# The Campaign Guide is here!



## Morrus (Jul 2, 2011)

Grab it from the articles area.

WARNING - GMs and DMs ONLY!  THE CAMPAIGN GUIDE CONTAINS MAJOR SPOILERS.  IN FACT THE WHOLE THING IS SPOILERS - IT DETAILS THE ENTIRE PLOT!


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## Falkus (Jul 2, 2011)

I just finished reading through it. Very, very interesting. Not what I expected; but definitely intriguing. Hopefully; I'll be able to start this sometime after GenCon.


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## ridingsloth (Jul 2, 2011)

After reading through this, I'm even more excited than I was before. I appreciate how much thought went into balancing the mystery and the reveal of the conspiracy. Can't wait for the first adventure!


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## Colmarr (Jul 3, 2011)

Falkus said:


> Not what I expected; but definitely intriguing.




I agree. The Plot isn't what I expected, but it's going to make for one hell of a campaign!

Oh, for a DMs only thread where we didn't have to worry about spoilers. It's maddening to not be able to openly discuss this


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## Morrus (Jul 3, 2011)

Colmarr said:


> Oh, for a DMs only thread where we didn't have to worry about spoilers. It's maddening to not be able to openly discuss this




You possess the ability to start threads.


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## Riastlin (Jul 3, 2011)

Morrus said:


> You possess the ability to start threads.




I'm guessing he's referring more to his knowledge of the first adventure, but just a hunch.


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## Morrus (Jul 3, 2011)

Riastlin said:


> I'm guessing he's referring more to his knowledge of the first adventure, but just a hunch.




Ah, I see.  Well, [MENTION=59182]Colmarr[/MENTION], I think it's close enough to release that you can discuss what you've seen, as long as you mark the thread as containing spoilers and don't post the actual manuscript!


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## Falkus (Jul 4, 2011)

Just reread and noticed the release dates for the campaign adventures. It actually works out pretty well for me, given that the leveling rate from my last campaign worked out to be somewhat slower than the release schedule here; though I think I'll try to keep at least one adventure ahead of the release schedule when I start running it.

All in all; still looking forward to it; and I'm glad I bought it.


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## Mentat55 (Jul 5, 2011)

The _Campaign Guide_ was a fascinating read.  I hope I can convince my current group to let me run _Zeitgeist_, I think it would be a refreshing change of pace to our usual hack'n'slash, take no prisoners (I am not complaining, I like our kick down the door style) approach to D&D.


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## gideonpepys (Jul 6, 2011)

My players are statting up characters right now.  The campaign guide is extremely evocative, and has inspired much more creative responses than usual.  

Take, for example, the following (submitted when a player was asked to provide a background for his deep faen (drow/halfling) assassin):

‘ A little mouse with a hungry mouth and so many friends to meet’
echoes out of the top of the soot covered alley as a wind-up clockwork
mouse comes out of the darkness, and strange music notes eminate from
within.



Urú Scáthaigh Ciotóg resides in the Needles, in a cluttered toyshop
filled with half completed toys, mannequins and other oddities that
fill every nook and cranny. The two story shop has a strange sigh, and
the darkness seems to thicken around the doorway. The surroundings
ooze menace. Despite the grim exterior, the sound of a child’s
laughter can be heard from within, as well as the monotone of clockwork 
in motion.

So he tinkers, he alters and fixes and adds to things, and he prods
and dissects and asks questions that should not be asked, whether
people are willing or not.

He is a Technologist and seems a little off to people, mainly from the
close connection he has with the Dreaming.


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## Dog Moon (Jul 6, 2011)

Falkus said:


> Just reread and noticed the release dates for the campaign adventures. It actually works out pretty well for me, given that the leveling rate from my last campaign worked out to be somewhat slower than the release schedule here; though I think I'll try to keep at least one adventure ahead of the release schedule when I start running it.
> 
> All in all; still looking forward to it; and I'm glad I bought it.




I saw the release dates and was surprised.  I don't know how these adventures compare to Paizo AP adventures, but my group goes through about one adventure per two weeks.  So about 12 weeks for one AP.  So assuming about twice the number of adventures, 24 weeks.  Meaning with a supposed end date of June 2014 our group shouldn't begin to even start the AP until about January of 2014.  Even if I assume twice as long as Paizo AP, then that's 48 weeks, starting at about July of 2013.

As interested as I was in this, I don't think I'll be worrying about getting this AP for a long time.


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## Morrus (Jul 6, 2011)

Dog Moon said:


> I saw the release dates and was surprised. I don't know how these adventures compare to Paizo AP adventures, but my group goes through about one adventure per two weeks. So about 12 weeks for one AP. So assuming about twice the number of adventures, 24 weeks. Meaning with a supposed end date of June 2014 our group shouldn't begin to even start the AP until about January of 2014. Even if I assume twice as long as Paizo AP, then that's 48 weeks, starting at about July of 2013.
> 
> As interested as I was in this, I don't think I'll be worrying about getting this AP for a long time.




We don't have the money Paizo has, unfortunately. We can only afford to pay artists and writers and the like at a certain rate.

If I win the lottery next week, I promise to release the entire thing within 5 minutes (or as fast as Ryan can write). But yes, I am painfully aware of the unfortunate delay-based loophole inherent in a subscription product. We just have to hope not too many people do it, or we won't be around for long. It's an unavoidable but unfortunate problem with the business model, but there isn't a viable alterative model which will enable us to provide over a thousand pages of full-colour intricately crafted adventure path made up of tens of thousands of hours of writing, illustrating, editing, and layout. Hopefully this model won't bite us on the ass too much, but only you can decide what it's worth to you. 

Although - 12 weeks for one AP? I'm playing through WotBS right now, and we're approaching the two-year mark. I'd suggest that you may be something of an outlier. 12 weeks? Really? For the whole thing? That only just got us through the first adventure!  Honestly, if you go through an adventure in two weeks, you really are best waiting.  That's a phenomenal play rate outside my experience.  How many hours do you play each week?  We design for 4 hours a week or so.


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## Dog Moon (Jul 6, 2011)

Morrus said:


> We don't have the money Paizo has, unfortunately. We can only afford to pay artists and writers and the like at a certain rate.
> 
> If I win the lottery next week, I promise to release the entire thing within 5 minutes (or as fast as Ryan can write). But yes, I am painfully aware of the unfortunate delay-based loophole inherent in a subscription product. We just have to hope not too many people do it, or we won't be around for long. It's an unavoidable but unfortunate problem with the business model, but there isn't a viable alterative model which will enable us to provide over a thousand pages of full-colour intricately crafted adventure path made up of tens of thousands of hours of writing, illustrating, editing, and layout. Hopefully this model won't bite us on the ass too much, but only you can decide what it's worth to you.
> 
> Although - 12 weeks for one AP? I'm playing through WotBS right now, and we're approaching the two-year mark. I'd suggest that you may be something of an outlier. 12 weeks? Really? For the whole thing? That only just got us through the first adventure!  Honestly, if you go through an adventure in two weeks, you really are best waiting.  That's a phenomenal play rate outside my experience.  How many hours do you play each week?  We design for 4 hours a week or so.




We play weekly for about 12-14 hours, minus maybe about an hour for dinner.  Usually start around 2pm and depending on where we are in the adventure, usually stop around 2am - 4am.

Ah, sadly we no longer do the start at 11am on saturday, game to 5am, sleep till about 11am and them resume until 9-10pm on sunday when we finally force ourselves to go home to be ready for monday mornings.  Those were the days.  

But I guess now that I know there's a reason for delaying the adventures [I was like what kind of planning is that?], it makes sense.  I'm sure I'll do something to pitch in at some point, but it will probably be a little farther down the line.  I do hope everything goes good for you and hope that not every group is as fast as ours.


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## benfromidaho (Jul 6, 2011)

I was also a little concerned about my players moving too fast compared to the release schedule, but after checking out this guide I'm not worried at all. I've been playing with my group about six months (known most for years), and we're finally getting a good groove going for non-combat roleplaying. I think it'll be exciting to see how we fill some of the breaks. Otherwise, I'm not too worried! As soon as Ultimate Combat (we're using Pathfinder) is released, character creation will begin!!!

Also, what is the intended party size for Zeitgeist?


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## Morrus (Jul 6, 2011)

Dog Moon said:


> We play weekly for about 12-14 hours,




_Holy crap!_

I'm sorry, we simply can't keep up with that rate of play. You're literally playing faster than we can write. If it's any comfort, I envy you - I get 3-4 hours per week, max!  You're playing at 4-5 times the rate we do!


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## RangerWickett (Jul 6, 2011)

benfromidaho said:


> Also, what is the intended party size for Zeitgeist?




For 4e, it's 5 PCs. I believe Pathfinder also assumes 5 PCs; I'll ask Thurston (who has been doing the rules work for the PF version).


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## benfromidaho (Jul 6, 2011)

[MENTION=63]RangerWickett[/MENTION] I certainly hope you're correct, 'cause that's wicked awesome!  I'm losing one player from my regular group because of school in the Fall, which will bring us down to five, and I was not excited about either adding more baddies to make up for it or telling one of them that he couldn't play.


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## Dog Moon (Jul 6, 2011)

Morrus said:


> _Holy crap!_
> 
> I'm sorry, we simply can't keep up with that rate of play. You're literally playing faster than we can write. If it's any comfort, I envy you - I get 3-4 hours per week, max!  You're playing at 4-5 times the rate we do!




Ouch.  Although it certainly helps that two of the others in my group live in the same house and one lives like a mile away [The last one lives a decent drive away and makes it randomly due to work schedule, but we technically have enough without him if he can't make it] which makes it pretty easy for us to get together and to game pretty much as late as we want.  "Ugh, I'm so tired I can't keep my eyes open."

"That's fine.  You should be able to walk the twenty feet to your bedroom with your eyes closed by now."


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## Rugult (Jul 6, 2011)

RangerWickett said:


> For 4e, it's 5 PCs. I believe Pathfinder also assumes 5 PCs; I'll ask Thurston (who has been doing the rules work for the PF version).




For the PF version we're assuming 4-5 PCs as per standard adventures.  PF XP breaks are strange in that it assumes a party of 4-5 base and then modifies challenges for groups of 6+ and 3 or less.

That being said, I would suggest sticking with 5 PCs as some of the encounters might be dicey (blame Ryan's insane ideas of PC torture).  4 PCs can work well, but if you are GMing it, I would suggest offering the PCs a bit of mercy once in a while.


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## benfromidaho (Jul 6, 2011)

Thanks [MENTION=53273]Rugult[/MENTION] it's awesome to get that sort of insight on GMing things ahead of time.  It'd be no fun to introduce this whole new awesome world and then end it all with an early TPK.  This might be getting a little specific in terms of topics for the thread, but since I didn't see any mention of it in the Campaign Guide, is there a specific need to keep track of XP in Zeitgeist?  I've been toying with just leveling according to required level for the adventure, and not keeping track of specific XP.  I know it works well in campaigns that don't involve a lot of level draining monsters or XP consuming abilities.  Any advice?


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## Pentius (Jul 6, 2011)

My desire to read the campaign guide is bested only by my desire to play the AP without having it all be spoiled.  The player's guide was fantastic, it actually makes me want to write AP material.  Sadly, I don't have a face-to-face group, and haven't seen anyone looking for online players around here(for Zeitgest, specifically, anyway).


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## Riastlin (Jul 6, 2011)

Aye, definitely jealous of Dog Moon here too.  12 hours is like 6 weeks for us as we play every other week for about 4 hours.  At that rate, it shouldn't be a problem keeping up.  Of course, I also don't have a game ready to start as I am already running one and playing in another which pretty much eats up all my free time.

In any event though, congrats on having such a great and stable group!  Wish I could get away with that.


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## Rugult (Jul 6, 2011)

benfromidaho said:


> This might be getting a little specific in terms of topics for the thread, but since I didn't see any mention of it in the Campaign Guide, is there a specific need to keep track of XP in Zeitgeist?  I've been toying with just leveling according to required level for the adventure, and not keeping track of specific XP.  I know it works well in campaigns that don't involve a lot of level draining monsters or XP consuming abilities.  Any advice?




We went the route of having leveling points included in the adventures.  Depending on the adventure, these points will occur once or twice during the module.  GMs can feel free to hand out XP based on their own interpretation of the adventure, but the mechanical balancing of 4e Vs. PF (20 lvls vs. 30 lvls) along with the number of encounters and tweaking appropriate challenge was way too many balls in the air for us to handle individual XP rewards.

All this being said, the first adventure is entirely 1st level for PF, with the PCs leveling to 2nd just in time for the second adventure.  In adventures where the PCs level more than once there will points in the adventure that tells the GM it's appropriate to level the PCs.


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## Falkus (Jul 6, 2011)

Rugult said:


> All this being said, the first adventure is entirely 1st level for PF, with the PCs leveling to 2nd just in time for the second adventure.  In adventures where the PCs level more than once there will points in the adventure that tells the GM it's appropriate to level the PCs.




That I appreciate; it's going to make it much easier for me. I've finally decided to go down the path of not recording EXP and just telling the players when to level up.


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## Riastlin (Jul 6, 2011)

Aye, I'm not familiar enough with Pathfinder to know whether you need to track XP (for spells and item creation, etc.) but in 4ed there's really no need to track it except to give the players a sense of "progress" on their characters.


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## Dog Moon (Jul 6, 2011)

Riastlin said:


> Aye, I'm not familiar enough with Pathfinder to know whether you need to track XP (for spells and item creation, etc.) but in 4ed there's really no need to track it except to give the players a sense of "progress" on their characters.




As far as I've noticed, Paizo removed all of the things that would cost you XP so the only thing you would really need to keep track of it for would be to level.  Of course I frequently just level people when I feel like I want them to level, so I don't even need the XP charts at all!


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## benfromidaho (Jul 7, 2011)

Woohoo! No need to track XP points! Seriously, every post I read about this Adventure Path is getting me more and more excited. I can't wait to get my hands on Adventure One!!!


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## Rugult (Jul 7, 2011)

benfromidaho said:


> Woohoo! No need to track XP points! Seriously, every post I read about this Adventure Path is getting me more and more excited. I can't wait to get my hands on Adventure One!!!




I'm with you on this one!  

As I said, we'll be fairly straightforward in saying; "Level the PCs at this point" if it's needed during an adventure.  Otherwise it will be assumed they level at the end of the adventure.


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