# Movies that I just don't get



## TiQuinn (Dec 11, 2003)

Okay, a spin-off from the Worst Movies ever thread.  

Everyone's got one.  It's the movie that you can't stand that everyone else on God's green Earth seems to love.  Mine just happens to be Ghostbusters.  It wasn't funny when I was 12.  It wasn't funny when I watched it when I was 17.  And it remained unfunny throughout my 20's.  And it's not that I don't like Bill Murray and Dan Ackroyd.  Compare Murray in that to stuff like Caddyshack, Stripes, and Groundhog Day.  I don't get it.  

Now, it did have one funny line that caused me to laugh my ass off, but aside from that.....eh.


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## Atridis (Dec 11, 2003)

For me, it's the entire Italian-American Mafia genre. I didn't put them on the "Worst Movies" thread, because I can't honestly say they're _bad_, but the genius of "The Godfather", "Goodfellas", and "The Sopranos" just completely escaped me.


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## Hand of Evil (Dec 11, 2003)

Atridis said:
			
		

> For me, it's the entire Italian-American Mafia genre. I didn't put them on the "Worst Movies" thread, because I can't honestly say they're _bad_, but the genius of "The Godfather", "Goodfellas", and "The Sopranos" just completely escaped me.



Me too.  I do think they are good movies/shows but I just never got into them.


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## diaglo (Dec 11, 2003)

Mr. Bean...Rowan Atkinson. any movie he is in.

and i love british humour, considering i grew up with it.

i just don't get how they can make a full length movie of him.


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## Datt (Dec 11, 2003)

I second that.  I don't know what it is, I just don't get it.


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## Michael Tree (Dec 11, 2003)

DragonballZ and similar anime.  I just don't get it.  Not only is there no plot that I can determine, but it's the most boringly slow 'action' cartoon I've ever seen.

I also don't really get the Mafia genre.  Nor do I get westerns.


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## Jamdin (Dec 11, 2003)

I do not get romance movies. Just kiss each other already and do not drag it out for two hours. I also do not understand the four hour "abusive father/husband/boyfriend killed by mother/wife/girlfriend and we must go through the events that led up to the death" movies on Lifetime.


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## JacktheRabbit (Dec 11, 2003)

Atridis said:
			
		

> For me, it's the entire Italian-American Mafia genre. I didn't put them on the "Worst Movies" thread, because I can't honestly say they're _bad_, but the genius of "The Godfather", "Goodfellas", and "The Sopranos" just completely escaped me.





I agree completely. I just do not get people's love affair with these shows and movies that are basically about complete and utter scum.

Tony Soprano is not "cool" he is a violent thug who enjoys hurting people. He deserves life in prison or the electric chair.


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## takyris (Dec 11, 2003)

Are we differentiating between "Do not understand why people like" and "Do not like myself"?

I only like Mafia movies when they are obviously parodying the mobsters, when it's done in a comedic way and when the mobsters don't have any real teeth.  For the other kinds, I can understand the machismo, the sort of honor and evil all tied up together in violent people who find themselves torn between their honor and their family and sometimes the woman they love.  But once we get past the honor and conflict-of-loyalty stuff, we end up with films that glorify violence and sort of leave me numb from the sheer amount of blood spilled in often-graphic fashion.

I can understand the appeal, but I do not share it.

Similarly, I understand the appeal of Dragonball Z -- it's a high-powered show where people spend a lot of quality time posing and declaring how badass they are, and then mountains get blown up.  Many people with low esteem can enjoy that sort of vicarious "Oh, he's so powerful" shtick, the declarations of power and such, and people who at least aren't bothered by the posing can enjoy the plot that they keep telling me is in there.  However, I really don't enjoy it myself, and find myself often in philosophical conflict with its most enthusiastic defenders.

I guess that if there's one genre I really don't get on a level of not understanding on some profound level, it's the Summer Movie SF Action genre.  I consistently find myself frustrated by these movies, feeling awkward about being the only one in the group who doesn't want to see it on the big screen.  I don't always loathe them, but I almost always think that they give short shrift to plot and character development in order to give us lots of special effects.  This is, I freely admit, apparently just me, but the special effects and fight scenes only really mean anything to me when they're used to ehance a good story with strong characters.  On many of the individual movies, I challenge my friends by directly asking them, and they freely admit that the plot and characters are just there to fill up space between explosions, which leads me to question why they want me to come with them and spend $9.50 instead of just going home, cranking up the computer, and blowing things up in the privacy of my own room.

Again, I have no objection to stylish violence (although I don't love graphic violence) or really cool explosions.  I just don't really get the love of them to the point where there is no movie, just a bunch of random explosions.


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## Pants (Dec 11, 2003)

DBZ is all about turning your brain on 'super-low' and watching the pretty colors and explosions on screen.


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## Mallus (Dec 11, 2003)

DocMoriartty said:
			
		

> I agree completely. I just do not get people's love affair with these shows and movies that are basically about complete and utter scum.
> 
> Tony Soprano is not "cool" he is a violent thug who enjoys hurting people. He deserves life in prison or the electric chair.



Tony Soprano may deserve the chair, but Gandolfini certainly deserves an Emmy [or more Emmy's]...

I think its pretty easy to explain why people enjoy a good Mafia story. And the neat thing is, their appeal works on multiple levels.

First off, who in their heart of hearts doesn't wish they were above the rules that govern polite society for time to time. Who hasn't been cut off on the highway and fantasized about following the jerk to a rest stop, whacking him, and depositing the body in a large, Mob-owned trash recepticle?

So the primary appeal is power-fantasy. Pure id. The same reason people respond to Conan [the Cimmerian, not O'Brien]. I think it should be easy for a gamer to sympathize with this.

And like RPG's, Mafia narratives are governed by rules. They usually provide a clear context for such antisocial actions. In Mafia fictions, there is a level of honor among thieves. And this fiction serves to both defang them as societal threats --hey, only the bad, compromised people get whacked--, and enoble them, particularly since their actions are often contrasted against those of equally criminal corrupt police, who hypocritcally betray the public trust. 

Then there's the Mafia as empowerment angle. The Godfather series plays with this one big time. Good people come to America and face disenfranchisement, discrimination, a lack of economic mobility, so they resort to whatever means neccessary to achieve the American dream. This particular thread runs through American fictions from The Great Gatsby to Scarface. And in the end they're always tradegies; it never works out, you end up dead in your pool or coked to high heaven and shot into a million pieces. No matter how much a valorization of criminals goes on, these stories end up as pretty cut-and-dry morality plays.

Then there's Tony... the Everybadman. People like him so much because its so easy to identify with him, with his weakness, his endless capacity for rationalization and self-deception that gets him through the day. They treat the obscene violence he's capable of as metaphor, which is the whole point.


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## KidCthulhu (Dec 11, 2003)

I don't get slapstick.  Mr.  Bean is a good example.  I adore Atkinson, and still think Blackadder was one of the funniest TV programs ever.  But comedy based on people falling in poo, or getting hit with ladders doesn't work for me.  Poo-poo humor falls into the same category.

I think the point of the thread is the question "what do other people love in movies that leaves you cold"

We could ask the same question of actors/actresses whom everyone loves, but who you don't get.  I'd put Bill Murray in that category.  I've liked many of his films, but I always find watching him a painful experiece.  He just comes across as a jerk.


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## Desdichado (Dec 11, 2003)

Anime.  I keep trying to like it, and I simply can't find one that is better than "OK" at most.


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## KenM (Dec 11, 2003)

Pants said:
			
		

> DBZ is all about turning your brain on 'super-low' and watching the pretty colors and explosions on screen.




  You mean like the end fight in Matrix: Revolutions?


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## ssampier (Dec 11, 2003)

*I just don't get jackass... is it me?*

Frankly I don't understand the appeal of shows like Jackass. You have three people that do insanely stupid, inane stunts on the show to what end? Many times they end up in the hospital. On such occassions the stuntperson acts like it is a badge of honor to get hurt. My friends love this show and try as I may I can't like it.

Other movies that little appeal to me are movies like Titanic; I haven't even seen the movie and I can tell you what happens (I'm sure I wouldn't miss anything). The aforementioned appeal of LifeTime movies are confusing, too.

I never understood anime, especially the small woman, big breast stereotype. I'm glad I'm not the only one who doesn't "get it".


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## Evil Eli (Dec 11, 2003)

I just don't get into the whole "Something about Mary, Zoolander, and most Jim Carrey movies. The whole schtick bores me to death.


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## Berandor (Dec 11, 2003)

Small women need to have small breasts. Otherwise, where's the fun?
But I don't get most anime, either. I like a very select few (with Record of Lodoss War among them, and some of the better structured ones), but most of it simply has no appeal to me.
Still, I enjoyed Mononoke Hime and Spirited Away. *shrug*

B


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## Cthulhu's Librarian (Dec 11, 2003)

Anime. When I'm supposed to tell the characters apart by the color/shape/size of their hair, it doesn't work for me.


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## Heretic Apostate (Dec 11, 2003)

I just don't get the Kirk Douglas movie, _Scalawag_.  Not that I don't get it, but in several years of searching on eBay, I have yet to find it for sale.   (At least, at a time when I did the search...  Maybe I should put an email-notification on the search...  Though I mostly just see stuff about Scalawag the Monkey and Scalawag movie posters...)

Sorry, off topic.


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## dagger (Dec 11, 2003)

*Basic* and *[size=+1]Escape from L.A.[/size]*


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## TracerBullet42 (Dec 11, 2003)

Cthulhu's Librarian said:
			
		

> Anime. When I'm supposed to tell the characters apart by the color/shape/size of their hair, it doesn't work for me.




Ok, I don't mean to derail things at all...but with all the talk about not getting anime, I have to post this link.  It beautifully captures the spirit of...well...nearly every anime thing I've ever seen...

(Note:  I don't get anime either)

http://www.homestarrunner.com/sbemail57.html


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## KnowTheToe (Dec 11, 2003)

Spiderman


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## barsoomcore (Dec 11, 2003)

If you don't "get" anime, keep in mind that talking about anime as though it were a genre is pretty misleading -- that's like talking about video games as though they were all the same.

Now, I don't get video games, so I'm not saying you can't just not get anime, but just saying.

Anyway, before you give up on anime, try _Princess Mononoke_ -- and if possible, watch it in Japanese with English subtitles (or the language of your choice, I guess). The much-ballyhooed English dub with Gillian Anderson and Billy-Bob Thorton is actually rather poor, and the flatness of the voices detracts a great deal from the story.

Which is one of the more complex and thoughtful stories you'll see on the big screen.

If you don't like _that_, then give up on anime. I won't complain.  

The other thing about Mafia stories is they have built-in drama. For these people, their daily work is life and death, so there's lots of drama in their lives, and so they are natural subjects for stories. It's like cop shows or courtroom suspense -- natural drama.

Same thing with romantic comedies -- you're watching to see HOW they get together, not IF they get together. I love a well-done romantic comedy.

There aren't any genres I dislike, as far as I know. I just dislike movies that do whatever genre they're in poorly.

But movies I don't get are legion. And pretty much equal to movies I don't like, so that's not so interesting a discussion.


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## KnowTheToe (Dec 11, 2003)

Office Space


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## Tarrasque Wrangler (Dec 11, 2003)

dagger said:
			
		

> *Basic* and *[size=+1]Escape from L.A.[/size]*



 But Dagger, no one liked those movies...

 I guess I'd have to put westerns in there, which surprises me.  I'm always mesmerized by Clint Eastwood's work, and Unforgiven is one of my favorite films ever.  But I think that speaks more to Clint's talent then my attraction to the genre.  Most old westerns I see have the same cookie cutter plots, and very often the same cookie cutter actors.  I think the only "old" westerns I'd go out of my way to see are Magnificent Seven and The Wild Bunch.

 PS The key to Sopranos is not to look at it as a glorification of the mob (which would be hard to do by any stretch of the imagination) but as an indictment of our culture's obsession with psychotherapy as a means to relieve our guilt.  That theme was very explicit in the first two seasons at least, but has kind of faded into the background as they de-emphasize Tony's sessions with Dr. Melfi.


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## Darrin Drader (Dec 11, 2003)

diaglo said:
			
		

> Mr. Bean...Rowan Atkinson. any movie he is in.




Apparently you haven't seen Black Adder? I do agree with you about Mr. Bean. Its not my cup of tea either.

The one movie that people seem to love that I just don't get: Bucakroo Bonzai. The only thing I could find of value in that movie is that quote everybody and their dog wants to repeat, even though it isn't really that great. I'm not saying its a bad movie - I just don't get it.


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## Cthulhu's Librarian (Dec 11, 2003)

barsoomcore said:
			
		

> Anyway, before you give up on anime, try _Princess Mononoke_ -- and if possible, watch it in Japanese with English subtitles (or the language of your choice, I guess). The much-ballyhooed English dub with Gillian Anderson and Billy-Bob Thorton is actually rather poor, and the flatness of the voices detracts a great deal from the story.
> 
> Which is one of the more complex and thoughtful stories you'll see on the big screen.
> 
> If you don't like _that_, then give up on anime. I won't complain.



 I have tried Princess Mononoke. Twice. Yes, its a good story, but the animation is distracting. I don't like the look of anime, but I do like lots of other animated films. I have a hard time getting past the angular, stiff, and (IMHO) simplistic artwork. When I watch it, all I see is bad art getting in the way of a decent story that diserved better.


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## Cthulhu's Librarian (Dec 11, 2003)

KnowTheToe said:
			
		

> Office Space



 Um, yeah... Well.... I'm going to need to see your TPS reports before we can look into this further.


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## Pielorinho (Dec 11, 2003)

Cthulhu's Librarian said:
			
		

> I have a hard time getting past the angular, stiff, and (IMHO) simplistic artwork. When I watch it, all I see is bad art getting in the way of a decent story that diserved better.



Really?  Different strokes and all, but I thought Princess Monoke was striking for its LACK of simplistic artwork.  The New York Times referred to the movie as "painterly," and that word has stuck in my head ever since.  In my view, it's got some of the most complex and beautiful artwork I've ever seen in a movie.

I'm curious whether folks who hate the Mafia genre have seen _Ghost Dog_, and if so, what they think of it.  Especially of the Mafia guys in it .

As for a movie I don't get:  _Dogma_ left me cold (and not because of the blasphemy -- I'm about as irreverent a godless heathen as you're likely to find).  And something about _Wax, or the Invention of Television Amongst the Bees_ rubbed me the wrong way.

Daniel


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## Dark Jezter (Dec 11, 2003)

I've never understood why anyone over the age of 13 would like Dragon Ball Z.  It's a poorly-animated, drawn-out (over 300 episodes, IIRC), repetetive show where every episode involves super-powered martial artists screaming about how powerful they are shortly before they start blowing up the countryside.


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## dagger (Dec 11, 2003)

My bad......

I would have to go with Terminator 2 then.


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## Maraxle (Dec 11, 2003)

KnowTheToe said:
			
		

> Office Space



I take it that you don't work in the corporate environment then.  Everyone I know who does can see themselves/their coworkers/their boss in that movie.  That whole movie reminds me of my life.

As for movies that I just don't see the appeal of, I'd have to say most Stanley Kubrick films.  I like Spartacus and The Shining, but other than that, I just can't get into his films.  Clockwork Orange in particular puts me to sleep.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Dec 11, 2003)

Cthulhu's Librarian said:
			
		

> I have tried Princess Mononoke. Twice. Yes, its a good story, but the animation is distracting. I don't like the look of anime, but I do like lots of other animated films. I have a hard time getting past the angular, stiff, and (IMHO) simplistic artwork. When I watch it, all I see is bad art getting in the way of a decent story that diserved better.



 I didn't really like Mononoke, and I do like anime. The thing is, just like in ALL animation, different shows have different artists and you can't use one to judge them all. Its just we have such a limited exposure here in America still...ah well, I can understand not liking it though. 
As for what I don't get...another vote for DBZ here.


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## Barendd Nobeard (Dec 11, 2003)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> Anime. I keep trying to like it, and I simply can't find one that is better than "OK" at most.



Did you try _Grave of the Fireflies_?  I could lend it to you.  It's depressing as hell, but not your typical anime.





			
				Pielorinho said:
			
		

> As for a movie I don't get:  _Dogma_ left me cold (and not because of the blasphemy -- I'm about as irreverent a godless heathen as you're likely to find).
> Daniel



The people I know who like _Dogma_ are either (1) Catholics, (2) former Catholics, or (3) married to Catholics.  Maybe it's just a Catholic thing.  And....I'll shut up now to avoid a religious discussion.


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## Jhamin (Dec 11, 2003)

Mine is Tarentino Films.

Why is this man worshipped so?  Lots of violence and gore.  Much more foreward about it than most, which is a distinguishing feature I guess. But people _worship_ these films.

I just never got it.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Dec 11, 2003)

I love Tarentino becuase of scense like the diner scene that opens up Resevior Dogs, instead of characters speaking like they have speech writers and teams of people telling them how to speak poetically they talk like and about the kind of BS that most people waste time chatting about.   I like him becuase of his great dialog and sence of character.   

I can't get Jackass or any reality TV.   I can't fathom the attraction.


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## takyris (Dec 11, 2003)

Ditto liking Tarantino's dialogue, and being unwowed when he moved from dialogue to "nothing but the violence".

I liked Mononoke, and I liked Spirited Away as well.  Definitely not against all anime, although there's a certain brand of it that rubs me the wrong way.  (The very passive power fantasy in which a normal guy has some magical creature fall in love with him, only he never realizes it, and she can't tell him and it's sad, and it goes on for episode after episode that way.  I can completely understand why ordinary-looking geeks like movies where some kind of sorceress, goddess, angel, demon, or whatever falls in love witht he ordinary-looking geek, while he never realizes it, but it still makes me cringe just a little bit and worry about their hopes for having any kind of normal relationship.  I'm including some of my friends in that category.  No offense is intended.)

Actually, I don't get Woody Allen movies.  I've tried, but they just don't do it for me.  It's like the entire concept uses agreed-upon rules that I've never actually witnessed.  I think I'm in the wrong age, religious group, and geographical area to get Woody Allen movies.  Woody Allen movies are the cinematic equivalent of the Dave Matthews Band: I know that I *should* like them, but, except for a few parts of a few pieces, they just don't do it for me.

And to validate a hypothesis mentioned above: I'm an irritated Catholic (church done my non-Catholic wife wrong, and I chose her over it), and I loved "Dogma".  So did my strongly Catholic mother, although she was surprised by some of the language.


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## Dagger75 (Dec 11, 2003)

A few of mine.  

   Anime. Mostly the Salior Moon and DBZ stuff.  I don't get how grown men could like those.  I like Ghost in the Shell, Record of Lodoss War and Princess Mononoke.


 Romantic Comadies-  Why are these freakin things popular. They are all the same. 

 Monty Python Movies-  There supposed to be funny, gamers love them, I play along.


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## Mog Elffoe (Dec 12, 2003)

Reality TV, especially Survivor.  I watched a whole season of it because my roommate was hooked on the show but I really don't get it at all.  That said, I did catch the episode where the guy had his buddy come on the show and tell everybody that his grandmother was dead when she was really alive and well in order to get the sympathy of the group.  THAT, I thought was pretty funny.


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## Desdichado (Dec 12, 2003)

Princess Monanoke will likely be my last attempt to "get" anime, although I've had a hard time getting excited to try.  Previously, I'd consider the "best" anime I've seen so far to be either the Final Fantasy CGI movie or Ghost in the Shell.  Ranma 1/2 is also watchable, but not excellent by any means.

Really, it's the stylistic thrust of anime that puts me off.  The whole staring out at the sunset cheesy wannabe existentialism too.


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## CrusaderX (Dec 12, 2003)

Kevin Smith movies.  My friends are alot funnier.


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## takyris (Dec 12, 2003)

JD: In a nutshell, yes.  Staring out into the sunset.  Staring out into the bloody sunset.  That was the cause of my "If you slow down the game by staring off into the sunset while other people are trying to make plans, ninjas are going to leap out and pelt you with grenades" rule.


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## Pseudonym (Dec 12, 2003)

TiQuinn said:
			
		

> It's the movie that you can't stand that everyone else on God's green Earth seems to love.



_Highlander_.  It wasn't that good of a movie when I was twelve, and it hasn't gotten any better with age; yet it's one of those movies that the gamer geek scene seems to deify.

If we're opening up the thread to TV shows, I'll add the entire reality TV genre and _Buffy the Vampire Slayer_; another of those shows the everyone around me loved that I found rather lackluster.  If any one thing will be the cause of my relationship ending, it'll be my girlfriend's love of _Buffy_ and my distain for it.


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## Vocenoctum (Dec 12, 2003)

Jhamin said:
			
		

> Mine is Tarentino Films.
> 
> Why is this man worshipped so?  Lots of violence and gore.  Much more foreward about it than most, which is a distinguishing feature I guess. But people _worship_ these films.
> 
> I just never got it.




I agree, the one's I've seen have been Horrid.

I'll add;
Wild Things
I just don't get it. Sure, Denise Richards, but... ugh!

and Gattica, same, except I cant' stand Uma Thurman.

As for Anime, I dislike most of the genre, but I'm addicted to Inuyasha. It'd actually problably be more to my liking without some of the anime elements, but oh well.


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## KenM (Dec 12, 2003)

One other film I hated was Signs. It was nothing like they promoted it as IMO. EVERYTIME they were going to show something good, the lights went out or something, until the end. They also never explained how the world/ socitey changed after the aliens came.


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## gregweller (Dec 12, 2003)

I've never gotten 'Signs' either. I remember leaving the theatre and driving home, and getting increasingly irritated by the ending. Looking back it was almost funny--getting home and having my wife ask me 'how did you like the movie' and then going into this tirade for a good five minute and then breaking out laughing when she said 'well, I guess we won't be getting *that* on DVD'... Another one is 'Unforgiven'. I always thought that that is a movie I should like, loving most of Eastwood's westerns, but I've never been able to wrap my mind around it.


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## Alcareru (Dec 12, 2003)

TracerBullet42 said:
			
		

> Ok, I don't mean to derail things at all...but with all the talk about not getting anime, I have to post this link.  It beautifully captures the spirit of...well...nearly every anime thing I've ever seen...
> 
> (Note:  I don't get anime either)
> 
> http://www.homestarrunner.com/sbemail57.html




I get some anime. That homestarrrunner link was quite funny IMHO.


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## Turlogh (Dec 12, 2003)

Buckaroo Banzia(sp?), Naked Lunch, reality TV shows, Romantic Comedies, DragonBallZ. Really don't see the point/purpose of these.
I do like anime but only certian kinds (Vampire Hunter D, Slayers and Ninja Scroll are favorites), but wasn't very impressed with Princess Monanoke and Wings of the Hoanames (sp)


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## pogre (Dec 12, 2003)

Adam Sandler.
Why is he a star?

Anime


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## LightPhoenix (Dec 12, 2003)

I'm gonna win myself no friends with this, but rememeber you can't criticize taste... 

Well, on the anime front, specifically _DBZ_ and _Evangelion_.  I've seen both _(Eva_ all the way through)_,_ and thought they both were absolutely terrible.

On a related note, anime as an artistic medium.  I just do not see the attraction in it - the total angularness of it just doesn't appeal to me.

_The Simpsons_.  It was clever at first but got rapidly old.  Sorry, but including as many pop culture references in half an hour as you can is _not_ funny.

_Sex and the City_.  Let's pretend we're about female empowerment when we take four common stereotypes and put them in situations where they worry about guys.

Any musical.  Especially _Rent_.  And I'm a huge fan of classical music and to a lesser extent opera.

Sandra Bullock.  She's a terrible actress.

Carrottop, Rowan Atkinson, and most other physical actors.  Any of Jim Carrey's physical humor stuff applies here too, but I think he's a great actor when he isn't doing it.  And in _Liar, Liar._

_Minority Report._  Didn't think it was that great, is all.


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## TracerBullet42 (Dec 12, 2003)

Alcareru said:
			
		

> I get some anime. That homestarrrunner link was quite funny IMHO.




Glad you liked it...I think it's hilarious...and rather accurate too.

Gotta love Strongbad.


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## Datt (Dec 13, 2003)

Cthulhu's Librarian said:
			
		

> Um, yeah... Well.... I'm going to need to see your TPS reports before we can look into this further.




Yeah...umm...we're...umm...going to need you to...umm...move your desk...ummm..again....


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## Villano (Dec 13, 2003)

I don't understand movies like *Monster's Ball*.  Movies that focus on unlikeable characters who lead terrible lives and treat each other like crap.  I want to enjoy the movies I watch, not be overcome with the urge to kill myself.

Another type of film I hate is what I term "Sean Penn Movies".  Now, Sean Penn doesn't have to act in a film to have it be a Sean Penn Movie, but his films tend to embody this type of movie.  

What's a Sean Penn Movie like?  Well, they are kind of like the Monster's Ball-type film, but suffer from dellusions of grandeur.  I recently read a review of Penn's new film *21 Grams* and it was described as trying too hard to say, "Look at me, I'm very serious and important."  Best description I've seen of this sub-genre.  Watch the trailers for his films and they all look like they were shot through a blue filter and everyone walks around mumbling and depressed while the narrator tells you that this is the "most important film of the year".  Geez!   

As for specific films I don't get:  Tsui Hark movies (too much wirework and quick cuts) and I really can't understand how anyone liked *House Of 1,000 Corpses*.  Granted, there were some nice visuals in that, but Rob Zombie just doesn't understand how to _construct_ a story.  I wrote a mini-review of it once and I pointed out that I didn't need spoiler warnings since Zombie spoils everything himself.  

For example, after the heroes pick up Baby, the hitch hiker, Zombie includes a b&w scene of her talking to the camera about how to kill people.  Gee, you think she's going to "surprisingly" turn out to be nuts?   He does things like this again and again.


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## BluWolf (Dec 13, 2003)

I love eclectic movies. I thought Magnolia was great.

I did not get Punch Drunk Love. I will admit, I own it and have yet to get all the way through it. It s f---ing torture.

Eyes wide shut. Huh? (and I actually like most Kubrick films).

Meet the Parents. I like dark comedies but that movie was uncomforatble like a prostate exam.

Face off. Oh my god that movie was dull.

About Schmidt. It aspired. Didn't deliver.


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## Templetroll (Dec 13, 2003)

Michael Tree said:
			
		

> DragonballZ and similar anime.  I just don't get it.  Not only is there no plot that I can determine, but it's the most boringly slow 'action' cartoon I've ever seen.
> 
> I also don't really get the Mafia genre.  Nor do I get westerns.




"Dragonball" was a great series that introduced great characters in their own storylines where their interaction with the main character was the focus of short story arcs.

"DragonballZ" is juggling all those characters in long storylines, also called one fight scene.

Watch the first, enjoy.  Watch the rest and look for the small snippets of character and story that seperate various chunks of the fight.


Westerns are epic odes to individualism, "High Noon" is the prime example of that.  This individualism is not as well regarded nowadays and further comment could get into political commentary.  Each western ususally has some one person standing up for themselves against terrible odds; it can be a rancher, a railroad magnate, weather, environment or whatever.  It tends to be about the person working alone or just with those nearby who help because they want to.


----------



## Templetroll (Dec 13, 2003)

Tarrasque Wrangler said:
			
		

> But Dagger, no one liked those movies...
> 
> I guess I'd have to put westerns in there, which surprises me.  I'm always mesmerized by Clint Eastwood's work, and Unforgiven is one of my favorite films ever.  But I think that speaks more to Clint's talent then my attraction to the genre.  Most old westerns I see have the same cookie cutter plots, and very often the same cookie cutter actors.  I think the only "old" westerns I'd go out of my way to see are Magnificent Seven and The Wild Bunch.




"High Noon"
"Good, the Bad and the Ugly"
The John Wayne western - "Stagecoach", "The Shootist"
episodes of "The Lone Ranger", "The Rifleman" and "Gunsmoke"

Western comedies
"Cat Ballou"
"Hallelujah Trail"
"Cheyenne Social Club"

btw, westerns had really good music!


----------



## Tarrasque Wrangler (Dec 13, 2003)

Oh, I wouldn't say there aren't plenty of good westerns out there (except for John Wayne - never understood the appeal), I just can't get into them.  Unless it's something really out there like The Wild Bunch, it all just feels so same-old to me.

 They do have great music though.  For my money's worth, the Magnificent Seven theme is the shizzle.


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## Dark Jezter (Dec 13, 2003)

Templetroll said:
			
		

> Westerns are epic odes to individualism, "High Noon" is the prime example of that.  This individualism is not as well regarded nowadays and further comment could get into political commentary.  Each western ususally has some one person standing up for themselves against terrible odds; it can be a rancher, a railroad magnate, weather, environment or whatever.  It tends to be about the person working alone or just with those nearby who help because they want to.




You just explained a big reason why I like westerns so much.  It's a pity that westerns are less common than they used to be.


----------



## Uzumaki (Dec 13, 2003)

Flash movies I don't get:
Strongbad.
Happy Tree Friends.

TV shows I don't get:
Futurama.
Police dramas.

I second (or third, or fourth) the vote for Mafia movies and slapstick comedies. Anything with Rob Schneider in it. People actually see these things?


----------



## Crothian (Dec 13, 2003)

I didn't get the movie Cemetery Man.  Did anyone get this movie??


----------



## tetsujin28 (Dec 13, 2003)

Cthulhu's Librarian said:
			
		

> Um, yeah... Well.... I'm going to need to see your TPS reports before we can look into this further.



Umm...yeah...did you get the memo?


----------



## tetsujin28 (Dec 13, 2003)

Crothian said:
			
		

> I didn't get the movie Cemetery Man.  Did anyone get this movie??



That movie rules.


----------



## tetsujin28 (Dec 13, 2003)

Uzumaki said:
			
		

> Flash movies I don't get:
> Strongbad.



Trogdor's gonna whup yo butt.


----------



## Hypersmurf (Dec 14, 2003)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> and Gattica, same, except I cant' stand Uma Thurman.




I rather like Gattaca, _in spite of_ Uma Thurman.

Dangerous Liaisons is another film I really like, in spite of both Uma Thurman _and_ Keanu Reeves 

But I remember reading about the casting of _Batman and Robin_, and a comment from the director along the lines of "The comics say that Poison Ivy is the most beautiful woman in the world, and to me, that means Uma Thurman."

My immediate reaction was something like "You _what_?!"



			
				Templetroll said:
			
		

> "Good, the Bad and the Ugly"




I enjoy the film, but I find often if I watch it, it's just an excuse to get to the gunfight at the end.

I _adore_ the direction of that scene.  Something like six minutes of nothing but people staring at each other.  Fantastic.

(Huh.  One of my other favourite scenes from any movie ever is at the start of _Conan the Barbarian_, where Thulsa Doom and Mrs the Barbarian stare at each other for a while before he chops her head off.  There seems to be a common theme going on here.)

-Hyp.


----------



## Andrew D. Gable (Dec 14, 2003)

Highlander for me, too.  I could just never get into it, although I wanted to... plus, I loathe Christopher Lambert.  Just IMHO.


----------



## Hypersmurf (Dec 14, 2003)

Andrew D. Gable said:
			
		

> ... plus, I loathe Christopher Lambert.




"Good!  That is a perfect way to start."

-Hyp.


----------



## ConnorSB (Dec 14, 2003)

What I simply cannot understand is the appeal of reality tv, especially survivor. For one thing, there is no way that reality tv is actually real, because people's actions are always tainted by the knowledge that they are on camera. 

I mean, sure, some people have the jewels to just be themselves, completly and utterly, on camera, but that too taints the video. 

Basically everyone on reality tv is either "acting for the camera," or is themselves in no way an average person, as the average person would never bare thier souls on camera.

So in the sense of reality tv as some sort of drama show, it is in no way real.

Secondly, a bunch of the reality tv shows basically put thier players in situtations that would never, ever occur in real life. Like survivor. In real life, no one would kick each other off a deserted island. I watched the very first episode of survivor, thinking it might actually be somehow accurate to real life, where everyone hunts and fishes and gathers berries and tries to, well, survive nature.

And the first person they kick out is the ex-marine: the only one among them who could actually "survive" in a real life ship wreck. That soured me for the whole show, and I just stopped watching.

But... why do people watch reality tv if it isn't at all real? If it was reality tv, it would be a show about taking boring commutes to your sort of boring job, and then going to home depot to compare paint chips for the kitchen ceiling. 

not voting people off some mythical island, where you have to make your own food and starve, despite the fact that the entire camera crew around you is basically on vacation, staying at nice hotels and eating big dinners...

I just don't get it.
Connor


----------



## Elf Witch (Dec 14, 2003)

I don't get Jim Carrey movies. I cannot stand him. 

I also don't get mafia movies for the reasons that others have listed. The same for Woody Allen most of the time I think they are just self indulgent mental masturbation movies.

The one tV show that I never got was Seinfeld the characters were horrible pieces of trash and the show was boring. I just never understood the allure of it.


----------



## WanderingMonster (Dec 14, 2003)

I'd have to say the SNL breakout movies.  The movies that are designed to launch popular SNL alumni into movie-stardom.  Very, very few are worth the bother of renting, much less seeing at a theater.  Most of these movies star Adam Sandler, David Spade, Chris Farley, or Molly Shannon.

I admit to liking some of these movies, but I'm comfortable making the blanket statement that most of them suck.  And I suppose I'm talking mostly about modern SNL cast members.  I love the old crowd like Billy Crystal, Christopher Guest (I _love _Best of Show and A Mighty Wind), Bill Murray, and Dan Akroyd.

Oh, and Austin Powers is a very guilty pleasure of mine.


----------



## MaxKaladin (Dec 14, 2003)

I, also, don't get the whole mafia movie thing.  Its a bunch of brutal, ill educated thugs.  Ditto for the "urban thug" movies.  The ones with a bunch of scumbags from some inner city strutting around "popping a cap" in someone or whatever.  

I do not understand the appeal of (faux-)reality TV.  Its not real, people.  It is often more contrived than regular TV shows (see Survivor for an example).  

I don't get Seinfeld.  Its a show about a bunch of dysfunctional, irritating people.  The only show I ever liked was the final one when they left New York (where their antics are evidently acceptable), got arrested for failing to render aid to someone being robbed (failing to call police on their cellphone and instead choosing to videotape and make fun of the victim -- and people _like_ these characters...) and sent to jail for it.  For once someone recognized them for what they were and gave them what they deserved for their actions.  

I don't understand horror movies.  I just don't understand why watching people be terrified and doing all the wrong things is entertaining.  Especially given how contrived these situations are.  So many things go wrong at once to get people alone with the killer and keep them from escaping that its improbable to say the least.  I know they're supposed to scare me, but they don't.  They occasionally _startle_me when the bad guy jumps out from behind the door or whatever, but that's not the same as being scared.  

I don't really understand "obnoxious" movies.  By that I mean those movies where you get to watch someone like Adam Sandler spend two hours being rude, crude and obnoxious to people (who have often committed no crime aside from expecting others to have some manners).  

I suppose in some cases I understand what it is that appeals to some people, but not _why_.


----------



## Templetroll (Dec 14, 2003)

I understood that Pauly Shore got on TV because of his family connections.  I never understood why there were other shows and movies done with him.

My daughter wanted to watch Big Daddy with Adam Sandler; I made sure to point out that as mushy as the story was with the kid it always broke down with Sandler's character being ignorant and selfish.  His movies seem to follow that pattern.  I find his work easy to miss.

I don't understand why they had to ruin "The Cat in the Hat" the way they did.  I didn't see it and don't plan to after reading about what was in it.  My daughter noticed in the preview that they _left the house_.  The whole basis of the story was it was a rainy day and they were stuck in the house while their mother was out.  From reviews they tossed in all manner of sexual innuendo, supposedly to appeal to adults, and toilet humor, to appeal to older kids I suppose.  There was no need, that was a great story ready to be told the way it was in the book.


----------



## Aeolius (Dec 14, 2003)

Templetroll said:
			
		

> I don't understand why they had to ruin "The Cat in the Hat" the way they did.




Agreed. I refused to take my kids to see that one as well, based on the materials shown in the teasers and trailers.


----------



## KenM (Dec 15, 2003)

I mentioned Signs earlier. One other movie was The Sixth Sense. I got it, but everyone said there was a great, unexpected twist at the end.  I know what the basic plot of the movie was before I saw it. But I figured out what the "big twist" was like 10 minutes into it.


----------



## Dark Jezter (Dec 15, 2003)

I don't get Neon Genesis Evangelion.  It's overrated, nonsensical crap that otaku, for some reason, think is brilliant and groundbreaking.

I'd share more of my comments, but instead I'll just point you to this link.  (Warning: Contains language that would make Eric's grandmother blush)

Come to think of it, there's very few anime that I like.  I get especially tired of "shoujo" anime (Sailor Moon and the like, intended for adolescent girls but watched religiously by adult male anime fanboys), and "harem" animes (which basically involve one geeky guy surrounded by beautiful women who all lust after him).


----------



## WayneLigon (Dec 15, 2003)

Villano said:
			
		

> ... really can't understand how anyone liked *House Of 1,000 Corpses*. ....there were some nice visuals in that........



You answered your own question, right there.


----------



## WayneLigon (Dec 15, 2003)

Templetroll said:
			
		

> Westerns are epic odes to individualism, "High Noon" is the prime example of that. ... Each western ususally has some one person standing up for themselves against terrible odds; it can be a rancher, a railroad magnate, weather, environment or whatever....



Indeed. Recently, we've seen both _Open Range_ and _The Missing_ with just these themes or subthemes. Usually with the added part 'we tried to do things the 'civilized' way but that didn't work. Now we do what needs to be done ourselves.'



Spoiler



Open Range: these guys killed our friend. We tried going to the sheriff but he's in their pay. So we took it on ourselves to get vengence for our friend. The Missing: We went to the Army but they were no help. So we have to do this thing on our own.


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## WayneLigon (Dec 15, 2003)

Me, I love anime in general but I don't love all of it. That's why I love Netflix: I can try out a series and see if I like it. 

_Revolutionary Girl Utena_. People _rave_ about this series. I couldn't get past the second disc. I'm not exactly sure what I didn't like about it.

_Aura Battler Dunbine._ People _rave_ about this series. I couldn't get past the third episode. Couldn't take the stilted animation but I can overlook that for a good plot; couldn't find that either.


----------



## Cthulhu's Librarian (Dec 15, 2003)

tetsujin28 said:
			
		

> Umm...yeah...did you get the memo?



 Your going to have to talk to payroll about that. MmmmmKK?


----------



## Villano (Dec 15, 2003)

KenM said:
			
		

> I mentioned Signs earlier. One other movie was The Sixth Sense. I got it, but everyone said there was a great, unexpected twist at the end.  I know what the basic plot of the movie was before I saw it. But I figured out what the "big twist" was like 10 minutes into it.




I figured it out from the trailer.   

Never saw either movie, don't want to.



			
				Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> I don't get Neon Genesis Evangelion.  It's overrated, nonsensical crap that otaku, for some reason, think is brilliant and groundbreaking.
> 
> Come to think of it, there's very few anime that I like.  I get especially tired of "shoujo" anime (Sailor Moon and the like, intended for adolescent girls but watched religiously by adult male anime fanboys),




I've never gotten giant robot anime.  True, I loved Robotech as a kid and the remake of Gigantor that Sci-Fi aired in the early '90s, but that's about it.

I have to admit to watching Sailor Moon when it first aired in the US.  Of course, at the time, the only anime I saw was what would air on tv.  I didn't bother watching it when it reaired on Toonami.  

Still, I like the designs on the show.



> and "harem" animes (which basically involve one geeky guy surrounded by beautiful women who all lust after him).




Hey, Tenchi Muyo rules.  



			
				Villano said:
			
		

> I really can't understand how anyone liked *House Of 1,000 Corpses*.  Granted, there were some nice visuals





			
				WayneLigon said:
			
		

> You answered your own question, right there.




I can understand people liking the way it looks, but I've read so many reviews of it supposedly being "groundbreaking" and "original".  People have gone so far as to claim it "reinvents the genre".  IMHO, it was none of those things.  It was a long music video with no story structure.


----------



## JacktheRabbit (Dec 15, 2003)

Mallus said:
			
		

> First off, who in their heart of hearts doesn't wish they were above the rules that govern polite society for time to time. Who hasn't been cut off on the highway and fantasized about following the jerk to a rest stop, whacking him, and depositing the body in a large, Mob-owned trash recepticle?




Do we have that many low self-esteem people in this country? I certainly don't watch shows like that or carry feelings of wishing I was above the law so I could whack people on ocassion.


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## JacktheRabbit (Dec 15, 2003)

ssampier said:
			
		

> Frankly I don't understand the appeal of shows like Jackass. You have three people that do insanely stupid, inane stunts on the show to what end? Many times they end up in the hospital. On such occassions the stuntperson acts like it is a badge of honor to get hurt. My friends love this show and try as I may I can't like it.




Add to this shows like Scare Tactics, Punked, or Survivor where as a sign of a depraved society millions of people tune into shows merely for the amusement generated from watching some innocent person get f*cked with. Though at least in Survivor they knew what they were getting into when they signed up to be f*cked with.


----------



## TracerBullet42 (Dec 15, 2003)

MaxKaladin said:
			
		

> I do not understand the appeal of (faux-)reality TV.  Its not real, people.  It is often more contrived than regular TV shows (see Survivor for an example).




Ok, I've seen several people make this comment so far.  As someone who enjoys some "reality tv" shows, I would like to defend them for a moment.  We like them because they are entertaining, not because they are "real".

I understand that "reality tv" is not real.  That does not mean it is not entertaining.  It's just been given a poor name.

When it comes down to it, nothing on tv is real.  So there.


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## Storm Raven (Dec 15, 2003)

ConnorSB said:
			
		

> Secondly, a bunch of the reality tv shows basically put thier players in situtations that would never, ever occur in real life. Like survivor. In real life, no one would kick each other off a deserted island. I watched the very first episode of survivor, thinking it might actually be somehow accurate to real life, where everyone hunts and fishes and gathers berries and tries to, well, survive nature.
> 
> And the first person they kick out is the ex-marine: the only one among them who could actually "survive" in a real life ship wreck. That soured me for the whole show, and I just stopped watching.




_Survivor_ isn't about surviving nature. It is about game theory. If you like game theory (like I do), watching it being put into action is fun.


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## buzzard (Dec 15, 2003)

OK I'm going to go with the lack of use for Sienfeld. I also have no use for Friends. 

Though one movie which hasn't been mentioned which I had no use for was Seven. I found it forced, pretentious, and overdone. I was relieved to get out of that one, and don't have any desire to see even a part of it again. 

buzzard


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## Dark Jezter (Dec 15, 2003)

Villano said:
			
		

> Hey, Tenchi Muyo rules.




To its credit, Tenchi Muyo is the only harem anime that I've enjoyed watching.

But you couldn't pay me to watch shows like Love Hina or Ai Yori Aoishi (don't know if I spelled the title of that one right).


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## DM_Matt (Dec 15, 2003)

I don't like most Stgar Trek.  Its boring.  I don't like Farscape either.  Why?  I don;t really know,  it just doesn't do it for me.  paradoxically, I nonetheless love Stargate SG-1.

I don't really get Monty Python.  I know its funny, I feel that I SHOULD like it, but its just not as good as I want it to be.  Perhaps it's because I'm not British.

OTOH, I very much enjoy Woody Allen and Seinfeld, very possibly partially due to my being the optimal ethnicity for those.


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## Desdichado (Dec 15, 2003)

Templetroll said:
			
		

> btw, westerns had really good music!



Especially "Paint Your Wagon"...


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## s/LaSH (Dec 16, 2003)

I tend not to get 'normal' things, which (for the purposes of argument) includes 'reality' TV. The more unrealistic explosions, weird technology, strange vistas of another time, etc, the better. Otherwise... I've already got it, being both human and alive. Maybe I'm easily bored by the things that are around me every day of my life...?

I don't so much _not_ watch things as watch things that I like. There are very few of them. I'm fortunate enough to have some kind of (vague) instinctive insight into the Japanese philisophical mindset, so I can enjoy anime - if it's good. I hate the 'visual shorthand' of giant sweatdrops and mouths bigger than heads, but I can get past that most of the time. I'm one of those grown men who watches shoujo (girl's anime - almost exclusively Cardcaptors), for the dual reasons that it's happy (and I like being happy), and that because 'it's for girls', the censors aren't as strict with the violence. At which I grin wickedly and go back to watching the sub, in which that all takes a back seat to the hideous web of relationships blossoming in all ways but the right one.

Also, having looked around a bit, I can say that 'angular' anime style isn't representative of the genre as a whole - the eighties were very rounded in style, and probably put people off for that as well. And being an artist, I can appreciate the cultural impact that a brush has had on the overall anime style; just that one implement explains a lot.

I also don't get broadcast sports. I think people should _play_, not _watch_; that's the whole point, isn't it? Play is something that animals do to keep in shape. Humans just codify it a little more. Why go any further?

Finally, I do get Monty Python. Most of the time. Their comedy is rich with ideas, but sometimes the execution is flawed - they go on too long. This really reiterates the point that I'll like anything that's _good_.


----------



## Vocenoctum (Dec 16, 2003)

DocMoriartty said:
			
		

> Add to this shows like Scare Tactics, Punked, or Survivor where as a sign of a depraved society millions of people tune into shows merely for the amusement generated from watching some innocent person get f*cked with.




I watched an Ep of Scare Tactics, and it was boring IMO, but I liked Punk'd the first season. Some of the stuff was very clever, especially the red carpet stuff. Sure some of it was mean to an extent, but who DOESN'T want to see Timberlake cry? (he took it well anyway...)

But the new season of Punk'd is just mean. Very uncomfortable situations, badly done. It's no longer clever, and will most likely go away soon.
As an example, in first season they convince Pink that her BF is implicating her in a stolen motorcycle plot. In current season, they have <girl whose name I forgot> as teh head of a sweat shop for clothing. They're yelling, screaming, throwing stuff. They didn't have the same finesse they did in the first one, and it's just pitiful.


----------



## pezagent (Dec 16, 2003)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> I love Tarentino because of scene like the diner scene that opens up Resevior Dogs, instead of characters speaking like they have speech writers and teams of people telling them how to speak poetically they talk like and about the kind of BS that most people waste time chatting about.   I like him because of his great dialog and sense of character.






			
				takyris said:
			
		

> Ditto liking Tarantino's dialogue, and being unwowed when he moved from dialogue to "nothing but the violence".




Argh! Tarantino can't write his way out of a paper bag! 

His success can be attributed more to Hollywood's failure--as studios hone and polish the latest blockbuster mediocrity becomes king. Honestly, if you want good dialog, go see a good, contemporary play like _House of Blue Leaves_ and you'll start to understand that Tarantino's hogwash isn't dialog--it's pretentious scene writing 101--revealing the subtext. There's still no conflict or drama in his movies. It's all sophomoric "what if" fantasy. _Wouldn't it be cool if "this" actually happened like "this?"_ Characters in Tarantino's films aren't characters--they're puppets. No soul, no depth, no drama, just surface-level BS. John Hughes was writing this stuff long before Tarantino came along. Only he kept _Sixteen Candles_ rated PG. Replace Ringwald with Thurman and you've got _Sixteen Candles 2: Pulp Fiction._

As no other Hollywood film knows how to enter this territory (everybody is writing for the cliché, for a buck) QT comes off as some sort of "genius" when the truth is he's borrowed every scene he's ever written/shot from _some other movie._ You know that scene in Pulp Fiction where Uma ODs and they revive her by plunging a needle in her heart? That was taken from the Martin Scorsese documentary _American Boy: A Profile of Steven Prince_ where Steven Prince is describing this event as it _actually happened_ to him. (It's actually a very entertaining film.) Tarantino ripped it almost word for word. He's really just a cutNpaste boy. Just watching the previews for _Kill Bill_ made me sick, as he borrows and steals blatantly from every movie ever made, including _Cats and Dogs._ Great dialog? Sense of character? Right. Especially with lines like: "Silly Rabbit?" I go to the movies to _escape_ mediocrity and cliché, not to celebrate it.

Perhaps he should be writing speeches for the new Governator of California. Then he could _pulp him up._

/johnny


----------



## pezagent (Dec 16, 2003)

Oh yeah,

Before I went off on my Tarantino-bashing, I forgot there's a lot of people in here that have "trouble" with Anime. Sometimes Anime is hard to get into, considering the Japanese style of "cartoon expression". The culture is different and the cartoons definately reflect a lot of it. I think a lot of Japanese Anime is heavy on the _escapism_ so a lot isn't dumped in your lap--one just has to go with the flow and stop trying to put it within a Western-culture context.

However, I believe there are some Anime movies that anyone can enjoy--my favorite all-time Anime masterpiece is *Ninja Scroll* and if you haven't seen that movie then you're really missing out. On a more light-hearted note, one of the best movies ever made of recent was *Spirited Away* by Hayao Miyazaki. If you haven't seen that yet, I definately recommend it as well. 

/johnny


----------



## Femerus the Gnecro (Dec 16, 2003)

pezagent said:
			
		

> I forgot there's a lot of people in here that have "trouble" with Anime. Sometimes Anime is hard to get into, considering the Japanese style of "cartoon expression". The culture is different and the cartoons definately reflect a lot of it. I think a lot of Japanese Anime is heavy on the _escapism_ so a lot isn't dumped in your lap--one just has to go with the flow and stop trying to put it within a Western-culture context.
> 
> However, I believe there are some Anime movies that anyone can enjoy--my favorite all-time Anime masterpiece is *Ninja Scroll* and if you haven't seen that movie then you're really missing out. On a more light-hearted note, one of the best movies ever made of recent was *Spirited Away* by Hayao Miyazaki. If you haven't seen that yet, I definately recommend it as well.




_Right. On._ 

That summed up my upcoming post nicely... now I don't have to write it 

-F


----------



## takyris (Dec 16, 2003)

I liked *Spirited Away*.  I thought *Ninja Scroll* was stupid -- the usual power fantasy garbage wth a tacked-on anime-fantasy messed-up romance to boot.  And I apologize for being so dull and foolish that I like Tarantino's dialogue, but really, people who tell me what to go watch in order to improve myself make my teeth hurt.  Possibly, I've watched other movies.  Possibly, after watching them, I still liked the other stuff.

I didn't say that I loved Tarantino.  I said that I enjoyed some of his dialogue.  If he stole it, he stole well.  If you don't like it, that's your right -- and is, indeed, the point of this thread.  But claiming that everything we like, you're above, and everything we dislike is above us is... well... not an enlightened way to go about your business.  I might just as well say, "Many people who like anime don't understand what a sexist, creepy power fantasy it really is.  It requires a deeper watch to truly understand the depth to which this genre generally caters to repressed young men with confidence issues."

I do say *generally*.  As I said, I liked *Spirited Away* and thought that *Mononoke* had its moments.  I'm willing to try stuff.  I'm also willing to call a spade a spade.


----------



## Dark Jezter (Dec 16, 2003)

takyris said:
			
		

> "Many people who like anime don't understand what a sexist, creepy power fantasy it really is.  It requires a deeper watch to truly understand the depth to which this genre generally caters to repressed young men with confidence issues."


----------



## Mercule (Dec 16, 2003)

Let's see. I don't like "reality" TV. And I _do_ like game theory. Heck, my degree is in Political Science.

Anime. Dittos to what Joshua said.

Slapstick -- including most Jim Carey (I liked _The Mask_), Adam Sandler, Will Farrell (man, is that guy a hack), etc. I really don't laugh at these. You can throw Bean in here, too, but I like Monty Python.

The Weather Channel. I have known several people who let it play in the background all day long. How many times can someone possibly hear about the weather?

War movies. Oh, sure, _Starship Troopers_ was fun, but I'm talking about Civil War/WWII/Vietnam. I just don't understand.

Hardcore porn. I like seeing pretty ladies in lingerie (or not ) as much as the next guy. I just don't see what the appeal of gaping at someone else having intercourse for two hours really is.

Edit:  A specific flick that I just don't get is Armageddon.  I've got friends that love this thing and consider it a "must own".  It almost hurts me physically to watch it.

Oh, and anything with Kevin Costner in it.  That man is worthless as an actor.  People keep telling me that I have to see Field of Dreams.  Considering that I like/understand baseball about as much as I do anime, I don't see that one in my future when you throw in Costner for giggles.


----------



## pezagent (Dec 16, 2003)

takyris said:
			
		

> I thought *Ninja Scroll* was stupid -- the usual power fantasy garbage wth a tacked-on anime-fantasy messed-up romance to boot.




I'm not sure what the "usual power fantasy garbage" means. :huh?:
That's a very subjective statement, you could be talking about anything. The "tacked-on anime-fantasy messed-up romance" thing is also rather vague... do messed-up romances only happen in Anime movies? Could you be more specific about how they are "tacked-on"? Seriously, I'm not catching your drift.

Ninja Scroll is a *great* movie, and I would recommend it to anyone. It certainly isn't "stupid." 



> And I apologize for being so dull and foolish that I like Tarantino's dialogue, but really, people who tell me what to go watch in order to improve myself make my teeth hurt.




Perhaps a trip to the dentist may be in order--or this could be a nervous condition you may want to look into. Is there any family medical history of spontaneous toothache suppression?

You don't have to apologize for being yourself, either. 



> I didn't say that I loved Tarantino.  I said that I enjoyed some of his dialogue.  If he stole it, he stole well.  If you don't like it, that's your right -- and is, indeed, the point of this thread.  But claiming that everything we like, you're above, and everything we dislike is above us is... well... not an enlightened way to go about your business.




Wait, you're telling me it's okay to voice my opinion. My opinion may be that your opinion sucks. Can you deal with that?



> I might just as well say, "Many people who like anime don't understand what a sexist, creepy power fantasy it really is.  It requires a deeper watch to truly understand the depth to which this genre generally caters to repressed young men with confidence issues."




You could say that. Oh wait, you did say that. Well, if that's what you believe, then okay. (It might not require a _"deeper watch"_ but it may require a _"better education"_.)

Japanese culture, in many ways, can be considered "sexist". That anime reflects this culture is part of it's personality. It's no more sexist than _Baywatch_ or _Beverly Hills 90210_ or _Maxum_ magazine. There is Anime for boys, there is Anime for girls. I know some girls who have just as many "anime fantasies" as boys might. It's not a big deal. 

How this relates to Tarantino's dialog escapes me. It still sucks.


----------



## pezagent (Dec 16, 2003)

Mercule said:
			
		

> Let's see. I don't like "reality" TV. And I _do_ like game theory. Heck, my degree is in Political Science.




The fact that you have a Poly-Sci degree and don't like reality makes perfect sense... oh wait, you don't like reality _television_... sorry, my bad...

/johnny


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## Storm Raven (Dec 16, 2003)

Mercule said:
			
		

> *Let's see. I don't like "reality" TV. And I _do_ like game theory. Heck, my degree is in Political Science.*





_Survivor_ is just about the only reality TV show where it comes into play because of the voting structure of the game. Most of the rest don't have this element, many of them don't even have voting elements to the game (and hence, hold little interest for me).

The unique aspect of _Survivor_ is that the decisions are made by secret ballot by the players themselves based upon incomplete information (no audience voting, no extra information, and so on). Hence, it is an excellent means of observing a variation of the Prisoner's Dilemma played out by a variety of personality types.


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## theburningman (Dec 16, 2003)

> Characters in Tarantino's films aren't characters--they're puppets. No soul, no depth, no drama, just surface-level BS. John Hughes was writing this stuff long before Tarantino came along. Only he kept Sixteen Candles rated PG. Replace Ringwald with Thurman and you've got Sixteen Candles 2: Pulp Fiction.




I like John Hughes movies as much as anyone, but . . . huh?


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## takyris (Dec 16, 2003)

pezagent said:
			
		

> I'm not sure what the "usual power fantasy garbage" means. :huh?:
> That's a very subjective statement, you could be talking about anything. The "tacked-on anime-fantasy messed-up romance" thing is also rather vague... do messed-up romances only happen in Anime movies? Could you be more specific about how they are "tacked-on"? Seriously, I'm not catching your drift.
> 
> Ninja Scroll is a *great* movie, and I would recommend it to anyone. It certainly isn't "stupid."




Well, my big point in relation to your post was that this is primarily a thread for posting your opinions.  Your opinions were posted using language indicative of statements of fact, not opinion, with veiled commentary implying that anyone who feels differently is less informed.

As for the usual power fantasy garbage, I'm going to stand by it (although tacked-on is probably overdoing it -- I stand by their romances generally being messed up situations that are wish fulfillment for geeks, but the power fantasy "All the hot girls like this guy, but he never realizes it" element is integral to the story, so it isn't tacked on, so consider that rescinded).  Granted, the entire genre is not that bad, but in my opinion, large elements of it are -- and most of the anime-lovers I know do not differentiate between the "geek harem" stuff and the good stuff.  

Sure, the same can be said for almost any other genre, but in most other genres, the fans differentiate between the good stuff and the bad stuff.  I mean, fantasy-movie geeks will, on average, consider LotR good, D&D movie bad, and Krull campy, regardless of whether or not they personally like either of the above (I love Krull, acknowledging the goofball factor, and love to razz the D&D movie).

Perhaps we're thinking about different ninja scrolls.  Poisoned chick, sword on a little wire, and something involving exploding corpses?  I recall it being pretty, but ultimately mired in the usual brooding hero anime cliches and not interesting enough fight-wise to pull me in -- a movie that is pretty but stupid .  That is, of course, only my opinion.  And you are welcome to yours.  But telling me that my opinion is the result of a lack of education or deep thought on my part is somewhat disingenuous.


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## buzzard (Dec 16, 2003)

takyris said:
			
		

> But telling me that my opinion is the result of a lack of education or deep thought on my part is somewhat disingenuous.




I don't believe dinsingenious is the correct word. Obnoxious is. 

Based on the man's tirade I will probably avoid watching Ninja Scroll (not that I watch much anime in any case) since I have now attached negative value to his opinion. 

buzzard


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## pezagent (Dec 16, 2003)

theburningman said:
			
		

> I like John Hughes movies as much as anyone, but . . . huh?




*John Hughes vs. Quentin Tarantino*


*From Sixteen Candles:*

GEEK: How’s it going? 

SAM: How’s what going? 

GEEK: You know, things, life, whatnot. 

SAM: Life is not whatnot, and it’s none of your business. 

GEEK: So you going to the dance tonight? 

SAM: That’s also none of your business. 

GEEK: (laughs) Are you inhibited about dancing in public? You don’t have to dance. You could just stand there with me and my dudes, and just be you. 

SAM: Sounds major.

GEEK: So what’s the story, you got a guy or what? 

SAM: Yes, three big ones and they lust wimp blood, so quit bugging me or I’ll sick them all over your weenie ass.

GEEK: You know I’m getting input here that I’m reading is relatively hostile. I mean I just…

SAM: Go to hell. 

GEEK: Very hostile. Come on, what’s the problem here, I’m a boy, you’re a girl…is there something wrong with my trying to put together some kind of relationship between us. 

_The bus begins to slow down and Sam gets her stuff together to get off but he won’t let her._

GEEK: Okay look, I know you have to go, just answer me one question. 

SAM: Yes, you’re a total fag. 

GEEK: (laughs) That wasn’t the question. (pause) Am I turning you on? 

_Sam rolls her eyes and gets up and off the bus. The Geek leans back and talks to the girl in the neck brace._ 

GEEK: It’s encouraging, very encouraging. 

GIRL: Uh-huh. 

GEEK: You know a girl with a hat is just…whoa…vogue. 

GIRL: Uh…yeah. 

*From Pulp-Fiction:*

_Buddy comes back with the drinks.  Mia wraps her lips around the straw of her shake._

MIA: Yummy!

VINCENT: Can I have a sip of that?  I'd like to know what a five-dollar shake tastes like.

MIA: Be my guest. _She slides the shake over to him._

MIA: You can use my straw, I don't have kooties.

_Vincent smiles._

VINCENT: Yeah, but maybe I do.

MIA:Kooties I can handle.

_He takes a sip._

VINCENT: Goddamn!  That's a pretty f6ckin' good milk shake.

MIA: Told ya.

VINCENT: I don't know if it's worth five dollars, but it's pretty f6ckin' good.

_He slides the shake back. Then the first of an uncomfortable silence happens._

MIA: Don't you hate that?

VINCENT: What?

MIA: Uncomfortable silences.  Why do we feel it's necessary to yak about bullsh6t in order to be comfortable?

VINCENT: I don't know.

MIA: That's when you know you found somebody special.  When you can just shut the f6ck up for a minute, and comfortably share silence.

VINCENT: I don't think we're there yet.  But don't feel bad, we just met each other.

MIA: Well I'll tell you what, I'll go to the bathroom and powder my nose, while you sit here and think of something to say.

VINCENT: I'll do that.

--------

Maybe if the characters in Pulp Fiction were actually _doing_ something (as Aristotle said, action is character) then all this dialog treatment would be great. But for me it's always like watching people read scripts from a scenewriting class. Pulp Fiction is like a bad play--and that's why I suggested perhaps reading some _good_ plays if one found this sort of dialog treatment interesting. I suggested John Guare's _House of Blue Leaves_ as it treats contemporary dialog with wit and charm. It doesn't butcher it or paint it over the character's face. It subtly _reveals_ the character inside--even though it is all rather absurd, rather than hiding the characters behind paper-mache masks as Tarantino's work does. His characters are pre-teens smoking because they think it makes them look cool. Hughes characters _are_ teenagers trying to look cool. There's the only difference.

Tarantino's crap could be just as interesting if the lead roles were replaced by parrots or even better--sock puppets. (The only scene worth watching in PF is the one with Christopher Walken) Pulp Fiction will never be added to my collection of DVDs--his movies are very _empty_. One could usually find the same conversations in the mens room at the now defunct _Twilo_ of New York or any trendy restaurant with Eurotrash present. The only movie I actually enjoyed of his was _True Romance_ and that's because it had Patricia Arquette in it and it was directed by Tony Scott.

/johnny


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## pezagent (Dec 16, 2003)

buzzard said:
			
		

> I don't believe dinsingenious is the correct word. Obnoxious is.
> 
> Based on the man's tirade I will probably avoid watching Ninja Scroll (not that I watch much anime in any case) since I have now attached negative value to his opinion.
> 
> buzzard




I find that people who indirectly refer to people _(the man)_ and publicly announce their resentment are not only _obnoxious_ but emotionally _abusive_. I feel very violated when people do this, and I don't like it. And when people do act this way, I will confront them. 

I think you're a jerk for posting this. Nobody asked you to involve yourself in this conversation. A tirade? Please. Within the realm of the internet, a mild flame, geared towards an entire post that was based on the assumption I was making a personal attack via association. In this case, the original poster took offense becuase I can't stand Tarantino's work. Is that my problem? No. Do you have a problem with other people's opinions? It seems so. Welcome to the world of human interaction and debate. My opinons belong to me. Your spite, resentment, or child-like actions of public-humility won't change them. We might as well resort to this:

"Lisa doesn't eat meat! Lisa, are you going to marry a carrot?"
(sarcastically) "Yes, I'm going to marry a carrot."
"See! She admitted it! Lisa's going to marry a carrot!"

I've heard that resentment is like you taking poison and waiting for me to die. What do you think?

/johnny


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## TiQuinn (Dec 16, 2003)

pezagent said:
			
		

> The only movie I actually enjoyed of his was _True Romance_ and that's because it had Patricia Arquette in it and it was directed by Tony Scott.




Now THAT'S funny!  Quentin Tarantino is empty but Tony Scott...well, now you're talking classic filmmaking! ;-)


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## buzzard (Dec 16, 2003)

pezagent said:
			
		

> I find that people who indirectly refer to people _(the man)_ and publicly announce their resentment are not only _obnoxious_ but emotionally _abusive_. I feel very violated when people do this, and I don't like it. And when people do act this way, I will confront them.




Umm. "Waah". Ok your high and mighty opinions got called and now you're upset. Get over it. I didn't think you were worth the effort of looking up your name. You are confirming my assessment. 



			
				pezagent said:
			
		

> I think you're a jerk for posting this. Nobody asked you to involve yourself in this conversation. A tirade? Please. Within the realm of the internet, a mild flame, geared towards an entire post that was based on the assumption I was making a personal attack via association. In this case, the original poster took offense becuase I can't stand Tarantino's work. Is that my problem? No. Do you have a problem with other people's opinions? It seems so. Welcome to the world of human interaction and debate. My opinons belong to me.



<some amount of drivel deleted for brevity>

There are a number fallacious claims here worth addressing. 
A) This was not a conversation, but a message board. Your rants were for public consumption. Thus, everyone is allowed to play. Just because you want to pick up your marbles and go home doesn't mean you get to set the rules. 

B) Tirade is well described when you explain that people's opinions are worthless because they are insufficiently educated to have ones which match yours. Feh. I'll stack my pile of degrees against yours and play bigger wee wee anytime. 

C) Don't try to duck making personal attacks. If you are incapable of reading your own posts I'll hunt up the details. let's try:

"Wait, you're telling me it's okay to voice my opinion. My opinion may be that your opinion sucks. Can you deal with that?"

or 
"You could say that. Oh wait, you did say that. Well, if that's what you believe, then okay. (It might not require a "deeper watch" but it may require a "better education".)"

An objective analysis says those are obnoxious statements. Live with it. Personally I find Tarantino peurile myself, but that does not justify the rubbish you have been posting. 

I don't have a problem with opinions. I have a problem with people who don't know how to express them in a civil fashion. That would be you by the way Sparky. 

buzzard


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## takyris (Dec 16, 2003)

Pezagent, random question: What do you think of Aaron Sorkin?  Do you like his dialogue, or do you find it overblown and stupid?  Some people loathe it.  I like it.  I wonder if it's just a style difference between us, that you dislike dialogue for its own sake, while I don't have a problem with it.  Given the way I write, I'm not surprised to note that I am happy to hear good dialogue, even if it doesn't advance the plot.  Aristotle is welcome to his opinion, but I didn't agree with all of his assertions about ethics, so I'm quite sure that I don't care what he thinks of my movie-watching choices. 

And I wasn't offended that you didn't like Tarantino, just like I hope you're not offended that I don't like anime in general.  I was irked, although not offended, because of your implication that you were a better or more educated person because of your opinions.


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## tetsujin28 (Dec 16, 2003)

Cthulhu's Librarian said:
			
		

> Your going to have to talk to payroll about that. MmmmmKK?



Mmmmm.Yeah. Mmmm. We're going to have to move your desk again.


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## pezagent (Dec 16, 2003)

takyris said:
			
		

> Well, my big point in relation to your post was that this is primarily a thread for posting your opinions.  Your opinions were posted using language indicative of statements of fact, not opinion, with veiled commentary implying that anyone who feels differently is less informed.




That's your interpretation. Perhaps if you asked for clarification before jumping to conclusions we wouldn't be having this next generation conversation. I'm not responsible for your interpretation of my opinions. That's why people ask questions.



> As for the usual power fantasy garbage, I'm going to stand by it (although tacked-on is probably overdoing it -- I stand by their romances generally being messed up situations that are wish fulfillment for geeks, but the power fantasy "All the hot girls like this guy, but he never realizes it" element is integral to the story, so it isn't tacked on, so consider that rescinded).




Well that's fine, but I seriously don't understand what you're talking about. That's why I'm asking you what you're talking about. I don't know what a "messed up" situation is. I also don't understand the "wish fulfillment for geeks power fantasy" stuff. Could you be more specific by citing actual movies? This might help the conversation.



> Granted, the entire genre is not that bad, but in my opinion, large elements of it are -- and most of the anime-lovers I know do not differentiate between the "geek harem" stuff and the good stuff.




So you're going to stereotype people by assuming that all anime fans don't know the good stuff from the sex anime? So if the only Native American you knew murdered your best friend then all Native Americans are murderers as well? This is _all or nothing_ thinking. The world isn't black and white, good or bad. Just because one Anime movie has half-naked chicks running around in bikinis all the time doesn't mean they _all_ do. *Lain* is a great example of very thoughtful and deep sci-fi Anime.



> Sure, the same can be said for almost any other genre, but in most other genres, the fans differentiate between the good stuff and the bad stuff.




Do they? I think you're generalizing. There's no proof to suggest fans of one genre are different than fans of another. This is absurd. You're trying to prove your point within a limited personal opinion. (I'm not saying that _you're_ limited, I'm saying that all opinions are limited unless specifically attempting to be objective. Even in marketing practices surveys are often biased when they imply they are objective.)



> I mean, fantasy-movie geeks will, on average, consider LotR good, D&D movie bad, and Krull campy, regardless of whether or not they personally like either of the above (I love Krull, acknowledging the goofball factor, and love to razz the D&D movie).




I was wondering when somebody was going to bring up Krull. But once again you're stating personal opinion, which I can probably trust because I think you're a fantasy-movie goer. So why wouldn't you trust an Anime fan?



> Perhaps we're thinking about different ninja scrolls.  Poisoned chick, sword on a little wire, and something involving exploding corpses?  I recall it being pretty, but ultimately mired in the usual brooding hero anime cliches and not interesting enough fight-wise to pull me in -- a movie that is pretty but stupid .




Yes, we're talking about the same movie. That you found it stupid may reflect your own personality, not mine. Most people I know and enjoy spending time with find it to be one of the best Anime movies ever made. Even Roger Ebert liked it. (?) In regards to the "hero anime cliché"--what other sorts of hero's do you know of? Have you read Joseph's Campbell's _Hero of 1,000 faces?_ There is ultimately only one type of hero that takes many types of journeys at different times in life. You seem to be implying that anime hero's are different than other types of heros. Is this so? It's not true. A hero is a hero is a hero. One learns in the early stages of one's writing career that _all great stories have already been told._ It's only by rejuxtaposition that hopefully people find _new meaning_ in stories. That's all there is to it. And Ninja Scroll tells a very common tale of a hero's journey, and it does it beautifully. It's a real joy to watch. I think you are jaded for some reason. Maybe you had a bad experience, ate some bad Japanese food or something...???




> That is, of course, only my opinion.  And you are welcome to yours.  But telling me that my opinion is the result of a lack of education or deep thought on my part is somewhat disingenuous.




I never said that your opinion is the result of a lack of education, did I? Or was that your interpretation of what I posted?

/johnny


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## pezagent (Dec 16, 2003)

buzzard said:
			
		

> Umm. <edited for television>




Once again, you're stepping over the boundaries that I've already set up with you. I told you that when people get abusive with me I'll confront them. I think you're an abusive jerk and I don't like you at all. I would say this to your face without hesitation. So please don't be offended if I don't speak to you anymore for the duration of my lifetime. I don't want people like you in my life.


/johnny


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## Eridanis (Dec 16, 2003)

pezagent said:
			
		

> I would say this to your face without hesitation.




Then please take it to private email. This is no place for name-calling.


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## pezagent (Dec 16, 2003)

TiQuinn said:
			
		

> Now THAT'S funny!  Quentin Tarantino is empty but Tony Scott...well, now you're talking classic filmmaking! ;-)




lol, that made me laugh... what I meant was that it wasn't directed by QT... I'm not a big TS fan although I enjoy RS obviously... 

I still like PA...

/johnny


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## buzzard (Dec 16, 2003)

pezagent said:
			
		

> Once again, you're stepping over the boundaries that I've already set up with you. I told you that when people get abusive with me I'll confront them. I think you're an abusive jerk and I don't like you at all. I would say this to your face without hesitation. So please don't be offended if I don't speak to you anymore for the duration of my lifetime. I don't want people like you in my life.




Boy, I'm gonna cry myself to sleep now. Sniff, sniff. 

buzzard


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## takyris (Dec 16, 2003)

pezagent said:
			
		

> That's your interpretation. Perhaps if you asked for clarification before jumping to conclusions we wouldn't be having this next generation conversation. I'm not responsible for your interpretation of my opinions. That's why people ask questions.




Perhaps if you used some of that crisp, clean dialogue training you've gotten from reading all the great works, misinterpretation would not have been an issue.



> Well that's fine, but I seriously don't understand what you're talking about. That's why I'm asking you what you're talking about. I don't know what a "messed up" situation is. I also don't understand the "wish fulfillment for geeks power fantasy" stuff. Could you be more specific by citing actual movies? This might help the conversation.




Hm.  Lessee...

The hero who everybody hangs onto despite the fact that he's a brooding, rude, borderline antisocial person.  I dislike it in American Badass Cinema as well, for the record, since yes, there are a fair number of rude, antisocial jerks among the "heroes" of American cinema.

The cliche of the clueless geek surrounded by hot magical chicks who love him, but they can't tell him, and he never figures it out.  You're honestly telling me that you've never seen this in any anime?  That's the power fantasy wish fulfillment garbage to which I am referring.  Or, possibly, "gangly teenage kid gets a combat-suit and then blows up eight buildings and a bunch of enemy tanks".

You dislike dialogue that doesn't advance the plot.  I dislike long periods of watching a hero brood on a cliff overlooking a valley, or on the edge of a cave, or at the edge of the fire.  The female interest almost always goes out to check on him to find out why he's so driven and commited and what secret pain lurks i his heart and so on and so forth.  Reverse the genders, and you've got the ice queen who is iron-willed and will never admit that she loves the ordiary joe, until the end of the movie, where she sacrifices herself for him (or, optionally, stands over his dying body and admits that she loves him just a little too late).  This whole "Our relationship consists of denial of the relationship" cliche doesn't do it for me at all.  I've enjoyed it once or twice -- Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon had beautiful acting that conveyed it well enough to make it seem plausible.  But in general, boring and annoying.

(Please note: Not a value judgment on anime.  Now that I've stated that explicitly, I realize that it ties into my personal likes and dislikes.  As a writer, I always throw setting in at the end.  Ergo, scenes that are designed to emphasize setting while not advancing anything else really don't do it for me on film.  Similarly, pretty effects don't do it for me -- I wait for the DVD and watch stuff on my TV, because effects generally don't impress me -- and one of the attractions of anime, I have heard, is the beautiful art and effects, which, for me, are nothing more than vehicles for dialogue and plot and character.)



> So you're going to stereotype people by assuming that all anime fans don't know the good stuff from the sex anime?




Not necessarily from sex anime, but from bad anime... yes.  Yes, I am.  At least, by my standards.  People who self-describe as anime fans are likely to have entertainment values that are way out of whack with regards to mine.  That's not to say that they're bad people, but yeah.  If you describe yourself as an anime fan, chances are that you prioritize elements in your enetertainment experiences that are different enough from mine that it's unlikely you'll be able to really point me in the direction of stuff I like -- or that you'll agree with me as to which stuff is good and which stuff is bad.

This comes from somebody who liked "Spirited Away" and "Mononoke" and plans to watch the one by the same guy that has the dirigibles in it.  I also liked the first few episodes of "Ranma", because I found it funny -- although the later stuff didn't impress me.

Note: Will check out "Lain".



> Do they? I think you're generalizing. There's no proof to suggest fans of one genre are different than fans of another.




Well, yeah.  I'm not writing my Master's Thesis.  I'm writing a post on a messageboard in a thread dedicated to talking about stuff we don't like.  Of course I'm generalizing.  Welcome to the Internet.

But now that you bring it up, I'm not sure that I *would* trust someone who described himself as a fantasy-movie lover to tell me what was good and what was bad, if I weren't a fantasy-movie lover myself.  There are movies that appeal to both fans and non-fans (ie, LotR, which has gained even non-fan appeal), and there are movies that are really only for fans of the genre (like the D&D movie).

If someone who wasn't an action-movie fan asked me what was good and what was bad, I think my answers would be radically skewed.  Actually, I KNOW they'd be skewed, however much I tried to account for it.  As a fight-scene snob, I love some atrocious movies because they have good fight scenes, and loathe some not-bad action movies because their fight scenes were lame.  (Blade 2... wretched, awful, laughably bad fight scenes)



> Yes, we're talking about the same movie. That you found it stupid may reflect your own personality, not mine. Most people I know and enjoy spending time with find it to be one of the best Anime movies ever made.




That most people you know and enjoy spending time with feel that way may reflect your choice of friends, not mine.  



> In regards to the "hero anime cliché"--what other sorts of hero's do you know of?




Well, there's this wacky concept I call "Character Development".  Campbell's discussion of archetypes is a good starting point for the traits by which a character's deepest goals can be established, and by which a good writer can frame out the general path that they're going to take -- but I don't recall Campbell saying anything about you needing nothing more than that archetype.  If all you have is the archetype, you don't have an archetype -- you have a stereotype.  And I found Ninja Scroll to be your stereotypical anime-fantasy-badass story.

And yes, familiar with Campbell, thanks.  Please, tell me to read more stuff.  I always love that.  I don't generally give out reading assignments in my posts, because I find it somewhat high-handed, but hey, go pick up Joyce's "Ulysses" or "Henry IV, Part I" or "The Red Violin" -- not because they relate to the topic, but because I've read or watched them all and want to show the world how smart I am.



> It's a real joy to watch. I think you are jaded for some reason. Maybe you had a bad experience, ate some bad Japanese food or something...???




It's a real joy to watch... for you.  Have you read the title of this thread?

And my bad experiences were actually along the lines of anime fans telling me that I had to watch this, it was the best thing ever, and then, when I watched it and didn't like it, it was because I wasn't intelligent enough to understand it.

Which is, really, a bit like what you're doing.

The only reason the anime discussion is continuing is because it really seems to have you worked up.  Up until now, most of the discussion was along the lines of "I hate this..", "Oh, you hate it, I like it, but yeah, not everybody does".



> I never said that your opinion is the result of a lack of education, did I? Or was that your interpretation of what I posted?




Well, given that we all observe the world from behind our own eyeballs, it is, of course, my interpretation rather than an indisputable objective reality.  But I'm not the only one.  Didn't someone back there quote you and your greater education line?


----------



## Cthulhu's Librarian (Dec 16, 2003)

tetsujin28 said:
			
		

> Mmmmm.Yeah. Mmmm. We're going to have to move your desk again.



But they switched from the Swingline to the Boston stapler, but I kept my Swingline stapler because it didn't bind up as much. And I kept my staples for the Swingline stapler... No, it's not ok because if they make me... if they take my stapler...I'll have to set the building on fire.


----------



## takyris (Dec 16, 2003)

Random side-note: Loved "Office Space", mostly because I started working at a dot-com that month and we went as a group as a Friday movie-day thing.  The door with the static-charge... That WAS my office.


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## barsoomcore (Dec 16, 2003)

_Ninja Scroll_ sucks. This is by the same guy who gave us _Vampire Hunter: D_, which also sucks.

Sucks rocks. Crap writing, crap design, crap animation. Do NOT watch these movies because you will hate yourself in the morning.

_Lain_ is interesting -- long and dull, but interesting. Er.


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## takyris (Dec 16, 2003)

Is Vampire Hunter-D the one with the teenaged girl getting attacked by ribbons or tentacles or something in the pool and blowing them all up and coming out of the pool nekkid, and having some old woman tell her that she can't have any sex until after she's defeated the ultimate evil?  With golf clubs being swung, too?

Or was that a demon hunter instead of a demon hunter?


----------



## barsoomcore (Dec 16, 2003)

Yeah, you got it. It's that anime, you know, with the nekkid girl? You know, and the rape scene? THAT one?



Just to give you a hint of how lame _Ninja Scroll_, the very first scene in the movie -- our hero walks across a bridge, chewing on a rice ball. Bad guys attack, and he tosses the rice ball into the air.

Guess, I mean just GUESS what happens before the rice ball comes back down. No, go on, you'll never get it.

Gee, never seen THAT before.


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## Corinth (Dec 16, 2003)

takyris said:
			
		

> Is Vampire Hunter-D the one with the teenaged girl getting attacked by ribbons or tentacles or something in the pool and blowing them all up and coming out of the pool nekkid, and having some old woman tell her that she can't have any sex until after she's defeated the ultimate evil?  With golf clubs being swung, too?
> 
> Or was that a demon hunter instead of a demon hunter?



_Vampire Hunter D_ is a male half-vampire, properly called "dhampir" but often called "dunpeal" for some reason or another, and he specializes in the hunting and execution of true vampires.

There are two movies featuring this character.  IMDB entries for each are found at http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0090248/ (for the 1985 feature, released in the U.S. in 1993) and at http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0216651/ (for the far better 2000 release).  They aren't connected; both are stand-alone stories.


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## Dinkeldog (Dec 16, 2003)

barsoomcore said:
			
		

> _Ninja Scroll_ sucks. This is by the same guy who gave us _Vampire Hunter: D_, which also sucks.




Oddly enough, I like both of those.      Guess our tastes differ.  Funny how people can like different things, isn't it?


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## barsoomcore (Dec 16, 2003)

That it is. That it is.

Betcha you hated the D&D movie, right?

See?


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Dec 16, 2003)

Funny...a lot of the reasons given against cliches in Anime could easily be used for ANY genre...lets say..ohhh...D&D. 

Another hater of Ninja Scroll here. Not my thing...I'm more of a mecha fan. Mobile Suit Gundam, Zeta, and Gundam 0080 are wonderful stories that STARTED cliches.


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## Villano (Dec 16, 2003)

takyris said:
			
		

> I might just as well say, "Many people who like anime don't understand what a sexist, creepy power fantasy it really is.  It requires a deeper watch to truly understand the depth to which this genre generally caters to repressed young men with confidence issues."




Wow, I have to start watching Hamtaro.   

I've always felt it was silly when people make blanket statements about how they don't like "anime".   Anime is just cartoons from Japan.  There are a million genres within it.  It's like saying, "I hate Asian movies because they're all about kung-fu fighting."

And you realize that you're stereotyping anime fans...on a D&D website.  No stereotypes attached to that hobby.  No, sir. 

EDIT: Ankh-Morpork Guard beat me to that last point on his post.  Damn, him!


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## takyris (Dec 16, 2003)

Yeah, we addressed that earlier on this page, I believe.

I retracted part of that statement -- and it WAS phrased in the conditional as a response, rather than as an active statement.

You guys DID read the whole thread before responding, right?  The part where I also mentioned the few anime movies I had liked?

That said, generally speaking, as a rule of thumb, I have personally, in my own experience, which does not have to be representative of the entire world, found that if you tell a D&D player that he's doing something geeky, he says, "Hey, it's fun, I like it."  If you tell an anime-watcher that he's doing something geeky, he tells you that you're not intelligent enough to appreciate the purity of the form.  The D&D player is not defending anything except his right to enjoy whatever he likes.  The anime-watcher is making an attack, or, in this example, a counterattack.  Now a counterattack to a personal attack is fine, but a counterattack to somebody saying "I don't like anime" is not.

I don't generally start fights with people who like things that I don't like, because, really, what's the point?  I'm not going to start liking something if you argue with me enough, and I'm not going to convince you to start liking something by browbeating you.

I said I didn't like most anime.  The topic of the thread was about not liking stuff.  That's the whole point of this thread.  Other people were disagreeing politely under the "different people, different tastes" rule, and then Pezdude responded by implying that if I were more intelligent or sophisticated or educated, I might learn to appreciate anime.  This mysteriously failed to convert me to a state of love and respect for anime, and, in fact, served to reinforce the stereotype that I have about anime-loving-folks. 

Should I let Pezdude respond and *then* post "Done with Thread", or should I just say that now?


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## Pseudonym (Dec 16, 2003)

takyris said:
			
		

> Random side-note: Loved "Office Space", mostly because I started working at a dot-com that month and we went as a group as a Friday movie-day thing. The door with the static-charge... That WAS my office.



Our QC officer has a red swingline stapler, and we joke about it all the time.

My lab seems to have this inordinate obsession with having cake, for any conceivable occasion. Every time I find myself passing plates of cake down a line of people there, I and several others break out laughing.


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## Mercule (Dec 16, 2003)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> [/b]
> 
> _Survivor_ is just about the only reality TV show where it comes into play because of the voting structure of the game. Most of the rest don't have this element, many of them don't even have voting elements to the game (and hence, hold little interest for me).



I'll agree that Survivor is more interesting than the other "reality" shows.  It's just that saying so is a bit like saying that being crushing your big toe with a mallet is more comfortable than removing it, to the foot, with a cheese grater.


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## Fast Learner (Dec 16, 2003)

_Pulp Fiction_ is almost exclusively style for style's sake. If you dig just absorbing the style elements (as I do) then you'll dig the movie. If you're looking for some kind of deeply original characterization or a unique plot then you won't.

_Pulp Fiction_ is enjoyable to those who like it simply because of the clothes, the language, the delivery, and the editing style. Just how the movie "feels." 

Tarantino is not unlike Mamet in that respect. If you like super-clipped dialogue (which Rebecca Pidgeon, for example, is a pro at delivering), dialogue that often not only doesn't move the plot together nor provide any characterization but in fact often is there to just provide the right number of "beats" in the scene, then you'll dig his films. If you don't then it doesn't matter how good the plot or characters are, the delivery style will drive you nutty.

Fortunately, as in all art, there's no objective criteria that can be applied to determine its worth. Respected subjective criteria, sure, but it holds no real weight in the end.


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## Villano (Dec 17, 2003)

takyris said:
			
		

> Yeah, we addressed that earlier on this page, I believe.
> 
> I retracted part of that statement -- and it WAS phrased in the conditional as a response, rather than as an active statement.
> 
> You guys DID read the whole thread before responding, right?  The part where I also mentioned the few anime movies I had liked?




Yes, and I was merely pointing out that anime isn't a genre.  It ranges from tentacle-raping porn (add that to the list of things I don't get) to children's cartoons.  There isn't a certain type of anime fan.



> That said, generally speaking, as a rule of thumb, I have personally, in my own experience, which does not have to be representative of the entire world, found that if you tell a D&D player that he's doing something geeky, he says, "Hey, it's fun, I like it."  If you tell an anime-watcher that he's doing something geeky, he tells you that you're not intelligent enough to appreciate the purity of the form.  The D&D player is not defending anything except his right to enjoy whatever he likes.  The anime-watcher is making an attack, or, in this example, a counterattack.  Now a counterattack to a personal attack is fine, but a counterattack to somebody saying "I don't like anime" is not.
> 
> I said I didn't like most anime.  The topic of the thread was about not liking stuff.  That's the whole point of this thread.




I have no problem even if you don't like any anime whatsoever.  I just objected when it went from "I don't like..." or "I don't understand how anyone could like..." to "_People_ who actually like it are...".


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## Hypersmurf (Dec 17, 2003)

A wise man once spoke on the topic of Tolerance.  The line has always remained with me:

"Don't ram your religion down my throat, and I won't ram my fridge down yours."

The sentiment's been expressed a few times on this thread - you're welcome to describe your tastes, and to express bewilderment, but please don't try and force those tastes on others.

The thread has been mostly self-policing so far, but let's make sure we all count to ten before hitting "Send" if we're feeling emotional 

Thanks,
-Hyp.
(Moderator)


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## Dinkeldog (Dec 17, 2003)

barsoomcore said:
			
		

> That it is. That it is.
> 
> Betcha you hated the D&D movie, right?
> 
> See?




Nah.  I took it for what it was.  I've seen worse, and films that first time through I thought were offal (That dragonslayer movie with Peter MacNichol, for example), I've later revised in my mind.  If the D&D movie were on cable, I'd probably catch it a couple more times this month.  

Actually, the one constant I've found in my life is that Rankin & Bass version of "The Return of the King".  That one just suh-hucked (to borrow from (contact)).


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## tetsujin28 (Dec 17, 2003)

Pseudonym said:
			
		

> Our QC officer has a red swingline stapler, and we joke about it all the time.
> 
> My lab seems to have this inordinate obsession with having cake, for any conceivable occasion. Every time I find myself passing plates of cake down a line of people there, I and several others break out laughing.



So here's my question: why don't we have Jennifer Anniston working across the street? Or Nigella?


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## TracerBullet42 (Dec 17, 2003)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> A wise man once spoke on the topic of Tolerance.  The line has always remained with me:
> 
> "Don't ram your religion down my throat, and I won't ram my fridge down yours."
> 
> ...





Here here, Hyp.  This thread WAS fun to read through for a while...everyone needs to relax.

A movie, rather a series,  I just don't get is the Star Wars movies...I've never been all that impressed with them.  I think it may be because I am in that "tweener" age group that was too young when they first came out to enjoy them, and too old to see the new "kiddish" ones as anything enjoyable either...

I just don't get it...


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## Pielorinho (Dec 17, 2003)

Watching taky and pez argue reminds me, inexplicably, of this comic

Not that I'm saying you go around sniffing pus -- kitties, *taky*. 

Daniel


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## Mallus (Dec 17, 2003)

_Trying desperately to reply to the original question and not spin off into anime, Tarrantino, Rebecca Pidgeon speaking super-clipped dialogue, and the sheer, undenialable pornography that is Nigella Lawson licking her fingers..._

Two from the opposite ends of the film spectrum, though united by their ability to annoy me...

1) Todd Solondz's *Happiness*. People who I know and respect swear by this film. I only swore at it. Its is to a mean, biting black comedy what shooting fish in a barrel is to sport. And I liked Neil LaBute's *Your Friends and Neighbors*. Go figure...

2) Michael Bay's *Armageddon*. The film that manages to combine Bruce Willis, Steve Buscemi and and a frickin' giant Earth-smashing meteor into a tedious mess. For me, it was like going to a perfromance of one of my favorite peices of music where every single note the orchestra struck was wrong...

Now Hudson Hawk... that was an entertaining picture.


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## takyris (Dec 17, 2003)

Pielorinho said:
			
		

> Watching taky and pez argue reminds me, inexplicably, of this comic
> 
> Not that I'm saying you go around sniffing pus -- kitties, *taky*.
> 
> Daniel




As long as I'm winning, I'm a happy camper.


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## pezagent (Dec 18, 2003)

barsoomcore said:
			
		

> _Ninja Scroll_ sucks. This is by the same guy who gave us _Vampire Hunter: D_, which also sucks.




*Vampire Hunter D* was created by *Amano*, who had nothing to do with _Ninja Scroll._ Honestly if you're going to bash something get the facts straight. And eat your peas, too--they're good for you.



> Sucks rocks. Crap writing, crap design, crap animation. Do NOT watch these movies because you will hate yourself in the morning.




Great review. I hear the New York Times is hiring. I seriously doubt anyone would hate themselves after watching either, and if they do, I think they've got deeper problems than Anime movies. Eh?



> _Lain_ is interesting -- long and dull, but interesting. Er.





Another insightful review. Thumbs up or down then?

/johnny


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## pezagent (Dec 18, 2003)

takyris said:
			
		

> Perhaps if you used some of that crisp, clean dialogue training you've gotten from reading all the great works, misinterpretation would not have been an issue.




I don't know what you're talking about. Futhermore, you're just being wise. The fact is I never made any direct implication that you were unintelligent because you didn't watch Anime. Since you would like us to believe you _are_ intelligent  for whatever reason, like it matters, then perhaps you could come up with a better phrase for "deeper watch," which is what I was originally poking fun at.



> The hero who everybody hangs onto despite the fact that he's a brooding, rude, borderline antisocial person.  I dislike it in American Badass Cinema as well, for the record, since yes, there are a fair number of rude, antisocial jerks among the "heroes" of American cinema.




I think antisocial jerks walk among us. Especially those who can't call people by their first names. My name is Johnny, yet you like referring to me in third person as "Pezdude." Perhaps you have trouble identifying with these characters because you can relate to them too much. That which you hate in others is what you hate in yourself. Eh?



> The cliche of the clueless geek surrounded by hot magical chicks who love him, but they can't tell him, and he never figures it out.  You're honestly telling me that you've never seen this in any anime?  That's the power fantasy wish fulfillment garbage to which I am referring.  Or, possibly, "gangly teenage kid gets a combat-suit and then blows up eight buildings and a bunch of enemy tanks".




Maybe you're upset because you never get any magical hot chicks flying through your window at night. Here's a tip: leave out more cookies.



> You dislike dialogue that doesn't advance the plot.  I dislike long periods of watching a hero brood on a cliff overlooking a valley, or on the edge of a cave, or at the edge of the fire.  The female interest almost always goes out to check on him to find out why he's so driven and commited and what secret pain lurks i his heart and so on and so forth.  Reverse the genders, and you've got the ice queen who is iron-willed and will never admit that she loves the ordiary joe, until the end of the movie, where she sacrifices herself for him (or, optionally, stands over his dying body and admits that she loves him just a little too late).  This whole "Our relationship consists of denial of the relationship" cliche doesn't do it for me at all.  I've enjoyed it once or twice -- Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon had beautiful acting that conveyed it well enough to make it seem plausible.  But in general, boring and annoying.




I find your posts  to be both boring and annoying as well. They make me wish you _were_ more of a brooding hero on a cliff overlooking the village--then I could just look at you in awe. But since I'm not getting that sort of action here, I guess I'll resort to watching more cool Anime. See how that works?



> and one of the attractions of anime, I have heard,




You have heard? Eh? So wait, you're making judgement calls on a whole genre and you've watched like two movies? Perhaps now I'm being wise. But I'm also bored and trying to entertain myself.



> Not necessarily from sex anime, but from bad anime... yes.  Yes, I am.  At least, by my standards.  People who self-describe as anime fans are likely to have <snip>




Guess what... you're generalizing again. Can you prove this? No. So drop it. Please.



> This comes from somebody who liked "Spirited Away" and "Mononoke" and plans to watch the one by the same guy that has the dirigibles in it.  I also liked the first few episodes of "Ranma", because I found it funny -- although the later stuff didn't impress me.




I'm not really sure what would impress you. I think you spend too much time in your head, not in your heart. I do that sometimes. I didn't like Lord of the Rings because I was being critical of it. When I let go of all my expectations and watched it through the eyes of a child--only then did I really enjoy it. 



> Note: Will check out "Lain".




I will alert the media.



> Well, yeah.  I'm not writing my Master's Thesis.  I'm writing a post on a messageboard in a thread dedicated to talking about stuff we don't like.  Of course I'm generalizing.  Welcome to the Internet.




Are you sure? I mean, about the thesis. I think there's something on a Usenet FAQ about dismissing threads with "Welcome to the Internet." What is that supposed to mean? There's only one way a conversation could be headed after that sort of comment...

Ug. I'm really tired of this discussion. For somebody not writing a thesis you sure talk a lot of crap.

I'm done with this conversation. It started from me to expressing my opinions about Tarantino and it's evolved into a conversation about you. I'd like to point out that not everything is about you.

And my name is Johnny. Maybe you'd have more tolerance for antisocial behavior if you understood your own better. You can start by calling people by their first names.

PS. It's not uncommon for people to recommend, or _share_ ideas with others. If you don't like people sharing with you, I'm sorry, that's not my problem.

I think after reading your posts you may be a writer (?) in search of depth in character. I know from experience you can't get there from the outside in. You may wish to try a different approach.

/johnny


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## Hypersmurf (Dec 18, 2003)

takyris said:
			
		

> "Done with Thread".





			
				pezagent said:
			
		

> I'm done with this conversation.




Thank you, gentlemen.

-Hyp.
(Moderator)


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## takyris (Dec 18, 2003)

Pezagent, one minor note.  You seem offended by the fact that I refer to you as pezdude.  If that has offended you, I apologize.  General etiquette here is to refer to people by their screen names.  While you sign your posts as /johnny, your username is Pezagent, and I refer to you through a nicknamized form of that, Pezdude.  This was not intended as a derogatory term.  I shorten just about everyone's name and stick "dude" or "mon" on the end of it.  A seach of other posts by me in informal conversations should verify this.

If the insult lies in the fact that I altered your name from Pezagent to Pezdude, I sincerely apologize.  If the insult lies in the fact that I referred to you by (an altered version of) your username, then perhaps you should consider changing your username.  Many of us know the real-life names of people on this board, but we generally use each other's usernames unless the person is referring to a real-life event, such as a baby or a death in the family.  An independent and informal survey ought to confirm that referring to a user by his username, rather than his real-life name, is not usually an insult.

EDIT: Smurf-dude, apologies.  Not intended to continue stirring of nest.  *Did* want to clarify that nicknamization of his username was not intended as a slanderous attack.
As for the rest, as I said, I'm done.


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## Hypersmurf (Dec 18, 2003)

takyris said:
			
		

> Smurf-dude, apologies.  Not intended to continue stirring of nest.  *Did* want to clarify that nicknamization of his username was not intended as a slanderous attack.




'scool.

-Hyp.


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## tetsujin28 (Dec 18, 2003)

Mallus said:
			
		

> Now Hudson Hawk... that was an entertaining picture.



Hudson Hawk rules!


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## takyris (Dec 18, 2003)

Ditto receiving guilty pleasure from "Hudson Hawk".


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## aliensex (Dec 18, 2003)

takyris said:
			
		

> Ditto receiving guilty pleasure from "Hudson Hawk".




Ugh!  So many people really enjoyed that?  Now there's something I reeeeaaally don't get!    I thought it was awful myself, oh well  

One movie I don't get is Schindler's List.  Everyone went on and on about how powerful and wonderful and how everyone should see this movie!  Yech!  What boring crap that didn't show me anything new.  I just didn't think it was anything wonderful at all, and I think a lot of people just got caught up in the hype and made themselves believe it was really good.


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## tetsujin28 (Dec 19, 2003)

Schindler's List, Like Saving Private Ryan, was really overhyped.


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## reapersaurus (Dec 19, 2003)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> _Survivor_ isn't about surviving nature. It is about game theory. If you like game theory (like I do), watching it being put into action is fun.



umm, there's no way I can read this and not respond.
As it is, I'm fighting back an urge to scream.

GAME THEORY?!?
How can you actually still think that Survivor is a game?
Because they brainwash you by having the people tell you over and over about how they "strategized" and "outwitted" their competition?

PLEASE.

The producers decide who plays on the show. This more than anything dictates the group dynamic.
Combine this damning fact with the way they arbitrarily throw people back and forth between the tribes (for sheer entertainment/watching value, not for game reasons), and you've got the publically-sanitized version of a "game."

I'm shocked that someone who actually watches the show still has the delusion that it's a game.


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## buzzard (Dec 20, 2003)

tetsujin28 said:
			
		

> Schindler's List, Like Saving Private Ryan, was really overhyped.




I agree about Ryan, disgree vehemently about Schindler. To each their own.  

I never really saw why people love Private Ryan so much. It had a cool scene in the Normandy landing, but it didn't do much for me after that. 

buzzard


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## tetsujin28 (Dec 20, 2003)

Private Ryan has nothing on Kanal or My Name is Ivan.


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