# Eldritch Theurge



## Falling Icicle (Dec 25, 2006)

Has anyone tried out the Eldritch Theurge prestige class from Complete Mage? I'm thinking of giving it a try, but I'd like some feedback from someone who has experienced the class to help me decide if it's for me. I have played a Warlock, and I liked it save for the fact that I didn't have much versatility and that my abilities were very repetative. A Wizard/Warlock/Eldritch Theurge could be the answer. 

But I have a few concerns. Most significantly, I'd be 3 levels behind in both classes. My caster level for both would be lower (spell resistance could be a real concern), I'd have less spells per day and less powerful spells, and my Eldritch Blasts would be significantly weaker. Is the tradeoff worth it? Is an Eldritch Theurge able to pack a punch in a fight?


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## Sithobi1 (Dec 25, 2006)

It's much like a Mystic Theurge, except even worse, if possible. You need Cha, Dex, and Int. Practiced Spellcaster will help with SR, but the way Eldritch Blast is written, PS won't increase your blast damage.


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## Sejs (Dec 25, 2006)

One of the other nice things about the ET is that it lets you be a specialist wizard with far fewer drawbacks.  Just use your invocations to cover your weak points and go from there.


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## Falling Icicle (Dec 25, 2006)

Sithobi1 said:
			
		

> It's much like a Mystic Theurge, except even worse, if possible. You need Cha, Dex, and Int.




That's true, though unless you pick Invocations that allow saves, a Warlock doesn't need that high of a Cha.


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## saucercrab (Dec 25, 2006)

Falling Icicle said:
			
		

> That's true, though unless you pick Invocations that allow saves, a Warlock doesn't need that high of a Cha.



Additionally, can a sorcerer/warlock enter eldritch theurge? Or is it limited to wizard/warlocks?


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## satori01 (Dec 25, 2006)

I'm working on Stating one up as a BBEG, and I think it is a potentially brilliant PrC.  As a Wizard, 10 levels of the PrC and additional spell casting levels post PrC will net you 9th level spells.

The ability to hit someone with  an Eldritch Blast and then have that square count as the ground zero point for an area effect is useful.  Also being able to layer Eldritch Blast Invocations onto spell effects can be quite nice.  

Moreover,  having access to Warlock Invocations, means you can specialize as a Wizard and not fear losing some primo spells like Dimension Door or Invisibility.  Flee the Scene, Devils Sight, Fell Flight, Voracious Dispelling, all of these are great effects, that any caster would like to have access to.


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## Shellman (Dec 25, 2006)

saucercrab said:
			
		

> Additionally, can a sorcerer/warlock enter eldritch theurge? Or is it limited to wizard/warlocks?




Yes they can. Since Cha is a primary ability for both Sorcerer and warlock, you don't have to worry too much about the need to max out multiple ability scores 
(like Wizard/ Warlock for example). 

I am making one up for an upcomming campaign in January. Check out some of the alternate class features available for sorcerer's out of  UA, Comp Mage, Comp Arcane and some of the other WoTC books. They give some real interesting alternatives to a straight up sorcerer. There are some nice new invocations for warlocks out now too.


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## Votan (Dec 26, 2006)

Sithobi1 said:
			
		

> It's much like a Mystic Theurge, except even worse, if possible. You need Cha, Dex, and Int. Practiced Spellcaster will help with SR, but the way Eldritch Blast is written, PS won't increase your blast damage.




The worst part about this combination is that, at the levels that it finally gets decent, Warlock stuff is looking rather weak compared to wizard and sorcerer.  In the same book you have a Reserve Feat called Acidic Splatter.  That should almost keep pace with the Eldritch Blast in terms of damage, is superior in range without a shape evocation and also ignores SR just like the best Warlock blast enhancements.  

Why not just take the reserve feat?  Once you are considering practiced caster feats to improve your caster level, it makes sense to just be direct.


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## Falling Icicle (Dec 26, 2006)

That's a good point about the reserve feats. A Wizard can have an unlimited supply of blasts through those feats that are equivalent in power to the Eldritch Blast of a same level Warlock. These feats seem to really take away the entire point of playing a Warlock.


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## Votan (Dec 26, 2006)

Falling Icicle said:
			
		

> That's a good point about the reserve feats. A Wizard can have an unlimited supply of blasts through those feats that are equivalent in power to the Eldritch Blast of a same level Warlock. These feats seem to really take away the entire point of playing a Warlock.




Yep and they are in the same book.  A wizard with Acidic Splatter actually pulls ahead on damage from a Warlock at Level 13 assuming he uses a spell of his highest level for the reserve.  By then his range is 65 feet.  

A Warlock actually does a bit better at levels 1 to 4 than the wizard because of the range of the wizard's attack being so short.  

But the invocations are the only reason to play a warlock compared to reserve feats (unless you see the hit points as a big issue).  

The real reason to do Eldritch Theurge is abusing the ability to mix spells and blasts but it's an awful pricy way to go and I am rather convinced that the early multi-classing just can't be worth this.


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## satori01 (Dec 26, 2006)

Falling Icicle said:
			
		

> That's a good point about the reserve feats. A Wizard can have an unlimited supply of blasts through those feats that are equivalent in power to the Eldritch Blast of a same level Warlock. These feats seem to really take away the entire point of playing a Warlock.




Except, as I think was shown in the recent "How do Warlocks play" thread, those that commonly thought that Warlocks were a fun and strong class, were those that observed Warlock play that depended upon the Eldritch Blast as the option of last resort not first.

A single class Warlock, with a Warlock's Scepter,  the amulet that adds bonus dice to the Eldritch Blast, and the feats Maximize Spell Like Ability and Quicken Spell Like Ability, and Improved Critical Eldritch Blast will still never match the damage output of a Melee fighting character, or a Spell blasting character due to the limitation of one Eldritch blast per round.  A Warlock will have good rolls, and a memorable crit or two, but dealing massive amounts of damage is not their bag.

Dimension Dooring around like Nightcrawler, using any magic item that cross their path, hurting people with their at will Dispel Magic, those are the things that make a Warlock interesting.

An Evoker/Warlock Eldritch Theurge could be a terror in a fight.  Likewise on the player side, the DR will help you survive, and Warlock Invocations let you game the system a bit more, and make it easier to suck up the hit from being a Specialist Wizard.


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## Votan (Dec 26, 2006)

satori01 said:
			
		

> Except, as I think was shown in the recent "How do Warlocks play" thread, those that commonly thought that Warlocks were a fun and strong class, were those that observed Warlock play that depended upon the Eldritch Blast as the option of last resort not first.
> 
> A single class Warlock, with a Warlock's Scepter,  the amulet that adds bonus dice to the Eldritch Blast, and the feats Maximize Spell Like Ability and Quicken Spell Like Ability, and Improved Critical Eldritch Blast will still never match the damage output of a Melee fighting character, or a Spell blasting character due to the limitation of one Eldritch blast per round.  A Warlock will have good rolls, and a memorable crit or two, but dealing massive amounts of damage is not their bag.
> 
> ...




True but slowing access to invocations is rarely a good idea.  Multi-classing in a way that delays access to deceive item makes the ability to use items less able.  Or, if you take 4 levels of Warlock to get this, you still lag in UMD or you have to spend unfavorable skill point exchanges to build up this ability.  

You use the dimension door example.  Without this combination of classes, a warlock can do this at level 6 (if he takes it as his first lesser invocation).  However, a warlock 3/Evoker 3/Eldritch Theruge 3 gets the same ability at level 9.  That is a significant delay.  In return you cast 3rd level arcane spells and have slightly more DR.  That is a tough trade that polays against your strengths.  

It is possible that some "trick" could avoid the investment of 3 wizard or warlock levels but, in general, this can't be assumed.  

Since the Eldritch theurge's special abilities are weaker than a generic warlock except for the ability to enhance blasts with spells, this suggests that going with blasts is the point of this class.  

This has the same issues that all hybrids have -- you lag at least 3 levels in pinnacle abilities.  This means you wait longer for the very useful Dark invocations (19th level instead of 16th).


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## Quartz (Dec 26, 2006)

Does't this depend on what the other characters - especially the other spellcasters - in the party are doing? If the other spellcasters are going to be similarly delayed then there isn't going to be a problem.


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## Votan (Dec 26, 2006)

Quartz said:
			
		

> Does't this depend on what the other characters - especially the other spellcasters - in the party are doing? If the other spellcasters are going to be similarly delayed then there isn't going to be a problem.




Well, yes, to some extent.  But the challenges don't change and the effort to overcome them can be much higher the whle party is delayed spellcasters.  

Don't get me wrong, I am in favor of delaying progression for good reasons.  I just find that hybriding Warlock and Arcane to be less obvious a direction than most as it seems to work against the synergies that could be found.  

If it could be done for only one level of Arcane caster then it would have a worthy place but three levels is fairly painful.


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## Falling Icicle (Dec 27, 2006)

Really I think it comes down to looking at what I would gain vs. what I would lose. AT CL 10 (3 Lock/ 3 Wiz / 4 ET) I would lose (compared to a pure Warlock):

3 caster levels
2 Lesser Invocations
1d6 Eldritch Blast damage
Deceive Item
Energy Resistance 5 against two elements

But I would gain:

7 effective levels of Wizard
Summon familiar
Scribe Scroll
+1 DR/Cold Iron
Spellblast

That's not a bad trade at all, IMO. The only painful part is the lower levels where I would suck at everything for a while (only 2d6 EB damage until level 8 and no Fell Flight until level 9, ouch).

I could help make up for my weak blasts with a Chausible of Fell Power, and Greater Spell Penetration and possibly Practiced Spellcaster could help make up for the loss of caster levels. But that's hard for a Warlock who is already feat-starved. The worst part is at level 16, when ET is maxed out at level 10. In the next 4 levels I would be forced to go back to Wizard or Warlock or pick up another prestige class, and that would make my CL in one or both classes fall even farther behind.


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## Andras (Dec 27, 2006)

I haven't played one yet, but I think I will for my next to next character.

I'd take Invocations that supplement my spell casting, like Fell flight, See the Unseen, Serpents Tongue, Flee the Scene!, Void Sense; Hideous Blow looks like it would combine nicely with Grtr Mighty Wallop, and Eldritch Spear extends the range of Spell Weave and Great Blast.

None of those Powers require a save, so I can dump Cha.


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## Seeten (Dec 27, 2006)

I thought it looked good, but, not in a "powerful" way, more in an hey, that is kinda neat way.


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## Falling Icicle (Dec 27, 2006)

Any suggestions on what feats an Eldritch Theurge should take?


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## Quartz (Dec 27, 2006)

Votan said:
			
		

> Well, yes, to some extent.  But the challenges don't change and the effort to overcome them can be much higher the whle party is delayed spellcasters.



Then you have a GM problem. Having delayed spellcasters is only an issue if the adventure mandates a spell that your characters cannot cast, in which case your GM should find some way to work around that issue like giving you a scroll or magic item. Or run you through a lower-level adventure wih increased numbers of opponents.


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## rgard (Dec 27, 2006)

Sithobi1 said:
			
		

> It's much like a Mystic Theurge, except even worse, if possible. You need Cha, Dex, and Int. Practiced Spellcaster will help with SR, but the way Eldritch Blast is written, PS won't increase your blast damage.




The first sentence of the Practiced Spellcaster feat does say 'spells', but we always let it apply to EB blast damage.  Rationale was that the EB's save can be boosted by Spell Penetration.

Thanks,
Rich


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## RigaMortus2 (Dec 27, 2006)

Votan said:
			
		

> The worst part about this combination is that, at the levels that it finally gets decent, Warlock stuff is looking rather weak compared to wizard and sorcerer.  In the same book you have a Reserve Feat called Acidic Splatter.  That should almost keep pace with the Eldritch Blast in terms of damage, is superior in range without a shape evocation and also ignores SR just like the best Warlock blast enhancements.
> 
> Why not just take the reserve feat?  Once you are considering practiced caster feats to improve your caster level, it makes sense to just be direct.




A level 1 Wizard/Sorc can take Precocious Apprentice feat (Complete Arcane p. 182) and take Melf's Acid Arrow as their 2nd level spell.  Then they can do Acidic Splatter all day long and deal 2d6 acid damage all day long.  Not bad for a level 1 Character


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## Darklone (Dec 27, 2006)

RigaMortus2 said:
			
		

> A level 1 Wizard/Sorc can take Precocious Apprentice feat (Complete Arcane p. 182) and take Melf's Acid Arrow as their 2nd level spell.  Then they can do Acidic Splatter all day long and deal 2d6 acid damage all day long.  Not bad for a level 1 Character



That complete arcane feat gives a level 1 char a level 2 spell?


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## Falling Icicle (Dec 28, 2006)

rgard said:
			
		

> The first sentence of the Practiced Spellcaster feat does say 'spells', but we always let it apply to EB blast damage.  Rationale was that the EB's save can be boosted by Spell Penetration.




I think alot of feats don't technically benefit the Warlock class as much as they should since the Warlock class came into the game after those feats were published, and even many of the newer feats don't take Warlocks into account because they are a class appearing in a supplement rather than a core rule book. This is where DMs are encouraged to use their discretion. I think that Practiced Spellcaster should apply to EB damage. After all, a Wizard or other caster who takes that feat does more damage with his spells, why shouldn't a Warlock do more damage with his blast?


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## saucercrab (Dec 28, 2006)

Falling Icicle said:
			
		

> I think alot of feats don't technically benefit the Warlock class as much as they should since the Warlock class came into the game after those feats were published, and even many of the newer feats don't take Warlocks into account because they are a class appearing in a supplement rather than a core rule book. This is where DMs are encouraged to use their discretion. I think that Practiced Spellcaster should apply to EB damage. After all, a Wizard or other caster who takes that feat does more damage with his spells, why shouldn't a Warlock do more damage with his blast?



My group just HR'ed a Practiced Invoker feat, to go along with Practiced Spellcaster & Practiced Manifester; an older issue of _Dragon_ even has one for soulknives (Practiced Mindblade, IIRC). 

One of the easier things to HR, IMO.


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## Falling Icicle (Dec 28, 2006)

saucercrab said:
			
		

> My group just HR'ed a Practiced Invoker feat, to go along with Practiced Spellcaster & Practiced Manifester; an older issue of _Dragon_ even has one for soulknives (Practiced Mindblade, IIRC).
> 
> One of the easier things to HR, IMO.




That's an even better idea.


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## rgard (Dec 28, 2006)

Falling Icicle said:
			
		

> That's an even better idea.




Agreed!  Nicely done!


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## saucercrab (Dec 28, 2006)

Um, thanks both.


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## Dracomeander (Dec 28, 2006)

Votan said:
			
		

> Yep and they are in the same book.  A wizard with Acidic Splatter actually pulls ahead on damage from a Warlock at Level 13 assuming he uses a spell of his highest level for the reserve.  By then his range is 65 feet.




Sorry for the threadjack, but I just had to chime in on this one. 

You are reading the reserve feat wrong. The range for Acidic Splatter and most reserve feats that have a variable range is based on the level of the spell being used to fuel the reserve feat. Not the level of the caster using the reserve feat. Therefore a 7th level spell used to fuel the feat nets a range of 35 ft *not* 65 ft for a 13th level caster.

It looks like you've already resolved the character's flavor and went with the Eldritch Theurge. I think it's a great concept PrC and am working one up myself for a backup character for one of my games. It takes longer to reach full power but has loads more versatility than trying to do it  all with reserve feats.


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## RigaMortus2 (Dec 28, 2006)

Darklone said:
			
		

> That complete arcane feat gives a level 1 char a level 2 spell?




Yes.  The only drawback is that you have to make a caster level check vs DC 8 to cast it.  Since you are not going to be casting it though, no problem .  Once you get 2nd level spells, the feat basically becomes "Extra Slot" as it doesn't do much for you at that point.


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## Darklone (Dec 28, 2006)

RigaMortus2 said:
			
		

> Yes.  The only drawback is that you have to make a caster level check vs DC 8 to cast it.  Since you are not going to be casting it though, no problem .  Once you get 2nd level spells, the feat basically becomes "Extra Slot" as it doesn't do much for you at that point.



Well... doesn't sound too bad. Thanks, RM.


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## satori01 (Dec 29, 2006)

RigaMortus2 said:
			
		

> A level 1 Wizard/Sorc can take Precocious Apprentice feat (Complete Arcane p. 182) and take Melf's Acid Arrow as their 2nd level spell.  Then they can do Acidic Splatter all day long and deal 2d6 acid damage all day long.  Not bad for a level 1 Character




Not to be harsh here, but you tout that feat like you were it's agent.  Any 'build' off Precocious Apprentice is fragile at best, as Complete Arcane identifies the Feat as an optional feat appropriate for High/Advanced Magic games.

Any time a feat is segregated from the other feats in the book, makes me think that many DMs will consider it a bad apple.


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## rgard (Dec 29, 2006)

RigaMortus2 said:
			
		

> Yes.  The only drawback is that you have to make a caster level check vs DC 8 to cast it.  Since you are not going to be casting it though, no problem .  Once you get 2nd level spells, the feat basically becomes "Extra Slot" as it doesn't do much for you at that point.




I'd have the pc roll the claster level check vs DC 8 every time you try to use the feat.  That should even things out.


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## Shellman (Dec 29, 2006)

rgard said:
			
		

> The first sentence of the Practiced Spellcaster feat does say 'spells', but we always let it apply to EB blast damage.  Rationale was that the EB's save can be boosted by Spell Penetration.




Really!

    I always thought Practiced Spellcaster did not apply to a Warlock. The EB is a SLA not a spell. Being a SLA, EB cannot be boosted by Spell Penetration but it can be with ability focus.

Thats the way my DM's have all rulled it.


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## rgard (Dec 29, 2006)

Shellman said:
			
		

> Really!
> 
> I always thought Practiced Spellcaster did not apply to a Warlock. The EB is a SLA not a spell. Being a SLA, EB cannot be boosted by Spell Penetration but it can be with ability focus.
> 
> Thats the way my DM's have all rulled it.




See Practiced Invoker above.  It solves any hair splitting nicely.


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## rgard (Dec 29, 2006)

Shellman said:
			
		

> Really!
> 
> <SNIP>
> 
> ...




Yes it can.  Read the 3rd paragraph of the Warlock's Eldritch Blast description.  Specifically mentions Spell Penetration as it applies to Eldritch Blast (being used to overcome spell resistance.)  

Your DMs are welcome to rule otherwise.

Thanks,
Rich


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## Shellman (Dec 31, 2006)

rgard said:
			
		

> See Practiced Invoker above.  It solves any hair splitting nicely.




OK, but that was a house rule not a published option by WoTC.


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## Darklone (Dec 31, 2006)

rgard said:
			
		

> I'd have the pc roll the claster level check vs DC 8 every time you try to use the feat.  That should even things out.



I wouldn't care so much about Acidic Splatter... the range is 10 ft. Fiery Burst looks worse.

And the Precocious Apprentice feat only helps at the first few levels to get a 2d6 touch attack or area damage both at poor ranges. Compared to a fighters greatsword, I don't care.


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## Votan (Dec 31, 2006)

Darklone said:
			
		

> I wouldn't care so much about Acidic Splatter... the range is 10 ft. Fiery Burst looks worse.
> 
> And the Precocious Apprentice feat only helps at the first few levels to get a 2d6 touch attack or area damage both at poor ranges. Compared to a fighters greatsword, I don't care.




Heck, this is the time frame in which wizards and sorcerers have a very hard time contributing to the party (1st and 2nd level).  Sure, it is true that many tricks have been proposed to make this time frame less painful.  This one is hardly an unbalanced option and means that the character is stronger at low levels but weaker at high levels (the precocious apprentice feat rapidly beocmes useless).  

I would be happy with a player who made his or her character more linear in power curve to the benefit of a smoother game.


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## Seeten (Jan 2, 2007)

The benefit of Precocious apprentice is not in the ability to keep up with the greatsword, its the ability to sneak into PrC's several levels early, by means of being able to cast "2nd level Arcane Spells" as a 1st level wizard.


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## diggerariel (Apr 5, 2007)

*Armor Advice?*

One of the advantages of a Warlock is the ability to wear light armor & still use invocations.  If you were to go the Eldritich Theurge route, then you would  either mulit-class as a warlock/wizard or warlock/sorcerer.  I'm not a huge rules guy, but wouldn't this mean that once you started gaining levels as say a sorcerer that you would have arcane spell failure possiblities due to your wearing light armor?  If this is true, then wouldn't this mean that your going the Eldritch Theurge route is taking away a fairly good warlock advantage for good (abiility to wear light armor)??

Is there something I'm missing here?  What are your options to getting around this or should you just accept that as an Eldritch Theurge, you won't be wearing armor?  Any & all advice is appreciated.


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## satori01 (Apr 5, 2007)

Not necessarily... a Warmage/Warlock could still easily qualify for the class, and thus be able to cast in Light Armor.  Same goes for Bard/Warlock, ( a combo you would probably never see, but it has some good aspects, blast a bad guy while laying down an area buff on your friends).

The Twilight magic armor enchantment from the Magic Item Compendium also reduces ASF on armors.


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## rgard (Apr 5, 2007)

diggerariel said:
			
		

> One of the advantages of a Warlock is the ability to wear light armor & still use invocations.  If you were to go the Eldritich Theurge route, then you would  either mulit-class as a warlock/wizard or warlock/sorcerer.  I'm not a huge rules guy, but wouldn't this mean that once you started gaining levels as say a sorcerer that you would have arcane spell failure possiblities due to your wearing light armor?  If this is true, then wouldn't this mean that your going the Eldritch Theurge route is taking away a fairly good warlock advantage for good (abiility to wear light armor)??
> 
> Is there something I'm missing here?  What are your options to getting around this or should you just accept that as an Eldritch Theurge, you won't be wearing armor?  Any & all advice is appreciated.




If you really want to cast light armor, play a Battle Sorcerer/Warlock/ET.  The Battle Sorcerer is in UA.

Either that or take a level in Urban Savant (Cityscape, I think.)

Thanks,
Rich


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## Shellman (Apr 6, 2007)

saucercrab said:
			
		

> Additionally, can a sorcerer/warlock enter eldritch theurge? Or is it limited to wizard/warlocks?




I am currently playing a Sorcerer 4 (Metamagic specialist)/ Warlock 4/ Eldritch Theurge 6. This works nicely since you can focus on a good Dex and high Cha score for your abilities. IMO Sorcer fits better with this PrC than wizard!

The Eldritch Spellblast = area spell on to EB
Eldritch Spellweave = essence invocation on to a spell.
These can be really devistating when combining a spell with your EB.

Iv'e used the heck out of fireball, explosive cascade and some of the new invocations. 

I am playing in a game where the party is stuck in a frozen layer of the abyss. We are fighting Frost Giants all over the place, so I picked up Baneful Blast (lesser invocation) to add 2d6 EB damage to evil outsiders.

SR can be a problem, so I picked up Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration! 
I picked up Practiced Spellcaster to up my caster level for my sorcerer spells.

There is a new Dark Invocation called Penetrating Blast that adds +4 CL for your EB and an additional effect (can't remember what it does right now).

Just food for thought! Hope this helps.


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## rgard (Apr 6, 2007)

Shellman said:
			
		

> I am currently playing a Sorcerer 4 (Metamagic specialist)/ Warlock 4/ Eldritch Theurge 6. This works nicely since you can focus on a good Dex and high Cha score for your abilities. IMO Sorcer fits better with this PrC than wizard!
> 
> The Eldritch Spellblast = area spell on to EB
> Eldritch Spellweave = essence invocation on to a spell.
> ...




I agree, it's a better fit with Sorcerer even if you have to wait a level.  The charisma synergy is great.  

I'm thinking my next character will be a warlock/battle sorcerer/ET.  Will be taking hideous blow at first level and concentrating my sorcerer spells as buffs and of course True Strike.

Thanks,
Rich


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## JypsRidic (Mar 23, 2018)

Sorry for the thread necromancy, but I got through 5 pages of this and no one pointed out the obvious: Eldritch Theurge is to benefit a warlock build, not a typical caster build. 

Dip your first level into beguiler with precocious apprentice, and if you DM is a real stickler about the plural in the 'second level spells' line of the PrC prereqs be a silverbrow human and take extra spell at level 3. Then levels 2-5 are the first four levels of Warlock and you're all set to enter the Theurge. Snag a dip into mindbender if you're doing beguiler and throw that caster level advancement onto beguiler to get access to an addition level of spells with virtually no cost to the warlock features

Beguiler1/warlock4/eldritch theurge x/mindbender 1/eldritch theurge (10-x)/warlock5
You get a very warlocky warlock with a lot more versatility and no penalties for being in light armor. Replace beguiler with sorcerer for more versatility and less armor or warmage if you still think damage is the way to go in 3.5

Edit: I just reread the feat for the game I'm currently in and Extra Spell wouldn't work like this, but three levels of beguiler or warmage would get you the advanced learning which would still get you in early if your dm is a stickler. Just don't bring it up and hope they don't think about it.


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