# George RR Martin to his detractors



## Krug (Feb 25, 2009)

Not A Blog - To My Detractors


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## Mark (Feb 25, 2009)

Well played. 






Spoiler



Old School "Rick"rolling


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## Crothian (Feb 25, 2009)

I really wish he'd write that book instead of bitching about his fans yet again.  He has more excuses then a 6 year old.


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## Krug (Feb 25, 2009)

Well most fans support him doing whatever he wants:
Not A Blog - Thanks

Seriously, there's so much fantasy out there. Folks need to get over it.


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## Crothian (Feb 25, 2009)

I really wish he'd write that book instead of thanking his fans yet again. He has more excuses then a 6 year old.


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## LightPhoenix (Feb 25, 2009)

I've always thought that there's a lot of undue vitriol being spewed his way by fans.  I'm sure most of them would flip if you told them they had to stop having hobbies and go work sixteen hours a day.  Heck, most people get grumpy if they have to work ten!  The bottom line is that GRRM doesn't have an obligation to his fans to work 24/7 simply to appease their desires.  The fans did not make his career - he did that by writing (some) good books.

However, that said, as time has passed I've fallen into the camp that thinks GRRM simply isn't interested in _Ice and Fire_ anymore.  This post seems to me to back up that line of thought.  

Regardless of if this is the case, he needs to stop whining and accept the consequences of the bed he made.  Boo hoo, you became famous... suck it up.  It's been four years and four months since the last book came out.  If you want your fans to stop bitching, finish the book or tell them it's not being worked on.


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## Felon (Feb 25, 2009)

Krug said:


> Seriously, there's so much fantasy out there. Folks need to get over it.



I think it's an issue of quality, not quantity. 

Then again, I would never have gotten through even the first book without the help of audio tapes. Entertaining to be sure, but the insane popularity is overrated IMO. 

So, George, futz around and pull a Douglas Adams on us. We've made you wealthy enough never to have to type another line again, but you never signed a contract obligating you to actually finish your work. As always, a sense of entitlement is a dangerous delusion.


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## Merlin's Shadow (Feb 25, 2009)

Wouldn't it be better for him to ignore the angry lunkheads (who are surely a minority) that rant about his writing pace instead of just giving them one more thing to b*tch about?


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## Man in the Funny Hat (Feb 25, 2009)

Merlin's Shadow said:


> Wouldn't it be better for him to ignore the angry lunkheads (who are surely a minority) that rant about his writing pace instead of just giving them one more thing to b*tch about?



So he's not even allowed to b**ch himself when he's annoyed?  Where's the fun in that?


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## Remus Lupin (Feb 25, 2009)

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Writing is hard.

And from what I can tell, G.R.R.M. is actually working very hard at a number of projects, including ADWD, but to do it right takes a long time.

It took Stephen King a long time between "Wizard and Glass" and "Wolves of the Calla," a lot longer than it's taken Martin so far. I'm eager to read the book, but I can wait a while longer.


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## hexgrid (Feb 25, 2009)

GRRM said:
			
		

> After all, as some of you like to point out in your emails, I am sixty years old and fat, and you don't want me to "pull a Robert Jordan" on you and deny you your book.




Ouch! I can't believe someone would email this to him.

But I guess I shouldn't be surprised.


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## Fast Learner (Feb 25, 2009)

I say this as an ensconced member, but as a rule the social skills of genre fans tend to be somewhat limited. Add to that the anonimity of the internet and I wouldn't be even slightly surprised if he's received multiple emails of that type.


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## Arnwyn (Feb 25, 2009)

While I know of GRRM, I'm not familiar with _Ice and Fire_.

Is it a bunch of stand alone self-contained books, or is there an ongoing story that - and this is the important part - has yet to be completed?

If it's the former, then fans should obviously get off his back. If it's the latter, then the fans'/consumers' position is somewhat obvious and unsurprising (if rude)...


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## rowport (Feb 25, 2009)

*Shrug*

Apparently, I am in a tiny minority of GRRM fans: I thought the Fire & Ice series was boring as paint drying (at least the first two that I endured) but then I *love* the Wild Cards books, even the two released in the last few years.  Who knew?  Shrug.


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## Dire Bare (Feb 26, 2009)

LightPhoenix said:


> However, that said, as time has passed I've fallen into the camp that thinks GRRM simply isn't interested in _Ice and Fire_ anymore.  This post seems to me to back up that line of thought.




The impression that I get is not that he isn't interested anymore, but rather two things, 1) that he has a lot on his plate, especially with the resurgence in popularity of the Wild Cards series, and 2) that he is a bit _stuck_ on finishing the latest Ice and Fire book.

I sympathize with the guy, to him, his artistry is larger than Ice and Fire and includes many projects that are equally important and valid to him.  And it sucks to have losers who don't know what they are talking about slam you personally for not doing things the way they _know_ they should be done.  After I read his blog entry, I gave my own one-fingered salute to all of those hassling the poor guy.


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## Vocenoctum (Feb 26, 2009)

Arnwyn said:


> While I know of GRRM, I'm not familiar with _Ice and Fire_.
> 
> Is it a bunch of stand alone self-contained books, or is there an ongoing story that - and this is the important part - has yet to be completed?
> 
> If it's the former, then fans should obviously get off his back. If it's the latter, then the fans'/consumers' position is somewhat obvious and unsurprising (if rude)...




I read the first trilogy, it was decent, but by the end of the trilogy I felt I was done with it, and when it eventually came out with book 4, I felt no draw.

It was a 7 book series, IIRC, two trilogies with a link in the middle, but now it's changed as book 4 became books 4 and 5, and something blah blah, I forget. So yeah, it's a continuing saga whose ending is "eagerly" anticipated, but may never occur.


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## Felon (Feb 26, 2009)

Dire Bare said:


> I sympathize with the guy, to him, his artistry is larger than Ice and Fire and includes many projects that are equally important and valid to him.  And it sucks to have losers who don't know what they are talking about slam you personally for not doing things the way they _know_ they should be done.  After I read his blog entry, I gave my own one-fingered salute to all of those hassling the poor guy.



Your position is the other extreme. Martin isn't "poor" by any means. He's experienced success at a level most writers will only dream of. Any hassles he gets from fans disappointed fans--the "losers" who provided him with financial security--is more than compensated for by the perks of being a bestselling author and having actualized his personal dreams. Quantitatively speaking, celebrities are amongst the least deserving of pity.


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## Glyfair (Feb 26, 2009)

Vocenoctum said:


> It was a 7 book series, IIRC, two trilogies with a link in the middle, but now it's changed as book 4 became books 4 and 5, and something blah blah, I forget. So yeah, it's a continuing saga whose ending is "eagerly" anticipated, but may never occur.



I believe it was supposed to be a 5 book series (it might have been a trilogy very early on).  The last book and the "forthcoming" book (the book he can't really seem to finish) are covering a time frame that he was originally going to skip.  There was going to be a large time jump in between books, and he decided he needed to cover that timeframe in a single book.

As it turns out, he has had a very hard time writing it.  Supposedly it was almost done, but too large.  Thus he split it into two books, with each one covering different points of view*.  Apparently this was wrong, since the "almost finished" other half has taken quite a long time.

Personally, I wish he had stuck to the original time jump, rather than write these books that obviously aren't working very well.  

Now, I like the Wild Cards series.  I liked it when it was one of the early shared worlds (and one based loosely on an RPG campaign).  Still, I boycotting anything he writes until he gets that book out.  He can do whatever he wants, including dropping the series.  I hope his various projects do well.  I still want him to sit down and finish this book and get back to the real story.

*  Each chapter is told from the point of view of various characters in the story.


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## Remus Lupin (Feb 26, 2009)

"Wild Cards" is very well-written and compelling, but I have a hard time getting my suspension of belief up for it. It's difficult for me to accept the premise on the one hand, and some of the powers that the characters exhibit are grotesque to the point of turning me off reading. The power of the plot and writing keeps me going, but I'm mostly reading it to get my Martin fix while waiting for DwD.


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## Vocenoctum (Feb 26, 2009)

Glyfair said:


> I believe it was supposed to be a 5 book series (it might have been a trilogy very early on).  The last book and the "forthcoming" book (the book he can't really seem to finish) are covering a time frame that he was originally going to skip.  There was going to be a large time jump in between books, and he decided he needed to cover that timeframe in a single book.




Maybe that was it, two trilogies, then he decided on a bridge book, then split the bridge. I'm also pretty sure he said when he split it that the second half would be really quickly since it was so done...

But, yeah, I don't recall specifically given that my information is mostly from a friend that was following it. I think he's lost interest now though. (Or his "lack of interest" is due more to a lack of information. Other than this "screw you detractors, thank you fans" stuff, has any word on the book been forthcoming since the release of book4?)


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## Mark (Feb 26, 2009)

hexgrid said:


> Ouch! I can't believe someone would email this to him.
> 
> But I guess I shouldn't be surprised.






GRRM is his 151.


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## Dire Bare (Feb 26, 2009)

Felon said:


> Your position is the other extreme. Martin isn't "poor" by any means. He's experienced success at a level most writers will only dream of. Any hassles he gets from fans disappointed fans--the "losers" who provided him with financial security--is more than compensated for by the perks of being a bestselling author and having actualized his personal dreams. Quantitatively speaking, celebrities are amongst the least deserving of pity.




Buh?  I think it was pretty clear I didn't mean "poor" from a financial perspective.  I agree that Martin is a talented and successful writer who probably makes pretty good money (although, probably not as much as you might think).

I don't care if the guy sleeps on a solid gold mattress or a piece of cardboard under a bridge . . . . he's an artist, not a machine whose purpose is to crank out fiction upon demand.  He's also human, and doesn't deserve that level of hassle.

Does it go with the territory?  Cranky fans filled with nerdrage harrassing an author who doesn't dance to their every whim?  Maybe.  Probably.  Doesn't make it right.

Can he handle it?  Well, obviously it bothered him enough to vent on his _personal_ blog (or, not-a-blog).  But I imagine overall he'll do just fine.

So?  Doesn't change the fact (well, fact IMO) that his detractors are out of line and most definitely "losers" (again, IMO, of course).

I don't buy the crap that celebrities don't deserve pity.  Because Tom Cruise is rich and successful beyond imagining gives the paparazzi (and the overly curious public they serve) the "okay" to follow every detail of his personal life, and that of his wife and child?  Does John Travolta deserve little to no pity over the death of his son, and the relentless media coverage of the tragedy?  Does Anna Nichole Smith deserve no pity for the tragic mess her life became, ending with the death of her son and then her own too-soon-demise?

Or, to bring it back down to a scale similar to GRRM's issues with detractors, does George Lucas deserve all the ire from fanboys over his decision to take the Star Wars franchise in a direction different from what many of us would have preferred (i.e. more kid-friendly, kid-focused)?  (heh, I'm sure to catch some hell myself for a defense of Lucas!)

All I can say to that attitude is, "Whatever, dude."


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## Merkuri (Feb 27, 2009)

Arnwyn said:


> While I know of GRRM, I'm not familiar with _Ice and Fire_.
> 
> Is it a bunch of stand alone self-contained books, or is there an ongoing story that - and this is the important part - has yet to be completed?




As others have said, it's an ongoing story.  What's more, the previous book was only _half _of a book.  What he's writing now is the second half.  It was split in half by character/location, so each book will cover the same time frame, but deals with characters in different locales.  I was really disappointed when I got to the end of book four only to discover that only one of my favorite characters had been in it and that I had to wait for the next book to discover what happened to them during the same time period.  

I wouldn't say that book four was bad, but I kept hoping that the next chapter would show what Denerys or Jon or Tyrian were up to and then finally I got that note at the end that basically said, "Fooled you!  This isn't the whole book!"  

I'm distanced from it now, since I finished reading it a year or so ago, but at the time I was absolutely dying for the next book.  I could imagine that some less mature fans would make death threats after finding out they had to wait to find out what happened to their favorite characters, having heard _nothing _ except tiny hints about them in the entire (long) forth book. 

Whether splitting the book like that was a bad decision or not remains to be seen.  I'm holding my judgment until I get the fifth book on my iPod.


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## Simplicity (Feb 28, 2009)

Personally, I think he should finish the darn book already.
Book 1: 1996.
Book 2: 1998.
Book 3: 2000.
Book 4: 2005.  
Book 5: 2009?

4-5 years between books is too much to expect your fans to wait and still expect them to be your fans...


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## Krug (Feb 28, 2009)

Simplicity said:


> Personally, I think he should finish the darn book already.
> Book 1: 1996.
> Book 2: 1998.
> Book 3: 2000.
> ...




I'm fine with it.


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## AdmundfortGeographer (Feb 28, 2009)

Krug said:


> I'm fine with it.



I've moved on.

I hold no grudges against the man, but I no longer care about the series. I hope he takes care of himself, does what he likes, and lives a good life. But I'm bored with waiting and I've lost interest. I'll touch the books again when the series is finished.


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## Hammerhead (Feb 28, 2009)

Dire Bare said:


> I don't care if the guy sleeps on a solid gold mattress or a piece of cardboard under a bridge . . . . he's an artist, not a machine whose purpose is to crank out fiction upon demand.  He's also human, and doesn't deserve that level of hassle.




A machine to crank out fiction upon demand? He's a writer. It's his job. If for some reason I stop doing my job, I expect those to whom I had made a commitment to be rather upset (and probably demand some kind of compensation). By starting a fantasy series, Martin has a commitment to his fans, especially the ones who evidently like his books* enough to hang out on his message boards (and presumably evangelize his books to others) to end it in a timely and quality manner. 

*Quick Note: I don't like Martin's books, and I don't understand why so many people do. So I don't have a whole lot of personal investment in whether or not Song of Ice and Fire gets finished; I just think people should do their jobs.


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## Mouseferatu (Feb 28, 2009)

That _might_ mean people have the right to be upset. It does _not_ mean people have the right to be screamingly rude or treat him like crap.


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## Krug (Feb 28, 2009)

Hammerhead said:


> A machine to crank out fiction upon demand? He's a writer. It's his job. If for some reason I stop doing my job, I expect those to whom I had made a commitment to be rather upset (and probably demand some kind of compensation). By starting a fantasy series, Martin has a commitment to his fans, especially the ones who evidently like his books* enough to hang out on his message boards (and presumably evangelize his books to others) to end it in a timely and quality manner.
> 
> *Quick Note: I don't like Martin's books, and I don't understand why so many people do. So I don't have a whole lot of personal investment in whether or not Song of Ice and Fire gets finished; I just think people should do their jobs.




His job is to write, and he is writing, such as books in the Wildcard Universe. So it's not *A Song of Ice and Fire* that's coming out, but he is working on it. Doesn't he own the readers of his other works, some of who might not like ASoIaF, as well?


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## Remus Lupin (Feb 28, 2009)

Again: Writing. Is. Hard.

Seriously, how many novels have his detractors written? Sure, there are lots of folks who churn out dreck for a living, in large part because they're done on a work for hire basis.

I hope we have higher expectations of this series. It's not R. A. Salvatore after all.


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## Crothian (Feb 28, 2009)

Remus Lupin said:


> Seriously, how many novels have his detractors written?




Why does that matter?  Just because other people don't do what he does does not mean they can't complain about it or be disappointed in him.  

Many writers have long periods between books but Martin more then others I've noticed has a lot of excuses.  Maybe it is because he's trying to be more communicative with his fans and that's just not working for him.  I don't know.  What I do know is that for some reason he seem to be the only writer who gets threads like this of people complaining about him.


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## Remus Lupin (Feb 28, 2009)

Well it matters to me because I don't think a lot of them understand that writing well is a very difficult task. Writing poorly is rather easier. Martin's problem is that he has a blog where he talks about his life, and then people judge him for watching football instead of working.

Not that anyone's really waiting for a book from me, but if I wrote on my blog that I was playing with my kids or watching TV, it would probably annoy me if I then got a bunch of emails excoriating me for not spending every waking minute on my ever-forthcoming book.

And again, it's not like he's doing nothing. Two new "Wildcards" books have come out in the past two years.

I'm as impatient as anyone for the next book. But I'm not about to write the man nasty emails.


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## Fast Learner (Feb 28, 2009)

I certainly don't mind. As long as the quality is maintained, I'll be perfectly happy to read a new one every 5 years or so.


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## AdmundfortGeographer (Feb 28, 2009)

Remus Lupin said:


> Martin's problem is that he has a blog where he talks about his life, and then people judge him for watching football instead of working.



No, to me the problem is that he once had been productive. Putting out three books in the series in four years. Then one more in nine years since and leaving folks hanging that more is coming. I think that If he had left it ambiguous that more was on its way, people not would be hanging on every thing he did, analyzing his moves, to see how far along the next book was.


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## Krug (Feb 28, 2009)

Eric Anondson said:


> No, to me the problem is that he once had been productive. Putting out three books in the series in four years. Then one more in nine years since and leaving folks hanging that more is coming. I think that If he had left it ambiguous that more was on its way, people not would be hanging on every thing he did, analyzing his moves, to see how far along the next book was.




It's only been a small percentage that's been impatient. Seriously I don't think 98% of readers care that much.


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## Felon (Feb 28, 2009)

Dire Bare said:


> Buh?  I think it was pretty clear I didn't mean "poor" from a financial perspective.  I agree that Martin is a talented and successful writer who probably makes pretty good money (although, probably not as much as you might think).
> 
> I don't care if the guy sleeps on a solid gold mattress or a piece of cardboard under a bridge . . . .



OK, let's hold it right there a tick. The distinction between a wealthy person with problems and a homeless person with problems is not small. To equate nasty emails as meriting as much sympathy as hypothermia and malnutrition is irrational. You should care.



> So? Doesn't change the fact (well, fact IMO) that his detractors are out of line and most definitely "losers" (again, IMO, of course).
> 
> I don't buy the crap that celebrities don't deserve pity.  Because Tom Cruise is rich and successful beyond imagining gives the paparazzi (and the overly curious public they serve) the "okay" to follow every detail of his personal life, and that of his wife and child?  Does John Travolta deserve little to no pity over the death of his son, and the relentless media coverage of the tragedy?  Does Anna Nichole Smith deserve no pity for the tragic mess her life became, ending with the death of her son and then her own too-soon-demise?
> 
> ...



It is hard not to note that your own posts are full of inflammatory words and unilateral hostility, evoking the same qualities of "nerdrage" you condemn.

The logic behind why celebrities aren't truly victims is inescapable: they are in a hell of their own choosing. You want fame-based success, you know what the price of admission is well beforehand. Meanwhile, there are millions of other folks who are genuine victims of circumstance, with real problems like disease and poverty and mass slaughter--stuff that paparazzi and  "nerdrage" don't hold a candle to. Guess there's not much satisfaction in sticking up for a bunch of stinking nobodies.

Whether or not someone has a big pile of money to sleep on is not a minor, easily-disregarded factor. So, again, in that big line of folks entitled to pity, Martin can wait near the rear, though he does warrant a spot in front of the highly pity-undeserving Cruise (self-important nutjob who fancies himself a guru), Anna Nicole (gold-digger with a lethal case of gluttony), and Lucas (who went "kid-friendly" not because he's a Willy-Wonkaesque nice old chap who wants to make all the little children happy, but because he's a greedy, greedy sod who sold out his opus to pimp Happy Meals and Legos). But in front of Martin, there are millions of folks really hurting.


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## AdmundfortGeographer (Feb 28, 2009)

Krug said:


> It's only been a small percentage that's been impatient.



I disagree that those who are impatient is small, much less 2% of his fans. It may be a vocal 2% who are all nerdrage over it though. Nerdragers and the generally impatient aren't the same thing though there is overlap.


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## drothgery (Mar 1, 2009)

I decided after reading book 2 of _A Song of Ice and Fire_ that Martin wasn't for me. In retrospect, I'm thinking this was a very wise decision.


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## James Heard (Mar 1, 2009)

Meh. George wrote Sandkings. After that he doesn't need to make apologies to anyone for anything.


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## Simplicity (Mar 10, 2009)

James Heard said:


> Meh. George wrote Sandkings. After that he doesn't need to make apologies to anyone for anything.




You're right.  He just has to be eaten alive by the throngs of insects who used to worship him as a god.


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## Blastin (Mar 10, 2009)

Heh....I got his anthologies on audiobook. Collections of his shortstories and novellas across the years with these great commentaries he recorded himself in between.
  Most of the stories were pretty damn good, but one thing that came up again and again in his comments between the stories was his writers ADD. He must have mentioned "I wrote this story with the intent of writing a bunch more with the same characters, but then never did" about ten times. He got distracted by new projects constantly and seemed to only stick with one thing for more than one story when he was VERY passionate about it, he REALLY needed the money, or was very pressured by a publisher.
 I worry that he looks at continuing this series as work now and not enjoyment. I hope his involvement with the proposed HBO series renews his interests. While I would be dissapointed if he never finsihed the series, my life would go on....


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## Blastin (Mar 10, 2009)

double post


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## Banshee16 (Mar 11, 2009)

Felon said:


> The logic behind why celebrities aren't truly victims is inescapable: they are in a hell of their own choosing. You want fame-based success, you know what the price of admission is well beforehand. Meanwhile, there are millions of other folks who are genuine victims of circumstance, with real problems like disease and poverty and mass slaughter--stuff that paparazzi and  "nerdrage" don't hold a candle to. Guess there's not much satisfaction in sticking up for a bunch of stinking nobodies.




While celebrities do live somewhat in a hell of their choosing, I don't think that their fame removes their right to a private life.  Personally, when I hear about a celebrity punching out a papparazzi, I find it funny.  "Stick that camera in my face one more time, and I'll put it where the sun don't shine".

They're people, same as any of us, and frankly, if any of us were being followed around by 300 photographers who were picking apart every step we took, and photographing it, I'm willing to bet many of us would feel an awful temptation to go medieval on them.

On the topic of George R.R. Martin, I'm sure a little of his motivation is gone....he's likely made decent money off the books, and doesn't need the next book as much.  Or, maybe, he's legitimately trying to finish it, and it's simply that, when he added this extra middle sequence to the series, he messed up his plotting, and he's really just finding that opening Pandora's Box, with this extra novel (two novels) has resulted in the creation of a bunch of loose ends he needs to tie up, so he can take us into the second half of the series.

At least, I hope that's what's going on.

At this point, it's been so long since the last book that I'm beginning to forget what was occurring.

I have no idea how he's going to have HBO do a series, given he hasn't finished writing the books yet.  Unless he picks up the pace for the final few books, it'll likely be HBO writers making things up as they go along, or writing scripts based on rough outlines..

He's got the right not to do another novel in the series.....it would just suck, however, because they are soooooo good.

At least there's time to try other authors as a result.

Banshee


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## Vocenoctum (Mar 12, 2009)

Banshee16 said:


> While celebrities do live somewhat in a hell of their choosing, I don't think that their fame removes their right to a private life.  Personally, when I hear about a celebrity punching out a papparazzi, I find it funny.  "Stick that camera in my face one more time, and I'll put it where the sun don't shine".




While I do agree with you, for the most part this isn't folks stalking him. I mean, he's announcing his private life, and complaining when folks waiting for closure ask "what about us?". Are some of them out of line? certainly so, but that doesn't mean there's no reason folks have become impatient.

Also, I think what a lot of these type of threads overestimate is how unimportant these internet comments are, really.

A: "The book is still not ready"
B: "man, get off your ass and do it already!"
C:"you need to back off, its his right to move at his own pace"
B then follows with a treatise on the responsibilities of an author to provide that which was promised.

That doesn't mean B is hawking the internet every night, fuming over his keyboard. It just means when he sees a post about it, he vents a bit and moves on.


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## Zaukrie (Mar 12, 2009)

I always love it when athletes (or in this case authors) get annoyed with the passion of their fans. Without that passion, they'd not be rich in the first place. If you want them to cheer you and buy your product when its going well, you need to accept the fact that when you don't deliver what they want, that that passion will be turned to boos. But, they never seem to remember that w/o that passion in the first place, they'd all be sitting in cubes like the rest of us (or working retail, or whatever) instead of getting to do what they love (something that kindles some passion in others).


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## Steel_Wind (Mar 12, 2009)

Banshee16 said:


> I have no idea how he's going to have HBO do a series, given he hasn't finished writing the books yet.  Unless he picks up the pace for the final few books, it'll likely be HBO writers making things up as they go along, or writing scripts based on rough outlines..




Well. I think that GRRM counts it out this way...

By the time the pilot is actually filmed and shown, there will be five books in print.

Assuming the series is then greenlit and stays in production at the rate of one novel = one season a year...and actually gets to the end of book five where book six is needed - he'll be done book 6 which will already be out in print by that point.

And that's a VERY big assumption. The chances of that level of success happening, given HBO's past track record with _Rome_, would appear to be vanishingly small.

But...yes, it could happen. If so, then...it's a bit touch and go whether or not book 7 gets resolved in print before the series or whether it's the series getting resolved before the book. (My bet - series gets filmed before book is submitted for publishing), but series *with* book released shortly thereafter.

But all of this assumes first that HBO actually green lights and keeps filming a pilot plus six YEARS of a fantistorical series, that they have not yet even greenlit past a pilot.  Only then does this giant shark and its ominous music get close to GRRM's boat.

I also expect that GRRM figures that the end of a monumental series is a lot easier to write than the middle. There will be far fewer plot threads to keep track of by the time he gets to Book seven of aSoIaF. The beginning and endings are much easier than the middle of any large work to write.

My guess is that GRRM has thought about pretty much all of the above when he has mused on the "_what if the HBO series actually passes me_" conundrum.


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## Fast Learner (Mar 12, 2009)

Zaukrie said:


> I always love it when athletes (or in this case authors) get annoyed with the passion of their fans. Without that passion, they'd not be rich in the first place.




That assumes that they reason they write (or play basketball or whatever) is to get rich. Some of them sure, but birds gotta fly and fish gotta swim. Martin may well write in order to write, because he loves it. You (or me) paying him money for a past work doesn't mean he needs to write to make you (or me) happy. I didn't pay him for future work, I paid him for what I got.


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## Banshee16 (Mar 13, 2009)

Fast Learner said:


> That assumes that they reason they write (or play basketball or whatever) is to get rich. Some of them sure, but birds gotta fly and fish gotta swim. Martin may well write in order to write, because he loves it. You (or me) paying him money for a past work doesn't mean he needs to write to make you (or me) happy. I didn't pay him for future work, I paid him for what I got.




True.  However...

I think that there's a certain "social contract".  He wrote the first book, as the first in a series, announced to be, what....five books?  And now it'll be seven?  In any case, he wrote the first book, people loved it, and began purchasing more of the books, based on the fact that they enjoyed each book as they went along, and, because they know there are more coming, and they want to find out how the story ends.

Then, he dramatically slows down, loses interest, gets writers block, who knows....?

He doesn't owe anything more than what he's written, and what the consumers/readers have purchased.  However, many of them have continued purchasing the books, contingent upon the fact that they're part of a larger series, and that he's working on finishing the series.

I ask you this......do you think his fan base would have been anywhere near as large after the first book if he said right at the beginning "well, this is going to be a great series, it's planned for five books, but you know, I think I've changed my mind and don't feel like finishing it, and I'll just leave you hanging about the ending."

If he'd come out and said that at the beginning, I likely wouldn't have continued reading the series.  I'm sure many others wouldn't have either.

That having been said, the man's got a life, and a right to do what he wants.  He's not beholden to anyone (aside from any contracts he may have signed with his publisher dictating X many books in the series, etc.).  Life's about more than work, as I've been reminded in the last several months, and maybe he's lost interest.  I don't know.

I like to believe that people mean well, and mainly try their best, so I'll just hope that he's a guy who likely had a plan from book 1, added an extra piece into the middle, and has gotten lost trying to figure out how to tie the beginning to the end, but is legitimately trying.

To tie it all into the discussion of fame, however......it's a nice problem to have, to have thousands of people waiting with baited breath for the next novel you write to be finished.  There are worse problems to have in life, despite the rudeness of some fans who feel inclined to be insensitive on internet message boards.

Banshee


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## Banshee16 (Mar 13, 2009)

Vocenoctum said:


> While I do agree with you, for the most part this isn't folks stalking him. I mean, he's announcing his private life, and complaining when folks waiting for closure ask "what about us?". Are some of them out of line? certainly so, but that doesn't mean there's no reason folks have become impatient.
> 
> Also, I think what a lot of these type of threads overestimate is how unimportant these internet comments are, really.
> 
> ...




It's very easy to see the bad apples, and forget that most people have better manners, and aren't riding him.  The rude people tend to stand out, while there are probably 100 or 1000 people who'll read the book when it comes out, maybe forget it's coming out, see it on the shelf in a few years, and resume the series etc.  But those people don't tend to post nearly as much....that's just a minority, so I'm sure GRR Martin is reacting to a vocal minority.

It's frustrating waiting, but I've moved on.  As Nicholson once said......"Goozefrabba"....

Banshee


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## Fast Learner (Mar 16, 2009)

Banshee16 said:


> True.  However...
> 
> --- SNIP excellent analysis ---



I certainly wouldn't argue that people bought the book as part of a series, with the expectation that if an author begins a series, he'll work to finish it. 

I suppose I'd just hope that purchasers would realize that series don't finish for all kinds of reasons. These include the death of the author, cancellation by the publisher, and yes, authors being unable to finish it due to a wide variety of problems, from illness and other personal life issues to a loss of interest or ability to write the rest of the series. Knowing that it happens, me, I buy a book in a series hoping the book is great. Yes, I also want the series to be great, but I know full well that there are a dozen or more reasons why there won't be a full series.

So, I agree that there's a social contract that the author will _try_ to finish the series, but not that he guarantees that he will.



> I like to believe that people mean well, and mainly try their best, so I'll just hope that he's a guy who likely had a plan from book 1, added an extra piece into the middle, and has gotten lost trying to figure out how to tie the beginning to the end, but is legitimately trying.




Aye, I suspect that's exactly the case. That and the very understandable pressure of suddenly writing The Greatest Fantasy Series In Modern Times, which would screw up any most any writer.


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## Arnwyn (Mar 17, 2009)

Fast Learner said:


> Knowing that it happens, me, I buy a book in a series hoping the book is great.




Sounds like a good approach.

For me, I solve this potential issue by never buying a series until it is entirely complete.


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## Asmo (Mar 17, 2009)

Arnwyn said:


> For me, I solve this potential issue by never buying a series until it is entirely complete.




I´ve been doing this since I started "The Path of Daggers" by Robert Jordan and couldn´t remember what had happened in the previous book.


Asmo


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## Fast Learner (Mar 18, 2009)

Arnwyn said:


> Sounds like a good approach.
> 
> For me, I solve this potential issue by never buying a series until it is entirely complete.




The only real downside being the potential unavailability of earlier books. Risky both ways, I suppose.


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## Arnwyn (Mar 18, 2009)

Fast Learner said:


> The only real downside being the potential unavailability of earlier books. Risky both ways, I suppose.



Thankfully not a downside for me. If the series takes so long to complete such that the earlier books _aren't even available for me to buy_, then it's clear that series was never for me in the first place.


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## drothgery (Mar 18, 2009)

Arnwyn said:


> Thankfully not a downside for me. If the series takes so long to complete such that the earlier books _aren't even available for me to buy_, then it's clear that series was never for me in the first place.




I think it depends on the series. I mean, there are things like _The Wheel of Time_ or _A Song of Ice and Fire_ that are a really a single, multi-volume story, and you don't want to jump into something like that in the middle.

But there's also things like the Discworld books or the Miles Vorkosigan books where while you might not want to pick up some of the later works without the earlier ones, they're usually pretty self-contained stories. And there's generally no problem in picking up one of those before the author has decided that they're done with the universe for a while.


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## Krug (Apr 2, 2009)

Ahem...
George R. R. Martin's A Dance With Dragons to release later this month - Suvudu - Science Fiction and Fantasy Books, Movies, and Games


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## Remus Lupin (Apr 2, 2009)

Oh, now you're just being cruel! I'm glad I remembered the date!


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