# Pope on last legs.



## Del (Apr 2, 2005)

The man has led a heck of a life. 

He fought communism, tried to deal with evil people within the church on his watch, traveled to nearly every country on the planet, survived an assassination attempt, and basically tried to do good in his days. Heck, he's even been the subject of a Tom Clancy novel.

I'm protestant, but I don't feel partisan. I wish him well, especially in the next few days which may be his last. God be with Wojtyla, also known as Pope John Paul the 2nd.

Del Esau
www.esprawl.com


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## Jdvn1 (Apr 2, 2005)

He supposedly suffered from cardiovascular collapse and septic shock, but is still alive.  Likely for not much longer, but everyone has their time.

It's not like the world can ask for more from him.


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## Mark Chance (Apr 2, 2005)

Pope John Paul II has died.


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## Morrus (Apr 2, 2005)

Yep, it's on the BBC website:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4399715.stm


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## mojo1701 (Apr 2, 2005)

Sad day. Sad day, indeed. Being a fellow Pole, it's terrible.


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## Jdvn1 (Apr 2, 2005)

Yep, officially at 9:47 Rome time.


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## mojo1701 (Apr 2, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> Yep, officially at 9:47 Rome time.




Is Rome time on par with GMT?


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## Crothian (Apr 3, 2005)

sad, sad day.....


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## Dark Jezter (Apr 3, 2005)

I'm a mormon, but I can say that the world is a lesser place with Pope John Paul II gone.  He had an amazing life, and did a lot of good in his time on Earth.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Apr 3, 2005)

mojo1701 said:
			
		

> Is Rome time on par with GMT?



 Nope, I believe they're +2 GMT or so...


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## Kanegrundar (Apr 3, 2005)

Speaking as a Methodist here, Pope John Paul II was an amazing man.  The world has become a darker place with his passing.  It will be a gargantuan task to fill those shoes.

May he rest in eternal peace.

Kane


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## Jdvn1 (Apr 3, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Nope, I believe they're +2 GMT or so...



I think that's right.


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## Sarellion (Apr 3, 2005)

+1 GMT. At least it´s that in germany


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## Torm (Apr 3, 2005)

I admired Pope John Paul II for a lot of things, and feel he lived a long life of accomplishment. At the same time, I am hopeful that a fresh perspective from a new Pontiff may bring Catholics and the world in general an even brighter future. I only wish that I thought, from looking at the likely candidates for his replacement, that his replacement will be as relatively young as Wojtyla was at his installation - most of more probable candidates are almost as old as John Paul II, and will probably pass, themselves, in less than a decade. :\


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## Jdvn1 (Apr 3, 2005)

Well, I think future papacies will be colored by this recent one.  JP2 was hugely influential and he appointed all but three of the Cardinals that chose the next Pope.


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## Zappo (Apr 3, 2005)

Italy is +1 GMT.


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## Keeper of Secrets (Apr 3, 2005)

Sad, indeed.  But good that he is not suffering, that it was not a horrible and protracted illness.

As a Catholic who is too young to remember the election of this Pope it should be interesting to see the new selection process.  The media will love it, as they can cover the election of an American President every four years.  A Pope is much more rare.


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## Staffan (Apr 3, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> I only wish that I thought, from looking at the likely candidates for his replacement, that his replacement will be as relatively young as Wojtyla was at his installation - most of more probable candidates are almost as old as John Paul II, and will probably pass, themselves, in less than a decade. :\



That's really considered more normal. John Paul II's reign of 20-something years is the third longest in the history of the Church.


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## Klaus (Apr 3, 2005)

If there is anyone on Earth who was sure to go to the great Upstairs, it is Carol Josef Wojtyla. Godspeed and thanks for everything.

Yesterday the News here in Brazil aired the Pope's lighter moments, like him swinging his cane around, walking around in sneakers and stuff. Good man.


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## Darth K'Trava (Apr 3, 2005)

May Pope John Paul II reside and celebrate with the Holiest of Fathers. He has been a strong leader of a large Christian denomination, leading it with the love and caring that can be matched by none other.


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## BOZ (Apr 4, 2005)

mojo1701 said:
			
		

> Sad day. Sad day, indeed. Being a fellow Pole, it's terrible.




at first i thought you said "Being a fellow Pope"


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## Jdvn1 (Apr 4, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> at first i thought you said "Being a fellow Pope"



Yeah, that's what I thought too.    Had to read it a couple times to make sure.


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## Darth K'Trava (Apr 5, 2005)

Me too. I usually read quickly and tend to screw stuff like that on the first read-through.


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## Nisarg (Apr 6, 2005)

_[Edited - No, no, no.  Take the political rant elsewhere.  The rules are clear and simple; either follow them or leave.

- Morrus]_


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## mojo1701 (Apr 6, 2005)

I was just about to comment on what Nisgard said, but I'm not gonna start. For one thing, I don't want this thread to be closed.

Also, Nisgard, no politics or religion.

That, and I disagree with a lot of what he's saying.

_Edit: Thanks a lot, Morrus! You're my kinda guy!_


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## BOZ (Apr 6, 2005)

good call mojo.


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## mojo1701 (Apr 6, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> good call mojo.




Thanks. Common sense-oriented rants are one thing, but vilifying (almost vindictive, even) ravings are another.


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## Nisarg (Apr 6, 2005)

mojo1701 said:
			
		

> I was just about to comment on what Nisgard said, but I'm not gonna start. For one thing, I don't want this thread to be closed.
> 
> Also, Nisgard, no politics or religion.
> 
> ...




Um.. you do see the irony here, right? the POPE is automatically about both politics AND religion. You can't publically idolize him, and then hide behind the "no politics/religion" rule here at enworld to bash those who were less then thrilled with his pontificate.

Either this thread as a whole shouldn't exist on here, or those who have very real and honest issues with the pope should get to have a say without being censored. Its one thing to just spew profanities, but if this is a real eulogy thread, and not just a "blank cheque thread" for the catholic propagandists, then i should be allowed to point out some of the man's flaws.

Nisarg


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## Morrus (Apr 6, 2005)

Nisarg said:
			
		

> Um.. you do see the irony here, right? the POPE is automatically about both politics AND religion. You can't publically idolize him, and then hide behind the "no politics/religion" rule here at enworld to bash those who were less then thrilled with his pontificate.
> 
> Either this thread as a whole shouldn't exist on here, or those who have very real and honest issues with the pope should get to have a say without being censored. Its one thing to just spew profanities, but if this is a real eulogy thread, and not just a "blank cheque thread" for the catholic propagandists, then i should be allowed to point out some of the man's flaws.




Some small leeway was allowed in this thread, yes. You overstepped those bounds by a mile.  I've rarely seen a political or religious rant of that magnitude on EN World.

I even let you get away with it by merely removing the rant, rather than removing you. You then immediately followed it up by breaking yet another of the clear rules - disputes with moderators stay in emails, not in public. Enjoy a month's holiday from EN World - I have no time or interest in double checking all your posts.


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## Tobold Hornblower (Apr 6, 2005)

From the SRD Resurrection Spell


> In addition, the subject’s soul must be free and willing to return. If the subject’s soul is not willing to return, the spell does not work; therefore, subjects who want to return receive no saving throw.




Hmmmmm. Now if one of the Cardinals could cast Resurrection on John Paul II, I wonder if he'd want to return?


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## Darth K'Trava (Apr 6, 2005)

Tobold Hornblower said:
			
		

> From the SRD Resurrection Spell
> 
> 
> Hmmmmm. Now if one of the Cardinals could cast Resurrection on John Paul II, I wonder if he'd want to return?





I doubt as he's no doubt singing hosannas with his Father and Son.   

May the good Holy Father rest in peace and greet us in the afterlife. 




I hope that didn't cross any forbidden boundaries...... if so, I apologize in advance.


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## Darth K'Trava (Apr 6, 2005)

Morrus said:
			
		

> Some small leeway was allowed in this thread, yes. You overstepped those bounds by a mile.  I've rarely seen a political or religious rant of that magnitude on EN World.





I'd say that there's more leeway on this board as opposed to another one I post to regularly which would've shut this whole thing down. I like the "greater" freedoms this board has and hope it stays that way.


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## Kanegrundar (Apr 6, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> I'd say that there's more leeway on this board as opposed to another one I post to regularly which would've shut this whole thing down. I like the "greater" freedoms this board has and hope it stays that way.




I'm not one for "me to" posts, but I agree with Darth K'Trava entirely.  That's one of the (many) reasons I stick to ENWorld over any other RPG site.  (Like RPG.net...  )

Kane


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## Torm (Apr 6, 2005)

Tobold Hornblower said:
			
		

> Hmmmmm. Now if one of the Cardinals could cast Resurrection on John Paul II, I wonder if he'd want to return?



Disclaimer: Not a Catholic, or even what would _traditionally_ be considered a Christian.
I would tend to think, based on his statements regarding measures to prolong life in his final days, both about himself and Mrs. Schiavo, that his answer would be, "What is G-d's Will for me?" I doubt it would be that, though, or that a Cardinal would even try - the Resurrection holds a special place in that faith for one particular Individual.  


			
				Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> May the good Holy Father rest in peace and greet us in the afterlife.



Disclaimer: Not a Moderator.  
But I wouldn't think anyone would object to well wishes for him, _whatever_ they believe comes (or doesn't come) next.


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## Darth K'Trava (Apr 6, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> Disclaimer: Not a Catholic, or even what would _traditionally_ be considered a Christian.




Not a Catholic either. I go to a Wesleyan church although not a member. Hate politics, church or otherwise.....   




> I would tend to think, based on his statements regarding measures to prolong life in his final days, both about himself and Mrs. Schiavo, that his answer would be, "What is G-d's Will for me?" I doubt it would be that, though, or that a Cardinal would even try - the Resurrection holds a special place in that faith for one particular Individual.




I'd agree with that. There's only one True Resurrection I believe in.   



> Disclaimer: Not a Moderator.
> But I wouldn't think anyone would object to well wishes for him, _whatever_ they believe comes (or doesn't come) next.




But you play one on TV?   

Was covering all bases after whatever politcal brewhaha got smashed down earlier.... Considering that one can't talk about stuff like this on the WOTC boards.


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## Staffan (Apr 6, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> I'd agree with that. There's only one True Resurrection I believe in.



Aren't there two mentioned in the Bible? Lazarus and Jesus?

Though maybe the first was just a Raise Dead.


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## Darth K'Trava (Apr 6, 2005)

Staffan said:
			
		

> Aren't there two mentioned in the Bible? Lazarus and Jesus?
> 
> Though maybe the first was just a Raise Dead.




I'd put the first as a Raise Dead. 

The second was God's prophecy in action.


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## Torm (Apr 6, 2005)

Staffan said:
			
		

> Aren't there two mentioned in the Bible? Lazarus and Jesus?



This is probably getting way off from the course we should be on, but since it is purely informational, I guess it is okay?

As Darth K'Trava said, Lazarus was more of a Raise Dead. But there IS (depending on sect and interpretation of scripture) a scriptural reference that can be taken to imply that John the Baptist was the return of the prophet Elijah.


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## BOZ (Apr 6, 2005)

i guess if someone less reactionary than nisarg complains about it, then the thread will be closed.  

until then, carry on citizen!


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## Droid101 (Apr 6, 2005)

OMG Nisarg got PWNDD!!1


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## Darth K'Trava (Apr 6, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> This is probably getting way off from the course we should be on, but since it is purely informational, I guess it is okay?
> 
> As Darth K'Trava said, Lazarus was more of a Raise Dead. But there IS (depending on sect and interpretation of scripture) a scriptural reference that can be taken to imply that John the Baptist was the return of the prophet Elijah.




Now _that_ I haven't heard.....


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## Torm (Apr 6, 2005)

KJV Malachi 4:5 - Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD

KJV Matthew 17:12 - But I say unto you, That Elias [Elijah] is come already, and they knew him not....
KJV Matthew 17:13 - Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.


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## Turanil (Apr 6, 2005)

Oh! Oh! There is plenty of *RELIGIOUS SUBJECTS* here!!!


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## Darth K'Trava (Apr 6, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> KJV Malachi 4:5 - Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD
> 
> KJV Matthew 17:12 - But I say unto you, That Elias [Elijah] is come already, and they knew him not....
> KJV Matthew 17:13 - Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.





Thanks, Torm.


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## Del (Apr 7, 2005)

*A lighter note*

First, thanks for not closing the thread, this was my way of saying goodbye as I can't make it to the Basilica.

On a more humourous note: if you take the amount of time the Holy Father has been lying in state, then add the light's heat lamp effect he's under ...

Not good man, better get a movin with the funeral.


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## BOZ (Apr 7, 2005)

eeewww

i just hope they don't preserve him like Lenin style.  i've heard that they have mummified popes in the past, too.


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## Del (Apr 7, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> eeewww
> 
> i just hope they don't preserve him like Lenin style. i've heard that they have mummified popes in the past, too.




The will states he will be buried in a grotto at St. Peter's Basilica in a special coffin.


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## Jdvn1 (Apr 7, 2005)

Yeah, I understood it was under the Basilica.  Like, a basement or something.


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## BOZ (Apr 7, 2005)

that's actually pretty traditional.  used to be that was done all the time back in the day.  in fact, burials in churches or church yards (read: sacred ground) used to be more common that public graveyards, once upon a time.


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## Mystery Man (Apr 7, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> eeewww
> 
> i just hope they don't preserve him like Lenin style.  i've heard that they have mummified popes in the past, too.






He's not embalmed, only prepared for viewing. He will be laid to rest with a white silk veil on his face, a rosary in his hands and his body clad in liturgical vestments and a white mitre, the tall headdress worn by popes, his body will be placed inside three coffins — wood, zinc and wood — a design meant to slow decomposition.


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## der_kluge (Apr 7, 2005)

Shouldn't this thread title be changed.  I mean, "Pope on last legs" is kind of misleading at this point.


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## Jesus_marley (Apr 7, 2005)

Not really if you consider that SOMEONE has to carry him downstairs.... and they have legs... at least I assume they do... all the bearers might be in wheelchairs... then it would have to be "Pope on last wheels"..... that would be cool...


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## Darth K'Trava (Apr 7, 2005)

Del said:
			
		

> First, thanks for not closing the thread, this was my way of saying goodbye as I can't make it to the Basilica.
> 
> On a more humourous note: if you take the amount of time the Holy Father has been lying in state, then add the light's heat lamp effect he's under ...
> 
> Not good man, better get a movin with the funeral.




Gee... thanks for the image........


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## reveal (Apr 7, 2005)

According to this article http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/4/6/163022.shtml#boom he has not been embalmed.


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## Darth K'Trava (Apr 8, 2005)

Hmmm...... Saint John Paul? That'd be neat for a man who's spent his whole life serving God and loving others.


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## Torm (Apr 8, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> Hmmm...... Saint John Paul? That'd be neat for a man who's spent his whole life serving God and loving others.



Yep. Except they should go with Saint Wojtyla. Too many Johns, Pauls, Georges, and Ringos already.


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## reveal (Apr 8, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> Yep. Except they should go with Saint Wojtyla. Too many Johns, Pauls, Georges, and Ringos already.




Wasn't St Paul the cute one?


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## Darth K'Trava (Apr 8, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> Yep. Except they should go with Saint Wojtyla. Too many Johns, Pauls, Georges, and Ringos already.




Didn't have a source to spell his real name correctly.


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## Tarrasque Wrangler (Apr 8, 2005)

*Little help?*

I heard for several days that the line of mourners in the Vatican could be seen from space.  Anyone have a link to an actual image of this?  I've tried Google Image Search, all the usual suspects, and I couldn't find anything.


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## tarchon (Apr 8, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> Yep. Except they should go with Saint Wojtyla. Too many Johns, Pauls, Georges, and Ringos already.




If he can put an end to the media Pope-Mania, he's got the first miracle at least.

I hadn't thought about it before, but "John Paul" in Latin is "Little John."


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## Del (Apr 8, 2005)

Tarrasque Wrangler said:
			
		

> I heard for several days that the line of mourners in the Vatican could be seen from space. Anyone have a link to an actual image of this? I've tried Google Image Search, all the usual suspects, and I couldn't find anything.




I heard that too. I'd love to see the sat photos.


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## Algolei (Apr 8, 2005)

Define "space."

People keep claiming things can be seen from space, but do they even bother checking?  I think not!  They just say it to make it sound cool.

I mean, can't spy satellites read a newspaper from space?  Then I should HOPE the line-up can be seen from space!


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## Mark Chance (Apr 8, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> i've heard that they have mummified popes in the past, too.




The Catholic Church does not mummify people, not even popes.


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## Torm (Apr 8, 2005)

...._wonders what the stats would be on the Mummy Pope_....


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## Klaus (Apr 8, 2005)

The line could NOT be seen from space (anymore than a regular street in Rome could). It started in two places, on both sides of the River Tibre, did a little snaking around in sidestreets of the Vatican, before finally entering the Via de Conciliazione. From there it funnelled into St. Peter's Square, following a zig-zag pattern before entering the Basilica.

A couple of brazilian TV reporters braved the line and registered all EIGHTEEN hours of it.


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## jokamachi (Apr 9, 2005)

It is likely that we will see JPII canonized in our lifetime.


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## Darth K'Trava (Apr 9, 2005)

It could be quite possible....

I wonder what was the quickest time it took to canonize someone into a saint after the requisite miracles....


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## WayneLigon (Apr 9, 2005)

There is normally a mandatory wait of five years after death before the canonization process can begin. 

PJPII waived that in the case of Mother Theresa, and it has been done in the past; Anthony of Padua is on record as the fastest from burial to sainthood; he was canonized 352 days after his death and is considered one of the best loved of all saints (one sounce also says he was the greatest Christian thaumaturge ever, meaning he produced a large amount of observable objective miracles, but nothing else mentions this though one of his titles in the Church is 'Performer of Miracles'.) 

The quickest in modern history has been the founder of Opus Dei, who was canonized 27 years after his death.


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## I'm A Banana (Apr 9, 2005)

......I don't think so.

Canonization isn't just a pat on the back for a morally good person. No, it requires you to have SUPER POWERS and FLY THROUGH SPACE. 

The Pope was a great dude, but a saint? I don't see him


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## Jdvn1 (Apr 9, 2005)

Actually, being a Saint has certain prereq's.  You have to have witnessed 3 miracles in your life, on top of everything else.


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## Krieg (Apr 9, 2005)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> No, it requires you to have SUPER POWERS and FLY THROUGH SPACE.












> _John Paul reborn as ‘Incredible Popeman’
> Comic book turns late pontiff into Satan-fighting superhero
> 
> Reuters
> ...


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## Andrew D. Gable (Apr 9, 2005)

Dude, I know that comic book is meant as a tribute and celebration of his life and all, but to me that's borderline blasphemous.  It's just...so..._wrong_.  Superpope?


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## Krieg (Apr 9, 2005)

Del said:
			
		

> I heard that too. I'd love to see the sat photos.


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## Krieg (Apr 9, 2005)

Andrew D. Gable said:
			
		

> Superpope?




The comic is _The Incredible Popeman!!_

The first photo was of him imitating Superman getting ready to fly, it appeared in a magazine and was titled Superpope.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Apr 9, 2005)

I don't think SuperPope is anything new, though...I have vague memories of a comic with the Pope running around fighting crime with submachine guns...

EDIT: Oh, and nearly anything can be seen from space these days.


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## Torm (Apr 9, 2005)

Andrew D. Gable said:
			
		

> Dude, I know that comic book is meant as a tribute and celebration of his life and all, but to me that's borderline blasphemous.  It's just...so..._wrong_.  Superpope?



That is, of course, your call to make for yourself. Personally, I don't see it as bad, as long as they actually mean it in tribute and not mockery.

If _that_ bugs you, though, consider: A wondrous child, an only begotten son sent to Earth by his heavenly father, demonstrating amazing abilities as a youth and even more amazing powers as an adult - including the ability to transform one material into another. Firmly on the side of the righteous. Risen from the dead.

Who am I talking about? Superman.

But I doubt the creators of Superman meant anything blasphemous.


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## Krieg (Apr 10, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> But I doubt the creators of Superman meant anything blasphemous.




Yeah but Superman's first name isn't Jesus either.


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## tarchon (Apr 10, 2005)

Krieg said:
			
		

> Yeah but Superman's first name isn't Jesus either.




No, but his last name is "El".


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## Torm (Apr 10, 2005)

tarchon said:
			
		

> No, but his last name is "El".



Ha! Point AND match!


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## BOZ (Apr 11, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> Actually, being a Saint has certain prereq's.  You have to have witnessed 3 miracles in your life, on top of everything else.




witnessed?  i thought it was performed?


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## Krieg (Apr 11, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> witnessed?  i thought it was performed?




Currently (since 1983) one miracle must be performed for Beautification (unless the individual is a martyr) and a second is required for Cannonization. The miracles typically are posthumous, in that they are performed on the behest of an individual who has prayed for them to the Saint in question.


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## tarchon (Apr 11, 2005)

Krieg said:
			
		

> Currently (since 1983) one miracle must be performed for Beautification (unless the individual is a martyr) and a second is required for Cannonization. The miracles typically are posthumous, in that they are performed on the behest of an individual who has prayed for them to the Saint in question.



Hunter S. Thompson is being cannonized, and I don't think he even has one miracle yet.


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## Darth K'Trava (Apr 11, 2005)

tarchon said:
			
		

> Hunter S. Thompson is being cannonized, and I don't think he even has one miracle yet.





Probably because he, like Elvis, has a growing religion about him....


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## Krieg (Apr 11, 2005)

tarchon said:
			
		

> Hunter S. Thompson is being cannonized, and I don't think he even has one miracle yet.




Bill Clinton's endorsement is hardly indicitive of the opinion of the Catholic Church's Congregation for the Cause of Saints.


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## tarchon (Apr 11, 2005)

tarchon said:
			
		

> Hunter S. Thompson is being cannonized, and I don't think he even has one miracle yet.



http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/04/05/entertainment/main685787.shtml, he posted explicatively.


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## Darth K'Trava (Apr 11, 2005)

Krieg said:
			
		

> Bill Clinton's endorsement is hardly indicitive of the opinion of the Catholic Church's Congregation for the Cause of Saints.





Considering the only thing he "endorsed" was Monica Lewensky....


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## Jdvn1 (Apr 12, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> witnessed?  i thought it was performed?



Heh.  Somehow, I'd doubt that anyone would take credit for a miracle.  Well, seriously, anyway.

Superpope, the alter ego, is a different story.


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## Darth K'Trava (Apr 12, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> Heh.  Somehow, I'd doubt that anyone would take credit for a miracle.  Well, seriously, anyway.
> 
> Superpope, the alter ego, is a different story.




Since they're usually performed long after the person's death, I seriously doubt they can "take credit".....


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## Jdvn1 (Apr 12, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> Since they're usually performed long after the person's death, I seriously doubt they can "take credit".....



... Nono, to be a saint, you have to witness the miracle.  Like, you have to be there, alive, when it happens.  The necessary miracle can't occur after the person's death.  So, if someone tried to take credit, it'd happen at the time of the miracle.


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## tarchon (Apr 12, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> ... Nono, to be a saint, you have to witness the miracle.  Like, you have to be there, alive, when it happens.  The necessary miracle can't occur after the person's death.  So, if someone tried to take credit, it'd happen at the time of the miracle.



It's not anything to do with witnessing or performing the miracle, it's intercession to get the miracle done. The Catholic Encyclopedia is out there for your googling pleasure, and it's quite adequate for explaining the canonical process (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02364b.htm if googling is too much work).


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## Jdvn1 (Apr 12, 2005)

Thanks for the link!  I forgot about that site -- it's been a while since I've taken a Theology class.


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## Torm (Apr 12, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> Heh.  Somehow, I'd doubt that anyone would take credit for a miracle.  Well, seriously, anyway.



Not just that, but technically, I believe miracles are supposed to only be _performed_ by the Trinity. The _only_ thing a mortal can do is bear witness.


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## Jdvn1 (Apr 12, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> Not just that, but technically, I believe miracles are supposed to only be _performed_ by the Trinity. The _only_ thing a mortal can do is bear witness.



Well, yes, exactly.  Although tarchon does clarify that it's intercession for a miracle, actually.


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