# Animation: American and Japanese



## Skade (Sep 27, 2003)

In the Teen Titans thread Sulimo said: 



			
				Sulimo said:
			
		

> God-awful...pandering to the anime crowd. At least going by the first 2 episodes.




I've noticed several remarks like this over the last few months, regarding anime as something less worthy than it's American equivalent.    

Honest question, with no intention of attacking this post, why would anime influence be considered "pandering"?  

Good animation is good regardless of whether it is Japanese or American.  The show does use certain anime techniques (super deformed bodies, the tear and gasp images etc.) but it is defintly an American cartoon.  For that matter American cartoons have their particular techniques (swirling stars, springy legs, anthropormorphic animals), does that mean that if a Japanese company made an anime using these elements it would be pandering to the American crowd?

For that matter, are shows like Cyborg 009, and Kikaider, who look more like the old Max Fleisher cartoons that helped influence early anime, considered too retro?  or too American?`


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## Tarrasque Wrangler (Sep 27, 2003)

I would say that anime is its own style now, almost a genre unto its own.  That "pandering" line implies that it's still some kind of obscure niche, when it's probably the dominant mode of popular animation nowadays.  Saying Teen Titans is "pandering to the anime crowd" is like saying that Star Wars is "pandering to the scifi crowd".


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## ergeheilalt (Sep 28, 2003)

I for one, am starting to get tired of all the anime. Sure; its good - even great. There is just so much of it. I was disappointed in the anime aspect of Teen Titans; I was hoping for something similar to Batman or Superman. 

I think the "pandering" comment was not so much about playing to a niche crowd; but rather, pandering to what is hip. I mean, two years ago, we had only a handful of anime shows. Cartoon Netword was basically Bugs, Hanna Barbara, etc; with Toonamie being the "niche" anime time slot (2 hours). Today anime is hot stuff and being carried by stores that only had Disney cartoons on the shelves. Teen Titans,  IMO, would have been better realized if it were done in a "comic book-esque" fashion.

Erge


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## s/LaSH (Sep 28, 2003)

It's interesting to try to define anime style, isn't it? Put Ghost In The Shell next to Pokemon, and then tell me what style is getting tired...

Now, as for Americans doing anime-style stuff: If they do it well, and it looks cool, then go ahead, I don't care. If they do it poorly, then it sucks and I don't watch it. I confess knowing virtually nothing about the background thereof, but a show titled 'Totally Spies' seems vaguely anime-esque to me yet isn't really all that good (although I have heard that one episode had Simon Templeman in it). That's something I'd avoid - it's a pander, as opposed to an actual adaptation of the 'style'. Which I think I mentioned is like saying 'the style of books', because it's rather general.

One thing I hate about anime, however, is the comedic things - giant sweatdrops, super-deformed faces, that kinda thing. This doesn't infect all anime, fortunately - or it's understated; DragonBall Z may have dramatic sweat, but it's in individual droplets rather than a bucket-sized swelling. I confess I felt that humanity was doomed when a recent Transformers series actually gave Predacons giant sweatdrops. We can all agree that the people involved should be shot, right?

Anyway, I don't care if it's Japanese or American - Japanese cartoons can be more mature and have cooler stand-alone images, while American cartoons can have a higher budget and animate more accurately and fluidly. That's the rough assessment I've made of the two styles. Now when they come together, you get really freaky cool stuff.


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## jdavis (Sep 28, 2003)

Teen Titans is meant for a younger audience than Batman and Superman (which also had a lot of anime influence). For me the thing I like about anime is that is more realistic and not always slapstick oriented. That has nothing to do with drawing style or what's hip it is just more interesting to me. There is just not that many action oriented American cartoons around and when they do make one it's like the old GI Joe cartoons where everybody had three guns but nobody ever got shot. I wish they made more shows like the original Jonny Quest show. It's not like I don't like comedy stuff but lets face it they don't make stuff like the original Bugs Bunny cartoons anymore either, there is way too much Political Correctness now I guess.

Another thing is that there is just so much anime out there, there is just not one anime style.


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## jdavis (Sep 28, 2003)

double post, oops


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## 2d6 (Sep 28, 2003)

s/LaSH said:
			
		

> I confess I felt that humanity was doomed when a recent Transformers series actually gave Predacons giant sweatdrops. We can all agree that the people involved should be shot, right?




If you shoot the people involved, you loose all the satisfaction gained from dragging them out in the street for a good ol-fashioned caning.


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## RyanL (Sep 28, 2003)

I think the implication is not that anime is less worthy, but rather that there is a growing contingent of American youth that reject any animation that they perceive as "too American" because of thier assumption that the Japanese style is superior by default.

In other words, you've got to make it look pseudo-Japanese in order to get kids to like it.  I'm not sure I agree (Disney is still the best animation house in the world, IMO), but I think that's what they're getting at.

-Ryan


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## Pants (Sep 28, 2003)

jdavis said:
			
		

> Teen Titans is meant for a younger audience than Batman and Superman (which also had a lot of anime influence). For me the thing I like about anime is that is more realistic and not always slapstick oriented. That has nothing to do with drawing style or what's hip it is just more interesting to me. There is just not that many action oriented American cartoons around and when they do make one it's like the old GI Joe cartoons where everybody had three guns but nobody ever got shot. I wish they made more shows like the original Jonny Quest show. It's not like I don't like comedy stuff but lets face it they don't make stuff like the original Bugs Bunny cartoons anymore either, there is way too much Political Correctness now I guess.
> 
> Another thing is that there is just so much anime out there, there is just not one anime style.



Agreed.
After watching Aqua Teen Hunger Force, Brak Show, and SeaLab, I'm convinced that American cartoons should stick to comedy, while Japanese cartoons can do the whole action thing.


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## jdavis (Sep 29, 2003)

Pants said:
			
		

> Agreed.
> After watching Aqua Teen Hunger Force, Brak Show, and SeaLab, I'm convinced that American cartoons should stick to comedy, while Japanese cartoons can do the whole action thing.



The _Fargate_ episode of Aqua Teens cracked me up_._ After I posted Saturday night I caught toonheads on Cartoon Network, they showed the Rabbit Season/Duck Season trilogy, man they really don't make them like they used too, funny stuff. 

By the way some of the best anime is stuff they will never show on Cartoon Network (although they suprised me with Fooly Cooly).


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## Nightfall (Sep 29, 2003)

jd,

Just you wait. I'm sure more is coming from AS/Cartoon Network.


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## Villano (Oct 1, 2003)

Pants said:
			
		

> Agreed.
> After watching Aqua Teen Hunger Force, Brak Show, and SeaLab, I'm convinced that American cartoons should stick to comedy, while Japanese cartoons can do the whole action thing.




I disagree.  I think animation, like all other forms of media, eventually comes down to writing.  Batman did action and drama better than some anime.  And some anime are much funnier than US cartoons.

The problem I have with TT is that the anime-style stuff seems to be used hap hazardly.  For me, it's okay when someone gets a cartoony expression when shocked, scared, etc., but things like in the Mad Mod episode when they were looking in the cartoon holes and Cyborg's huge head came out of one seemed too out there.  

Japanese cartoons also make this, imo at least, style mistake.  Rorouni Kenshin falls into this when it goes from (literal) life or death situations to someone's head growing 20 times in size.  When things like this happen in more comedy oriented shows, like Tenchi Muyo, it isn't so bad (and even then it isn't done that often).  

To use comic terms, it would be like George Perez going super-deformed.  If you buy a comic by George Perez, you don't expect that and it clashes with his other art.


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## LightPhoenix (Oct 1, 2003)

I would guess what the author meant to convey, though perhaps did so poorly, was that a lot of animated stuff is in the anime style because, as someone said before, it's become hip.  He felt the show sucked, and part of it he feels was due to the anime style being used for no apparent reason.

Of course, you have to keep in mind that most people's experience with Japanese animation is crap like DBZ, Sailor Moon, and Pokemon.  And while it may not mean such in Japan, here everything that has a Japanese influence is called anime.  I've seen anime be applied to The Matrix even, and that's not even animated!

And while some people here may be able to quote differences amongst Japanese animation, and how some is really anime and some isn't, it's really the public definition that matters.  Ask a random person what anime is, and the response will be Japanese cartoons nine times out of ten (if it isn't a "huh?").  

It's the same with Emo (music).  I'm sure a lot of people have heard of Emo, which like Anime has become more prevalent in recent years.  Now I could talk (a bit) about the differences in Emo - Emocore, Emo, and the like.  But most people lump all of it together.  On a similar note, I read an article which lumped Genesis, Pink Floyd, Dream Theater, and Tori Amos all into the category of Progressive Rock.  And needless to say they're all vastly different styles.  Or, you could talk about the defition of RPGs, and how most people wouldn't know the difference between D&D, GURPS, Storyteller, and all the rest.  All they see is the term - be it Anime, Emo, Prog Rock, or RPG.

So, I guess the moral is try and realize that while you may be an expert on the subject, the majority of the people aren't, don't care to be, and really don't care to make the distinctions that someone who does care will.  It's a functional definition that works for the majority of the people, and will be used as such.


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## Umbran (Oct 1, 2003)

Tarrasque Wrangler said:
			
		

> Saying Teen Titans is "pandering to the anime crowd" is like saying that Star Wars is "pandering to the scifi crowd".




And, many would say that the new Star Wars movies do just that.  Rather than make a really good movie, they make mediocre one that includes a few specific elements that a particular crowd will want to see.  The Yoda lightsaber duel being a good example.  How many folks have said, "I don't care what the movie is like, I wanna see Yoda kick butt!"

There is, IME, a largish group of people who will watch anime-style stuff first because it is anime, and second because of content.  The style has become hip enough to be a selling point on it's own.  In that sense, you can be pandering to the audience that finds that particular stuff hip.  

Personally, I'd prefer to see new and different animation instead of more following the same conventions.  But that's just me.


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## Skade (Oct 1, 2003)

s/LaSH said:
			
		

> It's interesting to try to define anime style, isn't it? Put Ghost In The Shell next to Pokemon, and then tell me what style is getting tired...




This is one of the reasons I disagree that anime is a genre.  Though the book definition of genre is "a category of artistic composition, as in music or literature, marked by a distinctive style, form, or content", it is more often more specific than this.  Since anime (and I will include manga in this) covers so many different types of stories it's really many genres.  No one would lump Friends, Star Trek, Alias, and Shogun in the same genre in the US.  Now take Tenchi Muyo, Ghost in the Shell, Read or Die and Bandit King Jing and you have as wide a variety, but for non-Japanese they are lumped into one category.  As you said, there is a huge variety in Japanese animation, mostly because they use animation as regular prime time television, as well as kid oriented stuff.  Science fiction, horror, kids entertainment, action/adventure, romance, sit-coms, historical dramas, and porn are all valid areas to present in an animated form there.    

Now, for convenience I still refer to Japanese animation as anime, mostly because it is easier.  I've seen arguments that the word defines the style, but since I have read and heard Japanese artists refer to American animation as "American anime" I really feel the difference is one of nationality and culture, with artistic style being a product of that, rather than a hard defined style.  basically, animation and anime are have identical meanings, only one is more commonly used to refer to Japanese products. 



			
				s/LaSH said:
			
		

> Now, as for Americans doing anime-style stuff: If they do it well, and it looks cool, then go ahead, I don't care. If they do it poorly, then it sucks and I don't watch it. I confess knowing virtually nothing about the background thereof, but a show titled 'Totally Spies' seems vaguely anime-esque to me yet isn't really all that good (although I have heard that one episode had Simon Templeman in it). That's something I'd avoid - it's a pander, as opposed to an actual adaptation of the 'style'. Which I think I mentioned is like saying 'the style of books', because it's rather general.




To me good animation is good regardless of who does it.  I have some friends that despise all american animation, and admittedly there is a lot of crap out there, but no worse than anime. 

I don't know what to think of Totally Spies.  On one hand it is kind of amusing, and on the other it sets of my prude alarms.  I am generally not a prude, but since this cartoon was originally slanted towards American pre-teen girls I have something of a problem with certain aspects.  Namely that the girls are constantly falling into these prone positions that display their figures in a "flattering" light.  It feels gratuitous.  I always thought it was a poor rip off of Danger Girl myself.  



			
				s/LaSH said:
			
		

> One thing I hate about anime, however, is the comedic things - giant sweatdrops, super-deformed faces, that kinda thing. (snip)I confess I felt that humanity was doomed when a recent Transformers series actually gave Predacons giant sweatdrops. We can all agree that the people involved should be shot, right?




Animation uses short cuts to describe emotion.  The Japanese just have different short cuts than we do.  I have not watched much of Transformers Armada, because I thought it was one of those "American Anime" shows that sucked.  In this case I mean one that uses pointedly Japanese design elements, but is still basically American.  It wasn't the Japanese elements that bugged me though, I just could not stand the voice acting, the new plot, the kids, the skateboarding and vespa mini-cons, or the cheap animation.  So I will agree to shoot them, but maybe the insecticon scene would have made me laugh at the novelty of it.



			
				s/LaSH said:
			
		

> Anyway, I don't care if it's Japanese or American - Japanese cartoons can be more mature and have cooler stand-alone images, while American cartoons can have a higher budget and animate more accurately and fluidly. That's the rough assessment I've made of the two styles. Now when they come together, you get really freaky cool stuff.



That is a pretty acuate assesment.  X-men Evolution may be what you are looking for.  Mad House is a Japanese design studio, and they are behind the show, but it never really looks like it is Japanese, aside from a small case of BESM, and even that is only just barely.  I am really looking forward to the day Disney starts to make movies that do not "pander" to adults and kids.  I have no problem with a family movie, but what I dislike is when a mature story is marred by very childish add ins.  Mulan for instance would have been beautiful had it simply been the story of a young Chinese girl pulling a Joan of Arc and saving her country and her family.  It would have been good for kids and their parents.  They could not trust that however, so they had to add Eddy Murphy's dragon, and a can-can number, and sing along songs, and cheesy slapstick comedy rather than story driven comedy.


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## Skade (Oct 1, 2003)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> I would guess what the author meant to convey, though perhaps did so poorly, was that a lot of animated stuff is in the anime style because, as someone said before, it's become hip.  He felt the show sucked, and part of it he feels was due to the anime style being used for no apparent reason.



I could buy that.  I don't know that is true though.  I think, rather, that Teen Titans is trying to do something not wholly Japanese nor American.  Our style of comic book superhero is pretty differnt from theirs, and Teen Titans because it was so tied to the 80's, needed a revamp to work I think.  It's the same reason that the new New Mutants series (comic not animated) is taking a fresh start, and a very different style from the old series.  I called the Batman series "aninoir", because I could see both Japanese and film noir influences in it.  Justice League added a fair amount of art deco to the design, and Teen Titans takes cues from the modern world.  Teen Titans has not only used Japanese comedy techniques, but utterly American ones as well.  In the mad mod episode we had the whole chase scene through the corridors, complete with musical interlude - a very Scooby-Doo sort of thing.    I think Teen Titans uses whatever they want, and hopefully will develop into its own internal style as Batman, Superman and Justic League did.  



			
				LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> Of course, you have to keep in mind that most people's experience with Japanese animation is crap like DBZ, Sailor Moon, and Pokemon.  And while it may not mean such in Japan, here everything that has a Japanese influence is called anime.  I've seen anime be applied to The Matrix even, and that's not even animated!



Exactly. 



			
				LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> And while some people here may be able to quote differences amongst Japanese animation, and how some is really anime and some isn't, it's really the public definition that matters.  Ask a random person what anime is, and the response will be Japanese cartoons nine times out of ten (if it isn't a "huh?").  ((((snip)))) It's the same with Emo (music).  I'm sure a lot of people have heard of Emo, which like Anime has become more prevalent in recent years.  Now I could talk (a bit) about the differences in Emo - Emocore, Emo, and the like.  But most people lump all of it together.((((snip))))All they see is the term - be it Anime, Emo, Prog Rock, or RPG.
> 
> So, I guess the moral is try and realize that while you may be an expert on the subject, the majority of the people aren't, don't care to be, and really don't care to make the distinctions that someone who does care will.  It's a functional definition that works for the majority of the people, and will be used as such.




Huh?   You are defintely right about definitions.  I don't even know that it should be strictly defined. A few years ago when American animation hit a bad slump I really got into anime, but I have never felt Japanese animation was inherently better, only more suited for adults.  

Emo?  Not to derail, but what is this?  Would you give me a little bit on this style of music?  maybe a few artists you think I should check out?

I don't really think of myself as an expert, or an "otaku" as some might say.  I'm certainly not an anime purist.  Most people I have met who call themselves otaku tend to be very dismissive of American animation, and usually American culture in general.  They take their obsession with Japanese culture to a point I would never dream, nor would want to.


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## LightPhoenix (Oct 1, 2003)

Skade said:
			
		

> Huh?  You are defintely right about definitions. I don't even know that it should be strictly defined. A few years ago when American animation hit a bad slump I really got into anime, but I have never felt Japanese animation was inherently better, only more suited for adults



I think there's an assumption in America that cartoons are inherently a youth-oriented art form.  In Japan it's made for all ages, but since we don't really have adult animation here in the States, we make the association that Anime = Adult.

And I think you hit spot on the reason Anime became so big - American animation just sucked for a long time.



> Emo? Not to derail, but what is this? Would you give me a little bit on this style of music? maybe a few artists you think I should check out?



Actually, I can't stand Emo, so I couldn't really help you that much.   The only reason I know about Emo at all is working at a college radio station.  A quick search of the net should turn up a list of good bands... Emo isn't that big of a genre.  It started as an underground offshoot of punk in Washington DC, and basically strives to convey intense emotions and angst.  There's only a few standards for Emo... octave chords, drastic dynamic changes, muffled lyrics often.



> I don't really think of myself as an expert, or an "otaku" as some might say. I'm certainly not an anime purist. Most people I have met who call themselves otaku tend to be very dismissive of American animation, and usually American culture in general. They take their obsession with Japanese culture to a point I would never dream, nor would want to.



Haha, yeah.  Which is ironic, since Japanese culture has just as many bad points as ours.  And if they went to Japan, a lot of people wouldn't even want them there... ahh, xenophobic cultures. 

Perhaps expert was the wrong word for it though.  Knowledgeable is probably a better one.  I'm knowledgeable to a certain extent about classical music, but certainly no expert.  Nonetheless, I would never dismiss other stuff altogether... even country .  I just have no patience for people who do that.


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## reiella (Oct 2, 2003)

Villano said:
			
		

> I disagree.  I think animation, like all other forms of media, eventually comes down to writing.  Batman did action and drama better than some anime.  And some anime are much funnier than US cartoons.
> 
> The problem I have with TT is that the anime-style stuff seems to be used hap hazardly.  For me, it's okay when someone gets a cartoony expression when shocked, scared, etc., but things like in the Mad Mod episode when they were looking in the cartoon holes and Cyborg's huge head came out of one seemed too out there.
> 
> ...




Hey now, to be fair, Mad Mod ripped off Scooby Doo's style more than anime style .

Onto topicality, anime is a medium, and more specifically a regional specific medium.  Asiatic cartoons.  Anime is just a term for animation, that the US has applied to animation that comes from Japan/Asia.

As a sidenote, those who liked Batman/Superman art-style, and would like to see something akin to that, watch Big O.  It's an anime that was heavily inspired by the Batman Animated Series (in terms of art), the manga is mediocre from what I've seen unforunately .


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## Gunter (Oct 2, 2003)

> Quote:
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Originally Posted by Skade
> Huh?  You are defintely right about definitions. I don't even know that it should be strictly defined. A few years ago when American animation hit a bad slump I really got into anime, but I have never felt Japanese animation was inherently better, only more suited for adults
> ...




I do not think that American animation sucked in the 90's it just became something JUST for childeren in the eyes of the Media corporations. 

Then Anime began to become popular and there was compitition. This paved the way for the new bread of American Animation. This resurgance has helped Anime and American Animation to a great extent. There is great stuff from both sides of the Pacific and we are all richer for it.


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## Gunter (Oct 2, 2003)

If the Anime style has become 'hip' in the US that means there is money there. Of course the Producers of Animation will use some of the forms. I just hope that they use them correctly and without overuse. Most people in the US need those conventions explained (teardrop, the inserted Kanji, super-deformed figures)


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## Skade (Oct 2, 2003)

Gunter said:
			
		

> If the Anime style has become 'hip' in the US that means there is money there. Of course the Producers of Animation will use some of the forms. I just hope that they use them correctly and without overuse. Most people in the US need those conventions explained (teardrop, the inserted Kanji, super-deformed figures)



 Well, very few of us Americans who really like Anime even get the inserted kanji.  I don't know that they need to be explained too much.  No one made a primer for Loony Toons cartoons and their shortcuts.  It just became self evident eventually.


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## reiella (Oct 2, 2003)

Skade said:
			
		

> Well, very few of us Americans who really like Anime even get the inserted kanji.  I don't know that they need to be explained too much.  No one made a primer for Loony Toons cartoons and their shortcuts.  It just became self evident eventually.




Related to this, and the Gunter's post commenting on the 'explanation' aspect.

That's a big reason I like some of the newer anime dvds.  The beauty in Risky and Safety (Beyond the "Look!  A Toliet!" intros) are translation notes being included as a DVD extra, to explain many of the oddities that show up.

I would also much perfer to see any Kanji that shows up subtitled.  Just ends up being a 'heh? wah?' aspect.


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