# GC 2006 - Ptolus Hardback $120!?!



## Kvantum (Aug 24, 2005)

According to the GamingReport coverage of the Malhavoc GenCon seminars at http://www.gamingreport.com/article.php?sid=18356&mode=thread&order=0, next year's release of the Ptolus campaign setting hardback is going to retail for $120 US! Has the success finally gone to Monte's head? Is gamingreport wrong on this one? Can anyone else confirm or deny that price point? I mean, it sounds like a very awesome book, but 120 dollars? Kee-ripes that's nuts!


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## Nifft (Aug 24, 2005)

For that much he darn well better come over and DM once a month.

 -- N


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## Angel Tarragon (Aug 24, 2005)

I paid $100 for A Game of Thrones Deluxe Limited Edition, so yeah, I'd drop $120 on Ptolus.


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## Staffan (Aug 24, 2005)

It seems there's a general trend among publishers to test the limits of what people are willing to pay for big, high-end gaming stuff. People were apparently willing to pay $100 for the World's Largest Dungeon, so now Monte is testing the limits with $120 for a setting/city/adventure.

OK, I know not everyone who bought the WLD paid $100 for it (thanks to Amazon discounts etc.), but those discounts ought to be available for Ptolus as well.


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## Infernal Teddy (Aug 24, 2005)

There is no **** way I am gonna buy anything that expensive!


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## Sunderstone (Aug 24, 2005)

Wow....thats definately way too much. Monte can keep my copy (though I wasnt going to buy one anyway). If this is true, then Im done with Malhavoc entirely.


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## philreed (Aug 24, 2005)

Sure, $120 sounds like a lot. But what's included in that cost?



			
				Gamingreport said:
			
		

> This is going to be a huge book with six to seven hundred pages, not counting poster map, twenty-four handout pages, and a CD with four pages of content not in the book, and more. The book will also be printed in a deluxe format with a fully embossed cover, some 300 pieces of art, built in ribbon bookmarks, and full color art.




It sounds to me like this is an ultra-deluxe project that's loaded with bells and whistles. I'd say look at it, watch reviews, and watch for previews before deciding (about a year before release) that you won't buy it.


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## Sammael (Aug 24, 2005)

I can say right now that I have no intention of buying it, regardless of contents. I can buy five WotC books from Amazon for that kind of money, and I have very little interest in Ptolus to boot. But it appears that Monte has enough fans who buy everything he publishes regardless of contents or quality, so I doubt he'll have trouble selling it.


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## Reynard (Aug 24, 2005)

To everyone outraged: relax.  You don't hate McDonalds because they sell a Chicken Delux Whatever for twice what you pay for a normal chicken sandwich do you?  A high end product isn't a secret plot to screw you out of your money, it is a high end product.  Quite frankly, I think the game industry could use more of them.  People spend a hell of a lot more and far less useful things in other hobbies, that's for sure.


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## Hand of Evil (Aug 24, 2005)

We are talking about a specialty item here, to be sold at a specal event GENCON and more than likely just on-line, this will not be mass market by any means, so yes $120 is a fair price.  Monte has craved out a nice niche for himself in a niche market and while he is a recognizable industry name, he has constantly delivered great product worth the price.


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## Herremann the Wise (Aug 24, 2005)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> I paid $100 for A Game of Thrones Deluxe Limited Edition, so yeah, I'd drop $120 on Ptolus.




Ditto, (except I had to cough up $200 Australian for the Game of Thrones book).

This one sounds like it's going to be something special too. While I can understand the frustration or ridicule from those who can't or don't want to afford it, let's wait and see what it's like before judging. It would not surprise me if it is the best d20 resource so far.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise


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## Buttercup (Aug 24, 2005)

philreed said:
			
		

> It sounds to me like this is an ultra-deluxe project that's loaded with bells and whistles.




Indeed.  Sounds like this is meant to be a collectible rather than to get much actual use.  So if some people really like Monte's work and have the money to spend, more power to them.


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## JoeGKushner (Aug 24, 2005)

philreed said:
			
		

> Sure, $120 sounds like a lot. But what's included in that cost?
> 
> 
> 
> It sounds to me like this is an ultra-deluxe project that's loaded with bells and whistles. I'd say look at it, watch reviews, and watch for previews before deciding (about a year before release) that you won't buy it.




It's also something that on some level, some people have been wanting as demonstred by the love for the Wilderlands boxed set which clocked in at $70.

It's like those expensive cars. They're aimed at a certain part of the audience and because they're so expensive, they don't need to see as many. Heck, I've love to complete my X-Files collection, but at $119 a crack plus tax it's gonna be many a year.


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## Numion (Aug 24, 2005)

Infernal Teddy said:
			
		

> There is no **** way I am gonna buy anything that expensive!




I can think of one way:

Get a job that pays more!!!


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## Varianor Abroad (Aug 24, 2005)

Sammael said:
			
		

> But it appears that Monte has enough fans who buy everything he publishes *especially because of* contents or quality, so I doubt he'll have trouble selling it.




Fixed it for ya. 

Seriously, this book not only looks good, it's going to _feel_ good. The cover surrounding the picture has texture to feel like the cobblestones that it depicts. This will be a deluxe piece of D20. I for one am already budgeting for it.

It's also going to be available as three pdfs. So why worry?


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## Dragonhelm (Aug 24, 2005)

I thought I had heard that Ptolus would go for $60, though I can't remember where.  It could be that the GenCon 2006 release will be a special GenCon edition, or some such (ergo the price hike).

You do have to ask at what point does a publisher call it quits in price.  My advice is to vote with your dollar and let the marketplace do what it does best.  Competition tends to keep prices down.

Also, see what exactly it is that you get for your money before you decide.  Ptolus does sound neat, but don't buy it unless you plan on using it.


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## Matrix Sorcica (Aug 24, 2005)

Uhmm... let's see.... My FLGS multiplies the dollar retail price by ten to get to a Danish kroner price including tax. So that makes it 1200 Danish kroner.
Converting back to US dollars, that's approx. $196.

Think I'll pass.


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## Sammael (Aug 24, 2005)

Varianor Abroad said:
			
		

> Fixed it for ya.



Monte's books have exceptional production quality. However, I really dislike the flavor and/or rules of nearly every book Malhavoc has published, except _Beyond Countless Doorways_. Don't get me wrong; there is nothing intrinsically wrong with the flavor, I just don't like it. I'd never run Furry... I mean Arcana Unearthed/Evolved, nor Iron Heroes. I tried allowing feats, classes, and spells from Books od X Might/Luck, and got nothing but trouble out of them. To each his own.


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## Belen (Aug 24, 2005)

Holy crapola, Batman!  I had intended to buy the book until I saw that price.  That is ridiculous!  I did not buy WLD because of the price gouging.  I am a Monte fan, but there is no way I could ever afford a book that pricey.  Heck, I had trouble with the price for Shackled City and I get a hefty discount.  My gamestore still cannot sell their other copy of Shackled City.  There is no way I could ask them to stock Monte's book.

The publishers may be pricing higher because of Amazon, but these prices are going to kill retail stores and then they loose the distributors!


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## Morte (Aug 24, 2005)

Is this the "normal" editon, or is it some luxury collectable item for GenCon with a lower priced book intended for actual use to follow a few weeks later?


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## wedgeski (Aug 24, 2005)

The book itself has 'collector's item' written all over it (well, metaphorically). I fully expect to see a huge slew of things that have never been done before, presented in new and interesting (and hopefully useful) ways, with fantastic artwork, and of exceptional mechanical quality.

$120 (probably £60-70 when it gets to the UK) is still a helluva lot of money for a single book though. I'm itching to get this product, but I'll want to see every penny of that outlay in its pages.


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## RangerWickett (Aug 24, 2005)

*Leonardo Leonardo voice* I have to have it.


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## Varianor Abroad (Aug 24, 2005)

Sammael said:
			
		

> Don't get me wrong; there is nothing intrinsically wrong with the flavor, I just don't like it. I'd never run Furry... I mean Arcana Unearthed/Evolved....




Yet you feel compelled to constantly take these little slams and digs? Me personally I am not a Furry fan, but you've gone off and tried to slam both Malhavoc and those who like the Furry thing. <shrug> I hope you can find something that makes you happy. 

Anyway, regarding the price, I thought Monte said at the seminar that it wasn't determined yet? A lot of the seminar material will be on his website this Thursday.


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## JoeBlank (Aug 24, 2005)

I have no problem with Monte charging what the market will pay for this book. In fact, I like that there are high-end d20 products out there. I don't buy many of them, mostly because I'll never get the chance to use them, but I think it looks good for our hobby to have high-end products. It reinforces the fact that the stereotype of the teenager in his parent's basement is wrong. There are plenty of gamers working good paying jobs who can afford this. 

With WLD cover priced at $100, this makes sense. WLD is a great book, and it sounds like Ptolus will include even more bells and whistles. If Amazon discounts it, I might go for it. 

Seems to me Amazon is a big factor in book prices these days anyway. I recall from my economics classes that coupons and sales are a way to for a company to play both ends of the supply and demand spectrum. If a company can sell a product at full price to the people willing to pay full price, and at a discounted price to bring in those consumers who wanted the product but were not willing to pay quite as much, that is just smart business.

It worked on me with WLD. I waited for the big discount at Amazon, and after seeing the book I think I would have been happy paying cover price. As Buttercup mentioned, many DVD collections go for this price range. I would rather pay $120 for a book, some maps, and a CD, all with content new to me, that for a few seasons of a television show I have already seen.


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## Bobitron (Aug 24, 2005)

I'll check it out, but I'll be honest; the thing that will sell me on it will be the art. If the art isn't up to par, I'll pass.


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## DaveMage (Aug 24, 2005)

Hmmm....

$120 for a 640-page full-color product with handouts, a CD, and a poster map?

If it's available on amazon, it would probably be for $79.20.  (And, make that $71.28 with my gold box coupon.)

Sounds great!


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## Henry (Aug 24, 2005)

No slams on Monte, but purely and simply, Ptolus at that price wouldn't be a sale to me. Whether he cut it into three books, where I could buy one book per quarter, or dropped it in price, or some other change, I could handle, but I couldn't justify one book for that.


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## DaveMage (Aug 24, 2005)

Henry said:
			
		

> No slams on Monte, but purely and simply, Ptolus at that price wouldn't be a sale to me. Whether he cut it into three books, where I could buy one book per quarter, or dropped it in price, or some other change, I could handle, but I couldn't justify one book for that.




But it's not just a book...it's an adventure!


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## Sammael (Aug 24, 2005)

Varianor Abroad said:
			
		

> Yet you feel compelled to constantly take these little slams and digs? Me personally I am not a Furry fan, but you've gone off and tried to slam both Malhavoc and those who like the Furry thing. <shrug> I hope you can find something that makes you happy.



Fact: Arcana Unearthed/Evolved features several anthropomorphic animals as playable races, more than any other RPG I've seen in the recent times.
Fact: Another term for anthropomorphic animals is "furries"

I don't think I've stated anything wrong. I don't like furries, but I highly doubt that people who do like them would be bothered by my comment. I simply implied that I consider Arcana Unearthed a furry setting.

<shrug>

I own lots of sourcebooks that make me happy. Unfortunately, most Malhavoc books do not fill that criteria (_Beyond Countless Doors_ excepted, as it is a superb book).


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## shaylon (Aug 24, 2005)

I think it was expected to be this much, at least that was early speculation from the threads here when it was announced.  It is a lot of money, but I am sure it will be interesting.  I doubt that I would pay full price but then again I need to see more about it before I determine how useful it will be to me.

-Shay


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Aug 24, 2005)

Really sounds to me like this is just a GenCon edition of Ptolus...so everyone up in arms about the price can still get it for the 'normal' whatever it was going to be.


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## Wystan (Aug 24, 2005)

Sammael said:
			
		

> Fact: Arcana Unearthed/Evolved features several anthropomorphic animals as playable races, more than any other RPG I've seen in the recent times.
> Fact: Another term for anthropomorphic animals is "furries"
> 
> I don't think I've stated anything wrong. I don't like furries, but I highly doubt that people who do like them would be bothered by my comment. I simply implied that I consider Arcana Unearthed a furry setting.
> ...




Fact: Gnolls are dog men.
Fact: Rakshasha (sp?) are cat men
Fact: Illithid are squid men
Fact: Mongrelmen are beast men
Fact: Kobolds are lizard men
Fact: Bulliwugs are frog men
Fact: Lizardmen are lizard men
(all of the above have been listed as playable species)
Does this make Plain Vanilla D&D a Furry game as well?


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## Mercule (Aug 24, 2005)

philreed said:
			
		

> Sure, $120 sounds like a lot. But what's included in that cost?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




So, the dead-tree book is somewhere in the rather large spread from 600-700 pages, but the CD is fixed at 4 pages?  And in that hundred page variance, they know there are 4 pages they just can't possibly fit in the hardbound.  Either page means something I'm not aware of, or I wouldn't count too strongly on the accuracy of this article.

$120 for a 700pp hardbound with bells, whistles, and a ribbon?  Sounds fair.  Ptolus isn't likely to be a product on which I'd drop that much, but the right subject matter would get consideration from me.


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## Sammael (Aug 24, 2005)

Wystan said:
			
		

> Fact: Gnolls are dog men.



Hyena-men, actually.



> Fact: Rakshasha (sp?) are cat men



Nope. They are a type of fiend from Indian mythology that sometimes takes anthropomorphic features - goat, tiger, monkey, deer, etc.



> Fact: Illithid are squid men



If you say so. 



> Fact: Mongrelmen are beast men



Enlighten me as to what species of an animal is a "beast?"



> Fact: Kobolds are lizard men
> Fact: Bulliwugs are frog men
> Fact: Lizardmen are lizard men



True.



> (all of the above have been listed as playable species)



Not in the Player's Handbook, they aren't. If a DM allows it, it's his prerogative. But it's not the default assumption, unlike Litorians, Sibbecai, Dracha, etc. in UA/UE.

I appologize for derailing the thread and would like to ask all others to ignore my previous posts. Mods, feel free to delete them.


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## Turjan (Aug 24, 2005)

Wystan said:
			
		

> Fact: Gnolls are dog men.
> Fact: Rakshasha (sp?) are cat men
> Fact: Illithid are squid men
> Fact: Mongrelmen are beast men
> ...



No. Illithid, Kobolds and Lizardmen don't involve fur, but this is beside the point. Most of the races in the list don't have human bodies with an animal head screwed on. Female Sibeccai and Litorians even have specific primate mammaries. I suppose this is what leads to the "furry" appearance of the setting. Nothing wrong with that if people like that, but I don't. No big deal, though, as the appearance of races is exchangeable.

As to the original question, I really have to see how the finished product will be. I didn't buy WLD because of the price tag, either (but it's down to $40 now). I'm not particularly fond of Monte's writing style, either, although I generally like his books because of the content. In the end, it depends how much of the information is setting and how much is dungeon crawl, as I'm not a big fan of the latter (I usually only use shorter ones).

Just to bring the price in perspective: 3 Warhammer FRP books with 256 pages each add up to $120, too.


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## JoeGKushner (Aug 24, 2005)

Wystan said:
			
		

> Fact: Gnolls are dog men.
> Fact: Rakshasha (sp?) are cat men
> Fact: Illithid are squid men
> Fact: Mongrelmen are beast men
> ...




If they were all in the player's handbook and 0 level races, why not eh?


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## Barak (Aug 24, 2005)

sunderstone said:
			
		

> Wow....thats definately way too much. Monte can keep my copy (though I wasnt going to buy one anyway). If this is true, then Im done with Malhavoc entirely.




Hehe.  That's the funniest thing I've heard in a long time.  Do you also not own a car, since every company sell models that are probably more than what you'd be willing to pay for?


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## Einan (Aug 24, 2005)

Wow.  What is the sound of 100 knees jerking?

(Holds hand to ear to listen to this thread)

Ahh.  Now I understand Zen.


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## Romnipotent (Aug 24, 2005)

I'll buy it for clout! CLOUT I SAY!


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## BiggusGeekus (Aug 24, 2005)

Monte has a long tradition of releasing books as PDFs.

$120 for a top-end product sounds fair.  The RPG Police aren't busting my door down making me buy the thing.  

If nothing else, this book will ensure a dogfight for the privlige to be an ENnies judge next year in the hopes of scoring the book for free.  I doubt I'll qualify, which is why I am taking the first setp and nominating my Mom as a judge.  I'm sure she'll be impartial.  Please send all products to my place and I'll be sure that Mom gets them.  I promise.

-BG

PS Good luck with the book Monte!  Sounds like it's a labor of love!


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## IronWolf (Aug 24, 2005)

I think the initial reaction to a $120 book is bound to make one think a little.  But if you really look at what the book is, is it really that bad?  Say it falls into the 640 page mark, that is about 4 WotC books with their recent release of 160 page books (thinking the Waterdeep sourcebook here).  The WotC book went for $29.95 at full retail.  So $120 what four such sized books from WotC would go for at full retail.  Now throw in an embossed cover, poster map, 24 handout pages, a CD, built-in bookmarks and 300 pieces of art and you are really getting quite a lot in that book.

That's not to say I will be rushing out to buy it right away.  But I certainly plan to read the reviews, see what it looks like as it comes closer to release and make the decision then.  If the book seems good then I just might pick it up.  After all I am one of the ones always wishing the WotC books (expecially the Waterdeep book) were longer and more in-depth.  Sometimes that means I have to pay for those longer books (whether its from WotC or another publishing company).


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## Psychic Warrior (Aug 24, 2005)

BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> Holy crapola, Batman!  I had intended to buy the book until I saw that price.  That is ridiculous!  I did not buy WLD because of the price gouging.




How do you determine that it is price gouging?  At 800 pages and some dozen full colour maps WLD seems reasonably priced.  I can't afford it but I see it as a high end product with an appropriate price.  Not gouging in the least. 


> I am a Monte fan, but there is no way I could ever afford a book that pricey.  Heck, I had trouble with the price for Shackled City and I get a hefty discount.  My gamestore still cannot sell their other copy of Shackled City.  There is no way I could ask them to stock Monte's book.
> 
> The publishers may be pricing higher because of Amazon, but these prices are going to kill retail stores and then they loose the distributors!



I highly doubt we are going to see prices spike upwards on the vast majority of products.  This is simply another high end product with an appropriate price.  You can't buy the Mercedes are the same price as the Hyundai (depite my experience in retail in which everyone wants to).


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## Lobo Lurker (Aug 24, 2005)

Sunderstone said:
			
		

> Wow....thats definately way too much. Monte can keep my copy (though I wasnt going to buy one anyway). If this is true, then Im done with Malhavoc entirely.




Seriously? That doesn't make any sense at all. A company puts out one ultra-deluxe expensive product and you write off thier entire product line? 

That's like saying that you won't buy a Scion because Toyota, who owns Scion, also owns Lexus. Makes no sense at all. 

If it's a quality product, I'll think about picking it up. But I generally like what I see from Monte's workshops.


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## Wulf Ratbane (Aug 24, 2005)

Sunderstone said:
			
		

> Wow....thats definately way too much. Monte can keep my copy (though I wasnt going to buy one anyway). If this is true, then Im done with Malhavoc entirely.




WTF?


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## Khairn (Aug 24, 2005)

I was so-so on buying Ptolus to being with.

But now I'm re-thinking and considering it.

If the quality of the book, the maps, the support and the content is outstanding, then I'm leaning towards it.  But its flavor would have to be a very good fit for my style of play.  At the end of the day it will have to make me *want *  Ptolus to be the cornerstone of my campaign.

If Ptolus doesn't make me feel that way , then nope.


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## Piratecat (Aug 24, 2005)

For some reason I thought the normal edition of this book was set for $60-odd as well. I could be wrong.

Folks, please cease and desist with the furry discussion. This isn't the place.


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## mythusmage (Aug 24, 2005)

Wystan said:
			
		

> Fact: Gnolls are dog men.
> Fact: Rakshasha (sp?) are cat men
> Fact: Illithid are squid men
> Fact: Mongrelmen are beast men
> ...




More a scaly game, what with all the reptiles.


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## DaveMage (Aug 24, 2005)

BiggusGeekus said:
			
		

> Monte has a long tradition of releasing books as PDFs.
> 
> $120 for a top-end product sounds fair.  The RPG Police aren't busting my door down making me buy the thing.
> 
> ...




Actually, BG, if it's a Gen*Con 2006 release, then it won't be up for an ENNie until Gen*Con 2007, which means the book will have been out for 8-9 months by the time the ENnies judging process begins.

However, I hereby support your mom as an ENnies judge for 2007.


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## JoeGKushner (Aug 24, 2005)

IronWolf said:
			
		

> I think the initial reaction to a $120 book is bound to make one think a little.  But if you really look at what the book is, is it really that bad?  Say it falls into the 640 page mark, that is about 4 WotC books with their recent release of 160 page books (thinking the Waterdeep sourcebook here).  The WotC book went for $29.95 at full retail.  So $120 what four such sized books from WotC would go for at full retail.  Now throw in an embossed cover, poster map, 24 handout pages, a CD, built-in bookmarks and 300 pieces of art and you are really getting quite a lot in that book.




And what if you went with the 224 page full color books at $34.95? Then it's three books for $104.85 no?


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## JoeGKushner (Aug 24, 2005)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> WTF?




What? You're shocked at the outrage? When I was younger and worked at a gas station, when cigs went from $2.00 to $2.25 I had people cursing me out as if I were the cause of the problem.

People are emotional and see strange signs in the entrails of their pray.


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## Jupp (Aug 24, 2005)

I buy CG art books on a bi-monthly to monthly basis and those buggers cost a leg and an arm. So I am not too worried about the price of Ptolus if the content and the art is absolutely worth the money. If you get what you pay for (and you really, really want to have it) then its ok. So depending on the reviews it will get I might buy it.


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## IronWolf (Aug 24, 2005)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> And what if you went with the 224 page full color books at $34.95? Then it's three books for $104.85 no?




Quite true, there are lots of ways to work the math to one side or the other.  But you are still getting the embossed cover, poster map, 24 handout pages, a CD, built-in bookmarks in the Ptolus book for a $16 price difference.  I am just saying its not like they are thinking about charging $120 for a 224 page sourcebook.  This book is supposed to have a high page count and several other features that will most likely help justify the higher than normal price.


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## Shemeska (Aug 24, 2005)

Eh, not too terribly interested at the moment in Ptolus (irregardless of price), though I'd shell out $150+ easily for a massive, full color, Beyond Countless Doorways 2.


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## Wulf Ratbane (Aug 24, 2005)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> What? You're shocked at the outrage?




No, I am shocked at the complete non-sequitur.

Don't like the price tag, don't buy it. Fine. I just can't get from there to, "Never buying Malhavoc again."


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## TroyXavier (Aug 24, 2005)

While I don't plan on getting it, I don't see anything wrong with a 600 plus page book with full color going for that much.


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## Zappo (Aug 24, 2005)

*shrug*

I've got no interest in Ptolus, so this doesn't touch me. On a more abstract level, I think that high-cost, high-quality, high-pagecount books are a good idea. I've almost bought WLD, and the reason I didn't buy it wasn't the cost but the fact that my players don't like dungeons. If I were in the market for campaign settings, I'd love a mega book of the campaign setting. When I start a new CS, I end up paying about that money if not more in supplements anyway. I know that I'd pay even more than 120$ for a huge Planescape book, f'rex.


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## shaylon (Aug 24, 2005)

BiggusGeekus said:
			
		

> I doubt I'll qualify, which is why I am taking the first setp and nominating my Mom as a judge.  I'm sure she'll be impartial.  Please send all products to my place and I'll be sure that Mom gets them.  I promise.
> 
> -BG




Too funny!  I hope she gets on board.  I was really pulling for Murchad's Legacy at the Ennies!

-Shay


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## Lonely Tylenol (Aug 24, 2005)

Einan said:
			
		

> Wow.  What is the sound of 100 knees jerking?
> 
> (Holds hand to ear to listen to this thread)
> 
> Ahh.  Now I understand Zen.




Yeah, somehow people seem to be taking this as an attack on gamers by evil ol' Monte and his Malhavoc goons.  With the money they make on this book they'll have enough to build their doomsday device and destroy the universe.

Come on.  If the book is too expensive for you don't buy it.  I don't seen anyone whining because Ferraris aren't priced so that everyone can afford one, so why the outrage here?  There is no gamer's constitution that states that all gamers must be able to afford all products.  If Monte can sell a bunch of these and make a bundle on it, good for him.  I'm sure he knows what he's doing.  Better than most of us know what he's doing, for sure.

That he thinks he can sell an expensive, feature-laden product for a high price is not some kind of assault on the hobby.  If anything, it's an indicator of how strong the hobby has become, that a product like this is expected to turn profit.  I know there's a lot of paranoid Monte hate floating around out there (and in this thread), but nobody's forcing you to buy anything.


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## Lonely Tylenol (Aug 24, 2005)

FWIW, I'd rather have a pair of $60 books.  Not because I'd want to buy them separately, but because a book that big might have some problems with binding.  I find big books are often difficult to keep open to certain pages (especially near the beginning and end), are more likely to suffer from glue release problems, and just generally suffer from wear and tear more (due to higher weight).  They're also bloody awful to try to find anything in if you don't go through and put index tabs on the key sections.


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## Voadam (Aug 24, 2005)

My campaign includes Ptolus as we went through the banewarrens and have a lot of empire and faction politics going on. I will not buy the $120 version. Hopefully the $60 normal version is accurate and if he splits it into three pdfs and reduces it to IH level discounts then I will be all over it.

I was really tempted by WLD at 60% off but still did not get it. I limit myself to $25 a month for a gaming budget and I couldn't care less about a special cover, bookmarks, or other collector item features.

Felt the same way about the ravenloft 3e CS when it came out in regular and deluxe collector editions.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Aug 24, 2005)

Sammael said:
			
		

> I appologize for derailing the thread and would like to ask all others to ignore my previous posts. Mods, feel free to delete them.



Is your edit button broken? You can edit them out yourself, if you want.


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## Crothian (Aug 24, 2005)

There are few companies that would trust to make a hundred dollar book worth while, but Monte is one of them.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Aug 24, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> There are few companies that would trust to make a hundred dollar book worth while, but Monte is one of them.



Plus, he comes over and personally French-kisses everyone who buys a copy. It's true.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Aug 24, 2005)

So for those who buy this will this actually be used in play or will it be something that you sit on the shelf and avoid handling?  If a buddy wants to look at it will you tell him to put on gloves and use tweezers to turn the pages?  Or will handling it be dissallowed? 

On another note for that amount the binding on the book better be on par with the 1970's AD&D books and not like most of the RPG hardbacks I've bought in the past 10 years that have mediocre bindings that break apart when you try to lay them flat on the table, or just open them to read on a regular basis.

But either way I'm not his market, I can't bring myself to pay for bells and whistles that don't do much to improve the utility I would get out of the product.


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## Crothian (Aug 24, 2005)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> So for those who buy this will this actually be used in play or will it be something that you sit on the shelf and avoid handling?  If a buddy wants to look at it will you tell him to put on gloves and use tweezers to turn the pages?  Or will handling it be dissallowed?




It will get used, all books get used.


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## D_Sinclair (Aug 24, 2005)

To be honest, given the sheer size and the bells & whistles, it sounds like at $120, Ptolus will be underpriced by about $50.

But then again, I'm used to watching my boss drop $400+ on 700-1200 page clothbound hardcovers with B&W interiors on gloss paper.


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## KB9JMQ (Aug 24, 2005)

Well the setting isnt for me but if it was I would have no problem justifying the cost. I know I will get much more out of it than it costs.
Not to say I won't be jealous of those who will get it. A nice gaming book is still a nice gaming book.

Now if someone would do a huge Eberron adventure with cd, maps, etc I would be all over it.


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## IronWolf (Aug 24, 2005)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> So for those who buy this will this actually be used in play or will it be something that you sit on the shelf and avoid handling?




If I were to buy it it would be because I plan on using at least parts of it in a campaign.  It certainly wouldn't sit up on a shelf unused.


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## Crothian (Aug 24, 2005)

IronWolf said:
			
		

> If I were to buy it it would be because I plan on using at least parts of it in a campaign.  It certainly wouldn't sit up on a shelf unused.




Ironpup could play it, or you can store it on the ironing board for Ironwife.....


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## Sunderstone (Aug 24, 2005)

Barak said:
			
		

> Hehe.  That's the funniest thing I've heard in a long time.  Do you also not own a car, since every company sell models that are probably more than what you'd be willing to pay for?



Actually , I own a car, tyvm. I also have 2 jobs which keep me spoiled when it comes to things I want to buy so no problem with spending that kind of money on anything. I just wont spend that kind of money on one book. Save me the fanboyism and try getting out more yourself.

Mud slinging aside...
My favorite designers of old have always been Monte Cook and Bruce Cordell. Through the years Ive watched Malhavoc grow, bought a fair share of Malhavoc books, and have lurked in there forums. To me there isnt any justification for spending that much on any one book from Malhavoc or anyone else.

Someone mentioned it being a "Collectors Item", this I agree with to an extent. Im a "Collector". I own way too much D20 stuff that I know will never see a gaming table. My favorites ones, I usually buy two copies. One copy for the wear and tear of travelling to the game, seeing use, etc. The other copy is for my personal collection.
The Shackled City Hardcover is an example of this. I would love to buy a 2nd copy for my personal collection, Ive even had a second copy in my hands at one point. I just cant see spending another $45-60 on a second copy. I still might or might not break down and buy  another copy though but I dont know when.


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## ShinHakkaider (Aug 24, 2005)

If the CD in the book includes the PDF of the book I'm sold on it. 
If not I'll just be buying the PDF. If there is no PDF, I'm not buying it at all. 

For me it's just the matter of getting what I want. If I cant get it then D00d's dont get my money, it's that simple.


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## JoeGKushner (Aug 24, 2005)

IronWolf said:
			
		

> Quite true, there are lots of ways to work the math to one side or the other.  But you are still getting the embossed cover, poster map, 24 handout pages, a CD, built-in bookmarks in the Ptolus book for a $16 price difference.  I am just saying its not like they are thinking about charging $120 for a 224 page sourcebook.  This book is supposed to have a high page count and several other features that will most likely help justify the higher than normal price.




I agree. I agreed in the first place.

I was just pointing out the math. Hopefully the handout pages are top quality. We don't get enough of those these days.

I don't think it's overpriced. Too expensive for some? Yes. Overpriced? No.


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## JoeGKushner (Aug 24, 2005)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> No, I am shocked at the complete non-sequitur.
> 
> Don't like the price tag, don't buy it. Fine. I just can't get from there to, "Never buying Malhavoc again."




Welcome to the internet? Would you like to start your order with a flame war or just go straight for the non-sequitur? Or will that be a booth over by the 4th edition converstion?


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## HiLiphNY (Aug 24, 2005)

So much bitchy whining from all the poor kids.  If you can't afford it, I sympathize with you, but don't bitch about it.  Move on.  I make a pretty good living, and feel that $120 for a 650+ page book is just fine, thank you.


Besides, all this banter is moot.  Sales figures will tell the true story as to whether or not the price was right - it's called "Price Discovery."  In my biz, as a trader, I hear sooooo many times how such-and-such a stock is WAY too expensive.  At the end of the day, the only person who is actually right with respect to pice, is the market.  If the market can bear the price, then it's the right price.  End of story.


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## FickleGM (Aug 24, 2005)

Sunderstone said:
			
		

> Save me the fanboyism and try getting out more yourself.




I don't know that it is fanboyism (although some people will get offended if they perceive an attack on a favorite of theirs) as much as your blanket statement of being done with Malhavoc (in my case, this could have been any company).  If you have been continually disappointed with their products, I could see this as being a proverbial "straw that breaks the camels back".  It would appear, though, that you are not completely disappointed with their product, so why would you back yourself into a corner (unless when the next interesting and affordable product comes down the line you decide to buy it anyway)?

I will probably pass on this one, but it isn't something that I would normally buy (and is hard to justify).


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Aug 24, 2005)

Sunderstone said:
			
		

> Actually , I own a car, tyvm. I also have 2 jobs which keep me spoiled when it comes to things I want to buy so no problem with spending that kind of money on anything. I just wont spend that kind of money on one book. Save me the fanboyism and try getting out more yourself.



If everyone could stop with the personal shots, there's a valid point he made here: Every industry, after an early infant period, creates products at a wide variety of prices. I'm quite happy with my Honda, and I don't begrudge anyone their $50,000 Acura made by the same company.

If someone doesn't want WLD or Ptolus, great. But that doesn't make Monte or Malhavoc wrong for making it, and it doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the people buying it.

Ptolus will probably be a large percentage of the total amount of money I spend on all RPGs next year, but from what I know so far, the setting sounds more or less perfect for me for baseline D&D games (as opposed to Northern Crown, for instance, which would be tricky to drop in, say, Crypt of the Devil Lich).

At the same time, I didn't buy The World's Largest Dungeon, because I'd simply never use a significant enough fraction of the material to justify purchasing that. I'd rather get fewer pages of an equivalent dollar amount's worth of Dungeon Crawl Classics, because I can get exactly the content I want, and not the stuff I'm not interested in. (Leiber-inspired crow goddesses, yes. Undead invading a paladin order's castle, no.)


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## Crothian (Aug 24, 2005)

Sunderstone said:
			
		

> My favorite designers of old have always been Monte Cook and Bruce Cordell. Through the years Ive watched Malhavoc grow, bought a fair share of Malhavoc books, and have lurked in there forums. To me there isnt any justification for spending that much on any one book from Malhavoc or anyone else.




What justifications are you looking for?  Malhavoc makes quality books, they have a good sense of rules and layout and writing.  They make high quality books, what more does a publisher have to do to justify this to you?


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## FickleGM (Aug 24, 2005)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> If everyone could stop with the personal shots




I hope that my comment was not considered a personal shot, as I was just pointing out the only real flaw I saw in his comments.  I actually agree with most of what has been said on both sides of the argument.  I only think that we sometimes use ALWAYS/NEVER too much when we may not mean that.  I also did not have a problem with his comment until after I read a later post in which he appeared to be pleased with Monte's work in general.  If that is the case, then this is either a knee-jerk reaction to the price (and he may not actually mean that he is done with Malhavoc) or he thought that the price was so out of line that he actually intends to never buy from Malhavoc again.

If it is the first case then fine, I make knee-jerk reactions too.  As I try to remind myself when I do it, next time give it more thought.

If it is the second case then I only hope that the decision was well thought out.

Either way, the decision is his to make, I am only giving my view.


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## Mighty Veil (Aug 24, 2005)

*My 2 cents*

Reading what's been said I find myself agreeing with a few people. The Monte Fans might not like what is getting said, they should learn to accept critics.

1. Furry races are a bit lame. D&D might offer furries to play but not as standard races. AU is heavily influenced by saturday morning kids cartoons, so I'm not surprised in seeing them. At least there are no races with a space monkey familiar (which is a surprising relief considering Malhavok was a villian from that show). But some people like stuff like Cat-men, etc. Me, I perfer Anglo-saxon/Euro based fantasy. Question: Would a Wookie be considered a furry race?

2. The book does sound like a money grab. I'm sure we'll be seeing on an upcoming update an essay on why it's price is actually fair and anyone who thinks otherwise is not only wrong, but foolish. So here's a betting pool: What reason will be used to explain why Plotus is worth US$120?
a) The insulting comparisson excuse: when he insults another companies' book to make his sound better.
b) The value excuse: when he explains how every book was with him while he showered and it's art is so good, so it's an instant collector's item! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




c) The marketing excuse: DVDs and CDs have expensive box sets, so this is just a RPG box set. And if you compared it to the price of a new BMW, it's a real deal!

Really, if it is a book that is a whole campaign allowing a DM to do little prep work. Then it could be a useful item for some. Those who just want it as a campaign setting guide book and were planning there own adventures. Those people I can see having a beef with the price tag. $120 is allot for any book. But maybe the guy wants to buy a new car so we're given an inflated price tag. If you play enough D&D, have a normal job (normal hours and normal pay, allowing you the normal bills that must be paid for every month), then chances are any book that saves you time is close enough to being worth $120 price tag, plus you should be able to afford it. The only questions then would be: Do I like the setting? Do I like the written campaign adventure?? 

Let's face it. If you don't use Malhavok books in your games (whether you still like them or not). Chances are you won't use this. If you use some Malhavok stuff but never its game worlds (you substitute the Realms for Diamond Throne or Greyhawk for IH's world of ruins), then you probably won't like this one too.


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## Arnwyn (Aug 24, 2005)

I am no fan of Monte's, and I dislike AU/AE... but I am so buying this book. It looks like it was designed exactly for people like me. With the insane page count, maps, handouts, and full-color work, as well as such things like color-coding and "mnemonic aiding repetition" blah blah blah, combined with the fact that it's a (likely) easily insertable setting product (it is only a city, after all) _and_ an adventure - I am the target market for this book.

And I'm all about the adventures these days.



			
				Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> So for those who buy this will this actually be used in play or will it be something that you sit on the shelf and avoid handling?  If a buddy wants to look at it will you tell him to put on gloves and use tweezers to turn the pages?  Or will handling it be dissallowed?



It'd be handled as roughly as my Nintendo DS. Same price, y'know (and I suspect that the hardcover book will be even more resilient). It's only $120, not the Hope Diamond.


> I can't bring myself to pay for bells and whistles that don't do much to improve the utility I would get out of the product.



From the report, it sounds like the bells and whistles actually _do_ enhance the utility of the product - more so than any other gaming book in existence (again, based on the report: "extensive cross-references, color coding, footnotes, topic divided indices, glossary, and mnemonic aiding repetition"? WTF? Somebody actually deciding that my game product should be _easily used_? Amazing).


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## Scribble (Aug 24, 2005)

From what others have said it looks like a big ol really nicely put together everything in one book campaign setting.

So it's probably worth the price tag. I mean most companies split the main stuff you need for a campaign world over multiple books. 

That said, even though I like Monte's work, I probably won't buy it. I'm not looking for a new campaign setting anytime soon. 

But then again, it's like a year from now, so what do I know now?


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Aug 24, 2005)

arnwyn said:
			
		

> It'd be handled as roughly as my Nintendo DS. Same price, y'know (and I suspect that the hardcover book will be even more resilient). It's only $120, not the Hope Diamond.




Considering how anal some posters here have stated they are about people putting thier grubby hands on thier books I thought the joke would be a bit funny.  I'm trying to remember who it was that said they don't even let their friends look at thier books at the game table, they have to buy thier own copy.  Anyway that was kind of tongue in cheek. 



			
				arnwyn said:
			
		

> From the report, it sounds like the bells and whistles actually _do_ enhance the utility of the product - more so than any other gaming book in existence (again, based on the report: "extensive cross-references, color coding, footnotes, topic divided indices, glossary, and mnemonic aiding repetition"? WTF? Somebody actually deciding that my game product should be _easily used_? Amazing).




Book marks, full color, embrossed cover, glossy paper, etc.  To me those are unnecessary bells and whistles.  But then again I'm the kind of guy who thought the Castles & Crusades books are perfect with thier black and white art and regular old paper for 19.99   Flashy books have never made my game run better, or made me more excited about a game so I tend to prefer a non-deluxe package that is more affordable.  Some of the ideas seem good, but overall its just a bit much for me, and I don't buy Monte's stuff in any event.  Hope you have fun with it though.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Aug 24, 2005)

Mighty Veil said:
			
		

> Let's face it. If you don't use Malhavok books in your games (whether you still like them or not). Chances are you won't use this. If you use some Malhavok stuff but never its game worlds (you substitute the Realms for Diamond Throne or Greyhawk for IH's world of ruins), then you probably won't like this one too.



What a strange assertion. What are you basing it on?

I own zero Malhavoc products but am interested in Ptolus. I do not exist in your equation.


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## Odhanan (Aug 24, 2005)

> Ptolus at that price wouldn't be a sale to me. Whether he cut it into three books, where I could buy one book per quarter, or dropped it in price, or some other change, I could handle, but I couldn't justify one book for that.




If it can make you more at ease about Ptolus, Henry, let me precise that, from the reports I've read about the GenCon meeting regarding the product, it will contain three different parts, Below Ptolus, Ptolus Itself and Above Ptolus (Jabel Shammar I think). These three parts would be sold in PDF format separately. So... here you go. 

There are remarks on this thread about "Monte Fans do/are like this or that". Namely that they would buy anything Monte puts his name on, that they don't accept critics and so on. I'm a Monte fan, guys (notice the non-capital f). There isn't such a thing as a "Monte Fan" pool of guys just bowing mindlessly about the Great-Monte-God. There are a lot of discussions over at his boards, many people disagreeing with contents and treatment in this or that product for this or that reason. The thing one can find, however, is a near-general respect for the opinions of each other. And that's great.

Take that as a rave about Monte's message boards, if you absolutely want to put a "Monte Fan" sticker on my name. 

I'm not the most neutral guy you could find to talk about Malhavoc products. Look at my sig. However, I know guys over on these boards who certainly don't deserve to be put in the same basket or be talked about like they are mindless, lame people without a will of their own. 

Now, my last point. The price of the book. Let me compare a 640+ pages book with handouts, CD, Deluxe cover and treatment, maps etc. not with BMWs but with say... *five pizzas* or *two/three diners at the restaurant* (depending on drinks, quality of the menu etc) ... well of course that's worth it, if you ask me!


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## JoeGKushner (Aug 24, 2005)

Odhanan said:
			
		

> There are remarks on this thread about "Monte Fans do/are like this or that". Namely that they would buy anything Monte puts his name on, that they don't accept critics and so on. I'm a Monte fan, guys (notice the non-capital f). There isn't such a thing as a "Monte Fan" pool of guys just bowing mindlessly about the Great-Monte-God.




At times it certainly seems like there are though. The whole one bad apple and all that no doubt.


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## BryonD (Aug 24, 2005)

Odhanan said:
			
		

> There isn't such a thing as a "Monte Fan" pool of guys just bowing mindlessly about the Great-Monte-God.



Sorry dude, but there are.

Is it some huge group or piece of the market? No.   But it is a very rabid and vocal core group.
They are there.

I have this theory that once someone decides that they really like a particular band, they tend to like songs by that band even if they wouldn't like that exact same song done the exact same way by someone else.  I'm not talking about anyone who simply likes a given band.  But I am talking about these "#1 FAN" types.  

I think the same principle works in gaming.


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## gamecat (Aug 24, 2005)

Ptolus doesn't appeal to me. I run my own setting, so no need for it. I'm not buying it.

A $120 price tag raises my eyebrows but I am not going off on a "m0nt3 haxx the prise of arr pee gee boox!!!one!eleven OMG WTF BBQ" spree.

A smile costs 13 muscles, a frown 45, apathy about none, except some eyebrows.


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## Varianor Abroad (Aug 24, 2005)

BryonD said:
			
		

> Sorry dude, but there are.
> 
> Is it some huge group or piece of the market? No.   But it is a very rabid and vocal core group.
> They are there.




Much like the anti-Monte fans feel compelled to post their dislikes in every single thread no matter how slim the reference? Usually accompanied by little snide comments?

Seriously. Monte's a great guy and a great designer. If you don't like his stuff, no skin off my nose. If you start getting nasty about him, well I'm sticking up for him. I also stick up for anyone else I see getting attacked unnecessarily when I know them personally. (Even when I don't know them in many cases.)


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## Eridanis (Aug 24, 2005)

Let's keep it civil, folks. Regular rules apply. No sniping at each other's motives or points of view.

$120 is a lot of money, and I most likely won't drop that kind of money on a book, but I'm open to the idea that there's going to be a heck of a lot packed into that thing. It all depends on how much use you get out of it. If youcan base five years of gaming in that campaign, then I imagine your ROI is pretty high.


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## Voadam (Aug 24, 2005)

Odhanan said:
			
		

> If it can make you more at ease about Ptolus, Henry, let me precise that, from the reports I've read about the GenCon meeting regarding the product, it will contain three different parts, Below Ptolus, Ptolus Itself and Above Ptolus (Jabel Shammar I think). These three parts would be sold in PDF format separately. So... here you go.
> 
> 
> 
> Now, my last point. The price of the book. Let me compare a 640+ pages book with handouts, CD, Deluxe cover and treatment, maps etc. not with BMWs but with say... *five pizzas* or *two/three diners at the restaurant* (depending on drinks, quality of the menu etc) ... well of course that's worth it, if you ask me!




Huh. I thought it was going to be 1 Ptolus the city, 2 running city games, and 3 the complete 1-20 campaign set in Ptolus.

As for the price comparison, as noted before I think of it in terms of the budget I set for myself for gaming stuff, $25 a month. So $120 represents five months of not getting any other gaming stuff or seriously splurging over my budget. There are tons of things within my budget that I can get and that I want so the price is a significant issue in whether I will buy it. We will see how much the pdfs are when they come out, and what they cover.


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## BryonD (Aug 24, 2005)

Varianor Abroad said:
			
		

> Much like the anti-Monte fans feel compelled to post their dislikes in every single thread no matter how slim the reference? Usually accompanied by little snide comments?




They do?



> Seriously. Monte's a great guy and a great designer.



He is one of the primary designers of what I consider the greatest RPG ever. 



> If you don't like his stuff, no skin off my nose.



Huh?  
Depart radically from the text often?



> If you start getting nasty about him, well I'm sticking up for him. I also stick up for anyone else I see getting attacked unnecessarily when I know them personally. (Even when I don't know them in many cases.)




Thats very nice.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Aug 24, 2005)

Hmm, the under/city/over division is a little disappointing to me, too. I was hoping for the world/the city/the adventure, myself.


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## Kvantum (Aug 24, 2005)

Well, I had no idea the thread would end up this contentious when I started it, jeez.

My big problem with the book's price is that 120 bucks is a third of my GenCon book budget. It's definitely tempting, but... I just can't justify spending 120 bucks on it at GenCon just to get an autographed copy. Likely I'll go the Amazon route, too. $79 is a lot more palatable than $119.99 or whatever it will turn out to be.

Now the question becomes "Is Monte insane enough to release a 640 page pdf of the book?"


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## Crothian (Aug 24, 2005)

Kvantum said:
			
		

> Now the question becomes "Is Monte insane enough to release a 640 page pdf of the book?"




Yes, and as a PDF reviewer it will kill me......


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## Voadam (Aug 24, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> Yes, and as a PDF reviewer it will kill me......




More than a month after getting it I'm still working through wildwood from Bastion Press, which is only 256 pages. But Ptolus is supposedly going to be split into three pdfs so it should be comparable.


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## Voadam (Aug 24, 2005)

Kvantum said:
			
		

> Now the question becomes "Is Monte insane enough to release a 640 page pdf of the book?"




"AE just wasn't big enough!"


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## Crothian (Aug 24, 2005)

Voadam said:
			
		

> More than a month after getting it I'm still working through wildwood from Bastion Press, which is only 256 pages. But Ptolus is supposedly going to be split into three pdfs so it should be comparable.




Wildwood didn't take me that long.  But Arcana Evolved did.  I've got Iron Heroies in the Batters box right now and that's another tough one.


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## cignus_pfaccari (Aug 25, 2005)

I can't imagine that he'd release *only* the nice leatherbound edition and expect people to buy it.  $120 is a lot of money, and goes past a lot of people's spending thresholds.  I know it shoots right past mine.

If he wants people to buy and play in the Ptolus campaign setting, and, let's be honest, he does, then there'll have to be a regular edition at a less astronomical price ($60-$80, most likely).  The fact that several people have commented that they heard this was just a special GenCon edition is further proof, I think.

Brad


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## WildWeasel (Aug 25, 2005)

Sunderstone said:
			
		

> Actually , I own a car, tyvm. I also have 2 jobs which keep me spoiled when it comes to things I want to buy so no problem with spending that kind of money on anything. I just wont spend that kind of money on one book. Save me the fanboyism and try getting out more yourself.




So, uh, why doesn't a book qualify as "anything"?


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## ColonelHardisson (Aug 25, 2005)

Years ago, I remember getting a flyer catalog from Chaosium. It asked if people would be interested in a huge, deluxe Call of Cthulhu adventure. It would cost about a $100 (and that was wayyyy back in the 80s (as I recall), mind you), but would include handouts and props, such as an idol that the investigators were supposed to find. It sounded cool, so I replied that i'd definitely want one if/when it was published. Never heard anything else about it, except that the adventure eventually became "Horror on the Orient Express," which was a boxed set, but not of the size of the product they initially talked about. 

Anyway, this Ptolus product reminds a lot of that, except it looks like this one will get published as promised.


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## Lonely Tylenol (Aug 25, 2005)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> At times it certainly seems like there are though. The whole one bad apple and all that no doubt.




Hi there!  I'm a fan of Malhavoc Press.  Lots of good stuff comes out of there.  Lots of stuff I couldn't care less about too.  Anger of Angels?  Whatever!  Requiem for a God?  Yawn!  But I love the Books of Eldritch Might and I play AE regularly.  I'll be picking up the Iron Heroes PDF even though I have doubts I'll ever play it.  Before I came to ENWorld, I cut my messageboard teeth over at Monte's place, and a finer bunch of chaps you'll never find.  Always very polite, never snarky, no personal attacks to be seen... I won't be buying Ptolus because it's too expensive for my tastes and I'm not that fond of city adventures.

I'm very sorry to spoil everyone's pet theories about fans of Malhavoc.  I suppose I could pretend to be a droolingly rabid Monte loyalist.


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## pogre (Aug 25, 2005)

I wish more publishers would come out with premium, complete products like this. I won't pre-order it, but I will likely pick it up because I love the concept and I like the idea of the BIG hobby package.

I may not love everything his company puts out, but I'm a Monte fan because he has guts and is doing what he loves.


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## Nightfall (Aug 25, 2005)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> I paid $100 for A Game of Thrones Deluxe Limited Edition, so yeah, I'd drop $120 on Ptolus.




See I'm just going to stick with getting that in PDF format.


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## Arnwyn (Aug 25, 2005)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> Considering how anal some posters here have stated they are about people putting thier grubby hands on thier books I thought the joke would be a bit funny.



Ah... I see what you meant - yeah, that is funny.


> Book marks, full color, embrossed cover, glossy paper, etc.  To me those are unnecessary bells and whistles.



Yeah, I'm with you there. The stuff you mention above is definitely not value-added. (But the stuff that I mentioned makes up for that, in my particular case.)


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## Imruphel (Aug 25, 2005)

USD120 is not so bad for something that I expect to get about two years' worth of play out of.

I based everything on the "movie ticket" test: if I convert the price to movie tickets do I get more use out of the product that seeing the equivalent number of movies? I'm sure Ptolus will pass the "movie ticket" test with ease.


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## Pants (Aug 25, 2005)

Now see... I don't mind spending $120 on several different products over the course of several months, but dropping that much on one, huge books is just... not my style. Hopefully this does well for Monte, but unless he releases a 'Ptolus for Cheap Bastards' there's no way I'll pick this up.


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## Frozen DM (Aug 25, 2005)

As yet another person who dropped $100 ($130 canadian) on the Game of Thrones signed limited edition book, I could see myself buying this. I've spent thousands to date on books I rarely use, so what's another couple hundred. 

I've been a fan of Malhavoc's books for a while now (and own most of them), so I'm always interested in the new material Monte and the gang put out. I've always found their work consistently fun to read, play and use. 

But in the end, what it will come down to is, what I'm getting for my 120 (keeping in mind that in Canadian money that's at least $150). The maps, cd and everything else might not be enough (although they do sweeten the deal). I'm looking forward to reading everything about this book over the next year or so to find out just what it is the Ptolus book will offer, in detail. 

Then, once I have all the details, I can make an informed decision and buy the book as an impulse buy anyways


----------



## trancejeremy (Aug 25, 2005)

Personally, I think this is a great move. If it works.  Now admittedly, I wasn't planning on buying, since his stuff just doesn't do anything for me, but I think it's interesting to see if the RPG market is large enough to support "luxury" items such as this. 

I mean, personally, there are literally 100s of d20 books alone that I want but can't afford to buy (not to mention other rpg systems). But there are probably people the opposite of me, who have tons of money but are very selective in what to buy. If companies can get them to spend more money, it's a good thing.


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## Frozen DM (Aug 25, 2005)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> I mean, personally, there are literally 100s of d20 books alone that I want but can't afford to buy (not to mention other rpg systems). But there are probably people the opposite of me, who have tons of money but are very selective in what to buy. If companies can get them to spend more money, it's a good thing.




This is where I am. I'm young, single, and make a decent living. So I can direct a good part of my income to my hobbies. Just like I'm willing to spend hundreds on books, comics and dvd's, I can easily spend this much on RPG books. 

Plus, when I consider my purchasing decision process, how often I'll use a book in a game isn't very high. Usually I first look at whether I like the author or not (I like Monte's work, a lot). I then look at the subject matter (I'm a huge fan of campaign setting books as a general rule). Then I consider if I'll enjoy reading the book. Like some other gamers (I suspect) I just like to read gaming books, even if I'll never run the system or setting. I've bought most of the Eberron releases so far for this very reason, I think it's a cool setting to read about. 

So from the little I've read about the Ptolus book, I think it'll place high in all my main priorities. And as an added bonus, I have a place for a city like Ptolus in my homebrew campaign (which is a mishmash of other setting books) anyways


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## mythusmage (Aug 25, 2005)

For everyone's edification here is a Ptolus FAQ. Be sure to note the installment plan. Since it'll be another 50 weeks one should be able to pay for the setting in 6 months or so. This taking a heavy burden off one's monthly budget.


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## Monte At Home (Aug 25, 2005)

Wow! We weren't expecting all this discussion before we even put the website (www.ptolus.com) together. However, it's up now. There, you'll find lots more details about the book and about preordering (and some of the benefits of doing so). You can also see an art preview, a sneak peek at the page layout and organization the book, and a FAQ. Lastly, there's a list of our publishing partners with this product, including a few details of the upcoming Ptolus comic book series. 

There's lots more info coming in the coming year, but this is a start.

To address some of the things brought up in this thread (in no particular order):

1. There will probably be about 8 pdfs, not 3, in order to keep each individual pdf's price low. That way, if you're not sure about the whole thing, you can just try a small piece to see if this is for you. We have no plans of making it a single pdf, but if you buy all the pdfs, you'll have the entirety of the package's contents.
2. This isn't a special deluxe version of Ptolus. It's the actual thing. Aside from the pdfs, there won't be another version of Ptolus. (To be very frank, I don't know what we'd cut to make a "lesser" version. It's all pretty integrated.)
3. I don't think Malhavoc is known for inflated prices. In fact, I think it was here where someone mentioned that Arcana Evolved is, page for page, one of the best values in gaming. When you add in all the content from the CD Rom that will be included with the book, the package offers well over 1,000 pages of content. I proudly stand behind the value of this package, and I think the preorder package is an amazing deal.
4. The "bells and whistles" aren't meant to be meaningless fluff. Things like the bound-in bookmarks, the use of color, the handouts, and so forth are all designed for functionality. That said, I'm not going to apologize for putting together a deluxe book with a fantastic cover, amazing artwork, high quality paper, handouts, a full color poster map, and so on. Personally, I think the game industry deserves some really kick-ass high end products as well as the smaller, less-expensive ones, like our 32-page Player's Guide to Ptolus that we're releasing in May for $1.99 (yep, that's 2 bucks for the print version, and the pdf will be free). 
5. We're working hard to make sure that the binding of this book will be super-sturdy. There are interesting processes available in publishing that I don't think anyone in the game industry has tried before that will make the book sturdier, and we're looking into all of them.
6. Why yes, I am crazy. 
7. Since Ptolus is a city, it is uniquely designed so that it can be added to an existing campaign world that uses the basic d20 assumptions (monsters, elves, dwarves, wizards, etc.).

Is this book for everyone? No. And I knew that going in. If you're interested even slightly, however, check out the website with the previews of how the book will look and what we're doing that's different. Stop in at montecook.com from time to time over the next year and check out the extensive previews, design diaries, and more that we'll be putting up each week for the next 50 weeks.

Thanks!


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## mythusmage (Aug 25, 2005)

Monte At Home said:
			
		

> Thanks!




You're welcome. 

Folks, if somebody like me can afford an initial payment of $19.95 plus monthly payments of $10.00 most of you should have no trouble.

And checkout the art and page layouts. This is how a book is done, with care.


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## Dragonhelm (Aug 25, 2005)

*Paying in Installments*

I was poking around the Ptolus site, and I noticed a link for paying in installments.

Ptolus (Pay in Installments Option)

Beyond all that was said about prices before, I have to admit that this is a generous offer.  It makes the book affordable, and look at the goodies that comes with it.  Already, Ptolus is about the size of four sourcebooks.  Getting a CD-Rom and 5 copies of the Player's Guide on top of the book...yowza.

I don't like the idea of paying $120 flat-out, but done this way makes it a lot better.  Plus you can't deny the goods that come with it.

Now I've gone from a "no" to a definite possible maybe.


----------



## mythusmage (Aug 25, 2005)

*Re The Ageless Titan*

It's got broo!

(Check the bottom of the Ageless Titan picture on this page.)


----------



## A'koss (Aug 25, 2005)

I think the biggest stumbling block for me isn't the price, but the fact that Ptolus just seems like any other generic D&D city. As a matter of fact, all I've read suggests it's much like FR's Waterdeep (port city with dungeon underneath). While I can appreciate all the great production value that's gone into it, there's just no hook for me to want to drop $120 on it when I have _plenty_ of standard city material dating back to the early days of D&D. 

If Ptolus was something as original as Sigil or had something else that really set it apart you might get me to part with my money on it but as it stands I see little reason to.


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## Soel (Aug 25, 2005)

The package is definitely impressive, and ya gotta love the pre-order deals. I will have to look up more on the setting itself, but so far, this does impress me, and if I am intrigued by the setting, then $120 is a fair price for the book, extra adventure, and 5 copies of the Player's Guide (latter two free with pre-order.)

I admire the fact that you can pay in monthly installments as well. Really nice touch, and one that will make many take a second look at this...


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## Yair (Aug 25, 2005)

A very impressive product, and excellent preorder deals. 
I'm not really interested in finding a campaign setting right now, and even if I did I'm not sure Ptolus would be it, but the sheer extravaganve of it is tempting.
If I had a little more money, I'd probably cave in. As it is, I'm afraid Ptolus is just out of my league.


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## tetsujin28 (Aug 25, 2005)

Boy, I'm pretty surprised that whining is even an option for some people. But I really shouldn't be.

Anyways, $120 is cheap for the amount of material that's going into this book. No-one's putting a gun to anyone else's head and forcing them to buy it.


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## the black knight (Aug 25, 2005)

Monte must be in financial trouble to soak the gaming community for this kind of bread. Either that or he's been writing non-stop for the last twelve months and his editor's in China.


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## Numion (Aug 25, 2005)

120 isn't _that_ much money. I've noticed that in the ordinary business of life there are random, unexpected costs you just have to pay, of that caliber and even larger. (Like, for example, noticing that my old suit doesn't fit me, and I need to buy a new one for graduation - 170 euros *PLONK*) Unexpected costs of that size, and larger, haven't wrecked my budget thus far .. so an expected cost of that size doesn't worry me too much.


----------



## Kvantum (Aug 25, 2005)

Why do I get the feeling that there will be only a few pre-orders... _until_ the Player's Guide gets its free pdf release in May?


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## tetsujin28 (Aug 25, 2005)

the black knight said:
			
		

> Monte must be in financial trouble to soak the gaming community for this kind of bread.



I roll my eyes. Roll, roll.


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## Arcane Runes Press (Aug 25, 2005)

It looks absolutely beautiful so far, which is a good thing, I suppose.   

More power to you, Mr. Cook. I love to see barriers of design pushed, and I love the fact that companies are starting to click with the fact that this is a hobby that can support high end, prestige products. 

Patrick Y.


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## 2WS-Steve (Aug 25, 2005)

The previews look terrific -- gorgeous and well organized for use. I like the travelogue format and featured NPCs and so on in the sidebars.

As far as price goes -- I thought World's Largest Dungeon was worth it's $100 tag and 120 seems reasonable for this. And I love big, ultra-detailed cities. Someday I'll be able to run a campaign with Ptolus, City State of the Invincible Overlord, World's Largest City, Freeport, and Bluffside.


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## Corwyn_kop (Aug 25, 2005)

A payment plan?  A payment plan...Im not sure if this is utterly absurd or brilliant hehe.  I can see my monthly checklist now.  mortgage...car...insurance...ptolus...  For some reason the option of a payment plan is making me completely reconsider a product I hadnt planned on giving a second glance at (well maybe a second or third if it is really pretty).  Do we have to pass a credit check?  


Corwyn


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## Numion (Aug 25, 2005)

Corwyn_kop said:
			
		

> A payment plan?  A payment plan...Im not sure if this is utterly absurd or brilliant hehe.  I can see my monthly checklist now.  mortgage...car...insurance...ptolus...




To be honest when I read the monthly payment thing, I immediately thought about "Weird Pete" from Knights of the Dinner Table .. something he would do


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## rounser (Aug 25, 2005)

Hooray!

I hope this, and WLD, put multiple nails in the coffins of 32 page adventures and settings that contain only useless high level detail because of their page counts.

Unless improvised, I strongly suspect that a D&D campaign with exceptional depth requires this kind of page count.


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## JoeGKushner (Aug 25, 2005)

Speaking of Chaosium, they did have at least two special editions and they were both costly. I remember one was like $75 with a terrycloth and green leather cover and gold Cthulhu symbol on the cover and only saw the other one at Cons.



			
				ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> Years ago, I remember getting a flyer catalog from Chaosium. It asked if people would be interested in a huge, deluxe Call of Cthulhu adventure. It would cost about a $100 (and that was wayyyy back in the 80s (as I recall), mind you), but would include handouts and props, such as an idol that the investigators were supposed to find. It sounded cool, so I replied that i'd definitely want one if/when it was published. Never heard anything else about it, except that the adventure eventually became "Horror on the Orient Express," which was a boxed set, but not of the size of the product they initially talked about.
> 
> Anyway, this Ptolus product reminds a lot of that, except it looks like this one will get published as promised.


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## BryonD (Aug 25, 2005)

Arcane Runes Press said:
			
		

> and I love the fact that companies are starting to click with the fact that this is a hobby that can support high end, prestige products.
> 
> Patrick Y.




Now that I agree with competely.

I'm not really in the market for campaign settings.  But the price itself isn't a problem and I'd love to see other high end products come down the pipe.


And the art does rock.  Who knows, maybe I'll buy this just as an indulgence.  It could be a good read and simply fun to own.  Sigh, first dent in my armor.


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## Frozen DM (Aug 25, 2005)

Monte At Home said:
			
		

> That said, I'm not going to apologize for putting together a deluxe book with a fantastic cover, amazing artwork, high quality paper, handouts, a full color poster map, and so on. Personally, I think the game industry deserves some really kick-ass high end products as well as the smaller, less-expensive ones, like our 32-page Player's Guide to Ptolus that we're releasing in May for $1.99 (yep, that's 2 bucks for the print version, and the pdf will be free).




Nor should you. I personally love the fact that the game industry is experimenting more and more with both the quality (in terms of physical presentation) and size of products. I remember not too long ago people being incredulous at the size and cost of the World's Largest Dungeon. 

The game industry needs a broad range of products, from small, concise pdfs, to large deluxe products. If the market can support these products I say more power to the publishers. I don't remember who said it, but a few years back there was some discussion (maybe here, or maybe on newsnet) about the need for high-end products, products breaking the $100 barrier. How the industry could afford to finally expand out to this market. We've started seeing that in the last year, and I think it makes for an exciting time in the industry. 

I'm personally glad to see Malhavoc taking this step and look forward to reading more about the book.


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## Dragonhelm (Aug 25, 2005)

Corwyn_kop said:
			
		

> A payment plan?  A payment plan...Im not sure if this is utterly absurd or brilliant hehe.  I can see my monthly checklist now.  mortgage...car...insurance...ptolus...  For some reason the option of a payment plan is making me completely reconsider a product I hadnt planned on giving a second glance at (well maybe a second or third if it is really pretty).  Do we have to pass a credit check?




Why am I suddenly reminded of Jeff Foxworthy?

"If you've ever financed a tattoo...you might be a redneck."


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## Romnipotent (Aug 25, 2005)

Dragonhelm said:
			
		

> "If you've ever financed a tattoo...you might be a redneck."



"If you owe your taxidermist more than your annual income. You might be a redneck."

Dont forget the story about the Camaro


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## Barak (Aug 25, 2005)

Sunderstone said:
			
		

> Actually , I own a car, tyvm. I also have 2 jobs which keep me spoiled when it comes to things I want to buy so no problem with spending that kind of money on anything. I just wont spend that kind of money on one book. Save me the fanboyism and try getting out more yourself.
> 
> Mud slinging aside...




Dude, you missed the whole point.  I won't be buying Ptolus.  I'm not a fanboy.  But if Malhavoc comes out with something I want, I'll buy it, regardless of whatever else they may have produced in the past.


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## Henry (Aug 25, 2005)

Monte At Home said:
			
		

> ...bound-in bookmarks, the use of color, the handouts, and so forth are all designed for functionality. That said, I'm not going to apologize for putting together a deluxe book with a fantastic cover, amazing artwork, high quality paper, handouts, a full color poster map, and so on.




Gosh Darn you --- the gamer geek in me is getting excited. QUIT THAT!


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## Wulf Ratbane (Aug 25, 2005)

pogre said:
			
		

> I may not love everything his company puts out, but I'm a Monte fan because he has guts and is doing what he loves.




Ditto.


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## DaveMage (Aug 25, 2005)

I have three questions:

#1) Is this a d20 product (i.e. with the d20 logo on it)?  (And if not - why not?)

#2) Do the NPCs have alignments?  (I ask because in the sample .pdf the NPC listed there does not have an alignment listed that I could see).

#3) Will the Banewarrens adventure included be updated to 3.5?

Thanks!


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## Thunhus (Aug 25, 2005)

$120 is no barrier for me. I have spent at least $1500 to D&D Miniatures and I don't even like to play minis game and use them only in D&D sessions. I really like that we have some variation in game products.

I'm happy that there are separate player's guide also. That's the weak point in many campaign settings. It helps greatly to get players involved in setting.

And there is also adventure to get campaing rolling. Cool!


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## Romnipotent (Aug 25, 2005)

So Monte, as you check back on this thread and see us all talking, can I get a free copy to help promote the setting and product in Australia?
I'll show it off and say "Its not about spending the money, its about experiencing the page ribbons... It almost like a large bible, but illustrated."


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## Tetsubo (Aug 25, 2005)

Staffan said:
			
		

> It seems there's a general trend among publishers to test the limits of what people are willing to pay for big, high-end gaming stuff. People were apparently willing to pay $100 for the World's Largest Dungeon, so now Monte is testing the limits with $120 for a setting/city/adventure.
> 
> OK, I know not everyone who bought the WLD paid $100 for it (thanks to Amazon discounts etc.), but those discounts ought to be available for Ptolus as well.




I thought the $100 price tag on WLD was absurd. I see that the trend to insanity continues... I have no plans on buying Ptolus. For setting the price so high I might just not accept it if it were a gift. I find that insulting. No gaming book is worth $120...


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## BryonD (Aug 25, 2005)

Can a book be worth $30?

Can four books be worth $30 each?

Can a book four times the size of a normal book be worth four books?

When does the math suddenly break down?


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## Romnipotent (Aug 25, 2005)

when you walk out of the store with one book, $120 lighter, wondering why you're suddenly getting phonecalls from Monte... and the phones in the book, cut into the first 50 pages!


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## JoeGKushner (Aug 25, 2005)

mythusmage said:
			
		

> It's got broo!
> 
> (Check the bottom of the Ageless Titan picture on this page.)




Broo or Skurg? You know, those monsters from the Siege of Ebonring Keep?

One thing I'm a little worried about seeing that, is how much reprinted material will there be from AE/AU in there in terms of races and other bits. One of the reasons I originally rated the Complete Book of Eldritch Might lower than the individual books was that there was some cross over with AU and it didn't seem to take into account the changes in 3.5 in terms of available feats and spells.


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## Mystery Man (Aug 25, 2005)

You just _know_ its going to be on Amazon or Walmart for a 3rd of that price...


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## Aaron L (Aug 25, 2005)

I wish Monte well with this and it seems like it will be a great book, but it jusr doesn't hold any appeal for me at all.  Sorry


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## Morte (Aug 25, 2005)

Well, I'm not a D&D player. But if I were, I'd be interested in Ptolus because it sounds like a product which might take some work off the GM -- and if there's one thing I want from game companies, it's that.

If somebody did a 500-1000 page book covering all of the 50-100 star systems in one of the good corners of the Traveller universe, and they included setting material plus a seamless campaign, and it was written to be useful to GMs actually running games (not bedtime reading for grognard collectors), and they charged $120 for it, I'd be all over it. Because (a) most of the stuff coming out for Traveller is rather hopeless in terms of utility, and (b) buying whole campaigns neatly solves the usual "it is fundamentally impossible to stitch these six published adventures together" problem.


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## DaveMage (Aug 25, 2005)

Mystery Man said:
			
		

> You just _know_ its going to be on Amazon or Walmart for a 3rd of that price...




I'm usually an amazon purchaser, but I may pre-order depending on the answers to the questions I had above.

It's a very sweet pre-order package, IMO.


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## JoeGKushner (Aug 25, 2005)

DaveMage said:
			
		

> I'm usually an amazon purchaser, but I may pre-order depending on the answers to the questions I had above.
> 
> It's a very sweet pre-order package, IMO.




I was thinking much the same thing.


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## Maggan (Aug 25, 2005)

*One perspective*

I find the experiment with Ptolus interesting, and important for the development of the industry and hobby. 

I don't think this means that all products will be superexpensive in the future. It takes a lot of resources to create something like Shackled City (IMO a top tier product) or Ptolus (if the previews and info are to be believed). Not everyone has those resources, be they skill or money or distribution channels or what have you.

Therefore I think that we always will have low cost alternatives, like C&C, which caters to those who find the high cost items to expensive. If anything, the low cost items will have to really shine when rules and ideas are concerned, to pick up the fight with the flashier books.

Maybe the cheaper books can find an advantage in their format, with companies being able to respond faster to trends, and supply gamers with just the right content at the right time. I think this will become very important in the future, at least for the small publishers, who havn't got the clout to actually set the trends, as WotC and maybe even Malhavoc have.

So small and cheap books are already here, and will still be here tomorrow, and the format might even, if leveraged properly, be turned to an advantage when compared to the big books with high prices.

Now I want to see the huge and expensive books!

Cheers!

/M


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## Michael Morris (Aug 25, 2005)

Wow.  Why the fuss?  Gamers have been paying these kind of prices in the CCG market for some time now - a full box of Magic boosters runs $129 and I've watched guys buy two to five boxes when a new set comes out.


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## eyebeams (Aug 25, 2005)

Campaign settings are sufficiently hit and miss to demand a higher price for the investment. On the other hand, I do wish Malhavoc's lines were given extended hardcover support. I'd rather buy into something like Ptolus more gradually than plonk down a bunch of money for one big book, with some tiny booklets as support. Similarly, if I had a monster and GMing hardcovers for Aracana Unearthed, I'd be a happy guy. No idea how practical it is, though. Still, as it stands, Ptolus' buy in cost is too rich for me right now.


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## Staffan (Aug 25, 2005)

the black knight said:
			
		

> Either that or he's been writing non-stop for the last twelve months and his editor's in China.



Well, the last Malhavoc books that consisted mainly of new material and were written by Monte were Book of Hallowed Might II and Legacy of the Dragons (I don't count the AU Grimoire, since it was mainly converting stuff from the Eldritch Might series, nor Arcana Evolved since it didn't have all that much actually *new* material). I think both were released pre-Drivethru, so they have the same DTRPG release date: June 3rd 2004... which was more than a year ago. So yes, Monte seems to have spent most of the last year on writing Ptolus.


----------



## ColonelHardisson (Aug 25, 2005)

DaveMage said:
			
		

> I'm usually an amazon purchaser, but I may pre-order depending on the answers to the questions I had above.
> 
> It's a very sweet pre-order package, IMO.




It sure is. It makes it very difficult to not do so, especially with the payment plan. The payment plan is what sent Ptolus from being merely interesting-I'll-take-a-look-when-it-comes-out to I'm-thisclose-to-buying.


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## Mystery Man (Aug 25, 2005)

It's the price of gas that's driving up the price of Monte's books! He has to fill up his tank too you know.

But then again so do I. 

Just a whack-job theory I'm tossing out there to stir up the pot...


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## Crothian (Aug 25, 2005)

Michael Morris said:
			
		

> Wow.  Why the fuss?  Gamers have been paying these kind of prices in the CCG market for some time now - a full box of Magic boosters runs $129 and I've watched guys buy two to five boxes when a new set comes out.




and they complain about prices too.  you can'y judge the product by the complaints it gets now.


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## Piratecat (Aug 25, 2005)

the black knight said:
			
		

> Monte must be in financial trouble...




Actually, I'd argue the reverse. To be able to produce a really high-end, gorgeous book with a ton of pages suggests stability and decent financial resources in order to fund the writing and production effort.

Admin hat on: While there's nothing wrong with discussing RPG companies' financial state, please make sure you do so in a way that doesn't come across as offensive.


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## fuindordm (Aug 25, 2005)

If it had been a 40-60 dollar Plotus campaign book with B&W interior art on the level of AU or Iron Heroes, then there's no way I would buy it--it would sound like "just another campaign setting" to me.

Ironically, the higher price tag (and preview information) increases my confidence that this is a book I might actually use.  With that high a page count, the level of detail should be high enough to make DMing almost effortless.  With the full color, high quality interior art and maps, I know that I could give lots of stuff to the players to help them immerse themselves into the setting.  The player's guide idea is brilliant--I so wish that Eberron had had something like that.

So now I'm wrestling over whether or not to buy it, even if only for bedtime reading and idea mining.  But I have no doubts that the price tag is appropriate.

Ben


----------



## Pants (Aug 25, 2005)

Numion said:
			
		

> 120 isn't _that_ much money. I've noticed that in the ordinary business of life there are random, unexpected costs you just have to pay, of that caliber and even larger. (Like, for example, noticing that my old suit doesn't fit me, and I need to buy a new one for graduation - 170 euros *PLONK*) Unexpected costs of that size, and larger, haven't wrecked my budget thus far .. so an expected cost of that size doesn't worry me too much.



Yeah, well buying a suit for an important occasion and buying a luxury item are kinda different. One you kinda need, the other, not so much.


----------



## teitan (Aug 25, 2005)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> What? You're shocked at the outrage? When I was younger and worked at a gas station, when cigs went from $2.00 to $2.25 I had people cursing me out as if I were the cause of the problem.
> 
> People are emotional and see strange signs in the entrails of their pray.




I can relate to this, I live in a small town and work in a restaurant, not fast food though, and recently Columbus instituted a smoking ban. Well people from Columbus come down and when I ask if they want to sit in smoking or non I get the dirtiest looks and occasionally I get berated. I even had one guy call me a dumb a$$ redneck and ignorant a$$ because we have a smoking section... I am not even from around here and if you know me, redneck and dumb and ignorant are not words that apply to me by any means. I actually told this guy off politely and said if you don't like that we have a smoking section you can leave. I have never been more offended in my life. His family was apologizing and telling him to shut up and before I finally broke down, I told him off AFTER HE HAD COME UP TO THE REGISTER just to chew me out some more, he had been demanding corporates phone number! The family said they weren't even from around here but about 500 miles away!

Jason


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## teitan (Aug 25, 2005)

Monte At Home said:
			
		

> Lastly, there's a list of our publishing partners with this product, including a few details of the upcoming Ptolus comic book series.




Monte... you sure you want to work with the Dabel Brothers? They seem "inconsistent" and "controversial" in their dealings to be polite...

Jason


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Aug 25, 2005)

rounser said:
			
		

> Hooray!
> 
> I hope this, and WLD, put multiple nails in the coffins of 32 page adventures and settings that contain only useless high level detail because of their page counts.
> 
> Unless improvised, I strongly suspect that a D&D campaign with exceptional depth requires this kind of page count.




So you would rather there only be mega books like this and no 32 page 12.99 adventures I can buy, tinker with a bit, and then drop into my Greyhawk game for a few sessions of fun?  I'm not sure what your statement is trying to say I guess.


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## JRRNeiklot (Aug 25, 2005)

120 bucks???  Plus shipping?  That's like 6 lap dances plus cover charge!  If Monte throws in a lap dance, I'll consider it.


----------



## lanzaren (Aug 25, 2005)

*cheeseburger tax*

and really you only get 12 minutes of satisfaction from those dances.

I pre-ordered.  After reading the Ptolus campaign journals I have always wanted to run a campaign like that.  Now I am given the resources to do it.  I play every week on mondays from 6-10:30.  So far my AE campaign is at lvl 11, we have been playing for 11 months and three weeks.  Ptolus is giving me enough material to run a solid cohesive adventure from lvls 1-15 easy.  So with that theory, $120 divided by a years worth of playing hours is $0.58 an hour.
(52 weeks times 4 hours divided by cost)

$0.38 a game for 5 players and myself.  I pay more on chesseburger tax.

See you in Ptolus!


----------



## Numion (Aug 25, 2005)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> So you would rather there only be mega books like this and no 32 page 12.99 adventures I can buy, tinker with a bit, and then drop into my Greyhawk game for a few sessions of fun?  I'm not sure what your statement is trying to say I guess.




This thread seems to go from one extreme to another, doesn't it? I would prefer to have a selection of different size and prize modules. There would be little point in every module be a 100 dollar book for 20 levels .. sometimes you need less, sometimes more. 

When different publishers were year or two back asking what people would like, I mentioned (like many others) a great big 20 level campaign in one go (a series of books, BIG book, whatever). Now there are many. I'm happy. 60, 120 smackaroos to eliminate almost all of my prep work (which I seem to be less interest in doing the more normal work I have, or the more .. friggin _adult_ I have to be). Now, I've made a couple of pretty good adventures in my lifetime if I do say so myself - but whole campaigns? I'll have to concede that the Dungeon staff or Mr. Cook got me on that one.


----------



## JoeBlank (Aug 25, 2005)

Wow. 

Looking at the pre-order extras has wowwed me.

I'll probably never use Ptolus, but I am pretty certain that I will buy it. Signed and numbered does little to nothing for me, but all the extra goodies put this over the top. 

Wow.


----------



## freebfrost (Aug 25, 2005)

I was looking at getting it anyways, but I just went ahead and did the preorder today - it really does make it easier for budgeting purposes and with all the extras offered, well... that just made it that even easier to do.

Looking forward to it Monte!


----------



## Yair (Aug 25, 2005)

I just spent 130$ on roleplaying purchases, actually. But that was for three books, one of which is indeed a whole campaign. Plus shipping, that's like another book (30$).
With shipping & handling, I'm guessing I'll have to pay about 150$ for this book. :shudders: Possible, but only if it looks REALLY promising. Definitely not as a preorder, or before I read about a dozen reviews.


----------



## trancejeremy (Aug 25, 2005)

This at least is a better value than $10 32 page modules. If you buy $120 worth of them, you'll have what, 12, with a total of about 384 pages (Less, since you'll have the credits and OGL 12 times).  This is twice that size of that.

The only problem I have with this is its potential to injure people. I had Traveller 20 fall on my head, and that hurt. This is twice that size - it could kill people. Better have a warning label...


----------



## Henry (Aug 25, 2005)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> The only problem I have with this is its potential to injure people. I had Traveller 20 fall on my head, and that hurt. This is twice that size - it could kill people. Better have a warning label...




ALL of this tells me NOTHING, however. Pure pointless blathering. 

What I MUST Know about Ptolus, is...


,,,,Can it stop a bullet? 

I estimate that the book will be 2.25 inches thick , and I've known of people who say that their 1st edition Oriental Adventures had stopped a pen knife thrown at close range -- what caliber of slug would this book stop?


You people really make me want to buy it. Has anyone taken a close look at the downloadable preview pages that are up? That thing is going to have some sharp art, nice maps, and a fantastic layout. I'm not kidding when I say that, based on Ed Greenwood's comments about the Forgotten Realms at Gencon '03, it's everything he wanted to see in a proper Realms Encyclopedia.


----------



## Barak (Aug 25, 2005)

It's not really surprising..  We're talking about one of the most successful game designers (wether you like him or not has little to do with this), spending what, a full year doing nothing but preparing his personal campaign for publication.


----------



## Psychic Warrior (Aug 25, 2005)

Kvantum said:
			
		

> Well, I had no idea the thread would end up this contentious when I started it, jeez.
> 
> My big problem with the book's price is that 120 bucks is a third of my GenCon book budget. It's definitely tempting, but... I just can't justify spending 120 bucks on it at GenCon just to get an autographed copy. Likely I'll go the Amazon route, too. $79 is a lot more palatable than $119.99 or whatever it will turn out to be.




Whoa - you'll spend $360 on books at GenCon?  Yikes, that's my gaming budget for a year and half!  Of course if I actually got to GenCOn I'd probably not buy anything locally for months beforehand.  Of course now you'll have to be burned at the stake for not supporting your local games store


----------



## mcrow (Aug 25, 2005)

I have my A Game of Thrones rgp on order for $100. I also ordered Ptolus on the payment plan option, and after seeing the list of the goodies you get in addition to the main book I feel that A Game of Thrones is kind of a rip-off in comparison. 


I like the high end RPGs because they (generally) have the following in no particular order:

-- The best production values in the market (art, layout, and ect..)

-- Many times are related to a cool IP (not so much for Ptolus, though I do realy like the stuff that we do know of it)

-- I collect RPGs and the high end ones are signed and numbered which IMO make them more collectable.

-- They (most of the time) written by some of the industrys best. 


I do factor in whether or not I would play it or not and for A Game of Thrones I likely won't but I like the books so much and collect related stuff so I had to have it. Ptolus I like because the setting looks top notch and I should get some use out of it as well.


Oh, and I almost forgot. From what I understand  Ptolus will only be released in its premium edtion and as a pdf. It does not sound like there will be a less expensive print version.


----------



## Odhanan (Aug 25, 2005)

> Monte must be in financial trouble to soak the gaming community for this kind of bread.




Perhaps that's just the opposite: because Malhavoc is so successful, Monte can now afford to produce more daring products. From what I gather, this was on his wish list at some point. And Sue said something like "Why did you leave Wizards if not to publish what you really want to design?" 
"_ But that would mean working on this for more than a year. A year without new products."
"_ You know, Monte, we could hire someone to write for us while you get Ptolus rolling. You know... somebody like... a caffeine-powered robot."
"_ You mean Mearls?"

That conversation was at some point proposed on these boards. And it seemed really close to the reality, according to Monte.


----------



## BryonD (Aug 25, 2005)

Henry said:
			
		

> I've known of people who say that their 1st edition Oriental Adventures had stopped a pen knife thrown at close range




You've known more than one to say this?  Yikes!!!!


----------



## Turjan (Aug 25, 2005)

I see that the book contains art by "The Forge". From all the freebies they posted here some time ago you could see that they really have the right touch for realistic city sceneries. That sounds like an excellent collaboration !


----------



## tetsujin28 (Aug 25, 2005)

Add in all the preorder extras, and this thing's a total bargain. Sold.


----------



## tetsujin28 (Aug 25, 2005)

Monte At Home said:
			
		

> That said, I'm not going to apologize for putting together a deluxe book with a fantastic cover, amazing artwork, high quality paper, handouts, a full color poster map, and so on.



Nor should you. If we just do some brief economics, Empire of the Petal Throne was $25 in 1975. That was a _lot_ of money, back then. But it was also the highest-quality rpg put out during that time period, in terms of what was in the box. I still have my original maps, they're that sturdy. I'm sure Ptolus will be worth the dosh.


----------



## mythusmage (Aug 25, 2005)

I have a question for everybody. Have you considered that *Ptolus* was made possible by trust?


----------



## ColonelHardisson (Aug 25, 2005)

tetsujin28 said:
			
		

> Add in all the preorder extras, and this thing's a total bargain. Sold.




Ditto. Placed mine today.


----------



## nerfherder (Aug 25, 2005)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> Plus, he comes over and personally French-kisses everyone who buys a copy. It's true.



_If this is true, then Im done with Malhavoc entirely._

Cheers,
Liam


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Aug 25, 2005)

nerfherder said:
			
		

> _If this is true, then Im done with Malhavoc entirely._



Your post says no, but your eyes say yes.


----------



## Kvantum (Aug 25, 2005)

Psychic Warrior said:
			
		

> Whoa - you'll spend $360 on books at GenCon?  Yikes, that's my gaming budget for a year and half!  Of course if I actually got to GenCOn I'd probably not buy anything locally for months beforehand.  Of course now you'll have to be burned at the stake for not supporting your local games store



Well, actually, it's closer to $400. I'll be needing my fix after skipping this year's GC in favor of an actual honeymoon with my new wife. She understands, though. We went to GC '04 together when she was still just the fiancee.

And as my local GS only carries WotC releases in stock (other d20 stuff has to be special-ordered), I use GC as my miscellaneous d20 store. I do buy all my WotC books from my FLGS, but anything d20 that's not an absolute must-buy for me usually gets put off until GenCon... or else Amazon, if I can find it there.


----------



## nerfherder (Aug 26, 2005)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> Your post says no, but your eyes say yes.



LMFAO!

Seriously though, as someone in their 30's with a reasonable job, $120 is not a lot of money for something that would provide tens of hours of enjoyment.  Divided amongst a group of 4 players and a DM, thats $24 each.  Heck, I could easily pay $120 for a nice meal for two or filling up two tanks of gas (in the UK).

Kudos to Monte and AEG for providing a different kind of RPG product.

Cheers,
Liam


----------



## Remathilis (Aug 26, 2005)

Sadly, I'm too broke to even THINK about it, but if this sells well, my prayers for a PH/DMG/MM + little extra in one hard-bound tome comes closer to reality.

Its all in the SRD, why not someone?


----------



## Sunderstone (Aug 26, 2005)

So what happens next, do we green light all companies to produce $120+ books?
Shackled City was $60, Ptolus $120... where do we go next?


----------



## Dragonhelm (Aug 26, 2005)

Monte's payment installment plan is good and the extra goodies are all wonderful.  I don't doubt that content-wise, it is worth the money.

But what is it about the setting itself that warrants me spending $120 on it?  How is Ptolus different from any other fantasy mega-city?  What will I get from Ptolus that I can't find in Greyhawk, the Realms, Eberron, and so forth?


----------



## BiggusGeekus (Aug 26, 2005)

Sunderstone said:
			
		

> So what happens next, do we green light all companies to produce $120+ books?
> Shackled City was $60, Ptolus $120... where do we go next?




There are legions of d20 companies who will never produce such things, just because they can't afford the inital investment to print the suckers.

For example, at Parent's Basement Games Headquarters, the conversation between the CEO (me) and the Board of Directors (my wife) went something like this:

*CEO:* Hey, there's going to be a D&D book that costs $120!  Wouldn't it be cool if I did something like --

*BOARD OF DIRECTORS:* No.

I imagine many other companies had similar conversations.

Although, I do see that Monte is including a CD-ROM in Ptolus, just like we did with Murchad's Legacy.  It's cool to be an industry leader.  I wonder if Monte will follow in my footsteps with my next revoluationary idea for d20: laminated rulebooks so you can play underwater.  I'm sure it'll be a hit!


----------



## A'koss (Aug 26, 2005)

Dragonhelm said:
			
		

> But what is it about the setting itself that warrants me spending $120 on it? How is Ptolus different from any other fantasy mega-city? What will I get from Ptolus that I can't find in Greyhawk, the Realms, Eberron, and so forth?



This is exactly my issue with it too - despite it's obvious production value, Ptolus comes across like any other generic D&D city. I've got plenty of standard city stuff already...


----------



## ColonelHardisson (Aug 26, 2005)

Sunderstone said:
			
		

> So what happens next, do we green light all companies to produce $120+ books?
> Shackled City was $60, Ptolus $120... where do we go next?




"We" don't greenlight anything. Companies will decide whether it's worth the risk to publish such expensive products, and then we decide if we want to buy them. It's not like these will eb the only choices available for us to buy - there are, and will be, plenty of less expensive items to buy.


----------



## Eosin the Red (Aug 26, 2005)

Henry said:
			
		

> ,,,,Can it stop a bullet?




HERO system 5th Edition Revised can stop a bullet. They even filmed it. It has also been involved in several unfortunate incidents that resulted in hospitalizations for back strain.


----------



## Buttercup (Aug 26, 2005)

Sunderstone said:
			
		

> So what happens next, do we green light all companies to produce $120+ books?
> Shackled City was $60, Ptolus $120... where do we go next?




I'm not sure what the issue is.  Anyone is free to charge whatever they want, and if the market will bear the cost, so be it.  No one is forcing anyone else to buy this book, and it's existence, or for that matter the existence of any other expensive RPG book, will not effect the availability of less expensive products.

If you want it and can afford it, then buy it.  If you don't want it or can't afford it, then don't.  No biggie.


----------



## romp (Aug 26, 2005)

Buttercup said:
			
		

> I'm not sure what the issue is.  Anyone is free to charge whatever they want, and if the market will bear the cost, so be it.  No one is forcing anyone else to buy this book, and it's existence, or for that matter the existence of any other expensive RPG book, will not effect the availability of less expensive products.
> 
> If you want it and can afford it, then buy it.  If you don't want it or can't afford it, then don't.  No biggie.




pretty much my take, I am interested in Ptolus as a mine for ideas so I think that actually financing an RPG book is just silly, like using a credit card to buy groceries. But none the less some people do it and some people will with Ptolus. Ahhh well, more power to them and to Monte. It his choice to produce it and their choice to buy it.


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## FickleGM (Aug 26, 2005)

Henry said:
			
		

> ,,,,Can it stop a bullet?




Perhaps we have another marketing angle - 

"For only $120 you can protect yourself and your family"

"Save your life and have a campaign for only $120"


----------



## Dragonhelm (Aug 26, 2005)

A'koss said:
			
		

> This is exactly my issue with it too - despite it's obvious production value, Ptolus comes across like any other generic D&D city. I've got plenty of standard city stuff already...




I'll preface this by saying that I like a lot of Malhavoc's stuff.  I think they make some of the most innovative rules crunch out there.  

When I look at campaign settings, I want to see something that I don't see somewhere else.  I want something unique.  I like settings that offers me new territory to explore, new roles to play, etc.  That's why I like Dragonlance, Dark Sun, Spelljammer, Eberron, etc. etc.  They all offer me something new.

I'm not interested in settings that are more generic, like Greyhawk or the Forgotten Realms.  

Monte's design philosophy where settings are concerned is something I'm a bit leary of.  He says that he bases settings around rules, and doesn't bend the rules for the setting.  To me, that leads to a generic D&D setting.  My own design philosophy is that the setting is what draws people to adventure, and that rules can and should be broken or changed where necessary.  Hopefully the two can integrate nicely, but feel free to change things if you want.

Sometimes, a setting is great not only for the extra things it adds in, but also for what it takes away.  Dragonlance would not be the same if it had lycanthropic half-drow/half-orc psions in it.  

I'm not trying to criticize Ptolus or anything.  I think that from the standpoint of the package that you get, you get your money's worth.  The question is, do you get your money's worth for the setting?  Does it provide me with something new?  Is there a reason to adventure in Ptolus, rather than in Waterdeep, Greyhawk, Palanthas, and so on?

Basically, I'd like to know more about the selling points of the setting itself.


----------



## Campbell (Aug 26, 2005)

Eosin the Red said:
			
		

> HERO system 5th Edition Revised can stop a bullet. They even filmed it. It has also been involved in several unfortunate incidents that resulted in hospitalizations for back strain.




To be fair, HERO 5ER cannot stop all bullets.


----------



## TheAuldGrump (Aug 26, 2005)

Whoof!

I will most likely not buy this book (and part of me is screaming '_what are you, nuts? Of course you're not buying it!_') The price is just too high.

But... I will not say that the described content is not worth it. I will not say that I would not be happy to own it. And I will not say that the installment plan for payment does not tempt me. But I could not justify to myself that kind of expenditure on a single book.

If I made another $200 a month I would have a hard time not clicking the *Purchase* button on that page. I wish Monte luck with Ptolus, though I think that he is going to need that luck.

The Auld Grump


----------



## Sunderstone (Aug 26, 2005)

ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> "We" don't greenlight anything. Companies will decide whether it's worth the risk to publish such expensive products, and then we decide if we want to buy them. It's not like these will eb the only choices available for us to buy - there are, and will be, plenty of less expensive items to buy.




We do greenlight these things as consumers. If we keep buying the outrageously priced stuff other companies might follow suit figuring it'll work for them as well. RPG stuff has been getting more and more expensive every year. IMO, We dont need an evolutionary leap to the price increase just yet. I just dont want to see this kind of price trend forming.

Who knows, 10 years from now we may need a six figure salary to support our gaming habit.   

No disrespect intended but Im hoping this endeavor isnt that well recieved. It isnt particularly "fan-friendly". What happens to all the Monte and/or Malhavoc fans that cant afford to buy it (regardless of a "payment" plan)?


----------



## Kanegrundar (Aug 26, 2005)

Wow $120!?!?!  That's a bit steep even if they are loading it down with every bell and whistle under the sun.  This will definantly be a book in which I wait for reviews and then check out all the discount vendors before buying.

Kane


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Aug 26, 2005)

Sunderstone said:
			
		

> No disrespect intended but Im hoping this endeavor isnt that well recieved. It isnt particularly "fan-friendly". What happens to all the Monte and/or Malhavoc fans that cant afford to buy it (regardless of a "payment" plan)?



I was unaware that Malhavoc Press was a charity.

What happens to those people is the same thing that happens to sports car fans who can't afford a Ferarri. Actually, no. The people who really want this and can't afford it will get the Player's Guide to Ptolus for next to nothing, even for 32 pages of content (compare with how much a 32 page DCC costs). If they think it's still for them, they buy the eight PDFs, one at a time, as they can afford them and have need of them. Since much of the content is extremely high level, it's likely that most people playing a Ptolus campaign won't need it for months or years.

"Fan friendly?" What the heck is that supposed to mean? What's fan friendly is publishers creating a variety of content of all sorts, so that every fan is able to find something that scratches their particular itch. That a $120 extra super mega deluxe campaign book doesn't scratch your itch by no means invalidates it as a product. It's just not one aimed at you.


----------



## drothgery (Aug 26, 2005)

Sunderstone said:
			
		

> No disrespect intended but Im hoping this endeavor isnt that well recieved. It isnt particularly "fan-friendly". What happens to all the Monte and/or Malhavoc fans that cant afford to buy it (regardless of a "payment" plan)?




You know, the set of people where "can afford to spend $30 every month or two on RPG books" is true, and "can afford to spend $120 every year or two on a deluxe RPG book" is false is not very large. I probably won't buy Ptolus, but that's mostly because I rarely DM, and there is an upper bound on gaming material I buy just for my amusement, not because I can't afford it. It's exactly the sort of thing I'd buy if I did DM, and what I suggested that I'd pay $100 or so for when someone started a thread asking what kind of products could you see in that price range.


----------



## Sunderstone (Aug 26, 2005)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> I was unaware that Malhavoc Press was a charity.




You really should brush up on your reading skills. I never said companies were not in business to make money, and Im glad you're heading up Malhavoc's PR now. But thats ok, almost every comment you've made on this topic paints you in the same picture.

BTW, A car is alot different than an RPG gamebook regardless of your using it as an example.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Aug 26, 2005)

Sunderstone said:
			
		

> You really should brush up on your reading skills. I never said companies were not in business to make money, and Im glad you're heading up Malhavoc's PR now. But thats ok, almost every comment you've made on this topic paints you in the same picture.



I will grudgingly accept being painted as a reasonable person with a sense of perspective about things, even when it turns out that the entire industry is not geared around my budget and my needs.


----------



## ColonelHardisson (Aug 26, 2005)

Sunderstone said:
			
		

> We do greenlight these things as consumers. If we keep buying the outrageously priced stuff other companies might follow suit figuring it'll work for them as well. RPG stuff has been getting more and more expensive every year. IMO, We dont need an evolutionary leap to the price increase just yet. I just dont want to see this kind of price trend forming.
> 
> Who knows, 10 years from now we may need a six figure salary to support our gaming habit.




Ever take a look at RPGNow? There are tons of cheap game products there, with no end in sight.


----------



## ColonelHardisson (Aug 26, 2005)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> I will grudgingly accept being painted as a reasonable person with a sense of perspective about things, even when it turns out that the entire industry is not geared around my budget and my needs.




This is actually one of the few times I wish EN World had a rep system , so I could give you rep++ for this post.


----------



## Monte At Home (Aug 26, 2005)

To answer a few more questions:

Yes, it's d20.

Yes, the NPCs use alignment (the text in those sample pages is virtually unedited, it's really there to give you an idea of layout/organization and little more). It's pretty standard d20.

I'm looking into Banewarrens right now, determining whether a conversion is really needed.

As for more details about the setting itself rather than the package, that's a great question (and what I'd be asking myself). Now that all the basic details are out of the way, that's what I figure I've got about a year to describe. Please check in at montecook.com now and again in coming weeks/months for previews of actual content, discussions of what makes Ptolus Ptolus, and so forth. That's the fun stuff to write about in my opinion. With this much time, we hope to provide you with more than enough info so you can decide if this city/setting is for you.


----------



## HeinorNY (Aug 26, 2005)

*poor bastard*

What about the PDF version price?
Any chance we will have it soon?


----------



## tetsujin28 (Aug 26, 2005)

Eosin the Red said:
			
		

> HERO system 5th Edition Revised can stop a bullet. They even filmed it. It has also been involved in several unfortunate incidents that resulted in hospitalizations for back strain.



The first is true. The second is demonstrably false. Hero 5ER is actually freakishly light.


----------



## tetsujin28 (Aug 26, 2005)

Sunderstone said:
			
		

> You really should brush up on your reading skills.



And you should brush up on your politeness skills.







> Everyone can improve, somehow I never said companies were not in business to make money, and Im glad you're heading up Malhavoc's PR now. But thats ok, almost every comment you've made on this topic paints you in the same picture.



Wow, bad manners, false sense of entitlement, _and_ ignorance of how the market works. I've never seen that before.

Oh, wait a minute. I forgot. This is the internet.







> BTW, A car is alot different than an RPG gamebook regardless of your using it as an example.



The car in the example was a Ferrari. _No-one_, save Michael Schumcher, _needs_ a Ferrari, just as they don't _need_ a roleplaying game.


----------



## tetsujin28 (Aug 26, 2005)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> I will grudgingly accept being painted as a reasonable person with a sense of perspective about things, even when it turns out that the entire industry is not geared around my budget and my needs.



I applaud your reasonableness and perception, sir 


			
				ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> This is actually one of the few times I wish EN World had a rep system , so I could give you rep++ for this post.



Word.


----------



## Yair (Aug 26, 2005)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> I will grudgingly accept being painted as a reasonable person with a sense of perspective about things, even when it turns out that the entire industry is not geared around my budget and my needs.



This is, truly, the best response I've ever read to a snarky post. 
Kudos!


----------



## Cergorach (Aug 26, 2005)

$120 is expensive, especially when books such as Stargate SG-1 or SpyCraft 2.0 weigh in at 500 pages each and cost only $40-$50. Sure there's a lot of extra stuff, but is that worth it? I would say no, but after looking at the previews of the book... I love the presentation, i like the writing (the page of a dozen tavern rules rocks!), the presentation sounds nice, and Monte mentioned here that they're going to print with a very sturdy binding (making it hopefully indestructable). Add to that the goodies that you get when preordering, the fuzzy warm feeling you get when you support a publisher by paying full price at their online store, and the use you'll get from it when the need arises that you need to stop a pen knife... ;-)

You have another sale!

A couple of questions for Monte:
- Can you keep the numbering and signing small (i once got a signed book were the auther felt the need to use the entire page for his grafiti).
- Will the pdf versions of the book be on the CD? If not, why not?
- Is more support planned for Ptolus? What about the rest of the world were Ptolus is situated in?
- If this book is not a failure (financially), can we expect more of such products from Malhavoc?
- How many of this book are you planning to print? (just curious)
- Any novel support planned?


----------



## Jupp (Aug 26, 2005)

The art addict in me would buy this thingie instantly. The art looks really, really great so far and the layout looks to be well thought out (at least on those pages that are up for preview) . What really makes this book stand out is that it has indices, keywords, a (as it looks) usable TOC and this color coding scheme. All things that I really expect from companies like WotC or others, but so far they have done absolutely nothing in that respect (booya!)

The price for this monster looks quite reasonable but still, there is this thing here posted by Dragonhelm earlier:



> But what is it about the setting itself that warrants me spending $120 on it? How is Ptolus different from any other fantasy mega-city? What will I get from Ptolus that I can't find in Greyhawk, the Realms, Eberron, and so forth?




So as soon as I get a positive answer on this from either Mr. Cook or from the Ptolus page I will draw me credit card and order that thing.


----------



## mythusmage (Aug 26, 2005)

$20.00 initial payment
$10.00 a month for 10 months

Think you could afford that?


----------



## Cergorach (Aug 26, 2005)

mythusmage said:
			
		

> $20.00 initial payment
> $10.00 a month for 10 months
> 
> Think you could afford that?



Letś not forget shipping, i just paid $40 for bloody shipping this book...


----------



## Barak (Aug 26, 2005)

I just want to clarify the car analogy, since I'm the one who brought it up in the first place.  The point is not to compare Ptolus to a Ferrari.  The point is to compare Ptolus as a product in the RPG industry to a ferrari (or whatever luxury car, really) as a product in the automobile industry.

Both are pretty expensive compared to the rest of their respective industries (although neitehr are unique).  Both offer quite a few bells and whistles that the rest of the products in their industries do not.  Both are not necessary.  In fact, both can be rather useless to some people (I wouldn't buy a Ferrari even for 10,000$ if I lived in, say, Timbuctu).  Does that mean that neither should be produced?  Of course not, as both -will- be enjoyed by some people.  Does it mean that either will become the standard?  Of course not.  And just as you can still buy a Chevette even though Ferraris have been around for a while, I'm sure you'll still be able to buy cheap (but often useful!) PDFs at RPGnow.

But really, my analogy was prompted by the comment that the Ptolus release would mean Sanderstone would never buy Malhavoc products at all, which is like saying I'll never buy a Dodge because the Viper is so darn expensive.


----------



## Barak (Aug 26, 2005)

And now for something completely different.

Other than the fact that I'd get no use out of it (at least at the moment, that could change and I'd -consider- it then), my main problem is the size of the thing.  See, I own (and am running) the WLD.  That book's huge.  And while it's great as far as containing lots of stuff, it's very unwieldy.  Difficult to read in bed, difficult to read in the bathroom, etc, etc.  That's sort of why I miss boxed sets (yeah I know, cost of production would go way up).  Having a bunch of separate books would be much more practical to me.   And yeah, I know about PDFs, but that's impractical to me for other reasons.


----------



## Tharen the Damned (Aug 26, 2005)

Today I had a look at the Ptolus Homepage  and had to buy it.
For me in Germany its 120$ + 40$ shipping, thats about 130Euros.
But If you look into the contend (setting, adventure, DM guide for running city adventures) and see the great art and layout and consider the additional CD and stuff, I think it is well worth it.
The only thing that bugs me is that we have to wait until AUGUST 2006!


----------



## tetsujin28 (Aug 26, 2005)

Barak said:
			
		

> I just want to clarify the car analogy, since I'm the one who brought it up in the first place.  The point is not to compare Ptolus to a Ferrari.  The point is to compare Ptolus as a product in the RPG industry to a ferrari (or whatever luxury car, really) as a product in the automobile industry.



Exactly how I took it. I just decided to spin it a little differently.


----------



## DaveMage (Aug 26, 2005)

Monte At Home said:
			
		

> To answer a few more questions:
> 
> Yes, it's d20.
> 
> ...




S O L D !  (Order placed!)


----------



## Romnipotent (Aug 26, 2005)

Jason Engle art! Dammit, if it wouldn't be... umm... 160... so about $210 here
maybe....  mayyybe


----------



## glass (Aug 26, 2005)

Sunderstone said:
			
		

> So what happens next, do we green light all companies to produce $120+ books?



'We' don't greenlight anything. It's not upto you (or me) what game companies produce, or at what price they try to sell it: it's upto the indivdual companies concerned.

Your only choice is whether or not you buy it.


glass.


----------



## diaglo (Aug 26, 2005)

Wystan said:
			
		

> Fact: Gnolls are dog men.




not in the beginning. Gnolls were gnome- troll hybrids.





> Fact: Rakshasha (sp?) are cat men




not in the beginning heck not even in the 2000ed. the tiger men are the most common form but not the only one.

i'm gonna wait to buy it. i waited until theWLD was $40.


----------



## glass (Aug 26, 2005)

ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> "We" don't greenlight anything.





			
				glass said:
			
		

> 'We' don't greenlight anything.




Great minds think alike.  


glass.


----------



## glass (Aug 26, 2005)

Sunderstone said:
			
		

> We do greenlight these things as consumers. If we keep buying the outrageously priced stuff other companies might follow suit figuring it'll work for them as well. RPG stuff has been getting more and more expensive every year. IMO, We dont need an evolutionary leap to the price increase just yet. I just dont want to see this kind of price trend forming.



If people keep buying it, how is it outrageous? Just because you say so?


glass.


----------



## Flexor the Mighty! (Aug 26, 2005)

While I think it would be horrible for the hobby if this leads to the next edition of D&D having 120 dollar core books, regardless of size and content, I seriously doubt this is going to be the case.  This is a definite "high end" gaming product that isn't aimed at everyone.  While I don't think its "worth it" for my game and find it overpriced for what I would get out of it, I don't understand why someone would apparently get all worked up over its mere existance.  This isn't going to be a hobby changing book in terms of how things are priced and created.  It's a high end niche product.  Why get pissed about it?


----------



## Henry (Aug 26, 2005)

Sunderstone, there's no need to personally insult other posters when making a point.

What I differ with you on, is that this, or Spycraft, or Arcana Evolved or similar products, does not represent a complete change in the industry; it represents an experiment by industry leaders to see if the time is right for a new class of products - the premium product. I don't mean to insult any publishers when I say this, but RPGs have NEVER had premium products of this scale until recently (within the last five years or so). It's been boxed sets, or paperback books, or hardbacks of 200 or 300 pages. The only time I did see a similar product (the faux-leather-bound magic item comdpendiums from TSR) the company went under a year later.

The Leather-bound PHB a year ago, and the World's Largest Dungeon, taught publishers that there IS a market for such. It doesn't mean the PDF market, and the 3rd party market, are dead; it means that there's a class of gamers out there who can AFFORD more premium products, but have been making up for it by buying a bunch of non-premium products, or a bunch of dwarven forge instead.  If gamers have been buying cases of Magic cards, and cases of D&D minis for years now, why shouldn't they buy a top-end RPG book? 

I'm still in doubt about this product; I'm tempted by the purchase plan, but I'll have to see if I want to do it or not; I may just make it a 2005 christmas gift wish list item, instead! (Though my wife may look at me funny for buying a PREORDER).


----------



## DaveMage (Aug 26, 2005)

Henry said:
			
		

> I'm still in doubt about this product; I'm tempted by the purchase plan, but I'll have to see if I want to do it or not; I may just make it a 2005 christmas gift wish list item, instead! (Though my wife may look at me funny for buying a PREORDER).




Order it...

Order it...  You know you want to...

C'mon Henry, everybody's doing it...

Conform!  Conform!


----------



## diaglo (Aug 26, 2005)

Henry said:
			
		

> (Though my wife may look at me funny for buying a PREORDER).



bah, trade her in for wife number... 9 is it?



i bought the leather bound PHB
i bought the WLD

but i'm not paying retail for them. no way no how. 


diaglo "who complained about the price of his beloved OD&D(1974) boxed set and still does" Ooi


----------



## Thorin Stoutfoot (Aug 26, 2005)

*I just started a Ptolus campaign on Tuesday...*

What gets me is that I just started my Banewarrens game on Tuesday. If this product had been out earlier this year, I would have felt obliged to buy it. As it is, we'll probably be Ptolus'd out by the time the product comes out. On the other hand, the Banewarrens was so good I felt obliged to start an entire campaign just around it.


----------



## freebfrost (Aug 26, 2005)

Henry said:
			
		

> ,,,,Can it stop a bullet?
> 
> I estimate that the book will be 2.25 inches thick , and I've known of people who say that their 1st edition Oriental Adventures had stopped a pen knife thrown at close range -- what caliber of slug would this book stop?



This was pretty much disproved in  Mythbusters episode 16...


----------



## Reynard (Aug 26, 2005)

With some people crying foul, yelling that it will kill the industry, I would ask this: would it be okay if it was 3 $40 books?


----------



## Numion (Aug 26, 2005)

Reynard said:
			
		

> With some people crying foul, yelling that it will kill the industry, I would ask this: would it be okay if it was 3 $40 books?




Well, it will be around 8 pdfs ..


----------



## BiggusGeekus (Aug 26, 2005)

Reynard said:
			
		

> With some people crying foul, yelling that it will kill the industry, I would ask this: would it be okay if it was 3 $40 books?




More to the point, three $40 books roughly 200 pages long, with a free 96 page book tossed in.


----------



## diaglo (Aug 26, 2005)

BiggusGeekus said:
			
		

> More to the point, three $40 books roughly 200 pages long, with a free 96 page book tossed in.




and can be bought on ebay or other secondary market at $19 each or less.

i'll wait either way.

$120 is too much for a hobby book.


edit: and i like Malhavoc's stuff. i was 4th in line at Gen Con Indy 03... and i had drinks with Monte and Sue Cook and got to play Mike Mearls part at the Ennies this year (virtually)....


----------



## DaveMage (Aug 26, 2005)

diaglo said:
			
		

> and can be bought on ebay or other secondary market at $19 each or less.
> 
> i'll wait either way.
> 
> $120 is too much for a hobby book.




I'm surprised to hear you say that.

What's the most you've ever paid for a single RPG product (OOP or not) on e-bay?


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Aug 26, 2005)

Thorin Stoutfoot said:
			
		

> What gets me is that I just started my Banewarrens game on Tuesday. If this product had been out earlier this year, I would have felt obliged to buy it. As it is, we'll probably be Ptolus'd out by the time the product comes out. On the other hand, the Banewarrens was so good I felt obliged to start an entire campaign just around it.



After Banewarrens (and some more levelling up), you can put that group through the Night of Dissolution adventure, especially as it appears the Banewarrens set up much of the important plot points for the Ptolus campaign.


----------



## diaglo (Aug 26, 2005)

DaveMage said:
			
		

> I'm surprised to hear you say that.
> 
> What's the most you've ever paid for a single RPG product (OOP or not) on e-bay?





i paid $150 for Mike Mearls seat at the Ennies.  

i bid on the ancient d20 at sutherby's but lost.

i bought the orange B3, Up the Garden Path, the Jade Hare, and a few more off of the internet for $50 to $500 depending on rarity and condition. but those will never again be produced.


----------



## Vocenoctum (Aug 26, 2005)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> While I think it would be horrible for the hobby if this leads to the next edition of D&D having 120 dollar core books, regardless of size and content, I seriously doubt this is going to be the case.  This is a definite "high end" gaming product that isn't aimed at everyone.  While I don't think its "worth it" for my game and find it overpriced for what I would get out of it, I don't understand why someone would apparently get all worked up over its mere existance.  This isn't going to be a hobby changing book in terms of how things are priced and created.  It's a high end niche product.  Why get pissed about it?




While I'm by no means pissed about it, there's always the possibility that this will contribute to other books like it, meaning that some books WON'T be published as affordable books. the Premium PHB is a niche product, the regular PHB is not, as it were.

It's like a lot of books are Hardcover, simply to justify the price, rather than having to pay more because it's hardcover.

I don't think it'll be a big deal myself, but it's always the possibility.


----------



## DaveMage (Aug 26, 2005)

diaglo said:
			
		

> i paid $150 for Mike Mearls seat at the Ennies.
> 
> i bid on the ancient d20 at sutherby's but lost.
> 
> i bought the orange B3, Up the Garden Path, the Jade Hare, and a few more off of the internet for $50 to $500 depending on rarity and condition. but those will never again be produced.





So it pretty much has to go out of print before you're willing to spend serious $$?  

That's cool.  The thing I worry about is that a product like this will have a small print run.  Once it's gone - it's gone.  I'd rather pay $120 now then $300 later.  

Of course, the product may tank and you could then pick it up for $10 (plus $20 shipping on e-bay    ), but I hope that's not the case.  However, the secondary market will not have all the pre-order extra bells & whistles, which, to me, makes this one special.

Whoever put together the pre-order incentive did an impressive job (IMO).


----------



## Vascant (Aug 26, 2005)

I knew it was a matter of time before someone came out with something of this.. scale.

I do have some questions..Will this be supported afterwards or is it basically cash cow.  It has been a while since I have picked up one of MC's products but last one I seen had a pretty tight reign on OGL material.  The Guild website states up until release pre-orders have access, what happens after release?  Will this continue to be available, this this support continue enhanced and updated or will it turn into a membership fee type thing?


----------



## DaveMage (Aug 26, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> While I'm by no means pissed about it, there's always the possibility that this will contribute to other books like it, meaning that some books WON'T be published as affordable books. the Premium PHB is a niche product, the regular PHB is not, as it were.




Putting together premium books like this takes a bit of front-end capital, so that may eliminate a lot of publishers being able (or willing) to do this.  Also, the amount of work that goes into making a truly premium product is probably quite extensive, so that's another barrier.

I wouldn't mind 4 premium products a year (and by premium, I mean those that cost $60+).  Beyond that, it might be prohibitive.


----------



## JoeBlank (Aug 26, 2005)

DaveMage said:
			
		

> Whoever put together the pre-order incentive did an impressive job (IMO).




Like it or not (and I do), you gotta admit Monte is really pushing the envelope. I'm not a mindless fan-boy of his (if there really is such a thing), but I do like a lot of what he creates. But consider where he is going with this one book (plus extras):

1. Moving past the $100 mark for a setting book

2. Pre-selling the product a full YEAR before it is released

3. Offering an installment plan

Earlier, or in the pre-orders thread, someone mentioned that Monte seems to have a great grasp of economics, and this certainly seems to be true. Consider too that he was at the forefront of the gaming PDF industry, and you realize that watching Malhavoc might be watching the future of the gaming industry as a whole.

I don't consider that a bad thing, since Malhavoc still produces "normal" range products. I doubt any gaming company could live off of only high-end products, and I'm sure Monte is aware of that. Consider too that he has tried some things that did not work out (such as DRM-only PDF sales). But he tries different things, and our hobby grows.

The sale of high-end, high-profit products also gives a company resources and stability, which allows them to try new things and to produce a wide variety of products.

I think I've talked myself into buying Ptolus, if only to tip my hat to Monte for his inovative efforts.


----------



## Mark CMG (Aug 26, 2005)

Kvantum said:
			
		

> Hardback $120!?!





That'll be the new record for a single OGL product MSRP, eh?


----------



## philreed (Aug 26, 2005)

Mark CMG said:
			
		

> That'll be the new record for a single OGL product MSRP, eh?




Isn't it a record for any single RPG product?


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Aug 26, 2005)

philreed said:
			
		

> Isn't it a record for any single RPG product?



Well, there was the Special Edition of the Book of Erotic Fantasy, but I think I've said too much ...


----------



## Vocenoctum (Aug 26, 2005)

JoeBlank said:
			
		

> I don't consider that a bad thing, since Malhavoc still produces "normal" range products. I doubt any gaming company could live off of only high-end products, and I'm sure Monte is aware of that. Consider too that he has tried some things that did not work out (such as DRM-only PDF sales). But he tries different things, and our hobby grows.



Like I mentioned though, what if producing these types of books removes that material from buyers accessibility? Even if it's profitable, is that really in the best interests of the fans?

For instance, if someone has been salivating over Ptolus since the first ever mention of the setting, and now there's a book coming for it, but he can't foot the bill, he loses out. The book can still make enough money to be a success, while leaving fans out in the cold.

And, yeah, Malhavok is a For Profit company, but it's not like a smaller, $40 book wouldn't have also made money, so I'm not taking some AntiCorp line, just wondering if this book will serve the needs of the fanbase.


----------



## Mark CMG (Aug 26, 2005)

philreed said:
			
		

> Isn't it a record for any single RPG product?





Not sure.  Maybe.  Although I've tried a few other systems over the years I've never been a big follower of non-D&D games.  I would imagine only a boxed-set or special edition (ala the leather bound PH, which I know was $75ish) might come close.  Has WW ever tried anything along those lines or SJG?  Since this new one will contain more than just the book (DVD?) I guess it would be fair to include any big bundles in answer to my question, provided they were all focused on the same thing and not a bundle of disparate products.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Aug 26, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> For instance, if someone has been salivating over Ptolus since the first ever mention of the setting, and now there's a book coming for it, but he can't foot the bill, he loses out.



He can't foot the $2 bill for the 32 page Player's Guide to Ptolus?

He can't foot the bill for the eight PDFs the full book is split up into? Malhavoc sells PDFs for half the cost of the hardback book. So all eight PDFs will run $60, or approximately $7.50 each.

And, again, some of the content, specifically the content above the city, is quite high level. Very few people will need that content for quite some time if they're starting fresh with Ptolus.



> The book can still make enough money to be a success, while leaving fans out in the cold.



Any fan who can't afford the series of nine low cost alternatives ($2 player's guide, and then eight PDFs approximately $7.50 each) is someone who is unlikely to have been able to afford a $40 hardback instead.


----------



## Crothian (Aug 26, 2005)

Mark CMG said:
			
		

> Not sure.  Maybe.  Although I've tried a few other systems over the years I've never been a big follower of non-D&D games.  I would imagine only a boxed-set or special edition (ala the leather bound PH, which I know was $75ish) might come close.  Has WW ever tried anything along those lines or SJG?  Since this new one will contain more than just the book (DVD?) I guess it would be fair to include any big bundles in answer to my question, provided they were all focused on the same thing and not a bundle of disparate products.




For a single product it is the most expenisive I've seen.  WW, SJG, Eden; they've all put out special edition books but I've never seen any of them top 75.  I've seen collection of books go for much mor ethen this the most expensive beeing GoO who had (and may still offer it) a special price for one of everything basically.


----------



## BiggusGeekus (Aug 26, 2005)

philreed said:
			
		

> Isn't it a record for any single RPG product?




Didn't Mongoose have a metal-bound limited edition Judge Dredd book?


----------



## Crothian (Aug 26, 2005)

BiggusGeekus said:
			
		

> Didn't Mongoose have a metal-bound limited edition Judge Dredd book?




Ya, but I don't think that topped the 100$ mark


----------



## Vocenoctum (Aug 26, 2005)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> Any fan who can't afford the series of nine low cost alternatives ($2 player's guide, and then eight PDFs approximately $7.50 each) is someone who is unlikely to have been able to afford a $40 hardback instead.



Look at the average sales of a PDF. It's not a viable alternative for many people. The little players guide is neat enough, but I'm not sure how useful it is, since it doesn't exist yet.

But, anyway, not really worth argueing over, since I'm _not_ a Ptolus fan. I'm speaking of the potential disappointed fans, and for the future effects.


----------



## Thorin Stoutfoot (Aug 26, 2005)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> After Banewarrens (and some more levelling up), you can put that group through the Night of Dissolution adventure, especially as it appears the Banewarrens set up much of the important plot points for the Ptolus campaign.




Hm... What level PCs is Night of Dissolution set up for? We'll see how quickly my PCs progress through Banewarrens. If they get through most of it by winter, we'll probably start another campaign. If they're still halfway through it by January, I might turnaround and buy it.


----------



## Crothian (Aug 26, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Look at the average sales of a PDF.




The PDF market is keep growing, so its only a matter of time before it really breaks open.  Something like this could really see that happen.


----------



## Cergorach (Aug 26, 2005)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> Well, there was the Special Edition of the Book of Erotic Fantasy, but I think I've said too much ...



Yeah, but that included a lap dance, although not by monte ;-) Or did you mean the very special limited edition that included the mindflayer sex toys... *grins evily*


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Aug 26, 2005)

Thorin Stoutfoot said:
			
		

> Hm... What level PCs is Night of Dissolution set up for? We'll see how quickly my PCs progress through Banewarrens. If they get through most of it by winter, we'll probably start another campaign. If they're still halfway through it by January, I might turnaround and buy it.



Hmmm, the page for it -- http://www.ptolus.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?mpress_NOD -- doesn't say, but I seem to recall in the campaign diary at the site that the characters were around level 17 at the time and had a rough go of it.


----------



## Wolv0rine (Aug 26, 2005)

Campbell said:
			
		

> To be fair, HERO 5ER cannot stop all bullets.



Well that only makes sense doesn't it?  HERO never did True Invulnerability well.  But if you're afraid of encountering a higher caliber bullet, I'm sure HERO Games would be happy to sell you a 5th Ed. book with a higher PD and some Damage Resistance.


----------



## philreed (Aug 26, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> For a single product it is the most expenisive I've seen.  WW, SJG, Eden; they've all put out special edition books but I've never seen any of them top 75.  I've seen collection of books go for much mor ethen this the most expensive beeing GoO who had (and may still offer it) a special price for one of everything basically.




If I had a brain . . . I'd be dangerous.

Crothian's post brought my brain out of its slumber long enough to remember that:

WW released a limited Vampire for $125. It included a leather-bound art book.

SJGames released a limited GURPS 4e set for $125 (I should have immediately thought of this since I was in on planning the product and a copy is on the bookcase behind me).


----------



## Mark CMG (Aug 26, 2005)

philreed said:
			
		

> WW released a limited Vampire for $125. It included a leather-bound art book.
> 
> SJGames released a limited GURPS 4e set for $125 (I should have immediately thought of this since I was in on planning the product and a copy is on the bookcase behind me).





Those are just the sort of things I had thought might have been done, and I figured if there had ever been an SJG one, you'd have known about it.  Thanks (and to Crothian, too!)


So, it's five bucks shy of setting the record?  He ought to bump the cover price to $130.00 just to set the bar higher (and leave the pre-order price as is).


----------



## philreed (Aug 26, 2005)

Mark CMG said:
			
		

> Those are just the sort of things I had thought might have been done, and I figured if there had ever been an SJG one, you'd have known about it.  Thanks (and to Crothian, too!)




Well, I should have instantly thought of it. 




			
				Mark CMG said:
			
		

> So, it's five bucks shy of setting the record?  He ought to bump the cover price to $130.00 just to set the bar higher (and leave the pre-order price as is).




I don't think we're too many years (less than five, for sure) from a $200-$250 RPG product. I'm hoping it will be a big box with several books, poster maps, and player hand-outs.


----------



## Thorin Stoutfoot (Aug 26, 2005)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> Hmmm, the page for it -- http://www.ptolus.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?mpress_NOD -- doesn't say, but I seem to recall in the campaign diary at the site that the characters were around level 17 at the time and had a rough go of it.



Yeah, but the web page claims mid-level characters. I don't know about you, but 17 level doesn't sound like mid-level to me! I estimate that the PCs will be 11th or 12th by the end of the Banewarrens. I doubt if that's considered mid-level, unless Monte's campaigns are like nothing I've ever seen. (What I've noticed is that around 15th level is when I as DM lose control of the game)


----------



## Wolv0rine (Aug 26, 2005)

My question is...  just what exactly is it that makes the book worth $120?  I don't mean what does Monte think makes it worth it, I mean what do You think makes it worth it?  Is it the art, the layout, the bells & whistles?  Is it because Monte wrote it?  Would it be equally as worth it if someone you'd never heard of did it?  

I've never bought a Malhavoc book, I wouldn't pay $120 for a single RPG purchace (but I'm kind of cheap).  I'm not posting this to badmouth Monte, the book, or anyone who would buy it.  I'm posting this to try to figure out what makes an RPG book worth $120 dollars.  I can't imagine it's the bookmark(s) (fancy as they may be), I can't imagine it's that it comes with a CD (in an age where I can burn as many CDs myself on my computer for the cost of CDs).  As far as I can see this book has 4 things going for it;

1) Monte wrote it (The fanboy rationale)
2) Sharp Layout (This is cool and all, I grant you)
3) Tight Art (which is unfortunately subjective to the nth degree.  Would it be as worthwhile if the art was just as good, but B&W?  Or does it have to be color art to make a book worth a huge amount of money in relation to other products in the industry?)
4) Pagecount (Of all the things in this list, this is the one that would influence me the most as far as a large price tag, although art comes a close second)

So, for everyone who will buy it, are buying it, have ordered it...  what exactly makes an RPG book worth $120 (and no analogies about cars, please.  For the sake of arguement assume that $120 is a *HUGE* amount of money for an RPG book.  In my experience it is for a large number of gamers.).  I'm just trying to understand this from a consumer's point of view.


----------



## Sunderstone (Aug 26, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> But, anyway, not really worth argueing over, since I'm _not_ a Ptolus fan. I'm speaking of the potential disappointed fans, and for the future effects.




My point as well. 
While I dont know much about Ptolus, I did like Banewarrens alot. For $60, I might have bought the book as long as it was on par with SC quality-wise.


----------



## Thorin Stoutfoot (Aug 27, 2005)

Wolv0rine said:
			
		

> My question is...  just what exactly is it that makes the book worth $120?   For the sake of arguement assume that $120 is a *HUGE* amount of money for an RPG book.  In my experience it is for a large number of gamers.).  I'm just trying to understand this from a consumer's point of view.




A book is worth $120 if it saves me $120 worth of time. If you make $10 an hour, that's 24 hours of time. (Studies show that people value leisure time at half their hourly rate) If you think about it, that makes most pre-published adventures, etc., worth a lot of money if you're a salaried professional (techies are a substantial portion of D&D players). Most such folk make $20+/hour, so something like the Banewarrens if it cost $20, need only save 2 hours of work for it to be worth the money.

Something like Ptolus (a setting) isn't as valuable because it can't directly save me time (i.e., I can't use it without putting a lot of my own work into it), except for the 90 page adventure, which I suspect I can buy separately for much less. But something like my Dungeon subscription at $40 a year gets purchased because all I need is to use 6-8 adventures a year and it pays for itself, saving about 4 hours of prep time.

Something like the Age of Worms, if I had to buy it separately from Dungeon, could easily be worth $100. Throw in all the minatures, battlemaps, etc needed to run it, saving even more work, and it could be worth $300 or more.


----------



## Wolv0rine (Aug 27, 2005)

The logic used makes sense, but I'm not sure if you're saying that a campaign book (like Ptolus) is or isn't worth $120 to your thinking.


----------



## BiggusGeekus (Aug 27, 2005)

philreed said:
			
		

> I don't think we're too many years (less than five, for sure) from a $200-$250 RPG product. I'm hoping it will be a big box with several books, poster maps, and player hand-outs.




I don't think that's unreasonable either.  Shackeld City was a good first step in this direction.  I could see a $200 box with all the goodies, the core rules, and you have a full campaign ready to go for the next year and a half.  Not just a dungeon crawl, but a bonanza of side quests and whatnot.


----------



## mythusmage (Aug 27, 2005)

Thorin Stoutfoot said:
			
		

> A book is worth $120 if it saves me $120 worth of time.




How much is D&D worth to you? How many hours are you willing to put into it? How willing are you to sacrifice something else to provide your players with an interesting, possibly entertaining experience?

Or is there too much work in making the game your own?


----------



## tetsujin28 (Aug 27, 2005)

Thorin Stoutfoot said:
			
		

> A book is worth $120 if it saves me $120 worth of time.



Exactly. And it's getting to the point where $120 isn't all that many hours of time, for me (oh, the glories of higher education!). But to come up with _1,000 pages_ of rpg material? That's gonna take me forever. I mean, if this thing ends up supplying me with 1-3 years of campaign material, it's totally worth it.


----------



## tetsujin28 (Aug 27, 2005)

mythusmage said:
			
		

> How much is D&D worth to you? How many hours are you willing to put into it? How willing are you to sacrifice something else to provide your players with an interesting, possibly entertaining experience?



It's not how many I'm _willing_ to put in, it's how many I _have available_ to put in. I'm a busy robot, and most of my friends are pretty darn busy, too.







> Or is there too much work in making the game your own?



Yes. I can always take something like Ptolus, and make it my own.


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## Thorin Stoutfoot (Aug 27, 2005)

mythusmage said:
			
		

> How much is D&D worth to you? How many hours are you willing to put into it? How willing are you to sacrifice something else to provide your players with an interesting, possibly entertaining experience?
> 
> Or is there too much work in making the game your own?




There's the trade-off. If D&D was my only hobby, I might be willing to sacrifice more hours to it. But it isn't. I've got my girlfriend, I've got reading (non-gaming materials!), cycling, hiking, backpacking, photography, a well paying job that I intend to keep (which can mean long hours), non-gaming friends, my family, etc. All of these things take time, so aside from weekly write-ups for the game, vetting the PCs, and the occasional conversion, I can't spare more time for D&D.

And most of my players are also busy professionals. We get together every week, get in 3 hours of gaming and 1 hour of socializing, and that's it. For us, this is a hobby, not a lifestyle. It's a game, not "immersive roleplay", so yes, it's too much work if I have to do much more than read the adventure/campaign setting. I love Monte Cook's work, so if he decided to do a "Shackled City" or other type of adventure path, I'd buy it even if it was $200.


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## The Thayan Menace (Aug 27, 2005)

*An Amazing Coincidence*



			
				Crothian said:
			
		

> There are few companies that _ would trust to make a hundred dollar book worth while, but Monte is one of them._



_For once, I agree with you.       _


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## Wayside (Aug 27, 2005)

Thorin Stoutfoot said:
			
		

> A book is worth $120 if it saves me $120 worth of time.



But this assumes that the buyer can do what the book does as good as the book does it. I don't think it's a stretch to say that the book is worth _more_ than the time it saves the buyer, since, in general, it's doing something many (but of course not all) of its buyers could never do half as successfully.


----------



## romp (Aug 27, 2005)

I was going to go into a longish post about how pricing an item in a luxury driven market place (such as the entertainment RPG hobby) really works (hint: it is not really supply/demand). But thought not to bother, it might launch yet another flame war and some mod might assume I am bad mouthing Monte and temp ban me ... 

Monte is a master at the hype machine, all this fuss got me to mosey over the Ptolus web page and look at the sample pages, oooohh i started to like what I saw there, and then to drool when I read the part about cross referencing and the sample tavern page with nice adventure hook, kewl 600 pages+ of that and ... must resist the preorder button ... aaagghhh, pretty maps ... must resist ...

The PDFs might be more my speed, at least they would be way cheaper, especially if there were a way to order dead-tree maps seperately from the book to go along with it. Though I doubt Monte would do that until later, replacement maps might be a good idea.


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## mhacdebhandia (Aug 27, 2005)

Wolv0rine said:
			
		

> 1) Monte wrote it (The fanboy rationale)
> 2) Sharp Layout (This is cool and all, I grant you)
> 3) Tight Art (which is unfortunately subjective to the nth degree.  Would it be as worthwhile if the art was just as good, but B&W?  Or does it have to be color art to make a book worth a huge amount of money in relation to other products in the industry?)
> 4) Pagecount (Of all the things in this list, this is the one that would influence me the most as far as a large price tag, although art comes a close second)



If I bought it, all of the above would apply; I like Monte's work, the book is very pretty, and it has a *lot* of information packed in to it. But for me, the deciding factor would be:

5) Designed for maximum utility.

Cross-references, maps, flavour and mechanical information all mixed in together . . . it's the level of *detail* that would sell me on it.


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## ecliptic (Aug 27, 2005)

I simply cannot get myself to pay $120 for a campaign setting.


----------



## sinmissing (Aug 27, 2005)

Malhavoc got its last dollar from me with Iron Heroes.  I doubt I'd want it, even for $30.


----------



## catsclaw227 (Aug 27, 2005)

I caved in and pre-ordered it.  I CAN'T WAIT!

I am a big fan of his stuff.  Even though I don't use AE, I own it for the ideas. His Eldritch might series is great, the iron might, roguish luck, hallowed might.... all good. Beyond Countless doorways... great. 

Whatever.... I started reading his Ptolus stuff a long time ago and GMed the Banewarrens.  I am drooling over this one.  I budget myself $100-$200 per month for PDF and Print RPG products.  This one will do just fine, since I won't be buying much for a month or so, being deep into the Drow War campaign from Mongoose.


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## catsclaw227 (Aug 27, 2005)

Thorin Stoutfoot said:
			
		

> There's the trade-off. If D&D was my only hobby, I might be willing to sacrifice more hours to it. But it isn't. I've got my girlfriend, I've got reading (non-gaming materials!), cycling, hiking, backpacking, photography, a well paying job that I intend to keep (which can mean long hours), non-gaming friends, my family, etc. All of these things take time, so aside from weekly write-ups for the game, vetting the PCs, and the occasional conversion, I can't spare more time for D&D.
> 
> And most of my players are also busy professionals. We get together every week, get in 3 hours of gaming and 1 hour of socializing, and that's it. For us, this is a hobby, not a lifestyle. It's a game, not "immersive roleplay", so yes, it's too much work if I have to do much more than read the adventure/campaign setting. I love Monte Cook's work, so if he decided to do a "Shackled City" or other type of adventure path, I'd buy it even if it was $200.




This is also my exact situation.  I totally concur. (just exchange girlfriend with newlywed wife)


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## tetsujin28 (Aug 27, 2005)

sinmissing said:
			
		

> Malhavoc got its last dollar from me with Iron Heroes.  I doubt I'd want it, even for $30.



You didn't like Iron Heroes?


----------



## philreed (Aug 27, 2005)

tetsujin28 said:
			
		

> You didn't like Iron Heroes?




That surprises me. I thought Iron Heroes was beautifully designed. While it's still "over-the-top action" the challenges (both skill and combat) and minor elements like armor and reserve points were fantastic.


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## Sammael (Aug 27, 2005)

I got the Iron Heroes PDF and disliked it as well. Once again, it has great production values and a big-name author, but I didn't like the concepts, the execution, the art, and the flavor.


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## mhacdebhandia (Aug 27, 2005)

All of those elements were pretty much saturated throughout the previews . . . so one wonders why, exactly, you subsequently bought even the PDF.


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## Sammael (Aug 27, 2005)

mhacdebhandia said:
			
		

> All of those elements were pretty much saturated throughout the previews . . . so one wonders why, exactly, you subsequently bought even the PDF.



Because I liked the _idea_ behind Iron Heroes and it was so cheap that I couldn't resist checking it out to see what I can salvage from it? Anyways, i don't think my buying habits have anything to do with the post I replied to; I was simply responding to someone who apparently couldn't imagine that someone didn't like Iron Heroes.


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## Buttercup (Aug 27, 2005)

Wayside said:
			
		

> But this assumes that the buyer can do what the book does as good as the book does it. I don't think it's a stretch to say that the book is worth _more_ than the time it saves the buyer, since, in general, it's doing something many (but of course not all) of its buyers could never do half as successfully.




True.  Experience has taught me, however, that I never use campaign settings for anything other than idea mines.  My homebrew concoctions might not be as good as what the pros put out, but brewing 'em makes me happy.  I suspect many other DMs feel the same way.  

Don't get me wrong--if I wanted this book I would buy it, were it twice the price.  I'm flawed that way.    But I think I'm done buying campaign settings.  I've got all that I'll ever need.


----------



## Keeper of Secrets (Aug 27, 2005)

If Monte's campaign setting is a good as his other products then the price is not all that important to me.  I would much rather pay 120 bucks for top of the line items than 30 bucks for something which does not meet my expectations.


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## Psychic Warrior (Aug 27, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> While I'm by no means pissed about it, there's always the possibility that this will contribute to other books like it, meaning that some books WON'T be published as affordable books. the Premium PHB is a niche product, the regular PHB is not, as it were.





Well - that's great!  More high end products (my most anticipated one is World's Largest City) can  only be a good thing.  Your line of reasoning that low end books won't be published is weak and fatally flawed.


----------



## Psychic Warrior (Aug 27, 2005)

Sunderstone said:
			
		

> So what happens next, do we green light all companies to produce $120+ books?
> Shackled City was $60, Ptolus $120... where do we go next?




Yes - that's exactly what "we" do.  The amount of flawed reasoning being tossed about in this thread is mind boggling.

I fail to grasp what you are up in arms about Sunderstone.  *If you don't want it don't buy it*.  Does this books mere (future) exsistance so infuriate you?  If it was 3 $40 books would that somehow be better?


----------



## Psychic Warrior (Aug 27, 2005)

ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> "We" don't greenlight anything. Companies will decide whether it's worth the risk to publish such expensive products, and then we decide if we want to buy them. It's not like these will eb the only choices available for us to buy - there are, and will be, plenty of less expensive items to buy.




Quoted for truth - thank you Colonel.


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## Grimstaff (Aug 27, 2005)

*foolish optimism*

I think its admirable that Monte has enough fans on these boards that he can garner large support for his price gouging. 
Yes, price gouging.
If you dont realize it, youre kidding yourself.
Most industries indulge in these occasional probes to explore what sort of price range the market will allow. The problem with this is that quite often fans are willing to splurge once in a while like this, but the market interprets this as a willingness to spend more all the time and prices start to creep higher across the board.
A good example I'm sure most people on these boards can relate to is the price of rock concerts. For a great many years, ticket prices capped out at about $60.00 for prime seats. THen a couple of bands (Eagles and Prince are good examples) decided to test the waters by charging $120 for general seats and up to $300 prime seats. And guess what, people paid! Of course the concert business interpreted this as an ability for the market to handle higher ticket prices across the board. Of course, they were horribly wrong, and big-arena concert tours quickly died out, replaced by smaller venues to reflect the dwindling number of people willing to pay ridiculous prices.
What Monte is charging for his product isn't a question of value, its a question of need and market impact. Why do you think SUV's cost as much as some houses? WLD is a great example, and ultimately led to Ptolus' price. Sure, WLD gave you a lot of pages for your $100.00. 
But how good were those pages?
Everyone who finished this module and got your $100 worth raise your hand.
Everyone who paid $100 to see the Eagles "last" tour (3 tours ago) raise your hands.
I suspect anyone who gets Ptolus will get exactly what they deserve: about $20.00 worth of playable material and $100 worth of vanity and market abuse that is going to make things more expensive for gamers across the board.
But then, I suspect Monte is concerned more with selling a quick 2 or 3 thousand print run and pocketing just enough dough to keep himself in business than he is on any long term market ramifications. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Mr. Cook is some black-hearted menace, we all know Ptolus is his baby and he will want to pull out all the stops. But as one of the people behind the rebirth of D&D he should remember how important the low price of the first 3 corebooks was for establishing a huge new fan base.


----------



## mhacdebhandia (Aug 27, 2005)

Grimstaff said:
			
		

> I think its admirable that Monte has enough fans on these boards that he can garner large support for his price gouging.
> Yes, price gouging.
> If you dont realize it, youre kidding yourself.



You're right, Grimstaff. Crack cocaine is a hell of a drug.


----------



## Wulf Ratbane (Aug 27, 2005)

Grimstaff said:
			
		

> I think its admirable that Monte has enough fans on these boards that he can garner large support for his price gouging.
> Yes, price gouging.
> If you dont realize it, youre kidding yourself.




I don't think you realize what it costs to produce an undertaking of this scope.

You have any idea what it costs to fill 600+ pages with color artwork? _Quality_ color artwork? Including cartography?

Occam's Razor and all, I would be willing to bet Monte is charging relatively the same as he'd charge for any other product. He's going to be investing a LOT of cash in this thing, and as someone who (on a smaller scale) has invested a lot of money on an experimental RPG product, as a labour of love, I wish him great success.

Wulf


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## Arbiter of Wyrms (Aug 27, 2005)

I have modified post 26 slightly for illustration:







			
				DaveMage said:
			
		

> Hmmm....
> 
> $12 for a 64-page full-color product with handouts, a CD, and a poster map?
> 
> ...



DaveMage, I'm on your side!  At this price, I'll buy ten of them!  I'm very much looking forward to this book, even if it is three months of my gaming budget.


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## Staffan (Aug 27, 2005)

Grimstaff said:
			
		

> I think its admirable that Monte has enough fans on these boards that he can garner large support for his price gouging.
> Yes, price gouging.
> If you dont realize it, youre kidding yourself.



To quote Inigo Montoya, "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

Price gouging refers to increasing prices to take advantage of a shortage of supply, usually in the wake of a crisis of some sort. For example, let's say some sort of natural disaster leads to a pollution of the local tap water. The local merchants immediately triple the cost of bottled water - *that's* price gouging.

In Monte's case, there are plenty of competing products at other levels of pricing. Plus, RPGs are a luxury - I don't think you *can* price gouge on a luxury.


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## dagger (Aug 27, 2005)

BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> Holy crapola, Batman!  I had intended to buy the book until I saw that price.  That is ridiculous!  I did not buy WLD because of the price gouging.  I am a Monte fan, but there is no way I could ever afford a book that pricey.  Heck, I had trouble with the price for Shackled City and I get a hefty discount.  My gamestore still cannot sell their other copy of Shackled City.  There is no way I could ask them to stock Monte's book.
> 
> The publishers may be pricing higher because of Amazon, but these prices are going to kill retail stores and then they loose the distributors!




I got WLD for 49


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## Grimstaff (Aug 27, 2005)

*Quantity and Quality*

"I don't think you realize what it costs to produce an undertaking of this scope."

As I said in my post, I dont doubt that Monte is pulling out all the stops with this and it is definitely a labor of love.
My problem is with the precendent it sets for a struggling D20 industry and whether you will actually get $120 worth of use out of the book. How much of the book is vanity project and how much is really needed to run a fun game in Ptolus? Does anyone seriously think they will get as much milage out of this as they do from their $40 Forgotten Realms setting? Or as much milage as they get from the $90 dropped on all three Core Rulebooks?
I think you're missing my point here, which is not so much having a problem with Monte dumping in a bunch of player handouts, CD-Roms, and novel-sized flavor text and turning a $40 campaign setting into a $120 one, its what everyone will do when WotC decides to apply the same strategy to 4E because market research tells them it worked for Ptolus and WLD.
Don't forget, the age demographic for our hobby keeps getting older and older. Do you honestly feel that young gamers will have an opportunity to get into gaming when costs across the industry start to creep ever closer to the $100 mark?


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## Wulf Ratbane (Aug 27, 2005)

Grimstaff said:
			
		

> I think you're missing my point here




I thought your point was that Monte was price gouging, which means charging more for the product than it's worth.

Hmm... just read your post again. That's what you said, all right. Twice in just the first two sentences.

Which means you're either ignorant of the definition of price gouging, or ignorant of the value of the product.

Either way, it was a pretty ignorant post, I guess.

One thing that I think bears mentioning from your last post is the ramifications it might have on the industry if it prices young gamers out of the market (an assertion I will address only as devil's advocate):

It would unquestionably be a bad thing for RPGs to price themselves out of the reach of "new gamers," but Ptolus is obviously a DM's purchase (in a market that is already heavily DM-purchase driven anyway), and a sophisticated one at that. I'd wholeheartedly agree with you that a 16-year old is unlikely to get full value from Ptolus-- but then I don't think Ptolus (or any campaign setting of this magnitude) is really aimed at a younger crowd. Their exposure to Ptolus will cost them nothing: A veteran GM with the wherewithal to invest $120 in Ptolus will present it to them free of charge.

To put it another way, quite frankly I don't think the average "young gamer" is even getting full value from the $40-45 campaign settings currently available. Young gamers should be players, first, at minimum investment, and grow into GMs who can not only afford campaign materials, but have the experience to make the most of it.


Wulf


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## Sunderstone (Aug 27, 2005)

Psychic Warrior said:
			
		

> Yes - that's exactly what "we" do.  The amount of flawed reasoning being tossed about in this thread is mind boggling.




Flawed reasoning according to you? Some of us have different opinions, it doesnt make it flawed because you say so.



> I fail to grasp what you are up in arms about Sunderstone.  *If you don't want it don't buy it*.  Does this books mere (future) exsistance so infuriate you?  If it was 3 $40 books would that somehow be better?



A. I wont even consider buying it at that price.
B. Yes and No to being infuriated. No in a sense Im glad companies produce High Quality work, alot of products didnt meet some expectations. Yes because $120 is too damn expensive for this kind of product. 
I agree that companies are around to make money, but $120 is way over the top IMO. I am a Monte Cook fan as well, but I dont think that his name carries that kind of weight. We've all seen how good his works are and we all can agree on that at least. There are also many other talented designers out there... Chris Perkins, Sean Reynolds, Bruce Cordell, Greg Vaughan, Dave Noonan, Skip Williams, Andy Collins, Mike Mearls, Lotsa Necromancer Games writers, etc. I dont hold Monte Cook above all of them

My fear is that some fans will not be able to afford it (and some fans will) which kind of hurts our hobby as a whole. Its eliteist in a sense, if you can afford it... you can play in Monte's world. Monte himself stated there wouldnt be a Ptolus light, Ptolus is Ptolus or somesuch, etc (dont remember the exact quote). I wonder how his fans that cant afford it (for whatever reason) feel about it.

The other fear is that the books are already expensive, Id hate to see more companies following suit and making more books with astronomical price tags. Books are bound to increase in price eventually, but they do so steadily at a lower rate. You vote with your wallet, looks like most people here vote for an evolutionary leap in pricing for RPG material.
We must all be very well off.


----------



## Sunderstone (Aug 27, 2005)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> I thought your point was that Monte was price gouging, which means charging more for the product than it's worth.
> 
> Hmm... just read your post again. That's what you said, all right. Twice in just the first two sentences.
> 
> ...




I think we got the gist of what he meant. Attacking his use of words doesnt help anything.
And some say, I was rude.....  :\


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## Sunderstone (Aug 27, 2005)

To add to Wulf and Grimstaff...
Its not just the "young 16 year old gamers" that might not be able to afford it. There are others on a budget as well. Some people have mortgages, car payments, etc. Some people live paycheck to paycheck.


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## Crothian (Aug 27, 2005)

Sunderstone said:
			
		

> To add to Wulf and Grimstaff...
> Its not just the "young 16 year old gamers" that might not be able to afford it. There are others on a budget as well. Some people have mortgages, car payments, etc. Some people live paycheck to paycheck.




this isn't the core books, so everyone is not expected to buiy it.  Can't afford it, don't get it.


----------



## Sunderstone (Aug 27, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> this isn't the core books, so everyone is not expected to buiy it.  Can't afford it, don't get it.




You're missing the point.


----------



## BryonD (Aug 27, 2005)

Sunderstone said:
			
		

> You're missing the point.




Actually they're not the ones missing the point.


----------



## ColonelHardisson (Aug 27, 2005)

Sunderstone said:
			
		

> You're missing the point.




I don't think so. Anyone living paycheck to paycheck can't afford a lot of things. I know, believe me. But I don't get bent out of shape because I can't afford caviar when I go grocery shopping. Is there supposed to be a price cap on game materials so everyone can afford everything? What would be the incentive for someone to do anything with high production values? I can answer my own question, based on my own feelings - there wouldn't be. Besides, is every. single. product. supposed to be priced so they'll attract new gamers?


----------



## Renton (Aug 27, 2005)

Really this is pretty good value for money.  Given what I've paid and am likely to pay on the new Warhammer frp line over the next few months, (c. $40 for main book, $30 each for the Armoury and Bestiary, another $25 for the Middenhaim campaign = $125, more if you buy the GM/character pack or plundered vaults, plus Sigmar's heirs is coming up etc etc) I don't see Monte's price as unreasonable at all.  You're just paying it all upfront rather over six months.  But hey, Monte gives you a layaway option, and preordering nets you even more goodies.  

I likely won't buy it, but out of flavor preference rather than value for money.  To call it price gouging is a real stretch.


----------



## sinmissing (Aug 27, 2005)

Yeah, I don't like Iron Heroes.  It's not very "low magic" at all, or at least not how I'd describe low magic.  If low magic = no fireballs, then yeah, IH is low magic.  If anything Iron Heroes is exlusively Transmutation Magic (in the D&D sense of the word).  Archers, for example, can make useable ladders my shooting arrows into objects (as well as foes!)  It just isn't my style, and after, oh the last three or four MP Products that I bought but never used, I just think that while MP might produce well written high profile products, they just don't work for me.  IH is not bad, it's just not for me, and I serously doubt any MP products ever will be.


----------



## ColonelHardisson (Aug 27, 2005)

Renton said:
			
		

> To call it price gouging is a real stretch.




Agreed. What I suspect it is, is that people feel they can't afford something they like the looks of, so they feel left out. It's not like those who buy it will be forming a secret society so we can smoke big cigars in our luxuriously-appointed game rooms while laughing evilly and looking down on the "little gamers."

Or will we...?


----------



## ColonelHardisson (Aug 27, 2005)

sinmissing said:
			
		

> Yeah, I don't like Iron Heroes.  It's not very "low magic" at all, or at least not how I'd describe low magic.  If low magic = no fireballs, then yeah, IH is low magic.  If anything Iron Heroes is exlusively Transmutation Magic (in the D&D sense of the word).  Archers, for example, can make useable ladders my shooting arrows into objects (as well as foes!)  It just isn't my style, and after, oh the last three or four MP Products that I bought but never used, I just think that while MP might produce well written high profile products, they just don't work for me.  IH is not bad, it's just not for me, and I serously doubt any MP products ever will be.




To be honest, I never saw it described as "low magic." Well, excpet on the part of fans who didn't quite understand what Mike Mearls' design goal was. Rather, it was described as doing away with the D&D PC reliance on magical items for much of their power.


----------



## Renton (Aug 27, 2005)

ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> It's not like those who buy it will be forming a secret society so we can smoke big cigars in our luxuriously-appointed game rooms while laughing evilly and looking down on the "little gamers."
> 
> Or will they...?




Another brandy, Colonel?


----------



## ColonelHardisson (Aug 27, 2005)

Renton said:
			
		

> Another brandy, Colonel?




Why thank you. Here, let me light your cigar with this pesky fifty dollar bill...


----------



## SWBaxter (Aug 27, 2005)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> It would unquestionably be a bad thing for RPGs to price themselves out of the reach of "new gamers," but Ptolus is obviously a DM's purchase (in a market that is already heavily DM-purchase driven anyway), and a sophisticated one at that. I'd wholeheartedly agree with you that a 16-year old is unlikely to get full value from Ptolus-- but then I don't think Ptolus (or any campaign setting of this magnitude) is really aimed at a younger crowd. Their exposure to Ptolus will cost them nothing: A veteran GM with the wherewithal to invest $120 in Ptolus will present it to them free of charge.




On something of a tangent, I'm actually happy to see Monte experimenting with a product clearly not aimed at everyone. I have different gaming needs than a demographically average gamer - I'm older, have been playing longer, have less free time but more disposable income, and am probably more jaded about "vanilla D&D" supplements and settings. Any company that wants to target people like me as a customer is taking a risk, because they're giving up on mass appeal to market for a niche. And of course to try and balance that risk, they're going to have to up the price. I consider that a worthwhile tradeoff.

Will I buy Ptolus? I dunno, it's a year away and I don't make gaming decisions that far in the future. But I do hope that the experiment works, because I'd like to see more designers and publishers focusing their efforts on my particular niche of the gaming market - it's kinda depressing to read about how the publishing industry is struggling, then walk into my local game store and find shelf after shelf of relatively generic products that don't interest me in the slightest.


----------



## Vocenoctum (Aug 27, 2005)

ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> Agreed. What I suspect it is, is that people feel they can't afford something they like the looks of, so they feel left out. It's not like those who buy it will be forming a secret society so we can smoke big cigars in our luxuriously-appointed game rooms while laughing evilly and looking down on the "little gamers."
> 
> Or will we...?




"Membership access to the Delver's Guild website, featuring exclusive new Ptolus content direct from Monte every week until the project's release. These articles are bonus features not found in the book or in any other website or publication. (Site is scheduled to launch in September 2005.)"

SOOO, HAA!


----------



## mythusmage (Aug 27, 2005)

$20.00 down payment, $10.00 a month. Plus shipping and handling. You can't afford that, you're in college.


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## drothgery (Aug 27, 2005)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> I thought your point was that Monte was price gouging, which means charging more for the product than it's worth.




More than that, it's taking an exorbiant profit on something in a market where there's little or no competition, and where choosing to buy nothing isn't a viable option. It's almost impossible to be price gouging in the RPG industry. It's possible to charge too much for things, but that just means that gamers will buy different products, or spend their "fun money" on other hobbies (like video games or novels). And systematic pricing errors might well be bad for the industry in the long run. But as long as there are free SRDs and $5 PDFs, and $20-$40 standard game books, then the odd $60-$120 luxury product isn't a bad thing, any more than the existence of Lexus keeps you from buying a Toyota or taking the bus.


----------



## Vocenoctum (Aug 27, 2005)

Psychic Warrior said:
			
		

> Well - that's great!  More high end products (my most anticipated one is World's Largest City) can  only be a good thing.  Your line of reasoning that low end books won't be published is weak and fatally flawed.




Weak and flawed? COnsidering you've totally misrepresented the "line of reasoning", I don't doubt you consider it so.

I'm not saying someone's going to take a $10 adventure, put a cobbelstone cover on it and call it a Premium Adventure for $25. What I'm saying is, there are plenty of Monte Cook fans that want a Ptolus book, and would gladly pay $40 for a 300 page book without the CD and ton's of stat blocks and cross referencing. They won't have that option, they can either put up $120 or get nothing. (Those that like PDF can buy PDF, but many folks will only buy the print book, regardless of how the PDF market has expanded.)

The book will be a success, financially. If the next time someone wants to  make a MEDIUM range product (not "low end", that's your strawman, not mine.) and decides instead to make it High End Exclusively, it will leave plenty of fans out.

My real point isn't that a high end product is bad, I just think having an exclusively Hgh End product is. Most of the other expensive books in this thread have been Limited Editions that also had a more accessible version.

Like I mentioned previously, I've no interest in the Ptolus setting. Looking at the Pre Order package, I think it's a nice package for what you get, but that still assumes you want all those things you're getting.

To use an analogy, I can preorder the XBox 360 from EBGames, but only in bundles that include games and accessories that I don't want. I can't justify paying that amount of money for stuff I don't need or want. If a more accessible product isn't available, I won't buy it, and I will lose out on buying a product that I want, and which COULD have been produced in a price point I could have bought it for, but instead was raised beyond my grasp.

Clearer now?


----------



## Waylander the Slayer (Aug 27, 2005)

Take a deep breath and keep repeating (Bart Simpsion style):

Gaming products are a LUXURY; Food, water and housing are a necessity.

ergo:

It is OK for someone to price a gaming product at what they think is the right production value. We are a consumer driven society, hence it is the consumer's choice to buy something or not. If you think something is too expensive, there is absolutely no NEED to buy it. There will always be RPG products that range from free to pricy. The price elasticty is being tested by "higher end" products. So what?  Buy what you want, based on your budget. If it is too pricy or will break your budget, then do not buy it. We as consumers do it on a daily basis, be it whether to buy a car or to buy clothes.Enjoy and celebrate the fact that we have a CHOICE, rather than none at all.


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## Vocenoctum (Aug 27, 2005)

Waylander the Slayer said:
			
		

> The price elasticty is being tested by "higher end" products. So what?  Buy what you want, based on your budget. If it is too pricy or will break your budget, then do not buy it. We as consumers do it on a daily basis, be it whether to buy a car or to buy clothes.Enjoy and celebrate the fact that we have a CHOICE, rather than none at all.




Lets say Monte did this as a $60 book, with lesser frills, no CD, etc. Compared to the $120 version, he will make less per book, but sell more books. Lets assume for the same of arguement that he makes the same amount of profit either way.

Wouldn't the $60 book please a lot more fans? The book would out there in stores, folks would still be complaining about pricing, but a lot more would buy it. Making both versions would be better from a customer standpoint since then the Deluxe Ptolus would please the high end market, while Standard Ptolus would please the others.

So, yes as consumers, people have a choice. In this case though, a lot of people that would choose to buy it, are not given an option that gets them the book for what they can reasonable allocate to getting it.


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## Campbell (Aug 27, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Lets say Monte did this as a $60 book, with lesser frills, no CD, etc. Compared to the $120 version, he will make less per book, but sell more books. Lets assume for the same of arguement that he makes the same amount of profit either way.
> 
> Wouldn't the $60 book please a lot more fans? The book would out there in stores, folks would still be complaining about pricing, but a lot more would buy it. Making both versions would be better from a customer standpoint since then the Deluxe Ptolus would please the high end market, while Standard Ptolus would please the others.
> 
> So, yes as consumers, people have a choice. In this case though, a lot of people that would choose to buy it, are not given an option that gets them the book for what they can reasonable allocate to getting it.




Although I cannot speak for Monte, I'd guess that the reason Monte isn't producing a version of Ptolus without all the bells and whistles is because as far as Monte is concerned those bells and whistles are essential features of the work, rather than extras. It seems that an enormous amount of graphic design work has gone into Ptolus in order to create a unique product. 

Even if we ignore the eventual PDF releases, it is important to consider that Ptolus is more than a tool: it is a creative work. While more fans may have preferred it if Monte decided to develope a version of Ptolus without all the bells and whistles, it is entirely possible that for creative reasons Monte doesn't wish to create such a version without features that he might consider essential to the product. 

There is no moral imperative to create lower-end versions of high-end products. I might not buy Ptolus, but I will not feel begrudged because Monte's design goals do not fit my current whims. After all, there are plenty of other products out there to choose from. I do not need Ptolus in much the same way I do not need an XBox 360. There are no victims here.

My tone might be a little harsh. If it is, I apologize.


----------



## DaveMage (Aug 27, 2005)

Unless a poster has access to the costs involved in putting this together, I hardly think they can comment on a what a "scaled-down" version would cost.  Also, to say that more would sell at a lower price is not necessarily true.  I pretty much guarantee you that if the price was set at $60, you'd see the same people bitching that $60 was too high.

Also, I have a feeling that many (though obviously not all) of the bashers on here are merely disappointed that they cannot afford the $120, which I can certainly understand.


----------



## Vocenoctum (Aug 27, 2005)

Campbell said:
			
		

> Although I cannot speak for Monte, I'd guess that the reason Monte isn't producing a version of Ptolus without all the bells and whistles is because as far as Monte is concerned those bells and whistles are essential features of the work, rather than extras. It seems that an enormous amount of graphic design work has gone into Ptolus in order to create a unique product.
> 
> Even if we ignore the eventual PDF releases, it is important to consider that Ptolus is more than a tool: it is a creative work. While more fans may have preferred it if Monte decided to develope a version of Ptolus without all the bells and whistles, it is entirely possible that for creative reasons Monte doesn't wish to create such a version without features that he might consider essential to the product.
> 
> ...



Nyah, not harsh at all. Basically I agree with you that it's Monte Cook's decision. From his standpoint he's building the product he wants to build, and hopefully he makes a profit doing it. Just like the "if D&D died tommorow, your current books still work" thing, RPG's are indeed distractions and someone will not suffer (well, no more than normal Withdrawel symptoms.  for the lack of Ptolus. I'm sure the Prepay Plan will capture a decent amount of those who would otherwise not buy it at launch, though I think it would have done better if delivery was in December instead of Gen Con area.

This doesn't affect me directly, I'm just worried about future products that decide to follow the example. If there's some setting I want, but they make it high-end, then it's there. My other hobby being firearms, I'm not adverse to shelling out cash for what I want, but perceived value and usability does play into it, and frankly a cobblestone book sits on the shelf the same as a soft cover.

Also, power is still out at work, so I've got nothing better to do then sit here at home and respond to clarify what I mean.


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## JRRNeiklot (Aug 27, 2005)

I prsonally, would rather see the product split up.  Say, 6 books for a total of $150-$200.  That way I could pick and choose what parts I wanted.  I could have the campaign setting and  any prestige class feats, yet pass on the adventure, or any other combination.  Plus, flipping through a 600, 800, or wahatever page book just seems tedious.  I have enough trouble finding what I'm looking for in the DMG.


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## Vocenoctum (Aug 27, 2005)

DaveMage said:
			
		

> Unless a poster has access to the costs involved in putting this together, I hardly think they can comment on a what a "scaled-down" version would cost.  Also, to say that more would sell at a lower price is not necessarily true.  I pretty much guarantee you that if the price was set at $60, you'd see the same people bitching that $60 was too high.




I wouldn't "complain" if the price was $60. Even if the price was lower, I'd not buy a Ptolus book, so that excludes me. I'm sure more would sell at a lower price, whether that would earn MORE PROFIT, we can't say.

We can't accurately predict what a scaled down version would cost, unless we had other books to compare it to. There are a decent amount of 400 page books for $40, so figuring $60 for a 600 page one doesn't seem horribly out of order. It's just for arguements sake though.


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## Reynard (Aug 27, 2005)

DaveMage said:
			
		

> I pretty much guarantee you that if the price was set at $60, you'd see the same people bitching that $60 was too high.




Again, because it deserves it.

As to whether this is going to induce other publishers to put out more, high-end products -- it may very well do that.  So what?  or rather, Excellent!  And you know what?  Even if we get two years worth of companies putting out crappy, expensive products, so what?  The market will take care of itself.  After the third such stinker, no one is going to buy them anymore -- unless it is produced by a trustworthy publisher -- and things will normalize.  Some people here are acting like THE END HAS COME for the normal game product.  BS, I say.  i mean, we have more cheaper (and free!) game products now than ever before in the form of PDFs.  Now, we might see more premium products than ever before.  Holy crap!  the game industry suddenly looks like every other industry on the planet!

It wasn't too many years ago that every game book looked and cost about the same (though quality varied).  Is that really what you want?


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## Kanegrundar (Aug 27, 2005)

I think Reynard has it right.  Even if the market gets flooded with high-end expensive books, you'll see the market even out in time.  An occasional $100 + book isn't going to really affect the industry.  I dare say that most D20 publishers (likely most RPG pusblishers in general) couldn't even afford to put out a book like Ptolus, so it's getting worried over nothing.  

Kane


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## philreed (Aug 27, 2005)

I know that there's no way I could afford to spend over a year of my life producing one product (and even if it did I don't have the necessary connections to have any hope of seeing the effort succeed). I think it takes a lot of guts (and hard work) to attempt a book the size of Ptolus and I hope that it's successful.


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## Kanegrundar (Aug 27, 2005)

My thoughts exactly, Phil.  Even if I don't end up buying Ptolus (the pdf option may be the way I go to get it), I hope it works out for Monte seeing as how this is his baby and he is putting a LOT of effort into every facet of it to make it the absolute best book on the market.

Kane


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## WildWeasel (Aug 27, 2005)

JRRNeiklot said:
			
		

> I prsonally, would rather see the product split up.  Say, 6 books for a total of $150-$200.  That way I could pick and choose what parts I wanted.  I could have the campaign setting and  any prestige class feats, yet pass on the adventure, or any other combination.  Plus, flipping through a 600, 800, or wahatever page book just seems tedious.  I have enough trouble finding what I'm looking for in the DMG.




Well, part of what the Ptolus product is going for is that it is being designed for an ease of use and cross referencing not really seen before in gaming books.  It's not 4 or 6 books glued together, but a singular work, tightly integrated and cross referenced.


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## philreed (Aug 27, 2005)

Kanegrundar said:
			
		

> My thoughts exactly, Phil.  Even if I don't end up buying Ptolus (the pdf option may be the way I go to get it), I hope it works out for Monte seeing as how this is his baby and he is putting a LOT of effort into every facet of it to make it the absolute best book on the market.




The sample pages certainly impressed me enough to go ahead and pre-order.


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## Kanegrundar (Aug 27, 2005)

philreed said:
			
		

> The sample pages certainly impressed me enough to go ahead and pre-order.



 I've thought about it.  I'll likely pre-order in the next week or two.  Depends on finances.

Kane


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## Arnwyn (Aug 27, 2005)

Wolv0rine said:
			
		

> So, for everyone who will buy it, are buying it, have ordered it...  what exactly makes an RPG book worth $120... I'm just trying to understand this from a consumer's point of view.



I can answer this for myself:

1) it's a city book - I find cities brutally time-consuming to design, but necessary to do so to make the experience for my players worthwhile.
2) the city is insanely detailed - which is what I want out of a city book
3) it's easily insertable into my long-running FR campaign (it's a city, after all)
4) it sounds very interesting (city + dungeon + other mentioned things that just sound cool)
5) pagecount (including additional material on the CD on _top_ of the massive pagecount)
6) utilitarian additions (coloring, indexing, footnotes, "mnemonic" stuff, etc)
7) d20


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## sinmissing (Aug 27, 2005)

ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> To be honest, I never saw it described as "low magic." Well, excpet on the part of fans who didn't quite understand what Mike Mearls' design goal was. Rather, it was described as doing away with the D&D PC reliance on magical items for much of their power.




You know, you are probably right.  My expectations were divergent from the author's design goals.  - nevertheless, I'm a consumer of a variety of game material from high-fantasy to recreationism, and I've yet to find a MP product that appeals to me.  - strike that, I did like that alternate bard idea (in theory)

I'll not derail this thread anymore regarding IH, and while I completely agree with you regarding my mistaken expectations, I feel there is no need to discuss this further here.

On a completely side note, I wouldn't mind RPG authors making better money, and if MP manages to raise the bar so that some of *my personal favorite* authors make the money they deserve, I'm all for paying a little more.  The RPG hobby has evolved beyond the flimsy type-written text, and almost "Mom's Basement" level of production values, I think the pay scale should change with the times.


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## Wulf Ratbane (Aug 27, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> The book will be a success, financially. If the next time someone wants to  make a MEDIUM range product (not "low end", that's your strawman, not mine.) and decides instead to make it High End Exclusively, it will leave plenty of fans out.




This product is not for you; other high end products may not be for you either; but you can rest assured that someone will be around to meet your needs and accept your money.

As others have said, "The market will take care of itself."


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## tetsujin28 (Aug 28, 2005)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> You have any idea what it costs to fill 600+ pages with color artwork? _Quality_ color artwork? Including cartography?



Wulf, you nailed it. All this whining about it being too expensive is from people who really haven't done the math. When you add in all the stuff from the pre-order, you're getting *1100* pages. That comes out to $.11 per page. Cheap. As. Chips.


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## tetsujin28 (Aug 28, 2005)

ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> Agreed. What I suspect it is, is that people feel they can't afford something they like the looks of, so they feel left out. It's not like those who buy it will be forming a secret society so we can smoke big cigars in our luxuriously-appointed game rooms while laughing evilly and looking down on the "little gamers."
> 
> Or will we...?



I'm all for that. We can all drive our Ferraris, too!


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## tetsujin28 (Aug 28, 2005)

mythusmage said:
			
		

> $20.00 down payment, $10.00 a month. Plus shipping and handling. You can't afford that, you're in college.



Heck, _I'm_ in college and can afford it. I buy two beers per month fewer than normal. Done.


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## Vocenoctum (Aug 28, 2005)

tetsujin28 said:
			
		

> Wulf, you nailed it. All this whining about it being too expensive is from people who really haven't done the math. When you add in all the stuff from the pre-order, you're getting *1100* pages. That comes out to $.11 per page. Cheap. As. Chips.




That's counting such things as Banewarrens though, there's no need to falsely inflate the value of the item. It's pretty well established that it's not geared towards Per Word rate.


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## SWBaxter (Aug 28, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Lets say Monte did this as a $60 book, with lesser frills, no CD, etc. Compared to the $120 version, he will make less per book, but sell more books. Lets assume for the same of arguement that he makes the same amount of profit either way.




Let's not, since we don't have anything other than vague wishful thinking on which to base this assumption. Monte has a product he wants to publish, presumably he actually knows how much it'd cost to put it out in various formats, let's just assume some basic level of competence on his part and assume he's chosen the route that he believes will give him the best combination of market penetration and return on investment, then go from there.


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## Vocenoctum (Aug 28, 2005)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> This product is not for you; other high end products may not be for you either; but you can rest assured that someone will be around to meet your needs and accept your money.
> 
> As others have said, "The market will take care of itself."



I'm still not sure why my point is not clear here, but are you saying that this product is not made for fans of Ptolus/Monte Cooks? Basically, if you can't afford the book, you're not meant to have the book?

If this product were not geared as a "high end" product, there are plenty of folks that would buy it that won't buy it as a "high end" product. Ah well.


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## IronWolf (Aug 28, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> That's counting such things as Banewarrens though, there's no need to falsely inflate the value of the item.




Why is the inclusion of Banewarrens valueless?


----------



## Vocenoctum (Aug 28, 2005)

SWBaxter said:
			
		

> Let's not, since we don't have anything other than vague wishful thinking on which to base this assumption. Monte has a product he wants to publish, presumably he actually knows how much it'd cost to put it out in various formats, let's just assume some basic level of competence on his part and assume he's chosen the route that he believes will give him the best combination of market penetration and return on investment, then go from there.





I'm going from the assumption that this book is a labor of love. Monte Cook wants Ptolus designed to be the way it is. I'm sure he wants the book to profit for all involved, but that didn't seem to be the design goal he had in mind, from what I've read of his.


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## Vocenoctum (Aug 28, 2005)

IronWolf said:
			
		

> Why is the inclusion of Banewarrens valueless?



Adding the PDF for a product from years ago? I'd say it's a nice addition, but it's not a part of the purchase price.


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## IronWolf (Aug 28, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> I'd say it's a nice addition, but it's not a part of the purchase price.




Part of the purchase price or not, it being a "nice addition" will add value to the whole package to many.  Take for instance me.  I have heard many good things about Banewarrens, but have never picked it up.  To hear it is included with it (PDF form or other, makes no difference to me) adds value to the package deal, even if it is an extra.


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## Vocenoctum (Aug 28, 2005)

IronWolf said:
			
		

> Part of the purchase price or not, it being a "nice addition" will add value to the whole package to many.  Take for instance me.  I have heard many good things about Banewarrens, but have never picked it up.  To hear it is included with it (PDF form or other, makes no difference to me) adds value to the package deal, even if it is an extra.




Right, it's a nice addition and sales incentive. (I have it somewhere in the Closet O' Useless Tomes.) It's not even 3.5, is it? Perhaps the PDF was updated at some point, I didn't follow it after purchase.
I should have said "it's not part of the page count", but since someone will argue that also, it doesn't really matter.


----------



## IronWolf (Aug 28, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Right, it's a nice addition and sales incentive. (I have it somewhere in the Closet O' Useless Tomes.) It's not even 3.5, is it? Perhaps the PDF was updated at some point, I didn't follow it after purchase.
> I should have said "it's not part of the page count", but since someone will argue that also, it doesn't really matter.




  I'd give you the "not part of the page count" argument.  As for it being 3.5, I don't think so, but I also heard rumor it was being looked at to see if it really needed to be updated to 3.5 or if it could remain as is.  So I think it is at least being taken in consideration (again, heard second hand, so not sure of the validity of this).


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## Crothian (Aug 28, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Adding the PDF for a product from years ago? I'd say it's a nice addition, but it's not a part of the purchase price.




Just because the product is a few years old has little bearing.  On these boards it is still a highly recomended module.  Hmm, I take that back being an older module that is still being recomended on these boards proves that is has stood up against the test of time and even after 3 or so years people have not replaced it with some new module.  I would say then that having it included is a very nice bonus.


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## DaveMage (Aug 28, 2005)

IronWolf said:
			
		

> I'd give you the "not part of the page count" argument.  As for it being 3.5, I don't think so, but I also heard rumor it was being looked at to see if it really needed to be updated to 3.5 or if it could remain as is.  So I think it is at least being taken in consideration (again, heard second hand, so not sure of the validity of this).




Ironwolf: See post #204.  Some guy named Monte started that rumor...


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## IronWolf (Aug 28, 2005)

DaveMage said:
			
		

> Ironwolf: See post #204.  Some guy named Monte started that rumor...




  

Teach me to sleep through the middle of 300+ post threads!  I guess not only is it good news Monte is doing that *but* my friend may be a more reliable source of information than I thought!


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## romp (Aug 28, 2005)

philreed said:
			
		

> I know that there's no way I could afford to spend over a year of my life producing one product (and even if it did I don't have the necessary connections to have any hope of seeing the effort succeed). I think it takes a lot of guts (and hard work) to attempt a book the size of Ptolus and I hope that it's successful.




During the discussion of the "mysterious announcement" hype leading up to the offical announcement of Ptolus, it was pointed out that this was why they hired Mike Mearls, i.e. to produce material for Malhavoc while Monte devoted time to Ptolus. This lead to Iron Heroes and its planned books. Hopefully IH is not dead (in terms of continued support) now that Mearls has left and Monte announces his baby to the world.


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## Wulf Ratbane (Aug 28, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> I'm still not sure why my point is not clear here, but are you saying that this product is not made for fans of Ptolus/Monte Cooks? Basically, if you can't afford the book, you're not meant to have the book?




That's exactly right. Welcome to life.

In addition to RPG's, I'm also a fan of poker, strip clubs, paintball, filet mignon, and Caribbean cruises.

Unfortunately I can't enjoy any of them as often as I'd like.

And hey! As long as you're bitching, get on the horn with Richard Branson and get him to reduce the cost of that trip to the moon. I don't have $100 million to blow and it's just not fair. They're really leaving a lot of us fans of space travel out in the cold with that price. Seems like he'd be better off charging $1 a trip and selling it to 100 million fans.


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## Lonely Tylenol (Aug 28, 2005)

Sunderstone said:
			
		

> My fear is that some fans will not be able to afford it (and some fans will) which kind of hurts our hobby as a whole. Its eliteist in a sense, if you can afford it... you can play in Monte's world. Monte himself stated there wouldnt be a Ptolus light, Ptolus is Ptolus or somesuch, etc (dont remember the exact quote). I wonder how his fans that cant afford it (for whatever reason) feel about it.




Why should all gamers be able to afford all gaming products?  Again, the Ferrari metaphor.  You can buy a $10 000 car or a $100 000 car.  Either one will get you to work and back.  Is it somehow unfair to "car fans" that they can't afford the $100 000 car?  Do you not see how ridiculous this line of reasoning is?  The hole in the analogy is that you can't download a .pdf of a Ferrari for half the price and most if not all (if not more) functionality, but you can download a Ptolus .pdf with this quality.

Why should gamers care that a particular product or small handful of products is priced higher than they're willing to pay?  I see no reason to believe that WotC (to name an example company) is going to scrap their line of (more or less) affordable books in favour of deluxe pagecount monoliths that only the rich gamers can afford, considering that their main goal is to get more new young gamers into the hobby.  That would be silly.  People whose job is to make money for other, more severe people do not do silly things (more than once).

There is a market share for expensive books.  This does not mean that suddenly there will only be expensive books, or that everyone has a right to those books.  The market will attempt to sell as many books at each price increment as the consumers will buy.  I suspect that inexpensive books will sell better, but expensive books will chip out their own little niche too.


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## Vocenoctum (Aug 28, 2005)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> That's exactly right. Welcome to life.
> 
> In addition to RPG's, I'm also a fan of poker, strip clubs, paintball, filet mignon, and Caribbean cruises.
> 
> ...



You know, that's quite a lot I've been called either "bitching" or "whining". In case you missed a clue, I couldn't care less about Ptolus. I'm talking about a product that could have been made 2 ways, even both (like most Limited Edition's) and the decisions that got it there.

RPG's are not Ferrarri's. If you don't see that there's something to "well, screw you, this product isn't meant for a gamer, it's meant only for a select few" in this industry, then more's the pity really. I don't believe I've been impolite throughout, and I've tried to illustrate my point before, and it's being ignored as "whining" or "bitching". I'm not sure why I expected a discussion to go any differently, but don't act like I'm complaining that Ptolus is $120.

Going back to the XBox 360 example. Microsoft can make their game console inaccessible to plenty of gamers, it's their choice of how to market. The (EBgames preorder) bundles are values for what they are, but they're not truely values to those that want something less. Ptolus is a fine value for what it is, but it's excluding fans THAT IT DOESN'T HAVE TO!

Malhavok is a business, and must strive for profitability, but the gamers shouldn't be neglected in the equation.


----------



## mythusmage (Aug 28, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> You know, that's quite a lot I've been called either "bitching" or "whining". In case you missed a clue, I couldn't care less about Ptolus.




Then why are you going on about it?



			
				Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Ptolus is a fine value for what it is, but it's excluding fans THAT IT DOESN'T HAVE TO!




It's Monte's toy, Monte can do whatever he feels like with it. I've read the descriptions and seen the examples. Furthermore, I trust Monte to do right by the product. Having about a year to find out more is a bonus. On September 1st I'm making the down payment.

Want a cheaper alternative? Buy the damn PDFs when they're available. Hell, I may just get those as well, so I'll have something I can print as player hand outs.

It was Monte's decision to publish *Ptolus* as he is, and I think he's capable of making such decisions.


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## WildWeasel (Aug 28, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> . Ptolus is a fine value for what it is, but it's excluding fans THAT IT DOESN'T HAVE TO!
> 
> Malhavok is a business, and must strive for profitability, but the gamers shouldn't be neglected in the equation.




Nor does it HAVE to include anyone.  It is perfectly OK to market to a single market segment. There is nothing that says gamers are entitled to being able to afford any conceivable game product.

And I doubt that a $60 stripped-down unfancy Ptolus would be all that worthwhile.  A lot of the "bells and whistles" are actually part of the layout design to improve the functionality and usability of such a large amount of content.


----------



## DevoutlyApathetic (Aug 28, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> RPG's are not Ferrarri's. If you don't see that there's something to "well, screw you, this product isn't meant for a gamer, it's meant only for a select few" in this industry, then more's the pity really. I don't believe I've been impolite throughout, and I've tried to illustrate my point before, and it's being ignored as "whining" or "bitching". I'm not sure why I expected a discussion to go any differently, but don't act like I'm complaining that Ptolus is $120.




I think the point is that your assumption that 'gamer=unwilling to spend $120' is very flawed.  I think most of us have grown up and accepted the fact that creative production deserves monetary compensation.  Monte is putting together an excellant product that requires a high price tag for him to recieve just compensation for his efforts.



> Going back to the XBox 360 example. Microsoft can make their game console inaccessible to plenty of gamers, it's their choice of how to market. The (EBgames preorder) bundles are values for what they are, but they're not truely values to those that want something less. Ptolus is a fine value for what it is, but it's excluding fans THAT IT DOESN'T HAVE TO!




What?  None of the EB bundles are anything more than price gougery.  They all have been recieved horribly by the populace of most VG boards and have no especial value or package price reduction.

Ironically Microsoft offering a cheaper version of the Xbox360 (which neatly paralells what you'd like Monte to do) has gotten them crucified in the gaming press.



> Malhavok is a business, and must strive for profitability, but the gamers shouldn't be neglected in the equation.




I see a large number around here who are quite pleased with Monte's version of neglect.


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## Wolv0rine (Aug 28, 2005)

Wow.  I mean just...  wow.

I feel for poor Vocenoctum, whether or not I agree with any of his points.  He's been treated rudely, he's been all but flamed, and not a single person has stopped and said a word about it.  Now don't get me wrong, all things being equal I've had much more heated discussions (and enjoyed them), but the fact remains that I've seen people get jumped on by Mods around here for less.  And I know for a singular fact that if someone were speaking that way to someone who was more popular they'd have been shut down.  I've seen it happen.  And no, I will not scour through dozens of forum pages to 'prove it'.  I don't have that kind of free time.

But seriously, he hasn't been snide or nasty, he's repeatedly tried to make a point as he sees it.  And he's been responded to as if he were trying to preach philosophy from the short bus.  He may be right, he may be terribly wrong, but if he came into the thread and started talking about the idiocy of anyone willing to pay $120 for a book that could have been produced at a fraction of the cost using less art, less expensive art, B&W art, a normal cover, less expensive paper, and whatnot (just to show how it _could_ have been cheaper without knowing it's exact production costs, since it's come up a few times, regardless of whether it's for us to say it _should_ have been) and how he can't believe the mindless lemmings shuffle lockstepping along behind the Monte name with their brains in their wallets extended with a smile...  People would jump his arse for it.  
But we (and by we I mean Not Me) can make fun of him and take things to outrageous extremes (why is it that as soon as a topic or sub-topic arises that has to do with people who are cheesed off because something they'd like to be able to spend their money on is priced out of their price range, it's so popular to immediately jump to the farthest extreme an start acting as if some accusation of secret societies and hidden plush extravagant leisure dens with servants and evil moustache-twisting villains had been made?  I've been wondering about that for years now), and say he's "bitching" and "whining" and essentially tell him that unless he's ready to bow before the common opinion he can go find somewhere else to be.

I just don't know, people.  It wouldn't bother me in the slightest if it was okay for everyone to be treated that way.  It really wouldn't.

On another note, I hope at least half of you realize that the ferarri arguement is entirely apples & oranges.  You can't justifiably try to compare an culturally  pervasive industry (the automotive industry) in which practically everyone is a customer to a niche market with a relatively minute customer base.  The arguements about price escalation have merit, on a general basis.  Let's take that automotive industry, shall we?
When it began, the automobile was a luxury (it still is really, you've got feet, you don't *NEED* a car), and it was priced accordingly.  It was a toy for rich people, basically.  Now jump forward to now, and despite the fact that it's generally assumed that every household _Requires_ at least one car, we still find it completely acceptable that even a cheap car costs in the range of $10,000?  That's Ten Thousand Dollars.  I've seen small houses that cost barely more than that for gods sake.  We're not talking about every McDonalds worker owning a ferarri here, we're talking about everyone being able to own a car At All.  Which it is generally assumed most everyone will.  The automotive industry knows good and well that few people are willing to walk to and from work, and that they've got society by and large by the shorthairs.  They charge whatever they want.  And that luxury has become seen as a neccessity.  

I'm not crying Doomesday, I'm just pointing out that it's not a trite notion that a rising industry standard pricetag based on evidence that some people will pay it could affect this rather small industry.  And faster than a larger industry.  And yes the industry may even itself out 'eventually' in such a case, but IN such a case how many gamers would have left it long before that happened?  That would leave you with a fraction of the pre-existing gamers (consumers, customers), an industry with a bad reputation for outrageous prices for a hobby, and few if any new gamers willing to test the waters of what they have heard was a very, very expensive hobby.  Sure the industry would stabilize itself; but how long would that take, and how long would it take to recover from it?  It's a worse case scenario, obviously.  But it's not like it couldn't happen just the same.

I mean gods, someone has to point out that just because your stance is popular, backed by all the cool people, and delivered like the Ten Commandments doesn't mean that it's Absolute.  We're talking about extremely tenebrous and amorphous conditions and cause-and-effects.  None of us can say what Will hapen, and the odds of any predictions on what's Likely to happen being accurate decrease in relation to how far in the future we try to auger.

And that's about all I have to say on that matter.  I just felt it needed saying.


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## TwistedBishop (Aug 28, 2005)

DevoutlyApathetic said:
			
		

> I think the point is that your assumption that 'gamer=unwilling to spend $120' is very flawed.  I think most of us have grown up and accepted the fact that creative production deserves monetary compensation.  Monte is putting together an excellant product that requires a high price tag for him to recieve just compensation for his efforts.




Gamers willing to spend $120 is quite possible.  Gamers willing to spend double the cost of a product, just to get a lot of meaningless aesthetics...not so much.  How well did that Premium Edition Player's Handbook sell?  Would you expect no complaints if Wizards had ONLY released that version of the PHB when it launched 3E?  




			
				DevoutlyApathetic said:
			
		

> What?  None of the EB bundles are anything more than price gougery.  They all have been recieved horribly by the populace of most VG boards and have no especial value or package price reduction.




Incorrect.  Every bundle at EBGames is lower priced than buying the items individually.  It's not a huge savings....but it's more than throwing a .pdf version of a long outdated adventure module onto a CD.



			
				DevoutlyApathetic said:
			
		

> Ironically Microsoft offering a cheaper version of the Xbox360 (which neatly paralells what you'd like Monte to do) has gotten them crucified in the gaming press.




Incorrect again.  The complaints on the Core System revolve entirely around the missing HDD.  To compare it to Ptolus, Cook would have to cut out a crucial part of the book to make it at all similar.  Taking off a bunch of visually pleasing frills, nope, doesn't equate. If the only difference between the Core System and the Premium System was the chrome edging, then you'd see no complaints.


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## nerfherder (Aug 28, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> RPG's are not Ferrarri's. If you don't see that there's something to "well, screw you, this product isn't meant for a gamer, it's meant only for a select few" in this industry, then more's the pity really.



Could you explain why the car analogy doesn't work, please?

On the face of it, it looks like a reasonable analogy.

I've just bought a car.  I'm a fan of sports cars, and I really wanted to buy something special (a Porsche Boxster or Honda S2000).  I don't *need* a car - there's public transport here - but it is nice to have.  I could have bought something for a fraction of that price, and it would have got me from A to B warm, dry and safe.  But I like sports cars.  I follow Formula 1, and I've wanted a Porsche since I was a teenager.

So, I work through my finances and come to the conclusion that a Boxster is just too much.  Darn you Porsche for not producing cars at half the price so that your fans can buy them!  Instead, I bought a Honda Civic Type-R which is racey, and I will still have fun with.

Now, to me, both a sports or sporty car and a RPG campaign product are luxury items.  You can survive without a car, or with a much, much cheaper car.  Same as you can make up your own campaign, or buy something fairly cheap (maybe a PDF).  A Type-R is like the FR campaign - a bit more expensive.  And the Porsche is like the Ptolus campaign.

Now no analogy is perfect, so could you please explain why the *main points* are different?

Cheers,
Liam


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## Reynard (Aug 28, 2005)

TwistedBishop said:
			
		

> Gamers willing to spend $120 is quite possible.  Gamers willing to spend double the cost of a product, just to get a lot of meaningless aesthetics...not so much.
> >snip<
> Incorrect again.  The complaints on the Core System revolve entirely around the missing HDD.  To compare it to Ptolus, Cook would have to cut out a crucial part of the book to make it at all similar.  Taking off a bunch of visually pleasing frills, nope, doesn't equate. If the only difference between the Core System and the Premium System was the chrome edging, then you'd see no complaints.




The flaw here is the belief that the design and aesthetics of the product are not integral to the product.  i know that some gamers don't understand this, but the words and rules are not everything.  The layout of a book, how the art evokes the setting, the maps and diagrams all have an important role to play in a complete product.  This isn't 1974.  The presentation of a product has a direct impact on both its functionality and its sales.

That monte Cook has decided to use art and design to dramatically increase the value (yes, value) of his book is comendable.  I am very interested to see if other publishers take note and realize (finally) that a book can be both pretty and functional.


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## Barak (Aug 28, 2005)

Bah.  Even disregarding PDFs (which I sorta do, as PDFs don't really work for me), it's not like you have to pay 120$ or never have it.  I was really interested in the WLD, but 100$ was too much for me (not for the product, mind you, but for my finances).  Well, I waited a bit, and got it for 45$, including shipping, off Amazon.  You really think there won't be a cheaper way of getting Ptolus, you're out of it.


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## Wulf Ratbane (Aug 28, 2005)

Wolv0rine said:
			
		

> Now jump forward to now, and despite the fact that it's generally assumed that every household _Requires_ at least one car, we still find it completely acceptable that even a cheap car costs in the range of $10,000? The automotive industry knows good and well that few people are willing to walk to and from work, and that they've got society by and large by the shorthairs.  They charge whatever they want.  And that luxury has become seen as a neccessity.




Wow. Just... wow.

So, on the one hand, we have a theory that all automobile manufacturers, domestic and foreign, are raking in huge profits by colluding together to artificially inflate the price of an automobile.

On the other hand, we have a theory that there is a minimum cost to produce an automobile, given materials, labor, shipping, and tariffs; and that car manufacturers do everything in their power to produce inexpensive (and yet still reliable) vehicles-- even going so far as to reduce their own profits by offering sales incentives-- because they are in _desperate_ competition against other manufacturers.

Perhaps later I will find the time to address the "Cars are a luxury, everybody can walk to work," corrolary, but for the moment I... am... speechless.


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## BryonD (Aug 28, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Malhavok is a business, and must strive for profitability, but the gamers shouldn't be neglected in the equation.



This part right here undermines all your claims of unfair treatment.

You are imposing two statements of demand onto a situation where you don't have the slightest authority to demand them.  You can't try to hide high horse proclamations of moral authority in the midst of faux humble words.  And when you act amazed that people don't agree, much less comply, with your personal value demands, then that comes off as "whiny" and "bitchy".

Who are you to say that Malhavok can not neglect "the gamers"?  Heck, who are you to even say that "the gamers" are even the target audience?  If they want to market their book at wealthy art lovers who've never seen a D20, that's their call.  And you opinion to the contrary carries exactly zero authority, regardless of how self-certain you may be.

And it is even false to say they must strive for profitability.  If Monte wants to use his business as a vehicle to indulge in personal pet project, then he can do that.  Again, your opinion of what a business "must" do has exactly 100% less meaning than you think.

If your going to jump out and start telling other people what they can and can not do with their own free choices, then you are going to get criticized for it.  If you can't handle that, then maybe you should consider it before you post.


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## tetsujin28 (Aug 28, 2005)

edited due to next post


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## tetsujin28 (Aug 28, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> You know, that's quite a lot I've been called either "bitching" or "whining". In case you missed a clue, I couldn't care less about Ptolus.



The classic mark of trolling: "You know, I really, really don't care about this product. I really don't. But I'm going to bitch and whine and complain and moan about how much _you shouldn't either_!"

Where's that rolleyes smiley when you really need him?


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## Waylander the Slayer (Aug 28, 2005)

Again, take a deep breath and repeart after me:


RPG's are a luxury, not a necessity.

The car analogy is perfectly apt. The last time i checked, we live in a FREE MARKET society. Demand drives supply and price. A manufacturer, unless an Oligopoly or a monopoly is restricted in what they can do in regard to charging whatever they want for a product. Further, industries are regulated against in being a monopoly etc. I found the XBOX comparison to be funny since microsoft is one of the few monopolies and guess what? they undercut the "small guy" by maintaining a lower price point because they don't need an intially high profit margin  for their secondary product lines due to the product positioning of Windowsand the tertierary products attached with it (MS Office). This is a good example of a company trying to create a "Barrier of Entry."

If someone here can highlight how Malhavok is  an Oligopoly or Monopoly or have unique market positioning based on which they are pricing whatever they want to regardless of consumer preference please do so. Products have varying price elasticity. Here are several other analogies outside of cars.

Dinnerware: Mikasa/Corning/non brand name product
Bags: Prada/Gucci/ Kenneth Cole/ Krada (no name brad)
Cereal: Smart Start/Special K/ Corn Flakes (all put out by kellogs, just to highlight how a GOOD company creates market positioning in all the different price segments of the market).
Coffee (an oligopoly if not a monopoly): Starbucks/Dunkin Donuts (note the pricing model of Starbucks).

I could provide more examples if need be. As always, people have a CHOICE in the RPG market. You can easily pick up a Phil Reed (just trying to highlight an analogy Phil  product which is much cheaper or a Malhavoc product or a free product (there are plenty out there). Can Malhavoc charge what Phil charges and make a net profit or even break even? Does anyone have the Contribution Margin and Break even point for these products? Note that you NEED to exceed your fixed costs. So what are the fixed and variable costs on a product? Let us see and how do they compare?:

FIXED COST:

Employee pay
Distribution Cost.
incurred overhead (based on allocation methodology..i.e you can appropotion costs of utilities etc. to different product line or incurr them in a lump amount.

VARIABLE:

Material cost (net cost will vary based on units produced...more complex, you could have both fixed and variable elements here).
Printing expenses

I believe (purely a guess) that most costs in the industry are fixed. So how is Phil able to produce a product at such a low cost- less fixed cost. i.e very few "employees" (probably himself and a few freelancers where needed) and by producing the product in an inexpensive medium where he does not incur high manufacturing costs (print vs. pdf).

Does Malhavoc incurr the same costs for this product? or are his overheads higher? Just a meander through the artists' list, the credits listed, the production value, the "new binding used" etc. should give one a very good idea. Also, does this have the same cost element as a $40 book (which is common and hypotheticaly the medium price range). There are plenty of samples of this out there such as the previews for "Thieves World" or Arcania Unearthed etc. If one examines the samples for these, to that of Plotus, there is a distinct difference in both Quality and Quantity. Note, that the higher page count and all the "frills" also is making this a much more expensive product to produce. 

So it is both practical and sensible -Malhavoc does need to remain solvent and be able to pay it's employees and give those in charge a decent living, unless of course the argument is to the contrary (i.e produce a product, charge an incorrect price, go belly up and not pay the freelancers), or that the product is "too expensive" from an individual point of view (This product is out or my price range and the company is at fault for that regardless of the economics involved). Note that no one is ripping "you" off or pricing anyone "out of the market" as the market pricing goes from free to $120.Are there products an individual cannot afford? of course (unless someone wants to consider communism or socialism as a viable living alternative). But do we have a choice? absolutely!!!!

As always, celebrate the fact that you have a choice and that there are so many different and variant products that cover all segments of the market (think back to the old TSR days).


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## Numion (Aug 28, 2005)

It's a fact (maybe a sad fact) in a capitalistic world that if something is priced out of your means, you're not in the target audience, and the product just isn't meant for you. 

Gamers are traditionally striving more for equality in everything (maybe many gamers felt they got the short stick in school social hierarchy, and it stems from that), which is a good thing, but will result in conflicts when reality happens.


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## Psychic Warrior (Aug 28, 2005)

Sunderstone said:
			
		

> Flawed reasoning according to you? Some of us have different opinions, it doesnt make it flawed because you say so.




You reason that if Ptolus is made other game companies will follow suit and soon no products will be produced at a low price point.  That is, simply, flawed.  You start from an unreasonable assuption and proceed to an incorrect conclusion.  just because it is an opinion doesn't mean it is automatically valid or correct.



> A. I wont even consider buying it at that price.




Ok - so why are you upset again?  If the book was 3 $40 books would that be OK?  (You ignored this once already I assume the answer is yes).



> B. Yes and No to being infuriated. No in a sense Im glad companies produce High Quality work, alot of products didnt meet some expectations. Yes because $120 is too damn expensive for this kind of product.
> I agree that companies are around to make money, but $120 is way over the top IMO. I am a Monte Cook fan as well, but I dont think that his name carries that kind of weight. We've all seen how good his works are and we all can agree on that at least. There are also many other talented designers out there... Chris Perkins, Sean Reynolds, Bruce Cordell, Greg Vaughan, Dave Noonan, Skip Williams, Andy Collins, Mike Mearls, Lotsa Necromancer Games writers, etc. I dont hold Monte Cook above all of them




I'm not a Monte Cook fan so maybe I don't have the emtional baggage invested in this product.  Yes you certainly have learned a lot of designers names.  What was the point of this part of your post again? 


> My fear is that some fans will not be able to afford it (and some fans will) which kind of hurts our hobby as a whole. Its eliteist in a sense, if you can afford it... you can play in Monte's world. Monte himself stated there wouldnt be a Ptolus light, Ptolus is Ptolus or somesuch, etc (dont remember the exact quote). I wonder how his fans that cant afford it (for whatever reason) feel about it.




Oh boo-hoo.  Your concerned not everyone can afford it?  Really?!  Can everyone afford the deluxe version of Lord of the Rings (with the colour plates, bookmark ribbon and all appendices) it goes for about $120 around these parts.  Should its price be lowered because the guy at the local 7-11 can afford it.  I don't see it as eliteist - just something called capitialism.  Moan and rail all you like about Monte "excluding" the poor, poor gamers of the world but this arguement doesn't hold any water.


> The other fear is that the books are already expensive, Id hate to see more companies following suit and making more books with astronomical price tags. Books are bound to increase in price eventually, but they do so steadily at a lower rate. You vote with your wallet, looks like most people here vote for an evolutionary leap in pricing for RPG material.
> We must all be very well off.




I find it very difficult to believe that we are suddenly going to see an end to cheaper products because Monte Cook brought out Ptolus.  I find it so hard to believe in fact, that I'm afraid this discussion is pretty much pointless.


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## Pielorinho (Aug 28, 2005)

Waylander the Slayer said:
			
		

> take a deep breath




*Moderator's Notes*:

Excellent advice for everybody.  Take a deep breath and step back from this discussion for a moment, please, to review the forum's rules.  Once you've done so, please read the rest of this post.

First, if you're wondering where the rollseyes smiley meant, that's a sure sign that your post needs to have some vitriol edited away.  The rollseyes smiley was removed because it conveys a rudeness inappropriate to these boards.

Second, accusations of whining and bitching are inappropriate for these forums.  Please stop.

Third, if people disagree with you in a discussion, it's almost never a good idea to tell them that they "just don't get it."

Fourth, discussions of the merits of capitalism are forbidden under our "no politics" rule.  If you find that your advocacy of, or condemnation of, a publisher hinges on your advocacy of or condemnation of the free market, you're entering territory beyond what these boards can support.

Even when your opponent in a debate is obviously a butthead*, you need to maintain at least a semblance of courtesy, civility, and respect toward your opponent.  If you're finding yourself unable to do that in this or any other thread, the best thing to do is to say out loud, "What a butthead!" and then go read another thread instead.

If you have any questions or rebuttals of this post, please report the post and list your questions/rebuttals in the report field.

Thanks!
Daniel/Pielorinho

* Obvious, of course, to you; consider what may be obvious to your opponent *about* you.


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## Vocenoctum (Aug 28, 2005)

[edited out explanation of the motives of this post]
The topic of RPG pricing came up, and it was put forth that Monte Cook may have raised the pricing bar. Others said "the market will correct it".
I said  to the effect of "I'm not worried about Ptolus, but at some point a product I might want, that would have been a medium range (which, actually, is a misnomer, since it's the "old" high range of 40-60 I'm talking about) product might instead be produced as an exclusively High Range (100+) product, and I will lose out on a product I want because of frills I don't want.

Ptolus is Monte's baby, he can produce it as he sees fit, and I'm sure it will be profitable for him. (Especially the payment option, that'll get a few people that wouldn't spend 120 at once) At some point, someone will see that it was profitable, and similar products may come through that are just there for the price point. (As demonstrated by the overabundance of Hardcovers in the market, to justify a higher price, you add stuff until it's considered a value for that price.)
[edited out summary of argument over terms like "whining."  Vonenoctum, please see the post above yours, and email me or report the post if you have any questions on it.--Pielorinho]


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## Vocenoctum (Aug 28, 2005)

edit:  Vonenoctum, please see my notes above, and do not post further discussion about the issue of who's made what accusations against whom.  THanks!--Pielorinho


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## Dinkeldog (Aug 28, 2005)

Okay, Daniel beat me to an initial posting here, but here's an additional moderator's note:

Responding to a post before the note does not excuse behavior after the note.  From this point on, expect everyone has as fine a motive in posting as you do.  

As for me, I was looking forward to Ptolus, but as a full-time student, it's going to be a much harder sell now.  The other option of 3 separate PDFs might cover me, though.  I need to do more research over at Monte's site.


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## Pielorinho (Aug 28, 2005)

Posting as a member, not as a moderator:

I've got nothing against high-end luxury products, whether they're games or caviar.  I'm just not in a position to purchase either of them.  I'll probably flip through Ptolus at GenCon, and I'd suggest Malhavoc provide another luxury add-on for the books:  a droolguard. 

Daniel


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## Vocenoctum (Aug 28, 2005)

nerfherder said:
			
		

> Could you explain why the car analogy doesn't work, please?
> 
> On the face of it, it looks like a reasonable analogy.



Can you explain why the XBox 360 Bundles analogy doesn't work? It seems like folks only want to use their viewpoint without seeing the other side...

But really, here's why I don't see the car analogy as really important. A car is generally regarded as a necessity, though it's not. Books aren't, so it's entirely up to the purchase and it's percieved value. Car prices are highly competitive in fixed catagories, where RPG prices aren't. Plenty of cars are sold in both luxury models and normal models, whereas Ptolus isn't. A Ferrarri performs differently than a lower model car. In many cases, having that luxury car is the point of that luxury car. ("I spent $100,000 so people would know I could spend $100,000 on a car.") 

There are some similarities, but on the whole I find comparing Ptolus to a Ferrari to be off base.




> Now, to me, both a sports or sporty car and a RPG campaign product are luxury items.  You can survive without a car, or with a much, much cheaper car.  Same as you can make up your own campaign, or buy something fairly cheap (maybe a PDF).  A Type-R is like the FR campaign - a bit more expensive.  And the Porsche is like the Ptolus campaign.
> 
> Now no analogy is perfect, so could you please explain why the *main points* are different?
> 
> ...



Because the RPG market and the luxury car market are different. I'd compare it more to Harley of years back, though my analogy won't work perfectly since I'm not a Harley Guy. They were almost gone, but kept alive by fans. Now, a lot of those folks that kept them alive can't afford one.
Now, RPGs won't break out into a mass appeal or anything, but lately it seems that the RPG market doesn't consider the fanbase in it's decision. Though that could just be the ENWorld vibe lately.


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## Vocenoctum (Aug 28, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> edit:  Vonenoctum, please see my notes above, and do not post further discussion about the issue of who's made what accusations against whom.  THanks!--Pielorinho




Sorry, I didn't think my post came under any of the points you made, hence my posting it.
That goes for the one I just posted too, not sure which of the content is discussion and which is considered calling someone out, sorry if that one needs editing too.


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## WildWeasel (Aug 28, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> I've missed something here, sorry. Are you saying I've been trolling because they said I was whining? Or have I been trolling because I don't want Ptolus?
> If you think I'm secretly a Monte Cook fan, and hiding my inner shame that I can't afford Ptolus, then (assuming you have Board Search priveledges that is) go back and read any of my posts in any Monte Cook related thread.
> 
> Let me see if I can illustrate why I got involved in this thread.
> ...





No, it has been addressed.  People have pointed out that publishers are under no obligation to put things out for the gaming market as a whole, or even any given part of it.  Does it suck that you're being left out of the target audience?  Maybe for you, but that's the breaks.

As for Ptolus and future similar products: right now, by every indication, Ptolus is offering $120 worth of content, not even counting the CD (whether that is content that one is interested in and going to use and derive utility from is an entirely seperate question).  It is easily the equal, if not better, than four $30 books in that regard.  If you're buying the book intending to use it for the content, then all those frills are effectively _free_.  Nevermind that a lot of those "frills" (e.g. the ribbon bookmarks, use of color in a travel guide-style layout that imrpoves the usability of the book) actually make it a more functional product in terms of accessing and making use of that content.

What will happen if other companies follow suit?  It depends on what they are trying to do wit those products, if they justify havign the $100+ price tag.  If we see more Ptolus style products, with te appropiate amount of quality content, and that takes advantages of options that that price point opens up, then I'm sure they'll do well, and we'll continue to see them (albiet at a relatively slow rate).  However, if companies cram stuff together into one huge volume and shove it out the door, without going "How does making this a megaproduct allow us to make it a better one?", then it will crash and burn.

Meanwhile, other companies (heck, even those same companies) will continue producing producta all across the spectrum.

As a slight tangent, about the "overabundence" hardcovers, this isn't a ploy to justfy a higher price. Several companies large and small (WotC, WW, SJG, Atlas, etc.) have noted and publically recognized that hardcovers sell more units, and have better sustained sales over time.  They don't make more money because there's two or three extra dollars on the MSRP, but because they sell notedly more than they do of equivalent softcovers.


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## Vocenoctum (Aug 28, 2005)

WildWeasel said:
			
		

> As for Ptolus and future similar products: right now, by every indication, Ptolus is offering $120 worth of content, not even counting the CD (whether that is content that one is interested in and going to use and derive utility from is an entirely seperate question).  It is easily the equal, if not better, than four $30 books in that regard.



I compared it to the two Iron Kingdom's guides, totally $80 for 800 pages and Monte's own discussion that it was a er "frilly" product, hence the higher price tag.

I think the preorder package with the 5 PG's and the print adventure is what everyone should be buying if they want the product, best bang for the buck.


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## Pielorinho (Aug 28, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Sorry, I didn't think my post came under any of the points you made, hence my posting it.
> That goes for the one I just posted too, not sure which of the content is discussion and which is considered calling someone out, sorry if that one needs editing too.



Hey, no harm, no foul; I hope it's clearer now!  Your last post [edit:  two posts back by the time I got this posted] looked fine, with only one small problem:


> It seems like folks only want to use their viewpoint without seeing the other side...



Especially in heated arguments, it's a good idea not to guess at the motives or desires of your debate opponents.

And with that, let's move on; it looks like things are calming down.  If anyone sees any more problems in this thread, please do report them.  Many thanks!

Daniel


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## Michael Morris (Aug 28, 2005)

I've always found it amusing that many gamers want 2005 quality books on 1985 printer costs. Sorry folks, but the world don't work that way. Go to Barnes & Noble and look at the prices of books outside the RPG section that don't have million copy print runs (per unit cost drops with # of copies made, but even WotC rarely cracks the 50,000 copy mark except for the core rules). You'll find they typically cost one and a half times to twice as much as game books of the same size.

For comparison, I've seen 600 page college textbooks run for $200 - $300 a pop without a single sketch in them - and that was 10 years ago. So, if anything, the RPG book market is undervalued, not overvalued.


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## Vocenoctum (Aug 28, 2005)

WildWeasel said:
			
		

> No, it has been addressed.  People have pointed out that publishers are under no obligation to put things out for the gaming market as a whole, or even any given part of it.  Does it suck that you're being left out of the target audience?  Maybe for you, but that's the breaks.
> 
> ::snip::
> 
> As a slight tangent, about the "overabundence" hardcovers, this isn't a ploy to justfy a higher price. Several companies large and small (WotC, WW, SJG, Atlas, etc.) have noted and publically recognized that hardcovers sell more units, and have better sustained sales over time.  They don't make more money because there's two or three extra dollars on the MSRP, but because they sell notedly more than they do of equivalent softcovers.



It works both ways really, some products will be made because that's what the audience demands, some will be that way, simply because that's what the audience will put up with. It's always disheartening when folks are told that it's just tough breaks that they're left out of the target audience, better luck next time. I think the hobby is too small for that attitude, same as "if you don't like it, don't buy it". I've often heard both said here and there, and then the next day a discussion of how the industry is in a slump.


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## WildWeasel (Aug 28, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> I compared it to the two Iron Kingdom's guides, totally $80 for 800 pages and Monte's own discussion that it was a er "frilly" product, hence the higher price tag.
> 
> I think the preorder package with the 5 PG's and the print adventure is what everyone should be buying if they want the product, best bang for the buck.




The preorder certianly is an even better deal.  But for what it is, the straight Ptolus package is certianly worth the price.  Yeah, it is is frilly product, but 1) that's the part of the point and 2) those frills, in and of themselves, add a lot of functionality to the product.

The IK books are a couple of the best cases of how much content you get for your money.  They are just that, best case, and not indicitave of the norm (keep in mind they also came out years late, which added a lot of development time most products don't get, and a lot of that development was done on unpaid time).


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## Vocenoctum (Aug 28, 2005)

Michael Morris said:
			
		

> I've always found it amusing that many gamers want 2005 quality books on 1985 printer costs. Sorry folks, but the world don't work that way. Go to Barnes & Noble and look at the prices of books outside the RPG section that don't have million copy print runs (per unit cost drops with # of copies made, but even WotC rarely cracks the 50,000 copy mark except for the core rules). You'll find they typically cost one and a half times to twice as much as game books of the same size.
> 
> For comparison, I've seen 600 page college textbooks run for $200 - $300 a pop without a single sketch in them - and that was 10 years ago. So, if anything, the RPG book market is undervalued, not overvalued.




Were there even 700 page RPG books in 1985? 
Really though, Ptolus price is "inflated" by the format, so it's not a matter of printing dollars, so much as art and layout, which is fine since that's what the product is. As for comparison, like I mentioned, the two Iron Kingdom's guides are 400 pages and $40 each.

Three complaints which I don't think I've read yet, but which are about Ptolus:
But really, a 700 page book? Beyond the Mountains of Madness was a bear at 439 pages ($40, IIRC). Ptolus should come with it's own STAND.

Next: follow up support. Hard to judge how many units will move (though the preorder system will give Monte Cook a head start.), so I wonder how it will affect follow up products/support? (given, at 700 pages, the thing will probably be pretty extensive, and few will live long enough to read it all...)

And lastly, I can understand a cancelation fee, but this early on? (assuming I read the other thread correctly) I could see after the new year, but charging $25 for canceling at this point seems a bit much. (Apologies if I've misunderstood the cancellation policy.)


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## TwistedBishop (Aug 28, 2005)

Michael Morris said:
			
		

> I've always found it amusing that many gamers want 2005 quality books on 1985 printer costs. Sorry folks, but the world don't work that way.





So a $60 hardcover would be based on 1985 prices?  I somehow doubt that in the past few years since 3E began printing costs have risen 300%.

A quality book can be had at $10 per 100 pages from any number of publishers in the industry.  Are all these people supposed to be losing money?


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## Vocenoctum (Aug 28, 2005)

WildWeasel said:
			
		

> The preorder certianly is an even better deal.  But for what it is, the straight Ptolus package is certianly worth the price.  Yeah, it is is frilly product, but 1) that's the part of the point and 2) those frills, in and of themselves, add a lot of functionality to the product.



Some do (index/cross reference), some (cover, higher art) are just frills. Not that there's anything wrong with that. 



> The IK books are a couple of the best cases of how much content you get for your money.  They are just that, best case, and not indicitave of the norm (keep in mind they also came out years late, which added a lot of development time most products don't get, and a lot of that development was done on unpaid time).



I used them, mainly because I was just looking at them. Lost power at work due to Katrina, so I've been home since Thursday afternoon. Besides lost wages, this will cost me $700 for a pair of Garands, plus I'll probably have spent $200 in RPG Dollars by the time I go back to work on Monday. So I was looking at Iron Kingdom's (before remembering that I didn't actually like Lock & Load or the first adventure very much) and Midnight2 ($50, didn't see page count, then remembered I've never used Midnight1)...


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## Michael Morris (Aug 28, 2005)

TwistedBishop said:
			
		

> So a $60 hardcover would be based on 1985 prices?  I somehow doubt that in the past few years since 3E began printing costs have risen 300%.




3e's only been around since 2000. Since 1985 printing costs have gone up around 400%



> A quality book can be had at $10 per 100 pages from any number of publishers in the industry.  Are all these people supposed to be losing money?




The size of the print run factors into the cost of a book enormously. Bill O'Reilly's latest political book may be $10 at 100 pages, but that's cause 10 million of the things were printed.

Printers, and indeed all manufacturers, reduce the per unit cost when you buy in bulk.  Gaming books however cannot be printed in such large print runs.

One of the reasons that the book prices are going up is that all the publishers willing to charge peanuts for game books have went bankrupt. So the market is correcting itself.


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## scourger (Aug 28, 2005)

I apprecaited the links yesterday as well as this thread.  Unfortunately, this product comes at a time for me when a growing discomfort with D&D has blossomed into a general disinterest in the d20 game engine.  The price isn't the deterrent for me.  It's the scope.  d20 D&D is complicated enough as a core game without several hundred additional pages of campaign setting information.  And, I suspect that the adventures will be the very "classic" style of play that I'm just not too interested in at the moment.  

Since it is supposed to emulate a travel guide, I decided that I could just buy a travel guidebook and use it for the kind of game I really want if I do run d20 again (and I need to get Unearthed Arcana anyway to see what options to implement in order to "fix" the game).  Another realtive benefit of using a real travel book is that I'll be learning about a real place instead of another fictional game setting.  

Luckily, I have a year to ponder it and see what develops for Ptolus.


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## WildWeasel (Aug 28, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> It works both ways really, some products will be made because that's what the audience demands, some will be that way, simply because that's what the audience will put up with. It's always disheartening when folks are told that it's just tough breaks that they're left out of the target audience, better luck next time. I think the hobby is too small for that attitude, same as "if you don't like it, don't buy it". I've often heard both said here and there, and then the next day a discussion of how the industry is in a slump.




If the audience is buying products it merely "puts up with", that's not the publishers' fault.  Especially since there are a variety of options.  In fact, over the last several years, between things like the PDF market and the first high-priced megaproducts, that variety has grown.

You know, I like a lot of the core ideas of several Palladium products.  I dislike the mishmash mechanics and generally unuseful and unappealing (to me) layout and organization.  However, Palladium and its customer base thinks these are good things.  Obviousily, I'm not Palladium's target market.  And that's OK.  I don't rail against Palladium for not making what I want, but take my money elsewhere and buy stuff that I do want.  Gods knows there's more of that than I have money to spend!  So who am I to quibble that someone is putting stuff out that I don't want?

And if it is something that I do want, and is a megaproduct priced at $100+, that means I may have to not buy three other things I wanted, instead of one.  It just means I have to consider the relative utility I'll derive from each, and make my purchases accordingly.  And if my weekly or monthly budget is less than that, it means I might have to actually save a bit.  So I have less seperate new things...but making purchasing decisions on "But I got four things instead of one!" or "But I need something new every month!" without considering "Does this book offer enough content and utility to justify $X, in relation to other things that I want?" seems kinda silly.

Yeah, poor gamers will have to make do without other things they want, and may have to save up for a few months to get a given megaproduct.  More well off gamers still have to go without buying other things they want, they just amy not have to wait to save up for the megaproduct.


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## Lonely Tylenol (Aug 28, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> It works both ways really, some products will be made because that's what the audience demands, some will be that way, simply because that's what the audience will put up with. It's always disheartening when folks are told that it's just tough breaks that they're left out of the target audience, better luck next time. I think the hobby is too small for that attitude, same as "if you don't like it, don't buy it". I've often heard both said here and there, and then the next day a discussion of how the industry is in a slump.




The industry isn't in a slump.  The industry has never been better.  Take a good look, because these are the salad days.


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## TwistedBishop (Aug 28, 2005)

Michael Morris said:
			
		

> 3e's only been around since 2000. Since 1985 printing costs have gone up around 400%




Two seperate issues here.  I was asking if, in the five years since 3E, prices had risen 300%.  The most expensive book from 2000 I own is around $40 for a hardcover, at the standard 100pgs./$10 rate.


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## Vocenoctum (Aug 28, 2005)

Dr. Awkward said:
			
		

> The industry isn't in a slump.  The industry has never been better.  Take a good look, because these are the salad days.



I know D&D is doing better than ever (well, according to WotC). Most of what I've heard in regard to RPG's in general is a "slump" though. Hard to tell on the Errrornet of course, but that's what I've seen.


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## Varianor Abroad (Aug 28, 2005)

Interesting point about the softcover market. Malhavoc Press is one of the few "second-tier" d20 companies actively supporting the $20- price point, softcover book. I think that's a great thing because it fits my budget well.


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## Tetsubo (Aug 28, 2005)

Dr. Awkward said:
			
		

> The industry isn't in a slump.  The industry has never been better.  Take a good look, because these are the salad days.




I'd have to agree. Which is why I am so sad my fininaces have taken a nosedive. No new gaming books for me until 2007...   

But I wouldn't buy Ptolus if I were Donald Trump. I think asking $120 for a gaming book is offensive.


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## Michael Morris (Aug 28, 2005)

TwistedBishop said:
			
		

> Two seperate issues here.  I was asking if, in the five years since 3E, prices had risen 300%.  The most expensive book from 2000 I own is around $40 for a hardcover, at the standard 100pgs./$10 rate.




Irrelevant. My statement is that the market has gradually undervalued in the years since 1985, and it is only now correcting itself following the bankruptcy of two major distributors and several publishers.

Besides, many of the books printed in 2000 saw much larger print runs to reduce their cost - leading to a market glut that burned the retails and caused a mini-crash in 2004, cumulating with the bankruptcy of Osseum (which almost took Green Ronin with it).


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## WildWeasel (Aug 28, 2005)

Tetsubo said:
			
		

> But I wouldn't buy Ptolus if I were Donald Trump. I think asking $120 for a gaming book is offensive.




Why?


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## Michael Morris (Aug 28, 2005)

Tetsubo said:
			
		

> I'd have to agree. Which is why I am so sad my fininaces have taken a nosedive. No new gaming books for me until 2007...
> 
> But I wouldn't buy Ptolus if I were Donald Trump. I think asking $120 for a gaming book is offensive.




And I think asking game manufactuerers to charge so little for their books that they live well south of the poverty line is far more offensive.


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## DaveMage (Aug 28, 2005)

Michael Morris said:
			
		

> For comparison, I've seen 600 page college textbooks run for $200 - $300 a pop without a single sketch in them - and that was 10 years ago.




Now THAT's gouging.


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## Michael Morris (Aug 28, 2005)

DaveMage said:
			
		

> Now THAT's gouging.




It was an extreme example I guess - everyone knows that college textbooks are overpriced since they have the luxury of being required purchases.


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## TwistedBishop (Aug 28, 2005)

Michael Morris said:
			
		

> Irrelevant. My statement is that the market has gradually undervalued in the years since 1985, and it is only now correcting itself following the bankruptcy of two major distributors and several publishers.




Undervalued according to who?  College textbooks?

If you're trying to say that the entire industry should be charging $120 for books, that's just never going to fly.



			
				Michael Morris said:
			
		

> Besides, many of the books printed in 2000 saw much larger print runs to reduce their cost




Actually, my expensive books from back then were from very small game lines and small publishers.


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## Michael Morris (Aug 28, 2005)

TwistedBishop said:
			
		

> Undervalued according to who?  College textbooks?
> 
> If you're trying to say that the entire industry should be charging $120 for books, that's just never going to fly.




I'm not arguing that. I'm just arguing that gaming books have been undervalued quite a bit. Let's look at the real number here instead of the hype and compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges instead of muddying the waters by comparing dissimilar products.

"Luxury" books - Ptolus v. the Special Edition PHB
Ptolus' price / page cost is 20 cents / page (120 / 600)
PHB 3.5 SE price / page is 21 cents / page (70 / 320)

Normal accessories - Arcana Evolved vs. DMG II
Arcana Evolved is 11 cents / page (50 / 430)
DMG II is 13 cents / page (40 / 288)

For further comparison, the vaunted golden age of cheap - PHB 3.0 in 2000
PHB 3.0 15 cents / page (308 / 20)

And today
PHB 3.5 9 cents / page (320/30) - an actual drop though people whine about the 10 hike all the time.

And the theoretical 600 page book at 80 dollars would be 7.5 cents / page would be cheaper than any of these and way underpriced.

Let's pull in some non-gaming books.

Harry Potter & The Half Blood Prince - 9 cents / page (30 / 652) -- consider this despite the HUGE GINORMOUS initial print run this book enjoyed - probably more copies printed then every d20 book that will be printed in 2005 combined.

The O'Reilly Factor for Kids - 15 cents / page (23 / 208) -- again, a book with a much higher market penetration than any game book enjoys (but noticably smaller than a blockbuster like Harry Potter), yet it's cost / page is higher than typical game books.

Cast in this light the idea that any game publisher should put out a 600 page book at 80 bucks is seen for what it is - utterly ridiculous.

Book list prices provided by Amazon.com


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## WildWeasel (Aug 28, 2005)

Michael Morris said:
			
		

> For further comparison, the vaunted golden age of cheap - PHB 3.0 in 2000
> PHB 3.0 15 cents / page (308 / 20)
> 
> And today
> PHB 3.5 9 cents / page (320/30) - an actual drop though people whine about the 10 hike all the time.




Math oopsies!    Looks like you got price/page reversed here.  The original run 3.0 PHB was 6.5 cents/page ($20/308 pages) and the 3.5 PHB is 9.4 cents/page ($30/320 pages).

However, the original run of the 3.0 corebooks was done at a size unprecendent in the RPG industry, so WotC was able to hit an economy of scale that even their own later print runs could not match.  Let alone any other companies.


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## Buttercup (Aug 28, 2005)

Tetsubo said:
			
		

> But I wouldn't buy Ptolus if I were Donald Trump. I think asking $120 for a gaming book is offensive.




Please don't be offended by this question, because that isn't my aim.  But I don't understand.

Are you offended by the pricing on other luxury items?  How about a $5000 entertainment center?  A $10,000 diamond ring?  A $350 jar of Beluga caviar?  All of these items are highly priced, and except for the Beluga, their price has nothing to do with supply & demand.  It's the same principle, really.  

Now, I have no real interest in Ptolus.  But if Monte is really spending a year of his company's resources on this product, the price doesn't seem surprising to me.  I completely understand if people decide not to buy it, either because they're not interested or they can't afford it.

It's the moral high dudgeon that is perplexing me.


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## 2WS-Steve (Aug 28, 2005)

*800 pages of Sigil*

Actually I hope WotC gets on the big book bandwagon and puts out an 800-1000 page book on Sigil -- complete with Thomas Guide level of detail map (well, maybe not _that_ detailed) and whatever updated Planescape stuff they'd need.

It seems the one big book would be a good way to handle some of the older campaign settings that still have a fan base that wants something, but not a large enough fan base to support a full line.


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## WildWeasel (Aug 28, 2005)

Buttercup said:
			
		

> It's the moral high dudgeon that is perplexing me.




Same here.  Especially since Ptolus seems to be offering just as much content, let alone functionaly and aesthetics, as most any $120 worth of individual RPG supplements.


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## philreed (Aug 28, 2005)

2WS-Steve said:
			
		

> Actually I hope WotC gets on the big book bandwagon and puts out an 800-1000 page book on Sigil -- complete with Thomas Guide level of detail map (well, maybe not _that_ detailed) and whatever updated Planescape stuff they'd need.
> 
> It seems the one big book would be a good way to handle some of the older campaign settings that still have a fan base that wants something, but not a large enough fan base to support a full line.




I seriously doubt this would happen. I think if WotC was to do a "big product for a big price" product we would see a massive D&D Miniatures set with a lot of specifict figures, some random figures, maps, and books. Hell, maybe the new map/adventure packs are testing the market for just such a project.

$100-$200 for a "campaign in a box" -- isn't that just the thing Ryan Dancey predicted a few years ago?


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## Clangador (Aug 28, 2005)

Kvantum said:
			
		

> According to the GamingReport coverage of the Malhavoc GenCon seminars at http://www.gamingreport.com/article.php?sid=18356&mode=thread&order=0, next year's release of the Ptolus campaign setting hardback is going to retail for $120 US! Has the success finally gone to Monte's head? Is gamingreport wrong on this one? Can anyone else confirm or deny that price point? I mean, it sounds like a very awesome book, but 120 dollars? Kee-ripes that's nuts!




Gah! That's insane.


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## JRRNeiklot (Aug 28, 2005)

Michael Morris said:
			
		

> I've always found it amusing that many gamers want 2005 quality books on 1985 printer costs.




Actually, I want 1985 quality books at 1985 prices.  But I'd settle for 1985 quality books at 2005 prices.  My 1st edition books are still in good order and my 3rd edition books are faling apart.  Plus, I'd much rather buy several 200 page books at 30 bucks than 1 800 page book at $120


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## Vocenoctum (Aug 28, 2005)

philreed said:
			
		

> I seriously doubt this would happen. I think if WotC was to do a "big product for a big price" product we would see a massive D&D Miniatures set with a lot of specifict figures, some random figures, maps, and books. Hell, maybe the new map/adventure packs are testing the market for just such a project.
> 
> $100-$200 for a "campaign in a box" -- isn't that just the thing Ryan Dancey predicted a few years ago?




If WotC made a 700 page Sigil/Sharn/Waterdeep book, they'd be derided as padding the word count. Every stat block would be seen as simply wasting space. We can't judge Ptolus until we see it, I only hope it's not in need or Erratta the week after it's released.

But, heck, that still doesn't address the UNWIELDY nature of a big honking 700 page book. It wouldn't even fit in the cookbook stand I use! 

I think boxed sets are a better bet for such things realy, then you can get some extra's and such that wouldn't fit in a book. I think Call of Cthulhu always did handouts the best myself, and I'd have loved to see a nice high end product from them during their heyday.


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## Vocenoctum (Aug 28, 2005)

Michael Morris said:
			
		

> And I think asking game manufactuerers to charge so little for their books that they live well south of the poverty line is far more offensive.



It's really the subject for another thread, but how many hours go into a game book? (not "how long did it take to write", since playing video games doesn't really count) It'd be interesting to see how much writers make per hour.

No one's asking them to live below poverty level. That doesn't mean consumers don't have a right to discuss value for their dollar though.


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## philreed (Aug 28, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> If WotC made a 700 page Sigil/Sharn/Waterdeep book, they'd be derided as padding the word count. Every stat block would be seen as simply wasting space. We can't judge Ptolus until we see it, I only hope it's not in need or Erratta the week after it's released.




No book will ever be perfect. EVERY book, no matter how much time/money is spent on it, will have mistakes.


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## DaveMage (Aug 28, 2005)

JRRNeiklot said:
			
		

> Actually, I want 1985 quality books at 1985 prices.  But I'd settle for 1985 quality books at 2005 prices.  My 1st edition books are still in good order and my 3rd edition books are faling apart.  Plus, I'd much rather buy several 200 page books at 30 bucks than 1 800 page book at $120




My 1E Unearthed Arcana had pages separate within a week after I bought it.

My other ones are pretty good, though!


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## philreed (Aug 28, 2005)

DaveMage said:
			
		

> My 1E Unearthed Arcana had pages separate within a week after I bought it.
> 
> My other ones are pretty good, though!




The first 60-odd pages of my UA are loose. I swear that book was cursed.


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## trancejeremy (Aug 28, 2005)

Now that I think about it, I do think products like this run the risk of polarizing gamers (at least if they becomone a trend) - ones that can afford massive books and those who cannot. Certain posters here like to rub it in against poor people (which is something I notice, being poor )  and I suspect if this book trend continues, then things will get worse...


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## WildWeasel (Aug 28, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> No one's asking them to live below poverty level. That doesn't mean consumers don't have a right to discuss value for their dollar though.




Which is fine, and has been happening some, but not exclusively.  The real bugaboo I (and others have) is people rejecting a given price as untenable, without even _looking_ at the per dollar vaule.  Comments that $120 is "offensive" or "ridiculous" or "price gouging" with zero consideration to what that $120 is buying.


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## mythusmage (Aug 28, 2005)

Tetsubo said:
			
		

> But I wouldn't buy Ptolus if I were Donald Trump. I think asking $120 for a gaming book is offensive.




Have you looked at what Malhavoc is going to include in the book?


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## catsclaw227 (Aug 28, 2005)

DaveMage said:
			
		

> My 1E Unearthed Arcana had pages separate within a week after I bought it.




Me too, I even bought two of them, but came out of their binding.  My 1ed PH  has the binding loose (2nd printing Sept 1978) and DMG had the spine come off (Revisded Edition December 1979) but that may have to do with wear.


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## Thorin Stoutfoot (Aug 28, 2005)

philreed said:
			
		

> $100-$200 for a "campaign in a box" -- isn't that just the thing Ryan Dancey predicted a few years ago?




No, it's something I asked for a couple years ago, when John Nephew and some others asked the question: "what would cause you to drop $100 for an RPG product." I and several other posters wanted a campaign in a box. Something that'll take you from 1st to 20th level, that totally eliminates all the work I regularly to do DM a game. This include: color maps at both the tactical and the campaign level, miniatures (pre-painted, preferably, or even pre-cut cardboard heros), player handouts, props (and make them special), maybe even a CD full of MP3s to provide background music, with "cues" at the appropriate places.

Since then, we've seen World's Largest Dungeon at $100, and Shackled City at $60. Both approach what I want, but are not completely there yet. It's quite clear to me that we should have said that we were willing to pay $200-$300 for such a product, then maybe some publishers would step up to the plate and deliver.

Yes, I believe my entire group would probably be willing to chip in and buy such a product.


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## TwistedBishop (Aug 28, 2005)

Michael Morris said:
			
		

> I'm not arguing that. I'm just arguing that gaming books have been undervalued quite a bit. Let's look at the real number here instead of the hype and compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges instead of muddying the waters by comparing dissimilar products.
> 
> <snip prices>




So Arcana Evolved is 11 cents a page.  Why isn't Ptolus $77 dollars again?  Did Cook lose money on AE?  Was AE a bland book with absolutely no presentation?  On the contrary, isn't his company incredibly healthy and popular?  Is he living below the poverty line due to these prices?

Other than that comparison, I'm a loss for what this is hoping to prove.  You're trying to justify a 300% price hike by looking at the cents-per-page of "The O'Reilly Factor for Kids"?  I can find pop-up books that chime in at $1.20 a page too, should Ptolus cost $840?


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## Vocenoctum (Aug 28, 2005)

DaveMage said:
			
		

> My 1E Unearthed Arcana had pages separate within a week after I bought it.
> 
> My other ones are pretty good, though!




Mine too, I took it as a Gygaxian method of insuring I could put those pages where they belonged.
So, I had a set of UA covers in the corner, and all the pages were stuffed in my PHB and DMG


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## catsclaw227 (Aug 28, 2005)

I was looking at the art for the book and noticed that the image of The Ageless Titan (row 2 column 2) has what look like sibeccai.  Is this a hint that there is Arcana Evolved tie in to Ptolus?  Or was this just flavor imagery.  Personally I would prefer (since I paid the full $120 for the presale) that all the text in the 1000+ total pages (including CD-ROM stuff) be set for d20 3.5, not AE, even though I like AE.  I am paying for d20 3.5, I hope.

Maybe I just missed something here.

Catsclaw


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## Kanegrundar (Aug 28, 2005)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> Now that I think about it, I do think products like this run the risk of polarizing gamers (at least if they becomone a trend) - ones that can afford massive books and those who cannot. Certain posters here like to rub it in against poor people (which is something I notice, being poor )  and I suspect if this book trend continues, then things will get worse...



 That's a possibly, but I really doubt that we'll see such books like Ptolus come out in wide abundance.  Many companies simplay aren't going to be able to put that kind of money into a product and expect to sell enough to be profitable.  I could be wrong there, but while I think we'll see a few more $100 + books, there won't be a ton of them.  At least not enough to create such a disparity in the community that you're describing.  Plus, I could see most books of that calibur being split up into pdf's like the way Ptolus is going to be.  (Likely the way I'll be picking it up.)

On the point of some posters "rubbing it the noses" of those that can't afford it, well, that's such a prick thing to do, so the only good response to those people is to flat ignore them as jerks.  I haven't noticed much (if any) of that attitude to far though.

Kane


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## mythusmage (Aug 28, 2005)

I live well under the official poverty level. I can save up $20.00 a month for six months. I can do it, why not you?

It really isn't about the price or the value, it's that something like *Ptolus* hasn't been done before. Not really. Even *The World's Largest Dungeon* isn't relevant in this case, because *The World's Largest Dungeon* was really a mid-priced item writ large.

*Ptolus* is new, and new tends to be viewed with suspicion by certain parties. Some go so far as to insist such things should not be done, and get irate about it. In time the initial controversy will fade and *Ptolus* will be part of the scenary. (Could it be that Monte made the annoucement when he did so *Ptolus* and its price would be old hat by GenCon 2006?)

Will everything by priced at a *Ptolus* level? Not likely. Not everything warrants such care and consideration. At the same time I hope it means more publishers making the effort to improve the quality of their products, regardless of price.

The outrage will fade, more *Ptolus* level items will be produced, more mid and low priced items will appear, and someday sooner than you think an RPG item will be announced that will make *Ptolus* seem like a small thing.

*News of the Future, 2010*

Wizards of the Coast - based in Renton WA - today announced the upcoming 4th edition of the Dungeons & Dragons game will be released in two formats. A standard print edition with a cost of $40.00 a book for the three volumes, and a special "e-paper" edition for an e-paper book capable of holding all three volumes plus additional material at a price of $160.00. The e-paper book will have the physical dimensions of a standard gaming book and contain 200 physical pages. Each e-paper page able to display any page from the three standard books. Wizards also hopes to soon offer an e-paper book upgrade which allows the display of moving pictures and the recording of home rules, homebrew settings, and character records in the book's database.

Wizards of the Coast is the parent company of Paramount Studios and a division of Hasbro Inc.


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## Vocenoctum (Aug 28, 2005)

mythusmage said:
			
		

> I live well under the official poverty level. I can save up $20.00 a month for six months. I can do it, why not you?



Because that $20 a month is already being spent on current RPG books?


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## Sunderstone (Aug 28, 2005)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> Now that I think about it, I do think products like this run the risk of polarizing gamers (at least if they becomone a trend) - ones that can afford massive books and those who cannot. Certain posters here like to rub it in against poor people (which is something I notice, being poor )  and I suspect if this book trend continues, then things will get worse...





QFT


Onward..........

All this comparing to Cars, Diamonds, etc. makes me laugh. This is an RPG game book, a niche product at best. The other examples of cars and diamonds etc while luxuries they may be, are in fact mainstream everyday objects. Im in NYC myself, a car is very necessary. Diamonds....hmm... My 7 year anniversary is coming up, maybe Ill get her a copy of Ptolus rather than a $400 + Bracelet. I should probably make sure my medical coverage is up to par before I do so. There are things in life that are priorities, my long time gal pal deserves diamonds as opposed to my RPG habits. While owning diamonds are a luxury (that I can afford btw), its more commonplace than my dice rolling in Ptolus. Gaming is an RPG hobby that Ive played for over 20 years and still plan to play but I know where I draw a line compared to real world values.

As for Ferarris and Lamborghinis.... If I were rich I'd likely buy one. Im not rich so I wont. Paying $30-50 a week for gas expenses is enough for me atm.

At the risk of further flames, *IMHO* I think Monte charging such an excessive amount for Ptolus is rediculous. * Again IMHO* This is an attempt to cash in on his name while it's still hot. I wonder how far this book would go if it was under a different yet equally capable author's name. 
ENworld (fans and brass alike) may not like hearing this type of comment about a fan-favorite author * as well as* the head of Malhavoc etc. but Im posting my piece on a public forum. I cant wait to see the reviews when its finally released.

As far as people complaining about my attitude on this topic, I was set off by post #37 (posted by Barak) here on the very first page. Its nice to see people ignore that kind of rudeness when it doesnt fit their opinion. I dont need anyone here telling me what Im willing to pay for. And I still say the car analogy is downright nuts to begin with.


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## mythusmage (Aug 28, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Because that $20 a month is already being spent on current RPG books?




What other sacrifices could you make?


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## WildWeasel (Aug 28, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Because that $20 a month is already being spent on current RPG books?




Wah.  Really, just wah.  If someone can't be bothered to save up a bit for something becuase they have to have something new every month, that's their own problem.  Full stop.


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## Varianor Abroad (Aug 28, 2005)

catsclaw227 said:
			
		

> I was looking at the art for the book and noticed that the image of The Ageless Titan (row 2 column 2) has what look like sibeccai.  Is this a hint that there is Arcana Evolved tie in to Ptolus?  Or was this just flavor imagery.  Personally I would prefer (since I paid the full $120 for the presale) that all the text in the 1000+ total pages (including CD-ROM stuff) be set for d20 3.5, not AE, even though I like AE.  I am paying for d20 3.5, I hope.
> 
> Maybe I just missed something here.
> 
> Catsclaw




There are sibeccai in some of the Ptolus campaign logs. They are a very minor race in that setting. Litorians existed in Ptolus well before Monte wrote AE. He developed them in Ptolus. There will be a short AE conversion (mentioned on www.ptolus.com). But you're not buying AE or a significant chunk of AE content in Ptolus. You are buying a book that with a tad of work could be plunked into an AE or a regular 3.5 game with no troubles.


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## WildWeasel (Aug 28, 2005)

Sunderstone said:
			
		

> At the risk of further flames, *IMHO* I think Monte charging such an excessive amount for Ptolus is rediculous. * Again IMHO* This is an attempt to cash in on his name while it's still hot. I wonder how far this book would go if it was under a different yet equally capable author's name.
> ENworld (fans and brass alike) may not like hearing this type of comment about a fan-favorite author * as well as* the head of Malhavoc etc. but Im posting my piece on a public forum. I cant wait to see the reviews when its finally released.




WHY is it "excessive" and "rediculous"?


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## catsclaw227 (Aug 28, 2005)

Varianor Abroad said:
			
		

> There are sibeccai in some of the Ptolus campaign logs. They are a very minor race in that setting. Litorians existed in Ptolus well before Monte wrote AE. He developed them in Ptolus. There will be a short AE conversion (mentioned on www.ptolus.com). But you're not buying AE or a significant chunk of AE content in Ptolus. You are buying a book that with a tad of work could be plunked into an AE or a regular 3.5 game with no troubles.




Thanks. I should read through the Ptolus adventure logs again.  It has been a while.  Either way, I was just now thinking of adding sibeccai and litorians anyway.  In my 1E and 2E days I always had a Lion-like race (Lionels) so I've just been waiting for the right time to add them to the homebrew I am cooking up.  Ptolus will be perfect, with CSIO, Bluffside, Freeport and all my favorites. (even the old unknown -- Blackwater from Ronin Arts -- very cool) 

I just didn't want my massive volume of pages taken up with conversion info. 

Catsclaw


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## Michael Morris (Aug 28, 2005)

I'm bowing out folks.  I've said all I have to say regarding this.


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## Sunderstone (Aug 28, 2005)

WildWeasel said:
			
		

> WHY is it "excessive" and "rediculous"?




A comparison...

On one of my shopping impulses, today I picked up WotC's Stormwrack. Nothing major, just a $35 (cover price) "environmental" book. I spent a little over an hour looking it over before I got online. The book is very well designed IMO and its kind of making me take a bigger look at Freeport now from Green Ronin. Im starting to think Ocean going seperate campaign and integrating it all to the Forgotten Realms. I really was impressed with Stormwrack (as I was with Frostburn but not as much with Sandstorm).

My point is....The $35 environmental book has everything for Players as well as DMs (Prestige Classes, Rules, Scenarios, Monsters, etc), the typical price tag, and good authors. Why would I want to pay *almost 4x more* for Ptolus? 
I like Ptolus in concept, and I absolutely love Banewarrens (which I would love to see updated to 3.5 someday) theres no way Im paying $120 for it. A 3.5 updated version of Banewarrens would definately be a plus..... still not worth the price of admission.

Before anyone chimes in about seperate $30-40 books, Yes they are worth it to me. Picking up Stormwrack and the Freeport HC will still be cheaper than Ptolus and each can be used seperately.


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## WildWeasel (Aug 28, 2005)

Sunderstone said:
			
		

> A comparison...
> 
> On one of my shopping impulses, today I picked up WotC's Stormwrack. Nothing major, just a $35 (cover price) "environmental" book. I spent a little over an hour looking it over before I got online. The book is very well designed IMO and its kind of making me take a bigger look at Freeport now from Green Ronin. Im starting to think Ocean going seperate campaign and integrating it all to the Forgotten Realms. I really was impressed with Stormwrack (as I was with Frostburn but not as much with Sandstorm).
> 
> ...





In other words, you don't think Ptolus offers $120 worth of utility _to you_.  That doesn't make it "excessive" or "rediculous".  It means its not a useful product for you to spend your money on.  Two completely different things.  People are willing to spend 4x as much on Ptolus becuase they believe it will offer them at least 4x the utility of a single $30 book.  And if it does, then how is it being "excessive"?

And the seperate $30-40 dollar books is kind of key here.  Ptolus isn't offering any less content than $120 worth of supplements.  The difference is that you have $120 worth of potential purchase in one chunk you have to evaluate first, rather than three or four chunks.  But in the end, you are still spending $120 dollars on gaming stuff, be it as one gigabook or three or four regular books.  And if that gigabook offers as much content and utility as the bundle of regular books, then what's the difference?

Yes, Ptolous is priced past the point of being an impulse buy, like Stormwrack was for you.  But I kind of doubt that MC expects anyone to pick up Ptolus on an impulse.  Is it a lot of money to spend and it turns out you don't like it?  Yeah.  But it's alot, regardless of if it's one book or four.


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## Sunderstone (Aug 28, 2005)

If Stormwrack was priced at $60 it would have stayed on the shelf. I love the book, but not so much to spend $120 regardless of extras and page count. The Shackled City HC was $60, also expensive but worth it (even though I already have every Dungeon mag with the seperate adventures). 
Would I spend $120 on the Shackled City hardcover...... no way in hell. That would be excessive, even though its my favorite 3.5 product to date.


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## WildWeasel (Aug 28, 2005)

Sunderstone said:
			
		

> If Stormwrack was priced at $60 it would have stayed on the shelf. I love the book, but not so much to spend $120 regardless of extras and page count. The Shackled City HC was $60, also expensive but worth it (even though I already have every Dungeon mag with the seperate adventures).
> Would I spend $120 on the Shackled City hardcover...... no way in hell. That would be excessive, even though its my favorite 3.5 product to date.




So what made Shackled City worth $60 and not Stormwrack?


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## catsclaw227 (Aug 28, 2005)

WildWeasel said:
			
		

> Yes, Ptolous is priced past the point of being an impulse buy, like Stormwrack was for you.  But I kind of doubt that MC expects anyone to pick up Ptolus on an impulse.  Is it a lot of money to spend and it turns out you don't like it?  Yeah.  But it's alot, regardless of if it's one book or four.




I paid for it on impluse, but I am a sick rpg-impulse buyer extraordinaire.  I buy it all on impulse, but I do consider the source and in some cases reviews.  But when I stack 3-4 books in an FRP games or Amazon shopping cart, or grab 10 PDFs from RPGNow.com or DrivethruRPG, I am definately impulse buying. 

I bought Ptolus now, instead of in 9 months, on impulse.  But that doesn't take anything away from the fact that I believe it is 100% worth it.  Malhavoc has a history of quality, I have always liked Ptolus, and I GM.  My players will certainly get $120 of value from it and if they do, then I do.  That's why I GM.


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## WildWeasel (Aug 28, 2005)

catsclaw227 said:
			
		

> I paid for it on impluse, but I am a sick rpg-impulse buyer extraordinaire.  I buy it all on impulse, but I do consider the source and in some cases reviews.  But when I stack 3-4 books in an FRP games or Amazon shopping cart, or grab 10 PDFs from RPGNow.com or DrivethruRPG, I am definately impulse buying.
> 
> I bought Ptolus now, instead of in 9 months, on impulse.  But that doesn't take anything away from the fact that I believe it is 100% worth it.  Malhavoc has a history of quality, I have always liked Ptolus, and I GM.  My players will certainly get $120 of value from it and if they do, then I do.  That's why I GM.




Thank you for being the excpetion that proves the rule 

And you do kinda touch on what bewilders me here.  If you plunked down $120 on 3-4 books, or 10-12 PDFs, no one would bat an eyelash.  Yet somehow, doing so on one book, even if it offers the same amount of content, is wrong.


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## Christoph the Magus (Aug 28, 2005)

The price tag doesn't really bother me, it's more the fact that it's just a city.  Yes, 120 bucks is a lot more than I would normally spend on a gaming product, but I'd do it if I was interested enough.  But a city?  I've got compelte campagin books that detail entire worlds that I only payed $40 for!  Yes, I know that there are caverns underneath, blah, blah, blah, but it just doesn't sound very exciting.  In addition, while all of the extras are nice, I'd like to see some figs or terrain included as well.  I simply can't imagine a 600-700 page book about a single city that includes useful/interesting information on every page.  I also don't think that I would enjoy running a campaign that totally took place in Ptolus from 1-20 level, and $120 is too much for me to spend on a city that would just become a part of my campaign setting.  

That being said, I do see the attraction for those of you that are excited about the product.  Cities often prove to be the most difficult thing to plan out as a GM and having a good one completey statted out could be a good thing.  To each their own.  I'm excited about premium products (even if they have a premium pricetag!), but this one just doesn't include the things it would take to get me to open my wallet.


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## Sunderstone (Aug 28, 2005)

WildWeasel said:
			
		

> Thank you for being the excpetion that proves the rule
> 
> And you do kinda touch on what bewilders me here.  If you plunked down $120 on 3-4 books, or 10-12 PDFs, no one would bat an eyelash.  Yet somehow, doing so on one book, even if it offers the same amount of content, is wrong.




Stormwrack can be used on its own. So can Freeport (a city based setting not unlike Ptolus). Both are well written and both together are available at almost half of what Ptolus is priced at. I wouldnt spend $60 on each of these books seperately though. 
Now Ptolus at $60..... that I might consider. $120? No.

As far as everything being Impulse buying.... I dont see it that at all. There are products I plan to buy upon release. Stormwrack was on impulse, not something I really needed. I may never use it at all or I may use some rules here and there.


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## Vocenoctum (Aug 28, 2005)

WildWeasel said:
			
		

> Thank you for being the excpetion that proves the rule
> 
> And you do kinda touch on what bewilders me here.  If you plunked down $120 on 3-4 books, or 10-12 PDFs, no one would bat an eyelash.  Yet somehow, doing so on one book, even if it offers the same amount of content, is wrong.



Because you're committed to buying 4 books that you might only want 1-2 of. Because you're getting 3 books worth of material, while paying for 3 and a half books. If to get Stormwrack, he'd also had to purchase Sandstorm and Frostburn, plus pay a bit more for a fancy cover, it may have pushed the sale away from him, even though it's the same in the end. (minus fancy cover)

Also, you're paying $35 and getting a book now, as opposed to paying $20 now, $10 for the next 10 months, and getting nothing until the end. (I'm not sure why folks would pay the $120 now, you're not losing anything between now and next year. Preordering later should make more sense...)

There's a lot of reasons folks wouldn't pay the premium for one book with such a narrow focus as a campaign setting. I look forward to the comparisons to other city books when Ptolus comes out.


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## Sunderstone (Aug 28, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> If to get Stormwrack, he'd also had to purchase Sandstorm and Frostburn, plus pay a bit more for a fancy cover, it may have pushed the sale away from him, even though it's the same in the end. (minus fancy cover)




You are correct, I would have passed on the whole deal. Sandstorm will never see use, I bought it to read on a train one day.   Hows that for an impulse buy?


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## WildWeasel (Aug 28, 2005)

Sunderstone said:
			
		

> Stormwrack can be used on its own. So can Freeport (a city based setting not unlike Ptolus). Both are well written and both together are available at almost half of what Ptolus is priced at. I wouldnt spend $60 on each of these books seperately though.
> Now Ptolus at $60..... that I might consider. $120? No.




Once again, you are not really answering why $120 is inherently "excessive".  Stormwrack+City of Freeport are a little over half the price of Ptolus.  And are just a little over half the content of Ptolus (not counting the CD).  If Ptolus were, say, $120 for 380-400 pages, then I could see your point about it being overpriced.

But, for the amount of content Ptolus offers, it's about the same as other RPG supplements.  If that content is not of interest to you (i.e. a _highly_ detailed city, designed to be used as the basis for an entire campaign, with an adventure woven into it), then ANY price would be too much for you.

Or to put it another way, at what point are publishers obligated to put stuff out at half the price compared to other products just to make you happy?


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## Wolv0rine (Aug 28, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Because that $20 a month is already being spent on current RPG books?





			
				mythusmage said:
			
		

> What other sacrifices could you make?




What, is Monte a god now? 

(Sorry, sorry, it was the wording.  It was too funny to pass up.    )


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## Romnipotent (Aug 28, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> If WotC made a 700 page Sigil/Sharn/Waterdeep book, they'd be derided as padding the word count. Every stat block would be seen as simply wasting space. We can't judge Ptolus until we see it, I only hope it's not in need or Erratta the week after it's released.



Thats because WOTC reuse material in a book over and over, and then in another book, over and over. Miniatures Handbook and Unearthed Arcana see material from its spine re used in many books now. Mostly the spells or races section.

It reminds me of the Itchy and Scratchy movie, 95% new content (I think it was 95%).


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## Sunderstone (Aug 28, 2005)

WildWeasel said:
			
		

> Or to put it another way, at what point are publishers obligated to put stuff out at half the price compared to other products just to make you happy?




You think it's worth $120.
I don't think it's worth $120.
It's that simple. 

I never said it should all be half price as an obligation to me and my happiness. Not sure what button you want to push here. I merely stated that $60 would be enough to get my consideration as a consumer.


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## Wolv0rine (Aug 28, 2005)

Christoph the Magus said:
			
		

> The price tag doesn't really bother me, it's more the fact that it's just a city.



Frell, Chris, you beat me to it.

Yeah, with all the work that's gone into Ptolus I could understand some people being okay to buy a well-written, well-illustrated, in-depth campaign setting at that price.  I wouldn't be one of them, but that's not the point.  I could see it I guess.  
But this isn't a campaign world, it's a city.  One.  One city.  You're really willing to pay $120 for a single city?  Keeping in mind that we can only presume that the world of Ptolus (is that the name of the world?  I don't know honestly, but in lieu of other info...) must have hundred of cities in it...  does this mean that Monte could keep pumping out cities ('pumping out' not intended to be an indication of quality) at $120 per and still make sales?

I'm just saying..  if you're going to price a campaign book at $120 (or buy a campaign book for $120) doesn't it just seem like it should have more than... you know...  one city in it?

Streets of Silver was, I thought, pretty massive for a citybook.  And I'm fairly sure it wasn't this big.  But that was a *lot* of info on one city.


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## WildWeasel (Aug 28, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Because you're committed to buying 4 books that you might only want 1-2 of. Because you're getting 3 books worth of material, while paying for 3 and a half books. If to get Stormwrack, he'd also had to purchase Sandstorm and Frostburn, plus pay a bit more for a fancy cover, it may have pushed the sale away from him, even though it's the same in the end. (minus fancy cover)




So make sure you want it before you buy it.  Do some research.  Follow the website and design diaries and sample material tha gets put up.  Talk to people that have it after it comes.  Yes, Ptolus is a piss-poor value if you measure the value of your purchases just by number of books you buy and nothing else, or if you buy it and then never use much of it.  Make sure it is something that you will use.

Be a smart consumer.  That's YOUR responsibility, not Malhavoc's.

And since we're on the Stormwrack+Frostburn+Sandstorm thread: those three books are 672 pages, for $105 dollars.  Ptolus, for $15 more, is offering roughly the same amount of printed and bound content, along with the handouts, the CD, and a layout and design to improve its usability.  And then, on top of that, you get the purely aesthetical improvements (embossed cover, ribbon bookmarks).  That certianly sounds like a fair $15 dollars worth of stuff.



> Also, you're paying $35 and getting a book now, as opposed to paying $20 now, $10 for the next 10 months, and getting nothing until the end. (I'm not sure why folks would pay the $120 now, you're not losing anything between now and next year. Preordering later should make more sense...)




Once again, the mere act of having a physical object now competely trumps any consideration of its actual utility.  Maybe I am just from crazy Bizarro land, where I buy books because I think I will derive enjoyment from their contents and judge them by how much of that I think they will offer for a given price, rather than from counting how many books I happen to have sitting on my shelf, regardless of if I find their contents at all useful or entertaining.  Really, what's the waste of money: buying one $120 book that gets used and enjoyed, or buying 4 $30 books that sit around, collecting dust after being casually leafed through once?

As for why preorder for the full amount now: 1) Get the lower number on one's copy (pure geek bragging rights)  and 2) it's done, no need to worry about doing it later and the ongoing monthly charge and the lump charge at the end.



> There's a lot of reasons folks wouldn't pay the premium for one book with such a narrow focus as a campaign setting. I look forward to the comparisons to other city books when Ptolus comes out.




I think the key difference is that peopel aren't seeing themselves as paying a premium.  They are buying a premium (in the high-end, top-shelf sense) sense, but they aren't paying a an extra charge above and beyond its utility just to have access to it.


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## Vocenoctum (Aug 28, 2005)

Wolv0rine said:
			
		

> Keeping in mind that we can only presume that the world of Ptolus (is that the name of the world?  I don't know honestly, but in lieu of other info...) must have hundred of cities in it...  does this mean that Monte could keep pumping out cities ('pumping out' not intended to be an indication of quality) at $120 per and still make sales?



Assuming he's already got a year into it, and another year before release, it wouldn't be very many cities. [Joke]He'd have to switch to 400 page villages [/Joke]

At some point, Monte Cook mentioned never having done so many stat blocks. I believe Ptolus will cover the city, but it's just as much about the NPC's and organizations and such. OTOH, I don't think any NPC books have ever done well, so not sure how that will go over, or how much of the page count will be NPC's.



> Streets of Silver was, I thought, pretty massive for a citybook.  And I'm fairly sure it wasn't this big.  But that was a *lot* of info on one city.



Tsk, a mere 312 pages and $29.99.

I had the old Waterdeep boxed set, with the 10 poster maps. Not much in the way of books, but the maps were neat!


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## Sunderstone (Aug 28, 2005)

Is it true? there is even a $24 cancellation fee on pre-orders? 

I could see this amount if Ptolus was made to order (based on pre-orders alone). Even computer part restocking fees dont usually go past $15 and thats when you send a product back. You arent even getting Ptolus yet but it'll cost you $24 to change your mind?

Tell me thats not greedy (assuming its true from the Pre-order thread). http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=2521878&postcount=52


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## WildWeasel (Aug 28, 2005)

Sunderstone said:
			
		

> You think it's worth $120.
> I don't think it's worth $120.
> It's that simple.




Why does it not being worth $120 to you make the price "excessive" or "rediculous".  Why is it categorically impossilbe for a single book to actually be worth $120?  Not just Ptolus, but any book (which you have stated in this thread)?



> I never said it should all be half price as an obligation to me and my happiness. Not sure what button you want to push here. I merely stated that $60 would be enough to get my consideration as a consumer.




I'm sure getting something at half the going rate would get my consideration as well.  Even if it is an unreasonable expectation.


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## Vocenoctum (Aug 28, 2005)

WildWeasel said:
			
		

> So make sure you want it before you buy it.  Do some research.  Follow the website and design diaries and sample material tha gets put up.  Talk to people that have it after it comes.  Yes, Ptolus is a piss-poor value if you measure the value of your purchases just by number of books you buy and nothing else, or if you buy it and then never use much of it.  Make sure it is something that you will use.
> 
> Be a smart consumer.  That's YOUR responsibility, not Malhavoc's.



My point was, if Ptolus was 3 books instead of 1, it might total the same money and page count, but you could get the elements you want instead of buying the complete package. As it stands, you can only buy the complete package.

It's not "number of books", it's "number of useful pages".



> And since we're on the Stormwrack+Frostburn+Sandstorm thread: those three books are 672 pages, for $105 dollars.  Ptolus, for $15 more, is offering roughly the same amount of printed and bound content, along with the handouts, the CD, and a layout and design to improve its usability.  And then, on top of that, you get the purely aesthetical improvements (embossed cover, ribbon bookmarks).  That certianly sounds like a fair $15 dollars worth of stuff.



Depends on the diversity and depth of the material, which we can't judge for a year. Stormwrack is a fairly narrow focus for it's size, Ptolus is also a tightly focused book, but it's 700 pages.



> Once again, the mere act of having a physical object now competely trumps any consideration of its actual utility.  Maybe I am just from crazy Bizarro land, where I buy books because I think I will derive enjoyment from their contents and judge them by how much of that I think they will offer for a given price, rather than from counting how many books I happen to have sitting on my shelf, regardless of if I find their contents at all useful or entertaining.  Really, what's the waste of money: buying one $120 book that gets used and enjoyed, or buying 4 $30 books that sit around, collecting dust after being casually leafed through once?



Which is the bigger waste of money, buying 4 books, 1 of which gets used, or buying 1 massive book that doesn't get used?


> As for why preorder for the full amount now: 1) Get the lower number on one's copy (pure geek bragging rights)  and 2) it's done, no need to worry about doing it later and the ongoing monthly charge and the lump charge at the end.



I didn't see whether the numbers would actually be recorded in any sense from when you order.
It's done, unless something comes out later that makes you regret your decision, in which case you lose $25 for the priveledge.



> I think the key difference is that peopel aren't seeing themselves as paying a premium.  They are buying a premium (in the high-end, top-shelf sense) sense, but they aren't paying a an extra charge above and beyond its utility just to have access to it.



I think one of the things that I didn't really expound on earlier, but fits into my view. I think if Ptolus wasn't geared as a High End product, it would not be 700 pages. Less artwork, tighter layout, etc. It's just an opinion though, so not really worth debating. Just like me not considering Banewarren or Chaositech added word count, it's a function of my, perhaps more cynical, outlook on the product.

Only time will tell.


----------



## Vocenoctum (Aug 28, 2005)

Sunderstone said:
			
		

> Is it true? there is even a $24 cancellation fee on pre-orders?
> 
> I could see this amount if Ptolus was made to order (based on pre-orders alone). Even computer part restocking fees dont usually go past $15 and thats when you send a product back. You arent even getting Ptolus yet but it'll cost you $24 to change your mind?
> 
> Tell me thats not greedy (assuming its true from the Pre-order thread). http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=2521878&postcount=52




I found this:
"Cancellations
You may cancel a pre-ordered item (or items) by using the Contact Us link. However, there will be a cancellation fee of $2.00 or 20% of the value of the book(s), whichever is greater. A delay in the release of a product does not waive the cancellation fee. If White Wolf cancels an item the price will be refunded to you at the full amount."

On White Wolf's Preorder Terms, which the Ptolus preorder page references.

It's not the amount, so much as the idea that a book not even written(mostly), still a year away, will cost you $24 to cancel.


----------



## Sunderstone (Aug 29, 2005)

> A delay in the release of a product does not waive the cancellation fee




So if by some chance Monte decides he needs another 6 months to a year to finish the project, we still pay the cancellation fee should we decide to cancel.


----------



## catsclaw227 (Aug 29, 2005)

> I didn't see whether the numbers would actually be recorded in any sense from when you order. It's done, unless something comes out later that makes you regret your decision, in which case you lose $25 for the priveledge.




My understanding is that the earlier you preorder, the lower the signed and numbered copy you receive.


----------



## WildWeasel (Aug 29, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> My point was, if Ptolus was 3 books instead of 1, it might total the same money and page count, but you could get the elements you want instead of buying the complete package. As it stands, you can only buy the complete package.
> 
> It's not "number of books", it's "number of useful pages".




And it being a complete package is part of the whole point of the project.  It allows for tighter integration and cross referencing of the material as a single, organic whole.  It's looking at the market that WLD and SC and AE has blazed, and going, "How can we make something really kick-ass in that market?"  And if it is "number of useful pages", then why does it matter if its in one book or 4, as long as those pages are useful to you?



> Depends on the diversity and depth of the material, which we can't judge for a year. Stormwrack is a fairly narrow focus for it's size, Ptolus is also a tightly focused book, but it's 700 pages.




Well, given that Ptolus (the city) was the first 3rd ed testbed campaign, and MC has been running games out of it for years, I think it can be safely infered that the material is going to be pretty diverse and deep.  This isn't just "hey, look a city," but an entire campaign setting, in one city.



> Which is the bigger waste of money, buying 4 books, 1 of which gets used, or buying 1 massive book that doesn't get used?




Whose fault is it for buying something they don't use?



> I didn't see whether the numbers would actually be recorded in any sense from when you order.






			
				Ptolus Preorder Page said:
			
		

> Your copy of the book will be a signed and numbered edition, guaranteed to be reserved for immediate shipment upon release in August 2006. Copies of these unique collector's copies will be reserved based on preorder date—so the earlier you order, the lower your number






> It's done, unless something comes out later that makes you regret your decision, in which case you lose $25 for the priveledge.




Which is part of WW's standard pre-order policy.  If you aren't certain enough about your interest in the product to make that cancellation charge a concern...then you probably shouldn't be preordering in the first place.



> I think one of the things that I didn't really expound on earlier, but fits into my view. I think if Ptolus wasn't geared as a High End product, it would not be 700 pages. Less artwork, tighter layout, etc. It's just an opinion though, so not really worth debating. Just like me not considering Banewarren or Chaositech added word count, it's a function of my, perhaps more cynical, outlook on the product.




If Ptolus weren't such, then yeah.  But it is.  That's the point of the exercise.  Though I do note that the layout is being designed specifically to enhance the utility of the product, so cutting corners there will have more of an impact on its utility than it would for other books.  As for the CD material, I don't count it as added word count at the same rate as the actual Ptolus material in the book, but it certianly is added content and value.  Unless you consider $19+ worth of PDF as not being worth anything.


----------



## burnrate (Aug 29, 2005)

Not interested, even at a lower price, but $120 is huge. I paid $65 or so for a discounted WLD, which is a massive amount of playing material.


----------



## Vocenoctum (Aug 29, 2005)

WildWeasel said:
			
		

> And if it is "number of useful pages", then why does it matter if its in one book or 4, as long as those pages are useful to you?
> 
> Whose fault is it for buying something they don't use?



My point is, if the material was split like the PDF's will be, it would make it easier for you to purchase the information you actually use and want, versus buying the entire product.

If you buy 4 books, and only 1 is useful, you've made some bad purchasing decisions. That's not going to happen too often though, I'd think. If you see only one of the 4 books will be useful to you, you simply only buy that one book.

Whereas, with Ptolus, if you see only 1/4 of the book is going to be useful to you, your print option is to spend the full amount for 1/4 value, or spend nothing for nothing.


----------



## Arcane Runes Press (Aug 29, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> My point is, if the material was split like the PDF's will be, it would make it easier for you to purchase the information you actually use and want, versus buying the entire product.
> 
> If you buy 4 books, and only 1 is useful, you've made some bad purchasing decisions. That's not going to happen too often though, I'd think. If you see only one of the 4 books will be useful to you, you simply only buy that one book.
> 
> Whereas, with Ptolus, if you see only 1/4 of the book is going to be useful to you, your print option is to spend the full amount for 1/4 value, or spend nothing for nothing.




And if WotC printed every book on a chapter by chapter basis, I could have spent 5 bucks for the bits of Complete Warrior that interested me, rather than, what, 30ish on the whole thing. But they don't. That's sort of the nature of the game.

Ptolus is a premium product because that's what Monte Cook wanted it to be, and since he's financing it with his money, and since he's writing it, that's what it's going to be. He's creating what he wanted to make, and as a result some people are going to be left out come publishing time. That's the way it goes, sometimes.

I'd far rather a writer/designer/publisher make what he wants to make, rather than settle for less to reach a wider audience. 

Patrick Y.


----------



## Sunderstone (Aug 29, 2005)

Arcane Runes Press said:
			
		

> I'd far rather a writer/designer/publisher make what he wants to make, rather than settle for less to reach a wider audience.
> 
> Patrick Y.



I agree with you totally...... but doesnt reaching wider audiences sell better? Isnt that the whole point of publishing these products? I know Ptolus is a labor of love but making it more accessible would sell better and please all fans... not just the ones with bigger bank accounts.

Going on that thought for a moment.... Let's say I bought Ptolus for $60 and the product met and/or exceeded my expectations, Id pick up every following Ptolus related product without much thought. I'm sure there are others who would do the same.


----------



## WildWeasel (Aug 29, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Whereas, with Ptolus, if you see only 1/4 of the book is going to be useful to you, your print option is to spend the full amount for 1/4 value, or spend nothing for nothing.




If only 1/4 of Ptolus is useful for you, then you are not its target audience.


----------



## WildWeasel (Aug 29, 2005)

Sunderstone said:
			
		

> I agree with you totally...... but doesnt reaching wider audiences sell better? Isnt that the whole point of publishing these products? I know Ptolus is a labor of love but making it more accessible would sell better and please all fans... not just the ones with bigger bank accounts.
> 
> Going on that thought for a moment.... Let's say I bought Ptolus for $60 and the product met and/or exceeded my expectations, Id pick up every following Ptolus related product without much thought. I'm sure there are others who would do the same.




If squeezing every red cent out of it were MC's primary goal, then sure.  But the $60 Ptolus isn't the product that he wants to make.


----------



## Sunderstone (Aug 29, 2005)

WildWeasel said:
			
		

> But the $60 Ptolus isn't the product that he wants to make.



Again, no one is denying that. 

Im just saying its an excessive amount to charge. He obviously thinks his setting is worth $120 and hes in position to publish it that way, I just dont see it worth that amount regardless of name or past credits "IMO as usual".


----------



## ColonelHardisson (Aug 29, 2005)

WildWeasel said:
			
		

> If squeezing every red cent out of it were MC's primary goal, then sure.  But the $60 Ptolus isn't the product that he wants to make.




Yeah, that's the entire point - he _specifically_ is making a premium gaming product. The entire concept is based around that. Take away that core concept, and the product becomes just another setting sourcebook.


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## ColonelHardisson (Aug 29, 2005)

Sunderstone said:
			
		

> Again, no one is denying that.
> 
> Im just saying its an excessive amount to charge. He obviously thinks his setting is worth $120 and hes in position to publish it that way, I just dont see it worth that amount regardless of name or past credits "IMO as usual".




It seems excessive to you. It apparently doesn't seem excessive to quite a few others, including me. It's entirely subjective. The matter cannot be objectively proven one way or the other. As much as it pains me, nobody's opinion is objective fact.


----------



## Crothian (Aug 29, 2005)

Sunderstone said:
			
		

> Again, no one is denying that.
> 
> Im just saying its an excessive amount to charge. He obviously thinks his setting is worth $120 and hes in position to publish it that way, I just dont see it worth that amount regardless of name or past credits "IMO as usual".




And Monte doesn't expect it to be worth it for everyone.  But its going to be worth it for enough people as we can see by this thread and others; people will be buying it.


----------



## WildWeasel (Aug 29, 2005)

Sunderstone said:
			
		

> Again, no one is denying that.
> 
> Im just saying its an excessive amount to charge. He obviously thinks his setting is worth $120 and hes in position to publish it that way, I just dont see it worth that amount regardless of name or past credits "IMO as usual".




And what I'm failing to understand is why its an excessive amount.  In terms of raw, printed and bound, page count, it's about in line with what you get in $120 of loose supplements.  It has increased production values.  It has a packet of loose handouts.  It has a CD with piles of bonus material.

You've been saying its somehow impossible for a book to be worth $120.  Not just to you, but at all, ever.  Not just Ptolus, but any book, ever.  Why is this?


----------



## Hammerhead (Aug 29, 2005)

ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> As much as it pains me, nobody's opinion is objective fact.




Except mine. 

Ptolus is an extremely tempting purchase for me, given all the cool stuff that comes with it, its amazing art and other production value, and the fact that it seems to be a pretty cool campaign in of itself, although from his campaign journals it seems That There Are Too Many Proper Nouns afflicted with The Curse of Unpronounceability. Or just too many proper nouns in general. 

However, the $120 pricetags leaps out at me, especially since I may never even run the thing...I already would love to run the epic Slavelords of Cydonia after my current game closes, for example.


----------



## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (Aug 29, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> ...It'd be interesting to see how much writers make per hour....



Depends on what we do for our day job in 98% of cases.


----------



## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (Aug 29, 2005)

Sunderstone said:
			
		

> You think it's worth $120.
> I don't think it's worth $120.
> It's that simple....



Yes, so very simple that there is now a 12 page thread on it.


----------



## Crothian (Aug 29, 2005)

Price is aklways a diffiicult thing and it will divide gamers.  I know people on this board who don't have 120 bucks to spend on games in a year, and I know at least one person her e who could probably afford to buy this for the 1000 people on EN World right now without so much as blinking an eye.  This books is made for those that have a bit extra money to blow on books.


----------



## Sunderstone (Aug 29, 2005)

WildWeasel said:
			
		

> You've been saying its somehow impossible for a book to be worth $120.  Not just to you, but at all, ever.  Not just Ptolus, but any book, ever.  Why is this?



I never said it was impossible, but do you see any WotC, Green Ronin, Necromancer, Mongoose, etc books priced this high?

In any event, im tired of arguing about this. From my initial post (#6 or #7) I made a simple comment (not directed at any one poster here btw) as one does in a forum/messageboard. I wasnt expecting to have to take up verbal arms against anyone here.

Its weird that the book isnt even in anyone's hands, yet people are defending it as they would a religious artifact. Im not doubting its a religious artifact, just the cost, atm.
How dare I insinuate that it possibly might not be worth the price tag?


----------



## Crothian (Aug 29, 2005)

Sunderstone said:
			
		

> I never said it was impossible, but do you see any WotC, Green Ronin, Necromancer, Mongoose, etc books priced this high?




Not yet, but I imagine at some point they will.


----------



## Sunderstone (Aug 29, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> Not yet, but I imagine at some point they will.



I agree here. In a few years or so from now.


----------



## Vocenoctum (Aug 29, 2005)

Canis said:
			
		

> Depends on what we do for our day job in 98% of cases.



Well, here's what I mean. If someone has a full time job, and does RPG's on the side, vs someone that only writes RPGs, the first guy may take 3 months to do stuff that would take the other guy 1 week. Everything else being equal, they'd probably put in the same number of hours, but the first guy simply doesn't have as much time to give.
I'm not sure it could really be figured out though, without someone taking lots of notes when they work.


----------



## Christoph the Magus (Aug 29, 2005)

Wolv0rine said:
			
		

> I'm just saying..  if you're going to price a campaign book at $120 (or buy a campaign book for $120) doesn't it just seem like it should have more than... you know...  one city in it?




My thoughts exactly.  As I stated in my first post, the concept of a premium gaming product appeals to me, and in the thread that Ryan Dancey talked about $200-250 products I was picturing something amazing, something that would make me drool, something bigger and better than anything I'd ever seen before.  And the first "premium" product out of the gate is just a city?  Big let down, IMO.  It just seems so small somehow.  (and I know that the page count is huge, its the concept that I'm referring to)  This isn't something that sparks my imagination.  It's certainly not the "bigger than life" product I had been picturing.  All of the excitement surrounding it just seems silly, really.  

As I said in a previous post, I understand why some people might be looking forward to it.  But a $120 for a city?  Assuming that it sells well, how much for the entire campaign setting?  $200? $300? $400?  I've checked out the website and what comes with the book.  And it's still just a city.  A very big, well supported city.  But just a city.  

Christoph


----------



## philreed (Aug 29, 2005)

Try to keep in mind that no one person/company gets that entire $120. Assuming a fairly standard 60% discount to the distribution chain the income drops to $48. You can then assume another $12-$15 for printing and shipping (a book of that size is going to be expensive to produce _and_ deliver) and then White Wolf needs to get a percentage for their part in the publication process.

Factor in art costs -- 100+ color images is going to be at least $10,000 for the quality I've seen (and I could easily believe an art budget of $20,000 once the cover, maps, and graphic costs are totaled) -- and in the end of this it's not as if Monte is going to be out and buying a gold-plated Rolls.

Book production is expensive. VERY expensive.

I think that a large number of gamers do not understand the effort and money that goes into a release. I've been in the meetings and seen the numbers -- games are expensive to create.


----------



## philreed (Aug 29, 2005)

Sunderstone said:
			
		

> I never said it was impossible, but do you see any WotC, Green Ronin, Necromancer, Mongoose, etc books priced this high?




Didn't Necromancer just release a big, expensive ($70?) boxed set? And hasn't Mongoose announced a $100 monster book?


----------



## Vocenoctum (Aug 29, 2005)

WildWeasel said:
			
		

> If only 1/4 of Ptolus is useful for you, then you are not its target audience.




It's a bit of a circular arguement really. If you buy it, then it's meant for you. If you don't buy it, it's not meant for you. I didn't get that impression from what I've read of Monte Cook's on the subject. He's building a product he wants to build, the way he wants to do it. He's not marketing it as some great value, in fact I'd think the additions are something of an incentive because he was afraid of the $120 price tag he'd need to charge. Same with the payment plan.

That doesn't mean this book isn't leaving fans aside that have supported Malhavok for a long time. It doesn't mean that a Mid Range Ptolus couldn't make more money by selling more.

Frankly, Ptolus isn't the point for most of this, it's the value of a high end book, with Ptolus being the (as yet unpublished and unseen) example. The issue is the next book like this, or the one after, and so on, once the companies think this will sell. For those books that they're unsure of in the 40-60$ range, they can now pad it out, frill it up, and market it as a High End book. For those of us that may have bought the 40-60$ book, we're left out in the cold, because the "book isn't meant for us".

Monte Cook has made it clear why this book is what it is, it's for him. There will be disappointed fans though, that can't get it. If the book had been made to a Middle Standard, those fans could possibly have gotten it.

It's for the children!


----------



## Turjan (Aug 29, 2005)

Oops, this is still going on? What's so difficult about it?

If you're fine with paying $120 for the book with extras, then buy it. If you think that's too much, then don't buy it *shrug*.

I don't understand the "just a city" comments, though. You can have a whole campaign for years in one city, if it's a good setting. I don't see a problem with that. You will probably tell me that the Star Wars setting gives you much more for your money, because you get so much more cubic miles with your puchase . In the end, it's all a matter of thought and detail that go into the setting .


----------



## Crothian (Aug 29, 2005)

philreed said:
			
		

> Didn't Necromancer just release a big, expensive ($70?) boxed set? And hasn't Mongoose announced a $100 monster book?




Winterlands I think is the box set and it was 60, mongoose does have a big monster book coming out I'm not sure the final price on it though but it might be 100


----------



## Sunderstone (Aug 29, 2005)

philreed said:
			
		

> Didn't Necromancer just release a big, expensive ($70?) boxed set? And hasn't Mongoose announced a $100 monster book?




Is that the Judge's Guild Wilderlands boxed set? Theres a Players Guide too, IIRC. Yes, I believe it was $70. Its also $50 less than Ptolus and has more than one city in it. I still may pick this one up btw.

Mongoose? I dont know as I currently dont own anything from Mongoose. Nothing yet jumps up and grabs me and Ive heard mixed reviews here as to some of their products.


----------



## Vocenoctum (Aug 29, 2005)

philreed said:
			
		

> Try to keep in mind that no one person/company gets that entire $120. Assuming a fairly standard 60% discount to the distribution chain the income drops to $48. You can then assume another $12-$15 for printing and shipping (a book of that size is going to be expensive to produce _and_ deliver) and then White Wolf needs to get a percentage for their part in the publication process.
> 
> Factor in art costs -- 100+ color images is going to be at least $10,000 for the quality I've seen (and I could easily believe an art budget of $20,000 once the cover, maps, and graphic costs are totaled) -- and in the end of this it's not as if Monte is going to be out and buying a gold-plated Rolls.
> 
> ...



The production values of this book are more than others as part of the design, and I think that's also why there's such a pre-order. The more preorders, the better they can guage the market for it, but also the more of that cut they get. I assume some will be available to the mass market, but I don't know if they've limited the print run yet.


----------



## WildWeasel (Aug 29, 2005)

Sunderstone said:
			
		

> I never said it was impossible...






			
				Sunderstone said:
			
		

> ...spoiled when it comes to things I want to buy so no problem with spending that kind of money on anything. I just wont spend that kind of money on one book.






			
				Sunderstone said:
			
		

> Yes because $120 is too damn expensive for this kind of product.
> I agree that companies are around to make money, but $120 is way over the top IMO.




Sounds like you're saying it's impossible for a book to be $120, irregardless of the amount or quality of the contents.



> ...but do you see any WotC, Green Ronin, Necromancer, Mongoose, etc books priced this high?




MC is experimenting with a new type of product.  Just because only one or two other companies have tried it doesn't mean it is necessarily a flawed concept.  If anything, those other companies seem to have done well enough by it so far.

But you noted that you'd spend $60 on Shackled City, but not Stormwrack.  What is the difference there?  And why can't that difference be something that could scale such that a $120 book is worth buying?



> Its weird that the book isnt even in anyone's hands, yet people are defending it as they would a religious artifact. Im not doubting its a religious artifact, just the cost, atm.
> How dare I insinuate that it possibly might not be worth the price tag?




But you haven't been.  You've been saying that's its impossible for it, or ANY book, to be worth that price tag.  I'm trying to figure out why that is.


----------



## philreed (Aug 29, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> Winterlands I think is the box set and it was 60, mongoose does have a big monster book coming out I'm not sure the final price on it though but it might be 100




Wilderlands -- $69.99 -- I can't find an exact page count anywhere.

http://secure1.white-wolf.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=64&products_id=670


I couldn't find any information on the Mongoose book. I'm _almost_ certain I saw $100 as the price.


----------



## WildWeasel (Aug 29, 2005)

Turjan said:
			
		

> I don't understand the "just a city" comments, though. You can have a whole campaign for years in one city, if it's a good setting. I don't see a problem with that. You will probably tell me that the Star Wars setting gives you much more for your money, because you get so much more cubic miles with your puchase . In the end, it's all a matter of thought and detail that go into the setting .




Exactly, the city IS the campaign setting.  One and the same.  It's supported MC's campaign(s?) in just the city for years.  Ptolus, the city, was the testbed for 3rd ed.  Not Ptolus, the world.


----------



## Crothian (Aug 29, 2005)

philreed said:
			
		

> Wilderlands -- $69.99 -- I can't find an exact page count anywhere.
> 
> http://secure1.white-wolf.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=64&products_id=670
> 
> ...




my bad on the Wilderlands, I thought I heard people saying it was 60 at Gen Con.  THe Mongoose book has been talked about in the publisher forum, that's where I read on it.


----------



## Turjan (Aug 29, 2005)

philreed said:
			
		

> Wilderlands -- $69.99 -- I can't find an exact page count anywhere.



As far as I know, it's two booklets with 256 pages each plus 18 maps on 9 separate sheets.

Edit: The Judges Guild page still says "boxed set containing two 188-page softbound books and 9 double sided maps" (estimated page count).

The White Wolf page says:

• 18 highly-detailed poster maps overlaid with 5-mile hexes covering every part of the Wilderlands!

• Two Map Books full of hex by hex description weighing in at over 400 pages!

• Details on more than 3,000 cities, villages, ruins, lairs, islands, citadels, castles and geographic features!


----------



## Vocenoctum (Aug 29, 2005)

Turjan said:
			
		

> As far as I know, it's two booklets with 256 pages each plus 18 maps on 9 separate sheets.



Are double sided maps really that much cheaper than single sided? I mean, I can see less paper, but still.


----------



## Lonely Tylenol (Aug 29, 2005)

2WS-Steve said:
			
		

> Actually I hope WotC gets on the big book bandwagon and puts out an 800-1000 page book on Sigil -- complete with Thomas Guide level of detail map (well, maybe not _that_ detailed) and whatever updated Planescape stuff they'd need.
> 
> It seems the one big book would be a good way to handle some of the older campaign settings that still have a fan base that wants something, but not a large enough fan base to support a full line.




Now this is a good idea.  A Sigil book, I'd buy without hesitation.  Especially if they deluxe'd it up like Ptolus is going to be.


----------



## Vocenoctum (Aug 29, 2005)

WildWeasel said:
			
		

> But you noted that you'd spend $60 on Shackled City, but not Stormwrack.  What is the difference there?  And why can't that difference be something that could scale such that a $120 book is worth buying?




Shackled City could add a bit more material, but frankly it's already pretty exhaustive. Stormwrack I can't see being expanded. I don't think it's realistic to have someone justify every purchase with a reason why it couldn't be a $120 book though.

On the flip side, what's in the (640-130art) 510 pages of Ptolus, that make it worth $120? We don't really know yet, so it's all supposition, but from what I've gathered, it's mostly people and organizations (with attendant plothooks).


----------



## Turjan (Aug 29, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> On the flip side, what's in the (640-130art) 510 pages of Ptolus, that make it worth $120?



Funny that you subtract the art pages. They are a major reason for the price .


----------



## Vocenoctum (Aug 29, 2005)

Turjan said:
			
		

> Funny that you subtract the art pages. They are a major reason for the price .



Right, hence why I said a mid-range product with less frills could be cheaper.
But really, asking someone to justify 640 pages of content when 130 of them are art, isn't really fair!


----------



## WildWeasel (Aug 29, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Shackled City could add a bit more material, but frankly it's already pretty exhaustive. Stormwrack I can't see being expanded. I don't think it's realistic to have someone justify every purchase with a reason why it couldn't be a $120 book though.




I'm not asking why Storamwarck couldn't have been a $120 book.  I'ms asking what makes a $60 book not too expensive, and why can't that answer scale up to a $120 one.



> On the flip side, what's in the (640-130art) 510 pages of Ptolus, that make it worth $120? We don't really know yet, so it's all supposition, but from what I've gathered, it's mostly people and organizations (with attendant plothooks).




Huh, why suddenly not coutning the art content?  Especially when it's listed as one of the selling points?  And, sicne this is going to be a more travel guide format, is going to add to the overall utility of the book?

But other than that, you've stumbled onto what I think is almost the right question: What's in it that makes it worth $120 _to you_?  That question I have no problem with.  For some people, the answe is going to be "Nothing," or, "Not enough."  Cool beans.

What I have a problem with, what I don't understand, is when the answer is, "What, that's too much for ANY book!", as though there is some objective limit on the top price point of a book, regardless of contents or production values.


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## Vocenoctum (Aug 29, 2005)

WildWeasel said:
			
		

> But other than that, you've stumbled onto what I think is almost the right question: What's in it that makes it worth $120 _to you_?  That question I have no problem with.  For some people, the answe is going to be "Nothing," or, "Not enough."  Cool beans.



Actually, my position is "why can't it be a 550 page book with a normal cover for $60".



> What I have a problem with, what I don't understand, is when the answer is, "What, that's too much for ANY book!", as though there is some objective limit on the top price point of a book, regardless of contents or production values.



Eh, it's just the internet, if that's the only hyperbole you have an issue with in this thread, then you're doing great. 
But really, I don't think there's any question that something could possibly be worth $120 for RPGness, but a single book doesn't do it for me either.


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## A'koss (Aug 29, 2005)

Turjan said:
			
		

> I don't understand the "just a city" comments, though. You can have a whole campaign for years in one city, *if it's a good setting.*



Well that's the $120 question, isn't it... What I want to know is what people are seeing in this book that is worth dropping that kind of money on sight unseen?    As I pointed out earlier, everything I've read about Ptolus (so far) seems to suggest that it's just another standard D&D city - so what am I missing here?


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## WildWeasel (Aug 29, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Actually, my position is "why can't it be a 550 page book with a normal cover for $60".




It can.  But it's not.  And there's no reason it HAS to be.



> Eh, it's just the internet, if that's the only hyperbole you have an issue with in this thread, then you're doing great.
> But really, I don't think there's any question that something could possibly be worth $120 for RPGness, but a single book doesn't do it for me either.




If it were just just hyperbole, then yeah.  Unfort I think there are people that are dead serious about.

And why doesn't it do it for you?  Not Ptolus, but ANY book?  Why can't one book be worth $120?


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## Vocenoctum (Aug 29, 2005)

WildWeasel said:
			
		

> And why doesn't it do it for you?  Not Ptolus, but ANY book?  Why can't one book be worth $120?



Why would it? Call it the law of diminishing returns, but once you hit a point, the eyes glaze over and the further material is wasted. The book is too big to handle easily, too big to curl up with and use.

But, what it comes down to is "in my opinion, there's no one book that would be worth $120 to me".


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## mythusmage (Aug 29, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> ... and I know at least one person here who could probably afford to buy this for the 1000 people on EN World right now ...




If he needs my address he can contact me through the email link in my sig. Or he could visit my blog (you can find it through my site) and make a donation there.


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## mythusmage (Aug 29, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Right, hence why I said a mid-range product with less frills could be cheaper.
> But really, asking someone to justify 640 pages of content when 130 of them are art, isn't really fair!




Because we're visual animals. We get things faster when they're illustrated, when we can see what's being talked about. For text to be as useful as text an pictures it has to be very well written. Even then things will be missed that wouldn't if there were illustrations to, well, illustrate the subject.

And properly used pictures set the tone. Check out *Iron Kingdoms: World Guide* some time. The interior illustrations do a damn good job of setting the feel of the place. There's a reason why they say a picture is worth a thousand words.


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## mythusmage (Aug 29, 2005)

A'koss said:
			
		

> Well that's the $120 question, isn't it... What I want to know is what people are seeing in this book that is worth dropping that kind of money on sight unseen?    As I pointed out earlier, everything I've read about Ptolus (so far) seems to suggest that it's just another standard D&D city - so what am I missing here?




It not just another standard D&D city, it's Monte's D&D city.


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## Crothian (Aug 29, 2005)

mythusmage said:
			
		

> If he needs my address he can contact me through the email link in my sig. Or he could visit my blog (you can find it through my site) and make a donation there.




Alan, hold your breathe....


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## mythusmage (Aug 29, 2005)

*Ptolus* is just a city? Tell me good people, how well do you know your home town? I live in a city. A big one at that. In this town's 413 square miles you have far more going on than gets covered by the local news. So it's not all save the world stuff. To a leather worker a low level sorcerer pilfering fresh hides for experimentation is a big deal. And who knows where the investigaton might lead?

Back when I first started playing we made a trip to the city. We soon learned to rest up in the dungeon, where it was safe, before making expeditions into town.


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## mythusmage (Aug 29, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> Alan, hold your breathe....




The last time I tried that I still didn't get the neato toy being adventised on tv. (Mr. Robot I think it was. Got it for Christmas instead. Wore out the play potential inside an hour.)


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## Lonely Tylenol (Aug 29, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Also, you're paying $35 and getting a book now, as opposed to paying $20 now, $10 for the next 10 months, and getting nothing until the end. (I'm not sure why folks would pay the $120 now, you're not losing anything between now and next year. Preordering later should make more sense...)




Some people get paid by the month, and so a larger number of smaller payments affects them less.


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## cignus_pfaccari (Aug 29, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Actually, my position is "why can't it be a 550 page book with a normal cover for $60".




I rather suspect that the nifty binding, CD, and handouts aren't actually contributing that much to the price.  Maybe $10-$20, $30 at most.

Brad (who would buy Ptolus in a heartbeat if owning it meant my characters are forever immune to energy drain!)


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## Sundragon2012 (Aug 29, 2005)

With a payment plan in place, I see nothing wrong with the $120 cost. The payment plan makes moot these arguments about accessibility. Nearly anyone can afford the payment plan and if they can't afford the low monthly payments, they couldn't afford the book at $100, $80, 0r even $60 dollars upfront.

Because Ptolus isn't my campaign world I wouldn't be paying $120 for it right out of my pocket, but I am going to shell out a couple dollars a month to get a beautifully produced book with great crunchy bits and great fluff and maybe some good OGL mechanics I can borrow for my own work. I am placing my pre-order on monday.  


Chris


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## Vocenoctum (Aug 29, 2005)

Sundragon2012 said:
			
		

> With a payment plan in place, I see nothing wrong with the $120 cost. The payment plan makes moot these arguments about accessibility. Nearly anyone can afford the payment plan and if they can't afford the low monthly payments, they couldn't afford the book at $100, $80, 0r even $60 dollars upfront.



Sorry, but if you allocate an RPG budget, it's still costing.
If you allocate $40 a month for RPG's, now you either get $30 worth of product for that $40, or you raise your budget to allocate for Ptolus.

The payment plan is a nice convenience, but it's still money.
It's the same as "for the price of a cup of coffee a day". You can only do that so much before you're just broke.


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## A'koss (Aug 29, 2005)

mythusmage said:
			
		

> It not just another standard D&D city, it's Monte's D&D city.



 I see...  Well, despite having Monte's name attached to it (not that it's a bad thing, mind, I own plenty of Malhavoc books myself) what I wanted to know was what was it about _Ptolus itself_ that's urging some people to pre-order it? Is it just because Monte wrote it?

Personally, I loved Planescape, Iron Heroes (where I'm basing my own campaign) and the magic system from Arcana Evolved. On the other hand, I was disappointed with the Diamond Throne setting so I'm casting a wary eye towards the Ptolus hype. Now if Ptolus came across as something _truly_ original, something ground-breaking and just plain awesomely cool... I'd be on-board too. But page count and production quality mean little if the content itself isn't inpiring. So I'm asking again, what is about *Ptolus* that grabs you?


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## mythusmage (Aug 29, 2005)

A'koss said:
			
		

> ...what is about *Ptolus* that grabs you?




A better chance of meeting 12th level courtesans.


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## Lonely Tylenol (Aug 29, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Right, hence why I said a mid-range product with less frills could be cheaper.
> But really, asking someone to justify 640 pages of content when 130 of them are art, isn't really fair!




Yeah, they could also cut down costs by printing it on newsprint with 6 point courier and no formatting...just a couple hundred pages of nothing but dense text.  Every word of ptolus would be in there, useful to those poor fans who are otherwise being left out in the cold.  Not that a single person would buy that, even though they could probably run it off cheap as dirt.

There is a mid-range product with less frills and less expense.  The PDF version.  And, to tie into another complaint, if you only want 1/4 of ptolus, you only need to buy 1/4 of the PDFs, of which there will apparently be eight.  Isn't life swell?  You can even print out your own copy at Kinkos.  Or six copies, if you had a hankering to wallpaper your house with it.


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## drakhe (Aug 29, 2005)

I was hesitant when I first saw the price for Ptolus. But I got curious and started to go throught the pages at Monte's site. That got me interested, but I was still thingking, will this see print? BHut then finaly, considering I did buy WLD and noticing that Monte had actualy spent time at GenCon to promote this book, I fell for it and pre-ordered it. With all the extra's I think he has a winner here. But as stated before, not a book fr all comers. The car analogy is spot on, some people buy a little Honde Civic, others buy a Ferari, and then there are even those that can afford a Ferari, but don't.... Decide a) whether you like/want/need the book, then b) cosider the price. If you can't afford it (even with the payment in installment option) then don't get it ...


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## Lonely Tylenol (Aug 29, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Why would it? Call it the law of diminishing returns, but once you hit a point, the eyes glaze over and the further material is wasted. The book is too big to handle easily, too big to curl up with and use.
> 
> But, what it comes down to is "in my opinion, there's no one book that would be worth $120 to me".




Which means, of course, that if any of us don't believe in a maximum price for an RPG book, but instead would want to know what kind of value there is in such a book that warrants that kind of expense, you have absolutely nothing to add to the discussion.  

Back to the car analogy: it's like if you stumbled across some people discussing whether a $24 000 car is worth the money, and you said "No car worth more than $15 000 is worth it to me."  They ask "why," and you say, "they could have left out the cruise control and the power doors and the alarm system and all the other bells and whistles and it would be the same car but more affordable and so fans of the manufacturer could buy it and won't be disappointed."  Then they say, "some of us want those features and are willing to pay for them."  Then you say "No!  No car over $15 000 is worth it!"  

Well, maybe despite your personal preferences, it happens to be the case that some people think that a single $120 book with certain attributes is a pretty good deal.  And your personal opinion, ungrounded in any kind of persuasive argument, is not going to appear convincing to these people.


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## Lonely Tylenol (Aug 29, 2005)

mythusmage said:
			
		

> Because we're visual animals. We get things faster when they're illustrated, when we can see what's being talked about. For text to be as useful as text an pictures it has to be very well written. Even then things will be missed that wouldn't if there were illustrations to, well, illustrate the subject.
> 
> And properly used pictures set the tone. Check out *Iron Kingdoms: World Guide* some time. The interior illustrations do a damn good job of setting the feel of the place. There's a reason why they say a picture is worth a thousand words.




Also, we're to believe that the art in Ptolus has not just illustrative purpose, but is also schematic and assists the reader in finding his way around the book.  Removing the art would therefore remove functionality, not only aesthetics.


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## Lonely Tylenol (Aug 29, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Sorry, but if you allocate an RPG budget, it's still costing.
> If you allocate $40 a month for RPG's, now you either get $30 worth of product for that $40, or you raise your budget to allocate for Ptolus.
> 
> The payment plan is a nice convenience, but it's still money.
> It's the same as "for the price of a cup of coffee a day". You can only do that so much before you're just broke.




So, are you trying to say that if you get on the payment plan, you don't get Ptolus for free?


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## WildWeasel (Aug 29, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Sorry, but if you allocate an RPG budget, it's still costing.
> If you allocate $40 a month for RPG's, now you either get $30 worth of product for that $40, or you raise your budget to allocate for Ptolus.
> 
> The payment plan is a nice convenience, but it's still money.
> It's the same as "for the price of a cup of coffee a day". You can only do that so much before you're just broke.




So what makes Ptolus so unique that money you spend on it is money you're not spending on X other product, yet if you that spent the money on X, it's not money you could have spent on Y?

No matter what, money spent on one thing is not money spent on anything else.  What difference is it when that sum is spent on one book or four, when it's the content that's the primary value?

And where does this "pay $40 for $30 of product" come from?


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## Vocenoctum (Aug 29, 2005)

WildWeasel said:
			
		

> No matter what, money spent on one thing is not money spent on anything else.  What difference is it when that sum is spent on one book or four, when it's the content that's the primary value?
> 
> And where does this "pay $40 for $30 of product" come from?



If you've allocated $40 for RPG products, and $10 of it is going to Ptolus that month, you have $30 to spend on RPG products. I'm simply replying to the point that because it's $10 a month, it's different than paying $120. It's easier for some folks to pay the installements, but the money still comes from somewhere. (the RPG budget, as it were)


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## WildWeasel (Aug 29, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> If you've allocated $40 for RPG products, and $10 of it is going to Ptolus that month, you have $30 to spend on RPG products. I'm simply replying to the point that because it's $10 a month, it's different than paying $120. It's easier for some folks to pay the installements, but the money still comes from somewhere. (the RPG budget, as it were)




It's different from paying the $120 all at once.  It's called saving up.  People do it for things they can't or aren't willing to spend the money on in one lump.

You really are presenting quite the moving target here.  "$120 is too much to spend all at once!"  "Then do it in smaller chunks."  "But you're still spending money!"

EDIT: And you still have $40 a month to spend.  You've just pre-allocated some of it, and have to wait (the horror) to see a return on it.


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## mythusmage (Aug 29, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> If you've allocated $40 for RPG products, and $10 of it is going to Ptolus that month, you have $30 to spend on RPG products. I'm simply replying to the point that because it's $10 a month, it's different than paying $120. It's easier for some folks to pay the installements, but the money still comes from somewhere. (the RPG budget, as it were)




Is it the cost of the book? Or that you have to set money aside for it? I need a new Macintosh, what with everything being written for OSX (opaque grape iMac, OSX won't install) my machine is fast becoming obsolete. But to get it I have to save my money up. (Actually, pay my credit card off, but it amounts to the same thing.) In about 6 months I should have enough to get a Mac Mini and monitor.

To be honest with you, I don't really need a new Mac. I could do without. But, given my disability and all that it entails, without a way to keep in touch with the world, to stay involved in the world, I'd be in huge trouble inside a few weeks. The same applies to gaming. It's a way to keep myself occupied so I don't fall apart from boredom. It keeps me engaged in the world. I get a group together I will be using *Ptolus* in an urban series. For me it will be worth the price. Doubt I'll be using the included adventure as is, but even then it can be incorporated into ongoing activity.

I'm buying *Ptolus* because I want to. I support your right to not buy *Ptolus*, but I reserve the right to purchase it myself.


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## drakhe (Aug 29, 2005)

*Slight nuance...*



			
				Dr. Awkward said:
			
		

> Why should all gamers be able to afford all gaming products?  Again, the Ferrari metaphor.  You can buy a $10 000 car or a $100 000 car.  Either one will get you to work and back.  Is it somehow unfair to "car fans" that they can't afford the $100 000 car?  <snip>




Actualy there is one major issue with the Ptolus/Ferrari metaphor.

People who can't afford the Ferrari can still get a vehicle that will bring them from a to b, albeit at a slower pace (and mind you, even tho a Ferrari is cool as ..., it's a darn uncomfortable ride or so I've been told)

People who can't afford Ptolus, don't have an alternative if they want to run a Ptolus game. The 32 page ($2 for print, free as PDF, as mentioned before in this thread) players guide does not seem to be enough to run Ptolus (although individual DM's might make it work). Mind you I do like the idea to have a print/PDF version of players information to go with this size of a DM book! Having 5 copies included in the pre-order deal was what pulled me over the line!!

As already mentioned a couple of times: Thanx Monte for havin' the guts to try this, I'm sure it'll be worth it! (looking forward to read your journals on the way to Aug'06)


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## Thorin Stoutfoot (Aug 29, 2005)

drakhe said:
			
		

> People who can't afford Ptolus, don't have an alternative if they want to run a Ptolus game. The 32 page ($2 for print, free as PDF, as mentioned before in this thread) players guide does not seem to be enough to run Ptolus (although individual DM's might make it work).




Don't be silly. Go over to www.montecook.com and visit their forums. It's full of folks running Ptolus games. I'm running the Banewarrens (a $20 module you can buy from Amazon.com for $13) in Ptolus by scrounging around data posted by Monte for free on his web-site. Sure, it won't be as detailed as the real thing, but to say you don't have an alternative is silly. The alternative is to make it up yourself, in the grand tradition of D&D DMs! Monte Cook selling his book for $120 isn't going to take away your imagination, is it?

For me, that's why I'm not buying it. I can certainly afford it, but I don't want Monte's campaign setting, I want his campaign!


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## Staffan (Aug 29, 2005)

TwistedBishop said:
			
		

> So Arcana Evolved is 11 cents a page.  Why isn't Ptolus $77 dollars again?  Did Cook lose money on AE?



Part of the reason AE was so cheap was that a lot of the development costs had already been paid off via Arcana Unearthed + The Diamond Throne. If you have those two already, I'd say that AE is only about 20% new material (levels 21-25, evolved racial levels, Dracha, Ritual Warriors, 10th level spells, info on dragons and the lands they rule, plus assorted minor revisions).


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## Numion (Aug 29, 2005)

drakhe said:
			
		

> Actualy there is one major issue with the Ptolus/Ferrari metaphor.
> 
> People who can't afford the Ferrari can still get a vehicle that will bring them from a to b, albeit at a slower pace (and mind you, even tho a Ferrari is cool as ..., it's a darn uncomfortable ride or so I've been told)




But they wont be able to get a cheap Ferrari. Like gamers wont be ablo get Ptolus for cheap. But they cant get some nice, comfortable and cheap setting that is not Ptolus, like they can also get a car that is not Ferrari for cheaper. 

And, as people have pointed out, you can build your own Ptolus / Ferrari replica from scraps on MC site and Banewarrens


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## TwistedBishop (Aug 29, 2005)

Numion said:
			
		

> But they wont be able to get a cheap Ferrari.




That's really not the point.  The point is travel.  You can get anywhere in any car, nullifying this "you could take public transportation" argument.  You can only get to the REAL Ptolus through this book.  Not some place you invent 80% of the content for and call it Ptolus.  A cheaper car doesn't bring you to a town that's at all different from the one a Ferarri takes you to.


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## TwistedBishop (Aug 29, 2005)

Staffan said:
			
		

> Part of the reason AE was so cheap was that a lot of the development costs had already been paid off via Arcana Unearthed + The Diamond Throne. If you have those two already, I'd say that AE is only about 20% new material (levels 21-25, evolved racial levels, Dracha, Ritual Warriors, 10th level spells, info on dragons and the lands they rule, plus assorted minor revisions).




Arcana Unearthed was still at 11 cents a page, and Diamond Throne was even cheaper at 9 cents.


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## Numion (Aug 29, 2005)

TwistedBishop said:
			
		

> That's really not the point.  The point is travel.  You can get anywhere in any car, nullifying this "you could take public transportation" argument.  You can only get to the REAL Ptolus through this book.  Not some place you invent 80% of the content for and call it Ptolus.  A cheaper car doesn't bring you to a town that's at all different from the one a Ferarri takes you to.




I have friends who are car nuts, and for them the point is not in travelling - they wouldn't be caught dead in a ricer, for example, but it has to be a mercedes. If travelling was the point, who would ever buy a 300 k$ car, when you can have one for 10 k$?

Ptolus is for the gamer nuts who can afford it. Playing something is not the point - but playing the Ptolus. Just like car nuts are not necessarily interested in travelling from A to B, but in driving a Merc / Ferrari / etc.. I think it's a fine analogy.


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## philreed (Aug 29, 2005)

TwistedBishop said:
			
		

> Arcana Unearthed was still at 11 cents a page, and Diamond Throne was even cheaper at 9 cents.




I will never understand this "$/page" obsession people seem to have.

Rifts Game Master Guide is 352-pages for $24.95 -- $0.07/page -- but for some reason the D&D DMG II -- $0.14/page -- has outsold the Rifts Game Master Guide.

The No Press RPG Anthology is 152-pages for $20 -- $0.13/page -- but for a reason I'm sure none of us can understand the Eberron adventure "Shadows of the Last War" -- $0.31/page -- has far outsold the No Press RPG Anthology.

If "price/page" was really the only important factor in the value of a book that would be one thing. But obviously, as just the two examples above illustrate, there's something far more important than "price/page" at work when it comes time to calculating the true value of a product.

And if we look at it this way -- Ptolus is $120 for 1,000 pages -- that's $0.12/page.


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## Romnipotent (Aug 29, 2005)

This thread is currently costing me $0.00 per page... I like it and shall keep buying it


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## Tetsubo (Aug 29, 2005)

Romnipotent said:
			
		

> This thread is currently costing me $0.00 per page... I like it and shall keep buying it




But have you factored in the cost of your ISP...?


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## Sammael (Aug 29, 2005)

Numion said:
			
		

> Ptolus is for the gamer nuts who can afford it.



Is d20 setting elitism created by product price something that this hobby really needs, though? There is already plenty of elitism with regard to gaming systems (WoD players look down upon d20 players a lot, for instance), but no one so far has gone in this direction. I'm not sure it's an evolutionary path I like, although it will undoubtfully be a success (I'm sure Monte has already covered the production costs through preorders alone).


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## Sammael (Aug 29, 2005)

philreed said:
			
		

> I will never understand this "$/page" obsession people seem to have.



Me neither. What's point of $/page comparisson, when you may end up using only 1-2 pages from a book that costs $0.11 per page, whereas you may end up using the _entire_ book that cost you $0.30 per page?


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## DaveMage (Aug 29, 2005)

For those in the USA who don't like the $120 price, remember, amazon will likely have it for less than $79 with free shipping.

You may now return to your regularly scheduled thread...


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## WildWeasel (Aug 29, 2005)

Sammael said:
			
		

> Me neither. What's point of $/page comparisson, when you may end up using only 1-2 pages from a book that costs $0.11 per page, whereas you may end up using the _entire_ book that cost you $0.30 per page?




Because they can be a useful metric for judging the rough amount of content.  It shouldn't be the primary consideration: "I got this book for $0.01 less per page, therefor it is the bestest!"  But it can be useful when people say things like: "MC is just price gouging with Ptolus," to show that no, it's about in the geenral range for supplements in terms of $/page.


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## Numion (Aug 29, 2005)

Sammael said:
			
		

> Is d20 setting elitism created by product price something that this hobby really needs, though? There is already plenty of elitism with regard to gaming systems (WoD players look down upon d20 players a lot, for instance), but no one so far has gone in this direction. I'm not sure it's an evolutionary path I like, although it will undoubtfully be a success (I'm sure Monte has already covered the production costs through preorders alone).




I wouldn't say that this book creates elitism. Gamers have never been equal financially anyway - so I don't understand the big outcry against the idea of this book. WLD was only 20$ cheaper, so it's not like this books breaking that much new ground in regards to price. Contentwise it might do so, which makes it an interesting concept. The fact that Monte has decided that one big book format will serve the project best tells me he's got something special coming up - he wouldnt have risked this big public outcry for something mundane. 

Equality of gamers does have something to do with the outcry, however, but not from the elitism angle. The reason is IMO simpler: because it is Monte Cook doing it. He's the most recognized d20 developer, a celebrity in our small world. This is a red cloth for all the gamers striving for equality: everyone should be equal, and no-one should be special. "Who does this Monte guy think he is, making the most expensive RPG book ever? Does he think he's _special_?"  :\


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## Pielorinho (Aug 29, 2005)

Dr. Awkward said:
			
		

> Which means, of course, that if any of us don't believe in a maximum price for an RPG book, but instead would want to know what kind of value there is in such a book that warrants that kind of expense, you have absolutely nothing to add to the discussion.  ...
> 
> And your personal opinion, ungrounded in any kind of persuasive argument, is not going to appear convincing to these people.



It appears my original several warnings were unclear.  THread locked.

Daniel


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## Dinkeldog (Aug 29, 2005)

Stupid Daniel keeps beating me to the punch.


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