# A letter in Dragon Magazine



## Aeson (Jun 15, 2005)

Written by a woman talked about women in gaming. She seems to think women are treated differently in D&D by the writers and gamers alike. According to her some male gamers treat them badly. Is her feelings founded? I didn't the women I've gamed with were treated poorly.

Also in Eric Mona's reply he said the percentage of women in gaming was rather small but I forget the number. I'm wondering if that number is reflected here. Would it be around the same?


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## Xath (Jun 15, 2005)

I believe the billion post discussion about this similar topic can be found in the "I'm a Girl, get over it" thread.  I don't know where it is, and I can't search.


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## BOZ (Jun 15, 2005)

i wouldn't know where to find that.


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## Aeson (Jun 15, 2005)

I was afraid there was another already.


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## Aeson (Jun 15, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> i wouldn't know where to find that.



Thanks that why they call you THE Boz around these parts.


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## Darth K'Trava (Jun 15, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> i wouldn't know where to find that.





Nope, you wouldn't....


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## mojo1701 (Jun 15, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> Nope, you wouldn't....




Give him a chance...


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## Darth K'Trava (Jun 15, 2005)

mojo1701 said:
			
		

> Give him a chance...





I think he's already proved that....


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## BOZ (Jun 16, 2005)

i don't have to prove myself - i'm tried and true!


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## Teflon Billy (Jun 16, 2005)

That girl in the other thread was one of the biggest attention whores this board has ever drawn to it.


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## reveal (Jun 16, 2005)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> That girl in the other thread was one of the biggest attention whores this board has ever drawn to it.




I think I read maybe one page of that thread and I definitely pegged her as someone wanting attention.


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## Aeson (Jun 16, 2005)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> That girl in the other thread was one of the biggest attention whores this board has ever drawn to it.



Thats not real helpful.


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## Darth K'Trava (Jun 16, 2005)

Aeson said:
			
		

> Thats not real helpful.




Not to mention not being nice.


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## The_Universe (Jun 16, 2005)

Aeson said:
			
		

> Thats not real helpful.



 But it doesn't make it any less true.  

Anyway, as to the topic of discussion: 

I think some gamers do treat women differently on a conscious level.  For the most part, however, I think males just treat women like they would in any other social situation.  If you're courteous (or not) in normal social situations that involve women, I suspect that same unsconscious bias will carry over to games.


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## reveal (Jun 16, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> Not to mention not being nice.




But it's true. She came on here and said "I'm a gamer girl; aren't I pretty? Oh, did I mention I gamed?!" and that was really all she ever added. It might not be a perfect phrase, but it did fit this one woman pretty well. Heck, she hasn't been back since.

On-topic: Men should treat women with respect in all situations just as women should treat men with respect in all situations. And that's all I have to say about that.


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## Aeson (Jun 16, 2005)

Most people here want attention. They wouldn't post if they didn't want to be listened to.


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## Hijinks (Jun 16, 2005)

> But it's true. She came on here and said "I'm a gamer girl; aren't I pretty? Oh, did I mention I gamed?!" and that was really all she ever added.



 Not true.  She also said she was a cheerleader, or at least, to paraphrase, "I look more like a cheerleader than a gamer so the gamers don't take me seriously."  Which was called, and rightly so, as a pathetic pay-attention-to-me gesture.


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## reveal (Jun 16, 2005)

Hijinks said:
			
		

> Not true.  She also said she was a cheerleader, or at least, to paraphrase, "I look more like a cheerleader than a gamer so the gamers don't take me seriously."  Which was called, and rightly so, as a pathetic pay-attention-to-me gesture.




How silly of me to have forgotten that.


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## reveal (Jun 16, 2005)

Aeson said:
			
		

> Most people here want attention. They wouldn't post if they didn't want to be listened to.




Posting to have people read your thoughts on a subject and posting for solely the sake of people paying attention to you are two different things.

If I post a new scientific theory, then I'm posting because I want people to read my ideas. If I post a new theory and say "I'm the smartest man alive and I should be nominated for a Nobel prize!" in the same paragraph, that's just begging for attention.


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## Hand of Evil (Jun 16, 2005)

This was the breakdown from GENCON 2004 which I think can be taken to be the market:


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## Goddess FallenAngel (Jun 16, 2005)

I haven't read the other thread, so if I repeat something, feel free to harrass me about it. 

Frankly, as a female gamer, I have been treated differently. I'm not saying everyone does it, but it does happen a large percentage of the time. A few highlights:

1.) In one gaming group I was in, I played one of three female characters in the group. I was, however, the only female *player* in the group at the time, and for about 1/2 the group, the only female they'd ever gamed with. My character had a Cha of 10, and I described her as very plain (more descriptive than that, but that’s what it boils down to). One of the other female PCs had a Cha of 18. I’ll mention that this was a 2nd edition D&D game using Player’s Option books just to heighten the difference between 18 (close to the highest you could ever get) and 10.

My character was hit on. Constantly. By NPCs, the male PCs, and one of the female PCs whom had apparently just realized she was a lesbian (not the 18 Cha PC). You’re going to have to talk fast to tell me it wasn’t because of metagaming on the behalf of the other (all male) players and DM.

2.) The FLGS in my own (admittedly small and somewhat redneck) hometown was owned by someone I’ll refer to as S. S _always_ gave me dirty looks when I walked in, and was rude whenever I was there – even when I was purchasing something (which, except for three tournament games, was all the time). On the other hand, I witnessed him being perfectly happy and polite to everyone else – as long as they were male. I do have to make the disclaimer that I only every saw one other girl in the store; she also bought gaming items and suffered the same rudeness I did. I eventually stopped going to that store and drove 45 minutes to get to another one.

3.) I’ve been told that I “can’t game, you’re a woman” with one of the most rude tones I’ve ever heard.

There's more, but I don't feel like typing everything up at the moment, and y'all probably don't feel like reading them anyway.

It’s actually gotten better since the advent of D&D 3rd edition, as gaming in general has been moving into the mainstream – and I think many female gamers are ‘coming out of the closet’ so to speak about their hobby.


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## Aeson (Jun 16, 2005)

I never noticed women being treated differently thats why created the thread. I wanted to see if it happened. 

I'm seeing the response to "girls in gaming" threads I guess I can see where their coming from.


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## Elf Witch (Jun 16, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> Not to mention not being nice.




But very very true.


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## Elf Witch (Jun 16, 2005)

Aeson said:
			
		

> I never noticed women being treated differently thats why created the thread. I wanted to see if it happened.
> 
> I'm seeing the response to "girls in gaming" threads I guess I can see where their coming from.




I have noticed in my one gaming group that us girls are treated a little different by some of the male players.

For example no matter what style character we play we are never allowed to be the face of the group. I gurantee one of us could play a paladin with tons of charisma but the half orc barbarian would end up being the face.  

In other groups I have not seen this.  I have noticed the younger the players the less likely is this to be a problem.


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## Joker (Jun 16, 2005)

What made up the rest 4%?


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## Del (Jun 16, 2005)

I was once in a gaming group consisting of mostly women. 6 or 7 people.

The game was odd, because sex and having children seemed to be a big part of their game. With the guys I gamed with before we NEVER had characters with children.


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## Darth K'Trava (Jun 16, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> But it's true. She came on here and said "I'm a gamer girl; aren't I pretty? Oh, did I mention I gamed?!" and that was really all she ever added. It might not be a perfect phrase, but it did fit this one woman pretty well. Heck, she hasn't been back since.




She'd go under being a troll.



> On-topic: Men should treat women with respect in all situations just as women should treat men with respect in all situations. And that's all I have to say about that.




I agree.  It should be an equal partnership in alot of things. No "I'm better than you!" or "If you don't do 'X', then you won't get any tonight!" sort of crap. That's lame and totally unnecessary. Not to mention a quick way to end a relationship.


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## reveal (Jun 16, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> I agree.  It should be an equal partnership in alot of things. No "I'm better than you!" or "If you don't do 'X', then you won't get any tonight!" sort of crap. That's lame and totally unnecessary. Not to mention a quick way to end a relationship.




Pffft. What do chicks know?


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## DaveMage (Jun 16, 2005)

Joker said:
			
		

> What made up the rest 4%?




Undecided.


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## Darth K'Trava (Jun 16, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> Pffft. What do chicks know?





More than some people, it seems....


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## Darth K'Trava (Jun 16, 2005)

Hijinks said:
			
		

> Not true.  She also said she was a cheerleader, or at least, to paraphrase, "I look more like a cheerleader than a gamer so the gamers don't take me seriously."  Which was called, and rightly so, as a pathetic pay-attention-to-me gesture.




It's about as bad as a girl we had at work one time who gloated to a group of elderly, crude male customers (regulars so I knew some of their mindsets..) that she made more money being a prostitute than at work... ANOTHER customer found offense and complained, costing her her job. She also gloated about forging checks.... Definitely an attention-hog demanding attention.


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## Darth K'Trava (Jun 16, 2005)

Elf Witch said:
			
		

> I have noticed in my one gaming group that us girls are treated a little different by some of the male players.
> 
> For example no matter what style character we play we are never allowed to be the face of the group. I gurantee one of us could play a paladin with tons of charisma but the half orc barbarian would end up being the face.
> 
> In other groups I have not seen this.  I have noticed the younger the players the less likely is this to be a problem.




We haven't had that problem. It's usually one or two people, the more assertive of the group. But it isn't a male-only thing to be the "face" of the party. 



			
				Del said:
			
		

> I was once in a gaming group consisting of mostly women. 6 or 7 people.
> 
> The game was odd, because sex and having children seemed to be a big part of their game. With the guys I gamed with before we NEVER had characters with children.




The only comments about sex came from one married couple in our group. Their characters usually end up together before it's all said and done in a campaign. But none have had children nor any talk of any.


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## Aeson (Jun 16, 2005)

ok we know some men act strangely towards women in games and some don't. How anout you ladies? Do you act differently in the company of men?


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## Darth K'Trava (Jun 16, 2005)

Aeson said:
			
		

> I never noticed women being treated differently thats why created the thread. I wanted to see if it happened.
> 
> I'm seeing the response to "girls in gaming" threads I guess I can see where their coming from.




As far as at a con, usually I don't get different treatment. Although I did have a gripe at an RPGA Living Force game where I was forced to make a character, on the spot, when I didn't have a clue about some of the different stuff they have in SW that's not in D&D. I reamed my friend a new one about the crappy treatment I got. His only excuse was that we were late (His fault as he kept chatting with people instead of paying attention to the time). It wasn't until I'd gotten to the table when I found out I couldn't use a pre-gen character; he'd given me 4 to choose from. Makes me hate the RPGA for their thrice-bedamned attitude towards a newbie who was wanting to try out SW gaming..       I've had more help from other DMs than this [bleep]hole of a DM in that game! 

Edit: I was the only female at that table and wasn't really welcomed there at all.   I guess the boys couldn't make their crude little jokes with me around... didn't stop my friend who, as a Jedi, made a comment about the wookiee taking a dump on a bad guy who was standing under him...   

I'll just stick with either gaming with friends or non-RPGA gaming for now on.   Less BS, MORE FUN!


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## Darth K'Trava (Jun 16, 2005)

Aeson said:
			
		

> ok we know some men act strangely towards women in games and some don't. How anout you ladies? Do you act differently in the company of men?





Nope. I'm a crass, crude, nutty person. Just like the guys.   

But why should I act differently around them? I just act like I always do. If they don't like it, oh, well... I'm there to have fun.


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## Aeson (Jun 16, 2005)

I'm the same way in real life as I am online or in a game. I lurk for awhile then I become comfortable then stick my foot in my mouth and be an a$$.

Actually for some reason I can be more charming and funny but still an a$$ online and in RL. go figure.


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## Teflon Billy (Jun 17, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> Not to mention not being nice.




Well, if memory serves you accused me of "wanting all women to be whores", so how surprised could you be?


The fact that there was no comment in the thread (or anywhere I'm aware of) kind of leaves you out in the cold as far as taking anyone to task for "not being nice" doesn't it?

My response to your slander was  this


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## Crothian (Jun 17, 2005)

TB has a long memory, the only thing longer then his memory are his grudges.  

That being said, I've been gaming wioth women for over 15 years now and I've seen them treated fine and not fine.  I try to treat them like one of the guys but its hard when they don't want to be one of the guys.  I've had some that act differently and then complain that I treat them differently.  But after gaming with lots of differnt people of all sorts of gender I have learned that the problem isn't with gender, its with the individuals.  There are males that act horrible and frankly need slapped aside the head and told how to behave.  And there are females that need to be told the same thing.  Its a fringe hobby this gaming, and it attracts some wonkers to it.


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## Aeson (Jun 17, 2005)

TB have you gamed with any women? How did the group act? Differently?


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## Teflon Billy (Jun 17, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> I try to treat them like one of the guys but its hard when they don't want to be one of the guys.  I've had some that act differently and then complain that I treat them differently.  But after gaming with lots of differnt people of all sorts of gender I have learned that the problem isn't with gender, its with the individuals.  There are males that act horrible and frankly need slapped aside the head and told how to behave.  And there are females that need to be told the same thing.  Its a fringe hobby this gaming, and it attracts some wonkers to it.




That'a about where we are as well, the women we currently game with are pretty hardcore abuot _gaming_. We've had more than one player (of both genders) join up becasue we are, well, fun people...but they lacked any desire to play beyond kibbitzing and catching up.

Only one of them actually "got into" the game, and she remains.

The two guys and the other girl are long gone. Still socialize with them, they just don't get invited to the weekly game.


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## Teflon Billy (Jun 17, 2005)

Aeson said:
			
		

> TB have you gamed with any women? How did the group act? Differently?




Well, about half the time when the "problem" in question was the girl herself, it was that she expected a far different game than the one we were playing. 

We drink, we holler at each other, the characters are generally unsavory (and I supect to a degree, the players are as well).

The 2 women I am referring to (2 seperate cases) seemed to feel that they deserved a more "Deferential" or "Respectful" manner at the table than our "Game Table Culture" (for want of a better term) had at that point.

We weren't interested in changing, so in one instance the girl left, and in the other I kicked her out.

Similar instances have occured with guys, but they were a lot less "Walking on eggshells" and handwringing about everything.

The really hilarious part was my buddy Martin, who--when a woman was at the table--became an endlessly deferential fellow Player, and basically a "sidekick to the lady" PC 

I love him, but he sucks


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## Teflon Billy (Jun 17, 2005)

Goddess FallenAngel said:
			
		

> It’s actually gotten better since the advent of D&D 3rd edition, as gaming in general has been moving into the mainstream – and I think many female gamers are ‘coming out of the closet’ so to speak about their hobby.




The actual "Quantum Leap Forward" as far as inclusiveness for women in tabletop RPG's was the publication of *Vampire: the Masquerade*.

Women present in the hobby increased by orders of magnitude.


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## HellHound (Jun 17, 2005)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> The actual "Quantum Leap Forward" as far as inclusiveness for women in tabletop RPG's was the publication of *Vampire: the Masquerade*.
> 
> Women present in the hobby increased by orders of magnitude.




I was about to say the same thing. I know the gaming clubs at both Universities I hung out at changed DRASTICALLY that year. A lot fo guys had big time issues adapting socially to the new atmosphere of gaming brought about by Vampire.

I'd dare to say that in almost every RPG I've played, I've seen SOME amount of different treatment towards women vs men.


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## Jarval (Jun 17, 2005)

I've never really seen women being treated any differently to men when it comes to role-playing, but that's probably mainly down to the fact that the vast majority of my gaming is done with my local university's Games Society, where about a third of the membership is female.

For that matter, my current D&D group (which isn't associated with the Games Society) actually has more female players than male.  Perhaps the gender demographic of role-players is different in the UK and Europe to the US?


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## Teflon Billy (Jun 17, 2005)

HellHound said:
			
		

> ...I was about to say the same thing. I know the gaming clubs at both Universities I hung out at changed DRASTICALLY that year. A lot fo guys had big time issues adapting socially to the new atmosphere of gaming brought about by Vampire...




Yeah, it was something to see

I wasn't a memeber of a club, but a roomate had a byfriend who had left a copy at our place, and I was paging through it and bascally said aloud "I could run this for you guys if you like".

Turned into a group of 3 girls and two guys basically overnight.

We were all Goths, so there wasn't a lot to explain which was nice (though as used as I was to D&D and GURPS I was shocked by how easy it was in character generation to assign yourself  insane levels of wealth).

By the end of campaign, I had dated both of the girls (who weren't my roomate).

God I loved Vampire


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## Aeson (Jun 17, 2005)

I've played table top vampire a few time but not with women( wanted to). I even played the LARP this was with men and women(teenagers). It was interesting. I prefered the LARP. I think it was the girls that made it different.


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## devilbat (Jun 17, 2005)

I for one, really hope to run into Teflon Billy at Gen Con.  So I can buy the man a beer.


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## Aeson (Jun 17, 2005)

devilbat said:
			
		

> I for one, really hope to run into Teflon Billy at Gen Con.  So I can buy the man a beer.



Yeah he's a real stand up fella.


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## Teflon Billy (Jun 17, 2005)

devilbat said:
			
		

> I for one, really hope to run into Teflon Billy at Gen Con.  So I can buy the man a beer.




Aren't you in my *Star Thugs* game?


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## Quasqueton (Jun 17, 2005)

When a group of guys treat another guy badly, there's usually two reasons: The group of guys are jerks, or the target is a jerk.

When a group of guys treat a female badly, there's usually just one reason: The target is a female.

Few people seem to consider the possibility maybe the guys are just jerks to everyone, or that the female herself may actually be the jerk.

Just yesterday, I stopped by my local game shop to look at the DMG2. In the back was a group of folks organizing for some kind of card game tournament. [Who has a tournament a 5:30 on a Thursday?] There were about 6 guys and 1 girl. The girl was wearing a black sports-bra-type top, with no real bra underneath. Completely inappropriate for anywhere but a pool or a gym. Wonder if she was treated differently than the guys? Would it be her fault or the sexist-pig guys?

Quasqueton


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## Arnwyn (Jun 17, 2005)

Aeson said:
			
		

> Written by a woman talked about women in gaming. She seems to think women are treated differently in D&D by the writers and gamers alike. According to her some male gamers treat them badly. Is her feelings founded? I didn't the women I've gamed with were treated poorly.



Wild conjecture as I have no statistical demographic information to base my hypothesis on:

I suspect that women in gaming would be treated no differently than if they were the few female members of an almost all-male baseball league, an almost all-male running club, or an almost all-male social organization of any other sort. (And it might be thought of as "badly" because they may have different expectations of treatment than the majority is used to and/or willing to give.)

I'm unsure if "gaming" has anything to do with it.


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## The_Universe (Jun 17, 2005)

> When a group of guys treat another guy badly, there's usually two reasons: The group of guys are jerks, or the target is a jerk.



Now that's not true.  If guys "treat" you at all, it's probably because they like you. Guys tend to show affection by being jerks to each other.  It's weird, but it's the truth.  I used to great one of my best friends in college by saying, "You're stupid, we hate you, and you're stupid."  If a guy doesn't *like* another guy, they just avoid each other.  

At least in my experience.


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## Aeson (Jun 17, 2005)

Quasqueton said:
			
		

> Just yesterday, I stopped by my local game shop to look at the DMG2. In the back was a group of folks organizing for some kind of card game tournament. [Who has a tournament a 5:30 on a Thursday?] There were about 6 guys and 1 girl. The girl was wearing a black sports-bra-type top, with no real bra underneath. Completely inappropriate for anywhere but a pool or a gym. Wonder if she was treated differently than the guys? Would it be her fault or the sexist-pig guys?
> 
> Quasqueton




Teenagers would have a tourny at that time. If the guys there are anything like the ones I've seen in card tournys here they would not treat her poorly they would be too nervous and distracted which I think was her reason for dressing that way. Its her fault for what happens to a point. People should be able to control themselves keeping their thoughts and hands to themselves. She should not dress like that.


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## HellHound (Jun 17, 2005)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> Yeah, it was something to see
> 
> We were all Goths, so there wasn't a lot to explain which was nice




I do miss the days when black clothing, white faces, tattoos and body piercing were the standard for my gaming groups. Vampire is what got Denise (the uber-goth in my life) back into gaming. She had quit playing AD&D around the time that Unearthed Arcana was released, played a few games with my OD&D group that met weekly at the all-you-can-eat Pizza Hut (all you can eat pizza from 4 pm to 10 pm eh? Ok... we'll arrive at 3:30, order pitchers of drinks, and game until 10:00 - the pizza hut was really cool and it got to the point where they would hold our table for us and twice we even got dice back that we had lost the previous week), but finally came into the fold for Vampire. How couldn't she get hooked on Vampire? She was a role-model of gothness in our area - people would call her up out of the blue to ask what clothes they should be buying because they had just arrived in Montreal and discovered the cool stores there, and so on...


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## HellHound (Jun 17, 2005)

Del said:
			
		

> I was once in a gaming group consisting of mostly women. 6 or 7 people.
> 
> The game was odd, because sex and having children seemed to be a big part of their game. With the guys I gamed with before we NEVER had characters with children.




Interesting experience... I've had the opposite, myself.

The only game I've played in that involved characters with children was an all-male game of Pendragon - since we were knights and landowners, it was important to have heirs to our lands and titles.


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## Quasqueton (Jun 17, 2005)

> Guys tend to show affection by being jerks to each other. It's weird, but it's the truth. I used to great one of my best friends in college by saying, "You're stupid, we hate you, and you're stupid."



Possibly for guys under 25. I'm closing on 40, and if a friend said that to me, I'd respond, "If you mean that, I'll leave. If you don't mean it, don't say it."

Sure, there's the occassional, "You suck!" when someone takes a strategic territory in Risk, or something. Or the occassional calling of "B---h" to emphasize a statement. But there is rarely flat out insults and verbal assaults among friends I would hang with.

Quasqueton


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## The_Universe (Jun 17, 2005)

Quasqueton said:
			
		

> Possibly for guys under 25. I'm closing on 40, and if a friend said that to me, I'd respond, "If you mean that, I'll leave. If you don't mean it, don't say it."
> 
> Sure, there's the occassional, "You suck!" when someone takes a strategic territory in Risk, or something. Or the occassional calling of "B---h" to emphasize a statement. But there is rarely flat out insults and verbal assaults among friends I would hang with.
> 
> Quasqueton



 Maybe we're jerks then.  But methinks you're just a little oversensitive. Sheesh.


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## Quasqueton (Jun 17, 2005)

> Maybe we're jerks then. But methinks you're just a little oversensitive. Sheesh.



Over sensitive? Double sheesh.

Make that statement as the first reply (the "greet") on any thread in any forum of this board. See what the response is from the poster and from the mods.

I once knew some guys (in college) who really disliked another guy that constantly came over to their house. They berated and insulted him constantly. They thought it hilarious that he would take it all thinking they were just joking around with him. I asked them why they let him come over all the time if they hated him so. "'Cause it's fun. He's an idiot."

I knew some other guys whose idea of joking around with each other was constantly trying to kick or punch either other in the groin. I didn't hang around with them much or long, for fear of being brought into their "friendship".

I don't care for "negative" friendships.

Quasqueton


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## Rel (Jun 17, 2005)

On the one hand there is the sex thing (we can probably do without the obvious jokes that this sentence raises).  The fact is that men and women sometimes like each other and sometimes they like each other in that *very special way*.  Girls are great.  Gamers are great.  Girl Gamers are really great and my wife is one so I know what I'm talking about.

If a girl gamer joins a group then there is a good chance that one of the guys in said group is looking for a relationship and some overtures are likely to be made.  This is just the way of the world and there is nothing wrong with it.  Women might say, "look I didn't join this gaming group to get hit on."  That's fine but irrelevant.  You might not have gone out to a dance club or the grocery store to get hit on either but a guy there might find you attractive and ask you out regardless.  If you say "No" and he persists then he's a jerk but that's beside the point.  In life there will be folks who find you attractive and make advances.  It's a compliment so just accept it as such and move on.

Another thing that I think can be a contributing factor is that many (if not most) guys in gaming have seen a woman come into the game who was less interested in the actual gaming and more interested in being there with her boyfriend/husband.  Whether this was a matter of just wanting to be able to spend more time with him or trying to control him or (in the worst cases) seeking to poison the group so that it will disband and she can extract her man from the hobby, she was clearly not all that interested in actual gaming.

As a result many guys might have some suspicions that a female gamer entering the group could have other motives besides gaming.  Compounding this, because girl gamers may have been treated this way, they might have a chip on their shoulder about it.  This is a very fragile situation.

So, coming from a guy, my advice to girl gamers would be this:  Try and be tollerant.  Expect that upon entering a new group that somebody might hit on you.  Be good natured but firm in whatever your desires are regarding this.  It's a compliment, not harassment in most cases.  Show your interest in the game.  When you start quoting rules or engaging in good roleplaying the guys will probably get over any hangups or preconceptions that they might have.  Eventually everybody will sort things out and you'll all just be killing things and taking their stuff the way God intended it.


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## mojo1701 (Jun 17, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> Another thing that I think can be a contributing factor is that many (if not most) guys in gaming have seen a woman come into the game who was less interested in the actual gaming and more interested in being there with her boyfriend/husband.  Whether this was a matter of just wanting to be able to spend more time with him or trying to control him or (in the worst cases) seeking to poison the group so that it will disband and she can extract her man from the hobby, she was clearly not all that interested in actual gaming.




I call this the "Yoko Ono Scenario."


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## The_Universe (Jun 17, 2005)

> Make that statement as the first reply (the "greet") on any thread in any forum of this board. See what the response is from the poster and from the mods.



Now we're comparing apples and oranges, no? Messageboards have no way of communicating vocal tone, facial expression, or a host of other factors that go into what I generally consider "real" communication. Of course I'm not going to start every thread with "I hate you!" 

Not only are people unlikely to be able to tell if I'm kidding (smilies being notoriously unreliable), but they're also not actually my friends. They are, at best, acquainted with something I may have written in the past, which can hardly be said to encompass even a rough majority of my personality traits, general habits, etc. 

If you *were* my friend (and I tend to think you *could be* if we ever actually met) I'd probably joke around in much the same way - friendship isn't just hand-holding and compliments, unicorns and rainbows, etc. At the very least, it isn't with the people whom I actually consider friends. 

While you certainly sound reasonable in avoiding a "friendship" apparently based around the fine art of the "nutslap," you certainly *do* seem oversensitive when a playful insult among friends would raise your ire enough to drive you away. Perhaps my perspective is skewed - it may be that I have a vastly thicker skin than most, and so do most of my acqaintances. But then again, maybe _I'm_ not the statistical outlier. Just maybe.


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## reveal (Jun 17, 2005)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> ...friendship isn't just hand-holding and compliments, unicorns and rainbows, etc.




It's not?


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## The_Universe (Jun 17, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> It's not?



 Now don't cry, little buddy!  Why look - there's a rainbow over there! And it's smiling at you!


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## reveal (Jun 17, 2005)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> Now don't cry, little buddy!  Why look - there's a rainbow over there! And it's smiling at you!


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## The_Universe (Jun 17, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

>



 And to think just 4 posts ago I was criticising the expressive power of smilies...


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## Aeson (Jun 17, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

>



you two get a room.


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## HellHound (Jun 17, 2005)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> While you certainly sound reasonable in avoiding a "friendship" apparently based around the fine art of the "nutslap," you certainly *do* seem oversensitive when a playful insult among friends would raise your ire enough to drive you away. Perhaps my perspective is skewed - it may be that I have a vastly thicker skin than most, and so do most of my acqaintances. But then again, maybe _I'm_ not the statistical outlier. Just maybe.




Among my friends, insults are held back for when we are actually ANGRY with one another. Never light-heartedly because... well... insults are insulting and we've got enough faults (at least my friends and I do) without having our friends beating on us.


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## Nail (Jun 17, 2005)

Quasqueton said:
			
		

> Possibly for guys under 25. I'm closing on 40, and if a friend said that to me, I'd respond, "If you mean that, I'll leave. If you don't mean it, don't say it."
> 
> Sure, there's the occassional, "You suck!" when someone takes a strategic territory in Risk, or something. Or the occassional calling of "B---h" to emphasize a statement. But there is rarely flat out insults and verbal assaults among friends I would hang with.



That's been my experience too, in 3 different gaming groups over the last 4 years.

Back On-Topic: The primary difference in treatment I've seen between guys and girls is the Rules-set.  Usually the women defer to the men on how the rules work.   Usually, though not always.


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## Quasqueton (Jun 17, 2005)

> friendship isn't just hand-holding and compliments, unicorns and rainbows, etc.



I feel that friendship lies somewhere between, _"You're stupid, we hate you, and you're stupid"_ and _"hand-holding and compliments"_.

You have gone from saying, _"Guys tend to show affection by being jerks to each other...."_ and _"I used to great one of my best friends in college by saying..."_ to _"a playful insult among friends"_. It's like you are toning down your statements to make them seem less jerkish.

Quasqueton


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## Henry (Jun 17, 2005)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> If you *were* my friend (and I tend to think you *could be* if we ever actually met) I'd probably joke around in much the same way - friendship isn't just hand-holding and compliments, unicorns and rainbows, etc. At the very least, it isn't with the people whom I actually consider friends.




In my experience, males in the southeastern U.S. have raised friendly insults to an art-form (cue Jeff Foxworthy) 

However, people hear it all the time: We even give on these forums the highest compliment of "Rat Bastard" to the Dungeon Master who is the most challenging and clever, do we not? Among my high school and college friends, we would curse like sailors towards one another, especially when... er, beverages were flowing freely. And that's not to mention (but won't discuss) the subject of slurs and epithets among protected groups...


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## Aeson (Jun 17, 2005)

One of the primary reasons for asking was I introduced my cousin to D&D not long ago. At the time she was the only girl in the group and was nervous. I went to recruiting other girls so she wouldn't be alone. 

Like I said before I had not witnessed just heard of women not being treated well. I was a little concerned she would branch out and find a bad group.


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## Chimera (Jun 17, 2005)

My experience with five women who've played in my groups over the years;

D1 only played because it was a social event.  She didn't pay much attention to the game and didn't like it when bad things happened to her character.  She eventually decided that she'd rather watch TV while we gamed.  I respect that, I respect her.  She wasn't a hardcore gamer and wasn't really into the game.

D2 was a fairly active part of the game, but never in the forefront.  Sometimes she wandered off to talk to D1 instead of gaming.  As the years progressed, she played less and less.  Same as above, not a big deal.

K played in one game I ran.  She didn't have a lot of experience when she started and seemed to be a bit buried by a combination of personal reserve and the... 'game enthusiasm' of the male players.  I noticed this and made more of an effort to include her and make some of the game be about her character.  She responded and played very well.

L is the wife of one of my GMs.  Plays reasonably well, but seems to think that her husband should give her breaks, threatening out-of-game retaliation if he doesn't.  Got to the point where one of their long time friends and fellow players threatened to walk out if it happened again.  Hopefully she got the message.  (Especially after her character was killed at the end of the last session.)

K is the girlfriend of my other GM.  Roleplays very well and is an active part of the game.  There have been no issues *at all* with her gender.

Having played short-term and at Cons with a few other women, I can say that I've only experienced problems when;
1>  The women demand special treatment because they are women, or because of a
      relationship with the GM.  No.  Play under the same rules as me or take a hike.
2>  The women are attention hogs and aren't really playing the game.  
3>  Some small percentage of men have problems interacting with women.  
     This is their problem and I won't tolerate it at my game table.


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## The_Universe (Jun 17, 2005)

Quasqueton said:
			
		

> I feel that friendship lies somewhere between, _"You're stupid, we hate you, and you're stupid"_ and _"hand-holding and compliments"_.
> 
> You have gone from saying, _"Guys tend to show affection by being jerks to each other...."_ and _"I used to great one of my best friends in college by saying..."_ to _"a playful insult among friends"_. It's like you are toning down your statements to make them seem less jerkish.
> 
> Quasqueton



 Not at all. What I'm saying is that though they very well *might* seem "jerkish" to outsiders with little experience in what I consider a normal friendship, but are nonetheless par for the course for most platonic male/male relationships I have encountered.  The fact that I actually *did* say "You're stupid, and we hate you, and you're stupid" and that it was _nonetheless_ friendly seems to have been lost on you. 

I also refer to my skinny friends as "fat b-stards," among other things, regularly and viciously insult their mothers' virtue(s), and proclaim my intent to kick their asses with little provocation.  They do the same in return.  Strangely, none of them have developed eating disorders, a need for psychological treatment, or the desire to end our apparently inappropriate friendship...

And some of them are even over 25.  Perhaps time has simply not sharpened _our_ barbs to deadly seriousness?  



			
				Henry said:
			
		

> In my experience, males in the southeastern U.S. have raised friendly insults to an art-form (cue Jeff Foxworthy)



 Interestingly enough, I'm from the north central US (South Dakota) which I suppose is not culturally all that different from the southeast. Jeff Foxworthy and his ilk certainly remain popular in the region.  

Regardless, if you can't take it from me, take it from Henry. He makes a good point.  Insults are a way to communicate for most men without seeming to act "like women."  I shan't argue the total merit of the activity, but I think it's obvious that it's not *just* me and my buddies who act this way...

(on another note - Henry, perhaps *this* discussion should be split to a different thread, as it's at best tangentally related to the "girls in gaming" discussion?)


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## Rel (Jun 17, 2005)

Henry said:
			
		

> In my experience, males in the southeastern U.S. have raised friendly insults to an art-form (cue Jeff Foxworthy)




Leave it to *you* to say that, you crazy, old bastard!


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## Aeson (Jun 17, 2005)

There are those amungst us in the south that do seem to show their friendship in a less than friendly manor. There is on the other hand a reason for the phrase Southern Hospitality. In my limited travel I have yet to find nicer people than in my home state of Georgia. Don't use Dragoncon as a reference for this. We have lots of Yankees come down for it.


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## Quasqueton (Jun 17, 2005)

> Regardless, if you can't take it from me, take it from Henry. He makes a good point. Insults are a way to communicate for most men without seeming to act "like women."



<points to self> Born, raised, live, and will die in the South.

You insinuated in your original post (in response to mine) and in further posts, that the insults and verbal assaults were common and constant. There's a vast difference between common and constant insults and the occassional playful poke. It's like the difference between having a friend kick you in the junk and a friend say, "I oughta kick you in the junk."

I just don't enjoy constantly and repeatedly swapping insults with friends. I just don't find it entertaining or endearing. I don't need it to communicate with my friends "without seeming to act like women". My manhood is in no way weakened or questioned with a, "Hey buddy, good to see you," rather than a, "You're stupid, we hate you, and you're stupid." <shrug> And in my experience, most men have outgrown that within a couple years of leaving college.

Quasqueton


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## Darth K'Trava (Jun 17, 2005)

Quasqueton said:
			
		

> <points to self> Born, raised, live, and will die in the South.




Not born here but lived here most my life. 




> I just don't enjoy constantly and repeatedly swapping insults with friends. I just don't find it entertaining or endearing. I don't need it to communicate with my friends "without seeming to act like women". My manhood is in no way weakened or questioned with a, "Hey buddy, good to see you," rather than a, "You're stupid, we hate you, and you're stupid." <shrug> And in my experience, most men have outgrown that within a couple years of leaving college.
> 
> Quasqueton





I don't see the need to greet friends with insults.... what happened to being polite like Southerners are known to be? No wonder the "Southern Gentleman" is becoming extinct...


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## LiKral (Jun 17, 2005)

I'm a female gamer (quite fanatical) and I've never had any problems in a game that I haven't seen happen to a guy along the years. I've never been treated badly or harrassed and I've played nine years in 4 different groups. 
I've yet to meet a girl who only plays because of her boyfriend, though I've known at least two guys who only played because of their girlfriends. 
I find geeks very accepting of other geeks in general, whatever the gender - as long as we can all talk about anime and sci-fi for hours, who cares?


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## Quasqueton (Jun 17, 2005)

> I don't see the need to greet friends with insults.... what happened to being polite like Southerners are known to be? No wonder the "Southern Gentleman" is becoming extinct...



Did you read what you quoted? What do you see as impolite or ungentlemanly in what I said?

Quasqueton


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## Darth K'Trava (Jun 17, 2005)

Quasqueton said:
			
		

> Did you read what you quoted? What do you see as impolite or ungentlemanly in what I said?
> 
> Quasqueton





Not with you at all. Just those who think that people should greet others with insults.. But that wasn't aimed at you. Sorry.


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## Quasqueton (Jun 17, 2005)

Thank you. Then we agree. 

Quasqueton


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## Darth K'Trava (Jun 17, 2005)

Quasqueton said:
			
		

> Thank you. Then we agree.
> 
> Quasqueton




You're welcome. And yup.   

My reply was just very badly worded.


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## devilbat (Jun 18, 2005)

Teflon Billy said:



> Aren't you in my Star Thugs game?




And I reply;

Nope, not me.


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