# Hawkeye Disney+ Limited Series (spoilers)



## Enevhar Aldarion (Nov 23, 2021)

Tomorrow is the big day, with the first two episodes debuting, so I figured it was time to start a fresh thread. One new official bit of info was revealed today, in that this series is set two years and a few months after Endgame, at Christmas time 2025. So another short time jump into the future from what we know in the previous series and movies.

That makes it a little over two years after WandaVision, close to two years after Falcon and Winter Soldier and over a year after Spiderman: Far From Home, as that school trip was June/July 2024. Loki's key events happen outside the timeline, so no way to make that fit and I am honestly not sure the exact time for the end-credits scenes in Shang-Chi or Black Widow, just they are post-Endgame.


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## Rabulias (Nov 24, 2021)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Loki's key events happen outside the timeline, so no way to make that fit and I am honestly not sure the exact time for the end-credits scenes in Shang-Chi or Black Widow, just they are post-Endgame.



The two end credit scenes in _Black Widow_ take place just before _Avengers: Infinity War _and (I believe) shortly before _Hawkeye, _respectively.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Nov 24, 2021)

Rabulias said:


> The two end credit scenes in _Black Widow_ take place just before _Avengers: Infinity War _and (I believe) shortly before _Hawkeye, _respectively.




No, the second one has Yelena at Natasha's grave, so that is post-Endgame. And Infinity War is 5 years before Endgame, so 7 years before Hawkeye.


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## Rabulias (Nov 24, 2021)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> No, the second one has Yelena at Natasha's grave, so that is post-Endgame. And Infinity War is 5 years before Endgame, so 7 years before Hawkeye.



Let me clarify: _Black Widow _end credit scene 1 takes place just before _Avengers: Infinity War_.
_Black Widow _end credit scene 2 takes place sometime after _Avengers: Endgame_, but I believe it takes place closer to the beginning of _Hawkeye _than to the end of _Avengers: Endgame_.


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## Davies (Nov 24, 2021)

Comments on episode 1 under spoilers:



Spoiler



Once upon a time there was a little princess who discovered that the world could be a terrifying place, and then was accidentally saved by a travelling prince. This was all very good, but so impressed with him was she that she decided to become a prince herself! Was this really a good idea?

(She could probably have done much better, but that's how it goes. Anyone want to bet that Kate's dad is actually alive and kicking?)

Oh the look on Clint and Lila's faces as they're watching the play! It stops being funny very quickly, though.

Well there's a kick in the pants for you.

And the Swordsman! Okay, this is taking some interesting turns.

Oh, I don't think this is going to play out the way that Kate thinks it will.

Fight choreography is a bit rougher than it has been recently, or possibly I'm spoiled by Arcane.

Oh good grief how long has that pizza been in there?

And they meet again for the first time. Away we go.



Episode 2:



Spoiler



Episode 2: 

Moira Brandon?! Wow, that's a deep cut!

The proper answer to "Why don't you join us?" in this situation is, "Because I'd rather eat offal."

Okay, I am convinced that Jeremy Renner is having the time of his life in this scene.

The proper answer to "Why don't you apologize" is also "Because I'd rather eat offal."

Kate's mom is probably the big bad.

And there's Echo. The cast is almost complete.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Nov 24, 2021)

Watched both episodes and enjoyed them, but not going to make spoiler comments yet. One side note, and don't anyone turn this political, but the actor playing Hawkeye's older son, Ben Sakamoto, would be perfect for the Kyle Rittenhouse biopic you know will be made. That whole thing is so recently in the news that I had to do a double take when I saw the actor on-screen.


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## Ryujin (Nov 24, 2021)

Davies said:


> Comments on episode 1 under spoilers:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I was thinking the same thing as your second to last comment on episode 2. After all, 



Spoiler



where did all that money come from?


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## Davies (Nov 24, 2021)

Ryujin said:


> I was thinking the same thing as your second to last comment on episode 2. After all,
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Spoiler



Ostensibly, I would suspect that it's seeded from a life insurance payout.


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## Ryujin (Nov 24, 2021)

Davies said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Ostensibly, I would suspect that it's seeded from a life insurance payout.



Maybe, but...



Spoiler



... they already had a penthouse in Manhattan, which would run in the millions of dollars. Sure, they were talking about selling it, so were having some sort of financial issues, but there was still a lot of money there.


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## Morrus (Nov 24, 2021)

I’ll change the thread title to say spoilers, folks. Saves having to put every post in a spoiler block. Feel free to start a separate non-spoiler thread if you feel the need for one!


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Nov 24, 2021)

Sorry @Morrus Thank you. I totally forgot to include that.


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## RangerWickett (Nov 25, 2021)

I thought the first two episodes were great. I was smiling throughout. I like the tone, and think Kate's step dad has great villain chemistry.


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## hawkeyefan (Nov 25, 2021)

Very good so far. The tone is perfect, the dynamic between Clint and Kate is great. A lot from the Fraction and Aja series is baked in, but it’s not just an adaptation (and couldn’t be). I saw Fraction had a consulting credit, so that’s awesome. I like when they do right by the comic guys.


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## DeviousQuail (Nov 25, 2021)

The first two episodes were good. The song and dance did play on longer than necessary but if I wrote that I would use all of it too. The chat about branding was funny on many levels and I assume that was intentional. My only complaint so far is with Kate Bishop. This is my introduction to her character and I find her 50% enjoyably funny and 50% annoyingly dumb. That does give her room to grow and I remember being an idiot when I was 22 but some of the choices she makes in the first episode are baffling. 

I was wrong a lot when trying to guess the outcomes/plot points of previous Marvel shows so I'll hold off on that.


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## RangerWickett (Nov 25, 2021)

How do you find her choices baffling? She's a self-assured kid who thinks she's got the chops to be a superhero. It makes sense to me.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Nov 25, 2021)

I am wondering what is up with the one-eyed dog? Did Fury somehow get transformed and we have not been shown yet? Can Skrulls be dogs?


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## Paul Farquhar (Nov 25, 2021)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Can Skrulls be dogs?



Yes, if they are skilled enough. Pizza-dog might well be Talos-Fury.


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## Ryujin (Nov 25, 2021)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> I am wondering what is up with the one-eyed dog? Did Fury somehow get transformed and we have not been shown yet? Can Skrulls be dogs?



Like Missi Pyle said in "Josie and the Pussycats"

*Alexander Cabot*: You know what? I still don't understand why you're here.
*Alexandra Cabot*: I'm here because I was in the comic book.
*Alexander Cabot*: What?
*Alexandra Cabot*: Nothing.


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## MarkB (Nov 25, 2021)

Any speculation about what's so great about the watch, and whether it's going to become a major McGuffin?


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## Stalker0 (Nov 25, 2021)

MarkB said:


> .Any speculation about what's so great about the watch, and whether it's going to become a major McGuffin?



My money is on stark tech. Also my money is that the mom actually killed Arnaldo, Jax is a red herring.

overall pretty decent so far, I agree with the comments above that Kate is annoyingly dumb at times, but ultimately I think that’s “realistic”.

The idea is she has practiced forever but has no real experience. Her martial arts is all tournament, her archery all ranges….nothing in real combat situations. She’s also well off and so a bit naive about the world.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Nov 25, 2021)

This is what one Easter Egg article had to say about the watch:



> The true goal of the Tracksuit Mafia's raid is to swipe a mysterious watch pulled from the Avengers Compound. The nature of the piece isn't obvious, but the red face would imply Stark tech - hence the high value. _Hawkeye_ certainly wouldn't be the first MCU story where a piece of Stark technology served as a MacGuffin. The label reads "Avengers Compound - Lot 268." The villain in _Avengers #268_? A certain Kang the Conqueror...




And the Jack Duquesne character is also named as the villain Swordsman in some cast listings. And we have seen cast listings for previous shows spoil character names before they are named that verbally in an episode. So while he probably killed his uncle, he may not be the Big Bad, and is just working for him or her. Remember all the rumors of Kingpin showing up in this series.


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## Ryujin (Nov 25, 2021)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> This is what one Easter Egg article had to say about the watch:
> 
> 
> 
> And the Jack Duquesne character is also named as the villain Swordsman in some cast listings. And we have seen cast listings for previous shows spoil character names before they are named that verbally in an episode. So while he probably killed his uncle, he may not be the Big Bad, and is just working for him or her. Remember all the rumors of Kingpin showing up in this series.



I'm wondering how deep into the comic lore they're going to go with Jack Duquesne. It could get very interesting.


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## Thomas Shey (Nov 25, 2021)

I like the fact there's clearly some differences in the levels of Kate's skills in her various areas of expertise.  She's a award winning in all of them, but her archery and gymnastics are clearly above her martial arts (though some of that is probably simply that she's a woman fighting larger men in a situation outside competition and practice, and she's not used to that).  The fencing is going to probably be next to useless, given its modern Western fencing (if she did saber, it might be vaguely useful, but only vaguely.  Foil and epee are pretty much worthless for any real combat purpose).

That said, she was good enough to recognize the Swordsman was throwing the fencing match.


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## Ryujin (Nov 25, 2021)

Thomas Shey said:


> I like the fact there's clearly some differences in the levels of Kate's skills in her various areas of expertise.  She's a award winning in all of them, but her archery and gymnastics are clearly above her martial arts (though some of that is probably simply that she's a woman fighting larger men in a situation outside competition and practice, and she's not used to that).  The fencing is going to probably be next to useless, given its modern Western fencing (if she did saber, it might be vaguely useful, but only vaguely.  Foil and epee are pretty much worthless for any real combat purpose).
> 
> That said, she was good enough to recognize the Swordsman was throwing the fencing match.



Most regular folks don't understand that modern fencing is a game to be won. They think that it's a combat skill. It will likely show up at some point.

Even with Martial Arts not being her best skill, they showed her to be able to improvise. Like when she slammed Huge Tracksuit Mafia guy into the hood of the car. He was too tough to take on directly, but making him eat a Toyota was effective.


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## Staffan (Nov 25, 2021)

Stalker0 said:


> The idea is she has practiced forever but has no real experience. Her martial arts is all tournament, her archery all ranges….nothing in real combat situations. She’s also well off and so a bit naive about the world.



Yeah, the way it looks is that she has a very high level of... I guess you could call it "first step skill". Like, oh, I happen to be dressed like the staff, so I'll grab a tray and follow the servers into the place where the shenanigans are happening... but I don't have a plan for dealing with being spotted. Or naughty word, my place is on fire, I guess I'll shoot the fire extinguisher... and I hit, and the high pressure jet makes the extinguisher fly around all over the place and out the window, without putting the fire out.

An experienced character like Clint, on the other hand, has a high level of "Rube Goldberg skill". It's not just "hitting thing with arrow", it's "hit thing with arrow so it gets knocked into that other thing which will fall down and hit that guy on his head." And not just when it comes to archery – he is a trained SHIELD agent after all, so he has lots of skill in infiltration, martial arts, all sorts of spycraft, and so on. He looked like he had the Tracksuit Mafia thing well in hand until Kate dropped by, for example.


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## Tonguez (Nov 25, 2021)

Watched it early this morning and really like the tone. I like that it is more lowkey than the other shows have been, it suits the Persona of the MCU Hawkeye -  part of the Marvel genius has been the ability to cross genres and tell different stories despite them all having the same obligatory super tropes. 

I like that they gave us young Kates perspective on the Battle of New York and her subsequent development and portrayal of dumb bravado - a self assured rich kid who believes she too can do anything and who at her most traumatic moment was inspired by "the guy with a bow". Clint proves that even normal people can be superheroes, so even moreso a princess like Kate should be able to be a superhero too.

I also really liked the Rogers musical and would love to see it expanded as a real world show! (It did drag on a bit, but oh well it was fun even with Clints cringe)

"I could do this all day"



DeviousQuail said:


> The first two episodes were good. The song and dance did play on longer than necessary but if I wrote that I would use all of it too. The chat about branding was funny on many levels and I assume that was intentional. My only complaint so far is with Kate Bishop. This is my introduction to her character and I find her 50% enjoyably funny and 50% annoyingly dumb. That does give her room to grow and I remember being an idiot when I was 22 but some of the choices she makes in the first episode are baffling.
> 
> I was wrong a lot when trying to guess the outcomes/plot points of previous Marvel shows so I'll hold off on that.


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## MoonSong (Nov 25, 2021)

I found some of the themes made it hard to watch, but it is a deeply personal thing. The whole thing is actually fun! I love Tony Dalton! There is a cute father -daughter chemistry going on. And I love the reality ensues for Kate and how she is making dumb mistakes and how she will eventually grow into a hero.


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## DeviousQuail (Nov 25, 2021)

RangerWickett said:


> How do you find her choices baffling? She's a self-assured kid who thinks she's got the chops to be a superhero. It makes sense to me.



For me it was the choice to engage with the tracksuits after she knocked out one guy and guaranteed the civilians escape (ignoring why she would put on the ronin costume and how she managed it in the 90 seconds she had before the bad guys said they were leaving). Her infiltration beforehand was fine but her whole train of thought was to spy on Armaund and Jack. The Mafia guys have nothing to do with that. They were stealing from a black market auction. She already did the hero thing so just leave and try to get in contact with her mom and see if Jack is there. Asking him why he was at a black market auction in front of her mother seems like a good play.

Instead after escaping the mafia she decides to run around New York in a vigilante costume and break into Armaund's place to do what? Find evidence of what Armaund is up to? Like anything would be sitting around, with no security systems at all, and no one in the place.

Climbing on the skylight only to fall through at the end of episode 2 was also dumb if only because why climb on it? Where was she trying to get to? Maybe if they showed her approach we would know but all I can assume is she thought climbing over the skylight was better than moving around it.


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## MarkB (Nov 25, 2021)

DeviousQuail said:


> For me it was the choice to engage with the tracksuits after she knocked out one guy and guaranteed the civilians escape (ignoring why she would put on the ronin costume and how she managed it in the 90 seconds she had before the bad guys said they were leaving). Her infiltration beforehand was fine but her whole train of thought was to spy on Armaund and Jack. The Mafia guys have nothing to do with that. They were stealing from a black market auction. She already did the hero thing so just leave and try to get in contact with her mom and see if Jack is there. Asking him why he was at a black market auction in front of her mother seems like a good play.



They were Bad Guys. They had a Nefarious Plan. In her mind, it was her job to make sure they failed.


DeviousQuail said:


> Instead after escaping the mafia she decides to run around New York in a vigilante costume and break into Armaund's place to do what? Find evidence of what Armaund is up to? Like anything would be sitting around, with no security systems at all, and no one in the place.



She works for a security company, she's middling-okay with lockpicks, she has special security-company apps on her phone. It doesn't need to be sitting out in plain sight for her to think she has a shot at getting to it.


DeviousQuail said:


> Climbing on the skylight only to fall through at the end of episode 2 was also dumb if only because why climb on it? Where was she trying to get to? Maybe if they showed her approach we would know but all I can assume is she thought climbing over the skylight was better than moving around it.



It's a point of entry. Maybe she was trying to find a way to open it.


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## DeviousQuail (Nov 25, 2021)

MarkB said:


> They were Bad Guys. They had a Nefarious Plan. In her mind, it was her job to make sure they failed.
> 
> She works for a security company, she's middling-okay with lockpicks, she has special security-company apps on her phone. It doesn't need to be sitting out in plain sight for her to think she has a shot at getting to it.
> 
> It's a point of entry. Maybe she was trying to find a way to open it.



1) And I would argue that was a dumb thing to do. It sets the bar for her growth as a character but it's a low bar.

2) She has all those things but that doesn't change the fact that people could have been there and unless her phone can turn off Armaund's security system I'm not sure what else she's supposed to do.

3) They needed to show it then. Because it just sounds like she's climbing over it. Everyone stops to listen and then she full body falls through.

Things like sneaking into the auction, shooting the fire hydrant, going to work even though Clint tells her not to are much better signs of her youth and naivete.


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## Ryujin (Nov 25, 2021)

MarkB said:


> They were Bad Guys. They had a Nefarious Plan. In her mind, it was her job to make sure they failed.
> 
> She works for a security company, she's middling-okay with lockpicks, she has special security-company apps on her phone. It doesn't need to be sitting out in plain sight for her to think she has a shot at getting to it.
> 
> It's a point of entry. Maybe she was trying to find a way to open it.



Or maybe she was leaning on it, trying to see what was going on below?


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## MoonSong (Nov 25, 2021)

No, no. It all just shows how out of her depth she is. She is competent to an extent, just completely outmatched and inexperienced.


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## Thomas Shey (Nov 25, 2021)

Ryujin said:


> Most regular folks don't understand that modern fencing is a game to be won. They think that it's a combat skill. It will likely show up at some point.




True.



Ryujin said:


> Even with Martial Arts not being her best skill, they showed her to be able to improvise. Like when she slammed Huge Tracksuit Mafia guy into the hood of the car. He was too tough to take on directly, but making him eat a Toyota was effective.




Sure.  That she was able to handle them all shows she's pretty good--just not in the weight class of her acrobatics and archery.


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## Ryujin (Nov 25, 2021)

Thomas Shey said:


> True.
> 
> 
> 
> Sure.  That she was able to handle them all shows she's pretty good--just not in the weight class of her acrobatics and archery.



I think that "weight class" is the operative term, for sure. Gymnasts tend to be smaller. It's a rotational mass thing. Archery requires some very specific muscles and, at a set draw weight for a recurve bow, any muscle mass beyond draw and hold is pretty extraneous. (We're not talking 150 pound English Longbow here. I'm thinking about the Lars Anderson videos in which he's crowing about archery combat skills, while half-drawing a 25 pound child's bow.) When it comes to being able to physically move bad guys, however, a certain amount of mass is beneficial.


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## Rune (Nov 26, 2021)

Regarding her decision-making: it’s worth remembering that, as her mother pointed out in episode 1, Kate Bishop has thus far not had to face major consequences for her mistakes.


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## Older Beholder (Nov 26, 2021)

I enjoyed the first two episodes.
With the last live action TV series being Loki and the last movie being Eternals, it was nice to get something I bit more down to Earth.

 The musical and the LARPing were both really fun scenes.


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## trappedslider (Nov 26, 2021)

The Lizard Wizard said:


> The musical and the LARPing were both really fun scenes.



His face during the LARP screamed "Dad doing stuff for his kid" lol


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## Davies (Nov 27, 2021)

trappedslider said:


> His face during the LARP screamed "Dad doing stuff for his kid" lol



Well, isn't that what Christmas is all about, really?


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## Morrus (Nov 27, 2021)

I like the dog!


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## Levistus's_Leviathan (Nov 27, 2021)

Morrus said:


> I like the dog!



Pizza dog is great!


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## Paul Farquhar (Nov 27, 2021)

MoonSong said:


> No, no. It all just shows how out of her depth she is. She is competent to an extent, just completely outmatched and inexperienced.



First level character is first level.


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## Zaukrie (Nov 28, 2021)

Really fun show so far


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## Morrus (Nov 28, 2021)

I am enjoying it a lot. The Tracksuit Mafia as bungling comedy villains are fun.


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## megamania (Nov 29, 2021)

Episode One and Two were decent.   Curious where it is going.  I'll watch the rest of it


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## Lidgar (Nov 29, 2021)

Slow-mo LARPing? Guy make “ching” sound effects as they fight with fake swords? Yeah, this is good.


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## pukunui (Nov 29, 2021)

Watched the first two eps over the weekend. Really enjoying it so far.

I want to know if Tony’s watch will show up again or if it was just a one-off.

I’m also suspicious of Kate’s mom. Her fiancé has villain written all over him, but she’s a bit more of a closed book. It’s obvious she started up a high-end security business as a follow-on from her comment to Kate at the funeral that it’s her job to be the protector. But just how far is she willing to go in that role? “I was only doing it to protect you” can and has been used to justify all sorts of things, after all!

The LARPing was a definite highlight.

Question: am I right in thinking the woman who appears to be the boss of the Tracksuit Mafia is deaf? She was touching the speaker as if to feel the sound, and the one crony appeared to be trying to use some kind of sign language while talking to her. Also, that could mean that earlier scene where Clint and his youngest son were using sign language was some foreshadowing.

EDIT: Also, is it fair to assume that Clint will make it home in time for Christmas?

Oh, and is it also fair to assume that Yelena won’t be showing up in this show? I don’t really see how they can fit her in, unless it’s just a quick thing, like a cliffhanger at the end or something. Perhaps they are saving the foreshadowed confrontation between Yelena and Clint for a future movie. (I just hope that, when it comes, Clint is able to convince Yelena that he isn’t responsible for Nat’s death.)


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## trappedslider (Nov 29, 2021)

pukunui said:


> Oh, and is it also fair to assume that Yelena won’t be showing up in this show? I don’t really see how they can fit her in, unless it’s just a quick thing, like a cliffhanger at the end or something. Perhaps they are saving the foreshadowed confrontation between Yelena and Clint for a future movie. (I just hope that, when it comes, Clint is able to convince Yelena that he isn’t responsible for Nat’s death.)



She's set to appear in the show, 4 out of the 6 episodes. With two down, she's going to be in the rest of it.


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## pukunui (Nov 29, 2021)

trappedslider said:


> She's set to appear in the show, 4 out of the 6 episodes. With two down, she's going to be in the rest of it.



Oh OK. That’s cool! They’ve very cleverly kept her out of the trailers then. Looking forward to more Florence Pugh!


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## BRayne (Nov 29, 2021)

pukunui said:


> Question: am I right in thinking the woman who appears to be the boss of the Tracksuit Mafia is deaf? She was touching the speaker as if to feel the sound, and the one crony appeared to be trying to use some kind of sign language while talking to her. Also, that could mean that earlier scene where Clint and his youngest son were using sign language was some foreshadowing.



Yeah, She's Echo


trappedslider said:


> She's set to appear in the show, 4 out of the 6 episodes. With two down, she's going to be in the rest of it.



I think that info comes from imdb which for that sort of thing often just puts expected appearances in all episodes and drops them as episodes are released and the actor isn't involved.


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## pukunui (Nov 29, 2021)

I don’t know who Echo is. I’ll have to Google it.


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## megamania (Nov 29, 2021)

If I remember it correctly, She is Taskmaster's daughter.  Black widow has changed Taskmaster so..... who knows.


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## BRayne (Nov 29, 2021)

megamania said:


> If I remember it correctly, She is Taskmaster's daughter.  Black widow has changed Taskmaster so..... who knows.




Echo is Kingpin's adopted daughter, Taskmaster's daughter is Finesse


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## Zaukrie (Nov 30, 2021)

Cool. Another thread talking about stuff not yet in the show. Maybe, just maybe, we can have one thread about a show where we don't talk about stuff not in the show yet ....


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## Davies (Dec 1, 2021)

Okay, so Maya has a very good reason to be peeved that Ronin appears to be back.

And the fight and the chase were fun, until ... until ... why, Lord? Why must you destroy everything that is beautiful?

I suspect that Clint is in fact feeling like there are no options at this point.

Oh ... that must be the most painful moment that he's been through in this whole thing.

And now where are we going?


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## DeviousQuail (Dec 1, 2021)

Trick arrows are always fun and it's enjoyable to see some new ones. The whole driving shootout was great and the Pym arrow was the icing on top. I enjoyed this episode more than the first two and a nice little cliff hanger at the end bodes well for the next episode.


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## Tonguez (Dec 1, 2021)

absolutely love how they did the nod to the comic book costume - purple, with a  big H on your forehead!

I think the Swordsman may be a red herring


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## Morrus (Dec 1, 2021)

So was that Vincent D'Onofrio's laugh?


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## Staffan (Dec 1, 2021)

Morrus said:


> So was that Vincent D'Onofrio's laugh?



I'm pretty certain it was.


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## Mort (Dec 1, 2021)

Staffan said:


> I'm pretty certain it was.




There's A LOT of talk that Echo is getting her own series - so this may well be more a tease for that than anything here - There's just a lot already going on!

Then again, who knows, maybe it will all be woven into the next 3 episodes.


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## Paul Farquhar (Dec 1, 2021)

Morrus said:


> So was that Vincent D'Onofrio's laugh?



It looked like his hand too. Hands are surprisingly recognisable.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Dec 1, 2021)

Mort said:


> There's A LOT of talk that Echo is getting her own series - so this may well be more a tease for that than anything here - There's just a lot already going on!




That was already confirmed back on Disney Plus Day when it was officially announced.


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## Ryujin (Dec 1, 2021)

DeviousQuail said:


> Trick arrows are always fun and it's enjoyable to see some new ones. The whole driving shootout was great and the Pym arrow was the icing on top. I enjoyed this episode more than the first two and a nice little cliff hanger at the end bodes well for the next episode.



Loved the trick arrow bit, but did an eye roll seeing that the "regular arrows" that they ran out of had field points


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## Herschel (Dec 2, 2021)

Watched the first two and thought it was really and utterly dumb to start. First it was "That's a really big house, I guess her parents are doing pretty well" to "In Manhattan?!?!?!" then to "Overlooking Stark Tower?!?!?! I guess she gets saved by Hawkeye from the Chitari next." Yep. 

The bell tower "collapse" was utterly nonsensical, as was her foray through the auction and grabbing the Ronin suit and somehow putting it on very quickly. It was so forced and lame a.f.

The main redeeming point has been that everyone recognizes Clint. I thought they were going to go with the dumb cliche of him not being mentioned in the musical and nobody recognizing him angle. I like Jeremy Renner, the dog  and the track suit mafia is kind of comical, but so far it's leaving me pretty cold.


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## embee (Dec 2, 2021)

I'm out! My suspension of disbelief has been utterly and irreparably destroyed!

I'm sorry but there is no way that the Tracksuit Mafia has a hideout in an old KB Toys store in Brooklyn. KB Toys went out of business in 2009. I can guarantee you that any space that large in Brooklyn that was abandoned in 2009 got converted to million-dollar loft condos in the intervening 15 years.

That space isn't just sitting there idle!


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## Marc Radle (Dec 2, 2021)

embee said:


> I'm out! My suspension of disbelief has been utterly and irreparably destroyed!
> 
> I'm sorry but there is no way that the Tracksuit Mafia has a hideout in an old KB Toys store in Brooklyn. KB Toys went out of business in 2009. I can guarantee you that any space that large in Brooklyn that was abandoned in 2009 got converted to million-dollar loft condos in the intervening 15 years.
> 
> That space isn't just sitting there idle!



That’s an odd hill on which to die, LOL!


----------



## Ryujin (Dec 2, 2021)

Marc Radle said:


> That’s an odd hill on which to die, LOL!



Especially since it wasn't too long ago that half the world disappeared, then came back, and there would be a whole lot of property with questionable ownership.

And it wasn't sitting idle. It was being used as a gang headquarters


----------



## Morrus (Dec 2, 2021)

embee said:


> I'm out! My suspension of disbelief has been utterly and irreparably destroyed!
> 
> I'm sorry but there is no way that the Tracksuit Mafia has a hideout in an old KB Toys store in Brooklyn. KB Toys went out of business in 2009. I can guarantee you that any space that large in Brooklyn that was abandoned in 2009 got converted to million-dollar loft condos in the intervening 15 years.
> 
> That space isn't just sitting there idle!



It’s not our universe .


----------



## embee (Dec 2, 2021)

Ryujin said:


> Especially since it wasn't too long ago that half the world disappeared, then came back, and there would be a whole lot of property with questionable ownership.
> 
> And it wasn't sitting idle. It was being used as a gang headquarters



See... that's a fantastic idea. 

A show about a superhero/attorney who fights villainy and litigates actions to quiet title.


----------



## billd91 (Dec 2, 2021)

According to Nerdist, the presence of KB Toys may be an easter egg. Every Easter Egg From HAWKEYE Episode Three - Nerdist



			
				Nerdist said:
			
		

> *KB Toys*​The fact that Kate and Clint are in an abandoned KB Toys might seem like a bit of simple nostalgia. It also works on the level that K and B are Kate Bishop’s initials. But there’s also a deeper Marvel connection here. During Marvel Comics’ turbulent business troubles in the mid-90s, Toy Biz (owned by Ike Perlmutter and exclusive to Marvel) greatly expanded their offerings in an attempt to stave off bankruptcy for the company. Many of those action figures were exclusive to KB Toys. When the inevitable happened and Marvel Comics went bankrupt, it was Perlmutter, Avi Arad, and the toy side of the business that took control of Marvel as a whole and put Joe Quesada at the head of the publishing side, which turned its fortunes around. A nice Marvel history egg there!


----------



## embee (Dec 2, 2021)

Morrus said:


> It’s not our universe .



So in that universe, KB Toys somehow managed to shift to e-commerce and survive an ill-planned IPO that wound up with the company getting purchased by venture capital. 

Yeah... I'm not seeing it.

I can buy the Snap and the Blip and Skrulls and megadoses of gamma radiation turning people into beings of infinite strength.  What I don't buy is a universe without a long drawn-out retailpocalypse or a non-gentrified Brooklyn.


----------



## Morrus (Dec 2, 2021)

embee said:


> So in that universe, KB Toys somehow managed to shift to e-commerce and survive an ill-planned IPO that wound up with the company getting purchased by venture capital.
> 
> Yeah... I'm not seeing it.
> 
> I can buy the Snap and the Blip and Skrulls and megadoses of gamma radiation turning people into beings of infinite strength.  What I don't buy is a universe without a long drawn-out retailpocalypse or a non-gentrified Brooklyn.



Blimey Tough crowd!


----------



## embee (Dec 2, 2021)

Morrus said:


> Blimey Tough crowd!



And that's another thing...

A functional subway. In New York City?! Absolutely NOT! 

That's as bad as the bus scene in Shang Chi - like that bus was able to drive like that without some Google employee shuttle bus illegally using the bus lane!


----------



## Ryujin (Dec 2, 2021)

embee said:


> So in that universe, KB Toys somehow managed to shift to e-commerce and survive an ill-planned IPO that wound up with the company getting purchased by venture capital.
> 
> Yeah... I'm not seeing it.
> 
> I can buy the Snap and the Blip and Skrulls and megadoses of gamma radiation turning people into beings of infinite strength.  What I don't buy is a universe without a long drawn-out retailpocalypse or a non-gentrified Brooklyn.



Nope. In that universe a major big bad _bought_ the warehouse, left the signs up as cover, then moved in his low level minions. It's what you do when you operate your cartel in a major North American city, that for some reason has a dearth of volcanoes in which to build secret bases.


----------



## Thomas Shey (Dec 2, 2021)

Ryujin said:


> Nope. In that universe a major big bad _bought_ the warehouse, left the signs up as cover, then moved in his low level minions. It's what you do when you operate your cartel in a major North American city, that for some reason has a dearth of volcanoes in which to build secret bases.




One of the TSM types actually complains how hard it is to find a decent warehouse any more.

As an old superhero gamer, my reaction was "This is what happens when you don't build a proper abandoned warehouse district."


----------



## doctorbadwolf (Dec 2, 2021)

hawkeyefan said:


> Very good so far. The tone is perfect, the dynamic between Clint and Kate is great. A lot from the Fraction and Aja series is baked in, but it’s not just an adaptation (and couldn’t be). I saw Fraction had a consulting credit, so that’s awesome. I like when they do right by the comic guys.



Considering your user image, you having a high opinion of it definitely bodes well.


Staffan said:


> He looked like he had the Tracksuit Mafia thing well in hand until Kate dropped by, for example.



Seems like a call back to Nat in Avengers so that would track. (pun intended)

Also I sell autoparts to a few guys who remind me of the tracksuits. Great sense of humour about themselves, very aware that they say bro way too much. Good customers. I wouldn't piss them off lightly.


----------



## embee (Dec 2, 2021)

Ryujin said:


> Nope. In that universe a major big bad _bought_ the warehouse, left the signs up as cover, then moved in his low level minions. It's what you do when you operate your cartel in a major North American city, that for some reason has a dearth of volcanoes in which to build secret bases.



Your theory fails for a very important reason. 

We live, according to Grant Morrison, on Earth 33. On Earth 33, KB was bought by Bain Capital. 

The MCU takes place on Earth 199999. But Bain Capital would never be a front for a major big bad on Earth 199999. 

That's because Earth 199999 exists as a highly profitable fictional universe on Earth 33, where, on Earth 33, Disney/Marvel's use of the name "Bain" as a big bad guy would result in contentious litigation between Disney/Marvel and AT&T/Warner Bros/DC Comics, which owns the trademark and copyrights for supervillains named "Bane" on any and all Earths, real or fictional, regardless of numeric designation of any particular Earth. 

Presumably, this would also include homophones of "Bane." Including "Bain."

So, no, there is no way that any major MCU villain would be associated with KB Toys or its erstwhile VC owner, Bain Capital because The One Above The One Above All (to wit, Disney's legal department) would never allow it. 

I leave you with some freestyle rap, courtesy of Bane.


----------



## billd91 (Dec 2, 2021)

embee said:


> Your theory fails for a very important reason.
> 
> We live, according to Grant Morrison, on Earth 33. On Earth 33, KB was bought by Bain Capital.
> 
> The MCU takes place on Earth 199999. But Bain Capital would never be a front for a major big bad on Earth 199999.



Is there any horror Bain Capital will not visit upon the toy store chains of my youth? KB and Toys R Us - looted for value and saddled with the burdens of being "rescued" by capitalists. To the barricades, comrades! URRAAHHH!


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Dec 2, 2021)

Thomas Shey said:


> One of the TSM types actually complains how hard it is to find a decent warehouse any more.
> 
> As an old superhero gamer, my reaction was "This is what happens when you don't build a proper abandoned warehouse district."



Flashbacks to _City of Heroes_, fighting minions through endless abandoned warehouse maps...


----------



## Tonguez (Dec 2, 2021)

embee said:


> So in that universe, KB Toys somehow managed to shift to e-commerce and survive an ill-planned IPO that wound up with the company getting purchased by venture capital.
> 
> Yeah... I'm not seeing it.
> 
> I can buy the Snap and the Blip and Skrulls and megadoses of gamma radiation turning people into beings of infinite strength.  What I don't buy is a universe without a long drawn-out retailpocalypse or a non-gentrified Brooklyn.



yeah its things like this that make me truely beleive that Merica is an entirely fictional country


----------



## beta-ray (Dec 2, 2021)

Ryujin said:


> Loved the trick arrow bit, but did an eye roll seeing that the "regular arrows" that they ran out of had field points



After that whole bit as Ronin, I suspect he generally uses less lethal hardware (though there was that whole exploding arrow thing…)


----------



## MarkB (Dec 2, 2021)

The USB arrow was unrealistic, it needs some kind of cable so that after the first shot you can retrieve it, turn it the other way up, and try again. And then try it the first way up again only this time it works for some reason.


----------



## Staffan (Dec 2, 2021)

MarkB said:


> The USB arrow was unrealistic, it needs some kind of cable so that after the first shot you can retrieve it, turn it the other way up, and try again. And then try it the first way up again only this time it works for some reason.



You'd think so, but this is Hawkguy we're talking about. As long as the USB connector is at the end of an arrow, he will be able to hit the port the right way around every time. As shown in the documentaries (_Avengers_, 2012).


----------



## Thomas Shey (Dec 3, 2021)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Flashbacks to _City of Heroes_, fighting minions through endless abandoned warehouse maps...




It was tradition long before CoH...


----------



## MarkB (Dec 3, 2021)

Staffan said:


> You'd think so, but this is Hawkguy we're talking about. As long as the USB connector is at the end of an arrow, he will be able to hit the port the right way around every time. As shown in the documentaries (_Avengers_, 2012).



Hawkeye's one true superpower? It's certainly a strong one.


----------



## Zaukrie (Dec 3, 2021)

Herschel said:


> Watched the first two and thought it was really and utterly dumb to start. First it was "That's a really big house, I guess her parents are doing pretty well" to "In Manhattan?!?!?!" then to "Overlooking Stark Tower?!?!?! I guess she gets saved by Hawkeye from the Chitari next." Yep.
> 
> The bell tower "collapse" was utterly nonsensical, as was her foray through the auction and grabbing the Ronin suit and somehow putting it on very quickly. It was so forced and lame a.f.
> 
> The main redeeming point has been that everyone recognizes Clint. I thought they were going to go with the dumb cliche of him not being mentioned in the musical and nobody recognizing him angle. I like Jeremy Renner, the dog  and the track suit mafia is kind of comical, but so far it's leaving me pretty cold.



We're friends, but you couldn't be more wrong.


----------



## RangerWickett (Dec 3, 2021)

I need to see Clint or Kate make some sort of pizza arrow to feed the dog.


----------



## Cadence (Dec 3, 2021)

I finally picked up Disney+ and got to see it.  I think the Matt Fraction original comic story/flavor/etc... is working a lot better in the MCU and with this adaptation -- Clint isn't being played as uncharacteristically clueless, and the lethality isn't out of character the way it was in the comics.


----------



## Staffan (Dec 3, 2021)

Cadence said:


> I finally picked up Disney+ and got to see it.  I think the Matt Fraction original comic story/flavor/etc... is working a lot better in the MCU and with this adaptation -- Clint isn't being played as uncharacteristically clueless, and the lethality isn't out of character the way it was in the comics.



One major difference between the two is that in the comics, Hawkeye was already an established character from Young Avengers when the Fraction/Aya run started. So she and Hawkguy are on a bit more even footing, whereas here it's basically her origin story.


----------



## Herschel (Dec 4, 2021)

The latest episode was MUCH better. The characters and story had some depth and focus while still retaining the recent Marvel "feel".  Maya, Kazi and William weren't just cardboard villains and made a good counter to the Tracksuit Mafia goofs.


----------



## pukunui (Dec 5, 2021)

I really enjoyed episode 3.

We’re halfway through now. We’ve had a hint that there’s some shadowy villain behind the Tracksuits (the mysterious “uncle”). Then there’s Jack.

Hailee Steinfeld is fantastic as always.

I’m still struggling to see how Yelena fits into this story. I suspect she’s going to appear briefly at the end in a typical MCU “setting up for the next bit” teaser. I’d love to be proved wrong, though.

The different trick arrows were fun. I’m unsure what the USB arrow is for, though.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Dec 5, 2021)

pukunui said:


> I’m unsure what the USB arrow is for, though.



Hacking computer networks.


----------



## MGibster (Dec 7, 2021)

embee said:


> I'm sorry but there is no way that the Tracksuit Mafia has a hideout in an old KB Toys store in Brooklyn. KB Toys went out of business in 2009. I can guarantee you that any space that large in Brooklyn that was abandoned in 2009 got converted to million-dollar loft condos in the intervening 15 years.



They lampshade that in the episode. One of the tracksuit guys is upset that Hawkeye is mocking them for their lame lair.  He goes on to complain about how difficult it is to find a decent lair because all the warehouses are being converted to lofts.


----------



## MGibster (Dec 7, 2021)

I'm enjoying the show.  Hawkeye was never my favorite Avenger, but he seems more in his element in this series and he's a lot of fun.  And Hailee Steinfeld has shown herself as a good actress ever since she was in _True Grit _and continues to hit it out of the park in _Hawkeye_.  I like Kate as a character and I wouldn't be surprised if this morphs into a series about her as either the new Hawkeye or perhaps under a different name.


----------



## Staffan (Dec 7, 2021)

MGibster said:


> I'm enjoying the show.  Hawkeye was never my favorite Avenger, but he seems more in his element in this series and he's a lot of fun.  And Hailee Steinfeld has shown herself as a good actress ever since she was in _True Grit _and continues to hit it out of the park in _Hawkeye_.  I like Kate as a character and I wouldn't be surprised if this morphs into a series about her as either the new Hawkeye or perhaps under a different name.



In the comics, they're both Hawkeye. Though some refer to Clint as Hawkguy.

Also in the comics, Kate had taken on the "mantle" of Hawkeye before she even met Clint. I believe she was introduced in the *amazing* Young Avengers series, and at the time Clint was having a slight case of the deads. So by the time of the Hawkeye comic the series is based on, Kate had already made a name for herself as Hawkeye.


----------



## Thomas Shey (Dec 7, 2021)

I get the impression on the show Kate doesn't actually start out planning to take the name; she just wants to be a hero using the same schtick.  She's clearly got too much hero worship to think usurping him would be appropriate (note how she keeps trying to tell him how to market himself better).

My guess will be that by the end of the series, Clint is going to go "You know what, I've been trying to kind of get out of the biz for a while now for my family, and you're able to take up the reins, so..."


----------



## Ryujin (Dec 7, 2021)

Thomas Shey said:


> I get the impression on the show Kate doesn't actually start out planning to take the name; she just wants to be a hero using the same schtick.  She's clearly got too much hero worship to think usurping him would be appropriate (note how she keeps trying to tell him how to market himself better).
> 
> My guess will be that by the end of the series, Clint is going to go "You know what, I've been trying to kind of get out of the biz for a while now for my family, and you're able to take up the reins, so..."



And who's willing to bet that her suit won't have a big "H" on the forehead?


----------



## MarkB (Dec 7, 2021)

Thomas Shey said:


> I get the impression on the show Kate doesn't actually start out planning to take the name; she just wants to be a hero using the same schtick.  She's clearly got too much hero worship to think usurping him would be appropriate (note how she keeps trying to tell him how to market himself better).
> 
> My guess will be that by the end of the series, Clint is going to go "You know what, I've been trying to kind of get out of the biz for a while now for my family, and you're able to take up the reins, so..."



Kind-of surprising that she hasn't already got her own branding sorted out. I'm waiting for a scene where she suggests "Hawkgirl" and Clint awkwardly says "no, I think that one's, um, taken."


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Dec 7, 2021)

Adjacent to this series, Kevin Feige confirmed that any future appearance by Daredevil in the MCU will be played by Charlie Cox. It is hard to tell by his wording whether anything with Cox has already been filmed or not, so unlikely he makes a surprise appearance here. More likely he would show up in either the She/Hulk or Echo series.

Also, looks like it is now confirmed that Kate will be in the 3rd Ant-Man movie.


----------



## trappedslider (Dec 7, 2021)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Adjacent to this series, Kevin Feige confirmed that any future appearance by Daredevil in the MCU will be played by Charlie Cox. It is hard to tell by his wording whether anything with Cox has already been filmed or not, so unlikely he makes a surprise appearance here. More likely he would show up in either the She/Hulk or Echo series.



He's rumored to be in spider-man no way home.


----------



## Bolares (Dec 7, 2021)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Also, looks like it is now confirmed that Kate will be in the 3rd Ant-Man movie.



Will we maybe have Stature in the movie too?


----------



## Thomas Shey (Dec 7, 2021)

trappedslider said:


> He's rumored to be in spider-man no way home.




Though supposedly _only_ as Matt.


----------



## Staffan (Dec 7, 2021)

Bolares said:


> Will we maybe have Stature in the movie too?



I was going to say no, at least not as Stature given that the actress who played Cassie Lang in Ant-Man and Ant-Man & The Wasp is only 13. But apparently they recast the character with a lady who's 24 (and yet another actress played her in Endgame), so it's very possible. I'm guessing there's some quantum stuff going on with her age.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Dec 8, 2021)

Staffan said:


> I was going to say no, at least not as Stature given that the actress who played Cassie Lang in Ant-Man and Ant-Man & The Wasp is only 13. But apparently they recast the character with a lady who's 24 (and yet another actress played her in Endgame), so it's very possible. I'm guessing there's some quantum stuff going on with her age.




The character of Cassie is 7 years older at the time of Hawkeye than she was in Ant-Man & the Wasp.


----------



## trappedslider (Dec 8, 2021)

Well, that was intense. How Kate got into the building made me think of The Bourne Identity, where Marie instead of following Jason's complicated plan just goes up and asks for the information.


----------



## Davies (Dec 8, 2021)

"I guess I'm going to just gonna have to trust everyone at this table to --" Oh, you are totally bad news, lady.

The ice packs scene does a great job of communicating how much Clint is too old for this naughty word without saying the deadly words.

I bet this is the first time he's ever talked about this with anyone.

God bless all smart young women; if we manage to get ourselves out of this hole, it will be because of them.

Oh God, even Kate's AUNT has something with that slogan?!

Anybody else think she's not getting that bag back?

Oh, but Kate has AWESOME social engineering skills!

Ms. Belova. We've missed you.

And he probably really thinks it is, too.


----------



## Bolares (Dec 8, 2021)

Staffan said:


> I was going to say no, at least not as Stature given that the actress who played Cassie Lang in Ant-Man and Ant-Man & The Wasp is only 13. But apparently they recast the character with a lady who's 24 (and yet another actress played her in Endgame), so it's very possible. I'm guessing there's some quantum stuff going on with her age.



She appears in endgame. She didn't disappear with the snap, so she is 5 years older than she was in ant man and the wasp. And by movie 3 some more years will have passed.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Dec 8, 2021)

Episode 4 definitely cranked up the speculation on who was the owner of that Rolex watch.


----------



## Thomas Shey (Dec 8, 2021)

Bolares said:


> She appears in endgame. She didn't disappear with the snap, so she is 5 years older than she was in ant man and the wasp. And by movie 3 some more years will have passed.




Yeah, Cassie should be at least an older teen at this point.


----------



## Bolares (Dec 8, 2021)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Episode 4 definitely cranked up the speculation on who was the owner of that Rolex watch.



Still gotta go to the gym before watching the new episode... God, I hate exercise.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Dec 8, 2021)

Bolares said:


> She appears in endgame. She didn't disappear with the snap, so she is 5 years older than she was in ant man and the wasp. And by movie 3 some more years will have passed.




Ant-Man 3 should take place after Hawkeye, if the rumors of Kate being in the movie end up being correct. Hawkeye is a little over two years after Endgame. Also, a third actress was cast to play Cassie in Ant-Man 3 to keep up with the aging of the character.


----------



## Bolares (Dec 8, 2021)

There os 


Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Ant-Man 3 should take place after Hawkeye, if the rumors of Kate being in the movie end up being correct. Hawkeye is a little over two years after Endgame. Also, a third actress was cast to play Cassie in Ant-Man 3 to keep up with the aging of the character.



a third Cassie? That makes me think even more that there will be stature


----------



## Cadence (Dec 8, 2021)

I can't believe it didn't hit me what Jacque's name was until episode 4.  Just started watching last week and apparently end of semester grading and deadlines have killed my brain.  (I did catch the name of one of her classmates in episode 1 at least).


----------



## Ryujin (Dec 8, 2021)

Cadence said:


> I can't believe it didn't hit me what Jacque's name was until episode 4.  Just started watching last week and apparently end of semester grading and deadlines have killed my brain.  (I did catch the name of one of her classmates in episode 1 at least).



I think that you can be forgiven if you had only read the name before and not heard it pronounced.


----------



## Stalker0 (Dec 9, 2021)

Davies said:


> The ice packs scene does a great job of communicating how much Clint is too old for this naughty word without saying the deadly words.



This is the part I think they are really getting right with hawkeye, he actually FEELS like the mortal avenger. In Black Widow, nat was basically a superpowered solider under the "guise" of a mortal.

The rooftop scene was interesting if a bit slow paced (and maya must have had some bad ass body armor). Also what was up with those weak as hell stingers? Nat's stingers could slow down the Black Panther, and these barely slowed down Clint or Maya. Hehe I laughed that Yelena couldn't shut up in the Black Widow movie, and now she is back to stone faced killer.

While I am still liking Kate, her attitude is starting to bother me. She has messed up way too many times in these last few days to still be this cocky... she says she understands the stakes, but she is still walking through this like she is in a video game.


----------



## darjr (Dec 9, 2021)

Sorry for not reading this thread before posting. Apologies. I’m not caught up. But apparently there is a D&D cameo in Hawkeye.


----------



## Tonguez (Dec 9, 2021)

Stalker0 said:


> This is the part I think they are really getting right with hawkeye, he actually FEELS like the mortal avenger. In Black Widow, nat was basically a superpowered solider under the "guise" of a mortal.
> 
> The rooftop scene was interesting if a bit slow paced (and maya must have had some bad ass body armor). Also what was up with those weak as hell stingers? Nat's stingers could slow down the Black Panther, and these barely slowed down Clint or Maya. Hehe I laughed that Yelena couldn't shut up in the Black Widow movie, and now she is back to stone faced killer.
> 
> While I am still liking Kate, her attitude is starting to bother me. She has messed up way too many times in these last few days to still be this cocky... she says she understands the stakes, but she is still walking through this like she is in a video game.



Yeah I agree while it was a cool way to introduce comic book accorate Yelena her stingers were way underpowered (and red) and Kate was way too component against both Echo and a Black Widow assasin (although I have heard at least one theory that might account for it and Yelena shaking her head as a warning not to get involved).

I didnt mind Yelenas different characterisation compared to the movie - that one was her interacting with her 'family', recalling her little sister vibe, in Hawkeye she is on a revenge mission, she's trained to maintain her cool.

Also heard a really mindblowing theory from Grace Randolph (Beyond the Trailer) about who the owner of the Watch might be. If its correct then extra kudos for the writers laying it in.



darjr said:


> Sorry for not reading this thread before posting. Apologies. I’m not caught up. But apparently there is a D&D cameo in Hawkeye.



if its the one theyve already done then Roleplaying yes, but not necessarily DnD (and over at least 3 episodes too)


----------



## rozgarth (Dec 9, 2021)

The D&D reference is the poster of the cover of the 5e Player’s Handbook hanging on the wall in the background of the apartment where Kate is trying on her “Viking” costume and where Clint comes to pick up the trick arrows.


----------



## pukunui (Dec 9, 2021)

I _knew_ they were just going to tease us with Yelena! I hope she gets to say something in the next episode.

Kate’s mom is still suss.

I want to know what’s so important about Tony’s old watch.

I didn’t realise that Clint’s wife had anything to do with his “job”. Interesting that she’s basically his “man in the chair”, to quote Spider-Man.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Dec 9, 2021)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Episode 4 definitely cranked up the speculation on who was the owner of that Rolex watch.



I thought it answered it - it belonged to former agent Mrs Hawkeye.


----------



## pukunui (Dec 9, 2021)

Paul Farquhar said:


> I thought it answered it - it belonged to former agent Mrs Hawkeye.



I still think it’s Tony’s watch.


I was just reading up on actress Alaqua Cox. I didn’t realize she was born deaf and has a prosthetic leg for real! She even says that Jeremy and Hailee learned some basic ASL so they could talk to her on set. How cool is that?!


----------



## Janx (Dec 9, 2021)

It's probable that Clint's wife owns the watch. She knows he was Ronin, and seems connected to Clint's research resources. Which also brings her and the family back into the story for more than a few phone calls.

I expect we'll be racing back home to rescue them and/or finding them in a warehouse all tied up soon. Based on the end of ep 4, Clint will also need rescuing by Kate.

Maya and Kate seem like mirrors. Privilege vs. hard upbringing, but both focussed on martial arts and somehow missed each other in NYC tournaments.

As for Yelena, I question why she trusts her source that Clint killed her sister in the "needs revenging" way.  Wouldn't she do a little research?  Maybe even go undercover to learn more? Given that Clint tells nobody anything, this is a bit unrealistic. And given that Yelena had been used as a tool for years, you'd think she'd not be down with being a tool again.


----------



## billd91 (Dec 9, 2021)

Janx said:


> As for Yelena, I question why she trusts her source that Clint killed her sister in the "needs revenging" way.  Wouldn't she do a little research?  Maybe even go undercover to learn more? Given that Clint tells nobody anything, this is a bit unrealistic. And given that Yelena had been used as a tool for years, you'd think she'd not be down with being a tool again.



What research is there to do? Clint is literally the only source on how Natasha died. And given the abandonment feelings she has had for Natasha, even though they reconciled, she very well may resent Clint for his involvement - and wouldn't necessarily have worked through those feelings. 
Plus, she may now be a free lancer and have more control over the jobs she takes rather than plays the part of a tool under someone else's direction. That's not being a tool - that's freely marketing her skill set.


----------



## Tonguez (Dec 9, 2021)

pukunui said:


> I still think it’s Tony’s watch.
> 
> 
> I was just reading up on actress Alaqua Cox. I didn’t realize she was born deaf and has a prosthetic leg for real! She even says that Jeremy and Hailee learned some basic ASL so they could talk to her on set. How cool is that?!



Yeah the casting of Cox was big news in the deaf community and a huge step for representation, especially as its her debut role. The writers stated that her prosthetic would also be incorporated into the characters portrayal, she uses it in combat, which is really cool.

2 Why do you think its Tonys Watch? I dont think Clint would be so concerned about it tying back to his family if it was Tonys watch.

I think Mrs Hawkeye speaking German and being his researcher was the clear indicator that its hers and that shes not just the stay at home housewife of CB1. Hopefully its a smoking chekov too and she goes in to action in the last episode (or maybe season 2 - lets Scooby Doo this!)


----------



## Janx (Dec 9, 2021)

billd91 said:


> What research is there to do? Clint is literally the only source on how Natasha died. And given the abandonment feelings she has had for Natasha, even though they reconciled, she very well may resent Clint for his involvement - and wouldn't necessarily have worked through those feelings.
> Plus, she may now be a free lancer and have more control over the jobs she takes rather than plays the part of a tool under someone else's direction. That's not being a tool - that's freely marketing her skill set.



Maybe it's just me, but I'd like to be sure before I kill a man.

Heck, even Clint gave it some thought before he pulled the trigger on Natasha the first time.  And he saw somebody who wanted to get out. So he didn't pull the trigger.


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## Bolares (Dec 9, 2021)

I liked how they showed hawkeye’s mortality, and they gave a lot of character development for the both of them


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## Zaukrie (Dec 9, 2021)

I really like that he's just a very talented human, and that the show is very much about consequences. Very little fiction deals with consequences. This might be my favorite Marvel in a long time.


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## billd91 (Dec 9, 2021)

Zaukrie said:


> I really like that he's just a very talented human, and that the show is very much about consequences. Very little fiction deals with consequences. This might be my favorite Marvel in a long time.



Honestly, I'm pretty sure he's a bit more than just a talented normal. He did score an 18 on 18 holes after just taking up golf. I just think what qualifies as his superpower is very subtle - something like super accuracy. Very useful for an organization like SHIELD to develop a highly competent agent around.


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## Thomas Shey (Dec 9, 2021)

I actually got the impression they might be telling us that Echo is, over and above her skills, particularly tolerant of pain and shock (there's precedent for that in human-scale heroes, since its part of the Netflix Daredevil's gig) which explains her dealing with both the Widow's Sting and the arrow.


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## Cadence (Dec 9, 2021)

billd91 said:


> Honestly, I'm pretty sure he's a bit more than just a talented normal. He did score an 18 on 18 holes after just taking up golf. I just think what qualifies as his superpower is very subtle - something like super accuracy. Very useful for an organization like SHIELD to develop a highly competent agent around.




I think every hero in the 616 and MCU that makes it more than an issue/scene or two has at least one of super-luck, spidey-sense equivalent, partial invulnerability, or regeneration.   And, especially in the 616, they and almost all of the citizens must have at least partial resistance to PTSD.


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## Ryujin (Dec 9, 2021)

Janx said:


> Maybe it's just me, but I'd like to be sure before I kill a man.
> 
> Heck, even Clint gave it some thought before he pulled the trigger on Natasha the first time.  And he saw somebody who wanted to get out. So he didn't pull the trigger.



I expect we'll find out that she patently _doesn't_ trust some government suit about what happened and is looking for a way to properly tie things together. She looks a lot more "mature" that in the "Black Widow" movie, with less obvious makeup and having learnt to keep her mouth shut, so I think that she'll not simply be trusting government types just because they ain't Russian.


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## Rune (Dec 9, 2021)

Tonguez said:


> 2 Why do you think its Tony Watch? I dont think Clint would be so concerned about it tying back to his family if it was Tonys watch.
> 
> I think Mrs Hawkeye speaking German and being his researcher was the clear indicator that its hers and that shes not just the stay at home housewife of CB1. Hopefully its a smoking chekov too and she goes in to action in the last episode (or maybe season 2 - lets Scooby Doo this!)



It does seem likely that Laura Barton was/is an agent of some kind, but I very much doubt that the watch is hers. It’s waaay too fancy/expensive/conspicuous for the Bartons.

That’s the kind of watch you’d expect to see on a Tony Stark or a Dr. Strange. If it were Laura’s, I’d expect it to be much more practical than showy.


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## MarkB (Dec 9, 2021)

billd91 said:


> What research is there to do? Clint is literally the only source on how Natasha died.



Indeed. And since she hasn't actually killed Clint yet, there's every reason to suspect that she _is_ doing her research, and going to the only source available. In other words, she likely plans to ask him some very pointed questions rather than just killing him outright.


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## Rune (Dec 9, 2021)

MarkB said:


> Indeed. And since she hasn't actually killed Clint yet, there's every reason to suspect that she _is_ doing her research, and going to the only source available. In other words, she likely plans to ask him some very pointed questions rather than just killing him outright.



The thing is, there really isn’t any research to _do_, unless she can somehow track down the Red Skull for an interview.

The thing I wonder about is where that photo that Val showed her even came from. Pretty sure it’s from the moment Natasha tracked Ronin down in Endgame.


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## Stalker0 (Dec 9, 2021)

Janx said:


> As for Yelena, I question why she trusts her source that Clint killed her sister in the "needs revenging" way.  Wouldn't she do a little research?  Maybe even go undercover to learn more? Given that Clint tells nobody anything, this is a bit unrealistic. And given that Yelena had been used as a tool for years, you'd think she'd not be down with being a tool again.



We have to remember, that for much of Yelena's adult life she has been a tool, constantly told what to do. She is not used or practiced at having freedom.

People get this notion that freedom is "automatic", that the second a person's chains are broken they just become this perfectly autonomous human being. But freedom is like anything else, using it takes practice....getting comfortable with the idea that suddenly your choices matter, and that means the responsibility of those choices is on you now. Thinking for yourself requires... thinking, and thinking can be very hard.

All of that to say is, Yelena is used to taking orders and punching things....that is a lot easier to her than having to think critically, assess the morality of her actions, etc. Combine that with the anger of her sister's death and the desire for revenge, yeah I could totally see her going off the deep end a bit.


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## Stalker0 (Dec 9, 2021)

One question I do have... why is Clint's family so in the spotlight now?

In previous movies, Clint basically had a secret family, so secret that people like Tony Stark didn't know about them. Now they are out in New York city, and people suddenly have their names on lists. Was it the Blip that made Clint decide he didn't want to hide them anymore, or maybe the logistics that they are getting older and just can't be kept hidden as much anymore?

As far as I know that has never really been addressed.


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## Bolares (Dec 9, 2021)

Stalker0 said:


> One question I do have... why is Clint's family so in the spotlight now?



Because he is basically retired. He retired back in avenger 2 actually, but got ropped back in on the civil war, and then got house arrested (and made peace with it). He became Ronin when his family "died". He is working again now because of the ronin suit.


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## MarkB (Dec 9, 2021)

Stalker0 said:


> One question I do have... why is Clint's family so in the spotlight now?
> 
> In previous movies, Clint basically had a secret family, so secret that people like Tony Stark didn't know about them. Now they are out in New York city, and people suddenly have their names on lists. Was it the Blip that made Clint decide he didn't want to hide them anymore, or maybe the logistics that they are getting older and just can't be kept hidden as much anymore?
> 
> As far as I know that has never really been addressed.



It hasn't, but one possibility is that their identities became public knowledge in the wake of the Snap - there was no longer any need to keep their connection to him secret, so he attended their funerals, acknowledged their existence, etc., sometime before he spiralled down to becoming Ronin.

And then they got unsnapped, but keeping his connection to them hidden was no longer an option.


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## Tonguez (Dec 9, 2021)

Rune said:


> It does seem likely that Laura Barton was/is an agent of some kind, but I very much doubt that the watch is hers. It’s waaay to fancy/expensive/conspicuous for the Bartons.
> . If it were Laura’s, I’d expect it to be much more practical than showy.



thats a fair assessment, but due to the active transmitter, I'd assume it was SHIELD issued (and Stark designed) so would have been okay for that mission. Clint did describe it as belonging _ to someone I used to work with whose been out of the game a long time. _



MarkB said:


> Indeed. And since she hasn't actually killed Clint yet, there's every reason to suspect that she _is_ doing her research, and going to the only source available. In other words, she likely plans to ask him some very pointed questions rather than just killing him outright.




That was my assessment too -this attack was Yelena doing research, hence her stylish exit

As to the source of the Ronin photo (and the list of names) - Kates mother owns a security company with cameras all over the city. Swordsman is a red herring (nuff said )


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## MarkB (Dec 9, 2021)

Tonguez said:


> thats a fair assessment, but due to the active transmitter, I'd assume it was SHIELD issued (and Stark designed) so would have been okay for that mission. Clint did describe it as belonging _ to someone I used to work with whose been out of the game a long time. _



I did wonder if maybe it was Natasha's. It's also too flashy for her, but not necessarily for one or another of her cover identities.


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## pukunui (Dec 9, 2021)

Tonguez said:


> 2 Why do you think its Tonys Watch? I dont think Clint would be so concerned about it tying back to his family if it was Tonys watch.



Because Tony is the only one who's been shown with an interest in expensive watches. He was depicted selecting one from several options at least twice previously. Also, Clint is the one who was meant to keep the Avengers grounded, so perhaps he made himself the protector of the remains of the Avengers compound.

I'm going off that precedent. However, I acknowledge it may be that the show _wants_ me to think it's Tony's watch.

If it isn't, I think it's more likely a relic from Clint's era as Ronin. Even if his wife was a SHIELD agent prior to getting married (and that could explain how they met - perhaps she was based in Germany - and it could also explain Clint's comment about it belonging to someone he used to work with who's been out of the game for a long time), she was never an Avenger, so why would her watch have been kept in the Avengers compound?

If it's a Ronin relic, that could also explain why Maya was after it.

Maybe the watch was Clint's - given to him by Tony - and the tracker was so Laura could keep tabs on him. 
Or maybe it was Laura's from when she was an active field agent and Clint kept it in his room at the compound as a memento or something (and/or so the built-in tracker couldn't be used to find his wife and family).

Hopefully they'll explain it by the last episode.


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## Staffan (Dec 9, 2021)

Davies said:


> Anybody else think she's not getting that bag back?



I'm guessing she gets the bag back, but it will be A Thing. Kate will be doing something stupidly heroic to get it back or keep it safe or something.

As for the watch, I'm pretty sure it's not Tony's. Clint sees it as important because it will implicate someone he cares about, and it seems pretty clear that it's someone who's still alive but staying under the radar. Top candidates would be Laura, Fury, and Steve, with Coulson being a dark horse.


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## Bolares (Dec 9, 2021)

I'm anxious to see the costumes the LARPers will design. Disney+ costumes have been great till now.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Dec 9, 2021)

Regarding the watch, people need to go back over the all the dialogue about it. On the phone, Clint and Laura sound to me like they are talking about it belonging to someone else, not to one of them. It belonged to someone who has been retired for a long time and the watch in the wrong hands would out this person. It likely belongs to someone who has not appeared in the MCU yet, maybe an Avenger connected to Kang, as all this links into Phase 4 and Kang as the Big Bad. Remember that there are both good and bad versions of Kang out there in the multiverse.


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## pukunui (Dec 9, 2021)

Bolares said:


> I'm anxious to see the costumes the LARPers will design. Disney+ costumes have been great till now.











Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Regarding the watch, people need to go back over the all the dialogue about it. On the phone, Clint and Laura sound to me like they are talking about it belonging to someone else, not to one of them. It belonged to someone who has been retired for a long time and the watch in the wrong hands would out this person. It likely belongs to someone who has not appeared in the MCU yet, maybe an Avenger connected to Kang, as all this links into Phase 4 and Kang as the Big Bad. Remember that there are both good and bad versions of Kang out there in the multiverse.



Oooh! Good thinking there. You may be on to something.


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## Thomas Shey (Dec 9, 2021)

Yeah, it could be someone in that earlier generation of stealth supers like Ant Man I.


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## billd91 (Dec 9, 2021)

There's some interesting speculation going on. My prime candidates:
1) Laura - she's the one who brings the watch to Clint's attention in the first place, plus she's well connected with resources - able to find info for Clint and was highly trusted by Nick Fury. All that could indicate she has a history as someone well-placed at SHIELD or a side-organization for Fury.

If we're looking at Hawkeye from Earth-616's history, which the MCU loves to raid in various ways, we've got:
2) Barney Barton - Clint's brother, Barney figures into a showdown between Hawkeye with Kate Bishop and the Tracksuit Mafia in the comics
3) Trickshot
4) the Swordsman - but since he's appearing in another capacity, and Clint actually seems to be investigating him seriously, probably not. Though I think Yelena may have been hired by him (or Kate's mom) considering her efforts to keep Kate out of the fight.

Or, of course, it could be someone completely different to tie in with another MCU storyline... even though that's a lot less satisfying for the easter egg hunters.
I'm leaning toward either Laura or some Barney analog.


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## pukunui (Dec 9, 2021)

billd91 said:


> There's some interesting speculation going on. My prime candidates:
> 1) Laura - she's the one who brings the watch to Clint's attention in the first place, plus she's well connected with resources - able to find info for Clint and was highly trusted by Nick Fury. All that could indicate she has a history as someone well-placed at SHIELD or a side-organization for Fury.



Yeah, I think it's clear that Laura isn't just a housewife. She may have been an active SHIELD agent in the past. Since getting married and having kids, she's become Clint's "man in the chair".



billd91 said:


> Though I think Yelena may have been hired by him (or Kate's mom) considering her efforts to keep Kate out of the fight.



I've been wondering this myself. Who did Kate's mom call after Clint left the apartment? Did that phone call lead to Yelena's appearance?

If yes, I think this could be another case of borked timing, because it was very clearly not winter time in Ohio when Yelena got the job to go after Clint at the end of _Black Widow_.


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## Tonguez (Dec 9, 2021)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Regarding the watch, people need to go back over the all the dialogue about it. On the phone, Clint and Laura sound to me like they are talking about it belonging to someone else, not to one of them. It belonged to someone who has been retired for a long time and the watch in the wrong hands would out this person. It likely belongs to someone who has not appeared in the MCU yet, maybe an Avenger connected to Kang, as all this links into Phase 4 and Kang as the Big Bad. Remember that there are both good and bad versions of Kang out there in the multiverse.




In Comics there is a Mrs Barton who comes out of retirement to defeat Kang (and the Grim Reaper, who was teased in WandaVision), theres also the situation where Hawkeye and his wife go on to set up West Coast Avengers (and mentor the next genration of Great lakes Avengers)
its all speculation but Feige may be _mocking_ us


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## pukunui (Dec 9, 2021)

OK so Kate keeps reminding us that her mom canceled her credit card, so how did she get all those Christmas decorations and the pizza?


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## billd91 (Dec 9, 2021)

pukunui said:


> OK so Kate keeps reminding us that her mom canceled her credit card, so how did she get all those Christmas decorations and the pizza?



Picked up cash at home? Or nicked her mother's credit card?


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## MarkB (Dec 9, 2021)

pukunui said:


> OK so Kate keeps reminding us that her mom canceled her credit card, so how did she get all those Christmas decorations and the pizza?



Maybe she actually told her mother what she was planning, to the extent of "go and keep Clint company", and asked for money to buy some things for him.


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## pukunui (Dec 9, 2021)

Maybe! Without an in-show explanation, though, it comes across as inconsistent to me.

Why belabor the point that she can't pay for stuff herself if you're just going to show her mysteriously showing up with purchases without any explanation?


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## Tonguez (Dec 9, 2021)

pukunui said:


> OK so Kate keeps reminding us that her mom canceled her credit card, so how did she get all those Christmas decorations and the pizza?




eftpos? Do they still do standard bank withdrawals in your town? (serious question,its getting really hard to do it in mine)

to me the point about her Credit Cards being cancelled was to make the point that she's rich and use to laying out a grand of so for bow accesories and stuff etc, but since they've been cancelled she has to 'slum it' and have a normal budget


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Dec 9, 2021)

billd91 said:


> There's some interesting speculation going on. My prime candidates:
> 1) Laura - she's the one who brings the watch to Clint's attention in the first place, plus she's well connected with resources - able to find info for Clint and was highly trusted by Nick Fury. All that could indicate she has a history as someone well-placed at SHIELD or a side-organization for Fury.
> 
> If we're looking at Hawkeye from Earth-616's history, which the MCU loves to raid in various ways, we've got:
> ...




My thoughts are on Simon Williams AKA Wonderman. I remember back when WandaVision was still new and there were these behind-the-scenes interviews. In one of them, there are a bunch of storyboards in the background that are blurred out, but not quite enough to prevent seeing that one of them was of Wonderman. And since he has a history with both the Avengers and Kang, he may first show up in a Disney+ show before being in the movies.


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## Staffan (Dec 9, 2021)

Tonguez said:


> In Comics there is a Mrs Barton who comes out of retirement to defeat Kang (and the Grim Reaper, who was teased in WandaVision), theres also the situation where Hawkeye and his wife go on to set up West Coast Avengers (and mentor the next genration of Great lakes Avengers)
> its all speculation but Feige may be _mocking_ us



I really hope they aren't going to turn Laura Barton into Mockingbird. We've already seen Bobbi Morse in the MCU, or at least adjacent to it in Agents of SHIELD (and she was around in season 2, when they were still connected).

That said, I'd be super-impressed if the watch was connected to *that* version of the character though.


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## Ryujin (Dec 9, 2021)

pukunui said:


> Because Tony is the only one who's been shown with an interest in expensive watches. He was depicted selecting one from several options at least twice previously. Also, Clint is the one who was meant to keep the Avengers grounded, so perhaps he made himself the protector of the remains of the Avengers compound.
> 
> I'm going off that precedent. However, I acknowledge it may be that the show _wants_ me to think it's Tony's watch.
> 
> ...



Please keep in mind that Rolex watches, like the famous Submariner, have been military issue in various countries over the years. They aren't just the purview of the wealthy.


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## pukunui (Dec 9, 2021)

Ryujin said:


> Please keep in mind that Rolex watches, like the famous Submariner, have been military issue in various countries over the years. They aren't just the purview of the wealthy.



That's fine. It's just that for me, MCU + expensive watch = Tony. Happy to be proven wrong.


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## billd91 (Dec 9, 2021)

pukunui said:


> That's fine. It's just that for me, MCU + expensive watch = Tony. Happy to be proven wrong.



I doubt it has to deal with Stark. He’s dead. Exposing any link to him won’t matter. There‘s no vulnerability. Why would Laura be the one asking about it?


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## Staffan (Dec 9, 2021)

pukunui said:


> That's fine. It's just that for me, MCU + expensive watch = Tony. Happy to be proven wrong.



Clint's words are: "A watch, vintage Rolex. Belongs to someone I used to work with. [...] They've been out of the game a long time but their identity is still attached to that watch. [If the Tracksuits find out about it] it would blow their cover. Goodbye, friend."

That very much sounds like he's talking about someone who's still alive, which means it's not Tony. Because Tony's dead, and at this point has been for years. Laura is the most likely, because while "a long time" is relative, it likely refers to someone who was not active during the events of Endgame. Laura clearly has some agent chops, but probably left the biz when she and Clint started making babies.

It also would not surprise me if Laura is the target Clint didn't shoot. I haven't seen Black Widow so I don't know if his story refers to something in that movie, but if not Laura makes more sense.


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## billd91 (Dec 9, 2021)

Staffan said:


> It also would not surprise me if Laura is the target Clint didn't shoot. I haven't seen Black Widow so I don't know if his story refers to something in that movie, but if not Laura makes more sense.



While not explicit, they‘re pretty strongly implying it’s Natasha whom he didn’t shoot.


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## Staffan (Dec 9, 2021)

billd91 said:


> While not explicit, they‘re pretty strongly implying it’s Natasha whom he didn’t shoot.



I mean, it could be. But Clint only says that there's a target he could have shot, but didn't, because his gut told him she was looking for a way out. *Kate* assumes he's talking about Natasha, and he does not correct her.

I mean, I'm not saying I'm certain it's Laura, but it definitely wouldn't surprise me.


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## Stalker0 (Dec 9, 2021)

Staffan said:


> I really hope they aren't going to turn Laura Barton into Mockingbird.



I hope so too. I actually really like her character, she's just a strong woman who accepts the danger of her husbands job and supports him but also knocks the sense into him when he needs it.

I don't need her turning into a superhero to be cool; she already is!


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## Stalker0 (Dec 9, 2021)

Staffan said:


> I mean, it could be. But Clint only says that there's a target he could have shot, but didn't, because his gut told him she was looking for a way out. *Kate* assumes he's talking about Natasha, and he does not correct her.



He does not correct her, but he does immediately start talking about Natasha and the time he did not shoot her.

I mean they could make the dialogue that silly just to keep secrets, but I hope they don't


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## pukunui (Dec 9, 2021)

billd91 said:


> I doubt it has to deal with Stark. He’s dead. Exposing any link to him won’t matter. There‘s no vulnerability. Why would Laura be the one asking about it?



But his legacy lives on! Just think of how many murals of Iron Man there are all over the world in _Spider-Man: Far From Home_.

I am coming around to the idea that the watch isn't Tony's, but I reckon it will still turn out to be Stark tech.



billd91 said:


> While not explicit, they‘re pretty strongly implying it’s Natasha whom he didn’t shoot.



Clint: "It's about the time I met someone ... I just had this feeling that she wanted out. Turns out I was right."
Kate: "You mean Natasha?"
Clint (nodding): "Yeah."

Seems pretty explicit to me. (@Stalker0)

That convo comes right after Clint is teaching Kate to hit the TV with that little coin-like decoration. She leaps over the couch, they clink glasses, then she asks what the best shot he ever took was. He replies it was the one he didn't take.

They don't talk about the watch until Kate is actually in Maya's apartment looking for it. But yes, it would appear that whoever the watch belongs to is still alive, since the convo goes like this:

Clint: "Belongs to someone I used to work with."
Kate: "Is that the whole story, Clint?"
Clint: "They've been out of the game a long time, but their identity's still attached to that watch."
Kate: "Huh. And if the Tracksuits find out about it?"
Clint: "It would blow their cover. Goodbye, friend."


So yeah, not Tony's watch. Could be Laura's, I guess. I'm now thinking it's someone new, though. This could be a great way to introduce / tease a new superhero.


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## billd91 (Dec 9, 2021)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> My thoughts are on Simon Williams AKA Wonderman. I remember back when WandaVision was still new and there were these behind-the-scenes interviews. In one of them, there are a bunch of storyboards in the background that are blurred out, but not quite enough to prevent seeing that one of them was of Wonderman. And since he has a history with both the Avengers and Kang, he may first show up in a Disney+ show before being in the movies.



I'm a fan of Wonder Man, in no small part because he dies and comes back. And that event haunts him for years thereafter. It made for an interesting character. Without that, we'll have to see what they do with him.
Bringing him in with a Hawkeye connection would be a little weird compared to his original Stark rivalry, though. It would be a better match if we find that Jarvis's personality is partly based on Simon because of how that then translates into Vision's personality. I'd more expect him to appear via Dr. Strange and the Multiverse of Madness as someone attracted to Wanda.


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## Tonguez (Dec 10, 2021)

pukunui said:


> But his legacy lives on! Just think of how many murals of Iron Man there are all over the world in Spider-Man: Far From Home.
> 
> I am coming around to the idea that the watch isn't Tony's, but I reckon it will still turn out to be Stark tech.



Oh its definitely Stark tech, remember in the Spiderman movie (vs Vulture) they had a consignment of Stark/Chitauri tech being transported to the Avengers compound to be destoryed. I wouldnt be suprised that the watch was suppose to be part of such a shipment that got stolen (maybe even by Vultures crew)


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## Ryujin (Dec 10, 2021)

billd91 said:


> I'm a fan of Wonder Man, in no small part because he dies and comes back. And that event haunts him for years thereafter. It made for an interesting character. Without that, we'll have to see what they do with him.
> Bringing him in with a Hawkeye connection would be a little weird compared to his original Stark rivalry, though. It would be a better match if we find that Jarvis's personality is partly based on Simon because of how that then translates into Vision's personality. I'd more expect him to appear via Dr. Strange and the Multiverse of Madness as someone attracted to Wanda.



I was a fan of Wonder Man because of the way that he used that rocket belt that Stark (?) gave him, ie "poorly."


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## pukunui (Dec 10, 2021)

Did you guys catch the flipped joke about boomerang arrows? In the comics, it was Clint trying to sell Kate on them "because they come back". In this, it was Kate trying to sell the idea to Clint. Nice little nod for the comics fans.







Perhaps we'll see something similar to this in one of the remaining episodes:


Spoiler


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## Tonguez (Dec 10, 2021)

Tonguez said:


> Oh its definitely Stark tech, remember in the Spiderman movie (vs Vulture) they had a consignment of Stark/Chitauri tech being transported to the Avengers compound to be destoryed. I wouldnt be suprised that the watch was suppose to be part of such a shipment that got stolen (maybe even by Vultures crew)



Actually this has triggered another thought - Armor Wars is coming out next year, apparently featuring Warmachine recovering rogue Starktech. The watch could be a set up for that - and we come full circle, its Tonys watch lol


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## Ryujin (Dec 10, 2021)

I'm beginning to root for the idea that the watch is just a standard McGuffin and all of this theorizing we're doing is a pure waste of electrons.


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## MarkB (Dec 10, 2021)

pukunui said:


> Did you guys catch the flipped joke about boomerang arrows? In the comics, it was Clint trying to sell Kate on them "because they come back". In this, it was Kate trying to sell the idea to Clint. Nice little nod for the comics fans.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Wow, Hawkeye's first name looks so much riskier when it's written in blocky, close-packed comic text.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Dec 10, 2021)

Ryujin said:


> I'm beginning to root for the idea that the watch is just a standard McGuffin and all of this theorizing we're doing is a pure waste of electrons.




Oh, it has a meaning and purpose, we just don't know what yet. I am pretty sure everything that Marvel has tossed into one of the series has not been there just to be useless. Sure, they do put in a lot of easter eggs, some that viewers thought were more important than they turned out to be, but the watch is not one of those.


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## pukunui (Dec 10, 2021)

MarkB said:


> Wow, Hawkeye's first name looks so much riskier when it's written in blocky, close-packed comic text.



EDIT: Never mind. I see it now.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Dec 10, 2021)

Two other notes. First, not to gender stereotype, but that is a classic, masculine-style watch, and if it belongs to someone inactive for a long time, it most likely belongs to a male former Avenger?

Second, since Agents of SHIELD is not part of the MCU canon, what happened with Mockingbird there does not count, and in the comics Mockingbird and Hawkeye were married for a while. Maybe Marvel is doing another of their MCU mashups and Laura Barton is a retired Mockingbird and the Bobbi Morse version does not exist.


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## Ryujin (Dec 10, 2021)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Two other notes. First, not to gender stereotype, but that is a classic, masculine-style watch, and if it belongs to someone inactive for a long time, it most likely belongs to a male former Avenger?
> 
> Second, since Agents of SHIELD is not part of the MCU canon, what happened with Mockingbird there does not count, and in the comics Mockingbird and Hawkeye were married for a while. Maybe Marvel is doing another of their MCU mashups and Laura Barton is a retired Mockingbird and the Bobbi Morse version does not exist.



At least one Youtuber identified it as a specific model of woman's Rolex watch.


----------



## Davies (Dec 10, 2021)

Ryujin said:


> I'm beginning to root for the idea that the watch is just a standard McGuffin and all of this theorizing we're doing is a pure waste of electrons.



Plausible, and they've already done something similar with Jimmy Wong's witness in _WandaVision._


----------



## pukunui (Dec 10, 2021)

Davies said:


> Plausible, and they've already done something similar with Jimmy Wong's witness in _WandaVision._



True. We never did find out who his witness was, did we?


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Dec 10, 2021)

Ryujin said:


> At least one Youtuber identified it as a specific model of woman's Rolex watch.




That may be only because Marvel decided to use a new watch as a prop, which if they did that, rather than using a more vintage watch from the 80's or 90's that it probably comes from, is a slip-up.


----------



## darjr (Dec 10, 2021)

Sorry! Apologies if this has been posted! Avoiding spoilers here. Excuse me. Ope. Excuse me.


----------



## Thomas Shey (Dec 10, 2021)

Staffan said:


> I really hope they aren't going to turn Laura Barton into Mockingbird. We've already seen Bobbi Morse in the MCU, or at least adjacent to it in Agents of SHIELD (and she was around in season 2, when they were still connected).
> 
> That said, I'd be super-impressed if the watch was connected to *that* version of the character though.




 I wouldn't hold your breath for _anything_ from AoS to carry forward.


----------



## Tonguez (Dec 10, 2021)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> That may be only because Marvel decided to use a new watch as a prop, which if they did that, rather than using a more vintage watch from the 80's or 90's that it probably comes from, is a slip-up.



you really think Marvel is going to slip up on their central Mcguffin?


----------



## Staffan (Dec 10, 2021)

Thomas Shey said:


> I wouldn't hold your breath for _anything_ from AoS to carry forward.



Perhaps. The show was connected to the mainstream MCU through at least season 2 though (the Helicarrier Fury showed up with at the end of Age of Ultron was built under Coulson's supervision), and Bobbie Morse showed up in season 2. So there's at least hope, even if I'm not holding my breath.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Dec 10, 2021)

Staffan said:


> Perhaps. The show was connected to the mainstream MCU through at least season 2 though (the Helicarrier Fury showed up with at the end of Age of Ultron was built under Coulson's supervision), and Bobbie Morse showed up in season 2. So there's at least hope, even if I'm not holding my breath.




Would have to find the quote, but pretty sure Feige said nothing from any TV show from before D+ was MCU canon.


----------



## Bolares (Dec 10, 2021)

There was a nice mirror for Clint and natasha's story in the final battle of the episode. Kate is aiming the bow at yelena, and chooses not to shoot her, letting her escape. Maybe they will form a bond latter in the MCU.


----------



## MarkB (Dec 10, 2021)

Bolares said:


> There was a nice mirror for Clint and natasha's story in the final battle of the episode. Kate is aiming the bow at yelena, and chooses not to shoot her, letting her escape. Maybe they will form a bond latter in the MCU.



To a very small extent perhaps, but Kate isn't a trained killer and hasn't ever had to use deadly force, so it's not really all that equivalent.


----------



## Bolares (Dec 10, 2021)

MarkB said:


> To a very small extent perhaps, but Kate isn't a trained killer and hasn't ever had to use deadly force, so it's not really all that equivalent.



But she had just shot Maya 5 seconds before that, without hesitating. I know it's not the same, but you can draw comparisons.


----------



## Blue (Dec 10, 2021)

pukunui said:


> Because Tony is the only one who's been shown with an interest in expensive watches. He was depicted selecting one from several options at least twice previously.



Dr. Strange also had a love of expensive watches prior to his accident.

Hank Pym has already been introduced through a trick arrow and easily could have taste for expensive watches.  It might even be a size regulator.  He would fit the description of someone long out of it.

The fact that Laura Burton chose German to speak about it may be a clue - but if so I'm not catching who they mean.  Or that might just be a language she's fluent with in the comics that the children wouldn't know so it was just a bit of character building.

It could have been Fury.  Or Skree through Fury.

But another clue is that the TSM knew about it and were coming for JUST THAT WATCH.  And Clint & Laura thought it had been long destroyed.  That the TSM knew what was being sold at the auction is easy - probably among "that element" what was up for sale was distributed.  But that they recognized the value of it while potentially others did not is important.


----------



## Cadence (Dec 10, 2021)

Blue said:


> Dr. Strange also had a love of expensive watches prior to his accident.
> 
> Hank Pym has already been introduced through a trick arrow and easily could have taste for expensive watches.  It might even be a size regulator.  He would fit the description of someone long out of it.




Ooh.  I would love for it to be (ex Shield agent) Janet van Dyne's watch...

[Although I don't see any way that nicely fits in.]

Would like for Agents of Shield to not be apocryphal (apparently).  Must be some characters in that it could go with.


----------



## trappedslider (Dec 10, 2021)

Could have been Mockingbird


----------



## Ryujin (Dec 10, 2021)

Bolares said:


> But she had just shot Maya 5 seconds before that, without hesitating. I know it's not the same, but you can draw comparisons.



That was a crit on the intimidate check


----------



## BRayne (Dec 10, 2021)

Bolares said:


> But she had just shot Maya 5 seconds before that, without hesitating. I know it's not the same, but you can draw comparisons.



Also purely from a storytelling perspective, you're not gonna have a story told about how Hawkeye (Clint) chose not to shoot Black Widow (Natasha), and then later in the same episode put so much focus on Hawkeye (Kate) choosing not to shoot Black Widow (Yelena) and not have it mean something.


----------



## Herschel (Dec 11, 2021)

Blue said:


> Dr. Strange also had a love of expensive watches prior to his accident.
> 
> Hank Pym has already been introduced through a trick arrow and easily could have taste for expensive watches.  It might even be a size regulator.  He would fit the description of someone long out of it.
> 
> ...



I'm wondering if it's Doctor Zola's. He's been "out of the game" of being human a long time, but it may tie to his consciousness. The German would kind of tie it in, too.


----------



## Tonguez (Dec 11, 2021)

Herschel said:


> I'm wondering if it's Doctor Zola's. He's been "out of the game" of being human a long time, but it may tie to his consciousness. The German would kind of tie it in, too.



Thats a really good theory too, iirc Zola died in the 70s? so likely before Clint joined SHIELD - still a mystery as to Lauras association


----------



## MarkB (Dec 11, 2021)

Tonguez said:


> Thats a really good theory too, iirc Zola died in the 70s? so likely before Clint joined SHIELD - still a mystery as to Lauras association



I'm not sure why they'd be concerned about revelations relating to Zola, though. Aside from the fact that he wasn't much of a friend, everything relating to Hydra and Zola was already released into the wild by Natasha at the end of Winter Soldier.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Dec 11, 2021)

Herschel said:


> I'm wondering if it's Doctor Zola's. He's been "out of the game" of being human a long time, but it may tie to his consciousness. The German would kind of tie it in, too.



Why would Zola's watch contain encrypted information on Clint Barton's family?

And if we are being I don't believe that model watch was made before Zola died.


----------



## Herschel (Dec 11, 2021)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Why would Zola's watch contain encrypted information on Clint Barton's family?
> 
> And if we are being I don't believe that model watch was made before Zola died.



Zola was in the machine and had access to a lot of information likely hidden from others and may have "found" info on Fury setting up the "safehouse" for Clint's family, among other assets and agents. I don't examine the age of the watch, etc. just had an idea based on info we have.


----------



## Ryujin (Dec 11, 2021)

Herschel said:


> Zola was in the machine and had access to a lot of information likely hidden from others and may have "found" info on Fury setting up the "safehouse" for Clint's family, among other assets and agents. I don't examine the age of the watch, etc. just had an idea based on info we have.



Based on the tech at the time that Zola was digitized, his whole being could be stored in that watch now.


----------



## billd91 (Dec 11, 2021)

Blue said:


> But another clue is that the TSM knew about it and were coming for JUST THAT WATCH.  And Clint & Laura thought it had been long destroyed.  That the TSM knew what was being sold at the auction is easy - probably among "that element" what was up for sale was distributed.  But that they recognized the value of it while potentially others did not is important.



Yep, so it's probably going to be related the TSM or Kingpin or Sloan Limited (and thus Jacques Duquesne) or something directly connected to them and maybe Bishop Security.


----------



## pukunui (Dec 15, 2021)

Yelena is so funny in this episode!

People were right about Kingpin!

I knew Kate’s mom was up to no good!


----------



## Older Beholder (Dec 15, 2021)

pukunui said:


> Yelena is so funny in this episode!



Florence Pugh owns every scene she is in.


----------



## pukunui (Dec 15, 2021)

The Lizard Wizard said:


> Florence Pugh owns every scene she is in.



Absolutely!


----------



## Tonguez (Dec 15, 2021)

The Lizard Wizard said:


> Florence Pugh owns every scene she is in.



ae, I'm defintely looking forward to her taking on the role in future shows and movies, she was convincingly terrifying when having a nice 'girl talk' with Kate Bishop.

Not sure what the logic of Clint wearing the Ronin suit to visit Echo was, but it was a nice sequence.

While its good we finally get the reveal at the Big Man, it was a bit of a cop out to make it a still frame!! - but at least we get to see him next week (hopefully)


----------



## MarkB (Dec 15, 2021)

Tonguez said:


> Not sure what the logic of Clint wearing the Ronin suit to visit Echo was, but it was a nice sequence.



It seemed pretty clear. He wanted to make sure she knew it was him who'd killed her father, so that she didn't keep chasing any leads to anyone else, such as Kate.


----------



## Stalker0 (Dec 15, 2021)

Tonguez said:


> While its good we finally get the reveal at the Big Man, it was a bit of a cop out to make it a still frame!!



Many Bothans died, to bring us this still frame.


----------



## Stalker0 (Dec 15, 2021)

Loved the Blip scene, a great way to show just how mindbendingly freaky and fast it was. Literally you blink and its 5 years gone by, there are soooo many stories that can written on that alone.

I am enjoying that while Yelena is definately on the hunt, she doesn't seem to be doing it blindly. She gave the warning to Kate to back off, but clearing she was digging in for understanding with Clint. She then dug in on the person who hired her because she's not taking all this at face value.

Now what is a little confusing is....why did Yelena need to get hired in the first place? Last we left her she had been told Clint killed her sister, and she was "off for revenge". Did Yelena decide to go about her business, but when a "hit" when out on Clint on the "assassin webs or whatever", she decided to grab it?


----------



## Rabulias (Dec 15, 2021)

Stalker0 said:


> Now what is a little confusing is....why did Yelena need to get hired in the first place? Last we left her she had been told Clint killed her sister, and she was "off for revenge". Did Yelena decide to go about her business, but when a "hit" when out on Clint on the "assassin webs or whatever", she decided to grab it?



My thinking is that Val is acting as a broker for hit jobs, and brought this one to Yelena. I said before in this thread that the last end credits scene in _Black Widow_ took place shortly before _Hawkeye_; now I believe that it took place _during_ _Hawkeye,_ most likely after the mysterious phone call Eleanor made during episode 4.


----------



## MarkB (Dec 15, 2021)

Stalker0 said:


> Loved the Blip scene, a great way to show just how mindbendingly freaky and fast it was. Literally you blink and its 5 years gone by, there are soooo many stories that can written on that alone.
> 
> I am enjoying that while Yelena is definately on the hunt, she doesn't seem to be doing it blindly. She gave the warning to Kate to back off, but clearing she was digging in for understanding with Clint. She then dug in on the person who hired her because she's not taking all this at face value.
> 
> Now what is a little confusing is....why did Yelena need to get hired in the first place? Last we left her she had been told Clint killed her sister, and she was "off for revenge". Did Yelena decide to go about her business, but when a "hit" when out on Clint on the "assassin webs or whatever", she decided to grab it?



Or was she targeted by someone who knew that she had a personal stake in the matter, and simultaneously given information on where to find Clint and an assignment to kill him? It's surely no coincidence that we also have Clint in this episode talking about how he was effectively aimed at Maya's father as a weapon.

The other interesting question is when Yelena was contracted. Was it after Kate's mother found out that Kate was working with Clint, or before?


----------



## Rune (Dec 15, 2021)

This episode raises a couple of questions for me.

First: Is Val connected to Kingpin, or is this just a case where Kate’s mom has connections with many bad people who are not necessarily connected themselves?

Second: I’m pretty sure the pic Val showed Yelena of Clint has him in the Ronin outfit. If so, does this mean Kate’s mom could know Clint was Ronin through Val? And if so, does _that_ mean Kingpin could know it through either of them?


----------



## Stalker0 (Dec 15, 2021)

Rabulias said:


> My thinking is that Val is acting as a broker for hit jobs, and brought this one to Yelena. I said before in this thread that the last end credits scene in _Black Widow_ took place shortly before _Hawkeye_; now I believe that it took place _during_ _Hawkeye,_ most likely after the mysterious phone call Eleanor made during episode 4.



Ah so your thinking the timeline went like this:

Elenor reaches out to her "hit people", which includes Val
Val has the perfect assassin in Yelena, goes to get her.
Yelena is at Nat's grave, Val and Nat have the chat from the BW movie.
Yelena is now activated and goes after Clint.

I could see that. Its all pretty fast, but then again I would expect super assassins to work extremely quickly (and they have the personal jets and the like to get where they need to go in hours if needed), so I could buy it.


----------



## Rabulias (Dec 15, 2021)

Stalker0 said:


> Ah so your thinking the timeline went like this:
> 
> Elenor reaches out to her "hit people", which includes Val
> Val has the perfect assassin in Yelena, goes to get her.
> ...



Yes, that's how I see it pretty much at this point. More details may come in the next episode to further refine the timing.


Stalker0 said:


> I could see that. Its all pretty fast, but then again I would expect super assassins to work extremely quickly (and they have the personal jets and the like to get where they need to go in hours if needed), so I could buy it.



Keep in mind that Natasha's grave is in Ohio; it would not take too long to get to New York City, especially if private aircraft are available. A private jet makes it even faster.


----------



## Tonguez (Dec 15, 2021)

Rune said:


> Second: I’m pretty sure the pic Val showed Yelena of Clint has him in the Ronin outfit. If so, does this mean Kate’s mom could know Clint was Ronin through Val? And if so, does _that_ mean Kingpin could know it through either of them?




I wouldnt be suprised if it was Kates mother who provided the pic of Ronin to Val - she owns a security company with cameras around the city. The implication that Kingpin knows the identity of Ronin too is something I hadnt considered, its a big peice of leverage for Kingpin, especially if he can link back to Clints family too. 


Rabulias said:


> Yes, that's how I see it pretty much at this point. More details may come in the next episode to further refine the timing.
> 
> Keep in mind that Natasha's grave is in Ohio; it would not take too long to get to New York City, especially if private aircraft are available. A private jet makes it even faster.



oh I hadnt realised her grave was in Ohio, that is close enough for Yelena to make the trip in a single day, so yeah the revised timeline is plausible, even if it is tight.


----------



## pukunui (Dec 15, 2021)

The issue I have is that it was most definitely not Christmas time in the BW scene. It was clearly summer in Ohio.


----------



## Thomas Shey (Dec 15, 2021)

Stalker0 said:


> Loved the Blip scene, a great way to show just how mindbendingly freaky and fast it was. Literally you blink and its 5 years gone by, there are soooo many stories that can written on that alone.




Yeah.  We'd seen Monica Rambeax blip back in, but not the transition out and in.  Like I described it, you might as well have time traveled.



Stalker0 said:


> I am enjoying that while Yelena is definately on the hunt, she doesn't seem to be doing it blindly. She gave the warning to Kate to back off, but clearing she was digging in for understanding with Clint. She then dug in on the person who hired her because she's not taking all this at face value.
> 
> Now what is a little confusing is....why did Yelena need to get hired in the first place? Last we left her she had been told Clint killed her sister, and she was "off for revenge". Did Yelena decide to go about her business, but when a "hit" when out on Clint on the "assassin webs or whatever", she decided to grab it?




That would be my assumption.   Either that, or Val fed her the task after setting her up to be willing to take it.  Which would bring up a lot of questions about Val...


----------



## MarkB (Dec 15, 2021)

EDIT: Sorry, wrong scene.


----------



## Thomas Shey (Dec 15, 2021)

I'm also more and more thinking my reading that Jacques is not actually a villain (or at least something more complicated) may be correct.


----------



## pukunui (Dec 15, 2021)

Thomas Shey said:


> I'm also more and more thinking my reading that Jacques is not actually a villain (or at least something more complicated) may be correct.



At the very least, he isn't the villain in this story.


----------



## Tonguez (Dec 15, 2021)

Thomas Shey said:


> I'm also more and more thinking my reading that Jacques is not actually a villain (or at least something more complicated) may be correct.



yeah he's a red herring (hence no swordfights) and a easter egg - he was Clints swordfighting teacher in the comics and an anti-hero. 
Tony Dalton has been great though and I'd love to see more of him in future.


----------



## pukunui (Dec 15, 2021)

I think I mentioned this previously, but I wonder if maybe Kingpin via Val hired Yelena to hunt down Clint/Ronin earlier in the year (e.g. in the summer) but it took until Eleanor's phone call to confirm that Clint is in NYC at Christmas for Yelena to be able to locate him.

That could work to explain the seasonal differences.


----------



## MarkB (Dec 15, 2021)

pukunui said:


> I think I mentioned this previously, but I wonder if maybe Kingpin via Val hired Yelena to hunt down Clint/Ronin earlier in the year (e.g. in the summer) but it took until Eleanor's phone call to confirm that Clint is in NYC at Christmas for Yelena to be able to locate him.
> 
> That could work to explain the seasonal differences.



Clint isn't exactly being invisible or maintaining a cover, so it's odd that it'd take that long to track him down.

And he was also thoroughly retired. What would have happened back in the summer to precipitate putting a hit out on him?


----------



## pukunui (Dec 15, 2021)

MarkB said:


> Clint isn't exactly being invisible or maintaining a cover, so it's odd that it'd take that long to track him down.



We don't know what he was or wasn't doing prior to visiting NYC at Christmas.



MarkB said:


> And he was also thoroughly retired. What would have happened back in the summer to precipitate putting a hit out on him?



I don't know. If the BW scene is meant to be concurrent with _Hawkeye_, then I guess I'll just have to accept that the seasonal difference is just a blooper. After all, we've been told that the _Hawkeye _showrunners begged Marvel to be allowed to include Yelena in their show, so it seems like when they made the BW scene, they may have originally had a different idea of how Yelena's confrontation with Clint would go down. 

Since Christmas is such an integral part of _Hawkeye_, we'll just have to ignore the fact that it was the "wrong" season during the BW scene.

It wouldn't be the first time such a goof made its way into the MCU timeline after all.


----------



## MoonSong (Dec 15, 2021)

Tonguez said:


> yeah he's a red herring (hence no swordfights) and a easter egg - he was Clints swordfighting teacher in the comics and an anti-hero.
> Tony Dalton has been great though and I'd love to see more of him in future.



Soo, you mean he wasn't affably evil and just affable? He is fantastic either way! 5/5 please keep him around!


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Dec 15, 2021)

pukunui said:


> We don't know what he was or wasn't doing prior to visiting NYC at Christmas.
> 
> 
> I don't know. If the BW scene is meant to be concurrent with _Hawkeye_, then I guess I'll just have to accept that the seasonal difference is just a blooper. After all, we've been told that the _Hawkeye _showrunners begged Marvel to be allowed to include Yelena in their show, so it seems like when they made the BW scene, they may have originally had a different idea of how Yelena's confrontation with Clint would go down.
> ...




It is mid-December and it was unseasonably warm today, in the 60's, in Ohio, so don't just assume the state should be covered in ice and snow in the show.


----------



## pukunui (Dec 15, 2021)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> It is mid-December and it was unseasonably warm today, in the 60's, in Ohio, so don't just assume the state should be covered in ice and snow in the show.



Are your trees still covered in leaves in mid-December?

Admittedly, Yelena is wearing long pants and what looks to be a warm jacket in the BW scene. It's the foliage that makes me think it's summer in that scene. If Ohio is anything like PA, the leaves would all be bare and there wouldn't be an abundance of long grasses and other greenery in late December, even if the temperature was unseasonably warm. (Unless it had been unseasonably warm for long enough that the plants all thought spring had sprung.)


----------



## Ryujin (Dec 15, 2021)

Thomas Shey said:


> I'm also more and more thinking my reading that Jacques is not actually a villain (or at least something more complicated) may be correct.



I get the feeling that he's a patsy.


----------



## Bolares (Dec 16, 2021)

This episode was great! Florence pugh ana Alaqua Fox steal the scene every time they appear. Alaqua is awesome in acting with facial expressions and body language, you can feel everything that is going through her head!


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Dec 16, 2021)

pukunui said:


> Are your trees still covered in leaves in mid-December?
> 
> Admittedly, Yelena is wearing long pants and what looks to be a warm jacket in the BW scene. It's the foliage that makes me think it's summer in that scene. If Ohio is anything like PA, the leaves would all be bare and there wouldn't be an abundance of long grasses and other greenery in late December, even if the temperature was unseasonably warm. (Unless it had been unseasonably warm for long enough that the plants all thought spring had sprung.)




That was the closest explanation I could find.   lol

Since BW was filmed a couple of years before work on Hawkeye even started, trying to make the seasons in the end-credit scene and the series mesh with any sense is highly unlikely. And I am definitely on board with the end-credit scene being supposed to happen during the series. It just makes the most sense plot-wise.


----------



## Cadence (Dec 16, 2021)

Ridiculous guess about the watch: Clint's wife is kingpin's daughter and the watch was a gift to her from him.


----------



## pukunui (Dec 16, 2021)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> That was the closest explanation I could find.   lol
> 
> Since BW was filmed a couple of years before work on Hawkeye even started, trying to make the seasons in the end-credit scene and the series mesh with any sense is highly unlikely. And I am definitely on board with the end-credit scene being supposed to happen during the series. It just makes the most sense plot-wise.



Agreed.

I presume that _Hawkeye _takes place shortly after _Spider-Man: No Way Home_, so I expect Yelena will be a bit disappointed that the “new and improved” Statue of Liberty has been damaged.


----------



## Zaukrie (Dec 16, 2021)

Another great episode.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Dec 16, 2021)

pukunui said:


> I presume that _Hawkeye _takes place shortly after _Spider-Man: No Way Home_, so I expect Yelena will be a bit disappointed that the “new and improved” Statue of Liberty has been damaged.




Hard to say. All I know for sure about the timeline is that No Way Home Far From Home is June/July 2024 and Hawkeye is Dec 2025, so there is about a year and a half for a lot of stuff to happen/fit into the timeline.

Edited for thinking of the right film, but typing the wrong title.   lol


----------



## trappedslider (Dec 16, 2021)

Yelena is now my new favorite person in the MCU 



Spoiler


----------



## Janx (Dec 16, 2021)

pukunui said:


> Are your trees still covered in leaves in mid-December?



um...

Welcome to Texas.

Yes, leaves are falling. But I STILL have leaves on some of my trees.

That's not even counting the live oak, which keeps its leaves.


----------



## Janx (Dec 16, 2021)

I think just as Kate has been trying to boost Clint's public perception; the show has boosted Hawkeye's character in the MCU to us.

Also, Yelena rocks.


----------



## trappedslider (Dec 16, 2021)

Marvel Confirms Hawkeye Is Set AFTER Spider-Man: No Way Home
					

Hawkeye's setting reveals its timeline placement.




					screenrant.com


----------



## Rune (Dec 16, 2021)

Janx said:


> I think just as Kate has been trying to boost Clint's public perception; the show has boosted Hawkeye's character in the MCU to us.
> 
> Also, Yelena rocks.



Speak for yourself! I’ve _always_ recognized Hawkeye as the MVP of the MCU Avengers!


----------



## hawkeyefan (Dec 16, 2021)

Rune said:


> Speak for yourself! I’ve _always_ recognized Hawkeye as the MVP of the MCU Avengers!




He’s the key to victory every time.


----------



## John R Davis (Dec 16, 2021)

Yelena is trying to be a bit to much like Villanelle ( and doesn't quite have the Jodie Cromer touch). IMO


----------



## Morrus (Dec 16, 2021)

John R Davis said:


> Yelena is trying to be a bit to much like Villanelle ( and doesn't quite have the Jodie Cromer touch). IMO



Killing Eve is _so_ good. And yeah, Jodie Comer’s Villanelle is A-class.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Dec 16, 2021)

Morrus said:


> Killing Eve is _so_ good. And yeah, Jodie Comer’s Villanelle is A-class.




Since I don't watch that show, every time I see that name, I wonder why people are spelling Vanille's name wrong. She is one of the main characters from Final Fantasy 13.


----------



## Morrus (Dec 16, 2021)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Since I don't watch that show,



I suggest you rectify that immediately!


----------



## Arilyn (Dec 16, 2021)

hawkeyefan said:


> He’s the key to victory every time.



Exactly.


----------



## Ryujin (Dec 16, 2021)

hawkeyefan said:


> He’s the key to victory every time.



Never under estimate the importance of a good "spotter."


----------



## Rabulias (Dec 16, 2021)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Hard to say. All I know for sure about the timeline is that No Way Home Far From Home is June/July 2024 and Hawkeye is Dec 2025, so there is about a year and a half for a lot of stuff to happen/fit into the timeline.



I have not seen _Spider-Man No Way Home _yet, but judging from the ending of _Spider-Man Far From Home_ and the Halloween decorations in the trailer, I believe _Spider-Man No Way Home _is set sometime in/around/between July and November 2024.

_Hawkeye _is set in December 2024. In episode 5, there is a Christmas party invitation on Kate's corkboard that has 2024 on it.


----------



## Bolares (Dec 16, 2021)

Rabulias said:


> I have not seen _Spider-Man No Way Home _yet, but judging from the ending of _Spider-Man Far From Home_ and the Halloween decorations in the trailer, I believe _Spider-Man No Way Home _is set sometime in/around/between July and November 2024.
> 
> _Hawkeye _is set in December 2024. In episode 5, there is a Christmas party invitation on Kate's corkboard that has 2024 on it.



I've seen a headline that Hawkeye is after No way home, but didn't click on it because I'm terrified of spiderman spoilers.


----------



## pukunui (Dec 16, 2021)

Episode 5 really confused me re: timing because the flashback started in 2018 and then indicated it was "5 years later" (i.e. 2023) after Yelena un-snapped ... but then didn't give any indication as to how much time had passed between that point and the "current day" in NYC.


----------



## Bolares (Dec 16, 2021)

pukunui said:


> Episode 5 really confused me re: timing because the flashback started in 2018 and then indicated it was "5 years later" (i.e. 2023) after Yelena un-snapped ... but then didn't give any indication as to how much time had passed between that point and the "current day" in NYC.



I understood the 5 years later as showing the 5 years between infinity war and endgame, not between endgame and hawkeye.


----------



## trappedslider (Dec 16, 2021)

Bolares said:


> I've seen a headline that Hawkeye is after No way home, but didn't click on it because I'm terrified of spiderman spoilers.



The article i linked to doesn't have any spoilers for the movie, only episode 5 of Hawkeye


----------



## Tonguez (Dec 16, 2021)

Rabulias said:


> I have not seen _Spider-Man No Way Home _yet, but judging from the ending of _Spider-Man Far From Home_ and the Halloween decorations in the trailer, I believe _Spider-Man No Way Home _is set sometime in/around/between July and November 2024.
> 
> _Hawkeye _is set in December 2024. In episode 5, there is a Christmas party invitation on Kate's corkboard that has 2024 on it.



Yeah Spiderman Far From Home happened roughly between June 20th, 2024, and July 10th, 2024, so the happenings in the new Spiderman starts mid-late July and might overlap with Hawkeye (the Rogers Musical sign is seen in a Spiderman trailer too)

Hawkeye starts December 19 2024


----------



## Bolares (Dec 16, 2021)

trappedslider said:


> The article i linked to doesn't have any spoilers for the movie, only episode 5 of Hawkeye



Oh, I saw it here, d'uh


----------



## Rune (Dec 16, 2021)

Ryujin said:


> Never under estimate the importance of a good "spotter."



Hawkeye hands out so many assists between his trick shots, they must be bonus actions. On top of that, he’s fully capable of inspiring someone back into a fight (as seen in Age of Ultron).

Hawkeye is the party cleric, and he’s loaded up on buff spells.

(Or, in 4e, probably a Ranger/Warlord hybrid.)


----------



## Ryujin (Dec 16, 2021)

Rune said:


> Hawkeye hands out so many assists between his trick shots, they must be bonus actions. On top of that, he’s fully capable of inspiring someone back into a fight (as seen in Age of Ultron).
> 
> Hawkeye is the party cleric, and he’s loaded up on buff spells.
> 
> (Or, in 4e, probably a Ranger/Warlord hybrid.)



At the risk of censure, perhaps "Bardic Inspiration" 

My Arcane Archers frequently start as Bards.


----------



## fba827 (Dec 16, 2021)

I may have missed something, but around episode 3 or 4, when Clint is talking to his wife Laura on the phone.  He says something like ‘more trouble to take care of’ and she immediately goes to ‘you don’t think this has anything to do with the watch?’
Did I miss something as to why, out of everything in the marvel universe that Clint could possibly be dealing with , that the watch would be the item she zeros in to ask about?

That one question aside, I’m enjoying this series quite a bit.


----------



## Rune (Dec 16, 2021)

fba827 said:


> I may have missed something, but around episode 3 or 4, when Clint is talking to his wife Laura on the phone.  He says something like ‘more trouble to take care of’ and she immediately goes to ‘you don’t think this has anything to do with the watch?’
> Did I miss something as to why, out of everything in the marvel universe that Clint could possibly be dealing with , that the watch would be the item she zeros in to ask about?
> 
> That one question aside, I’m enjoying this series quite a bit.



According to Clint, that watch could blow the cover of (and lead to the death of) an old friend. 

I’ve heard speculation that it could be Coulson, which I’m inclined to see as possible.


----------



## Rune (Dec 16, 2021)

Ryujin said:


> At the risk of censure, perhaps "Bardic Inspiration"
> 
> My Arcane Archers frequently start as Bards.



If so, he’d be the only bard in fiction who doesn’t like being the center of attention. Even Gandalf is less reserved.


----------



## pukunui (Dec 16, 2021)

Ryujin said:


> My Arcane Archers frequently start as Bards.



I'd be interested in hearing more about that, but maybe not in this thread ...


----------



## Thomas Shey (Dec 16, 2021)

fba827 said:


> I may have missed something, but around episode 3 or 4, when Clint is talking to his wife Laura on the phone.  He says something like ‘more trouble to take care of’ and she immediately goes to ‘you don’t think this has anything to do with the watch?’
> Did I miss something as to why, out of everything in the marvel universe that Clint could possibly be dealing with , that the watch would be the item she zeros in to ask about?




That's one of the mysteries we expect to be resolved in the final episode.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Dec 16, 2021)

Tonguez said:


> Yeah Spiderman Far From Home happened roughly between June 20th, 2024, and July 10th, 2024, so the happenings in the new Spiderman starts mid-late July and might overlap with Hawkeye (the Rogers Musical sign is seen in a Spiderman trailer too)
> 
> Hawkeye starts December 19 2024




Except one of the directors or producers of Hawkeye specifically said the show is two years after Endgame. Endgame is 2023, so that makes Hawkeye in 2025. If the person misspoke or was misquoted, i have never seen a correction issued. Or they did a stupid rounding up thing, where a year and a half magically becomes two years.


----------



## MarkB (Dec 16, 2021)

fba827 said:


> I may have missed something, but around episode 3 or 4, when Clint is talking to his wife Laura on the phone.  He says something like ‘more trouble to take care of’ and she immediately goes to ‘you don’t think this has anything to do with the watch?’
> Did I miss something as to why, out of everything in the marvel universe that Clint could possibly be dealing with , that the watch would be the item she zeros in to ask about?
> 
> That one question aside, I’m enjoying this series quite a bit.



I think they'd established that the Ronin gear was part of an auction of items from the Avengers compound, and that's how they made the connection to the Rolex.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Dec 16, 2021)

MarkB said:


> I think they'd established that the Ronin gear was part of an auction of items from the Avengers compound, and that's how they made the connection to the Rolex.




Except Clint thought it had been destroyed already. Does that mean she somehow knew it had not been and somehow knew to ask about it? Has Clint been married to a Skrull or something?


----------



## Rune (Dec 16, 2021)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Except Clint thought it had been destroyed already. Does that mean she somehow knew it had not been and somehow knew to ask about it? Has Clint been married to a Skrull or something?



She explains the reason she’s concerned in that very conversation: they both thought the Ronin suit was destroyed, too. If the one survived (and found its way to the black market), the other might also have.


----------



## Stalker0 (Dec 16, 2021)

Rune said:


> Hawkeye is the party cleric, and he’s loaded up on buff spells.



Nah, low HP (in comparison to the rest of the team), no armor, and shoots arrows that never miss.

Wizard with magic missile all the way!


----------



## billd91 (Dec 16, 2021)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Except Clint thought it had been destroyed already. Does that mean she somehow knew it had not been and somehow knew to ask about it? Has Clint been married to a Skrull or something?



I think it's clear she didn't know it hadn't been destroyed. Clint thought that the Ronin gear had been destroyed too... but they turned up at the black market auction. So it stands to reason other material thought destroyed might turn up too.


----------



## Rune (Dec 16, 2021)

Stalker0 said:


> Nah, low HP (in comparison to the rest of the team), no armor, and shoots arrows that never miss.
> 
> Wizard with magic missile all the way!



Loaded up with buff spells. I’d buy that. He even has a spellbook of sorts (assortment of trick arrows).


----------



## Ryujin (Dec 16, 2021)

pukunui said:


> I'd be interested in hearing more about that, but maybe not in this thread ...



Not much to talk about, but it is vaguely related to this thread. I like characters in fiction that are more skill based; Hawkeye, Batman, even to some extent Captain America because he's a "super soldier", but still relies heavily on physical skill. Want to make a guy with Hawkeye-like abilities? In 3.0/3.5/Pathfinder you take a few levels of Fighter, specializing in short composite bow, then switch to Bard until you've got the prereqs for Arcane Archer. BOOM! Trick arrows. And a "skill monkey" to top it off.


----------



## Thomas Shey (Dec 17, 2021)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Except Clint thought it had been destroyed already. Does that mean she somehow knew it had not been and somehow knew to ask about it? Has Clint been married to a Skrull or something?




The easy answer is_ it was in the Avengers Compound_.  You notice that got a pretty good shellacking in Endgame.  It wasn't unreasonable to assume most any random object was destroyed.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Dec 17, 2021)

Thomas Shey said:


> The easy answer is_ it was in the Avengers Compound_.  You notice that got a pretty good shellacking in Endgame.  It wasn't unreasonable to assume most any random object was destroyed.




Maybe I am just hearing the conversation differently. There were hundreds, if not thousands, of things in the Avengers tower that could have been destroyed, or not destroyed and could cause trouble in the wrong hands. And to me, it sounds like Clint thought the watch was destroyed at some point before the Tower was trashed. I just hope that episode 6 answers why the Track Suits were specifically after that watch and how they knew it would be in the auction. It was recovered from Maya's apartment. Why did she want them to find it? Is she trying to track down the former owner? Or was it a request from the Kingpin to find it and she had just not turned it over to him yet?

I also see all the usual Twitter idiocy trying to claim now that D'Onofrio and Cox are the MCU versions of Kingpin and Daredevil, that all the Netflix series are also MCU canon, which is still not true as directly stated by Feige. Now, Murdoch always kept his Daredevil identity separate, and with the red face on the watch, I am now thinking that the MCU version of Daredevil is retired and something about the watch would let Kingpin connect Murdoch and Daredevil as the same person. And this is what brings him out of superhero retirement and into the MCU as an active character. This also fits with No Way Home coming before Hawkeye in the timeline, if the rumors about Cox appearing only as Murdoch in the movie are true. I know the movie is out tonight, but I hope the spoilers for it will be kept under control. This rumor is the only one I want to know the truth to before I see the movie.   lol


----------



## Thomas Shey (Dec 17, 2021)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Maybe I am just hearing the conversation differently. There were hundreds, if not thousands, of things in the Avengers tower that could have been destroyed, or not destroyed and could cause trouble in the wrong hands.




And I suspect they expected _most_ of them were destroyed.  I mean, seriously, they were hit by orbital bombardment good enough to collapse things into the sub-basement.  Unless something was pretty tough or had some of the more human heroes Plot Armor, they expectation is reasonable that none of its around.


----------



## pukunui (Dec 17, 2021)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> This also fits with No Way Home coming before Hawkeye in the timeline, if the rumors about Cox appearing only as Murdoch in the movie are true. I know the movie is out tonight, but I hope the spoilers for it will be kept under control. This rumor is the only one I want to know the truth to before I see the movie.   lol





Spoiler



I haven't seen the Netflix _Daredevil _show. However, there is a scene in _No Way Home _where a blind man with rose-colored glasses is advising Peter, May, and Happy about how he can get them off the charges laid against them. Someone throws a brick through a window, and the lawyer catches it without even looking. Peter asks him how he did it, and he replies, "I'm a very good lawyer" or something along those lines.

I presume that is a cameo of the Daredevil character?


----------



## trappedslider (Dec 17, 2021)

pukunui said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Spoiler



yes, that is the same actor who did the show.


----------



## hawkeyefan (Dec 17, 2021)

It’s a watch recovered from the compoujd where time travel was invented.

Lot 268. Avengers issue 268.


----------



## Rabulias (Dec 17, 2021)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Except one of the directors or producers of Hawkeye specifically said the show is two years after Endgame. Endgame is 2023, so that makes Hawkeye in 2025. If the person misspoke or was misquoted, i have never seen a correction issued. Or they did a stupid rounding up thing, where a year and a half magically becomes two years.



Looks like 2025 was considered early on (and is the source for those early quotes about "two years after Endgame"), according to Rhys Thomas (director for some _Hawkeye _episodes):


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Dec 17, 2021)

Stalker0 said:


> Nah, low HP (in comparison to the rest of the team), no armor, and shoots arrows that never miss.
> 
> Wizard with magic missile all the way!



I have played this powerset in City of Heroes: Trick Arrow. Defender was the support class, equivalent to cleric.


----------



## pukunui (Dec 20, 2021)

Some people have suggested that the watch could belong to Daredevil. Question: since he is blind, what use would a regular watch be to him?


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Dec 20, 2021)

pukunui said:


> Some people have suggested that the watch could belong to Daredevil. Question: since he is blind, what use would a regular watch be to him?




If it is also Stark tech, as people are guessing, who knows what extra functions are built into it. Plus in the MCU, they may change how he became blind and the watch is from when his eyes still worked.


----------



## Bolares (Dec 20, 2021)

I think we're going a little "mephisto in wandavision" with the watch... All signs point to clint's family, the watch is how maya got their names.


----------



## Ryujin (Dec 20, 2021)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> If it is also Stark tech, as people are guessing, who knows what extra functions are built into it. Plus in the MCU, they may change how he became blind and the watch is from when his eyes still worked.



For all that we know it could well be Pepper's Rescue Armor Model 1, what with the nanotech that Stark had started to use.


----------



## pukunui (Dec 20, 2021)

Hopefully tomorrow's finale will provide a definitive answer and not just another tease!

(We just watched _Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings _on Disney+ last night, and now I want to know who or what is being summoned by the beacon embedded in the rings.)


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Dec 20, 2021)

Bolares said:


> I think we're going a little "mephisto in wandavision" with the watch... All signs point to clint's family, the watch is how maya got their names.



William of Occam is turning in his grave...


----------



## trappedslider (Dec 22, 2021)

Paul Farquhar said:


> I thought it answered it - it belonged to former agent Mrs Hawkeye.



and we have a winner!

The post-credit was a nice touch.


----------



## pukunui (Dec 22, 2021)

trappedslider said:


> and we have a winner!



Not what some people were expecting, but I guess that wraps it up nicely. I wonder if we'll ever find out more. It also looks like Jack really was a red herring. 



trappedslider said:


> The post-credit was a nice touch.



Ha ha! Yes. It was fun to see that in full.


So do we think that was the last we'll see of the big guy? I haven't seen _Daredevil_, but it seems like Kingpin had some supernatural strength and toughness. Could he have survived a bullet to the face? Will he return to plague Maya in _Echo_? Only time will tell, I guess!

I was very satisfied with Yelena and Clint's confrontation. That went exactly how I was hoping it would. I'd love to see them team up in the future (along with Kate) sometime.


----------



## trappedslider (Dec 22, 2021)

pukunui said:


> Not what some people were expecting, but I guess that wraps it up nicely. I wonder if we'll ever find out more. It also looks like Jack really was a red herring.
> 
> 
> Ha ha! Yes. It was fun to see that in full.
> ...



That was the second funniest thing from the episode Jack's sword-fighting heroic lol

It wasn't the FULL musical, but just the battle of new york  (I had hoped for a cameo of old cap sitting in the crowd watching)

He'll come back with an eye patch because of course!

And the funniest bit naturally goes to Yelena's interactions with Kate (again)


----------



## Ryujin (Dec 22, 2021)

Is it bad that I now really want to see "Rogers: The Musical"?


----------



## trappedslider (Dec 22, 2021)

Ryujin said:


> Is it bad that I now really want to see "Rogers: The Musical"?



With music by Lin right?


----------



## Cadence (Dec 22, 2021)

trappedslider said:


> It wasn't the FULL musical, but just the battle of new york  (I had hoped for a cameo of old cap sitting in the crowd watching)



I was really hoping they would show Yelena watching it (wondering what reaction would be on her face).


----------



## Cadence (Dec 22, 2021)

pukunui said:


> So do we think that was the last we'll see of the big guy? I haven't seen _Daredevil_, but it seems like Kingpin had some supernatural strength and toughness. Could he have survived a bullet to the face? Will he return to plague Maya in _Echo_? Only time will tell, I guess!




We never did see the shot...

Anyway, I had never seen the previous Kingpin appearances before.  Now I almost want to see "L&O: Birth of a Kingpin".



pukunui said:


> I was very satisfied with Yelena and Clint's confrontation. That went exactly how I was hoping it would. I'd love to see them team up in the future (along with Kate) sometime.



Amen!


----------



## Thomas Shey (Dec 22, 2021)

Unless I'm forgetting something from Daredevil (and to be fair, I never saw the last season), Fisk seemed at least borderline superhuman in a way he'd never seemed in the Netflix show.


----------



## Tonguez (Dec 22, 2021)

Thomas Shey said:


> Unless I'm forgetting something from Daredevil (and to be fair, I never saw the last season), Fisk seemed at least borderline superhuman in a way he'd never seemed in the Netflix show.



In the Comics Wilson Fisk has no 'superpowers' but is incredibly strong and durable, most of his bulk is muscle  and he's a skilled martial artist (including sumo wrestling). The Netflix FIsk emphasized his brutality and focus that made him inured to pain but was still 'realistic', whereas this version seems a bit too Disney villain, with the apparent invunerability to arrows and ugly floral shirt (Netflix Fisk was a sharp dresser who'd never wear that shirt) (edit: also remembered in Netflix his suits are armoured (Kevlar weave?), so maybe his floral shirt is armour and blocked Kates arrow?)

I don't think he's really dead though, it would be pointless for Disney to bring back DOnofrio just so they could kill him in his first outing - plus it was off screen so it didnt happen 

Other than that I did like the episode, Yelena Kates fight through the offices was fun, but really Kate should have been injured jumping out that window. Great to see the Trick Arrows being made.

I did like the Musical Number at the end but would have liked to see what Yelena did for Christmas too

 the Sheild Logo and Agent 19 imprint on the watch was a cop out, what kind of good Secret Agent wears a watch that advertises who their employer is?


----------



## Marc Radle (Dec 22, 2021)

Thomas Shey said:


> Unless I'm forgetting something from Daredevil (and to be fair, I never saw the last season), Fisk seemed at least borderline superhuman in a way he'd never seemed in the Netflix show.



Isn’t that more how he was in the comics? I recall covers showing him lifting a car to throw at someone, etc.


----------



## Thomas Shey (Dec 22, 2021)

Marc Radle said:


> Isn’t that more how he was in the comics? I recall covers showing him lifting a car to throw at someone, etc.




Like most comics characters, he's varied considerably dependent on writer.  My only real point was that Marvel seemed to have decided to turn him up a notch from the Netflix version.


----------



## Thomas Shey (Dec 22, 2021)

Tonguez said:


> the Sheild Logo and Agent 19 imprint on the watch was a cop out, what kind of good Secret Agent wears a watch that advertises who their employer is?




I'd guess it was a retirement gift.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Dec 22, 2021)

I have not poked around the spoiler articles and such yet, but I am betting there will be a lot of complaints about the watch or pointing out that in the early episodes the watch clearly looked like it had a reddish face, but the watch that Clint handed to Laura did not have that at all.


----------



## MarkB (Dec 22, 2021)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> I have not poked around the spoiler articles and such yet, but I am betting there will be a lot of complaints about the watch or pointing out that in the early episodes the watch clearly looked like it had a reddish face, but the watch that Clint handed to Laura did not have that at all.



It has a salmon-pink face in both shots. In the first one it just has some metallic reflections of red light.


----------



## MoonSong (Dec 22, 2021)

Ok, reactions.

The plot about a Dad wanting to get home for Christmas was painful to watch due to RL health complications with my own Dad. u_u Still a bit cathartic.(Similarly the Yelena/Clint scene at the end hits hard)

I love how Kate actually gets to grow into the role. Every scene with Kate and Yelena is very funny, particularly the elevator scene. 

The fighting choreography is very well done and spectacular enough.  Tony Dalton was having the time of his life during that final part. Having Jack recruited by the Larpers was madness.

I loved the musical in the post-credits. 

On the other hand, I would have wanted Fisk to live to fight another day. I feel his character was wasted, he only shows in the third act, without much in the way of characterization and gets put down like a dog. At least having more of him to develop would have been great. And yes, that shirt? Come on! (One positive thing here is that there isn't an explicit death scene, he could always end up being able to snag the gun out of Maya's hands if he showed in another season or movie/series)


----------



## Stalker0 (Dec 22, 2021)

Tonguez said:


> In the Comics Wilson Fisk has no 'superpowers' but is incredibly strong and durable, most of his bulk is muscle  and he's a skilled martial artist (including sumo wrestling). The Netflix FIsk emphasized his brutality and focus that made him inured to pain but was still 'realistic', whereas this version seems a bit too Disney villain, with the apparent invunerability to arrows and ugly floral shirt (Netflix Fisk was a sharp dresser who'd never wear that shirt) (edit: also remembered in Netflix his suits are armoured (Kevlar weave?), so maybe his floral shirt is armour and blocked Kates arrow?)



I think its very easy to believe that Fisk had the best body armor money can buy under his clothes. Hell he might have even had personal shielding, or something all said and done.

I think his strength is supposed to be "peak human"....and considering what feats "normal humans" can do in Marvel, I think he's feats were in line with a peak version of that. The simple truth is, humans in the MCU are just stronger and more durable than actual human anatomy would allow, so you have to allow for a bit of "superhuman" when you look at the top conditions.

And no I don't think Fisk is dead for a second. Whether it was some shield device, or fisk actually turned the tables on Maya and got the gun...they definitely have plans for that character in the future, he's too good to throw away.


Ultimately I think this show was one of the better representations of what I thought the MCU tv shows would represent. Just a good old time, with some fleshing of characters, some fun plots that don't ultimately change things TOO much. Ultimately it did a good blend of making Clint both heroic and mortal, and frankly was a better send off for Natasha than her own movie.


----------



## pukunui (Dec 22, 2021)

What’s the next Marvel Disney+ show on the schedule? _Ms Marvel_?

I presume that will start around the time _The Book of Boba Fett _finishes.


----------



## trappedslider (Dec 22, 2021)

MoonSong said:


> The fighting choreography is very well done and spectacular enough.  Tony Dalton was having the time of his life during that final part. Having Jack recruited by the Larpers was madness.



Is that a leisure activity?


----------



## Ryujin (Dec 22, 2021)

Fisk has survived wounds that would kill a normal man on more than one occasion. He is portrayed as almost 500 pounds of solid muscle, on a massive bone structure. He's gone toe-to-toe with Daredevil and Spiderman. I have no doubt that he'll be back after a single gunshot. That (field pointed) arrow barely penetrated him. He didn't need body armour.


----------



## Tonguez (Dec 22, 2021)

also did the whistle thing that stopped Yelena remind anyone else of the Maarthaaa scene in BvS? it wasnt as cringey as a Maarthaa scene especially after the reminder released in the past week that when Yelena visited Natashas grave she whistled to her sister (but didnt get a reply). That they released that 'director commentary' now and then we get pay off in Hawkeye giving the return whistle, just goes to show how tightly crafted and integrated the MCU is and Hawkeye has particularly good writing


----------



## Ryujin (Dec 22, 2021)

Tonguez said:


> also did the whistle thing that stopped Yelena remind anyone else of the Maarthaaa scene in BvS? it wasnt as cringey as a Maarthaa scene (espcially after the reminder released in the past week that when Yelena visited Natashas grave she whistled to her sister (but didnt got a reply))
> That they released that 'director commentary' now and then we get pay off in Hawkeye giving the return whistle, just goes to show how tightly crafted and integrated the MCU is (and Hawkeye has particularly good writing)



That's an example of how you do that sort of thing; show an honest connection between two characters, who have a love of a third in common. BvS pulled it out like a Bat Shark Repellent out of a utility belt, but without the irony.


----------



## Thomas Shey (Dec 22, 2021)

MoonSong said:


> On the other hand, I would have wanted Fisk to live to fight another day. I feel his character was wasted, he only shows in the third act, without much in the way of characterization and gets put down like a dog. At least having more of him to develop would have been great. And yes, that shirt? Come on! (One positive thing here is that there isn't an explicit death scene, he could always end up being able to snag the gun out of Maya's hands if he showed in another season or movie/series)




Assuming Fisk is dead because of one gunshot sound offscreen is a big leap given the history of pulp and comic conventions.


----------



## Thomas Shey (Dec 22, 2021)

pukunui said:


> What’s the next Marvel Disney+ show on the schedule? _Ms Marvel_?
> 
> I presume that will start around the time _The Book of Boba Fett _finishes.




They've been less than clear about that.  My best guess is either Moon Knight or She Hulk, but Ms. Marvel is not impossible.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Dec 22, 2021)

pukunui said:


> What’s the next Marvel Disney+ show on the schedule? _Ms Marvel_?
> 
> I presume that will start around the time _The Book of Boba Fett _finishes.




Everything has been pushed back, same as the movies. So far, Ms Marvel is listed as Summer 2022, and the other announced shows are just 2022, or later, with no more details. We also know a 2nd season of What If? is coming, and probably already finished in production, so we may get that as the next MCU show. Or they may give us two Star Wars shows in a row, maybe the 2nd season of The Bad Batch.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Dec 22, 2021)

MarkB said:


> It has a salmon-pink face in both shots. In the first one it just has some metallic reflections of red light.




Well, whether is was just a trick of the light or something, naming her Agent 19 on the back of the watch makes Laura as Mockingbird. That just leaves the question of whether she is the only Mockingbird and Agents of SHIELD is finally shown as non-canon, or if she retired and passed the codename on to Bobbi Morse.


----------



## Tonguez (Dec 22, 2021)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Well, whether is was just a trick of the light or something, naming her Agent 19 on the back of the watch makes Laura as Mockingbird. That just leaves the question of whether she is the only Mockingbird and Agents of SHIELD is finally shown as non-canon, or if she retired and passed the codename on to Bobbi Morse.



Yeah I first thought that was quite a slap down for AoS and a   in the face of Adrienne Palicki, but if MCU Mockingbird is a designation like Black Widow then Bobbi Morse (Also called Agent 19) might still be active and off in the UK.

as for the 2022 TV Lineup
_Ms. Marvel_, in Summer (July?)
Then _Moon Knight_,
_She-Hulk _
Nick Fury for _Secret Invasion_.
_Werewolf By Night_ gets a Halloween special 
_The Guardians of the Galaxy Holiday Special_
The pattern has been 6 episode ‘seasons”


----------



## Ryujin (Dec 22, 2021)

Tonguez said:


> Yeah I first thought that was quite a slap down for AoS and a   in the face of Adrienne Palicki, but if MCU Mockingbird is a designation like Black Widow then Bobbi Morse (Also called Agent 19) might still be active and off in the UK.
> 
> as for the 2022 TV Lineup
> _Ms. Marvel_, in Summer (July?)
> ...



I'm really looking forward to seeing what Tatjana Maslany does with "She Hulk." Anyone who has watched "Orphan Black" knows what a phenomenal actress she is.


----------



## Stalker0 (Dec 22, 2021)

Ryujin said:


> That's an example of how you do that sort of thing; show an honest connection between two characters, who have a love of a third in common. BvS pulled it out like a Bat Shark Repellent out of a utility belt, but without the irony.



Honestly the moment by itself was likely not enough to stop Yelena. Afterall, she's a spy, she knows that someone who knows you perfectly well one day could betray you the next. The idea that Hawkeye knew about Natasha's life and past means nothing in terms of whether he could have killed her.

I think its more that Yelena was looking for reasons not to kill. I mean this whole time she has been taking her time with this hit, and even in fights with Hawkeye never showed really killer aggression. And so that whistle was a moment that let her stop and consider, and it worked out pretty well.


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## DeviousQuail (Dec 23, 2021)

A pretty good finale. It hit this perfect level of comicbooky over-the-topness that managed to be simultaneously absurd, thrilling, earnest, and heartfelt. It also cleared up most of the loose strings while leaving a couple hanging for future endeavors. It doesn't supplant WandaVision as my favorite D+ show but it's up there.

New game: we saw how Clint reacted to Rodgers the musical. How do you think other MCU characters (living or less so) would react?

Ant-Man: Just vibing to the music.
Iron Man: "I saves New York from being nuked and snapped Thanos out of existence but sure let's make a musical about Rodgers."
Capt America: "That's America's musical."
Black Panther: "Wakanda nonsense is this?"
Hulk: Same cringey feeling he experienced seeing himself during Endgame.


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## Ryujin (Dec 23, 2021)

DeviousQuail said:


> A pretty good finale. It hit this perfect level of comicbooky over-the-topness that managed to be simultaneously absurd, thrilling, earnest, and heartfelt. It also cleared up most of the loose strings while leaving a couple hanging for future endeavors. It doesn't supplant WandaVision as my favorite D+ show but it's up there.
> 
> New game: we saw how Clint reacted to Rodgers the musical. How do you think other MCU characters (living or less so) would react?
> 
> ...



Shuri - They're using wires? WIRES?!
Natasha - I do *NOT * land like that.
Thor - I am not that puny. And my hair is... better.


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## trappedslider (Dec 23, 2021)

Ryujin said:


> Natasha - I do *NOT * land like that.



Yelena: Total poser like i said.


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## Tonguez (Dec 23, 2021)

Stalker0 said:


> Honestly the moment by itself was likely not enough to stop Yelena. Afterall, she's a spy, she knows that someone who knows you perfectly well one day could betray you the next. The idea that Hawkeye knew about Natasha's life and past means nothing in terms of whether he could have killed her.
> 
> I think its more that Yelena was looking for reasons not to kill. I mean this whole time she has been taking her time with this hit, and even in fights with Hawkeye never showed really killer aggression. And so that whistle was a moment that let her stop and consider, and it worked out pretty well.




well yes, but thats been her character since she was establshed in the BW movie - she's a fun loving young woman who happens to have a very specific set of skills.
In the movie its the line where she always considered their family to be real and in Hawkeye its portrayed in the interaction between Yelena and Kate. Their fight was great because its made clear that Yelena outclasses Kate during the entire scramble, but she has no intention of hurting Kate, just removing an obstacle.
Even her taking on the role of rescuing the victims of the Red Room displays herfunamental goodness.
Val used revenge on Natasha's killer as a hook to drag her in, but once Yelena got new information her good nature asserted itself and the Whistle became carthasis, she can put Natasha to rest, knowing thay she chose to die to save everyone


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## Rune (Dec 23, 2021)

Thomas Shey said:


> Unless I'm forgetting something from Daredevil (and to be fair, I never saw the last season), Fisk seemed at least borderline superhuman in a way he'd never seemed in the Netflix show.



It’s not entirely unlikely that he was able to get ahold of some of the Power Broker’s super-serum at some point.


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## Wolfram stout (Dec 23, 2021)

Stalker0 said:


> I think its very easy to believe that Fisk had the best body armor money can buy under his clothes. Hell he might have even had personal shielding, or something all said and done.
> 
> I think his strength is supposed to be "peak human"....and considering what feats "normal humans" can do in Marvel, I think he's feats were in line with a peak version of that. The simple truth is, humans in the MCU are just stronger and more durable than actual human anatomy would allow, so you have to allow for a bit of "superhuman" when you look at the top conditions.
> 
> ...



This. We see Kate shoot him point blank earlier and he yanks it out. Plus, in Daredevil, it shows he has a guy that could make a clothing weave out of bullet proof material. Uncle Ben might be dead but Wilson Fisk? never!


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## Zaukrie (Dec 23, 2021)

I loved this show, until this episode. Where were the police that whole fight? And I'm so over good guys letting bad guys live or at least not be arrested, and come back to hurt others over and over. But the lack of police was just stupid.


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## Cadence (Dec 23, 2021)

Zaukrie said:


> I loved this show, until this episode. Where were the police that whole fight? And I'm so over good guys letting bad guys live or at least not be arrested, and come back to hurt others over and over. But the lack of police was just stupid.




Does Kingpin have some strings he can pull to get a bit of time to work?  Hard to say it's "your city" if every diligent beat cop could cause major trouble.


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## Sacrosanct (Dec 23, 2021)

Zaukrie said:


> I loved this show, until this episode. Where were the police that whole fight? And I'm so over good guys letting bad guys live or at least not be arrested, and come back to hurt others over and over. But the lack of police was just stupid.



I liked the series, but yeah, I was wondering where all the police were, especially that part of New York. And they were gone for a long time.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Dec 23, 2021)

You all don't know Kingpin and his connections very well. Especially the MCU version, where he does not have Daredevil or Spiderman around to keep him in check. Or not yet, at least.


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## Zaukrie (Dec 23, 2021)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> You all don't know Kingpin and his connections very well. Especially the MCU version, where he does not have Daredevil or Spiderman around to keep him in check. Or not yet, at least.



There is no in show reason to.


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## Thomas Shey (Dec 23, 2021)

Wolfram stout said:


> This. We see Kate shoot him point blank earlier and he yanks it out. Plus, in Daredevil, it shows he has a guy that could make a clothing weave out of bullet proof material. Uncle Ben might be dead but Wilson Fisk? never!




All Fisk had to do was arrange a small disturbance a little distance away to pull away the locally stationed police, and the rest of it would be over before there was response.


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## Paul Farquhar (Dec 23, 2021)

pukunui said:


> What’s the next Marvel Disney+ show on the schedule? _Ms Marvel_?
> 
> I presume that will start around the time _The Book of Boba Fett _finishes.



I don't think they have anything else ready to show in their two big franchises. Maybe some animation. Even evil megacorps run out of material occasionally.


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## Paul Farquhar (Dec 23, 2021)

Ryujin said:


> Fisk has survived wounds that would kill a normal man on more than one occasion. He is portrayed as almost 500 pounds of solid muscle, on a massive bone structure. He's gone toe-to-toe with Daredevil and Spiderman. I have no doubt that he'll be back after a single gunshot. That (field pointed) arrow barely penetrated him. He didn't need body armour.



Two words:

Hit points.


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## Ryujin (Dec 23, 2021)

Zaukrie said:


> There is no in show reason to.



I seem to recall a scene in which a uniformed cop brings them information and receives a payoff for it. Just one of many.


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## Janx (Dec 23, 2021)

Well, that was fun.

And we got to see Rogers!  Way less rogering than expected from the title.

It sort of had the wahoo ballsyness of a big D&D fight where all sorts of crazy tricks get pulled out of the bag of holding to stave off defeat.


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## Ryujin (Dec 23, 2021)

Janx said:


> Well, that was fun.
> 
> And we got to see Rogers!  Way less rogering than expected from the title.
> 
> It sort of had the wahoo ballsyness of a big D&D fight where all sorts of crazy tricks get pulled out of the bag of holding to stave off defeat.



I think that I liked the Pym Tech arrow scene the best.


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## Osgood (Dec 23, 2021)

I think we need a full version of Rogers the musical, similar to how Disney+ has Hamilton. Or if they are unwilling to commit, every D+ Marvel series form now on gets at least one post credits scene that is a number from Rogers...


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## Ryujin (Dec 23, 2021)

Next show idea: "Being Kingpin." - Following Wilson Fisk's daily activities in a similar manner to "The Sopranos", with the occasional intervention by a "superhero of the week", to screw with his plans.


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## trappedslider (Dec 23, 2021)

Ryujin said:


> Next show idea: "Being Kingpin." - Following Wilson Fisk's daily activities in a similar manner to "The Sopranos", with the occasional intervention by a "superhero of the week", to screw with his plans.



I'd rather have a buddy comedy with Yelena and Kate


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## MarkB (Dec 23, 2021)

trappedslider said:


> I'd rather have a buddy comedy with Yelena and Kate



Or maybe a Yelena travelogue, where she goes to various cities and tours the best sights and eateries, and then just casually murders someone at some point.


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## Cadence (Dec 23, 2021)

How many characters are we away from having a Thunderbolts team led by Elaine?


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## Mallus (Dec 23, 2021)

MarkB said:


> Or maybe a Yelena travelogue, where she goes to various cities and tours the best sights and eateries, and then just casually murders someone at some point.



You can call it "No Reservations".


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Dec 23, 2021)

Cadence said:


> How many characters are we away from having a Thunderbolts team led by Elaine?




No clue, but we are really close to having enough for the rumored Young Avengers movie or show.


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## Tonguez (Dec 23, 2021)

trappedslider said:


> I'd rather have a buddy comedy with Yelena and Kate



Absolutely Marvelous -  Sex and the Super City - 


Mallus said:


> You can call it "No Reservations".





Ryujin said:


> Next show idea: "Being Kingpin." - Following Wilson Fisk's daily activities in a similar manner to "The Sopranos", with the occasional intervention by a "superhero of the week", to screw with his plans.



these are all great ideas, how do you pitch something to Kevin Feige?


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## Tonguez (Dec 23, 2021)

Cadence said:


> How many characters are we away from having a Thunderbolts team led by Elaine?




Yelena
Abomination
US Agent
Zemo (maybe?)
Taskmaster (Black Widow movie version?)
Punisher (Netflix)
Bullseye (via Daredevil)
Venom (he’s MCU now)
Titania (post She-Hulk) *other UCWF Femizons could make the cut via Powerbrokers Supersoldier formula too


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## Thomas Shey (Dec 23, 2021)

Cadence said:


> How many characters are we away from having a Thunderbolts team led by Elaine?




More likely Dark Avengers.


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## Thomas Shey (Dec 23, 2021)

Tonguez said:


> Yelena
> Abomination
> US Agent
> Zemo (maybe?)
> ...




Possibly Morbius, too.


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## Thomas Shey (Dec 23, 2021)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> No clue, but we are really close to having enough for the rumored Young Avengers movie or show.




Given we know we're getting America Chavez, Ms. Marvel and Ironheart soon, and we've at least got the setup for Stature and Patriot...


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## Ryujin (Dec 23, 2021)

MarkB said:


> Or maybe a Yelena travelogue, where she goes to various cities and tours the best sights and eateries, and then just casually murders someone at some point.



Ah, yes. The good old fashioned, "Go to interesting places, meet interesting people, and kill them."


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## Stalker0 (Dec 23, 2021)

Thomas Shey said:


> Possibly Morbius, too.



I could see it as a one-off tv season. I think marvel will be careful about involving Sony in long term prospects, as there is always the worry that things fall apart again, but for a closed season of tv seems like a solid collaboration.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Dec 23, 2021)

Thomas Shey said:


> Given we know we're getting America Chavez, Ms. Marvel and Ironheart soon, and we've at least got the setup for Stature and Patriot...




Plus Wiccan and Speed, it Wanda's kids are found as teenagers in an alternate dimension. And the grandson of the black Captain America, whose names I can't remember at the moment. And Kate, of course. I also think Yelena has had enough of a change of heart to join this team, rather than the other one. And that might even be a point of conflict between the two groups in future shows or movies.


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## RangerWickett (Dec 23, 2021)

As typical for these Disney+ shows, the final episode doesn't _quite_ stick the landing, because they tend to be pretty muddled with too many characters whose plot threads don't tie up neatly, but it's still fun.

Really, all it really needed was a grumbled line from Fisk of, "I was supposed to meet Vanessa in the Bahamas for Christmas, but I suppose I'll have to deal with this unpleasant business first. Kazi, I trust you can make sure the police will be sufficiently _distracted_ while I'm giving Eleanor her retirement gift."

Then maybe instead of having Maya show up to fight Kazi, have her be the one who rams Fisk, but before she can go in to fight her boss, Kazi interrupts her, and _that's_ when they fight, with him showing explicitly that he's more loyal to Kingpin than to her.

But all in all, I really enjoyed the show as a fun Christmas-y romp. I'd rank it as my favorite D+ show so far. Wandavision's second, suffering only because the ending departed from the clever TV conceit that had made the show so good previously. Loki was really entertaining, except that Tom Hiddleston wasn't playing 'the god of mischief,' but rather some guy who never once betrayed or tricked anyone of import, which was very out of character for Loki. (That even could have worked if he had a _plan_ to trick someone, but made a conscious choice _not _to do it, as a sign of character growth.)

And Falcon & The Winter Soldier was a victim of too many rewrites and a bit of clunky speechifying at the end.

(What If...? doesn't really fit on the same metric, since it only vaguely had a cohesive story.)


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## Tonguez (Dec 23, 2021)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> . And the grandson of the black Captain America, whose names I can't remember at the moment.



that would be Patriot as mentioned by Thomas Shey

what happened to Crusher Creel on AoS?


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## Morrus (Dec 23, 2021)

Big enjoy. Definitely the best Marvel show so far (and the one I had lowest expectations for!) 

I really hope Kingpin isn’t dead.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Dec 23, 2021)

RangerWickett said:


> Then maybe instead of having Maya show up to fight Kazi




Maya did not show up to fight Kazi. She showed up to get him to run away with her because they were lovers, but her feelings for him were a lot stronger than his for her, so he basically forced her to kill him.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Dec 23, 2021)

Morrus said:


> I really hope Kingpin isn’t dead.




Never trust an off-screen death. And with superhero-related stuff, never trust an on-screen death.   lol

Besides, someone has to be chasing Maya in her Echo limited series, or maybe someone she is still trying to take down in her series.

And how did I forget to include her in the Young Avengers speculation? Though for now, she may fit more with the Dark Avengers/Thunderbolts thing that Val is assembling.


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## RangerWickett (Dec 23, 2021)

That didn't come across to me. Maybe I am misremembering, but it seemed like she showed up, injured some of his friends (which is a pretty bad way to start a conversation), and then they very quickly started fighting. I don't think the fight was well-motivated in the plot, whereas if Kazi attacks her to protect Kingpin, that's a stronger reason for the two of them to fight.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Dec 24, 2021)

Very good article about/interview with Vincent D'Onofrio:









						Vincent D'Onofrio reveals how his 'Daredevil' villain joins the MCU on the 'Hawkeye' season finale
					

D'Onofrio explains how he and his "Daredevil" costar, Charlie Cox, came to join the MCU.




					www.yahoo.com
				




This particular part really stood out:



> According to D'Onofrio, one point of connection is that the five-year "Blip" caused by Thanos's apocalyptic Infinity War finger snap rocked the Kingpin's corner of New York City. "After the Blip, he lost some of his power, and he wants it back," the actor explains, adding that his alter ego is "physically stronger" as a result of that mission.


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## pukunui (Dec 24, 2021)

RangerWickett said:


> That didn't come across to me. Maybe I am misremembering, but it seemed like she showed up, injured some of his friends (which is a pretty bad way to start a conversation), and then they very quickly started fighting. I don't think the fight was well-motivated in the plot, whereas if Kazi attacks her to protect Kingpin, that's a stronger reason for the two of them to fight.



Kazi is standing with two cronies about to shoot Clint with his sniper rifle. Maya uses her bike to knock over the cronies then starts talking to Kazi. He tells her she should have left. She pleads with him to go with her. He says “this is my life!” He grabs an arrow, they fight, she breaks the arrow and stabs him with part of it and he dies.


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## Umbran (Dec 24, 2021)

RangerWickett said:


> That didn't come across to me.




She explicitly tells him that she doesn't want to kill him and that they could leave together.



pukunui said:


> Kazi is standing with two cronies about to shoot Clint with his sniper rifle. Maya uses her bike to knock over the cronies then starts talking to Kazi. He tells her she should have left. She pleads with him to go with her. He says “this is my life!” He grabs an arrow, they fight, she breaks the arrow and stabs him with part of it and he dies.




Yeah, it read to me like a classic "struggling over a weapon and one of them gets stabbed with it" thing.

Overall, it was a good series.  I enjoyed Wandavision and Loki more, but this gave the old Hawkeye a decent wrapping-up, which I admit was called for.


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## pukunui (Dec 25, 2021)

At the end, when Kate is proposing various superhero names for herself (e.g. Ladyhawk), and Clint says he has a better idea … do you suppose he suggests that she simply take on the name of Hawkeye?


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## Morrus (Dec 25, 2021)

pukunui said:


> At the end, when Mate is proposing various superhero names for herself (e.g. Ladyhawk), and Clint says he has a better idea … do you suppose he suggests that she simply take on the name of Hawkeye?



Yes, that’s the implication.


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## Umbran (Dec 25, 2021)

pukunui said:


> At the end, when Kate is proposing various superhero names for herself (e.g. Ladyhawk), and Clint says he has a better idea … do you suppose he suggests that she simply take on the name of Hawkeye?




Yeah.  It seems to me that Clint wants to at least semi-retire, so passing on the name makes sense - after all Cap did it, so why can't he?


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## Tonguez (Dec 25, 2021)

Umbran said:


> Yeah.  It seems to me that Clint wants to at least semi-retire, so passing on the name makes sense - after all Cap did it, so why can't he?



yeah Clint _officially_ retired after the Battle of Sokovia, and every subsequent appearance has been reluctant (Civil War because of his personal loyalty to Rogers and then as Ronin after the Snap). Being able to hand on the mantle of Hawkeye would be the ideal for Clint - it might even set up Himself and Mrs Hawkeye as mentors to a new team of young avengers


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## trappedslider (Dec 25, 2021)

I wonder how many take they had to do due to them laughing in the elevator lol


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## Blue (Dec 25, 2021)

Tonguez said:


> the Sheild Logo and Agent 19 imprint on the watch was a cop out, what kind of good Secret Agent wears a watch that advertises who their employer is?



Shield put their logo all over the place for a supposedly secret organization.  But it could have also been a retirement gift.


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## doctorbadwolf (Dec 25, 2021)

Blue said:


> Shield put their logo all over the place for a supposedly secret organization.  But it could have also been a retirement gift.



Well, they weren’t a secret organization. They were a spy agency, and in the long American tradition, they had a big fancy office building headquarters and their logo all over their kit.  

I mean, it’s not like and agent is taking their “20 years with the company” watch out on secret missions.


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## Morrus (Dec 25, 2021)

Blue said:


> Shield put their logo all over the place for a supposedly secret organization.  But it could have also been a retirement gift.



Is it a secret organisation? It has helicarriers! At least from its portrayal in the movies, I assumed it was a well-known military branch.


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## Blue (Dec 25, 2021)

Tonguez said:


> also did the whistle thing that stopped Yelena remind anyone else of the Maarthaaa scene in BvS? it wasnt as cringey as a Maarthaa scene especially after the reminder released in the past week that when Yelena visited Natashas grave she whistled to her sister (but didnt get a reply). That they released that 'director commentary' now and then we get pay off in Hawkeye giving the return whistle, just goes to show how tightly crafted and integrated the MCU is and Hawkeye has particularly good writing



One person specifically doing the whiltle because they knew what it meant to the other person and needing to convey how much their shared friend/sister meant to them that she would share something secret from so many years ago.

Sorry, didn't get a single "Maarthaaa" vibe from it in the slightest.


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## Ryujin (Dec 25, 2021)

Morrus said:


> Is it a secret organisation? It has helicarriers! At least from its portrayal in the movies, I assumed it was a well-known military branch.



They were a known intelligence agency but their one helicarrier was capable of cloaking and secret, until they made 20 of them and they... weren't. Launching a bunch of them from under the headquarters reflecting pool was a bit of a give-away.


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## Morrus (Dec 25, 2021)

Tonguez said:


> also did the whistle thing that stopped Yelena remind anyone else of the Maarthaaa scene in BvS? it wasnt as cringey as a Maarthaa scene especially after the reminder released in the past week that when Yelena visited Natashas grave she whistled to her sister (but didnt get a reply). That they released that 'director commentary' now and then we get pay off in Hawkeye giving the return whistle, just goes to show how tightly crafted and integrated the MCU is and Hawkeye has particularly good writing



I like Hawkeye a lot, but that bit was pretty basic writing 101. It ticked the box correctly and served its function, but it wasn’t particularly interesting.


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## Paul Farquhar (Dec 25, 2021)

Morrus said:


> Is it a secret organisation? It has helicarriers! At least from its portrayal in the movies, I assumed it was a well-known military branch.



It's called out a couple of times in Agents if Shield.

But if you look at some real life intelligence agencies, _officially_ they don't exist, even though everyone knows they do.


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## billd91 (Dec 25, 2021)

Morrus said:


> Is it a secret organisation? It has helicarriers! At least from its portrayal in the movies, I assumed it was a well-known military branch.



It's kind of hard to pin down. Even in the comics SHIELD was pretty secretive - hidden bases and all that as inspired by the Man from UNCLE. But I think it's more of an iceberg kind of organization - it may have had a small public profile but there's a LOT going on underneath the relatively impenetrable surface.
In various other incarnations, it's been higher profile - including the Ultimates universe.


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## Nikosandros (Jan 1, 2022)

I've only now watched the series. I had very low expectations, but I enjoyed it and it reconciled me with Hawkeye as a character as I never really cared all that much about him in the movies.


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## trappedslider (Jan 5, 2022)




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## Rabulias (Feb 15, 2022)

FYI, the latest episode of _Assembled! _covers the making of _Hawkeye _and it's now up on Disney+.


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