# What is the best low-magic fantasy system?



## Jd Smith1 (Apr 15, 2020)

My group is ready for a low-magic setting, and 5e won't handle that. What's the best low-magic fantasy system?

I don't need a setting, just a system.


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## BrokenTwin (Apr 16, 2020)

That's gonna vary DRASTICALLY depending on what your players want out of the system. Have you looked at generic toolkit systems (Fate, Savage Worlds, GURPS, Genesys), or do you want a system focused on providing a low-magic fantasy feel? Does it need to be a d20 system, or is your group open to exploring other dice systems?

If they just want a low magic game on the D&D 5E chassis, look at Adventures in Middle Earth. Obviously, it's themed for a specific setting, but the fluff is easy enough to shift to your tastes, and the mechanics are good. Ironsworn is a good (and free!) game with strong PbtA (powered by the apocalypse) influences, but is strongly themed towards being adventurers who take on quests, which might not be what you're looking for.

Those are just the ones I have personal experience with. I know there's at least one Conan RPG, and probably dozens of other RPGs aimed at low-magic gaming that I haven't played or heard of.


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## Jd Smith1 (Apr 16, 2020)

Basically we're looking for less magic, as opposed to 5e where many classes have spells, and spellcasting dominates the game. 5e (and earlier variants) are out because of the prevalence of spellcasters.


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## chaochou (Apr 16, 2020)

Burning Wheel has a lot less overt spell-type magic, and a lot more that’s inherent - Elven song, for example, or Dwarven smithing.

Runequest always used to be playable with very little magic (1st-3rd editions), and common magic was mostly supplemental anyway.

The Riddle of Steel is hard to find, patchy and limited in scope, and concerned mainly with swordplay and the need to believe in a cause. Interesting, but niche.

Blades in the Dark again isn’t low magic, more low-visibility magic.


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## TwoSix (Apr 16, 2020)

Are you looking for something fundamentally D&D-like, in the vein of a low-magic OSR heartbreaker?

Or do you want to go further afield into more narrative style games, a la Fate and BitD?  They're very different types of games which don't always appeal to those with deep D&D backgrounds.


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## Jd Smith1 (Apr 16, 2020)

TwoSix said:


> Are you looking for something fundamentally D&D-like, in the vein of a low-magic OSR heartbreaker?
> 
> Or do you want to go further afield into more narrative style games, a la Fate and BitD?  They're very different types of games which don't always appeal to those with deep D&D backgrounds.




Definitely not FATE.

Conventional fantasy with a much smaller emphasis on spellcasting and magic in general.


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## TwoSix (Apr 16, 2020)

Jd Smith1 said:


> Definitely not FATE.
> 
> Conventional fantasy with a much smaller emphasis on spellcasting and magic in general.



Despite the ubiquity with which people ask, finding a D&D style game with low magic is surprisingly difficult.  I think the simplest reason is that D&D is fundamentally a game about advancement; without magic to explain how the characters progress, there's a pretty big hole for the system to fill and imperfect rationales as to how to do it.


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## Reynard (Apr 16, 2020)

Jd Smith1 said:


> Definitely not FATE.
> 
> Conventional fantasy with a much smaller emphasis on spellcasting and magic in general.



Adventures in Middle Earth does rare magic high fantasy really well (unsurprising since it is built to emulate Tolkien) on a 5e chassis so it is a relatively easy transition for D&D players. You'll have to do a little work to separate the Tolkien parts but that can be accomplished mostly by reskinning things and adding what you want rather than tearing out whole pieces.


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## Jd Smith1 (Apr 16, 2020)

Reynard said:


> Adventures in Middle Earth does rare magic high fantasy really well (unsurprising since it is built to emulate Tolkien) on a 5e chassis so it is a relatively easy transition for D&D players. You'll have to do a little work to separate the Tolkien parts but that can be accomplished mostly by reskinning things and adding what you want rather than tearing out whole pieces.




I'll check that out. If that doesn't work, I'm going with Dragon Warriors, whose magic system is much more subdued featuring fewer spells and greater restrictions on spellcasters.


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## atanakar (Apr 16, 2020)

Forbidden Lands:
«This may not be such a huge problem, however, as forcing your character to the limit of their abilities is the only way to gain ‘willpower’ – the resource used to perform special abilities and cast spells. The most practical way to generate willpower is to re-roll a failed check, which comes at the risk of taking damage while boosting reserves of inner strength.»


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## Argyle King (Apr 16, 2020)

I asked a similar question not long ago.









						Low Fantasy - Best Systems?
					

First, to prevent starting from a miscommunication: what do I mean by "low fantasy"?  The common literary definition does not quite fit what I want. I prefer something similar to the definitions found in GURPS Fantasy.  Regarding "High Fantasy" "If fantasy occupies the middle ground between myth...




					www.enworld.org


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## Jd Smith1 (Apr 16, 2020)

OK, I'm going to use Adventures in Middle Earth, with players restricted to the classes in AIME, so no spellcasters at all. 

Perfect solution.

Thanks for all the input!


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## EpicureanDM (Apr 16, 2020)

I know you called the problem solved, but I'll throw _Iron Heroes_ into the ring. Do you remember the old 3e book, _The Book of Nine Swords_? Imagine that approach to martial classes with the magic stripped way back. Each class (with one exception) takes a particular martial archetype (archer, skirmisher, etc.) and turns it into a full D&D class full of unique class abilities. It might be what you need.


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## Jd Smith1 (Apr 17, 2020)

EpicureanDM said:


> I know you called the problem solved, but I'll throw _Iron Heroes_ into the ring. Do you remember the old 3e book, _The Book of Nine Swords_? Imagine that approach to martial classes with the magic stripped way back. Each class (with one exception) takes a particular martial archetype (archer, skirmisher, etc.) and turns it into a full D&D class full of unique class abilities. It might be what you need.




I quit after AD&D (1e to you) and didn't return until 5e. IH doesn't seem to be well-received in reviews. I think I'll stick with AIME.


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## Guest 6801328 (Apr 17, 2020)

Jd Smith1 said:


> I quit after AD&D (1e to you)




WTF....?


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## Jd Smith1 (Apr 17, 2020)

Elfcrusher said:


> WTF....?




There are other RPGs, you know. I tried 5e starting in 2019. It's OK-ish.


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## Bilharzia (Apr 19, 2020)

Mythras might work, the system as a whole works with low or no magic (the Mythic Britain campaign is an example of this, where most PCs won't have any magical ability).
Mythras Imperative is a condensed version of the system


			Downloads
		

Imperative also now include "Folk Magic" which is the lowest powered of the 5 magic systems included in the core rules.


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## HorusArisen (Apr 19, 2020)

Bilharzia said:


> Mythras might work, the system as a whole works with low or no magic (the Mythic Britain campaign is an example of this, where most PCs won't have any magical ability).
> Mythras Imperative is a condensed version of the system
> 
> 
> ...




Beat me to it


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## The Hierophant (Apr 21, 2020)

Jd Smith1 said:


> Definitely not FATE.
> 
> Conventional fantasy with a much smaller emphasis on spellcasting and magic in general.




I'd also recommend Adventures in Middle Earth. It’s low magic 5e.


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## pming (Apr 21, 2020)

Hiya!

Warhammer Fantasy Role-Play (1st edition).

^_^

Paul L. Ming


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## Jd Smith1 (Apr 21, 2020)

pming said:


> Hiya!
> 
> Warhammer Fantasy Role-Play (1st edition).
> 
> ...




I love, and have used, the WH setting many times. But the system in any edition is junk.


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## Jd Smith1 (Apr 21, 2020)

The Hierophant said:


> I'd also recommend Adventures in Middle Earth. It’s low magic 5e.




See post #12.


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## S'mon (Apr 21, 2020)

Jd Smith1 said:


> Conventional fantasy with a much smaller emphasis on spellcasting and magic in general.




I'm using Mini Six in my low magic Primeval Thule campaign, it works very well - Mini Six: Bare Bones Edition - AntiPaladin Games | DriveThruRPG.com
There is a spell system but it's a lot less ubiquitous than 5e D&D.

Low Fantasy Gaming PRODUCTS & CONTENT does low magic D&D. Unlike AiME PCs can still have spells and it's towards the sword & sorcery side of fantasy.


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## Aldarc (Apr 21, 2020)

_Low Fantasy Gaming_ by Pickpocket Press 

_The Hero's Journey_ by Gallant Knight Games 

_Beyond the Wall and Other Adventures_ by Flatland Games


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## Bluenose (Apr 21, 2020)

S'mon said:


> Low Fantasy Gaming PRODUCTS & CONTENT does low magic D&D. Unlike AiME PCs can still have spells and it's towards the sword & sorcery side of fantasy.




Players can have some magic in AiME, though not entirely in the form of "spells".

The one game I'm surprised not to have seen mentioned is Modiphius' Conan: Adventures in an Age Undreamed Of. It's on the higher side of complexity (less than Gurps, more than Runequest or Mythras) and it is very much Sword & Sorcery, but it does low-magic rather well.


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## EpicureanDM (Apr 22, 2020)

Jd Smith1 said:


> I quit after AD&D (1e to you).



Oh, _Advanced_ Dungeons & Dragons? Never heard of it. Did it go by another name?


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## reelo (Apr 22, 2020)

Crypts & Things.

It's a heavily modded version of Basic D&D.
Health and Healing are interesting.
Magic does exist, but casting comes at the price of corruption.


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## Jaeger (Apr 22, 2020)

Jd Smith1 said:


> I love, and have used, the WH setting many times. But the system in any edition is junk.




100% true.

For a game that supposedly uses a straight forward d100% system - they always seem to make things too clever by half. And I've seen better play tested indie rpg's sold at conventions in the early 90's that came in a 3 ring binder, than what they did system wise with WHFRP 4e.

If I got my hands on WHFRP for version 5 fixing it would not be hard. I'd start with the OpenQuest d100 system, and adjust for flavor. Then follow it up with a 6 month open playtest to iron out the kinks. It just isn't that hard to get a playable system for WHFRP.




S'mon said:


> I'm using Mini Six in my low magic Primeval Thule campaign, it works very well - Mini Six: Bare Bones Edition - AntiPaladin Games | DriveThruRPG.com
> There is a spell system but it's a lot less ubiquitous than 5e D&D.
> 
> Low Fantasy Gaming PRODUCTS & CONTENT does low magic D&D. Unlike AiME PCs can still have spells and it's towards the sword & sorcery side of fantasy.




I'll second these, Low Fantasy Gaming hits a really decent sweet spot, and is worth a hard look. There is even a free PDF version you can get to see if you like it enough to plunk down cold hard cash for the dead tree version.

For me, AiME is still a little too 5e ish… Yes, magic is heavily toned down, but they still keep the hit point bloat to level 20, and the character creation/class ability thing is still a bit of a hot mess.

Mini Six for something a bit different, but more legwork to tune it to your campaign.


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## Jd Smith1 (Apr 22, 2020)

Jaeger said:


> I'll second these, Low Fantasy Gaming hits a really decent sweet spot, and is worth a hard look. There is even a free PDF version you can get to see if you like it enough to plunk down cold hard cash for the dead tree version.
> 
> For me, AiME is still a little too 5e ish… Yes, magic is heavily toned down, but they still keep the hit point bloat to level 20, and the character creation/class ability thing is still a bit of a hot mess.




I downloaded the free rules for Low Fantasy.

AiME is my current choice as I plan to run it with just the six classes listed for it; literally no spellcasters. Plus a different armor systemto replace the awful AC system.

Using VTT at the table, we already have a highly tactical game, and I believe that removing spellcasters should eliminate a lot of the 5e issues.

But whatever system we use, it must employ much of the standard dice, because my players have as of late been buying high-dollar sets, and they will not tolerate losing the ability to use them.


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## S'mon (Apr 23, 2020)

Jd Smith1 said:


> But whatever system we use, it must employ much of the standard dice, because my players have as of late been buying high-dollar sets, and they will not tolerate losing the ability to use them.




No Mini Six for you, then!


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## aramis erak (Apr 23, 2020)

King Arthur Pendragon. a 1d20 BRP derivative. All PC's Knights. Knights of Charlemagne is the same

Dragon Warriors - still a magic heavy setting, but lower key. (and it appears you are aware of that...) Most eolla use 1d20 ≤ (attack - defense) 

Romance of the Perilous Land - this could very easily be seen as a pseudoclone built off of DW. It uses opposed rolls (lower successful roll). It's more streamlined, fewer exceptions to the core mechanic.


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## Jd Smith1 (Apr 24, 2020)

aramis erak said:


> Romance of the Perilous Land - this could very easily be seen as a pseudoclone built off of DW. It uses opposed rolls (lower successful roll). It's more streamlined, fewer exceptions to the core mechanic.




I had never heard of Romance; at $1.99 for a Kindle copy (I don't buy any hard copy RPG items anymore), I'll certainly give it a look!


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## 3catcircus (Apr 25, 2020)

Harnmaster Gold.


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## Sir Brennen (Apr 26, 2020)

The Fantasy Trip is a system from the time of 1E, recently revived with a very successful Kickstarter. You could easily run a low magic game with it, and even the default setting doesn't nearly approach D&D levels of super-powerful spells flying around on a regular basis.


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## Ath-kethin (Apr 26, 2020)

Bluenose said:


> The one game I'm surprised not to have seen mentioned is Modiphius' Conan: Adventures in an Age Undreamed Of. It's on the higher side of complexity (less than Gurps, more than Runequest or Mythras) and it is very much Sword & Sorcery, but it does low-magic rather well.



I was going to make the same recommendation. It's a great system.

Though in my experience "low fantasy" is more a matter of managing player expectations and worldbuilding more than anything else. I've run low-magic sword & sorcery games using 5e with no problems at all, though for that purpose I really prefer RC era D&D just because it's more modular and doesn't drown players in endless mechanical options.


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## 3catcircus (Apr 26, 2020)

Ath-kethin said:


> I was going to make the same recommendation. It's a great system.
> 
> Though in my experience "low fantasy" is more a matter of managing player expectations and worldbuilding more than anything else. I've run low-magic sword & sorcery games using 5e with no problems at all, though for that purpose I really prefer RC era D&D just because it's more modular and doesn't drown players in endless mechanical options.




True - "low magic" sword & sorcery is vastly different than "low magic" western european medieval.


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## Ath-kethin (Apr 26, 2020)

3catcircus said:


> True - "low magic" sword & sorcery is vastly different than "low magic" western european medieval.



True dat.

Another prime piece of the puzzle is simply establishing the attitude that magic is dangerous or at least adversarial. No real mechanical changes need to be made; just ban full casters and maybe even partials and have magic be something only villains/enemies use. I ran an awesome Primeval Thule 5e game with those stipulations - though I did allow PC warlocks in that one.

For a European medieval setting just ban casters, full stop. Maybe allow the Magic Initiate feat if you feel daring. And that's all part of what I mean about managing players expectations and worldbuilding. 

Don't get me wrong; there are other systems that have more of those features "baked in." But it's all absolutely doable with D&D if a person doesn't want to shell out for a new game.


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## Jd Smith1 (Apr 26, 2020)

I'm going to stick with Adventures in Middle Earth, using only the classes listed in the setting book, which means no spellcaster PCs.  

That ought to do the trick.


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## aramis erak (Apr 27, 2020)

Jd Smith1 said:


> I'm going to stick with Adventures in Middle Earth, using only the classes listed in the setting book, which means no spellcaster PCs.
> 
> That ought to do the trick.




There are differences between «low magic» and «low-power magic»... 

The former is usually inclusive of the latter, but not always. Some of the best low-magic fantasy is simply slow-but-potent.

Tolkien is the latter. It's chock full of magic. very small and subtle magics. TOR replicates these, and AIME emulates TOR. Barely perceptible, unless you look for it. Not all magic is spells 

While I've got AIME, I've not run it (and found it a bit of a mess, organizationally), but it looks to recreate that low-power but pervasive magic.


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## Dormammu (Apr 27, 2020)

3catcircus said:


> Harnmaster Gold.



A bold, yet sexy, recommendation.


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## Tun Kai Poh (May 7, 2020)

I'm a bit late to the show but I do want to clarify that Romance of the Perilous Land doesn't use opposed rolls - it's just roll equal-or-under an attribute modified by a difficulty (sometimes based on level or HD of a creature, sometimes level of a spell).

My recent review is here:








						RPG Review : Romance of the Perilous Land (2019) | Role Over Play Dead
					

Romance of the Perilous Land is a lavishly-illustrated fantasy roleplaying game written by Scott Malthouse, set in a fantasy world inspired by the legend of King Arthur and a wide range of British folk tales.




					roleoverplaydead.com


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## atanakar (May 7, 2020)

Tun Kai Poh said:


> I'm a bit late to the show but I do want to clarify that Romance of the Perilous Land doesn't use opposed rolls - it's just roll equal-or-under an attribute modified by a difficulty (sometimes based on level or HD of a creature, sometimes level of a spell).
> 
> My recent review is here:
> 
> ...




Really interesting. The urge to order a copy is strong with this one. Have you played it yet?


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## Tun Kai Poh (May 7, 2020)

atanakar said:


> Really interesting. The urge to order a copy is strong with this one. Have you played it yet?



Nope, and I can totally understand if anyone is reluctant without a play report. I suspect the armour system will take a little getting used to.


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## atanakar (May 7, 2020)

Tun Kai Poh said:


> Nope, and I can totally understand if anyone is reluctant without a play report. I suspect the armour system will take a little getting used to.



I'm not stranger to ablative armour. Ordered my copy. Thank you for the review.


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