# Saving EnWorld Brainstorm (long-term less-technical discussion)



## Graf (Oct 28, 2003)

If there is another thread already dealing with this that I've missed please link and close....

I, like a lot of other folks, was a bit surprised by the post on the front page. I don't think there is any reason why the site cost Morrus anything out of his own pocket (above and beyond the lost opportunity cost). While 400* dollars a month is not a huge amount of money I think it would be good of us to think about ways that EnWorld can organize itself to ensure that it feeds itself, so to speak.
*=This number may change. If you're familiar with webhosting please check here see if you can help.

Full disclosure: This sounds closest to me like developing a business plan. I've never done that, so if anybody has real world experience and feels like chipping in that would be particularly welcome.

Note: This isn't meant to imply that Morrus, Pkitty and co haven't spent a lot of time and effort on this already. Nor is this an attempt to change EnWorld into some kind of money chasing machine or remove it from the control of Morrus. I think that everybody agrees he's done a tremendous job. But I don't like the idea that *he has to pay for the site personally* AND I think there is probably a way to generate cash flow in a way that respects what EnWorld is.

I see some possibilities 
1. Raising the cost of memberships. Right now memberships are relatively cheap and last for a long time. Increasing the membership cost or decreasing the duration would generate more cash flow.
Cons: Members of the community have very different financial situations. Some of the functions, like Search, can be essential to participating. Would making multiple levels of membership be excessively elitiest? What are technical hurdles involved? In six months, or 2 years are enough people going to remember Oct. 28th and continue to be willing to contribute?

2. Generating more sales of EnWorld published products. My impression is that this would involve a lot of effort for a fairly small revenue stream.

3. Banner-ads. This would probably have to be banner ads that led to sales. Just clicking through a 100 times is just damaging people who are already giving Morrus money to run the site.

4. WotC just giving Morrus 400 dollars a month. (You know the site is worth it to them in terms of revenues, but they'd want something in return.)
In case it wasn't clear the above line is humorous. not serious. Everything else in this post is meant to be useful, though may not be.

5. Introduction of charges for previously free services or new services with charges
I think this is unlikely to be fruitful, but there may be something here I've missed. 
The most valuable real estate that isn't being pimped on the site is the first page. A sponsored link inserted in the text might be worth a bit of money. I think this is contrary to the unbiased spirit that Eric and Morrus have always run the site in, but it's probably worth discussing.
Other possibilities a) pay by post (AKA the Crothian Tax) www.Salon.com does this. b) Pay to upload files (people have already donated their time and effort in creating files so I don't think taxing them is particularly a good idea) c) pay to post at a specific location like PbP games (this is unlikely to generate significant revnue).

6. Frequent raffles, games, giveaways, etc.
We've seen a lot of contests (Kai Lord's Todd Lockear art thing, Teflon Billy's haiku, etc.) which have been commendably non-profit oriented. I think we could probably do some kind of modified profit-oriented raffles too.
This could be one of the few win-win solutions. Companies benefit from positive publicity and enWorld continues to operate. The problem would be logistics, making sure the products would be things people are interested in purchasing etc. Maybe signed or otherwise unique or collectable books?

6a. The Ennie book raffle. Ennie judges currently can choose to keep a copy of all the books that are nominated for an Ennie (this could also be written as "just about every D&D book printed that year"). While a number of judges donate their books (Teflon Billy?) and others who are professional reviewers probably don't get a 2nd copy (I'm just assuming some like Psion doesn't get two copies I have no idea and apologize if I'm wrong) that's still hundreds of dollars worth of materials.
Cons. *Being a judge is already a lot of work, just having to bundle up all those books (even if they don't do anything else)is more work.
*Lots of shipping costs.
*Judges wouldn't be compensated -at all for their effort. From a strict economic theory standpoint that would lead to a tendency toward lower quality of judges.
*Possible book damage (might raise the value.... this bloodstain is from trying to commit suicide after reading the 1000th prestige class)

7. Lower bandwidth usage
The only real way I can see to lower bandwith usage would be to offer less content. Unfortunately the bandwidth drain seems to be related primarily to one part of the site: the front news page. It's updated frequently and gets a lot of visitors as a result. Removing that would effectively gut the site. But I don't know much about web stuff, so I could be confused. How much do functions like search require? Allowing people to post pictures?

Suggestions? Thoughts?
[edit=spelling, a sentence about the profit oriented raffle for clarity, another about judges and economic tendencies, formating the core sentence]


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## Krug (Oct 28, 2003)

Morrus, what kind of job are you looking for btw? Maybe some of us can keep a lookout. 

Perhaps we should nix avatars or only allow avatars off-site. Is that the case already?


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## JoeGKushner (Oct 28, 2003)

It really depends on what Morrus wants to do with EN World. Is this just something on the side, a hobby or a business? Previous post by Morrus indicate that this is "hobbyish" but at the same time, if he hasn't been working, he's basically been living off of ? the site?

Controling cost in manufacturing is often handled by JIT, just in time, but I don't think that Morrus can really use 'lean' manufacturing. Cutting some services like the science fiction material, fewer boards, no hosting, merging of forums, might go well in some ways. Reduced avatars, signatures and other options can be examined.

Other things may be outside, like merging. Mortality is a fairly friendly site. They already officialy host several publishers. Could they do something with En World with EN World staying itself? I don't know.

Morrus is in the UK. I don't know what their financial situation is, but it seems overlooked sometimes when prices are touted out here.

The 'joke' about Wizards of the Coast might not be a bad idea in and of itself. This place is often just as, if not more busy than Wizard's own site. I've told MOrrus on more than one occassion that he shouldn't underestimate the power that EN World has and the strength of it's brand. Wizards benefits hugely, especially from the Ennies. Perhaps they might be the ones to host the forums as opposed to say Mortailty?

There are ways to generate revenue, as pointed out.

1. Increased member use. 

2. Increased Sales of PDF material. This would mean that more material would have to come out. Librum Equitis 3? In addition, how much does Morrus actually make on these? Most of the products are from third parties that use Morrus kinda as a publishing house or name brand. Ambient was strong before, but even they tend to use others like they did for Crimson Contracts.

3. Increased Ads. 

In the end, it's going to boil down to what Morrus wants to do with the site and what his long term goals are for it. If it's got to pay for itself, then it's going to have to become more of a business. If it's a hobby that he's going to pay for, well, he needs a hella of a job to get that extra $4,800 per year on a steady basis.


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## jdavis (Oct 28, 2003)

The quickest way right now would be for those of us who live here to try to pony up more fundage. I really feel bad I put off paying for a community supporter for so long, it's just one of those things you don't think about except when something like this happens. Maybe the community just has to do more over a period of time instead of getting hit with these crazy putting out fires deadlines. $400 isn't a lot when you consider just how many of us there are here, if everybody gave $1 a month then we would have...... well a whole lot of dollars. While I know that isn't always feasable there has to be something we can all do now and for the next several months till things level back out. I wouldn't want this to become a pay site but maybe we could leave the donation stuff up for a while?

(edit: I saw in the other thread it was talked about doing this once a year like a telethon, that's a real good idea)


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## ashockney (Oct 28, 2003)

Former bank VP
10 years management experience
MBA

Contact me directly if you want to work on a business plan.  I would be sure to include others (particularly with internet start up and/or NFP experience on your business development team).

ashockne@columbus.rr.com


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## spacecrime.com (Oct 28, 2003)

Couple of general thoughts. I like the brainstorminess of your initial post, BTW, Graf -- wish I had some gonzo ideas to add to it, but I'm more in evaluate mode at the moment.

I don't think looking for cheaper services is an answer per se. It's always nice to save money, but the first business thing I learned over my daddy's knee is "You can't save your way to success." Generating income is always going to be a better long-term solution than reducing expenses.

$400/month shortfall really isn't that much. 150 new $35 subscribers a year would cover it, and it's clear from today that there are a lot of people on the forums who are happy to contribute if they see there's a need. I've never *not* wanted to contribute, but I've always figured I could get around to it someday. Today it became clear that if I didn't do it today there wouldn't be an EN World tomorrow. 

I'm happy to contribute again, but I may need the reminder of why it is necessary (hopefully not a doom-in-12-hours reminder). Pledge drives are a good way to do that. I don't need histrionics, just the basic facts about what is needed and when and where to contribute.

As a businessman, I like the idea of pledge drives because it provides me an opportunity for me to give away samples of whatever it is *I* sell. If there are pledge drives for EN World in the future, I think it's a pretty good bet that there will be an e-book from Chris Aylott or some kind of goodie from the Space-Crime Continuum available. It's simply good business for me to do that.

Anyway, lots of good ideas above. I just wanted to add my reaction to some of the ones I particularly like.

cheers,


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## BrooklynKnight (Oct 28, 2003)

best way to help Enworld is to find better hosting.
If you have suggestions or links please post them here
http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=67541


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## jester47 (Oct 28, 2003)

A donation of $12 per person that visits and posts regularly would cover the costs of operation no problemo.  

The most gonzo idea that I can think of is a $12 a year membership.  

Some points- it is really the messageboard community that is bailing out EN world today.  They are the ones that care.  I think that a membership of $10 is not unreasonable to ask of everyone posting on the messageboards.  

The only problem is that there is a good chance that a large portion of the donations might be coming from lurkers.  

Also, having a membership to use the boards might backfire.  The wonder of ENworld is the accessability.  Put a price on it and you open up a whole new can of worms.

So, with that idea and those thoughts in mind, it seems to me that the best plan is doing what we are doing today, in essence an annual pledge drive to raise money for hosting through the year with the base donation being $12.  Basicly a buck a month.  

at 12 you would only need 400 donations to clear the hosting cost.  Less if we find cheaper hosting.  

Aaron.


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## Alzrius (Oct 28, 2003)

I'd say an annual fundraiser should do the trick. Once a year is, IMHO, roughly how much the lay person wants to donate to a cause that appears ("appears" being the operative term) to not be in immediate danger of disappearance.

That said, given that this site costs roughly $5000 or so annually ($400 x 12 months plus other expenses), and we've earned that and more in under twelve hours...I think that'd work to keep EN World in the clear indefinately.


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## kenjib (Oct 28, 2003)

I don't mind donating myself, but I don't think that making membership compulsory is a good idea.  IMO it would remove enough traffic from the boards to ruin the high volume that makes ENWorld such a good resource.  It is also apparent from today's response that a compulsory membership is not required either.

EDIT:  I like the pledge drive idea.  It works well enough for public radio...


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## BSF (Oct 28, 2003)

jester47 said:
			
		

> Some points- it is really the messageboard community that is bailing out EN world today.  They are the ones that care.  I think that a membership of $10 is not unreasonable to ask of everyone posting on the messageboards.
> 
> Aaron.




I will politely disagree with you.    My DM hardly ever uses the messageboards, despite my attempts to engage him otherwise.  He mostly stops by to read the news and see what new products are coming out.  Nevertheless, he sent Morrus an email asking if he could donate, etc.  With Morrus later adding the info to the news page, there may be people that were happy to donate and _still_ won't check the messageboards.  Let's not forget those people!

I think a fund raising drive every so often would be a great idea.  I am utterly amazed at how much was generated so quickly today.  I knew everyone could do it, but I did not expect the overabundance of generosity.    For a scheduled fund raiser, I think it would be more successful if we could keep some fun to it.  And a Thank you present.

Maybe volunteers could throw together a PDF of NPC's, or magic items, or Artifiacts or locations, you get the idea.  It wouldn't need to be the best polished thing, just useful.  Maybe somebody would be willing to do a little edit work on it?  Then, offer it as a community thank you to everyone that donates during a fund drive.  I know I could dig a few things up and I would be happy to participate.  I just do not trust my editing skills.  Best of all, even the volunteers would have some motivation to donate so they could see what everyone else added to the PDF.


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## Mistwell (Oct 28, 2003)

Cross-posted from the other donation thread (the long one).  Might be more useful here:

Some thoughts for the future.


1. I agree this should be a yearly event, or every six months. A donation drive, with specific goals in mind, set on a specific date known well in advance, would make this run smoother and be easier to handle.

2. The donation drive could be backed by d20 Products donated by various third party publishers who frequent this board. I know there are tons of people who would be willing to donate a spare product or two here and there for a good cause, and goals can be set to get such products. For example "Donate $50 and get a free copy of Four Color To Fantasy" (hypothetical example only), or "choose from one of the following products", and have larger "gifts" linked to larger donations. People could offer services in exchange for donations to EnWorld as well. I know I would be willing to offer some free legal work to small press d20 publishers who donate X amount to EnWorld, and I'm sure other professionals would be willing to offer their services as well.

3. Incorporate as a non-profit organization in the US. This one involves more work, and some costs, but in the end I think it would be worth it. That way, contributions could be tax free to US taxpayers, and could be totally above board. In addition, I've done non-profit filings before, and I'd be happy to donate some time to helping you do this, if you are interested.

4. Get Paypal and your own credit card e-commerce account up and running. I know Morrus hates paypal, and I am sure there are good reasons for this. But, it's just too useful a method of collecting payments to totally dismiss it without looking in to it one more time.

5. Have a running chat session going for the "telethon", with goals per hour, specific "gifts" for first people to donate X amount in that hour, guest speakers popping in to encourage people to donate, etc... The chat could be on the message board itself, instead of a running chat screen, or both.

6. If possible, set the monetary goals higher than just costs to run the board for a year (or six months, or whatever the time frame between donation drives). A small salary is appropriate for the person who heads this whole board, and if at all possible it would be nice to send some cash to the good folks who help run it as well (like moderators, reviewers, reporters, etc...), not to mention the desire to sponsor special events. I know that seems far fetched, in a time of crises like this one, but I really think that a well-run donation campaign could generate a lot more money for this board than even this amazing turnout would indicate.


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## barsoomcore (Oct 28, 2003)

kenjib said:
			
		

> I don't mind donating myself



Yeah, I'd be happy to donate myself. Not sure what Morrus would do with me once he got me, though...


> but I don't think that making membership compulsory is a good idea.  IMO it would remove enough traffic from the boards to ruin the high volume that makes ENWorld such a good resource.



Totally agree. The greatest thing about ENWorld is the amount of material and the numbers of posters -- that combined with the great mods and admins we have here who weed out the trolls.

But I would be suspicious of any plan that made it harder for people to post here.


> It is also apparent from today's response that a compulsory membership is not required either.



Exactly. It's unfortunate that it took such a drastic situation to wake us all up, but I'm convinced that a yearly pledge drive can more than suffice. Look at what we just did in a matter of hours.

I know I would commit money once a year. It's what, $5,000 a year? If 100 of us commit $50 we're golden. 200 of us commit $25. I don't think that's asking a lot of this community.

I would prefer to see no sponsorship, either by WotC or any other d20 company. Money given that way brings with it the threat that it can be taken away.

This is OUR site (no offence, Morrus, but I think this is true. It is us, the community, who make this place what it is -- not that we don't depend on you and your tireless efforts). We should be responsible for keeping it in place -- AND for assuming the financial burden that that entails.

My thoughts -- but it looks like we aren't going to have to worry about this for a little while yet...


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## Tarrasque Wrangler (Oct 28, 2003)

Mistwell: Great great GREAT idea.  I had a similar idea a couple months ago (when Morrus broached the full-time job subject) and I said that I thought it would be a good idea to run a special on Community Supporter Accounts.  Make it, say, $15 or $20/year for a week or two, and some people who are on the fence or just can't spend $30 would jump on board.  Or make it full price and throw in some EN World Publishing PDFs.  Or some combination to sweeten the deal and rope in some people.

I can see now that what Morrus really needed was quick cash, and apparently CSAs take two months to go from your wallet to Morrus's.  But I think he should really try one of these great ideas as a way to sock cash away for the future.  It brings in hard coin AND makes members feel good about contributing to the welfare of the site AND gives them some nice perks for their effort.


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## Alzrius (Oct 28, 2003)

Tarrasque Wrangler said:
			
		

> Make it, say, $15 or $20/year for a week or two, and some people who are on the fence or just can't spend $30 would jump on board.




Now _that_ is a great idea! I can really see that one paying off time after time.

On the corporate sponsorship thing, I agree with most people that that would be something we wanted to avoid. Being owned by a company carries strings...its just a fact. This is a community by of the gamers, by the gamers, for the gamers...lets leave it at that.


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## Wraith101 (Oct 28, 2003)

As you might notice, this is only one of a few of my posts on these boards (I make my home elsewhere on the web). if I had to pay to use them, I wouldn't even bother to lurk(I do a lot of lurking here. . . ).

I do think it is a good idea to sell volunteer products, I would be willing to be a sub-editor(plus a writer of course) no worries. 

EnWorld must surely have the highest traffic among RPG sites so I don't know why advertising is not paying off.


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## jasper (Oct 28, 2003)

How much space/time/money/bandwidth will be save if  you delete the posts after a certain time? Ex. OT on general board automatically deleted 14 days after last activity. General board deletes after 90. Story hour posts delete after 120. Etc Longer time before deletion on boards with less activity. 

How much etc will be saved if limit avatars, signatures, and size of pictures? It seems to me most of time the pics are posted are either after cons or to rib Piratecat.

What is the breakeven point for membership at $10 per year, $5 per year, $15 per year, $20 per year?

Could set different membership rates up? Ex $5 lurker mode few posts per day or week, no search function etc. Ex $20 banner full search etc.

What process or plan will be in place to show accountability? Is the books going to open, closed or etc?


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## Krug (Oct 28, 2003)

Besides autographed pics, maybe some of the artists could do a sketch your char thing with donations to EN World. Hey if Todd Lockwood obliged... 

Or a guest appearance in some publication...


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## Sialia (Oct 28, 2003)

I'd sure like to see ENWorld file for the non-profit status and have a formal business plan.

It wouldn't have to be elaborate, just enough to know what our expectations as a community are, and our commitments to ourselves.

We may have raised a lot of money in what seemed like a few hours, but in reality, the money was raised over many, many months of being invovled with each other and caring about each other.

Lots of people, myself incluced, "always meant to support ENWorld but never got around to it."

The reasons were many, but mostly there was no really easy and secure way to send the payment. Everyone kept bombarding me with Paypal horror stories.

I think Expeditious Retreat's idea was fabulous and easy (and I hope probably generated some traffic for them too.) I worry slightly about whether it's all strictly legal, or whether we could go on using that, and what we'd lose to taxes and processing fees.

If we set up an annual pledge/membership drive, I'd need to know that we had a legal, safe and secure way to handle the money, and to account for what it got spent on. Maybe some community input about the budget priorities: e.g. is it more important to have a faster server or be online for another month or pay our administrator for his time and effort? Obviously we want all of these things, but maybe we should formally itemize the things we spend money on and be generally aware of them and what they are likely to run us in the next year.

A business plan would address that sort of thing.


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## Sialia (Oct 28, 2003)

P.S. I'd happily donate a piece of art to a fundraising auction.

I might even volunteer to help compile a PDF of "the Best of ENWorld Messageboards 2003" which could be distributed to donors . . .


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## Yellow Sign (Oct 28, 2003)

jasper said:
			
		

> How much space/time/money/bandwidth will be save if  you delete the posts after a certain time? Ex. OT on general board automatically deleted 14 days after last activity. General board deletes after 90. Story hour posts delete after 120. Etc Longer time before deletion on boards with less activity.
> 
> How much etc will be saved if limit avatars, signatures, and size of pictures? It seems to me most of time the pics are posted are either after cons or to rib Piratecat.




 I would really be sad to see a automatic deletion of posts and or limiting of avatars, signatures, and pictures. 

My 2 cents.


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## jgbrowning (Oct 28, 2003)

Sialia said:
			
		

> I think Expeditious Retreat's idea was fabulous and easy (and I hope probably generated some traffic for them too.) I worry slightly about whether it's all strictly legal, or whether we could go on using that, and what we'd lose to taxes and processing fees.




I don't know about the rest of your post but this part I can answer. Yes, it's strictly legal. We're going to try to find some strictly legal ways of reducing the amount of taxes that has to get paid, but it will most definitely be legal.

Right now were discussing how to do this and exploring our options. Some processing fees will always be there, like merchant acount fees and transaction fees (unless you can convince the credit card companies to give you a break because you're a charity-i don't think they'd ever do that for something as small as EN World) so those will pretty much be fixed expenses.

Some company that does more traffic then we do however, could have lower %'s then we do. We don't do much in the way of on-line sales compared with the larger companies, but that can't be helped right now.

Regardless, the intent of everyone involved is to try and ensure that as much of the donated money as possible ends up in Morrus's hands. That was the point of the whole thing and we're going to do our best.

joe b.


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## Henry (Oct 28, 2003)

Yellow Sign said:
			
		

> I would really be sad to see a automatic deletion of posts and or limiting of avatars, signatures, and pictures.
> 
> My 2 cents.




Well, this is a personal observation, and not an official one, but with both this unprecedented fund-raising effort, and with Cyberstreet Walter's generous offer to upgrade our server at cost, I would hope all of the above could be avoided. 


_(All except deletion of extremely old posts, that is; unless someone pruned it recently, our server has posts dating back to early 2002 on it, and I'm not talking about the archive forum, either!!!!)_


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## jasper (Oct 28, 2003)

That is what I talking about do we need to keep OT stuff. Who cares on EN world who won the super bowl in 2003.


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## BSF (Oct 28, 2003)

Admittedly, a lot of this is _really_ up to Morrus and whomever he chooses to include in decisions.  But, I want to throw out ideas and see if we can help put together a plan that Morrus can use as a starting point.  The community feel here is great and it just grew immensely for me.  I would like to be the crotchety old DM that a few years from now is relating stories to a new batch of players.  

"Yeah, I remember back in '03 when we almost lost EN World.  Was scary, but all of us gamers got together and helped make sure our favorite online hangout was still there the next day.  So, you young'uns had better get in there and throw your donation in!"

Anyway, on to my point...

Would a bi-annual donation drive seem reasonable?  Not so often that it gets old and intrusive, but enough to plan a few times a year for.

And you know what?  I am not sure I like calling it a donation.  It is more like an investment.  I invest in my game books.  I expect to read through them and use them more than once.  EN World is like that.  It is an investment in my hobby.  So, it isn't a fund raiser, it is an investment drive.  

I believe we should set concrete goals.  We want to pay for x months of hosting.  We want to upgrade the server in x way.  We want to host the ENnies at Gen Con and we will use some of the funds for the awards.  That type of thing.  

I think we should keep the donation time fun, not a chore.  Maybe plan specific group events around the same time?  Something that reminds us why we are a community and give us a chance to 'meet' the new people.  

I think we should work to have a community 'Thank You' that everyone who contributes can have.   As I noted in an earlier post, I think a simple PDF loaded with gaming goodness would be great!  Most of us have NPC's, magic items, adventure locations and all sorts of idea seeds lying around.  If only a handful of us volunteered to flesh one or more of these out to contribute to the community gift, we would have a nice little resource.  Anyone that invests would be able to download the PDF.  It would then be our way, as a community, of saying 'Thank You' to the people investing in that community.  I have mentioned this twice and I would be happy to participate!  It would be my way of saying 'Thanks' to all the great people here and it might be enough to provide a little more incentive to somebody that might be sitting on the fence on whether they want to invest in the community. 

I think we should also encourage anyone that wants to offer giveaways to do so as well.  The above idea would be our way of making sure everyone gets something, even if they are already a Community Supporter.  The giveaways would be the way that various writers, artists and publishers could give back as well as drum up a little publicity and participate in the overall fun.  That being said, we should make the dates known well in advance.  Some of the publishers might want to adjust product release dates if it looks like it will coincide with an EN World investment drive.  I wouldn't really want any publisher to suffer in their first week of sales just because of the coincidence.

All that being said, we need some sort of organization applied to all of our ideas.  Maybe some of them sound good, but are difficult to implement.  Maybe some are just bad ideas in general.  As has been mentioned, a business plan would be a good idea.  If somebody with more experience can help out here, and everything looks good to Morrus, I would like to do whatever I can to help out the community.  After yesterday, it really became clear to me how much this place, and these people, mean to me.


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## Utrecht (Oct 28, 2003)

I am in full support of annual/semi annual pledge drives - I think that we as a community owe it to the site.

That all being said (and this is going to sound harsher than it is) , I beleive that the site owes us information on it as well - i.e. a full accounting of the finances.  

I am sure that Morrus is a great guy - and has never demonstrated anything but the highest of ethics so this is by no means casting stones at the man.  But, If I am going to donate to something, I like to know that my money is in effect going to support what I beleive it is......


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## Duncan Haldane (Oct 29, 2003)

You know, I visit enworld almost every day.  Yesterday I didn't, and I missed the whole furore.

Now, I am subscribed to a number of threads at any time, and I get emails from "morrus" about them having been updated.  Morrus, I think it would have been a good idea, if possible, to send a message about the situation to all registered users via their email addresses.

They myself and many others wouldn't've almost missed it.

Secondly, I would really like to see a count of community supporters, and new victims - eg, on the front page a box that say "Enworld currently has xxx community supports, xx joined in the last day".  That way it might give us an idea of how many there are, and how that is fluctuating.

Oh, and as for making messageboard payment compulsory - well, $10/yr may not seem like much to most Americans, but for a lot of people around the world it is a lot - and some of those people do read these boards.  A couple of years ago the RPGA stopped charging for membership, and since then they have tripled the number of members - mostly from poorer countries where people play from the SRD.

That's about it from me,

Duncan


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## BSF (Oct 29, 2003)

OK, reading through another thread, I realized I have used a term that is generally used in one sense, though others are applicable.  The term is:  invest.

Oftentimes, we hear invest used in reference to investing in a company.  Purchasing a share in the company so that you can receive financial benefit from it.  Usually, shareholders have some measure of control over how the company is then run.  

When I say that I feel like this is an investment, this is *not* what I mean.  

What I mean is that I spend a fair amount of time here, I suck up my share of bandwidth.  And I have been doing that on the generosity of others.  On one level, I have always been conscious of that.  And it is easy to keep saying, “I’ll be a Community Supporter next month.”  It took the unfortunate occurrence of getting it right down to the line before the site is shut down for me to get off my butt and do it.  

It is surprising how little time it took me to make that decision.  I saw Morrus’ announcement, noticed that it has single digit views, opened it up, did some work, read it and just sat there for a few seconds thinking “But, I was going to become a supporter, what happened?”  It took me a few moments to realize that I cared enough to stop sitting on the bench.  By the time I returned to the main thread, there was already a thread posted asking how we could help.  The rest just keeps getting better.  But, back to my point.

I expect that Morrus will have enough cash flow for the site to sleep easy.  I expect that he will be able to treat this as a hobby and have fun. I do not expect him to tell us everything that he is going to do with the money.  

When I say I want to invest in EN World, I am _trying_ to say that I want to do whatever I can to help avoid getting to this point again in the future.  I want to help out.  I would like to offer ideas so that other people can take them apart and try to find any value in them.  I use these boards a lot and I feel like I can give back to the community a little more than I do already.  _Invest_ is probably not the correct word to use.  Especially since it is emotionally charged in economic terms.  For my word choice, I apologize for any misunderstanding.  But, for my intent, I really do want to know if there is any way that I can help in the future.  

Thanks for hearing me out!


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## Krug (Oct 29, 2003)

No way should messageboard payment be compulsory. That'll deter new members from joining. 

As we've seen, voluntary payment is more than sufficient to keep the site running. 

I suggest Morrus sit down with some advisors and work out a business plan, as others have said. If he wants to run this site FT, fine by me, he can declare his intentions. Lotsa other sites have FT staff (DVDTalk.com, flashkit.com) operating it. It's workable and doable.


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## BSF (Oct 29, 2003)

This should probably be rehomed to the META forum.  Can somebody please relocate it at your convenience?  

Thanks.


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## Flyspeck23 (Oct 29, 2003)

jasper said:
			
		

> That is what I talking about do we need to keep OT stuff. Who cares on EN world who won the super bowl in 2003.



Not you, obviously 
I'd miss the OT stuff. Not the super bowl, mind you.


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## The Sigil (Oct 29, 2003)

FWIW, I think there are three schools of thought as to "when I send money to ENWorld, what kind of transaction is it?"

1.) There are those who think it is a gift.  A gift ought to be freely given by the giver with no "strings attached" - else it is not truly a gift, but rather an investment/contract.  When I get $X for my birthday from my parents, they don't make me hand them an accounting ledger to tell them where that money goes.

2.)  There are those who think it is a "payment for services rendered/to be rendered" - i.e., "ENWorld provides me news/forums/etc. and I pay them for that service."  Again, you have no right to demand an accounting of where the money goes - no more than you demand to see your dentist's or plumber's financial statements to see exactly what he did with the check you sent him.

3.)  There are those who think it is an "investment/contract" - i.e., "I am giving money with strings attached - you must use it as I see fit or at the least account to me what you have done with it."

To be honest, I think the only reason people are seeing it as #3 is the huge AGGREGATE amount of donations received, and not the comparatively minor contribution they personally made.  To be honest, it's kind of offensive to me.  Suppose Morrus had only needed $20 and you tossed that into the pot... would you demand to know exactly where that $20 went?  No... because it's "just $20." 

I know, I know... $16K is a LOT more than $20 - but... the only difference here is a difference in scale of donators, not so much the size of the individual donation... you still tossed only your $20 or $35 or $50 or whatever into the pot... but since a lot of people also did that, the pot looks a lot fuller.

As far as I'm concerned, Morrus went out and asked for donations.  He didn't offer you a business relationship or an investment opportunity.  Some of us gave "gifts."  Some of us decided we should "pay for services rendered."  Some few of us got the mistaken impression that this was an investment opportunity - a time to "buy shares" of ENWorld.

Basically, let's put this into a hypothetical here...

Suppose ENWorld had raised $2000 - just enough to cover back hosting fees and hosting for one more month.  IOW, you knew he needed $2000 and he raised $2000.  Be honest with me... would you be beating down his door looking for accounting statements?  I'll bet the answer is "no."  The only reason you're looking for accounting statements is because you see, "wow, Morrus has an extra $14,000 to play with."  

If it helps you sleep/feel heroic, just assume that that your contribution is in that first $2,000 and you have NOTHING to do with that extra $14,000.  While I will be the first to say that I'm sure there's room for improvement in the financial management at ENWorld (show me a business/family/person/whatever that CAN'T be improved in that aspect), I don't think "Quarterly Reports" are the answer.  

I think we ought to look at this as a business of which we are CUSTOMERS, not SHAREHOLDERS and the "price" that we are charged is, "whatever you feel is appropriate for services rendered."  ENWorld provides news, reviews, entertainment, community, story hours, whatever.  THAT is what you get out of your money.

I think the reason Morrus was able to raise so much so quickly is that he has demonstrated that, for the most part, he is trying to do the right thing and has the best interest of the site in mind.  I don't demand perfection, merely that he's trying his best.  If the latest blob of money is mismanaged or otherwise misused, eventually that trust/goodwill will evaporate and ENWorld will not be able to have another drive of this magnitude.  Morrus knows this and I doubt he'll fritter the money away.  After all, if we have another episode like this in 3 months, the reaction will not be "Save ENWORLD!" but rather, "what the h--- did you do with all that money, dude?  If you couldn't manage that, why should we give you more?"

I'm rambling, but my point is:

I think a lot of people are only looking at the magnitude of money raised when they say they want more accountability, and that magnitude is the ONLY reason we're hearing the griping - and that annoys me because people are getting an over-inflated sense of self.  {Sarcasm} After all, *your* contribution was not the one that put ENWorld into the black.  *Mine* was.  {/sarcasm} It was *EVERYBODY* and *NOBODY* that did it... everybody in that they all helped a little, nobody in that no one contributor could have done it alone (though I suspect one could have come close).

I'm gonna consider my payment to ENWorld a very late payment for services rendered and/or gift.  Since I never got a piece of stock back, I don't consider it "buying a share" - and I hope you don't either.

--The Sigil


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## BSF (Oct 29, 2003)

The Sigil said:
			
		

> I'm gonna consider my payment to ENWorld a very late payment for services rendered and/or gift.  Since I never got a piece of stock back, I don't consider it "buying a share" - and I hope you don't either.
> 
> --The Sigil




I consider mine as payment for past services rendered.  I've been lagging in getting a community supporte account.  

I don't consider myself as buying into anything.  But, if there is a way that I can help keep the wheels running smoothly, I want to help out.  I contribute a few posts to this community, but I don't think I put in nearly as much as I get out.  And that's fine.  By the nature of a community, the whole is greater than the sum of it's parts.  Rather, it should be.  I'm not sure Morrus is getting back as much enjoyment as he puts in effort.  That is the issue that I think needs correcting.  

From all indications, more than 400 people contributed to the last minute fund.  If we could get that amount of response twice a year at $10 a person average, we would cover hosting fees. There would also be a bit extra for whatever else.  

To me, that seems attainable.  But, there is the issue of actually doing it.  Or doing something to keep Community Supporter fees rolling in.  $35 each for 150 people a *year* would cover hosting fees with a little left over.  It makes me embarassed that I didn't contribute sooner.  How many other combinations can we come up with that would cover hosting fees?  Of course, I am sure all of us would like to have a faster system hosting the site.  Periodic upgrades to keep things running smoothly aren't too expensive, but they also don't materialize out of nowhere.  

And that's what I am talking about.  How many ways can we think of that will cover these costs and make us a self-supporting community?  While my contribution is for past services rendered, and possibly for future services, I am much more interested in how I can help prevent this happening again further down the road.  I don't want to second guess Morrus, but I do want to offer ideas and possibly some of my time.


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## BSF (Oct 30, 2003)

It has been brought up in the Ceramic DM thread - Doing a PDF of the wonderful stories in Ceramic DM as part of a Fund Raiser effort.  

Just adding it here since we have other ideas listed.


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## Henry (Oct 30, 2003)

Meta-Meta-BOP-Bop! (Moved to Meta.)


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## BSF (Oct 30, 2003)

Henry said:
			
		

> Meta-Meta-BOP-Bop! (Moved to Meta.)



Thanks!  I was starting to think nobody was reading my posts.


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