# Wil Wheaton plays and reviews 4th.



## justanobody (Dec 18, 2008)

SuicideGirls > News > Geek > Wil Wheaton's Geek In Review: Keeping The Borderlands Alive

Site is NSFW maybe because of some images...



> I'm not going to attack people who can't stand 4E the same way I've seen some anti-4E people attack others for liking it, because that just reminds me of watching two guys with ponytails argue about which Linux distribution is better while they ignore the stripper grinding on the rail right next to them. (She's working really hard for those singles, guys. Show some respect.) I will say to the 4E haters, though, that *Hasbro's idiotic handling of third-party 4E support* (also a topic deserving its own column) has effectively alienated a huge portion of the indie publishing world, and there's going to be plenty of 3.5 support out there for a very long time. Paizo's Pathfinder and Green Ronin's True20 seem to make a lot of people very happy, too, and there are a ton of other systems out there, so it shouldn't be too hard to find something that fits your game and your circle of friends.




The bolded portion is about the best I have seen from Wil since Stand By Me. You should probably read the entire article though to see what all he says....


----------



## delericho (Dec 18, 2008)

Seems a reasonably fair review, with the caveat that it does apply only to his very specific and limited experiences with the system (both of which he notes in his review).

Wil's experiences with the game seem to mirror my own almost exactly, right up to the point where I actually played. I, too, was initially enthusiastic, then increasingly more wary as time went on. When I read the books, I was somewhat reassured, as they read a lot better than I had feared.

However, my actual play experience was a whole lot less positive. I won't go into any more depth than that, as I don't want to derail this thread or spark another edition war. In the end, my group agreed to set it aside, with the possibility of revisiting the game if and when we could recruit another two players (to bring us to the recommended 5).

In any event, I'm not particularly surprised that 4e has gained another positive review. And, to be honest, I'm glad he's having fun with the system.


----------



## Jack99 (Dec 18, 2008)

I could have written that article.


----------



## Leatherhead (Dec 18, 2008)

I am constantly amazed by the number of people who try to argue or refute the idea that WoW is like 4E, while not having played one and/or the other.


----------



## Fifth Element (Dec 18, 2008)

Props to justanobody for posting a link to a review which completely disagrees with him about 4E.

Mr. Wheaton is very positive about the game, and provides reasons for it. Hopefully my own experience (countdown: 3 days) will be as positive.


----------



## justanobody (Dec 18, 2008)

So you will finally play the worst RPG of all times in 3 days and have to change you sig to state that you have at least played the game then?


----------



## Fifth Element (Dec 18, 2008)

justanobody said:


> So you will finally play the worst RPG of all times in 3 days and have to change you sig to state that you have at least played the game then?



Um, the second part is true, yeah.


----------



## Wulf Ratbane (Dec 18, 2008)

Jack99 said:


> I could have written that article.




You got to finally set aside the full set of the rules you got a week before the release date, to play an unreleased class from the PH2 with the guys from Penny Arcade, and Scott Kurtz, with Chris Perkins acting as DM for an adventure he wrote just for you, through a marathon 10 hour session on location in Seattle?

What are the odds?


----------



## Monkey Boy (Dec 18, 2008)

Edit - Mustrum made me think better of my post.


----------



## Monkey Boy (Dec 18, 2008)

Wulf Ratbane said:


> You got to finally set aside the full set of the rules you got a week before the release date, to play an unreleased class from the PH2 with the guys from Penny Arcade, and Scott Kurtz, with Chris Perkins acting as DM for an adventure he wrote just for you, through a marathon 10 hour session on location in Seattle?
> 
> What are the odds?




I see where your going with this and agree.


----------



## Jack99 (Dec 18, 2008)

justanobody said:


> So you will finally play the worst RPG of all times in 3 days and have to change you sig to state that you have at least played the game then?




So you think 4e is the worst RPG of all times and yet you have posted no less than 1400 times in like 5 months about it? What does that say about you?



			
				Wulfy said:
			
		

> You got to finally set aside the full set of the rules you got a week before the release date, to play an unreleased class from the PH2 with the guys from Penny Arcade, and Scott Kurtz, with Chris Perkins acting as DM for an adventure he wrote just for you, through a marathon 10 hour session on location in Seattle?
> 
> What are the odds?



Blargh! I meant that his thoughts on 4e petty much mirrored mine..


----------



## Wulf Ratbane (Dec 18, 2008)

Monkey Boy said:


> I see where your going with this and agree.



No, you're probably taking it farther than intended. It came off snarkier on the second read. (Slightly.)

I'll say this, though:

ANY time I get to play Dungeons and Dragons for 10 hours straight, it's the best thing ever. Any edition.


----------



## Fifth Element (Dec 18, 2008)

Monkey Boy said:


> Wil never came across as a big D&D fan to me, even when he was writing those rather akward pieces in Dungeon mag. He can talk the talk to a point but just doesn't .. I don't know.. he just doesn't seem to be someone who has read/played/liked much 1e, 2e or 3e. Massawyrm from AICN comes across as far more D&D knowledgeable.



Okay? What does this have to do with playing and enjoying 4E?


----------



## Fifth Element (Dec 18, 2008)

Wulf Ratbane said:


> ANY time I get to play Dungeons and Dragons for 10 hours straight, it's the best thing ever. Any edition.



Yes.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Dec 18, 2008)

Wulf Ratbane said:


> You got to finally set aside the full set of the rules you got a week before the release date, to play an unreleased class from the PH2 with the guys from Penny Arcade, and Scott Kurtz, with Chris Perkins acting as DM for an adventure he wrote just for you, through a marathon 10 hour session on location in Seattle?
> 
> What are the odds?



It could also mean that Jack99 was merely good at writing fiction from the perspective of Wil Wheaton. Probably not a talent you can make a lot of money of, though maybe Wil would like a ghostwriter? 


---

Anyway, I couldn't have written that article. My initial feelings on 4E were a lot more positive from the beginning. I was a little skeptical at first, but reading the first previews and reading the preview books specifically, I couldn't help but think that this game would be awesome and I couldn't wait to play it. I even began incorporating some of its concepts into my _Iron Heroes_ games, and picked up Book of Nine Swords to get an insight into some of the ideas.

See, I am a lot better at judging games then other people, including Wil Wheaton! 



Fifth Element said:


> Yes.




The word you wanted to use in this post was "Awesome". *insert disappointed  head shake smiley* 



> Wil never came across as a big D&D fan to me, even when he was writing those rather akward pieces in Dungeon mag.



So it's about being a "true fan" of D&D again? Hey, you're right, we didn't have this topic in a while. Let's keep it that way.


----------



## Wulf Ratbane (Dec 18, 2008)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> I even began incorporating some of its concepts into my _Iron Heroes_ games, and picked up Book of Nine Swords to get an insight into some of the ideas.




Same here. I love most of 4e's design _concepts_. I just want them without all the unsavory parts of 4e.


----------



## justanobody (Dec 18, 2008)

Jack99 said:


> So you think 4e is the worst RPG of all times and yet you have posted no less than 1400 times in like 5 months about it? What does that say about you?




It was all about the signature comment.

"I haven't played 4th edition, so don't assume I am a fanboy."

Opposite of fanboy = hater right?

Less than three days will make the other statement also be the opposite as he will have then played 4th....




Fifth Element said:


> Okay? What does this have to do with playing and enjoying 4E?




Credibility. Was he just saying he liked it for the swag? Does he have a vested interest in D&D at all? Is his opinion in the review one you would trust? Do you trust him because his name and celebrity status, or because he knows what he is talking about?


----------



## Monkey Boy (Dec 18, 2008)

Fifth Element said:


> Okay? What does this have to do with playing and enjoying 4E?




Edit - Clearly I have used up my curmudgeon quota.

I don't think Wil is going to go home and run 4e. I don't think he has played much D&D in the past 10 years. I get the feeling from his review that he admits as much. That doesn't mean he didn't have fun, that his opinion is invalid or that 4e is not a nifty game.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Dec 18, 2008)

Wulf Ratbane said:


> Same here. I love most of 4e's design _concepts_. I just want them without all the unsavory parts of 4e.



 It's "sad" that some of us got what they hoped for, and others did not. But so is life, I guess. Maybe another time.


----------



## Mouseferatu (Dec 18, 2008)

Monkey Boy said:


> I call shenanigans on his claims to be knowledgeable about D&D. I claim shenanigans on the false aura of authority he seems to have assumed.
> 
> I'm glad he enjoyed his game. I doubt he will go home and play a 4e campaign, I'm sure he is to busy for it. I call shenanigans.
> 
> For the record I am DMing 4e and playing 1e. I enjoy both. My beef is more to do with Wil and his D&D credentials. I call shenanigans.




Based on what, exactly? Some nebulous "feeling" you got from reading his articles?

Seems a pretty feeble basis for calling someone a liar in a public forum. (Especially since, if you followed his blog, you'd know that he _is_ a regular gamer.)


----------



## Fifth Element (Dec 18, 2008)

justanobody said:


> Opposite of fanboy = hater right?



Actually no. There are more possibilities then fanboy and hater. There are many reasonable people in the middle that neither deny a game has any flaws, or deny the game has any merits.


----------



## Fifth Element (Dec 18, 2008)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> The word you wanted to use in this post was "Awesome". *insert disappointed  head shake smiley*



Hey, I've gotta keep it fresh. *Yes.* is the new *Awesome!* Feel free to use both, or either.



Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> So it's about being a "true fan" of D&D again? Hey, you're right, we didn't have this topic in a while. Let's keep it that way.



No *true* Scotsman would enjoy 4E!


----------



## Jack99 (Dec 18, 2008)

Wulf Ratbane said:


> No, you're probably taking it farther than intended. It came off snarkier on the second read. (Slightly.)



No worries, I thought you were pretty funny, albight at my expense, which is cool with me. 



justanobody said:


> It was all about the signature comment.
> 
> "I haven't played 4th edition, so don't assume I am a fanboy."
> 
> ...



Fair enough , although I do not think the world is limited to fanboys and haters.


----------



## Fifth Element (Dec 18, 2008)

justanobody said:


> It was all about the signature comment.



No, it wasn't _all _about the sig. There is nothing in the sig about the quality (or lack thereof) of 4E. That was all you.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Dec 18, 2008)

Fifth Element said:


> Actually no. There are more possibilities then fanboy and hater. There are many reasonable people in the middle that neither deny a game has any flaws, or deny the game has any merits.




Well, I think an opposite only makes sense if you have a certain "spectrum". This spectrum can be binary, but doesn't have to be. The things in between are not opposites to the extremes of the spectrum. 

The opposite to a fanboy is a hater. The opposite to a car is... what? A plane? A boat? A bike? A newspaper?  Is the opposite of an apple an orange?


----------



## Darkwolf71 (Dec 18, 2008)

Hmm, well I'll have to reserve my judgement until I can get home and read this. (I'm not entirely comfortable clicking on _any_ Suicidegirls link while at work. )

I do find it curious though, that he hadn't played the game even though he has 'had the full rules' since the week before release. Yeah, ok. He may have had fun with it, but it's not looking like Willie was chomping at the bit to dive in.


And I can only assume that he has somehow missed the more rabid of the 4e fans attacking others, because from this bit:







> I'm not going to attack people who can't stand 4E the same way I've seen some anti-4E people attack others for liking it, because that just reminds me of watching two guys with ponytails argue about which Linux distribution is better while they ignore the stripper grinding on the rail right next to them.



It would seem that any hostility is pretty much one sided.

Anyway, I'll try to reme,ber to read the article when I get home.


----------



## Plane Sailing (Dec 18, 2008)

I really enjoyed his writing style and enthusiasm. Nice to hear his 'voice' come over so clearly in the blog.

Cheers


----------



## Monkey Boy (Dec 18, 2008)

Mouseferatu said:


> Based on what, exactly? Some nebulous "feeling" you got from reading his articles?
> 
> Seems a pretty feeble basis for calling someone a liar in a public forum. (Especially since, if you followed his blog, you'd know that he _is_ a regular gamer.)




I edited my original post as it was ill considered. But since you bring it up I'll try and explain my thoughts on where I get my impression.

I agree with you that Wil is a gamer. I just don't see him talking about all the D&D he played except when he was a teenager. He admits to swapping his maths heavy 1e books and suggests an aversion to maths heavy games. For the last 20 odd years D&D has been maths heavy. I guess that leaves him playing WOD or GURPS. Nothing wrong with that.

I read through his blog and don't see much to do with playing D&D. There was the Gygax died post but not much else. Care to point me towards a particular post?

His Wil save articles came across as puff pieces at best. They demonstrated little knowledge of the game in it's current state. 

In my now edited post I didn't call him a liar. I do not question his Geek cred. I questioned his credibility on the subject of D&D from what I percieve to be his lack of actually playing the game. I think there is a stark comparison between his 4e review and Massawyrms.

Thats where I am coming from. Perhaps I should start a new thread 'Lets read Wil Save from the beginning'?


----------



## fba827 (Dec 18, 2008)

I was reading it, not so much to see what his opinion was (because, honestly, I don't worry so much about other people's opinion of editions except my own and the opinion of those I game with), but because I was curious to see what Mr Wheaton's personal style (of writing) was like -- was he drab, playbful, perverse, humorous, etc.  I mean, all I know him from is Wesley Crusher ST:TNG and, well, I never liked that _character_

I will say though, I was glad with how he closed regarding (my paraphrase) "it's not about the edition but about your DM/Friends/memories"

I do wonder:
1) What class he got to play?
2) What types of classes he generally likes to play (this most recent game aside)?


----------



## darjr (Dec 18, 2008)

fba827 said:


> I do wonder:
> 1) What class he got to play?
> 2) What types of classes he generally likes to play (this most recent game aside)?




Gotta save something for the podcast.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Dec 18, 2008)

fba827 said:


> I was reading it, not so much to see what his opinion was (because, honestly, I don't worry so much about other people's opinion of editions except my own and the opinion of those I game with), but because I was curious to see what Mr Wheaton's personal style (of writing) was like -- was he drab, playbful, perverse, humorous, etc.  I mean, all I know him from is Wesley Crusher ST:TNG and, well, I never liked that _character_



Since I never read Dragon or Dungeon (sometimes hard to get here, and I never became interested before the Adventure Paths and now DDI) and so never saw anything from Wil Wheaton except "Stand By Me" and "Startrek", I was surprised to find out he is actually more of a writer these days. I read his blog occasionally, and it's certainly amusing and interesting.
I am actually considering picking up one of his books now, just to figure out what he's talking about. Of course, the fact that he was Wesley Crusher is one of the reasons why I am considering it now, too. (I didn't mind Wesley! Why was I the only one?  )


----------



## Dinkeldog (Dec 18, 2008)

Okay, everyone, step right up here and take a chill pill.  Otherwise, you will be exiting the thread.


----------



## Phaezen (Dec 18, 2008)

fba827 said:


> I do wonder:
> 1) What class he got to play?




More tidbits from Wil's blog



			
				Wil Wheaton said:
			
		

> _His charisma is only 10, which doesn't give a bonus, but he's a striker so those points needed to go into strength. He has low charisma because he's arrogant and that puts people off. Hey, he's an Eladrin and he spent fifty years studying [redacted] at [redacted] so his social skills are a little lacking. It's like a football player who is tough but not particularly smart.
> _





Striker, requiring strength.  50 years of studying would point to it not being a Barbarian.  My guess would be Avenger?

Phaezen


----------



## Haffrung Helleyes (Dec 18, 2008)

*great article*

But, I enjoy most of his stuff.

Anyway, I just want to congratulate whoever at WoTC (marketing, I presume)  set this up.  Definitely not a hamfisted move!  Wil has the perfect combination of geeky fame, authentic gamer cred, and writing ability.

The article made me think about why it is that someone like Wil really likes 4E when I don't.  The truth is, I have more time to devote to gaming than he does, and I'm really, really good at math.  So two of the things about 3E that 4E seeks to change don't really matter to me.   And, as someone who has probably played a hell of a lot more Dungeons and Dragons than he has over the years, I am bothered more by continuity issues.

Hopefully he will write another column after he gets to DM a a game. 

Ken


----------



## DonTadow (Dec 18, 2008)

Monkey Boy said:


> I edited my original post as it was ill considered. But since you bring it up I'll try and explain my thoughts on where I get my impression.
> 
> I agree with you that Wil is a gamer. I just don't see him talking about all the D&D he played except when he was a teenager. He admits to swapping his maths heavy 1e books and suggests an aversion to maths heavy games. For the last 20 odd years D&D has been maths heavy. I guess that leaves him playing WOD or GURPS. Nothing wrong with that.
> 
> ...



I don't see Will tattooing 4e on his arm anytime soon, but Will's the kind of gamer that 4e was built for, and that is casual game play.  A lot of people get irked by the mmo relationship, (more specifically wow) and this is such a wierd thing. Wow is the most popular game in the world becuse it was built for casual play. You can pick it up, play it and not have to worry about the detail that can often go into RPGs.  If you're making a business model for an rpg product, that is what you patern it after and I couldn't see an intelligent company like Hasbro not wanting to have their own version of this. 

D&D has traditionally been a game for a specific kind of gamer, and the only way for it to make the kind of money that makes it worth it for a company like Hasbro, is to make it accessible for the casual gamer.  It sucks, but we live in an extreme capital world where even stamp collecting has gone casual to draw in more gamers. If D&D is forever associated with the stigimitation of for intelligent nerds only, it can not be profitable for wotc.  Same thing with if console RPGs remained under the same stereotype.  However, the easy of use and coolness factor of Woww helped change that stereotype and hasbro is banking that a similiar makeover will work.  

Will's blog is very similiar to other blogs by casual gamers, and on that level Hasbro execs can smile as it worked.  

Whether you like 3.5 or 4e, you too should still be happy at 4es popularlity.  I run a jazz club.  My club is for the hardcore jazz ethusisast.  There aren't a lot of social clubs like ours out there because of our criteria for loving jazz in its purist form.  There are about 6 pop-jazz clubs in our area.  At first I hated them, they seem to attract those border line fans who don't have much intreest.  However, over the last decade I've grown to appreciate their importance to us and without them we would not be as successful as we can.  It's a symbiotic relationship. 

The lighter fan only loves certain aspects of jazz, the poppy stuf, and they get that at their clubs.  IN the mean time, these clubs are so popular and gain so much more revenue they attract people to the genre.  In the mean time, we have a good relationship with the other clubs, and attract the hardcore fans, thus helping us grow. We're no where as big, but we're more specific.  
For the hardcore fan who loves customization, you got third edition 10 years ago, and that has formed into a stable avalanche that will continue for decades seperately for Dungeons and Dragons.  It'll be that bastard stepchild that you point people too who come into your campaign from a 4e campaign.   You also got an advertising engine that will seperate the non hardcore fan (the guy who only wants combat every round) and create a more pure form of the game you like


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Dec 18, 2008)

Phaezen said:


> My guess would be Avenger?



Mine, too.


----------



## Mallus (Dec 18, 2008)

DonTadow said:


> I don't see Will tattooing 4e on his arm anytime soon, but Will's the kind of gamer that 4e was built for, and that is casual game play.



I just don't see this. My group, which is comprised of veteran RPG players, including a few inveterate worldbuilders and two bona fide 3e "system masters" like 4e quite a bit so far. 



> D&D has traditionally been a game for a specific kind of gamer...



Is this were true, why people traditionally played D&D in so many different ways? And if it's so specific, why has it always been the most popular? 



> If D&D is forever associated with the stigimitation of for intelligent nerds only, it can not be profitable for wotc.



The idea that a product can only be profitable if it targets something _other_ than its target market is, well, wrong.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Dec 18, 2008)

DonTadow said:


> I don't see Will tattooing 4e on his arm anytime soon, but Will's the kind of gamer that 4e was built for, and that is casual game play.  A lot of people get irked by the mmo relationship, (more specifically wow) and this is such a wierd thing. Wow is the most popular game in the world becuse it was built for casual play. You can pick it up, play it and not have to worry about the detail that can often go into RPGs.  If you're making a business model for an rpg product, that is what you patern it after and I couldn't see an intelligent company like Hasbro not wanting to have their own version of this.
> 
> D&D has traditionally been a game for a specific kind of gamer, and the only way for it to make the kind of money that makes it worth it for a company like Hasbro, is to make it accessible for the casual gamer.  It sucks, but we live in an extreme capital world where even stamp collecting has gone casual to draw in more gamers. If D&D is forever associated with the stigimitation of for intelligent nerds only, it can not be profitable for wotc.  Same thing with if console RPGs remained under the same stereotype.  However, the easy of use and coolness factor of Woww helped change that stereotype and hasbro is banking that a similiar makeover will work.
> 
> ...




That's an interesting thought. 

Analogies only go so far, though, and I want to add some counterpoints to it.
I think you underestimate a few aspects.
World of Warcraft might have been designed for casual play, but there are still a lot of people that play it extensively and even grow addicted to it. I think it might be casual to pick up, but there is a lot to do with the game. For me, I saw there was too much to do, and I didn't just want to spend the time for it, so I gave up after playing the Demo for an hour or so. 

Easy to learn, hard to master might be the description. D&D 4 doesn't stay simple. Maybe character creation and advancement is simpler, but the devil in the detail, during actual play. Some that wants hardcore D&D might never leave D&D 4 for another edition. He just plays it more often, gets more books, reads message boards on the optimum tactics for his character, have the DM throw exceedingly more difficulty encounters at him. Or maybe instead he rolls the dice less, and instead does more "improvised theatre" then using rules. 

People that visit those "pop" Jazz Clubs are interested in Jazz, and pick up the stuff that's easy. But they don't decide suddenly "I want my music more demanding" and listen to classical music from Mozard or Beethoven, they hear more Jazz, and visit your hardcore club, that gives them a different, possibly greater, selection of it.

But again, analogies only go so far. Is your Jazz Club the equivalent to D&D 3E? Or is it the equivalent to D&D 4E with the party fighting itself through dozens of encounters with at least two levels higher then party level? Or is the equivalent to someone trying more game systems? Or is the equivalent to someone becoming a DM instead of a player? Or is the the equivalent of a party playing in a sandbox instead of a railroad? Or is the equivalent of a guy collecting every book on his favorite game system(s)?

---

Speaking for myself, I play nearly ever week-end. Some of the guys in my group play RPGs (and not just D&D) for probably a decade longer then I do. We are pretty much "hard-core" gamers, I think. Well, I suppose you know what our edition of choice is... Suffice to say it doesn't match your expectation. Maybe we are unique in that regard. But I think few of the guys here on EN World can be described as "casual" gamers.


----------



## Phaezen (Dec 18, 2008)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Mine, too.




Unless, of course, Eladrin need 50 years to learn how to rage... 

Phaezen


----------



## falcarrion (Dec 18, 2008)

It was intresting to read what Wil wrote as I didn't know he was a gamer.
I wonder what vin diesel would think of 4e ?
I wonder if Wil and Vin have ever gamed togather?


----------



## DonTadow (Dec 18, 2008)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> That's an interesting thought.
> 
> Analogies only go so far, though, and I want to add some counterpoints to it.
> I think you underestimate a few aspects.
> ...



I in no means want to say that hardcore fans will not like 4e, there are some aspects of it that attract hardcore fans.  The same reason why we have hardcore jazz fans who love the soft stuff, because their more into strings which, admittantly, our hardcore jazz bands are good at. I'd say the hardcore band would be 3rd edition.  

As with the wow quote, i wanted to touch on that. Wow's primarily build is for the casual gamer, however, it has elements for the hardcore gamer, specifically even an expansion that is touted for the hardcore wow player (high level stuff).  But its specific focus and marketing iwill always be first and foremost the casual player.  

Regardless of how you played any of the previous editions, it has always been a nerd's game.  YOu'd have a hard time trying to convince a journalist in the 80s that you're a hack and slasher or a simiulationist.  It's all nerd to the public.  And right now it still is nerd. And nerd is not bankable. 

Yes. You have to change your target base if you are going to make a profit.  Sometimes that means alienating your first target base. I would not call us "core" as core implies that we are needed to make the product work.  Now, the goal is to change your target that it includes many of your first target base, but if it is not the primary goal.  The primary goal is to make ap roduct that attracts the many. And considerring how much of a billion dollar business mmos are, it would be crazy for a world wide traded company not to figure out how to get a piece of that niche. 

Take a look at square soft's final fantasy series of games.  Games 1 to 6 were traditional j-rpgs, a lot of reading, a lot of puzzles, a lot of characters, still a great plot.  But Final Fantasy was just not popular outside of RPG circles.  Square saw this as a potential problem and began to change the apperance and marketing of the game.  They added more cut scenes, a bit more scifi elements and limited the characters and created a new dyanamic and marketable game.  I remember how different it was when final fantasy 7 came out, about how "cool", it was now to play final fantasy games.  Heck, it can make (final fantasys ps2) or break (no final fantasy ps3) a system.  

That's the kind of rep change for d&d that needs to change.  4e needs to be the final fantasy, the WOW, the Pokemon of gaming.  Without final fantasy, the Shin Megasami games won't get made, without WOW the Eve's can't strive, without Pokemon there's not a feeder system for Magic and without 4e the more complicated and direct sequel systems to 3.5 won't survive.


----------



## Fifth Element (Dec 18, 2008)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Well, I think an opposite only makes sense if you have a certain "spectrum". This spectrum can be binary, but doesn't have to be. The things in between are not opposites to the extremes of the spectrum.



This is true. But the implication of justanobody's post seemed to be "if you're not a fanboy, you must be a hater."


----------



## Wisdom Penalty (Dec 18, 2008)

Good article. Thanks for the link. 

My group is about as hard core (read: addicted and nerdy) as you can get when it comes to D&D, so we don't fit the casual gamer archetype (of which Wil seems to be a member). We _do_ agree with him, however, that 4e is tons o' fun. We also agree - at least, those of us who know what a 3PP is (read: me and one other guy) - that WotC dropped the ball when it comes to this issue.

I should note that I'm in another group that is more casual, and - ironically - that group has more issues with 4e (of course, they had many issues with 3e as well). The apparent necessity of sound tactics in 4e, as opposed to amazing single-shot booms from 3e, has created some trepidation amongst the players who find themselves compelled to pay more attention to the tactical situation than they have in the past. 

I think this is a good thing, but they dislike the effect it's had on their ability to drink beer and B.S. without their characters biting the farm.

WP


----------



## jaerdaph (Dec 18, 2008)

Wesley Crusher said:
			
		

> ...just reminds me of watching two guys with ponytails argue about which Linux distribution is better while they ignore the stripper grinding on the rail right next to them.




That's what I've been saying all along!


----------



## Mathew_Freeman (Dec 18, 2008)

DonTadow said:


> Regardless of how you played any of the previous editions, it has always been a nerd's game.  YOu'd have a hard time trying to convince a journalist in the 80s that you're a hack and slasher or a simiulationist.  It's all nerd to the public.  And right now it still is nerd. And nerd is not bankable.




I would dispute that nerd is not bankable, given the recent success of films like the Dark Knight, Cloverfield, and the pre-hype and excitement being generated by Watchmen and Star Trek.

I think nerds are VERY bankable.


----------



## Lacyon (Dec 18, 2008)

Wulf Ratbane said:


> ANY time I get to play Dungeons and Dragons for 10 hours straight, it's the best thing ever. Any edition.




Amen to that.



Tallarn said:


> I think nerds are VERY bankable.




Indeed. When I was 10, being "nerdy" got me teased mercilessly (when it wasn't getting me beat up).

By the time I turned 15, being "nerdy" was starting to earn (sometimes grudging) respect.

Cultures change.


----------



## ExploderWizard (Dec 18, 2008)

Monkey Boy said:


> I agree with you that Wil is a gamer. I just don't see him talking about all the D&D he played except when he was a teenager. He admits to swapping his maths heavy 1e books and suggests an aversion to maths heavy games. For the last 20 odd years D&D has been maths heavy. I guess that leaves him playing WOD or GURPS. Nothing wrong with that.




Whoa!!  GURPS is math lite?


----------



## Dinkeldog (Dec 18, 2008)

Wulf Ratbane said:


> Same here. I love most of 4e's design _concepts_. I just want them without all the unsavory parts of 4e.




I would've figured by now you would have done a stellar re-write including the stuff you like, expanding what is still light (like the craft skill re-write), and adding in new stuff to make things a bit grittier to suit.  But when you do, you won't forget to send a copy of the result to your old buddy, right?


----------



## kenmarable (Dec 18, 2008)

Tallarn said:


> I would dispute that nerd is not bankable, given the recent success of films like the Dark Knight, Cloverfield, and the pre-hype and excitement being generated by Watchmen and Star Trek.
> 
> I think nerds are VERY bankable.



Yep, and I think that's largely because the nerds have grown up and are taking over.

As stated on a poster at the local Jimmy John's (just got back form there in fact - yum!): "Be nice to nerds - you will probably wind up working for one."


----------



## DonTadow (Dec 18, 2008)

Tallarn said:


> I would dispute that nerd is not bankable, given the recent success of films like the Dark Knight, Cloverfield, and the pre-hype and excitement being generated by Watchmen and Star Trek.
> 
> I think nerds are VERY bankable.



But you've proven my point.  Dark Knight is not your traditional batman film, as it's marketed as a crime thriller and was toted as a movie that is a "realistic" comic book. Batman has not been nerd forsome time. Cloverfield, not nerd, Watchmen a classic graphic novel (again marketed to seperate itself as a standout) and as star trek has gotten the makeover I told you about to denerdify it. Hot characters, popular director (who makes hip scifi), and a revamp of updated tech.  

That's also not to say that putting a lot of money behind something and throwing out of the nerd realm and into pop culture doesn't help. (LOTR)

REst assured, nerd is still not bankable.  Take scifi shows on regular and cable tv.  A show, like alost or heroes, has to make steps to denerd it, and put it in normal worlds so that its not so nerdy. The minute it takes a nerdy turn, the ratins start to tumble


----------



## Mallus (Dec 18, 2008)

DonTadow said:


> But you've proven my point.  Dark Knight is not your traditional batman film, as it's marketed as a crime thriller and was toted as a movie that is a "realistic" comic book.



The Dark Knight isn't your traditional, read, conventional, Hollywood crime drama, either. It's a $180,000,000 trip into extreme paranoia and not-quite-graphic sadism. It's the first comic-book film about existential terror, with a principle character --ie, The Joker-- that isn't just a terrorist, he's an embodiment of terrorism itself --heh, he should have been named The Synecdoche. 

It's hard for me to see The Dark Knight as a conventional mainstream blockbuster. It's something of a puzzlement. 



> Batman has not been nerd for some time.



Nerdery has been becoming mainstream for some time. 



> Cloverfield, not nerd...



Kaiju is always nerd (even when of the shaky-cam variety).



> REst assured, nerd is still not bankable.



Sure it is, because the line between nerd and mainstream is blurring, as has been for a long time.


----------



## Wulf Ratbane (Dec 18, 2008)

Dinkeldog said:


> I would've figured by now you would have done a stellar re-write including the stuff you like, expanding what is still light (like the craft skill re-write), and adding in new stuff to make things a bit grittier to suit.  But when you do, you won't forget to send a copy of the result to your old buddy, right?




I'm still in playtest.


----------



## dmccoy1693 (Dec 18, 2008)

falcarrion said:


> I wonder what vin diesel would think of 4e ?
> I wonder if Wil and Vin have ever gamed togather?




I'm wondering about Colbert. I'd love to sit at a table with Steve, Vin and Will even more then Rouse, Noonan, and Williams (granted, I would love to sit at that table too).


----------



## Darkwolf71 (Dec 18, 2008)

dmccoy1693 said:


> I'm wondering about Colbert. I'd love to sit at a table with Steve, Vin and Will even more then Rouse, Noonan, and Williams (granted, I would love to sit at that table too).



If D&D is the topic of conversation, I'd rather have a sit down with the later group. The people who are actually involved with the game.

Sure, I'd love to hang out with Vin, chat with Colbert or... well I honestly don't care either way for Wil Weaton, but these are guys who _used to play the game_ or at best dabble with it a bit in what little spare time they have. They have zero to do with game design and really have no more authority on the subject than I or any number of geeks I can talk to at my FLGS. Hell, I could list a lot of ENWorld posters that I'd rather meet and discuss RPGs with than these guys.

We, as a culture, give far too much weight to 'celebrities' opinions simply because they are famous.


...
Erm.

[/rant], sorry about that.


----------



## darjr (Dec 18, 2008)

dmccoy1693 said:


> I'm wondering about Colbert. I'd love to sit at a table with Steve, Vin and Will even more then Rouse, Noonan, and Williams (granted, I would love to sit at that table too).




Six players and a DM? Game with all of them. What the heck.


----------



## Dire Bare (Dec 18, 2008)

Darkwolf71 said:


> Sure, I'd love to hang out with Vin, chat with Colbert or... well I honestly don't care either way for Wil Weaton, but these are guys who _used to play the game_ or at best dabble with it a bit in what little spare time they have. They have zero to do with game design and really have no more authority on the subject than I or any number of geeks I can talk to at my FLGS. Hell, I could list a lot of ENWorld posters that I'd rather meet and discuss RPGs with than these guys.



I don't think anybody here is claiming that Wheaton, Colbert, or Diesel have any unique game design perspectives to share.  They might, they might not, but that's not the point.  Any one of them, or better yet all three of them, would be a blast to play D&D with.  Because they are cool, creative, interesting people in their own rights who happen to be gamer geeks.

I give more weight to Wheaton's impressions of the game because I am familiar with his writing (both blog and books) and I know he is me.  A more articulate and talented person than I, but with many shared life experiences and geeky pasttimes.  I know Wil's a smart guy, a bonafide geek, an excellent writer, and that I would probably enjoy a lot of the things that he does.  It's not simply because he is a celebrity (a very minor one, at that), but because he is a writer whose work is out there for me to discover and identify with.

And Colbert . . . I'd sell my mother to sit on on a gaming session with Colbert.  That man is comic insane genius and gaming with him would be an experience, that's for sure.

Eh, not so much Vin Diesel.  I'm sure he's a cool guy and all, but . . . eh, the idea doesn't get me excited.


----------



## dragonlordofpoondari (Dec 18, 2008)

DonTadow said:


> Whether you like 3.5 or 4e, you too should still be happy at 4es popularlity.  I run a jazz club.  My club is for the hardcore jazz enthusiast.  There aren't a lot of social clubs like ours out there because of our criteria for loving jazz in its purist form.  There are about 6 pop-jazz clubs in our area.




That's so cool. I had no idea about this, DonTadow! Hey it broke my heart when Rusty sold her club in Maumee/Toledo about 5 years ago. I spent as much time there as I did playing D&D. THAT was an amazing little jazz club, especially if you were a regular. What's the name of your club? Do any of the old retinue show up or play at your club?

How I miss Bobby Few, Larry Fuller, Eric Dickey, Ramona Collins, Mark Kieswetter, Bill Meyer, Leon and Damon Cook, and of course Bobby's house band.

I live in San Diego now, but I still have some family in the area who are jazz lovers. Man, those were the days. /derail


----------



## Festivus (Dec 18, 2008)

Thank you for posting.  I would have missed Wil's aritcle totally had you not done so.  Very enjoyable article, pretty much summed up my feelings on 4E before it came out as well... a game I have really come to enjoy from the DM side of the table way more than 3.5.  As a player of both, I find them equally enjoyable, but then I was never one for every 3.5 splat book and multiclass known to mankind.


----------



## Darkwolf71 (Dec 18, 2008)

Dire Bare said:


> I don't think anybody here is claiming that Wheaton, Colbert, or Diesel have any unique game design perspectives to share.  They might, they might not, but that's not the point.  Any one of them, or better yet all three of them, would be a blast to play D&D with.  Because they are cool, creative, interesting people in their own rights who happen to be gamer geeks.




Well, seeing as how this thread is about Weaton's review, I figured we were talking about a discussion rather than game time. Sure, I'd enjoy playing with the guys, but then I'd play with just about anyone.

And having read the article now, he did a good job. I still have issue with some of his implications about '4e haters', but whatever. (I also find it amusing that he thinks '4d6 drop the lowest' is old school. )


----------



## jonrog1 (Dec 19, 2008)

Wulf Ratbane said:


> Same here. I love most of 4e's design _concepts_. I just want them without all the unsavory parts of 4e.




See, here's the interesting bit -- and frustrating bit about the new GSL.  Even as a playtester and occasional contributor, I think the framework/design under 4E is better and more useful than 4E wound up being overall.  It's a filthily smooth, beautiful little engine under there.

Not hacking on 4e -- I just built four variants on a character to try them out, all inside five minutes each, and it DM's like a dream.  But the clarified conditions, cover/concealment, skills, feats, static defenses ... staple in a bit of the better ides from SAGA (which is bloody amazing) and it's damn close to the perfect omni-system in my book.

Now just to convince them to get rid of hit points ...


----------



## TarionzCousin (Dec 19, 2008)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> I am actually considering picking up one of his books now, just to figure out what he's talking about. Of course, the fact that he was Wesley Crusher is one of the reasons why I am considering it now, too. (I didn't mind Wesley! Why was I the only one?  )



He's a good writer. I would recommend his books.




			
				Wil Wheaton said:
			
		

> Also, the monsters are calling from inside the castle!



Great article. Thanks, nobody, for the snarky original post and link!


----------



## vic20 (Dec 19, 2008)

Darkwolf71 said:


> I also find it amusing that he thinks '4d6 drop the lowest' is old school.




That's how I did it in 1979.


----------



## Obryn (Dec 19, 2008)

Darkwolf71 said:


> And having read the article now, he did a good job. I still have issue with some of his implications about '4e haters', but whatever. (I also find it amusing that he thinks '4d6 drop the lowest' is old school. )



Unless you're Diaglo, I think the 1e DMG counts as oldschool. 

-O


----------



## jdrakeh (Dec 19, 2008)

ExploderWizard said:


> Whoa!!  GURPS is math lite?




He has obviously never read GURPS Vehicles


----------



## Mathew_Freeman (Dec 19, 2008)

DonTadow said:


> But you've proven my point.  Dark Knight is not your traditional batman film, as it's marketed as a crime thriller and was toted as a movie that is a "realistic" comic book. Batman has not been nerd forsome time. Cloverfield, not nerd, Watchmen a classic graphic novel (again marketed to seperate itself as a standout) and as star trek has gotten the makeover I told you about to denerdify it. Hot characters, popular director (who makes hip scifi), and a revamp of updated tech.
> 
> That's also not to say that putting a lot of money behind something and throwing out of the nerd realm and into pop culture doesn't help. (LOTR)
> 
> REst assured, nerd is still not bankable.  Take scifi shows on regular and cable tv.  A show, like alost or heroes, has to make steps to denerd it, and put it in normal worlds so that its not so nerdy. The minute it takes a nerdy turn, the ratings start to tumble




We're obviously going to disagree on this as we're coming at it from opposite directions.

I say that nerd is becoming bankable because it's hit the mainstream, and from what I can see you're holding the opinion that if it's become mainstream (or sucessful) then it's because it wasn't really nerdy. *shrug*

I maintain that 'nerd' is a label that's becoming less relevant. Being smart is becoming more important in society, and the people doing the creative work are more increasingly 'nerdy' (although I prefer "geek" as a term, personally) in film, certainly. As such, I suppose we're both right!


----------



## Darkwolf71 (Dec 19, 2008)

vic20 said:


> That's how I did it in 1979.




Hm, We didn't play that way until well into 2e, early/mid 90's. Actually that wasn't even my old group. It was a bunch of my shipmates when I was in the Navy.


----------



## WayneLigon (Dec 19, 2008)

Darkwolf71 said:


> They have zero to do with game design and really have no more authority on the subject than I or any number of geeks I can talk to at my FLGS. Hell, I could list a lot of ENWorld posters that I'd rather meet and discuss RPGs with than these guys.




However, Wil's blog does something a lot more important than discuss the minutia of game design: he presents a positive image of D&D to more people than any ten sites that argue about why changing the green dragon's picture is tantamount to a federal offense.


----------



## Darkwolf71 (Dec 19, 2008)

WayneLigon said:


> However, Wil's blog does something a lot more important than discuss the minutia of game design: he presents a positive image of D&D to more people than any ten sites that argue about why changing the green dragon's picture is tantamount to a federal offense.



As I said;


Darkwolf71 said:


> And having read the article now, he did a good job.



Good article.


----------



## silentounce (Dec 19, 2008)

Darkwolf71 said:


> Hm, We didn't play that way until well into 2e, early/mid 90's. Actually that wasn't even my old group. It was a bunch of my shipmates when I was in the Navy.




Well, it was listed as a method in the 1e DMG.  It may have been Method I, but I'm not sure.  Most players don't realize this because, well, they're players, and the die rolling methods were listed in the DMG at that time if I recall.


----------



## Darkwolf71 (Dec 19, 2008)

silentounce said:


> Well, it was listed as a method in the 1e DMG.  It may have been Method I, but I'm not sure.  Most players don't realize this because, well, they're players, and the die rolling methods were listed in the DMG at that time if I recall.



I read the DMG backwards and forwards actually, and at the time could have recited to you all the ways to roll stats and then tell you why we didn't use them. It's just not an option we used so with the passage of time I (incorrectly, I get it. ) associate it with later versions of the game.


----------



## Pbartender (Dec 19, 2008)

For an interesting read:  An Overview of Ability Score Generation Methods for Characters

It goes through all the official methods of ability scores generation and compares them, then goes through some alternate methods and variations from other sources.


----------



## Dire Bare (Dec 19, 2008)

Darkwolf71 said:


> Well, seeing as how this thread is about Weaton's review, I figured we were talking about a discussion rather than game time. Sure, I'd enjoy playing with the guys, but then I'd play with just about anyone.



Do I have to be a chef to write a good review of a restaurant?  Do I have to be a film director to write a good review of a movie?  Do I have to be a game designer to write a good review of a game?

I trust Wil's reviews because his prior writing has given me the impression that Wil is a person whose interests, likes, and dislikes align closely with mine.  I'm sure that's not true for everyone, but it is true for many of us.

I've read some reviews in the past of game systems by game designers, and while sometimes interesting, didn't quite give me the perspective I wanted on the game system in question.  The perspective of a player.


----------



## Darkwolf71 (Dec 19, 2008)

Dire Bare said:


> Do I have to be a chef to write a good review of a restaurant?  Do I have to be a film director to write a good review of a movie?  Do I have to be a game designer to write a good review of a game?



Do you have to be a jerk to come off sounding like one?



> I trust Wil's reviews because his prior writing has given me the impression that Wil is a person whose interests, likes, and dislikes align closely with mine.  I'm sure that's not true for everyone, but it is true for many of us.
> 
> I've read some reviews in the past of game systems by game designers, and while sometimes interesting, didn't quite give me the perspective I wanted on the game system in question.  The perspective of a player.



As I said already.


Darkwolf71 said:


> And having read the article now, he did a good job.



Read the whole thread before you jump on someone, I already gave the man credit for his article. I'm not convinced it is a good review, but it is a good article. He's a good writer.


----------



## dragonlordofpoondari (Dec 19, 2008)

Let's everybody chillax so we can keep this nice thread open, eh?

I have a man-crush on Will Wheaton. A Wesley Crush ... er. 

Sorry about that. I respect and admire Will and his opinion and am grateful for the insight. I still wouldn't DM it in it's current incarnation, but I'm quite curious to play a few sessions.


----------



## Dire Bare (Dec 19, 2008)

Darkwolf71 said:


> Do you have to be a jerk to come off sounding like one?



Whoah.  I read the entire thread, before posting.  I read all of your posts, including the ones responding to mine.  Caught the part where you read the article and liked it.  Just simply trying to further explain my own point of view, with no intention of mocking your own point of view.  Just continuing the discussion on why this review, and others like it, are valuable to me.

I'd apologize for coming off like a jerk, but after reviewing my posts, I don't think that I did.


----------



## Wormwood (Dec 20, 2008)

Great article.

Wil summarizes my feelings about 4e damn near _perfectly_.


----------



## Angel Tarragon (Dec 20, 2008)

vic20 said:


> That's how I did it in 1979.




Heck, thats how I did it in '91, when I was introduced to 1E.


----------



## Wisdom Penalty (Dec 20, 2008)

Dire Bare said:
			
		

> I'd apologize for coming off like a jerk, but after reviewing my posts, I don't think that I did.




You didn't. Someone else certainly did. Um...Darkwolf, anyone?

Yeah.

WP


----------



## carmachu (Dec 20, 2008)

Not to be rude or anything, but why should I care whether wil wheaton likes or doesnt like 4e?


----------



## Gravedust (Dec 20, 2008)

TarionzCousin said:


> He's a good writer. I would recommend his books.




I would too, I just finished reading The Happiest Days of Our Lives, and it was a fun read. I grew up just past the start of Star Wars/OD&D era (was more He-man and Transformers), but it was like reading letters from someone you grew up with. Good book.


----------



## Vael (Dec 20, 2008)

I feel old. Wesley Crusher has kids.

I'm looking forward to the podcasts, I thought the last Penny Arcade set was hilarious. Looking forward to the return of Jim Darkmagic.


----------



## Darkwolf71 (Dec 20, 2008)

Wisdom Penalty said:


> You didn't. Someone else certainly did. Um...Darkwolf, anyone?
> 
> Yeah.
> 
> WP




You're right, I did. I was going to come back and edit that, but my father came into town a day early and threw everything out of whack for me.

Dire Bare may or may not have been jerkish, but I certainly felt a (probably unintentional) snide-ness. Eye of the beholder and all that.

Anyway, I've had my say, and I've been grilled quite enough for it. I'll bail and let y'all drool over Wil's Masterful Review of Glowing Splendor.


----------



## Wisdom Penalty (Dec 20, 2008)

carmachu said:
			
		

> Not to be rude or anything, but why should I care whether wil wheaton likes or doesnt like 4e?




Short answer: You shouldn't. But you knew this. 

Longer answer:

(a) You like his style of writing,
(b) You respect his opinion,
(c) You tend to agree with his outlook based on past experience,
(d) You were unsure whether to purchase 4e and suspect his review may be of value for you.

Pretty simple, really.

WP


----------



## pawsplay (Dec 20, 2008)

I feel left out and rejected. Even Ensign Crusher likes 4e.  Time to go eat some ice cream and cry myself to sleep.


----------



## Pramas (Dec 20, 2008)

pawsplay said:


> I feel left out and rejected. Even Ensign Crusher likes 4e.  Time to go eat some ice cream and cry myself to sleep.




If it helps, he's also a big fan of True20.


----------



## Jeff Wilder (Dec 20, 2008)

Tallarn said:


> I maintain that 'nerd' is a label that's becoming less relevant. Being smart is becoming more important in society, and the people doing the creative work are more increasingly 'nerdy' (although I prefer "geek" as a term, personally) in film, certainly. As such, I suppose we're both right!



The reason you prefer "geek" to "nerd" is that "geek" _has_ been moving increasingly into the mainstream, whereas "nerd" still holds heavy negative connotations.  People like us will admit more or less proudly to being geeks, but usually take some exception if called nerds, except with acceptable irony or in self-deprecation.

It probably differs from region to region, but I think the difference can be summed up by saying "geeks are high-functioning nerds."  The difference is almost one of caricature (e.g., Comic Book Guy from "The Simpsons"), but nerds _do_ exist in reality.  They just rarely make it into the public spotlight.  (Bill Gates is one huge exception.  And yes, I've met him. Believe me, he's a nerd.  Surprisingly nice guy, and surprisingly good low-limit hold'em player, but definitely a nerd.)

I agree with you that _geek_ is highly bankable, but I agree with the other poster that _nerd_ is not.

BTW, I enjoyed Wil's blog entry, but I came away with the impression that Wil would have raved just as strongly if he'd played 3.5 or the mythical 4E that might have been.


----------



## Fifth Element (Dec 20, 2008)

carmachu said:


> Not to be rude or anything, but why should I care whether wil wheaton likes or doesnt like 4e?



One could ask the same thing about anyone's review of anything, anywhere.


----------



## Wisdom Penalty (Dec 20, 2008)

Jeff Wilder said:
			
		

> BTW, I enjoyed Wil's blog entry, but I came away with the impression that Wil would have raved just as strongly if he'd played 3.5 or the mythical 4E that might have been.




Concur.

I bet the same could be said even of PF, as Wil and Mr. Mona seem to have (or have had) a good relationship from back in the day when Wil wrote a monthly editorial in the great non-electronic _Dungeon_.


----------



## darjr (Dec 20, 2008)

Jeff Wilder said:


> BTW, I enjoyed Wil's blog entry, but I came away with the impression that Wil would have raved just as strongly if he'd played 3.5 or the mythical 4E that might have been.




I also liked his blog entry, but I don't think that 3.5 or pathfinder would have been quite the same. After all he was a little worried about the new edition. The review is lots about the relief from anxiety over the new edition, relief turned into joy. Also he really dug the DMG like no other. I presume he has read the 3.5 DMG and maybe even the Pathfinder beta.

Though I do agree, most of the raving has to do with WHO he gamed with and under what circumstances. Sneak preview and all that.


----------



## justanobody (Dec 20, 2008)

Fifth Element said:


> One could ask the same thing about anyone's review of anything, anywhere.




Exactly! It is why I laugh at all reviews and judge things for myself.


----------



## Wisdom Penalty (Dec 21, 2008)

justanobody said:
			
		

> Exactly! It is why I laugh at all reviews and judge things for myself.




And yet, you started this thread. The irony.


----------



## Mouseferatu (Dec 21, 2008)

Wisdom Penalty said:


> And yet, you started this thread. The irony.




"Irony" is a far kinder term than I'd have used...


----------



## Kishin (Dec 21, 2008)

Wisdom Penalty said:


> And yet, you started this thread. The irony.




Every discussion of any review anywhere requires someone to inevitably bring up how not reading reviews makes them a unique snowflake. Don't blame the man for doing his part.


----------



## justanobody (Dec 21, 2008)

Wisdom Penalty said:


> And yet, you started this thread. The irony.






> EN World D&D / *RPG News* > General RPG Forums > General RPG Discussion




Interesting that bolded part.


----------



## darjr (Dec 21, 2008)

erg... sorry... nevermind.


----------



## AllisterH (Dec 21, 2008)

jdrakeh said:


> He has obviously never read GURPS Vehicles




Maybe he was comparing it to CORPS?


----------



## Brennin Magalus (Dec 21, 2008)

I don't care for what I've seen of Whil Wheaton's opinions on any topic. Also, I find his gratuitous geek references off-putting.


----------



## Kzach (Dec 21, 2008)

Leatherhead said:


> I am constantly amazed by the number of people who try to argue or refute the idea that WoW is like 4E, while not having played one and/or the other.




And I am constantly amazed by the number of people that claim the two are alike, being a DM of a weekly 4e game and having two 80th-level toons.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Dec 21, 2008)

Kzach said:


> And I am constantly amazed by the number of people that claim the two are alike, being a DM of a weekly 4e game and having two 80th-level toons.




I am just constantly amazed...


----------



## Jack99 (Dec 21, 2008)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> I am just constantly amazed...




WoW is easy, do not be amazed. Getting a few 80's can be done in very little (relatively) time.


----------



## delericho (Dec 21, 2008)

darjr said:


> Also he really dug the DMG like no other. I presume he has read the 3.5 DMG and maybe even the Pathfinder beta.




The 4e DMG certainly does read a lot better than the 3e equivalents (and includes a lot of 'group management' advice that is notably missing from the 3e DMG 1, but present in DMG2). It is fair to say that the 3e DMG had something of the feel of a textbook about it.

That said, I do feel the 3e DMG is considerably more _useful_ than the 4e equivalent. The 4e book seemed awfully good on generalities, but woefully short on specifics, where the 3e book excelled.

Indeed, I'm pretty sure the 4e DMG would end up seeing very little actual use - page 42 is of great value, but beyond that I can't see using much other than the Skill Challenges stuff... which doesn't really work as written. Indeed, the 4e DMG might see less use even than the very poor 2nd Edition DMG. At least that version included magic items.


----------



## Ravellion (Dec 22, 2008)

delericho said:


> Indeed, the 4e DMG might see less use even than the very poor 2nd Edition DMG. At least that version included magic items.



Well, there is the toolbox. Templating monsters, adding hit points, that kind of thing. Only roughly 20 pages, yes, but still very good (especially that it only takes 20 pages, come to think of it).


----------



## Fifth Element (Dec 22, 2008)

justanobody said:


> Interesting that bolded part.



So you find it laughable, but consider it newsworthy? Not sure I follow.


----------



## Shroomy (Dec 22, 2008)

delericho said:


> The 4e DMG certainly does read a lot better than the 3e equivalents (and includes a lot of 'group management' advice that is notably missing from the 3e DMG 1, but present in DMG2). It is fair to say that the 3e DMG had something of the feel of a textbook about it.
> 
> That said, I do feel the 3e DMG is considerably more _useful_ than the 4e equivalent. The 4e book seemed awfully good on generalities, but woefully short on specifics, where the 3e book excelled.
> 
> Indeed, I'm pretty sure the 4e DMG would end up seeing very little actual use - page 42 is of great value, but beyond that I can't see using much other than the Skill Challenges stuff... which doesn't really work as written. Indeed, the 4e DMG might see less use even than the very poor 2nd Edition DMG. At least that version included magic items.




In addition to the toolbox chapter and page 42 chart already mentioned (which I constantly refer to) there's the traps, skill challenges, additional rules (disease, poison, mounted combat, etc.), treasure parcels, encounter templates, XP tables, sample artifacts, sample terrain, etc.  There's plenty of important information to refer to in the 4e DMG other than the DMing advice.


----------



## delericho (Dec 22, 2008)

Ravellion said:


> Well, there is the toolbox.






Shroomy said:


> In addition to the toolbox chapter and page 42 chart already mentioned (which I constantly refer to) there's the traps, skill challenges, additional rules (disease, poison, mounted combat, etc.), treasure parcels, encounter templates, XP tables, sample artifacts, sample terrain,




You're right, I failed to remember these while making my assessment. I do find many of these sections quite lacking (skill challenges don't work well as-written; there are very few sample traps, and no system for developing new ones; I find 'treasure parcels' useful only as a supplement to proper treasure tables; and the environmental hazards section still talks only in generalities, without specifics).

However, my assessment of the 4e DMG vs the 2nd is incorrect - the 4e DMG is clearly the superior work. My 3e vs 4e assessment remains the same, though - the 4e book is better written, and better for learning to DM, but the 3e book is much more useful after that point.


----------



## DonTadow (Dec 23, 2008)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> I am just constantly amazed...



The comparsions come from the casual game play aspect, you're obviously a hard core, but if i tried, i can probably get to 80 sometime in the next two months, i just choose to only play every other week or so, so for me its something i pick up play.  The adventures are pretty generic for everyone and its n't like i need a lot of thinking to figure out how to kill a certain mob.  Things are straight forward and limited. 

4e felt very pick up and play, the structure of the characters were very simple, the adventures felt very hack and slash style, if there was not a role for it it was not a rule and something the dm had to fiat.  If I spent a lot of time with it, I didn't feel like there was a lot different I could do unless I started making up stuff, and at that point I'm just incorporating previous editions into it.  

If I wanted to, i could probably figure out how to play 4e hardcore, but at that point I'm mimicking 3.5 so much that why don't i just play 3.5.  The difference for me is more like comparing a crpg with a console rpg.  The keyboard allows me to do more stuff, and if its other stuff i like I'd like the crpg. But if i wanted something that was straight forward and easier to play, I'd play the console rpgs because I'm only looking at 5 buttons.  

Play wise one is superior to the other only depending on your preference.  

4e strongly supports a hack and slash playstyle more so than the simulation playstyle that some like.  I don't think 3.5 supported the hack and slash style very well because of its complexity and rules.


----------



## Kishin (Dec 23, 2008)

Jack99 said:


> WoW is easy, do not be amazed. Getting a few 80's can be done in very little (relatively) time.




Agreed.

WoW is ludicrously easy if you are even moderately competent, which most D&D players/gamers would be almost by default. A friend from my old guild IMed me the other day to inform me that it had taken them 3 weeks from the release of the new expansion to get to 80 and clear all presently available raid content.

XP gains have been bumped, there are add ons that will calculate the most efficient route from questgiver to questgiver in any area....


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Dec 24, 2008)

Jack99 said:


> WoW is easy, do not be amazed. Getting a few 80's can be done in very little (relatively) time.






DonTadow said:


> The comparsions come from the casual game play aspect, you're obviously a hard core, but if i tried, i can probably get to 80 sometime in the next two months, i just choose to only play every other week or so, so for me its something i pick up play.  The adventures are pretty generic for everyone and its n't like i need a lot of thinking to figure out how to kill a certain mob.  Things are straight forward and limited.
> 
> 4e felt very pick up and play, the structure of the characters were very simple, the adventures felt very hack and slash style, if there was not a role for it it was not a rule and something the dm had to fiat.  If I spent a lot of time with it, I didn't feel like there was a lot different I could do unless I started making up stuff, and at that point I'm just incorporating previous editions into it.
> 
> ...




I am afraid you are misunderstanding me. I am just continually amazed, that's it!  You don't have to explain to me how easy WoW is or isn't!


----------



## Amphimir Míriel (Dec 24, 2008)

dmccoy1693 said:


> I'm wondering about Colbert. I'd love to sit at a table with Steve, Vin and Will even more then Rouse, Noonan, and Williams (granted, I would love to sit at that table too).




I read that Robin Williams was a gamer too... I'd love to be a player with him as DM (listening to him speak like a barmaid, dwarf warrior, elf wizard, and troll in quick succession must be a blast!)


----------



## Herschel (Dec 24, 2008)

Jack99 said:


> I could have written that article.




But who would care? 

Well, actually I would. I value your insight just as much as his on the game.


----------



## Mr. Wilson (Dec 26, 2008)

Does anyone know if this article is linked elsewhere on the web?  I suppose I could google it myself, but seeing as I work for Big Brother, going to Suicide Girls at work is out of the question.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Dec 26, 2008)

Yet another question - am I confusing things or shouldn't there also be a podcast of the session? If it exists, where can it be found? The DDI game session podcasts where a lot of fun...


----------



## SlyFlourish (Dec 26, 2008)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Yet another question - am I confusing things or shouldn't there also be a podcast of the session? If it exists, where can it be found? The DDI game session podcasts where a lot of fun...




It's coming in January.


----------

