# Who's Hype for Dark Sun???



## Scribble (May 28, 2010)

Give it up!


I am... dunno why but for some reason I'm more excited about this release then I have been in a while.


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## Jdvn1 (May 28, 2010)

I'm really looking forward to it... I just wished they'd support it more than two books and an adventure!


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## weem (May 28, 2010)

i'm a bit excited as well, and I really don't know why as I am running my own campaign setting, and that won't be changing.

I think what it is (for me) is that I am simply excited by anything that is D&D and new. It doesn't really matter what it is.


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## wcpfish (May 28, 2010)

I'm with you Weem!  I like anything new and shiny for D&D.  That being said I'm totally "meh" about Dark Sun other than seeing new monsters.  I'm a monsterjunkie (as evidenced by my two latest projects "Haunting Trio" and "Urban Adversaries"  two new 4e monster books available at rpgnow.com...shameless plug...*cough, cough*....)

I'm more of a traditionalist who likes pseudo-european medieval flavor old school sword & sorcery with a lil gothic horror and a sprinkle of high fantasy! The Dark Sun world just doesn't "do it" for me.  

William C. Pfaff
www.escapevelocitygaming.com
(most recent update on the site?  a *free* pdf of 64 Tavern names for any fantasy world)


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## Dice4Hire (May 29, 2010)

I am also very much looking forward to Dark Sun for several reasons.

1. I am pretty sue they will not take the kitchen sink approach like they did in E and FR. Things will exist or not exist as needed (though they will give guidelines for he kitchen sink, of course)

2. Dark Sun is not traditional fantasy. I see FR as a poster child for this, and E is not far off. But DS has always been a lot different.

3. Updated design. It has been a lot of years since DS first came out. I am curious to see what modern designers can do with it. Nothing against older designers, but everyone has learned a lot since those days. 

4. Higher lethality. I really hope this is true and not wishful thinking. I want to see brutal monsters that scare adventurers even at equal or slightly higher levels. Not many monsters around that do that now. I've been looking at MMIII previews ,and it is clear to me that the designers are ratcheting up the monsters a step or two, I hope this is true in DS too.

5. One of my friends is a DS fanatic, and wants to see a game set there.


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## Peraion Graufalke (May 29, 2010)

I'm stoked for Dark Sun right now, partially due to the Penny Arcade Dark Sun podcasts. I've read parts of the old box, looked at Brom's awesome artwork, and gotten that nostalgic feel again. 

Now I'm thinking, once DS is out and I'm running a campaign there, what kind of music is appropriate as background music for the sessions? Dark Sun needs its own metal genre IMO.  (Seriously, there's Pirate Metal, Viking Metal, Tolkien Metal, Touhou Metal... you get the idea.)


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## Mithreinmaethor (May 29, 2010)

I might know someone that has the D&D Encounters - Darksun kit


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## Argyle King (May 29, 2010)

I'm somewhat curious to see what is done with the setting.  4E's design mentality seems somewhat at odds with some of Dark Sun's ideals in some areas.  I'm curious to see which way the design will bend to accomidate both styles combined together into one product.  Will DS be given the same 4E treatment as every other setting or will DS bend some of the 4E ideals to fit the classic DS themes?


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## lukelightning (May 29, 2010)

Me!

I am very curious to see what they do with shoddy weapons (bone, etc.) at higher levels... it's hard to imagine a +3 axe that shatters on a roll of 1.

I, personally, would handle this by getting rid of magic weapons, etc. and using inherent bonuses.


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## Mithreinmaethor (May 29, 2010)

lukelightning said:


> Me!
> 
> I am very curious to see what they do with shoddy weapons (bone, etc.) at higher levels... it's hard to imagine a +3 axe that shatters on a roll of 1.
> 
> I, personally, would handle this by getting rid of magic weapons, etc. and using inherent bonuses.




The weapons breaking is explained in the info for the D&D Encounters - Darksun module.  They also have "survival days" that if you dont have enough you can be affected by "sun fever"

Here is the Players primer sent out in the kits:


> *Welcome to Athas: A Quick Player’s Primer*
> 
> The world of the DARK SUN Campaign Setting is unique in several ways. Many familiar trappings of the DUNGEONS & DRAGONS game are missing or turned on their heads. Athas is not a place of shining knights and robed wizards, of deep forests and divine pantheons. To venture over the sands of Athas is to enter a world of savagery and splendor that draws on different traditions of fantasy and storytelling. Simple survival beneath the deep red sun is often its own adventure.
> 
> ...


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## AdmundfortGeographer (May 29, 2010)

Reading all that gets me happy.  But after reading all that, that goliaths are the new half-giants is totally a buzzkill. So much else positive though!


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## Mort_Q (May 29, 2010)

Eric Anondson said:


> But after reading all that, that goliaths are the new half-giants is totally a buzzkill.




Really?  This is the first time Goliaths have sounded at all interesting (other than mechanically) to me.  I think they made the right choice by not creating another race that fills the same niche.  Sprinkle in some Campaign specific racial feats... I'm looking forward to it!


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## AdmundfortGeographer (May 29, 2010)

Mort_Q said:


> Really?



Yes, really.

That's _*nothing*_ against goliaths as goliaths. _To me_ fitting a goliath into the DS half-giant role is a miniaturizing of half-giants.


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## Dannyalcatraz (May 29, 2010)

Its on my must-buy list, but I can't say I'm "Hyped."


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## Mort_Q (May 29, 2010)

Eric Anondson said:


> Yes, really.
> 
> That's _*nothing*_ against goliaths as goliaths. _To me_ fitting a goliath into the DS half-giant role is a miniaturizing of half-giants.




Well... once they got through 4e-ing the half-giants... they'd be miniaturized anyway.


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## Rechan (May 29, 2010)

For some reason, reading that primer, the names tossed around just boggled me. It's very visible and yanks me out of reading it for some reason.


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## Mithreinmaethor (May 29, 2010)

I guess no one wants to know about the breaking rules or the other stuff.  Guess I will move on.

By the way guys if you dont already know starting June 9th WOTC starts the D&D Encounters - Darksun promotion.  Its 2 hr every Wednesday at a retail outlet.  Go to the WOTC D&D Encounters webpage and type in your zip code to locate a store near you.


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## Rechan (May 29, 2010)

Mithreinmaethor said:


> I guess no one wants to know about the breaking rules or the other stuff.



I asked about the breaking rules in the General RPG thread.


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## Peraion Graufalke (May 29, 2010)

Mithreinmaethor said:


> I guess no one wants to know about the breaking rules or the other stuff.




Well, unless you can post scans/pictures of the character cards...


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## blalien (May 29, 2010)

Is there going to be a new class?  I haven't seen any announcements on it so I assume not, but it might be a surprise...


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## Mort_Q (May 29, 2010)

oops


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## Mort_Q (May 29, 2010)

Peraion Graufalke said:


> Well, unless you can post scans/pictures of the character cards...




D&D XP 2010: Dark Sun Characters

According to the blog linked above, the weapon breaking rules are, in typical 4e (no penalties, only bonuses) style:



> If you roll a 1 on an attack with a weapon, you can reroll it. If you’re using a non-metal weapon, it automatically breaks after the attack if you do so. If you’re using a metal weapon, it breaks on a roll of 1-5




Not bad.   Some of the reasoning is mentioned in the blog linked below.

WotC_RichBaker

An easy grittier House Rule (not tested, just thinking out loud) is to have inferior weapons auto-miss on a 2 or 3 as well... thus making it more tempting to risk breaking your weapon.  

We'll see how it things play out.  I've pre-ordered my Dark Sun books.


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## davethegame (May 29, 2010)

I'm totally hyped. Plans are already under way to make Dark Sun the next campaign I run once my current one is finished (group in late Paragon, and not planning on going all the way through Epic). About 1/3rd of the group played in long DS campaigns in 2e and are really looking forward to it again. 

Basically, it's new campaign energy combined with new campaign energy 



Mort_Q said:


> D&D XP 2010: Dark Sun Characters




I gotta say, that post has been a consistent source of traffic for us since we posted it. Judging by the number of hits it receives daily and how many message boards, blog posts, etc. link to it, sales for Dark Sun are going to be huge.


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## Peraion Graufalke (May 29, 2010)

Mort_Q said:


> D&D XP 2010: Dark Sun Characters



I'm talking about the Dark Sun chars for Encounters, not those for DDXP. They're different pre-gens.


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## Peraion Graufalke (May 29, 2010)

blalien said:


> Is there going to be a new class?  I haven't seen any announcements on it so I assume not, but it might be a surprise...




No, but there's a new warlock pact (sorcerer-king pact) and a new build for the fighter (arena fighter).


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## Mort_Q (May 29, 2010)

Peraion Graufalke said:


> I'm talking about the Dark Sun chars for Encounters, not those for DDXP. They're different pre-gens.




Well then, I too look forward to someone putting them online.


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## RigaMortus2 (May 29, 2010)

Peraion Graufalke said:


> I'm stoked for Dark Sun right now, partially due to the Penny Arcade Dark Sun podcasts. I've read parts of the old box, looked at Brom's awesome artwork, and gotten that nostalgic feel again.
> 
> Now I'm thinking, once DS is out and I'm running a campaign there, what kind of music is appropriate as background music for the sessions? Dark Sun needs its own metal genre IMO.  (Seriously, there's Pirate Metal, Viking Metal, Tolkien Metal, Touhou Metal... you get the idea.)




Get the soundtrack to The Mummy Returns


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## mgbeach (May 29, 2010)

Peraion Graufalke said:


> I'm stoked for Dark Sun right now, partially due to the Penny Arcade Dark Sun podcasts. I've read parts of the old box, looked at Brom's awesome artwork, and gotten that nostalgic feel again.
> 
> Now I'm thinking, once DS is out and I'm running a campaign there, what kind of music is appropriate as background music for the sessions? Dark Sun needs its own metal genre IMO.  (Seriously, there's Pirate Metal, Viking Metal, Tolkien Metal, Touhou Metal... you get the idea.)




Back in the day with AD&D 2nd Edition Dark Sun we used to play a lot of Iron Maiden.  Ended up even having a whole story arc based around this evil kid who was the 7th son of a 7th son


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## Peraion Graufalke (May 29, 2010)

mgbeach said:


> Back in the day with AD&D 2nd Edition Dark Sun we used to play a lot of Iron Maiden.  Ended up even having a whole story arc based around this evil kid who was the 7th son of a 7th son




Hmm, while I haven't listened to Iron Maiden for quite some time, I guess the Powerslave album could be worth checking out (if that's the one with the Egyptian cover).


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## Mort_Q (May 29, 2010)

Johnny3D3D said:


> I'm somewhat curious to see what is done with the setting.  4E's design mentality seems somewhat at odds with some of Dark Sun's ideals in some areas.  I'm curious to see which way the design will bend to accomidate both styles combined together into one product.  Will DS be given the same 4E treatment as every other setting or will DS bend some of the 4E ideals to fit the classic DS themes?




I was just flipping through some old Dark Sun stuff... I can see them not allowing Divine power source classes.

Somewhere someone posted that they are having "no Gnomes" as a sidebar, not a rule.

I wonder if they'll use the racial restrictions on classes at all, or even mention them?


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## Peraion Graufalke (May 29, 2010)

According to this post over at the WotC forums, the Dark Sun pre-gens should soon be available on WotC's Event Downloads page. I'll keep my fingers crossed.



Mort_Q said:


> I was just flipping through some old Dark Sun stuff... I can see them not allowing Divine power source classes.




From what's been posted here, divine power is absent in Dark Sun by default, as it should be.
(However, I can see refluffed/modified avengers in service to sorcerer-kings, just change "radiant" to "necrotic".)


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## DracoSuave (May 29, 2010)

I actually prefer the term 'goliath' to 'half-giant.'  Really, the goliath goes 'I am huge' where half-giant says 'I'm not quite huge, but almost huge.'

Really tho, if they were to make a half-giant race, they'd probably just be reinventing the wheel anyways.  Easier just to stick a goliath in there and be done with it.

Not to mention, my gut tells me that goliaths were invented in 3.x as non-athasian half giants so that people who wanted to play Half-Giants had something to play.


As for excluding Divine power and gnomes, and what not, they'll probably do it in the typical 4ed fashion.  They'll say the base campaign does not include those elements, write all the fluff as if those elements are there, and then throw in the obligatory 'But it's your game do what you want' blurb that they need to toss into every book to appease the groups who don't realize that's always present by default anyways.


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## mgbeach (May 29, 2010)

Peraion Graufalke said:


> According to this post over at the WotC forums, the Dark Sun pre-gens should soon be available on WotC's Event Downloads page. I'll keep my fingers crossed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Here's a little early Christmas present for ya   Not sure if that's exactly what you're talking about, but found it online earlier today in my random searchings


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## mgbeach (May 30, 2010)

Ah damn! Sorry to get your hopes up


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## ArmoredSaint (May 30, 2010)

[No message]


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## Dice4Hire (May 30, 2010)

ArmoredSaint said:


> I'm just wholly unable to comprehend the appeal of this setting.  I'm not so sick of traditional fantasy that I need something like this on my shelf.  I'll give it a miss.




I feel the same about FR and E. Lotta worlds to play in.


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## Argyle King (May 30, 2010)

ArmoredSaint said:


> I'm just wholly unable to comprehend the appeal of this setting. I'm not so sick of traditional fantasy that I need something like this on my shelf.
> 
> Ick. No thanks; I'll give it a miss.





I think there are enough 4E players asking for a more gritty experience that Dark Sun will probably do fairly well.


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## Dannyalcatraz (May 30, 2010)

ArmoredSaint said:


> I'm just wholly unable to comprehend the appeal of this setting.  I'm not so sick of traditional fantasy that I need something like this on my shelf.
> 
> Ick.  No thanks; I'll give it a miss.




Dark Sun was created back in 2Ed because enough people back then wanted to get away from traditional fantasy.  Its probably the most successful non-traditional campaign setting in 2Ed except for Spelljammer.  In some ways, Dark Sun is kind of like the pulp stories featuring John Carter of Mars or Eric John Stark of Skaith, but still within the boundaries of fantasy as opposed to going full-on sword & planet.

Why it never got more than a cursory 3.X treatment is beyond me, but the fact remains that there is an audience for this.  I'm not even a fan of 4Ed, and I'll be buying some part of the newest version of Dark Sun.

In a sense, instead of not buying it because its 4Ed, I'm buying it because it is Dark Sun.


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## renau1g (May 30, 2010)

ArmoredSaint said:


> I'm just wholly unable to comprehend the appeal of this setting.  I'm not so sick of traditional fantasy that I need something like this on my shelf.
> 
> Ick.  No thanks; I'll give it a miss.




....and I don't understand people who go and post in a thread asking people to post their excitement for this setting dropping by with this kind of post. If you're not interested, fine, but why post that here? No point...

As an aside, I really want to play in Athas again...can't wait 

I hope they include Kanks and Inix.


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## Dannyalcatraz (May 30, 2010)

Well, in all fairness, the thread IS titled "Who's Hype for Dark Sun??", which to my eye means its open for negative commentary.

ArmoredSaint isn't Hype for Dark Sun.


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## cignus_pfaccari (May 30, 2010)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Well, in all fairness, the thread IS titled "Who's Hype for Dark Sun??", which to my eye means its open for negative commentary.
> 
> ArmoredSaint isn't Hype for Dark Sun.




Indeed.

I'm not exactly hyped for it, either.  I know people that are, but I never got into Dark Sun.

I'm sure that I'll wind up playing it (one of our DMs has already said that's his next game), though, and I'll likely get the book, but I'm not exactly hyped for it.

Brad


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## AlioTheFool (May 30, 2010)

ArmoredSaint said:


> I'm just wholly unable to comprehend the appeal of this setting. I'm not so sick of traditional fantasy that I need something like this on my shelf.
> 
> Ick. No thanks; I'll give it a miss.




Same here. I'll even go one further and say that Dark Sun 4e angers me with all of its attention. It's getting an "Eye on" this month in Dungeon magazine. Meanwhile, it's another month during its cycle that Eberron is being ignored.

I personally wanted Dragonlance for this year's setting, but that's really neither here nor there. I'm happy for anyone who is a Dark Sun fan, but I'm sort of happy for myself in that this is two books I won't have to waste money on. I am "hype" for getting desert dungeon tiles though, so there's that!


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## Wik (May 30, 2010)

Dark Sun is just so much fun.  Can't wait.  Can't.  WAIT.

I had two players who were a bit iffy on the game... until I explained to them the general gist of it.  For some reason, dune-running elves really caught one player's attention.  

The rest of my group is looking forward to a low-treasure, gritty game with a survivalist theme.  Because I have a few players in my group who hate magic items almost as much as I do.  

I've been planning my 4e Dark Sun story arc since the day after DS 4E was announced.  I seriously cannot wait for the game to come out.  My girlfriend told me she was going to buy it for my birthday, and I Seriously told her not to, because I'd be buying it the day it comes out (about two days before, if memory serves) - and if I had to wait for my birthday for it, those two days in between would be TORTURE for me.  

I actually told her I wouldn't be able to go on the internet, lest there be spoilers.  Gah, I'm such a geek!

as for the thread crappers - fair enough.  It's not for everyone.  But then, I've never liked some of your settings, either.  Dragonlance never caught my interest.  FR bored me to tears and was way too NPC-heavy.  Planescape had a good starting point, but it was just too weird and hard to understand from a player's perspective.  Really, the only two settings that were worth looking at were Spelljammer and Birthright (unless you count Jakandor, which most people don't).  

Dark Sun was a game shaped by the late 1980s and early 1990s.  It was post-apocalyptic when the thoughts of an apocalypse were still on people's minds.  There was the whole ecological collapse issue, back when the idea of global warming was still a new and frightening possibility.  The designers were making this when there was still the possibility the USSR would go nova and start blasting nukes off - and the game shows that (ever notice how most post-apoc games & movies were released in the 70s and 80s?  The genre has changed to a "zombie apocalypse" since then)  

Also, to me, Dark sun was the ONLY setting where the magic sort of made sense.  in a game like FR, there was absolutely no reason why a castle should exist - it was too easy to bypass with magic/monsters.  Lanterns should be rare, since continual light was better.  and so on, and so forth.  Eberron has addressed the issue in one way, but Dark Sun took another - magic isn't rare, it's dangerous.  People that use magic aren't going to do it for trivial things.  And the use of magic feeds into why the setting itself is so blasted.  Which, in my mind, is a helluva lot cooler than "Elminster would do it himself, he, um, just doesn't have time".


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## mgbeach (May 30, 2010)

Now we just need a 4e Al Qadim and I'll be a REALLY happy camper!


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## doctorhook (May 30, 2010)

ArmoredSaint said:


> I'm just wholly unable to comprehend the appeal of this setting.  I'm not so sick of traditional fantasy that I need something like this on my shelf.
> 
> Ick.  No thanks; I'll give it a miss.



I _am_ excited about Dark Sun; but what I don't understand is how some folks think Eberron is too much like FR. 

*"Traditional" (aka, "Same ol' stuff, different map"):* Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, Greyhawk.

*Interesting:* Eberron, Dark Sun, Gamma World.[/IMNSHO]



mgbeach said:


> Now we just need a 4e Al Qadim and I'll be a REALLY happy camper!



That would be cool, but don't hold your breath. WotC hasn't indicated much interest in revisiting Oriental Adventures yet -- partially on account of the offensive implications of "racialised" campaign settings -- so I think Al Qadim's chances are slim for the time being.


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## Dice4Hire (May 30, 2010)

doctorhook said:


> That would be cool, but don't hold your breath. WotC hasn't indicated much interest in revisiting Oriental Adventures yet -- partially on account of the offensive implications of "racialised" campaign settings -- so I think Al Qadim's chances are slim for the time being.




For next year, I would like to see either a totally new setting ,or one of the more imaginative ones form the past, and AL-Quadim would fit the imaginative test.


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## firesnakearies (May 31, 2010)

Dark Sun is the best setting ever.  I'm really excited about its return!


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## JeffB (May 31, 2010)

I'm very excited as to me it's completely new/fresh. I've only read about the setting over the years, never having owned any of the materials for it (at the time of its run, it just wasn't to my taste, now it's definitely to my tastes). I'll be picking up all 3 products, even if just to plunder for the homebrew.


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## darjr (May 31, 2010)

There is also a living campaign launching. Adventures, I think, are to debut at GenCon. I heard a rumor about several places across the country doing marathon 72 hour playtests. I'm sure it wasn't the only playtesting.


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## mgbeach (May 31, 2010)

darjr said:


> There is also a living campaign launching. Adventures, I think, are to debut at GenCon. I heard a rumor about several places across the country doing marathon 72 hour playtests. I'm sure it wasn't the only playtesting.




Starting in June I think that the D&D Encounters are all going to be Dark Sun.  You can get a sneak peak of the Penny Arcade guys playing them on the last two podcasts (MAY BE SPOILERS...and adult language)

http://media.wizards.com/podcasts/DarkSun_ep1.mp3
http://media.wizards.com/podcasts/DarkSun_ep2.mp3


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## darjr (May 31, 2010)

mgbeach said:


> Starting in June I think that the D&D Encounters are all going to be Dark Sun.  You can get a sneak peak of the Penny Arcade guys playing them on the last two podcasts (MAY BE SPOILERS...and adult language)
> 
> http://media.wizards.com/podcasts/DarkSun_ep1.mp3
> http://media.wizards.com/podcasts/DarkSun_ep2.mp3




Yea, already listening, thanks! Can't wait for details from the encounters kits to start showing up.


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## AdmundfortGeographer (May 31, 2010)

AlioTheFool said:


> I'll even go one further and say that Dark Sun 4e angers me with all of its attention. It's getting an "Eye on" this month in Dungeon magazine.



Huh. Dark Sun hasn't received _any_ such attention until . . . coming up.

I've even groused that it is being treated less than flatteringly right now with the WotC Dark Sun forum stuck in the "Other Worlds" miscellaneous collection rather than being called out like the Ebrron and FR forums, and how the Dark Sun Blog doesn't blog about Dark Sun for months at a time and when it there is a post Dark Sun gets a partial reference. I know it's not officially out yet, but if you actively look around for info it kind of seems an afterthought at the moment. My kvetching to WotC did get them to at least place a link to Chris Tulach's RPGA announcement on the official Dark Sun page. 

Maybe the attention is only now being ramped up, but it has been a figurative desert of news about 4e Dark Sun since announcement.


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## firesnakearies (May 31, 2010)

darjr said:


> There is also a living campaign launching. Adventures, I think, are to debut at GenCon. I heard a rumor about several places across the country doing marathon 72 hour playtests. I'm sure it wasn't the only playtesting.




Are you talking about the second season of D&D Encounters, or is this some other living campaign in Dark Sun that you're talking about?  Something like LFR, but in Dark Sun?  If so, that's awesome!


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## Taed (May 31, 2010)

There's a Dark Sun adventure being given out by WotC on Free RPG Day (19 June 2010, Free RPG Day 2010).


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## Mithreinmaethor (May 31, 2010)

firesnakearies said:


> Are you talking about the second season of D&D Encounters, or is this some other living campaign in Dark Sun that you're talking about?  Something like LFR, but in Dark Sun?  If so, that's awesome!




None of the global admins know of any upcoming living campaign, or at least they arent saying they do.  The most recent word still is that the RPGA does not have the resources available to support a 2nd living campaign.


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## Phaezen (May 31, 2010)

DungeonMasters.com has just put up the character sheets for Season 2 of D&D encounters.  Available here

Edit: Opened a new thread for discussion of the characters here


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## Jdvn1 (Jun 1, 2010)

Taed said:


> There's a Dark Sun adventure being given out by WotC on Free RPG Day (19 June 2010, Free RPG Day 2010).



I thought that was going to be the D&D Experience adventure.


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## Taed (Jun 1, 2010)

Jdvn1 said:


> I thought that was going to be the D&D Experience adventure.




D&D Encounters is ALSO going to be starting a Dark Sun adventure on 9 June.


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## Raunalyn (Jun 1, 2010)

I am very much stoked about Dark Sun 4e. I played it back when it was 1st released, and while I thought it was novel, I just couldn't come up with enough ideas for it. Maybe it's just that I've had so much experience since then, but reading up on the info that has been released so far has given me all kinds of things I can use.

I love the unusual settings. Now, all we need is a Spelljammer 4e, and I will be a very happy camper.


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## TheLastRogue (Jun 1, 2010)

Count me among the super-psyched!

With one small caveat - - I am a bit worried about how Epic tier will play out in Dark Sun.


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## Knightfall (Jun 2, 2010)

I'm still hyped for Dark Sun!!!


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## Dice4Hire (Jun 2, 2010)

TheLastRogue said:


> Count me among the super-psyched!
> 
> With one small caveat - - I am a bit worried about how Epic tier will play out in Dark Sun.




Yeah, world-changing adventures and Dark Sun do not seem to match well, especially considering the mere weeks it might take a party to go from 21st to 30th. Slowing down advancement might be a good idea, or putting a lot of down time between levels. I do that already.

And the obvious solution is to simply not play epic Dark Sun. I might be tempted to do that myself.


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## doctorhook (Jun 2, 2010)

Dice4Hire said:


> Yeah, world-changing adventures and Dark Sun do not seem to match well, especially considering the mere weeks it might take a party to go from 21st to 30th. Slowing down advancement might be a good idea, or putting a lot of down time between levels. I do that already.
> 
> And the obvious solution is to simply not play epic Dark Sun. I might be tempted to do that myself.



At Epic level, mere survival shouldn't be a problem for characters (except for those who die in combat, of course), and I don't think Dark Sun should be an exception. How dangerous can a desert really be before it becomes a parody? By the time you can travel between worlds whenever you like and rise from the dead once per day, finding a meal shouldn't be an issue anymore. (What's the worst that can happen? You starve to death once per day?)

As for world-changing adventures, why not in Dark Sun? If not at Epic, then when? When do the PCs get to rise up and slay a Sorcerer-King or two? At what point do they get to try some literally epic preservation magic, or to even undo some of the cataclysm that destroyed Athas?

I can appreciate that Epic-tier play doesn't fit well with the "hopeless" tone of Dark Sun, but I don't see the purpose of telling a story where no one ever accomplishes anything significant or interesting, and I can't imagine it being much fun to play a game like this either. Why even allow Paragon-tier play? Heck, why even allow characters above 1st level?

Remember that levels -- and by extension, tiers -- are an abstraction; being level 21 is not fundamentally different from being level 30, and so I dispute the assertion that the time it takes to get from one to the other is somehow less appropriate for Dark Sun than, say, Greyhawk.

This isn't an attack, nor is it directly squarely at you, dice4hire. I'm mostly speaking rhetorically here. I just happen to disagree with your position, as I understand it, based on the post above.


----------



## lukelightning (Jun 2, 2010)

I find the idea of fragile +3 weapons odd. Since it seems to me that no player would ever want his magic weapon destroyed, and that it seems that the option to destroy a weapon in combat is up to the player, then the fragile feature will never really come into play.


----------



## Phaezen (Jun 2, 2010)

TheLastRogue said:


> Count me among the super-psyched!
> 
> With one small caveat - - I am a bit worried about how Epic tier will play out in Dark Sun.




Dunno, I am looking forward to seeing the transformation paths from 2e being done as epic destinies (Dragon, Elemental and so forth.)

Epic had always been a part of Dark Sun.


----------



## Dice4Hire (Jun 2, 2010)

doctorhook said:


> Remember that levels -- and by extension, tiers -- are an abstraction; being level 21 is not fundamentally different from being level 30, and so I dispute the assertion that the time it takes to get from one to the other is somehow less appropriate for Dark Sun than, say, Greyhawk.




I disagree. In th standard worlds, the planes are open to all. FR and E do not assume you are still within a mile of your birthplace at 30th level, you have probably visited nearly every plane by then. Dark Sun is different. Not only was the original world (it might have changed) cut off from the multiverse, but the whole campaign area was quite small.

If the sorcerer kings are not 30th, and they have been ruling city states for hundreds of years, it is patently ridiculous that an adventurer could meet or exceed them in the span of a couple years. Just plain absurd. But YMMV. 



> This isn't an attack, nor is it directly squarely at you, dice4hire. I'm mostly speaking rhetorically here. I just happen to disagree with your position, as I understand it, based on the post above.




Then why name names? The quote makes it obvious who you are answering to.


----------



## Pseudopsyche (Jun 2, 2010)

Dice4Hire said:


> If the sorcerer kings are not 30th, and they have been ruling city states for hundreds of years, it is patently ridiculous that an adventurer could meet or exceed them in the span of a couple years. Just plain absurd. But YMMV.



WotC has already published stat blocks for gods that the PCs can slay in the default setting, so why can't some Dark Sun campaigns involving deposing a sorcerer king?  Those for whom "epic Dark Sun" is an oxymoron can stop after paragon tier.


----------



## MrMyth (Jun 2, 2010)

Dice4Hire said:


> If the sorcerer kings are not 30th, and they have been ruling city states for hundreds of years, it is patently ridiculous that an adventurer could meet or exceed them in the span of a couple years. Just plain absurd. But YMMV.




And really, that's a core flaw in D&D in general. Adventurers get insanely powerful in a very small period of time, and are able to overcome warlords who have reigned for years, wizards who have built power over decades, demons that have threatened the earth for centuries, and eventually even gods and other great powers. Regardless of setting, PCs power grows disproportionately to everyone else, and the only way to avoid that is through a DM either providing explanations for this in the plot, or finding a way to run a game that represents decades of character advancement rather than months.


----------



## darjr (Jun 2, 2010)

firesnakearies said:


> Are you talking about the second season of D&D Encounters, or is this some other living campaign in Dark Sun that you're talking about?  Something like LFR, but in Dark Sun?  If so, that's awesome!




Not sure now. I think I took the 'Will be RPGA Support in Dark Sun' and the rumors of the play tests of RPGA mods to mean more than it actually does. It might only mean that there will be things like Delves and special RPGA con events.


----------



## doctorhook (Jun 2, 2010)

Dice4Hire said:


> I disagree. In th standard worlds, the planes are open to all. FR and E do not assume you are still within a mile of your birthplace at 30th level, you have probably visited nearly every plane by then. Dark Sun is different. Not only was the original world (it might have changed) cut off from the multiverse, but the whole campaign area was quite small.
> 
> If the sorcerer kings are not 30th, and they have been ruling city states for hundreds of years, it is patently ridiculous that an adventurer could meet or exceed them in the span of a couple years. Just plain absurd. But YMMV.



Adventurers are special, by virtue of their adventures. When adventurers aren't special, you're abandoning a core conceit of "Dungeons & Dragons" for one from "Peasants & Ploughshares". Not even in Dark Sun can you toss out this assumption and still call your game "D&D", because it's so deeply rooted -- not only are the mechanics of player characters special, but the very fact that there are players behind these characters makes them special.

What's so absurd about heroes, empowered by destiny, rising up to defeat an ancient evil? That's pretty much par for the course in fantasy fiction, isn't it?

FWIW, "The Wanderer's Chronicle" from the revised Dark Sun boxed set (1995) talks about heroes killing Sorcerer-King Kalak of Tyr on the very first page. In other words, there's obviously precedent for this type of gameplay in Dark Sun.



Dice4Hire said:


> Then why name names? The quote makes it obvious who you are answering to.



It was a courtesy, lest you think I wanted you to take it personally.


----------



## mmaranda (Jun 2, 2010)

I think Kalak died by either meta-plot or it was written into an adventure (You the PCs can kill Kalak) by acting at a special conflux of power wherein Kalak was at his weakest while attempting to become a god.



As for RPGA support I don't know what we will get but I would wait with baited breath. 4E started wtih the expectation that there would be 1 RPGA living campaign (and sadly it was LFR) I have heard little to believe there will be anything nearly that extensive.

If there is RPGA support wait for it with caution. Their releases are very uneven.


----------



## doctorhook (Jun 2, 2010)

mmaranda said:


> I think Kalak died by either meta-plot or it was written into an adventure (You the PCs can kill Kalak) by acting at a special conflux of power wherein Kalak was at his weakest while attempting to become a god.



Sounds like a very typical plot device for the end of any Epic campaign: trick the evil deity into weakening itself temporarily, and then slay it during its moment of weakness.

Dark Sun is not so different from the rest of D&D, it seems...


----------



## Raunalyn (Jun 2, 2010)

Phaezen said:


> Dunno, I am looking forward to seeing the transformation paths from 2e being done as epic destinies (Dragon, Elemental and so forth.)
> 
> Epic had always been a part of Dark Sun.




Agreed. Dragon, Avangion, and Elemental transformations just scream Epic Destinies to me.


----------



## OchreJelly (Jun 2, 2010)

MrMyth said:


> And really, that's a core flaw in D&D in general. Adventurers get insanely powerful in a very small period of time, and are able to overcome warlords who have reigned for years, wizards who have built power over decades, demons that have threatened the earth for centuries, and eventually even gods and other great powers. Regardless of setting, PCs power grows disproportionately to everyone else, and the only way to avoid that is through a DM either providing explanations for this in the plot, or finding a way to run a game that represents decades of character advancement rather than months.




Because the PCs are the stars of the show.  You can see it played out in countless stories and films.  The young hero can't possibly defeat the great evil until he is trained by the grizzled veteran and overcomes a few lesser challenges on his own.  The training sequence is usually a short montage (naturally) that doesn't span years and lifetimes.  It may be cliched, but I'm not sure why DMs need to bend-over-backwards to explain _why _things work differently for the PCs.


----------



## Jdvn1 (Jun 2, 2010)

Taed said:


> D&D Encounters is ALSO going to be starting a Dark Sun adventure on 9 June.



Right, but my point was that the Free RPG Day adventure migiht not be anything new.

Though, I heard some place that it will be a new adventure, with the same pregens from D&D XP.

I guess we'll find out in two weeks.


----------



## Jdvn1 (Jun 2, 2010)

Dice4Hire said:


> Yeah, world-changing adventures and Dark Sun do not seem to match well



DDE Season 2 starts with
[sblock=Do not read this if you will play DDE Season 2]the death of a sorcerer king[/sblock]
What I _like_ about settings is knocking down previously established preconceptions. I think you're gong to see a different take on Dark Sun.


----------



## Dice4Hire (Jun 2, 2010)

Jdvn1 said:


> DDE Season 2 starts with
> [sblock=Do not read this if you will play DDE Season 2]the death of a sorcerer king[/sblock]
> What I _like_ about settings is knocking down previously established preconceptions. I think you're gong to see a different take on Dark Sun.




If it is KALAK, how is that different?


----------



## DracoSuave (Jun 3, 2010)

Dice4Hire said:


> If it is KALAK, how is that different?




KALAK DIES!?!

OH GOD HOW COULD YOU!

You spoiling it just like the first suppliment for Dark Sun did.


----------



## Hawkeye (Jun 3, 2010)

DracoSuave said:


> KALAK DIES!?!
> 
> OH GOD HOW COULD YOU!
> 
> You spoiling it just like the first suppliment for Dark Sun did.




Darth Vader is actually Anakin Skywalker, Luke's father.

Hawkeye


----------



## DracoSuave (Jun 3, 2010)

Dice4Hire said:


> Yeah, world-changing adventures and Dark Sun do not seem to match well, especially considering the mere weeks it might take a party to go from 21st to 30th. Slowing down advancement might be a good idea, or putting a lot of down time between levels. I do that already.
> 
> And the obvious solution is to simply not play epic Dark Sun. I might be tempted to do that myself.




This is the part where I mention WHAT the first supplement for the original Dark Sun setting was.

It was called 'The Dragon Kings' and all about how a player character (usually human, or psionicist of any race) could attain level 21 or higher, something non-existant in AD&D 2nd at the time.

Not to mention, King Kalak's apotheosis was described as 'an attempt to go from level 21st to 30th level in a single spell'.  Whether or not it would have succeeded is not mentioned.

However, level advancement for those who use 'Psionic Enchantments' (10th level spells) required the casting of the appropriate level spell.  Each was an individual epic adventure in and of themselves.

Epic Play not appropriate for Dark Sun!?!

Hellllll, Dark Sun INVENTED it.


EDIT:  A different take on Dark Sun would be if Sorcerer Kings not named Hamanu or Nibenay could actually -survive- the first five books.



Spoiler



No, Borys the Dragon is NOT the biggest thing out there.  Your Sorcerer Kings won't likely be the 'level 35' baddies that you face... Borys of Ebe might be 30, 31...

Remember, those sorcerer-kings... they're the GOOD GUYS in Athas compared to what Borys is keeping out....


----------



## Peraion Graufalke (Jun 3, 2010)

Actually, Kalak died right in the introductory adventure that was included in the original box.
So  instead of letting the characters watch Kalak get killed by some NPCs - before those NPCs proceed to ruin the setting -, the characters just hear about it, and the setting won't be ruined?


----------



## doctorhook (Jun 3, 2010)

DracoSuave said:


> This is the part where I mention WHAT the first supplement for the original Dark Sun setting was.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...



Thanks for the solid backup, yo. I don't know much about Dark Sun, but I too found the idea of "no Epic Dark Sun" pretty flimsy.

"Must spread XP before giving to DracoSuave again..."


----------



## DracoSuave (Jun 3, 2010)

Peraion Graufalke said:


> Actually, Kalak died right in the introductory adventure that was included in the original box.
> So  instead of letting the characters watch Kalak get killed by some NPCs - before those NPCs proceed to ruin the setting -, the characters just hear about it, and the setting won't be ruined?




Sadira -was- a bitch.

doctorhook---

I wasn't denouncing Dark Sun as epic... Dark Sun -invented- epic level play for AD&D.  The first 21st level AD&D character was a Dark Sun character... probably a gladiator gaining a standing army to stand beside his 'friend' who was slowly becoming a horrible defiling dragon creature.


----------



## mgbeach (Jun 3, 2010)

Peraion Graufalke said:


> Actually, Kalak died right in the introductory adventure that was included in the original box.
> So  instead of letting the characters watch Kalak get killed by some NPCs - before those NPCs proceed to ruin the setting -, the characters just hear about it, and the setting won't be ruined?




I prefer to believe that the Prism Pentad was a bad dream


----------



## DracoSuave (Jun 3, 2010)

mgbeach said:


> I prefer to believe that the Prism Pentad was a bad dream




Ironicly, the Prism Pentad was written by the designer of the setting...


...yeah.


----------



## mgbeach (Jun 3, 2010)

DracoSuave said:


> Ironicly, the Prism Pentad was written by the designer of the setting...
> 
> 
> ...yeah.




Yeah, pretty crazy.

Hmm.. we have an entire setting based on a worldwide devastation brought on by harmful sorcery... what should we put on the other side of this mountain??  I've got it!  UBER FOREST!!


----------



## doctorhook (Jun 3, 2010)

DracoSuave said:


> doctorhook---
> 
> I wasn't denouncing Dark Sun as epic...



Nor I. I apologize if I've misrepresented my position.

I'm interested in Dark Sun. Based on my understanding of it, it has opportunities for adventure at every tier of play. I had been trying to say that I disagree with people who feel that Dark Sun is *not* appropriate for Epic. Aside from the obvious Heroic-tier "mere survival" theme, Dark Sun clearly has a lot of adventure potential all the way up to 30th level, in my opinion as a non-expert on the setting.

From what I can tell, you and I are on the same figurative page.


----------



## Scribble (Jun 3, 2010)

doctorhook said:


> From what I can tell, you and I are on the same figurative page.




You're also literally on the same page! (of the post!)


----------



## Saracenus (Jun 3, 2010)

Jdvn1 said:


> Right, but my point was that the Free RPG Day adventure migiht not be anything new.
> 
> Though, I heard some place that it will be a new adventure, with the same pregens from D&D XP.
> 
> I guess we'll find out in two weeks.




In my capacity as a DDE coordinator I met with Chris Tulach (author of the D&DXP Dark Sun Preview) to talk about Season 2 of the campaign (yay Dark Sun!) and he said the Free RPG Gameday adventure uses the same maps and pre-gen PCs (only they are on the much nicer card stock that DDE and WWGD use) but the adventure is a brand new one (he is writing it).

I am looking forward to Dark Sun this year and there is going to be a lot of it.

My two coppers,


----------



## DracoSuave (Jun 3, 2010)

doctorhook said:


> Nor I. I apologize if I've misrepresented my position.
> 
> I'm interested in Dark Sun. Based on my understanding of it, it has opportunities for adventure at every tier of play. I had been trying to say that I disagree with people who feel that Dark Sun is *not* appropriate for Epic. Aside from the obvious Heroic-tier "mere survival" theme, Dark Sun clearly has a lot of adventure potential all the way up to 30th level, in my opinion as a non-expert on the setting.
> 
> From what I can tell, you and I are on the same figurative page.




In that case

HIGH FIVES!


And I for one am looking greatly forward to the Dark Sun campaign.  I <3 that setting.


----------



## Jdvn1 (Jun 3, 2010)

Saracenus said:


> In my capacity as a DDE coordinator I met with Chris Tulach (author of the D&DXP Dark Sun Preview) to talk about Season 2 of the campaign (yay Dark Sun!) and he said the Free RPG Gameday adventure uses the same maps and pre-gen PCs (only they are on the much nicer card stock that DDE and WWGD use) but the adventure is a brand new one (he is writing it).
> 
> I am looking forward to Dark Sun this year and there is going to be a lot of it.
> 
> My two coppers,



Awesome, thanks!


----------



## doctorhook (Jun 3, 2010)

Scribble said:


> You're also literally on the same page! (of the post!)







DracoSuave said:


> In that case
> 
> HIGH FIVES!
> 
> ...



I love high fives! High fives for everyone!

Myself, I have room in my heart to learn to <3 Dark Sun.


----------



## DracoSuave (Jun 3, 2010)

doctorhook said:


> I love high fives! High fives for everyone!
> 
> Myself, I have room in my heart to learn to <3 Dark Sun.




Just pretend this woman







never existed


----------



## doctorhook (Jun 3, 2010)

[No message]


----------



## Mithreinmaethor (Jun 3, 2010)

I was never a fan of Darksun but I am interested in checking out this incarnation of it.

I still hate Eberron however.  So if I like Darksun I wont have 2 years worth of settings that are a waste to me.


----------



## doctorhook (Jun 3, 2010)

Mithreinmaethor said:


> I still hate Eberron however.



I don't think we can be friends.


----------



## DracoSuave (Jun 3, 2010)

doctorhook said:


> Uh oh! What did that slut do?




Nothing.

What she did never happened.

No sorcerer-kings were killed by her, nor was there a 'Rajaat'.

Ignore what I said.

Or in fact, any of the novels.

Except for the one where Kalak died, that's okay.


----------



## chitzk0i (Jun 3, 2010)

doctorhook said:


> Uh oh! What did that slut do?




I don't know, but it got her a man jaw. And lots of muscles.


----------



## doctorhook (Jun 3, 2010)

DracoSuave said:


> Nothing.
> 
> What she did never happened.
> 
> ...



lol Got it.

...What's a Rajaat? That word is all over the wikipedia page, but I didn't read closely enough to find out. Gimme the shorter version, plaz.



chitzk0i said:


> I don't know, but it got her a man jaw. And lots of muscles.



Whoa. "Pretty from far, far from pretty" indeed.

Also, how did she manage to rip her clothes so thoroughly and yet so symmetrically?


----------



## Mithreinmaethor (Jun 3, 2010)

doctorhook said:


> I don't think we can be friends.




Its ok.  Friends dont let Friends play in Eberron.


----------



## Mouseferatu (Jun 3, 2010)

Mithreinmaethor said:


> Its ok.  Friends dont let Friends play in Eberron.




Bah! Whadda you know?  Eberron is the 3rd/4th (depending on how you count them) coolest official D&D setting ever printed, and _the_ coolest "general" (as in non-themed) D&D setting every printed.


----------



## Mithreinmaethor (Jun 3, 2010)

Mouseferatu said:


> Bah! Whadda you know?  Eberron is the 3rd/4th (depending on how you count them) coolest official D&D setting ever printed, and _the_ coolest "general" (as in non-themed) D&D setting every printed.




Its definitely better than the horror that was Spelljammer


----------



## mgbeach (Jun 3, 2010)

Mouseferatu said:


> Bah! Whadda you know?  Eberron is the 3rd/4th (depending on how you count them) coolest official D&D setting ever printed, and _the_ coolest "general" (as in non-themed) D&D setting every printed.




So are you going with Al Qadim, Dark Sun and Ravenloft ahead of Eberron? I'd probably agree with that.


----------



## Mouseferatu (Jun 3, 2010)

mgbeach said:


> So are you going with Al Qadim, Dark Sun and Ravenloft ahead of Eberron? I'd probably agree with that.




*ding, ding, ding!*

Got it in one. 

(That's why I said 3rd or 4th. I _love_ Ravenloft, but I prefer to use it as either a setting for mini-campaigns only, or as an array of locations to mine for other uses, rather than as a full-fledged "whole" campaign setting.)


----------



## Danzauker (Jun 3, 2010)

DracoSuave said:


> Nothing.
> 
> What she did never happened.
> 
> ...




Quote all, except for the last point.

I'd still very much prefer all sorcerer-kings to be alive in the default setting. Meh, that's what I'll do.

Oh,I'm also quite disappointed of half-gients being Medium. I really don't like that. Goliath could at MOST be quarter-giants, not half. Half-giants MUST be large, even if that means reintroducing equivalent levels or make them a NPC race.

I'm overall overly happy about Dark Sun's return.


----------



## Dice4Hire (Jun 3, 2010)

Well, medium Half-giants is a mark of 4E on the setting. For better or worse. I am curious (and a little apprehensive) about what other ones are lurking out there.


----------



## TheLastRogue (Jun 3, 2010)

Sadira = a cosmic sorcerer, right?

At least from what I recall of the books, that seems the best take on her.


----------



## Scribble (Jun 3, 2010)

Danzauker said:


> Oh,I'm also quite disappointed of half-gients being Medium. I really don't like that. Goliath could at MOST be quarter-giants, not half. Half-giants MUST be large, even if that means reintroducing equivalent levels or make them a NPC race.




Just out of curiosity how come?

I mean size ranges in D&D aren't really super accurate.   Since a lot of giants are "large" I'm ok with 1/2 giants being on the higher end of medium.


----------



## Danzauker (Jun 3, 2010)

Scribble said:


> Just out of curiosity how come?
> 
> I mean size ranges in D&D aren't really super accurate.   Since a lot of giants are "large" I'm ok with 1/2 giants being on the higher end of medium.




Yes, I know they are. And in 4e they are even less accurate (they got rid of Colossal, after all).

But if dwarves are on the low end of Medium, and "regular" goliath are on the high end of Medium, I'd really wish half-giants to be on the lower end of Large.

I don't care what race you reskin to start from, but in my mind can't cope with a half-giant that's smaller than an ogre. 

I think the single most defining characteristic of the race was its sheer size. I really though it was time to experiment with Large size playable races, expecially in a non standard setting like Dark Sun.


----------



## doctorhook (Jun 3, 2010)

Danzauker said:


> Yes, I know they are. And in 4e they are even less accurate (they got rid of Colossal, after all).



Untrue. Colossal doesn't exist as a category anymore, sure, but creatures of that size definitely still exist. They're just called "Gargantuan" now. Gargantuan is anything bigger than Huge, with no upper limit.



Danzauker said:


> But if dwarves are on the low end of Medium, and "regular" goliath are on the high end of Medium, I'd really wish half-giants to be on the lower end of Large.
> 
> I don't care what race you reskin to start from, but in my mind can't cope with a half-giant that's smaller than an ogre.
> 
> I think the single most defining characteristic of the race was its sheer size. I really though it was time to experiment with Large size playable races, expecially in a non standard setting like Dark Sun.



I don't buy it. Too much balance will have to be thrown out the window to include Large player races. (Hell, too much has to be thrown out to even just allow Large _weapons_.) As soon as Large PC race became available, you can bet your butt that nearly every melee build on the CharOp boards will have been updated to use the new Large race, because Large will almost certainly allow Large weapons and reach, which are extremely beneficial.

As far as I'm concerned, Goliaths will be a fine substitute for Half-Giants. What role does one play that the other doesn't? Goliaths are "the big race" now. These races would be redundant together. Just pretend your Goliath is 10' tall if that's what you need in order to be happy with him.


----------



## Mouseferatu (Jun 3, 2010)

BTW, now that I've contributed to the thread, I can allow my pedantic side to come through and point out that "hype" is either a noun or a verb, not an adjective. Someone can be "hyped" for something, but not "hype" for it.


----------



## Scribble (Jun 3, 2010)

Mouseferatu said:


> BTW, now that I've contributed to the thread, I can allow my pedantic side to come through and point out that "hype" is either a noun or a verb, not an adjective. Someone can be "hyped" for something, but not "hype" for it.




unhype for mouseferatu- he's like an english teacher wrapped up in a big giant stoopidface!   


But in reality, I am HYPE for Darksun, because my pure soul essence transmogrifies into a state of pure HYPE.  Like Jesus (when he does that dude into deity trick.)

Just let your soul gloooooooooooooooooooooooow.

WORD.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz (Jun 3, 2010)

Mouseferatu, you may be fighting the good fight in a losing battle of the culture wars:  all kinds of words these days are being truncated and used incorrectly...like "conversate."

As in, "See that honey over there?  I'm gonna roll up and conversate with her..."


----------



## Mouseferatu (Jun 3, 2010)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Mouseferatu, you may be fighting the good fight in a losing battle of the culture wars:




No doubt. Still, I shall fight to the end! Where there is an "it's" used as a possessive; pluralization via apostrophe; or "less" used instead of "fewer"--I shall appear!

No retreat, no surrender!


----------



## Dannyalcatraz (Jun 4, 2010)

_*joins Mouseferatu in the trenches as a Gerundeer, 1st Grammar Corp.*_


----------



## Jdvn1 (Jun 4, 2010)

Oh, man, I hear "conversate" and incorrect usage of less/fewer _all_ the time. It's so frustrating.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz (Jun 4, 2010)

[_MUA'DIB_]*Join us!*[_/MUA'DIB_]


----------



## doctorhook (Jun 4, 2010)

I'm hype for Dark Sun...


----------



## Dice4Hire (Jun 4, 2010)

I was kinda hoping Hype was a newish slang, but I guess not.,


----------



## Scribble (Jun 4, 2010)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> _*joins Mouseferatu in the trenches as a Gerundeer, 1st Grammar Corp.*_




YOU WILL NEVER WIN!!!

You have to do things all proper grammar like. We can do what we like... and can even speel it like weez wants to yo!

And we get cool sunglasses- you don't.

I called it, so it's true. NYA!!!!


----------



## Dannyalcatraz (Jun 4, 2010)

Scribble said:


> YOU WILL NEVER WIN!!!
> 
> 
> ...we get cool sunglasses- you don't.




Dude...my mirrorshades would have been stolen many times over but for the fact that they're prescription.

As for winning?  Destiny may not favor us, but we will not go down without a fight!


----------



## Squizzle (Jun 4, 2010)

Prescriptivism is for suckers. All the cool linguists are descriptivists.


----------



## SkidAce (Jun 4, 2010)

I prefer the description...cunning linguist.

/ducks


----------



## Mouseferatu (Jun 4, 2010)

The sad thing about my history with Dark Sun (he said, trying desperately to undo his own hijack ) is that, while I love, love, _love_ the setting, I never got to actually play in it. 

(Well, I played the first DS computer game, Shattered Lands. But I never got to play in an actual D&D game of DS--or even play the computer sequel.)

The same's actually true of one of my other all-time favorites, Al-Qadim. Played the computer game--several times--but never got to actually play in the setting.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz (Jun 4, 2010)

HEY!  No ducking after THAT joke.


----------



## doctorhook (Jun 4, 2010)

SkidAce said:


> I prefer the description...cunning linguist.
> 
> /ducks






Mouseferatu said:


> The sad thing about my history with Dark Sun (he said, trying desperately to undo his own hijack ) is that, while I love, love, _love_ the setting, I never got to actually play in it.
> 
> (Well, I played the first DS computer game, Shattered Lands. But I never got to play in an actual D&D game of DS--or even play the computer sequel.)
> 
> The same's actually true of one of my other all-time favorites, Al-Qadim. Played the computer game--several times--but never got to actually play in the setting.



Despite your best efforts, Mr Marmell, the poster directly above you has already killed that particular threadjack with extreme(ly awkward) prejudice.

...Never played it? I never would have met Planescape if not for Planescape:Torment on PC. Which I also never played. Yeah, I'm just talking for talking's sake.


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## WanderingMonster (Jun 4, 2010)

Mouseferatu said:


> BTW, now that I've contributed to the thread, I can allow my pedantic side to come through and point out that "hype" is either a noun or a verb, not an adjective. Someone can be "hyped" for something, but not "hype" for it.




My hype for Drak Sun know no limit.


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## mgbeach (Jun 4, 2010)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> HEY!  No ducking after THAT joke.




mallard, pintail, teal, daffy

/ducks


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jun 4, 2010)

mgbeach said:


> mallard, pintail, teal, daffy
> 
> /ducks




Clearly, Ma'llard, thou'rt afflicted with a strange mallardy, speaking in such a daffy fashion.  Shall I fetch the your personal physician or the village quack?


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## Dice4Hire (Jun 4, 2010)

Scribble said:


> *Post deleted due to multiple grammatical errors. *
> by order of the Grammar Police.
> 
> 
> ...


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## Scribble (Jun 4, 2010)

Mouseferatu said:


> The sad thing about my history with Dark Sun (he said, trying desperately to undo his own hijack ) is that, while I love, love, _love_ the setting, I never got to actually play in it.
> 
> (Well, I played the first DS computer game, Shattered Lands. But I never got to play in an actual D&D game of DS--or even play the computer sequel.)
> 
> The same's actually true of one of my other all-time favorites, Al-Qadim. Played the computer game--several times--but never got to actually play in the setting.




I never got to play in Al-Qadim either, but I did run it a few times.  I loved the setting but my group just wasn't as into it.

I only ever actually played in a few games of Dark Sun... Back in the day it just wasn't my thing. I was more of an all things must be Tolkien guy, so Dark Sun just bugged me.

These days I'm not so much that anymore, and I'm really looking forward to seeing a 4e Dark Sun. (Plus I think the setting will work really well for the game concepts.)


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## Danzauker (Jun 4, 2010)

doctorhook said:


> Untrue. Colossal doesn't exist as a category anymore, sure, but creatures of that size definitely still exist. They're just called "Gargantuan" now. Gargantuan is anything bigger than Huge, with no upper limit.




That's exactly what I said. If a category has no game effect it's just fluff, so rules-wise it does not exist. 



doctorhook said:


> I don't buy it. Too much balance will have to be thrown out the window to include Large player races. (Hell, too much has to be thrown out to even just allow Large _weapons_.) As soon as Large PC race became available, you can bet your butt that nearly every melee build on the CharOp boards will have been updated to use the new Large race, because Large will almost certainly allow Large weapons and reach, which are extremely beneficial.
> 
> As far as I'm concerned, Goliaths will be a fine substitute for Half-Giants. What role does one play that the other doesn't? Goliaths are "the big race" now. These races would be redundant together. Just pretend your Goliath is 10' tall if that's what you need in order to be happy with him.




Given that line of reasoning, then I should be happy to play a Medium pixie, or a bipedal centaur, because Tiny and four legged creatures "throw balance out of the window"?

No, thanks, as long as I am concerned, sometimes fluff is not enough. Wnen it's needed I want to have mechanics to reflect the description. If it can't be done, I prefer to leave the thing in NPC world.


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## Scribble (Jun 4, 2010)

Maybe Goliaths aren't "really" part giant, just people call them that because they're all big n stuff.

Kind of like Andre the giant. He wasn't really a giant, but people were like that dude is all big- he's like a giant. A giant named Andre. Go ye and make a name for yourself fighting Hulk Hogan Giant whose name be Andre.

So people in Dark Sun, most of whom (did I use whom right Mousy???) have never seen a giant, are like "Dude that guy is HUGE! He must be like half giant or something! What kind of giant are you half of Giganto????"

"I'm actually a Goliath-"

And then some all science minded Dark Sun scholar is like "Technically he would be considered still a part of the "Medium" size category, and not either "Huge," or "Large," as one might expect from something considered to be even Half-Giant and-"

"Shut up nerd.  Giganto the Half Giant is the man.""


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## doctorhook (Jun 4, 2010)

Danzauker said:


> That's exactly what I said. If a category has no game effect it's just fluff, so rules-wise it does not exist.



It does have an effect: Gargantuan creatures have a default base-size of four by four squares, but can be larger than this. If you want a creature that was "Colossal" in 3.5E to be the same size in 4E, call it Gargantuan and give it a base-size of six by six squares. Done.

As I'm rereading this debate, it occurs to me that I'm not even sure what your argument here is, except that you think we need Colossal again...



Danzauker said:


> Given that line of reasoning, then I should be happy to play a Medium pixie, or a bipedal centaur, because Tiny and four legged creatures "throw balance out of the window"?



Yes, you should be. You could probably safely make your pixie-race Small though. Is quadrupedalism unbalanced? I don't know, but if it is, then you should be happy to have a balanced version offered to you, even if it means you're now playing a satyr instead of a centaur. You can use fluff to make up the difference. 



Danzauker said:


> No, thanks, as long as I am concerned, sometimes fluff is not enough. Wnen it's needed I want to have mechanics to reflect the description. If it can't be done, I prefer to leave the thing in NPC world.



Why are "the mechanics" _needed_ now? 4E already has a big, giant-related race -- they're called goliaths. There's no role for a new half-giant race to play that goliaths can't. If you went ahead and included a new half-giant race anyway, you'd have to explain what the heck goliaths are (since they aren't half-giants) and why they're running around Athas...

...Because they will most definitely running around Athas this summer.


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## Herschel (Jun 4, 2010)

I am another that is super-stoked. I lovingly looked at my old box set at times trying to figure out how to convert it with minimal time/effort, then came the news I don't have to!


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## Celestian (Jun 4, 2010)

I liked reading the original setting but I'd never use it. It's just to "weird" for my tastes (and my group). Has some really interesting ideas.

Now had it been DL or GH or even Oriental Adventures I'd be psyched for it.


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## RodneyThompson (Jun 4, 2010)

I am hype for Dark Sun.

_Take that, Marmell._


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## Mouseferatu (Jun 4, 2010)

Moridin said:


> I am hype for Dark Sun.
> 
> _Take that, Marmell._




Next time, Gadget! Next time!


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## mgbeach (Jun 5, 2010)

Here are three Dark Sun character sheets from the Penny Arcade Dark Sun game  podcast (Adult language in the podcasts)

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/DarkSun_TwoCoins.pdf
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/DarkSun_Tuzul.pdf
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/DarkSun_Mantis.pdf


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## TheLastRogue (Jun 5, 2010)

I'm so hype I've already started getting stuff ready for my next campaign . . . agony beetles, anyone?


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## CasvalRemDeikun (Jun 5, 2010)

While I am not hype for Dark Sun (not my taste), I am hype for people being hype for it.  As long as people are happy, I guess.

I would have much rather have seen Dragonlance, but I guess I can hang onto my money until it comes out, if ever.


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## Danzauker (Jun 6, 2010)

doctorhook said:


> It does have an effect: Gargantuan creatures have a default base-size of four by four squares, but can be larger than this. If you want a creature that was "Colossal" in 3.5E to be the same size in 4E, call it Gargantuan and give it a base-size of six by six squares. Done.
> 
> As I'm rereading this debate, it occurs to me that I'm not even sure what your argument here is, except that you think we need Colossal again...




I have no argument, I'm not asking for Colossal creatures now. I don't recakk who called on them.



doctorhook said:


> Yes, you should be. You could probably safely make your pixie-race Small though. Is quadrupedalism unbalanced? I don't know, but if it is, then you should be happy to have a balanced version offered to you, even if it means you're now playing a satyr instead of a centaur. You can use fluff to make up the difference.




Well, I don't think I "should" be happy of every bone thrown at me, and I sure would NOT be happy. Of playing a satyr instead of a centaur.

Between some limits I'm more than happy to use fluff to differentiate things. Sometimes though the limits are crossed.

Otherwise, why create more than 10 races in the books? Why not use just humans and describe them as pointy-eared, or short and nimble, or big and scaly, and that's all?

I agree the limit is personal, but when I think it's crossed I don't know why I "should" be happy with it.



doctorhook said:


> Why are "the mechanics" _needed_ now? 4E already has a big, giant-related race -- they're called goliaths. There's no role for a new half-giant race to play that goliaths can't. If you went ahead and included a new half-giant race anyway, you'd have to explain what the heck goliaths are (since they aren't half-giants) and why they're running around Athas...
> 
> ...Because they will most definitely running around Athas this summer.




They will be not running around MY Athas.


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## doctorhook (Jun 6, 2010)

Danzauker said:


> I have no argument, I'm not asking for Colossal creatures now. I don't recakk who called on them.



'Twas you, sir.
[sblock]







Danzauker said:


> Yes, I know they are. And in 4e they are even  less accurate (they got rid of Colossal, after all).



[/sblock]



Danzauker said:


> Well, I don't think I "should" be happy of every bone thrown at me, and I sure would NOT be happy. Of playing a satyr instead of a centaur.
> 
> Between some limits I'm more than happy to use fluff to differentiate things. Sometimes though the limits are crossed.
> 
> ...



Fair enough. Don't hold your breath for any Large or Tiny races soon though.



Danzauker said:


> They will be not running around MY Athas.



Don't play in any official events set in Athas, then:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/DarkSun_Mantis.pdf


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## Danzauker (Jun 7, 2010)

doctorhook said:


> 'Twas you, sir.




Didn't even remember.  What I meant there is that I know that 4e reduced the number of size classes and coalesced creatures in the remaining ones. This in general caused a sort of "domino shift" of really big creatures, expecially Giants, towards the smaller categories.

After all, if a Titan *has* to be bigger than a Giant, and tha mazimum size category is Gargantuan, then a Giant must at maximum be Huge, and so on.

Still, in order to appeal *me*, a half-giant HAS to be Laege. 




doctorhook said:


> Fair enough. Don't hold your breath for any Large or Tiny races soon though.




Unfortunately, I know, but I hope the fandom can quicly solve this problem. 



doctorhook said:


> Don't play in any official events set in Athas, then:
> http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/DarkSun_Mantis.pdf




I never played an official event, I doubt I will ever do, and I frankly don't care, so it's not an issue for me.


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## Dr_Ruminahui (Jun 8, 2010)

Put me down as another of the "not hype" - in my gaming group the DM always creates his own campaign setting, and nothing in Dark Sun jumps out at me as being a good fit for the campaign I'm running.

That said, the setting sounds awesome, and to me sounds like the coolest WotC setting yet for 4e (I quite dislike FR, Eberon seems neat but doesn't really grab me, while DS oozes flavour).  I do think its great that its such a good fit for so many of you here - as I said, it sounds awesome, and I look forward to hearing of the experiences of those who do end up running or playing in a Dark Sun game.

So, don't imagine that my own lack of hype will hold your own enthusiasm back - and I sincerely hope that it doesn't!


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## Scribble (Jun 8, 2010)

Dr_Ruminahui said:


> Put me down as another of the "not hype" - in my gaming group the DM always creates his own campaign setting, and nothing in Dark Sun jumps out at me as being a good fit for the campaign I'm running.
> 
> That said, the setting sounds awesome, and to me sounds like the coolest WotC setting yet for 4e (I quite dislike FR, Eberon seems neat but doesn't really grab me, while DS oozes flavour).  I do think its great that its such a good fit for so many of you here - as I said, it sounds awesome, and I look forward to hearing of the experiences of those who do end up running or playing in a Dark Sun game.
> 
> So, don't imagine that my own lack of hype will hold your own enthusiasm back - and I sincerely hope that it doesn't!




It does not. 

My hype grows on a daily basis... I wish it was already August! (It kind of sucks to wish your life away though.)


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## mgbeach (Jun 9, 2010)

Anyone interested should check out Dragon 387.. there's a preview of the Anakore in there.  Also, a profile (and stats) for sorcerer-king Nibenay.


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## Dice4Hire (Jun 9, 2010)

I am also quite hype[i[*D[/i]* for Dark Sun.

The question is not will I run a campaign, but how many. I am hoping two, one face to face and one via yahoogroups. 

Am thinking now how to differentiate them well enough.


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## firesnakearies (Jun 9, 2010)

There are two kinds of D&D players in the world:


Those who think that _*Dark Sun*_ is the most awesome D&D setting ever...


...and those who are wrong.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jun 12, 2010)

To paraphrase LL Cool J:

_I'm goin' back to Athas
Athas
Athas
I'm goin' back to Athas

Yo man, I don't think so._

By which I mean, despite the fact that I'm buying the thing, I'm never running it.  And my personal instinct is that nobody else in my current group will either.


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## Dice4Hire (Jun 12, 2010)

firesnakearies said:


> There are two kinds of D&D players in the world:
> 
> 
> Those who think that _*Dark Sun*_ is the most awesome D&D setting ever...
> ...




Setting wars for a change of pace?


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## Mort_Q (Jun 13, 2010)

Dice4Hire said:


> Well, medium Half-giants is a mark of 4E on the setting. For better or worse. I am curious (and a little apprehensive) about what other ones are lurking out there.




Perhaps they'll have a Paragon Path that (like the racial levels in _Arcana Unearthed_'s Giants) that lets them... grow Large?


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## Squizzle (Jun 13, 2010)

Mort_Q said:


> Perhaps they'll have a Paragon Path that (like the racial levels in _Arcana Unearthed_'s Giants) that lets them... grow Large?



Stoneblessed is right in PHB2, and grants reach +1, with threatening reach for one round as an encounter power. At epic, Eternal Defender from _Martial Power_ is available to fighters, and grants reach +1 if Medium ("or larger"), and ability to wield Large weapons, without actually increasing on-map "footprint".


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## Nork (Jun 13, 2010)

Squizzle said:


> Stoneblessed is right in PHB2, and grants reach +1, with threatening reach for one round as an encounter power. At epic, Eternal Defender from _Martial Power_ is available to fighters, and grants reach +1 if Medium ("or larger"), and ability to wield Large weapons, without actually increasing on-map "footprint".




Great observation.  Stoneblessed lets a half-giant player get some more half-giant mechanics without making them overpowered.

Maybe there will be some really nice and focused half giant, mul and thri-kreen racial paragon paths that let them have a 'racial advantage' without being mechanically overpowered.


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## doctorhook (Jun 13, 2010)

Dice4Hire said:


> Setting wars for a change of pace?



Eberron 4ever! Everybody else, never! 



Mort_Q said:


> Perhaps they'll have a Paragon Path that... lets them... grow Large?



I sure hope not.



Squizzle said:


> Stoneblessed is right in PHB2, and grants reach +1, with threatening reach for one round as an encounter power. At epic, Eternal Defender from _Martial Power_ is available to fighters, and grants reach +1 if Medium ("or larger"), and ability to wield Large weapons, without actually increasing on-map "footprint".



IMO, Stoneblessed is broken, especially if it's allowed to stack with Eternal Defender; in my game, sources of reach (other than weapons and size) don't stack, because I don't like the idea of a Medium-sized creature -- other than Stretch Armstrong, Mr Fantastic, or Dhalsim -- being able to physically punch somebody from 15 feet away.

Incidentally, I think 4E has room for a PC race with stretchy-rubber arms.


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## Phaezen (Jun 13, 2010)

Mort_Q said:


> Perhaps they'll have a Paragon Path that (like the racial levels in _Arcana Unearthed_'s Giants) that lets them... grow Large?






doctorhook said:


> I sure hope not.




There is already a defender Epic Destiny that grows the character a size.  Possibly something similar to that for goliaths?


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## doctorhook (Jun 13, 2010)

Phaezen said:


> There is already a defender Epic Destiny that grows the character a size.  Possibly something similar to that for goliaths?



If you're talking about the Eternal Defender epic destiny discussed above, you should be aware that it doesn't actually increase your size category; it merely increases your character's height and weight, and grants you reach and the ability to wield Large weapons.


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## cignus_pfaccari (Jun 13, 2010)

doctorhook said:


> If you're talking about the Eternal Defender epic destiny discussed above, you should be aware that it doesn't actually increase your size category; it merely increases your character's height and weight, and grants you reach and the ability to wield Large weapons.




And it really needs to be renamed Eternal Offender; it's far, far better for beating stuff down than defending.  But that's neither here nor there.

Brad


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## Jhaelen (Jun 14, 2010)

doctorhook said:


> If you're talking about the Eternal Defender epic destiny discussed above, you should be aware that it doesn't actually increase your size category; it merely increases your character's height and weight, and grants you reach and the ability to wield Large weapons.



But there's an epic destiny that will allow you to use your wildshape ability to turn into a Large creature


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## A2Z (Jun 14, 2010)

Mort_Q said:


> Perhaps they'll have a Paragon Path that (like the racial levels in _Arcana Unearthed_'s Giants) that lets them... grow Large?



4E giants are large already. So it makes sense a 4E half-giant would be medium. If he grew to large he'd just be a 'giant'.


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## Scribble (Jul 28, 2010)

So Close!!!!


Who's HYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYPPPEEE!!!!


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## abyssaldeath (Jul 28, 2010)

Every time I see this thread title "Hot for Teacher" goes through my head.


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## Mouseferatu (Jul 28, 2010)

Or "Hot for Creature," this being D&D and all.


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## mgbeach (Jul 29, 2010)

Wonder what the actual day in stores will be. I think officially its the 17th but the Demonomicon was supposed to be like the 20th of July and came out a couple weeks before that.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 29, 2010)

_Oh wow man, I said
Wait a second, man
What doy you think the creature's going to look like THIS room?
FUUDGE!_

Oh yeah, c-c-creature stop that screamin'
Creature don't you see?  Don't wanna be Underdark's fool
Maybe I will go to hell, but I'm fighting well
Creature wants to bathe me in its drool

I think of all the AoOs I've missed
But then my target was never slow like this!

Ow! Hit it bad, hit it bad hit it bad...
I'm hot for creature!
I struck it bad, soooooooooo bad...
I'm hot for creature!

_Hey, I heard you missed us, we're back!
I brought my longsword
Give me something to fight with, man!
WHOAAAAA!  UNH!_

I heard about your talons, talons oh so cold
I didn't see you in this place
Little thing from the fAr ReALmS, how can you be so bold
How did you know 'bout folding space?

I think of all the AoOs I've missed
But then my target was never slow like this!

Ow! Hit it bad, hit it bad hit it bad...
I'm hot for creature!
I struck it bad, soooooooooo bad...
I'm hot for creature!

_Hey, man, I think the Vrock is Slowed
What are you doin' this combat?
I don't feel bloodied
ASSSSSSSS DISPELLED!_

Ow! Hit it bad, hit it bad hit it bad...
I'm hot for creature!

Whoa, yes I'm HOT!
Whoa, yes I'm HOT!
Oh my gods!
Woooo!


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## Aegeri (Jul 29, 2010)

Can't wait for Dark Sun. I will be running a PoL game, Eberron and a Dark Sun campaign. I love me some variation!

I quietly hope they implement themes into non-Dark Sun settings though.


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