# Professional GM: Possible Return



## Captain_Commando (Apr 11, 2009)

For those of you who are unaware, I'm a New Yorker who was about to start a horribly planned business called "Caravan of Blades" back in early March. The business was a pay-for-play Dungeons and Dragons 4e campaign. I wasn't thinking clearly. My father had recently passed away of a heart attack and the experience and aftermath were a bit traumatic (I discovered the body that night). I needed to get a job and picked a bad idea for making money.

Fortunately I put a stop to the horror on the first day when I snapped back to my senses.

Unfortunately despite job-hunting since then I still haven't gotten hired. Yesterday featured an interview at the local Burger King yesterday which I think went very badly. I'm having serious doubts about being able to get a job. My resumé sucks, so much that it might be impossible for me to get anything due to local competition being fierce and better qualified in practically every case.

I'm handing in some more applications over the next couple of weeks, but I'm starting to feel very desperate as well as very pathetic.

I'm contemplating another try with paid game mastering. This time with a plausible sane business plan.

This time practically everything would have to be done differently.

This might be just a false alarm but I'm mulling this over nonetheless.

This will be just brainstorming for now. Actually going through with this would be a last resort. I'm open to suggestions.

So to start things off.

1. This will NOT be a pay-for play campaign. This time I'll be a game master hired by the hour. No sitting around simply hoping for people to show up. I'll be able to cancel in case of emergency.

2. I'll charge $8/hour + tip for my services. It will be relatively inexpensive if my clients are paying as a group. The tip is not mandatory.

3. I'll run 1-shot self-contained adventures for DnD 4e. They can be from a menu of prewritten original adventures I'll offer or published adventures or custom adventures tailored to the clients' preferences (with an extra service charge).

4. I'll advertise my services to local meetup groups and specific local businesses. The local DnD Meetup Group for example has over 800 members, many without a regular group or unable to find games that fit their schedules.

5. My primary hook will be convenience. For example, if someone is planning a special birthday party featuring a DnD game, and no one has the time to prepare a game, that's where a hired GM might be considered. I don't have to try to be the best. I just have to run a good fun game and be available. I'll be providing most if not all the gaming materials.

6. I'll have a web site tailored for the business instead of mooching off another website that is focused on something else altogether.

7. I'll scout out every location that I can find that is conducive to gaming to give clients a broad range of places to choose from if they have no specific one in mind.

8. All of my original 1-shots will be tested and refined through the local meetup group's meetup events.

9. I'll create a relationship with the local privately-owned game store(s) and comic shops. Cross advertisement and possible space rental/reservation.


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## Bodhiwolff (Apr 11, 2009)

First off, I wish you the absolute best of luck with your endeavours. 

However, in the spirit of helping you refine your idea, I might make a few comments. After all, you had one failed attempt, and if your second attempt is going to work, you want to enter it with a completely realistic approach.

I'm going to compare you to, say, the people who sign up to GM games at popular gaming conventions. But first, some pre-amble.

Anybody who pays money for a service wants to be assured that this service surpasses anything they could get for free. We pay money to eat out at a restaurant because we feel that the increased quality over our own cooking justifies spending hard-earned cash on the experience. We pay money to see an old movie at a revival theatre (rather than watch it on DVD) because the experience of "going out" itself holds value for us.

So if I pay money for a professional GM, I want an experience that I feel surpasses anything I could do myself, or anything which my friends can do.

At 8 dollars an hour, for a 5 hour game, I'm expected to shell out 40 dollars for your services. If I don't get value for my money, I'm going to be royally ticked off.

This means that you are expected to excell at ...
a) rules mastery
b) game presentation
c) game mastering / player interaction / impromptu storytelling
d) Adventure design

If you take a look at game conventions, you have people sign up to host and GM games for serious gamers. People sign up to play these games, for free, but their expectation is that anybody who is going to GM such a game is going to provide a truly exceptional experience. After all, they're GMing for serious gamers at a convention, not just their friends and family!

If you then read the forum comments after the games, some GMs are shocked to discover that people's expectations weren't met. Their game is torn apart. Their style is ridiculed. All in all, people just aren't that impressed. They could've got this at home!

Now, what you're asking for is people to pay money to have you perform the exact same service, for the same sort of crowd (anybody willing to pay money for a GM is a serious gamer), but have them pay money for it.

You might want to test the waters first. Set up some test games, with an anonymous response system (e-mail, internet forum, paper questionairres, something), and get people's opinions. Get them to rate the various factors I discussed, and get their feedback. Make sure that *strangers* (not friends, never friends!) get a chance to judge you, and rate you anonymously, and then you take their comments to heart. And finally, make sure to ask them if they'd be willing to pay the fee you're asking for such an experience.

If, after 5 or so test games, your responses indicate that this is viable, then you're off to the races. Sure, you missed out on approximately $200 in fees, but that's peanuts compared to the feedback that you're getting. You can even use this as an advertising mechanism -- you can show some of the positive ratings and comments as part of your sales pitch. People can be assured that they're getting a quality service!

If, after 5 or so test games, your responses indicate that people aren't satisfied in the way you need in order to be able to charge, then you might reconsider your move to turn professional.


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## Lord Xtheth (Apr 11, 2009)

I once tried this. Although in a place that had considerably less people interested in the game.
I ran it based on donations with the explanation of "Donations will insure that I am eating, a me that isn't hungry will make better adventures."

The donation based adventures ran for a good 6 months, and I made a total of $20

As you can see, dismal failure.

I can see you have done a little market research, and are planning on doing a little more, however finding out whether or not people will pay you for your DMing in the first place should be one of your priorities.
One more thing about getting people to pay for your DMing, people will expect good adventures every single time. There have been times where I had "brain farts" or stumbled with the rules, or just plain had a bad day and it wrecked the game session for at least a little while. If people are paying you, they'll expect a certain level of professionalism, like always knowing the rules, or having adventure ready that can span the entire time they want to play which may be difficult in some cases.


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## Frostmarrow (Apr 11, 2009)

I think we need a pretty fantastic professional GM to pave the way for an industry that could support ten thousand pro GMs. I'm surprised we haven't got this already. Maybe we need more money and less friends.


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## Shadowsong666 (Apr 11, 2009)

damn i should be charging my gaming groups...


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## Captain_Commando (Apr 11, 2009)

So yeah, I will be testing my original material through the local DnD meetup group. So far I've run a test game for 1 meetup and got very positive reactions from the players for a half-improvised game which featured an alteration to standard encounter design that I cooked up for playtest purposes.

As long as I keep in practice with meetups and playtests, I should be able to maintain a good level of quality in my game mastering and further refine my storytelling methods. I've learned to be flexible with the rules without ruining game balance and adapt quickly to unexpected player actions. I'm currently trying out new tools to improve my options in storytelling and half of them seem to work. Particularly battle challenges.

Keep in mind this is just a backup plan. I still have more job applications to hand in.

Also, keep in mind that the charge per hour will probably in many cases be split by the players. A 5 hour game with 5 players would mean each player coughs up $8. That's pretty reasonable. I'm going to keep it that price to remain reasonable. There is also the tip to consider. I can hope for generous players but would still make enough to cover my costs and make a small profit.

If the players are unsatisfied, it's by the hour so they can stop the session  to cut their payment any time. Since I will be regularly training as a game master and testing my material, customer satisfaction will not likely be a problem.

Again, this is just a backup plan. Any regular job would probably make more money.


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## Obryn (Apr 11, 2009)

I don't know I'd want to hire a GM who couldn't get a job at Burger King.

-O


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## Mournblade94 (Apr 11, 2009)

Obryn said:


> I don't know I'd want to hire a GM who couldn't get a job at Burger King.
> 
> -O




You know just when I was starting to feel guilty that the thought was in my head...


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## Yeoman99 (Apr 12, 2009)

Good luck with the job hunting, I wish you well. As a business plan I felt that Bodhiwolff gave great advice. Its a brave plan so I hope it works out for you should you decide to take that route. A blog of the experince one day might be interesting


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## darjr (Apr 12, 2009)

I like the dream so darn much I hope you find success in it.

I know that If I was in New York I'd at least show up for a session and pay my way and do what I could to help make it a killer session.

Edit: I've reread some and I think that a job and food on the table is priority 1. This idea of yours. While very cool, is at the very least after that. Very very very seriously, table it till your working.


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## Captain_Commando (Apr 12, 2009)

Obryn said:


> I don't know I'd want to hire a GM who couldn't get a job at Burger King.
> 
> -O




It's only been one day since the interview so I don't know for sure if they're not going to hire me.

I think a problem came when I informed them that I wasn't looking for something long-term. The mood of the conversation seemed to change for the worse at that point.

Again, it might be a false alarm but it doesn't feel like one.


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## Imperialus (Apr 12, 2009)

And what about the other aspects of your original plan?

The crowded coffee shop?

The mask?

The genetic condition?


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## kiznit (Apr 12, 2009)

Quite frankly the only way I think you could even remotely hope to pull this off is if you have an excellently-tuned sense of humor about what you're doing as well as an infectious sense of fun.

Approaching it from the standpoint of a "serious bizness" strikes me as a recipe for disappointment and further financial ruin.


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## Ogrork the Mighty (Apr 12, 2009)

This is ridiculous. I read the last thread from the OP and someone needs to step up to the plate and give this guy a reality check so it might as well be me.

Buddy, get your head out of the clouds and get a job. A real job, not trying to get people to pay you to play a game.

All that effort you're going to put into your D&D game? Refocus it towards getting a real job. And if you can't get a job at a fastfood joint then you should seriously consider getting professional job search help. There are government agencies that will help.

Your idea isn't going to work. Ever. I repeat, EVER. People who are encouraging you or giving you "tips" are just enabling your delusional fantasy.

Mods, you can come down on me but this is getting ridiculous. Someone needs to tell this guy to stop living in Never Never Land.


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## SlyFlourish (Apr 12, 2009)

I had an idea down this road and I thought it would be interesting. I'm lucky to be employed and I know DMing ends up really costing me a fortune in minis, books, and dwarven forge. There's no way I would ever make back that kind of money.

I also thought about the idea of a professional WoW guild where the leaders and officers are paid by the members for guarenteed raids.

Still, I don't know that it's viable.

Good luck!


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## conanb (Apr 12, 2009)

Ok I'll take your post at it's original concept, DM'ing as a job. 

First, let me say that I DM far more than I play. I have been running games since I was 13. I will admit to not doing much dming with strangers. I find that these are the most diffucult because I don't know enough about the people I'm playing with to tailor my style to something they like. But I've still had an ok time with this. 

So, how would you need to treat this to make it work as a job rather than a hobby? The key is you need to bring to the table a level of preparation and an attitude of professionalism that shows your taking this as your job.

All I can do is give a list of things I would do if I were trying to DM as a professional:

_1) Survey your clients._

This is by the most important for me. In order to tailor my session to the play style of the people I'm playing with I need to know what type of game they are looking for. Do they want a combat heavy game? A plot heavy game? Do they want more actual freestyle roleplaying or to roll dice through skill challenges? This kind of stuff you pick up with a group over time, but since this is a customer based service I would probably ask customers to please fill out a survey to maximize their gaming enjoyment. A menu helps mitigate a bit of this, but realize that if your gaming for 5 people you'll have 5 different play styles at the table. It's best to offer something for all of them.

_2) Be Organized & Prepared_

You need to come to every session with your notes, npc's, and books ready to go. You should have handy pages that allow you to minimize prep time and get to serious gaming. If I'm paying for your time I want to be sure that you don't mess around setting up. I would also probably not charge clients for setting up, bathroom breaks, etc. I might even have a time clock that can be stopped during gaming shouldd I take a break or whatever. You'll need to present an itemized billing summary indicating the times you spent DMing. 

_3) Research and know your settings._

Typically for some service like this I would stick to prepared settings and I would know everything I could about them. This means for Forgotten Realms I expect you to read the books, know the campaign guide, and the history rather well. This means that during the day you are spending time preparing for your job by studying up for the session. Same for Eberron. Even if your adventures don't reference this, I am paying you to DM I expect to have something I can't get from my friends. An expert on the setting shows a dedication that may be hard to match and be something worth the money they're paying.

_4) Prepare Props, Voices, and Deep NPC's_

Another thing that I would expect since this is your primary job is that you would come with something that I dont' have time to prepare on my own. Inventive props is one thing I find takes extra time to prep. If your running adventures off a menu, you should have props ready for most of them. I would also prepare to do some voices and personalities. You might even practice these in your spare time ala acting classes or such. I would also develop fully detailed backgrounds on your NPC's. 

_5) Dress & Act Professionally_

This is something I hope doesn't need to be said but you never know. I am not saying to roll in to the session in a tie, but slacks and a nice shirt might be good. If you show them you are treating this as a professional event then they will more likely be happy to pay you. Still be fun at the table, personable and engaging but don't roll in with jeans and a t-shirt that says "You must be this tall to ride this ride." 

_6) Offer Special Classes & Tutorials_

Sometimes what really helps a group is a session just where you sit down with them and go over what is gaming or how to DM. I've had some great times with the players in my games just discussing the issues of metagaming or how to develop a deep plot. Some people who may be loathe to hire you as a DM would jump at the opportunity for some instruction on monster design, plot writing, NPC creation, or simple instruction on rules & DMing. I would also suggest offering a kid friendly tutorial where you can help younger players learn the ins and outs of DMing.

_7) Collect Feedback from Every Group_

I suggest coming up with a feedback form or evaluation form for people to fill out after every session. Tell them they don't have to put their names on it, but if they could fill out the small survey and write any suggestions that would be really helpful. If they don't want to give it you now make sure you have an online site for anonymous feedback. 

That's all my suggestions for now. Good luck on this. I really hope you succeed. I have to reiterate the point that you need to offer something that people can't get at home.


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## Tav_Behemoth (Apr 12, 2009)

The successful professional GMs I know about fall into three categories:

1) Game designers/writers whose fan base is willing to pay for the experience of playing a game with someone whose work they admire. Examples are Dave Arneson's charity auction games or Ken Hite's walking tour/Call of Cthulu game I organized through Otherworld Excursions.

2) GMs who run games for kids. Having a background in education may be useful - that's the route that led Becky Thomas to start the Roleplay Workshop.

3) GMs who happened to be in the right place at the right time to be hired by a group of well-to-do gamers; JSimpson is the standout example.

It seems to me #3 is the kind of thing you're looking for. Here's my analysis of the prospects:

- There are definitely people out there who would love to play RPGs again but don't have a GM to run a game for them or a group to play with. Most of those people are going to have entered gaming around the peak D&D years of the early '80s, so they'll be in their late 30s, likely to have kids and careers but not free time or friendships defined by gaming.

- You're not going to reach those people by posting at RPG forums. NYC is a gaming-rich environment, and anyone who is close enough to the gaming scene to know about a D&D Meetup or RPG.net is going to be able to find a group without paying for the experience.   

- Your pricing is so low that it becomes a turn-off. Let's say you have six people at the table. You're valuing your time at about one-tenth of the amount they're each paying a babysitter so that they can go out for the evening. You need to have the confidence to charge the kind of rates that other skilled professionals do. 

- Consider renting a space. Cafe 28 is a good location for gaming (I play there myself, drop me a PM if you want to get together!) but part of what you're selling is professionalism and high-end quality. For Ken Hite's excursion, we rented a suite at the Hotel Intercontinental (one of the occult sites on the tour, as it's a former Masonic temple) and had them cater a meal. In NYC, I've heard that the suites at the W are a good option. Including things that have obvious value in the package makes it an easier sell than your GMing time alone, since gamers don't usually pay for that at all. Yax's Epic Vacation is a great example; it'll be interesting to see how it succeeds!

- Tipping is problematic. Jonathan Tweet told me he'd been thinking about playing for tips as a route to professional GMing, but that it'd all fall apart the moment the biggest tipper found an ultra-cool magic item. Making it anonymous (maybe a Paypal button on your web site) would keep other players from being suspicious that the big tipper is getting favorable treatment, but it leaves open the likelihood that the tipper himself expects to get something special in return. 

- Having a website is a great idea. Playing and DMing more is also good. Basically, everything you can do to establish yourself as someone who really enjoys gaming is important, because the only thing reward you can count on from doing this is your own fun and satisfaction.


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## Solodan (Apr 12, 2009)

I wish you the best of luck.  Honestly, I think you've got a great passion to want to start your own business and pursue the route of the entreprenuer.  

Unfortunately, you seem to be trying to enter a market in which you are competing against people who do the same thing for free.  That is going to be a difficult hurdle to overcome.

If you do want to do gaming professionally, maybe you could work something out with a game store or something.  Hold popular events at a gamestore, be responsibile for all the advertising and bringing in of new people.  Maybe you could either A) get a job working for the store with the provision that some of your paid hours would be hosting "events" such as gamemastering, teaching gamemastering of whatever new games come out, etc of B) Try to negotiate a commision with a game store:  "Mr. Owner, I want to bring games to your store, if I run events, can I get 5% of the sales you make from people buying stuff for these events?"

I neither run a game store, nor have ever even tried this.  These are just ideas that I hope help you on your way.


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## TarionzCousin (Apr 12, 2009)

Imperialus said:


> And what about the other aspects of your original plan?
> 
> The crowded coffee shop?
> 
> ...



Seconded. ENWorld needs to know.


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## dmccoy1693 (Apr 12, 2009)

I've kicked a similar idea in my head in the past, but if I ever attempt this, I'm going to do it through my local community college.  I figure calling it an introduction class to role playing.  Doing it as a Non-Credit class where anyone can teach anything, you set up an entire campaign running for 1 night a week for 4 months.  

This has the added bonus of having the college pay and feeling less ... I don't know... dirty, I guess is the word I am looking for.


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## Dragon Snack (Apr 12, 2009)

Aim higher.  Charge more and make it worth it.

Realistically, you are only going to max out at one session a day during the week (well, realistically you will be extremely lucky to get that).  If they're 5 hours long, that's only 25 hours.  If you kill yourself on Saturday and Sunday DMing 12 hour days, there's another 24 hours.  Let's be generous and add another hour to make the math easier...

50 hours at $8/hour is only $400 a week for busting your butt (and the hours you aren't getting paid will be going into prep work).  Can you live on less than $400 a week in NYC?

That's actually not what you will take home though, since you have expenses.  Uncle Sam and Mr Patterson will want their pound of flesh (if I read my tax forms right, it looks like Bloomberg gets a cut as well, but I don't actually live in The City) and to top it off you get to contribute both halves to "your" SS.  And if people are paying you to DM, you better have all of the books - especially the newest ones.

BTW, tipping the owner (which you would be) is considered improper by many people, even if it has become more acceptable these days.  Don't count on a single penny over what you charge.

Good luck, but I think you would be better served to either do this part time on the weekends (for a little extra spending cash) or put your effort into finding one or two groups who would be willing to pay the big bucks for a DM (maybe some Wall Street fat cats will want to spend their money less conspicuously - on a D&D game!).


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## unan oranis (Apr 12, 2009)

Stratagies for dm'ing professionally I am not interested in/have abandoned for now:

#1 (the king of france strategy)
Lower your cost of living to zero (become homeless bum) and play for fun.  This is not a bad option in north america if your zen enough to get over all the cool toys most of society enjoys.  You may want to scoot over to canada for the medicare.

You will probably discover that scouring for snacks in back alleys is very simular to larping, and perhaps a greater level of play will be unveiled to thee.


#2 (the depressingly viable strategy)
Study assorted snake oil new age medicine websites.  Borrow some of their language and put together a "mind altering psychic healing circle" or some such; practice pretending to talk to the dead.  Charge at least 20,000 per session, you only need one a year.

Might have to establish voodoo cred by mutilating yourself or getting a bizarre tattoo.


#3 (the shamwow strategy)
Claim to have found a way to make money as a dm.  Sell a guide on how to do it.  The guide is mostly filler centered around advice for creating and selling guides on how to make money dm'ing.

Be wary of releasing your guide as a pdf, and if you do for gawdz sake don't pull it and then claim to be fighting piracy.


#4 (the next generation strategy)
Patiently await the society engulfing ramifications of holo-deck style virtual reality.  WOW has demonstrated that dnd will conquer the landscape of shared imagination, which will become the defacto universe as sentient beings know it.

Possible danger/awesomeness of dm's hunting each other down and wizard battling for each others souls ala highlander.  I'm coming for your ass by the way ~ best up your game before we meet.


If any of these strategies seems ridiculous your imagination is too weak for the job you're after.


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## Jack99 (Apr 12, 2009)

Obryn said:


> I don't know I'd want to hire a GM who couldn't get a job at Burger King.
> 
> -O



I am not sure I'd want to hire one that applies for a job at BK.



Captain_Commando said:


> It's only been one day since the interview so I don't know for sure if they're not going to hire me.
> 
> I think a problem came when I informed them that I wasn't looking for something long-term. The mood of the conversation seemed to change for the worse at that point.
> 
> Again, it might be a false alarm but it doesn't feel like one.




Why on earth would you tell them that? Has no one told you how/what to say at an interview? 

Okay, aside from the above, I do have two questions. 
1) $8 an hour? It sounds insanely low to me, but I know we have it good over here. To compare, what does BK pay?

2) What are your credentials as a 4e DM? How many hours have you had of actual DM'ing so far? Also, what are your credentials from the prior editions?


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## aboyd (Apr 12, 2009)

Tav_Behemoth's post is great because he talks about real people who actually _do_ GM for money.  However, I don't think a guy who flubs a Burger King interview can pull together anything close to what Tav_Behemoth outlined.  So...



Solodan said:


> If you do want to do gaming professionally, maybe you could work something out with a game store or something.  Hold popular events at a gamestore, be responsibile for all the advertising and bringing in of new people.



_That_ is a great "fourth type of professional gamer" to add to Tav_Behemoth's list.  And importantly, _this_ is something I suspect the OP can do.  Head to every gaming store in the region that has a table for gamers, and vow to fill seats around the table, constantly.  Have the game store owner pay you as a normal employee, but your job is to get butts in the seats, get gamers walking around the store, get gamers buying sodas & candy bars from the vending machines, get gamers feeling enthusiastic about hanging out there, etc.

It's not only possible, it's _plausible_ for an enthusiastic, charismatic GM who hasn't been able to land "normal" work.

EDIT: _everything_ that you do at that table should be for sale.  If you use a Battlemat, at the end of the game you should say, "We sell these, $30 each."  If you're running a module, you should say at the outset, "We're running this module, we have 6 copies if any of you enjoy it."  You know?

And be prepared to suck it up a little bit.  Owners of real small stores are going to expect you to do a bit of everything.  You may spend some days standing at the register, looking at the gaming table longingly.  There are ways around that, though.  For example, if you get a confirmed 6 players for a 4 hour game, the store owner is going to have a real hard time sending 6 people away so you can audit the inventory or something.

Also, probably best to keep games short or have intermissions, so you can rotate people in & out, get them up and walking around the store.  I'm thinking 3 or 4 hour games straight through, or 5 or 6 hour games with a good 20 minute break in the middle.  Never end a game as the store is closing.  _Always_ end at least 30 minutes before closing, so the group has time to mill about and flip through some books (or whatever might perk up their wallets).


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## Tav_Behemoth (Apr 12, 2009)

Good post, *aboyd*. In Korea there are game cafes that work on this model. My hosts took me to one in a mall in Seoul. It's kind of like a Starbucks, except that the walls are lined with shelves of games. You order drinks from a menu, buy table time (about the price of a fancy coffee for one hour IIRC), and then request games (also listed on the menu, with descriptions of their playing time, complexity, age range, etc.) The staff will then bring you the game, and if you don't know how to play they teach you.

Part of why this works is that boardgames are a new thing in Korea - Eurogames started the game cafe mania, but even games like Life are a novelty there. Another reason is that most Koreans live under the same roof as other members of their family; renting table space at a cafe is a nice way to get out of the house & have a place to play with your friends. Both of these factors are less true in the US, although the not having a basement that can be dedicated to gaming is certainly something most folks in NYC and Seoul share.

Some things to add to this idea:

- RPGs aren't popular enough in Korea to make it work, but I think they'd be a great fit for a game cafe here. One of the problems that a cafe owner told me about was that he basically spends most of his store's expenses on personnel salaries teaching people to become gamers, and once they do so those gamers are ready to go buy games at a discount on the Internet and play them on their own; just having the table space isn't enough to keep them coming back to the cafe. An ongoing RPG campaign is a great return-business generator, and if you do living-campaign stuff (like having different groups exploring & changing the world all together) it could offer exciting advantages over playing a RPG at home that wouldn't depend on you needing to convince existing gamers that your GMing is superior to what they can do for themselves.

- Nevertheless, the Seoul model implies that you should be available to run as many different kinds of games as the store carries. Part of what you offer the store could be the fact that you're a member of every game company's demo program, like the Looney Labs team or Steve Jackson's MIB, and you bust your butt getting those companies to support gaming at the store. You might also be able to get some support (financial or barter) from those companies.

- To get your foot in the door, you might offer to work on commission for the game store - they don't have to pay you out of their budget, but if you create $200 of sales in an afternoon they ought to be willing to give you $20 or $40 of that. Again, you're not going to be able to make a living this way, but it'd build up your experience, demonstrate the possibilities to the game store, and be a fun way to spend a weekend.


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## Captain_Commando (Apr 12, 2009)

I've decided to try the business out. Other jobs will be pursued as the business is underway. Flexible hours for the GMing service will make it possible to pursue other sources of income.

I've collected both positive and negative criticism from each of the 6 forums on which I posted this brainstorming thread. A lot of insults but also a lot of insight, even from some of the insults.

There are profound differences between a pay-for-play campaign and a paid-by-the-hour GMing service. Perhaps the most important difference is flexibility.

Here's a new list. This might not be everything but it's a few steps forward from the first brainstorming list. Keep the comments and the suggestions coming.

1. The business is a DnD 4e GMing service paid by the hour. DnD 3.5e or Pathfinder service might be offered as well though 4e will remain the primary rules system used.
2. The cost might be $15/hour. <no tip mentioned> Too little or too much can drive away clients. The existence of a mandatory tip may cause problematic expectations. A 4-hour session split between 5 players would thus be the equivalent of a movie ticket in Manhattan. Special session packages may be offered at higher or lower rates.
3. The service offers 1-shot adventures (original pre-written, published, or custom). Custom adventures may have free prep or prep at an additional charge based on the amount of time and effort required to fulfill the client's request.
4. The service offers teaching games. This may include rules tutorials, game design tutorials (including monster and NPC design), plot writing tutorials, and at-table performance tutorials. Good for both players and aspiring game masters. Special games for math, science, or history tutoring could be offered.
5. The service offers special cooperative war games with DnD miniatures.
6. The service is sold on time and convenience as well as guaranteed quality.
7. Role-playing products could be sold or advertised at the end or during each session.
8. Snacks could be sold during sessions depending on the gaming location.
9. The service will have its own web site, not part of someone else's.
10. All original adventures are tested through the local DnD meetup group.
11. Local comic and gaming stores should be approached for cooperation. Product discounts, coupons for clients, store and service advertisement, and space reservation/rental may be discussed.
12. A menu of [gaming locations + location details] will be on the web site.
13. Special packages could be offered that may include food or renting a conference room at a hotel or space at a store.
14. Gaming products may be sold or advertised on the service website for extra income.
15. A standard survey should be prepared to find out client preferences and maximize their enjoyment. All sessions should be adapted or suggested based on the survey.
16. Breaks for bathroom or food will not be included in the bill. An itemized billing summary indicating time consumption might be necessary.
17. Extra effort must be taken to memorize story elements to provide a more professional level of performance.
18. Attire and behavior should be professional. A nice shirt and slacks if not a suit and tie.
19. A feedback or evaluation survey form could be given to willing clients with space for writing suggestions on how to improve the service or business model.
20. A minimum 24-hour notice will be given if I have to cancel a session. Any less and the next gaming session is offered for free.
21. Character generation will be offered as pregens, partially constructed characters, or up to the client to create. A character creation tutorial could be offered as part of the session.
22. Business networking is crucial to the service's success. Some companies might hire a known professional game master to run team-building exercises. Local Meetup groups will be marketed to including NYC DnD, Board Games and Card Games, SciFi Fantasy, and BizNet. New groups and companies should be marketed to every month if not daily/weekly. The previous attempt at marketing focused on college students and the marketed product was unmarketable.
23. Copies of all receipts for the service should be kept for tax purposes.
24. A contract with carefully written terms of agreement should be issued at the beginning of a session to prevent certain legal problems.
25. All gaming materials will be provided by me (clients can still bring their own though). This will include dungeon master's screen, dice, pencils, paper, dungeon tiles, printed handouts (including reference sheets), cinema stand, action tokens, and washable battle mat. Reference sheets should be no more than 5 pages. Cinema stand is yet to be tested but holds promise. Meticulous memorization of details/rules and innovative use of pre-tested game design tools (ex. battle challenges and moving terrain) will likely enhance the value of the service.
26. RPGA certification as a judge should be pursued. I'll be registering as a member on Wednesday, and the Herald test has been quickened. Higher level judge certification should be pursued as soon as possible. Having DMing experience recorded on the NYC DnD Meetup site is also helpful for attracting clients.
27. A compilation of play tested and refined adventures from the service will be offered to a game company for increased income.
28. A business relationship with a game company might be possible based on how much attention the service gains.
29. For packages including food, perhaps culinary/baking students might be approached for the promise of a share of the haul and/or in some cases a seat at the table and/or experience to add to their resumés and/or a free game session or product. NYC is loaded with culinary/baking students.
30. Professional web support may be possible. Web designers also have a meetup group. Web design students can always use more cash. Perhaps someone will trade web service in exchange for free game sessions or morbid curiosity or just for fun/experience.


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## kitsune9 (Apr 12, 2009)

Captain_Commando said:


> For those of you who are unaware, I'm a New Yorker who was about to start a horribly planned business called "Caravan of Blades" back in early March. The business was a pay-for-play Dungeons and Dragons 4e campaign. I wasn't thinking clearly. My father had recently passed away of a heart attack and the experience and aftermath were a bit traumatic (I discovered the body that night). I needed to get a job and picked a bad idea for making money.
> 
> Fortunately I put a stop to the horror on the first day when I snapped back to my senses.
> 
> ...




Captain,

Why not run game days and charge for it? For example, when Living Greyhawk was running, several gamers for in the Pale region would run con days at game stores or at a small hotel meeting room. They would get about 30-60 players for a weekend of gaming. The cost of registration would be about $12-$15 if I remember correctly per person, but they'd get in about six games.

Granted, you don't seem like someone who has the kind of money to start this up, but so let's scale it down a bit and make it just one day and see if you can get a meeting room from a community center or a library. Maybe you can partner with someone who can help pay for the costs of the meeting room while you DM. 

Order RPGA mods for Living FR or whatever the RPGA is doing these days and charge a flat rate fee for the module. Granted, you're going to be really busy to run three modules back-to-back (that's 12 hours right there with no breaks), but if you can manage it, you can probably get away to charge something like $10 per person for the day. 

Go to Costco and buy a mega pack of candy and sodas and charge something ridiculous like $1 a candy bar and $1.50 a soda (Gamers will buy, they always do).

The economies of scale usually work better if you offer more games over the weekend and have more GMs with you; however, crunch the numbers and see if you can make a profit on it out of a single day. If not, good luck and try something else. If so, go for it, because I'm sure there are lots of RPGA players who'd like to get their mods under their belts if they know there are organized events going on in their area (I went to them and so did lots of other players, so I know there was demand).

As for your resume and job hunting, I don't know your skills, but have you gone to your local unemployment office? They usually have an office that offers workshops on polishing your resume, interviewing, and placement services of their own. Another thing is through temp services to take anything. Of course, all levels of government are hiring and I'd check out your city, county, and state government websites, particularly if they got stimulus money for shovel-ready projects. 

Good luck.


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## catsclaw227 (Apr 12, 2009)

What's the target number of games you want to run in a week and for how many hours?  This is an important factor, because you should plan on spending 1:1 prep:gametime if you want a professional and well organized game.  

Will you be using preprinted, well-done maps in 1sq scale or just a dry-erase battlemap?

Will you be offering any special rewards for roleplaying or any discount cards for players that are repeat visitors?

What do you plan on budgeting for books and materials each month?


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## aboyd (Apr 12, 2009)

This:



Captain_Commando said:


> The business was a pay-for-play Dungeons and Dragons 4e campaign. I wasn't thinking clearly.



Has turned into this:



Captain_Commando said:


> I've decided to try the business out.



Again.  And followed by an OCD-like list of ideas/hopes/goals.  And yet nowhere in the list is a bullet point for "get hired by someone who pays my wages to do this."  It's all freelance or partnerships, still.

Until you acknowledge that you can only pull this off as a day job that some store owner pays you for, you're going to fail.  That's just my opinion, and even more cruelly, I wouldn't hold that opinion for others.  Just for you.  But I'm actually trying to _not_ be cruel, by giving you a sense of harsh reality.  If you can man-up to the truth, then you can _deal_ with the truth and find a way to succeed.  And _that_ is going to help you & your mom.

People don't show up for _free_ games sometimes.  The idea that you can show up in business attire and somehow it compels people to show up and _pay you..._ well... you're going to have the same experience that you had the first time... namely, _no one will show up._

You have to get a day job.

You have to get a day job.

You have to get a day job.

Luckily, game stores hire people.  Your day job can be at a game store.  They may even let you run some sessions while you're on the clock.  But it is nonetheless a day job.

You have to get a day job.


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## UngainlyTitan (Apr 12, 2009)

aboyd is spot on the money, you may be able to get paid to DM, but you are not going to make a living at it.     Principally because people do it for free and you are competing against them. You are only going to get to do it as a job if you can use DM'ing to add value to a game store or game cafe type establishment. The game cafe is an interesting idea but it would require quite a bit of capital to get it running. Also it would be a lot of non DM work because you are running a business also. Are you prepared for that?


In any case a significant amount of your time would be involved in non DM activity.


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## Captain_Commando (Apr 13, 2009)

aboyd said:


> This:
> 
> Has turned into this:
> 
> ...




This is NOT a pay-for-play campaign. Did you even read the thread through?

This is also NOT a replacement for a day job. I'm still job hunting while having this service up. It's not as easy to get a job in NYC as you may think. Most of what I find is in a different borough with lots of competition  especially because of layoffs. 

There are multiple sources of income in this business plan. My marketing strategy is completely different than what I tried with the pay-for-play campaign. These threads are also NOT part of my marketing strategy. They are for brainstorming. 

My mother rented out a couple of rooms so I don't need to make everything. That's why I'm looking for a part-time temporary job. I've got a book with 2 chapters done and notes for the rest of it. Within 2 months it'll be done and I'll have representation. Within another 2 months after that, I'll have an advance and things will be fine.

I just need to pull in a certain amount, less than a full living, to make sure we aren't evicted. I'm still job hunting and will able to continue do so because this buisness will be flexible in its hours. Prep time is much less because I'll likely be recycling many of the same adventures since it is NOT a pay-for-play campaign.


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## Matthan (Apr 13, 2009)

Captain_Commando said:


> My mother rented out a couple of rooms so I don't need to make everything. That's why I'm looking for a part-time temporary job. I've got a book with 2 chapters done and notes for the rest of it. Within 2 months it'll be done and I'll have representation. Within another 2 months after that, I'll have an advance and things will be fine.




I almost wish this was a joke (and it may well be), but on the off chance that you're serious, please don't pin all your plans on getting a book published.  The chances of that happening in the time frame that you're describing is remarkably slim.  

When I read the above quote, I see someone who may make unwise decisions thinking their break is right around the corner.  You cannot fall into that trap.

You can be a writer.  But that is a craft that takes talent, skill, dedication, time, and perseverance.  Every writer that I've ever met or listened to tells stories of months or years of rejection notices before finally breaking through.  Be realistic for the sake of your family and commit yourself to your job search.  Learn some interview techniques (google or check your local library).  Get in a situation where you can support yourself so you can spend your free time pursuing your dreams.  Start saving money so that when the time is right, you can quit your job and pursue your dream.  You can do this, just have some foresight.

As for the DMing, you may be able to occasionally run game days or something for some spare cash, but the bulk of your time would be better spent in the job search.

Honestly, what's your dream?  Do you want to DM the rest of your life?  Do you want to write?  If you are going to do anything creative, you need to earn enough income to support yourself while getting your creative career off the ground.  That means a steady job (even at Burger King).  That also means that there is a good chance that you will be at a job long term (a year maybe two).  But it gives you the means to pursue your dream.  Just think about it.


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## aboyd (Apr 13, 2009)

Captain_Commando said:


> This is NOT a pay-for-play campaign. Did you even read the thread through?



Well, I... I must have missed that part, because obviously the plan will work now!  I should have seen it.



Captain_Commando said:


> I've got a book with 2 chapters done and notes for the rest of it. Within 2 months it'll be done and I'll have representation. Within another 2 months after that, I'll have an advance and things will be fine.



Wow.  So, you're all set then, and not at all flailing about in desperation.  Good.


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## Tav_Behemoth (Apr 13, 2009)

ardoughter said:


> you may be able to get paid to DM, but you are not going to make a living at it. Principally because people do it for free




A good rule of thumb is that people will pay for professional GM services, or for the experience of playing a RPG, only if it's offered as part of something else they're accustomed to pay for. 

People pay for someone to educate their kids & give them a safe place to go after school and over the summer, so they'll pay Becky Thomas & her Roleplay Workshop GMs to run games.

People pay for full-service vacation packages in Hawaii, so it seems like a reasonable bet that they'll pay Yax to run a game while they're there.

People pay for walking tours, so they'll pay Ken Hite to use that experience as the basis for a Call of Cthulu session.

People give money to charities, so they'd bid on the chance to play with Dave Arneson in a charity auction.

People pay to gamble, so D&D for Cash can generate some income for its GM.

People pay more for coffee if it's in a pleasant social setting with nice places to sit, so they'll pay for time in a gaming cafe.

The two that are most relevant here are:

People will pay to experience Dave Arneson or Ken Hite's creativity through their game design and writing, so they'll also pay to experience it in a RPG session. 

People will pay to go to a gaming convention, so both the people who run games at conventions and the convention organizers can be compensated somehow (although it's usually the organizer who actually gets paid, while the GM typically gets free stuff).

The problems with the first of these is that it's extremely difficult to make any kind of a livelihood with game design or SF/fantasy writing, much less to parlay that into a pro-GM gig. The number of people who earn enough in these fields to make a decent living doing it full-time is similar to the number of professional astronauts or ballerinas. I'm not saying you can't become an astronaut, but you've got to have a realistic understanding of the challenges involved. You can no more expect to have an advance for a novel in two months or two years than you can expect to be in space at that time, and I think you're also deluding yourself about how measly that advance is likely to be.

The problems with the second of these is that the margins are small. If you divide the amount they spend on their trip by the number of hours of gaming enjoyment they get out of it, after you subtract the cost of the other services they're paying for you're not left with a lot to cover the GMing part of things. And people only go to Gen Con once a year.


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## ehren37 (Apr 13, 2009)

Captain_Commando said:


> I've decided to try the business out. Other jobs will be pursued as the business is underway.




If I may offer some advice, unless you're still in high school, please go after the other jobs as a priority, even if the DM for hire gig works out. The longer you go without stable work, the harder it will be for you to get a job. You're going to have a hard time explaining this one on any interview, and to most people, its going to look like a big gap in your employment record. 

If this works out for you, great. Just get (and dont quit) your day job.


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## ehren37 (Apr 13, 2009)

Captain_Commando said:


> 18. Attire and behavior should be professional. A nice shirt and slacks if not a suit and tie.




I'd recommend a tux, or on casual fridays, a tuxedo t-shirt.


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## Janx (Apr 13, 2009)

if you need money, everything you do should lead to making money in as direct a fashion as possible.

Consider how many hours of prep work it takes to run a 4-5 hour session.  Add those together, and that's the total time cost to make the money you get for that gig.

Compare that to flipping burgers for $8 an hour (or more I hear).  The prep-time to flip burgers is basically travel time to get to work.  

At your pricing, you should find that flipping burgers is more efficient, leaving you more time to work on "what you really want to be doing."

Not to bash you, but when you say you think you botched an interview for BK, how does that indicate you have the communication skills to be an exceptional GM.  I do give you credit for being aware that you botched the interview, some folks aren't even alert to that.  The point though is, to be a good GM, you should have hireable attributes.  Not being able to land a job isn't a promising sign.

As a whole. the Pay-to-Play plan is risky (and it is Pay to Play, as in paying money to play).  There's too much competition of free GMs, even if I'm surprised that they don't charge for it, given the scarcity of good GMs.  You will need to be lucky to get an audience that is willing to pay.  That's hard.


If I were going to do a pay-to-play system, I'd go with a flat rate, and write my material to have an estimated duration of 4-5 hours.  I'd do a flat rate, because I know my work level increases as head-count goes up.  I also don't want to be bothered with managing working minutes, to prove my bill is correct.  I'd also screen/interview clients, because I'd want to build a party that can play together (and that I can stand working for).  I'd make sure they get the right level of "munchkinism" because frankly, the players are paying me to have a good time, not slog through poverty and depressing realisim, unless they actually say they want that (which is the point of interviewing them).

The reason I don't do a pay-to-play system is that I'd need to be networked to the exact audience that is willing and able to pay.  That's harder to find.  The people who are paid-GMs have lucked out on finding that audience, and I would bet most of them were ASKED to do it.

We all would love to do something with our hobby and get paid for it.  But the fact is, we can't all have dream jobs.  Somebody has to flip the burgers, haul the trash, and scoop the poop.

Your best money-making bet is to find something people ARE asking for, and if you can deliver it, do so.  That's how you'll get paid.  If nobody's asking for a GM, with an "I'll pay him" clause, then it's not a likely market.


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## Piratecat (Apr 13, 2009)

Captain_Commando said:


> I just need to pull in a certain amount, less than a full living, to make sure we aren't evicted. I'm still job hunting and will able to continue do so because this buisness will be flexible in its hours. Prep time is much less because I'll likely be recycling many of the same adventures since it is NOT a pay-for-play campaign.



Sadly, that isn't how the writing and publishing industry work. Once you finish a book, you're awfully lucky if you even get a rejection letter six months after you convince a publisher to look at it. I strongly recommend you read the second half of Janet Evonovich's _How I Write_ to get a good, realistic view of the submission process and the time involved. I know excellent authors, ones who write for a living in their day jobs, who have four potential novels out to publishers and have never heard back on any of them.

Considering this, I think the _only_ realistic way to get paid for running D&D is to strike up a deal with a local game store owner. Convince him that you'll run superior games for his customers several times a week, and have _him_ pay you (under the assumption he makes money by getting customers into the game store). I still don't think it's feasible, as volunteers will always be willing to run games for free, but it may be the best hope.

Incidentally, if I were going to try to do this, I'd also get a day job and use the game store gig to supplement my income. It just has no stability or long-term prospects.


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## Piratecat (Apr 13, 2009)

Captain_Commando said:


> 2. The cost might be $15/hour. <no tip mentioned> Too little or too much can drive away clients. The existence of a mandatory tip may cause problematic expectations. A 4-hour session split between 5 players would thus be the equivalent of a movie ticket in Manhattan. Special session packages may be offered at higher or lower rates.



When you pay for a movie ticket, you're subsidizing the millions of dollars that went into making that movie. More importantly, your buddy Bernie can't make a movie himself.

Sorry to be discouraging, but realistically if my group has a choice between spending $75 on a DM for five hours or buying both lunch and 2 hardback gaming books that one of us will use, I know which we would choose.


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## Tav_Behemoth (Apr 13, 2009)

Janx said:


> The people who are paid-GMs have lucked out on finding that audience, and I would bet most of them were ASKED to do it.




When Becky Thomas was a teacher, she had her students do a cartography assignment so she could work on a map for her home campaign & use it as an example. Some of her students noticed her still working on it after the assignment was over and asked her about it; when they heard it was for a game they said "We want to play!" which led to an after-school activity that led to the Roleplay Workshop. Similarly, I've heard of a game designer who was approached by his fans, and I asked Ken Hite to run the Otherworld Excursions walking tour.

On the other hand, JSimpson answered a call (at EN World IIRC) for a pro GM - the fact that it was in his area counts as luck, certainly - and although I don't know for sure I assume that Dave Arneson approached the auction organizers and offered to run a game, secure in the knowledge that people would bid on it. If so, he may have been more willing to do so because it was for a charity rather than his personal profit. As threads like this highlight, the idea of a professional GM is controversial.

Whether it's because of a stigma attached to the idea or because recruiting an audience and organizing an event for them is a lot of work they're not interested in doing, I can confirm that most of the gaming creators I contacted with Otherworlds were willing to do pro-GM gigs when asked, but aren't willing to actively pursue setting them up for themselves.


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## UngainlyTitan (Apr 13, 2009)

Tav_Behemoth said:


> Whether it's because of a stigma attached to the idea or because recruiting an audience and organizing an event for them is a lot of work they're not interested in doing, I can confirm that most of the gaming creators I contacted with Otherworlds were willing to do pro-GM gigs when asked, but aren't willing to actively pursue setting them up for themselves.




I do not believe there is any stigma, as such, but a short time perusing these boards reveal that people play D&D with many different values of what they consider fun and the same applies to other rpgs. Running a rpg is a fair bit of work, even if you are just running a published module. It is not fun if you and your players are not on the same page. Now, imagine doing it for money. 

Also consider, what happens in the event of a rules dispute?


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## Captain_Commando (Apr 13, 2009)

I'll see about adding RPGA game days to the business. I RSVPed for an LFR session this wednesday and hopefully the DM will have a membership application and card waiting for me. The Herald test is supposed to give quicker certification now so I should be able to run RPGA modules soon. Thanks kitsune9.

A reminder that this is on the side while job-hunting. I can cancel or reschedule a hired session if it conflicts with a job interview.

On the WotC forum, it was suggested that I approach old gamers. They might be particularly open to hiring a young person to prep and run games for them while they sit back and drink their coffee. It was also suggested that I add writing for a client's campaign to the service. If a group won't hire me to run games, they might hire me to flesh out their game world.

The more options I can add to the business, the more likely I can get hired for it.

Not every potential group has a game master or have the patience or inclination to just wait for one that fits their schedule to become available. Perhaps for just the one week or month, nobody has the time to prep a session. I might get hired just the one time by a particular group in between game masters or regularly prepped games. There may be enough of this in NYC to at least get me a couple of sessions a week. It's a big community and there are beginners popping up daily. Also, if I can sell my services as a team-building exercise, perhaps I can get a regular session contract with a company.

It's a workable side business if I can network with the right groups. I may be the only one offering a schedule that is so flexible and offering the "full experience" at the same time. Most groups go where the game master is setting up. I'm setting up where ever the group hires me to set up. It's a huge amount of convenience for the potential client.

On the writing thing, I do have a publisher contact at Crown Publishing (a subsidiary of Random House) who may be able to fast track my novel. This was one of the last cool things my father was able to do for me.


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## Captain_Commando (Apr 13, 2009)

ardoughter said:


> I do not believe there is any stigma, as such, but a short time perusing these boards reveal that people play D&D with many different values of what they consider fun and the same applies to other rpgs. Running a rpg is a fair bit of work, even if you are just running a published module. It is not fun if you and your players are not on the same page. Now, imagine doing it for money.
> 
> Also consider, what happens in the event of a rules dispute?




The hiring process will include a survey of the client's preferences to help me adapt the session to the group's enjoyment.

I'll have rules errata with me and for anything else I can come up with a semi-plausible solution that the group can accept. I'm actually good at improvising that sort of thing. 

For those disputing my ability to act based on the job interview, I couldn't lie to hide wanting a temporary job instead of a long-term job. It would have been dishonest. It's different at the gaming table when everyone knows you're not really the characters you portray. There's a line between performance acting and fraud that I will not cross.


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## Tav_Behemoth (Apr 13, 2009)

Piratecat said:


> realistically if my group has a choice between spending $75 on a DM for five hours or buying both lunch and 2 hardback gaming books that one of us will use, I know which we would choose.




Yep, that's why you're not the target market. The problem with using RPG forums to reach potential customers is that just about everyone who's reading this would have no problem finding a non-pay-to-play game if they were in NYC. The trick is reaching the people who are so out of the loop that having a gaming experience pre-packaged for them is a service worth paying for, and it's a difficult trick because it's hard to reach people who are that out of it! I certainly never found a good solution to that solution.

On the other hand, Piratecat, you definitely are in the category of creators whose fans would be willing to pay to be part a RPG session you ran - I think this was said earlier in one of these threads, and I heard it from folks I surveyed for Otherworld Excursions as well. If you put together a game plus susequent story-hour writeup, offered it at a time & place where a lot of gamers could do it (e.g. Gen Con), and maybe donated the proceeds to your favorite charity, I think you'd get an enthusiastic response.


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## Joshua Randall (Apr 13, 2009)

Wow. Between the PDF brouhaha and the revival of Captain Commando... it's like when you get so many great presents that you kind of want to cry tears of joy.


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## Piratecat (Apr 13, 2009)

Huh. Tav, I may think about a charity game for GenCon 2010. Interesting idea.

Captain_Commando, I certainly wish you the best, and I hope it works. Nothing would make me happier than for you to prove me wrong.


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## gizmo33 (Apr 13, 2009)

Captain_Commando said:


> On the WotC forum, it was suggested that I approach old gamers. They might be particularly open to hiring a young person to prep and run games for them while they sit back and drink their coffee.




Those guys were so right.  And that's just the tip of the iceberg.  As an old gamer I have a number of special needs that could be catered to by someone who was spry and motivated:

1.  crawling into narrow spaces to retrieve lost dice (d20s don't grow on trees and I can only afford so many on a fixed income)
2.  protecting my share of the pizza that we ordered - as a DM I am often easily distracted and short-changed in the process
3.  carrying heavy RPG tomes to gaming sessions (this will become more of an issue as 4E ages along with me)
4.  looking up rules in the book
5.  making sure people aren't cheating on their dice rolls (requires above-average eyesight and reputation for honesty.  candidate must bring their own taser)
6.  keeping notes on what transpired during the game session.  Thorough documentation may include periodic photographs of the battlemat.
7.  taking over DMing when I get angry at the players and need a break
8.  take over a PC when a player doesn't show up
9.  Park the players cars for them when they do show up.  Dressing up and parking the car in character would be a bonus.

I'd be able to enjoy my coffee a lot more if I knew this stuff was taken care of.


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## Captain_Commando (Apr 14, 2009)

Piratecat said:


> Huh. Tav, I may think about a charity game for GenCon 2010. Interesting idea.
> 
> Captain_Commando, I certainly wish you the best, and I hope it works. Nothing would make me happier than for you to prove me wrong.




If you run a charity game, I'd like to suggest donating to the St. Jude Children's Research Hospital.

Thank you. Considering the extremely rare nature of what I'm doing and the fact that there is indeed precedence (also extremely rare), it might be a toss up. Maybe the old gamers will take pity on a poor young game master. 

Even if I only see a trickle of income from this, it's better than nothing. An online writing jobs site was noted by a poster. Maybe I'll be able to get something out of that.


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## Flatus Maximus (Apr 14, 2009)

I love this thread so much, I wanna have its baby.


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## catsclaw227 (Apr 14, 2009)

gizmo33 said:


> As an old gamer I have a number of special needs that could be catered to by someone who was spry and motivated:
> 
> 1.  crawling into narrow spaces to retrieve lost dice (d20s don't grow on trees and I can only afford so many on a fixed income)
> 2.  protecting my share of the pizza that we ordered - as a DM I am often easily distracted and short-changed in the process
> ...



My goodness!  A DM/player personal assistant.... Our group would pay a 14yr old $5-$6 an hour to do this for us every 2 weeks. They might earn anywhere from $40-$50 bucks on a Saturday.

And you can recruit young gamers that way!

Edit:  I just realized that, without the quote, this looks awful creepy.


----------



## Longtooth Studios (Apr 14, 2009)

Email me your address and I will send you a set of boards to help. Try and promote them at your games, and I will help more if it leads to sales.

Nothing wrong with a dream, where would we be if our founding fathers (Gary and Dave) had not had a dream all those years ago. 

Keep looking for a day job, work your butt off, but keep dreaming too.


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## Captain_Commando (Apr 14, 2009)

Longtooth Studios said:


> Email me your address and I will send you a set of boards to help. Try and promote them at your games, and I will help more if it leads to sales.
> 
> Nothing wrong with a dream, where would we be if our founding fathers (Gary and Dave) had not had a dream all those years ago.
> 
> Keep looking for a day job, work your butt off, but keep dreaming too.




Thanks. From the pics I saw I'll definitely give them a try.

I'm thinking of ideas on how to further build up a good reputation as a game master. One idea is a DnD tournament. I could design a series of encounters/dungeon levels based on the battle challenge concept I'd been  fiddling with. Once I get Herald certification maybe I can get it approved as an RPGA event with the help of other RPGA judges in the area.


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## Vyvyan Basterd (Apr 14, 2009)

Jack99 said:


> I am not sure I'd want to hire one that applies for a job at BK.




I'm not sure I'd want players that had to hire a DM.


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## gizmo33 (Apr 14, 2009)

Vyvyan Basterd said:


> I'm not sure I'd want players that had to hire a DM.




I agree - walking into a room full of strangers who drove away their last DM would be a little scary.  The set of players I do know are bad enough.  It might help to work with some sort of pimp-like person that can collect money and deal with the personality issues that arise.


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## Captain_Commando (Apr 14, 2009)

gizmo33 said:


> I agree - walking into a room full of strangers who drove away their last DM would be a little scary.  The set of players I do know are bad enough.  It might help to work with some sort of pimp-like person that can collect money and deal with the personality issues that arise.




The potential promise of money gives me courage. Anyway, such groups are a minority among those I'm going to be marketing to. 

Chaot at RPGnet got my foot in the door with a temp agency. God bless whoever Chaot is.

It's not a 100% guarantee for a job so I'll keep checking job ads and setting up the game mastering business on the side.

I figured out some of the numbers so I'll share this with all the brainstorming contributors. If a temp job doesn't pay enough, having game mastering on the side might add up with the job to meet my requirements. My mother rented out a couple of rooms and my brother is helping a little so I just need to make the difference.

My target is a minimum of $900 a month.  

With a somewhat generous estimate, this is the level the business would have to perform at to make ends meet if I didn't have other sources of income. This doesn't include printer ink and paper and other materials that I have in sufficient quantity for the time being.

30-day Metrocard = $81 (unlimited public transportation)
$40 budgeted for food expenses per week x 4 = $160
$40 budgeted for xerox copies and business cards.

20 hours a week x 4 weeks x $15 = $1200
monthly income with regular games only = $959
I'd have a $19 monthly surplus.

If I were to raise it to $20/hour and achieve less hours per week...

15 hours a week x 4 weeks x $20 = $1200
monthly income with regular games only = $959
I'd have a $19 monthly surplus.

Keeping in mind a manhattan movie ticket costs $12 for an average 2 hour film and a broadway ticket commonly sells at $200 for a 3 hour show...

****
IRS Publication 501 (2008)
IF your filing status is...single
AND at the end of 2008 you were...*under 65
THEN file a return if your gross income was at least...**$8,950
***

I won't likely have to file a tax return unless I get a really good advance for my novel. I'll keep records in case that happens. The current average advance for a novel is about $10,000. A particularly marketable novel will have a good chance of getting more.


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## catsclaw227 (Apr 14, 2009)

Taking a quick glance at your numbers above....

The $40/wk for 4 weeks comes out to about $5.33 of food per day for 30 days.  I can't eat on only $5.33 per day for a full month.  Remember, you need to keep your mental acuity up and eating poorly doesn't help.

Did you already consider that you will do about 20 hours of prep for every 20 hours of gaming, if you want this to be professional enough for people to want to pay for?

Also, you show $81 + $160 + $40 = $281 in expenses every month.  $1200 - $281 != $959.  You may want to check your math.

You will also have some additional expenses that you might not expect or cannot predict.  Office supplies, new backpack or carrying device, RPG books or PDFs, laminating, etc.  I would build in AT LEAST $30-$40 per month of "Murphy's Law" expenses.


Regarding the publishing advance:
Getting a $10,000 advance to write a book when you have never been professionaly published before is a pipe dream.  Ask any professional writer.

Do you have a list of articles/essays/short stories that you have had published professionally?


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## Mournblade94 (Apr 14, 2009)

Captain_Commando said:


> The potential promise of money gives me courage. Anyway, such groups are a minority among those I'm going to be marketing to.
> 
> Chaot at RPGnet got my foot in the door with a temp agency. God bless whoever Chaot is.
> 
> ...




Do you have a college degree?  If you have at least 60 credits you can substitute teach.  SInce substitute teaching is the best babysitting job ever you can do your prep work in the classroom as long as you can keep order.


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## Vyvyan Basterd (Apr 14, 2009)

gizmo33 said:


> I agree - walking into a room full of strangers who drove away their last DM would be a little scary.  The set of players I do know are bad enough.  It might help to work with some sort of pimp-like person that can collect money and deal with the personality issues that arise.




It may seem we are making light of this CC, but it is something to consider. People that have trouble finding a group may have been kicked out of other groups for being a "problem player." We've all seen the threads around here. A problem player may feel entitled to stay in the group because he is paying for your services. And the other players may feel cheated because their paid experience is being ruined by said problem player. You really have to consider how you would handle such situations.

I speak from (volunteer) experience. I ran regualr games at my friends hobby shop. His rule was to allow anyone who wanted to play into games run in his club. I met some good friends, but I also encountered more problematic players than I have ever before or since running my game there. These were people whose friends couldn't stand gaming with, so they were forced to find groups elsewhere. It's hard to walk the line between being firm about disruption and the realm of insulting a fellow gamer. I did it for the sake of my friend's store and you'll be forced to do so for the sake of your business.


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## Woas (Apr 14, 2009)

Here's an open ended question and mind you, I got about three quarters through page one so if it has already been asked and discussed, please just let me know and I'll go back and read it.

What happens if the paying customer doesn't like a particular rules call or outcome that you as GM make?

For example, at a restaurant if I get a poor meal or it hasn't been cooked correctly, or for any reason I find that it is not satisfactory I can ask for a new one or give it back and not pay.

Say while playing my character dies based on the interpretations of the rules you as the GM uphold. What if I say no-way.I ain't paying for this outcome... to 'lose'. What makes it so that people aren't just paying you to stroke their ego and let them sunder the Earth to oblivion and not just leave anytime it looks like the player character(s) are losing?

Yea know what I'm saying? I'm not sure if I'm making myself real clear though now that I'm typing it, I'm sorry. The problem is clear in my head but not translating as well as I'd want it to...


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## Captain_Commando (Apr 15, 2009)

catsclaw227 said:


> Taking a quick glance at your numbers above....
> 
> The $40/wk for 4 weeks comes out to about $5.33 of food per day for 30 days.  I can't eat on only $5.33 per day for a full month.  Remember, you need to keep your mental acuity up and eating poorly doesn't help.
> 
> ...




I have a bunch of bookbags. I can borrow RPG books. I've got leftover office supplies that were my father's. Also, I'm eating off of food stamps at home. When I go out to a session or a job place is when I might have to spend money on food.

The prep percentage of my time will be much less in the long run if the same modules are run repeatedly for different clients.

I noticed where I made a mistake about the advance. 10k is the average advance. 5k to 6k is the average first time advance. It's still enough to keep things stable for 6 months. That is the important thing for me.

average 1st time advance
http://www.funtrivia.com/askft/Question83692.html

average advance
http://jwikert.typepad.com/the_average_joe/2005/04/whats_the_avera.html

As for character death, there will be pregens that can be used as backup and I can let a player spend an action point to survive somehow. I will spin the situation with improvised narrative to keep the players happy. I'm not a tyrant with the rules. It's a storytelling service. I'm there to coordinate and present a story, not haggle with the client. I can make up rules bends that make sense on the fly. Also, on the client survey will be questions about how the client(s) wish to handle character death.


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## aboyd (Apr 15, 2009)

Captain_Commando said:


> average 1st time advance
> On average how much does an author make per book sold?
> 
> average advance
> Joe Wikert's Publishing 2020 Blog: Whatâ€™s the Average Advance?



Average # of times that awesome authors were rejected before getting their advances:

John Creasy - 774 rejections

Alex Haley - 200 rejections

Mary Higgins Clark - 40 rejections

Louis L’Amour - 200 rejections

TOTAL: 1214 rejections, 4 authors

AVERAGE: 303 rejections before work is accepted for publication

Hope you're in this for the long haul.


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## catsclaw227 (Apr 15, 2009)

Captain_Commando said:


> I have a bunch of bookbags. I can borrow RPG books. I've got leftover office supplies that were my father's. Also, I'm eating off of food stamps at home. When I go out to a session or a job place is when I might have to spend money on food.



OK, but you better budget for additional unseen expenses.  They occur, no matter how well you think you've planned.



Captain_Commando said:


> The prep percentage of my time will be much less in the long run if the same modules are run repeatedly for different clients.



How many different clients do you think you will have, and do you plan on repeat business?  If so, you will still have a lot of prep to do.



Captain_Commando said:


> I noticed where I made a mistake about the advance. 10k is the average advance. 5k to 6k is the average first time advance. It's still enough to keep things stable for 6 months. That is the important thing for me.
> 
> average 1st time advance
> On average how much does an author make per book sold?
> ...



Keep in mind, this advance is paid IF you have a book that someone actually wants to publish.  Not everyone will become a Chris Paolini.

Did you now that most people submit stuff for years before they get a novel published for the first time?  

Do you have any writing credentials or other writing credits you can show us, so that we can give you some feedback?  Have you taken any writing classes or workshops to help improve your craft?

You mentioned that you dad left you an "in" at a publishing house.  Have they guaranteed this advance, or do you have to submit like everyone else?


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## Janx (Apr 15, 2009)

On the whole "lying at the job interview", I think you have misconceptions about how to do an interview.  It's not about saying false things.  It's about not emphasizing attributes that are negative.  You wanted a short term job. They wanted a long term hire.  Don't emphasize that.  Don't bring it up.  If they ask "are you looking to work here long term", answer with "I want to work.  If you hire me, I will give you my best."  It's a stupid question for a fast food joint to expect a hire to want to work there long term.  NOBODY really wants to flip burgers for a career.  But you can't point that out to them, or you'll appear hostile.  You also can't say "no."  So find a way to say yes, do the job, and quit when a better one appears.  Just like everyone else.

I would advise taking a serious look at what folks are saying on getting into writing.  You haven't answered the question about your writing experience.  Yet, you seem confident that you have a sure deal.  That is unwise.  There is no sure deal until the check is in your hand, and even then, you need to deposit it.

If you're going to be writing adventures, consider publising them.  You will get writing experience, and increase the value of the work you're doing.  If you're good enough to get paid to GM, your material ought to be good enough to publish.

If you have no starting capital, avoid doing anything that requires it.  Don't borrow books to run games with strangers who might wreck borrowed stuff.  Don't get overboard in printing and prop costs.  You gotta do stuff on the cheap.  A well run game doesn't need tons of stuff, it just needs to be well run, and you can do that off of hand-written notes in a notebook, until you get funds to improve your tools.

I think you already get the point about running a game where the players win.  It should appear to be a challenge to the players, but ultimately the players win.  There are no losers.  This can be hard to do (especially for bad players), but it is in your best interest to deliver ENTERTAINMENT.  That doesn't mean a monty haul stupid game.  It just means that your careful to make sure the player has a good time. Since D&D isn't a competition, this isn't a violation of its premise.

Keep track of ALL your expenses and income for this business.  You won't know if you cross some "need to file" threshold until you cross it, in which case, you'll need everything.  Even if it fails, you can claim your expenses for the business, which might help when you get your replacement job later in the tax year.

A good business plan includes an exit strategy.  A plan for failure, which includes metrics for signalling failure, and how to shut down the business (selling assets, etc).  Only foolish people are against planning for failure, as jinxing their chances.  If you have contingencies and failure plans, you have a stronger handle on how to avoid or mitigate them.  Failures happen more often than success.


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## crazy_cat (Apr 15, 2009)

catsclaw227 said:


> Do you have any writing credentials or other writing credits you can show us, so that we can give you some feedback?  Have you taken any writing classes or workshops to help improve your craft?



There's this thread, and the previous one, that we can look to for examples. 

Based on these I'm guessing Captain_Commando is either a comedy writing genius who has played us all with an epic troll; or one of the most naive persons to ever post on the interweb. Juries still out.


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## Grimstaff (Apr 15, 2009)

This is a funny thread. 

Thanks, Commando.


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## Captain_Commando (Apr 15, 2009)

crazy_cat said:


> There's this thread, and the previous one, that we can look to for examples.
> 
> Based on these I'm guessing Captain_Commando is either a comedy writing genius who has played us all with an epic troll; or one of the most naive persons to ever post on the interweb. Juries still out.




I choose the third. I've got advantages most other first time authors do not.

I spent years working on this book not just to figure out a good story but how to design it as a marketing goldmine. I wrote it from both an artistic perspective and a practical perspective. Getting my publisher contact to take a look will be relatively easy (since our families are on friendly terms with each other). I just need an agent for representation. There's more but this is not relevant to the thread.

Anyway back to the main topic, I was wondering how hardcore some living campaign players might be about advancing their characters as quickly as possible. I know that MMO players can end up leveling for an inordinate number of hours. As part of my services offered I was thinking of making the current LFR modules in my region available for play. If someone missed the last regular game or can't show up on the day that it is held, then my business would give a viable alternative. 

It would make it a lot easier for NYC visitors to adventure in the local region and for local living players to advance at their leisure.


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## timbannock (Apr 15, 2009)

You talk alot about marketing, you definitely have visibility here and on RPG.net's forums...but where else?  You are working in NYC for people who live/play in NYC...how are you getting your name out to people specifically in that location?

And as for your book, you don't think other people have written books that they worked on for years, and believed would be marketable in several ways?  One of my best friends is busting his butt on a book (and has been for a couple years now) that uses years of his research, life experiences, etc.  And frankly, he's got a snowball's chance in Hell of getting anywhere with it.

More power to him (and you) for doing it, but there's no guarantees with novels, ESPECIALLY in the digitial age.  You know how many fantasy novels come out in a single week?  Guess how many of those are purchased, and by how many people?  And even if you have guarantees, remember that an Advance is something that's worked out through contracts.  That money isn't necessarily yours to do with what thou wilt...

And paying it back if you muss up that first novel is not something you'll look forward to.


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## Captain_Commando (Apr 15, 2009)

neuronphaser said:


> You talk alot about marketing, you definitely have visibility here and on RPG.net's forums...but where else?  You are working in NYC for people who live/play in NYC...how are you getting your name out to people specifically in that location?




Meetup.com and meetups though meetup.com are how I'm going to be concentrating most of my marketing (not all but most) this time around.

Business networking, sci fi fantasy, anime, DnD, old gamers, etc.

You can see for yourself how many thousands of people are members of groups in NYC. 

If I offer a good variety of services, I might at least get 1 or 2 clients a week, which is better than making no income at all. If I can sell as a team-building exercise maybe I'll get a monthly contract with one or more local companies to show up at the workplace. I won't be sitting around in 1 place waiting for customers so I can hunt for jobs while the service is up.


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## Noumenon (Apr 15, 2009)

Nobody here has said "Yeah, I'd pay for that" or "Wish you were by me."  I'd like to say I'd try it, once.  We don't have quite enough people in our gaming group, and DMing is a little too much work for me, and I'm a new DM and would really like to see other people's style.  If it worked out, I could play every week instead of every month.

Advertising would be the tough part for finding people like me.  Also, all the people in my group would have to find the $8/$15, including the unemployed guy and the guy who doesn't want to try 4E.  I would treat them the first time, though.

I wonder if this would work better online?  Should be easier to advertise and to get a group together.  I'm in rural Wisconsin, so I can't be part of your target market in real life.


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## Joshua Randall (Apr 15, 2009)

crazy_cat said:


> Captain_Commando is either a comedy writing genius who has played us all with an epic troll



Do you think Vegas will give me odds on this?


----------



## Drkfathr1 (Apr 15, 2009)

Joshua Randall said:


> Do you think Vegas will give me odds on this?




Yes. 

You can get odds on pretty much anything in Vegas. 


Ahhhhhhh Vegas. 

Can't wait to read that book.


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## catsclaw227 (Apr 15, 2009)

Captain_Commando said:


> I spent years working on this book not just to figure out a good story but how to design it as a marketing goldmine. I wrote it from both an artistic perspective and a practical perspective. Getting my publisher contact to take a look will be relatively easy (since our families are on friendly terms with each other). I just need an agent for representation. There's more but this is not relevant to the thread.



But, you see, it IS relevant to this thread.  You are talking about being a ProDM to support the bills until you get your advance from your book.

You seem unreasonably confident that you will get your advance, yet piles and piles of evidence states otherwise.  Just because your families were on friendly terms doesn't mean squat.  I am on friendly terms with lots of people, but if their child asked me to give them $5,000 advance to develop a website as a consultant for my company, I would absolutely need to see a body of work they have already done, and if it isn't up to the quality that I need to satisfy MY clients, I say sorry, but no thanks.

You CAN'T rely on your father's old contacts. You SHOULDN'T rely on them. The business world is much more harsh than I think you realize.

The ProDM stuff can't be your fall back until you "get your advance".  You should find a real JOB and then the ProDM AND your book will be your fall back.

For the sake of your mom, and your family, don't count on the book advance.  There's likely a 95+% chance you won't get one.  It takes years to get published.

Have you had your big book idea vetted yet?  Have you gotten advice from a publishing professional yet?  You really need to be published in a periodical first.  Get some short stories published.  Get some fiction published at WOTC or KQ or something like that.  Get Published First.

Anyway, have you put together a group yet?  do you even have a single paying group?  Get that too.  Get that and run them for 2-3 sessions first.  Survey them after the session, sending an email.  Find out what worked and what didn't.  Do. Some. Market. Research.

Don't just assume that, because it sounds plausible in your head, it is a plausible venture.

I would love to see the results of the survey.


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## Olaf the Stout (Apr 16, 2009)

This thread is just one giant facepalm!

[smacks forehead]

Olaf the Stout


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## illwizard (Apr 16, 2009)

Well,

I'm going to side with the minority and say good luck to you- people here seem to be quick to judge someone they know nothing about, despite your claims.

And for what it's worth, most of the best players and DM's I've gamed with, have worked fast food joints and worse. No shame in that, and certainly not an indication of their intelligence or otherwise. 

Peace!


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## Captain_Commando (Apr 16, 2009)

catsclaw227 said:


> The ProDM stuff can't be your fall back until you "get your advance".  You should find a real JOB and then the ProDM AND your book will be your fall back.
> 
> Anyway, have you put together a group yet?  do you even have a single paying group?  Get that too.  Get that and run them for 2-3 sessions first.  Survey them after the session, sending an email.  Find out what worked and what didn't.  Do. Some. Market. Research.




It's not a fall back. It's a side business while I'm looking for a job. The numbers I gave are the amount of success that would bring things to a stable situation if a job doesn't become available in that time. I expect half of those numbers when everything is up. That's maybe 1 or 2 days a week. The rest of those days plus the other days of the week are spent job hunting. Some income is better than no income.

I've already started testing material using the meetups of the local meetup group. I'm considering hosting free or reduced rate games ($3-5 an hour) for a week or two aside from the meetup stuff I'm doing for free to fine tune my services. By the time that's done, the website will be complete and the business will be ready.


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## Captain_Commando (Apr 17, 2009)

To the threads still being posted on:

I'm going to need a title for the business website and something to call myself. I'm open to suggestions.

I was thinking something along the lines of 'social game coordinator' instead of 'dungeon master for hire' or 'game master for hire'. I need something that sounds professional and doesn't limit me too much on the options of service I can provide.

On the business cards I'll need to make for business networking, a service/job title could make or break.


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## Hereticus (Apr 17, 2009)

Captain_Commando said:


> I'm going to need a title for the business website and something to call myself. I'm open to suggestions.




How about "Advanced Role Playing Solutions".

"Advanced" has been one of the hottest buzzwords in business the past decade.

.

Have you considered hiring yourself out as a gigolo, or as a male prostitute?

Or as a chippendale type DM?

You can double your tips by doing lap dances on the side.

Another avenue of income is to sell your blood at a local blood bank.

If that doesn't work out, your non-vital organs will fetch more money.


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## thatdarnedbob (Apr 17, 2009)

Hereticus said:


> How about "Advanced Role Playing Solutions".
> 
> "Advanced" has been one of the hottest buzzwords in business the past decade.




I think Advanced Roleplaying Systems Entrepreneur would be a better fit.


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## Captain_Commando (Apr 17, 2009)

Hereticus said:


> How about "Advanced Role Playing Solutions".
> 
> "Advanced" has been one of the hottest buzzwords in business the past decade.




When I saw this I started thinking "Advanced Storytelling Solutions" but then I realized what that abbreviates to...


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## timbannock (Apr 17, 2009)

You don't want to "limit" who you market to, but you also don't want to be so generalized (generic?) as to miss out on people.  If you're running RPGs, especially just one game (D&D 4e), then you probably want to market the best way you can to that audience specifically.  I mean, if that's what they are looking for, they are going to search for things like:

Dungeon Master
Dungeonmaster
DM
Narrator
Storyteller
Game Master
Gamemaster
Gamesmaster

In fact, if you can do any kind of SEO analysis, I'd dump those exact terms into Google and see what comes up with more hits, and what the top hits of each one is.

I.e., if you're going to be DMing Dungeons & Dragons, you want to name yourself after whatever comes up on Google first when looking for the game Dungeons & Dragons.  Therefore, I suspect Dungeon Master and DM would be the best bets.

If you look at this from an SEO standpoint (search engine optimization, for the unlearned), that could help you and your marketing (ESPECIALLY of your website) a whole lot.

And if you're only doing a specific region/city/area, you should probably incorporate something like that into the name as well (or at least as a subheading).

Random (hopefully not completely stupid) examples I thought of in 2 seconds:
"New York's Greatest Dungeon Master for Hire" (The Above Domain Name is For Sale email us at nyc@nyc.com for price quote)
"Dungeon Master Meetup NY" (DAVIDMORGANPHOTOGRAPHY.COM)
"Dungeon Master for Hire: NYC's greatest DM" (Index of /)
"NYC Dungeon-Crawl: DM for Hire in NYC for D&D 4e Games" (www.nycdungeon.com)

If you use the word dungeon prominently, just make sure you make it clear that you're not selling some kind of BDSM service!


----------



## timbannock (Apr 17, 2009)

You don't want to "limit" who you market to, but you also don't want to be so generalized (generic?) as to miss out on people.  If you're running RPGs, especially just one game (D&D 4e), then you probably want to market the best way you can to that audience specifically.  I mean, if that's what they are looking for, they are going to search for things like:

Dungeon Master
Dungeonmaster
DM
Narrator
Storyteller
Game Master
Gamemaster
Gamesmaster

In fact, if you can do any kind of SEO analysis, I'd dump those exact terms into Google and see what comes up with more hits, and what the top hits of each one is.

I.e., if you're going to be DMing Dungeons & Dragons, you want to name yourself after whatever comes up on Google first when looking for the game Dungeons & Dragons.  Therefore, I suspect Dungeon Master and DM would be the best bets.

If you look at this from an SEO standpoint (search engine optimization, for the unlearned), that could help you and your marketing (ESPECIALLY of your website) a whole lot.

And if you're only doing a specific region/city/area, you should probably incorporate something like that into the name as well (or at least as a subheading).

Random (hopefully not completely stupid) examples I thought of in 2 seconds:
"New York's Greatest Dungeon Master for Hire" (The Above Domain Name is For Sale email us at nyc@nyc.com for price quote)
"Dungeon Master Meetup NY" (DAVIDMORGANPHOTOGRAPHY.COM)
"Dungeon Master for Hire: NYC's greatest DM" (Index of /)
"NYC Dungeon-Crawl: DM for Hire in NYC for D&D 4e Games" (www.nycdungeon.com)

If you use the word dungeon prominently, just make sure you make it clear that you're not selling some kind of BDSM service!


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## Moleculo (Apr 17, 2009)

Captain Commando, you sound bipolar/manic. Not that a bit of mania doesn't help in an entrepreneurial endeavor, but--to put it nicely--you're clearly thinking entirely too optimistically. Take a step back and review your plan.


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## timbannock (Apr 17, 2009)

Having now read all of this hoopla from the start, CC appears to be a bit too optimistic, but is not outside the realm of realism that many people claim him to be.

He's gone back to the drawing board on his ideas at least 2-3 times.  He's detailed scenarios (more than one) and sought feedback on them.  He's done some market research (but missed some variables...and admitted it).

Honestly, I think he's onto something, but the issue is really that it's such a niche, and one that carries stigma with it to boot.  It's not like a Trekky trying to create a new, more local Star Trek convention.  It's more like a guy who loves only the tribble episode of original Star Trek, and who wants to market a roleplaying game entirely based around tribbles.  It's like a really small niche inside of a small niche that's inside of a kinda medium-sized niche that a lot of people who aren't in that target audience look down upon because they think it's "immature."

Think of it this way: CC is really just trying to be like a Con games DM.  He's trying to get some groups together who wouldn't otherwise be together (like convention goers), he's trying to market why his game is the best one to sign up for (like any Con DM who's name isn't already found in the writing credits of already published D&D books) and he's trying to make a buck or two off of it (just like Convention groups already do).  It's also like setting up an online roleplaying service like Fantasy Grounds or whatever one of the pay ones is.  Except you don't need a computer, you just show up to the library or wherever the heck he holds this thing.

Will it work?  I think he's too optimistic about some of his data, but there's definitely an audience there.  It's just smaller than he might think, or it's going to require some really focused, hard marketing/advertising to get to them.

Will it sustain him with extra cash?  That's the most doubtful part.  I think he'll find gamers, but enough to cover anything more than his base costs?  I highly doubt it.

At the same time, I saw how some local stores held LARPs and they made a KILLING off of those.  They banked hundreds of dollars on that stuff every month, and the operating costs were pretty small.


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## Joshua Randall (Apr 17, 2009)

Olaf the Stout said:


> This thread is just one giant facepalm!



Au contraire!

This thread (and all its various siblings) is/are the most entertaining thing(s) I have read on the 'net in _years_.

I don't know which I look forward to more: updates to Sepulchrave's story hour, or updates to Captain_Commando's thread(s).


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## Dathalas (Apr 17, 2009)

Hey, Captain ...

Have you ever thought about selling your adventures through PDFs online?  

I don't need your DMing services, but I'm always on the lookout for interesting new adventures.

It's also great for you because you do the work once yet get paid for it again and again.  It could be a great way to supplement your income.

Good luck and take care.

ADDED:  
Oh, and you might want to check into running online games for profit using something like MapTools and Skype at unusual times.  

There are a lot of gamers that can't find a game in person because they have weird schedules that might be willing to pay if you could find them a group.  

A lot of these people appear to be professionals, so they would probably be willing to trade their money for the experience.  

I think people would be willing to pay more if they received valuable features like playing on atrractive maps and pre-written macros.


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## Flatus Maximus (Apr 17, 2009)

Joshua Randall said:


> Au contraire!
> 
> This thread (and all its various siblings) is/are the most entertaining thing(s) I have read on the 'net in _years_.
> 
> I don't know which I look forward to more: updates to Sepulchrave's story hour, or updates to Captain_Commando's thread(s).




You said it, brother.  My heart skips a beat when this thread drops off the first page.


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## Lidgar (Apr 18, 2009)

This thread is not a acrobat, nor does it wear a sombrero. It may be hiding under a pile of apples. Roll 2d6 and consult the following chart:

1-2: CC trademarks "Gamemastertute" and becomes the next Bill Gates.
2-5: CC publishes "Tales of a Corporate DM: The Inside Story" and becomes the next Stephen King.
6-9: The thread spontaneously implodes under it's own inertia.
11-12: Roll again, ignoring any apples, acrobats, or DM's for hire.


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## Olaf the Stout (Apr 18, 2009)

Joshua Randall said:


> Au contraire!
> 
> This thread (and all its various siblings) is/are the most entertaining thing(s) I have read on the 'net in _years_.
> 
> I don't know which I look forward to more: updates to Sepulchrave's story hour, or updates to Captain_Commando's thread(s).




I agree it's entertaining.  But it still makes me want to smack myself in the forehead.

Olaf the Stout


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## Captain_Commando (Apr 18, 2009)

Dathalas said:


> Hey, Captain ...
> 
> Have you ever thought about selling your adventures through PDFs online?
> 
> ...




If the adventures are a hit, then I'll definitely consider selling them.

The online thing sounds interesting. That might be something to look into later on.

UPDATE
I'm thinking about going with the name "Storyteller Solutions" for the business. I'm leaning towards "game coordinator" for my personal title on business cards.

The services will include:
1. Self-contained prewritten adventures (original, published, and custom order). An additional preparation/design fee will be required for custom orders depending on the scope of the request ($10 to $100+). Both hourly rates and set fees will be offered depending on the adventure used.
2. Special wargames with lots of miniatures and specially prepared "battlefields" (original pre-designed and custom order). 
3. DM consultation and tutorials.
4. LFR modules (As soon as my RPGA membership comes through and I take the Herald test).
5. Design work for character backgrounds and homebrew settings. Some DMs might be too busy to flesh out their games as much as they would like to. Fee will vary depending on the scope of work requested. (minimum $20)

Selling adventure modules written for the business may provide an additional source of income.

Hourly rate will likely be $15-20 per hour. Set fees for running adventures will range from $60 to $120 (based on complexity of the adventure and amount of preparation required). Special gaming locations may be offered. Otherwise a list of standard locations in the city will be given.

Marketing will be done through multiple meetup.com groups including business networking groups. The services will be sold both as a social gaming experience and as a company team-building exercise. Fun, educational adventures may be offered as a family activity service.

Dungeons and Dragons 4th edition will be the system of service offered since it is the most "up to date" version, has the recognizable brand name, takes less time to prepare for, and it is beginner friendly. Most potential customers are likely to be beginners and time is limited so 4th edition is the logical choice. Adventures for other systems may be offered some time after the launch of the service.


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## crazy_cat (Apr 18, 2009)

Lidgar said:


> This thread is not a acrobat, nor does it wear a sombrero. It may be hiding under a pile of apples. Roll 2d6 and consult the following chart:
> 
> 1-2: CC trademarks "Gamemastertute" and becomes the next Bill Gates.
> 2-5: CC publishes "Tales of a Corporate DM: The Inside Story" and becomes the next Stephen King.
> ...



Who has suprise - Captain_Commando, us, the apples, or the Gazebo?


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## Hereticus (Apr 18, 2009)

Captain Commando,
As someone who had his own business (I was a self-employed contractor to corporations doing management and quality stuff), one of the lessons I learned is that in order to get contracts I needed to have good references and be known as a professionally competent person. in other words to know people and be known by people.

My suggestion to you is to write some short stories and have them published on your home page. Perhaps you can have them linked to here or at WotC.

Once you have gained some notoriety, you can sell your services based on running adventures that are based on your stories, or any other topic.

One other comment... dump the childish "Captain Commando" moniker and select something that most people wouldn't be ashamed of being known as in public.


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## UngainlyTitan (Apr 18, 2009)

The short story isv one of the best made in this thread. I don't live in you catchment area but nothing on this thread would entice me to pay for you DM'ing services. That said there is a fanfic I have been reading (Buffy/D&D crossover) and if I lived near the writer I think I would pay to play in the campaign world.


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## Captain_Commando (Apr 18, 2009)

ardoughter said:


> The short story isv one of the best made in this thread. I don't live in you catchment area but nothing on this thread would entice me to pay for you DM'ing services. That said there is a fanfic I have been reading (Buffy/D&D crossover) and if I lived near the writer I think I would pay to play in the campaign world.




You know this is a brainstorming thread for ideas and not an advertising thread, right?

Hereticus is right about placing samples of writing on the business site. I'll definitely do that.

As for references and having a reputation, that's what meetup.com brings to the table.

My moniker makes people happy. I don't think that's anything to be ashamed of. Especially for an entertainer.

Anyway...

I'm fiddling with how I handle client fees. I want things to be fair for the client while protecting me from being taken advantage of. Tell me what you think.

Let's use the following price for example. $72 for a pre-made adventure session estimated to run 4 to 5 hours.

At the end of the first hour (not the beginning), a client must pay at least $15 of the fee.  At the end of each half hour afterwards, an increasing fraction of the payment becomes mandatory in increments.

The client doesn't have to pay full price if the session is cut short or becomes unsatisfactory. The initial presentation is guaranteed to be satisfactory or no fee is demanded during the first hour.

I won't lose too much if the client ends the session prematurely.

The client doesn't have to worry about the session being rushed or prolonged. I can focus on making the experience fun and immersive instead of worrying about the time.


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## Piratecat (Apr 19, 2009)

Ugh. It's painful enough paying someone once. Paying someone five times over a session is crass and annoying. Even if I had convinced myself to pay you at the beginning I'd have changed my mind after two hours, no matter how good you are.


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## Urizen (Apr 19, 2009)

This thread is a joke.... isn't it?


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## Relique du Madde (Apr 19, 2009)

Urizen said:


> This thread is a joke.... isn't it?




I don't think it is.   He did a thread like this like three times already.


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## Captain_Commando (Apr 19, 2009)

Piratecat said:


> Ugh. It's painful enough paying someone once. Paying someone five times over a session is crass and annoying. Even if I had convinced myself to pay you at the beginning I'd have changed my mind after two hours, no matter how good you are.




Hahaha.

But just in case people take that reply seriously, the increments are added up whenever the session ends. Payment is not demanded every hour.

It's a set amount so the client knows exactly how much must be paid for the full session and increments so that clients can't short-change me after 5 hours of work + prep time.


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## Piratecat (Apr 19, 2009)

Wasn't meant to be a joke - based on what you wrote, I really misunderstood you. Glad that wasn't the case.


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## catsclaw227 (Apr 19, 2009)

Captain_Commando said:


> I'm fiddling with how I handle client fees. I want things to be fair for the client while protecting me from being taken advantage of. Tell me what you think.
> 
> Let's use the following price for example. $72 for a pre-made adventure session estimated to run 4 to 5 hours.
> 
> ...



What happens if the adventure is cut short because of your schedule or an emergency that you need to handle?

Will the clients be fully reimbursed because you ended the game prematurely?


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## Wereserpent (Apr 19, 2009)

Errr, I know you really want to do this, but I would reccomend you try and get a day job first.


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## UngainlyTitan (Apr 19, 2009)

Captain_Commando said:


> You know this is a brainstorming thread for ideas and not an advertising thread, right?



Yup but you know what I was getting at also 



Captain_Commando said:


> Hereticus is right about placing samples of writing on the business site. I'll definitely do that.
> 
> As for references and having a reputation, that's what meetup.com brings to the table.
> 
> ...




Charge a flat fee but if you want players with an out chage 20% up front and the reat on completion of the adventure. Though I would reccomend charging up front. Let people know that is what you are doing.
If you convinced me to pay you to DM I would be happy enough to pay for one session up front. If I was not satisfied then I would not give any repeat business. 

Anything too fiddly just give people room to argue. One key thing is to ensure that all players are on the same wavelength from the beginning.


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## Captain_Commando (Apr 19, 2009)

ardoughter said:


> Charge a flat fee but if you want players with an out chage 20% up front and the reat on completion of the adventure. Though I would reccomend charging up front. Let people know that is what you are doing.
> If you convinced me to pay you to DM I would be happy enough to pay for one session up front. If I was not satisfied then I would not give any repeat business.




Well it's not just about client satisfaction. If for some reason everyone had to leave prematurely (a pregnant woman giving birth for example), I would be screwed if we finished most of the session and I only wound up with 20%. The incremental % mandatory fee over the course of the session (tallied at the end if the session is ended early) is a safety net for earnings.

This is a fair plan for both me and the clients.

It's ultimately a flat fee plan that protects both parties.

I'm going to make it a player limit of 7.  I'm leaning towards making $84 the maximum fee per standard 4 to 5 hour session because it's easily divisible 1 to 7 ways. $16.80 at the end of the first hour and an additional $16.80 expected at the middle of each following hour if the session is ended prematurely, up to the set maximum of $84. Added up at the end of the session, whether the adventure is completed or not. No extra charge if the session time goes over the estimated session length as long as the adventure gets completed and the client(s) is satisfied. If for some reason I choose to end a session myself prematurely, the session fee will be waived (not likely to happen ever).

War games will probably be a flat price.

DM consultation/tutorial services should be paid by hour.

Campaign design work for busy DMs should be a flat fee depending on the scope of the client request.

I'm leaning towards "Storyteller Solutions" as the business name and game coordinator/storyteller as my personal title. 

I might add standard paid storytelling to my services, possibly performing for children. I have a reference as a church Sunday School teacher so that could help. I also have a good, clean record for background checks. Perhaps a puppet show...


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## Wednesday Boy (Apr 20, 2009)

Captain_Commando said:


> I'm going to make it a player limit of 7.



 
I would keep the maximum number of players to 5 or less.  6 or more players slows combat enough where I’ve noticed the game is dragging and follows the “too many cooks” adage in roleplaying situations.

I also think it will work best if you can find an established group to run games for instead of pickup games.  When I moved to my hometown after college I formed a bunch of roleplaying groups and it took a long while before we found enough players that had matching play styles and who liked each others company.  If I joined one of your games and didn’t get lucky enough to play with people who had similar play styles and meshing personalities, I wouldn’t return to your table.

As a side note, if I was a potential client of yours the games you run would have to be excellent to keep me paying.  With most games free, I don’t think I could justify paying for an average quality game when I could probably find or run an average quality game.

Good luck on your endeavor.  I’m skeptical about your chances of making any money—let alone a living out of this but I hope it goes well for you!


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## Wednesday Boy (Apr 20, 2009)

Captain_Commando said:


> 5. Design work for character backgrounds and homebrew settings. Some DMs might be too busy to flesh out their games as much as they would like to. Fee will vary depending on the scope of work requested. (minimum $20)




Maybe I misunderstand what you mean but this sounds like a fee for fleshing out your character.  That sort of extra cost for making a better developed character would make me hesitant to join one of your games.


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## Captain_Commando (Apr 20, 2009)

Wednesday Boy said:


> Maybe I misunderstand what you mean but this sounds like a fee for fleshing out your character.  That sort of extra cost for making a better developed character would make me hesitant to join one of your games.




It's not an extra cost. It's a different service altogether. That fee would be for helping out someone else's campaign. I'm not just selling one type of service with the business.

Most of my potential clients will likely be people who've probably never played DnD before or don't have the time or inclination for a regular group.

Anyway, one of the big sells other than guaranteed quality of service is that  I would be available at time slots that are difficult to find game masters for. I'd be available to start games anytime from 11 AM to 7 PM. At most a 12 hour game from 11 to 11. Unless I find a job, potentially one could hire me for an all-week series of 12 hour games.

Today's Activities: 

Inquire at local Lane Bryant store about possible position opening (I found a possibly recent ad). Wish me luck. (sigh)

Start setting up web site for business. A set of multiple basic livejournal accounts linked to each other (?). I'll need advice and feedback on this later.

Make business cards at Staples (?).

Complete at least one of the first adventures to be offered on the site when the business is launched (next week maybe?).


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## Janx (Apr 20, 2009)

Before you settle on a name, check to see if it exists as a website, and as a Trademark.  'Storyteller' may be registered by WhiteWolf, so you need to do your homework.


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## Wednesday Boy (Apr 20, 2009)

Captain_Commando said:


> It's not an extra cost. It's a different service altogether. That fee would be for helping out someone else's campaign. I'm not just selling one type of service with the business.




Ah, I see what you mean now. I thought you meant they would have to pay extra for you to help delve into their character's backstory. Nevermind!!


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## Vyvyan Basterd (Apr 20, 2009)

Captain_Commando said:


> UPDATE
> I'm thinking about going with the name "Storyteller Solutions" for the business. I'm leaning towards "game coordinator" for my personal title on business cards.
> 
> The services will include:
> 4. LFR modules (As soon as my RPGA membership comes through and I take the Herald test).




"Storyteller" to gamers sounds like a White Wolf GM, while to non-gamers may invoke thoughts of some kind of after-school type or daycare program at the library. IMO.

I'm not too sure it's kosher to charge what you're planning to charge for RPGA modules. I believe if you check the RPGA rules you are allowed to charge only a buck or two per player per adventure to cover actual expenses. Conventions get away with this because the entry fee for the convention is just to pay for the space (and make money) and the actual event tickets are $1-2.


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## Captain_Commando (Apr 20, 2009)

Vyvyan Basterd said:


> "Storyteller" to gamers sounds like a White Wolf GM, while to non-gamers may invoke thoughts of some kind of after-school type or daycare program at the library. IMO.
> 
> I'm not too sure it's kosher to charge what you're planning to charge for RPGA modules. I believe if you check the RPGA rules you are allowed to charge only a buck or two per player per adventure to cover actual expenses. Conventions get away with this because the entry fee for the convention is just to pay for the space (and make money) and the actual event tickets are $1-2.




Actually, I will be likely marketing more to people unfamilar with White Wolf than those who are. I may actually add standard storytelling for children to my offered services. My background and references might actually be enough for standard storytelling work.

I've looked over the RPGA rules - nothing about charging fees for DM services.  If I've missed it then please point out the section where it says you can't charge much. It's a person's time being sold, not the product itself, and a professional game master is not exactly a common thing so there isn't any point to have such a ruling.

The reason why conventions get away with it is because most if not all of the DMs are there on a voluntary once in a while basis. Plus no guarantee of quality service from what I've read. Also, it might be a rule that at a con you can't charge a lot but I'm offering a private service for clients who pay for my time, not running a con game.


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## Captain_Commando (Apr 22, 2009)

TODAY'S UPDATE

1. I'm officially a Herald level event organizer for the RPGA. Huzzah! 

2. I'm trying to finalize my pricing today. 

This is what I'm leaning on after some thought and getting feedback.

$105 total for a standard 5-6 hour original or published adventure - published adventures will be enhanced to provide a better quality experience.

$189 total for a special extended session lasting from 10 to 12 hours.

$63 total to run an LFR module (4 hour adventure) + an additional $21 to run a second module on the same day + an additional $21 to run a third module on the same day.

I've decided to replace the "special miniatures wargame" service with a continuous dungeon delving service with a flat fee based on how many dungeon levels are requested. $42 total for the first 3 dungeon levels + $10.50 for each additional dungeon level. Each dungeon level averaging 1 hour to complete and featuring exciting combat, problem-solving, and innovative use of terrain (some including moving terrain and/or 3d terrain).

Payment up front upon arrival. Satisfaction guaranteed or refund given. 

Minimum $21 kept at the end of every standard and extended session if at least 1 hour has been played to prevent abuse of services. 

Minimum $63 kept at end of extended session if at least 5 hours have been played.

For LFR modules - no refund per module upon distribution of official player character rewards from each module run. People won't necessarily play for the extra visuals and performance acting and gaming materials I bring to the session. They might pay for standard or extended regular games after trying an LFR module with me though.

For dungeon delving - minimum $21 kept at the end of session. Minimum $42 kept if additional levels are played after the first 3.

Actual storytelling for children - depends on story requested - I'll be figuring this one out later.


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## catsclaw227 (Apr 22, 2009)

SO.... A lot of people have been asking you a few extremely valid questions that you don't seem willing to answer.  But I guess that's your prerogative.  I have a couple for you.

1. Did you do any market research to even find out if gamers would be willing to pay you $105 for a gaming session?

2. Are you making custom battle-maps in Dundjinni or doing anything to make your games better than a typical F2F home game?

3. Are you still planning on the puppet show, mask, or singing thing?  [I'll be totally honest with you, if you started doing this during a game I was playing in, I'd laugh for a sec, then get ticked off and then ask for my money back.... ALL of it.]

4. What happens if the players in the group end up not getting along with each other?

5. What is it about YOUR game and style itself that will convice people to pay you to play?  You haven't really answered this in any concrete way.

6. When do you plan on starting and how many games do you (honestly) think you will get in your first month?

7.  Have you thought about getting at least ONE paying group first before doing all this website building, card-making, multiple game style pricing stuff?  You should walk before you run.  You will be very disappointed if you spend 200 hours prepping for this business and you find out you only get one paying group every 2 weeks.

8.  How do you plan on generating repeat business?  Will you run mini-campaigns?  Stay with LFR games?  

9. What about people that can easily sign up for a LFR game for free. There must be TONS of games going on in the NYC area.  Heck there's a few weekly LFR games here in little ol' Cary/Apex.  And they are free.

Just some questions to mull over, I'm curious to know your thoughts.


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## Captain_Commando (Apr 23, 2009)

catsclaw227 said:


> SO.... A lot of people have been asking you a few extremely valid questions that you don't seem willing to answer.  But I guess that's your prerogative.  I have a couple for you.
> 
> 1. Did you do any market research to even find out if gamers would be willing to pay you $105 for a gaming session?
> 
> ...




Which extremely valid questions are you referring to?

1. People who are having problems finding the right group and DMs who want to play but want to play with their current group where no one else wants to DM have told me they might pay for a session depending on the price. I've researched current costs of entertainment in the city to see how high I might be able to go with this. I've looked into the profession of storytelling to find out that there is a market for professional storytellers that is getting a bit of a revival lately.  Once the site is up and I've gone to my first networking party I will begin to see how many people might hire me for this but due to my services being inexpensive compared to other team-building exercise services, I may very well be able to sell it as that. The first week or two of actually having the business up is the real litmus test for this sort of thing.

2. I'll be combining printed tiles, store-bought tiles, cinematic screen backsplash, original artwork and 3-d constructs to create elaborate battlefields for encounters.

3. The "puppet show" and "mask" perhaps for the children's storytelling service, not the game session service. As for the singing, that will be up to the client during the survey.

4. The client is responsible for who is playing in the group. If there are conflicts, my 5 years as an elementary grade Sunday School teacher will surely come in handy.

5. First of all, my game and style are NOT the only reasons to hire me over others nor are they the main reasons. It is the COMBINATION of my storytelling skills, creative writing, elaborate setup, referenceable experience, and most of all schedule/location availability that set me apart from other GMs (most of them at least). Those that might possibly have a similar if not greater level of session resources are likely to be full up already. The time and effort spent to try finding someone that will bring as much to the table as me will be more expensive and much more likely to yield less satisfactory results in most cases. It might be easy to find a free GM but not one with the same hours and production/skill level. My business provides a luxury, not a necessity, and NYC is famous for people who spend money on luxury entertainment.

6. It's decided that I'm officially starting next week. I expect 2 sessions, 5 at most for my first month. Enough to cover my food and transportation for job hunting at the very least. I will probably see more LFR requests and children's storytelling requests than for the other services but that's fine. Offering more than one type of service is key to making regular income with this business.

7. A business has to be set up before it can be run. One does not build a temple without a foundation. One paying group every 2 weeks is a success from my perspective. It's better than nothing. 200 hours is quite an exaggeration. I've had time since I don't qualify for every single job that's available locally, just some of them, and interviews are not immediately given in most cases. 

8. I'll be adding new original adventures to the site weekly. There are already plenty of LFR modules that can be run and more are on the way. I'll certainly make campaign service an option but it's more likely that clients will order the one-shots and LFR modules. Campaigns will be an option in customized service.

9. The official LFR meetup is on Wednesdays from 7 PM-11 PM at a set location with 2 or 3 DMs. I will be available every other day of the week  + hours before 7 PM and be able to run as many as 3 in a day from 11 AM to 11 PM in the location of the client's choice.

I only really need 1 or 2 regular clients with money to spend to make this a success from my perspective. Otherwise a bunch of people trying the service once or twice over the course of several months. A combination of both would potentially be enough for a living but I'm not expecting that much.

NYC is full of people with odd hours (city that never sleeps for good reason). If there are gamers with odd hours, chances are they might jump on the opportunity I'm presenting. Most of my potential clientele however will likely belong to irregular gamers and people who want to try out the game for possibly the first time but don't have schedules that match with the local meetup network.

The next couple of weeks will show whether there is a strong enough market for my combination of services. Anyway, I can at least keep the service up for free (free web hosting). I'm not having to prepare a game if I'm not being hired anyway. All the stuff on the site immediately available will be pre-written and waiting to be requested while I'm job hunting.


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## catsclaw227 (Apr 23, 2009)

Captain_Commando said:


> 1. People who are having problems finding the right group and DMs who want to play but want to play with their current group where no one else wants to DM have told me they might pay for a session depending on the price. I've researched current costs of entertainment in the city to see how high I might be able to go with this. I've looked into the profession of storytelling to find out that there is a market for professional storytellers that is getting a bit of a revival lately.  Once the site is up and I've gone to my first networking party I will begin to see how many people might hire me for this but due to my services being inexpensive compared to other team-building exercise services, I may very well be able to sell it as that. The first week or two of actually having the business up is the real litmus test for this sort of thing.



Are these networking parties like D&D Meetup parties, or are they storytelling parties?  I am a bit confused, has you job shifted predominantly towards storytelling or DMing some 4e D&D games?  I am guessing by your response you have already gotten a few yeses about paying you to DM?  Also, getting a good website up isn't easy, it can suck many hours out of your day. 

I agree, the first 2-3 weeks will tell a lot, but you really won't know for 2-3 months if it's going to be worth it or not.



> 2. I'll be combining printed tiles, store-bought tiles, cinematic screen backsplash, original artwork and 3-d constructs to create elaborate battlefields for encounters.



Nice.  I assume you have this budgeted, I recall a "props" budget or something.  The printed tiles, original artwork and 3-d elaborate battlefields take some time to get done, so figure this in as well.



> 3. The "puppet show" and "mask" perhaps for the children's storytelling service, not the game session service. As for the singing, that will be up to the client during the survey.



I see, I recall you were talking about using the puppet show and the mask during regular game sessions.



> 4. The client is responsible for who is playing in the group. If there are conflicts, my 5 years as an elementary grade Sunday School teacher will surely come in handy.



Good point.  But, realistically, if you happen to cobble together a game from two different groups of friends (2 from one, 3 from another), there is a real chance they might not "game the same", so to speak. Not really anything you can do about it, but it's something to look out for.



> 5. First of all, my game and style are NOT the only reasons to hire me over others nor are they the main reasons. It is the COMBINATION of my storytelling skills, creative writing, elaborate setup, referenceable experience, and most of all schedule/location availability that set me apart from other GMs (most of them at least). Those that might possibly have a similar if not greater level of session resources are likely to be full up already. The time and effort spent to try finding someone that will bring as much to the table as me will be more expensive and much more likely to yield less satisfactory results in most cases. It might be easy to find a free GM but not one with the same hours and production/skill level. My business provides a luxury, not a necessity, and NYC is famous for people who spend money on luxury entertainment.



Well, I wish you luck in this regard.  Remember, more people are spending less money on these kinds of things in this economy.  Could you afford to pay someone $100 for a few game sessions?



> 6. It's decided that I'm officially starting next week. I expect 2 sessions, 5 at most for my first month. Enough to cover my food and transportation for job hunting at the very least. I will probably see more LFR requests and children's storytelling requests than for the other services but that's fine. Offering more than one type of service is key to making regular income with this business.



I assume that with this expectation, you already have two sessions set up and scheduled for next week?  I didn't know you were already starting a paying game.  I made the mistake of assuming you didn't have any groups set up to DM yet.



> 7. A business has to be set up before it can be run. One does not build a temple without a foundation. One paying group every 2 weeks is a success from my perspective. It's better than nothing. 200 hours is quite an exaggeration. I've had time since I don't qualify for every single job that's available locally, just some of them, and interviews are not immediately given in most cases.



Yes, but a good businessman also has some clients nailed down while they are still building the foundation.



> 8. I'll be adding new original adventures to the site weekly. There are already plenty of LFR modules that can be run and more are on the way. I'll certainly make campaign service an option but it's more likely that clients will order the one-shots and LFR modules. Campaigns will be an option in customized service.



Two original adventures a week?  With cool maps and handouts and original art and stuff (see question 2)?  That's some serious production. Don't burn yourself out!



> 9. The official LFR meetup is on Wednesdays from 7 PM-11 PM at a set location with 2 or 3 DMs. I will be available every other day of the week  + hours before 7 PM and be able to run as many as 3 in a day from 11 AM to 11 PM in the location of the client's choice.



That's good.  Stay super flexible, this may be one major saving grace in all of this.  I can imagine a bunch of guys that work graveyard shift and can't ever find DMs because they need to play at 6am when they get off work. 



> I only really need 1 or 2 regular clients with money to spend to make this a success from my perspective. Otherwise a bunch of people trying the service once or twice over the course of several months. A combination of both would potentially be enough for a living but I'm not expecting that much.



How much is the cost of living in NYC?  You'd need a lot of clients to earn a living off of it, but I wish you luck.  Maybe you can nail down a few good working adult groups, some teen groups (with parental waivers and such), and a university group or two. 



> NYC is full of people with odd hours (city that never sleeps for good reason). If there are gamers with odd hours, chances are they might jump on the opportunity I'm presenting. Most of my potential clientele however will likely belong to irregular gamers and people who want to try out the game for possibly the first time but don't have schedules that match with the local meetup network.
> 
> The next couple of weeks will show whether there is a strong enough market for my combination of services. Anyway, I can at least keep the service up for free (free web hosting). I'm not having to prepare a game if I'm not being hired anyway. All the stuff on the site immediately available will be pre-written and waiting to be requested while I'm job hunting.



Well, good luck with all of this.  I am admittedly skeptical, but you seem to be sure in what you are doing. 

I would LOVE to get some feedback about how your first two groups do next week.  Tell us about them!  What classes and races, how are the players, what are their gaming habits, etc.


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## aboyd (Apr 23, 2009)

Captain_Commando said:


> It is the COMBINATION of my storytelling skills, creative writing, elaborate setup, *referenceable experience*, and most of all schedule/location availability that set me apart from other GMs (most of them at least).



*Referencable experience?*  I wasn't aware you _had_ that.  Seriously?  I guess you must, because you wouldn't lie to everyone on this forum.  So, great!  I'll bite.  I'd like to speak with your references about how they enjoyed your games.  Let me know who to contact.  Thanks.

Also, do you take PayPal?



Captain_Commando said:


> It's decided that I'm officially starting next week.



Well, that's as close to instant gratification as any rubbernecker could hope for.


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## Captain_Commando (Apr 23, 2009)

catsclaw227 said:


> 1. Are these networking parties like D&D Meetup parties, or are they storytelling parties?  I am a bit confused, has you job shifted predominantly towards storytelling or DMing some 4e D&D games?
> 
> 2. I am guessing by your response you have already gotten a few yeses about paying you to DM?
> 
> ...




1. Business networking parties with business owners, entrepeneurs, and corporate team leaders. Professionals with money and companies looking for relatively inexpensive team-building exercises.

2. People said they might pay. That doesn't mean they will pay. I'm not counting on that.

3. I've found a website called Yola that saves time with click and drag website construction. I might try a different web host but Yola seems very convenient.

4. I consider even just one hired gig within the next 2-3 weeks a success. That's enough to cover a lot of subway and bus rides and at least several meals.

5. Fortunately I have a lot of leftover art/office supplies from my late father and from my stint as a Sunday School teacher and my printer has a moderate amount of ink left.

6. That was for the previous venture when I was still very shaken from losing my father. I'm over the mask and puppets now. Puppets might be useful for the standard children's storytelling service though.

7. Strangely, I read that surveys show that people are actually spending more on entertainment. Probably because of the gloominess caused by the economy.

8. I'm expecting 2 sessions before the end of the first month, based on the fact that I'm appealing to several different markets through several different services, at least one of which has a legitimate proven demand. 

9. This particular business requires that the foundation be in place for the business to be pitched.

10. I'll be adding new original adventures weekly but that doesn't necessarily mean 2. At least 1 a week though.

11. I don't expect a living but I believe I can make enough for food and transportation while job hunting.  It would be a living in my case if I got 2-3 gigs a week.

12. I've been asking people for advice on this. The general opinion is that I could make money from this but probably not a lot. It's better than nothing though.

13. Once I get started up, I'll be blogging on livejournal about my exploits. Don't expect a lot during the first month though.

ALSO

My experience with GMing can be referenced through my recorded sessions on Meetup.com. I'll be asking players to post reviews and feedback on the local meetup group's message board or I might start a playtest meetup group for that purpose. Anyway, I'm building up a recorded history through the group that potential clients can check out.

Hopefully my website will be ready by the end of the weekend. The first business networking party I'm going to is next week and there are going to be plenty of potential clients there.


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## aboyd (Apr 23, 2009)

Captain_Commando said:


> My experience with GMing can be referenced through my recorded sessions on Meetup.com.



That's not _referential_ experience, that's _demonstrable_ experience.  However, I'll not dwell on that.  I would like like to hear these.  I am a member of meetup.com.  Please tell me which group I should join to gain access to these recordings.  I can't wait to hear one.  Thanks.


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## Dire Bare (Apr 23, 2009)

As many who have posted in this thread, I have strong doubts that Captain C's business venture will bear any fruit at all.

However, there is an awful lot of snark aimed at the guy.  Jeesh, lay off people!  You may honestly feel the Captain hasn't got much chance at making this work, but at least be respectful of his attempt and try not to be so mean-spirited!

I appreciate those who have offered sincere constructive criticism on a professional GMing gig, and for those who have offered support and advice.

Personally, I wish you well Captain!  My own advice, however, is to not only drop this idea and focus on getting a more traditional job, but to go get some _help_ in doing so.  If you haven't already, head down to your local government employment office where they probably will not only help you in your job search, but offer classes and seminars on how to effectively find some work.

Either way, it's a tough economy out there, so good luck with whatever direction you choose to go in!


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## Captain_Commando (Apr 24, 2009)

aboyd said:


> That's not _referential_ experience, that's _demonstrable_ experience.  However, I'll not dwell on that.  I would like like to hear these.  I am a member of meetup.com.  Please tell me which group I should join to gain access to these recordings.  I can't wait to hear one.  Thanks.




When I wrote recorded I meant that they take pictures and that my participation is more or less logged. I'm in the green shirt standing up if you check out the picture from the last monthly meetup.

As for getting a job:
I recently got some help fixing up my resumé and hopefully getting an interview soon with a temp agency.
A friend of mine got me an in with a group called Quixtar that might help me generate extra income on the side.
I'm checking both the classifieds and talent auditions in NYC every day. My freestyle nunchaku skills might actually be useful for an audition this weekend.

I decided to browse further with free web sites and found a web host called Webs. It has a template for web sites that's perfect for my business (looks like a book opened up). I've started putting up basic things. I'll be starting with at least a 1st level adventure and a 5th level adventure, a 3-5 stage puzzle dungeon, and I've decided to do war games after all. For storytelling I'm going to start with biblical stories and see if I can get churches to hire me. I may do the first few stories for free to gain extra references and recommendations.


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## Yesterday (Apr 24, 2009)

I've been following this thread pretty closely.

I thought I'd look into Quixtar a bit for you, Captain Commando, since I hadn't heard of it.

As an initial heads up, the second most popular Quixtar-related google search was 'Quixtar scam'. 

It's a multi-level marketing system. IE, Those who recruit you get a cut of any sales you make, and your profits depend on recruiting others... 

Just two pieces of advice:
1. If it seems like such a sure-fire way to make money, ask yourself why more people don't do it?

2. If there is ANY KIND of up-front investment required from you, walk away.

EDIT: On further review, Quixtar is pretty much a shady, shady deal.  You probably shouldn't sink any time or money into that.


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## PoeticJustice (Apr 24, 2009)

Captain_Commando said:


> My freestyle nunchaku skills might actually be useful for an audition this weekend.




You had me up until here, but this, in combination with all the other baffling stuff I've seen in your threads is simply too much for me to suspend my disbelief.

Well played sir, well played.


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## Olaf the Stout (Apr 24, 2009)

Captain_Commando said:


> I'm checking both the classifieds and talent auditions in NYC every day. My freestyle nunchaku skills might actually be useful for an audition this weekend.




Ok, this is getting way to like *Napoleon Dynamite* for me.

Please don't tell me you have lots of 1337 skills!

Olaf the Stout


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## catsclaw227 (Apr 24, 2009)

Yesterday said:


> I thought I'd look into Quixtar a bit for you, Captain Commando, since I hadn't heard of it.
> 
> As an initial heads up, the second most popular Quixtar-related google search was 'Quixtar scam'.
> 
> ...



Quixtar/Amway is actually a few different product lines, and their dietary supplements and the cosmetics are in fairly high distribution.

It's not a small fly-by-night MLM scam.  It's actually a big company.  Yes, it's MLM for sure, but not a few guys in suits and ties with big teeth talking you into being their sales monkey.

EDIT:  But yes, beware.  These rarely, rarely become anything but a time and money suck.


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## Captain_Commando (Apr 24, 2009)

Yesterday said:


> As an initial heads up, the second most popular Quixtar-related google search was 'Quixtar scam'.
> 
> It's a multi-level marketing system. IE, Those who recruit you get a cut of any sales you make, and your profits depend on recruiting others...
> 
> ...




I only just got an official pitch about it today. After further examination, it's not an illegal organization but the promises are kind of empty unless you are in it full-time and even then only with a lot of luck and a lot of disposable income from other sources. The amount of time and effort it would take to posssibly make a decent side income (not even full income) is more than I have to spare. With the time I would have to spare, the number of hours wouldn't likely produce enough results to be worth it.

EDIT: By today I technically mean yesterday afternoon as it is after 1 AM where I currently am.

On the subject of the nunchaku...

I learned the basics of nunchaku forms at a Tae Kwon Do school. I picked up a couple of extra techniques from my friend who studied Ving Tsun and explored more advanced techniques on my own. I "passed" the threshold of spinning two pairs in opposite directions, which let me develop a larger set of moves based on opposing spins. The latest thing I'm trying to master is performing a high back spinning hook kick without interrupting the rhythm of nunchaku movement. Nunchaku enthusiasts will know that the timing is especially crucial on this (you could end up hitting yourself in the balls).

P.S. Possession of nunchaku is illegal in NY and California. Plastic and foam nunchaku are the exception as they are universally considered toys.


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## aboyd (Apr 24, 2009)

I'm just going to quote, in case anyone missed this classic sequence:



Captain_Commando said:


> First of all, my game and style are NOT the only reasons to hire me over others nor are they the main reasons. It is the COMBINATION of my storytelling skills, creative writing, elaborate setup, *referenceable experience*, and most of all schedule/location availability that set me apart from other GMs (most of them at least).






aboyd said:


> I'd like to speak with your references about how they enjoyed your games.  Let me know who to contact.






Captain_Commando said:


> My experience with GMing can be referenced through my *recorded sessions* on Meetup.com.






aboyd said:


> That's not _referential_ experience, that's _demonstrable_ experience.  However, I'll not dwell on that.  I would like like to hear these.






Captain_Commando said:


> When I wrote recorded I meant that they take pictures and that my participation is more or less logged. *I'm in the green shirt* standing up if you check out the picture from the last monthly meetup.




Captain Commando's "references that set me apart from other GMs" boil down to a photograph of himself in a green shirt.  Awesome.


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## resistor (Apr 24, 2009)

Captain_Commando said:


> I only just got an official pitch about it today. After further examination, it's not an illegal organization but the promises are kind of empty unless you are in it full-time and even then only with a lot of luck and a lot of disposable income from other sources. The amount of time and effort it would take to posssibly make a decent side income (not even full income) is more than I have to spare. With the time I would have to spare, the number of hours wouldn't likely produce enough results to be worth it.




Sounds like an absolutely normal MLM.

The major danger with a lot of MLMs (not sure about this one in particular), is that they often require you to pay for your own training and to buy initial inventory.  While some people are natural salespeople and do well enough selling the product to offset these initial costs, many more are never good enough at it to make it worth the initial investment.


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## Tav_Behemoth (Apr 24, 2009)

I had the pleasure of meeting the OP this week to share my experience with different approaches to professional GMing. I can verify that he is a real person who is putting a lot of effort into trying to make this happen, although I did not apply fire or acid to determine whether he is a troll.

I've met other real people who have successfully turned a profit in this way - I've done so as a middleman, although my attempt to pay myself for running "D&D for Cash" at Gen Con SoCal lost money - so I believe it's possible he could do so as well, although my experience is that it's more difficult than just about any other way one could try to make money, and the amount of money one stands to make is almost always marginal unless you're working with kids, already making much bigger sums from your game writing, or one-in-a-million lucky.

Since I'm also running something at the next NYC D&D Meetup and thus can't play in his game there, The Cap'n offered to run a session at another time so that I could offer a testimonial about the experience he'd provide as a GM. I think that's a great idea (thanks, perhaps, to *aboyd*) and would like to take the liberty of extending the invitation to other folks who are in the area and curious. I'm still trying to figure out when I'll have time, so PM me if you're interested and we can work out a date.


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## catsclaw227 (Apr 24, 2009)

CapCommando --

You had said that you ran tests of your adventures with the Meetup group, so surely you have individuals from these groups that would be willing to act as references.   Is it safe to assume there are some that might be willing to talk about their experiences?


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## Captain_Commando (Apr 24, 2009)

catsclaw227 said:


> CapCommando --
> 
> You had said that you ran tests of your adventures with the Meetup group, so surely you have individuals from these groups that would be willing to act as references.   Is it safe to assume there are some that might be willing to talk about their experiences?




On the meetup group's site there's a message board. I post details and a preview about the next game I'm running in a thread. It might be simple just to ask the players to write a review on the thread post-session to see what they liked best and what they thought could be improved further. I can provide a link to the threads for my games from now on so that potential clients can see what people liked about a particular adventure.


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## Flatus Maximus (Apr 24, 2009)

:reads latest installment:



Captain_Commando said:


> On the subject of the nunchaku...




:spits beer all over the screen:

Oh gawd, here comes the money shot!



Captain_Commando said:


> I learned the basics of nunchaku forms at a Tae Kwon Do school. I picked up a couple of extra techniques from my friend who studied Ving Tsun and explored more advanced techniques on my own. I "passed" the threshold of spinning two pairs in opposite directions, which let me develop a larger set of moves based on opposing spins. The latest thing I'm trying to master is performing a high back spinning hook kick without interrupting the rhythm of nunchaku movement. Nunchaku enthusiasts will know that the timing is especially crucial on this (you could end up hitting yourself in the balls).
> 
> P.S. Possession of nunchaku is illegal in NY and California. Plastic and foam nunchaku are the exception as they are universally considered toys.




God bless you, Captain_Commando.  God bless you.


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## timbannock (Apr 27, 2009)

Every time I read these threads, I flip-flop in how I feel about this.  I try to defend him, and the numchux come out.  I try to laugh at him, and he mentions a legit marketing method for what he's doing.  I consider that method, and then find out that he's only got a picture with him in a green shirt.

What is going on?!

And did I miss the link to the MeetUp.com info for Cap?  I'm afraid to start digging back through this thread too far...


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## Captain_Commando (Apr 27, 2009)

It's not that hard to find the NYC DnD Meetup Group site.

http://www.meetup.com/NYC-DND/

I'm Johnny Tek. Yes. At first it was just my planned stage/pen name but later on I made it my legal name for both personal and practical reasons.

The nunchaku thing didn't work out. When I checked the ad, apparently performers must be 5'9" or shorter. I'm a bit too tall (sigh). 

Anyway...

TODAY'S UPDATE

I've had some problems the past couple of days with my computer crashing a lot. I managed to get some work done on the site though.

I'm hoping to get a lot done today and tomorrow before tomorrow's business networking party, where I'll be pitching to possibly 100+ potential clients.

I'll be posting the business site address on marketing boards and local meetup message boards by tomorrow afternoon.


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## timbannock (Apr 27, 2009)

I wish my friend Evan were free to join in on the game and report back what he experiences.  He lives in Astoria...perhaps I'll alert him of this...


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## Captain_Commando (Apr 28, 2009)

neuronphaser said:


> I wish my friend Evan were free to join in on the game and report back what he experiences.  He lives in Astoria...perhaps I'll alert him of this...




I'm DMing an RPGA game this Wednesday (Gangs of Wheloon). Details are on the meetup group's site. Your friend is welcome to join in even if he doesn't have a 4th-7th level RPGA character. It's totally free, except he'll have to buy at least a snack or drink from the place where the meetup is being held.

If he doesn't have an eligible registered character for it, he can make up a 4th level character with 100 gp for equipment + one 3rd level magic item + one 4th level item + one 5th level magic item. The character won't be recognized for rewards but it'll still be fun to play.

There's less room for me to enhance an LFR session (which is why I'm going to be charging less for that service) but I can still deliver a great experience. Being the perfectionist I am and needing practice, I'll be prepping this session as if I were being paid for it.


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## Plissken (Apr 28, 2009)

Captain, although not stated anywhere, RPGA games should be free. You're charging for the "experience" or your time then?

I noticed on the meetup site that you're Asian. Yay! It's always good to see more people of color playing D&D. I was the only Asian player in my college town in Washington State. Then again, NYC is much more diverse than it is here. Hope your other job searches go well in this tough economy.


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## Captain_Commando (Apr 29, 2009)

Plissken said:


> Captain, although not stated anywhere, RPGA games should be free. You're charging for the "experience" or your time then?
> 
> I noticed on the meetup site that you're Asian. Yay! It's always good to see more people of color playing D&D. I was the only Asian player in my college town in Washington State. Then again, NYC is much more diverse than it is here. Hope your other job searches go well in this tough economy.




Yeah, who else is going to have the schedule to run a game anywhere from 11 AM to 11 PM? Plus I'm putting extra effort into making the game memorable.

Job hunting currently: a nearby yogurt shop/bakery opening soon, a nearby pita place opening soon, a nearby clothing store, and a nearby bakery. I'm getting some help with a temp agency too. I'm also trying places in Manhattan but because I live in Queens but I'm not expecting to get anything outside my borough when there's bound to be plenty of competition. 

The yogurt shop/bakery would be great because I live just a few blocks from it. I also like cookies (the kind you eat). 

TODAY'S UPDATE

Things are starting to look up. My computer was crashing a lot but it seems to be getting better after I loosened the hard drive by deleting a lot of useless junk files.

The website for the business is in working order, barely. The crashes delayed my efforts a bit so a lot of the stuff won't be ready until the weekend.

I went to my first business networking party. I handed out about 30 business cards. I'm going to start placing online ads. 

I'm hitting a few bumps but things seem to be moving along.

What will come first? A job or a client for the business? Ladies and gentlemen place your bets.


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## Captain_Commando (Apr 29, 2009)

Today is my first run as an official RPGA DM. Yay. I'm bringing the heat on this one. I'll be sure to learn a lot from how the players react to this session.

TODAY'S UPDATE

30 cards handed out at the first networking party were just the beginning. I also met some people in businesses potentially useful to mine (web design, promotional products, etc.). Setting up a network of contacts, clients, and recommendations is the focus of the first few weeks.

I'm starting to post ads now. The complete range of initial services will be up by next week. For now, I can be immediately contacted for running LFR games.

I'm trying out using my own original artwork in addition to the other materials I'm bringing in for today's RPGA meetup (free to join).  I'm getting a handle on how much time it takes to "professionally enhance" a module session. For example, 12-15 cinematic drawings will take up to 3-5 hours per module. If I get repeat requests for the same modules in my business it will greatly cut down the average amount of prep time I devote per session.


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## Drkfathr1 (Apr 29, 2009)

It's like Napolean Dynamite and Dwight Shrute had a love child.


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## rowport (Apr 29, 2009)

Drkfathr1 said:


> It's like Napolean Dynamite and Dwight Shrute had a love child.




I think Bruce Lee or Chuck Norris is mixed in there somewhere.  You need to account for the numchux.


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## Tav_Behemoth (Apr 30, 2009)

Original artwork is potentially a valuable contribution to a session - it's certainly not a skill I have as a DM, and as a player I love it when one of the artists in a group does a sketch of my character. Making some of your art available for potential customers to check out is a good idea, on your website and/or on artists' galleries. Since your online postings attract lots of attention (for better or worse), you should put links to that in your .sig file.


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## Ktulu (Apr 30, 2009)

10-1 odds he drew a Liger; bred for its skills in magic, you know.


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## Plissken (Apr 30, 2009)

Tay_Behemoth, are you still in South Korea? As a Korean-American I've always wondered what board gaming and rpg gaming was like in SK. I knew nothing was going on with PnP but wondered about board gaming. In an earlier post you said board gaming was just catching on in these "game rooms"? Are these game rooms part of the PC Bangs (rooms), or are they just for board games?


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## ArghMark (Apr 30, 2009)

Captain Commando, please listen to me for your own sake and for the sake of the people close to you. I understand I am an internet nobody, but it seems you are at least reading the threads, if not taking the advice given. I read up to about page 6, if I missed anything but felt I must post, if nothing more than to assist a fellow gamer. I understand you are in a stressful situation due to your father passing away, but business decisions are not made when stressed.

I believe you are making an unwise financial risk that could mean you lose everything.

As a futures trader, I never risk more than 10% of my income and rarely more than 2%. This allows me to take financial risks regularly. Some pay off, others do not. Assuming I risk 10% of my capital for each trade, there is a low statistical chance that I will lose 10 trades in a row. 

This is a risk I am willing and able to take, because I am in a financial position where these options are available to me. Even if I lose the trading capital, I am in no danger of starving; my work and other financial interests will eventually replenish my ability to trade again. 

You, on the other hand, are living in rooms rented by your mother and are assisted (financially I assume) by your brother. You effectively have little to no income in a city I assume to be very expensive. I'm not sure what food stamps are but basically I assume you are close to destitute.

I believe you are not in a position to take financial risks. Starting ANY new business is a financial risk, ask anyone - I'm sure there's a few on this board who have done so. You are outlaying capital that you simply won't be guaranteed to get back when you have limited abilities to spend money on food!

If you start your GMing position, its in its early stages you must expect that unseen errors or assumptions in your business plan will cause your first earnings to (at least) be less than your full earning potential. I've never opened a new business but you can be certain that new things are shaky.

You are operating under the assumption that you will have some clients. This is a risk you are taking. And if you get none? Then your original financial plan will have failed. You will have no profit and will have spent a lot.  At this time, you are still struggling to bring food to the table. 

Even if you do continue with your plan, your monthly profit seemed to be $19 dollars. Is that right, or did I misread the column? So in one year, assuming no unforeseen emergencies(!?), you make what, $227?

Assume, for the sake of your financial future, that your brothers assistance dries up and you can no longer live with your mother. Can you support your own lifestyle? I take it the answer is no. 

This requires that you shelve this project until a later time when your finances can reasonably absorb the loss. Many of the posters in this thread have been needlessly sarcastic or deliberately hurtful, but they were attempting to assist you. Even the posters who supported you did so conditionally. Be wary!

As I know, you are also looking for jobs. Please practice restraint in interviews. There are many ways to tell people what they want to hear. You may work at Burger King, but if it lets you and your mother eat and save, then at a later, more financially wise point, you could begin to approach game stores.

If you are worried about qualifications, think of your skills. Talk to game stores! I'm certain they need knowledgable staff. You could definately sell yourself as someone who knows a lot about 4e, and can introduce others to the hobby for instance, if you don't want to work the deep fryer.


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## Captain_Commando (Apr 30, 2009)

Tav_Behemoth said:


> Original artwork is potentially a valuable contribution to a session - it's certainly not a skill I have as a DM, and as a player I love it when one of the artists in a group does a sketch of my character. Making some of your art available for potential customers to check out is a good idea, on your website and/or on artists' galleries. Since your online postings attract lots of attention (for better or worse), you should put links to that in your .sig file.




Before prepping the RPGA session, it had been a while since I last drew. I'm going to recalibrate myself the next couple of days before I post art up. My art for the Saturday meetup should look good enough for show.

My original estimate for time consumption making original art for sessions was a bit off. The prep and execution for the game I ran for today's RPGA meetup was a very educational experience for me. It was a good practice run. I made some mistakes but managed to get through it okay. I'm going to be participating every week if possible to keep myself practiced and sharpen my skills.

The drawings I did were okay I think but a little rushed. I could do them better but I also have to balance the time consumption so that I'm not over-stretched. I'm going to try to keep them at no more than 12 pics for a standard 4-5 hour session or 25 pics for an extended 8-10 hour session.

I posted an ad in the EN Marketplace with a photo of myself. It's got the address for the business site. The full range of initial services should be complete sometime next week.

I'm considering special discount offers. I'm still open to suggestions on that.


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## Tav_Behemoth (Apr 30, 2009)

Captain_Commando said:


> I posted an ad in the EN Marketplace with a photo of myself. It's got the address for the business site.




That's a good start, but the site link should still be in your .sig file. A Google search for a professional GM (assuming there are people out there searching for one, which isn't likely to be the case; part of why this business plan is difficult is that you have to create a demand, not just tap an existing one) is much more likely to turn up this thread than that ad.



Plissken said:


> Tay_Behemoth, are you still in South Korea?... Are these game rooms part of the PC Bangs (rooms), or are they just for board games?




I live in NYC - I visited South Korea in '04 when Behemoth3 was invited to an international game development conference, free airfare & all. This was weird enough that I checked with the State Department to make sure it wasn't a scam! In all probability, they'd mistaken us for a publisher of computer RPGs; certainly every other company we met there was in the video game sector. As part of the trip I tried to learn as much as I could about the Korean hobby gaming scene. At the time, pen and paper RPGs had very little presence despite the huge popularity of MMORPGs. I talked to a publisher who'd done a licensed translation of GURPS, who said they were trying to create a market for Korean-language RPGs where basically none had existed before; there might have been a translation of 2nd ed. D&D IIRC but nothing since then. Certainly none of the Korean MMORPG developers I met with had any understanding that RPGs had ever or could exist without computers, except for my translator who'd played D&D (maybe even OD&D) at a US military base! This was in sharp contrast to the Germans, who definitely had roleplaying backgrounds and were interested in developing a new pen and paper ruleset to be the backbone for a prehistoric cRPG they were working on, and even to the American developers (Cryptic Studios) that were being published by Korean giant NCSoft & hiring PnP talent like Zeb Cook and Shane Hensley to write for City of Heroes. 

Board games, on the other hand, had recently undergone a craze similar to the original karaoke bar craze; the first game store had been extremely successful selling eurogames like Settlers of Cataan near Seoul University, to the point where it was staying open 24 hours so fans could play games. The game cafes are like PC bangs in that having a space to play is part of what you pay for, but they're a separate thing - much more like a Barnes & Noble Starbucks cafe than like an internet cafe. There were some native Korean board game developers - one company had produced a licensed Lineage board game, and the owner of the game cafe I met with was also working on self-publishing a family game he'd invented.


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## Janx (Apr 30, 2009)

Tav_Behemoth said:


> Original artwork is potentially a valuable contribution to a session - it's certainly not a skill I have as a DM, and as a player I love it when one of the artists in a group does a sketch of my character. Making some of your art available for potential customers to check out is a good idea, on your website and/or on artists' galleries. Since your online postings attract lots of attention (for better or worse), you should put links to that in your .sig file.




The trick is to have good work.  Bad art will hurt you more than no art.

One trick I've used is to get a light table (or box), and sketch over a piece that has elements you need.  It'll improve your skills, and you can quickly transform a mundane piece into something fantasy.

For my Babylon5 as D&D fantasy game, I re-drew Londo a G'kar as a gnome and dwarf.  Took about an hour for each with the light box.  Basically I traced their general features and added modifications (eliminating the alien aspects, as well).  It worked out well enough, and by redrawing the whole thing, it looked better than "markering in a beard on G'Kar.


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## Vyvyan Basterd (Apr 30, 2009)

I checked out your site CC and I think it looks pretty good.

I still question whether anyone would pay your fee. I can't imagine any circumstance where I ever would. Your price-per-person for a group of five could buy a copy of any of the published adventures on Amazon with some change left over. And the adventure would provide at least 4 4-5 hour sessions. For a group of five it places the cost at roughly $1 per person per session to run an adventure like that for themselves (free now that WotC has put up KotS for free). I understand the value of not have to prepare and run the adventure yourself, but the cost difference between $1 and your $25.20 per session would place some big perspective on the value of having you run it instead of me. Especially considering now that most opinions (even those who dislike 4E) center on the fact that 4E is easier to run and more fun for the DM.

I wish you luck, but I'm still not seeing the market for this type of service. Too many people provide this service for free.


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## timbannock (Apr 30, 2009)

Vyvyan Basterd said:


> I still question whether anyone would pay your fee. I can't imagine any circumstance where I ever would. Your price-per-person for a group of five could buy a copy of any of the published adventures on Amazon with some change left over. And the adventure would provide at least 4 4-5 hour sessions. For a group of five it places the cost at roughly $1 per person per session to run an adventure like that for themselves (free now that WotC has put up KotS for free). I understand the value of not have to prepare and run the adventure yourself, but the cost difference between $1 and your $25.20 per session would place some big perspective on the value of having you run it instead of me. Especially considering now that most opinions (even those who dislike 4E) center on the fact that 4E is easier to run and more fun for the DM.
> 
> I wish you luck, but I'm still not seeing the market for this type of service. Too many people provide this service for free.




Agreed.

Your website looks good...professional and well done, if a bit of a menu nightmare on the left-hand side.

Your marketing content's not bad either, though you stress family-friendly an awful lot, which I HIGHLY doubt is the way to go.  Are you marketing to gamers, gamers' parents, both, or something more general?  I think you're failing in this regard, but you obviously have the tools to improve this area.  Work on that.

But your pricing...is...atrocious.  I would not pay you this rate for what you do.  None of my friends would.  Many of my friends LOVE to game, but hate DMing.  I'm moving to Cali, so they will be without a regular DM.  Guess what? ...they would still never pay your rate.  Ever.  I can't think of a single gamer of all the ones I've met and played with (and believe me, I'm talking of well over 100 people that I know personally [in varying degrees, of course!  I'm not that popular]).

I'm not trying to be mean...you've seen my other posts, and I obviously WANT to like what you're doing, and WANT to respect what you do.  But there's no way you'll get this rate, certainly not regularly enough to make it worthwhile.


And the person who posted about your overall profits has the right of it.  Unless you're fully booked with clients at the rate you're asking for, you are screwed.  And frankly, your rate is ridiculous, so you will never have that much of a client base to even approach fully booked.

If you need interview help, head on over to your local bookstore and look in the self-help section.  Honestly.  Lots of people immediately think self help = bullsh*%, but you're not working right now, so what have you got to lose if you go to the bookstore and just skim a few books on interview processes, negotiations, etc.?

And there are definitely tons of jobs where you work...as I mentioned, I have a friend out there, and he sees stuff all the time.  You might have to dig around a little, but it's there.  And it's a lot more lucrative than your business model.

PM if you want interview advice.  I've worked for over 35 companies, several of them very big national and international companies.  When I go on an interview, I find that I am almost ALWAYS hired on the spot, or by the second interview (even at places that regularly require 3 interviews).


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## Harr (Apr 30, 2009)

neuronphaser said:


> But your pricing...is...atrocious.  I would not pay you this rate for what you do.  None of my friends would.  Many of my friends LOVE to game, but hate DMing.  I'm moving to Cali, so they will be without a regular DM.  Guess what? ...they would still never pay your rate.  Ever.  I can't think of a single gamer of all the ones I've met and played with (and believe me, I'm talking of well over 100 people that I know personally [in varying degrees, of course!  I'm not that popular]).




I, on the other hand, think it's a great idea to ignore gamers.

Gamers are cheap. Gamers are cynical. Gamers without fail believe they are smarter than you and can one-up you at any and every turn (as if anybody who reads these or the WotC boards ever needed any of this to be spelled out).

But guess what. There are many people in the world who AREN'T gamers. In fact, I've heard rumors that there are actually MORE people in the world who aren't gamers, than those who are! (I can't confirm this myself though).

You wanna market gaming to gamers who already game on their own terms? You're gonna have a hard time. But, you wanna bring a one-time gaming experience to non-gamers who are curious about it but could never do it by themselves? A novelty experience for the bored couple with nothing to do this Thursday night, whom would think nothing of dropping $30 on an evening's entertainment, even if just to try it for the sake of trying it and later saying it sucked? The world is stuffed with people like that. Go there and you might have a shot. A very long shot, but a shot.

(Edit -> This is not to say I don't endorse also continuing to look for a real job with everything you've got at the same time. That goes without saying I should think)


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## Captain_Commando (Apr 30, 2009)

neuronphaser said:


> Agreed.
> 
> But your pricing...is...atrocious.  I would not pay you this rate for what you do.  None of my friends would.  Many of my friends LOVE to game, but hate DMing.  I'm moving to Cali, so they will be without a regular DM.  Guess what? ...they would still never pay your rate.  Ever.  I can't think of a single gamer of all the ones I've met and played with (and believe me, I'm talking of well over 100 people that I know personally [in varying degrees, of course!  I'm not that popular]).
> 
> ...




My target is about $900 a month so I don't need to be fully booked at my rates, just 2-3 sessions a week to meet my needs and turn a profit. Also, my rates are based on actual local entertainment costs. It's between broadway shows and movies in NYC, and it's not for everyone. There are those in NYC who can easily afford this luxury, especially if splitting the cost in a group. The real profit however will probably come from publishing my adventures a little bit later on, whether it's through a game company or through my site as pdf downloads. 

The big problem may have been my resumé, which I've been getting help with recently. There were things that I didn't put on it which I probably should have in the beginning. Things like MS word, photoshop, and volunteer work I've done for a church.

Tav's post about his adventures in S. Korea reminded me that someone suggested that I try marketing to military people with this. Ranking officers might be into games that test their teamwork and strategy skills. The war games service I'm going to put up might be a big sell in that case.


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## Janx (Apr 30, 2009)

A couple of good points on pricing have come up.

If you charge a group rate, that implies a group is trying to book you.  If there's a group in existance already, they would be HIGHLY motivated to just do it themselves, rather than pay you.

This means your better target audience is individuals who want to game, but have no group (don't know anybody).  What you'd be selling is your ability to GM and put together a group of people.

Since size of group is your problem, not theirs, and the larger the group, the harder it is, stick to charging individuals.  If I play in your game, charge me $X.  It's not my business that there were 3 or 5 players at the table.

I'd also recommend developing a simple pricing scheme, say a flat rate of $X for a session, and then make sure your adventure was written to take 4 hours.  That may mean speed GMing, it may mean giving them a bit of extra (you spend 5 hours with the group, but only charge them for 4 hours).

This would be kind of like how a band might charge $100 a man to play 3 sets in 3 hours, but they spend an hour setting up before the gig, a half-hour tearing down, and travel time.  Basically, you deliver a product that an approximate amount of time, but you get paid a flat rate.

For the actual price you charge, you factor in expenses, time spent prepping and working, and compare the time spent versus how much you'd make at your other job (say minimum wage of $6 an hour).

Let's use these numbers:
5 hours adventure writing
5 hours materials making (props, NPCs, hand-outs, etc)
5 hours running a game (4 hour planned, 1 hour of stretch)

That's 15 hours, which working at minimum wage would be: $90

Ideally, you'd want to make $90 minimum to run this a session.

From there, you need to figure out what to charge, you could hit the whole group for 90, but frankly, I'd be mad if I had to pay more, just because YOU couldn't fill all the seats.  This is why group pay sucks.

If you optimistically assume the D&D 4 PC party standard (basically, no game if you can't get 4 people), then you'd just divide the $90 by four, and charge each player $22.50.  If less show up, you'll have to run some helper NPCs to fill the party and take the pay hit.  If more show up, you will be rewarded for your work with a bonus.

I encourage you to take the math I used, and plug in your own values.  How much time does it take to prep a game?  How long will it take to run a session.  Add them, and multiply by the Hourly pay you could reasonably have been making.  Then divide by the number of players you realistically expect to have (low-ball it)

The result is the MINIMUM you should charge.  You also need to be careful of charging too much, otherwise folks will simply decide its not worth it.  Folks can be spendy or tight, it depends on how much they value your product.

Also be aware, that if the minimum $ you calculate sounds too high, that's a warning sign that this is not a viable product to make money on.



The above exercise gets you a minimum price, compared to alternative income sources (basically, a different job).  It's the minimum price you're REQUIRED to charge per good economic sense, otherwise, you should be doing something else.

The other math to do is the optimistic math, of how much do I need to charge per your DESIRED, for your target income.  After completing the first exercise, you now know how much time each session will take.

You'll want to know the maximum number of sessions you can run (per week), as well as practical levels.  In my example, it takes 15 hours per session.  Across a 40 hour work week, that's basically 2 sessions a week, maybe 3.  Let's pretend 3, and multiple that by 50 weeks (2 weeks off for holidays, because while you may want to work your customers aren't around), I get 150 sessions per year.

Now let's figure out how much money I want to make from this venture.  Federal poverty level is $12,000, let's pretend that's my goal.

That means, each session needs to bring in at least $80 (12000/150)

That's actually close to what the other method gave.

However, $12,000 for a full time job is pretty lousy.  If we up that to what some starting teachers get (one of the lowest paid "educated" jobs), that's 30-40 thousand.  Let's pretend $30,000 because we're not greedy.

You'd need to charge $200 a session.  And that's assuming you are FULL time running sessions.

The fact of the matter is, anybody in a self-employed service business (say computer repair, plumbing, etc) is never working full time.  There's dead time, driving time where there's no billable work time (which for you, just like a plumber, is time on site, doing the job).  This is why they charge a lot of money.  Because the customer is not only paying for the time onsite, but also the dry-spell between jobs.  Otherwise, you'd go hungry.

This means, you've can't assume a full time load of 3 sessions per week.  You've got to assume a slower stream of jobs, and that's just to get realistic estimates.  Let's scale back to 1 session a week (because you've assembled a regular group who meets every saturday).

That's 50 sessions for $30,000, which in turn means charging $600 per session, or an assumption of $150 per player in a four player group.

Using my base math of 15 hours of work per session, to make $30,000 a year, assuming a decent level of business, you'd need to charge a minimum of $22.50 just to break even, and $150 per player just to ensure that you met a salary goal.

Just so you know, using the minimum wage comparison of $90 per session times 50 sessions per year is $4,500 which is NOT a lot of money when spread over a year.

Whereas $6 an hour times a 40 hour work week times 50 weeks = $12,000

Also, assume that taxes will be 40% of your income.  It'll be less than that, but it's the safe way to make sure you don't get surprised by all the kinds of taxes you'll need to report (federal, medicare, SS, state, local, etc).

I would be curious for you to use my math, with your numbers, and post them here.
That'll tell us what your estimates are and show product viability


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## Janx (Apr 30, 2009)

I see you posted a few numbers while I was writing my lengthy post about math.

Lessee, $900 a month
2-3 sessions a week, which I think is the max you're realistically going to get.

Note, max does not mean likely.  But let's look at max first.

let's assume 2-3 a week means 2.5 and multiply that by 4 to get to per month scale.

That's 10 sessions for $900 which is $90.  Funny, because that's what my math said you need to charge if you spend 15 hours a week working on it.

I realize there's some fuzziness in how long you might actually spend working on sessions, but if you spend significantly MORE than 15 hours per session, you are over-working, compared to doing a minimum wage job (under-paid).

If you can spend LESS than 15 hours per session, that gives you free time to work somewhere else, and that's actually good economic sense.

However, those numbers are only good if you're truly working at capacity (per my time estimates).

Odds are good, you won't be getting that level of work, even if there is some demand.  Especially starting out.

That means, you actually need to charge more per session, in order to meet your goals (or at least be closer to reaching your financial goal while not running at maximum capacity).  Ironically, once you get the system going, and a client base working, you can actually make more money than your minimum.  But the trick is you've got to get the ball going, and make a fair wage while doing so.

I'd recommend to base your estimates on a lower frequency.  Obviously, the extreme would be 1 session per month (asking for $900 for that one session would be difficult).  

Let's shoot for 1 session per week as an optimistic yet not maximum goal.  THat then means you need to charge $225 per session, which would be $56.25 per player in a four PC game.

$50 is pretty pricey for my demographic.  In a more affluent market, it may not be a big deal.  Ultimately, since your selling a service that many people do themselves, your target market IS wealthy people.

For my self, as a tech sector professional, given that the level of work could be equal to a day job (especially if running at capacity), I would have to use my salary for my calculations, and that would price me out of the market.  I would have to, because I have to pay my bills.

Basically, selling the service at a rate that at best would meet Federal Poverty standards is not worth your time.  There are better jobs out there.  Given that the math performed on those numbers makes prices that most people balk at, that shows that the feasibility of selling this service is low.


I did a google for "Professional Game Master" and found 2 relevant links to people who sell this service.  And they weren't at the top (it was instead forum pages discussing professional GMing).  The idea of selling GMing services isn't new.  The fact that pretty much nobody is doing it is because the viability of doing so is low.


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## Captain_Commando (Apr 30, 2009)

Janx said:


> That means, you actually need to charge more per session, in order to meet your goals (or at least be closer to reaching your financial goal while not running at maximum capacity).  Ironically, once you get the system going, and a client base working, you can actually make more money than your minimum.  But the trick is you've got to get the ball going, and make a fair wage while doing so.
> 
> Ultimately, since your selling a service that many people do themselves, your target market IS wealthy people.
> 
> ...




One has to take local price of entertainment into consideration, as well as local wealth levels.

This is currently a NYC-based business, where the price of a movie ticket is as high as $12, an off-broadyway ticket can range from $20-60, and a broadway ticket can range from $100-200. The price per person with my rates is the price of a large cornbeef sandwich at some eateries in the city. The price per group being the price of a single Kobe beef burger (I think). This is a city where you can get a $1,000 omlette.

There are a lot of companies/corporations, gamers, and wealthy socialites that I can market to.

I'm going to be offering a relatively broad range of services, not just DnD adventures so I'm covering more than one niche.

Publishing/selling the adventures and artwork that I generate for the service also has to be taken into consideration for total income.

Selling GMing services alone isn't viable, but I'm not just selling GMing services.

That said, if I get even just one session hired a month at my current rates, that's a success for me since that'll cover my food and transportation while job hunting that month.


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## catsclaw227 (Apr 30, 2009)

Captain_Commando said:


> This is currently a NYC-based business, where the price of a movie ticket is as high as $12, an off-broadyway ticket can range from $20-60, and a broadway ticket can range from $100-200. The price per person with my rates is the price of a large cornbeef sandwich at some eateries in the city. The price per group being the price of a single Kobe beef burger (I think). This is a city where you can get a $1,000 omlette.
> 
> There are a lot of companies/corporations, gamers, and wealthy socialites that I can market to.



Off-Broadway and Broadway shows are all performed by seasoned professionals with loads of experience and sometimes have huge expensive sets and a long list of past achievements that draw in the patrons.  A person that visits a theatrical event is looking for, and expecting, an entirely different experience than you are offering.

The only way to accurately compare relative prices for things, is if the things being sold are similar things.  Its not as simple as lumping your services into Entertainment with an off-broadway show.

Also, have you considered the fact that, while there ARE a lot of companies and wealthy socialites you can market to, they aren't your target market in the first place?

I cannot think of ONE company that would hire you for team building skills with your resume.  You would need to have years of experience, have team building certifications, and likely have an extensive existing client list.

And how would wealthy socialites be interested in your services in the first place?

Are you an entertainer, a game facilitator or a team development business professional?



Captain_Commando said:


> My target is about $900 a month so I don't need to be fully booked at my rates, just 2-3 sessions a week to meet my needs and turn a profit.



Targeting your company's success at below poverty rates is not likely to be a strong financial move.



Captain_Commando said:


> ...someone suggested that I try marketing to military people with this. Ranking officers might be into games that test their teamwork and strategy skills. The war games service I'm going to put up might be a big sell in that case.



If you plan on teaching/training military professional on teamwork and strategy, or even war games, you better be an educated, ex-military or academic with loads of credentials.


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## crazy_cat (Apr 30, 2009)

Captain_Commando said:


> Ranking officers might be into games that test their teamwork and strategy skills. The war games service I'm going to put up might be a big sell in that case.



'So, you are facing an enemy who has strength of numbers on his side, and superior firepower; and he is dug in deep in a strongly fortified position on advantageous terrain with his men positioned to cover all approaches with interlocking fields of fire. 

I recommend using a fly spell coupled with improved invisibility - once you have position on him use a Fireball spell, or Chain Lightning - you'll have suprise. If you win initiative go with another area effect spell ASAP...... etc etc'

Yeah, 'cos that'll work.


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## Tav_Behemoth (May 1, 2009)

Janx said:


> I did a google for "Professional Game Master" and found 2 relevant links to people who sell this service.




Could you post those links, Janx? It'd be interesting to see what they offer, how long they've been doing it, and what level of success they've had.


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## Remathilis (May 1, 2009)

I think you might be putting the cart before the horse here.

I don't know you from Adam. I can't tell if your a good DM, a killer DM, a monty-haul DM, a rules lawyer, or some dude who wears chainmail to game and worships Thor. 

In short, I'm hiring some dude who plays D&D and wants to be paid for it...

BUT

I'd pay GOOD money to have Monte Cook DM a session for me. Or Keith Baker, or Bruce Cordell, or Mike Mearls or even D&D Alumni of yore (Skip Williams, Zeb Cook). I'd LOVE to play some Greyhawk under Erik Mona or some Dragonlance under Wiess & Hickman. I'd have paid DAMN GOOD money to have played under Gygax or Arneson. 

[suckup] Heck, I'd even slip a five-spot to Kevin Kulp! [/suckup] 

But these people are professional WRITERS. I can open my D&D books and see their names emblazoned on them. I buy there books because their names are on it! I respect their work in Dragon Magazine and love previously written modules and articles. 

In short, I'd pay them to run because I KNOW their quality work as a writer. I've heard stories of them from conventions. They have a reputation.

Sadly, you'd need to do THAT before I'd pay for more than soda and chips. 

So rather than figure out the going rate for your time, try submitting some articles to Dungeon/Dragon, or to other 3PP works (Paizo, Ronin, Goodman). See if you can get your name on something, so that your sales pitch is not "I'm a dude who really knows D&D, pay me" but "I'm the dude who wrote X, Y, and Z, want me to run a session for you?"

(Its not that hard, heck even I got published in Dragon Roots magazine!)


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## aboyd (May 1, 2009)

I just saw his rates and uh... sorta surprising how badly that breaks down per player.  I mean, to play one of his standard games, for a group of around 6 people, each person is basically shelling out the cost of a D&D book.  _Every game._

I wasn't thinking a person would set rates compared to a Broadway production.  They are not at all similar.  I was thinking more along comparing it to other places that people pay to play D&D.  For example:

DDXP: $20
KublaCon: $40
DunDraCon: $45

That would include all-weekend gaming.  If you got only 3 games in, that's $15 per player per game at the high end, and $6-ish at the low end.

For Captain_Commando to charge $25 per player seems weird.  I mean, I'm pretty sure I'd rather spend $15 per game at DunDraCon.  Am I off base?


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## Plissken (May 1, 2009)

> Captain Commando: "There are a lot of companies/corporations, gamers, and wealthy socialites that I can market to."



Commando, reading this statement I don't think you know what you are doing and have no idea what you want to do. Do you have a clear end goal? It seems to me like you don't know and are just making things up as you go along and picking and choosing what sounds like it "just might work". An answer like "I want to run exciting, memorable games" isn't much of an answer and only answers the question, "What do I want?" It seems like you want to be running a business here and you're not in a business mindset.

Wealthy socialites? Companies and corporations? Yeah...I don't think so. First off, I doubt companies and corporations no less wealth socialites want to be playing fantasy games with a long haired Asian man in a green t-shirt. Even if you dress in a suit and tie, it doesn't make a difference. This is the wrong crowd. Companies and corporations are going to spend their money and licensed professionals or management companies with credible long history to do team building work or diversity training. I don't even know why you would want to market to wealthy socialites. Those "Kardashians" and rich people living in high-rise apartments...I doubt they will want to pretend to be a dwarf for even a millisecond. Why does WoTC not advertise in mainstream magazines? They said themselves, I'm sure according to their marketing professionals, the customers aren't there.

Second, your pricing is absolutely ridiculous. I just, I don't know what to say. I think you should have enough sense that there aren't many people willing to pay that much money to play. You say your goal is $900/month? I'm sorry that is just not realistic. Do people pay to play at conventions? Yes and no. Yes, they pay to enter into the convention for a weekend pass that allows them to play several games. They are not paying the GM to play. Cons are no justification in you charging for your games. If you're going to charge something, the games should be free while you charge for character slots. I know a guy in my local city who does this and he has people piled up in his games. Or, charge like $20 for like 2-3 days of gaming, like a mini-con. Supply and Demand. There's just not enough people who are demanding a tabletop RPG game and be willing to pay for one. This isn't the 1970s where D&D was a huge hit.

Also, in the earlier posts you mentioned how creative storytelling was an important goal in your games. Wake up call: not all people want that. 2nd ed. was one of my faves because all the campaign settings that came out for it encouraged storytelling. However, I'm running a 4e game and a few of the players don't give a damn about storytelling. I KNOW they JUST LOVE COMBAT.

Commando, I saw your post on the RPG.net forums. You were shot down. You've been shot down by many a people here. You reposted, and were shot down again in the RPG.net forums and here.

Wake up, please! Did you go to college? Finish high-school? What did you major in? Vocation training? Please, face real life and tackle real life. I'm not saying that professional GM'ing is impossible. I'm saying it is damn near improbable.

Commando, you claim to have much creativity in story telling. Why not put all that focus into entering into module writing competitions, writing competitions, submit idea proposals, submit adventure ideas to Paizo for their Pathfinder Society line? Publish a few .PDFs or books? Get them reviewed? Do work that will get you noticed, build a reputation, and when you build a name for yourself and still want to do something like this, pursue it then.

I'll tell you one thing...you sure are not building a good reputation so far.

Have you talked about this with the people who attend the local RPGA meeting meetup in NYC?


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## Remathilis (May 1, 2009)

Plissken said:


> Have you talked about this with the people who attend the local RPGA meeting meetup in NYC?




That reminds me: you'd best be a Herald-Level DM for the RPGA in case your clientele want you to run LFR modules for them...


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## Janx (May 1, 2009)

Tav_Behemoth said:


> Could you post those links, Janx? It'd be interesting to see what they offer, how long they've been doing it, and what level of success they've had.




Let me google that for you

Now that I run it, there's really only "Becky" the professional GM, who was mentioned earlier


In short, there's not really anybody doing this.  Otherwise they'd be plastered at the TOP of a google search, because that's what anybody with brains would do when they start their business.  If this were truly a viable business, multpile people would have done it and kept it going in the last 30 years.

And I agree with some other folks, I'd be more likely to pay PirateCat, whom I've never met, assume he isn't published, but I've heard good things about his games, than CaptainCommando.   CC doesn't have a reputation as a good GM.  The discussion on this forum makes him look like a desperate and starry eyed high school graduate, who's business plan is being disassembled on a daily basis.  Honestly, if I found his real name, and he later started getting published, I'd probably have a negative reaction to his product.  I'm sorry, but you've failed to impress me.  This thread has too much negative publicity in it.  Will it matter right now?  Maybe not.  But it would do CC much good if this thread died, people disassociate him from this thread, and it never shows up in a google search.  From there, if CC actually resurfaces with a real successful business then he's got a chance.  But right now, not so good.


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## tallyrand (May 1, 2009)

A suggestion for additional sources of revenue as a Mercenary DM, don't overlook the lucrative world of Corporate Sponsorship and in-game Product Placement.

Player1: Crap, that last orc nearly killed me, I drink one of my healing potions.
DM:  As the cool refreshing taste of the Grape Jolt hits your throat you can spend a Healing Surge and gain an additional 2d6 hp.
Player2: We are still down pretty bad, is there a safe place around for an Extended Rest?
DM: You could always stay at an Econo Travelodge, there are hundreds of convienient locations and always reasonable rates.


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## timbannock (May 1, 2009)

I was just reading for my MBA course about some "cognitive biases" in negotiations.  You should really pay attention to this stuff:

- Irrational Escalation of Commitment: becoming more commited to a goal or stance when doing so is more and more likely to become a path to failure.  Have you put more time into this storytelling idea than you have to applying at other jobs and really concentrating on improving your interview skills?  If you can't interview well now, what are your chances of doing so later on, when you want to make more than $900 a month (you know, like when you want to move out on your own, maybe have a sweet new ride, some women, kids, and all that glory?).

- Anchoring & Adjustment: creating a false standard (an anchor) by which you measure adjustments in your processes.  Basing your prices on local entertainment would be an anchor, in your case.

- Overconfidence: what are your professional achievements in team-building exercises again?  How long have you been a business consultant?  What other family-friendly events have you pulled off for the price you are asking?  Have you ever worked at youth center with children, or at a school?

- The Law of Small Numbers: drawing conclusions from small sample sets.  You are basing your pricing on tickets to go see a Broadway show or a movie.  These are two things that are in demand by thousands upon thousands and even millions upon millions of people EVERY DAY.  How much demand have you received based on your pricing and marketing scheme thus far?

- Endowment Effect: over-valuing what you own or believe you possess.  Exactly what are your marketable skills again?  More importantly, who are your references, and why should I trust either you or them?

- Ignoring Other's Cognitions: how much have you really looked at the arguments put forth by the folks here on ENWorld and over at RPG.net about your plans?

When you researched pricing, did you just go online and look up "Broadway Tix" and "Movietickets.com," or did you find out the REASONS why these things cost what they do?

And more importantly than anything else I've said so far: exactly how do you execute your team-building exercises?  You have a project plan with measurable goals, or do you mean "playing D&D will help your company's employees work better together."  Because that's awful nebulous...


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## Mircoles (May 1, 2009)

Paying someone to Dm for a group seems really repugnant. It's like paying someone to be your friend. 

I play RPG's to find friends and people with similiar interests, not only for just playing a fun game.

I mean seriously really repugnant. It puts a sick feeling in my stomach just thinking about it.

The idea of getting paid by a store to bring people in seems interesting, but gaming stores oftan have tables for gamers to use and gamers fill them. These gamers also rarely seem to buy anything and if they were to be charged to play in the game too, I doubt that they would buy anything at all. 

The whole concept just bothers me.


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## Vyvyan Basterd (May 1, 2009)

Mircoles said:


> Paying someone to Dm for a group seems really repugnant. It's like paying someone to be your friend.
> 
> I play RPG's to find friends and people with similiar interests, not only for just playing a fun game.




That's you then. Many convention-goers would disagree with you. Of course not many of them would be willing to shell out what he's asking for a single game.


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## Captain_Commando (May 1, 2009)

neuronphaser said:


> 1. Irrational Escalation of Commitment: becoming more commited to a goal or stance when doing so is more and more likely to become a path to failure.  Have you put more time into this storytelling idea than you have to applying at other jobs and really concentrating on improving your interview skills?  If you can't interview well now, what are your chances of doing so later on, when you want to make more than $900 a month (you know, like when you want to move out on your own, maybe have a sweet new ride, some women, kids, and all that glory?).
> 
> 2. Anchoring & Adjustment: creating a false standard (an anchor) by which you measure adjustments in your processes.  Basing your prices on local entertainment would be an anchor, in your case.
> 
> ...




1. First of all, job openings that require my skill set that are also in my borough don't pop up every single day. In addition, there are others competing for the same jobs. I'm also not looking to get a full-time position so my options are further limited. I had one bad interview because they were looking for someone to make a longer commitment than I was willing to. My resumé was also quite terrible until recently I started receiving help fixing it. There's a lot of dead time between applications and interviews. The business I'm starting is a side income in case things remain dry on the job front. There are plans to grow the business to make a lot more than $900 monthly.

2. Entertainment is entertainment. My primary targets for marketing are people who can afford spending $21-25 per person on a night of entertainment. Geez, a corn beef sandwich can go for that much in a Manhattan eatery. The Broadway ticket price is just one example of many to illustrate how pricey things can get in the city yet people continue to spend on those things.

3. On the gaming front, I'm building up my skills and reputation through the local gaming community. Anyone can go to the meetup.com site to see that I'm being active in practicing and improving my craft. On the storytelling front, I have been a volunteer children's Sunday School teacher/children's play director. That service will be ready next week. I'm still tweaking the site (it's only the first week the site has been up after all).

4. Yeesh, I just started the site up. The full service menu won't be ready until next week. Ask me again the week after that.

5. Exactly how much personal information do you expect me to share here? 

6. Have you SEEN the differences between this plan and the one before it? I've taken A LOT of the arguments (the ones that were valid anyway) into consideration as I've developed this current venture.

7. The reasons for the costs are not as important as the fact that people in NYC pay them anyway plus even more like snacks, t-shirts, etc. I don't know about where YOU live but life in THIS CITY can be a lot more expensive than other places.

8. The team-building benefits of playing a team-oriented game where you have to work together to overcome obstacles and solve problems together are kind of obvious. I'll be posting some more on the business site to elaborate further (again I emphasize that this is only the first week that  the site has been up). A lot of team-building exercises don't tend to be very complicated in their structure (word games, board games, building a car together, etc.). Build trust. Build cooperation. Build communication. It's pretty straightforward.


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## Dathalas (May 1, 2009)

Captain,

You've got a lot of really good feedback in this thread to your idea, even though some of it might sting at times.

The best ideas I've heard in this thread for actually making a legitimate income from your DMing skill set are:

(1) Organize Game Days
(2) Write adventures and sell them as PDFs.

Why not just focus on these two ideas and see what happens?  The benefit is that you've got a clearly defined market this way (current 4e D&D players) and have a way to actually reach them (PDF sale sites, forums).

If I were in your situation, here's what I would do:

(1)  Write a couple of adventures for a Game Day.

(2)  Grab a couple of buddies to do the same.

(3)  Find a place that will let you host a small Game Day (about 12 to 15 people) for free.  I've done them here in my area at friendly local game shops, coffee shops, and community centers.

(4)  Advertise the Game Day and charge $5 admission to play two games in one day with an hour break in between.  Just explain the admission is a small fee to cover your costs.

(5)  Use the feedback from the Game Day to improve and playtest your adventures.  

(6)  Now put those adventures in a PDF format with pretty maps that can be printed out and sell them through RPGNow and DriveThru RPG for $3 to $5 a piece. 

(7)  Repeat the cycle as often as you can manage. 

If you run fun events, your Game Days will just keep growing.  You'll attract both quality DMs that want to be a part of it (test your DMs out ... have them run a game for you and some friends) and players.  

The nice thing about this model is that you've got your adventure PDFs constantly up for sale and you can market those to the players at your Game Days.

Other random business advice:
(1) Drop the "Captain Commando" moniker and just use your real name.  You will get a much better reception and come off as more real.

(2) Make sure you're friendly and introduce yourself to every new player at your Game Days.  Hand them a sheet with information about the adventures you have available in PDF and where to buy them (if they like your Game Day, they'll probably pitch the adventures to their own DM or buy them if they are DMs).

(3) When you're talking to new players, don't talk about yourself.  Ask them questions about themselves.  People like to talk about themselves a lot.  So if you ask them questions and encourage them to talk about themselves, they'll appreciate your interest and tell everyone you're a great conversationalist.  

I really wish you the best of luck, but it seems pretty clear from your answers that you have zero clue who your market is for your current business model.  You're trying to create a market that doesn't exist for your product.

Shift your focus a little and tap into the market that does exist and wants what you have to offer.  You'll certainly increase your chances of success.

Take care and good luck.


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## Maggan (May 1, 2009)

Mircoles said:


> Paying someone to Dm for a group seems really repugnant.




I have no problem paying for services. That can be a haircut, a movie ticket or a really good DM. I'm lucky that I don't have to pay for a DM, but on principle I see nothing wrong with the concept, whatsoever.

It's just someone offering a service to those who would like to pay for it, for whatever reasons. Nothing repugnant about that, IMO.

That said, I don't think there's much mileage in offering DMing for money, but I don't have a problem with the concept, and I really have a hard time understanding why it would be repugnant to offer the services.

/M


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## Vyvyan Basterd (May 1, 2009)

Captain_Commando said:


> 2. Entertainment is entertainment. My primary targets for marketing are people who can afford spending $21-25 per person on a night of entertainment. Geez, a corn beef sandwich can go for that much in a Manhattan eatery. The Broadway ticket price is just one example of many to illustrate how pricey things can get in the city yet people continue to spend on those things.




This is where I think you haven't done your market research. "Entertainment is entertainment" is like saying "pizza is pizza." Maybe in some areas of the country where a person can choose either Pizza Hut or Dominoes that _might_ be true. But a city like Chicago (where we love our pizza) makes a huge distinction between types of pizza.

Similarly, NYC is a center of entertainment and different forms of it will rate differently. That's why it costs so much more to see a Broadway play than it does to see a movie. You have basically priced your services at the cost of two movie tickets (assuming a full group) for a 4-5 hour session. So you are saying your form of entertainment is roughly equal to that of a movie. Really? Can you match the sights and sounds of a professionally produced movie?

And, as much as I love D&D, one has to admit that the game of D&D carries both a social stigma and in some people's eyes controversy. Companies are unlikely to hire you for team-building because of the controversies, real or imagined, that D&D carries. They can't risk placing a person with strong beliefs into something like that who might sue them for hostile workplace issues. And how many non-gamers do you expect to market "that game where you pretend to be an elf in your mom's basement" to? Again I think your services are only going to appeal to existing gamers or those already interested into getting into gaming that haven't yet. And your competition is all the DMs that do the job for free. You need to be infinitely better thatn the average DM to compete with free.

I think your only shot at making this work would be to form an after-school program or summer camp that caters to parents of young teens. That way you don't need child-care credentials, it would just be a club activity to keep teens out of trouble in their parents eyes. Of course for this you would need a stable location to pull off. I don't know if NYC even has park districts, but you might want to see if you can run a youth RPG club through them and earn your money that way.


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## timbannock (May 1, 2009)

Captain_Commando said:


> My primary targets for marketing are people who can afford spending $21-25 per person on a night of entertainment. Geez, a corn beef sandwich can go for that much in a Manhattan eatery. The Broadway ticket price is just one example of many to illustrate how pricey things can get in the city yet people continue to spend on those things.




- I don't know a single person living in NY that doesn't complain about the pricing either.  If you want to get started with a job that is reaching out to a demand that isn't even really there (at least not 100% guaranteed to be there in droves), you need to start at the LOWEST possible price point for it to be worthwhile.  That doesn't necessarily equal the optimal price for you personally.



Captain_Commando said:


> 4. Yeesh, I just started the site up. The full service menu won't be ready until next week. Ask me again the week after that.




- That's a problem right there.  These threads (at ENWorld, RPG.net, and the several other sites you've posted to) should serve as some indicator of the demand, not just that website.  How much is questionable, but they should not be wholly disregarded.  You've done other marketing research aside from your site as well: meetup.com and all that.  What has the reception been like there?  Has anyone bitten on your ideas yet?  Don't just focus on your website, believe me.  I work in eBusiness.  As an analyst.  Every stinkin' day.



Captain_Commando said:


> 5. Exactly how much personal information do you expect me to share here?




- My point isn't to ask for your references names and numbers.  My point is to have YOU look at how many references you have, what kind of source they are, and if they will actually help you in the sense that if someone asks them "Hey, is this guy good at running team-building sessions and all the other stuff he says he can do?" that they will turn around and not just say "Yes," but also say WHY you are the man for the job.  I don't care if your references are any good, because I'm not your target audience.  But your target audience will sure care in a big way!




Captain_Commando said:


> 7. The reasons for the costs are not as important as the fact that people in NYC pay them anyway plus even more like snacks, t-shirts, etc. I don't know about where YOU live but life in THIS CITY can be a lot more expensive than other places.




- I'm living in a really expensive city, and moving to one of the top 10 most expensive cities in the U.S.  And if I live in NY and my rent's expensive and the food's expensive and all that...doesn't that mean I have LESS disposable income?  Doesn't that mean I want to watch my spending THAT MUCH MORE?

Or, think of it this way: you're offering your services to businesses as well as gamers (and other folks).  Why would a business hire you?  Businesses always think about bottom line: what RESULTS will you bring them for the money you are charging?



Captain_Commando said:


> A lot of team-building exercises don't tend to be very complicated in their structure (word games, board games, building a car together, etc.). Build trust. Build cooperation. Build communication. It's pretty straightforward.




- Whoa, that's operating under some faulty information.  Team-building exercises are often VERY complicated.  Maybe not in the end-user's view, per se, but in how they get people interacting, building trust, etc.  Team-building exercises specifically have to have measurable results, actionable items.  You can't just say "being in the room together and playing a game is team-building."  It's so much more complicated than that.

If you want to ignore everything else I've said, then at least take this away from my posts: "Don't be so scattershot about your ideas.  Focus your market really tight at first, and then expand it afterward, after it's succeeded with a single market.  Currently you're trying to be too many things."  

Moreover, I think the idea of running your business VERY closely in tandem with a few local game stores is probably one of the best ideas ever.  That and/or publishing some adventures as PDFs.  These two options have built-in, focused markets for you to tap into, where there is already demand.  They would make great springboards for your business ventures later!

Please note that I come off as antagonistic sometimes because of my nature.  I don't mean to be.  I still have faith that your idea has merit, but I just want to point out potential real-world business pitfalls.  I have no beef with you personally, and frankly, your constant posting about this shows that you are nothing if not dedicated to this idea.  No matter how tough I am (or any other posters), nobody can take that away from you or deny it, and that's worthy of respect.

So please take all of my criticism in the most constructive light possible, as that is how it is meant to be.  Hell, if you don't ever respond to my posts, I'm not going to cry.  I just want you to reflect on what you're doing and do what's best for you and your intended business.  As a student of business and business-related subjects, I feel that I do have some expertise in the field.


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## Hereticus (May 1, 2009)

By the way Captain, have you considered what would happen to your game if you killed a paying player's character?

.



Captain_Commando said:


> Geez, a corn beef sandwich can go for that much in a Manhattan eatery.




I'd rather pay for the corned beef sandwich, and then play a free game of D&D.


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## Urizen (May 1, 2009)

Someone mentioned he should write adventures and sell them as PDF's.

I'll go a step further and pay him to write 4e (GSL licensed SRD compatible) adventures which I'll publish in pdf format (and in POD through lulu), if he's willing to step up to the plate and send me some examples of his writing.


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## Captain_Commando (May 1, 2009)

Urizen said:


> Someone mentioned he should write adventures and sell them as PDF's.
> 
> I'll go a step further and pay him to write 4e (GSL licensed SRD compatible) adventures which I'll publish in pdf format (and in POD through lulu), if he's willing to step up to the plate and send me some examples of his writing.




Actually, I'd already mentioned early on in the brainstorming for this that I'd look to publish the adventures as I write them for the business.

This saves time. Okay. I'll send a publish-version of 'Delver's Requiem' and perhaps another adventure or two before the end of May. Thank you. 

EDIT: I've decided to cut prices after all.

Neuronphaser: There have been a few on the forums saying they might pay if they lived in NYC or PMed me for info. Most of the posters don't fit my target market though. The main selling point of my GM services is convenience of location and schedule. I can't stress that enough. There are not many if any GMs making themselves nearly as available. I don't have to be infinitely better, just good enough to get the job done well. And what is your idea of an "average" GM?.

Hereticus: For character death, I'd been advised to perform a brief survey with a client including how the client would like character death handled. I'll give several suggested options including the use of backup characters, which I can provide with pre-gens at the client's request.   

Vyvyan Bastard: The "stigma" of DnD is not quite what it was years ago. I'm also planning to design some adventures that lack much of the reason for the "stigma".


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## catsclaw227 (May 2, 2009)

CC -- I have been trying to ask some relevant questions in a effort to learn more about how and what you are doing and how you plan to execute on your goal.  But, like before, it appears as though you are ignoring some incredibly rational arguments as to why you need to rethink some of this.



Captain_Commando said:


> 1. First of all, job openings that require my skill set that are also in my borough don't pop up every single day. In addition, there are others competing for the same jobs. I'm also not looking to get a full-time position so my options are further limited. I had one bad interview because they were looking for someone to make a longer commitment than I was willing to. My resumé was also quite terrible until recently I started receiving help fixing it. There's a lot of dead time between applications and interviews. The business I'm starting is a side income in case things remain dry on the job front. There are plans to grow the business to make a lot more than $900 monthly.



OK, this is fair, so a better question is.... What is your skill set?  Have you considered, instead of working towards a goal of earning $900/month with a skill set that can't land you a job, that you should instead develop another skill set?

I'll bet that if you took a couple of vocational courses, offered by the state or otherwise, you will develop a skill set that can land you a job much sooner.

If your skill set can't get you employed, *you need another skill set*.

Why strive for $900/month?  Are you expecting your brother and mother to support you indefinitely?



Captain_Commando said:


> 2. Entertainment is entertainment. My primary targets for marketing are people who can afford spending $21-25 per person on a night of entertainment. Geez, a corn beef sandwich can go for that much in a Manhattan eatery. The Broadway ticket price is just one example of many to illustrate how pricey things can get in the city yet people continue to spend on those things.



I am sorry, this just isn't true.  Many people are telling you that this is not true, yet you insist on assuming that because people are willing to buy a cornbeef sandwich, they will pay you to game.  There is a complete disconnect between these two assumptions and I hope, for the sake of your family, that you aren't really assuming that people will pay you this much to play D&D just because they go to Broadway shows. Can you provide some evidence to support your theory?  



Captain_Commando said:


> 3. On the gaming front, I'm building up my skills and reputation through the local gaming community. Anyone can go to the meetup.com site to see that I'm being active in practicing and improving my craft. On the storytelling front, I have been a volunteer children's Sunday School teacher/children's play director. That service will be ready next week. I'm still tweaking the site (it's only the first week the site has been up after all).



OK, being paid to game with minors might REQUIRE that you have a particular set of licenses or be bonded.  What happens if a young teen claims you touched him funny after a game?  What happens if a minor comes to your game, pays, and then somehow hurts himself?  Will you have liability insurance?  Will you have a licensed professional there in case something happens?  Do you even know how important it is to have the proper credentials when getting paid to privately entertain or teach minors?

Regarding team building... What are your skill sets and expertise in team building?  Do you have certificates or a degree in Human Resources?  Do you even have any human resource related college education?

Why would a company hire you for teambuilding exercises (especially when they see your professional photo on the website), when there are companies that do this with MBAs and trainers certified by ASTD or the Society for Human Resource Management?

Can you compete with: TeamBuilders WorldWide or with http://www.teambuildinginc.com ?



Captain_Commando said:


> 4. Yeesh, I just started the site up. The full service menu won't be ready until next week. Ask me again the week after that.



He asked a valid question.  How much feedback have you gotten on the quality of your team building or your storytelling skills?  Do you have testimonials that you can put up or share with people?

Have you received any offers from the business cards you handed out?  Did you socialize with some of the other at the networking meeting?  Did you wear a suit and tie, or at least a business-appropriate dress?  How did the other corporate professionals react to your ideas? 



Captain_Commando said:


> 5. Exactly how much personal information do you expect me to share here?



OK, so I guess EnWorld readers aren't your target market?  He is asking what your marketable skills are, and what references you have?  If I am going to pay you, I want to know.  If EnWorld readers aren't your target market and you aren't willing to share this with us, then you are biting the hand that (potentially) feeds you. 



Captain_Commando said:


> 6. Have you SEEN the differences between this plan and the one before it? I've taken A LOT of the arguments (the ones that were valid anyway) into consideration as I've developed this current venture.



Granted the differences are great.  But that doesn't make it a marketable idea.  With what you have shown me, I wouldn't pay you, and I make very good money.



Captain_Commando said:


> 7. The reasons for the costs are not as important as the fact that people in NYC pay them anyway plus even more like snacks, t-shirts, etc. I don't know about where YOU live but life in THIS CITY can be a lot more expensive than other places.



And therefore, because life is expensive in the city, you find your prices justifiable?  You should have done market research, like polling gamers or companies or these "wealthy socialites" you talk about.  Do you know any wealthy socialites?  And did they tell you it was a great idea to market to them?



Captain_Commando said:


> 8. The team-building benefits of playing a team-oriented game where you have to work together to overcome obstacles and solve problems together are kind of obvious. I'll be posting some more on the business site to elaborate further (again I emphasize that this is only the first week that  the site has been up). A lot of team-building exercises don't tend to be very complicated in their structure (word games, board games, building a car together, etc.). Build trust. Build cooperation. Build communication. It's pretty straightforward.



This is patently false.

I am guessing that you have never worked for a small, mid-sized or large corporation.  Nor have you ever taken a team building course.  Did you know that, in order to even get in the door, you need to provide a portfolio of past team building successes, documented processes that describe how you will proved measurable results, and a follow-up of each team-building exercise with metrics that support your results?

Have you ever done a training class?  I was a corporate trainer for 7 years prior to getting into large scale application development.  I had certifications with the American Society for Training & Development, I ran Train the Trainer programs and even traveled around to companies like Saturn and Ford doing soft-skill management training.

If you pitched ANY of the managers or HR professionals I have met over the years with a team building exercise around playing a war game or D&D with some guys around a table, they would politely end the interview and wish you luck with a fake smile on their face.

Seriously, you need to rethink the whole corporate team-building thing.  YOU DON'T HAVE THE CREDENTIALS.

I mean this a fellow gamer to another, and as a genuinely concerned person...  I beg you, for the sake of your mother and brother, to go get a more marketable skill set and find a real job.  Earn money GMing D&D games on the side, but until you land a real job and make some money to help around the house, you really should let this go.  At least the corporate team building and child/teen storytelling stuff.


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## Joshua Randall (May 2, 2009)

God, I love this thread.


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## Captain_Commando (May 2, 2009)

catsclaw227 said:


> 1. OK, this is fair, so a better question is.... What is your skill set?  Have you considered, instead of working towards a goal of earning $900/month with a skill set that can't land you a job, that you should instead develop another skill set?
> 
> If your skill set can't get you employed, *you need another skill set*.
> 
> ...




1. Time. I'm making this business as a backup measure because I'm running shorter each day on the time left before things get bad again like before my brother stepped in and helped us out.

2. $900 is the MINIMUM I'm striving for, not the maximum. Not necessarily with the business but the total income from the business plus whatever job I can find. I also need to have at least a couple of days free each week to finish my novel.

3. Storytelling for an audience of kids, not gaming with a group of them. Parents will be there too.

4. Small companies that can't afford big company prices for team-building exercises are what I'm aiming the team-building pitch at. DnD has been used for team-building exercises before.

5. Testimonials will be coming soon enough. It's part of the setting up I'm doing this first month.

6. I've received some e-mails offering to work with me or help me with advice. These include a video film/editing guy, a former game company intern and a business startup counselor.  This is just the start. I've got plans to improve/expand the business depending on the contacts I make. And of course I dressed up. It was a business networking party. 

7. This is a brainstorming thread for my business, not a job interview. If you want to know my total set of marketable skills and references as pertaining to the business, then see the updates I'm making on the site (including the About Us section) by the end of the week.

8. I stated before many, many times that this is on the side. I'd be back in college right now but I missed the deadline for applications. I'd be in culinary school right now but there was a co-signer requirement that couldn't be fulfilled. My talents are geared towards the arts (although I was a science major with advanced credit when I was in college) so I've got to pursue a career that lets me use that. The student loans would have helped a lot.


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## catsclaw227 (May 2, 2009)

Captain_Commando said:


> 4. Small companies that can't afford big company prices for team-building exercises are what I'm aiming the team-building pitch at. DnD has been used for team-building exercises before.



I don't recall at any time in my years in Human Resources when D&D was used for team building, but hey, I've been wrong before.

Just an FYI -- just because the are small companies, doesn't mean that they won't require someone with professional credentials.  They might not hire a full service firm dedicated to employee development, but they will still require that a consultant have an advanced education. At least a bachelor's degree if not an MBA, in addition to certification from ASTD or similar associations.



Captain_Commando said:


> 8. I stated before many, many times that this is on the side. I'd be back in college right now but I missed the deadline for applications. I'd be in culinary school right now but there was a co-signer requirement that couldn't be fulfilled. My talents are geared towards the arts (although I was a science major with advanced credit when I was in college) so I've got to pursue a career that lets me use that. The student loans would have helped a lot.



I saw that you said this.  But that isn't what I am saying.... I am saying that in between our interviews and applications, with this downtime you are talking about, you should be studying for a trade that will eventually net you some real, sustainable income.  You like arts, but you have a science major?  Learn how to design websites, do graphic design or other things and then go to 99designs.com and bid on some of the website or logo design.  You can get $200-$300 a pop for a logo design and upwards to $700 or $1000 for a simple set of web pages or a site design in photoshop.

Or you can apply for grants to take online courses.  It is downtime, like you said, but you should be putting it towards developing skills that are easily marketable.

You are talking about starting a D&D GMing business, but there is like a 90% response rate that states that they wouldn't pay you, or that it isn't really a viable business.  _And these people are your target market._

Here's some constructive advice, and not just an attempt to help you see the light:

1. Change your photo on your website.  Cut your hair or do something with it, put on a suit and tie or other business attire and have a photographer friend snap a good business photo.

2.  Try calling yourself John Tek instead of Johnny Tek (unless your actual full name is Johnny).  It positions you better as a professional.  I read your blog about why you changed your name.  If you are an actor or a writer, then Johnny Tek might be cool, but not as a business consultant.


Good luck at your Meetup tomorrow.  I look forward to finding out how your adventure ran, and if you made some cash.

Have some of the players post here.  It might give you some credibility.


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## Captain_Commando (May 2, 2009)

An age-old marketing ploy may be what I need...

BIG UPDATE

I've made some price changes that may be reasonable (lowered it for standard and extended original/published adventures, raised it for the second LFR module run on the same day).

I've decided to give a grand opening special for the month of May, conducting all sessions and performances at half price. This should help me get the experience, work history, and recommendations I'll need to make the business successful.

LFR nuts in or visiting NYC now have 1 month where they can very easily afford power leveling their characters.


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## aboyd (May 2, 2009)

Captain_Commando said:


> LFR nuts in or visiting NYC now have 1 month where they can very easily afford power leveling their characters.



Um, has it traditionally been _difficult_ for LFR nuts to power level their characters?


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## Captain_Commando (May 2, 2009)

aboyd said:


> Um, has it traditionally been _difficult_ for LFR nuts to power level their characters?




I wasn't implying that it's difficult. I'm just saying that it will be very easy as opposed to easy to legitimately power level with my hired service, made more affordable for this month.


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## Captain_Commando (May 2, 2009)

catsclaw227 said:


> You are talking about starting a D&D GMing business, but there is like a 90% response rate that states that they wouldn't pay you, or that it isn't really a viable business.  _And these people are your target market._
> 
> Here's some constructive advice, and not just an attempt to help you see the light:
> 
> ...




Most of the posters really aren't my target market, for the gaming part of the business at least. Most of them already have regular games that fit their schedule that they're content with or don't live in NYC or don't have the kind of disposable income required for hiring my services.

1. Yeah, yeah. I know that already. I'm seeing if I can get a new photo taken by a friend or relative. 

2. Johnny Tek is my actual full name. The business is ultimately an entertainment service provider. The name is good for that.

I do the meetups for free.

I have stated that I'm starting to collect testimonials with the next session.


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## f33b (May 2, 2009)

@OP: please also consider having your new picture taken against a "flat" background that does not contain visible media, such as the bookshelf present in your current picture. There are several good examples on the meetup.com pages you have joined. 

@no one in particular. This just one post in a truly epic tale. It is interesting to note that the responses Mr. Tek received from this community were much more reasoned and polite than those offered in at least part of a similar thread started over at rpgnet, but not nearly as polite as the responses on the Penny Arcade forums, I didn't dig deeply enough into the OOTS forums to determine how that thread panned out. I concede that responses in this thread may have be influenced by those other threads.


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## Noumenon (May 2, 2009)

I think Commando almost has to do this now just to see for himself whether he can do it.  If you don't put your heart into making something quixotic work when you're young, when are you gonna do it?  You guys could have talked Steve Jobs into applying at McDonald's.

Was there a link posted to the web site with picture?  I realize it's only going to be drowned in mockery but I did want to see for myself.  You could PM me with the URL.

Edit: and as long as I'm asking for links I'd like to see the reaction from the polite Penny Arcade people.


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## aboyd (May 2, 2009)

catsclaw227 said:


> I don't recall at any time in my years in Human Resources when D&D was used for team building, but hey, I've been wrong before.



Actually, that part is true.  There is a guy here on En World who has posted a lot of stuff about how he stumbled upon being a professional GM, and how he was hired by a company to host D&D games as "team building exercises."

He has a blog about it; it was pretty funny.  I was mostly amused by how he put together his game with a Palm Pilot because he thought it would impress them, but when he arrived at the house it was a mansion and he realized they wouldn't even think a Palm Pilot was novel at all.

I'm afraid that unique situation has probably been the impetus for a lot of what we see here.



Captain_Commando said:


> aboyd said:
> 
> 
> > Um, has it traditionally been _difficult_ for LFR nuts to power level their characters?
> ...



Whoosh.  

OK, CC, I'm just going to say this flat-out.

I know it's not difficult for the LFR guys to power level, and I know you weren't implying it.  That wasn't my point.  I wasn't _actually_ asking the question I asked.  I was trying, too subtly I guess, to hint that these guys are currently power leveling _for free_ and I was further implying that therefore _there is no market_.

So when you pop up and say "now you can power level for cheap!"  I suspect all the LFR guys shrug and say, "I'll stick with power leveling for free!"  When you say, "My service makes it very easy" I suspect all the LFR guys will say, "No, actually, because you're charging and don't have a home to host us in, your service is _more difficult."_

I mean really, your market is power gamers?  Wouldn't they all have DMs or be DMs themselves?

Sometimes I just want to laugh at all this, but today it just makes me depressed.  

Some LFR power gamers hire this guy over & over again so my cynicism can die a little each time.  Please?


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## Captain_Commando (May 2, 2009)

aboyd said:


> I mean really, your market is power gamers?  Wouldn't they all have DMs or be DMs themselves?




The best customers for the LFR service (as a reminder, there are multiple different services offered, not just LFR) would likely be power levelers with schedules that conflict with the game day(s) on which they could power level or don't want to bother with the organizing process themselves. Also, my service offers greater capacity for power leveling, assuming those gamers want to do it legitimately. Plus, many LFR DMs want to play and level up too.


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## catsclaw227 (May 2, 2009)

Captain_Commando said:


> The best customers for the LFR service (as a reminder, there are multiple different services offered, not just LFR) would likely be power levelers with schedules that conflict with the game day(s) on which they could power level or don't want to bother with the organizing process themselves. Also, my service offers greater capacity for power leveling, assuming those gamers want to do it legitimately. Plus, many LFR DMs want to play and level up too.



If they already are LFR power levelers, isn't it because they already can make the game days on which they could power level?

Listen, I really hope you are successful.

More importantly, though, you should spend at least 1-2 hours on a job hunt or developing other relevant job skills for every 1 hour you spend on this project.


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## Dathalas (May 2, 2009)

Captain,

After reading your responses, it's pretty clear to me that you have no clue who you're marketing to.  You mention businesses and wealthy socialites and LFR power levellers and ... and ... and ...

That's a very dangerous approach to starting a business.  You can't possibly hit all of those markets effectively, so you'll squander whatever resources you have ... and your time is your most valuable resource at this point.

I'm starting my own business right now with very little capital, so I know what I'm talking about.  I know exactly who my target market is and I know exactly how to reach them on a shoestring budget.

Figure that out and focus on them like a laser.   Gear all of your marketing to them.


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## JPL (May 2, 2009)

Step Three is Profit!


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## Bullgrit (May 2, 2009)

I haven't read this whole thread -- only read most of the first page.

Several years ago, when World's Largest Dungeon came out, I considered buying it for someone if they would run it beginning-to-end for me (and others). I dearly wanted to play a long-term dungeon crawl. (Historically, I've mostly been a DM, and rarely played a character.) I would have done this had timing and people worked out for me.

I would, right now, pay $8/hour for a good (at least decent) DM to run a campaign for my group. There are 5 of us in my group, so a 5-hour game session would cost us $8 each. If this poster lived in my area, and would run a D&D3 game, I would gather my friends together and hire him.

Whether we would continue this more than a one shot would depend on how good a DM he is.

So I see this is a valid option for gaming.

Bullgrit


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## Noumenon (May 2, 2009)

That's actually a pretty good idea, Bullgrit!  Who would respond to this ad:



> Experience a new dungeon from one of Magic's great designers!  Professional GM takes you through Monte Cook's new megadungon, Dragon's Delve.
> 
> Interested in the new adventure from the author of _Return to Temple of Elemental Evil_ and _Ptolus_, but don't want to pay the $96 yearly subscription fee?  Want to experience his DungeonaDay project but don't want to drop your current campaign or prep two games at once?  John Tek, professional GM, brings this campaign to your home.  4th Edition.  Custom campaigns also available.




This way you remove uncertainty about the quality of GMing and market "the Monte Cook experience!" instead.  You also lower your prep work greatly -- no design, run the same dungeon for multiple groups.  You establish right off the bat that you're providing a service other people think is worth paying for -- and you get people thinking they're buying a Monte Cook module (something they've done before) -- not buying an unknown GM.

Any other Enworlders that would be as excited to see this ad as I am?  I would jump at the chance to try dungeonaday.com with someone who would keep up with it and run it for me with all the suggested minis.  And I think I could sell my group on it much easier than "random paid DM" because they've played RttToEE and 3.5 before.  

You would be free riding off Monte Cook's name and reputation and probably ought to pay him for it, but at the scale your business is operating I think he should just be thankful for the exposure and extra subscription.


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## Captain_Commando (May 3, 2009)

The Monte Cook thing sounds interesting. I might try that when I can afford it. To save time for now, there are a number of published 4e adventures I intend to adapt or enhance to add to my services. For example, I'm going to be adapting/enhancing Keep on the Shadowfell for a 8-10 hour one-shot.

I just set up a time table for adding services to the business. There's going to be at least 4 days between designing original adventures.

I'll be demoing Delver's Requiem at a Dave Arneson memorial game day next Saturday. I'm going to add a little something to the story to honor him. 

Today I rushed through "Heathen" from Dungeon magazine in less than 5 hours at the meetup. I was originally planning to demo Delver's Requiem but I felt it needed more work. I read it on the train to the meetup and had to read it really fast as I ran the game with 7 players at the table. Also, I hadn't slept for over 24 hours and I was very hungry (thank God someone brought cookies). The players seemed to enjoy the session though. Lots of laughs and I helped some beginners learn the game better. My brain hurts.


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## Dathalas (May 3, 2009)

Hey, Johnny ...

I want to give you a couple more things to consider.

The purpose of marketing is getting the right people (your target market) to know, like, and trust you enough that they will exchange something they value (money) for something they want more (your product ... and yes, services are a product).

I hope you can see every single thing you do (from posting on this forum to introducing yourself to a new person) is a marketing activity.  You have to keep this in mind every time you interact with someone (and if you have a negative opinion about something or someone, keep it to yourself).

After playing around with the numbers a little, you have a much better chance of reaching your income goal by hosting Game Days and publishing adventures.

Let's take a look at the Game Days first.

You mention you'd like to make a minimum of $900 per month. 

If you can run a Game Day each week and charge $10 per person to play in 2 games per Game Day, you would need 23 people at each Game Day to reach your goal.  That would require 4 DMs each week if you run tables of 6 players, or 5 DMs each week if you run tables of 5 players.

I don't spend a lot on entertainment and I'm very frugal with my money, but if you were running a fun event like that in my area, I'd attend at least two and probably all four Game Days every month.  It's a great opportunity to meet other people who play a game I really enjoy.  It would also give me a chance to enjoy just playing (I DM most of the time).

A great thing is that you already know how to reach your target market through forums such as enWorld and RPG.Net.  You could also network with bloggers in your area to get the word out.

Another great thing is that you'd have many repeat customers who would attend multiple Game Days every month.  One of the costliest aspects of marketing is acquiring new customers, so selling your product to your existing customers is the real key to making a profit.

Once you've built a relationship with your customer and gained their trust, it's much easier to sell to them again. 

Let's take a look at the lifetime value of a Game Day customer.  There are most likely three different kinds of customers that you'll run into, so let's look at each of them.

Ideal Customer -- Your Ideal Customer is a player who enjoys playing 4e D&D enough that they'll play every single Game Day.  Most likely, they'll have a regular home group and still want to play in another game each week.

Your Ideal Customer will spend $10 each week for 46 weeks a year (assuming a 90% attendance rate since no one is perfect and will miss a few times a year due to illness and other committments).  They really enjoy the game and are unlikely to quit playing, so they'll probably stick with you for at least 3 years if you're still running Game Days.  So that gives us a Lifetime Value of $1380 for your Ideal Customer ($10 per week X 46 weeks per year X 3 years). 

You now know you could spend as much as $1000 to acquire this customer and still make a profit from them by the end of the third year.  If you get creative, you won't have to spend very much to reach them with your marketing, which will put a lot of profit in your pocket.

These are the customers you need to learn the most about and focus all of your marketing on.  This is the customer all of your marketing needs to speak direcly to.  Get inside their head and learn everything you can about them.  When you discover one of these guys, offer to take them out to lunch just to pick their brain.


Average Customer -- Your Average Customer is a player who enjoys playing 4e D&D, but they will only attend a couple of Game Days a month.

Your Average Customer will spend $10 each week for 24 weeks a year (assuming a 50% attendance rate).  They enjoy the game enough to play on a regular basis, so they'll probably stick with you for at least 1 1/2 years if you're still running Game Days.  So that gives us a Lifetime Value of $360 for your Average Customer ($10 per week X 24 weeks per year X 1.5  years). 


Casual Customer -- Your Casual Customer will only attend a Game Day once a month.  There could be a lot of reasons for this:  they may be so busy they can't make it on a regular basis, they may only have a small amount of disposable income, they may only want to play 4e D&D every now and then, or they may only play to see what the larger 4e D&D community is like in the area. 

Your Casual Customer will spend $10 each week for 12 weeks a year (assuming they attend one Game Day a month).  They'll probably stay with you for a year, so that gives us a Lifetime Value of $120 for your Casual Customer ($10 per week X 12 weeks per year X 1 year). 


Drifters -- Drifters are the people who will only attend one Game Day and never come back.  No matter how good your product, you'll have your fair share of these.  Just accept their money and let them go.  These are not your target market, so you shouldn't even worry about them.

A Drifter will spend $10 once and never come back, so that gives us a Lifetime Value of $10 for each Drifter.

Now there is one warning about Drifters.  You might have to do a little digging to figure out if a person is really a Drifter, or if they are part of your target market that's dissatisfied.


Take a hard look at the math, Johnny.  Now can you see why it's so important to have a clearly defined target market that you can actually reach with your marketing message?  An Ideal Customer has a much higher Lifetime Value than any of the other kinds of customers.  The more Ideal Customers you can reach and build a relationship with, the more successful you'll be.



If I were running a Game Day like this, I would collect each person's email address when they paid (you have to pay them for this extremely valuable piece of information so offer them a free gift) and email each person after the Game Day for their feedback. 

Ask them to rate their experience, to rate their enjoyment of the adventure, to tell you one thing they really enjoyed, to tell you one thing they disliked, and then ask them what they think you could do to make additional Game Days more enjoyable for them.  Ask them how many times a week they play 4e D&D.  Ask them if they play with a regular home group.  Ask them how often they play in public events.  Ask them if they buy their 4e D&D products online or at a local game shop (and which one).  Ask them what 4e D&D websites they visit and how often.

But don't ask them for their name.  You've already got that information from the Game Day event and it's tied to their email address in your database.  And asking for someone's name can trigger a defensive response.  (And yes, all of this info should be going into your database.  You don't have to get fancy, but you've got to find some way to organize this info if you're going to use it.  A freeware spreadsheet will work fine for small numbers of customers.)

Near the end of the survey, give them their gift ... a link to a coupon that can be used at any future Game Days they attend.  The coupon gives them a +2 bonus to any one attack roll.  After they use it, they hand the coupon to the DM.

This gives them a nice little boost once per adventure, but the real secret is that it encourages them to keep updating their info with you after every Game Day.  You can even get fancy and code each coupon with a unique code that lets you know who used the coupon and which survey they used the coupon from (just use the link to send them to a webpage that asks for their email address and generate the coupon dynamically by having the digits before a hyphen indicate the customer and the digits after a hyphen indicate the Game Day that survey is for).

End the survey with a reminder of when the next Game Day is and ask them if they want to reserve a seat now since they're going to fill up quickly.  You don't have to charge them anything, but people are more likely to attend if they reserve a seat.  You'll have a few people who reserve a seat that won't show, but it will be a fairly small number (it's a psychological thing).

Reward the people who reserve a seat by letting them take the first available seats at the Game Day they reserved a seat for.  Fill the rest of the seats on a first come, first served basis.  If you have too many people and can't find them a seat, apologize and offer to reserve a seat for them at the Game Day next week. 

If you really want to be successful, go above and beyond and really wow your customers.  Work out deals with local game shops for a discount card for people who attend your Game Days.  Or offer to hand out flyers for the game shop in exchange for a $10 off coupon that's randomly given out to one of the players at each table.  That works out to roughly $1 per person to advertise to your players if you have a full Game Day.  (Show them your info on how many people attend each Game Day then have them divide the wholesale cost of that store credit by the number of people who attend on average to show them the value of the advertising.)


Ok, so let's take a look at selling the adventures you create for your Game Days as PDFs.  

Rather than creating artwork most people won't care about, spend your time creating attractive battle maps for your encounters.  I use GIMP (a freeware image editing program) and free textures/objects to create really great looking battle maps for the adventures I run at a friend's game shop each week.  If you go this route, check the licensing agreement for each texture or object to make sure you can use it in a commercial product without any problems.

I don't have any hard data on the sales of 4e D&D adventures in PDFs from unknown authors, so I'm going to be extremely conservative.  I'd rather be pleasantly surprised than disappointed.

So let's assume you publish the same 2 adventures you run at the Game Day each week and you sell 1 copy a month of each adventure for the next year.  The adventures from the previous month become part of your back catalog.

Our first years gross profits look like this:
Month 1 = $24
Month 2 = $48
Month 3 = $72
Month 4 = $96
Month 5 = $120
Month 6 = $144
Month 7 = $168
Month 8 = $192
Month 9 = $216
Month 10 = $240
Month 11 = $264
Month 12 = $288
Total Gross Profits for the first year = $1872

$1872 isn't bad for just a little more effort than you're already putting out designing the adventures.  If you continue this process for several years, you'll start multiplying that income.

I seriously doubt you could publish that many adventures your first year, but just trying will be great practice for your writing career and you're very likely to sell more than 1 copy of each adventure a month.  You can probably sell three or four times that just from mentioning the adventure during your weekly survey for the Game Days.  And you can quickly multiply those sales through effective marketing.

The best part is that these products will continually produce income for you if they're good.  If they're bad, they won't make you a penny.  You'll be able to tell how good they are by the reviews you find on the web and the number of customers who demand refunds. 

A great marketing tactic would be to provide a couple of adventures as free downloads so people could check out your work and see if they like it.  If they like your style, they'll probably pick up a few more adventures from you.

You should also give out free review copies to encourage people to review your adventures on popular websites and blogs.  Ask them to notify you when they publish a review and go check it out.  Thank them for their review no matter how negative it may seem ... they're actually helping you by showing you what needs work.  And if they write a good review, link to it from your sales page for that adventure.

If you really want to get creative, give a free copy away to popular blog authors and ask them to do a joint venture with you if they like your adventure enough to recommend it to their readers.  Create a special sales page for this joint venture so you know exactly how much you made from it and split the profits 50/50 with the blog author.  It's a good deal for you because you get access to customers you probably wouldn't have reached otherwise and you get to borrow the trust the blog author has built with his readership.  

I buy most products based on reviews and personal recommendations from people I trust.


Can you see how you can reach your income goals by just pursuing these two focused activities (running Game Days and publishing the adventures from them)?  Can you see the synergy between them and how you're getting paid for the same work more than once?

The great part is that these markets already exist and there are a lot of channels you can use to reach them with your marketing message.  Why would you try to sell a roleplaying experience to small businesses and wealthy socialites when you can sell it so much easier to people who already want a roleplaying experience?  You're using the same skill set, you're just packaging it as a different product.

The reality is people don't value someone else's time as much as they value a product.  So sell them a product they already value (a Game Day, an adventure) and you'll get paid more than you would for your time.  Even high dollar service providers use this tactic.  It's a perception thing.


Johnny, stop running around like a chicken with his head cut off, wasting your limited resources (time, money, energy), trying to create demand for your services in markets that will very likely never develop and just go where the money and market already is.  A small piece of a large pie is worth so much more than a whole pie that you don't even have the recipe for.

If you want to succeed (and I believe you do), then you need to put yourself in the best position for that to happen.  

In the end, it comes down to this:  Do you want to hold onto your "cool idea" or do you want to make money?

Really think this through, Johnny.  Right now, you're just distracting yourself with a bunch of activity and ignoring the things many of us see very clearly.  Good luck and let me know if there's anything you want to discuss.


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## Janx (May 3, 2009)

let me comment on the whole "corporate team-building" thing.

From the pro-GM story, that guy lucked out that a team in a company wasa  bunch of gamers, and the manager was willing to shell out budget for it.

I work in a big company.  Per the latest speech by our CEO last week, we're a top Fortune X company, where X is a number I won't disclose because you really don't need to know where I work.  We're big.  One of the biggest.  When the company says "we change our policy to match the industry" what they really mean is "we found a new way to trim employee expense, and in a month, the rest of the industry will copy us."

We have a few different types of team building.  Every few years, my department will pay for the whole 100+ member group to go to some communication or team building course.  And very quarter, every department gets $20 a person to spend on a "group activity".  Some times we do it as an entire department, sometimes we break it up by teams.

These are usually "go to the adult arcade", or "ride the go-karts" or "go see a movie" or "go eat at a steakhouse then go home early" activities.  Hypothetically, it's these activities where an entertainment business lke lasertag can get that money, without extra credentials (other than insurance they carry as a business).

Guess what got cut this year?  Quarterly outings.  At best, our manager has a "happy hour" at a nearby pub after work where HE pays for a few drinks for each of his 10 employees.

Did I mention we're a top company.  If we're cutting back, EVERYBODY else is.  And we're still making butt-loads of money.  But we'e also tightening the belt.

If you want to start a business, the best ideas are ones where you hear a lot of people saying, "man, if somebody did X, I'd pay for it!"

When times are tough, the smart thing to do for a young person is stay in school.  Get a student loan.  Go to a CHEAP school (I went to a cheap small school, and got my picked up by said top Fortune company).  Don't argue about getting a loan, because the first thing you'll do as a college grad is get a car load for a WORSE interest rate than your student loans.  Student loans are a great way to jump start yourself into the economy.


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## Hereticus (May 3, 2009)

At least "Johnny Tek" is locatable through a search.

Johnny Tek - The NYC Dungeons & Dragons Meetup Group (New York, NY) - Meetup.com

Johnny Tek - National Association of Asian American Professionals (New York, NY) - Meetup.com


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## timbannock (May 4, 2009)

Bullgrit said:


> I haven't read this whole thread -- only read most of the first page.
> 
> Several years ago, when World's Largest Dungeon came out, I considered buying it for someone if they would run it beginning-to-end for me (and others). I dearly wanted to play a long-term dungeon crawl. (Historically, I've mostly been a DM, and rarely played a character.) I would have done this had timing and people worked out for me.
> 
> ...






So everyone in your group agrees that they'd each pay $8 for a game session?

I need to join your group, because I can't get my players to pay the correct amount for the pizza!


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## timbannock (May 4, 2009)

Also, just checked the revised site.

I see team-building has gone (probably a GREAT idea!) and the pricing is...

Hey, Bullgrit, how does your group feel about doubling that price?  $16 each for a 5-hour session of WLD sound good to your players?


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## Bullgrit (May 4, 2009)

neuronphaser said:
			
		

> So everyone in your group agrees that they'd each pay $8 for a game session?
> 
> I need to join your group, because I can't get my players to pay the correct amount for the pizza!





			
				neuronphaser said:
			
		

> Hey, Bullgrit, how does your group feel about doubling that price? $16 each for a 5-hour session of WLD sound good to your players?



Hmm. You call me out _twice_ about my willingness to pay someone to DM a game session for my game group. Makes me think you have some issue with my acceptance of such a situation. What’s your problem with it?

I just paid $10 to see a 2-hour movie that left me “meh” -- I was minimally entertained. I consider that a waste of $10. My gamer friends also paid and saw the show (though I don’t know their opinion of it yet). I don’t see a problem with ponying up 8 bucks for 5 hours of fun with my friends (in which we hold half the potential for fun and entertainment). 

Hell, I’ll waste more than $8 on a lunch outing today, even though I could just make myself a PB&J sandwich and eat it at my desk.

Bullgrit


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## ProfessorPain (May 4, 2009)

To the OP:

First, I am sorry for your personal loss. 

Second, this may or may not be a viable idea. I tend to think it will be a difficult sell, but someone figured out how to sell bottled water, so anything is possible. My advice, go to your local Chamber of Commerce. Most cities have some kind of retired executive board, LIke SCORE, that can help you with your business plan. Ask for a Business Counseling Session, and try to make at least one appointment a month as you go forward. Where I live, these sessions are free and they try ot find the weaknessess and strengths in your idea.


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## Piratecat (May 4, 2009)

Relax please, guys.


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## timbannock (May 4, 2009)

Bullgrit said:


> Hmm. You call me out _twice_ about my willingness to pay someone to DM a game session for my game group. Makes me think you have some issue with my acceptance of such a situation. What’s your problem with it?




Sorry, I definitely came off wrong.  I wasn't trying to call you out...I'm really interested to see if there is any kind of market for what CC is proposing.

Apparently there is.

Please don't take offense...I'll reflect more and post less.  If there's any issue with my post, feel free to PM me.  I really do apologize.


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## ProfessorPain (May 4, 2009)

I don't know if this has been brought up yet, but something people are always looking for are playtesters. Most designers are limited by where they live, and the schedules of the gamers in their area. They also want feed back from folks outside their regular gaming group. Have you considered expanding the concept to include a playtest for hire. The only hitch here is you would be bringing your players or other gamers into the business to a degree, and I don't know what kind of payment arrangement (if any) they would expect. You could do something like agree to playtest a game over three sessions, for a set price, and then provide the client with a written report critiquing the the system, setting, etc. I don't know how many systems you are familiar with now, but knowing a bunch of different systems pretty well (and having a strong sense of what each achieves) would be important if you went this direction. Sorry to ramble on, but this is definitely an area I think you should consider.


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## Captain_Commando (May 4, 2009)

I'm getting a business counceling session tomorrow morning. I hope I can get some good advice.

TODAY'S UPDATE

I'm going to try and create business relationships with other companies and businesses to make this work.

I'm going to be offering promotion and advertisement to game companies in exchange for incentives such as product samples or discount coupons that I can put together as a "gift basket" for clientele.

I'm still waiting for the battlegraphs from Longtooth Studios to arrive but I'll start promoting their product today on the site.

Mongoose Publishing has expressed interest as well.

Local businesses such as chocolate/candy stores/companies and restaurants might bite at this as well.

This could increase the value of my services beyond quality of service and convenience of scheduling.

Following some advice, I've fixed my blog on the site to come off as more professional. I'll try to update my photo tonight.


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## ProfessorPain (May 4, 2009)

I am glad to hear you are moving this forward. Sounds like you are making the right connections. 

Definitely keep at the business counseling sessions. They really helped me. They will directly challenge many of your assumptions, but the key is to discover what you don't know through their questioning and then go find the answer. 

Good Luck!


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## Bullgrit (May 4, 2009)

neuronphaser said:
			
		

> Sorry, I definitely came off wrong. I wasn't trying to call you out...I'm really interested to see if there is any kind of market for what CC is proposing.
> 
> Apparently there is.
> 
> Please don't take offense...I'll reflect more and post less. If there's any issue with my post, feel free to PM me. I really do apologize.



OK. All’s cool.

As for there being a market: I’d be surprised if a person couldn’t find a way to make this work. I’m not saying someone could necessarily make a good main income living at DMing, but I can definitely see a sideline income, at least, from something like this.

After all, people make money as clowns or magicians at birthday parties. People make money judging or refereeing sports events. People make money mowing lawns, waiting on tables, and standing around wearing clothes (just saw a “live mannequin” this weekend at my local mall).

I think setting up and running a fun RPG session is work worthy of payment.

Bullgrit


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## Captain_Commando (May 6, 2009)

Bullgrit said:


> After all, people make money as clowns or magicians at birthday parties. People make money judging or refereeing sports events. People make money mowing lawns, waiting on tables, and standing around wearing clothes (just saw a “live mannequin” this weekend at my local mall).




It's become easier to explain what I do to people by comparing it to clowns or magicians thank you very much. 

TODAY'S UPDATE

I've shortened standard game sessions to 2 1/2 - 3 hour lengths since I've been told that most potential clients probably can't fit the 4-5 hour length into their schedules. Right now all prices are halved because of the grand opening special ($7, $8.40, or $10.50 a player for a regular session with a normal number of 4 to 6 players). By the time they go back to normal, I may have some really good incentive for continued business. Depending on what sort of business I get this month, maybe I'll reduce the price further.

I've figured out that local businesses are most likely the way to go to creating client benefit packages. Food purveyors in particular. I may be able to get $5 coupons from one gourmet deli in the city and $1 coupons at another. People have to eat so they spend on food anyway. There are other basic necessities or luxuries I can try for as well (chocolate, bath products, barbers/hair salons, etc.). This sort of business partnering could cut the effective cost of my services for most of my potential clients. This may be the key to success.

Video game development teams might be a prime target for my services, probably not for team-building but perhaps for a break away from their computer screens into any place in the cosmos they can imagine. Plus they might see my services as a potential source of inspiration or a good way to brainstorm for their projects.

Delver's Requiem is available for request. I'll be demoing it at the Dave Arneson Memorial at the Compleat Strategist game store. Since It's going to be shorter than 4-5 hours, I'm thinking of a second game I could run at the same table afterwards. A short game that gives a nod to the original Blackmoor.


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## Vyvyan Basterd (May 8, 2009)

neuronphaser said:


> So everyone in your group agrees that they'd each pay $8 for a game session?






neuronphaser said:


> Also, just checked the revised site. and the pricing is...Hey, Bullgrit, how does your group feel about doubling that price?  $16 each for a 5-hour session of WLD sound good to your players?




Now that apologies and acceptance of said apologies were made... 

I think these are still valid questions to help CC gauge his market.

DMs who would like to play are definitely a valid market. But CC's plan involves groups hiring him. Would the rest of your group be willing to go from paying you nothing to paying for another DM to run? (I know where you're coming from here. I could probably convince someone in my group to run an extended one-shot, but not a full campaign. Apparently that's my job :/ )

Also, you mentioned a price point value of $8, would you be willing to double that and still consider this to have value? (I mean I like 89 cent tacos at Taco Bell, but I don't think I'd consider them worth the price if they upped the price to $1.78 a taco.)


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## Bullgrit (May 8, 2009)

I'd pay $8/hour, and I believe my group would agree (again, compare to movie prices). $16 is too much, unless the gaming experience is excellent, beyond what we could normally get playing among ourselves.

Bullgrit


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## Piratecat (May 9, 2009)

The new photo on your site isn't really welcoming. Instead of a head shot, see if you can have someone snap some photos of you while you're GMing. That'd be kind of cool, and will help sell yourself.

One of the reasons I don't think your concept will fly is that it's a tiny market of potential customers who are hard to reach and difficult to sell; you have to create demand instead of having them flock to you, and that's usually the kiss of death. If you're serious about making money through D&D, I'd suggest that instead you write articles for magazines (Kobold Quarterly is a great one) and write many short-short pdfs that you sell for a low cost. Phil Reed did this in 3e incredibly successfully. He ended up with hundreds of pdfs for sale, most just 2-4 pagers that were highly focused, and the aggregate income from his catalog turned out to be a pretty nifty way to earn some cash through his work.

In my opinion, doing that is a far more lucrative use of your time and energy.


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## Pbartender (May 9, 2009)

Piratecat said:


> One of the reasons I don't think your concept will fly is that it's a tiny market of potential customers who are hard to reach and difficult to sell; you have to create demand instead of having them flock to you, and that's usually the kiss of death.




This got me thinking...  There's another way to market this.

Instead of focusing on gamers as your core customer base (or pehaps in addition to gamers as your core customer base), consider targetting non-gamers.

These are the people who may have heard about D&D and RPGs, and are curious to see what it's actually all about.  Offer to a run a short session, with pre-generated characters--not unlike a convention demo game.  Keep the adventures straight-forward, and the characters stereotypical.  Use simpler rulesets (OD&D or BD&D, maybe). You can play up the "kitch" of the game a little, but don't go too far overboard.  You'd want to cultivate a certain amount of gamer-geek atmosphere, because that's what you'd be selling... A couple hours of gamer geekdom for people who aren't ordinarily gamer geeks.


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## Captain_Commando (May 10, 2009)

Piratecat said:


> The new photo on your site isn't really welcoming. Instead of a head shot, see if you can have someone snap some photos of you while you're GMing. That'd be kind of cool, and will help sell yourself.
> 
> One of the reasons I don't think your concept will fly is that it's a tiny market of potential customers who are hard to reach and difficult to sell; you have to create demand instead of having them flock to you, and that's usually the kiss of death. If you're serious about making money through D&D, I'd suggest that instead you write articles for magazines (Kobold Quarterly is a great one) and write many short-short pdfs that you sell for a low cost. Phil Reed did this in 3e incredibly successfully. He ended up with hundreds of pdfs for sale, most just 2-4 pagers that were highly focused, and the aggregate income from his catalog turned out to be a pretty nifty way to earn some cash through his work.




Actually at a business networking party I met a professional photographer who's willing to trade services. 

I passed the test from Reality Deviant Productions. I'm being offered a decent rate (2 cents a word) for a new writer. Once I get established from that I'll try the 2-4 page pdfs as well. By mid 2010, my writing should be in much greater demand.

I really am going to be getting new people into the game. I even give a link to WotC's quick start rules.

Since a new thread chronicling my exploits has been denied, I'll just keep posting updates on this one.

DAVE ARNESON MEMORIAL UPDATE

Today three groups ran games at the Compleat Strategist (the fourth was a no show). It was a decent turnout considering there wasn't a lot of advance notice.

I tested out and demonstrated "Delver's Requiem". I gained a lot of new insight into running the kinds of 1-shots that my writing/design style produces.

I had a big scare when halfway to the game store on the train I noticed that I'd left behind a significant portion of my adventuring notes in my rush. Surprisingly, I was able to reconstruct enough from memory to run the session. There's a big difference at the game table when you're not reading narrative from a script.

The players enjoyed the story and loved the combat. I was told that my story was much deeper than usual fare ( a good thing apparently). My encounter design for combat was likened to the "Legend of Zelda". I was a bit nervous but I managed to tell a good story and I even sang as the story's ghost bard for a particular scene. The diddy I made up was well-received. 

I'm feeling more confident about running paid games. I may be able to add new adventures faster than before with the shorter length and the experience I've gained.


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## Olaf the Stout (May 12, 2009)

So it's been a couple of weeks now.  Have you had a paid session yet, or at the very least an inquiry from someone willing to pay to run a session?

Olaf the Stout


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## Captain_Commando (May 12, 2009)

Olaf the Stout said:


> So it's been a couple of weeks now.  Have you had a paid session yet, or at the very least an inquiry from someone willing to pay to run a session?




Not yet. I'm still setting up.

It started out with just the LFR the first week, which doesn't have much demand to begin with. No surprise that there's no chomp there.

There's only two adventures currently available, and I haven't gotten the first client benefit yet. Tomorrow I'm headed over to several businesses before checking out a possible job opening for a karaoker mc (the ad was up last week but I can at least sing for a free drink, heh).

The site needs more work. My writing sample to Reality Deviant Publications was good enough to get a request for a 10 page series of encounters so I'm working on that this week as well. Job hunting obviously comes first.

I don't expect any business until I've fixed up the site some more and gained the first benefit for clients. Also, I may have to approach specific clientele to get started but I'm going to wait until after I've put together a few clinet benefits. 

It's probably going to be another week or two before I get my first client. There will be some significant add-ons by that point.


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## Captain_Commando (May 12, 2009)

Bullgrit said:


> I'd pay $8/hour, and I believe my group would agree (again, compare to movie prices). $16 is too much, unless the gaming experience is excellent, beyond what we could normally get playing among ourselves.
> 
> Bullgrit




It's not per hour. It's a flat fee for the whole session.

Right now it's around the equivalent of $3 per player each hour. 

The client benefit package should add significant value to the services and reduce the effective drain on a client's budget. Most people who might hire me would probably afford the services easily though. It's not like I'm going to approach people with strained budgets.

I am working to make the gaming experience better than normal.  I've been testing out lots of stuff since even before brainstorming for this. Memorization of rules and narrative as well as original artwork visual aids seem to make a profound difference. Deeper storylines and innovative combat design also seem to hit home. Also, the expanding menu of options will be important. The types of adventures I make available may possibly be key in grabbing both gamer and non-gamer clients.


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## Olaf the Stout (May 12, 2009)

Ok, you also mention pieces of art you have drawn up for the sessions.  Care to post any of them up so we can see what sort of pictures you are planning on showing players?

Olaf the Stout


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## Captain_Commando (May 12, 2009)

Olaf the Stout said:


> Ok, you also mention pieces of art you have drawn up for the sessions.  Care to post any of them up so we can see what sort of pictures you are planning on showing players?




Right now one should be able to see a couple of my drawings faintly in the Gaming Materials album on my site's Photos page. I'll need to ink or xerox for better clarity in the photos. I'll post something easier to see later this week.

TODAY'S UPDATE

I've reduced prices one last time. There isn't going to be much profit from running game sessions alone unless multiple sessions on the same day are requested. Publishing the adventures and the professional storytelling, which has more real life support, will contribute most of the profit until the expansion plans are implemented (that's when the real money will come in).

With the May Special making it really cheap to hire for just one session, whatever sessions I run this month will be about establishing regular clientele and gaining recommendations.

If I can nail client discounts for food at restaurants and delis, I will also reduce my own costs for food as well since I also get to use the discounts. I'll be concentrating on client benefits in Manhattan since most of my potential clientele will probably be from or work in that borough and it's pretty much the city center. Bakeries, coffee shops, chocolatiers and candy shops are also on my list, then perhaps the game stores or toy stores.


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## Vyvyan Basterd (May 12, 2009)

Captain_Commando said:


> It's not per hour. It's a flat fee for the whole session.
> 
> Right now it's around the equivalent of $3 per player each hour.




At the time we were polling Bullgrit your flat rates broke out to the equivalent of ~$16/hour per player. It's good to see that they've come down to a much more reasonable rate. At your current rates I would even be willing to give you a try. But you'd still have to provide an AMAZING service to keep me as a recurring customer.


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## Mistwell (May 12, 2009)

I knew someone who went by the name Mikey Dave who made a profession of being a storyteller.

He did parties telling stories.  He wrote a book about storytelling.  He recorded a CD of storytelling.  He was hired by Renaissance Faire to tell stories on stage.  He eventually taught a class at a college on storytelling.

He passed away a few years ago, which was a tremendously sad event for the many people who loved him and his tales.

I think if you expanded into storytelling in general, you can make a career of it.

I'll see if I can dig up more information on my friend's career and his methods of breaking into it and bringing in money through storytelling.


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## aboyd (May 12, 2009)

Captain_Commando said:


> Right now one should be able to see a couple of my drawings faintly in the Gaming Materials album on my site's Photos page.



His drawing is here:

http://storyteller-solutions.webs.com/Gaming Materials/PICT0302-1.jpg

It's hard to see, but I'd say it's competent.  If he had a dozen of these (per game) to illustrate the main NPCs and/or structures (at least to get an idea of tactical advantage or layout), I'd consider it valuable.  I wouldn't consider it _highly_ valuable, because I think the drawings show him to be merely a passable artist.  However, even passable artists are difficult to come by, so it has some small worth.


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## Captain_Commando (May 14, 2009)

I've got to remind myself to ink or xerox my penciled stuff before putting up photos of it.

Ah well.

TODAY'S UPDATE

At the RPGA Meetup just a few hours ago, I got running LFR down to a 3 1/2 hour session. The gameplay felt like it went much smoother than last time, which lasted 4 1/2 hours. I've got a better feel for modules now. I think I may change the services to just the ones I've prepared for game days.

It's official. I've got my first client. The request is for a customized World of Darkness adventure with gritty realism, unspeakable horror and zombies.


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## Jack99 (May 14, 2009)

Captain_Commando said:


> I passed the test from Reality Deviant Productions. I'm being offered a decent rate (2 cents a word) for a new writer. Once I get established from that I'll try the 2-4 page pdfs as well. By mid 2010, my writing should be in much greater demand.




AFAIK, 2 cents a word is about the normal (lowest) you can get in this business, unless you are an established name. But I am no expert.

On a side note, I was shocked by those numbers. A full 4e class runs about 12k words. Thats like $360. I do not know how much time a pro writer spends writing a 4e class, but it would have to be insanely quick.

I am glad I do not have to live off this business 

Good luck


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## PaulofCthulhu (May 14, 2009)

You can make money at running roleplaying sessions, it's becoming more common in business training, but it's usually not to play D&D.

Follow the money - as mentioned, computer games companies could be a good target.

There are also (semi?) professional storytellers who work with young people. If you're good at telling stories that could be an option through schools - interactive storytelling as part of your English classes? (subject to all the usual checks we all go through etc.).

Heck if I were doing it, I'd be offering "Murder Mystery" party evenings - perhaps with a tentacular twist.  - but I don't.

Roleplayers are quite parsimonious and already play the games, reach out to potentially receptive audiences who don't.


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## Captain_Commando (May 15, 2009)

PaulMaclean said:


> Follow the money - as mentioned, computer games companies could be a good target.
> 
> Heck if I were doing it, I'd be offering "Murder Mystery" party evenings - perhaps with a tentacular twist.  - but I don't.
> 
> Roleplayers are quite parsimonious and already play the games, reach out to potentially receptive audiences who don't.




There are lots of possibilities. Trial lawyers might be a good target group as well. Money in hand + lots of stress + a love of role-playing for an audience + penchant for learning rules systems.

I may end up organizing special game events once I'm settled. My first idea is to organize a DnD tournament.

I believe a sizable chunk if not most of my potential clientele will be new to tabletop role-playing. I'll be adjusting to make sure the business is more and more beginner friendly as I'm setting up.


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## PaulofCthulhu (May 15, 2009)

The issue with roleplaying sessions with the like of professionals (in this example, Lawyers) is the kind of roleplay they're usually after is not tabletop roleplay, but playing through imaginary scenarios dealing directly with difficult and often sensitive aspects of case law (as Ive mentioned elsewhere) - those are usually run by legal consultants or members of the Judiciary - i.e. acknowledged experts in their field.

I suspect you may fare better in the schools/English studies sector though. If your focus becomes only _D&D_-style tabletop roleplay I think you'll have a tougher time of it than you possibly could othewise. Up to you.


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## timbannock (May 15, 2009)

You're much more likely to find new roleplayers among teen/college folks, rather than targeting Law Firms.  You keep going after this "money in hand + whatever" crowd, but I really don't think that's where you'll find your market.

If that were the case, I wouldn't be looking for a job out in LA, where everyone's an actor.  I'd be running D&D for Vin Diesel and Steven Colbert, and making mad monies.

That ain't happening, yet, so take from that what you will.

If you make that market successful, though, I'll be the first person to license your business name from you and start the West Coast branch.  I'm saving my pennies as we speak!


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## Captain_Commando (May 17, 2009)

In any case, the business is still in setup mode. Once all the services are ready, things should get interesting. I'll have testimonials and more partner businesses by then.

The battle graphs still haven't come in. Perhaps I should send another e-mail. According to the site, there seemed to have been a problem with some orders.

TODAY'S UPDATE

I'm altering War Games into Epic Encounters. The client/client group will play a party of PCs against monsters of their choice on battlefields of their choice. This is for anyone who wants to spend their session just fighting monsters in interesting environments.

EDIT: Battles without context may be too boring for an entertainment service. I've decided to just focus on creating a menu of adventures and storytelling. No War Games or Epic Encounters service unless someone requests it through customized adventures.


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## Captain_Commando (May 25, 2009)

UPDATE (5/24/09)

I think limiting my updates on the forums to once a week will be best. Sunday is a good day so every Sunday should be fine.

I've got a start on my client incentive package. A popular Manhattan deli not far from Grand Central station is backing me with $5 coupons. On Tuesday I may be able to get $5 coupons from a popular Chinese fast food place near Penn station as well. A chocolatier, several restaurants, a bakery, a coffee shop, and an ice cream/frozen yogurt shop will round out my culinary incentives. Toys, games, and other services like a spa, bowling alley, or skating rink are also planned for the package.

Dungeon Delves and Teaching Games are now available. I'm delaying the performance storytelling service until sometime in June.

I'm going to be putting up a separate site for a default setting for the pre-made adventures that is fully compatible with most DnD material.

I'm planning to make another setting that may interest fans of the MMO genre.

I've devised a "block" format for designing adventures. Each block will have a certain amount of narrative, a skill challenge, a combat encounter, and a story encounter (teaching game is the exception). A block is 1 1/2 hours to 2 hours of play time. Most adventures will be at least 2 blocks long.

By the end of this next week, I am hoping to start the main phase of my advertisement.


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## Noumenon (May 25, 2009)

Just make sure you don't spend so much time marketing that your core product suffers -- you don't want to have to wing it because of forgotten materials or run with no sleep every time!


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## catsclaw227 (May 25, 2009)

CC -- You are spending an awful lot of time changing your services, but you haven't had one paying group (as far as I know).  Maybe you should focus less on your peripheral offerings and go out and DM a few games for some customers.


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## marcobravo (May 25, 2009)

To Captain Commando. I wrote a response to you once in the official forums for D&D and in a pure mule like stubborness, you deicded to keep on going. Listen, I have a very viable suggestion to you that you may have missed which will let you do your writing of adventures and get paid. Look all the way to bottom of this page, you will see a link to "SERVICE Experienced D&D Player, DM, Designer Seeking Freelance Writing and Editing Opportunities" which takes you elsewhere in the forums. If you don't see it, the link is SERVICE Experienced D&D Player, DM, Designer Seeking Freelance Writing and Editing Opportunities - EN World D&D / RPG News - This guy says he will pay "a minimum rate of $0.005 (one-half of one cent) US, per written word, for articles of 2500 words or less, and $0.01 (one cent) US, per written word, for articles of 2501 words or more."

You'll be more sucessful making $5 off of a 5000 word project then trying to sell your service to partners of law firms who will only laugh at you when they go drinking after they get their next divorce settlement.


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## Fifth Element (May 25, 2009)

marcobravo said:


> To Captain Commando. I wrote a response to you once in the official forums for D&D and in a pure mule like stubborness, you deicded to keep on going. Listen, I have a very viable suggestion to you that you may have missed which will let you do your writing of adventures and get paid. Look all the way to bottom of this page, you will see a link to "SERVICE Experienced D&D Player, DM, Designer Seeking Freelance Writing and Editing Opportunities" which takes you elsewhere in the forums. If you don't see it, the link is SERVICE Experienced D&D Player, DM, Designer Seeking Freelance Writing and Editing Opportunities - EN World D&D / RPG News - This guy says he will pay "a minimum rate of $0.005 (one-half of one cent) US, per written word, for articles of 2500 words or less, and $0.01 (one cent) US, per written word, for articles of 2501 words or more."



That's a link to someone looking for writing work at that rate, not offering to pay for work at that rate. You've got it backwards.


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## marcobravo (May 25, 2009)

I stand corrected.


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## Captain_Commando (May 25, 2009)

I actually got a commissioned project for 2 cents a word (using the 5,000 word example that would become $100).

I was told to playtest it as well before submitting it so I'm currently looking to make a playtest group or I might just fit in quick playtests of parts of it just before or after meetup games that I run.

Afterwards, I'll be writing a book supplement for 4e.

I've been taking my time setting up the business because it's on the side while job hunting. I've been waiting to finish the setup before getting serious with the marketing. I may have to start this week since it's getting tighter with each passing day.


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## Captain_Commando (Jun 1, 2009)

WEEKLY UPDATE

I'm going to be overhauling the way I do customized adventures so no new requests will be taken on that until then.

I'm going to be putting up a special menu website for the pregenerated characters (sorry no power cards or power text - that would be a no-no - heehee) and a website for the default setting(s) for the standard adventures and dungeon delves.

War games may be making a come back but not in the way I imagined them before.

I may have stumbled onto a very real demand for a particular type of game day and a way to get players to pay... 

I'll be putting up some goodies for GMs on the site this week.


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## Captain_Commando (Jun 8, 2009)

WEEKLY UPDATE

I tried doing a paid LFR session on Friday. Friday was a bad choice for a paid LFR session, plus I should have given more advance notice. 4 people RSVPed but 1 cancelled at the last minute so the game had to be cancelled. Ah well. I now know that people are willing to pay at least $5 each for an LFR game with enough incentive (I'd given up on even trying this once before when there were less LFR players). I'm planning to try again with more advance notice and a 6 RSVP minimum, maybe in a few weeks. I'll be posting dates when I'm more confident about my schedule.

It was suggested earlier on that I organize special paid game events. The problem was finding the right location and incentives. I may have that problem solved because of Old Bridge gourmet deli. Something really cool in July...

At the monthly meetup, I DMed for a gamer who runs a web hosting service and he's willing to charge me considerably less than other web hosts to make Storyteller Solutions into a .com instead of a .webs.com in exchange for DMing games for him and his friends. This was pretty lucky.

At the very same meetup I ran a level 30 combat encounter. I designed the monsters myself. It was a very enlightening experience as a DM and as a game designer for 4e material.

Due to computer-related technical problems and busier than usual job hunting/application submissions, I haven't been able to do much for the site this past week. By the next weekly update, I hope to get things running again. There is a big add-on I've been working on little by little and it will be something that could boost the value of my services significantly.


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## lejanius (Jun 10, 2009)

I have been reading this thread, and the others, for some time without comment but something finally made me have to speak up. 

so you had a game, with four people, willing to pay you and you canceled?  

not only is that a poor business decision but also reflects poorly on your ability to follow through with clients.

You need to re-think that, at this point you are growing a business (in theory) you should be bending over backwards to make anyone willing to give you money happy


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## Captain_Commando (Jun 15, 2009)

lejanius said:


> I have been reading this thread, and the others, for some time without comment but something finally made me have to speak up.
> 
> so you had a game, with four people, willing to pay you and you canceled?
> 
> ...




First of all, it wasn't a serious business game. It was a test run with people I know from the local meetup group. Technically I didn't cancel. One of the players did so the game was automatically cancelled. It is an official RPGA rule for a sanctioned Living Forgotten Realms game to have a minimum of 4 players. The players were fully aware that this game was just a test to see what needs to be done in organizing pay-for-play LFR on a regular basis.


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## Captain_Commando (Jun 22, 2009)

WEEKLY UPDATE

I've started work on the site for Legends of Matia, the first default setting for Storyteller Solutions adventures. I've decided that how gods and the afterlife are handled will be a bit Bleach-inspired. The text I have up so far still needs editing so for now it's a place holder. The setting is at http://legends-of-matia.webs.com

I've decided to have Storyteller Solutions closed until August while I get a handle on my work hours with the theatre and possibly with a 24-hour deli I recently applied to.


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## Captain_Commando (Jul 15, 2009)

SPECIAL UPDATE

I gave up waiting on the theatre job and am still waiting for return calls for other jobs (sigh).

After many months of rejection, I finally managed to get some work though (huh?!). Yesterday was my first day as a movie extra on the set of Disney's Step Up 3D. I'm in the audience for the final dancing scenes. There's three more days of this gig and it's pretty cool. I'm getting to see some really awesome choreography and dance battling on set. 

On the way home, a mysterious individual known only as "Antenna Man" regaled the subway passengers with a jazz performance on his saxophone. He was "from outer space, not from Mexico..."

I've changed my mind on how to do the pantheon of legends of matia. I'll get to it when I can. I've extended the down time for Storyteller Solutions through to September.

My next update probably won't be for a while but it should be a good one.  There will be at least one update in August and I'll return to doing weekly updates in September. To everyone who's contributed so far, thank you very much for your interest and advice.


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## timbannock (Jul 15, 2009)

You mentioned in at least 2 updates previously that there would be "goodies" for GMs (and possibly players as well).  These haven't come yet.

Any word on the video of your GMing?


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## cappadochian (Apr 21, 2010)

greetings,

i have developed a website, that makes possible to play any kind of pen&paper tabletop roleplaying games online like it was originally meant to be played, like it was possible never before. equipped with a Java VoIP webphone (a web based internet softphone) running right on the page that requires no installation at all, and is completely browser and OS independent (x86), you can play through speaking, almost like you were sitting together with your friends (or new players) and all this the easiest way ever.

i think it would be very useful in a project like this. i would like to know if you are interested in it, and whether i'm allowed to post the link of it here.

thanks, stargazer


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## Shoe (Apr 21, 2010)

The problem with this is that there are hundreds of DM's (with greater, equal or lesser skill) that will do it for free and people will always take a freebie over a charged service (even if the game is slightly less fun than yours). There are too many free DM's to make money doing it because the work is fun for alot of people.


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## crazy_cat (Apr 22, 2010)

Why hasn't this thread been allowed to die the death it so very much deserved?

_Err - because comments like this bump it? It doesn't look like he's currently active on the site, so the thread will sink soon enough. Bumping it to criticize really doesn't accomplish much. ~ Piratecat_


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## Bullgrit (Apr 22, 2010)

> The problem with this is that there are hundreds of DM's (with greater, equal or lesser skill) that will do it for free and people will always take a freebie over a charged service (even if the game is slightly less fun than yours). There are too many free DM's to make money doing it because the work is fun for alot of people.



I make my own adventures and campaign materials. Yet there are lots of people who make a living at creating adventures and campaign materials.

People can mow their own lawns, (and some like doing it). Yet there are lots of people who make a living at mowing lawns.

People can wash their own cars, (and some like doing it). Yet there are lots of people who make a living at washing cars.

People can cook their own food, (and some like doing it). Yet there are lots of people who make a living at cooking food.

Libraries loan out books for free. Yet there are lots of people who make a living selling books.

There are lots of people who will have sex for free. Yet there are lots of people who make a living at sex.

If people didn't bother trying to find a way to get paid for something that they have done for free, and that others do for free, we'd have a lot less industries than we have now.

Sports. Acting. Singing. Some people get paid a LOT of money to do something that other people will do for free, for fun, and maybe even better.

Bullgrit


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## Janx (Apr 22, 2010)

Bullgrit said:


> I make my own adventures and campaign materials. Yet there are lots of people who make a living at creating adventures and campaign materials.
> 
> People can mow their own lawns, (and some like doing it). Yet there are lots of people who make a living at mowing lawns.
> 
> ...




Good points.

I think one reason folks have beeen down on this "GMing for money" is demand and competition (free is competition)

if I were starting a business, I would try to do one in an area that has demand and doesn't have any obvious competition.

If people were telling me "I wish there were a service for this", or "you should start charging for that, I'd pay for it", that's a signal to investigate for opportunities.

We don't see a lot of ads for "GM wanted, will pay $100 per session".  None of my players suggested, "you should charge for this campaign"

It doesn't mean it can't work, but as far as research to see if the industry can support it, it fails miserably as an idea.

Additionally, not to speak ill of the OP, but he sounded like a desperate person trying to slap together a get-rich-quick scheme.  It didn't sound organized, and I wasn't interested in buying any of it.  That sniff test probably came in the same way for most people who read this thread.

There's tons of young people with crazy ideas that make a go of it and do well (the Facebook guy).  That guy was in the right place at the right time, and slapped together the right product to prove the concept, and knew the right people to get it rolling.

  But there's plenty more people who are NOT positioned to do that.  That's a darn shame.  Plenty of folks on this thread did post useful suggestions to help this kid, even amidst doubting the viability.  

On one hand, an argument could be made that we all should have kept our negative comments to ourselves (if you ain't got nothin nice to say...).  But on the other hand, those comments are also a form of market research.  if all he got was bubbly enthusiasm, he'd being going in without seeing what forces oppose his idea.


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## Tav_Behemoth (Apr 23, 2010)

I donated a D&D party for kids or adults to my son's school's auction. It's on Friday, but there's already a $215 pre-bid from a parent of a fifth grader who wants it for his 12th birthday. Tony Dowler (microdungeons.net, How to Host a Dungeon) also successfully auctioned off a D&D party at a school auction. The appeal here is that it fits into an existing category of something parents are accustomed to doing for kids. Dave Arneson donated 4 hour convention games to con charity auctions and brought in bids of $400 - $600, the appeal there being !!!DAVE ARNESON!!!

All these are charities, but I've posted about commercial examples upthread.


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## Janx (Apr 23, 2010)

Tav certainly demonstrates that somebody can pull it off.  

But then, when Tav describes what he was doing, I have a sense of confidence in his product.  I didn't get that from the OP.

The guys who do TrueDungeon have also got a winning product idea.

Build a real dungeon set, load it on a trailer and run games across the country at conventions.  How can that not make money?

Well, actually there are ways it can fail to make money, but it does pass the initial sniff test of "I'd pay for that."


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## Tav_Behemoth (Apr 23, 2010)

Here's the item description I put into the auction catalog:

*Item Name*:	Dungeons and Dragons Party

*Estimated Value* $:	200

I*tem Description*:	Enjoy an afternoon or evening of Dungeons and Dragons with experienced Dungeon Master, published D&D writer, and Hunter dad Tavis Allison! Play the modern version of this popular role playing game, or take a nostalgia trip and experience how it was in the days when Hunter fielded its own competitive D&D tournament team. This event will be fun for up to eight adults, kids (generally age 10+), or a mix of both. Tavis will contribute the essentials (dice, pencils, graph paper, and snacks), you’ll provide the time and place, and fun will be had by all.

I encourage others to do something similar if you've got a school / work / organizational auction. I'd been thinking about it for a long time, but it was seeing that Tony had actually done it that gave me the confidence; I hope to pass it on!

We talk sometimes about ways to reach new gamers and do outreach and I think this is a good one because:
- it establishes that a good D&D game is something that people value
- you get to meet and play with the winning bidders, who are likely inexperienced and/or lapsed and thus present a good opportunity to show them how to progress further into RPGing
- you and D&D get exposure from everyone who reads the catalog and might say "gee, I remember that" or "huh, that sounds interesting"


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## Kingreaper (Apr 23, 2010)

Tav_Behemoth said:


> published D&D writer,




To me, this is a major point of confidence with that ad. One of the things that make me go *"you know what, I'm NOT getting that experience for free already"*

It seems like the sort of thing that's really necessary to have as part of this sort of pitch, some measure of "I really know what I'm doing; look at what I've done already"


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## Piratecat (Apr 23, 2010)

Tav_Behemoth said:


> Enjoy an afternoon or evening of Dungeons and Dragons with experienced Dungeon Master, published D&D writer, and Hunter dad Tavis Allison!



Dude, I got to game with you for free. I WIN! 

If you need a reference to tell them you're worth it, let me know.


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## darjr (Apr 23, 2010)

Ya know, I've got an RPGA event this Sunday, I would pay a GM to show up and run a couple of events. Not much, granted, but I think would. I don't, however, think anyone could make a living off of it.

Then again, a FLGS really should have paid game organizers/GM's so that they could dictate things they otherwise couldn't. A hybrid general store employee that does some DM/Game organizer duties may be a living.

Now that I think about it, I might know a couple people who do exactly that. Though they are really counter people and your standard kind of store employee I think they get a little something for running events. Though I don't think they GM, they run big events like 40k and magic tournaments.


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## Wik (Apr 23, 2010)

There are relatively few people I would pay to GM for me.  Mostly because, in the end, I prefer being the GM in the long term.  But I can think of a few people I'd toss a few bucks towards:

Piratecat (Because every time I read one of his story hours, my jaw drops)
Rel (even more so, and I love the way he house rules)
Stalker0 (I have no idea how he actually runs a game, but his treatment of the game rules mesh perfectly with my own views, which is usually a good sign)
Lost Soul (his sandbox 4e threads are super useful... plus he likes Mission Hill).

To any of those guys, if you're ever in Victoria and you want to make, say, twenty bucks... LEMME KNOW!


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## Tav_Behemoth (Apr 23, 2010)

Kingreaper said:


> It seems like the sort of thing that's really necessary to have as part of this sort of pitch, some measure of "I really know what I'm doing; look at what I've done already"




I think that being published in the RPG field - or getting props from Piratecat (thanks, dude!) - are useful in making a pitch to _existing gamers_. (Note that Wik bears out my prediction upthread that Pcat is someone who could successfully make that pitch!)

The skills involved in writing for RPGs do not overlap perfectly with those involved in being a good GM, and IMO an amateur who spends 100% of their free time running games and being a player in multiple groups is likely to provide a more entertaining experience than a pro for whom some % of that time gets spent alone in front of the computer thinking about word count. What you're certain to get from someone who's published is the experience of having played with that person and seeing how their gaming relates to their writing. Which is totally awesome - I seek out such opportunities wherever I can - but appeals only to people who are already pretty hardcore.

The kinds of testimonials that you'd want for a general-audience or kid-specific pitch, like for an auction, don't have to be so specialized:

- I've been playing D&D and other RPGs for X years
- I play X times a month with Y players (perhaps with a testimonial from some of them, or someone you can contact for a reference)
- I run successful convention games, most recently at P and Q (perhaps with a testimonial from the con organizers that you show up on time, your events are full, and they get good feedback from your players)

I wouldn't overdo it with these kind of credentials - basically the qualification you need to establish for a general audience is "I know how to play D&D and show people a good time"; you want to quickly establish your geek cred, without turning anyone off by getting into too much detail that only geeks care about like lists of every RPG you've ever played.

Some other kinds of credentials that'd be useful esp for working with kids:
- Experience as a teacher, youth group leader, etc.
- Testimonials from parents / other members of your target audience
- Evidence of community involvement - active in the Scouts, a church, the PTA, whatever.


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## Piratecat (Apr 23, 2010)

Tav_Behemoth said:


> (Note that Wik bears out my prediction upthread that Pcat is someone who could successfully make that pitch!)



Wik, a ticket from Boston --> Vancouver costs less than $20, right? Totally worth it!

Looking at it realistically, there's not a chance I (or anyone, really) could make a living as a freelance GM. You'd spend too much time hunting for clients. The only way you could do it is to find a rich patron.

1. Be good enough that you could contract with several gaming stores to be their sponsored gaming guy. You'd have to bring in more business than you cost, though, which is tricky. 

2. As #1, except you work for a game publisher and demo their products. You'd need to be a good enough GM that everyone would want to buy a game that you run.

3. Find someone filthy rich who loves to game, and talk them into paying you a salary to run it.


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## Barastrondo (Apr 23, 2010)

Piratecat said:


> 3. Find someone filthy rich who loves to game, and talk them into paying you a salary to run it.




My wife says if she ever becomes filthy rich this can be my new job.


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## tennyson (Apr 23, 2010)

I've read the first 6 pages of this thread and loved it.  Duty calls and I can't get around to the remaining pages, but I have to ask:

Was it ever found out if the OP was serious, or playing a joke on everyone?


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## Piratecat (Apr 23, 2010)

Barastrondo said:


> My wife says if she ever becomes filthy rich this can be my new job.



Sweet! See if she'll spring for an apprentice as well. You'll want someone to carry your dice.

My old college roommate effectively owns Brinks Armored Trucks; I so wish he was a gamer.

And Tennyson, not a joke as far as I know. Just someone very sincere, and maybe too optimistic.


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## Tav_Behemoth (Apr 23, 2010)

tennyson said:


> Was it ever found out if the OP was serious, or playing a joke on everyone?




Since we're both New Yorkers I met with Johnny last year to share my experiences with Otherworld Excursions. I found him to be quite serious but not always realistic, which was certainly the case when I started out too.

In my experience, hunting for clients was certainly the major hurdle to doing a service for adult existing gamers. Being published helps here because it increases the likelihood that someone will seek you out instead of the other way around - I know of one case in which this happened (the fans pay him to run a regular session), although the GM in question is someone I'd consider a top ten RPG celebrity.

I agree that you'd be hard pressed to make a full-time living as a GM for adults (although this has been Becky's full-time job for kids with the Roleplay Workshop for many years). However, that's true of RPG writing as well! They're arguably equally economically infeasible; the advantage of pro GMing is that it has more to do with the actual activity of gaming, the advantage of pro writing is that the path to get there is much better established.


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## jaerdaph (Apr 23, 2010)

For $50/hour + travel/lodging expenses, I will come to your house and play _Clue_, _Battleship _or _Stratego _with you.


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## Wik (Apr 23, 2010)

Piratecat said:


> Wik, a ticket from Boston --> Vancouver costs less than $20, right? Totally worth it!




Absolutely!  Of course, the ferry from Vancouver to Victoria is another 20.  And I'm afraid that breaks the bank.


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## cappadochian (Apr 24, 2010)

excuse me but i see that a lot of people are interested in playing for money. some of you have mentioned expenses (traveling for example) that could be avoided if you would play online. maybe you have missed my post a few posts before but i have a website that makes it possible to play rpgs online speaking through a VoIP webphone that is running right on tha site and requires no installation at all, and it's almost as good as being together. i have tried it with people i don't know and i had very good experiences. do you think i may post the website link here without being banned? it's for free so i'm not selling anything. if DMs decide they can run games for money but basically to use my site is free.

i think the concept to play for money, is almost completely equal to the question to play online, because this can make things very simple, you can reach much more people through this. what do you think?


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## buddhafrog (Nov 8, 2010)

Wow, I loved this thread.  I almost feel like us readers/posters should donate to C_C for this thread - a thread about becoming a professional DM might earn more money than his actual DM'ing.  I do hope he is well and found a steady source of income.  Would love to hear an update.

[MENTION=18017]Tav_Behemoth[/MENTION]
Can you give us an update on how your DM auction gameplay went? I like that idea.

I am a professional DM of sorts.  Actually I'm an ESL teacher living overseas, teaching small classes of between 2~4 students.  Most of my classes consist of playing D&D.  It's quite interesting and I feel fortunate.  And the kids absolutely love it.


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## Tyler Do'Urden (Nov 8, 2010)

That's funny, Buddhafrog... I taught business English full-time for two years (and still do it for extra money), and often referred to it as "Office D&D".  DMing skills are very transferrable to ESL- and I'm surprised nobody recommended it to the OP.  Not to mention, living in an east asian megacity is like living in nerd paradise...


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