from blunt weapons. Edged weapons cause only one-half damage. Fire, cold, and electricity cause full damage. In addition, electricity stuns any tentacles it touches for 1-10 rounds. A phase door or passwall spell will kill the jelly instantly if it is phased with the stone. Spells such as earthquake, move earth, rock to mud, or stone to flesh will force a jelly to the surface.

*Habitat/Society*: Phase jelly inhabits the darkest dungeons, usually lurking within the stonework and using its tentacles to sense the vibrations of passing creatures. Metal armor, weapons, and coins can be found in the vicinity of a jelly, as its digestive juices cannot handle these materials. These expelled materials often inadvertently create a trap for adventurers who attempt to greedily gather up the items.
It is a solitary creature and will not tolerate the presence of other phase jellies in its territory.

*Ecology*: Although the phase jelly can eat virtually any type of organic material, it is especially fond of drow. Phase jelly has no natural predators. Wizards have experimented with the jelly and its tentacles, but have found no useful spell components.

From Polyhedron #67 (1992).


----------



## Shade (Jan 10, 2008)

Ability scores of other jellies:

Airjelly (S):  Str 6, Dex 22, Con 28, Int -, Wis 1, Cha 
Ochre Jelly (L):  Str 15, Dex 1, Con 22, Int —, Wis 1, Cha 
Shadow Jelly (L):  Str 15, Dex 1, Con 18, Int -, Wis 1, Cha 1
Assassin Jelly (M): Str 15, Dex 15, Con 20, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 1
Flesh Jelly (G):  Str 32, Dex 6, Con 23, Int --, Wis 1, Cha 1

Its Intelligence is given as 1.

So maybe...Str 15, Dex 10, Con 20, Int 1, Wis 1, Cha 1?


----------



## qstor (Jan 15, 2008)

What about the moon men and earthmen etc in #74? 

Mike


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## Shade (Jan 15, 2008)

We can hit those next.  I'll bother Echohawk for the stats.


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## Shade (Jan 16, 2008)

OK, since we haven't really started on the phase jelly, and that was just me picking one rather than an actual request, let's tackle this request first.  Thanks to Echohawk as always for the original stats.    

*Moon Man*

CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Lunar caverns
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
ORGANIZATION: Theocracy
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Average to Genius (8-18)
TREASURE: Varies
ALIGNMENT: Lawful neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1 (2-12)
ARMOR CLASS: 10
MOVEMENT: 12
HIT DICE: 1
THAC0: 19
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-4 or by weapon
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M (6')
MORALE: Average (8-10)
XP VALUE: 15

Moon men are the survivors of an advanced technological civilization. In fact, they are not native to Luna, having escaped to the moon from the planet Vulcan before it exploded to create the present asteroid belt beyond Mars.
Moon men are vaguely humanoid, and of approximately the same size. Their arms are quite long, ending in threefingered hands, and their legs are comparatively small, sporting two-toed feet. Their skin color is pale blue, revealing blood vessels and muscles beneath its thin surface. Moon men wear a variety of clothing depending on their position within society.
Moon men speak their own language.

*Combat*: Moon men aren't particularly effective unarmed fighters. However, they can be armed with knives (ld4 damage), spears (ld6 damage), clubs (ld6 damage), sabers (ld8 damage), or even electric rifles. Electric rifles have a short range of 50 yards, medium range of 100 yards, and long range of 150 yards, and they inflict Id8 points of damage. A single weapon has IdlOO shots remaining before it must be recharged. Magical protection from electricity or lightning may nullify the damage inflicted by an electric rifle. On any attack roll of 1 an electric rifle is jammed and must be repaired.

*Habitat/Society*: The moon men are governed by the science priests, councilors who protect the ancient tomes of technology and preach from them.

*Ecology*: The moon men have great electrical technology locked up in their manuals of knowledge, if they can be wrested from the science priests.

From "A New Crystal Sphere: Combat, Planets, And The Aliens of Sol", an adaption of Space: 1889 to the Spelljammer setting, by Timothy B. Brown; Polyhedron #74


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## Shade (Jan 16, 2008)

Since they are 1 HD, I propose we approach them as a playable race, working on the racial traits before getting to the actual stat blocks.

The text seems to indicate average physical ability scores and high Intelligence.   A Wisdom bonus might also be appropriate.


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## freyar (Jan 16, 2008)

Agreed.  Humanoid rather than monstrous humanoid, I'd think, also.

Racial int bonus of +4, wis bonus of +2?


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## Shade (Jan 16, 2008)

That sounds reasonable.



> Combat: Moon men aren't particularly effective unarmed fighters. However, they can be armed with knives (ld4 damage), spears (ld6 damage), clubs (ld6 damage), sabers (ld8 damage), or even electric rifles. Electric rifles have a short range of 50 yards, medium range of 100 yards, and long range of 150 yards, and they inflict Id8 points of damage. A single weapon has IdlOO shots remaining before it must be recharged. Magical protection from electricity or lightning may nullify the damage inflicted by an electric rifle. On any attack roll of 1 an electric rifle is jammed and must be repaired.




Modifying the laser rifle and energy pack from the futuristic weapons portion of the SRD...

Electric Rifle:  This exotic ranged weapon has a range increment of 150 feet and a maximum range of 450 feet.  It deals 1d8 points of electricity damage.  Electric rifles fire 100 times before they need to be reloaded and have a rate of fire equal to the attacker's number of attacks. Reloading is a standard action.

Electricity Pack: This small pack fits snugly into the butt of an electric rifle. It powers the rifle for one hundred shots. 

Should moon men have Weapon Familiarity with this weapon?


----------



## freyar (Jan 18, 2008)

Looks good.  About weapon familiarity: should even commoners have that?  Is there a non-clunky way to give weapon familiarity to warrior and fighter types but not other classes?


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## Shroomy (Jan 19, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Looks good.  About weapon familiarity: should even commoners have that?  Is there a non-clunky way to give weapon familiarity to warrior and fighter types but not other classes?




I think the moon men should have weapon familiarity with their racial weapons.  Even if they have familiarity, they still suffer the -4 penalty if they are not proficient with martial weapons (which would apply to NPC classes like commoner and expert).


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## freyar (Jan 20, 2008)

Shroomy said:
			
		

> I think the moon men should have weapon familiarity with their racial weapons.  Even if they have familiarity, they still suffer the -4 penalty if they are not proficient with martial weapons (which would apply to NPC classes like commoner and expert).




Oh, bingo, that's right.  I was getting this confused with a free proficiency.  Then, yes, let's give them familiarity.


----------



## Shade (Jan 22, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.


----------



## freyar (Jan 23, 2008)

Do we need SA or SQ in the racial write-up?  Automatic languages: Moonfolk and Common?  Bonus languages: ?


----------



## Shade (Jan 23, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Do we need SA or SQ in the racial write-up?  Automatic languages: Moonfolk and Common?  Bonus languages: ?




Nah. I left it as a placeholder just in case.  It looks pretty much like there aren't any, so I'll remove those lines.

For bonus languages, maybe the languages of some of the other creatures from the same article?  (Such as Draconic for Venusian lizardfolk)


----------



## freyar (Jan 23, 2008)

Sounds good to me.

Edit: 5 skills at 4 ranks: Climb, Intimidate, Jump, Ride, Swim? (Just took those from Warrior class skills)

Feats: Weapon Focus (electric rifle)?


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## Shade (Jan 23, 2008)

Weapon Focus looks fine.

For skills, how about...

Appraise 2, Climb 4, Craft (weaponsmithing) 2, Intimidate 2, Jump 4, Knowledge (arcana) 2, Swim 4?

Here's an idea to help distinguish them as a unique race.

How about a racial bonus on Appraise, Craft, Disable Device, Knowledge, and Use Magic Device checks related to devices that utilize electricity?


----------



## freyar (Jan 23, 2008)

Sounds good to me.  Maybe +4 on that racial bonus, or do you want to stick to +2?


----------



## Shade (Jan 23, 2008)

Let's stick with +2 since it affects multiple skills.

Organization: Solitary, X (2-12), or theocracy (x)

Treasure: Standard?

A typical moon man stands around 6 feet tall and weighs x pounds. 

Most moon men are warriors, and most leaders are clerics (?). Moon man clerics are know as "science priests".  They do not worship a specific deity, instead simply worshiping technology. A moon man cleric has access to two of the following domains: Artifice, Creation, Knowledge, and Weather.

Favored Class: Cleric?


----------



## freyar (Jan 23, 2008)

The easy bits: standard treasure, 150lb (let's make 'em skinny).  Cleric makes sense for the leaders and favored class (well, among fantasy classes).

Organization: Solitary, Cluster? (2-12), or theocracy (30-50 plus 3 3rd level clerics?)


----------



## Shade (Jan 23, 2008)

Updated.  Anything left?


----------



## freyar (Jan 23, 2008)

Looks done!


----------



## Shade (Jan 24, 2008)

Next!

*Martian, High*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Mountains, kraags
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
ORGANIZATION: Monarchy/clan
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Semi-to Genius (218)
TREASURE: Varies
ALIGNMENT: Neutral Evil
NO. APPEARING: 2-8
ARMOR CLASS: 10
MOVEMENT: 12, Fl 18 (B)
HIT DICE: 1 + 1
THAC0: 19
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 or 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-6 or by weapon
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M (6')
MORALE: Champion (15-16)
XP VALUE: 35

High Martians are the original stock from which the other two Martian races descended. High Martians are savage raiders who terrorize their world from their mountain fastnesses.

High Martians are upright bipeds that can grow to six feet in height. Their hands and feet are all three-toed, grasping appendages, and wing membranes extend from their backs to either arm. High Martians have thick, black hair that covers their head, back, and shoulders. 

High Martians wear a simple loincloth and may decorate their bodies with other ornamentation.

High Martians have their own language. Many speak other martian languages, particularly Koline (the trade language) or the languages of the Earthmen. Every High Martian monarch has interpreters.

Combat: High Martians have a lifting gland that supports them in flight; their wings are used mostly for balance and maneuvering. When in flight, a high martian can attack twice with his hands, inflicting 1d6 points of damage each, or he may wield up to two weapons, attacking with each once per round. While standing, a high martian can only attack once per round, either with hands or weapons.

Habitat/Society: A number of High Martian families form clans, and a number of clans organize themselves behind a single monarch. The monarch is usually tested in personal combat by all comers-a High Martian king is often the most able warrior in the clans.
High Martians survive by raiding. They raid canal Martians and Earthmen at will, striking from the air whenever possible. They are also free to attack liftwood vessels in flight, swarming them to seize both ship and cargo.

High Martians have, on occasion, been known to trade, particularly in valuable liftwood and slaves taken in raids.

Ecology: When a High Martian dies, its lifting gland quickly loses its valuable properties.

Canal Martian: Canal Martians are taller and larger than High Martians, attaining seven feet in height. Canal Martians have no lifting gland or wings, so they cannot fly, and their feet have lost the ability to grasp objects, so they are limited to a single attack per round. The canal Martians have lighter coloration than their high Martian cousins. Canal martians dress in a style similar to that of ancient Egypt. There are a number ofvanal Martian languages, including High Oenotrian, Parhooni, Koline, and Umbran.

Canal Martians live in the canal cities of their own making. Their civilization, while once the most elaborate and successful on Mars, is most definitely in decline.

Hill Martian: A hill Martian is for the most part a wilderness version of a canal Martian; hill Martians cannot fly and don't have grasping feet. They are darker than canal martians, with brown, black, or even deep red hair that grows over most of their bodies. They dress mainly in the skins of animals and similar, primitive garb, though those in contact with canal Martians often adopt their dress. Hill Martians speak a variety of languages particular to their many cultures.

Hill Martians have a variety of cultures, all beyond the reach of the canal princes and their power. They are frontiersmen, living by various means in the wildernesses of their world.

From "A New Crystal Sphere: Combat, Planets, And The Aliens of Sol", an adaption of Space: 1889 to the Spelljammer setting, by Timothy B. Brown; Polyhedron #74


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## Shroomy (Jan 24, 2008)

Well, I think they are still humanoid.  

They definitely should get the Multi-Attack feat; the description below only indicates 1 or 2 attacks, but given the rules of 3.5e and the flavor text, four attacks are not out of the question.  I think they should get 2 slam attacks in addition to their ability to use weapons.

I think there flight sounds like something a beholder may have, so you may want to model it off their ability but make it an extraordinary ability.


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## freyar (Jan 25, 2008)

I agree with Shroomy here.  Does the wide range of intelligence just mean a zero racial ability bonus and the usual range from dice rolling?  Or does it mean that the varieties have different abilities?  I'm kind of hoping it's the former.


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## Shade (Jan 25, 2008)

Agreed with the multiattacks, and I do think the Int is the former.

No getting around a LA for these guys, with good maneuverability flight.


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## freyar (Jan 25, 2008)

Do we want to start with a racial write-up?  We've settled on roughly no Int bonus, but I think a Dex bonus is appropriate, maybe up to +4.  What do you think?


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## Shade (Jan 25, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Do we want to start with a racial write-up?  We've settled on roughly no Int bonus, but I think a Dex bonus is appropriate, maybe up to +4.  What do you think?




I'd disagree.  Since they were originally AC 10, that implies no Dex bonus, despite their ability to use both hands and feet to attack.  The 1+1 HD might indicate a +2 Con, though.

How do these look?

Flight (Ex): A high martian's possesses a lifting gland that allows it to fly at a speed of 50 feet with good maneuverability. This buoyancy also grants it a permanent feather fall effect (as the spell) with personal range.

Multidextrous (Ex):  A high martian's hands and feet are three-toed, and it can use them equally well.  It may wield a weapon in each hand or foot, and can wield a two-handed weapon in either both hands or both feet (but not one hand and one foot).


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## freyar (Jan 25, 2008)

Oops, you're right.  I need to pay more attention today!  +2 Con sounds about right.

Those abilities look good.


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## Shade (Jan 28, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

Favored class barbarian?


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## freyar (Jan 28, 2008)

Barb. sounds good.  Weight 150lb or do we want to drop it a little to make it easier to fly and account for low martian gravity?


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## Shade (Jan 29, 2008)

Good idea.  Let's drop it to 120 lbs.

No skills seem to leap out at me from the flavor text, so maybe just go with Climb 4, Intimidate 4, Jump 4? 

For the feat, Flyby Attack?



Suggestions for the X's?

Organization: Solitary, x (2-8), clan (x plus x Xth-level barbarians), or monarchy (x plus x Xth-level barbarians plus 1 Xth-level barbarian king)

Most high martians are warriors, and most leaders are barbarians. High martian clerics worship x. A high martian cleric has access to two of the following domains: x.


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## freyar (Jan 29, 2008)

Skills & feat look good.

Patrol.
Clan (30-50 plus 10 3rd level barbarians)
Monarchy (5-10 clans plus 1 8th level barbarian king)

Ares.  War & Strength.

Should we put in write-ups for the variants?


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## Shade (Jan 29, 2008)

Great suggestion on Ares.  



> Canal Martian: Canal Martians are taller and larger than High Martians, attaining seven feet in height. Canal Martians have no lifting gland or wings, so they cannot fly, and their feet have lost the ability to grasp objects, so they are limited to a single attack per round. The canal Martians have lighter coloration than their high Martian cousins. Canal martians dress in a style similar to that of ancient Egypt. There are a number ofvanal Martian languages, including High Oenotrian, Parhooni, Koline, and Umbran.
> 
> Canal Martians live in the canal cities of their own making. Their civilization, while once the most elaborate and successful on Mars, is most definitely in decline.




Lose the flight and multidextrous ability.  Adjust the attack lines.  Change Automatic and Bonus Languages.



> Hill Martian: A hill Martian is for the most part a wilderness version of a canal Martian; hill Martians cannot fly and don't have grasping feet. They are darker than canal martians, with brown, black, or even deep red hair that grows over most of their bodies. They dress mainly in the skins of animals and similar, primitive garb, though those in contact with canal Martians often adopt their dress. Hill Martians speak a variety of languages particular to their many cultures.
> 
> Hill Martians have a variety of cultures, all beyond the reach of the canal princes and their power. They are frontiersmen, living by various means in the wildernesses of their world.




Basically as canal martians.


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## freyar (Jan 30, 2008)

Agreed.  Mostly done, I guess, and I'll check it over once homebrews is updated.


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## Shade (Jan 31, 2008)

Updated.

Suggested weapons for the attack lines?

Favored class for canal martians?


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## freyar (Jan 31, 2008)

The high martian is missing a CR line...

Canal martians, hmm, maybe fighters?  Then we'd have a representative of each of the 3 main martial classes.

Maybe a scimitar for the melee weapon and a longbow for ranged?

Just had a thought: do we want to give the high martians two-weapon fighting as a bonus feat, given the multidexterity?


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## Shade (Jan 31, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> The high martian is missing a CR line...




Fixed.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Canal martians, hmm, maybe fighters?  Then we'd have a representative of each of the 3 main martial classes.




Good call.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Maybe a scimitar for the melee weapon and a longbow for ranged?




Sounds good.  Or maybe a pair of scimitars in the hands and a longbow wielded by the feet?



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Just had a thought: do we want to give the high martians two-weapon fighting as a bonus feat, given the multidexterity?




Rather than as a bonus feat, let's just make it their feat.  With good maneuverability, they can hover, so don't really need Flyby Attack.


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## freyar (Feb 1, 2008)

I like all of that, but with 2 scimitars and a longbow, do they take a multi-weapon penalty?  Maybe we should give them Multiweapon fighting, since they sort of have more than 2 hands.


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## Shade (Feb 1, 2008)

Good point.  Multiweapon Fighting is probably more appropriate.  I'll make the change.


----------



## Shade (Feb 1, 2008)

Updated.

I had to swap Str for Dex to meet prereqs for Multiweapon Fighting.

I updated Multidextrous to make it more useful.

Look OK?


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## freyar (Feb 2, 2008)

Looks good, and I think it's done!


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## Shade (Feb 4, 2008)

*Lizard Man, Venusian*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Swamps, water
FREQUENCY: Common (on Venus)
ORGANIZATION: Family/clan
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Semi-to Very (2-12)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Any
NO. APPEARING: 2-12
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVEMENT: 9, Sw 12
HIT DICE: 1
THAC0: 19
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-6 or by weapon
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M (5-6')
MORALE: Elite (13-14)
XP VALUE: 15

Venusian lizard men are an offshoot of the more common lizard man race of Wildspace.
The Venusian lizard man is relatively short, standing between five and six feet in height. His feet are three-toed and webbed, but his hands are quite intricate, having three fingers and an opposable thumb. The Venusian lizard man's long tail and webbed feet assist him in swimming. When running, the Venusian lizard man prefers to use all four limbs, sliding along on his belly across the damp ground. The skin on his back is dark green or gray-brown, and his belly is usually a lighter shade. Venusian lizard men speak a primitive version of their original language known as Low Lizard Man. Communication between speakers of the lizard man language and those speaking Low Lizard Man is possible, but the possibility of miscommunication is everpresent.

Combat: Venusian lizard men fashion their native weapons from the oma jolima, a reed-like plant of their native world. Javelins, harpoons, spears, arrows, clubs, axes, and maces can be made from the plant. Some Venusian lizard men have acquired firearms from the colonizing Earthmen, though ammunition is in short supply.

The oma jolima plant can also be formed into helmets and other armor. A Venusian lizard man so armored has an effective AC of 3.

Venusian lizard men are particularly adept at water combat. By absorbing oxygen through the belly skin one can stay submerged for as long as an hour.

Habitat/Society: Venusian lizard men live in simple family and clan groups, working as hunters and gatherers in their vast swamps. Some of them have begun to improve their lives, using primitive agriculture to feed themselves, settling into villages with more specialized occupations, but this is still the exception and not the rule.

Earthman colonists, especially those from Germany, have taken steps to tame Venus and its lizard man natives. Some Venusian lizard men have adopted the ways of the Colonials, abandoning their primitive lifestyles for the values and material possessions of the Earthmen.

Ecology: Venusian lizard men are eager to trade their stone and reed items for valuable metal tools and items that won't corrode in the constant rain of their swampy homes.


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## freyar (Feb 4, 2008)

Hmm, more lizardfolk.  Start with a base lizardfolk?  These sound a little less intelligent but better at swimming.  What do you think?


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## Shade (Feb 4, 2008)

Agreed.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> When running, the Venusian lizard man prefers to use all four limbs, sliding along on his belly across the damp ground.




This gives us a chance at something different.  I remember another creature having an ability to run faster on all fours.  Must find it...



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Venusian lizard men are particularly adept at water combat. By absorbing oxygen through the belly skin one can stay submerged for as long as an hour.




Will hold breath suffice?


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## freyar (Feb 4, 2008)

Hold breath doesn't seem to last long enough.  Maybe if we go to something stronger like

Absorb Breath (Ex): A Venusian lizardfolk can hold its breath for a number of minutes equal to four times its Constitution score before it risks drowning.

Edit: Add something flavorful, like "The Venusian lizardfolk can hold its breath for so long due to its ability to absorb gases directly from water through its skin."


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## Shade (Feb 4, 2008)

That'll work.

I'll Homebrew 'em soon.


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## Shade (Feb 4, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

These guys lack claw attacks but have a more powerful bite attack.  This helps differentiate them a bit from standard lizardfolk.  Natural armor is also a bit lower.

Favored class ranger?

Leave Semuanya as deity, since no alternative was given?


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## freyar (Feb 5, 2008)

Wow, looks good.  Ranger and Semuanya sound good.  Do we just need to fill in X's and write flavor?  Did you find that ability about running on all fours?

125-250 lb?

Feat: Track or Power Attack?


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## Shade (Feb 5, 2008)

I can't find the bit about running on all fours.

How about this?

Groundslide (Ex):  The base land speed of a Venusian lizardfolk increases by 10 feet when moving on all fours limbs.

I like Track as the feat.

For skills, how about Balance 1, Jump 1, Survival 2, Swim 1?



> Combat: Venusian lizard men fashion their native weapons from the oma jolima, a reed-like plant of their native world. Javelins, harpoons, spears, arrows, clubs, axes, and maces can be made from the plant. Some Venusian lizard men have acquired firearms from the colonizing Earthmen, though ammunition is in short supply.
> 
> The oma jolima plant can also be formed into helmets and other armor. A Venusian lizard man so armored has an effective AC of 3.




How's this?

Reed Armor:  Venusian lizard men form armor from a reedlike plant native to their homeworld.  This light armor grants a +4 armor bonus, +4 Max Dex bonus, no check penalty, and a 10% chance of arcane spell failure.

Treasure was listed as "nil", but they have their reed weapons and armor and...



> Ecology: Venusian lizard men are eager to trade their stone and reed items for valuable metal tools and items that won't corrode in the constant rain of their swampy homes.




So maybe no coins; no goods; standard items?


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## GrayLinnorm (Feb 5, 2008)

Maybe you were thinking about the caterwaul.  From Tome of Horrors:

Increased Speed (Ex): The caterwaul can increase its base movement speed by dropping to all fours.  It can maintain this increased speed for a number of rounds equal to its Constitution score.  After that, it must succeed at a Constitution check (DC 10) each round to maintain its pace.  The DC increases by 1 for each check made.  When the check fails, the caterwaul cannot use this ability for 10 rounds and cannot move any faster than its base speed (50 feet).  It may run in either mode using the normal rules for running.

On all fours, the caterwaul's speed is 80 ft.


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## freyar (Feb 5, 2008)

Yes, I like the caterwaul version.  Just change out the names and speeds, and we're set.    Maybe let the Venusian lizardfolk move at 50ft when on all fours.

Skills, reed armor, and treasure look good.


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## Shade (Feb 6, 2008)

Sounds good.

Updated.

All finished?


----------



## freyar (Feb 6, 2008)

Think so.  We should tell Maxxx26 about these...


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## Shade (Feb 6, 2008)

Are the following worth converting?

Human, Earthman

CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any
FREQUENCY: Common
ORGANIZATION: Solitary/Nation
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
DIET: Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Semi-to Genius (3-18)
TREASURE: -
ALIGNMENT: Any
NO. APPEARING: 1 (1-20)
ARMOR CLASS: 10
MOVEMENT: 12
HIT DICE: 1
THAC0: 19
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-6 or by weapon
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Concentrated Fire
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M (6')
MORALE: Unreliable to Fearless (2-20)
XP VALUE: 35

Earthmen are, technologically speaking, the most advanced race in the Sol crystal sphere. On the other hand, when it comes to magic, they are the least sophisticated.
Earthmen are indistinguishable from other humans in Wildspace. An Earthman's specific land of origin can be determined by his dress, speech, and ethnicity. Earthman males tend to wear rugged clothing suited to their occupations, though females, especially those from Europe or America, tend to wear far less functional clothing in favor of tradition and style.
Earthmen speak a variety of languages, including all those found on the Languages of the Sol Sphere table.
None of these languages is spoken elsewhere in Wildspace. Spelljammers wishing to make contact will most often have to use magical or psionic means of communication.

Combat: Individually, Earthmen are unremarkable warriors. Many aren't even trained in the use of melee weapons, relying instead upon firearms. Earthmen from the Colonial powers (Britain, America, Japan, Russia, etc.) are generally armed with firearms. Earthmen from non-Colonial powers may have firearms, but the majority are more likely to wield melee weapons.
In organized groups, Earthmen with firearms can coordinate their fire to achieve greater results. Under the direction of an officer (who does not fire his own weapon), any group of 10 or more Earthman soldiers gains a + 1 bonus to their attack rolls and morale checks. Also, opponents suffer a - 1 penalty to their morale checks, since they are coming under devastating volley fire. If the officer is killed or leaves the vicinity, the modifiers are lost.

Habitat/Society: Spelljammers are most likely to come into contact with Earthmen from the Colonial powers where Victorian values dictate behavior. Essays on the Victorian age can be found in the SPACE: 1889 rules book.
There are also countless other cultures of Earthmen among the nonColonial powers. Some of these practice rudimentary magic (both clerical and wizardly).

Ecology: Because of their technological muscle, Earthmen to this date have been the dominant race of their own planet and begun colonization of Mars, Mercury, and Venus. They are the driving force behind an economic and military family (albeit a bickering family) of nations and colonies that extends through the system. The introduction of magic into this comfortably humming machine may indeed be disastrous.


-----------------------------------------

Personally, I think the only interesting bit is the coordinate fire, which would probably be better as a feat.  

Thoughts?


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## GrayLinnorm (Feb 6, 2008)

Since Earthmen (Earthfolk?) are humans, my vote would be no.

Actually, I'd rather see the phase jelly get finished.


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## Shade (Feb 6, 2008)

Sounds good.  Resuming the phase jelly...

*Phase Jelly*
by Greg Deckler

CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any subterranean
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Animal (1)
TREASURE: J, M, Q
ALIGNMENT: Neutral

NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 8 (tentacles 5)
MOVEMENT: 3, Br 1
HIT DICE: 4
THAC0: 17
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1-10
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-2
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M(4'-7')
MORALE: Average (10)
XP VALUE: 1,400

The phase jelly is a disgusting blob of sickly-smelling slime. Jellies can be any color imaginable, but a single specimen will be one color throughout. Each jelly has 10 tentacles, each ranging from 12' to 18' long.

*Combat*: The phase jelly attacks similarly to a marine ooze, its tentacles erupting from the floor, ceiling, or walls of subterranean passages. The jelly has the ability to phase into and out of solid stone, making these attacks possible. Although the tentacles secrete a noxious mixture that only causes 1-2 points of physical damage, creatures coming in contact with the mixture must save verses poison at +2 or become paralyzed.
The phase jelly has a far more insidious attack form. If any animal, human, or demi-human remains relatively stationary for three rounds or more in the vicinity of a hidden phase jelly, the jelly will attempt to slowly envelope its victim and phase back into the stone along with the victim's feet. This form of attack adds +3 to the jelly's attempt to surprise an intended victim. If the victim is surprised, the attack automatically succeeds. If the surprise fails, the victim can avoid the jelly with a successful Dexterity check. A victim who is phased into the floor with the jelly looses 8 hit points per turn he is in contact with the jelly and its acidic digestive juices.
The jelly is immune to acid and attacks from blunt weapons. Edged weapons cause only one-half damage. Fire, cold, and electricity cause full damage. In addition, electricity stuns any tentacles it touches for 1-10 rounds. A phase door or passwall spell will kill the jelly instantly if it is phased with the stone. Spells such as earthquake, move earth, rock to mud, or stone to flesh will force a jelly to the surface.

*Habitat/Society*: Phase jelly inhabits the darkest dungeons, usually lurking within the stonework and using its tentacles to sense the vibrations of passing creatures. Metal armor, weapons, and coins can be found in the vicinity of a jelly, as its digestive juices cannot handle these materials. These expelled materials often inadvertently create a trap for adventurers who attempt to greedily gather up the items.
It is a solitary creature and will not tolerate the presence of other phase jellies in its territory.

*Ecology*: Although the phase jelly can eat virtually any type of organic material, it is especially fond of drow. Phase jelly has no natural predators. Wizards have experimented with the jelly and its tentacles, but have found no useful spell components.

From Polyhedron #67 (1992).



Ability scores of other jellies:

Airjelly (S): Str 6, Dex 22, Con 28, Int -, Wis 1, Cha 
Ochre Jelly (L): Str 15, Dex 1, Con 22, Int —, Wis 1, Cha 
Shadow Jelly (L): Str 15, Dex 1, Con 18, Int -, Wis 1, Cha 1
Assassin Jelly (M): Str 15, Dex 15, Con 20, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 1
Flesh Jelly (G): Str 32, Dex 6, Con 23, Int --, Wis 1, Cha 1

Its Intelligence is given as 1.

So maybe...Str 15, Dex 10, Con 20, Int 1, Wis 1, Cha 1?


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## freyar (Feb 6, 2008)

Abilities sound fine.  Do we have any more information about how it "phases" with stone?


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## Shade (Feb 7, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Abilities sound fine.  Do we have any more information about how it "phases" with stone?




Nope, but I suppose we could modify meld with stone.


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## Shade (Feb 7, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Feb 11, 2008)

Let's try

Phase into Stone (Su): A phase jelly may, three times a day as a standard action (?), meld its body into stone as the spell, with the following exceptions: The phase jelly may move while phased into stone and it may also phase a creatures feet into the stone along with itself (if that creature fails a DC X Reflex save).  Any creature so victimized takes 8 hp of acid damage per round that it is phased with the jelly.  The jelly may remain phased with the stone for up to one minute.

The lists of spells that affect the phased phase jelly and someone using meld into stone are somewhat different.  Should we move this more away from the spell?


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## Shade (Feb 11, 2008)

Now that you've called attention to the spells that affect it, the ability almost seems more like a slow earth glide, eh?


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## freyar (Feb 12, 2008)

At first I thought that didn't make much sense because why would they need a burrow speed?  But now that I look more closely, xorn have a burrow speed, too.  So let's go with a modified earth glide.  Will write that up soon...


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## freyar (Feb 12, 2008)

How's this?  Not too wordy, I hope! 

Earth Glide (Ex): A phase jelly can glide through stone, dirt, or almost any other sort of earth except metal as easily as a fish swims through water. Its burrowing leaves behind no tunnel or hole, nor does it create any ripple or other signs of its presence. A move earth, earthquake, stone to flesh, or transmute rock to mud spell cast on an area containing a burrowing phase jelly forces the jelly to surface, stunning the creature for 1 round unless it succeeds on a Fortitude save.  A passwall or phase door spell cast on an area containing a burrowing phase jelly kills the jelly instantly unless it succeeds on a Fortitude save.

Phase Feet (Su): A phase jelly using its earth glide ability may attempt to phase the feet of a single creature into the stone.  If the jelly ends its turn in the same square as the same Medium or smaller creature for three consecutive rounds, that creature's feet become phased into the stone (a DC 17 Reflex save negates; the save DC is Constitution-based).  The victim is checked (unable to move) and takes a -4 penalty to AC (as if pinned).  In addition, the victim takes 8 points of damage per round from the phase jelly's acid.  The victim remains phased until the jelly decides to release it, is killed, or is forced out of the stone (see Earth Glide, above).


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## Shade (Feb 12, 2008)

That looks pretty good, although I'd rename "phase feet", maybe "enveloping earth" or somesuch?


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## freyar (Feb 12, 2008)

Sounds fine.  That was just my bizarre sense of humor...


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## Shade (Feb 12, 2008)

> TREASURE: J, M, Q




J:
3-24 copper pieces per individual

M:
2-8 gold pieces per individual

Q:
1-4 gems: 50%



> *Habitat/Society*: Metal armor, weapons, and coins can be found in the vicinity of a jelly, as its digestive juices cannot handle these materials. These expelled materials often inadvertently create a trap for adventurers who attempt to greedily gather up the items.




Standard coins; standard goods (gems and metal goods only); standard items (metal only)?



> Each jelly has 10 tentacles, each ranging from 12' to 18' long.




Split the difference and give it 15-foot reach with tentacles?

*Combat*: The phase jelly attacks similarly to a marine ooze, its tentacles erupting from the floor, ceiling, or walls of subterranean passages. The jelly has the ability to phase into and out of solid stone, making these attacks possible. Although the tentacles secrete a noxious mixture that only causes 1-2 points of physical damage, creatures coming in contact with the mixture must save verses poison at +2 or become paralyzed.[/quote]

Borrow from carrion crawler?

Paralysis (Ex): Those hit by a carrion crawler's tentacle attack must succeed on a DC 13 Fortitude save or be paralyzed for 2d4 rounds. The save DC is Constitution-based.



> The jelly is immune to acid and attacks from blunt weapons. Edged weapons cause only one-half damage. Fire, cold, and electricity cause full damage. In addition, electricity stuns any tentacles it touches for 1-10 rounds.




Immunity to acid?

Damage reduction x/piercing or slashing?

How's this?

Stunned by Electricity (Ex):  An electrical attack stuns a phase jelly for 1d10 rounds (no saving throw).


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## freyar (Feb 12, 2008)

Yes to all the above.


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## Shade (Feb 12, 2008)

Updated.

Damage reduction x/piercing or slashing (x=?)

Skills: 7
Hide 3, Move Silently 4

+x racial bonus on Hide checks?

Feats: 2
Stealthy, Weapon Focus (tentacle)

Challenge Rating: x


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## freyar (Feb 13, 2008)

CR 2 or 3?

+4 Hide bonus?

I like the skills and feats.


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## Shade (Feb 13, 2008)

Updated

A phase jelly can grow to a diameter of about X feet and a thickness of about x inches, but can compress its body to fit into cracks as small as 1 inch wide. A typical specimen weighs about X pounds.


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## Shade (Feb 15, 2008)

I just divided an ochre jelly in half which gave us...

A phase jelly can grow to a diameter of about 7 feet and a thickness of about 3 inches, but can compress its body to fit into cracks as small as 1 inch wide. A typical specimen weighs about 2,800 pounds.


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## Shade (Feb 15, 2008)

*MagiStar*
by Dale A. Donovan
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Interior of Crystal Sphere surface
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: See below
INTELLIGENCE: Genius (18)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: Irrelevant
MOVEMENT: Nil
HIT DICE: 8+8
THAC0: 13
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: By spell
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Spells
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Immune to physical attacks
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 100% to own school, nil for others
SIZE: G (size varies)
MORALE: Fearless (20)
XP VALUE: 6,000

MagiStars are extremely rare residents on the interior of crystal spheres which have "stars" present on them. Not every star is a MagiStar. As a rule, there are only eight (one of each school) on any sphere that has MagiStars.

MagiStars are intelligent collections of pure magical energy of anyone of the eight schools of magery. They appear as brightly colored fire-bodies with an unusual degree of activity. Flares, swirls, and even small energy whirlpools are not uncommon near them. Care should be taken by all on-deck persons to avoid being caught by one of these magical outbursts.
Most of the time, the greatest danger of being caught in a MagiStar's flare is the possibility of being knocked off the ship. The flares possess a degree of physical force, and this fact can be to the MagiStar's advantage if unwanted guests approach too closely (see "Combat").
Another troublesome aspect of too closely approaching MagiStars is the occurrence of bizarre random magical effects (pertinent to that MagiStar's school) that are noticed by the crew of a passing ship (see below).

The most important fact about MagiStars is that they are also "living gates" through the Sphere to the Phlogiston. Since they are immobile, spacefarers needn't hunt for a gate. Convincing a MagiStar to allow your ship to pass through the gate is another matter entirely.

Combat: When engaged in combat, a MagiStar can use any one spell of its school, at a rate of one per round, once a day. Unharmed by all physical attacks, including magic weapons, only magic spells can harm them. Spells from schools other than its own (and Priest spells) will affect a MagiStar normally, with appropriate saves. MagiStars save as 10th-level wizards. Spells from their own school are simply absorbed by the MagiStar, and this allows the MagiStar one extra use of any such spell per day.

As mentioned above, MagiStars' flares possess a degree of physical force, similar to a strong wind on a planet. A MagiStar can produce one flare a melee round, but cannot cast a spell on the same round it uses a flare. Under normal circumstances, the effect of a flare is identical to a gust of wind spell, although, technically, it is not that spell. When a MagiStar wishes to prevent a ship from approaching too closely, it can, once every 10 rounds, amplify this effect to be equal to a wind wall spell. Both of these effects act as if the MagiStar were a 10th-level wizard. Both types of flares have a range of l,500 yards (three tactical hexes).

In addition to these conscious attacks, any spelljamming ship's approach to a MagiStar can cause unpredictable magical effects to take place on board. Some possible effects include: all magic items onboard that are related to the MagiStar's school begin to glow, and continue to do so until the ship moves away; a sudden drop to tactical speed, or a jump to "normal" speed, via the helm; sudden fainting spells (save vs. spells to avoid) for specialist mages of schools opposing the MagiStar's; or a +1 level to any specialist mages of the MagiStar's school for the duration of the mage's stay within the MagiStar's area of effect. Any of these effects can take place when a ship passes within three tactical hexes (1,500 yards) of a MagiStar. All of these random effects should be relatively harmless, serving more as nuisances than as harmful incidents. The DM may choose from the above examples, or may create his own, original, random effects, keeping in mind the idea that these effects should annoy the PCs, not annihilate them.

Only two spells affect all MagiStars equally: dispel magic and anti-magic shell. Dispel magic will, if the MagiStar fails a save vs. spells, disrupt the MagiStar for 1d4 rounds. A disrupted MagiStar can cast no spells, but any random effects and flares continue. A disrupted MagiStar cannot be used as a gate. To cause all effects of being near a MagiStar to cease, an anti-magic shell must be cast about the ship, or between the ship and the MagiStar, allowing the ship to leave the area, and it causes all random magical effects and flares to no longer affect that ship.

Whenever a MagiStar is brought to 0 hp, it is incapacitated for 1d6 hours, during which time the gate will function. Otherwise, a MagiStar can prevent a ship from using its gate, by using its flares. Also, MagiStars serve only as one-way gates. Since none exist on the exterior of the Spheres, it is impossible to use a MagiStar to pass from the Phlogiston into a Sphere.

Some wizards, of various races, have on occasion tried to magic jar a MagiStar. This is normally fatal, since the sheer amount of magical energy that composes a MagiStar simply burns out the mage's mind and body.

It should be stated that even when a MagiStar is brought to 0 hit points, it is not killed (how can you kill raw magic?). The MagiStar will regenerate itself completely in the space of 24 hours, with no other harmful effects.

Habitat/Society: Solitary beings, MagiStars are philosophers, contemplating the movements of the worlds beneath them and how their magic school has effected events on those worlds. They are intensely interested in planetside events involving their school of magic; large battles, mysteries uncovered or solved, new items or spells created, etc. This is a source of pride for them, and may make negotiations for passage with them easier.

As residents living on the crystal sphere, MagiStars are also "living gates" to the Phlogiston. MagiStars can communicate with spacefarers via telepathy. Passage through the MagiStar may be purchased, but the price usually involves some magic item, spell, scroll, etc., related to the MagiStar's school. This item is then consumed by the MagiStar.

As each MagiStar is the embodiment of one school of magic, their personalities exemplify the types of mages that choose to specialize in that school. Most MagiStars are relatively secretive about their specific school of magic, as it is the key to their personalities, and is their prime point of pride.

Abjuration MagiStars consider themselves to be sensible, solid, and cautious in their dealings with other races. To many of the spacefaring races, they come across as cowardly, even paranoid. This personality trait can be used to the spacefarers' advantage, but the advantage must not be overly pressed, for if abjuration MagiStars feel too threatened, they could panic, and blindly attack the ship with flares and any appropriate spells. Once they do panic, it is all but impossible to calm them down (especially since most ships can't take that kind of punishment for too long).

Conjuration MagiStars have explosive personalities. They are short-tempered, overbearing, and often insulting to "lesser" creatures. Spacefarers must be prepared with scrolls or other conjuration-related magical items in order to appease their host and potential transport for their disturbance. Another thing spacefarers hoping to use the conjuration MagiStar's gate must possess is the ability to fawn and grovel convincingly.

Divination MagiStars are introspective, careful negotiators. They seldom seek more than information in exchange for passage. They do have the annoying habit of following any passage agreement they make to the letter. Space-farers must be masters of a carefully worded turn of phrase.

Enchantment MagiStars are self-centered and extremely vain. They are often over-confident when dealing with others. Spacefarers must be willing to sing the praises of any enchantment MagiStars if they wish passage. These MagiStars especially enjoy the talents of any bards aboard the ship desiring passage. But woe to the bard who sings off-key or even misses a single note while regaling the MagiStar of its virtues. Obviously, playing to their vanity is the key to success when dealing with these MagiStars.

Illusion MagiStars are very secretive, not very willing to give passage, unless the price involves some important secrets. They enjoy negotiating with allusions to some deep, dark, secret, making cryptic references to events or people unknown to the passengers of the ship desiring passage, forcing the ship's occupants to solve some puzzle or win a riddle contest to win passage.

Invocation MagiStars are greedy and acquisitive. Their spell selection allows them to be very confident whenever contact with spacefarers takes place. They will sometimes resort to extortion and threats of violence if they do not find the price for passage offered to be substantial enough.

Necromantic MagiStars are, naturally, very interested in death. They will take every opportunity to view it up close. Not much more needs to be said here, except that just about the only thing these MagiStars are good for is to eliminate some foe if said foe was to venture to within the MagiStar's range of effect.

Transmutation MagiStars are ready to converse with any passersby, and may not stop for months or years, holding a ship "dead" with its magical effects and flares. They are not unreasonable negotiators as long as the ship's passengers are willing to listen to the latest events on the third world of that system's latest fashions, the MagiStar's latest ideas on the theory of transmutation, or the story of the last passersby this MagiStar talked to (they still may be there), etc.

Once contact has been established, and if the MagiStar is inclined to negotiate, it may temporarily suspend its random magical effects and flares. Ships desiring passage generally stand a better chance of gaining passage if they can lure a specialist mage of the appropriate school to negotiate with the MagiStar; this is not always an easy thing to do.

Ecology: Almost nothing is known about how the MagiStars came to be, what causes magical energy to coalesce in such a manner, or what the MagiStars' relationship is to the crystal spheres they inhabit. One theory, completely unproven, states that the stars are the result of the phlogiston's friction against the exterior surface of the sphere.

Note that not all crystal spheres have MagiStars, but all of those that do also have an outpost or base of the Arcane within that sphere as well. What the relationship, if any, between the MagiStars and the Arcane is unknown at this time.

From Polyhedron #55


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## Shade (Feb 18, 2008)

Hmmm...Colossal Outsiders?

8 HD is awfully low for something of this size.  I'd recommend we either sufficiently increase the HD or make them tiny portions of a larger star.   Based on their spellcasting prowess, they'll be high CR, so I'd prefer an equivalent HD increase.


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## freyar (Feb 19, 2008)

I still need to read through the whole thing, but I'd have to agree that 8HD is too small.


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## freyar (Feb 20, 2008)

Hmmm, maybe even Colossal+, if we're allowed to use that size category.

I can see that these are going to be a bit weird to convert.  Should we make reference to any 3e Spelljammer rules?


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2008)

Colossal+ is in the SRD, so I'd say it's fair game.    

I don't think there's any official Spelljammer rules that would apply here.   Shadows of the Spider Moon seriously retooled the setting.


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## freyar (Feb 20, 2008)

Ok.  Here's an attempt at the SLAs.  Check what you think of the question marks!

Spell School Mastery (Su): A magistar may use any arcane spell from its associated school of magic once per day as a spell-like ability at caster level 20(?).  In addition, a magistar is immune to arcane spells from its associated school of magic; rather than affecting the magistar, the magistar absorbs the spell and may use it as a spell-like ability an additional time that day.


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## Shade (Feb 26, 2008)

That looks reasonable.

Let's try to come up with some ability scores for these things.

Although not incorporeal, they seem like they'd lack Strength.  If they are truly immobile, Dex is probably poor.

The closest thing I can think to compare them to is genius loci.

Genius Loci ability scores:  Str 50, Dex 6, Con 50, Int -, Wis 24, Cha 26.


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## freyar (Feb 27, 2008)

Wow, I should really read the epic monster section of the SRD.  

So drop Str to 6 like Dex and raise Int to 18-19?


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## Shade (Mar 4, 2008)

That could work.  Did we discuss how many HD to raise them?


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## freyar (Mar 4, 2008)

Don't think so.  How tough do we want to make them?  I'd say 20 HD at the very least.  Of course, the original might have had such low HD because of this:


> Whenever a MagiStar is brought to 0 hp, it is incapacitated for 1d6 hours, during which time the gate will function.



So maybe there should be some rejuvenation sort of ability?  Maybe we should guess a CR and then peg the HD to something a little on the low end for that.


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## Shade (Mar 5, 2008)

I think we may need to take a step back and decide how we'd like to handle these guys.

Since the core rules don't account for space travel or any of the Spelljammer elements, we may need to reimagine them.   If we focus on them being "intelligent collections of pure magical energy of any one of the eight schools of magery", we could simply make them free-roaming Gargantuan creatures.  We could add a sidebar mentioning that in the Spelljammer setting, MagiStars are immense starlike creatures that provide gateways between the Crystal Spheres and the Phlogiston and leave it for Spelljammer DMs to reconcile that with whatever converted rules they are using.

Thoughts?


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## freyar (Mar 5, 2008)

That's probably a good idea.  Though I still prefer Colossal+.


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## Shade (Mar 6, 2008)

Let's stat them up at Gargantuan and go from there.    



> Unharmed by all physical attacks, including magic weapons, only magic spells can harm them.




Immunity to weapon damage, or really high DR?



> As mentioned above, MagiStars' flares possess a degree of physical force, similar to a strong wind on a planet. A MagiStar can produce one flare a melee round, but cannot cast a spell on the same round it uses a flare. Under normal circumstances, the effect of a flare is identical to a gust of wind spell, although, technically, it is not that spell. When a MagiStar wishes to prevent a ship from approaching too closely, it can, once every 10 rounds, amplify this effect to be equal to a wind wall spell. Both of these effects act as if the MagiStar were a 10th-level wizard. Both types of flares have a range of l,500 yards (three tactical hexes).




Dropping ships from the equation, and focusing on this "lesser magistar" we're creating, how about:

Magic Flare (Su):  As a standard action, a magistar may release a flare of magical energy.  This functions as a gust of wind spell (Fort DC X negates).  Once per minute, the magistar can create a flare of greater intensity to create an effect identcal to a wind wall spell.  Both effects are caster level 10th.  The save DC is Charisma-based.



> In addition to these conscious attacks, any spelljamming ship's approach to a MagiStar can cause unpredictable magical effects to take place on board. Some possible effects include: all magic items onboard that are related to the MagiStar's school begin to glow, and continue to do so until the ship moves away; a sudden drop to tactical speed, or a jump to "normal" speed, via the helm; sudden fainting spells (save vs. spells to avoid) for specialist mages of schools opposing the MagiStar's; or a +1 level to any specialist mages of the MagiStar's school for the duration of the mage's stay within the MagiStar's area of effect. Any of these effects can take place when a ship passes within three tactical hexes (1,500 yards) of a MagiStar. All of these random effects should be relatively harmless, serving more as nuisances than as harmful incidents. The DM may choose from the above examples, or may create his own, original, random effects, keeping in mind the idea that these effects should annoy the PCs, not annihilate them.




We could create an aura that functions similar to wild magic, but only pertains to the specific school.



> Only two spells affect all MagiStars equally: dispel magic and anti-magic shell. Dispel magic will, if the MagiStar fails a save vs. spells, disrupt the MagiStar for 1d4 rounds. A disrupted MagiStar can cast no spells, but any random effects and flares continue. A disrupted MagiStar cannot be used as a gate. To cause all effects of being near a MagiStar to cease, an anti-magic shell must be cast about the ship, or between the ship and the MagiStar, allowing the ship to leave the area, and it causes all random magical effects and flares to no longer affect that ship.




Vulnerabilities (Ex?):  A targeted dispel magic or similar effect prevents the magistar from using any of its spells/SLAs for 1d4 rounds if the caster succeeds on a caster level check (DC X).  An antimagic field or similar effect suppresses these abilities (no check needed) as well as all the magistar's other spell-like and supernatural abilties, as normal.


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## freyar (Mar 7, 2008)

Oh, there's precedent for immunity to weapons, isn't there?  Let's do that.  The flare and vulnerabilities (I think I'd go Su, probably) look good.  I'll try to think about the aura tomorrow.


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## Shade (Mar 10, 2008)

Added what we've got so far to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Mar 11, 2008)

Boy, we've got some work to do for these, don't we.  Let's start with HD.  How about 14?  That's still on the low end for Gargantuan, isn't it?  I think I'd like to go on the low end and give them some sort of rejuvenation (over the course of hours), since that's what the original text suggests.


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## Shade (Mar 11, 2008)

Sounds good.  We know Int is 18.  Cha should be 19+ so they can cast 9th-level spells.  Wis is probably in the same general ballpark.

Str should be low, Dex average to decent, and Con good (since they were 8+8 HD orginally).


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## freyar (Mar 12, 2008)

Suggested stats: Str 6, Dex 13, Con 20, Int 18, Wis 25, Cha 25.  Just making up some numbers, what do you think?


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## Shade (Mar 14, 2008)

I plugged those scores into Homebrews.


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## freyar (Mar 14, 2008)

Let's try filling in some Xs.  Does CL 20 sound good for the spell school mastery?  Let's make the vulnerability Su (unless there's something wonky about that and the antimagic field).  DC25 for the CL check on dispel magic?

Also, let's add:

Rejuvenation (Su): There is no known way to destroy a magistar.  When a magistar is reduced to 0 hit points or would be otherwise destroyed (such as by having its Constitution reduced to 0), it becomes completely dormant for 24 hours, after which it returns to activity and full hit points, which all ability drain or damage restored.  If under the influence of an antimagic field at the end of the 24 hour rejuvenation period, the magistar instead revives the instant the antimagic field is removed.


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## Shade (Mar 14, 2008)

Sounds good.

The caster level check is 11 + magistar's CL, so 31.  I left it as an X since we didn't have the other X at the time.  Perhaps it should have been a "y".    

For the attack lines, shall we go with "-" or put "spell +x melee or spell +x ranged"?


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## freyar (Mar 14, 2008)

I guess the "spell +x melee or spell +x ranged" option collects the necessary information for ray and touch spells.  This brings up a different point: how is the magistar supposed to deliver a touch attack?  Bumping someone (so we need to give it a movement rate), or do we want to say those spells get turned into rays?


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## Shade (Mar 14, 2008)

An excellent question.

First, I think we should give a movement rate of 5 ft.

Second, its natural reach should give it a decent range for a touch attack.  For flavor text, we could say that it delivers touch attacks by forming a short tendril of magical energy or somesuch.


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## freyar (Mar 14, 2008)

That sounds like a plan.  These guys should get a pretty high natural armor, I guess, or we could go for something like deflection because they're all magical and all that.


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## Shade (Mar 14, 2008)

Let's go with deflection.

Shall we revise their function as portals to be gateways to other planes?

Alignment:  Always neutral?

Skills:  12 at 17 ranks
Concentration 17, Diplomacy 17, Intimidate 17, Knowledge (arcana) 17, Knowledge (history) 17, Knowledge (the planes) 17, Listen 17, Search 17, Sense Motive 17, Spellcraft 17, Spot 17, Use Magic Device 17?

Feats: 5
Greater Spell Focus, Greater Spell Penetration, Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Spell Focus, Spell Penetration?


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## freyar (Mar 16, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> Let's go with deflection.



You know, that's good, because natural armor would do nothing for them, since they're immune to weapons.


> Shall we revise their function as portals to be gateways to other planes?



Yes, we should probably leave that out (except in the notes about the Colossal+ ones) or come up with some alternative.


> Alignment:  Always neutral?
> 
> Skills:  12 at 17 ranks
> Concentration 17, Diplomacy 17, Intimidate 17, Knowledge (arcana) 17, Knowledge (history) 17, Knowledge (the planes) 17, Listen 17, Search 17, Sense Motive 17, Spellcraft 17, Spot 17, Use Magic Device 17?
> ...



That all looks good, though aren't the spells SLAs?  Do the Spell Focus feats apply to them?  I suppose we could alter the special ability to allow that...


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## Shade (Mar 17, 2008)

Whether Spell Focus can be applied to SLAs is an ongoing debate, but the latest version does seem to indicate no.   

I'm fine with either replacing those feats or noting in the Spell School Mastery ability that they may apply those benefits to their spell-like abilities.

How high of a deflection bonus shall we grant them?  Equal to their Cha (+7)?


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## freyar (Mar 17, 2008)

Hmmm, I could go either way.  Maybe give them Quicken or Empower SLA on two particular SLAs for each kind?  Probably easier to modify the Spell School Mastery ability just to say that they can take feats as if they are actually casting spells.

Maybe 2xCha.  Just equal to Cha would only give them AC 14, which seems very low.


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## Shade (Mar 17, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Hmmm, I could go either way.  Maybe give them Quicken or Empower SLA on two particular SLAs for each kind?  Probably easier to modify the Spell School Mastery ability just to say that they can take feats as if they are actually casting spells.




Since it only gets each spell 1/day, the Quicken or Empower SLA would be mostly wasted.  So let's go with the latter option.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Maybe 2xCha.  Just equal to Cha would only give them AC 14, which seems very low.




Sounds good.


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## freyar (Mar 18, 2008)

I think we're finally getting somewhere.  What else do these need?


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## Shade (Mar 18, 2008)

Let's work on the "living gate" part next.



> The most important fact about MagiStars is that they are also "living gates" through the Sphere to the Phlogiston. Since they are immobile, spacefarers needn't hunt for a gate. Convincing a MagiStar to allow your ship to pass through the gate is another matter entirely.






> A disrupted MagiStar cannot be used as a gate.






> Whenever a MagiStar is brought to 0 hp, it is incapacitated for 1d6 hours, during which time the gate will function. Otherwise, a MagiStar can prevent a ship from using its gate, by using its flares. Also, MagiStars serve only as one-way gates. Since none exist on the exterior of the Spheres, it is impossible to use a MagiStar to pass from the Phlogiston into a Sphere.






> Habitat/Society: Solitary beings, MagiStars are philosophers, contemplating the movements of the worlds beneath them and how their magic school has effected events on those worlds. They are intensely interested in planetside events involving their school of magic; large battles, mysteries uncovered or solved, new items or spells created, etc. This is a source of pride for them, and may make negotiations for passage with them easier.






> As residents living on the crystal sphere, MagiStars are also "living gates" to the Phlogiston. MagiStars can communicate with spacefarers via telepathy. Passage through the MagiStar may be purchased, but the price usually involves some magic item, spell, scroll, etc., related to the MagiStar's school. This item is then consumed by the MagiStar.






> Once contact has been established, and if the MagiStar is inclined to negotiate, it may temporarily suspend its random magical effects and flares. Ships desiring passage generally stand a better chance of gaining passage if they can lure a specialist mage of the appropriate school to negotiate with the MagiStar; this is not always an easy thing to do.




Here's a rough draft...

Living Gate (Su):  A magistar serves as a one-way portal to another plane.  Each magistar is tied to a single plane, and cannot change the destination.  Any creature or object of the magistar's size or smaller can pass through the portal, but only if the magistar allows it to do so.  Magistars generally require payment of a magic item or a piece of arcane lore related to the magistar's school as payment for passage.  A wizard specialized in the same school of magic as the magistar can often negotiate a reduced rate of passage.

If a magistar is reduced to 0 hit points, it continues to function as a portal, but can no longer prevent passage.  Travelers may freely pass through the living gate until the magistar revives (see rejuvenation, below).


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## freyar (Mar 19, 2008)

This I like.  Think we can use the personality section to tie the magistar's school to planar alignment?  There are 8 schools and 8 non-neutral alignments.


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## Shade (Mar 19, 2008)

Interesting idea.


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## Shade (Mar 24, 2008)

> As each MagiStar is the embodiment of one school of magic, their personalities exemplify the types of mages that choose to specialize in that school. Most MagiStars are relatively secretive about their specific school of magic, as it is the key to their personalities, and is their prime point of pride.






> Abjuration MagiStars consider themselves to be sensible, solid, and cautious in their dealings with other races. To many of the spacefaring races, they come across as cowardly, even paranoid. This personality trait can be used to the spacefarers' advantage, but the advantage must not be overly pressed, for if abjuration MagiStars feel too threatened, they could panic, and blindly attack the ship with flares and any appropriate spells. Once they do panic, it is all but impossible to calm them down (especially since most ships can't take that kind of punishment for too long).




Links to chaotic good plane?



> Conjuration MagiStars have explosive personalities. They are short-tempered, overbearing, and often insulting to "lesser" creatures. Spacefarers must be prepared with scrolls or other conjuration-related magical items in order to appease their host and potential transport for their disturbance. Another thing spacefarers hoping to use the conjuration MagiStar's gate must possess is the ability to fawn and grovel convincingly.




Links to chaotic evil plane?



> Divination MagiStars are introspective, careful negotiators. They seldom seek more than information in exchange for passage. They do have the annoying habit of following any passage agreement they make to the letter. Space-farers must be masters of a carefully worded turn of phrase.




Links to lawful good plane?



> Enchantment MagiStars are self-centered and extremely vain. They are often over-confident when dealing with others. Spacefarers must be willing to sing the praises of any enchantment MagiStars if they wish passage. These MagiStars especially enjoy the talents of any bards aboard the ship desiring passage. But woe to the bard who sings off-key or even misses a single note while regaling the MagiStar of its virtues. Obviously, playing to their vanity is the key to success when dealing with these MagiStars.




Links to chaotic neutral plane?



> Illusion MagiStars are very secretive, not very willing to give passage, unless the price involves some important secrets. They enjoy negotiating with allusions to some deep, dark, secret, making cryptic references to events or people unknown to the passengers of the ship desiring passage, forcing the ship's occupants to solve some puzzle or win a riddle contest to win passage.




Links to neutral good plane?



> Invocation MagiStars are greedy and acquisitive. Their spell selection allows them to be very confident whenever contact with spacefarers takes place. They will sometimes resort to extortion and threats of violence if they do not find the price for passage offered to be substantial enough.




Links to lawful evil plane?



> Necromantic MagiStars are, naturally, very interested in death. They will take every opportunity to view it up close. Not much more needs to be said here, except that just about the only thing these MagiStars are good for is to eliminate some foe if said foe was to venture to within the MagiStar's range of effect.




Links to neutral evil plane?



> Transmutation MagiStars are ready to converse with any passersby, and may not stop for months or years, holding a ship "dead" with its magical effects and flares. They are not unreasonable negotiators as long as the ship's passengers are willing to listen to the latest events on the third world of that system's latest fashions, the MagiStar's latest ideas on the theory of transmutation, or the story of the last passersby this MagiStar talked to (they still may be there), etc.




Links to lawful neutral plane?


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## freyar (Mar 24, 2008)

That all sounds pretty reasonable to me! Nearly done?


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## Shade (Mar 25, 2008)

Updated.  We're finally getting close!    

Telepathy x feet (or 1 mile)?

Environment: Any?

Challenge Rating: 15?  (They can theoretically use multiple 9th-level spells)

Treasure: No coins; no goods; triple items (all associated with magistar's school of magic)?

Alignment: Usually neutral?

Advancement: 15-28 HD (Gargantuan); 29-42 (Colossal); 43+ (Colossal+)?

A magistar is 50 feet in diameter, but is virtually weightless?


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## freyar (Mar 26, 2008)

I like all of that. Now I guess they're probably done!


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## Shade (Mar 26, 2008)

Woo-hoo!  That was among the toughest monsters we've converted.


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## Shade (Mar 27, 2008)

Hopefully this one proves easier.

*Grave Watcher*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Thmbs, crypts, graveyards, burial grounds
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Unknown
INTELLIGENCE: Exceptional
TREASURE: None
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: -2
MOVEMENT: 18
HIT DICE: 5-16
THAC0: 15 (5-6 HD) 13 (7-8 HD) 11 (9-10 HD) 9 (11-12 HD) 7 (13-14 HD) 5 (15-16 HD)
NO. OF ATTACKS: Varies
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-8 per attack
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Special
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Regeneration, immune to electrical attacks, edged weapons cause half damage
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Immune to mind-effecting spells
SIZE: M (5'-6')
MORALE: Fearless (19-20)
XP VALUE: 1,400 (5 HD) 2,000 (6-7 HD) 4,000 (8 HD) 5,000 (9 HD) 6,000 (10-11 HD) 7,000 (12-13 HD) 8,000 (14-15 HD)

A grave watcher looks like hundreds of tiny, pulsating lights -- a ballet of fireflies hovering over a grave or about a tomb. At any given time the lights are all the same color. However, the colors do vary from creature to creature, from white to rose to emerald green and shades in between.

The lights are not a part of the creature, but are residual bursts of energy that it constantly gives off. Some sages believe that the colors of the lights correspond to the creature's moods or strength. The lights effectively mask the creature, which is a black, vaguely man-shaped form with tentacles. The lights can also be distracting. Any characters viewing a grave watcher for the first time easily can become mesmerized by the light display. Such characters must make a saving throw vs. petrification at a -2 penalty or stand transfixed by the lights for 2d4 rounds.

The body of a grave watcher is made of thousands of small particles from the negative material plane that are held together by electrical energy. A grave watcher's hit dice determines the number of tentacles it has: HD-4 = # of tentacles. For example, a 5 HD grave watcher has one tentacle, a 6 HD, two; a 7 HD, three; and a 15 HD, 11.

Further, grave watchers have maximum hit points. This means a 5 HD grave watcher has 40 hit points, and a 15 HD grave watcher has 120.

Combat: A grave watcher only attacks if someone or something trespasses over a grave it has chosen to watch. A grave watcher has as many attacks as it has appendages. Each successful strike causes 1d8 points of electrical damage. In addition, if a struck victim is wearing or carrying more than 20 pounds of metal, the electricity has a scatter effect. All those standing within 10 feet of him suffer 1d8 points of damage from the electricity bouncing off of him (save vs. breath weapon for half). Please note that most metal armor weighs more than 20 pounds, and treasure often has a lot of metal in it.

For every 8 hit points of damage the grave watcher suffers, it loses one tentacle, and therefore one attack. Tentacles reform and reattach to the main body after four rounds (regenerating 2 hp a round); however, if a grave watcher's hit points ever fall below zero, the creature is slain.

Because a grave watcher is composed of small particles, edged weapons cause only half damage, as they pass between some of the particles. Bludgeoning weapons cause full damage, however. Magical attacks which are mind-effecting, such as charm person, charm monster, suggestion, etc. have no effect on a grave watcher. Electrical attacks harmlessly pass through the creature's body.

Grave watchers which have 10 or more hit dice can split themselves in two. For example, a 10 HD grave watcher can become two 5 HD grave watchers. This process takes four rounds.

Habitat/Society: Each grave watcher guards a specific area and will not allow intruders to disturb the dead or their possessions. It is not known how a grave watcher chooses a home, but it is rumored that one can be summoned to act as a guardian.

Only one grave watcher has been noted at anyone time. Sages theorize that when multiple grave watchers come in contact with each other they fuse to form a larger creature.

Ecology: Grave watchers perform a useful task by guarding the resting places of those departed from this world.

From Polyhedron #76 (1992).


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## freyar (Mar 28, 2008)

Huh.  Aberration (extraplanar) or Outsider?


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## Shade (Mar 28, 2008)

I could see arguments for either.   Undead isn't even completely out (think nightshades).


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## freyar (Mar 28, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> I could see arguments for either.   Undead isn't even completely out (think nightshades).



 True, but an undead in a graveyard would be so trite! 

I kind of like the idea of an aberration, but I'm willing to go with a majority on this one.


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## Shade (Mar 31, 2008)

I'm all for extraplanar aberration.

Swarm subtype?


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## freyar (Mar 31, 2008)

Given that they attack with their tentacles, I actually don't think so.  That would be cool, though.


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## Shade (Apr 2, 2008)

Yeah, good point.

Let's try to come up with some ability scores for this thing.

We know Int is 15-16.  Beyond that, what do you think?


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## freyar (Apr 3, 2008)

Tough call.  I'd probably go low Str, high Dex.  Cha should probably also be high-ish.  What about Str 5, Dex 20, Con 15, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 15?


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## Shade (Apr 17, 2008)

We'll give it a try with those stats, and can always adjust later.


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## freyar (Apr 17, 2008)

> Further, grave watchers have maximum hit points. This means a 5 HD grave watcher has 40 hit points, and a 15 HD grave watcher has 120.




On to special abilities!  

Healthy (Ex): When fully healed, a grave watcher always has the maximum number (8+ Con modifier) of hp per HD.


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## Shade (Apr 18, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Apr 18, 2008)

> Grave watchers which have 10 or more hit dice can split themselves in two. For example, a 10 HD grave watcher can become two 5 HD grave watchers. This process takes four rounds.




Split (Ex): A full healed grave watcher of 10 or more HD can split into two grave watchers.  The two new grave watchers may have any combination of HD that totals to the HD of the original grave watcher as long as they each have least 5 HD.  This process takes 4 rounds and requires the grave watcher's concentration.



> (regenerating 2 hp a round);



Fast Healing 2?


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## Shade (Apr 23, 2008)

Fast healing 2 works.

A slight revison to the split:

Split (Ex): A full healed grave watcher of 10 or more HD can split into two grave watchers. The two new grave watchers may have any combination of HD that totals to the HD of the original grave watcher, but each must have at least 5 HD.  Each new grave watcher has maximum hit points for its Hit Dice.  This process takes 4 rounds, during which the grave watcher may take no other actions.



> A grave watcher looks like hundreds of tiny, pulsating lights -- a ballet of fireflies hovering over a grave or about a tomb. At any given time the lights are all the same color. However, the colors do vary from creature to creature, from white to rose to emerald green and shades in between.
> 
> The lights are not a part of the creature, but are residual bursts of energy that it constantly gives off. Some sages believe that the colors of the lights correspond to the creature's moods or strength. The lights effectively mask the creature, which is a black, vaguely man-shaped form with tentacles. The lights can also be distracting. Any characters viewing a grave watcher for the first time easily can become mesmerized by the light display. Such characters must make a saving throw vs. petrification at a -2 penalty or stand transfixed by the lights for 2d4 rounds.




Mesmerizing Lights (Su?):  A grave watcher continually projects hundreds of tiny, pulsating lights, which are residual bursts of energy.  These lights project illumination equivalent to a torch, and provide concealment (20% miss chance) for the grave watcher.   Any creature viewing the grave watcher must succeed on a DC X Will save or become fascinated for 2d4 rounds.  This is a mind-affecting compulsion ability. A creature that successfully saves cannot be affected again by the same grave watcher's mesmerizing lights for 24 hours.  The save DC is Charisma(?)-based.


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## freyar (Apr 23, 2008)

Good to have you back again!

The revision to split is good, and I like mesmerizing lights.  I agree with Su and Charisma-based.



> For every 8 hit points of damage the grave watcher suffers, it loses one tentacle, and therefore one attack. Tentacles reform and reattach to the main body after four rounds (regenerating 2 hp a round); however, if a grave watcher's hit points ever fall below zero, the creature is slain.




Tentacle Growth (Ex): A gravewatcher has as one tentacle for each HD that it possessed over 4.  However, these tentacles disintegrate and reform as the gravewatcher loses and regains hit points.  For each 8+Con bonus (10 for an average gravewatcher) hp below maximum the gravewatcher possesses, the gravewatcher loses one tentacle.  The tentacle regrows when the gravewatcher regains hp.


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## Shade (Apr 23, 2008)

Updated.



> Only one grave watcher has been noted at anyone time. Sages theorize that when multiple grave watchers come in contact with each other they fuse to form a larger creature.




It looks like we need a "join" ability to go with the split.



> A grave watcher only attacks if someone or something trespasses over a grave it has chosen to watch. A grave watcher has as many attacks as it has appendages. Each successful strike causes 1d8 points of electrical damage. In addition, if a struck victim is wearing or carrying more than 20 pounds of metal, the electricity has a scatter effect. All those standing within 10 feet of him suffer 1d8 points of damage from the electricity bouncing off of him (save vs. breath weapon for half). Please note that most metal armor weighs more than 20 pounds, and treasure often has a lot of metal in it.




It looks like the electricty from its tentacle attack could deal splash damage.


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## freyar (Apr 24, 2008)

Join (Ex): Two fully healed grave watchers may join into a single gravewatcher with HD equal to the sum of the original gravewatchers' HD.  This process takes 4 rounds, during which the grave watcher may take no other actions.

Splash damage for the tentacles sounds like the best idea to deal with that.  Do we want to limit it to targets carrying 20lb of metal?


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## Shade (Apr 24, 2008)

How about limiting it to creatures wearing metal armor or carrying metal armor, rather than basing it on weight, which may be cumbersome to track?


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## freyar (Apr 24, 2008)

Sounds like a fine idea to me.


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## Shade (Apr 24, 2008)

How's this?

Electricity Damage (Su): The touch of a grave watcher's tentacle deals 1d8 points of electricity damage.  Additionally, it deals 1d4(?) points of electricity damage to all creatures adjacent to the target that are wearing metal armor or wielding metal weapons.


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 24, 2008)

Looks pretty good to me. 

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Apr 24, 2008)

Updated.

Its AC tranlates to 22.  We have a +5 Dex bonus currently.  We still need to account for 7 points.  A deflection bonus seems more appropriate than natural armor in this case.  We could give it a deflection bonus equal to 5 + its Cha modifier, which would yield +7 for a typical grave watcher.  Sound OK?

Damage reduction 5/bludgeoning?

Skills: 40 (or 5 at 8 ranks)

Feats: 2

Challenge Rating: x

Treasure: It said none, but I'm betting most gravesites have at least incidental treasure.  Go with standard?

Alignment: Always(?) neutral 

Advancement: x

A grave watcher stands 5 to 6 feet tall and weighs x pounds. 

Grave watchers speak x.

A grave watcher can be summoned using a X spell.


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## freyar (Apr 24, 2008)

Electricity damage looks good with 1d4 "splash" damage.

The deflection bonus sounds good.  DR is good.  Maybe half standard treasure, but let's note in the flavor text that it's incidental.  Always neutral.

Advancement: 6-16 HD (Medium) is what it looks like.

100-125 lb?  I went kind of light but don't have much of an opinion.


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## Shade (Apr 25, 2008)

Updated.

For skills, how about:  Knowledge (the planes) 8, Listen 8, Search 8, Sense Motive 8, Spot 8?

For feats, how about Ability Focus (mesmerizing lights), Weapon Finesse?

For the languages, we could borrow from another inhabitant of their home plane, the trilloch, and go with "Grave watchers cannot speak, but they understand all spoken languages."

Also, we really need to add this ability, common among Negative Energy Plane creatures:

Negative Energy Affinity (Ex): The grave watcher is affected by cure spells and inflict spells as if it were an undead creature. 


CR 4?  They are hard to hit and have hefty resistances, plus can render those that see them nearly helpless.


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## freyar (Apr 25, 2008)

Given that they always have max hp to start, I'd consider them to be effectively a higher HD critter.  I'd say CR 5-6.  What do you think? 

The rest looks good.


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## Shade (Apr 25, 2008)

Let's go with CR 5, since they can, at best, deal out 8 points of electricity damage per round.   They'd rock in a mixed encounter, though, since they can fascinate other creatures while their allies pound on them.

How about this for summoning them?

A grave watcher is treated as an outsider for purposes of planar ally and planar binding spells.


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## freyar (Apr 25, 2008)

That sounds like a good idea. Though who knows what they'll want in return!


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## Shade (Apr 25, 2008)

No kidding!

Updated.

Work complete?


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 25, 2008)

Looks good to me.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Apr 25, 2008)

Yeah, looks good.


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## Shade (Apr 25, 2008)

Scavenger Spirit
by Gary Watkins

CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVE TIME: Any
DIET: None
INTELLIGENCE: Low
TREASURE: Z
ALIGNMENT: Any neutral or evil
NO. APPEARING: 1-4
ARMOR CLASS: 0 or 5
MOVEMENT: 15
HIT DICE: 4
THAC0: 17
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1-4
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-6 per attack
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Paralyzation, suggestion
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Silver or magical weapons to hit
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M (5'-6')
MORALE: Average (10)
XP VALUE: 650

Scavenger spirits are similar to haunts. Their undead forms, are ghostlike, shimmering and insubstantial. In this state they have an armor class of 0. They can assume a semimaterial form at will, which gives them an armor class of 5. Scavenger spirits frequently take the form of what their living bodies looked like. However, they are able to assume any medium-sized form, such as human, demi-human or various plants or animals. These latter forms often are used to help them hide or to confuse their quarry.
In life, scavenger spirits were humans and demi-humans who profited from the dead. Most of them were grave robbers or camp followers who stripped those who fell in battle. A few were adventurers who ruthlessly and unthinkingly plundered tombs.
Now, in death, scavenger spirits are cursed to steal from the living. Scavenger spirits can pickpocket with a 70% chance of success. To do this, they must assume a semimaterial form. When the scavenger spirit has acquired an item of value, the spirit will flee to its lair and add the ill-gotten gains to its hoard. Characters who are successfully pickpocketed do not see the scavenger spirit.
The spirits are often, but not always, encountered in graveyards or ancient battlefields. Some take up residences near tombs filled with riches and over recent battlefields that have not yet been plundered. They long so desperately for the wealth carried by the dead that they will whisper a suggestion to passing humans and demi-humans to stop and take the objects left behind. Once a living person has acquired the wealth, the scavenger spirits are free to steal it. The spirits can use their suggestion ability once each turn.
When two or more scavenger spirits are together, they can combine their energies to cast a dig spell. This can be used up to three times a day. The spirits often unearth coffins or clear the way to buried tombs in the hopes passing adventurers will stop and loot the dead. The spirits will add a suggestion or two if necessary. Again, once the living have acquired the treasure, the spirits are free to steal it from them.

*Combat*: Scavenger spirits avoid fighting if at all possible; the sole purpose in their unlife is to steal. They attack only when they are in danger or if their hoard is threatened. In combat, scavenger spirits attack with their filthy claws -- up to four of them depending on the form chosen. Each claw attack causes 1-6 points of damage. In addition, victims must save vs. spells, at a -2 penalty, or be paralyzed with fear and disgust for 1d6 rounds. If the scavenger spirit is not involved in any other melees, it will loot the paralyzed body and return to its lair. Lawful good priests are immune to the paralysis touch.
Scavenger spirits must remain in their semi-material state during combat. The spirits can be harmed only by silver or magical weapons. They are immune to sleep, charm, hold, death magic, poisons and cold-based spells.
These spirits are turned as "special" on the priest undead turning table.

*Habitat/Society*: A scavenger spirit usually remains near the site of its death, though it is not constrained to do so especially if the location presents few opportunities to steal. Scavenger spritits are found singly or in small groups, each one of them driven by a compulsion to steal.

*Ecology*: Unlike most other forms of undead, scavenger spirits do not propagate their kind by slaying the living. A victim slain by a scavenger spirit simply dies. Scavenger spirits are only created when a living human or demihuman intentionally steals from burial places or battlefields. These thefts do not include simple acts like picking up a fallen soldier's sword. They usually entail repeated stealing of personal possessions and objects of wealth or importance that were purposefully placed with the dead.
Scavenger spirits hoard treasure and magic, though they have no use for the items. It is simply their curse to repeat the sins they committed in life.
Animals can sense scavenger spirits' unnatural origins and instinctively avoid them.

From Polyhedron Magazine #76 (1992).


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## freyar (Apr 28, 2008)

Incorporeal undead with some form of manifestation, I guess.  Big racial bonus to Sleight of Hand checks, too.


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## Shade (Apr 28, 2008)

Agreed.  Int is Low (5-7).  High Dex and Cha?  Average Wis?  

If we use the ghost as a model, it would have a Str score.


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## freyar (Apr 28, 2008)

I'd agree with a Str score, too.  Upon re-reading the ghost, it seems like these should have a more corporeal manifestation than the ghost.  What do you think?

Str 12, Dex 19, Con -, Int 5, Wis 10, Cha 16?


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## Shade (Apr 29, 2008)

Yeah, possibly so.

Those scores look good.



> Scavenger spirits frequently take the form of what their living bodies looked like. However, they are able to assume any medium-sized form, such as human, demi-human or various plants or animals. These latter forms often are used to help them hide or to confuse their quarry.




It sounds like a change shape ability.


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## freyar (Apr 30, 2008)

You know, I'd make this part of their manifestation ability.  Almost like a cross between alter self and disguise self. What do you think?


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## Shade (May 1, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> You know, I'd make this part of their manifestation ability.  Almost like a cross between alter self and disguise self. What do you think?




Perhaps.  Give it a go!


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## freyar (May 1, 2008)

Ok, we'll try this (modifying from the ghost)

Mutable Manifestation (Su): A scavenger spirit dwells on the Ethereal Plane and, as an ethereal creature, it cannot affect or be affected by anything in the material world. When a scavenger spirit manifests, it partly enters the Material Plane and becomes visible but incorporeal on the Material Plane. A manifested scavenger spirit can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons, or spells, with a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source. A manifested scavenger spirit can pass through solid objects at will, and its own attacks pass through armor. A manifested scavenger spirit always moves silently. A manifested scavenger spirit can strike with its touch attack or with a ghost touch weapon. A manifested  scavenger spirit remains partially on the Ethereal Plane, where is it not incorporeal. A manifested scavenger spirit can be attacked by opponents on either the Material Plane or the Ethereal Plane. Incorporeality helps protect it from foes on the Material Plane, but not from foes on the Ethereal Plane.  A scavenger spirit has two home planes, the Material Plane and the Ethereal Plane. It is not considered extraplanar when on either of these planes. 

In addition, a scavenger spirit may take on many appearances.  Usually, they appear as they did in life, but a manifested scavenger spirit may choose to take the form of any Medium creature.  This grants them a +10 bonus to Disguise checks to appear as (an incorporeal version of) any particular creature.

I also thought about making them semi-corporeal, but I thought I should run that by you first.  The claws sound like corporeal attacks, but we could do them as incorporeal touch attacks if you want.


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## Shade (May 2, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (May 3, 2008)

Any thoughts about whether these should be completely incorporeal like the ghost or get some sort of semi-corporeal property when manifested?

Also, I haven't asked, but do you want to make these a template?  We both seemed to assume not.


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## Shade (May 5, 2008)

Dunno about the first bit.  I always find these semi-incorporeal monsters to be about the biggest pain in the ass (second only to Astral creatures) to convert.  

It is funny that we dove in without considering a template.  Looking at them again, with the Low intelligence they might just work better as a standard creature.  Anyone have a strong opinion?


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## freyar (May 5, 2008)

Well, other than the AC change, there's not a lot to indicate that these need to work so much differently than ghosts.  After all, even if they stay incorporeal, they go from being completely absent on the material plane to hittable when they manifest.  We could just give them incorporeal touch with hp damage plus paralysis.

My first instinct is just to make these a regular monster, but I could be swayed.


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## Shade (May 7, 2008)

Since no one else seems to interested in them, let's just go with standard monster like our guts suggest.  

I'm fine with incorporeal touch with hp damage plus paralysis.

Shall we give them some roguish abilities like trapfinding and trap sense?  Maybe even sneak attack and evasion?


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## freyar (May 7, 2008)

Since they're incorporeal and can only steal from living creatures, I don't think they need the trap stuff.  But sneak attack and evasion would be good.

So we'll just keep them incorporeal as usual?


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## Shade (May 7, 2008)

Updated.



> Now, in death, scavenger spirits are cursed to steal from the living. Scavenger spirits can pickpocket with a 70% chance of success. To do this, they must assume a semimaterial form. When the scavenger spirit has acquired an item of value, the spirit will flee to its lair and add the ill-gotten gains to its hoard. Characters who are successfully pickpocketed do not see the scavenger spirit.




Hmmm...they probably need some sort of "ghost touch pickpocketing" ability, eh?

Also, a +8 racial bonus on Sleight of Hand checks?



> They long so desperately for the wealth carried by the dead that they will whisper a suggestion to passing humans and demi-humans to stop and take the objects left behind. Once a living person has acquired the wealth, the scavenger spirits are free to steal it. The spirits can use their suggestion ability once each turn.




Suggestion as a 1/minute SLA?



> When two or more scavenger spirits are together, they can combine their energies to cast a dig spell. This can be used up to three times a day. The spirits often unearth coffins or clear the way to buried tombs in the hopes passing adventurers will stop and loot the dead. The spirits will add a suggestion or two if necessary. Again, once the living have acquired the treasure, the spirits are free to steal it from them.




We can borrow the dig ability freyar came up with for a recent creature, or simply go with move earth.



> In combat, scavenger spirits attack with their filthy claws -- up to four of them depending on the form chosen. Each claw attack causes 1-6 points of damage. In addition, victims must save vs. spells, at a -2 penalty, or be paralyzed with fear and disgust for 1d6 rounds. If the scavenger spirit is not involved in any other melees, it will loot the paralyzed body and return to its lair. Lawful good priests are immune to the paralysis touch.




Stick with 1d6 rounds?   Do we keep the LG cleric immunity (I'm thinking "no").



> Scavenger spirits must remain in their semi-material state during combat. The spirits can be harmed only by silver or magical weapons. They are immune to sleep, charm, hold, death magic, poisons and cold-based spells.  These spirits are turned as "special" on the priest undead turning table.




DR x/silver?  (Incorporeality already requires magic)
Immunity to cold?
+4 turn resistance?



> Animals can sense scavenger spirits' unnatural origins and instinctively avoid them.




Unnatural presence like wraiths?


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## freyar (May 8, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> Hmmm...they probably need some sort of "ghost touch pickpocketing" ability, eh?
> 
> Also, a +8 racial bonus on Sleight of Hand checks?



Absolutely on both of these!  How about this?

Incorporeal Pickpocket (Su): A manifested scavenger spirit may make Sleight of Hand checks to manipulate material objects (for example, using Sleight of Hand to pick a character's pocket).  If the scavenger spirit succeeds in taking control of the object, the object becomes incorporeal, like the scavenger spirit, and the scavenger spirit may carry it to the Ethereal Plane when its manifestation ends.

Or we could look up the Spectral Mage from Magic of Faerun that I think uses mage hand or something similar to manipulate spell components.  I can't get to that book until tonight, though.



> Suggestion as a 1/minute SLA?




I think so.



> We can borrow the dig ability freyar came up with for a recent creature, or simply go with move earth.



After looking up move earth, I think I like dig better for this.  What do you think? (Dig was for the mole dragonet, I think, if you're trying to remember.)



> Stick with 1d6 rounds?   Do we keep the LG cleric immunity (I'm thinking "no").



Let's go with 1d6 round paralysis but negate with a Will save.  I think no on the immunity, but a cleric will probably have a good chance to make the save anyway.


> DR x/silver?  (Incorporeality already requires magic)
> Immunity to cold?
> +4 turn resistance?



Let's go with DR 5 since they're already incorporeal and tough enough to hit.  Yes to the rest.



> Unnatural presence like wraiths?




Something like that.  This doesn't quite sound as potent.  We could increase the range and reduce to frightened, like this, if you want:

Unnatural Aura (Su): Animals, whether wild or domesticated, can sense the unnatural presence of a scavenger spirit at a distance of 60 feet. They will not willingly approach nearer than that and become frightened if forced to do so; they remain frightened as long as they are within that range.


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## Shade (May 8, 2008)

I like what you came up with for the incorporeal pickpocket.

Here are the pertinent abilities from the spectral mage:

Corporeal Manipulation (Su): A spectral mage can manipulate material objects as a standard action. Its ability to manipulate objects is limited to what can be accomplished with a mage hand spell. This allows a spectral mage to use material components for spells and turn pages in its spellbook so it can prepare spells. The spectral mage needs to be in contact with the item to use this ability, so it must be touching the components it wishes to use in order to cast spells needing those components. This also allows the spectral mage to use magic items that do not need to be worn to function.

Item Link (Su): A spectral mage has a magical link to the items it carried when it died. It can sense the exact location of these objects as a standard action. Most spectral mages search for and gather their material possessions, guarding them to a paranoid extent.


Updated.


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## freyar (May 8, 2008)

Should we put some limitation on the Incorporeal Pickpocket?  Maybe that they are restricted by their strength like usual?

Item Link sort of makes sense, but since these are compelled to steal anything and everything, I don't think it's necessary.  

Should we put in the section about "ghostly equipment" from the SRD?

CL 4th for everything?


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## Shade (May 8, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Should we put some limitation on the Incorporeal Pickpocket?  Maybe that they are restricted by their strength like usual?




Hmmm...since incorporeal creatures usually lack Strength scores, that might confuse people.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Item Link sort of makes sense, but since these are compelled to steal anything and everything, I don't think it's necessary.




Good point.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Should we put in the section about "ghostly equipment" from the SRD?




We could probably just mention it.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> CL 4th for everything?




Sounds good.


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## freyar (May 8, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> Hmmm...since incorporeal creatures usually lack Strength scores, that might confuse people.




What if we say that "A scavenger spirit performing a Sleight of Hand check manipulates objects as if it were a corporeal creature of its size and Strength (Medium and Str 12 for an average unadvanced scavenger spirit)"?


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## Shade (May 8, 2008)

Perfect!

Updated.

Skills: Sleight of Hand 7?

Feats: 2
Skill Focus (Sleight of Hand), 1 more?  Maybe Ability Focus (paralysis)?


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## freyar (May 8, 2008)

I like the skills and feats (including Ability Focus).

Should we give this multiple incorporeal touches?  The original text said it could have up to 4.  It seems weird to give it that many due to taking a different appearance, but I think there's a case for giving it two.

Organization: solitary or guild (2-4)
CR: 4 due to the defenses?
Treasure: Not sure about the original text, but we should put a note that the treasure is often carried to its lair on the Ethereal plane.  (Incidentally, we need to put that pointer to the ghostly equipment.)
Advancement: 5-7 HD (Medium), 8-12 HD (Large)?
Speak one language they knew when alive?  Common?
And I'm not sure if these should be created or just happen.  What do you think?


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## Shade (May 9, 2008)

Updated.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Should we give this multiple incorporeal touches?  The original text said it could have up to 4.  It seems weird to give it that many due to taking a different appearance, but I think there's a case for giving it two.




Yeah, let's stick with two.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> (Incidentally, we need to put that pointer to the ghostly equipment.)




Where do you think would be the best placement for that?



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> And I'm not sure if these should be created or just happen.  What do you think?




Agreed.  These are very specific undead.


Also, I think we need to add in the incorporeal pickpocket ability that they can only manipulate items carried by a living creature.  Any suggestions on how best to fit that in?


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## freyar (May 9, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> Where do you think would be the best placement for that?



I think in the flavor section.  Why don't we take "They are cursed to eternally covet treasure, which they hoard on the Ethereal Plane" and just add "(see the "Ghostly Equipment" section of the ghost monster entry in the MM or SRD; the only difference is that a scavenger spirit's equipment does not have a material counterpart)."  What do you think?



> Also, I think we need to add in the incorporeal pickpocket ability that they can only manipulate items carried by a living creature.  Any suggestions on how best to fit that in?



Let's try this:

Incorporeal Pickpocket (Su): A manifested scavenger spirit may make Sleight of Hand checks to manipulate material objects in the possession of a living creature (for example, using Sleight of Hand to pick a character's pocket). This ability does not affect unattended, unclaimed objects, such as goods left in a tomb.  If the scavenger spirit succeeds in taking control of the object, the object becomes incorporeal, like the scavenger spirit, and the scavenger spirit may carry it to the Ethereal Plane when its manifestation ends. A scavenger spirit performing a Sleight of Hand check manipulates objects as if it were a corporeal creature of its size and Strength (Medium and Str 12 for an average unadvanced scavenger spirit).


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## Shade (May 9, 2008)

Sounds good.

Updated.

Double standard treasure?

Anything else?


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## freyar (May 9, 2008)

Definitely double standard, and it looks done.


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## Shade (May 9, 2008)

Next!

*SCORCHED ONE*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Desert
FREQUENCY: Very Rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
DIET: Nil
INTELLIGENCE: High (13-14)
TREASURE: R, V
ALIGNMENT: Neutral Evil
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 2
MOVEMENNT: 12
HIT DICE: 7+2
THAC0: 13
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-8
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Dehydration, spells
SPECIAL DEFENSES: +1 or better weapons to hit, see below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 10%
SIZE: M (5' to 6')
MORALE: Fanatic (17)
XP VALUE: 5,000

A merciless scourge of the desert, the scorched one is the undying remains of a human that succumbed to the oppressive arid climate. This undead creature draws its strength from the searing desert sun, and hates all living things that trespass upon its territory.

The scorched one wanders the desert in the tattered and weather-beaten remains of what it had in life. Its visage is burnt and cracked, and the body of a scorched one appears to be dehydrated in the extreme. They often wander towards desert caravans or adventuring parties, appearing to be a lone emaciated traveler. At a distance, they wave to the living and speak in a horse, cracked voice, calling for help. It is only when the potential victims are too close that their mistake to aid the "wanderer" is revealed.

*Combat*: Like many other powerful intelligent undead creatures, such as the lich and vampire, a scorched one will seldom engage in direct physical combat, as the spell-like abilities it has are formidable. However, if pressed, a scorched one will wade into melee.
In hand-to-hand combat, a scorched one inflicts ld8 points of damage with its powerful, burning touch. The more dangerous aspect of this touch is that it will dehydrate a victim unless the creature touched rolls a successful saving throw vs. death magic. If unsuccessful, the creature will begin to suffer from a type of heat stroke as its body dehydrates. The victim will suffer 1d8 points of damage each round, as well as being affected by insatiable thirst for the duration. This effect lasts 1d4 rounds. Multiple blows add to the duration of the effect.

The scorched one also possesses formidable spell-like abilities. The creature has the power to cast the following spells as special abilities once per day, at 14th level: continual light, sol's searing orb, and sunray. In addition, the following spell-like special abilities can be used twice per day, at 14th level: light, sunscorch, and insatiable thirst.

Due to the nature of their undying state, scorched ones are immune to sleep, charm, hold, and death spells, as well as all spells that affect the mind. The creatures also possess immunity to normal weapons; a +1 or better weapon is required to harm them. They are also able to regenerate 1 hit point every round, unless the damage comes from acid, cold, or water.

Unlike most other undead however, scorched ones are fueled by the oppressive power of the desert sun. They are immune to fire- and sun-based spells (even ones that specifically do more harm to undead), but suffer at the hands of cold or water-based attacks. Cold-based attacks do +1 per die of damage against them. Scorched ones save vs. water-based attacks at a -2 penalty, and if the attacks inflicts damage, that damage is doubled.

Scorched ones may be destroyed completely in only one way: total immersion in water. It does not matter how this is accomplished, so long as the entire body of the creature is immersed in water. If a scorched one is stricken down, and has not yet regenerated enough damage to rise again, it may be incapacitated by cutting off its head. This will render it immobile until the next sunrise, at which time its body and head will turn to dust and reform under the desert sun.

*Habitat/Society*: Scorched ones are solitary wanderers that traverse the desert wastes in search of intelligent humanoid life. Once the undead creatures find the objects of their hatred, they destroy without hesitation.

Scorched ones are believed to come into being when a human has been purposefully cast out into the desert, and dies from the intense heat and lack of water. The hatred of the individual towards those who cast him or her out is so intense as to cause the corpse rise again as a scorched one. The creature's hatred for one individual or group soon develops into a hatred for all humanoids, in particular humans. It then spends its unlife roaming the wastes, in search of a way to sate its hatred.

These undead creatures have also been known to track a caravan or adventuring company for days through the desert, studying the strengths and weaknesses of their foes. When the creature thinks it has gathered enough information and has the best tactical opportunity, then it attacks.

It is not known how a scorched one draws its power from the sun, which is the antithesis of most undead creatures. However, sages speculate that the creature's connection with the Negative Material Plane may be far weaker than most other intelligent undead.

*Ecology*: As with most other undead, the scorched one contributes nothing to its environment. It is a wandering ravager, killing all humanoids it encounters. It is a creature that the nomadic desert tribes fear more than the oppressive sun, and travelers often leave the desert as quickly as possible if it is rumored a scorched one was seen. The supernatural presence of a scorched one will cause animals such as horses and camels to become skittish and frightful.

It is not known how these creatures feed, although it is speculated that they draw their sustenance directly from the sun and sand. A scorched one has never been sighted outside of a hot, dry desert, lending further support to this fact.

Originally appeared in Polyhedron Magazine #136 (1999).


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## freyar (May 10, 2008)

Have to think about this one a little, but they strike me a lot like the drowned undead (are the MMIII?).  One thing interesting: "They are also able to regenerate 1 hit point every round, unless the damage comes from acid, cold, or water."  This sounds a lot like regeneration again.  Do we want to go the fast healing 1 plus vulnerabilities route again?


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## Shade (May 12, 2008)

Template or standalone?


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## freyar (May 12, 2008)

I think normal monster.  Any opinion?


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## demiurge1138 (May 12, 2008)

I second the motion.


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## freyar (May 13, 2008)

Just a guess at stats:  Str 12, Dex 15, Con -, Int 14, Wis 11, Cha 20?  It's going to need the high Cha for the SLAs.  I could see increasing Str or swapping with Dex -- I put Dex higher to account for some of the AC, and I think a lot of the damage might be fire damage rather than normal slam damage.  7 HD.


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## demiurge1138 (May 13, 2008)

I'd raise the Dex higher than that, personally. A lot of the SLAs are ranged touch spells, so a high Dex would be useful. Also, Weapon Finesse.


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## freyar (May 13, 2008)

You're probably right.  Dex 21?  That still leaves +3 natural armor.  Let's look at the SLAs, too.



> The scorched one also possesses formidable spell-like abilities. The creature has the power to cast the following spells as special abilities once per day, at 14th level: continual light, sol's searing orb, and sunray. In addition, the following spell-like special abilities can be used twice per day, at 14th level: light, sunscorch, and insatiable thirst.




continual light -> continual flame?
sol's searing orb -> searing light??
sunray -> sunbeam
light -> light
sunscorch -> sunburst??
insatiable thirst -> ??
Any ideas on these?


> They are immune to fire- and sun-based spells (even ones that specifically do more harm to undead), ...



Immunity to fire and immunity to spells with the light descriptor?


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## GrayLinnorm (May 13, 2008)

Continual light is indeed equal to continual flame.

Descriptions of unfamiliar spells, from the 2e Spell Compendiums:

Sunscorch (wizard)

(Evocation)
(Province: Flame) (this spell was originally from Al-Qadim)

Level 3
Range: 5 yds./level
Components: V,S
Casting Time: 3
Duration: Instantaneous
Area of Effect: 1 creature
Saving Throw: 1/2

When a wizard casts this spell, an intense blast of heat emanates from his hand, forming  a narrow beam that curves around obstacles and moves to follow its target, striking as unerringly as a magic missle.
     The beam bakes the target with 6d4 points of heat damage -- plus an additional 2d4 if the creature is wearing armor or physically touching any metal weapon or item larger than a sword, including a shield.
      The sunscorch spell does not require sun, heat, or even warm surroundings to work.  However, a wizard cannot cast it underwater or through water, including rain or fog.
      The magical heat of this spell affects living flesh only.  Undead or nonliving objects are immune, even if they're highly flammable or vulnerable to sunlight.  Thus a warrior carrying a skin of goat's milk can be cooked to death while the milk remains cool and unspoiled.


Sol's Searing is a cleric spell from the 2e Tome of Magic
(Invocation)
Sphere: Sum
Level 6
Range: 30 yds.
Components: V, S. M
Casting Time: 6
Duration: Instantaneous
Area of effect: 1 gem
Saving Throw: Special

This spell must be cast upon a topaz.  When the spell is complete, the stone glows with an inner light.  The gem must be immediately thrown at an opponent, for it quickly becomes too hot to hold.  The acts of casting and throwing occur in the same round.  It is not possible for the priest to give the stone to another character to throw.
    The stone can be hurled up to 30 yards.  The priest must roll normally to hit, with a +3 bonus to the attack roll and no penalty for nonproficiency.  In addition, the glowing gem is considered a +3 weapon for determining whether a creature can be struck (creatures only hit by magical weapons, for example).  There is no damage bonus, however.
    When it hits, the gem bursts with a brilliant searing flash that causes 6d6 points of fire damage to the target creature and blinds it for d6 rounds.  The creature is allowed a saving throw vs. spell.  If successful, only half damage is sustained and the creature is not blinded. Undead creatures suffer 12d6 points of damage and are blinded for 2d6 rounds (if applicable) if they fail.  They receive 6d6 points of damage and are blinded for d6 rounds if the saving throw is successful.
    If the gem misses its target, it explodes immediately causing 3d6 points of damage (or 6d6 against undead) to all creatures within a 3-foot radius.  It blinds them for d3 rounds (d6 rounds vs. undead).  All subjects are allowed a saving throw vs. spell, with success indicating half damage with no blindness.  The grenade-like missle table in the DMG is used to determine where the stone hits.
    The material component is a topaz gemstone worth at least 500 gp.

Insatiable Thirst is a wizard spell from Tome of Magic.

(Enchantment/Charm)
(Water)

Level 2
Range: 5 yds./level
Components: V,S
Casting Time: 2
Duration: 1 rd./level
Area of effect: 1 creature
Saving Throw: Neg.

This spell instills in the subject an uncontrollable desire to drink.  The creature is allowed a saving throw to avoid the effect.  If the roll is failed, the creature must consume any potable liquids it can find (including magical potions, which might result in strange effects if potions are mixed).  Although poisons are not considered potable, a creature might not realize that a liquid is poisonous.  The creature will not consume a liquid known to be poisonous.
   No matter how much the creature drinks, its magical thirst is not quenched until the spell ends.  During this time, the creaturecan do nothing but drink or look for liquids to drink.  Victims of this spell believe they are dying of thirst and (depending on their nature) may be willing to kill for drinkable fluids.


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## demiurge1138 (May 13, 2008)

Those immunities sound good, but should accomodate for searing light (which is, ironically, not a Light spell).

The SLA conversions would go better if we had access to Sandstorm, but we don't. I'm guessing through context that sunscorch is one of the weaker of its spells, so just fireball may suffice. The insatiable thirst we should probably write up as a unique SLA (nonlethal damage plus fatigue, fatigue can only be cured by drinking water?).


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## freyar (May 14, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> Those immunities sound good, but should accomodate for searing light (which is, ironically, not a Light spell).



Huh, strange but true.  Ok, let's add immunity specifically to searing light, as well.



> The SLA conversions would go better if we had access to Sandstorm, but we don't. I'm guessing through context that sunscorch is one of the weaker of its spells, so just fireball may suffice. The insatiable thirst we should probably write up as a unique SLA (nonlethal damage plus fatigue, fatigue can only be cured by drinking water?).




From GrayLinnorm's post (thanks, GL!), I'd almost say that sunscorch -> scorching ray.  It's just a little more powerful, which we can maybe make up by adjusting CL.  Sol's searing orb seems to be the acorn version of fire seeds but with some of the damage traded off for blinding.  I agree that insatiable thirst should probably be a new SU ability.

Ok, here's a *tentative* list of SLAs:
Spell-like Abilities (Sp): 2/day - light, scorching ray; 1/day - fire seeds (acorn only), continual flame, sunbeam. CL 14?.
We could trade sunbeam for searing light if sunbeam is too powerful.


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## demiurge1138 (May 14, 2008)

Sunbeam is powerful... you get a bunch of rays... but it's better for PCs than NPCs because it does more damage to the undead, oozes, etc. Especially with the fire seeds at CL 14th. This is going to be fairly high CR... we might want to adjust the AC and HD to match.


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## freyar (May 14, 2008)

We can also adjust the CL down to tone down fire seeds and trade sunbeam for searing light.  If Shade's back tomorrow, let's see what he thinks.  Anyone else have an opinion?


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## Shade (May 16, 2008)

Hmmm...we could stat the weaker option and add a "greater scorched ones" sidebar stating when during advancement they gain the more powerful SLAs.   Thoughts?


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## freyar (May 16, 2008)

I like that idea well enough.  What about

Spell-like Abilities (Sp): 2/day - light, scorching ray; 1/day - fire seeds (acorn only), continual flame, searing light. CL 7.

Insatiable Thirst (Su): Twice per day as a standard action, a scorched one can create an insatiable thirst in one creature within 30 ft.  The victim takes 2d6 points of nonlethal damage and become fatigued.  In addition, the victim must succeed on a DC X Will save or be compelled to search for a liquid to drink.  The victim will proceed to drink any liquid not known to be poisonous, including potions; this condition lasts for 10 minutes?  This is a mind-affecting effect.  The save DC is Charisma-based.

What do you think?


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## demiurge1138 (May 17, 2008)

I like the Advanced Scorched Ones sidebar. I would add that the liquid drunk will not actually remove the fatigue, or that the fatigue and nonlethal damage can only be cured by drinking at least 2 quarts (?) of fluids.


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## freyar (May 17, 2008)

Let's try this:

Insatiable Thirst (Su): Twice per day as a standard action, a scorched one can create an insatiable thirst in one creature within 30 ft. The victim takes 2d6 points of nonlethal damage and becomes fatigued; the nonlethal damage and fatigue cannot be cured until the victim has drunk at least 2 quarts of liquid. In addition, the victim must succeed on a DC X Will save or be compelled to search for a liquid to drink. The victim will proceed to drink any liquid not known to be poisonous, including potions; this condition lasts for 10 minutes? This compulsion is a mind-affecting effect. The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## Shade (May 19, 2008)

I'm getting ready to Homebrew this thing, and wanted to confirm the ability scores.

Str 12, Dex 21, Con -, Int 14, Wis 11, Cha 20?


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## demiurge1138 (May 19, 2008)

Sounds good to me.


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## Shade (May 19, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.



> SPECIAL DEFENSES: +1 or better weapons to hit, see below




DR x/magic?



> In hand-to-hand combat, a scorched one inflicts ld8 points of damage with its powerful, burning touch. The more dangerous aspect of this touch is that it will dehydrate a victim unless the creature touched rolls a successful saving throw vs. death magic. If unsuccessful, the creature will begin to suffer from a type of heat stroke as its body dehydrates. The victim will suffer 1d8 points of damage each round, as well as being affected by insatiable thirst for the duration. This effect lasts 1d4 rounds. Multiple blows add to the duration of the effect.




Touch attack that deals fire damage, plus dehydration?   Tie into insatiable thirst ability, or separate effect?



> They are also able to regenerate 1 hit point every round, unless the damage comes from acid, cold, or water.




As freyar mentioned upthread, fast healing with contingencies?



> Cold-based attacks do +1 per die of damage against them. Scorched ones save vs. water-based attacks at a -2 penalty, and if the attacks inflicts damage, that damage is doubled.




Vulnerability to cold and water?  Should these have the fire subtype, since they already are immune to fire and vulnerable to cold?



> Scorched ones may be destroyed completely in only one way: total immersion in water. It does not matter how this is accomplished, so long as the entire body of the creature is immersed in water. If a scorched one is stricken down, and has not yet regenerated enough damage to rise again, it may be incapacitated by cutting off its head. This will render it immobile until the next sunrise, at which time its body and head will turn to dust and reform under the desert sun.




Something like ghost's rejuvenation?



> Scorched ones are believed to come into being when a human has been purposefully cast out into the desert, and dies from the intense heat and lack of water. The hatred of the individual towards those who cast him or her out is so intense as to cause the corpse rise again as a scorched one. The creature's hatred for one individual or group soon develops into a hatred for all humanoids, in particular humans. It then spends its unlife roaming the wastes, in search of a way to sate its hatred.
> 
> These undead creatures have also been known to track a caravan or adventuring company for days through the desert, studying the strengths and weaknesses of their foes. When the creature thinks it has gathered enough information and has the best tactical opportunity, then it attacks.




Track feat and good ranks (and maybe racial bonus) in Survival?



> It is not known how a scorched one draws its power from the sun, which is the antithesis of most undead creatures. However, sages speculate that the creature's connection with the Negative Material Plane may be far weaker than most other intelligent undead.




Less healing from inflict spells?  Decent turn resistance?


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## freyar (May 20, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> DR x/magic?



I'd say so.  Maybe DR 10 for the normal one and DR 15 for the "greater" version in the sidebar?



> Touch attack that deals fire damage, plus dehydration?   Tie into insatiable thirst ability, or separate effect?



I think yes to all of these.  How do we want to do dehydration?  If it's just fatigue and nonlethal damage, we can leave it out and just go with insatiable thirst.



> As freyar mentioned upthread, fast healing with contingencies?
> 
> Vulnerability to cold and water?  Should these have the fire subtype, since they already are immune to fire and vulnerable to cold?



I think fast healing with vulnerability to cold, water, and acid.  Sure, we might as well give it the fire subtype; makes sense for these.



> Something like ghost's rejuvenation?



Yes.  We can just change the bit about destroying it completely.



> Track feat and good ranks (and maybe racial bonus) in Survival?



Agreed.



> Less healing from inflict spells?  Decent turn resistance?



How about 1/2 healing from inflict and +4 turn resistance?


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## GrayLinnorm (May 20, 2008)

If you're going to say that this creature gets less healing from inflict wound spells, then shouldn't it also take less damage from cure wounds spells?


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## demiurge1138 (May 20, 2008)

Not a fan of giving it reduced healing from inflict, but other than that, Shade's motions all make sense.


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## freyar (May 20, 2008)

GrayLinnorm's right about the cure spells.  I could go either way on reduced cure/inflict.


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## Shade (May 20, 2008)

I'm fine with dropping that altogether.  It was just a brainstorm...nothing I was really attached to.  

How's this?

Rejuvenation (Su): In most cases, it’s difficult to destroy a scorched one through simple combat: The “destroyed” scorched one will reform in 24 hours. Even the most powerful spells are usually only temporary solutions. *A scorched one that would otherwise be destroyed returns to its old haunts with a successful level check (1d20 + scorched one's HD) against DC x.* The only way to completely destroy a scorched one is total immersion in water.  Beheading a scorched one (either with a vorpal weapon or decapitation once it has been reduced to 0 hit points) renders it helpless until the next sunrise.

Do we need to retain the bolded bit?


For the vulnerability to water, we can modify this...

Vulnerability to Water and Wind (Ex): Ash mephits are particularly vulnerable to air effects and strong winds. An ash mephit takes half again as much (+50%) damage from spells or effects with the air descriptor, and are treated as if in gaseous form for purposes of wind effects. Additionally, ash mephits are particularly vulnerable to water, and contact with it (such as reaching into a pool or being splashed with a vial or bucket of water) inflicts 2d6 points of damage per strike. Complete immersion (including being caught in the rain or being subjected to a high volume of water, as from the geyser function of a decanter of endless water) inflicts 6d6 points of damage per round.

...to something like this...

Vulnerability to Water (Ex): Scorched ones are particularly vulnerable to water, and contact with it (such as reaching into a pool or being splashed with a vial or bucket of water) inflicts 2d6 points of damage per strike. Complete immersion (including being caught in the rain or being subjected to a high volume of water, as from the geyser function of a decanter of endless water) inflicts 6d6 points of damage per round.

Look OK?


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## freyar (May 21, 2008)

I like both of those, and I'm unsure about the bolded bit.  My first inclination is to drop it, but these things probably aren't quite powerful enough to warrant an auto-resurrection.  How about a lower DC, like 15?


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## demiurge1138 (May 21, 2008)

I like the level checks, ala ghosts. After all, ghosts can be quite weak and still get the auto-rez.


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## freyar (May 21, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> I like the level checks, ala ghosts. After all, ghosts can be quite weak and still get the auto-rez.



 I think we're agreed here.   And I just looked at the ghost; DC is 16 for ghosts, which sounds fine to me.  So let's just copy from ghosts for that.


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## Shade (May 21, 2008)

Updated.

How do we want to handle dehydration?   If we don't want to go the Sandstorm route, we could work something up from the horrid wilting spell:

"This spell evaporates moisture from the body of each subject living creature, dealing 1d6 points of damage per caster level (maximum 20d6). This spell is especially devastating to water elementals and plant creatures, which instead take 1d8 points of damage per caster level (maximum 20d8)."


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## freyar (May 21, 2008)

Well, I'm not familiar with what Sandstorm says, but I like the horrid wilting treatment (maybe at a 1d6 or 1d8 for water creatures) for dehydration.  It's got more kick than insatiable thirst in terms of direct damage but not the compulsion.  I like the variety.


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## Shade (May 21, 2008)

Like so?

Dehydrating Touch (Su):  The scorched one's touch drains moisture from the body of living creatures, dealing 1d6 points of damage. This drain is especially devastating to water elementals and plant creatures, which instead take 1d8 points of damage.  

We could also add the following to more closely mimic its original ability:

The victim is also exposed to the scorched one's insatiable thirst ability (which does not count toward the scorched one's daily uses of insatiable thirst).

Thoughts?


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## demiurge1138 (May 21, 2008)

Let's just stick to straight damage for the dehydrating touch.


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## freyar (May 21, 2008)

Agreed.  Let's leave insatiable thirst separate.


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## Shade (May 21, 2008)

Updated.

Skills: Survival 10, 5 more at 10 ranks
Bluff, Disguise, Listen, Search, Spot all seem like good choices

Feats: Track, Weapon Finesse (B), 2 more

Challenge Rating: 4?  They seem weaker than a mummy at CR 5.

Treasure: Standard?  (R,V look like standard to me)

Advancement: x


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## freyar (May 21, 2008)

Those skills seem fine.  

Ability Focus (insatiable thirst), either Persuasive or Power Attack?

CR 4 is ok.

Advancement: 8-20 HD (Medium)

In the special advancement section, we can drop fire seeds (since it already has that).  Give it sunbeam 1/day at 14 HD?  DR improves at 14 HD?  CL=HD always?


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## Shade (May 21, 2008)

Updated.

How about Skill Focus (Survival) rather than Persuasive or Power Attack, to help keep them excellent trackers?

A scorched one is 5 to 6 feet tall and weighs x to x pounds.

Scorched ones speak x in a horse, cracked voice.

A scorched one can be created with a _create undead_ spell cast by a xth-level spellcaster.


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## freyar (May 22, 2008)

SF sounds good.  100-200 lb?  the language they spoke in life (usually Common).  Ummm, 15th level?


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## demiurge1138 (May 22, 2008)

Hoarse voice.

Also, Common, Infernal, Ignan?


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## freyar (May 22, 2008)

Ignan is a definitely good idea, and I can see Infernal, too.  Why not add those two, as these things have the Int for the bonus languages?


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## Shade (May 22, 2008)

Updated.

All done?


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## freyar (May 22, 2008)

Pretty much, but you still need to change the horse voice to a hoarse voice.


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## Shade (May 22, 2008)

You mean these aren't the undead remnants of Mr. Ed?  

Fixed.


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## Shade (May 23, 2008)

*Avenging Spirit*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Crystal Springs
FREQUENCY: unique
ORGANIZATION: single
ACTIVITY CYCLE: hour of death (dusk)
INTELLIGENCE: high
TREASURE: Z
ALIGNMENT: Lawful Good
ARMOR CLASS: 0
MOVEMENT: 6, fly 12
HIT DICE: 10
THAC0: 14
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1  [Editor's note: No damage listed!]
SPECIAL ATTACKS: confusion, fear
SPECIAL DEFENSES: invisibility
SIZE: M (same as human 2 form)
MORALE: average
XP VALUE: 1,400

Avenging spirits are said to be the souls of murder victims whose assailants went unpunished in life. They are bound to a particular place, generally close to where they died. They may appear as far as a mile or two from the scene of their deaths for brief periods (a few minutes), but they can attack only when within 100 yards of their place of death.

As an avenging spirit, Sunshine's "duties" are two: to protect her family, and to avenge her own death (the town boys are now in their mid-20's). Ilmater has granted Sunshine an array of priest spells. With non-threatening strangers, she is likely to appear as a cascade of blonde hair, a disembodied voice singing sad, sweet songs, or occasionally as a swallow or kid goat. She will tease mortals with cantrips and use them with invisibility, ventriloquism, or entangle to have fun bedeviling them.

*Combat*: The avenging spirit will kill its enemies to have revenge or to protect its family. Its preferred method of destruction is the waterspout.  The avenging spirit will appear in one or more of her forms to help strangers in need. She will use ESP and detect lie to determine the alignment and friendliness of any she meets. Anyone encountering an avenging spirit must make a saving throw vs spell or flee in terror for 2d12 rounds before recovering. There is a 50% chance that a fleeing victim will drop whatever he or she carries.

An avenging spirit is struck only by blessed or magical weapons. A priest may turn an avenging spirit as a specter.

*Ecology*: Avenging spirits do not eat, drink, nor breathe. They are undead.

*Spells*: _animal friendship, entangle, speak with animals, heat metal, charm person, continual light, plant growth, detect lie, call woodland creatures, raise/lower water, control winds_ (specifically a waterspout, winds 55-72 mph), _magic font, confusion, sunray, stonebirds_*

* new spell

*Stonebirds*: (Alteration)

Level: 3rd
Range: special
Components: V, S
Duration: special,
Casting Time: 4
Area of Effect: 2d10 birds
Saving throw: none

When cast, this spell summons 2d10 birds, which are transformed into living stone. The birds are under the control of the caster and retain all of their avian abilities. Each stone bird is treated as a 1 HD creature with a THAC0 of 19. A stone bird has four hit points and inflicts 1d4 points of damage with each successful packing attack.

Stone birds can be directed to fly into a target. If the bird successfully strikes a target, it inflicts 2d8 points of damage and dies.

Birds remain in their stone form for 10 minutes per level of the caster, or until they are killed. At the end of the spell's duration, the birds are no longer under the caster's control.

Originally appeared in Polyhedron #91 (1994).


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## freyar (May 23, 2008)

Interesting.  Sort of like an LG revenant, but tied to a location rather than a person.  

Template or monster?  I'd lean toward monster, just because this almost seems like a unique critter.

Incorporeal with manifestation, maybe the mutable kind like the scavenger spirit.  All those SLAs and some kind of fear effect (maybe a frightful presence or a gaze).


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## Shade (May 28, 2008)

Tough call.  The wording sounds like a template, but the sample creature is very unique.

I'm leaning toward unique.


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## freyar (May 28, 2008)

Yeah, I think so too.  What do you think about the mutable manifestation?

Regarding SLAs, I could almost see these casting as adepts or clerics instead of having SLAs.  Any thoughts?


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## Shade (Jun 4, 2008)

The line "Ilmater has granted Sunshine an array of priest spells" convinced me to your suggestion of using clerical spellcasting rather than just SLAs.

I'm not really convinced that they need to manifest.  They seem more like spectres to me.  What am I missing?


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## freyar (Jun 5, 2008)

I see what you mean about manifestation.  Incorporeal but not ethereal.  I think I got a little confused due to the other undead we've been converting.  However, I do think these should have some kind of "alter self" type of ability.

For casting, maybe like a 9th-10th level cleric (some of the spells listed are 5th level in 3.5).  Use the list above to start the "typical spells prepared" list?  One trick is that she could only get some of those spells through domains, and Ilmater doesn't have all of the necessary domains.  For reference, his domains are Good, Healing, Law, Strength, and Suffering (from FRCS).  I'm not sure how much we care about that precisely, though.  What do you think?


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## Shade (Jun 5, 2008)

Int is the same as a spectre.  Shall we use the spectre's other ability scores?


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## freyar (Jun 6, 2008)

How about we bump Wis and drop Cha to improve the spell DCs?

Also, +2 turn resistance, like spectre.


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## Shade (Jun 11, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

AC translates to 20.  We'll need to either bump Dex and Cha, add a sacred bonus, or use the typical spells prepared list to include some AC-boosting spells.

Another thought:  Do we want to make these deathless rather than undead?


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## Echohawk (Jun 11, 2008)

Yes! D&D needs more deathless


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## Shade (Jun 12, 2008)

So be it...updated to deathless.


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## freyar (Jun 13, 2008)

Sounds fine with me, but where is the deathless type found?

Let's bump Dex to 18 and Cha to 19.  Then we still have room for a +2 sacred bonus to AC.  Sound about right?

Do we still need turn resistance now that they are deathless?

Regarding domains: what if we just say 2 domains from its deity's list?  We could use Law and Good as the defaults.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 14, 2008)

Deathless is in the Book of Exalted Deeds and the Eberron Campaign Setting. Basically, if you reverse all the references to positive and negative energy, you've got a deathless. 

I think the idea is bollocks myself, since Negative Energy is neutral, but undead = evil is, for better or worse, ingrained into the game these days.


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## Shade (Jun 16, 2008)

I wish undead were divorced from negative energy/evil as a default, and instead were powered by either negative or positive energy, depending upon the type.   Maybe Pathfinder will go this route.

In the meantime, deathless is our best bet.

Updated.


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## freyar (Jun 16, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> I wish undead were divorced from negative energy/evil as a default, and instead were powered by either negative or positive energy, depending upon the type.   Maybe Pathfinder will go this route.




Maybe you should suggest that.



> An avenging spirit is struck only by blessed or magical weapons.



Since they're incorporeal, that already takes care of the magical part.  Do we also want to give them DR X/evil?


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## Shade (Jun 17, 2008)

Sure.  10/evil?

Shall we make stonebirds a unique spell-like ability?


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## freyar (Jun 18, 2008)

DR 10 sounds ok.  

Unique Sp sounds good, too, unless you feel like writing the spell.


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## Shade (Jun 18, 2008)

Here's a rough draft of the ability...

Stonebirds (Sp):  Once(?) per day, an avenging spirit can call forth 2d10 birds of living stone.  These birds remain for 1 hour or until destroyed.   This is the equivalent of a 3rd-level spell.  Stonebirds have the following statistics.

Stonebird:  Diminuitive Construct; HD 1d10 (5 hp); Init +2; Spd 10 ft., fly 40 ft. (average); AC 17 (touch 16, flat-footed 15); Base Atk +0; Grp -17; Atk bite +0 melee (1d4); Full Atk bite +0 melee (1d4); Space/Reach: 1 ft./0 ft.; SA explode; SQ construct traits; AL N; SV Fort +0, Ref +2, Will +0; Str 10, Dex 15, Con -, Int -, Wis 11, Cha 1.
Explode (Su):  A stonebird that successfully hits a target may be commanded to detonate, dealing an additional 1d4 points of piercing damage.  This destroys the stonebird.


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## freyar (Jun 20, 2008)

I think that's pretty good.  Once a day is probably enough, given the rest of the spell casting.


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## Shade (Jun 20, 2008)

Updated.



> SPECIAL ATTACKS: confusion, fear
> SPECIAL DEFENSES: invisibility
> 
> 
> ...


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## freyar (Jun 24, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> We need to reproduce one of those "bound to place" abilities.



Something like a dryad or similar fey?  Or there are probably similarly bound undead.  (Or is it the Divine Guardian Template in Advanced Bestiary?)



> Thoughts on the "alternate forms"?



Since it has invisibility, how about the ability to select how much is invisible?  So her hair, say, could be visible?  Though that doesn't really work for the animal forms.  Could just do alternate form.



> Since some of those spells aren't on the cleric or her domain lists, I'd suggest making them SLAs.



Sure.


> Fear Aura? Frightful presence?



I think a fear aura.  Maybe duplicating the fear spell?


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## Shade (Jun 25, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Something like a dryad or similar fey?  Or there are probably similarly bound undead.  (Or is it the Divine Guardian Template in Advanced Bestiary?)




The bridge haunts in MMV come to mind.

Bridge Dependent (Su): Each bridge haunt is mystically bound to a single bridge and cannot stray more than 1,000 feet from it. If somehow forced to do so, a bridge haunt is instantly destroyed.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Since it has invisibility, how about the ability to select how much is invisible?  So her hair, say, could be visible?  Though that doesn't really work for the animal forms.  Could just do alternate form.




I like the partial invisibility.  Perhaps its concealment is reduced when it chooses to do so?



> I think a fear aura.  Maybe duplicating the fear spell?




Sure.  We can borrow from this...

Fear Aura (Su): A pit fiend can radiate a 20-foot-radius fear aura as a free action. A creature in the area must succeed on a DC 27 Will save or be affected as though by a fear spell (caster level 18th). A creature that successfully saves cannot be affected again by the same pit fiend’s aura for 24 hours. Other devils are immune to the aura. The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## freyar (Jun 27, 2008)

Shade said:


> The bridge haunts in MMV come to mind.
> 
> Bridge Dependent (Su): Each bridge haunt is mystically bound to a single bridge and cannot stray more than 1,000 feet from it. If somehow forced to do so, a bridge haunt is instantly destroyed.



I see you did something like this for the birch spirit, too.  Want to stick to 1000 ft for this one? (The original text gave 100 yards.)



> I like the partial invisibility.  Perhaps its concealment is reduced when it chooses to do so?



Sure, maybe just concealment (20% miss chance) vs total concealment?  Also, to do the animals, we could give them silent or minor image as an at will SLA.



> Sure.  We can borrow from this...
> 
> Fear Aura (Su): A pit fiend can radiate a 20-foot-radius fear aura as a free action. A creature in the area must succeed on a DC 27 Will save or be affected as though by a fear spell (caster level 18th). A creature that successfully saves cannot be affected again by the same pit fiend’s aura for 24 hours. Other devils are immune to the aura. The save DC is Charisma-based.




Sounds good, just change the numbers (CL 10, I guess, maybe 10 ft range?).


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## Shade (Jun 30, 2008)

freyar said:


> I see you did something like this for the birch spirit, too.  Want to stick to 1000 ft for this one? (The original text gave 100 yards.)




Sure, sounds good.



freyar said:


> Sure, maybe just concealment (20% miss chance) vs total concealment?  Also, to do the animals, we could give them silent or minor image as an at will SLA.




Good suggestions.



freyar said:


> Sounds good, just change the numbers (CL 10, I guess, maybe 10 ft range?).




Let's go with CL 10, but keep the 20 foot radius.


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## freyar (Jun 30, 2008)

Sounds good to me.  

For the touch attack, maybe 1d6+Cha holy/sacred/exalted/whatever-it's-called damage?

Skills are 6 at 13 ranks: Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge (local), Knowledge (religion)?


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## Shade (Jun 30, 2008)

Many undead don't even specify the damage type of the incorporeal touch, so we probably needn't worry.

Here's an attempt at the invisibility:

Natural Invisibility (Su): This ability is constant, allowing an avenging spirit to remain invisible even when attacking. This ability is inherent and not subject to the invisibility purge spell.  An avenging spirit can choose to become fully visible or even partially invisible (which provides only concealment), often making only its golden hair or disembodied eyes visible.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 1, 2008)

Natural invisibility looks good!


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## Shade (Jul 1, 2008)

> Its preferred method of destruction is the waterspout.






> : control winds (specifically a waterspout, winds 55-72 mph)




Control winds doesn't have a particular "waterspout" function.

For that speed range, we get this:
"A windstorm (51+ mph) drives most flying creatures from the skies, uproots small trees, knocks down light wooden structures, tears off roofs, and endangers ships."

Do we want to come up with something unique, or simply ditch the "waterspout" terminology?

Maybe there's something in Stormwrack regarding waterspouts?


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## freyar (Jul 2, 2008)

Natural invisibility is just what I was going for.

Is control winds focused enough really to target and/or destroy a particular creature?  If not, maybe we should go with a unique ability.  From a read-through, I think it looks ok, so I'd say just leave control winds and drop the "waterspout."

For the SLAs: at will - silent image, calm animals, speak with animals, charm person; 3/day - minor image, entangle, plant growth; 1/day - confusion, heat metal, sunbeam, SNA IV ?


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## Shade (Jul 2, 2008)

Here are a few spells I found that we might use for inspiration:

Water Burst (Drag 285)
Evocation 
Level: Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V,S
Casting Time: 1 Action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: Stream of water
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes

A high-pressure stream of water shoots from your hand at one target. You must succeed at a ranged touch attack to hit your target. The water inflicts 1d6 points of damage per level of the caster (maximum 5d6). This spell can also be used to extinguish one flame of Small size or smaller (such as a campfire).

Waterspout (SC, SW, CD)
Conjuration (Creation)[Water]
Level: Drd 7, Ocean 7
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Effect: Cylinder (5-ft.-radius, 80 ft. high)
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: Reflex negates
Spell Resistance: No

Water whirls into th eair, swirling upward with a thunderous noise like a tornado of fluid.

Waterspout causes water to rise up into a whirling, cylindrical column. You can direct the movement of the waterspout as a move action.

A waterspout moves at a speed of 30 feet. You can concentrate on controlling the waterspout's every movement or specify a simple program, such as move straight ahead, zigzag, circle, or the like. Directing a waterspout's movement or changing its programmed movement is a move action for you. A waterspout always moves during your turn in the initiative order. If the waterspout exceeds the spell's range, it collapses and the spell ends.

A waterspout batters creatures and objects it touches, and it often sucks them up. Any creature or object that comes in contact with it must succeed on a Reflex save or take 3d8 points of damage. Medium or smaller creatures who fail their saves are sucked into the spout and held suspended in its powerful currents taking 2d6 poitns of damage each round (no save). Trapped creatures remain inside for 1d3 rounds before the waterspout ejects them out the top of the spout, and they fall back to the surface (taking 8d6 points of falling damage) 1d8x5 feet from the base of the waterspout.

Waterborne creatures or objects within 10 feet of the spout (below and on all sides) also must make successful Reflex saves or be sucked into the spout if they are Medium or smaller. Anything sucked into the spout takes 3d8 points of damage and is then trapped for 1d3 rounds as explained above.

Only the smallest of watercraft, such as canoes, kayaks, or coracles can be sucked into the spout. The occupant of any such craft can make a Profession (sailor) check instead of a Reflex save if it so chooses to avoid being sucked up.


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## freyar (Jul 3, 2008)

Well, waterspout as written seems a little too powerful.  Frankly, neither of these seem really to have the right flavor (did she live near a body of water in the adventure?), but maybe I could be persuaded otherwise.


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## Shade (Jul 3, 2008)

I think water burst is closer to the spirit of the original (kill her foes with water).

I also found this:

Water Jet (Sp): As a standard action, a water grue can create a tremendously powerful 30-foot line of water. Any creature in the area of the line takes 2d6 points of damage (Reflex DC 11 negates). A creature failing the saving throw must succeed on a Strength check or a Balance check (DC 5 + damage dealt) or be knocked prone by the force of the blast. This is the equivalent of a 2nd-level spell.


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## freyar (Jul 3, 2008)

Pretty similar to water burst, I think.  Let's adapt the water jet, since it seems pretty reasonable.  I'd be fine with just replacing water grue -> avenging spirit and changing to the correct Ref DC.  Maybe the Balance check should be 10+damage, but this seems good to me.


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## Shade (Jul 3, 2008)

Like so?

Water Jet (Sp): As a standard action, an avenging spirit can create a tremendously powerful 30-foot line of water. Any creature in the area of the line takes 2d6 points of damage (Reflex DC 16 negates). A creature failing the saving throw must succeed on a Strength check or a Balance check (DC 10 + damage dealt) or be knocked prone by the force of the blast. This is the equivalent of a 2nd-level spell.

Or should we change it to a Su ability, and make it Cha-based (increasing the DC to 19 in the process)?


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## freyar (Jul 3, 2008)

Yeah, let's switch to Su.  Shall we do the spell list next?


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## Shade (Jul 3, 2008)

Sure.

Spells: An avenging spirit can cast divine spells as a 10th-level cleric. An avenging spirit has access to two domains from its deity's list. The save DCs are Wisdom-based.

Typical Cleric Spells Prepared (6/4+1/4+1/3+1/3+1/2+1; save DC 14 + spell level): 0--x; 1st--x; 2nd--x; 3rd--daylight; 4th--control water, discern lies; 5th--x. 
*Domain spell. Domains: Good, Law.


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## freyar (Jul 3, 2008)

0th - Mending, Guidance, Cure Minor Wounds x2, Resistance x2
1st - Command, Divine Favor, Doom, Remove Fear; Protection from Evil
...


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## Shade (Jul 7, 2008)

Building on that...

0th - cure minor wounds x2, guidance, mending, resistance x2
1st - command, divine favor, doom, protection from evil*, remove fear 
2nd - aid*, cure moderate wounds, eagle's splendor, hold person, silence
3rd - daylight, dispel magic, magic circle against chaos*, searing light
4th - control water, cure critical wounds, discern lies, holy smite*
5th - dispel evil*, flame strike, mark of justice
*Domain spell


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## freyar (Jul 8, 2008)

Yeah, that sounds like a good list!  What's left for her?


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## Shade (Jul 8, 2008)

Updated.

Feats: 4

Treasure: x

Advancement: x

An avenging spirit speaks ...


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## freyar (Jul 9, 2008)

Feats: Ability Focus (water jet), Negotiator, Spell Penetration, maybe Spell Focus (evocation or abjuration)?

Treasure: if we don't have a guideline from the original, maybe half standard?  Seems like these may have been relatively defenseless and therefore not too rich.

Advancement: 11-20 HD (Medium)

speaks Common, Celestial, and any other languages known in life?


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## Shade (Jul 9, 2008)

Agreed on all counts.



> She will use ESP and detect lie to determine the alignment and friendliness of any she meets.




We gave her discern lies as a spell, but she lacks detect thoughts or the ability to detect alignment.

I'd recommend giving detect thoughts and detect evil as at will SLAs.  Thoughts?


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## freyar (Jul 10, 2008)

Good catch!  I'm fine with giving her those.


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## Shade (Jul 10, 2008)

Updated.

CR 9?  It's tougher than the CR 8 crypt warden.

Anything else?


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## freyar (Jul 10, 2008)

CR 9 is fine, and she looks finished!


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## Shade (Jul 10, 2008)

Finally!  That one took over a month.

I'll bet this goes faster...

*Telexian Vine*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any non-arctic or desert
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
DIET: Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Average (8-10)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral Evil
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 8
MOVEMENT: 0
HIT DICE: 4+4 (main stalk) 2(each root)
THAC0: 20
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-4+1
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Entangle, spells
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Camouflage, spells
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 25%
SIZE: M (5' tall)
MORALE: Average (9)
XP VALUE: 385

The telexian vine is a malicious and dangerous plant which is capable of speaking and fighting. It produces an addictive, sweet-smelling fruit and deadly blossoms. The vine has a complex system of 8-24 roots that stretch up to 20' away from the plant, camouflaging themselves against the ground. More roots extend 10' deep into the earth, anchoring the telexian vine.
The plant boasts one large stalk that hosts its mouth and eyes and 2-4 smaller stalks, all dark green and all resembling corn stalks. In addition, each plant has numerous wire-thin vines that snake up to 60' away from the plant to search for water. These feeler vines are typically covered with beautiful black flowers and are very sensitive to vibrations, acting as sensing organs for the plant.

*Combat*: Telexian vines usually wait for their prey to come to them. The evil vines sense the approach of creatures through the wire-thin feelers and will release a fragrant scent to catch potential victims' attentions. If the vine believes a creature intends to eat its fruit, it will do nothing, waiting for the fruit to take effect. However, if the creature appears suspicious of the plant, the telexian vine will attempt to entangle its target with its feeler vines and strong roots. Any creature within reach of the vine has a 50% chance to become so entangled. Entangled creatures must make a successful bend bars roll to break free or be cut out by another character who is not entangled.

*Special Abilities*: The fruit of the telexian vine is addictive and contains a special, mild paralytic poison. Any creature eating the fruit must save versus spell or become charmed by the plant. Creatures so charmed walk numbly to the vine's main stalk, which usually eats them. Telexian vines do not devour all human and demi-humans who eat the fruit, however. Commoners and non-spell casting adventurers are frequently kept around as slaves, their loyalty insured by their addiction to the fruit. These slaves perform errands for the plant, such as acquiring food, water, and -- if possible -- magic items, some of which the plant can employ. Telexian vines can consume potions, and often do so to aid in their capturing other, useful victims. The slaves are also used to lure others to the plant, sometimes in elaborate ploys.

The telexian vine is especially fond of eating spell-using creatures, humans, and demi-humans, as it is able to "absorb" all 1st and 2nd level spells held in those victims' memories. The plant can retain up to 12 spells of each level, losing a spell when it uses one to attack a target or to defend itself. It "casts" these spells as if it were a 5th level wizard.

*Habitat/Society*: Telexian vines prefer temperate climates, although they can handle some extremes in heat and cold. They are usually found within 10 yards of a constant water source, such as a pond or stream. A few vines are mobile, having charmed slaves who will transplant them to different locations as the plants desire. One vine was reported to be planted in a large wagon, with slaves moving it around from place to place. Telexian vines keep their treasures buried beneath their main stalk. The vines are especially fond of collecting magic items they can use, particularly potions and wands it can wield with its roots.

*Ecology*: Telexian vines are capable of eating virtually any plant or animal, although they prefer the flesh of demi-humans. They reproduce through the aid of slaves who carry seed pods to other locations, plant them, and tend them until they start to grow.

The vines are sometimes sought by adventurers who use the fruits for spell components.

Originally appeared in Polyhedron #67 (1992).


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## freyar (Jul 11, 2008)

Excellent!  We need more carnivorous spellcasting plants! 

Well, there are a few easy things like poison and tremorsense.  I guess the only attack is the bite.  Seems like we need to decide if we want sorcerer spell casting or SLAs.  What do you think?


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## Shade (Jul 15, 2008)

I think there is a precedent for stolen spells...I'll look for it.

Let's get back to basics...

Medium?

Ability scores of similar plants:

Assassin Vine (L): Str 20, Dex 10, Con 16, Int —, Wis 13, Cha 9
Vine Horror (M): Str 18, Dex 10, Con 19, Int 9, Wis 13, Cha 10
Yellow Musk Creeper (H): Str 10, Dex 16, Con 21, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 9
Vinespawn (L): Str 22, Dex 21, Con 17, Int 5, Wis 10, Cha 12
Burrow Root (L): Str 26, Dex 15, Con 20, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 7


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## freyar (Jul 15, 2008)

Umm, something like Str 18, Dex 10, Con 17, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 15?  It's probably going to need the Cha for the spells...


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## Shade (Jul 16, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

Should the feeler vines grant blindsight or tremorsense?

Should we just give it a single slam attack, like the assassin vine, and make a separate ability for the entangling roots?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 16, 2008)

Agree to 1 slam + entangling roots.

Vines should give blindsight.


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## freyar (Jul 16, 2008)

Hmm, I'd prefer tremorsense, actually, since that's what I get from reading it.

Slam is ok, but I think maybe it's a bite instead.  Hard to tell.  Agreed on the separate entanglement.


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## Shade (Jul 18, 2008)

Here's how the assassin vine handles entangling:

Entangle (Su): An assassin vine can animate plants within 30 feet of itself as a free action (Ref DC 13 partial).

The effect lasts until the vine dies or decides to end it (also a free action). The save DC is Wisdom-based. The ability is otherwise similar to entangle (caster level 4th).


Now, the telexian vine is actually using its own roots, but the mechanics could remain the same.  Thoughts?


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## freyar (Jul 18, 2008)

I think the mechanics work just right for that.  Even the CL is right.

Any decision on blindsight vs tremorsense?


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## Shade (Jul 18, 2008)

I'm thinking tremorsense, since they're on the ground.


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## Shade (Jul 29, 2008)

Updated.

Since it actually entangles with its own roots and vines rather than animating others, I changed it to an Ex ability and don't think Wisdom-based DC still applies.  Strength-based?


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## freyar (Jul 29, 2008)

Switching to Ex sounds right, and so does Str-based.



> The fruit of the telexian vine is addictive and contains a special, mild paralytic poison. Any creature eating the fruit must save versus spell or become charmed by the plant. Creatures so charmed walk numbly to the vine's main stalk, which usually eats them. Telexian vines do not devour all human and demi-humans who eat the fruit, however. Commoners and non-spell casting adventurers are frequently kept around as slaves, their loyalty insured by their addiction to the fruit. These slaves perform errands for the plant, such as acquiring food, water, and -- if possible -- magic items, some of which the plant can employ. Telexian vines can consume potions, and often do so to aid in their capturing other, useful victims. The slaves are also used to lure others to the plant, sometimes in elaborate ploys.




Some sort of weird poison or a new special ability?


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## Shade (Jul 29, 2008)

Good question.   It needs to have an addictive quality to it (possibly like the drug rules in various sources).


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 29, 2008)

I say a poison. Similar to effect as the musk puffs of a yellow musk creeper?


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## Shade (Jul 30, 2008)

Excellent suggestion!

Here's that particular ability...

Musk Puff (Ex): Yellow musk creepers attack by puffing a spray of potent-smelling dust upon a nearby target. The musk has a range of 30 feet and can target one creature per round.

Creatures struck by a yellow musk creeper's musk puff must make a Fortitude save (DC 18) or fall under a mind-affecting compulsion to get closer to the entrancing source of the musk. The duration of the effect is 2d8 rounds, although creatures within the plant remain under the compulsion until removed from the creeper. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Creatures under the yellow musk creeper's compulsion can take no actions other than moving to enter the plant's space. (The creeper does not oppose these attempts, of course). Affected creatures do anything they can to comply with the compulsion and even attack companions who seek to restrain them. Once within the plant, the affected creature drops anything in hand and stands motionless. The creature is dazed and does not resist the creeper's attacks as long as it remains within the plant.


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## freyar (Jul 30, 2008)

Hmmm, 

Telexian Fruit (Su?): Any creature that eats a fruit from a telexian vine must make a Fortitude save (DC X) or fall under the domination of the plant (as the spell dominate monster) for X rounds (or longer?).  Typically, this compulsion causes the victim to move to the center of the plant, where the plant will eat the victim, but the plant may keep the victim alive to carry out other tasks (such as luring even more victims to the plant).  Victims are also instructed to keep eating the telexian fruit in order to remain dominated.


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## Shade (Jul 31, 2008)

I'd recommend 24 hours for the dominate duration.


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 1, 2008)

24 hours is good, and I like the mention of the command to keep eating.


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## freyar (Aug 1, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> 24 hours is good, and I like the mention of the command to keep eating.



Right, I thought that would be simpler (and do the same thing) as having the addiction.  Should dominated creatures automatically (ie, "intentionally" due to their domination) fail their saves against fruit they eat?


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 1, 2008)

I don't think so. Give them a chance to escape. If they pass, the plant can just command the rest of its thralls to kill the poor sap.


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## freyar (Aug 4, 2008)

Fine by me.

Should we move on to Spell Devouring or whatever we want to call it?



> The telexian vine is especially fond of eating spell-using creatures, humans, and demi-humans, as it is able to "absorb" all 1st and 2nd level spells held in those victims' memories. The plant can retain up to 12 spells of each level, losing a spell when it uses one to attack a target or to defend itself. It "casts" these spells as if it were a 5th level wizard.


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## Shade (Aug 5, 2008)

Updated.

Didn't we do a similar "spell absorb" ability on a recent conversion?


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 6, 2008)

Not so recent, but the memory moss has a similar effect.


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## Shade (Aug 6, 2008)

Thanks!

Here are the pertinent bits:

On the round following detection, an obliviax can steal the memories of an intelligent creature within 60 feet. It can attempt this theft only once per round. The affected creature must succeed on a DC 14 Will save or lose all recollection of the last 24 hours. If the target is a spellcaster who prepares spells, all prepared spells are lost until the target rests to prepare them again. If the target is a spellcaster who does not prepare spells, the target loses all remaining spells per day until he rests again. An affected creature takes 1d3 points of Wisdom damage, becoming baffled and disoriented, with all memory of the previous 24 hours completely blanked out. Surrounding the moss with lead will block this power totally. This is a mind-affecting compulsion effect. This effect cannot negate charm, geas/quest, suggestion, or similar spells. Obliviaxes prefer the memories of arcane spellcasters who prepare spells above all others.

Stolen Spells (Su): An obliviax mossling can cast some of the spells stolen by its parent patch of obliviax when it was created. Although all the spells are stolen, an oblviax mossling can only cast spells of a level equal to or lower than its Hit Dice. The caster level for a stolen spell is the minimum caster level needed to cast the spell, regardless of the original caster's level. The save DCs are Charisma-based. The mossling casts its stolen spells as if they were spell-like abilities, although once it casts a spell, it cannot reuse that spell. If the obliviax stole the memories of a spellcaster who does not prepare spells, then the remaining spells per day are determined randomly from the caster's list of spells known.


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## freyar (Aug 6, 2008)

I don't think we really need the first paragraph, since the telexian vine is only going to get spells from casters it actually kills and eats.  But the Stolen spells looks about right, just using spells of 2nd level or less at CL 5.


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## Shade (Aug 6, 2008)

Like so?

Stolen Spells (Su): A telexian vine can cast some of the spells of spellcasters it has eaten. A telexian vine can only cast spells of 2nd-level or lower, and its caster level is 5th.  The save DCs are Charisma-based. The telexian vine casts its stolen spells as if they were spell-like abilities, although once it casts a spell, it cannot reuse that spell. If the telexian vine stole devours a spellcaster who does not prepare spells, then the remaining spells per day are determined randomly from the caster's list of spells known.


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## freyar (Aug 6, 2008)

Took the words out of my mouth, so to speak.  The CL and spell levels are even right for sorcerer spell casting, which is nice.


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## Shade (Aug 7, 2008)

> These slaves perform errands for the plant, such as acquiring food, water, and -- if possible -- magic items, some of which the plant can employ. Telexian vines can consume potions, and often do so to aid in their capturing other, useful victims.






> Telexian vines keep their treasures buried beneath their main stalk. The vines are especially fond of collecting magic items they can use, particularly potions and wands it can wield with its roots.




Treasure:  Standard coins; standard goods; double items?

Skills: 14
Max ranks in Use Magic Device?  Put the rest in Concentration?

Feats: 2

Environment: Temperate or warm lands?

Organization: Solitary or retinue? (1 plus x dominated creatures)?

Alignment: Always neutral evil?

Advancement: x


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## freyar (Aug 7, 2008)

Yes on all the questions. 
Feats: Magical Aptitude (for the UMD checks), Ability Focus (telexian fruit)
1d4 dominated creatures?
5-8HD (Medium), 9-13HD (Large), 14-18HD (Huge)

Incidentally on the fruit ability, do you still think the save should be Fort or be dominated?  I'm waffling on whether maybe it should be a Will save or not.  I think originally we went Fort because it's like a poison or intoxicant, but Will would be more normal.


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## Shade (Aug 7, 2008)

Updated.

Will does seem a better fit for the save.  Any other opinions?

CR 3?


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## freyar (Aug 7, 2008)

Yeah, that's about right, I think.  The DCs are a little high, but the AC and hp are low enough that I wouldn't want to go higher.


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## Shade (Aug 7, 2008)

Shade said:


> The telexian vine is a malicious and dangerous plant which is capable of speaking and fighting.




Telexian vines speak x.

Should we give them telepathy to make it easier to command various victims of their fruit?


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## freyar (Aug 7, 2008)

Common and Sylvan?

Doesn't dominate automatically establish a telepathic link?


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## Shade (Aug 7, 2008)

Sure enough!  Good catch.  

Updated.


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## freyar (Aug 7, 2008)

Looks done if you agree.  An alternative to the orcwort and similar plants.


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## Shade (Aug 22, 2008)

*Dawnspirit*
by Saku Mantere
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any
FREQUENCY: Very Rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Nil
INTELLIGENCE: Exceptional
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Any Good
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 0
MOVEMENT: Fl 15 (A)
HIT DICE: 10
THACO: 11
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-6/1-6/2-12
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Holy Word, fear, quest
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Brightness, hit only by + 1 or better magical weapons, immune to all forms of mental control, immune to poison
MAGIC RESISTANCE: See Below
SIZE: M (6' tall)
MORALE: Fearless (20)
XP VALUE: 3,000

Dawnspirits are energy beings from the upper outer planes. Each dawnspirit's alignment matches the alignment associated with its home plane (for example, a dawnspirit from the Seven Heavens would be Lawful Good). The origins of these creatures are a mystery, but one theory is that they are the spirits of truly great heroes and other champions of good who died fighting evil on the outer planes.

A dawn spirit cannot leave its home plane unless sent forth by the plane's ruler or summoned by a good creature employing a gate, wish, or limited wish spell. The caster's alignment and motives must be pure for a dawnspirit to heed a summons. Once summoned, a dawn spirit may wander the new plane for a few days or weeks before returning home. A dawnspirit can communicate telepathically.

On their home plane, a dawnspirit's form is a ball of brilliant sunlight, much like a will-o-wisp, only brighter. When summoned to another plane, a dawnspirit acquires an aesthetically beautiful, but androgynous, form which glows with a pure, white light.

Combat: Dawnspirits attack with two fists and a powerful kick. They can divide the attacks as they see fit.

The pure light radiating from a dawnspirit causes fear in evil creatures who see the dawnspirit. Creatures of less than three hit dice automatically flee at their fastest movement rate until they are out of sight and for 1d3 rounds thereafter. Creatures of three or more hit dice save vs. spells or are paralyzed with fear for 1d4+1 rounds. Undead who make the saving throw still suffer a -2 "to hit" penalty when within 40 feet of the dawnspirit.

Once per day, a dawnspirit can utter a powerful holy word. This ability sometimes is called "the voice of the gods." Extra-planar evil creatures within 60 feet are automatically forced back to their home plane if not already on it. (This effect works even if the dawnspirit is not on its own home plane.) All other evil creatures within 60 feet are affected as if struck by a normal holy word. In addition, good creatures within 30 feet gain a +2 "to hit" and damage bonus for 1d4+1 rounds.

A dawnspirit's alien mind is completely immune to magical control of any kind, and, since its body is made up of pure energy, it cannot be drugged or poisoned.

Habitat/Society: Dawnspirits have no real society and, as beings of pure energy, they can live anywhere. Most deities dwelling on the upper outer planes are attended by a staff of dawnspirits who act as messengers and intermediaries. Some sages believe that dawnspirits might be involved in the granting of priest spells.

Though mortals can summon them, dawnspirits serve only at their own discretion and never will knowingly commit an evil act or assist an unworthy being. If asked to do something selfish or evil, a dawnspirit immediately returns to its home plane. When summoned by any means, a dawnspirit instinctively knows the summoner's general character and intentions, and bases its decision whether to appear on the merits of the situation.
The DM must decide what a summoned dawnspirit will do, but here are some guidelines: Summoner has followed his alignment strictly and is beset by extra-planar creatures he cannot otherwise combat -- 100% chance to appear. Summoner endangered by extra-planar creatures -- 75% chance to appear, but dawnspirit demands that the summoner complete a quest of the dawnspirit's choosing in return for its aid. If the summoner agrees, he is automatically subject to the quest, no saving throw. Summoner's alignment performance has been exemplary, but summoner or beings dependent on the summoner not in great danger -- 50% chance to appear, demands quest. Summoner's alignment performance has been unsatisfactory or summoner facing encounter he probably can complete on his own without risking death or injury -- 25% chance to appear, demands quest.

Ecology: Dawnspirits have no need to eat, sleep, or breathe. They can survive in the vacuum of space, in the depths of the ocean, or anywhere else in the universe, except the Negative Material plane, which they cannot enter. They have no enemies except evil creatures who hate them for their goodness.

Originally appeared in Polyhedron #67 (1992).


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## freyar (Aug 22, 2008)

Well, outsider for sure.  The made of "pure energy" part makes me want to say incorporeal, but the rest doesn't really go along with that.  The "globe" form should probably be incorporeal, like a ghaele's, I guess.

Since these are possibly the spirits of powerful heros, do you want to bump the HD some?


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## Shade (Sep 4, 2008)

freyar said:


> Well, outsider for sure.  The made of "pure energy" part makes me want to say incorporeal, but the rest doesn't really go along with that.  The "globe" form should probably be incorporeal, like a ghaele's, I guess.




Agreed with all that.



freyar said:


> Since these are possibly the spirits of powerful heros, do you want to bump the HD some?




10 HD could still be considered a fairly powerful hero.


Since they have the same HD and other similarities with ghaele eladrins, we could look toward the ghaele to determine ability scores:

Str 25, Dex 12, Con 15, Int 16, Wis 17, Cha 16

The Int fits perfectly with the exceptional Intelligence.  I could see possibly reducing Str a bit and increasing Dex.  

Thoughts?


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## freyar (Sep 4, 2008)

Yeah, I guess 10HD is fairly powerful, but not the standard for plane-hopping IMHO.   Most importantly, though, I think, it's the same as the ghaele.

I like the ghaele's abilities.  Let's maybe go with Str 21, Dex 18?


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## Shade (Sep 8, 2008)

That'll work.

Added to Homebrews.


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## Shade (Sep 9, 2008)

> A dawnspirit can communicate telepathically.




Telepathy 60 feet?



> On their home plane, a dawnspirit's form is a ball of brilliant sunlight, much like a will-o-wisp, only brighter. When summoned to another plane, a dawnspirit acquires an aesthetically beautiful, but androgynous, form which glows with a pure, white light.




Borrow this?

Alternate Form (Su): A coure can assume the form of an incorporeal ball of light at will. This transformation counts as a standard action. In this form, the coure can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, +1 or better magic weapons, spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. In this form, the coure has a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source, except for force effects or attacks made with ghost touch weapons. A coure in this form can pass through solid objects, but not force effects, at will. While incorporeal, its attacks ignore natural armor, armor, and shields, but deflection bonuses and force effects work normally against them. In this form, a coure always moves silently and cannot be heard with Listen checks if it doesn't wish to be. While incorporeal, the coure sheds light as it wishes, providing illumination with any radius it wishes up to 30 feet. Changing the amount of light it sheds is a free action that the coure can perform once per round.



> The pure light radiating from a dawnspirit causes fear in evil creatures who see the dawnspirit. Creatures of less than three hit dice automatically flee at their fastest movement rate until they are out of sight and for 1d3 rounds thereafter. Creatures of three or more hit dice save vs. spells or are paralyzed with fear for 1d4+1 rounds. Undead who make the saving throw still suffer a -2 "to hit" penalty when within 40 feet of the dawnspirit.




Here's an attempt at this ability...

Light of Purity (Su):  A dawnspirit continuously raditates pure light to a radius of 40 feet that strikes terror into evil creatures.  Evil creatures of less than 3 HD are immediately panicked (no save) for x rounds/minutes.  Evil creatures with more than 3 Hit Dice must succeed on a DC X Will save or cower for x rounds.  Undead creatures of any Hit Dice must succeed on a DC X Will save or be turned (as if affected by a turn undead attempt).  The save DC is Charisma-based.



> Once per day, a dawnspirit can utter a powerful holy word. This ability sometimes is called "the voice of the gods." Extra-planar evil creatures within 60 feet are automatically forced back to their home plane if not already on it. (This effect works even if the dawnspirit is not on its own home plane.) All other evil creatures within 60 feet are affected as if struck by a normal holy word. In addition, good creatures within 30 feet gain a +2 "to hit" and damage bonus for 1d4+1 rounds.




Voice of the Gods (Su):  Once per day, a dawnspirit can utter a single word of powerful goodness.  This functions as a holy word spell (caster level equals dawnspirit's Hit Dice).  Additionally, all good creatures within 30 feet gain a +2 morale bonus on attack and damage rolls for 1d4+1 rounds.  This is a sonic effect.  The save DC is Charisma-based.



> Ecology: Dawnspirits have no need to eat, sleep, or breathe. They can survive in the vacuum of space, in the depths of the ocean, or anywhere else in the universe, except the Negative Material plane, which they cannot enter. They have no enemies except evil creatures who hate them for their goodness.




Since outsiders normally have to breathe, we'll need a breathless ability, like this...

Breathless (Ex): Members of air races do not breathe, so they have immunity to drowning, suffocation, and attacks that require inhalation (such as some types of poison). 

For the prohibition from the Negative Energy Plane, should we give them a vulnerability (+50%) to negative energy damage?


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## freyar (Sep 10, 2008)

Wow, that's a bunch to process.  I think I like all of it, but I reserve the right to reevaluate as we go along.


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## Shade (Sep 10, 2008)

Fair enough.  

Updated.



> Though mortals can summon them, dawnspirits serve only at their own discretion and never will knowingly commit an evil act or assist an unworthy being. If asked to do something selfish or evil, a dawnspirit immediately returns to its home plane. When summoned by any means, a dawnspirit instinctively knows the summoner's general character and intentions, and bases its decision whether to appear on the merits of the situation.




Supernatural ability that is a combo of detect evil and detect thoughts?



> The DM must decide what a summoned dawnspirit will do, but here are some guidelines: Summoner has followed his alignment strictly and is beset by extra-planar creatures he cannot otherwise combat -- 100% chance to appear. Summoner endangered by extra-planar creatures -- 75% chance to appear, but dawnspirit demands that the summoner complete a quest of the dawnspirit's choosing in return for its aid. If the summoner agrees, he is automatically subject to the quest, no saving throw. Summoner's alignment performance has been exemplary, but summoner or beings dependent on the summoner not in great danger -- 50% chance to appear, demands quest. Summoner's alignment performance has been unsatisfactory or summoner facing encounter he probably can complete on his own without risking death or injury -- 25% chance to appear, demands quest.




Geas/quest as a 1/day SLA, and note in flavor text it only uses this ability when summoned?


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## freyar (Sep 10, 2008)

Agreed with all that.

Skills: Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Spot, Listen, Knowledge (religion), Knowledge (the planes), Concentration, Heal, Hide, Move Silently, Intimidate ?

Feats: Multiattack, Ability Focus (light of purity), Combat Expertise, Imp Disarm?

Where's the DC 20 on Voice of the Gods come from?  Should it be an Sp ability if it uses the spell level + Cha mod?

DR 10/evil?


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## Shade (Sep 10, 2008)

I like all that, except I can't see them being stealthy, since they are walking lightbulbs.  

How about replacing Hide and Move Silently with Search and Use Magic Device?

Good catch on the save DC for voice of the gods.


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## freyar (Sep 11, 2008)

Yeah, those are good skill choices.  I didn't really get a UMD vibe from these, but it actually kind of makes sense.  (They can turn off their light, though, right?)

Also on Voice of the Gods: I think we need to put in that the banishment function of the holy word functions even when the dawnspirit is not on its home plane.

How about +4 deflection AC, +2 natural AC?  That way it still keeps a pretty good AC as a globe as well as gaining incorporeal protection.

CR 8-9?


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## Shade (Sep 11, 2008)

Updated.



freyar said:


> (They can turn off their light, though, right?)




I'm not sure.  I'm almost leaning towards "no", since they are essentially formed of light.

Dawnspirits speaks Celestial, Infernal, and Abyssal?

A dawnspirit is 6 feet tall and weighs x pounds. 

We need to fill in the x's:

Light of Purity (Su): A dawnspirit continuously raditates pure light to a radius of 40 feet that strikes terror into evil creatures. Evil creatures of less than 3 HD are immediately panicked (no save) for x rounds/minutes. Evil creatures with more than 3 Hit Dice must succeed on a DC 20 Will save or cower for x rounds. Undead creatures of any Hit Dice must succeed on a DC 20 Will save or be turned (as if affected by a turn undead attempt). The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## freyar (Sep 15, 2008)

No is fine.

Languages seem appropriate.  Telepathy covers the rest.

200 lb? Or should they be skinny (150 lb)?

panicked for 1 minute, cover for 1d6 rounds?


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## Shade (Sep 15, 2008)

Updated.

Finished?


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## freyar (Sep 15, 2008)

Looks done!


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## Shade (Sep 24, 2008)

*Death Ox (by Gregory W. Detwiler)*

CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any temperate
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Group
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
DIET: Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Animal (1)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 2-4
ARMOR CLASS: 2
MOVEMENT: 12
HIT DICE: 6
THAC0: 15
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-12
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Death gaze
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Immune to death magic
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: L (8' tall at shoulder)
MORALE: Average (8)
XP VALUE: 975

The death ox is a less aggressive relative of the gorgon that lives in small family groups. A rich mahogany in color, a death ox resembles a huge, scaly bull. The scales are not metal, like the gorgon's, but they are just as hard and are made out of a natural carapace. All death oxen have a patch of heavy black hair over their eyes. People who have seen the color of a death ox's eyes have not lived to reveal that information.

Combat: The death ox has one physical attack -- a charge ending with a massive goring attack with both horns. More fearsome, however, is the death ox's gaze, which acts as a death ray to any who view the creature (range 50'). The death ox uses its gaze attack at will. The creature is not malicious, and typically uses the gaze in self-defense or when it is hunting for food. Because of its affinity to death magic, it is naturally immune to death spells, power word kill, and all other types of death magic.

If a death ox surprises a party, there is a 1 in 6 chance that at least once character met the creature's gaze. There is no saving throw versus the death ray. However, anyone in gaze range who closes or averts his eyes gets a saving throw versus death magic. Those who save were able to look away in time. Those who fight the death ox must make such a saving throw each round to avoid the gaze unless they have protective eye covering.

Habitat/Society: The death ox has no lair, simply living by moving from place to place in search of food and water. A death ox family typically consists of one male, three females, and calves. The calves are raised by all the females in the group until they are old enough to fend for themselves. The young oxen which leave their family quickly find others of their kind to join with.
It is rare to find a single death ox. Such an encounter is almost certainly with a male, a young bull in search of females. When more than one bull is in a group of death ox, there will be battles for dominance over the group. The losing bull either leaves or becomes subservient to the dominant bull.

Ecology: The death ox usually eats plants, supplementing its diet with flesh when animals or hapless individuals wander into its gaze. The ox can sometimes be spotted grazing with other herd animals. When grazing with others, the ox keeps its head low and hair over its eyes so it does not randomly kill the other grazers. Those grazers are usually only in jeopardy in times of drought. Man is the death ox's only known predator. It is sometimes hunted for its skin. The hide of a death ox is often sought by armorers, as it has the thickness of scale mail, yet the protection of banded or plate depending on how it is cured. The ox's blood is used as a component in death spells.

Originally appeared in Polyhedron #67 (1992).


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 24, 2008)

These are basically the same as a catoblepas with a gore attack rather than a tail slam. I don't know if they actually need a conversion.


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## Melatuis (Sep 25, 2008)

How much stronger and faster would the death ox be compared to a catoblepas?


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## Shade (Sep 25, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> These are basically the same as a catoblepas with a gore attack rather than a tail slam. I don't know if they actually need a conversion.




Hmmm...maybe we can jazz 'em up a bit to make them worthwhile.  I kinda like the flavor text.



Melatuis said:


> How much stronger and faster would the death ox be compared to a catoblepas?




As written, it would have identical Hit Dice and speed.  It would most likely be weaker than the catoblepas, since it would be Large, while the catoblepas is Huge.

Gorgon abilty scores:  Str 21, Dex 10, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 9
Catoblepas ability scores:  Str 26, Dex 13, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 8


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 25, 2008)

Well, for one, we can make the death gaze an actual gaze, rather than an eye-ray like the catoblepas has. This would probably increase the CR rather a bit. Deadly charge seems like a must as an ability, and its natural armor is probably pretty high.


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## Shade (Sep 25, 2008)

All sounds good.

For starters, lets tackle ability scores.   

Gorgon's scores:  Str 21, Dex 10, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 9

This thing is actually 2 feet taller than the gorgon, although it is "less agressive".

Assuming the gaze is Cha-based, we'll need a bit of a bump there.


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## freyar (Sep 25, 2008)

I agree with true gaze attack and corresponding CR increase.

Str 19, Dex 10, Con 23, Int 1, Wis 10, Cha 12?  Wanted to bump Cha a little for the gaze DC.


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## GrayLinnorm (Sep 25, 2008)

Also note that the catoblepas is officially an aberration, while the death ox will likely be a magical beast.


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## Shade (Sep 25, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Sep 26, 2008)

For the gaze, I'd like to give the ox the ability to "turn it off."  Something like:

Death Gaze (Su): Death, 30 ft, Fort Save DC X negates, the save DC is Charisma-based.  A death ox may suppress or resume its gaze as a free action (by covering its eyes with its hair).


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 26, 2008)

Good idea!


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## Shade (Sep 26, 2008)

Indeed!   Updated.


Skills: 9 ranks  (gorgon has listen and spot)

Feats: 3 (gorgon has Alertness, Improved Initiative, Iron Will)

Advancement: 6–12 HD (Large); 13–18 HD (Huge)?

A typical death ox stands over 8 feet tall at the shoulder and measures x feet from snout to tail. It weighs about x pounds.  (A typical gorgon stands over 6 feet tall at the shoulder and measures 8 feet from snout to tail. It weighs about 4,000 pounds.)


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## freyar (Sep 26, 2008)

Let's give it 7 ranks in Listen, 2 in Spot (can't be that good if it's always hiding its eyes in its hair).

Imp Init and IW are good.  I could either go with Ability Focus (death gaze) or Endurance (like a bison).


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## Shade (Sep 26, 2008)

Sounds good.

Advancement: 6–12 HD (Large); 13–18 HD (Huge)?

A typical death ox stands over 8 feet tall at the shoulder and measures x feet from snout to tail. It weighs about x pounds. (A typical gorgon stands over 6 feet tall at the shoulder and measures 8 feet from snout to tail. It weighs about 4,000 pounds.)

CR 7?


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## freyar (Sep 26, 2008)

Advancement is good.  How about 9 feet snout to tail (a little more compact) and 8000 lb?  Yeah, it's probably about as bad as a medusa, so CR 7 is good.


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## Shade (Sep 26, 2008)

Updated.

All done?


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## freyar (Sep 26, 2008)

Looks good to me!


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 27, 2008)

Looks good from over here too.


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## Shade (Oct 6, 2008)

*Bloodstone Zombie*

CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any
FREQUENCY: Very Rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVE TIME: Any
DIET: None
INTELLIGENCE: Average
TREASURE: Special
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic Evil
NO. APPEARING: 1-4
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVEMENT: 9
HIT DICE: 3+3
THACO: 15
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2 or 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-7/2-7 or by weapon
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Death grip, disease
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Silver or +1 or better weapon to hit, immunity to illusion/phantasm spells
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M (6')
MORALE: 20 (fearless)
XP VALUE: 420

Bloodstone zombies are initially difficult to recognize as undead. They appear to be beautiful humans and demihumans with smooth skin, sparkling eyes, and white teeth. These creatures are often able to approach their victims casually, not revealing their undead nature until they close to melee. Then their intended victims can see the Bloodstone zombies' claw like fingers and smell the stench of the grave. This type of un dead was created decades ago by an insane necromancer. The necromancer considered undead beautiful creatures, and he devoted his life to creating zombies that were as handsome as stately princes and as comely as the most shapely dancing girl. He succeeded by concocting a disease that killed its victims and brought them back to life as undead. The process also gave them a near-perfect appearance-good looks they did not have while they breathed. Unfortunately for the necromancer, he died at the claws of his lovely minions, realizing, by becoming one of their kind, that the disease he created could be passed on. Bloodstone zombies hate all life and attack whenever they deem the odds in their favor. They avoid fights with superior numbers or with fighters in heavy armor; the zombies have no desire to return to their graves.

Combat: Bloodstone zombies are very strong, with an effective Strength of 18/50. However, because their movements are not as fluid as living fighters, they cannot fully utilize their strength, hence delivering only 2-7 points of damage per claw attack. When using weapons they receive only a + 2 damage bonus.

Because Bloodstone zombies are more intelligent than other zombies, they set traps for their foes. Comely Bloodstone zombies have been known to lure unsuspecting victims into dark alleys. And handsome Bloodstone zombies, sprinkled with colognes to hide their stench, have escorted lone women to their dooms. Of course, the zombies also take the simple approach of a straightforward melee. Unlike other zombies, Bloodstone Zombies do not automatically lose initiative.

In melee, a Bloodstone zombie strikes with its claws. If both claw attacks hit, the zombie has successfully grabbed its victim in a "death grip" and can inflict its special attack. Victims are held for 1d6+1 rounds; they can break free earlier with a successful bend bars/lift gates roll. For every round a victim is held, he or she must make a saving throw versus death magic. Failure means the victim has contracted a disease carried by the Bloodstone zombie. The disease causes the victim to lose 2 points of Strength and Constitution per hour. When the victim's Strength and Constitution scores reach zero, he or she dies and will rise as a Bloodstone zombie one hour later.

Any personal items left on the victim will be carried by the newly-risen Bloodstone zombie and will be used to help hide its undead nature. Thus, treasure carried by Bloodstone zombies could range from a few coins to magical weapons.

Victims who are struck by the claws of a Bloodstone zombie, but who are not held in the death grip, also have a chance of contracting the disease, dying and returning as a zombie. These victims also must make a saving throw vs. death magic, but they receive a +4 bonus to their roll. Burning a victim who dies of the zombie disease will prevent him or her from becoming undead.

Bloodstone zombies are aware that normal weapons will not harm them. Although they are capable of using the weapons they wielded in life, they prefer to attack with their claws.
Bloodstone zombies turn as wights on the priest undead turning table.

Habitat/Society: Bloodstone zombies do not have a social order, nor do they recognize any form of government among their kind. With few exceptions, they are free-willed undead.

Ecology: Their capability to spread the Bloodstone zombie disease is their only means of continuing their species. The ease at which this disease is transmitted seems to insure the survival of their kind.

Evil clerics reportedly seek the zombies to add to their stable of undead.

Originally appeared in Polyhedron #76 (1992).


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## freyar (Oct 6, 2008)

These are pretty neat!  So, do we want to start with the zombie template or from an example zombie as a monster?  I think I'm leaning toward template, esp because we already have the zombie template to work from.


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## Shade (Oct 6, 2008)

Yeah, let's start with a template.

These remind me somewhat of true ghouls.


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## Shade (Oct 7, 2008)

Normal Zombie Abilities: A zombie’s Strength increases by +2, its Dexterity decreases by 2, it has no Constitution or Intelligence score, its Wisdom changes to 10, and its Charisma changes to 1.

It sounds like these should have average Int, and decent Cha.

Maybe...

Abilities: A bloodstone zombie’s Strength increases by +2, its Dexterity decreases by 2, it has no Constitution score, its Intelligence and Wisdom change to 10, and its Charisma increases by +4.


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## freyar (Oct 7, 2008)

I say we leave Int and Wis alone; that way they average to average Int for the various species.

From the zombie template: 

Hit Dice: Drop any Hit Dice from class levels (to a minimum of 1), double the number of Hit Dice left, and raise them to d12s. If the base creature has more than 10 Hit Dice (not counting those gained with experience), it can’t be made into a zombie with the animate dead spell.

Keep this the same?


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## GrayLinnorm (Oct 7, 2008)

I agree with Freyar about intelligence, and since they're intelligent, they should be able to keep class abilities and hit dice.


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## Shade (Oct 7, 2008)

GrayLinnorm said:


> I agree with Freyar about intelligence, and since they're intelligent, they should be able to keep class abilities and hit dice.




Sounds good on the Int.

I'm not sure about keeping class abilities and other special abilities.  I got the impression that these are just "slightly smarter, much more attractive" zombies with a few less limitations.  If they retain their abilities, they seem more like the corpse creature template.   I could be convinced either way, though.


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## freyar (Oct 8, 2008)

My inclination is that they keep their native Int but not their memories.  So GrayLinnorm could convince me, but I suspect that they should lose class HD and class abilities.  I guess I also feel that these are really supposed to be variant zombies.


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## GrayLinnorm (Oct 8, 2008)

Maybe we should do this as a standard monster.  It's pointless to make it a template if they're not going to retain class abilities, and I can't really see this work for non-humanoids.


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## Shade (Oct 8, 2008)

GrayLinnorm said:


> Maybe we should do this as a standard monster.  It's pointless to make it a template if they're not going to retain class abilities, and I can't really see this work for non-humanoids.




Good point. It was clearly intended for humans and demihumans, which don't make for a wide variety of zombies.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 9, 2008)

Agreed to standard monster. Perhaps a Small and a Medium variety, but other than that...


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## freyar (Oct 9, 2008)

I'm convinced.  Small and Medium also sounds fair, and I still think we should work from the sample zombies in the SRD.


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## Shade (Oct 9, 2008)

OK, then looking at the human commoner zombie...

Str 12, Dex 8, Con —, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 1

Int is supposed to be "average" and Cha sounds halfway decent, so maybe...

Str 12, Dex 8, Con —, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 14?


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## freyar (Oct 9, 2008)

Let's do Int 11 and Cha 15.


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## Shade (Oct 9, 2008)

Got 'em started in Homebrews.

Let's decide what to retain from traditional zombies...


It looks like single actions only is out, since they have two claw attacks.
Damage reduction 5/slashing?
Can't run?


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## GrayLinnorm (Oct 9, 2008)

The strength should be a lot higher than 12; the original description said it was 18/50.


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## freyar (Oct 10, 2008)

GrayLinnorm said:


> The strength should be a lot higher than 12; the original description said it was 18/50.



Good point.  According to the conversion book, 18/50 is the upper end of 19.  Want to go with that or with 20?

DR sounds right, and so does can't run.  Any other way to slow these down?  Maybe can't take AoOs without giving up a standard action?  (The way I read the zombie single action only, it forbids that unless they give up their usual turn.)


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 10, 2008)

Let's go Str 20. We could lower their speed the old fashioned way--I'm okay with them getting full actions.


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## Shade (Oct 10, 2008)

I updated them with Str 20.



demiurge1138 said:


> Let's go Str 20. We could lower their speed the old fashioned way--I'm okay with them getting full actions.




Me too.  In fact, they don't appear to be terribly slow in the original writeup.  In addition to gaining multiple attacks, there's this:



> Unlike other zombies, Bloodstone Zombies do not automatically lose initiative.




Should the disease be traditional, or supernatural like mummy rot?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 10, 2008)

Supernatural.


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## freyar (Oct 11, 2008)

This all sounds good to me...


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## Shade (Oct 13, 2008)

> In melee, a Bloodstone zombie strikes with its claws. If both claw attacks hit, the zombie has successfully grabbed its victim in a "death grip" and can inflict its special attack. Victims are held for 1d6+1 rounds; they can break free earlier with a successful bend bars/lift gates roll. For every round a victim is held, he or she must make a saving throw versus death magic. Failure means the victim has contracted a disease carried by the Bloodstone zombie. The disease causes the victim to lose 2 points of Strength and Constitution per hour. When the victim's Strength and Constitution scores reach zero, he or she dies and will rise as a Bloodstone zombie one hour later.




Does this work?

Improved Grab (Ex):  To use this ability, a bloodstone zombie must hit an opponent of its size or smaller with both claw attacks. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and exposes its opponent to bloodstone blessing.

"Bloodstone Blessing" (Su): Supernatural disease—grapple, Fortitude DC x, incubation period 1 hour; damage 1d2 Con and 1d2 Str. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Unlike normal diseases, bloodstone blessing continues until the victim reaches Constitution 0 (and dies) or is cured as described below. 

Bloodstone blessing is a powerful curse, not a natural disease. A character attempting to cast any conjuration (healing) spell on a creature afflicted with bloodstone blessing must succeed on a DC x caster level check, or the spell has no effect on the afflicted character.

To eliminate bloodstone blessing, the curse must first be broken with break enchantment or remove curse (requiring a DC x caster level check for either spell), after which a caster level check is no longer necessary to cast healing spells on the victim, and the bloodstone blessing can be magically cured as any normal disease.

An afflicted creature who dies of bloodstone blessing rises as a bloodstone zombie 1 hour later.


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## freyar (Oct 14, 2008)

I think that's pretty good.  Caster level check of 15?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 14, 2008)

15 sounds reasonable at the moment, but we should wait to establish it, perhaps, until we know what CR these things are.


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## Shade (Oct 14, 2008)

Agreed.

Updated.

Sample weapon for attack lines?

Skills: 24 (max rank 6)
Max Bluff and Disguise?  

Feats: Toughness (B), 2 more

Advancement: ?


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## freyar (Oct 14, 2008)

Fair enough.  I'm just guessing since mummies (8HD) are DC 20.  Also, remove curse requires CL 5 anyway.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 15, 2008)

A morningstar wielded in two hands for the sample weapon. 

Ability Focus (bloodstone blessing), Improved Initiative, Toughness (B)

They should advance by HD, I think.


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## Shade (Oct 15, 2008)

Updated.

Skills: Bluff 6, Disguise 6, Knowledge (religion) 6, Move Silently 6?
I was thinking Knowledge (religion) to help them understand their own origin and how to best propogate their species.

Advancement: 4-9 HD (Medium)?  Or do we want to allow advancement to Large to allow for those created from bigger humanoids?

CR 2-3?  (Ghasts and wights are CR 3, and are a bit deadlier, so I'm leaning toward a strong 2.)


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 15, 2008)

I like giving them Knowledge religion and advancing them to Large size.


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## freyar (Oct 15, 2008)

So Knowledge (religion) 6, Move Silently 6.
Advancement: 4-7 HD (Medium), 8-12 HD (Large)?
CR 2 is fair.


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## Shade (Oct 15, 2008)

Updated.



			
				demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> 15 sounds reasonable at the moment, but we should wait to establish it, perhaps, until we know what CR these things are.




Does it still look reasonable at CR 2?

Should we add a "can be created with x spell" line?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 16, 2008)

DC 15 is fair at CR 2, because the party won't have access to remove curse or remove disease themselves. They'll have to get scrolls... at CL 5.

I think we should let them be created by spells, yes. Create undead?


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## Shade (Oct 16, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> I think we should let them be created by spells, yes. Create undead?




Sure.  11th or lower level like ghouls?


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## freyar (Oct 16, 2008)

Create undead works.  At 11th CL (like ghoul) or 12th-14th (like ghast)?  As an alternative: a zombie may be converted to a bloodstone zombie by use of a contagion spell in a special ritual?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 17, 2008)

I think they should be on par with ghasts for creation.


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## Shade (Oct 17, 2008)

Updated.

Another one down?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 17, 2008)

I'm thinking so.


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## Shade (Oct 17, 2008)

This next one should be fairly simple, since it would appear to fit nicely between the lich and demilich templates.

*Semi-Lich*

This is a demi-lich that hasn't made it yet. Its appearance is similar to a demilich, a gem encrusted skull and a few scattered bones. Although its body has rotted away, its original lifeforce is still strong, and the creature does not need to accumulate energy as does a demilich. When approached to within 10 feet, the skull rises into the air, supported by a column of dust. The creature can use any spell it could use as a lich, but has no physical attacks (except touch-delivered spells). The creature cannot be turned. Even if reduced to 0 hit points or less, a semi-lich is not destroyed until holy water is poured on the site and a ceremony spell is cast to consecrate the ground. If these steps are not taken, the creature will reform in 1d6 months.

This particular specimen is a 13th level cleric with a wisdom of 12.

Semi-lich: AL CE; MV 0; Cl 13; hp 60; AC -3; THAC0 12; #AT 1; Dmg N/A; Size 3; In genius; Sts 9; Stw 8; SD hit only by +3 or better weapons
Spells: cure light wounds, darkness, cause light wounds (x2), protection from good, cause fear (x2), command, wyvern watch (x2), dust devil, silence 15' radius (x2), know alignment, hold person (x2), cause paralysis (x2), curse, dispel magic (x2), prayer, spike stones, spell immunity, cause serious wounds, imbue with spell ability (cast), golem (x2)

Originally appeared in Polyhedron #42 (1988).


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 18, 2008)

Neat! You're right. Taking some out of the lich column and some from the demilich column should be pretty good.


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## freyar (Oct 18, 2008)

Should we make this a template applied to a lich, like the demilich?  Might save us some writing...  I don't think this should be epic, unlike the demilich, but it should retain all the lich's abilities.  In particular, I think it should still have the paralyzing touch and normal phylactery.


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## Shade (Oct 20, 2008)

freyar said:


> Should we make this a template applied to a lich, like the demilich?  Might save us some writing...  I don't think this should be epic, unlike the demilich, but it should retain all the lich's abilities.  In particular, I think it should still have the paralyzing touch and normal phylactery.




Sounds like a good start.  One thing that differs is this has total lack of movement, and it sounds like the "phylactery" is simply the ground on which it lies.   Shall we retain those features?   The lack of mobility could be an interesting angle, where the semilich relies on using its guile and magic to convince other creatures to carry it around.

Also, it was described as having turn immunity, while the demilich has "only" +20 turn resistance.   Meet somewhere between at +10 or so, or just grant it immunity?


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## freyar (Oct 20, 2008)

But it flies around when approached, so the lack of movement is kind of weird.  Maybe it has a fly speed, but only a few rounds per day?

Like the 3.5 demilich, I'd like this to keep the same phylactery it had as a lich.  It really reads like it's supposed to be an in-between stage.  Shouldn't have the magic-item-phylactery-linking ability, though.

How about +12 turn resistance, 1/2 way between lich and demilich?


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## Shade (Oct 21, 2008)

That may be a good approach.

Let's start looking at the demilich enhancements...



> Size: Medium and Large liches become Diminutive demiliches, Huge liches become Small demiliches, Gargantuan liches become Medium demiliches, and Colossal liches become Large demiliches.




That blueprint should work here as well.



> AC: The demilich retains the lich's +5 natural armor bonus and gains an insight bonus to AC equal to its Hit Dice, as well as probable size adjustment to AC (for example, +4 for its new Diminutive size for a previously Medium lich).




If we allow the insight bonus, I'd suggest basing it off Cha modifier, rather than HD.



> Attacks: The demilich gains an insight bonus equal to its Hit Dice as a bonus on its touch attacks.




Again, would Cha modifier be a good intermediate?  Or maybe half Hit Dice?



> Damage: The demilich gains an enhanced touch attack over that of its previous lich form (it now uses its entire flying skull to make the touch attack), including paralyzing touch. The demilich's touch attack uses negative energy to deal 10d6+20 points of damage to living creatures (no saving throw). Liches with other natural attacks lose them.




Definitely lose the other natural attacks, not sure about the additional negative energy damage, although we could halve it.



> Trap the Soul (Su):




Drop.



> Fear Aura (Su):






> Paralyzing Touch (Su):




Both same as lich.



> Perfect Automatic Still Spell (Ex): A demilich can cast all the spells it knows without gestures.




That is probably necessary.  



> Spell-Like Abilities: At will--astral projection, create greater undead, create undead, death knell, enervation, greater dispel magic, harm (usually used to heal itself), summon monster I-IX, telekinesis, weird; 2/day--greater planar ally. Demiliches use these abilities as casters of a level equal to their spellcaster level, but the save DCs are equal to 10 + demilich's HD + demilich's Charisma modifier.




Most of those are way too over-the-top.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 21, 2008)

Agreed to the OTT of the SLAs for the most part--but I think we should give them a few, maybe 3/day or 1/day. Like greater dispel magic, create undead and create greater undead. Telekinesis would also make sense.


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## Shade (Oct 21, 2008)

Added what we've got so far to Homebrews.

How about...

Spell-Like Abilities: 3/day—create undead, death knell, enervation, greater dispel magic, telekinesis; 1/day—create greater undead, harm (usually used to heal itself). Semiliches use these abilities as casters of a level equal to their spellcaster level, but the save DCs are equal to 10 + semilich's HD + semilich's Charisma modifier.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 22, 2008)

Those SLAs look good!


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## Shade (Oct 22, 2008)

Let's look at the rest of the demilich template...



> Damage Reduction (Su): A demilich loses any previous damage reduction and instead has damage reduction 15/epic and bludgeoning. Vorpal weapons, no matter their enhancement bonus, ignore this damage reduction but do only half damage to a demilich (demiliches cannot be beheaded).




Liches are 15/bludgeoning and magic.  We might want to just stick with that, and retain the vorpal bit.



> Immunities (Ex): Demiliches are immune to cold, electricity, polymorph, and mind-affecting attacks.




Same as lich.



> Magic Immunity (Ex): Demilichs are immune to all magical and supernatural effects, except as follows. A shatter spell affects a demilich as if it were a crystalline creature, but deals half the damage normally indicated. A dispel evil spell deals 3d6 points of damage (Fort save for half damage). Holy smite spells affect demiliches normally.




Liches have no magic immunity, or even spell resistance.  Perhaps we could give them a permanent form of the spell immunity spell (rendering immunity to the effects of one specified spell for every four levels it has)?



> Phylactery Transference (Su): Headbands, belts, rings, cloaks, and other wearable items kept in close association with the demilich's phylactery tranfer all their benefits to the demilich no matter how far apart the demilich and the phylactery are located. The standard limits on types of items utilized simultaneously still apply.




Thoughts on this?



> Resistances (Ex): Demiliches have acid resistance 20, fire resistance 20, and sonic resistance 20.




Liches have none of these.  We could go with resistance 5 or 10 as part of the transition.



> Turn Resistance (Ex): A demilich has +20 turn resistance.




A lich has +4.  Meet in the middle at +12, or is that too epic?  Maybe just +8?



> Abilities: A demilich gains +10 to Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma.




Liches have +2 to those scores.  Add +4 to all?



> Skills: Demiliches receive a +20 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot checks. Otherwise, same as the lich (this overlaps with the previous racial bonus gained by the lich; it does not stack).




Liches have +8 to those scores.  How about +12 (overlapping)?



> Epic Feats: Demiliches gain the feats Blinding Speed, Tenacious Magic, and Automatic Quicken Spell.




Since this isn't epic, I think we should dump these.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 22, 2008)

+8 turn resistance, retaining the vorpal thing, no epic feats, +12 to skills and the spell immunity ability all sound appealing.


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## Shade (Oct 22, 2008)

Updated.


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## freyar (Oct 23, 2008)

I like what you've got so far!

I vote no on the phylactery transference, and I think the phylactery should be the same as the usual lich.


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## Shade (Oct 23, 2008)

Updated.

Speed: Replace with fly x ft. (perfect) or the lich's supernatural (not natural) fly speed, whichever is better.  (A demilich is 180 feet, so maybe 90 feet?)

Damage: The semilich gains an enhanced touch attack over that of its previous lich form (it now uses its entire flying skull to make the touch attack), including paralyzing touch. The semilich's touch attack uses negative energy to deal x points of damage to living creatures (no saving throw). Liches with other natural attacks lose them.  (The demilich deals 10d6+20, so maybe 5d6+10?)

Organization: x. [Demilich is Solitary or consistory (1 demilich and 3-6 liches)]
Challenge Rating: Same as the lich +x.  (Demilich is +6; maybe +3?)
Level Adjustment: Same as the lich +x. (Demilich offers none; lich is +4; I'd estimate it at an additional +3 to +4)

Anything else before moving onto the sample creature?


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## freyar (Oct 23, 2008)

What did you think of flight being limited to a certain number of rounds per day to fit your earlier idea?

How about 5d6+1.5xCha for negative energy damage on the touch?

The consistory is good, but how about also a troupe like a lich (semilich + various other undead servants, maybe vampires).


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## Shade (Oct 23, 2008)

freyar said:


> What did you think of flight being limited to a certain number of rounds per day to fit your earlier idea?




I'm OK with that, and equally agreeable to simply giving it a fly speed similar to the demilich (albeit slower).



freyar said:


> How about 5d6+1.5xCha for negative energy damage on the touch?




Sounds good.



freyar said:


> The consistory is good, but how about also a troupe like a lich (semilich + various other undead servants, maybe vampires).




Sure.  I never liked how the lich was limited to vampires, but I'm all for undead servants.


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## freyar (Oct 23, 2008)

Let's go with the slower fly speed rather than anything complicated.

So, troupe (semilich plus various undead servants)?  Somehow I feel it should be more specific than that, but I'm having trouble coming up with something that's not too constraining.  1d4 intelligent undead of 10HD+ or 1d6 intelligent undead of less than 10HD plus 1d10 mindless undead of varying HD?


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## Shade (Oct 23, 2008)

How about simplifying it to "assorted undead with total Hit Dice of up to twice the semilich's Hit Dice"?

Did we decide on which of the following bolded bits works best?

Armor Class: The semilich retains the lich's +5 natural armor bonus and gains an insight bonus equal to *(Cha modifier/half its Hit Dice)*, as well as probable size adjustment to AC (for example, +4 for its new Diminutive size for a previously Medium lich).

Attacks: The semilich gains an insight bonus equal to *(Cha modifier/half its Hit Dice)* as a bonus on its touch attacks.


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## freyar (Oct 23, 2008)

That's a good simplification!

Well, since the demilich uses HD, let's use 1/2 HD.


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## Shade (Oct 23, 2008)

Updated.

Challenge Rating: Same as the lich +x. (Demilich is +6; maybe +3?)

Level Adjustment: Same as the lich +x. (Demilich offers none; lich is +4; I'd estimate it at an additional +3 to +4)


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## freyar (Oct 24, 2008)

Yeah, CR+3 is probably about right.  Not sure if maybe we should go LA - on these or not.  I'm sure there are people that would play one, but I'm sure they'd play a demilich too.


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## Shade (Oct 24, 2008)

Let's go ahead and give it LA +4, even though it would make an odd character.

Shall we apply the template to the sample lich in the Monster Manual?


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## freyar (Oct 24, 2008)

Good idea for the sample, so let's do that!


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## Shade (Oct 24, 2008)

Here we go...

Semilich, 11th-Level Human Wizard
Diminutive Undead (Augmented Humanoid)
Hit Dice: 11d12+3 (74 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: Fly 90 ft. (perfect)(18 squares)
Armor Class: 27 (+4 size, +3 Dex, +5 natural, +5 insight), touch 22, flat-footed 24
Base Attack/Grapple: +5/-7
Attack: Touch +14 melee (5d6+6 negative energy plus paralysis)
Full Attack: Touch +14 melee (5d6+6 negative energy plus paralysis)
Space/Reach: 1 ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: Damaging touch, fear aura (DC 19), paralyzing touch (DC 19), perfect automatic still spell, spells, spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 15/bludgeoning and magic, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to cold, electricity, polymorph, and mind-affecting effects, spell immunity (2 spells), +8 turn resistance, undead traits
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +6, Will +11
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 16, Con -, Int 23, Wis 18, Cha 19
Skills: Concentration +17, Decipher Script +16, Hide +31, Knowledge (arcana) +20, Listen +18, Move Silently +20, Search +22, Sense Motive +14, Spellcraft +22, Spot +18
Feats: Combat Casting, Craft Wondrous Item, Quicken Spell, Scribe Scroll, Silent Spell, Spell Focus (evocation), Still Spell, Toughness
Environment: Temperate plains
Organization: Solitary or troupe (semilich plus assorted undead with up to 22 total Hit Dice)
Challenge Rating: 16
Treasure: Standard coins; double goods; double items
Alignment: Neutral evil
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +8

_A gem-encrusted skull lies amid a few scattered bones on a large pile of dust. Suddenly, the skull rises into the air, the dust forming a column beneath it._

Combat

A semilich's natural weapons are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

The Will save against this lich's fear aura and damaging touch, and the Fortitude save against its paralyzing touch, have a DC of 19.

Spell-Like Abilities: 3/day—create undead, death knell (DC 25), enervation, greater dispel magic, telekinesis (DC 25); 1/day—create greater undead, harm (DC 25; usually used to heal itself). Caster level 11th.  The save DCs are equal to 10 + semilich's HD + semilich's Charisma modifier.

Wizard Spells Prepared (4/5/5/5/4/2/1; save DC 16 + spell level). 0-acid splash, detect magic, ray of frost*, touch of fatigue; 1st-expeditious retreat, magic missle (3), ray of enfeeblement; 2nd-mirror image, protection from arrows, scorching ray*, spectral hand, web; 3rd--dispel magic, fireball*, haste, lightning bolt*, vampiric touch; 4th-enervation, fear, ice storm*, shout*; 5th-cone of cold*, teleport; 6th-disentegrate.

*Because of Spell Focus (evocation) the save DC for these spells is 18 + spell level.

Possessions: Bracers of armor +4*, cloak of resistance +1*, potion of gaseous form, ring of protection +1*, scroll of summon monster IV (8th level), wand of magic missle (50 charges, 9th level).

Can no longer use; stat block modified accordingly.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 24, 2008)

That looks about right.


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## freyar (Oct 26, 2008)

Yeah, looks good.


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## Shade (Oct 27, 2008)

Great!  Moving on...

DM INTRODUCTION

In this scenario, drow woodworkers have manufactured a cauldron from a bole of the Great Tree, which has the power to generate undead from any corpse placed within it. The players must capture this item and purify it, using the items given them by Uriel, to allow its use in the cause of Good.

PROPERTIES OF BOLE-UNDEAD

The skeletons, zombies and wights born of the cauldron differ in some respects from their standard undead counterparts. Skeletons have 4 hit dice, zombies have 5 hit dice, and wights have 7+3 hit dice, attacking and saving at those levels. Skeletons and zombies have low intelligence, allowing them to react rather than mindlessly following an order. Zombies have limited speech ability, akin to a magic mouth spell-they can parrot anything their commander says, up to 25 words.

Bole-undead take the same damage as the normal types (skeletons take half damage from sharp and edged weapons). They take double damage (4d4) from each vial of holy water that hits them. Clerics attempting to turn bole-undead function three levels below their actual level (a 6th level cleric becomes a 3rd level for turning purposes). Use the following table to determine when a bole is turned.

Actual Level of Cleric: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 
Bole-skeleton: 19 16 13 10 7 4 T
Bole-zombie: 20 19 16 13 10 7 T
Bole-wight: - - - 20 19 16 10

All bole-undead radiate an unnatural odor which affects animals only, causing them to panic. Horses will buck and try to throw their riders, then retreat unless the rider makes a successful save vs. breath weapon. When killed, or when the bole is purified, bole-undead decay into dust instantly.

In each group of bole-undead, no more than four will be automatically turned. Turned bole-undead return to melee 3 rounds after the original turning.

*Bole-Skeleton*
#APP: ..as many as required--see text
AC: 7
MV: 12"
HD: 4
hp: 26
#AT: 1
THAC0: 15
D: 1d6 (sht swd)
Mag Res: --
Sv/wand: 15
Sv/spell: 16

*Bole-Zombie*
#APP: ..as many as required--see text
AC: 8
MV: 6"
HD: 5
hp: 31
#AT: 1
THAC0: 15
D: 1d8 (lng swd)
Mag Res: --
Sv/wand: 13
Sv/spell: 14

*Bole-Wight*
#APP: ..as many as required--see text
AC: 5
MV: 12"
HD: 7+3
hp: 42
#AT: 1
THAC0: ? [there is a typo here]
D: 1d4 (dgr)
Mag Res: --
Sv/wand: 12
Sv/spell: 13

Orginally appeared in Polyhedron Magazine #35 (1987),


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## freyar (Oct 28, 2008)

Is this basically a template for undead, then?  Maybe a small Int boost, some turn resistance, and  unnatural (odor) aura?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 28, 2008)

As written, they have more HD than the normal undead of their type. We might want to double racial HD, then have CR based on how many HD are added. Alternatively, we could give them a big Cha boost and unholy toughness, but that doesn't give them the better saves and attacks that the HD would.


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## Shade (Oct 28, 2008)

I think doubling the racial HD makes the most sense.   Are we talking about doubling the HD of the base zombie/wight/etc., or making this an alternate template to apply directly to a base creature?   I'm assuming the former, but just wanted to clarify.


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## freyar (Oct 28, 2008)

Actually, looks like +3 HD to me over the usual undead (human skels have 1HD, zombies have 2HD, wights have HD).  

Does the idea of a template fit then?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 28, 2008)

The former--increasing the HD of the base undead.


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## Shade (Oct 28, 2008)

Limit the template to skeletons, zombies, and wights, or expand it to include all corporeal undead?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 28, 2008)

Let's let it affect all corporeal undead. Makes for a bit of a change for empowering undead rather than merely advancing by HD.

Do we want to give them any other abilities? Strength boost, extra holy water vulnerability, perhaps some poison effect to go with their noisome odor? For the last, I'm thinking perhaps that on a successful hit, the target must save or be sickened.


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## freyar (Oct 29, 2008)

Also Int boost (particularly, mindless get animal Int probably), turning resistance -- maybe a stacking +1 or +2, maybe the magic mouth thing.


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## Shade (Oct 29, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Oct 29, 2008)

Ok, then:

Greater Vulnerability to Holy Water (Ex): Bole-undead take double damage from holy water (for example, a direct hit by a flask of holy water does 4d4 hp damage to a bole-undead).

Want to use Stench for the Noisome Odor, or combine that with Unnatural Aura?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 29, 2008)

Are we giving them stench like a troglodyte, or is it still just going to panic animals? If the latter, we should make it unnatural aura (or just call it noisome odor or something to differentiate it from both).


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## Shade (Oct 29, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> Are we giving them stench like a troglodyte, or is it still just going to panic animals? If the latter, we should make it unnatural aura (or just call it noisome odor or something to differentiate it from both).




I'd prefer the odor only affect animals, but give them a nauseating/sickening addition to their natural attacks (like "concentrated stench").

Whaddya think?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 29, 2008)

Sounds about right to me. Do we want to give animals a save against the unnatural aura? If so, do we want animals with scent to take a penalty to the save?


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## Shade (Oct 29, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> Sounds about right to me. Do we want to give animals a save against the unnatural aura? If so, do we want animals with scent to take a penalty to the save?




Yeah, that's a good idea.


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## Shade (Oct 30, 2008)

How do these look?

Noisome Odor (Ex): Animals, whether wild or domesticated, fear the unnatural odor of a bole-undead. They will not willingly approach nearer than 30 feet and if forced to do so, must succeed on a Will save or become panicked as long as they are within that range. Animals with the scent ability suffer a -4 circumstance penalty on their saving throws.

Sickening Strike (Ex): A creature struck by a bole-undead's natural attacks must succeed on a Fortitude save or be sickened for 10 rounds. Creatures that successfully save cannot be affected by the same bole-undead's sickening strike for 24 hours. A delay poison or neutralize poison spell removes the effect from the sickened creature. Creatures with immunity to poison are unaffected, and creatures resistant to poison receive their normal bonus on their saving throws.


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## freyar (Oct 30, 2008)

Is fear a mind-affecting effect always?  Well, here's a rough version.  I've broadened the effect a little to distinguish some from unnatural aura.

Noisome Aura (Ex): Bole-undead emit a strong odor that unnerves natural creatures.  An animal, vermin, humanoid, or giant that is either mindless or has Int 1 or 2 within 30 ft of a bole-undead must make a DC X Will save or become frightened of the smell for 1d6 rounds.  Regardless of the result of the save, the creature is unaffected by the same bole-undead's Noisome Aura for 24 hours.

Edit: Man, ninja'd by Shade!  I must not have refreshed my browser...  In any case, Shade's version is fine, but I think I'd like to add a sickening to Noisome Odor to further distinguish it from Unnatural Aura.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 30, 2008)

I think that the penalty for scent is enough of a differentation. Shade's writeups look quite good.


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## Shade (Oct 30, 2008)

Updated.

Do we want to do anything with this?



> In each group of bole-undead, no more than four will be automatically turned. Turned bole-undead return to melee 3 rounds after the original turning.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 30, 2008)

Greater turn resistance (Su): In addition to its +2 (?) turn resistance, a bole-undead recovers from being turned or rebuked in only five rounds, rather than ten as in most undead.


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## freyar (Oct 31, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> Greater turn resistance (Su): In addition to its +2 (?) turn resistance, a bole-undead recovers from being turned or rebuked in only five rounds, rather than ten as in most undead.



Just drop the +2 in case the base undead already has turn resistance, and it's golden.


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## Shade (Oct 31, 2008)

> Zombies have limited speech ability, akin to a magic mouth spell-they can parrot anything their commander says, up to 25 words.




Something like this?

Magic Mouth (Su): Formerly mindless undead gain a limited ability to repeat short messages from their master.  This functions like the magic mouth spell, except the message is permanent until the master chooses to give it a new message (or orders it to give no message).


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## freyar (Oct 31, 2008)

Also excellent!  I don't think we're missing anything else.

All the suggestions in the homebrews entry look good.  This is probably CR +1, do you agree?


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## Shade (Oct 31, 2008)

I agree.

Updated.

Are we ready to apply it to some sample undead?


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## freyar (Oct 31, 2008)

Yes!  Given the original text, maybe a skeleton, zombie, and wight if that's not too many.  Should be pretty simple to do, at least.


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## Shade (Oct 31, 2008)

*Bole-Skeleton, Human Warrior Skeleton *
Medium Undead 
Hit Dice: 4d12 (26 hp)  
Initiative: +7
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)  
Armor Class: 15 (+3 Dex, +2 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple +2/+3
Attack: Scimitar +3 melee (1d6+1/18–20) or claw +3 melee (1d4+1) 
Full Attack: Scimitar +3 melee (1d6+1/18–20) or 2 claws +3 melee (1d4+1)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. 
Special Attacks: Noisome odor (DC 9), sickening strike (DC 9)
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 5/bludgeoning, darkvision 60 ft., +2 greater turn resistance, greater vulnerability to holy water, immunity to cold, magic mouth, undead traits 
Saves: Fort +1, Ref +4, Will +4
Abilities: Str 13, Dex 17, Con —, Int 2, Wis 10, Cha 5
Skills: 7
Feats: Improved Initiative (B), 2 more
Environment: Any
Organization: Any
Challenge Rating: 1
Treasure: None 
Alignment: Always neutral evil
Advancement: —
Level Adjustment: —


Hmmm...it looks like we need to do something about the save DCs...the Cha boost for mindless undead isn't enough.  Maybe simply set Cha to 11 for mindless undead?  Or grant a +x racial bonus on save DCs?


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## freyar (Oct 31, 2008)

Let's say mindless undead go to Cha 11 or Cha+4, whichever is higher (don't sometimes mindless things have low to reasonable Cha?).


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 1, 2008)

Agree to default 11 or Cha +4, whichever is higher.


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## Shade (Nov 4, 2008)

Updated.

Our bole-skeleton needs 2 more feats and 7 skill ranks.


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## freyar (Nov 4, 2008)

Spot 4, Listen 3

Weapon Finesse, Combat Reflexes?  If we go with WFinesse, we might want to swap the scimitar for a rapier.


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 4, 2008)

Those suggestions sound good, although we might consider swapping Combat Reflexes with Weapon Focus.


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## freyar (Nov 5, 2008)

Weapon Focus (claw) or (rapier/scimitar)?  Either works for me.


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 5, 2008)

I think for the manufactured weapon. The claws already have the advantage of it making two attacks in one round.


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## Shade (Nov 7, 2008)

Updated.

For the sample bole-zombie, wanna use the Kobold Zombie, Human Commoner Zombie, or Troglodyte Zombie?


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## freyar (Nov 7, 2008)

I say the troglodyte.  It deserves to get its stench back. 

The skeleton looks good.


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 7, 2008)

Trog skeleton sounds good!


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## freyar (Nov 7, 2008)

Zombie, actually.

Starting up the stat-block:

*Bole-zombie, Troglodyte Zombie*
Medium Undead
Hit Dice: 7d12+3 (48 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares; can’t run)
Armor Class: 18 (+8 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 18
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+4
Attack: Greatclub +5 melee (1d10+1) or bite +4 melee (1d4+1) or slam +4 melee (1d6+1) or javelin +3 ranged (1d6+1)
Full Attack: Greatclub +5 melee (1d10+1) or bite +4 melee (1d4+1) or slam +4 melee (1d6+1) or javelin +3 ranged (1d6+1)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. 
Special Attacks: Noisome odor (DC 13), sickening strike (DC 13)
Special Qualities: Single actions only, damage reduction 5/slashing, darkvision 60 ft., undead traits, +2 greater turn resistance, greater vulnerability to holy water, magic mouth
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +2, Will +5
Abilities: Str 12, Dex 11, Con —, Int 2, Wis 10, Cha 11
Skills: Listen +5, Spot +5
Feats: Toughness *, Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Focus (greatclub)
Environment: Underground
Organization: Any
Challenge Rating: 2
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral evil
Advancement: —
Level Adjustment: —

I think that gets it.  Suggestions on skills and feats?  I'd likely go for the Spot/Listen split on skills, like the skeleton.*


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 7, 2008)

Er... yes. Looks pretty good.


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## Shade (Nov 9, 2008)

Spot and Listen sound good.

Cleave, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (greatclub)?


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## freyar (Nov 9, 2008)

Sounds good, and I've edited that in, if you want to copy/paste over to homebrews.


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## Shade (Nov 12, 2008)

Done.

Bole-Wight
Medium Undead
Hit Dice: 7d12 (26 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 17 (+3 Dex, +4 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+4
Attack: Slam +4 melee (1d4+1 plus energy drain)
Full Attack: Slam +4 melee (1d4+1 plus energy drain)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Create spawn, energy drain (DC 17), noisome odor (DC 17), sickening strike (DC 17)
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., +2 greater turn resistance, greater vulnerability to holy water, undead traits
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +5, Will +6
Abilities: Str 12, Dex 16, Con —, Int 11, Wis 13, Cha 19
Skills: Hide +13, Listen +13, Move Silently +21, Spot +13
Feats: Alertness, Blind-Fight, 1 more
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary, pair, gang (3–5), or pack (6–11)
Challenge Rating: 4
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always lawful evil
Advancement: 8 HD (Medium)
Level Adjustment: —


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 12, 2008)

Weapon Finesse.


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## freyar (Nov 12, 2008)

Agreed, and looks done.


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## Shade (Nov 21, 2008)

Updated.

Do we want to make any changes to their appearance (maybe a barklike appearance to their skin or something else indicating ties to a tree)?


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## freyar (Nov 21, 2008)

I don't know, that maybe seems a little too fey-like.  Smell would be a good thing to add. Maybe we could say that their stink smells like rotting vegetation or something?


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 21, 2008)

Agreed to rotting vegetable stink. Other than that, I don't think they need any more plantiness.


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## Shade (Dec 10, 2008)

*DREAMWEAVER*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Ethereal Plane
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Constant
DIET: None
INTELUGENCE: Average
TREASURE: Nil
AUGNMENT: Neutral good
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 10
MOVEMENT: 24, Fl 24(B)
HIT DICE: 1+1
THACO: 19
NO. OF ATTACKS: 0
DAMAGE/ATTACK: None
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Sleep, dreamweaving
SPECIAL DEFENSE: Protection from evil, ethereal
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Immune to mind-affecting spells
SIZE: M
MORALE: ELite (14)
X.P. VALUE: 420

The dreamweaver inhabits the Ethereal Plane, but is sometimes visible on the Prime Material as a glimmering, opalescent girl levitating and playing a gold harp. She visits those who have horrific, recurrent nightmares. The dreamweaver comes after the person is asleep and sings to soothe the nightmares by removing them from the sleeper's mind.

The effect this has on reality, however, is not so peaceful. As the dreamweaver spins her song, the nightmare appears on the Prime Material as a shade (see the 6th-level wizard spell). Whether the nightmare is a monster or a terrifying situation, it will affect those on the Prime Material as if they were dreaming the dream themselves.

Combat: The dreamweaver does not enter combat or defend herself. However, merely hitting her is a victory in itself. She is ethereal, and can only be attacked or subjected to spells by those on that plane. She is immune to mind-affecting spells, seeing through illusions and invisibility. She is shielded by protection from evil (preventing bodily attacks by visitors to the Ethereal Plane), and can extend this effect to any sleeping person, protecting the sleeper from the dream shades.

Once per round, the dreamweaver can cast a powerful sleep spell that affects one person. Only characters of 5th level or higher gain a saving throw against this effect. This sleep only affects living beings with minds, so undead, golems, and semi-real phantasms are immune.

Imagined dreams will hunt new prey until killed or dispelled against a 10th-level spellcaster. Even disbelief reduces the dream to 60 percent of normal effect (see the shades spell). All dreams remain in existence until the dreamer wakes or the dreamweaver is killed. If the dreamer dies, the dreams continue in reality until dispelled.

Habitat/Society: The dreamweaver is solitary. She may feel she gains friendship from those who sleep peacefully, but the sleepers don't know that.

Ecology: The dreamweaver exists only to help those who cannot enjoy the bliss of sleep. She has the mind and conscience of an innocent girl. She is unconcerned with the effects of her dreamweaving upon reality, except as they affect the sleeper.

Originally appeared in Polyhderon Magazine #138 (1999).


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## freyar (Dec 10, 2008)

Errm, Outsider?


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## Echohawk (Dec 10, 2008)

Must. Resist. Urge. To. Suggest. Deathless.


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## freyar (Dec 10, 2008)

Echohawk said:


> Must. Resist. Urge. To. Suggest. Deathless.



  It's actually a good idea.  The only thing is that I don't see any reason to think they were once alive.


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## Shade (Dec 10, 2008)

Agreed.  We're gonna have to find you some more deathless, though, even if it means a creature-by-poll!


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## freyar (Dec 10, 2008)

Outsider then?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 10, 2008)

Outsider seems best.


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## freyar (Dec 10, 2008)

Ok, that's decided I guess.

Ethereal with manifestation like a ghost?


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## Shade (Dec 10, 2008)

I think so.  It looks like average Int, Dex, and Str, decent Con (the "+1"), probably high Cha, and I'd imagine Wis somewhere between Int and Cha.


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## freyar (Dec 11, 2008)

Str 11 Dex 10 Con 14 Int 11 Wis 15 Cha 18?


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## Shade (Dec 12, 2008)

Sounds good.  I'll try to get a Homebrews started soon.


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## Shade (Dec 16, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Dec 17, 2008)

Next easy thing:



> She is shielded by protection from evil (preventing bodily attacks by visitors to the Ethereal Plane), and can extend this effect to any sleeping person, protecting the sleeper from the dream shades.




Continual protection from evil, can be dispelled but reinstated as a free action?


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## Echohawk (Dec 17, 2008)

Aside: Does this Dreamweaver need a name change to differentiate her from the Ravenloft Dreamweavers in _Nightmare Lands_ and later _Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Three_?


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## freyar (Dec 17, 2008)

If the others aren't Ethereal, we could go with "Ethereal Dreamweaver" if nothing else comes up.  That would follow along the example of ethereal filchers and marauders.


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## Echohawk (Dec 17, 2008)

Ethereal Dreamweaver works for me. The other dreamweavers originate from "the dream plane", and don't seem to be specifically ethereal.


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## Shade (Dec 18, 2008)

freyar said:


> Continual protection from evil, can be dispelled but reinstated as a free action?




Sure, or borrow from the angel's protective aura.

The name "Ethereal Dreamweaver" works for me.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 18, 2008)

Using the angelic aura as a base strikes me as a good idea.


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## freyar (Dec 18, 2008)

After looking at angels a little more closely the last couple of days, I agree.  We just need to specify that it extends in both the ethereal and material planes when manifested.

Should we work on the "dreamweaving" ability next?


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## Shade (Dec 18, 2008)

Like so?

Protective Aura (Su): Against attacks made or effects created by evil creatures, this ability provides a +4 deflection bonus to AC and a +4 resistance bonus on saving throws to anyone within 20 feet of the dreamweaver, and to anyone whose dreams the dreamweaver currently inhabits. Otherwise, it functions as a magic circle against evil effect with a radius of 20 feet (caster level equals dreamweaver's HD). This aura can be dispelled, but the dreamweaver can create it again as a free action on its next turn. (The defensive benefits from the circle are not included in the dreamweaver's statistics block.) 

This protective aura extends into both the Ethereal and Material Planes when the dreamweaver is manifested. 

Here's the dreamweaving bits... 



> She visits those who have horrific, recurrent nightmares. The dreamweaver comes after the person is asleep and sings to soothe the nightmares by removing them from the sleeper's mind.
> 
> The effect this has on reality, however, is not so peaceful. As the dreamweaver spins her song, the nightmare appears on the Prime Material as a shade (see the 6th-level wizard spell). Whether the nightmare is a monster or a terrifying situation, it will affect those on the Prime Material as if they were dreaming the dream themselves.
> 
> ...


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## freyar (Dec 18, 2008)

> Once per round, the dreamweaver can cast a powerful sleep spell that affects one person. Only characters of 5th level or higher gain a saving throw against this effect. This sleep only affects living beings with minds, so undead, golems, and semi-real phantasms are immune.



This seems like a separate ability.  It's not quite like sleep or deep slumber, though we could probably fake it with deep slumber.  Want to do deep slumber at will or write up a unique Su?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 18, 2008)

Yeah, it should be a unique Su. Do we want to keep the thing about 5th level characters? There's very little of that left in 3.x


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## freyar (Dec 19, 2008)

I don't know about the 5th level bit, but I don't think so.  Let's try a hefty racial bonus to make it hard to save against under 5th level.

Drowse? (Su): At will, an ethereal dreamweaver can target a single creature within 60 ft? with a powerful sleep effect.  The target must succeed on a DC X Will save or instantly fall asleep for 10 minutes?.  This is a mind-affecting compulsion.  The save DC is Charisma based and includes a +6? racial bonus.


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## Shade (Dec 23, 2008)

+6 seems awfully high.  How about +4, and maybe Ability Focus so it at least has to use a feat to get such a great bonus?


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## freyar (Dec 23, 2008)

Sounds fair to me.


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## Shade (Dec 23, 2008)

Updated.


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## freyar (Dec 23, 2008)

> She visits those who have horrific, recurrent nightmares. The dreamweaver comes after the person is asleep and sings to soothe the nightmares by removing them from the sleeper's mind.
> 
> The effect this has on reality, however, is not so peaceful. As the dreamweaver spins her song, the nightmare appears on the Prime Material as a shade (see the 6th-level wizard spell). Whether the nightmare is a monster or a terrifying situation, it will affect those on the Prime Material as if they were dreaming the dream themselves.
> 
> ...




Back to the rest of dreamweaving: shades is a 9th level spell in 3e.  So do we want to go with shadow conjuration or the greater version as the basis for this?


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## Shade (Dec 24, 2008)

The (lesser) shadow conjuration is probably closer to the target CR.


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## Shade (Jan 5, 2009)

Maybe it's the cold medicine, but I'm at a loss how to writeup this ability. Suggestions?


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## freyar (Jan 5, 2009)

Let's try this:

Dreamweaving (Su): As a standard action, a dreamweaver can establish a magical connection to a single sleeping character within 30 ft.  This soothes the dreams of the sleeping character.  If the character is sleeping normally, the rest heals one extra hp of damage per HD or one extra point of ability damage as chosen by the dreamweaver.  If the character's rest is troubled (for example, by a nightmare spell), dreamweaving grants a +10 bonus on any save to resist fatigue or other deleterious effects of troubled sleep.  The dreamweaver must maintain this connection as a free action each round for at least four continuous hours a night for the character to benefit.

However, dreamweaving has the side effect of turning nightmares into reality.   Each hour that a dreamweaver uses dreamweaving, it creates a shadow creature, as summon monster III emulated by the shadow conjuration spell at caster level 10, with the following exceptions.  The shadow creatures are not under control of the dreamweaver and are hostile to all creatures (with the exception of the dreamweaver and the character receiving the dreamweaving).  Also, once they are created, the shadow creatures persist until the dreamweaving ends.  If they are dispelled or destroyed, they are regenerated 1d4 rounds later. 

Probably this is a bit clunky.


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## Shade (Jan 6, 2009)

That's a great start!   We should probably make the origin of the "nightmare creature" somewhere random within, say, a mile?


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## freyar (Jan 6, 2009)

Sure!  Could also add that the monsters can be chosen from the SMIII list or selected by the DM.  Of course, by now this doesn't resemble summon monster much, but I guess treating it like a spell with CL 10 gives a target for dispelling.


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## Shade (Jan 7, 2009)

Updated.


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## freyar (Jan 8, 2009)

Looking good!  Are we missing any SAs?


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## Shade (Jan 8, 2009)

> She is immune to mind-affecting spells, seeing through illusions and invisibility.




It looks like we just need to add a continuous see invisibility.  I'll borrow one from the elementals of chaos.

Updated.

Skills: 32

Feats: 1

Advancement: x-x HD (Medium)

Dreamweavers speak x.


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## freyar (Jan 8, 2009)

2-4HD?  Common and Celestial?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 8, 2009)

Perhaps Negotiator as the feat?

And do we want the shadow creatures to regenerate in 1d4 rounds? Seems a bit much. 1d4 minutes, perhaps. 1d4 hours. That, at least, would trick the PCs into thinking they won, not trap them in an infinitely long battle.


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## Shade (Jan 8, 2009)

Good point.  Let's go with 1d4 minutes.

I like Negotiator for the feat.  Freyar's suggestions for advancement and languages sound good.

Split skill ranks among Diplomacy, Knowledge (the planes), Search, Sense Motive?


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## freyar (Jan 8, 2009)

1d4 minutes makes good sense.  The PCs will initially think they've won, but they're likely to realize later that something's up.

We need 4 more skills.  Spot, Listen, Knowledge (arcana), Concentration?

To justify Concentration, we can add a line to the first paragraph of dreamweaving: "A dreamweaver that is injured while dreamweaving must succeed at a Concentration check to maintain its connection to the recipient (DC is 10 plus damage dealt)."


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## Shade (Jan 8, 2009)

Good idea!   We should probably explicitly note that should her Concentration be interrupted, the nightmare creatures immediately disappear as well.


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## freyar (Jan 8, 2009)

Makes sense to me, go for it!


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 8, 2009)

I like that dreamweaving requires Concentration, and I like freyar's other skill suggestions as well.


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## Shade (Jan 8, 2009)

Updated.

CR 2?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 8, 2009)

CR 2 seems reasonable, but we might want to give her DR (5/magic?) to back it up.


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## Shade (Jan 8, 2009)

Sure.  Updated.

All done?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 8, 2009)

I'm inclined to say "yes".


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## freyar (Jan 9, 2009)

Shouldn't Sense Motive also be +10?  Otherwise looks good!  The CR seems fair, though I think these should be more of a negotiation encounter than a fight.


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## Shade (Jan 9, 2009)

Nope.  Sense Motive is Wis-based.


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## Shade (Jan 9, 2009)

This next conversion is one of those creatures with "fill in the blanks" options.  


A tymphanix, native to the elemental plane of earth, is kept here by the ettins [...] as a watchdog and an early-warning device.

"[...]Between you and the exit is a short creature that looks like a cross between a stone scorpion and a kettle drum. The gray creature clicks its pincers at you and drums its club-like tail against its top carapice, beating a warning."

*Tymphanix:* 1; AL N; IN Low; SZ L; MV 6"; AC 5; STs 13, STw 12; HD 7; hp 35; THAC0 13; #AT 2 pincers/1 club; Dmg 1d8/1d8/2d6; XPV 630.
Special Defenses: Immune to normal weapons; takes half damage (save for quarter) from fire, cold, and lightning attacks.
Notes: Drums on its hollow carapace to warn off strangers from its lair.

Originally appeared in Polyhedron #31 (1986).


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 9, 2009)

Hm... elemental or magical beast, ala a gargoyle? Either way, it should have the extraplanar subtype.

What do you think about the drumming being a racial bonus to Intimidate? A fear effect? Or just an alarm, ala a shrieker?


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## Shade (Jan 9, 2009)

I'm leaning toward elemental.

As for your drumming suggestions, any or all of them appeal to me.


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## freyar (Jan 9, 2009)

Shade said:


> Nope.  Sense Motive is Wis-based.




Doh!



Shade said:


> I'm leaning toward elemental.
> 
> As for your drumming suggestions, any or all of them appeal to me.




Elemental is ok, and I think the drumming should mostly just be an alarm.  A small racial Intimidate bonus makes some sense for it, though.


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## GrayLinnorm (Jan 9, 2009)

Agreed to elemental.  I also noted that these things are similar to stonesingers (MMIII).


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## freyar (Jan 9, 2009)

GrayLinnorm said:


> Agreed to elemental.  I also noted that these things are similar to stonesingers (MMIII).



We should make sure to distinguish them, then.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 9, 2009)

They might be related!


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## Shade (Jan 9, 2009)

Indeed.  Nice correlation.  

Speaking of the tralusk/stonesinger (I prefer its original name), its ability scores are Str 20, Dex 10, Con 18, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 18.

This thing is Low Int (5-7).

Maybe Str 17, Dex 10, Con 15, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 13?


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## freyar (Jan 9, 2009)

How many HD do the stonesingers have?  Are these lower, hence the drop in Str and Con?


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## Shade (Jan 9, 2009)

Yes, 9 HD and deadlier powers.


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## freyar (Jan 9, 2009)

Those abilities seem good, then.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 9, 2009)

Agreed to ability scores.


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## Shade (Jan 12, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.



> A tymphanix, native to the elemental plane of earth, is kept here by the ettins [...] as a watchdog and an early-warning device.




Racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks?   Improved Init as bonus feat?

Maybe give 'em tremorsense to jazz them up a bit?



> Special Defenses: Immune to normal weapons; takes half damage (save for quarter) from fire, cold, and lightning attacks.




DR 5/- or 5/magic?

Resistance to cold, electricity, and fire 10?  Or something like specialized improved evasion?

Improved grab/constrict (like scorpion)?

Burrow and/or climb speed?


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## freyar (Jan 12, 2009)

Shade said:


> Racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks?   Improved Init as bonus feat?
> 
> Maybe give 'em tremorsense to jazz them up a bit?



 Yes to all. 



> DR 5/- or 5/magic?
> 
> Resistance to cold, electricity, and fire 10?  Or something like specialized improved evasion?



 DR 5/- like earth elementals, I think.  I prefer normal resistance for the rest, though I could be convinced to change my mind.



> Improved grab/constrict (like scorpion)?
> 
> Burrow and/or climb speed?



Probably no on grab/constrict, but the extra movement modes sound good.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 12, 2009)

What freyar said. We could give them a stunning blow on their tail club x times per day.


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## freyar (Jan 12, 2009)

I like that idea!  Much more than improved grab/constrict.


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## Shade (Jan 12, 2009)

Updated.


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## freyar (Jan 12, 2009)

Drum gives +4 Intimidate?  3/day stunning strike? +8 racial Spot/Listen (they are selected as guards, after all)?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 12, 2009)

Agreed to all of the above. OK, maybe just a +6 to Listen and Spot, but I'm not too attached.


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## Shade (Jan 12, 2009)

Updated.

Can be summoned with summon monster VI or summon nature's ally VI?

Skills: Climb +11, Listen +6, Spot +6, 10 ranks

Feats: Improved Initiative (B), 3 more


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 12, 2009)

2 ranks each Listen and Spot, 6 ranks Intimidate.

Feats: Multiattack, Weapon Focus (tail club), Alertness.

The level of summons looks right to me.


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## Shade (Jan 12, 2009)

Updated.

Organization: Solitary?

Challenge Rating: 5?

Treasure: None?

Alignment: Always neutral?

Advancement: 8–15 HD (Large); 16-21 HD (Huge)?

A tymphanix is x feet long and weighs x pounds.

Tymphanix speak Terran?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 12, 2009)

Solitary seems right. Half treasure, to represent stuff dropped by its victims. I think CR 5 is the right ballpark.


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## freyar (Jan 12, 2009)

It all seems good.  Want to go a little smaller than a Large earth elemental?  Say 14 ft (including tail) and 4000 lb?


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## Shade (Jan 12, 2009)

Updated.

Anything left?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 12, 2009)

A little more flavor text would be nice. Do they have their own society, or are they just beasts? Does their racially intimidating nature translate to bullying and blustering, or are they shy and retiring creatures? Do they flee from combat if things don't go their way?


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## freyar (Jan 13, 2009)

They have an unsophisticated society, dominated by the largest and most overbearing.  They are not shy about entering melee combat, but they tend to be cowardly when reduced to 10 hp or less, usually attempting to flee.


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## Shade (Jan 13, 2009)

Good stuff!  I expanded on it a bit.  Updated.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 13, 2009)

OK, now I think we're done.


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## freyar (Jan 13, 2009)

I like the mock battles a lot!


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## Shade (Mar 9, 2009)

These next three might best be converted all at once...

*Bog Moss*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Tropical and temperate swamps and forests
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Non-
TREASURE: Incidental
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1-4
ARMOR CLASS: 9
MOVEMENT: 1
HIT DICE: 2
THACO: 19
NO. OF ATTACKS: 0
DAMAGE/ATTACK: Special
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: L (10' cube)
MORALE: Average (10)
XP VALUE: 175

*Forest Moss*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Tropical and temperate swamps and forests
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Night
DIET: Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Animal (1)
TREASURE: Incidental
ALIGNMENT: Neutral Evil
NO. APPEARING: 1-6
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVEMENT: 6
HIT DICE: 5
THACO: 15
NO. OF ATTACKS: 0
DAMAGE/ATTACK: Special
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: L (10' cube)
MORALE: Steady (11)
XP VALUE: 975

*Swamp Moss*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Tropical and temperate swamps and forests
FREQUENCY: Very Rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Animal (1)
TREASURE: Incidental
ALIGNMENT: Neutral Evil
NO. APPEARING: 1-4
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVEMENT: 3
HIT DICE: 8
THACO: 13
NO. OF ATTACKS: 0
DAMAGE/ATTACK: Special
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: L (10' cube)
MORALE: Steady (11)
XP VALUE: 2,000

Bog moss appears as a rich green mass of vegetable matter, usually found in approximately 10' cubes. The creature nestles in bowl-like earth and rock formations, making itself appear as a normal patch of moss upon the ground.

Combat: Unwary creatures who trod upon the moss fall into the mass of it, where they will be devoured. The bog moss' digestive juices inflict 10 points of damage per round until the victim dies and is ingested. The bog moss' body is more unstable than quicksand; creatures which fall into its body cannot gain purchase to climb out. It is difficult to rescue a trapped creature, as the bog moss' digestive juices also consume organic matter, including ropes and wooden poles. Only chains, metal cables, and magic might be employed successfully.

Habitat/Society: A bog moss prefers to locate where rich soil is within easy reach. Every spring, each bog moss produces about a dozen spores which fly off with the wind. Those landing on suitable soil quickly take root and begin to grow. As the bog moss grows beyond a 2' cube, it no longer needs roots, and they dissolve. A bog moss does not collect treasure. However, sometimes coins, armor and weapons can be found beneath a bog moss -- remnants of victims.

Ecology: Bog mosses eat dirt, other plants, and any creatures which fall into its mass. When meals become sparse, the plant exists through photosynthesis. The moss is especially fond of ferns.
Bog moss has no natural enemies. However, mages have been known to seek the moss' spores for use in magical elixirs and as spell components.

_Forest Moss:_ Forest moss is similar to bog moss. However, it is more mobile and actively seeks out creatures for food. Forest moss is sensitive to light and is more active in the evenings. It is only found in wooded areas, usually beneath large trees where there is plenty of shade.

_Swamp Moss:_ This more powerful form of bog moss requires a wet environment. Because so much of its body is water, it takes only half-damage from fire-based spells. Cold-based spells put the creature in a form of suspended animation.

Originally appeared in Polyhedron Magazine #67 (1992).


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## Shade (Mar 9, 2009)

It sounds similar to a gelatinous cube or living pool in how it traps prey.


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## Shade (Mar 10, 2009)

For determining ability scores, the closest creatures I can find are...

Mosslord (L, 20 HD): Str 33, Dex 12, Con 28, Int 15, Wis 18, Cha 19
Shambling Mound (L, 8 HD): Str 21, Dex 10, Con 17, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 9
Obliviax Mossling (D, 1 HD): Str 5, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 13, Cha 14


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## freyar (Mar 10, 2009)

Well, we've got three versions here.  Treat them as advanced versions plus a few tweaks?

For the base 2HD bog moss, maybe Str 12, Dex 7, Con 13, Int -, Cha 6, Wis 6?  I went lowish on Dex since they don't move much; we could up that for the "advanced" versions.


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## Shade (Mar 10, 2009)

Rather than give the larger ones high natural armor to account for the decent ACs, how about something along these same lines?

Airy (Ex): Since a plague brush is constantly turning over and its anatomy is made up of a (relatively) small amount of plant matter and lots of empty space, it is difficult to know where to attack the creature. Any melee or ranged attack with a piercing weapon directed at a plage brush has a 20% miss chance. The blow or missle may pass through the creature's body without harming it. Even a true seeing effect is useless for determining where and how to strike the creature.


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## freyar (Mar 10, 2009)

Maybe.  Or given the composition of their bodies, some hefty DR/bludgeoning.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 10, 2009)

Airy makes a certain amount of mechanical sense, but we'll want to change the wording. Thin on the ground?


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## freyar (Mar 10, 2009)

That could work.  Not that I'm opposed to some natural armor, either.


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## Shade (Mar 11, 2009)

Like so?

Thin on the Ground (Ex): Since a moss's anatomy is made up of a (relatively) small amount of plant matter and lots of empty space, it is difficult to know where to attack the creature. Any melee or ranged attack with a piercing weapon directed at a moss has a 20% miss chance. The blow or missle may pass through the creature's body without harming it. Even a true seeing effect is useless for determining where and how to strike the creature.


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## freyar (Mar 11, 2009)

Works for me!


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## Shade (Mar 11, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

However, a thought just occurred to me.  Would these work better as swarms of Fine plants?  They already have many swarm traits:  composed of numerous individual bits, a presumable space/reach of 10 ft., an attack based on surrounding others, and so on.


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## freyar (Mar 12, 2009)

Nearly immobile plant swarms that deal acid swarm damage?  Cool!  And you're right, I think it works.


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## Shade (Mar 12, 2009)

In that case, drop Str to 1 and boost Dex to 10-12 (like the mosslord, shambler, and obliviax)?


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## freyar (Mar 12, 2009)

Fine by me.  Swarm damage 1d6 plus 1d4 acid?  Or make it all acid?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 12, 2009)

I think that base damage plus acid damage is the way to go.


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## freyar (Mar 12, 2009)

Okedoke.  Then that's probably enough for the base 2HD swarm.  We'll obviously want to bump for the advanced ones.


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## Shade (Mar 12, 2009)

Updated.


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## freyar (Mar 12, 2009)

Anything else to these, really?  Want to do something with this? "However, mages have been known to seek the moss' spores for use in magical elixirs and as spell components."


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## Shade (Mar 12, 2009)

I'm wondering how to work this in...



> Unwary creatures who trod upon the moss fall into the mass of it, where they will be devoured. The bog moss' digestive juices inflict 10 points of damage per round until the victim dies and is ingested. The bog moss' body is more unstable than quicksand; creatures which fall into its body cannot gain purchase to climb out. It is difficult to rescue a trapped creature, as the bog moss' digestive juices also consume organic matter, including ropes and wooden poles. Only chains, metal cables, and magic might be employed successfully.




At the very least, we should probably add an acid entry (similar to oozes) in the combat section, noting what materials are affected.

And yes, the spell component bit would be worth adding to flavor text.  Maybe power components in spells used to control plants and/or deal acid damage?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 12, 2009)

Perhaps they can reduce the gold cost by 100 gp per for use in the creation of magic items involving acid? Potions of energy resistance, wands of acid arrow, etc.


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## Shade (Mar 13, 2009)

Sounds good.

For the acid, borrow from the g-cube?

Acid (Ex): A gelatinous cube’s acid does not harm metal or stone.


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## freyar (Mar 13, 2009)

Sounds good to me on both counts.


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## Shade (Mar 17, 2009)

Updated.

CR 1?

Organization: Solitary or patch (2-4 swarms)?

Anything else?


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## freyar (Mar 17, 2009)

That all sounds about right.

Camouflage to look like regular moss?  Decently high DC, I think, 20ish.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 17, 2009)

Agreed to camouflage.


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## Shade (Mar 17, 2009)

Updated.

Ready for the forest moss?


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## freyar (Mar 17, 2009)

Looks good, so we're ready!


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## Shade (Mar 18, 2009)

*Forest Moss*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Tropical and temperate swamps and forests
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Night
DIET: Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Animal (1)
TREASURE: Incidental
ALIGNMENT: Neutral Evil
NO. APPEARING: 1-6
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVEMENT: 6
HIT DICE: 5
THACO: 15
NO. OF ATTACKS: 0
DAMAGE/ATTACK: Special
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: L (10' cube)
MORALE: Steady (11)
XP VALUE: 975

_Forest Moss:_ Forest moss is similar to bog moss. However, it is more mobile and actively seeks out creatures for food. Forest moss is sensitive to light and is more active in the evenings. It is only found in wooded areas, usually beneath large trees where there is plenty of shade.

Originally appeared in Polyhedron Magazine #67 (1992).


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## freyar (Mar 18, 2009)

Boost HD, movement, swarm and/or acid damage.  Add light sensitivity?  I can' t say I'm dond of making them NE with Int 1, though.  If we want to give them Int (and why not?), I guess we also should add skills and feats.  I'm open to discussion, though.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 18, 2009)

Boost Int to 3 to accomodate the alignment.


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## freyar (Mar 19, 2009)

I'd slightly prefer Int -, but Int 3 is ok as well.


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## Shade (Mar 19, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

Boost swarm damage to 1d8 and acid to 1d6?

I raised Int, but none of the other scores.  Wanna boost Con slightly for additional hps?   Should other mental scores rise to more closely match Int?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 19, 2009)

Agreed to boosted con and mental ability scores--Wis 11, Cha 8? A 5d6 swarm does 2d6 damage, usually, so let's use that and 1d8 acid.


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## freyar (Mar 19, 2009)

Agreed to all the boosts.  Con 16?


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## Shade (Mar 19, 2009)

Updated.

Skills: 8

Feats: 2

Challenge Rating: x


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 19, 2009)

Ability Focus (distraction), Improved Initiative. Four ranks each in Hide and Move Silently.


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## freyar (Mar 20, 2009)

Agreed.  CR 4?


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## Shade (Mar 20, 2009)

Updated.

Time for swamp moss?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 20, 2009)

Let's go for it.


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## Shade (Mar 20, 2009)

*Swamp Moss*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Tropical and temperate swamps and forests
FREQUENCY: Very Rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Animal (1)
TREASURE: Incidental
ALIGNMENT: Neutral Evil
NO. APPEARING: 1-4
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVEMENT: 3
HIT DICE: 8
THACO: 13
NO. OF ATTACKS: 0
DAMAGE/ATTACK: Special
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: L (10' cube)
MORALE: Steady (11)
XP VALUE: 2,000

Swamp Moss: This more powerful form of bog moss requires a wet environment. Because so much of its body is water, it takes only half-damage from fire-based spells. Cold-based spells put the creature in a form of suspended animation.

Originally appeared in Polyhedron Magazine #67 (1992).


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## freyar (Mar 20, 2009)

The forest moss has an extra period in the second flavor text sentence (after a comma).

For swamp moss, start with forest moss, boost HD and maybe some stats, drop light sensitivity, and add fire resistance and a "slowing" vulnerability to cold (probably can rip that off a golem)?


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## Shade (Mar 20, 2009)

Sounds good.

+2 Con?

Raise swarm damage to 3d6 plus 1d10 acid?

Resistance to fire 5 or 10?


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## freyar (Mar 20, 2009)

Those boosts sound right.  Let's say resistance 5, since they're swarms.  Give them too much, and their CR will go sky-high.


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## Shade (Mar 20, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Mar 20, 2009)

Let's change the environment to swamps and marshes.

CR 7?  It's not quite as good as a hellwasp swarm, I think.

Speaking of hellwasps, should we make the Int of these and the forest moss dependent on a hp threshhold, like the hellwasp's Hive Mind?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 20, 2009)

Agreed to hive mind. Half damage from fire makes me think at least resistance 10, which is mitigated by the cold vulnerability. Instead of cold slowing them, how about paralysis? I'd rather give them 2d6 acid instead of 1d10, as well.


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## freyar (Mar 20, 2009)

That's fine, but then I think these jump to CR 8 or maybe even 9 compared to the hellwasps.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 20, 2009)

...you do realize that hellwasps also have fire resistance 10, right?


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## freyar (Mar 21, 2009)

Oh yeah, I saw that before and then forgot.  Hmmm, ok then, no more than CR 8, maybe a strong 7.


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## Shade (Mar 23, 2009)

Updated.

For the hive mind, stick with Int 3, or borrow Int 6 like the hellwasp?

Duration for cold paralyis?

I'm thinking CR 7, since these things are essentially hellwasp swarms with 4 less HD and far worse mobility.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 23, 2009)

Stick to Int 3. Paralyzed for 1 round per spell level?


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## Shade (Mar 23, 2009)

I like that mechanic.  Updated.

I also updated the forest moss with hive mind.

We need 1 more feat and 3 more skill ranks for the swamp moss.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 23, 2009)

Put the remaining ranks into Move Silently, and the feat as Skill Focus (Move Silently) or Stealthy


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## Shade (Mar 24, 2009)

Sounds good.  Updated. That takes care of the mosses.

Moving on...

*Plantman (Malatran Mold Man)*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Tropical/Swamps, moist jungle
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Tribe
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Average (8-10)
TREASURE: O, P
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 6-24 or 30-300
ARMOR CLASS: 4
MOVEMENT: 12
HIT DICE: 1 to 12
THAC0: By HD
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-4 + 1/level or by weapon
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: Medium/Large (4'-9')
MORALE: Average (8-10)
XP VALUE: Variable

Malatran plant men are medium to large sized, bipedal fungus creatures. They have sharp, thorn-like claws, and leaf-like tendrils form a fringe on their shoulders, abdomens, and limbs. A topknot of these tendrils sits at the apex of the plantman's head.

Malatran plantmen have brown skin and green tendrils. They are 4 feet tall, plus 1/2-foot per Hit Die. Although they do not have a spoken language, they communicate by sign language and vocalized cries, and can learn to understand Nubari and other languages (by lip reading) at the cost of a proficiency slot. Other hero characters can learn to understand (but not speak) the "Plantman language" at the cost of a proficiency slot.

Combat: Parties of plantmen hunt near their lairs. In the forest, plantmen blend in to their surroundings giving them the same ability to move silently and hide in shadows as rangers of their level. Plantmen will attack any form of animal life for food. Malatran plantmen will use their natural camouflage capabilities to ambush opponents.

Half of the plantmen in a group have 1 or 2 HD, while 25% have 3 or 4 HD. The rest are 5 or 6 HD (equal chances). For every 50 plantmen, there is a sub chief with 7 or 8 HD and 1d4+1 bodyguards of 5 HD each. Each tribe of plantmen is led by a chief with 10 HD and 2d4 bodyguards with 6 HD each. Half of the plantmen encountered carry spears, while the others use clubs or go without weapons (equal chances).

Chiefs can also attack with spores; victims must make a saving throw vs. poison or be paralyzed, dying in 5d4 minutes unless treated by a cure disease spell. Victims who die in this manner are reborn 1d4+20 hours later as plantmen with 6 HD. These individuals become the chief's bodyguards.

Plantmen larger than 7' tall suffer damage as large creatures but also gain the benefit of wielding two-handed weapons with one hand. They are immune to charm and electrical attacks, except for charm plants, and take half damage from waterbased attacks. Fire-based attacks cause double damage and require plantmen to make a saving throw vs. paralyzation or flee for 1d6 rounds before another save can be attempted. Player character plantmen can be fighters, rangers, wizards, priests, fighter/priests, or fighter/wizards. All plantmen heroes can move silently and hide in shadows as rangers when in forest terrain. Preserving the forest and natural habitat of plantmen is the primary reason that some plant men adventure and become Malatran heroes. Spell-casting plantmen are unable to use fire- or cold-based spells. Further, their healing spells are ineffective on animal-based life forms.

Habitat/Society: Plantmen form primitive, settled tribes. Theil lairs are usually found in the undrebrush of warm forests and jungles, though some tribes have lairs in underground places as well. Tribes are very territorial.

Plantmen co-exist well with plant and fungus life. They often use shriekers to guard their lairs, and plant men native to the lair can pass by those shriekers unnoticed. Russet plant is usually found in the vicinity of a plantman lair as well.

New Malatran plantmen are created by russet mold, by their leaders' spore attacks, or by budding from their leaders. Leaders are 10+ HD (and therefore non-adventuring) plantmen and can only bud if food is plentiful. Plantmen heroes are too young to bud new plantmen.

Plantmen have been known to associate with myconids, which view them as rustic cousins.

Ecology: Plantmen live by scavenging and hunting. They will eat meat in any condition, from fresh to carrion. In times of great need, they have been known to eat other plantmen, though they seldom attack members of their own or an allied tribe.

Plantmen can suffer from dehydration when adventuring outside of very moist, swampy areas. They must wet themselves twice a day or lose two Constitution points per missed bath. Lost Constitution points are regained at the rate of two points per bath. A waterskin provides enough water for a single wetting.

Originally appeared in Polyhedron #121 (1996).

Here's a web summary with a picture:
RPGA Living Jungle


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## freyar (Mar 24, 2009)

Mosses look good, I think.

Malatran "plantfolk": Start at 1 HD, advancing by HD to 12 (Large at 8-12) or by character class?


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## Cleon (Mar 24, 2009)

Apart from growing to a larger size, these are basically vegepygmies, so the Creature Catalogue stats for those monsters might be a good place to begin.


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## freyar (Mar 25, 2009)

Yeah, I think there are a few more special abilities for the Malatrans, but you're right.  Physical stats and natural armor should probably be the same (Str 11, Dex 14, Con 11).  These are a little more intelligent, so maybe boost mental stats to Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 11?


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## Cleon (Mar 25, 2009)

freyar said:


> Yeah, I think there are a few more special abilities for the Malatrans, but you're right.  Physical stats and natural armor should probably be the same (Str 11, Dex 14, Con 11).  These are a little more intelligent, so maybe boost mental stats to Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 11?




Hmm, one major difference between Vegepygmies and the Malatrans is that the latter get "+1 damage per level". I fancy keeping that trait, which means they'll have Str 12 or 13, +2 for every additional hit dice, or just Str 11+2*HD.

That would give a base Malatran Str 13, Dex 14, Con 11?

As for the mental stats, I'm divided as to the Wis 12, they've already got excellent physical stats and are supposed to be a PC-worthy race. I'd just give them Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 10.

I'll copy-and-paste the creature catalogue version of the vegepygmy into this thread and insert pointers for a few obvious changes.

Increase size to Medium, 7+ HD moldmen are size Large.
Base Hit Dice drops to 1 (with corresponding changes)
Tweak its natural armour up one to compensate for it losing its AC bonus for being Small.
Add vulnerablility to fire and fear fire to special qualities, remove immunity to piercing.
Chiefs (HD 10+) have a spore attack.

What do we do about the half-damage from water? Some kind of special quality?


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## Shade (Mar 25, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.  I boosted Str and Con slightly since they are a size larger than the vegepygmies.



> In the forest, plantmen blend in to their surroundings giving them the same ability to move silently and hide in shadows as rangers of their level. Plantmen will attack any form of animal life for food. Malatran plantmen will use their natural camouflage capabilities to ambush opponents.






> Chiefs can also attack with spores; victims must make a saving throw vs. poison or be paralyzed, dying in 5d4 minutes unless treated by a cure disease spell. Victims who die in this manner are reborn 1d4+20 hours later as plantmen with 6 HD. These individuals become the chief's bodyguards.




It sounds like chiefs should either be a sidebar or have their own statblock.



> Plantmen larger than 7' tall suffer damage as large creatures but also gain the benefit of wielding two-handed weapons with one hand.




Wield oversized weapons, or just write this off due to old editions not really using weapon size rules?



> They are immune to charm and electrical attacks, except for charm plants, and take half damage from waterbased attacks.




Plants are already immune to mind-affecting spells or abilities, so the first part is covered.   Immunity to electricity is a no-brainer.  What about the water-based attack bit?  



> Fire-based attacks cause double damage and require plantmen to make a saving throw vs. paralyzation or flee for 1d6 rounds before another save can be attempted.




Vulnerability to fire and maybe a Will save (DC = damage dealt) or become panicked if damaged by fire?



> All plantmen heroes can move silently and hide in shadows as rangers when in forest terrain.




Racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks in forest terrain?

Give 'em this ranger ability?

Camouflage (Ex): A ranger of 13th level or higher can use the Hide skill in any sort of natural terrain, even if the terrain doesn’t grant cover or concealment.



> Plantmen can suffer from dehydration when adventuring outside of very moist, swampy areas. They must wet themselves twice a day or lose two Constitution points per missed bath. Lost Constitution points are regained at the rate of two points per bath. A waterskin provides enough water for a single wetting.




Some variation of the sahuagin's water-dependent ability?


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## Shade (Mar 25, 2009)

Cleon - your post arrived in the long time it took me to complete mine. It looks like you noticed many of the same things, so I think we're on the right track.


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## Cleon (Mar 25, 2009)

Shade said:


> Cleon - your post arrived in the long time it took me to complete mine. It looks like you noticed many of the same things, so I think we're on the right track.




Yes, I noticed that to. Great minds think alike, and all that.



Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.  I boosted Str and Con slightly since they are a size larger than the vegepygmies.




I wouldn't boost Con myself. I'm imagining these plantmen as being taller and slimmer than Vegepygmies, but no tougher.



Shade said:


> It sounds like chiefs should either be a sidebar or have their own statblock.




I was going to propose giving the Chiefs a subentry similar to a Stone Giant Elder, and adding another subentry for "Plantmen Spellcasters".



Shade said:


> Wield oversized weapons, or just write this off due to old editions not really using weapon size rules?




As for the over 7' plantmen being struck as Large, I'd just make them Large monsters at 7-12 HD. I was thinking of giving them a non-standard Advancement scheme.



Shade said:


> Plants are already immune to mind-affecting spells or abilities, so the first part is covered. Immunity to electricity is a no-brainer. What about the water-based attack bit?




I'm sorely tempted to take away most of the Plant immunities (namely immunity to poison, paralysis, polymorph, stun and critical hits) and just leave them immunity to mind-affecting spells (except charm plant) and sleep. The main reason for this is that these are supposed to be a playable race, and a PC-race with all those immunities would have too high a level adjustment. Imagine it a vegetable equivalent of a warforged, a Plant-type monster that isn't invulnerable to half the conditions it's likely to face when adventuring.



Shade said:


> Racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks in forest terrain?
> 
> Give 'em this ranger ability?
> 
> Camouflage (Ex): A ranger of 13th level or higher can use the Hide skill in any sort of natural terrain, even if the terrain doesn’t grant cover or concealment.




Regarding racial skill bonuses, my original thought was just giving them the same as a Vegepygmy (+4 to Hide, Listen, Move Silently and Spot) but I think I like your suggestion of just Hide & MS better.

I don't think I'd bother with camouflage, if they're in a forest there's already plenty of cover.



Shade said:


> Some variation of the sahuagin's water-dependent ability?




Sounds good to me.

Anyhow, I've roughed out my ideas and I'll post the stats next.


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## Cleon (Mar 25, 2009)

*PLANTMAN (MALATRAN MOLD MAN)*
Medium Plant
*Hit Dice:* 1d8 (4 hp)
*Initiative:* +2
*Speed:* 30 ft. (6 squares)
*Armor Class:* 16 (+2 Dex, +4 natural) touch 12, flat-footed 14
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +0/+1
*Attack:* Claw +1 melee (1d4+1) or longspear +1 melee (1d8+1/x3) or spear +2 ranged (1d8+2/x3)
*Full Attack:* Claw +1 melee (1d4+1) or longspear +1 melee (1d8+1/x3) or spear +2 ranged (1d8+2/x3)
*Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft.
*Special Attacks:* None
*Special Qualities:* fear fire, low-light vision, immunities (charms & compulsions, electricity and sleep), vulnerability to fire, plant weaknesses
*Saves:* Fort +2, Ref +2, Will +0
*Abilities:* Str 13, Dex 14, Con 11, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 10
*Skills:* Hide +6*[_+14 in swamps or forest_], Listen +4, Move Silently +6, Spot +4
[_8 skill ranks, half in Listen and half in Spot_]
*Feats:* 1
*Environment:* Warm forest or swamp
*Organization:* Solitary, Gang (4-9), band (10-100 plus 2-5 5 HD bodyguards and one 7-8 HD sub-chief per 50 plantmen, plus one 10 HD chief), warband (6-24), or tribe (30-300 plus 2-5 5 HD bodyguards and one 7-8 HD sub-chief per 50 plantman, plus 2-8 6 HD bodyguards and one 10-12 HD chief)
*Challenge Rating:* 1?
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 2-6 (Medium); 7–12 HD (Large) or by character class - see below
*Level Adjustment:* ?

Proficient in simple weapons?

Plantman communicate with each other via sign-language, percussion and crude vocalisations, using the same language as Vegepygmies. They can learn to speak humanoid languages.

*Combat*

*Plant Weaknesses (Ex):* A plantman does not have all the standard immunities of the Plant type, it is affected normally by poison, paralysis, polymorph, stun and critical hits. It has a limited immunity to mind-affecting effects, being immune to charms and compulsions but normally affected by phantasms, patterns, and morale effects. It is immune to sleep.

*Skills: *Plantmen receive a +4 racial bonus to Hide and Move Silently, their racial bonus to Hide increases to +12 bonus when in a swampy or forested areas.

*Advancing a Plantman*
+2 Strength per extra Plant Hit Dice. +2 Con and +1 natural armour at 5 plant HD and another +2 Con +1 NA at 7 plant HD. Large size at 7 plant HD with -2 Dex and increased Space/Reach but no ability score or NA boosts.

Favoured class fighter?

*Plantmen Spellcasters*
Most plantmen clerics worship vegetable gods. Such priests can not cast fire or cold spells, and their spontaneous cure spells will only heal creatures of the Plant type.

*Chiefs*
 Add a special attack:
*Spores (Ex):*
 
*Plantmen as Player Characters*


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## freyar (Mar 26, 2009)

Generally, I like this, but I'm not sure the nonstandard advancement is quite necessary in this case (you can sell me on it, though ).  

Agreed to no camouflage.

We'll want the usual PC race block, too.


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## Cleon (Mar 26, 2009)

freyar said:


> Generally, I like this, but I'm not sure the nonstandard advancement is quite necessary in this case (you can sell me on it, though ).




My reasoning behind the nonstandard advancement is that it's a kind of cutdown savage species progression. That way, the hypothetical Plantman PC can advance in levels of Plantman or levels of their adventuring class.



freyar said:


> We'll want the usual PC race block, too.




Yes, I'll see what I can do.


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## Shade (Mar 26, 2009)

Cleon said:


> I wouldn't boost Con myself. I'm imagining these plantmen as being taller and slimmer than Vegepygmies, but no tougher.




I'm OK with that.



Cleon said:


> I was going to propose giving the Chiefs a subentry similar to a Stone Giant Elder, and adding another subentry for "Plantmen Spellcasters".




I agree with the Chief subentry, but think we need to drop the archaic limiters on spellcasting (like we do with most converted creatures).



Cleon said:


> As for the over 7' plantmen being struck as Large, I'd just make them Large monsters at 7-12 HD. I was thinking of giving them a non-standard Advancement scheme.




Yep, we decided on Large for the high end of the advancement scale.  



Cleon said:


> I'm sorely tempted to take away most of the Plant immunities (namely immunity to poison, paralysis, polymorph, stun and critical hits) and just leave them immunity to mind-affecting spells (except charm plant) and sleep. The main reason for this is that these are supposed to be a playable race, and a PC-race with all those immunities would have too high a level adjustment. Imagine it a vegetable equivalent of a warforged, a Plant-type monster that isn't invulnerable to half the conditions it's likely to face when adventuring.




I disagree.  The volodni and cactacae, for example, are both playable plant races with fairly low LAs.  I'm not fond of odd exceptions like this just for the sake of lowering LA (the warforged being a perfect example).



Cleon said:


> Regarding racial skill bonuses, my original thought was just giving them the same as a Vegepygmy (+4 to Hide, Listen, Move Silently and Spot) but I think I like your suggestion of just Hide & MS better.
> 
> I don't think I'd bother with camouflage, if they're in a forest there's already plenty of cover.




Fair enough.


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## freyar (Mar 26, 2009)

I'll let Shade decide on advancement.   But if you treat the plant HD as normal, you still get BAB increases, and we could note that they get ability increases based on total HD if played as a PC, etc.

I think I agree with Shade about the normal plant features.


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## Cleon (Mar 27, 2009)

Shade said:


> I agree with the Chief subentry, but think we need to drop the archaic limiters on spellcasting (like we do with most converted creatures).




I agree that it shouldn't be an innate restriction, but I like the notion of it being a religious/social bar. Hence my idea that standard plantmen worship gods that do not grant divine spells of fire, cold or healing non-plants, while leaving room open for standard spellcasters.



Shade said:


> I disagree.  The volodni and cactacae, for example, are both playable plant races with fairly low LAs.  I'm not fond of odd exceptions like this just for the sake of lowering LA (the warforged being a perfect example).




I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Immunity to mind-affecting, poison, paralysis, polymorph, sleep, stun and critical hits seems an extremely powerful boost for a PC class to me.

As you may have gathered by now, I like to bend the rules to fit the monster rather than the other way around so I think I'll stat up a lower LA version so we have an alternative for people who prefer it.

Speaking of Level Adjustment, what level adjustment do you think would be appropriate? I was thinking of around +2 or +3, since they have some handy immunities and respectable natural armour.

EDIT: Upon reconsidering I've decided LA +1 or +2 is probably closer, going by comparisons with low LA races.

I've started working on a "savage species" style level progression for 1-12 Hit Dice plantmen following my particular idiosyncracies, but it's not quite ready yet.

EDITED EDIT: Oh yes, I originally suggested Fighter for favoured class, since the 2E write-up has fighter listed twice, once by itself and once as a fighter-priest. However, upon reflection I prefer the idea of Ranger as the Plantmen's favoured class.

Although I've finished roughing out a PC block, as follows:

*Plantmen as Player Characters*


Strength +2, Dexterity +4.
Size Medium.
A plantman’s base land speed is 30 feet.
Low-light vision.
Racial Hit Dice: A plantman begins with one level of humanoid, which provide 1d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +0, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +2, Ref +0, and Will +0.
Racial Skills: A plantman’s plant levels give it skill points equal to 4 × (2 + Int modifier). Its class skills are Hide, Listen, Move Silently and Spot.
Racial skill bonuses: A plantman has a +4 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks, its racial bonus on Hide increases to +12 in swamp or forest terrain.
Racial Feats: A plantman’s plant levels give it one feat.
+4 natural armor bonus.
Automatic Languages: Plantman. Bonus Languages: Common, Elven.
Favored Class: Ranger.
Plant Weaknesses (Ex): A plantman does not have all the standard immunities of the Plant type, it is affected normally by poison, paralysis, polymorph, stun and critical hits. It has a limited immunity to mind-affecting effects, being immune to charms and compulsions (except for those which specifically affect Plants) but normally affected by phantasms, patterns, and morale effects. It is immune to sleep.
OR
Plant Traits (Ex): A plantman is immune to mind-affecting effects, poison, paralysis, polymorph, sleep, stun and critical hits.
[_To cover both my preferences and the competition's_]

Immunity to Electricity: A plantman takes no damage from electricity.
Vulnerability to Fire (Ex): A plantman takes 50% extra damage from fire.
Fear Fire (Ex): ?
Level adjustment +1? +2?


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## Shade (Mar 27, 2009)

Cleon said:


> I agree that it shouldn't be an innate restriction, but I like the notion of it being a religious/social bar. Hence my idea that standard plantmen worship gods that do not grant divine spells of fire, cold or healing non-plants, while leaving room open for standard spellcasters.




I don't mind it as a flavor text, as opposed to a hard-and-fast rule.



Cleon said:


> I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Immunity to mind-affecting, poison, paralysis, polymorph, sleep, stun and critical hits seems an extremely powerful boost for a PC class to me.




It does, but since we have precedent of other low-LA races, I'd rather not break the mold here.  If I were to revise all of them, though...



Cleon said:


> As you may have gathered by now, I like to bend the rules to fit the monster rather than the other way around so I think I'll stat up a lower LA version so we have an alternative for people who prefer it.




Sure, go for it.  It's always good to have alternatives.



Cleon said:


> Speaking of Level Adjustment, what level adjustment do you think would be appropriate? I was thinking of around +2 or +3, since they have some handy immunities and respectable natural armour.




The volodni and cactacae both have +2 LA, and both have nearly the same immunities and an additional special ability or two, so +1 or +2 would work.  I think I'd stick with +2 here as well, though, due to the immunities and the lack of any ability score penalties to offset the decent boosts (including Strength, which is "worth more").   By the Savage Species method, they'd actually have a much higher LA, but if you apply those same rules to most monsters WotC has done since 3.5, they generally understate them by a few points.



Cleon said:


> EDITED EDIT: Oh yes, I originally suggested Fighter for favoured class, since the 2E write-up has fighter listed twice, once by itself and once as a fighter-priest. However, upon reflection I prefer the idea of Ranger as the Plantmen's favoured class.




Ditto here.  Ranger for the win!

I also think that as 1-HD races, the stat block should reflect a 1st-level warrior (and thus the ability scores modifiers may end up different based upon the application of the standard array.

I'm thinking Str 13, Dex 10, Con 11, Int 9, Wis 12, Cha 8.
Then modify the racial modifiers to +4 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom.

Thoughts?

(As an aside, I think the vegepygmies could use an update, reducing them to 1-HD warriors as well).


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## freyar (Mar 27, 2009)

I think I agree with all of that, including proposed abilities.


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## Cleon (Mar 27, 2009)

Shade said:


> > Originally Posted by *Cleon*
> >
> >
> > _I agree that it shouldn't be an innate restriction, but I like the notion of it being a religious/social bar. Hence my idea that standard plantmen worship gods that do not grant divine spells of fire, cold or healing non-plants, while leaving room open for standard spellcasters._
> ...




Fine by me, that's more or less what I was aiming at.



Shade said:


> Ditto here.  Ranger for the win!




And the rangers score again! Winning the match three-nil.

Yes, it just seems appropriate. I imagine heroic Plantmen rangers picking Animal and Human as their favoured foes, the better to slay the herbivores which menace their tribe and "recruit" the local humans to become bodyguards.



Shade said:


> I also think that as 1-HD races, the stat block should reflect a 1st-level warrior (and thus the ability scores modifiers may end up different based upon the application of the standard array.
> 
> I'm thinking Str 13, Dex 10, Con 11, Int 9, Wis 12, Cha 8.
> Then modify the racial modifiers to +4 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom.
> ...




Right, I'm going to go the Savage Species increase-with-Plant-level route, with only exceptional individuals having character class levels and leave you to go the NPC Warrior class level route.

I'll probably break a few more molds on the way.

As for the ability scores, I was assuming the base Plantman was a "completely average" specimen with 11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10 stats plus +2 Str and +4 Dex rather than giving them the nonelite array, which I usually reserve for minor 'name' beasties.

As for the Vegepygmies, they started out with 2 hit dice in AD&D, so maybe 1 level in Plant and 1 level in Warrior?


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## Shade (Mar 27, 2009)

> Plantmen can suffer from dehydration when adventuring outside of very moist, swampy areas. They must wet themselves twice a day or lose two Constitution points per missed bath. Lost Constitution points are regained at the rate of two points per bath. A waterskin provides enough water for a single wetting.




How's this?  I based it off heat dangers, rather than drowning like the sahuagin.

Dampness Dependent (Ex): Plantmen must keep their bodies wet or become easily dehydrated.  Plantmen can survive in dry environments for 1 hour per 2 points of Constitution.  After that, it must make a Fortitude saving throw each hour (DC 15, +1 for each previous check) or take 1d4 points of nonlethal damage. Plantmen reduced to unconsciousness begin taking lethal damage (1d4 points per hour).  An application of 1 gallon of water is sufficient to re-wet the plantman's body.



> Fire-based attacks cause double damage and require plantmen to make a saving throw vs. paralyzation or flee for 1d6 rounds before another save can be attempted.




How's this?

Fear of Flames (Ex):  A plantman that suffers fire damage from an attack must succeed on a Will save (DC = damage dealt) or become panicked for 1d6 rounds.


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## Cleon (Mar 27, 2009)

Okay, I realize there are a couple of minor gaffs in my Plantman stats in post #711. I didn't give it extra reach for the longspear, and there are a few minor typos here and there.

Upon reflection, I think the 'rank and file' Plantmen will just have spears, and only the bodyguards and higher ranks will usually have longspears plus a bunch of standard spears for backup and throwing weapons.

Now I'll put the two different versions aside for a moment and talk about Special Abilities. We've got three to work out - Fear Fire, Water Dependency and the chief's Spore attack.

Now Shade suggested a variation of the sahuagin's Water Dependent ability.



> *Water Dependent: *Sahuagin can survive out of the water for 1 hour per 2 points of Constitution (after that, refer to the drowning rules)



That seems a bit harsh to me, since the original monster just loses 2 Con every 12 hours. I think it would be easier just tweaking the original text.



> Plantmen can suffer from dehydration when adventuring outside of very moist, swampy areas. They must wet themselves twice a day or lose two Constitution points per missed bath. Lost Constitution points are regained at the rate of two points per bath. A waterskin provides enough water for a single wetting.



How about:*Water Dependency (Ex):* Plantmen can suffer from dehydration outside of very moist, swampy areas. They must wet themselves twice a day or start taking 2 Constitution damage for every twelve hours they miss a wetting. In particularly arid conditions, they may dehydrate two or even three times faster, taking damage every 6 or 4 hours. A plantman can regain Constitution points lost from dehydration by wetting itself, regaining 2 points per bath. A standard jug or waterskin provides enough water to give a Medium sized plantman a single wetting (1 gallon), a Large plantman needs twice as much (2 gallons).

Note that plantmen do not need to drink water, these wettings are enough to satisfy their thirst.
​Now what about Fear Fire? Shade suggested a Will save versus DC=damage dealt, but I that would mean that 1 HD plantmen will not be running away very often (since they only average about 4 hp the highest DC of Fear Fire they face will be 3, any higher and they won't be able to run away!), while high HD plantmen may be running away too often, since they have poor Will Saves. (i.e. a 10 HD plantman will have about 65 hit points and a +3 will save, so it has a 50% chance of fleeing when it suffers 14 points of damage.)

Maybe make it a fixed DC? Or equal to the DC of any fire spell that hits them? Or maybe even both? Although making it 10+1 per X points of fire damage could be better, something like:*Fear Fire:* Plantmen have an instinctive terror of flame, if a Plantman suffers any damage from a fire attack they must make a Will save against a DC of 10 plus 1 for every five points of fire damage.
​Let's see how that works out:

1-4 fire damage, Fear DC10, 1-HD sap saves 55%, 10-HD chief saves 70%.
5-9 fire damage, Fear DC11, 1-HD saves 50%, 10-HD saves 65%.
10-14 fire damage, Fear DC12, 1-HD saves 45%, 10-HD saves 60%.
15-19 fire damage, Fear DC 13, 1-HD saves 40%, 10-HD saves 55%.
20-24 fire damage, Fear DC 14, 1-HD flees 35%, 10-HD flees 50%.

That looks about right to me. I'm thinking the tougher specimens are likely to get Iron Will to help overcome their terror.

That leaves a chief's Spores attack.




> Chiefs can also attack with spores; victims must make a saving throw vs. poison or be paralyzed, dying in 5d4 minutes unless treated by a cure disease spell. Victims who die in this manner are reborn 1d4+20 hours later as plantmen with 6 HD. These individuals become the chief's bodyguards.



Hmmm, there's no mention of how the chief delivers its spores - with a melee claw attack? scattering a cloud with a radius X? grappling a helpless foe and sticking tendrils in them? Nor does it say what kind of creatures its spores affect. Do they only transform Humanoids?

I'd like to limit the spore attack to a few times per day or week, maybe just once, so a high-level 'PC Plantman' can't quickly form a huge army of loyal bodyguards.

As for the mechanics, it reminds me a bit of a ghoul's special attacks:




> *Ghoul Fever (Su):* Disease—bite, Fortitude DC 12, incubation period 1 day, damage 1d3 Con and 1d3 Dex. The save DC is Charisma-based.
> 
> An afflicted humanoid who dies of ghoul fever rises as a ghoul at the next midnight. A humanoid who becomes a ghoul in this way retains none of the abilities it possessed in life. It is not under the control of any other ghouls, but it hungers for the flesh of the living and behaves like a normal ghoul in all respects. A humanoid of 4 Hit Dice or more rises as a ghast, not a ghoul.
> 
> *Paralysis (Ex):* Those hit by a ghoul’s bite or claw attack must succeed on a DC 12 Fortitude save or be paralyzed for 1d4+1 rounds. Elves have immunity to this paralysis. The save DC is Charisma-based.



So how do you think we should handle this?


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## Cleon (Mar 28, 2009)

Shade said:


> How's this?  I based it off heat dangers, rather than drowning like the sahuagin.
> 
> Dampness Dependent (Ex): Plantmen must keep their bodies wet or become easily dehydrated.  Plantmen can survive in dry environments for 1 hour per 2 points of Constitution.  After that, it must make a Fortitude saving throw each hour (DC 15, +1 for each previous check) or take 1d4 points of nonlethal damage. Plantmen reduced to unconsciousness begin taking lethal damage (1d4 points per hour).  An application of 1 gallon of water is sufficient to re-wet the plantman's body.




 Yes, I thought about basing it off the SRD heat dangers / thirst rules rather than follow the Con loss model of the original, it has the advantage that the tougher plantmen will last longer.

The basic approach looks right, but I'd be tempted to change the time periods a bit. The original version an average plantman would take ~5 days to die from dehydration, (assuming Con 10, losing 2 per twelve hours). This version a 1HD plantman is unlikely to last a day. (assuming Con 10 it will start suffering dehydration after 5 hours and will die after failing six Fort checks (it'll usually take six 1d4 damage rollsfrom 4 hp to -10 hit points). Also, does the re-wetting just stop it losing HP, or does it allow it to regain HP like in the original?

EDIT: Another point is it requires a lot of DC checks, which can get tedious with a high-HP plantman. I know this is following the lead of the SRD, but if you have say a 40 hp plant man it would, on average take twenty Fort save failures to die. That's an awful lot of die-rolling.



Shade said:


> How's this?
> 
> Fear of Flames (Ex):  A plantman that suffers fire damage from an attack must succeed on a Will save (DC = damage dealt) or become panicked for 1d6 rounds.




As I mentioned in my previous post, this would mean that a low HD plantman will almost never flee if its burned. e.g. a 1HD plantman has ~4 hps it can only take 1-3 fire damage without going unconscious, and it isn't likely to fail a DC 1-3 Will save.


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## Cleon (Mar 28, 2009)

Have we decided on alignment yet? The creature catalogue version of the vegepygmy is "Always Neutral" but upon reflection I agree with Shade that "Usually Neutral" is better, since prime-material sapients are very rarely of one fixed alignment in 3rd edition.


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## Cleon (Mar 28, 2009)

Oh, and here's a first stab at the Chief's spores ability, based off the creature catalogue writeup of the Russet Mold:*Spores (Ex):* Once per day, a plantman chief can release a cloud of spores in a 10-foot radius cloud. The spores do no harm to creatures of the Construct, Elemental, Outsider, Plant or Undead types, or creatures that possess immunity to disease. All others in the area must succeed at a Fortitude save (DC 17) or take 1d6 points of Constitution damage and be paralysed for 1d10 minutes. Another Fortitude save (DC 17) is required 10 minute later — even by those who succeeded at the first save — to avoid taking 3d6 points of Constitution damage.

Any fey, giant, humanoid or monstrous humanoid of Small size or larger that is killed by these spores will rise as a plantman 1d4+20 hours later. A Small-sized victim will become a 1-4HD plantman and a Medium or larger victim will become a 5-6 HD plantman.

A _diminish plant_ or _remove __disease _spell will delay the spores' Con damage and transformation for one hour per caster level, but does not prevent it, the spores will just take longer to turn the victim into a plantman. The spells _blight, heal, limited wish _or _wish _and_ miracle _or the psionic power _bend reality_ can completely remove the spores' contagion.
 
The save DC is constitution dependent.​Save DC is based on a 10 HD chief with Con 15.

Hmm, I like the basic structure but would prefer it to run more like a disease than a poison. I'll mull it over for a bit...

Okay, how about this for alternative take?
Once per day, a plantman chief can release a cloud of spores in a 10-foot radius cloud. The spores do no harm to creatures of the Construct, Elemental, Outsider, Plant or Undead types, or creatures that possess immunity to disease. All others in the area must succeed at a Fortitude save (DC 17) or be paralysed for 1d10 minutes, during which they take 1 points of Constitution damage per minute. Another Fortitude save (DC 17) is required every time the duration expires — even by those who succeeded at the previous save — to avoid taking another 1d10 minutes of paralysis during which they suffer 1 Con damage per minute. The victim must succeed in two consecutive saving throws to completely shake off the spores' infection.

 Any fey, giant, humanoid or monstrous humanoid of Small size or larger that is killed by these spores will rise as a plantman 1d4+20 hours later. A Small-sized victim will become a 1-4HD plantman and a Medium or larger victim will become a 5-6 HD plantman.

 A _diminish plant_ or _remove disease _spell will delay the spores' Con damage and transformation for one hour per caster level, but does not prevent it, the spores will just take longer to turn the victim into a plantman. The spells _blight, heal, limited wish_ or _wish_ and _miracle_ or the psionic power _bend reality_ can completely remove the spores' contagion.

 The save DC is constitution dependent.​


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## freyar (Mar 29, 2009)

I think I like an even higher DC for Fear of Fire.  10 + 1/2 points of damage or more even.

Cleon, I think a Con 10 plantfolk losing 2 points every 12 hours dies in 2.5 days, actually.  I'm not quite sure what I think about the dehydration.  I kind of prefer following the heat damage, but perhaps the hp lost should be greater since they're worse off in the heat than others.

I think the spores are looking ok.  Not sure if I prefer the "disease" or "poison" version.


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## Cleon (Mar 29, 2009)

freyar said:


> I think I like an even higher DC for Fear of Fire.  10 +1/2 points of damage or more even.




Maybe, but I don't want it to be so high even a mighty plantman hero will usually flee in terror if you stick a candle in him. The largest plantmen will have Will saves about +5-6 (9-12HD poor save, probably Iron Will), the weakest about +0 (1HD poor save). Maybe we should work out a 'flee percentage' and try to reverse engineer the DC. So what chance do we want for it to flee when struck by a candle, torch, _flaming sphere_ or _fireball_?

What about DC 5+1/2hp, that works out as follows:

Candle (1pt fire damage*) - Chief ignores? Sapling 20%? -> DC=5?
Torch (4 points damage*) Chief 10%? Sapling 35%? -> DC=7?
Flaming Sphere/Oil (10 points*) Chief 25%? Sapling 50%? -> DC=10?
5-dice Fireball (25 points*) Chief 60%? Sapling 85%? -> DC=17?

*damage includes the +50% for plantmen's Vulnerability to Fire. Chief +5 Will save, sapling +0 Will save.

Those percentages look about right to me.



freyar said:


> Cleon, I think a Con 10 plantfolk losing 2 points every 12 hours dies in 2.5 days, actually.  I'm not quite sure what I think about the dehydration.  I kind of prefer following the heat damage, but perhaps the hp lost should be greater since they're worse off in the heat than others.




Oops, I miscalculated for a once-a-day Con loss rather than twice-a-day.

Actually, it would be 3 days, since it takes 12 hours for them to start to dehydrate, and they'd lose 2 Con after the end of the next 12 hours, thus 2 Con damage at the end of the first day and 4 Con damage for each subsequent day (in two 12-hour installments).



freyar said:


> I think the spores are looking ok.  Not sure if I prefer the "disease" or "poison" version.




Yes, I'm divided as well, but am leaning toward the disease version since the russet mold is a living thing growing through and transforming the victim rather than a toxin.

EDIT: Oh, I was thinking about adding a note that immunity to or removal of the paralysis does not affect the Con damage. I also wondered about separate saves for the paralysis and the damage, but that seemed to fiddly to me.


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## freyar (Mar 29, 2009)

DC 5+1/2 damage seems pretty good if Shade also agrees.

Let's hold off on decisions about dehydration till Shade's back, too.


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## Cleon (Mar 29, 2009)

freyar said:


> DC 5+1/2 damage seems pretty good if Shade also agrees.
> 
> Let's hold off on decisions about dehydration till Shade's back, too.




Sounds good to me, I think I'll swipe it as is for my version. I'll hold off posting it until Shade's finished his, so as not to unduly influence him. (As is my usual won't I'm going a bit overboard, I'm mostly through writing up a Savage Species progression and a new spellcasting class for them, plus a sample bodyguard, subchief, chief and two classed Plantmen characters.)

Getting back to the spores attack, I was wondering about adding a bit about a Heal check to cure it. I'm also tempted to slow the progress down a bit, killing them in ten minutes is mighty fast. Maybe make the duration in hours and a low dice Con damage? Here's a revised version, it includes a bit about the new plantmen being friendly towards their sporedaddy:*Spores (Ex):* Once per day, a plantman chief can release a cloud of spores in a 10-foot radius cloud. The spores do no harm to creatures of the Construct, Elemental, Outsider, Plant or Undead types, or creatures that possess immunity to disease. All others in the area must succeed at a Fortitude save (DC 17) or be paralysed for [X time], during which they take [Y] points of Constitution damage per [Z time]. Another Fortitude save (DC 17) is required every time the duration expires — even by those who succeeded at the previous save — to avoid taking another [X time] of paralysis, during which they suffer [Y] Con damage per [Z time]. The victim must succeed in two consecutive saving throws to completely shake off the spores' infection.

  Any fey, giant, humanoid or monstrous humanoid of Small size or larger that is killed by these spores will rise as a plantman 1d4+20 hours later. A Small-sized victim will become a 1-4HD plantman and a Medium or larger victim will become a 5-6 HD plantman. These plantmen have no memory of their former lives, and begin their new life with a friendly attitude towards the chief who created them.

  Constitution damage caused by the spores cannot be healed until the spores' contagion is removed. The spells _blight, heal, limited wish_ or _wish_ and _miracle_ or the psionic power _bend reality_ can completely remove the spores' contagion, as does a DC27 Heal check (DC22 when combined with _diminish plant _ or _remove disease_). A DC17 Heal check will prevent one hour of paralysis and Con loss, while a _diminish plant_ or _remove disease _spell will delay the victim's Con damage, or their revival as a plantman, for one hour per caster level. This only delays the progress of the spores, it does not cure the victim. A _remove paralysis_ spell will allow the victim to function normally for one hour, but it does not delay the Con damage or transformation.

  The save DC and Heal checks are Constitution dependent.​(X=1d3 hours, Y=1d4, Z=hour) for 1d3 hours of paralysis with 1d4 Con damage per hour for every failed Fort save?


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## Shade (Mar 30, 2009)

Wow...lots to digest.

For fear fire, I think DC=10+damage dealt probably works fine, although normal save DC for a spell of that level would also work.  I'm not a fan of the nonstandard (imagine that!) 5 + 1/2 damage dealt.

For dehydration, I'd prefer nonlethal damage to Con damage.  Basing it off horrid wilting makes sense, too, since it deals extra damage to plants...

"This spell evaporates moisture from the body of each subject living creature, dealing 1d6 points of damage per caster level (maximum 20d6). This spell is especially devastating to water elementals and plant creatures, which instead take 1d8 points of damage per caster level (maximum 20d8)."

Maybe follow the heat dangers, but have them take 1d8 points of lethal damage rather than the usual nonlethal damage?


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## freyar (Mar 30, 2009)

How about normal save DC if the damage is from a spell and a fixed DC for mundane fire damage (or 10+damage)?

I like 1d8 lethal as horrid wilting.


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## Cleon (Mar 31, 2009)

freyar said:


> How about normal save DC if the damage is from a spell and a fixed DC for mundane fire damage (or 10+damage)?
> 
> I like 1d8 lethal as horrid wilting.




Hmm, let's have a look at the probabilities for the two approaches, using the same fire attacks and plantmen I used earlier (damage includes the +50% for plantmen's Vulnerability to Fire. Chief +5 Will save, sapling +0 Will save.), plus a couple of additions:

For Fear Fire DC = 10 + 1 per hit point.

Candle (1pt fire damage) DC 11; Chief saves 6+(75%), Sapling saves 11+ (50%)
Torch (4 fire damage) DC 14; Chief saves 9+(60%), Sapling saves 14+ (50%)
_ Flaming Sphere_/Oil (10 fire) DC20; Chief saves 15+(30%), Sapling saves 20 (5%)
5-dice _Fireball _(25 fire) DC35; Chief saves 20 (5%), Sapling saves 20 (5%)

For Fear Fire DC = Spell DC, assuming minimum casting abilities.

_Ray of Fire_ (0-level spell, Int 10) DC 10; Chief saves 5+(80%), Sapling saves 10+ (55%)
_Burning Hands_ (1st-level, Int 11) DC 11; Chief saves 6+(75%), Sapling saves 11+ (50%)
_Flaming Sphere_ (2nd-level, Int 12) DC13; Chief saves 8+(65%), Sapling saves 13+ (40%)
 5-dice _Fireball_ (3rd-level, Int 13) DC14; Chief saves 9+ (60%), Sapling saves 14+ (35%)

_Ray of Fire_ is just a _Ray of Frost_ cantrip that does fire damage. A 1st level _Burning Hands_ does 1-6 damage to a plantman, once their Vulnerability to Fire is included, it averages out the same as 1d6.

The DC=10+hp version looks way too difficult to me, even the brave chiefs will be fleeing more than fighting when faced with fire wielding foes.

The DC=Spell DC version looks a lot better. the likelihood of the Plantmen saving seems a bit high, but it doesn't allow for superior casters with higher stats and spell DC boosting feats or items, which would significantly tip the odds against our vegetative friends.

So, how about DC = spell DC for magical fire, and a flat DC10 for nonmagical fire?


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## Shade (Mar 31, 2009)

Cleon said:
			
		

> So, how about DC = spell DC for magical fire, and a flat DC10 for nonmagical fire?




I think that will work nicely.


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## Cleon (Apr 1, 2009)

Shade said:


> I think that will work nicely.




Yes, it's easily explainable if a Plantman's fear of fire is psychological it could view a mundane candle the same as a forest fire. But magical fire is _unnatural_, and hence, more terrifying - and the more potent the magic the more unnaturally terrifying it becomes.

So, what's the modified Fear of Flames? Something like:*Fear of Flames (Ex): *A plantman that suffers fire damage from an attack must succeed on a Will save (DC = 10 for nonmagical fire, DC of spell or supernatural attack for magical fire) or become panicked for 1d6 rounds.​


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## freyar (Apr 1, 2009)

That looks great to me!


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## Shade (Apr 2, 2009)

Updated.

I think the chief deserves a separate writeup (similar to the myconid leaders).


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## freyar (Apr 2, 2009)

I'll agree to that.  CR 1/2?  Bonus languages seem good.  50 to 300 lb?

Skills: Swim
Feats: Weapon Finesse or Weapon Focus (spear)


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## Cleon (Apr 3, 2009)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> I think the chief deserves a separate writeup (similar to the myconid leaders).




I thought we'd already settled on a separate writeup for the chief? That's what I'm doing for my alternative version.

Regarding the update, I would only have the +12 racial bonus boost in swamps & jungle apply to Hide. Having it on Move Silently as well seems a bit too much to me.

I'm a bit curious as to why you listed Draconic amongst the bonus languages - are there a lot of green dragons and jungle kobolds living alongside the plantfolk?



freyar said:


> I'll agree to that.  CR 1/2?  Bonus languages seem good.  50 to 300 lb?
> 
> Skills: Swim
> Feats: Weapon Finesse or Weapon Focus (spear)




Gah, why didn't I think of putting Swim on my version's racial skill list, it's such an obvious selection for a swamp-dweller. Excuse me while I run off and add it...

Hide and Move Silently are pretty obvious, as is Swim. Climb, Listen, Spot or Survival all seem appropriate to round it out.

I agree with the one-half Challenge Rating.

As for weight, I reckon the smallest 4½ foot tall Plantmen would be a bit heavier than that, 75-100 pounds. The biggest ones (the 12HD 10 footers) should weigh around 825-1100 pounds, assuming they grow evenly in all dimensions. I'm thinking a short Plantman will be stocky (like real-world pygmies) while a tall plantman would be slimmer, so I'm thinking 100-800 pounds at the moment.

As for your feat options, I'd go for Weapon Focus, since once a Plantman grows larger it will lose the advantage of Weapon Finesse as its Str overtakes its Dex.


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## Shade (Apr 6, 2009)

Cleon said:


> I thought we'd already settled on a separate writeup for the chief? That's what I'm doing for my alternative version.




We may have.  I've gotten a bit confused with the two different versions.  



Cleon said:


> Regarding the update, I would only have the +12 racial bonus boost in swamps & jungle apply to Hide. Having it on Move Silently as well seems a bit too much to me.




Sounds good.



Cleon said:


> I'm a bit curious as to why you listed Draconic amongst the bonus languages - are there a lot of green dragons and jungle kobolds living alongside the plantfolk?




Lizardfolk!

Updated.


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## freyar (Apr 6, 2009)

Do these just need flavor and description before we move on to the chief?


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## Shade (Apr 7, 2009)

I believe so.  I'll see if I can write some up this morning.   And of course, feel free to offer suggestions.


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## Cleon (Apr 10, 2009)

The basic Plantman looks fine to me. So it's only the flavour to finalize and then on to the Chief.

Although there is one thing I've been wondering about, in light of Wizards naming policy shouldn't we be calling them Plantfolk now. 

Plantfolk sounds a bit rustic to me, what about the more urbane members of the vegetative community? Perhaps we should call them Plantpersons, just to be on the safe side.


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## freyar (Apr 10, 2009)

I'd kind of assumed these would become plantfolk.  They seemed rustic enough to me...


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## Shade (Apr 10, 2009)

Updated with name change and flavor text.


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## Cleon (Apr 10, 2009)

freyar said:


> I'd kind of assumed these would become plantfolk.  They seemed rustic enough to me...




Well my version are going to remain Plantmen, proud of their asexual masculinity.

(EDIT: or is it masculine asexuality?)



Shade said:


> Updated with name change and flavor text.




The Will save should be +2 instead of 1 (+0 from 1st level Warrior, +2 from Wis 14), and the Strength doesn't work out - if its Str 13 with +2 racial adjustment the final score should be Str 15.

The rest of it looks fine.


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## Shade (Apr 10, 2009)

Good catches!

The Str scores are actually correct...the error lies in the "as characters" section.  Way upthread we decided to drop the racial bonus to Strength after switching to the standard array.

Updated.

Moving on to the chiefs...

We know that they have 10 HD.  Do we want to stat them up as unique 10-HD plant creatures, or as plantfolk with 10 levels in some character class?


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## freyar (Apr 11, 2009)

I get a "distinct monster" kind of vibe from the chiefs.


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## Cleon (Apr 11, 2009)

Shade said:


> Good catches!
> 
> The Str scores are actually correct...the error lies in the "as characters" section.  Way upthread we decided to drop the racial bonus to Strength after switching to the standard array.
> 
> ...




In my version I've statted Chiefs as 10-HD Plant creatures, so just for the sake of having an alternative take I'd quite like a character-class version. (I've statted up one of those up too, but as a 'Plantman Hero' not a 'Regular Chief').

So, 10th level warrior, fighter or ranger? Or maybe split the difference and have the "Shady Plantchief" a 5-HD Large Plant with five levels of fighter or ranger?


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## Shade (Apr 13, 2009)

freyar said:


> I get a "distinct monster" kind of vibe from the chiefs.




I think I'm leaning that way too.



Cleon said:


> In my version I've statted Chiefs as 10-HD Plant creatures, so just for the sake of having an alternative take I'd quite like a character-class version. (I've statted up one of those up too, but as a 'Plantman Hero' not a 'Regular Chief').
> 
> So, 10th level warrior, fighter or ranger? Or maybe split the difference and have the "Shady Plantchief" a 5-HD Large Plant with five levels of fighter or ranger?




I'll take a look at what you've got, and go from there.  

I'll leave the "alternate to your alternate" up to you.


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## Cleon (Apr 14, 2009)

Shade said:


> I think I'm leaning that way too.
> 
> I'll take a look at what you've got, and go from there.
> 
> I'll leave the "alternate to your alternate" up to you.




I was leaving off posting my alternative until you've finished yours, so as to not warp your interpretation (so the alternative will be more alternative, so I can pinch ideas from it ). I can PM what I've got so far to you if you like.

As far as I can see, the most important issue regarding the Plant-Chief is the Spores attack, and I've already posted two takes on that - 'Spores like Poison' and 'Spores like Disease' - see posts *#724*  in *#728*.


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## Shade (Apr 14, 2009)

Fair enough!  We can compare end results.  

For the spores, I think I'd look to the vrock for inspiration...

Spores (Ex): A vrock can release masses of spores from its body once every 3 rounds as a free action. The spores automatically deal 1d8 points of damage to all creatures adjacent to the vrock. They then penetrate the skin and grow, dealing an additional 1d4 points of damage each round for 10 rounds. At the end of this time, the victim is covered with a tangle of viny growths. (The vines are harmless and wither away in 1d4 days.) A delay poison spell stops the spores’ growth for its duration. Bless, neutralize poison, or remove disease kills the spores, as does sprinkling the victim with a vial of holy water.



> Chiefs can also attack with spores; victims must make a saving throw vs. poison or be paralyzed, dying in 5d4 minutes unless treated by a cure disease spell. Victims who die in this manner are reborn 1d4+20 hours later as plantmen with 6 HD. These individuals become the chief's bodyguards.




I think the vrock's model works fairly well, except I'd drop bless and holy water (as the plantman isn't inherently evil).  I agree with adding a Heal check.  I'm not fond of the limitations by creature types (other than for the "create spawn" portion).


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## freyar (Apr 14, 2009)

I think the vrock model is the way to go, though perhaps these spores are more potent (how often can the chief release them?).  Maybe create spawn as a separate entry, as normal for undead?


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## Shade (Apr 14, 2009)

Cleon's suggestion for Con damage (mixed with the paralysis we should retain) seems like a good deadly alternative.

And I agree that create spawn should be a separate entry.


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## freyar (Apr 14, 2009)

Sounds good.  Maybe we want to reduce spores to a bit less often than a vrock, though, or these might be a bit too high CR for their HD (comparing to vrock).  Unless BAB and melee damage are way lower.


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## Cleon (Apr 17, 2009)

Shade said:


> Fair enough!  We can compare end results.
> 
> For the spores, I think I'd look to the vrock for inspiration...
> 
> ...




Basing it on the Vrock sounds a good alternative. I'd be tempted to throw in a Fortitude Save and increase the area of effect - Fort Save to reduce its effectiveness since (a) a Plantchief is probably 3-4 CR lower than a Vrock and (b) I shudder at the thought of an auto-paralyze attack; area of effect because it makes it makes it more likely it will get an opportunity to use its Special Attack. After all, in most circumstances those 'adjacent squares' will be occupied by its plantmen followers & bodyguards.

The big question, of course, is frequency and damage. The original vrock does an average of 29.5 hit points of damage with no save or attack roll required, but it's very unlikely to kill and 'moldify' any opponents who have any healing support due to its slow 1d4/round progress. Useful in combat and for 'recruiting' captured foes, but not a potential party-killer.

Having a Con-damage spore cloud has the opposite effect, if it does high Con damage in a respectable area there's a good chance it'll wipe out the party's melee types, especially if it can discharge them more than once in a melee (which is possible if it can do this once/3 rounds, assuming it spores in the first round and can survive a bit).

Also, if we go along the Con damage path then it'll be a lot easier to use a poison model of doing X Con damage in the first round and Y Con damage after 10 rounds than A Con damage in the first round and B Con each round for 10 rounds.

Overall I'll vote for the hp/round model, just for the sake of being different.


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## freyar (Apr 17, 2009)

I'd definitely think there should be a save.  Perhaps 2; there could be a separate save vs the paralysis and against the damage, whether that's hp or Con.  I kind of like the poison model for Con damage, but I don't know if I like Con or hp damage better.


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## Shade (Apr 28, 2009)

How about a save vs. paralysis and supernatural disease (like mummy rot) dealing Con damage (to better simulate the death in 5-20 minutes and retain the fact that cure disease eliminates the threat)?


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## freyar (Apr 28, 2009)

That would work great for me.


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## Shade (Apr 30, 2009)

Attempting to summarize...

Spores (Ex): A plantfolk chief can release masses of spores from its body once every 3 rounds as a free action. The spores expose all creatures adjacent to the chief to its moldering. 

Moldering (Ex): Disease—spores, Fortitude DC x, incubation period 1 minute; damage 1dx Con and paralysis. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Unlike normal diseases, moldering continues until the victim reaches Constitution 0 (and dies) or is cured. 

An afflicted humanoid who dies of moldering rises as a 6 HD plantfolk 24 hours later. A humanoid who becomes a plantfolk in this way retains none of the abilities it possessed in life. It is under the control of the plantfolk chief that created it, and serves as the chief's bodyguard until its death.


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## freyar (May 1, 2009)

Looks reasonable to me.


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## Shade (May 1, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.



> Half of the plantmen in a group have 1 or 2 HD, while 25% have 3 or 4 HD. The rest are 5 or 6 HD (equal chances). For every 50 plantmen, there is a sub chief with 7 or 8 HD and 1d4+1 bodyguards of 5 HD each. Each tribe of plantmen is led by a chief with 10 HD and 2d4 bodyguards with 6 HD each.






> Plantmen co-exist well with plant and fungus life. They often use shriekers to guard their lairs, and plant men native to the lair can pass by those shriekers unnoticed. Russet plant is usually found in the vicinity of a plantman lair as well.




Change organization line as follows?

Organization: Solitary, hunting party (6-24), or tribe (30-300 plus 1 chief and 2-8 6 HD bodyguards and one 7th-8th level subchief per 50 adults plus 0-5 shriekers)


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## freyar (May 1, 2009)

Sounds good.  Add flavor that they know how to pass shriekers without disturbing them?


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## Shade (May 1, 2009)

Indeed.  And the common presence of patches of russet mold.

So, that org line works for the regular plantfolk.  How about the chief?

Organization:  Tribe (1 chief plus 30-300 plantfolk and 2-8 6 HD bodyguards and one 7th-8th level subchief per 50 adults plus 0-5 shriekers)


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## freyar (May 4, 2009)

Sounds good!


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## Shade (May 4, 2009)

Updated plantfolk and chief.

Chief Skills: 26

Chief Feats: Weapon Focus (spear), 3 more


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## freyar (May 4, 2009)

Spot 9, Listen 9, Survival 8?

Track, maybe Ability Focus (moldering) if that's not too strong already, Power Attack?


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## Shade (May 5, 2009)

Updated.

Challenge Rating: *?

Advancement: By character class?

Level Adjustment: +4?


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## freyar (May 5, 2009)

CR 7?  The rest sounds good.


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## Shade (May 6, 2009)

Heh. I actually meant that asterix to be an 8, but the shift key must've stuck.  CR 7 works, though.  

Updated.

Anything else?  Should we describe how a chief comes to be?   Is one simply born to be a chief, or does a normal plantfolk advance by HD until it becomes strong enough to stake its claim?


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## freyar (May 6, 2009)

The stats look done.  As for the flavor, I think I like the advancement idea.  But there can only be one chief per tribe -- a prospective chief either has to find a new tribe or wait until the previous chief dies.


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## Melatuis (May 6, 2009)

Do these cratures have a favorite (sic) class?


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## Shade (May 7, 2009)

Melatuis said:


> Do these cratures have a favorite (sic) class?




We gave the standard plantfolk ranger as a favored class, but should probably note that in the chief's entry as well.

Updated.

Does anything remain?


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## Melatuis (May 7, 2009)

I missed the regulare plantfork favorite class.

Thanks for adding it to the chief.


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## freyar (May 7, 2009)

Looks good if we change "However, But each tribe has a single chief" to "However, each tribe has but a single chief."


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## Shade (May 7, 2009)

However, But I fixed it.


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## Cleon (May 8, 2009)

My apologies for not posting in this thread recently. I kept a watch on it for a week or two after my last post but got distracted by other things, so I didn't notice when it revived.

Anyhows, Shades take on the plantfolk and chief looks good to me except for one minor quibble. The base 1HD plantfolk should have Base Attack/Grapple: +0/+1 since its BAB is 3/4 its hit dice, not the listed +1/+2, and all its attack lines should therefore be cut by one.

I like the name 'Moldering' for the Chief's special attack, and the addition of Shriekers to the organization line. I think I'll stick something about shriekers and russet mold into my take on the monster.

I'll post my version shortly, I've got some work and other chores to finish off. My take is a bit more complicated and rule-bending than Shades, but there are quite quite a few similarities.


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## Shade (May 8, 2009)

Cleon said:


> Anyhows, Shades take on the plantfolk and chief looks good to me except for one minor quibble. The base 1HD plantfolk should have Base Attack/Grapple: +0/+1 since its BAB is 3/4 its hit dice, not the listed +1/+2, and all its attack lines should therefore be cut by one.




Not in this case, since it's a 1st-level warrior, thus gaining that class's BAB of +1.



Cleon said:


> I'll post my version shortly, I've got some work and other chores to finish off. My take is a bit more complicated and rule-bending than Shades, but there are quite quite a few similarities.




I look forward to seeing it.


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## Cleon (May 9, 2009)

Shade said:


> Not in this case, since it's a 1st-level warrior, thus gaining that class's BAB of +1.




Oh right, I remember you mentioning the possibility of making the basic plantman a warrior a few score posts ago, but the implications of the "Most plantfolk encountered outside their homes are warriors" bit didn't register.

In that case it raises a different niggle. You've put two skill points in Move Silently right? That's a cross-class skill for Warriors, so shouldn't it get one rank for +3 MS (once its +2 Dex bonus is thrown in), instead of two ranks for +4?

[EDIT]
Come to think of it, there are SRD 1st level warriors that don't heed cross-class skill considerations. e.g. the SRD Kobold has 1 rank in Listen, Hide, Move Silently & Spot despite none of these being Warrior skills. So, the SRD itself is breaking its own rules r.e. the "All listed skills are class skills, unless the creature has a character class (noted in the entry)." section of *Reading The Monster Entry*.

Strange I never noticed that before. The easiest fix would be to say that they are "racial skills" and just note such in the "X as characters" entry.
[END EDIT]

I'm a bit confused by the explanation of plantfolk/chief advancement. The Chief entry says "Plantfolk chiefs arise from the ranks of plantfolk that advance by HD", but their Advancement only mentions by character class. Shouldn't it have 11-12 HD (Large) in there as well?

There's also a slight implication that plantfolk which don't advance by Plant HD (e.g. regular warriors) can't become chiefs, although I don't think that can be right if chiefs advances by character class.



Shade said:


> I look forward to seeing it.




It's basically finished, so I expect I'll post it tonight if nothing goes horribly wrong.


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## Cleon (May 9, 2009)

*Plantman (Malatran Mold Man)*

*PLANTMAN (MALATRAN MOLD MAN)*
Medium Plant
*Hit Dice:* 1d8 (4 hp)
*Initiative:* +2
*Speed:* 30 ft. (6 squares)
*Armour Class:* 16 (+2 Dex, +4 natural) touch 12, flat-footed 14
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +0/+1
*Attack:* Claw +1 melee (1d4+1) or spear +2 melee (1d8+1/x3) or club +1 melee (1d6+1) or spear +3 ranged (1d8+1/x3)
*Full Attack:* Claw +1 melee (1d4+1) or spear +2 melee (1d8+1/x3) or club +1 melee (1d6+1) or spear +3 ranged (1d8+1/x3)
*Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft.
*Special Attacks:* None
*Special Qualities:* Fear of flames, immunities (charms & compulsions, electricity and sleep), low-light vision, moisture dependency, plant weaknesses, vulnerability to fire
*Saves:* Fort +2, Ref +2, Will +0
*Abilities:* Str 13, Dex 14, Con 11, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 10
*Skills:* Hide +6*[_+14 in swamps or forest_], Listen +2, Move Silently +6, Spot +2, Swim +3
*Feats:* Weapon Focus (spear)
*Environment:* Warm forest or swamp
*Organization:* Solitary, Gang (4-9), band (10-100 plus 2-5 5 HD bodyguards and one 7-8 HD sub-chief per 50 plantmen, plus one 10 HD chief), warband (6-24), or tribe (30-300 plus 2-5 5 HD bodyguards and one 7-8 HD sub-chief per 50 plantman, plus 2-8 6 HD bodyguards and one 10-12 HD chief)
*Challenge Rating:* 1/2
*Treasure:* Standard
*Alignment:* Usually neutral
*Advancement:* 2-6 (Medium); 7–12 HD (Large) or by character class - see below
*Level Adjustment:* +1

Plantmen are proficient with in simple weapons, they have no proficiency in armour or shields.

An average plantman stands 4½ feet tall and weighs around 100 pounds, they grow approximately 6 inches taller for every additional Hit Dice, reaching a maximum size of about 10 feet tall and 1000 pounds.

Plantman communicate with each other via sign-language, percussion and crude vocalisations, using the same language as Vegepygmies. They can learn to speak humanoid languages.

*Combat*
Malatran plantmen prefer to attack by ambush, making good use of their natural stealth. They are resolute fighters, it takes overwhelming power, heavy casualties or their fear of flames to drive them away.

Plantmen settlements are usually protected by crude traps and fortifications such as pits, pungi-stakes and palisades, plus 'tame' shriekers and patches of russet mold. There will be 1d6-1 shriekers and 2d4 patches of russet mold for every 50 plantmen in a settlement.

*Fear of Flames (Ex):* A plantman that suffers fire damage from an attack must succeed on a Will save (DC = 10 for nonmagical fire, DC of spell or supernatural attack for magical fire) or become panicked for 1d6 rounds.

*Plant Weaknesses (Ex):* A plantman does not have all the standard immunities of the Plant type, it is affected normally by poison, paralysis, polymorph, stun and critical hits. It has a limited immunity to mind-affecting effects, being immune to charms and compulsions (except for those which specifically affect Plants) but is normally affected by phantasms, patterns, and morale effects. It is immune to sleep effects. 

*Moisture Dependency (Ex): *Plantmen can suffer from dehydration outside of very moist, swampy areas. They must wet themselves twice a day or start taking 2 Constitution damage for every twelve hours they miss a wetting. In particularly arid conditions, they may dehydrate two or even three times faster, taking damage every 6 or 4 hours. A plantman can regain Constitution points lost from dehydration by wetting itself, regaining 2 points per bath. A standard jug or waterskin provides enough water to give a Medium sized plantman a single wetting (1 gallon). A Large plantman needs twice as much water (2 gallons).

Note that these wettings are enough to satisfy a plantman's thirst, they do not have to drink fluids as well.

*Skills: *Plantmen receive a +4 racial bonus to Hide and Move Silently, their racial bonus to Hide increases to +12 bonus when in a swampy or forested areas.

[_8 skill ranks, 2 in Listen, 2 in Move Silently, 2 in Spot, 2 in Swim_]

*Advancing Plantmen
*Most plantmen advance by increasing their levels in Plant. They can achieve up to 12 Hit Dice in plant, becoming bodyguards at 5-6 Hit Dice, sub-chiefs at 7-9 Hit Dice and Chiefs at 10 or more Hit Dice. As a plantman advances it gradually loses its Plant Weaknesses special quality, eventually gaining all the immunities of the Plant type. A sub-chief or larger plantman is a Large creature, while the chiefs gain a special Spore attack. Typical examples of a plantman bodyguard, sub-chief and chief are given below, with further details on their progression in levels of Plant under *Plantmen as a Savage Species Class*. 

Extraordinary plantmen may advance according to character class. The favoured class of such plantmen is ranger, with the classes of druid, cleric and wizard being the next most popular, in diminishing order of frequency.

*Plantmen Spellcasters*
Most plantmen clerics worship vegetable gods. Plantmen druids often belong to a variant class, the Plantpriest. Such priests do not cast fire or cold spells, and can spontaneous cast cure or inflict spells which only affect creatures of the Plant type. See Plantpriest, below for more details.

 *Plantmen as Player Characters*


Strength +2, Dexterity +4.
Size Medium.
A plantman’s base land speed is 30 feet.
Low-light vision.
Racial Hit Dice: A plantman begins with one level of Plant, which provide 1d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +0, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +2, Ref +0, and Will +0.
Racial Skills: A plantman’s Plant levels give it skill points equal to 4 × (2 + Int modifier). Its class skills are Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot and Swim.
Racial Skill Bonuses: A plantman has a +4 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks, its racial bonus on Hide increases to +12 in swamp or forest terrain.
Racial Feats: A plantman’s plant levels give it one feat.
Proficiency in simple weapons.
+4 natural armour bonus.
Automatic Languages: Plantman. Bonus Languages: Common, Draconic, Elven, Sylvan.
Favoured Class: Ranger.
Fear of Flames (Ex): A plantman that suffers fire damage from an attack must succeed on a Will save (DC = 10 for nonmagical fire, DC of spell or supernatural attack for magical fire) or become panicked for 1d6 rounds.
Immunity to Electricity (Ex): A plantman takes no damage from electricity.
Plant Weaknesses (Ex): A plantman does not have all the standard immunities of the Plant type, it is affected normally by poison, paralysis, polymorph, stun and critical hits. It has a limited immunity to mind-affecting effects, being immune to charms and compulsions (except for those which specifically affect Plants) but normally affected by phantasms, patterns, and morale effects. It is immune to sleep.
Vulnerability to Fire (Ex): A plantman takes 50% extra damage from fire.
Moisture Dependency (Ex): Plantmen can suffer from dehydration outside of very moist, swampy areas. They must wet themselves twice a day or start taking 2 Constitution damage for every twelve hours they miss a wetting. In particularly arid conditions, they may dehydrate two or even three times faster, taking damage every 6 or 4 hours. A plantman can regain Constitution points lost from dehydration by wetting itself, regaining 2 points per bath. A standard jug or waterskin provides enough water to give a plantman a single wetting (1 gallon). Note that these wettings are enough to satisfy a plantman's thirst, they do not have to drink fluids as well.
Level adjustment +1
 *
ADVANCED **PLANTMEN
**
**PLANTMAN BODYGUARD
*Medium Plant
*Hit Dice:* 5d8+5 (27 hp)
*Initiative:* +1
*Speed:* 30 ft. (6 squares)
*Armour Class:* 16 (+1 Dex, +5 natural) touch 11, flat-footed 15
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +3/+6
*Attack:* Claw +6 melee (1d4+3) or longspear +7 melee (1d8+4/x3) or morningstar +6 melee (1d8+4) or spear +4 ranged (1d8+3/x3)
*Full Attack:* Claw +6 melee (1d4+3) or longspear +7 melee (1d8+4/x3) or morningstar +6 melee (1d8+4) or spear +4 ranged (1d8+3/x3)
*Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft. (10 ft. with longspear)
*Special Attacks:* None
*Special Qualities:* Fear of flames, immunities (electricity, mind-affecting effects, sleep, stun and critical hits), low-light vision, moisture dependency, plant weaknesses, vulnerability to fire
*Saves:* Fort +5, Ref +2, Will +3
*Abilities:* Str 17, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 10
*Skills:* Hide +8*[_+16 in swamps or forest_], Listen +4, Move Silently +8, Spot +4, Swim +5
*Feats:* Iron Will, Weapon Focus (longspear)
*Environment:* Warm forest or swamp
*Organization:* Solitary, Gang (4-9), band (10-100 plus 2-5 5 HD bodyguards and one 7-8 HD sub-chief per 50 plantmen, plus one 10 HD chief), warband (6-24), or tribe (30-300 plus 2-5 5 HD bodyguards and one 7-8 HD sub-chief per 50 plantman, plus 2-8 6 HD bodyguards and one 10-12 HD chief)
*Challenge Rating:* 3
*Treasure:* Standard
*Alignment:* Usually neutral
*Advancement:* 6 (Medium); 7–12 HD (Large) or by character class - see above
*Level Adjustment:* +2

[_16 skill ranks, 3 each in Hide & Move Silently, 4 each in Listen & Spot, 2 in Swim_]

*PLANTMAN SUB-CHIEF
*Large Plant
*Hit Dice:* 7d8+14 (45 hp)
*Initiative:* +1
*Speed:* 30 ft. (6 squares)
*Armour Class:* 16 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +6 natural) touch 10, flat-footed 15
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +5/+13
*Attack:* Claw +8 melee (1d6+4) or longspear +8 melee (2d6+6/x3) or morningstar +8 melee (2d6+6) or spear +5 ranged (2d6+4/x3)
*Full Attack:* Claw +8 melee (1d6+4) or longspear +8 melee (2d6+6/x3) or morningstar +8 melee (2d6+6)or spear +5 ranged (2d6+4/x3)
*Space/Reach:* 10 ft./10 ft. (20 ft. with longspear)
*Special Attacks:* None
*Special Qualities:* Fear of flames, immunities (electricity, mind-affecting effects, paralysis, poison, sleep, stun and critical hits), low-light vision, moisture dependency, plant weaknesses, vulnerability to fire
*Saves:* Fort +7, Ref +5, Will +4
*Abilities:* Str 19, Dex 12, Con 15, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 10
*Skills:* Hide +8*[_+16 in swamps or forest_], Listen +4, Move Silently +8, Spot +4, Swim +6
*Feats:* Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Weapon Focus (longspear)
*Environment:* Warm forest or swamp
*Organization:* Solitary, Gang (4-9), band (10-100 plus 2-5 5 HD bodyguards and one 7-8 HD sub-chief per 50 plantmen, plus one 10 HD chief), warband (6-24), or tribe (30-300 plus 2-5 5 HD bodyguards and one 7-8 HD sub-chief per 50 plantman, plus 2-8 6 HD bodyguards and one 10-12 HD chief)
*Challenge Rating:* 4
*Treasure:* Standard
*Alignment:* Usually neutral
*Advancement:* 8–12 HD (Large) or by character class - see above
*Level Adjustment:* +3*
*
[_20 skill ranks, 7 in Hide, 3 in Move Silently, 4 in Listen, 4 in Spot, 2 in Swim_]

*PLANTMAN CHIEF
*Large Plant
*Hit Dice:* 10d8+20 (65 hp)
*Initiative:* +1
*Speed:* 30 ft. (6 squares)
*Armour Class:* 16 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +6 natural) touch 10, flat-footed 15
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +7/+16
*Attack:* Claw +11 melee (1d6+5) or longspear +12 melee (2d6+7/x3) or morningstar +11 melee (2d6+7) or spear +7 ranged (2d6+5/x3)
*Full Attack:* Claw +11 melee (1d6+5) or longspear +12/+7 melee (2d6+7/x3) or morningstar +11/+6 melee (2d6+7)  or spear +7/+2 ranged (2d6+5/x3)
*Space/Reach:* 10 ft./10 ft. (20 ft. with longspear)
*Special Attacks:* Spores
*Special Qualities:* Fear of flames, immunities (electricity, mind-affecting effects, paralysis, poison, polymorph, sleep, stun and critical hits), low-light vision, moisture dependency, plant weaknesses, vulnerability to fire
*Saves:* Fort +9, Ref +6, Will +5
*Abilities:* Str 21, Dex 12, Con 15, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 10
*Skills:* Hide +9*[_+17 in swamps or forest_], Listen +6, Move Silently +9, Spot +6, Swim +7
*Feats:* Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Quick Draw, Weapon Focus (longspear)
*Environment:* Warm forest or swamp
*Organization:* Solitary, Gang (4-9), band (10-100 plus 2-5 5 HD bodyguards and one 7-8 HD sub-chief per 50 plantmen, plus one 10 HD chief), warband (6-24), or tribe (30-300 plus 2-5 5 HD bodyguards and one 7-8 HD sub-chief per 50 plantman, plus 2-8 6 HD bodyguards and one 10-12 HD chief)
*Challenge Rating:* 6
*Treasure:* Standard
*Alignment:* Usually neutral
*Advancement:* 10-12 HD (Large) or by character class - see above
*Level Adjustment:* +4

*Combat:*
*Spores (Ex):* Once per day, a plantman chief can release a cloud of spores in a 10-foot radius cloud. The spores do no harm to creatures of the Construct, Elemental, Outsider, Plant or Undead types, or creatures that possess immunity to disease. All others in the area must succeed at a Fortitude save (DC 17) or be paralysed for 1d3 hours, during which they take 1d4 points of Constitution damage per hour. Another Fortitude save (DC 17) is required every time the duration expires — even by those who succeeded at the previous save — to avoid taking another 1d3 hours of paralysis, during which they suffer 1d4 Con damage per hour. The victim must succeed in two consecutive saving throws to completely shake off the spores' infection.

Any fey, giant, humanoid or monstrous humanoid of Small size or larger that is killed by these spores will rise as a plantman 1d4+20 hours later. A Small-sized victim will become a 1-4HD plantman and a Medium or larger victim will become a 5-6 HD plantman. These plantmen have no memory of their former lives, and begin their new life with a friendly attitude towards the chief who created them.

Constitution damage caused by the spores cannot be healed until the spores' contagion is removed. The spells _blight, heal, limited wish_ or _wish_ and _miracle_ or the psionic power _bend reality_ can completely remove the spores' contagion, as does a DC27 Heal check (DC22 when combined with _diminish plant_ or _remove disease_). A DC17 Heal check will prevent one hour of paralysis and Con loss, while a _diminish plant_ or _remove disease _spell will delay the victim's Con damage, or their revival as a plantman, for one hour per caster level. This only delays the progress of the spores, it does not cure the victim. A _remove paralysis_ spell will allow the victim to function normally for one hour, but it does not delay the Con damage or transformation.

The save DC and Heal checks are Constitution dependent.*
*
*Two-Weapon Fighting Variant *- swap Lightning Reflexes for Two Weapon Fighting, drop Ref save to +4 and change attack lines to:

*Attack:* Claw +11 melee (1d6+5) or longspear +12 melee (2d6+7/x3) or morningstar +11 melee (2d6+7) or sickle +11 melee (1d8+5) or spear +7 ranged (2d6+5/x3)
*Full Attack:* Claw +11 melee (1d6+5) or longspear +12/+7 melee (2d6+7/x3) or morningstar +11/+6 melee (2d6+7) or sickle +11/+6 melee (1d8+5) or morningstar +9/+4 melee (2d6+5) and sickle +9 melee (1d8+2) or spear +7/+2 ranged (2d6+5/x3)
Base – morningstar +7/+2 melee (2d6+5) and sickle +3 melee (1d8+2)
TWF feat – morningstar +9/+4 melee (2d6+5) and sickle +9 melee (1d8+2)

*[*_26 skill ranks, 8 in Hide, 4 in Move Silently, 6 in Listen, 6 in Spot, 2 in Swim_
_Originally I gave the chief _Power Attack_ for its 9HD feat, but that seemed a bit unimaginative and it's just another thing for the DM to keep track on when running a horde of plantmen, so I decided to give the sample chief _Quick Draw_ instead, so it could swap weapons and hurl spears with lightning speed._*]*

*PLANTMAN HERO
Hewer of Men
6th level Ranger, Elite 7 HD Plantman Subchief*_
_Large Plant
*Hit Dice:* 13d8+42 (97 hp)
*Initiative:* +3
*Speed:* 30 ft. (6 squares)
*Armour Class:* 22 (-1 size, +6 natural, +4 armour [_+1 studded leather armour_], +3 Dex) touch 12, flat-footed 19
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +11/+19
*Attack:* Claw +14 melee (1d6+4) or _+1 battleaxe_ +16 melee (2d6+7/19-20×3) or mighty masterwork composite longbow [+4 strength bonus] +14 ranged (2d6+4/×3)
*Full Attack:* Claw +14 melee (1d6+4) or _+1 battleaxe_ +16/+11 melee (2d6+7/19-20×3) or _+1 battleaxe_ +12/+7 melee (2d6+5/19-20×3) and masterwork battleaxe +12/+7 melee (2d6+2/19-20×3) or mighty masterwork composite longbow [+4 strength bonus] +14/+9 ranged (2d6+4/×3)
*Space/Reach:* 10 ft./10 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Favoured enemies [_Humans +4, Animals +2_]
*Special Qualities:* Animal companion, fear of flames, immunities (electricity, mind-affecting effects, paralysis, poison, sleep, stun and critical hits), low-light vision, moisture dependency, plant weaknesses, spell-use, vulnerability to fire, wild empathy
*Saves:* Fort +14, Ref +11, Will +9 [_+1 cloak of resistance_]
*Abilities:* Str 18, Dex 17, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 8
*Skills:* Climb +9, Hide +19[_+27 in swamp or jungle_], Knowledge (nature) +7, Listen +18, Move Silently +23, Spot +18, Survival +16, Swim +4
*Feats:* Combat Reflexes, EnduranceB, Improved Critical (battleaxe), Improved Two-Weapon FightingB, Iron Will, Power Attack, TrackB, Two-Weapon FightingB, Weapon Focus (battleaxe)
*Environment:* Warm forest or swamp
*Organization:* Solitary, Gang (4-9), band (10-100 plus 2-5 5 HD bodyguards and one 7-8 HD sub-chief per 50 plantmen, plus one 10 HD chief), warband (6-24), or tribe (30-300 plus 2-5 5 HD bodyguards and one 7-8 HD sub-chief per 50 plantman, plus 2-8 6 HD bodyguards and one 10-12 HD chief)
*Challenge Rating:* 10
*Treasure:* Standard
*Alignment:* Neutral
*Advancement:* 8–12 HD (Large) or by character class - see above
*Level Adjustment:* +3?

Proficient will all simple and martial weapons, and with light armour and shields (except tower shields).

*Combat:*
*1st & 2nd Favoured Enemy (Ex):* +4 versus Humans, +2 versus animals

*Animal Companion (Ex):* Riding Dog

*Spells (Sp):* Two 1st level ranger spells, usually _entangle, resist energy_ [usually used to give it fire resistance 10].

*Wild Empathy (Ex):* A ranger can improve the attitude of an animal. This ability functions just like a Diplomacy check to improve the attitude of a person. The ranger rolls 1d20 and adds his ranger level and his Charisma modifier to determine the wild empathy check result. The typical domestic animal has a starting attitude of indifferent, while wild animals are usually unfriendly.
  To use wild empathy, the ranger and the animal must be able to study each other, which means that they must be within 30 feet of one another under normal visibility conditions. Generally, influencing an animal in this way takes 1 minute, but, as with influencing people, it might take more or less time.
  The ranger can also use this ability to influence a magical beast with an Intelligence score of 1 or 2, but he takes a -4 penalty on the check.

*Treasure & Equipment:*
5800 gp treasure from CR10

_+1 studded leather armour, +1 cloak of resistance, +1 battleaxe_, masterwork battleaxe, mighty composite longbow [+4 strength bonus] with 60 arrows, scrolls of _longstrider _and _pass without trace_.
100' hemp rope, four large waterskins (1-gallon each), scrollcase

Weight*:* 96.5lbs (light encumbrance) when not carrying waterskins, 128.5lbs (medium encumbrance) with full waterskins.
Cost: 5799.24gp, remaining money: 7sp, 6cp


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## Cleon (May 9, 2009)

*Plantmen as a Savage Species-Style Class*

*Plantmen as a Savage Species-Style Class*

A plantman can increase its levels in Plant by following a Savage Species-style advancement. Whenever a plantman gains a level it may use it to gain a character class level or increase its level in the Plantman class.

[_A 1-4 HD plantman is +1 LA, a 5-6 HD plantman is +2 LA, a 7-9 HD plantman is +3 LA and a 10-12 HD plantman is +4 LA. I decided to give them back their missing Plant immunities (mind-affecting spells, poison, paralysis, polymorph, stun and critical hits) at higher stages._]

A plantman's base land speed in 30 feet. All plantmen have fear of flames, low-light vision, immunity to electricity, charm and compulsion effects (except for mind-affecting effects which specifically affect plants), moisture dependency and vulnerability to fire as Special Qualities.

Levels in the Plantman class do not count towards the standard level-based ability increases, they only give the ability increases listed under Racial Modifiers. (i.e. a 3rd level Plantman / 1st level Ranger would not receive the +1 to one ability score for being a 4th level character, although a 1st level Plantman / 4th level Ranger would get that bonus.)

The plantman gains feats as it gains levels in the Plantman class according to its Hit Dice. It gains its first feat at level 1 (1HD), a second feat at level 4 (3HD), a third feat at level 8 (6HD), a fourth feat at level 12 (9HD) and a fifth feat at level 16 (12HD).

*Level 1:* Medium-Sized (4 feet, 75 lb), one level of Plant: 1d8 hit dice; base attack bonus +0; base saves Fort +2, Ref +0, Will +0; Racial Skill Points: 4 × (2 + Int modifier); First Racial Feat; Racial Modifiers: Natural Armour +2; Str +0, Dex +4, Hide +2 (Hide racial bonus increases to +6 in swamp or forest), Move Silently +2.
[_Or alternatively:
_*Level 1: *_Small-Sized _(3½ feet, 50 lb)_, one level of Plant: 1d8 hit dice; base attack bonus +0; base saves Fort +2, Ref +0, Will +0; Racial Skill Points: 4 × (2 + Int modifier); Racial modifiers: Natural Armour +1; Str +0, Dex +4, Hide +4 (Hide bonus increases to +6 in swamp or forest), Move Silently +4 - note that the Hide bonus includes the adjustment for Small size_]
*Level 2:* Medium-Sized(4½ feet, 100 lb), one level of Plant: 1d8 hit dice; base attack bonus +0; base saves Fort +2, Ref +0, Will +0; Racial Skill Points: 4 × (2 + Int modifier); Racial Modifiers: Natural Armour +4; Str +2, Dex +4, Hide +4 (Hide racial bonus increases to +12 in swamp or forest), Move Silently +4.
*Level 3:* Medium-Sized (5 feet, 125 lb), two levels of Plant: 2d8 hit dice; base attack bonus +1; base saves Fort +3, Ref +0, Will +0; Racial Skill Points: 5 × (2 + Int modifier); Racial Modifiers: Natural Armour +4; Str +2, Dex +4, Hide +4 (Hide racial bonus increases to +12 in swamp or forest), Move Silently +4.
*Level 4:* Medium-Sized (5½ feet, 160 lb), three levels of Plant: 3d8 hit dice; base attack bonus +2; base saves Fort +3, Ref +1, Will +1; Racial Skill Points: 6 × (2 + Int modifier); Second Racial Feat; Racial Modifiers: Natural Armour +4; Str +4, Dex +4, Hide +4 (Hide racial bonus increases to +12 in swamp or forest), Move Silently +4.
*Level 5:* Medium-Sized (6 feet, 200 lb), four levels of Plant: 4d8 hit dice; base attack bonus +3; base saves Fort +4, Ref +1, Will +1; Racial Skill Points: 7 × (2 + Int modifier); Racial Modifiers: Natural Armour +4; Str +4, Dex +4, Hide +4 (Hide racial bonus increases to +12 in swamp or forest), Move Silently +4.
*Level 6:* Add immunity to mind-affecting, stun and critical hits.
*Level 7:* Medium-Sized (6½ feet, 250 lb), five levels of Plant: 5d8 hit dice; base attack bonus +3; base saves Fort +4, Ref +1, Will +1; Racial Skill Points: 8 × (2 + Int modifier); Racial Modifiers: Natural Armour +5; Str +6, Con +2, Dex +2, Hide +4 (Hide racial bonus increases to +12 in swamp or forest), Move Silently +4.
*Level 8:* Medium-Sized (7 feet, 320 lb), six levels of Plant: 6d8 hit dice; base attack bonus +4; base saves Fort +5, Ref +2, Will +2; Racial Skill Points: 9 × (2 + Int modifier); Third Racial Feat; Racial Modifiers: Natural Armour +5; Str +6, Con +2, Dex +2, Hide +4 (Hide racial bonus increases to +12 in swamp or forest), Move Silently +4.
*Level 9:* Add immunity to paralysis and poison.
*Level 10:* Large-Sized (7½ feet, 400 lb), seven levels of Plant: 7d8 hit dice; base attack bonus +5; base saves Fort +5, Ref +2, Will +2; Racial Skill Points: 10 × (2 + Int modifier); Racial Modifiers: Natural Armour +6; Str +8, Con +4, Dex +2, Hide +4 (Hide racial bonus increases to +12 in swamp or forest), Move Silently +4.
*Level 11:* Large-Sized (8 feet, 480 lb), eight levels of Plant: 8d8 hit dice; base attack bonus +6; base saves Fort +6, Ref +2, Will +2; Racial Skill Points: 11 × (2 + Int modifier); Racial Modifiers: Natural Armour +6; Str +8, Dex +2, Hide +4 (Hide racial bonus increases to +12 in swamp or forest), Move Silently +4.
*Level 12:* Large-Sized (8½ feet, 575 lb), nine levels of Plant: 9d8 hit dice; base attack bonus +6; base saves Fort +6, Ref +3, Will +3; Racial Skill Points: 12 × (2 + Int modifier); Fourth Racial Feat; Racial Modifiers: Natural Armour +6; Str +10, Con +4, Dex +2, Hide +4 (Hide racial bonus increases to +12 in swamp or forest), Move Silently +4.
*Level 13:* Add immunity to polymorph.
*Level 14:* Large-Sized (9 feet, 700 lb), ten levels of Plant: 10d8 hit dice; base attack bonus +7; base saves Fort +7, Ref +3, Will +3; Racial Skill Points: 13 × (2 + Int modifier); Racial Modifiers: Natural Armour +6; Str +10, Con +4, Dex +2, Hide +4 (Hide racial bonus increases to +12 in swamp or forest), Move Silently +4, Special Attack: Spores.
*Level 15:* Large-Sized (9½ feet, 825 lb), eleven levels of Plant: 11d8 hit dice; base attack bonus +8; base saves Fort +7, Ref +3, Will +3; Racial Skill Points: 14 × (2 + Int modifier); Racial Modifiers: Natural Armour +6; Str +12, Con +4, Dex +2, Hide +4 (Hide racial bonus increases to +12 in swamp or forest), Move Silently +4, Special Attack: Spores.
*Level 16:* Large-Sized (10 feet, 1000 pounds), twelve levels of Plant: 12d8 hit dice; base attack bonus +9; base saves Fort +8, Ref +4, Will +4; Racial Skill Points: 15 × (2 + Int modifier); Fifth Racial Feat; Racial Modifiers: Natural Armour +6; Str +12, Con +4, Dex +2, Hide +4 (Hide racial bonus increases to +12 in swamp or forest), Move Silently +4, Special Attack: Spores.


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## Cleon (May 9, 2009)

*Plantman Plantpriest*

*PLANTPRIEST
*Most plantmen priests belong to a divine spellcasting class, the plantpriest, that combines traits of the cleric and druid classes. A plantpriest does not worship a single god, but reveres a range of vegetable and elemental spirit-entities under an all-encompassing divine life force that can roughly be translated as "The Green". A plantpriest uses the following rules:


*Alignment:* Plantpriests can be of the same alignment as druids - Neutral good, lawful neutral, neutral, chaotic neutral, or neutral evil. All plantpriests must have a neutral component to their alignment, most are just neutral.
*Hit Die:* d8
*Class Skills:* The plantpriest’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Knowledge (the planes) (Int), Profession (Wis), Spellcraft (Int) and Survival (Wis).
*Skill Points:* 4 + Int modifier, (4 + Int modifier) ×4.
Base attack bonus and base saves as a cleric.
*Weapon and Armour Proficiency:* Plantpriests are proficient with the following weapons: club, dagger, dart, javelin, longspear, quarterstaff, sickle, shortspear, sling and spear. They are proficient with light and medium armour but are prohibited from wearing metal armour; thus, they may wear only padded, leather, or hide armour. (A plantpriest may also wear wooden armour that has been altered by the ironwood spell so that it functions as though it were steel. See the ironwood spell description). Plantpriests are proficient with shields (except tower shields) but must use only wooden ones.
*Spells:* A plantpriest casts spells as a cleric, but has a different spell list. They can not cast spells that do fire and cold damage, and draw most of their spells from the druid spell list. (see Spell List, below)
*Domains:* All plantpriests must select the Plant and Water domains. Since plantpriests are forbidden to use cold spells, they gain _transmute rock to mud _instead of _ice storm_ and _cloudkill_ instead of _cone of cold_ for their 5th and 6th level Water spells.
*Spontaneous Casting:* A plantpriest can spontaneously cast cure or inflict spells as a cleric. However, the plantpriests spontaneously cast cure and inflict spells only affect plants, they must prepare regular cure/inflict spells if they wish to effect other creatures. Neutral good plantpriests can only spontaneously cast cure plant spells, neutral evil ones must cast inflict plant spells. A plantpriest who is neither good nor evil must choose between cure or inflict spells at creation. This choice cannot be reversed. Plantmen consider such priests as choosing between the paths of Growth and Decay. The vast majority of plantpriests choose to cast cure spells.
*Turn or Rebuke (Su):* Plantpriests can turn or rebuke undead as a cleric of their level. A plantpriest that follows the Path of Growth and spontaneously casts cure plant spells can turn or destroy undead, a plantpriest that follows the Path of Decay and spontaneously casts injure plant spells can rebuke or command undead.
In addition, all plantpriest can turn or destroy creatures with the Fire subtype a total number of times per day equal to 3 + their Charisma modifier and rebuke or command Plant creatures the same number of times per day, due to the granted powers of the Plant and Water domains.
*Bonus Languages:* Druidic, Sylvan. Plantpriests share much philosophy and ritual practice with druidic orders, and druids do not consider them nondruids. Thus, they may learn the druid's secret language.
*Ex-Plantpriests:* A plantpriest who ceases to revere nature; destroys the plantlife of its forest or swamp; kills a druid, plantman or plantpriest (except in self-defence); casts a spell with the Fire or Cold descriptor; changes to a prohibited alignment or teaches the Druidic language to a nondruid loses all spells and plantpriest abilities, plus any spells and abilities from any levels of druid it may possess. They cannot thereafter gain levels as a plantpriest or druid until they atone (see the atonement spell description).

 *Spell List:*
(*Note:* A plantpriest's summoning spells - _summon monster I-IX_ and _elemental swarm_ - can not summon creatures with the Fire or Cold subtypes; its _awaken_ spell only affect plants, not animals; and its _reincarnate_ spell will always result in the subject's rebirth as a Plant creature)

*O level:* _create water, cure minor wounds, detect magic, detect poison, guidance, inflict minor wounds, know direction, light, mending, purify food and drink, read magic, resistance, virtue
*1st level:*_ _cure light wounds, detect animals or plants, detect chaos/evil/good/law, detect snares and pits, divine favour, endure elements, entangle, faerie fire, goodberry, hide from animals, inflict light wounds, jump, longstrider, magic stone, magic weapon, obscuring mist, pass without trace, remove fear, shillelagh, summon monster I
*2nd level:* aid, animal trance, augury, barkskin, bear’s endurance, bull’s strength, calm emotions, cat’s grace, consecrate, delay poison, desecrate, fog cloud, gust of wind, hold animal, hold person, owl’s wisdom, resist energy, lesser restoration, soften earth and stone, spider climb, spiritual weapon,_ _status_, _summon monster II, tree shape, warp wood, wood shape
*3rd level:* call lightning, cure moderate wounds, daylight, diminish plants, dominate animal, inflict moderate wounds, meld into stone, neutralize poison, plant growth, poison, protection from energy, quench, remove disease, snare, speak with plants, spike growth, stone shape, summon monster III, water breathing, wind wall
*4th level:* air walk, antiplant shell, blight, command plants, control water, cure serious wounds, dispel magic, dismissal, freedom of movement, greater magic weapon, inflict serious wounds, reincarnate_ (as plant)_, repel vermin, rusting grasp, scrying, spike stones, summon monster IV
*5th level:* atonement, awaken _(tree only)_, break enchantment, call lightning storm, commune with nature, control winds, cure critical wounds, death ward, hallow, inflict critical wounds, plane shift, slay living, stoneskin, summon monster V, transmute mud to rock, transmute rock to mud, tree stride, unhallow, wall of thorns
*6th level:* mass bear’s endurance, mass bull’s strength, mass cat’s grace, cloudkill, mass cure light wounds, greater dispel magic, find the path, mass inflict light wounds, ironwood, liveoak, move earth, mass owl’s wisdom, repel wood, spellstaff, stone tell, summon monster VI, transport via plants, wall of stone
*7th level:* acid fog, animate plants, changestaff, control weather, mass cure moderate wounds, harm, heal, greater scrying, mass inflict moderate wounds, summon monster VII, transmute metal to wood, true seeing, wind walk
*8th level:* control plants, mass cure serious wounds, discern location, earthquake, finger of death, horrid wilting_, _mass inflict serious wounds, repel metal or stone, summon monster VIII, whirlwind, word of recall
*9th level:* antipathy, astral projection, mass cure critical wounds, elemental swarm, foresight, mass inflict critical wounds, regenerate, shambler, summon monster IX, sympathy_


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## freyar (May 11, 2009)

Cleon, that is a lot of text!  When you do a critter, you really hit all angles!


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## Shade (May 11, 2009)

Cleon said:


> In that case it raises a different niggle. You've put two skill points in Move Silently right? That's a cross-class skill for Warriors, so shouldn't it get one rank for +3 MS (once its +2 Dex bonus is thrown in), instead of two ranks for +4?




Nice catch!  I'll remove one point.




Cleon said:


> I'm a bit confused by the explanation of plantfolk/chief advancement. The Chief entry says "Plantfolk chiefs arise from the ranks of plantfolk that advance by HD", but their Advancement only mentions by character class. Shouldn't it have 11-12 HD (Large) in there as well?




Another good point.  I'll add the 11-12 HD (Large) to the Advancement.



Cleon said:


> There's also a slight implication that plantfolk which don't advance by Plant HD (e.g. regular warriors) can't become chiefs, although I don't think that can be right if chiefs advances by character class.




That was the intent.  It sounds like the chiefs were supposed to be among the larger-sized plantfolk, so one that advanced solely by character class wouldn't fit that mold.  Think of the chief as "being all it can be" physically, then branching out into skill sets.

Your alternates are nice as well.   You must've really liked these guys to put that much effort into them!

Updated plantfolk and chief.

Ready to move on?


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## freyar (May 11, 2009)

Ready, chief!


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## Cleon (May 12, 2009)

Shade said:


> Nice catch!  I'll remove one point.




I'd have given the Plantfolk Move Silently as a bonus class skill myself, to follow the originals implication that they're naturally sneaky, but it's your monster. I have no objection either way.



Shade said:


> Your alternates are nice as well.   You must've really liked these guys to put that much effort into them!




Ta Shade. It's more that I like to focus on one beastie at a time and often go overboard on the development than that I like the plantfolk more than the other creatures currently being converted on this board. I think I'm fonder of the Lumbercritters than these green guys. Which reminds me, I've still got one more Lumbercritter I haven't got around to finishing. May revisit it now the Plantman is done.



Shade said:


> Ready to move on?




Yes I think so, what's up next?


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## Shade (May 12, 2009)

Horse Sense

In the lands of the Houyhnhnms, humans and horses have traded places. The former are no more than wild beasts suitable for little more than physical labor, while the horses, or Houyhnhnms, are creatures of great wisdom and rational thought.

*Houyhnhnms* (1-100): AC 7; MV 24; HD 2+2; THACO 20; #AT 2; Dmg 1-2/1-2; SZ L; ML Champion (15-16); Int Highly (13-14); AL LN(G); XP 120.

Even under a close physical examination, Houyhnhnms appear to be domestic breeds of horses. Their coloration is the same as normal horses. Houyhnhnms keep themselves well groomed and wear their manes and tails long. They never put on bridles, saddles or other riding equipment. Some post-Swift illustrations show Houyhnhnms wearing aprons, capes or shawls.

Houyhnhnms possess very dexterous forelegs and can raise their front hooves up to their mouths or above their eye level without bending their backs. They use their pasterns, the area between their fetlock and hoof, to milk cows, construct buildings or even thread a needle. These intelligent quadrupeds have a language that sounds like soft and mild neighing.

The only time Houyhhhnms resorted to brute force to solve a problem was to reduce the population of Yahoos on their island. Thus, Houyhnhnms have never learned any of the combat arts. On the other hand, Houyhnhnms possess natural weapons of hooves, teeth and great natural strength. Furthermore, these equines have prudence, unanimity, are oblivious to fear and maintain a great love for their island nation. These factors make Houyhnhnms a dangerous military force. In addition, Houyhnhnms can learn to use most of the weapons, and wear all types of horse barding, listed in the Player's Handbook. However, outsiders, like the player characters, would have to give or sell the Houyhnhnms crafted weapons and armor, as well as teach proficiencies in these weapons.

Houyhnhnms think of themselves as the perfection of nature. Using their own bodies as a guide to judge others. Houyhnhnms will consider only other intelligent quadrupeds, such as pegasi and unicorns to be their equal. Houyhnhnms will be thunderstuck by bipedal characters who can shape change into equine like creatures. Centaurs will be thought of as Houyhnmnms society.

Houyhnhnms instinctively know the correct way of behaving. Thus, they never argue or quarrel with each other. Ignorant of cruelty, warfare and deception, Houyhnhnms are what Adam and Eve were like before they fell from the state of grace. To Swift, Houyhnhnms are rational beings who lack all of the negative passions that most other sentient beings possess. Despite this ice-cold reason, Houyhnhnms practice the art of universal friendship and benevolence to their entire species, to Gulliver, and to the player characters. These quadrupeds do not know other languages, but they are willing to teach their language and culture to visitors.

This Houyhnmnms utopian commonwealth has no "physicians, lawyers, censurers, back-biters, pickpockets, highwaymen, housebreakers, bawds, buffoons, gamesters, politicians, wits, tedious talkers, ravishers, murderers, robbers, virtuosos, as well as no dungeons, axes gibbets, whipping posts, or pillories." Visitors, such as Gulliver and the player characters will never suffer from physical illnesses as long as they live on this island. This effect is similar to the third level Priest Spell, Cure Disease. Houyhnhnms don't wear clothing, as they see no need for it. They will not let anyone or anything ride them. The only literature Houyhnhnms create are poems in the praise of virtue or songs of praise.

Their stratified society is ruled by a class of equine philosophers. These philosophers elect a representative council that meets on the vernal equinox of every fourth year. Representatives from every part of their island assemble upon a large plain or grassland to discuss the state of the Houyhnmnms nation. These meetings are also used to regulate the number of children born during the upcoming years.

Unless they die by accident, a Houyhnhnm's average life span is 70-80 years. They eat grass, hay, and a mash made of oats and milk. Typical Houyhnmnms farms have asses, cats, cows, and other domesticated animals.

Houyhnhnms use arranged marriages based upon the strength of one partner and the comeliness of the other. Positive human desires of romantic pleasures, such as courtship, presents, and love, as well as negative emotions such as jealousy, quarreling and discontent are unknown in their thoughts and language. They have a gestation period of ten months and produce one child per birth. Youths of both sexes get the same education in temperance, industry, and cleanliness. Exercise races are held many times each year to increase agility, endurance, speed and strength in their children. Winners of such races are rewarded with a song of praise.

Houyhnhnms know how to make pottery and stone-age tools. Their buildings are made from wattle and daub construction. The player characters will notice that doorway frames and individual chambers are larger than in human homes. Houyhnhnms need bigger homes to accommodate their large equine bodies. They do not build defensive constructions such as moats or ramparts. Proficiencies available to PC and NPC Houyhnhnms are agriculture, animal handling, animal training, fire-guilding, healing, herbalism, pottery, rope use, swimming, weather sense and weaving.

From "In a Strange Land: Following in the Footsteps of Gulliver" by James P. Buchanan; Polyhedron #106 (1995).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houyhnhnm


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## freyar (May 12, 2009)

Been a long time since I read that book!

These have low HD for a horse (even the light horse has 3HD and ponies have 2HD).  How about bumping to 3HD and giving them heavy horse physical abilities?


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## Shade (May 12, 2009)

That works for me.


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## Cleon (May 13, 2009)

Shade said:


> That works for me.




I'd prefer not to give them 3 base hit dice. Being sapient creatures, I'd think they would have lower Hit Dice with physical stats around a Light Warhorse level and boosted mental stats (something like Str 16, Dex 13, Con 17, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 12?).

Although they'd probably advance by character class, so I imagine a typical Houyhnhnms would have 2 levels in 'Horse' and one in an NPC class such as Expert, so it would end up having 3 HD just by a different path.

EDIT: If they do advance by character class, what favoured class do you fancy. I am horribly tempted by Monk. They've got the Lawful alignment and obsession with physical exercise, mental discipline and philosophy, plus it means they don't have to worry about weapons.[END EDIT]

There aren't any notable SA/SQ in the description. The "oblivious to fear" looks like flavour-text to me, but we could make it an actual immunity.

I am having trouble imagining how they can learn to use most of the weapons listed in the Players Handbook, even with prehensile pasterns.*
They'd have to stagger around on their hind legs whenever they want to hold their weapons. So, I'm thinking a typical Houyhnhnm uses spiked gauntlets or armour spikes in melee, since these would not impair its movement, and have crossbows to use at ranged.

*Now I'm visualising a horse flourishing a spiked chain, it just doesn't work for me. 

Are we going to have a "Houyhnhnm Characters" section? I don't see why not.

Do we want to stat the Equine Philosophers? They could just have high levels in Adept and/or Expert, but maybe they develop special abilities like Stone Giant Elders do. They could be responsible for the _cure disease_ effect referred to in the text, and I'm sure we can think of other communal ritual or spell-like abilities that would suit them.

Basically, I'm thinking we need to give Houyhnhnm society some magical support if they're going to live in the World of D&D. Without it they'd be horsemeat if they are attacked by monsters or hostile tribes.


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## freyar (May 13, 2009)

I don't see why they can't have 3HD; you're worried about the racial HD making them suboptimal as a PC race?  Let them be suboptimal!    They're supposed to be kind of superhorses, so I think they should have the same HD as horses.  However, if you tell me that 2e horses have 3HD and Houyhnhnms had 2HD, then I'm ok with the lower HD.

I am fine with going for the light horse stats, if you guys prefer.


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## Shade (May 13, 2009)

2e Horse HD:

Draft = 3
Heavy = 3+3 
Medium = 2+2 
Light = 2


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## freyar (May 13, 2009)

I think that suggests these should be the same as light horses, so 3HD.  I don't mind whether we go with light horses or light warhorses for the abilities, though.


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## Shade (May 13, 2009)

I concur.  There are precedents for 3 HD "playable races", such as the bugbear.

I'm also indifferent as to the horse from which we pull ability scores.


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## Cleon (May 14, 2009)

Shade said:


> I concur.  There are precedents for 3 HD "playable races", such as the bugbear.
> 
> I'm also indifferent as to the horse from which we pull ability scores.




All right, I'll yield. Let's have it with 3 Hit Dice.

Come to think of it, the original 2+2 HD matches up to a 2E AD&D Medium warhorse, which doesn't have a 3E SRD equivalent. I'm still thinking a Light Warhorse is probably closer for the physical stats.

So, what about the other points I raised.

Advancement by character class?

Do we want an entry for the Philosopher leaders?

Shall we make something of their reported fearlessness?


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## freyar (May 14, 2009)

Ok, then, starting from the light warhorse, how about Str 16, Dex 13, Con 17, Int 14, Wis 11, Cha 14?

Advancement by character class, sure.

I could go either way on the philosophers.  In particular, I'm not sure if the "no disease" thing is a property of the Houyhnhnms, the island, or just a reflection of the fact that they have a very "clean" society.

I could see a bonus on saves vs fear effects.


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## Shade (May 14, 2009)

I agree with all of freyar's assessments in the previous post.

As for using weapons, I could see giving them non-proficiency with all weapons (including simple weapons) other than those Cleon suggested.


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## freyar (May 14, 2009)

I'll agree about the weapon nonproficiency.


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## Cleon (May 15, 2009)

freyar said:


> Ok, then, starting from the light warhorse, how about Str 16, Dex 13, Con 17, Int 14, Wis 11, Cha 14?
> 
> Advancement by character class, sure.




I prefer them having Wisdom as their highest mental stat - they are philosopher horses, after all - which is why I suggested Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 12.

What about favoured class? The idea of Monk is starting to grow on me, just the idea of Kung Fu Horses.



freyar said:


> I could see a bonus on saves vs fear effects.




I'd go for a bonus on Fear saves as well, assuming Houyhnhnms don't just have good Will saves due to high Wisdom or maybe Iron Will.


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## Cleon (May 15, 2009)

Shade said:


> As for using weapons, I could see giving them non-proficiency with all weapons (including simple weapons) other than those Cleon suggested.






freyar said:


> I'll agree about the weapon nonproficiency.




As for the weapons, my original concept was that a "typical Houyhnhnm" would be a 1st level Expert, so would get proficiency in simple weapons from its Expert class which it would use to wield spiked gauntlets (or, rather, spiked horseshoes), while Houyhnhnm in their equivalent of the militia would have levels in Warrior (or a PC combat class like ranger or fighter, for the elite ones), which would give them Martial Proficiency and hence armour spikes.

Still, giving them weapon proficiency only in the two forms of spikes works just as well for me, and it fits better with the SRD rules on monster weapon proficiency.

I'm presuming these will be Magical Beasts, which are not usually skilled in artificial weapons, but armour & horseshoe spikes are pretty well an extension of their natural weapons.

Oh, and what about armour proficiency? The text mentions they wear barding, so I'm thinking even a non-warrior Houyhnhnm would put on leather armour if they've been mustered to defend their lands. Not having much of a technology, I doubt they'll manufacture any armour tougher than Hide, but they may trade for something better with friendly or neutral neighbors.


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## Shade (May 15, 2009)

Cleon, I agree with your suggested mental ability scores and favored class.

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (May 15, 2009)

These are looking pretty good (except for the bugbear text in the PC section).  I'm divided as to whether to give the basic Houyhnhnm weapons or barding, though.  I'm not sure that we should present them as decked up for a fight (though we could put that stuff in as an alternative).  I don't think we should give them any character levels, though.


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## Cleon (May 15, 2009)

Shade said:


> Cleon, I agree with your suggested mental ability scores and favored class.
> 
> Added to Homebrews.




Looks like a good start. You've left a couple of lines of Bugbear text at the beginning of "Houyhnhnms as Characters".

Going through the x's that remain:

*Attack:* I'd put the hoof damage at 1d4, same as a light warhorse, 1d4+3 once its 17 Strength is included. (Spiked horshoes do 1d6, armour spikes 1d8)

*Skills:* Autohypnosis, Jump, Listen, Spot, Swim, Survival?

Listen, Spot should definitely be among them as all the SRD horses possess those skills. Autohypnosis or Concentration, Jump, Swim and Survival seem appropriate as well.

_Hey, if we give them Autohypnosis that would explain their resistance to fear, since they can substitute a skill check instead of a Will save. Then we wouldn't need the 'Brave' special quality!_

*Feats:* I'm strongly tempted to give them Endurance and Run like a light warhorse, they do have all those "Exercise Races" for their children.

*Organization:* Solitary, team (2-20) or herd (10-100)?

*Challenge Rating:* 2_, they're about as tough as bugbears._

*Treasure:* A bit tricky. Going by Swift's description they're not big on material possessions. No coins or gems, standard goods and items?

*Alignment:* Usually lawful neutral seems most fitting.

*Level Adjustment:* Around +2? They've got good ability scores across the board. There are too many exploits to circumvent their trouble wielding weapons for it to be worth a LA cut.

*Size and weight:* Well a typical horse is roughly 8 feet long and 1000-1200 pounds, that seems about right to me. A destrier or carthorse may weigh 1500-2000 pounds, but I'm thinking Houyhnhnm are not that heavy (except for the Schwarzenegger equivalents amongst them).
*
Special Qualities:*

*Brave:* As I said earlier, how about dropping Brave and giving them Autohypnosis.

*Darkvision:* I know it gets this from being a Magical Beast, but a Houyhnhnm that can see in pitch-black conditions doesn't feel right to me. Could we drop it and just have Low-Light vision?

*Nonproficiency:* OK by me.

*Skills
*Should we have any racial skill bonuses? Regular horses don't have any. Maybe a +2 on Autohypnosis.


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## Cleon (May 15, 2009)

Oops, I double-clicked and got a double post.

Never mind, I though of another thing. Do we include armour & weapons in the default Houyhnhnm (leather and spiked horseshoes?), or have a 'Houyhnhnm Warrior' tagged on to the end (1st level warrior or fighter with armour-spiked studded leather and a light crossbow?)


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## freyar (May 15, 2009)

Thinking about it a little more, I'd like to have a plain version without weapons/armor with a "[ or weapons]" "[or armor]" in the attack and AC lines.  That should give them racial proficiency.

I don't mind Autohypnosis as a skill, but I don't like replacing Bravery with it, since skills aren't racial/societal traits.  

The feats are good, though!  Not every one would have those, but a "standard" one in that culture would.


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## Cleon (May 15, 2009)

freyar said:


> I don't mind Autohypnosis as a skill, but I don't like replacing Bravery with it, since skills aren't racial/societal traits.
> 
> The feats are good, though!  Not every one would have those, but a "standard" one in that culture would.




Well I'll agree about skills not being racial traits (or at least skill points aren't, as opposes to racial bonuses to skill checks), although I'd think they are societal traits - you can easily have societies that do/don't have a particular skill.

However, we don't know whether the philosopher-horses' courage is down to biology or culture, so we can choose to go either way.


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## Cleon (May 15, 2009)

freyar said:


> The feats are good, though!  Not every one would have those, but a "standard" one in that culture would.




Yes, well I'd think that's pretty well assumed for most sapient creature's feat-selection and many sentient ones, except for creatures that are built to a fixed blueprint (Inevitables et cetera).

Neither Endurance or Run have much of a direct impact on the Houyhnhnms' combat-worthiness, but they certainly fit the flavour.


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## freyar (May 15, 2009)

Cleon said:


> Well I'll agree about skills not being racial traits (or at least skill points aren't, as opposes to racial bonuses to skill checks), although I'd think they are societal traits - you can easily have societies that do/don't have a particular skill.
> 
> However, we don't know whether the philosopher-horses' courage is down to biology or culture, so we can choose to go either way.



True enough.  I guess I got the impression that their courage (or arrogance, however we should put it ) was more nature than nurture, but it could go either way.


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## Shade (May 15, 2009)

Updated.

I dropped darkvision and added scent, like horses.


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## Cleon (May 16, 2009)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> I dropped darkvision and added scent, like horses.




Looks good, I like the added Scent SQ and dividing its 18 skill points evenly amongst the skills makes sense.

So what's left: Bravery bonus, languages and cleric domains.

Most SRD races with saving throw bonuses get +2, except for the halfling which is +1 or +3 vs fear (+2 morale plus +1 racial). How about giving Houyhnhnm the same +3 saving throw bonus againts fear? Should it be a racial bonus or a morale bonus? I guess that gets us back to the nature vs nurture question.

Languages. Well in the book they spoke their own tongue, but 3E doesn't favour language proliferation so I think we should pick something else. How about Sylvan, with most or all the 'non-evil humanoid' languages as additional languages to pick from (Common, Dwarven, Elven, Giant, Gnome, Halfling)?

Do we really need to set their cleric domain options? We could just let them pick whatever two they fancy fits the character. I suppose Animal, Law and Knowledge are good fits. Do my compadres fancy any of the other domains?


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## freyar (May 16, 2009)

+2 or +3 works, and I don't mind either morale or racial, really.  Perhaps since the "base model" has Autohypnosis, there's less of a need for a big bonus, so +2 would work?

Sylvan makes sense, though I'm not shy about giving them their own tongue.  In the Swiftian original text, they don't know other languages, but I'd say your proposals would work.  We could note in the flavor text that they don't always learn other languages.  As an alternative, since they're scholarly but don't seem to associate much with other species, we could give them things like Draconic, Celestial, and Infernal.  But that doesn't seem quite right either.

Those domains sound good to me.


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## Cleon (May 16, 2009)

freyar said:


> +2 or +3 works, and I don't mind either morale or racial, really.  Perhaps since the "base model" has Autohypnosis, there's less of a need for a big bonus, so +2 would work?




Sounds OK by me. If we give it +2 it will end up with a +5 Will save vs fear, the same modifier as if it substitutes its Autohypnosis skill.



freyar said:


> Sylvan makes sense, though I'm not shy about giving them their own tongue.  In the Swiftian original text, they don't know other languages, but I'd say your proposals would work.  We could note in the flavor text that they don't always learn other languages.  As an alternative, since they're scholarly but don't seem to associate much with other species, we could give them things like Draconic, Celestial, and Infernal.  But that doesn't seem quite right either.




Well Sylvan and Draconic sounds alright to me as far as their default languages go. They don't seem Good/Evil aligned enough to have Celestial or Infernal as bonus languages.



freyar said:


> Those domains sound good to me.




Yes, I toyed with the idea of Strength or Protection, but they didn't seem to fit quite as well.


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## Shade (May 18, 2009)

All sounds good.

Updated.

Freyar, do you still want weapons added parenthentically to the attack lines?


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## Cleon (May 19, 2009)

Shade said:


> All sounds good.
> 
> Updated.
> 
> Freyar, do you still want weapons added parenthentically to the attack lines?




How shall we handle it, just substitute the damage of large-sized spiked gauntlets or armour spikes for its hooves? That's stretching the rules though, if we strictly follow the rules the Houyhnhnm only gets one attack with a weapon, even with a full attack, unless it takes two-weapon fighting penalties, but that would mean its better off just using hooves for a full attack.

Something like:

Full Attack: 2 hooves +5 melee (1d4+3) [or 2 spiked horseshoes +5 melee (1d6+3) or crossbow +3 ranged ()]

Do you prefer light crossbows (2d6) or heavy crossbows (2d8)? I'm thinking a light crossbow makes most sense, as they'll get twice the fire rate.


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## freyar (May 19, 2009)

You know, instead of spiked horseshoes, we could do armor spikes on the barding, which sort of looks better in my mind's eye.  Then we don't have to worry about the two-weapon fighting rule, and the base damage is 1d8.  But you're right, the two hoofs seem like they'd be better anyway, and the armor spikes have the disadvantage of being martial weapons.

Sigh.  We've really started to hit the complicated ones.  I suppose the best weaponry for these is really the light crossbow.  We could just go with two hoofs or a light xbow and forget the parenthetical weapons (could still do parenthetical armor).


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## Cleon (May 19, 2009)

freyar said:


> You know, instead of spiked horseshoes, we could do armor spikes on the barding, which sort of looks better in my mind's eye.  Then we don't have to worry about the two-weapon fighting rule, and the base damage is 1d8.  But you're right, the two hoofs seem like they'd be better anyway, and the armor spikes have the disadvantage of being martial weapons.




Personally, I'd just stretch the rules and give them 1d6 damage horseshoes without any attack penalties. They weapons are pretty useless with the RAW -4/-8 two-weapon attack penalty.

As for armour spikes, we'd also have to give the Houyhnhnm an Armour Proficiency feat in order to wear the armour the spikes are attached to, or it will suffer an even greater penalty.

We could note somewhere in the Weapon Nonproficiency SQ that Houyhnhnm can use use spiked gauntlets to increase their damage on hoof attacks without a two-weapon attack penalty? I fancy a base Houyhnhnm does not have any proficiency in armour or martial weapons (i.e. armour spikes), but only a few simple weapons.

Speaking of which, are there any other simple weapons a Houyhnhnm could be skilled in? If I remember my Swift correctly, they farmed crops so could know how to use sickles. Since they're cavalry it may sound like they should be skilled in lances, but a horse rearing onto its hind legs and charging into battle with a spear is too silly for my tastes.

Hold on, there is precedent for a monster making a normal iterative attack with an artificial weapon and then using a natural weapon as a secondary attack. A Houyhnhnm using armour spikes could become:*Full Attack:* Armour spike +5 melee (1d8+3) and hoof +0 melee (1d4+1)​That still works out worse, with a -5 attack on the hoof and no increase in average damage if both attacks hit. Maybe if we say a Houyhnhnm counts armour spikes and gauntlets as natural weapons, which would make it:*Full Attack:* Armour spike +5 melee (1d8+3) and armour spike +0 melee (1d8+1)​That's potentially an extra two points of damage if both attacks hit, but still isn't optimal except against low AC targets. I think that's excusable.

Alternatively, we could apply a rather liberal interpretation of "The Two-Weapon Fighting feat lessens the primary hand penalty by 2, _and the off-hand penalty by 6_." so it cancels out the -5 secondary attack penalty to become:*Full Attack:* Armour spike +5 melee (1d8+3) and armour spike +5 melee (1d8+1)​The TWF could be a racial bonus ability applied only to two weapon fighting with hoofs, gauntlets or armour spikes, analagous to a Ranger's TWF, or we could swap the Endurance or Run feat for Two Weapon Fighting.

That's two points extra damage on average (2d8+4 averages 13, 2d4+6 average 11), while a horse with spiked gauntlets would do the same damage average, but piercing (1d6+4 plus 1d6+1 = 2d6+4 averages 11).

I quite like that.

EDIT: If they get TWF as a bonus feat, then they can buy Improved TWF for an extra secondary attack, which I like the idea of. What out for those high level Horse Monks with Flurry of Blows!

I still fancy statting up a Houyhnhnm Warrior with armour spiked studded leather as a 'Militia Horse'. Make it 3rd level, so it gains an iterative attack and an extra +3 BAB:*Full Attack:* Armour spike +8/+3 melee (1d8+3) and armour spike +8 melee (1d8+1)​(Assumes the TWF proficiency option, it can use its 3rd level feat to get TWF if we decide all Houyhnhnm don't have it, otherwise it would have another feat such as Weapon Focus (armour spikes) for an extra +1 to hit.



freyar said:


> Sigh.  We've really started to hit the complicated ones.  I suppose the best weaponry for these is really the light crossbow.  We could just go with two hoofs or a light xbow and forget the parenthetical weapons (could still do parenthetical armor).




EDIT: Complicated? What makes you think that?


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## Cleon (May 19, 2009)

OK, lets try to boil it down into some actual rules text. Upon reflection, giving them TWF as a bonus feat is probably too open to abuse so I think something like:*Weapon Nonproficiency (Ex):* Although they can use weapons, houyhnhnms are only able to become proficient in simple weapons due to their hooflike hands, with the exception of armour spikes, which they can learn to use as martial weapons. All Houyhnnms are proficient in light crossbow, gauntlet, spiked gauntlet, kama and sickle.

A houyhnhnm using a gauntlet, spiked gauntlet or armour spikes to make a full attack action can make an single additional  attack with an off-hand hoof, gauntlet (spiked or otherwise) or armour spike at its full attack bonus, applying full strength bonus for hoof attacks and half strength bonus for gauntlet or spike attacks. It can increase the number of off-hoof attacks with the Greater Two Weapon Fighting feat and subsequent entries in the two-weapon fighting feat chain, but must still purchase Improved Two-Weapon Fighting  as per the normal rules, despite the limited advantage of the latter feat.​What do you think?


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## Shade (May 19, 2009)

Rather than a bunch of exception-based design, why don't we just state that houyhnhnms treat spiked gauntlets and armor spikes as special monk weapons?   Since most are going to become monks, they'll be able to use their unarmed attack sequence and damage and flurry of blows with them.


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## Cleon (May 19, 2009)

Shade said:


> Rather than a bunch of exception-based design, why don't we just state that houyhnhnms treat spiked gauntlets and armor spikes as special monk weapons?   Since most are going to become monks, they'll be able to use their unarmed attack sequence and damage and flurry of blows with them.




They wouldn't be able to use flurry of blows with armour spikes, since they'd be wearing armour. 

Also, being Large creatures even a 1st level Hoyhnhnm monk has a 1d8 unarmed strike, so they get no damage advantage from using armour spikes or spiked gauntlets, just the option to do piercing damage.

Plus, it's no benefit to all the non-Monk horsefolk. I'm thinking only a minority of Houyhnhnms will be adventurer-worthy and not all of those will have levels in monk.


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## Cleon (May 19, 2009)

Another approach would be to say all Houyhnhnm have the flurry of blows ability with hooves, gauntlets or armour spikes, and let their 3 levels of magical beast stack with any monk levels for purpose of flurry of blows attacks, but not with a Monk's unarmed strike damage?

Then a base Houyhnhnm would have 2 hooves +5 melee (1d4+3) or flurries with spiked gauntlets at +3/+3 melee (1d6+3), a 1st level Warrior would add armour spikes due to martial weapon proficiency so gets 2 hooves +6 melee (1d4+3) or flurries with +4/+4 melee (1d6+3 gauntlets or 1d8+3 armour spikes), and a 1st level Houyhnhnm monk would get 2 hooves +5 melee (1d4+3) or flurry of blows +3/+3 (1d8+3 unarmed strike).

Decisions, decisions.


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## Shade (May 19, 2009)

Yet another approach would be to note that they create specially-designed horseshoes that allow them to deal either piercing (spikes) or slashing (sickles) damage instead of bludgeoning with their hoof attacks.   These could be exotic weapons and they could have weapon familiarity with them (thus treating them as martial weapons).


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## Cleon (May 19, 2009)

Shade said:


> Yet another approach would be to note that they create specially-designed horseshoes that allow them to deal either piercing (spikes) or slashing (sickles) damage instead of bludgeoning with their hoof attacks.   These could be exotic weapons and they could have weapon familiarity with them (thus treating them as martial weapons).




That's more or less how I imagined their gauntlets and sickles would be designed, since they're formed for hoof-hands rather than humanoid hands.

Are we OK with the light crossbow proficiency?

We seem to be having trouble reaching any consensus on the melee weapons, so we're throwing out ideas to see what sticks.

At the moment, the two most up-to-date proposals are:

*Full Attack:* 2 hooves +5 melee (1d4+3) or primary weapon +3 melee (1d6+3 gauntlet/1d8+3 sickle or armour spike) and off-hoof weapon +3 melee (1d6+1 gauntlet / 1d8+1 armour spike)

or

*Full Attack:* 2 hooves +5 melee (1d4+3) [bludgeoning, can use spiked or bladed horseshoes to convert to piercing or slashing damage]

Plus the crossbow +3 ranged (2d6 light / 2d8 heavy) 

Maybe we should try a different tack - do we want the melee weapons to be a definite boost to the Houyhnhnm's melee capacity (a couple more points of damage), or more flavour (switching damage types)?


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## freyar (May 20, 2009)

Ugh.  I just read all that and can't come up with a great solution.

What's the precedent on treating a manufactured weapon like a natural attack?

I think the weapons should probably increase the damage, but changing types is some improvement also.


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## Cleon (May 20, 2009)

freyar said:


> Ugh.  I just read all that and can't come up with a great solution.
> 
> What's the precedent on treating a manufactured weapon like a natural attack?
> 
> I think the weapons should probably increase the damage, but changing types is some improvement also.




Well if I remember rightly, Monks are the only SRD precedent for mixing up natural and wielded weapons. That's one reason I quite like the notion of giving Houhnhnym a flurry of blows type ability with its specialist weapons.


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## Shade (May 20, 2009)

Cleon said:


> Maybe we should try a different tack - do we want the melee weapons to be a definite boost to the Houyhnhnm's melee capacity (a couple more points of damage), or more flavour (switching damage types)?





I'd prefer flavor.  Since they are akin to monks, many monk weapons are nothing more than flavor.  In about half the cases or more, a weapon is actually suboptimal to the monk's unarmed strike damage, but offers the option of different damage types and possible extra properties (like flaming, frost, and so forth).


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## freyar (May 20, 2009)

I'd say let's allow them to treat armor spikes and/or spiked gauntlets as monk weapons.


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## Cleon (May 21, 2009)

freyar said:


> I'd say let's allow them to treat armor spikes and/or spiked gauntlets as monk weapons.




OK, we seem to be getting somewhere with the Monk model.

I'd add gauntlets to the list, and give them kama as a weapon proficiency as well (they're practically identical to sickles, after all).

What about the Flurry of Blows idea?

If we say they can Flurry as a 4th or 5th level monk the Base Attack Bonus will match (3HD magical beast = +3 BAB = 4th or 5th level Monk), and it gets two attacks with gauntlets/kamas/spikes at -2 (4th level) or -1  (5th level) attack, each doing 1d6+3 (gauntlets) or 1d8+3 (kama/spike).

I'd go for 4th level, myself.

I would think that they would just get the Flurry of Blows attacks without any other monk abilities like improved Unarmed Strike damage, unless they actually get levels in Monk of course.

Should levels in Flurry stack? So a Houyhnhnm 2nd level Monk flurries as a 6th (+3/+3) or 7th (+4/+4) level one?

I'm also wondering whether it is wandering into Challenge Rating 3 territory. If we give it armour proficiency (light) and armour spiked studded leather, its full-attack damage is only a little weaker than an ogre and it has better saves plus much better speed and missile range.

Armor Class: 16 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +3 armour, +3 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 15
Full Attack: 2 hooves +5 melee (1d4+3) or armour spikes +3/+3 melee (1d8+3)[_maybe +4/+4 melee?_] or light crossbow +3 melee (2d6)


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## freyar (May 24, 2009)

If we go with flurry, then it should stack with monk levels.  I guess I can see flurry for the gauntlets, at least.  Hmm.  I wouldn't go with any other monk abilities, though.


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## Shade (May 26, 2009)

During the multi-day outage, I worked on flavor text for these guys.   After re-reading the entry, I think we are focusing far too much on making these fellows adequate combatants.

Based on the original text, few, if any, would be warriors.   Most houyhnhnm should be Experts.   I'm still fine with giving the special monk weapons and whatnot to houyhnhnm monks, but I think we should back off on flurry of blows and similar mechanics for standard houyhnhnm.   This is a race of peaceful philosophers, who have only engaged in battle once in their history.


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## freyar (May 26, 2009)

This sounds right to me.  So let's leave off weapons and armor and note that they have a kind of "weapon familiarity" to treat armor spikes and spiked gauntlets as monk weapons.  Also that they often wear barding if they aren't monks but are forced to fight.


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## Cleon (May 27, 2009)

Shade said:


> During the multi-day outage, I worked on flavor text for these guys.   After re-reading the entry, I think we are focusing far too much on making these fellows adequate combatants.
> 
> Based on the original text, few, if any, would be warriors.   Most houyhnhnm should be Experts.   I'm still fine with giving the special monk weapons and whatnot to houyhnhnm monks, but I think we should back off on flurry of blows and similar mechanics for standard houyhnhnm.   This is a race of peaceful philosophers, who have only engaged in battle once in their history.




Well I was aiming at a 'D&Dish interpretation' of the Houyhnhnm rather than an close simulacrum of their culture & history as they appear in Swift's novel. So they may not live in a lost world with no dangers, but may need the ability to cope with external threats.

As mentioned earlier, just giving them a few additional special monk weapons doesn't do much to help them with that.


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## Shade (May 27, 2009)

It looks like this one is going to get a faithful conversion and a "Cleon enhanced version".


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## freyar (May 27, 2009)

Cleon said:


> Well I was aiming at a 'D&Dish interpretation' of the Houyhnhnm rather than an close simulacrum of their culture & history as they appear in Swift's novel. So they may not live in a lost world with no dangers, but may need the ability to cope with external threats.
> 
> As mentioned earlier, just giving them a few additional special monk weapons doesn't do much to help them with that.



Can't they do like humanoids and gain class levels if they need to defend themselves? 

But an enhanced version is cool, too!


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## Shade (May 27, 2009)

Updated with flavor text.


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## freyar (May 27, 2009)

Are we going to let the monks use spiked gauntlets and armor spikes as monk weapons?  We could just list this in the nonproficiency.


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## Shade (May 27, 2009)

Absolutely!   I just hadn't worked it in yet.

Are there any other creatures that give special monk weapon proficiencies we can use as a model?


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## freyar (May 28, 2009)

I do feel like I've seen something like that somewhere, but I can't figure out where.


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## Shade (May 28, 2009)

I thought it was the buomman, but apparently not.


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## freyar (May 28, 2009)

Can we just add the following to the nonproficiency line?  "Houyhnhnms may treat spiked gauntlets and armor spikes as special monk weapons."

Also, perhaps we should also let them use regular gauntlets proficiently.


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## Shade (May 28, 2009)

Sounds good, but I think a namechange for the ability is in order.  "Nonproficiency" seems awkward when we're granting special proficiencies.

How about "Unusual Grip"?


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## Cleon (May 29, 2009)

Shade said:


> It looks like this one is going to get a faithful conversion and a "Cleon enhanced version".




I don't know where you could have got that idea from.

(Cleon whistles innocently while hiding a half-completed "Building a Better Houyhnhnm" write-up in a desk drawer.)


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## Cleon (May 29, 2009)

freyar said:


> I do feel like I've seen something like that somewhere, but I can't figure out where.




Yes, there is something very familiar about it, but I can't quite put my finger on what monster it was.



freyar said:


> Can we just add the following to the nonproficiency line? "Houyhnhnms may treat spiked gauntlets and armor spikes as special monk weapons."
> 
> Also, perhaps we should also let them use regular gauntlets proficiently.




Yup, I've already said we should include regular gauntlets.



Shade said:


> Sounds good, but I think a namechange for the ability is in order. "Nonproficiency" seems awkward when we're granting special proficiencies.
> 
> How about "Unusual Grip"?




Since it includes armour as well as weapons, maybe something like "Unusual Physique" would be a better name?


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## Shade (May 29, 2009)

Cleon said:


> Yup, I've already said we should include regular gauntlets.




Agreed.



Cleon said:


> Since it includes armour as well as weapons, maybe something like "Unusual Physique" would be a better name?




Love it!


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## freyar (May 29, 2009)

Sounds great to me!  Are these about done?


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## Shade (May 29, 2009)

Updated.

Is there anything left for this version?


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## Cleon (May 30, 2009)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Is there anything left for this version?




Let me have a glance through it...

Looks fine statwise, although I am wondering why the word ignorant is capitalized in "and are Ignorant of cruelty, warfare, and deception". Is that deliberate or a typo?

Seems good to go, I may post a "Cleon enhanced version" later this weekend.


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## Cleon (May 30, 2009)

*Building a Better Houyhnhnm*

Okay, here's how I think a 1st level Warrior Houyhnhnm would look, with a Flurry of Blows ability and some tweaks to Unusual Physique. I stuck all its Warrior skills into Handle Animal, since Swift described Houyhnhnm as raising livestock.

 *Houyhnhnm Warrior*
*1st level Warrior
*Large Magical Beast
*Hit Dice:* 4d10+12 (34 hp)
*Initiative:* +1
*Speed:* 60 ft. (12 squares)
*Armor Class:* 16 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +3 studded leather armour, +3 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 15
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +4/+11
*Attack:* Hoof +6 melee (1d4+3) or armour spike +6 melee (1d8+3) or light crossbow +4 ranged (2d6)
*Full Attack:* 2 hooves +6 melee (1d4+3) or armour spike +4/+4 melee (1d8+3) or light crossbow +4 ranged (2d6)
*Space/Reach:* 10 ft./5 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Flurry of blows
*Special Qualities:* Brave, low-light vision, scent, unusual physique
*Saves:* Fort +8, Ref +4, Will +3 (+5 vs. fear)
*Abilities:* Str 16, Dex 13, Con 17, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 12
*Skills:* Autohypnosis +5, Handle Animal +4, Jump +18, Listen +5, Spot +5, Survival +5, Swim +6
*Feats:* Endurance, Run
*Environment:* Temperate plains
*Organization:* Solitary, team (2-20) or herd (10-100)
*Challenge Rating:* 3
*Treasure:* No coins, standard goods, standard items
*Alignment:* Usually lawful neutral
*Advancement:* By character class
*Level Adjustment:* +2

_This well-groomed horse is obviously caparisoned for war, with spiked barding and a crossbow slung over its back. Curiously, it bears neither saddle or bridle._

Houyhnhnms speak Draconic and Sylvan with a voice that sounds like soft and mild neighing.

*Combat*

*Brave (Ex):* Houyhnhnms have a +2 racial bonus on saves against fear effects.

*Flurry of Blows (Ex):* A Houyhnhm can use flurry of blows as a 4th level monk. If it gains any levels in monk its monk level is increased by four for determining its flurry of blows ability.

*Unusual Physique (Ex):* Houyhnhnm can wear any form of barding that would fit a horse.

Although they can use weapons, houyhnhnms are unable to become proficient in any weapon other than crossbows, clubs, gauntlets, spiked gauntlets, scythe gauntlets and armour spikes, due to their hoof-like hands. Scythe gauntlets are martial weapons with stats identical to a sickle. All houyhnhnm are proficient in gauntlets and spiked gauntlets, they are not automatically proficient in any of the other weapons listed.

Houyhnhnms may treat gauntlets, spiked gauntlets, scythe-gauntlets and armour spikes as special monk weapons.


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## Cleon (May 30, 2009)

*Champion the Wonder Horse!*

And here's a Houyhnhnm 9th level monk, using the previous version of Flurry of Blows and Unusual Physique. I haven't bothered including the detailed writeups of its Monk and Houyhnhnm Special Attacks & Qualities.

Note that it flurries as a 13th level Monk (9th level Monk +4 levels from the Houyhnhnm's flurry of blows SA for a base of +9/+9/+9/+4), and if it uses its _amulet of magic fang_ it gets +1 enhancement to attack and damage for   Flurry of blows +14/+14/+14/+9 (2d8+5/19-20). Said amulet is a custom magic item that follows the SRD rules.

 *Houyhnhnm Champion*
*9th level Monk*
Large Magical Beast
*Hit Dice:* 3d10+9d8+48 (105 hp)
*Initiative:* +4
*Speed:* 90 ft. (18 squares)
*Armor Class:* 24 (-1 size, +4 Dex, +4 natural, +1 armour, +5 monk, +1 deflection), touch 19, flat-footed 20
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +9/+21
*Attack:* Unarmed strike +13 melee (2d8+4/19-20)
*Full Attack:* Flurry of blows +13/+13/+13/+8 (2d8+4/19-20)
*Space/Reach:* 10 ft./5 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Brave, flurry of blows, ki strike (magic), stunning fist
*Special Qualities:* Brave, improved evasion, low-light vision, purity of body [_immunity to natural diseases_], scent, slow fall (40 ft.), still mind [_+2 save vs Enchantment_], unusual physique, wholeness of body [_heal 18 hp/day to self_]
*Saves:* Fort +14, Ref +14, Will +14 (+16 vs. enchantment or fear)
*Abilities:* Str 19, Dex 18, Con 18, Int 14, Wis 18, Cha 10
*Skills:* Autohypnosis +8, Climb +13, Escape Artist +10, Hide +11, Jump +32, Listen +14, Move Silently +11, Spot +14, Survival +8, Swim +8, Tumble +13
*Feats:* Deflect ArrowsB, Endurance, Improved Critical (unarmed strike), Improved Grapple, Improved TripB, Iron Will, Stunning FistB, Weapon Focus (unarmed strike)
*Challenge Rating:* 11
*Alignment:* Lawful neutral
*Advancement:* By character class
*Level Adjustment:* +2

*Magic items:* _+1 bracers of armour, +1 ring of protection_, _+1 amulet of natural armour_, _+1 cloak or resistance,_ _amulet of magic fang_ (3/day, use-activated, caster level 1)


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## Shade (Jun 1, 2009)

Cleon said:


> Looks fine statwise, although I am wondering why the word ignorant is capitalized in "and are Ignorant of cruelty, warfare, and deception". Is that deliberate or a typo?




Probably due to Ignorance on my part.      I'll fix it.


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## Cleon (Jun 1, 2009)

Shade said:


> Probably due to Ignorance on my part.      I'll fix it.




Might as well.

What do you think of the Warrior and Champion Monk version?

The Monk looks a bit weak compared to other CR11 monsters like a Hezrou or Cloud Giant, but I think that's just due to the monk being a bit underpowered and the build being limited to SRD rules. Within those limits I think it's pretty soundly constructed.


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## freyar (Jun 1, 2009)

They look done.  And Cleon's versions look good, too!


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## Shade (Jun 5, 2009)

*Skorpio*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Deserts
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Tribal
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Low-average (4-8)
TREASURE: O,P
ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil
NO. APPEARING: 2-8
ARMOR CLASS: 0
MOVEMENT: 9
HIT DICE: 3
THAC0: 17
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: By weapon/1-6
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Poison
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Surprised only on a 1
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
SIZE: M (5-6' tall)
XP VALUE: 175

Skorpio are a vicious breed of bipedal scorpions believed to have been created by a magical experiment. They have large, compound eyes, a tan to dark brown exo-skeleton, and very dextrous human-like hands.

Combat: Skorpio do not take time to develop battle plans, rushing blindly upon anything they come across. They attack with weapons recovered from previous victims, favoring spears and swords. Every three minutes they also can attack with their long, flexible tails. At the end of a skorpio's tail is a sharp, venemous stinger fed by two poison-producing glands. A tail attack is made with a + 2 on the "to hit" roll. A victim hit by the stinger must save vs. poison or die in 2-5 rounds. The poison is a powerful neurotoxin, a successful save still results in 2d4 points of damage.  The skorpio's low Armor Class is due to its tough exoskeleton and exceptional dexterity.

Habitat/Society: Skorpios live in small clans in burrow-homes they construct under the sand. A few Skorpios prefer to live in the crevasses of rock formations. Their treasure is kept in their homes along with 1-12 females, 3-6 young, and 1-4 eggs.

Ecology: Skorpio are carnivorous, eating animals and humanoids. They are especially fond of humans because of the treasure they yield.

Originally appeared in Polyhedron #53 (1990).


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## Shade (Jun 5, 2009)

Let's compare them to the other two scorpionfolk...

Scorpionfolk (MM2):  Large, 12 HD, Str 19, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 15, poison 1d4 Dex/1d4 Dex, trample, SLAs.

Stinger (MoF):  Large, 4 HD, Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 12, poison 1d6 Str/1d6 Str, bolthole magic.


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## freyar (Jun 5, 2009)

Well, these are Medium and bipedal for one difference.  Skorpio poison sounds like Con damage (because it's deadly), but I wouldn't go any higher than 1d6/1d6, maybe even less.  They should have quite high Dex and some natural armor.  I don't like the "every 3 minute" limit on the tail attacks, but I could see a 1d4 round "recharge time" for the poison, I guess.  Also: monstrous humanoid?


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## Cleon (Jun 6, 2009)

freyar said:


> Well, these are Medium and bipedal for one difference.  Skorpio poison sounds like Con damage (because it's deadly), but I wouldn't go any higher than 1d6/1d6, maybe even less.  They should have quite high Dex and some natural armor.  I don't like the "every 3 minute" limit on the tail attacks, but I could see a 1d4 round "recharge time" for the poison, I guess.  Also: monstrous humanoid?




That's pretty well my thinking too, a 3HD Medium Monstrous Humanoid with a sting attack, high Dex and good natural armour.

The once per 3 rounds sting is peculiar, I'd just give it a regular secondary sting attack but with less potent venom, say 1d4/1d4 Con.

I'd be very tempted to give it a Weapon Finesse bonus feat which only applies to its sting.

So, what stats? I'm thinking something like: Str 13, Dex 18, Con 13, Int 5, Wis 12, Cha 10, +6 natural armour.

How shall we interpret its "surprised only on a 1", some combination of tremorsense and racial bonuses to Spot?


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## freyar (Jun 6, 2009)

I might even increase Dex and drop Str/Con a little, but what you have is pretty good.  Not sure I'd go above average for Wis, though.

I could see the less powerful poison.  Maybe even 1/1d4 if it can use it every round.

Usually we handle surprise through Spot as well as initiative (Dex helps with that already).  Tremorsense is a possibility thematically, but I'm not sure if it's a little too much for these.


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## Cleon (Jun 6, 2009)

freyar said:


> I might even increase Dex and drop Str/Con a little, but what you have is pretty good.  Not sure I'd go above average for Wis, though.




Well Dex 18 seems plenty high to me. The Strength is the same as a Hobgoblin or Medium-sized Monstrous Scorpion, which seems right to me. 

I got the Con and Wis by just averaging the Scorpionfolk and Stinger.

There's an argument for giving it a higher Con. The Monstrous Scorpion, Hobgob, Stinger and Aranea all have Con 14, and this creature has a high natural armour which could go well with an excellent Con, so we could twitch the Con up to 15.

I'm not bothered about the Wis, 10 or 12 both work for me.



freyar said:


> I could see the less powerful poison.  Maybe even 1/1d4 if it can use it every round.




A Medium Monstrous Scorpion has 1d3/1d3 Con poison, what about that?

Oh, and how much damage shall the stinger do? Assuming it's the 1-6 damage in the "DAMAGE/ATTACK: By weapon/1-6" that's more than 2nd ed AD&D giant scorpions and manscorpions, which had 1-4 damage stings, so it looks like the 3E version deserves 1d6 damage tailstings.



freyar said:


> Usually we handle surprise through Spot as well as initiative (Dex helps with that already).  Tremorsense is a possibility thematically, but I'm not sure if it's a little too much for these.




So a +4 or so racial bonus to Listen and Spot and no tremorsense?


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## freyar (Jun 7, 2009)

1d3/1d3 Con would work for the poison.  

+4 racial Spot/Listen is good if Shade agrees, sure.

Abilities aren't a big deal for me, either.


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## Leopold (Jun 8, 2009)

I'm interested in the abilities mostly as this creature can be considered a PC with ECLs. Low enough HD, a few special abilties here and there, and it's suitable to be converted over.

I like the Weapon Finesse (tail) and 1d4 rounds per use like a breath weapon for it's poison sting, but still give teh tail some damage.

Pass on tremorsense, buff up their skills and call it a day. This one won't be too hard.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 8, 2009)

Weapon Finesse across the board for me. Using the poison damage from Medium scorpions makes good sense. Not a big fan of tremorsense for these guys.


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## Shade (Jun 8, 2009)

Great stuff!   Added to Homebrews.

I dislike the "Weapon Finesse for 1 attack only", as that is the old way of doing things.  Let's just give 'em non-finessable weapons in the statblock, and achieve the same result without an uneccessary exception.

I also dislike the "recharge method" for the poison.  I agree with the lesser 1 Con/1d3 Con usable every round.

I think the +6 natural armor is a bit high.  I know the straight conversion yields AC 20, but that's awfully high for their probable CR.  Medium monstrous scorpions have a +4, and I'd be comfortable with that.  Thoughts?


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## Leopold (Jun 8, 2009)

+4 Natural Armor is fine.  

The 1d3 con damage attack every round is sufficent. I'd like the sting to do some sort of damage even if it fails.

Other feat: Endurance. Hardy lil critters who live in the desert.


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## freyar (Jun 8, 2009)

+4 natural works for me, too.  

I like Endurance for the 2nd feat.  Got to go with Spot and Listen or alternately Hide/Move Silently for the skills. 

You can drop the ? on the alignment, I think.  Standard treasure?

I think I like character class for advancement, but I'm open to other opinions.


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## Leopold (Jun 8, 2009)

This race screams out Barbarian for character advancement. 

Spot and listen, the description leads me to believe these guys don't care about being sneaky in the slightest.


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## Shade (Jun 8, 2009)

Agreed to all that.



> ORGANIZATION: Tribal
> NO. APPEARING: 2-8






> Skorpios live in small clans in burrow-homes they construct under the sand. A few Skorpios prefer to live in the crevasses of rock formations. Their treasure is kept in their homes along with 1-12 females, 3-6 young, and 1-4 eggs.




Organization: Solitary or tribe (2-8 plus 1-12 females and 3-6 noncombatant young)

It is unclear from the original description whether the females are noncombatants or equal to the males.  Thoughts?

A skorpio is 5 to 6 feet tall and weighs x pounds.

Skorpio speak x.


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## Leopold (Jun 8, 2009)

Scorpion females are just as nasty as males. Perhaps even more so. Make them equal. Give them a specail ability where if they are in the hive they get a free Barabarian Rage in protecting the young.


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## Shade (Jun 8, 2009)

That works for me!


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## Leopold (Jun 8, 2009)

Language: Common and Gutteral/Chirping/Insect


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## Cleon (Jun 9, 2009)

Shade said:


> I think the +6 natural armor is a bit high.  I know the straight conversion yields AC 20, but that's awfully high for their probable CR.  Medium monstrous scorpions have a +4, and I'd be comfortable with that.  Thoughts?




Well I like the AC20, it give them a "tough as old boots" stick. What sort of Challenge Rating are we aiming for anyway? We could put their deadly poison back in and make them a high CR for their HD.

How about giving them Hide armour and a lower natural armour which adds up to AC20. That would also explain why they're fairly slow compared to most Scorpions and unencumbered humanoids, they're wearing Medium armour.

AC20 (+4 Dex, Hide armour +3, +3 natural)

Or, we could lower Dex two points and give them a Medium Scorpion's +4 natural armour:

AC20 (+3 Dex, Hide armour +3, +4 natural)


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## Cleon (Jun 9, 2009)

Skills: Listen and Spot are fine, and I'd add Survival and Climb (so they can reach the "crevasses of rock formation" in the description).

Adding the Endurance feat is fine by me.

Advancement by character class seems appropriate as they areas much human as arachnid.

Favoured class Barbarian seems an excellent fit.

The females should be just as tough (if not tougher) fighters as the males. 

As for them going berserk when protecting their young, I guess that's OK. I'd be tempted to add a note that if they get rage from another source this is boosted to a minimum of Greater Rage if they're defending they're young.

I also like the idea of the females carrying their babies around on their backs, like real scorpions, and fighting in a berserk frenzy while doing so.


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## Shade (Jun 9, 2009)

I like the hide armor idea.

How about giving them the skill bonuses of a monstrous scorpion (+4 racial bonus on Climb, Hide, and Spot checks) rather than the +4 Listen/+4 Spot?  That would help with the climbing.

For the female "frenzy", I wasn't thinking of giving them an extra ability...just flavor text.  If we did give them something, I'd rather give them something like the boar's ferocity or a conditional bonus on saves against fear effects (to simulate higher morale).



> I also like the idea of the females carrying their babies around on their backs, like real scorpions, and fighting in a berserk frenzy while doing so.




Love it!


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## Leopold (Jun 9, 2009)

Glad y'all liked the young idea, I got it from wikipedia after seeing pictures of very large nasty female scorpions with their young carried on their back.

These things are applicable to be Player Characters so we don't want to make them too tough. If we want to advance them out we can make them have levels in barbarian with an average of 1-2 levels for your common monster.


I'll go with Climb/Hide/Spot. These aren't the stealthiest critters on the planet.  What about Jump or we just using their str as part of it?


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## Cleon (Jun 9, 2009)

Leopold said:


> These things are applicable to be Player Characters so we don't want to make them too tough. If we want to advance them out we can make them have levels in barbarian with an average of 1-2 levels for your common monster.




How tough is too tough? I doubt they'll end up tougher than an ogre, and that's only a 4HD +2LA.



Shade said:


> How about giving them the skill bonuses of a monstrous scorpion (+4 racial bonus on Climb, Hide, and Spot checks) rather than the +4 Listen/+4 Spot?  That would help with the climbing.






Leopold said:


> I'll go with Climb/Hide/Spot. These aren't the stealthiest critters on the planet. What about Jump or we just using their str as part of it?




A racial bonus to Climb, Hide and Spot seems a good idea to me. They'll need something to help them out, since their low Int will make them short of skill points.

I don't see anything to suggest they'll have a racial bonus in Jump, though.

I'd give them Survival as a class skill, without any racial bonus.


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## Leopold (Jun 9, 2009)

> How tough is too tough? I doubt they'll end up tougher than an ogre, and that's only a 4HD +2LA.




I was thinking of these as a LA of 1 or ECL 4. A 5th level cleric would have about 20AC with shield and such so it would be about right if we moved their armor up a notch. 

Since we are plan on working these in with Barbarians do we want to change their HD to d12s to make it mesh better?


Survival is fine addition. I threw in  jump as it would climb rocks then jump down on it's prey. Scorpions lie in wait and it was just a thought with these guys climbing up rocks and then falling on their prey.


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## Cleon (Jun 9, 2009)

Leopold said:


> I was thinking of these as a LA of 1 or ECL 4. A 5th level cleric would have about 20AC with shield and such so it would be about right if we moved their armor up a notch.




Quite, either full plate and heavy shield or lighter armour and a good Dex to get AC20 is easily achievable by a 4th level character.



Leopold said:


> Since we are plan on working these in with Barbarians do we want to change their HD to d12s to make it mesh better?




Are you suggesting changing their Monstrous Humanoid Hit Dice from d8 to d12? That doesn't sound a very good idea to me, plus I don't believe there's a precedent for it.


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## Leopold (Jun 9, 2009)

> Are you suggesting changing their Monstrous Humanoid Hit Dice from d8 to d12? That doesn't sound a very good idea to me, plus I don't believe there's a precedent for it.




Yes I was. It was an idea, didn't know the feasability of said idea.  Figured it would be easy on the math (all d12s vs d8+d12), but in the end isn't normal conversion so skip it.


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## freyar (Jun 9, 2009)

Lots to read there, and I don't think I'll process it all until Shade updates.

Still, I don't really like the hide armor idea so much because of this:


> The skorpio's low Armor Class is due to its tough exoskeleton and exceptional dexterity.



Unless we want the AC to go above 20.  I think the reason they're slower than other scorpion-critters is that they're bipedal.


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## Shade (Jun 9, 2009)

Good point, freyar.  Let's ditch the Hide armor, and go back to +6 natural if you guys really want AC 20.

CR 3 sounds about right.  They can't dish out as much direct damage as an ogre, and have one less HD, but the Con-damaging poison every round evens that out.

Updated.

By the Savage Species guidelines, LA breaks down as follows:
+2 for poison where the affected ability score is constitution
+2 for natural armor greater than +5
+1 for three or more racial bonuses on skill checks
-----
+5 total

I could see going as low as +3, though.


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## freyar (Jun 9, 2009)

100-200 lb.

Whatever works for the LA is fine with me.  I know a lot of people in the rules forum complain about LA (think it's too much of a penalty), so I guess reducing the LA is ok.


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## Leopold (Jun 9, 2009)

I'll be honest, this is my favorite part of the monster conversion. Something about this LA/ECL gets me giddy. I know, I need therapy but work with me.

Let's not forget it's massive ability score swing:
+2 STR
+8 Dex
+2 Con
-6 Int
+2 Wis

(I think everything is in multiples of 2, it's been YEARS since I read SS religiously )

I would give it +2 at max.

 This creature vs a 6th level cleric vs a Skorpoid/Bar1 a cleric would trounce him easily with his spells, more feats,  greater skill range (-6 to INT hurts), and ability to wear more/better armor.  Sure this thing has the poison, but's DC12 and the cleric's spells are at least 15 or better (Average Wis of 16+Second level spells).  

When you hit 7th level this creature will fall behind in the damage dealing, abilties, and access to a few magical items that's level appropriate..  Skorpoid doesn't move faster, or have anything to edge it out in combat except it's tail sting, darkvision, and ability scores. 

3 is too much, 2 makes it look tempting with those ability bonus', 1 is too low vs a 5th level cleric.

Favored Class: Barbarian 

I could really see this thing as a 6th level barbarian with uncanny dodge weaving in and out of combat and beating the snot out of characters.


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## Shade (Jun 9, 2009)

I gotta stand by +3.  An ogre is +2, with worse natural armor, worse overall ability modifiers (both have +14 total, but ogre is -10 compared to skorpio's -6), and no poison (which can be *deadly*).

Scorpionfolk have +4, and although better on ability scores and a few extra natural attacks and trample, their poison is less deadly (Dex rather than Con), and their limited SLAs are almost non-factors.


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## Leopold (Jun 9, 2009)

Ogre also has:
Large size
an additional HD
Reach (10')
Lowlight and Darkvsion
Faster speed +10'

3 just seems a bit much, 2 seems reasonable.  If you want to make it 3 then I defer to you.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 9, 2009)

La +3.


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## Shade (Jun 9, 2009)

The HD of giant isn't "worth" as much as monstrous humanoid, since its BAB progression is slower and saves are worse.  Plus, the skorpio gets more attacks each round.

Trust me...a player character with a chance of once per round Con damage is a force to be reckoned with (I speak from personal experience as a DM of one ).  A wise PC will take Ability Focus (poison) to really make a mess of the opposition.

Updated.

Ready to move on?


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 10, 2009)

It looks pretty darn good to me. I almost missed this one entirely!


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## Cleon (Jun 10, 2009)

Shade said:


> The HD of giant isn't "worth" as much as monstrous humanoid, since its BAB progression is slower and saves are worse.  Plus, the skorpio gets more attacks each round.
> 
> Trust me...a player character with a chance of once per round Con damage is a force to be reckoned with (I speak from personal experience as a DM of one ).  A wise PC will take Ability Focus (poison) to really make a mess of the opposition.




Yes, LA +3 seems the most appropriate.



Shade said:


> Ready to move on?




I'm not sure about Longsword as its default weapon, just doesn't seem "desert primitive" enough. I was thinking Battleaxe, Warhammer or Falchion. Although I guess they could loot a lot of longswords from travellers.

Should we give them a ranged weapons, Javelins maybe?

While we're on the subject of weapons, what weapon proficiencies do they have as default - I'm tempted to say they're skilled in all simple weapons and all martial melee weapons.


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## freyar (Jun 10, 2009)

I could go for falchion plus javelin, sure.  Don't use falchions much.

Aren't monsters just supposed to be proficient with whatever weapons are in their stat block?  But I can't remember if that's by class (martial, say) or just specifics.


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## Cleon (Jun 10, 2009)

freyar said:


> I could go for falchion plus javelin, sure.  Don't use falchions much.




Yes, falchion and javelin is my favourite among the proposals.



freyar said:


> Aren't monsters just supposed to be proficient with whatever weapons are in their stat block?  But I can't remember if that's by class (martial, say) or just specifics.




The default is they get whatever's in their type, which for Monstrous Humanoids like the Skorpio it's "Proficient with all simple weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry."

Since they're described as using the weapons of foes they've defeated, I think their entry should include martial melee weapons so they can actually wield these looted arms without penalty. I'm imagining a group of Skorpios may have quite an eclectic weapons mix, depending on whatever stolen weapons they found are the best.


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## freyar (Jun 10, 2009)

Oh, yeah, right. I could support adding a martial proficiency SQ, sure.  It definitely fits their MO.


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## Cleon (Jun 10, 2009)

freyar said:


> Oh, yeah, right. I could support adding a martial proficiency SQ, sure.  It definitely fits their MO.




It don't think it needs a SQ, just a line in their description "Skorpios are proficient in all simple weapons and all melee martial weapons", it's like Languages, you don't add a SQ for "Skorpios can speak Common and Skorpionish", after all.


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## freyar (Jun 10, 2009)

True, though weapon proficiencies sometimes end up with SQs for whatever reason.  I'm happy either way.


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## Shade (Jun 10, 2009)

Cleon said:


> Yes, falchion and javelin is my favourite among the proposals.




This works for me, since the original text mentions their preference for swords and spears.

Updated.


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## Leopold (Jun 10, 2009)

She looks clean captain. Next critter.


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## Cleon (Jun 10, 2009)

Shade said:


> This works for me, since the original text mentions their preference for swords and spears.
> 
> Updated.




When in full attack, shouldn't its tail count as a secondary weapon so lose the +1 damage bonus?

Also, it needs a "Skorpios as Player Characters" write up, as they're supposed to be PC-worthy. May I suggest:

*Skorpios as Player Characters*


Strength +2, Dexterity +8, Constitution +2, Intelligence -6, Wisdom +2.
Size Medium.
A skorpio's base land speed is 30 feet.
Darkvision 60 ft.
Racial Hit Dice: A skorpio begins with three levels of Monstrous Humanoid, which provide 3d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +3, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +1, Ref +3, and Will +3.
Racial Skills: A skorpio's Monstrous Humanoid levels give it skill points equal to 6 × (2 + Int modifier). Its class skills are Climb, Hide, Spot and Survival.
Racial Skill Bonuses: A skorpio has a +4 racial bonus on Climb, Hide, and Spot checks.
Racial Feats: A skorpio's Monstrous Humanoid levels give it two feats.
Proficiency in simple weapons and all melee martial weapons.
+6 natural armour bonus.
Automatic Languages: Common. Bonus Languages: Goblin, Giant, Gnoll and Orc. Skorpios speak with a gutteral, chirping accent.
Favoured Class: Barbarian.
Poison (Ex): A skorpio has a venomous stinger doing 1d6 piercing damage that it may use as a primary or secondary natural attack. Its poison does initial damage 1 Con, secondary damage 1d3 Con. The save DC is Constitution-based.
Level Adjustment: +3.
                            I gave them Orc, Goblin Gnoll and Giant as bonus languages since they seem the kind to hang out with humanoid monsters.


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## freyar (Jun 10, 2009)

I'm happy to adopt Cleon's PC section and call them done. Agreed?


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## Shade (Jun 10, 2009)

Looks good.  Updated.


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## freyar (Jun 10, 2009)

There's a typo in the coloration ("tand" instead of "tan"), but I think we're otherwise good.


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## Shade (Jun 10, 2009)

Fixed.


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## Cleon (Jun 10, 2009)

Shade said:


> Fixed.




The stats look fine, but the description uses skorpio/skorpios interchangeably as a plural, which looks a trifle clumsy.

E.g.: we've got both "Skorpio are a race of sentient, bipedal scorpions that terrorize the deserts." and "Skorpios are proficient with all simple weapons and all melee martial weapons."

Admittedly the original Polyhedron magazine write up does the same.

Shall we tweak it so its more consistent? Pick one plural and get rid of the other? I'm thinking "Skorpio" as the plural (and singular), since it appears most often as a plural and I like the ring of it.

"Three Skorpio leap out and attack!"


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## Shade (Jun 10, 2009)

Good point.

Corrected.


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## Cleon (Jun 10, 2009)

Shade said:


> Good point.
> 
> Corrected.




Fine, the Skorpio looks done.

Who's up next?


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## Shade (Oct 1, 2009)

Composite mummies resemble normal mummies, except that they have the heads of crocodiles, hippos or jackals. There are two of each type. They are unarmed save for the jackal-mummies, who carry black iron ankhs. 

*Composite Mummies (Crocodile):* 2; AL LE; IN Low; SZ M; MV 6"; AC 3; STw 12, STs 13; HD 6+3; hp 24 each; THAC0 13; #AT 2 hands/1 bite; Dmg 1d12/1d12/2d4; XPV 1342 each.
*Composite Mummies (Jackal): *2; AL LE; IN Low; SZ M; MV 6"; AC 3; STw 12, STs 13; HD 6+3; hp 21 each; THAC0 13; #AT 1 bite/1 ankh; Dmg 1d6/1d8; XPV 1318 each.
*Composite Mummies (Hippo):* 2; AL LE; IN Low; SZ M; MV 6"; AC 3; STw 12, STs 13; HD 6+3; hp 29 each; THAC0 13; Dmg 1d12/1d12/2d6; XPV 1382 each.

Special Attacks (All): Disease per touch (fatal in 1d6 months unless cure disease is applied; permanent loss of 2 charisma points for each month disease progresses; negates cure wound spells until cured; victim heals at 10% of normal rate); any creature seeing a mummy must save vs. spel1s or be paralyzed with fear for 1d4 rounds (+2 bonus to saving throw for humans; +1 bonus to all saves for each opponent over 6/mummy).
Special Defenses (All): +1 or better weapon to hit; immune to sleep, charm, hold, cold, poison, and paralysis; takes 1/2 damage from all magical weapons.

Notes (All): Magical fire does extra damage (+ 1/die); torch inflicts 1d3 points; holy water inflicts 1 d8 points per vial; burning oil inflicts 1d8 points per vial on the first round, and 2d8 points the second; anyone slain by mummy is permanently dead unless cure disease and raise dead are used within 6 turns; raise dead kills composite mummy unless a save vs. spells is successful. (It cannot exist in its semi-human form alive.)

Originally appeared in Polyhedron #31 (1986).


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## Shade (Oct 1, 2009)

These aren't terribly exciting, as written.  We could probably just make 'em a template to add to a mummy that gives it a bite attack equal to the appropriate animal.

If we want to get creative, though, we could give them some "totem" characteristics of the grafted animal.  Perhaps some cunning-related ability for the jackal, added durability for the hippo, stealth and/or grapple for the crocodile, and so on...


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## Cleon (Oct 2, 2009)

Shade said:


> These aren't terribly exciting, as written.  We could probably just make 'em a template to add to a mummy that gives it a bite attack equal to the appropriate animal.
> 
> If we want to get creative, though, we could give them some "totem" characteristics of the grafted animal.  Perhaps some cunning-related ability for the jackal, added durability for the hippo, stealth and/or grapple for the crocodile, and so on...




Yes, they do need jazzing up, they have identical stats to standard mummies apart from having 2 or 3 attacks and dying if you ressurrect them, which does make them nastier but not terribly interesting.

I'd prefer to use these bare-bone stats as an inspiration for three new monsters. We could certainly slap on some animal-based SA/SQ. I also feel they're mummies sacred to animal gods like ancient Egypt's Sobek (crocodile-headed god), Anubis (jackal-headed god) and Taweret (hippopotamus-headed goddess) so maybe we could add some thematically appropriate supernatural/spell-like powers.

Oh, and I'm thinking we should give them some turn resistance, probably +2 like a spectre.

It'll be easier doing them all at once, although I'd like to keep their final stats separate.

So to begin with, I think they should have at least the 8 hit dice of a standard SRD Mummy, and give them strong differentiation in their stats.

Hmm, we may want to make the Hippo and Croc-Mummies both Large size as well to partially justify their higher stats (after all, they're likely a cross between a Huge hippopotamus or giant crocodile and a Medium human).

*The Hippo-Mummy* could have incredible Strength, Say Str 30 like an elephant, so it has 2 slams doing 1d6+10 as its primary attacks and a 2d6+5 damage bite as a secondary attack. All with added mummy rot, obviously. That way it has 2 slams that each do the same damage as a standard mummy (1d6+10 in 3E, 1-12 in AD&D).

*The Crocodile-Mummy* could have incredible Toughness. Maybe give it a higher DR than a standard mummy's 5/-? It could also be stronger than a standard mummy, just not as much as the Hippo. Say, Str 27 but with sharp claws instead of the hippo-mummy's slams, giving it two 1d8+8 claws and a 2d6+4 bite?

*The Jackal-Mummy* has the lowest damage so let's say it's only as strong as a regular Mummy and is only Medium sized. It is armed with an ankh, I guess we could treat that as a battle axe (1d8+7 damage) plus a bite for, say, 1d8+3 damage? It needs something to bring it up to par with the other two mummies - some kind of magical powers? We could make it faster (or give it a normal Mummy's speed and say one of its abilities is an _expeditious retreat_ SLA).


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## Shade (Oct 2, 2009)

As a huge Lost fan, Taweret is near and dear to my heart.  

For the jackal mummy, we might appropriate and alter the following jackal lord ability...

Curse of the Jackal (Su): Once per day, a jackal lord can make a gaze attack against a single opponent within 30 feet. If the target fails a Will save (DC 20), it is transformed into a jackal (use the statistics for the dog in the Monster Manual). The effect is as baleful polymorph, but with a permanent duration. A jackal lord can reverse this effect by gazing upon an individual that was cursed by itself or by some other jackal lord, but doing so counts as its use of the ability for that day. Otherwise, only a limited wish, miracle, or wish can restore the victim.

Since Anubis is the god associated with mummification and the afterlife, perhaps the jackal headed mummy should be the toughest of the bunch? 

If we want to get really crazy, we could give the hippo mummy something that ties into Taweret's fertility...like a curse where the victim gives birth to a scorpion swarm.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 3, 2009)

The jackal mummy should be LN, more associated with guarding and protecting the dead rather than just killing people. The crocodile mummy can certainly be meaner, but might have water-based powers, due to Sobek's dominion over the Nile. For the hippo mummy, I like the idea of them being twisted fertility things--perhaps they cannot injure a pregnant woman? Perhaps they appear to avenge deeds done against expecting mothers?


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## Cleon (Oct 3, 2009)

Shade said:


> As a huge Lost fan, Taweret is near and dear to my heart.
> 
> For the jackal mummy, we might appropriate and alter the following jackal lord ability...
> 
> Curse of the Jackal (Su): *SNIP*




That looks good to me. I was also thinking of clerical powers for the Jackal Mummy, maybe including rebuke undead. Perhaps a spell-like ability to create Undead from the tomb-robbers it has dealt with, turning them into zombies, wights or actual mummies?



demiurge1138 said:


> The jackal mummy should be LN, more associated with guarding and protecting the dead rather than just killing people. The crocodile mummy can certainly be meaner, but might have water-based powers, due to Sobek's dominion over the Nile. For the hippo mummy, I like the idea of them being twisted fertility things--perhaps they cannot injure a pregnant woman? Perhaps they appear to avenge deeds done against expecting mothers?




I'd rather keep them all Evil like the originals. The Jackal Mummy doesn't have to be a _nice_ guardian of the dead.

I was wondering about water powers for the Croc-Mummy and Hippo-Mummy as well. They look like they should make a nice couple.

Unfortunately there aren't many water-based spells or powers in the SRD. We could give them something like control Water, water walk, fog cloud, the ability to summon a hippopotamus, giant crocodile or water elementals (1 Large or 1d4+2 Medium?) or the ability to create a whirlpool like an H20 elemental.

Oh, and we should give them a Swim speed, obviously.


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## freyar (Oct 5, 2009)

Hmm, interesting ideas.  

Regarding alignment: if we're going to associate them explicitly with the Egyptian gods, let's make the jackals LN.  Otherwise, keep them LE.


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## Cleon (Oct 5, 2009)

freyar said:


> Hmm, interesting ideas.
> 
> Regarding alignment: if we're going to associate them explicitly with the Egyptian gods, let's make the jackals LN.  Otherwise, keep them LE.




Rather than having them explicitly Egyptian, I'd rather make them pseudo-Egyptian to honour D&D's grand olde tradition of sinister lost ancient desert civilizations that just coincidentally are crammed with pyramids, mummies, sphinxes and animal-headed deities.

So put me down for Lawful Evil jackal mummies.


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## Shade (Oct 5, 2009)

Let's go "lawful" with the jackal-heads, and come up with both neutral and evil variations.

Set is often depicted (at least in D&D) as jackal-headed, so that supports the evil aspect.


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## freyar (Oct 5, 2009)

Shade said:


> Let's go "lawful" with the jackal-heads, and come up with both neutral and evil variations.
> 
> Set is often depicted (at least in D&D) as jackal-headed, so that supports the evil aspect.



That seems eminently reasonable.


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## Shade (Oct 5, 2009)

I assume we're doing these as monsters rather than templates, correct?

We might look to the greater mummy template in DD&G for inspiration, though, as it is primarily associated with the Pharaonic patheon.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 6, 2009)

You are correct that we're doing these as base creatures.


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## Shade (Oct 6, 2009)

12 HD for all?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 6, 2009)

Maybe a bit higher. Regular mummies have 8 HD in 3.5, after all.


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## Shade (Oct 6, 2009)

Double it to 16 HD, then?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 6, 2009)

Sure thing!


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## Shade (Oct 6, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

I raised the Int to 12, since the greater mummy template provides a +2 bonus to all mental stats.

Give 'em +4 turn resistance like greater mummy?

Give 'em improved grab like crocodile?

Do we want to upgrade mummy rot to mummy scourge?

Mummy Scourge (Su): Supernatural disease—slam, Fortitude save (DC 24), incubation period 5 rounds; damage 1d6 temporary Strength, 1d6 temporary Constitution, and 1d6 temporary Charisma. Unlike normal diseases, mummy scourge continues until the victim reaches Constitution 0 (and dies) or receives a remove disease spell or similar magic (see Disease, Chapter 3: Running the Game, in teh DUNGEON MASTER's Guide).

An afflicted creature that dies shrivels away into sand and dust that blow away into nothing at the first wind unless both a remove disease and raise dead are cast on the remains within 6 rounds.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 6, 2009)

The only difference between rot and scourge is that incubation time is halved, right?


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## Cleon (Oct 7, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Maybe a bit higher. Regular mummies have 8 HD in 3.5, after all.




Well, if they're a size larger than regular mummies I guess it makes sense for them to have double the Hit Dice.



Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> I raised the Int to 12, since the greater mummy template provides a +2 bonus to all mental stats.
> 
> ...




Since they've got a lot more Hit Dice than standard Mummies I'd think they wouldn't need such a high turn resistance, +2 is probably sufficient, and I think standard Mummy Rot is good enough.

I'd definitely give it Improved Grab with its bite.

I'm also imagining these Croc-headed mummies as being physically superior but mentally none so special, so I'd give them the standard Int 10. When we get to the Jackal-headed mummy I'd go for good mental abilities to enhance the better supernatural or spell powers I fancy for them.


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## Cleon (Oct 7, 2009)

Cleon said:


> Well, if they're a size larger than regular mummies I guess it makes sense for them to have double the Hit Dice.




Here's an idea: I'm thinking these creatures are melee monsters, a role that core Undead are not very good at. But these things are emblematic of their gods, so what it they are under a continuous effect similar to the _divine power_ or _righteous might_ spell? The former would give them full BAB, the latter would explain why they are Large sized despite their parts mostly being human. I'll rough it out as so:*Might of the Gods (Su):* A composite mummy constantly benefits from an effect similar to both the _divine power_ and the _righteous might_ spell. This gives the Mummy a Base Attack Bonus equal to its Hit Dice, a +6 enhancement bonus to Strength and a +2 enhancement bonus to natural armour, +1 hit points per Hit Dice, and increases its size by one step (to Large).

All of these bonuses are included in its statistics above. Should the composite mummy enters an area under the effects of an _anti-magic field__hallow_ dedicated to a god opposed to its patron the mummy loses all its Might of the Gods benefits, changing its statistics to the following:

*STUFF*

The composite mummy's patron god can suspend its gift on the mummy whenever it wishes (effects as above) to punish its creature for some misdeed or blasphemy. The god can also remove the Might of the Gods quality from a composite mummy that has entirely lost its divine favour, which causes the mummy to be immediately destroyed.​That would make the Croc Mummy HD 16d12+16 (120 hp), AC 23 (-1 size, +14 natural), BAB +16, Str 30 (higher than the current Str 27).

Without the benefits it's Medium-sized, HD 16d12 (104 hp), AC 21, BAB +8, Str 24 and has its weapon attacks downgraded.

Oh, I also like the idea of giving the Croc Mummy a slightly higher Dex, since both a regular and giant crocodile have Dex 12.

How about Dex 13, to give it some more feat options? That would also increase its AC by a point.

Oh, and what about my earlier suggestion that the Croc Mummy has a spell-like ability to summon crocodiles (regular or giant) and water elementals?

EDIT: By the way, I've changed my mind about making the Jackal Mummy Medium-sized. I quite like the idea of a 12-foot Jackal-headed Undead, so let's make them Large as well, but with a lower Strength bonus from Might of the Gods - say +4 like _righteous might_ gives, so they get Strength 28. 

Oh, and the Hippo Mummy could get a higher Strength bonus from Might of the Gods, say +8 or +10, giving it a higher Strength than the 30 I proposed earlier. I like +10 for Str 34, equal to a combination of both the +4 size from _righteous might_ and the +6 enhancement from _divine power_.

EDITED EDIT: I remembered the base Mummy has Str 24, not the 20 I used in my original draft of this post, so  I re-tweaked the proposed Strengths.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 8, 2009)

Although the permanent divine power and righteous might is an interesting idea, it could get pretty complicated, what with a dispel magic and all that. Perhaps we should give them something like:

Unholy Power (Su): A composite mummy gains its Charisma bonus to all attack rolls and grapple checks.


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## freyar (Oct 8, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Although the permanent divine power and righteous might is an interesting idea, it could get pretty complicated, what with a dispel magic and all that. Perhaps we should give them something like:
> 
> Unholy Power (Su): A composite mummy gains its Charisma bonus to all attack rolls and grapple checks.



That's a simple and elegant solution.


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## Shade (Oct 8, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> The only difference between rot and scourge is that incubation time is halved, right?




It also damages Str on top of the other physical scores affected by mummy rot.



Cleon said:


> Since they've got a lot more Hit Dice than standard Mummies I'd think they wouldn't need such a high turn resistance, +2 is probably sufficient, and I think standard Mummy Rot is good enough.




If we're going the "chosen of the gods" route, I think they should be on par with vampires at +4.



Cleon said:


> I'd definitely give it Improved Grab with its bite.




I'll add it.



Cleon said:


> I'm also imagining these Croc-headed mummies as being physically superior but mentally none so special, so I'd give them the standard Int 10. When we get to the Jackal-headed mummy I'd go for good mental abilities to enhance the better supernatural or spell powers I fancy for them.






Cleon said:


> Oh, I also like the idea of giving the Croc Mummy a slightly higher Dex, since both a regular and giant crocodile have Dex 12.
> 
> How about Dex 13, to give it some more feat options? That would also increase its AC by a point.




I'll spot you the Dex if you let me keep the Int.  



Cleon said:


> Oh, and what about my earlier suggestion that the Croc Mummy has a spell-like ability to summon crocodiles (regular or giant) and water elementals?




That works for me, but could we stick to just crocs and giant crocs?  I'm not really feeling the water elemental vibe.  Plus, "summon crocodiles" sounds better than "summon crocodiles and water elementals".  



demiurge1138 said:


> Although the permanent divine power and righteous might is an interesting idea, it could get pretty complicated, what with a dispel magic and all that. Perhaps we should give them something like:
> 
> Unholy Power (Su): A composite mummy gains its Charisma bonus to all attack rolls and grapple checks.






			
				freyar said:
			
		

> That's a simple and elegant solution.




Agreed.

If we're worried about the hit points, we can always give 'em unholy toughness as well.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 9, 2009)

Unholy toughness is always good. I like scourge instead of rot.


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## Cleon (Oct 9, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Although the permanent divine power and righteous might is an interesting idea, it could get pretty complicated, what with a dispel magic and all that. Perhaps we should give them something like:
> 
> Unholy Power (Su): A composite mummy gains its Charisma bonus to all attack rolls and grapple checks.




Well, part of my concept was Might of the Gods couldn't be dispelled, the only way to suppress it was with anti-magic or by facing the mummy on ground consecrated to an "enemy god". As for the complexity, it's really only a few stat changes, no different from having a buff spell removed.

Perhaps the following rewrite would make it clearer:*Might of the Gods (Su):* The god in whose image a composite mummy is crafted grants the mummy supernatural size and strength. This gives the Mummy a Base Attack Bonus equal to its Undead Hit Dice, a +6 unholy bonus to Strength, a +2 size bonus to natural armour, a +2 unholy bonus to natural armour, +1 hit points per Hit Dice, and increases its size by one step (to Large). All of these bonuses are included in its statistics above.

Might of the Gods cannot be dispelled or broken by any mortal magic, although its effects are temporarily suppressed while the composite mummy is within an _anti-magic _effect or an area consecrated to a god inimical to the mummy's divine patron, via a _hallow _spell or similar effect. A standard crocodile composite mummy without Might of the Gods has the following changes to its statistics:

 (Medium Undead; *AC* 21 (+1 Dex, +10 natural) touch 11, flat-footed 21; *BAB/Grapple* +8/+15; *Attack* Claw +15 melee (1d6+7 plus mummy rot); *Full* *Attack* 2 claws +15 melee (1d6+7 plus mummy rot) and bite +10 melee (1d8+3 plus mummy rot); *Space/Reach* 5ft./5ft.; *Abilities* Str 24, Dex 13, Con —, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 15; *Skills* Swim +?)

 A composite mummy's patron god can suspend its gift whenever it wishes to punish its creature for some misdeed or blasphemy (effects as above). The god can also withdraw the Might of the Gods quality from a composite mummy that has entirely lost its divine favour, which immediately destroys the mummy.​Still, if the rest of you prefer Unholy Power I'm fine with that.

I'll just stat out an alternative version, as usual.


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## Cleon (Oct 9, 2009)

Shade said:


> I'll spot you the Dex if you let me keep the Int.




It's a deal!



Shade said:


> That works for me, but could we stick to just crocs and giant crocs?  I'm not really feeling the water elemental vibe.  Plus, "summon crocodiles" sounds better than "summon crocodiles and water elementals".




Upon reflection, wouldn't fiendish crocodiles and giant crocodiles make more sense?

As for the name, I was going to go for "summon fiends of the waters".

I don't mind it if you cut the water elemental - it'll just be another difference to include in my version.



Shade said:


> If we're worried about the hit points, we can always give 'em unholy toughness as well.




I'm OK on that.

Since I'm starting to think of these as "stand ins for the Demon Gods" I've decided to change my mind and back Mummy Scourge over Mummy Rot.

That reminds me, I forgot to add mention of mummy rot/mummy scourge to the Might of the Gods statblock's attack line.

EDIT: Oh yes, the current conversion has a Will save that's 2 lower than it should be (+10 from HD, +2 from Wis = Will +12, not +10)


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## Cleon (Oct 9, 2009)

Here's another idea, how about giving these composite mummies the ability to shapechange into animal form.

I'm thinking they could turn into a regular looking animal (e.g. a mundane seeming jackal or croc) in order to hide in plain sight while spying on their god's followers and enemies, or become an enormous monstrous animal (e.g. a giant crocodile, dire hippopotamus et cetera) which has greater mobility but weaker offense than their bipedal form.


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## Shade (Oct 9, 2009)

Cleon said:


> Still, if the rest of you prefer Unholy Power I'm fine with that.
> 
> I'll just stat out an alternative version, as usual.




Yeah, I think so.  



Cleon said:


> Upon reflection, wouldn't fiendish crocodiles and giant crocodiles make more sense?




Nope, since not all composite mummies are evil.  I see them more as "calling nearby allied creatures", akin to the sabu lord.



Cleon said:


> As for the name, I was going to go for "summon fiends of the waters".




Not bad, although water elementals aren't evil.  



Cleon said:


> I don't mind it if you cut the water elemental - it'll just be another difference to include in my version.




But of course!



Cleon said:


> Since I'm starting to think of these as "stand ins for the Demon Gods" I've decided to change my mind and back Mummy Scourge over Mummy Rot.




I think the rest of these view them as "favored servants of the Egyptian/Pharoahanic deities", but of course, your version will differ.  

Still, I too prefer the more powerful scourge.



Cleon said:


> Here's another idea, how about giving these composite mummies the ability to shapechange into animal form.
> 
> I'm thinking they could turn into a regular looking animal (e.g. a mundane seeming jackal or croc) in order to hide in plain sight while spying on their god's followers and enemies, or become an enormous monstrous animal (e.g. a giant crocodile, dire hippopotamus et cetera) which has greater mobility but weaker offense than their bipedal form.




I considered that as well, since the similarly-themed Minions of Set have shapechanging into "totem animals".

What do the rest of you think?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 9, 2009)

I like the change shape, but the rest of Cleon's suggestions I think should remain in his own version, especially what with the demon gods and all that.


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## Shade (Oct 9, 2009)

Can we simplify it to just this?

Change Shape (Su): A crocodile composite mummy can assume the shape of a crocodile or giant crocodile as a standard action.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 9, 2009)

I think so.


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## Shade (Oct 9, 2009)

Updated.

Do we want to borrow this from the greater mummy?

Greater mummies receive a +8 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot checks. 

Skills: 5 at 19 ranks
Mummies have Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot
Giant crocs have Hide, Listen, Spot

Feats: 6
Mummies have Alertness, Great Fortitude, Toughness
Giant crocs have Alertness, Endurance, Skill Focus (Hide)


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 10, 2009)

The +8 racial bonuses are pretty ridiculous (I know they're basing it on the vampire, of course, but still). +4, maybe.

Feats: Ability Focus (mummy scourge), Improved Initiative, Great Fortitude, Lightning Reflexes, Multiattack, Weapon Focus (claw).


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## Cleon (Oct 10, 2009)

Shade said:


> Not bad, although water elementals aren't evil.




I'd already considered that point. The SRD says elementals are _usually_ Neutral, so the rules allow for Evil water elementals.



Shade said:


> Can we simplify it to just this?
> 
> Change Shape (Su): A crocodile composite mummy can assume the shape of a crocodile or giant crocodile as a standard action.




That's what I was assuming you'd do. Obviously, my take on it would be *far* more complicated.


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## Cleon (Oct 10, 2009)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Do we want to borrow this from the greater mummy?
> 
> ...




I agree with demiurge that the greater mummy's racial bonuses are excessive, although I would be OK with a +2 or a +4 racial bonus on some or all of those skills.

I was originally just going to give the same racial bonuses as a crocodile - +8 Swim and "*A crocodile gains a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks when in the water. Further, a crocodile can lie in the water with only its eyes and nostrils showing, gaining a +10 cover bonus on Hide checks."

They do have a crocodile's head, so presumably they can hide in the water with just their eyes showing just like a real croc.

Shall we max out Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot and divide the remaining points between Search and Sense Motive?Hide *19*, Listen *19*, Move Silently *19*, Search *10*, Sense Motive *9*, Spot *19*.​Hmm, I think the Search and Sense Motive could do with being a bit higher. I think I'd transfer a few points from Listen, MS and Spot.Hide *19*, Listen *17*, Move Silently *16*, Search *13*, Sense Motive *13*, Spot *17*.​That looks OK to me.

EDIT: Including size and ability adjustments that gives us the following, not including whatever greater mummy racial adds we decide to give it (if any).*Skills:*Hide +16 [_+20 in water, +30 mostly submerged_], Listen +19, Move Silently +17, Search +14, Sense Motive +15, Spot +19​EDITED EDIT: Oh yes, demiurge's proposed feats look fine to me, although I'll probably tweak them slightly for my version.


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## freyar (Oct 12, 2009)

Uh, I think I'm good with everything in the version so far, including suggested feats and skills.


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## Shade (Oct 12, 2009)

Updated.

Organization: Some combination of mummy, crocs, and giant crocs?  Maybe a second grouping with standard mummies?

Challenge Rating: x

Treasure: Standard (like normal mummy) or double standard (to represent gifts and offerings)?

Advancement: 17–24 HD (Large); 25-48 HD (Huge)?

Summon Crocodiles (Sp): Once per day, a crocodile composite mummy can automatically summon *xdx *crocodiles or *xdx *giant crocodiles. This ability is the equivalent of a 5th-level spell.

Crocodile composite mummies stand x feet tall and weigh x pounds.  (9 feet tall and 500 pounds like a devourer?)

Composite mummies speak x.  (x=any languages they knew in life [usually Common]?)


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## freyar (Oct 13, 2009)

Org: Solitary, Nest (1-2 plus 2-4 mummies), or Congregation (1-2 plus 6-10 crocodiles plus 2-4 giant crocodiles plus 2-4 mummies)  (Congregation is a RW group of crocodiles, btw.)

CR 14 or 15?  Can't make up my mind on how it compares to the mummy lord.

Double standard.

Advancement is good.

1d8 crocs or 1d4 giant crocs?

Size and languages sound good.


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## Shade (Oct 13, 2009)

Just advancing a mummy to 16 HD and Large would yield CR 8.

The mohrg is CR 8 at 14 HD.

I figure unholy power and toughness are worth at least a CR or 2.

I'm pegging 'em around CR 10.   I don't think they are quite as dangerous as a devourer or vitreous drinker at CR 11.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 13, 2009)

CR 10 seems fair. If it's the equivalent of a 5th level spell, the mummy should be able to summon 1d3 giant crocodiles or 1d4+1 regular ones. Let's give the regular crocs a bit of a boost, to 1d6+1?


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## Cleon (Oct 13, 2009)

Shade said:


> Updated.




I make its Hide +18 (19 points -4 size +2 racial +1 Dex) not +17, did you forget its +1 Dex bonus?



Shade said:


> Advancement: 17–24 HD (Large); 25-48 HD (Huge)?




That's what I was thinking of too.



Shade said:


> Crocodile composite mummies stand x feet tall and weigh x pounds.  (9 feet tall and 500 pounds like a devourer?)




I imagine them as being relatively squat and burly, with a height similar to an ogre. The SRD mummy is 5-6 feet and weighs 120 pounds, presumably because it's withered and dried out, which I guess means its from half to two-thirds what it weighed in life.

So, how about 10 feet tall and 500 pounds?

(twice 5 feet = 10 feet, eight times 120 pounds = 480 pounds, which would be ~720-960 pounds if they were a fleshed-out living creature, heavier than an average ogre)



Shade said:


> Composite mummies speak x.  (x=any languages they knew in life [usually Common]?)




That makes sense.


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## Shade (Oct 13, 2009)

Updated.

Anything else, or is it hippo time?


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## Cleon (Oct 13, 2009)

freyar said:


> Org: Solitary, Nest (1-2 plus 2-4 mummies), or Congregation (1-2 plus 6-10 crocodiles plus 2-4 giant crocodiles plus 2-4 mummies)  (Congregation is a RW group of crocodiles, btw.)




I would like them to appear in groups with other kinds of Composite Mummy, like they do in the Polyhedron adventure, which has 2 of each kind.



freyar said:


> CR 14 or 15?  Can't make up my mind on how it compares to the mummy lord.




That seems far too high. Not only is the Mummy Lord is arguably too weak for a CR15 it's got 10 levels in a spell casting class.

Eyeballing it, I'd guess CR11 is enough for the Croc Mummy, but I'll go for 10 if the rest of you prefer it.



freyar said:


> Double standard.




Agreed.



freyar said:


> 1d8 crocs or 1d4 giant crocs?






demiurge1138 said:


> CR 10 seems fair. If it's the equivalent of a 5th level spell, the mummy should be able to summon 1d3 giant crocodiles or 1d4+1 regular ones. Let's give the regular crocs a bit of a boost, to 1d6+1?




That looks OK to me. Regular crocs are a lot weaker than giant ones. A _summon nature's ally IV_ can summon 1 giant crocodile or 1d4+1 crocodiles, and bumping the "spell level" up by one should give something like 1d3 & 1d6+1.


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## Shade (Oct 13, 2009)

Cleon said:


> I would like them to appear in groups with other kinds of Composite Mummy, like they do in the Polyhedron adventure, which has 2 of each kind.




Add "or divine council (3d4 composite mummies of various types)" to the Org line?


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## freyar (Oct 14, 2009)

That's all good.


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## Shade (Oct 14, 2009)

Hippo time!

Taweret - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Cleon said:


> *The Hippo-Mummy* could have incredible Strength, Say Str 30 like an elephant, so it has 2 slams doing 1d6+10 as its primary attacks and a 2d6+5 damage bite as a secondary attack. All with added mummy rot, obviously. That way it has 2 slams that each do the same damage as a standard mummy (1d6+10 in 3E, 1-12 in AD&D).






Shade said:


> If we want to get really crazy, we could give the hippo mummy something that ties into Taweret's fertility...like a curse where the victim gives birth to a scorpion swarm.






demiurge1138 said:


> For the hippo mummy, I like the idea of them being twisted fertility things--perhaps they cannot injure a pregnant woman? Perhaps they appear to avenge deeds done against expecting mothers?






Cleon said:


> Unfortunately there aren't many water-based spells or powers in the SRD. We could give them something like control Water, water walk, fog cloud, the ability to summon a hippopotamus, giant crocodile or water elementals (1 Large or 1d4+2 Medium?) or the ability to create a whirlpool like an H20 elemental.


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## Cleon (Oct 14, 2009)

Shade said:


> Add "or divine council (3d4 composite mummies of various types)" to the Org line?




That'll do.

It's Hippo time!


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## Shade (Oct 14, 2009)

Besides increasing the Str to 30, do we want to change any other stats from the croc mummy (Str 27, Dex 13, Con —, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 15)?

I'd like to keep the HD the same for all three.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 15, 2009)

To compensate for the increased Str, lower Dex a bit.


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## Shade (Oct 15, 2009)

Good call, especially since hippopotami have poor Dex.

Added to Homebrews.

Shall we work on the "twisted fertility" power?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 15, 2009)

My twisted fertility suggestion was all flavor-text. They "protect" pregnant women by stalking their rivals and oppressors and killing them, regardless of the actual desires of those protected.


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## Shade (Oct 15, 2009)

Ahh, gotcha.

Any thoughts on this?



			
				Me said:
			
		

> If we want to get really crazy, we could give the hippo mummy something that ties into Taweret's fertility...like a curse where the victim gives birth to a scorpion swarm.


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## freyar (Oct 16, 2009)

Nasty, but I kind of like it.  Something like having a slaad egg implanted.


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## Cleon (Oct 16, 2009)

Shade said:


> Besides increasing the Str to 30, do we want to change any other stats from the croc mummy (Str 27, Dex 13, Con —, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 15)?
> 
> I'd like to keep the HD the same for all three.




I agree with the current homebrew's higher Str, lower Dex but unchanged Hit Dice.

As for 'twisted fertility' my idea was they sometimes swallow folk they've killed and give birth to them as ghastly undead abominations, but that's just me. However I prefer it as just flavour-text.

It would be helpful if we could have some stats for the hippopotamus and dire hippopotamus. What size, NA, bite damage and ability scores do they have?

I'm thinking the Hippo-Mummy could have a capsize special attack like a Dragon Turtle.

EDIT: I'm also feeling we may want to boost the bite attack somehow, maybe higher damage or an augmented critical SA. Hippos have very nasty jaws.


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## Shade (Oct 16, 2009)

*Hippopotamus:* 
Large Animal
Hit Dice: 8d8+40 (76 hp)
Initiative: -1
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), swim 20 ft.
Armor Class: 14 (-1 size, -1 Dex, +6 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+17
Attack: Bite +12 melee (2d6+10)
Full Attack: Bite +12 melee (2d6+10)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: Hold breath, scent
Saves: Fort +11, Ref +5, Will +3
Abilities: Str 24, Dex 9, Con 20, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 3
Skills: Listen +7, Spot +6, Swim +15
Feats: Improved Bull Rush, Improved Overrun, Power Attack
Environment: Warm plains and forests (rivers)
Organization: Solitary, pair, or herd (10-15)
Challenge Rating: 6
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 9-16 HD (Large); 17-24 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: - 

*Dire Hippopotamus*
Huge Animal
Hit Dice: 18d8+126 (207 hp)
Initiative: -2
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), swim 30 ft.
Armor Class: 18 (-2 size, -2 Dex, +12 natural), touch 6, flat-footed 18
Base Attack/Grapple: +13/+33
Attack: Bite +23 melee (2d8+12/19-20)
Full Attack: Bite +23 melee (2d8+12/19-20)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab
Special Qualities: Hold breath, scent
Saves: Fort +18, Ref +9, Will +8
Abilities: Str 34, Dex 6, Con 25, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 8
Skills: Listen +15, Spot +14, Swim +20
Feats: Alertness, Die Hard, Endurance, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (bite), Improved Overrun, Power Attack
Environment: Warm plains and forests (rivers)
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: 14
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 19-26 HD (Huge); 27-54 HD (Gargantuan)
Level Adjustment: -


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 17, 2009)

I like augmented critical and the birthing swarms ideas.


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## freyar (Oct 17, 2009)

Augmented crit is a good idea.


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## Cleon (Oct 17, 2009)

Shade said:


> *Hippopotamus:*
> *SNIP*
> 
> *Dire Hippopotamus*
> *SNIP*




Thanks Shade, very useful. I assume these are the official stats from _Sandstorm_.

Anyhow, those stats tempt me to, at the very least, boost the composite mummy's bite to 2d8/19-20  and give it the Improved Bull Rush and Improved Overrun as bonus feats.


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## freyar (Oct 17, 2009)

I'd be happy to increase the bite damage, but why bonus feats?  They're not bonus for the "natural" hippos, so why not just swap them out for other feats the mummy already has?


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## Cleon (Oct 18, 2009)

freyar said:


> I'd be happy to increase the bite damage, but why bonus feats?  They're not bonus for the "natural" hippos, so why not just swap them out for other feats the mummy already has?




Well, I quite like the current feat selection so I don't really want to cut any, there are 2 feats I would grudgingly give up (Improved Initiative and Great Fortitude), but that's not enough to give the Mummy the Imp. Bull Rush and Overrun feats, since they also need Power Attack as a prereq.


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## freyar (Oct 19, 2009)

I guess I'm not feeling the bonus-ness though.  Why not drop Weapon Focus?  It's useful, but it's kind of a "blah" feat.


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## Shade (Oct 19, 2009)

Let's definitely drop Great Fortitude, since, as indicated in another conversion, it's nigh-useless for undead.   In fact, I'd recommend we go pick a better feat for the croc mummy in it's place.  I wonder why they wasted the regular mummy's feat slot on it.  

I'm fine with ditching Weapon Focus as well.


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## freyar (Oct 19, 2009)

Maybe Weapon Focus or Imp Crit for the bite on the croc mummy.  Something for that big bite!

For our hippo friend, how about the feats Ability Focus (mummy scourge), Lightning Reflexes, Multiattack, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Overrun?


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## Shade (Oct 19, 2009)

Those work for me.  Any objections?


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## Cleon (Oct 19, 2009)

Shade said:


> Those work for me.  Any objections?




No objections.

 I'm doing an alternate take on these Mummies already, with the _righteous might_ type Might of the Gods SQ I described earlier, so I'll just give my version of the Hippo Mummy those feats as boni, and you can give those feats to this version.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 19, 2009)

The hippo feats sound good so far (although we might want to hold a slot open if we give it an ability to create swarms in people for Ability Focus), and I like Imp. Crit (bite) for the crocodile mummy's last feat.


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## Shade (Oct 20, 2009)

Sounds good, and we can shift the Ability Focus from mummy scourge to the "swarm birth" ability if we wish.

Speaking of that, do we want it to work like a slaad's egg, where it injects something first, or more like a curse effect?

There was a corrupt spell in Dragon #300 called searing seed which was a close range effect allowing a Fort save.


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## freyar (Oct 20, 2009)

Both options have some appeal.  But I think it should be gruesome.  I suppose if it's a short-term (curse and a few rounds later birth swarm), then I like the curse option.  But if gestation is going to take a day or two or more, then implantation seems better.


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## Shade (Oct 21, 2009)

I favor the short-term approach.  Disease-causing monsters often seem so anticlimatic otherwise.


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## freyar (Oct 21, 2009)

Then let's go for a curse.  Maybe on a failed save, the victim takes X hp damage per round for 1d4 rounds, then a swarm of something bursts out doing XdX damage and attacking everything?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 22, 2009)

Agreed to curse.The banshrae in MMV has an ability with locust swarms that might be a good place to look for precedent.


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## freyar (Oct 22, 2009)

Can someone with MMV post that ability?


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## Shade (Oct 22, 2009)

Locust Dart (Ex): Once per day, a banshrae can fire a special dart. An opponent struck by this dart is sickened for 1 round and takes 2d6 points of damage as locusts emerge from its body (Fortitude DC 20 negates). The locusts form a swarm that obyes the banshrae's commands for 2d6 rounds before dispersing. The save DC is Constitution-based.

There's also this...

Exude Bloodfiend Swarm (Su): As a standard action, a hullathoin can send forthe a swarm of bloodfiend locusts to attack its foes (see the description of the bloodfiend locust in the Fiend Folio). Swarms of these creatures live in the hullathoin's pus-filled sores. They do not attack the hullathoin or its undead minions.

And this...

Larva Swarm (Ex): As a full-round action, a brood keeper can lift the plates of chitin on its back, releasing a brood keeper larva swarm. The brood keeper larva swarm can act immediately. Until its next action, the brood keeper takes a -5 penalty to Armor Class. Brood keepers are immune to a brood keeper larva swarm's distraction and swarm attacks. A brood keeper can call its larva swarm back as a free action, but it is a full-round action to accept them back into its carapace, during which time the brood keeper takes a -5 penalty to Armor Class. Releasing or accepting its larva swarm provokes attacks of opportunity.

A brood keeper can keep only one brood of larvae in its back. Should the larva swarm be damaged so much that it disperses, a brood keeper gives birth to another batch of larvae in 1 month. If the brood keeper has not done so already, it automatically releases its brood of larvae when it dies.


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## freyar (Oct 23, 2009)

Hmm, lets go with something like this:

Birthing Curse (Su): X times/day, a hippo composite mummy may point to a creature within 30 ft?.  The target must make a DC X Fortitude save or immediately take 1d4? hp damage as a scorpion swarm begins to grow inside him.  The victim takes 1d4 hp damage per round for 1d4 rounds on the composite mummy's initiative, and, on the following round, a scorpion swarm bursts forth, doing 2d6 hp of damage and proceeding to attack all creatures in the area except for composite mummies.


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## Shade (Oct 23, 2009)

That's a good start.  I could see increasing the damage a bit, or even swithing to Con damage.

Shall we limit it to remove curse/break enchantment to stop the "gestation"?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 24, 2009)

Agreed to increased damage (2d6 a round?), remove curse stopping it. How about making the victim sickened each round taking damage, and sickened for a round even if they pass?


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## Cleon (Oct 24, 2009)

Looks OK to me. I am thinking it should only work on living creatures though. Making it Con damage works for me, too.

Say, something like:*Birthing Curse (Su):* X times/day, a hippo composite mummy may point to a living creature within X ft? and impregnate them with a scorpion swarm. If the target fails a DC X Fortitude they take 1d4 Con damage per round for 1d4 rounds on the composite mummy's initiative, as the scorpion swarm hatches and devours their flesh. On the final round the scorpion swarm bursts forth, doing an additional 2d6 hit points of damage to the target, and then proceeds to attack all creatures in the area except for composite mummies.​If we just want it to do plain hp damage, how about:*Birthing Curse (Su):* X times/day, a hippo composite mummy may point to a living creature within X ft? and impregnate them with a scorpion swarm. If the target fails a DC X Fortitude they take 2d6 hit points damage per round for 1d4 rounds on the composite mummy's initiative, as the scorpion swarm hatches and devours their flesh. On the final round the scorpion swarm bursts forth, doing double damage (4d6) to the target, and then proceeds to attack all creatures in the area except for composite mummies.​I agree about it needing remove curse or break enchantment to cure/stop, like Mummy Rot and Mummy Scourge does.

The proposed 30 foot range seems too short to me, I'd prefer 100 feet. The Mummy has 16 HD, and a Close-Range spell from a 16th level caster has a range of 105 feet.

Maybe also increase the caster level check for the remove curse/break enchantment to 25 or 26, since this is the hippopotamus mummy's schtick and it only gets to do it a few times a day?


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## freyar (Oct 25, 2009)

Just thinking, should the victim only get the one save or a save each round to negate the damage?

We could do 60 ft or maybe 100 ft range, and we can certainly negotiate over the X/day. 

Agreed to remove curse/break enchantment, unsure about CL required.

I could do Con damage and potentially sickened.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 25, 2009)

Only one save, 100 feet, once per day, remove curse/break enchantment.


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## Cleon (Oct 27, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Only one save, 100 feet, once per day, remove curse/break enchantment.




OK by me.


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## Shade (Oct 27, 2009)

Updated.

Skills: 5 at 19 ranks

Organization: Solitary, x (1-2 plus 2-4 mummies), herd (1-2 plus x-x hippopotami plus 2-4 mummies), or divine council (3d4 composite mummies of various types)

Hippopotamus composite mummies stand x feet tall and weigh x pounds.


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## freyar (Oct 27, 2009)

Balance, Climb, Listen, Spot, Swim?

Different web sites give possible names for groups of hippos, including pod and bloat.  For the 1-2 plus 2-4 mummies, I think I prefer pod.  Bloat is awfully good, but it would probably work better in place of herd with the actual hippos.  Speaking of, 2d6 hippos in the herd?

Let's make them a little bigger than the crocs.  11 ft and 800 lb?


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## Cleon (Oct 27, 2009)

freyar said:


> Balance, Climb, Listen, Spot, Swim?




Well, with its Strength and racial bonus it doesn't really need any ranks in Swim.

Balance & Climb don't feel right for a hippopotamus. I would prefer Hide (for lurking in the water), Listen & Spot and maybe some social skill to interact with temple visitors and detect imposters (Diplomacy?, Sense Motive?) and maybe some ranks in Survival to help track down idolators. 



freyar said:


> Let's make them a little bigger than the crocs.  11 ft and 800 lb?




I was thinking about the same height or a little shorter, but stockier and heavier than the other composite mummies.


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## Shade (Oct 27, 2009)

I love the org name "bloat".  

I concur with Balance and Climb seeming out of place.  Let's also skip Survival, since it doesn't have the Track feat and has no other application for the skill.

How about Hide, Knowledge (religion), Listen, Sense Motive, Spot?

9 ft and 800 lb?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 28, 2009)

Those skills and dimensions sound right.


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## Shade (Oct 28, 2009)

Updated.

Did we ever figure out the "x" in the ability below?

Summon Crocodiles (Sp): Once per day, a hippopotamus composite mummy can automatically summon x hippopotami. This ability is the equivalent of a 5th-level spell.

Did we want to reassign Ability Focus to birthing curse rather than mummy scourge, as discussed upthread?

Anything else?


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## Cleon (Oct 28, 2009)

Shade said:


> I love the org name "bloat".
> 
> I concur with Balance and Climb seeming out of place.  Let's also skip Survival, since it doesn't have the Track feat and has no other application for the skill.
> 
> ...




That all looks fine to me except for Knowledge (religion), since (a) why doesn't the Croc have it? and (b) if any of the composite mummies get that skill, I'd prefer it to be the Jackal-headed one.


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## Shade (Oct 28, 2009)

The croc probably should, but we didn't give it to it.

That said, I'm fine with replacing it here, or revising the croc again.


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## freyar (Oct 29, 2009)

Let's give it to the croc, too.

Everything looks ok for the hippo as far as I'm concerned.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 29, 2009)

Considering that there are no hippos in the MM, where would these stats come from for the summonned ones?


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## freyar (Oct 29, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Considering that there are no hippos in the MM, where would these stats come from for the summonned ones?



You would have to find the fly in the ointment, wouldn't you?

I know, let's convert one!


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## Shade (Oct 29, 2009)

Good point.   Here are the Sandstorm stats...

Large Animal
Hit Dice: 8d8+40 (76 hp)
Initiative: -1
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), swim 20 ft.
Armor Class: 14 (-1 size, -1 Dex, +6 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+17
Attack: Bite +12 melee (2d6+10)
Full Attack: Bite +12 melee (2d6+10)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: Hold breath, scent
Saves: Fort +11, Ref +5, Will +3
Abilities: Str 24, Dex 9, Con 20, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 3
Skills: Listen +7, Spot +6, Swim +15
Feats: Improved Bull Rush, Improved Overrun, Power Attack
Environment: Warm plains and forests (rivers)
Organization: Solitary, pair, or herd (10-15)
Challenge Rating: 6
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 9-16 HD (Large); 17-24 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: -

Now compare to the SRD rhino...
Large Animal
Hit Dice: 8d8+40 (76 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 16 (–1 size, +7 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 16
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+18
Attack: Gore +13 melee (2d6+12)
Full Attack: Gore +13 melee (2d6+12)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Powerful charge
Special Qualities: Low-light vision
Saves: Fort +11, Ref +6, Will +3
Abilities: Str 26, Dex 10, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 2
Skills: Listen +14, Spot +3
Feats: Alertness, Endurance, Improved Natural Attack (gore)
Environment: Warm plains
Organization: Solitary or herd (2–12)
Challenge Rating: 4
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 9–12 HD (Large); 13–24 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: --

We could probably get by with saying "use rhino stats, but reduce land peed to 20 ft., give it a swim speed of 20 ft., replace gore with bite, and replace powerful charge with the hold breath ability of a crocodile".  If we want to take it a step further, we could add "change feats to Alertness, Improved Bull Rush, and Power Attack".


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## GrayLinnorm (Oct 29, 2009)

Is it worth noting that hippopotami are also in Tome of Horrors?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 30, 2009)

That is worth noting, but problematic in its own way. They're OGL compatible, but the book's difficult to get ahold of.


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## Shade (Oct 30, 2009)

So something like this?

Summon Hippopotami (Sp): Once per day, a hippopotamus composite mummy can automatically summon 1d4+1 hippopotami*. This ability is the equivalent of a 7th-level spell.

If you have access to _Sandstorm_ or the _Tome of Horrors_, use the hippopotamus statistics found within those books.  If not, use rhinoceros statistics, but reduce land speed to 20 ft., add a swim speed of 20 ft., replace gore with bite, and replace powerful charge with the hold breath ability of a crocodile.  Change feats to Alertness, Improved Bull Rush, and Power Attack.


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## Cleon (Oct 30, 2009)

freyar said:


> You would have to find the fly in the ointment, wouldn't you?
> 
> I know, let's convert one!




There are stats for hippopotamus and dire hippopotamus in Sandstorm, as Shade kindly posted *back on page 48 of this thread*.

EDIT: Never mind, I see I've been beaten to it.

The Rhinoceros solution seems perfectly workable to me.

Although I would have no objection to a new conversion of a hippopotamus, indeed I've already done one. The sandstorm version has a few things I don't like, the worst being the 20 ft. land speed - in reality Hippos can run _faster_ than humans over short distances.


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## freyar (Oct 31, 2009)

I like Shade's underbar.  And I don't think ToH is so hard to get, as the 3.0 and 3.5 versions are available as PDFs through the ENWorld store. (And ToH II and III.)


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## Shade (Nov 2, 2009)

Updated.

Anything left, or are we ready for the jackals?


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## freyar (Nov 2, 2009)

Bring on the jackals!


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## Shade (Nov 3, 2009)

Here's what we discussed upthread (besides deciding to make all three equal in size and HD)...



Cleon said:


> *The Jackal-Mummy* has the lowest damage so let's say it's only as strong as a regular Mummy and is only Medium sized. It is armed with an ankh, I guess we could treat that as a battle axe (1d8+7 damage) plus a bite for, say, 1d8+3 damage? It needs something to bring it up to par with the other two mummies - some kind of magical powers? We could make it faster (or give it a normal Mummy's speed and say one of its abilities is an _expeditious retreat_ SLA).






Shade said:


> For the jackal mummy, we might appropriate and alter the following jackal lord ability...
> 
> Curse of the Jackal (Su): Once per day, a jackal lord can make a gaze attack against a single opponent within 30 feet. If the target fails a Will save (DC 20), it is transformed into a jackal (use the statistics for the dog in the Monster Manual). The effect is as baleful polymorph, but with a permanent duration. A jackal lord can reverse this effect by gazing upon an individual that was cursed by itself or by some other jackal lord, but doing so counts as its use of the ability for that day. Otherwise, only a limited wish, miracle, or wish can restore the victim.
> 
> Since Anubis is the god associated with mummification and the afterlife, perhaps the jackal headed mummy should be the toughest of the bunch?






demiurge1138 said:


> The jackal mummy should be LN, more associated with guarding and protecting the dead rather than just killing people.






Cleon said:


> That looks good to me. I was also thinking of clerical powers for the Jackal Mummy, maybe including rebuke undead. Perhaps a spell-like ability to create Undead from the tomb-robbers it has dealt with, turning them into zombies, wights or actual mummies?
> 
> I'd rather keep them all Evil like the originals. The Jackal Mummy doesn't have to be a _nice_ guardian of the dead.






freyar said:


> Regarding alignment: if we're going to associate them explicitly with the Egyptian gods, let's make the jackals LN.  Otherwise, keep them LE.






Cleon said:


> Rather than having them explicitly Egyptian, I'd rather make them pseudo-Egyptian to honour D&D's grand olde tradition of sinister lost ancient desert civilizations that just coincidentally are crammed with pyramids, mummies, sphinxes and animal-headed deities.
> 
> So put me down for Lawful Evil jackal mummies.






Shade said:


> Let's go "lawful" with the jackal-heads, and come up with both neutral and evil variations.
> 
> Set is often depicted (at least in D&D) as jackal-headed, so that supports the evil aspect.






freyar said:


> That seems eminently reasonable.


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## freyar (Nov 5, 2009)

Ok, so we're going to go with slightly weaker in melee but the jackal curse, rebuke/command undead, and maybe a couple more potent Su/Sp abilities to make up for it?  For the alignment, just say LN/LE or actually do two versions?


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## Leopold (Nov 5, 2009)

LN, not all undead have to be evil and these don't seem to fit the wicked type unless you want to reach back to egyptian lore and play this guy off the god Anubus.


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## freyar (Nov 5, 2009)

I think that, after some discussion, we finally decided upthread to go with both LN and LE options.  The remaining question is whether just to day Lawful (Neutral or Evil) or actually have two different critters.


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 6, 2009)

I think the same stat block can fit the two alignments.


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## Cleon (Nov 6, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> I think the same stat block can fit the two alignments.




Well I think we should have two variants, a LN Jackal-headed and a LE one with the head of a  Typhonic Beast, but use the same stats with a couple of SA/SQ alterations to align them with positive/negative energy or evil/law.

I.e. the Typhonic version has rebuke undead, the Jackal version has turn undead, and some of its SLA abilities are different. (e.g. _protection from good_ for the Set-Mummy, _protection from chaos_ for the Anubis-Mummy, _dictum_ or _order's wrath_ for the Anubis-Mummy, _unholy blight_ or _blasphemy _for the Set-Mummy).


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## freyar (Nov 7, 2009)

Cleon said:


> Well I think we should have two variants, a LN Jackal-headed and a LE one with the head of a  Typhonic Beast, but use the same stats with a couple of SA/SQ alterations to align them with positive/negative energy or evil/law.
> 
> I.e. the Typhonic version has rebuke undead, the Jackal version has turn undead, and some of its SLA abilities are different. (e.g. _protection from good_ for the Set-Mummy, _protection from chaos_ for the Anubis-Mummy, _dictum_ or _order's wrath_ for the Anubis-Mummy, _unholy blight_ or _blasphemy _for the Set-Mummy).



I don't think the LN one needs to turn undead, since neutral gets to choose (think Wee Jas).  Maybe we could do the substitute SLAs as an underbar?


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## Shade (Nov 9, 2009)

Neat idea for the typhonic beast-head.  

In that case, shall we simply refer to them as the jackal composite mummy (LN) and typhonic beast composite mummy (LE)?


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## freyar (Nov 9, 2009)

2 different monsters, then?  Ok with me, more conversion fun!


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## Cleon (Nov 10, 2009)

freyar said:


> 2 different monsters, then?  Ok with me, more conversion fun!




Suits me.

Shouldn't we close down this thread and start part N+1?

I suspect it will take a couple of pages to complete the Jackal Mummy.


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## Shade (Nov 10, 2009)

Thread closed due to exceeding 1,000 posts.

See continuation here.


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