# Footwork Lure + Polearm Momentum = At-Will Knock Prone?



## Cryptos (Nov 22, 2008)

This may not be what's intended (more on that later), but per RAW it looks like you could get an at-will ability to knock opponents prone as a level 1 Fighter.

Here's how it breaks down:



			
				PHB said:
			
		

> *Melee Weapon:* A melee attack power that has a range of "weapon" allows you to attack a target within the reach of the weapon you're wielding.





			
				Martial Power said:
			
		

> *Footwork Lure*
> Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage.  You can shift 1 square and *slide the target into the space you left.*





			
				Martial Power said:
			
		

> *Polearm Momentum*
> Benefit: Whenever you use a polearm or a spear attack to push or slide a target *two or more squares*, you can also knock that target prone at the end of the forced movement.




Now, at first glance it seems that obviously the intent was to have an at-will power that allows you to move one square and slide your opponent one square into the one you left to create flanking opportunities.  But per RAW, as reach weapons would allow you to attack a foe two squares from your position, it seems you could slide them two squares with this power while you shift one.  By sliding the target two squares, you knock them prone.  

And it does seem odd that after a search of the PHB and Martial Power, I didn't see any 2+ squares slide or pull powers for the Fighter from 1-9, yet Polearm Momentum is a Heroic Tier feat.  After a quick pass through the powers it seems like Footwork Lure is the only Heroic Fighter power that would work with the feat.

Could they have really intended this?  It's not immediately apparent until you go looking to make a certain build and go looking for feats to support it, but there it is.


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## cmbarona (Nov 22, 2008)

Looks viable to me. And for that matter, whether or not it's intended, it looks to be in line with the rest of the Martial Power stuff: lots of candy for everyone!


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## MyISPHatesENWorld (Nov 22, 2008)

The following add 1 square to the distance of a push::
Gauntlets of the Ram (Lvl8)
Controlling Weapon (Lvl8)
Rushing Cleats(Lvl7)

So Tide of Iron plus any of the items above also gets you an at-will knock prone. It seems pretty likely they were aware of at least one if not all of those items... Hard to imagine it isn't intended. At Paragon, you can pick up Spear Push and do it without an item.


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## Ibixat (Nov 22, 2008)

This ability does cost you 15 dex and 15 wis though, which is a pretty heavy cost in attributes


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## Thanee (Nov 22, 2008)

And being knocked prone isn't _that_ bad really... more close to inconvenient.

Bye
Thanee


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## Bagpuss (Nov 22, 2008)

Thanee said:


> And being knocked prone isn't _that_ bad really... more close to inconvenient.




Unless they are setting you up for a Rogue. But I agree the stat requirements for the feat make it unlikely to be worth taking until at least Paragon Tier, where knocking prone becomes generally easier for a Fighter anyway.


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## Thanee (Nov 22, 2008)

Flanking does that, too, and is likewise easy to set up.

Bye
Thanee


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## Ibixat (Nov 22, 2008)

Thanee said:


> Flanking does that, too, and is likewise easy to set up.
> 
> Bye
> Thanee




I'll tell you how it plays out, I may actually play this build today, I'm not sure if it should be a battlerager or great weapon fighter build though, I think battlerager allows for the change to spear and shield at later levels while using glaive at first level.  Though to be fair I may stick with glaive because of the awesome that HBO becomes with push 2 knockdown as part of it.  It brings some new meaning to sticky when you can OA and force prone.


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## Thanee (Nov 22, 2008)

It's definitely great to keep people where they are (at least roughly ).

Bye
Thanee


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## Ibixat (Nov 22, 2008)

A staggering weapon would be easy to get too at lower level, but it only affects slides

Critical: +1d6 damage per plus, and the target is knocked prone.
Property: When you use a power with the weapon keyword that slides a target, you can add this weapon’s enhancement bonus to the number of squares the target slides.

Though it does key in with the prone on crit to the builds idea.

Althought for a multiclass rogue/fighter, the trick strike daily makes it too funny.  

Effect: Until the end of the encounter, each time you hit the target you slide it 1 square.

It's the effect line so hit or miss any time you hit that guy the rest of the fight you can slide him and knock prone.


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## Danceofmasks (Nov 22, 2008)

Knocking 'em prone is meh ... knocking 'em prone _after_ sliding 'em 2 squares is absolutely fantastic.

Too bad it has to be a polearm or spear ... if you could do it with a whip or somesuch, you could yell out "get over here!"
ahem.


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## Ibixat (Nov 22, 2008)

Danceofmasks said:


> Knocking 'em prone is meh ... knocking 'em prone _after_ sliding 'em 2 squares is absolutely fantastic.
> 
> Too bad it has to be a polearm or spear ... if you could do it with a whip or somesuch, you could yell out "get over here!"
> ahem.




I'm not even looking at it as being really all that super powerful of a character build, I'm hoping it's fun is all, I think I am going to be playing it today though, we are playing 3 sets today and my cleric can only fit in 1 before he gets too high to run through FR1 which we are using him in, and my rogue, well I want to at least try something new, the rogue is just made of fun, and two fisted shooter feat just makes me giggle.  Drow rogue with a D8 Damage offhand one handed free-load crossbow that gets a free non OA provoking ranged attack any time I crit with either weapon I carry.


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## Cryptos (Nov 22, 2008)

Ibixat said:


> I'll tell you how it plays out, I may actually play this build today, I'm not sure if it should be a battlerager or great weapon fighter build though, I think battlerager allows for the change to spear and shield at later levels while using glaive at first level.  Though to be fair I may stick with glaive because of the awesome that HBO becomes with push 2 knockdown as part of it.  It brings some new meaning to sticky when you can OA and force prone.




I was considering Battle Rager, but went with Two-Handed Weapon specialty for the +1 to hit because of the high stat requirements.  

I already had a plan to make an Elf polearm fighter, who was once part of a group of elvish defenders using leafblade-shaped glaives to defend eleven settlements.  The desire to check out this combo at lower level just caused me to dump 13s into Wis and Dex instead of 12s.  From there, Dex and Wis should be high enough to let them ride on the +1 to all increases and provide good bonuses for secondary effects, skills, and so forth; and assigned stat increases can make up for lower initial STR and CON.

The stat requirements make it a concept that probably isn't very good for standard meat-shielding.  But my thinking is that a fighter like this would position themselves well in front of the more tempting but squishy targets in a party, catching and dragging foes back who run past to attack, say, a wizard character.  I'm also interested in including plenty of mobility so that a character like this could shift around the battlefield with a rogue waiting in the wings.  Footwork Lure's movement alone helps create flanking opportunities, knocking them prone goes further to ensure CA, and make it hard for an enemy to get out of CA.  

It will involve a lot of shifting powers, and some that allow the fighter to take advantage of CA or flanking, as well, with some minion-sweeping elements.  Then as a rogue moves safely across the battlefield, they have a fighter that can safely keep up.


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## Rechan (Nov 22, 2008)

With the recent article for Polearm warlords, it isn't a bad option for a Warlord to take. Also, with Opening Shove, you push a target 1 square; it's acquirable.


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## kerbarian (Nov 22, 2008)

Thanee said:


> And being knocked prone isn't _that_ bad really... more close to inconvenient.




If you knock a melee combatant prone two squares away from the nearest enemy, it's almost as good as a stun.  They can stand up, but then they're too far away to attack and too close to charge.  They do have the option to charge past the nearest enemy to someone else, but if that nearest enemy is a fighter, they'll probably take an OA and be stopped in their tracks.

It's unfortunate that this combo always results in the prone enemy being adjacent to you, since that's not nearly as debilitating.  If you start your turn in position to use the footwork lure, though, you could pull the enemy, knock him prone, and then shift away.


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## kerbarian (Nov 22, 2008)

Ibixat said:


> A staggering weapon would be easy to get too at lower level, but it only affects slides




I'm not sure what happens when you add a square to a power that slides a target to a specific destination (the space you left), rather than a number of squares.  I don't think it would do anything.

Also, exactly how flexible is "slide the target into the space you left"?  Say you're attacking with a reach weapon over a line of allies.  Can you then slide the target several squares, around the end of the line of allies, into the square you left?  It doesn't make sense, but it appears to be legal by the RAW.

If you're fighting a large or larger enemy, can you slide him extra squares to get a different part of him into the space you left (rather than the nearest square of him)?

Both of those issues would be solved if Footwork Lure were pull rather than slide.  I can't think of a good reason for it to be slide other than to allow it to work with Polearm Momentum.


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## Danceofmasks (Nov 22, 2008)

The reason for it to be a slide is:

You could decide to shift forwards, and then pull wouldn't be legal to force yer target into the square you left.


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## muchan (Nov 23, 2008)

The real power of this combo is when you combine it with a Glaive, HBO, Polearm Gambit, and Trickster's Blade Style. With this, you can slide your target 2 and knock it prone when they trigger Polearm Gambit! This can potentially make you ubersticky and incredibly annoying to enemies that decide to close with you (which they will since you were smart and took Daunting Challenge, right?).


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## kerbarian (Nov 23, 2008)

muchan said:


> The real power of this combo is when you combine it with a Glaive, HBO, Polearm Gambit, and Trickster's Blade Style. With this, you can slide your target 2 and knock it prone when they trigger Polearm Gambit! This can potentially make you ubersticky and incredibly annoying to enemies that decide to close with you (which they will since you were smart and took Daunting Challenge, right?).



I don't think you need Trickster's Blade, since the OA happens before the movement that triggers it -- when the enemy is still two squares away.

That is a pretty amazing combo -- I just hate giving up the greatspear for a glaive, since you lose +1 to hit and Rain of Blows.


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## muchan (Nov 23, 2008)

kerbarian said:


> I don't think you need Trickster's Blade, since the OA happens before the movement that triggers it -- when the enemy is still two squares away.
> 
> That is a pretty amazing combo -- I just hate giving up the greatspear for a glaive, since you lose +1 to hit and Rain of Blows.




It really depends on how you interpret when Polearm Gambit kicks in. The feat itself states that it triggers when an opponent _enters_an adjacent square, not when an opponent _leaves_ as square. To be entering a new square, the opponent would have to have already, then, left a previous square. Even though OA's are essential interupts, I'd argue that the opponent is thus no longer two squares away when you use Footwork Lure as there is no such thing as being "in-between" squares in 4th Ed. By entering the adjacent square, the opponent is no longer in the non-adjacent square anymore when the OA triggers. Furthermore, nothing in the above combo is going to stop the opponent from entering the adjacent square and without Trickster's Blade, you will only be sliding the opponent 1 square.

Now, if Polearm Gambit triggered when the opponent _left_ its square, then I'd be inclined to agree with you as the opponent would still be 2 squares away when the OA hit.

Still, as I said, it depends on how PG is interpreted and if you're group plays it differently, then you get to save a feat and some MAD!

As for glaive v. greatspear, being an elf mitigates that +1 loss and since this combo works as an OA, getting Wis to hit more than makes up for it. If you want to prioritize damage, make sure to be a Pit Fighter and pick up Marked Scourge for 2xWis to damage. Heck, be Dragonborn to grab Draconic Arrogance for another +Str to damage and multiclass Ranger for Master of the Hunt for another +Wis to damage. Suddenly Footwork Lure 2d8+2xStr+3xWis and knocks prone even before figuring in magic items. That'll teach badguys to come near you!


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## Ibixat (Nov 23, 2008)

I fired up my Elven glaive user last night and I ran into a few problems.

Stat wise I went with
Str 16
Con 15
Dex 15
Int 8
Wis 15
Cha 10

maybe I should have gone for 18 strength and 10 con, but as a fighter I am not sure how I'd feel about 10 con.  Maybe if I took a home region that allowed me to use Wis for hp instead of con, but I'd still be short on surges that way.

Was playing in an RPGA game and we did play high tier, so I was basically useless, I couldn't hit a damn thing, not that it would have been much better at low tier even with an extra +1.  The problem was that everything I had targeted AC and the stuff we were fighting was all 20-23 ac, I think it would have only been 18-21 at low tier but still it was pretty harsh, with my total +5 to attacks, at least on OA's I had +7.  I was able to get bonuses a few times or flanking but we had no rogue for me to flank buddy up with, and when I did hit the combo was pretty cool.  I think a lower con would have made being a battlerager pointless, which I'm actually thinking is pointless for me to begin with, though the temp HP were too tempting to ignore at first, they did save me a few times too as well, getting con mod temps every time you take melee damage is a fairly decent thing, though I think the +1 to hit from great weapon fighter may have been more helpfull.  Since we played high tier I did get a suit of +2 dwarven chainmail (finemail actually) but by rpga rules I gotta wait till 3rd to be able to equip it.  

I think the character has some potential, and will start to do better once I get him some magic and play something closer to the proper level range, a level 1 on a high tier 1-4 band mod really is going to suck unless they are a rogue who has like +9 attack bonus at level 1 and can attack something other than AC.


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## teruokun (Nov 30, 2008)

*Combine with a polearm tactical warlord*

My friend and I are playing a polearm duo that trained together and have ended up with a pretty fun combo (both lvl 12, using a glaive, heavy blade opportunity, polearm gambit, my character with polearm master path).  The strategy involves my character (elven great weapon fighter) always trying to stay adjacent to his character (eladrin tactical warlord).

1) If an enemy runs up adjacent to me (or both): Polearm gambit -> footwork lure (swipe)-> I shift to another square adjacent to the warlord, enemy is slid next to warlord -> warlord's polearm gambit -> opening shove -> enemy knocked away and now prone with the most it can do is get up (without an AP) -> I get another swipe at something in range.
2) If an enemy runs up to attack the warlord and not adjacent to me: Polearm gambit -> opening shove (with rushing cleats and a controlling halberd) -> enemy knocked away and prone with the most it can do is get up (without an AP) and if anything is within range of me, I swipe (2d4+10).

Because we have a small party (us and an artful dodger), this kind of auto-knocking prone plus the addition of granting melee combat advantage versus for our rogue is a nice plus.

This was just what we were going to try for so far and we honestly weren't trying to minmax a lot, we just ended up seeing these feats and abilities and thought it would be a fun way to use polearm tactics while playing with a small group.


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## Hypersmurf (Nov 30, 2008)

muchan said:


> It really depends on how you interpret when Polearm Gambit kicks in. The feat itself states that it triggers when an opponent _enters_an adjacent square, not when an opponent _leaves_ as square. To be entering a new square, the opponent would have to have already, then, left a previous square. Even though OA's are essential interupts, I'd argue that the opponent is thus no longer two squares away when you use Footwork Lure as there is no such thing as being "in-between" squares in 4th Ed.




Like you say, there's no such thing as being in between squares.

The trigger for the opportunity attack is "opponent enters an adjacent square".  An opportunity action interrupts the triggering action - it occurs before the triggering action resolves.  So the attack happens before "opponent enters an adjacent square" resolves; he has not yet finished entering the adjacent square, and since there is no such thing as being in between squares, until he finishes entering the adjacent square, he is two squares away.

At the time the OA occurs, the opponent is two squares away.

-Hyp.


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## Bagpuss (Dec 1, 2008)

muchan said:


> The real power of this combo is when you combine it with a Glaive, HBO, Polearm Gambit, and Trickster's Blade Style. With this, you can slide your target 2 and knock it prone when they trigger Polearm Gambit! This can potentially make you ubersticky and incredibly annoying to enemies that decide to close with you (which they will since you were smart and took Daunting Challenge, right?).




Do you mean Polearm Gamble?

Since you would be using Footwork Lure on your turn you can't use Polearm Gamble when you shift them close to you as it grants an Opportunity Attack, and you can't take them on your own turn. 

Unless Tricker's Blade Style lets you make Opportunity Attacks in your own turn (I don't have the text for that).


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## Bond James Bond (Dec 1, 2008)

Thanee said:


> And being knocked prone isn't _that_ bad really... more close to inconvenient.




But getting up from prone still costs you your movement action, or did I miss something?

Thus by knocking sombody prone, and making sure that nobody is in range for a charge you deny him all melee attack options. He can get up, and that`s about it. Turn lost.

Now, for your average soldier or brute without a viabale range attack this is huge. Even if he still can charge somebody, it seriously hurts his attack options.

To me, knocking someone prone with an at will and two feats is just not balanced at all.


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## Majoru Oakheart (Dec 1, 2008)

Bond said:


> But getting up from prone still costs you your movement action, or did I miss something?
> 
> Thus by knocking sombody prone, and making sure that nobody is in range for a charge you deny him all melee attack options. He can get up, and that`s about it. Turn lost.
> 
> ...




Except using this combination, the enemy ALWAYS ends up prone next to you, since you slide them into the space you just shifted out of.  So they spend a move action to get up then a standard action hitting you.  All you manage to do is prevent the enemy from attacking anyone except you.  Which is a pretty good method of being a defender.


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## Bagpuss (Dec 1, 2008)

Bond said:


> To me, knocking someone prone with an at will and two feats is just not balanced at all.




It's one feat. Oh and crippling your primary attack stat or waiting until Paragon/Epic levels.


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## Diirk (Dec 3, 2008)

Majoru Oakheart said:


> Except using this combination, the enemy ALWAYS ends up prone next to you, since you slide them into the space you just shifted out of.  So they spend a move action to get up then a standard action hitting you.  All you manage to do is prevent the enemy from attacking anyone except you.  Which is a pretty good method of being a defender.




Unless you say, shift 1 square as a move action after using footwork lure. Just a radical thought.


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## Ibixat (Dec 3, 2008)

Diirk said:


> Unless you say, shift 1 square as a move action after using footwork lure. Just a radical thought.




If you shift from them they will stand up and probably charge someone else in your party making the tactic less than sticky.


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## Mistwell (Mar 27, 2009)

muchan said:


> It really depends on how you interpret when Polearm Gambit kicks in. The feat itself states that it triggers when an opponent _enters_an adjacent square, not when an opponent _leaves_ as square. To be entering a new square, the opponent would have to have already, then, left a previous square. Even though OA's are essential interupts, I'd argue that the opponent is thus no longer two squares away when you use Footwork Lure as there is no such thing as being "in-between" squares in 4th Ed. By entering the adjacent square, the opponent is no longer in the non-adjacent square anymore when the OA triggers. Furthermore, nothing in the above combo is going to stop the opponent from entering the adjacent square and without Trickster's Blade, you will only be sliding the opponent 1 square.
> 
> Now, if Polearm Gambit triggered when the opponent _left_ its square, then I'd be inclined to agree with you as the opponent would still be 2 squares away when the OA hit.
> 
> ...




FAQ resolves this question now:

http://wizards.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/...p?p_faqid=1396



> 27. Where is the target of your attack when you make an opportunity attack because of Polearm gamble?
> 
> An opportunity attack interrupts the action that triggers it, so when you make the opportunity attack, the target is in the square it's leaving, assuming that square is within your melee reach.


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