# Black or white?



## Morrus

White:  http://www.enworld.org/index.html

Black: http://www.enworld.org/index2.html

Fight!l


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## Frostmarrow

I like the white, but only on the front page. The forums are cosy.


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## Harr

Why would black make your eyes go funny, I don't get it?

Anyways, voted black, of course. White would turn ENW into another one of the 1000000000 bright, shiny gradient-y web-2.0-ish forums that saturate the net. Black is Enworld's 'thing'.


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## Charwoman Gene

White, so it don't look so much like WOW. (I know we had it first.)

Maybe Black and red... old school


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## Oni

ugh all the white is an assault on the eyes.  However the "black" is too grey and makes everything look washed out and a little harder to read.  I prefer the deeper richer black of the forums and that is actually my preference for webpages in general as I consider it to be one of the easiest background colours on the eyes for reading.  Plus black is almost always a decent design decision.


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## jaerdaph

To paraphrase the movie _Airplane_, I like my EN World like I like my men...

What?


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## blargney the second

Black!  (A little blacker would up the contrast nicely.)


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## johnnype

White. So I can read it at work!


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## Kingbreaker

johnnype said:


> White. So I can read it at work!




Qft


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## Umbran

I find the black to be less wear and tear on the eyes.


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## Guillaume

Although black is cool, it is very tiring when reading for a long time (which I tend to do). I prefer the white. That being said, my favorite theme was the old Player's Handbook theme on the old ENWorld1 boards.


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## Henrix

Black is "cool"? Really?

I prefer white, or at least a lighter colour.


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## Morrus

Harr said:


> Why would black make your eyes go funny, I don't get it?




Some people claim it does.  :shrug:


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## Darkwolf71

Black of course. It makes the forums look thinner.

Seriously, I find it much less eye straining, also when I browse at night in a dark room sudden white pages get moved through as quickly as possible.


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## LightPhoenix

The answer is skins, of course!  

All kidding aside, I prefer the black background.  However, if the contrast wasn't so huge on the white background (maybe a light grey background?) I would consider it.


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## Henrix

Guillaume said:


> That being said, my favorite theme was the old Player's Handbook theme on the old ENWorld1 boards.




I concur. About the first thing I looked for in the new boards was a theme like that.


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## hafrogman

Black. . .

Or maybe the brushed charcoal look that hangs around behind the forums?  I don't know if that would be readable, though.


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## garyh

I prefer white for work browsing, but as has been mentioned, the answer is really skins.  Everyone gets what they want that way.


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## Patlin

It says I'm not allowed to vote in this poll, but I prefer black.


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## Cergorach

The white is a little hurtfull on my eyes on my 30" monitor, I'm considering wearing sunglasses and using sunblock 30 when I view the front page...


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## Morrus

garyh said:


> I prefer white for work browsing, but as has been mentioned, the answer is really skins.  Everyone gets what they want that way.




Skins = an account database entry, which turns the news page from a simple HTML page into a database driven page.  The reason the fonrt page stears clear of the database is to try and igve people at least occasional access to the site! 

Maybe when we have the new server, we can think about returning to a database based page, but for now, it's just a single page of HTML updated and periodically uploaded manually by me.

Which means no skins.


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## garyh

Morrus said:


> Skins = an account database entry, which turns the news page from a simple HTML page into a database driven page.  The reason the fonrt page stears clear of the database is to try and igve people at least occasional access to the site!
> 
> Maybe when we have the new server, we can think about returning to a database based page, but for now, it's just a single page of HTML updated and periodically uploaded manually by me.
> 
> Which means no skins.




Since most folks stop only briefly at the main page and proceed to the forums (I'm guessing), I can see just having one version of the main page.  But letting folks change the skin on the forums would be nice.  I have no idea if a combo of static front page and skinned forums is easy to implement or easy on the server, though.


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## LightPhoenix

Morrus said:


> Skins = an account database entry, which turns the news page from a simple HTML page into a database driven page.  The reason the fonrt page stears clear of the database is to try and igve people at least occasional access to the site!




I was being facetious, and thought I got that across.  Sorry.    Skins/style sheets is (to me) akin to the whole "just add a toggle" response to video game coding -  a simple answer with a complex solution.


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## Ghaerdon Fain

Do we get a fast or slow option?


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## lkj

I find black easier on the eyes. Who knows why.

AD


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## Penguinised

It's got to be black. For starters it doesn't melt your eyes while browsing at night and think of all the power you're saving not having to illuminate all those pixels at full brightness


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## theredrobedwizard

Black is better on the eyes (I will never understand the "white, because I read at work" thing; if someone could explain, I would be grateful) and is also more energy efficient.

-TRRW


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## Altamont Ravenard

johnnype said:


> White. So I can read it at work!




Yes, YES!

The low-bandwith option at WotC's boards would be perfect.



> I will never understand the "white, because I read at work" thing; if someone could explain, I would be grateful




Well, most people work on Word/Excel all day, so a white screen looks more like you're working than a black screen.

AR


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## Dog Moon

I would go with the white, but if we HAD to go with the black, I'd want that grey strip along the left side a slightly different color.  The color links on the gray background just look horrible to me.


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## Orci

I usually prefer black, but the white one looks more professional.


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## Steve Jung

I prefer the white page.


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## BulletMagnet

I wish there was a third color...the color of Chuck Norris Black and Blue!!!!!!!!!


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## El Mahdi

Umbran said:


> I find the black to be less wear and tear on the eyes.




Second this.


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## bujoojoo

*Voted for White*

I would actually prefer an off-white, so I agree with the earlier poster regarding skins...

But I really wouldn't care what color the page was if the LINKS WEREN'T BROKEN!!!  Seriously, "Please contact the billing/support department as soon as possible."  WTF?


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## Mister Doug

I thought that you weren't supposed to have white forums after Labor Day!

But my aging eyes find the white background easier to read. Either works, though.


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## SSquirrel

Black like Darth Vader before ya fin out he's white underneath   Dark chocolate grey is kind of how the black on ENWorld ends up on my screen.  I can tell it's trying to be black, but it isn't ready to go full on goth yet heh.


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## Knightfall

Oni said:


> ugh all the white is an assault on the eyes.  However the "black" is too grey and makes everything look washed out and a little harder to read.  I prefer the deeper richer black of the forums and that is actually my preference for webpages in general as I consider it to be one of the easiest background colours on the eyes for reading.  Plus black is almost always a decent design decision.



I must agree with this logical comment.


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## theredrobedwizard

Altamont Ravenard said:


> Well, most people work on Word/Excel all day, so a white screen looks more like you're working than a black screen.
> 
> AR




Thanks!

Also, one other thing in regards to the color;  There's a front page?  

-TRRW


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## freyar

I would prefer black, but the yellowish font is a bit harder to read.  White text, like forum posts, would be a bit better.


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## CleverNickName

The question is how much more black can this be?  And the answer is none.  None more black.  [/Nigel]


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## Morrus

bujoojoo said:
			
		

> But I really wouldn't care what color the page was if the LINKS WEREN'T BROKEN!!!  Seriously, "Please contact the billing/support department as soon as possible."  WTF?




Which link(s)?  Certainly not any of the interior links coming to parts of EN World.  

I'm afraid I have no control over whether another website goes down after I've linked to it.


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## Jack Colby

Harr said:


> Why would black make your eyes go funny, I don't get it?





Lucky you.  Yeah, black sites mess with my eyes badly.  I voted white, but of course black will win.


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## Wepwawet

I voted white because it is stealthier when I'm at work  (which is where I usually read the forums)


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## ruemere

White, but only if the fonts and line spacings are similar to this:
http://www.projectseven.com/products/templates/pagepacks/dejavu/page4.htm

or this:
http://techmagazine.ws/web-designers-inspiration-package-40-dark-designs/

For nice dark desgins, try this:
(see link above and scroll the page)

To clarify: 
I am not suggesting design change, merely change of fonts, font sizes, font spacings and headers. Also font colors in relation to background tone.

Basically, any high contrast setting, while very readable, is also rather tiring on eyes. On the other hand, with contrast getting too low, legibility gets worse.

Rule of thumb here is: the bigger font, the smaller contrast.
2nd rule of thumb: the smaller font, the bigger contrast and bigger spacing between lines and paragraphs.

Regards,
Ruemere


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## dammitbiscuit

Black fails to hurt my eyes. This poll is biased!


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## Walking Dad

I voted for black. It keeps the room darker, when I'm playing human bed for my baby-girl.

Question: Is it impossible to programm a possibility to choose, like before?

I think to design sets (black and white) would be enough.


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## Mighty Halfling

Wepwawet said:


> I voted white because it is stealthier when I'm at work  (which is where I usually read the forums)




The reason for my vote as well. 
That being said, I like a Black front page, but I'd like the option for white forums.


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## Alaxk Knight of Galt

Black please


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## dbm

<geek>
From an ergonomic ('human factors' in US speak) perspective, a white background should be easier to read for most people as there is more light actually reaching your eyes.

From an 'environmental' perspective an LCD display actually takes most energy to display black and least to show white (as all the pixels are illuminated all the time and just blanked out when not needed - which uses more power).
</geek>

I voted white, for the stealth factor.  And black is _so_ 90's.

Cheers
Dan


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## Xeveninti

White text on black background is hard on the eyes. It's not very good web page design. Amateurs think it looks cool but it isn't. Far from it.

If you guys feel you must go with the white-on-black, at least allow for the option of having different skins for the rest of us who want to retain the use of our eyes in future years.


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## Brown Jenkin

I prefer the black (like my men  ) but as others have pointed out the gray really washes out. Is there a way to do some sort of cookie option where an alternate version can be chosen, like how alternate pages are loaded based on browsers?

Now all you need is some neon green and and a large logo overwhelming the page [/humor]


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## Morrus

Black is far ahead with 61% of the votes.  Looks like The People have spoken, but I'll leave it a bit longer.


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## pbsoutham

I vote for white. I can't get away with viewing a black window at work!


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## buzz

I voted white, as it was far more readable.

That said, it'd be nice to see fully-designed mock-ups, as there's more to a usable design than just that one color choice. E.g., the tiled slate backgrounds EN uses are a bigger issue for me than the font color.


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## Cwheeler

I prefer the black, but would love to see the tonality of the greys fixed up to make it easier to read.

Thanks for consulting us .


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## edbonny

johnnype said:


> White. So I can read it at work!




Here! Here! You speak the truth!


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## Morrus

I've modified both the black and white versions.

If anyone knows of a cookie-based bit of code that'll allow you to choose which you prefer, let me know (as opposed to something that requires a database query, which we're strictly avoiding on the news page right now).


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## Ashrum the Black

Black is best. The white is just way to bright on the ol' mark one eyeball. Especially if I need to stare at it for any lenght of time.

-Ashrum


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## Achan hiArusa

Black.  It reminds me of my first computer (okay if the text were green then it would be like the old TRS-80 Model IV I first programmed on).


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## Morrus

I've kludged together an inelegant solution - it means I have to update two nearly identical pages.  But it'll work for now.


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## frankthedm

Altamont Ravenard said:


> Well, most people work on Word/Excel all day, so a white screen looks more like you're working than a black screen.



Web browsers let you turn off colours. If someone is not allowed web access while at work, It won't just be enworld's colours at issue.


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## WhatGravitas

Black. It's easier on the eyes, especially during nightly browsing - no need to have your retinas burned. 

And it's ENWorld's "thing".

And white only looks good if done well (like all these gradient-filled Web 2.0 websites, otherwise it looks like very bare HTML).

So, yeah, black, please.

And for the work surfers, I recommed Zap Colors - it's pretty universal! 

Cheers, LT.


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## Charwoman Gene

Umm, a small request?  could the white pages be given the old text colors?

Right now, with the Gold,  zee goiggles, zey do nothing!


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## Plane Sailing

Morrus said:


> I've modified both the black and white versions.
> 
> If anyone knows of a cookie-based bit of code that'll allow you to choose which you prefer, let me know (as opposed to something that requires a database query, which we're strictly avoiding on the news page right now).




Should be pretty easy.

I've used styleswitch.js to do this in the past.

Put the following code in the <head> of the page (just before </head> )

black.css and white.css are the black and white versions of your css.



		Code:
	

<link rel="alternate stylesheet" href="/black.css" type="text/css" media="screen" title="Black-Style" />
<link rel="alternate stylesheet" href="/white.css" type="text/css" media="screen" title="White-Style" />

<!--This script should appear below your LINK stylesheet tags -->

<script src="/include/styleswitch.js" type="text/javascript">

/***********************************************
* Style Sheet Switcher v1.1- © Dynamic Drive DHTML code library (www.dynamicdrive.com)
* This notice MUST stay intact for legal use
* Visit Dynamic Drive at http://www.dynamicdrive.com/ for this script and 100s more
***********************************************/

</script>
<script type="text/javascript">
window.onload=function(){
if (getCookie("mysheet") == null) {
  chooseStyle("Black-Style", 60);
}
var formref=document.getElementById("switchform")
indicateSelected(formref.choice)
}
</script>


Then at the bottom of the home page you can have



		Code:
	

<p style="font-size:9px;">Choose your preferred style for this site: <form id="switchform">
<input type="radio" name="choice" value="Black-Style" onClick="chooseStyle(this.value, 60)">Black Style<br />
<input type="radio" name="choice" value="White-Style" onClick="chooseStyle(this.value, 60)">White Style
</form></p>


Then put the attached .js file in the appropriate place (in my example here it would be in an /include/ directory - if you want to put it somewhere else just modify the script src= tag at the top of the example)

(I've had to rename the script include file as styleswitch.js.txt in order to upload it - you will rename it to styleswitch.js)

This will then provide black pages by default, but if someone selects white it will use a cookie to remember and give them white pages in the future.

Cheers


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## Morrus

Charwoman Gene said:


> Umm, a small request?  could the white pages be given the old text colors?
> 
> Right now, with the Gold,  zee goiggles, zey do nothing!




Huh?  Gold, what?  What's gold?  It's white background, black text, blue links.  It's identical to how it was yesterday, and the day before, and the day before that, and a week ago.  As in, I didn't change the white one, except to move some text and add a couple of links.

Methinks it's your goggles that are borked, not the website!  Go tell your optician you're hallucinating colours that don't exist! 

There ain't no gold!


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## Plane Sailing

Personally I like dark text on a light background best.

1. better contrast level (for me)
2. better readability (especially on handheld devices like iPhone)
3. black is very 90's. Lots of black websites in the late 90's. Not so many now (especially amongst sites that have lots of text for you to read)
4. better, uh, work compatibility. nuff said.

Cheers


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## Dragonhelm

*Ebony and ivory....*

I want zebra stripes.  I won't go grey, though.


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## Lurker37

Umbran said:


> I find the black to be less wear and tear on the eyes.




Indeed. IMO the voting fluff is the wrong way around. White is what strains my eyes, not black.


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## Branduil

I'd like the ability to choose a white or light gray background for the forums.


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## Walking Dad

Go away with grey! 

Serious, on grey it is harder to read white than on black and harder to read black than on white.

And I like my dark room. Keep black as an option at least, please.

That is NO fluff vote.


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## Blackrat

Are we talking only about the frontpage or the forums also? For the former, I don't really care, since I only stop by it while coming to forums while at work. For the whole site, well black is kind of iconic for ENW, isn't it? I like it.


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## ki11erDM

The new color (or colour if you must) is not bad at all.  The gold/red on black is not killing my eyes like the white on black does (as the forums still are).


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## Walking Dad

Lord Tirian said:


> Black. It's easier on the eyes, especially during nightly browsing - no need to have your retinas burned.
> 
> And it's ENWorld's "thing".
> 
> And white only looks good if done well (like all these gradient-filled Web 2.0 websites, otherwise it looks like very bare HTML).
> 
> So, yeah, black, please.
> 
> And for the work surfers, I recommed Zap Colors - it's pretty universal!
> 
> Cheers, LT.



Is there something to change the backround to black and the script to white? Like a negative of your mentioned application?


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## Kheti sa-Menik

(no one...NO one has made the obligatory Michael Jackson joke yet?
Fine.)


If you're thinkin' 'bout bein' my message board, it don't matter if you're black or white.
HEE HEE  OW!


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## Olaf the Stout

I'm a bit strange.  I voted black for the front page but I think I would prefer white for the forums so I can browse them at work. 

A return of the stealth skin from ENW1 would be my first preference though.

Olaf the Stout


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## Angel Tarragon

Skins is where its at. Failing that, white text on black background.


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## spilth

Morrus said:


> Skins = an account database entry, which turns the news page from a simple HTML page into a database driven page.  The reason the fonrt page stears clear of the database is to try and igve people at least occasional access to the site!
> 
> Maybe when we have the new server, we can think about returning to a database based page, but for now, it's just a single page of HTML updated and periodically uploaded manually by me.
> 
> Which means no skins.




I don't know any details about how the site works, but have you considered/explored using server-side caching for your database-driven pages? When updating your news table, write out the results to a static HTML file.


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## Thorfin

I concur with Olaf concerning the Stealth choice of ENW1.   Prior to my discovery of the skins option, Stealth in particular,  I was only good for about 45 minutes of lurking before the eye/head aches began.   I am a little surprised that others haven't mentioned the same problem... feeling quite gimpy right now actually.

But.... between the two options... white for me.


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## Yalius

Black text on a white background-- please!!

I'll even throw in a gratuitous reference--

http://sigs.aisnet.org/SIGHCI/bit04/BIT_Hall.pdf

A study backed by the University of Maryland that found that, even among those who expressed a preference for black backgrounds, a white background was rated more readable, more professional, and allowed greater retention of information.

Besides, don't the annoying afterimages of white text on a black background get on peoples' nerves? I literally have to look away every time I scroll up or down because of afterimages in my eyes; the black background just doesn't provide the necessary neutral reference and ambient stimulation.

Seriously, white on black is bad. B-A-D bad. Hard on the eyes, distracting, and definitely causes contrast and afterimage problems with scrolling and browsing to more (to be charitable) well-thought-out pages.


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## DarkKestral

Yalius said:


> Black text on a white background-- please!!
> 
> I'll even throw in a gratuitous reference--
> 
> http://sigs.aisnet.org/SIGHCI/bit04/BIT_Hall.pdf
> 
> A study backed by the University of Maryland that found that, even among those who expressed a preference for black backgrounds, a white background was rated more readable, more professional, and allowed greater retention of information.
> 
> Besides, don't the annoying afterimages of white text on a black background get on peoples' nerves? I literally have to look away every time I scroll up or down because of afterimages in my eyes; the black background just doesn't provide the necessary neutral reference and ambient stimulation.
> 
> Seriously, white on black is bad. B-A-D bad. Hard on the eyes, distracting, and definitely causes contrast and afterimage problems with scrolling and browsing to more (to be charitable) well-thought-out pages.




I've also seen studies (I'm searching as we speak) that claim it's also dependent on some outside variables. For me, I prefer white on black, as it causes me MUCH less eyestrain than black on white, particularly for long reading periods. However, I generally use my computers in lower light situations than might be found in many offices, (something I've noticed is common for some people favoring white on black, where the reduced environmental contrast helps prevent eyestrain) and in many cases with lighting of a slightly different color temp. I also use fairly bright monitors, so staring at white for long periods causes eyestrain from too much light, rather than the reverse.

And as far as contrast white on black is equally high contrast (for good or ill) as black on white.

However, one of the things noted to help readability (both in the case of white on black and black on white) is using a slightly "off" color for the background rather than the standard black or the standard white. Books are traditionally black on white, but usually the paper used is more of a cream color just as an artifact of imperfect bleaching, which reduces some of the contrast, incidentally helping prevent eyestrain. Another factor which helps readability of books is the small amounts of pure whitespace to cause contrast issues, so there's usually a fairly good mix of black and white, leaving a relatively "average" grey as the overall average tone of a page. On a sight like ENWorld, where at times there are large chunks of space not taken up by images or text, that doesn't apply, and it may vary from light to dark.

So, to really produce an optimal "white" for readability you aren't actually looking at white as a background. You're looking at a beige or a lighter grey. They're reasonably high contrast, but don't cause the same glare issues that some people have with light backgrounds. Likewise, an optimal black is in fact somewhere around a navy blue or a dark grey.

Furthermore, nearly all studies of this type have focused solely on readability of text in reflected or indirect light, not direct light as found in LCDs. So it's a little disingenuous to say that studies "prove" black on white is strictly better. There doesn't really appear to be many studies focused on direct-light readability in a variety of visual settings from low-light to bright-light.


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## Morrus

Guys, I'm gonna close this since the problem no longer exists - you can have either colour scheme on the front page.


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