# Burst / blast?



## AidyBaby (Mar 17, 2008)

Apologies, I'm sure this has been asked before (and I can't find the forum search) but can someone explain blasts and bursts for me, such as Burst 1 or Close Blast 5?

What's the shape of a burst and a blast? What does the 'Close' definition refer to?

Cheers.


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## Steely Dan (Mar 17, 2008)

A burst radiates out a number of squares from a target square.  So if it is a personal burst of 2, it would affect every square within two of you.

A blast is a number of squares (5x5 etc) that are put anywhere adjacent to the creature blasting.

Note: you no longer target intersections in 4th Ed.


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## LostInTheMists (Mar 17, 2008)

Steely Dan said:
			
		

> A blast is a number of squares (5x5 etc) that are put anywhere adjacent to the creature blasting.




Mind if I ask where you got this info (at DDXP, rules release, came to you in a dream)?  I hadn't seen this anywhere before.  Maybe I just missed it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm grateful for the info (I had been using the blast as a line with a range of X), but I'm just curious.

Thanks!


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## RandomCitizenX (Mar 17, 2008)

In one of the previous threads on this subject someone from WotC came in and clarified.


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## LostInTheMists (Mar 17, 2008)

RandomCitizenX said:
			
		

> In one of the previous threads on this subject someone from WotC came in and clarified.




Wonderful.  Thank you!


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## Revinor (Mar 17, 2008)

Steely Dan said:
			
		

> A burst radiates out a number of squares from a target square.  So if it is a personal burst of 2, it would affect every square within two of you.
> 
> A blast is a number of squares (5x5 etc) that are put anywhere adjacent to the creature blasting.




I thought that blast is like 3e lightning bolt (straight line from the caster), but your info makes more sense. First, cone of cold is blast 5 (if you put it near to you, if will look 'conish'), second, probably more important, doing straight line effects between two squares is very hard on battlemap (too much discussions if 45% square covered is in area of attack or not).

So, 'Close Blast 5' is same as  'Area Burst 2 within 3 squares', just with Area Burst you have a possibility to put center closer to you than max range ?


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## Steely Dan (Mar 17, 2008)

Revinor said:
			
		

> So, 'Close Blast 5' is same as  'Area Burst 2 within 3 squares'?




As an example:


Area 3 within 10, would mean you choose a square within 10 squares of you, and it bursts out from there 3 squares.


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## keterys (Mar 17, 2008)

Blast 5 from @

XXXXX
XXXXX
XXXXX
XXXXX
XXXXX@

Burst 2 within 10 from @

XXXXX
XXXXX
XXXXX....@
XXXXX
XXXXX

Close Burst 2 is everything within 2 of you, which can create different shapes for larger creatures... so from a Large Dragon (D)

XXXXXX
XXXXXX
XXDDXX
XXDDXX
XXXXXX
XXXXXX


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## Revinor (Mar 17, 2008)

keterys said:
			
		

> Blast 5 from @




Nethack 4th edition? Gimme !!!


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## AidyBaby (Mar 18, 2008)

Thanks gents. ASCII art for templates!!


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## nick012000 (Mar 18, 2008)

keterys said:
			
		

> Blast 5 from @
> 
> XXXXX
> XXXXX
> ...




So much hate for the Firecubes.


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## Steely Dan (Mar 18, 2008)

keterys said:
			
		

> Blast 5 from @
> 
> XXXXX
> XXXXX
> ...





Also blast 5 from @:


XXXXX
XXXXX
XXXXX@
XXXXX
XXXXX


Or:  


XXXXX
XXXXX
XXXXX
XXXXX@
XXXXX


Or:



XXXXX
XXXXX
XXXXX
XXXXX
XXXXX
         @

Well, you get the idea.


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## Lord Ernie (Mar 18, 2008)

I remember this being explained before, but for some reason I didn't quite understand it up till now (specifically: Blast is the new Cone). Thanks for the ASCII art, mates .


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## erf_beto (Mar 18, 2008)

Lord Ernie said:
			
		

> specifically: Blast is the new Cone.



Strangely, though, the new DDM game still have cones (divided into small and large pre-set templates, but still...)


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## keterys (Mar 18, 2008)

Thanks SD... I probably should have taken initiative and put that in my own example.

Long Live My Firecube Masters


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## KevinF (Mar 18, 2008)

If the Firecubes are real problem - use hex maps, and replace the word "Square" with "Hex", and everything should work out great.  It solves the diagonal movement issues some people have, and it makes fire balls round...

I think anyone that has trouble with squares should be able to easily convert to hex maps.


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## dekrass (Mar 18, 2008)

KevinF said:
			
		

> If the Firecubes are real problem - use hex maps, and replace the word "Square" with "Hex", and everything should work out great.  It solves the diagonal movement issues some people have, and it makes fire balls round...
> 
> I think anyone that has trouble with squares should be able to easily convert to hex maps.




I'd say they're roundish. 
They become fire hexes instead of fire cubes, but it is closer to circular.

I happen to prefer hexes, anyway.


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## FitzTheRuke (Mar 18, 2008)

I've said it once, and I'll say it again:

A dragon, ogre, and/or your character aren't cubes in spite of occupying a square base, so what's the problem with a square-based fireball?

Keterys (or anybody else who can answer it):

Is the range 10 on a blast mean the WHOLE blast needs to be within 10, or that the Point of Origin needs to be no more than 10 away?

Fitz


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## Thyrwyn (Mar 18, 2008)

point of origin only


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## frankthedm (May 4, 2008)

This help?


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## NMcCoy (May 4, 2008)

Ooh, that Close Burst 3's a pretty sweet square-splosion. What's it from?


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## frankthedm (May 4, 2008)

Some fire sprites from the golden axe game.

Wizard is from _King Of Dragons_
Kobold is from _Eye of the Beholder_
Blast 2 and Burst 1 are the Explosions of a _Doom _ Lost Soul
Daemon is a _RPG Maker 2_ sprite


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## Dausuul (May 4, 2008)

Man, whoever picked those names needs a whack with the clue-bat.  I foresee a LOT of confusion between "blast" and "burst."  And since blasts seem to be measured by diameter but bursts are measured by radius, it'll actually matter.

When choosing names, do not pick two names that a) start with the same letter, b) end with the same two letters, c) are both one syllable long, d) are the same length, e) have very similar meanings, and f) will be used in the same context.


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## WhatGravitas (May 4, 2008)

Dausuul said:
			
		

> When choosing names, do not pick two names that a) start with the same letter, b) end with the same two letters, c) are both one syllable long, d) are the same length, e) have very similar meanings, and f) will be used in the same context.



Yeah, I suffered from that already during some discussions. Followed by some facepalms. *sigh*

What about explosion and blast? Explosion too long? Then what about: Burst and wave? :\

Cheers, LT.


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## Mouseferatu (May 4, 2008)

I was worried about this too, originally. But I've found that, once people have played with the new rules a bit, it actually turns out to be a non-issue. Sort of like the 247 different meanings of the word "level." 

Which isn't to say that it might not've been better to use more distinct terms. It very well might. I'm just saying it hasn't proven to be a big hindrance, IME.


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## Dausuul (May 4, 2008)

Lord Tirian said:
			
		

> Yeah, I suffered from that already during some discussions. Followed by some facepalms. *sigh*
> 
> What about explosion and blast? Explosion too long? Then what about: Burst and wave? :\
> 
> Cheers, LT.




How about "blast" and "radius?"


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## Verys Arkon (May 5, 2008)

Here are the Burst and Blast diagrams from the PrRC .

link 

I had a lot of help from others on these (especially FranktheDM)


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## Dausuul (May 5, 2008)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> I was worried about this too, originally. But I've found that, once people have played with the new rules a bit, it actually turns out to be a non-issue. Sort of like the 247 different meanings of the word "level."
> 
> Which isn't to say that it might not've been better to use more distinct terms. It very well might. I'm just saying it hasn't proven to be a big hindrance, IME.




Hmm, that's reassuring.  How experienced is your group?  Are they all hardcore gamers, or do you have some newbies in the mix?


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## Mouseferatu (May 5, 2008)

Dausuul said:
			
		

> Hmm, that's reassuring.  How experienced is your group?  Are they all hardcore gamers, or do you have some newbies in the mix?




We range from mega-hardcore gamers who have been playing regularly for decades, to experienced gamers who have been playing on and off for at least four or five years. No newbies, I fear, which may indeed suggest that my take on the issue isn't universally applicable.


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## WhatGravitas (May 5, 2008)

Dausuul said:
			
		

> How about "blast" and "radius?"



Radius actually sounds pretty technical and bland, at least IMHO. What about "Burst" and "Sweep"?

"Sweep" doesn't make you think of a centre and radius...

Cheers, LT.


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## Reaper Steve (May 5, 2008)

erf_beto said:
			
		

> Strangely, though, the new DDM game still have cones (divided into small and large pre-set templates, but still...)




My guess is that DDM 2.0 was done before 4E had the revelation about burst and blast.

I read somwhere that WotC plans on doing a new DDM starter every year. My money is on the next DDM iteration to use 4E's burst/blast.

I certainly hope so... I really dislike the new cones for DDM, especially the inability to fire one with center of mass directly forward. Burst/blast, while square is a much simpler, flexible, and ultimately more satisfying method than those cones IMO.


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## Stogoe (May 5, 2008)

What about 3e's Cover and Concealment?  Seriously, guys, Burst/Blast are specific game terms; you'll get used to them in no time.


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## WhatGravitas (May 5, 2008)

Stogoe said:
			
		

> What about 3e's Cover and Concealment?



Well, Cover and Concealment are pretty self-explanatory - you'll never confuse the concepts, because the words themselves are having certain English denotations.

Blast and Burst, however... are pretty similar, and the words themselves have very similar meanings, and don't convey being very different in game terms.

Cheers, LT.


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## Surgoshan (May 5, 2008)

Burst has an 'r', 'r' gives you 'radius', which tells you how to measure burst.  Yay!  I found a mnemonic!  I r smrt!


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## arghost (May 5, 2008)

Actually, according to New Oxford American Dictionary the normal english interpretation of these words make perfect sense according to game mechanics:

burst
an instance of breaking or splitting as a result of internal pressure or puncturing; an explosion.

blast
1 a destructive wave of highly compressed air spreading outward from an explosion




			
				Lord Tirian said:
			
		

> Well, Cover and Concealment are pretty self-explanatory - you'll never confuse the concepts, because the words themselves are having certain English denotations.
> 
> Blast and Burst, however... are pretty similar, and the words themselves have very similar meanings, and don't convey being very different in game terms.
> 
> Cheers, LT.


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## pinbot (May 27, 2008)

burst is usually fruity, blast is typically minty


okay, seriously, I agree they are bad terms.  D&D has a pretty math friendly following.  Diameter and radius would have been dandy.


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## Mort_Q (May 27, 2008)

pinbot said:
			
		

> burst is usually fruity, blast is typically minty
> 
> 
> okay, seriously, I agree they are bad terms.  D&D has a pretty math friendly following.  Diameter and radius would have been dandy.




Dandy, but not better.  Which one is burst and which one is blast?

[sblock=my guess]My guess radius is burst and diameter in blast?[/sblock]


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## Stogoe (May 27, 2008)

Lord Tirian said:
			
		

> Well, Cover and Concealment are pretty self-explanatory - you'll never confuse the concepts, because the words themselves are having certain English denotations.




They have these denotations in your mind _only because_ D&D 3rd Edition used them in that specific way.  Otherwise they're pretty interchangeable.

Covered by mist.

Concealed by the wall.

These only sound incorrect because of your years of playing D&D.


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## Torchlyte (May 27, 2008)

Stogoe said:
			
		

> They have these denotations in your mind _only because_ D&D 3rd Edition used them in that specific way.  Otherwise they're pretty interchangeable.
> 
> Covered by mist.
> 
> ...




This is correct.

I agree that burst/sweep would be better than burst/blast, but it's not really feasible to try and houserule it.


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## ZetaStriker (May 27, 2008)

I thought Burst/Blast weren't too bad, name-wise. They sound very different when spoken, after all, and their meanings also match their types. I knew right from the start which was which without having to look at the PrC.


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## Vickrin (May 27, 2008)

*Blast*

Isnt a blast a line ?

Such as 
Blast 2
XXO

rather than
Blast 2
XX
XXO


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## Mort_Q (May 27, 2008)

Blast X is a square with dimensions X by X, with at least one of the squares adjacent to the caster.  Your second diagram is correct.


That said, there are no lines in 4e either.


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## Blackeagle (May 27, 2008)

Stogoe said:
			
		

> They have these denotations in your mind _only because_ D&D 3rd Edition used them in that specific way.  Otherwise they're pretty interchangeable.




Cover and concealment are NOT interchangeable in the real world.  Thinking that they are has, in fact, gotten lots of people killed.  To put it simply, cover is something between you and the enemy that will stop bullets, concealment is something between you and the enemy that blocks visibility.  If you forget this and treat concealment as cover, some clever opponent may figure out where you are and shoot you through whatever you're using as concealment.

3e uses these terms in this way because the designers adopted them from real life.



			
				Stogoe said:
			
		

> Covered by mist.




Concealment.



			
				Stogoe said:
			
		

> Concealed by the wall.




Depends on what the wall's made of.  Drywall, plywood, or aluminum siding?  Concealment.  Double layer of sandbags or steel reinforced concrete?  Cover (against small arms, anyway).


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