# Feats that Raise Ability Scores



## GrayIguana (Mar 25, 2003)

Does anyone out there allow feats that would raise one of a character's ability score?  For example, there could be a feat that allows a character to add +1 to their Strength score becuase they have focused on strengthening their body.  

I've not allowed this, but was wondering if anyone has and how it went in the game.  

This is actually leading to a PrC I have been working on. In my homebrew I have a god of strength.  He has taught his cultists the secrets of strength and how to build one's physical prowess.  The members of this cult would be in this PrC.


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## Tonguez (Mar 25, 2003)

NO IMHO such bonuses should apply to Skills not Ability scores (and their ought to be more Str based skills)

eg IMHO in D&D Str covers

1. Lifting/Carrying capacity
2. Striking Power
3. Damage Potential
4. Muscle Endurance

I'd allow a feat for each of these four aspects eg a Feat that means that a PC carrying capacity improves one step or gives BAb+2  or a Melee Smash Feat giving +2 Damage (Melee)


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## Thimble the Squit (Mar 26, 2003)

*Feats that give +2 BAB or +2 Damage?!*

+2 BAB or +2 Damage?!  These suggestions are so much better than Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization, I cannot begin to understand how you think this could be balanced.

+2 BAB would allow far earlier access to PrCs, which is why no ability grants additional BAB other than actual leveling-up, just bonuses to hit; furthermore, Weapon Focus grants only +1 to hit, for a single weapon.  Weapon Specialization is similarly only for a single chosen weapon.

I might allow a feat such as Feat of Strength, to grant +2 Strength for a single round, 1/day.  I'd allow their equivalents for each other ability score as well, and for characters to select the feat more than once, for additional times per day (but _not_ to raise the enhancement bonus).


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## Crothian (Mar 26, 2003)

They exist, they are all in the epic level handbook.


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## FireLance (Mar 26, 2003)

The Epic Level Handbook has Epic feats that allow a character to raise his ability scores by +1 per feat.  As such, it may be overpowered when introduced into a lower level game.  Nonetheless, if you're the DM, it's up to you to balance the game.

There is a 10-level PrC called "The Mighty Contender of Kord" in one of the Dragon magazines (#274? The one with a cleric or paladin smiting some demon/undead creature on the cover) which sounds very much like what you're looking for.  As you progress in the PrC, you gain a total of +2 to Strength.  However, it's specially tuned to clerics and (IIRC) has access to the Strength domain as a prerequisite.

Still, I see no problem with creating a PrC that increases your Strength.  If you want to open it out to more classes, you could change the prerequisites.


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## GrayIguana (Mar 26, 2003)

*Epic Feats*

I forgot about the ELH.  I knew I remembered seeing feats like this but couldn't remember where.  I also thought I saw a similar chain of feats elsewhere.  

I'll flesh out my ideas for the Cult of Strength PrC and hopefully post it soon for criticism.


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## IndyPendant (Mar 26, 2003)

A feat that allows a straight bonus to any one stat would be too powerful.  However, I have some feats that increase aspects of stats, that I have collected or adapted from various sources, and I am always looking for more that are sufficiently balanced:

Skillfulness [General]
You are more skillful than normal.
Benefit: You gain 4 additional skill points at 1st level, and 1 additional skill point per level thereafter.  These extra skill points are retroactive.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times.

Toughness [Fighter]
You are tougher than normal.
Benefit: You gain 1 additional hitpoint per level.  These additional hitpoints are retroactive.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times.
Note: This feat replaces the Toughness feat found in the PHB.

Magic Talent [Metamagic]
You have developed a natural talent for magic.
Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus to one spellcasting-related attribute (i.e., Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma)—but only for the purposes of bonus spells per level and DC checks for your spells.  This feat will not modify your skill points, saves, skill checks, or any other aspect of those attributes.


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## Hashmalum (Mar 26, 2003)

> Skillfulness [General]
> You are more skillful than normal.
> Benefit: You gain 4 additional skill points at 1st level, and 1 additional skill point per level thereafter. These extra skill points are retroactive.
> Special: You can gain this feat multiple times.



Retroactive? Ugh. No form of permanent Intelligence boost does that, which is what you are looking to partly duplicate here. Plus I am not a fan of the concept of feats, or anything else, working retroactively. I would rather see the players have to make real decisions; take feats at 1st level that pay off in the long term, or go for immediate survivability? But if you make feats that are retroactive, then there's no trade-off. What I do like is the concept of trading feats for skill points, which is why I created my own Skilled feat along similar lines (minus the retroactivity) and am keenly interested in hearing what others have to say about this one.



> Toughness [Fighter]
> You are tougher than normal.
> Benefit: You gain 1 additional hitpoint per level. These additional hitpoints are retroactive.
> Special: You can gain this feat multiple times.
> Note: This feat replaces the Toughness feat found in the PHB.



Let's see. In terms of hit points per effective level of requisite, this feat clearly surpasses every toughness feat in _Masters of the Wild_ and the _Epic Level Handbook_. This suggests that it might be too strong. On the other hand, it is clearly worthless at very low levels when characters need a hit point boost the most. So this is the rare feat that manages to both be too strong and too weak.



> Magic Talent [Metamagic]
> You have developed a natural talent for magic.
> Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus to one spellcasting-related attribute (i.e., Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma)—but only for the purposes of bonus spells per level and DC checks for your spells. This feat will not modify your skill points, saves, skill checks, or any other aspect of those attributes.



This sounds like Spellcasting Prodigy from the _Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting_ except that you don't have to take it at 1st level. There's already been considerable debate as to whether Spellcasting Prodigy is balanced, and removing the one real restriction it has makes it nearly certain that all spellcasters will take it. This feat is certainly strictly better than Extra Spell, since it also adds half a Spell Focus (for all schools, no less) and depending on the character's exact attribute score may grant more than one additional bonus spell. There's also the fact that more than one class can potentially benefit from it, unlike Spellcasting Prodigy (if the same character has both bard and sorcerer levels, for example) but since multiclassed spellcasters have a hard time anyway, that's not much of an issue.


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## Tonguez (Mar 26, 2003)

*Re: Feats that give +2 BAB or +2 Damage?!*



			
				Thimble the Squit said:
			
		

> *+2 BAB or +2 Damage?!  These suggestions are so much better than Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization, I cannot begin to understand how you think this could be balanced.
> *




Because I forgot to mention the the Prereq of Power Attack (Str 13) and BAb+1


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## Stalker0 (Mar 26, 2003)

For a low magic campaign, I think those feats could be quite nice. In a normal setting, however, they probably would be too powerful


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## Firzair (Mar 26, 2003)

Hi everybody,
IMC I have a feat "Raise Ability" that lets you raise an ability score just like every 4th character level lets you do it. Could be taken more than once for the same attribute. No balance problems so far (noone has taken it more than once so far, we're at level 12 now with regular feats for every odd character level).
It's mostly useful for the one time boost from an odd attribute value to the next bonus step. I don't think that's unbalanced. 

Greetings
Firzair


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## green slime (Mar 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by IndyPendant _
> *Skillfulness [General]
> You are more skillful than normal.
> Benefit: You gain 4 additional skill points at 1st level, and 1 additional skill point per level thereafter.  These extra skill points are retroactive.
> Special: You can gain this feat multiple times.*




Well, I'd only allow this feat to be taken at first level, and only once.



> _]Originally posted by IndyPendant _
> *Toughness [Fighter]
> You are tougher than normal.
> Benefit: You gain 1 additional hitpoint per level.  These additional hitpoints are retroactive.
> ...





In my campaign we altered toughness similarly, EXCEPT that we have placed a maximum of 20 hp gained, made it a prerequisite for Epic Toughness, AND allow it only to be taken once.




> _Originally posted by IndyPendant _






> *Magic Talent [Metamagic]
> You have developed a natural talent for magic.
> Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus to one spellcasting-related attribute (i.e., Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma)—but only for the purposes of bonus spells per level and DC checks for your spells.  This feat will not modify your skill points, saves, skill checks, or any other aspect of those attributes. *





And even here, this is Spellcasting Prodigy, without the 1st level only requirement, which we enforce. My opinion is that it is good to require this feat to be taken at 1st level, when the choices are tough.


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## green slime (Mar 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Firzair _
> *Hi everybody,
> IMC I have a feat "Raise Ability" that lets you raise an ability score just like every 4th character level lets you do it. Could be taken more than once for the same attribute. No balance problems so far (noone has taken it more than once so far, we're at level 12 now with regular feats for every odd character level).
> It's mostly useful for the one time boost from an odd attribute value to the next bonus step. I don't think that's unbalanced.
> ...





Hello Firzair...

Interesting. This is probably because there are lots of good feats out there. Let me see, you let every character take a feat every other level instead of every third, and have yet to see anyone take it more than once? Hmmm... Do you have many fighters?


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## Viktyr Gehrig (Mar 26, 2003)

Well, according to Four Color to Fantasy, a +2 bonus to any physical ability score is worth a feat and a half, while a +2 bonus to any mental ability score is worth a feat.

Other than moving Constitution into the less expensive column, I'd say it's just about right.

Increasing an ability score by +1 is just as problematic as odd-numbered racial adjustments, though it appears to be the preferred method of advancing your ability scores. The +5 limit to inherent bonuses from Wish also supports this.


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## Firzair (Mar 26, 2003)

green slime said:
			
		

> *[/color]
> 
> Hello Firzair...
> 
> Interesting. This is probably because there are lots of good feats out there. Let me see, you let every character take a feat every other level instead of every third, and have yet to see anyone take it more than once? Hmmm... Do you have many fighters? *




Hello Green Slime,
you've got it right, I changed the feat progression IMC. There are just two fighters, one monk, one cleric, one wizard and a rogue. I also changed the feat progression for monsters and NPCs so that they are all the same! It's a high powered campaign but balanced very well.
I also changed the magic system, wizards cast like sorcerers but are able to change their "memorized=known" spells every day by perparation, clerics cast spontanously every spell on their list and sorcerers can cast all day long with caster level checks against a DC set by the spell level with drawbacks for failed checks (there's some auto-failure for low rolls depending on spell level) and they can learn every spell on the wiz/sor list and every spell from the cleric or druid list one level higher.
It's quite some fun !

Greetings
Firzair


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## green slime (Mar 26, 2003)

Firzair said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Hello Green Slime,
> you've got it right, I changed the feat progression IMC. There are just two fighters, one monk, one cleric, one wizard and a rogue. I also changed the feat progression for monsters and NPCs so that they are all the same! It's a high powered campaign but balanced very well.
> ...




Hi Firzair!

While I'll agree with you, that your campaign sounds like great fun, such a high powered campaign, it does sort of change the context in which your feat suggestions can be described as not causing an issue... But it works in your game, obviously. 

IS there a document or online site that describes your house rules anywhere? I'd be interested in looking them over...


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## TwoSix (Mar 26, 2003)

Hashmalum said:
			
		

> *Retroactive? Ugh. No form of permanent Intelligence boost does that, which is what you are looking to partly duplicate here. Plus I am not a fan of the concept of feats, or anything else, working retroactively. I would rather see the players have to make real decisions; take feats at 1st level that pay off in the long term, or go for immediate survivability? But if you make feats that are retroactive, then there's no trade-off. What I do like is the concept of trading feats for skill points, which is why I created my own Skilled feat along similar lines (minus the retroactivity) and am keenly interested in hearing what others have to say about this one.
> *




I've never agreed with the retroactivity argument.  I think EVERYTHING you take should be retroactive, even Intelligence boosts.  The penalty for taking a feat later rather than earlier is a pretty simple one: *You don't have the feat until you take it.*  If you take a feat to gain skill points retroactively at 9th level instead of 1st level, the penalty you pay is you didn't have the extra skill points at levels 1-8.  

I'm a firm believer that all characters built should be easily deconstructed by level, so that it doesn't matter what order you took the levels in.  A character who took 5 levels of rogue, then 5 levels of fighter should look identical to a character who takes 5 levels of fighter, then 5 levels of rogue.  The rules don't support this as much as I would like, but hey, that's what house rules are for, right?


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## Hashmalum (Mar 26, 2003)

> I've never agreed with the retroactivity argument. I think EVERYTHING you take should be retroactive, even Intelligence boosts.



This isn't very realistic. Suppose that someone is of normal intelligence for most of their life, then suddenly is somehow boosted to genius IQ. Do you really think that the previously-normal person, who might have had to go over material three or four times that a natural genius would understand the first time, would really know everything that the natural genius would? No. He already wasted that extra time on redundant studies, and he's never, ever going to get it back. The natural genius had that extra time to study new things. He will never, ever catch up to the natural genius unless the latter slacks off.


> The penalty for taking a feat later rather than earlier is a pretty simple one: You don't have the feat until you take it.



But you have some other feat instead, one that has done you more immediate good.


> I'm a firm believer that all characters built should be easily deconstructed by level, so that it doesn't matter what order you took the levels in.



That would be nice from a game mechanical point of view, but...


> A character who took 5 levels of rogue, then 5 levels of fighter should look identical to a character who takes 5 levels of fighter, then 5 levels of rogue. The rules don't support this as much as I would like, but hey, that's what house rules are for, right?



You're fighting an uphill battle here. The max HP and quadruple skill points at first level rules are against you--just to start with. The amount of time and trouble it would take to create the new rules you want, to say nothing of the effort the players must invest in learning them, just doesn't seem in any way worth the minute gain in transparency that you achieve.


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## Nifft (Mar 26, 2003)

In terms of Feats, I'd say Sculpt Self is the closest to what you're looking for. Then, of course, you have to pay (XP, etc.) for the actual ability increase.

 -- Nifft


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## TwoSix (Mar 26, 2003)

Curse you, double post!


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## Adrian Grigore (Jan 23, 2018)

There is a class that gives very good bonuses to STR, in fact.  It's called War Hulk and is in the miniatures handbook.


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