# The Elfish Gene - Another attack on gamers



## Zander (Dec 21, 2006)

I read this entry over at amazon: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Elfish-Gene-Dungeons-Dragons-Growing/dp/1405091266

Doesn't look flattering. A entire book dedicated to making fun of D&D gamers.  :\


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Dec 21, 2006)

Oh, have a sense of humor already.


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## prosfilaes (Dec 21, 2006)

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> Oh, have a sense of humor already.




It's funny to be the constant target of abuse labeled as humor?


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## hopeless (Dec 21, 2006)

*Reg: The Elfish Gene?*

Hmm... okay I give what the heck is this about?

A humorish take on roleplayers involved in dungeons and dragons from the perspective of someon in Coventry...

Well I suppose someone had to write it... anyone want to express their views on this?


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## Grymar (Dec 21, 2006)

I have no problem with some humor at our expense.  Let's face it, some of us really deserve it.


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## Hussar (Dec 21, 2006)

> "For many boys who grew up in the 70s and 80s, our peer group and education constituted a sort of wanker factory. This is the story of the operation of its most efficient department." Mark Barrowcliffe has a shameful secret. He spent his entire youth hiding from the grungy tedium of Coventry, in an imaginary world of elfs, dwarfs and magicians: he was a "Dungeons and Dragons" fanatic. In this very sharp, very funny memoir, Mark recounts these troubled years, when he knew more about how to kill a dragon than talk to a girl. With a cast of comically awful fellow obsessives, this is a story that enters the daft, twilight world of male adolescent imagination, and with great wit, self-deprication - and not a little poignancy - rips the piss out of it. 'Sharp and funny' - "Loaded". 'Hilarious ...[Barrowcliffe] is an assured stylist with a lively wit' - "Independent". 'A Natural chronicler of the love lorn male' - "The Times".




HOw is this an attack on gamers when it's written about how a gamer had problems growing up as a gamer?  Like none of us ever hid our hobby?  Like none of us ever felt kinda weirded out when people asked us what we did on a Saturday afternoon?  Looks an awful lot like the Forty Year Old Virgin to me.


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## Kormydigar (Dec 21, 2006)

prosfilaes said:
			
		

> It's funny to be the constant target of abuse labeled as humor?




There is a huge difference between the hobby being attacked from someone who has never played and doesn't know what they are are talking about, and a gamer (or former gamer) writing about actual experiences and poking a little fun at himself or herself. The former can be ignored as ignorant drivel while the latter may actually be a fun read ( depending on the talent of the writer).


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## Sound of Azure (Dec 21, 2006)

...and?

I fail to see how this is any different to books poking fun at men, women, blondes, stamp collectors, cricket fans or hairdressers.

Are roleplayers so special that no one can have a giggle at us except ourselves?

It remains to be seen whether there is any malicious intent in the book. Let us not overreact.


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## Ashrum the Black (Dec 21, 2006)

Constant target? 

Wow, I don't think I've been a constant target of anything in a long time. Except for maybe my wifes annoyance at all of my hobbies.   

Seriously though, the book appears to a coming of age story with the backdrop of humor that would appeal to folks such as other gamers. Sounds fine to me. 

I mean we are a pretty funny group by and large. Where else can you have a serious discussion with somebody that wants to create an 8th level spell that unleashes a swarm of flying firebreathing psionic zombie squirrels? Comedy gold I tell you.   

(yes, one of the folks in a campaign I'm playing in right now is getting me to critique this very spell for him. I think he's trying to make the DM's head spin, but what are you gonna do? )


-Ashrum


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## Ampolitor (Dec 21, 2006)

*lol*



			
				Hussar said:
			
		

> HOw is this an attack on gamers when it's written about how a gamer had problems growing up as a gamer?
> 
> 
> 
> you right, you guys didnt read the entire description, its about a guys childhood. Don't be so quick to jump!


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## Nifft (Dec 21, 2006)

Sound of Azure said:
			
		

> I fail to see how this is any different to books poking fun at men, women, blondes, stamp collectors, cricket fans or hairdressers




Cricket has fans? Like, actual living ones?

Anyway... like others have said, the write up makes it look more like a memoir than a thinly veiled attack, so it could be good fun... if anything, I expect the attacks on the UK education system to be the scathing part.

Cheers, -- N


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## Scribble (Dec 21, 2006)

Sound of Azure said:
			
		

> Are roleplayers so special that no one can have a giggle at us except ourselves?




Well... most gamers I know do also collect large amounts of weapons... So might not want to giggle at them too much...


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## el-remmen (Dec 21, 2006)

Ooh, I want this!


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## 6pakofdwarves (Dec 21, 2006)

Zander said:
			
		

> I read this entry over at amazon: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Elfish-Gene-Dungeons-Dragons-Growing/dp/1405091266
> 
> Doesn't look flattering. A entire book dedicated to making fun of D&D gamers.  :\




I dunno, it looks good to me. It is about the Authors childhood, in which he was awkward and played DnD. Sounds like a lot of guys I know. Don't see how this makes fun of anyone....
I think you may be just a bit sensitive...... Maybe reading the book would be cathartic for you?


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## Scribble (Dec 21, 2006)

I dunno what's up with his experience... I mean I remember my childhood when they found out I gamed, all the other children lifted me up on their shoulders and said three cheers to the greatest chap in the land! And then all the girls wanted to date me!

It happened just like that I swear.. Except replace the first part with "called me a dork" and the second part with "thought I was a dork."


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## Zander (Dec 21, 2006)

6pakofdwarves said:
			
		

> I dunno, it looks good to me. It is about the Authors childhood, in which he was awkward and played DnD. Sounds like a lot of guys I know. Don't see how this makes fun of anyone....



Apparently, D&D is a "shameful" game played by "comically awful... obsessives". 

At a time when the hobby needs new blood, having disparaging descriptions of gamers in the media, whether they're true or not, doesn't help to keep the game alive.


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## Fishbone (Dec 21, 2006)

Just Dungeons and Dragons related merchandise is a 30 million dollar a year money maker, it isn't going anywhere. 
Now if you'll excuse me I have to watch television, where pretty and rich people will be extolling the virtures of WoW and this season of Battlestar Gallactica.
I see gaming in for a really big comeback.
Edit:As if it ever left.


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## 6pakofdwarves (Dec 21, 2006)

Zander said:
			
		

> Apparently, D&D is a "shameful" game played by "comically awful... obsessives".
> 
> At a time when the hobby needs new blood, having disparaging descriptions of gamers in the media, whether they're true or not, doesn't help to keep the game alive.




Um, dude, that is not a serious commentary. This book is supposed to be FUNNY. 



> With a cast of comically awful fellow obsessives, this is a story that enters the daft, twilight world of male adolescent imagination, and with great wit, self-deprication - and not a little poignancy - rips the piss out of it. 'Sharp and funny' - "Loaded". 'Hilarious ...[Barrowcliffe] is an assured stylist with a lively wit' - "Independent". 'A Natural chronicler of the love lorn male' - "The Times".




Note the use of the words self-depriciation, sharp and funny, hilarious. I mean really, come on. You don't think you are being overly sensitive? You didn't see dog show people up in arms about the movie _Best in Show_ And the game WAS kind of shamefull when we were kids. It was not "cool", and you tried not to tell girls you were playing DnD all weekend. Did that movie floating around the internet with the 2 dudes that played DnD make you mad too? What was, with the DM and his buddy in the Bathuvian Brothel or something? Pure comedy gold.


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## DJCupboard (Dec 21, 2006)

While I am all for wry and witty reports of adolescent dorkiness mirroring my own, I also am quite fond of well-written reports of such kind.  If the Amazon synopsis, which reads like an official press release -so that is what I will presume it to be-, is any indication, either modern English-english has a much greater difference to American-english than I was previously led to believe from reading other modern English-english texts, or this author (or best-case scenario, his editor or press agent) doesn't have the best grasp on grammar, which I always find snaps me right out of the correct mind-frame for proper enjoyment.

That being said, on with the self-deprication and social-goup fun-poking!  This can be no more damning than our very own EnWorld worst gamers thread.  Though I bet this author never had his life threatened by brazilian special ops, no matter how often he was spit on by the football team or rejected by the cheerleaders.

~DJC~


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## Mystery Man (Dec 21, 2006)

Zander said:
			
		

> Apparently, D&D is a "shameful" game played by "comically awful... obsessives".
> 
> At a time when the hobby needs new blood, having disparaging descriptions of gamers in the media, whether they're true or not, doesn't help to keep the game alive.




Stop wandering the earth looking for things to be offended about.


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## mythusmage (Dec 21, 2006)

Young Boy: Mom! Billy said I was being a jerk.

Mother: Well then, stop being a jerk.

(That's the sort of stuff Mom pulled on us all the time. )


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## grimwell (Dec 21, 2006)

Am I the only person who didn't "hide his gaming hobby" while in school in the 80's? Actually, I know I'm not. There were more than two dozen of us who gamed and talked gaming at school, in public, and didn't get the crap kicked out of us. Then again, some of us were on the football team and could punch back... I'd also like to note that most of the gamers I knew in school had female relations with girls who knew we gamed (including a few who gamed with us). OMG!

The only person who could get offended by a book showcasing an authors nerdly obsession with D&D is someone who has some latent shame about the fact that they play D&D.

GET OVER IT! Last time I checked, WE WON -- the geeks inherited the earth! 

Lord of the Rings on fiilm as a blockbuster series? Check.
Comic book stories being played out dramatically on one of the big 3 networks? Check. (Heroes)
Comic book franchies being worth more on film than film franchises? Check (who made more? Spiderman or the latest Bond?)
Fantasy and SciFi novels being all over the NYT Bestsellers list? Check (Heck, Salvatore alone...)
World of Warcraft tripping into the mainstream? Check.

Hi, my name's Craig. I'm a geek. I'm a gamer. I have a beautiful wife, three children that are mine genetically, lots of awesome friends who game, and a job in the video gaming industry. I owe who I am to guys named "Gary, Dave, J.R.R., and Issac." They inspired me to imagine, explore new worlds, never give up my curiosity and sense of fun, and to dare to do more than push buttons in the local factory like everyone else where I grew up. I have no shame. I'm damn proud of it. When I bump into someone from high school at random and tell them what I'm up to, they are geeked. Even the hardcore jocks who didn't game have a PS2 and played GTA at the least.

In short, thanks for pointing me to a book I'm going to buy, read, laugh with, and love. You just made the author more money than you cost him I'd imagine. Sorry that I'm being a little edgy, but if this game is ever going to 'explode into the mainstream with a comeback' we are all going to need to get over any sense of shame about rolling dice and pretending that we can tumble through combat (let alone open space!)


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## Remus Lupin (Dec 21, 2006)

It's a pity the book isn't coming out in the U.S., at least right away. I'd buy it. Don't know if I'd pay to have it shipped from the UK though.


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## Ozmar (Dec 21, 2006)

Humorous books about gamers are great... when they're actually funny. Of course you can't judge a book by its cover (esp when no cover image is available), and humor is often in the ear of the beholder, but the blurb for the book makes it sound horribly unfunny. Chalk me up as "not interested". I'll watch Mazes & Monsters again, thank you very much.

For real gamer humor, I much prefer Knights of the Dinner Table and Order of the Stick.

Later!
Ozmar the Humor Afficionado


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## Zander (Dec 21, 2006)

Fishbone said:
			
		

> Jesus Christ, just Dungeons and Dragons related merchandise is a 30 million dollar a year money maker, it isn't going anywhere.



There's the very real possibility that D&D is moribund. It's not obvious because it's happening very slowly but it is happening. The average age of gamers is increasing and we're not going to live forever. If we don't find new players, the game will eventually fade. Negative publicity such as this book can only discourage new D&D gamers.

Contrary to numerous posts above, the author hasn't struck a nerve in me. I'm just tired of having the hobby I enjoy demeaned to its detriment. 

And I'm not called Jesus Christ.


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## Ranes (Dec 21, 2006)

To whom is this book most likely to appeal, if not gamers or perhaps ex-gamers? If so, then the joke really is on us. Three thoughts spring immediately to mind:

1. I grew up with D&D and its ilk in the seventies and eighties, hid it from no one and didn't have a problem with girls or socialising.

2. It looks like a cheap shot.

3. "The Elfish Gene" - that _is_ funny.

4. I lied about there being three thoughts; Coventry is a grim place. Playing D&D to escape from it when you're stuck in your teens sounds like great advice.


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## BadMojo (Dec 21, 2006)

Mystery Man said:
			
		

> Stop wandering the earth looking for things to be offended about.




I'll gladly offend anyone *for free*.  It will save you the time and effort it takes to actually look for things to offend you.

I can make disparaging remarks about anyone's parentage, recreational activities of your sisters, daughters or mothers, personal hygeine and, as part of a holiday special I'm running I'll throw in some remarks about besiality.

My holiday gift to my fellow gamers!


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## Kularian (Dec 21, 2006)

Zander said:
			
		

> If we don't find new players, the game will eventually fade.




Ooh!  Ooh!  I'm of the new crowd,     Well, I'm 20, but that's still relatively young.  I'm pushing my sister (16) to get interested in it.  In my neck of the woods, everything still seems A-OK.

I can understand your concern, but the problem isn't as bad as you think.  While I personally think that D&D is changing, it's not going away.  If you compare it the way it is now to back when I first started (AD&D), there is a huge variety of choices, and people can play pretty much any way they want to.  Most of the younger crowd, (unfortunately, IMO,) leans more toward the 'video game' side.  They use whatever resources are possible to make the 'best' character.  But I'm pretty certain that as they grow older, they'll come to realize the true intent of D&D, and it will be _them_ who are concerned about Dungeons and Dragons going down the toilet in the hands of the new generation.

The new generation is fine, and some book written by a gamer with possible bad publicity isn't going to discourage them in the least.  If a kid enjoys playing football, why would s/he stop?  No matter what sort of bad publicity is shown on the air, s/he still likes playing.  More likely, a gamer is going to pick up the book, not some random person who might be interested in gaming.  We can sympathize with the author, and probably find humor in it.  Wizards of the Coast aren't going anywhere.  D&D isn't as fragile as you think,   

</ramble>


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## Tamlyn (Dec 21, 2006)

BadMojo said:
			
		

> I'll gladly offend anyone *for free*.  It will save you the time and effort it takes to actually look for things to offend you.
> 
> I can make disparaging remarks about anyone's parentage, recreational activities of your sisters, daughters or mothers, personal hygeine and, as part of a holiday special I'm running I'll throw in some remarks about besiality.
> 
> My holiday gift to my fellow gamers!




I'd like to order some gift certificates please. Boy, you just saved me a bunch of time X-mas shopping!


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## Wik (Dec 21, 2006)

Ah, people can write books about anything.

For example, I just released my autobiographical memoirs about fighting in the Vietnam War.  In it, I talk about how my platoon (that is what they're called, right?  Platoons?) adopted a little Vietnamese Boy we named Ralph.  We did a big fundraiser to send Ralph off to an American College, and eventually, we raffled off a nurse.

Oh, wait.  That was an episode of M*A*S*H*

In any case, one book ain't gonna hurt anything.


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## BaldHero (Dec 21, 2006)

Wik said:
			
		

> Ah, people can write books about anything.
> 
> For example, I just released my autobiographical memoirs about fighting in the Vietnam War.  In it, I talk about how my platoon (that is what they're called, right?  Platoons?) adopted a little Vietnamese Boy we named Ralph.  We did a big fundraiser to send Ralph off to an American College, and eventually, we raffled off a nurse.
> 
> ...




Nope, that wasnt M*A*S*H*. Couldnt have been.
M*A*S*H* took place during the Korean war.
At least that's what Hawkeye told me.
L.


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## Wik (Dec 21, 2006)

Yeah, well.  Hawkeye was in 'Nam, man.  He carried around a +3 longbow.  Everyone thought he was nuts.  

...until we encountered The Predator...

...Read all about it in my book, "Vietnam for Dummies!", due out on bookshelves April 2007.


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## Banshee16 (Dec 21, 2006)

Hussar said:
			
		

> HOw is this an attack on gamers when it's written about how a gamer had problems growing up as a gamer?  Like none of us ever hid our hobby?  Like none of us ever felt kinda weirded out when people asked us what we did on a Saturday afternoon?  Looks an awful lot like the Forty Year Old Virgin to me.




That's a good point.  I'm probably not your stereotypical gamer myself, but I have many memories of  hiding the hobby.  One thing I've realilzed is that far more people than I ever though either play, or have played.  My oldest friend was the football quarterback on his high school team, and I never mentioned anything about the game to him.  Until one day, visiting him after being away for a few years, I noticed the rack of Drizzt novels on his bookshelf, and the booted up copy of BG II on his computer.  Other friends in University I hid the hobby from, only to learn afterwards that they themselves played, but had hid the hobby from me.  We were already friends, and to find out that they play also was cool.  In my office, a tonne of my coworkers either currently play, or have played before.  Most of us had no idea about each other's interest in the game, because people are so busy hiding it.

Admittedly, the passtime is kind of silly.  Pretending to be elves and dwarves and such, on the surface level, does seem weird.  But I look back on it, and it gave me an outlet for my creativity, taught about teamwork and preparation, and helped keep me out of drugs and stuff during my teenage years.  None of these are bad things.

Maybe the book will be funny...so long as it doesn't perpetrate stereotypes.

Banshee


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## Tequila Sunrise (Dec 22, 2006)

Ugh, this is disgusting.  Elfs? Dwarfs? Learn English syntax before you write a review!


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## mhacdebhandia (Dec 22, 2006)

Nifft said:
			
		

> Cricket has fans? Like, actual living ones?



Heh - are you high?

I'm no fan of cricket, but I do live in Australia, where we are presently hosting the English team for the traditional Test cricket series for the Ashes. You can't get away from cricket!

There are ten full members of the International Cricket Council - Australia, England, South Africa, India, New Zealand, the West Indies, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Zimbabwe, and Bangladesh - representing roughly 1.58 billion people, or about 24.3% of the world. That's about 5.25 times as many people as there are in the United States.

Cricket is the most popular sport in India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Sri Lanka, which total about 1.44 billion people. It's also the dominant sport here in Australia and in the British Caribbean, the West Indies. It's the second most popular sport in the world, after soccer.


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## mhacdebhandia (Dec 22, 2006)

Tequila Sunrise said:
			
		

> Ugh, this is disgusting.  Elfs? Dwarfs? Learn English syntax before you write a review!



Tolkien invented the "-ves" plural for "elves" and "dwarves".

I prefer it myself, despite disliking Tolkien, but "elfs" and "dwarfs" are not incorrect plurals.


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## Nifft (Dec 22, 2006)

mhacdebhandia said:
			
		

> Heh - are you high?




Is that necessary to enjoy cricket? 

Cheers, -- N

PS: Soccer rules -- particularly Arsenal.


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## Cthulhudrew (Dec 22, 2006)

Hussar said:
			
		

> HOw is this an attack on gamers when it's written about how a gamer had problems growing up as a gamer?  Like none of us ever hid our hobby?  Like none of us ever felt kinda weirded out when people asked us what we did on a Saturday afternoon?  Looks an awful lot like the Forty Year Old Virgin to me.




I don't know what you're talking about. I don't game.


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## Sound of Azure (Dec 22, 2006)

Nifft said:
			
		

> Cricket has fans? Like, actual living ones?
> 
> Anyway... like others have said, the write up makes it look more like a memoir than a thinly veiled attack, so it could be good fun... if anything, I expect the attacks on the UK education system to be the scathing part.
> 
> Cheers, -- N




Sure there are real, living ones. Our Prime Minister has made "liking cricket" a condition of citizenship in our country.  It is pretty popular around much orf the commonwealth, though. Personally I mainly like it when we can kick the butt of the old Motherland... like we just did.    

You are right, the book does look good. I guess I was exasperated by the hand-wringing and panic that seemed to be shown initially in the thread and didn't read the review thoroughly enough.  :\ I'll have to keep an eye on it.


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## pogre (Dec 22, 2006)

I have never understood why some gamers care if the game is popular or dies. I have the core rules, I have the ability to bring non-gamers into my gaming group. If WOTC ceases tomorrow we will keep playing. If the hobby dies with us, that's ok. I don't see a lot of people throwing Tali dice around these days either.*





*Unless they're playing FVLMINATA of course!


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## Vague Jayhawk (Dec 22, 2006)

As someone said earlier(edit: that someone is Ozmar), the book sounds about as funny as "Mazes and Monsters".

As for me,

I know more about how to kill dragons than I know about coventry.

I didn't know that dudes could be nuns!


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## Michael Silverbane (Dec 22, 2006)

I don't game, too!  And neither does my wife!

Later
silver


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## jeffh (Dec 22, 2006)

Tequila Sunrise said:
			
		

> Ugh, this is disgusting.  Elfs? Dwarfs? Learn English syntax before you write a review!



Right back atcha. Technically, these are right and the D&D versions are wrong, though I will probably always prefer the latter anyway.


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## Aaron L (Dec 22, 2006)

Actually, elves has always been the correct form.  I know that growing up before I played D&D that Santa had elves and not elfs.  


Heh, even the Firefox automatic spellchecker recognizes elves and not elfs.


Dwarves was revived by Tolkien, but not invented, I believe.

As it is now, Dwarfs refers to humans with dwarfism, and Dwarves refers to a race of fantasy creatures with big beards and axes.


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## Nyaricus (Dec 22, 2006)

Zander said:
			
		

> There's the very real possibility that D&D is moribund. It's not obvious because it's happening very slowly but it is happening. The average age of gamers is increasing and we're not going to live forever. If we don't find new players, the game will eventually fade.



I'm 18 (turning 19 soon), been a gamer for 7, nearly 8, years and have introduced easily 30 people to D&D. Trust me, this new generation has RPGs (or at least D&D) under control 

cheers,
--N


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## Nightfall (Dec 22, 2006)

Yet another book that bashes gamers...eh. I've had worse hits from wimps anyway.

Let him make fun of the community. We do take ourselves too seriously at times...but not sure if this is the way to go about that. 

Besides, not like we'll invite him to Winter Fantasy or another other Cons right?!


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## Zander (Dec 22, 2006)

Kularian said:
			
		

> Ooh!  Ooh!  I'm of the new crowd,     Well, I'm 20, but that's still relatively young.  I'm pushing my sister (16) to get interested in it.  In my neck of the woods, everything still seems A-OK.
> 
> I can understand your concern, but the problem isn't as bad as you think.  While I personally think that D&D is changing, it's not going away.  If you compare it the way it is now to back when I first started (AD&D)...



When I started gaming which was several years before you were born, there were many more young gamers. Nowadays, at cons, stores and clubs near me and at least one store nearer to you (and others I've been to worldwide), I see many more people in their 30s and 40s than in their teens and 20s. There may be young gamers but not enough to replace the old timers like me.

The only glimmer of hope is from gamers of my generation introducing their kids, nephews and nieces to the hobby. That could be D&D's salvation. WotC should do more to target parents as DMs and kids as players instead of assuming that both DM and players will be of the same age/level of exposure to D&D.

Books such as _The Elfish Gene_ won't help to bring teens into the fold but it won't impact kids who are too young to understand what 'uncoolness' or  'geekyness' are.


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## Hussar (Dec 22, 2006)

I gotta admit Zander, I'm not with you on this.  While I don't go to cons, I do play over OpenRPG.  Of the past 50 or so people I've gamed with, well over half were under 25.  In my current game, at 34, I'm the oldest, with the next one being 25 (I think) and everyone else younger.  I know that's just my experience, so take it for what it's worth, but, I think that looking at cons isn't a good gauge.  I know that in the few cons that I did go to, almost exclusively, players were all over 20.  

I've never been to the bigger con's admittedly, but, back in the day, how many teens, and particularly young teens, would you see at something like Gen Con?

I think that perhaps the perception of the aging gamer is fueled by the fact that back in the day, seeing a gamer over 35 was an exception.  Now, we just have a wider spread of ages.


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## DJCupboard (Dec 22, 2006)

At the gaming stores I frequent there are just about as many ten-or-so year olds as there are 30+ year olds, what seems to be missing is the 15 to 30 crowd, which I know through my time in college, is still alive and well.  In terms of not seeing young people at cons, how many eleven year olds can afford airfare to Milwaukee or California and not get grounded for missing that much school?


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## Wil (Dec 22, 2006)

prosfilaes said:
			
		

> It's funny to be the constant target of abuse labeled as humor?




Please show me where the bad comedian touched you.

This  is funny. I doubt anyone will take it seriously. If you don't believe that it can be funnt please see Dave Chappelle (sp?), Carlos Mencia, Richard Pryor and others.


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## grimwell (Dec 22, 2006)

On the topic of aging gamers and the need for replacements to fill out the ranks... I'd like to remind everyone that you don't die when you turn 40! I'm an original 80's gamer, started with the red box. I am 35 years old. Statistics says I've got another 35 or so years of natural life ahead of me barring accidents, bad habits, etc.

So we don't need to 'replace' any of our grey gamers -- we need to just continue to have fun and be open to new players from any source. There is definite room for growth, but I don't think it's quite the time to get alarmed about gamers dieing of old age. The Baby Boomers are in the rest home, D&D's generation are the children of Baby Boomers... we have another generation to go before the nursing home begins to house D&D sessions as often as bingo night.


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## gizmo33 (Dec 22, 2006)

Zander said:
			
		

> The average age of gamers is increasing and we're not going to live forever. If we don't find new players, the game will eventually fade.




One of the reasons I want to live to be 100 is to throw off these kinds of calculations.  That's the thing about averages.  I think it's to be expected that the group of us that started playing in the 80s is going to get older (hopefully).  Wait till we get to the retirement homes, then it's really going to look unpleasant.  I expect to see them start building retirement communities that look like Rivendell and advertising them in Dragon.


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## Crothian (Dec 22, 2006)

Zander said:
			
		

> Doesn't look flattering. A entire book dedicated to making fun of D&D gamers.  :\




Cool, maybe I can get more material; making fun of gamers is a hobby.


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## diaglo (Dec 22, 2006)

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> Oh, have a sense of humor already.



what simkin does, he does for his own amusement. -- one of the dark legacy books iirc


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## Prince of Happiness (Dec 22, 2006)

Man...new internet abbreviation for that book's blurb: TTDR (Too Tedious, Didn't Read).


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## Dragon Vindaloo (Dec 22, 2006)

:\ “Another attack on gamers” 

The title of this thread sounds like its trying to say gamers are a persecuted minority or something like that, lol!  The books light-hearted and means no harm, goodness gracious, get over it and don’t take things so serious, it's just a bit of a geeky hobby that we do for fun right?  At least it's not LARPing!


----------



## Hypersmurf (Dec 23, 2006)

Nifft said:
			
		

> Is that necessary to enjoy cricket?




[Raphael]_Cricket_!?  Nobody understands _cricket_!  You gotta know what a _crumpet_ is, to understand cricket![/Raphael]

-Hyp.


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## Aaron L (Dec 23, 2006)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> [Raphael]_Cricket_!?  Nobody understands _cricket_!  You gotta know what a _crumpet_ is, to understand cricket![/Raphael]
> 
> -Hyp.




That deserves an ENWorld no-prize.


----------



## TheAuldGrump (Dec 24, 2006)

Aaron L said:
			
		

> Actually, elves has always been the correct form.  I know that growing up before I played D&D that Santa had elves and not elfs.
> 
> 
> Heh, even the Firefox automatic spellchecker recognizes elves and not elfs.
> ...



Elfs, Elves, and even Elphs have all been accepted spellings of the word, going by many sources. (For elphs take a look at Percy's Relics and Childe's Ballads.)

Dwarves was a word created by Tolkien, since he was a student of languages he reasoned that the word would change if it were more commonly used, as would be likely in a world that contained a race of such. Thus, as calfs became calves, halfs became halves, and wolfs became wolves - dwarfs would become dwarves.

Sorry about the threadjacking, but....

The Auld Grump, how much the world has been changed by the invention of the dictionary, and how much more static spelling has become.


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## I'm A Banana (Dec 24, 2006)

> I fail to see how this is any different to books poking fun at men, women, blondes, stamp collectors, cricket fans or hairdressers.




Criminey, it's a MEMIOR! Not a JOKE BOOK! 

I could probably write a similar book about some of my D&D experiences. Of course, it would be more filled with beer runs, football stars, male bonding rituals, smashing stuff in the woods, and gaming with extremely beautiful college women and being very well-adjusted sexually, so it wouldn't be very interesting...

....now my book on Anime Conventions....THAT thing is going to be HILARIOUS!


----------



## Sound of Azure (Dec 24, 2006)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> Criminey, it's a MEMIOR! Not a JOKE BOOK!
> 
> 
> > I take most memoirs with the same tone as this one about as seriously as a joke book.
> ...


----------



## I'm A Banana (Dec 24, 2006)

I don't really think it's insulting. It's describing some guy's real experience with real social goons. I'm sure we ALL have had these experiences, to one degree or another. Here's a guy who's just making an honest buck out of it.


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## Sound of Azure (Dec 24, 2006)

Yes, I agree. I don't feel demeaned or insulted by anything like this book. I just worry when some of my fellow gamers are too thin-skinned and jump up and down over trivialities.

Then again, they're not me...and it doesn't affect me at all if they want to carry on. Maybe I should relax a little, myself.


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## BadMojo (Dec 24, 2006)

Sound of Azure said:
			
		

> Yes, I agree. I don't feel demeaned or insulted by anything like this book. I just worry when some of my fellow gamers are too thin-skinned and jump up and down over trivialities.




Don't worry about them.  Just laugh at them like I do.

Maybe it's a side effect of the number of socially crippled RPG players around, but as a group we sure seem easy to offend.  Just play the games, enjoy them and don't worry about what other people think.  No point losing sleep about this kind of stuff.


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## houndstooth (Jan 17, 2007)

*The Elfish Gene - A note from the author*

Hello
Mark Barrowcliffe here, I wrote The Elfish Gene.
The blurb on Amazon was not written by me, in fact it was written by someone who has since left my publishers. I'm getting it changed.
My intention in writing this book wasn't to attack gamers at all. I was a gamer and still hold a great deal of affection for that period of my life, something that comes over in the book. In fact, if anyone is attacked or made fun of in The Elfish Gene then it's me. I was an idiot, I was a gamer. That doesn't mean all gamers are idiots.
It's a personal memoir about an obsessional way of playing RPGs. It makes no mention of the majority of perfectly normal gamers, just freaks like me.
Anyway, I'm not going to go into what the book is about - we should be able to get sample chapters up on websites soon so you can judge for yourselves. But please, don't think it's an attack on D&D, or on gamers. My publishers wouldn't have paid me to produce something that cliched.
Much of the book stands up for RPGs. Of course, I do give the myths that D&D leads to the occult or that it involves casting spells a good kick in the head.
Anyway, if anyone has any idea where I could post a few sample chapters I'd be grateful. I think then you'll see that this is no different in intent to a lot of comic biographies on golf, chess, football, whatever. And mods, I don't think this breaks any rules on advertising as I'm replying to an established thread. If it does, er, sorry.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Jan 18, 2007)

houndstooth said:
			
		

> Hello
> Mark Barrowcliffe here, I wrote The Elfish Gene.
> The blurb on Amazon was not written by me, in fact it was written by someone who has since left my publishers. I'm getting it changed.
> My intention in writing this book wasn't to attack gamers at all. I was a gamer and still hold a great deal of affection for that period of my life, something that comes over in the book. In fact, if anyone is attacked or made fun of in The Elfish Gene then it's me. I was an idiot, I was a gamer. That doesn't mean all gamers are idiots.
> ...




Dude, don't sweat it -- we've got your back.

Welcome to EN World!  You should find it a friendly place ... I wouldn't judge by the original post.


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## nyrfherdr (Jan 18, 2007)

HEY HOUNDSTOOTH!  Welcome to the boards!!!!

You should pick up D&D again.  It's still fun.
Anyway, I hope the gang lets you link sample chapters somewhere here on the boards.

Game ON!


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## BlackMoria (Jan 18, 2007)

Self-Depreciation has always been a mainstay of humor or comedy.  Just go to see almost any comedy show.  A book about growing up a geek and a D&D geek at that is not a threat to gamers.

A bigger threat to the image of RPGers is, well - without putting fine a point on it, it's the certain elements of the hobby who show up at conventions and basically validate the ultra-geeky, bad hygiene, wouldn't know what to do with a woman, total nerd, just visiting the planet stereotype image that the hobby has picked up over the years.
The types who really aren't representative of the hobby as a whole, yet if there is reporter around -who does he end up interviewing?


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## TarionzCousin (Jan 18, 2007)

houndstooth said:
			
		

> Hello
> Mark Barrowcliffe here, I wrote The Elfish Gene.



I think you've made a dozen or so sales because of this thread. I hope so.


...and I want a copy of Wik's _Vietnam for Dummies_. Funniest reply I've read in weeks.


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## Agamon (Jan 18, 2007)

Yep, sounds like an interesting read, I'll have to pick it up.


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## airwalkrr (Jan 18, 2007)

And yet, no one seems to have a problem with:

-I want to cast magic missile!
-Why are you casting magic missile? There's nothing to attack here.
-I'm attacking the darkness!

Everyone I know thinks that short is hilarious, and it is far from flattering. Why is this any different?


----------



## Raloc (Jan 18, 2007)

Ozmar said:
			
		

> Humorous books about gamers are great... when they're actually funny. Of course you can't judge a book by its cover (esp when no cover image is available), and humor is often in the ear of the beholder, but the blurb for the book makes it sound horribly unfunny. Chalk me up as "not interested". I'll watch Mazes & Monsters again, thank you very much.
> 
> For real gamer humor, I much prefer Knights of the Dinner Table and Order of the Stick.
> 
> ...




I remember the first time I saw Mazes & Monsters (this was after I'd started playing D&D and DMing, and even then I wasn't to be swayed by anyone's BS).  Anyway, I recall that I saw it listed in the guide but didn't have any information about it.  So I go in thinking it's going to be a normal style movie, possibly with some RPGness about it.  The first bits confirm this, then came the ENDING and I'm sitting there   WTH?  I think after that I went reading about the movie and associated propaganda by nutter religious zealots.  Meh.  

Also: KoDT is great.




			
				pogre said:
			
		

> I have never understood why some gamers care if the game is popular or dies. I have the core rules, I have the ability to bring non-gamers into my gaming group. If WOTC ceases tomorrow we will keep playing. If the hobby dies with us, that's ok. I don't see a lot of people throwing Tali dice around these days either.*
> 
> *Unless they're playing FVLMINATA of course!




Even without any books you could recreate a semblance of rules that would work fine for D&D style roleplaying.  As far as the hobby dying out, I figure any of the 20-40+ aged RPers that haven't yet had kids should do, and basically force them to play   "If you want food, you'll roleplay, by gum!"


----------



## S'mon (Jan 18, 2007)

Ranes said:
			
		

> 4. I lied about there being three thoughts; Coventry is a grim place. Playing D&D to escape from it when you're stuck in your teens sounds like great advice.




I'll second that.  Coventry really sucks*; a bit of escapism is entirely understandable!

*At least I thought so, moving there from the bright lights & glamour of fabulous Sheffield...


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## Mark Chance (Jan 18, 2007)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> Let him make fun of the community. We do take ourselves too seriously at times...




Case in point:



			
				Zander said:
			
		

> ...There may be young gamers but not enough to replace the old timers like me.
> 
> The only glimmer of hope is from gamers of my generation introducing their kids, nephews and nieces to the hobby. That could be D&D's salvation. WotC should do more to target parents as DMs and kids as players instead of assuming that both DM and players will be of the same age/level of exposure to D&D.
> 
> Books such as _The Elfish Gene_ won't help to bring teens into the fold but it won't impact kids who are too young to understand what 'uncoolness' or  'geekyness' are.




 :\


----------



## Darklone (Jan 18, 2007)

houndstooth said:
			
		

> Hello
> Mark Barrowcliffe here, I wrote The Elfish Gene.
> ...
> Much of the book stands up for RPGs. Of course, I do give the myths that D&D leads to the occult or that it involves casting spells a good kick in the head.



Welcome to the boards and enjoy your stay... but be careful, you might get addicted. Again. 


> Anyway, if anyone has any idea where I could post a few sample chapters I'd be grateful. I think then you'll see that this is no different in intent to a lot of comic biographies on golf, chess, football, whatever. And mods, I don't think this breaks any rules on advertising as I'm replying to an established thread. If it does, er, sorry.



Just post them in the storyhour section with a good header that it's about your book. People will love to read it.

PS: I am no mod, so if it's not allowed here what would surprise me... send me a cookie.


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## Zander (Jan 18, 2007)

houndstooth said:
			
		

> Hello
> Mark Barrowcliffe here, I wrote The Elfish Gene.
> The blurb on Amazon was not written by me, in fact it was written by someone who has since left my publishers. I'm getting it changed.
> My intention in writing this book wasn't to attack gamers at all.



As the OPer, I'm glad to hear that you're changing the blurb and that your book isn't an attck on gamers. 


			
				houndstooth said:
			
		

> I was a gamer and still hold a great deal of affection for that period of my life, something that comes over in the book.



Once a gamer, always a gamer. You may have forgotten how much fun it can be. You should take it up again. If you're in London, check out the London D&D Meetup. We game every Saturday afternoon at a pub near Elephant & Castle. We would be delighted to have you along.

BTW you should get your publishers to get a stand at UK GenCon in Reading in late August/early September. I'm sure you'd shift shed-loads of your book! Maybe you can get yourself invited as a guest. If not, there's always Dragonmeet in London in early December. I know the guy who runs that convention and might be able to work something out for you. Let me know.

And I'm planning on buying a copy of your book as soon as it comes out in April.


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## Darklone (Jan 18, 2007)

Now you're going to ruin his detox, Zander


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## Nightfall (Jan 18, 2007)

Mark,

Good find!  

*isn't worried about finding new, younger gamers* It's the older ones I'm having trouble finding!


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## houndstooth (Jan 25, 2007)

*Elfish Gene*

If anyone's interested I've just posted a bmp of the book cover. along with a blurb on the media forum,


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## PaulofCthulhu (Dec 14, 2008)

We have a review of _The Elfish Gene_ and an interview with the author Mark Barrowcliffe in *Yog Radio #33*

Paul


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## Haffrung Helleyes (Dec 15, 2008)

*the hobby is still not popular*

And I have the perfect anecdote to prove it.

I am in Granada, Nicaragua right now, and I was sitting in a bar 2 nights ago talking to two pretty dutch women in their 20s.  I had been playing a computer game on my laptop when they came and sat next to me.

Somehow the conversation turned to geeks.  I don't know.  I remarked that I had been playing a computer game when they came up, so I was certainly a geek.  They said that there were a lot of geeks in Holland now.

'Well, at least you don't play Dungeons and Dragons' , one of them said out of the blue.  'Those guys who do that are really screwed.  They'll never get a girl'.

I decided not to correct them ;-)

Ken


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## haakon1 (Dec 15, 2008)

Remus Lupin said:


> It's a pity the book isn't coming out in the U.S., at least right away. I'd buy it. Don't know if I'd pay to have it shipped from the UK though.




It's here.  I just saw a review of it in the Seattle Times/Seattle Post-Intelligencer sunday issue this morning.


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## jinnetics (Dec 15, 2008)

Zander said:


> At a time when the hobby needs new blood, having disparaging descriptions of gamers in the media, whether they're true or not, doesn't help to keep the game alive.




So the viewpoint should be banned, is what you're saying?


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## haakon1 (Dec 15, 2008)

Haffrung Helleyes said:


> And I have the perfect anecdote to prove it.
> 
> I am in Granada, Nicaragua right now, and I was sitting in a bar 2 nights ago talking to two pretty dutch women in their 20s.  I had been playing a computer game on my laptop when they came and sat next to me.
> 
> ...




Fascinating.  I would have been tempted to discuss with them, were I still single.  A pretty girl or two, that's not too unusual.  A pretty girl with an opinion about D&D, that's unusual . . . probably a good story behind it.


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## CharlesRyan (Dec 15, 2008)

I've read _The Elfish Gene_; it's been out in the UK for a couple years.

It was given to me by a fellow gamer who was so pissed off about it's anti-gamer attitude that he couldn't get past the first couple chapters.

I can see why he felt that way: The book starts off seeming to say "I was an insufferable dork as a teenager, and D&D made me that way."

By the end, however, the message clearly becomes "I was an insufferable dork as a teenager, and an obsession with D&D was the principal expression of that."

Along the way, it is truly, often hysterically, funny. And sometimes quite poignant.

The author is no wannabe who flirted with D&D for a few months. He was an early OD&D adopter who also delved deeply into other early games like Empire of the Petal Throne and early Traveller. Most of us who were around the hobby in the 70s will recognize not just some blast-from-the-past titles, but also that this guy was way more into gaming than even we were.

I recommend it, but start reading with a thick skin. It's going to seem pretty anti-gaming/anti-dork in the early going. It gets better.

(Oh, and hi, and welcome to EN World, Mark. Can I be the first to suggest that you post a sample chapter or two here?)


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## S'mon (Dec 15, 2008)

I read it (on Craig Cochrane/Upper_Krust's recommendation) back in 2007, and liked it.  Some things such as the Nazi-obsessed fellow players reminded me of my own RPGing youth back in Belfast.  The author does arguably have a bit of an "I'm too cool for D&D" attitude in the book, though, but it's not an attack on gamers.


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## Baz King (Dec 15, 2008)

Took quite a few outraged posts before we got to anyone who'd actually read it... 

I have read it, and although I enjoyed it immensely, I did get the feeling that the author rather regrets his gaming past. That's a little sad.


----------



## dm4hire (Dec 15, 2008)

Crap, this means I have to stop reading Knights of the Dinner Table and Order of the Stick.  Oh, and PVP and...

Um, right.  The book is on my wish list because it does exactly what it says it does.  If you can't laugh at yourself, who can you laugh at?  Besides midgets and Cheerleaders trying to do Calculus.


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## Remus Lupin (Dec 15, 2008)

I read it here in the U.S. a couple of months ago and liked it quite a lot. I didn't have the experiences with nazi sympathizers and explosives that this guy seems to have had, but much of what he said rings true to my own adolescence.

At its heart, it's about a kid who didn't really fit in, and how D&D became an outlet for him. But then, as is so often the case with kids, monomania made it harder for him to fit in.

I laughed hysterically at points and couldn't even finish reading some of the passages to my wife (take that! Dutch girls at the bar in Nicaragua!) because I couldn't speak through my own laughter.


----------



## Daniel D. Fox (Dec 15, 2008)

If anyone is honestly offended that their hobby is being "attacked" and made to feel shame, it may be time to move out of the basement.


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## Wootz (Dec 15, 2008)

_not a link which helps discussion ~ PS_


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## Plane Sailing (Dec 17, 2008)

houndstooth said:


> And mods, I don't think this breaks any rules on advertising as I'm replying to an established thread. If it does, er, sorry.




As an admin, I can say we're quite happy that you're not breaking any ENworld rules on advertising here.



Cheers


----------



## Plane Sailing (Dec 17, 2008)

Just realised, this is a case of 'holy thread necromancy, batman!"


----------



## CharlesRyan (Dec 17, 2008)

Wow. You're right!


----------



## Gwaihir (Dec 17, 2008)

I have also read this and enjoyed it.  the author does have the viewpoint that he somehow "survived" his D&D past, but other than that I found it humorous, often histerically so, and also a window back into my highschool days. Scary and wonderful as they were.


----------



## Mallus (Dec 17, 2008)

It's nice when you can laugh at yourself... particularly if you enjoy pretending to be an elf in your spare time.


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## Sabathius42 (Dec 17, 2008)

Haffrung Helleyes said:


> 'Well, at least you don't play Dungeons and Dragons' , one of them said out of the blue.  'Those guys who do that are really screwed.  They'll never get a girl'.




The ultimate solution to that scenario would have been to "seal the deal" as it were (hopefully with the speaker, preferably with BOTH) and as soon as the deal is sealed to pull out your MM and ask them for help on this weeks adventure.

DS


----------



## Jonny Nexus (Dec 18, 2008)

Well if you'd asked me two days ago for my opinion of _The Elvish Gene_, I'd most likely have been non-commital. (And perhaps gone back to pondering the seven week-old mystery of why sales of my novel Game Night suddenly spiked sharply upwards on 1st November for no apparent reason).

But having found out that the Elvish Gene's Amazon.com page is recommending that potential purchasers of that book also buy Game Night...







...and presumably has been since... (oh, look that book came out on November 1st!) I am now firmly of the opinion that Mark Barrowcliffe (a.k.a. houndstooth) is quite simply one of the finest human beings who ever lived and I simply won't hear a word said against him*. I really would recommend that everyone here check out the Amazon.com page for his book.

*The author of this post reserves the right to change this stated opinion should the Elvish Gene's Amazon sales ranking at any point fall below 30,000.


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## haakon1 (Jan 2, 2009)

*Read It*

Read it over the last several days.  Liked it, but the end left me sad.  Like Billy (the main character in the book besides the author), I'm a bit disappointed in the end that Mark (the author) doesn't play anymore . . . it doesn't need to be all about arguing and and one-ups-manship, as he saw with Billy.

To me, some of it was familiar, some of it was an insight to the origins of D&D slightly before my time (Mark started playing in 1975 as a wargamer, I started in 1981 as a neighbor asked me to play with him and his brother), and some of it was an insight into England in the 1970s -- which was actually quite interesting stuff.

The only D&D thing I had to look up while reading it, to see if Mark got it right, was the Mirror of Life Trapping.  He did, though I think it's too big to carry around . . . but who knows, maybe a Portable Hole was used or something.  I thought a lot about how Mark handled the situation (as DM) where it was used . . . a hopeless situation socially, but as DM, I would have tried to somehow have the mirror smashed to get back the character sucked into it.  I've actually only seen a player kill another PC once, for a very good reason, and I agree with the action (and kicking out the other player).  Those decisions do seem to be based on who the DM likes better.

Anyhow, I'm thinking about "rescuing" the trapped character in my campaign, just because I can.  I've had characters from Gary's campaign ocassionally traipse through mine, so why not do the right thing for this poor, old, "famous" and stranded character?

As for how Mark ended up leaving the game, wow, I feel his pain on that one.  Ouch.  

Oh, the story about Llandudno, that's the only one I had trouble believing.  Bus stop "dryads"?  Really?  Life was never like that in small town rural New York.

For the rest of it, not very similar to most of my gaming experiences, but I can definitely see it happening, and it seems many people here have had similar experiences/attitudes.


----------



## Kzach (Jan 2, 2009)

Hussar said:


> Like none of us ever hid our hobby?



Nope, never. Also never understood why anyone would.


Hussar said:


> Like none of us ever felt kinda weirded out when people asked us what we did on a Saturday afternoon?



Nope, never.

I find people who go to church regularly weird. And they do that every Sunday!


Hussar said:


> Looks an awful lot like the Forty Year Old Virgin to me.



I'm not a virgin, are you?


----------



## Melba Toast (Jan 2, 2009)

I read this book last year and loved it, but I was already a fan of the author before he wrote The Elfish Gene. 

I find it hilarious that people are offended by the book though. It's really quite sweet. It was damned near the story of my youth.


----------



## S'mon (Jan 2, 2009)

haakon1 said:


> Oh, the story about Llandudno, that's the only one I had trouble believing.  Bus stop "dryads"?  Really?  Life was never like that in small town rural New York.




Teenage girls waiting at bus stops is something you can see anywhere in the UK, even today!    The guy does seem to be quite the ladies' man if you believe his accounts, but some people are just like that.


----------



## haakon1 (Jan 2, 2009)

Ah, perhaps the reason I never saw the bus stop dryad phenomenon is that there are no bus stops in the small town where I grew up.  The only buses are for the disabled and for school.  We're not big on public transport in small town America . . .


----------



## S'mon (Jan 2, 2009)

haakon1 said:


> Ah, perhaps the reason I never saw the bus stop dryad phenomenon is that there are no bus stops in the small town where I grew up.  The only buses are for the disabled and for school.  We're not big on public transport in small town America . . .




Yeah, it's a cultural thing.  Think mall rats instead.  

Edit: Or if you don't have a mall, well, on the strip outside the Dairy Queen?  At the bowling alley?  You have kids hanging around_ somewhere_, right?


----------



## RichGreen (Jan 2, 2009)

Hi,

I got an advance copy of the book just before it came out in the UK and loved it. It's funny in places but pretty sad too, and rang very true to me as someone who played D&D in 1980 when I was 13. Highly recommended!

Cheers


Richard


----------



## haakon1 (Jan 3, 2009)

S'mon said:


> Yeah, it's a cultural thing.  Think mall rats instead.
> 
> Edit: Or if you don't have a mall, well, on the strip outside the Dairy Queen?  At the bowling alley?  You have kids hanging around_ somewhere_, right?




My hometown had no mall, no bowling alley, and no Dairy Queen (in our little part of the world, it's more often Friendly's or Carvel anyhow).  Nowadays, there is a non-chain local place to buy ice cream and hamburgers, but the parking is in a shared lot in back, and nobody hangs out there.

I remember basically just hanging around at my neighbors houses, or hiking around in the woods, where you'd see more deer than people, guaranteed.  Activities were pretty much stuff you stayed after school for and took the late bus home -- soccer and singing for me.  If you took the early bus home, I'm not sure what you did.

Yes, there are places where there's even less to do than in Coventry.  And it seems that D&D tends to be fairly popular in such places.

In the 1990s, some old lady tried to get Magic The Gathering banned in the local school district after school, but the local school board fought her and the NY State courts decided the school was right.  Her logic?  Separation of church and state, because MtG was teaching the religion of Satanism, as were the lessons on studying owl poo to understand what they ate to understand the local ecosystem, and a book called "Spies on the Devil's Belt" in the school library (it was about a local spy ring during the American Revolution, using a historical name for the group).

In my day, nobody even though of asking if we could play at school anyhow.

The one good thing out of the Satanism case?  The media descended on our town, and asked my mom, who seemed likely to have a dummy opinion, what she thought of the accusations of teaching Satanism at school.  And I quote
"In my day, we thought that Satanism was best taught at home."  Needless to say, they didn't put that one on the nightly news.


----------



## Adso (Jan 3, 2009)

houndstooth said:


> Hello
> Mark Barrowcliffe here, I wrote The Elfish Gene.




Hi Mark, and thanks for posting. I received your book for Christmas, devoured it, and have now passed it on to some of my coworkers. Page after page of _The Elfish Gene_ reminded me of my own childhood here in the States. The emotion and the sense of wonder you describe when you discover the game--or rather some facsimile of the game—hit the nail right on the head. I remember after playing my first game of D&D, going home and creating my own versions of it just so I could share my excitement before I went out and bought the _Player’s Handbook_, _Monster Manual_, and _Dungeon Master’s Guide_ (I started a couple years after you). And it doesn’t stop there. I think you do an excellent job recapturing the wonder and awkwardness of growing up strange and with Dungeons & Dragons.

_The Elfish Gene _is not an attack on gamers. While Mark is brutally retrospective of his obsession with D&D and fantasy (and something I think he still "suffers" from today...I do too, but I am not as regretful as Mark seems to be at times), and sometimes that forced me to look back with the same brush on my own teenage years—something that was sometimes painful and awkward—I think that's one of the things that makes this a fantastic memoir. 

Thank you, Mark, for writing such an entertaining look at your youth and providing me with some mnemonic milestones to reexamine my own. If you're ever out in the Seattle area, stop by the Wizards of the Coast offices. I for one would like to shake your hand, buy you lunch, and even tempt you with a game or two. 

I'm sure I'm not the only one.


----------



## Aeolius (Jan 3, 2009)

Mallus said:


> It's nice when you can laugh at yourself... particularly if you enjoy pretending to be an elf in your spare time.





Oh, this is an elf-help book, then?


----------



## Aeolius (Feb 10, 2009)

I just saw a review of the book over at SCI FI WIRE


----------



## Flobby (Feb 10, 2009)

*Late as usual...*

Little late on the thread (as usual..) but had to put my two cents in. 
I think I read 2 or 3 posts from people that were open about D&D AND had a great social life, girls, etc... Can't say I can relate. I knew two guys who were totally open about the hobby in high school - one wore a hat that looked like something a hobbit should wear and a dice bag on his belt - pretty sure no girlfriend there!  

My roommate was the other guy. After college we designed a d20 game and when we'd go to parties he would try to pick up girls by saying - Hey! me and my friend here are writing an RPG! No one ever came home with us at the time.

I was a bit of a dork, still am I guess - didn't go out of the way to hide D&D but wasn't very vocal about it either. My friends were either gamers or the guys who smoked in the back of the school (they would make fun of me for playing! Like smoking by the dumpster is so much cooler! ) 
Not that everyone that I played with was a dork. Or was a closet-dork rather. One of my gamer friends was on the football team but he wouldn't play at school with us and I'm pretty sure he would have killed me if I told his football buddies (are you reading this Rich? 

Anyway I think more often than not is that most gamers were not one of the cool kids. And most of us tried to hide it.
Now that I'm older though and don't give a %$#! what people think, I'm pretty open about playing and looking back I think those two guys are the coolest, most hardcore people I know - total respect for them. They were proud of who the were. (And actually guy number 2 gets all kinds of action now.)

But I digress... the question was if the book would hurt the hobby? I'd say if anything it would help it. D&D is a GEEKY hobby, you're kidding yourself if you think its not. I think your more likely to get new players by just admitting it instead of trying to make it sound cool. So just be a geek and be proud of it - and there a lot of us from all walks of life with at least a little geek in us. 

...that and the book just sounds pretty funny. I think what REALLY turns people off from D&D is how way too SERIOUS some us take the hobby more than the geekyness (word?) of it.

done.


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## Jonny Nexus (Nov 21, 2009)

Not quite sure if it's a good idea to raise this particular thread from the dead, but if any of the UKers on ENWorld would like to have a chance to chat with Mark Barrowcliffe, the author of the Elfish Gene, he will be appearing at a panel/seminar at Dragonmeet this Saturday, alongside me.

(So if you do want to throw things I'd appreciate if you picked items of the non-splattering variety).   

In all seriousness, Mark's a really nice guy and I'm sure he'll be pretty entertaining and informative on the panel. I met up with him the other weekend (we both live in Brighton) and it was very cool hearing some of the background to the stories in the book.

Dragonmeet's at Kensington Town Hall (a few minutes walk from High Street Kensington tube) on Saturday 28th November.

http://www.dragonmeet.co.uk/


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## pawsplay (Jan 3, 2010)

Just read it. Quirky, but hilarious, and also sweet. Affectionate, loving, morally aware. I was really struck by how much of it resonated with me, the obsession with fantasy, the alienation as a young adult, the dread of boredom, the toleration of abuse within early gaming relationships, etc. At the same time, I was struck by how different my experience was. Gaming was, is, a source of self-steem, a special way of looking at the world, a font of creativity, a milieu for developing social skills, exercising the mind, and being productive. The thing that pains me about the book is the frequent use of the word "addiction," which I never felt gaming was for me. Briefly, in the late 90s, I thought I was about grown out of it; in retrospect, it was probably the darkest time in my life, and I lost interesting in gaming primarily because I lost interest in life. It is kind of sad that the author, in talking about his self-loathing and his reflexive use of sarcasm, cannot resist those impulses in his memoir. Particularly, I felt his description of the older gaming group at the end to be uncharitable; not everyone over twenty who games is an addict. My penchant for odd trivia and pop philosophy probably strikes some people as strange, but to me it is a gift to go through life with curiosity, knowledge, and openness to the nontraditional.

In reflection, there are probably a number of reasons why my view is more positive, probably not the least that I was a geek polymath, someone who's interest in D&D didn't simply concentrate in fantasy posters and heavy metal, but also in endlessly rewatching Star Wars, reading Civil Wars history, and studying physics. Maybe that makes a difference, dividing your sources of self-esteem so that no one avenue dominates you. Perhaps also it is generational, with myself living in America and starting almost four years later... changes in the masculine culture may have been kinder to my situation. He describes fleeing from LARPs in embarrassment, whereas I dove in with gusto. He speaks of the rarity of the female wargamer; I certainly met them in college, and studied extensively the question of what, exactly, would make someone attractive to such a person. I married a fellow nerd, and we are surely raising little nerdlings of our own. I feel like RPGs have brought virtually nothing but goodness into my life, and I consider the occasional weirdo, antisocial type, the momentary public embarassment, to be a small price to play. Anyway, I won't go in the vein at the risk of sounding self-indulgent.

Summary: Good book. Pleasant and warm. Also not a bad experience for gaining self-reflection. Highly recommended. If you are still in the stages of shedding your awkward self-loathing, take the contained wisdom with a grain of salt.


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## Vorput (Jan 3, 2010)

This thread keeps getting resurrected once a year, always around Christmas (Nov-Jan).

It's like magic...


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## Herschel (Jan 3, 2010)

prosfilaes said:


> It's funny to be the constant target of abuse labeled as humor?





You mean because I was a a three-sport jock (and one in to college)?

And a musician? (Brass and a rock drummer)

Grew up on a farm? Near a small town?

Work in finance with data?

Like wine, cheese, beer and sushi?

Aspire to be a gourmet cook?

Live in the suburbs?

People make fun of EVERYTHING. Deal with it. I'm just glad I'm tall so I don't have to deal with short jokes.


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## Remus Lupin (Jan 3, 2010)

<tall joke>How's the weather up there, stretch!</tall joke>


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## houndstooth (Jan 3, 2010)

*A message from author of Elfish Gene*

Wow, didn't know this thread was still going until Jonny Nexus pointed it out to me.
First, thanks to all the people who have said such positive things about The Elfish Gene. I'm really glad there are so many people who 'get' the book.
Second, sorry to anyone who's been offended by it. That wasn't my intention.
To offer a little background, I wrote the first and last chapters at the same time - the very last things I wrote for the book. They were written after I'd had something of a depressing experience at a gaming night and, in retrospect, were harsher on gamers than they needed to be. I wouldn't substantially change anything if I could rewrite the book but I would perhaps make it clearer in chapter one that what I am writing about in The Elfish Gene isn't really D&D at all but masculinity. It's a very particular coming of age story, as much about how a very young boy is rejected by, eventually accepted by and finally rejects  a group of slightly older boys as it is about slicing up goblins.
I should have moved forward that bit where I say that the only way D&D was to blame for the pressure cooker of sniping, back biting and personality assassination that characterised my youth was that it gave seven or eight boys an excuse to sit in a room together for their entire teenage years. There's nothing intrinsic about the game, beyond that, that had such a stunting effect on my social development. And, in the interests of scientific objectivity, it must be said we didn't have a control group to test against. 
It seems to me, though, that football, rugby, fishing, martial arts and other hobbies have a way of churning out socially stunted gits too. In fact, as I say in the book, the whole social system in the seventies and eighties seemed designed to turn men into fools. As you'd know if you'd read any of my other books, 'men are fools' is pretty much a theme of my work. Like most hobbies and games D&D had its own brand of git  but also had many redeeming features.
If you remove a tiny bit of chapter one and a slightly larger chunk of the final chapter you have a very fond memoir of D&D. Like I said, now I've attended a D&D con and started playing again my view is different to what it was when I'd just finished the book. It didn't help that, on the gaming evening I attended for research, one of the players was the spitting image of my old tormentor Chigger and seemed to have a few of his arrogant traits too. I thought 'oh my God, nothing's changed at all'. 
This was bad luck, really as it  seems to me now that many of the people playing the game today are slightly better adjusted than the general population. They're mostly too old to care about fashion, they cleave to something because they love it and for no other reason and, on the whole, they're pretty bright. I hope that, in the next edition of the book, I'll have the chance to say that. 
Anyway, I did finally get drawn back in to fantasy. You can take the boy out of Mordor but you can't take Mordor out of the boy. I've written a fantasy novel called Wolfsangel under the pen name MD Lachlan which is out May 2010, published by Gollancz. It's had very nice things said about it so far by Joe Abercrombie, who needs no introduction Joe Abercrombie - News
and Adam Roberts who, apart from being a kick-bottom author, is also SFF critic for The Guardian (UK national newspaper) . His comments on the book are here PUNKADIDDLE: M D Lachlan, Wolfsangel (2010)
The books about a werewolf and it's set in - I hope - a historically accurate Viking age.
I'm designing an RPG to come  out at the same time as the game but, I'm quite sure, it won't be ready by then as I'm currently writing the sequel to the novel.
My own new blog is at M D Lachlan ».


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## haakon1 (Jan 4, 2010)

pawsplay said:


> Summary: Good book. Pleasant and warm. Also not a bad experience for gaining self-reflection. Highly recommended. If you are still in the stages of shedding your awkward self-loathing, take the contained wisdom with a grain of salt.




Nod.  I agree with your comments.  I read over the Christmas 2008 break, and had pretty much the same views of it.

I did feel sorry for the author's "nice" gamer friend.  I thought about how that guy's character got caught in a Mirror of Life Trapping, and I thought it would neat to free him in an adventure, especially if the players had read the book . . .


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## S'mon (Jan 4, 2010)

houndstooth said:


> It seems to me, though, that football, rugby, fishing, martial arts and other hobbies have a way of churning out socially stunted gits too. In fact, as I say in the book, the whole social system in the seventies and eighties seemed designed to turn men into fools. As you'd know if you'd read any of my other books, 'men are fools' is pretty much a theme of my work. Like most hobbies and games D&D had its own brand of git  but also had many redeeming features. M D Lachlan ».




I'm not sure if hobbyism really does/did any harm.  Better that boys and men are interacting over their shared interests than be socially isolated with only the TV and computer for company.    When I was at University I didn't play RPGs - I did have a few friends, we mostly hung out and drank alcohol.  In retrospect that was a grimmer time than when I was playing D&D daily in school.  Not having D&D didn't make me better socially adjusted, just more bored.  Now I have a wife, child, *and* regular D&D group*.  

*With female players, too!


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## Nifft (Jan 4, 2010)

S'mon said:


> I'm not sure if hobbyism really does/did any harm.



 I agree with you. Socially damaged people tend to accumulate in hobbies, though -- every non-lethal hobby -- because *you can't get fired from a hobby*. It's that simple, I'm afraid.

Cheers, -- N


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## S'mon (Jan 4, 2010)

Nifft said:


> I agree with you. Socially damaged people tend to accumulate in hobbies, though -- every non-lethal hobby -- because *you can't get fired from a hobby*. It's that simple, I'm afraid.
> 
> Cheers, -- N




Maybe, but I've fired a lot of socially damaged players from my D&D group, unfortunately.  Happy to say it's nearly a year since I last had to do that, though.


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## Herschel (Jan 4, 2010)

Remus Lupin said:


> <tall joke>How's the weather up there, stretch!</tall joke>





Why you little %$$#^$*#$%*#&# !!!!!!


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## Thornir Alekeg (Jan 4, 2010)

houndstooth said:


> This was bad luck, really as it  seems to me now that many of the people playing the game today are slightly better adjusted than the general population.



Obviously your book is a memoir and is based upon your personal experiences, but I would contend that there were many people playing the game back then who were equally well adjusted.  Of course our large, very social group (up to 2 dozen people with multiple games ongoing) may have self-selected for better adjusted people.  There were a couple of players who had social issues, but they didn't tend to show up as often, probably because we had less tolerance for anti-social behavior, especially since we played in the back room of a hobby store for free as long as we didn't cause too much disruption.


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## Gort (Jan 4, 2010)

Generally speaking, D&D players are the worst people that exist.

Just saying.


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## Remus Lupin (Jan 4, 2010)

I always suspected as much.


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## pawsplay (Jan 4, 2010)

In the book, several sentences where spent dwelling on Frank, the "normal" science-fiction fan, and why he should have been doing else besides gaming. Then there's Billy, who came across as insecure and flamboyant, but a really nice gent. Some adult theater guy also GM'd some games. If you squint, you can see a different reality than what the narrator presents as the world of that young boy. Certainly, people can cling to bad gaming like it was a bad relationship. Doesn't make gaming bad.


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## Beginning of the End (Jan 13, 2010)

pawsplay said:


> In the book, several sentences where spent dwelling on Frank, the "normal" science-fiction fan, and why he should have been doing else besides gaming. Then there's Billy, who came across as insecure and flamboyant, but a really nice gent. Some adult theater guy also GM'd some games. If you squint, you can see a different reality than what the narrator presents as the world of that young boy. Certainly, people can cling to bad gaming like it was a bad relationship. Doesn't make gaming bad.




_The Elfish Gene_ is the story of a sad, pathetic, socially maladjusted boy who suffered from borderline delusions in an effort to escape his sad, pathetic existence. He fell in with a group of s and chose to continue hanging out with that group of s even when it meant pissing over the people who were actually his friends and becoming an  himself. In the process, he grew up to be a sad, pathetic, socially maladjusted adult.

Between those two points on his lifeline he played D&D, which -- according to him -- retroactively caused him to be a sad, pathetic, and socially maladjusted person.

Furthermore, he'd like you to believe that he got over being an . But even in the controlled narrative of his own book he can't hide the fact that he spends a great deal of time considering himself "superior" to wide swaths of people. Consider his "fatties are failures" thesis, for example. Or the fact that he pinpoints as the moment that he became a responsible adult as the moment in which he left an injured child laying in the middle of the park so that he could try to hook up with a cute girl. And not just any injured child: But a child that he had actually injured himself.

Which isn't to say that a lot of what the book has to say is truth. Even a resonant truth: There are a lot of socially maladjusted pricks in this world. And there are a lot of socially maladjusted pricks who play D&D.

The problem I have is when Barrowcliffe claims his experience to be universal and uses it as a poorly wielded bludgeon to derogate gamers in general. (Which is, of course, nothing more than Barrowcliffe's continued proclivity to be an  rearing its ugly head.)

In short, there's another story of D&D to be told: In my life, D&D was the social venue in which I learned how to interact with fellow human beings in a mature fashion. D&D encouraged my development in both verbal and mathematical skills. And there are a lot of other people just like me.

Barrowcliffe thinks that everyone else is an  because he's an . That's a typical thing for an  to do.


*Moderator's note:
Ladies and gentlemen, we do have a language filter.  That is not an excuse to litter your post with language that will be caught by the filter.  EN World is supposed to be family-friendly and civil, and we expect you to write that way in the first place. *


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## houndstooth (Jan 13, 2010)

From the author
Thanks for your comments, Beginning of the End.
Not sure I agree with all you have to say - I did say the 'fatties are failures' was a prejudice, not a thesis. We all have them and I think it's honest to confess them.  I also didn't say I became a responsible adult. I said I put fantasy behind me (turned out to be wrong on that score too).
I don't think everyone else is a whatever the word is you're covering up. Just some people. You'll notice that the portrait of Billy is very fond, as it is of many of the gamers I played with. Sure, Andy Porter is criticised but I just reported his behaviour. He got back in contact to say how much he liked the book.  There's nowhere in the book where I even say I don't like him.
The only character I come close to calling a seven letter smilie is Chigger. And he, in my opinion, was a seven letter smilie as virtually everyone I knew agreed. You're absolutely entitled to your opinion but I have to say, I find it baffling. I thought Elfish Gene was quite a gentle recollection of gaming - as most reviewers noted.  If you want to read some real bile from me try my first novel Girlfriend 44 'So funny, so nasty and so over the top' - New York Times.
Anyway, thanks for reading the book. I take it you won't want putting on my Christmas card list! Come up and punch me if you see me at a convention. I probably deserve it.


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## Upper_Krust (Jan 13, 2010)

Hey all! 

Actually I think the Elfish Gene is the best book I have ever read*, with some genuinely funny laugh out loud moments as well as some parts where I was unashamedly moved to tears.

*Okay, best novel, 1E AD&D Deities & Demigods is the best book I've ever read. 

As someone in the UK (Belfast) who started gaming only a few years after the book is set I could really empathise with a lot of what was going on, although the events in that book seem extreme compared to anything I ever witnessed.

Ironically I was given the book as a birthday present (about 18 months ago) by Zander, who posted earlier in this thread. He doesn't seem to share my opinions on the novel.

@houndstooth...thanks. 

By the way, since you're here, I think I have met your friend 'Billy'. I won't name any names but if his first name begins with the letter 'S' I may have gamed with him in London.


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## Remus Lupin (Jan 13, 2010)

I think Houndstooth deserves a lot of credit for being willing to take some of the brickbats being thrown his way with aplomb. I liked the book an awful lot (it has only been supplanted recently by "Fantasy Freeks and Gamer Geeks" in my vast "fantasy memoir" collection), but I see why many people would not.

I'm glad the author is willing to come here to take the criticism and respond respectfully. I know from experience how hard it can be to take criticism of something you've spent years writing.


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## S'mon (Jan 13, 2010)

Upper_Krust said:


> Hey all!
> 
> Actually I think the Elfish Gene is the best book I have ever read*, with some genuinely funny laugh out loud moments as well as some parts where I was unashamedly moved to tears.




Hi U_K/Craig - I think '80s Coventry was quite a lot like '80s Belfast (minus the bombs - the IRA in Cov used to go over to Birmingham for their bombing); and the Nazi-obsessed gamer in Elfish Gene reminded me a lot of one or two of our old pals.     Overall I think the book is a pretty good portrait of a section of British working-class youth in that era.


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## Janx (Jan 13, 2010)

S'mon said:


> Hi U_K/Craig - I think '80s Coventry was quite a lot like '80s Belfast (minus the bombs - the IRA in Cov used to go over to Birmingham for their bombing); and the Nazi-obsessed gamer in Elfish Gene reminded me a lot of one or two of our old pals.     Overall I think the book is a pretty good portrait of a section of British working-class youth in that era.




That's a good point to bring up.  Americans have mostly had a pretty consistently safe childhood.  All the bad stuff happened elsewhere (or the gang-infested slums).

There's other places in the world where dangerous stuff was going on right outside the door of otherwise normal people.  That's gotta shape people.


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## S'mon (Jan 13, 2010)

Janx said:


> That's a good point to bring up.  Americans have mostly had a pretty consistently safe childhood.  All the bad stuff happened elsewhere (or the gang-infested slums).
> 
> There's other places in the world where dangerous stuff was going on right outside the door of otherwise normal people.  That's gotta shape people.




I was going to say "Hey, Coventry's not that bad!"

Then I remembered back to my 2.5 years in Coventry (1998-2000)... *shudder*  ...Like the time I looked out my window and saw a gang feral kids lighting grass fires and _holding a small child_ over one of them - we called the police, who refused to come, and the Fire Brigade, who did come and were roundly abused by the ferals.


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## Beginning of the End (Jan 13, 2010)

houndstooth said:


> You're absolutely entitled to your opinion but I have to say, I find it baffling.




Your thesis statements, taken from the first and last chapters of your book:

"Writing books is a waste of your life."
"I've tried to overcome the influence that my years writing books had on me."
"It's one thing to have the talent to be a dope; it's another to put it into practice. That's exactly what I was doing when I was writing books."
"If you're still writing books into your twenties and beyond then you're an addict."
"I was starting to write books again. 'Actually,' I said. 'I'm feeling rather ill. I think I'm going to have to go.' I got into the cool air of the street and made my way to my car. It was as if I was slightly disembodied as I moved. I could hear a noise I couldn't place. Then I looked down and realized it was coming from my feet; I was running. Something in my subconscious was rushing me back to my wife, the dog, the TV, away from the lands of fantasy and towards reality, the place I can now call home."

... Whoops. I seem to have "accidentally" replaced the words "playing D&D" with the words "writing a book".

Your entire book is written around the thesis that "D&D makes you a bad person and you should run away from it as fast as you can".

To be clear: I find your anecdotes charming, resonant, and well-written. I find your own struggle to differentiate between delusion and reality to be quite harrowing (and great material for a memoir), and I can completely sympathize that -- for you -- D&D is a dangerous addiction that feeds into your inherent predilection for delusion.

But you're an alcoholic who wrote a book concluding that everyone who drinks is an alcoholic. And then you're baffled that wine connoisseurs aren't amused with the broad brush you're painting them with.


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## Janx (Jan 13, 2010)

S'mon said:


> I was going to say "Hey, Coventry's not that bad!"
> 
> Then I remembered back to my 2.5 years in Coventry (1998-2000)... *shudder*  ...Like the time I looked out my window and saw a gang feral kids lighting grass fires and _holding a small child_ over one of them - we called the police, who refused to come, and the Fire Brigade, who did come and were roundly abused by the ferals.




and not to say that all of America is nice and safe.

There's this recent documentary of a mayor in pennsylvania or somewhere talking to school kids and explaining to them that it isn't normal to know somebody who was shot, to have experienced crime, etc.  There are some places that aren't safe for children to grow up.

But for most of us, we're not aware of those places.

Anyway, my point was, other places in the world have had a lot going on, and many of us americans haven't experienced that.


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## EnochSeven (Jan 13, 2010)

Maybe I'll pick this back up and give it another try.

The first chapter left a very bad taste in my mouth.  My impression was / is that you regret that you ever heard of DnD.  That you missed out on a normal childhood.  That somehow you were robbed of so many great things at that critical age because you were duped into playing a dumb game, a vapid waste of time.  






houndstooth said:


> Wow, didn't know this thread was still going until Jonny Nexus pointed it out to me.
> First, thanks to all the people who have said such positive things about The Elfish Gene. I'm really glad there are so many people who 'get' the book.
> Second, sorry to anyone who's been offended by it. That wasn't my intention.
> To offer a little background, I wrote the first and last chapters at the same time - the very last things I wrote for the book. They were written after I'd had something of a depressing experience at a gaming night and, in retrospect, were harsher on gamers than they needed to be. I wouldn't substantially change anything if I could rewrite the book but I would perhaps make it clearer in chapter one that what I am writing about in The Elfish Gene isn't really D&D at all but masculinity. It's a very particular coming of age story, as much about how a very young boy is rejected by, eventually accepted by and finally rejects  a group of slightly older boys as it is about slicing up goblins.
> ...


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## S'mon (Jan 13, 2010)

Janx said:


> and not to say that all of America is nice and safe.
> 
> There's this recent documentary of a mayor in pennsylvania or somewhere talking to school kids and explaining to them that it isn't normal to know somebody who was shot, to have experienced crime, etc.  There are some places that aren't safe for children to grow up.
> 
> ...




My boy is far more likely to get shot in London, where I live now, than he would have been were we living in Coventry.  Gang violence per se is much worse in London (and not separated out into the 'bad' neighbourhoods like you have in the US).  But there's a kind of bleakness about Cov you don't see here so much.


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