# Help me stat out Tharizdun



## babinro (Feb 24, 2010)

My campaign revolves around The Chained God, Tharizdun.  As the final boss, I intend to run the level 30 characters against him in a solo encounter.

I don't know about Tharizdun beyond things like wikipedia.  Normally when I do things like this without a concept, I simply just take a variety of powers from the PC classes.  I could do this for Tharizdun but I'd rather put it up on the boards first.

Seeing as he is to be a truly solo boss fight, I'd like his level to be about 35-36 and hopefully have the kind of staying power that Tiamat does as a single combatant. 

The more unique his abilities are to the game the better.  
Since the stats are strictly for combat, things like skills are not terribly important.  I'm looking at this in terms of what defenses he'd excel at, and powers would he have.  Please minimize the use of stun condition.

Have fun with it, and thanks in advance for anyone helping me out.

I'm sure its quite possible this has already been done multiple times in the past, if anyone should have a link for me, that would be great.


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## Starfox (Feb 24, 2010)

I would give him several avatars along the way with powerful mental abilities. Sorry to say, lots of stun and dominate really seems to be his thing. Then ambush the players when they actually find him with a very physical opponent. He still has an aura that drives you mad, and is a regenerating tentacle monster.

But this is all off the cuff. There should be a lot of Tharizdun lore floating around.


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## Mesh Hong (Feb 25, 2010)

Facing any god in combat is *incredibly* dependant on context.

Tharizdun is not a god you are just going to stumble upon. After creating and abandoning the Abyss he marshalled an army against all the other gods and the primordials. The other gods defeated him, but could not destroy him so they bound and chained him in a secret location known only to them. There he festers dreaming of escape........

This brief background implies that to even find out where Tharizdun is you are going to have to persuade a major god to tell you. I really don't think they would be inclined to help, but it _could_ be possible. Every god has its weakness after all.

If you could some how get to the secret location of Tharizduns exile then you might have to break down the ancient magics that imprison him. This could be as simple as breaking the enchantment on some 'giant magical padlocks' or it might involve navigating a huge dungeon complex filled with lethal counter measures designed to stop a god getting out as well as stopping meddling adventurers or cultists getting in.

If you manage to do this you may have to fight him at the same time as ancient counter measures react to his escape, these would probably include sending alerts to the gods who imprisoned him. Now those gods would probably try and get over there pretty quickly to try and avert disaster.

*Alternatively*:

Your story might revolve around Tharizdun somehow getting free and the PCs having to put him back in his box, or even destroy him utterly.

If this is the case we would need a lot more information to create a suitable encounter.


On a side note your openning remark....



> My campaign revolves around The Chained God, Tharizdun. As the final boss, I intend to run the level 30 characters against him in a solo encounter.




.....gives me the uneasy feeling that your PCs are nowhere near level 30 and you are trying to design the end of the story a long time in advance. I would strongly advise against doing this as you probably have no real idea what your PCs will be like when (or if) the time comes. 
(_if this is not the case for any reason then fair enough _)

My own campaign which is now in early Epic features the gods pretty heavily. I have been building up to a God War for a long time and it is just starting to kick off. It is more than likely that my PCs will battle gods directly eventually, but so far they have only fought Aspects or Exarchs.

I also have a Tharizdun connection in my game, one of my PCs has acquired a greatsword with Tharizduns emblem on it that he has subsequently learned is "a Key". Other than Tharizdun being known as the chained god and that he has been imprsioned by the other gods my PCs know very little of him.

Anyway with some more information we could probably build a truely epic encounter where the PCs save the multiverse from annihilation, or die trying.


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## babinro (Feb 25, 2010)

I suppose I was lacking quite a bit of information.  The players are in early Epic at this time.  So there is no rush on this, and it could change as they progress.

But the story revolves around Shothrogat and his clan having finally obtained the 333 shards required to free the chained god.  Tharizdun then resumes his war against the gods which goes in his favor this time. Some gods may or may not be around when it comes time for the PC's to face Tharizdun, but I would really want to minimize their involvement in the final encounter as it takes away from the player's fun. 
Essentially the PC's will be your typical 'last hope' in saving the multiverse.

At present, the PC's have only just discovered what Shothrogat is attempting to do, and are currently in the midst of trying to stop him from getting the final shards.  The plan being of course that they will eventually stop Shothrogat but it will be too late, meaning they will need to act against the gods or face inevitable annihilation.


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## circadianwolf (Feb 25, 2010)

I love Tharizdun and look forward to seeing what this produces. (Although I keep his morality in question, with a cult viewing him as a gnostic figure and the other gods filling in for the Demiurge.)

I don't think inducing madness has to equal daze, stun, or other action-denying conditions. In fact I wonder if a straight-up fight is even appropriate; what comes to mind to me instead of beating on a giant boss is dealing with lots of illusions and encounters that end up with players accidentally fighting each other. Might even break out some sanity systems from another RPG. (I once ran an encounter with some newbie players where I told them they'd been separated and actually ran two combats in separate rooms, switching between them each round. After one group had defeated their enemies, they realized they'd been fighting each other. Probably couldn't have done it with a more experienced group, of course, but in the circumstances it went brilliantly.)

As a side note, is there anywhere in 4E that actually talks about Tharizdun wanting to erase existence? From what I've seen it's just been "the Chained God created the Abyss with a shard of pure evil" (whatever that would be).


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## Celebrim (Feb 25, 2010)

Tharizdun
Initiative +4000 Senses: Perception +4000; super duper deeper darker than black darkvision
HP: 10000  Bloodied: Very
Speed:0 
Resist: No damage from any attack
Vunerable: Sleep
AC 24; Fortitude 4000, Reflex 4000, Will 4000
Ebon Blast: (Minor; at Will)
Ranged 10560000/21120000: +4000 Vs Will: You are all screwed (Save doesn't end, are you kidding it's freakin' Tharizdun?).

Power of Plot: (Standard; Recharge 5+)
Do any freakin' thing the DM wants.

Awaken: (Standard; When the stars are right and the heroes screw up)
Thardizun's speed becomes 4000.  Campaign ends.

Alignment: Nihilism
Languages: All


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## babinro (Feb 25, 2010)

Celebrim said:


> Tharizdun
> Initiative +4000 Senses: Perception +4000; super duper deeper darker than black darkvision
> HP: 10000  Bloodied: Very
> Speed:0
> ...




lol, very nice.

While realistic, this wouldn't make for a satisfying final battle.
Despite being a god, the story would have the PC's face him at a point where he is vulnerable for reasons not yet determined.  Could be through battles with other gods, could be through a powerful magic or ritual set to weaken him in order to once again bind him.  Who knows...


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## babinro (Feb 26, 2010)

Here are some preliminary thoughts that I'm liking.  He'll probably have at least 4 more powers on top of this.  Further powers, criticism, suggestions are welcome.



Tharizdun: Level 36:      Size: Huge
*HP*: 1600: *Bloodied*: 800: 
*AC *49; *Fortitude *50, *Reflex *48, *Will *50                         *Speed *8, *Teleport* 5
*Resist* 30 Fire                            *Saving Throws* +5                    *Action Points* 2
*Iron Mind: *Tharizdun makes a savings throw vs all save end effects immediately with no bonus to the roll.


*Aura of Madness*: Aura 20: Creatures starting their turn in the aura roll a d6: 
  1: No Effect
  2: No Effect
  3: Mental Fatigue: A character succumbs to nightmarish visions and take 20 psychic damage
  4: Fear: Character must start their turn by using a single move action to move as far away from Tharizdun as possible, provided they are not prevented by a condition.
  5: Madness: Character attacks nearest ally with an at-will as a free action, imposing any benefits of that power to Tharizdun.
  6: Character rolls twice on the above list: Further rolls of 6 are re-rolled.


Tentacle Strike: (minor action usable once per round, at-will) Melee: Reach 3: +38 vs AC: 2d8+5 damage        

Fury of the gods: For each 300 damage dealt to Tharizdun, add an additional attack to Tentacle Strike

  Burst of Steam: (standard, recharge 5,6): Close Burst 5: +36 vs Reflex: 6d6+10 fire damage. 
  [FONT=&quot]Effect: The Burst creates a zone of concealment against Tharizun that lasts until the end of his next turn.[/FONT]


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## Celebrim (Feb 26, 2010)

babinro said:


> Here are some preliminary thoughts that I'm liking.  He'll probably have at least 4 more powers on top of this.  Further powers, criticism, suggestions are welcome.




Ok, if you really insist on doing this, do it right.  Thardizun is the single most mythic villain in the game.  He's supposed to be nearly a match for all the good gods combined, and he's supposed to be all the forms of evil combined into a single being.

First off, Thardizun is a triplicate god - hense the use of triangles, the sacred numbers 3 and 333, the organization of his worshipers into triads and the other repeating aspects of 3 in his worship and sphere of power.  He appears in three forms united as one.  Thardizun should have the power to split his main Black Avatar form into three avatars: red, blue, and green representing Thardizun in his roles as universal destroyer and representing the three aspects of evil united into one (Chaotic Evil, Lawful Evil, and Nuetral Evil).  In this form he would then act three times in a turn (hense evening up the action economy).

Green Avatar: Level 30 elite artillery/controller. Mage. 666 hit points.  Weak to reflex attacks, otherwise strong.  Should have a confusion/madness attacks that cause them to attack adjacent allies or go beserk (penalty to defenses).
Red Avatar: Level 30 elite skirmsher. Deftly wields a Bardiche.  Should have a recharge burst attacks (swings axe in circle), and ability to move after a successful hit.  666 hit points.  Weak to will attacks, otherwise strong.  Should also have fear enducing range/burst attacks that immobile foes or slide them away.
Blue Avatar: Level 30 elite lurker. Wields a tentacle scepter. 666 hit points.  Weak to fort attacks, otherwise strong.  Should a stunning (mental daze) attack.

My suggestion is that this is recharge power (say recharge on a 6).  When Thardizun uses it he immediately heals 300 hitpoints then, each Avatar gets 1/3rd of his remaining hit points.  He can stay in separated form for 3 rounds or until one of this avatars is destroyed, in which case he must reform as his principle black avatar.  When reformed, he has the remaining hitpoints of the three avatars combined.

Black Avatar: Level 36 Solo Soldier.  Wields two-handed sword as standard attack that does ongoing cold damage.  Should have a ranged weakness enducing attack (ebon ray) and a cold aura that damages everything in 3 squares.  Creates walls of darkness as a minor action that block line of sight and do cold damage if passed through.  Critical hits by weapon ray or sword should encase foe in ice (paralyzed, save ends).  1998 hit points.  Strong against all attacks, but strongest against AC.  Standard solo monster benefits vs. saves.  When blooded, Black Avatar assumes form of a Purple  Mist Gibbering Mouther, and slides as an amorphous object 10 squares in a straight line making attacks on every square he passes through.  Attacks in this form should cause a confusion effect.


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## Celebrim (Feb 26, 2010)

And another thing, you shouldn't just beat Thardizun.  If Thardizun is reduced to zero hitpoints, he doesn't die, he forms an ebon coccoon around himself.  This makes a reflex attack against everything in six squares as tentacles of absolute blackness and utter cold swirl around Thardizun spinning into a black caccoon that protects Thardizun from further attacks.  The attacks should cause ongoing cold/necromatic damage, and characters caught in them should be grabbed and drawn toward the cocoon.  This cocooning phase should last a certain number of rounds, and those characters that don't escape from it should end up entombed with the slumbering Thardizun 'for all eternity'.


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## Celebrim (Feb 26, 2010)

*Black Avatar*

Black Avatar of Thardizun: Level 36 Solo Soldier
Giant in night black adamantium fluted spiked armor wearing eyeless helm.

Size Huge
HP: 1998: Bloodied: 999 
AC 52; Fortitude 49, Reflex 49, Will 49  
Speed 8
Resistances: 30 Fire, 30 Acid
Immune: Immune Cold, Necromantic, Disease, Poison
Vulnerability: 10 Radiance, -2 saves vs. Sleep
Saving Throws: +5 
Action Points: 2
Aura of Cold (Cold): Aura 3, 20 Cold Damage

Great Sword (Standard: At Will)
Reach 2: +43 vs. AC; 4d6 + 10 damage plus 10 ongoing cold damage and target is slowed and weakened (save ends).  On critical, bonus +4d6 damage, and target is encased in ice, replacing above ongoing effect with 20 ongoing cold damage and target immobilized and stunned (save ends all three).
Ebon Ray (Standard: At Will): 
Range 10|20: +41 vs. Reflex; 3d8 + 10 damage plus 10 ongoing cold damage and target is slowed and weakened (save ends all three).  On critical, bonus +3d8 damage, and target is encased in ice, replacing above ongoing effect with 20 ongoing cold damage and target immobilized and stunned (save ends all three).
Blast of Utter Cold (Standard, Recharge 6): 
Close Burst 10: +38 vs. Fort, 6d6 damage plus 20 ongoing cold damage and push target 2 squares. On miss, 3d6 damage plus 10 ongoing cold damage.
Wall of Darkness: (Minor: At Will)
Range 6|12: +38 vs. Reflex: 10 cold damage.  Creates a barrier to line of sight in 3 continuous squares.  Passing through the barrier causes 10 cold damage.  Wall persists for 3 rounds or until it takes 20 radiant damage.
Three Forms of Evil (Minor, Recharge 6):
Thardizun heals 333 hit points, and immediately splits into his Red, Green, and Blue avatar forms (see accompanying stats).  Thardizun may remain in these forms for 3 rounds or until one is reduced to 0 hit points, at which point he reassembles in his black avatar form as an immediate action in the space of one the remaining avatars.
Howling Purple Chaos: (Immediate interrupt, when bloodied)  Thardizun moves 10 squares and makes an attack on each square he passes through or which is adjacent to his path.  +41 vs. AC; 4d6 damage plus 10 ongoing psychic damage and target dazed (save ends)  If Thardizun is in his Black Avatar form, he immediately recharges his Three Forms of Evil power.  If Thardizun is in the three forms of evil, he immediately reforms as the Black Avatar.
Black Cyst: (Immediate interrupt, when reduced to zero hit points): Thardizun implodes into a black sucking hole, which quickly forms a whirling vortex around it.  This is an immediate attack.
Close Burst 6: +41 vs. Reflex: 6d6 damage plus 20 ongoing cold damage and pull target 2 squares (save ends).  
The vortex remains for 6 rounds while Thardizun weaves a protective cocoon of darkness around his damaged soul.  At the end of 6 rounds, any creature foolish enough to remain in the thickening weave is drawn into the cyst and is lost forever.

Permenently destroying Thardizun: While Thardizun is in the cyst form, 100 radiant damage applied in a single round will delay his progress toward completing the cocoon by one round.  If this is continued for three consecutive rounds, the cocoon unravels and Thardizun continues to implode inward until he vanishes into nothing.


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## babinro (Feb 26, 2010)

Wow Celebrim, truly excellent work.  

This seems like a fun battle while not feeling overly cheesy.
It is designed in a way that Tharizdun will be able to perform even when hindered by boring conditions because of the Three forms. 
The Wall of Darkness at will should keep combat moving around the board as well.

The Black Cyst concept is great as a final attempt to steal victory.  
I would secretly hope that one of the PC's get caught in it. 

Thanks for the great work, I look forward to running this.


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## Starfox (Feb 26, 2010)

There was a so-so scenario in Dungeon 152 named Essence of Evil featuring these themes. It was the second to last 3E issue of Dungeon and was free back in the day - not sure if you can still get it from the WotC website


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## Dr_Ruminahui (Mar 6, 2010)

This isn't so much a build suggestion (I've never DMed epic and have never thought of making a monster for it) as a story suggestion.  Build ideas may come from it, however.

I don't know much about your big baddy, but as has been stated here, he's not exactly the kind of guy a bunch of mortals should be able to have any chance against at all.  I mean, he sounds like he's as strong as all the other gods put together - and I think its a bit of a stretch to think that, even at level 30, your PCs would have the power to take on what's essentially the entire pantheon in one battle royale and come up ahead.

Rather, have the players off on some hunt for a McGuffin that their diety of choice sent them to get from some inaccessable location (the bottom layer of hell or somewhere suitably epic - after all, it needs to be somewhere the gods couldn't just collect it themselves).  Said McGuffin is something that would give the Gods a boost against Tharizdun, and without it they have little hope of defeating him.

In the meantime, however, the big T has escaped and has started on his war against the gods.  The PCs show up at the final battle to find that Tharizdun has killed many of the Gods, and incapacitated the rest - and is about to kill the PC's God of choice!  Fortunately for the PCs, the struggle of killing most of the Pantheon has weakened Tharizdun to a level where the PCs actually have a chance of defeating him - so, to a "mere" level 30+ solo.

Not only does this remove the "problem" of working out why the Gods don't come in and save the heroes, but it ups the stakes nicely while focussing on what a bad ass the big T actually is.  Plus, I figure their are few things sweeter than being the calvary and saving the Gods asses rather than the other way around.

You could even combine it with a skill challenge, where the players can run around doing things to save the Gods from the enchantments that are killing them - successes make the Gods generate beneficial zones, failures can kill them (can be fluffed as backlash/feedback from enchantment trying to resist being broken), which makes Tharizdun even more powerful.

Plus, you could fluff all of the big T's attacks abilities as being very, very powerful, but dehabilitated somehow by his wounds.  So, for example, you could give him a beam type weapon that can blow apart mountains, but his vision is screwed up (perhaps a God ripped out one of his eyes) and therefore has a hard time hitting the characters - even a "hit" is discribed as a near miss, and you can still tell the players how it blows the top off a mountain 50km behind them.  Or that he has an incredibly regenerative ability, and its been reduced to "only" 20 points a round or such because he has one of the major God's sword (perhaps a God that has been a pain in the ass to the players in the past) sticking through him.

Sorry for the lack of crunch, but I hope these fluff suggestions help.

Incidentally, I think the 3 actions a round and working things that work in 3s into his profile is a really neat and thematic idea.


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## Kzach (Mar 6, 2010)

Tharizdun controls entropy itself.

I'd give him one power. Save or die


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## Katana_Geldar (Sep 12, 2011)

This has given me some great ideas for my own epic campaign. One of my players wants to become a god, and I suggested the Big T as appropriate as he's a Chaotic Evil fire mage.

Mind if I use those stats, Celebrim?


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## Celebrim (Sep 12, 2011)

Katana_Geldar said:


> This has given me some great ideas for my own epic campaign. One of my players wants to become a god, and I suggested the Big T as appropriate as he's a Chaotic Evil fire mage.
> 
> Mind if I use those stats, Celebrim?




Not at all, though I never did stat out the 3 other avatars.  They should be fairly easy to stat out by looking at my suggestions and liberally stealing from published level 30 lurker, artillery, and skirmisher (depending on the avatar).  Also don't blame me if 'Big T' makes mincemeat out of 4 level 30 characters if they don't have cold immunity.


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## Celebrim (Sep 12, 2011)

Green Avatar of Thardizun
Level 30 Elite Artillery
Wizard in peeked hat and green robes.  Faceless, hands and feet like squid.

Size Large
HP: 666: Bloodied: 333 
AC 43; Fortitude 42, Reflex 39, Will 42 
Speed 8
Resistances: 20 Fire, 20 Acid
Immune: Immune Cold, Necromantic, Disease, Poison
Vulnerability: 20 Radiance, -2 saves vs. Sleep
Saving Throws: +2 
Action Points: 1
Ray of Green Acid (Standard: At Will)
Reach 12/24: +35 vs. Reflex 3d8 damage plus 20 ongoing acid damage (save ends), effects all targets in line
Hand of Force (Minor: At Will)
Close: +37 vs. Reflex 1d10+15 damage, save or pushed 1d6 squares back
Thrown Nightmare (Standard; recharge 5,6)
Reach 6/12: +35 vs. Will 3d10 psychic damage, save or must go beserk (-3 to defences) and attacks nearest ally as if dominated (save ends both).
Clawing Slime (Minor; recharge 5,6)
Reach 12: Creates a 3x3 area of sentient clawing slime, which reaches up to grab anything above it.  Anyone in or moving through area suffers an attack +39 vs. AC, 20 ongoing acid damage and is immobilized (save ends both).  Slime lasts for 6 rounds, though each square can be destroyed by 20 points of radiance damage.

Red Avatar of Thardizun
Level 30 Elite Skirmiser
Masked Rogue wearing solid red suit similar to that of a jester or clown.  Wields bardiche

Size Large
HP: 666: Bloodied: 333 
AC 43; Fortitude 42, Reflex 42, Will 39 
Speed 10
Resistances: 20 Fire, 20 Acid
Immune: Immune Cold, Necromantic, Disease, Poison
Vulnerability: 20 Radiance, -2 saves vs. Sleep
Saving Throws: +2 
Action Points: 1
Graceful Bardiche Cut
Melee +36 vs. AC (standard; at will): 3d12+15 damage, does bonus 3d12 damage if Red Avatar has combat advantage.  Also does additional bonus 3d12 damage on critical.  If attack is successful, may shift 2 after hit.
Spinning Axe 
Close Burst 2 +35 vs. AC (standard, recharge 5,6): 5d12+15 damage, if all attacks miss, may shift 2 and immediately recharge power.
Terrorizing Aura
Close Burst 6: +33 vs. Will (minor, recharge 5,6): 10 pychic ongoing pyschic damage, target is stunned, and target is pushed 2 squares back (save ends all three) 
Red Avatar's Rage (immediate, when bloodied): Red Avatar of Thardizun immediately recharges all powers.

Blue Avatar of Thardizun
Level 30 Elite Lurker
Blue hooded robed figure with over long arms, bearing a scepter topped with a lashing tentacle.

Size Large
HP: 666: Bloodied: 333 
AC 43; Fortitude 39, Reflex 42, Will 42 
Speed 8
Resistances: 20 Fire, 20 Acid
Immune: Immune Cold, Necromantic, Disease, Poison
Vulnerability: 20 Radiance, -2 saves vs. Sleep
Saving Throws: +2 
Action Points: 1
Tentacled Touch
Melee +36 vs. AC (standard; at will): 3d8+10 damage and target is grabbed (save ends).  While target grabbed, this attack is a minor action and automatically hits.  If Blue Avatar has combat advantage, does an additional 3d8 damage.
Mind Destroying Chaos
10/20 Ranged + 33 vs. Will (standard; at will): 20 ongoing psychic damage and target is stunned (save ends both)
Cloud of Blue Chaos (minor; recharge 5,6)
Blue Avatar shifts 4 and gains combat advantage against all opponents


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## Quickleaf (Sep 12, 2011)

Awesome. Your PCs are going to fight the most legendary evil in D&D. If they win I say you buy everyone t-shirts that say "I won D&D" or custom print your own that have something about "Unchained" but make them look like metal shirts. 

I'm not going to tackle any stat block stuff right now but instead some story and encounter-framing ideas...

The 4 Princes of Elemental Evil should be faced along the way of course: Imix, Ogremoch, and...Uh...those other two.

The reason gods can't take Tharizdun head-on is because he has a corrupting aura which causes immortals to warp and become slaves to his will, possibly even sending them into a demiplane prison outright. This could lead to situations where the PCs have to deal with Pelor in order to get to Tharizdun, and that would definitely be less of a standard combat and more of a puzzle/skill challenge/RP opportunity.

Also Tharizdun seems to have power over dream/nightmares so you can play up that angle with saving an NPC or PC from a dreamscape. Could make for a fun one-shot, even could let the imprisoned PC's player DM that one. But mucking with extended rests could really be the most effective, requiring the PCs find a way to protect their dreams from Tharizdun.

There's a scenario I've always wanted to run called "Through a Mirror Darkly" which would really fit Tharizdun's nodus operandi. When the PCs use a teleport/portal they end up in different rooms (or so it seems). Each room has several dangerous monsters equal to the number of other PCs. Likewise there are an equal number of frosty mirrors. Each PC is given a monster analogue (without the players knowing), though the monsters should have a subtle personality/characteristic hint. My examples aren't epic but...

E.g. The fighter faces 4 monsters - a Displacer beast (the Rogue), an evil Treant (Druid), a fire elemental (Mage specializing in pyromancy), and a marut (the stoic Cleric). In the other PCs rooms the fighter appears as a lumbering troll.

There's more specifics and countermeasures I've written up, but that's the gist of the scenario. It's the sort of thing Tharizdun can pull when he retreats across the planes or through a teleportation circle, with the PCs in hot pursuit.

Oh, one more thing, at those levels you've probably already started doing this, but damaging terrain really helps to speed things up and introduce more threat. In your case I'd give Tharizdun power over the elements which can either happen as a background hazard or can activate when he becomes temporarily invulnerable and sends minions at the PCs. These elemental hazards should be insanely high damage, like bloody in one hit damage (and should be two damage types); also have them changing during the course of battle, both in damage type and mode of attack. You could have a whirpool of darkflame which then becomes pillars of searing acid which spreads among adjacent creatures. It probably would be a pain to map all this changing terrain, but it would give the fight a really unique character.

I'll post more once I've had time to digest [MENTION=4937]Celebrim[/MENTION] 's great comments. Good luck!


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## Kelvor Ravenstar (Sep 20, 2011)

I'm using Tharizdun as the big nasty at the end of my campaign too, so I looked at Celebrim's work with great interest. I think I'm using it very close to as-is, but I've added a few traits to make him more challenging without reducing fun. 
So I removed some of the stunning effects, or offered players choices to get around them, and varied some of the powers to add more of the entropy back in rather than just cold attacks.

This stat block was created using the great Power2ool, I guess I could make it in the monster builder now, but its export is still more work than Power2ool's.


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## MortalPlague (Sep 21, 2011)

Glancing at your stat block, Tharizdun seems well-built (the triple actions will be especially potent), but I wonder if his damage output will be high enough?  I'd be tempted to bump it up by half, or maybe even double it.

When I ran a group of five PCs against Ogremoch, Lolth, and Vecna (thread here, I didn't manage to down a single PC.  Not once.  And they all had contingency things that triggered "the first time they die during a day"...

The Lolth fight in particular had the goddess herself hitting for 4d6 + 24 damage and ongoing poison damage (20, I believe).  With threatening reach 3.  Then she had two gods fighting alongside.  Vhaeraun had two attacks as his basic attack, hitting for 4d6 + 20 and 4d6 + 15 damage, and adding ongoing 10 poison damage on top of that.  Then Selvetarm also had two attacks, hitting for 3d6 + 18 and 3d6 + 18, with the kicker "The target cannot gain hit points until the end of Selvetarm's next turn" and "The target loses resistances and immunities until the end of Selvetarm's next turn".

All that nastiness, and no PCs went down.


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## Kelvor Ravenstar (Sep 21, 2011)

I agree, his damage output maybe isn't enough yet, but working from Celebrim's version I could immediately tell that his was using older damage expressions. This was my first attempt at an epic creature, so I'm expecting I'll have to bump the damage up even further. Depending on how many PC's it faces, I may even have to increase its damage adhoc at the table.


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## S'mon (Sep 21, 2011)

Tharizdun appears in person (as a nice young man, AIR) in Gygax's "Dance of Demons" - might be worth checking out.

BTW Gygaxian Alignment is the opposite of WotC/4e - in Gygax the CE Demons OPPOSE Tharidun, while LE & NE support him, because they are the one Evil faction who do NOT seek Entropy.


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## Celebrim (Sep 23, 2011)

Kelvor Ravenstar said:


> I agree, his damage output maybe isn't enough yet, but working from Celebrim's version I could immediately tell that his was using older damage expressions. This was my first attempt at an epic creature, so I'm expecting I'll have to bump the damage up even further. Depending on how many PC's it faces, I may even have to increase its damage adhoc at the table.




Mine as well, at least in 4e.  

Let me first say that I'm very impressed.  Don't take these comments as tinged with anything but respect. 

As long as you are playing with Ebon Ray's flavor, I suggest adding to its critical that the target loses a healing surge.

In line with your other needed damage boosts (now that I've actually taken the time to do some math in my head), I suggest boosting blast of utter cold's base damage to 10d6 (5d6 on miss) and boosting the base damage from howling purple chaos to 10d8.  If more is needed (and doing some math, I think it is), try bumping base damage of God Killing Sword to 4d8+28 and base damage of Ebon Ray to 3d8+30 fire.  This should give him the ability to do enough damage that he's actually threatening.

However, my only real complaint is the oversight of not giving a duration to Three Forms of Evil.  It's absolutely critical that Three Forms of Evil ends on its own after a short number of rounds (I choose three).  Not only will this end ongoing conditions, but big T needs to return to his primary black Avatar quickly because Three Forms of Evil is T's only recovery power.   The intention is for him to be able to activate it at least twice during the encounter, because healing 333 damage should buy him nearly a turn of life and push the party closer to the point where they'll begin to run out of encounter resources.  Without the heals, T 'just' has 1998 hit points and probably is going down in like 6 rounds or so.  If Three Forms of Evil does not end on its own, then it will be too easy to whittle down Thardizun's life while he's in what is in some ways a weaker form and more quickly end the fight.  Also, while you got the implicit hit points mechanic and the fact that by switching , the quick toggle between either of two forms was intended to thwart ongoing conditions as well as recharge Thardizun's powers in either combat mode.

Would love to see what you do with the outline of the 3 other avatars I provided.


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## Kelvor Ravenstar (Sep 23, 2011)

Good catch Celebrim, I had intended to include the three round duration of Three Forms of Evil. I really liked how Tharizdun's numerology informed the monster design, but the limits of Power2ool in size for the gigantic stat block made it very difficult towards the end. I may end up trying it again in the new monster builder, don't know how well it can deal with a giant stat block yet.


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## aco175 (Oct 2, 2011)

I was just reading in Dragon 294, April 2002, about him and 3 other Gods of Greyhawk.  It is 3e stats, but they have some minor fluff that could be useful.  He seeks the utter destruction of the universe itself and his dire visions of this end was what caused the other gods to imprison him, to prevent these dreams for happening.  They listed Madness and Force Domains.  

A few spell ideas involve a lower level touch, lev2 Tharizdun's Touch, that prevents any actions for 1rnd/ caster level, I would give it 4e save ends.  There is a few other daze/stun like spells and a cool level8 spell- Tharizdun's Endless Scream.  It is a single target touch spell, but I would make it a blast spell5 or something.  People just run around at random screaming like they are mad.  For 4e I might make that Helpless, save ends, or even with an after effect; Dazed, save ends.

For Force domain- there is a lev3 Blast of Force, similar to the Wizard Force Ram spell. Maybe make it a blast 3 effect- push 3 and knock prone.  The other one is the lev9 Annihilation which creates a Sphere of Annihilation for 1 round/lev.  For 4e maybe sustain minor.


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## hoyza (Jan 9, 2021)

(I just realized this post is from 2011. And yet ...)

By the time you battle he who shall not be named, you are not rolling dice. You are telling a collaborative story. Read "Role Playing Mastery" by Gygax. You might also want to read the Gord the Rogue Novels - all of them - starting with Saga of the Old City and ending with "Dance of Demons." You'll learn about the Theoparts that bound him, how he was freed, and what happened when Graz'zt tried to take him out with his sword Vs how Gord fought him. Good luck!


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## hoyza (Jan 9, 2021)

(I just realized this post is from 2011. And yet ...)

By the time you battle he who shall not be named, you are not rolling dice. You are telling a collaborative story. Read "Role Playing Mastery" by Gygax. You might also want to read the Gord the Rogue Novels - all of them - starting with Saga of the Old City and ending with "Dance of Demons." You'll learn about the Theoparts that bound him, how he was freed, and what happened when Graz'zt tried to take him out with his sword Vs how Gord fought him. Good luck!


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## Weiley31 (Jan 12, 2021)

I think one way or the best way to look at this is _how_ such a thing would be done. If we're talking about the PC's directly fighting Tharizdun like directly in his prison jail cell, then that would probably not go so well as being in his mere presence would probably drive anybody to sheer insanity. Likewise, fighting a freed Tharizdun would probably be not the best of things to happen, as again, a direct fight against him would be next to impossible.


A way to handle it or still have a boss fight against him, would probably be done against a high power avatar of Tharizdun himself. IIRC, in DND 3E/3.5, this actually ended up being Shothragot who was an immensely powerful Elder Evil that was the Herald of Tharizdun. So that would be the thing to chart out for in regards to having a final boss fight.

Just my humblest of opinions.


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