# Review of Dungeon Crawl Classics RPG by Goodman Games



## Neuroglyph (Dec 9, 2012)

“_Old School_” is one phrase being kicked around the D&D roleplaying game community quite a bit these days. With the advent of the D&D Next Open Playtest, numerous message boards, blog sites, and articles have been very quickly transforming the concept of “Old School Heroic Fantasy gaming” into a hot internet meme.

And there has been quite a bit of lively debate of what “Old School” gaming is like, what it should be like, and what are its defining characteristics - a debate which has focused almost exclusively around the still developing Next edition of Dungeons & Dragons. And there are many differing viewpoints on the topic, given the long history and varied game systems that have been used over the years to role play out “swords & sorcery” adventures.

But it appears that some in the RPG Community have been contemplating the nature of “Old School” Heroic Fantasy gaming far longer than a certain group of designers in Washington state. Goodman Games has recently published a roleplaying game system which claims to be an avatar of “Appendix N” fantasy novels (a reference here to the AD&D Dungeon Masters Guide). Released as a beta back in June of 2011 and subjected to hours of playtesting at a number of conventions around the USA, the official version of *Dungeon Crawl Classics* hit the shelves this Spring, and is apparently ready to put the “Old School” back into roleplaying once again!

*Dungeon Crawl Classics*


*Designers*: Joseph Goodman (lead), Tavis Allison, Andy Frielink, Todd Kath, Doug Kovacs, Harley Stroh, Steven Thivierge, Dieter Zimmerman
*Illustrators*: Jeff Dee, Jeff Easley, Jason Edwards, Tom Galambos, Friedrich Haas, Jim Holloway, Doug Kovacs, Diesel Laforce, William McAusland, Brad McDevitt, Jesse Mohn, Peter Mullen, Russ Nicholson, Erol Otus, Stefan Poag, Jim Roslof, Chad Sergesketter, Chuck Whelon, Mike Wilson
*Publisher*: Goodman Games
*Year*: 2012
*Media*: PDF or Hardbound (470 pages)
*Cost*: $24.99 (PDF from *RPGNow*) 
*Dungeon Crawl Classics RPG* is a complete roleplaying game system of “Glory & Gold won by Swords & Sorcery”, hearkening back to the very first products of *TSR*, *Judges Guild*, *Chaosium*, and other fantasy roleplaying systems from the 1970s. *Dungeon Crawl Classics RPG* contains a complete set of rules for character generation, including seven character classes, three races, a unique spell system and selection of spells, equipment, and combat rules. In addition, the game also includes a monster manual of classic and iconic fantasy roleplaying monsters, magic items, Judges’ (GM) Rules for running the game, critical hit tables, fumbles tables, and appendices full of many more tables, not to mention two adventure modules!


*Production Quality*

The production quality of *Dungeon Crawl Classics RPG* was frankly stunning, with an excellently designed layout to provide a gamer with everything needed to play the game, whether a Player or a Judge. The manual and rules have a logical and clear flow throughout the book, and the writing is sharp, creative, and often humorous, which made reading the content both very enjoyable and memorable.

Usually I just receive a PDF version for my review, but this time, I received a hard-bound version of the book as well. And let me say that the sheer volume of the – and no other word really applies here – *tome* containing the *Dungeon Crawl Classics RPG* simply cannot be adequately visualized from viewing just the PDF. The book is hardbound, very solid, and about the size of a phonebook - and I’ll admit I actually enjoyed the dense heft of it as I lugged the huge tome around the house, reading through it in preparation for the review!

But it’s the illustrations that will really launch “old school” gamers into nostalgic reverence, because the *Dungeon Crawl Classics RPG* is packed with sketches and black & white line art utterly evocative of the roleplaying game products of the late 70s and 80s era. When you have a book containing artwork by Jim Easley (AD&D _Players Handbook_, _Dungeon Masters Guide_, _Monster Manual_), Erol Otus (AD&D _Fiend Folio_, _Deities & Demi-gods_), and the late Jim Roslof (AD&D _Keep on the Borderlands_, _Queen of the Demonweb Pits_, _White Plume Mountain_, etc.), and others, you’re going to have no choice but get all reminiscent and wistful about it if you’ve ever had any contact with the oldest editions of Dungeons & Dragons.


*A Total Dungeon Crawl Experience*

_*Dungeon Crawl Classics RPG*_ (*DCC RPG*) begins with the authors telling you what the book is, and what it is not, with respect to Dungeons & Dragons of any edition. The authors offer a quick and blunt explanation of the game, explaining how this is meant to be enjoyed by _“…a fantasy enthusiast of imaginative mind, familiar with the customs of role playing, understanding the history and significance of the Elder Gods Gygax and Arneson and their cohorts Bledsaw, Holmes, Kask, Kuntz, Mentzer, and Moldvay, and knowledgeable of the role of ‘judge’ and the practice of ‘adventure.’_ ” 

In other words - a “grognard”.

However, I use this term with _respect_, because *DCC RPG* does offer a fresh look at the older versions of games from the “fantasy roleplaying genre”, with all the old polyhedral dice fun (including odd dice like d14, d16, and d30), as well as copious random charts. But it also adds some mechanics which, while tracing their lineage back to the “old school”, have a certain indie game edge to them – which to me was an instantly intriguing concept.


*Characters*

There are seven character classes in DCC RPG which are familiar to anyone who played OD&D, Red Box, Expert, and AD&D. Four are taken from the iconic character classes – Cleric, Thief, Warrior, and Wizard – while the remaining three are racial classes – Dwarf, Elf, and Halfling. However, before a player can even choose a character class to play, he has to create a 0-Level character first. Actually, make that several 0-Level characters.

*DCC RPG* uses what the author refers to as the “character funnel” method for character creation. Players roll the ubiquitous 3d6 dice to generate six stats (Strength, Agility, Stamina, Personality, Intelligence and Luck) in order, and then roll on a random table to determine their occupation as a starting 0-Level character. Characters select alignments of Lawful, Chaotic, or Neutral, which have very real effects in their fortunes, and some starting trade goods and cash. Random occupations include such skills as Ropemaker, Gravedigger, and Cobbler, as well as racial occupations such as Dwarven miner, Elven forester, and Halfling vagrant. By the way, if you get a racial occupation, your class will be a racial one, assuming you survive your first foray into adventure as a peasant hero.

The authors create no illusions about the toughness of game play – 0-Level characters are going to die, in droves, so make up several from the start and bring them along on their first adventure! Some monster attacks and most spells require saving throws, using the Fortitude, Reflex, Will standard, and failed saves often result in massive damage or instant death! 

Those characters that do survive to amass experience to make 1st Level are allowed to choose a character class (unless your surviving character is a Dwarf, Elf, or Halfling – then you become that class), and finally start adventuring with a more powerful abilities than swinging a staff or knife at some horrible monster. The random character generation and Darwinian survival-of-the-fittest seem to be designed to create not only a memorable play experience, but to create a background and personality for the character forged in perilous adventure.

The character classes are an interesting mix, containing both iconic fantasy RPG traits, but having new mechanics added in to make them quite unique from their earlier incarnations. And it’s also important to point out that the classes and game mechanics are designed to represent a roleplaying style evocative of the novels in Appendix N, which include Tolkien’s _Lord of the Rings_, but also Lovecraft’s horror works, Lieber’s swashbuckling Fafhrd & Grey Mouser, and the apocalyptic story of Moorcock’s Elric saga. There are some definite dark elements to this fantasy roleplaying game, which comes out through a variety of game mechanics.

So while a Cleric can heal, cast spells, turn, and invoke their deity, they also have to be careful not to overuse their deity’s power to cast spells, or risk Disapproval (with an appropriate table of divine punishments for angering a fickle god). Healing damage is nicely handled as an at-will ability, but subject to Disapproval rolls if overused. Also the Cleric’s alignment affects how well he can heal other members of the party (diametric opposition gets less healing), and who the Cleric can turn. For example, a Lawful Cleric turns undead and demons, while a Chaotic Cleric can turn paladins and angels.

The Thief, Warrior, Dwarf, and Halfling classes are all melee based and gain certain bonus dice to excel at certain abilities. For instance, the Thief has Luck Dice to add in to attacks, damage and skill checks, as well and a plethora of classic rogue abilities, including old classics like Find and Disable Traps and Read Languages – including casting spells from scrolls – and backstab, of course, which causes an instant critical hit. Warriors and Dwarf classes have Deed Dice, ranging from d3 at low level to 1d10+4 at the high end, which are rolled as a bonus to both hit and damage in combat, and can allow them to perform “Mighty Deeds” such as disarming, tripping, pushbacks, and even rallying the adventuring team. Halflings gain Stealth Dice, and can dual-wield exceptionally well, giving them increased damage despite their small size.

Wizards (and the Elf class) have some of the most in-depth and involved rules because of spell casting, and *DCC RPG*’s spell system is, and yet is NOT, your classic D&D spell system. Unlike the other classes, these do not have special “add-on” dice, but instead have spells and an amazingly detailed system of spell casting (see below) and gaining spells from supernatural entities. Spells are cast at-will here, sort of, because they can be forgotten due to poor results when making a casting check. 

I should mention that all classes have critical dice which scale up for added damage when a natural 20 is rolled, and there are Critical Hit tables for various classes (and in the case of Warriors, both for low and high level). It would also appear that DCC RPG has solved the “Fighter Linear-Wizard Quadratic” equation by giving melee classes the ability to do substantial damage, and for the Thief and Warrior, a range of nasty Critical Hits from the table that can often result in instant death.

One last note, the Luck ability score can actually be “burned” for bonuses to hit, to saving throws, and other dice checks. And the Halfling and Thief classes even have mechanics to restore the Luck stat at an accelerated rate, allowing them to use it frequently while adventuring to represent acts of daring and outrageous good fortune.


*Spellcasting*

The spell casting system in DCC RPG, like the character classes, an intriguing mix of “old school” and unique game mechanics. Many spells in the tome are recognizable from various editions of D&D like the Wizard’s _Magic Missile_ and _Scorching Ray_ and the Cleric’s _Protection from Evil_ and _Spiritual Weapon_. Other similar spells can be found with variant names like _Word of Command_ (Command) and _Spider Web_ (Web), and there is a solid collection of iconic spells to choose from.

What makes the system unique is that spell casting is not a sure thing, and in fact, can cause unstable and even dangerous results. As previously mentioned, all casting classes must roll a _spell check_ to cast their spells. Each spell has its own table of results, ramping up in effectiveness from a basic level of effect or damage on up to something that might be misconstrued as a natural disaster. A Scorching Ray can cause a few points of damage with a low check, but a very high check (over 30) might involve the caster bringing forth magma and hurling at his foes, striking for deadly amounts of damage! 

It also makes the rules for spells and spell casting take up a massive part of the DCC RPG book – well over 200 pages are devoted to spells and spell casting rules and tables!
But failing a spell check has dire results. On the mild side, a spell might not work, or fail and then be stripped from memory until rememorized. On the more sever side, failing a spell check with a natural 1 can have some very dire results for the caster. For Clerics, this means courting divine Disapproval, ranging from having to pray for 10 minutes for atonement to having their healing abilities stripped away for 24 hours. For Wizards (and the Elf class), this means Corruption, which is literally magic causing physical harm to the caster’s body and soul. This can be a minor disfigurement such as small lesions of the skin, or full blown decay for more powerful spell failure.

While Clerics have to deal with a sometimes capricious deity for spells, arcane casters must consult with powerful supernatural entities, demonic forces, and elder gods for their spells. These are given out randomly each level or by questing for them, or if they dare, by direct consultation with their supernatural patron.

And each spell manifests differently for each Wizard (or Elf), with odd side effects for casting a particular spell. The authors provide the Mercurial Magic Table to determine what the side effect is, and each and every spell a Wizard learns comes with its own unique casting properties. For instance, one Wizard’s Magic Missile spell might cause his flesh to become invisible for a few rounds, leaving him appearing like a skeleton! Another Wizard might have learned the same spell, but everytime she casts a Magic Missile, animals within sight of her become terrified and flee! This is just one of the ways spell casting is a strange and unusual event in *DCC RPG*.


*Monsters, Treasure, and Magic Items*

Monsters in the game comprise many of the classic types of undead, giants, dragons, and other mythological creatures common to heroic fantasy. Other creatures like demons and Lovecraftian monsters also have a place in this game, which can bring a certain darker horror fantasy element if the Judge wants to include them. The monster stat blocks are simple and easy to read, and any gamer familiar with 3.5 or earlier will be able to read them without any trouble.

There is a general Critical Hits chart for most monsters, and certain ones get a special chart of their own. Not surprisingly, demons, dragons, giants, and undead have special charts here, and their critical hits are both scary and appropriate to the particular type of monster.

Treasure is generally plentiful, but magic items seem to be meant to be rare finds. The authors provide a chart for distribution of magic items into the party by their level, and offer some tables for creating magic swords and spell scrolls. There are a few guidelines for characters to make their own items, and a spell is available to make potions. But for the other magic items, only guidelines for their creation are offered here, meaning that for rings and wondrous objects are generally up to the Judge to create, based upon whatever sort of campaign they are running. I would have liked to see a bit more here, but the guidelines are ample to give a Judge the right idea that magic items are special, rare, and exciting to find.

The DCC RPG tome ends with a series of appendices with tables for curses, starting languages, and poisons, as well as a random chart for names and titles. There are two short adventures offered in the book as well. The first is a 0-Level adventure to get the characters started on their career in adventuring, and a 5th Level adventure for mid-level play. 
There are only 10 levels of play in the game, but with the danger and attrition rate of the character funnel, it is likely that heroes will have their work cut out for them to reach maximum level!


*Overall Score*: 4.6 *out of* 5.0


*Conclusions*

Having played through the “old school” era of D&D, as well as numerous other fantasy RPG systems over the years, I can definitely say that *Dungeon Crawl Classics RPG* pushes all the right buttons for recreating that nostalgic feel of heroic fantasy games from the 70s and 80s. And while I am definitely a 4E fan at heart, I must admit I want to run a mini-campaign or two of *DCC RPG* for my gaming groups, just for the sheer fun of early edition swords and sorcery roleplaying. What I really appreciate is that the authors created the old edition experience, but with some surprising and interesting mechanics that make every character feel special as part of an adventuring group. And some of the new mechanics really add a horror element to the heroic fantasy which you find quite prevalent in novels of the genre since Howard’s Conan first started hacking up demons and undead wizards decades ago.

And I can respect the unapologetic mindset to the game. It’s “old school”, like it or leave it, but they made it fun enough that I think a lot of D&D gamers would like it, regardless of edition. It certainly isn’t trying to market to all D&D and fantasy gamers of every edition, but then again, DCC RPG seems to know what it is and makes no buts about it.
The authors really brought together a complete package in one book – a player’s guide, a spell compendium, a monster manual, and a GM guide, plus a couple modules thrown in for free! So whether you buy the hardbound or PDF, you are ready to head off on a grand quest to slay horrible monsters, discover strange new places, and grab all the gold you can carry!

_So until next review… I wish you Happy Gaming!_

*Author’s Note*: This Reviewer received a complimentary copy of the product in Hardbound and PDF format from which the review was written.

*Grade Card (Ratings 1 to 5)*


*Presentation*: 4.25
- Design: 4.5 (Awesome design and fun to read; good layout and progression of content)
- Illustrations: 4.0 (Most were excellent representations of old school art but there were a few not as impressive pieces)
*Content*: 4.5 
- Crunch: 4.5 (Highly crunchy; great blend of old school and indie mechanics)
- Fluff: 4.5 (Lots of fluff, particularly for spell casting; strong encouragement to roleplay)
*Value*: 5.0 (It’s a fully complete game for just 40 bucks – and much less for the PDF! Totally a steal!)


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## Drowbane (May 31, 2012)

This looks to be awesome.


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## Anselyn (May 31, 2012)

And there has been quite a bit of lively debate of what “Old School” gaming is like, what it should be like, and what are its defining characteristics - *a debate which has focused almost exclusively around the still developing Next edition of Dungeons & Dragons*

Well, er, actually, *NO*.


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## Leif (May 31, 2012)

Alright!!!  I can't wait to check this one out!


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## jtylerk (May 31, 2012)

Outstanding review, thank you.  This may drag me into the dang hobby shop to shell out some duckets for the first time in a million years.


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## Ravenheart87 (May 31, 2012)

A brilliant and fun game, full of cool stuff. Even if you won't play DCC RPG, it's nice to have it - you can steal a lot for your own D&D/d20 campaign and it's an entertaining read with lots of good advice for DMs.


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## Alzrius (May 31, 2012)

Neuroglyph, does the DCC RPG use the OGL? I'm curious, as it sounds like it draws pretty deep from the well of D&D lore.


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## RevTurkey (May 31, 2012)

Good review. I have the game and I love it!


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## Ravenheart87 (May 31, 2012)

Alzrius said:


> Neuroglyph, does the DCC RPG use the OGL? I'm curious, as it sounds like it draws pretty deep from the well of D&D lore.




Yes it does. There are already 3pps working on DCC supplements and adventures. The first 3pp adventure (Perils of the Sunken City) is already available in pdf format.


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## Leif (May 31, 2012)

Ooops!


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## Leif (May 31, 2012)

Alzrius said:
			
		

> Does the DCC RPG use the OGL? I'm curious, as it sounds like it draws pretty deep from the well of D&D lore.






Ravenheart87 said:


> Yes it does. There are already 3pps working on DCC supplements and adventures. The first 3pp adventure (Perils of the Sunken City) is already available in pdf format.




That's great news!  Thanks a bunch!


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## IronWolf (May 31, 2012)

Great review! Looking forward to picking this game up as I keep hearing very positive things about it.


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## ColonelHardisson (May 31, 2012)

I preordered the Gold version of the book. It is, indeed, impressive and beautiful. Fantastic art leaps out. My personal favorite of the newer artists is Peter Mullen, whose work stands shoulder-to-shoulder with that of the classic artists who have work in the game.

I think it's worthwhile to mention that there is no index, and the table of contents is not that great. In fact, the ToC is a bit confusing in its layout. I've read that there is an effort underway to put together an index, but it's a lapse that is noticeable in a book of this size.

Regardless, this is a really cool book, and I'd love the opportunity to run the game. It definitely reminds me of old school D&D, but has its own unique take on it. Of the various Old School Revival games and retroclones, this is my favorite.


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## Lord Rasputin (May 31, 2012)

I've played. It has an interesting magic system, but it needs to ditch the funny dice. It stripped 3e/4e to the roots (good) then added lots of arbitrary rules (bad).


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## Kunimatyu (May 31, 2012)

If you really want to emulate Appendix N, you drop the Cleric entirely. 

Joe wasn't willing to do that, sadly.


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## Ravenheart87 (May 31, 2012)

Lord Rasputin said:


> I've played. It has an interesting magic system, but it needs to ditch the funny dice. It stripped 3e/4e to the roots (good) then added lots of arbitrary rules (bad).




Like it or not, those are features and not bugs. Funny dice are in, because they're cool, plus they make some game mechanics more interesting. The arbitrary rules are usually there to help in capturing the feel of the classic sword fantasy literature mentioned in Appendix N.


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## IronWolf (May 31, 2012)

Lord Rasputin said:


> ... but it needs to ditch the funny dice.




Yeah, I have heard a few complaints about that as well. But to hear interviews with him they were sort of included to bring back the fascination with funny looking dice. Back in the day we were all new to the d4's and stuff. The funny dice in this game hope to do the same.

We'll see. I will likely need to get my hands on some.




Kunimatyu said:


> If you really want to emulate Appendix N, you drop the Cleric entirely.




Eh, there is a reasonable thread over on the Goodman Games forums where they talk about the cleric and Appendix N. They made a good enough case for me.


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## Alzrius (May 31, 2012)

IronWolf said:


> Eh, there is a reasonable thread over on the Goodman Games forums where they talk about the cleric and Appendix N. They made a good enough case for me.




Link please?


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## IronWolf (May 31, 2012)

Alzrius said:


> Link please?




Sorry - even as I closed the tab earlier, I thought maybe I should have linked it!

Here is the link:

Goodman Games &bull; View topic - Thoughts on a simplified SRD game.

The Death, Dying, and Healing section and Character Classes section in the post are most relevant. There is some discussion later in the thread as well, but the post I link to seems most applicable as to why decisions were made.


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## Kunimatyu (May 31, 2012)

IronWolf said:


> Sorry - even as I closed the tab earlier, I thought maybe I should have linked it!
> 
> Here is the link:
> 
> ...




That's pretty unconvincing as far as leaving clerics in. By Joe's logic, you'd see a core Paladin well before you'd add in a core Cleric.

I used to be quite interested in DCC, but it became clear early on that this was Joe's pet OD&D and not actually Appendix-N-based.


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## Ravenheart87 (May 31, 2012)

Kunimatyu said:


> That's pretty unconvincing as far as leaving clerics in. By Joe's logic, you'd see a core Paladin well before you'd add in a core Cleric.




Actually, the paladin is there: it's the high level lawful warrior's name. Chaotic clerics can possibly turn paladins.


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## Kunimatyu (May 31, 2012)

Ravenheart87 said:


> Actually, the paladin is there: it's the high level lawful warrior's name. Chaotic clerics can possibly turn paladins.




Using the name as a title doesn't really negate the point, which was that based on Joe's logic, you'd expect to see a full Paladin class before you'd see a Cleric class, based on Appendix N.


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## Lord Rasputin (May 31, 2012)

Ravenheart87 said:


> Like it or not, those are features and not bugs. Funny dice are in, because they're cool,



You misspelled "stupid." Seriously, they added nothing to the game; the same effects could be done using more common polyhedrons. The Zocchi dice add nothing, are lame and roll funny, kinda like a d4 (why I have 8-sided d4s).



Ravenheart87 said:


> plus they make some game mechanics more interesting. The arbitrary rules are usually there to help in capturing the feel of the classic sword fantasy literature mentioned in Appendix N.



They don't. Instead, they capture the arbitrary rules of 1970s D&D and Arduin and such, and remind us why we came up with different rules. Nowhere in Howard, Leiber or Tolkein do I find any reason to change init dice with a two-handed weapon and the mess doing so brings.

This isn't a bad game, but these are bad features. They appeal to grognards and grognards only, doing nothing to lure desperately needed new blood. I know this is going to go over badly with its devoted fan base, but at least D&D 4e (and I am not a fan; in fact, I think DCC is a better game in spite of these defects)  and D&D Next have newbies in mind.


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## mach1.9pants (May 31, 2012)

Well it won't go over badly with 'devoted fans' as DCC was never aimed at newbies. Rightly so, to aim it that way (and change things to make it work for newbies) would have been a waste of time and dilution of the game. It is ridiculous to expect every game to be accessible to RPG newbies, in my opinion, especially small publishers who cannot sell anywhere but games stores or online. 

I really like the craziness of the game and the dice, they do add to the rules. Like advantage/disadvantage in DnDNext it is more fun and easier, IMO, to roll dice than use a ton of modifiers. Although neither DnDN or DCC go far enough in that respect, I'd love to see all the modifiers gone.

I certainly agree that it is not 100% pure AppN gaming being heavily influenced by ODnD/Basic. However it is a great game in it's own right and does exactly what Joseph set out to do: Make his DnD (and if others like it all the better!)


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## Kunimatyu (Jun 1, 2012)

Lord Rasputin said:


> This isn't a bad game, but these are bad features. They appeal to grognards and grognards only, doing nothing to lure desperately needed new blood.




This.

A real attempt at an "Appendix N" RPG would have stripped out far more idiosyncratic D&Disms than Joe actually did. That's not to say it's not a fun take on OD&D style, just that the DCC RPG doesn't really emulate the old pulp sword&sorcery that inspired D&D.


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## IronWolf (Jun 1, 2012)

Kunimatyu said:


> That's pretty unconvincing as far as leaving clerics in. By Joe's logic, you'd see a core Paladin well before you'd add in a core Cleric.
> 
> I used to be quite interested in DCC, but it became clear early on that this was Joe's pet OD&D and not actually Appendix-N-based.




Seemed convincing enough to me. It seems you have more of an axe to grind with Joe's decisions. That is fair enough, but the post I linked to seems to be enough justification to me to include them.


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## RevTurkey (Jun 1, 2012)

I like the dice.


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## ColonelHardisson (Jun 1, 2012)

Lord Rasputin said:


> This isn't a bad game, but these are bad features.




To you they're bad. Not to me.



Lord Rasputin said:


> They appeal to grognards and grognards only,




And I think that's the target audience.




Lord Rasputin said:


> doing nothing to lure desperately needed new blood.




Why should it? What's wrong with a game directly appealing to a specific demographic? Appealing to a new crowd, younger or not, does not have to be a mission goal for every RPG, especially one that has directly and specifically pointed to old school gaming and heroic fantasy as its inspiration. Besides, weird dice aren't the barrier to entry for RPGs. The massive success of videogames and their pervasiveness in modern pop culture are. 



Lord Rasputin said:


> I know this is going to go over badly with its devoted fan base, but at least D&D 4e (and I am not a fan; in fact, I think DCC is a better game in spite of these defects)  and D&D Next have newbies in mind.




OK, so? Again, not every RPG has to appeal to newbies. What part of DCC has ever given the impression it was even trying to draw in new players?


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## Leif (Jun 1, 2012)

Um , what was I going to say?


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## Warunsun (Jun 1, 2012)

I want to try out this game but I think I would have a hard time "selling" it to the local players. It sounds like a fun thing to play alongside a more modern D&D experience. However, I don't think any of my players would dig the _Paranoia_ six-pack character creation method.


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## Leif (Jun 1, 2012)

For cryin' out loud, if you don't like the character creation rules, _CHANGE_ them!

I was thinking that the char gen rules would be the first casualties if I were to run this game....


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## renau1g (Jun 1, 2012)

I think they're oddly fun, I am not an old-school gamer, my first D&D was late in 2e's run (1 campaign in 2e, the rest in 3e/4e), but this seems like it's an interesting option.


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## Aberzanzorax (Jun 1, 2012)

I'm not an oldschool gamer, and certainly not a hardcore oldschool gamer (like some in this thread may or may not be)...

...but I find the game interesting and a great juxtaposition to the extremes of 3.x, Pathfinder, and 4e...and will be buying it to play, understand and also...

...to provide additional context for 5e/ddn along with 3e, pathfinder, 4e, trailblazer, and the "odd books" like bo9s, ToM, etc etc.



It certainly does seem to be a well designed "capture" of a certain specific style. For that, I'll give it kudos.


I don't go to a horror movie and then post how "unfunny" it was. Nor do I go to a comedy and decry it for "not being scary enough". I think this game might just do the right things for the right people it's aimed at.

Nothing more, nothing less...and possibly spot on.


EDIT TO CLARIFY: I was responding to some of the comments in the thread, not to the OP Neuroglyph, whose review was great.


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## Wraith Form (Jun 1, 2012)

Aberzanzorax said:


> I don't go to a horror movie and then post how "unfunny" it was. Nor do I go to a comedy and decry it for "not being scary enough". I think this game might just do the right things for the right people it's aimed at.
> 
> Nothing more, nothing less...and possibly spot on.




Well said, and I agree.  It's a fun iteration for those who would have fun with this kind of iteration of D&D.


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## Ravenheart87 (Jun 1, 2012)

Aberzanzorax said:


> I don't go to a horror movie and then post how "unfunny" it was. Nor do I go to a comedy and decry it for "not being scary enough". I think this game might just do the right things for the right people it's aimed at.




Well said. Honestly, I would've been disappointed if DCC RPG was just another fantasy rpg or D&D clone. We already have enough generic fantasy rpgs. The crazy stuff of DCC appeal to me, but I also liked many gonzo elements of Arduin and old Judges Guild products (yeah, those had some too).


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## jeffh (Jun 1, 2012)

> And there has been quite a bit of lively debate of what “Old School” gaming is like, what it should be like, and what are its defining characteristics - a debate which has focused almost exclusively around the still developing Next edition of Dungeons & Dragons.



Um... no.

I haven't gotten into the substance of the review yet, it could be great for all I currently know. However, essentially proclaiming wholesale ignorance of the entire OSR, which significantly predates the 5E announcement and has numerous websites, blogs, heck even small-press _companies_ devoted to it, and a movement of which this game is very much a part... wow, talk about starting off on the wrong foot. It's like starting a review of _The Avengers_ by talking about how new and innovative the characters of Iron Man and Captain America are, as though they didn't have a combined 100+ years of history before the recent Marvel movies.


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## Kunimatyu (Jun 1, 2012)

IronWolf said:


> It seems you have more of an axe to grind with Joe's decisions.




Absolutely. I was totally on board with a sword-and-sorcery Appendix N reimagination, and got yet another "OSR"-style D&D clone with a few weird house rules.


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## RevTurkey (Jun 1, 2012)

Few things...

The dice: weird shaped polys were strange back in the 70s. That worked out okay...'I play Monopoly which has six sided dice so this D&D can get lost'?

Appendix N: Joseph and many people involved in the Playtests took great efforts to read most if not all of these books. Mr.Goodman certainly tried to add elements of these stories into the game. Imagining a world or setting in your head is going to be different for each of us. If you think he got it wrong but still want to play DCC then no problem. Change it.

Clerics: they are in D&D. We like D&D. I think that is why they stayed in.

New Players: I think it is more accessible than some editions of D&D and less so than others or retroclone versions etc (say Labyrinth Lord). Here is a link to a Forum posting about introducing new blood that seemed to go well enough: 

Goodman Games &bull; View topic - First foray into DCC and RPGs in general for the family

The Funnel: to me it is great fun but if you or your players don't like the idea or are nervous about trying something unfamiliar, that is fair enough. You can start the game at 1st level by just determining what happened during that 0 level stage without actually playing through it. Maybe then, if you enjoyed the main game, the next time you create characters you might want to try it out. Not a problem.

I am a fan of this game and would like people to try it to see if they may have fun and interesting adventures with it too. Trying to put people off for reasons that are at best subjective and not about terribly broken rules or horrendously offensive content, to me seems overly negative and smacks of trying to introduce some sort of flame war/game bashing to this thread. I don't want to upset the couple of posters my comment is directed at...I just want them to take a moment to consider why they want to be so negative about a new game that is just trying a different direction. Peace, love, beads etc

Folks it is a game. Maybe try it if you can. I enjoy it a lot.

I keep imagining a child saying to Mummy...'no, I won't eat the carrot, I don't like carrots! But son...you've never tried carrots'

I like funky dice and I like Carrots 

(please don't be horrible to me in reply. I tried to be nice and friendly)


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## IronWolf (Jun 1, 2012)

Kunimatyu said:


> Absolutely. I was totally on board with a sword-and-sorcery Appendix N reimagination, and got yet another "OSR"-style D&D clone with a few weird house rules.




And that's cool - I can understand if it didn't meet your expectations that you would be disappointed.

It looks like fun to me and am anxious to pick it up and funnel some of my players through it!


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## mouser (Jun 1, 2012)

*Hardcover available?*

Does anyone know if the print edition is still available anywhere?

Not on amazon or their website.

I hate spending money on PDF's


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## Ravenheart87 (Jun 1, 2012)

mouser said:


> Does anyone know if the print edition is still available anywhere?
> 
> Not on amazon or their website.
> 
> I hate spending money on PDF's




Not available on their website? It's one of the first items you see when you check their online shop.  It's also available in Paizo's store.


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## dkyle (Jun 1, 2012)

Warunsun said:


> However, I don't think any of my players would dig the _Paranoia_ six-pack character creation method.




Yeah, my group ran the Beta for a little while, and I did not think that the level-0 stuff worked as expected.  It was not survival of the fittest.  It was survival of the characters that sucked at doing stuff, so were generally out of harms' way twiddling their thumbs while the useful characters did stuff (and ended up getting killed).

Also, being forced into a racial class due to background roll really sucks...


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## Ravenheart87 (Jun 1, 2012)

dkyle said:


> Also, being forced into a racial class due to background roll really sucks...



House rule it if you don't like it. It's not that hard. I'm going to play a bit by the book for now, but I have planes for seperating race and class, and adding some new classes to the game. Not a big deal.


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## dkyle (Jun 1, 2012)

Ravenheart87 said:


> House rule it if you don't like it. It's not that hard. I'm going to play a bit by the book for now, but I have planes for seperating race and class, and adding some new classes to the game. Not a big deal.




It's a review thread. "House rule it" is not a good answer to a criticism of a game system.

I didn't say it single-handedly ruins the game, and that if only it was something else, I'd play it.  I said it was a mechanic that I particularly don't like.

Now, it _is_ a game that I don't like, overall, for many reasons.  If I houseruled _everything_ I dislike about DCC, I'd end up with a game that was more my design than Goodman's.


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## Ravenheart87 (Jun 1, 2012)

dkyle said:


> It's a review thread. "House rule it" is not a good answer to a criticism of a game system.




A game is more than just a collection of rules. The writer himself emphasizes customization and house ruling, the game is full of tools to customizes various elements of the game, there's even a seperate appendix about rules complexity, so while it's not part of the game mechanics, it's an important aspect of the game.


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## Leif (Jun 2, 2012)

dkyle said:


> It's a review thread. "House rule it" is not a good answer to a criticism of a game system.





Ravenheart87 said:


> A game is more than just a collection of rules. The writer himself emphasizes customization and house ruling, the game is full of tools to customizes various elements of the game, there's even a seperate appendix about rules complexity, so while it's not part of the game mechanics, it's an important aspect of the game.



Excellent and valid points from you both.


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## tenkar (Jun 2, 2012)

I hated the beta of DCC on first read.

I am thoroughly enjoying my read through of the final DCC RPG.

It is most certainly NOT for everyone. It is the game Joe Goodman wanted to write, so he did.  It encourages house ruling to make it closer to the type of game the GM / Group wants to play and gives some suggested changes.

It requires a certain amount of DM Fiat to make decisions on things like skill use and Mighty Deed of Arms (a warrior ability) which some groups will embrace and others will be uncomfortable with.

I do find it funny that even Old School gamers like myself have trouble agreeing what actually constitutes Old School Gaming, the OSR, Appendix N and the like.  It's one of those things that you know when you see it, but no two people see it the exact same way.


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## Leif (Jun 2, 2012)

So, tenkar, what changes were made between the beta test and the final version of DCC RPG?  Must've been some pretty dramatic editing going on somewhere to make you flip-flop like that, eh?


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## Ravenheart87 (Jun 2, 2012)

Changes that first come to my mind:

More stuff: 0 level professions, levels, spells, monsters, patrons, art.
Lots of inspiring and useful writing, tables, appendices were added.
No seperate XP charts for classes, calculating XP was simplified.
There's a lower chance that failure in spell casting cripples the caster.
Spell tables were redesigned, every spell got unique effects for failure.
No percentile thief skills, they work like every other skill check now.
Level 0 demihumans get some of the abilities from thier racial classes.


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## RevTurkey (Jun 3, 2012)

Hi, just to let people know...

The support for this game is gathering momentum.

Aside from Goodman Games releasing adventures (plenty coming too), there are  a couple of KickStarter projects getting warmed up:

The first is a Sword & Sorcery setting called 'Tales of The Fallen Empire' which seems to answer complaints about DCC not going far enough in it's use of Appendix N style influence.

Here is a link:
Tales From the Fallen Empire: Sword and Sorcery Setting by James Carpio &mdash; Kickstarter

The second is from the well respected company Brave Halfling. They have an adventure series KickStarter to get the ball rolling on a series of 6 adventures that are written 

Here is a link:
Appendix N Adventure Toolkits (DCC RPG Modules) by John Adams &mdash; Kickstarter

Check them out. Some other 3PP stuff has been announced as well. A creature book. A Gothic Horror type supplement and spellbook. Also there is a company called Purple Sorcerer that is releasing adventures (already started at rpgnow) and a KickStarter for a cool tablet companion is due to go live soon.

Good stuff.


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## Feanor Liberius (Jun 3, 2012)

I don't wade into these discussions too often (for various reasons), but I felt the need to comment on one aspect.

For those who think this will not bring in new blood, I would only posit the possibility that this in many ways is similar to one of the paths of the infiltration of D&D into the culture. That is, older, more experienced folks introducing younger, inexperienced players to the game.

Specifically, consider that the very "grognards" at which many consider this game to be aimed...many have children; children they introduce to this game.

I can speak from personal experience: my kids love this game. They were in the playtests at GaryCon a year or two ago (their names are even in the book!) learning it right alongside me. They played in a pickup game (run by the inestimable Doug Kovacs) at this most recent GaryCon. They are excited about being signed up for two sessions at GenCon (at their request). 

And as others have pointed out, there are play reports of the same or similar experiences - parents playing this game with their kids. I've actually begun to consider that this might be the first game that is essentially built for this model - made with the expectation that it will appeal to "grognards" and be fun enough for them to want to introduce it to the next generation of gamer.

IMHO, YMMV, etc.


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## Shag (Jun 3, 2012)

Is there no thread about this game in the forum?  I couldn't find one.


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## Leif (Jun 3, 2012)

James J. Skach said:


> I don't wade into these discussions too often (for various reasons), but I felt the need to comment on one aspect.
> 
> For those who think this will not bring in new blood, I would only posit the possibility that this in many ways is similar to one of the paths of the infiltration of D&D into the culture. That is, older, more experienced folks introducing younger, inexperienced players to the game.
> 
> ...



Excellent points, all,  Mr. Skach!!  It's times like these when I wish the ENWorld XP system was currently functional.
XP for you, CHA-CHING!


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## IronWolf (Jun 3, 2012)

Shag said:


> Is there no thread about this game in the forum?  I couldn't find one.




There is this one:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/genera...-i-have-pdf-finished-rules-i-m-glad-i-do.html

I suspect we will see a few more pop up in the coming month or so. I keep seeing more and more people getting the game and saying positive things about it on various social media platforms.


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## Shag (Jun 4, 2012)

I thank you sir!


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## Lanefan (Jun 5, 2012)

I picked this up on the weekend and on the whole am pretty impressed.

I'd houserule the heck out of it before I ever dropped the puck on a DCCRPG campaign, but it's got some very interesting ideas:

 - the dice chain...elegant simple way of messing with the odds
 - emphasis on small-scale world building
 - variable spell effects...though we'd all probably grow tired of having to check the chart every time a spell got cast
 - the funnel char-gen system...the only obvious flaw here is what happens if each player starts with 4 0-level characters but the only 4 survivors all belong to the same player?

One downside: the DM section seems to assume a high level of pre-existing familiarity with RPGs, and really glosses over a lot of important elements (e.g. tracking of in-game time); having the 1e D&D DMG handy would almost be essential.

Lanefan


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## WheresMyD20 (Jun 5, 2012)

Kunimatyu said:


> If you really want to emulate Appendix N, you drop the Cleric entirely.
> 
> Joe wasn't willing to do that, sadly.




The idea of a character willing to pledge their life and soul to an otherworldly being in exchange for power is very appendix N.

If the term "cleric" seems too D&D, then call them "cultists" or "warlocks" instead.


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## WheresMyD20 (Jun 5, 2012)

Kunimatyu said:


> Absolutely. I was totally on board with a sword-and-sorcery Appendix N reimagination, and got yet another "OSR"-style D&D clone with a few weird house rules.




Appendix N contains more than just sword-and-sorcery.  There's horror, science fiction, and high fantasy mixed in there as well.


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## RevTurkey (Jun 6, 2012)

Hi folks,

The Kickstarter from Brave Halfling that I mentioned in my post above for adventures is gaining pace!

They have just announced a spectacular bonus stretch goal:

"As a natural pessimist, I am hesitant to share my plan for an additional Bonus Goal, but the email requests are already filling my inbox - so I will let all of the supporters know about it first. Five years ago, I spent many months working with Gary Gygax on a unique campaign setting for his game, Lejendary Adventures. We shared back-and-forth almost daily about designing settings, npc races, magic item creation, divine beings, etc. Maps were created and art was commissioned. With Gary's passing and the end of his game, I decided to not release this material. However, from the first time I got to read some of the early DCC RPG play-test material, I knew this campaign setting had found a new home! So my friends, if this kickstarter reaches $15,000, everyone who has pledged $20 or more will also receive a pdf copy and a print copy of, Appendix N Adventure Toolkit #5: "The Old Isle Campaign Setting." This product will include a 11" x 17" color campaign map, a digest Player's and Referee's Guide. While all Appendix N Adventures are generic and can be placed into any campaign, they all do have specific locations in the Old Isle Setting."

So...if you fancy something new in part written by the master himself please consider backing this one 

Appendix N Adventure Toolkits (DCC RPG Modules) by John Adams &mdash; Kickstarter


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## Odhanan (Jun 6, 2012)

RevTurkey said:


> Hi folks,
> 
> The Kickstarter from Brave Halfling that I mentioned in my post above for adventures is gaining pace!
> 
> ...



Hm! VERY Cool!


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## Ravenheart87 (Jun 6, 2012)

The project reached the 2nd bonus goal. This means I'm going to get four adventure modules for my $20, plus a poster. Totally worth it.


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## Odhanan (Jun 7, 2012)

I received the gold foil edition yesterday in the mail. 

These are a few shots I took myself. Just thought it might be useful for people who want to have a better idea of the look and feel of the book.


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## w_earle_wheeler (Jun 8, 2012)

Odhanan said:


>




Thanks for the photos, Odhanan. I wanted to see if the pages had the same greyscale backdrop art that some previous GG products had. I'm glad to see the pages are clean.

However, it looks like the inside margins aren't wide enough for a book this thick. The reader shouldn't have to force the book absolutely flat in order to read the words near the inside.

That just means that I'll probably end up getting it as a .pdf or a softcover, if the option becomes available.


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## Odhanan (Jun 8, 2012)

w_earle_wheeler said:


> However, it looks like the inside margins aren't wide enough for a book this thick. The reader shouldn't have to force the book absolutely flat in order to read the words near the inside.



I do agree the inside margins could have been wider. You don't have to open the book flat to be able to read (I'm reading through the book right now and I'm not damaging the binding at all it seems to me), but I do notice it sometimes, and that's a (very) mild annoyance.


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## Ulrick (Jun 8, 2012)

I haven't been this excited about a new RPG product since about 2005 when I picked up the second edition of Warhammer Fantasy Role Play. I want to play this game _now._

I bought DCC RPG on Wednesday, and I've already read through large chunks of it in no particular order. I've been randomly picking pages and just reading. There's is just so much cool stuff.


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## Aberzanzorax (Jun 23, 2012)

*Not so sure on the timeframe.*

Not so sure on the timeframe.


I bought the special edition on 6/13/2012. I've yet to hear of an update or receive it.

In the meantime, I've placed orders with RPGnow (in print, not just pdf), Paizo, Amazon, and Nobleknight games. All orders AFTER this order have already arrived...and I'm starting to get worried.

In the end, I suspect I'll get the book..and it'l be awesome...but this experience is dropping it "a star" ---potentially from a 5 star product/experience to a 4 star product/experience.


I order a LOT by mail...and I know timing and such...and understand the difficulties of small businesses and so on...including kerfluffles.


But today I just went to look this up (i.e. why the heck it wasn't in my hands yet...and I have no good answer; that's especially concerning when several other small publishers [smaller than goodman] have delivered on their product.)

I'll try to keep people updated on this.



At this point, I am beginning to want to suggest avoiding Goodman as a means of purchasing this, and getting it via Amazon or Paizo (or some other larger, but less direct seller)...which is against my usual philosophy of "buy from the producer".

But, sometimes the producer isn't as reliable or quick as those other venues. I'm not saying that's the case here...but I'm starting to consider that as a possibility, and sharing that concern with the community.



As I said...I'll update, for good or ill, when I have more info.


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## Leif (Jun 23, 2012)

From everything I'm hearing, Goodman is not subject to the foibles that plague WotC and some others.  This is very good.


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## IronWolf (Jun 23, 2012)

Aberzanzorax said:


> I bought the special edition on 6/13/2012. I've yet to hear of an update or receive it.
> 
> In the end, I suspect I'll get the book..and it'l be awesome...but this experience is dropping it "a star" ---potentially from a 5 star product/experience to a 4 star product/experience.
> 
> But today I just went to look this up (i.e. why the heck it wasn't in my hands yet...and I have no good answer; that's especially concerning when several other small publishers [smaller than goodman] have delivered on their product.)




Goodman Games are pretty clear on their shipping policies. 

From their Store Policies page:



			
				Store Policies said:
			
		

> Delivery time: Please allow 2-3 weeks for delivery of USA, Canadian, and UK orders; 4-6 weeks for European orders; and 6-8 weeks for Australia, New Zealand, and other locations. We are currently swamped with orders for DCC RPG and may need an extra week to process your order at this time.




I think the extra week note for DCC RPG was added recently, but I know the 2-3 weeks part has been there for awhile. When I went to order my copy I read their policies and was impatient and ordered from somewhere else that I knew had faster shipping.

Given the delivery time note on their page I wouldn't expect something just yet.

I definitely get the frustration about slow shipping and delivery, but I know they stated this up front on their policy page as that policy page is what led me to see if I could find it someplace else that could ship it to me faster.


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## Ravenheart87 (Jun 25, 2012)

I got my book in time, thanks to the pre-order. Joseph said they have so many orders that delays may happen. Heck, they almost sold out the first printing and a second printing is coming soon.


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## Falstaff (Jun 25, 2012)

*I freakin' love this game!!*


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## IronWolf (Jun 25, 2012)

Ravenheart87 said:


> I got my book in time, thanks to the pre-order. Joseph said they have so many orders that delays may happen. Heck, they almost sold out the first printing and a second printing is coming soon.




Not sure how reliable this site is, but they claim the first printing has sold out. They appear to be a game distribution service, so I take that to mean they have passed along all copies of the book they can get their hands on to their distribution channels. I could be wrong though.


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## Aberzanzorax (Jun 25, 2012)

ANNNNDDDDD... It appears that I just had my cranky pants on.

The book arrived today in pristine condition...IT IS AWESOME.



Maybe I was just overly excited for this one so the wait seemed longer than it was.

-Abe out.


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