# How do you deal with Hardness 20? (Spoilers for The Infernal Syndrome)



## MerricB (Jun 17, 2012)

Quick question: you're a 8th level party. You have no adamantine weapons, and you come across an animated construct you MUST defeat that has Hardness 20. 

You cannot get adamantine weapons, and you are limited to the Core Rulebook. 

Assume a party of four characters: Cleric, Rogue, Fighter and Wizard. What can you do against this creature? (And you *must* destroy it).

Cheers!


----------



## N'raac (Jun 17, 2012)

What's it made of? Finding something that affects that material is probablty your best bet.


----------



## Varthol (Jun 17, 2012)

*re*



N'raac said:


> What's it made of? Finding something that affects that material is probablty your best bet.




Perhaps your best bet...

On a side note, what scrolls/magic items could u get? Stone to Flesh/Transmute X to Y and spells like that should lower its Hardness i think...


----------



## Alzrius (Jun 17, 2012)

If it has hardness 20, it's made out of adamantine, so I have to ask if this thing is an animated object with hardness, or a construct with damage reduction?

I ask because there is a difference - damage reduction doesn't touch energy damage, whereas hardness can apply to energy damage. Simply put, they should use a combination of spellcasting and energy damage (e.g. flasks of acid, alchemist's fire, etc.) to wear it down. Ideally while tripping or otherwise restricting its movement.


----------



## Kaisoku (Jun 17, 2012)

As Bill Cavalier would put it: "PUNCH YOUR DM IN THE FACE!"



"Limited to the Core rulebook" is upsetting, considering some of the nice combos you could throw at this that would promote teamwork (Butterfly's Sting, for one).

But even in core there's high strength, two-handed weapons, power attack, enlarge person and vital strike.
Give a standard barbarian, ranger (w/ favored enemy) or fighter a greatsword and enlarge person, and watch him power attack and vital strike for an average damage in the mid-40s or higher. Other melee can aid another to make sure he hits.

Summon a bunch of lantern archons. Light rays bypass everything iirc.
Find an energy damage that the construct is weak against (there's rusting grasp, too).

Lastly, "defeat" is a nebulous term. Trick it into harmful environment, a trap, or into a place that lets you do what you need to do unmolested by it (like the bottom of a cliff). Also, tanglefoot bags. Repeat.
No need to play the hitpoint game if not needed.

Official supplemental books give some more interesting options, too. Seige weapons for one.. Nothing makes a statement quite like a cannon.


----------



## MerricB (Jun 18, 2012)

It's an animated construct with *hardness 20*. Not DR.

You can only use the core rulebook because, at the time this encounter was printed, that was the only rules source available.

Lantern Archons: ignore damage reduction, not hardness.

"Tricking" is impossible. It does not leave the room where it is. And you MUST destroy it to complete the adventure.

Adamantine is not weak to any form of energy. Rusting Grasp does not affect it (it isn't a ferrous metal).

The only valid method I've yet seen is to buff the high-strength fighter and let him Power Attack it. Hope he doesn't go down to its 3 attacks/turn plus grab. Once grabbed, he can no longer use a 2-handed sword against it. (You can't even ranged attack it, as you halve the damage first before applying hardness).


----------



## Kaisoku (Jun 18, 2012)

Well, you only said "hardness 20" before, so you are going to get a bunch of generic answers.

What printed material is this? Is the encounter meant to be a Kobayashi Maru test (you are intended to fail)? What's it's listed CR?

CR 11 (epic for APL 8) would have defensive stats of 145hp, good save of 14 and AC 25.
CR 11 is a Stone Golem.

If it's tougher than that, I'd call foul on the writeup. If it has very low hitpoints and saves, and perhaps low damage on each of those three attacks (and no other abilities on top of the grab), then it might be fine.
Slam it as hard as you can, with a Freedom of Movement up and maybe even Shield Other to soak damage. Aid Another to make sure you damage dealer can hit and go to town.

Without more information, I'm afraid I can't say what would work or not, though.

*Edit*
Oh wait, is this something that was made with Animated Object?
If this is the case, then I'd question the validity of the build (as an appropriate encounter for APL8):
- It only starts with one slam attack, and you can buy another one with extra CP, but it's questionable if you can keep buying more above that (why not just give it 10 attacks then?).
- The spell is 6th level, which means 11th level caster created it (Epic level for APL 8 already). This allows a Huge object (1 small creature per level, 8 for Huge, 16 for Gargantuan, so Huge is the limit).
- Huge starts with 4 Construction Points (CP), at CR 7. Adamantine metal requires 6 alone. This brings the CR up to 8 (+1 CR per 2 extra CP), before any other modifiers. Adding Grab and another Slam attack brings this up to CR 9. Start tacking on more stuff and we are looking at CR 10 or higher.

If this is by spell (even with permanency), then a Dispel Magic (or anti-magic), is entirely viable. If this was made with Craft Construct (to prevent dispelling), we are looking at a 35-40kgp creation (~20k cost). This is closer to 13th level+ in NPC wealth (if you consider spending ALL his cash on this one thing alone).

Regardless, I'm not sure why Adamantine weapons aren't an option here either. Seems like things are stacked against the party.


----------



## MerricB (Jun 18, 2012)

The module is The Infernal Syndrome. It's the penultimate encounter (and you *must* defeat it to complete the adventure).

*Liebdaga’s Cage* CR 8
XP 4,800
Advanced animated object (Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 14)
N Medium construct
Init +1; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision; Perception –3

DEFENSE
AC 22, touch 10, flat-footed 21 (+1 Dex, +12 natural, –1 size)
hp 52 (4d10+30)
Fort +1, Ref +2, Will –2
_Defensive Abilities_ hardness 20; Immune construct traits, fire

OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft.; chained
Melee 3 slams +11 (1d8+8 plus 1d6 fire plus grab)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Special Attacks constrict (1d8+8 plus 1d6 fire)

TACTICS
*During Combat* The cage cannot leave this chamber, and remains animated as long as there are visible targets. The cage itself is red hot, and inflicts additional fire damage on each hit. In addition, for every cooling chamber left active, the cage gains 2 points of fast healing—the stats here assume all five cooling chambers are deactivated.
*Morale *The cage fights until destroyed.

STATISTICS
Str 26, Dex 12, Con —, Int —, Wis 5, Cha 5
Base Atk +4; CMB +13 (+17 grab); CMD 24

SPECIAL ABILITIES
Chained (Ex) Liebdaga’s cage can effectively move at a speed of 30
feet as if under the effects of air walk, as it moves by shifting its
position in the room by lengthening or shortening the chains
that hold it in the room. It cannot leave area F37 at all.


----------



## Kaisoku (Jun 18, 2012)

Well, at 52 hitpoints it's going down in a couple rounds, at best (vs avg damage 45+ attacks).

Shield Other + Freedom of Movement from a cleric (to prevent grab/constrict and help counter damage), Enlarge Person to boost damage and level the reach playing field and Protection from Energy from the Wizard, and flanking or Aid Another from a Rogue to boost the Fighter's chance to hit.

Sounds like the standard party should be able to deal with this. A party without a two-handed fighter might want to have at least one adamantine weapon amongst them to deal with golems and other DR situations.

A single well shot Construct Slaying Arrow would practically take this thing down at 50 damage for a failed Fort save (it specifically calls out that it works on constructs, despite immunities). With only a +1 Fort save and a DC of 20, this is likely to happen (needs to roll a 19 or 20 to pass, 90% chance to fail).

There might be more options, but just beating it to death with enough protection (meaning, little preparation required) seems enough.


----------



## MerricB (Jun 18, 2012)

One thing I've been fascinated to see in Pathfinder is how it forces you into having certain characters in the group.

A 2-handed wielding fighter or barbarian
A single class Wizard or Sorcerer
A single class Cleric
Possibly a Rogue

If you don't have the first three, you will NOT be able to deal with the threats in a typical adventure.


----------



## Varthol (Jun 18, 2012)

*re*

+1 Fort? Scroll of Disintigrate


----------



## RithTheAwakener (Jun 18, 2012)

Since it can't leave the room, buff the (a) Ranger and plink away as it's stuck in the room. Deadly aim, pbs, magic weapon, gravity bow maybe a favored enemy bonus, improved critical.. should add up to ~+12 damage. Crit it twice and you win. For good measure, prevent running out of line of sight with Walls of some such, or just throw the meat shields at it. 

Or, a Ranger _and_ a two-handed fighter/barb/ranger should dispatch that creature quite quickly. Then you could have the wizard throwing acid arrows or lightning bolts, since the cage's touch and reflex saves are quite easy to hit.


----------



## MerricB (Jun 18, 2012)

RithTheAwakener said:


> Since it can't leave the room, buff the (a) Ranger and plink away as it's stuck in the room. Deadly aim, pbs, magic weapon, gravity bow maybe a favored enemy bonus, improved critical.. should add up to ~+12 damage.




Gravity Bow is not core rules.

Animated Objects are immune to critical hits.



> Then you could have the wizard throwing acid arrows or lightning bolts, since the cage's touch and reflex saves are quite easy to hit.




Acid arrows are reduced by 20 hardness.
Lightning bolts are reduced by 20 hardness.

Depending on your interpretation of the object rules, you well could be halving all energy/ranged damage first before applying hardness!


----------



## Wycen (Jun 18, 2012)

I was going to suggest Shatter, but after looking at the spell I don't think it'll work.  But how about Chill Metal?  Construct bane weapons?

I'm not sure Paizo adventures "force" you to choose particular character builds, but they surely make their encounters challenging to fight or at least read the stats. Though anecdotal evidence tells me...

Currently our group is in the 2nd Carrion Crown adventure and we just finished off a flesh golem dog.  Our warrior is the two weapon variety with a 10 STR so he was mostly widdling away.  We did have a high STR barbarian but the player apparently is past her "play DnD phase".

Maybe using the scenery is necessary.  Barrels of water or pipes are nearby.  Maybe cave the room in?


----------



## Varthol (Jun 18, 2012)

Do you think you could come across a Mace of Smiting  (auto-kills constructs on a crit)?


----------



## Alzrius (Jun 18, 2012)

MerricB said:


> Adamantine is not weak to any form of energy.




It doesn't need to be "weak" versus any form of energy. You can still use energy damage to hit a creature with hardness 20 (though you'll need to do a lot). From the additional rules:



> *Energy Attacks:* Energy attacks deal half damage to most objects. Divide the damage by 2 before applying the object's hardness. Some energy types might be particularly effective against certain objects, subject to GM discretion. For example, fire might do full damage against parchment, cloth, and other objects that burn easily. Sonic might do full damage against glass and crystal objects.




So you'll need to deal at least 42 points of damage with an energy attack to have it inflict damage (other than fire, to which that particular monster is immune), but for a party of that level, that shouldn't be impossible.



			
				MerricB said:
			
		

> Animated Objects are immune to critical hits.




There's nothing in either the animated object description or the construct creature type that say they're immune to critical hits.


----------



## MerricB (Jun 18, 2012)

Alzrius said:


> There's nothing in either the animated object description or the construct creature type that say they're immune to critical hits.




Check the additional rules:
"Immunities: Objects are immune to nonlethal damage and to critical hits. Even animated objects, which are otherwise considered creatures, have these immunities."


----------



## N'raac (Jun 18, 2012)

MerricB said:


> The module is The Infernal Syndrome. It's the penultimate encounter (and you *must* defeat it to complete the adventure).
> 
> *Liebdaga’s Cage* CR 8
> XP 4,800
> ...




How long do we have to defeat it?  It seems from the "what can you do" nature of the question that you can back off, change spells, re-equip, etc.  Meanwhile, the Construct sits in its room, inactive.  Assuming the cooling chambers have been destroyed, how fast (if at all) does it heal?

What prevents, for example, the best warrior in the group (which could be any character proficient with all martial weapons) buying a Greatsword?  We then return, buff up the warrior (bull's strength +4 STR, Enlarge Person, Prayer, Magic Weapon and any other damage augmenting spells we can lay our hands on - should be plenty at 8th level other than those I've listed).  Buff him up defensively as well so he's hard to hit and hard to hurt (fire resistance for sure).

He attacks, the rest of the team uses Aid Another (either to help him hit or protect him from counterattack).  If he's remotely hurt, we all back out of the room, heal up and go again.  Out of spells?  Well, the cage isn't going anywhere - rest up and try again tomorrow.

Looking at the characters' available spells and abilities for appropriate tactics and synergies is also a good start - as you note, a wide variety of different character combinations are possible, even with only the basic rules.

Summon Monster (or Nature's Ally) IV?  Bring in a creature like a Rhino (powerful charge 4d6 + 12 averages 26 damage before we buff the rhino) or a bison (Gore attack averages 19 points before buffing)?  That's available to a wizard, cleric or druid, or even an 18 CHA bard.  Seems like most parties would have at least one of those four options (especially with only the core rules to choose from).

The ability to plan with unlimited time, buff for only one combat a day and regroup to rest as needed is extraordinarily powerful - and highly appropriate against an epic challenge!

No clue how to deal with it?  Consider Divination spells!


----------



## Kaisoku (Jun 18, 2012)

MerricB said:


> One thing I've been fascinated to see in Pathfinder is how it forces you into having certain characters in the group.




Okay, so was this the real reason for the post?
Considering how generic the first question was, but then your response to answers being regarding a specific situation, it feels a little like you are aiming to soapbox, rather than seek any real help.

If that's not the case, and your post was simply a reaction to the situation, then I apologize. It just felt.. "hinky".. how the thread progressed.




MerricB said:


> If you don't have the first three, you will NOT be able to deal with the threats in a typical adventure.




"Typical" adventure? That monster of a boss is anything but typical.. You can't build it according to the normal rules for Animated Objects (between fire damage, fast healing, etc).

Besides, the rules for animated objects involved Hardness in 3.5e as well.. this is hardly a Pathfinder thing. Is it upsetting that they didn't take it out? Maybe... but this is literally the first time I've seen an Animated Object with Adamantine hardness, so it's quite a rare situation.

Regarding that specific encounter, it's up the DM to adjudicate if energy damage would affect a _specific_ creature/object. Considering it's "super heated" metal, I'd be inclined to allow Cold damage to at least do full damage, if even bypass hardness, simply because the rapid cooling will cause stress on the metal. Voila, fully within core DM adjudication to allow a Cone of Cold to give this thing a bad day.

What 3e D&D (3.0, 3.5 & Pathfinder) does is emphasize how bad it is to _specialize_. If you have a lot of options available (casters having scrolls and wands, fighters having alternative weapons and combat styles, etc), then you can be ready for a wider variety of encounters.

But it's rare that you run into something that needs "Macguffin X" to win, and nothing else works, so your pooched if you don't have it.


Lastly, I'd suggest putting up spoilers for any discussion on the encounter or adventure for the creature, because this went from a general "How do you beat hardness" to "How can I kill this specific creature in a printed encounter".
People might be wanting to play the game you are posting detailed information about without warning.


----------



## Mr.E_Danger (Jun 18, 2012)

N'raac said:


> Summon Monster (or Nature's Ally) IV?  Bring in a creature like a Rhino (powerful charge 4d6 + 12 averages 26 damage before we buff the rhino) or a bison (Gore attack averages 19 points before buffing)?




Depending on your lvl the cleric could easily summon a few monsters in that room.  If you get enough creatures flanking and attacking, you should be able to take that thing down.  Add in the fact that more creatures means that the cage has to attack them, then your squishier friends should be fine.  If the Rogue can get in there and get sneak attack damage; and the fighter power attacks it, you should be able to chip away the hp.

worse comes to worst, you just retreat!


----------



## billd91 (Jun 18, 2012)

Alzrius said:


> From the additional rules:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I would recommend not halving the damage done by energy before applying the hardness. That applies to objects, sure, but animated objects have a creature type of construct. They're not your typical objects. They're hit points are calculated differently as are their saves and a variety of other topics. They should take damage more like a creature than a standard object.

My players have been working their way through the campaign with a gnome witch, a halfling rogue, a halfling ranger (specialized in staff sling attacks), and a dwarf monk. The rogue had a magic adamantine dagger, the ranger a few adamantine bullets (he always buys a mix for just such occasions), and the witch bought a wand of lightning bolts at 10th level casting power. I recall the cage being a bit more of a challenge than the fiend it holds, but only a little bit.

They had much more trouble with Zovarue, in fact.


----------



## blargney the second (Jun 18, 2012)

.Magic missile should do it. Force usually bypasses hardness.


----------



## ShinHakkaider (Jun 18, 2012)

MerricB said:


> The module is The Infernal Syndrome. It's the penultimate encounter (and you *must* defeat it to complete the adventure).
> 
> *Liebdaga’s Cage* CR 8
> XP 4,800
> ...




LOL. I know this encounter and adventure. And once the PC's defeat the cage there's chance that they have to still fight WHAT'S IN THE CAGE. 

LOL. Good times. 

And yes I'm being sarcastic.


----------



## Loren Pechtel (Jun 18, 2012)

1)  Plink.  It's not going to heal, nothing about a time limit was mentioned.  When your spells/buffs run out you can rest and have at it again the next day.

2)  Go to town, get a wall of stone scroll.  Buff the fighter, he engages while drawing it to the limit of it's motion while doing so.  The wizard drops a wall of stone *JUST* behind it.

Note that it's a *SLAM* attack--the cage runs down whoever it's going after.  A properly placed wall of stone will keep it from making any substantial movement, thus substantially cutting it's damage potential.  It can't break down the wall.

Now the fighter whacks at it with a reach weapon with impunity.  So long as his max damage roll is 21 or better the cage dies eventually.


----------



## zag01 (Jun 18, 2012)

MerricB said:


> TACTICS
> *During Combat* The cage cannot leave this chamber, and remains animated as long as there are visible targets.




Improved Invisibility on any character capable of 20+ dmg per hit. Everyone else stays out of the room/chamber.

If you're not 'visible' the cage shouldn't be animated, only an object, presumably with the same hardness. Beat it to death without fear of counter attacks.


----------



## blargney the second (Jun 18, 2012)

Plane shift should do the trick too, I would assume.


----------



## MerricB (Jun 19, 2012)

Kaisoku said:


> "Typical" adventure? That monster of a boss is anything but typical.. You can't build it according to the normal rules for Animated Objects (between fire damage, fast healing, etc).




Actually, although this monster is quite unusual, there are enough DR creatures out there with DR types you probably aren't prepared for that high-damage fighters are *generally* preferable to many-attack low-damage fighters.


----------



## RithTheAwakener (Jun 19, 2012)

By the Core _book_ and Bestiary rules, animated objects are not immune to critical hits. This makes sense, as they turn from being an object, to being a construct which can be critically hit. 

For some reason the Pathfinder OGC has additional animated object rules, which offers a redundancy statement of "immune to non-lethal damage" (which is already in construct rules) and "immune to critical hits", which is not in the construct description. There is quite the disconnect there between a construct like a golem, which is an object manufactured and then magically animated, and an object, which is manufactured and can be magically animated.

If it is really intended to have that extra rule redundancy from PF OGC, then it should also have a Break DC based on object rules, which should be from 23-26ish DC. So a new tactic would be: Bull Strength a burly party member, everyone else Aids Another. Roll Strength check vs Break DC for glory.


----------



## MerricB (Jun 19, 2012)

blargney the second said:


> Plane shift should do the trick too, I would assume.




Probably not so much for this specific encounter, and it's a little outside the suggested level range, but it *would* work.

Cheers!


----------



## MerricB (Jun 19, 2012)

N'raac said:


> How long do we have to defeat it?




As long as you like - sort of. The adventure wants to imply that you're under a time limit (like a nuclear reactor melting down), but it undermines that by allowing you as long as you like. Not that my players knew that.

Our play of the adventure actually had the best warrior of the group, enlarged, bull's strength and hacking away with it with a 2-handed weapon, whilst I fudged a lot of rolls that meant he would have been grabbed. _Freedom of Movement_ would have worked - but it's a fairly new party to Pathfinder/3E.



> Summon Monster (or Nature's Ally) IV?  Bring in a creature like a Rhino (powerful charge 4d6 + 12 averages 26 damage before we buff the rhino) or a bison (Gore attack averages 19 points before buffing)?  That's available to a wizard, cleric or druid, or even an 18 CHA bard.  Seems like most parties would have at least one of those four options (especially with only the core rules to choose from).




That's an option: the cleric of the group could do so.

Cheers!


----------



## MerricB (Jun 19, 2012)

RithTheAwakener said:


> By the Core _book_ and Bestiary rules, animated objects are not immune to critical hits. This makes sense, as they turn from being an object, to being a construct which can be critically hit.
> 
> For some reason the Pathfinder OGC has additional animated object rules, which offers a redundancy statement of "immune to non-lethal damage" (which is already in construct rules) and "immune to critical hits", which is not in the construct description.




Actually, it's in the core book. Find the description of hardness there, and go down a paragraph or two. By core rules, animated objects (though not constructs in general) are immune to critical hits.


----------



## MerricB (Jun 19, 2012)

Loren Pechtel said:


> 2)  Go to town, get a wall of stone scroll.  Buff the fighter, he engages while drawing it to the limit of it's motion while doing so.  The wizard drops a wall of stone *JUST* behind it.
> 
> Note that it's a *SLAM* attack--the cage runs down whoever it's going after.  A properly placed wall of stone will keep it from making any substantial movement, thus substantially cutting it's damage potential.  It can't break down the wall.
> 
> Now the fighter whacks at it with a reach weapon with impunity.  So long as his max damage roll is 21 or better the cage dies eventually.




This is a wonderful idea! Note that it needs to be an enlarged fighter + reach weapon (otherwise its reach of 10' means they hit each other).


----------



## N'raac (Jun 19, 2012)

MerricB said:


> but it's a fairly new party to Pathfinder/3E.




How new are they to the concept that not every threat can be beaten by standing and hitting it?  It seems like the biggest risk is that the PC's rush in to attack, things go wrong, and they just keep hacking rather than backing off to come up with a better plan.


----------



## RithTheAwakener (Jun 19, 2012)

MerricB said:


> Actually, it's in the core book. Find the description of hardness there, and go down a paragraph or two. By core rules, animated objects (though not constructs in general) are immune to critical hits.




Ah my mistake, Animate Object did not lead me there ><. Very odd distinction though; it seems like that technicality could be very easy to abuse. A wizard with a bag full of 100 small adamantine permanently animated bullets, he opens the bag at the start of a combat and wins.


----------



## MerricB (Jun 19, 2012)

blargney the second said:


> .Magic missile should do it. Force usually bypasses hardness.




It does? (Insubstantial, yes, but hardness?)

One of the interesting changes from 3.5E to Pathfinder is that the energy damage vs Hardness rules change.

D&D 3.5E: acid and sonic deal full damage (less hardness), electricity & fire deal half, cold deals quarter... to most objects.
PF: all energy types deal half, with the DM allowing exceptions.


----------



## MerricB (Jun 19, 2012)

RithTheAwakener said:


> Ah my mistake, Animate Object did not lead me there ><. Very odd distinction though; it seems like that technicality could be very easy to abuse. A wizard with a bag full of 100 small adamantine permanently animated bullets, he opens the bag at the start of a combat and wins.




Hmm. Looking at the 3.5E SRD, it gets more interesting.

In 3.5E, constructs are immune to critical hits, and the SRD text is "Even animated objects, which are otherwise considered creatures, have these immunities because they are constructs."

In PF, constructs are no longer immune to critical hits, but the revision team changed the text to "Even animated objects, which are otherwise considered creatures, have these immunities."

Very odd.


----------



## MerricB (Jun 19, 2012)

N'raac said:


> How new are they to the concept that not every threat can be beaten by standing and hitting it?  It seems like the biggest risk is that the PC's rush in to attack, things go wrong, and they just keep hacking rather than backing off to come up with a better plan.




In this case, the best plan is to hit it HARDER! 

(Mind you, 'things going wrong' probably involve grab attacks...)


----------



## MerricB (Jun 19, 2012)

zag01 said:


> Improved Invisibility on any character capable of 20+ dmg per hit. Everyone else stays out of the room/chamber.
> 
> If you're not 'visible' the cage shouldn't be animated, only an object, presumably with the same hardness. Beat it to death without fear of counter attacks.




Ooh! Great solution! (Requires a bit of knowledge of the set-up, but greater invisibility does work against a lot of threats).


----------



## MerricB (Jun 19, 2012)

Mr.E_Danger said:


> If the Rogue can get in there and get sneak attack damage




Sadly, no sneak attack damage allowed by rules for animated objects.


----------



## RithTheAwakener (Jun 19, 2012)

Aha! A simple Dispel Magic. 

From paizo.com...
 "Not all constructs are built with the Craft Construct feat. Spells like animate objects allow a caster to temporarily animate an existing object. These constructs are in many ways weaker than manufactured constructs, as they are susceptible to dispelling and antimagic.

A caster can use the animate objects spell to instantly create a temporary construct. A permanency spell cast upon an animated object makes the construct permanent; however, it can still be dispelled or suppressed by antimagic. Craft Construct creates permanent animated objects not susceptible to dispelling and antimagic."


----------



## MerricB (Jun 19, 2012)

RithTheAwakener said:


> Aha! A simple Dispel Magic.




Heh. I really like that idea!

Mind you, it seems that a Caster Level is lacking for the object in question... (and, indeed, have you ever seen an encounter with an animated object sans caster which has one?)

Cheers!


----------



## RithTheAwakener (Jun 19, 2012)

I've only encountered an animated object once. I ran Curse of the Crimson Throne, which has an animated object in one of the modules. It didn't have a stat sheet for it (oddly enough it made you build your own object), but it did say who made it, and it had his CL in the maker's stat block a few pages away.


----------



## billd91 (Jun 19, 2012)

MerricB said:


> Actually, it's in the core book. Find the description of hardness there, and go down a paragraph or two. By core rules, animated objects (though not constructs in general) are immune to critical hits.




That's pretty much the same exact text from 3.5. I wonder if it was missed in Pathfinder's crit expansion.


----------



## MerricB (Jun 19, 2012)

billd91 said:


> That's pretty much the same exact text from 3.5. I wonder if it was missed in Pathfinder's crit expansion.




It has been edited to remove the "because they're constructs" line, so it's something they knew they were doing... well, sort of.


----------



## N'raac (Jun 19, 2012)

MerricB said:


> In this case, the best plan is to hit it HARDER!




Absolutely - but you can take a lot of different steps to be able to hit it harder with the right preparation, and you can plan for characters whose expertise isn't hitting harder to better contribute in support roles.



MerricB said:


> (Mind you, 'things going wrong' probably involve grab attacks...)




Which may well change the initial encounter from "destroy the foe" to "extract teammates, retreat, regroup and plan".  That would be the point, at least in our group, where the whole Cleric spell list gets a once over ("oh, look - freedom of movement will prevent the Grab!") for helpful spells.

An old 3rd Ed war story.  Our party had developed some decent tactical synergies that worked well for us into the mid levels (probably about 7 or 8, coincidentally).  We then went up against a scenario with a lot of incorporeal opponents.  We were getting our heads handed to us.

We were able to back out to a safer location and regroup, whereupon we started reviewing options.  First point of recognition, the reverse of your group's, was that we need to hit BETTER, not HARDER.  I think the Cleric's entire spell list changed.  The Sorcerer used up much of his L1 firepower on Mage Armor.  A number of other, small and large, tactical changes went through the discussion process.

We then sliced through the opposition using the new battle plans.  Very satisfying - in fact, much more satisfying than having the same old tactics keep working would have been, since we could see the improvement our planning resulted in.


----------



## jefgorbach (Jun 19, 2012)

AFB but presuming the Dispel Magic is ineffective because the Creator either exceeds your maximum effective point or Crafted it, would it not be possible/wise to Transmute the base material to something with less than Hardness 20?, like Metal->Stone, Stone-> Flesh; THEN commence whacking??  If all else fails, Limited Wish(substance to sponge cake).


----------



## rkarnes (Jun 20, 2012)

Just a quick question; was the adventure designed with the specific requirement that this cage should die? If there's something in it, can't they pick the lock?


----------



## MerricB (Jun 20, 2012)

rkarnes said:


> Just a quick question; was the adventure designed with the specific requirement that this cage should die? If there's something in it, can't they pick the lock?




Yes, it's a specific requirement that the cage be destroyed. There is no lock (it's a magical construct).


----------



## coyote6 (Jun 20, 2012)

Looking through the adventure, loot from earlier on includes a _wand of invisibility_ and a _wand of spiritual weapon_. Combine the two -- an invisible wizard and an invisible cleric enter the room, the wizard readies to turn the cleric invisible as soon as he appears, and the (buffed with every attack boost available) cleric attacks with a spiritual weapon until the wand gives out. Preferably, the wizard has _see invisibility_ active, so the cleric can move after every use of the wand, but the wizard can still see him to follow and ready again.

The cage has no Int score, so it can't ready a charge, and there will never be a PC visible during the cage's turn. It just gets beat down for 35* attacks 1d8+1 attacks. _Spiritual weapon_ doesn't deal energy damage, so it's not subject to the hardness or half damage those have to deal with.

A quick mental calculation gives me an estimate of on average 13 of those attacks hitting (50% chance for the 1st attack, 25% for the iterative -- +6 base attack, +4 or +5 Wis, vs a flatfooted AC of 21); that's 71 pts of damage. The cage has 52.

*(each weapon gets 1 attack the first round, and 2 attacks for the remaining two rounds of the duration; 5 attacks per usage, times the 7 charges in the wand.)

Note that you don't actually need specifically a wizard or cleric; you just need someone who can use the wands. For the _wand of invisibility_, you don't want to depend on UMD -- too much chance of missing a roll and leaving the other guy open to attack. But it doesn't have to be a wizard per se, and the other wand could be used via UMD, if needed.

Also, the cage has a -1 Perception, so _greater invisibility_, Stealth, and some mobility would be an awesome combo.


----------



## MerricB (Jun 20, 2012)

coyote6 said:


> _Spiritual weapon_ doesn't deal energy damage, so it's not subject to the hardness or half damage those have to deal with.




What gives you that idea? Hardness applies to all damage.

"When an object is damaged, subtract its hardness from the damage."


----------



## GSHamster (Jun 20, 2012)

I would exploit the leash. Have a tank engage it, have the strikers take out a cooling chamber, then retreat. Repeat until all cooling chambers are dead. Then whittle it down from range.


----------



## Salthorae (Jun 20, 2012)

still like what [MENTION=95517]Varthol[/MENTION] said... the thing has a Fort save of +1, buy a couple of scrolls of disintegrate and be done with it. 

Avg damage on a minimum level (CL9) disintegrate is (22d6) 77 pts. If you say that Hardness applies (which I'm not sure), you're still at 38.5 avg damage. 2 of those scrolls and the thing is gone. 

Minimum save DC on a scroll of Disintegrate is 19 (10+6+3 (min Int of 16)) ... which the cage will fail 85% of the time. If the caster is higher Int, then you're only increasing your odds to 95% max (assuming your group plays with "20 is auto success", not all do).

Cost per scroll 1650gp for basically an auto win.


----------



## rkarnes (Jun 20, 2012)

This seems like a blatant design flaw, even though there are a number of work-around tricks. I think that instead of designing and running an adventure that requires system mastery from your players, this should be contributed to an oversight in the design process and a prime example for the DM caveat.


----------



## Varthol (Jun 21, 2012)

I don't think disintigrate dmg should be halved or have hardness applied to it, its dmg is... well... not that physical so I hardly think that hardness at least can apply there.

As for spiritual weapon (read it some posts before) it did ignore hardness and deal full dmg to objects in 3.5 because that was the general rule in 3.5 about force damage (even though it can't be used against inanimate objects ). Since that rule is not a part of the PF system spiritual weapon is also halved and subject to hardness i guess (unless the DM says otherwise ofc).

I guess that dealing with hardness is all about argumentation 
You could say "come on Mr.DM, Spiritual Weapon punches through DR/Adamantine like paper, but not through hardness?" or something like that. An example i think in the core rulebook is that piercing dmg is ineffective against stone BUT wiht the EXCEPTION of a pick. So try to argue your exception.


----------



## Crothian (Jun 21, 2012)

MerricB said:


> One thing I've been fascinated to see in Pathfinder is how it forces you into having certain characters in the group.
> 
> A 2-handed wielding fighter or barbarian
> A single class Wizard or Sorcerer
> ...




We don't have any of those three and so far the group is doing just fine.


----------



## James Jacobs (Jun 22, 2012)

MerricB said:


> Check the additional rules:
> "Immunities: Objects are immune to nonlethal damage and to critical hits. Even animated objects, which are otherwise considered creatures, have these immunities."




That's in fact an error. One that's been frustratingly hard to expunge from the rules.

If animated objects were intended to be immune to critical hits, that information really REALLY needs to be on the monster's actual stat block page, and not squirreled away in the core rulebook on a section about objects taking damage. I'll try again to have that rule errataed in the next printing of the Core Rules... (and in fact I just talked to Jason Bulmahn about this as he wandered by my office while I was writing this post and he confirms that should go into the errata for the Core Rulebook).

Being the one who wrote the bulk of that adventure (and the final encounter in question), I can confirm that the intent is that the animated cage should be treated as a normal construct, and as such things like sneak attacks and critical hits should work on it. Furthermore... it's a CR 8 creature. According to Table 1–1 in the Bestiary, a CR 8 creature should have 100 hit points. The cage has half that amount. The reason I made it adamantine is to address the fact that without hardness 20, it truly is a glass cannon.

The way to destroy it is to hit it as hard as you can, basically. Sneak attack works REALLY well here, as do critical hits, but so do high-damage spells. The fact that it's a lone monster in the encounter means that the PCs should be able to gang up on it pretty well—it's a tough fight, but against a party of four 8th or 9th level characters... hardly an unstoppable one.

(And as for the comment that Pathfinder adventures are designed to require a fighter/cleric/wizard/rogue... that's correct. We assume that a typical party has a typical/"classical" spread of classes between these four iconic roles, and as such, we build our adventures to that assumption and try to make sure that there's places in every adventure where those four roles have a moment to shine. That said... I've seen plenty of parties not follow this precise balance of power and still do fine.)


----------



## MerricB (Jun 22, 2012)

James Jacobs said:


> That's in fact an error. One that's been frustratingly hard to expunge from the rules.




See also riding dog for Monster Summoning I. 

However, getting rid of *any* use of hardness from creatures would be a very good idea. 



> (And as for the comment that Pathfinder adventures are designed to require a fighter/cleric/wizard/rogue... that's correct. We assume that a typical party has a typical/"classical" spread of classes between these four iconic roles, and as such, we build our adventures to that assumption and try to make sure that there's places in every adventure where those four roles have a moment to shine. That said... I've seen plenty of parties not follow this precise balance of power and still do fine.)




It's more a comment on the 3E rules that Pathfinder inherited (although I tend to run up against it more when running Paizo adventures, that could also be due to running more Paizo adventures for 3E/PF than anything else) and is due to the set up of key spells only being available to the cleric and wizard. Restoration, I'm looking at you!

(A Celtic-themed setting, with druids instead of clerics, is absolutely destroyed by undead: energy drain and ability drain...)

When I set up this particular game - which is Core Book only - I made a list of roles to be covered as follows:

Warrior: Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger
Caster: Sorcerer, Wizard
Healer: Cleric
Trickster: Rogue, Bard, Monk

Extra classes help with that. (and such now exist).


----------



## Salthorae (Jun 22, 2012)

I'd have to chime in that I played a Paladin in the Second Darkness AP and he was an awesome healer, so you should put him in both lists. We had a Cleric to shoulder most of the responsibility so we hardly ever touched my Lay on Hands, but that is a powerful ability in Pathfinder. 

Every time I cured hit points, I also Removed Curses, Diseases, Neutralized Poisons, and removed the Shaken condition... and I could do that 13 times a day!

Glad to know that the Animated Creatures and Immune to Crit/Sneak Attack is an errata. Thanks for chiming in James.


----------



## MerricB (Jun 22, 2012)

Salthorae said:


> I'd have to chime in that I played a Paladin in the Second Darkness AP and he was an awesome healer, so you should put him in both lists. We had a Cleric to shoulder most of the responsibility so we hardly ever touched my Lay on Hands, but that is a powerful ability in Pathfinder.
> 
> Every time I cured hit points, I also Removed Curses, Diseases, Neutralized Poisons, and removed the Shaken condition... and I could do that 13 times a day!




I energy drain the wizard to 1st level and ability drain the rogue to 3 Con, what is your paladin doing?

General healing is easy in PF (wands of cure light wounds are amazing). However, ability drain and energy drain are very hard to remove.



> Glad to know that the Animated Creatures and Immune to Crit/Sneak Attack is an errata. Thanks for chiming in James.




It isn't errata. It's an error that hasn't yet been corrected.


----------



## Salthorae (Jun 22, 2012)

MerricB said:


> I energy drain the wizard to 1st level and ability drain the rogue to 3 Con, what is your paladin doing?
> 
> General healing is easy in PF (wands of cure light wounds are amazing). However, ability drain and energy drain are very hard to remove.
> 
> It isn't errata. It's an error that hasn't yet been corrected.




I'm casting Restoration and Lesser Restoration to cure them up just like the cleric would...

And then smiting your energy draining, ability damaging undead into smitherines.

And they are indeed errata as the primary definition is of errors in general, secondary meaning is the published list of corrections.


----------



## MerricB (Jun 22, 2012)

Salthorae said:


> I'm casting Restoration and Lesser Restoration to cure them up just like the cleric would...




Lesser Restoration doesn't work on ability drain.

A paladin needs to be Level 13 to cast Restoration.


----------



## EUBanana (Jun 22, 2012)

Given he mentions four mercies he's probably level 12-15...


----------



## N'raac (Jun 22, 2012)

Salthorae said:


> I'm casting Restoration and Lesser Restoration to cure them up just like the cleric would...




While certainly true that the Paladin has access to these spells, the earliest he will access Lesser Restoration is L4 (L3 for the cleric so no biggie) and he'll be L13 before he sees Restoration (versus Cleric L7).  He's also gaining the spell slots at a lower pace.

Of course, you can always buy wands.  21,000 gp for Restoration doesn't compare well to 750 for CLW, but you also have the other Paladin advantages.  Having a Paladin rather than a Cleric means you spend more to have Restoration access, but the paladin adds melee power, especially against evil creatures (like, say, level draining undead).

To the bigger question, I think D&D, and Pathfinder by extension, are games of teamwork, and there is an expectation of an array of abilities.  I think doing without a cleric is probably more viable in Pathfinder, and certainly no less.

If you're missing some core abilities, it will certainly change things.  However, I don't see writing AP's on the expectation there will be no arcane casters, or no warrior types, will create issues for far more groups than assuming those bases will be covered in some manner.  I don't think I've ever used a module without reading through it and assessing which challenges are rendered underpowered due to group composition, and which might need some modification to avoid being overpowered.

In this specific example, I think a pretty wide array of viable options have been suggested.  I also think the ability of the party to back out and plan greatly enhances their power - you aren't stuck with what the casters selected for today, nor the weaponry the warriors typically use, so you can come back tomorrow - and the next day, if need be - with a group better customized to address this specific threat.  

Any martial character can pick up a Great Sword, have their damage capacity augmented with buff spells we typically ignore because melee damage isn't the team's typical forte, be aided by other team members whose usual combat role is different, etc.  Not every challenge is, or should be, a perfect fit with the party's areas of greatest focus.


----------



## MerricB (Jun 22, 2012)

EUBanana said:


> Given he mentions four mercies he's probably level 12-15...




He has then completely missed the problem. It's really nice being a level 14 paladin - unfortunately, by then the Adventure Path is over. (Council of Thieves tops out at 13th level).


----------



## Salthorae (Jun 22, 2012)

MerricB said:


> He has then completely missed the problem. It's really nice being a level 14 paladin - unfortunately, by then the Adventure Path is over. (Council of Thieves tops out at 13th level).




Yes 12th level Paladin with the Extra Mercy feat. Second Darkness tops out at 15th which, as I mentioned, is the AP where that character was run. 

I don't feel like I missed the problem, but you are entitled to you opinion. I posted and commented on your initial issue of Hardness 20 for level 8 characters. 

You then made more general post about 3.x & Pathfinder roles and which classes should go into them. I replied to that particular post about Paladin's being valid choices for the healer AND melee role, especially given some of the Archtype options in APG, (which I do realize you've said isn't allowed in this particular game you're running) based on my experience in the last Pathfinder game. 

Because your campaign theme is more Celtic and there are Druids, but no Clerics you've said that presents a problem with energy and ability damage/drain for the party. Regardless of what level a Paladin acquires Restoration, he still gets it and the Druid doesn't. Which to me makes him a better option against the energy/ability drain than a Druid, and really the only option for that kind of healing in your game it would seem, based on the information you've given us.  

Sorry for trying to chime in and have a helpful discussion to broaden your Party Roles!


----------



## billd91 (Jun 22, 2012)

MerricB said:


> (A Celtic-themed setting, with druids instead of clerics, is absolutely destroyed by undead: energy drain and ability drain...)




Why would you limit divine characters to just druids in a Celtic-themed game? The Celts were an iron-forging people. Smith priests would be a fantastic addition, and appropriately flavorful.

And even if you did limit to druids, why wouldn't you simply add Restoration to their spell lists? And if you didn't do that, why would you still use level and stat draining undead? 

As GM, you aren't forced to screw the PCs. If you're limiting choices the PCs have for a theme, you sould limit your own as well or compensate for them.


----------

