# Save Bluffside



## Crothian (Jul 30, 2003)

Gencon was not all happiness and fun, I'm sorry to say.  I learned to my suprise that Bluffside is falling to the wayside.  MEG said they are still looking at doing a pdf for it, but other then that it won't be supported.  It was one of those business descions, and Doug and Hal explained it too me and I could tell they were more then a little sad to see it go.  

But I don't want it to go.  And I'm hoping I'm not alone in this.  So, I want to save Bluffside or at least insure that there will be pdf support.  I love pdfs, so that doesn't bother me.  So, please, people of EN World show your Bluffside support and post that you don't want this great city to fade away.


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## BiggusGeekus (Jul 30, 2003)

Huh?

Bluffside is one of the few "must have" city products out there.  Whenever someone has a recommend-a-citybook thread, Bluffside always comes up.

I'm somewhat taken aback by this development.


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## Teflon Billy (Jul 30, 2003)

Wierd.

Wierd and sad.

Bluffside was the "catch my attention and refuse to release it" product from the 2002 ENnie awards. Thank God I still have my copy.

Sad to see it go, but if it's not selling, it's not selling.


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## trancejeremy (Jul 30, 2003)

I don't think Bluffside was generic enough.

Neat place, but dragon men? Winged folk? 

I would be shocked if more than a handful of people bought the Empire of Sands book. It's not hard to drop a city into your own setting, but an empire of dragon people?


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## MEG Hal (Jul 30, 2003)

Let me clarify that.
We are (at the moment) only going to do pdf products for it we will not stop selling it etc...

We have so many lines etc that when we have to see what we need to do to trim down the lines it is the one with the lower sales.

I think what happened was it was sooooo long between Bluffie and Interludes: Sands of Pain that the retailers kinda forgot..so sales dipped, and our other lines stay strong so all I can say is we will support the city and outskirts with pdf's but any other books (like the upcoming underwater book "The Deep") will not be Bluffside specific but will use and reprint items from that setting.

So the way to save it is for ditributors to see strong sales of the four books from that generic setting.

Like Crothian said this was a business decision not a "we are over Bluffie" decision.  I do love the book and we use it all the time but the market decides what line stays and what line goes, and at the moment Bluffie will be pdf release only on future products.


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## MEG Hal (Jul 30, 2003)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> *I don't think Bluffside was generic enough.
> 
> Neat place, but dragon men? Winged folk?
> 
> I would be shocked if more than a handful of people bought the Empire of Sands book. It's not hard to drop a city into your own setting, but an empire of dragon people? *




*holds trancejeremy so he doesn't fall over*
Dry Lands did fine but compared to our other books not enough when it came down to trimming down the lines.  Our "poorer" selling books sell more then some other companies (at our level) bigger sellers but we need to focus the teams and the Bluffie setting looks to be a casuality.


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## Harlock (Jul 30, 2003)

Say it ain't so?!

Man, I loved Interludes: Brief Expeditions to Bluffside so much when i played in it, I had to buy it and Bluffside both.  Since then I picked up both Empire of the Sand and Sands of Pain.  Bluffside was the first d20/non WotC book I bought because I enjoyed it so much.  This sucks, man.  I know Hal and Doug are probably not thrilled either, so, I'm not griping at them, but for the love of all that is D&D, Bluffside is a great book and if it cannot make it... it's a little scary.  Now I sound like a chicken little, which I don't want to...  Never the less, Hal, if you just need a big hairy shoulder to cry on... umm, I'm not going to finish that sentence.


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## Leopold (Jul 30, 2003)

while i don't mind seeing BS goto PDF i do worry that there won't be anymore support for it! I love this city, this is THE greyhawk replacement for D20 and now it'll fade away eventually. bummer


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## MEG Hal (Jul 30, 2003)

Leopold said:
			
		

> *while i don't mind seeing BS goto PDF i do worry that there won't be anymore support for it! I love this city, this is THE greyhawk replacement for D20 and now it'll fade away eventually. bummer  *




I may not be totally clear, we have *two new* Bluffside adventures to be released as pdf's this year.  The book is staying in circulation what I was saying is support will be in pdf form.

I did not see you at all at GenCon Leopold where you avoiding me?


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## Mystic Eye (Jul 30, 2003)

Well, Hal is correct but I thought I would jump on and clarify some stuff for ya all.

Bluffside will have some on-line support with two adventures scheduled for PDF soon.
We will also be releasing Bluffside as a PDF.
We chose to focus on some good producing and pontentially good producing products (example: Sups for Arcana Unearthed). Stopping production of what was on the bottom of the revenue stream (not what we loved or did not love) and sadly, Bluffside lost some momentum during our changes and never recovered. 
Our minds would certainly change if we saw a massive upheaval of support in the retail channel but trying to revitalize a line that has lost its steam is not the best way for us to use our resources.

That is not to say there will be no support at all, though I cannot say what will happen after these two PDF adventure releases.

We wanted to produce city section guides to Bluffside but the reality is that Bluffie has a loyal, but small, fanbase. Less than 2k perhaps, so we would be seriously limiting the scope of the product but producing, lets say, a Sordadon sourcebook.

We actually all love Bluffside to death and it was my sincerest hope that in taking on the property we could keep it alive. Unfortunately, our resources are finite and we need to focus where our energies are best served. 

I hope you all understand and would not be beyond any proposals for someone to continue Bluffside. It is not a bad seller, just not where we need our numbers to be with our production values and current product costs.


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## Crothian (Jul 30, 2003)

I'd like to thank Doug and Hal for stopping by and explaining things.  When I heard at Gen Con that Bluffside was not doing well, I talked to Hal about doing this thread.  I didn't want to step on anyones toes so to speak by making this announcement if he didn't want me to.  So, thanks guys and I really am looking forward to getting those adventures.


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## Sir Osis of Liver (Jul 30, 2003)

I'd suggest fans of the setting speak with thier wallets. If you have it and love it and want more of it, get friends to buy it, buy it for friends, and make sure you get the PDF's when they come out. Business is business, if you buy it the product will come.


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## EOL (Jul 30, 2003)

Don't forget that DireKobold.com has three Bluffside adventures written by Wil Upchurch (though the third, a massive dungeon crawl, won't be out until September).

_A Rain for all Tomorrows_ the latest of these was just released the Tuesday before GenCon.  I just barely posted a snippet (the gibbering mouther which grows as the party fights it, truly a classic).  So you can get a taste of it even if all you have is the free demo subscription.

I love the Bluffside setting as well and I'm happy to have the chance to publish some adventures set in this very cool city.


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## Crothian (Jul 30, 2003)

EOL said:
			
		

> *Don't forget that DireKobold.com has three Bluffside adventures written by Wil Upchurch (though the third, a massive dungeon crawl, won't be out until September).
> *




How did I miss this?  Wil's a great guy (though I never saw him at Gen Con) and this just makes my day.


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## drnuncheon (Jul 30, 2003)

Suck.  

I've been pimping it in my Story Hour (I even had one character inherit the barony that Kirkwood is a part of) and I know I've gotten a couple of people interested.

With any luck, the release of the PDFs will help things out.  Any of those upcoming adventures for higher-level folk?  Maybe you guys could do a new, even better city for AU?

J


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## MEG Hal (Jul 30, 2003)

drnuncheon said:
			
		

> *Suck.
> 
> I've been pimping it in my Story Hour (I even had one character inherit the barony that Kirkwood is a part of) and I know I've gotten a couple of people interested.
> 
> ...




Thanks drnuncheon, as for AU the next two books gave been green lit and we not have discussed what #4 will be so... ya never know.  Once again we will not kill Bluffie just not do any more in print books for it at this time.
/slaps head
Yes I can not believe I forgot about http://direkobold.com they have 3 and all from Wil and for a small subsrcition price you can scale them...so get those and the two we are releasing and you will actually have a heavy Bluffside year!


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## thundershot (Jul 30, 2003)

Tell you what, Hal... I'll forgive you if you let RPGNow sell them as PODs. 

Please?

PDFs are way too messy to print out and put in a binder for actual use....


Thanks
Chris


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## MEG Hal (Jul 30, 2003)

thundershot said:
			
		

> *Tell you what, Hal... I'll forgive you if you let RPGNow sell them as PODs.
> 
> Please?
> 
> ...




mmmm never even thought of that, I will talk to Doug and consider that.  I have seen some of the POD from ENPublishing and was suprised at the quality!

Great idea Chris!


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## thundershot (Jul 30, 2003)

YES!!! There is HOPE!








Thanks!
Chris


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## Mystic Eye (Jul 30, 2003)

thundershot said:
			
		

> *Tell you what, Hal... I'll forgive you if you let RPGNow sell them as PODs.
> 
> Please?
> 
> ...




That is a good idea! I will follow up on that. I am also sorry that I forgot to mention the three part adventure series at Dire Kobold by Wil Upchurch. They are awesome.


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## Crothian (Jul 31, 2003)

I like the idea of PODs as well.  I was impressed by the way they looked at the EN Publishing boothe.


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## Dave G (Jul 31, 2003)

Just another supporter of the setting who wants to add in my love of this product line.


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## der_kluge (Jul 31, 2003)

So what do the fans want to see for Bluffside?  Modules?  More Locations, more NPCs?  Details on the organizations?  Crunchy bits?

I mean, damn, Bluffside is already more city than a reasonable person can shake a stick at (I should know, I've tried, and I just can't shake a stick at it).  So what is there a demand for?


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## Crothian (Jul 31, 2003)

die_kluge said:
			
		

> *So what do the fans want to see for Bluffside?  Modules?  More Locations, more NPCs?  Details on the organizations?  Crunchy bits?
> 
> I mean, damn, Bluffside is already more city than a reasonable person can shake a stick at (I should know, I've tried, and I just can't shake a stick at it).  So what is there a demand for? *




The Black Tower, more info on the history and the many secrets of Bluffside.  More on the cliff divers, I really like those guys and that idea.


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## Dave G (Jul 31, 2003)

*What do _I_ want to see for Bluffside?*

I would love to see an adventure written up that takes a party from the city into the ruins of Sem La Vah (sic?)

I would like a web enhancement perhaps doing more to detail the agendas of the political players in Bluffside.  It could even be done in installments, the way that WotC has been doing their Sembia Matchmaker thing in the Realms.  I think this setting is great for political intrigue, and that showcasing even a couple of the players from the book would probably get people's imaginations churning.

Don't get me wrong, I love that the setting has a lot of suggestion within it (meaning you haven't done all of the work for us, but rather gave plenty of hooks to expand upon) but at the same time, This is a city set around ruins which we know very little about.  The artifact buildings within the city are cool too, but as Crothian said, more info on the black tower and the secrets are good candidates.

I fail to see the gripe that the setting's not unique enough, I think with a little tweaking this is an 'everywhere' product.

Also, I think the religions of Bluffside could use some expansion, maybe also in the form of a series of web enhancements.

There's my 2 copper's worth. Y'all do know I love this game don't you


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## drnuncheon (Jul 31, 2003)

*Re: What do _I_ want to see for Bluffside?*



			
				Dave G said:
			
		

> *I fail to see the gripe that the setting's not unique enough, I think with a little tweaking this is an 'everywhere' product. *




Indeed, most of my personal tweaks were to take _out_ some of the more unique stuff - simply because the tone of the campaign I'm using doesn't work well with the Dragori, the Nevae, or the Sixam.

J


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## der_kluge (Jul 31, 2003)

You can blame Meg "pantsless" Hal for the Sixam.  
And for the Nevae, too, as far as that goes.

No one has complained about Steam Gnomes yet, so that's good.


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## annadobritt (Aug 1, 2003)

Good grief!! I'm out of the loop for a while and when I return, Bluffside is in need of help!!

Well, somehow I will get that netbook done even if it kills me.


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## Crothian (Aug 1, 2003)

annadobritt said:
			
		

> *Good grief!! I'm out of the loop for a while and when I return, Bluffside is in need of help!!
> 
> Well, somehow I will get that netbook done even if it kills me. *




Anna if you want some help e-mail me.  I know I bailed on it once, but I'm willing to have a second go.


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## Kichwas (Aug 1, 2003)

Wether or not a product stays isn't based on how good it is but how well it sells.

That's why DnD lasted through it's first two Advanced editions...

For Bluffside to keep going, it should have tied itself into a larger product line, or become a full product line in it's own right early on.

In the end though, there's only so much room in the market, for every success, there have to be several failures.

If you want this book to suceed, what book will you chose to get pushed out?

I like Bluffside -I think it's one of the better settings out there- and I'd prefer it was one of the ones that suceeded. But honestly, I could tell it wouldn't not long after it came out, based on the type of support it got, and the way it was presented and hyped. There just wasn't enough cheese in there...


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## JoeGKushner (Aug 1, 2003)

When MEG revamps The Hunt setting for 3.5, I hope that they tightly integrate Bluffside. They can update all of the Bluffside material to 3.5, give it a home setting, and provide sidebars for using this part of the Hunt in other campaigns. It's what I call the Win-Win situation. Not only does it save readers the time of updating the rules to 3.5, but provides the city a solid base with some ideas of how to fit it into an existing setting.


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## Dave G (Aug 1, 2003)

[edit] erm... sorry [/edit]


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## Twin Rose (Aug 1, 2003)

Just tossing in my support, as I happen to love bluffside and have found that it fits very well with the history and story of my world.  Of course, I would love to learn more about the Ice Age, what caused it, and what will happen when it comes again (something like Malhavoc's end of the world book, a what-if-scenario enhancement would be great)  "The Coming of Ice" could even be generic enough for any setting.

Other ideas off the top of my head that might support bluffy:

Small enhancements (working with other publishers) giving notes on how to integrate bluffside into various campaigns.  

What is shipping like between Bluffside and Freeport?  How did the ancient people of Sem La Vah and the Serpent people interract?  Were the two cataclysms tied together?

How about finding out that Sem La Vah was in fact the ancient city that once rivalled Penance in the Forge, located on the shores of the northern Ocean in Wildwood [Oathbound]?  

How would Bluffside mesh with the rules and setting of Midnight Campaign Setting?  Is it a refuge for spellcasters, far from the persecution?

Just a few thoughts ...


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## Sixchan (Aug 1, 2003)

I still have my free copy that Hal sent me back at Christmas.  I'm not a big fan of most setting books, but this one was great.  I stil use it in my games frequently.  Ahh...memories.


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## Psion (Aug 1, 2003)

Well, Bluffside is more useful to me as something static as opposed to something I have to chase after anyways.

That said, there are two things that I need resolution on before you relegate it to the back burner:

- The archeological dig area.
- The black tower in the wizard's quarter.

Don't leave us hanging!


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## Ed Cha (Aug 1, 2003)

Has Bluffside been saved yet?


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## JoeGKushner (Aug 1, 2003)

Psion said:
			
		

> *Well, Bluffside is more useful to me as something static as opposed to something I have to chase after anyways.
> 
> That said, there are two things that I need resolution on before you relegate it to the back burner:
> 
> ...




Now that would be interesting if they could combine the two elements into one 96 page adventure/sourceobok.


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## MEG Hal (Aug 8, 2003)

For those of you who asked for it CHECK OUT THIS THREAD!!! .  Hopefully this will be another way people can enjoy the city on the edge.


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## Crothian (Aug 8, 2003)

MEG Hal said:
			
		

> *For those of you who asked for it CHECK OUT THIS THREAD!!! .  Hopefully this will be another way people can enjoy the city on the edge. *




Thanks Hal!!


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## Darkness (Aug 8, 2003)

MEG Hal said:
			
		

> *I did not see you at all at GenCon Leopold where you avoiding me?  *



He spent much of GenCon in a cage, from what I heard.


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## MEG Hal (Aug 9, 2003)

Psion said:
			
		

> *Well, Bluffside is more useful to me as something static as opposed to something I have to chase after anyways.
> 
> That said, there are two things that I need resolution on before you relegate it to the back burner:
> 
> ...





I will see what I can do about this for ya Psion.


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## Maldur (Aug 9, 2003)

I only got bluffside on this GENCOn and I really like it.
I Was very suprised about it actually, as it has a scary amount of similarities with my homebrew's major city! (its almost the same!!!)

t would be a shame if you lot wont make more silmilar product


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## MEG Hal (Aug 9, 2003)

Maldur said:
			
		

> *I only got bluffside on this GENCOn and I really like it.
> I Was very suprised about it actually, as it has a scary amount of similarities with my homebrew's major city! (its almost the same!!!)
> 
> t would be a shame if you lot wont make more silmilar product  *




Thanks Maldur it was nice seeing you even though we did not formally meet.  We do have a few more items for the Bluffside setting going electronic this month as well as 2 new adventures by the end of the year!  So keep an "eye" out for them.


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