# Are you glad the Star Wars prequels were even made?



## Kai Lord (Jan 8, 2004)

Now having seen the first two Episodes for better or worse, are you glad the Star Wars prequels have been made?


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## barsoomcore (Jan 8, 2004)

I do wish they had not been made. It's not the end of the world, but my life is no better for having seen them, and I'm out the ticket price now.


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## John Crichton (Jan 8, 2004)

I can already see the pitchforks and torches feel this type of thread will garner, but I'll bite...

I've loved the prequels. With Star Wars and Lord of the Rings co-existing, these last few years have been really a treat for me.


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## Crothian (Jan 8, 2004)

The prequals did everything I wanted them to do: Lightsabre Battles.  Lucas could have brought in Care Bears, as long as they fought with light sabres and I'd be happy.  People expect to much from him, the orginals were just so different then had ever been done there was no way he was ever going to close to that ever again.  But luckily, the movies have steadily gotten worse overall from Hollywood, so his drop in talent doesn't seem as bad.


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## Wombat (Jan 8, 2004)

Sadly, I must continue in the tradition of the Complaining Wombat...  

I have not enjoyed either of the two prequels, neither as follow-ups (lead-ups?) to the original films nor as films in their own rights.  The plots have seemed forced, shallow, and incredibly derivative.  Admittedly "Star Wars" (now "A New Hope", but I keep to the old title) was far from being an amazing bit of writing (and we won't even mention most of the acting), but it had the advantage of being, for its time, very fresh and exciting -- a Pure Hero Film after a good five to six year run of nothing but moral greys, as well as being one of the first really big Special Effects Spectaculars.  The "New Trilogy" has, conversely, fallen back to blowing up more Death Stars, having more shallow dialogue, and a wretching increase in the Kewt Factor.

Okay, one person's take only, obviously, but so far the only people I have run across in the flesh who actually like the films are under 12 years old.


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## BrooklynKnight (Jan 8, 2004)

Wombat said:
			
		

> Okay, one person's take only, obviously, but so far the only people I have run across in the flesh who actually like the films are under 12 years old.



Wow, Crothian is 12?!


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## Crothian (Jan 8, 2004)

ArthurQ said:
			
		

> Wow, Crothian is 12?!




Shhh!!  I though we were keeping my age secret!!


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## Ycore Rixle (Jan 8, 2004)

I enjoyed the prequels very much. Well, at least the second one. The first has slowly grown on me. After Episode 3, I wish they would make some more movies set in the era of the New Republic.


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## BiggusGeekus (Jan 8, 2004)

I stand by my assertation that the best lightsaber duels were in Ep1 against Darth Maul.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Jan 8, 2004)

BiggusGeekus said:
			
		

> I stand by my assertation that the best lightsaber duels were in Ep1 against Darth Maul.




Definatly a good one...though I'm partial to Luke vs. Vader, Round 1 on Bespin. I think its the whole orange colour tint to the first half that sells it for me. 

Now just have to see Anakin vs. Obi-Wan...

As for the topic, I'm with JC and others that have said they're good, fun movies.


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## John Crichton (Jan 8, 2004)

Wombat said:
			
		

> Okay, one person's take only, obviously, but so far the only people I have run across in the flesh who actually like the films are under 12 years old.



That's kinda funny.  I work at Yale and most of the students and staff there like the prequels.  Just another take...


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## Piratecat (Jan 8, 2004)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> That's kinda funny.  I work at Yale and most of the students and staff there like the prequels.  Just another take...




[OT hijack] What do you do there, John? [/hijack]


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## BrooklynKnight (Jan 8, 2004)

If his Icon isint a dead give away he stands by the local Quick E Mart selling a certain plant and not talking much, while his tall blond and mouthy friend insults the passersbye.


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## CCamfield (Jan 8, 2004)

*Well, I guess I can't vote*

Thought the first movie sucked, never saw the second one.  Really don't care in the sense of "they suck, go away, I don't want to think about them, I want the original cuts of the original trilogy on DVD and I'm not going to get them, Lucas sucks bah humbug"


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## WayneLigon (Jan 8, 2004)

Wow, looks like things are pretty equally divided at the time I make this post  I don't think they were as good as the originals, but I do like them well enough. There's still enough there I like.


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## Michael Tree (Jan 8, 2004)

I was seriously disappointed with the first one, and was probably only entertained by the second because I had such low expectations.  That said, I'm happy they were made, if only because of the joy of watching lightsaber battles and the depth they've given to the Emperor.


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## Darrin Drader (Jan 8, 2004)

I fall into the "Yes, even though I don't like them as much as the originals" category. I always felt that it would be a shame if they were never made. Now that they have been they certainly don't measure up to the originals, but then they definitely do have a very different story to tell. Were I in Lucas's shoes, I would have done certain things differently: no Jar Jar (at least not as we know him), no pod racing, no Anakin as a child, no midichlorians, Anakin and Padme would not ahve been so wooden in AotC, and Darth Maul would have been given more lines and I probably would have kept him around longer than one movie. As a matter of fact, I think they should have condensed Ep1 into a 15 minute prelude to Ep 2, made the Clone Wars into Ep 2, and then left Ep 3 where it will be. I would have worked in Yoda lightsaber fighting, but I wouldn't have had him be the one to pull Obi One and Anakin's fat out of the fryer (I would have made it just as grim as the ending to Empire Strikes Back).

Having said that, there are many aspects that I do like. I agree that some of the best lightsaber fighting was against Darth Maul in Ep.1. The action sequences in Ep.2 weren't at all bad. I thought that bringing us the all-out battle at the end of Ep. 2 was also highly entertaining. I like the fact that after reading about Coruscant for many years, we finally get to see what it looks like. In fact, the fleshing out of the universe, delving into the populated areas, and having a very politically driven storyline greatly appeals to me. Lets face it, the fact that it was Jar Jar that sells out the republic to Palpatine in Ep2 almopst makes that character worth watching in Ep1.

The explanation of the clones was worthwhile. The fight between Jango Fett and Obi One was clearly one of the highlights, and its also very cool to see the role that Boba Fett plays in the larger story. He is far more central to the story than most had previously guessed.

Seeing more than 3 jedi in the entire trilogy is another very cool thing about the prequels. We get to see the jedi order as it once was. And then in Ep3, we get to see how it gets destroyed.We get to see the various aliens that made up the jedi order, we get to see varying fighting styles, and we get to see a major battle involving a bunch of jedi.

All in all, the prequels aren't that bad. They're just missing the special magic that 4 - 6 had. I miss having a rogue as one of the main characters, I miss the rebellion storyline and I miss the theme of hope in the face of overwhelming odds. Of course, given the subject matter, its not lie much of that could have made it in.

So there! Glad you asked?


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## Endur (Jan 8, 2004)

The new Star Wars movies have as much relationship to the original Star Wars movies as the new Battlestar Galatica mini-series has to the original Battlestar series.

Some of the names are the same, but the movies are completely different.



			
				Kai Lord said:
			
		

> Now having seen the first two Episodes for better or worse, are you glad the Star Wars prequels have been made?


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## John Crichton (Jan 8, 2004)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> [OT hijack] What do you do there, John? [/hijack]



I'm a supervisor at the main library (Sterling). I mainly supervise students (undergrads and grads) and have a good deal of contact with librarians because of special projects. It's a good gig. I also provide backup to another library on campus and fill in for other department supervisors when they take vacations or long breaks. [/job stuff]


			
				ArthurQ said:
			
		

> If his Icon isint a dead give away he stands by the local Quick E Mart selling a certain plant and not talking much, while his tall blond and mouthy friend insults the passersbye.



That's on weekends.  

:: edited in second quote ::


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## johnsemlak (Jan 8, 2004)

My Take:

Part of the mystic to Star Wars was the whole _In Medias Res_ motif.  The Movie begins "A long time ago...', but it actually is Futuristic Sci-fi.  Paradoxal.  The you see the words 'Episode 4'.  You're starting in the middle of a much longer epic story.  Very Tolkienian.

Doing the first part of the series steals the Magic of what made Star Wars in the first place.  Notice, Tolkien never wrote a novel about the earlier war of the Last Alliance of Elves and Men (or whatever that conflict was called).  He wrote the Silmarilian (sp?) but that's a very different product.

Now, that said, like everyone else I was very excited about the new films coming out.  Who wouldn't be?  And they do contain some nice scenes, like the lightsabre fight in the first film.  

Do I wish Episodes 1-3 were never made?  DUnno, nobody makes me watch them.  I can ignore them if I choose.  But I am disappointed with them.


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## John Crichton (Jan 8, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> The new Star Wars movies have as much relationship to the original Star Wars movies as the new Battlestar Galatica mini-series has to the original Battlestar series.
> 
> Some of the names are the same, but the movies are completely different.



I think that is a bit premature and a terribly inaccurate comparison; especially considering that we haven't seen the linking movie (Episode III) yet.

It is inaccurate because the creators of the new BSG made a ton of changes on purpose and distanced themselves from the original series.  The SW prequels are simply adding to the mythos.


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## Dark Jezter (Jan 8, 2004)

I voted "Yes, even though I don't like them as much as the originals."

I really do like the prequels.  I liked Episode 1 a lot, and I liked Episode 2 even more.  There are a few things I would change in them (such as midichlorians), but on a whole I think that they are good movies that definately deserve to be made.

And I've got high hopes for Episode 3.


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## KenM (Jan 8, 2004)

IMO Clones made Menace a better movie. I enjoy them, but I don't think they are as good as 4-6. I'll reserve saying anything about the prequel triogy as a whole until I have seen ep. 3.


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## Ranger REG (Jan 8, 2004)

I guess I'm glad Lucas made the Prequel, although he could do better. I think he should have hired a more qualified director than he is, better writers than he is, and a better casting directer than he is.


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## jdavis (Jan 8, 2004)

Whisperfoot said:
			
		

> I fall into the "Yes, even though I don't like them as much as the originals" category. I always felt that it would be a shame if they were never made. Now that they have been they certainly don't measure up to the originals, but then they definitely do have a very different story to tell. Were I in Lucas's shoes, I would have done certain things differently: no Jar Jar (at least not as we know him), no pod racing, no Anakin as a child, no midichlorians, Anakin and Padme would not ahve been so wooden in AotC, and Darth Maul would have been given more lines and I probably would have kept him around longer than one movie. As a matter of fact, I think they should have condensed Ep1 into a 15 minute prelude to Ep 2, made the Clone Wars into Ep 2, and then left Ep 3 where it will be. I would have worked in Yoda lightsaber fighting, but I wouldn't have had him be the one to pull Obi One and Anakin's fat out of the fryer (I would have made it just as grim as the ending to Empire Strikes Back).
> 
> Having said that, there are many aspects that I do like. I agree that some of the best lightsaber fighting was against Darth Maul in Ep.1. The action sequences in Ep.2 weren't at all bad. I thought that bringing us the all-out battle at the end of Ep. 2 was also highly entertaining. I like the fact that after reading about Coruscant for many years, we finally get to see what it looks like. In fact, the fleshing out of the universe, delving into the populated areas, and having a very politically driven storyline greatly appeals to me. Lets face it, the fact that it was Jar Jar that sells out the republic to Palpatine in Ep2 almopst makes that character worth watching in Ep1.
> 
> ...



Me and a buddy were just talking about the same thing a while back, Phantom Menace being the first 15 minutes of Attack of the Clones and having the second movie being during the clone wars. I agree with a lot of what you are saying here.

I guess I fall into the glad they were made but disappointed at how they turned out catagory. It was a real hard day when I realized that Lucas isn't as smart as everybody always gave him credit for being. We could go on and on about where the mistakes were made in the movies but for me the most glaring problem I see is that he didn't let somebody else direct them. Lucas has admitted that he's a little out of touch with the real world and it really shows in Phantom Menace, I have to wonder how Phantom Menace would of turned out with a decent Director at the helm (more/less a actual good director). I also have to wonder how things would of been if he had used a profesional script writer to write the dialog for his storyline (Like Empire and Jedi had). It's not that they are bad movies it's just that the first 3 were so darn good words like decent and ok are not good enough for a Star Wars movie, I expected the greatest movie going experience of all time (obviously I was set up to be disappointed no matter what Lucas did anyway). They are decent movies but I just really miss the magic Star Wars had when I was 7 years old.


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## shilsen (Jan 8, 2004)

BiggusGeekus said:
			
		

> I stand by my assertation that the best lightsaber duels were in Ep1 against Darth Maul.




[Stands next to BiggusGeekus.]

I'm glad the movies were made. They're good entertainment and I enjoyed them. Just for the record, I am 29 going on 550, so I don't quite fit Wombat's assertion, and I know a lot of people my age and older who quite enjoyed them. I agree that I didn't enjoy them as much as I did Ep.4-6, but that has as much if not more to do with my tastes changing than with the quality of the movies (right now I wouldn't enjoy 4-6 substantially more than 1 and 2).


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## Arnwyn (Jan 8, 2004)

Yes, I'm glad they were made, warts and all. Some parts of them have been uncomfortable, but others parts are *exactly* what I've always wanted to see (as Crothian pointed out: lightsabre fights, and as Whisperfoot noted: the Jedi as they once were).


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## Wombat (Jan 8, 2004)

ArthurQ said:
			
		

> Wow, Crothian is 12?!




The key phrase was "in the flesh", like face-to-face, not on the internet....


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## Narfellus (Jan 8, 2004)

*star wars*

I gotta agree with some of the posters that it would be very hard to like the new trilogy as much as the old. But i DON'T think it was impossible. I think that if Lucas had kept his ideas, and then wisely hired other experienced people to bring his vision alive (Spielberg and a script doctor), then yes, Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones could have been great. Well, of course Lucas hired experienced people, but a lot of what makes a film unforgettable doesn't have to do with the script. The actors have to click, the dialogue has to work, the action sequences (if any) must be believable, and then you have sets and costumes and blah blah blah.
   So, the bottom line is that even with unlimited funds one cannot make the greatest film ever. You still gotta know what you're doing.


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## Henry (Jan 8, 2004)

Liked 'em, glad they were made, wish their stories were stonger, but 

(A) the Lightsaber fights

(B) the chase scenes

(C) the Jedi doing what they do

All gave me miles of RPG imagery and material, and for that I am grateful.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Jan 8, 2004)

If you went into the theater expecting something that was going to be as good or better than the greatest movie trilogy ever...well no wonder you are dissapointed.  Or maybe you just didn't like them, I don't care.  I enjoyed them quite a bit.   I am dying to see Episode 3, it's easily the movie I've been most anticipating since 1997 or so when I learned he was making the prequals.  The saber fight between Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, & Maul was amazing, as were the saber fights in Ep2.  But I have yet to see a sword/lightsaber fight that equals the power of the saber fight in Empire, and the final battle of Luke & Vader in Jedi.  I get chills during the fight in Jedi.   Simply amazing stuff.  

I love Star Wars!!!!


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## KidCthulhu (Jan 8, 2004)

Me, I resent the movies.  Lucas made me his bitch, and I took it.  He can talk all he wants about Ep 1 & 2 being for kids, but that doesn't justify the suck factor.  Plenty of movies made for children are also good, quality films that adults can enjoy too.

I agree with what been said.  He really overestimated his own talents, and gave us an inferior version of his dream because he couldn't delegate.  And I really resent that missed potential.  "could have been good" and "could be worse" aren't really what we deserve from Star Wars.


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## Kai Lord (Jan 8, 2004)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> If you went into the theater expecting something that was going to be as good or better than the greatest movie trilogy ever...well no wonder you are dissapointed.



I don't think anyone was expecting Episode II to be better than Lord of the Rings.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Jan 8, 2004)

I would have thought it was obvious I was referring to the Star Wars Trilogy Episodes 4-6.   Much more satisifying to watch and much more fun than the LotR, but that's not the point of this thread.


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## stevelabny (Jan 8, 2004)

personally, i think answering any of these prequel-trilogy questions without seeing the third movie is silly. i think the third one will validate the making of the three movies, even if it doesnt change peoples minds about how good they are.

what i am really curious about,if ANYONE can help me, is why my opinions on phantom menace and clones are almost exactly opposite of other peoples.

i pretty much LIKED phantom menace. it started a little slow,and had a few things that were just bizarre but that was ok, because Jedi had a few scenes that made me cringe too.

Clones on the other hand was mostly awful. Shoehorning Boba Fett into the storyline in the most awkward way possible just to cater to Fett-fanboys, having your "villian" be a very unimpressive old man, the love story from nowhere  "no anakin, no anakin, ok, i love you",  having some of the worst special effects caught on film since the 80s, and the old-school crime-movie diner scene which I just can't sit through without mocking. 

The only part of Clones I DID like was...anakin.  I absolutely loved the way Hayden delivered his "they're animals, and i slaughtered them like animals" and all his stupid sappy dialogue to amidala.  Of course, unless he's using the little-mentioned jedi-mind-rape technique, theres no way she would ever fall for him but that problem is with Amidala's script and Portman's cardboard acting, not anakin.  Anakin was the only saving grace of the movie for me. And the part most other people say they hated most.

Can anyone explain this phenomenon?


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Jan 8, 2004)

I didn't hate Anakin myself, I'm not so sure why he's so hated.   But I don't think it would have ever met the expectations that had been building around it.


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## Mathew_Freeman (Jan 8, 2004)

"Yes, although I didn't enjoy them as much as the originals."

I reiterate the points above about lightsaber duels (which are so much better than the slow moving tiptoeing Ep 4-6 duels) and watching Jedis at the peak of their power is just great.

What the first three films really miss over 4-6 is the Han Solo equivalent. The character that isn't prepared to take it all so damn seriously all the time. Although putting one in would have altered the nature of the first three episodes considerably.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Jan 8, 2004)

Hmmm...I thought the duels in Ep 4-6 had so much more punch and power than the admittedly more acrobatic stuff in Ep1-2.   When Luke hears Vader say his Sister will do if he won't and attacks...well I am swept away.  The score playing, Luke in a frenzy of anger and rage teetering on the edge of the Dark Side and oblivion...wow that's a saber fight*.   Plus I think Vader and Luke didn't appear to waste a ton of energy doing flips and all kinds of other fancy, but maybe unnecessary moves.   I don't recall Anakin doing a lot of that either, he seemed more to the point than flashy. 

*Don't even get me going on the battle in Empire.


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## Bass Puppet (Jan 8, 2004)

Can I chime in with "Glad they made the Prequel's, but wished somebody else directed them?" I know, I know, I haven't seen the last one, but should I chance it? I mean, it's been since 1977.


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## Narfellus (Jan 8, 2004)

*episode 2*

Risk it Bass Puppet. Just don't watch Clones expecting a whole lot. I personally think that CGI is so so so so so overdone and sloppy looking that they shouldn't bother. On the other hand, it's wonderful experience for artists and technicians doing a craft i CAN'T do, and a lot of the CGI effects in movies are impressive, but never foolproof. I would be hard pressed to see a movie and say, "I couldn't even tell that was done by a computer." 
  If ILM can reach that point one day, that's cool i guess. But this has been said before, for Lucas, he wanted to push the effects as far as he could. I can only assume he was pleased with the end result. I for one was not. The animation still looks like a cartoon to me. I like the old-school blue screens and models and stop motion.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Jan 8, 2004)

Narfellus said:
			
		

> I like the old-school blue screens and models and stop motion.




Me too. Models look real to me.   CGI can't even get close to the solid "feel" of models on screen.


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## Pants (Jan 8, 2004)

My opinion, tPM was complete and utter crap.  Terrible, terrible movie.  If I ever hear another 'Yipee' I'll kill myself.

AotC on the other hand was fun.  While the acting and script wasn't that great, it was still a fun movie.  Good fight scenes, good special effects, good story.  It was a fun, entertaining movie.

Yet, until Lucas proves that tPM was necessary for the overall story, I will say that it is the one movie that should not have been made.  The only real important parts in the movie are character introductions, Anakin is introduced, Obi Wan, Padme, Palpatine, Yoda are all introduced.  That's it.  Is the Trade Federation's attack on Naboo so important that it has to have it's own movie?  It could easily be relegated to to the text at the beginning of AotC or a 15 minute blurb.  Besides the characters, I don't really see much in tPM that really ties in with the overall plot.  One really cool lightsaber fight just can't save a movie with a bad story, bad acting, and bad writing.  Sorry.


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## John Crichton (Jan 8, 2004)

Narfellus said:
			
		

> Risk it Bass Puppet. Just don't watch Clones expecting a whole lot. I personally think that CGI is so so so so so overdone and sloppy looking that they shouldn't bother. On the other hand, it's wonderful experience for artists and technicians doing a craft i CAN'T do, and a lot of the CGI effects in movies are impressive, but never foolproof. I would be hard pressed to see a movie and say, "I couldn't even tell that was done by a computer."
> If ILM can reach that point one day, that's cool i guess. But this has been said before, for Lucas, he wanted to push the effects as far as he could. I can only assume he was pleased with the end result. I for one was not. The animation still looks like a cartoon to me. I like the old-school blue screens and models and stop motion.



For the sake of another opinion, I thought the FX in both prequels were excellent.  There were a few places where I had a few very small issues but the same was true for the original trilogy.  There was no sloppiness at all.  Both films were a wonderful ride through the imaginary - which is a point I think many people miss.


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## Welverin (Jan 8, 2004)

Just can't let go can you KL?

Anyway, I voted for _Yes, because to me they're comparable to the first trilogy_, but wish you had included _Yes, I like them as much as the originals even thought they aren't as good_.



			
				johnsemlak said:
			
		

> but it actually is Futuristic Sci-fi.




They're futuristic, but they aren't sci-fi.



			
				stevelabny said:
			
		

> The only part of Clones I DID like was...anakin.  I absolutely loved the way Hayden delivered his "they're animals, and i slaughtered them like animals" and all his stupid sappy dialogue to amidala.  Of course, unless he's using the little-mentioned jedi-mind-rape technique, theres no way she would ever fall for him but that problem is with Amidala's script and Portman's cardboard acting, not anakin.  Anakin was the only saving grace of the movie for me. And the part most other people say they hated most.




Well I agree with all of that except the last two lines, he wasn't the only part of the movie I liked. I suspect the reason so many people hate Hayden's performance is because he does come across as an annoying punk and that's either not what they want or expect Anakin to be like. That then gets translated to bad acting (apparently it's not possible for a character to be unlikable or annoying).

To me Anakin comes across exactly as he should, an arrogant, yet somewhat insecure punk who does have the first clue about women.

Ole Stone-face Portman gets me with her ‘Oh, you slaughter a whole tribe of people, how nice’ (think of the king in the Princess Bride when Buttercup says she’s going to kill herself).



			
				John Crichton said:
			
		

> Both films were a wonderful ride through the imaginary - which is a point I think many people miss.




Isn’t that the whole point of the entire series?

I believe it’s in the Ep2 commentary that George said that he was trying to make them in such a way that I people (could) turn of the dialogue they would still the gist of what the story is about.


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## John Crichton (Jan 8, 2004)

Welverin said:
			
		

> They're futuristic, but they aren't sci-fi.
> 
> Well I agree with all of that except the last two lines, he wasn't the only part of the movie I liked. I suspect the reason so many people hate Hayden's performance is because he does come across as an annoying punk and that's either not what they want or expect Anakin to be like. That then gets translated to bad acting (apparently it's not possible for a character to be unlikable or annoying).
> 
> ...



We agree almost completely about these things, Welverin.  Portman's performance was the weakest of the principal actors.  Anakin being a punk made sense, he seethed through almost the entire film which should be a good lead-in to part 3.


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## Tom Cashel (Jan 8, 2004)

I liked them not as much as the OT, but I'm glads they were made and that another is on it's way...with Chewie!!



			
				CCamfield said:
			
		

> I want the original cuts of the original trilogy on DVD and I'm not going to get them...




SIGN THE PETITION.



			
				barsoomcore said:
			
		

> ...but my life is no better for having seen them...




Hey, no offense, but your life must be pretty dismal if you're waiting around for George Lucas to improve it.


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## barsoomcore (Jan 9, 2004)

Tom Cashel said:
			
		

> Hey, no offense, but your life must be pretty dismal if you're waiting around for George Lucas to improve it.



Well, the cocaine ran out in 1996, so what am I supposed to do?



Seriously, though, when I see a good movie, my life gets better. I get entertained, my life gets better. Neither of the two prequels made my life better, so I'm out the ticket price and a few hours.

Like I said, not the end of the world, but hey, $20 is $20.

I could have bought _Faster, Pussycat! Kill! Kill!_ with the money, you know? Or, like, a bottle of Tanqueray's. George wants to improve my life, he could mail me some booze. Or Russ Meyer movies.


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## jdavis (Jan 9, 2004)

I didn't have all that much problem with the acting as I did the script, it's not the actors fault they had such stupid lines. Ewan McGregor absolutly nailed Sir Alec Guiness, I had no problem believing he was a younger Obi Wan. Same with Ian McDiarmid with the Emperor, Hayden Christinsen was fine in the movie but I just didn't see a young Darth Vader there. Portman didn't really cut it but a lot of the problems there can go back to this is Lucas first love story ever and it really shows. Man you know Spielberg would of bailed him out if he had just asked. Lucas is a technical director he just doesn't get a lot out of his actors. You can't fix poor acting in post preduction with special effects. Lucas is a very good producer but as a writer and director he is lacking.


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## Gizzard (Jan 9, 2004)

> Hayden Christinsen was fine in the movie but I just didn't see a young Darth Vader there. Portman didn't really cut it but a lot of the problems there can go back to this is Lucas first love story ever and it really shows.




Thats the problem; the script is so bad that the actors just are forced to stand there and read non-scensical lines.  It's not really their fault.  

There's zero chemistry between Christiansen and Portman, which doesn't help matters, but am I supposed to believe that wise ex-Queen Amidala falls for an immature jerk who's most attractive feature is that he can levitate a pear?  When I first saw the movie I thought this was Haydens fault; that he wasn't making Aniken believable; that he didn't have a likable, decent aspect to his character.  When I saw it again, I thought that Hayden is giving a reasonable performance within the narrow confines of the character (as a jerk) and that it was Portman who wasn't carrying her fair share.  

After thinking about it some more, I've got to blame the script.  I mean, really, what actor could have made those lines work?  

Tangent 1:  I would like to see Christopher Walken give a try as Aniken.  Sure, he's a bit old for the part, but wouldn't it be great to see him save lines like "I don't like sand, because its rough and coarse.  Not soft and smooth like yoooou."  It'd be properly freaky, thats for sure, instead of just lame.  ;-)

Tangent 2: Can anyone name something good about these movies except the special effects sequences?  I see a lot of people in this thread defending the movies because light sabers are cool, but I don't see anyone talking about anything else.  It's almost like light-saber porn, "who cares about the plot as long as we get to see people swinging their sabers around." :-/


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## John Crichton (Jan 9, 2004)

Gizzard said:
			
		

> Tangent 2: Can anyone name something good about these movies except the special effects sequences? I see a lot of people in this thread defending the movies because light sabers are cool, but I don't see anyone talking about anything else. It's almost like light-saber porn, "who cares about the plot as long as we get to see people swinging their sabers around." :-/



I'll take this one.

I loved every scene with Obi-wan.  His investigation, from Coruscant to Kamino to Geonosis was quite cool.  The Kamino sequence (no, not just the awesome fight) was very well done.  This was one of the few parts of the film where Lucas' directing actually impressed me.  It was beat-for-beat very cool.  The introduction of the clone troopers, with the Imperial March variant playing in the background was creepy and foreboding.

Any scenes with Dooku, Palpatine or Yoda were great as well.  My favorite was Palpatine's manipulation of Anakin both politically and from under the nose of the council.  The Yoda fight blew me away but the scene with the children where we seen him being playful was really fun.

Jango Fett was well done as well.  His verbal jabbing with Obi-wan hinted as his badassness.  Boba Fett, in kid form, was disturbing.  He got off on all the killing and the bounty hunter lifestyle that his father led.

Anakin's scenes with his mother and his rage were equally creepy and let us glimpse the Vader to come.  It has been said that this was not Anakin's movie, it was Obi-wan's.  I believe it.  The focus for the 3rd will shift more to Anakin and a little less on Obi-wan.

I also agree with an earlier poster who said that AotC made tPM a better film.  It made Jar-Jar out to be the truly tragic character that he is.  He just wants to help.  He lived through the war even though he is a clutz and a fool (every war has a fool).  Palpatine took advantage of him like the master manipulator that he is.  It made Jar Jar have a more of a point.

Those were my high-points aside from the last 40 minutes of non-stop action.  That 40 minutes being some of the best put to film in recent memory as far as action goes.


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## Kai Lord (Jan 9, 2004)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> I'll take this one.



Interesting that you neglect to mention the one scene from the prequels I _did_ feel was on par with the originals:  Anakin departing the Lars homestead to search for his mother.

Him staring at the twin sunset in the exact same place where an angst ridden Luke would one day look longingly at the horizon.  Then the shadow he cast on the hut when embracing Amidala before the rousing score as he strode to the speeder bike and blasted off.

*That* was Star Wars to me.  *That* was something that a young Darth Vader would do.  That alone took me back to the epic grandeur of the first three films.

I also loved how they brilliantly explained the "look" Uncle Owen gives Beru in the original Star Wars when Luke mentions that the droids belong to someone named "Obi-Wan."  In AOTC when they're all standing at Shmi's grave 3PO comes rushing out of the ship saying they have an urgent message from Obi-Wan Kenobi, right in full earshot of Owen and Beru.

Then Anakin and Amidala hurriedly depart and as a result Anakin goes off on an adventure, has an arm amputated, is assumedly kicked out of the Jedi Order, and eventually "killed."  No wonder Owen would be against Luke seeking out Kenobi and following in his father's footsteps.

For all the gaping continuity errors between the trilogies, that tie-in was spectacular.

As for the poll, I still voted "No, because they detract too much from the originals."  TPM was just horrid in that regard.  Midichlorians.  Anakin building C-3PO.  The Jedi at the peak of their supposed badassedness being nothing but incompetent bureaucrats.  Introducing Gungans into the saga.  Midichlorians.  Liam Neeson being Obi-Wan's instructor instead of Yoda.  Oh, and midichlorians.

AOTC wasn't too bad, young Boba Fett was awesome and Jango Woo Fett was pretty cool.  The Clone Battle had ZERO narrative weight (it was one giant field test, whoopedy doo) and the Death Star being designed by *bugs* instead of Imperials was downright stupid.  At least the Clonetroopers looked badass.  Maybe they'll get to do something that actually means something in Episode III.


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## John Crichton (Jan 9, 2004)

Kai Lord said:
			
		

> Interesting that you neglect to mention the one scene from the prequels I _did_ feel was on par with the originals: Anakin departing the Lars homestead to search for his mother.
> 
> Him staring at the twin sunset in the exact same place where an angst ridden Luke would one day look longingly at the horizon. Then the shadow he cast on the hut when embracing Amidala before the rousing score as he strode to the speeder bike and blasted off.



Oops, thought I did.  Must have missed that one in my haste.  I loved that scene with the modified Vader theme playing in the background.

Looking back at my post, I didn't specify but that was part of the "Anakin rage" sequence.  Good stuff.


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## John Crichton (Jan 9, 2004)

Kai Lord said:
			
		

> As for the poll, I still voted "No, because they detract too much from the originals." TPM was just horrid in that regard. Midichlorians. Anakin building C-3PO. The Jedi at the peak of their supposed badassedness being nothing but incompetent bureaucrats. Introducing Gungans into the saga. Midichlorians. Liam Neeson being Obi-Wan's instructor instead of Yoda. Oh, and midichlorians.



Midichlorians didn't bug me.  The tech level was high enough for them to be able to detect that kind of thing.  It meant nothing to me in the movie and I didn't dwell on it. 


			
				Kai Lord said:
			
		

> AOTC wasn't too bad, young Boba Fett was awesome and Jango Woo Fett was pretty cool. The Clone Battle had ZERO narrative weight (it was one giant field test, whoopedy doo) and the Death Star being designed by *bugs* instead of Imperials was downright stupid. At least the Clonetroopers looked badass. Maybe they'll get to do something that actually means something in Episode III.



Field test?  That's a bit harsh.  It was the start of the Clone War, the impetus for Boba's hate of the Jedi and the further falling of Anakin in his battle with Dooku.  Good enough for me.

As for the Death Star not being designed by the Empire - I never thought it was.


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## Kai Lord (Jan 9, 2004)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> Field test?  That's a bit harsh.  It was the start of the Clone War, the impetus for Boba's hate of the Jedi and the further falling of Anakin in his battle with Dooku.



No, those were the results of the events that took place in the arena (Mace killing Boba's father and Dooku fueling Anakin's rage by having his droids kill the Jedi.)  The *arrival* of the Clones definitely impacted the story, because they saved the good guys, the following field test against the droids meant _nothing_, however.  There were no stakes in that battle.  No drama.  No tension.

A mere diversion to Anakin and Obi-Wan as they followed Dooku.



			
				John Crichton said:
			
		

> As for the Death Star not being designed by the Empire - I never thought it was.



"Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed."  --Vader to an Imperial Officer.


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## John Crichton (Jan 9, 2004)

Kai Lord said:
			
		

> No, those were the results of the events that took place in the arena (Mace killing Boba's father and Dooku fueling Anakin's rage by having his droids kill the Jedi.) The *arrival* of the Clones definitely impacted the story, because they saved the good guys, the following field test against the droids meant _nothing_, however. There were no stakes in that battle. No drama. No tension.
> 
> A mere diversion to Anakin and Obi-Wan as they followed Dooku.



That battle didn't last all that long. It was onscreen for a few minutes. The 40 minutes sequence as a whole was excellent. The wars scenes may have been gratuitous to you. There were scenes like that in LotR as well but I loved them just the same. Hammer the same scenes in Star Wars all you like, no big. I wish you enjoyed them as I did. 

Edit:  The battle scenes that accompanied Anakin and Obi-wan's persuit showed the prowess of the clone army and the leadership ability of Yoda and Windu.  I'll admit they were there for some eye-candy as well.  However, those scenes didn't mean nothing.  There was the tension of stopping the ships from getting into orbit which was important to the battle.  If those ships are all grounded (in addition to Dooku being captured) the war never begins.


			
				Kai Lord said:
			
		

> "Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed." --Vader to an Imperial Officer.



Yes, the Empire _constructed_ the Death Star as in they built it from a set of plans. Doesn't mean they designed it. I'm not saying you are wrong, I am saying there are multiple ways to take where the Death Star came from.


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## Kai Lord (Jan 9, 2004)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> That battle didn't last all that long. It was onscreen for a few minutes. The 40 minutes sequence as a whole was excellent. The wars scenes may have been gratuitous to you. There were scenes like that in LotR as well but I loved them just the same. Hammer the same scenes in Star Wars all you like, no big. I wish you enjoyed them as I did.



If the Clone Battle at the end of AOTC was comparable to any of the battles in the LOTR films, far be it from me to press my point and risk diminishing it in your eyes.

It definitely looked cool as hell, can't argue with that.


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## Gizzard (Jan 9, 2004)

> I'll take this one.
> 
> I loved every scene with Obi-wan. His investigation, from Coruscant to Kamino to Geonosis was quite cool. The Kamino sequence (no, not just the awesome fight) was very well done. This was one of the few parts of the film where Lucas' directing actually impressed me. It was beat-for-beat very cool. The introduction of the clone troopers, with the Imperial March variant playing in the background was creepy and foreboding.




I'm just going to pick this first one since it's convenient rather than debating the whole post.  ;-)

To start, I'll admit that Ewan McGregor is one of the better things in the movie, somehow managing to capture what I consider to be the classic Star Wars spirit in his performance.  I'll give you that.  He's still kicked around by GL's poor script, but he does a generally good job.  

Still, look at this investigation sequence.  Obi-Wan as a character is just all over the map.   Is Obi-Wan really supposed to be dense or is scene in Yoda's classroom just something that GL randomly threw into the movie.  Look, children tell Obi-Wan what is obvious to the audience -- that the planet Kamino is not really missing!  Uh, OK.  Did Obi-Wan really not think of this on the way over from the library?  

The more I think about this, the more I think I am on to something.  GL intends Obi-Wan to come across as dim.  Would he have even gotten off of Kamino if the Kamin-ians hadn't been even dumber than him?  

Random Kamin-ian: "Hi, we'd like to give you a Clone Army."
Obi-Wan: "Oh.  Well, yes, I would like that, I guess.  Um...."
Random Kamin-ian: "Yes?"
Obi-Wan: "About the Clone Army....do you mind telling me who I am picking it up for?"
Random Kamin-ian: "Sure, we'll tell you.  Your odd behavior has not aroused our suspicions at all."

In any sensible world, this is what should have happened:

Random Kamin-ian: "Hi, you must be here to pick up the Clone Army.  Do you have your reciept?"
Obi-Wan: "Clone Army?  Reciept?  I don't know what you are talking about."
Random Kamin-ian: "Guards.  Have this man killed."

Of course, the same thing should have happened on Geonosis too.  Christopher Lee should know how dangerous Obi-Wan is, but he falls victim to the old "sharks with laser-beams" villian trap.  "I won't kill you, I'll put you in an arena to be killed, despite the fact I know you are a powerful Jedi."  I could forgive that if there was any reason for there to be an arena on Geonosis (can you imagine Dooky's reputation in the rest of the Republic if he's running a gladatorial arena?) or if I thought that Dooku wanted to make a big public spectacle of killing his foes ("Oh, I'm sure no-one will ever find out that I've had ex-Queen Amidala killed in an arena...") rather than just doing it quietly like he should.  

All of this is stuff that makes no sense, but GL felt it would make a great spectacle so, plot be damned, let there be a gladatorial game on Geonosis.  But that's my compaint about EpI & EpII; all spectacle and no sense.

Tangent3: I voted that the movies never should have been made, thinking that someone else could have eventually done them better if GL had left the whole thing alone.  But really thats too harsh; I've gotten at least $18 worth of fun ripping on these two movies.  Even if it hurt to sit through them.  ;-)


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## John Crichton (Jan 9, 2004)

Gizzard said:
			
		

> Still, look at this investigation sequence. Obi-Wan as a character is just all over the map. Is Obi-Wan really supposed to be dense or is scene in Yoda's classroom just something that GL randomly threw into the movie. Look, children tell Obi-Wan what is obvious to the audience -- that the planet Kamino is not really missing! Uh, OK. Did Obi-Wan really not think of this on the way over from the library?



You are taking it too literally, I think. Obi-wan knows that it is not really missing. But he has full faith in the Jedi archives and the knowledge there. When he goes to Yoda, he is simply looking for validation from a friend and mentor for something that is unthinkable up to this point: the Jedi are wrong and their records either flawed or tampered with. 


			
				Gizzard said:
			
		

> The more I think about this, the more I think I am on to something. GL intends Obi-Wan to come across as dim. Would he have even gotten off of Kamino if the Kamin-ians hadn't been even dumber than him?
> 
> Random Kamin-ian: "Hi, we'd like to give you a Clone Army."
> Obi-Wan: "Oh. Well, yes, I would like that, I guess. Um...."
> ...



That was maybe in your script. You seem to have no idea what these _aliens_ think like. They are in it for the business (read: money) as established by the diner scene back on Coruscant. A member of the organization that has placed an order has shown up after a delay to pick up an order. They have already paid and everyone in the galaxy knows who the Jedi are.

Makes sense to me.



			
				Gizzard said:
			
		

> Of course, the same thing should have happened on Geonosis too. Christopher Lee should know how dangerous Obi-Wan is, but he falls victim to the old "sharks with laser-beams" villian trap. "I won't kill you, I'll put you in an arena to be killed, despite the fact I know you are a powerful Jedi." I could forgive that if there was any reason for there to be an arena on Geonosis (can you imagine Dooky's reputation in the rest of the Republic if he's running a gladatorial arena?) or if I thought that Dooku wanted to make a big public spectacle of killing his foes ("Oh, I'm sure no-one will ever find out that I've had ex-Queen Amidala killed in an arena...") rather than just doing it quietly like he should.
> 
> All of this is stuff that makes no sense, but GL felt it would make a great spectacle so, plot be damned, let there be a gladatorial game on Geonosis. But that's my compaint about EpI & EpII; all spectacle and no sense.



Dooku is not the leader of that planet. He has some power as a diplomat but not total power. The arena was obviously there for the natural inhabitants. In exchange for their loyalty, Dooku has to honor their customs. They put prisoners in the arena to be slaughtered for public spectical which is not so foreign a concept. They were killing people who had commited crimes which seemed to me to be a pretty easy way for them to have some fun. If your culture/planet has a big-ass arena you'd think they would use it from time to time. Dooku only got involved when things got out of hand and the Jedi showed up and barely, even then.  The Trade Federation Trade Viceroy was there and wanted Padme and the rest dead, they controlled the droids.

And yes, it does make a good spectical but it wasn't there for no reason. If it was some tiny, enclosed arena with Dooku watching and giggling like an idiot in the corner by himself, then I would say it was stupid.

Or maybe, you just didn't get it. But it's all good. Different strokes for different folks. Maybe you didn't want to get it. I've been there.


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## jdavis (Jan 9, 2004)

I bought into Obi Wan having a hard time believing somebody had changed the archive records, they made a big point of showing that this was a absolutly foriegn prospect to them and the librarian actually believed that it was imposible. Obi Wan's question for Yoda wasn't where is the Planet, it was why is it not in the archives.

The best part of the movie is on Kamino, that's the part I really loved the most, it was classic leading questions and playing on the fact that the kaminoians were hearing what they wanted and expected to hear (not to mention he was probably using the force to smooth things out too). Why would they of had him killed for any reason, that would be like you going to a car lot and somebody saying here's your car it's already paid for and you saying but I didn't buy a car and them saying oh well I'll have to kill you then. They had no clue what the army was for or what was going on in the galaxy they were just trying to deliver a prepaid for product to the Jedi order who they believed had ordered it. This is one of the tightest points in either of the two movies, the jedi were manipulated into going there and picking up a army the Kaminians were manipulated into building thinking they were for the Jedi so it would all be ready at the exact time there was a Galactic rebellion. I think you missed the point that the Kaminoians were not bad guys or in on what was going on, they were just being manipulated to insure a army was ready for Palpatine so he could manuver a civil war into happening so he could become a dictator. They were just pawns in all this.

As far as Dooku not killing Obi Wan well of course he didn't he wasn't ready to reveal himself as a Sith Lord yet. Better to let the stupid bug people do it so he could claim he had tried to stop them. Look I hated the bug people and I disliked the arena scene but it did make sense the way it played out. I mean it was all manipulated to put pieces in certain positions at certain times, Dooku wasn't on the other side he was manipulating them into starting the war Palpatine wanted he was on his own side. Dooku wasn't the leader of the bug people he was the person who was inciting the separtist movement, All he had to do to clear himself of any wrongdoing in Amadala's execution was to say "it wasn't my fault, it was the bug people I tried to stop them". Also you have to wonder if the whole big public execution thing was just a elaborate trap to draw the jedi into, I mean it obviously was but maybe it was all planned to be that way. Heck just like the huge battle on Geonosis wasn't meaningless it was the culmination of a carefully laid trap by the Sith Lords over a ten year period. Every single little thing that happened happened by Palpatine's design (remember he can see the future too, that goes back to Empire and Jedi). Everything happened according to his design, he manipulated both sides into a war for the sole purpose of him becoming a dictator and you don't really think the separatist were ever a real threat, it was a war he designed that he knew he could win for the express purpose of eliminating the Jedi order. Heck even the Death Star thing, Dooku manipulated the Geonoshians into designing it and then stole the plans and took them to Palpatine, there was never any way that Palpatine or Dooku would of let the Geonoshians build a Death Star, Palpatine wanted the Republic to win in the end, that's how the empire was formed. Heck Dooku acting all upset about the big attack was just a act, it's what he had been working to see happen, he had planned out everything including his escape route, I mean do you think Palpatine was unaware of the impending attack on Geonosis or the Jedi order leaving to rescue Obi Wan? How hard would it of been for him to call his student and tell him to be ready. Let me reiterate, _The whole thing was a big giant set up, every little detail was planned by Palpatine_ (maybe even what happened to Anikin on Tatooine). He can see the future and his student is running the other side, it's all a big set up that worked to perfection. As much as I fault the movies I did get what was going on and how it tied into what happened in Jedi.


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## Tom Cashel (Jan 9, 2004)

To add a little bit, Obi-Wan's arrogance and not-insignificant amount of denseness are well-established in the OT, as well as the prequels.

Or did you imagine that the Jedi who inadvertently brought about the DARTH VADER scenario (through a combination of action, inaction, and unwillingness to see what is right in front of his eyes), then lied to Luke about it for years, was a character without *flaws*?


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## Henry (Jan 9, 2004)

I gotta agree with Tom, J, and John. OBi-Wan is a little on the impetuous and dense side, and it wouldn't take much for a skilled Sith like Palpatine to lead him like a puppy on a leash. I do think it was a good stroke of luck on Palpatine's part that Obi-Wan was the one chosen to train anakin. He had JUST become a knight himself, and wasn't ready to take on a "paige" (padawan) yet.

Bad as it was, it was internally consistent. screw-ups very similar to it happen in the real world all the time.


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## KidCthulhu (Jan 9, 2004)

Tom Cashel said:
			
		

> To add a little bit, Obi-Wan's arrogance and not-insignificant amount of denseness are well-established in the OT, as well as the prequels.
> 
> Or did you imagine that the Jedi who inadvertently brought about the DARTH VADER scenario (through a combination of action, inaction, and unwillingness to see what is right in front of his eyes), then lied to Luke about it for years, was a character without *flaws*?




No, I agree with you that Obi-Wan is a character with flaws.  I just don't buy that the inconsistent logic and general plot holes were deliberately created by Lucas as part of a subtle and delicate screenplay.  I am not willing to give him half that much credit.

I'd be thrilled with a character depiction like that, if I thought it was deliberate.  I think MacGregor is working his ass off to give us the impression that all of this comes from inside who Obi-Wan is.  I don't think the script or the direction is behind it, though.  Ewan's just a damn good actor doing his best with dreck.


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## buzzard (Jan 9, 2004)

I wouldn't dispute that the plot is nicely twisted. I've never had much of a problem with the plot of the prequels. The abysmal acting, dialog, and direction are what makes them unbearable to watch. 

buzzard


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Jan 9, 2004)

Ewen nails Obi-Wan perfectly IMO.  I think he's great in AoTC and TPM myself.  

I'm going to have to re-watch it tonight.


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## TiQuinn (Jan 9, 2004)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> The battle scenes that accompanied Anakin and Obi-wan's persuit showed the prowess of the clone army and the leadership ability of Yoda and Windu.  I'll admit they were there for some eye-candy as well.  However, those scenes didn't mean nothing.  There was the tension of stopping the ships from getting into orbit which was important to the battle.  If those ships are all grounded (in addition to Dooku being captured) the war never begins.




Wow, you got all that from the movie?  For me, there's just nothing there in the plot.  The plot is completely incidental and didn't make a whole lot of sense:  

An army of Jango Fett clones are supposedly being made for the Senate.  

Jango Fett works for Count Dooku who is the head of a rebellion.  

Yoda suddenly appears at the end with the clone army in tow.  

Huh??  Jango Fett is the "Bad" guy, Yoda.  The Bad Guy, remember?  Why are you showing up with a bunch of his clones?


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## TiQuinn (Jan 9, 2004)

jdavis said:
			
		

> Let me reiterate, _The whole thing was a big giant set up, every little detail was planned by Palpatine_ (maybe even what happened to Anikin on Tatooine). He can see the future and his student is running the other side, it's all a big set up that worked to perfection. As much as I fault the movies I did get what was going on and how it tied into what happened in Jedi.




You're describing an awesome sounding movie, but unfortunately none of that carried over in Attack of the Clones.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Jan 9, 2004)

TiQuinn said:
			
		

> Wow, you got all that from the movie?  For me, there's just nothing there in the plot.  The plot is completely incidental and didn't make a whole lot of sense:
> 
> An army of Jango Fett clones are supposedly being made for the Senate.
> 
> ...




Becuase beyond Jango's genetic material they are not like Jango at all.  They are "programmed" to follow thier buyer, in this case the senate and the jedi order.  Why not use them?  They aren't evil like Jango, just drones who fight well and obey orders.  Too bad that's part of the head of the government's plan to gain a force of drones who will follow his orders to the death and enable him to become Emperor of the known universe.  But at the time Yoda needed a force to battle the droid army that was overwhelming the Jedi. 

I had no problem with it.


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## The Mirrorball Man (Jan 9, 2004)

TiQuinn said:
			
		

> Huh??  Jango Fett is the "Bad" guy, Yoda.  The Bad Guy, remember?  Why are you showing up with a bunch of his clones?



Because if he hadn't, all the Jedi would have been killed.


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## TiQuinn (Jan 9, 2004)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> Becuase beyond Jango's genetic material they are not like Jango at all.  They are "programmed" to follow thier buyer, in this case the senate and the jedi order.  Why not use them?  They aren't evil like Jango, just drones who fight well and obey orders.  Too bad that's part of the head of the government's plan to gain a force of drones who will follow his orders to the death and enable him to become Emperor of the known universe.  But at the time Yoda needed a force to battle the droid army that was overwhelming the Jedi.
> 
> I had no problem with it.




Yoda leading a massive army supposedly for the Senate yet has been cloned from the DNA of an assassin who is in league with the head of the rebellion, and you don't see that as a plot hole big enough to pilot the Death Star through?


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## TiQuinn (Jan 9, 2004)

The Mirrorball Man said:
			
		

> Because if he hadn't, all the Jedi would have been killed.




And if George hadn't lost his mind while writing the story, they wouldn't have been in that position to begin with.

I mean, that's what killing me....you guys make a heck of a lot more sense!  I wish you were writing the script because you probably would've explained all this a lot better than the movie does!  None of this "wheels within wheels" plot plays out well in the movie.


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## TiQuinn (Jan 9, 2004)

DP.


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## The Mirrorball Man (Jan 9, 2004)

TiQuinn said:
			
		

> Yoda leading a massive army supposedly for the Senate yet has been cloned from the DNA of an assassin who is in league with the head of the rebellion, and you don't see that as a plot hole big enough to pilot the Death Star through?



Nazi Engineer Wernher von Braun was the chief architect of the American Saturn V rocket. Was that a plot hole too?


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## buzzard (Jan 9, 2004)

TiQuinn said:
			
		

> Yoda leading a massive army supposedly for the Senate yet has been cloned from the DNA of an assassin who is in league with the head of the rebellion, and you don't see that as a plot hole big enough to pilot the Death Star through?




Actually I believe that Yoda merely understands that the army is a tool no more evil or good than the person who controls it. 

How did I end up defending a movie I despise?


buzzard


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## TiQuinn (Jan 9, 2004)

The Mirrorball Man said:
			
		

> Nazi Engineer Wernher von Braun was the chief architect of the American Saturn V rocket. Was that a plot hole too?




Massive plot hole!


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Jan 9, 2004)

*Shrug*

I've enjoyed the prequels thus far.  I think they're shallower than the originals, lacking the depth, polish, and sense of epic that the originals had.  But I'm reserving final judgment until after the third movie.  Judging on two-thirds of a story is like judging the Lord of the Rings by the first two volumes.

Unfortunately, I don't hold much hope that EP3 will redeem the plot failings of the first two (and of course it's too late to do anything about the acting or take back characters like Jar Jar).  But I want to see the third film before I condemn the entire exercise.

Edit: Realized the original question was "Are you glad the prequels were even made?"  I always did want to know what the back story was, and since know we (almost) know, I guess this falls into the category of: be careful what you ask for, you might get it.  I'm glad I got the back story; I'm just not completely satisfied with what that backstory is thus far.


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## John Crichton (Jan 9, 2004)

TiQuinn said:
			
		

> Wow, you got all that from the movie? For me, there's just nothing there in the plot. The plot is completely incidental and didn't make a whole lot of sense:
> 
> An army of Jango Fett clones are supposedly being made for the Senate.
> 
> ...



Others have already defended my point for me but I'll reply anyway.  

A plot in a major movie being _incidental_??  As in he didn't mean for it to come out this way?  C'mon, man.  He's been working on these things for over 20 years.  Sure, not every tiny thing has been planned out but the overall plot has been there for some time.  The Palpatine character is one of the best all-time screen villains and he is because of his grand plan and ability to take advantage of situations.  These situations have been woven into the plot.  For example, Jar Jar being there may have been there for the kiddies but he also has a greater purpose that has been there all along.

As for your "plot hole," it seems like you are looking for one or possibly thinking too hard.    The cloners are the best at what they do, the clones have been made with a purpose and the Jedi really had no choice but to use them. The Jedi aren't pushovers, they have just gotten in way over their heads.  Hence, having to use the clone army.  The Clone army is in place because of a dead master, who will probably turn out to be Sideous.  We all know the council will fall and all but 2 of these Jedi will be killed.  This is how.

Star Wars plots have never been to tough to decipher, you just have to sit back and let them come.  I've always thought that one of the stronger aspects of all the movies have been that they work on a few levels and there is alot going on in many of the scenes that take multiple viewings to get.  Same technique was used in Citizen Kane, which is why you can rewatch it an almost get a different view of the entire film.


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## jdavis (Jan 9, 2004)

TiQuinn said:
			
		

> Yoda leading a massive army supposedly for the Senate yet has been cloned from the DNA of an assassin who is in league with the head of the rebellion, and you don't see that as a plot hole big enough to pilot the Death Star through?



Yoda is leading a massive army of preprogrammed clones who have been genetically engineered to be compliant and follow orders, all that Jango Fett supplied was a template for the bodies, the brains have been altered to make them into good little soldiers instead of greedy little bounty hunters. This was spelled out in the movie. Look I'll step through it nice and easy: Palpatine uses the Trade Federation to attack Naboo to raise sympathy for himself so he can become Channcellor. The Trade Federation feels it was betrayed by this Darth Sidious person (who is secretly Palpatine) and thus the seed for the sepratist move is planted way back in Phantom Menace. During the interlude between movies Darth Sidious gets a new student Count Dooku (secretly Darth Tyrannus) and he sets out to get a clone army made that will take 10 years to be ready. Then the bit that seems to be bothering you here, Count Dooku (as Tyrannus) hires Jango Fett to be the template for the clone army being made for his master Palpatine to fight in a war ten years in the future. Palpatine was stuck in the capital so it was probably Dooku who pretended to be Master Siphadeos (or howere you spell it), See Dooku created both armies. Plot hole??? This is really tight stuff here, who else would be the template for a army for Darth Sidious than somebody hired by his student Darth Tyrannus? See the sith lords are working in secret and the movie is being filmed like we don't know Palpatine and Sidious are the same person, but due to the fact that I have seen Return of the Jedi I know how it all turns out. Palpatine is secretly a Dark Lord of the Sith who secretly overthrows the Republic from within over a 30 year arc. He hasn't revealed himself to be Palpatine yet, nobody knows. Count Dooku wasn't trying to overthrow the Republic he was setting up a bunch of greedy and unhappy planets as a military thread so that he could be granted unilateral power (which is exactly what happened when he manipulated the retarded Jar Jar into basically destroying the Galactic Senate). Palpatine needs a war so he doesn't have to relinquish the powers given to him by the senate till he is strong enough to disband them (happened off screen at the first of Star Wars). He is also trying to kill every last Jedi out there (except Annikin, you mean you didn't noticed that Dooku force pushed Annikin away after chopped his arm off instead of just killing him where he stood.) and the clone war is a good way to do it (in the next movie all the Jedi except Obi Wan and Yoda die, hope I didn't spoil anything for you). Here is another one you might of missed, the clone troopers and the Stormtroopers are the exact same thing, see the costumes are a little different but they are the exact same thing, stormtroopers have always been clones it was implied in the first set of movies. This is the army of the Empire, Yoda isn't leading it in the Senates name he is leading it in Chanellor Palpatine's name (remember Palpatine took over emergency power, the senate has no power to order anything anymore). See Palpatine and Dooku are in league with each other (wasn't that obvious? they came out and said Dooku was Tyrannus student of Sidious and even showed them together in the end) and the whole Clone war was a big set up, one was leading the Republic and one was leading the separitist. Dooku was the person who had both armies created (I mean come on Jango Fett was the template for the clones, doesn't that make it obvious that Dooku was behind their creation, they even told you Dooku was Tyrannus, this is spelled out in the movie.) Now why did Yoda fall into the trap? Well tehy spelled that one out too, Yoda and Mace had a big conversation about how their ability to see the future witht he force was waning, why was it waning? Well it's because Palpatine was a Dark Lord of the Sith who had emense power who was manipulating them from the start. I mean come on we know how things turn out here, all the Jedi die and the Republic becomes the empire and Annikin Skywalker becomes Darth Vader (which means that Dooku has to die in the next movie because it was stated in Phantom Menace that there could be only two Sith Lords, which also goes back to Jedi where the Emperor told Luke to kill Vader and take his place). The big hope for the good guys is that Obi Wan is able to escape with Annikin's twin children without Vader or Palpatine knowing they existed, those children have three freaking movies about them already made. 

Ok lets go back to your plot hole to wrap all this up. Yes Yoda is leading a massive clone army for the Republic lead by Palpatine, who is secretly Darth Sidious, to go fight against the Separitist leader Count Dooku, who is secretly Darth Tyrannis, who's minion is Jango Fett who was the template for the clones, gee it all makes perfect sense to me, no wonder you didn't like the movies you completly missed the whole freaking plot and thought it was a plot hole. It was all a big setup, Palpatine was pulling the strings for both sides here. The fact that Count Dooku was Darth Tyrannus was a secret (the Trade Federation was trying to separate because they thought that Darth Sidious who betrayed them in Phantom Menace was secretly running the Republic....... Well he was as it turns out, they would never of followed Dooku if they new he was Darth Tyrannus, even Dooku uses this misdirection on Obi Wan when he temps him to join the separitist). The whole plot of Attack of the Clones is about how Palpatine manipulated everybody into a war so he could gain absolute power. In Return of the Jedi they go into how Palpatine is a master stratigist witht he power to forsee the future and how he controls the galaxy with guile and misdirection. This is the story of how he used guile and misdirection to overthrow the Republic and eliminate all the Jedi. This storyline has been in the making since 1976, this isn't something Lucas threw together at the last minute, there are no random happenings in any of the 5 and soon to be 6 Star Wars movies, this story arc has been over 20 years in the making, this story is tight and well thought out. The problem here is that all these characters say the stupidest things and are put in awkward situations. It's the details that are killing Star Wars, it's the way the characters are being presented not the story of the Galaxy that is at fault.

Look I'm not making this stuff up or talking out my ass here this is how it is written, it is shot for a big suprise ending where Palpatine is revealed to be Darth Sidious so he doesn't spell everything out, but who Palpatine is isn't really a secret here now is it, this is one of my favorite parts of the crappy movies, it's where I can see the diamond they could of been, he shoots these movies as if people never saw the others because those movies are in the future of this timeline. The identity of Palpatine is kept secret in the movies even though it's common knowledge for the people watching. Everything that has happened in all the new movies will be revealed to be Palpatine's master plan in the next movie, but we already know that because we have seen the first three movies. It's a tremendously deep and well woven tapestry of a plot, and it is one of the best storylines ever written, just becasue the movies are sub par doesn't mean the story they are based on is.

Huge spoiler for next movie



Spoiler



leaked storyline fromt he next movie is that Palpatine uses the force to cause the clones to turn on the jedi and kill them at the end of the clone wars, see the clones were created so they could be easily manipulated by Palpatine, so them being clones of Jango Fett was most definatly not a accident or a plot hole


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## myrdden (Jan 9, 2004)

Holy text-block jdavis!

Good summary of the plot though.  I completely agree that the plot of the movies is very solid and well thought out, but the details (and somethimes the execution) are hurting them.

I'm glad they were made, but a bit dissatisifed with the results.

Myrdden


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## John Crichton (Jan 9, 2004)

myrdden said:
			
		

> Holy text-block jdavis!



Yeah, well done on the plot breakdown but I needed to wipe the blood out of my eyes a few times.  

Also, thank you for blocking out the Ep.3 spoiler.  I am avoiding all knowledge of the plot for it.


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## TiQuinn (Jan 9, 2004)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> Others have already defended my point for me but I'll reply anyway.
> 
> A plot in a major movie being _incidental_??  As in he didn't mean for it to come out this way?  C'mon, man.  He's been working on these things for over 20 years.  Sure, not every tiny thing has been planned out but the overall plot has been there for some time.  The Palpatine character is one of the best all-time screen villains and he is because of his grand plan and ability to take advantage of situations.  These situations have been woven into the plot.  For example, Jar Jar being there may have been there for the kiddies but he also has a greater purpose that has been there all along.




I don't buy the George Lucas has had this in an outline in his desk drawer for the past 20 years.  Yes, the plot is incidental.  It makes little sense, and is very underwhelming.  If this is what he's been concocting for the past two decades, he's an even worse storyteller than I imagined.  Palpatine isn't a great screen villain.  The Emperor in full regalia was.  Darth Vader was a great screen villain.  This time around, he has little screen presence.  It's very easy to forget that he's pulling the strings from behind the curtains, and in this kind of movie, that's a bad, bad thing.


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## TiQuinn (Jan 9, 2004)

I agree with a lot of what you said, jdavis.  But I think you're doing all the work for Lucas in this case.   

My point is, none of this is coming through in the movies.  This grand plot that you've described.  What you are telling me and what I'm seeing on the screen are two different things.


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## Gizzard (Jan 9, 2004)

> The best part of the movie is on Kamino, that's the part I really loved the most, it was classic leading questions and playing on the fact that the kaminoians were hearing what they wanted and expected to hear (not to mention he was probably using the force to smooth things out too). Why would they of had him killed for any reason, that would be like you going to a car lot and somebody saying here's your car it's already paid for and you saying but I didn't buy a car and them saying oh well I'll have to kill you then. They had no clue what the army was for or what was going on in the galaxy they were just trying to deliver a prepaid for product to the Jedi order who they believed had ordered it.




Going back to this thing, I phrased the dialogue like a joke but don't think I missed the plot point.  

Obi-Wan is not picking up a load of groceries, or even a car; he's picking up a million man clone army.  Do the Kaminians really not have any security system, not even a stupid paper reciept?  Or did the person who ordered the clone army really just say "Any Jedi can pick this army up when they are ready"??  That's nuts.  The Kaminians are arms dealers pure and simple; that's a dangerous occupation and I don't see how they lasted long enough to build a huge clone army if they have crappy security.  

Maybe my problem is that I've overestimated how powerful a million man clone army is.  I imagined that it's probably the most significant fighting force in the galaxy at that time.  (This leads to me being amazed that no one can figure out who ordered the clone army.  Come on, it's a huge economic investment.  There are a handful of of people who have the economic clout to have ordered it and even fewer who could prepay for it.  Make a list and start checking off names, it won't take you long.)  (It also leads to me calling the Kaminians dumb.  I mean who makes the most potent weapon in the galaxy and then sells it to someone without having any idea what they are going to use it for.  Didn't they see "The Terminator"?  Gun Shop Owner: "Hey, you can't do that!"  Arnold: "Wrong.")  

Anyway, you can screw around with the plot and make up convoluted reasons why it still makes sense (for some good laughs, check out David Brin's articles on the subject here http://www.davidbrin.com/starwarsarticle1.html ) but I have to agree with KidCuthuhu, who said it so much more pithily than I did:



> I just don't buy that the inconsistent logic and general plot holes were deliberately created by Lucas as part of a subtle and delicate screenplay.




Exactly so.


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## Darrin Drader (Jan 10, 2004)

TiQuinn said:
			
		

> I agree with a lot of what you said, jdavis.  But I think you're doing all the work for Lucas in this case.
> 
> My point is, none of this is coming through in the movies.  This grand plot that you've described.  What you are telling me and what I'm seeing on the screen are two different things.




Of course none of this is coming through in the movies. If he tied everything together in episode II, there would be little point to episode III. That's why its called a trilogy. Episode II creates a mystery (granted, anyone capable of following the bouncing ball can piece it together without episode III), but the exposition you seem to think is lacking will happen in episode III. If you haven't put it together with the clues you've already been given then Lucas is succeeding beyond anyone's wildest dreams.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Jan 10, 2004)

Thanks for the Brin article; interesting stuff.

Aside: his discussion of the Campbellian storytelling technique immediately reminded me not only of a host of sci-fi, fantasy, and historical fiction, but also explains the success of the _Baldur's Gate_ computer game series: 



> In these classic tales, the hero begins reluctant, yet signs and portents foretell his pre-ordained greatness. He receives dire warnings and sage wisdom from a mentor, acquires quirky-but-faithful companions, faces a series of steepening crises, explores the pit of his own fears and emerges triumphant to bring some boon/talisman/victory home to his admiring tribe/people/nation.




Now if only I coud pull that off with a D&D campaign without making one of the players out as the DM's pet with everyone else his sidekicks ...


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## TiQuinn (Jan 10, 2004)

Sorry, I think you're giving Lucas way too much credit.  He's made two bad movies, and I don't believe it's all part of a grand design on his part, and that he's going to knock it out of the park in the next film.


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## Darrin Drader (Jan 10, 2004)

TiQuinn said:
			
		

> Sorry, I think you're giving Lucas way too much credit.  He's made two bad movies, and I don't believe it's all part of a grand design on his part, and that he's going to knock it out of the park in the next film.




If by bad movies, you mean bad dialog, wooden acting, and some scenes that were just lame (pod racing, IMO), then I would agree that they don't measure up. If you mean that JDavis' text block from hell explanation doesn't summarize the plot, then I think you'll be surprised. Since we have episodes IV - VI we know that most of what he said is absolutely true, and the rest of it only makes sense, if everything is taken in context.


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## jdavis (Jan 10, 2004)

Gizzard said:
			
		

> Going back to this thing, I phrased the dialogue like a joke but don't think I missed the plot point.
> 
> Obi-Wan is not picking up a load of groceries, or even a car; he's picking up a million man clone army. Do the Kaminians really not have any security system, not even a stupid paper reciept? Or did the person who ordered the clone army really just say "Any Jedi can pick this army up when they are ready"?? That's nuts. The Kaminians are arms dealers pure and simple; that's a dangerous occupation and I don't see how they lasted long enough to build a huge clone army if they have crappy security.
> 
> ...



I'm not screwing around with  he plot I'm just telling you what it really is. This isn't my interpretation it's what is going on. This is the plot of the movies. There are a million different worlds out there and more people and races than you can even count, I thought it was a 100,000 man army myself but even at 1 million it wasn't all that (There are droid armies out there with 10 times that number). Heck even when you just compare it to Earth, the Russians lost 500,000 troops in the battle of Stalingrad. 1 million troops on a Galactic scale is a freaking personal guard (US armed Forces run about 1.4 million active duty troops), it wouldn't even cost all that when say compared to the upkeep of a million worlds, You have a massive beurocracy here, I mean it's a galactic massive one, do you know how easy it would be for the Channellor to slip a little out here and there, we can't keep up it one countries spending in the US how could anybody keep up with the spending of a million planets? Off the top of your head name every town in the world with more than 500 people.... Ok go to the library and do a days research and then name them...... You can't, Well that's not a drop in the bucket compared to a million planets full of people. You are missing the scale here, You could loose a million person clone army and forget where you placed it as easy as forgetting where you parked your car at the mall. Besides in the old Republic nobody would pretend to be a Jedi, they got a order from the Jedi council were expecting a Jedi and a Jedi showed up, it would be unheard of to ever doubt the word of a Jedi that he was in fact a Jedi, it was the fact that for tens of thousands of years people trusted that the Jedi were the Jedi that allowed Palpatine to manuver the way he did, nobody would ever expect somebody who was not a Jedi to say they were. Once again there is the scale thing to look at, Yoda was 800 years old, that would put him at being born around the time of the Norman invasion of England. Jedi had been Jedi for so long that people would even have a hard time finding reference to a time before the Jedi in a library, this isn't a old system of government it's a system of government that goes back longer than all of Earth's recorded history. To 99% of the population attacking a Jedi was tatamount to suicide (as they portrayed it at the first of Phantom Menace). The Kaminoans were honored to do buisness with the Jedi, they were a isolationist society on the outer rim who probably had very little contact with Jedi and mostly knew them through legend, they expected a Jedi to come check on the army, and a Jedi came to check on the army (gee wonder if that was a set up too), Then shortly after that the 800 year old Jedi Master Yoda (do you think they questioned Yoda?) showed up and picked up the army (Obi Wan didn't pick up the army he just looked at it). These people are cloners not arms dealers, heck they were all clones themselves, they probably did a lot of different types of clones and most likely did buisness with a wide variety of characters, and it wasn't in their nature to mistrust a Jedi, that was unheard of. The story isn't perfect but come on do you think it was a written to be a big coincidence? I'm not making excuses or twisting things for reasons, I am giving a plot synopsis of what the story was. It's a fact it was written to work the way it worked yes there may be some loopholes (every movie ever made has some) but this is the storyline it was all set up by Palpatine in advance the whole thing was a trap he designed. The galaxy is huge there are near infinite people out there, that is the context the story is set in, you can't use real world context for it.

(I gave up on the link half way down the page, the guy has a personal agenda and is all over the place.)


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## Mark (Jan 10, 2004)

TiQuinn said:
			
		

> Sorry, I think you're giving Lucas way too much credit.  He's made two bad movies...




Only two...?


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## barsoomcore (Jan 10, 2004)

TiQuinn said:
			
		

> He's made two bad movies...



Somewhere, there is a DVD of _Howard the Duck_ you have yet to encounter...


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## jdavis (Jan 10, 2004)

TiQuinn said:
			
		

> Sorry, I think you're giving Lucas way too much credit. He's made two bad movies, and I don't believe it's all part of a grand design on his part, and that he's going to knock it out of the park in the next film.



You do realize he's made a lot more than the Star Wars movies don't you..... You do realize he's one of the most sucessful people in the film industy ever don't you. I mean come on I don't even care for the prequel movies myself but come on you got to give him a little credit here (the storylines for the Indiana Jones movies were his too, he's not a moron). It's not some grand design here, you have completly missed the obvious plot of the movies. whether the next movie is good or not remains to be seen but I can garantee it will be revealed that Palpatine was behind it all (I know this because I have seen freaking Star Wars, in the end of the next movie the bad guys win, oops maybe I should of put that in spoiler tags). I'm not giving Lucas too much credit I'm telling what the plot was, Lucas blew it with his silly little diner scenes and his horrible love story dialog and his love for clumsy digital characters. If you don't like the plot that's fine but it still is the plot of the movie. This isn't my interpretation of it, it's the plot of the movie, it was all set up by Palpatine, it's the plot of both movies. Yes it's not perfect but it is the storyline, I'm just explaining it. The story would probably work better if the first three did not exist yet and they were all in order, but he's shooting the movies to be watched in order so he's not giving away the obvious Palpatine/Sidious connection (it wouldn't be as obvious if the first three Star Wars movies didn't exist but I'm sure he would of shot it to be even more of a mystery in that case). And Yes the outline for these three movies has existed since 1976 (along with the outline for three more after Jedi), that's pretty common knowledge among even casual Star Wars fans. Lucas planned for a 9 movie arc but technology wouldn't let him pull it off then. Star Wars was pulled out of the middle of his story arc (that's why it's called episode 4 even in the original). It's all the same storyline from Phantom Menace through three movie after Jedi which will probably never be made, it's only the details Lucas added when he wrote these scripts the story outline already existed, and it's in the details where the movies fall flat.


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## jdavis (Jan 10, 2004)

Mark said:
			
		

> Only two...?



Oh Lucas is responsible for a world of bad out there: http://us.imdb.com/name/nm0000184/


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## BrooklynKnight (Jan 10, 2004)

As big and comrehensive starwars fan I am, I feel i should say something....but most of it has already been said bu John and Darrin...

The movies are not what they could have been. The FX was better. Personally i would have perefered models to retain the mechanical artifical feel of the ships but thats ok. 

The thing that disturbs me most about the movies is the ignoration of continutity.

(Tangent, On the starwars site continuity and cannon have been seperated. The books are Continuity, officially. The movies are cannon, officially.)

The movies "break" continutty that was established in books. Bevil Lemensk (i spell his name wrong) designed the deathstar. Boba Fett was a swoop pilot security guard turned bounty hunter, not a clone. It was rumored (i forget which book) that Owen Lars was Obiwans Brother.

Thats what annoys me most about the movies. Lucas decided to screw the 15 some years of novelizations that helped a rich universe grow and prosper to change things around.

The Outbound Flight Project and Jorrus Cboath hasnt even been mentioned though this is exactly the time period when it launches.

None of this is important really. The movies were "OK". Lucas is making them fit "his" vision and thats fine.

I'm glad they were made though I wish they would have been made better. I do hope to god he lets someone else direct 7-9 and that they get done at all.


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## BrooklynKnight (Jan 10, 2004)

jdavis said:
			
		

> Oh Lucas is responsible for a world of bad out there: http://us.imdb.com/name/nm0000184/





			
				imbd said:
			
		

> "This Is Your Life" (1955) playing "Himself" in episode: "Vic Armstrong" 26 June 2003
> "Just Shoot Me!" (1997) playing "Himself" in episode: "It's Raining Babies" (episode # 7.8) 7 January 2003
> "Troldspejlet" (1989) playing "Himself" in episode: "Bag Klonernes angreb" 19 May 2002
> "Conversations From the Edge with Carrie Fisher" (2002) playing "Himself" 2002
> ...



heh, they missed his appearance on an mtv show last year or something.


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## dpdx (Jan 10, 2004)

I voted Yes, but... something. Really, I'm hoping for the remake of 1 through 3, when Spielberg gets to make it right.

Episode 1 is an afterschool special, as far as I'm concerned.

Episode 2 was better, but still not great. The sad thing is, better writing and a longer plotline would have saved it. Based on Ep. 1, Episode 2 could have been as long as The Killing Fields and still not done everything it needed to do to set up Episode 3.

Lucas needs to stuff that monstrous ego in an escape pod, and let someone else write, direct, produce, and executive produce Ep. 3.


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## Gizzard (Jan 10, 2004)

Before I start again, I don't have any emotional attachement to these movies, but I do find it an interesting exercise to see if they make sense.  So, no hard feelings on my side, even if I may seem to be hammering at the EpI and EpII defenders.  Smiley face of conciliation -> 



> 1 million troops on a Galactic scale is a freaking personal guard (US armed Forces run about 1.4 million active duty troops)...




OK, then on the scale of power in the universe this Clone Army is equivalent to Palpatines personal guard?  So, if you look at the final battle, then the Jedi, the Clones and Dooku's forces are all meant to be roughly equal in combat power?  It's going to be a funny name for the war, calling it the "Clone Wars", when really its a skirmish between a handful of small private armies.  If you follow this theory too far, you'd expect the army of the Republic to have billions of soldiers and thus be make control of the Clone Army insignificant.  



> Besides in the old Republic nobody would pretend to be a Jedi, they got a order from the Jedi council were expecting a Jedi and a Jedi showed up...




So Palpatine delagates one of his Dark Jedi minions to go to Kamino and order a very small army cloned up for him.  But his instructions to the Kaminians are to give this army "to any Jedi", knowing full well that the good Jedi will discover this and take the army for themselves??  That seems like a stretch!

And, where do the Clones fit in if theres a giant Army of the Republic?  Palpatine could just give Yoda (or preferably someone lame, like Jar-Jar!) command of a few battle groups and send him off to fight ineffectively againt Dooku for a couple years.  The secret Clone Army seems like a pointless complication (but an opportunity for some cool CG.)  

I think GL just needed to move the plot along; he didn't worry about the logic of his characters.



> You have a massive beurocracy here, I mean it's a galactic massive one, do you know how easy it would be for the Channellor to slip a little out here and there, we can't keep up it one countries spending in the US how could anybody keep up with the spending of a million planets?




That's my point about the economics.  If we assume the army is big, there's only about twenty people in the Republic who can make this happen.  If we assume the Clone Army is small, the economics work but the logic doesn't - the Clones are too unimportant to be the pivot on which the galactic war rests.



> The story isn't perfect but come on do you think it was a written to be a big coincidence?




I think that Brin's explanation makes as much sense as GLs original plot.  And it's funnier.  ;-)  

Like I said, I don't think GL thought deeply about the continuity at all.  He had some ideas of cool scenes and he need to get certain plot points to happen.  As DMs I think we've all been in this boat.  You wave your hands, have the Kaminians present the clue - "Look, the Clone Army" - and hope your players don't think hard about how it all fits together.  But in this case I think I can see the stitches holding EpI and EpII together, and I am disappointed.

edit: oops, quotes got messed up.


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## EricNoah (Jan 10, 2004)

I'm certainly glad the prequels were and are being made.  However, I don't necessarily have a great attachment to them the way I do to the others, and I don't care what anyone says -- the acting in eps 1-3 was a good notch better than the acting in the prequels.  I would much rather see Mark Hamill over-acting a smidge but getting his fear and despair out there in the core of Cloud City than watch Lucas not even try to get emotions out of his actors in the big scenes where it really counts in the prequels.  The scene where Anakin's mother dies and he goes off on the Tuskens had the potential to be chilling; his confession to Padme equally so; and their love should have come off as forbidden fruit.  I didn't even come close to feeling it.  

And so of course I'm worried that in the final film of the prequel trilogy Lucas won't nail it when it counts, the biggest emotional climax potentially of the entire series.  I don't care about plot holes and so forth, I am very forgiving of that, but Peter Jackson has shown me that I can have my eye candy AND a little bit of acting on the same screen.  Maybe it's too much to ask for.


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## TiQuinn (Jan 10, 2004)

jdavis said:
			
		

> You do realize he's made a lot more than the Star Wars movies don't you..... You do realize he's one of the most sucessful people in the film industy ever don't you. I mean come on I don't even care for the prequel movies myself but come on you got to give him a little credit here (the storylines for the Indiana Jones movies were his too, he's not a moron). It's not some grand design here, you have completly missed the obvious plot of the movies.




First of all, Lucas' success in other films has been as a producer, first and foremost, not a writer or a director.  And second, I haven't missed anything about the plot.  You are missing my point.  Lucas' execution sucks.  The plot is muddled.  I know what is going to happen.  I know that the clones are the stormtroopers of tomorrow.  I know that Palpatine is actually Darth Sideous.  I know that this is all a setup to eliminate the Jedi.  The point is, without the original movies, this plot would NOT be obvious.  It would not be engrossing in any way, shape or form.  It wouldn't be some big conspiracy/mystery.  It just wouldn't make sense.  Without the prior knowledge of what is going to happen with Vader, Palpatine, and the destruction of the Jedi, this would be a big confusing mess.  That is my criticism.  The story only works because we know what happens in Star Wars, Empire, and Return of the Jedi.  These movies don't stand on their own.  They are crapola.


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## Kai Lord (Jan 10, 2004)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> I don't care about plot holes and so forth, I am very forgiving of that, but Peter Jackson has shown me that I can have my eye candy AND a little bit of acting on the same screen.  Maybe it's too much to ask for.



No, it really isn't too much to ask for.  I think part of it is a lack of faith by the actors in the quality of writing and the story and the other part of it has to do with the actors being asked to emote largely on all green sets in front of blank green walls.  Much harder to get the epic scope of the story when you're constantly reacting to nothing.

Another reason the acting is so "off" in places is revealed on the AOTC DVD.  If Lucas thought in some scenes Hayden Christiansen delivered a line better than Portman, and vice versa, he would later digitally splice what he considered the best two line deliveries into one scene to create a "super take" of the scene as he coined it.  The problem is you get a totally off-kilter chemistry because the actors aren't even reacting to what the other person is doing or saying, we're seeing them reacting to what the other actor did _three takes ago_ so even the one on one human interactions have an extra level of phoniness to them in a way that's completely unnecessary.

Its taking the gimmick of Forrest Gump's Tom Hanks/JFK splicing way too far and in scenes that are supposed to be intimate and emotional.  Just bad directing.


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## jdavis (Jan 10, 2004)

Gizzard said:
			
		

> Before I start again, I don't have any emotional attachement to these movies, but I do find it an interesting exercise to see if they make sense. So, no hard feelings on my side, even if I may seem to be hammering at the EpI and EpII defenders. Smiley face of conciliation ->



 'Eh it's just making my day off go by quicker. Trust me I don't take anything person around here, that's just not a good idea. I don't consider myself a episode 1 or episode 2 defender, heck I think they were piss poor myself, I just arguing the plotline.




> OK, then on the scale of power in the universe this Clone Army is equivalent to Palpatines personal guard? So, if you look at the final battle, then the Jedi, the Clones and Dooku's forces are all meant to be roughly equal in combat power? It's going to be a funny name for the war, calling it the "Clone Wars", when really its a skirmish between a handful of small private armies. If you follow this theory too far, you'd expect the army of the Republic to have billions of soldiers and thus be make control of the Clone Army insignificant.



 There isn't a Army of the Republic, that's a super huge giant point of contention for the whole darn thing, Amadala is fighting in the senate to stop the creation of a Army of the Republic. It's was spelled out within 10 minutes of the movie stating that there is no army of the Republic, they relied completly on the Jedi. As far as that not being a lot of clones, it was the first batch of them, now that they are in a war they will have to continue to order more of them. This wasn't just a skirmish, it was the first battle in a war that last several years (Did you not hear Yoda at the end saying that the Clone Wars have just begun.... Heck they even made a cartoon about it). It also forces the issue from a diplomatic negociation (which is what Amadala was wanting) to a actual declared war. Palpatine was given emergency power to create a army of the Republic (which will undoubtably be more than just clones, just as the Imperial army in Star Wars was more than just Stormtroopers). This move was to allow him to create a army, those clones weren't the army they were the start of the army, Palpatine makes the decisions where troops come from, it's pretty easy for him to say, well the clones worked good lets keep them comming and nobody is the wiser. If there was a army of the Republic to start with then the whole movie doesn't make sense, why would Amadala be leading a faction of senators who are trying to stop the creation of a Army of the Republic if one already existed? Why would the sepratist think they could pull away by using their military might? And why would Palpatine need the clones?




> So Palpatine delagates one of his Dark Jedi minions to go to Kamino and order a very small army cloned up for him. But his instructions to the Kaminians are to give this army "to any Jedi", knowing full well that the good Jedi will discover this and take the army for themselves?? That seems like a stretch!
> 
> And, where do the Clones fit in if theres a giant Army of the Republic? Palpatine could just give Yoda (or preferably someone lame, like Jar-Jar!) command of a few battle groups and send him off to fight ineffectively againt Dooku for a couple years. The secret Clone Army seems like a pointless complication (but an opportunity for some cool CG.)



Palpatine only had one dark Jedi minion (there is always only two sith lords) and it was Dooku. By reading what you wrote here I see that you have in fact completly missed the entire plot of the movie. The Kaminoans were instructed to make the army for the Jedi council, why because the Jedi work for the Chancellor, Yes yes yes the army was intended for the Jedi to have. That's the whole point here it was a set up, Palpatine put the Jedi in a position on Geonosis where they were forced to take this army of clones and go to war, there wasn't any other army available because there was no army of the Republic to do this. The Jedi didn't take the army for themselves they took them for the Republic, which Palpatine just managed to gain complete control over. The Jedi are not a independant organization, they are a subservient group to the Senate (controlled by Palpatine). If Palpatine was the President then Yoda would be nothing more than a high ranking General or maybe a minor staff member. This is a secret plot, Palpatine can't reveal himself as a Dark Lord of the Sith, the Jedi would destroy him, but he can manipulate himself to the top where he can secretly send them out to be killed in a bloody war. He tricked the Trade Federation into starting a separitist movement and starting a big crisis, he tricked the Senate to give him absolute power (funny that he had sent Amadala home and into hiding right before this vote came up, she was it's biggest opponent), he tricked the Jedi into going to Geonosis (and being slaughtered) and tricked Yoda into attacking Geonosis with the clones to rescue them thus starting the clone wars. There was no other army of the Republic, there were not enough Jedi to fight a war, heck until Yoda attacked Geonosis to rescue the Jedi, there was no war. He did all this while managing to look like he was actually against the war or the creation of a army himself. Did you not understand that he controlled the Republic the Jedi worked for? Heck he's the person who told the Jedi to let Obi Wan track down the assassin which lead them to Kamino, he knew Obi Wan would go there, he planned it, he knew Obi Wan would then go to Geonosis, he planned it. Did you not see all those scenes where he was telling the Jedi what to do in his chambers? He was leading them around by the nose. 

Maybe you fell asleep and missed some of the story or something ( I doze off during the Pod race in Phantom Menace every time myself). You have completly missed what was going on here. Palpatine manuvered the Jedi into a position where they would need a army, one he had prepared 10 years earlier to be waiting for them at this time. Why so they would start a war with the separitist movement he also created 10 years ago. How can he do this, well he can see the future so that really helps, it also helps the Republic was in decline to start with. WHy does he do this? This war allows him to kill off Jedi without being discovered (people die in a war a good portion of the Jedi were killed off on Geonosis right off the bat), consolodate his power over the Repbulic, he will be a war hero when they win, (the Senate was a beurocratic mess, but he saved the Republic) and gain the army he will need to rule once the Jedi are gone. Then when he is ready he pulls the old Julius Ceaser and declares himself Emperor and disbands the Senate. This isn't speculation here it's how Star Wars episode 4 _A New Hope_ started out in 1977.




> I think GL just needed to move the plot along; he didn't worry about the logic of his characters.



 He put so much time into the logic of the story he forgot to make the characters believable, but rest assured I'm not pulling your leg here, I am not making stuff up this is the plot of the movie, some of it is me making a logic stretch (not a very big one) but most of it was pretty much spelled out in black and white. The Jedi didn't steal his clone army.......The Jedi were manipulated into using the clone army to start a war. There was no other army for them to use when they needed one. This is the plot of the movie. There was no other way to defend the Republic and once they found out the separatist were creating a huge Droid army they had to act. It was shown the Jedi couldn't beat the Droid army (they lost in the Arena and had to be rescued), they needed their own army, wasn't it convienent that one just happened to be supplied for them when they needed it the most? Darth Sidious created a army of clones and had them hand delivered by the Jedi to Chancellor Palpatine.



> That's my point about the economics. If we assume the army is big, there's only about twenty people in the Republic who can make this happen. If we assume the Clone Army is small, the economics work but the logic doesn't - the Clones are too unimportant to be the pivot on which the galactic war rests.



 If we assume the clone army was big then there were millions of people or corperations or planetary governments who could of had it created, the Trade Federation had their own army, heck Naboo had it's own army (as pathetic as that was). Everybody but the Republic had a army, they relied on the Jedi (and more importantly the Jedi's reputation) to maintain order. If you look at it as the army was small, well then it was still big enough to start a war and you don't need as clones as they fight better than droids do, not to mention they would be lead by the Jedi and they would also be a good core for creating a army of the republic around. Either way the economics work out because you are on a galactic scale, where did he get the money? well from any of a thousand sources on a million planets, and the pivital role of the clone army works because before them there is no army of the Republic, after them there was one.




> I think that Brin's explanation makes as much sense as GLs original plot. And it's funnier. ;-)
> 
> Like I said, I don't think GL thought deeply about the continuity at all. He had some ideas of cool scenes and he need to get certain plot points to happen. As DMs I think we've all been in this boat. You wave your hands, have the Kaminians present the clue - "Look, the Clone Army" - and hope your players don't think hard about how it all fits together. But in this case I think I can see the stitches holding EpI and EpII together, and I am disappointed.
> 
> edit: oops, quotes got messed up.



Eh you have missed some big glaring plot points of the movie here, like the fact that Amadala started the whole movie on her way to Corescant  to vote on the big issue of wether there should be a Army of the Republic created, there wasn't one beforehand, or the fact that the clone army was obviously meant for the Jedi to use and that they delivered it to Palpatine. Heck you seem to have missed the point that the Jedi work for the Senate (lead by Palpatine). Or that Dooku wasn't actually part of the Sepratist movement, he was manipulating them for Palpatine. These are real fundamental underlying points to what's going on, they are not things I am coming up with to explain things they are the facts of the movie. I'm not arguing whether it was a good movie or not (it really wasn't all that) I'm just pointing out the plot details.


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## jdavis (Jan 10, 2004)

TiQuinn said:
			
		

> First of all, Lucas' success in other films has been as a producer, first and foremost, not a writer or a director. And second, I haven't missed anything about the plot. You are missing my point. Lucas' execution sucks. The plot is muddled. I know what is going to happen. I know that the clones are the stormtroopers of tomorrow. I know that Palpatine is actually Darth Sideous. I know that this is all a setup to eliminate the Jedi. The point is, without the original movies, this plot would NOT be obvious. It would not be engrossing in any way, shape or form. It wouldn't be some big conspiracy/mystery. It just wouldn't make sense. Without the prior knowledge of what is going to happen with Vader, Palpatine, and the destruction of the Jedi, this would be a big confusing mess. That is my criticism. The story only works because we know what happens in Star Wars, Empire, and Return of the Jedi. These movies don't stand on their own. They are crapola.



Well except for this little film he directed called Star Wars and this film he did called American Graffiti (which many to consider a real classic) Of course he has only directed 6 films and one of them isn't due out for another year. Lets not mention that the movies he has Produced were some of the best movies ever or that he is credited with the story for most of them. Yes he did a crappy job with the last two and yes he will probably do a crappy job witht he next one, but maybe we shouldn't crucify him for a movie that isn't even finished yet. 

As far as the rest without the first movies the plot twist to the third one would of been a big "I am your Father" type of suprise when Palpatine was revealed to be Sidious. I do have to disagree with you on his plot execution there, seems I was able to follow it pretty well and would of followed it regardless of the other movies. Look at it this way just how shocking would the "I am your father" scene been if you had seen the prequals first? It would of been a big "you mean he didn't see that comming moment" What looks so obvious when we know what's comming can be real hidden when you don't. There is no guarantee that people would make the Sidious=Palpatine leap if they did not know anything about Star Wars when they started watching, not to mention, Lucas would of probably hid it better if there wans't the other trilogy. They gave away all the clues to Vader being Lukes Father in Star Wars and Empire, they were more muddled ont he Luke and Leia angle but they dropped hints there too. He just can't do that with the Palpatine thing because everybody knows already. But really this plot isn't all that complicated here, I mean much of it is spelled out to the point of making it too obvious. Where Lucas's execution was crap was in his ability to direct his characters and his silly little details he threw in (Midichlorians......... I hate them almost as much as Planet Ziest). You can't fix acting in post production and you have to work to get good acting when they have to say retarded lines to a tennis ball on a pole. Lucas overtechnologied himself and under directed the actual acting part of it.


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## jdavis (Jan 10, 2004)

Kai Lord said:
			
		

> No, it really isn't too much to ask for. I think part of it is a lack of faith by the actors in the quality of writing and the story and the other part of it has to do with the actors being asked to emote largely on all green sets in front of blank green walls. Much harder to get the epic scope of the story when you're constantly reacting to nothing.
> 
> Another reason the acting is so "off" in places is revealed on the AOTC DVD. If Lucas thought in some scenes Hayden Christiansen delivered a line better than Portman, and vice versa, he would later digitally splice what he considered the best two line deliveries into one scene to create a "super take" of the scene as he coined it. The problem is you get a totally off-kilter chemistry because the actors aren't even reacting to what the other person is doing or saying, we're seeing them reacting to what the other actor did _three takes ago_ so even the one on one human interactions have an extra level of phoniness to them in a way that's completely unnecessary.
> 
> Its taking the gimmick of Forrest Gump's Tom Hanks/JFK splicing way too far and in scenes that are supposed to be intimate and emotional. Just bad directing.



I can see Lucas directing a scene where actors are bunping into walls and blowing their lines left and right and him going "Ok that's a wrap, we'll fix it in post." You have to wonder if he was even on set during much of the shooting, sometimes it seems there was no direction at all.


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## Welverin (Jan 10, 2004)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> We agree almost completely about these things, Welverin.  Portman's performance was the weakest of the principal actors.  Anakin being a punk made sense, he seethed through almost the entire film which should be a good lead-in to part 3.




Yeah, it's rather funny. There are a bunch of things we disagree on, but the ones we most agree on, are the ones most popular to hate on around here (SW prequels and RAS).



			
				John Crichton said:
			
		

> Boba Fett, in kid form, was disturbing.  He got off on all the killing and the bounty hunter lifestyle that his father led.




I actually find him rather annoying, with his "shoot him dad!" and the laughing.



			
				KidCthulhu said:
			
		

> No, I agree with you that Obi-Wan is a character with flaws.  I just don't buy that the inconsistent logic and general plot holes were deliberately created by Lucas as part of a subtle and delicate screenplay.  I am not willing to give him half that much credit.




Why not? What do you have to gain from assuming he's an incompetent boob? If viewing one way makes it a good movie and the other makes it bad, why not go with the good? After all wouldn’t you rather have a good movie to watch than a bad one?

It’s no different from reading something online that can be interpreted as a joke or an insult, you can take it as a joke and laugh or take it as an insult and get mad, which would you rather be?



			
				jdavis said:
			
		

> There are a million different worlds out there and more people and races than you can even count, I thought it was a 100,000 man army myself but even at 1 million it wasn't all that (There are droid armies out there with 10 times that number). Heck even when you just compare it to Earth, the Russians lost 500,000 troops in the battle of Stalingrad. 1 million troops on a Galactic scale is a freaking personal guard (US armed Forces run about 1.4 million active duty troops), it wouldn't even cost all that when say compared to the upkeep of a million worlds, You have a massive beurocracy here, I mean it's a galactic massive one, do you know how easy it would be for the Channellor to slip a little out here and there,




The number of troops is just a fault of Lucas’, this isn’t sci-fi and it’s obvious by George’s lack, Obi-wan mentions millions of people dying on Alderaan (admittedly they may not have been literal), the Falcon limps from Hoth to Bespin with out a working Hyperdrive (everyone would die of old age traveling between the two systems at sublight speeds, well maybe not Chewie).

So the size of the clone army is just a case of George going ‘Gee, a million is a lot’ and not considering the size of the army relative to the galactic population.

Of course it’s really rather irrelevant, the accuracy of such things doesn’t make a difference to the story.



			
				jdavis said:
			
		

> (Midichlorians......... I hate them almost as much as Planet Ziest).




Great line, right up there with “Parts of episode one were good, and other parts had Jar-jar in them.”


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## Gizzard (Jan 11, 2004)

> Palpatine only had one dark Jedi minion (there is always only two sith lords) and it was Dooku. By reading what you wrote here I see that you have in fact completly missed the entire plot of the movie. The Kaminoans were instructed to make the army for the Jedi council, why because the Jedi work for the Chancellor, Yes yes yes the army was intended for the Jedi to have.




So, if the Clone Army was for the (good) Jedi to have, which (good) Jedi knew about this?  Obi-Wan did not.  Yoda says he did not, but he's a tricky little oven-mitt.  ;-)  

(When the Kaminians named the Jedi who ordered the army, it was a name I didn't recognize.  Obi-Wan kinda shrugged it off and said "That guy's been dead for 10 years."  It wasn't Dooku, but frankly, I would expect whoever ordered the Army to use an alias.  I'd also expect GL not to worry about it either.)



> This is a secret plot, Palpatine can't reveal himself as a Dark Lord of the Sith, the Jedi would destroy him, but he can manipulate himself to the top where he can secretly send them out to be killed in a bloody war. He tricked the Trade Federation into starting a separitist movement and starting a big crisis, he tricked the Senate to give him absolute power (funny that he had sent Amadala home and into hiding right before this vote came up, she was it's biggest opponent), he tricked the Jedi into going to Geonosis (and being slaughtered) and tricked Yoda into attacking Geonosis with the clones to rescue them thus starting the clone wars.




I think this is a solid statement of the plot as GL sees it.   Its needlessly convoluted, and it relies on people not noticing that Palpatine would have been better off keeping the Clone Army for himself since Dooku's forces did a fine job of decimating the Jedi; if Yoda hadn't brought in the Clones they probably could have finished the job right there!  

Tangent 4: My interpretation of the movie was the Palpatine had ordered the Clone Army for himself (since they looked like Stormtroopers to me, and he's obviously the Emperor) and through a pathetic lack of security he allowed these Clones to be used by his enemies (the good Jedi).  If he had managed to use Dooku+Clones to destroy the Jedi would have achieved all of his objectives by then end of AotC, but then there wouldn't be a need for the third movie.  So, GL gives the Clones to the Jedi so they can eke out a costly victory and he can make Ep3.


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