# [Epic 20] Diablos Ex Machina



## Eidalac (Nov 28, 2007)

NOTE:
We've now got more than 8 applicants (which is the limit of how many I'll start the game with), so please be advised that if I have to pick, I'll be doing so based on Concept 1st, Execution 2nd and Order of Application 3rd.

[D]-[/D]

There is both good and evil in the vastness of the plans, two forces locked in a stalemate since the days were recorded.  When a rare champion or exemplar arises, it is soon enough met with an opposing force and both are lessened, if not destroyed.

That is the way of things.

Most of the time.

Only most.

A handful of times across the vastness of history, a great power has arose without a suitable rival to check.  Normally, this means the power is isolated and soon enough, in the grand scheme of things, weakens and fades.

Most of the time.

A rare few powers find a way to thrive without drawing to much attention, drawing enough challengers to spur them onward without facing down a losing battle.

And they aren't always good.

Because, every once in a while, evil wins.

Wins Big.

That's when things get interesting.

[D]-[/D]

You are evil.

You are Powerful.

No mortal has ever walked where you now stand, no one could ever so much as dream of the power you wield now.  You are at the zenith.

The apex.

The peak.

There is nowhere to go.

There is no challenge left.

No rivals.

Nothing.

All that is left is to wait for the cold hands of time to strip you down to the bone.

Even you have no power to stave off time, and there is no greater power you can gain for yourself.

Only bleakness looms for you, the mightiest of the mighty...

Until the messenger arrived.  He was nothing more than a shadow, and his arrival in darkness, despite penetrating your own defenses, was hardly an impressive magic.  You would have killed him, if there were substance to kill, which bought him time enough to speak.

Speak he did, and for some reason, you listened.  What no magic could compel of you, his words still nearly forced you to hear him.

"There is only one way forward for you, to seek the Paths of Power and the Lambent Flame.  For a price, I can show you the way, though it is up to you to walk beyond the door.  Seek the City of Brass, and the house of Melchoir.  That shall be the beginning of this story."

[D]-[/D]

I had good fun with this concept once upon another time, so I figure I'll give it a go.

The name of the game is Diablos Ex Machina, and it's all about the bad guys.  The kind of people who would steal lunch money.

From Darth Vader.

[D]-[/D]

Setting:  "Planar" I know a bit of planescape, but only a bit.

Stats:  32 point buy, + level bonuses.

Level:  20th

LA:  Let's say 5 max.  It's generally problematic beyond that point.

Alignment:  Non-good is my only hard requirement - BUT - *Lawfull and Evil characters will get more favorable treatment*.  No complainants if you play CN and some powerful devil turns you into a monkey for being Chaotic.  That's the breaks.

**NOTE**
If you can't be a team player, you will die.  I will literally give you Super Aids (with levels of Cancer Mage) if you try to use Evil as a reason to play like an ass or generally make the game something other than fun.

Races:  I'm pretty much open to anything in this regard, just check the sources with me in case it's something I don't have.

Classes:  See above.  

Wealth:  Standard.

XP:  190,000 + (1,000 * 1d10)

Brokenness:  If you play a broken character, I will have to use even more broken monsters and make zombie jesus cry.  You don't want that.  Because then Buddha will come and beat the reincarnations out of you.

House Rules:  Oh hells yeah there will be house rules.  But I'll save them for another post.

Epic Levels:  I'm not going to be using the standard epic rules, but a variant based on the E6 concept.  But that's a bridge to cross when we get to it.


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## Eidalac (Nov 28, 2007)

*House and Variant Rules*


Skills as Saves
Racial Abilities It won't be 100% like that, but you'll get the general idea of it.[sblock=Warforged]<otherwise same as core>
• 4th level ability: Improved Damage Reduction, an experience warforged has learned to use it's metal plating to absorb blows, and instinctively shifts his body to do so.
• 8th level ability: Enhanced Fortification, more time in the world has taught the warforged the places it does not want to get struck. With a few minor modifications to it's body, along with an improved sense of awareness, the warforged now has a 50% chance to negate a critical hit or precision based damage.
• 12th level ability: +1 bonus to Constitution or Strength
• 16th level ability: Fluidity, by now the warforged has learned to move in a more fluid and natural way, compensating from imperfections in it's base design. A warforged with either the Adamantine Body or Mithral Body feat has it's armor check penalty reduced by 1 and it's max dexterity bonus increased by 1.
A warforged without these feats has it's base land speed increased by 10 feet.
In either case, the warforged's arcane spell failure chance is reduced by 5%.
• 20th level ability: +1 bonus to Constitution or Strength[/sblock]
[sblock="Ogre"]• 8th level ability: Power Attack
• 12th level ability: Improved Darvision, an ogre's eyes learn to make out more detail and adjust even more to the darkness letting him add another 60 feet to his Darkvision range.
• 16th level ability: Smash; When taking the full attack option to make a melee attack, an ogre can forgo interative attacks, making only a single attack for which his normal strength bonus is doubled, as is any damage bonus from Power Attack.[/sblock]
Weapon Group Feats 
Armor as DR 
Vitality and Wound Points I will have to tweak this a bit, as I've found that at high levels Fort saves are so high that it can take *Days* for something to die once you get it to 0 WP.


Mmm.  That *should* be everything.


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## OnlytheStrong (Nov 28, 2007)

I am interested. I keep changing my mind about class' though. I decided to wait and see what people are choosing, then I will find a spot that I believe I can fit in.


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Nov 28, 2007)

I am intrigued.

I've got a true neutral shapeshifter (Druid) from an old epic game that never really got off the ground.  I could repaint him as 'nature red in tooth and claw' to suit evilitude a bit more and update him to 3.5.


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## Eidalac (Nov 28, 2007)

Ok, got the house rules posted.  Some tweaking remains, but that should get you the general ideas.

One of the original characters in the first DEM was a druid lich.  Also had the priest of a nasty sun-god as well as a most excellent fiendish warforged (backstory was he started as a suit of armor that became sentient, much to the horror of the guy wearing him at the time.)


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## Shayuri (Nov 28, 2007)

It sounds kind of interesting, but I dunno about the evil thing.

I'll think about it...see if I get any inspirations.

...

And of course, the moment I post that, I get an idea. 

How about a Warforged Warmage? An ancient "living" weapon. I like the warmage idea, but I'd ask if I can use the Eclectic Learning option from PHB2...it lets you learn non-evocation spells with Advanced learning, but at a higher spell level...so say, Invisibility would be a 3rd level spell to the warmage and selectable only with the Advanced Learning ability.

If that rankles, perhaps a Duskblade?

The idea is that the magic manifests as weapons that are hidden in his body. To cast Scorching Ray, for example, he extends a little nozzle, which then shoots fire. And so on. If you've ever seen the end of Iron Giant, you know what I'm going for.


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## Eidalac (Nov 28, 2007)

Warmage & Eclectic Learning is fine by me - I'm not terribly fond of Duskblades.

I do like the 'living weapon idea'.


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## Shayuri (Nov 28, 2007)

Yar, I wanted a warmage anyway, so that works. 

The concept is that he's some ancient civilization's doomsday device. A sentient, ageless engine of destruction...a final "screwya" to whatever force destroyed the civilization in the first place.

Being sentient, it recognizes that the destruction that is its purpose cannot be done haphazardly or without restraint...attempting it would result in its own destruction, and the termination of its mission. As such, it seeks out scenarios and situations where causing massive loss of life and property is either "legitimate" (to someone, somewhere), or at least can be gotten away with. Technically its mission is to cause as much destruction as is possible...which might extend all the way up to the unmaking of the multiverse.

It hasn't decided yet.


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Nov 28, 2007)

Alright, still pulling the mechanical parts together but the character would essentially be the ultimate predator.  Ageless (as a benefit of 10 levels of Master of Many Forms) and deadly with a love of travel and hunting everything she considers prey - which basically amounts to everything at this point.

Here's a question: How would you feel about using Fractional BAB.  If I went Druid 5/Master of Many Forms 10/Warshaper 5 I'd have 20 levels of 3/4 BAB classes but because of how .75 lines up I'd only get BAB +13, and if I can get 15 I'd qualify for Improved Rapidstrike, which would be excellent for a shapeshifter type.


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## OnlytheStrong (Nov 28, 2007)

I think I'd like to play a Fighter, just a plain ol pure fighter.

**edit** I can't decide though between orc, human, or going for something like a giant.  I'd like to be big and evil.


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Nov 28, 2007)

You should bear in mind that most giants have an ECL nearly at 20, so you'd only get a few class levels.


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## OnlytheStrong (Nov 28, 2007)

I want to play an Ogre! lol, I spent like the whole time looking for a monster type that would be interesting to play, but have a LA of less than 5. Ogre's LA is +2, which I can live with. Apparently he'll be real strong, but slow and stupid lol. Should make for interesting RP I would think.


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Nov 28, 2007)

Don't forget the racial HD.  Ogres work out to ECL 6, I believe.  You could still slap 14 levels of PC on top, though.

Oh, and Eidelac: I'm just checking the mechanics of the stat bonuses offered in those 20 level race progressions you listed: would those only apply to physical stats in base form or would they carry over to whatever I was shaped like at the time?


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## OnlytheStrong (Nov 28, 2007)

Would the ECL change for an ogre since the stats changed? Instead of +10 to strength it's now +4.  I may just go with a human after all. No point in letting 6 levels go to waste lol.


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Nov 28, 2007)

Where are you getting +4 strength for ogres?  Are you possibly confusing them with Orcs?


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## OnlytheStrong (Nov 28, 2007)

LOL yeah I did read the Orc line! I imagine ogre would be similar to orcs with how they progress, but could be way off.


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## Eidalac (Nov 28, 2007)

Shayuri:
Sounds interesting.  I can see a possible scenario - having sterilized your own world, you eventually discovered a means of planar travel only to be confronted with the shear scale of the planes.  With your current configuration, you calculated that life could recolonize areas faster than you could sterilize them, and that's not even taking into account the possibility of resistance.

I need to dig up my variant 'ageless' aging rules I made for characters who don't suffer aging penalties.  Basically, it replaces the aging stat bonuses with extra skill points, so it's possible to play something truly ancient without having imbalanced stats.

Nac:
Fractional bonuses look ok for me.

As for the bonuses, I'm probably going to make them all just +1 in place of +2, but they are treated just like level increase stats, so they would work with shapeshifting just like normal, base stats.

OnlytheStrong:
Pure fighter.  I like pure fighters.

As for Ogre... I'll allow it.

And don't worry about the LA; just the Racial HD.  With the racial bonuses I'll be using, the trade off is that something like an Ogre will get weaker/less bonuses than a 'normal' race.


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Nov 28, 2007)

Well to be perfectly honest I won't be using my mental stats too much - I'm only casting as a Druid 5, I'm a combat primary - so the ageless thing is mainly for flavor.

As for the stat bumps, I'll probably end up putting everything in mental stats (for the little good it'll do me on skill checks etc.) since I'll be spending almost all my time in alternate forms (between Warshaper and Master of Many Forms I'll have something like 220 hours of wild shape a day and the ability to swap forms while wild shaped without spending a new use).


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## Shayuri (Nov 28, 2007)

Cool idea...confronted with the infinite planes, it would have to rethink its objectives.

As for the ageless thing, I wasn't thinking of getting bonuses. I figure it probably spent a good long time on a blasted rock of a world, not really learning anything new or doing anything to merit bonuses. It wasn't until it somehow got into the planes that it started learning from new experiences again...


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## OnlytheStrong (Nov 28, 2007)

I'm trying to get an image of the Ogre in my head before I do anything else. I keep coming back to the "thought-smash" concept. I'd like it to be alittle more involved than that, but I'm thinking he could just be a big bully. _Smashes the entire room, then shrugs_ Food sucked


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## Eidalac (Nov 28, 2007)

Ok, posted racial progressions for the Ogre and Warforged.

As for aging, I can't find it right now, but the basics of it was that at each age category you picked 1 stat and got skill points equal to your (non-magical) bonus in that stat that can only be spent on skills linked to that stat (treated as class skills for cost purposes).

So, for an example, a 375 year old elf lich with a 22 base int who always picked Int skills would gain a total of 18 bonus skill points in int based skills.

It was designed to capture the flavor of being really old without giving too much.


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## Eidalac (Nov 28, 2007)

OnlytheStrong:
Once there was a prince, a warrior of great abilities.  Blessed with a strong arm, a quick mind and a statuesque contanance, he had everything.

However, he was also terribly arrogant.  While far from a monster, he held himself above the common man.  His station was not to be challenged or questioned - the rabble should be grateful to live in his service.

One night, a terrible winter storm pounded the land, an a weathered old crone came, begging for warmth and shelter.

The stables, lavish by the standards of a commoner, would have been enough to spare her the killing cold that night, but the prince mocked the old woman, and shut her out into a storm he himself would have been hard pressed to endure.

The next day she was found, frozen to death outside.

The prince ordered the unseemly body to be dumped in the woods, so he would neither have to see nor smell it.

At this final insult, the body of the crone split like an egg, out of which rose the true form of the woman, a witch whose beauty and presence sent even the arrogant prince to his knees, struggling to issue forth some plea for his actions.

The witch heard none of it, cursing the prince to take the physical form of the beast he truly was, to live as a monster till he earned the right to be a human.


Unfortunately, unlike in the commonly told tales, the prince went quite mad, slaying anyone who he could catch, venting a terrible rage on the lands and all who might have saved him.

As each year passed, the once human part of his mind further twisted, leaving only the brutal monster, driven by a hate he no longer understands...


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## ethandrew (Nov 28, 2007)

Hmmmmmmm. 20th level, eh? I might like to go the Wizard Route. Straight up full Wizard Progression, maybe Master Specialist (CM) and Archmage (DMG). I might consider doing some LA 1-2 Race, but I'm not sure. Basically, I am expressing interesting in an Arcanist.

Edit: I'm thinking maybe he can be in the progressive stages of Lichdom. Or perhaps he has visions of divinity, overthrowing the god with his current desired portfolio. Mulling things over...


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Nov 28, 2007)

How many people are you planning on taking Eidelac?  We should probably fit a divine caster in here somewhere.


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## Eidalac (Nov 28, 2007)

I usually aim for 6 or so PCs.  I also presume that 2 will drop out after a short time, so 8 is the most I like to work with.  Especially at this level, it gets hard to run things with more than that.


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## OnlytheStrong (Nov 29, 2007)

That's a pretty good story. Got some Greek Mythology in you huh?  So my ogre _was_ a prince? I got a pretty good evil concept for him going lol. It would fit into his background story too. He'd be the kind of guy that would rescue a farmer's house or  his fields, then turn around and burn the house or steal his grain. Pretty much an ass. I am pretty for sure that even though he'll be basically a moron, he'll be smart enough to know not to piss off a level 20 wizard


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## OnlytheStrong (Nov 29, 2007)

Sorry for the double post, but had a question. His racial HD is something like 4 (I have to look it up in a second), so he will start out at level 5? You mentioned earlier to ignore the LA, so that is where I'm coming up with that at. I don't want to be wrong though lol.


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## Douane (Nov 29, 2007)

Is there a place for mounts in the campaign ? (Was thinking about a Targi ranger/blackguard.)


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Nov 29, 2007)

It means you have to take 4 level of Ogre HD and then you can take 16 levels of normal classes.

[sblock=Eidelac]
I had a few quick questions about the post-20 stuff, because it kind of factors into the viability of this build.  Specifically, are you planning to just use a lot of feats and not grant HD past 20 (that sounded like what you meant when you said E6-like)?  Basically if you aren't planning on doing epic class progression for things like the Master of Many Forms, I was wondering if I could work out some feats with you to continue to expand shapechanging abilities past 20th level.  The primary things I'd be trying to get would be: different forms (I still would lack Undead, Construct and Outsider) and supernatural and/or spell-like abilities (for point of reference, at high enough levels straight druids can mimic Su and Sp abilities of elementals, and a lot of the epic feats that grant new types of forms also grant their supernatural abilities.  Obviously the 'new form type' feats aren't that great for me, since I already have those types via Master of Many Forms, so I was wondering if I put together a few feats to make up the 'epic progression' for shapeshifting.
[/sblock]


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## OnlytheStrong (Nov 29, 2007)

Thanks what I assumed. I'm starting to build my character. Right now (no equipment) he's staring at a +10 mod to strength, but is about as charismatic as a sponge.  

**edit** Another question. How do the skills work with a monster character? Ogres get 7x(2+int mod) or do I just go off of the fighter levels? Sorry for the rookie questions, first time I've gotten to play a monster!


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## Eidalac (Nov 29, 2007)

OnlytheStrong:
Beauty and the Beast, actually.  Though I'm sure that's got some Greek Myth in it.

Anyway, yeah, Ogres have 4 racial HD, so at ECL 20, he'll have 16 class levels.  Or, in other words, he'll be an Ogre 4, Fighter 16.

Douane:
Hrm.  The campaign only exists as an outline in my head, so very little of it is fixed.  However, there will be a good number of open travel segments that I'm sure of, so there will be at least some role for a mount.  I can't really promise more than that.

And I'm not familiar with Targi.


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## Eidalac (Nov 29, 2007)

Nac:
While I'm not 100% sure of the progression I'll be using, you are correct in that there won't be any class level progression beyond 20th, much as in e6.  As such, I'm certainly open to the equivalent of 'Capstone'/'Epic'/'Prestige' type feats that expand on class abilities.


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## Douane (Nov 29, 2007)

Eidalac said:
			
		

> Douane:
> Hrm.  The campaign only exists as an outline in my head, so very little of it is fixed.  However, there will be a good number of open travel segments that I'm sure of, so there will be at least some role for a mount.  I can't really promise more than that.




Thanks! Will have think a bit more about the concept before committing. (It would be a real shame to have a 12HD fiendish warhorse and not being able to use it.  )




> And I'm not familiar with Targi.




Oops! That shouldn't have been in there as it was part of the concept, but not the game mechanics. (Targi = singular of Tuareg)


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Nov 29, 2007)

[sblock=Eidelac]
Great, I'll work up some 'capstone'-style feats based on Master of Many Forms and maybe one or two based on Warshaper since those are the PrCs I'll have maxed out at 20th level.  Basic ideas are probably going to involve access to supernatural abilities, increased HD cap for shapeshifting, new types of forms, maybe expanding the abilities of Warshaper a bit too.
[/sblock]


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## OnlytheStrong (Nov 29, 2007)

Rookie monster question:  With the skill set, should I ignore the skill points that are given for being a ogre? Or simply add the other 4 levels as if they were fighter levels? I may be totally off base, but I would much rather post it right the first time then totally botch it.

Think I figured it out, but I would still like the explaination to be sure. The way I figured it was that for an ogre it's 7x(2+int) [4HD]  so a fighter at 4th level would be the exact same, given that he starts at 4x(2+int).  So I basically treat it as if I'm a level 20 fighter, but ONLY for the basis of skills points.


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Nov 29, 2007)

The Ogre entry in the d20srd should list what skills are class skills for ogres, and how many skill points they get.

Just take skill points at 1st level equal to a class that gets the same number as you (I think ogres get 2+int, so as many skill points as a fighter).  You count as favored skills anything that's on the ogre list.

After that, you get the full +10 skill points for leveling.


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## OnlytheStrong (Nov 29, 2007)

The skills seem to be different for this campaign. The 10+int mod only applies to your first level, and you get 1 skill point at each level thereafter. Your class does help with giving you extra skill points though. The way I figured it up, I should have 18 for my 10+int + level (10 - 2 + 10)


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Nov 29, 2007)

You would get 10+int (as a fighter) at first level, and then 1 per two levels beyond that (10 more since racial HD should count towards skills, I believe).  So a total of 20+int.


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## OnlytheStrong (Nov 29, 2007)

I'm assuming its Int mod........or your actual int score?


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## Eidalac (Nov 29, 2007)

For skill purposes, treat the Ogre HD as Fighter Levels, just with a different set of class skills.  IE, just treat yourself as a 20th level fighter for figuring your total number of skill points.

Net is, you get 21+(int mod) skill points.


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## OnlytheStrong (Nov 29, 2007)

Help out a guy who thinks too much and confuses himself (or thinks too little)

Int mod = -2

21-2= 19

What I'm struggling with is the S, G, A, P, U rankings. I'm going to through my skills into Warcraft and Athletics. I'd like as high a rank as I could in Warcraft, secondary is Athletics.


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## Douane (Nov 29, 2007)

Eidalac said:
			
		

> For skill purposes, treat the Ogre HD as Fighter Levels, just with a different set of class skills.  IE, just treat yourself as a 20th level fighter for figuring your total number of skill points.
> 
> Net is, you get 21+(int mod) skill points.




Just to get the hang  of the system: Shouldn't that be 23 + Int ?

10 (Fighter) + 10 (level bonus 2,4,6,8,10,12,14,16,18,20) +3 (Fighter 7,13,19)


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## OnlytheStrong (Nov 29, 2007)

I haven't gotten the hang of it yet, but skills are all I am missing. I have the feats and everything (I hope Complete Warrior is allowed) Oh, I'm missing Vitality Points too.


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## Douane (Nov 29, 2007)

OnlytheStrong said:
			
		

> Help out a guy who thinks too much and confuses himself (or thinks too little)
> 
> Int mod = -2
> 
> ...




I think the key is this chart:


```
[B]Skill Cost	Skill Rating[/B]
0 skill points	Untrained	
1 skill point	Poor
2 skill points	Average
3 skill points	Good
4 skill points	Supreme
```


You have 19 (or 21, if I am correct) skill "points". If you want to excel at Warcraft and Athletics, put 4 skill points into each to learn these two skills at level "Supreme" (which reduces your remaining to skill points to 11 (or 13) ).

According to this chart


```
[B]Skill Rating Bonuses[/B]
Level	Sprm	Good	Avrg	Poor 	Untrnd
1	+4	+3	+2	+1	+0
2	+5	+4	+3	+1	+0
3	+6	+5	+3	+2	+0
4	+7	+6	+4	+2	+1
5	+8	+6	+4	+3	+1
6	+9	+7	+5	+3	+1
7	+10	+8	+5	+3	+2
8	+11	+9	+6	+4	+2
9	+12	+9	+6	+4	+2
10	+13	+10	+7	+5	+3
11	+14	+11	+7	+5	+3
12	+15	+12	+8	+6	+3
13	+16	+12	+8	+6	+4
14	+17	+13	+9	+6	+4
15	+18	+14	+9	+7	+4
16	+19	+15	+10	+7	+5
17	+20	+15	+10	+8	+5
18	+21	+16	+11	+8	+5
19	+22	+17	+11	+9	+6
20	+23	+18	+12	+9	+6
```

you now have a +23 bonus in Warcraft and Athletics.  (Skill level "supreme" (first column) and level 20.)


Does this help?


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## OnlytheStrong (Nov 29, 2007)

Tons! Ty.


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## Douane (Nov 29, 2007)

Stop the presses!!!


"At first level when characters are buying their skills they get a bonus to buying their class skills. Class skills get a free skill point added to them when bought."


So you don't have to spend 4 skill points for Warcraft and Athletics, but only three! (Both are class skills for fighters.=


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## Shayuri (Nov 29, 2007)

Question!

If I take Adamantine Body, and the feat that lets me cast without spell fail in heavy armor, how does that interact with:

A) Armor as DR. Adamantine armor already gives DR...

B) DR from feats and/or class abilities.

Also!

Do you allow Magic Item Compendium or Spell Compendium as sources?


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## OnlytheStrong (Nov 29, 2007)

This is what I have so far. I was curious as to if there is a limit as to how much money we can spend on any one item and what books we can use. I used the Complete Warrior book to grab some feats. When I post the actual character I will include the page numbers and descriptions of the non-core feats. 


[sblock=Ogre (working on the name still)]

Str: 16 +10 racial +4 level adjustment = 30    +10 mod
Dex: 12 -2 racial  = 10  +0 mod
Con: 16 +4 racial = 20  +5 mod
Int: 10 - 4 racial =   6   -2 mod
Wis: 12
Cha: 10 - 4 racial = 6    -2 mod

Feats: 16 (9 fighter bonus + 2 racial + 5 levels)
Cleave
Greater Cleave
Quick Draw
Weapon Focus x2 (weapon tbd)
Great Weapon Focus x2 (weapons tbd)
Weapon Specialization x2 (weapons tbd)
Power Critical   (C.W)
Improved Toughness  (C.W)
Improved Bull Rush
Shock Trooper   (C.W)
Improved Sunder
Combat Brute   (C.W)
Three Mountains  (C.W)

Weapon Proficiency: Basic Weapons + any 4
Heavy Blades
Flails
Maces
Spears and Lances

Skills: (when I figure it out I'll post them lol)

Racial Abilities:
Power Attack
Smash
Improved Darkvision

[/sblock]


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## Douane (Nov 29, 2007)

After some deliberation I've come up with:

Half-Dragon (Red) Scout 8/Fighter 4/Tempest 5


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## OnlytheStrong (Nov 29, 2007)

We're a group of monsters! Just keep your breath weapon away from me. Okay, I'm new to playing anything this high of level, so please, forgive my idiot questions. A suit of +10 Full Plate Armor would cost 388,300gp? I am waiting for the offical rulings before I buy anything, but I was just curious. I figure armor-wise I will need alittle help with spell resistance. 

I can't decide between one handed and two handed weapons lol. Good thing we have alittle bit of time to decide these tough choices.


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## Douane (Nov 29, 2007)

Str 30 just "screams" for a greatsword-wielding, power-attacking ogre, doesn't it?


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Nov 29, 2007)

Few things:

Firstly, your armor would be 101,650 for +10 full plate, but you can't actually have a bonus above +5 so it would have to be +5 with an additional +5 in special abilities (my personal recommendation: +5 Heavy Fortified Full Plate, it's expensive but it makes you immune to crits and sneak attacks).

Secondly, you definitely need to look in the PHB, there's a lot of new fighter feats.  You can't quite take the highest level one (requires Fighter 18), but you can take Melee Weapon Mastery (apply focus and specialization to all weapons of one damage type, i.e. slashing, piercing or bludgeoning), and one of the damage-type specific level 14 feats.  Crushing Strike gives you +1 to hit with a bludgeoning weapon for every previous hit you've scored in that round (cumulative).  Driving Attack lets you bull rush someone you hit with a piercing weapon, using your damage instead of your strength for the check and knocking them prone if you go more than 10 feet.  Slashing Flurry gives you an extra attack with a slashing weapon, but gives a -5 to all attacks for a round.


----------



## Eidalac (Nov 29, 2007)

Douane said:
			
		

> Just to get the hang  of the system: Shouldn't that be 23 + Int ?
> 
> 10 (Fighter) + 10 (level bonus 2,4,6,8,10,12,14,16,18,20) +3 (Fighter 7,13,19)




Since the level bonus comes from class levels, he wouldn't get the points from 18 & 20, hence the 21 I'm getting.

HOWEVER,

Counting the HD as class levels would be a valid reading as well, and if you all think that is easier to work with, I'm fine doing it that way.



> I hope Complete Warrior is allowed




Yup, I have all the complete books.



> Oh, I'm missing Vitality Points too




Hit points == vitality points.  Different name, identical otherwise.  I just call them HP for the sake of simplicity even when using the Vitality variant.



> If I take Adamantine Body, and the feat that lets me cast without spell fail in heavy armor, how does that interact with:




RAW, you only get the highest DR in a given situation if you have more than one source.  That kinda stinks in this case, so how about:

You get the +4 AC and a DR 5/-.  I figure a 1/- is pretty much as good as 2/Adamantine.

DR from other sources stacks with the armor DR If it's untyped - so the DR a barbarian gains would fully stack with the DR that armor grants, since it's the same type (untyped).



> Do you allow Magic Item Compendium or Spell Compendium as sources




MIC I have, though I've only skimmed over it, so I'll have to review anything form it.

SC I do not have.



> I was curious as to if there is a limit as to how much money we can spend on any one item and what books we can use.




No limit no.  BUT, I strongly advise you to keep to a cap of ~25% for a single item with a 10-15% cap on all other items.  Putting all your resources into a single item can be very, very, very, very bad.

But it's your call.



> Half-Dragon (Red) Scout 8/Fighter 4/Tempest 5




Sounds neat-o.


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## Eidalac (Nov 29, 2007)

Nac Mac Feegle said:
			
		

> Firstly, your armor would be 101,650 for +10 full plate, but you can't actually have a bonus above +5 so it would have to be +5 with an additional +5 in special abilities.




Quite correct.



			
				Nac Mac Feegle said:
			
		

> Secondly, you definitely need to look in the PHB




PHB II is what I think you mean.



> Str 30 just "screams" for a greatsword-wielding, power-attacking ogre, doesn't it?




Indeed, and don't forget the 18th level racial ability - only make one attack in a full round, but with a 2-hander, that'll make your str bonus to damage x4 (= +40), plus it doubles the damage of power attack.


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Nov 29, 2007)

You're right, I did mean PHB2.

Alright, here are the prototype stats for my shapeshifter.  I'm a little heavily invested in one item, but I only have so many slots that will carry over to any form I want, so I needed to squeeze stuff here and there.

Not much in the way of combat stats present currently, because almost no combat will be done while in human form.  I'll work out the AC, saves, HP and attack routines of her most common 'combat forms' in a bit.

[sblock=Stats]
Lilith
Female Human Druid 5/Master of Many Forms 10/Warshaper 5
Alignment: NE
XP: 190,000+

Str: 22 (+6) [4 points, +4 Warshaper, +6 item]
Dex: 18 (+4) [4 points, +6 item] 
Con: 22 (+6) [4 points, +4 Warshaper, +6 item]
Int: 20 (+5) [6 points, +6 item]
Wis: 20 (+5) [6 points, +6 item]
Cha: 28 (+9) [8 points, +7 level, +6 item]

Abilities when Shifted:
Str: As Creature +10 [+4 Warshaper, +6 Item]
Dex: As Creature +6 [+6 Item]
Con: As Creature +10 [+4 Warshaper, +6 Item]
Int: 20
Wis: 20
Cha: 28

Class Abilities:  Nature Sense, Wild Empathy, Woodland Stride, Trackless Step, Resist Nature's Lure, Wild Shape 11 times/day, Shifter's Speech, Fast Wild Shape, Improved Wild Shape (Diminutive through Gargantuan, Animal, Humanoid, Giant, Monstrous Humanoid, Fey, Vermin, Aberration, Plant, Ooze, Elemental, Dragon), Extraordinary Wild Shape, Evershifting Form, Morphic Immunities, Morphic Weapons, Morphic Body, Morphic Reach, Morphic Healing, Multimorph.

Hit Dice: 20d8 + 120 (varies by shape)
HP: 213 (varies by shape)
AC: 35 (+9 Armor, +7 Shield, +4 Dex, +5 Deflection from NA), Touch 19, FF 30.  Varies by shape.
Init: +4 (+4 Dex, varies by shape)
Speed: 30ft (varies by shape)

Saves:
 Fortitude +21 [+15 base, +6 Con] (varies by shape)
 Reflex +12 [+8 base, +4 Dex] (varies by shape)
 Will +13 [+8 base, +5 Wis]

BAB/Grapple: +15/+21 (varies by shape)
 Attack routine varies by creature.

Skills : 15 initial, +10 level, +12 (charisma only) aging.  All physical skills vary with form.
 Athletics: +22 [G (2 from 1st Level)]
 Awareness: +28 [S (3 from 1st level)]
 Bluff: +32 [S (4 from aging)]
 Diplomacy: +32 [S (4 from aging)]
 Handle Animal: +32 [S (3 from 1st Level)]
 Intimidate: +32 [S (4 from aging)]
 Search: +28 [S (2 from 1st level, 2 from leveling)]
 Spellcraft: +22 [G (2 from 1st Level)]
 Stealth: +27 [S (4 from leveling)]
 Supernatural Lore: +28 [S (4 from leveling)]
 Wilderness Lore: +28 [S (3 from 1st level)]

Feats:
Alertness (1st)
Endurance (Human Bonus 1st)
Multiattack (3th)
Improved Multiattack (6th)
Track (Human Bonus 8th)
Flyby Attack (9th)
Serpent's Fangs (12th)
Swift Wild Shape (15th)
Rapidstrike (Human Bonus 16th)
Improved Maneuverability(18th)

Languages: Common, Celestial, Infernal, Druid.

Equipment:
 Girdle of Physical Perfection, +6 to all physical stats, +5 natural armor (194,000, includes surcharge for stacking items)
 Armbands of Mighty Fists +5 (120,000)
 Thorn Circlet of the Omnipresent Mind (Belt of Battle with +6 to all mental stats added) (150,000, includes surcharge for stacking items)
 Scintillating Collar (12,000, toggleable on and off at will 'Scintillating Scales')
 +5 Wild Heavy Wooden Shield (64,152)
 +5 Wild Darkwood Chain Shirt (64,500)
 Anklets of Speed (12,000)
 Ring of Spell Turning (98,280)
 Ioun Stone: Lavender and Green Ellipsoid (40,000)

Money: 5,068gp

Spells/Day: 5/5/3/2

Spells Prepared: Pass Without Trace x2, Jump x2, Obscuring Mist.  Lesser Restoration x3.  Neutralize Poison, Remove Disease.

General list of preferred forms: Roc, Legendary Bear, 12-headed Hydra, Siege Crab, Ssvaklor, Topiary Guardian, Mountain Troll, various dragons (Force, Fang, Battle, Pyroclastic, Rust, Styx, Tarterian), Magma Drake, Hill Landwyrm, Arcane Ooze, Living Spell (various), Zeugalak.

Sources: SRD (Legendary Bear, Force Dragon, Hydra, Roc).  MM3 (Siege Crab, Ssvaklor, Topiary Guardian, Mountain Troll, Arcane Ooze, Living Spell).  Draconomicon (All other dragons, Magma Drake, Hill Landwyrm).  Lords of Madness (Zeugalak).
[/sblock]


----------



## Douane (Nov 29, 2007)

Eidalac said:
			
		

> Since the level bonus comes from class levels, he wouldn't get the points from 18 & 20, hence the 21 I'm getting.
> 
> HOWEVER,
> 
> Counting the HD as class levels would be a valid reading as well, and if you all think that is easier to work with, I'm fine doing it that way.



Ah, okay, clearly my mistake. (I was obviously confused by "just treat yourself as a 20th level fighter".)




> "Half-Dragon (Red) Scout 8/Fighter 4/Tempest 5"
> 
> Sounds neat-o.




Thanks, Half-Dragon is probably a sub-optimal choice, but I have a soft spot for them.


----------



## Nac Mac Feegle (Nov 29, 2007)

Half-dragons are awesome, there's no arguing with that.  They do look a little anemic when they're forced to stand comparison to the half-outside types, unfortunately.


----------



## Douane (Nov 29, 2007)

The Human 4th level ability "Jack of all Trades" doesn't seem to have much use anymore due to the new skill system. Will it be replaced by anything?


----------



## OnlytheStrong (Nov 29, 2007)

I'm considering taking the Leadership feat due to the little background story written earlier. I was curious as to if there was any issue with that feat? And lastly, is it even possible for an ogre to have a mount? lol I've got alot of interesting ideas on what to do with the feat selection. I am sorta out of ideas on what to take, with 3 slots still open. I did open up the PHB II and look through it. The following is the "newly" modified list:
[sblock]
Weapon Focus
Greater Weapon Focus
Weapon Specialization
Greater Weapon Specialization
Weapon Mastery (all of those are TBD)
Defensive Sweep
Power Critical
Improved Bull Rush
Shock Trooper
Improved Sunder
Brutal Throw
Power Throw
**may have mounted skillsx3
Leadership[/sblock]


----------



## Shayuri (Nov 29, 2007)

Nac, a warning re: Wild armor and shields.

When shifted, they only give the armor bonus and enhancement bonus. The special features you're loading up, by RAW, do not work when shifted.

GM house rules may apply. Check your local listings. Wild armor house rules void where prohibited by state or federal law. Batteries not included. May cause dizziness, shortness of breath, and prophetic episodes. Do not taunt happy fun wild armor.


----------



## OnlytheStrong (Nov 29, 2007)

Open to ideas about how to spend the rest of my money lol I'd like the rest of my armor to more or less match my Fiendhelm. Any tips on how to make it that way?

[sblock=Equipment]

Full Plate of Heavy Fortitude +5 ------103,300gp-----100lbs
Flaming Unholy Greatsword +5--------128,350gp-----16lbs
Shocking Burst Heavy Flail +5--------98,330gp-------20lbs
Belt of Giants Strength +6 -----------36,000gp-------1lbs
Amulet of Natural Armor +5-----------50,000gp-------0lbs
Ring of Protection +5-----------------50,000gp-------0lbs
Greater Boots of the Mountain King----21,500gp------1lbs
Greater Cloak of the Salamander------36,000gp-------0lbs
Fiendhelm---------------------------10,000gp-------2lbs
Instant Fortress---------------------55,000gp-------??
Scabbard of Keen Edge---------------16,000gp-------1lb
Decanter of Endless Water------------9,000gp-------2lbs
Ring of Freedom of Movement---------40,000gp-------0lbs
Belt Pouch-------------------------------2gp---------1lb
Cure Serious Wounds Potions (20)------15,000gp------1lb

Total Gold Remaining: 242,350

[/sblock]

The instant fortress will give us a place to stay where we can actually sleep. It appears to be impossible to enter. I am more than happy to buy things for the group as a whole, if nothing else can be thought of to purchase for myself. I even considered buying the Onyx Dog to help track if we need to.


----------



## farmboymdp (Nov 29, 2007)

Is it too late to get in on this game? This is unlike any D&D game I've played before!


----------



## Apocalypse_Child (Nov 29, 2007)

So, I'm hoping this thread is still recruiting. Because it's totally up my alley and I think I might just cry if it isn't. 
If you ARE recruiting, I would like to make a wizard. I don't believe you have one, from what I saw. I'm not entirely certain what books are and are not allowed. If you are still recruiting, and need a wizard, I will stat the character and post it for approval. For now I will just write up a basic description of him and his history.

Mordred D'Loessian
Race: Human
Alignment: Lawful Evil
Height: 5'9"
Weight: 145
Age: TBA

Appearance: Mordred wears clothing that belies his outlook. Despite wearing fine things, he tends to blend into the crowd--and he likes it that way. Few people would assume him to be a wizard, with his trendy clothing and shortly cropped black hair. Most would see him more as a bard, or perhaps a minor noble, from his way of looking down his nose at people he just meets.

Personality: Mordred is an elitist. People he finds competent win his respect, grudgingly. People who tend to fail at what they do earn his scorn. Mordred is fiercely loyal to his friends and steamrollers over things that he sees as being in the way. There are very few people, even friends, that he sees as equal to himself, but he will defend those people with his life, unless they're in trouble for doing something exceedingly stupid. He admires competence in all it's forms, but naturally respects spellcasters more than nonspellcasters. 
He despises diplomacy unless he has to use it to get what he wants. He's used to getting his way, but when he doesn't, he isn't set back; he merely finds another way (usually more subtle) to obtain it. 

History: the D'Loessian family is a group of fairly rich traders who have been in the business for six generations. Mordred was born into relative comfort; though as he grew up, he came to despise it. He saw his family as living off the fat of what previous generations accomplished, and during his teen years, he fell out with his family, which gave him enough money to go to Spellweaver College, one of the smaller mage schools, and sent him on his way. There, he quickly garnered a reputation for delving into the Black Arts. Unlike many wizards, he despised Evocation and stopped studying it early on in his career. His approach to magic was more subtle, less focused on raw destruction and more on manipulation of the properties inherent in life itself. He studied many ways to make others around him stronger, since, he believed, in a team, a spell that helped someone else become more effective both enhanced his reputation and was more useful, since those he helped had intelligence and could be directed, unlike a single-effect spell. He garnered a reputation in spellweaver, attaining the rank of Maester relatively early in his career. He believes in being prepared for any situation.



Possibly you have more questions for me, and I'm more than willing to answer them if you are; drop me a pm. Thanks


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## ethandrew (Nov 29, 2007)

AC: Is there a particular specialty you are leaning toward?

I had proposed a wizard earlier, but upon your submission and our lack of divinity, I might go the route of Wizard/Cleric/Mystic Theurge.

What pantheon are we using for this setting?


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Nov 29, 2007)

OnlytheStrong said:
			
		

> Open to ideas about how to spend the rest of my money lol I'd like the rest of my armor to more or less match my Fiendhelm. Any tips on how to make it that way?
> 
> The instant fortress will give us a place to stay where we can actually sleep. It appears to be impossible to enter. I am more than happy to buy things for the group as a whole, if nothing else can be thought of to purchase for myself. I even considered buying the Onyx Dog to help track if we need to.




I've got around a +28 to track, so I think we're good there.  As for suggestions, +6 con never hurt anyone except other people.


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## OnlytheStrong (Nov 29, 2007)

Droggoth

Ogre
Fighter 16


```
Height: 9'8''
Weight: 520lbs
Hair:  Black
Eyes: Grey
Alignment: LE

Str: 36  +13 mod (16 + 4 level adj + 10 racial + 6 belt of giants strength)
Dex: 10  +0 mod (12 - 2 racial)
Con: 20  +5 mod (16 + 4 racial)
Int:  6    -2 mod (10 - 4 racial)
Wis: 12   +1 mod
Cha: 6    -2 mod  (10 - 4 racial)

AC: 38  (10 + 13 armor + 5 deflection (ring) + 5 amulet of natural armor + 5 racial)

VP: 4d8 + 16d10 + con modx16
WP: 20

Speed: 30ft   (40ft base - 10 armor)

Saving Throws:
   Fortitude:    19     (10 + 4 racial + 5 con mod)
   Reflex:         8    (5 + 1 racial + 0 dex mod + 2 lightning reflexes)
   Will:            9   (5 + 1 racial + 1 wis + 2 iron will)

Attacking:
   Base Attack Bonus: -1 due to size (already taken off my BAB)
   +15/+13/+8/+3     +3 racial

   Unholy Flaming Greatsword +5   to hit: +40/+35/+30/+24
      dmg: 4d6+19       Crit: 19-20x2 (+4 to confirm)
             +2d6 vs. good           

   Shocking Burst Heavy Flail +5    to hit: +39/+31/+26/+21
      dmg: 2d8+13 + 1d6         Crit: 19-20x2  +1d10 on crit

   Frost Shortspear of Distance +5   to hit: +39/+31/+26/+21 
      dmg: 1d8+13 +1d6         Crit: x2   Range: 40ft

   Grapple:  +31  (18 base + 13 strength)


Skills: (excludes Untrained)
   Athletics (S)  uses str
   Awareness (S)   uses wis
   Common Knowledge (A)  uses int
   Intimidate (S)   uses cha
   Language (P)   uses int
   Sense Motive (A)    uses wis
   Warcraft (S)   uses int
   Weaponcraft (S)   uses int

Feats: (9 fighter bonus + 2 racial + 6 level)
   Weapon Focus (greatsword) 
   Greater Weapon Focus (greatsword)
   Weapon Specialization (greatsword)
   Greater Weapon Specialization (greatsword)
   Weapon Mastery (slashing) ~~ +2 to attack and dmg rolls [PHB II pg 81]
   Defensive Sweep ~~  allows for AoO if defender has not moved [PHB II pg 76]
   Power Critical ~~ +4 bonus to confirm critical (greatsword)  [C.W. pg 103]
   Improved Bull Rush
   Improved Sunder
   Shock Trooper ~~directed bull rush, domino rush, heedless charge [C.W. pg 112]
   Brutal Throw ~~adds str mod instead of dex mod to thrown weapons [C.A. pg 106]
   Power Throw ~~power attack for thrown weapons   [C.A. pg 111]
   Cleave
   Great Cleave
   Leadership
   Iron Will
   Lightning Reflexes


Racial Abilities:
   Power Attack
   Smash 
   Darkvision 120ft
```

[sblock=Equipment (costs and weights)]

Full Plate of Heavy Fortitude +5 -------------103,300gp-------100lbs
Restful Crystal ---------------------------------500gp----------0lbs
Flaming Unholy Greatsword +5---------------128,350gp--------16lbs
Shocking Burst Heavy Flail +5-----------------98,330gp--------20lbs
Frost Shortspear of Distance +5--------------98,304gp---------6lbs
Belt of Giants Strength +6--------------------36,000gp---------1lbs
Amulet of Natural Armor +5-------------------50,000gp---------0lbs
Ring of Protection +5-------------------------50,000gp---------0lbs
Greater Cloak of the Salamander--------------36,000gp---------1lbs
Greater Boots of the Mountain King-----------21,500gp----------1lbs
Fiendhelm-----------------------------------10,000gp----------2lbs
Instant Fortress-----------------------------55,000gp-----------0lbs
Scabbard of Keen Edges---------------------16,000gp-----------1lb
Decanter of Endless Water--------------------9,000gp-----------2lbs
Ring of Freedom of Movement----------------40,000gp-----------0lbs
Cure Serious Wounds Potions (20)------------15,000gp-----------1lb
Belt Pouch---------------------------------------2gp------------1lb
Efficent Quiver--------------------------------1,800gp-----------2lbs
Greater Horn of Blasting----------------------70,000gp----------1lb
Tan Bag of Tricks----------------------------6,3000gp-----------0lbs

Gold Remaining: 65,946   
Total Weight Carried: 155lbs

[/sblock]


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## ethandrew (Nov 29, 2007)

I _think_ you might've spent too much on equipment. We were only starting from anywhere between 190.000 - 200.000, unless I missed something and we now have a lot more starting gold. Yum!


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## Shayuri (Nov 29, 2007)

That's experience points.

Standard wealth (which is what's on his list) for level 20 is 760,000 if I'm not mistaken.


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## ethandrew (Nov 29, 2007)

Goodness you're right. I'm all over the board here. What would I do without you Shay


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Nov 29, 2007)

Shayuri said:
			
		

> That's experience points.
> 
> Standard wealth (which is what's on his list) for level 20 is 760,000 if I'm not mistaken.




And it's a good thing too, how else would I afford my +6 to all stats?


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## Evilhalfling (Nov 29, 2007)

Im thinking about a Cleric/devil worshiper PrC
are BoVd and Fiendish codex useable?  I don't know which PrC, looking for something that fits the concept, and can cast 8th lvl spells if possible, but dont have my books.

The Lurking Fear, Doom of Sark, Iudd's Dread (Sarker)  – 
Concept.
Sarker (as he now calls himself) was always the power behind the throne, the corrupter.  He has led his the Sark-Arundin Empire (his world's largest empire) into chaos and depravity, rejoicing the despoiling of the sacred.  Now that he has won, he looks for new challenges, unsatisfied with the small successor states, and barbarian hordes that now control the land of his birth.  Insperations are Saulron (from similarion) or Saurman/Wormtounge (or Cheney) his goal is chaos and destruction, but his means is an ordered system.  

In full disclosure - I am uncertain if I can play for the whole game, so if there is someone else who wants to take a divine role, a little overlap would not hurt.


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Nov 29, 2007)

Shifted my equipment around and swapped a feat out (realized I couldn’t take improved rapidstrike at 18th because I don’t get BAB +15 until level 20).  Here’s a sample alternate form stat block (for what will be my most common ‘pure combat’ form) to give you a better idea of the combat stats of this beast, and I’ll get some expanded background and personality up soon.

[sblock=Primary Combat Form]
Wyrmling Force Dragon

Abilities when Shifted:
Str: 41 [31 base, +4 Warshaper, +6 Item]
Dex: 16 [10 base, +6 Item]
Con: 31 [21 base, +4 Warshaper, +6 Item]
Int: 20
Wis: 20
Cha: 28

Hit Dice: 20d8 + 200
VP: 293
WP: 62 (modified for Huge size)
AC: 51 (+9 Armor, +7 Shield, +3 Dex, +24 Deflection from NA, -2 Size), Touch 35, FF 48.
Init: +3 (+3 Dex)
Speed: 60ft (fly 250 ft, average maneuverability) 
Space/Reach: 15ft/15ft (20ft with Bite)

Saves:
 Fortitude +25 [+15 base, +10 Con] 
 Reflex +11 [+8 base, +3 Dex]

BAB/Grapple: +15/+38
 Melee Attack: Bite +33 [4d6+20, x2]
 Melee Full Attack: Bite +33 [4d6+20, x2, Poison (if using feat)], 2 Claws +33/+33/+28 [2d6+12, x2], 2 Wings +33/+33 [2d6+12, x2], Tail Slap +33 [2d8+27, x2]
 Poison:  Fort save DC 30, 1d6 Con/1d6 Con (via Serpent's Venom).

Extra abilities: Frightful Presence (DC 29), DR 10/Magic, SR 24, Immune to Force.  Overland flight speed 40 mph normal (80 mph hustling).
[/sblock]


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## Douane (Nov 29, 2007)

Hey, *Nac Mac Feegle*, could you help me a bit out?

I've zero experience desgining magic equipment (our 18th level RL game sports +2 swords at best) and thus I wanted to "borrow" your collar idea but somehow I'm getting a different price.


50,000 Amulet of NA +5
36,000 STR +6 + 50% Stacking + 50% not matching body slot affinity = 81,000
36,000 DEX +6 + 50% Stacking + 50% not matching body slot affinity = 81,000
36,000 CON +6 + 50% Stacking = 54,000

total: 266,000 GP   


What am I doing wrong?


Thanks!


----------



## Eidalac (Nov 29, 2007)

> The Human 4th level ability "Jack of all Trades" doesn't seem to have much use anymore due to the new skill system. Will it be replaced by anything?




Yeah... I'm not sure what I'll put in ATM though.



> I'm considering taking the Leadership feat due to the little background story written earlier. I was curious as to if there was any issue with that feat?




None as of such.  However, it'd be your responsibility to run the cohort/followers, in general.  I'll have enough to deal with without having to juggle umpteen mini-PCs.



> And lastly, is it even possible for an ogre to have a mount?




Of course.  Would have to be a Huge creature, but that's all.  'Course, finding a good Huge mount may be an issue in and of itself.



> When shifted, they only give the armor bonus and enhancement bonus. The special features you're loading up, by RAW, do not work when shifted.




CADV, IIRC, has a 'Beastskin' feature.  It's a +2 bonus that just resizes armor to fit - however it requires you to spend an extra Wildshape use to activate.

farmboymdp & Apocalypse_Child

You guys would be numbers 6 & 7, and I'd be willing ot take a max of 8 to start with.  I only like to run with 4-6, but I always assume 2 or so will drop out.

So, yeah, we are still open.



> What pantheon are we using for this setting?




Any and all.



> are BoVd and Fiendish codex useable?




BoVD I have, but not Fiendish Codex.

BoVD stuff I'll have to consider on a case-by-case basis.  I like it and all, but some of it is outright broken.

Concept looks very interesting.


So, ATM, the concepts all look good, and we have a total of 8 interested parties.


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Nov 30, 2007)

Oh that's simple, you're just not forgetting completely about the 'wrong slot' cost increase, it's way easier if you do that.

In other words, *Doh*, time to go back and do a lot more tweaking.  And I'm using the Wild feature rather than the Beastskin mostly for style (I checked it in MIC).  Since Lilith just doesn't spend any time in her 'natural' form any more, Wild means that she doesn't appear to be wearing armor/carrying a shield, but she still gets +16 AC from them 

EDIT: Alright, I swapped my belt and throat slots (since Belt covers 'Physical Improvement' it nicely works for having all the physical stats in it), so that should fix everything with a minimum of fuss.


----------



## ethandrew (Nov 30, 2007)

I am thinking of running a Mystic Theurge and Ur-Priest build, probably a LA 1 or 0 race, tiefling or something similar. I'm wanting something with good arcane and divine energies.


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## Douane (Nov 30, 2007)

Oh, er, sorry!!!   

I thought I was just missing some sort of "rebate" for building a compound item (and therefore putting all of one's eggs in to one basket).


----------



## Nac Mac Feegle (Nov 30, 2007)

It's all good, a little judicious shuffling means I can get it without a price increase, it just took a little bit of thought.  Thanks for the catch .


----------



## Eidalac (Nov 30, 2007)

Wrong Slot cost?  Sheesh.

I'm used to just doubling the cost of extra effects.  It works out the same price, most of the time.  I just don't like the idea of magic being 'harder' to work on specific body parts.


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## Douane (Nov 30, 2007)

Quick question: I have to pay the full ECL +3 for half-dragon, right? 

Reason I'm asking is that compared with the ECL-less Ogre who gets at least 4 giant levels for make up for the lost four levels the Half-Dragon and his three lost levels become somewhat discouraging.


----------



## Nac Mac Feegle (Nov 30, 2007)

Well, I do agree that Eyeglasses of Giant Strength are silly .

By the way, I thought I'd check: do you have all the form sources that I listed beyond the SRD (MM3, Draconomicon, Lords of Madness)?


----------



## Douane (Nov 30, 2007)

Nac Mac Feegle said:
			
		

> Well, I do agree that Eyeglasses of Giant Strength are silly .




You object to my "Monocle of Might" ? I am afraid, good sir, I am going to have to ask you to throw down.


----------



## Nac Mac Feegle (Nov 30, 2007)

Douane said:
			
		

> You object to my "Monocle of Might" ? I am afraid, good sir, I am going to have to ask you to throw down.




Well that's a whole 'nother issue.  Everyone knows monocles are for Str and Con, it's why the British love them so much.


----------



## ethandrew (Nov 30, 2007)

There's an item called the "Belt of Magnificence". From the Miniature's Handbook. It's 200.000 gold for a belt that grants a +6 enhancement bonus to all ability scores.


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## Douane (Nov 30, 2007)

Nac Mac Feegle said:
			
		

> Well that's a whole 'nother issue.  Everyone knows monocles are for Str and Con, it's why the British love them so much.




Not only the British, I still have my great-grandfather's monocle and wear it occasionally to freak people out.


----------



## Nac Mac Feegle (Nov 30, 2007)

Douane said:
			
		

> Not only the British, I still have my great-grandfather's monocle and wear it occasionally to freak people out.




Maybe your grandfather was secretly British?  Also, not to get off topic but I'm getting actually pretty excited for this game.  There's something about epic shapeshifters that's just so much fun to play in my opinion.


----------



## Avalon® (Nov 30, 2007)

Eidalac, are you still accepting? I've got several concepts in mind but I need to know what your list of books are first before putting any concept forward.


----------



## Douane (Nov 30, 2007)

Nac Mac Feegle said:
			
		

> Maybe your grandfather was secretly British?



No, not really. Swedish perhaps, British not at all. (It's been over 400 years since part of our family came from there.)




> Also, not to get off topic but I'm getting actually pretty excited for this game.  There's something about epic shapeshifters that's just so much fun to play in my opinion.



After reading over the PrCs: You'd better have some good explanations ready why you keep the rest of us around.


----------



## Nac Mac Feegle (Nov 30, 2007)

Simple, I can't cast Plane Shift.  Yet.  Just watch yourself if I ever grab an Amulet of the Planes.


----------



## Eidalac (Nov 30, 2007)

> Quick question: I have to pay the full ECL +3 for half-dragon, right?




Nope.  LA will be dealt with via racial bonuses; ie, you'll get less than a LA 0 race.

The Ogre got 3 features, but no the ability bonuses of the standard races - not that he needs any more ability scores.  I'll do something similar with the half-dragon.

Which reminds me - what's the other half?




> do you have all the form sources that I listed beyond the SRD (MM3, Draconomicon, Lords of Madness)?




Yup.  Only ever skimmed over LoM, but I do have it.


Avalon:
Hrm.

You'd be #9 out of 8.

Meaning, you are free to build a character, but someone is going to get left out in the end.

So, if I do have to pick, I'll be looking at concept first, execution (hahaha) second and order of application 3rd.

As for books...

I have... alot.  As in, like, 75% of everything WoTC put out since 3.0 that wasn't setting specific, plus a fistfull of Ebberon and FR stuff as well.




> After reading over the PrCs: You'd better have some good explanations ready why you keep the rest of us around.




That'll be taken care of IG via your patron.


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## Eidalac (Nov 30, 2007)

Ok, I've got a Rogues Gallery thread up here:
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?p=3912853

Please post your stats/concepts there for easy of review, and proper use of sblocks will be nice as well.


----------



## Douane (Nov 30, 2007)

Eidalac said:
			
		

> Nope.  LA will be dealt with via racial bonuses; ie, you'll get less than a LA 0 race.
> 
> The Ogre got 3 features, but no the ability bonuses of the standard races - not that he needs any more ability scores.  I'll do something similar with the half-dragon.
> 
> Which reminds me - what's the other half?




Doh. I really need a forehead-slapping smiley.

Ogre?  

No, it's Human, proving once again that they'll mate with nearly everything.


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## OnlytheStrong (Nov 30, 2007)

I decided I want him to have a mount lol. Would it be easier to just buy one of the wonderous figurines (the elephant one) or is there some kind of actually fitting mount that would be easy enough to explain. Eidalac, just let me know what you will allow or prefer and I will do it. Heck, if you tell me how much to pay I'll let you choose it for me lol.


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Nov 30, 2007)

Unless you're planning to give negative benefits to the half-dragon, I honestly can't see how 2 feats and 2 ability boosts are worth the same as a breath weapon DC 20+Con modifier, +4 natural armor, claws, bite, an energy immunity and a total of +14 to various stats.


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## Eidalac (Nov 30, 2007)

The stats and energy immunity are the only things that concern me.

My thoughts:


No level based racial abilities (ie, it has all the abilities in the template already)
Turn the Energy Immunity into Energy Resistance (= 1/2 HD, ie 10)
+2 to one mental stat.
+5 to spread on physical stats.


Looking over this, I've been pondering if I shouldn't bump the racial stat boosts back to +2.


----------



## Shayuri (Nov 30, 2007)

For review prior to posting in RG.

Note that some elements of this are still WIP. In particular I think I have the skills wrong still.

I'm still open on Eclectic Learning...which spells to pick. Here's some I'm considering:

Greater Teleport
Greater Prying Eyes
Spell Turning
Adamantine Wings

See Invisible
Arcane Turmoil
Glitterdust

Any suggestions will be entertained... I'm most concerned with the 3rd level spell (remember nonevocation are +1 level) and the 8th level spell.

i'm also open to alternative feat loads, within some reason.

Suggestions on money spending also accepted.

[sblock=The Omega]Name: Omega
Gender: N/A 
Race: Warforged
Class Warmage 20
Exp: 190k+
Alignment: Lawful Evil

Str 8 –- (0 pts) 
Dex 14 –- (6 pts)
Con 18 -- (6 pts) +4 racial
Int 14 -- (6 pts)
Wis 10 -- (4 pts) -2 racial
Cha 30 -- (10 pts) -2 racial + 5 levelup + 5 inherent + 6 enhancement

Hit Points 20d6+80
AC 37 (10 + 2 dex + 9 armor + 6 shield + 5 deflection +5 natural) Touch 27, Flat 35
Init +2
BAB +10, Grap +9
Speed 20 (base 20, load 0/0, heavy armor)
Fort +15, Ref +13, Will +17

Speaks Common, Draconic, ?

Skills 92
+26 Concentration [23 ranks + 3 Con]
+7 Engineering [5 ranks + 2 Int]
+26 Intimidate [23 ranks + 3 Cha]
+11 Supernatural Lore [9 ranks + 2 Int]
+25 Knowledge: History [23 ranks + 2 Int]
+11 Spellcraft [9 ranks + 2 Int]

Feats
1 Adamantine Body (AC +4 DR 6)
3 Eschew materials
6 Spell Focus: Evocation
9 Battle Caster (Heavy)
12 Improved Fortification (Immune to crits)
15 Heighten Spell
18 Empower Spell

Racename Traits
Construct type, living subtype
immune to poison, disease, nausea, fatigue, exhaustion, effects that cause the sickened condition, and 

energy drain. 
Cannot heal damage naturally. 
Healing spells/abilities only heal half damage. 
Stasis at 0 through -10 HP. 
Does not eat, sleep, or breathe. 
Composite plating: +2 armor bonus, as light armor. 
Light Fortification, 25% chance to avoid critical hits/sneak attacks. 
Natural weapon, one slam attack for 1d4+Str.
Racial Abilities
• 4th level ability: Improved Damage Reduction, an experience warforged has learned to use it's metal 

plating to absorb blows, and instinctively shifts his body to do so.
• 8th level ability: Enhanced Fortification, more time in the world has taught the warforged the places 

it does not want to get struck. With a few minor modifications to it's body, along with an improved 

sense of awareness, the warforged now has a 50% chance to negate a critical hit or precision based 

damage.
• 12th level ability: +1 bonus to Constitution or Strength
• 16th level ability: Fluidity, by now the warforged has learned to move in a more fluid and natural 

way, compensating from imperfections in it's base design. A warforged with either the Adamantine Body 

or Mithral Body feat has it's armor check penalty reduced by 1 and it's max dexterity bonus increased 

by 1.
A warforged without these feats has it's base land speed increased by 10 feet.
In either case, the warforged's arcane spell failure chance is reduced by 5%.
• 20th level ability: +1 bonus to Constitution or Strength


Classname Abilities
Basic Weapons plus Crossbows
Armored Mage (Medium) - Can wear Medium armor and shields and ignore Arcane Fail Chance.
Warmage Edge (+2) - Add 2 to the final damage of all spells that cause hit point damage.
Advanced Learning (3rd) - 
Eclectic Learning (6th) - 
Eclectic Learning (11th) - Repair Critical Damage (+4d8+20 dmg to constructs)
Eclectic Learning (16th) - 
Sudden Empower
Sudden Enlarge
Sudden Widen
Sudden Maximize

Spellcasting (warmage CL 20, DC 20+lvl, evoc 21+lvl)
0th- Acid Splash, Disrupt Undead, Ray of Frost, Light
1st- Accuracy, Burning Hands, Chill Touch, Fist of Stone, Hail of Stone, Magic Missile, Floating Disc, Lesser Orb of Acid, Lesser Orb of Electricity, Lesser Orb of Fire, Lesser Orb of Cold, Lesser Orb of Sound, Shocking Grasp, True Strike
2nd- Blades of Fire, Continual Flame, Fire Trap, Fireburst, Flaming Sphere, Ice Knife, Acid Arrow, Pyrotechnics, Scorching Ray, Shatter, Whirling Blade
3rd- Fire Shield, Fireball, Flame Arrow, Gust of Wind, Ice Storm, Lightning Bolt, Poison, Ring of 
Blades, Sleet Storm, Stinking Cloud
4th- Blast of Flame, Contagion, Black Tentacles, Orb of Acid, Orb of Cold, Orb of Electricity, Orb of Fire, Orb of Force, Orb of Sound, Phantasmal Killer, Shout, Wall of Fire
5th- Arc of Lightning, Cloudkill, Cone of Cold, Mass Fire Shield, Greater Fireburst, Flamestrike, 
Prismatic Ray
6th- Acid Fog, Blade Barrier, Chain Lightning, Circle of Death, Disintegrate, Fire Seeds, Freezing Sphere, Tenser's Transformation
7th- Delayed Fireball, Earthquake, Finger of Death, Firestorm, Mord Sword, Prismatic Spray, Sunbeam, Wave of Exhaustion
8th- Horrid Wilting, Incendiary Cloud, Polar Ray, Prismatic Wall, Scintillating Pattern, Greater Shout, Sunburst
9th- Elemental Swarm, Implosion, Meteor Swarm, Prismatic Sphere, Wail of the Banshee, Weird

Equipment 38,500

Armor
Black Iron Skin, +9 AC, DR 6/-, ACP: -4, Max Dex: +2, 311k
- +5 Death Ward Adamantine Chassis of Ghost Ward, 49k
- Greater Energy Resistance (Cold, Fire), 132k
- Improved Energy Resistance (Acid, Electricity, Sonic), 126k
- Landing, 4k

Repulsor Plate, +6 AC, ACP 0, 64k
- +5 Arrow Deflecting Ghost Ward Mithril Buckler

Weapons


Gear
Ring of Protection +5, 50,000
Ring of Free Action, 40,000
Amulet of Natural Armor +5, 50,000
Vest of Resistance +5, 25,000
Cloak of Charisma +6, 36k
Belt of the Wide Earth, 8k

Tome of Cha +5, 137,500

Background


Personality



Appearance 

[/sblock]


----------



## Avalon® (Nov 30, 2007)

Eidalac, would you allow this base class? Bloodseeker


----------



## Douane (Nov 30, 2007)

Eidalac said:
			
		

> Nope.  LA will be dealt with via racial bonuses; ie, you'll get less than a LA 0 race.
> 
> The Ogre got 3 features, but no the ability bonuses of the standard races - not that he needs any more ability scores.  I'll do something similar with the half-dragon.



Just to make sure I got things right: An Ogre "pays" effectively two +1 boosts to get rid of a ECL +2, correct?


----------



## Douane (Nov 30, 2007)

Avalon® said:
			
		

> Eidalac, would you allow this base class? Bloodseeker




Avalon,

the link doesn't seem to work for me.


----------



## OnlytheStrong (Nov 30, 2007)

Same as above lol.


----------



## Nac Mac Feegle (Nov 30, 2007)

With a bit of rooting around, I have determined that (I think) he is referring to http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=930300


----------



## Avalon® (Nov 30, 2007)

edited the link. Please view it if you want.


----------



## Eidalac (Nov 30, 2007)

Hows 20k sound for this beast?

[sblock="Gathra"]Gathra  CR 12
LE Huge Magical Beast (Extraplanar)
Init -2; Senses Darkvision 60', low-light vision; Listen +9, Spot +9

AC 20, Touch 6, flat 20
hp 166 (12 hd), wp 60; DR 3/-, 10/magic
fort +18, Ref +5, Will +7

Spd 40'
Melee Gore +18 (1d10+12) and 2 Hooves +13 (1d6+6)
Trample 2d6+12 (AoO at -4 or Reflex DC 22 for half)
Space 15' (long); Reach 5'
BaB +12; Grp +24
Atk Options trample, bellow

S 35 D 7 C 30 I 4 W 17 C 16
Feats Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack, Awesome Blow
Skills  Hide -5, Surival +9

Bellow (Sp)  3/day, fear, 30' radius, Will DC 18


Gathras are powerful and dangerous animals that wander the scorched plaines of Avernus.  While they may look like herd animals, gathras are actually predators that hunt down and devour any animal unlucky enough to be caught in the open.

A gathra looks like a horrid blend of board and bull.  It is heavily muscled, with stubby legs that can propel it at great speed.  Two enormous tusks jut from it's fang-filled mouth, and it constantly drools as foul-smelling spittle.  The eyes of a gathra glow with a dim, red light that becomes brighter when the beast is angered.

Demons and other evil creatures round up gathras to use them as mounts.  The beasts are stubborn and unprdictable creatures that require constant discipline and domination to be kept in line.[/sblock]


Omega looks ok on a glance (I won't have time to do a proper review of these guys for a few days).

_Just to make sure I got things right: An Ogre "pays" effectively two +1 boosts to get rid of a ECL +2, correct?_

Yes.

However, I'm thinking of making the +1 racial bonuses back to +2, since the net gain on the Ogre is still higher than the 2 point loss.


Avalon:
Bad link. 
I'll have to look it over tomorrow.


----------



## OnlytheStrong (Nov 30, 2007)

Sounds awesome! I will attach that to my character sheet. I'm assuming that his saddle will cost like x3 as much as normal, which is fine. As for the adjustments on my ogre, just let me know what I need to change. I'm not about to argue lol (tends to hurt getting into a game).


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## farmboymdp (Nov 30, 2007)

SCRAPPED!


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## Douane (Nov 30, 2007)

Eidalac said:
			
		

> _Just to make sure I got things right: An Ogre "pays" effectively two +1 boosts to get rid of a ECL +2, correct?_
> 
> Yes.
> 
> However, I'm thinking of making the +1 racial bonuses back to +2, since the net gain on the Ogre is still higher than the 2 point loss.




Well, it's easy then: I'll drop the two attribute boni and take Half-Dragon at ECL +1 then.  (Probably not what you had in mind.  )


----------



## Shayuri (Nov 30, 2007)

Farmboy...a few possible problems leap out at me.

One - You have a whole mess of base classes, and hence would be saddled with a pretty big exp penalty.

Two - You have 20 class levels, and are therefore above ECL 20 when you factor in the Thri Kreen ECL and racial hit dice.

Three - Your item pricing is off...most noteably on your Mind Blank thingy. An item of Mind Blank (and since it lasts a day per casting, the 1/day thing doesn't really reduce it's cost ) costs 120,000gp according to DMG2 and SRD. You also neglected to include the body slot surcharge on the 'bracers of mighty fists' and 'neckerchief of disguise.' 

Four - Using an animated shield will still bonk out your Swordsage Wis bonus to armor. From the SRD: Animated: Upon command, an animated shield floats within 2 feet of the wielder, protecting her as if she were using it herself but freeing up both her hands. Only one shield can protect a character at a time. *A character with an animated shield still takes any penalties associated with shield use, such as armor check penalty, arcane spell failure chance, and nonproficiency.* (boldface added for emphasis)

Five - The Max Dex of padded armor is +8. So if you wear it, you can't get your full Dex bonus to AC.


----------



## Nac Mac Feegle (Nov 30, 2007)

As for your attack routine: you never get iterative attacks with natural weapons unless you have the rapidstrike (and improved rapidstrike for more than one attack) feat.

If you check the XPH Thri-Kreen explanation they lay it out pretty nicely.  Basically, you get whatever full attack routing you would get with weapons, and then one extra natural attack (claw or bite) at -5 (-2 in your case since you have multiattack).  If you attack without weapons, you get one attack with each natural weapon, all past the first taking a -2 penalty.

Also, I believe Eidelac said that BVoD stuff (Soul Eater) would be on an approval basis.


----------



## ethandrew (Nov 30, 2007)

Okay, so I am leaning toward a Tiefling Swashbuckler 1 | Wizard 4 | Ur-Priest 2 | Mystic Theurge 10 and two other levels of unknown. Equipment will be pretty straight forward, Vest of the Archmagi (MIC), Belt of Magnificence (MH), two +5 Tomes.


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Nov 30, 2007)

Interesting .  I helped put together an Ur-Priest mystic theurge build a while back involving monk and sorcerer instead of Swashbuckler and Wizard.


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## Apocalypse_Child (Nov 30, 2007)

Ethandrew, I was planning on going generalist. If Incantatrix is allowed in the game, then I will have to give up a school anyway, and three (or at the least two if i went diviner as well) prohibited schools are icky to me   . If you do want to go straight wizard, I could try making something else, I hadn't seen your post when I posted, sorry  

Essentially I was hoping to buff the crap out of our fighters and occasionally break out some serious necromantic smackdown, but if you're going MT you'll probably  have the buffing covered better than I would, so I'll probably put more utility spells in my repetoire.


Sidenote: Is Incantatrix allowed? If it is, I'd like to try that. If not, is the Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil allowed? I'm slightly confused about the skill rule as well. I know my skillpoints are wrong but I didn't have time to fix them at the time of this post, sorry  

Assuming this is okay, I'm planning on going like this, though it's only a partial build right now; I will add more details later:

Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Archmage 3/Master Specialist 2

Feats:
1 Iron Will
2 Spell Focus: Necromancy
3 Improved Spell Focus: Necromancy
4 Chain Spell
5 Extend Spell
6 Persistent Spell
7 Maximize Spell
8 Empower Spell
9 Twin Spell
10 Quicken Spell
11 Spell Focus: Enchantment
12 Craft Wondrous Item
13 Leadership
14 Skill Focus: Spellcraft
15 Scribe Scroll


Skills:
Concentration (4)
Spellcraft (4)
Supernatural Lore (4)
Common Knowledge (4)
Diplomacy (2?)

VP 161 
WP 20
AC 10+5(Natural)+5(Deflection)+8(Armor)+5(Dexterity)=33
Fort:5(Base)+5(Ability)+5(Cloak)=15
Reflex:5(Base)+5(Ability)+5(Cloak)=15
Will:13(Base)+1(Ability)+5(Cloak)=19
Melee:9-1=8
Ranged:9+5=14
Initiative:+5


STR   08   
DEX   14 +6=20
VIT   14+6=20
INT    18 +4 (Human racial)+5(Level)+5(Inherent)+6(Headband)=38
WIS   12
CHA   08

Equipment: (All Bought)

Tome Of Understanding +5 137500

Headband Of Intellect +6 36000

Gloves of Dex +6 36000

Boots Of Con +6 36000

Amulet of Natural Armor +5 (50000)

Bracers of Armor +8 (64000)

Pearl of Power 9 (81000)

Bag Of Holding IV (10000)

Cloak Of Resistance +5 (2500)

Ring Of Protection +5 (50000)

Ring Of Spell Storing, greater (200000)

Normal Quicken Rod (75500)

2 Blessed Books (25000)

Wand Of Knock (4750)

Wand Of  Greater Invisibility (12000)


----------



## Nac Mac Feegle (Nov 30, 2007)

I'm going to laugh when all you casters who got Strength 8 and were too cheap to buy enhancements for it get hit by a single empowered Ray of Enfeeblement and get paralyzed.


----------



## OnlytheStrong (Nov 30, 2007)

And then my Ogre chops that caster of RoE in half.   Such good memories........... NMF I have 32,950gp left. How do I make something like bracers of constitution? I have my neck, head, shoulders, feet, and waist slots filled. (as well as rings)


----------



## Douane (Nov 30, 2007)

According to the Magic Item Compendium, body slots for CON are Throat, Torso and Waist.

So about about a nice "Vest of Endurance" (or similar) for CON +4 ? (16,000 GP)


----------



## farmboymdp (Nov 30, 2007)

Shayuri said:
			
		

> Farmboy...a few possible problems leap out at me.
> 
> One - You have a whole mess of base classes, and hence would be saddled with a pretty big exp penalty.
> 
> ...




I have explanations for these, but some aren't mistakes.

One - All my base classes are within one level of each other (2, 1, and 2 respectively), and thus don't suffer the XP penalties.

Two - I have 18 class levels, coupled with 2 Thri-Kreen HD add up to 20, Eidalac has said earlier not to worry about LA up to +5.

Three - The price on that item is not mine, it was drawn from another source. I'll double check to be sure and adjust the figures accordingly. I was unaware of the "surcharges" you're talking about, so I'll move some things around. (I'm surprised you didn't bring this up in Deuce's game, Morty has the same _neckerchief of disguise_)

Four - You're right about that one, my B. I didn't see that Swordsages couldn't use shields with that ability.

Five - I felt something was up about that one, somehow in my head I made it mithril armor during creation. I'll probably just switch to _bracers of armor_, I was thinking about it anyways.


Thank you for the comments, though, they were very helpful!


----------



## farmboymdp (Nov 30, 2007)

I fixed the things that Shayuri brought up, and added in the standard ability increases from level (which I had somehow forgot to do before). As far as I can tell, the price on the _mind blank_ item is 120,000 gp (spell level 8 x caster level 15 x 2,000 gp for continuous effect x 0.5 for 24-hour duration or longer; p. 285 of the DMG).


----------



## OnlytheStrong (Nov 30, 2007)

Douane said:
			
		

> According to the Magic Item Compendium, body slots for CON are Throat, Torso and Waist.
> 
> So about about a nice "Vest of Endurance" (or similar) for CON +4 ? (16,000 GP)





Why thank you good sir!


----------



## Nac Mac Feegle (Nov 30, 2007)

You still need to fix your attack routine.  You can't make more than 4 claw attacks in a round (before haste or anything like that) and one bite.


----------



## farmboymdp (Nov 30, 2007)

Nac Mac Feegle said:
			
		

> You still need to fix your attack routine.  You can't make more than 4 claw attacks in a round (before haste or anything like that) and one bite.




I mentioned in the post that I'm not sure how it is supposed to work. So are his natural attacks totally separate from his BAB in terms of attacks per round?


----------



## Nac Mac Feegle (Nov 30, 2007)

Yes.  You get one attack with each natural weapon, all secondary attacks (attacks beyond the first) are at -5, unless you have multiattack (or improved multiattack in my case) which lowers the penalty to -2.


----------



## farmboymdp (Dec 1, 2007)

Fixed!


----------



## Nac Mac Feegle (Dec 1, 2007)

If I'm calculating this right, your full (unarmed) attack should be four claws +33/+31/+31/+31 and a bite +31, you've got 5 claws and your bite is at +28.

And of course all this hinges on whether Eidelac allows Soul Eater (I looked over it, it's pretty crazy-powerful).


----------



## Eidalac (Dec 1, 2007)

Gah.  Sorry, only have a few moments tonight.

A few quick things then:

Soul Eater:
Most of the bonuses it grants are enhancements, so don't stack with magic items.

Incantatrix:
Been a while since i looked that up, but should be ok.


----------



## Nac Mac Feegle (Dec 1, 2007)

Only thing that looks a little crazy to me is the whole '2 negative levels with each touch attack' thing.


----------



## ethandrew (Dec 1, 2007)

Okay, the Ur-Priest Mystic Theurge build looked a little broken, in my opinion. 9th level arcane and divine spells? Could be fun, but a lot of bookkeeping. So I'm thinking about a straight up 20th level Dread Necromancer. Would this be acceptable?


----------



## Avalon® (Dec 1, 2007)

Eidalac, so what's your opinion of the Bloodseeker base class? Is it allowed.


----------



## Nac Mac Feegle (Dec 1, 2007)

I gotta say, I took a look at that class and I'm not sure at all about balance.  I just fiddled around with 20th level builds a little, but it's a little crazy.


----------



## Ryfte (Dec 1, 2007)

*Hey there...*

Curious... I was wondering what you thought of templates and LA?

I was thinking of throwing my hat in the ring with a Half-Fey Goblin Swordsage 20 (for purity... although a Psychic Rogue 3 / Swordsage 2 / Shadowmind 10 / Swordsage 5 could be fun...  )

The hobs racial advancement seems like a decent fit for swordsage too, lol...

Edit: Note half-fey would be an unseelie fey as opposed to a seelie fey... one of the bad guy fey. *shrug*


----------



## Avalon® (Dec 1, 2007)

If Eidalac doesn't like it, I've got other builds in mind.


----------



## Ryfte (Dec 1, 2007)

*Complete Scoundrel...*

Since you're using the house ruled skill system I take it skill tricks aren't being used?


----------



## Eidalac (Dec 1, 2007)

Mmr.  Pain hurts.

Anyways...

Skill Tricks:
Hrm.  They could work, but I'd have to do something about the cost, since a single skill point in this system is worth a good deal more than in core (up to 5 points), and RAW skill tricks cost 2 points.

Easiest way would be to give you 2 skill tricks per skill point you spend.  I'll have to try and look over CS this evening to see if that feels right.

Bloodseeker:
I'll have to say no.  I like the idea, but it's just a bit unwieldy and there were too many times I had to pause and triple read a section to figure out the intent of the author.

I could probably make it work to my satisfaction, but I've got enough tweaking to juggle with this game already.

Half-Fey:
Not familiar with that template, where's it from?

Depending on the template's abilities, you'd loose some of the goblin racial abilities to pay for the LA.


On the topic of LA...

I'm pondering just dropping the way I'm doing it and just using RAW, just for the sake of balance (such as it is at 20th level).

Still, in all fairness, I've had a bout of neck pain and headaches IRL the last few days, which is somewhat detracting from my ability to review the LA vs Racial Bonuses thing, so I may change my mind again once I get a good look-over on it all.

So, that's just a heads up to you LA folk to have a backup build in mind in case I do bring LA back in.


Oh, and on the Soul Eater:
I'm not liking the idea of him being able to deal a potential 10 negative levels per round.  So, what would you all think if the Energy Drain attack was limited to a full round action (for the single attack)?

Still a nasty ability, but not as over done.

Alternatively, I could take a page from the Vampire, and just say it's limited to 1 Energy Drain per round, which would still let him make use of a full attack action, just that only the first hit in a round would give the negatives.

Dread Necromancer:
That should be fine.  I like the idea of the Ur-Priest, but it has always been a bit over the top in terms of the raw caster levels it gives.


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## Avalon® (Dec 1, 2007)

Eidalac, would you accept a Beguiler 1/ Wizard 3/ Spellthief 1/ Mindbender 1/ Ultimate Magus 10/ Unseen Seer 4?


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## farmboymdp (Dec 1, 2007)

Eidalac said:
			
		

> So, that's just a heads up to you LA folk to have a backup build in mind in case I do bring LA back in.
> 
> 
> Oh, and on the Soul Eater:
> ...



Eidalac, I'll save you the trouble, I'll just scrap the character. I wasn't too attached to it anyways, I just saw the Soul Eater and the idea jumped to mind. I certainly don't want to aggravate any real-life problems, I know several friends who get migraines on a daily basis .

The only thing I do take issue with is a redunkulously-overpowered shapeshifter somehow being outraged at _my_ build .


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## Evilhalfling (Dec 1, 2007)

okay my magic items list :
106	Mithril Breastplate, called, Heavy Fort +5 (15lbs)
25	Vest resistance +5	
72	Rapier of puncturing +3	
0.4	4 vials bless weapon oil	
75	Rod of  Quickening 	
32      Rod of Reach 
37	mithril buckler  +5, deathward 	
110	Book of wisdom  +4 	
50	Ring of Pro +5 	
40	Ring of Freedom of movement
64	Belt of Animal Power +4(str,dex & con)
36	Peripat of wisdom  +6	
36	Cloak of Charisma +6	
3	Heward's handy Haversack 	
6.6	scroll Healx4	
28	Scroll Tru Rez	
10	Diamonds: 10k 	
4.5	circlet of persuasion 	
33  backup stash of magic items(+4wis,+2chr, +2 mithril shirt, 5kcash) 	
773.5k		Total


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## Shayuri (Dec 1, 2007)

Hmm

If LA less than 5 is really being handwaved, can I be a half-fiend warforged?

That'd be LA+4...

Oh wait, that has to be put on living creatures.

Blast. Anyone know of a good construct-friendly template for LA 5 or under?


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## ethandrew (Dec 1, 2007)

Eidalac said:
			
		

> Dread Necromancer:
> That should be fine.  I like the idea of the Ur-Priest, but it has always been a bit over the top in terms of the raw caster levels it gives.




I liked the Ur-Priest too, but I felt it was just too powerful. I was having 9th level Divine spells and 8th level Arcane plus 30+ Will Save. Just too much. Dread Necromancer would give me a good evil Lich with some good spell punch, not too off the wall.


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## OnlytheStrong (Dec 1, 2007)

I'm going to have to bow out of this game. Sorry.


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## Ryfte (Dec 1, 2007)

Shayuri said:
			
		

> Hmm
> 
> If LA less than 5 is really being handwaved, can I be a half-fiend warforged?
> 
> ...




Isn't a "living construct" a living creature? The term creature is broad enough to include a construct... isn't it?


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## Eidalac (Dec 2, 2007)

Ok, lets do this:

[D]-[/D] 
*Level Adjustment:*
While I still like the idea of non-la in theory, it's just becoming to hard to do at these level.

So, instead, all LA 0 races will get the full 5 abilities (keeping that stat boosts at +1).  As LA goes up, you get less abilities, as follows:


```
RAW LA	NEW LA	Racial Bonuses
0	0	5
1	0	3
2	0	1
3	1	0
4	2	0
5	3	0
```

New LA + Racial HD can not be more than 6.

Sound good?

[D]-[/D] 
*Fiendish Warforged?*
One of the original DeM characters was a fiendish warforged, so I'm not going to have issue with a half fiendish one.  The only meaningful consideration you have to take is that the character was made by a fiend or with fiendish mechanics rather than being born of a fiendish tryst.

[D]-[/D] 
*OnlytheStrong*
Sorry to hear that.

[D]-[/D] 
*farmboymdp*
No need to scrap the idea, simply limiting the energy drain power to once/round is enough to fix the class for my needs.  Since all the negative level creatures I've looked up that have multiple attacks seem to have 1/round limitations, I'd be willing to bet that was the original intent of the class anyway.

[D]-[/D] 
*Avalon®*
Beguiler 1/ Wizard 3/ Spellthief 1/ Mindbender 1/ Ultimate Magus 10/ Unseen Seer 4?

Ain't nothing wrong with that.

[D]-[/D] 

*Skill Tricks*
Okies, in this skill system, 1 skill point can be spent to gain 2 skill tricks.

[D]-[/D] 

I think that should cover everything save me actually looking over character sheets. 

(famous last words, I know. )


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Dec 2, 2007)

Alright, I think I got all my most common forms up there (mostly I'll be taking other forms if I need to quickly pick up, say, immunity to death effect, or fire resistance or something).  I've got: Primary Combat Form (Force Dragon), Grappling Combat Form (Astral Kraken), Ability Damage and Fast Healing Form (12-headed Hydra), and finally the various living spells if I want to nuke something.


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## Avalon® (Dec 2, 2007)

Since we're down to 8 applicants, how about if we can get a list of all the entries?
It would help us coordinate tactics and such.


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## Ryfte (Dec 2, 2007)

Eidalac said:
			
		

> *Skill Tricks*
> Okies, in this skill system, 1 skill point can be spent to gain 2 skill tricks.
> 
> (famous last words, I know. )




Those certainly are... famous... 

Okay... here goes... (using my 20th level swordsage as an example...)

6 + Int modifier skill points per level (and x4 at 1st level) = 184pts

New Skill System estimations...

Swordsage (as ranger/rogue base) 14pts. + Int modifier + 1/2 levels + 1/4 swordsage levels + Intelligence modifier = 29pts.

Swordsage Skills: Agility, Athletics, Awareness, Common Knowledge, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Sneak, Warcraft

Take Agility and Sneak as an example as well...

Agility (S) [Cost3 + 1classSkill(free)]
• +40 Balance +15dex+2synergy
• +40 Escape Artist +15dex+2synergy
• +40 Tumble +15dex+2synergy
• +38 Perform (dance) +15dex
• +40 Use Rope +15dex+2synergy

*Summary:*
In this system three skill points in class to Agility is worth 5 (number of skills) x 23 (ranks granted at 20th level) = *115* skill ranks!!!

*Recommendation...*
Make skill tricks swappable at a 1 feat = 4 skill tricks ratio. Since skill tricks are extremely situational and limited in uses as well they're far less powerful. In addition to this just adjudicate them as a good GM would. *shrug*


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## Shayuri (Dec 2, 2007)

Mew...I was semi-half-serious, actually...

Though, with your system, I could afford to be LA +1...I have two racial abilities that are totally redundant with my feats and abilities...

HMM.

Not many +1 templates though...

Hey! What's this Belt of Magnificence from? It seems like a huge bargain for adding +6 to so many stats... Does it do anything else? I may have to try to fit one of those into my budget...


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## Ryfte (Dec 2, 2007)

*Belt of Magnificence*

It's in the miniatures handbook and it is indeed merely 200k for +6 to all six stats. 

Edit: You don't save much in coin but slot-wise you really do.


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## Shayuri (Dec 2, 2007)

On the contrary, you save a BUNDLE.

All six items in separate slots is 216k.

But given that compressing each of them into one slot would incur a +50% charge on five of them, the real savings is really more like...106k! And even that's assuming there's no affinity surcharges.

But I think Nac's got an even better one...an item that does the same thing, but only costs 150,000. 

Hee...I think the GM might want to step in and make a ruling about what an item that does this (adds +6 to all stats) costs, cuz we're all over the map here.


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Dec 2, 2007)

Nah, I've got two items that each give +6 to 3 stats.


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## Shayuri (Dec 2, 2007)

Oh? Did I misread? I thought you had a belt that gave +6 to all physical...that you then added +6 to all mental stats to? That's still one item...

But I may have misread or misunderstood.


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## Ryfte (Dec 2, 2007)

Nac's got 2 items... a belt and a helm (i.e. circlet) with the stats split up but each item has other abilities. I've got the single belt for all stats but no other abilities stacked. *shrug*


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Dec 2, 2007)

Obviously the belt follows a different pricing scheme from the generic stuff, one of the perks of using published items .


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## Shayuri (Dec 2, 2007)

Oh oh, my bad then, Nac. Sorry about the confusion. 

Hee hee...ah, the pitfalls of epic gaming.


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## Eidalac (Dec 2, 2007)

Ok, here is a review of everything up in the RG at present:

Evilhafling:
Race?
Base Cha seems to have been 14, not 10 (14 gives the correct point buy, you just had 10 written down); the net 22 is correct.
Since we are using fractional saves, your net Reflexe base becomes 9, Will becomes 14 (fort unchanged).
Rapier of puncturing?  Source.

Nac Mac Feegle:
Serpent's Fangs?  Source.
Scintillating Scales?  What's that do?
Wild Shape forms - Your forms syould be limited to 15HD.  I'm fine with stacking the MoMF levesl with druid for this, but I don't think that the same should apply to the Warshaper levels.

Ryfte:
40 dex?  Damn.
60' move?  I shall call him... Ugly Black Flash!
Skill Tricks:  Hrm... Yeah, I think I like your idea of trading 1 feat for 4 tricks.
Gear:  Your armor would reduce your AC/Movement, as it's light armor with a +8 max dex bonus.  The only reason you'd ever want to wear it is for the non-armor abilities, so why not make it just a shirt (or some other form of clothing), dropping the armor portion altogther?


I still need to figure out the human racial ability...


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## Eidalac (Dec 2, 2007)

This is the list of proposed characters thus far (I think, I may have missed some since they are scattered across the thread).

RG:
Dark Goblin, Swordsage 20
Human Druid 5/Master of Many Forms 10/Warshaper 5
? Cleric 17/ Disciple of Baalzebul 3
? ?Beguiler 1/ Wizard 3/ Spellthief 1/ Mindbender 1/ Ultimate Magus 10/ Unseen Seer 4?

Discussion:
? Dread Necromancer
? Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Archmage 3/Master Specialist 2
Warforged Warmage 20?


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## Scott DeWar (Dec 2, 2007)

OnlytheStrong said:
			
		

> I'm going to have to bow out of this game. Sorry.





does this mean there might be a slot for a player? perhaps a tank type?

edit:
the link below is for my lew pc, not a potential submittal for this game...fyi.


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## Shayuri (Dec 2, 2007)

Oh heck, did I forget to post Omega to the RG?

My bad.

Will fix!


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## Ryfte (Dec 2, 2007)

Eidalac said:
			
		

> Ok, here is a review of everything up in the RG at present:
> 
> Ryfte:
> 40 dex?  Damn.
> ...




Uhhh... yeah... gear for the most part was a carryover from a different character...  I'll be updating that shortly.


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Dec 2, 2007)

Eidalac said:
			
		

> Nac Mac Feegle:
> Serpent's Fangs?  Source.
> Scintillating Scales?  What's that do?
> Wild Shape forms - Your forms syould be limited to 15HD.  I'm fine with stacking the MoMF levesl with druid for this, but I don't think that the same should apply to the Warshaper levels.




Serpent's Fangs: From complete Divine (Wild Feats).
Scintillating Scales: From Spell Compendium and Draconomicon, it turns your NA bonus into a deflection bonus.  Not great normally, since it decreases how many things you can stack, but if you happen to have +24 NA bonuses regularly it really helps out the ol' touch AC.

HD: You're totally right, I somehow remembered Wild Shape as being based on your HD, not your druid level.  As sweet as the benefits of Warshaper are, I might have to switch over to Druid 10/Master of Many Forms 10, because those high-HD forms are killers.  Give me a bit to think it over, I'll have something revised by tomorrow.


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## Eidalac (Dec 2, 2007)

Scott DeWar:
Possibly.  However, IIRC, ATM, there are 8, and that's the max I'll start out with.

Nac:
Easy fix might be to say that MoMF levels count as half for Wildshape HD.  If we do that, as stated already, it'd make your HD limit 10 without shifting levels around.

RAW, MoMF doesn't work as druid levels for HD (unless there is errata I don't know about), but I think it makes perfect sense for it to at least count partially.


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Dec 2, 2007)

I dunno, MoMF seems a little...lame if it doesn't stack, considering that druids can turn into a rather impressive selection of things at 20th level and get their supernatural and spell like abilities.


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## Eidalac (Dec 2, 2007)

Oh, sorry, misunderstood your last post.

Yeah, I'm find with MoMF stacking for HD purposes.


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Dec 2, 2007)

So yeah, I figure I'll lose warshaper.  It gets rid of some cool abilities, but 20HD forms are like delicious crack so I'll live somehow.  It'll also give me a bit of leeway with cooler druid spells (I get Flame Strike, YAY!).


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## Ryfte (Dec 3, 2007)

Sooo... with gear now... (which isn't done but getting close...) Artim's attack...

+34/+34/+34/+29/+29/+24 melee, Unarmed Strike, 2d10 + 22 + wrack spell (Fort DC15) + level drain(2lvls on a crit.) + poison (FortDC20;1d10/1d10 Con) + (crit only) 1 Con, 20/x2 (full; two-weapon attack sequence + snap kick)

Gear can really make things scary! If you allowed the souleater you could *REALLY* rack up those level drains!!!


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## ethandrew (Dec 3, 2007)

I should ask, would the Libris Mortis be allowed for feats for my Dread Necromancer? Also, I'm toying with the idea of having an undead mount/cohort. Probably a skeletal dragon, only Large size, though, based on the HD restrictions. Thoughts?


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## Eidalac (Dec 3, 2007)

Libris should be fine for feats, and an undead mount wouldn't be the strangest thing by a long shot.


Looking over the Undead Leadership feat and extrapolating the HD limits on skeletal cohorts, you could get a 34 HD skeletal dragon... but that would suck.  Plus, the idea of a mindless cohort is, well, dumb.

So, I tooled around a bit with the Evolved Undead template to make something that should be suitable (it's not 100% fine tuned, but should be pretty close).  I basically ignored the int restriction on the template and traded the +2 cha for a +1 int per instance.  In place of the special attacks of the template, I gave a few feats, some skills and a fly speed.

I'm a bit concerned about the fast healing; I may take it down to 14 (the base 3 +11 for the other applications of the feat, rather than +3 each time).

[sblock="Dragon"]Evolved Skeletal <type> Dragon		CR 15ish
NE Large Undead
Init +4; Senses Blindsense 60', keen senses; Awareness +18

AC 22 (-1 size, +13 natural), touch 9, flat 22
HP 150 (20 HD), WP 14; DR 3/-, DR 5/bludgeoning
Fast Healing 36
Immune <type>, cold; SR 20
Turn Resistance +12
Fort +12, Ref +12, Will +12

Spd 60', Fly 60' (poor)
Melee bite +40 (2d8+20) and 2 claws +35 (2d6+10) and 2 wings +30 (1d8+10) and tail slap +25 (2d6+30)
Space 15' (long); Reach 10' (15' with bite)
Atk Options Frightfull Presence (210', will DC 22)
BaB +20; Grp +42

S +20, Dex +0, Con -, Int +1, Wis +0, Cha +2
Feats Improved Iniative, Unholy Toughness
Skills Awarness (G) +18, Athletics (G) +38, Intimidate (G) +20, Spellcraft (G) +19[/sblock]


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## Ryfte (Dec 3, 2007)

Eidalac... why is the fast healing a concern? It's got a really low AC and very little DR... so it will take a ton of damage. *shrug*


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## Avalon® (Dec 3, 2007)

Eidalac, can we use the Spell Compendium?

[sblock=Else...]May I suggest downloading from a P2P (peer to peer) program the requested book? Limewire has it...[/sblock]


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## Scott DeWar (Dec 3, 2007)

Eidalac said:
			
		

> Scott DeWar:
> Possibly.  However, IIRC, ATM, there are 8, and that's the max I'll start out with.




if you would keep me as an alternate player, that would be nice...if you want i can give a pc submittal, or i can remain open for what ever may be needed.


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## Ryfte (Dec 3, 2007)

Scott DeWar said:
			
		

> if you would keep me as an alternate player, that would be nice...if you want i can give a pc submittal, or i can remain open for what ever may be needed.




Hmmm... I don't think it was a "first submitted first accepted" model Scott. Thus you should do a full submit anyways... right Eidalac?


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## Eidalac (Dec 3, 2007)

Gah.  I think the Internet is rejecting me...

Anyway:

The fast healing is only a minor concern.  I did that late last night, so haven't had a chance to do a good crunch to see how all the factors work.

I don't have Spell Compendium, and it would take me weeks to acquire it.  I'd be willing to consider individual spells, provided you can get me all the info on them, but there are only so many I can effectively keep track of, so go easy, k? 

And, yeah, order of entry will be a tertiary factor if I have to pick from the applicants.  The character concept and execution will be of greater importance.


Lords, it's been nearly 5 hours since I first started typing this up...


Oh, and I'm thinking about Wednesday to get this party started.


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## Evilhalfling (Dec 3, 2007)

Nac Mac Feegle said:
			
		

> I dunno, MoMF seems a little...lame if it doesn't stack, considering that druids can turn into a rather impressive selection of things at 20th level and get their supernatural and spell like abilities.




I thought Druids only get supernatural abilities of elementals. Does MoMF broaden this to any shape? 

Also Force dragons are epic monsters - do they still exist in this modified epic game? 

I figure my character is woefully underpowered in comparison, mostly because Im not practiced with making PCs of this level. Any suggestions would be welcome. 
However I figure such things will mater less is an online game. Unless we start killing each other, not an impossibility with an all evil party of worldbeaters. 

Rapier of puncturing +2 is in DMG, at 50k Sakers is upgraded to +3 @ 75k 
Both of my characters parents were human, infact they were (very) closely related.... but that is another story.  That would leave Seker human as well.


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## Scott DeWar (Dec 3, 2007)

Eidalac said:
			
		

> ...And, yeah, order of entry will be a tertiary factor if I have to pick from the applicants.  The character concept and execution will be of greater importance...



right...i will read in the post and find the character gen data and where to submitt my submittle.

thanks!!


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## Ryfte (Dec 4, 2007)

Evilhalfling said:
			
		

> I figure my character is woefully underpowered in comparison, mostly because Im not practiced with making PCs of this level. Any suggestions would be welcome.
> However I figure such things will mater less is an online game. Unless we start killing each other, not an impossibility with an all evil party of worldbeaters.
> 
> Rapier of puncturing +2 is in DMG, at 50k Sakers is upgraded to +3 @ 75k
> Both of my characters parents were human, infact they were (very) closely related.... but that is another story.  That would leave Seker human as well.




Hmmm... well... you might want to seriously consider persistent divine magic... It's extremely useful *shrug* You also might reconsider the 3 level dip = Caster level loss trade-off. 

Disciple of Asmodeus at least gets you 2 more caster levels... which means you'd only lose 1 caster level. *shrug* Crafting can save you a lot of $$$ as well... so if you roll out your xp and get 9k extra you've got a bit of flex for item creation there. 

If you're *really* looking to optimize more spend a little time and read through some of this link over at the optimization boards. But remember it's better to play a character you enjoy anyways! *shrug* Of course if there's a more effective version of a character you really like playing it's often more fun to play... especially if other players do optimize their characters... especially with evil characters!


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Dec 4, 2007)

You sir, are the voice of the dark side.  I'll have you know all my optimizations are hand crafted in my own kitchen with only the finest organic ingredients.


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## Shayuri (Dec 4, 2007)

Hee...as long as we're talking optimization...

I wonder if I should take Warlock instead of Warmage.

It's a similar party role, and potentially more useful...


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## Ryfte (Dec 4, 2007)

Nac Mac Feegle said:
			
		

> You sir, are the voice of the dark side.  I'll have you know all my optimizations are hand crafted in my own kitchen with only the finest organic ingredients.




Ah... but this is an evil themed thread... therefore my actions are most in character, are they not?!?!  

People who haven't made high level characters from scratch can use all the help they can get. 

I myself am considering a slightly different spin on my character and changing it to Gnox the Toxic with lots of poison and being an aberration instead of extraplanar... I'm liking the image/concept...


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## Ryfte (Dec 4, 2007)

Shayuri said:
			
		

> Hee...as long as we're talking optimization...
> 
> I wonder if I should take Warlock instead of Warmage.
> 
> It's a similar party role, and potentially more useful...




More thematically evil in most cases as well. *shrug*


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Dec 4, 2007)

A chance to start at high level as a warlock IS pretty awesome.  You could also consider the hybrid (Mystic Theurge-style) classes for Warlocks, I think they're in Complete Mage.


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## Zurai (Dec 4, 2007)

Re: Epic Warlocks...

I don't know exactly how Eidalac intends to do his Epic house rules, but if he's allowing Epic feats at all, Warlocks have some excellent ones available courtesy of WotC. Lord of All Essences and Eldritch Sculptor in particular are astounding.


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## Ryfte (Dec 4, 2007)

Yep, I ran a 26th level straight warlock for a bit... it was a lot of fun.


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## Shayuri (Dec 4, 2007)

Hmm...hard call. I'd lose a lot...I'd lose my heavy adamantine armor (which admittedly is kind of nerfed a bit under the armor as DR rule...and it wouldn't stack with my warlock DR anyway...). And I'd lose a lot of powerful blasties.

But I'd have superior defense and utility powah.

I dunno. Eclectic Learning makes warmages much more viable.

But warlocks are so COOL. And the concept of it being "magical technology" kind of works better when everything is at-will.


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## Ryfte (Dec 4, 2007)

Hmmm... is a six-armed, 18 unarmed attack based character too much? I'm actually avoiding the super cheese of stormguard warrior, lol...

nah, nevermind... I'll focus on Artim although it's tempting.


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## Shayuri (Dec 5, 2007)

Okay.

Been thinking all day. I'm gonna go warlock. It'll help keep definition between me and other arcanists too.

New character build should be up tonight.

Need some invocations checked. Dragon Magic has a class similar to warlocks called Dragon Adept. They have invocations too...and I wanted to see if I could swipe some for my warlock. 

GM...d'ya have Dragon Magic? And if not, could I submit some invocations for individual approval?


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## Evilhalfling (Dec 5, 2007)

SC spells: 
Resist Energy, mass (4th) 
all targets must be within 30' of each other, 1 target per caster level. Otherwise as resist energy. 

Is it possible to use the fiendish codex version of hellfire/helfire storm? 
It does 1d6 damage per/2 levels capped at 5d6 / 10d6 
but otherwise mimics the BoVD spells.  

What do we lack to start?


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## Ryfte (Dec 5, 2007)

Finishing details from a few characters... mine inclusive.


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## ethandrew (Dec 5, 2007)

I've been crazily busy over these past few days, but I'll see if I can't type up my character and get in what I've gotten done so far, so at least there's something to peruse.


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## Ryfte (Dec 6, 2007)

*Artim is more... fun build wise now...*

He's...

Male, Dark Spellwarped Goblin
Rogue 1 / Swordsage 4 (+6) / Warblade 3 / Invisible Blade 1 (+2) / Thrall of Demogorgon 1 / Legacy Champion 10

I'll get him done this evening hopefully.

Edit: Note the (+#) on the swordsage and invisible blade are equivalent class levels for all class features except BaB, Skills, and Saves which are granted by Legacy Champion.

I'm also using the correct requirements for the invisible blade; not the printed ones. I'll provide a link to the corrected version as well... later tonight.


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## Ryfte (Dec 6, 2007)

*DM Feedback...*

Hmmm... I'd been hoping for some feedback on the sources/materials/concept I've been using for Artim... anyone here?


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## Shayuri (Dec 6, 2007)

Just finalizing my rebuild.

But I have this bad feeling...the GM's been online, but hasn't been active in the thread.

I hope I'm just paranoid.


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## Ryfte (Dec 6, 2007)

Yeah, lol. I'm reluctant to finish Artim up without an okay on my selected sources since I'm not sure what's going on with the thread. *shrug*


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## Avalon® (Dec 7, 2007)

Eidalac, I want to request access to several spells located in the Spell Compendium but it would be tiresome to type them all here. May I send you an email instead?

Also, what is your take for the leadership feat for this game?

Edit: Nermind the second question. Found an answer in the thread.


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## Avalon® (Dec 9, 2007)

So... Is this thing still on?


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## Shayuri (Dec 9, 2007)

My PBP nose is starting to smell the distinct scent of AWOL GM.

I haven't given up yet, but that's largely because not giving up doesn't require any effort from me.

Until he posts again, I'm not spending another erg on character development...though all the work is basically done on my part now.

At this point though, given that he's been on several times and basically ignored this thread (apparently), I don't have good prognosis for the game.


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## Ryfte (Dec 10, 2007)

Feeling the same. *shrug*


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