# Are githyankis and githzerai worth the +2 ECL?



## Chasmodai (Nov 14, 2003)

This thread over here http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=68962, recently got hijacked to discuss a matter that I hold quite dear to my heart.

Are githyankis and githzerai worth the ECL +2?

In any case, I'd say yes to the githzerai. A plus +6 Dex, +2 Wis and an always active, undispellable Mage Armor (that'd be the Inertial Armor they get) makes githzerai monks (their favored class, no less), extremely powerful. 

For example: A human monk, at level 3, will have an AC of 18 (Dex 18, Wis 18) and a total to hit of +6 (+2 BAB, +4 Dex).

A level 1 githzerai monk (effectively level 3), however, will have an AC of 26 (24 Dex, 20 Wis, +4 Inertial Armor) and a total to hit of +7 (+7 Dex).

I'd have to say that they're definitely worth the ECL +2.

For the githyanki, I'd have to say that although their spell-like abilities can be duplicated with items (Cape of the Mountebank for _Dimension Door_, Cloak of Displacement for _Blur_, etc, etc), it means that you're taking up that slot for something else that could be of use to you. You can't wear both the Cape of the Mountebank and the Cloak of Displacement at the same time. In any case, a fighter would probably want to wear a Cloak of Resistance (a staple, and a must, in any game I've ever played).

For their _planeshift_ abilites? What if it just so happens that - thorugh bad rolls, bad party decisions, RBDM-ing - that all your party spellcasters are down and you're stuck in Acheron or something? I can't think of any item that can duplicate _planeshift_ without having to be a spell-completion item (though I might be wrong).

And you have to say that _telekineses_ used inventively, can get you out of a tight spot if your party lacks that full-fledged spellcaster (I've been in a party without a non-mulitclassed wizard/cleric, and it was _hell_). 

Sure their stat adjustments aren't as amazing at the githzerai's. However, their spell-like abilities more than make up for it, don't you think?


----------



## CRGreathouse (Nov 14, 2003)

From my experience, I'd say githzerai are strong, if anything, at +2.  On paper, githyanki seem a bit weak to me, but I'd have to see them in play before judging them properly.

Has anyone had a githyanki PC in their group (a fellow player's character, your character, or a character you DM'd)?


----------



## Viktyr Gehrig (Nov 14, 2003)

Githzerai are a strong +2, but I think +3 is probably too much for them.

Githyanki seem roughly on par with Drow, so I don't think +2 is out of line. They're definitely not as strong a +2 as the Githzerai is, however. (I find it amusing that a Hobgoblin with the same stats before adjustment will end up identical to the Githyanki... except wiser.)


----------



## shilsen (Nov 14, 2003)

I haven't had either played in my group yet, but I think both are worth the +2 ECL. Both of them are good for not just monks but most non-spellcaster types, with the SR being especially useful at higher levels. 

One of the things to keep in mind when comparing an ECL race with the PHB ones is that the loss of a couple of levels becomes more and more negligible as you go up in level. While a 1st lvl Githzerai monk compares well with a 3rd lvl human monk (for example), a 10th lvl Githzerai monk does even better against a 12th lvl human monk.


----------



## Plane Sailing (Nov 14, 2003)

I agree that the githyanki's spell like abilities more than make up the +2 bonus. As a PC there are so many ways I could use those it's untrue! It gives them incredible tactical flexibility, especially if they get telekineses 8 levels before anyone else can, for instance!

Cheers


----------



## Henry (Nov 14, 2003)

Someone please update me: do Githyanki PC's in monster manual still get dimension slide, telekinesis, and clairvoy(audi)ence at 16th level of ability, same as they do in the Psionics Handbook? 

If so, HECK YES they're worth +2. A 16th level telekinesis can pick up and move a 400 pound object at a 1,040 foot range. More to the point, if they can find a 400 lb object to drop on somebody, they can inflict 16d6 damage on them. 

Combine that with a 16 minute clairvoy(audi)ence spell at will, and you've got something unbelievably nasty.

If they toned it down, and I'm way off base, please ignore me.


----------



## Chasmodai (Nov 14, 2003)

3.5 MM gives them _daze_ and _mage hand_ at first level, _blur_ at third level, _dimension door_ at 6th, _telekinesis_ and _planeshift_ at 9th. 

All are usable 3/day except for _planeshift_ which is once a day.


----------



## Thanee (Nov 14, 2003)

From that other thread... 



			
				Scion said:
			
		

> I purposely picked the level difference where they are about the closest they come in power, and in my estimation the human barb still wins out hands down just based on these few numbers. If I had used a dwarf instead the gith would look even worse. If I had used a spellcaster of some kind the difference would have been even more extreme.
> 
> This is why imo they just arent worth the +2, most of the time the numbers above are even worse (especially at low levels like one and at the high end levels). The SR is negligable most of the time (CR 8 creatures that cast usually have a caster level of 8 or higher, so they have to roll a 3 or better, 1 or better if they have spell penetration or an item that does something similar). The extra abilities are nice but fluffy, you could buy similar items to help you out or have other party members cast them for you.
> 
> All in all if this isnt convincing check out the level 3 barb human vs level 1 barb gith, and the level 20 barb human vs 18 gith. It just isnt pretty the beanies are very nice and shiny, but not worth what is given up.




So, a level 8 barbarian is better than a level 6 barbarian. Great conclusion there! 

Of course, the non-githyanki is better in combat... Doh! If not, it would be quite ridiculous with all those powers on top, or not?

How about you compare those with copying all those special abilities via items and then use all the free item limit of the githyankit to add to his combat prowess. I guess I know who comes out on top in that case.

Sure, no barbarian will do that, they will use their items for additional combat prowess and will be better fighters than a similar githyanki barbarian, but that's not the point. The point is, that the special abilities are worth those 2 levels. Maybe not for you, maybe not for a barbarian, but that doesn't make them less worthy at all.

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Scion (Nov 14, 2003)

Either I didnt state my point clearly enough or you are ignoring it. No big deal either way, happens all the time 

The gith gain, at max, the following
+2 dex, +2 con, -2 wisdom (overall +2 stat adjustment)
60 foot darkvision
daze and mage hand 3/day
at 3rd level blur 3/day
at 6th level dimension door 3/day
at 9th level telekinesis 3/day and plane shift 1/day
spell resistance 5 + level
favored class fighter

Now, as I keep saying, those are some nice beanies. But as nice as they are are they worth the cost?

Racial mods of the other race you could be
+2 HD
+2xcon mod
+2 BAB (x modifier, but everyone seems to alreadry agree it would suck for casters no matter what) yeilds an extra attack 2/5 of the time
+1 to good saves
+2/3 to bad saves
+2xskill points/level
+2 max ranks for class skills
+1 max rank for cross classed skills
2/3 of a feat
1/2 of a stat adjustment
2 levels of class abilities - This is the really big one.

You hit prestige classes later, you hit your class abilities later, you are behind by all of the above.

Again, the powers are nice, but are they worth +2 LA? IMO not even close. At the levels you get most of these abilities they are cool and interesting, but generally behind the curve. 3 blurs at 5th level, 3 dim doors and 8th level, 3 tele at 11th, 1 plane shift at 11th, minor sr throughout.

Its all cool stuff, but definately not all people are making it out to be. It isnt all that, it isnt the end all and be all, and not every fighter type would give up, 'their favorite testicle' as someone put it. Quite a few levels the non-gith will have an extra attack, more feats, a +1 to a stat of his choice. Plus being on the fast track to higher level cooler abilities. The above list shows that they are missing out on a lot of other cool things as well. If you feel that it is worth it,  so be it. I do not


----------



## Thanee (Nov 14, 2003)

I do understand your point, and to a degree, I actually agree with you. I also dislike +ECL races because the class abilities lack behind, especially true for spellcasters, and you are always struggling to keep up with others of your effective level.

But that doesn't make those extra abilities any less powerful or less costly. It doesn't make the Githyanki's ECL modifier any less reasonable (also compared to other such races, like the Drow).

If you would drop it to +1, the Githyanki would be overpowered already, I'm pretty sure.

Bye
Thanee


----------



## psyronin (Nov 14, 2003)

Seems to me all outsiders start with LA+1 since the "person" spells (like Hold Person) can't target them. Compare, say, a dwarf to a fire genasi.
I think what tilts the githyanki into LA+2 is the spell resistance plus the "get of out jail free"-type spells such as dimension door and plane shift.


----------



## Scion (Nov 14, 2003)

And cant be targeted by friendly such spells either. Such as enlarge person and the like, which is a big hit in 3.5. Plus you have difficulty in being raised most of the time. Plus protection from 'alignment' protects against most of the spells you mention, only a first level spell. I think that pushes him back out of the +2 category again 

(not to mention banishment and the like  )


----------



## psyronin (Nov 15, 2003)

Hmm, githyanki are not outsiders, just extraplanar humanoids. Oh well.


----------



## shilsen (Nov 15, 2003)

Scion said:
			
		

> And cant be targeted by friendly such spells either. Such as enlarge person and the like, which is a big hit in 3.5.




Not necessarily. As long as the gith(yanki/zerai) lowers SR at the right time, it's not a problem.


----------



## Thanee (Nov 15, 2003)

He was speaking of the outsiders not being affected by spells that target persons. Altho Githyanki are not outsiders, but it was under that assumption.

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Scion (Nov 15, 2003)

What are extraplanar humanoids? I know of the native outsiders and such, but what are the rules for these guys? Does 'extraplanar' even do anything? I know adding 'monstrous' to the front of humanoid pretty well kills a ton of things that can be done (as apparently humanoid modifies monstrous, not the other way around, in d&d..lol).


----------



## Camarath (Nov 15, 2003)

Scion said:
			
		

> What are extraplanar humanoids?



 Text from the SRD.


> Extraplanar Subtype: A subtype applied to any creature when it is on a plane other than its native plane. A creature that travels the planes can gain or lose this subtype as it goes from plane to plane. Monster entries assume that encounters with creatures take place on the Material Plane, and every creature whose native plane is not the Material Plane has the extraplanar subtype (but would not have when on its home plane). Every extraplanar creature in this book has a home plane mentioned in its description. Creatures not labeled as extraplanar are natives of the Material Plane, and they gain the extraplanar subtype if they leave the Material Plane. No creature has the extraplanar subtype when it is on a transitive plane, such as the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, and the Plane of Shadow.


----------



## Staffan (Nov 15, 2003)

Scion said:
			
		

> What are extraplanar humanoids? I know of the native outsiders and such, but what are the rules for these guys? Does 'extraplanar' even do anything? I know adding 'monstrous' to the front of humanoid pretty well kills a ton of things that can be done (as apparently humanoid modifies monstrous, not the other way around, in d&d..lol).




Extraplanar is a subtype, like Goblinoid, Fire or Evil. The effects were explained by someone else.

Monstrous Humanoid is to Humanoid like Natural Armor is to Armor - a different thing with cosmetic similarities.


----------



## Endur (Nov 16, 2003)

SR and plane shift 1/day are AWESOME abilities.

SR is very nice for dodging deadly spells.  Oops you rolled a 1 on the saving throw vs. Slay Living, well don't worry, you can still make your SR check.

Plane Shift will save your character from death when facing overwhelming odds.

Now, to be truthful, if I wanted to play a Barbarian, I probably wouldn't pick Gith as my race of choice.  I'd pick Mountain Giant or Kraken or Red Dragon as my Barbarian race of choice.


----------



## Ridley's Cohort (Nov 17, 2003)

Endur said:
			
		

> SR and plane shift 1/day are AWESOME abilities.
> 
> SR is very nice for dodging deadly spells.  Oops you rolled a 1 on the saving throw vs. Slay Living, well don't worry, you can still make your SR check.
> 
> Plane Shift will save your character from death when facing overwhelming odds.




Except the weak SR stacked on a weak character level (due to the LA) is never going to save you against a Slay Living.  It might save you against a Hold Person cast by a low level Follower or a spell cast from a wand, but that is just about it.  Mid and higher level spellcasters sometimes have Spell Penetration, too.

How useful SR will be depends _a lot_ on the style of your DM.  It will be near useless if the DM prefers to use one or two powerful opponents instead of mixtures including weak opponents.  A single powerful opponent will often have enough HD/levels to automatically cut through any Gith PC SR.


----------



## James McMurray (Nov 17, 2003)

And don't forget that SR also applies to friendly spells, meaning if you want your cleric to be able to heal you, you'll likely want to take a standard action to drop your SR. Not very much fun while in the middle of a battle.

SR is a blessing and a curse when you've got spellcasting allies.


----------



## Ridley's Cohort (Nov 17, 2003)

James McMurray said:
			
		

> And don't forget that SR also applies to friendly spells, meaning if you want your cleric to be able to heal you, you'll likely want to take a standard action to drop your SR. Not very much fun while in the middle of a battle.
> 
> SR is a blessing and a curse when you've got spellcasting allies.




Could be a real issue at low-mid levels where you might depend on a Wand of CLW during combat.  And then you have the headaches of what happens when you fall unconscious...


----------



## James McMurray (Nov 17, 2003)

If you're unconcious, you can't drop your SR, meaning they'd better roll well, or use the Heal skill to stabilize you. At higher levels, when your spellcasters have taken Spell Penetration (and maybe GSP) it isn't as bad, but it can still ruin your day.


----------

