# Critical Role Announces Publishing Company



## TheAlkaizer (Oct 27, 2020)

Interesting. I'm curious if they'll stick to non-D&Desque content like that tabletop game or if they'll skirt around what Critical Role is. Seems like a weird situation with the SRD, the fact that Mercer's setting has been officially published by WotC and Critical Role now publishing games.


----------



## Dire Bare (Oct 27, 2020)

TheAlkaizer said:


> Interesting. I'm curious if they'll stick to non-D&Desque content like that tabletop game or if they'll skirt around what Critical Role is. Seems like a weird situation with the SRD, the fact that Mercer's setting has been officially published by WotC and Critical Role now publishing games.



Nothing preventing them from publishing future Critical Role titles under the OGL, or even under special license from WotC. They won't likely reprint the existing two books, originally published by Green Ronin and then WotC.

Seems like a logical evolution with the run-away train success they've had with Critical Role . . . just a group of pals playing D&D, and now a growing gaming & multi-media empire . . .


----------



## Dire Bare (Oct 27, 2020)

The artwork shown for the Uk'otoa game looks gorgeous . . .

Also, the name rung a bell, so I did a quick search, and unsurprisingly found that this is the name of a deity from Critical Role, the patron of Fjord the warlock (one of the PCs). Although, I feel like I've heard the name somewhere else, it sounds possibly Polynesian?!?!


----------



## MGibster (Oct 27, 2020)

Talk about living the dream...


----------



## jerryrice4949 (Oct 27, 2020)

Good for Matt Mercer but that game concept sounds awful.


----------



## orial (Oct 27, 2020)

As we see with the Weis and Hickman debacle, it’s a good idea to publish your own ip. Hope to see more CR products, allthough i think that is allready owned by WOTC/ HASBRO.


----------



## Waller (Oct 27, 2020)

Orion Black has thoughts:


"Here's my (mostly) full thought on Darrington Press and their significance in ttrpg right now. This is largely from a business perspective, not the field of design. That's mostly irrelevant imo, at least atm. This might be a pretty long thread (will be) and wont. be perfect, but.

The first and most important thing is that Darrington Press has enough of a foundation through Critical Role to challenge WotC in the realm of D&D. A lot of people are likely already thinking along these lines, but I'm saying it anyway. WotC should be scared if they arent already

Reasons being, WotC has stepped in major public dogshit many many times this year alone in the D&D world. Their conservative fan base trashes them for being "SJW liberals" and their liberal fanbase is slowly walking away from WotC's milquetoast approach to modern representation.

WotC is and has been outdated for a very long time, but that hasn't mattered because there hasn't been any competition. No company comes close in popularity or funding.

Darrington could surpass WotC in popularity, and quickly. That is a major threat.

One of the major weaknesses of D&D on a business level has been that everyone but WotC have been dictating what's cool about D&D. Critical Role and Dimension 20 are actual modern D&D, with things like TAZ representing the same. WotC makes the content. Everyone else makes it cool.

This isnt assuming that Critical Role is going to stop playing D&D or thay anyone else is. But it is to say that the groups that most D&D fans follow can move away from D&D (as they should) and start making the money that they're currently giving to WotC.

Darrington is a publishing company, so they will likely have a multitude of games under their banner. Combine this with the most popular ttrpg actual play series promoting marketing, and a studio that can produce multiple shows with multiple casts, and you have a competitor.

They're already converting their relationships with talented and experienced people in the smaller/indie ttrpg world to bolster their company from the start. A talent pool of people with skills equal or greater to WotC's who are aligned with modern sensibilities. Lots o potential

But all that said, know that I look at Darrington with the same level of side-eye as I do any company. My relationships with owners, employees, etc, dont largely effect my caution. The actions they take will dictate my feelings, as it does with everything else.

This is a time of outstanding opportunity in ttrpg, and @DarringtonPress could and should invest in diverse leadership. That means leaders of color, disabilities, marginalized genders, bodies, ideals. Finding the best for the job means looking where others do not to find it.

To clarify a bit as well.

I dont think that Darrington will anytime soon be able to compete with WotC in full. CR is a large pillar of support for D&D and that company, and so are the other mentioned APs. Losing support from one, and potentially more, will weaken the giant."


----------



## Morrus (Oct 27, 2020)

orial said:


> Hope to see more CR products, allthough i think that is allready owned by WOTC/ HASBRO.



Critical Role is not owned by WotC.


----------



## MGibster (Oct 27, 2020)

Corrosive said:


> *From Orion Black*  "One of the major weaknesses of D&D on a business level has been that everyone but WotC have been dictating what's cool about D&D. Critical Role and Dimension 20 are actual modern D&D, with things like TAZ representing the same. WotC makes the content. Everyone else makes it cool."



I don't think this is entirely unfair.  I wonder how many people who picked up D&D after watching Critical Role are more CR fans than they are D&D fans.


----------



## Morrus (Oct 27, 2020)

MGibster said:


> I don't think this is entirely unfair.  I wonder how many people who picked up D&D after watching Critical Role are more CR fans than they are D&D fans.



Not that I think it’ll happen any time soon, but in the hypothetical situation where CR changed system to their own fairly light system (which they named Critical Role), we’d certainly find out.  Plus there’s a lot of dissatisfaction with WotC these days, and CR has been (one of many) factors in 5E’s success.


----------



## Wrathamon (Oct 27, 2020)

MGibster said:


> I don't think this is entirely unfair.  I wonder how many people who picked up D&D after watching Critical Role are more CR fans than they are D&D fans.



I dont even know what dimension 20 is


----------



## BRayne (Oct 27, 2020)

Wrathamon said:


> I dont even know what dimension 20 is




Collegehumor/Dropout's Actual Play show


----------



## MGibster (Oct 27, 2020)

Morrus said:


> Not that I think it’ll happen any time soon, but in the hypothetical situation where CR changed system to their own fairly light system (which they named Critical Role), we’d certainly find out. Plus there’s a lot of dissatisfaction with WotC these days, and CR has been (one of many) factors in 5E’s success.




I've always understood on an intellectual level that D&D might not always be top dog, and even though it's hard to envision the mack daddy of games to be knocked off its lofty perch, it's a little easier to picture it now.  D&D became a household name in the 1980s thanks to first one on the block, serious branding efforts, salacious news stories of satanism and suicide.  But things have changed a little over the last 40 years, and Orion's point about people outside of Wizard's making D&D look cool is spot on and these fans might not have much loyalty to D&D.  I'm sure as hell not the future of D&D, young people are.


----------



## Morrus (Oct 27, 2020)

MGibster said:


> I've always understood on an intellectual level that D&D might not always be top dog, and even though it's hard to envision the mack daddy of games to be knocked off its lofty perch, it's a little easier to picture it now.



It's happened before. I don't think a hypothetical CR game would supplant D&D, but I do think it could grab enough of the market that WotC would actually notice.


----------



## MGibster (Oct 27, 2020)

Wrathamon said:


> I dont even know what dimension 20 is



I have come to accept and grown comfortable with the fact that D&D is moving beyond me.  I don't know what it is either.  I don't really get the appeal of something like Critical Role even so I am not the targeted demographic here.


----------



## Ralif Redhammer (Oct 27, 2020)

While Orion Black certainly comes with a chip on their shoulder, as far as I'm aware this has only happened, what, twice? Once with Vampire the Masquerade and once with Pathfinder 1e. For it to happen again would take cultural and mechanical (that is to say, game rules) forces as those previous times did. Is now that time? Considering D&D's continued growth and popularity, I don't think so, but things can change.

And were Critical Role to suddenly switch to their own game system, well, that's be a big unknown. They've pretty much grown to have a symbiotic relationship that enriches them both. That being said, based on what I've seen from the mechanics in the Tal'dorei sourcebook, I don't think rules design is one of Mercer's strengths. Which I suppose is only fair, considering how great he is at the other parts of DMing!



Corrosive said:


> Orion Black has thoughts:
> Darrington could surpass WotC in popularity, and quickly. That is a major threat.


----------



## LuisCarlos17f (Oct 27, 2020)

We shouldn't worry too much about the future of D&D, but maybe WotC should worry about itself. There is something strange. Avalon Hill, what now is going to publish the new edition of Hero Quest, is in this time a separate company. Hasbro has licenced important franchises (little pony, transformers, power rangers and g.i.joe) to other company and not WotC. 

I am afraid WotC is "burn", has suffered a serious wear, lost a lot of prestige by fault of the last controversies. 

This company may become an important rival, and it is good for us, but I think Paizo is closer to become the number one. Months ago I bought the Spanish translated version of Changeling: the Dreaming 20 Anniversary, Starfinder Pact Worlds and Xanathar Guide. With the same prize the other publishers gave me books with more pages. I love 5th Ed, but the books of 3.5 had got more things, more complete. 

I have said the weak point of d20 system is to be universal genre with the right power level. A new d20 Modern but to be totally compatible with D&D isn't so easy. Hasbro knows D&D/d20 may become one of the best cash-cows of the videogame industry. 

In the past I liked to speculate about the future of the entertainment companies, for example the next acquisition by Disney or Hasbro, but we know the world economy has changed totally by fault of the epidemic, and the next year will show us a lot of radical changes, and not about economy. 

And I don't wish to cause troubles, but we know in the entertainment industry some things aren't wellcome, for example lots of players didn't want soldier76 after Blizzard said he was... and this is only an example, but we also know lots of the fandom didn't like too much the last Star Wars trilogy. They have forgotten to be enoughly ideological neutral and they are suffering the consequences. In the business world you never can take opposite the clients if you want her to keep buying your products.


----------



## MarkB (Oct 27, 2020)

> Critical Role Adventures​*Q2 2021*
> Embark on your own journey through Exandria with *Critical Role Adventures*! Play as the upstart adventurers *Vox Machina* and overcome treacherous challenges. This cooperative legacy-lite campaign game uses a unique, narrative mechanic for social and combat encounters, luring you back session after session. Within this enormous box, you’ll find a host of hidden treasures and a rich storybook to guide you through thrilling combat, dynamic character growth, and tales worthy of the name Vox Machina.



"Legacy-lite". I'm not sure exactly how to interpret that, but I'm guessing it means that they've stripped out most of the original game mechanics in order to make this a self-contained game.

There are plenty of RPG-esque boardgames which allow you to play out specific scenarios and present a curated storyline, but while many of them have a lot of flexibility built in and allow you to replay them multiple times, experiencing different scenarios, I haven't heard of many that push it to the extent of character progression and an extended campaign. This sounds like it could be closer to a full-fledged rules-lite RPG system.

I wonder whether it'll include anything that could be repurposed for use in a tabletop game, such as minis of Vox Machina and their opponents, or battlemaps of the scenarios being played out.


----------



## Emirikol Prime (Oct 27, 2020)

Mercer will never screw over D&D.  They’ll dance around the edges and publish things like what they’ve announced.


----------



## MarkB (Oct 27, 2020)

Emirikol Prime said:


> Mercer will never screw over D&D.  They’ll dance around the edges and publish things like what they’ve announced.



Probably - but I wouldn't say certainly. They struggled with high-level play in their previous campaign, and they're getting there in this campaign. The battle in their latest episode had a series of rules mis-recollections, effects being remembered and applied retroactively, and players frozen by decision paralysis due to an excess of options in a difficult situation. They might genuinely appreciate working with a simpler ruleset.

They'll most likely persevere through this campaign until they hit max levels and bring it to a natural conclusion, but where they go after that could be wide open.


----------



## jerryrice4949 (Oct 27, 2020)

MGibster said:


> I don't think this is entirely unfair.  I wonder how many people who picked up D&D after watching Critical Role are more CR fans than they are D&D fans.



Good point.

To be honest I am not sure this is a great idea.  RPG publishing is a low margin business.  Having Green Ronin and then WoTC publish and market their books so they could focus on what they are good at seems the smarter route.  But that is just me.


----------



## Zaukrie (Oct 27, 2020)

I think people active on message boards and Twitter over estimate the impact of controversy on WotC. I bet none of the people I play with even know about them.


----------



## Morrus (Oct 27, 2020)

Zaukrie said:


> I think people active on message boards and Twitter over estimate the impact of controversy on WotC. I bet none of the people I play with even know about them.



Well, they're being sued for $10M by Weis and Hickman because they allege that controversy impacted WotC so much that they walked away from a lucrative trilogy of new Dragonlance books. I'd say controversy impacts WotC and the decisions it makes, and thus impacts the people you play with. I'm surprised, based on the evidence of the last half decade or so, that anybody would think that social media stories _don't_ impact companies.


----------



## MockingBird (Oct 27, 2020)

Zaukrie said:


> I think people active on message boards and Twitter over estimate the impact of controversy on WotC. I bet none of the people I play with even know about them.



I dont even know about all of them and I visit this site daily. Im positive my players don't know about them. In fairness I just look at whats coming out or interesting threads being discussed.


----------



## Zaukrie (Oct 27, 2020)

Morrus said:


> Well, they're being sued for $10M by Weis and Hickman because they allege that controversy impacted WotC so much that they walked away from a lucrative trilogy of new Dragonlance books. I'd say controversy impacts WotC and the decisions it makes, and thus impacts the people you play with. I'm surprised, based on the evidence of the last half decade or so, that anybody would think that social media stories _don't_ impact companies.



I didn't say no impact....I said over estimate.


----------



## Morrus (Oct 27, 2020)

Zaukrie said:


> I didn't say no impact....I said over estimate.



I think it's the opposite. I think most people _under_estimate the impact this stuff has.


----------



## EthanSental (Oct 27, 2020)

Social media attention span is like a gnat....2 weeks later the news cycle is passed to the next hot social topic to talk about.  So I don’t the impact is as lasting or if it does probably depends on the age and demographics.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Oct 27, 2020)

This is no threat to WotC, but it does mean the third party publishers who might have hoped the next Critical Role campaign (the current characters are getting pretty high up there in levels -- if you can now pop into your own pocket dimension tower, complete with magical servant cats to wait on you, you're running out of conventional threats to deal with in D&D) would have a sourcebook published through them are probably out of luck.

I'd guess the next campaign will be on a new continent, so as not to compete with the Green Ronin or WotC sourcebooks and we'll see, eventually, a pretty steady flow of material from them.

Also, Dimension 20 is fantastic. If you only listen to or watch Critical Role, you're missing out on a lot of other great shows with professional performers, like Dimension 20, Not Another D&D Podcast, Nerd Poker etc.


----------



## OblivionDrive (Oct 27, 2020)

MarkB said:


> "Legacy-lite". I'm not sure exactly how to interpret that, but I'm guessing it means that they've stripped out most of the original game mechanics in order to make this a self-contained game.
> 
> There are plenty of RPG-esque boardgames which allow you to play out specific scenarios and present a curated storyline, but while many of them have a lot of flexibility built in and allow you to replay them multiple times, experiencing different scenarios, I haven't heard of many that push it to the extent of character progression and an extended campaign. This sounds like it could be closer to a full-fledged rules-lite RPG system.
> 
> I wonder whether it'll include anything that could be repurposed for use in a tabletop game, such as minis of Vox Machina and their opponents, or battlemaps of the scenarios being played out.



My assumption there is that they mean similar to Legacy games like Risk Legacy, Pandemic Legacy, Betrayal Legacy (from Betrayal at House on the Hill) and games like Seafall, which is to say a boardgame experience that incorporates elements of an ongoing narrative where permanent changes are made to the rules and play materials (cards get ripped up, written on, etc) which ensures that each experience is totally unique and consequences carry through multiple play sessions.

Tl;dr - a boardgame with RPG-like progression and narrative elements where decisions have consequences, but not a rules-lite pen and paper RPG.


----------



## imagineGod (Oct 27, 2020)

With the millions raised by the Critical Role Streaming Kickstarter, I bet everyone and their dog saw this one coming. Congratulations to Mercer and Co.


----------



## Dungeonosophy (Oct 27, 2020)

Hasbro ought to consider getting out of the D&D business, because RPG fans are too savvy, individualized, and, well, "high-demanding" to be effectively served by a large corporation, without PR snafus. I propose that Hasbro sell the entire D&D brand and catalog to Critical Role, Paizo, Modiphius, FFG, and/or Free League.


----------



## imagineGod (Oct 27, 2020)

Dungeonosophy said:


> Hasbro ought to consider getting out of the D&D business, because RPG fans are too savvy, individualized, and, well, "high-demanding" to be effectively served by a large corporation, without PR snafus. I propose that Hasbro sell the entire D&D brand and catalog to Critical Role and/or Paizo.



I do not want to be the anti-corp complainer, but big corporations have this terrible focus on profits above all else, above ethics, above happiness, above community, that I was never happy Hasbro bought out Wizards of the Coast. A similar bad taint happedned when Fantasy Flight Games was sold to Asmodee, which earlier this year just axed the role playing games division.


----------



## Dungeonosophy (Oct 28, 2020)

imagineGod said:


> A similar bad taint happedned when Fantasy Flight Games was sold to Asmodee, which earlier this year just axed the role playing games division.




Okay, I'll nix the FFG idea. ;-D


----------



## Tales and Chronicles (Oct 28, 2020)

Dungeonosophy said:


> Hasbro ought to consider getting out of the D&D business, because RPG fans are too savvy, individualized, and, well, "high-demanding" to be effectively served by a large corporation, without PR snafus. I propose that Hasbro sell the entire D&D brand and catalog to Critical Role, Paizo, Modiphius, FFG, and/or Free League.



I must say...D&D in the hands of Free League would be (probably) absolute awesomeness! Even Modiphius would be a good thing, they put out a lot of high quality stuff...but they would probably make D&D a 2d20 game...


----------



## CubicsRube (Oct 28, 2020)

Well as a Schwalb fanboy, I wish everyone just converted to Shadow of the Demon Lord (Or the upcoming Shadow of the Weird Wizard)...


----------



## Cadence (Oct 28, 2020)

MGibster said:


> I don't think this is entirely unfair.  I wonder how many people who picked up D&D after watching Critical Role are more CR fans than they are D&D fans.




What is CR's viewership?  (Have the vast majority of D&D players never seen an episode or never heard of it?  Or is it the gateway to 5e that most players have seen at least a few episodes of?)


----------



## MerricB (Oct 28, 2020)

MarkB said:


> "Legacy-lite". I'm not sure exactly how to interpret that, but I'm guessing it means that they've stripped out most of the original game mechanics in order to make this a self-contained game.



I'm trying to work out if the "lite" refers to the mechanics or the legacy elements. I tend to suspect the latter.

There are two major ways of approaching story-campaign games at present, one is the full legacy route, where you alter the game permanently as you play, and then you have the more campaign approach where information is hidden, but game components are not destroyed or permanently altered.

I know I play Gloomhaven with removable stickers so that it becomes a campaign game rather than a legacy game. Perhaps that is what they mean by "legacy-lite"?

I think they probably should have proofread their announcement a bit more though: there is no way that Uk'otoa is a "flagship product" - first product, yes. But the centre of their company's strategies? I think not. (Dungeons & Dragons and Magic are flagship products).


----------



## Dire Bare (Oct 28, 2020)

orial said:


> As we see with the Weis and Hickman debacle, it’s a good idea to publish your own ip. Hope to see more CR products, allthough i think that is allready owned by WOTC/ HASBRO.



Apples and oranges.

Dragonlance was never solely W&H's baby, it was designed by committee back in the TSR days. It was both authors first novel, and their break into the world of fantasy novels. They have gone on to write multiple Dragonlance sequel books for TSR and later WotC, plus several of their own worlds/stories (IP) through other publishers. W&H benefitted from their relationship (employment) with TSR greatly, and without it nobody would have ever heard of them. They have never owned Dragonlance, but do own the IP for several other fantasy worlds of their creation . . . none of which have ever achieved the popularity of Dragonlance.

When you decide to write a novel . . . do you create an original world or do you play in somebody else's sandbox? Do you self-publish or go through a major book publisher (gatekeeper)? There is no wrong answer, any path can lead to success and the right one to take varies with the author's needs, wants, and personality. And a huge degree of luck, as with any artistic career.

Is it a good idea to only publish your own IP? Not always. Bad advice.


----------



## Cadence (Oct 28, 2020)

LuisCarlos17f said:


> I am afraid WotC is "burn", has suffered a serious wear, lost a lot of prestige by fault of the last controversies.




The Magic part of WotC is always getting roasted for something on magicTCG reddit and twitter.  If the vast majority of players at large never see the controversy there (don't know the name of who was fired, haven't heard about the artist with the out there views, don't know about the harrassment on the pro tour etc...) does it matter?


----------



## MerricB (Oct 28, 2020)

MarkB said:


> There are plenty of RPG-esque boardgames which allow you to play out specific scenarios and present a curated storyline, but while many of them have a lot of flexibility built in and allow you to replay them multiple times, experiencing different scenarios, I haven't heard of many that push it to the extent of character progression and an extended campaign. This sounds like it could be closer to a full-fledged rules-lite RPG system.




Do these count?

Gloomhaven
Tainted Grail
Descent
Lord of the Rings: Journeys in Middle Earth
Cause all have character progression and extended campaigns.


----------



## MarkB (Oct 28, 2020)

MerricB said:


> I think they probably should have proofread their announcement a bit more though: there is no way that Uk'otoa is a "flagship product" - first product, yes. But the centre of their company's strategies? I think not. (Dungeons & Dragons and Magic are flagship products).



I suspect it may be an attempt to position themselves as non-threateningly as possible, by introducing themselves as being a boardgame company rather than an RPG company. Whether that's true, and whether anyone believes it, time will tell.


----------



## MarkB (Oct 28, 2020)

MerricB said:


> Do these count?
> 
> Gloomhaven
> Tainted Grail
> ...



Thanks, my knowledge of the boardgame market is limited, and somewhat out of date these days.


----------



## MGibster (Oct 28, 2020)

Cadence said:


> What is CR's viewership?  (Have the vast majority of D&D players never seen an episode or never heard of it?  Or is it the gateway to 5e that most players have seen at least a few episodes of?)



I just glanced at some of their videos on Youtube, and we're talking about millions of views for videos that are two years old.  The Chase Begins, Campaign 2, Episode 112 was released a week ago and has 717,000 views as of the time of this post.  I may not watch them, but they're clearly a force to be reckoned with.


----------



## Cadence (Oct 28, 2020)

Morrus said:


> I think it's the opposite. I think most people _under_estimate the impact this stuff has.



Is there a critical threshhold for the social media stuff where it hits the main stream media?   Having an upset employee vent on twitter and not getting tractions vs. an upset employee venting on twitter and the story getting traction and showing up in google news...


----------



## MerricB (Oct 28, 2020)

MarkB said:


> I suspect it may be an attempt to position themselves as non-threateningly as possible, by introducing themselves as being a boardgame company rather than an RPG company. Whether that's true, and whether anyone believes it, time will tell.





MarkB said:


> Thanks, my knowledge of the boardgame market is limited, and somewhat out of date these days.



I am very heavily invested into boardgames at the moment, and there are some companies that have started recently that are making waves with incredibly innovative designs and well supported on Kickstarter. Awaken Realms (who make Tainted Grail, Nemesis, and Etherfields) are one that I definitely watch, and they do story-telling games with character progression VERY well.

Gloomhaven is the #1 game on Boardgamegeek, and its sequel, Frosthaven, raised over $12 million on Kickstarter. That features dungeon crawling, character advancement, a linked (branching campaign) of about 90 scenarios, and strong tactical gameplay.

And then there's Serious Poulp and their "Seventh Continent" and "Seventh Citadel" games, the latter raised almost $4 million on Kickstarter, which also come into the same ballpark as Critical Role Adventures.

(Also consider Clank Legacy: Acquisitions Incorporated, and the Pathfinder Adventure Card Game). 

Do I think Critical Role Adventures could do well? Yes, I do. But the pricetag may be hefty based on their description.

The other products seem no more than curiosities.


----------



## Cadence (Oct 28, 2020)

MGibster said:


> I just glanced at some of their videos on Youtube, and we're talking about millions of views for videos that are two years old.  The Chase Begins, Campaign 2, Episode 112 was released a week ago and has 717,000 views as of the time of this post.  I may not watch them, but they're clearly a force to be reckoned with.




I'm always amazed about the Minecraft Youtubers.  Looking at what my son watches, Little Lizard has 4.1 million subscribers, Preston has 15 million subscribers and 90 million views this past month.  And then there's the toy unboxers and random gamers -- I just have no idea what counts as popular.
[Edit: He doesn't watch thsi one, but Ryan's World has 26.9M subscribers, and the videos from today, 2 days ago, and the 3 day old video has 853k views; one of his 5 year old unboxing videos has 1B views].

What's the current estimate of how many D&D players there are?


----------



## MerricB (Oct 28, 2020)

Cadence said:


> I'm always amazed about the Minecraft Youtubers.  Looking at what my son watches, Little Lizard has 4.1 million subscribers, Preston has 15 million subscribers and 90 million views this past month.  And then there's the toy unboxers and random gamers -- I just have no idea what counts as popular.
> 
> What's the current estimate of how many D&D players there are?




Google says 13.7 million. Take that with a grain of salt.

Wizards said 40 million players have played the game over its lifetime.


----------



## Cadence (Oct 28, 2020)

MerricB said:


> Google says 13.7 million. Take that with a grain of salt.
> 
> Wizards said 40 million players have played the game over its lifetime.




So a million Critical Role subscribers is nothing to sneeze at!   Credit them with some more who watch but don't subscribe and say the D&D player estimate is optimistic and that could be somewhere in the 10-20% range.


----------



## OblivionDrive (Oct 28, 2020)

Cadence said:


> So a million Critical Role subscribers is nothing to sneeze at!   Credit them with some more who watch but don't subscribe and say the D&D player estimate is optimistic and that could be somewhere in the 10-20% range.



Yeah I think the live viewers on each week's episode when it airs are somewhere in the zone of like 50-80k folks? But they also air in a timeslot that isn't especially conducive to folks overseas watching live so I would imagine a good chunk of their international viewership just watches the VOD when it hits Youtube. Even for folks on the east coast of the US, staying up from 10pm-2am can often be a trial, so...


----------



## MerricB (Oct 28, 2020)

The difference between "has a fanbase" and "fanbase buys products" is pretty significant, alas.


----------



## Levistus's_Leviathan (Oct 28, 2020)

MerricB said:


> The difference between "has a fanbase" and "fanbase buys products" is pretty significant, alas.



Explorer's Guide to Wildemount was an Amazon bestseller. I don't know how well the Tal'dorei Campaign Setting did, but based on how well EGtW did, I would say that Critical Role has a "fanbase that buys products."


----------



## Dire Bare (Oct 28, 2020)

AcererakTriple6 said:


> Explorer's Guide to Wildemount was an Amazon bestseller. I don't know how well the Tal'dorei Campaign Setting did, but based on how well EGtW did, I would say that Critical Role has a "fanbase that buys products."



Not trying to discount the influence and fanbase of CR, but . . .

Some folks bought the Wildemount book because it's a Critical Role book. Some folks purchased it because it was a D&D book. Of course, some purchased it because it was both!

So, gauging the purchasing power of CR fans on that book is iffy . . . . but, there's no doubt that CR is popular, successful, and is moving product!


----------



## Khelon Testudo (Oct 28, 2020)

I would have thought their 11m Kickstarter would convince that they have a "fanbase that buys products". Funko-Pop wouldn't have made the Vox Machina figures if they didn't.


----------



## Cadence (Oct 28, 2020)

AcererakTriple6 said:


> Explorer's Guide to Wildemount was an Amazon bestseller. I don't know how well the Tal'dorei Campaign Setting did, but based on how well EGtW did, I would say that Critical Role has a "fanbase that buys products."




As a D&D product anyway...


----------



## Khelon Testudo (Oct 28, 2020)

Oh yeah, MacFarlane Toys made a 12" Mollymauk action figure.


----------



## Levistus's_Leviathan (Oct 28, 2020)

Dire Bare said:


> Not trying to discount the influence and fanbase of CR, but . . .
> 
> Some folks bought the Wildemount book because it's a Critical Role book. Some folks purchased it because it was a D&D book. Of course, some purchased it because it was both!
> 
> So, gauging the purchasing power of CR fans on that book is iffy . . . . but, there's no doubt that CR is popular, successful, and is moving product!



I bought it because it was a Critical Role D&D book, so I bought it for both reasons. 
Also, this:


Khelon Testudo said:


> I would have thought their 11m Kickstarter would convince that they have a "fanbase that buys products". Funko-Pop wouldn't have made the Vox Machina figures if they didn't.


----------



## OblivionDrive (Oct 28, 2020)

AcererakTriple6 said:


> Explorer's Guide to Wildemount was an Amazon bestseller. I don't know how well the Tal'dorei Campaign Setting did, but based on how well EGtW did, I would say that Critical Role has a "fanbase that buys products."



To say nothing of the fact that most any new spiffy product they put up on their own online store generally sells out within hours on the first day.

Preorders for their Funko Pop line? Out of stock the first day.
$100 McFarlane Toys Mollymauk statue? First day.
Recently put up a $75 Vax'ildan cloak that was available in sizes from XS all the way to 6XL? Every. Single. Size. Sold out.

Critters spend money. Trust me.


----------



## Khelon Testudo (Oct 28, 2020)

Oh, and I forgot: 28mm figures of both Vox Machina and Mighty Nein.


----------



## darjr (Oct 28, 2020)

Well, whatever, I think it’ll be good for the industry and the hobby

This also with MCDM slowly getting ready out there is cool.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Oct 28, 2020)

Cadence said:


> What is CR's viewership?  (Have the vast majority of D&D players never seen an episode or never heard of it?  Or is it the gateway to 5e that most players have seen at least a few episodes of?)



1.07 million subscribers on YouTube and last week's episode had 721,000 views. (Not counting me, as I listen to them as a podcast.)

I think it's generational. It's likely they're the dominant entry point for the streaming generation folks, but whether that constitutes even a majority of the Gen Z players, it's hard to know.

But they have a _lot _of fans.

I suspect WotC has a guess as to whether streaming or Stranger Things was responsible for a bigger bump in current playership, based on when the sales spikes came. Either way, they're likely a significant driver of sales traffic.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Oct 28, 2020)

Khelon Testudo said:


> I would have thought their 11m Kickstarter would convince that they have a "fanbase that buys products". Funko-Pop wouldn't have made the Vox Machina figures if they didn't.



It's worth noting that Funko has never made Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy figures, and that's a geek franchise that's so omnipresent in the UK that newspaper articles casually drop in references to things like "so long, and thanks for all the fish" in mainstream articles.

So, Funko's market research folks think CR's commercial appeal is pretty significant.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Oct 28, 2020)

Cadence said:


> Is there a critical threshhold for the social media stuff where it hits the main stream media?   Having an upset employee vent on twitter and not getting tractions vs. an upset employee venting on twitter and the story getting traction and showing up in google news...



If there is, it hasn't been figured out yet. That's the holy grail for PR and marketing.


----------



## doctorbadwolf (Oct 28, 2020)

Wrathamon said:


> I dont even know what dimension 20 is



Trust me, a huge portion of the D&D fanbase Does. 


Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> Also, Dimension 20 is fantastic. If you only listen to or watch Critical Role, you're missing out on a lot of other great shows with professional performers, like Dimension 20, Not Another D&D Podcast, Nerd Poker etc.



NADDPOD (we are we are) is possibly the best D&D podcast out there, IMO. Season 1 is absolutely up there with CR or TAZ Balance. 


Cadence said:


> What is CR's viewership?  (Have the vast majority of D&D players never seen an episode or never heard of it?  Or is it the gateway to 5e that most players have seen at least a few episodes of?)



Social media and good search results indicate it’s a pretty big overlap. 


OblivionDrive said:


> Recently put up a $75 Vax'ildan cloak that was available in sizes from XS all the way to 6XL? Every. Single. Size. Sold out.



Ugh seriously. I went to buy one and it was just gone. Very bummed. Maybe after Xmas, if they’re still selling it.


----------



## LuisCarlos17f (Oct 28, 2020)

Hasbro's plans about D&D aren't only about the TTRPGs, but it is a serious project as multimedia franchise. Hasbro is not going to reject D&D because this can be useful to sell videogames, novels, comics, videogames, and media productions.

My complain about the 5th Ed. is they books are too expensive. I mean spending the same money in other sourcebooks by other publishers I have got books with more pages. Xanathar's guide was 50 €, but also this was my Changeling: the dreaming 20 Anniversary, and this with the rest of WoD 20 Anniversary Editions are one of the fattest RPG books I have bought. If the books are too expensive they will suffer the piracy, the illegal copies. If I buy D&D books it's because I want WotC to keep publishing more books. And I am a collector, not a true player.

D&D is not ready yet for crossovers of franchises set in modern age.


----------



## MichaelSomething (Oct 28, 2020)

Where are all the people saying "Good riddance!"?  I thought a bunch of people didn't want Critical Role in D&D?


----------



## OblivionDrive (Oct 28, 2020)

doctorbadwolf said:


> NADDPOD (we are we are) is possibly the best D&D podcast out there, IMO. Season 1 is absolutely up there with CR or TAZ Balance.





doctorbadwolf said:


> Ugh seriously. I went to buy one and it was just gone. Very bummed. Maybe after Xmas, if they’re still selling it.



Hey! A fellow 2 Crew member! (The youth of a nation!)

And yeah I’m not gonna lie, I struck while the iron was hot because I knew they’d sell out. It came in about a week ago and it’s waaay warmer than I anticipated. Probably gonna be my default cool weather gear this year or at least a Snuggie-lite for when it’s chilly around the house. I’m sure they’ll be back in stock eventually though!


----------



## Khelon Testudo (Oct 28, 2020)

MichaelSomething said:


> Where are all the people saying "Good riddance!"?  I thought a bunch of people didn't want Critical Role in D&D?



That implies Crit Role are going anywhere soon. The current campaign probably has over a year to go, maybe 2. And they've built up strong relationships with both D&D-adjacent companies and WotC itself. They'd be stupid to dump them, and I don't think anyone can call them stupid.


----------



## LuisCarlos17f (Oct 28, 2020)

I guess Darrington Press will want to become a second Paizo, but to replace WotC is too ambitious, and now harder when D&D is in its best age, selling more books than ever. Pathfinder arrived when D&D was in the 4th Ed. I doubt Matt Spencer dared to become WotC's enemy.

But Darrington Press could try to occupy some genres where D&D isn't yet, for example no-medieval fantasy, steampunk, space-fantasy, urban-fantasy, superheroes, etc..

Even in the worst case the end of WotC wouldn't mean the end of D&D at all, because Hasbro notices this franchise can be useful to make money.


----------



## MerricB (Oct 28, 2020)

Khelon Testudo said:


> I would have thought their 11m Kickstarter would convince that they have a "fanbase that buys products". Funko-Pop wouldn't have made the Vox Machina figures if they didn't.



There's a big difference between a game and an animated film.

And then you take another step beyond a RPG (which is what Critical Role depicts) onto a board game.

Honestly, I hope they succeed. But it will be tough. POPs are memorabilia; they do not require interaction. I have seen a LOT of licensed board games over the past decade and more just crash and burn - and some were good games by well known companies.

Consider how big a fan base the MARVEL movies have. More people saw those than watch Critical Role, right? Then how have the various Marvel RPGs and Board Games gone? Decently, for the most part, but the numbers of fans do not correspond to incredible sales of the games. (I wonder if the sales of POP figures outstrip those of the boardgames?)

I expect their first couple of games will sell well as people are curious about what they're selling. After that, it depends how good their games are AND how much the market wants them.

It is not like a new company cannot succeed. Look at Awaken Realms. Look at Stonemaier Games. But it is not a given.


----------



## MGibster (Oct 28, 2020)

MerricB said:


> Consider how big a fan base the MARVEL movies have. More people saw those than watch Critical Role, right? Then how have the various Marvel RPGs and Board Games gone? Decently, for the most part, but the numbers of fans do not correspond to incredible sales of the games. (I wonder if the sales of POP figures outstrip those of the boardgames?)



I think there's a big difference between the Marvel movies and Critical Role in that the vast majority of people who watched Winter Soldier did not play role playing games and were unlikely to have any interest in playing them.  CR's audience is certainly much smaller than anything Marvel has produced, but I'd wager that a higher percentage of those who watch CR either play role playing games or are interested in playing them.  The audience is smaller, but it's more focused.


----------



## wicked cool (Oct 28, 2020)

At some point soon critical role will be launching on amazon so I expect popularity to expand. Matt needs to package the campaigns as adventures/ Campaign 2 is great. He deserves everything he gets. He is by far the best DM on youtube and may have the best players on youtube etc 

Was the Dragonlance deal really a lucrative deal for both? Not sure how well new stories would do. the Franchise was hanging around after Time of the Twins with some spinoffs doing well such as Huma and Soth getting a fight with Strahd  

We are at the height of D&D and its all due to WOTC. We are also at the height of skirmish games. Warhammer/Magic however still dominate my local scene. I haven't invested in gloomhaven but I did invest in Rangers of Shadowdeep/Frostgrave. the problem with all of these skirmish games is that many will get buried. I believe the Fallout games & even the elder scroll games will get destroyed due to cost and clunky rules

Anyone else go the their game store and see the hundreds of games sitting there like used car lots and the costs of these games are insane. $80+ for games and sometimes $80 for expansions and there is no activity around them (hellboy, zombicide etc). Instead the D&D section and the purchasing of magic cards are hot sellers 

Not seeing or really hearing a large percentage turning against WOTC. If anything i'm hearing the louder voices saying it needs to be more progressive? 

I will take my big corporation as long as I can . they are clearly spending like crazy right now


----------



## whimsychris123 (Oct 28, 2020)

Wow.  A lot of speculation here.  The End of Wizards!  The fall of D&D!

So far they're planning to put out a card game and an RPG about magical-wielding gangsters.

I enjoy speculation as much as the next guy, but this feels like a stretch.  Maybe I'm wrong and someday Mercer will be President of the United States.  But until then, I'm going to start imagining The Godfather with _fireball_.  "I'm going to cast a _command_ spell he can't refuse."


----------



## hawkeyefan (Oct 28, 2020)

MGibster said:


> I think there's a big difference between the Marvel movies and Critical Role in that the vast majority of people who watched Winter Soldier did not play role playing games and were unlikely to have any interest in playing them.  CR's audience is certainly much smaller than anything Marvel has produced, but I'd wager that a higher percentage of those who watch CR either play role playing games or are interested in playing them.  The audience is smaller, but it's more focused.




So instead of RPGs let’s look at the Marvel movies compared to their source material, the Marvel comics. The movies are the biggest films around, reaching an audience in the tens of millions. 

The comics are ecstatic if they can sell 50,000 copies. 

And the success of the movies seems to have little impact on the comics. 

Now, this is still not a perfect analogy by any means. But I do think there are plenty of CR viewers who don’t actually play RPGs. Is it as significant a percentage of Marvel movie fans who haven’t read a comic in decades? No, but I think it’s safe to say that success in one medium is not the same as success in another.

CR has done a very good job of building their brand and expanding. This seems to me just another step. I don't think they’re trying to compete directly with WotC, which is still their partner, but just a logical expansion. 

Could it become some kind of competition down the road? Sure, seems possible. But that’d likely be good for the fans.


----------



## BigZebra (Oct 28, 2020)

Zaukrie said:


> I think people active on message boards and Twitter over estimate the impact of controversy on WotC. I bet none of the people I play with even know about them.



Could not agree more. People in the Twitter-sphere seriously overestimate these controversies’ impact on most RPGers who have never visited a message board for RPG, or have any idea who Chris Perkins is. Many people just play and that’s that.
And since it’s such a niche hobby, none of yelling leaves Twitter.


----------



## hawkeyefan (Oct 28, 2020)

Yeah, who's ever heard of people losing business due to an uproar on Twitter?


----------



## MGibster (Oct 28, 2020)

hawkeyefan said:


> Now, this is still not a perfect analogy by any means. But I do think there are plenty of CR viewers who don’t actually play RPGs. Is it as significant a percentage of Marvel movie fans who haven’t read a comic in decades? No, but I think it’s safe to say that success in one medium is not the same as success in another.



I would never argue that success is guaranteed in most situations.  And I will certainly agree that that there are likely plenty of CR viewers who don't play RPGs.  But when you're marketing, you don't expect everyone in the audience to make a purchase for what you're selling.  My argument is that CR's audience as a whole is much more likely to be interested in RPGs or other games than the audience for the Marvel movies.  



hawkeyefan said:


> CR has done a very good job of building their brand and expanding. This seems to me just another step. I don't think they’re trying to compete directly with WotC, which is still their partner, but just a logical expansion.



I don't believe Paizo had any intention of competing directly against WotC when they published their Rise of the Runelords campaign, but a direct competitor they became and by many accounts their Pathfinder game was outselling D&D during the 4th edition years.  




hawkeyefan said:


> Could it become some kind of competition down the road? Sure, seems possible. But that’d likely be good for the fans.



That's what Orion Black's point was.  WotC should be worried because the CR people may directly compete with them at some point in the future.  Personally, I like having a lot of choice in what games to play and I agree with you that it's good for the fans.  I've always argued that D&D has to change in order to stay relevant to its fans (even if I don't like all the changes myself).


----------



## hawkeyefan (Oct 28, 2020)

MGibster said:


> I would never argue that success is guaranteed in most situations.  And I will certainly agree that that there are likely plenty of CR viewers who don't play RPGs.  But when you're marketing, you don't expect everyone in the audience to make a purchase for what you're selling.  My argument is that CR's audience as a whole is much more likely to be interested in RPGs or other games than the audience for the Marvel movies.
> 
> 
> I don't believe Paizo had any intention of competing directly against WotC when they published their Rise of the Runelords campaign, but a direct competitor they became and by many accounts their Pathfinder game was outselling D&D during the 4th edition years.
> ...




I largely agree.....didn't mean to come across as disagreeing strongly. Just that success in one area doesn't always carry over to others. I would agree that CR fans are more likely to play or try RPGs, too. 

And I agree about choice. If Darrington Press is successful enough to actually become a competitor of WotC and D&D, I'd be ecstatic. Maybe they'll be able help shift the mainstream a bit so that the audience is more open to things beyond D&D and its derivatives. For instance, Syndicult sounds potentially interesting.....I like that their first attempt at a RPG has nothing to do with Exandria or anything else D&D.


----------



## Ralif Redhammer (Oct 28, 2020)

Hard to say, though it's certainly has a massive following. For my part, in my one group that skews older, I'd say maybe half don't even know what Critical Role is or are only minimally aware of it. In my other group, that is a bit younger, everyone knows what Critical Role is, and some are big fans. I've even seen some blurring between what is considered Critical Role canon and what is considered D&D canon by some.



Cadence said:


> What is CR's viewership?  (Have the vast majority of D&D players never seen an episode or never heard of it?  Or is it the gateway to 5e that most players have seen at least a few episodes of?)


----------



## Mercurius (Oct 28, 2020)

Morrus said:


> Well, they're being sued for $10M by Weis and Hickman because they allege that controversy impacted WotC so much that they walked away from a lucrative trilogy of new Dragonlance books. I'd say controversy impacts WotC and the decisions it makes, and thus impacts the people you play with. I'm surprised, based on the evidence of the last half decade or so, that anybody would think that social media stories _don't_ impact companies.



While I agree that controversies have an impact, where I agree with @Zaukrie (although don't want to speak for them), is that I don't think the majority of D&D players care about the controversies, or have a strong opinion either way, or even if they are aware of them at all. Most just...play D&D.

Similar to Black's comments about liberals and conservatives, as if all D&D fans can be so neatly categorized on one side of the political spectrum. And even if they are, they don't necessarily care or have the same level of upset about the controversies as Black implies (e.g. not all liberals are upset about WotC's "milquetoast" attitude, and not all conservatives are raging against every change to their game). Most D&D players seem rather happy with WotC, or happy enough to keep driving record sales, and just want to play.

Now more generally speaking, what I find interesting about this is the choice of name: Darrington Press. Why not Critical Role Publishing? Wouldn't that give them more automatic sales? I wonder what the reasoning is behind this; maybe they don't want to step on WotC's toes, as Critical Role has a strong relationship with them and starting a self-named publishing company might be viewed as overt competition, rather than the more covert competition of Darrington.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Oct 28, 2020)

Khelon Testudo said:


> That implies Crit Role are going anywhere soon. The current campaign probably has over a year to go, maybe 2.



I DM a lot of games (four ongoing campaigns during the pandemic). I cannot imagine two more years at or above this power level.


----------



## wicked cool (Oct 28, 2020)

since 5E could we argue that pathfinder has lost steam?


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Oct 28, 2020)

Mercurius said:


> Now more generally speaking, what I find interesting about this is the choice of name: Darrington Press. Why not Critical Role Publishing? Wouldn't that give them more automatic sales? I wonder what the reasoning is behind this; maybe they don't want to step on WotC's toes, as Critical Role has a strong relationship with them and starting a self-named publishing company might be viewed as overt competition, rather than the more covert competition of Darrington.



I think they just want to have a company beyond Critical Role, both to expand beyond the audience and to outlive the streaming show. Very few companies are named after their biggest product.


----------



## Mercurius (Oct 28, 2020)

wicked cool said:


> since 5E could we argue that pathfinder has lost steam?



It is hard to say, because it may simply be that Pathfinder doesn't loom as large in a relative sense. Let's say they rose to a popularity of "5" at the point where they surpassed D&D in sales (2012-13, I believe). Even if they plateaued and stayed a "5," D&D burst back onto the scene in 2014 as a "7" and rose to a "10" over the next few years. So now Pathfinder looks small in comparison.

(All numbers are just used as an analogy and not meant to signify anything other than to illustrate the point).

I am also unclear as to how P2 has impacted sales. Presumably they're still going strong, but I imagine some unhappy P1 players either opted out or returned to the D&D fold. Either way, Paizo still seems to have a diehard core base that drives sales, so they're doing fine.


----------



## LuisCarlos17f (Oct 28, 2020)

I guess Darrington Press will want a relation with WotC as Hasbro and River Horse or Renegade studios.  Something like frenemy or rival-partner, or a outsourcer for licences.

To be a true rival of WotC Darrington Press had to publish its own TTRPG and this would need a lot of time if we talk about a general fantasy genre without links with a previous franchise (Batman, Hellboy, Terminator?).


----------



## Morrus (Oct 28, 2020)

LuisCarlos17f said:


> if we talk about a general fantasy genre without links with a previous franchise (Batman, Hellboy, Terminator?).



... Critical Role?


----------



## hawkeyefan (Oct 28, 2020)

Mercurius said:


> While I agree that controversies have an impact, where I agree with @Zaukrie (although don't want to speak for them), is that I don't think the majority of D&D players care about the controversies, or have a strong opinion either way, or even if they are aware of them at all. Most just...play D&D.




I agree with that in a lot of ways. Of my group, I'm the only one who regularly follows up on RPG news and the like. And although I'm aware of the controversies that have popped up, that doesn't mean I always have a strong opinion about them. Some seem more meaningful than others, some resonate with me, some don't.

The rest of the players in my group have no idea of what's going on behind the scenes with D&D or the larger RPG world.


Mercurius said:


> Similar to Black's comments about liberals and conservatives, as if all D&D fans can be so neatly categorized on one side of the political spectrum. And even if they are, they don't necessarily care or have the same level of upset about the controversies as Black implies (e.g. not all liberals are upset about WotC's "milquetoast" attitude, and not all conservatives are raging against every change to their game). Most D&D players seem rather happy with WotC, or happy enough to keep driving record sales, and just want to play.




While this is true, there is also a vocal section of the fanbase that is demanding change. That one portion of this fanbase is unaware of the requests of another portion doesn't really matter.....because WotC seems to be aware and seems to be adjusting in response. They may not always adjust in a way that many would consider the "right" way, but they are responding. Which most likely means that they think it is good for business to do so. 

Disclaimers on older products, adjustments in many longstanding elements such as racial characteristics for PCs, attempts to portray more diversity among the casts of characters in their products, attempts to diversify their design team......they've done all these things, to some extent, and in each case there has been a loud outcry from parts of the fanbase.



Mercurius said:


> Now more generally speaking, what I find interesting about this is the choice of name: Darrington Press. Why not Critical Role Publishing? Wouldn't that give them more automatic sales? I wonder what the reasoning is behind this; maybe they don't want to step on WotC's toes, as Critical Role has a strong relationship with them and starting a self-named publishing company might be viewed as overt competition, rather than the more covert competition of Darrington.




I think so that they can offer things that have nothing to do with Critical Role. They can create new games or supplements for existing games that don't connect to the world established in Critical Role. They can always slap a "from the creators of Critical Role" label on a product if they think that will help, but the name of their publishing company being more neutral is probably just a way to broaden expectations.


----------



## LuisCarlos17f (Oct 28, 2020)

I am wondering why not Disney produce its own game-live show podcast as CR. They have hire lots of young aspiring actors. Although I suggest to add a virtual tabletop because it gives a better look on the screen.

Today technically Exandria(CR) is within D&D, and I am OK about this totally. 

We can't forget D&D Beyond is one of the sponsors. And the day WotC wanted to publish a no-D&D game (for example Gamma World or a new d20 Modern) CR would be a perfect tool to promote it.  

I haven't watched it, because my level of oral English isn't enough to understand and enjoy.


----------



## Stacie GmrGrl (Oct 28, 2020)

I'd like to see Matt Mercer do a new full length rpg campaign that's NOT D&D. I think that's the only way to see if the Mercer Effect was real or if it only appears to be a real thing for some people who love D&D so much.

Syndicult sounds like lots of fun. I won't watch them play D&D, but I'd watch them play this game. Set the game in the Roaring 20s and play Chicago mobsters.


----------



## Zarithar (Oct 28, 2020)

Zaukrie said:


> I think people active on message boards and Twitter over estimate the impact of controversy on WotC. I bet none of the people I play with even know about them.



This. Also most of the folks screaming on Twitter when it comes to D&D remain largely unheard by the majority of the player base. I wish CR success with this venture. I enjoyed the Wildemount book and am a fringe fan of Mercer and CR in that I appreciate what they've done for the hobby overall but have not watched many episodes of CR.


----------



## Rikka66 (Oct 28, 2020)

LuisCarlos17f said:


> I am wondering why not Disney produce its own game-live show podcast as CR. They have hire lots of young aspiring actors. Although I suggest to add a virtual tabletop because it gives a better look on the screen.




Disney is all about tightly controlled images. An RP experience isn't conducive to that.

And virtual tabletops aren't all that for spectators, really. Better than a simple hand done map, sure, but you're hypothetical example would have the opportunity to use figures, detailed maps, or fancy terrain items and models. Add the right camera angles and you have something way more visually appealing than virtual tabletops.


----------



## Morrus (Oct 28, 2020)

Mercurius said:


> While I agree that controversies have an impact, where I agree with @Zaukrie (although don't want to speak for them), is that I don't think the majority of D&D players care about the controversies, or have a strong opinion either way, or even if they are aware of them at all. Most just...play D&D.



I was responding to "I think people active on message boards and Twitter over estimate the impact of controversy on WotC" -- and the recent Dragonlance lawsuit, at least according to Weis and Hickman, makes it very clear that social media controversies have a very marked impact on WotC to the extent that they change their product plans, change their hiring policies, alter existing books, cancel trilogies of Dragonlance novels, back out of large licensing contracts, and more.

Whether the average player knows about all this isn't germane to my point. The the average game _is_ affected by it, whether they know it or not, as these things are deciding what books end up at the average gamer's table.


----------



## MarkB (Oct 28, 2020)

Rikka66 said:


> Disney is all about tightly controlled images. An RP experience isn't conducive to that.
> 
> And virtual tabletops aren't all that for spectators, really. Better than a simple hand done map, sure, but you're hypothetical example would have the opportunity to use figures, detailed maps, or fancy terrain items and models. Add the right camera angles and you have something way more visually appealing than virtual tabletops.



Some of the 3D virtual tabletops are getting pretty visually impressive these days. But given Disney's roots, probably the more likely approach for them would be something like Titansgrave - pre-recorded, edited down, and then with semi-animated visuals to enhance the experience. that would let them keep some of that tight control.


That's time-intensive, though, and you lose the immediacy of a live-streamed show - essentially you'd be producing them a season at a time in advance of airing even a single episode. Disney could support something like that, but would they get a good return on their investment?


----------



## Jiggawatts (Oct 29, 2020)

Cadence said:


> The Magic part of WotC is always getting roasted for something on magicTCG reddit and twitter.  If the vast majority of players at large never see the controversy there (don't know the name of who was fired, haven't heard about the artist with the out there views, don't know about the harrassment on the pro tour etc...) does it matter?



Can confirm. Personally I am the only member of the two RPG groups I am in that really follows forums/news. None of them are aware of the Dragonlance thing, former employee complaints, or any of the goings on at WotC this year. The market share is so much vastly larger than the people who care/follow these things. It is as it always is, twitter/forums/etc are the vocal minority.


----------



## MNblockhead (Oct 29, 2020)

I would be surprised if Critical Role every takes its flagship series out of D&D or develops a kitchen-sink fantasy RPG to compete directly with WotC.  It would be shooting themselves in the foot. Yes there are hardcore critter fans that will buy whatever CR puts out and there are gaming enthusiasts who will buy the games if the games are good, but there is also a large group of fans who are equally or more invested in D&D as they are in CR.  Either folks like me who became interested in CR because it was an excellent D&D live play, or folks who came to D&D through CR but now have invested a significant amount of time and money in the system.

Besides these are all Hollywood folk.  These games are likely to be no more than vanity projects in comparison to the money they will make from their cartoons and the further business deals that this will open for them in Hollywood.  As part of that vision, they would want to avoid antagonizing Hasbro as they could potential enter into lucrative toy deals based on their properties.


----------



## Mercurius (Oct 29, 2020)

Morrus said:


> I was responding to "I think people active on message boards and Twitter over estimate the impact of controversy on WotC" -- and the recent Dragonlance lawsuit, at least according to Weis and Hickman, makes it very clear that social media controversies have a very marked impact on WotC to the extent that they change their product plans, change their hiring policies, alter existing books, cancel trilogies of Dragonlance novels, back out of large licensing contracts, and more.
> 
> Whether the average player knows about all this isn't germane to my point. The the average game _is_ affected by it, whether they know it or not, as these things are deciding what books end up at the average gamer's table.



OK, fair enough. I would take it a step further: when people complain loud enough, even in small numbers, it potentially has an impact on a lot of people, say, fans of Dragonlance. But the impact it has on WotC is largely up to them. I'm sure they have their reasons for whatever publishing choices they make, but it is a shame that fans of the game suffer for it, perhaps especially fans of one of the classic settings that hasn't seen a lot of love in recent years.


----------



## wicked cool (Oct 29, 2020)

Just curious as im a little older. Is the twitter mob that is demanding change under the WOTC twitter feed? Its not making mainstream/less than mainstream news  (changing voice actors in Hollywood such as simpsons is mainstream)


----------



## Morrus (Oct 29, 2020)

wicked cool said:


> Just curious as im a little older. Is the twitter mob that is demanding change under the WOTC twitter feed? Its not making mainstream/less than mainstream news  (changing voice actors in Hollywood such as simpsons is mainstream)



It's D&D, not the Simpsons. It's less niche than it used to be, but it's never going to be the Simpsons.


----------



## zhivik (Oct 29, 2020)

MarkB said:


> "Legacy-lite". I'm not sure exactly how to interpret that, but I'm guessing it means that they've stripped out most of the original game mechanics in order to make this a self-contained game.



I believe "legacy-lite" is used in the meaning used by board games, not tabletop RPGs. The way I read it is that the game will have some mechanics to change how the campaign plays depending on player choice, but it won't be a permanent change - so no destruction of components, putting stickers on the board/other game elements, etc. I may be interpreting this wrong, of course, but out of the four games announced, only one is explicitly labeled as a tabletop RPG.


----------



## Dire Bare (Oct 29, 2020)

MNblockhead said:


> I would be surprised if Critical Role every takes its flagship series out of D&D or develops a kitchen-sink fantasy RPG to compete directly with WotC.  It would be shooting themselves in the foot. Yes there are hardcore critter fans that will buy whatever CR puts out and there are gaming enthusiasts who will buy the games if the games are good, but there is also a large group of fans who are equally or more invested in D&D as they are in CR.  Either folks like me who became interested in CR because it was an excellent D&D live play, or folks who came to D&D through CR but now have invested a significant amount of time and money in the system.
> 
> Besides these are all Hollywood folk.  These games are likely to be no more than vanity projects in comparison to the money they will make from their cartoons and the further business deals that this will open for them in Hollywood.  As part of that vision, they would want to avoid antagonizing Hasbro as they could potential enter into lucrative toy deals based on their properties.



Heh. Critical Role, and now Darrington Press, is not a "vanity" project for the CR crew. It is a creative endeavor alongside their acting careers. Most actors do not make a lot of money, even relatively successful ones like the CR folks. None of these people are "Big Hollywood", they aren't struggling as much as they did when they first got started in Tinseltown, but they still need to keep the hustle going. The success of Critical Role has been a much needed boost in their careers, and may have possibly eclipsed their voice acting work in revenue and importance.


----------



## wicked cool (Oct 29, 2020)

Morrus said:


> It's D&D, not the Simpsons. It's less niche than it used to be, but it's never going to be the Simpsons.



Agreed. I have heard other example of twitter outrage such as Last of US 2, mulan,  and even the comic industry. I'm not hearing the WOTC stuff at all so I'm wondering if i'm missing the outlet its appearing in


----------



## Morrus (Oct 29, 2020)

wicked cool said:


> Agreed. I have heard other example of twitter outrage such as Last of US 2, mulan,  and even the comic industry. I'm not hearing the WOTC stuff at all so I'm wondering if i'm missing the outlet its appearing in



It’s usually all over the RPG news sites and communities. They all get discussed at length right here in giant 1000-post threads where several people get banned and then the thread gets closed.


----------



## Seramus (Oct 29, 2020)

Emirikol Prime said:


> Mercer will never screw over D&D.  They’ll dance around the edges and publish things like what they’ve announced.



This. Mercer respects D&D personally and professionally, since it brought his family together and helped inspire so many people. He will certainly publish other things, but the D&D name is sacred to him.

Now, if he keeps gaining steam then Hasbro might *give him* D&D. That's a future possibility.


----------



## Wrathamon (Oct 29, 2020)

Seramus said:


> This. Mercer respects D&D personally and professionally, since it brought his family together and helped inspire so many people. He will certainly publish other things, but the D&D name is sacred to him.
> 
> Now, if he keeps gaining steam then Hasbro might *give him* D&D. That's a future possibility.



Also, a lot of "his world" is using 4e IP that I dont believe was in the ogl, but because he is doing a lot for the community and D&D they are scratching his back. They seem to have a really good partnership. I dont see him disrespecting that by trying to compete directly. i figure he is trying to be complementary


----------



## LuisCarlos17f (Oct 29, 2020)

D&D is the main brand in the TTRPG industry. I guess they would rather to have WotC as godfather/partner/sponsor and not as rival. CR wants to sell fluff/lore/background, and the books about crunch for WotC. 

Hasbro could mre hire outsiders for D&D. Some 3PPs have got really good ideas. If Exandria now is officially D&D world, maybe other setting by a 3PP may follow the same way. Maybe even Hasbro could hire Paizo for crunch sourcebooks (new base classes and like this).


----------



## Ralif Redhammer (Oct 29, 2020)

IF Hasbro ever wants to divest itself of the D&D brand, they will assuredly be selling it for a lot of beans. There's no scenario where the brand is so devalued that they would give it away, no matter how good their working relationship. However, I could totally see Wizards collaborating with Darrington like they have with Kobold Press and Green Ronin.



Seramus said:


> This. Mercer respects D&D personally and professionally, since it brought his family together and helped inspire so many people. He will certainly publish other things, but the D&D name is sacred to him.
> 
> Now, if he keeps gaining steam then Hasbro might *give him* D&D. That's a future possibility.


----------



## LuisCarlos17f (Oct 29, 2020)

We have to remember Hasbro not only has collaborated with other companies, but also acquired someones. 

Now my opinion about Darrington Press  is this is how a indie videogame studio, what wants to sell games, but not to produce yet AAA. The main goal is creative freedom. It is not going to publish its own retroclone with a lot of crunch.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Oct 29, 2020)

Seramus said:


> Now, if he keeps gaining steam then Hasbro might *give him* D&D. That's a future possibility.



He doesn't have any particular track record with content creation*. There's no reason to believe investors would give him the amount of money necessary to buy the brand or that Hasbro would say that he should be in charge of it within their company (or as a licensee). There are many, many, many developers and publishers who would be higher on the list than him.

That said, I can see them _paying_ the Critical Role crew to keep playing D&D, since they've toyed with other games before and each has benefited dramatically from the attention. (The entire Monsterhearts 2 back inventory apparently vanished instantly when CR played a one-shot of the game, for instance.)

* He's a DM and has created two campaigns to date. They're better than most streaming/podcast games, but like most streamed/podcast games, Critical Role is largely about the performances, which are the best around. But I think very few people have picked up any of the Critical Role setting books and have been blown away by them as a setting. They're _fine_, which makes them better than most of their competitors, but I wouldn't say he's a better creator than at least a dozen designers I could name and many more I couldn't.


----------



## Morrus (Oct 29, 2020)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> That said, I can see them _paying_ the Critical Role crew to keep playing D&D, since they've toyed with other games before and each has benefited dramatically from the attention. (The entire Monsterhearts 2 back inventory apparently vanished instantly when CR played a one-shot of the game, for instance.)



That’s possible. They do do sponsored shows. They aren’t cheap though. You’re talking $20-$30k a go.

Not that WotC can’t afford that easily.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Oct 29, 2020)

Morrus said:


> That’s possible. They do do sponsored shows. They aren’t cheap though. You’re talking $20-$30k a go.
> 
> Not that WotC can’t afford that easily.



I could see it as part of an overall deal. 

"We'll co-publish three Critical Role books and ancillary products, but you commit to only playing D&D for the next 18 months, and have to produce a minimum of 24 shows in that time."

At the moment, though, there doesn't seem to be any particular reason for them to do so, since CR is already playing D&D and seems unlikely to stop the gravy train rolling until at least after their cartoon comes out.


----------



## Khelon Testudo (Oct 30, 2020)

All I can say is WotC is lucky - and I bet Paizo are dismayed - that Mercer switched to 5e when he started streaming. The home game was Pathfinder, but the group decided it was too complex to suit streaming. Imagine a world where they stuck with Pathfinder!


----------



## Levistus's_Leviathan (Oct 30, 2020)

Khelon Testudo said:


> All I can say is WotC is lucky - and I bet Paizo are dismayed - that Mercer switched to 5e when he started streaming. The home game was Pathfinder, but the group decided it was too complex to suit streaming. Imagine a world where they stuck with Pathfinder!



Not only that, but one of Paizo's own deities was "borrowed" and used in a WotC Critical Role book (EGtW). Sure, she had a name change, but "a rose by any other name."


----------



## Virgo (Oct 30, 2020)

Seramus said:


> This. Mercer respects D&D personally and professionally, since it brought his family together and helped inspire so many people. He will certainly publish other things, but the D&D name is sacred to him.
> 
> Now, if he keeps gaining steam then Hasbro might *give him* D&D. That's a future possibility.



It'll be a sad day if that happens.

Not everyone is a fan of CR/Mercer.


----------



## MNblockhead (Oct 30, 2020)

Dire Bare said:


> Heh. Critical Role, and now Darrington Press, is not a "vanity" project for the CR crew. It is a creative endeavor alongside their acting careers. Most actors do not make a lot of money, even relatively successful ones like the CR folks. None of these people are "Big Hollywood", they aren't struggling as much as they did when they first got started in Tinseltown, but they still need to keep the hustle going. The success of Critical Role has been a much needed boost in their careers, and may have possibly eclipsed their voice acting work in revenue and importance.



I meant compared to the CR animated series. That’s where they are going to be making real money and it their big break. If it does well enough to get another season, their could be merchandise deals to be had and they would not want to burn bridges with Hasbro. D&D has been good for them and will continue to be. I don’t see them rocking that boat.


----------



## Wrathamon (Oct 30, 2020)

Why would hasbro want to get rid of D&D it is up 20% and they are developing several streaming shows for netflix, etc? This talk of hasbro not wanting to deal with D&D is not current reality.


----------



## MichaelSomething (Nov 1, 2020)

I think we're missing the big picture here...


----------



## LuisCarlos17f (Nov 1, 2020)

We are in the age of the multimedia franchises. This means if an IP works then you will be different products: media productions, comics, books, toys, shirts, videogames.

To be a rival for D&D is too hard. All publishers can create their own setting, but to design the "crunch", about spells, magic items, feats, subclasses, PC races, etc is a different matter. Only Paizo has could to create its own alternative crunch, with new base classes. The rest of retroclones aren't too famous.

I have said Darrington Press may publish new games with its game system, but this can't aim for being the new Paizo. Other thing would be to publish its own version of Unearthed Arcana, a list of optional rules. Or they can work as 3PP to create its own Starfinder sourcebooks, or other d20 titles but not medieval fantasy.


----------



## Catulle (Nov 1, 2020)

Morrus said:


> It’s usually all over the RPG news sites and communities. They all get discussed at length right here in giant 1000-post threads where several people get banned and then the thread gets closed.



And yet keep coming back


----------



## Catulle (Nov 1, 2020)

AcererakTriple6 said:


> Not only that, but one of Paizo's own deities was "borrowed" and used in a WotC Critical Role book (EGtW). Sure, she had a name change, but "a rose by any other name."



Considering what Paizo "borrowed" from D&D, I imagine they'll cope, somehow.


----------



## Virgo (Nov 1, 2020)

"I think we're missing the big picture here..."


I fully expect CR sex toys by Valentine's Day.


----------



## MarkB (Nov 1, 2020)

Trismegistus said:


> "I think we're missing the big picture here..."
> 
> 
> I fully expect CR sex toys by Valentine's Day.



Given that one of the characters makes carved dicks as part of her religion, it'd even be on-brand.


----------



## Virgo (Nov 1, 2020)

MarkB said:


> Given that one of the characters makes carved dicks as part of her religion, it'd even be on-brand.




My, my, my...they've just thought of everything, haven't they? Still, it goes without saying...


----------



## MNblockhead (Nov 1, 2020)

Trismegistus said:


> "I think we're missing the big picture here..."
> 
> 
> I fully expect CR sex toys by Valentine's Day.



Now this is speculation deserving of its own thread...though not sure on these boards.


----------



## Virgo (Nov 1, 2020)

MNblockhead said:


> Now this is speculation deserving of its own thread...though not sure on these boards.



My feelings towards CR definitely puts me in the minority (along with being outside their target audience), so I'll quit now before said opinion gets this thread locked.


----------



## Benjamin Olson (Nov 3, 2020)

My congratulations to them on naming their company after probably the least popular character on their show, presumably because he was the one for whom starting a company named after himself was most in character.


----------

