# Xanathar's War Mage is Gandalf, Dr Strange, and Elric



## Morrus (Oct 16, 2017)

WotC's Jeremy Crawford talks to D&D Beyond about the war mage. "So War Magic is a new arcane tradition for wizards in_ Xanathar's Guide to Everything_ that really weaves together elements of the school of evocation and the school of abjuration, both of which appear in the _Player's Handbook_.  And what we were doing war magic is exploring that intersection between two different schools. Because in the Player's Handbook, each wizard focuses on a single school. Granted, wizards can cast spells from many schools of magic, but they're each essentially a specialist, so we decided "What would a wizard look like who is actually good at several of these different types of magic", and specifically a wizard who was all about being on a battlefield and being this war mage, someone who is at home next to an army, and not only has the ability to lay waste to the other side but who also is resilient, who can survive."

[video=youtube;w-riMfi8eio]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-riMfi8eio&amp;feature=youtu.be[/video]​

"In one of the little story bits in the war magic section in _Xanathar's Guide_, there's this little bit where a war mage is saying "of an evoker(?) what good is it for me to be able to lay waste to my foes if I'm dead?", so again this person who values their ability to stay alive as much as they value defeating their opponents.

We also wanted this to be in some ways a less bookish wizard. Wizards are all at heart bookish. They are the class that are partially defined by the fact that they carry around this book of spells and they add spells to it, in a way they are the game's academic, they are the game's librarian, the games' sage, or the character in the party who's gathering strange bits lore, and many of those strange bits of lore are magic that go into the books. But we wanted to branch out a bit and have a wizard again who's a bit more active and again would feel at home right in the thick of things when battle breaks out.  

The war mage in addition to being able to deal a certain amount of extra damage with these things called "power surges" also has a chance of acting faster in battle than other characters. The war mage gets to add their intelligence modifier to their initiative rolls in addition to their dexterity modifier, and this is representing their tactical genius, that in addition to their physical reaction contributing to when they get to act in battle, it's also the quickness of their wits.

This actually is a little side note, is something we have toyed around with over the years of doing with the initiative system itself, of actually working in wits along with your physical agility. Obviously we did not do it with the 5th Edition initiative system, but there's a glimmer of it here in the war mage. 

The war mage also is a little bit of an evolution of an earlier wizard that we toyed around with in Unearthed Arcana, and that was the lore wizard. That was a wizard who was also very good at dealing damage, but also at manipulating spells. That wizard frankly had a mixed response, there were many people who really loved it but also many people who rightly pointed out that it was so powerful that it had a potential to eclipse other wizards in the game. We basically went back to the drawing board, took some the concepts we liked about that wizard, and incorporated them into the tradition of war magic.

War magic, also one of the fun things about it is, these wizards have essentially an innate shield spell. It's not the shield spell itself, but an ability to suddenly deflect damage coming in. In stories it's often been one of my favourite thing visually whenever wizards shield things, there's something visually satisfying about it, something Doctor Strange does a ton of in the old Doctor Strange comics, Gandalf of course does it on the bridge of Khazad Dum. It actually a visual trope associated with wizards that I find always just appealing. There's something nice playing the wizards to basically go "Nope, you're not getting me, you're not getting my friends."  And so war mages have this innate ability to do that, and once they get to higher level they're able to then even turn that incoming damage against the person who attacked them. So they not only say "Nope" but deflect it back at the other person, which I think is an exciting visceral way being a wizard, and that was again our goal with the subclass. This is the wizard of action.

Now some people might wonder how in the end is it really different form the school of evocation. Evokers are all about dealing lots of damage. You can almost imagine evokers, especially on the battlefield, as being the artillery wizards way back with the general, calling down fire on the opposing forces, whereas the war mage is going to the one down there near the front line standing beside the fighter and the paladin and others, right there deflecting the foes's attacks and also breaking the spells of their opponents. Because the other element that's really fun about the war mage is if they counterpsell or dispel other peoples' magic, they can take that energy and use it for a power surge which they can then use to power up another spell and cause it do deal more damage. So they're also kind of great at fighting other wizards and other spell casters and using their magic against them.

So again these are the fighting wizards. The tradition of war magic is, I think, storywise particularly good if you're playing a character who might be a dwarf for instance, or a member of a culture that values martial prowess far more than book learning. It also is a strong choice if you use the multi classing rules and you might be playing a fighter or some other character who's not a magic user who decides to become a wizard and weave that magic in with their martial abilities. So again, this is really for the person who wants to play that wizard who feels less like an academic and more the person of action who wields spells as weapons in dungeons, on battlefields, and elsewhere.

So its  tweak of the wizard. Honestly the wizard more than any of our other classes has fantastic and pretty comprehensive subclass coverage in the _Player's Handbook_. The wizard has a lot of subclasses that cover many different thematic bases for conjuring creatures for other dimensions to altering the physical form of things to foreseeing the future to raining fire down on other people to teleportation, to raising the dead. We run the gamut because basically we have a subclass in the Player's Handbook for every school of magic in the game. 

So this really is sort of getting at a niche type of wizard, this warrior type mage, and delving into that. And that is a combination of elements, the warrior and the mage, that D&D players have been fascinated wth since the game originally came out. It goes all the way back to the original Elf character back when Elf wasn't a race but was in fact a class. It combined elements of fighting and magic use. And also influenced by Elric stories where you have somebody who has magical billy but is also wielding sword. People are always fascinated by mixing these two together.

Now! The war mage has no particular special ability with weapon use, but its going into that same aesthetic realm of the magic user who is at home on a battlefield that again D&D players have been fascinated by going back to the 70s."

_(Phew. That was a long one to transcribe! - Morrus)_






[FONT=&amp]*Save*[/FONT][FONT=&amp]*Save*[/FONT]​


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## Kobold Avenger (Oct 16, 2017)

The one Wizard subclass is not the Theurge?  That goes against most predictions even mine...


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## Leatherhead (Oct 16, 2017)

I'm not surprised the War Wizard is the one they slipped in. 

But I'm still disappointed they went with the least evocative (heh) subclass, instead of making the two interesting subclasses work. Another combat wizard for the pile, I suppose.


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## gyor (Oct 16, 2017)

I understand the decision,  the other two we're too controversial. 

 Still I like the War Mage, and I can see where it fits best in FR,  the War Wizards of Cormyr.


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## Oreot (Oct 16, 2017)

I like the idea, would've liked it more as a front line Sorc subclass.  Innate casting plus martial training ala the 3.5 War Mage.


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## Matthan (Oct 16, 2017)

I'm fine with the War Wizard, but I'm sad about the Lore Master getting scuttled.  I know the Lore Master needed to be tweaked/toned down, but when I play a wizard, I really want him to be the smartest guy in the room.  Doubling proficiency in Arcana (without multiclassing into Knowledge cleric) would be a really swell thing for a wizard subclass to offer.


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## variant (Oct 16, 2017)

Very disappointed that the Lore Master isn't making it into the book. I want to play a generalist, not a war mage. It's a lousy excuse that it's overpowered to not include it when every subclass needs balanced before it's put into the book.


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## Parmandur (Oct 16, 2017)

I liked the Theurge, hope to see it finalized someday. This sounds like a great choice for High Elves, Dwarves or Hobgoblins.


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## AverageCitizen (Oct 16, 2017)

My melee abjurer is about to become obsolete


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## cbwjm (Oct 16, 2017)

I found the war mage in UA to be rather dull, admittedly they might have tweaked it to be more interesting, I will have to wait and see, what I was really hoping for was the lore master or the theurge. Mind you, i don't play AL so I guess I can still use the UA versions.


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## gyor (Oct 16, 2017)

Matthan said:


> I'm fine with the War Wizard, but I'm sad about the Lore Master getting scuttled.  I know the Lore Master needed to be tweaked/toned down, but when I play a wizard, I really want him to be the smartest guy in the room.  Doubling proficiency in Arcana (without multiclassing into Knowledge cleric) would be a really swell thing for a wizard subclass to offer.




 I wouldn't be surprised if that part survives in a future Generalist Wizard subclass that it more knowledge focused,  not so much metamagic focused.


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## Matthan (Oct 16, 2017)

gyor said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if that part survives in a future Generalist Wizard subclass that it more knowledge focused,  not so much metamagic focused.




I imagine it will.  It just may be a while before we see it though.  Still excited for the book though.


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## pukunui (Oct 16, 2017)

cbwjm said:


> I found the war mage in UA to be rather dull ...



Same. It was the least interesting of all the new wizard subclasses they put out in UA. It's sad to learn that the war mage has killed the lore mage and taken its stuff. That doesn't even really make sense anyway. Why would the "action wizard" gobble up bits of the "even-more-bookish-than-usual wizard"? Meh.

It seems to me like they just went with the blandest option because it was a "safe" choice.


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## Kobold Avenger (Oct 16, 2017)

I have a distaste for the Generalist Wizard based on the fact a General Studies Degree from University doesn't get your far...

Declare a major like Necromancy or Divination!


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## IchneumonWasp (Oct 16, 2017)

I love the concept of the war mage, but I dislike the subclass. Having a slightly weaker and different version of the Shield spell as a class feature looks good, but in practice it means that you likely have to choose between using the class feature or casting the spell (it's not like a war mage is not going to learn the spell), which doesn't seem like a fun choice (do I want a slightly better version of the mechanic in exchance for a whole spell slot?).


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## BookBarbarian (Oct 16, 2017)

Kobold Avenger said:


> I have a distaste for the Generalist Wizard based on the fact a General Studies Degree from University doesn't get your far...
> 
> Declare a major like Necromancy or Divination!




If you think General Studies is bad, wait until you see the Communications Degree Wizard.


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## Li Shenron (Oct 16, 2017)

So... a spellcaster who is the specialist at laiding waste of the enemies but is also very relisient on the front line, huh? Oh, and it gets a bonus to initiative.

Sounds broken.

Adds nothing new to the game.

This and the Sun Soul Monk will be the lowest points of XGE. Thank God the rest sounds a lot better.


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## lostsanityreturned (Oct 16, 2017)

Ding dong the lore wizard is dead, thank the gods they could recognise the problems with it.
Now we have time to have a REAL lore wizard that is thematically appropriate and not just a giant mess of "no ribbon all capstone"  
If I had to choose one of the three wizards to have in the game it would have been conceptually lore, but it just wasn't right. 



pukunui said:


> Same. It was the least interesting of all the new wizard subclasses they put out in UA. It's sad to learn that the war mage has killed the lore mage and taken its stuff. That doesn't even really make sense anyway. Why would the "action wizard" gobble up bits of the "even-more-bookish-than-usual wizard"? Meh.
> 
> It seems to me like they just went with the blandest option because it was a "safe" choice.




Because the bookish option was by far the most action orientated option as well?


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## Jester David (Oct 16, 2017)

variant said:


> Very disappointed that the Lore Master isn't making it into the book. I want to play a generalist, not a war mage. It's a lousy excuse that it's overpowered to not include it when every subclass needs balanced before it's put into the book.




I think if it had tested better than the others it would have made it in. They decided to just go with one wizard archetype and this was the favourite.


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## Leatherhead (Oct 16, 2017)

The test was rigged  

Most people saw the power level was out of whack and gave it a score only based on that. Also, there was no "Is this subclass an interesting or cool concept ?" Question.


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## Gadget (Oct 16, 2017)

So, I know that they are trying to hype the subclass, but from the description one wonders why one would ever play another subclass!  Super powered artillery, plus super resilient?  Let me see, sounds like the wet dream of approximately every adventuring wizard ever.  We'll have to wait and see of course, but why play an Abjurer or Evoker?  Its not like you're denied access to spells of any particular school, after all.


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## Chaosmancer (Oct 17, 2017)

I'm actually a little more excited for this subclass than I was before. Mostly, it's the ability to take spell energy while Counterspelling. That is just a cool trick and no one else can currently do that. 


Also, let's not make this "super good at damage and super resilient" line of thinking go to far. They are "more resilient" than your average wizard. Just like a paper bag is "more resilient" than a wet paper bag. Unless their defensive abilities are incredibly substantial (like getting the shield spell at-will and a large bonus to hit points per level and the ability to heal themselves) then they are still going to fairly squishy and not want to be the focus of attacks. 


Though, I will say, it does make me wonder what a EK 6 /WW 14 would end up looking like. That could be a fun build for an NPC lord of a realm type character.


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## MoonSong (Oct 17, 2017)

Kobold Avenger said:


> The one Wizard subclass is not the Theurge?  That goes against most predictions even mine...



*
I called it. n_n*



Leatherhead said:


> I'm not surprised the War Wizard is the one they slipped in.
> 
> But I'm still disappointed they went with the least evocative (heh) subclass, instead of making the two interesting subclasses work. Another combat wizard for the pile, I suppose.



*

Truth is, there is not much room left for wizard to go.  The school traditions are too versatile, so a generalist has to go overboard in order to be worth it, problem is -as shown by the Lore Master- there is not a lot of space left without it overshadowing either bard or sorcerer. The Theurge had a similar problem, it overshadowed not just the cleric,but the Celestial Warlock and Divine Soul as well -And they are a big selling point of the book-. There has to be something wizard cannot do, even back in AD&D wizards had clear limits. 

I think we can hope for some wizard traditions in the future, there are lots of iconic versions in the settings: Wizards of High Sorcery, Defilers, Preservers, Red Wizards. I wouldn't hold my breath though. And I don't think Incantatrix would make it, as it has the same problem as Lore Master, stepping on other classes.*


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## Phazonfish (Oct 17, 2017)

This is immensely disappointing. I hoped for a fixed Lore Master. I expected the Theurge. The War Mage has no soul (and not in a good way like the Warlock). Is there a reason why the Wizard only got one subclass, but apparently there was enough room for most classes to get three subclasses and the Rogue to get four?!? (Sorry if this has been answered elsewhere, I haven't been keeping up) Oh well, at least the Grave domain Cleric made the cut.


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## Leatherhead (Oct 17, 2017)

MoonSong said:


> *Truth is ... there is not a lot of space left without it overshadowing either bard or sorcerer.*




I'm not convinced that stepping on the other classes toes, in terms of mechanics or themes, is a concern for the WotC devs anymore.


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## Parmandur (Oct 17, 2017)

Phazonfish said:


> This is immensely disappointing. I hoped for a fixed Lore Master. I expected the Theurge. The War Mage has no soul (and not in a good way like the Warlock). Is there a reason why the Wizard only got one subclass, but apparently there was enough room for most classes to get three subclasses and the Rogue to get four?!? (Sorry if this has been answered elsewhere, I haven't been keeping up) Oh well, at least the Grave domain Cleric made the cut.



The SCAG reprints we're stated to be based on popularity in the AL, and they did surveys to determine the desirability of the proposed new subclasses; guess Theurge didn't make the cut this go around.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Oct 17, 2017)

Kobold Avenger said:


> I have a distaste for the Generalist Wizard based on the fact a General Studies Degree from University doesn't get your far...
> 
> Declare a major like Necromancy or Divination!




Oddly enough, those are the 2 disciplines- along with Enchatment- that have the best average GPAs among their students.  Diviners are pretty damn good at finding out answers (duh).  Necromancers know where all the bodies are buried (literally), so they can dig up dirt on their profs and blackmail them for good scores.  Enchanters usually just charm their way to better grades, though some just Sleep their way to the top of the grading curve.


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## MoonSong (Oct 17, 2017)

Leatherhead said:


> I'm not convinced that stepping on the other classes toes, in terms of mechanics or themes, is a concern for the WotC devs anymore.



*

On the contrary, this selection of subclasses has convinced me they still care. (And maybe that they are out of ideas for wizard subclasses). They choose a safe token wizard subclass for a reason. Other casters may dabble in another class schtick, because it is resource intensive for them, -A sorcerer can twin a cure wounds, but it evens out with Life Cleric bonus, cleric can still memorize more spells than sorcerer gets to know- but wizard is just too flexible, and wizard subclasses need to compete with the existing ones, so they have to go overboard without enraging other classes players. Hell broke loose after the Theurge was put on UA... As popular as wizards are, they are also potentially divisive so designers need to be careful with them.

Edit: and maybe someday they'll come with a good idea for a generalist wizard, and the Theurge might see the print in the future once they've made their money back on Xanathar's and Sorcerer and Warlock players get to enjoy doing something wizards can't for a while. Not today though, but this isn't the last time we see new Archetypes in print.*


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## Azzy (Oct 17, 2017)

Phazonfish said:


> Is there a reason why the Wizard only got one subclass, but apparently there was enough room for most classes to get three subclasses and the Rogue to get four?!?




Yes, because the Wizard has more subclasses in the PHB than any other class (aside from the cleric), while most of the other classes have three or fewer subclasses. This brings all the classes (except for the druid) to at least five subclasses (counting both the PHB and Xanathar's). Here's the totals for each class (by way of [MENTION=6780330]Parmandur[/MENTION]):

Barbarian: 5
Bard: 5
Cleric: 9
Druid: 4
Fighter: 6
Monk: 6
Ranger: 5
Rogue: 7
Paladin: 5
Sorcerer: 5
Warlock: 5
Wizard: 9


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## TrippyHippy (Oct 17, 2017)

Elric's a Warlock, not a Wizard.


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## Phazonfish (Oct 17, 2017)

That's fair. Still sad though.


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## Ancalagon (Oct 17, 2017)

BookBarbarian said:


> If you think General Studies is bad, wait until you see the Communications Degree Wizard.




... the bard?


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## Ancalagon (Oct 17, 2017)

TrippyHippy said:


> Elric's a Warlock, not a Wizard.




Possibly.  He could also be a "Magus", a pathfinder class that doesn't exist in 5e (apparently similar to something called a "duskblade"?).  Anyway, a class that is more wizard than the EK, and more fighter than the bladesigner.

Either would be a better match than the war wizard...


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## Li Shenron (Oct 17, 2017)

Jester David said:


> I think if it had tested better than the others it would have made it in. They decided to just go with one wizard archetype and this was the favourite.




I would have gone with none. I don't think either of the three was interesting, the Lore Wizard would have been the best addition IF it had match its own name and concept (and even better if they tried to design it as a low-complexity option for the Wizard class), but it did not. To me it sounds like they HAD to include at least one archetype per class, or at least they could not release 2 per class while totally skipping one of the classes, so maybe they just picked the least worst. What is quite surprising is that with a class that's notoriously open to hundreds of wacky ideas (see 3e prestige classes), all they could come up with was an evoker-abjurer hybrid, a wizard-cleric hybrid, and a wizard-squared.


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## Li Shenron (Oct 17, 2017)

Parmandur said:


> The SCAG reprints we're stated to be based on popularity in the AL




I don't understand why they really did this.

You could say that because they are popular, they wanted them also in this new book so that people could combine them with the new material of this book, and play them thanks to the AL "+1 book" rule.

On the other hand this new book doesn't have THAT much player's crunch. There's many spells, but only the Storm Sorcerer will use them (in fact my original guess for SCAG reprints was Storm Sorcerer + Bladesinger Wizard + Arcana Cleric + Undying Warlock). 

So basically the only reason why someone already having SCAG and playing a Sun Soul Monk or Mastermind Rogue would want to buy them again and choose XGE as her +1 book for AL is... the racial feats? :/


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## Dualazi (Oct 17, 2017)

Li Shenron said:


> I don't understand why they really did this.
> 
> You could say that because they are popular, they wanted them also in this new book so that people could combine them with the new material of this book, and play them thanks to the AL "+1 book" rule.
> 
> ...




Yeah, this smells pretty rotten to me honestly. I didn't pick up the SCAG and while this turn ultimately vindicates that decision, it also means I have absolutely no reason to ever pick it up, discounted or otherwise. Seems like a poor model to release content that devalues your other content, but this isn't the first complaint I've had with D&D supplements either.

More pertinently related to the War Mage, I felt like the UA option was pretty bland and unfocused, so I hope to see some big changes in the release version. I'd also have liked to see a more creative thematic subclass, since the bladesinger really fits reasonably well as a battlemage once you divorce it from the silly race requirement. Hopefully in the future they'll get beyond "wizard, but slightly tougher" as a theme to build around.


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## TrippyHippy (Oct 17, 2017)

Ancalagon said:


> Possibly.  He could also be a "Magus", a pathfinder class that doesn't exist in 5e (apparently similar to something called a "duskblade"?).  Anyway, a class that is more wizard than the EK, and more fighter than the bladesigner.
> 
> Either would be a better match than the war wizard...



Elric gets all his magic from various pacts - Elemental lords, demonic lords, etc. He has a patreon demon - Arioch - who gifted him with a demon sword (Stormbringer) that sucks the souls out of victims and gives sustenance and vitality to Elric himself. 

That's a Warlock. Of the Blade.


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## lostsanityreturned (Oct 17, 2017)

Leatherhead said:


> The test was rigged
> 
> Most people saw the power level was out of whack and gave it a score only based on that. Also, there was no "Is this subclass an interesting or cool concept ?" Question.




As someone who has worked in statistics and information collection before. 

That freeform area at the end of certain sections and at the very end of a document. 

People who fill those out are the ones who tend to be investigated the most. The general numeric/value ratings are there to get a broader overlook as to how people have reacted and rated within the categories that people have written in further detail on.

Your concept of "it is only there because WotC thinks people don't want it and the vote skewed their perspective" is presumptuous and assumes that WotC are staffed with brain dead imbeciles who cannot sift through data and use it as a advisory rather than directional guide.

How they handled the playtest for 5e is a great example of how they approach playtesting and feedback.
You might not agree with their decision, but don't make up reasons as to why it happened other than you wanted the subclass and they didn't think what they created ended up working well for the concept.


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## gyor (Oct 17, 2017)

Below I've qouted from the original class chronicles article on the original 3.5e War Mage,  removing the part that no longer applies,  to help add flavour to the subclass for people. 

"To some of the cultures of Faerûn, the ability to destroy in a variety of ways is (or was) too much to ignore. To other cultures, warmages serve as elite battlefield generals, espousing the old adage that the best defense is overwhelming offense.

The ancient Raumathari battlemages were some of the most fearsome examples of warmages in Faerûnian history. While many of the battlemages were wizards and sorcerers, a significant portion of was made up of warmages. The art of this forlorn empire may be mostly lost, but those few who still practice it are extremely dangerous. Raumathari battlemagic involves a mixture of both destructive arcane magic with swordplay, blending the two in terrifying destructive synergy. When the Bronze Battletower (UnE -- the home of the powerful Raumathari battlemage Vostas) was under siege, her lover, a warmage by the name of Welbohn Khuul, defended it to his last breath. It is believed that Welbohn's spirit was absorbed into the tower after his death, leaving the warmage to haunt the tower forever. Locals whisper that the current resident, a renegade Wychlaran by the name of Iaokhna Nuchlev (NE female Rashemi sorcerer 3/druid 3/durthan[UnE] 3), is being driven mad by Welbohn Khuul's spirit (CN Raumathari male human ghost swashbuckler 3/warmage 6/Raumathari battlemage 10). Khuul is trying to drive out the durthan in the hopes of bringing students back to the Bronze Battletower to study battlemagic. He can't drive her out himself, because she hides in a room that is shielded from him in his undead state.

While many Thayans look down on warmages as narrow-minded louts, they can't deny the usefulness of having a contingent of these casters in their armies. From the perspective of the Red Wizards, warmages make excellent subjects because they are powerful weapons but lack the magical protections to defend themselves against mental control. A band of politically neutral warmages has arisen in Thay in recent years under the leadership of Norano Reked (N Mulan male warmage 14). Calling itself Daarthos Koruna after a strange magical artifact the members discovered in the Sunrise Mountains, the band serves Thay as mercenaries for hire. The Daarthos Koruna are seven circlets that render their wearers undetectable by magical and psionic means. For the most part, the band clears out the ruins of the Sunrise Mountains and Delhumide, but they have been known to perform special missions for a number of zulkirs.

Warmagic traditions have developed among a number of other races and lands. A small number of warmages are found among the War Wizards of Cormyr, though the order generally looks askance at the narrow focus of these members. The Shoon Imperium kept an elite cadre of warmages known as the sihirbalak. Many members fled to the Heartlands and Inner Sea lands after the fall of the Shoon Empire in 450 DR. Among the sun, moon, star, and wild elves, warmages are uncommon but do exist. They were instrumental in a number of battles against demonic hoards before the fall of Myth Drannor.

Currently, several warmagic are academies scattered across Faerûn. A small academy, appropriately known as the School of Warmagic, has been open for the last three years in Halarahh, the capital city of Halruaa. Though boasting only 50 students, this academy doesn't have the negative reputation that warmage schools have in other parts of Faerûn. A small department at the Wizard College of Gheldaneth in Mulhorand teaches warmages, though only 75 are enrolled. Some of the other students in the college look down on the warmagic students, but the nation sees them as an important line of defense in its continued existence. Small private academies also exist in Waterdeep, Silverymoon, and Suzail."


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## gyor (Oct 17, 2017)

Li Shenron said:


> I don't understand why they really did this.
> 
> You could say that because they are popular, they wanted them also in this new book so that people could combine them with the new material of this book, and play them thanks to the AL "+1 book" rule.
> 
> ...




 Multiclassing maybe.


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## AverageCitizen (Oct 17, 2017)

Li Shenron said:


> So... a spellcaster who is the specialist at laiding waste of the enemies but is also very relisient on the front line, huh? Oh, and it gets a bonus to initiative.
> 
> Sounds broken.




The interview and story quote suggest that the Evoker is focused on laying waste to enemies and the War Wizard is focused on staying alive.


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## AriochQ (Oct 17, 2017)

Swashbuckler Rogue/War Wizard with Alert feat = +20 initiative bonus at max Dex/Int/Cha..."I rolled a 40 for my initiative" [mic drop]


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## chunkosauruswrex (Oct 17, 2017)

BookBarbarian said:


> If you think General Studies is bad, wait until you see the Communications Degree Wizard.




So is Enchantment the English degree of Wizard schools


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## Random Bystander (Oct 17, 2017)

chunkosauruswrex said:


> So is Enchantment the English degree of Wizard schools



Some do find the writings of Tolkien to be almost hypnotic...


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## cbwjm (Oct 17, 2017)

Random Bystander said:


> Some do find the writings of Tolkien to be almost hypnotic...



 Well they certainly do put people to sleep.


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## Random Bystander (Oct 17, 2017)

cbwjm said:


> Well they certainly do put people to sleep.



Shun the unbeliever!


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## Yavathol (Oct 17, 2017)

I think the war wizard needs some way of converting ranged spells into touch or small cones..

If you're going to play a war wizard then you want to be in the front line, but there just aren't enough spells like burning hands and vampiric touch, so you end up with fireball and scorching ray or acid arrow, in which case you don't need to be on the front line, so you might as well be an evoker!


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## Parmandur (Oct 17, 2017)

Li Shenron said:


> I don't understand why they really did this.
> 
> You could say that because they are popular, they wanted them also in this new book so that people could combine them with the new material of this book, and play them thanks to the AL "+1 book" rule.
> 
> ...



There is also the background rules, but I dunno how that will interact with AL. They are basically trying not to force people to buy all the books to get the options they want for organized play, so... popular options get reprinted.


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## Leatherhead (Oct 18, 2017)

lostsanityreturned said:


> As someone who has worked in statistics and information collection before.
> 
> That freeform area at the end of certain sections and at the very end of a document.
> 
> ...




That was not my assertion, that was Jester David's assertion. He claimed that the War Wizard was the "favorite". I was making a joke (hence the obnoxious emoticon) about how there is no way for that to have been possibly true given the questions that were asked on the survey. 

Forgive me for not quoting him for context, I was on my phone at the time.


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## Savage Wombat (Oct 18, 2017)

TrippyHippy said:


> He has a patreon demon.




I am now imagining a warlock who gets spells from generous internet supporters.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Oct 18, 2017)

Savage Wombat said:


> I am now imagining a warlock who gets spells from generous internet supporters.




Actually...that could be a fun concept to play.  Figure out which Warlock spells are closest to the ones in Shadowrun, and it would really gel...

OTOH, there could be some unusual side effects or components.

"Mage, why does our Warlock go "Pew! Pew! Pew!" when using his Eldritch blast?"

"His Masters from beyond time and space demand it.  It pleases them."


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## Li Shenron (Oct 18, 2017)

Parmandur said:


> There is also the background rules, but I dunno how that will interact with AL. They are basically trying not to force people to buy all the books to get the options they want for organized play, so... popular options get reprinted.




Not sure but I think the background rules are narrative and non-mechanical, meant to help you write your background description i.e. you may not really need XGE to do so.


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## Parmandur (Oct 18, 2017)

Li Shenron said:


> Not sure but I think the background rules are narrative and non-mechanical, meant to help you write your background description i.e. you may not really need XGE to do so.



We really don't know yet; it's probably no different from making up a Background as is.

One of the main things they have talked about is growing organized play by making it accessible: reducing the need for numerous books for newbies. They have data on what characters people have actually made, and are likely to make in the future. Apparently, it isn't Undying Warlocks or Arcana Clerics that bring people to the table.


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## Li Shenron (Oct 18, 2017)

Parmandur said:


> One of the main things they have talked about is growing organized play by making it accessible: reducing the need for numerous books for newbies.




Makes sense, but it isn't without issues.

For a start, the +1 book rule is there pretty much to avoid excessive focus on optimized builds and possibly killer combos, although I don't think we're nowhere near the risks of 3e/PF and 4e!

But then reprinting stuff just because it's popular is pretty much against the whole idea of the +1 book limitation. Especially because "popular" might be not just because of concept coolness but sometimes also because of power, or at least I would expect that an otherwise weak option soon becomes unpopular. So if there is any character material that _might_ end up being mechanical exploitable, it's more probably the popular material rather than the unpopular.

We don't know for sure this was the criteria for reprinting... maybe it's the opposite, maybe they actually reprinted only stuff that they recognize as "safe" for combining with the new XGE material.

I also don't buy the idea of reducing the need for numerous books for newbies. Newbies should probably be encouraged to stick with the PHB until they aren't newbies anymore. If some of them want to jump ahead, it is more sensible _not_ to give them even more stuff in the extra book.

I am starting to think there can be other reasons for SCAG reprints...

At some point either Mearls or Crawford mentioned they were introducing a _change_ to the Swashbuckler, or did I daydream about this? I mean an actual (minor) revision of this subclass. What if this is actually the reason for the reprints? What if also the Sun Soul, Storm Sorcerer and Mastermind have been slightly updated?


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## Parmandur (Oct 18, 2017)

Li Shenron said:


> Makes sense, but it isn't without issues.
> 
> For a start, the +1 book rule is there pretty much to avoid excessive focus on optimized builds and possibly killer combos, although I don't think we're nowhere near the risks of 3e/PF and 4e!
> 
> ...



I believe they did mention a clarification in wording, but change might be strong.

Notably, none of the reprints are spellcasters, so they won't synergize with the new spells, nor the new spellcasters with the SCAG spells.


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## MoonSong (Oct 18, 2017)

Parmandur said:


> I believe they did mention a clarification in wording, but change might be strong.
> 
> Notably, none of the reprints are spellcasters, so they won't synergize with the new spells, nor the new spellcasters with the SCAG spells.




*Storm sorcerer is not a caster?*


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## MechaPilot (Oct 18, 2017)

TrippyHippy said:


> Elric's a Warlock, not a Wizard.




May be true (I've never read those books), but Gandalf's a plot contrivance, not a wizard.  He's DM ex-machina come to save the PCs from death.  Except for when he's actually around, then he's just a stoner who shops in the Norse myth version of Hot Topic and likes to occasionally set things on fire.


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## GloomyGus (Oct 18, 2017)

MechaPilot said:


> May be true (I've never read those books), but Gandalf's a plot contrivance, not a wizard.  He's DM ex-machina come to save the PCs from death.  Except for when he's actually around, then he's just a stoner who shops in the Norse myth version of Hot Topic and likes to occasionally set things on fire.




Let me just say, I would kill for a Norse myth version of Hot Topic.


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## Parmandur (Oct 18, 2017)

MoonSong said:


> *Storm sorcerer is not a caster?*



Ah, well, there you go: no mechanical reason, then, leaving AL as the probable motivation.


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## Salamandyr (Oct 18, 2017)

I'm a little confused...he mentions three characters who are about as different as it's possible to be from each other, and then says this one class can represent all three.

But it doesn't have any ability to use weapons, which is a signature feature of one, and a pretty darn major aspect of another?

Sorry, that just makes no sense and I don't buy it.  He's just pulling three names that are sort of prominent and ought really to already be represented in the game already (and _are_) and using them to try to create excitement.


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## Pauper (Oct 18, 2017)

"It also is a strong choice if you use the multi classing rules and you might be playing a fighter or some other character who's not a magic user who decides to become a wizard and weave that magic in with their martial abilities."

So the Wizard actually gets zero archetypes in XGtE...

--
Pauper


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## MoonSong (Oct 18, 2017)

Pauper said:


> "It also is a strong choice if you use the multi classing rules and you might be playing a fighter or some other character who's not a magic user who decides to become a wizard and weave that magic in with their martial abilities."
> 
> So the Wizard actually gets zero archetypes in XGtE...
> 
> ...



*
 As it should be ñ_ñ...*


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## Tony Vargas (Oct 18, 2017)

lostsanityreturned said:


> As someone who has worked in statistics and information collection before.
> That freeform area at the end of certain sections and at the very end of a document.
> People who fill those out are the ones who tend to be investigated the most.



Wizards has /investigated/ me?!?  Argh!  My privacy! 





Leatherhead said:


> I'm not convinced that stepping on the other classes toes, in terms of mechanics or themes, is a concern for the WotC devs anymore.



 I'd spin it as:  "5e is all but free of the heavy-handed niche protection that plagued the early game."


MechaPilot said:


> May be true (I've never read those books),



 Elric is a sickly ablino member of non-/pre-human, but very humanoid, species, the heir to a decadent empire that he helped destroy, and his family has had pacts with 'Gods' of Chaos, very much like D&D Demon Lords, really, that allow him to call for supernatural aid now and then, using knowledge he memorized as a child, and a ring, the Atrios, which symbolizes the pact.  

Moorcock conceived of Elric in a fit of pique when his Conan pastiche was panned by a critic for being, well, Conan pastiche.  So Elric is the anti-Conan.  Civilized, decadent, effete, and sickly where Conan is barbaric, strong, and vital.
 Magic-using where Conan cuts sorcerers in half.  Dependent on one magic sword rather than going through weapons like they were disposable.  (Though, perhaps ironically, Elric's Melnibone did fall to 'barbarians' (humans) and his people are dying out, being supplanted by the more vigorous, less civilized, human race, in keeping with REH's politically incorrect theories of history.)  Also, ironically, Elric of Melnibone was panned by a critic (who presumably never read it) as being just another Conan rip-off.

So, yeah, pact with an Evil power, demon bound in a sword, pact-implementfocus.  D&D warlock's pretty close in concept.  
Moorcock might even approve (or sue, whatever).



> but Gandalf's a plot contrivance, not a wizard.



And a maiar, not a human.  
He's also the exposition character... so much exposition...


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## Random Bystander (Oct 18, 2017)

I am also not seeing the link between the three characters, save that two of them use melee weapons as well as magic.


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## gideonpepys (Oct 19, 2017)

Who's "magical billy"? I don't remember him from the Elric novels.  I'll be buying Xanathar just to find out!


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## IgnatiusJ.Reilly (Oct 21, 2017)

If I wanted to 'lay waste to groups of enemies', I can't imagine swapping Sculpt Spell for any of the War Mage's abilities.


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## gyor (Oct 21, 2017)

I think it's not the characters so much as a single iconic ability they expressed,  the ability to use magic to shield/block an enemy for a time.


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## gyor (Oct 21, 2017)

IgnatiusJ.Reilly said:


> If I wanted to 'lay waste to groups of enemies', I can't imagine swapping Sculpt Spell for any of the War Mage's abilities.




 It's more I want lay waste to enemies while not getting stabbed in the throat. Mix of offence and defence and tactics. The Warmage is a better generalist ironically then the Lore Wizard.


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## Mephista (Oct 21, 2017)

Curious thought -  if they gave the War Wizard Expertise in Arcana, and kept the rest of the generic blaster abiltiies....  would that be a true generalist wizard?


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## gyor (Oct 21, 2017)

Mephista said:


> Curious thought -  if they gave the War Wizard Expertise in Arcana, and kept the rest of the generic blaster abiltiies....  would that be a true generalist wizard?




 You could replace Tactical with Expertise in Arcana and Historyif you wanted it to be more of a generalists wizard.


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## Kobold Boots (Oct 23, 2017)

gyor said:


> You could replace Tactical with Expertise in Arcana and Historyif you wanted it to be more of a generalists wizard.




This post resonated with me against the lions share of the other posts.

It’s well and good to discuss the things that you like and don’t like about any decision or publication.

But if you let anything you don’t like into your game it’s silly.  Since everything is more or less broken nearly all the time, House rule your game to be the way your players want it to be.  If the books are simply baselines for things there’s much less to be concerned about


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