# New Errata/Updates at Wotc



## Markn (Nov 17, 2009)

A new, lengthy document exists at WotC highlighitng all the NEW updates and incorporating all the old updates as well.

Of note, is a major update to double weapons.

Oh, and Reckless has been fixed.


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## vic20 (Nov 18, 2009)

Markn said:


> A new, lengthy document exists at WotC highlighitng all the NEW updates and incorporating all the old updates as well.
> 
> Of note, is a major update to double weapons.
> 
> Oh, and Reckless has been fixed.




I'd like to think this would be easily found on the wizards web site, but I have a hard time finding anything up there...

edit: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/updates


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## im_robertb (Nov 18, 2009)

No fix for Enhanced Resistive Formula (EPG 87)


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## Markn (Nov 18, 2009)

I'm surprised Consecrated Ground hasn't seen updated wording...


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## Elric (Nov 18, 2009)

Glad WotC got around to this.

The Quicksilver Stance errata is backwards.  It makes no sense to say "you can shift your speed (or 1/2 your speed if you aren't wearing heavy armor)."  This should be the other way around.


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## CAFRedblade (Nov 18, 2009)

Vic20 
on the main DnD page under the Quick Links is a Rules Update link
which takes you to the DnD updates/errata.
Just in case you missed it.


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## Runestar (Nov 18, 2009)

I like how they at least included a sentence explaining the rationale behind the errata. 

Never thought they would actually get around to divine miracle...


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## FireLance (Nov 18, 2009)

The update changes a lot of things that people have been complaining and/or asking about, specifically:

*Powers, Class Abilities and Feats*

Avenger

*Armor of Faith:* Now only functions when the avenger is in cloth armor or no armor and not using a shield.

*Hero of Faith:* Now lasts until you hit the target or it drops below 0 hit points.

Barbarian

*Hurricane of Blades:* Grants three extra attacks instead of five extra arracks.

*Storm of Blades:* Specifies a maximum of three attacks instead of allowing the barbarian to continue attacking until he misses.

Swordmage

*Bounding Lightning:* [W] replaced with 1d8 as it is an implement power.

*Corrosive Ruin:* [W] replaced with 1d8 as it is an implement power.

*Electrified Lash:* [W] replaced with 1d8 as it is an implement power.

*Lingering Lightning:* [W] replaced with 1d8 as it is an implement power.

*Unicorn's Touch:* Is now a daily power instead of an encounter power.

Others

*Archlich's Phylactery:* Now triggers when you die instead of when you drop to 0 hit points or fewer.

*Hospitaler's Blessing:* Now triggers when the enemy makes an attack an ally that does not include the paladin as a target.

*Spitting Cobra Stance:* Attack is now an immediate reaction instead of an opportunity action.

*Wanderer's Action:* Using an action point now grants an extra move action before or after the action point to remove the possibility of infinite movement.

*Magic Items*

Extra Damage

*Bloodclaw Weapon:* Extra damage is now an encounter power.

*Reckless Weapon:* Extra damage is now an encounter power.

Saving Throw Penalty

*Orb of Ultimate Imposition:* You must attack with the orb (you can't just "wield" it) to get the higher saving throw penalty.

*Phrenic Crown:* Imposes a saving throw penalty on the first saving throw only.

Warlock Implements

*Rod of Reaving:* Now only deals automatic damage to nonminion targets.

*Quickcurse Rod:* Now specifies "your" Warlock's Curse, so you must have a Warlock's Curse in the first place to be able to use the rod to place a Warlock's Curse on a target as a free action.

Others

*Cloak of Distortion:* Now provides an item bonus to defenses (instead of an attack roll penalty) against ranged attack rolls equal to the cloak's enhancement bonus (instead of a flat -5).

*Double weapons:* Got completely overhauled. Double axes are no longer defensive. Double swords now are now Light Blades and off-hand weapons on both ends, deal less damage, and cannot be treated as a two-handed weapon.

*Monsters*

*Needlefang Drake Swarm:* Damage got reduced.


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## Stalker0 (Nov 18, 2009)

So the new errata is out...lets debate!!


First of all, I want to say I am very pleased with WOTC's presentation of the errata. I like how they give you the change and the actual product how it looks with the change. That really helps to clarify some of the more complex changes.

Second, I'm so glad they are putting in a section for old updates in there now. Before I could never tell what was new and what was old.


From content, generally it was a nerfest for the most part, and I agree with most of the changes. I'll review some of the bigger ones.

Change to Bloodclaw: Some will call this an overnerf, and I can understand the reaction. However, lets remember that Bloodclaw by item level is one of the weakest magical enhancements you can get. At least the ability works when you hit, so its pretty much an automatically 3x enhancement bonus damage once per fight.

Reckless Weapon: On the other hand, I think this was an overreaction. Its higher level than bloodclaw, does less damage, and you have activate the power before you hit. Its just not worth the cost to me.

Save Stacking Nerfs: Two of the big items got nerfed, the Earthroot Staff and the Phrenic Crown. As a DM of a player who uses these items heavily, I can say they needed a good nerf. Saving throw penalties shouldn't scale period, frankly I think the phrenic crown is still too good, it should be left at -1 and be done with it.

Avenger Armor Nerf: This one is probably going to have the biggest impact for a lot of people, I can't think of a single avenger build I would do that doesn't have leather armor. Is the nerf too strong? I think its really a question of were avengers too good in the AC department? I have one in my game that has the same AC are our fighter in plate, but he also doesn't have as many hitpoints so it hasn't come up.


Divine Miracle: They finally eliminated the infinite elven accuracy abuses and the like, a good change in general (still an amazing ability).

Triumphant Attack: I think this one just became one of the strongest feats in the game. Before I already had it on nearly every epic build, now its a given. Heck with a good crit monkey (avengers, daggermasters) it may now be a stronger feat than epic expertise.

Rod of Reaving: To me the minion abuse was more about the rod of corruption than this rod. I would have left this one alone and nerfed the corruption rod.

Needlefang Nerf: About damn time! This little guy may hold the title for the most overpowered monster in the game. Sure Orcus can give epic guys some fun, but these guys could mow through equal level parties like moses through the red sea!

Double Weapons: The D weapons definately needed some nerfing, though at first glance I'm not exactly sure what has changed. Also I think there's an error in the errata, they mention the small property but I don't see that anywhere.

Cloak of Distortion: This one got a big nerf, and it probably deserved it. I don't know if the lower level versions of the cloak are worth it anymore, but the higher level versions are still good.

Ritualist's Ring: Anything that lets me make magic items at a 2 for 1 special is broken period. This is a good nerf.

Swordmage Warding: I'm really glad to see they took out the clause about losing your warding when you went unconscious and came back up. That was a serious disadvantage.

Quicksilver Stance: I figured this one would get nerfed, though it got a bump in the mobility department so that's something.

Unfailing Resources: Dreadnought is probably one of the best Paragon Paths in the game (especially if you encounter a lot of status effects). The ability is nerfed slightly, its still an amazing class feature, but its lost a little bit of the craziness.


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## Markn (Nov 18, 2009)

Quickcurse Rod question - Before the errata you could get an extra curse off - your minor action curse plus the rods power.  Can you still do that or does the rods power now just let you curse for free instead of a minor?  I'm thinking no at this point.


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## lukelightning (Nov 18, 2009)

Hooray, I no longer have to forbid the cloak of distortion!


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## Kzach (Nov 18, 2009)

FireLance said:


> Armor of Faith: Now only functions when the avenger is in cloth armor or no armor and not using a shield.




Who was complaining about this? And where do they live?


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## Destil (Nov 18, 2009)

Someone please explain to me why we still have 'Defensive' on double weapons? This new design I actually kind of dig, it's how they should have worked in the first place.

But why does a double weapon guy get the same AC as sword and board with two feats?

EDIT: I *think* I get it now, looking closer. You don't so as much damage anymore with them, the new double sword is like fighting with two short-swords, and you get an extra +1 AC for the feat. Not the direction I'd have preferred things to go, but at least makes some sense. Here's hoping for a 1d8 +2 Defensive one-hander at some point...

But why does the urgosh get it? In the hands of a fighter who gets a LOT of one-off attacks (through mark and AoO) that thing is still crazy...

Also, why is the off-hand part of the double scimitar an axe?


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## Saagael (Nov 18, 2009)

Elric said:


> Glad WotC got around to this.
> 
> The Quicksilver Stance errata is backwards.  It makes no sense to say "you can shift your speed (or 1/2 your speed if you aren't wearing heavy armor)."  This should be the other way around.




A dev (or a representative for a dev) left a comment on the Wizards forums saying that it is backwards and they'll get around to fixing it.


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## Klaus (Nov 18, 2009)

Destil said:


> Someone please explain to me why we still have 'Defensive' on double weapons? This new design I actually kind of dig, it's how they should have worked in the first place.
> 
> But why does a double weapon guy get the same AC as sword and board with two feats?
> 
> ...



A sword-n-boarder wields a heavy shield for +2 AC. A double-weapon-wielder gets, at most, a +1. And this is from a weapon that functions as two he might have wielded anyway. For instance, there's no point in wielding a double sword now if you can wield two short swords, except for the defensive quality.


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## Hammerhead (Nov 18, 2009)

The only change that really sucks is the Avenger armor nerf. Were Avengers too good? I mean, considering their crappy damage, high defenses were basically the only thing they had. Now that's gone too.


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## FireLance (Nov 18, 2009)

Markn said:


> Quickcurse Rod question - Before the errata you could get an extra curse off - your minor action curse plus the rods power.  Can you still do that or does the rods power now just let you curse for free instead of a minor?  I'm thinking no at this point.



I think it can still be argued that the specific ability of the _quickcurse rod_ trumps the general restriction that you can use the Warlock's Curse power once per turn. Phrasing along the lines of: "You may use your Warlock's Curse as a free action and you may place it on any target in sight." would have made it obvious that the once per round restriction is still in force, but the simpler and more ambiguous wording used in the errata doesn't make it so clear. Since it's an encounter ability, even the more generous interpretation is unlikely to have much of an impact most of the time.


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## Majoru Oakheart (Nov 18, 2009)

Hammerhead said:


> The only change that really sucks is the Avenger armor nerf. Were Avengers too good? I mean, considering their crappy damage, high defenses were basically the only thing they had. Now that's gone too.




I disagree that they had particularly crappy damage.  Keep in mind that the difference between Avenger damage and most striker damage is between 3 and 9.  Not a huge difference.  It used to seem like a big deal when a lot of other classes were combining Bloodclaw and multiple attack powers in order to increase that dramatically.  With those things changed...I think you'll find the difference is very small.

The avenger already has high end striker AC, with the addition of leather it put them into high end defender ACs.  That needed to be fixed.


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## Markn (Nov 18, 2009)

FireLance said:


> I think it can still be argued that the specific ability of the _quickcurse rod_ trumps the general restriction that you can use the Warlock's Curse power once per turn. Phrasing along the lines of: "You may use your Warlock's Curse as a free action and you may place it on any target in sight." would have made it obvious that the once per round restriction is still in force, but the simpler and more ambiguous wording used in the errata doesn't make it so clear. Since it's an encounter ability, even the more generous interpretation is unlikely to have much of an impact most of the time.




The blurb for the change seems to indicate they just want to keep the Invoker from using it, so it would seem that you could still do an extra curse but you are right, the wording is very ambiguous.  

For my character, I really rely on it.  I have the Master of the Starry Sky PP and two fold curse (I think thats what its called).  So, first round, I curse the two closest, then one other person for free with the rod.  Second round, move so that I can curse 2 more and then the 3rd round, I use Minor gift of foresight to produce an extra +10 bonus to hit by stripping the curses.  The rod is additionally important because now I can target the far guy instead of the closest guys letting me get to creatures that we normally have to wait to attack.

Granted without the rod, it could still be +8 but its not so much a corner case with this build.  

Edit - Basically, the rod makes me more versatile depending on the tactics needed for the fight.


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## Kzach (Nov 18, 2009)

Majoru Oakheart said:


> The avenger already has high end striker AC, with the addition of leather it put them into high end defender ACs.  That needed to be fixed.




Their secondary role is either defender or controller so no, it really didn't need 'fixing'.


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## Sabathius42 (Nov 18, 2009)

My dwarven battlerager/dreadnaught has not had a good year.

DS


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## ZzarkLinux (Nov 18, 2009)

They fixed the Oath of Emnity Multiclass power.

All and all I'm very impressed with the updates, as now I'm less embarassed to recommend these changes to my group...


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## Destil (Nov 18, 2009)

Klaus said:


> A sword-n-boarder wields a heavy shield for +2 AC. A double-weapon-wielder gets, at most, a +1. And this is from a weapon that functions as two he might have wielded anyway. For instance, there's no point in wielding a double sword now if you can wield two short swords, except for the defensive quality.




Two-weapon fighting and Two-weapon defense were the feats I was talking about (so three, but almost every weapon wielder has to justify not taking a Superior Weapon feat). And unlike a sword-and-board build there's no armor check penalty. This irks me.

I actually think the double sword and scimitar are good now. But the axe and urgosh are too good, because their damage is on par with (and above, for the urgosh) a superior one-hander. They shouldn't be defensive.

EDIT: Missed that the axe wasn't defensive. Okay, I concede. The Urgosh still bothers me (for some tempest fighter builds the damage you can deal with that thing is crazy), but now it's just a small issue with one weapon, rather than the whole list.

Also: The greatsword needs to be defensive. That'll fix 'em.


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## Majoru Oakheart (Nov 18, 2009)

Kzach said:


> Their secondary role is either defender or controller so no, it really didn't need 'fixing'.




I know that is their secondary role.  But it isn't their primary.  I've been playing an Avenger from level 1 to 9 now who never took Leather Armor, and he's able to stand toe to toe with most enemies no problem.  He often risks himself by provoking OAs and survives.

He regularly does good damage to the enemies.  With the increased chance of hitting, I'm fairly certain it's close to the other strikers in the group.  And he often takes one enemy out of the battle in a sort of defendery way.


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## Markn (Nov 18, 2009)

Sabathius42 said:


> My dwarven battlerager/dreadnaught has not had a good year.
> 
> DS




My dwarven battlerager/dreadnaught had a good year, until the changes.

Fixed it for you.


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## Ryujin (Nov 18, 2009)

Markn said:


> The blurb for the change seems to indicate they just want to keep the Invoker from using it, so it would seem that you could still do an extra curse but you are right, the wording is very ambiguous.
> 
> For my character, I really rely on it.  I have the Master of the Starry Sky PP and two fold curse (I think thats what its called).  So, first round, I curse the two closest, then one other person for free with the rod.  Second round, move so that I can curse 2 more and then the 3rd round, I use Minor gift of foresight to produce an extra +10 bonus to hit by stripping the curses.  The rod is additionally important because now I can target the far guy instead of the closest guys letting me get to creatures that we normally have to wait to attack.
> 
> ...




It seems to be a pretty standard schtick. I do much the same with my Fey/Darklock. Free curse somewhere in the rear of the opponents, Twofold Curse the two nearest, then start wondering when I should Cursebite/Cursegrind the lot of them.


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## Markn (Nov 18, 2009)

Ryujin said:


> It seems to be a pretty standard schtick. I do much the same with my Fey/Darklock. Free curse somewhere in the rear of the opponents, Twofold Curse the two nearest, then start wondering when I should Cursebite/Cursegrind the lot of them.




Yeah, I'm actually a starlock/darklock.

And doesn't cursebite/cursegrind rock?  Oh yeah baby!


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## sfedi (Nov 18, 2009)

I'm so happy at Wizards right now...


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## FireLance (Nov 18, 2009)

sfedi said:


> I'm so happy at Wizards right now...



I'm fairly sure that's going to be only temporary.  

I wonder what's still going to draw ire or draw ire next? Offhand:
_Certain justice_ is still on the strong side, IMO (and this is from someone who likes paladins).

Complaints about _iron armbands of power_/_bracers of archery_ are still not addressed.

_Vorpal doom_: Reliable power with an effect.

Weapon/Implement Expertise.​Think this is worth a fork?


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## Llamas Notsheep (Nov 18, 2009)

Don't forget avengers' lackluster dailies.  They're typically 1-3[W] behind most other classes.  Yeah, you can catch up on striking through some creative (i.e. cheesy) multiclassing or going half-elf.  But by the same token, any other class can also get cheesy.  If you stay more or less pure avenger, you're going to be behind other classes in damage output for at-wills, with a constantly increasing gap as you work your way up through the non-at-wills.

Now, avengers are still slightly subpar in the damage department, and have lost a significant portion of the durability that used to offset that through crossover into a defendery role.

Compare the avenger to the barbarian, as an example.  The avenger has lower AC, lower damage output, lower hp and surges, similarly good mobility, and better accuracy.

it's not the end of the world, but I do think it was an unnecessary change.  If the intent was to leave the defender-level defenses for defenders, you'd think they would have offset it with striker-level damage for the striker.  /shrug

Honestly, it's one fairly minor complaint in what is a really, really fantastic update.  They fixed a whole heckuva lot of broken stuff.


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## Markn (Nov 18, 2009)

Also in need of a re-word/keyword change/attack type change:

Consecrated Ground....anyone....anyone....Beuhler...


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## Prestidigitalis (Nov 18, 2009)

Too bad they didn't errata Commander's Strike -- or did they already do that one?  I lose track.

I also would have liked a clarification on whether Storm Pillar inflicts damage for each square entered or just for one.  

Big win: my Swordmage's life expectancy just went up.


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## Stalker0 (Nov 18, 2009)

Llamas Notsheep said:


> Don't forget avengers' lackluster dailies.




Having seen an avenger in action, I don't see a single thing wrong with them. They don't just hit well, they crit a lot, and that is a goodly amount of damage. The avenger in our group does well over a 100 damage when he crits, and its often.

Also, almost every avenger daily has an effect...many of which last the entire encounter. That's beautiful.


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## Destil (Nov 18, 2009)

The only time Avengers have any real issues is at epic when they can't get a 19-20 crit range. One little feat will help them out a lot, here's hoping that it's in Divine Power 2.

Though I do think the AC hit was unwarranted. If anything they could have left leather, hide was expensive for feats/stats at low levels...

Or make Improved Armor of Faith +2/+3/+4. One fewer feat, one point lower AC. Net win all-around.

Though hide armor expertise better be taken down a notch in the next update (and Whirling Barbs most likely don't need Barbarian Agility).


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## Mengu (Nov 18, 2009)

This is like a new book release for me. A lot of things I pretended not to exist suddenly came into existence. Reckless Weapons and Rods of Reaving became real treasure items I can use. I can introduce double weapons in my game. Spitting Cobra Stance just became available. Small barbarians are now possible without having to house rule anything. Strength of Valor suddenly works.

While this update is massive, it affects a total of 0 PC's in our two games. So Nothing we thought was "good but not broken" got an axe. Very happy about that.

I'm sure there will be some controversy about the Avenger losing AC, but for my avenger, I never picked up leather armor, thought it would be an unnecessary sink for a defensive feat when I'm a striker. I also had a bit of the attitude that I'm a dwarf so I can take the hits, and justified it that way. But I'm very glad it got removed. I especially did not understand people trying for Hide Armor, and sinking a bunch of stats and feats into it, ignoring that they should be strikers. Spending 3 heroic level slots to defense for a striker is ludicrous to me (unless you have some unusual party dynamics). I think this change will help the Avengers along in the right direction.


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## Destil (Nov 18, 2009)

Prestidigitalis said:


> Big win: my Swordmage's life expectancy just went up.




I just got an IM of "I demand justice!" from the full-blade wielding stormsoul swordmage in my game. 3 of the 4 powers that were converted from X[W] to 1d8 damage were thunder/lightning...

"Wow, and I was getting Lingering Lightning next level."


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## Elric (Nov 18, 2009)

Destil said:


> The only time Avengers have any real issues is at epic when they can't get a 19-20 crit range. One little feat will help them out a lot, here's hoping that it's in Divine Power 2.
> 
> Though I do think the AC hit was unwarranted. If anything they could have left leather, hide was expensive for feats/stats at low levels...
> 
> Or make Improved Armor of Faith +2/+3/+4. One fewer feat, one point lower AC. Net win all-around.




I think Improved Armor of Faith was the problem with Avenger AC in the first place.  The feat was changed to only work in cloth armor or no armor, and that solves Avenger AC problems without needing to change the class feature itself (which WotC also did).

Things that might get hit next time not yet mentioned:
Orb of Imposition (other save penalties were hit; prediction that it works on one save after it's rolled), Seal of Binding (my prediction: add "You can sustain this power no more than three times") (PH)

Draconic Spellcaster, Fey Charmer, Gnome Phantasmist feats (AP, prediction: change so only the damage bonus scales)


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## im_robertb (Nov 18, 2009)

Destil said:


> I just got an IM of "I demand justice!" from the full-blade wielding stormsoul swordmage in my game. 3 of the 4 powers that were converted from X[W] to 1d8 damage were thunder/lightning...
> 
> "Wow, and I was getting Lingering Lightning next level."




Give him free retrains then tell him to deal. </Unhappy DM>


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## Diirk (Nov 18, 2009)

The new double weapons don't completely work properly. They stuck the defensive property on the main hand end for some reason, but the definition of defensive requires that it be in the offhand to function. So no AC bonus for anyone using a double weapon, as written.


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## Destil (Nov 18, 2009)

im_robertb said:


> Give him free retrains then tell him to deal. </Unhappy DM>




Actually, I'm leaving the powers as is and adding "Requirement: You must use a light or heavy blade as an implement for this power." I don't see a need to gimp his damage to that of a longsword when he takes the AC hit and spent the feat for the fullblade.


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## mneme (Nov 18, 2009)

The Avenger change is fine.  Prior to 11/17, Avengers were more or less required to take Leather at some point for CO (despite all Avenger Armors being cloth), as it was Too Good Not to Take.  Now they aren't.

And since Avengers have very good AC (hide-equiv with an AC stat as secondary, and a +1/2/3 AC feat) and fighter-level HP ignoring con, there's nothing to worry about here; Avengers were stupidly sturdy strikers prior to the fix, and are now very sturdy strikers -- with one more feat to throw around rather than having YA "required" feat choice.


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## babinro (Nov 18, 2009)

Great all around changes by the looks of things. 

I'm surprised there was no debuff on Orb of Imposition down to one round.  Or alternatively errata on the other wizard options to lengthen their durations.   It still comes off as hands down the best choice for specialization.


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## Ryujin (Nov 18, 2009)

Sabathius42 said:


> My dwarven battlerager/dreadnaught has not had a good year.
> 
> DS




Our Goliath Battlerager/Dreadnought isn't exactly happy right now either. He's considering a move to stun-lock Orbizard in protest.



Markn said:


> Yeah, I'm actually a starlock/darklock.
> 
> And doesn't cursebite/cursegrind rock?  Oh yeah baby!




My next move is to get a Rakshasha Hand familiar, so that I can get draw the Rod of Corruption as a free action after using the Quickcurse Rod. Darkspiral Aura makes for a chancy target, while Cursebite and Cursegrind make a good Action Point combo, especially when combined with Gravecaller Action (from Grave Caller PP; +4 to all attacks until the end of next turn), and Dirge of Inescapable Doom (also from Grave Caller; roll twice for attacks on one "Death Marked" creature per encounter). The combination can make a big mess, really fast. I've gone from the lame duck of the party to a heavy hitter in a couple of levels after hitting paragon.


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## Herschel (Nov 18, 2009)

Destil said:


> I just got an IM of "I demand justice!" from the full-blade wielding stormsoul swordmage in my game. 3 of the 4 powers that were converted from X[W] to 1d8 damage were thunder/lightning...
> 
> "Wow, and I was getting Lingering Lightning next level."





LoL, just say "Either switch to the Longsword and enjoy the +2 AC bump and swap the Fullblade feat for something also useful or just choose actual melee attack powers and we'll call it good".


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## lukelightning (Nov 18, 2009)

Hooray, they fixed the "Hero of Faith" cheese. I was sure they were going to fix it eventually anyways by making it a "once per day" thing that lasted all encounter (or 'til the target drops).

It's still a really good feat, though; it's great for setting up your really big smackdown.  And now you don't need to worry so much about avengers murdering you in your sleep for stealing their schtick.


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## CapnZapp (Nov 18, 2009)

Excellent news!


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## cmbarona (Nov 18, 2009)

Wait... so does Triumphant Attack stack with multiple crits?

(Assuming the creature in question survives both of them to attack again...)


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## Markn (Nov 18, 2009)

Ryujin said:


> My next move is to get a Rakshasha Hand familiar, so that I can get draw the Rod of Corruption as a free action after using the Quickcurse Rod. Darkspiral Aura makes for a chancy target, while Cursebite and Cursegrind make a good Action Point combo, especially when combined with Gravecaller Action (from Grave Caller PP; +4 to all attacks until the end of next turn), and Dirge of Inescapable Doom (also from Grave Caller; roll twice for attacks on one "Death Marked" creature per encounter). The combination can make a big mess, really fast. I've gone from the lame duck of the party to a heavy hitter in a couple of levels after hitting paragon.




Nice!  I've noticed that warlocks in general take time to come into their own.  About PP level, a well designed warlock can certainly hold his own in combat and be on par (sometimes above and sometimes a bit below par) with other strikers.

The thing I like the most about the warlock though, is that you could play 5 different warlocks and not one of them would feel the same.  Each pact is so flavorful that they almost feel like different classes.


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## abyssaldeath (Nov 18, 2009)

cmbarona said:


> Wait... so does Triumphant Attack stack with multiple crits?
> 
> (Assuming the creature in question survives both of them to attack again...)



As long as the crits come from different powers, yes.


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## Starfox (Nov 18, 2009)

Saagael said:


> A dev (or a representative for a dev) left a comment on the Wizards forums saying that it is backwards and they'll get around to fixing it.




I wondered f they were "enforcing role".


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## ExploderWizard (Nov 18, 2009)

Anyone know how long this patch was on the PTR before it went live?


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## Obryn (Nov 18, 2009)

I'll note that I love the changes, and feel vindicated in my "banned" list. 

It actually affected 3 PCs in my game, but naturally the Avenger was hardest-hit.  He's taking it well, though!

I like to incorporate errata ASAP, so I let my party's characters swap stuff out freely once it hits.  The Avenger gets to replace his leather armor feat, and his armor is magically transforming into cloth. 

-O


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## jester_gl (Nov 18, 2009)

What is the stout property on double weapon? Was it supposed to be small, as there are no small double weapon? Or is it something only the users of the updated character builder will be able to know before PHB3 gets out?

They also fixed the Behir.  He still chew a lot, but at least he can continue to act now.


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## Dragonbait (Nov 18, 2009)

ooohhhh my Friday group is going to be feeling this one.

Bwahahahahaha!


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## Mengu (Nov 18, 2009)

jester_gl said:


> What is the stout property on double weapon? Was it supposed to be small, as there are no small double weapon? Or is it something only the users of the updated character builder will be able to know before PHB3 gets out?




First page of the AV update (pg 26).

Stout: A weapon that has the stout property can be treated as a two-handed weapon.


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## abyssaldeath (Nov 18, 2009)

jester_gl said:


> What is the stout property on double weapon? Was it supposed to be small, as there are no small double weapon? Or is it something only the users of the updated character builder will be able to know before PHB3 gets out?
> 
> They also fixed the Behir.  He still chew a lot, but at least he can continue to act now.



Stout lets you benefit from feats/features and powers that are specifically for two-handed weapons. Like Power Attack. You only get the +3/+6/+9 if you are wielding a two-handed weapon. If you use any Double Weapon that doesn't have the Stout property you will only get the +2/+4/+6 bonus.


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## Ryujin (Nov 18, 2009)

Markn said:


> Nice!  I've noticed that warlocks in general take time to come into their own.  About PP level, a well designed warlock can certainly hold his own in combat and be on par (sometimes above and sometimes a bit below par) with other strikers.
> 
> The thing I like the most about the warlock though, is that you could play 5 different warlocks and not one of them would feel the same.  Each pact is so flavorful that they almost feel like different classes.




These rules updates make me feel a little better about my character which I built for role play, rather than power gaming. At least three separate things that are used by our Battlerager, who commonly does 50% more damage per attack than my Warlock, have been nerfed by the errata. That gets damage more in line between a Defender/Striker and a Striker/Controller, the way I figure that it should be.

My 2d8 + 2d6 + 11 sword strike isn't all that anaemic anymore 

You're right that you could easily have 5 different people make up a Warlock and none would be the same. OTOH we have both come to the same conclusion about going Dual Pact Darklock, because they seem to be the damage powerhouse of the CHAlocks. Some tricks are fairly universal.

I'm going to skin my Rakshasha Hand as an ugly little spritely guy named Robin Goodfellow (aka "Puck") who sits on my shoulder and whispers Arcane secrets in my ear, when he isn't doing the heavy lifting of unlatching doors and pulling out equipment for me.


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## Eldorian (Nov 18, 2009)

abyssaldeath said:


> Stout lets you benefit from feats/features and powers that are specifically for two-handed weapons. Like Power Attack. You only get the +3/+6/+9 if you are wielding a two-handed weapon. If you use any Double Weapon that doesn't have the Stout property you will only get the +2/+4/+6 bonus.




Stout makes whirling barbarians not suck.  That's what it really does.  Anything else is candy.  Barbarians are supposed to charge things!


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## abyssaldeath (Nov 18, 2009)

Eldorian said:


> Stout makes whirling barbarians not suck.  That's what it really does.  Anything else is candy.  Barbarians are supposed to charge things!



If you are referring to Howling Strike then Stout doesn't help there. Howling Strike has been changed to only require that you wield a melee weapon in two hands.


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## eamon (Nov 18, 2009)

So far, so good: these changes look _excellent_ mostly.

Next up, Bracers of Archery + Iron Armbands?  Die?  Please?  (I play melee weapon-wielders as often and not, and those things are the damnest most boring thing EVAR - but overshadow pretty much everything else, all the time.)

One thing I'm not too happy with is the fact that there's quite a few updates now, and no easy way to find those that apply to your character - unless you get the character builder and the compendium, in any case.  A per-class organisation for class-related fixes would be nice; which would cut down the number of fixes anyone needs to read - you'd still need a general section, but it could be much shorter.


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## Eldorian (Nov 18, 2009)

abyssaldeath said:


> If you are referring to Howling Strike then Stout doesn't help there. Howling Strike has been changed to only require that you wield a melee weapon in two hands.




You might want to argue that, but then you'd realize that without the stout keyword, a double weapon is like wielding two one handed weapons, and not wielding a weapon in two hands.  Although, the wording is unclear, like the wording so often is.  It's pretty clear the intent is for your weapon to have to be stout to be used in Howling strike.


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## Markn (Nov 18, 2009)

Ryujin said:


> These rules updates make me feel a little better about my character which I built for role play, rather than power gaming. At least three separate things that are used by our Battlerager, who commonly does 50% more damage per attack than my Warlock, have been nerfed by the errata. That gets damage more in line between a Defender/Striker and a Striker/Controller, the way I figure that it should be.
> 
> My 2d8 + 2d6 + 11 sword strike isn't all that anaemic anymore
> 
> ...




I think we can both agree that Darkpact is required to increase the damage output to that of other strikers.  While its not necessary, its the most common route.  So you are right about that being the most common.

For my build, I'm equal into Con and Cha, both at 21 on level 18.  I like the versatility in being able to take any power instead of focusing only on one stat.  Int is less than most warlock builds but not by much.  I've also MC into rogue and while my round to round damage is often less than some, I can spike higher than anyone in our group.  My cursegrind at 18th level does 2d10+17 plus 2d8 curse (vicious rod) plus 3d6 (sneak attack) and if I use my Eldritch gloves plus another 2d6. plus 1 more if I have CA and soon it will be +5 more if I have Prime Shot due to another feat.

Where is the Puck reference from?  Wouldn't be a superhero, would it?


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## Klaus (Nov 18, 2009)

Puck is the mischievous fey made famous by Shakespeare's A Midsummer Night's Dream. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puck_(mythology)


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## Dr_Ruminahui (Nov 18, 2009)

It's from Shakespeare's Midsummer's Night's Dream, though I believe he predates it - he's probably the best known of the fey from English folklore.

As such, he's also been used in a number of other places, so he may well be a comic book character as well - comic books do tend to "steal" characters from all over (like, say, Thor).


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## Markn (Nov 18, 2009)

D'oh...Guess I'm not that knowledgable afterall.  

Thanks for the references guys!


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## Infiniti2000 (Nov 18, 2009)

You're all wrong.  Puck is from Alpha flight!


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## Dr_Ruminahui (Nov 18, 2009)

Which, if you check the "name" section at the bottom, was named after Shakespeare's Puck.


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## frankthedm (Nov 18, 2009)

Good to see that wotc will own up to mistakes and say "Oops, too strong" when fixing [snip][snip] something rather just blindly saying "errata".


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## Markn (Nov 18, 2009)

Infiniti2000 said:


> You're all wrong.  Puck is from Alpha flight!




That's who I was thinking of, personally!


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## Ryujin (Nov 18, 2009)

Markn said:


> I think we can both agree that Darkpact is required to increase the damage output to that of other strikers.  While its not necessary, its the most common route.  So you are right about that being the most common.
> 
> For my build, I'm equal into Con and Cha, both at 21 on level 18.  I like the versatility in being able to take any power instead of focusing only on one stat.  Int is less than most warlock builds but not by much.  I've also MC into rogue and while my round to round damage is often less than some, I can spike higher than anyone in our group.  My cursegrind at 18th level does 2d10+17 plus 2d8 curse (vicious rod) plus 3d6 (sneak attack) and if I use my Eldritch gloves plus another 2d6. plus 1 more if I have CA and soon it will be +5 more if I have Prime Shot due to another feat.
> 
> Where is the Puck reference from?  Wouldn't be a superhero, would it?




I went a different route, starting with two 16s (INT and CHA, now 22 and 20 respectively), with an Eladrin. That put INT 2 points higher than my main attack stat. I teleport like a mofo and my effects get a boost, but my hit bonus suffers.

That's some substantial damage there. At 17th level I'm kicking out 2d10+2d6+d8+16 with Cursegrind using a Longsword Of Summer. Not enough DEX for Dual Implement Spellcaster. Since my primary implement is the longsword I'll be tossing a 12th level Khyber Shard of the Fiery Depths on it, for an additional +3 damage on all powers and melee basic attack (the sword does fire damage), next playing session. I like the additional damage from the sword, but I'd be just as happy with a radiant weapon. Also using Gloves of Eldritch Admixture, like you. I gave up on Called Shot. My original concept included Called Shot and Prime Punisher for +23 hit 2d8+2d6+16 damage on a melee basic attack at 17th, but I wasn't getting to use it enough.

As stated elsewhere I MC'd into Bard, for both flavour and mechanical reasons.

The Puck reference is from Shakespear's A Midsummer Night's Dream, which he stole from Celtic Mythology, which in turn got stolen by some comic book guy 

I wonder which of us will have our "tricks" nerfed first, in the next updates


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## Redclaw (Nov 18, 2009)

I disagree.  Armor of Faith absolutely needed fixing.  Avengers, with their greatly increased chance of hitting and even critting, thanks to the second d20, deal at least as much damage, against a level appropriate monster, as any of the other striker classes.  They don't get bonus damage, but they deal their normal damage more often.

Armor of Faith, mixed with leather armor turned them into solo attackers, which 4E has worked hard to avoid.  Now they need their defenders again, just as the rogue and warlock do.


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## frankthedm (Nov 18, 2009)

So _that_ is what bloodclaw did? Good to see that got neutered. Trading HP for more damage at will is way too good since the 4E ruleset is rigged for player survivability. Especially since death is negative 1/2 HP!


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## Herschel (Nov 18, 2009)

Obryn said:


> I'll note that I love the changes, and feel vindicated in my "banned" list.
> 
> It actually affected 3 PCs in my game, but naturally the Avenger was hardest-hit. He's taking it well, though!
> 
> ...




I think EVERY one of my characters will feel the effect of the errata. That said, it's three swordmages, an avenger and a bard and the only negative is the armor ruling. My Deva Swordmage just got her immortal warding feat back.


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## Thanee (Nov 18, 2009)

frankthedm said:


> So _that_ is what bloodclaw did? Good to see that got neutered.




Yep. Bloodclaw was simply free extra damage (and not even a small amount). Way too good.

Bye
Thanee


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## CovertOps (Nov 18, 2009)

I have an Avenger in my monthly game (this Sat) [sarcasm] and I can hardly wait to tell the player who whines the most at my table that his 20 INT/18 WIS Deva and an AC that's 3 points higher than either of the defenders in my group that he's getting the nerf bat [/sarcasm].

On a plus note I am happy that his AC will no longer be 8 points higher than most of the non-defenders in my group.

(from memory - apologies for any mistakes)

10 Base
+6 (22 INT) - Yes he started with an 18 + racial here.
+4 1/2 Level (8)
+4 Leather (Enhance +2)
+4 Improved Armor of Faith
+1 2-Weapon Defense
+1 Urgrosh (Defensive)
___
30 AC (the same as a 23 AC at first level)
+1 (situational - but most every turn) Those boots that if you shift a square on your turn.

My sense is he's going to lose 3 points of AC.  2 from the lost Leather and 1 from the Urgrosh if an above posters assessment is correct about defensive not applying to the main hand end of a double weapon which incidentally gives him the exact same AC as the Paladin in my group (27).


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## keterys (Nov 18, 2009)

There are double weapons that are still defensive - just not the one that has the most damaging main hand.


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## Mengu (Nov 18, 2009)

eamon said:


> Next up, Bracers of Archery + Iron Armbands?  Die?  Please?




While I absolutely dislike that these items take up a slot (and the staff of ruin), and was originally vehemently opposed to their use, sadly, now after playing the game for a while, I think they are a required fix. Monsters get more and more hit points at higher levels, and damage output doesn't scale quite as fast. Without these items, combats would take even longer. If I had a way of incorporating a +1 item bonus to damage/5 levels into the system for every character, I would do so, and ditch these items.

But as it stands, I don't think it likely that we will see any updates for these items.


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## Markn (Nov 18, 2009)

Ryujin said:


> I went a different route, starting with two 16s (INT and CHA, now 22 and 20 respectively), with an Eladrin. That put INT 2 points higher than my main attack stat. I teleport like a mofo and my effects get a boost, but my hit bonus suffers.
> 
> That's some substantial damage there. At 17th level I'm kicking out 2d10+2d6+d8+16 with Cursegrind using a Longsword Of Summer. Not enough DEX for Dual Implement Spellcaster. Since my primary implement is the longsword I'll be tossing a 12th level Khyber Shard of the Fiery Depths on it, for an additional +3 damage on all powers and melee basic attack (the sword does fire damage), next playing session. I like the additional damage from the sword, but I'd be just as happy with a radiant weapon. Also using Gloves of Eldritch Admixture, like you. I gave up on Called Shot. My original concept included Called Shot and Prime Punisher for +23 hit 2d8+2d6+16 damage on a melee basic attack at 17th, but I wasn't getting to use it enough.
> 
> ...




I was tempted to go Eladrin, but in the end went half-elf.  I believe I started with 15's in Con/Cha and had a +2 in each stat from the race.  I teleport a few times a combat and thanks to my ring I get 1 extra range.  

I like your concept with the sword, looks cool.

As for Called Shot, I'm not yet sold on it.  I often forget to add the +1 to attack when I get Prime Shot, so I'm not even sure how much I get it.  Its one of those circumstantial bonuses I almost always forget.  I figure, take the feat for extra damage, that will help me remember it and if I don't get a lot of use out of it, drop it for something else.

I considered MCing into a Barb but took Jack of All Trades feat instead to boost the skills.  That combined with some new items I recently got really boosts some of my stats.  I am better in some untrained skills than some of my trained skills.  Somehow, I still roll like crap in skill challenges though.  

I'm not too sure they will change a lot for the Warlock.  It seems to be about right.  I could see some of the items getting nerfed a bit.  I have Shadow Warlock Armor and it rocks.  I highly recommend it.  With the CA I usually get, my FotV pact boon, Minor gift of Foresight, etc, my guy is the most consistent hitter in the group, often in the low 30's to hit a few rounds in the fight.  Even when I miss, I use Dark One's luck to get a reroll 1/day and when I reach Epic Destiny I plan to take Deadly Trickster gving me 3 more rerolls a day.  I'm all about hitting.  High damage is good, hitting every round is even better.  Lots o' fun!


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## Ryujin (Nov 18, 2009)

CHAlock + Bard multi-class + Skald's Armour + Glib Limerick = Bluff of the Gods 

CHAlock + Bard multi-class + Skald's Armour + Call of Friendship + Tune of Merriment = Drink all night for free


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## Markn (Nov 18, 2009)

Ryujin said:


> CHAlock + Bard multi-class + Skald's Armour + Glib Limerick = Bluff of the Gods
> 
> CHAlock + Bard multi-class + Skald's Armour + Call of Friendship + Tune of Merriment = Drink all night for free




You may want to look at the Ioun Stone of Pefect Languages.


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## eamon (Nov 18, 2009)

Diirk said:


> The new double weapons don't completely work properly. They stuck the defensive property on the main hand end for some reason, but the definition of defensive requires that it be in the offhand to function. So no AC bonus for anyone using a double weapon, as written.



No, a defensive weapon grants you a +1 bonus to AC while you wield the defensive weapon in one hand and wield another melee weapon in your* other hand*.

And just to go into over-the-top debunk mode: _even if_ it had said off-hand; the intent would have been crystal clear.  Further, note that there's no fixed designation of an "off" hand in 4e _in general_, so, _supposing _the rules hadn't said _other_ hand, and then _supposing _the intent weren't clear, it's not actually clear to me whether main hand vs. off hand is a prescriptive or merely descriptive phrase - so you conceivably could consider a different hand main or off for various purposes (it doesn't actually much matter much for almost anything that I can determine - just so long as the two hands are distinct for any given purpose).

Anyhow, fortunately the defensive property doesn't say off-hand, so we don't need to open any further cans of worms .


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## Ryujin (Nov 18, 2009)

Markn said:


> You may want to look at the Ioun Stone of Pefect Languages.




It's an Item Bonus, so it doesn't stack. The Skald's Armour lets me have some schmuck next to me take the hit, instead of me.


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## eamon (Nov 18, 2009)

Mengu said:


> While I absolutely dislike that these items take up a slot (and the staff of ruin), and was originally vehemently opposed to their use, sadly, now after playing the game for a while, I think they are a required fix. Monsters get more and more hit points at higher levels, and damage output doesn't scale quite as fast. Without these items, combats would take even longer. If I had a way of incorporating a +1 item bonus to damage/5 levels into the system for every character, I would do so, and ditch these items.



 But - that basically means you're saying they intentionally made must-have items that occupy a given slot and render all other items in that slot pointless for large groups of PC's?  I can hardly imagine that to be true.  Much as I hate expertise; that's just a feat amongst _many_ feat slots - this is much worse, since it occupies a unique slot - that slot might as well not exist for any melee weapon or archery combatant then at all...



> But as it stands, I don't think it likely that we will see any updates for these items.



Maybe.  Frankly, I'd given up hope on double weapons too (that too wasn't actually game breaking, just disturbing), and dual strike before that (probably more problematic), so clearly they're willing to make real changes; who knows?


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## eamon (Nov 18, 2009)

CovertOps said:


> I have an Avenger in my monthly game (this Sat) [sarcasm] and I can hardly wait to tell the player who whines the most at my table that his 20 INT/18 WIS Deva and an AC that's 3 points higher than either of the defenders in my group that he's getting the nerf bat [/sarcasm].
> 
> On a plus note I am happy that his AC will no longer be 8 points higher than most of the non-defenders in my group.
> 
> ...




He'll lose only 2 points; the defensive trick still works.  What a disturbing build - what kind of attack bonus does he have?  It must be _terrible_ - right? No, wait, how'd he get that high a Wis (rolled stats?).

In any case, it's a great example of why Armor of Faith in leather needed to _go_ - and that's _before _improved armor of faith (shudder - think of what he would have done with that :-D).

For that matter, the interaction between Hide Armor Expertise and Barbarian Agility is looking more suspicious too - perhaps hide armor expertise should make the armor be considered heavy for the purposes of class features?


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## the8bitdeity (Nov 18, 2009)

eamon said:


> Maybe.  Frankly, I'd given up hope on double weapons too (that too wasn't actually game breaking, just disturbing), and dual strike before that (probably more problematic), so clearly they're willing to make real changes; who knows?




One of the devs in the char op section said that they've really formalized the update process at this point, and updates should be more frequent but wouldn't go so far as to say monthly.


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## Markn (Nov 18, 2009)

Ryujin said:


> It's an Item Bonus, so it doesn't stack. The Skald's Armour lets me have some schmuck next to me take the hit, instead of me.




The only item I looked at was the armor and only the level 3 version.  I didn't realize the bonus increases with the plus on the armor.  That's pretty handy.  Not a big fan of the power on the armor though.  Being daily, the once a day thing isn't all that great, IMHO.  I have found the Shadow Warlock Armor to be awesome!  a consistent +2 to hit cursed guys is fantastic and some other feats really make this armor even better.

Your armor certainly fits your character concept though, as does mine, since he is MC'd into rogue which also gives me the ability to pop SA at any point I choose as oppose to when circumstances dictate.


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## Felon (Nov 18, 2009)

Kzach said:


> Their secondary role is either defender or controller so no, it really didn't need 'fixing'.



Ah, the "secondary role" rationale rears its en-vogue head.

I like the avenger class, but it sure seems like the designers didn't know where to go with it in regards to weapons and armor. With weapons, they are steered towards wielding the biggest weapon they can get their hands on by de facto virtue of having no incentive to use anything that isn't at the extreme end of the damage spectrum. That's a big hole in 4e martial classes in general I suppose. If you want to build some cool character like Enzio or Altair from the Assassin's Creed franchise, tricked out with all kinds of finesse weapons, it's pretty much rogue or bust, because everyone else is wielding a fullblade or one of its analogues.

And what's the whole deal with putting avengers in cloth anyway, then giving them a faux set of hide? Now you have some guy running around dressed like a wizard but swinging a barbarian's weapon--makes a pain to find a good minis, if nothing else. Just give them chainmail proficiency and then they are on-par with all of the other non-defender classes.


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## Diirk (Nov 18, 2009)

eamon said:


> No, a defensive weapon grants you a +1 bonus to AC while you wield the defensive weapon in one hand and wield another melee weapon in your* other hand*.
> 
> And just to go into over-the-top debunk mode: _even if_ it had said off-hand; the intent would have been crystal clear.  Further, note that there's no fixed designation of an "off" hand in 4e _in general_, so, _supposing _the rules hadn't said _other_ hand, and then _supposing _the intent weren't clear, it's not actually clear to me whether main hand vs. off hand is a prescriptive or merely descriptive phrase - so you conceivably could consider a different hand main or off for various purposes (it doesn't actually much matter much for almost anything that I can determine - just so long as the two hands are distinct for any given purpose).
> 
> Anyhow, fortunately the defensive property doesn't say off-hand, so we don't need to open any further cans of worms .




I wasn't arguing about intent, I wouldn't have ruled it that way in an actual game regardless. But, yeah you're right it says 'while you wield the defensive weapon in one hand and another melee weapon in your other hand', I guess I misremembered it (that will teach me to post without doublechecking).


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## Felon (Nov 18, 2009)

Any references to the Devoted Paladin/Healing Hands redundancy issue?


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## Mengu (Nov 18, 2009)

eamon said:


> But - that basically means you're saying they intentionally made must-have items that occupy a given slot and render all other items in that slot pointless for large groups of PC's?




Oh I certainly agree. That's the part I hate about the items. I just wish there was another way to deal with it, but currently it's the only (RAW) way to add the automatic extra damage.

Perhaps a house rule solution would be to allow iron armbands in addition to another arm slot item for the time being. You do have two arms after all. Doesn't help casters though, especially those who can't get staff implements. Too bad there isn't a way to finagle the character builder to comply with this house rule, like I do with free expertise.


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## UngeheuerLich (Nov 18, 2009)

monk double defensive weapon wielder with TWF and TWD feat. +3 AC for 2 feats 

edit: no, wrong, defensive doesn´t stack.


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## keterys (Nov 18, 2009)

In one home game I plan to just give people a Boon of +2 item bonus to damage at 6th (all of them, no matter which class, etc). Course, the char builder won't deal, but ah well.


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## Mengu (Nov 18, 2009)

keterys said:


> In one home game I plan to just give people a Boon of +2 item bonus to damage at 6th (all of them, no matter which class, etc). Course, the char builder won't deal, but ah well.




Yeah, I pondered something similar with +1 at 3/8/13/18/23/28. Maybe they ought to make that boon.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Nov 18, 2009)

Pretending for a moment we all loved Weapon/Implement Expertise, my "damage" fix would be to have Weapon Focus and Implement Focus as feats that give +2 feat bonus to damage per tier. I think I would keep the Astral Fire style of feats around but set the damage to a fixed +2 (untyped) then.

Of course, I am a German, we like taxes.


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## Saeviomagy (Nov 18, 2009)

Mengu said:


> While I absolutely dislike that these items take up a slot (and the staff of ruin), and was originally vehemently opposed to their use, sadly, now after playing the game for a while, I think they are a required fix. Monsters get more and more hit points at higher levels, and damage output doesn't scale quite as fast. Without these items, combats would take even longer. If I had a way of incorporating a +1 item bonus to damage/5 levels into the system for every character, I would do so, and ditch these items.
> 
> But as it stands, I don't think it likely that we will see any updates for these items.




A far, far better solution would be to have items which do MORE damage, but in more restricted situations.

You know, sticking to the whole "no boring +x to y magic items" design that they started with.


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## jbear (Nov 18, 2009)

So if Hero of the Faith is in this update, the fix includes divine power, right?

And no change to Solar Enemy Feat??? Or Hymn of Resurgence?

That's quite surprising.


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## Mirtek (Nov 18, 2009)

eamon said:


> Next up, Bracers of Archery + Iron Armbands?  Die?  Please?  (I play melee weapon-wielders as often and not, and those things are the damnest most boring thing EVAR - but overshadow pretty much everything else, all the time.)



 Boring != overpowered. A lot of people miss these "boring" items that vanish quietly into the general math on your character sheet and work silenty in the background. I absolutely prefer them to all these stupid "one a time at bandcamp" stuff (even items with encounter powers are barely tolerable)


Saeviomagy said:


> A far, far better solution would be to have items which do MORE damage, but in more restricted situations.



 A far, far better solution would be to have these items which do MORE damage, but in more restricted situations for people like you and the small but steady contributors for people like me.


Saeviomagy said:


> You know, sticking to the whole "no boring +x to y magic items" design that they started with.



 If find these encounter power items really boring. Wow, it does something in this single round after being dormant the first 4 rounds of combat and will be dormant again for the last 3 rounds of our 8 round combat, how exciting an item it truly is (and don't even mention items with daily powers)

So they should really give you your +3 to reflex interrupt after being hit by an attack against reflex item while I quietly prefer the always +1 to reflex item


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## Mengu (Nov 19, 2009)

Saeviomagy said:


> A far, far better solution would be to have items which do MORE damage, but in more restricted situations.
> 
> You know, sticking to the whole "no boring +x to y magic items" design that they started with.




True, that is a better solution. I really like the "vs bloodied" items, "with combat advantage" items, etc. Wouldn't mind more of those like "if target is not damaged", "if no ally is adjacent to target", etc. Just don't give me items that do extra damage on the second day of the second month, if a Kruthik peeks its head out of a hole.


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## FireLance (Nov 19, 2009)

Saeviomagy said:


> A far, far better solution would be to have items which do MORE damage, but in more restricted situations.
> 
> You know, sticking to the whole "no boring +x to y magic items" design that they started with.



I agree that more items that do more damage under more specific circumstances than _iron armbands of power_/_bracers of archery_ would be good. However, I do think that vanilla +x to y magic items still have their place. As one or two posters have pointed out, some players do prefer to have constant bonuses.


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## keterys (Nov 19, 2009)

FireLance said:


> I agree that more items that do more damage under more specific circumstances than _iron armbands of power_/_bracers of archery_ would be good. However, I do think that vanilla +x to y magic items still have their place. As one or two posters have pointed out, some players do prefer to have constant bonuses.




Of course, due to working far more universally, and especially in passive instead of once per encounter or day roles, those items should be much less powerful than other types.

For example, you might have a +2 bonus to all damage compare to a +6 to damage against bloodied or a +18 damage on opportunity attacks.


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## Ryujin (Nov 19, 2009)

Markn said:


> The only item I looked at was the armor and only the level 3 version.  I didn't realize the bonus increases with the plus on the armor.  That's pretty handy.  Not a big fan of the power on the armor though.  Being daily, the once a day thing isn't all that great, IMHO.  I have found the Shadow Warlock Armor to be awesome!  a consistent +2 to hit cursed guys is fantastic and some other feats really make this armor even better.
> 
> Your armor certainly fits your character concept though, as does mine, since he is MC'd into rogue which also gives me the ability to pop SA at any point I choose as oppose to when circumstances dictate.




I had missed that armour when I was working up my character concept. It would work quite well with my character, as it's very tough to stop me from getting Shadow Walk as the character has an at-will teleport 3 (hopefully soon to be 5). I don't know if I'd have taken it even if I had seen it though, as I'm the designated courtier of the group. Our high CHA cleric seems more adept at picking fights than negotiating, and the rest of the party has 9 CHA. Damned min/maxers.

I've just finished my adjustments for this Friday's session and added a Strikeback Tattoo, in addition to the Khyber Shard. With the amount of criticals that I take, I'll likely get that +2 bonus almost as often as you do


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## Turtlejay (Nov 19, 2009)

My *last* fighter used an Urgosh, and I knew it was overpowered. Or at least a very good choice. The errata is kind of a mixed bag, though, since I had bumped his to hit to the point where Power Attack looked good, but using one handed weapons with it is *not* good. There are also several two handed axe feats that open up now, so even though you lose some of the versatility of the bizarre axe/spear combo working for all powers all the time with a d12, you gain some utility with feat choice. I am only so pragmatic about this because I am not playing him any longer. Were I nerfed mid Paragon (in a PP designed to take advantage of the spear end of my weapon) I'd probably be pretty bugged.

Jay


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## Dragonblade (Nov 19, 2009)

Simple constant bonuses absolutely have their place. Don't touch my Iron Armbands of Power or Bracers of Archery, WotC!!!

There are too many conditional modifiers from items, feats, and powers already.

Often when we play we lose track of conditional modifiers because there are so many. And then we remember and call out two turns later, "Oh hey! That monster was adjacent to a bloodied ally, right? it takes 10 more damage and is slowed!" Then we have to stop play and recalc everything.

I like to have simple constant bonuses.


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## keterys (Nov 19, 2009)

Dragonblade said:


> Often when we play we lose track of conditional modifiers because there are so many. And then we remember and call out two turns later, "Oh hey! That monster was adjacent to a bloodied ally, right? it takes 10 more damage and is slowed!" Then we have to stop play and recalc everything.




I would definitely suggest against ever doing that, unless you're verifying whether someone died or not.



> I like to have simple constant bonuses.




Of course you do. But, that choice is made a lot easier when they're also more effective than any of the specialized crap, which is the case now. If they made armbands give +1 per tier instead of +2 per tier, they'd still be simple constant bonuses. Just less powerful.

Though still probably more powerful than most other options.


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## AbdulAlhazred (Nov 19, 2009)

They're so effective now I don't even remember what the other options ARE. lol.


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## Destil (Nov 19, 2009)

Armbands should die (+5/tier encounter power?). Implement users are already way too far behind without them, except in the cases the bonuses line up right (mostly when they use weapons or a staff of ruin).

Superior weapons are bad enough. Hopefully the armbands can die, superior implements can not suck and then we'll see things more or less even.


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## Markn (Nov 19, 2009)

Ryujin said:


> I had missed that armour when I was working up my character concept. It would work quite well with my character, as it's very tough to stop me from getting Shadow Walk as the character has an at-will teleport 3 (hopefully soon to be 5). I don't know if I'd have taken it even if I had seen it though, as I'm the designated courtier of the group. Our high CHA cleric seems more adept at picking fights than negotiating, and the rest of the party has 9 CHA. Damned min/maxers.
> 
> I've just finished my adjustments for this Friday's session and added a Strikeback Tattoo, in addition to the Khyber Shard. With the amount of criticals that I take, I'll likely get that +2 bonus almost as often as you do





I've got a tattoo that lets me teleport when I get critted.  Its so-so but it has saved my butt once.  Our cleric has Prophecy of Doom (PoD) which lets you turn a hit into a crit.  Our cleric won init, planted PoD on our target, but there was one bad guy who went right before me.  He nailed me and weakened me.  Thanks to the tattoo I teleported and ended beside my Paladin buddy.  I delayed to go after him, he touched me and removed weakened and then I critted the bad guy for 117 damage.  That was fun!

One other thing I will point out for the Shadow Warlock Armor.  Keep in mind that with cursegrind and cursebite, thats a +2 against every target, not just one because they are all cursed.  That significantly ups the to-hit chance and makes those powers even more significant than they already are.

My guy is mostly a stay in the shadows kind of guy.  He's big on intimidate, bluff and stealth when needed so the armor fits quite nicely.


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## Mirtek (Nov 19, 2009)

Destil said:


> Armbands should die (+5/tier encounter power?). Implement users are already way too far behind without them,



 Well, that was prior to dual-implement spellcaster and now we're also having the siberys shards of the mage (and even can have a implement user who uses both dual-implement casting plus a siberys shard of the mage)


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## eamon (Nov 19, 2009)

Mirtek said:


> Well, that was prior to dual-implement spellcaster and now we're also having the siberys shards of the mage (and even can have a implement user who uses both dual-implement casting plus a siberys shard of the mage)



This doesn't really matter.  The armbands and bracers need to go because of how they're balanced with other arm slot items.  Similarly, the staff or ruin needs to be fixed because of how it compares to other implements.

Implement vs. weapon balance doesn't really come into the picture - and what with weapons' high damage dice, features like high crit or brutal or whatnot, implement vs. weapon balance is much more complex.


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## Stalker0 (Nov 19, 2009)

I guess my question is....are constant bonuses too strong, or situational bonuses too weak?

My take is that situational bonuses are too weak for two reasons:

1) Combats can take a while, which indicates more damage may be a good thing.
2) Most magic items to me don't feel that magical or special, they feel really bland, which means they could use some zing.


For example, I don't think a weapon that gave +10 damage on OAs would be overpowered. It would feel really awesome when I get to use it, but it just doesn't come up that often. Because items that require slots are balanced by the fact you can always put a different item in the slot, then specialist items need to be powerful.

I think the best example of this are the charge based items. People have created some great charge based characters with them, but that's their specialty, and charge isn't the best option all the time so I think its a good concept.


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## Ryujin (Nov 19, 2009)

It is frequently possible to obtain a static bonus that doesn't stack with, but performs the same function as, a situational bonus. From a strictly mechanical standpoint why would anyone take the latter, if the former was available?


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## Jhaelen (Nov 19, 2009)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Of course, I am a German, we like taxes.



Wha...?

This is all wrong! 

Noone in Germany likes taxes (well maybe collecting taxes is fun, but I wouldn't know about _that_). I'm already behind again with my annual tax declaration. These days I just don't seem to be able to send them in in time. 

I guess, I'm hanging around in online forums too much...


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## Mengu (Nov 19, 2009)

I'm playing an invoker and was looking for some of those interesting conditional damage options. I combined Gauntlets of Blood with Bloodthirst, figuring with multi-target attacks I could often find a bloodied target. In the last 4 encounters we had, that extra +4 damage came into play twice I think, and I am always on the lookout for bloodied targets so I can use that little bonus. but bloodied targets die so fast, I rarely get a shot at them (and about a third of the time when I do, it misses). So a feat and an item slot yields +4 damage every other encounter, that seems very poor. Perhaps tactically I could just hold my actions until something got bloodied, but that doesn't seem very economical.

Bonuses on opportunity attacks, or combat challenge attacks, or when you are critted, are not very controllable conditions.  So even if an item gave me +10 damage on opportunity attacks, I'm not sure if it would be enough of an attraction.

Things that can be tactically attained, such as flanking, attacking with combat advantage, attacking a marked target, attacking a target with no adjacent allies, etc, are the better conditions for such bonuses, and I'd like to see more bonuses for these controllable conditions.


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## keterys (Nov 19, 2009)

Of course. But the more controllable it is, the less effective it should be.

Of course, you _could_ redo all of the items so that the armbands are the norm and things grow from there, but that seems highly unlikely to happen since it would mean redesigning, what, 95%+ of the items.

Which is why the armbands get brought up as a problem. They're the outliers.


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## Doctor Proctor (Nov 19, 2009)

Mengu said:


> Bonuses on opportunity attacks, or combat challenge attacks, or when you are critted, are not very controllable conditions.  So even if an item gave me +10 damage on opportunity attacks, I'm not sure if it would be enough of an attraction.




Actually, things like OA's and Combat Challenge _are_ controllable...by the DM.  I would be very wary about taking something like a +10 damage on an OA, because that's one sure fire way to make sure I never get an OA again! (My DM already hates giving me OA's and CC attacks anyway, due to my habit of killing the guys...especially when I crit for 30 damage!)



> Things that can be tactically attained, such as flanking, attacking with combat advantage, attacking a marked target, attacking a target with no adjacent allies, etc, are the better conditions for such bonuses, and I'd like to see more bonuses for these controllable conditions.




These things are controllable by the players, which is why they would come up more.  Also, note that many of these things already have bonuses associated with them...they're just feats.


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## Saeviomagy (Nov 19, 2009)

keterys said:


> Of course, due to working far more universally, and especially in passive instead of once per encounter or day roles, those items should be much less powerful than other types.




Exactly: if people want their iron armbands, then the iron armbands should be a lot weaker than they are. At present there is no damage dealing alternative that's anywhere near as good, and since there are lots of damage dealing alternatives, it suggests that the armbands are overpowered.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Nov 19, 2009)

Jhaelen said:


> Wha...?
> 
> This is all wrong!
> 
> ...



I should have written "we like complex tax systems", but that doesn't really fit, I think, and so I had to resort to lies.


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## AllisterH (Nov 20, 2009)

Saeviomagy said:


> Exactly: if people want their iron armbands, then the iron armbands should be a lot weaker than they are. At present there is no damage dealing alternative that's anywhere near as good, and since there are lots of damage dealing alternatives, it suggests that the armbands are overpowered.




Not true.

Radiant Weapons don't stack with iron armbands and you can actually exceed iron armbands with proper feat and power selection.


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## Dr_Ruminahui (Nov 20, 2009)

We've had the armband argument multiple times before in multiple threads - is this really the place to rehash it, and wouldn't it be better to discuss the actual erratta changes rather than whether armbands should or should not have been erratted too?


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## keterys (Nov 20, 2009)

AllisterH said:


> Not true.
> 
> Radiant Weapons don't stack with iron armbands and you can actually exceed iron armbands with proper feat and power selection.




Summer Weapons stack with them just fine, at the same level. And I'm not entirely sure what either it, or radiant, or any feat or power, has to do with arm slot items


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## Ryujin (Nov 20, 2009)

Markn said:


> I've got a tattoo that lets me teleport when I get critted.  Its so-so but it has saved my butt once.  Our cleric has Prophecy of Doom (PoD) which lets you turn a hit into a crit.  Our cleric won init, planted PoD on our target, but there was one bad guy who went right before me.  He nailed me and weakened me.  Thanks to the tattoo I teleported and ended beside my Paladin buddy.  I delayed to go after him, he touched me and removed weakened and then I critted the bad guy for 117 damage.  That was fun!
> 
> One other thing I will point out for the Shadow Warlock Armor.  Keep in mind that with cursegrind and cursebite, thats a +2 against every target, not just one because they are all cursed.  That significantly ups the to-hit chance and makes those powers even more significant than they already are.
> 
> My guy is mostly a stay in the shadows kind of guy.  He's big on intimidate, bluff and stealth when needed so the armor fits quite nicely.




To b e honest, I'm surprised that people haven't complained about the magical tattoos. They exist in a newly created item slot. They can have some rather powerful, though admittedly situational effects.


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## Markn (Nov 20, 2009)

Ryujin

I think its mostly because the tattoos are so situational.  I had concerns about them at first but they have had less impact than I expected.


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## eamon (Nov 20, 2009)

Markn said:


> Ryujin
> 
> I think its mostly because the tattoos are so situational.  I had concerns about them at first but they have had less impact than I expected.




Same here.  Some people have em, but they just don't matter much.  I think they even get forgotton sometimes - which is a different kind of problem.


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## Ryujin (Nov 20, 2009)

eamon said:


> Same here.  Some people have em, but they just don't matter much.  I think they even get forgotton sometimes - which is a different kind of problem.




Which is why so many people (including myself) tend to look for items with useful properties over situational adds. They're far easier to keep track of. In the case of the Strikeback Tattoo though, as I frequently feel like a crit-hit punching bag, the +2 to hit that creature for the whole encounter is too good to pass up.

"You're making me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry."


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## keterys (Nov 20, 2009)

The temp hp and resistance tattoos seem quite solid.


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## Amphimir Míriel (Nov 21, 2009)

Mirtek said:


> Boring != overpowered. A lot of people miss these "boring" items that vanish quietly into the general math on your character sheet and work silenty in the background. I absolutely prefer them to all these stupid "one a time at bandcamp" stuff (even items with encounter powers are barely tolerable)




In that case, wouldn't it be better to just add an "awesomeness bonus" to your character, and do away with those magic items entirely?

For some of us, the whole "+1 to hit and damage" thing is boring and items that let you do "special" stuff once in a while are much more interesting.

Even the "plate and spoon that creates magic nourishing gruel that tastes like wet cardboard" is a lot more interesting, narratively speaking, than just another +1 to hit and damage and another +1d6 to criticals.

Encounter powers in items is one way to include interesting abilities to weapons or implements without turning characters into boring invincible heros (ANGELIC HORDES, COME FORTH! )


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## FireLance (Nov 21, 2009)

Amphimir Míriel said:


> (ANGELIC HORDES, COME FORTH! )



[Off-topic]Incidentally, when I was playing an invoker, I said this every time I used _angelic echelon_ (Invoker Daily Attack 1). [/Off-topic]


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## CapnZapp (Nov 22, 2009)

I have had the tattoos in my game occupy an item slot.

The characters got to choose where on their bodies to have the tattoo, though, so they could always choose the slot they believed they were going to get the least use out of.


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## eamon (Nov 22, 2009)

CapnZapp said:


> I have had the tattoos in my game occupy an item slot.
> 
> The characters got to choose where on their bodies to have the tattoo, though, so they could always choose the slot they believed they were going to get the least use out of.




As said above though, I don't think this is really necessary.  Do many people have tattoos in that campaign?  In any case, it's not like every new holy symbol and/or wondrous item isn't essentially a new item slot anyhow; so as long as they're somewhat limited in scope, the whole unslotted thing shouldn't matter too much anyhow.  Tattoo's are also limited in that you can't trade em around the party between combats as easily.


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## Tarrl (Nov 25, 2009)

Stalker0 said:


> I guess my question is....are constant bonuses too strong, or situational bonuses too weak?
> 
> My take is that situational bonuses are too weak for two reasons:
> 
> ...



I think anything that helps speed up combat @ paragon level is a good thing. we are down to one combat per 3 1/2hr night of gaming. So nerfing some of these items will just drag out combats even longer.


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## Diirk (Nov 25, 2009)

Stalker0 said:


> I guess my question is....are constant bonuses too strong, or situational bonuses too weak?
> 
> My take is that situational bonuses are too weak for two reasons:
> 
> ...



Charge based items are actually a good example of a problem. There are already items so that on a charge you get a boost to damage, bonus to defenses, and no provoking AoOs for movement. It wouldn't be too bad if it truly was situational, but for a focused charging build, not only is it pretty much always the best option, but you have all the tools necessary to do it reliably (at least) every round.


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## Iron Sky (Nov 25, 2009)

eamon said:


> Tattoo's are also limited in that you can't trade em around the party between combats as easily.




And that they take up the tattoo slot so you can only have 1 at a time...


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