# Jessica Jones [spoilers allowed]



## Morrus (Nov 21, 2015)

It just hit Netflix yesterday. Full series, ready for binge-watching. Don't worry about hiding spoilers. Whatcha think?


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## Crothian (Nov 21, 2015)

I'm through episode seven. I really like that it shows her being a detective. Even with her special abilities her main power is being a PI. Kilgrave is the scariest villain Marvel has but on big or small screen. The show is doing a great job of showing on people he uses become broken.


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## Ryujin (Nov 22, 2015)

About halfway through the episodes and really liking it. It's concentrating on people more than powers, which was a good choice for a series. Movies don't have the same time for character development.


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## PurpleDragonKnight (Nov 22, 2015)

It's great.  After you watch two or three shows Morrus, you'll understand the post I made that you cut out... LOL


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## Tonguez (Nov 22, 2015)

I'm liking it and will happily claim it is probably the best TV show on any network at the moment. 

I like that the superhero bit is understated and it is very much a character study exploring the lives of an ensemble of broken people coping in the dark underbelly of NYC. AT times it is a bit slow paced and the action a tad lame. although I think that is appropriate in the circumstance and does well to differentiate JJ from the more sanguine DD. The psychological tension is palpable and Tenant makes an awesome villain.

Its not recognisably comicbook and if it wasnt for the regular nods, one wouldnt even know it was connected to the Marvelverse. However we do get lots of Avengers references and a Jewel costume and call out in episode 5. 
As PurpleDragon points out, super-enhanced banging is a thing, its raw but not crass and the only 'nudity' so far has been a male buttcrack. I'm not sure why the Jerri affair is there though, but its good to see a major gay character (yeah sure I like hot lesbians, but I am hoping theres more to it than either titilation or a girl-power statement ). Of course the show also deals with obsession and rape but thats been lowkey too and I'm interested to see how well it is handled.

The formation of Jessicas team is a refereshing take when compared to Arrow and The Flash - the police guy is a bit too Punisher-like to me though but I like that Luke Cage has a major role and that Patsy Walker is already acquiring the combat skills she needs to make the superhero role call too

Anyway going to sleep now will watch more when I awaken


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## Ryujin (Nov 22, 2015)

Tonguez said:


> I'm liking it and will happily claim it is probably the best TV show on any network at the moment.
> 
> I like that the superhero bit is understated and it is very much a character study exploring the lives of an assemble of broken people coping in the dark underbelly of NYC. AT times it is a bit slow paced and the action a tad lame. although I think that is appropriate in the circumstance and does well to differentiate JJ from the more sanguine DD. The psychological tension is palpable and Tenant makes an awesome villain.
> 
> ...




The whole thing is pretty much a metaphor for dealing with the mental and physical repercussions of rape.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Nov 22, 2015)

The most important similarity to Daredevil was basically that it was tight story-telling, with a lot of focus on the characters. It does stuff a big screen movie couldn't do. 
I love it and I am looking forward to any continuations or other Netflix series of this type.
Particularly about Jessica Jones is that I really like the "Noir" type of story-telling. 

An interesting aspect is that both shows are more grounded in reality than Avengers or Agents of SHIELD. Our heroes get really beaten up (well, the ones that can be beaten up) and have to deal with it for a while, and the action is not as over-the-top. In a way of course, I guess this also makes these shows rather cheap to make - you don't have to bring the full CGI and SFX palette. But that's great since more time is spend on story and characterization. 

It's not just a metaphor for rape - it's also explicitly rape. 
But I guess Killgrave nails down the aspect of absolute helpless even further, because he can make anyone do anything, and no one can resist or fight him. And the show really communicates that feeling.


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## Dog Moon (Nov 22, 2015)

PurpleDragonKnight said:


> It's great.  After you watch two or three shows Morrus, you'll understand the post I made that you cut out... LOL




They broke the bed!


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## Kramodlog (Nov 22, 2015)

I saw the first episode with the girlfriend. She isn't a fan of superhero stuff and rape rarely is her favorite subject, but she wants to see more of the series. The characters and the plot have gotten her interests.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Nov 22, 2015)

I won't be watching- I don't have Netflix- so I have no idea what Killgrave's power is.  Enlighten please?


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## Kramodlog (Nov 22, 2015)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> I won't be watching- I don't have Netflix- so I have no idea what Killgrave's power is.  Enlighten please?




He can make people do what he wants. How he does it in the show hasn't been explained after one episode. In the comics he is a mutant that has mind controlling body odor if I remember correctly.


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## Tonguez (Nov 22, 2015)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> I won't be watching- I don't have Netflix- so I have no idea what Killgrave's power is.  Enlighten please?




He's a narcissitic pyschopath with the power of casual Mind control, to the point that he doesn't actually know if he is getting what he wants because people are controlled or because they simply want to gve it.- it's explained by his victims that "he makes you want to do whatever he tells you to do even if at the back of your mind you know you don't want to"

in the comics its chemical (pheromone) based,  in the show its a virus and in episode 8/9 iirc they show how he acquired his viral ability (and also why he's so f'd up)


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Nov 23, 2015)

Tonguez said:


> He's a narcissitic pyschopath with the power of casual Mind control, to the point that he doesn't actually know if he is getting what he wants because people are controlled or because they simply want to gve it.- it's explained by his victims that "he makes you want to do whatever he tells you to do even if at the back of your mind you know you don't want to"
> 
> in the comics its chemical (pheromone) based,  in the show its a virus and in episode 8/9 iirc they show how he acquired his viral ability (and also why he's so f'd up)



To be honest... I think his past doesn't really explain his behaviour again. It's not like he's the first "super" or "gifted" from painful experimentation done to him. Some turn supervillain, some superhero, some in between. Some want to help others because they feel empathy with the suffering, others want to lash out.
But he's not even lashnig out or on a vengeance spree or something.

I think it's more the nature of his power that makes it so easy to use it for bad. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.


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## Tonguez (Nov 23, 2015)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> To be honest... I think his past doesn't really explain his behaviour again. It's not like he's the first "super" or "gifted" from painful experimentation done to him. Some turn supervillain, some superhero, some in between. Some want to help others because they feel empathy with the suffering, others want to lash out.
> But he's not even lashnig out or on a vengeance spree or something.
> 
> I think it's more the nature of his power that makes it so easy to use it for bad. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.




yeah I guess you're right there, I suppose his past is just another crutch he uses.
For me the thing that made Killgrave so fascinating was that he was so pointless and pathetic. His whole obsession with Jessica was that of a spoilt self entitled child, purposeless - pure narcissism

Which I suppose really makes Killgrave the perfect villain for the post-millenial age  (hyperbole)


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## Ryujin (Nov 23, 2015)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> To be honest... I think his past doesn't really explain his behaviour again. It's not like he's the first "super" or "gifted" from painful experimentation done to him. Some turn supervillain, some superhero, some in between. Some want to help others because they feel empathy with the suffering, others want to lash out.
> But he's not even lashnig out or on a vengeance spree or something.
> 
> I think it's more the nature of his power that makes it so easy to use it for bad. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.




He even mentally edits hos past to justify his actions. Instead of "using experimental retroviral therapy to save his life", his parents "performed evil experiments on their own child."


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## PurpleDragonKnight (Nov 23, 2015)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> I won't be watching- I don't have Netflix- so I have no idea what Killgrave's power is.  Enlighten please?




Kilgrave: Sense Motive +17, Bluff +23, Diplomacy +23, Coax Information Rogue Talent, and "Do what I say (Ex)"

Do What I Say (Ex): At will, as a swift action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity, Kilgrave can instruct anyone within 60 feet to do what he says. Line of sight is not required, and the effect can work around corners up to the total distance of 60 feet, similar to how the message spell can work around barriers (therefore Kilgrave can use this ability on an invisible target within that range, and can use it on a target behind a stone wall if the wall has air openings that create an uninterrupted path to the target). This effect works like the following spells: suggestion, mass suggestion or dominate person (caster level 12). The effect can last a maximum of 12 hours with no save allowed, and the target is not immune to the command even if it would be harmful to the target. This is a sonic, disease effect (targets that are deaf or immune to diseases are immune to this effect). This effect can be suppressed by a silence spell and remove disease (DC 23 for the purposes of remove disease only). If a target under this effect is administered an antiplague, the target can attempt a Fort save (without the +5 bonus from antiplague) against a DC of 23. Similarly, if a target affected by this ability already ingested an antiplague within the last hour, it can attempt a Fort save (without the +5 bonus from antiplague) against a DC of 23.


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## PurpleDragonKnight (Nov 24, 2015)

Dog Moon said:


> They broke the bed!




Indeed.  Regular people can break beds too, or so I've heard... heheheh


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## Tonguez (Nov 24, 2015)

PurpleDragonKnight said:


> Indeed.  Regular people can break beds too, or so I've heard... heheheh




yes, yes we can

anyway does anyone want to comment on

1 Gifted Origins - Marvelverse has justed added Retrovirus to its Superpower Origins along with Super-Soldier serums, Aliens/Gods, Technology and Inhumans

2 What is IGH? are they trying to replicate the Supersoldier Programme? Is it the Marvelverse name for the Weapon X programme? 
(note the show makes reference to the Big Green Guy and the Flag waiver, so was that not only an easter egg but a veiled hint to Supersoldiers)

3 Was there a point to Jeri Hogarth being a lesbian? in the comics Jeryn Hogarth is male, and while theres nothing wrong with the gender swap and even her being a lesbian, having the whole lesbian affair with the sexy young secretary just seemed to me to be a bit contrived and then by the end of the run largely irrelevant. 
She's a partner in a corporate law firm we always knew she was going to be a Mega-bitch without the side line distraction.

4, Who were the other kids on Reva's drive? Will Luke be going after them?


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Nov 24, 2015)

Ryujin said:


> He even mentally edits hos past to justify his actions. Instead of "using experimental retroviral therapy to save his life", his parents "performed evil experiments on their own child."




I am not sure that he understood that as child, to be honest.


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## Kramodlog (Nov 24, 2015)

After 5 episodes, I'm wondering if this show will be able have a good second season. The show is good because it focuses on JJ's trauma and her relationship to Kilgrave. Take that away and I'm not sure what we have. Would it be more up beat? As engaging if the BBEG of the second season isn't as personal for her?


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## Ryujin (Nov 24, 2015)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> I am not sure that he understood that as child, to be honest.




That's left rather ambiguous but the feel that I got from it was as I stated; that he convinced himself that his parents performed evil experiments on him. It makes it easier to support the inner narrative that none of it is his fault, just as he claims to have never killed anyone. It's one big denial of reality.



goldomark said:


> After 5 episodes, I'm wondering if this show will be able have a good second season. The show is good because it focuses on JJ's trauma and her relationship to Kilgrave. Take that away and I'm not sure what we have. Would it be more up beat? As engaging if the BBEG of the second season isn't as personal for her?




I'm wondering if the intent is to continue with a second season? They've started introducing less power characters like Daredevil and Jessica Jones, and while DD is getting a second season, they might well be just effectively introducing such 'lesser' characters to the public. They could well be creating an ongoing narrative to cover the rest of the Marvel Universe, without betting the farm on any single property.


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## Kramodlog (Nov 24, 2015)

Ryujin said:


> I'm wondering if the intent is to continue with a second season? They've started introducing less power characters like Daredevil and Jessica Jones, and while DD is getting a second season, they might well be just effectively introducing such 'lesser' characters to the public. They could well be creating an ongoing narrative to cover the rest of the Marvel Universe, without betting the farm on any single property.



It is possible we do not get to see a 2nd season. I think originally they wanted to do one season for each character and then do the Defenders. 

Some teasers for the 2nd season of DD sure points to JJ and Luke Cage being characters in that show. http://io9.com/netflix-and-marvel-know-the-exact-ten-seconds-which-wil-1744261590 How much will they be in it I do not know. Maybe DD's second season wasn't supposed to be, but ratings forced Disney's hand and they put JJ and LC in it a bit.

DD had a lot of foreshadowing about the the enemy the Defenders will fight. For now I haven't seen any in JJ.


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## Ryujin (Nov 24, 2015)

goldomark said:


> It is possible we do not get to see a 2nd season. I think originally they wanted to do one season for each character and then do the Defenders.
> 
> Some teasers for the 2nd season of DD sure points to JJ and Luke Cage being characters in that show. http://io9.com/netflix-and-marvel-know-the-exact-ten-seconds-which-wil-1744261590 How much will they be in it I do not know. Maybe DD's second season wasn't supposed to be, but ratings forced Disney's hand and they put JJ and LC in it a bit.
> 
> DD had a lot of foreshadowing about the the enemy the Defenders will fight. For now I haven't seen any in JJ.




"The Defenders" certainly makes sense. They did drop a comment about Matt Murdoch in JJ too.

*EDIT* I figure that it's only a matter of time before The Playboy Channel gets in on the comic book game too, by making a series for "Empowered."


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## Kramodlog (Nov 24, 2015)

Ryujin said:


> "The Defenders" certainly makes sense. They did drop a comment about Matt Murdoch in JJ too.




I'm ambivalent about the Defenders. A team composed of Hulk, Doctor Strange and the Silver Surfer sounds like a lot of fun. A team composed of JJ, DD, Luke Cage and Iron Fist sounds more like a neighborhood watch.


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## Morrus (Nov 24, 2015)

Ryujin said:


> They've started introducing less power characters like Daredevil and Jessica Jones,




I'm not sure I'd agree they were lesser powered. They're more powerful than Black Widow or Hawkeye, or most of Agents of SHIELD.  JJ seems tougher than Captain America to me (Luke Cage, too). At least as tough. 

Less famous, sure. Not lesser powered though!


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## Ryujin (Nov 24, 2015)

Morrus said:


> I'm not sure I'd agree they were lesser powered. They're more powerful than Black Widow or Hawkeye, or most of Agents of SHIELD.  JJ seems tougher than Captain America to me (Luke Cage, too). At least as tough.
> 
> Less famous, sure. Not lesser powered though!




Well given that Black Widow and Hawkeye are generally the butt of Avengers jokes..... 

[video=youtube;pb9l988kqL4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pb9l988kqL4[/video]

Though less famous certainly applies to JJ and Luke Cage, it doesn't to Daredevil. As far as comics go he was right up there with Spiderman, in my youth. The movies made the difference. After all, everyone really wants to forget THAT movie.


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## Tonguez (Nov 24, 2015)

goldomark said:


> . A team composed of JJ, DD, Luke Cage and Iron Fist sounds more like a neighborhood watch.




I think thats the point. Marvel doesn't want another franchise to compete with the Avengers flagship and thus steerss things towards the grim and gritty stories of people coping in the world. You can even credibly have 'normal' villains like Kingpin and the Maggia go up against them.

You can't really tell gritty ground-level stories with Silver Surfer and the Scorcerer Supreme or even the Hulk, although having Namor appear would be cool.

I'm interested to see what crossovers we get in the Marvelverse pulling SHEILD and the Defenders together against the 'normal' villains


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## Kramodlog (Nov 24, 2015)

I do not mind the neighborhod watch heroes, just that the Defenders are so epic in scale. The name seems soiled. Marvel ruined my childhood. #michaelbay


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## RangerWickett (Nov 25, 2015)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> I won't be watching- I don't have Netflix- so I have no idea what Killgrave's power is.  Enlighten please?




Importantly, a one month trial is free.


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## Raunalyn (Nov 25, 2015)

What's most intriguing to me;

While I do enjoy the characterizations of the titular heroes (Charlie Cox did an adequate job as Daredevil, but Krysten Ritter is quite enjoyable as JJ), it's the villains that are making these two shows for me.

Vincent D'Onofrio's Wilson Fisk was brilliantly played; you grow sympathetic to him, which makes it only more horrifying when his rage takes over (I'm thinking of the car door).

David Tennant does a fantastic job of playing an obsessed stalker who is utterly and completely creepy.

I've been genuinely impressed with both shows; the characterizations of both the heroes, the supporting characters, and especially the villains make both shows extremely compelling.


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## Bagpuss (Nov 26, 2015)

Noticed a nice Easter Egg in episode 6.

[sblock]When Luke Cage turns up to higher Jessica she first recommends Angela Del Toro, aka White Tiger.[/sblock]


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## Ryujin (Nov 26, 2015)

Bagpuss said:


> Noticed a nice Easter Egg in episode 6.
> 
> [sblock]When Luke Cage turns up to higher Jessica she first recommends Angela Del Toro, aka White Tiger.[/sblock]




I missed that one, but....

[sblock]... her blonde radio personality friend is Hellcat.[/sblock]


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## Staffan (Nov 29, 2015)

Ryujin said:


> I missed that one, but....
> 
> [sblock]... her blonde radio personality friend is Hellcat.[/sblock]




Also:
[sblock]Will Simpson, the police sergeant who goes rage-crazy, is Nuke from Daredevil, Captain America, and Wolverine.[/sblock]


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## Morrus (Nov 29, 2015)

You don't need to spoiler block them, guys. Entire conversations behind spoiler tags are a bit silly. It doesn't work on Tapatalk anyway. It's a spoiler thread!


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Nov 30, 2015)

I am now rewatching Jessica Jones (slowly, instead of the binge week-end the last time). 
Some things that are unclear the first time around make sense knowing it all:
Jessica Jones is "stalking" Lucas because of her killing his wife. On the first viewing, it seemed more like that might just be something she did when she could not sleep, and later I didn't really actively think about it more.
On the first viewing, it seems like Killgrave is playing with Jessica - especially when he sees her and doesn't immediately try to give her orders. But he probably already knows, or ist at least worried, by then, that he might not be able to control her - so he takes off and puts the family in her way so he can be sure he gets away. It also explains his other security measures a lot better - it's not just paranoia.

The scene with her addict/spy neighbour and the biker and the scene in the hospital have an interesting undercurrent - at that point, he was spying for Killgrave already. In the first scene, Jessica defends him, and in the second, Jessica uses him for her own gain. Jessica is ashamed of the second time, but she is not aware that he has every reason to feel ashamed about something, too...


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## Mark CMG (Dec 1, 2015)

A little choppy in the second half, IMO.  The female twin character doesn't play very believably despite being very good in early episodes.  So, too, the actor playing Simpson does a good job while controlled then when repentant but after visiting the doctor feels poorly portrayed.  The rest of the acting is solid throughout.  It might be that the direction wasn't handled well but those two characters have fairly significant series arcs and can break the tone for an episode if mishandled.


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## Tonguez (Dec 1, 2015)

Mark CMG said:


> A little choppy in the second half, IMO.  The female twin character doesn't play very believably despite being very good in early episodes.  So, too, the actor playing Simpson does a good job while controlled then when repentant but after visiting the doctor feels poorly portrayed.  The rest of the acting is solid throughout.  It might be that the direction wasn't handled well but those two characters have fairly significant series arcs and can break the tone for an episode if mishandled.




I didn't mind Robin, her character was suppose to be erratic and off putting and her sane moments interacting with Malcolm worked to earn a bit of sympathy. There is also some online speculation that she is being set up to be a future antagonist and possibly even Typhoid Mary, I'm not convinced of that but we'll wait and see. 
I agree that Simpsons second half was patchy and did threaten to break the tone of the show. But I just put that down to being comic book 'going crazy'. Moreover the mystery set up with IGH and Koslov is something I really hope gets explored in future - hopefully in the Luke Cage series


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## Cergorach (Dec 1, 2015)

I watched the series in a day and a half when it came out. Honestly, I was unfamiliar with Jessica Jones the character, and I had hoped for 'more'. It wasn't bad, but I didn't think it was good either when compared to Daredevil. I even enjoy the other Marvel TV series more (Agents + Carter)...

I don't know exactly what was the 'problem', can't really put my finger on it. Something I did like was David Tennant (aka. one of the Good Doctors). Maybe it felt to much like a police procedural, maybe I just didn't like the Jessica Jones character as portrayed here.


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## Morrus (Dec 1, 2015)

I'm confused. I watched the whole thing. I don't recall any twins. Who was that?

Oh, was that the people in the flat upstairs?


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## Cergorach (Dec 1, 2015)

Morrus said:


> Oh, was that the people in the flat upstairs?



Yep, those two nutcases. The 'male' even starts explaining it to her during one scene. Completely meh characters imho...


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## Mark CMG (Dec 2, 2015)

Morrus said:


> I'm confused. I watched the whole thing. I don't recall any twins. Who was that?
> 
> Oh, was that the people in the flat upstairs?





Yup.  I liked her in the end.  It seems to take a certain depth of actor to play "Ophelia" and perhaps requires a particularly insightful director for such a character to work within a story.  I think one danger is the character stealing focus, upstaging others, if it is a particularly strong performance in a minor role and the main cast isn't up to being challenged.  I don't feel that happened here.  This may have been the kind of danger where it wasn't realized early enough that scenes where this character breaks could stick out like a sore thumb if not written carefully for the overall tone of the series, if not cast with a strong enough actor, or if the scenes weren't given enough time and care by the director in preparation of filming them and during the process.  As I say, the actor or the writing of the character brought me back around by the end, perhaps with her last line in the series, but those "mental break" scenes after her loss just played hollow and made the tension building up in the later half of the series arc less powerful for me.


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## Janx (Dec 4, 2015)

I liked it.  Wasn't familiar with Defenders or Jessica Jones.

Like DD though, JJ felt like too many episodes to get to the resolution. Especially for as many times as she captured MurderCorpse and he got away.

That could have been trimmed up a bit...

I assume IGH will be the topic of the 2nd season.

At the pace they are going though, it's going to be 2018 or later before we get to the team up series.  That's too slow, and these actors are going to be busy/move on or have risk of real life drama when they spread things out across years.


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## City of Mist (Feb 3, 2016)

I thought this show was very very good, even though I enjoyed DD even more. What I liked about both was the investigative slant and the downplay of super-powers, making them more an everyday reality than energy blasts and battle-suits. Both shows were an inspiration to my super-powered investigation game, City of Myst.


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## Derren (Mar 9, 2018)

Watched about half of JJ season 2.
A strong start but loses in the middle as the main plot gets more and more replaced by each characters personal problems. By now I mainly watch to see if the symbolism hints are a red herring or not.

The massive disconnect with the cinema part of the universe (Sakovia Accords) are sadly still there.


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## Raunalyn (Mar 9, 2018)

Derren said:


> Watched about half of JJ season 2.
> A strong start but loses in the middle as the main plot gets more and more replaced by each characters personal problems. By now I mainly watch to see if the symbolism hints are a red herring or not.
> 
> The massive disconnect with the cinema part of the universe (Sakovia Accords) are sadly still there.




Ditto...I'm about 4 episodes in.

I thought that they were a little heavy handed with the fore-shadowing for the "villain." I also find it a bit funnier than the first season, but maybe that's just my appreciation for black humor.


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## Derren (Mar 9, 2018)

Raunalyn said:


> Ditto...I'm about 4 episodes in.
> 
> I thought that they were a little heavy handed with the fore-shadowing for the "villain." I also find it a bit funnier than the first season, but maybe that's just my appreciation for black humor.



It is more funny in the beginning (Whizzer) but that also drops off in the middle.

Spoiler up to Episode 8
[sblock]
And apparently they do their famous last minute villain switch, becuase that worked so well in the past /sarcasm.

Although I am not 100% positive on it as I had to stop watching at that point. But currently I am left wondering if there even is a villain and what the entire point of the season even was. But I still have a few episodes to go and I hope that the symbolism, especially on the coffee mug, had any meaning.[/sblock]


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## Kramodlog (Mar 9, 2018)

I'm pretty Disney is letting the quality of it's Defenders shows on Netflix go downhill because it is starting its own streaming service. Ever since Luke Cage the quality wasn't there. Iron Fist was laughable. DD season was about stalling. The Punisher and the Defenders just didn't deliver.

From the critics I've read, JJ season two is about more stalling.


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## Derren (Mar 9, 2018)

Finished JJ season 2 and oh my god was that boring.
Not only were the symbols a red herring, the show did not even recover and instead it kept going downhill so that at the end it was basically at sitcom level where everyone run around like headless chickens and did stupid things and then had long dialogues about the stupid things they did.
I am sure someone will come out and praise the show for character growth and some metaphysical representation of whatever but as a superhero or even just as a crime series it was just yawn.


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## Tonguez (Mar 11, 2018)

Derren said:


> Watched about half of JJ season 2.
> A strong start but loses in the middle as the main plot gets more and more replaced by each characters personal problems. By now I mainly watch to see if the symbolism hints are a red herring or not.
> 
> The massive disconnect with the cinema part of the universe (Sakovia Accords) are sadly still there.




how is there a disconnect? Jessica makes a passing comment that "we prefer the term gifted" which may be a reference to SHIELDS Index of Gifted Individuals. I'm happy to assume that following Defenders JJ and others were picked up and processed off camera and are now on the watchlist.
Theres also the direct link of The Raft.

but yeah while I liked the detective noir angle and wasnt utterly bored by the story (as I was with Iron Fist), JJ2 just never quite sparked into anything really compelling. I assume there is an audience for this material but I am not the target audience.


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## Derren (Mar 11, 2018)

Tonguez said:


> how is there a disconnect? Jessica makes a passing comment that "we prefer the term gifted" which may be a reference to SHIELDS Index of Gifted Individuals. I'm happy to assume that following Defenders JJ and others were picked up and processed off camera and are now on the watchlist.
> Theres also the direct link of The Raft.
> 
> but yeah while I liked the detective noir angle and wasnt utterly bored by the story (as I was with Iron Fist), JJ2 just never quite sparked into anything really compelling. I assume there is an audience for this material but I am not the target audience.




Because under the Accords Jessica would hardly gotten away with all what she did. Ans also the response to a superpowered threat would have been a bit bigger than just the local cops.


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## Skepticultist (Mar 11, 2018)

Derren said:


> Because under the Accords Jessica would hardly gotten away with all what she did. Ans also the response to a superpowered threat would have been a bit bigger than just the local cops.




I don't think we really know enough about Sokovia Accords to make statements like that.  You seem to be assuming that the Accords are identical to the Superhuman Registration Act from the comics, but they don't seem to be nearly that sweeping.  It affects the Avengers, and on Agents of SHIELD Talbot dresses down Coulson for having "unregistered assets" but in both cases, we're talking about superhumans engaged in matters of international security.  Superhumans who ignore international boundaries and operate beyond the reach of domestic police forces.  

Superhumans who do not operate at the international level would not be affected by the Sokovia Accords.  They'd be a domestic issue, handled under domestic laws.  Since Jessica operates entirely within New York, the Sokovia Accords almost certainly don't apply to her.  If they did, they would have to apply _everywhere_ in the world, all at once.  That would require a _massive_ international organization, far beyond the capabilities of the United Nations.  It would require an organization like SHIELD, but SHIELD is gone (at least SHIELD as it once was, Coulson has repeatedly noted that they no longer have the resources they once had).



I have finished all of Season 2 of Jessica Jones, and I liked it quite a bit. Like the first season, the second season had clear themes and I feel did a better job of exploring them through the subplots of each of the characters. It is a slow burn, but I think that fits the character and mood the show is trying to create, and the themes it is exploring -- I don't think you can tell a story about trauma and addiction and also have break-neck pacing.  I think it would be too dark, too mellodramtic.  These kind of heavy themes need time to gestate.

Despite the slow, intentional pacing, none of the episodes felt like padding to make up for a thin story (a major flaw of Season 1).  Season 2 also benefited from not having any characters as annoying or nonsensical as Ophelia (the insane twin from upstairs).

What I really think makes Season 2 fascinating is its lack of any clear villain, which I think is both very appropriate for a show about a woman who isn't clearly a hero, and also a very smart move given how powerful the villain of Season 1 was.  Topping Tennant's Kilgrave would have been a nearly impossible task, and Season 2 cleverly avoided that issue by giving us two "villains" who are extremely sympathetic and lack malicious intent.  Alisa Jones isn't evil, she's suffering from brain damage and can't control her actions.  Karl Malus isn't evil, he genuinely is trying to save lives and keep things from spinning out of control.  In the end, the story becomes about Jessica trying and failing to save her mother from herself, but coming to question her own purpose.

By subverting the traditional *This Season's Big Bad* story structure that has become the defining trait of superhero TV ever since _Buffy The Vampire Slayer_, Season 2 managed to tell a new and different kind of superhero story that was quite refreshing.  

And now, nerd stuff:


I was disappointed by the death of Will "Nuke" Simpson.  After Charlie Cox revealed that Daredevil S3 would be based on the _Born Again_ storyline, I had hoped that they might use there in some way as a reference to Nuke's appearance in that comic.
While Trish's storyline is very different than her comic storyline, I really like that they've been building her up as a wanna-be superhero and have now given her superpowers.  I'm really looking forward to an appearance by Hellcat in season 3 (and don't think I didn't catch that she scratched the face of that gay-basher who attacked Malcolm, nice little call out).
The Whizzer.    Oh lord, I never thought in a million years I'd see any version of The Whizzer in the MCU, and this version was _perfect_.  Sometimes the MCU, and especially the TV show, wastes good characters on throwaway parts and it annoys me, but it's not like they were ever going to use The Whizzer in a serious way, not with that name.


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## Tonguez (Mar 11, 2018)

Miles Adams said:


> What I really think makes Season 2 fascinating is its lack of any clear villain, which I think is both very appropriate for a show about a woman who isn't clearly a hero, and also a very smart move given how powerful the villain of Season 1 was.
> 
> By subverting the traditional *This Season's Big Bad* story structure that has become the defining trait of superhero TV ever since _Buffy The Vampire Slayer_, Season 2 managed to tell a new and different kind of superhero story that was quite refreshing.




I fully agree. By taking out the villain v hero dynamic, they allowed this to be more of a character study and focus on the character dynamics. Notably I can't recall any previous instance of a superpowered Mother and Daughter relationship being explored (the dysfunction made interesting). 


I'm not sure what I felt about Jeryn Hogarths storyline, though seeing how Malcolm picked it up at the end did give it a satisfying outcome. The Trish story seemed a bit messy, but good fan service given that everyone has wanted to know if Hellcat would ever show up. I too was sad to see Nuke killed off so soon though. Having him along for the ride would have been great especially as we still don't known who IGH (the people funding the research) really are. 

As for padding what was the point of Griffin? Such a big player in the first few episodes but then disappears completely? I was sure he was going to be a bad guy, but ends up being meh.




> I don't think we really know enough about Sokovia Accords to make statements like that.  You seem to be assuming that the Accords are identical to the Superhuman Registration Act from the comics, but they don't seem to be nearly that sweeping.  It affects the Avengers, and on Agents of SHIELD Talbot dresses down Coulson for having "unregistered assets" but in both cases, we're talking about superhumans engaged in matters of international security.  Superhumans who ignore international boundaries and operate beyond the reach of domestic police forces.




I do wonder if the Powers and Special Protocols mentioned when Alisa is in jail are a result of the Sokovia Accords though, they allow suspension of civil rights and incarceration in the RAFT at least.  
But yeah as I stated earlier I'm happy to assume that Jessica is on the SHEILD Index and don't think she did anything (provable) that would get her picked up. She was the victim in Alisa's escape to Canada and none of the killings can be pinned on her directly. Plus from what we've seen of SHEILDS operations, they have a degree of incompetence and if she gets a sympathetic caseworker (like Coulson) she might get a lot of slack given to her. 
That said in the last episode when Jessica spots the black SUVs, I immediately thought "cool they have got SHIELD in to chase them." In my mind even though the team claimed to be NYPD rather than SHIELD that was just keep everyone from panicking more than usual  Indeed I'd even go to the extent of imagining that DeCosta is a SHIELD agent put in place to monitor Jessica while posing as a police detective P).


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Mar 12, 2018)

I really enjoyed it, I loved all the character arcs and character development. It was difficult to predict how the story would unfold and what exactly would happen - despite the show being a slow burn. I still think I prefer the first season, simply because Kilgrave was such a great, memorable villain. But I think it was a great move to not just bring in the next big bad and just go from there. 

It was also nice to see Leoben again. 



Kramodlog said:


> I'm pretty Disney is letting the quality of it's Defenders shows on Netflix go downhill because it is starting its own streaming service. Ever since Luke Cage the quality wasn't there. Iron Fist was laughable. DD season was about stalling. The Punisher and the Defenders just didn't deliver.
> 
> From the critics I've read, JJ season two is about more stalling.



I read somewhere that there was a certain budget allotted to the first Marvel Netflix shows, and the last ones basically had to be done with a lower budget. Which explains why they brought in people that are known to stay on or under budget and on time, but with the drawback of often not delivering the highest quality. (But that might be just a consequence of staying under budget and not necessarily talent - if you need to keep the number of rewrites, extra takes and reshoots down to control the cost, it is difficult to get everything right.)


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## Kramodlog (Mar 13, 2018)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> I read somewhere that there was a certain budget allotted to the first Marvel Netflix shows, and the last ones basically had to be done with a lower budget. Which explains why they brought in people that are known to stay on or under budget and on time, but with the drawback of often not delivering the highest quality. (But that might be just a consequence of staying under budget and not necessarily talent - if you need to keep the number of rewrites, extra takes and reshoots down to control the cost, it is difficult to get everything right.)



It is a possible explanation, but if you have strong scenario to start with it shouldn't affect the quality of the story. If you also have a Kevin Feige like long term story planned, it helsp too.

Ever since DD season 2, it has been explicite that they do not know where to take the story of the Defenders and its parts. Nothing much is gonna come out of the Hand.


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## Skepticultist (Mar 13, 2018)

Not technically Jessica Jones related, but Iron Fist season 2 will be replacing Scott Buck as the showrunner.  Buck was responsible for both Iron Fist and Inhumans, the two most thoroughly panned projects Marvel Studios has put out yet, so its no surprise he's out.  He's being replaced by Raven Metzner, the showrunner for _Falling Skies_ and _Sleepy Hollow_ and writer of 2005's _Elektra_.  That's not exactly the best resume, but supposedly Metzner is a huge fan of martial arts films so maybe it'll be good.  At the very least, it has to be better.


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## RangerWickett (Mar 13, 2018)

Hm. If I were put in charge of 'Phase Two' of The Defenders, I'd have the following goals:

* Make Danny Rand likeable and actually good at martial arts.
* Make him stop being rich so he and Luke Cage need to be Heroes for Hire.
* Get a healthy romance between Luke and Jessica.
* Get Daredevil an excuse to retire with a bittersweet happy ending.

I'd actually be thrilled if Kingpin could be the big bad. He comes back into power during DD season 3, then in Defenders season 2 has some nasty plot that involves an 'evil super' team that pins crimes on Luke Cage and Danny Rand. Jessica Jones could use her investigating skills to find out what's up, and Murdock could lawyer and defend the Heroes for Hire. Then somehow you get a big fight at the end with a strong emotional component, as opposed to just punching ninjas who are suffering from the Law of Conservation of Ninjutsu.


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## RangerWickett (Mar 13, 2018)

Oh, and I liked JJ season 2. I once again think shaving off a few episodes and tightening the pacing would have been good, as with ALL Netflix Marvel shows, but I liked the character drama of it.


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## Tonguez (Mar 14, 2018)

RangerWickett said:


> Hm. If I were put in charge of 'Phase Two' of The Defenders, I'd have the following goals:
> 
> * Make Danny Rand likeable and actually good at martial arts.
> * Make him stop being rich so he and Luke Cage need to be Heroes for Hire.
> ...




Yep gotta agree.

In Defenders I had hoped that Alexandra was going to be introducing a Ma Gnucci like figure to provide a direct rival to Kingpin and open up the whole Maggia syndicates side of Marvel, alas that was not the case and we ended up with something half assed and unsatisfying.

The showrunners either need to put the Kingpin at the center and focus the Netflix shows on the gritty criminal underbelly of the MCU or they need to embrace the Martial Arts weirdness of Iron Fist, DD and the Hand and actually let us actually travel to the Seven Cities of Heaven so the heroes can fight a live Dragon


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## Skepticultist (Mar 14, 2018)

Krysten Ritter has said there is no plans for a Defenders 2, and I believe her.  The first one got very lackluster results, and I think the various stars and showrunners don't want to waste time on a second series when it means delaying their own individual series.

That said, if they do a Defenders S2, I'd go with *Silvermane* as the villain and introduce the *Maggia* (Marvel's version of the Mafia).  At the beginning of the series, the following is true: 

Wilson Fisk is either in jail again, or has fled the country following the events of Daredevil S3.
The younger crimelords who would fill in the void left by Fisk have all been murdered by the Punisher.
The various crime families are in disarray, lacking leadership and direction.

An aged, long-retired crime boss sees this situation and finds it intolerable.  He wants back in the game.  His name is SILVIO MANFREDI, and once upon a time he and the Maggia ruled New York.  Grown soft with power, weakened by FBI harassment, the Maggia were pushed out of New York by Fisk (as explained in DD S1 by Silvio to Ben Urich, who was supposed to be a nod to Silvermane, but there can be more than one Silvio), but now Manfredi sees a chance to return.  And he realizes that what he needs to take over New York again is not just gangsters, but SUPER gangsters.

He captures DR. KARL MALUS, still on the run from the Feds, and forces him to create a legion of supervillain henchmen for him.  Manfredi presents Malus with two of his top guys:  JOSEPH LORENZINI and LONNIE LINCOLN.  Malus performs his experimental procedures on them, and both are granted superhuman strength and durability, though Lincoln's skin becomes chalk-white as part of the procedure, an adverse reaction.  He ends up calling himself TOMBSTONE because he looks like he just crawled out a grave.

Early in the series, Lorenzini confronts Luke Cage, the two fight, and Luke ends up giving Lorenzini a headbutt that cracks his skull and nearly kills him.  Malus is able to save him by installing a heavy steel plate in his head, turning him into HAMMERHEAD.  In their second battle, HAMMERHEAD returns the headbutt, nearly killing Luke.  Even a super-punch to the head from Iron Fist can't slow this guy down.

We don't see Manfredi become SILVERMANE until the final episode, when he undergoes the process himself, nearly dies, and is saved at the last minute by "Deathlok" cybernetic enhancements bought/stolen from CYBER-TECH (nice little AOS tie-in there).


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## wicked cool (Mar 19, 2018)

Going to disagree with most of you on this show

*the entire season has been depressing/boring and a drastic departure from the first season. The characters had had very little hangover from season 1 villain. Its true they all have issues but they had them previously (seen in Jessicas ATM flashback). the completion detective wants to kill her (hes living well and Jessica lives in a dump) because shes his competition? 1 or 2 episodes dedicated to the hangover and the problems but this doesn't make a good show 
*This isn't even the best show on Netflix. I couldn't recommend this over  seven seconds,  Ozark or other superhero shows such as Daredevil or punisher. Jessica is a great character but the "mommy dearest" and we all have lives problems isn't done  as well as say "This is Us"   
*you can feel the budget constraints on this show compared to Daredevil and Punisher.


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## Hussar (Mar 25, 2018)

Just finished watching it.  I liked it.  It was interesting, kept me coming back and much more about the characters than most of the other super hero fare.

Then again, above it's mentioned that The Inhumans is a terribly panned show.  I've only seen the first three episodes, but, again, I didn't think it was too bad.  Maybe my standards are just really low.


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