# Remove my Account Please



## Merlion (May 21, 2004)

I am sick of being attacked and abused for having opnions or daring to suggest a change in something. And I'm sick of the fact that there are rules restricting what you can talk about or what langauge you can use, but its alright to tear someone to pieces, as long as you dont use profanity or bring up relgion or politics.
  I'd like my ENworld account removed please.


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## Crothian (May 21, 2004)

Wow, what brought this on?

edit: read the thread, didn't find it that bad and frankly Pax is usually a bit rude in his replies.  But to quit over that is just overreacting.  Just place him on your ignore list.  

--nosey Crothian


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## Dinkeldog (May 21, 2004)

Crothian, care to provide a link?


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## Citizen Mane (May 21, 2004)

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=88721


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## Merlion (May 21, 2004)

Crothian said:
			
		

> Wow, what brought this on?
> 
> edit: read the thread, didn't find it that bad and frankly Pax is usually a bit rude in his replies.  But to quit over that is just overreacting.  Just place him on your ignore list.
> 
> --nosey Crothian





Well, the fact that a moderator (Hypersmurf) viewed in, and posted on the thread and didnt say a bleeding word about it is what sent me over the edge.
  And now this. It seems as I said that as long as you arent spewing profanities, being hateful and insulting is just fine.
  And this isnt the first such incident I've had.
How is the fact that he's usualy rude relevent...accept to reinforce the idea that maybe he needs a temporary ban or warning or some such? And you may not have found it that bad, but I did.
  But, as shown by Hypersmurf's utter inaction, none of that matters ~shrug~


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## the Jester (May 21, 2004)

Honestly, Merilon, I didn't think he was abusive.  Just mho.


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## Teflon Billy (May 21, 2004)

the Jester said:
			
		

> Honestly, Merilon, I didn't think he was abusive.  Just mho.




Ditto that.


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## Hypersmurf (May 21, 2004)

Merlion said:
			
		

> Well, the fact that a moderator (Hypersmurf) viewed in, and posted on the thread and didnt say a bleeding word about it is what sent me over the edge.
> 
> But, as shown by Hypersmurf's utter inaction, none of that matters ~shrug~




So... is it the word 'laughable' you're objecting to?

I'm really not quite sure what you're getting at.

-Hyp.
(Moderator)


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## aurance (May 21, 2004)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> Ditto that.




I agree.


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## AGGEMAM (May 21, 2004)

So you found the comment that he found your opinion laughable rude?

Come on, mate, sit back and think about it. It's not like his opinion matters is it? Sod him. And get on with it.


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## Piratecat (May 21, 2004)

Merlion, I just reviewed the thread, and I can comfortably say that you're not attacked or abused in it. People disagree with you, yes, but they're disagreeing with your stance and position, not levelling personal insults at you. I'm sorry if you disagree, because frankly you're an interesting member to have in this community, but that thread is _well_ within what's reasonable in a place where people meet to discuss rules and ideas.

Whether you stay or go is up to you, but I personally think this is a minor thing to leave a message board for.  For reference, we don't remove accounts here. If you choose to leave we'll likely miss you, but your account isn't going to be removed upon request -- and you're always welcome back whenever you like.


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## diaglo (May 21, 2004)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> For reference, we don't remove accounts here.




you guys should reconsider this.

with email, bots, virus, and worms and such. if someone wants to be removed from the database you should allow it.


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## tleilaxu (May 21, 2004)

puleeze

sounds like an attention getting tactic to me. 

sorry for not being supportive or whatever, but if you want to leave EN world then just leave. you don't need to start a thread saying "please get rid of my account, i just can't take it anymore!"

its like a fake suicide attempt or something.

(sorry to the mods if i've stepped over the line)


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## Merlion (May 21, 2004)

Well as diaglo just stated, there are practical reasons for wanting ones account removed.

And it isnt about attention, or at least not attention for me. Its about calling attention to a problem. I've been posting here for quite a while, and visiting the site since it first came into existence before 3e was released.
  And of late, I've seen things go down hill steadily. This particular thread isnt the sole reason, its the straw that broke the camel's back.
  Theres rules about what you can discuss and what words you can or cant use, but seemingly no rules requiring courtesy or anything of that nature. Being rude and unpleasant is perfectly acceptable, as long as you dont use any "bad words".
  Add to that the general trend of total closemindedness as far as gaming issues go, and the tendency for that to build to hostility against anyone who has any new ideas or doesnt like the way something is, and, well I just dont see any point.
  But yes if I go, I want it to be known why. I dont really want to leave these boards but if 1) theres going to be no real rules of _conduct_  or enforcement thereof, and 2) mostly just a knee-jerk defending of the status quo as far as gaming etc goes to the point where you get your head bit off for suggesting a change...again I dont see a point in my participating.


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## HellHound (May 21, 2004)

Diaglo, Merlion, ever considered just changing the listed email address, thus eliminating the both / virus threat?

If you don't want to participate, good for you. I'm not going to get into the debate over code of conduct. But deleting accounts is a pain in the puck, so if you need to get rid of your account, just attach a patently false email address and be done with it that way.


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## AGGEMAM (May 21, 2004)

Remember Merlion that not all people are completely fluent in english so we (who aren't) might use expression that appear to be rude to other, and vice-versa I might add.

But the largest problem IMO is the general degeneration of the language and courtesy on an IRL level. This will invariably influence the boards. I often find that people that are teens now a day (half my age) are incredibly rude when talking to eachother. This is seen as normal unfortunately.

Since you can't change society as a whole alone the most you can do is set a better example to follow.


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## JoeBlank (May 21, 2004)

Merlion said:
			
		

> Add to that the general trend of total closemindedness as far as gaming issues go, and the tendency for that to build to hostility against anyone who has any new ideas or doesnt like the way something is, and, well I just dont see any point.



I'm not sure I understand this comment. You get all kinds on a board like EN World, some more closed-minded than others. Sure, Pax disagreed with you, but at least he explained why. 

In reading through the thread, I note that brehobit, Shard O'Glase, HeavyG, and The Jester all agreed with your opinion that some modifications should be done to the spell in question. Dark Dragon, Psiblade, and Pax disagreed. Sounds like a healthy debate to me.


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## Piratecat (May 21, 2004)

For reference, the rules of conduct are  right here. 

Merlion, I'm fairly cognizant of insults and abuse, but I honestly believe that you're being overly sensitive in that thread. I'm sure you don't agree, but that's how it looks to a neutral third party.  




			
				diaglo said:
			
		

> You guys should reconsider this.




As Hellhound suggested, it's usually best for people to just change their email address and not post any more. I can disable an account to stop someone from posting on it, if they really like, but we don't remove accounts for two reasons:

1. It messes up all the posts made in the past.

2. Many people who publicly make a fuss about leaving and who demand for us to remove their accounts end up reconsidering after some time has passed. It's a lot easier for this to happen if the account still exists.


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## ledded (May 21, 2004)

Merlion said:
			
		

> <snip>Theres rules about what you can discuss and what words you can or cant use, but seemingly no rules requiring courtesy or anything of that nature. Being rude and unpleasant is perfectly acceptable, as long as you dont use any "bad words".



Yes, this is often true, but it's also true pretty much everywhere IRL also Merlion.  I read the thread, and Pax may have been a bit strong on you, really more just a little condescending, but he didnt flame you out.  He really only disagreed with you in a slightly haughty manner, IMO.

People do that all the time.  The waiter was like that to me at the last nice restaurant I went to.

Instead of just bailing, why not provide intelligent discourse in return that highlights and emphasises what you didnt like that he said, and maybe he would tone down a bit.  Some people are immature, some guys are always spoiling for a fight, some people are just having a bad day, and some folks are merely passionate about a certain subject matter but are good folks nonetheless.  You have no idea when someone rubs you the wrong way which of those it is.  It's usually worth it to find out, and by challenging their viewpoint in an intelligent discourse you can usually, within a post or two, find out which it is.



			
				Merlion said:
			
		

> Add to that the general trend of total closemindedness as far as gaming issues go, and the tendency for that to build to hostility against anyone who has any new ideas or doesnt like the way something is, and, well I just dont see any point.



Man, you should visit the Wizards boards and a few others if you really want to see this.  I had the nerve to disagree with Charles Ryan in a thread on the Wizards boards once (not even being nasty at all, merely disagreeing) and I received about a dozen PM's with all kinds of nastiness and fist-shaking (and bad spelling, and bad grammar...).  I emailed Charles to make sure I didnt actually rub him the wrong way, and he wrote back that he actually enjoyed the debate we were having and the other folks should just grow up.

Anyway, hate to see you go, but if this truly affects you as strongly as you state, then do what you have to do.  But I've had much worse arguments and rants with people on these very boards that I consider pretty good forum-friends, and we ended up shaking hands and getting on with life.

Just my 2 cents.


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## the Jester (May 21, 2004)

Merilon, I like your posts.  I don't always agree with you, but I find your take on things interesting and I like interesting posters. 

Maybe you need to take a break for a week or three, but don't burn your bridges.  You may well discover that after a week or three you really miss ENWorld- or at least certain members! 

Do what makes your life best, but ime burning bridges is rarely the answer.


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## Morrus (May 21, 2004)

Piratecat has explained why we don't delete accounts; as Hellhound suggested, you can effectively "disable" your account by putting in a fake email address.


Now, onto the "rules of conduct" issue -- there are some pretty clear rules of conduct as outlined in the announcement that PC linked to, above.  I'd especially like to highlight this part:



> I'd also like to quickly address the issue of what to do if you feel uncomfortable because of another person on these boards. I'd hate to see someone stewing over something for weeks or months, and then leaving because they feel that the moderators don't care about their problem. It is important for you to realise that with nearly one-and-a-half-million posts being made by over 17,000 members, we admins and mods can't know about everything that goes on. If you feel that there is a problem, or that someone is being mean to you or anyone else, please let a moderator know.



That's a very important part of the rules here -- there is no way on earth that the moderators can read every thread (or even a small percentage of them), so we need to rely on people speaking up when they see a problem.  In this particular case, Merlion, you've provided an excellent example of why I included this in the rules announcement - you have stewed over something for some time, and then decided that the moderators don't care about your problem. 

Now, whether you stay or leave is your decision (and your account will be left intact should you ever change your mind), but I think that it is important to note that this problem is not the fault of a lack of a code of conduct (the code of conduct is clearly indicated, and if someone is breaking those rules *and the moderators know about it*, something will get done) or the lack of interest on the part of the moderators.

Anyway, we'd be sorry to see you go, but we'll respect your decision.  I hope you'll choose to stay.


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## Zappo (May 21, 2004)

I've read the thread, and I can't find anything that I would consider abuse. Having your position attacked is just to be expected in any discussion, and not everyone has the same writing style.

 As for the general case, the ENWorld boards are much, _much_ more polite than the majority of internet boards I've used, save for those with very little traffic. I wonder where you would go? Wizards.com? Rpg.net? :\


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## diaglo (May 21, 2004)

HellHound said:
			
		

> Diaglo, Merlion, ever considered just changing the listed email address, thus eliminating the both / virus threat?





can you change your email account for the same user name?

i've never tried it. and wouldn't consider it. but that is good to know if it is possible.

i use my work address.


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## Eridanis (May 21, 2004)

diaglo said:
			
		

> can you change your email account for the same user name?




Absolutely. I've changed email addresses several times over the course of my time here.


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## Merlion (May 22, 2004)

Morrus: I understand that you guys cant be everywhere at once and all that entirely. However, Hypersmurf read and posted on the thread, and did not react to the rudeness. But, I will counter that with the fact that I know there have been times when I probably should have reported problem posts instead of just being upset about them but not doing anything.
  As to other boards...well, I post on the Wizards boards and Monte Cook's boards and have reccently been posting on Nutkinland. Strangely enough, offhand I'd say Monte's boards are the worst overall...I have several people there who refuse to post on any thread i start with anything I've written simply because I dont immediately incorporate their suggestions into my work...and I'd say Nutkinland is probably least problematic, although I havent been there much/long.
  I visited my spell turning thread and saw Piratecat's post, which was basicaly what i was looking for.
  Some times, _insulting_  someone's position or arguements (as oposed to disagree with, debating or rebutting them) is pretty much the same as insulting the person.
  People around here often dont just disagree, debate or rebutt, they insult...and it often becomes more about "who wins" then about discussing whatever is being discussed.


The fact that I reccently discovered that posting things on the internet renders them unpublishable means my post count everywhere will most likely be going down, but I will be sticking around ENworld. And in future, I will be using the "report post" button in these situations...and I will expect (and I believe that their will be) action against rudeness and bad behaviour.


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## Crothian (May 22, 2004)

Just and FYI, the report a bad post button is not on right now


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## Zappo (May 22, 2004)

Merlion said:
			
		

> ...I reccently discovered that posting things on the internet renders them unpublishable...



Huh? From a legal PoV? Really? ...well, probably yes, now that I think about it, but what are the chances that I would publish my enworld posts anyway? The only material which just might be worth of publishing I've produced is the (still incomplete) Abyssal Campaign, but it uses WotC IP so it's technically illegal anyway. Would you really post less because of this?


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## Merlion (May 22, 2004)

Lord yes. I've posted a years worth of writting on here, and now I cant attempt to publish any of it...and virtually all of it was intended for publication.
  You wont be seeing me post much actual material anymore. Unless its stuff thats gotten rejected, or is directly linked to stuff I've already posted or is just for personal use should I ever actualy get to bleeding play again.

I'm now more likely to do threads discussing the issues I have with various games. of course, those are among the most likely to turn ugly.


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## Hand of Evil (May 22, 2004)

Merlion I am sorry you feel this way, I am sorry that this has ever come up.  These forums and and the mods are the best anywhere on the net, I am sorry to see anyone go and while you think it is for the best, you will be missed.


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## Piratecat (May 22, 2004)

Why are you under the impression that posting things on the net makes them unpublishable? That's certainly not universally true. Look at the Tome of Horrors for an example, or Nyambe, or Sepentrionalis.


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## Dimwhit (May 22, 2004)

Merlion said:
			
		

> Lord yes. I've posted a years worth of writting on here, and now I cant attempt to publish any of it...and virtually all of it was intended for publication.
> You wont be seeing me post much actual material anymore. Unless its stuff thats gotten rejected, or is directly linked to stuff I've already posted or is just for personal use should I ever actualy get to bleeding play again.
> 
> I'm now more likely to do threads discussing the issues I have with various games. of course, those are among the most likely to turn ugly.




You sure about all this? I think if you post stuff on forums, you may lose your claim to exclusive ownership (i.e. you posted in public domain and it is no longer 'yours'), but I'm pretty sure you can still publish it.


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## Nifelhein (May 22, 2004)

Merlion, I have suffered some bad situations here too time and again, what i have learned is that some people contribute while others prefer to show that you are wrong and they are right, either because of your lack of vision or something else, this happens anywhere anyway, just that here we feel more cheated because we like the hobby so much.

Personally I would not go away because of that, I would ignore those posters and keep life going on, one good way to make them change is to act politely and ask them to do the same, say you are sorry if they got offended by anything and things might go well. or not.

Personally I think that saying your point is laughable because of anything is somehow offensive, to me it is far from counter argumentation and so I see how you feel. I would never leave anywhere for that though, I have decided some time ago in a very bad incident that I suffered that i wouldn't keep good things away from me because of people I dislike or that despise me, they are not worthy all that, in my opinion.

Anyway, on the posting on public forum and all, you are still the author, you are still the only one able to seel the rights, else someone is incurring in a crime. If it is game mechanics, though, what you post is more often that not considered OGC and so can be used as they wish, although you are the author, and so they have only one restriction, to give the author his credit.

Posting ehre does not render anything unpublishable, on the contrary, it might raise interst in it and make it be published, like Nyambe and the Tome of Horrors, for instance.


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## Darkness (May 22, 2004)

Crothian said:
			
		

> Just and FYI, the report a bad post button is not on right now



 Yes. For the time being, if you have a problem, PM or e-mail a moderator. My e-mail address is: oni_no_bakaATyahooDOTcom

Thanks.

- Darkness


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## Merlion (May 22, 2004)

Well, it renders things unpublishable in Dragon anyway. I emailed one of the editors and discussed it with him. And that was the primary place I was considering submitting my work. I also know its the same generally for fiction, because I was going to post some stories I've written on Elfwood the big fantasy art/literature gallery, but they told me if I do, magazines and the like will not accept it.
  But, that just means I wont neccesarily be posting everything I write on here.




> Yes. For the time being, if you have a problem, PM or e-mail a moderator




Have you guys changed it so non-monetary contributors can send private messages? If so, its a good thing.


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## RangerWickett (May 23, 2004)

Merlion said:
			
		

> Well, it renders things unpublishable in Dragon anyway. I emailed one of the editors and discussed it with him. And that was the primary place I was considering submitting my work. I also know its the same generally for fiction, because I was going to post some stories I've written on Elfwood the big fantasy art/literature gallery, but they told me if I do, magazines and the like will not accept it.
> But, that just means I wont neccesarily be posting everything I write on here.




Well, I'd gladly consider anything you've posted here for potential publication in the ENWorld Gamer, our renamed and reborn magazine.  While admittedly we prefer not to just print something people can get for free online, if the material is of good quality, we will use it.

My email address is RangerWickett@hotmail.com  Yeah, I'm not afraid of spam!  Ha ha.


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## Angcuru (May 23, 2004)

Wow.  Ok, Merlion, Pax may have been a bit ruthless in his dissections of your argument, but it doesn't qualify as abuse.  I've enjoyed reading your posts, and I'm surprised that you'd want to leave such an awesome place as ENWorld just because someone was a bit critical of your opinion.


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## Darkness (May 24, 2004)

Merlion said:
			
		

> Have you guys changed it so non-monetary contributors can send private messages?



 Wouldn't be feasible right now anyway; there's a reason Russ turned off the board's e-mailer (which is why 'reported post' doesn't work and why you can't look up a member's e-mail address in their profile even if they have enabled it).


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## Merlion (May 24, 2004)

Angcuru said:
			
		

> Wow.  Ok, Merlion, Pax may have been a bit ruthless in his dissections of your argument, but it doesn't qualify as abuse.  I've enjoyed reading your posts, and I'm surprised that you'd want to leave such an awesome place as ENWorld just because someone was a bit critical of your opinion.





I kind of hate to get this started again but: He wasnt just ruthless in his dissection of my argument. He first stated that he didnt care about offending me, and then stated how laughable my ideas and opnion were.

  Again, insulting a person, and insulting what they think or say, is basicaly the same thing.

And the rest of the post was basically him gleefully, gloatingly pointing out any factual errors I had made. 


And unfortunitly, in this place, that kind of behaviour is not uncommon.

Abuse comes in a lot of forms, and degrees. If his had been the first such I'd dealt with here, I wouldnt have posted that post. But it was one of many, and it sent me over the edge for a bit.


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## Camarath (May 25, 2004)

Merlion you seem to be very sensitive when dealing with people who disagree with your opinions or who do not believe that your rule changes are good. I do not believe that people who argue with you or dismiss your ideas intend to actually abuse or persecute you. If you want to change the rules in your own game you are free to do so. But if you insist that others should accept your changes to the rules as balanced and reasonable while refusing to alter your ideas to address their concerns you will find a good deal of frustration and perhaps hostility. Also I believe that many people come off more aggressive and less playful than they intend so it works best if you cut them some slack.


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## Hand of Evil (May 25, 2004)

Merlion said:
			
		

> And unfortunitly, in this place, that kind of behaviour is not uncommon.



And I disagree, it is rare, very rare.  Sure debates get heated and sure poster get angry but this is civilization compared to other places.   


Camarath, a discliamer for your sig!  Love it!


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## Psionicist (May 25, 2004)

AGGEMAM said:
			
		

> Remember Merlion that not all people are completely fluent in english so we (who aren't) might use expression that appear to be rude to other, and vice-versa I might add.




Oh my yes. It is also worth to point out that some users here are used to other forums where you have to use a certain kind of language, so other users will actually bother to read your post. You would be amazed at the language used in serious computer forums/news groups, where the general rule is: 

Just get to the point
Cut through the bull. 
We are trying to solve your _problem_, not help _you_.


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## Merlion (May 27, 2004)

> Merlion you seem to be very sensitive when dealing with people who disagree with your opinions or who do not believe that your rule changes are good




This is not the problem. Although yes, some times I find it annoying when people exhibit knee-jerk reactions and closemindedness. But real problems only occur, not they disagree with my opnions or believe my "rules changes" are not good...they occur when the person does so in a way that is _rude, disrespectful, condesending, or unpleasant._ 

Just like with most other people in the world.




> I do not believe that people who argue with you or dismiss your ideas intend to actually abuse or persecute you.




I disagree, in some cases. I think theres a lot of people in the world, and especially on the Internet, who say whatever they want to say with no regard for basic courtesy or empathy because they dont care, and because on the Internet, its easy and mostly consquence free.




> But if you insist that others should accept your changes to the rules as balanced and reasonable while refusing to alter your ideas to address their concerns you will find a good deal of frustration and perhaps hostility





But rarely does anyone just express concerns. They proceed to tell me how laughable, or stupid or "broken" or unbalanced they are. How whatever it is that I am saying is irrelevent or needless.

And again I remind you, insulting (as in calling laughable, or stupid or something similiar) what someone says or thinks is pretty much paramount to doing the same to the person.




> Also I believe that many people come off more aggressive and less playful than they intend so it works best if you cut them some slack




See, this is what I find strange. Whenever someone is rude, thoughtless, or otherwise unpleasant on the internet, and someone complains about it, its the person who complains that is told they need to alter their behaviour.
  If someone does similiar things face to face, it usualy has unpleasant consquences for them.

Instead of me cutting slack, how about thoughtless people choose not to be thoughtless, and spend a little more time weighing their words before hurling them? Instead of me not being offended by offensive things, how about the offensive people dont do the offensive things?

Now, I admit I overeacted a little to _that specfic post_ because I was already upset about things. But rudeness is rudeness, and in real life, its looked down on. Why should it be different here?




> And I disagree, it is rare, very rare




Oh, its a little better than some other boards. But it still happens. I wouldnt call it rare or very rare. Maybe uncommon. But I've had numerous such experiences in the time I've been here. And inumerable experiences of the whole close minded, knee jerk reaction sort of thing, which isnt intentional or hurtful, just annoying.


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## Merlion (May 27, 2004)

> Well, I'd gladly consider anything you've posted here for potential publication in the ENWorld Gamer, our renamed and reborn magazine. While admittedly we prefer not to just print something people can get for free online, if the material is of good quality, we will use it.




I sent you an email a bit ago but got no response. I would be interested in looking into this.


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## barsoomcore (May 27, 2004)

Merlion said:
			
		

> Again, insulting a person, and insulting what they think or say, is basicaly the same thing.



I actually disagree with this. I think that one of the most important understandings a person can come to is that attacks upon their ideas are NOT THE SAME as attacks against their person. It's this that makes debate a useful means of getting to the truth -- or of coming to the best solution for a problem. Everybody contributes their ideas, and attacks each others' and the best idea will survive.

That's only possible if everyone involved can maintain the intellectual distinction between their ideas and their ego. But that's how it's done.

I design software for a living and when three or four brilliant engineers (and me -- NOT a brilliant engineer let me assure you) hole up in a meeting room with a couple of whiteboards to decide how to implement a new feature, I can tell you that if somebody thinks an idea is stupid they don't hold back. As a non-brilliant non-engineer I certainly come in for a healthy share of the criticisms -- my ideas tend to be pretty stupid -- but I can't let it bother me. And it doesn't, because I know smart people have stupid ideas all the time. And I know that two smart people can disagree on what is a stupid idea.

I'll echo the others saying that ENWorld is a freakin' oasis of civilized discussion on the Internet. It's full of really really smart, passionate, articulate people who hold very strong opinions and often disagree and yet manage to keep the same civility and mutual respect that I see those brilliant engineers display. I just try to hold myself to the same standards I see the best people on these boards maintain.


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## barsoomcore (May 27, 2004)

As an addendum, it's NICE for me if everyone conforms to my ideas as to what is appropriate language. But since I have no way to reliably communicate that, nor any compelling reason to offer as to why anyone should do so, I have to accept that people will converse in ways that I find inappropriate.

Rather than worry about their motives, or make a production out of how I wish they'd change, the best thing I think I can do is to address the substance of what they say and as much as possible ignore the tone of how they said it. If they've broken the EN World rules I let a moderator know. If not, then I bite my tongue and remind myself that not everyone has Mary Poppins as their personal hero.


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## Camarath (May 27, 2004)

Merlion said:
			
		

> But rarely does anyone just express concerns. They proceed to tell me how laughable, or stupid or "broken" or unbalanced they are. How whatever it is that I am saying is irrelevent or needless.
> 
> And again I remind you, insulting (as in calling laughable, or stupid or something similiar) what someone says or thinks is pretty much paramount to doing the same to the person.



Merlion, in one thread [New Spells: Demolish, Root(Edited Demolish)(again) ] I responded to one of your spells. I felt that typeless damage justified a increase in the spell's level (from 4th to 5th). In lieu of that change (which you did not want to make) I suggested that you could have the spell deal sonic damage. You responded by saying "Uhh...like nothing has resistance to sonic anyway and people would be making the same complaint about it.". I found this rude and a bit flippent since no one other than me had voiced concerns about the spell being too strong. In my opinion using the nonexistent complaints of people not engaged in the discourse to dismiss another person's opinion out of hand is rather underhanded and shows a lack of respect for the other person. I have not responded to any of you subsequent posts because I did not feel that you cared about or would listen to my opinions. 

I feel that you tend to look at people legitimate corncers as "knee-jerk reactions and closemindedness" and thus do not consider that they might have a point. Then when people support their points (such as in this thread [New race: The Sylvani. And a racial Prestige Class(Edited again) ]) you tend be rather dismissive and rarely change your opinion or suggested rule. I am not sure what you are looking for when you post here since you seem to feel put upon when people disagree with you (even when they use language no more rude than you yourself use) and only seem to respect those who agree with you (as is IMO evidence in this thread [New Spells: Mage Bolts, Vacuum Burst, Gravity Warp(edited)]).


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## barsoomcore (May 27, 2004)

Merlion said:
			
		

> Instead of me cutting slack, how about thoughtless people choose not to be thoughtless, and spend a little more time weighing their words before hurling them? Instead of me not being offended by offensive things, how about the offensive people dont do the offensive things?



Wouldn't it be nice if it were possible to enforce this? But it's not and there's not a blessed thing you can do to make it so.

EXCEPT -- to set a good example for them to follow. You're the only element in the equation that you have any control over. Behave the way you think is best, and hope that people will see you doing so and decide to copy you. Some will and some won't and some that won't won't because they think what you're doing is stupid -- and who are you to say they're wrong? You'll reconsider what you think is best and change your mind and all but through everything the only thing you'll ever have any ability to control is YOU. So wishing you could make people behave the way you think is best is futile and only distracts you from the real task -- making yourself behave the way you think is best.

Sorry, ranting. Ms. Poppins comes out every now and then. Of course she's practically perfect in every way, so it's easy for her.


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## Merlion (May 28, 2004)

> I actually disagree with this. I think that one of the most important understandings a person can come to is that attacks upon their ideas are NOT THE SAME as attacks against their person. It's this that makes debate a useful means of getting to the truth -- or of coming to the best solution for a problem. Everybody contributes their ideas, and attacks each others' and the best idea will survive.




Ok, let me rephrase...allthough I would think you knew what I was getting at anyway.
Insulting a person, and insulting what they say, is not precisely exactly, the same thing. You can think highly of a person, but not every idea they have.
HOWEVER. Insulting what a person says and thinks, nine times out of ten is going to be just as rude, offensive and hurtful as hurting the person.

Especially when you make a special point of stating that you dont care if you give offense.

And besides which, it is very possible, even easy, to disagree with someone, to express your thoughts about the flaws in their ideas, without being rude or condenscending.




> Wouldn't it be nice if it were possible to enforce this? But it's not and there's not a blessed thing you can do to make it so




No theres not. But their are things the moderators of these boards can do about it, when it happens on these boards.
  The thing that sent me over the edge was the fact that a moderator posted in the thread, and didnt say word one about what was going on. Because to him, it was irrelevent. But if your going to have a community, your going to have to take everyones feelings thoughts and opnions into account to at least some degree. Not everyone has a super thick skin and just shrugs of rudeness and insults. This cant be done completely or all the time, I know that but again I will reiterate: What pushed me over the edge was not what Pax said, it was Hypersmurf ignoring the whole thing, and then acting like he didnt know what I was talking about when I said something.





> Merlion, in one thread [New Spells: Demolish, Root(Edited Demolish)(again) ] I responded to one of your spells. I felt that typeless damage justified a increase in the spell's level (from 4th to 5th). In lieu of that change (which you did not want to make) I suggested that you could have the spell deal sonic damage. You responded by saying "Uhh...like nothing has resistance to sonic anyway and people would be making the same complaint about it.". I found this rude and a bit flippent since no one other than me had voiced concerns about the spell being too strong




Ok several things. First, you stated to me, essentially, that I should just ignore people being rude and act like it didnt happen. Those werent your exact words, but thats basicaly what you were getting at.
  So why are you bringing this up now?

Nextly: Yes, I have gotten crabby in my threads some times when I shouldnt have. I post on several different boards, and I deal with a lot of untinctured crap on both of them. But I realize I shouldnt take out anger at the bad behaviour of the people of one board on those of another.

Although, that was not intended to be rude. It was just a statement of fact. I've been posting my stuff on these and other boards a long time, and I know how people react to stuff. I know what the trigers are.
Untyped damage
sonic damage
spells that deal damage and have a save other than reflex
force damage
and various other issues.

It doesnt excuse my bouts of irritability, but I have become cynical and jaded about these things. I get the same responses about mechanics again and again and again. And usualy, they are baseless. Usualy, its people who have decided that certain things arent allowed by the rules, or not at certain levels or whatever, when in fact its simply their opnion. The only existing rules about spell creation, are the damage dice caps. But people behave as though there were many other hard and fast, documented rules....when their arent.




> I have not responded to any of you subsequent posts because I did not feel that you cared about or would listen to my opinions.





What I dont understand is, why didnt you say something to me? See thats what I dont get...if I did something to offend you, you should have said something instead of just deciding not to post on my threads. Or, if that was what you really wanted to do (or not do), you should have just kept doing it.

You see, another issue I encounter...people see discussion of things like spells as being purely about the mechanics. Your sonic energy suggestion was a valid one, but it would have completely defeated the purpose, flavour and feel of my spell. Ibased my Demolish spell on something specfic, and Sonic did not fit (in fact, I dont really care for Sonic much as far as energy attacks, to me it usualy feels more science fiction than fantasy...thats just me of course) And this is often the case...people make suggestions based just on wanting to bring it into their idea of balance, but that involve making it into something completely different and thereby defeating my purpose entirely.

As to me not listening to people's opnions...this is another thing I dont understand. I post my work after I am pretty sure I have it right, as a final means of conformation. If I dont agree with something someone suggests, I am not going to add it to my work. Doesnt mean I didnt care about or listen to it...just means I disagreed with it.
  Its the writer/critic dynamic. I write, and I put things up for critique. I change mistakes, and I add or remove things as suggested that improve the work. But I am not obligated to make a change I disagree with just because someone says I should. ANd often, even if I agree with a suggestion, I will debate it at length, to be sure it is in fact a good idea.
  Much of my work has been changed, and improved, drastically by imput from people on this and other boards.


The problem I have is, most of the responses I receive range from unhelpful and/or slightly annoying (such as my pet peeve of people coming in and stating, as a fact "This is overpowered". not "I think its overpowered" or "it might be to strong", but "Its overpowered" unequivcaly, and then they proceed to tell me why, with little or nothing to do about it), to unpleasant and rude.





> I feel that you tend to look at people legitimate corncers as "knee-jerk reactions and closemindedness" and thus do not consider that they might have a point.





Again this is a matter of difference of opnion. What you call legitamate concerns are to me often cases of people just freaking out over something thats different. Not because its actually unbalanced, but because its different.
Such as the guy in the one thread you linked getting all over me for trying to create a "rogue killer" in the form of a spell that deals damage and allows a Fortitude rather than reflex save.

Thats actually a perfect example of one of the most annoying behaviours I discover...I often find that people latch on to a class that they feel "gets the shaft" or should have special priveleges, and if I write something that purely by chance, happens to be keyed to their weakness, the person proceeds to state that its unbalanced basicaly because it can hurt their pet class.





> you tend be rather dismissive and rarely change your opinion or suggested rule.




Well, first of all as I've said, it does happen. Just because you've rarely seen it doesnt mean its all that rare (especially considering you've stated you didnt associate with my threads for a time).
  Nextly, again, why would I change my work in a way that I feel is uneccesary or detrimental? Posting my work for critique in no way obligates me to implement every change a poster suggests.




> I am not sure what you are looking for when you post here since you seem to feel put upon when people disagree with you




I feel put upon when people do certain things when they disagree. When they throw at me one of the responses I have heard dozens of times before. When they state their opnion as fact (this IS overpowered). When they claim that something is impossible to do in a balanced fashion just because nothing similiar has been done in the PH. When they accuse me of trying to create a "rogue killer" (or a "wizard killer" or a "fighter killer" or whatever). When they tell me its to powerful and why, but dont actually make any suggestions or say anything else helpful. When they make suggestions that involve making the thing into something completely different that has nothing to do with what I am trying to do.

As for what I am looking for...I am looking for thoughts and opnions, on both the balance and flavour of my work.

What I often tend to get, is statements of the fact of how "broken" it is, and suggestions on how to fix it by making it into something entirely different.

But thats fine, because as I said, I've also gotten a lot of useful feedback. But, I dont tolerate rudeness...just as I expect people not to tolerate rudeness from me (which I try my best to avoid).




> and only seem to respect those who agree with you (as is IMO evidence in this thread [New Spells: Mage Bolts, Vacuum Burst, Gravity Warp(edited)]).




I respect people who 1) have an open mind and 2) behave respectfully toward me, wether they agree or disagree with me.
  Your quoting/linking that thread rather erroneusly...CyberZombie didnt exactly totaly agree with me on all points. The issue of the saving throws for instance...she saw both sides, and how it could go either way. And that was why I said what I said about her responses...and partially relief, since I was getting dogpiled not just with disagreement or criticism, but borderline attacks and accusations.

And really, I have to wonder why you've gone to the trouble of all this linking etc. It sounds very much to me like your just trying to prove that I am the problem. So...are you trying to encourage me to stay....or subtle indicate you'd just as soon I left?

Truthfully, there isnt a whole lot of reason for me to post anymore. I cant post any of my work that I wish to try and publish. And when I start discussion threads, it usualy ends badly. But, I will continue, because I do enjoy debate, and because their are insights to be found.


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## Camarath (May 28, 2004)

Merlion said:
			
		

> And really, I have to wonder why you've gone to the trouble of all this linking etc. It sounds very much to me like your just trying to prove that I am the problem. So...are you trying to encourage me to stay....or subtle indicate you'd just as soon I left?



 Merlion I just wanted to give you some perpective. I felt you were rude but I believe you did not mean to be. I would not want to let the spell you put foward into my game but I respect you right to put whatever you want into your own game. These things happen, people get offended by people who did not mean to offend and people have different opinion about what is balanced. It is life you can either let it torment you or you can learn to live with it.


			
				Merlion said:
			
		

> What I dont understand is, why didnt you say something to me? See thats what I dont get...if I did something to offend you, you should have said something instead of just deciding not to post on my threads. Or, if that was what you really wanted to do (or not do), you should have just kept doing it.



 I did not respond to you because I like to post in threads in which I can contribute and I felt you would not change your rules basied on my feedback and thus I did not feel that I could be helpful and thus I did not post. If you do not find my comments helpful then I have no wish to force them on you. The way I look at it, it is not my job to change people (you or anyone else on these boards). Your remarks seemed in character with your remarks in other threads so I assumed that was your style and thus rather than make a scene or try and change you or let it bother me I just left it well enough alone.


			
				Merlion said:
			
		

> Its the writer/critic dynamic.



 Criticism is not always pleasent. I often find it very unpleasent. People take apart your work and judge it and that is never an easy thing to endure. But if I viewed people's criticism of my work as criticisms of me I would never be able to share my ideas.


> And really, I have to wonder why you've gone to the trouble of all this linking etc. It sounds very much to me like your just trying to prove that I am the problem. So...are you trying to encourage me to stay....or subtle indicate you'd just as soon I left?



 Because I wanted to tell you that sometimes things are only a problem if you let them be and show you that you sometimes engage in the same behavior that you are decrying. I am not out to get you. I do read your threads and have used some of your rules. I think you have good ideas and would miss you creativity if you left. I don't think you should care much if I or anyone else thinks or says your rules are broken, overpowered, or munchkin. If you like them then that is good enough. I would like to help if I can but I do not share the same perspective and sense of balance that you do so on many issues we will inevitably disagree. When that happens it is the idea and only the idea that I have a problem with not you.

Though I would understand if you choose to leave just as I understand why FrankTrollman left.


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## barsoomcore (May 28, 2004)

Merlion said:
			
		

> Insulting what a person says and thinks, nine times out of ten is going to be just as rude, offensive and hurtful as hurting the person.



No. Nothing is in and of itself rude, offensive or hurtful. It is you, the listener, who applies that interpretation to it. YOU need to stop considering attacks on your ideas as the same as attacks on your person. Nobody else can do that for you, and as long as you hold the above-quoted opinion, you won't be able to.

My point is that unless and until you do so, your ability to intelligently debate ideas in order to determine the best one will be hampered. I believe your life will improve if you decide to change your mind about this.

I don't care if I offend you, Merlion. I honestly don't -- because I have NO WAY OF KNOWING what will or won't offend you. If you decide to get offended (and getting offended is always the result of a conscious decision) then that's your perogative. I make every effort to follow the rules of conduct as posted for these boards -- and I accept the moderator's intervention when I fail to do so.

Pax did NOT violate the rules of conduct and so the moderators were simply not obliged to intervene. Whether or not you decided to be offended doesn't enter into the equation. Their job is not to protect your feelings -- it's to enforce the rules of conduct.

Two more quick points.

One: Here's a basic truth of life: If you meet a new moron/jerk/loser every week, it's you.

Two: If it hurts when you do something, stop. If you don't have any reasons to post here, don't.


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## ledded (May 28, 2004)

barsoomcore said:
			
		

> I actually disagree with this. I think that one of the most important understandings a person can come to is that attacks upon their ideas are NOT THE SAME as attacks against their person. It's this that makes debate a useful means of getting to the truth -- or of coming to the best solution for a problem. Everybody contributes their ideas, and attacks each others' and the best idea will survive.
> 
> That's only possible if everyone involved can maintain the intellectual distinction between their ideas and their ego. But that's how it's done.



Amen, brother.  A wise friend of mine once told me that the true sign of an intelligent person was the propensity for being able to entertain an idea without actually having to believe in it.

I've always found folks that take pointed inquiry into their ideas as personal attacks (barring name-calling and abject rudness) to be either too close-minded or actually researched/confident in their subject to actually debate it.

This is one reason why we're always told not to talk about religion or politics in polite conversation;  very few people can debate these subjects without giving in to either their passion or ignorance of it, and they are subjects often at the very core of a persons personal belief system so it's best left alone unless you know they can provide discourse without taking offense at a polite challenge or debate.  Of course, some people can be that way about the kind of socks they wear too.  

But you are right;  you can't ever truly explore a subject (IMO) unless you can at least attempt to view it from every angle, and take your personal passions out of the equation.  Nobody's perfect though;  while I can take challenges to most of my ideas or beliefs in stride and relish in a good debate, there are a few topics I cannot reliably provide a good debate on because I find it too hard to even understand the other side of it.

You just have to divorce you personal feelings as best you can and keep an open mind, and if you can't do those for the most part I believe you should just stay out of it.



> I design software for a living and when three or four brilliant engineers (and me -- NOT a brilliant engineer let me assure you) hole up in a meeting room with a couple of whiteboards to decide how to implement a new feature, I can tell you that if somebody thinks an idea is stupid they don't hold back. As a non-brilliant non-engineer I certainly come in for a healthy share of the criticisms -- my ideas tend to be pretty stupid -- but I can't let it bother me. And it doesn't, because I know smart people have stupid ideas all the time. And I know that two smart people can disagree on what is a stupid idea.



Oh man, I do the same thing on a daily basis.  And I can tell you this, the guy who, no matter how brilliant, acts like a big baby every time his ideas are challenged is a liability to the *team* and often will find himself off of the project and out of a job.  I've been a team lead on a few occasions and had to more than once either talk with someone or have them moved onto a different project so we could get some actual software design done; in several jobs I've been on the deadlines were tight on mission-critical real-time systems and there is no room for major mistakes.  Disagreements are common, and people will often vehemently challenge your ideas;  that's the nature of the business because if you follow someone's idea often you will be liable for making it actually work.   I don't have patience for fools, but I also don't have patience for children at work either, because my clients often have measured their down-time costs in the 10's of thousands of dollars per hour or even minute.



> I'll echo the others saying that ENWorld is a freakin' oasis of civilized discussion on the Internet. It's full of really really smart, passionate, articulate people who hold very strong opinions and often disagree and yet manage to keep the same civility and mutual respect that I see those brilliant engineers display. I just try to hold myself to the same standards I see the best people on these boards maintain.



I agree whole-heartedly.  While people will sometimes get arrogant, confrontational or argumentative, most of the time I've seen that it hasnt been in the realm of personal or outrageous attacks but merely strong debate.  Even you (Barsoomcore) and I have mixed it up pretty hard once or twice in a thread, and have managed to come out of it shaking hands and wiping the dirt off without talking ill about each other's mothers 

There are plenty of other sites that are nowhere near as civilized as this one, and I think it's as much due to the participants as our moderators setting a good example.  

Each person decides what is offensive.  The only exception to that is when someone is purposefully trying to offend you to get a reaction, and the best way to react to that is by intelligently pointing it out.  I've often said something that was stupid without thinking and was properly berated for it;  I usually smile and get on with life.


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## Piratecat (May 28, 2004)

I think we're probably done here.

Klunk.


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