# Town Generator - Final(?) GUI only Beta 0.22



## towngen (Mar 24, 2002)

After much delay from other things at home and at work, I have another beta cut to release.  The first beta version stired up a lot of helpful comments, the second one only a few.  I don't know if this is because interest is waning, or the program is getting better (hopefully the later).

As always, all comments/criticisms are welcome.  Either here or by email to me at towngen@yahoo.com.

Unless someone comes up with some brilliant ideas to make me do something else, I'll going to stop tweaking on the GUI for a while and start making it actually output something.  I can't promise any time frame on this, but I can say that I have A LOT of work to do.

Thanks!

Walter


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## poilbrun (Mar 24, 2002)

Here is what I saw:

Would it be possible to manually input the various percentages for alignment? The system you use is nice (and I like it much), but I'd like to be able to tweak it a little manually...
For the town size, would it be possible to input in the text box manually too? I do not want much, but if I choose a size such as Metropolis (the one I tried), the number is always round. I'd like to have 164321 instead of 164000.
Could there be a link between the power centers and the details of the churches, wizards and mercenary groups present? I had a neutral good wizard power group, it would be cool if the alignment was automatically the same for the details about wizards.
I chose the FRCS pantheon, but on the summary screen, I had two churches of Vecna, and also other gods who are not present in the FR.
Some of these you may know of and will be resolved once you work on the functions themselves. It seems is will be a great program, keep up the good work!


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## MJEggertson (Mar 24, 2002)

Sorry I missed out on the last one. I've been busy.

I think you've hit the nail on the head with this one. I like what you did with the churches and the info file. Us rp geeks really like to tweak, so the more info that's customizeable, the better.

Good job.

-M


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## towngen (Mar 24, 2002)

Thanks for the compliments.

The gods in the FRCS section is just a cut&paste of the standard pantheon because I'm too lazy to type all that stuff in right now.  I'll get around to it one of these days.

Hopefully, I put enough info in the DietyInfo file to let you know how to tweak it.  Right now it doesn't do any checking for validity, so if you don't follow the format, it'll probably crash.  That's one of those "I'll do it before I really release it" things ...  Also there is another thread in this forum about that DietyInfo file you can look at for more info on it.

As for the power center's being properly integrated into the other info, I plan to do that.  The national info will influence what random power centers are created and how wealthy the town is.  Then the power centers need to be reflected in the appropriate other listings if any, etc...

Manual entry for town pop?  I can see it making a difference for a thorp or hamlet, but a metropolis?  It's no big deal to do, it just seems like a pretty minor issue for larger towns.  Will anyone really care or miss the extra 431 people in a town of 160k?  The alignment request seems like it might be more useful of a feature for people who want unusual alignment distributions.  I'll see about these things.

Remember, the output of this program will be a text file (or maybe some other format like rtf).  That way you can edit it after creation and before you print it.

The info that is in the summary screen is really just an example of how the screen will look when done.  That's to get feedback on the user interface for usability purposes.  Obviously a lot more will be going into that TreeView control before it's done.  

Walter


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## Leopold (Mar 24, 2002)

i get a s3 runtime error


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## poilbrun (Mar 24, 2002)

towngen said:
			
		

> *Manual entry for town pop?  I can see it making a difference for a thorp or hamlet, but a metropolis?  It's no big deal to do, it just seems like a pretty minor issue for larger towns.  Will anyone really care or miss the extra 431 people in a town of 160k?  The alignment request seems like it might be more useful of a feature for people who want unusual alignment distributions.  I'll see about these things.*



I didn't know the output format would modifiable, so I thought that the ability to put 431 extra people would be good so that every city doesn't have a round number of inhabitants. But if the user is able to modify the output after generation, don't trouble yourself with such a trivial request, as it was purely an esthetical request and not a "required function"!


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## towngen (Mar 25, 2002)

Leopold said:
			
		

> *i get a s3 runtime error *




I got an email from someone that said they had this error and replied to them.  But for everyones benefit I'll repeat what I put in that email.

Which file did it say was not found?  Do you have the VB runtime dll installed.  It is available from microsoft's website and from download.com.

Did you unzip all 3 files into the same directory?

It's possible that you are missing a neceaary ActiveX control.  Most windows computers will already have the standard controls I am using.  I'm developing the program on Win98.  So if it complains that it is missing a file, email me what file it is missing and I'll try to help you.


As for the town population thing, it's no big deal one way or the other really.  The larger the town, the bigger the difference between 'ticks' on the slider.  In small towns you have a resolution of 1 person per tick, and for big towns it goes up significantly.  I hope I didn't sound irritated in my response.  I really do appreciate all input.  Thanks again for sharing your thoughts!


Does anyone have any problems with screens being confusing or difficult to figure out what to do on each screen?

Do the instructions make sense?  Did anyone even read those?

Is anything confusing or irritating about how it works?

I'm trying to make sure the software ergonomics are reasonable.  My goal right now was to create a simple step-by-step user interface that requires little to no learning curve.  It would be ideal if it was well enough laid out that you never even have to look at the instructions.  There is A LOT of options and presenting those options in a an intelligent, friendly, simple and intuitive manner was the first goal.

The second goal of these beta releases was to make sure there are enough options to satisfy most peoples needs to create relatively standard towns.  If you want to point and click create a KoaToa/Drow cavern complex, this is the wrong software to use.  If you need the contents of that town which is just a dot and a name in the campaign setting, the party unexpectedly decided to go there, and the DM is now in panic preparation mode ... THAT is what this is really for.

Has anyone ever seen the movie the 13th floor?  Remember when that guy drove to the end of the world and saw nothing but grid squares?  That actaully happens occasionally when I am DM'ing a game (exactly as shown in the movie).  They decide to go somewhere I didn't expect, and poof ... I have no idea what to tell them.  15 years ago it wasn't a problem, I made it up on the fly.  Now I'm running into a mental brick wall.  Thus ... this program.  So far, no player has actually tried to keep going into the grid squares ... I keep telling myself it's job stress not old age ... 

Walter


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## Leopold (Mar 25, 2002)

ok chief let me tell you one thing:


this program is idiot proof. Why I say that? You basically hold them by the hand each step of the way and need to be blind or insane not to be able to understand each prompt. Combine this with a .html manual with step by step pictures and they will do fine.

Stop stressing over the small stuff and get us the output file. It's looking good and I cannot wait to use this in a game.

Furture request: If possible at a later date and time allow us to be able to build cities in the future or customize it so we can change out GP to CR or another form of currency. This way you can reach a bigger target audience.


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## towngen (Mar 25, 2002)

Leopold said:
			
		

> *
> 
> this program is idiot proof.
> 
> *




  You know the old saying.  Make it idiot proof and they'll build a better idiot.  Actually, thanks for the compliment.

Just remember, what is completely obvious to some, may be a deep mystery to others.  I have a lot of friends that work on computer help desks.  Never (and I mean NEVER!) underestimate the ability of the typical user to become confused.

If anyone is now embarrased into not posting a concern here, feel free to email me privately.  I promise not to make fun of anything you say.  Really.  I understand some of you aren't computer wizards and just finally got your webTV working properly to post things here.



			
				Leopold said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Furture request: If possible at a later date and time allow us to be able to build cities in the future or customize it so we can change out GP to CR or another form of currency. This way you can reach a bigger target audience. *




Hmmmm... interesting request.  That's the first time I've heard that one.  It's a great idea, but I don't think you realize what you're asking for.  Everything would have to change for building a d20 modern city.  And a d20 future city?!?  My brain is starting to shut down thinking of all stuff I'd have to do.

Beer ... need more Beer ...

Oh, sorry.

You can open the text file that I'll generate and do a global find and replace in Microsoft Word on GP to CR.   

Geeze, that was easy!  Now it supports d20 modern!

Sorry.  I'm just poking fun and my brain is half fried this evening.  I really don't think I'm going to be able to support anything other than standard D&D type towns.  Anything else and I'm going to end up in the place MT is in.  Trying to support more than is feasible, then having to scale it back so drastically that everyone is disappointed.  I just can't go there.  Not yet anyway.

I'll tell you what.  After I finish the program, I can license the source code over to you to modify for a modern & future version.  Then you can keep all the profits on it.  Interested?  That offer goes for all the people that want Mac versions also.  

Walter


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## MJEggertson (Mar 25, 2002)

I seriously don't think there's anything that needs adressing in the GUI. Everything is neatly laid out, and not too crowded. The forms are easily navigable.

One tiny thing though...I noticed your default control for each form is different on almost every frame. Frame 2 is the "Costal?" checkbox. Frame 3 is the "Part of a..." checkbox. Etc. Like I said. Its a tiny thing.


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## Leopold (Mar 25, 2002)

towngen said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I'll tell you what.  After I finish the program, I can license the source code over to you to modify for a modern & future version.  Then you can keep all the profits on it.  Interested?  That offer goes for all the people that want Mac versions also.
> 
> Walter *






and add it to the already HUGE list of stuff I am working on that is supposed to be done? hardly. If all we have to do is replace every instance of GP with CR it wouldn't be a problem. Can you have different modes where you have the exact same screeen just different title headings?


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## towngen (Mar 25, 2002)

Leopold said:
			
		

> *
> and add it to the already HUGE list of stuff I am working on that is supposed to be done? hardly. If all we have to do is replace every instance of GP with CR it wouldn't be a problem.*




That was exactly my point.    It's not just as simple as exchanging a name here and there.



			
				Leopold said:
			
		

> *
> Can you have different modes where you have the exact same screeen just different title headings? *




So I should just rename churchs to "Hospitals & Social Work Centers" and wizards to "Electronic Gadget Users"?  It just wouldn't work.  All the logic I'm using to determine the number of things would fall apart.  That goes for every category of everything.  It would be a complete rewrite from the ground up.

Granted it might be possible to create a more general purpose town creation engine that loaded tables of names and randomized up a nice mix for you, but that wouldn't be able to create the kind of town I have in mind for fantasy worlds.  You can't just rename "provisioners" with "Walmarts" and expect the town to come out right.  A modern economy works entirely different than a fantasy medieval economy with magic in it.

Perhaps some of you aren't understanding what is going on behind the scenes in my program.  Each randomized thing is based on multiple variables that tweak the probabilities slightly.  That is why the order of the screens is important.  Only something defined on either a previous or the same screen can effect a randomization on any particular screen.  The inter-relationship of what affects what is hard coded, not loaded from a table.  Trying to create something where those relationships could be swapped out would be exponentially more difficult.  It's hard enough trying to find the proper coefficients for a 4 dimensional probability field that half the time I'm already swapping that out for multiple discrete 2 dimensional probability equations (ie. use a select case statement to define ranges for 2 of the input variables, and have a completely different equation with the other 2 variables in each of the cases).


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## Leopold (Mar 26, 2002)

TMI...cannot fathom complex differential economic equations...


That last statement sound like there is allot of work trying to figure out the exact economic, political, and fundamental workings of a society. No way am i qualified to do this nor would begin to fathom howto. 

Can anyone enlighten me?


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## towngen (Mar 26, 2002)

First I'll try to explain what I said, then I'll try to relate it to town making.

Suppose that the probability of something depends on 2 other things.  Lets represent those 2 things as A and B.  The probability we are calculating will be called X.

Now imagine a graph where 2 axis are labeled A and B.  Let's call left/right on the graph to be A and lets call towards-us/away-from-us on the graph to be B.  The height of the graph will be called X.  For every point (A,B), there is a height of the graph X.  This graph is many times called a surface plot because you can visualize it as a surface.  Imagine a sandbox on top of graph paper.  There is a distance in squares left/right and forward/back.  At every distance, there is a height of the sand.

Thus I can figure out a formula, and plug A & B into it and get out an X.  Then I roll a die and see if I'm equal to or less than X.  If so, then yes that feature or attribute is present.  Otherwise it's missing (in a simple boolean case).

Now lets relate that to a town, before we go on to 4 dimensions.

Suppose that the richer a town is, the more likely that they have spent the time and money to build city walls.  This is variable A.  Town wealth.

Suppose that the bigger a town is, the more likely that they have city walls because they have more people contributing money & time, and also because it's been there longer so they had more of a chance to do it.  This is variable B.  Town size.

Lets call X the % chance for town walls to be present.

Thus:  X = f(A,B)       where f() is a formula (technically called a function) that I came up with to give me the right answers.

So I take the size and wealth, plug them into the formula and get a number back.  Now I roll a die (randomize a number).  If RandomNumber <= X then Presto!  There are town walls.

But now suppose that people who live in a very civilized area are less likely to spend that time and money than people who live near the wilderness.  Crap.  Now we have another variable.  Lets, call it C.

Thus now it's:  X = f(A,B,C)

But now I can't just visualize that easily, like before.  Since you can't make a sand table to represent it.  So now it's much harder to come up with the function f.

Suppose that the function is:  X = f(A,B,C,D)

Now I'm pulling my hair out.  That's hard to figure out!

So what I do is if both C and D are low, then I use one f(A,B).  If they are both high, then I use another f(A,B).  If one is high and the other is low, then I use another f(A,B), etc...

So I make 3 easy functions instead of 1 really hard function.  This isn't as good as a real 4 dimensional function though.  Because now there are only 2 values of C that matter.  Is it high or low?  Same for D.

Does that make sense?

Now consider the f(A,B,C) that comes up with the proper (just a guess on my part) chance of a town militia being present.  Will that be the same f(A,B,C) for a volunteer police force being present in d20 modern?  Most likely not.  That's what I was getting at.

Now there are problems with this system.  Sometimes you roll a 1 three times in a row and you get some wacky result.  Such as a large rich city in the wilderness with no city wall.  So you gotta try to limit and bounds check things also.

Is the formula that I came up with to create the number of churches correct?  I don't know.  But after much playing with it, it seems like it's putting out reasonable numbers (to me).  That's one of the other things I wanted feedback on with this beta.  So far I haven't gotten ANY answers on those subjects.  Possibly because those are the really hard questions.  But since I haven't gotten any complaints either, I assume that most people are happy with what it's putting out.

Walter


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## annadobritt (Mar 27, 2002)

I'll be taking a closer look at the way the numbers come up tomorrow.  And I'll be reading through your above mentioned formula as well, since I don't like reading long messages on the computer screen.


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## towngen (Apr 9, 2002)

Just shamelessly bumbing my own thread so this one is ahead of version 0.2 in the list.


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## annadobritt (Apr 10, 2002)

I'm still working on the breakdown for the Mercenaries.  Work had to come first.  I'm hoping I'll have some numbers for you by Saturday.


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## Yoram (Jul 30, 2007)

Anything still happening on this thread/program?

I'm very interested in it, and would like to know what if anything is still going on...


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## MythosaAkira (Jul 31, 2007)

Given that the last post was from over 5 years ago, I'm guessing not.

I remember when this subject first came up - hard to believe it was in 2002!


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## Yoram (Jul 31, 2007)

I see your point...

Does anyone know if the program has been published yet as a working version? It's a really cool piece of work, and I'd like to use it... Anyone still in contact with Walter (TownGen)?


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