# The End of Angel



## Umbran (Feb 14, 2004)

This WB Press Release pretty much says it all.  This is the final season of Angel.  There are some options for a TV movie or the like, but the show as we know it will end.


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## Wrath of the Swarm (Feb 14, 2004)

Why?  It's the second-highest-show in their key demographic, for crying out loud.

Are they trying to completely reinvent themselves as the teen soap opera channel or something?

Sheesh, this is gonna kill Whedon.  At least he has the Firefly movie.


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## Crothian (Feb 14, 2004)

No big suprise there.  I'm more worried if this will have an effect on the RPG more then then anything


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## LightPhoenix (Feb 14, 2004)

I wish I could say it was a surprise, but given that it was almost cancelled last season, along with the new show direction, things pretty much pointed at WB demanding higher numbers from the show... which evidently weren't good enough for them.

Things like these are why I think network executives are twits (replace with random obscene phrase of choice).


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## Nightfall (Feb 14, 2004)

Not surprised in the least. They'll let Charmed stay on for as long as men can get boobage, but give them a show that actually DOES something, they'll toss it out in a heart beat. Oh well. Such is life.


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## LrdApoc (Feb 14, 2004)

Wish i could say i was shocked.. I am getting used to not watching much American TV anymore anyway.. looks like BBC America is providing some of the best shows since Fox, UPN  and WB shows that cater to my interests either don't last or drop off quality wise. 

Don't be suprised if Angel is replaced with something like "Amish in the Big City" or some other stupid reality show.


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## Truth Seeker (Feb 14, 2004)

Umbran said:
			
		

> This WB Press Release pretty much says it all. This is the final season of Angel. There are some options for a TV movie or the like, but the show as we know it will end.



Well...it will be one less channel to watch.


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## CCamfield (Feb 14, 2004)

I have to admit that I think this sucks.  And I don't really have a clue what I will watch next season.  Maybe by then I'll be able to afford some boxed sets and rewatch Farscape an episode a week or something.


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## Tarrasque Wrangler (Feb 14, 2004)

Truth Seeker said:
			
		

> Well...it will be one less channel to watch.



 Yeah, wow ... I used to watch so much WB it wasn't even funny ... Buffy, Angel, I even liked soap opera-y crap like Dawson's Creek and Felicity.  Now there's nothing to watch.  

 That's going to knock me down to just Thursdays for appointment television from now on.  All for the best, I guess.  I will miss Angel and company a lot though; they grew on me as much as Buffy and the Scoobies did.


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## Krieg (Feb 14, 2004)

LrdApoc said:
			
		

> Don't be suprised if Angel is replaced with something like "Amish in the Big City" or some other stupid reality show.




Nah, PBS has already done it... 

1900 House


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## jdavis (Feb 14, 2004)

At least they had enough class to let them finish on their own terms (unlike Sci Fi channel did with Farscape). I got a feeling there will be more from Whedon on the WB in the future.


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## danzig138 (Feb 14, 2004)

Dang. That will just leave me with Smallville and Smackdown. To much free time...


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## John Crichton (Feb 14, 2004)

This doesn't mean that another network can't pick it up, like what happened with Buffy on UPN.  I don't think this is the end of Angel as a regular show.  Wishful thinking?  Yeah, a bit.

I am a little surprised.  Seemed like the Smallville/Angel combo was working well.  *sigh*


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## stevelabny (Feb 14, 2004)

yeah, i too remember the "glory days" of the wb when i would watch just about anything they served up. alas, it will be coming to an end. with angel off the wed schedule, there is no reason to force myself to sit through smallville.  gilmore girls is also losing its charm. 
with the lack of good tv ANYWHERE, i'll be down to survivor, sports, and DVDs.

time to rewatch Twin Peaks and Gargoyles and Buffy and scrounge up full sets of the Tick cartoon, Freakazoid, X-Men and Animaniacs.


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## Hand of Evil (Feb 14, 2004)

Expected to.  I guess we will see a Spike spin-off down the line.


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## LrdApoc (Feb 14, 2004)

Krieg said:
			
		

> Nah, PBS has already done it...
> 
> 1900 House




Actually this takes a different approach.. they put Amish kids in a modern setting and film them.. unfortunately I wasn't making up the concept.. it's going to be on WB.


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## Sir Whiskers (Feb 14, 2004)

Just to take a contrary approach, this might be good for Whedon. I strongly feel that Buffy lasted two more seasons than it should have, and that Angel seriously lost its way last season. While Angel is doing better (IMO) this season, I can't shake the feeling that Whedon needs a little downtime to refresh.


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## Wolf72 (Feb 14, 2004)

Sir Whiskers said:
			
		

> Just to take a contrary approach, this might be good for Whedon. I strongly feel that Buffy lasted two more seasons than it should have, and that Angel seriously lost its way last season. While Angel is doing better (IMO) this season, I can't shake the feeling that Whedon needs a little downtime to refresh.




as long as he comes up with something else for us to watch!

... well okay, I guess he can take a few weeks off


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## Welverin (Feb 14, 2004)

stevelabny said:
			
		

> time to rewatch Twin Peaks and Gargoyles and Buffy and scrounge up full sets of the Tick cartoon, Freakazoid, X-Men and Animaniacs.




Is this just wishful thinking on your part or do you know something I don't about Freakazoid! and Animaniacs?


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## stevelabny (Feb 14, 2004)

last i checked, animaniacs is one of the shows that theyre thinking about releasing on DVD. (don't remember which websiute i found the info on, theres a few DVD sites i go to occasionally) 
At this point you can probably assume that any sucessful show WILL be released on DVD

I also know that freakazoid,and the x-men and tick cartoon shave made rounds on ebay and other file-sharing services if i got real desperate to see them before DVDs come out.

but basically, if u want something on tape, you can find it. a few birthdays ago, my gf found a complete run of gargoyles on vhs in order. not something you cna buy in stores. (although its another series with rumored dvd treatment upcoming.


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## Jamdin (Feb 14, 2004)

I am not surprised after the demise of "Buffy." However, I would have liked to have seen "Angel" and the new "Dark Shadows" back to back. It would have been cool to have the original vamp hunk, Barnabas, and the new vamp hunks, Angel and Spike, on the same night.


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## Endur (Feb 14, 2004)

With Buffy off the air, it makes sense that Angel would also end.


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## Wombat (Feb 14, 2004)

And the reason Joss' show is being cancelled is...

...Joss.

He has constantly quarrelled with executives, crew, and stars, publically and privately, brooking no disagreement.  Despite the fact that _Angel_ has been losing viewers dramatically in the last two seasons, he has been demanding more money.  He has dissed Sarah Michelle Gellar and Charity Carpenter (the latter over her temerity to become pregnant before he had written that into his script), and has constantly hassled those who work with him.

Overall he has proven himself to be selfish, self-centered, inflexible, and a general pain to work with.  

Yes, BtVS was a fun show.  This does not make him the Supreme Being, however, and he refused to ever acknowledge this.

Joss has lost his show because he has the magic ability to cheese everyone off.


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## LightPhoenix (Feb 14, 2004)

Wombat said:
			
		

> And the reason Joss' show is being cancelled is...
> 
> ...Joss.
> 
> ...



Seeing as how you can't even get one of the actress's names right (Charisma Carpenter), I'm wondering why exactly we should take your version as truth.

Besides which, I'm sure a lot of this image you posit is born out of the _need_ to fight executives and their constant attempts to intrude upon shows.


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## Vocenoctum (Feb 15, 2004)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> Seeing as how you can't even get one of the actress's names right (Charisma Carpenter), I'm wondering why exactly we should take your version as truth.
> 
> Besides which, I'm sure a lot of this image you posit is born out of the _need_ to fight executives and their constant attempts to intrude upon shows.




While all of what he said isn't established fact, I do think there's something there. Changes in writing and plot have been pretty obvious in both shows, and at times the only excuse for glaring plot holes is "trust in Joss". Joss Whedon's just a guy, and some of the antic's and blame games really do make for a bad environment.

There are plenty of series that manage to work with the system and still stay fresh, but I think Whedon is a victim of his own success. Buffy's move to Fox, Firefly cancelation, etc. From the numbers I've seen, Tru Calling probably isn't getting anywhere near Firefly's numbers, but they renewed it, most likely due to lower budget and easier management.


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## Ranger REG (Feb 15, 2004)

Wombat said:
			
		

> And the reason Joss' show is being cancelled is...
> 
> ...Joss.
> 
> ...



Perhaps. While I cannot understand why Joss chose to lose two good characters (Cordelia and Connor) and then make Angel & Co. fighting the good fight, utilizing resources from an evil corporation that is Wolfram & Hart, I'd be more afraid of network "suit" trying to tell him what to do.

After all, meddling by network "suits" usually results in cancellation. It happened with _Babylon 5_ and their spin-offs, and it did _Star Trek: The Original Series_ in after only three seasons.

If anyone who remembered _Firefly,_ a FOX sci-fi series by Joss, it too was short-lived because of network meddling.


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## Umbran (Feb 15, 2004)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> From the numbers I've seen, Tru Calling probably isn't getting anywhere near Firefly's numbers, but they renewed it, most likely due to lower budget and easier management.




There is no real need to speculate on difficulty with management when the numbers are sufficient.  

Yes, Tru Calling has lesser numbers.  But Tru Calling has almost exactly zero in terms of special effects.  It's basically a small-cast drama.  Nice and cheap.  You don't need high ratings to support cheap.  Firefly had lots of effects and CGI shots. Very expensive.  You need big numbers to support expensive.

The main argument against it being personality issues is pretty simple - Joss has managed to have the two shows running for a long time now. He managed over seven years, and only now the personality issue is so bad that it gets things cancelled?  That doesn't sound terribly plausible.


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## Vocenoctum (Feb 15, 2004)

Umbran said:
			
		

> The main argument against it being personality issues is pretty simple - Joss has managed to have the two shows running for a long time now. He managed over seven years, and only now the personality issue is so bad that it gets things cancelled?  That doesn't sound terribly plausible.




Simply that a successful show will let them gloss over any difficulties. When the show starts winding down, there's a problem. It may even just be a 5 season rule for them, since that's what Buffy went through before moving to Fox. 

Besides, I said Tru Calling had a lower budget in the very portion you quoted. 

Given Buffy & Angel's success, I'd think they'd have given Firefly a longer chance than they did, so I think there was more than just a budget to it. Canceling it before it has a chance to recoup the money you've invested in it is harsh.

If it was all teh budgetary reasoning, they could have just told Whedon to cut back on the effects and use more stock footage already shot. He'd most likely have said no and the show would have gone off the air anyway, but there's the option.

But, I only watched one episode, couldn't stand to watch more, so I can't say what the truth of the matter is, just discussing it on a discussion forum.


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## Staffan (Feb 16, 2004)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> Perhaps. While I cannot understand why Joss chose to lose two good characters (Cordelia and Connor) and then make Angel & Co. fighting the good fight, utilizing resources from an evil corporation that is Wolfram & Hart, I'd be more afraid of network "suit" trying to tell him what to do.



From what I understand, Charisma left because her option was up, and she didn't want to be on the show anymore (commonly, actors are optioned for shows for seven years. After that time, the studio needs to renegotiate. That's why Terry Farrell left DS9 after seven years.), and possibly due to personal differences between her and Joss. I bet that in a Perfect World according to Joss, she would have remained on the show (and wouldn't have gotten pregnant). As for Connor, let's just say he's not exactly my favorite character on the show...



> After all, meddling by network "suits" usually results in cancellation. It happened with _Babylon 5_ and their spin-offs, and it did _Star Trek: The Original Series_ in after only three seasons.



Babylon 5 was not cancelled due to meddling by network suits, though it did come close. It was always planned to run five years. JMS said so pretty much from day one.


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## Michael Tree (Feb 16, 2004)

Staffan said:
			
		

> From what I understand, Charisma left because her option was up, and she didn't want to be on the show anymore
> [Snip]
> As for Connor, let's just say he's not exactly my favorite character on the show...
> 
> Babylon 5 was not cancelled due to meddling by network suits, though it did come close. It was always planned to run five years. JMS said so pretty much from day one.



The suits were threatening to cancel Babylon 5 during its third and fourth season, causing JMS to accelerate the main storyline in order to finish it by the end of season 4, which no doubt is part of the reason why season 5 was a bit lackluster.

As for Connor... Joss has always been very good about listening to what his fans like and dislike.   And Charisma's decision no doubt had something to do with her having a new baby to raise.


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## Vocenoctum (Feb 16, 2004)

Staffan said:
			
		

> From what I understand, Charisma left because her option was up, and she didn't want to be on the show anymore (commonly, actors are optioned for shows for seven years. After that time, the studio needs to renegotiate. That's why Terry Farrell left DS9 after seven years.), and possibly due to personal differences between her and Joss. I bet that in a Perfect World according to Joss, she would have remained on the show (and wouldn't have gotten pregnant).




Actually, in an interview, Charisma basically said she was fired, without notice. Something on the order of no one calling her, and when she called she found out she didn't work there anymore.

I didn't find the interview on a quick search, but this one doesn't paint a carefree picture;
http://theedge.bostonherald.com/tvNews/edgeTV.bg?articleid=14&format=


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## John Crichton (Feb 16, 2004)

I wanted to share. This was posted by Joss Whedon from the www.bronzebeta.com boards...







> "Some of you may have heard the hilarious news. I thought this would be a good time to weigh in. to answer some obvious questions:
> 
> No, we had no idea this was coming.
> 
> ...



http://www.bronzebeta.com/Archive/BronzeArchive1076801504.htm


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## Cthulhu's Librarian (Feb 16, 2004)

Well, I guess I'll be going back to no TV after this season. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Not that I wasn't expecting this, but it is kind of sad. I really liked both BtVS and Angel.


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## Henry (Feb 16, 2004)

For all the talk of lackluster ratings, and people talking about how the show was getting worse, in my eyes it was still like the choice of 

1) Watching an all-star player batting .750 instead of the normal .1000 he enjoys, and 

2) Watching a rookie bat about a .050

In other words, compared to the other material to watch in those time slots, it was head and shoulders above any reality-based garbage currently available. What, for the love of Joss, is out there better to watch? _My Fat Obnoxious Fiance? The Apprentice? The Restaurant? Skanks on the Farm? Survivor: All-Geezer Edition? The O.C. 90210? Everwouldn't? One Trick Hill?_

So far, all I have left is the CSI's (which don't always entertain me from week to week), Tru Calling (which can't even keep me for one show a month), Smallville (the only thing that's consistently holding my interest), Monk (which is a good show, but too few of them), and the various documentaries of Discovery and History Channels, and Mythbusters.

If the best show on TV is a show about debunking urban myths, something is SERIOUSLY wrong.


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## dravot (Feb 16, 2004)

Yeah, I'm rather bummed out as well.

 I'm down to the Simpsons, and Gilmore Girls after this (and occasional episodes of Queer Eye, MonsterHouse and Mythbusters).

 OTOH, less teevee is prolly good for me.


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## Kahuna Burger (Feb 16, 2004)

As a random comment, this:


> I've never made mainstream TV very well. I like surprises, and TV isn't about surprises, unless the surprise is who gets voted off of something. I've been lucky to sneak this strange, strange show over the airwaves for as long as I have. I don't FEEL lucky, but I understand that I am.



just kinda bugs the hell out of me... It really loses my sympathy when a writer, director whatever gets all "I was just too cool for them and they couldn't handle me". I considered Buffy and Angel to BE "mainstream TV", and they rose and fell as mainstream shows as far as I'm concerned. Good shows, sure. But just TV shows, produced for the television audience, like every other TV show... I felt sorry for Joss until I read that but all I can think when I read that sort of "They just can't get my brillience" crap is Get Over Yourself!

That aside, I'll be sorry to lose my Spike time, but I watch too much TV anyway, so its all for the best. It was a cool mythos, but maybe it will continue to evolve through novels and the RPGs. Much like star trek, third party stories within the angel/buffy-verse could fill the gap and make it a part of pop culture long after the initial run of a series.

Kahuna burger


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## Cthulhu's Librarian (Feb 16, 2004)

Kahuna Burger said:
			
		

> I felt sorry for Joss until I read that but all I can think when I read that sort of "They just can't get my brillience" crap is Get Over Yourself!



  Whenever I hear Joss say something about how cool or brilliant he is, I can't help thinking "Dude, you're the guy who wrote _Alien: Resurrection_..." I loved _Buffy_ and _Angel_, and will miss them, but come on, in the end they are just TV shows. Great TV shows, but TV nonetheless.


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## Kesh (Feb 16, 2004)

From the sound of it, I wouldn't be surprised if Whedon drops TV altogether and goes back to doing films, just out of spite.


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## Blue Prussian (Feb 16, 2004)

If you are interested, there is a petition drive going on right now:

http://www.petitiononline.com/ai5d0162/petition.html

I don't know that it will sway the WB, but there are already 26000+ signatures. I signed it just so I could protest their stupidity. If they drop the show, I guess UPN is the best possibility for keeping Angel alive. It certainly sounds like Whedon would love to find a way to keep it on the air.


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## Pielorinho (Feb 16, 2004)

Henry said:
			
		

> For all the talk of lackluster ratings, and people talking about how the show was getting worse, in my eyes it was still like the choice of
> 
> 1) Watching an all-star player batting .750 instead of the normal .1000 he enjoys, and
> 
> 2) Watching a rookie bat about a .050



While in some ways I agree with you, you're forgetting the option not to watch baseball at all .  I'm sad for Joss and the crew, but frankly happy for the show.  I love watching shows Joss writes, but am finding I don't always care for shows that Joss produces.  _Angel_ isn't holding my attention much this season, and I'd rather it end now than after two more years of limping along.

After this season, I'll probably cancel cable.  Joss is better than anything else I've seen on TV, but that says more about TV than about Joss.

Daniel


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## Jeremy (Feb 16, 2004)

Damn.  That sucks.  I loved the Smallville/Angel combo.

I hope this doesn't mean Smallville's up next...

I don't know, I like this season, it felt like Season 2 of Bab 5.  A transition into something huge.  One big set up.

Frickin hell.  There goes Angel.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Feb 16, 2004)

I think I'm the only sci-fi geek that didn't get fired up over Firefly.  Maybe I didn't watch enough episodes.


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## Harp (Feb 17, 2004)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> I think I'm the only sci-fi geek that didn't get fired up over Firefly.  Maybe I didn't watch enough episodes.



I'd submit that that may well be the case.  I enjoyed the series well enough when it was on, but it wasn't until watching the DVD set that I became such a huge fan.  I'm not sure if the DVDs are available for rent anywhere, but if so, I can't recommend a series more highly.  No question, one of my all-time favorites.

Angel, on the other hand, if it has indeed run its course, I'll miss, but not overly much.  To me it was always just good; it never struck me as having a _great_ run, like _Buffy_ did in the first three seasons.  Or like _Firefly_ did over the course of its entire too-short life.


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## Templetroll (Feb 17, 2004)

LrdApoc said:
			
		

> Actually this takes a different approach.. they put Amish kids in a modern setting and film them.. unfortunately I wasn't making up the concept.. it's going to be on WB.




Both ER and Strong Medicine have used the "Amish kids experience the big city" storyline at least once, there may be others.  I figure a scriptwriter got the idea and pitched it to several different shows and then got paid for a few of them at around the same time.


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## Vocenoctum (Feb 17, 2004)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> I think I'm the only sci-fi geek that didn't get fired up over Firefly.  Maybe I didn't watch enough episodes.




I myself couldn't sit through one ep, so there's that.


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## Crothian (Feb 17, 2004)

Templetroll said:
			
		

> Both ER and Strong Medicine have used the "Amish kids experience the big city" storyline at least once, there may be others.  I figure a scriptwriter got the idea and pitched it to several different shows and then got paid for a few of them at around the same time.




Even Nightcourt did this storyline


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## Welverin (Feb 17, 2004)

Kahuna Burger said:
			
		

> I considered Buffy and Angel to BE "mainstream TV"




No, mainstream would be your standard sitcom (Friends, Frasier, etc.), drama (NYPD Blue, ER, CSI, etc.), or reality show. Sci-fi, fantasy, shows about the supernatural are not mainstream now matter how popular they may become.

Occasionally something like the X-files transcends it's niche, but it's an up hill battle for evey similar show.


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## Endur (Feb 17, 2004)

*B5*

Yes and No.  B5's original 4th+ 5th seasons were crammed into the 4th season when they thought they were going to end.  The actual 5th season is stuff TNT picked up B5.

Personally, I think JMS could have sold B5 year 6 to TNT, but he wanted to stick to his 5 year plan and instead persuaded TNT to accept Crusade (which was a dud) instead of B5 year 6. 



			
				Staffan said:
			
		

> Babylon 5 was not cancelled due to meddling by network suits, though it did come close. It was always planned to run five years. JMS said so pretty much from day one.


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## Henry (Feb 17, 2004)

Crothian said:
			
		

> Even Nightcourt did this storyline




I've got one even older: BARNEY MILLER did the "Amish in the Big City" storyline. 


-----------

_DET. HARRIS: "TV?"
     AMISH MAN: "Not in the Bible."
    DET. HARRIS: "Automobiles?"
      AMISH MAN: "Not in the Bible."
     DET. HARRIS: "What DO you do for fun?!?!?"
       AMISH MAN: "I've got ten children." (SMILES) "THAT's in the Bible." _


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## WizarDru (Feb 17, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> Personally, I think JMS could have sold B5 year 6 to TNT, but he wanted to stick to his 5 year plan and instead persuaded TNT to accept Crusade (which was a dud) instead of B5 year 6.



Crusade is the textbook case of how meddling in a show by a network can destroy it.  When you contrast the first episode broadcast with the episode that was obviously meant to be the real first episode, it becomes clear that B5:Crusade was a good show done a great disservice.  I still mourn the lost opportunity that was Crusade.  Especially after reading the three unfilmed episode scripts that JMS released (including the season finale).



			
				Henry said:
			
		

> I've got one even older: BARNEY MILLER did the "Amish in the Big City" storyline.



Fish was Amish?!?!

Seriously, as someone who lives near the Amish, I can assure you...they're not ignorant of technology so much as they just plain reject it.  And the Mennonites don't even do that, so much.  But I trust the distortion of so-called "reality" television to misrepresent that, too.


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## Henry (Feb 17, 2004)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> Seriously, as someone who lives near the Amish, I can assure you...they're not ignorant of technology so much as they just plain reject it.  And the Mennonites don't even do that, so much.  But I trust the distortion of so-called "reality" television to misrepresent that, too.




That particular episode was a pretty good portrayal - not really negative, so much as the guy took a bus, got mugged, and they had to find a way to get him home. I seem to recall it was played more from the "homespun wisdom" angle, but it has been a while.

----------------

Alas, poor Angel - doomed to TVLand reruns in 10 years' time...  At least they're showing him on TNT now.


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## Hand of Evil (Feb 17, 2004)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> Crusade is the textbook case of how meddling in a show by a network can destroy it.  When you contrast the first episode broadcast with the episode that was obviously meant to be the real first episode, it becomes clear that B5:Crusade was a good show done a great disservice.  I still mourn the lost opportunity that was Crusade.  Especially after reading the three unfilmed episode scripts that JMS released (including the season finale).
> [\QUOTE]
> 
> I always got a kick of how TNT wanted more alien sex in Crusader, so JMS did played with it some, the hyperspace creature humping the ship.     Just glad the WCW format was not added.


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## Kahuna Burger (Feb 17, 2004)

Welverin said:
			
		

> No, mainstream would be your standard sitcom (Friends, Frasier, etc.), drama (NYPD Blue, ER, CSI, etc.), or reality show. Sci-fi, fantasy, shows about the supernatural are not mainstream now matter how popular they may become.
> 
> Occasionally something like the X-files transcends it's niche, but it's an up hill battle for evey similar show.



*shrug* your opinion, can't agree with it. EVERY show fights an uphill battle, and almost every show has some hook that seperates it from the mainstream. NYPD Blue, one of your examples, was billed as far from the mainstream when it was introduced. Law And Order, my favorite show which has run for 13 seasons now, started out as an expereiment with several ideas that put it out of the mainstream (and was sold to three networks before it was even shown once).

Buffy was a followup to a movie (a tug to the mainstream) following the adventures of a fashion consious spunky teen (mainstream) with an ensemble cast of supporting teens (mainstream) with supernatural battles (the hook). In other words, just another TV show. It showed on network TV, it's star was made fun of in the onion, it's 6th season was advertised on the side of MBTA busses in boston. It was mainstream TV. Its spinoff was, well, a mainstream spinoff - with a hook! hey, everything has to have a hook! 

And, lets face it, everything eventually goes off the air. But when you're looking for the reason that your show went off the air, I guess "they just couldn't handle its non mainstream themes which only appeal to people as cool and enlightened as me" makes us all feel better about losing a show we liked than "it hit a slump and wasn't what the execs needed."     (hey, it definitly made people feel better about crusade!)

Kahuna Burger


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## LightPhoenix (Feb 17, 2004)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> Crusade is the textbook case of how meddling in a show by a network can destroy it.



Just to throw in my opinion, I think a better textbook case would be The Invisible Man (the SFC version).  Great first season, terrible second before it was canned.


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## WizarDru (Feb 17, 2004)

Kahuna Burger said:
			
		

> *shrug* your opinion, can't agree with it. EVERY show fights an uphill battle, and almost every show has some hook that seperates it from the mainstream. NYPD Blue, one of your examples, was billed as far from the mainstream when it was introduced. Law And Order, my favorite show which has run for 13 seasons now, started out as an expereiment with several ideas that put it out of the mainstream (and was sold to three networks before it was even shown once).



Some shows are much less mainstream than others.  "Everybody loves Raymond", "The King of Queens", and "Reba" are all about execution...there isn't anything out of the ordinary there.  Law and Order was (and is) an innovative format take on the police procedural/legal procedural....but it had been done before; again, the execution is what set it apart.  It has a great gimmick (and one not really seen since the Arrest and Trial in the 50s)...but if the acting and writing hadn't been up to snuff, the 'hook' wouldn't have done much for it.  And Dick Wolf is another creative force, like so many others, who've had their tussles with studio executives over the content of their show.


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## Umbran (Feb 17, 2004)

Kahuna Burger said:
			
		

> Buffy was a followup to a movie (a tug to the mainstream) following the adventures of a fashion consious spunky teen (mainstream) with an ensemble cast of supporting teens (mainstream) with supernatural battles (the hook). In other words, just another TV show.





Faulty logic #1 - followup to a movie only makes it mainstream if the movie were also mainstream.  The movie seems to only have grossed $14 million at the box office, and it met poor critical reviews.  If nobody watched the movie, how can it have been in the mainstream?

Faulty logic #2 - the fact that some elements are mainstream does not mean the show is mainstream.  Teens are mainstream, so that all shows with teens are mainstream?  By that logic, if the show has human beings in it, it is mainstream.

When trying to decide if a thing is "mainstream" don't look at what's in it.  Look at who likes it.  If it appeals to many individuals and many different types of people, the thing is mainstream.  If it appeals only to narrowly defined groups, or very few people in general, it isn't mainstream.


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## KnowTheToe (Feb 17, 2004)

Oh well, life goes on and it was not going in a direction that really interested me.  I still considered it good enought to watch weekly.  I will probably loose Smallville as it is not good enough on its own, but since it was on the same night as Angel, it was easy to schedule.


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## Kesh (Feb 17, 2004)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> Crusade is the textbook case of how meddling in a show by a network can destroy it.  When you contrast the first episode broadcast with the episode that was obviously meant to be the real first episode, it becomes clear that B5:Crusade was a good show done a great disservice.  I still mourn the lost opportunity that was Crusade.  Especially after reading the three unfilmed episode scripts that JMS released (including the season finale).




Please tell me you have those scripts saved somewhere?  I've been wanting to read those, but they're not up on any sites I can find.


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## Staffan (Feb 18, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> Yes and No.  B5's original 4th+ 5th seasons were crammed into the 4th season when they thought they were going to end.  The actual 5th season is stuff TNT picked up B5.



Yes and no. According to JMS, the original Plan was to end season 4 around the time of Sheridan's capture. Intersections in Real Time (the interrogation episode) would have been either the last episode of season 4 or the first of season 5.

The main thing that went "wrong" with season 5, from a planning standpoint, was that Claudia Christian left the show. Otherwise, Ivanova would of course have been B5's new captain instead of Lockley. I also think she would have been the one to get involved with Byron instead of Lyta.


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## Umbran (Feb 18, 2004)

Staffan said:
			
		

> I also think she would have been the one to get involved with Byron instead of Lyta.




Not likely.  Lyta's involvement was required for too many other plot elements regarding the Telepath War, Bester, Garibaldi, etc.  Those things don't play out properly without an anomalously powerful telepath being involved, and that means Lyta, since Talia was removed from the picture.


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## WizarDru (Feb 18, 2004)

Kesh said:
			
		

> Please tell me you have those scripts saved somewhere?  I've been wanting to read those, but they're not up on any sites I can find.



Regrettably, I don't.  They were posted to a now defunct e-book site by JMS, and I never thought to save them at the time...and then the site took them down, and then went down itself.  There were three scripts, the last two episodes of the season from JMS, and one that I think was planned for the second season, featuring Bester.  These would have confirmed and in certain cases predated material that would appear in the two trilogies, one by Gregory Keyes and the other by Jeane Cavelos (I think) dealing with the mages and the Telepath war.

Great stuff, really.


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## Planesdragon (Feb 18, 2004)

*"just another TV Show?"*



			
				Kahuna Burger said:
			
		

> Buffy was a followup to a movie (a tug to the mainstream) following the adventures of a fashion consious spunky teen (mainstream) with an ensemble cast of supporting teens (mainstream) with supernatural battles (the hook). In other words, just another TV show.



 Think about that for a minute.

Most crossovers between Cinema and television are the screen expanding, not contracting.  Of the hundred or so popular movie/series combinations, only a few started out as movies.  And the most memoriable of them?  M*A*S*H, which was TV doing a Shakespherean "were not talking about THIS war" message about Vietnam.
A "fashion concious teen" who burnt down her school and is a supernatural freak.  That's right up there with Superman and the last season of "Ellen" for "normal."
A ensemble cast that openly slept around, shifted roles and/or members every season, and included a Gay Jewish Witch.  (Hey, that could be a series in itself--three, actually.)
And as for the hook--actually, it was just a gimmick.  The real hook was the writing.  Not the acting, not the set design--the writing.  (A few actors were good, but SMG isn't by any means a great actor).
 So, if it was "just" another TV show, then you must have an awfully high bar.  Or you just don't like TV.



> And, lets face it, everything eventually goes off the air. But when you're looking for the reason that your show went off the air, I guess "they just couldn't handle its non mainstream themes which only appeal to people as cool and enlightened as me" makes us all feel better about losing a show we liked than "it hit a slump and wasn't what the execs needed."



 Y'know, either of those are valid interpreations of what Whedon said.

 "I did this creative thing, like we're supposed to--and I got cancelled for it!"

 *sigh*  I think when I die, I'm going to bequeath every copyright I have and the remainder of my estate to a trust to encourage popular art.  It's friggin' annoying having artists who have more reach than any painter ever could tied to the whim of some suit who doesn't pay his taxes.


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## John Crichton (Feb 18, 2004)

Planesdragon said:
			
		

> And as for the hook--actually, it was just a gimmick. The real hook was the writing. Not the acting, not the set design--the writing. (A few actors were good, but SMG isn't by any means a great actor).



I would say she was, on that show.  She even won a Daytime Emmy for her work in soaps.  I think she really carried the show and made the viewer really feel the scenes she was in.  Sure, we all couldn't relate to her (most of us related more to Xander for obvious reasons) but she was the glue that kept all the crazy together.  She made us believe a skinny California girl could pull off superhuman feats.  She had the attitude, the charisma and the chops to pull off the absurd.

 Now, if she could start picking some better movie rolls to play...


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## LightPhoenix (Feb 18, 2004)

Umbran said:
			
		

> Not likely. Lyta's involvement was required for too many other plot elements regarding the Telepath War, Bester, Garibaldi, etc. Those things don't play out properly without an anomalously powerful telepath being involved, and that means Lyta, since Talia was removed from the picture.



Actually, according to statements JMS had made, Ivanova was supposed to hook up with Byron, with Lyta in the background.  Also, keep in mind that there are almost no plot elements about the Teep War revealed... the only one I know for sure (based on what JMS has said) was that Lennier dies during it.  Even that's suspect, since he said Lyta was supposed to die too, but she would have had a guest appearance on Crusade had the actress not had scheduling conflicts.

So really, having Ivanova with Byron might not have changed much at all in regards to the storyline.  Or at least, the storyline would have adapted to fit the events of the fifth season.


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## Staffan (Feb 18, 2004)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> Even that's suspect, since he said Lyta was supposed to die too, but she would have had a guest appearance on Crusade had the actress not had scheduling conflicts.



IIRC, that appearance would have been in a flashback in Path of Sorrows. The teep XO (I'm drawing a blank on his name at the moment) has a flashback to helping someone in the telepathic resistance group escape confinement in a PsiCorps facility, which is then quickly followed by the place being blown up (or something like that - it's been a while since I watched it). That would originally have been Lyta.

I also think Lennier was originally planned to have been there, helping with the blowing up bit and dying in the process.


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## Kahuna Burger (Feb 18, 2004)

Umbran said:
			
		

> When trying to decide if a thing is "mainstream" don't look at what's in it.  Look at who likes it.  If it appeals to many individuals and many different types of people, the thing is mainstream.  If it appeals only to narrowly defined groups, or very few people in general, it isn't mainstream.




*snicker* you mean like both of my AARP qualified parents?     Sorry to break it to you, but buffy did have wide apeal. Thats probably why it stayed on the air for 7 years and seems to do well in the DVD market (at least they are mostly through the run of the show while I still wait for the damn SECOND SEASON of Law & Order to hit the shelves... grrr....). I know lots of people with lots of different tastes who liked it and still watch the reruns. Thats one of the major reasons I do call it mainstream. In fact, I don't really know anyone who doesn't like it at least a little, and I'm regularly amazed at how outside my usual geek crowd I socialize these days. (do you know that no one I work with knows what schroedingers (sp?) cat is? very weird...)

Anyway, enough of this. If it serves some purpose for you (or joss) to believe that angle or buffy were just too outside the tiny bubble of american thought to suceed, hey, it eases the sting of concellation and thats all for the best, right? I don't agree in the slightest, but the subject is far too subjective to have a hope of convincing each other, so back to wondering where if anywhere the 'franchise' will go from here...

So are all the buffy books I've seen just novelizations of the show, or has it opened up to outside stories, ala star trek. I mean, thats the way to keep a world alive, IMHO.

Kahuna Burger


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## Umbran (Feb 18, 2004)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> Actually, according to statements JMS had made, Ivanova was supposed to hook up with Byron, with Lyta in the background.




If you say so.  Still looks to me like that generates a number of plot holes.



> Also, keep in mind that there are almost no plot elements about the Teep War revealed...




IIRC there are elements of this addressed in the "Psi Corps Trilogy" by J. Gregory Keyes (based upon an outline by JMS, and pretty darned close to canon, I hear). Garibaldi has a real mad on for Bester. What he does is entwined with Lyta (as seen in their agreement in the end of the series).  And that agreement is largely based on her being really deeply and personally cheesed off by Byron's death.

Sure, anything might have been written differently had other charcters been available.  However, Lyta seems a bit too central to the plot of that final season for me to grok what you say JMS was planning.  I'd be a bit more accepting if someone could give a link to where JMS makes such claims - the telephone game is a bit less than reliable.


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## Diavolo (Feb 18, 2004)

it is a sad thing to see a good show go away. with last season's shows being as they were, i was unsure if i could stand another episode of angel. but now i've become interested in the show again. but now i hear it is coming to an end. the shows on tv that i can actually stand are becoming few and rare, and i look forward with great hope to them being immortalized in dvds. now with babylon 5, buffy, any half way desent star trek series, and soon angel gone, smallville seems to be the only show out there worth watching any tv for. i hope the creators of babylon 5 and buffy & angel, can come our with another show worthy of their greatness.

here's hoping
diavolo


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## WizarDru (Feb 18, 2004)

Umbran said:
			
		

> IIRC there are elements of this addressed in the "Psi Corps Trilogy" by J. Gregory Keyes (based upon an outline by JMS, and pretty darned close to canon, I hear). Garibaldi has a real mad on for Bester. What he does is entwined with Lyta (as seen in their agreement in the end of the series). And that agreement is largely based on her being really deeply and personally cheesed off by Byron's death.
> 
> Sure, anything might have been written differently had other charcters been available. However, Lyta seems a bit too central to the plot of that final season for me to grok what you say JMS was planning. I'd be a bit more accepting if someone could give a link to where JMS makes such claims - the telephone game is a bit less than reliable.



The PsiCorps Trilogy isn't close to canon, *It is.*  JMS was fairly emphatic on that point, that the novels (with minor editing errors aside) are a legitimate part of the series.  Reading the unproduced scripts from Crusade confirmed the contents of the that and the mage trilogy in one fell swoop [Crusade taking place after the mage trilogy, and in the midst of the Psi Trilogy.

As for specifics, look no further than the Lurker's Guide to Babylon 5, the single greatest piece of reference material to that illustrious series.  Scroll down on this particular page to '*JMS Speaks*' for his direct quote from Usenet.  A quick google on the topic also produced some usenet postings from JMS, as well.  Essentially, Ivanova's latent powers would have been kicked up, and she would have been very important to the arc.  The core story wouldn't have changed much, though.


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## Umbran (Feb 18, 2004)

Kahuna Burger said:
			
		

> *snicker* you mean like both of my AARP qualified parents?




Anecdotal evidence, unfortunately.  A couple of old folks do not a movement make.  Same for your personal experience with many different sorts of people liking the show.  We're talking about a market with 280+ million potential viewers, right?  The few folks a particular person knows aren't statistically relevant to such a large population, on top of them probably being a somewhat slanted sample for not being chosen randomly.



> Sorry to break it to you, but buffy did have wide apeal.




Sorry to break it to you, but I've made no argument to the contrary.

Take a look - I've not said that Buffy didn't have wide appeal.  I've not said it wasn't mainstream.  I thought your support and evidence were weak, but that doesn't mean I disagree with the basic premise.

I actually think that Buffy got as close to "mainstream" as genre shows get, perhaps third only to Star Trek: The Next Generation and The X-Files.  I'm not sure exactly how mainstream that is, though, because the term is poorly defined.  It seems to me that "mainstream" isn't about what's in the show, or it's history, but instead is about who watches the show, and how much the show penetrates popular culture, and how much it influences the medium in which it operates.



> Thats probably why it stayed on the air for 7 years and seems to do well in the DVD market




DVD sales are a poor indicator - you can (and frequently do) get very good DVD sales from a small, rabid following.  I hear Firefly is selling pretty darned well - well enough to stand as partial support for taking the show to the silver screen.  But Firefly was hardly mainstream.



> If it serves some purpose for you (or joss) to believe that angle or buffy were just too outside the tiny bubble of american thought to suceed...




Hm.  I must reiterate that I said no such thing.  It serves no purpose for me at all.  It serves my intellectual curiosity, and perhaps the discussion as a whole, to engage in a sidetrack on what qualifies as "mainstream".


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## Taelorn76 (Feb 19, 2004)

Not sure if this was already mentioned here but it appears a revived version of the "Dark Shadows" is going to be aired on the WB.
Here is a link to the article
 Angel staked!!.


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