# [Star Wars] The "Obi-Wan is Vader" Hypothesis



## Tom Cashel (May 17, 2002)

I've been seeing lots of cryptic references to this hypothesis, but I don't see much in the films to back it up.  What's the evidence?  What's the story?


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## A2Z (May 17, 2002)

I thought Obi-Wan was really the Emperor.


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## el-remmen (May 17, 2002)

No, Dude . . R2-D2 is a Jedi Master.  There is PLENTY of evidence for this 


Really. . .


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## A2Z (May 17, 2002)

nemmerle said:
			
		

> *No, Dude . . R2-D2 is a Jedi Master.  There is PLENTY of evidence for this
> 
> 
> Really. . . *



Riiiight... and Padme's Tarkin... wait a minute. I think I'm on to something.


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## Tom Cashel (May 17, 2002)

Yeah, I kinda figured it was gonna be something like that...

Did you guys hear what happens in Epi. III?  The disgraced Jar-Jar sinks into an alcoholic depression and lets his beard grow.  Unfortunately, Gungans' beards cover their entire body--when Jar-Jar returns from skid row he has changed his name to (you guessed it)...

"Chewbacca."


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## Sodalis (May 17, 2002)

the older anikin is really a clone. If you noticed, ani at ten yrs had straight blonde hair.  the 20 yr old ani has wavy hair.  That proves that he really died in the pod race on tatooine and the emperor cloned him to lead the jedis into a trap, and also to make a protege for himself.  

That would explain why he has grown so quickly in the last couple of films.  He was ten, while the princess was 18.  Now the princess is twenty, and he is also twenty... how do you account for that?  a clone grows and ages at a greater rate than normal humans- 

He will eventually grow to become old and withered, but the use of teh force will make him powerful enough to sustain life, even in a withered body.  He will then usurp the throne of palpatine and declare himself emperor.  Darth vader is a robot he created (like 3po) and transplanted his memory into, but accidentally gave him emotions- which was his weakness...and eventual downfall.


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## Tom Cashel (May 17, 2002)

That's a good one, but all you're missing is the little  things...


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## hong (May 18, 2002)

Tom Cashel said:
			
		

> *That's a good one, but all you're missing is the little  things... *




Nah. Smileys are for wimps.


Hong "trust me on this" Ooi


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## nameless (May 18, 2002)

Anakin get his hand chopped and replaced by Dooku. Obi-wan did not, in Ep II or Ep IV. Vader on the other hand (no pun intended) was less man than machine. IMO, that puts a switcheroo pretty much out of the question. The only burning question is how DOESN'T Vader know where his children, his wife, his droids, and his former master are living at the beginning of Ep IV...

-nameless


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## Crothian (May 18, 2002)

Tom Cashel said:
			
		

> *Yeah, I kinda figured it was gonna be something like that...
> 
> Did you guys hear what happens in Epi. III?  The disgraced Jar-Jar sinks into an alcoholic depression and lets his beard grow.  Unfortunately, Gungans' beards cover their entire body--when Jar-Jar returns from skid row he has changed his name to (you guessed it)...
> 
> "Chewbacca." *




Actually, I saw in the Official Star Wars Fan Film Awards (great show on sci fi by the way) that there was a discussion between Lucas and Jar Jar that Jar Jar was actually going to be Chewie's father.


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## starwolf (May 18, 2002)

nemmerle said:
			
		

> *No, Dude . . R2-D2 is a Jedi Master.  There is PLENTY of evidence for this
> 
> 
> Really. . . *




Yep, you're right...R2 is a Jedi. I can cite at least three times where R2 shows his true colors.


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## Crothian (May 18, 2002)

starwolf said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Yep, you're right...R2 is a Jedi. I can cite at least three times where R2 shows his true colors.  *




He's actually powerful enough to use the Jedi mind trick on even strong minds.  How else does Obi Wan forget about him and 3PO by episode 4?


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## el-remmen (May 18, 2002)

R2-D2 was a Jedi Master!

The site is old, but still not done.


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## The It's Man (May 18, 2002)

*It's...*


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## Mistwell (May 18, 2002)

Crothian said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Actually, I saw in the Official Star Wars Fan Film Awards (great show on sci fi by the way) that there was a discussion between Lucas and Jar Jar that Jar Jar was actually going to be Chewie's father. *




It would have been much better if they had actually included all the categories up for awards .  For example, best Comedy, which was Stargeeks, a film my girlfriend was in and helped make.  http://atomfilms.shockwave.com/af/content/atom_838 . Or Figure Club, another great winner that didn't get shown on the sci-fi special. http://atomfilms.shockwave.com/af/content/figure_club .


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## Crothian (May 18, 2002)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> *
> 
> It would have been much better if they had actually included all the categories up for awards .  For example, best Comedy, which was Stargeeks, a film my girlfriend was in and helped make.  http://atomfilms.shockwave.com/af/content/atom_838 . Or Figure Club, another great winner that didn't get shown on the sci-fi special. http://atomfilms.shockwave.com/af/content/figure_club . *




Hey, thanks for these links.


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## MavrickWeirdo (May 18, 2002)

starwolf said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Yep, you're right...R2 is a Jedi. I can cite at least three times where R2 shows his true colors.  *




1. 4 driods went out to repair the shields, only 1 came back.

2. Found Vader's son.

2. When he destroid the Death Star (You didn't really believe Luke did it?)


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## FireLance (May 18, 2002)

Actually, I think Palpatine is Anakin's father.

Shmi might not remember how Anakin was conceived, but she could have been mindwiped.  That would make a lot more sense than the whole virgin birth thing.

Just think of it:

Palpatine: "Anakin, I am your father."
Anakin: "Noooo..."


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## mirzabah (May 18, 2002)

Boy are you guys slow... Obi  Wan, Anakin, Darth Vader, the Emperor, Luke Skywalker, Padme, Princess Leia, Lando Calrissian, Han Solo, Jar Jar, R2-D2, C3PO, Jar Jar and the entire Ewok tribe except for the shaman are all the same person.

Two words: time travel.


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## Rowenstin (May 18, 2002)

nameless said:
			
		

> *The only burning question is how DOESN'T Vader know where his children, his wife, his droids, and his former master are living at the beginning of Ep IV...*




Yeah, he could said "C3PO, I am your father..."


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## Snoweel (May 18, 2002)

> *The only burning question is how DOESN'T Vader know where his children, his wife, his droids, and his former master are living at the beginning of Ep IV...*




Yeah, one wonders why he wouldn't think to look on Tatooine - EVERYBODY'S long-lost relatives/friends/Jedi Masters go there to get away from it all/get on the dole/retire.

It's kinda like Australia's Gold Coast.

And don't you think they would've changed Luke's name? Bail was smart enough to do it for Leia. I guess Skywalker's the Tatooine equivalent of Smith.

Now I'm just ruining it for myself...


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## Dark Helmet (May 18, 2002)

FireLance said:
			
		

> *Actually, I think Palpatine is Anakin's father.
> 
> Shmi might not remember how Anakin was conceived, but she could have been mindwiped.  That would make a lot more sense than the whole virgin birth thing.
> 
> ...




No dood. It's Yoda!!!

Think about it. If you were Shmi, would YOU admit you had sex with a muppet?

I rest my case.


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## Snoweel (May 18, 2002)

Well dude, I can't think why she would care about hiding the fact, considering the actress who plays Shmi (Pernilla August), is Swedish - these women feel no shame.


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## Eryx (May 19, 2002)

nameless said:
			
		

> * The only burning question is how DOESN'T Vader know where his children, his wife, his droids, and his former master are living at the beginning of Ep IV...*




1). I imagine that Obi-Wan hides the children after they are born, perhaps realising that they (at least one) are powerful with the force. 
Anakain has turned more to the dark side and Padme agrees with Obi-Wan to do this. In his rage (as he does with the Sand People) Anakin kills Padme for this.

2). Although it's never mentioned in the films (to date) it is established SW canon that every so many years a droid is memory-wiped to prevent it gaining a personality. Luke never bothers to do this with R2 and 3PO.
Theres also a lot of R2 and 3PO model droids around anyway, Vader/Anakin would never know one from another.

3). Obi-Wan is in hiding, and since he hid one child (the most force sensitive) on tatooine, it makes sense for him to hide there as well, to keep an eye on him.


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## Darkness (May 19, 2002)

mirzabah said:
			
		

> *Boy are you guys slow... Obi  Wan, Anakin, Darth Vader, the Emperor, Luke Skywalker, Padme, Princess Leia, Lando Calrissian, Han Solo, Jar Jar, R2-D2, C3PO, Jar Jar and the entire Ewok tribe except for the shaman are all the same person.
> 
> Two words: time travel. *



Hmm... This would also explain the rumor from the old EN boards - that there were only four real people there, and a couple thousand alt.IDs...


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## 333 Dave (May 19, 2002)

*How many times do I have to tell you people....*

Darth Vader is Anakin Skywalker's CLONE! Think about it, if you were making a clone army, would you leave un-cloned the Chosen One? I mean, just in case you couldn't turn him yourself, you'd want a back up or two. Who knows, maybe there were a dozen Vaders at one point and after a while Palpatine didn't need them all anymore, so he let them all kill each other and let the best one be his right hand.
But seriously, Vader can't be Luke's father _and_ have killed Anakin, but he could have been his clone. And why would Obi-Wan lie about the cloning? Why lie about his father in the first place?


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## Eryx (May 19, 2002)

*Re: How many times do I have to tell you people....*



			
				333 Dave said:
			
		

> *But seriously, Vader can't be Luke's father and have killed Anakin, but he could have been his clone.  *




You've got it wrong. In EP4, when Obi-Wan tells Luke that Vader betrayed and murdered Anakin he was speaking metaphorically. He didn't mean he literally killed him.


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## Breakstone (May 19, 2002)

Now here's my nitpick: In Episode 1, Anakin is destined to "bring balance to the force."

But look at the force:


The Good Force includes that entire Council, along with a bunch of Jedi's in Training, right?

The Bad Force includes... 2 guys. Well, actually, at the end it's 1 and 2 halves guys.

More Good, Less Bad. How do we balance this?

HOW COULD THE JEDI BE SO STUPID???


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## Duncan Haldane (May 19, 2002)

Potential spoiler for EpII....

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During EpII I was wondering how come Luke never noticed a certain gravestone at the farm he grew up on mentioning a very familiar name...


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## PenguinKing (May 19, 2002)

Eryx said:
			
		

> *Theres also a lot of R2 and 3PO model droids around anyway, Vader/Anakin would never know one from another.*



As far as I can recall, throughout the whole original trilogy, Vader only ever saw R2D2 when he was in the back of Luke's X-Wing, and he _never_ laid eyes on C3P0 at all.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but...

 - Sir Bob.


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## Ristamar (May 19, 2002)

PenguinKing said:
			
		

> *
> As far as I can recall, throughout the whole original trilogy, Vader only ever saw R2D2 when he was in the back of Luke's X-Wing, and he never laid eyes on C3P0 at all.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but...
> 
> - Sir Bob. *




Sure he did, in _Empire_.  The carbon freeze chamber, when Threepio was hanging from Chewbacca's back.  Not that it really matters...  Threepio's name wasn't mentioned, so there's no reason Vader would think it was the droid he built as a child, unless MAYBE he recognized the voice.  And somehow I doubt that all protocol driods have unique voices.


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## Corinth (May 19, 2002)

Until Ep3 comes along to say otherwise, there is no protocal droid that acts or sounds as prissy as C3PO does.


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## Ristamar (May 19, 2002)

Um.....  ok.


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## MythandLore (May 19, 2002)

Crothian said:
			
		

> *How else does Obi Wan forget about him and 3PO by episode 4?   *



He barely saw him in EpII, and will probably do the same in EpIII


			
				nameless said:
			
		

> *The only burning question is how DOESN'T Vader know where his children, his wife, his droids, and his former master are living at the beginning of Ep IV...*



He thinks they are on Naboo when it is destroyed in Ep.III?


			
				Ristamar said:
			
		

> *Sure he did, in Empire.  The carbon freeze chamber, when Threepio was hanging from Chewbacca's back.  Not that it really matters...  Threepio's name wasn't mentioned, so there's no reason Vader would think it was the droid he built as a child, unless MAYBE he recognized the voice.  And somehow I doubt that all protocol driods have unique voices. *



Didn't 3po sees another droid like himself in EpV while in cloud city right before he is destroyed by the Stormtroopers?


			
				Corinth said:
			
		

> *Until Ep3 comes along to say otherwise, there is no protocal droid that acts or sounds as prissy as C3PO does. *



Wasn't there a sissy one at the begining of EpI?


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## Jerrid Al-Kundo (May 19, 2002)

Okay, I don't have a copy of Episode IV with me (yes, I probably am a heathen), but isn't Obi-Wan rather casual in his conversation with R2D2 when they first encounter each other while Luke's still rendered unconcious?  He even understood what R2D2 was chirping...


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## Snoweel (May 19, 2002)

Duncan Haldane said:
			
		

> *During EpII I was wondering how come Luke never noticed a certain gravestone at the farm he grew up on mentioning a very familiar name... *




Shmi Lars?

What's so familiar about that?

It's the name of his uncle Owen's stepmother.

How would he have known that she was his grandmother too?

(Aren't the Lars/Skywalkers starting to sound like a bunch of hillbillies?)


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## Hand of Vecna (May 19, 2002)

*a thought occurs...*

Has anyone else considered the possibility that Coruscant becomes the first Death Star? I mean, it's already heavily-industrialized, and I noticed at the end when Dooku came to Coruscant a large section of the planet that looked like it could be a "Planet-Buster" cannon....

I don't _think_ Coruscant was mention in SW, tESB, or RotJ....


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## Snoweel (May 19, 2002)

I'm pretty sure it wasn't.

Coruscant is a planet and teh Death Star isn't anywhere *near* that big.

And I'm sure Coruscant is in the canon stories after RotJ.


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## hong (May 19, 2002)

*Re: How many times do I have to tell you people....*



			
				333 Dave said:
			
		

> *Darth Vader is Anakin Skywalker's CLONE! Think about it, if you were making a clone army, would you leave un-cloned the Chosen One? I mean, just in case you couldn't turn him yourself, you'd want a back up or two. Who knows, maybe there were a dozen Vaders at one point and after a while Palpatine didn't need them all anymore, so he let them all kill each other and let the best one be his right hand.
> *




Or perhaps they're replicants.

I can see it now, in Episode 3: The clone soldiers that featured so prominently in Ep 2 have transmogrified into an endless, unstoppable army of faceless stormtroopers. Anakin leads them, confident that, as the Chosen One and with great Force powers, he is far above the replicants he uses to fulfil his plans, who aren't even human. In the middle of the film, he has a strange, disturbing dream where he sees a unicorn running in a field. He shrugs this off, but the scene gains its true meaning at the film's conclusion, where we see Palpatine toying with an origami sculpture of a unicorn. The clear implication is that Anakin/Vader, like the stormtroopers he leads, is also a replicant.

It'll make millions.


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## SableWyvern (May 19, 2002)

*Re: a thought occurs...*



			
				Hand of Vecna said:
			
		

> *Has anyone else considered the possibility that Coruscant becomes the first Death Star? I mean, it's already heavily-industrialized, and I noticed at the end when Dooku came to Coruscant a large section of the planet that looked like it could be a "Planet-Buster" cannon....
> 
> I don't think Coruscant was mention in SW, tESB, or RotJ.... *




Coruscant wasn't mentioned in IV - VI, but it does appear in the celebration scenes at the end of Jedi Spec. Ed.


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## Snoweel (May 19, 2002)

That's what I thought.

The scene where they're pushing that big statue over, right?


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## Zarrock God of Evil (May 19, 2002)

It has been wellknown SW canon that Coruscant is the Capital world of the Empire (and the Old and New Republic) since long before Episode I. 

-Zarrock


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## Mistwell (May 20, 2002)

*Re: Re: How many times do I have to tell you people....*



			
				hong said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Or perhaps they're replicants.
> 
> ...




Wouldn't Lucas need to bring Harrison Ford back for that one? As long as Daryl Hannah doesn't play Amidala, I'll be fine with it.


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## Tom Cashel (May 20, 2002)

*Re: Re: How many times do I have to tell you people....*



			
				hong said:
			
		

> *
> In the middle of the film, he has a strange, disturbing dream where he sees a unicorn running in a field. He shrugs this off, but the scene gains its true meaning at the film's conclusion, where we see Palpatine toying with an origami sculpture of a unicorn. The clear implication is that Anakin/Vader, like the stormtroopers he leads, is also a replicant.
> *




"Too bad she won't live.  But then again, who does?"


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## shadoe (May 20, 2002)

In Return of the Jedi, Luke asks Leia if she can remember her mother, who she can remember impressions of. So maybe Anakin dosn't kill Padme or at least not for a couple of years after the children are born.


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## ForceUser (May 20, 2002)

My guess is Padme isn't killed, but goes into exile somewhere far from the twins. What I want to know is, how is Vader aware that he had a son, but not a daughter?


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## Corinth (May 21, 2002)

It could be that, due to Obi-Wan's bare-assed training in Ep.4, Luke is sufficiently Force-Sensitive to set off Anakin's Jedidar while Leia remains mostly insensitive until the EU expansions set after ROTJ.


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## Henry (May 21, 2002)

Actually, I am of the opinion (as one poster over at the Wizards boards) that Vader finds out the identity of the hot-shot pilot who blew up the death star over the course of the next 3 years, and puts two and two together.


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