# Moronic Questions/Clarification



## phloog (Feb 12, 2008)

I don't want to hog this board, but I have a bunch of questions...rather than write an essay-length post with them all, I'll try to ask the most important ones first.

1) From my reading of the rules, any spell that is not 'simple' - meaning one spell list, must have at least one MP per list used - - so you can't put any 'cantrip' effects into a complex spell.  From this, I gather that a 1st level caster can ONLY cast simple spells with one spell list...is this right?  I can't cast spells that cost more than 1 MP, and if I add a second list it becomes complex, meaning EACH needs at least one.  Just trying to confirm I understand that.

2) [PLANT] is a creature type....[NATURE] is an element.  What is the dividing line between the two...sentience?  To impact an apple on a tree, would I use PLANT because it is alive?  What if it is off the tree?  My current thought is that the apple and the tree would both be NATURE, and that PLANT is restricted to plant creatures that have stats (STR, DEX, etc.)

It doesn't seem like they'll ever be another revision, but I know that as a long-time moron I could use a list of examples for each:  Plant would include....Nature would include...or maybe a list of a wide variety of example 'things', and what type they would fall into.  But I'm sure I just missed a sentence or word somewhere....LRH would be so disappointed.


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## sirwmholder (Feb 12, 2008)

I'll try to lend a hand here...

1) Correct.  A level 1 Mage can only cast simple spells.  However there is either a tradition or some other feat that allows a Mage to cast as if his Caster level were 2 levels higher.

2) Depends on what you are trying to create.  For instance, if you want a spell to hedge out Plant Creatures similar to a Cleric's Turn ability you would use Abjure (Plant) whereas Abjure (Nature) could grant you an AC bonus or DR.

Hope this helps,
William Holder

EDIT: The only moronic questions are the ones not asked .


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## sirwmholder (Feb 12, 2008)

2.1) Anything you can imagine can be created using Elements of Magic... though sometimes not in the ways we first envision them.  For example, if you wanted to create a living apple tree like that in the Wizard of Oz you could a) Transform a tree into an Apple Treant for a short while. b) Summon an Apple Treant and stat up a new monster. c) Use a combination of Illusions and Move (Force)to give a normal apple tree life like qualities. Ultimately, it depends on the effect you want as to what spell list you'll need.

Again, just trying to help,
William Holder


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## phloog (Feb 13, 2008)

Thanks, Sir William,

Maybe the third, fourth, and fifth moronic questions will be asking how far off I am in my understanding...these are spells I was thinking about, but I'm not sure if I've stretched things to the point of damaging balance.

3) A personal spell lasting one minute, that changes your form and apparel, as a disguise but without illusion magic.  MP1 and MP1 for cosmetic changes to the person and the clothing, allowing a size change down of up to two sizes. +10 to disguise rolls - Transform Humanoid 1, Transform Nature 1, Gen 0 -- I like it because wouldn't some form of True Seeing not really pierce this disguise?  You are actually changed (though Detect Magic would reveal some) - - Total MP 2

4) Create Space 0 / Gen 1 - - Creates an extra-dimensional space with an opening 12 inches in diameter.  When the first object is dropped into this space, the entrance closes, sealing the object outside of the world.  When the duration (10 minutes Gen 1 duration) expires or the caster commands it, the spell ends and the object is ejected.  ((my main concern here is that I wrote in the 'closes upon entry' bit...))

5) Transform Humanoid 1 / Gen 0 - - makes the caster's legs extend so that his total height is that of a creature two sizes larger (medium to huge).   Used primarily to reach high areas, the longer legs are ungainly, so any move bonus from length is lost.  In this way, ALL bonuses from height are effectively cancelled by the ungainliness.   Clothing does not change with the caster, but since only the length of the legs is impacted, this is not normally an issue (unless tights are worn!).

Am I way off?  Are these too weak/powerful?  Opinions?

Danke,
JT


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## sirwmholder (Feb 13, 2008)

By no means the authority here... this is my opinion.

3) My understanding is you would not need the Transform (Nature)... unless your character is naked and you are changing "light" into clothing. Transform (Creature) alters clothing being worn as well.  Though the extent of this change is determined by the DM.

4) You can only seal the opening from the inside.  Great place to hide self but not items... unless you plan to teleport yourself outside after dropping the item off... but that may be going a bit too far.

5) Attached is a document that was released sometime ago.  I don't recall if it was in the zip file but it was posted here qute a few times.  Anyway it includes modifiers for size changes.

Hope this was atleast amusing if not helpful 
William Holder


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## phloog (Feb 13, 2008)

It was absolutely helpful - thanks again.

I was wondering about the Create Space spell - I read that the caster had to close it from inside, I just wasn't sure how much latitude/creativity you could apply - it was definitely the one I was most concerned about.  I can't find any rules similar to the Contingency enhancement that would allow this...might be that it's too powerful, or just something they never thought about.  I was really looking for something for a rogue - make a little space to store the trinket, then it pops out when no one's around (hopefully)....it sounds like this may be one effect that is just outside of the realm of EOM.

I included the T:Nature because I imagined fairly involved changes to the clothing - I had assumed that clothing changes in T:Humanoid were 'it grows or shrinks to still fit', and I was looking for 'it changes to the style, cut, color that you need'.

Thanks for the file - I'll check it out.


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## sirwmholder (Feb 13, 2008)

phloog said:
			
		

> ...I included the T:Nature because I imagined fairly involved changes to the clothing - I had assumed that clothing changes in T:Humanoid were 'it grows or shrinks to still fit', and I was looking for 'it changes to the style, cut, color that you need'...



Well, Transform (Nature) changes an energy type to a physical... so I could see you using that to change clothing appearance by transforming the light around you into an outfit over your original garb... however, if you are going to change your appearance I think it would be in the realm of possibility to allow a Transform (Humanoid), Disguise Self, spell to alter your clothing as well... after all clothing makes the man... well so they say .

The only reason I can see Create (Space) breaking the game if you can close it from the outside is if it is used as a death trap.  Use Move (Force) to bull rush an enemy into a 5 x 5 x 5 room with no air for 10 minutes.  Could be a problem.

Just a few thoughts,
William Holder


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## Primitive Screwhead (Feb 13, 2008)

The Transform list is probably the most problematic. I may eventually dust off my project to develop an alt.transform list that works using a list of effects/abilities instead of the {broken} Shapechange route... but will have to see what 4E does *and* get to play in a EoM game  

Regarding the clothing, I allow Transform: Humanoid to do minor alterations to the clothing worn. Basically resizing to fit. If the clothing doesn't fit the new form, then at least 1 MP of Transform: Nature is needed. I use the Create Nature guidelines for how fancy you can get.

The book is silent on whether to use the 'equipment gets morphed/absorbed into the new form unless the new form can wear/weild it' or the 'equipment must be treated seperately than the creature being targeted'. I am in favor of the latter, which means low level transforms tend to leave clothing behind.

For create space:
 I read the text to say that opening/closing the space is a full round action...which can be done by anyone. So no death by locking someone in {unless you KO them first}

 Look at some other options for doing the same basic concept:
 Remove object from sight/presence for 10 minutes:

Move Time 4.5 MP - Time slip for 10 minutes into the future
Illusion Shadow 3, Gen 1 - Invisibility for 10 minutes
Transform Space 8 Gen 1 - change target to an intangible object
Transform Force 1, gen 1 - change object to a shadow of itself

Given that, I think the following would work :
Move Space 1, Move Force 1, Create Space 1, Gen 1 - create opening, teleport object, then close space

This puts it about on par total cost-wize as the other possible options. Limit the target to the weight that the Move Force can handle {in this case 10 lbs} and its a relatively 'balanced' spell. This would allow a Rogue type to walk in, touch the valuable object, and walk back out with the object safely tucked in an extradimensional space.


Finally, I agree.. the only moronic questions are the ones not asked. Feel free to toss your questions here. Sometimes its better than raking over the recent design and development postings!


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## phloog (Feb 14, 2008)

Based on what was said here:

- - I'll probably keep the 1MP T:Nat element in the spell, because I was assuming rather radical transformations, despite the fact that it will always still be 'humanoid clothing' (two arms, two legs, one head, etc.), there will be things like going from a cotton shirt to a burlap tunic, boots to sandals, etc.    Since I'm normally the DM, I try to even when playing stick to a rule of 'rounding against' the player to limit power....so I agree that the T:Hum would probably allow some changes (since otherwise the power could be rather weak due to restrictive clothing - call it the 'Bill Bixby Effect'), I'll pay (and make players pay) for anything beyond minor shifts to the clothes.

- - I'm still kind of torn on the Create Space thing.  It seems to me to be not severely overpowering the list to add the following enhancement/exception to the 'close it from inside' rule:

"Extradimensional Closet (0 MP) - This enhancement may only be selected if the spell targets non-living, inanimate objects that are in the possession of the caster, or not currently held by another.  The extradimensional space closes upon the first item placed into the entrance (IF it will fit in the space beyond), and expels the item upon spell expiration or the command of the caster."

This seems balanced, primarily due to 1) One Item only, 2) No living creatures/death traps, 3) Must be in your hands or unheld (can't steal someone's sword).

Or is it the general consensus that the EFFECT itself is something that should cost more than one MP?  It is cast, then the caster has to be there ten minutes later to retrieve.  I'm trying to imagine 'broken' scenarios...let me think - - I guess if there was some supremely evil device that was going to explode, or that was generating some huge effect on the party they could eliminate it for ten minutes....could I avoid ALL problems by adding a 'only non-magical items' limitation?


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## sirwmholder (Feb 14, 2008)

Primitive Screwhead said:
			
		

> The Transform list is probably the most problematic. I may eventually dust off my project to develop an alt.transform list that works using a list of effects/abilities instead of the {broken} Shapechange route... but will have to see what 4E does *and* get to play in a EoM game



I agree Transform is a bit wonky... then again so are all the polymorph spells in core. If you don't mind sharing your thoughts... I can get it playtested .



			
				Primitive Screwhead said:
			
		

> Regarding the clothing, I allow Transform: Humanoid to do minor alterations to the clothing worn. Basically resizing to fit. If the clothing doesn't fit the new form, then at least 1 MP of Transform: Nature is needed. I use the Create Nature guidelines for how fancy you can get.



I can definitely see a Create (Nature) spell to make new clothing for your new form to wear... however Transform (Nature) only has the function to turn an energy (light, sound, fire, etc.) into a solid (stone, silk shirt, wooden shield, etc.).  I can't seem to find were you need Transform (Nature) to change silk to burlap or what have you.



			
				Primitive Screwhead said:
			
		

> The book is silent on whether to use the 'equipment gets morphed/absorbed into the new form unless the new form can wear/weild it' or the 'equipment must be treated seperately than the creature being targeted'. I am in favor of the latter, which means low level transforms tend to leave clothing behind.



This is actually included in the text... 







			
				EoM pg. 79 said:
			
		

> If you transform a creature into another creature, its gear adapts to an appropriate form if there is one. Other items are subsumed into the new form, such as weapons if the form has no hands with which to wield them. Also, as a default, when creatures change into other creatures, they keep their original mind.






			
				Primitive Screwhead said:
			
		

> For create space:
> I read the text to say that opening/closing the space is a full round action...which can be done by anyone. So no death by locking someone in {unless you KO them first}...



Odd I read that 'you' as being 'the caster'... since the line just before it says, "You create the entrance anywhere within range."  The death trap would only function if the caster could close it from the outside that's why you need to be inside to close it.



			
				Primitive Screwhead said:
			
		

> _...snip really good suggestions..._



  I really do like the idea of moving an item into the future to be retrieved later... very Bill & Ted like .



			
				phloog said:
			
		

> ..."Extradimensional Closet (0 MP)...



I really like this idea... though for a cantrip effect I would limit it to nonmagical items. You've already gave me a great idea for a future adventure... involving a bread crumb trail using this spell effect and a captured Mage.

Hope this helps more than hinders ,
William Holder


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## Primitive Screwhead (Feb 14, 2008)

Sir William,
  I was attempting to parse Upper Krusts monster builder into discrete PHB2 like changes. The project turned into too much of a time-hog given my current pace at work. When that settles down, around Nov timeframe, I will probably be looking at converting the WoBS campaign into 4E 

EoM Pg 79.. ooops, missed that!

re: 'You...' I think its odd, altho grammatically correct, to read you = caster. I prefer a dimensional space that can be opened/closed by anyone. This neatly voids the death trap use

ploog, I like your extradimensional closet idea.. I was operating under the assumption that the Rogue/Mage would have the space attached to him/her and would be able to walk away.

One 'broken' use springs immediately to mind {just cause I think that way...  }
 Imagine a group of heroes advancing through a dungeon, _closeting_ the doors the party can't pick or break down...


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## phloog (Feb 14, 2008)

I guess I would trust my DM to not allow people to 'closet' doors - I can fix two problems mentioned by adding 'non-magical' as a requirement, and also by stating that the object must be free and unanchored, not just unheld or unpossessed.  Again, I'm less worried about this because I as a player would never try to pull nonsense like this, and I as a DM would promptly do something quite terrible to a player who suggested this approach as anything but a joke.

Also, I would assume that to put something into the space, it would need to actually go into the space - it wouldn't be 'sucked in' - - so the only way to get the door into the space would be if it was completely contained in the space - otherwise it can't close...and the only way to do that would be to not only open, but REMOVE the door.

As far as Transform: Nature only being energy to matter, I disagree.  My revised book says on page 79 that "if you want to turn a pumpkin into a carriage, use Transform
Nature..."  -  this to me would imply that turning ANY element into something that could be considered Nature would require T:N.  

Granted, if you WANTED to transform force into matter you'd need the Matter enhancement, and to get that you need Transform: Nature...

So you can only do this force>>matter change with T:N, but this is not the ONLY thing that Transform: Nature can do.  

My reading is that if the END result of the transformation is something that could be considered Nature (which I guess is wood, cloth, plants that aren't creatures, non-metal stuff, etc.), then it's T:N.

Hopping back and forth on topics here.  I would definitely believe that the OPENING of the Create Space is static...and in fact I think the only way you would be able to carry it with you would be through the addition of Move Force 1, to move the 'area of effect'. 

BUT upon looking again I think that you CANNOT take the doorway to the extra-D space with you, because the true 'area of effect' is not the opening, but the space in the other dimension - - so if you wanted to waste 1 MP to move an extradimensional space to a different part of the other dimension you could, but the opening to that extra-D space from this world is still where you originally made it - net effect = nothing.  Not sure what this means in terms of creating a bag of holding, but that's a different set of rules.


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## Primitive Screwhead (Feb 14, 2008)

I see the Bag of Holding as the same rules.. which may be part of the difference in opinion here 

Adding the piece about the caster physcially moving the object into the stationary _closet_ makes me agree that this would be a 0MP cantrip... but I would add a cost of 1MP to get the closet to close when an item is put inside. 

But I don't see the rules working this way. I see the opening appearing either in a stationary point in space {needing Move Force to change its location} or 'mounted' on something..ala Bag of Holding.

This reading allows me to emulate on of my prior PC's favorite magic items.. a Tower Shield that held a Magnificent Mansion on the interior side


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## phloog (Feb 15, 2008)

Primitive Screwhead said:
			
		

> I see the Bag of Holding as the same rules.. which may be part of the difference in opinion here
> 
> Adding the piece about the caster physcially moving the object into the stationary _closet_ makes me agree that this would be a 0MP cantrip... but I would add a cost of 1MP to get the closet to close when an item is put inside.
> 
> ...




I guess I could see the logic of allowing it to be essentially targeted (the opening appears on object X) - - I only assumed a stationary opening to avoid overpowering it - a ten minute bag of holding seems like it would let you get away with a lot.

I could also see making the 'closet' a 1MP enhancement rather than 0mp...I'll have to mull it over.


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## sirwmholder (Feb 15, 2008)

phloog said:
			
		

> I guess I could see the logic of allowing it to be essentially targeted (the opening appears on object X) - - I only assumed a stationary opening to avoid overpowering it - a ten minute bag of holding seems like it would let you get away with a lot.
> 
> I could also see making the 'closet' a 1MP enhancement rather than 0mp...I'll have to mull it over.



Keep in mind... 







			
				Bag of Extradimensionality - EoM pg.89 said:
			
		

> . This small pouch is enchanted with Create Space 0/Gen 1, and has an interior about as big as a 5-ft. cube., and can thus hold much more than would appear possible.
> Market value – 1,000 gp.



So moving the opening if it is anchored on an object seems to fall in line with a Cantrip ability.

Hope this helps,
William Holder


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## sirwmholder (Feb 15, 2008)

phloog said:
			
		

> ...As far as Transform: Nature only being energy to matter, I disagree.  My revised book says on page 79 that "if you want to turn a pumpkin into a carriage, use Transform Nature..."  -  this to me would imply that turning ANY element into something that could be considered Nature would require T:N.
> 
> Granted, if you WANTED to transform force into matter you'd need the Matter enhancement, and to get that you need Transform: Nature...
> 
> ...



Ah, I can see that now... please forgive my ramblings above . And it has given me something to ponder... I'll start that in a new thread .

William Holder


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## phloog (Feb 15, 2008)

Excellent feedback, all.  I believe that I will be landing on the 1MP enhancement that allows a closet for only non-magical, unattended or unheld non-living objects that closes on entry. 

If targeted at a point in space/within range, it is immovable, but with the option to attach it to another object, provided that the opening is no larger than the surface of the object to which the closet spell is bound (no dropping a full-sized statue of Admiral Schmappfuzz into a closet that's attached to a gold piece (unless it's a gold piece from the Mammoth Realms of Brapp, but who can afford one of those?))

I like it...it adds utility at the cost of being only usable for one item.


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