# Anyone got a decent build for a knife-throwing character?



## Dunjin (Dec 11, 2003)

I'm thinking about building a knife-throwing character based on speed and agility. My problem is that there are tons of things I'd like the character to do, but not enough feat slots to cover it. 

Feats I see as essential: 
Quick Draw
Point-Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Weapon Finesse (Dagger)
Dodge
Mobility
Weapon Focus (Dagger)
Rapid Shot
Improved Initiative

The perfect build would seem to be some combination of fighter and monk, but you can't really combine monk without taking all those monk levels first. I was thinking rogue levels because of the sneak attack, Evasion, and skills like Escape Artist, Tumble, and Sleight of Hand. 

I'm toying with builds, but I'm curious to see if anyone has one that has worked or they think might work. I know about the Master of Throwing or whatever, from Complete Warrior, and clearly that class is a target, but I don't have that here with me.


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## Altamont Ravenard (Dec 11, 2003)

Halflings are always interesting throwers. +1 because or race, +1 because of size, +1 because of dex bonus, etc.

Fighter/rogue can be a good build, IMO, but you'll absolutely need far shot, because those range penalties add up fast...

AR


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## Liquidsabre (Dec 12, 2003)

The Master Thrower PrC is pretty good but doesn't provide a viable thrower at early levels, if you went that route you wouldn't have the quick draw feat until 6th or 7th level. I'd go with either the fighter-thrower or the Swashbuckler-thrower. Wouldn't recommend a monk necessarily, though a rouge-fighter might work (still alot of levels there).

Master Thrower requires 4 sleight of hand ranks, weapon focus (thrown wpn), PBShot, Precise Shot.

I'd probably prefer the Fighter 5/Master Thrower Route as any other way could take you 2-3 levels longer. But the Swashbuckler 5/Master thrower route works better as you would not only get the BAB progression you need but more class skills, weapon finesse, and insightful strike (add Int bonus to damage in addition to str damage for light weapons).

The rogue route is a bit redundant with the evasion twice, would that give improved evasion then?? Hmm, dunno.


_edit_- I'd post two different 15-level (by level) thrower builds but not sure if that'd be okay, posting published material like that.


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## jgsugden (Dec 12, 2003)

Don't overlook the ranger possibilities. Those ranger favired enemy bonuses can add up in 3.5 if you have a good idea what type of creatures that you will be facing.


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## Dunjin (Dec 12, 2003)

I thought about Ranger, but I think I could do better with Fighter and picking the Feats I want. Favored Enemy isn't something I'd see this character having. I'm picturing more of an acrobatic rogue-ish type with unerring ability with thrown weapons. 

The problem is that it's hard to have a viable character at low levels with this idiom, it seems. Daggers do pretty crap damage, though I suppose he could toss axes and such. Aside from fighter levels, Feats come pretty slowly, too.


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## Coredump (Dec 12, 2003)

I would go with fighter rogue.

.


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## d20Dwarf (Dec 12, 2003)

Dunjin said:
			
		

> Daggers do pretty crap damage, though I suppose he could toss axes and such.



Axes suck.


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## Celtavian (Dec 12, 2003)

*re*

I'm doing the same thing right now except I'm a knife fighter as well as thrower. I went with Human Fighter 12/Rogue 8.

1: Rog 1: Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Dagger)
2: Ftr 1: Two-weapon Fighting (Remember, TWF now works with thrown weapons and crossbows)
3: Ftr 2: Quickdraw, Improved Initiative.
4: Rog 2
5: Ftr 3
6: Ftr 4 Weapon Specialization (Dagger), Point Blank Shot

I plan to get Far Shot, Rapid Shot, Precise Shot, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, Improved TWF, Greater TWF.

Then I should be able to throw about 7 to 9 knives a round at my highest level. When I catch someone flat-footed who can be affected by Sneak Attack, the gods help them.

I'll probably take a look at the Master Thrower and see if the Prc can match my build for attack and damage capacity.


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## Coredump (Dec 12, 2003)

Sounds similar to what I am doing. But I went with a halfling. +1 to the throw, +1 to the dex attack, +1 to AC. yeah miss one feat, but the +2 to throw is better I think.


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## Noldor Elf (Dec 12, 2003)

Celtavian said:
			
		

> 1: Rog 1: Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Dagger)



That can not be done without hoserules, because both Weapon Finesse and Weapon Focus require BAB: +1, which Rogue 1 does not have.


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## Darklone (Dec 12, 2003)

Yeah, I'd start as halfling fighter (considering the short range, you'll need your hps in melee).

Ftr1: PBS, TWF.
Ftr1/Rog1: sneak attack
Ftr2/Rog1: Rapid Shot, Quickdraw (or Exo Weapon Prof Shuriken).

Next feats: Weapon Focus perhaps or Exo Weap Shuriken.
Next levels: Rogue till 3 or 4, then Fighter for Weapon Specialisation. Keep UMD maxxed and get a wand of Flame Arrows, Keen Edge and GMW... Shuriken are nice as soon as you can afford the feat because your damage relies more on PBS, WS and (perhaps) Favored Enemy. Sneak attack comes in handy, but don't rely on it.

Keep some throwing hammers around in case you meet skeletons.


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## Li Shenron (Dec 12, 2003)

I think any combination of Ftr/Rog would work. The more Ftr levels, the more feats to stack; the more Rog levels, the better sneak attack to offset for low weapon damage.

As a start, the only feats you shouldn't miss are Point Blank Shot and Far Shot. Quick Draw is also a must but you can wait until you get more attacks/rounds.

If you go the Ftr route, you will have a lot of feats to get and you should consider Precise Shot, Weapon Specialization (which requires Weapon Focus), and either Two-weapon Fighting or Rapid Shot (the first would also help in melee, but I think you may get only half Str bonus on the off-hand attack, not sure...).

If you go the Rog route, you should concentrate on how to get as many sneak attacks as you can, which means Improved Initiative first and foremost, but also Two-weapon Fighting/Rapid Shot. You can also afford a high Tumble rank to move out of melee safely and Sleight of Hand to hide your daggers. You may have low attack bonus, so Weapon Focus is more useful in this case.


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## Vaxalon (Dec 12, 2003)

Dunjin said:
			
		

> My problem is that there are tons of things I'd like the character to do, but not enough feat slots to cover it.




Hey, welcome to the world of DnD 3.X!  That's exactly how the game was designed.

At every level, you've got X resources to spend, and at least 2X really good choices to spend them on.  Trying to find an "optimal" build is fun, but in the end, the benefit of one good build over another is insignificant.  Put the calculator down and play!


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## Gregor (Dec 12, 2003)

Coredump said:
			
		

> Sounds similar to what I am doing. But I went with a halfling. +1 to the throw, +1 to the dex attack, +1 to AC. yeah miss one feat, but the +2 to throw is better I think.




You could play as a strongheart halfing from FR and you get an extra feat just like a human.  You'd just have to sacrifice the +1 to all saves that halflings get.  

Cheers,


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## Gaiden (Dec 13, 2003)

Dunjin said:
			
		

> I'm thinking about building a knife-throwing character based on speed and agility. My problem is that there are tons of things I'd like the character to do, but not enough feat slots to cover it.
> 
> Feats I see as essential:
> Quick Draw
> ...




Definitely go with halfling.  The +3 to hit they will get with thrown daggers more than compensates for the -1 dmg, reduced movement, and lack of a bonus feat.  From a powergaming perspective your concept already is at a disadvantage because of the decrese in die type (d4's vs. d6s or a better critical range).  You might as well take the smaller race that would have that as a penalty anyway.

I'd suggest the following feats:

Point Blank Shot
Rapid Shot
Precise Shot
Far Shot
Quickdraw

Far Shot, as was already mentioned, is critical considering the 10' range increment normal of a dagger.  The rest of the feats are the bread and butter of any missile combatant (excluding quickdraw with projectile weapons of course)

I would stay away from Dodge and Mobility.  You already have a relatively slow movement rate.  Moreover, even if you went for spring attack, it seems kind of a waste considering you can convert between missile and melee fighing forms with daggers.

If you want melee capability with daggers as well, Weapon Finesse is a no brainer.  However, the two weapon fighting feats are also going to be important.  You are going to have to compensate for daggers having lower damage.  The easiest way is to gain more attacks.  The next thing to do is to add damage.  As was already suggested, you can take Ranger for their favored enemy bonuses.  However, I sort of agree with you that in descriptive terms that doesn't really match up to the mental image of the knife thrower.  The fighter has weapon specialization.  Combined with a greater number of attacks, that can really add up.  There are also energy enhancements - the extra d6 damage is a great boost (think Taki in Soul Caliber with one enchanted with fire, and the other ice).

Perhaps the most obvious way to increase damage is with sneak attack.  This is truly where knife throwing characters start to become dangerous.  There are three ways to get this for your character concept - rogue, invisilbe blade PrC from CW, and the Ninja class in Rokugan.  If you are using Rokugan material, also consider the feat in Secrets of the Ninja which increases dagger damage to d6 and improves the crit range by 1 (I forget the name) as well as the Scorpion technique feat which essentially gives you 1d6 SA dmg per time you take the feat (max = 5).  The invisible blade is a perfect class because it combines good BAB with good SA progression.  If you are getting sneak attack then I would also consider the feats - improved initiative, expert tactician (and combat reflexes), and flick of the wrist.


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## John Q. Mayhem (Dec 13, 2003)

In general I wouldn't advocate porting in feats, but Mighty Hurl from AU is nice for knife-fighters. +1 damage with thrown weapons and ignore the first range increment. Yeah, halfling is probably the optimal choice for race.


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## argo (Dec 13, 2003)

I also vote for a halfling Ftr/Rog.  Try this build: Ftr2/Rog4, take first level as Rog for the massive skills.  Feats are

Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Quickdraw
Expertise
Improved Feint (if playing 3.0 get your DM to approve Quicker than the eye and replace Expertise with Improved Init)

So lets say you started with a 16 Dex (18 after adjustments).  That means that at 6th level you attack at +12 for 1d4 + 2d6 + Str EVERY ROUND.  Sure a fighter can do better but you also get all those skills to play with   

This build depends on Sneak Attack for damage so I don't recomend going after Wep Spec, just by going to Ftr4 you are trading 1d6 Sneak damage for 2 points of constant damage and that is a questionable trade IMO.  You will also note that aquisition of Far Shot has been delayed, this is because you are usually going to be within 30 ft for your PBS and Sneak attack to apply so you can wait until level 9 for that one.  Also, Improved Feint means no full round attacks so Rapid Shot has sliped as well.  Look for Improved Init at 12 and Rapid Shot at 15 and you can probably drop at least one opponent in the first round of every combat.

Max out your Bluff of course and also Tumble, jump, and other "acrobat skills" as well as Hide and you will be a pint sized ball of death.


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## Celtavian (Dec 13, 2003)

*re*



			
				Noldor Elf said:
			
		

> That can not be done without hoserules, because both Weapon Finesse and Weapon Focus require BAB: +1, which Rogue 1 does not have.




I was going off memory, so I probably bought something else to begin with.


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## Gaiden (Dec 13, 2003)

argo said:
			
		

> So lets say you started with a 16 Dex (18 after adjustments).  That means that at 6th level you attack at +12 for 1d4 + 2d6 + Str EVERY ROUND.  Sure a fighter can do better but you also get all those skills to play with




Let's presume you start with a Str of 14 (12 after penalty).  Your average damage against an AC 20 opponent (reasonable average for opponents at 6th level) will be 8.365 (assuming weapons of at least masterwork quality).  Not to be harsh, but this is utterly pitiful.  Moreover, you won't have the hit points to stay in melee and even if you've flanked you still only get one attack.  

For a knife thrower to be viable you MUST increase your number of attacks.


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## Ripper-nk (Dec 13, 2003)

Best Progression of a Knife Trhrower I made:

3 Rogue
2 Fighter
5 Invisible Blade ( Complete Warrior)
10 Ninja (Rokugan Campaing)

________________________________

In lvl 20 he have:

10d6 sneak attack
INT in AC and INITIATIVE
BAse Attack +19
Uncanny Feint (Feint free action)
Bleeding Wound

________________________________


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## Eltern (Dec 13, 2003)

Ripper-nk, why is it even necessary to take the levels in rogue?  You're basically trading deflect arrows for evasion, and for the guy who's trying to be far away and throwing things at you, I'd rather have deflect arrows (You can knock aside their returning fire).  It also makes things less of a headache  for multiclassing  

Eltern


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## Ripper-nk (Dec 14, 2003)

Eltern said:
			
		

> Ripper-nk, why is it even necessary to take the levels in rogue?  You're basically trading deflect arrows for evasion, and for the guy who's trying to be far away and throwing things at you, I'd rather have deflect arrows (You can knock aside their returning fire).  It also makes things less of a headache  for multiclassing
> 
> Eltern




3 levels in rogue gives much more skill points, +2d6 sneak attack and evasion. It's much better than one fighter feat.


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## argo (Dec 14, 2003)

Gaiden said:
			
		

> Let's presume you start with a Str of 14 (12 after penalty).  Your average damage against an AC 20 opponent (reasonable average for opponents at 6th level) will be 8.365 (assuming weapons of at least masterwork quality).  Not to be harsh, but this is utterly pitiful.  Moreover, you won't have the hit points to stay in melee and even if you've flanked you still only get one attack.
> 
> For a knife thrower to be viable you MUST increase your number of attacks.




Ok, lets compare some other builds then.  Same race, same stats.

Rapid Shot Rogue.  Rog4/Ftr2
Replace Expertise with Improved Init and Improved Feint with Rapid Shot.  In the first round you will murder your flat footed opponents but what about round 2+?
Attack at +10/+10 for 1d4 + 1 each.  Avg 6 dmg/rnd (Advantage: can attack from beyond 30 ft but this guy still doesn't have Far Shot yet)

What about a straight fighter then?  Ftr6
Replace Expertise with Far Shot and Improved Feint with Rapid Shot.  Pick up Wep Focus and Wep Spec.
Attack at +12/+12/+7 for 1d4 + 3 each.  Avg 15 dmg/rnd

Ok so the fighter kicks both their butts and has more HP to boot.  But now we come to the point that the original poster wanted an "acrobat knife thrower" and this fighter is decidedly not that.  Like I said before, the Rog gets all those skills to play with which is what will make this character fun and memorable, the better than average damage output is just a bonus.

Plus, the cool thing about Sneak Attack is that it scales with level.  Lets compare our two rogues at level 11 (when the Ftr is also gaining another attack).

Sneak Attack Rog9/Ftr2
Attack at +15 for 1d4 + 5d6 + 1. Avg 18 dmg/rnd

Rapid Shot Rog9/Ftr2
Attack at +13/+13/+8 for 1d4 + 1 each. Avg 9 dmg/rnd

Plus the Sneak attacker has the advantage of attacking once at his highest BAB, it is wishfull thinking to assume those itterative attacks are always going to hit.

Honestly, none of these builds are really twinked out compared to what else you could do with those levels and feats.  But they sure do have style, and sometimes that is all that really matters right?


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## Eltern (Dec 14, 2003)

Ripper-nk said:
			
		

> 3 levels in rogue gives much more skill points, +2d6 sneak attack and evasion. It's much better than one fighter feat.




Oh no no! I meant swap the rogue levels for -ninja-, not fighter. Yeah, fighter would be dumb   

I see taking fighter for just two levels, then straight up ninja and invisible blade (maybe master thrower, but I don't have it in front of me)

Eltern


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## jgsugden (Dec 14, 2003)

Celtavian said:
			
		

> I was going off memory, so I probably bought something else to begin with.



 Just as an FYI, whan someone asked why they kept the +1 BAB requirement for Finesse, Andy Collins responce was something along the lines of: We did? That was a mistake.


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## Gaiden (Dec 14, 2003)

argo said:
			
		

> Honestly, none of these builds are really twinked out compared to what else you could do with those levels and feats.  But they sure do have style, and sometimes that is all that really matters right?




I do agree that, in general, the acrobatic knife thrower does definitely have style.  However, there is the question of survivability.  In games I have played in, your damage potentials will result in a character death - be it yours or someone else in the party.  This has nothing to do with the image of the character, but merely the numbers.  As I said, knife fighters are at a disadvantage already because of the low damage, so not compensating for that low damage is suicide for the character.

Here is an example build I would go with:

Strongheart Halfling
Rogue 4, Fighter 2
Str 12, Dex 18

PBS, RS, QD, TWF, WFin, WF -dagger

3 attacks at +10, +10, +9 or +10, +9, +9


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## silentspace (Dec 14, 2003)

Eltern said:
			
		

> Oh no no! I meant swap the rogue levels for -ninja-, not fighter. Yeah, fighter would be dumb
> 
> I see taking fighter for just two levels, then straight up ninja and invisible blade (maybe master thrower, but I don't have it in front of me)
> 
> Eltern




What's a ninja?


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## Eltern (Dec 14, 2003)

silentspace said:
			
		

> What's a ninja?




The core class from the Rokugan campaign setting.  Fighter BAB progression, good Will save (poor other two), Sneak attacks like a rogue, and some other relatively piddly abilities.  

Better than the rogue for those first few levels. 

Some questions about this throwing schtuff:
Does feint work at range? I don't think so... if not, why is everyone automatically overlooking the Master Thrower class? Sure, they lose some sneak attack (+3d6, I think), but they get the feinting trick, which is -awesome- because they can get sneak attacks -all the time-, and they get the Weak Spot trick, which is invaluable. If you're a halfling it's even better, because you're small.  Touch attack instead of normal? HOLY COW!

I know we're talking a knife thrower, but I've a question about shurikens.  I thought that you could throw three at a time in 3.0.  Is this not so in 3.5?  If so, how does Sneak Attack work out?

Eltern


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## silentspace (Dec 14, 2003)

Eltern said:
			
		

> The core class from the Rokugan campaign setting.  Fighter BAB progression, good Will save (poor other two), Sneak attacks like a rogue, and some other relatively piddly abilities.




I was afraid that's what you were talking about.


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## Eltern (Dec 15, 2003)

silentspace said:
			
		

> I was afraid that's what you were talking about.




I'm sorry, but didn't that come up in posts before mine?

Eltern


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## MeepoTheMighty (Dec 15, 2003)

I recently had a chance to play a halfing Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 3/Master Thrower 3/Invisible Blade 3 in a one-shot game.  Between improved feint, sneaky shot, and a good old-fashioned ring of blinking, I could pretty much guarantee a +4d6 sneak attack any time I wanted one.  I also took the deadeye shot trick from the master thrower class and the improved crit feat, so my daggers had a crit range of 17-20/x3.  Combined with the swashbuckler's int bonus to damage, I had pretty impressive damage totals.

I think if I were starting the character from the beginning, I'd probably do it as either a Rogue 5/Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 2/Master Thrower 5/Invisible Blade 5 or a Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 4/Master Thrower 5/Invisible Blade 5, depending on how important I thought weapon specialization was.  Honestly though, I think the sneak attack and skill points are more crucial to this build than weapon specialization, so I'd probably choose the first build.


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## silentspace (Dec 15, 2003)

Does the swashbuckler's Int bonus to damage apply to thrown weapons as well?


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## Ripper-nk (Dec 15, 2003)

MeepoTheMighty said:
			
		

> I recently had a chance to play a halfing Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 3/Master Thrower 3/Invisible Blade 3 in a one-shot game.  Between improved feint, sneaky shot, and a good old-fashioned ring of blinking, I could pretty much guarantee a +4d6 sneak attack any time I wanted one.  I also took the deadeye shot trick from the master thrower class and the improved crit feat, so my daggers had a crit range of 17-20/x3.  Combined with the swashbuckler's int bonus to damage, I had pretty impressive damage totals.
> 
> I think if I were starting the character from the beginning, I'd probably do it as either a Rogue 5/Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 2/Master Thrower 5/Invisible Blade 5 or a Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 4/Master Thrower 5/Invisible Blade 5, depending on how important I thought weapon specialization was.  Honestly though, I think the sneak attack and skill points are more crucial to this build than weapon specialization, so I'd probably choose the first build.




I really prefer the ninja, the master thrower loose the sneak attack.


  "Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 3/Master Thrower 3/Invisible Blade 3"

3 invisible blade? And de Feint free action?   

  "Rogue 5/Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 2/Master Thrower 5/Invisible Blade 5"

5 Roge level loose 2 in BAB, for me don't looks nice.

  "Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 4/Master Thrower 5/Invisible Blade 5"

Thas a good way without use non Wizard material, but I trade one level of Master Thrower for more one rogue.

And answer the question of feint, he works in ranged attacks yes!
And about Insightfull Strike (swashbuckler), works ranged too!


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## Eltern (Dec 15, 2003)

Well, I guess a question is if a Spot vs Sleight of Hand is better to insure sneak attacks than a Bluff vs Sense Motive. 

I would personally rather not dump all the feats to make feint effective...

Eltern

P.S. What about shurikens?


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## peliaos (Apr 12, 2016)

Probably way too late with this, and really, it's not really a part of the build, but I'd say you'd have to have a "gauntlet of infinite blades" or two if you're going to be throwing your weapons around.

GAUNTLET OF INFINITE BLADES 
Price (Item Level): 6,500 gp (10th)
Body Slot: Hands
Caster Level: 12th
Aura: Strong; (DC 21) conjuration, 
divination
Activation: Swift (mental)
Weight:  1 lb.
This gauntlet is made of braided mithral 
links.
A gauntlet of inﬁnite blades allows you to produce a weapon at a moment’s notice. When it is activated, a dagger appears in the hand wearing the gauntlet. This ability functions as often as needed, though 
the dagger disappears 3 rounds after it is created.
In addition, the gauntlet has 5 charges, which are renewed each day at dawn. Spending 1 or more charges creates a more potent dagger than normal, as described below.
1 charge: +3 dagger.
3 charges: +3 dagger of seeking.
5 charges: +3 bane dagger of seeking (choose 
the creature type and subtype, if needed,
when activating the gauntlet).

Still a good idea to have non-magic knifes on hand in case of anti-magic field.


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## Kithas (Apr 18, 2016)

peliaos said:


> Probably way too late with this, and really, it's not really a part of the build, but I'd say you'd have to have a "gauntlet of infinite blades" or two if you're going to be throwing your weapons around.
> 
> GAUNTLET OF INFINITE BLADES
> Price (Item Level): 6,500 gp (10th)
> ...



Y'know, I dont think Ive ever seen a 13 YEAR necro post before. I'm really not sure vhether to be concerned or impressed. You're definitely too late. Seriously this is more than half my lifetime o.o


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