# No Character Builder Update



## Kzach (Sep 15, 2010)

Unless I'm missing something, there's no scheduled character builder update this month.

Am I the only one that feels a bit ripped off whenever this happens? It seems that they change the update schedule all the time without any warning or even notice. Since 99% of the reason I subscribe is to get CB and MB updates, I feel like I've wasted a monthly subscription cost and since I had no way of knowing prior to the sub deduction, I feel cheated.

I guess I could reschedule my sub deducation so that it only renews after I'm sure each month I'll get an update, but it still seems like they should keep to a regular schedule or at the very least warn people ahead of time if they're not going to update that month.


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## MarkB (Sep 15, 2010)

Yeah, I'm not really feeling the pinch of the lack of update this month, but a friend of mine who's just got the Dark Sun sourcebook is just itching to start applying some of the new rules to his CB characters.

My DDI subscription lapsed a couple of weeks ago as I hadn't updated my card details, and I'm not intending to renew it al least until the next CB update arrives. If it had renewed, I would be feeling a bit ripped off not to be getting an update this month.


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## Lord Ernie (Sep 15, 2010)

While I can't quote the source, word on the WotC boards is that it's coming on the 21st, the same day as the official Essentials release. The reason it doesn't show on the calendar is apparently cause that day is too filled up already.

EDIT: Ah, here we go. Apparently,  this update will include the first book of Essentials.


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## MerricB (Sep 15, 2010)

Actually, the update will be on the 21st. There wasn't room in the calendar to announce it.

Announcement

Cheers!


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## im_robertb (Sep 15, 2010)

The 21st of September, yes? And it will include, most notably for my purposes, the ability score changes from Essentials?


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## StrangeFate (Sep 15, 2010)

MarkB said:


> Yeah, I'm not really feeling the pinch of the lack of update this month, but a friend of mine who's just got the Dark Sun sourcebook is just itching to start applying some of the new rules to his CB characters.
> 
> My DDI subscription lapsed a couple of weeks ago as I hadn't updated my card details, and I'm not intending to renew it al least until the next CB update arrives. If it had renewed, I would be feeling a bit ripped off not to be getting an update this month.




I'm with Mark on this one.  My DDI sub runs out end of the month.  I'm not going to renew until I get the CB update.  That component is absolutely critical to me and my group (especially with the Dark Sun material).


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## Insight (Sep 15, 2010)

I really wish the DS updates had happened last week (or before), but oh well.  My own DS game doesn't start til this weekend, so I'll only have to deal with hand-written character sheets for one session.

As for the Essentials stuff, none of my current players are going to be affected (Warlock, Runepriest, and Monk).

No big deal.


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## Jack99 (Sep 15, 2010)

im_robertb said:


> The 21st of September, yes? And it will include, most notably for my purposes, the ability score changes from Essentials?




Presumably, yes.


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## pedr (Sep 15, 2010)

I (and, presumably, every DDI subscriber with a WotC Community account) just received notification that adding the new rules systems to incorporate Dark Sun (presumably Themes) and Essentials builds hasn't been possible in time for a 21st September update, so it doesn't look as if there'll be a September update at all. The message says that they hope to update in 'early October'.


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## avin (Sep 15, 2010)

Lame.

Our DDI money is being used for what if not keep MB and CB up?

There's no excuse for this.


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## Stumblewyk (Sep 15, 2010)

pedr said:


> I (and, presumably, every DDI subscriber with a WotC Community account) just received notification that adding the new rules systems to incorporate Dark Sun (presumably Themes) and Essentials builds hasn't been possible in time for a 21st September update, so it doesn't look as if there'll be a September update at all. The message says that they hope to update in 'early October'.



 Yup.  Got the same message.  *Confirm'd.*


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## Jor-El (Sep 15, 2010)

...and so it begins. Hope this doesn't become a trend.


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## Insight (Sep 15, 2010)

pedr said:


> I (and, presumably, every DDI subscriber with a WotC Community account) just received notification that adding the new rules systems to incorporate Dark Sun (presumably Themes) and Essentials builds hasn't been possible in time for a 21st September update, so it doesn't look as if there'll be a September update at all. The message says that they hope to update in 'early October'.




Why not just put in Dark Sun by itself then?  This is very poor customer service.  The DSCS has been in stores for over a month now.  LAME


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## Shazman (Sep 15, 2010)

avin said:


> Lame.
> 
> Our DDI money is being used for what if not keep MB and CB up?
> 
> There's no excuse for this.




Agreed.


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## Ryujin (Sep 15, 2010)

I guess I'm the odd man out then. I'd rather that they held off so that I get the new content 2 weeks earlier than I would otherwise receive it. Sure, I'd like to have it now, but that wasn't going to happen anyway.


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## Ahrimon (Sep 15, 2010)

Here come the screams of entitlement.


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## beldar1215 (Sep 15, 2010)

I would have to agree with the other posters. I'm very irritated by this. I'm in a Dark Sun game and would really like to be able to completely create my character in the CB. I guess I've become overly dependent on it.  Well, I guess there is really nothing to do but wait. 

Beldar


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## AbdulAlhazred (Sep 15, 2010)

Well, I think what we have to remember is we get what we pay for. At $7 a month I'm guessing the staff simply doesn't exist to incorporate all of DS, including new rules elements like themes, PLUS all the stuff needed to support Essentials (which is again going a good bit beyond just dropping in some new powers and such).

In any case they're basically saying the ship date on the update has slipped a couple weeks. Not ideal, but in the software world stuff has to WORK before you can ship it. What do you want? Broken code? They gotta both make money and try as best they can to please everyone, AND at the cheapest price possible. As we say in the software world, cheap, fast, good, pick two.


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## im_robertb (Sep 15, 2010)

Ahrimon said:


> Here come the screams of entitlement.




Yes, people have a notion that they are entitled to get what they paid for. How ludicrous.


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## avin (Sep 15, 2010)

AbdulAlhazred said:


> Well, I think what we have to remember is we get what we pay for. At $7 a month I'm guessing the staff simply doesn't exist to incorporate all of DS, including new rules elements like themes, PLUS all the stuff needed to support Essentials (which is again going a good bit beyond just dropping in some new powers and such).
> 
> In any case they're basically saying the ship date on the update has slipped a couple weeks. Not ideal, but in the software world stuff has to WORK before you can ship it. What do you want? Broken code? They gotta both make money and try as best they can to please everyone, AND at the cheapest price possible. As we say in the software world, cheap, fast, good, pick two.




I see your point, but I'm not a programmer and I don't think I should wait with a smile in the face waiting for a delayed update of a product I pay monthly for.

Not my problem if Wotc has no programmers to do the job.

Raise the price then and see if people think it's worth or not.

Judging by recent low quality articles and delays on MB and CB I'd say no.


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## mac1504 (Sep 15, 2010)

Don't kill the messenger, but I just received this email (don't recall receiving other WOTC notices, or "broadcasts" as they titled this one) about the DDI character builder:

Wednesday, September 15, 2010	
D&D Insider Subscriber,



Unfortunately, we will not have a data update ready for the D&D Insider tools in September.  The process of integrating the new changes from Dark Sun and Essentials is taking a bit longer than we expected, and we plan to update the Character Builder in early October.  We will continue to keep you informed of any changes to the schedule, and apologize for any inconvenience this may cause.




Sincerely,


The D&DI Team


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## UngainlyTitan (Sep 15, 2010)

I think that people are entitled to feel agrreved somewhat at the delay. I also reckon that the suggestion that they did not have enough staff to handle all the changes is also correct.
That said they should review how their content management system works.
My belief would be that when they are at development/playtesting stage they the playtesting should also be using an inhouse version of DDI to create characters, monster and so forth. THe inhouse database should be able to record what is new and what has bee updated and when the stuff gets published then all approved changes should be replicated automatically to the external database.


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## UngainlyTitan (Sep 15, 2010)

avin said:


> I see your point, but I'm not a programmer and I don't think I should wait with a smile in the face waiting for a delayed update of a product I pay monthly for.
> 
> Not my problem if Wotc has no programmers to do the job.
> 
> ...



It is not a programming job. Or if DDi database has been designed properly it should not be a programming job. It should be simply a question of enough people that can do head down data entry.


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## Theroc (Sep 15, 2010)

Ahrimon said:


> Here come the screams of entitlement.




Personally, the current month's update isn't so important to me as HAVING the CB updated to the normal version in SOME capacity.  >.>  I got this thing on Friday or saturday, STILL haven't gotten it working.

However, it could be a technical error on my end, so I'm not blaming Wizards yet.


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## Mengu (Sep 15, 2010)

I was as hyped about the update this month as everyone else, but the delay doesn't come as a surprise.

Essentials and Dark Sun both require massive changes to the CB. Their dev cycles are based on pushing a certain amount of updates, they can handle a book and a magazine every month.

But for this month, even the extra 2 weeks obviously didn't cut it. It's a classic case of expectation vs reality. For this update they not only need to add content, which usually isn't as big a deal since each new feat or power is normally fairly self contained, but they have to change the way classes work.

Dark Sun themes are a new mechanic, equipment from Dark Sun alone is like adding in a new AV. Some races already had optional mechanics so adding the new racial options from E# shouldn't be a big deal. There will be a lot of maintenance and clean up for all the wizard powers that changed, and all the feats that changed. This part is like a massive errata update. Then there is all the new E# class mechanics, removal of powers, etc. And then rules have to be established for multiclass power swap feats that work differently for these new builds, not only with your typical multiclass, but also with the a-typical and obscure bloodline power swaps such as Bogtangle Warrior.

Getting all this squared away in 4 or even 6 months, is not that feasible. How much we pay WotC doesn't really matter in this case because regardless of how much man-power you throw at it, an increase in project scope like this will take time.

On the business end, they should be giving next month's DDI subscription free for those who had subscribed this month. I know people who subscribe for a month every now and then. For those monthly subscribers who based their decision to subscribe for September since they knew Dark Sun and Essentials material would be in CB, it's a rather frustrating let down because now, not only do they not get what they thought they would, but they have to subscribe another month to actually get the content that was promised. This free extension shouldn't even require an email to support.


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## hafrogman (Sep 15, 2010)

I think my main problems with the delays are these:

1) It looks like they've bitten off more than can chew, and their service is suffering for it.  Dark Sun was released quite a long while before any essentials product.  There is no reason for them to try and cram all the changes into a single update.

2) The custom campaign element features are quite badly implemented.  Normally this doesn't bother me too much, as I'm not using them.  But when I want to implement my new Dark Sun character without the update, it becomes a problem.  I can manually type in a power card, and force it into a character, but there's no real information associated with it.  I can't assign that power a class, level, type or use rate (at-will, encounter, daily).  Then I try and assign my hand-typed new Warlock at-will as my half-elf's dilletante power and it crashes the program every time.

If the September update had been smaller and designed to only encompass those books that were on sale in August, I'd be happier.  If the existing program was capable of being tweaked for me to add my own information, I'd be happier.  Combine the two issues, and waiting eight weeks for a book to be implemented into the program I pay for every four weeks (or actually every 52, but you get the idea) is indeed something that fills me with nerd-rage of entitlement or whatever you want to deride it as.


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## avin (Sep 15, 2010)

Still, they were aware this would take a lot of time and prepared for it.

It's not the first missed update, MB got one when MM3 launched.

One would thought they would learn the lesson and start working early, cause this books were ready a good time before they reach us.


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## Majoru Oakheart (Sep 15, 2010)

mac1504 said:


> Don't kill the messenger, but I just received this email (don't recall receiving other WOTC notices, or "broadcasts" as they titled this one) about the DDI character builder:



Yep, I just got it too.  Wow.  I'm really disappointed about this one.  I was really looking forward to playing in D&D Encounters with a character I made.  But I really hate making characters by hand.

And when the characters builder update was scheduled for the 21st, at least i had one day before Encounters began.


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## Ryujin (Sep 15, 2010)

mac1504 said:


> Don't kill the messenger, but I just received this email (don't recall receiving other WOTC notices, or "broadcasts" as they titled this one) about the DDI character builder:
> 
> Wednesday, September 15, 2010
> D&D Insider Subscriber,
> ...




OK, now I'm annoyed. 'Late' I can take. 'Not' is a different story.


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## Shazman (Sep 15, 2010)

im_robertb said:


> Yes, people have a notion that they are entitled to get what they paid for. How ludicrous.




Exactly.  The people that paid for a ddi subscription to get the September updates are getting ripped off.  They are paying for a product and not receiving the product.  I believe that could technically be considered fraud.  If they want to refund customers subscriptions or give them a month free, that would be fair. It probably won't happen, but it would the right thing to do.


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## drothgery (Sep 15, 2010)

If I were to guess, the D&Di team fell prey to one of the classic mistakes in software estimation. They realized they weren't going to have Dark Sun (and the rest of the August content) done in time for the normal first-Tuesday of the month update, but instead of just pushing that update (and the rest of the updates this year!) out a week, they said 'okay, we'll be two weeks late, but we'll push out the Essentials content at the same time!'. Which you should never do (promise to make up for being late by adding more features), but happens all the time, and almost never works out because the new features make things later.

So they started working on adding the essentials features as well, and now the code's in a state where they can't easily roll back the Essentials features and do an August-only update.


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## Marshall (Sep 15, 2010)

AbdulAlhazred said:


> Well, I think what we have to remember is we get what we pay for. At $7 a month I'm guessing the staff simply doesn't exist to incorporate all of DS, including new rules elements like themes, PLUS all the stuff needed to support Essentials (which is again going a good bit beyond just dropping in some new powers and such).
> 
> In any case they're basically saying the ship date on the update has slipped a couple weeks. Not ideal, but in the software world stuff has to WORK before you can ship it. What do you want? Broken code? They gotta both make money and try as best they can to please everyone, AND at the cheapest price possible. As we say in the software world, cheap, fast, good, pick two.




No, the ship date on this update was 9/1. Its already been delayed for 3 weeks to allow for Essentials. Now the Sept Update has been *Cancelled* and they are _hoping_ to actually get the OCT out on time.
This, combined with the collapse of the Dragon release schedule this month, should lead to every DDI subscriber demanding a refund of this months fees.


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## knifie_sp00nie (Sep 15, 2010)

For all the complainers, how would you like it if several hundred people started screaming at you every time something went wrong at your job? What jobs do you have where everything runs perfectly and no one is ever sick or management doesn't meddle so projects never get delayed? Maybe you should set up a forum discussing your job so I can post about how incompetent you are every time you slip up or are the victim of outside circumstances.

If you've ever worked in software development you've lived through what's going on at WotC many times. The character builder seems impressively flexible, but adding exceptions and new behaviors will usually hit snags you didn't anticipate. Then there's testing. If a release went out with major bugs they'd get three times the amount of grief they are getting now.

I was looking forward to the update as well, but I don't think WotC owes me anything from this except their intent to get things done right. All of the existing DDI infrastructure is still up and running properly. Unless this stretches out for way too long I still think I'm getting my money's worth.

And accusations of fraud? Really? My understanding is that takes intent. This is just a snafu that could happen to any business. 

Where is your humanity? Is this how you treat your friends, significant other, or children? Do you hold them to impossibly high standards? Do you curse and hate them when they make a mistake?


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## MrMyth (Sep 15, 2010)

Shazman said:


> Exactly. The people that paid for a ddi subscription to get the September updates are getting ripped off. They are paying for a product and not receiving the product. I believe that could technically be considered fraud. If they want to refund customers subscriptions or give them a month free, that would be fair. It probably won't happen, but it would the right thing to do.




Actually, I believe that is what happened on the previous occasion where a CB update wasn't available for a month. Anyone whose subscription was going to end that month (thus leaving them without that next update) could contact Customer Service and have their subscription freely extended by a month. 

No idea if they will do that here, but I'd be very surprised if they didn't. I doubt they'll make any public sort of offer of a free month, but I suspect anyone who complains about the change will be compensated in some fashion.


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## Artoomis (Sep 15, 2010)

1.  I am very disappointed.

2.  I am, however, not terribly surprised.

3.  WotC has over-promised and under-delivered.  Again.  (Virtual Gaming Table, anyone??)

<Sigh.>  There is a fair bit of material I'd like to see published in CB/Compendium.  The last Dragon issue, for example.  <Heavy sigh.>


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## hafrogman (Sep 15, 2010)

knifie_sp00nie said:


> Where is your humanity?



It is reserved for dealing with humans.  Wizards of the Coast is a company.  

It is not my child, my girlfriend or my friend.  I don't get to hang out with WotC when I'm bored, they never go to see movies with me when my other friends are busy, and WotC has NEVER, EVER helped me move.

It is good to remember that there are real people behind the company, yes.  But you can't treat a corporation like an individual, the scales are simply too different.  If anyone is looking up the credits for the character builder and berating the individuals behind it, then you're right, they're going too far.  But expressing dissatisfaction with a company as a whole is an extremely different situation.


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## MerricB (Sep 15, 2010)

ardoughter said:


> It is not a programming job. Or if DDi database has been designed properly it should not be a programming job. It should be simply a question of enough people that can do head down data entry.




I'm sorry... updating the Character Builder with Essentials is not a programming job? You really have no clue, do you?

The changes in D&D Essentials make a fundamental change to how D&D character creation works. It might look similar, but it isn't. I'm very glad I don't have the job of programming it, because it'd be a major task. I'm tremendously disappointed that it isn't ready yet, but I'm not going to dismiss the scale of the task.

Conversely, the D&D Compendium *should* be ready. As it is just a database with a simple set of filters, that should really just be a case of data entry.


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## Verys Arkon (Sep 15, 2010)

The CB has been so useful that my entire group dreads making up characters by hand. In fact, we have been delaying the start of our new Dark Sun campaign because we wanted the CB to be ready.  Technology has made us lazy, for sure.


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## im_robertb (Sep 15, 2010)

Verys Arkon said:


> The CB has been so useful that my entire group dreads making up characters by hand. In fact, we have been delaying the start of our new Dark Sun campaign because we wanted the CB to be ready.  Technology has made us lazy, for sure.




Just want to echo this. Especially for creating new characters, things like the changes to racial ability scores are important. Still deciding if I just want to tell people about the changes or delay starting my KotS campaign a month.


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## Goonalan (Sep 15, 2010)

knifie_sp00nie said:


> For all the complainers, how would you like it if several hundred people started screaming at you every time something went wrong at your job? What jobs do you have where everything runs perfectly and no one is ever sick or management doesn't meddle so projects never get delayed? Maybe you should set up a forum discussing your job so I can post about how incompetent you are every time you slip up or are the victim of outside circumstances.
> 
> If you've ever worked in software development you've lived through what's going on at WotC many times. The character builder seems impressively flexible, but adding exceptions and new behaviors will usually hit snags you didn't anticipate. Then there's testing. If a release went out with major bugs they'd get three times the amount of grief they are getting now.
> 
> ...




You're right of course but I guess I don't feel that often that WOTC are my friends (let alone significant others or children), I'll not go into the reasons- it would take too long.

I'm not a mean guy, I'm actually a very nice guy, as to my job I work late, take work home with me and generally go out of my way to do the right thing.

I can still feel disppointment with WOTC though, I don't feel defrauded- it's not that kind of extreme reaction, it's just that I guess I've fallen into the role of consumer, and WOTC (at times) doesn't meet my expectations.

I don't demand that things are right (all the time), or on time (all the time), I just see it (rightly or wrongly) of another thing that WOTC has slipped up on. And you may not see it that way- and that's of course fine and dandy...

I can't help but worry though- that things are getting a little... messed up, maybe that's not the right word. I'm a 4e maniac, upto three games a week (when I'm on leave), all (atm) with people who are brand new to the sport (or were when we started).

I'm having problems tracking the changes that have come, or are coming- depending on whether you have the books or are reliant on the CB et al. I usually ask here when I need to work things out but... It'd just be nice if DDi could keep up, keep me better informed.

Perhaps part of the problem is that there are som many pre-release previews, or chatter here- it just sometimes feels that the on-line takes a good while to catch up.

Remember I said I had a job that I was quite good/conscientious at- well that eats great chunks of my life, I rely on DDi- probably too much but at present I have 36 4th edition hard bound WOTC D&D books on the shelf to my right- I've not read one of them all the way through (remember that job again) the DDi means I don't have to carry any of them between point A and point B, or know the page for rules on...

I'd like the updates to be better managed, I'd also like some new developments, and maybe some of the stuff that was promised when 4e rolled out... but the latter is for another day, or else I'll just keepon  hoping.

Lastly I'd like you, and I really am I nice guy, I promise- I'd like you and those that felt defrauded (perhaps) to not tell me off so much for feeling like I do... I mean I'm not going to fret that you feel I shouldn't complain, I promise you I'll sleep like a tot tonight, but... my humanity?

LOL

You're entitled to one of course (an opinion) but come on... this is the internet- stop bustin' my chops for being part of a gang of folks having a whinge on the net.

Oh and nobody is actually screaming at anybody... really, just some stuff on the internet- meh.

I promise you nobodies humanity will suffer, this evening, or any other.

LOVE

Goonalan


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## JoeGKushner (Sep 15, 2010)

pedr said:


> I (and, presumably, every DDI subscriber with a WotC Community account) just received notification that adding the new rules systems to incorporate Dark Sun (presumably Themes) and Essentials builds hasn't been possible in time for a 21st September update, so it doesn't look as if there'll be a September update at all. The message says that they hope to update in 'early October'.




If only they had known months ago what the Essentials books and Dark Sun book would have in it.

I hope that WoTC extends everyone's subscription by a month because of this.


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## Dire Bare (Sep 15, 2010)

Ahrimon said:


> Here come the screams of entitlement.




Man, did you call it!  Not that it was a hard call to make.

Somehow, I think I'll survive one month without a CB update.  My life will go on, my game will go on, and I will remain a satisfied WotC customer.

You'd think all this hyperbolic entitlement would be bad for folks health, unnecessarily rising blood pressures, etc . . . life is so much more enjoyable when you don't bother to sweat the small stuff.

OUCH!  What, was that a piece of sky falling on my head?


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## Festivus (Sep 15, 2010)

Marshall said:


> No, the ship date on this update was 9/1. Its already been delayed for 3 weeks to allow for Essentials. Now the Sept Update has been *Cancelled* and they are _hoping_ to actually get the OCT out on time.
> This, combined with the collapse of the Dragon release schedule this month, should lead to every DDI subscriber demanding a refund of this months fees.




I was thinking I needed to write a letter to complain about that very thing.


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## JoeGKushner (Sep 15, 2010)

Ahrimon said:


> Here come the screams of entitlement.




Uh... you do now that's not share ware and people pay for it right?

Can you define what you think entitlement means in this instance?


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## JoeGKushner (Sep 15, 2010)

Curse and hate are strong words.

People are paying for a service. WoTC is failing to provide.

How WoTC will make that up, if at all, remains to be seen.



knifie_sp00nie said:


> For all the complainers, how would you like it if several hundred people started screaming at you every time something went wrong at your job? What jobs do you have where everything runs perfectly and no one is ever sick or management doesn't meddle so projects never get delayed? Maybe you should set up a forum discussing your job so I can post about how incompetent you are every time you slip up or are the victim of outside circumstances.
> 
> If you've ever worked in software development you've lived through what's going on at WotC many times. The character builder seems impressively flexible, but adding exceptions and new behaviors will usually hit snags you didn't anticipate. Then there's testing. If a release went out with major bugs they'd get three times the amount of grief they are getting now.
> 
> ...


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## MerricB (Sep 15, 2010)

JoeGKushner said:


> People are paying for a service. WoTC is failing to provide.
> 
> How WoTC will make that up, if at all, remains to be seen.




I hope they do. Despite the update being problematic, they _should_ have it ready.

Cheers!


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## Goonalan (Sep 15, 2010)

MerricB said:


> I'm sorry... updating the Character Builder with Essentials is not a programming job? You really have no clue, do you?
> 
> The changes in D&D Essentials make a fundamental change to how D&D character creation works. It might look similar, but it isn't. I'm very glad I don't have the job of programming it, because it'd be a major task. I'm tremendously disappointed that it isn't ready yet, but I'm not going to dismiss the scale of the task.
> 
> Conversely, the D&D Compendium *should* be ready. As it is just a database with a simple set of filters, that should really just be a case of data entry.




No, I too have no clue as to how long the task will take, I know when they said it would be done- I figure they know what the task involves... 

I guess you do too, and I guess you know all about programming- perhaps they should get some more programmers in, better management- whatever it takes really to prevent this kind of thing happening again.

I'm not dismissing the size of the task, I'm just saying that this month, for whatever reason, they weren't up to it. I think that's what some other people are remarking upon in this thread too- including the OP.

This is the 'I'm disappointed in WOTC not updating the CB thread', isn't it?

Them, I believe, are the facts.

By the way thanks for the reports on the Ravenloft game, and a myriad other posts here and elsewhere- top work.

Oh, and a game related question, as I said in a previous post I'm struggling with some of the new rules (updates)- and I'm the only D&D savvy guy in all of the games I play- do you know for a fact that the compendium will be up to date with the new rules? Any idea when?

Thanks again. 

Cheers Goonalan


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## Baumi (Sep 15, 2010)

Man Psionics must really be unpopular, I have not seen one post so far mentioning the missing Psionic Power Books which should also be updated. 

By the way I'm close to canceling the subscription not because of this incident but the DDI is constantly getting worse instead of better. 

The Dragon Articles are getting more and more uninteresting (short and full of problematic crunch), the Dungeon seems to include only low Heroic and very short Adventures anymore, the Monster Builder is extremely buggy, is missing important features and still beta after a year, the Compendium doesn't work on my Android-Phone and the Scheduling of the CB was already too late (in the Beginning of DDI it was nearly on the same day as the book-Release!). 

P.S.: But I'm at least thankful that they announced it openly this time instead of hiding important things in Blog- or Forum-Postings.


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## Nork (Sep 15, 2010)

If they don't get the Dark Sun stuff in at least...

Then I think they shouldn't charge for the month, or at least knock a significant amount off the monthly.

Wizards isn't entitled to money.  

They had enough time to get it done, with plenty of "oops we screwed up, Plan B" time as well.


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## knifie_sp00nie (Sep 15, 2010)

Right. WotC is a corporation that makes a product and we are consumers and not friends. I can stop giving them money if I don't feel like I'm getting a good value or they are acting in bad faith.

At the same time, how many other corporations of any decent size have employees interact with the customers as directly as WotC? Mike Mearls is someone I've never met, but he's still a person with a day job. We may think it's the greatest job in the world, but it's still work. There are deadlines and problems like any other job as well as a personal life to deal with. 

How do you think it feels to be in that office right now? Nobody wants things to be delayed. They've been working their butts off for months to get Essentials done, and who knows what pressured them into creating it in the first place. Whatever it was, it wasn't some conspiracy to make you irate.

I'm also tired of hearing that it's "just the internet and I'm venting" from all the internet tough-guys. There's lots of behaviors that used to be acceptable (they're only slaves) that we don't tolerate today. The culture was altered because one group of people called out the other on their brutishness. Would you actually read some of these posts to the people at Wizards if you were looking them in the face? 

So yeah, corporations aren't people. Most corps don't pretend to be people (legal status aside) or even pretend to care. We've seen the authors respond personally here and on other message boards. Would you rather read some lip service reply written by a marketer and a lawyer via a twitter post like other corps give you?

It's good to be a knowledgeable consumer and not be taken advantage of by a company operating in bad faith. Have some perspective though. Consider how many people there are working at WotC and just how few gamers there really are compared to something like iPhone owners and employees at Apple. Even Steve Jobs slips up and has to delay a release from time to time.


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## MerricB (Sep 15, 2010)

Goonalan said:


> No, I too have no clue as to how long the task will take, I know when they said it would be done- I figure they know what the task involves...
> 
> I guess you do too, and I guess you know all about programming- perhaps they should get some more programmers in, better management- whatever it takes really to prevent this kind of thing happening again.




If only it were that simple! More programmers, alas, rarely help as there's a limit to how many people can program a program at once. 

I've got a suspicion that there are some major underlying rewrites of the CB that need to be done as a result of Essentials, and that causes a lot of cascading problems. You know how we're all loving the way that Wizards are going away from the strict progression of powers with Essentials? It's a programmer's nightmare.



> I'm not dismissing the size of the task, I'm just saying that this month, for whatever reason, they weren't up to it. I think that's what some other people are remarking upon in this thread too- including the OP.
> 
> This is the 'I'm disappointed in WOTC not updating the CB thread', isn't it?




Think so. 

I don't disagree at all that Wizards have dropped the ball here, and - along with others - I think they should be held to account for it. I just take offense at someone (not you) assuming that the CB update is "just" data entry.

Still, I can't see any excuse whatsoever for the D&D Compendium update being late. Surely it can't be *that* difficult to get the Essentials information into it?

CHeers!


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## MerricB (Sep 15, 2010)

Baumi said:


> Man Psionics must really be unpopular, I have not seen one post so far mentioning the missing Psionic Power Books which should also be updated.




Oh my, I hadn't thought of that. My Ardent! He needs his powers!



> By the way I'm close to canceling the subscription not because of this incident but the DDI is constantly getting worse instead of better.
> 
> The Dragon Articles are getting more and more uninteresting (short and full of problematic crunch), the Dungeon seems to include only low Heroic and very short Adventures anymore, the Monster Builder is extremely buggy, is missing important features and still beta after a year, the Compendium doesn't work on my Android-Phone and the Scheduling of the CB was already too late (in the Beginning of DDI it was nearly on the same day as the book-Release!).




To be fair, the Android phone is your fault - shouldn't you have a better piece of equipment?  However, I agree with you totally that Wizards are struggling to provide good DDi content. 

Cheers!


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## MarkB (Sep 15, 2010)

knifie_sp00nie said:


> For all the complainers, how would you like it if several hundred people started screaming at you every time something went wrong at your job? What jobs do you have where everything runs perfectly and no one is ever sick or management doesn't meddle so projects never get delayed? Maybe you should set up a forum discussing your job so I can post about how incompetent you are every time you slip up or are the victim of outside circumstances.




I work in a company that provides services to thousands of people, and part of my job involves customer service calls, some of which can get quite irate as people get upset with us for missing a deadline or messing them around, often through circumstances beyond our control.

But you know what? That comes with the job. Those people are our customers, and they're paying us for a service, so if we let them down in any way, we apologise and do our absolute best to sort it out for them, even if the problem wasn't our fault, and if they're irate and annoyed, we'll hear them out anyway and remain polite. And if a problem on our part puts them out of pocket, we compensate them. Because that's what they're paying us for.

So while I'm not about to start pinning blame on any particular person or department in WotC, I don't feel any need to refrain from voicing my displeasure at the company as a whole for missing this sort of deadline. They're a big company, they can take it.


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## MerricB (Sep 15, 2010)

MarkB said:


> They're a big company, they can take it.




I've suddenly got this vision of the Wizards building, curled up in a corner, sobbing...


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## Bold or Stupid (Sep 15, 2010)

MerricB said:


> Oh my, I hadn't thought of that. My Ardent! He needs his powers!
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Just quoting to say I need to spread some Xp around, and to thank you for bring some reason and balance to this sad affair. I support what you have been saying. can someone cover me?


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## UngainlyTitan (Sep 15, 2010)

MerricB said:


> I'm sorry... updating the Character Builder with Essentials is not a programming job? You really have no clue, do you?
> 
> The changes in D&D Essentials make a fundamental change to how D&D character creation works. It might look similar, but it isn't. I'm very glad I don't have the job of programming it, because it'd be a major task. I'm tremendously disappointed that it isn't ready yet, but I'm not going to dismiss the scale of the task.
> 
> Conversely, the D&D Compendium *should* be ready. As it is just a database with a simple set of filters, that should really just be a case of data entry.



Ok I had forgotten about themes (Dark Sun) they would require new programming the only other element that is fundamentally different in an essentials character from the regular character is that class abilities now come at different levels.
A lot really depends on how the thing was initially designed and exactly how rushed the initial developement.


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## Goonalan (Sep 15, 2010)

I'm also tired of hearing that it's "just the internet and I'm venting" from all the internet tough-guys. There's lots of behaviors that used to be acceptable (they're only slaves) that we don't tolerate today. The culture was altered because one group of people called out the other on their brutishness. Would you actually read some of these posts to the people at Wizards if you were looking them in the face? 



I'm not that tough any more, waiting for a knee-op- i hope I exude macho here on the net of course but... I am an ex-boxer, ex-armed forces guy- out of shape of course... but, I assure you, I coulda' been a contender...

I too don't like brutish behaviour, but- and I'm sorry to say it again- rather here on the internet... get it out of your system, feel refreshed- tomorrow (at work) I will be faced by a whole new set of problems. And I'll be dancing to begin with, because I had my vent, said my bit, drew a line in the sand, planted the flag of justice, wielded the holy (vorpal) sword of indignation... more blather follows, oh you know what I mean.

The stuff I wrote, of course I'd say it to their faces, I live in the UK- I phone up the BBC/ITV/C4 (etc.) to tell them when they've treated people badly (or just been plain lazy ), or not done their job properly. I some how delude myself that this makes me the good guy at times- particularly as my work requires me to know about a) TV, and the associated Media b) disability- the later being the most common cause of my complaints to the aforementioned.
If I lived in the US I'd phone Wizards, or write- I've written e-mails to them in the past, and I've sent as many complimentary ones as I have bad ones (just about).

I get what you're saying, don't get me wrong, we are just venting though- and we're a bit mad (rightly or wrongly), the OP wanted to vent- 

We came, we read, we vented.

Best thing about D&D- easy, brings people together.

Mostly not to agree with each other however.

LOL.


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## Nahat Anoj (Sep 15, 2010)

Bold or Stupid said:


> Just quoting to say I need to spread some Xp around, and to thank you for bring some reason and balance to this sad affair. I support what you have been saying. can someone cover me?



I got your back.

EDIT: Xp ninja'd by JoeGKushner.  Oh well, MerricB probably deserves at least 2 points.


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## LuckyAdrastus (Sep 16, 2010)

Baumi said:


> Man Psionics must really be unpopular, I have not seen one post so far mentioning the missing Psionic Power Books which should also be updated.




Yeah, this is the effect on me.  We're going to start a two-session adventure with new 16th level characters in my regular campaign to give a player the chance to DM.  I loved Psionic Power and wanted to try an Eladrin Iron Soul monk (Samurai Jack).  Now I won't be able to do it with the CB, which is a huge time-saver for making a 16th level character from scratch.


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## Aegeri (Sep 16, 2010)

This really disappointed me, I have two games starting soon and I was hoping to have the CB update out and available to my players for it - so I delayed them until the "tools" were to be out. Oh what a foolish idea that was. 

Seriously, with the slipping of quality content in dragon/dungeon and now these continual delays - why should I maintain a subscription?


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## djordi (Sep 16, 2010)

EXPLETIVE happens. Coming from the other end of software development I know that.

The issue is enough delays have happened with DDI that it's pretty clear that there are core issues with the production and pipeline. When the Monster Manual 3 was published it took three months before the new format appeared in DDI. Now, granted, that was a large task of converting every monster in the game. But they definitely knew it was going to happen when the book was complete and sent for proofing. They most likely knew well before then during the production of the book.

It seems like the same issues are apparent with Dark Sun and Essentials. WoTC knew that there were some major changes required well before the books were printed, but someone messed up.

I was pleasantly surprised when WoTC first announced that DDI would update with the official release of the Essentials books. "Oh, they're getting their act together to make a good impression on the new customers they're trying to bring in and some people who have lapsed."

And we now see how that turned out. 

As a DDI consumer my expectation is that Dragon and Dungeon content is in at the beginning of the next month. Not any of this "months later" stuff that's been happening. The same with the books. Everything USED to get updated like that.


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## CovertOps (Sep 16, 2010)

djordi said:


> EXPLETIVE happens. Coming from the other end of software development I know that.
> 
> The issue is enough delays have happened with DDI that it's pretty clear that there are core issues with the production and pipeline. When the Monster Manual 3 was published it took three months before the new format appeared in DDI. Now, granted, that was a large task of converting every monster in the game. But they definitely knew it was going to happen when the book was complete and sent for proofing. They most likely knew well before then during the production of the book.
> 
> ...




Updates seem to come out on time if all they have to do is update the DB.  My guess is they need 1 extra body doing the programming.  You branch your code so you can do data updates in one branch and code updates in the other side by side.  I'll also guess that they can't justify the cost for that 1 person to upper management for some dumb reason.


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## the Jester (Sep 16, 2010)

If WotC could guarantee an on-time update to the Compendium, CB and ATs every month, would you be willing to pay twice the current rate?

Increasing their workload costs money. You pay for the tools and the online content in Dungeon and Dragon, and the updates are a part of the package, but I think it is completely ridiculous to whine and cry that missing an update twice a year means that WotC has ruined your game, shot your dog and stolen your lunch.


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## djordi (Sep 16, 2010)

the Jester said:


> If WotC could guarantee an on-time update to the Compendium, CB and ATs every month, would you be willing to pay twice the current rate?
> 
> Increasing their workload costs money. You pay for the tools and the online content in Dungeon and Dragon, and the updates are a part of the package, but I think it is completely ridiculous to whine and cry that missing an update twice a year means that WotC has ruined your game, shot your dog and stolen your lunch.




Asteroids do not concern me.











Ok, serious answer now 

I believe it is a mischaracterization to call presenting expectations along with  observations that there are serious production and pipeline issues with DDI as "whining and crying."

My life is not going to end because I can't build Dark Sun characters in CB. In fact at the moment it will be hardly affected at all since my group is currently on hiatus from playing. I'm preparing a new campaign and it'll be a bit before I can play. But when we playing before it grew to be a pain to wait for late, late updates. 

"Hey Jim, these duelist feats would be perfect for your rogue!"

"Awesome, I'll tweak my dude in the next update."

*next update arrives*

"Oh I guess it'll be next month."

*next update arrives*

"Oh... next month?"​
I just see this as signs of bigger issues. In general when one deliverable is 20% late or behind schedule most people really want to believe that it's a one time occurrence and they'll catch up. When in reality it's usually that they'll always be 20% late.

Also, I would totes pay 2x the current rate if it would guaranteed real on time updates. Well, as long as it included progress with more Adventure Tools. But that's not the issue here. The issue is DDI is failing to meet their dates. When it's less than a week out for an already delayed update and they say "maybe next month?" that points to bigger issues. At the very least it points to bad production practices / scheduling. And it probably points to a pipeline that makes it difficult to actually do the updates.


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## Markn (Sep 16, 2010)

Fact - WotC employees work on books about a year in advance.
Fact - There are some design changes that happen after most of the book is complete, but not by much.  Major additions/changes that are needed for CB or MB should be recognized long before the "data due date" comes up.
Fact - Once a book goes to the printers, its set in stone.  If I'm not mistaken this is about 2-3 months in advance.  

WotC should be working with that schedule.  In other words, they should be working on data input/CB & MB redesigns about 2 months in advance.  Therefore, if they fail to meet their own personal deadline of 2 months prior to release, they should still have 2 months to resolve any issues and still publish the content on time.   This is my opinion, but would make for a much more successful model than they currently have.

Now for some speculation.  I suspect that WorC is focusing on some new major releases which is taking a majority of their time - and possibly has been for a while now.  Near Gencon we heard that they are getting close to making some big announcements.  I suspect it might be a completely new version of both the CB and the MB (which may include some extra tools).  Its possible that I am wrong but this is my gut feeling at the moment.  Its possible that the new software is taking longer than expected OR they have some bugs that need to be worked out, and therefore are behind the 8-ball on support of this version since they were anticipating the release of the other one by now.

Anyways, carry on with your day.  This is my .02 gp.


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## drothgery (Sep 16, 2010)

djordi said:


> Also, I would totes pay 2x the current rate if it would guaranteed real on time updates. Well, as long as it included progress with more Adventure Tools. But that's not the issue here. The issue is DDI is failing to meet their dates. When it's less than a week out for an already delayed update and they say "maybe next month?" that points to bigger issues. At the very least it points to bad production practices / scheduling. And it probably points to a pipeline that makes it difficult to actually do the updates.




The update was going to be late, but it was also going to include material that would normally not appear until next month's update. Like I said before, this has all the signs of the D&Di team realizing they were going to be late with the Dark Sun + other August releases updates, and then promising to get them AND the Essentials updates done a couple of weeks early as a way of compensating. Which I've seen IT managers try to do more times than I can count (it *never* works, but that doesn't stop people from trying; it's almost as much of a classic as trying to add more people to a late project and then being shocked that it makes the project later). What they should have done is slipped the Dark Sun/August updates *AND *slipped all future updates until they have a data-only update month by the same amount of time (starting with the September/Essentials updates).


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## Truename (Sep 16, 2010)

CovertOps said:


> Updates seem to come out on time if all they have to do is update the DB.  My guess is they need 1 extra body doing the programming.  You branch your code so you can do data updates in one branch and code updates in the other side by side.  I'll also guess that they can't justify the cost for that 1 person to upper management for some dumb reason.




Sorry to pick on you, CovertOps, but this armchair quarterbacking is driving me crazy. (It's not just you; your post just happened to be handy.) As a professional programmer and consultant specializing in team software development processes, I can tell you it's just not that simple.

YES, WotC should be able to meet their commitments. YES, there are certainly problems with the way they're approaching their software planning. NO, these problems are not unique to WoTC. NO, it's not a sign of management incompetence or miserliness. Without knowing exactly what's happening on the DDI team, there is no way to know what the problem is. The only thing that's certain is that the simplistic amateur-hour "solutions" on this thread won't fix it.

Software development is hard. Really, really hard. Unless you're very careful about taking time for code quality, the same tasks become harder and slower over time. Unless you're very careful about risk management, your software has less than a 10% chance of meeting its deadlines. And once a team gets to a certain size, adding more people slows development down _even further_.

Software development is hard. Let's go shopping!


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## caudor (Sep 16, 2010)

[Gets a cig and inhales]

No matter how hard I try, I just can't seem to get worked up over it.  It takes more than an overdue game update to get me worked up.  Don't know if that's a blessing or a curse. 

Sorry, that's just me.


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## Aegeri (Sep 16, 2010)

I spend a lot of time defending Wizards on other forums and here. It's getting harder and harder to do so when they continually pull things like this, delaying the PE: Assassin article (one of the only things I was genuinely looking forward to this month) and such forth. I mean, I wanted to start my games after Psionic Power and Essentials was out, so my PCs didn't have to do a lot of rebuilding their characters and such. Now, to be fair to them, I have to allow them to rebuild their characters after the initial couple of sessions (changing macros in my online games to match things they fiddled with). That wastes a lot of time in my online games (as invariably it is done at the beginning of a session) so that means less DnD for Aegeri. That doesn't make me happy at all.

So now I delay my games start further or I play with characters that won't be the same in two weeks or so time. That's my problem.


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## Holy Bovine (Sep 16, 2010)

the Jester said:


> ... to whine and cry that missing an update twice a year means that WotC has ruined your game, shot your dog and stolen your lunch.




Well if people could say that _and mean it_ about 4E itself being released on this very board I see no reason why they can't say it about a missed update...

/sarcasm off


OK seriously the missed update is disappointing as I was really looking forward to the Dark Sun stuff.  Is it fraud?  Of course not.  What nonsense.  

I would definitely recommend everyone who has a DDI account to email/write WotC customer service to find out what compensation, if any, subscribers can expect.  It _is_ still a missed update and deserving of some kind of recognition of the inconvenience of it.  Even if they offer nothing if they get a couple of thousand complaints it will hopefully send the message that we, as consumers, are watching and expecting to get the service we all pay for with the unspoken agreement that they may lose 1000s of paying customers if they fail to meet deadlines on a regular basis (and twice in the 18 months or so CB & AT have been around is not regular).


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## ourchair (Sep 16, 2010)

I've said it before I'll say it again:

My (entirely unfounded) suspicion is that there is a lot of project management strife that is (holding) back the digital tools. I don't mean personal wars, but just poor direction and improper resource allocation.

I doubt they even have a code team the size necessary to ensure that the tools can keep pace with the rules updates, let alone the structural changes introduced by Essentials' new builds and the new themes components introduced by Dark Sun.

So, I don't think it's a matter of blaming WotC or blaming the programming team so much as blaming the entire setup that makes parallel development of tools and new rules almost impossible.

Sure, books are worked out in advance and design changes are usually finalized months ahead of the printing/distribution schedule. But I doubt that's even enough for the programmers to keep pace, and they themselves probably make promises to the same departments that make promises to others, all of which, end up being broken.

Here's what it's probably like to work at the DDI Tools Team:



			
				ourchair said:
			
		

> "I want you five guys to work on the Character Visualizer? Can you do that while handling the updates for Adventure Tool and Character Builder?"
> 
> "Yeah, but we need a better system for inputting the data in..."
> 
> ...


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## AbdulAlhazred (Sep 16, 2010)

Truename said:


> Sorry to pick on you, CovertOps, but this armchair quarterbacking is driving me crazy. (It's not just you; your post just happened to be handy.) As a professional programmer and consultant specializing in team software development processes, I can tell you it's just not that simple.
> 
> YES, WotC should be able to meet their commitments. YES, there are certainly problems with the way they're approaching their software planning. NO, these problems are not unique to WoTC. NO, it's not a sign of management incompetence or miserliness. Without knowing exactly what's happening on the DDI team, there is no way to know what the problem is. The only thing that's certain is that the simplistic amateur-hour "solutions" on this thread won't fix it.
> 
> ...




I can second the hard to do part. Basically what you'd need to do it perfectly all the time is the equivalent of a CMM level 3 or higher organization. There are about 100 of those on the face of the earth and it costs something like a cool $50 million in consulting fees and just plain hard work to create one. 

This may be a grim message for all us 4e fans, but the truth is that for a bunch of people doing a complex customer facing application like CB or Compendium on a limited budget WotC probably hasn't done all that badly. They obviously made most of the classic mistakes, everyone does, but they have delivered some pretty decent products. So the grim message is basically there just isn't anywhere near enough money in D&D to fuel a world class dev team. 

I'd guess they're (hopefully) slowly learning, but even that is a rough row to hoe because you're constantly turning over people, management structures change, etc. Even if you pull off some really well done projects the same organization is likely to fail miserably on some later project. Software development is an exercise in controlled chaos, nobody really has it down. NASA doesn't have it down (trust me, I know). WotC? Doesn't and probably never will 100%. They'll PROBABLY get better over time though.


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## Ahrimon (Sep 16, 2010)

Don't get me wrong, I think it sucks.  I was really looking forward to playing with some of the new builds and options.  But DDI is more than just an update.  You still get full access to the compendium, a full character builder and dungeon and dragon magazines.  I do hope that they make it up to us in some way though.  I just don't think that they "owed" us this update.

Maybe it's all those years of playing wow.  I'm just too used to people having a coranary whenever something attached to their subscription get delayed.    The reaction over this was pleasently mild here.  I don't know if I want to look at the WotC boards...

Armchair programming:  It shouldn't be much more than data entry IF the CB was designed from the ground up with flexibility in mind.  I don't think they did that though.  I can't tell you how many times I've gone back to something I coded under a deadline and wanted to smack myself for not taking the time to do it right.


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## Mengu (Sep 16, 2010)

I think some people maybe overestimate the manpower at their disposal. From CB credits:



> Maintenance Team
> 
> Development
> Richard S. Robinson




It looks like for Launch they had three developers, but only one is credited for Maintenance releases. They also have 2 people for data, and 2 for Q/A (which are actually both helpful and somewhat impressive for this size operation, though I expect they are not full time). 

Of course it's possible the credits are wrong, or they may have shuffled around resources to add another dev, but at the end of the day, it's a pretty small operation, and in such an environment, with a pace of one maintenance release a month, there isn't much breathing room, so any overload will easily lead to delays. And sadly, as others mentioned, adding a developer or two doesn't mean you get the stuff done in half the time or a third of the time. Programming timelines are non-euclidean.


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## UngainlyTitan (Sep 16, 2010)

Mengu said:


> I think some people maybe overestimate the manpower at their disposal. From CB credits:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ok, that could be the explaination. Even if the apps are dell designed if the developer is out sick for a week that could cause significant delays. Two people for data is pretty tight also.
They have dumped out a lot of data over the last couple of months and if (as I suspect ) their data entry is purely manual and the data entry people are not fulltime then that could be the delay right there.

It is prefectly possible that the data entry people have been doing proof reading and stuff like that for the last month and have not had the time to do any data entry.

What they really need in to integrate their tools with the development process but that would be a fairly substancial project.


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## vagabundo (Sep 16, 2010)

They are getting a lot of money from DDI (how many thousands of subscribers are there at last count?) montly, the least they could do if fund the projects properly.

I do expect to get decent content from dragon and dungeon and I do expect them to build on the DDI tools and maintain them. If they are unable to do that they need to expand the DDI software team.

This is their flagship project and should be seen in that light.

I've been a little disappointed with the tools. I mean, they are good as they are, but after a few years I did think we would be further along with the software: I expected more tools and better interfaces, faster and with more flexibility, by now.

I'm still going to sub for a while. I've still some faith that they can pull off the digital initiative. But if we are in the same spot this time next year - same tools with the same issues - I would consider stopping my sub. Very reluctantly I have to say.


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## Kzach (Sep 16, 2010)

You know, I get that software development is hard, I've learned enough about it through personal study and courses to get at least an inkling of the difficulties.

I get that development costs money and that for improvements to be made they may have to increase the cost of DDI.

But I think both of these arguments are irrelevant to this debate.

Why?

Because there is an inherent contract entered into when buying something and when that something isn't provided, then as a consumer you have every right to be pissed off about it.

The fact of the matter is that WotC is selling a product and then not providing the full benefit of that product. If WotC increased their prices, then I would be able to make an informed decision as to whether or not I would purchase it. But this update cancellation has come out AFTER the fact. There was no warning about it. I couldn't make an informed decision. I bought the product in good faith and didn't receive what I paid for.

So whether or not providing the service is difficult or expensive has zero bearing on them promising to deliver it, and failing to. If they're finding it too difficult, then don't make the promise in the first place, and inform customers BEFORE they purchase the service. If they're finding it too expensive to produce, then up the cost to the consumer so that the consumer can judge its value BEFORE purchasing.

I let my sub renew just before the end of last month and the start of this month without knowing whether or not there would be an update. I did so because I had every reason to believe there would be an update as that is the inherent promise of the service. I now am not getting what I paid for, and people have the gall to tell me I'm whining and should give WotC some slack?

No.


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## Njall (Sep 16, 2010)

Kzach said:


> You know, I get that software development is hard, I've learned enough about it through personal study and courses to get at least an inkling of the difficulties.
> 
> I get that development costs money and that for improvements to be made they may have to increase the cost of DDI.
> 
> ...






			
				DDI EULA said:
			
		

> 7.  Updates and Patches.  Wizards may deploy or provide patches,  updates and modifications to the Software that must be installed for the  user to continue to use the Software. Wizards may update the Software  remotely, including without limitation updating the Software client  residing on the user’s machine, without the knowledge or consent of the  user, and you grant to Wizards your consent to deploy and apply such  patches, updates and modifications to the Software. *Notwithstanding the  foregoing, Wizards shall have no obligation to provide you with patches,  updates or modification to the Software.*




This is from the EULA for DDI. It's not hard to find, it took me 5 minutes. 
So, no, we're not entitled to a monthly update. 
Don't get me wrong, I'm also pissed off that we don't get a monthly update, and I think that if WotC extended active subscriptions by 1 month it would be a class act, but they're under no obligation to do so: if people don't read the EULA before signing it it's not WotC's fault, after all.


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## Ryujin (Sep 16, 2010)

Actually, by that EULA, we aren't entitled to ANY updates, but be realistic here. How many of us would have bought into the DDI, if it was never going to be updated?


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## Njall (Sep 16, 2010)

Ryujin said:


> Actually, by that EULA, we aren't entitled to ANY updates, but be realistic here. How many of us would have bought into the DDI, if it was never going to be updated?




Yes, and it's been updated pretty regularly for... what, 2 years now? 
Sure, without the updates the tools would lose a ton of appeal. This doesn't change the fact that WotC is under no obligation to update DDI monthly, so they haven't done anything wrong: delaying a patch is well within their rights. 
Now, I agree that updating the CB regularly is a smart decision, because it makes it a useful tool and increases the value of an active subscription; however, this doesn't change the fact that, according to the EULA ( that we've signed and should have read ), they don't have to provide a monthly update: it's just not part of the deal. 
We still have access to the latest patch released for the software (the one released in august ), to the compendium and the magazines, so saying that this month we "didn't get what we paid for" is just plain wrong. 

I'm as pissed off as anyone else, but let's face it: we're the ones claiming that someone else didn't keep their end of the bargain when the fact that the CB might not be updated every month was made clear from the start.


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## avin (Sep 16, 2010)

Njall said:


> This is from the EULA for DDI. It's not hard to find, it took me 5 minutes.
> So, no, we're not entitled to a monthly update.
> Don't get me wrong, I'm also pissed off that we don't get a monthly update, and I think that if WotC extended active subscriptions by 1 month it would be a class act, but they're under no obligation to do so: if people don't read the EULA before signing it it's not WotC's fault, after all.




Well, after my yearly subscription ends, I won't be giving Wotc a monthly payment update.


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## Njall (Sep 16, 2010)

avin said:


> Well, after my yearly subscription ends, I won't be giving Wotc a monthly payment update.




I'm not saying you should. 
I'm just saying that if we claim that we didn't get something we paid for, we're wrong.


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## Colmarr (Sep 16, 2010)

Has this thread, about the absence of an update, _really_ been going on for 6 pages?


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## avin (Sep 16, 2010)

Njall said:


> I'm not saying you should.
> I'm just saying that if we claim that we didn't get something we paid for, we're wrong.




Nah, it's not just because of it... I have been begging for templates in MB since forever in Wotc forums, Dungeon and Dragon articles are falling hard (IMO), I've cancelled the few essentials (4.5!) I was going to buy... Dark Sun is the last 4E book I'm probably going to buy, unless a solid fluffed book of monsters is released.

While I had some good fun from 4E, I think this edition is a mess compared to 3.0/3.5.

My "Dead Kings" 4E campaign is dead, since two of players are involved in other stuff and mostly can't play on saturdays.

I'm sticking to my Planescape game, eventually gonna start a 4E Dark Sun campaign (by the time the update should be in) and then stick only to GURPS and other systems, for a change.

I may be wrong but I'm getting the feeling that 5E is coming sooner than we expected...


----------



## avin (Sep 16, 2010)

Colmarr said:


> Has this thread, about the absence of an update, _really_ been going on for 6 pages?




Yes.

Some people were eagerly waiting this update for starting their Dark Sun campaigns.


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## Shazman (Sep 16, 2010)

knifie_sp00nie said:


> For all the complainers, how would you like it if several hundred people started screaming at you every time something went wrong at your job? What jobs do you have where everything runs perfectly and no one is ever sick or management doesn't meddle so projects never get delayed? Maybe you should set up a forum discussing your job so I can post about how incompetent you are every time you slip up or are the victim of outside circumstances.
> 
> If you've ever worked in software development you've lived through what's going on at WotC many times. The character builder seems impressively flexible, but adding exceptions and new behaviors will usually hit snags you didn't anticipate. Then there's testing. If a release went out with major bugs they'd get three times the amount of grief they are getting now.
> 
> ...




There may be no intent before the fact, but if they take your money for September's subscription and you don't receive what you paid for, they had better attempt to make things right.  Maybe its not fraud, but it is wrong to not give someone what they paid for.  If I took a bunch of people's money for a product, and they didn't receive it, wouldn't I be charged with fraud even if I originally intended to supply the product?  The fact is people paid for something, and they didn't get it.  Paying cusotmers deserve a bit more than "we're sorry" when they don't get what they paid for.  WotC already has a reputation for poor customers relations, and giving ddi customers refunds or a free month's subscription would go a long way towards smoothing things over.

I din't realize that WotC has a clause that says that we aren't entiltle to an update.  It still bites that they aren't giving an update.  It seems they are begging their customers to boycott them.


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## Scribble (Sep 16, 2010)

As a monthly customer I'm disappointed there is no character builder update this month. I'm not angry though as they have a sufficient reason. 

If it happened multiple times when they had no large system updates to accompany it, then I would be angry. 

Since this is the second time it has happened though, I think they should probably take that into account for the next big update.


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## mudbunny (Sep 16, 2010)

For what it's worth, WotC *is* aware of the desire for some form of reimbursement/compensation for the delays.

As soon as I find out more, I will update here.


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## Pickles JG (Sep 16, 2010)

Shazman said:


> I din't realize that WotC has a clause that says that we aren't entiltle to an update. It still bites that they aren't giving an update. It seems they are begging their customers to boycott them.




So vote with your feet.

There is a lot of nose cutting off to spite faces going on here. Afterall the reason everyone is so disappointed is because the CB is such a useful tool in the first place.

WoTC have not handled this super well. It would have been nice if they had figured out faster they could not do the update on time then got a "quick win" data update in - Psionic Power perhaps.  However have a sense of proportion - they do not do it just to annoy their customers.


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## Piratecat (Sep 16, 2010)

Colmarr said:


> Has this thread, about the absence of an update, _really_ been going on for 6 pages?



Well, to be fair, it's not like we can talk about the update.


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## Holy Bovine (Sep 16, 2010)

Here`s the email I just sent to Customer Service over at WotC;


Like many D&DI subscribers I was deeply disappointed with the announcement yesterday that there would be no update to the Character Builder or Adventure Tools programs this month. My groups and I get a lot of use out of these programs and were even starting a Dark Sun game this month which is now on hold until October. I was hoping that there would be some kind of compensation to subscribers for the inconvenience of this missed update. Thank you for your time and consideration.


I really encourage everyone to do something similar.  Companies like WotC do respond to this kind of thing.


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## P1NBACK (Sep 16, 2010)

Holy Bovine said:


> I really encourage everyone to do something similar.  Companies like WotC do respond to this kind of thing.




I emailed them as soon as I heard about the lack of update this month. 

_I'm a D&D Insider and have been since the get-go. It's recently come to my attention that the monthly scheduled update for the character builder and adventure tools isn't going to happen this month. Well, considering that I'm a yearly subscriber, I can't _not_ pay for this month, so I'd like to request a partial reimbursement for September (I'm still getting the magazines, so I believe that is worth something). 

If this isn't the correct channels to go through, please point me in the right direction. 
_


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## Bagpuss (Sep 16, 2010)

Ryujin said:


> I guess I'm the odd man out then. I'd rather that they held off so that I get the new content 2 weeks earlier than I would otherwise receive it. Sure, I'd like to have it now, but that wasn't going to happen anyway.




Except I'm not getting the Dark Sun or Psionic Power two weeks early. I was planning on running a Dark Sun Campaign, instead I'm going to run Dark Heresy, it's only one word difference I'm pretty sure my players won't notice.


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## mudbunny (Sep 16, 2010)

FWIW, a poster on the WotC forums has indicated that CS will be refunding him/her for september.

I don't know what type of subscription plan he is on (monthly, 3-monthly or yearly), so YMMV.


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## ourchair (Sep 16, 2010)

Njall said:


> This is from the EULA for DDI. It's not hard to find, it took me 5 minutes.
> So, no, we're not entitled to a monthly update.
> Don't get me wrong, I'm also pissed off that we don't get a monthly update, and I think that if WotC extended active subscriptions by 1 month it would be a class act, but they're under no obligation to do so: if people don't read the EULA before signing it it's not WotC's fault, after all.



Almost every Software EULA is written to be at cross purposes to what is written on software packaging, the print advertising and the marketing statement.

Not that I'm disagreeing, I'm just saying that since the 20th century, EULAs have consistently been written to say, "We promise nothing!"


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## catsclaw227 (Sep 16, 2010)

The CB/AT update delays suck, but I really don't think it's that big of a deal.  

I am a project manager and software developer and I understand the kinds of delays they are likely experiencing, especially considering the amount of staff they have allocated to the electronic tools.   So I can sympathize. 

For me, though, DDI is more than just the monthly data updates.  The access to the compendium and the online articles are just as valuable, and the current datasets for CB and AT are still pretty damn full of information and are far from unusable.

There have been, what.... maybe 2 or 3 delays in data updates in 2 years?  That's pretty damn impressive for ANY software development company who's product has a steady schedule of updates, especially monthly updates.

When our medical imaging software updates didn't come as frequently as we liked, Siemens and GE Medical both told us to just deal with it.  And we paid a million dollars for those software packages.

WOTC has been pretty damn efficient with this software package and the required updates.  Because they have some seemingly major architectural changes and additions to the software, we really should have expected a hiccup or delay.  I would rather they get it right than early.

And, aren't the Essentials updates not due until October anyway?  So all the fracas is about DS and Psionic Power, mostly, right?

I just can't get all that upset about it.  It's easy to make 1st level characters in 4e, even with just paper and pencil!  Why should campaigns be delayed?  Are we really that dependent upon the CB and Monster tools?


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## P1NBACK (Sep 16, 2010)

catsclaw227 said:


> WOTC has been pretty damn efficient with this software package and the required updates.  Because they have some seemingly major architectural changes and additions to the software, we really should have expected a hiccup or delay.  I would rather they get it right than early.




A month or two ago there was a month where there was literally a tiny update with a few feats from Dragon. No book updates, nothing. They could have used this time to go ahead and start getting prepared for Essentials/Dark Sun. Instead, no. 

My subscription is for the updates. That's what I'm paying for. Granted, I get the magazines on top of that, but _I'm not subscribing for those_... 

So. No update, no subscription. It just so happens I'm on an annual subscription package. If this becomes the norm (some months skipped with no update even though there are books/content released in print), then I'll just cancel my subscription. 

I don't care about the EULA. In fact, here's my EULA (it's pretty simple): give me the content I want when I pay for it, or you lose me as a customer.


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## Neonchameleon (Sep 16, 2010)

P1NBACK said:


> A month or two ago there was a month where there was literally a tiny update with a few feats from Dragon. No book updates, nothing. They could have used this time to go ahead and start getting prepared for Essentials/Dark Sun. Instead, no.
> 
> My subscription is for the updates. That's what I'm paying for. Granted, I get the magazines on top of that, but _I'm not subscribing for those_...
> 
> ...



How do you know they didn't use it to start getting ready? The forthcoming two character builder updates are probably the biggest two since the character builder has been released. 

Themes, if the character builder is as clunky as it sometimes looks, are _huge_. It's an entire new set of powers that break the structure of the existing power/class combinations and can be added to any class. This isn't just adding new content, it's rewiring a large part of the character builder and adding modules that cut across the modular design. (It's bigger than PHB3 psionics because themes can be applied to _every_ character class and mustn't break with any of them; psionic multiclass powers work as normal encounter powers). 

And then we come to Essentials. Which is actually probably smaller than themes. But that doesn't mean that you can just plug extra numbers into the database to get the new Martial classes. And they should be easy to separate out from non-essentials.

Frankly I'd have been amazed if this month's update was released even to the revised time of mid-month.

Edit: and if I know managers, they will have allocated more time to be ready for Essentials than Dark Sun.


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## P1NBACK (Sep 16, 2010)

Neonchameleon said:


> How do you know they didn't use it to start getting ready? The forthcoming two character builder updates are probably the biggest two since the character builder has been released.




Because it's not done. That's how I know. 

If they've been working on this update for months, and they're pushing it back another month, how will we have any assurance it'll _ever _be done? 

Anyways, honestly, I don't CARE why it isn't done. I know it isn't done. I know I got charged for this month. I know I don't want to pay for something that didn't happen. End of story. 

It's fine if WotC doesn't reimburse me. They are legally backed. But, guess what? They lose me as a customer. So, it's a simple matter of customer service. If I go into a restaurant, and order a meal, and it takes an hour to get to the table, they aren't legally obliged to refund my ticket or give me some compensation. But, it certainly is a matter of customer service. If they don't want to do that, fine. I just won't go back to that restaurant.


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## Ryujin (Sep 16, 2010)

Njall said:


> I'm as pissed off as anyone else, but let's face it: we're the ones claiming that someone else didn't keep their end of the bargain when the fact that the CB might not be updated every month was made clear from the start.




You seem to be lumping me in with the group that is calling for refunds, etc.. I'm not in that group. As I said previously I'm now _annoyed _that the update won't be coming at all, whereas the delay didn't bother me at all.


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## Aegeri (Sep 16, 2010)

I am not angry about Wizards failing to provide an update - I am merely disappointed. I am annoyed that my monies this month isn't going to what I need most - especially for my IRL game in terms of the CB (as they don't get the books like I do). I don't have to pay monthly to not get what I want, I can pay once every 2-3 months if Wizards is going to do this and get the same overall benefit. I pay monthly for monthly updates: Not for bi-monthly and similar. 

Given how much they are slipping on the publishing of things, this is not a good sign for the future.


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## Jhaelen (Sep 16, 2010)

P1NBACK said:


> My subscription is for the updates. That's what I'm paying for. Granted, I get the magazines on top of that, but _I'm not subscribing for those_...



Of course you are! Your subscription isn't 'special' in any way. Currently, there's only one kind of subscription. It's all or nothing.


P1NBACK said:


> I don't care about the EULA. In fact, here's my EULA (it's pretty simple): give me the content I want when I pay for it, or you lose me as a customer.



Well, I'd love to comment on that the way it deserves, but it would probably result in an admin taking action, so I'll refrain, except for this bit of insight from my job experience:

Sometimes, it's ultimately better for a company to lose a certain kind of customers.


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## mudbunny (Sep 16, 2010)

mudbunny said:


> FWIW, a poster on the WotC forums has indicated that CS will be refunding him/her for september.
> 
> I don't know what type of subscription plan he is on (monthly, 3-monthly or yearly), so YMMV.





And another one.


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## P1NBACK (Sep 16, 2010)

Jhaelen said:


> Of course you are! Your subscription isn't 'special' in any way.




Sure it is. It's special to me, because it's my money I'm paying. 



Jhaelen said:


> Sometimes, it's ultimately better for a company to lose a certain kind of customers.




You think so? A certain kind of customer? Like, say one who's been an annual subscriber since the beginning of D&D Insider? You know, the dedicated kind. 

Gimme a break.


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## Piratecat (Sep 16, 2010)

Enough with the snark, guys. Jhaelen, that insult wasn't okay and you know it. Not again, please. It's okay to disagree with someone without needing to take a personal shot at them.


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## Zaran (Sep 16, 2010)

I think they should hire more people. They obviously need the manpower. They can even use not being able to provide an update as an excuse to the guy in charge of hiring.

I would like to say that I didn't get that email saying the update isn't coming. Maybe they are mad at me for cancelling autorenew. I'm not raging that they will not be doing an update but I am disappointed yet again with the quality and quanity of work that has been coming from DDI.


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## mudbunny (Sep 16, 2010)

Zaran said:


> I would like to say that I didn't get that email saying the update isn't coming.  Maybe they are mad at me for cancelling autorenew.    I'm not raging be they will not be doing an update but I am disappointed yet again with the quality and quanity of work that has been coming from DDI.




Silly question (and not trying to be patronizing), but do you have the settings right to get them to send you emails? Some people who thought they had set them to "yes, send email" actually had them at no.

In any case, WotC *is* aware that some people who had it set to yes didn't get the emails, and they are trying to figure out why and what they can do to overcome it.

**edit to add - Also, some people have found their Spam filters eating the emails.**


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## Njall (Sep 16, 2010)

Ryujin said:


> You seem to be lumping me in with the group that is calling for refunds, etc.. I'm not in that group. As I said previously I'm now _annoyed _that the update won't be coming at all, whereas the delay didn't bother me at all.




Actually, I'm lumping _myself_ with the group that isn't happy about the lack of an update 
Still, I'm not going to complain loudly about something that I'm not entitled to. 
As I said, they said upfront ( in the EULA... and whether you guys like it or not, that's what they're going to stick to: they're not selling you the updates, they're selling you access to DDI, the updates are pretty much a free perk that comes with DDI. It doesn't matter that it's the main selling point for you, it's not what WotC is selling, and they were pretty upfront about it ) that they might screw up sooner or later, they told us that this month's scheduled update would have been delayed, and now they told us in advance that the update was cancelled. 
Sometimes, things go wrong in software development. What do you expect, that they come begging us not to unsubscribe because they ended up skipping a monthly update ( something that was probably taken in account when they wrote the EULA that we signed and, hopefully, read )? 

@ Ourchair: I'm aware that most EULAs amount to "we promise nothing". On the other hand, if I stipulate some kind of agreement with someone else, and I add "I promise nothing about delivering X each month, though...", and the other part agrees, I expect that he's not going to be mad at me if I'm not able to to deliver whatever X may be for one month. YMMV, obviously. 

Would it be nice if WotC came up with some sort of compensation? Sure, and I think it would display good will and good business sense. 
Do I think that they *have to* provide some kind of compensation because they somehow tricked me into subscribing this month? Nope, I don't think so.


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## P1NBACK (Sep 16, 2010)

Njall said:


> ...and the other part agrees, I expect that he's not going to be mad at me if I'm not able to to deliver whatever X may be for one month. YMMV, obviously...




What's all this "angry" and "mad" talk? I don't get it. No one is mad or angry. We just don't want to pay for something we aren't getting. 

If the EULA says, "We don't have to update the Character Builder." Fine. 

But, guess what? No update. No $$$. This kind of shenanigans is going to make me decide to not renew my annual subscription (going since the beginning) and start the method of updating once a year or whatever for $10. Now, what do you think the best course for WotC is? Try to keep the annual subscribers shelling out $$$ in advance for an entire year or not? 

It's not about being mad or angry. It's about paying for something that was scheduled to happen and didn't. It's about annual subscribers (or people who subscribed for September expecting an update for Dark Sun) getting screwed. 

It's about customer service and timely product.


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## Thaumaturge (Sep 16, 2010)

I cannot help but wonder if these types of delays will affect D&D development going forward.  Will the developers be restricted to design elements that play nicely with the CB and MB?  I hope not, but I wonder., especially if they have to grant thousands of one month subscription credits.  Thoughts?

Thaumaturge.


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## Njall (Sep 16, 2010)

P1NBACK said:


> What's all this "angry" and "mad" talk? I don't get it. No one is mad or angry. We just don't want to pay for something we aren't getting.
> 
> If the EULA says, "We don't have to update the Character Builder." Fine.
> 
> ...




If you aren't angry or upset, then that part of my post wasn't aimed at you, isn't it obvious? 
On the other hand, I fail to see how anyone got "screwed", considering that, as noted, a monthly update wasn't guaranteed when you subscribed.


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## knifie_sp00nie (Sep 16, 2010)

P1NBACK said:


> But, guess what? No update. No $$$. This kind of shenanigans is going to make me decide to not renew my annual subscription (going since the beginning) and start the method of updating once a year or whatever for $10. Now, what do you think the best course for WotC is? Try to keep the annual subscribers shelling out $$$ in advance for an entire year or not?




Yearly subscription. All this ire over SIX DOLLARS? 

Maybe you have other reasons to not renew, like the magazine content. Your post is just an example to illustrate scale.

DDI is still up and fully functional. That includes the compendium, magazines, art galleries, builder applications, and whatever else I've missed. You're getting something for that $6.00 this month. Bandwidth and servers aren't free. Those customer service reps taking complaints aren't free. All the writers that made the content aren't free.

And they are really generous with that content. Not many other subscription services let you keep the content after the fact. There's very few software programs that allow more than one instance to be installed. DDI gives you five and doesn't phone home to make sure you're paid up before you can use the program.

Vote with your wallet. I will too if I feel that DDI has stopped being worth the cost. Six bucks is a crappy fast food value meal or a fancy coffee. Is it really worth this much frustration? The effects of the stress alone have already reduced your life expectancy.


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## P1NBACK (Sep 16, 2010)

Njall said:


> If you aren't angry or upset, then that part of my post wasn't aimed at you, isn't it obvious?




I guess I'm just not seeing anyone here "angry". 



Njall said:


> On the other hand, I fail to see how anyone got "screwed", considering that, as noted, a monthly update wasn't guaranteed when you subscribed.




Here's how I got screwed: 

I subscribed annually. I paid for September. I don't get an update. I lose out on the money I had going for the update. 

A monthly subscriber, they can decide not to update for September, not pay for it. They don't lose anything. 

So, the annual subscribers, the loyal customers, they are getting shafted compared to someone how just subscribes every couple of months or whatever... 

I guess I should cancel my annual subscription and update whenever I see an update actually come out.


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## P1NBACK (Sep 16, 2010)

knifie_sp00nie said:


> Yearly subscription. All this ire over SIX DOLLARS?
> 
> Maybe you have other reasons to not renew, like the magazine content. Your post is just an example to illustrate scale.
> 
> ...




Actually, less than $6. I asked for a _partial _refund. 

I'm not stressed. *shrug* I just want my money back. It's the principle of the matter.


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## Njall (Sep 16, 2010)

P1NBACK said:


> I guess I'm just not seeing anyone here "angry".
> 
> 
> 
> ...





That's precisely the point: you didn't pay _for the update_, you paid for access to DDI. The monthly update may or may not happen (or, at least, it's what it's written in the EULA you signed). 
In other words, while you can reasonably expect a monthly update, it's not a given that they'll issue a patch every month. That's why you didn't get screwed: your claims are based on the false premise that you bought the update and you didn't get it, while you didn't pay for the update in the first place (or, at least, that's what the EULA said). 
You paid for access to the DDI tools and the magazines, which you got.


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## P1NBACK (Sep 16, 2010)

Njall said:


> That's precisely the point: you didn't pay _for the update_, you paid for access to DDI.




I also don't pay for a waiter to bring me new beer when my glass gets emptied. I also don't pay for my steak to be make it there while it's still hot. I also don't pay for the waiter to smile and be friendly to me and help me with my order. 

Yet, those are all things I expect when I go to restaurant. Hmmm. Are they obligated to do that? Nah. Of course not. 

Will I go back to that restaurant if my steak comes out cold, waiter ignores my table, etc...? Nah. Of course not. 

I'll still pay for my meal. And, I'll still be polite myself. I might mention something to the manager in hopes this doesn't happen to future customers. But, I'm definitely not going to be a customer anymore.


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## Njall (Sep 16, 2010)

P1NBACK said:


> I also don't pay for a waiter to bring me new beer when my glass gets emptied. I also don't pay for my steak to be make it there while it's still hot. I also don't pay for the waiter to smile and be friendly to me and help me with my order.
> 
> Yet, those are all things I expect when I go to restaurant. Hmmm. Are they obligated to do that? Nah. Of course not.
> 
> ...




Except that, in this case, you were told in advance that the waiter might not smile at you and might not help you with your order. And you said you were ok with it ( when you signed the EULA ).


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## P1NBACK (Sep 16, 2010)

Njall said:


> Except that, in this case, you were told in advance that the waiter might not smile at you and might not help you with your order. And you said you were ok with it ( when you signed the EULA ).




No. I said WotC isn't obligated to update. If a new book comes out, I still expect them to. If there were no new content to be updated, I wouldn't expect an update. 

When I go to a restaurant (or any other service based industry), they're not obligated, I still expect them to. 

But, like I said earlier. This is a good way to re-evaluate my annual subscription to D&D Insider. I'm not angry. I just know now not to be an annual subscriber.


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## The Human Target (Sep 16, 2010)

Not to interrupt the slap fight, but my current problem with DDI is that Adventure Tools won't update (its says the update server is down) and it keeps crashing so I'm going to have to reinstall it.


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## Njall (Sep 16, 2010)

P1NBACK said:


> No. I said WotC isn't obligated to update. If a new book comes out, I still expect them to. If there were no new content to be updated, I wouldn't expect an update.
> 
> When I go to a restaurant (or any other service based industry), they're not obligated, I still expect them to.




And why exactly do you expect them to, when they said in advance that they may or may not? Again, I hate to bring up the EULA every other post, but it never mentioned new books. What it basically said was "we'll update the DDI tools whenever we see fit".
That's why I disagree with you, even if I'd like to see some sort of compensation as well.


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## avin (Sep 16, 2010)

Njall said:


> Except that, in this case, you were told in advance that the waiter might not smile at you and might not help you with your order. And you said you were ok with it ( when you signed the EULA ).




In this case, I'm saying to the waiter this is the last beer I'll drink on Wotc for a while.

No angry, no QQ, I'm just gonna find another bar who can keep the beer coming. May be back, maybe not. Life moves on.


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## P1NBACK (Sep 16, 2010)

Njall said:


> And why exactly do you expect them to, when they said in advance that they may or may not? Again, I hate to bring up the EULA every other post, but it never mentioned new books. What it basically said was "we'll update the DDI tools whenever we see fit".
> That's why I disagree with you, even if I'd like to see some sort of compensation as well.




Well, apparently WotC doesn't agree with you (or the EULA I guess). They just refunded my month's worth of subscription. 

Good . This goes to show good faith on the part of WotC and I'll *happily keep my annual subscription going* now. Great customer service and a classy decision by WotC.


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## Njall (Sep 16, 2010)

P1NBACK said:


> Well, apparently WotC doesn't agree with you (or the EULA I guess). They just refunded my month's worth of subscription.
> 
> Good . This goes to show good faith on the part of WotC and I'll *happily keep my annual subscription going* now. Great customer service and a classy decision by WotC.




As I said before, I think that's a good business decision and a sign of good will, so I'm glad for you


----------



## Stumblewyk (Sep 16, 2010)

P1NBACK said:


> I also don't pay for a waiter to bring me new beer when my glass gets emptied. I also don't pay for my steak to be make it there while it's still hot. I also don't pay for the waiter to smile and be friendly to me and help me with my order.
> 
> Yet, those are all things I expect when I go to restaurant. Hmmm. Are they obligated to do that? Nah. Of course not.
> 
> ...




To be completely fair, the restaurant analogy just doesn't fly.  It only works if you look at it like an all-you-can eat buffet where you pay one price for everything when you walk in the door.

In this case, you paid $6.00 on this trip.  As part of the deal, you're entitled to EVERYTHING in the store (DDI Content) for that $6.00.  The deal is just that whatever the kitchen makes is what you can get - sure, you might LOVE steak, but they just don't have steak right now.  You'll have to make due with the chicken and a bowl of soup.

They're not obligated to provide you with steak.  But they are obligated to provide you with food.  They've done that - you can still get your Dungeon and Dragon magazines, you've still got access to the Compendium.  Sure it's not the steak you hoped for, but they held up their end of the bargain by having food available on the buffet table.

Edit: I see you got your refund, P1NBACK, as have others.  Good for you, and good on Wizards, but I suspect it has more to do with the squeaky wheel getting the grease than any kind of feelings of guilt that WotC owes you anything. =/


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## P1NBACK (Sep 16, 2010)

Njall said:


> As I said before, I think that's a good business decision and a sign of good will, so I'm glad for you




Thanks.


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## jelmore (Sep 16, 2010)

im_robertb said:


> Just want to echo this. Especially for creating new characters, things like the changes to racial ability scores are important. Still deciding if I just want to tell people about the changes or delay starting my KotS campaign a month.




If they want to take the choice not offered by default (i.e., a dwarf who wants to do +2 STR instead of +2 WIS), just have them adjust the scores by hand. That's how I made my last character.


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## Ryujin (Sep 16, 2010)

Stumblewyk said:


> To be completely fair, the restaurant analogy just doesn't fly.  It only works if you look at it like an all-you-can eat buffet where you pay one price for everything when you walk in the door.
> 
> In this case, you paid $6.00 on this trip.  As part of the deal, you're entitled to EVERYTHING in the store (DDI Content) for that $6.00.  The deal is just that whatever the kitchen makes is what you can get - sure, you might LOVE steak, but they just don't have steak right now.  You'll have to make due with the chicken and a bowl of soup.
> 
> ...




I would say that a better analogy exists; cable TV. Years back, when I wanted to get a single channel, I had to buy a package of three channels. I didn't want the other channels, never even watched them once, but it was a requirement. 

A couple of years later the cable provider unilaterally chose to preempt the one station that I wanted, but not the others, for NFL Football. There was no consultation and little prior notice that this would occur. When I complained they offered me, by way of compensation, one third of the additional fee for that channel package.

There's legally right, then there's morally right.


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## Mapache (Sep 16, 2010)

Njall said:


> And why exactly do you expect them to, when they said in advance that they may or may not? Again, I hate to bring up the EULA every other post, but it never mentioned new books. What it basically said was "we'll update the DDI tools whenever we see fit".




You are ignoring the actual middle ground between "we'll update whenever we feel like it" and "we absolutely, positively guarantee to update every month like clockwork".  The reality is that WotC stated an intent to update every month, with legal language stating that this is not, in fact, an ironclad contract and that you do not have a legal right to sue them if they happen not to provide an update.  People are perfectly justified in feeling irritated over not receiving part of the service which they were told they would usually get, even though it was not a legally-binding contract.


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## JoeGKushner (Sep 16, 2010)

Njall said:


> And why exactly do you expect them to, when they said in advance that they may or may not? Again, I hate to bring up the EULA every other post, but it never mentioned new books. What it basically said was "we'll update the DDI tools whenever we see fit".
> That's why I disagree with you, even if I'd like to see some sort of compensation as well.




Because its implied that they will updated it every month.

Do you see the difference?


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## Njall (Sep 16, 2010)

JoeGKushner said:


> Because its implied that they will updated it every month.
> 
> Do you see the difference?




The only reason it's implied is that they did update it every month 'till now. 
So if they provided a crappier service in the last 2 years, like updates that were 6 months away from each other or if they just updated whenever they felt like, people would not complain now? 
It doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but if you say so...
Anyway, since it seems that they decided to refund whomever subscribed for september, I don't think discussing the matter further will do any good.


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## Mika (Sep 16, 2010)

P1NBACK said:


> I guess I'm just not seeing anyone here "angry".
> 
> 
> 
> ...





If they are able to get back on track, then your lesser value September DDI access will be compensated for by extremely valuable October access -- I would count that as a wash.

If they make a habit of the delays, then obviously they will start losing DDI customers fast.


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## JoeGKushner (Sep 16, 2010)

Video Introduction...when speaking about the Character Builder "with access to every book and online article."

That's well implied. If it's no longer valid or useful, yank that video.

Several times mentioned "every option".

Especially when compared to "paging through your books." in talking about how quick it is.

And let's be honest here, how many people would subscribe on a yearly basis if it wasn't implied that it would be updated monthly. Point of doing so unless absuridly cheap? Probably not high.

The lawyer talk is just that, to prevent someone from suing them for breech of contract.


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## Aegeri (Sep 16, 2010)

Jhaelen said:


> Of course you are! Your subscription isn't 'special' in any way. Currently, there's only one kind of subscription. It's all or nothing.




This isn't exactly a legitimate defense. I run three games of 4E but I don't play it (ironic I know) so the player material is mostly something I look at for designing my own stuff. Given that much of what is published in Dragon lately is terribad, that's not much to go on. Dungeon lately has been a travesty, with the exception of the excellent Eberron and Dark Sun articles this month the past 3-4 months have been awful. Where are my Demonomicon articles? Articles on various nefarious Gods? Even the maps are going downhill as they are either covered in word vomit or they're dungeon tiles based.

So I really need the tools to make it feel like my $10ish NZ a month is going to a good cause. They are invaluable in my IRL game and some of my players are waiting on content in there to make their characters. What am I do to, tell them they can't retrain and punish them for the fact Wizards delayed the tools? Or allow them to make a character that next week is going to be entirely different once they actually can get all the material? Again, these players don't have the books themselves - if it isn't in the CB it doesn't exist for them (they make the characters on my laptop so I have a copy of their mans when making the game too!).



> Sometimes, it's ultimately better for a company to lose a certain kind of customers.



This is totally unfair to P1NBACK and indeed anyone else who complains about this. We aren't entitled to updates and that is absolutely true. But we are entitled to make it known we aren't happy about things being delayed. I'm hardly one to run riot out the front of WotC with a placard and yelling "DEATH TO MIKE MEARLS [and Capitalism]", as I'm a pretty ardent supporter of Wizards and all things 4E related. But there is a point that even I have to say that I'm disappointed, especially when I don't feel I'm getting fair value out of either magazine.


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## MarkB (Sep 16, 2010)

Njall said:


> The only reason it's implied is that they did update it every month 'till now.
> So if they provided a crappier service in the last 2 years, like updates that were 6 months away from each other or if they just updated whenever they felt like, people would not complain now?
> It doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but if you say so...




Sounds right to me.

Whatever the EULA says about obligations, whatever WotC say about what makes up the core of a DDI subscription in their minds, the fact is that the _reason_ many people subscribe to the service is because of the software tools and updates that were being provided. However much WotC may have covered themselves legally, those services are the reason why people pay out their subscription money every month, and when they don't get the services they are paying that money to receive, it's going to cause upset.

Fortunately, WotC seem to have recognised that fact, and are compensating customers accordingly, rather than falling back upon legal obligations. This is laudable, and much appreciated.


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## Aegeri (Sep 16, 2010)

I've not asked for a refund myself. I just want them to know I am annoyed with them and that is sufficient for now.


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## Shazman (Sep 17, 2010)

Njall said:


> Actually, I'm lumping _myself_ with the group that isn't happy about the lack of an update
> Still, I'm not going to complain loudly about something that I'm not entitled to.
> As I said, they said upfront ( in the EULA... and whether you guys like it or not, that's what they're going to stick to: they're not selling you the updates, they're selling you access to DDI, the updates are pretty much a free perk that comes with DDI. It doesn't matter that it's the main selling point for you, it's not what WotC is selling, and they were pretty upfront about it ) that they might screw up sooner or later, they told us that this month's scheduled update would have been delayed, and now they told us in advance that the update was cancelled.
> Sometimes, things go wrong in software development. What do you expect, that they come begging us not to unsubscribe because they ended up skipping a monthly update ( something that was probably taken in account when they wrote the EULA that we signed and, hopefully, read )?
> ...




Quite frankly, if you have to go looking for the EULA, then it isn't really upfront.  It's hidden away so they can point to it, but the fact that most of us weren't aware of it shows how completely not upfront it was.  If it was there right when you opened up the CB or in the link to download it, then it would be upfront.


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## Obryn (Sep 17, 2010)

I was really hoping for an update next week, seeing as my Dark Sun game is starting next Sunday.  On the upside, this will let us hone our pencil & paper character-making skills!  I mean, it's _level 1 characters_ - it's not tough except for writing out all the power cards.

-O


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Sep 17, 2010)

I just can't disappointed or angry about a delayed update if it is delayed because they are adding a ton of new stuff for the next update. 

Okay, maybe a little disappointed. But less about them but that the universe forces useless stuff like "energy conversation" and so on us so that we can't create stuff out of thin air when we want it. Meh on the universe.


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## vagabundo (Sep 17, 2010)

When is the update now? I though it was the 21th now.


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## GuJiaXian (Sep 17, 2010)

vagabundo said:


> When is the update now? I though it was the 21th now.




Early October now, according to WotC's vague assurances.


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## P1NBACK (Sep 17, 2010)

GuJiaXian said:


> Early October now, according to WotC's vague assurances.




And, early October could mean anything from Oct. 1 to Oct. 15th I guess.


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## GuJiaXian (Sep 17, 2010)

P1NBACK said:


> And, early October could mean anything from Oct. 1 to Oct. 15th I guess.




At this point I'm wondering if they don't mean early October 2011.

[/hyperbole]


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## P1NBACK (Sep 17, 2010)

GuJiaXian said:


> At this point I'm wondering if they don't mean early October 2011.
> 
> [/hyperbole]




Yeah. I understand your sarcasm, but I think WotC has realized now what pushing back these updates means to their business plan: losing money. 

There are tons of people who are getting refunds right now because of their dissatisfaction with this push back. I think WotC will hopefully learn their lesson and make sure the updates get out on time. Money talks.


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## Ketjak (Sep 17, 2010)

"Tons?"


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## P1NBACK (Sep 17, 2010)

Ketjak said:


> "Tons?"




Yeah. Literally. Tons. I weighed them. It doesn't take many D&D customers to reach "tons".


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## DEFCON 1 (Sep 17, 2010)

In the end, it really comes down to this...

WotC realizes that because of the good work they've done most months up to this point, that their customers expect certain things.  Since they weren't able to reach that expectation, they're granting refunds to those people who ask for them.  This is the same thing restaurants, movie theaters, and other places of business do... give refunds (either partial or full) to those who ask for them.  They aren't going to _offer_ them to every single person who was affected, because that just sets a precedent for massive problems down the line.  But if you're a squeaky wheel, you'll get some grease.

Most people on these boards realize that any product they purchase will occasionally not come out or work as advertised 100 percent of the time.  Sometimes the box is missing a couple screws, sometimes the steak was a bit undercooked, sometimes the Character Builder isn't released on schedule.  They then have a few options based upon who they are, and how bothered they truly are about it.  They include:

- writing to WotC customer service to complain and ask for a refund

Those who have done this seemingly have started receiving refunds.

- writing on boards such as this to say they are annoyed with it, but it's not such a big deal in the grand scheme of things, considering how much WotC gets right most of the time

Those who have done this are the ones here telling folks to just chill out, or the ones who don't bother writing in this thread because they realize it's not important.

- writing on boards such as this to say that if something isn't done, they will cancel their subscription, or be lost as a customer

Those that have done this are in a tight spot.  Because complaining here won't get 'something done'.  The Builder won't get updated any faster, and they won't receive any refund.  Their only decision is to whether or not go through with their idea of actually cancelling their subscription.

And that's where they're going to run into problems, because for many of them, they're already paid up through however many months, and by the time it comes to re-up and they choose not to... this snafu will have been many months in the past and WotC won't know it was _this_ incident that caused this cancellation.  So the poster's desires end up being for naught.

As a result, this is why many folks are countering these claims by saying that folks are just 'venting'.  Because threats in this thread do not in of themselves result in anything.  They are virtually useless, _other_ than the hope against hope that someone at WotC notices the post count of this thread and uses it as evidence in some future DDI meeting to try and get either more people on staff or a bigger lead time on programming.

- and of course there's the final snide way of looking at things, which is the people on these boards who threaten to leave WotC forever and ever and ever... but whom we all know are just trying to look tough, and are blowing smoke up our behinds because they have no intention of _ever_ cancelling their subscriptions.  Because let's face it... the tools we DO get for 6 bucks a month are actually pretty damn useful and cool.  And we're not going to cut off our noses to spite our faces... even if we _say_ we are in an effort to try and act the big shot.


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## MrMyth (Sep 17, 2010)

Njall said:


> The only reason it's implied is that they did update it every month 'till now.




Because they've done it this way before. And, you know, have language on their website referring to the "monthly updates" from the subscription service. And I'm sure there areother similar references out there as well. 

Like Mapache says, there is a middle ground. They aren't required to publish an update every month, but that is certainly the goal of their service and what people expect. Thus, it is perfectly reasonable for people to be disappointed when circumstances mean that goal isn't met. WotC seems to agree, given that both times this has happened, they have tried to compensate those upset by the situation.


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## mudbunny (Sep 17, 2010)

DEFCON 1 said:


> stuff




Must spread XP around...blah blah blah


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## Artoomis (Sep 17, 2010)

1.  I am annoyed because i have no received what I was promised.

2.  WotC promised, through the DDi web site, a monthly update with books appearing the month after publication and Dragon/Dungeon articles with one-month delay.

3.  The EULA addresses *software *updates, not necessarily *content *updates, which is primarily what they promised, though needed software updates to make it all work was certainly implied.

4.  I am annoyed and I did write them - though I care not for a refund, I asked them to extend my annual subscription by one month.  I figure that does not cause them to have to cut a check, and I'd rather not pile on and cause that kind of loss to them right now, though some compensation is certainly in order.

5.  FWIW, I also asked them to please not over-promise and under-deliver.  I even told them it is making the company really look bad (like they need *me *to tell them *that*!  ).


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## Sean_Mc (Sep 17, 2010)

For what it's worth, here is the email I sent to Wizards customer service this afternoon.  Others may wish to do the same.

*****
My name is Sean XXXXX (RPGA #XXXXXXXXX), and I have a question regarding the DDI program and its costs.

With the two month (and counting) delay in content update, the question of compensation for current subscribers should be addressed.  This is particularly important for those of us who play Encounters, as the two updates dealt specifically with the Encounters season that was going on at the time (Dark Sun/psionic, followed by Essentials).  Are current DDI subscribers going to be receiving a refund for the past two months? Or will we be given some sort of vouchers for the Dark Sun and Essentials books that have become almost necessary to buy in order to play in the free Encounters program? The past "game table" incident was brushed aside with the promise that it wouldn't happen again, but sadly it appears that history is repeating itself.  Please consider the impact this has on player/DM faith in Wizards and the D&D team.

I, and my $9.95 per month, await your reply.

Many thanks--

Sean XXXXX
XXXXX@XXXXX.com


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## Zaukrie (Sep 17, 2010)

Thinning Dragon content. Lack of interest in most of the Dungeon content lately. Now they are no longer giving us updates to the CB (and the MB is still beta - though I'm not sure that really matters) on a monthly basis. I must say that I'm losing interest in re-upping my subscription. I may just move to the monthly every 6 months or so model. Haven't decided yet.

And, this isn't entitlement, we paid for this.


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## Bagpuss (Sep 17, 2010)

Isn't it just one months delay? It was due early September, was pushed back to late September, and now to early October. So September to October is one months delay. Two delays, but only one month.


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## Holy Bovine (Sep 18, 2010)

Sean_Mc said:


> For what it's worth, here is the email I sent to Wizards customer service this afternoon.  Others may wish to do the same.
> 
> *****
> My name is Sean XXXXX (RPGA #XXXXXXXXX), and I have a question regarding the DDI program and its costs.
> ...




Fixed for accuracy but the bolded part is a big wtf to me.  Are you seriously suggesting that because of a single missed update WotC should give every DDI subscriber free Essential and Dark Sun books?  That is utterly ridiculous.


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## Jhaelen (Sep 19, 2010)

Aegeri said:


> We aren't entitled to updates and that is absolutely true. But we are entitled to make it known we aren't happy about things being delayed. [...] But there is a point that even I have to say that I'm disappointed, especially when I don't feel I'm getting fair value out of either magazine.



Of course. Nothing wrong about that. See, I consider the following to be a completely appropriate reaction:


Aegeri said:


> I've not asked for a refund myself. I just want them to know I am annoyed with them and that is sufficient for now.




Imho, if you're complaining about something you 'feel' you are entitled to, but aren't actually, it will serve you best stay polite and reasonable.

See, I'm working in customer support from time to time, and to be honest, if a customer regularly complains about everything, generously spreading insults, and trying to get refunds for imagined flaws in products, I'm not inclined to work myself to death for the customer. It's a lot more likely, I'll do the absolute minimum of work the customer is _actually_ entitled to.

Sure, the customer will probably get his small refunds and maybe feel happy about it, but ultimately, in the long-term, he has hurt himself a lot.

In German there's a couple of sayings that illustrate what I mean, e.g. 'Der Ton macht die Musik' (It's not what you say, but how you say it) or 'Wie man in den Wald hineinruft, so schallt es heraus' (What goes around, comes around).

If someone has been a happy customer for a long time, as P1NBACK seems to have been, I can totally not understand the kind of (imho) completely unappropriate reaction, I've seen here.


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## Mika (Sep 20, 2010)

By the way -- for any annual subscriber feeling ripped off by the lack of a Character Builder update this month, the savings over a monthly subscriber are just short of the monthly rate for five months.  If September is the only month this year that is not worth the money, we are still ahead of the game.  If we don't get an update in October, then Wizards as a whole may be in trouble, as many more customers than are already doing so would then lose faith in their ability to get their act back together.  I would guess that the tipping point would come around October 5th -- at that point the number of subscribers doubting the ability of Wizards ever to get another Character Builder update out would go from a minority to a majority.


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## UngainlyTitan (Sep 20, 2010)

If there is no update by the middle of October then they shoul give a lot of information regarding hte nature of the delay and what they are doing about it.
So fir instance, it the delay is cause by difficulties of codeing new features in to the database/CB/Monster Builder or what ever, they should be open and up front about. This would give people the information to make informed judgements and gain some good will. 
It is equally true if the delay is caused by the fact that updating databases is a pure manual data entry process and the delay is caused by the fact that psionic, Dark Sun and Essentials all came in close succession and the system simply became overloaded.

At that point baseless speculation is going to be more damaging than the truth.


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## wedgeski (Sep 20, 2010)

I am an annual subscriber and am very much looking forward to the Dark Sun content. This delay does not bother me one jot. I am not feeling screwed, "royally" or otherwise. I'll get my stuff next month, no biggie. Stuff happens, as they say.


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## DEFCON 1 (Sep 20, 2010)

ardoughter said:


> If there is no update by the middle of October then they shoul give a lot of information regarding hte nature of the delay and what they are doing about it.
> So fir instance, it the delay is cause by difficulties of codeing new features in to the database/CB/Monster Builder or what ever, they should be open and up front about. This would give people the information to make informed judgements and gain some good will.



Heh... I tend to think those who will be pissed off and get upset about it will do so even if WotC was to give a "good reason" for it.

As far as people having "informed judgements" about it... it just means they'll direct their anger towards WotC to a specific place, rather than a more general one.  The anger itself won't go away.


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## Holy Bovine (Sep 21, 2010)

Well WotC Customer Service refunded me the cost of September's subscription ($6).  I'm satisfied that they know the customer base is watching and expecting their products in a timely manner in the future.  I doubt they will miss October's update come hell or high water.


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## ourchair (Sep 21, 2010)

Shazman said:


> Quite frankly, if you have to go looking for the EULA, then it isn't really upfront.  It's hidden away so they can point to it, but the fact that most of us weren't aware of it shows how completely not upfront it was.  If it was there right when you opened up the CB or in the link to download it, then it would be upfront.



Exactly.

I'm not suggesting that the EULA is an excuse to not update, but rather, pointing to the fact that they've legally got their asses covered. It is after all, quite possible to flat out dispute the contradictions a EULA presents vs. the marketed features of a service and product. IIRC, a class action lawsuit was presented against Origin Systems when the play experience of Ultima Online did not match what was advertised on the box.


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## Ryujin (Sep 21, 2010)

ourchair said:


> Exactly.
> 
> I'm not suggesting that the EULA is an excuse to not update, but rather, pointing to the fact that they've legally got their asses covered. It is after all, quite possible to flat out dispute the contradictions a EULA presents vs. the marketed features of a service and product. IIRC, a class action lawsuit was presented against Origin Systems when the play experience of Ultima Online did not match what was advertised on the box.




Yes, it's the difference between a 'contract' and an 'implied contract.'


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## Raunalyn (Sep 21, 2010)

Well, I can't help but feel disappointed. I was really looking forward to the update because I am planning on running an online DarkSun campaign.

It makes it so much easier to build characters and coordinate with my players using the CB and Adventure tools.

If anyone has any ideas on other tools I can use to get started on my game, please share them. I'd hate to have my players wait another month to start.


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## Holy Bovine (Sep 21, 2010)

Raunalyn said:


> Well, I can't help but feel disappointed. I was really looking forward to the update because I am planning on running an online DarkSun campaign.
> 
> It makes it so much easier to build characters and coordinate with my players using the CB and Adventure tools.
> 
> If anyone has any ideas on other tools I can use to get started on my game, please share them. I'd hate to have my players wait another month to start.




Use these first then convert to MS Word?


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## True_Blue (Sep 21, 2010)

I started a new Dark Sun game last weekend, and I was definitely disappointed that the Character Builder wasn't updated, but I just jiggered it in the Character Builder and was able to have my PC's have everything they needed.

One PC made a Mul.  I just didnt give him a race.  For ability scores, I just upped it to what it would have been (making it houseruled), and in the character sheet part I added his extra healing surge and his bonuses to skills, and then printed it out, no problem.  For his racial power, I just created a quick card for it.

For the Warlock with the Sorcerer-King pact, I just didnt choose a pact and then made a quick card for Hand of Blight.

For both the Humans, I created a quick card for the +4 to one roll an encounter.

And then for the themes, I just created quick cards for each of the encounter powers, and two of the PC's even had the same Theme (Veiled Alliance), so that even made it a little easier.

While it would have been simpler to just have the Character Builder have it, it really wasnt this big ordeal to make changed to it either.  It took maybe 20-30 mins?  That may be a lot to some people, but to me it was worth the time and very easily done.

I *really* wanted the Character Builder done, for the Dark Sun material and the Psionic Power material, it even would have been nice with Essentials in there.  But seriously, when that didnt work out, it took just a little bit and I was able to be just fine.  I'm literally floored that some people chose to play a different game for one or two weeks just because the Character Builder wasn't updated.  It really was that hard to just mess with a couple of things, or create your own?  I mean, with my stuff, 90-95% of the stuff I needed was still in the Character Builder, and only a few things needed to be created by me.

I guess I'm just amazed that people are *that* reliant on it.  Its almost scary that people have come to rely on it needing to be up to date.  I understand if you dont have the Character Builder at all, then 4e can look a little daunting to create.  But we are talking about an Update, sure it has some juicy bits in it, but it can't encompass most of your PC group, can it?  I mean literally your group is made up of all Muls, Thri-Kreens, Sorcerer-King pact Warlocks, Wild Battleminds, and possibly other things that are in the Psionic Power book?

Again, dissapointing, but not very hard to get around with just a little bit of time, literally 20-30 mins, which I still believe most people can find.

If the Character Builder has only had this problem twice in the span of two years, I find that *wonderful* customer service and honestly exceeds my expectations by a lot.  I'm actually amazed people are complaining about it.  Sure its unfortunate it happened right at the time everyone seemed to want to start a Dark Sun game, and that sucks, but man twice is awesome to me.  Instead of demanding a refund, I would have thought most people would have loved the track record.  I guess people are just sensitive because its around Dark Sun/Essentials time, or at least I hope that is the reason.


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## bert1000 (Sep 21, 2010)

True_Blue said:


> I guess I'm just amazed that people are *that* reliant on it. Its almost scary that people have come to rely on it needing to be up to date.




"Nine times seven, thought Shuman with deep satisfaction, is sixty-three, and I don't need a computer to tell me so. The computer is in my own head. 

And it was amazing the feeling of power that gave him." 

This just prompted me to recommend an excellent short story by Asimov, "The Feeling of Power".


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## Otterscrubber (Sep 21, 2010)

As long as I have access to the material that is out there, then I don't feel ripped off at all.  I don't expect them to create new crap just for the sake of creating it.  I do expect them to keep all info up to date though.   However I would like to know if and how they plan to integrate the essentials info into both the character builder and the compendium.  Are they making the changes to the races in the Essentials the official race erratta/update for 4e?  or are these "essentials" races.  I hope not, I don't really want an "essentials" human vs a 4e PHB human, that would seem lame.


----------



## jelmore (Sep 21, 2010)

Otterscrubber said:


> However I would like to know if and how they plan to integrate the essentials info into both the character builder and the compendium.  Are they making the changes to the races in the Essentials the official race erratta/update for 4e?




The changes in the Essentials books apply to the "core" 4th Edition as well. This article discusses some of the changes and errata that will be added to the digital tools such as the Compendium and Character Builder -- consider it an interim "errata" document:

Dungeons & Dragons Roleplaying Game Official Home Page - Article (Changes Coming in Essentials)

To answer your question, the "Essentials" races _are_ the standard forms of those races going forward.


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## True_Blue (Sep 21, 2010)

Otterscrubber said:


> I don't really want an "essentials" human vs a 4e PHB human, that would seem lame.




I hope so..?  I don't understand why someone wouldn't want this.  For any other race it doesn't make sense.  You wouldn't have an Essentials Dwarf and a Non-Essentials Dwarf because the only difference is that the Essentials Dwarf gets to choose between two attributes for their second stat.

But it *does* make sense to give the Human a choice on what they would like to do, gain an extra at-will or gain an encounter power that gives a +4 to one roll.  I have no idea why someone *wouldn't* want to see that in there.  If a fictional book came out called "Drow Power" which let me substitute a new power in the place of the Darkness power, I would want that in the Character Builder.  Its just like choosing one class feature over another.

So I'm really not sure why you would not want that option?  It does not make sense to me.  Its literally swapping one racial power for another one.

P.S. Unless there's been more changes to the races than what I've seen?


----------



## epochrpg (Sep 21, 2010)

Hey it is the 21st.  Wasn't the Dark Sun and Essentials stuff supposed to be able to update on the Character Builder today?


----------



## UngainlyTitan (Sep 21, 2010)

epochrpg said:


> Hey it is the 21st. Wasn't the Dark Sun and Essentials stuff supposed to be able to update on the Character Builder today?



I take it you missed the no update bit.


----------



## epochrpg (Sep 21, 2010)

ardoughter said:


> I take it you missed the no update bit.




Then I take it you missed a few posts down the thread where it said that Wizards said the update would be today.  This thread began more than a week ago, when someone was upset there'd be no update, but other posters said that there would be one on the 21st.


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## Stumblewyk (Sep 21, 2010)

epochrpg said:


> Then I take it you missed a few posts down the thread where it said that Wizards said the update would be today.  This thread began more than a week ago, when someone was upset there'd be no update, but other posters said that there would be one on the 21st.



 The update was originally pushed back to the 21st.  They then sent out a message to DDI subscribers via their Community site informing us that there would be no update at all for September.  They hoped that they could get everything done in time for October's scheduled update.

We'll see about that.

Anyway, what prompted this entire topic was the message about there being no update at all in September.


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## P1NBACK (Sep 21, 2010)

epochrpg said:


> then i take it you missed a few posts down the thread where it said that wizards said the update would be today.  This thread began more than a week ago, when someone was upset there'd be no update, but other posters said that there would be one on the 21st.




^ lol...


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## renau1g (Sep 21, 2010)

epochrpg said:


> Then I take it you missed a few posts down the thread where it said that Wizards said the update would be today.  This thread began more than a week ago, when someone was upset there'd be no update, but other posters said that there would be one on the 21st.




Here's the link to the WOTC site with the announcement for those who didn't get the email.

Whoops! Browser Settings Incompatible


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## w_earle_wheeler (Sep 21, 2010)

It seems pretty darn unprofessional for them to miss this month's update, especially with the big Essentials marketing push going on.

Reminds me of the 4e books being released with a huge DDI advertisement in the back... but none of their advertised features were even ready at the time.

I don't want to totally bust their kobalds over this, but it just seems sketchy as hell.


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## epochrpg (Sep 21, 2010)

Stumblewyk said:


> The update was originally pushed back to the 21st.  They then sent out a message to DDI subscribers via their Community site informing us that there would be no update at all for September.  They hoped that they could get everything done in time for October's scheduled update.
> 
> We'll see about that.
> 
> Anyway, what prompted this entire topic was the message about there being no update at all in September.




My bad.  From my first read through, I thought that someone was complaining that there would be no update at all, and then later were corrected that there would indeed be an update on the 21st.  That was however, apparently, the opposite of what was happening.  

It is rather frustrating to try and play Dark Sun without the CB being updated.


----------



## Holy Bovine (Sep 22, 2010)

w_earle_wheeler said:


> It seems pretty darn unprofessional for them to miss this month's update, especially with the big Essentials marketing push going on.
> 
> Reminds me of the 4e books being released with a huge DDI advertisement in the back... but none of their advertised features were even ready at the time.
> 
> I don't want to totally bust their kobalds over this, but it just seems sketchy as hell.




Except for the fact Essentials wouldn't have actually been in this months original update.  They did promise, when they moved the update to the 21st Sept that it would include Essentials.  That was way too ambitious (2+ weeks early!) imo and was probably the root cause of this mess.

That said they _will_ refund you the cost of September's subscription if you email them asking for it.  Took me about 5 minutes to do.


----------



## Theroc (Sep 22, 2010)

Holy Bovine said:


> Except for the fact Essentials wouldn't have actually been in this months original update.  They did promise, when they moved the update to the 21st Sept that it would include Essentials.  That was way too ambitious (2+ weeks early!) imo and was probably the root cause of this mess.
> 
> That said they _will_ refund you the cost of September's subscription if you email them asking for it.  Took me about 5 minutes to do.




Do I just email the customer support or what?  Also, what is the proper way to go about asking?

I ask partly because I've been attempting to get the CB to update at all, let alone for this month(and the CB was the deciding factor in my purchasing a DDI sub in the first place), and would like to get an extension so I can hopefully rectify the issue, but I want to make sure I'm not rude or anything.


----------



## ourchair (Sep 22, 2010)

Bagpuss said:


> Isn't it just one months delay? It was due early September, was pushed back to late September, and now to early October. So September to October is one months delay. Two delays, but only one month.



Bagpuss' math is indisputable.



Holy Bovine said:


> Fixed for accuracy but the bolded part is a big wtf to me.  Are you seriously suggesting that because of a single missed update WotC should give every DDI subscriber free Essential and Dark Sun books?  That is utterly ridiculous.



He actually said "vouchers," so that could easily mean a kind of rebate or discount,and not necessarily the whole book.



			
				Mika said:
			
		

> By the way -- for any annual subscriber feeling ripped off by the lack of a Character Builder update this month, the savings over a monthly subscriber are just short of the monthly rate for five months. If September is the only month this year that is not worth the money, we are still ahead of the game. If we don't get an update in October, then Wizards as a whole may be in trouble, as many more customers than are already doing so would then lose faith in their ability to get their act back together. I would guess that the tipping point would come around October 5th -- at that point the number of subscribers doubting the ability of Wizards ever to get another Character Builder update out would go from a minority to a majority.



I understand what you are trying to analyze here, but I did not understand. Clarify, please?



True_Blue said:


> I started a new Dark Sun game last weekend, and I was definitely disappointed that the Character Builder wasn't updated, but I just jiggered it in the Character Builder and was able to have my PC's have everything they needed.
> 
> One PC made a Mul.  I just didnt give him a race.  For ability scores, I just upped it to what it would have been (making it houseruled), and in the character sheet part I added his extra healing surge and his bonuses to skills, and then printed it out, no problem.  For his racial power, I just created a quick card for it.
> 
> ...



You are a wise man, sir.

Also, I actually did the same thing. I house ruled Thri-Kreen racial benefits and theme powers based on the preview material in my campaign.


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## ppaladin123 (Sep 22, 2010)

True_Blue said:


> I hope so..?  I don't understand why someone wouldn't want this.  For any other race it doesn't make sense.  You wouldn't have an Essentials Dwarf and a Non-Essentials Dwarf because the only difference is that the Essentials Dwarf gets to choose between two attributes for their second stat.
> 
> But it *does* make sense to give the Human a choice on what they would like to do, gain an extra at-will or gain an encounter power that gives a +4 to one roll.  I have no idea why someone *wouldn't* want to see that in there.  If a fictional book came out called "Drow Power" which let me substitute a new power in the place of the Darkness power, I would want that in the Character Builder.  Its just like choosing one class feature over another.
> 
> ...





Actually Dragonborn already have a choice of two racial powers at creation and Tieflings have two or three (one of them might require a feat). In the character builder you just select the racial power. I imagine it will be the same with humans.


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## Infiniti2000 (Sep 22, 2010)

From this thread clearly Wizards should reduce the cost on the CB and add a cost for other DDI elements. The total cost would then be more but then all the people whining about the refund would also not be able then to access everything else for free.


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## P1NBACK (Sep 22, 2010)

Infiniti2000 said:


> From this thread clearly Wizards should reduce the cost on the CB and add a cost for other DDI elements. The total cost would then be more but then all the people whining about the refund would also not be able then to access everything else for free.




Many people have asked for exactly this, an _a la carte_ based subscription program. 

If I want Dungeon, I pay for that. If I want Dragon, I pay for that. If I want both, I pay for both. If I want Dragon and the Character Builder, I pay for that. Etc...

And, get what you pay for. 

I'd be fine with this. That way when Dragon sucks (as it has the past couple months), I don't have to waste my money. I can just buy the update to the CB and get all the crunch. 

Will WotC do this? Probably not.


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## True_Blue (Sep 22, 2010)

If I were them, I wouldn't split it up.  They would probably make less money if they were to do so, so it doesn't make sense to do it.

Most people (in my opinion) get DDI so that they can update the Character Builder.  Everything else is mostly just extra.  So they would have to lessen the cost of the DDI, and then add in a model to charge for Dungeon, Dragon, etc.  And I dont think many more people would pay for the magazines, so overall they would lose money.

Also, from a financial standpoint and book keeping, its easier on them to just have one on/off switch.  They can flag all this material as needing a subscription and they only need to worry about that one flag.


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## P1NBACK (Sep 22, 2010)

True_Blue said:


> Most people (in my opinion) get DDI so that they can update the Character Builder.




I subscribe for the _*updates *_to the CB and _*access *_to the Compendium. 

I like the Monster Builder and it's a nice bonus. Same with the magazines. But, I don't subscribe for them. If they fixed some of the problems with the Monster Builder (bugs/templates/MM3 stats for all) then I'd be subscribing for the MB also.


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## wedgeski (Sep 22, 2010)

P1NBACK said:


> Will WotC do this? Probably not.



If they did you can bet that the new, combined cost of all of the features would be far in excess of the few dollars a month we already pay for the whole lot. "Be careful what you wish for" and all that.

Honestly, I can't fathom the notion that a DDI subscription is in any way not already *huge* value for money. A missed CB update hardly puts a dent in that record as far as I'm concerned, so I'm quite happy to cut Wizards some slack.

Demanding compensation seemed miserly to me in the first instance, but actually *receiving* it showed a surprising level of generosity from Wizards IMO.


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## P1NBACK (Sep 22, 2010)

wedgeski said:


> If they did you can bet that the new, combined cost of all of the features would be far in excess of the few dollars a month we already pay for the whole lot. "Be careful what you wish for" and all that.
> 
> Honestly, I can't fathom the notion that a DDI subscription is in any way not already *huge* value for money. A missed CB update hardly puts a dent in that record as far as I'm concerned, so I'm quite happy to cut Wizards some slack.
> 
> Demanding compensation seemed miserly to me in the first instance, but actually *receiving* it showed a surprising level of generosity from Wizards IMO.




We all have opinions.


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## Holy Bovine (Sep 22, 2010)

Theroc said:


> Do I just email the customer support or what?  Also, what is the proper way to go about asking?
> 
> I ask partly because I've been attempting to get the CB to update at all, let alone for this month(and the CB was the deciding factor in my purchasing a DDI sub in the first place), and would like to get an extension so I can hopefully rectify the issue, but I want to make sure I'm not rude or anything.





I just hit the 'contact us' link on the D&D main page - I didn't use much in the way of the 'automated' responses just made sure it was going to the D&D guys and made my own subject line - something like "Character Builder September update".

this is the email I sent


> Hi!
> 
> Like many D&DI subscribers I was deeply disappointed with the announcement yesterday that there would be no update to the Character Builder or Adventure Tools programs this month. My groups and I get a lot of use out of these programs and were even starting a Dark Sun game this month which is now on hold until October. I was hoping that there would be some kind of compensation to subscribers for the inconvenience of this missed update. Thank you for you time and consideration.




Within 24 hours they had sent a full refund for September - more than I was expecting as Dragon & Dungeon are still on time.  I felt my email was polite and to the point.  Anything you write should be brief and clear, imo and above all polite!  I'm sure they are getting dozens if not hundreds of emails about this alone so being polite costs you nothing and probably makes someone else's day easier - win/win imo.

Hope you get your CB problems sorted out as well.


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## Holy Bovine (Sep 22, 2010)

wedgeski said:


> Demanding compensation seemed miserly to me in the first instance, but actually *receiving* it showed a surprising level of generosity from Wizards IMO.




Aw c'mon!  That hardly seems fair to anyone calling them 'miserly'.  

And I am the first to laud WotC for their willingness to pay back people who felt cheated out of what they wanted from DDI this month.  The fact a simple email will get you a full refund is very generous - I expected a partial refund at most, nothing at worst (but sending the email was free so what the hey!).

Lets not drop to name calling m'kay?


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## jelmore (Sep 22, 2010)

True_Blue said:


> But it *does* make sense to give the Human a choice on what they would like to do, gain an extra at-will or gain an encounter power that gives a +4 to one roll.  I have no idea why someone *wouldn't* want to see that in there.




In the errata document that I linked, the Human gets to choose between the racial power from HoFL and taking an extra at-will from their class.


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## badmojojojo (Sep 22, 2010)

pedr said:


> I (and, presumably, every DDI subscriber with a WotC Community account) just received notification that adding the new rules systems to incorporate Dark Sun (presumably Themes) and Essentials builds hasn't been possible in time for a 21st September update, so it doesn't look as if there'll be a September update at all. The message says that they hope to update in 'early October'.




I have a subscription & community account and I received no such notice.


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## Ahrimon (Sep 22, 2010)

badmojojojo said:


> I have a subscription & community account and I received no such notice.




There was a followup forum(?) message saying that not all subscribers received the message due to a technical glitch in their notification system and they were trying to figure out why it happened.


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## badmojojojo (Sep 22, 2010)

Thanks Ahrimon!


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## ourchair (Sep 23, 2010)

True_Blue said:


> If I were them, I wouldn't split it up.  They would probably make less money if they were to do so, so it doesn't make sense to do it.
> 
> Most people (in my opinion) get DDI so that they can update the Character Builder.  Everything else is mostly just extra.  So they would have to lessen the cost of the DDI, and then add in a model to charge for Dungeon, Dragon, etc.  And I dont think many more people would pay for the magazines, so overall they would lose money.
> 
> Also, from a financial standpoint and book keeping, its easier on them to just have one on/off switch.  They can flag all this material as needing a subscription and they only need to worry about that one flag.



Exactly.

Never mind the fact that an a la carte would probably have a higher per item cost than getting the magazines and Compendium and tools together.

(Yes, and everybody hates the magazines, but STILL.)


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## Jhaelen (Sep 23, 2010)

ourchair said:


> (Yes, and everybody hates the magazines, but STILL.)



Well, everyone hates the magazines until WotC decides that since everybody hates them, they should stop writing articles and adventures for them. I wonder what would happen then... 

Haven't there already been monthly updates that didn't involve anything but magazine content?


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## jelmore (Sep 23, 2010)

Ahrimon said:


> There was a followup forum(?) message saying that not all subscribers received the message _due to a technical glitch in their notification system_ and they were trying to figure out why it happened.




There's a comment to be made there somewhere, but I can't quite tease it out...


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## renau1g (Sep 23, 2010)

ourchair said:


> (Yes, and everybody hates the magazines, but STILL.)




Uhh.... I don't hate the magazines, Dungeon is a great resource for a time-strapped DM, and Dragon got at least _some_ interesting stuff in it just about every month. 

You (and some people on the interwebs) =/= Everyone


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## catsclaw227 (Sep 23, 2010)

Wait a sec...

If the Sept update was delayed to October (well, delayed to late Sept, then early Oct), and we are getting the Sept content and the Oct content in the update, we aren't losing anything except some time, right?  The information that people are requesting refunds for will be available to them anyway, right?  And we still got access to the compendium, dragon and dungeon magazines, art work, access to customer service people, and they maintained their bandwidth and allowed us to have continued access to everything, even though two electronic tools didn't get a timely data update.

I just don't get the refund entitlement.  Really, I am sorry if I am being dense, but it looks like they spoiled us with great tools, timely updates and people now feel that their $6/month should give them buckets of gold too.

And for those commenting on how they now have to wait to start their campaigns?  What the heck did you do back in 1985/1995/2000 when you were playing D&D?  Did we all forget how to use paper, pencils and our imagination to make first level characters or to draw maps and make adventures?

Sorry if I sound a little agitated, but geez.... what have we become?


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## P1NBACK (Sep 23, 2010)

Jhaelen said:


> Well, everyone hates the magazines until WotC decides that since everybody hates them, they should stop writing articles and adventures for them. I wonder what would happen then...




There'd be a nice little market for third parties... Who'd might do it better, and be profitable because WotC wasn't owning the market. 



Jhaelen said:


> Haven't there already been monthly updates that didn't involve anything but magazine content?




Yeah. They could have used this month to get ahead and we wouldn't be in this situation.


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## P1NBACK (Sep 23, 2010)

catsclaw227 said:


> Wait a sec...
> 
> If the Sept update was delayed to October (well, delayed to late Sept, then early Oct), and we are getting the Sept content and the Oct content in the update, we aren't losing anything except some time, right?




That's assuming the delay doesn't push back the October update... Right? 



catsclaw227 said:


> I just don't get the refund entitlement.  Really, I am sorry if I am being dense, but it looks like they spoiled us with great tools, timely updates and people now feel that their $6/month should give them buckets of gold too.




Those are all your opinions. Some people don't see the tools as that great. Some people think the CB suffers badly from lack of customization (every DM out there customizes in one way or another) and lack of third-party support. Still the CB is probably the best tool out. There's only two tools out... The Monster Builder has been in "beta" for a year now with lack of things like templates and tons of bugs (especially since the MM3 update). Most of the monsters aren't even legal (by WotC standards) because they didn't update all the old monsters to MM3 standards, so we're left manually updating them all - but unfortunately, there's bugs now messing up custom monsters... Double whammy. 

The Compendium is nice. It's probably the thing I use most. I wouldn't call it a tool. It's a searchable database. It's nice, but it also is missing plenty of data (diseases would be nice...). 

Many people have been complaining of late about the quality and content in the magazines, including declining amount and size of articles and the poor balancing in some of the crunch. 

There hasn't been any word on new tools. Some people don't like this fact. 

All-in-all, me personally, I'm satisfied with my subscription. But, I don't think it's "unreasonable" for people to be dissatisfied with the lack of an update. The monthly updates and bug fixes should be WotC's main priority. If they can't accomplish this, what kind of indication is that of fixes and expanding to current tools and us seeing an actual new tool to accompany the MB alongside those empty slots in the Adventure Tool"s". 

Know what I mean?

And, remember, it's only $6 for annual subscribers who get cheesed when a month comes that they don't see anything they like or there's no update, etc... For the others, it's $10 a month. I don't know about you, but my entertainment fund isn't the most expansive in this economy. So, let's try to see things from outside our point of view for a second here.


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## renau1g (Sep 23, 2010)

I can see people how paid for a 1 month or 3 month membership which is now expiring who won't get their expected Sept. update to be upset, other than that I'm disappointed, but man there's a lot of rage out there, mostly on the wotc boards... "I'm canceling my subscription, this is an outrage, they should give me free stuff, I'll boycott them, RAWR, RAWR, RAWR!"

P1NBACK - even if its $10, if you are that tight you likely have bigger problems than wotc missing a update time. $4 really should have no impact on your budget. There are far easier ways to trim a budget down than that. Heck you could turn off your lights more or raise the thermostat (in summer) and save way more than that.


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## epochrpg (Sep 23, 2010)

I just don't get why there are so many apologists here getting mad that someone says "well if they delayed my Sept. update, I should be allowed to delay my Sept. payment".  To me that sounds perfectly fair & reasonable.  

I once subscribed to a magazine that was supposed to be 6 issues/year.  They ended up only putting out 4.  Guess what they did- they gave me the next two issues from the next year to honor their end of the subscription of 6 issues   what a concept.  

Does this mean that everyone will get a free month added to the end of their DDI subscription?   Only time will tell...


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## True_Blue (Sep 23, 2010)

I use the Character Builder and Dungeon magazine, and that's about it.  I don't mess with the Monster Builder because personally I don't feel I need to.  I run pre-made adventures and they usually have the stat blocks in them, and if I need a monster, I just use one from one of the MM's.  Dragon magazine I don't really need to read because I just wait for it to come out in the Character Builder, then I use the stuff.  I've read a couple of Dragon's, and used one or two things early (especially right now for Templars), but overall I don't need it.

Basically for me to play a session, I use the Character Builder, a Dungeon magazine, and my PHB.  And then in addition to that I have a battlemap, dungeon tiles, miniatures, and my dapper devil tokens.


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## MrMyth (Sep 23, 2010)

catsclaw227 said:


> I just don't get the refund entitlement. Really, I am sorry if I am being dense, but it looks like they spoiled us with great tools, timely updates and people now feel that their $6/month should give them buckets of gold too.




I think the refunds are offered mainly for those whose subscription might run out at the end of September. Thus, they _would_ miss the update entirely. So WotC has in the past been willing to reimburse them or extend subscription for a month so they can get the update. 

But, of course, if they are doing that for some people, it would be poor service to deny others who were already signed up for subscription through October. Thus, WotC is willing to keep everyone happy by offering refunds to those who are genuinely frustrated over this.


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## P1NBACK (Sep 23, 2010)

renau1g said:


> P1NBACK - even if its $10, if you are that tight you likely have bigger problems than wotc missing a update time. $4 really should have no impact on your budget. There are far easier ways to trim a budget down than that. Heck you could turn off your lights more or raise the thermostat (in summer) and save way more than that.




Nah. See. There you go assuming  about me. Stop that. 

You don't know the first thing about my budget. I said my entertainment budget. Meaning, I have X amount of dollars set aside for entertainment each month/year. When I spend $10 on D&D products (not including any tiles, minis, or books I buy) that's taking away from something else I might do that's entertaining (go to a movie, subscribe to WoW, etc...). 

So, if I have a choice of A) spend $10 on nothing or B) go to the movies, which do you think I'm going to do? 

Quit presuming my entertainment fund has anything to do with my living expenses. That's just ing rude.


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## Jhaelen (Sep 23, 2010)

epochrpg said:


> I just don't get why there are so many apologists here getting mad that someone says "well if they delayed my Sept. update, I should be allowed to delay my Sept. payment".  To me that sounds perfectly fair & reasonable.
> 
> I once subscribed to a magazine that was supposed to be 6 issues/year.  They ended up only putting out 4.  Guess what they did- they gave me the next two issues from the next year to honor their end of the subscription of 6 issues   what a concept.



And I don't get why so many people are missing the point.

Subscribers did not miss a single issue of the magazines they subscribed for. What they missed (assuming their subscription ran out at the end of this month) was an update of a tool that noone ever guaranteed would be updated every month.

There might be subscribers that are really only interested in the magazines, just like P1NBACK is only interested in the character builder / compendium. So, they lost exactly nothing.

When I'm paying for software maintenance for a year, I'm not usually guaranteed to get a fixed number of updates. I'm just guaranteed to get all maintenance releases that happen to be released in that year.

Your DDI subscription is for the whole package, you cannot subscribe to only part of the offer. You aren't entitled to a refund just because you don't care about part of the package.


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## P1NBACK (Sep 23, 2010)

Jhaelen said:


> You aren't entitled to a refund just because you don't care about part of the package.




Actually, yes, we are. I got my refund *days* ago. Thanks WotC! 

This thread should be over. Those of you concerned about the lack of update can email CS and get a refund. Those of you who could care less, well you get to continue life as normal!


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## Jhaelen (Sep 23, 2010)

P1NBACK said:


> So, if I have a choice of A) spend $10 on nothing or B) go to the movies, which do you think I'm going to do?



But you didn't get 'nothing'. You got a new issue of Dungeon and Dragon.

And please watch your language. This flood of smilies does not help in arguing your case.


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## Jhaelen (Sep 23, 2010)

P1NBACK said:


> Actually, yes, we are. I got my refund *days* ago. Thanks WotC!



No, 'we' aren't. You got a refund as an amiability and not because you were entitled a refund.


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## Goonalan (Sep 23, 2010)

Is this that thread...

Just in case-

peeve 
tr.v. peeved, peev·ing, peeves 
To cause to be annoyed or resentful. See Synonyms at annoy.
n. 
1. A vexation; a grievance.
2. A resentful mood: in a peeve about the delays.

This is the a thread started by a guy who was peeved that the DDI update was not going to happen at the time Wizards said.

He was, and probably still is... peeved.

Other people have joined the thread to agree and say they are peeved (to a lesser, and sometimes much greater extent).

Levels of peevishness may differ.

Other people have joined the thread to offer explanations to mitigate the levels of peevishness being felt by the OP and others.

Some of these individuals are peeved that the OP (and others) are peeved at all.

Levels of peevishness may differ.

Those that are peeved because of the DDI delay are now doubly peeved because 'other people' are telling them how peeved (or not) they should feel.

The peeved are becoming even more peeved, and are beginning to transfer their initial peeve to those that are telling them how and when to be peeved.

This peevishness has caused those previously unpeeved by the DDI delay to to become increasingly peeved with the people who are peeved with the DDI delay, and are now peeved with them.

Is this that thread?

Because if it is, apologies, I meant to post somewhere else...


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## P1NBACK (Sep 23, 2010)

Jhaelen said:


> But you didn't get 'nothing'. You got a new issue of Dungeon and Dragon.
> 
> And please watch your language. This flood of smilies does not help in arguing your case.




Nope. I don't use the Dungeon and Dragon magazine. So, really, I got nothing this month. I notified WotC, and they refunded the money. It's not a big deal. You don't have to be upset with me about it. I know you're a staunch WotC patriot, but really... It's gone overboard. 

And, I'll use the language if it calls for it. Insulting me calls for it. Thank you very much.


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## P1NBACK (Sep 23, 2010)

Jhaelen said:


> No, 'we' aren't. You got a refund as an amiability and not because you were entitled a refund.




No really. I am. If I pay for a service/product and that product doesn't live up to my expectations, I return it or ask for a refund. That's called being a good consumer. Putting your money where your mouth is. Etc... 

You're more than welcome to buy an inferior product. No one's arguing against you paying for September's D&D Insider offerings. So, why argue against those who feel like the product is inferior and would like a refund? It makes absolutely no sense outside of staunch fanboyism. Really.


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## renau1g (Sep 24, 2010)

P1NBACK said:


> Nah. See. There you go assuming  about me. Stop that.
> 
> You don't know the first thing about my budget. I said my entertainment budget. Meaning, I have X amount of dollars set aside for entertainment each month/year. When I spend $10 on D&D products (not including any tiles, minis, or books I buy) that's taking away from something else I might do that's entertaining (go to a movie, subscribe to WoW, etc...).
> 
> ...




Not presuming anything. Making an observation based on what you posted. I was making an alternative suggestion if $10 is all someone has for entertainment, providing some simple tips on ways to save $'s from someone with years of experience of budgeting, capital, personal, and production. If you save $13 on utilities, you could have $13 more for entertainment . Also, it's better to go with the longer subscription, it's only $6/month. Better value. 

Just an added note, there's nothing in any consumer protection laws that *REQUIRE* a refund or give a refund, you are not entitled to anything. It's not "being a good consumer" it's the company being a good company. They could have just as easily told you (the proverbial you who asked for the refund) to go pound sand. Also, pointing out that there *was* something in September as part of what the cost of a month's subscription entails is not fanboyism, it's fact. There *IS* an issue of Dungeon available and and issue of Dragon available. That you *choose* not to use them in no way invalidates the simple fact that they exist.


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## Umbran (Sep 24, 2010)

P1NBACK said:


> It makes absolutely no sense outside of staunch fanboyism.





*Either you knew exactly how rude that was, or you were completely clueless about how rude that was.  I'm not sure which is worse.

Next time, how about you try to make your point without suggesting other people are irrational just because you don't get where they're coming from, okay?  Thanks.*


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## Mad Hamish (Sep 24, 2010)

epochrpg said:


> I just don't get why there are so many apologists here getting mad that someone says "well if they delayed my Sept. update, I should be allowed to delay my Sept. payment".  To me that sounds perfectly fair & reasonable.
> 
> I once subscribed to a magazine that was supposed to be 6 issues/year.  They ended up only putting out 4.  Guess what they did- they gave me the next two issues from the next year to honor their end of the subscription of 6 issues   what a concept.
> 
> Does this mean that everyone will get a free month added to the end of their DDI subscription?   Only time will tell...




a) DDI is more than the character builder and you're still getting dungeon and dragon updates, so you're still getting at least part of your subscription value
b) there has never been a guarantee in the licence that there will be a character builder every month.

The magazine case is different because you are subscribing for a number of magazines (or in more common subscription situations the magazines are stated as being out on a fixed schedule)


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## Mad Hamish (Sep 24, 2010)

P1NBACK said:


> No really. I am. If I pay for a service/product and that product doesn't live up to my expectations, I return it or ask for a refund. That's called being a good consumer. Putting your money where your mouth is. Etc...
> 
> You're more than welcome to buy an inferior product. No one's arguing against you paying for September's D&D Insider offerings. So, why argue against those who feel like the product is inferior and would like a refund? It makes absolutely no sense outside of staunch fanboyism. Really.




You weren't entitled to a refund. 
Wizards have not breached any part of their service agreement.
They have chosen to go beyond what they had to do and give you a refund.

If something doesn't live up to your expectations you aren't entitled to a refund if it actually meets what was agreed to in the agreement. If I go to a movie and it fails to entertain me I'm not entitled to a refund on it.


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## Theroc (Sep 24, 2010)

Mad Hamish said:


> You weren't entitled to a refund.
> Wizards have not breached any part of their service agreement.
> They have chosen to go beyond what they had to do and give you a refund.
> 
> If something doesn't live up to your expectations you aren't entitled to a refund if it actually meets what was agreed to in the agreement. If I go to a movie and it fails to entertain me I'm not entitled to a refund on it.




Don't theaters have a 15 minute rule or something?  Or was that just my LFMT?


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## Ahrimon (Sep 24, 2010)

Theroc said:


> Don't theaters have a 15 minute rule or something?  Or was that just my LFMT?




I think no update is more like demanding your money back because they don't have any popcorn.


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## Ryujin (Sep 24, 2010)

Something just came to mind. I seem to recall that there was a statement, somewhere in the original release of Character Builder, that you were entitled to 5 update downloads a month. Since the site rebuild I can't find it now. I'm the sort of person who reinstalls the O/S fairly frequently, to maintain peak performance, and this would be a good month to do that. With 5 systems being updated for player use, there doesn't seem to have been a reset of the "installation counter" this month.


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## Shag (Sep 24, 2010)

You may have missed it, but The Rules of EN World are clear on this matter - if you have questions or comments on moderation, don't take them up in-thread.  Take them to e-mail or PM with a moderator.  Thanks.

~Umbran


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## Zaran (Sep 24, 2010)

The way that new Essentials Survivor Guide article talks we might not be getting an October Errata.



> One thing you will want to check out is the updates to existing rules that are presented in _Heroes of the Fallen Lands_ (and a similar file that will surely be released with _Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdom_).




We may have to wait for HoFK for things like updates to the Half-Elf.  I was hoping for a big essentials based errata for October.


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## Goken100 (Sep 24, 2010)

*Example of Good Customer Service*

My cable company used to completely screw me over at every opportunity.  No service for a week?  Cable guy didn't show up?  Twice?  And was late the third time?  So I call the toll free number and wait half an hour to hear, "Sorry about that, nothing we can do."

Now suddenly they have competition.  And I have to say, while it wasn't an instantaneous transformation, I think my cable company might be giving me some of the best customer service I've ever received.  I get compensated for when service is down, and when I sign up for a lower rate they're willing back-date it.  And the cable guy is right on time or I get compensated for my time.  WHAT?  Who are you and what have you done with Comcast?

See, the cable company didn't have to do any of that nice stuff.  They are doing so because they have incentives to make me like them (NOW).  WotC has incentives too, as we could always just go play shoots and ladders instead.

In summary, we have every right to dislike bad service, just as everyone is entitled to dislike their annoying cable company.  But if you get good service, that's a business decision on the company's part, not because there's any dangerous legal liability they're covering for.


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## P1NBACK (Sep 24, 2010)

Mad Hamish said:


> If I go to a movie and it fails to entertain me I'm not entitled to a refund on it.




This is kind of a whack analogy because I'm not being failed to be entertained. That's happened before with D&DI, no doubt. But, I didn't request my money back. How can I say something failed to entertain me, if that something isn't even there to begin with? 

What about if you go to the movie and half the movie is missing? Are you entitled to a refund then? 

"But! But! They never said they had to give you the WHOLE movie! There's no contractual obligation!"


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## Scribble (Sep 24, 2010)

Mad Hamish said:


> If something doesn't live up to your expectations you aren't entitled to a refund if it actually meets what was agreed to in the agreement. If I go to a movie and it fails to entertain me I'm not entitled to a refund on it.




Most movie theaters actually WILL give you your money back if you're upset enough about the film to ask for it. Not because of any sort of entitlement sure- It's just customer service. It takes a whole lot more effort to get a new customer then to keep an existing customer happy.

Customer/Company relationships are like pretty much any other relationship out there. Sometimes mistakes happen, one or the other party messes up, and people get upset. It's up to both parties to decide if the relationship is worth saving, and how best to go about it. 

Sometimes it involves simply explaining to the customer why whatever happened happened, and what you're doing to help keep it from happening again,  sometimes it's compensating them in some way, and sometimes it's explaining to them how they can avoid making a mistake in the future. There's not really a "right or wrong" way in customer service.

In this case it seems WoTC missed a deadline twice now, and so they are offering compensation for those who feel upset about it.  On their end I'm sure (at least hoping) they're working on plans to ensure it doesn't happen in the future.

Despite what some say, when push comes to shove WoTC seems to have pretty good customer service.


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## Shazman (Sep 24, 2010)

P1NBACK said:


> No really. I am. If I pay for a service/product and that product doesn't live up to my expectations, I return it or ask for a refund. That's called being a good consumer. Putting your money where your mouth is. Etc...
> 
> You're more than welcome to buy an inferior product. No one's arguing against you paying for September's D&D Insider offerings. So, why argue against those who feel like the product is inferior and would like a refund? It makes absolutely no sense outside of staunch fanboyism. Really.




Yeah, I don't understand the attitude of "I love this company so much, it's oaky if they rip me off."  I don't know any other way of describing that attitude, since calling it "fanboism" somehow gets you in trouble with the mods.


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## mudbunny (Sep 24, 2010)

Shazman said:


> Yeah, I don't understand the attitude of "I love this company so much, it's oaky if they rip me off."  I don't know any other way of describing that attitude, since calling it "fanboism" somehow gets you in trouble with the mods.




There are people out there who will say "Don't play Dark Sun, don't have a psionic character, and the Dragon articles don't interst me, so the lack of an update to the CB or MB don't affect me one slightest amount." There may be others who look at it and say "the amount of effort it takes to get to the webpage to ask for the refund, minimal as it is, is just not worth it to get a refund of only $x."


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## P1NBACK (Sep 24, 2010)

mudbunny said:


> There are people out there who will say "Don't play Dark Sun, don't have a psionic character, and the Dragon articles don't interst me, so the lack of an update to the CB or MB don't affect me one slightest amount." There may be others who look at it and say "the amount of effort it takes to get to the webpage to ask for the refund, minimal as it is, is just not worth it to get a refund of only ."




Mudbunny, those aren't the people we're talking about. We're talking about people who are accusing others of being "miserly" and trampling other's opinions for wanting a refund because they don't think we're "entitled". 

It's one thing to say, "Yeah. No big deal for me. I'm not gonna ask for a refund." 

It's another to say, "You don't deserve a refund. You're being miserly."

Know what I mean?


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## mudbunny (Sep 24, 2010)

Ahh, I missed that context.

My apologies.


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## Scribble (Sep 24, 2010)

Shazman said:


> Yeah, I don't understand the attitude of "I love this company so much, it's oaky if they rip me off."  I don't know any other way of describing that attitude, since calling it "fanboism" somehow gets you in trouble with the mods.




Well, personally it's not that "I love the company so much it's ok for them to rip me off..."

I think you're kind of taking things a bit to the extreme there based on someone not agreeing with you.

For me- It's that for the most part I've been happy with my service, and understand that sometimes mistakes happen, and deadlines are missed.   Companies are run by humans and humans are.. well human. They make mistakes- even more then once.

For my part the fact that it's related to a large update somewhat alleviates my annoyance.  (I can picture some poor guy getting a ton more stuff then he normally has to do dumped on him, and told- have at ye!)

If it starts to happen without any other large out of norm updates I will be upset.

If it happens again, I will probably be a bit more upset... It kind of shows lack of planning.

Right now- I find demanding a refund for one month out of my year for this would be overzealous... But to each his own. 

For the most part I think if the intentions were good, but the execution flawed, I get less upset then if the intentions were poor from the start.

In this case the intentions were good, so I'm less upset.

Inability to accept that sometimes mistakes are made seems kind of unreasonable to me.

Like I said before, a company/client relationship is like any other relationship, so it's not just one sided.


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## RLBURNSIDE (Sep 25, 2010)

I paid for my Dnd insider subscription until the end of september, wanting to wait until after the 21st to get the essentials update and see whether I thought it was worth it to get the red box or the new player's guide. 

Like all of you, I am pretty disappointed by it. I have an issue with those of you telling me it's just 5 bucks or whatever. I make a lot of money in my day job, but I work hard for it and I expect to get what I paid for. It's called integrity.

Don't tell me to look at the fine print and they're not legally responsible to give us updates to the builder each month. It's implied. It was on the schedule. It was delayed. So, extend our subscriptions by the length of the delay, if it causes those of us who are cut off to lose out. Simple enough solution.

I consider the october updates due to me for my september Dnd Insider account. 

I don't pay Wizards to sit on their asses and come up with excuses. If they're late, they still have to deliver or they will have lost me as a customer.

I have a real job too and I have to deliver or I get FIRED. That's how it works in the real world, ya know. If I'm late on finishing a piece of code I was supposed to finish, I stay late on my own time and make up for it. The same principle is involved here.

There are torrent sites out there. Either Wotc gives me an update for the alloted time I paid for, or I just get those updates another way. Period. 

Don't alienate your customer base with cheap bait and switch tactics. There are 16 pages in this thread to testify that enough people are po'd about this to speak up. Is this the kind of business Wotc wants to run?

Good faith transactions are a two-way street. I am perfectly happy to never pay another dime to Wizards' online services or their books for that matter which are obsoleted by their own errata within a month of their publication. Seriously, I can't trust a single word written in my PHB to be accurate. Forget about the adventurer's vault.

 This is exactly like the video games biz. I made games for a living, and when users complain they couldn't access a server and even play an offline game on PC because of some bug on the server, and therefore had to get a cd key off the net to play the game they purchased, then all the power to them. You are allowed to break into your own car.

You get to keep what you pay for...if the merchant doesn't deliver you can collect anyway. It's just basic common sense. Don't get the law involved, lawyers are not the answer. Petitions are not the answer.

Wotc, do the right thing now and extend everyone's Dnd Insider subscription for the builder updates for a month, to accommodate you falling behind your release schedule. Don't get all legal on us because if you treat your customers like your enemies they will just act that way and on top of that, collect what's rightfully theirs, and their dues anyway. It's a losing battle to vex people in this way.

Just because we were suckers enough to pay for a monthly fee in advance, doesn't mean we will let you get away with not delivering the goods. I don't care if others say there are articles, etc. that come with the insider account. I don't pay for those. I paid for access to builder updates, and if I don't get what I paid for, I'll just download them anyway _ad infinitum_. You decide.

I see some of you on this board would never speak up when you buy rotten milk, or pay for a magazine subscription for a year and get only 11. But for the rest of us who aren't suckers, we tend to not like being treated as such.


*Mod Edit*:  Guess what?  Insulting people who don't think like you do is rude, and will get you booted out of a thread!


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## Jack99 (Sep 25, 2010)

You might want to consider not calling people, who disagree with you, suckers.  Its not really a good basis for discussion. 

Either way, you are entitled to feel however you like, just like everyone else, but using a 16 page thread as evidence is just funny. I havent counted, but I am guessing you will find 15 people in this thread who have stated they feel entitled to get their money back. The rest of the thread is people who disagree, and a couple of posters who posted like 20 times or more.

Also, could you clarify your use of integrity? Made no sense to me.


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## Greven (Sep 25, 2010)

Not sure I see the big deal here: If you're unsatisfied with the level of service you're being provided(or not being provided, as the case may be), the most effective thing you can do is cancel your subscription, and tell them why. It's the right of every consumer in the US ( or Canada, as I am) to stop paying if you're unsatisfied, and they do notice these types of things. I work in reporting for a multi-million customer company, and these numbers affect business decisions at the top levels all the time. But TELL THEM WHY. You need a sharp increase in the column of their spreadsheet to make a difference.

If you only subscribed until September so you could get this update, they're willing to compensate you for that (and have to many people). Contact them for what you feel you're due, and if they agree they'll credit your account. A stock holder( is WotC publicly traded?) won't care if there's a million dollars in credits for a mistake given out, but they WILL care if their subscriber numbers stop growing or drop.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Sep 25, 2010)

It feels kinda odd that we want to tell people they shouldn't ask for refunds even if WotC is providing them if asked. 

I think it's not our job to decide how much customers use WotC customer service. That'S entirely a thing between the customer in question and WotC. 

I personally won't ask for a refund because I still feel I got what I payed for this month and do not find a month delay troublesome. I don't mind if some people feel otherwise. 
I am glad that WotC customer service is solid and helps these people. It kinda reinforce my choice in being their customer and not someone else's or no one's.


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## vagabundo (Sep 25, 2010)

Just to drop this in on the topic.

On the whole I am happy with DDI. I do think it is value for money. I do want WotC to continue to focus on improving the service; I think it is vital for the continued survival of DND as a hobby.


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## mudbunny (Sep 25, 2010)

RLBURNSIDE said:


> Don't tell me to look at the fine print and they're not legally responsible to give us updates to the builder each month. It's implied. It was on the schedule. It was delayed. So, extend our subscriptions by the length of the delay, if it causes those of us who are cut off to lose out. Simple enough solution.




You may not consider the legal fine print to mean anything, but WotC obviously does, otherwise they *would* be refunding everyone. As it is, WotC is providing refunds for people who ask for it. It is just a matter of contacting WotC customer service  and indicating that you want a refund. It may take a day or two, but I have yet to see someone ask for a refund and not get it.


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## Infiniti2000 (Sep 25, 2010)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> It feels kinda odd that we want to tell people they shouldn't ask for refunds even if WotC is providing them if asked.



 Everyone can do what they darn well please, but the answer to this is fairly easy.  If enough people complain about the issue and demand a refund for the month, then it may drive WotC to split up the monthly fee so that they will not refund a bigger amount of they expect this type of delay in the future.  And, that hurts all of us.


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## Dire Bare (Sep 26, 2010)

Infiniti2000 said:


> Everyone can do what they darn well please, but the answer to this is fairly easy.  If enough people complain about the issue and demand a refund for the month, then it may drive WotC to split up the monthly fee so that they will not refund a bigger amount of they expect this type of delay in the future.  And, that hurts all of us.




Eh, I'm not too worried about that.  I feel pretty comfortable assuming that the signal to noise ratio is pretty high on this one.  Lots of visible bitching on ENWorld and WotC's forums, but the number of people so upset to either request a refund and/or cancel their sub is probably pretty low.

Squeaky wheels and all . . .


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## renau1g (Sep 26, 2010)

Shazman said:


> Yeah, I don't understand the attitude of "I love this company so much, it's oaky if they rip me off."  I don't know any other way of describing that attitude, since calling it "fanboism" somehow gets you in trouble with the mods.




Yeah...I don't think anyone's saying that, but keep on with the WotC hate Sazzy... don't let facts get in the way, like always.


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## Holy Bovine (Sep 26, 2010)

epochrpg said:


> I just don't get why there are so many apologists here getting mad that someone says "well if they delayed my Sept. update, I should be allowed to delay my Sept. payment".  To me that sounds perfectly fair & reasonable.
> 
> I once subscribed to a magazine that was supposed to be 6 issues/year.  They ended up only putting out 4.  Guess what they did- they gave me the next two issues from the next year to honor their end of the subscription of 6 issues   what a concept.
> 
> Does this mean that everyone will get a free month added to the end of their DDI subscription?   Only time will tell...




Email them and ask for it.  It's not hard.


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## Aegeri (Sep 26, 2010)

As I've said before, I won't be asking for a refund but if this keeps up and the poor quality of the magazines continues I won't have to. This is because Wizards won't be getting my money in future.


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## JLant (Sep 26, 2010)

<Slightly off topic>

Brian, I looked up all the websites in your sig and I was *cryin'*, especially the cookbook analogy.

<more "on topic">

This thread has gotten a bit long so pardon me if I missed somebody saying the same thing. I typically do the a la carte model, updating the CB ~2-3 times per year. Of course, I missed the Essentials, Psionic Power and Dark Sun upgrades this round but I did get all the other updates since my last login. Personally, I appreciate the option to do things this way and applaud WOTC for offering it. I also appreciate that when I'm not actively subscribed, I can still use all the content. I do wish the same was true for the Compendium.

A question to those "in the know": why does WOTC do this kind of work "in house"? I purchased Hero Lab from Lone Wolf recently along with several data sets (Pathfinder, Savage Worlds and M&M2E to start) and found it as easy to use as the CB. For those not aware, the original purchase includes any updates of the original material (bug fixes, errata etc. ad infinitum) but newly released material is purchased separately. For example, for PF, the APG and Bestiary material were separate purchases.


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## Mad Hamish (Sep 26, 2010)

P1NBACK said:


> This is kind of a whack analogy because I'm not being failed to be entertained. That's happened before with D&DI, no doubt. But, I didn't request my money back. How can I say something failed to entertain me, if that something isn't even there to begin with?




Dragon, Dungeon etc are there. 
There was no guarantee of a monthly character builder update. 




P1NBACK said:


> What about if you go to the movie and half the movie is missing? Are you entitled to a refund then?
> 
> "But! But! They never said they had to give you the WHOLE movie! There's no contractual obligation!"




I don't recall people getting refunds for Kill Bill part 1...


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## renau1g (Sep 26, 2010)

Because Kill Bill Vol. 1 was awesome! Even if it was half a movie 

Funny story when LOTR came out, a buddy of mine came with a group of us to see it, he wasn't big into fantasy and had barely even heard of it. So the end of the Fellowship comes and he turns to me and asks "Is that it? Where's the ending..." to which I explained it's a trilogy, blah blah blah....


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## metaDM (Sep 27, 2010)

Does anyone else think it's fishy that there is no DDI update right when the new Essentials class book comes out? I stopped buying any player power books a long time ago. What's the point of buying them when you have DDI?

This seems like a convenient way to drive book sales by forcing people to go out and buy a copy of Heroes of the Fallen Lands. Plus some pencil pusher gets to point at graph in a slide deck and show how successful Essentials has been.


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## hafrogman (Sep 27, 2010)

metaDM said:


> Does anyone else think it's fishy that there is no DDI update right when the new Essentials class book comes out? I stopped buying any player power books a long time ago. What's the point of buying them when you have DDI?
> 
> This seems like a convenient way to drive book sales by forcing people to go out and buy a copy of Heroes of the Fallen Lands. Plus some pencil pusher gets to point at graph in a slide deck and show how successful Essentials has been.



I seriously doubt any such subterfuge, and if there was, it's VERY misguided.  I purchased Psionic Power and the Dark Sun Setting as soon as they were available.  Since I do build my characters using the character builder (Yes, paper and pencil are still available.  No, they are not actually useful ways to render 4E characters), I have been entirely unable to use them as resources.

In future, I will be far more cautious and delayed in purchasing D&D products.  I own zero essentials books, because I know I can't use them.  The effect is exactly the opposite of your hypothesis.


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## Jack99 (Sep 27, 2010)

metaDM said:


> Does anyone else think it's fishy that there is no DDI update right when the new Essentials class book comes out? I stopped buying any player power books a long time ago. What's the point of buying them when you have DDI?
> 
> This seems like a convenient way to drive book sales by forcing people to go out and buy a copy of Heroes of the Fallen Lands. Plus some pencil pusher gets to point at graph in a slide deck and show how successful Essentials has been.




Nope, it's just you, I think.


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## MrMyth (Sep 27, 2010)

metaDM said:


> Does anyone else think it's fishy that there is no DDI update right when the new Essentials class book comes out? I stopped buying any player power books a long time ago. What's the point of buying them when you have DDI?
> 
> This seems like a convenient way to drive book sales by forcing people to go out and buy a copy of Heroes of the Fallen Lands. Plus some pencil pusher gets to point at graph in a slide deck and show how successful Essentials has been.




The Essentials update isn't late, though. The _Dark Sun_ update got pushed back. The normal Essentials update wouldn't have hit until October anyway - they tried to incorporate it as part of the Dark Sun update when they first delayed that, then realized they couldn't do so. 

So... yeah, not seeing any real truth to this theory of yours, sorry.


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## metaDM (Sep 28, 2010)

Oh jeez. I thought it came out last month with all I've heard about it. Taking off my tin foil hat but I'm keeping it close by.


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## vagabundo (Sep 28, 2010)

metaDM said:


> Oh jeez. I thought it came out last month with all I've heard about it. Taking off my tin foil hat but I'm keeping it close by.




DONT TAKE IT OFF!!!

You'll be DOMINATED by WotC's enchanters and they will make you burn all your previous books...


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## iowyn (Oct 1, 2010)

Well, I don't Really believe that WOTC is delaying release of updates for book purchases... but.. it ironcially Does line up with shipments arriving to the other locations around the world as they aren't going out via space shuttle.
This could also explain the lack of 'excuse' and why the update doesn't appear on the October content either.

Just sayin - not complain'


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## Infiniti2000 (Oct 1, 2010)

iowyn said:


> ...as they aren't going out via space shuttle.



*Nothing*'s going out via space shuttle anymore.


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## ourchair (Oct 7, 2010)

renau1g said:


> Uhh.... I don't hate the magazines, Dungeon is a great resource for a time-strapped DM, and Dragon got at least _some_ interesting stuff in it just about every month.
> 
> You (and some people on the interwebs) =/= Everyone



I actually like the magazines.

I was merely providing a disclaimer for what I mistakenly perceived to be the inevitable "Dragon sucks, I'm not payin DDI for that!" which seems to get around them boards quite abit.


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## renau1g (Oct 7, 2010)

Ahh...I see...well...yeah I mean "Dragon sucks I'm not payin DDI for that"


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Oct 7, 2010)

metaDM said:


> Does anyone else think it's fishy that there is no DDI update right when the new Essentials class book comes out? I stopped buying any player power books a long time ago. What's the point of buying them when you have DDI?
> 
> This seems like a convenient way to drive book sales by forcing people to go out and buy a copy of Heroes of the Fallen Lands. Plus some pencil pusher gets to point at graph in a slide deck and show how successful Essentials has been.



I think the problem is that D&D Essentials breaks the 4E standard power format. A lot. 
I asume that necessitates a lot of changes to the software. Standard assumptions on what you gain by level are no longer true.


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## vagabundo (Oct 7, 2010)

I just rolled up a human slayer _ by hand!*_. Ooohh Ahhhh.

It was good fun, the essential character make this process pretty easy. And I wasn't tempted to go 'lectronic. 

Every cloud has a silver lining.

* I used the custom dice rolling method. 3d6 in order; below 8 gets to be 8;raise one stat to 16...


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## Walking Dad (Oct 7, 2010)

Anyone else not able to reach the wizards website?


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## Ryujin (Oct 7, 2010)

Walking Dad said:


> Anyone else not able to reach the wizards website?




No problems here.


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## Walking Dad (Oct 7, 2010)

Edit: Fixed the problem.. wedgeski, please delete your quote. By the way, face book and the like are still allowed.


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## wedgeski (Oct 7, 2010)

Walking Dad said:


> Thanks. Seems my university has banned wizards...



And so they should! Interfering busy-bodies, the lot of them.


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## DEFCON 1 (Oct 7, 2010)

You bigoted against wizards, wedgeski?  Spellcasters have the same rights to gainful employment in this country as anybody!  Shame on you sir!  SHAME!!!


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## Infiniti2000 (Oct 8, 2010)

DEFCON 1 said:


> You bigoted against wizards, wedgeski?  Spellcasters have the same rights to gainful employment in this country as anybody!  Shame on you sir!  SHAME!!!



 wedgeski isn't even *in* _this _country.


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## the Jester (Oct 8, 2010)

hafrogman said:


> (Yes, paper and pencil are still available.  No, they are not actually useful ways to render 4E characters)




I see this kind of comment a lot, and find it as amusing as it is inaccurate.

I ran a game from 1st to 17th level with 8-9 players where _nobody ever used the CB to make their character._ Not once, not to update, not to create, not for anything- despite the group having access to my account.

You know what? It worked fine.

YMMV, but if you don't find paper and pencil a useful way to render your 4e characters, perhaps you aren't trying hard enough. A few hints: The point of the pencil is what makes the marks, and if you make a mistake the gummy pink thing on the back end of it will remove them. The paper is _where_ you write stuff down. The dice are what you roll when you generate stats, and the books are where you find the rules.

Really, I swear, it's not that hard.


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## Infiniti2000 (Oct 8, 2010)

the Jester said:


> You know what? It worked fine.



 It worked.  But, "fine" is subjective.  Dial-up modems worked fine, but now that I have broadband I realize just how much dial-up modems suck.  The same thing, in my opinion, for the CB.  Now that I have the CB, paper/pencil does not work fine in a similar sense that chisel and stone doesn't work fine.


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## Renshai (Oct 8, 2010)

I really do grow tired of the pencil and paper crowd's attitude. Can you make characters with pencil and character sheets? Yes. Do I want to... NO! Did I pay for the luxury so that I don't have to.. yes I did and I would prefer if it WotC kept up its end of the bargain and provided timely updates. The news about online tools does nothing for me, how about using that team to help figure out how to make Essentials work with CB... 

I came back to 4E because of Essentials and how easy character creation and maintenance would be using the computer tools available with a DDI Subscription. Essentials is great, but I want the computer support already. I'm not unreasonable for expecting this, neither am I (or anyone else for that matter) unreasonable for wanting to use a computer based character generator over pencil and paper.


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## Ahrimon (Oct 8, 2010)

You can build custom elements into the CB.  I built a Mul (templar) SK pact warlock just fine.  The power cards aren't perfect.  They look like utility cards.  And sometimes you have to change some numbers manually.  But in the end you have a fully functioning character sheet.  The CB still does 90% of what you need it to do.  It's only a few power, feats or other numbers that need to be manually entered.

I call it the 90% solution.  80% being pencil and paper and 100% being a fully updated CB.


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## Moon_Goddess (Oct 9, 2010)

the Jester said:


> The dice are what you roll when you generate stats,




Really, not sure your playing the same game as me then, we don't use any dice while creating characters.


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## Anaro (Dec 5, 2010)

True_Blue said:


> and my dapper devil tokens.




Thanks for mentioning dapper devil!  I'd never seen their products before - very cool.


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## SteveC (Dec 6, 2010)

the Jester said:


> I see this kind of comment a lot, and find it as amusing as it is inaccurate.
> 
> I ran a game from 1st to 17th level with 8-9 players where _nobody ever used the CB to make their character._ Not once, not to update, not to create, not for anything- despite the group having access to my account.
> 
> ...



I'd say for some definition of "easy," and "characters" this statement is true. There are currently well over 1000 feats, split over a couple dozen rulebooks and over two years of dragon magazines.

Using the old character builder, I can see every feat for a class or race in 30 seconds, and plan appropriately. Doing so with only paper and pencil would be an... interesting exercise. The same is true for powers, and even moreso for items for your wishlists.

So I'd say that if you want to create a simple character and use only core options, the paper and pencil method can work just fine. Trying that while attempting to view all of your available options is something I could definitely do, but why on earth would I? How long does it take to look up all of the level 8 magic weapon enchantments that can be applied to a dagger (something I recently did when designing a level 7 rogue)? Character builder? A minute, tops. By hand? Good luck with that.

--Steve


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## Grabuto138 (Dec 6, 2010)

SteveC said:


> I'd say for some definition of "easy," and "characters" this statement is true. There are currently well over 1000 feats, split over a couple dozen rulebooks and over two years of dragon magazines.
> 
> Using the old character builder, I can see every feat for a class or race in 30 seconds, and plan appropriately. Doing so with only paper and pencil would be an... interesting exercise. The same is true for powers, and even moreso for items for your wishlists.
> 
> ...




Did you play 3rd edition? There was plenty of content. Character creation could be very complicated because there were (it seems to me) more options to modify your attack and damage, plus situational bonuses, DC modifications, potentially multiple prestige classes, wild multiclassing combos and the various related options etc. I managed using just pencil and paper. I prefer the OCB, but but I am not sure it is all that onerous a task to make 4e character by hand.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Dec 6, 2010)

The way I see it, the task isn't all that onerous.  Do it enough times and you won't have to look it up at all.  However its unquestionably faster (at least short term) with some computer power behind it...but what isn't?


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## ourchair (Dec 6, 2010)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> The way I see it, the task isn't all that onerous.  Do it enough times and you won't have to look it up at all.  However its unquestionably faster (at least short term) with some computer power behind it...but what isn't?



Exactly.

I know some of us don't like the idea of gaming that requires some math homework, but I think it's akin to learning how to do arithmetic without a calculator. 

Sure, you can compute some problems faster with one, but after a while it gets easy enough to do without one. Heck it's all adding and subtracting. Multiplication and division is scarcely a factor in 4e.


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## Jhaelen (Dec 6, 2010)

Grabuto138 said:


> Did you play 3rd edition? There was plenty of content. Character creation could be very complicated because there were (it seems to me) more options to modify your attack and damage, plus situational bonuses, DC modifications, potentially multiple prestige classes, wild multiclassing combos and the various related options etc. I managed using just pencil and paper.



Well, yeah. I did too. However, it took me about a _week_ to create a spellcasting pc in the mid to high levels. Not really something I enjoyed doing.


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## Mapache (Dec 6, 2010)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> The way I see it, the task isn't all that onerous.  Do it enough times and you won't have to look it up at all.  However its unquestionably faster (at least short term) with some computer power behind it...but what isn't?




For me, the looking up is the entire process of building the character.  That's the value the character builder brings to the table, not the fact that is automatically does some piddly addition.  I have a 6th-level fighter.  He already has options (race, class features, powers or feats) from Players Handbook, Players Handbook 2, Players Handbook 3, Martial Power, Martial Power 2, Dark Sun Campaign Setting, Heroes of the Fallen Lands, and two issues of Dragon. His equipment adds in Adventurer's Vault 1 & 2.  Trying to sort through that pile of stuff without an automated search engine would be ludicrous.  I could build a character with the online compendium and cut-and-paste; the CB just automates this process.  I simply would not build a character by hand.


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## fanboy2000 (Dec 6, 2010)

1. Having a character builder is good.

2. Offline building doesn't bother me. 

Here's the deal for me. If I'm playing a barbarian, then I'm fine only using the PHB 2 and Primal Power. If I'm missing a power or feat from Dragon, the miniatures, or some other odd source, I'm fine with that. I'm fine with a limited choice for equipment too. Why? I assume that, as the game progresses, I'll get equipment from the adventuring so I'm not stuck with what's available at character creation. Also, I assume that if there's something really good out there, I'll learn about it during the course of the campaign and can either take it when I level, or retrain. 

The only time when I might want to evaluate _every_ option is when I want to make an optimized character. But even then, I'd just go to the Character Optimization boards and look at the guide for my class and call it a day.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Dec 7, 2010)

> Trying to sort through that pile of stuff without an automated search engine would be ludicrous.




Ludicrous?  Not a word I'd use in this situation.

Then again, I've always been willing to do that kind of research for any given PC in any given RPG...it doesn't bug me at all.

Again, I concede that a computer driven search is _faster_, but the task itself is not intrinsically "ludicrous."


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## ourchair (Dec 7, 2010)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Again, I concede that a computer driven search is _faster_, but the task itself is not intrinsically "ludicrous."



I totally understand what you mean.

Depending on the individual, the automation that the CB provides does not necessarily inflate the burden of pencil and paper generation nor do skilled 'pencil and paper'-capable builders necessarily imply that the CB is a needless tool.

The truth of one statement does not necessarily render the other fallacious.


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## Goonalan (Dec 8, 2010)

I hear what's being said here but things have moved on in... Grimsby (Wah?)

I have (DM) two full time games and an on-and-off game.

Game 1 Round-the-table-swearing-and-drinking.

One player has PH1, none of the other players have any 'books', I think two of the players have DDI subscription- the players have been playing since the start of 2010, prior to that only one of them had ever played D&D (or any other RPG) previously. The youngest is 28 (I think) the oldest is 50+, as I say no books- never built a character other than on-line.

Game 2 Via Maptools, hoary-old skool RPGers from around the globe.

All players have minimum ten years or so experience with D&D and RPGs, most of them have the Players Handbook, one of them (Simon) has lots of other books (he DM/Plays in something like four games/week). All of the players have DM'ed or been players in other campaigns while our Maptools game has been ongoing. I'd say they own, even including Simon's collection, on avergae 2-3 hardback books each.

Game 3 The sons and daughters of Game 1

They have never seen a single book, that's not true, they've seen them- even looked at a few of the pictures, but they don't know the rules, haven't read them, and are not interested in doing so- average age of this group is however about 11. They don't read much however, that's not to say they're not bright kids- they don't interact with the world via written text that's all.

My point is tech rules, I wish it were otherwise, but here in the cutting edge silicon valley that is Grimsby, well none of my players have access to 'all' the books they need, mostly not even 'some' of the books they need. Most of my players have never read any of the books- most of my players don't want to read any of the books. And I want you to know that this has been the case since 1E, one of us had a box set- the other guys were players, I can remember back through 5-10 campaigns (each lasting a year or more), in which I (the DM) was the only guy to actually own one/any/some of the books.

Lastly, I don't own a mobile phone, I'm not sure what buttons to press on the DVD remote control, I only learnt how to copy and paste on a Mac (after owning one for eight years- for work) about a year ago (although I think I've forgotten again- Apple C & Apple V- is that it?).

And while I could make a PC without the CB, I would pay money- far more money than I am already, to avoid doing so. My players on the other hand wouldn't know where to start (90% of them), not that they own the books.

Welcome to Grimsby, the age of enlightenment starts here...

At times it makes me sad, I think Bill Hicks said it best-

"Whatchyer readin' for? Why don'tcher jus' flip on the tube?"

Books (and I have an MA in English, and rooms full of them) that's so last century...

Alas.

Cheers Goonalan.


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## Mapache (Dec 8, 2010)

Goonalan said:


> Books (and I have an MA in English, and rooms full of them) that's so last century...




For reference works, books are a terrible medium.  You want random access, full search, and ubiquitous access to any reference work that might be useful.  Electronic text is much, much better at this.  The real world basically sucks as a place to store indices.  Card catalogs were laborious to use compared to a database and offered less functionality because each index you wanted required duplicating the entire card catalog.

For books that you read front-to-back, such as fiction and essays, then paper books are great.  They require no infrastructure to use,  and carrying around the single one you're currently interested in is not a physical burden.


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## renau1g (Dec 8, 2010)

Ummmmm, has anyone seen the update for the CB? I run it and there's not any options for the classes from HoTFK.


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## Zaran (Dec 8, 2010)

renau1g said:


> Ummmmm, has anyone seen the update for the CB? I run it and there's not any options for the classes from HoTFK.




I don't think the CB got an update.  They just updated the Compendium.


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## renau1g (Dec 8, 2010)

Oh...my bad. I realized after re-reading Trevor's post they were going to hope to soon get it updated. Unless they don't and then they'll enjoy their holidays


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