# [ot, spoilers] Enterprise 27-2-02



## Wolf72 (Feb 28, 2002)

okay ... so it's only been the opening, but that vulcan guy was way to nice?

maybe he's a Romulan? (hmm, second thought ... I'm just shooting at faeries here)


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## Kobold Curry Chef (Feb 28, 2002)

I always try to watch the show, but after 5 minutes of watching I've totally forgotten it's still on the TV.  It's that uninteresting to me, I'm afraid.  How the mighty have fallen!


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## Someguy (Feb 28, 2002)

Dammit...why on Wednesdays nights...I am always busy...sigh...I will have tow ait until saturday and/or sunday...


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## Wolf72 (Feb 28, 2002)

*I've got faith of the heart .... (all off key!)*



			
				Kobold Curry Chef said:
			
		

> *I always try to watch the show, but after 5 minutes of watching I've totally forgotten it's still on the TV.  It's that uninteresting to me, I'm afraid.  How the mighty have fallen! *




Quanto Lo Siento!!!

Wednesday's are the meaning of the week for me 

... back to tonight: Vulcan hippies, who'd a thunk.  Only unlike human hippies trying to do the "peace & love" thing, these guys are trying to find emotion ... and turning into aggresive bores.


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## A2Z (Feb 28, 2002)

Well golly gee! I had no idea the Vulcan mind meld was as unknown as to be a _forgotten technique_. I can't remember, have we seen the Vulcan neck pinch done yet? That Vulcan rage is quite impressive though.


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## Wolf72 (Feb 28, 2002)

*two hours of warp goodness!*

is it just me or does anyone else cringe when they hear stuff like "temporal cold war" ... tachyon emmisions ... or such stuff?


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## A2Z (Feb 28, 2002)

Spoilers
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Did you catch the second episode tonight? At first I was thinking that the temporal police were paying a visit. I'm not so sure anymore though. 900 years into the future. About what time periode would that be? How far before TNG is Enterprise?


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## drothgery (Feb 28, 2002)

A2Z said:
			
		

> *900 years into the future. About what time periode would that be? How far before TNG is Enterprise? *




TNG is somewhere between 100 and 200 years before TOS, which is about 100 years before TNG. 900 years into the future, relative to Enterprise, is 600-700 years after the TNG/DS9/Voyager timeframe.


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## Holy Bovine (Feb 28, 2002)

Kobold Curry Chef said:
			
		

> *I always try to watch the show, but after 5 minutes of watching I've totally forgotten it's still on the TV.  It's that uninteresting to me, I'm afraid.  How the mighty have fallen! *




It *still* better than DS9 and Voyager rolled into one big, dream-episode laden trek ball.

Enterprise could save the Trek franchise as far as I'm concerned (which is in serious need of saving right now).


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## Black Omega (Feb 28, 2002)

Holy Bovine said:
			
		

> *
> 
> It still better than DS9 and Voyager rolled into one big, dream-episode laden trek ball.
> 
> Enterprise could save the Trek franchise as far as I'm concerned (which is in serious need of saving right now). *



DS9 started terribly.  But got much better.  Sad to say, I've wanted to like Enterprise, but so far I just can't.  I'd rather watch Lexx than Enterprise.


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## Masked (Feb 28, 2002)

*So ... what was that?*

You know, I'm not sure about ds9 or voyager, but I sure don't remember TNG ever having an episode where a year from now the characters won't even remember the episode.  Nothing happened ... at all.

Well, it could be that I've chosen to ignore the mind meld/rape parallel, but that's not my fault.  I'm still recovering from the Willow's addiction to magic = drugs episode from Buffy.

The Temporal Cold War episodes are a little funky.  That is, they are funky in a bad way.  However, they're better than "Hey look their Vulcans ... but they're weird."  I'm starting to think that they're trying to only entice us with their commercials to watch the show and not the previous episodes.

Of course, yes, commercials are to entice, but they're something to be said for just making a good show.

<shrugs>


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## ColonelHardisson (Feb 28, 2002)

Every version of Trek since TOS has been rampant with episodes where the crew won't ever remember what happened - almost all of them had to do with time travel. In TNG, there was the infamous "Enterprise colliding with another Starfleet ship and blowing up" episode, where they got caught in a time loop, and the episode where the Federation was going to be defeated in 6 months and Tasha Yar never died. There were others, as I recall. 

If you mean that nothing in the new episode of Enterprise was of consequence, then I guess it's a matter of taste; this episode was one of the most interesting Star Trek episodes I've seen. For once we had an episode of character development that was actually interesting, and seemed like it was important to the character - namely T'Pol. The way the writing has been, I'm betting this episode will be touched upon in the future. I'd also bet it'll change how the characters, especially Archer and T'Pol, view each other.

Very fine writing. A great hour of television.


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## Viking Bastard (Feb 28, 2002)

drothgery said:
			
		

> *
> [ENT] is somewhere between 100 and 200 years before TOS, which is about 100 years before TNG. 900 years into the future, relative to Enterprise, is 600-700 years after the TNG/DS9/Voyager timeframe. *



Yep. From the 30th or 31st century I believe, which means the Temporal Cold War is even further into the future than VOY's time police guys.

Today: 2002

ENT: in the 2150s
TOS: in the 2250s
TNG: in the 2350s
DS9+VOY: late 2350s and early 2360s

Time Police: 29th century
Temporal Cold War: 30th or 31st century


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## Tom Cashel (Feb 28, 2002)

A2Z said:
			
		

> *I can't remember, have we seen the Vulcan neck pinch done yet?*




Second episode.  When they're freaking out on psychedelic pollen in that cave, T'pol _covertly_ gives one of them the neck pinch to put him out.  Nobody else knows she can that, though.

I think T'pol is hot.  She's got a cute little bum.


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## Don (Feb 28, 2002)

I'm just not a big fan of T'Pol.  No raised eyebrows, far too emotional, just an irritating character all around.  There are only two, round reasons why she's in the show.

And did you see that episode where she and Archer are tied up together in a shack and they fall over?  I could just hear the millions of prepubescent Trekkies cheer for Archer.  Totally gratuitous.


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## D'karr (Feb 28, 2002)

*Totally Gratuitous*

Yes, I fondly remember that episode.... 

And heck I'm about 25 years past prepubescence.  Maybe I'm caught in a Temporal Cold Shower....


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## ColonelHardisson (Feb 28, 2002)

I think Jolene Blalock (or however you spell it) is a good actress. Seriously. She has a good grasp on subtlety - in my opinion, one of her best moments was when Archer discovered the Vulcan listening station at the monastery; given what we know of Vulcans and how they express emotions, her stunned look spoke volumes - and they didn't go in for the big, melodramatic closeup, which was a big plus.

Sure, she was cast for her looks, but she's proven to be a very capable actress.

Now, this is pure speculation on my part, but perhaps her "emotional displays" (for a Vulcan) indicate she may be, at least partly, Romulan? Perhaps she was chosen for the mission with humans because she has enough emotion of her own to not be constantly irritated by humans? Hmmm...we'll see...


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## Ciaran (Feb 28, 2002)

ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> *Now, this is pure speculation on my part, but perhaps her "emotional displays" (for a Vulcan) indicate she may be, at least partly, Romulan? Perhaps she was chosen for the mission with humans because she has enough emotion of her own to not be constantly irritated by humans? Hmmm...we'll see... *




Last I checked, it's not that Vulcans are unemotional, but that they have tight emotion control to handle the fact that they can get _very_ emotional.  Presumably this came up in that episode...  unfortunately I missed it.  In any case, Romulans and Vulcans are equally emotional, and a half-Romulan raised by Vulcans would have the usual Vulcan control.  So maybe T'pol is just terribly undisciplined?  

- Eric


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## ColonelHardisson (Feb 28, 2002)

I think you are partially correct. It has been mentioned in past episodes of Enterprise that Vulcans have a gland which actually suppresses emotion. While they didn't go into detail on how the Vulcans who were embracing emotion did it, one can assume that they bypass that organ in doing so, somehow, but it's physically and mentally dangerous to do so. 

I don't think T'Pol has shown an inordinate amount of emotion, espacially when compared to other Vulcans we've seen so far on Enterprise. Remember that captain of the ship that was shadowing Enterprise, who was invited to dinner? He seemed at different times disdainful, condescending, and angry. At least for a Vulcan. Also, consider that Enterprise is showing a side of Vulcans we've never seen on any Trek show - we have seen that they are capable of lying (the whole incident with the Andorians at the monastery, for example), and seen that they are rather intolerant and disdainful of other races and cultures, and seem to be carrying the "Vulcan burden" when it comes to relating to aliens, in the sense that they feel they know best in regards to their "inferiors," like humans. It's a wonder that humans and Vulcans ever got to the point of forming the Federation - which may be the point of the "temporal Cold War." Someone is sabotaging the already fragile relations between Vulcans and humans in order to keep the Federation from happening. Or so it seems to me.


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## drnuncheon (Feb 28, 2002)

ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> *I think Jolene Blalock (or however you spell it) is a good actress. Seriously. She has a good grasp on subtlety...and they didn't go in for the big, melodramatic closeup, which was a big plus.
> *




I've been pleased by the subtle bits in Enterprise.  I cracked up laughing when Trip as talking to the Vucan about ..."you know"...and when the Vulcan makes his outburst, you can see all the out-of-focus people in the background stopping and turning around to look.  They didn't make a big deal out of it, which made it funnier than if they'd gone for the slapstick.

J


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## Don (Feb 28, 2002)

ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> *
> I don't think T'Pol has shown an inordinate amount of emotion, espacially when compared to other Vulcans we've seen so far on Enterprise. Remember that captain of the ship that was shadowing Enterprise, who was invited to dinner? *




Yes, now that you mention it, that Vulcan captain was a jerk.  And the one Vulcan in the pilot (played by the same guy who played detective Sykes in the Alien Nation TV series) got pretty emotional, too.

Ah, for the days of the cool, calculating, unemotional Mr. Spock...(and he was *half human*!)


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## Aaron L (Feb 28, 2002)

Vulcans have a gland that supresses emotion?  That's wonky.  Why did they almost tear themselves apart because of their overpowerd emotions and have to develop a non-emotional total logic philosophy then?


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## JacktheRabbit (Feb 28, 2002)

Personally I am getting sick and tired of vulcans in general and I wish they would stop focusing every other episode on the 'master race'.

I mean come on, they are:

stronger
faster
smarter
see better
hear better
able to adjust their bodies to not need sleep for days on end
lightly telepathic

It just gets VERY boring after a while seeing them on the screen all the time.

BTW, am I the only one that thinks that one vulcan a$$ from the show should have been thrown in the brig for multiple assault and battery charges?


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## Masked (Feb 28, 2002)

Ciaran said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Last I checked, it's not that Vulcans are unemotional, but that they have tight emotion control to handle the fact that they can get very emotional.  Presumably this came up in that episode...  unfortunately I missed it.*




It was mentioned.  The Vulcan who looked like Luke Perry said to T'Pol that her emotions are much closer to the surface than other Vulcans.  However, the Vulcans in episode one sure got angry a.k.a. emotional, though I can't remember why.

However, that could be explained as having to do with their contact with humans for 70 years.


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## JacktheRabbit (Feb 28, 2002)

Why was he getting mad?

Simple, the stupid humans were not automatically doing what they were told. They were actually daring to question and disagree with the almighty Vulcan on the scene.




			
				Masked said:
			
		

> *
> 
> It was mentioned.  The Vulcan who looked like Luke Perry said to T'Pol that her emotions are much closer to the surface than other Vulcans.  However, the Vulcans in episode one sure got angry a.k.a. emotional, though I can't remember why.
> 
> ...


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## Lizard (Feb 28, 2002)

Don said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Yes, now that you mention it, that Vulcan captain was a jerk.  And the one Vulcan in the pilot (played by the same guy who played detective Sykes in the Alien Nation TV series) got pretty emotional, too.
> 
> Ah, for the days of the cool, calculating, unemotional Mr. Spock...(and he was *half human*!) *




Which means he may have been overcompensating -- that is, being "more Vulcan than thou" in order to overcome the stigma of his heritage.


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## Wolf72 (Mar 1, 2002)

*constant struggle*

I do like how they've vulcans seem more fallible, they _NEED_ to Meditate everynight.

they show minor emotions, they're not robots after all ...

from what I've seen so far the few times a vuclans gotten into a physical fight they've gotten knocked down.  This may be because of lack of experience, or that the adrenaline that pumps them up is mostly active during emotional or ritual (Kirk and Spock to the death, Jim Carrey's "Cable Guy" rendition was fantastic!).

with a little luck I should be able to start an andromeda thread for this weekend too ...


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## Methinkus (Mar 1, 2002)

My gosh man, am I the only one who thinks vulcans in general are the worst idea for a race of alien critters on TV in the history of TV?

How am I, as a viewer, supposed to become interested in a people who are actually incapable of showing emotion?  "Oh well as long as it won't bother you I was just thinking about how much I would like to sleep with your wife there.  I promise I'll wear a rubber, see you in the morning, you don't mind sleepin on the couch do you?  No?  Great.  You're the best,"

I swear I almost slipped into a freaking coma while I was sitting through those dialogs between T'Pol and her "emotional" vulcan buddy it was so boring.  Lousy vulcans and their Master Race mentality. . . . . .

Oh and on a side note: My first post!  Wahoo!


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## Mark (Mar 1, 2002)

Welcome,  Methinkus!   Pardon me if I ramble a bit about a thing or two... 



			
				ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> *Every version of Trek since TOS has been rampant with episodes where the crew won't ever remember what happened - almost all of them had to do with time travel. *




It's true they didn't treat time travel the same way in TOS, but they had their episodes also. I think most people, when they say they dislike time travel episodes (and don't include TOS time travel episodes) are really taking a dislike to how they are treated.

----------------------------

Here's a link to a nice little summary site, though people may disagree with the author's "grades" of the episodes- 
http://science.csustan.edu/JTB/GUIDES/TREK/trek-index.htm )

First Season: Tomorrow is Yesterday - In the past by accident, air force pilot is picked up, must be returned.

First Season: City On The Edge of Forever - Thru a time portal after McCoy to a woman on histories turning point.

Second Season: Assignment Earth - In the past, the crew almost stops Gary Seven from preventing war.

Third Season: All Our Yesterdays - Thru a portal go, Kirk to a 'Salem', and Bones & Spock to ice an age.

-------------------------

I think that ColH is making the distinction as being the treatment, and not time travel in general, as being what he dislikes but let's strive onward.

I'm of a mind that the "alternate _possible_ pasts" of later (than TOS) series were trying to deal with things in what they wished to be perceived as a more realistic treatment of the cause and effect relationship time travel suggests and the theory of many, if not infinite, threads in time.

Perhaps it will turn out that the current relationship that Earth has with the Vulcans will not be the actual one if it is effected by the Temporal Cold War story arc?

Reagrding this latest new episode of Enterprise...

I like the way they are portraying Vulcans and think it is in keeping with all of the series and movies.  I think it is probably not good to use Spock examples since he is of mixed heritage, but there are other Vulcans to cite as less than paragons of emotional control.  In TOS, Sarek had a human wife, not very logical.  His arrogance when visiting the Enterprise as an ambassador certainly shows his emotional attempts of emotional detachment regarding his relationship with his half-human son (Spock).  

I'll squeeze some examples from the movies in here because they deal primarily with the original cast.  Kirsty Alley often showed frustration while trying to learn the ropes and her substitute in The Search for Spock might have been a tad less emotional.  Spock's brother, anyone?  There's a fine example of what happens when a Vulcan embraces his emotion to the point of abandoning reasoning and grasp of reality.

TNG replaced the Vulcan "concept" with Data, obviously to distance themselves from TOS, but had some episodes with Vulcans.  Sarek arrogantly and stubbornly held a long standing alienation of his half-human son (Spock), which is emotional.  The madness Sarek goes through in old age, is another example of the emotion/logic struggle that is part of the Vulcan "make up".

DSN seemed to be going even further to avoid any relationship with past episode's plots, and notably in how they avoided Vulcans as characters.  The only time Vulcans were used, IIRC, was in the Baseball episode and that was in a holodeck.  I can't recall if the Vulcans were a program or real but I believe the former.  No real examples here, then.

VOY has Tuvok, and while some will dismiss all of Voyager as the worst of all Trek, I'm not so quick to say so myself.  Regardless, it had both good and bad things about it just like any of the series, IMO.  For the purposes of this post, it is a wealth of Vulcan examples of the struggle with emotion.  To my mind they are too numerous to recount but, I think anyone with a familiarity of Voyager will agree, it was sprinkled with Tuvok episodes and most of those dealt with his Vulcan problems with that struggle.

All in all I'd have to say that the real problem is that they may not have established, at any time in the history of Star Trek, that Vulcans are the epitome of logic.  They have always asserted it in the scripted word but more often than not appearances of Vulcans usually deal with their tenuous grasp of their emotional control rather than their supreme ability to hold those emotions in check.


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## Ancalagon (Mar 1, 2002)

Greetings

On spock overcompensating:

Very plausible.  Just look at how Worf was more klegon (especialy on the honor thing) than most klegon, despite having been raised by humans...

I think that DS9 started very slowly but got realy good.  I guess it depends if you like politics or not.

Ancalagon


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## ColonelHardisson (Mar 1, 2002)

Yeah, my dislike of time travel stories is really in how Trek has previously handled them. TOS did have a few really good examples of how to do them so they aren't annoying, though, so let's discuss the series that followed. TNG set the theme, with I don't know how many episodes where the time travel device was used simply to screw around with the conventions of the series, but then to be able to pull the old switcheroo at the end and bring everything back to the status quo. Given that watching television is a time-wasting pursuit in the first place, to further waste it by watching a story that won't even impact upon the characters or setting seems too much to me.

To me, the paragon of time travel used correctly as a story device is found in Babylon 5. Everytime it was used, it created a huge impact, and what was wrought by way of time travel most often ended up as a recurring theme throughout the rest of the series - take Londo as the Centauri Emperor as an example, and how actions from other episodes, both those that dealt with time travel and those that did not, impacted upon him and the other characters. This is a far cry from how more recent Trek series have dealt with time travel. The last episode of Voyager and now Enterprise seem to be changing that, though, and good for them.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Mar 1, 2002)

Well, you could also argue that Babylon 5 was quite boring, because everything they did during time travel was already "hardwired" in the reality - they couldn`t fail when they send Bab4 to the last shadow/minbari encounter, because Bab4 was there. If it didn`t, they wouldn`t be able to send it back in time... 

Mustrum "Unfortunately, Enterprise doesn`t run in German TV, at least not yet" Ridcully


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## Zerovoid (Mar 1, 2002)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> *Well, you could also argue that Babylon 5 was quite boring, because everything they did during time travel was already "hardwired" in the reality - they couldn`t fail when they send Bab4 to the last shadow/minbari encounter, because Bab4 was there. If it didn`t, they wouldn`t be able to send it back in time...
> 
> Mustrum "Unfortunately, Enterprise doesn`t run in German TV, at least not yet" Ridcully *




While this might be true to some extent, I don't think its a problem.  B5 does a good job of building up the time travel stuff slowly, with prophesices, and dreams, and the B4 episodes.  Until the episode War without End, in season 3, the viewer doesn't konw the whole story.  Once you've seen that part, earlier episodes might seem inevitable, but you didn't know that when you watched them.  And after War without End, all bets are off, because the future is yet to be written.


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## Mark (Mar 1, 2002)

I'm not a B5 guy, so I can't make or follow the comparisons that are being made using those examples. Sorry. 

In regard to TNG, though, the idea that those involved with 1701C weren't aware of how time had been changed by the end of the episode did effect the actual timeline of the series.  They later ran into Tasha's daughter and had to surmise that either things had been changed or they were unaware of some events that happened to Tasha.

There were a number of ways that they effected the timeline and one of my personal favorites was the timeloop episode with the inexplicable repeating of the number three. 

I'm not saying the TOS time episodes weren't good but I thought the later series were better at showing that there could be consequences.  The TOS time travel episodes were more quick to sweep them under the carpet, never to be heard from again, than later series efforts.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Mar 1, 2002)

Actually, I believe Bab5 handled many things better than Startrek Series. But Babylon 5 was also a series in which the producer had a "master plan", unlike Startrek. Especially the Next Generation was a "one shot" show - every episode was uniqe and could mostly be seen on her own. It is easier for viewers, that don`t have time to see all episodes. And it did also fit the principe of an ongoing adventure of exploration, of a Trek - never look back. 

Deep Space Nine and Babylon 5 were both series about a space station. And a Station is, well, stationary - it can`t run away from older stories, they can easily come back. 
(But in Deep Space Nine the producers realized this fact much later.)
The problem of this shows is that, with their continuing storyline, you need to focus on them, watch every episode. And that is not a thing for everyone...

Mustrum Ridcully


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## Aaron L (Mar 1, 2002)

I liked DS9, loved it really, until the last season, with things like Sisko being the son of a Prophet started popping up.


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## dagger (Mar 1, 2002)

I must be easily amused, but for me, this is the best thing since TNG. I like the new show very much, its my favorite ship also. 

Me and my wife like to see hot chicks so we don't mind the Vulcan at all, we think she makes a fine Vulcan, all around.


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## Zerovoid (Mar 1, 2002)

I admit to also liking time travel episodes in general.  I enjoyed all the ones in TNG, and the Enterprise C episode is definatley one of my favorite episodes of that series.  The problem is, things that are cool in small doses often become lame very fast when they show up all the time.

Although I only watched the first few seasons of voyager, and then a few sporadic episodes later, I always thought it seemed like a pretty descent show.  I also liked Kes, and was pissed off when they replaced her with 7 of 9's breasts.  Unfortunately, right after Seven joined the crew, everything became Borg this, and Borg that.  Whatever mystique the Borg had left after TNG was quickly sqandered.

Time travel is the same way.  I always liked time travel, but if I remember correctly, Voyager has two or three time-paradox episodes, in a row, in the first ten episodes.  And it gets even worse from that point on.  With a little better pacing, the occasional time travel episode would have been fun, but you can't have far out episodes like that all the time.


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