# Making It in the RPG Industry



## jasper (Jul 13, 2020)

Nice article. At Dragon*Con in the scific track the authors had a similar idea. You don't need awards just 5k to 10K steady fans who buy your work. I have dropped $10 for a Kickstarter book up to $100 for games. So yes you can make a living doing this. But please take business classes and what ever classes you need in your field.


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## JohnnyZemo (Jul 13, 2020)

Hey, just FYI, your math is wrong in a couple of places. If DriveThruRPG takes 35% of your $135,000, that's $47,250 they take, not $35,000.

If you want to have $100,000 left after they take their 35%, you need to make about $153,846.


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## talien (Jul 13, 2020)

JohnnyZemo said:


> Hey, just FYI, your math is wrong in a couple of places. If DriveThruRPG takes 35% of your $135,000, that's $47,250 they take, not $35,000.
> 
> If you want to have $100,000 left after they take their 35%, you need to make about $153,846.



Oops, thank you, I'll update it!


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## philreed (Jul 13, 2020)

I've run seven personal projects in 2020, six of which have been delivered. (#7 closed late last week and I'll send the review PDF to backers this coming weekend.) So far, for 2020, the Kickstarter funding has hit about $90,000 across those seven projects, so I don't think your goal of eleven projects in a year is impossible. Challenging, yes, but not impossible.

Of course, a large percentage of that goes to expenses -- artwork, taxes (so many taxes), software, hardware -- so my numbers aren't quite as impressive as they first sound. To hit your 1,000 fans/$100/year goal, I suspect I'd need to be roughly twice where I am in terms of funding.


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## Jeff Carpenter (Jul 13, 2020)

I think you missed one that seems somewhat obvious, running a RPG website.


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## Morrus (Jul 13, 2020)

The 1,000 fans theory definitely holds true for small enterprises. In fact, 1,000 true fans can be better than 10,000 casual fans. 

Of course, getting 1,000 true fans isn't necessarily easy. It can take a long time and a lot of work.


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## Morrus (Jul 13, 2020)

Jeff Carpenter said:


> I think you missed one that seems somewhat obvious, running a RPG website.



Well, that's not necessarily super profitable in itself, but it helps support the rest and vice versa. It's all part of a whole. Of the above, I do Patreon (three Patreons), DTRPG, and Kickstarter (usually two or so a year). The website, podcast, etc. are all part of the general picture, but they aren't the money earning bits themselves.


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## philreed (Jul 13, 2020)

Morrus said:


> The website, podcast, etc. are all part of the general picture, but they aren't the money earning bits themselves.




I can totally see where those are the marketing arm that support the efforts that generate the real revenue.


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## Morrus (Jul 13, 2020)

philreed said:


> I can totally see where those are the marketing arm that support the efforts that generate the real revenue.



And vice versa of course. The revenue generating stuff helps you do the non-revenue generating stuff.


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## Zaukrie (Jul 13, 2020)

I can vouch for the difficulty in starting..... Like, I can't pay artists or editors at this point. Even being sure what your focus is is hard. I thought I was going to do a series on reusing your garbage as terrain, but we aren't playing in person for a long time, so I'm using roll20..... So then I do stuff, short videos with one point, on roll20, but getting traffic is tough, even with people asking the same questions on Facebook groups everyday...

My first product on dmsguild needs reformatting and editing, but I bit off so much with it.... That my next product was easier to write from scratch than editing that one.....


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## Michael Dean (Jul 13, 2020)

This may be one of the best and most informative of the articles on the subject that I've seen.  I'm happy to see some of the success stories.


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## Paragon Lost (Jul 13, 2020)

Morrus said:


> Well, that's not necessarily super profitable in itself, but it helps support the rest and vice versa. It's all part of a whole. Of the above, I do Patreon (three Patreons), DTRPG, and Kickstarter (usually two or so a year). The website, podcast, etc. are all part of the general picture, but they aren't the money earning bits themselves.




 Yep, my impressions from others who have run successful websites is that money like my once a year subscription/support fee aren't really making things profitable for you, just helping the costs out of running the site. I like supporting this outlet because it's a gathering of information in one location  of the hobby I love. So I feel it's worth the yearly fee to help support.

 Want to point out I mention "yearly fee" a couple times. That's because I don't care for monthly subscription fees. They feel like a constant drain on my monthly income, if that makes sense? It's why I tend to skip on Patreons and other monthly subscription fees. I try to mitigate those as much as possible. When you're helping pay off four kids who went through university in the states, you have to think long term planning. (Mutters something about a half million in fees that will be paid off by the time I hit 85)


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## Paragon Lost (Jul 13, 2020)

Michael Dean said:


> This may be one of the best and most informative of the articles on the subject that I've seen.  I'm happy to see some of the success stories.




 If you enjoy that, Google Gaming Ballistic that Douglas Cole runs. He designs and does Kickstarter's for GURPS and The Fantasy Trip. He does really good layouts at the end of each Kickstarter breaking down where the money went, how much he made if any etc. He also posts over here off and on. Really a nice guy and I really appreciate his insights on what he goes through with each Kickstarter.


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## univoxs (Jul 13, 2020)

What I don't like about this is that this requires these creators to be entertainers. Some people don't like to engage at that level. It also opens up their personal lives to the public and not everyone wants to share that much. Not everyone is entertaining at all levels either. Someone could be put off from an individuals work based on the cut of their jib, having never seen the quality work itself. I am guilty of that, I don't like live play podcasts so I am put off by anything from Critical Role. 

I feel bad on the one hand for up and coming creatives because they are expected to do so much more of the back end work themselves before getting any sort of notice from major companies. This is true in every sector of entertainment. While its nice there are less gate keepers and things are more diversified, not everyone is well versed in the other production tools and skills needed to "make it", whatever that means. Having no interest in that aspect of the industry could really hurt because if one lacks passion for running a social media machine, I would expect it to be done poorly.

I have a theory that this diversification causes another problem: The current landscape generates a glut of unpolished products, this creates a lot of noise in the space and gives possibly too many options. There is an idea called choice paralysis where, when one has too many choices, it becomes hard to make any decisions at all, for fear of making a wrong one. This leads to either making no decision, choosing nothing, or choosing the most recognized product because it has a proven track record, rather than taking a chance. 

I feel personally blessed to have too many options, though my wallet is less enthusiastic. And like many hobbies, there has not been a better time, but for their sake, I wish writers could just focus on writing.


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## wingsandsword (Jul 13, 2020)

Yeah, for a while my boy wanted to be a YouTube star.  I told him he couldn't upload anything to YouTube (he was about 10 when this thought hit him), but he could make all the videos he wanted.

After playing around with his iPad and trying to record himself talking, or playing with his toys, or whatever idea for a video he came up with, he realized that making a good video involved a lot more than just setting a camera in place and saying or doing whatever he wanted.

I've told him that if he really wants to do it when he gets older, I'll help, but he needs to understand that it is a real job, and isn't just talking to a camera or playing around for money.  He's not really that interested in it anymore, once he realized the work that would be involved, and that the people who make the videos he watches actually have to put a decent amount of work into them.


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## Ulfgeir (Jul 13, 2020)

Krister Sundelin (the guy that made The Troubleshooters) used to say that the best way to get a small fortune by making rpg's is to start  with a large fortune.


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## Morrus (Jul 13, 2020)

Ulfgeir said:


> Krister Sundelin (the guy that made The Troubleshooters) used to say that the best way to get a small fortune by making rpg's is to start  with a large fortune.



That meme is as old as the industry. It is perfectly possible to make a profit in RPGs, especially for a small company with few overheads.


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## imagineGod (Jul 13, 2020)

When I was a youth, I had dreams of living of comic books and role playing books. Nowadays, not anymore, since only a regular day job in better paying industries can offer the extra income to survive writing games or drawing comics. A truly sad reality, this.


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## imagineGod (Jul 13, 2020)

Morrus said:


> The 1,000 fans theory definitely holds true for small enterprises. In fact, 1,000 true fans can be better than 10,000 casual fans.
> 
> Of course, getting 1,000 true fans isn't necessarily easy. It can take a long time and a lot of work.




Two popular reliable Kickstarters are Shane Lacy Hensley of Savage Worlds fame (his publishing arm is Pinnacle Entertainment). and Monte Cook, formerly of WoTC, now of Monte Cook Games. Others like John WIck's 7th Sea 2nd Edition were just one hit wonders, though Khitai did well but so far below its predecessor.

Monte Cook is the safest bet since he has between 3000 and 4000 financially worthy fans, and these help successfully fund each of his Kickstarters to the tune of anywhere around half a million US Dollars. The fans are also dedicated enough to get the Version 2 after five years of Version 1.

April 2019 Kickstarter Arcana of the Ancients (Numenera for D&D5e) with 5536 fans and $521,207

*CORE NUMENERA SERIES*
September 2019, Kickstarter Numenera Limimal Shores (more regions) with 2595 fants £378,408
October 2017 Kickstarter Numenera Discovery and Destiny with 4185 fans and $84,5258
September 2015 Kicsktarter Numenera Into the NInth World (regions books) with 3317 fans and $417,560
December 2014 funded Kickstarter Numenera Boxset with 1985 fans and $286,565
September 2012 Kicksarter Numenera (the 1st Cypher Edition) with 4658 fans and $517,255


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## Paragon Lost (Jul 13, 2020)

imagineGod said:


> Two popular reliable Kickstarters are Shane Lacy Hensley of Savage Worlds fame (his publishing arm is Pinnacle Entertainment). and Monte Cook, formerly of WoTC, now of Monte Cook Games. Others like John WIck's 7th Sea 2nd Edition were just one hit wonders, though Khitai did well but so far below its predecessor.
> 
> Monte Cook is the safest bet since he has between 3000 and 4000 financially worthy fans, and these help successfully fund each of his Kickstarters to the tune of anywhere around half a million US Dollars. The fans are also dedicated enough to get the Version 2 after five years of Version 1.
> 
> ...




MCG and Pinnacle are the exceptions really and aren't the norm. Great examples of small successful companies that make great use of the tools out there to excel.


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## Morrus (Jul 14, 2020)

imagineGod said:


> Two popular reliable Kickstarters are Shane Lacy Hensley of Savage Worlds fame (his publishing arm is Pinnacle Entertainment). and Monte Cook, formerly of WoTC, now of Monte Cook Games. Others like John WIck's 7th Sea 2nd Edition were just one hit wonders, though Khitai did well but so far below its predecessor.




They‘re probably a little too big. MCG has a half dozen full time employees. The 1000 true fans theory assumes one person (Maybe a few freelancers).


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## dchart (Jul 14, 2020)

Do I need to link to xkcd's Survivorship Bias comic?

If you want to answer the question of whether this is a realistic path, rather than one in which you could strike it lucky, you need to look at people other than the big success stories, and see how much time they put into it, how good they are, and what sort of percentage grow to become actually self-supporting. Given the first link in the article, Owen K. C. Stephens's Patreon would be a good place to start. $1,300 per month is not negligible, but it isn't a proper living. And how many people can get to that? Owen spent decades building his brand and honing his skills, after all. Dean Spencer is also making about $1,300 per month, with stock art rather than words, and he has been building that up for about five years now. I don't know how much they make through DTRPG (and Open Gaming, in Owen's case) on top of that, from the same material.

This article answers the question "can you make a living this way?". The answer is "Yes", which is worth knowing. However, the more interesting question, I think, is "how much money are you likely to make this way if you are talented and hardworking?", and to answer that you need to look at a broader range of people. You can become a billionaire by writing children's fiction (just ask J. K. Rowling), but you are unlikely to earn enough to take you over the poverty line, even if you get published. What do the broader numbers look like for RPGs? I don't know.


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## Michael Dean (Jul 14, 2020)

univoxs said:


> What I don't like about this is that this requires these creators to be entertainers. Some people don't like to engage at that level. It also opens up their personal lives to the public and not everyone wants to share that much. Not everyone is entertaining at all levels either. Someone could be put off from an individuals work based on the cut of their jib, having never seen the quality work itself. I am guilty of that, I don't like live play podcasts so I am put off by anything from Critical Role.
> 
> I feel bad on the one hand for up and coming creatives because they are expected to do so much more of the back end work themselves before getting any sort of notice from major companies. This is true in every sector of entertainment. While its nice there are less gate keepers and things are more diversified, not everyone is well versed in the other production tools and skills needed to "make it", whatever that means. Having no interest in that aspect of the industry could really hurt because if one lacks passion for running a social media machine, I would expect it to be done poorly.




My wife's cousin is an artist trying to make a go of it full time.  The amount of work he has to put in on the socializing level to get noticed probably consumes at least as much of his time as making art.  He's constantly working the phones to get commissions, getting into art fairs, travel, holding art shows in galleries, social media, etc.  Entertaining people and engaging with the public is hard-wired into the profession.


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## Jimmy Dick (Jul 14, 2020)

This was a rather informative article that explains quite a bit about things I wondered about. I am not surprised at the amount of face time that has to be invested in business. Personal connections have always been an important part of the business world in any segment of it.


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## Morrus (Jul 14, 2020)

univoxs said:


> What I don't like about this is that this requires these creators to be entertainers. Some people don't like to engage at that level. It also opens up their personal lives to the public and not everyone wants to share that much. Not everyone is entertaining at all levels either. Someone could be put off from an individuals work based on the cut of their jib, having never seen the quality work itself. I am guilty of that, I don't like live play podcasts so I am put off by anything from Critical Role.
> 
> I feel bad on the one hand for up and coming creatives because they are expected to do so much more of the back end work themselves before getting any sort of notice from major companies. This is true in every sector of entertainment. While its nice there are less gate keepers and things are more diversified, not everyone is well versed in the other production tools and skills needed to "make it", whatever that means. Having no interest in that aspect of the industry could really hurt because if one lacks passion for running a social media machine, I would expect it to be done poorly.
> 
> ...



That's really a consequence of one person doing everything. They might be a good writer, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're a good accountant, for example. Being the figurehead is just one of many hats a self-employed person has to do, whether they're a plumber or a game designer.


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## Jeff Carpenter (Jul 14, 2020)

Again this is a great article and appreciate all the insight.

Timing wise I just saw that the publisher Lamentations of the Flame Princess is in dire straights. Illustrating the difficulty of everything in the artical and showing one wrong move can sink your RPG buisness.


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## MNblockhead (Jul 14, 2020)

I get where you are coming from, but in my experience as a customer/patron/subscriber, I've not found it to be true. Over the past few years I've become more selective and targeted in my hobby spending and I find that while quality varies greatly, the cream does raise to the top. When I find a creator doing great work, one advantage of supporting them with a subscription is that they are more likely to have the financial security and incentive to ensure good quality. Also, because their reputation is so much front and center, I think many creators are more personally invested in the quality of their work. 

When a fan/subscriber notes an error, a creator is much more responsive than many publishers can be. For digital material, this is much easier of course, but also, many creators will make the digital version of a print product available first giving invested fans who are eager to get the product ASAP time to give feedback and correction. Many fan relish the opportunity to be involved in the creative process.  The 1000 fans are not only sources of income but resources of play testing, editing, and proof reading. 

A benefit of the "problem" of diversification is that I don't feel like I need to purchase broadly. And creators do not need to have large numbers of customers to do well. I'll also say that I don't think that creators should be doing this to get the attention of big companies. Many do better on their own. Yes, you have to hustle to make it. What's new? Doesn't matter if you have your own handyman business, are a painter, or a solo/small practice law firm. You have to hustle the get clients and to keep them. 



univoxs said:


> What I don't like about this is that this requires these creators to be entertainers. Some people don't like to engage at that level. It also opens up their personal lives to the public and not everyone wants to share that much. Not everyone is entertaining at all levels either. Someone could be put off from an individuals work based on the cut of their jib, having never seen the quality work itself. I am guilty of that, I don't like live play podcasts so I am put off by anything from Critical Role.
> 
> I feel bad on the one hand for up and coming creatives because they are expected to do so much more of the back end work themselves before getting any sort of notice from major companies. This is true in every sector of entertainment. While its nice there are less gate keepers and things are more diversified, not everyone is well versed in the other production tools and skills needed to "make it", whatever that means. Having no interest in that aspect of the industry could really hurt because if one lacks passion for running a social media machine, I would expect it to be done poorly.
> 
> ...


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## Dire Bare (Jul 14, 2020)

Jeff Carpenter said:


> Again this is a great article and appreciate all the insight.
> 
> Timing wise I just saw that the publisher Lamentations of the Flame Princess is in dire straights. Illustrating the difficulty of everything in the artical and showing one wrong move can sink your RPG buisness.




There are several lessons to be learned from Lamentations of the Flame Princess. Changes in the global economy, politics, and pandemics can punch some serious holes in a once thriving business . . . things largely out of your control as an artist. The bigger you get, and if you transition from sole artist to game company, the more impact the randomness of life can have.

The other lesson is . . . don't knowingly work with other artists of questionable morality and action. If you discover one of your partners is an awful human being, don't defend them and their right to be awful, and continue working with them as before. And, don't be awful yourself.


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## Dire Bare (Jul 14, 2020)

univoxs said:


> What I don't like about this is that this requires these creators to be entertainers. Some people don't like to engage at that level. It also opens up their personal lives to the public and not everyone wants to share that much. Not everyone is entertaining at all levels either. Someone could be put off from an individuals work based on the cut of their jib, having never seen the quality work itself. I am guilty of that, I don't like live play podcasts so I am put off by anything from Critical Role.
> 
> I feel bad on the one hand for up and coming creatives because they are expected to do so much more of the back end work themselves before getting any sort of notice from major companies. This is true in every sector of entertainment. While its nice there are less gate keepers and things are more diversified, not everyone is well versed in the other production tools and skills needed to "make it", whatever that means. Having no interest in that aspect of the industry could really hurt because if one lacks passion for running a social media machine, I would expect it to be done poorly.
> 
> ...




If you want to pursue a career as an artist . . . you don't HAVE to be the "entertainer" or social maven . . . . but you are a lot less likely to be successful at any level as a solo artist, and that's been true long before the rise of social media. More traditional artistic career paths exist for a reason. Fancy yourself a writer, but aren't interested in entertaining on YouTube? Shop your work to publishers instead of going it on your own. Whether you are a writer, game designer, cartographer, or visual artist . . . you can still pursue a career in art the traditional way, going through the gatekeepers.

Social media allows you to skip those middlemen . . . but you have to be savvy and willing to leverage social media and channel your charisma as an "entertainer".

Either way, social media "influencer" or traditional publishing . . . . it's hard to make decent money as an artist. It's harder to _sustain_ a livable income over a career. It's why so few manage to pull it off.


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## Dire Bare (Jul 14, 2020)

philreed said:


> I've run seven personal projects in 2020, six of which have been delivered. (#7 closed late last week and I'll send the review PDF to backers this coming weekend.) So far, for 2020, the Kickstarter funding has hit about $90,000 across those seven projects, so I don't think your goal of eleven projects in a year is impossible. Challenging, yes, but not impossible.
> 
> Of course, a large percentage of that goes to expenses -- artwork, taxes (so many taxes), software, hardware -- so my numbers aren't quite as impressive as they first sound. To hit your 1,000 fans/$100/year goal, I suspect I'd need to be roughly twice where I am in terms of funding.



This is the kicker right here. As an artist, even if you are technically "raking in" over $100K in a given year . . . . how much of that are you paying to other people for layout, editing, art, advertising/marketing, tax prep, etc, etc . . .

And how sustainable is making $100K per year, and then maintaining that over a career? There are plenty of artists in various fields who hit it big and made a ton of money . . . only to end up penniless and broke when it comes time to retire and health begins to fail.


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## Myrdin Potter (Jul 14, 2020)

Kevin Crawford is probably my best example of what is takes to succeed at the model. His publishing arm Sine Nomine does regular Kickstarters and delivers consistently high quality products that his fans then buy.

It also helps to live where the government provides healthcare.


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## LordEntrails (Jul 14, 2020)

talien said:


> They’ll need at least four years to build that fan base and create a content stream.



Any data to support his? I don't really doubt it, but the one timeline you gave for DMDave was less than 2 years...


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## Morrus (Jul 14, 2020)

LordEntrails said:


> Any data to support his? I don't really doubt it, but the one timeline you gave for DMDave was less than 2 years...



DMDave has spent a LOT on Facebook ads. That can get expensive. That has to have hit his bottom line (though at 13K/month, just spending one month's revenue on Facebook ads will net a good return -- the more money you have, the easier it is to make more).


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## TheSword (Jul 14, 2020)

I totally agree with this. I would suggest that this is effectively a smaller scale version of Paizo’s model since the inception of Pathfinder. Yes their core books were successful but the real money came from releasing an adventure book by monthly on subscription. They broadened this to include maps, pawns, area guides.

When I compare the money I spent with Paizo on these additional products, APs, maps etc to what I spent on the core books, it dwarved it.

To be clear I mean that Paizo use a regular subscription model with a smaller number of fans paying a large amount of money (not that they are limited only to a 1000, or follow one backer)


£8 a month is a much easier way to reach your £100 goal than a small number of larger products.


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## Cergorach (Jul 15, 2020)

Morrus said:


> It is perfectly possible to make a profit in RPGs, especially for a small company with few overheads.



Is it? I know that there are quite a few small companies that operate that way and make a 'profit', the question is: "What are they paying themselves and others?". We've had so many discussions about freelancers not earning much, the same is true for a lot of smaller companies, paying themselves peanuts because that's the industry 'standard'. Some small companies become somewhat larger companies, like Monte Cook Games. But it seems to me that folks are often only looking at the success stories and not at all those that failed and you never noticed. I suspect that very few small companies that start actually make a decent profit. In theory it could be done with the right people who have ALL the right skills, have the right idea, with the right sized target audience group, at the right time, in the right economy. In practice, most folks starting these small companies lack a lot of the skills or are just missing the right idea, started in the wrong economic period, or just are targeting a far to small audience...

There are a limited amount of potential customers, those have a limited pool to spend on RPG books (and other hobby articles), so these companies are all competing for a piece of the same pie. And it's often just down to who can capture the most audience for their own niche product, often ending up competing with others servicing the same niche. It all reminds me so much of the D20 glut we had after the OGL release. At least with KS people aren't printing a TON of books which don't end up selling all that much...


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## Morrus (Jul 15, 2020)

Cergorach said:


> Is it?



I’m doing it right now.


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## Neonchameleon (Jul 15, 2020)

Morrus said:


> I’m doing it right now.




On the other hand if you weren't @Morrus of ENWorld I don't think I'd ever have heard of WOIN in a way that made me give it a second glance. Don't get me wrong, this isn't a criticism in the slightest; you've put what appears to be a vast amount of work into the community and this raising the profile of any RPG projects you create is more than fair. But it does mean that you've offloaded a lot of the publicity costs into work you've already done which is not an asset most people have.


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## Cergorach (Jul 15, 2020)

Morrus said:


> I’m doing it right now.



Yes, but are you not an exception? How much is the success of your publishing company related to ENworld? How many of such community sites are there at that scale/noteriety? And how much time have you spend over the years on both and how much has that earned you that if you translate that to an hourly wage? Below or above a burger flipping salary at McD's?


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## Morrus (Jul 15, 2020)

Cergorach said:


> Yes, but are you not an exception? How much is the success of your publishing company related to ENworld? How many of such community sites are there at that scale/noteriety?



I mean, No True Scotsman is usually done with more subtlety.


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## Cergorach (Jul 15, 2020)

Morrus said:


> I mean, No True Scotsman is usually done with more subtlety.



The same could be said about deflection... ;-)

Your publishing 'arm' isn't representative for publishers, it came with an audience. Just like certain Youtube channels that start an RPG publishing business, a different service/business that eventually starts RPG publishing.


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## Morrus (Jul 15, 2020)

Cergorach said:


> The same could be said about deflection... ;-)
> 
> Your publishing 'arm' isn't representative for publishers, it came with an audience. Just like certain Youtube channels that start an RPG publishing business, a different service/business that eventually starts RPG publishing.



Every publisher is different, sure. My approach is one approach. Others have different methods; some work out better than others. Kickstarter is a massive boon.

The point still stands: it is possible to make a profit in RPGs if you're a small company with little in overheads.


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## Cergorach (Jul 15, 2020)

Morrus said:


> The point still stands: it is possible to make a profit in RPGs if you're a small company with little in overheads.



Ah... You mean it that way, it can be done under the right circumstances, skills, work, etc. I agree. But I'm arguing that most people lack the skills/circumstances/work to make it work.

In the same line, you can win the lottery... ;-) I'm just not buying lottery tickets, because the chances are so small and pointing at people that already have won the lottery is ignoring all the people who didn't...


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## Morrus (Jul 15, 2020)

Cergorach said:


> Ah... You mean it that way, it can be done under the right circumstances, skills, work, etc. I agree. But I'm arguing that most people lack the skills/circumstances/work to make it work.



Businesses don’t run themselves, if that’s what you mean. 



> In the same line, you can win the lottery... ;-) I'm just not buying lottery tickets, because the chances are so small and pointing at people that already have won the lottery is ignoring all the people who didn't...



I can’t speak for anybody else, but what small success I have had was not a blind lottery win.


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## dchart (Jul 15, 2020)

Morrus said:


> I can’t speak for anybody else, but what small success I have had was not a blind lottery win.



It's difficult to ask this question without it sounding rude, but: How do you know?

I mean, I know you put a lot of work in, and time, and talent. But so did a lot of other people who weren't successful. How do you know that the difference between them and you _wasn't_ just blind luck? (I'll settle for "plausible evidence"; I'm not after philosophical certainty.)

This is the fundamental problem with assessing anything by looking at the successes. It is important to know that success is possible, and they tell you that. But, by themselves, they are very, very limited in what they can tell you about the conditions needed for success. You really need to know what they had that the failures didn't.


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## talien (Jul 15, 2020)

LordEntrails said:


> Any data to support his? I don't really doubt it, but the one timeline you gave for DMDave was less than 2 years...



That was based off of the assumption you go to a four-year university (so in other words you'd start as soon as you enter school and hopefully grow your base by the time you finish your degree). DMDave is proof it's possible, but as Russ said it costs money which you may not have that early in your career.


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## Morrus (Jul 15, 2020)

dchart said:


> It's difficult to ask this question without it sounding rude, but: How do you know?



No wonder most creators have imposter syndrome!


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## dchart (Jul 15, 2020)

Morrus said:


> I mean, you're now the third person in this thread dismissing my work as luck. No wonder most creators have imposter syndrome!



OK, let me give you a contrast case. Owen K. C. Stephens. I know you know who he is, so the link is for people who don't.

His talent is undeniable. It's obvious when you read his work, or his resume. The level of work that he has put in is also undeniable. I mean, he put out huge amounts for Rogue Genius Games, and later worked for, IIRC, three different RPG publishers simultaneously. And he's been doing this for years. I am pretty sure he's been doing it for longer than you have.

But he's not in a strong position at the moment.

Now, if luck is not the factor making the difference between your success and his failure, and you are confident of this, you can presumably point to the thing that he has done wrong — the bad decision that he made, that you avoided because you were wiser.

So, what is it?


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## Morrus (Jul 15, 2020)

dchart said:


> OK, let me give you a contrast case. Owen K. C. Stephens. I know you know who he is, so the link is for people who don't.
> 
> His talent is undeniable. It's obvious when you read his work, or his resume. The level of work that he has put in is also undeniable. I mean, he put out huge amounts for Rogue Genius Games, and later worked for, IIRC, three different RPG publishers simultaneously. And he's been doing this for years. I am pretty sure he's been doing it for longer than you have.
> 
> ...



I have absolutely no desire to comment on somebody else's career or personal finances, even if I was intimately familiar with his situation enough to do so (which I'm not).


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## TheSword (Jul 15, 2020)

dchart said:


> OK, let me give you a contrast case. Owen K. C. Stephens. I know you know who he is, so the link is for people who don't.
> 
> His talent is undeniable. It's obvious when you read his work, or his resume. The level of work that he has put in is also undeniable. I mean, he put out huge amounts for Rogue Genius Games, and later worked for, IIRC, three different RPG publishers simultaneously. And he's been doing this for years. I am pretty sure he's been doing it for longer than you have.
> 
> ...



No one can break down a career that way, and even what they thought was a ‘big break’ could have come about through another means. I don’t think we have the info about other people’s careers to analyze them so specifically.


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## TheSword (Jul 15, 2020)

Why wou


Cergorach said:


> Ah... You mean it that way, it can be done under the right circumstances, skills, work, etc. I agree. But I'm arguing that most people lack the skills/circumstances/work to make it work.
> 
> In the same line, you can win the lottery... ;-) I'm just not buying lottery tickets, because the chances are so small and pointing at people that already have won the lottery is ignoring all the people who didn't...



Why would you expect a person lacking skills and favourable circumstances to be successful at something?

If I can’t cook, am a fussy eater and live in a small village of 200 why would I expect to be successful at operating a restaurant.


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## dchart (Jul 15, 2020)

Morrus said:


> I have absolutely no desire to comment on somebody else's career or personal finances, even if I was intimately familiar with his situation enough to do so (which I'm not).



That's fair. But in that case, what are your grounds for thinking that luck is _not_ the critical factor in your success?

Just to be clear, again, I'm not disputing the hard work, talent, and time that have gone into your success. I'm just arguing that there is good evidence that those are a very long way from being enough to allow one to make it in the RPG industry. Similarly, setting up a Patreon, publishing things on DTRPG, and running Kickstarters are all helpful, but we know, because we have examples to look at, that they do not always succeed. So what is the other factor? You are very clear that you are sure that it is not luck, at least not in your case, so what is it?

A really useful article on this topic would look at the people who have succeeded on this model, and are actually making a proper living, the people who are making some money — a nice sideline, but not a proper living — and people who have a hobby that makes them some pocket change. (The people making nothing at all are likely to be hard to find, but it would be worth including them if they were available.) Then it would look at what they have in common — what's the bare minimum needed to get anything back at all. (I would expect to find "talent" and "hard work" in that category, so the people who are making nothing would be a useful contrast class.) Next, it would look at what distinguishes the people who are making a living from the the people who have a nice sideline, and the people who have a nice sideline from the people who have a hobby with benefits. And that would be the really, really useful information that might tell us how to make the RPG industry a bit more viable. I have no idea what that information would be. The really depressing answer would be "luck", because that would basically mean that the talent and hard work just buy you a lottery ticket.


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## dchart (Jul 15, 2020)

Morrus said:


> No wonder most creators have imposter syndrome!



Actually, I'd like to address this directly, especially post-edit.

If you have a product that a number of people who are not your friends have bought, then you shouldn't have imposter syndrome. A Copper bestseller on DTRPG is certainly enough. That proves that you have created something that people appreciate, and that you are a real creator, not an imposter.

Thinking that, because you have an Adamantine bestseller, you must be a better creator, or at least more talented in some respect, than someone who only has Copper bestsellers, goes beyond the evidence, in my opinion. If one pushes the idea that commercial success in the RPG industry is not a matter of luck, but only based on talent and ability, then one is suggesting that RPG creators who are not making a living are not real creators; they are missing some of the essential talents.

And that would _certainly_ encourage imposter syndrome.


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## macd21 (Jul 15, 2020)

dchart said:


> That's fair. But in that case, what are your grounds for thinking that luck is _not_ the critical factor in your success?
> 
> Just to be clear, again, I'm not disputing the hard work, talent, and time that have gone into your success. I'm just arguing that there is good evidence that those are a very long way from being enough to allow one to make it in the RPG industry. Similarly, setting up a Patreon, publishing things on DTRPG, and running Kickstarters are all helpful, but we know, because we have examples to look at, that they do not always succeed. So what is the other factor? You are very clear that you are sure that it is not luck, at least not in your case, so what is it?




That someone skilled and hardworking didn’t succeed doesn’t mean that another person’s success isn’t down to their success and hard work. You’re asking ’how do you know it’s not luck,’ but that’s a ridiculous question. Random circumstance and chance will factor into any career, in any industry, but that doesn’t mean that talent, education and dedication aren’t a factor.

There are a multitude of factors that lead to two equally talented designers having varying degrees of success. ‘Luck’ isn’t really relevant.


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## Jd Smith1 (Jul 15, 2020)

Morrus said:


> Businesses don’t run themselves, if that’s what you mean.




Which brings up a question: evidently you have the skills and personality to successfully run a business. 

Why did you pick RPGs as your business plan? That's certainly not a path to wealth, or even upper middle class.


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## LordEntrails (Jul 15, 2020)

dchart said:


> I'm just arguing that there is good evidence that those are a very long way from being enough to allow one to make it in the RPG industry.



I think that is true for _every _career/industry. Consider acting and other 'artistic' industries. I think few would argue that what applies in the RPG industry also applies there.

I will also state that I believe this applies in non-artistic industries as well. Engineering and IT I'm familiar with. And while in most cases (Dilbert Principle aside), talent and hard work are directly related to level of success, but they are also not the only factors. These other factors are hard to define, and imo, 'luck' seems to be as good as name for them as any.


macd21 said:


> You’re asking ’how do you know it’s not luck,’ but that’s a ridiculous question. Random circumstance and chance will factor into any career, in any industry, but that doesn’t mean that talent, education and dedication aren’t a factor.
> 
> There are a multitude of factors that lead to two equally talented designers having varying degrees of success. ‘Luck’ isn’t really relevant.



I disagree, neither is it a ridiculous question nor is it irrelevant, imo.

Edit: I think you are missing @dchart's point, he not say it is only luck, but that luck is a factor. That talent and hard work are required, but also 'luck'. You must be talented and hard working, but you also must be in the right place at the right time, you must be recognized by the right person/people, you must also be 'lucky'. Or at least not be 'unlucky'.

There are things that are out of a person's control, or that are nearly impossible to define (to various degrees). Seems like usng the term 'luck' to define these is as accurate as any other.


> Success or failure apparently brought by chance rather than through one's own actions.











						Dictionary.com Is The World’s Favorite Online Dictionary
					

Dictionary.com is the world’s leading online source for English definitions, pronunciations, word origins, idioms, Word of the Day, and more.




					www.lexico.com


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## Michael Dean (Jul 15, 2020)

Cergorach said:


> But it seems to me that folks are often only looking at the success stories and not at all those that failed and you never noticed. I suspect that very few small companies that start actually make a decent profit. In theory it could be done with the right people who have ALL the right skills, have the right idea, with the right sized target audience group, at the right time, in the right economy. In practice, most folks starting these small companies lack a lot of the skills or are just missing the right idea, started in the wrong economic period, or just are targeting a far to small audience...




You're pretty much describing small businesses in general.  There is a market for rpgs, but not everyone will be successful.


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## macd21 (Jul 15, 2020)

LordEntrails said:


> I disagree, neither  is it a ridiculous question nor is it irrelevant, imo.
> 
> Edit: I think you are missing @dchart's point, he not say it is only luck, but that luck is a factor. That talent and hard work are required, but also 'luck'. You must be talented and hard working, but you also must be in the right place at the right time, you must be recognized by the right person/people, you must also be 'lucky'. Or at least not be 'unlucky'.
> 
> ...




No, he's saying that luck is the _critical_ factor, and comparing the success levels of two people to try establish this, demanding one of them to explain what, if not luck, is the difference between the two. Sure, luck is always a factor. That was _my _point. Luck is a factor in every industry, not just RPGs. And asking someone to prove that their success wasn't down to luck (especially in the context of a comparison with someone else) is ridiculous. How do you establish that you weren't lucky? "Well, I worked hard, did a lot of research, double checked everything, put in long hours... but I guess maybe I was just lucky?"


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## dragoner (Jul 15, 2020)

Luck, skill, all play a part, we live in a deterministic universe, it took over 4 billions years for this moment to arrive. Much of the questions can be answered in business classes, and then you get fancy textbooks like "Global Business" to clutter your bookcase. Business classes are a good short-cut around the foot slog of learning by experience, something I went through becoming management before getting a degree. Interest in the field one is working in helps a great deal, though maybe too much leads to burn out, which is a real thing.


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## LordEntrails (Jul 15, 2020)

macd21 said:


> No, he's saying that luck is the _critical_ factor, and comparing the success levels of two people to try establish this, demanding one of them to explain what, if not luck, is the difference between the two. Sure, luck is always a factor. That was _my _point. Luck is a factor in every industry, not just RPGs. And asking someone to prove that their success wasn't down to luck (especially in the context of a comparison with someone else) is ridiculous. How do you establish that you weren't lucky? "Well, I worked hard, did a lot of research, double checked everything, put in long hours... but I guess maybe I was just lucky?"



I'll allow dchart to answer for himself, he seems quite capable of it. As for my view;

Your interpretation is not the same as mine, it seems you are placing an emphasis that I don't see. And you seem to be looking at or assuming absolutes. 

I see that luck is _only _the critical factor when everything else (talent, hard work, etc) has already been accounted for. It seems we all agree that luck _is _a factor, is there any disagreement on that? 

Luck seems to be a significant factor, but not the only one, or primary one. Significant factors seem, to me, to be worth discussing.


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## Maggan (Jul 15, 2020)

One of Sweden's most legendary athletes, when asked about how much luck was involved in his success, once said "it's funny, the harder I work, the more luck I have."

Maybe there's  truth to that, the harder you work the more luck you have in business.


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## Jd Smith1 (Jul 15, 2020)

Are there any unlucky people who are success stories?

Napoleon is said to have asked before considering a man for promotion to Marshal 'Is he lucky?'

Bill Gates is a truly skilled business man, but had he started out ten years earlier or later he would be a valued employee to someone else. But instead, he made his move at the exact time technology and the market came together. Henry Ford didn't invent much of anything, but he was the first one to combine the new concept of an assembly line, the horseless carriage, and mass marketing into an empire.

As a student of military history, luck is even more pronounced. Bad luck dogged Lee that fateful week in June/July 1863, for just one example. The Japanese Empire hit a brick wall in 1942 when a single seaplane had an engine failure, a plane whose sector the US task force was in.

Unlucky people do not succeed.


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## dragoner (Jul 15, 2020)

Orwell has the best quote about luck:

“No one I met at this time -- doctors, nurses, practicantes, or fellow-patients-- failed to assure me that a man who is shot through the neck and survives it, is the luckiest creature alive. I could not help thinking that it would be even luckier not to be shot at all.”    
- George Orwell, Homage to Catalonia

Possibly one of the most quotable people of the 20th century. People hate luck because it is non-quantifiable, and robs them of agency. Hard work is still important, persistence pays, it's the hammer that forges the steel, luck is more in the ore, or crucible.


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## dchart (Jul 16, 2020)

macd21 said:


> No, he's saying that luck is the _critical_ factor,



No, I'm not. I'm saying luck is one of the important factors.


macd21 said:


> and comparing the success levels of two people to try establish this, demanding one of them to explain what, if not luck, is the difference between the two. Sure, luck is always a factor. That was _my _point. Luck is a factor in every industry, not just RPGs. And asking someone to prove that their success wasn't down to luck (especially in the context of a comparison with someone else) is ridiculous. How do you establish that you weren't lucky? "Well, I worked hard, did a lot of research, double checked everything, put in long hours... but I guess maybe I was just lucky?"



As dragoner said later, people hate to acknowledge luck when they have succeeded, because it robs them of agency. (When you fail, however, it's great.) That's why the comparison is useful.

"Well, I worked hard, but so did he. I'm a talented writer, but so is he — have you seen his [Book Name Here]. I did a lot of research, but so did he. I put in long hours, but so did he. I kept at it for years without much to show for it, but so did he. Hmm. I guess I was just lucky."

Now, obviously, the speaker wasn't _just_ lucky, but that's the factor that made the difference between financial success and its absence.

In terms of financial success, I would wager that you cannot find a single example of someone who has been a financial success without luck (in the sense of positive factors outside their control). You can find people who have been a financial success based on, essentially, pure luck. (Lottery winners, or people with inherited wealth.) Thus, the only thing that consistently distinguishes financially successful people from financially unsuccessful people is luck.

Of course, that is loading a lot into "luck", and it probably shouldn't be asked to support that much. There might well be other factors that are controllable, that people do not often think about. It would be nice to know what they are, but in order to find out, you have to look at people who were not successful, and compare them to people who were. We do, in fact, have good evidence that talent and hard work substantially increase your chances of being a success, as does competent financial management. It would be an equally serious mistake to neglect them and claim that it is just a matter of pure luck.

There are two reasons why I am harping on this point.

First, the article gives the distinct impression that, if you work hard and have a Patreon, Kickstarter, podcast, and stuff on DTRPG, you too are likely to make a living in the RPG industry. This is not true, and we know it is not true, because we have lots of examples of people who are not making a living despite doing it. It is _possible_, and your chances are rather better than your chances of winning the lottery, but they seem to be lower than your chances of rolling a critical hit. (Probably more likely than a party of 1st level characters taking down Orcus, as well. Maybe 3rd level?)

Second, if people who have been a financial success in RPGs claim that their success is all down to their talent and hard work, then that implicitly says that the people who are unsuccessful are not talented enough, or not working hard enough. You'd better believe that the people who have not succeeded see that implication very clearly, even if the successful people do not notice it. I think that is unfair, and I think it is demonstrably unfair.


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## Baron Opal II (Jul 16, 2020)

Jd Smith1 said:


> Are there any unlucky people who are success stories?



Adolphe Sax comes to mind.


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## LordEntrails (Jul 16, 2020)

Baron Opal II said:


> Adolphe Sax comes to mind.



Was he unlucky because of all the things that almost killed him? Or was he lucky because of the things that did not kill him?

Seems like it depends upon your perspective


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## Jd Smith1 (Jul 16, 2020)

I drive by a perfect example regularly.

I live on lakefront acreage. A few years ago a very talented guy opened a welding shop next to the largest public dock and very near the largest private marina, on the lake. He offered custom boat docks (by law, only steel-frame docks can be used on the lake, which means custom work), custom trailers, trailer repairs, house boat frames and platform boat frames, repairs of same, and so forth.

The area is booming. Houses on the lake are being snapped up, boats are selling fast, fishing was excellent. He was perfectly placed to fill a lucrative niche.

And then we got hit with five drought years in a row. Four years of 100/100: 100+ days with 100+ temperatures in a row (which dries things up fast).

We had mesquites twenty feet tall in what used to be the deepest part of the lake.  Then, as was customary in Texas, we had a flood, and since then the lake has stayed full, houses on the lake are being snapped up, boats are selling fast, fishing is excellent.

But he went broke long before the drought was halfway over.

The sole factor was luck. Wrong time, wrong place. There was no way he could have known that the worst drought in 60+ years was about to hit. No amount of skill or hard work would have created a demand.


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## macd21 (Jul 16, 2020)

dchart said:


> No, I'm not. I'm saying luck is one of the important factors.




You previously said:



dchart said:


> That's fair. But in that case, what are your grounds for thinking that luck is _not_ the critical factor in your success?






dchart said:


> As dragoner said later, people hate to acknowledge luck when they have succeeded, because it robs them of agency. (When you fail, however, it's great.) That's why the comparison is useful.
> 
> "Well, I worked hard, but so did he. I'm a talented writer, but so is he — have you seen his [Book Name Here]. I did a lot of research, but so did he. I put in long hours, but so did he. I kept at it for years without much to show for it, but so did he. Hmm. I guess I was just lucky."
> 
> Now, obviously, the speaker wasn't _just_ lucky, but that's the factor that made the difference between financial success and its absence.




Or not. For one thing, we don't know how much hard work or research each of them did. So many factors that have nothing to do with random chance - things like target markets, marketing strategies, budgeting choices, choice of business partner etc. When a kickstarter fails, it's not usually down to luck, it's down to the kickstarters screwing up their presentation, or just having a product no one wants. When a kickstarter succeeds, but then fails to deliver product, it's usually because the kickstarter screwed up their budget, or cut corners they shouldn't have, or were just never ready in the first place. And kickstarters who succeed and deliver, but then fail to make any money, usually screwed up their budgeting and promised too much. And you can see the difference in experienced kickstarters, those that have a few successful one under their belt - they improve their presentation and budgeting, get better suppliers and distributors, don't promise too much etc. Sure, sometimes a kickstarter failis because of bad luck - but usually success is a result of skill, not chance.


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## dchart (Jul 16, 2020)

First, asking the question "How do you know luck was not the critical factor?" does not mean that I think it is. It means that I would like to know why he thinks it isn't. Those are very different. (It does mean that I think luck _could_ be the critical factor, but I don't think we disagree about that.)


macd21 said:


> Sure, sometimes a kickstarter failis because of bad luck - but usually success is a result of skill, not chance.



On this, we simply disagree. I think skill has less to do with success than people would like to think.


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## talien (Jul 16, 2020)

dchart said:


> First, the article gives the distinct impression that, if you work hard and have a Patreon, Kickstarter, podcast, and stuff on DTRPG, you too are likely to make a living in the RPG industry. This is not true, and we know it is not true, because we have lots of examples of people who are not making a living despite doing it. It is _possible_, and your chances are rather better than your chances of winning the lottery, but they seem to be lower than your chances of rolling a critical hit. (Probably more likely than a party of 1st level characters taking down Orcus, as well. Maybe 3rd level?)
> 
> Second, if people who have been a financial success in RPGs claim that their success is all down to their talent and hard work, then that implicitly says that the people who are unsuccessful are not talented enough, or not working hard enough. You'd better believe that the people who have not succeeded see that implication very clearly, even if the successful people do not notice it. I think that is unfair, and I think it is demonstrably unfair.



At no point in the article did I write the words "you too are likely to make a living in the RPG industry." I said it was possible. I gave examples of people who are doing it.

I explained my math on what it takes to get to the $100K on any one of those platforms. It is a long grind of marketing and incremental sales building a brand without a lot of income for years. 

Build your brand over several years, increase your followers, and by the time you're ready to start a full-time job you MIGHT have a platform that can sustain you, if you keep your expenses low. The article shows what you need to get there. This isn't in any way unique to gaming, it's part of the Internet economy -- all the articles I linked to are models applied to other creative industries like musicians and artists. 

What I didn't discuss, because it's a personal question for each creative, is the level of debt you're willing to sustain in the meantime. A spouse, kids, other dependents, car and house loans, etc. eat away at the $100K calculation. Frankly it's a young person's game. If you're an older creative jumping into the Internet, it's going to be a lot harder with a lot of debt. 

I plan to interview folks to dig at exactly how people are able to sustain their business models, so look for follow-up articles if creators are willing to share. So far, nobody wants to (understandably) share the secrets of their success, but I'll keep at it.


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## LordEntrails (Jul 16, 2020)

Also very timely and realted is Egg's interview he posted here; Express Yourself - Dungeon Masters Guild | Dungeon Masters Guild


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## dragoner (Jul 16, 2020)

Maybe somewhat relative, WOTC artist Karla Ortiz just did a series of tweets about making it as an artist: On Art Careers and Pricing | Muddy Colors


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## MNblockhead (Jul 18, 2020)

As someone who put 10 years of my life into a business venture that kept my family fed and sheltered as well as that of my employees, but eventually had to be closed down, I'll say that hard work and luck are, of course, both important. It is too easy for us when we are successful to attribute our success to all hard work and too easy for others to attribute it to luck. Equally important, however, is making decisions that that help mitigate risk. I'm fortunate that my experience was marketable so that I could continue getting consulting contracts until I landed a decent and more secure job after I had to close my company down. 

It seems to me that mitigation is the most difficult thing for those pursuing careers in the TTRPG industry, or many artistic careers for that matter. It is easy to follow your bliss into penury, as the too-frequent, go-fund-me-style campaigns for some of our hobby's great talents sadly makes all too apparent. 

One benefit I see with the 1000-supporters model is that it involves building skills in marketing, sales, client management, communications, social media, and other skills that are marketable in other fields. If you are a creative who hates those things, then you should seriously consider how to develop other backup skills. What else are you interested in, or at least do not hate, that can keep you fed, sheltered, and insured?


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## macd21 (Jul 18, 2020)

MNblockhead said:


> As someone who put 10 years of my life into a business venture that kept my family fed and sheltered as well as that of my employees, but eventually had to be closed down, I'll say that hard work and luck are, of course, both important. It is too easy for us when we are successful to attribute our success to all hard work and too easy for others to attribute it to luck. Equally important, however, is making decisions that that help mitigate risk. I'm fortunate that my experience was marketable so that I could continue getting consulting contracts until I landed a decent and more secure job after I had to close my company down.
> 
> It seems to me that mitigation is the most difficult thing for those pursuing careers in the TTRPG industry, or many artistic careers for that matter. It is easy to follow your bliss into penury, as the too-frequent, go-fund-me-style campaigns for some of our hobby's great talents sadly makes all too apparent.
> 
> One benefit I see with the 1000-supporters model is that it involves building skills in marketing, sales, client management, communications, social media, and other skills that are marketable in other fields. If you are a creative who hates those things, then you should seriously consider how to develop other backup skills. What else are you interested in, or at least do not hate, that can keep you fed, sheltered, and insured?




This.

You can have two talented and hard working writers, and one succeeds and one doesn’t. But putting the difference down to luck is ignoring a huge number of factors. Simply producing a good product isn’t enough. You also need to know how to market it, produce it, supply it. The successful designer wasn’t just ‘lucky’ that he had a higher social media profile they let him market his product to a wider audience, that profile was something he’d cultivated. He didn’t just randomly pick a better printer, and he didn’t randomly pick a better distribution method.


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## pogre (Jul 18, 2020)

I am glad for the creatives putting in the work. 

There sure are much easier paths to making a decent living.

I'm sure they do it because they love it, but for me it would suck all the joy out of gaming. I love to fish, but I would not want to own a bait shop.


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## Von Ether (Jul 19, 2020)

A counterpoint: the 1,000 fans model can be a double edged sword. Be wary that pleasing them constantly can put a creative in an echo chamber or be at the mercy of entitled fans who know how much they control the purse strings / or refuse to understand how the sausage is made (like the taxes coming to Patreon.) And then as the "true fans" leave through changing tastes or literally dying off, the creative finds themselves starting from scratch.


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## Jd Smith1 (Jul 20, 2020)

Von Ether said:


> A counterpoint: the 1,000 fans model can be a double edged sword. Be wary that pleasing them constantly can put a creative in an echo chamber or be at the mercy of entitled fans who know how much the control the purse strings / or refuse to understand how the sausage is made (like the taxes coming to Patreon.) And then as the "true fans" leave through changing tastes or literally dying off, the creative finds themselves starting from scratch.




Very true. The first generation of gamers are graying.

And the gaming model is hampered by the fact that the hobby can be cyclic: many gamers tend to fall away from the hobby after leaving school, and return later in life when their lives have stabilized.

Meanwhile, electronic games, with a much larger customer base and much simpler social commitment in their hobby, continue to grow in complexity.

The doom of RPGs is that it requires a group of 3-6 liked-minded hobbyists meeting regularly, and the fact that that group will consume only a fraction of a product line (the players do not need to each have a book, and only the GM will buy scenarios).


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## MNblockhead (Jul 20, 2020)

Von Ether said:


> A counterpoint: the 1,000 fans model can be a double edged sword. Be wary that pleasing them constantly can put a creative in an echo chamber or be at the mercy of entitled fans who know how much they control the purse strings / or refuse to understand how the sausage is made (like the taxes coming to Patreon.) And then as the "true fans" leave through changing tastes or literally dying off, the creative finds themselves starting from scratch.




Sure, but again, what's new?  If you want to make money at something you are likely going to have to find a way to appeal to those who have the money to spend or work even hard to find those whose interests match your vision. And at least TTRPG fans tend to stick with a campaign or game system for a few months or even a few years if they are are really into it, which I assume they would be if they are bothering to subscribe to content for it. There are many other industries, creative or not, where tastes and fads change much more quickly. Bottom line: you have to hustle or partner with someone who will hustle for you. 

But one thing that I think may be different is with Kickstarters, you get a lot of backers who really have trouble understanding that it is not a pre-order system or, worse, those who think that their $100 investment entitles them to high levels of communication and attention. I can imagine that being incredibly draining and distracting. Add to that the fact that some creative types who start Kickstarters have no aptitude for project and product management and are not great with customer service and you can get a toxic brew of dysfunction and negativity.  Patreon is a gentler because the amount of money spend up front is generally low and it is easy to just cancel your support/subscription if you become unhappy. They may be some negativity in the comments or sent to you by e-mail, but not nearly the level of vitriol, doxxing, and threats of lawsuits I commonly see in Kickstarter.


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## macd21 (Jul 20, 2020)

MNblockhead said:


> Sure, but again, what's new?  If you want to make money at something you are likely going to have to find a way to appeal to those who have the money to spend or work even hard to find those whose interests match your vision. And at least TTRPG fans tend to stick with a campaign or game system for a few months or even a few years if they are are really into it, which I assume they would be if they are bothering to subscribe to content for it. There are many other industries, creative or not, where tastes and fads change much more quickly. Bottom line: you have to hustle or partner with someone who will hustle for you.
> 
> But one thing that I think may be different is with Kickstarters, you get a lot of backers who really have trouble understanding that it is not a pre-order system or, worse, those who think that their $100 investment entitles them to high levels of communication and attention. I can imagine that being incredibly draining and distracting. Add to that the fact that some creative types who start Kickstarters have no aptitude for project and product management and are not great with customer service and you can get a toxic brew of dysfunction and negativity.  Patreon is a gentler because the amount of money spend up front is generally low and it is easy to just cancel your support/subscription if you become unhappy. They may be some negativity in the comments or sent to you by e-mail, but not nearly the level of vitriol, doxxing, and threats of lawsuits I commonly see in Kickstarter.




I think the issue there is that some creatives need to recognise that KS is effectively a preorder service, and that their backers’ €100 investment entitles them to a lot of communication. That’s just the reality of Kickstarters these days. If a creative can’t get a handle on that, his first KS is likely to be his last.


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## Tapdance (Jul 20, 2020)

Overall it's a nice and thought provoking article  

Though the "luck" discussion has probably been more or less settled, I'll contribute that while hard work and needed skills are a must, and talent is preferable, true success really requires some X-factors (or luck if you will) to collaborate.  Wrong place and time, and the product won't sell.  Bad selling skills and insufficient marketing, and the product won't sell (enough).  Crappy layout and/or finished quality, and you screw your rep and don't survive long term.  
Any number of random events happening, and the product won't sell.  Pick the wrong people or manufacturers to work with, and you'll screw your rep or end up being unable to make enough money to survive long term.  And so on.  Like the story about the guy that set up a welding shop at a lakeshore, just when 5 years of drought were about to hit, I was told a story by a professor at my old University, about a start-up he mentored.  Company was about to be shut down due to lack of success, when one of the founders end up talking to a guy he's taking a leak next to in a restroom in the theater.  Turns out the guy is the CEO of a large company that at just that point in time, is looking for a supplier that offers exactly what this start-up is offering.  The large company becomes a customer of the start-up, and they survive and end up thriving because of this freak event. Imagine just how many random little things that could have changed that outcome, or prevented that conversation to have taken place as it did.  It's obviously not exactly the same as the RPG business, but every day billions of little things happen that shape our reality, and some of these end up aligning in such a way as to ensure that some people become successful, while other people with the same baseline of ability and effort etc. don't.


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## philreed (Jul 20, 2020)

Dire Bare said:


> This is the kicker right here. As an artist, even if you are technically "raking in" over $100K in a given year . . . . how much of that are you paying to other people for layout, editing, art, advertising/marketing, tax prep, etc, etc . . .




(Sorry for the slow response. I missed the notification.)

For me, I'm lucky in that I've spent decades on this and my path into the industry was through graphics, layout, and art. Over time, I managed to improve my creative writing skills and acquire business skills that make my personal projects possible.

Generally, so long as I work with stock art, I can handle everything on my own without the need to pay/rely on others. I know that gives me a huge boost when it comes to publishing.

Fortunately, these days, it's easier than ever to learn new skills than it was when I started in the early and mid-nineties. If someone were to ask me for advice, I would recommend learning as much as you can about layout and try to do as much of the PDF creation on your own as possible.


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## philreed (Jul 20, 2020)

macd21 said:


> I think the issue there is that some creatives need to recognise that KS is effectively a preorder service, and that their backers’ €100 investment entitles them to a lot of communication. That’s just the reality of Kickstarters these days. If a creative can’t get a handle on that, his first KS is likely to be his last.




Kickstarter can be a powerful tool. So long as you regularly communicate with your backers, and deliver on schedule, you can slowly build an audience. I cannot thank my Kickstarter backers enough for their willingness to support my creative efforts. I wouldn't be able to publish any of my personal works without them.


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## talien (Jul 20, 2020)

Von Ether said:


> A counterpoint: the 1,000 fans model can be a double edged sword. Be wary that pleasing them constantly can put a creative in an echo chamber or be at the mercy of entitled fans who know how much they control the purse strings / or refuse to understand how the sausage is made (like the taxes coming to Patreon.) And then as the "true fans" leave through changing tastes or literally dying off, the creative finds themselves starting from scratch.



100% agree. This is the challenge of any influencer, which is the fear of being "cancelled." And also, economic hardship in the world means your fans feel it too. The only way around that is to build up enough of a fan base so that you are well past the 1,000 fans model. But it's true that 1,000 fans is a knife's edge of survival; you'd definitely need more than that.


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## Dire Bare (Jul 20, 2020)

philreed said:


> (Sorry for the slow response. I missed the notification.)
> 
> For me, I'm lucky in that I've spent decades on this and my path into the industry was through graphics, layout, and art. Over time, I managed to improve my creative writing skills and acquire business skills that make my personal projects possible.
> 
> ...




Certainly being willing to learn the _behind-the-scenes_ skills involved with producing games makes it easier . . . . and being creative in how you approach the design of your personal projects.

I've been backing your recent D&D "dozen" kickstarters, and I was amazed at how they were structured with the base pledge being only $1 . . . . but they seem to be working out well for you! A good deal for backers and hopefully meaningful income for you! It's certainly easy to pledge a $1, even when I tell myself I need to cut back on crowdfunding projects, along comes A Dozen Frightening Rumors and I can't NOT back the project for only $1 . . . .


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## Von Ether (Jul 20, 2020)

talien said:


> 100% agree. This is the challenge of any influencer, which is the fear of being "cancelled." And also, economic hardship in the world means your fans feel it too. The only way around that is to build up enough of a fan base so that you are well past the 1,000 fans model. But it's true that 1,000 fans is a knife's edge of survival; you'd definitely need more than that.




Agreed. I was thinking of companies like Catalyst Game Labs when it comes to Battletech. 

Over the years, their hard core fans have gone from revenue to asset to the aforementioned double edged sword as their numbers shrink and they demand unsuccessful lines of source books to be finished for the sake of completeness (but then don't follow through on purchasing said books.)


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## philreed (Jul 20, 2020)

Dire Bare said:


> I've been backing your recent D&D "dozen" kickstarters, and I was amazed at how they were structured with the base pledge being only $1 . . . . but they seem to be working out well for you! A good deal for backers and hopefully meaningful income for you! It's certainly easy to pledge a $1, even when I tell myself I need to cut back on crowdfunding projects, along comes A Dozen Frightening Rumors and I can't NOT back the project for only $1 . . . .




Thanks! I've been slowly refining the approach to those campaigns and have learned a lot in the last year.


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## HoratioAtTheBridge (Jul 31, 2020)

Sorry if this is thread necromancy, but I just had this question and folks here might enjoy talking it over. But what goes into building an audience?

For my case, I'm a new game designer. I've been working on the manuscript for the last couple of years, written a few adventures, and just released a free adventure for Free RGP Day to get the work out there. I put it on Facebook, on some gaming forums, and on gaming groups on Facebook and Discord. I've also been running demo games at cons, and I'm actually about 20 minutes from starting my next demo at Gencon. I also made a design blog at Wordpress.

What are some of the next steps I might take? I've been thinking of putting my adventure on DriveThruRPG at the "Pay What You Want" level, and another thing I had in mind was sending the adventure out to a few reviewers (though I don't know who they are). We've looked at the economics of publishing with 1000 loyal customers, but how do you get those thousand loyal customers?


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## philreed (Jul 31, 2020)

HoratioAtTheBridge said:


> We've looked at the economics of publishing with 1000 loyal customers, but how do you get those thousand loyal customers?




Time and a lot of hard work. I don't think there's a way to bypass that _unless_ you have a lot of money to invest in social media marketing and you don't mind spending thousands of dollars to "acquire" an audience.


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## Morrus (Jul 31, 2020)

Yeah, it's a long, slow process. You can shortcut it by spending a lot of money on advertising, but otherwise it's a case of building it up slowly.


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## HoratioAtTheBridge (Jul 31, 2020)

Time and hard work doing what? Posting on forums? Spamming your Facebook friends? Getting a booth at conventions? Putting up a flier at the FLGS? Some of these things are going to be effective at finding your customers, others less so. A lot of it is figuring out where people actually are, so I guess another way to put it is:

Where do gamers congregate these days where you can effectively reach them with news of a new gaming product?


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## Morrus (Aug 1, 2020)

HoratioAtTheBridge said:


> Time and hard work doing what?



Making and selling products. Your customer base grows from there. Each product sells a little more as a percentage of the previous customers comes back.


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## Jd Smith1 (Aug 1, 2020)

HoratioAtTheBridge said:


> Time and hard work doing what? Posting on forums? Spamming your Facebook friends? Getting a booth at conventions? Putting up a flier at the FLGS? Some of these things are going to be effective at finding your customers, others less so. A lot of it is figuring out where people actually are, so I guess another way to put it is:
> 
> Where do gamers congregate these days where you can effectively reach them with news of a new gaming product?




Here's a secret: you're asking your competitors on how to better challenge their market share. 

But Morrus' advice is solid: do more. Keep doing more. Then do even more. And lather some more on top of that.

Over the coming *years*, it might be enough, if you are any good. 

One adventure isn't going to cut it; you need multiple entries, all of high quality, to start attracting a fan base. And you need to keep them coming, because if you can't deliver a steady supply, there's no point in following you.

Look at that thousand-yard-stare in Morrus' avatar: there's a man who has paid his dues. When you see that in the mirror, you should be getting close.


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## dchart (Aug 1, 2020)

What Morrus said. You need to make products, and keep making products, and then advertise them on your website, and mention each new product on social media, and in appropriate forums. (Probably best to mention each new product once.) You should be aiming to get one product out every month, at least, if you want to build momentum. You are not going to get paid anything significant for the first year's products, at least.

It's important to bear in mind that, in many industries, you can make a decent living if you have some talent, work hard, and avoid terribly bad luck. In RPGs, you need exceptionally good luck to make a decent living. Talent, hard work, and persistence will get you people who respect and enjoy your work, and a reliable source of pocket money if you keep working (assuming you avoid terribly bad luck). That's nothing to be sneezed at, but you should go into this knowing that you are unlikely to ever make a living at it.


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## Von Ether (Aug 1, 2020)

Jd Smith1 said:


> Here's a secret: you're asking your competitors on how to better challenge their market share.




Here's another secret, it's a small pond and a LOT of your "competition" believes that a rising tide lifts all ships. So while you should always be alert to the bad apples, there are many more who don't mind answering questions and welcome you to play along.

Just also know that D&D is the lion's share of what's going on,  so you will always be that shadow. And there are plenty of gamers who will try will actually be smug that they are playing D&D and not your "whatever." It will be much more likely that some gamer -- who will never be your customer -- will say something hurtful.

So to answer your question about PWYW; it's a bit of an ongoing discussion. Some say that it's better to either just go free or put a price tag on it. 

The Freebies faction usually suggest that your core book or a streamlined core book is free and then offer up expansions/adventures with a price tag. 

The Price Tag faction simply states that if you don't put a value on your work, no one else will. 

My main thought on spending a ton of money on advertising in this industry (I wish I could), basically turns your business into a very expensive hobby. Though, it would be a tax break for the first few years.


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## philreed (Aug 1, 2020)

Morrus said:


> Making and selling products.




Agreed 100%. There is no real shortcut to success. Even spending tens of thousands of dollars to raise awareness is worthless if you aren't making something that people enjoy.

Practice. Practice. Practice.


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## aramis erak (Aug 1, 2020)

TheSword said:


> Why would you expect a person lacking skills and favourable circumstances to be successful at something?



I've seen a number of people with significant lack of certain key skills succeed in the industry. The best example is Kevin Siembieda.
He's a lousy editor - typos galore.
He's not a great game designer - several other games from a similar time to his own core design from 1979-1981 are both smoother to play and written better, while taking a similar approach to skills. The Arcanum has the d20 roll-high, simplified combat mechanics, d100 skills, skills by class, reduced hit point gains by comparison to D&D, a magic system that does away with the «daily memorization to cast, forget when cast» process of Vancian magic, but retains many other aspects of vancian magic... 
He's not a great businessman - constantly behind schedule, has had multiple financial crises of great import on his company... and a huge embezzelment that he missed for years...
If you listen to the various freelancers who have worked for him, and they describe the work experience, one begins to wonder if he even passes as a decent human being...
And there are a lot of people he's had negative interactions with at conventions.
He also sent out a lot of cease and desist letters - it it mentioned game and Palladium, he sent a C&D. My page about the element and working it into FRPGs got a C&D for trademark and copyright infringement... despite not even mentioning him, his games, nor his company. And it got him a nastygram from my Uni's lawyers.
He's a decent artist - his own art in _The Mechanoid Invasion_ is actually pretty good - but he's not selling art, at least in theory.
He is a pretty good setting designer - Mechanoids, Palladium Fantasy, Robotech... all show his abilities.

(And yes, while Robotech was licensed, Kevin's expansion of the setting for the RPG was adopted and expanded only a little for the novels. It's largely consistent. At least, as long as you ignore the typos... And it's a good expansion.)

But what about Rifts? Largely, not his writing. And wildly inconsistent.

He really seems to believe his game engine is one of the best. And he's had a 40 year and counting business turning a profit and feeding him and his family... despite himself. Was it his worldbuilding? Is that enough?


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## TheSword (Aug 1, 2020)

aramis erak said:


> I've seen a number of people with significant lack of certain key skills succeed in the industry. The best example is Kevin Siembieda.
> He's a lousy editor - typos galore.
> He's not a great game designer - several other games from a similar time to his own core design from 1979-1981 are both smoother to play and written better, while taking a similar approach to skills. The Arcanum has the d20 roll-high, simplified combat mechanics, d100 skills, skills by class, reduced hit point gains by comparison to D&D, a magic system that does away with the «daily memorization to cast, forget when cast» process of Vancian magic, but retains many other aspects of vancian magic...
> He's not a great businessman - constantly behind schedule, has had multiple financial crises of great import on his company... and a huge embezzelment that he missed for years...
> ...



I don’t know the guy and don’t know the work. However your post reads like the sour grapes, whether you intended it or not. I suspect he would disagree with you.

Nevertheless, the existence of success by a person without skills doesn’t make me assume that people without skills will be successful.


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## aramis erak (Aug 1, 2020)

Jd Smith1 said:


> Very true. The first generation of gamers are graying.



Most are rapidly approaching the average age of male death in the US: 76.

Most of the initial uptake were guys in their 20's and 30's... and it's been 46 years.


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## aramis erak (Aug 1, 2020)

TheSword said:


> I don’t know the guy and don’t know the work. However your post reads like the sour grapes, whether you intended it or not. I suspect he would disagree with you.
> 
> Nevertheless, the existence of success by a person without skills doesn’t make me assume that people without skills will be successful.



Kevin points out his own lack of editorial capability in his early works. And left it in in _the Mechanoids Trilogy_.


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## Jd Smith1 (Aug 1, 2020)

aramis erak said:


> ...snip...
> 
> He really seems to believe his game engine is one of the best. And he's had a 40 year and counting business turning a profit and feeding him and his family... despite himself. Was it his worldbuilding? Is that enough?




I can answer this question, because I was around: He was at the right place at the right time with the right idea.

The industry was in its infancy. Consumer expectations were low, enthusiasm was high, and he came in on the ground floor and grabbed a loyal fanbase, and that fanbase recruited others.

I don't like his work, but a lot of people do, and they have not just stayed loyal over the years, but recruited. And they don't regard his antics as important.

But his methods would not work today. Today, the consumer base expects polish and quality, and is a lot more fickle because they have far more choice.


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## macd21 (Aug 1, 2020)

Yeah, while Rifts looks dated now, at the time it came out it was a big deal. It just hasn't aged well. But for a while it had a large following (by RPG standards). The game has clung to existence for the past 30 years because its original fanbase was so big that even the small percentage that are left are enough to just about keep it going.

But Siembieda is very much an example of what not to do. Rifts was once a hot property in the RPG industry, and the only reason it isn't anymore is because he ran it into the ground. Someone starting in the industry is highly unlikely to start from a position of having a very popular product that they can then live off while alienating their colleagues and customers.


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## Morrus (Aug 1, 2020)

macd21 said:


> Someone starting in the industry is highly unlikely to start from a position of having a very popular product that they can then live off while alienating their colleagues and customers.



I dunno! There are some big RPG companies which specialise in that!


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## macd21 (Aug 1, 2020)

Morrus said:


> I dunno! There are some big RPG companies which specialise in that!




Ah, but that’s the thing: they’re _already _big companies. They can afford to do that. You need to build up to the point where you can do that, _then _you can throw people under the bus.


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## Von Ether (Aug 1, 2020)

Jd Smith1 said:


> I can answer this question, because I was around: He was at the right place at the right time with the right idea.
> 
> The industry was in its infancy. Consumer expectations were low, enthusiasm was high, and he came in on the ground floor and grabbed a loyal fanbase, and that fanbase recruited others.
> 
> ...




He also pulled off one more trick, when those customer expectations started to rise, he billed himself as the cheaper alternative, putting out $25 softback products as the price -- and number of hardback products in the industry -- kept increasing. All those typos and weird artifacts are just part of the discount you're getting; like a scratch and dent sale. That probably gave him another 5 to 8 years before his stuff started to really look it's age.

He may have also been the first to figure out that if he made custom rules for a licence game, he'd better come up with a new RPG so those rules could live on beyond the licence. (TMNT/After the Bomb.)


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## Jd Smith1 (Aug 1, 2020)

Von Ether said:


> He also pulled off one more trick, while those customer expectations started to rise, he billed himself as the cheaper alternative, putting out $25 softback products as the price -- and number of hardback products in the industry -- kept increasing. All those typos and weird artifacts are just part of the discount you're getting; like a scratch and dent sale. That probably gave him another 5 to 8 years before his stuff started to really look it's age.
> 
> He may have also been the first to figure out that if he made custom rules for a licence game, he'd better come up with a new RPG so those rules could live on beyond the licence. (TMNT/After the Bomb.)




Excellent points. 

And while I am not a fan, Rifts had a clean print format that was easy to read and photocopy, something that game producers today still fail to do. They forget that players and GMs need to dredge up facts & stats on the fly.


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## dragoner (Aug 1, 2020)

aramis erak said:


> Was it his worldbuilding? Is that enough?




Pretty much, I think I had ~30 Rifts books before I gave up, and they still linger like candy at GenCon; though the game system is sort of meh. I often have to stop myself from buying them, like "one won't hurt ..." Nope.

Rifts joke:
A Glitter Boy, Baby Dragon, and Vagabond walk into a bar; the Vagabond dies. It was an MDC bar.


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## aramis erak (Aug 2, 2020)

dragoner said:


> Pretty much, I think I had ~30 Rifts books before I gave up, and they still linger like candy at GenCon; though the game system is sort of meh. I often have to stop myself from buying them, like "one won't hurt ..." Nope.
> 
> Rifts joke:
> A Glitter Boy, Baby Dragon, and Vagabond walk into a bar; the Vagabond dies. It was an MDC bar.



That's actually a pretty decent rifts joke.

Rifts isn't itself too bad a setting... nor any particular world book, but the combinations and player culture the game has developed make it played far worse than written much of the time.


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## Von Ether (Aug 2, 2020)

aramis erak said:


> That's actually a pretty decent rifts joke.
> 
> Rifts isn't itself too bad a setting... nor any particular world book, but the combinations and player culture the game has developed make it played far worse than written much of the time.




While we are digressing, but still behaving. I got the impression that KS assumed,  like many game designers of the time, that GMs ran games in a "common sense" way. i.e., the rules were ignored if they didn't make sense.

I heard one story about how a player was bragging to KS about how his Crazy PC would shoot himself in the head with a SDC pistol to intimidate NPCs because the character could ignore the damage. KS said, "No, your PC is dead because you shot yourself in the head."

Just like other games in the '90s that offered power fantasies, people ran games RAW like that because of those loopholes. Regardless, KS seems to be a complicated person who managed to make a go of it in a tough field. 

My favorite version of Rifts was a homebrew of Marvel's SAGA cards RPG. I loved it because you could make characters in no time and fights were highly dramatic and quick.

My players hated it. They loved to show off their system mastery of Rifts and also to see how their builds played out.


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## aramis erak (Aug 2, 2020)

Von Ether said:


> While we are digressing, but still behaving. I got the impression that KS assumed,  like many game designers of the time, that GMs ran games in a "common sense" way. i.e., the rules were ignored if they didn't make sense.
> 
> I heard one story about how a player was bragging to KS about how his Crazy PC would shoot himself in the head with a SDC pistol to intimidate NPCs because the character could ignore the damage. KS said, "No, your PC is dead because you shot yourself in the head."
> 
> Just like other games in the '90s that offered power fantasies, people ran games RAW like that because of those loopholes. Regardless, KS seems to be a complicated person who managed to make a go of it in a tough field.



I never said he wasn't complicated... 
Complicated doesn't make his apparent incompetence any less problematic.

I also find it interesting that most editions of most of his games give no explanation of how to make percentile rolls. Particularly egregious given his usually low-experience player base.

I'll note also that a pawn shop in Anchorage has a huge rotation of Palladium titles... lots of kids buy book X, play it for a while, sell it back. He's gotten C&Ds from Mr. Siembieda... for noting that he's got Rifts books on the shelves. He posted the C&D letter on the shelf. 

Palladium's games are a lower price point, and thus more accessible to many poor kids than D&D books... especially used... 

He has had success... despite himself. And, like Dragoner, I've found myself reading more of them than I should be affording. But for me, it's when I see them for $4 in a used book store.


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## Jd Smith1 (Aug 2, 2020)

aramis erak said:


> I never said he wasn't complicated...
> Complicated doesn't make his apparent incompetence any less problematic.
> ....snip...




Given that he has made a living+ off his work in a field where even big names can end up impoverished, the accusation of incompetence is undeserved. Particularly since the man's personal assets place him in the millionaire category with money to spare.

There's an old saying: 'if its stupid but it works, it isn't stupid'.

Von Ether said it best: KS seems to be a complicated person who managed to make a go of it in a tough field. 

I don't care for Rifts, but it is good to see any game designer make it, because so few actually do. KS is one of the few success stories the industry has. He literally went from a $1500 loan to wealth (and fame: here we are discussing him).


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## MNblockhead (Aug 2, 2020)

HoratioAtTheBridge said:


> I've been thinking of putting my adventure on DriveThruRPG at the "Pay What You Want" level, and another thing I had in mind was sending the adventure out to a few reviewers (though I don't know who they are). We've looked at the economics of publishing with 1000 loyal customers, but how do you get those thousand loyal customers?




Don't put it up as PWYW.  Even if only $1, set a price. Start learning to value you work and working on attracting the kind of people who are willing to pay creators for their creation.


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## macd21 (Aug 2, 2020)

Jd Smith1 said:


> Given that he has made a living+ off his work in a field where even big names can end up impoverished, the accusation of incompetence is undeserved. Particularly since the man's personal assets place him in the millionaire category with money to spare.
> 
> There's an old saying: 'if its stupid but it works, it isn't stupid'.
> 
> ...




No, the man is thoroughly incompetent. He has screwed up multiple deals, poured money down the drain, screwed his customers and business partners over, and had to beg his fans for charity to keep the lights on. That the man still has money is down to an initial success that he then squandered terribly. He isn’t famous, he’s infamous.


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## dragoner (Aug 2, 2020)

aramis erak said:


> And, like Dragoner, I've found myself reading more of them than I should be affording.




I've probably known worse poverty than most here, except now if I can't afford it, I don't want it. I gave away all my Rifts books when I left California, bought new at Games of Berkeley on Shattuck. There are some real gems: Mechanoids, Undersea, In Orbit, etc.. Great art, and decent story material, Siembieda was also and artist for early Traveller and Judges Guild, which is where I knew him from originally. Bringing the discussion back full circle, Palladium makes it because it has lots of stuff to sell, and that echoes Morrus. I do have money to indulge in games if I want, but the game companies have to sell me on buying their stuff, and not "unsell" me on buying their stuff like mongoose has. I think that there are a lot of people like me, older, with the resources to swipe a card and not blink at paying $100 for game books; which I still want value for, such as usability at the table, as well as some designers, such as Marc Miller for me, that I will always consider buying from.


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## Von Ether (Aug 2, 2020)

dragoner said:


> There are some real gems: Mechanoids, Undersea, In Orbit, etc.. Great art, and decent story material, ...




I think Beyond the Supernatural was a underrated classic and some of my modern day "haunted house" adventures are inspired by the intro adventure in that book. I'm not ashamed to say that I've bought his books to use the concepts with my favorite game systems. Especially if I could get them at their original price or the bargain bin. 

I think we can wrap up on the note that KS was one of the original high profile adapters of the 1,000 fans theory.


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## dragoner (Aug 2, 2020)

Von Ether said:


> I think Beyond the Supernatural was a underrated classic ...



It is one of the gems for sure, Corben cover art of Heavy Metal fame. I still like a lot of their stuff, but like mentioned above, the Coalition Wars CS/Prosek fanboys got the fan base pretty toxic; also sort of boring in a WH40K way, vs some pretty different style of settings, I mean once I played a Juicer going to Wormwood, rolled out of Juicer Uprising, looking for a magic flute to lure the Gargoyles from Europe. That is pretty special to the Rifts setting. It's not my game anymore, but I have no real problem with Palladium or Rifts players, if they like it, cool for them.


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## Jd Smith1 (Aug 2, 2020)

macd21 said:


> No, the man is thoroughly incompetent. He has screwed up multiple deals, poured money down the drain, screwed his customers and business partners over, and had to beg his fans for charity to keep the lights on. That the man still has money is down to an initial success that he then squandered terribly. He isn’t famous, he’s infamous.




If going from -$1500 to retiring as a millionaire makes you incompetent, then I would like to see the stories of the competent.


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## aramis erak (Aug 2, 2020)

Jd Smith1 said:


> If going from -$1500 to retiring as a millionaire makes you incompetent, then I would like to see the stories of the competent.



He's not at millionaire any more.
He's nearly bankrupt, thanks to mishandling the RRT kickstarter, and thanks to his mismanagement thereof, lost his most lucrative license. He's said as much, but blames everyone else involved.
He's been late on almost every announced ship date for product ever, has never learned to pad such estimates by the several months needed.
One of his former employees noted that the license for Savage Worlds Rifts was essentially a bailout for his _personal _finances; he was nearly bankrupt.

The $2 million embezzled several years back by an "employee and friend" was the money to pay for the upcoming print runs. Many, however, do not believe his claims. I believe he came up $2M short, but none of his attributions of blame.

He's one of the largest unfulfilled kickstarters on the market. This leaves him with a HUGE potential liability  - he can't fulfil it, either, because it was a licensed property to which he no longer has a license. He also sold off at fire sale prices the remaining unsold inventory for those products. And persons from the company that partnered with him on it all blame him _personally_.

He's notorious all right. He's looking at undischarged fiscal liability in the 6 figure range... most of his fans won't go for joint suit, because his apparent incompetence has left him unable to pay a judgement even if they got one. If it isn't incompetence, then he's a fraudster. 

Let us also not forget: Eric Wujcik was a large part of his staying financially afloat. A partner in PB, and one of its most prolific authors. Eric is no more. 12 years and one month gone, 12 years of Palladium spiralling into debt and failure to fulfil its obligations.


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## Jd Smith1 (Aug 2, 2020)

aramis erak said:


> He's not at millionaire any more.
> snip...




As of six months ago his personal net worth was between 2 and 5 million.

His businesses are bankrupt, but that does not mean KS the individual is bankrupt.


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## dragoner (Aug 3, 2020)

aramis erak said:


> If it isn't incompetence, then he's a fraudster.



"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity"_ -Hanlon's Razor_

People also get horribly bent out of shape about games, EDG came after me for years, stalking me across the net, for defending Marc Miller and T5, which he was 100% sure it was a malicious rip-off on Marc Miller's part. He also had some personal tale of woe from dealing with him or Hunter Gordon. Siembieda is a piece of work, though I would believe Wujcik was probably the business side and Siembieda the creative; it's a simpler explanation.


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## Deset Gled (Aug 3, 2020)

MNblockhead said:


> Equally important, however, is making decisions that that help mitigate risk.  ...
> 
> It seems to me that mitigation is the most difficult thing for those pursuing careers in the TTRPG industry, or many artistic careers for that matter. It is easy to follow your bliss into penury, as the too-frequent, go-fund-me-style campaigns for some of our hobby's great talents sadly makes all too apparent.
> 
> One benefit I see with the 1000-supporters model is that it involves building skills in marketing, sales, client management, communications, social media, and other skills that are marketable in other fields. If you are a creative who hates those things, then you should seriously consider how to develop other backup skills. What else are you interested in, or at least do not hate, that can keep you fed, sheltered, and insured?




I think your point about risk mitigation bears repeating.  Especially because I believe that working as a RPG/board game designer is, by itself, a bit of a career risk.  The skills are simply less fungible than others.

I know a guy who is a programmer that started a company doing freelance software and consulting.  If his business fails, he'll have to shut down shop and get a new job as a programmer at any other company that uses programmers.  Worst case scenario, his freelance work becomes his portfolio for future job interviews.  Ditto for the guy who started an independent mechanics shop; failure means he goes back to working for a dealer.  Even failed restaurateurs have something to show on their resume and experience they can bring elsewhere.  There are ways to fall up.

If you get into RPG design and spend years of your life starting a company and fail (for any reason), what do you have to show for it?  To be clear, I'm talking about your career only here; obviously, you still have personal satisfaction, life goals, etc.  Is there any place you can go that will look at that "game design" and "worldbuilding" experience on a resume and say "Wow, that's this skill we need for this job"?  The marketing experience my be the only re-marketable skill from starting your own small RPG company, and if that's something you don't enjoy you're SOL.


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## Von Ether (Aug 3, 2020)

Deset Gled said:


> I think your point about risk mitigation bears repeating.  Especially because I believe that working as a RPG/board game designer is, by itself, a bit of a career risk.  This skills are simply less fungible than others.
> 
> I know a guy who is a programmer that started a company doing freelance software and consulting.  If his business fails, he'll have to shut down shop and get a new job as a programmer and any other company that uses programmers.  Worst case scenario, his freelance work becomes his portfolio for future job interviews.  Ditto for the guy who started an independent mechanics shop; failure means he goes back to working for a dealer.  Even failed restaurateurs have something to show on their resume and experience they can bring elsewhere.  There are ways to fall up.
> 
> If you get into RPG design and spend years of your life starting a company and fail (for any reason), what do you have to show for it?  To be clear, I'm talking about your career only here; obviously, you still have personal satisfaction, life goals, etc.  Is there any place you can go that will look at that "game design" and "worldbuilding" experience on a resume and say "Wow, that's this skill we need for this job"?  The marketing experience my be the only re-marketable skill from starting your own small RPG company, and if that's something you don't enjoy you're SOL.




The writing aspect can go into other writing careers, sometimes, but that's just jumping from one shaky career to another. It pans out a little better if you can make the leap to video games (and leave near Seattle doesn't hurt.)

The "safest" route is to have already have a graphic design day job and then do your game writing and layout at night.* In fact, quite a few freelance graphic designers in the industry have their commercial work subsidize their industry work. I even know a few game company _owners _who operate this way. (The more writery types focus on their company between video gaming gigs.)

You'll find that there's some similarity between the comic book industry and the RPG industry once you replace artist and colorist with layout and art design. You'll find that while some of the established stars may get away with doing one thing and doing it well, the rest of us have to pretty much do a bit of everything to bring a project home.


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## Deset Gled (Aug 3, 2020)

Von Ether said:


> The writing aspect can go into other writing careers, sometimes, but that's just jumping from one shaky career to another. It pans out a little better if you can make the leap to video games (and leave near Seattle doesn't hurt.)
> 
> The "safest" route is to have already have a graphic design day job and then do your game writing and layout at night.* In fact, quite a few freelance graphic designers in the industry have their commercial work subsidize their industry work. I even know a few game company _owners _who operate this way. (The more writery types focus on their company between video gaming gigs.)
> 
> You'll find that there's some similarity between the comic book industry and the RPG industry once you replace artist and colorist with layout and art design. You'll find that while some of the established stars may get away with doing one thing and doing it well, the rest of us have to pretty much do a bit of everything to bring a project home.




Aren't video game designers and comic book artists generally in the same boat as RPG designers?  Legitimately asking here, not being rhetorical.  I've read a lot of horror stories on the internet about how video game designers are treated in the industry.  And I know a few people who have tried to make a profession out of comics.  None managed to make a career out of it.

You're probably correct about graphic design being the safest fallback.


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## HoratioAtTheBridge (Aug 3, 2020)

You might look at getting your project management certifications and moving into management. Every field needs project managers, and any entrepreneur is going to have a boatload of skills related to that kind of work.


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## Von Ether (Aug 3, 2020)

Deset Gled said:


> Aren't video game designers and comic book artists generally in the same boat as RPG designers?  Legitimately asking here, not being rhetorical.  I've read a lot of horror stories on the internet about how video game designers are treated in the industry.  And I know a few people who have tried to make a profession out of comics.  None managed to make a career out of it.
> 
> You're probably correct about graphic design being the safest fallback.




My comment on the comic book industry is that both industries seem to have similar-sized teams, workflows and use of freelancers per book and most projects are in-house once you switch out the artists/colorist for layout and graphic design. 

I assume that creatives in all three industries "enjoy" the same pitfalls as all creatives do. 

The parallels in processes may switch over to more like being a video game, though, when you compare WotC and Piazo's workflow to a Triple A title but even then most of the work has been in-house.  WotC stopped sending things out and FFG/Edge seems to be more of a licencing deal like Paradox does with Modiphous. 

The biggest career difference, though, is that the odds are much higher that you _might _make a livable paycheck while working on a video game project (and that there are many more Triple A houses and studios than there are WotC and Piazos.)


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## aramis erak (Aug 5, 2020)

Von Ether said:


> The "safest" route is to have already have a graphic design day job and then do your game writing and layout at night.*



Presuming your employer doesn't have a no-off-hours publications work policy...

Several media companies non-compete policies go so far as to claim ownership of all IP created while employed, whether on the clock or not,  while more reasonable ones simply prohibit publishing while in their employ. 

Essentially, Gygax himself fell afoul of a non-compete with Dangerous Journeys...

(While Dangerous Journeys wasn't the sole issue that brought down GDW, it did contribute.)


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## Von Ether (Aug 6, 2020)

aramis erak said:


> Presuming your employer doesn't have a no-off-hours publications work policy...
> 
> Several media companies non-compete policies go so far as to claim ownership of all IP created while employed, whether on the clock or not,  while more reasonable ones simply prohibit publishing while in their employ.




Not so much when you are working marketing and ad agencies -- especially if you are freelancer. 

The big taboo I saw, though, was corporate graphic artists staying late to "work" on a project and then doing a sideline with the computer software in the days when QX or InD was hundreds of dollars. 

Some even asked for an extra licence so they could company work at home (as well as start up a freelance/RPG biz.) But as long a deadlines were met, it seems the bosses didn't care. 

My personal frustration was from an RPG professional who kept harping on me learning layout and design as they did exactly this at their day job -- while expecting my broke butt to shell out hundreds of dollars I didn't have.


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## joe5mc (Aug 8, 2020)

I read the original article with interest. While I'm not exactly what the article is looking for, I am getting there.  A few things to note - I'm not completely self-employed, I draw a small salary, but most of my income is freelance.  Also, one can argue if I'm actually an 'RPG' writer or not. I have done a bit of RPG writing, but most of my income has come from Rangers of Shadow Deep and Frostgrave. The later is wargame with rpg-flavours.  The former is either a solo/co-operative wargame with a lot of RPG trappings, or a solo/co-operative RPG that requires the use of miniatures.

I don't know if I have 1,000 true fans or not, as this isn't always an easy question to answer. I suspect my number is closer to 500.  Frostgrave has a lot more than 1,000 fans, but, as it is released through a traditional publisher, I get a royalty that is much smaller than if I self-published.

Rangers of Shadow Deep, I self-published through DriveThruRPG and Amazon.  I convinced an artist friend and a graphic designer friend to join the project, and both receive a royalty on everything. To date, I have released six supplements for the game. After the game reached Adamantine level on DriveThru, I decided that the sales had peaked, and licensed the main rulebook to Modiphius, who are currently selling a Deluxe Edition.  However, I retained all rights to create and release supplements myself.  I've also licensed a couple of foreign publishers to release the game.

I have never used either Kickstarter or Patreon, but am ready to give either or both a try if it proves necessary.

I have never earned $100,000 in a year, but I also don't need near that much to live.  I guess if I had some advice to people trying to make it in the industry, it would be:

1) Diversify your income streams. You never know which parts of your work will take off, and which will dry up, so try to have as many different income streams as you can manage.  Self-Publish, try to get main-stream publishers to publish your work, and do work for hire. Use Patreon and Kickstarter if you need to and think you can.  (Also, create a blog, use affiliate links, etc.). The more things you try, the more likely you are to succeed.

2) When you can, focus on the projects where you retain the most ownership.  In the long term, creating your own game has by far the greatest earning potential, and anything you own has at least the possibility of earning money in the future. 

3) Keep your expenses as low as possible. The less you spend, the less you have to earn.  The life a game writer can be a great one, but in general, it's not likely to be a hugely profitable one. So, likely, you are going to have to make sacrifices in other areas of life to make it viable. Buy the small house, or rent the smaller apartment. 

4) Learn to love marketing...

5) Write every day.


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