# Mythological Figures: Conan the Barbarian (5E)



## Ymdar (Oct 22, 2018)

I wouldn't say Conan is "Mythological" per se but I understand this is the name of the column. Otherwise I like it.


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## epithet (Oct 22, 2018)

First off, Conan has transcended the fiction of Howard and become a legend expressed and interpreted by multiple creators across just about every type of media. He's totally mythological.

Second, while I understand the appeal of giving Conan the Barbarian at least one level of the barbarian class, I don't know that I would. Yes, he should be effective without armor, and yes his Con should be high, but I would suggest that his Wis score should be just as high when building Conan for D&D 5e. His wisdom (survival) ability checks are as prominent as his critical successes on death saving throws, and we all must remember fondly seeing Arnold getting slapped around by a disapproving master of Eastern swordsmanship. I would say that level should be in the monk class, not in barbarian.


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## Sacrosanct (Oct 22, 2018)

Sorry, but no.  I don't know why people insist on giving a fictional hero a half dozen classes. I blame 1e with Deities and Demigods for starting that lol.  In a rigid system like 1e where in order to replicate certain abilities you kinda had to multiclass, you don't need that in 5e.  There is no reason why Conan would have all of those classes.  You can do Conan with just a fighter, outlander background, and skill choices.  Things like remarkable athlete justifies his better than average ability to do thiefing stuff.  Outlander background makes him a barbarian by culture (no need for the class) so that works.  Etc, etc. 

Also, people tend to way over inflate the levels.  He doesn't need to be 16th level.  A 5th level PC is heroic compared to the rest of the people in the world they live in.  So look at what he did and who he beat to give a reference.  Everything he accomplished could have been done by about 10th level tops.  Most literary fictional characters are not sure high level.  Reminds me of that old Dragon article: Gandalf was a 5th level magic user


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## Mike Myler (Oct 22, 2018)

Sacrosanct said:


> Sorry, but no.  I don't know why people insist on giving a fictional hero a half dozen classes. I blame 1e with Deities and Demigods for starting that lol.  In a rigid system like 1e where in order to replicate certain abilities you kinda had to multiclass, you don't need that in 5e.  There is no reason why Conan would have all of those classes.  You can do Conan with just a fighter, outlander background, and skill choices.  Things like remarkable athlete justifies his better than average ability to do thiefing stuff.  Outlander background makes him a barbarian by culture (no need for the class) so that works.  Etc, etc.
> 
> Also, people tend to way over inflate the levels.  He doesn't need to be 16th level.  A 5th level PC is heroic compared to the rest of the people in the world they live in.  So look at what he did and who he beat to give a reference.  Everything he accomplished could have been done by about 10th level tops.  Most literary fictional characters are not sure high level.  Reminds me of that old Dragon article: Gandalf was a 5th level magic user




Maybe so but _Mythological Figures_ has its own continuity that I strive to keep intact -- the only 20th level build is Thor, King Arthur cruises in at 19 (this is a site based in the UK  ), and one of the comparable level builds is Joan of Arc at 15th. Would you say Conan is on par with her?


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## Sacrosanct (Oct 22, 2018)

Mike Myler said:


> Maybe so but _Mythological Figures_ has its own continuity that I strive to keep intact -- the only 20th level build is Thor, King Arthur cruises in at 19 (this is a site based in the UK  ), and one of the comparable level builds is Joan of Arc at 15th. Would you say Conan is on par with her?




I'd say Joan of Arc shouldn't be anywhere near level 15 if asked   Maybe level 5.  Fighter, acolyte background, inspiring leader feat, high Charisma, prof in persuasion.  That's pretty much it.


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## epithet (Oct 22, 2018)

Sacrosanct said:


> I'd say Joan of Arc shouldn't be anywhere near level 15 if asked   Maybe level 5.  Fighter, acolyte background, inspiring leader feat, high Charisma, prof in persuasion.  That's pretty much it.




I'd make Joan a barbarian, path of the ancestral guardian. Instead of ancestor spirits, call them angels. Instead of rage, call it "Holy Spirit." The whole thing with Joan was that she had no training in combat, it just came to her through divine inspiration.


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## Jay Verkuilen (Oct 22, 2018)

Sacrosanct said:


> Sorry, but no.  I don't know why people insist on giving a fictional hero a half dozen classes. I blame 1e with Deities and Demigods for starting that lol.  In a rigid system like 1e where in order to replicate certain abilities you kinda had to multiclass, you don't need that in 5e.  There is no reason why Conan would have all of those classes.  You can do Conan with just a fighter, outlander background, and skill choices.  Things like remarkable athlete justifies his better than average ability to do thiefing stuff.  Outlander background makes him a barbarian by culture (no need for the class) so that works.  Etc, etc.




Conan's thiefly abilities are most due to his incredible climbing, high perception, and decent stealth. He's not a lockpicker or pickpocket. I agree he doesn't really need Rogue levels, or at least not many.  

However, one issue that 5E maintains from 1E is how niche-protected and generally limited characters are. This makes sense for a game that's designed to be played by a group of four or five people, but Conan---and most literary figures of the pulp era---is a solo act, or occasionally teamed up in a duo. Even the more human-scale Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser were a duo and both are clearly much more competent than most characters would be at too many things. 

D&D has never really done that well (by design), hence leading to inflated-seeming builds when people try to make characters that emulate fiction. Conan was definitely a skill monkey at least in some areas, and that's hard to build if you also want him to be able to kick serious hind end in melee, which he clearly does in the source material. However, D&D tends to make doing both tough. 



> Also, people tend to way over inflate the levels.  He doesn't need to be 16th level.  A 5th level PC is heroic compared to the rest of the people in the world they live in.




Obviously it depends on how you put most other people or threats. 




> So look at what he did and who he beat to give a reference.  Everything he accomplished could have been done by about 10th level tops.  Most literary fictional characters are not sure high level.




Not to sound like I'm arguing both sides of the issue , but it should be noted Conan is an unreliable narrator in the REH material. Furthermore, the stories are clearly exaggerated by retelling---as they are from the Nemedian Chronicles told long after Conan is alive---so to no small degree I think we should discount what's said about him. 

I'm a big fan of the Modiphius game and they have several builds for him, some really inflated and others much more reasonable. 




> Reminds me of that old Dragon article: Gandalf was a 5th level magic user




Or an 8th level cleric. Truly that is one of the stupidest articles written about the game ever, although obviously it was meant to be tongue in cheek. 

Gandalf does all sorts of amazing things, but most of them are off-screen or only viewed from afar and overall the implied magic system of Middle Earth is overall much less flashy than D&D's. He drives off a group of Nazgul on Weathertop. Later on he single-handedly kills one of the legendary horrors of the First Age, a balrog, which destroyed the Dwarves of Durin's realm. Obviously that needs to be gauged with respects to the threats he faced, but neither a 5th level wizard nor an 8th level cleric feels sufficient for those tasks.


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## BookBarbarian (Oct 22, 2018)

I'm in the camp that thinks Conan has no rogue levels, In no depiction of him ever have I seen him use Thieves tools.

Conan is a successful thief, but that's because he is stealthy and athletic. athletic to a degree beyond what any other human can pull off in his setting. All stemming from having to survive a childhood in the harshness of Cimmeria.

A class that can boost  Athletics, Nature, Perception, Stealth     or Survival like the Fighter Scout would be great representation of Conan's skillset, at least the ones he grew up with. scout also gets you Natural explore saving you that single level of Ranger.

As an adult, Conan doesn't learn any knew physical abilities. what he becomes more adept at is leading men in battle. As such I think prioritizing Cha of Int is the way to go. Conan isn't dumb, but he spends far more time leading armies, pirates, etc into battle than learning history.

As for whether Conan has an Barbarian levels, in past editions I would say no, in 5th Edition maybe.

Conan certainly presents more savage ferocity than any other human being in any of his adventures. even the Picts he out-savages. In Phoenix in the sword he battles a score of trained warriors on his own even when he hadn't finished completely donning his armor, and REH is very clear that it's because he has a savagery no civilized man could match. It's a very good in narrative description for Rage IMHO.

The problem is that while the base class Barbarian abilities (like damage reduction, bonus damage to melee attacks made with strength, increased accuracy with melee attacks made with strength, faster movement, advantage on initiative, and advantage on Dex saves) actually fit Conan quite well, no Barbarian subclass fits him very well at all.

Full Barbarian could fit if you go Tiger totem, and refluff the ritual spells into something non-magical. Conan's prowess is often compared to a great cat.

Edit: A Zealot's level 10 ability is actually pretty good fit for a Leader type Barbarian, and the level 6 ability is great too, but you need to lose the Warrior of the gods stuff. Crom doesn't lift a finger to help anybody.

I'd personally represent him as a Barbarian 2/ Fighter Scout X. Str > Con > Dex = Wis > Cha > Int for stats.


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## BookBarbarian (Oct 22, 2018)

Jay Verkuilen said:


> Or an 8th level cleric. Truly that is one of the stupidest articles written about the game ever, although obviously it was meant to be tongue in cheek.
> 
> Gandalf does all sorts of amazing things, but most of them are off-screen or only viewed from afar and overall the implied magic system of Middle Earth is overall much less flashy than D&D's. He drives off a group of Nazgul on Weathertop. Later on he single-handedly kills one of the legendary horrors of the First Age, a balrog, which destroyed the Dwarves of Durin's realm. Obviously that needs to be gauged with respects to the threats he faced, but neither a 5th level wizard nor an 8th level cleric feels sufficient for those tasks.




If you stat Gandalf as an NPC instead of a PC (and I think you should) a full CR 10 Deva plus 5 levels of your favorite casting class works quite well.

Edit: The true error lies in trying to base his levels off of just what spells he is shown to cast (which I think is foolish.)


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## Jay Verkuilen (Oct 22, 2018)

BookBarbarian said:


> If you stat Gandalf as an NPC instead of a PC (and I think you should) a full CR 10 Deva plus 5 levels of your favorite casting class works quite well.




I totally agree Gandalf should be an NPC. Whether the five levels of caster would work... not sure. It's just really important to note that many things that are considered not at all exceptional in D&D magic are non-existent in Middle Earth. Fast travel, for instance, is very rare. 

The rest of the Fellowship are tolerably well modeled by D&D stats but Gandalf is just on a different level. Over on Cubicle 7's _AIME_ forum someone worked out the numbers for Legolas and Gimli's orc-killing contest at Helm's Deep and they come out as being around 12th to 14th level fighters as I recall. Boromir is also around there in terms of his described deeds. Recall he single-handedly kills a pretty large number of orcs defending the hobbits before he gets killed himself right after he attempts to take the Ring from Frodo at Parth Galen. That made sense to me. They are all clearly pretty nasty combatants and the respective heroes of their peoples. Aragorn is a bit more challenging but he too comes out more or less in that range, maybe a bit higher than the others. The hobbits start out lower level, but certainly Merry and Pippin are both capable warriors by the end of the story. 

Keep in mind that these levels are assuming a general lack of force multipliers like area effect death or other control magic, which is nearly completely absent in most tales. Control magic makes a _huge _difference.


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## BookBarbarian (Oct 22, 2018)

Jay Verkuilen said:


> I totally agree Gandalf should be an NPC. Whether the five levels of caster would work... not sure. It's just really important to note that many things that are considered not at all exceptional in D&D magic are non-existent in Middle Earth. Fast travel, for instance, is very rare.
> 
> The rest of the Fellowship are tolerably well modeled by D&D stats but Gandalf is just on a different level. Over on Cubicle 7's _AIME_ forum someone worked out the numbers for Legolas and Gimli's orc-killing contest at Helm's Deep and they come out as being around 12th to 14th level fighters as I recall. Boromir is also around there in terms of his described deeds. Recall he single-handedly kills a pretty large number of orcs defending the hobbits before he gets killed himself right after he attempts to take the Ring from Frodo at Parth Galen. That made sense to me. They are all clearly pretty nasty combatants and the respective heroes of their peoples. Aragorn is a bit more challenging but he too comes out more or less in that range, maybe a bit higher than the others. The hobbits start out lower level, but certainly Merry and Pippin are both capable warriors by the end of the story.
> 
> Keep in mind that these levels are assuming a general lack of force multipliers like area effect death or other control magic, which is nearly completely absent in most tales. Control magic makes a _huge _difference.




Oh I miss those AiME forums, and yeah I completely agree about most of those level ranges. Gimli and Legolas while older wouldn't have quite the combat experience Boromor did, being on the "front lines" as he was. Aragorn has more travel experience than any of them, and was a victorious captain of Rohan and Gondor for about as much time as Boromir was back in the days of Boromir's grandfather. So I'd definitely stay he had the highest level.

The hobbits start out well pretty much at level 1, but think they all level up to around 5 or 6 by the end of the trilogy.

You could just give a Gandalf Deva spells according to what he cast in the books and not have any class levels on him at all. That would probably be most accurate.

However, we digress for sure.


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## Jay Verkuilen (Oct 22, 2018)

BookBarbarian said:


> Oh I miss those AiME forums, and yeah I completely agree about most of those level ranges. Gimli and Legolas while older wouldn't have quite the combat experience Boromor did, being on the "front lines" as he was.




Hard to say. Gimli is described as having been too young for the Lonely Mountain expedition, but he's no pushover. Legolas clearly saw a lot of action over the years, too, Mirkwood not exactly being safe. However, Boromir had a whole lot of recent action. 



> Aragorn has more travel experience than any of them,




Really than anyone except Gandalf. He describes going so far south the stars become strange! 



> and was a victorious captain of Rohan and Gondor for about as much time as Boromir was back in the days of Boromir's grandfather. So I'd definitely stay he had the highest level.




100%. If we go with the lower end for Gimli, Legolas, and Boromir of, say, around 11th level, and higher for Aragorn of, say, 16h level, when the Fellowship leaves Rivendell that probably comes out in the right ballpark. Eomer and Eowyn are also clearly pretty tough as well and, more broadly, the Riders of Rohan are serious badasses. They totally roll a large band of orcs with minimal losses in _The Two Towers_, for instance. 




> The hobbits start out well pretty much at level 1, but think they all level up to around 5 or 6 by the end of the trilogy.




Tricky to say, but something like that, certainly low. I think Frodo is probably a bit higher than the others at the start, but most of his experience is as a Scholar (in _AIME _terms, with no direct parallel in 5E proper). Almost all advancement he does is in the realm of improving his willpower. Even then it's not enough. 



> However, we digress for sure.




It fits the general theme of "how does one stat out figures from myth or literature?" which I think is on topic. In many respects, I feel that there's always bound to be some gap between what makes for a good set of game stats and literary sources. Authors are much freer to dial protagonists' abilities up or down as suits their dramatic need.


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## BookBarbarian (Oct 22, 2018)

Oh and Conan would only wear Hide Armor at a very young age, He'd be in a Chain Shirt or Breastplate as soon as he came across one or the other.


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## Jay Verkuilen (Oct 22, 2018)

BookBarbarian said:


> Oh and Conan would only wear Hide Armor at a very young age, He'd be in a Chain Shirt or Breastplate as soon as he came across one or the other.




Yup. Another aspect of Conan is how dispensable gear is for him. He often starts and/or ends stories with nothing but a loin cloth!


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## dave2008 (Oct 22, 2018)

Conan is a tough one and I think you did a pretty good job.  I also like [MENTION=6802553]BookBarbarian[/MENTION]'s take.  Conan is also a good fit for a high level NPC as his a long and stored list of adventures and incredible accomplishments that map onto a high level character pretty well.  I do think Conan, if anyone, would probably have a strength of 20 though.  He always seems to be the strongest.


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## dave2008 (Oct 22, 2018)

Sacrosanct said:


> Sorry, but no.  I don't know why people insist on giving a fictional hero a half dozen classes. I blame 1e with Deities and Demigods for starting that lol.  In a rigid system like 1e where in order to replicate certain abilities you kinda had to multiclass, you don't need that in 5e.  There is no reason why Conan would have all of those classes.  You can do Conan with just a fighter, outlander background, and skill choices.  Things like remarkable athlete justifies his better than average ability to do thiefing stuff.  Outlander background makes him a barbarian by culture (no need for the class) so that works.  Etc, etc.
> 
> Also, people tend to way over inflate the levels.  He doesn't need to be 16th level.  A 5th level PC is heroic compared to the rest of the people in the world they live in.  So look at what he did and who he beat to give a reference.  Everything he accomplished could have been done by about 10th level tops.  Most literary fictional characters are not sure high level.  Reminds me of that old Dragon article: Gandalf was a 5th level magic user




Possibly, but if your going to do it, Conan is a good pick for multiclassing based on everything he does in the books. The rage ability is very representative of how he acts in many stories and he was an exceptional fighter.  I might have suggested battlemaster instead of champion, but I get that choices as well.  So I think barbarian abd fighter make sense.  You could probably do without rogue.  But it is not the end of the world.  I think this build is quite good actually at representing Conan at an advanced stage in his career.

I also think Conan is a good choice for a high level character.  He killed two frost giants by himself and adventured into his 60s after all!  His breadth and depth of adventures covers more than the typical 1-20 lvl campaign I would wager.


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## BookBarbarian (Oct 22, 2018)

dave2008 said:


> Conan is a tough one and I think you did a pretty good job.  I also like [MENTION=6802553]BookBarbarian[/MENTION]'s take.  Conan is also a good fit for a high level NPC as his a long and stored list of adventures and incredible accomplishments that map onto a high level character pretty well.  I do think Conan, if anyone, would probably have a strength of 20 though.  He always seems to be the strongest.




Indeed. Conan never encounters a Human stronger than himself. Maybe a few that are as strong, but never outright stronger. So if you have Conan is at 18, than that's pretty much the limit of the setting.

16 for a level one teen Conan is pretty reasonable.

Also there's a sweet Athletics contest in Shadows in Zamboula where Baal-Pteor the strangler is trying to strangle Conan (and nearly does so) but Conan snaps Baal-Pteor's neck first. Saying that you aren't a man in Cimmeria until you can snap a bullocks neck with your bare hands.

Cimmeria sounds like the kind of place where if you didn't role good stats, you don't survive.


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## BookBarbarian (Oct 22, 2018)

dave2008 said:


> I also think Conan is a good choice for a high level character.  He killed two frost giants by himself and adventured into his 60s after all!  His breadth and depth of adventures covers more than the typical 1-20 lvl campaign I would wager.




I think so too. There's not much in a high level non-spellcasting character that wouldn't be out of place for Conan.

Except maybe falling from the stratosphere and surviving shenanigans.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Oct 23, 2018)

Gandalf is a 5th level magic-user, so I think Conan as a 3rd level fighting-man is about right.


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## The Crimson Binome (Oct 23, 2018)

You're trying to use 5E language to describe a character who clearly doesn't operate by 5E rules, and who lives in a world that doesn't operate by 5E rules. It's like you're taking Conan, from how he existed in the stories, and porting him to 5E without regard for what Conan would have looked like if he had been a 5E native. That's why he looks so weird, and he has such weird stats and abilities. They are things that only make sense under his native ruleset.

Unfortunately, when you put him in that light, it really ruins his reputation. This Conan lacks the fundamental trait that Conan had in the stories, which is competence. Looking at this write-up from the perspective of how we know the 5E world operates, he seems like kind of a chump, compared to what a character with his experience should be capable of. I'm not saying that you should change the format of these articles or anything, but it would be far more useful to have a stat block for a Conan who captured the essence of the character within the 5E ruleset, rather than in contrast to it.


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## cbwjm (Oct 23, 2018)

I'm just going to add my voice to Conan having no rogue levels. In the books I've read, he doesn't really do much in the way of finesse in opening things. If a chest has a lock on it, he cleaves it with his sword, if the door is looked he "picks the lock" by kicking the door down.

I'd probably run with straight barbarian, I think berserker fits best for him. I could also see having a few fighter levels.

The ranger level is interesting and I could see that fitting him for the various survivability skills the ranger brings.


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## Jay Verkuilen (Oct 23, 2018)

Saelorn said:


> You're trying to use 5E language to describe a character who clearly doesn't operate by 5E rules, <...> This Conan lacks the fundamental trait that Conan had in the stories, which is competence.  <...> but it would be far more useful to have a stat block for a Conan who captured the essence of the character within the 5E ruleset, rather than in contrast to it.




Unfortunately I think that's a big part of the problem. 

Conan, like many literary or legendary characters, id just too broadly competent in a lot of ways to work as a 5E character, unless, I suppose he's markedly higher level than everyone around him or the DM shifts the system to accommodate. Conan's basically a one man band but D&D's _explicitly_ set up to avoid characters like that and provide an experience for a party of four or five peers fairly specialized in their niches. It's really quite difficult to make a character like Conan in any version of D&D. 5E is probably the easiest but even so. I've played other games that work better for two to three players, and indeed have played and run lots of D&D with a smaller group, but you really have to work and go outside the usual confines and assumptions built into D&D.


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## Jay Verkuilen (Oct 23, 2018)

cbwjm said:


> I'm just going to add my voice to Conan having no rogue levels. In the books I've read, he doesn't really do much in the way of finesse in opening things. If a chest has a lock on it, he cleaves it with his sword, if the door is looked he "picks the lock" by kicking the door down.




Rogue would have the benefit of being a straightforward way to give him really high Athletics and Perception via Expertise but I agree he pretty clearly traded off Thieves' Tools for something else. (IMO Thieves' Tools probably should be a regular skill anyway.) Conan's thieving is mostly due to him being an awesome second story man.


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## TrippyHippy (Oct 23, 2018)

Could you stat out Thrud The Barbarian next?


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## Arnwolf666 (Oct 23, 2018)

barbarian (berserker) 6 ranger (hunter) 1 rogue (thief) 3 fighter (champion) 11

background outlander

str 20 dex 20 con 20 int 16 wis 18 cha 20

go ahead hate me. but i am a total fanboy. i cant help myself lol. read all of howard’s works and loved Roy Thomas’s writing in the comics. but howard is the best. just glad other people love the character also


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## ad_hoc (Oct 23, 2018)

Sacrosanct said:


> Also, people tend to way over inflate the levels.  He doesn't need to be 16th level.  A 5th level PC is heroic compared to the rest of the people in the world they live in.  So look at what he did and who he beat to give a reference.  Everything he accomplished could have been done by about 10th level tops.  Most literary fictional characters are not sure high level.  Reminds me of that old Dragon article: Gandalf was a 5th level magic user




Yeah, this.

11-16 is when the party is fighting threats to entire planes.
17+ is threats to the multiverse.

Granted I haven't read the books, but is that really what is going on?

Tier 2 is where most of our great heroes stories are.

If we want to find stories of characters of 11-16 we're looking at Hercules and the like, demi-gods.


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## Mike Myler (Oct 23, 2018)

Oy! 

I didn't realize that chain shirts and breastplates were commonplace in the Hyborian Age. I've updated his statblock so he's got decent armor (along with a commensurate CR oomph to 10).

Conan's Competency - The only thing he doesn't have _some_ bonus for are Charisma checks and saving throws. For everything else he's got a bonus (getting doubled in his favorite terrain) and when he doesn't directly have a proficiency bonus on a physical check he's got an extra +2. He's also faster than almost all other rogues (because mobile) and can out sprint a horse. Also he can outjump everyone but a monk. And takes half damage from weapons. This guy is crazy competent. 

Three Scales - If you've not read this column before that's cool--check out all the other entries! When you don't find somebody you _want_ to see, comment and I'll add them to the list. Thrud the Barbarian is copyrighted and not in the public  domain so he doesn't qualify but as long as we're legally allowed to do it I'll add them to the queue. 
*Each of the characters in Mythological Figures has three things going on behind it:**1)* Built RAW (or as close to rules as written as possible).
*2)* Expresses the character as well as the system can manage.
*3)* Is useful to GMs and fun to field against a party of adventurers.​We could just point to the Gladiator NPC and add X, Y, and Z, but that's ultimately not going to feel like the party is facing off against a _Mythological Figure_, right? Even if it's just that you've got a page with plenty of text on it behind the GM screen, there's a noticeable impact when the character gets a full sheet. There's a certain lack of depth with the (awesome, quick) scratched-off-serial-numbers design tack, and when built like a PC that character will feel like they have more weight (probably with some traits or features that may not be 100% necessary but--see #1).


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## dave2008 (Oct 23, 2018)

Saelorn said:


> You're trying to use 5E language to describe a character who clearly doesn't operate by 5E rules, and who lives in a world that doesn't operate by 5E rules. It's like you're taking Conan, from how he existed in the stories, and porting him to 5E without regard for what Conan would have looked like if he had been a 5E native. That's why he looks so weird, and he has such weird stats and abilities. They are things that only make sense under his native ruleset.
> 
> Unfortunately, when you put him in that light, it really ruins his reputation. This Conan lacks the fundamental trait that Conan had in the stories, which is competence. Looking at this write-up from the perspective of how we know the 5E world operates, he seems like kind of a chump, compared to what a character with his experience should be capable of. I'm not saying that you should change the format of these articles or anything, but it would be far more useful to have a stat block for a Conan who captured the essence of the character within the 5E ruleset, rather than in contrast to it.




I actually think this build does a pretty good job of translating Conan to 5e.  Everyone will a different opinion about a few things, but this is a good start.  I see nothing here that ruins him.  The only issue in my eyes would be if you have other high level characters running around, and that is a setting thing.


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## Phasestar (Oct 23, 2018)

It's a pretty good take on Conan, but I think he pretty clearly has "rolled" stats above the norm, so where his stats end up here is a bit low in my opinion, while the classes seem about right to me.  For these mythological characters, including someone like Conan who starts in Hyboria, is an adventure, a thief and a soldier and ends up as a King, it's ok to boost the stats well beyond the standard PHB build.


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## Sacrosanct (Oct 23, 2018)

dave2008 said:


> I also think Conan is a good choice for a high level character.  He killed two frost giants by himself and adventured into his 60s after all!  His breadth and depth of adventures covers more than the typical 1-20 lvl campaign I would wager.




Howard's frost giants are NOT D&D frost giants, so you can't use that as a metric to decided what level he would be.  Those frost giants were barely bigger than he was, and were only called "frost" giants because they happened to live in the snow.  Totally different than D&D's frost giants.

And while he went on many adventures, over the course of his entire campaign written by Howard, he killed less monsters than most D&D PCs do in a single adventure


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## Quartz (Oct 23, 2018)

TrippyHippy said:


> Could you stat out Thrud The Barbarian next?




For stats, I'm thinking around Str 20 Con 20 Int 4 Wis 4 Dex 16 Cha 11.


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## Jay Verkuilen (Oct 23, 2018)

Sacrosanct said:


> Howard's frost giants are NOT D&D frost giants, so you can't use that as a metric to decided what level he would be.  Those frost giants were barely bigger than he was, and were only called "frost" giants because they happened to live in the snow.  Totally different than D&D's frost giants.




Agreed, they're probably more like ogres. 




> And while he went on many adventures, over the course of his entire campaign written by Howard, he killed less monsters than most D&D PCs do in a single adventure




Um... not sure about that. For instance in "Queen of the Black Coast" he rolls through a horde of pirates by himself when he first meets Belit. Furthermore, Conan is largely a solo act, occasionally a duo, in a world that largely lacks control magic. For example, early in his career in "Tower of the Elephant" he and Taurus fight the lions that Yara has as guardians. There are quite a number... I forget how many. In 5E, lions are CR1 but they would be very difficult for a small group due to their speed, relatively high offense, and pack tactics. According to Kobold Fight Club this would be a "Deadly" encounter for a band of two 5th level adventurers but "Medium" for a band of two 8th level adventurers. "Medium" feels more right given the description... of course, this math is quite loose and would depend greatly on the builds. The fight with the spider is much worse, although partly that's because Taurus gets killed and Conan is alone. 

IMO one of the best ways to avoid too much "Conan inflation" is to consider him to be an unreliable narrator to start with and then realize that his tales are actually related in the Nemedian Chronicles and thus are likely to have gotten much bigger in the retelling.


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## dave2008 (Oct 23, 2018)

Sacrosanct said:


> Howard's frost giants are NOT D&D frost giants, so you can't use that as a metric to decided what level he would be.  Those frost giants were barely bigger than he was, and were only called "frost" giants because they happened to live in the snow.  Totally different than D&D's frost giants.




I don't know:  "Conan saw the remaining giant looming high above him like a colossus carved of ice, etched against the cold glowing sky. "  That doesn't seem to be barely bigger than he was.  Maybe not 5e frost giant size, but still pretty darn big.  That is really the only description of the size of them - which leaves a lot to the imagination - so I don't know why you would assume hey are barely larger than he is.

Also:  "He did not wonder at the strangeness of it all, not even when two gigantic figures rose upto bar his way. The scales of their mail were white with hoar-frost; their helmets and theiraxes were covered with ice. Snow sprinkled their locks; in their beards were spikes oficicles; their eyes were cold as the lights that streamed above them."  That sounds pretty close to a D&D frost giant to me.

It is also important to remember that "The Frost Giant's Daughter" is cronologicaly the oldest story (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conan_chronologies#Dale_Rippke_chronology), and I think Conan is possibly a teenager at this time.  Of course he just finished a battle that took the lives of 80 others (he is the sole survivor) and chase the frost giant's daughter through the snow, before he fights her two brothers.



Sacrosanct said:


> And while he went on many adventures, over the course of his entire campaign written by Howard, he killed less monsters than most D&D PCs do in a single adventure




I am not so sure about that.  While he may  not have killed so many "monsters" he has killed a few (mostly by himself) and hundreds of warriors / soldiers on top of that.  I bet he does pretty well for solo D&D adventurer.


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## Sacrosanct (Oct 23, 2018)

Well, they weren't so huge that he didn't try to have relations with a frost giant woman.  Feasibly.  And for the record, Andre the Giant has been described the same way...


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## dave2008 (Oct 23, 2018)

Sacrosanct said:


> Well, they weren't so huge that he didn't try to have relations with a frost giant woman.  Feasibly.  And for the record, Andre the Giant has been described the same way...




Graphic depictions often indicate the daughter (who is the daughter of Ymir btw) is human sized and her brothers a much larger size (2x at least) .  It is good to note that the Norse giants were not all huge.

The story doesn't say anything abnormal about her size, but it does about her brothers.  So I think it is safe to assume she was, or appeared to be, human sized.  

It is also significant I think that Conan attacked the first giant by cutting through its thigh.  This is not the best choice to attack someone your size (or close to your size), but it does make a lot of sense to attack someone 2x your size in the thigh.  I think one could see these giants in the 11-15' range fairly easily.


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## The Crimson Binome (Oct 23, 2018)

Mike Myler said:


> Conan's Competency - The only thing he doesn't have _some_ bonus for are Charisma checks and saving throws. For everything else he's got a bonus (getting doubled in his favorite terrain) and when he doesn't directly have a proficiency bonus on a physical check he's got an extra +2. He's also faster than almost all other rogues (because mobile) and can out sprint a horse. Also he can outjump everyone but a monk. And takes half damage from weapons. This guy is crazy competent.



He may be broadly competent by the standards of 5E, but he's not very competent by the standards of the novels. In the novels, Conan wins most contests because he's just that much better, but the bonuses he demonstrates here are insufficient compared to the size of the d20; he has a reasonable chance of losing, even in areas where he's nominally superior. It's simply not possibly to build the type of character he's supposed to be.

But I think the worst part is that, being broadly generalized for some amount of competence in many different areas, he's not as good within his areas of expertise as any other fighter of equal experience. A bog standard level 16 barbarian or fighter would turn this Conan into mincemeat.

I guess that's a limitation of the system, though. I don't mean to rain on your parade or anything, but this is just the first time I've really noticed that the character build doesn't live up to the hype.


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## dave2008 (Oct 23, 2018)

Jay Verkuilen said:


> Agreed, they're probably more like ogres.




Maybe, but that is not how he described them:

"He did not wonder at the strangeness of it all, not even when two gigantic figures rose up to bar his way. The scales of their mail were white with hoar-frost; their helmets and theiraxes were covered with ice. Snow sprinkled their locks; in their beards were spikes of icicles; their eyes were cold as the lights that streamed above them." 

and:

"Conan saw the remaining giant looming high above him like a colossus carved of ice, etched against the cold glowing sky. " 

That sounds closer to D&D frost giants than ogres to me.


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## dave2008 (Oct 23, 2018)

Saelorn said:


> He may be broadly competent by the standards of 5E, but he's not very competent by the standards of the novels. In the novels, Conan wins most contests because he's just that much better, but the bonuses he demonstrates here are insufficient compared to the size of the d20; he has a reasonable chance of losing, even in areas where he's nominally superior. It's simply not possibly to build the type of character he's supposed to be.
> 
> But I think the worst part is that, being broadly generalized for some amount of competence in many different areas, he's not as good within his areas of expertise as any other fighter of equal experience. A bog standard level 16 barbarian or fighter would turn this Conan into mincemeat.
> 
> I guess that's a limitation of the system, though. I don't mean to rain on your parade or anything, but this is just the first time I've really noticed that the character build doesn't live up to the hype.




I think what your missing is that in his world, Conan is the only lvl 16 fighting man, period.  The rest are maxing out at 10th level at most.  On top of that - he just rolls really well (maybe he needs the lucky feat) 

EDIT:  he probably rolled above average on his HP too!


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## The Crimson Binome (Oct 23, 2018)

dave2008 said:


> I think what your missing is that in his world, Conan is the only lvl 16 fighting man, period.  The rest are maxing out at 10th level at most.  On top of that - he just rolls really well (maybe he needs the lucky feat)



The problem is that your level is not very significant under Bounded Accuracy, so all of those levels don't let 5E Conan beat low-level characters in arm wrestling or when prowling or anything. Even at climbing, which is apparently his big thing, he still has a significant chance at failing the sort of hard (DC 20) climbing checks that a level 1 character might succeed at. The difference would be much more apparent in something like 3E or 4E, where your level is a larger factor.

In 5E, being Lucky would actually go a long way toward letting him reliably win contests, although it would go against the narrative of him winning through innate superiority.


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## Guest 6801328 (Oct 23, 2018)

I don't really believe D&D is able to model each and every hero from myth or fiction.

Wait, no, let me amend that: I don't really believe D&D is able to model _any_ hero from myth or fiction.

The concept of Conan is as divorced from the rules of D&D as is the concept of Luke Skywalker or Sherlock Holmes or Spiderman.


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## Satyrn (Oct 23, 2018)

Elfcrusher said:


> I don't really believe D&D is able to model each and every hero from myth or fiction.
> 
> Wait, no, let me amend that: I don't really believe D&D is able to model _any_ hero from myth or fiction.
> 
> The concept of Conan is as divorced from the rules of D&D as is the concept of Luke Skywalker or Sherlock Holmes or Spiderman.



Those are easy! 

A sorcerer with a sunblade, a thief with 5 Intelligence, and a er . . . okay I can't do Spidey.


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## Mike Myler (Oct 23, 2018)

Elfcrusher said:


> I don't really believe D&D is able to model each and every hero from myth or fiction.
> 
> Wait, no, let me amend that: I don't really believe D&D is able to model _any_ hero from myth or fiction.
> 
> The concept of Conan is as divorced from the rules of D&D as is the concept of Luke Skywalker or Sherlock Holmes or Spiderman.



Not to put too fine a point on it but I disagree. All of these things can be modeled in 5e and for that matter any simulated system.

https://mikemyler.com/2017/06/04/star-wars-dd-5e/

https://mikemyler.com/2017/06/15/professor-james-moriarty-dd-5e/
(Also see upcoming Savant class on EN5ider for proper Sherlock-ing)

https://mikemyler.com/2017/01/29/hyper-score-marvel-spider-man/


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## Guest 6801328 (Oct 23, 2018)

Mike Myler said:


> Not to put too fine a point on it but I disagree. All of these things can be modeled in 5e and for that matter any simulated system.
> 
> https://mikemyler.com/2017/06/04/star-wars-dd-5e/
> 
> ...




Well, that puts me in a spot.  Not because I think you proved me wrong, but because a quick glance at the first link persuades me that it would take far, far too much time and effort to argue my point.

So I'll leave it that I strongly suspect that while you may have captured a lot of the flavor of those genres, the underlying 5e mechanics just can't support the kind of action/activity that is central to the fiction in each case.  As an example, the original Middle Earth Roleplaying did a fantastic job in the fluff and the depth of the resources they published, but the rules themselves (being, as they were, a recycled rules system and not one built from the ground up to support that setting) did not evoke Middle Earth at all.  I feel the same way about the new Conan game: great fluff and production quality, but underlying mechanics that don't support the setting any more than any other rules would (an opinion which seems to ruffle some feathers around here.)

But, like I said, I'm not so vested in the point that I'm going to read your extensive (and impressive) efforts in order to have an informed argument about these specific examples.


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## dave2008 (Oct 23, 2018)

Saelorn said:


> The problem is that your level is not very significant under Bounded Accuracy, so all of those levels don't let 5E Conan beat low-level characters in arm wrestling or when prowling or anything. Even at climbing, which is apparently his big thing, he still has a significant chance at failing the sort of hard (DC 20) climbing checks that a level 1 character might succeed at. The difference would be much more apparent in something like 3E or 4E, where your level is a larger factor.
> 
> In 5E, being Lucky would actually go a long way toward letting him reliably win contests, although it would go against the narrative of him winning through innate superiority.




Expertise in Athletics would help a lot as well.


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## dave2008 (Oct 23, 2018)

Elfcrusher said:


> I don't really believe D&D is able to model each and every hero from myth or fiction.
> 
> Wait, no, let me amend that: I don't really believe D&D is able to model _any_ hero from myth or fiction.
> 
> The concept of Conan is as divorced from the rules of D&D as is the concept of Luke Skywalker or Sherlock Holmes or Spiderman.




That really depends on what you mean by "model."  I model is not an exact replica and when your dealing with myths, what part of the story are you trying to model anyway?  I think D&D it can model these concepts to a degree, it just depends on each persons personal taste on how well it succeeds.   I think most of Mike's efforts have been fairly interesting and would make interesting NPCs.   I don't agree with all of his choices, but I think he generally gets the flavor right, and to me, that is successfully modeling in the character.

I don't ask D&D to model the real world perfectly, I wouldn't expect it model a fictional one perfectly either.  But it does a good enough job, generally, in both to be understandable and enjoyable.  That is about all I need it to model.


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## BookBarbarian (Oct 23, 2018)

Saelorn said:


> The problem is that your level is not very significant under Bounded Accuracy, so all of those levels don't let 5E Conan beat low-level characters in arm wrestling or when prowling or anything. Even at climbing, which is apparently his big thing, he still has a significant chance at failing the sort of hard (DC 20) climbing checks that a level 1 character might succeed at. The difference would be much more apparent in something like 3E or 4E, where your level is a larger factor.
> 
> In 5E, being Lucky would actually go a long way toward letting him reliably win contests, although it would go against the narrative of him winning through innate superiority.






dave2008 said:


> Expertise in Athletics would help a lot as well.




Expertise in Athletics from say the Prodigy feat, and half a Superiority Dice roll from Fighter scout, and Lucky feat re-rolls and you would have a true Athletics monster (something like +3 to 5 Strength bonus +4 to 12 expertise +4.5 to 6.5 average Superiority dice roll before a re-roll. That well outweighs the swingyness of the d20. oh and possible Advantage from Rage). You know, like Conan.


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## Seramus (Oct 23, 2018)

Olgar Shiverstone said:


> Gandalf is a 5th level magic-user, so I think Conan as a 3rd level fighting-man is about right.



They would have all died to random critical hits long ago.


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## BookBarbarian (Oct 23, 2018)

Right so I went and took a crack at it since there was some positive feedback to my ideas. 

It's more of my interpretation of Howard's Conan as his stuff always sticks in my mind the most, than a more general "mythological" Conan. 

I stuck with the same level Mike chose (really you could drop him to 7 and he'd still feel very Conan like). Honestly the end result is not that different from the OP since Conan is a Strong, Skilled, Wilderness born Warrior and that was covered well by Mike. (I hope you don't mind the imitation )

So with my take he's still Strong, Skilled, Superior, and Savage. He favors medium armor that won't get in the way of stealth, and versatile weapons that he can adapt to any situation.

Mariner covers his time as a Pirate and general athletic ability. Outlander and Barbarian cover his origins and natural instincts with things like Danger Sense. Fighter should be obvious, and Scout gives him rangery wilderness know-how, and superiority at several skills. 14 Fighter and Variant human give enough ASIs to max strength and still pick some real good feats.

I'm not sure what CR he would be though.

*Conan of Cimmmeria*
_Medium humanoid (human), neutral barbarian 2/fighter 14 (scout)_
*
Armor Class* 17 (breastplate+mariner) or 15 (unarmored defense+mariner)
*Hit Points* 134 (2d12+14d10+32)
*Speed *40 ft. *Climb Speed *40 ft. *Swim Speed *40 ft.


*STR*​*DEX*​*CON*​*INT*​*WIS*​*CHA*​20 (+5)​14 (+2)​14 (+2)​8 (-1)​12 (+1)​10 (+0)​
*
Saving Throws* Str +10, Con +7
*Skills *Athletics +15, Insight +6, Intimidation +5, Perception 6, Stealth +7, Survival +6, Smith's Tools +5
*Senses *Passive Perception 16
*Languages *Common, Undercommon (some hyperborean trade language), Thieves’ Cant, Dark Elf Silent (some kind of battle signs). or substitute all non-common languages for various hyperborean languages.


_*Background: Outlander. *_Conan can always recall the general layout of terrain, settlements, and other features around him. Conan can find food and fresh water for himself and up to five other people each day, provided that the land offers berries, small game, water, and so forth.

*Action Surge (1/Short Rest). *Once on his turn, Conan can take an additional action on top of his regular action and a possible bonus action.

_*Feat: Mobile.*_ Conan can Dash through difficult terrain without requiring additional movement. Whenever he makes an attack against a creature, he doesn’t provoke opportunity attacks from that creature until the end of his turn.

_*Feat: Prodigy.*_ Conan gained one skill proficiency (Intimidation), one tool proficiency (Smiths Tools), and fluency in one language (Thieves’ Cant). Conan gains expertise with one skill (Athletics)

_*Feat: Lucky.*_
Conan has 3 luck points. Whenever he makes an attack roll, an ability check, or a saving throw, he can spend one luck point to roll an additional d20. He can choose to spend one of his luck points after he rolls the die, but before the outcome is determined. He chooses which of the d20s is used for the attack roll, ability check, or saving throw. 

He can also spend one luck point when an attack roll is made against him. Roll a d20, and then choose whether the attack uses the attacker's roll or Conan's.

If more than one creature spends a luck point to influence the outcome of a roll, the points cancel each other out; no additional dice are rolled.

Conan regains expended luck points when he finishes a long rest.

_*Feat: Alert.*_ Conan gains the following benefits:


conan can't be surprised while you are conscious.
Conan gains a +5 bonus to initiative.
Other creatures don't gain advantage on attack rolls against Conan as a result of being unseen by him.

_*Fighting Style: Mariner.*_ As long as Conan is not wearing heavy armor or using a shield, he has a swimming speed and a climbing speed equal to his normal speed, and +1    bonus to AC.    

_*Indomitable (2/Long Rest). *_Conan can reroll a saving throw that he fails but must use the new roll.

_*Natural Explorer: Mountains, Forest. *_When Conan makes an Intelligence or Wisdom check related to the forest or mountains, his proficiency bonus (+5) is doubled if he is using a skill that he’s proficient in. While traveling for an hour or more in his favored terrain, Conan gains the following benefits:


Difficult terrain doesn’t slow his group’s travel.
Conan’s group can’t become lost except by magical means.
Even when he is engaged in another activity while traveling (such as foraging, navigating, or tracking), Conan remains alert to danger.
If Conan is traveling alone, he can move stealthily at a normal pace.
When he forages, Conan finds twice as much food as he normally would.
While tracking other creatures, Conan also learns their exact number, their sizes, and how long ago they passed through the area.

_*Rage (2/Long Rest).*_ On his turn, Conan can enter a rage as a bonus action. His rage lasts for 1 minute, ending early if he is knocked unconscious or if his turn ends and he hasn’t either attacked a hostile creature since his last turn or taken damage since then. Conan can also end his rage on his turn as a bonus action. While raging, he gains the following benefits. 


Conan has advantage on Strength checks and Strength saving throws.
When Conan makes a melee weapon attack using Strength, he deals 2 extra damage.
Conan has resistance to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage.


_*Danger Sense*_
Conan has advantage on Dexterity Saving Throws against effects that he can see, such as traps and Spells. To gain this benefit, he can't be Blinded, Deafened, or Incapacitated.

_*Reckless Attack*_
When Conan makes his first Attack on his Turn, he can decide to Attack recklessly. Doing so gives him advantage on melee weapon Attack rolls using Strength during this turn, but Attack rolls against him have advantage until his next turn.

_*Second Wind (1/Short Rest).*_ On his turn, Conan can use a bonus action to regain 1d10+11 hit points.

_*Combat Superiority(4d10/Short Rest).*_ Conan can expend an superiority dice to perform one of the following:

Conan rolls the superiority die and adds half the result to an ability check that uses Athletics, Nature, Perception, Stealth, or Survival.
Conan adds the superiority die to a weapon attack roll.
While wearing light or medium armor, Conan uses his reaction to add the superiority die to her AC, either avoiding the attack or taking half damage from an attack that is still successful.

*ACTIONS
*
*Multiattack.* Conan attacks three times.

*Longsword.* _Melee Weapon Attack:_ +10 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. _Hit:_ 11 (1d10+5) slashing damage.

_*Dagger (2). *Melee or Ranged Weapon Attack: _+10 to hit, reach 5 ft. or range 20/60 ft., one target. _Hit: _7 (1d4+5) piercing damage.

*Longbow.* _Ranged Weapon Attack: _+7 to hit, range 150/600 ft., one target. _Hit:_ 6 (1d8+2) piercing damage.


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## Pauln6 (Oct 23, 2018)

BookBarbarian said:


> Right so I went and took a crack at it since there was some positive feedback to my ideas.
> 
> It's more of my interpretation of Howard's Conan as his stuff always sticks in my mind the most, than a more general "mythological" Conan.
> 
> ...




Yes, I was also thinking the scout playtest might cover some of the issues people mentioned previously.


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## TrippyHippy (Oct 23, 2018)

Quartz said:


> For stats, I'm thinking around Str 20 Con 20 Int 4 Wis 4 Dex 16 Cha 11.




Intelligence looks a little ambitious….


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## Slit518 (Oct 24, 2018)

I once made a Conan character, I didn't give him any classes, I just made him his own unique "_creature._"

I took whatever elements I felt like taking from classes, and giving him whatever stats I felt were appropriate based on his accomplishments and feats.

If I recall correctly, none of his stats were 10 or below.

I gave him Rage because I've seen him rage in "_low-level_" adventures, taking blows that would fell a dozen men, while just hacking through a half-dozen guards or so, with ease.

I've seen him outsmart many a foe.

In fact, Conan uses his smarts quite often, and it is one of his prevailing stats.

His Charisma isn't to be underestimated either.

He's gotten around "_encounters_" with Intimidation; Diplomacy; Charm, etc.

Conan is most certainly a Mary Sue, I will admit it.

Let us not forget Conan becomes king of Aqualonia.

His Strength is his greatest stat, probably a 20.
His Dexterity is quite high, said to be as agile and fast as jungle cats, probably a 16-18.
His Constitution is also quite high, he can take blows, ward of diseases, survive harsh environments, it is probably an 18-20.
Intelligence is reasonable, definitely above average, meets many a challenge with his brains, probably a 14.
Wisdom, maybe the lowest of his stats, but he can be swayed easy for the promise of treasure, but always has a bit of suspicion in his mind, quite possibly a 12.
Charisma is another good stat of Conan, with getting a kingdom, talking his way out of things (_even crazy things where he shouldn't be able to_), and all the women that swoon over him, convincing people to fight with him, he has a decent Charisma, I'd say a 16, maybe an 18 the highest.


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## SMHWorlds (Oct 24, 2018)

I like it. I am not sure its how I would do it, but I like it. What I really like though is the idea the characters might end up crossing swords with Conan. What I mean is, Conan is the protagonist of his stories, the "good guy" even if he is not always a good guy. Will the PCs become allies? Will they remain enemies? Will Conan become a nemesis for the party? The implications all by themselves make this an intriguing idea.


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## Quartz (Oct 24, 2018)

TrippyHippy said:


> Intelligence looks a little ambitious….




Standard humans get +1 to all stats so cannot have a stat as low as 3.


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## S'mon (Oct 24, 2018)

The 5e Barbarian models Conan fine imo.  Certainly better than Fighter. Berserker path probably since it's the least magical. They gave 5e Barbarian a lot of Conan derived abilities like act when surprised and advantage on init plus extreme durability.

Depending on story he is probably mostly in the 7th to 12th level range, maybe 20th in some of the comics.


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## UngeheuerLich (Oct 24, 2018)

I like this incarnation.
I would also do away with thief. Barbarian is a good class. CON 14 seems spot on as he prefers armor to being unarmored. Dex 14 also seems spot on as he is as agile as a tiger.


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## dave2008 (Oct 24, 2018)

S'mon said:


> The 5e Barbarian models Conan fine imo.  Certainly better than Fighter. Berserker path probably since it's the least magical. They gave 5e Barbarian a lot of Conan derived abilities like act when surprised and advantage on init plus extreme durability.
> 
> Depending on story he is probably mostly in the 7th to 12th level range, maybe 20th in some of the comics.




I think Conan needs the extra attacks and action surge of the Fighter to fit what he is in the stories more so than straight Barbarian.


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## Guest 6801328 (Oct 24, 2018)

UngeheuerLich said:


> I like this incarnation.
> I would also do away with thief. Barbarian is a good class. CON 14 seems spot on as he prefers armor to being unarmored. Dex 14 also seems spot on as he is as agile as a tiger.




The problem with that is that he's not just "agile as a tiger" he's more agile than basically anybody he meets, even those he encounters who are primarily agile.  Since in 5e everybody who wants to has 20 dex by level 8, where does that leave Conan?  21 dex?  Likewise he's stronger and tougher than every strong and tough (mortal) opponent he faces.  For example Baal-pteor (the strangler from "The Man-eaters of Zamboula").   And since 20th level barbarians easily get 24 Str and Con, he's got to have higher scores than that.  Which is already a big enough problem, given that an elephant only has strength of 22.  (Or a simpler example is that an Ape has strength 16, which equals pretty much EVERY level 1 fighter and barbarian, and even many clerics and paladins.)

Or how about...crap I can't remember the name of the story...when Conan is dueling a slippery pirate type, and the guy throws a dagger at him.  Conan catches it and throws it back, killing the guy.  So does Conan have at least 3 levels of Monk as well?

The only way to make Conan a PC, following the rules of the game for player characters, is to ignore the details of the stories...which in my mind is abandoning the fiction...or assume/pretend that the stories are exaggerated myth.

Thus, if I really wanted to write up Conan in 5e...a Conan who could do the gonzo things that make the stories so much fun...I'd make him a Legendary NPC.  Give him a bunch of really high stats, a mix of abilities not available to PCs, and some rockin' legendary actions.


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## dave2008 (Oct 24, 2018)

Elfcrusher said:


> The problem with that is that he's not just "agile as a tiger" he's more agile than basically anybody he meets, even those he encounters who are primarily agile.  Since in 5e everybody who wants to has 20 dex by level 8, where does that leave Conan?  21 dex?  Likewise he's stronger and tougher than every strong and tough (mortal) opponent he faces.  For example Baal-pteor (the strangler from "The Man-eaters of Zamboula").   And since 20th level barbarians easily get 24 Str and Con, he's got to have higher scores than that.  Which is already a big enough problem, given that an elephant only has strength of 22.  (Or a simpler example is that an Ape has strength 16, which equals pretty much EVERY level 1 fighter and barbarian, and even many clerics and paladins.)
> 
> Or how about...crap I can't remember the name of the story...when Conan is dueling a slippery pirate type, and the guy throws a dagger at him.  Conan catches it and throws it back, killing the guy.  So does Conan have at least 3 levels of Monk as well?
> 
> ...




That is definitely an option.  However, you could also assume that in the Hyborian age, level 10 is a soft (or hard) cap and most adventurer / soldier types don't even get to level 5..  Then, if Conan is level 16-20, he shines a lot like he does in the books.  With this approach, since nobody is getting Str or Con of 24, Str 20 is fine for Conan.  Even if Baal-pteor is also Str 20, Conan's expertise in Athletics (which is how I would build him) means he wins the strangling match most of the time (if you remember Conan did almost loose that one).

Conan is exceptional, so in 5e I think you have to assume everyone else can't/doesn't make it to his level.  The other option would be stat him as you suggest, as a "monster" not a PC.


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## dave2008 (Oct 24, 2018)

BookBarbarian said:


> I'm not sure what CR he would be though.




I did a quick check and your build is a solid CR 9 without counting indomitable, lucky, second wind, and alert.  I think you are safe to put him at CR 10.


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## BookBarbarian (Oct 24, 2018)

dave2008 said:


> I did a quick check and your build is a solid CR 9 without counting indomitable, lucky, second wind, and alert.  I think you are safe to put him at CR 10.




Nice! Thanks Dave.


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## Guest 6801328 (Oct 25, 2018)

dave2008 said:


> However, you could also assume that in the Hyborian age, level 10 is a soft (or hard) cap and most adventurer / soldier types don't even get to level 5..  Then, if Conan is level 16-20, he shines a lot like he does in the books.




I'd go the opposite way: if you're going to let Conan double the level cap, let him multiclass to 40.  Even Fighter 20/Barbarian 20 starts to look a little more like the real Conan.  All those ASIs/Feats lets him get the sick stats that Conan obviously has.  In fact, he only has to get to Str 16 and Con 16, because they become 20's at Barbarian 20, so now we can also crank up his Dex and Charisma.

Starting with basic stat array, with two bonus stats for human variant:
Str: 15 + 1
Dex: 13 + 1
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 8
Cha: 12

Give him...oh, I don't...Alert feat.

We've then got twelve...count 'em TWELVE...ASIs to play with.

Con to 16
Dex to 16, 18, 20
Cha to 14, 16

Mobile
Prodigy (for expertise in athletics)
Great Weapon Master (more for the bonus attack on crits/kills than for the -5/+10...although that's ok, too)
Shield Master (because sometimes he uses a shield)

Holy moly and we still have 2 more!  We could either keep cranking up his stats, or:

Mage Slayer, because that's totally his style
Lucky, because he's Conan

For subclasses, I guess I'd go Champion and 'Zerker. (Brute, if we're counting UA subclasses.)

Fighting styles would be Dueling and Great Weapon Fighting

So now he's got 440 HP, AC 20 stark naked, gets 4 attacks per round, crits 28% of the time (when using Reckless Attack) and gets 4 dice when he does crit, gets a reaction to attack anybody who attacks him, regenerates health when below 50%, can't get less than 20 on any strength check and averages 27 on athletics checks...plus all the stuff he gets from his feats

It's _starting_ to sound like Conan.

He must be using the optional downtime rules for learning languages.


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## Stalker0 (Oct 25, 2018)

I think people are comparing Conan to "any old Fighter 16" and finding him wanting. Well....that's because Conan is any old Fighter 16. What he does is what a 16th level fighter does before breakfast....that is the epicness of that tier.

Conan is Conan in his world because other fighters of his level just don't exist.

That said, I know a lot of people are questioning his skill competency. So one other extreme way to go would be Rogue 11 / Barb 5. That would give him a lot of skill expertise, and reliable talent....so he is always good on his key skills. He will still have rage and a extra attack for raw damage....and you could use sneak attack on his fists to make him an awesome brawler even without a weapon. If you go with the scout subclass you also can add in a bit of that ranger flavor


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## dave2008 (Oct 25, 2018)

Elfcrusher said:


> I'd go the opposite way: if you're going to let Conan double the level cap, let him multiclass to 40.  Even Fighter 20/Barbarian 20 starts to look a little more like the real Conan.  All those ASIs/Feats lets him get the sick stats that Conan obviously has.  In fact, he only has to get to Str 16 and Con 16, because they become 20's at Barbarian 20, so now we can also crank up his Dex and Charisma.
> 
> Starting with basic stat array, with two bonus stats for human variant:
> Str: 15 + 1
> ...




Well, again that is outside the rules, and Mike wants to keep it as RAW as possible.  Personally, that seems a bit extreme to me.  It is not like he always succeeded at everything..  He failed, was captured, and saved by others at times.  And those are only the storied we know! 

However, you could just assume his stats are rolled, and rolled really well. That would give you more feats to play with.  We could just assume he is born with great strength, dexterity, and constitution (which fits the fiction) and he really only needs slightly above average (if) for the rest of his stats.


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## Jay Verkuilen (Oct 25, 2018)

dave2008 said:


> Well, again that is outside the rules, and Mike wants to keep it as RAW as possible.




I agree with the goal of that. It's a useful exercise to test the limits of the system, if nothing else. 




> Personally, that seems a bit extreme to me.  It is not like he always succeeded at everything..  He failed, was captured, and saved by others at times.  And those are only the storied we know!
> 
> However, you could just assume his stats are rolled, and rolled really well. That would give you more feats to play with.  We could just assume he is born with great strength, dexterity, and constitution (which fits the fiction) and he really only needs slightly above average (if) for the rest of his stats.




Yeah, assuming he wasn't a point-buy but rolled and rolled well is a good one. Or was built on a much higher total due to "Ancient Blood" from the Cimmerians being descended from Atlanteans. 

Another way to make Conan more competent at skills is to say that backgrounds in his world are more beneficial than in D&D. For example, his excellent parkour skills are described as coming because of his Cimmerian background. Or just starts with a bonus feat or two, for example, Athlete would very much fit and would give him a good boost. Alert also fits for his extraordinary ability not to be surprised. In fact, I think if I were running a Hyborean-style campaign using 5E rules, one thing I'd do is give out a few bonus feat as part of the adventurer's background, possibly happening during the leveling process but not attached to a character class. 

The Modiphius Conan has a mechanic called "Fortune Points" which is used to ultimately balance characters. The more boosted your build is the fewer Fortune Points you have normally. Fortune Points are really, really useful and are way better than Inspiration so having one or two more is a big benefit for a PC.


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## Jay Verkuilen (Oct 25, 2018)

Slit518 said:


> Conan is most certainly a Mary Sue, I will admit it.




Conan probably is, at least to some degree. I don't think he's a direct REH insert but he's clearly exploring themes that REH found personally appealing, such as the pull between civilization and barbarism. Beyond that he certainly draws on the "tall tales" of the frontier along with the adventure stories that REH grew up on, such as _The Three Musketeers_. Superheroes come out of the same basic roots at roughly the same time, Zorro being a good example of a "masked avenger" precursor, along with Spring-heeled Jack. 

But not all high power characters in adventure stories are. I once heard an interview with Bernard Cornwell, author of many books but most notably the Sharpe series. Someone asked him, more or less, whether Richard Sharpe was a Mary Sue. Cornwell pretty much shot that down with "Oh no, not at all. His personality is not like me at all and he commits cold-blooded murder in the very first story!" Sharpe isn't as omni-competent as Conan, and would be a good example of a multiclassed fighter/barbarian translated to a modern setting his propensity for rage, though Patrick Harper would probably be a pure barbarian.


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## Quartz (Oct 25, 2018)

Elfcrusher said:


> I'd go the opposite way: if you're going to let Conan double the level cap, let him multiclass to 40.




Using the Gestalt concept from 3E might be better.


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## BookBarbarian (Oct 25, 2018)

Slit518 said:


> I once made a Conan character, I didn't give him any classes, I just made him his own unique "_creature._"
> 
> I took whatever elements I felt like taking from classes, and giving him whatever stats I felt were appropriate based on his accomplishments and feats.
> 
> ...




The problem here is that Wisdom in 5e is not good decision making. It's how well you take information in from the world around you. Conan is Perceptive and Insightful and that justifies a decent to high Wisdom.

Likewise Intelligence in 5e is not the ability to outsmart a foe, or come up with a good battle strategy. It's the ability to recall information you have previously learned about History, Magic or Nature for example. While Conan is decent at this there's not much to suggest his recall was on the level of a sage or scholar.

I think you would be more accurate to switch Wis and Int, again based on how they interact with the 5e world, not their real world definitions.


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## BookBarbarian (Oct 25, 2018)

Jay Verkuilen said:


> Conan probably is, at least to some degree. I don't think he's a direct REH insert but he's clearly exploring themes that REH found personally appealing, such as the pull between civilization and barbarism. Beyond that he certainly draws on the "tall tales" of the frontier along with the adventure stories that REH grew up on, such as _The Three Musketeers_. Superheroes come out of the same basic roots at roughly the same time, Zorro being a good example of a "masked avenger" precursor, along with Spring-heeled Jack.
> 
> But not all high power characters in adventure stories are. I once heard an interview with Bernard Cornwell, author of many books but most notably the Sharpe series. Someone asked him, more or less, whether Richard Sharpe was a Mary Sue. Cornwell pretty much shot that down with "Oh no, not at all. His personality is not like me at all and he commits cold-blooded murder in the very first story!" Sharpe isn't as omni-competent as Conan, and would be a good example of a multiclassed fighter/barbarian translated to a modern setting his propensity for rage, though Patrick Harper would probably be a pure barbarian.




I think it's fair to say that Conan is somewhat of a wish fulfillment for REH. They are the same Height and Weight for example. And in a way Sharpe is somewhat that for Cornwell, as was Horatio Hornblower for C.S. Forrester.

As is every D&D character I make for myself.


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## Jay Verkuilen (Oct 26, 2018)

BookBarbarian said:


> I think it's fair to say that Conan is somewhat of a wish fulfillment for REH. They are the same Height and Weight for example. And in a way Sharpe is somewhat that for Cornwell, as was Horatio Hornblower for C.S. Forrester.
> 
> As is every D&D character I make for myself.




I 100% agree that characters needs speak to you enough to want to write about them or play them, but to me Conan feels a bit more REH than, say, Sharpe does Bernard Cornwell. Cornwell specifically said in the interview that he was pretty clear that Sharpe isn't just what he would do if he could. Also it's literally possible to walk in the footsteps of the inspirations of Sharpe and Hornblower and read the writings of the soldiers and sailors of the Napoleonic Era along with the scholarship of authors such as John Keegan. Hyborea is more clearly fiction.


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## S'mon (Oct 26, 2018)

Conan definitely rolled his stats - and probably cheated...

Conan runs away a lot in the REH stories. If he were 40th level he would not need to run away.

To Me he reads like a mid to high level PC with very high rolled stats and a highly competent player. 

He never caught a dagger and threw it back in any story I read, but in 5e terms that sounds like a refluff of the Berserker Riposte ability.

DnD is a rather poor fit for Conan overall because Howard did not like writing extended fight scenes and usually enemies die to one blow. Whereas Dnd hit points are designed to keep characters alive for several rounds. Something like Runequest fits better.


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## Pauln6 (Oct 26, 2018)

Yeah some feats can be hand waved away as fluff.   The guy rolled a 1.  Conan caught the dagger.  He wrestled a giant bull.  He used his inspiration on the roll.  We don't have to stat everything as a class feature or feat.


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## Glenn Fleetwood (Oct 26, 2018)

This is Conan at the apex of his career?

I would strongly suggest reading the stories again and concentrating on those passages which describe him in comparative terms and how much better he is than other men - many of the stats here are totally inadequate for the descriptions in the novels. He is repeatedly described as utterly exceptional in terms of strength, speed, toughness and willpower.

I would put 20 Strength, 20 Dex, 20 Con and at least 16 Wis with that as a proficient save.

He also beats, solo, many enemies both natural and demonic which are regarded as undefeatable by mere mortals. Check out Xuthal of the Dusk for an example.

He isn't 'balanced' by any stretch of the imagination, even against a 20th level PC.

On the classes - I would put him on Barbarian 1, Thief (Rogue) 3, Ranger (Hunter) 3, Fighter (Champion) 13.


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## Guest 6801328 (Oct 26, 2018)

BookBarbarian said:


> I think it's fair to say that Conan is somewhat of a wish fulfillment for REH. They are the same Height and Weight for example. And in a way Sharpe is somewhat that for Cornwell, as was Horatio Hornblower for C.S. Forrester.
> 
> As is every D&D character I make for myself.




That's what I use my Enworld avatar for.  I've always fantasized about being a mean-spirited, argumentative, pedantic, contrarian.  Who hates Warlords.


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## Stalker0 (Oct 26, 2018)

Glenn Fleetwood said:


> He isn't 'balanced' by any stretch of the imagination, even against a 20th level PC.




20th level PCs are dealing with threats that can endanger the multiverse. Conan is awesome...but he ain't that awesome. He simply lives in a world where the vast majority of people are like 1-5th level.


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## Pauln6 (Oct 26, 2018)

Wish fulfilment fails to understand the point of these builds: to build a character within the rules that captures the spirit and abilities from the stories.  That's the challenge.  Saying you can only build him by breaking the rules is an epic failure.  Try harder!


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## Jay Verkuilen (Oct 27, 2018)

S'mon said:


> Conan definitely rolled his stats - and probably cheated... <...>
> 
> DnD is a rather poor fit for Conan overall because Howard did not like writing extended fight scenes




He may have wanted to write more but couldn't due to page limitations as well. But I agree, combat in REH's Conan (and even the pastiches) tends to be pretty short. 



> and usually enemies die to one blow. Whereas Dnd hit points are designed to keep characters alive for several rounds. Something like Runequest fits better.




Yeah I agree that D&D's hit points mechanic doesn't really line up unless most of the foes he fights are chumps, though dumb luck would end up killing or maiming him.


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## Jay Verkuilen (Oct 27, 2018)

Pauln6 said:


> Wish fulfilment fails to understand the point of these builds: to build a character within the rules that captures the spirit and abilities from the stories.  That's the challenge.  Saying you can only build him by breaking the rules is an epic failure.  Try harder!




It might also reveal that the premises of D&D and the fiction don't align. D&D tends not to align well to fiction, even fiction written ostensibly with D&D in mind. 

I think you can get in long spitting distance of Conan with higher than usual stats and a mix of Berserker Barbarian and Champion Fighter (for melee badassery) and a slightly altered Scout Rogue (for the requisite skills). I suspect it's not going to totally fit because, particularly because Conan operates as a solo and D&D has been explicitly and consciously built to make it hard for a PC to operate as a solo, at least without the DM writing adventures with that in mind, e.g., using relatively weak one-hit kill foes who aren't really able to overwhelm with numbers.


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## Guest 6801328 (Oct 27, 2018)

Stalker0 said:


> Conan is awesome...but he ain't that awesome. He simply lives in a world where the vast majority of people are like 1-5th level.




Huh.  Interesting.  By arbitrarily constraining everybody else to low level, it makes 5e "work" for Conan.  Sorta.  And I can see the logic: if you read the stories basically nobody...except Conan...acts like a high level PC.

I take that, however, to indicate that 5e does a poor job of representing that particular setting.  In the D&D paradigm _everybody_ eventually gets to be super powerful, if they keep at it.  All it takes is hard work and not dying.  But in Conan's world he gets to "high level" because he's Conan and unique.


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## Stalker0 (Oct 27, 2018)

Elfcrusher said:


> In the D&D paradigm _everybody_ eventually gets to be super powerful, if they keep at it.  All it takes is hard work and not dying.




Yeah but there is a lot that goes into the "hard work and not dying".

First of all, PCs are special in that most DMs throw encounters their way that advance some sort of metaplot and are reasonably balanced for their skill set. As opposed to most "other characters" that might be killed arbitrarily by some monster or something lame like a mugger.

PCs are also immune from boredom and tedium through the power of drama. For example, can you imagine how freakin mundane actually searching for traps is....how long and drawn out that activity. Or just simple mental trauma. "real people" dealing with a lot of what PCs deal with would have trauma and mental issues, but PCs shrug it off and keep going. PCs are also greedy as hell. Most 1st level players that got the kind of treasure the PCs did would just retire and live in comfort. PCs just ask for more...which is actually a very crazy mentality when you consider how dangerous the lifestyle is.

So while yes anyone can in theory get to high level, very few people do. And of course, Conan is just PC enough to do it!


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## TheCosmicKid (Oct 27, 2018)

Jay Verkuilen said:


> He may have wanted to write more but couldn't due to page limitations as well.



Pulp writers like Howard were paid by the word. Padding was extremely common. I'm confident that Howard wrote his action scenes the way he did because he was a good enough writer to know they were more effective that way.


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## TheCosmicKid (Oct 27, 2018)

As for the build itself, I don't think Conan needs to be quite _so_ multiclassed. He is definitely a multiclassed character: if the multiclassing rules aren't for a guy who started his life as a barbarian, spent some time as a thief, and then moved on to work as a mercenary, then who the heck are they for? But the ranger is superfluous. If you feel the need mechanically to boost his survival skills beyond proficiency, consider making him a scout rogue instead of a thief. Furthermore, although most Howard-faithful interpretations I've seen map his mercenary days to the fighter class, for parsimony's sake (and, I must confess, because it's right there in his title), I think it's just as viable to simply advance him again as a barbarian. So something like a barbarian X/rogue 3ish is how I'd do it.

But my real sticking point in this build is the background. Conan is an outlander. Is that even in doubt? A guttersnipe -- a child of the civilized city -- is about as far from Conan as it is possible to get.


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## dave2008 (Oct 27, 2018)

Stalker0 said:


> 20th level PCs are dealing with threats that can endanger the multiverse. Conan is awesome...but he ain't that awesome. He simply lives in a world where the vast majority of people are like 1-5th level.




Except in D&D 20th level PCs don't do that alone.  Conan mostly acted alone.


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## Jay Verkuilen (Oct 27, 2018)

TheCosmicKid said:


> Pulp writers like Howard were paid by the word. Padding was extremely common. I'm confident that Howard wrote his action scenes the way he did because he was a good enough writer to know they were more effective that way.




True that and I totally agree that REH avoided writing a lot of grind because he knew it wasn't good reading. However, I do think that the authors were often operating under constraint, either time or space. The editor says "you have 5000 words and need to turn this story in next week". If you don't have good ideas, it's time to pad (think undergrad research papers). If you do (and REH often did), you have to write much more leanly.


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## Jay Verkuilen (Oct 27, 2018)

Stalker0 said:


> 20th level PCs are dealing with threats that can endanger the multiverse. Conan is awesome...but he ain't that awesome. He simply lives in a world where the vast majority of people are like 1-5th level.




Conan often does deal with pretty cosmic stuff. He defeats multiple liches and other greater sorcerers (Tulsa Doom, Xaltotun, Thoth-Amon, etc.). Even early in his career, he encounters a master sorcerer who rules an entire kingdom by fear and stolen sorcerery (Yara). He doesn't always win by direct confrontation, though. So in the case of Yara, he defeats him by talking to Yag-Kosha and mercy-killing Yag-Kosha, which undoes Yara's base of power. 

All that said, I agree. Many of the foes Conan encounters are markedly lower level than him.


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## Selvarin (Oct 27, 2018)

My own -half-arsed contribution:

Conan
Human Male, N(G)
Barbarian 2/Fighter 6 (Champion)
ST 18, DEX 14, CON 14, INT 12, WIS 14, CH 15
Feats: Grappler, Resilient (WIS), Skilled (**), Tavern Brawler
Background: Outlander(*)
Skills: Acrobatics**, Athletics*, Intimidation, Perception, Sleight of Hand**, Stealth**, Survival*.

Doesn't need rogue or ranger levels. (Not all 'assassins' are rogues, nor are all 'thieves' rogues, nor are all 'wilderness trackers' rangers.) By 13th level he would be at 19 STR, 20 at 16th. Also, by 5E standards the world he lived in was magic-scarce so threats like liches, etc., were likely also a little underpowered as well.

Also, I rule-zeroed one rule in the process. I count all character levels when determining bonus feats or +1 attributes/4 levels.


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## Quartz (Oct 27, 2018)

You wouldn't have to rule zero anything if you bumped him to Fighter 8. Personally, I would bump him to Fighter 9 for the Indomitable ability.


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## Guest 6801328 (Oct 27, 2018)

Clearly the only way to make this as bad@$$ as the _real_ Conan is to make him Paladin 20.  Because we all know that's completely OP.  Homebrew an "Oath of Savagery" and refluff divine smite as Savage Attacks.


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## Selvarin (Oct 27, 2018)

True, but I hate the rule in general on how bonus feats and attribute points are handed out. In any event i wanted to first stat him at a lower level range and go from there.


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## squibbles (Oct 27, 2018)

My entirely too long take on Conan as a D&D 5e PC, with far too many quotes:

(apologies if I quoted any of you out of context or otherwise fumbled the quoting)

There's a tldr at the end.


*Abilities:*

All of Conan's ability scores are clearly very high.



BookBarbarian said:


> Conan never encounters a Human stronger than himself. Maybe a few that are as strong, but never outright stronger. So if you have Conan is at 18, than that's pretty much the limit of the setting. Also there's a sweet Athletics contest in Shadows in Zamboula where Baal-Pteor the strangler is trying to strangle Conan (and nearly does so) but Conan snaps Baal-Pteor's neck first.




His 'mighty thews' are repeatedly called out by Howard, and any mortal NPC whose strength is compared to his is weaker--with the exception of Baal-Pteor, described as Conan's equal, who unfortunately had dumped Constitution on char creation.



BookBarbarian said:


> Conan's prowess is often compared to a great cat.






Elfcrusher said:


> he's not just "agile as a tiger" he's more agile than basically anybody he meets, even those he encounters who are primarily agile.




Yep.



Slit518 said:


> His Constitution is also quite high, he can take blows, ward of diseases, survive harsh environments




This seems also to be related to his mighty thews. 



BookBarbarian said:


> Intelligence in 5e is not the ability to outsmart a foe, or come up with a good battle strategy. It's the ability to recall information you have previously learned about History, Magic or Nature for example. While Conan is decent at this there's not much to suggest his recall was on the level of a sage or scholar.




I disagree. In _The Servants of Bit-Yakin_, we are told "In his roaming about the world the giant adventurer had picked up a wide smattering of knowledge, particularly including the speaking and reading of many alien tongues. Many a sheltered scholar would have been astonished at the Cimmerian's linguistic abilities". In _Beyond the Black River_, Conan unexpectedly jumps into an extended explanation of the god Jhebbal Sag and his powers. Conan is very knowledgeable, and Howard, at least once, explicitly compares him to a scholar.



BookBarbarian said:


> Conan is Perceptive and Insightful and that justifies a decent to high Wisdom.




Agreed.



Slit518 said:


> Charisma is another good stat of Conan, with getting a kingdom, talking his way out of things (_even crazy things where he shouldn't be able to_), and all the women that swoon over him, convincing people to fight with him, he has a decent Charisma




He is often portrayed as becoming the leader of others through force of personality, for example in _A Witch Shall be Born_ or _Queen of the Black Coast_... though maybe its supposed to be that others intuit his manly competence just by looking at him 



S'mon said:


> Conan definitely rolled his stats - and probably cheated...




This! I think this is the defining characteristic of Conan--his player kept rerolling until Conan got straight 18s (and then spent one ASI to max Strength). This is also partly why Conan is so good at so many skills.

Moving on...


*Rogue Levels:*



Jay Verkuilen said:


> Conan's thiefly abilities are most due to his incredible climbing, high perception, and decent stealth. He's not a lockpicker or pickpocket. I agree he doesn't really need Rogue levels, or at least not many.






BookBarbarian said:


> In no depiction of him ever have I seen him use Thieves tools. Conan is a successful thief, but that's because he is stealthy and athletic.




These are good commentaries on the heists he attempts in _The Tower of the Elephant_ and _The God in the Bowl_. We also don't really see him sneak attack his enemies in combat. Though Howard refers to him as a thief several times, Conan isn't the rogue class.



Jay Verkuilen said:


> Conan was definitely a skill monkey




Definitely, but I think its because he took the skilled feat with one of his ASIs, which, coupled with his ridiculous ability scores, gives him big bonuses to a lot of skills. Also, as I mentioned above, I think he probably took the linguist feat.


*Barbarian Levels:*



dave2008 said:


> The rage ability is very representative of how he acts in many stories




He has at least one barbarian level. He is explicitly described as using the rage ability in several of Howard's stories like, for example, he does at the end of _The Devil in Iron_, when he chases down and stabs to death Khosatral Khel.



BookBarbarian said:


> The problem is that while the base class Barbarian abilities (like damage reduction, bonus damage to melee attacks made with strength, increased accuracy with melee attacks made with strength, faster movement, advantage on initiative, and advantage on Dex saves) actually fit Conan quite well, no Barbarian subclass fits him very well at all.




I would also hazard that some of the base class abilities don't fit very well either. Reckless attack, feral instinct, and relentless rage all seem a bit out of place to me. Conan doesn't attack recklessly, he is catlike, and, while he is noted in some stories as going into a rage-like state, he doesn't do it very often. He doesn't open a fight by using the rage ability and he doesn't use the rage ability to survive near death encounters. He just, sometimes, goes super saiyan so that he can wreck face harder. I'd say he has 1-2 barbarian levels at most. He multiclassed to fighter sometime around leaving Cimmeria/Nordheim.


*Fighter Levels:*

It's curious that we debate whether and how many barbarian and rogue levels Conan has, but not fighter levels. In any case, I'm in agreement that it makes sense for fighter to be his main class.


*Total Level:*



dave2008 said:


> Conan is also a good fit for a high level NPC as his a long and stored list of adventures and incredible accomplishments that map onto a high level character pretty well.




He does have a lot of adventures and accomplishments in his career but, even at an advanced age when he is king of Aquilonia, he is always dealing with grounded human concerns or minor encounters with the supernatural. All his adventures stay in sword and sorcery-land, he never goes to wuxia-land or epic fantasy-land. I don't think his level is all that high.



Stalker0 said:


> 20th level PCs are dealing with threats that can endanger the multiverse. Conan is awesome...but he ain't that awesome. He simply lives in a world where the vast majority of people are like 1-5th level.






S'mon said:


> Conan runs away a lot in the REH stories.






BookBarbarian said:


> you could drop him to 7 and he'd still feel very Conan like




I think you guys are right on the money. Hyboria is a gritty, low-magic, sword and sorcery world; you don't need a lot of levels to be its greatest warrior.


*Misc:*



Jay Verkuilen said:


> Another aspect of Conan is how dispensable gear is for him. He often starts and/or ends stories with nothing but a loin cloth




I'd do a random roll to see what gear Conan shows up with. Maybe he's half naked and unarmed. Maybe he's rocking a sword, shield, and breastplate. The only thing he doesn't seem to turn up in is heavy armor.



BookBarbarian said:


> Mariner covers his time as a Pirate and general athletic ability.




This is inspired.



BookBarbarian said:


> _*Feat: Mobile.*_ _*Feat: Prodigy.*_ _*Feat: Lucky.*_ _*Feat: Alert.*_






Selvarin said:


> Feats: Grappler, Resilient (WIS), Skilled (**), Tavern Brawler




These all make sense, but I don't see him being high enough level to get all of them. Maybe in Conan's game, the DM has a variant rule for PCs to learn feats as a downtime activity. Or maybe Conan's in something like an E6 game and is gradually taking all the feats. Wait... that's it! He is 100% in an E6 game.


*Tldr:*
Conan is playing in an E6 variant of 5e. He has 18s or 20s for all of his ability scores. He has one barbarian level and 5 fighter levels (and took mariner fighting style). His background is outlander. He has no consistent set of gear. And, since he spent so much time adventuring, he took a buttload of post-6th feats.


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## squibbles (Oct 27, 2018)

BookBarbarian said:


> If you stat Gandalf as an NPC instead of a PC (and I think you should) a full CR 10 Deva plus 5 levels of your favorite casting class works quite well.
> 
> Edit: The true error lies in trying to base his levels off of just what spells he is shown to cast (which I think is foolish.)




Perfectly on point. The backstory from _The Silmarillion_ makes it clear that Gandalf (and the other 4 wizards of Middle Earth) are minor angels and not wizards in the D&D sense, i.e. dudes who read a bunch of books about the occult.


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## Jay Verkuilen (Oct 27, 2018)

squibbles said:


> I disagree. In _The Servants of Bit-Yakin_, we are told "In his roaming about the world the giant adventurer had picked up a wide smattering of knowledge, particularly including the speaking and reading of many alien tongues. Many a sheltered scholar would have been astonished at the Cimmerian's linguistic abilities". In _Beyond the Black River_, Conan unexpectedly jumps into an extended explanation of the god Jhebbal Sag and his powers. Conan is very knowledgeable, and Howard, at least once, explicitly compares him to a scholar.




Good point, although in 5E he might well have used his downtime to pick up things like languages. 





> He is often portrayed as becoming the leader of others through force of personality, for example in _A Witch Shall be Born_ or _Queen of the Black Coast_... though maybe its supposed to be that others intuit his manly competence just by looking at him




Heh. No, that "manly competence" is a high Cha. 





> These are good commentaries on the heists he attempts in _The Tower of the Elephant_ and _The God in the Bowl_. We also don't really see him sneak attack his enemies in combat. Though Howard refers to him as a thief several times, Conan isn't the rogue class.




One reason I like him having a few rogue levels is because Expertise really gives him the ability to be bloody awesome at Athletics, which I really think is a defining feature, without being too sneak attacky. He's mostly operating on his own so it doesn't help him too much. Scout Rogue also gives some nicely enhanced mobility, which does feel pretty Conan. Unfortunately in 5E, being awesome at skills goes along with either being a bard (and casting spells, not Conan) or a rogue. If he convinced the DM to let him trade off Thieves Tools for something else that would fit even better, as he's not a lockpicker. 





> I would also hazard that some of the base class abilities don't fit very well either. Reckless attack, feral instinct, and relentless rage all seem a bit out of place to me. Conan doesn't attack recklessly, he is catlike, and, while he is noted in some stories as going into a rage-like state, he doesn't do it very often. He doesn't open a fight by using the rage ability and he doesn't use the rage ability to survive near death encounters. He just, sometimes, goes super saiyan so that he can wreck face harder. I'd say he has 1-2 barbarian levels at most. He multiclassed to fighter sometime around leaving Cimmeria/Nordheim.




I largely agree, though Barbarian _was_ clearly originally built to simulate Conan  





> He does have a lot of adventures and accomplishments in his career but, even at an advanced age when he is king of Aquilonia, he is always dealing with grounded human concerns or minor encounters with the supernatural. All his adventures stay in sword and sorcery-land, he never goes to wuxia-land or epic fantasy-land. I don't think his level is all that high. <...>  I think you guys are right on the money. Hyboria is a gritty, low-magic, sword and sorcery world; you don't need a lot of levels to be its greatest warrior.




Yeah, I don't think you need to make him insanely leveled but then again pretty high level characters can be really challenged by more mundane things if you (a) take away most magic, including gear, and (b) make them be alone or in a very small group. Still, if most of whom he encounters is pretty low level (or CR) he could be about 12th level and really do the job. The main thing is the fact that his stats are cranked in a way that most 5E characters are not. He also needs to have enough hit points to be able to survive hordes of guys attacking him. 




> I'd do a random roll to see what gear Conan shows up with. Maybe he's half naked and unarmed. Maybe he's rocking a sword, shield, and breastplate. The only thing he doesn't seem to turn up in is heavy armor.




I think when he's in King of Aquilonia mode he does actually show up with heavy armor but in general Conan prefers to travel light. 





> These all make sense, but I don't see him being high enough level to get all of them. Maybe in Conan's game, the DM has a variant rule for PCs to learn feats as a downtime activity. Or maybe Conan's in something like an E6 game and is gradually taking all the feats. Wait... that's it! He is 100% in an E6 game.




Not sure what E6 is. Elaborate? 

The more I think of it, the more I like the idea of Barbarian 2/Rogue (Scout) 4/Fighter 6, if you want him 12th level, or thereabouts anyway.


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## squibbles (Oct 27, 2018)

Jay Verkuilen said:


> Not sure what E6 is. Elaborate?




Its a 3e era homebrew where advancement stops at 6th level, at which point PCs don't get more spells, HP, or bonuses when they gain XP, but can use XP to pick up new feats.

Its described in detail here:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?206323-E6-The-Game-Inside-D-amp-D


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## Yardiff (Oct 27, 2018)

Jay Verkuilen said:


> I largely agree, though Barbarian was clearly originally built to simulate Conan




Conan was ONE OF the characters that the barbarian class was based off of, but the earlier barbarian classes didn't have rage as one of the core class features.


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## Jay Verkuilen (Oct 27, 2018)

Yardiff said:


> Conan was ONE OF the characters that the barbarian class was based off of, but the earlier barbarian classes didn't have rage as one of the core class features.




True, "barbarian fiction" was a thing back in the day. I was thinking of the 1E _Unearthed Arcana_ barbarian, which had a lot of pretty clear Conan-isms.


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## Quartz (Oct 27, 2018)

Elfcrusher said:


> Clearly the only way to make this as bad@$$ as the _real_ Conan is to make him Paladin 20.  Because we all know that's completely OP.  Homebrew an "Oath of Savagery" and refluff divine smite as Savage Attacks.




No need. He could be an Oath of Vengeance paladin, and his powers come from Crom. He just doesn't know he's Smiting. His holy symbol is his weapon, and the Vow of Enmity adds to his combat prowess. He sees his Laying on Hands as his fast recovery or second wind. And so on.


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## Guest 6801328 (Oct 28, 2018)

Quartz said:


> No need. He could be an Oath of Vengeance paladin, and his powers come from Crom. He just doesn't know he's Smiting. His holy symbol is his weapon, and the Vow of Enmity adds to his combat prowess. He sees his Laying on Hands as his fast recovery or second wind. And so on.




I think we're onto something.

This would explain how, in Hour of the Dragon, Conan kills the beast with one shot (with a dirk!) to the heart.  He crits with a slot-5 Divine Smite (plus, by lucky coincidence, it turns out the thing is a fiend) so he does 14d8 + 1d6 + 9, and JUST HAPPENS to roll maximum dice.  Because he's Conan.  Yes, there's a 1 in 4 trillion chance of that happening (approximately) but I guess Conan is a 1 in 4 trillion kind of guy.

(Or maybe that story doesn't count because REH didn't write it so it's not REALLY Conan.)

EDIT: Oops I forgot the dice from Improved Divine Smite.  That's 16d8, and 1 in 280 trillion chance of max damage.


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## Selvarin (Oct 28, 2018)

If one wants to bump him up, one could make him a Barbarian 2/Rogue 2/Fighter 8 (Champion). Perhaps give him Keen Mind or Linguist feats. That would make him closer to his 'prime'. I try to avoid adding too many levels and additional classes, it's too easy to stat-out to level 20 by looking at everything remarked upon.

With regard to his knowledge of languages, in D&D it's been dumbed down quite a bit. The mechanics for knowing a 'smattering' of words and basic communications skills aren't there. You either know a language or you don't, whereas in the real world we can well know enough to read or speak basic sentences and still not 'know' a language. (As an example, I've studied Italian and Spanish on and off over the years and remember enough to be able to 'read' some portions of a news article in either language, but no one including myself can say I truly know Italian or Spanish.) 

In the end what we write up are only approximations, as the writer never thought in D&D terms--it came afterward. Even material written after D&D has to be taken a certain way--Bruenor Battlehammer, for example, called upon his god to create Wulfgar's mighty hammer, but I wouldn't call him a cleric nor would RAS see him like that. Just as Liriel Baenre was never a Hathran even though she was able to participate in/utilize Rashemi magic ritual, however brief. A book is a book, a game is a game. Some things won't translate well.


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## S'mon (Oct 28, 2018)

squibbles said:


> *Tldr:*
> Conan is playing in an E6 variant of 5e. He has 18s or 20s for all of his ability scores. He has one barbarian level and 5 fighter levels (and took mariner fighting style). His background is outlander. He has no consistent set of gear. And, since he spent so much time adventuring, he took a buttload of post-6th feats.




Nailed it. 

Yeah, Conan's universe isn't one with level 11-20 characters running around in it.


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## S'mon (Oct 28, 2018)

Jay Verkuilen said:


> He also needs to have enough hit points to be able to survive hordes of guys attacking him.




I'd say his hp need to be low enough that he fears defeat and uses tactics like putting his back to the mast in Queen of the Black Coast. Where he could kill a bunch of Belit's pirates but did not believe himself to have any chance of beating 50 of them; very unlike a 20th level D&D PC.


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## S'mon (Oct 28, 2018)

Elfcrusher said:


> In the D&D paradigm _everybody_ eventually gets to be super powerful, if they keep at it.  All it takes is hard work and not dying.  But in Conan's world he gets to "high level" because he's Conan and unique.




I don't see any indication in 5e (or 4e) D&D that everyone can take class levels & level up, that was a 3e thing. None of the statted NPCs have actual class levels. You can create a Conanesque world using the official 5e NPC stat blocks pretty well.


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## Jay Verkuilen (Oct 28, 2018)

S'mon said:


> I'd say his hp need to be low enough that he fears defeat and uses tactics like putting his back to the mast in Queen of the Black Coast. Where he could kill a bunch of Belit's pirates but did not believe himself to have any chance of beating 50 of them; very unlike a 20th level D&D PC.




I wasn't arguing he should be 20th level, though there have been people who have. From just messing with Kobold Fight Club, the threshold for this fight being "Deadly" is essentially level 15. At level 12 the number of foes would drop to 36 for it to be "Deadly." At level 8 the threshold is 16. Putting his back to the mast would cut down the number of attacks coming in and would turn what would likely be nasty to being more survivable so it is smart tactics to do it, even if he's fairly high level. 

Checking the post that quote was from I said around level 12 with high stats. That was off the cuff but comes in pretty well... hmmm. Most of what makes Conan hard to build is the fact that his stats are pretty off the charts for standard build characters and he has too many skills and languages.


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## Jay Verkuilen (Oct 28, 2018)

S'mon said:


> I don't see any indication in 5e (or 4e) D&D that everyone can take class levels & level up, that was a 3e thing. None of the statted NPCs have actual class levels.




Yes, that was a 3.Xism, although many NPCs in 2E had classes and levels. NPC stat blocks in 5E don't have explicit levels but you can usually read off what class they were built on. 



> You can create a Conanesque world using the official 5e NPC stat blocks pretty well.




I agree, but you need to make sure the opposition is typically lower level.


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## Guest 6801328 (Oct 28, 2018)

S'mon said:


> I don't see any indication in 5e (or 4e) D&D that everyone can take class levels & level up, that was a 3e thing. None of the statted NPCs have actual class levels. You can create a Conanesque world using the official 5e NPC stat blocks pretty well.




So he's literally the ONLY player character in that world?

Look, I get that artificially limiting just about every other human to low level kind of makes it all work, but that's not a good indication that 5e is the right ruleset for this setting.

The only reason I'm arguing this point so stubbornly is that I think there's not enough of awareness of how a ruleset...not the fluff, but the actual underlying mechanics...can either reinforce or hinder the flavor of a setting.  This is just a fun thought experiment, I get that, but in general I don't think the community has high enough expectations, in this regard, from the publishers.  I think it was a huge mistake and lost opportunity for Modiphius to recycle 2d20 for the Conan game (even though that's their MO).  MERP and ICE's "Law" based rules were always a terrible fit for Middle Earth.  GURPS was, in retrospect, a misguided idea.  And as much as I like playing D&D 5e, I don't agree with porting it to every genre and setting.

So this is part of my little campaign to move the needle.


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## Quartz (Oct 28, 2018)

S'mon said:


> I'd say his hp need to be low enough that he fears defeat and uses tactics like putting his back to the mast in Queen of the Black Coast. Where he could kill a bunch of Belit's pirates but did not believe himself to have any chance of beating 50 of them; very unlike a 20th level D&D PC.




Aren't you forgetting the effects of bounded accuracy? A 20th level Conan may have around 200 HP but those 50 pirates are going to land a lot of attacks. If we assume an average bonus of +2 and a d6 weapon, that's 5.5 damage per hit so he can only take 36 hits (fewer actually, as you can expect at least one one to be a critical hit). Those level 1 fighters are attacking at an average of +4 (+2 PB, +2 stat) with Advantage (half using the Help action), so are going to hit most of the time if Conan doesn't have Unarmoured Defence. If we give him Con 24 and Dex 20 for AC 22 and make him a level 20 Barbarian then they'll have a much tougher time, of course. (Then again, a nasty GM might disallow him his Dex to AC given the press...)


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## S'mon (Oct 29, 2018)

Elfcrusher said:


> So he's literally the ONLY player character in that world?
> 
> Look, I get that artificially limiting just about every other human to low level kind of makes it all work, but that's not a good indication that 5e is the right ruleset for this setting.




I agree that no edition of D&D is particularly suitable for Conan (it fits Mouser & Fafhrd better, funnily enough - also Elric). E6 approach comes closest.


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## S'mon (Oct 29, 2018)

Quartz said:


> Aren't you forgetting the effects of bounded accuracy?




I don't think so, no! Although certainly a 5e F20 is less godlike than a 3e F20. More like a BX F20. Maybe he can only kill 40 foes solo before dying rather than hundreds.

Edit: Not sure how Help action would be relevant - you would allow those to rear to grant Advantage to those in front? Might be reasonable to simulate the press of battle.

Edit 2: Conan in the story is definitely not an F20, or B20, he wears a chain shirt with shield so probably AC 13+2+2= 17. He comes across ca 6th-7th level to my mind, he is definitely much tougher than the Argossean sailors who get massacred by Belit's pirates, who seem fairly competent so +4 attack/d6+2 seems reasonable, vs a regular MM tribesman +3/d6+1. Or the sailors might have been 4 hit point Commoners vs regular 11 hp Tribesmen at the low end. But they are described as fairly sturdy so IMC I would have statted the sailors at 2 hd, 9-11 hp & STR 12 ATT +3/d6+1, and the pirates I might have given an extra hd, 3d8+3 > 16 hp, with ATT +4/d6+2.

Actually there was a similar encounter IMC (Wilderlands) May 2017 where Hakeem the high level (Tier IV) Barbarian had his ship boarded by pirates, I actually based the pirates off the Scout stat block but with 2 melee attacks/round. Hakeem killed their leader Typhoon in single combat and persuaded the new pirate chief to withdraw rather than lose dozens of men in taking Hakeem down.

The pirate leader Typhoon was really nasty:

CAPTAIN TYPHOON, the Titan's Bastard KILLED BY HAKEEM M2 4447
Goliath
Armor Class: 15 (Unarmoured Toughness)
Hit Points: 200 (20d12 +60) plus 10 for Stone's Endurance
Speed: 30ft (9m / 6 sqr)
Proficiency: +4
STR
22 (+6)
DEX
14 (+2)
CON
17 (+3)
INT
10 (+0)
WIS
14 (+2)
CHA
12 (+1)
Skills: Athletics +10 Intimidation +5 Animal Handling +6 Survival +6 Nature +4
Saving Throws: Strength +10 Constitution +7
Challenge: 12 (8400 XP) 
Racial Features
Ability Modifiers: +2 Str, +1 Con
Natural Athlete: You have proficiency in the Athletics skill.
Powerful Build: You count as one size larger when determining your carrying capacity and the weight you can push, drag, or lift.
Mountain Born: You're acclimated to high altitude, including elevations above 20,000 feet. You're also naturally adapted to cold climates,
Languages: speaks Common and Giant
Image result for Skull Greataxe
The Howling Axe
Actions
Multiattack. Typhoon makes four weapon melee attacks, or throws three javelins (three if started holding two then draws one, or two if started with axe in hand).

The Howling Axe, Massive Demon-forged  +2 Greataxe. Melee Weapon Attack +12 to hit, reach 5 ft, one target. Hit: 27 (3d12 +8 ) slashing damage. SA: This two-handed axe requires STR 20 to wield and does 2d12 on a hit (Typhoon gets a +1 die bonus). On a hit the Howling Axe gives a terrifying scream. Foes of 6 hd or less who hear the Scream for the first time are Frightened for 1 minute/10 rounds. A non-frightened ally may attempt a DC 15 Persuasion check as an action to rally them and break the effect.
Properties: Heavy, Two-handed,

Massive Javelin. Melee Weapon Attack +10 to hit, range 30/120, one target. Hit: 16 (3d6 +6 ) piercing damage


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## pemerton (Oct 29, 2018)

Elfcrusher said:


> (Or maybe that story doesn't count because REH didn't write it so it's not REALLY Conan.)



Huh? Unless I'm misremembering badly, REH wrote Hour of the Dragon. He was hoping to break into the British market. (But his would-be publisher went broke.)


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## pemerton (Oct 29, 2018)

When I think of Conan I'm thinking of REH's depiction.

He has might thews - high STR. He is quick like a cat/panther - high DEX. He is never surprised - high WIS. He seduces practically every woman he meets, he befriends Pelias (the wizard he meets in The Scarelt Citadel) straight away, and his soldiers, vassals etc are extremely loyal - high CHA. He survives crucifixion - high CON. The only one of his stats that is not obviously superlative is INT.

In the 5e context this can't be done for a PC without (imputed) rolling, but presumalby is permissible for a NPC. The point buy rules are for balance among players, not a model of human attributes within the setting.

His abilities are amazing fighting (eg he kills were-hyenas with single bow-shots and by breaking their skulls with the hilt of his sword). He is an excellent climber and incredibly stealthy. And he is pratically fearless.

In AD&D he could be a barbarian or variant fighter of high level. In 4e one could look at some sort of ranger, warlord or fighter build (or hybrid variants). I agree with some other posters that 5e makes it harder to capture his comptence, but a fighter or barbarian with appropriate stats and skills looks like a reasonable starting point.

Once he becomes king, his Bond would be Aquilonia, his Ideal would be honour, and his Flaw his temper.


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## dave2008 (Oct 29, 2018)

Elfcrusher said:


> So he's literally the ONLY player character in that world?
> 
> Look, I get that artificially limiting just about every other human to low level kind of makes it all work, but that's not a good indication that 5e is the right ruleset for this setting.
> 
> ...




I get your point, and generally agree with you.  However, I have been surprised by this thread in that it has made me realize how easy it would be to create a really good Conan (and Hyborean age) with the 5e ruleset.  Just a few minor tweaks (similar in style to AiME I'm thinking) and I think you could capture the feel of both (at least for me).


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## Guest 6801328 (Oct 29, 2018)

pemerton said:


> The only one of his stats that is not obviously superlative is INT.




He picks up languages as easily as he picks up women.

OTOH, in 5e there's no link between Int and languages.  So there's that.


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## Guest 6801328 (Oct 29, 2018)

pemerton said:


> Huh? Unless I'm misremembering badly, REH wrote Hour of the Dragon. He was hoping to break into the British market. (But his would-be publisher went broke.)




Yes, you are 100% right.  Momentary brain fart there.


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## squibbles (Oct 29, 2018)

Elfcrusher said:


> I think there's not enough of awareness of how a ruleset...not the fluff, but the actual underlying mechanics...can either reinforce or hinder the flavor of a setting.  This is just a fun thought experiment, I get that, but in general I don't think the community has high enough expectations, in this regard, from the publishers.  I think it was a huge mistake and lost opportunity for Modiphius to recycle 2d20 for the Conan game (even though that's their MO).  MERP and ICE's "Law" based rules were always a terrible fit for Middle Earth.  GURPS was, in retrospect, a misguided idea.  And as much as I like playing D&D 5e, I don't agree with porting it to every genre and setting.






dave2008 said:


> I get your point, and generally agree with you.  However, I have been surprised by this thread in that it has made me realize how easy it would be to create a really good Conan (and Hyborean age) with the 5e ruleset.  Just a few minor tweaks (similar in style to AiME I'm thinking) and I think you could capture the feel of both (at least for me).




I realize this is derailing the thread a bit but, as I intend to run a game in a Hyborian-esque sword and sorcery world, I'd like to inquire further about the mechanics of the 5e ruleset that are a problem for sword and sorcery (apart from the high magic stuff, obviously).

How would 5e's mechanics hinder the flavor of such a setting?

What tweaks would be necessary to capture the right feel?

I've read AiME, Mophidiums Conan, Primeval Thule, etc.


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## dave2008 (Oct 29, 2018)

squibbles said:


> I realize this is derailing the thread a bit but, as I intend to run a game in a Hyborian-esque sword and sorcery world, I'd like to inquire further about the mechanics of the 5e ruleset that are a problem for sword and sorcery (apart from the high magic stuff, obviously).
> 
> How would 5e's mechanics hinder the flavor of such a setting?
> 
> ...




I haven't put a lot of thought into it, but I would start with:

1) level cap:  at least 10, maybe lower.  Keeps hit points and magic low.  I would also couple this with slower advancement.
2) minions:  almost all opponents are CR 1 or below
3) magic:  I would probably do away with cantrips, or at least attack cantrips.  I would also look at increasing casting time and/or moving higher level spells to rituals.  Possibly spell failure from damage (if you take damage before you cast a spell in a round you make a concentration check or you can't cast a spell that round - or something similar)


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## Jay Verkuilen (Oct 29, 2018)

pemerton said:


> When I think of Conan I'm thinking of REH's depiction.
> 
> He has might thews - high STR. He is quick like a cat/panther - high DEX. He is never surprised - high WIS. He seduces practically every woman he meets, he befriends Pelias (the wizard he meets in The Scarelt Citadel) straight away, and his soldiers, vassals etc are extremely loyal - high CHA. He survives crucifixion - high CON. The only one of his stats that is not obviously superlative is INT.




Conan is canny, but I think the Alert feat does the job preventing surprise perfectly well and Resilient(Wis) would also help with the whole "resisting domination and/or beguiling". He often gets himself in other trouble, certainly with money and women, so I'm not entirely sure I'd say he's got a demonstrably high overall Wis, just not bad. But I agree, the others are definitely pretty rocked. 




> In the 5e context this can't be done for a PC without (imputed) rolling, but presumalby is permissible for a NPC. The point buy rules are for balance among players, not a model of human attributes within the setting.




Agreed. IMO the big problem 5E has is that he'd run out of feats if he's also paying for ASIs because he pretty clearly has Alert and likely has Great Weapon Master and Athlete, too. Fighter levels helps with that, though, or you can give him Scout Rogue for a really rocked Athletics due to expertise. 

But assuming he starts with high stats, I think a Berserker Barbarian/Samurai or Champion Fighter/Scout Rogue does a pretty reasonable job.


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## Jay Verkuilen (Oct 29, 2018)

squibbles said:


> I realize this is derailing the thread a bit but, as I intend to run a game in a Hyborian-esque sword and sorcery world, I'd like to inquire further about the mechanics of the 5e ruleset that are a problem for sword and sorcery (apart from the high magic stuff, obviously).
> 
> How would 5e's mechanics hinder the flavor of such a setting?
> 
> ...




Here are some thoughts:


Most casting classes would need to go. This is particularly true for attack cantrips. Furthermore, I'd likely make most casters Warlocks. A cantrip like Vicious Mockery fits fairly well and could likely be generalized to other effects, though. Warlocks do a good job of simulating many different kinds of magic but in a situation where it's fairly rare and limited. 
Most, though not all, spells would need to be rituals and in general magic is a corrupting thing so there should be some notable cost to using magic. Reskinning goes a long way, though: So fireball might be something that happens due to Alchemy. 
I'd seriously consider making most PC casters half caster types at best. 
Fast travel and other "ignore the world" pretty much has to go. 
I'd seriously consider using Sanity rules or some kind of Corruption points. 
Most magic items would be McGuffins, not loot for the PCs. However, the upper tiers of gear would generally not be available broadly, so many foes would be working with weapons that do D6 and have ACs that are only middling. That would mean that the upper tier of mundane gear would be very valued by the PCs. 
Fast healing is an issue and requires some thought. AIME allows for short rests but generally requires long rests to be done in a "sanctuary" and thus aren't typically available on an adventure. This really changes the feel in a gritty direction and makes hit dice super valuable. Hyborean Age might actually feel more reasonable with the "all better after a night's rest, especially if it involves shagging a hottie" though, but adventures should be written to press the PCs pretty hard and I'd overall be very wary of most fast healing, especially when controlled by the PCs. One way to allow it, though, would be via temporary hit points, which are limited due to not stacking and are, well, temporary. Thus a healing elixir of some sort that provides THP feels much more in genre. 
Other folks have said you need a level cap. I don't agree with that but in general, most foes would be fairly weak because the big force multipliers in the form of area effect and other control magic will be limited and the campaign should focus on the lower to middle end of the power spectrum. People over on the AIME forum did some calculations and figured out that Gimli and Legolas work out pretty nicely as about 13th level warriors (aka fighters in AIME) based on their deeds in Helm's Deep. That feels like an appropriate upper end of action for a Hyborean game. If you want to challenge a really high level character, limiting rests would definitely help, though. 
One idea from Modiphius Conan I think is pretty cool is to have gear be sacrificed to avoid a crit, possibly as a reaction. This helps generate the churn of gear that S&S or grittier type genres have, where shields get broken, swords get ruined parrying. It gives the PCs a bit more survivability and helps reinforce the genre. 
5E, like all D&D, is very much built around niche protection and assumes a party of five. Hyborean type adventures tend to have more broadly competent PCs and fewer of them. I'd consider giving some extra feats of selected type. These would be Linguist, Skilled, etc., so not powerhouse type things but ones that reflect the fact that Hyborean characters become very broad from all their travels.


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## Mike Myler (Oct 29, 2018)

squibbles said:


> I realize this is derailing the thread a bit but, as I intend to run a game in a Hyborian-esque sword and sorcery world, I'd like to inquire further about the mechanics of the 5e ruleset that are a problem for sword and sorcery (apart from the high magic stuff, obviously).
> 
> How would 5e's mechanics hinder the flavor of such a setting?
> 
> ...




Boop --> https://mikemyler.com/2018/02/11/dd-5e-in-ancient-greece-the-new-argonauts-5e-conversion/


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## BookBarbarian (Oct 29, 2018)

Jay Verkuilen said:


> Here are some thoughts:
> 
> 
> Most casting classes would need to go. This is particularly true for attack cantrips. Furthermore, I'd likely make most casters Warlocks. A cantrip like Vicious Mockery fits fairly well and could likely be generalized to other effects, though. Warlocks do a good job of simulating many different kinds of magic but in a situation where it's fairly rare and limited.
> ...




Solid. I've mused a bit before about an Iron Heroes style 5e variant for low magic settings, that would offer more variety of no-spellcasting classes.


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## pemerton (Oct 29, 2018)

Elfcrusher said:


> He picks up languages as easily as he picks up women.
> 
> OTOH, in 5e there's no link between Int and languages.  So there's that.



Yeah, the second thing was what I had in mind.


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## squibbles (Oct 29, 2018)

Mike Myler said:


> Boop --> https://mikemyler.com/2018/02/11/dd-5e-in-ancient-greece-the-new-argonauts-5e-conversion/




Summary for those who didn't follow the link: humans only but with some quasi-magical sub-race features, 4 classes (barbarian, fighter, rogue, modified warlock), modified spell list, lots of classical Greece specific feats and equipment (no heavy armor).



dave2008 said:


> I haven't put a lot of thought into it, but I would start with:
> 
> 1) level cap:  at least 10, maybe lower.  Keeps hit points and magic low.  I would also couple this with slower advancement.
> 2) minions:  almost all opponents are CR 1 or below
> 3) magic:  I would probably do away with cantrips, or at least attack cantrips.  I would also look at increasing casting time and/or moving higher level spells to rituals.  Possibly spell failure from damage (if you take damage before you cast a spell in a round you make a concentration check or you can't cast a spell that round - or something similar)






Jay Verkuilen said:


> Here are some thoughts:
> 
> 
> Most casting classes would need to go. This is particularly true for attack cantrips. Furthermore, I'd likely make most casters Warlocks. A cantrip like Vicious Mockery fits fairly well and could likely be generalized to other effects, though. Warlocks do a good job of simulating many different kinds of magic but in a situation where it's fairly rare and limited.
> ...




I arrived at broadly similar conclusions, i.e.

Gut the casting classes and spell list, especially cantrips, maybe don't cut Warlocks
Refluff the spells that remain, change a bunch to rituals, add more risk/reward to them
Make the gear less magic and lower tech
Change the way healing works--though there are differing views on how
Maybe impose a level cap or, at least, spend more time at low levels
I'm wondering, reflecting on Elfcrusher's comment that mechanics reinforce or hinder a setting's flavor, whether 5e's design staples--D20 resolution, bounded accuracy, HP, casting spells from slots, resources that recover with rest, etc.--make for an inherently non-Hyborian feeling game. Scale back the magic is a pretty straightforward solution, do you think it works appreciably?



dave2008 said:


> 2) minions:  almost all opponents are CR 1 or below



Yeah, that's an interesting thought. Throw mobs of low CR stuff at the party (since they likely lack magical crowd control), season with an occasional deadly monster.



Jay Verkuilen said:


> One idea from Modiphius Conan I think is pretty cool is to have gear be sacrificed to avoid a crit, possibly as a reaction. This helps generate the churn of gear that S&S or grittier type genres have, where shields get broken, swords get ruined parrying. It gives the PCs a bit more survivability and helps reinforce the genre.



This reminds me of the OSR's 'shields shall be splintered' rule. I can see it having a significant effect on the game's feel.



Jay Verkuilen said:


> 5E, like all D&D, is very much built around niche protection and assumes a party of five. Hyborean type adventures tend to have more broadly competent PCs and fewer of them. I'd consider giving some extra feats of selected type. These would be Linguist, Skilled, etc., so not powerhouse type things but ones that reflect the fact that Hyborean characters become very broad from all their travels.



I haven't seen this suggested before, but it makes a lot of sense; favor smaller parties and give each PC a broader skillset. I think it would make the game feel more HYborian.



BookBarbarian said:


> I've mused a bit before about an Iron Heroes style 5e variant for low magic settings, that would offer more variety of no-spellcasting classes.



IIRC Iron Heroes didn't use hit points, but a bunch of injury levels (5ish) on a sliding scale between healthy and dead, with PCs rolling each time they got hit to see if they descended down the scale. Its a pretty radical departure from normal combat resolution, but I've never played with it. How does that work in practice?

I'll stop hijacking the topic after this, honest


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## dave2008 (Oct 29, 2018)

squibbles said:


> Yeah, that's an interesting thought. Throw mobs of low CR stuff at the party (since they likely lack magical crowd control), season with an occasional deadly monster.




Yes, I kinda realized this during this thread.  5e actually does a good job of modeling Conan, if everything else is low level / CR.  Sword and Sorcery is low magic, gritty, etc., but the heroes are in fact high level characters wading through a bunch of low level foes.  Since 5e allows low level creatures to still be a threat (especially without magic items and buffing magic) it does a good job of allowing a PC(s) to take on a mob of creatures.  You can do it, but it can get dicey.

You just have to assume the PCs are really the exception (beyond the standard D&D adventurer assumption) and everything else pretty much falls into place.


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## Pauln6 (Oct 30, 2018)

dave2008 said:


> Yes, I kinda realized this during this thread.  5e actually does a good job of modeling Conan, if everything else is low level / CR.  Sword and Sorcery is low magic, gritty, etc., but the heroes are in fact high level characters wading through a bunch of low level foes.  Since 5e allows low level creatures to still be a threat (especially without magic items and buffing magic) it does a good job of allowing a PC(s) to take on a mob of creatures.  You can do it, but it can get dicey.
> 
> You just have to assume the PCs are really the exception (beyond the standard D&D adventurer assumption) and everything else pretty much falls into place.




5e is easy to tweak for a solo campaign.  Reduce monster hp.  Tease down save DCs,  remove legendary monsters (although legendary actions are limited by the number of opponents), reduce the number of attacks per round and limit spell casting. 

I never read the books but I love his adventuring groups in the movies.  If Conan is built at 12th then tge others are probably 6th to 10th.  I'm sure I tried to stat them in 3e.  I expect it would be even easier in 5e.  Valeria a Rogue / Fighter, Subotai a Ranger / Rogue, Akiro a Cleric / Bard, Zula a Barbarian / Rogue, and Malek a Rogue.


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## Guest 6801328 (Oct 30, 2018)

Pauln6 said:


> I never read the books




Your next move should be obvious.


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## Caliburn101 (Oct 30, 2018)

Stalker0 said:


> 20th level PCs are dealing with threats that can endanger the multiverse. Conan is awesome...but he ain't that awesome. He simply lives in a world where the vast majority of people are like 1-5th level.




That's an argument one can make, but you have to ignore the CR ratings and level-based demographics of a typical D&D world to make it stick.

Conan defeats a Demon God responsible for devouring almost the entire inhabitants of the most advanced sorcerous city in the world at one point. He faces down the most powerful sorcerers of the age, and of previous ages. He steals the most awesome treasures of the age and takes on encounters with eldritch beasties which have killed entire groups of warriors effortlessly.

'Awesome' in this context is a matter of opinion - but if you are going to stat the character, and he is the most storied protagonist of an entire age of the world, he should not be eclipsed by any 20th level character that comes along.


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## S'mon (Oct 30, 2018)

Caliburn101 said:


> That's an argument one can make, but you have to ignore the CR ratings and level-based demographics of a typical D&D world to make it stick.




5e doesn't have NPC level demographics so IMO there's nothing to ignore. But yes you would certainly have to not run it like 1e-3e Forgotten Realms!

I think if I were doing Conan in 5e I'd use E10 - 5e DMG Epic rules with level cap at level 10 - I did a blog post on this at http://simonyrpgs.blogspot.com/2018/08/going-epic-10-in-5e-d.html - and Conan would have the highest stats. Probably slow advancement as I don't think he reaches 10th level until fairly late in his career; he spends most of it level 5 to 10.


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## BookBarbarian (Oct 30, 2018)

squibbles said:


> IIRC Iron Heroes didn't use hit points, but a bunch of injury levels (5ish) on a sliding scale between healthy and dead, with PCs rolling each time they got hit to see if they descended down the scale. Its a pretty radical departure from normal combat resolution, but I've never played with it. How does that work in practice?




Oh interesting. I've never got the chance to play it, but from this part of the wiki on it I assumed they had hit points:



> hit points are generated with a very small die (a four-sided die) with a class-based bonus


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## squibbles (Oct 31, 2018)

BookBarbarian said:


> Oh interesting. I've never got the chance to play it, but from this part of the wiki on it I assumed they had hit points:




Apologies, I just double checked, it uses hit points as normal; 1d4+X where X is based on class. I'm not sure where I got that idea from


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## BookBarbarian (Oct 31, 2018)

squibbles said:


> Apologies, I just double checked, it uses hit points as normal; 1d4+X where X is based on class. I'm not sure where I got that idea from




The overall idea of lowering total hitpoints for a low magic game is intriguing.


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## Guest 6801328 (Oct 31, 2018)

Jay Verkuilen said:


> Here are some thoughts:
> 
> 
> One idea from Modiphius Conan I think is pretty cool is to have gear be sacrificed to avoid a crit, possibly as a reaction. This helps generate the churn of gear that S&S or grittier type genres have, where shields get broken, swords get ruined parrying. It gives the PCs a bit more survivability and helps reinforce the genre.




I wanted to get back to this.  I think a signature feature of Conan stories...maybe nothing that really stood out when they were published but is a distinct difference from RPGs (and from Tolkien, it's worth mentioning)...is that Conan essentially never carries gear from one story to the next.  A key characteristic of Conan is that he is constantly picking up (and mastering) new weapons or weapon variants.  And while magic weapons don't really factor in, there are references to some weapons being higher quality than others.

And it's not just his weapons: however much wealth he manages to hold onto by the end of a story, by the next one it's all gone again.

Although I've tinkered with systems for weapon quality, and quality degradation, without even going there a feature I would very much enjoy in a Conan-esque 5e game is that during "downtime" you roll on random tables to determine what happens to your wealth and gear, and what you start off with the next time.  The tables would vary by the region in which the next adventure begins, although with some chance of producing a roll that says, essentially, "roll on the table from the region where your last adventure ended".  Or even, "pick from whatever table you like."

Gear loss/replacement is important in part because of the absence of magic items: without the possibility of upgrades, once you get your preferred weapon you have nothing to look forward to.  But if you look forward to upgrades every adventure, the excitement remains.  You may be level 8, but once again you find yourself with a club, so that decent spear is a good upgrade, and when you find the finely crafted Broadsword you're psyched.  For now.

On a related note, I think it's ok for the campaign to just jump from one location to another between adventures.  The same tables could add some color about what occurred during the transition.  Sure, you could play out every leg of every journey, but this is another example of the difference between generic rules that can be used in Hyboria, and rules that evoke the flavor of Conan.  I'd _rather_ have DM-narrated transitions, because that would feel more like Conan stories.

So the first thing you do when sitting down to a new session and a new adventure is roll to see what happened since the last adventure.  Maybe your success in the last adventure gives you "points" to spend to alter the rolls, or re-roll them, or whatever.  Maybe you get some choice in what happened to your money, and what related affect still lingers.  ("You blew all your money gambling, but as a result you now have a new bond with this particular NPC...")

Now _that_ would feel like an REH story.  To me.

EDIT: And I have to add, for clarity, that I don't mean the above is my ideal for a perfect RPG.  I wouldn't (necessarily) want those rules for a Star Wars game, for example.  It's an example of genre/setting specific mechanics.


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## smbakeresq (Oct 31, 2018)

I have never thought of Conan as a rogue/Thief even though he stole things.  I always figured he was a strong-arm thief, he was not a sleight of hand, lock picking, skulking in shadows, second story type.  He had companions handle that stuff.


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## Pauln6 (Oct 31, 2018)

smbakeresq said:


> I have never thought of Conan as a rogue/Thief even though he stole things.  I always figured he was a strong-arm thief, he was not a sleight of hand, lock picking, skulking in shadows, second story type.  He had companions handle that stuff.




You can give him the skills he needs with reference to in story downtime but the question is more whether cunning action is something he might use.  The Assassin subclass might suit him for a few levels.


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## Guest 6801328 (Nov 1, 2018)

smbakeresq said:


> I have never thought of Conan as a rogue/Thief even though he stole things.  I always figured he was a strong-arm thief, he was not a sleight of hand, lock picking, skulking in shadows, second story type.  He had companions handle that stuff.




Did you mean that his Rogue subclass wasn't Thief, or that he wasn't a Rogue at all, just a warrior who stole stuff?

I would very much argue that he was a highly skilled thief; he spent a long time as a professional thief and his skills (moving silently, climbing) pop up in the stories.

So, in 5e terms maybe he just has proficiency in athletics and stealth.  

Whether or not that actually means some Rogue levels is another question.  The main benefit to being a Rogue, and especially an Assassin, would be that he frequently surprises enemies, and in game terms that would mean critting on sneak attacks.  Combined with Action Surge, that would mean doing stupid amounts of damage on a single target, or killing lots of mooks.   Which Conan often does before enemies can even react.

The problem is that he often does this with axes, broadswords, etc.  Not finesse weapons.

(Really, there should be some ability somewhere in the game...whether it's a subclass or a Feat or something...that allows Sneak Attack with non-finesse weapons.)


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## smbakeresq (Nov 1, 2018)

I am more of the opinion he was a warrior who has athletics as a skill and is good at climbing and had stealth as a skill and was good at it.

Having athletics and stealth as skills doesn’t make mean you have rogue as a  class.  In earlier editions when move silently was a skill specific to certain classes, you would have to put some rogue in, but this edition changes that.

If anything I would use his human variant feat to take more skills to reflect his abilities.  

I would think Barbarian (bear) totem to reflect his toughness but using Crom instead of Bear as motivating Spirit and then Fighter (Champion) rest of way is sufficient with human variant feat for more skills.


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## TheCosmicKid (Nov 2, 2018)

smbakeresq said:


> I have never thought of Conan as a rogue/Thief even though he stole things.  I always figured he was a strong-arm thief, he was not a sleight of hand, lock picking, skulking in shadows, second story type.  He had companions handle that stuff.



Read "The Tower of the Elephant". He doesn't pick locks as I recall, but he is pretty good at skulking and second-story work. His plan is to get into the tower from the top and get out again without detection. (Naturally, things don't go according to plan.)


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## TheCosmicKid (Nov 2, 2018)

A lot of the discussion of Conan's abilities and level here confuses me. Why would you say that Conan's level is capped at 5 or 10 when one of his most distinctive features as a fantasy hero is that he's been on a lot of adventures and seen and done a lot of different things? If that doesn't say "high-level hero" to you, then what does? They are, after all, called _experience_ points. Sure, Conan may not jump over mountains or shatter buildings with a stomp or do any of those overtly high-powered, mythic/wuxia-style feats, but maybe, rather than indicating that he's not high level, it's instead an indication that high-level characters don't have to be like that. Conan can beat almost anything and survive the rest not because he has superpowers, but because he's got loads and loads of experience beating and surviving things.

As for his abilities... yeah, Conan obviously rolled very well for a D&D character. I won't dispute that at all. His Strength is at the peak of human possibility and he doesn't display any obvious weak score. But I _will_ dispute the claim that he has to have multiple 18s or some otherwise truly absurd array of scores. That seems like an power-creepy attitude towards the abilities, a notion that only the absolute maximum counts as "good", which is both a poor idea in its own right and unsupported by the game itself. He is described as being agile as as a tiger or panther... well, the Monster Manual tells us outright that tigers and panthers have a Dex of 15, not 18+. His Constitution is obviously exemplary as well, so let's make it another 15. (If, as noted above, we make him very high level and thus give him a boatload of hit dice, this goes a long way to explaining his incredible durability too.) His Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores are all positive, but less exceptional than his physical abilities, so somewhere in the 11-14 range.


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## S'mon (Nov 2, 2018)

TheCosmicKid said:


> A lot of the discussion of Conan's abilities and level here confuses me. Why would you say that Conan's level is capped at 5 or 10 when one of his most distinctive features as a fantasy hero is that he's been on a lot of adventures and seen and done a lot of different things? If that doesn't say "high-level hero" to you, then what does? They are, after all, called _experience_ points. Sure, Conan may not jump over mountains or shatter buildings with a stomp or do any of those overtly high-powered, mythic/wuxia-style feats, but maybe, rather than indicating that he's not high level, it's instead an indication that high-level characters don't have to be like that. Conan can beat almost anything and survive the rest not because he has superpowers, but because he's got loads and loads of experience beating and surviving things.
> 
> As for his abilities... yeah, Conan obviously rolled very well for a D&D character. I won't dispute that at all. His Strength is at the peak of human possibility and he doesn't display any obvious weak score. But I _will_ dispute the claim that he has to have multiple 18s or some otherwise truly absurd array of scores. That seems like an power-creepy attitude towards the abilities, a notion that only the absolute maximum counts as "good", which is both a poor idea in its own right and unsupported by the game itself. He is described as being agile as as a tiger or panther... well, the Monster Manual tells us outright that tigers and panthers have a Dex of 15, not 18+. His Constitution is obviously exemplary as well, so let's make it another 15. (If, as noted above, we make him very high level and thus give him a boatload of hit dice, this goes a long way to explaining his incredible durability too.) His Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores are all positive, but less exceptional than his physical abilities, so somewhere in the 11-14 range.




Level - well obviously Conan is not playing 5e with the standard XP/advancement rules.  He could certainly be playing a pre-3e edition of D&D though! His world does not seem to be one with anything like level 15+ D&D characters in it. 

Stats - I agree; I'd probably give him 18 in STR & CON (possibly STR 20 in 5e at higher level) but DEX in the 14-16 range is fine for 'Pantherish', especially if he gets the various 5e Barbarian abilities like advantage on DEX saves, act when surprised, advantage on Init rolls etc. His Charisma seems to go up a bit over time; from around 12 in Tower of the Elephant to 14 in Queen of the Black Coast to 16 in Dragon on the Sword. He's never an 18 CHA, which would be more a Joan of Arc (or movie Thulsa Doom) type who can inspire fanatical devotion from nowhere. Conan generally has to attract followers by first putting in the effort to demonstrate competence and effective leadership.


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## BookBarbarian (Nov 2, 2018)

TheCosmicKid said:


> Read "The Tower of the Elephant". He doesn't pick locks as I recall, but he is pretty good at skulking and second-story work. His plan is to get into the tower from the top and get out again without detection. (Naturally, things don't go according to plan.)




With my build posted earlier, Mariner Fighting Style gets you a Climb speed, Proficiency in Stealth, 14+ Dex, plus half a Superiority dice roll would make him pretty dang stealthy.

So while that kind of thing can be achieved with rogue levels, I think it can be achieved other ways too, without getting the baggage of Thieves' Tools proficiency which Conan never uses, and sneak attack dice, which don't apply to the kind of weapons he favors.


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## Pauln6 (Nov 3, 2018)

BookBarbarian said:


> With my build posted earlier, Mariner Fighting Style gets you a Climb speed, Proficiency in Stealth, 14+ Dex, plus half a Superiority dice roll would make him pretty dang stealthy.
> 
> So while that kind of thing can be achieved with rogue levels, I think it can be achieved other ways too, without getting the baggage of Thieves' Tools proficiency which Conan never uses, and sneak attack dice, which don't apply to the kind of weapons he favors.




I think the beauty of 5e is that there are multiple ways to achieve similar goals.  Tika Waylan was a dual classed fighter thief in 1e but in 5e, she can be a fighter with a suitable background.   I like both versions of Conan but (playtest only notwithstanding) I think I'd go for the Barbarian /Fighter (Scout) version because sneak attack is wasted on Conan's heavy weapons. 

I would probably use the standard human array to build him at level 14 (same level as the 1e module) and then tweak his stats to end up at Str 20 and Con 16 as necessary. 

The thread has inspired me to look again at the movie characters.  I remember considering that Akiro the Wizard is almost certainly not a wizard.  Since he casts Raise Dead in the first movie he has to be a level 10 Cleric or Bard.  I'd probably go Level 10 Lore Bard with Ritual Caster for Cleric spells.  It's a fun exercise.


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## Guest 6801328 (Nov 3, 2018)

Pauln6 said:


> The thread has inspired me to look again at the movie characters.




Wait...are some of you talking about the _movie_ version of Conan?!?!?


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## Pauln6 (Nov 3, 2018)

Elfcrusher said:


> Wait...are some of you talking about the _movie_ version of Conan?!?!?




Just me, I believe, although I think what you see on screen can help to inform how to spread the stats to avoid the novelised version being too uber.


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## TheCosmicKid (Nov 4, 2018)

BookBarbarian said:


> So while that kind of thing can be achieved with rogue levels, I think it can be achieved other ways too, without getting the baggage of Thieves' Tools proficiency which Conan never uses, and sneak attack dice, which don't apply to the kind of weapons he favors.



Why is that "baggage"? Sure, Conan favors open combat with a broadsword, but something tells me he'd be pretty freaking dangerous jumping out of the shadows with a dagger too. Sneak Attack is more than justified even if he doesn't use it all the time. He's an extreme generalist, not an optimized one-trick.


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## Jay Verkuilen (Nov 4, 2018)

TheCosmicKid said:


> Why is that "baggage"? Sure, Conan favors open combat with a broadsword, but something tells me he'd be pretty freaking dangerous jumping out of the shadows with a dagger too. Sneak Attack is more than justified even if he doesn't use it all the time. He's an extreme generalist, not an optimized one-trick.




Conan is _really_ good at Athletics, so much so I think Expertise is warranted and thus a few levels of Rogue, which helps round him out skill-wise. He never seems to use Thieves' Tools but I'd usually let a player trade those off for something else, so I guess that's OK. The Mariner fighting style would fit, though I am kind of leery of UA content often. I guess it depends on what unofficial content you want. The Athlete feat certainly fits him because his climbing ability is really remarkable in the stories. I agree that a bit of Sneak Attack wouldn't be out of place either. While he tends to use heavier weapons most of the time, being a little nastier at light weapons wouldn't be out of place. Also, in Hyborea it would make sense that everybody has Tavern Brawler.


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## Guest 6801328 (Nov 4, 2018)

Jay Verkuilen said:


> Conan is _really_ good at Athletics, so much so I think Expertise is warranted




There's an app...I mean, Feat...for that.


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## Jay Verkuilen (Nov 4, 2018)

Elfcrusher said:


> There's an app...I mean, Feat...for that.




LOL true, though I think he probably should have that as well.


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## Yardiff (Nov 4, 2018)

Prodigy Feat from Xanthars would work instead of rogue levels for a lot of Conans skills.


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## Pauln6 (Nov 4, 2018)

Yeah it's not that it would be wrong to take a couple of levels of Rogue,  it's more that you can build him several levels lower and still get the essence of the character if you go with Scout and Prodigy.


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## Jay Verkuilen (Nov 4, 2018)

Yardiff said:


> Prodigy Feat from Xanthars would work instead of rogue levels for a lot of Conans skills.




Good call. I don't recall reading that particular feat though I must have.


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## TheCosmicKid (Nov 4, 2018)

Pauln6 said:


> Yeah it's not that it would be wrong to take a couple of levels of Rogue,  it's more that you can build him several levels lower and still get the essence of the character if you go with Scout and Prodigy.



Why would you want to build him several levels lower? The rogue levels aren't just a mechanical crutch -- they represent actual life experience being a rogue. He's had a lot of different experiences, ergo, he's got a lot of levels. For all that the D&D mechanics translate poorly to most fantasy books and films, they make a surprising amount of sense here.

And what do you mean Scout? The scout is a rogue subclass.


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## Jay Verkuilen (Nov 4, 2018)

TheCosmicKid said:


> Why would you want to build him several levels lower? The rogue levels aren't just a mechanical crutch -- they represent actual life experience being a rogue. He's had a lot of different experiences, ergo, he's got a lot of levels. For all that the D&D mechanics translate poorly to most fantasy books and films, they make a surprising amount of sense here.
> 
> And what do you mean Scout? The scout is a rogue subclass.




There's a UA Scout Fighter from a few years back. I don't think it fits Conan all that well, though. 

I agree with your argument---Conan should have a few Rogue levels. Certainly not a ton but even two does a pretty good job of having Conan have better skills and being more mobile than your average fighter, which very much fits his idiom. He's not really a Sneak Attacker either, but just a D6 of that isn't a huge deal and could easily be absorbed into his general badassedness. About the only thing that doesn't fit with Rogue levels is Thieves' Tools; at least in my campaign I'd be willing to let a PC swap that out for an appropriate skill. I also don't see why people have this insistence on making him lower level. I think the fiction pushes him to be about 12th-14th level in his prime, at least insofar as we are able to model things like the fight with the pirates on Belit's ship fairly well when he's about there to benchmark it. Most of the slack between Conan and D&D characters comes from the fact that Conan's stats are absolutely _stacked_ so the standard point buy system doesn't really fly.


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## Pauln6 (Nov 4, 2018)

TheCosmicKid said:


> Why would you want to build him several levels lower? The rogue levels aren't just a mechanical crutch -- they represent actual life experience being a rogue. He's had a lot of different experiences, ergo, he's got a lot of levels. For all that the D&D mechanics translate poorly to most fantasy books and films, they make a surprising amount of sense here.
> 
> And what do you mean Scout? The scout is a rogue subclass.




The Scout was also a popular Playtest Fighter subclass with wilderness skills akin to a Ranger and superiority dice that could be spent on skill checks among other things.   As discussed earlier in the thread Tika Waylan was previously a multiclass thief who appears in the PHB as single classed fighter with a thiefy background.  That's not to say she couldn't still be built as a multiclass Rogue - she uses a short sword so it would be even more beneficial to her than Conan but the point is there are several ways to reach a similar result.   Choose your favourite. 

As for Conan's level, that's just a matter of interpretation.   All I meant was, you can get to three attacks and one level of Barbarian by level 12 to get the basic bones of the character.


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## TheCosmicKid (Nov 4, 2018)

Pauln6 said:


> As for Conan's level, that's just a matter of interpretation.   All I meant was, you can get to three attacks and one level of Barbarian by level 12 to get the basic bones of the character.



I'd dispute that "three attacks" is part of the basic bones of the character. I don't recall anywhere in Howard where he identifies Conan's prowess with his ability to strike three blows in the space of six seconds. (And even if he did, Conan could have done that as a 5th-level berserker.) To get to the bones of the character, step back from the mechanics and look at his story. He was a barbarian who, over the course of many adventures, moved east and lived as a rogue, then became a mercenary, a pirate, a general, and finally a king. Ergo, high-level barbarian/rogue or barbarian/rogue/fighter. That's all there is to it, really.


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## Pauln6 (Nov 4, 2018)

TheCosmicKid said:


> I'd dispute that "three attacks" is part of the basic bones of the character. I don't recall anywhere in Howard where he identifies Conan's prowess with his ability to strike three blows in the space of six seconds. (And even if he did, Conan could have done that as a 5th-level berserker.) To get to the bones of the character, step back from the mechanics and look at his story. He was a barbarian who, over the course of many adventures, moved east and lived as a rogue, then became a mercenary, a pirate, a general, and finally a king. Ergo, high-level barbarian/rogue or barbarian/rogue/fighter. That's all there is to it, really.




Yes but there you have yourself gone with multiple possible interpretations.  A character can steal stuff without taking levels in Rogue, that's why they divorced skills from class features.  His years spent as a thief could also be interpreted as Conan training in Stealth and Sleight of Hand during his downtime. 

I'm not suggesting that your interpretation is in any way incorrect, only that opposition to other potential ways to get the same flavour is probably overstated.   It's unlikely that any D&D character can replicate the characters from the novels in exact detail unless Conan has loaded dice.


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## Guest 6801328 (Nov 5, 2018)

Yardiff said:


> Prodigy Feat from Xanthars would work instead of rogue levels for a lot of Conans skills.




Yes, that's what I was referring to.  Maybe I was being too cryptic.


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## Guest 6801328 (Nov 5, 2018)

TheCosmicKid said:
			
		

> To get to the bones of the character, step back from the mechanics and look at his story. He was a barbarian who, over the course of many adventures, moved east and lived as a rogue, then became a mercenary, a pirate, a general, and finally a king. Ergo, high-level barbarian/rogue or barbarian/rogue/fighter. That's all there is to it, really.




I'll quote TheCosmicKid even though he has me blocked.  It's interesting that he quoted 6 different "careers" but only two of them are ("ergo") necessary classes.  Where is the "pirate" class?  Or the "king" class?  

Also, the use of "rogue" isn't really accurate: the texts use the word "thief".  Howard uses "rogue" in the pejorative sense ("You rogue!") not the D&D sense.

I'll agree with Pauln6 and others who say that 5e distinguishes these things differently than in previous editions.  If you wanted to play a character who steals for a living, you could do that with...well, any class...but barbarian, fighter, rogue, warlock, monk, and bard seem to me to be equally logical/viable.  Each would just be flavored a bit differently.  Others smarter than me could probably make good arguments for the remaining classes, as well.


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## Jay Verkuilen (Nov 5, 2018)

Elfcrusher said:


> Also, the use of "rogue" isn't really accurate: the texts use the word "thief".  Howard uses "rogue" in the pejorative sense ("You rogue!") not the D&D sense.




The original class was Thief back in 1E and before. It got renamed in 2E a bit when the bard got lumped under the Rogue label and then even more in 3E and later. The origin of the class is, I suspect, threefold: Bilbo Baggins from _The Hobbit_ (listed as a burglar), Lankhmar's thieves (guild and free), and, of course, REH's Conan. 

I totally agree you don't need a class for everything, but IMO rogue fits Conan fairly well, with a few nits aside. 




> If you wanted to play a character who steals for a living, you could do that with...well, any class...but barbarian, fighter, rogue, warlock, monk, and bard seem to me to be equally logical/viable.




That particular argument isn't all that new either. It was the core of eliminating the Assassin class in 2E, which had a general bowdlerization to avoid Mad Mothers.


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## Guest 6801328 (Nov 5, 2018)

Jay Verkuilen said:


> The original class was Thief back in 1E and before. It got renamed in 2E a bit when the bard got lumped under the Rogue label and then even more in 3E and later. The origin of the class is, I suspect, threefold: Bilbo Baggins from _The Hobbit_ (listed as a burglar), Lankhmar's thieves (guild and free), and, of course, REH's Conan.




But we are talking about modeling Conan in 5e, not earlier editions, and [MENTION=82555]the[/MENTION]CosmicKid based his dismissiveness of other opinions on some pretty shoddy...even bizarre...logic.  



> I totally agree you don't need a class for everything, but IMO rogue fits Conan fairly well, with a few nits aside.




But why?  Which specific abilities, as opposed to the argument "well, he was a thief and the rogue is the thief class"?

I agree that, sure, a sprinkling of rogue wouldn't actually hurt, but I think the opportunity cost (of fewer levels of fighter and/or barbarian) aren't worth it, since a single Feat (Prodigy) gets you so much of what Rogue would give, without having to give up levels.


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## Jay Verkuilen (Nov 5, 2018)

Elfcrusher said:


> But why?  Which specific abilities, as opposed to the argument "well, he was a thief and the rogue is the thief class"?
> 
> I agree that, sure, a sprinkling of rogue wouldn't actually hurt, but I think the opportunity cost (of fewer levels of fighter and/or barbarian) aren't worth it, since a single Feat (Prodigy) gets you so much of what Rogue would give, without having to give up levels.




Prodigy is useful, I guess. It has Athletics Expertise, presumably Water Craft for Tools, and some language. That's fine. I think two levels of Rogue gives Conan a lot, though. He gets two Expertises and thus can be good at things he's often described as being solid at without necessarily having nuclear-grade stats in them. For instance, he can have a high Perception without having a super high Wisdom via Expertise. 

Also, Cunning Action gives Conan a great way to be super mobile, which I think helps a lot at capturing the character. Awesomely fast climbing can happen because he can Dash while Climbing. Four levels of Rogue lets Conan take Scout, which gives him two additional expertises (Nature... eh, and Survival, pretty good that one) and a feat or ASI as well as more mobility. I agree Sneak Attack is not fantastic, but it's not horrible either. Conan is... deadly. Thieves' Tools isn't a good fit so I'd switch it out for something else, either Water Craft or some skill. Conan is deadly, an incredible athlete, and widely competent. Some Rogue really helps make that happen.


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## BookBarbarian (Nov 5, 2018)

TheCosmicKid said:


> Why is that "baggage"? Sure, Conan favors open combat with a broadsword, but something tells me he'd be pretty freaking dangerous jumping out of the shadows with a dagger too. Sneak Attack is more than justified even if he doesn't use it all the time. He's an extreme generalist, not an optimized one-trick.




Sure he's an extreme generalist, but if he gets the drop on you, he'd rather hit you with a Broadsword than a dagger.

And he'd rather smash a lock than try to pick it.

Conan was a successful thief because he was a savage, not because he trained as a thief. He was successful pirate because he was a savage not because he trained as a pirate. He was a successful King even, because he wasn't bound by the traditions of civilization.

If there was a good Barbarian subclass that suited him, I wouldn't even bother multiclassing a Conan build.


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## Guest 6801328 (Nov 5, 2018)

Jay Verkuilen said:


> Prodigy is useful, I guess. It has Athletics Expertise, presumably Water Craft for Tools, and some language. That's fine. I think two levels of Rogue gives Conan a lot, though. He gets two Expertises and thus can be good at things he's often described as being solid at without necessarily having nuclear-grade stats in them. For instance, he can have a high Perception without having a super high Wisdom via Expertise.




I agree he should have high perception, but I'd give him Observant as a feat.



> Also, Cunning Action gives Conan a great way to be super mobile, which I think helps a lot at capturing the character. Awesomely fast climbing can happen because he can Dash while Climbing. Four levels of Rogue lets Conan take Scout, which gives him two additional expertises (Nature... eh, and Survival, pretty good that one) and a feat or ASI as well as more mobility. I agree Sneak Attack is not fantastic, but it's not horrible either. Conan is... deadly. Thieves' Tools isn't a good fit so I'd switch it out for something else, either Water Craft or some skill. Conan is deadly, an incredible athlete, and widely competent. Some Rogue really helps make that happen.




And Mobile as a Feat.  He generally cuts his way through trouble, rather than just avoiding it completely.

If you assume he just rolls stupidly high stats, then Fighter 12/Barbarian 8 gives him 6 Feats, plus one more for Variant Human

Prodigy (Expertise in Athletics)
Mobile
Observant
Alert
GWM (for the bonus attack more than the -5/+10)
Two ASIs


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## Jay Verkuilen (Nov 5, 2018)

Elfcrusher said:


> I agree he should have high perception, but I'd give him Observant as a feat.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yeah, that works, though I think the build of Barbarian/Rogue/Fighter build lets him come in at a slightly lower level, say Barbarian 2/Rogue 2/Fighter 10, or Barbarian (Berserker) 4/Rogue (Scout) 4/Fighter (Champion) 6 if you want a different build. The former gives him 3 feats/ASIs while the latter gives him 4, but obviously different class features. With Variant human that's 4 or 5 feats/ASIs and he's got most of the effects of Prodigy and Mobile from Rogue working for him, plus a lot of skills. IMO the fight with Belit's pirates is a very good illustration of Conan's abilities, and that fight "works" numbers-wise if he's about 14th level. 

I don't have time to mess with an official build of this at the moment but will try later.


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## Satyrn (Nov 5, 2018)

Mike Myler said:


> !This week's Mythological Figure is one sure to generate a lot of discussion.





So,  uh,  who's your pick for the Superbowl?


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## Mike Myler (Nov 5, 2018)

Satyrn said:


> So,  uh,  who's your pick for the Superbowl?




Either the Pittsburgh Steel Pirates or the Neo York Metropolitans


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## Satyrn (Nov 5, 2018)

"Steel Pirates" sounds like an awesome villainous group for a Conanesque adventure.


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## Mike Myler (Nov 5, 2018)

Satyrn said:


> "Steel Pirates" sounds like an awesome villainous group for a Conanesque adventure.




They're a murderball team so absolutely yes 100%


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## TaranTheWanderer (Nov 6, 2018)

Out of Curiosity, what Background traits would you give Conan?  I notice it wasn't included in his 'stat block' in the opening post.

Edit:  
Let me be more specific:

What traits would you give him at the beginning of his career, the middle and then end?


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## BookBarbarian (Nov 6, 2018)

Jay Verkuilen said:


> Yeah, that works, though I think the build of Barbarian/Rogue/Fighter build lets him come in at a slightly lower level, say Barbarian 2/Rogue 2/Fighter 10, or Barbarian (Berserker) 4/Rogue (Scout) 4/Fighter (Champion) 6 if you want a different build. The former gives him 3 feats/ASIs while the latter gives him 4, but obviously different class features. With Variant human that's 4 or 5 feats/ASIs and he's got most of the effects of Prodigy and Mobile from Rogue working for him, plus a lot of skills. IMO the fight with Belit's pirates is a very good illustration of Conan's abilities, and that fight "works" numbers-wise if he's about 14th level.
> 
> I don't have time to mess with an official build of this at the moment but will try later.




I just can't see Berserker fitting Conan. When did that guy *ever *get exhausted much less regularly after a battle?


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## Jay Verkuilen (Nov 6, 2018)

BookBarbarian said:


> I just can't see Berserker fitting Conan. When did that guy *ever *get exhausted much less regularly after a battle?




Good point. I was trying to avoid the more quasi-magical builds. Barbarian 2/Rogue (Scout) 4/Fighter (Champion 8). 

Of course, dammit, he's Conan the _Barbarian_!


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## BookBarbarian (Nov 6, 2018)

Jay Verkuilen said:


> Good point. I was trying to avoid the more quasi-magical builds. Barbarian 2/Rogue (Scout) 4/Fighter (Champion 8).
> 
> Of course, dammit, he's Conan the _Barbarian_!




I may tinker around with a Homebrew Barbarian Path that would fit. Crom knows we could use a non-magical barbarian path that isn't disappointing.


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## Selvarin (Nov 6, 2018)

"I just can't see Berserker fitting Conan. When did that guy ever get exhausted much less regularly after a battle?"


If I had my way there would be the Barbarian as a 'lifestyle' class and contrast that with a true_berserker_, which is what barbarians are more or less stuck as within the game. With that being said, I've seen where abilities which didn't fit a character never manifested. (Anyone recall where Drizzt cast a spell as a ranger?)


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## Jay Verkuilen (Nov 7, 2018)

Selvarin said:


> If I had my way there would be the Barbarian as a 'lifestyle' class and contrast that with a true_berserker_, which is what barbarians are more or less stuck as within the game.




Outlander background? I do think some Barbarian fits Conan though. Rage could be more of a cold thing. 




> With that being said, I've seen where abilities which didn't fit a character never manifested. (Anyone recall where Drizzt cast a spell as a ranger?)




It's quite common that abilities end up not fitting completely. I'll often let it get traded off for something sensible. So, for instance, Conan's Thieves' Tools if he has Rogue levels would be traded off for some other reasonable skill.


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## Quartz (Nov 7, 2018)

TheCosmicKid said:


> He was a barbarian who, over the course of many adventures, moved east and lived as a rogue, then became a mercenary, a pirate, a general, and finally a king. Ergo, high-level barbarian/rogue or barbarian/rogue/fighter. That's all there is to it, really.




Not really. Don't confuse what he does with how he does it. Barbarian can be the outlander background, his roguery etc can be his many skills, and his fighting speaks for itself. So a single-class fighter (maybe ranger or paladin) can tick all the boxes, especially if you allow Unarmoured Defence without multiclassing to Barbarian.


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## BookBarbarian (Nov 7, 2018)

TaranTheWanderer said:


> Out of Curiosity, what Background traits would you give Conan?  I notice it wasn't included in his 'stat block' in the opening post.
> 
> Edit:
> Let me be more specific:
> ...




Early in his career Outlander of course. 

Personality Traits: I’m driven by a wanderlust that led me away from home. And/or: I place no stock in wealthy or well-mannered folk. Money and manners won’t save you from a hungry owlbear.

Ideal: Change. Life is like the seasons, in constant change, and we must change with it. (Chaotic)

Bond: Those who fight beside me are those worth dying for. (Stolen from Soldier as none of the Outlander bonds were a great fit.

Flaw: I am too enamored of ale, wine, and other intoxicants. Get's young conan into some grief If my memory serve. certainly his wealth was impermanent. 

Middle career Mercenary Veteran if you want to change it up:

Personality Traits: I can stare down a hell hound without flinching.

Ideal: Might. In life as in war, the stronger force wins. (Evil)

Bond: Again: Those who fight beside me are those worth dying for. (Most bonds are for things Conan wouldn't really care about.) 

Flaw: I have little respect for anyone who is not a proven warrior.

Late career Pirate (Sailor variant) mostly because of the Feature. Late in his career Conan's exploits/reputation proceed him anywhere he goes.

Personality Traits: My friends know they can rely on me, no matter what. And/Or: I work hard so that I can play hard when the work is done. And/Or: I enjoy sailing into new ports and making new friends over a flagon of ale. And/Or I never pass up a friendly wager. All of these work pretty well over the course of his career actually.

Ideal: Fairness. We all do the work, so we all share in the rewards. (Lawful)

Bond: Everything I do is for the common people. (stolen from acolyte) Conan is a very popular King because he puts the well being of the Common folk over the greed of the nobles.

Flaw:My pride will probably lead to my destruction. Said Nobles came pretty close to ending Conan in Hour of the dragon.


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## TheCosmicKid (Nov 8, 2018)

Quartz said:


> Not really. Don't confuse what he does with how he does it. Barbarian can be the outlander background, his roguery etc can be his many skills, and his fighting speaks for itself. So a single-class fighter (maybe ranger or paladin) can tick all the boxes, especially if you allow Unarmoured Defence without multiclassing to Barbarian.



Maybe you _can_ do it that way, but is there any reason why you _should_? Why build this guy as a single-class character when he explicitly changes careers multiple times over the course of his narrative? If that's not a justification for multiclassing, then what is?


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## BookBarbarian (Nov 8, 2018)

TheCosmicKid said:


> Maybe you _can_ do it that way, but is there any reason why you _should_? Why build this guy as a single-class character when he explicitly changes careers multiple times over the course of his narrative? If that's not a justification for multiclassing, then what is?




A better justification would be a character that learns new skills to become a member of other professions, not one that is flat out physically superior and more savage than any civilized human to the point where he can run sandal-shod over their chosen professions.


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## Quartz (Nov 9, 2018)

TheCosmicKid said:


> Maybe you _can_ do it that way, but is there any reason why you _should_? Why build this guy as a single-class character when he explicitly changes careers multiple times over the course of his narrative? If that's not a justification for multiclassing, then what is?




Those changes can be modelled without multiclassing, so why multi-class?

The only biggie is Unarmoured Defence, but you can finesse that by using the Tough feat and a high Constitution instead (i.e. bags of HP). (Personally, I think Fighters ought to have some sort of Unarmoured Defence anyway, and I started another thread on that.)


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## TheCosmicKid (Nov 10, 2018)

Quartz said:


> Those changes can be modelled without multiclassing, so why multi-class?



Because a multiclass build immediately says "This guy has pursued several different careers", and a single-class build doesn't. It's the right tool for the job. You don't get bonus points for building a multifarious adventurer with a single class, any more than you get bonus points for driving nails with a monkey wrench when there's a hammer _right there_.


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## Quartz (Nov 10, 2018)

TheCosmicKid said:


> Because a multiclass build immediately says "This guy has pursued several different careers", and a single-class build doesn't.




I both agree and disagree. It would be appropriate for a fighter-type character who becomes a wizard or an assassin (or vice versa) or similar but in Conan's case it's simply not necessary.


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## S'mon (Nov 10, 2018)

Quartz said:


> I both agree and disagree. It would be appropriate for a fighter-type character who becomes a wizard or an assassin (or vice versa) or similar but in Conan's case it's simply not necessary.




Also multiclassing isn't even a core rule in 5e.


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## Selvarin (Nov 11, 2018)

S'mon said:


> Also multiclassing isn't even a core rule in 5e.




An option that is so commonly used it's a de facto standard component of the game. But why split hairs.

In any event, we can build the same character through different methods, with varying costs and levels of success. If not for the Rage feature Conan would be the perfect 'barbarian', then again the irony is that he's a barbarian only by the standards of other more 'civilized' people. In contrast he's pretty smart and tends to know more than one expects. Combined with the survival skills he was taught in his early years, that makes Conan more dangerous than his estimated CR at any level.


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## TheCosmicKid (Nov 11, 2018)

Selvarin said:


> In any event, we can build the same character through different methods, with varying costs and levels of success. If not for the Rage feature Conan would be the perfect 'barbarian', then again the irony is that he's a barbarian only by the standards of other more 'civilized' people.



Here are three excerpts from Conan's very first fight scene in print, in "The Phoenix on the Sword":



> With his back to the wall he faced the closing ring for a flashing instant, then leaped into the thick of them. He was no defensive fighter; even in the teeth of overwhelming odds he always carried the war to the enemy. Any other man would have already died there, and Conan himself did not hope to survive, but he did ferociously wish to inflict as much damage as he could before he fell. *His barbaric soul was ablaze, and the chants of old heroes were singing in his ears.*
> 
> [...]
> 
> ...




So is there any chance we can finally put the _"Conan the Barbarian isn't a barbarian"_ myth to bed?


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## S'mon (Nov 11, 2018)

Selvarin said:


> An option that is so commonly used it's a de facto standard component of the game. But why split hairs.




I don't allow it, my Meetup doesn't allow it, none of the offline or online games I've played have allowed it. It's described as optional in the PHB. Obviously your experience is not universal.

Edit: Also, Conan Rages!


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## S'mon (Nov 11, 2018)

TheCosmicKid said:


> Here are three excerpts from Conan's very first fight scene in print, in "The Phoenix on the Sword":
> 
> So is there any chance we can finally put the _"Conan the Barbarian isn't a barbarian"_ myth to bed?




Thanks for that!


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## Selvarin (Nov 11, 2018)

Perhaps because people see the Rage ability as some mindless Hulkish-ish manifestation as opposed to just digging in deep,. uttering Crom's name, and going all-out. 

Good point.


As for single vs. multiclass, I guess I wouldn't bother playing in a campaign where I can't be more than one class, just as I wouldn't care to have a single 'career' in real life. There are ways to mimic certain class features or 'feel' via feats, etc., I just like all options on the table.


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## S'mon (Nov 11, 2018)

Selvarin said:


> As for single vs. multiclass, I guess I wouldn't bother playing in a campaign where I can't be more than one class




Sure, but my Meetup has 194 members and I rarely hear a complaint about the no-multiclassing rule.


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## Jay Verkuilen (Nov 11, 2018)

Selvarin said:


> Perhaps because people see the Rage ability as some mindless Hulkish-ish manifestation as opposed to just digging in deep,. uttering Crom's name, and going all-out.




IMO, rage can be a lot of things. You could have a cold anger or just a really intense focus. But it's pretty clear from the quotes that rage fits Conan very well.


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## Selvarin (Nov 11, 2018)

Jay Verkuilen said:


> IMO, rage can be a lot of things. You could have a cold anger or just a really intense focus. But it's pretty clear from the quotes that rage fits Conan very well.




Fair enough. I just needed to look at the class a bit more. 

So...Barbarian (Berserker) 13 or Bar 8 (Berserker)/Rog 5 (Thief)? (Whenever crunching brain cells on other questions, character-building keeps me occupied just enough.)


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## TheCosmicKid (Nov 12, 2018)

Selvarin said:


> Fair enough. I just needed to look at the class a bit more.
> 
> So...Barbarian (Berserker) 13 or Bar 8 (Berserker)/Rog 5 (Thief)? (Whenever crunching brain cells on other questions, character-building keeps me occupied just enough.)



Hmm. Most builds I've seen stop at Rogue 3 -- he doesn't spend _that_ much time as a thief. But Rogue 5 does get him Uncanny Dodge, which barbarians don't get anymore in 5e, feels very appropriate for his character, and (speaking as someone who DMs for a Barb/Rogue regularly) synergizes with Rage _extremely_ well.


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## Jay Verkuilen (Nov 12, 2018)

TheCosmicKid said:


> Hmm. Most builds I've seen stop at Rogue 3 -- he doesn't spend _that_ much time as a thief. But Rogue 5 does get him Uncanny Dodge, which barbarians don't get anymore in 5e, feels very appropriate for his character, and (speaking as someone who DMs for a Barb/Rogue regularly) synergizes with Rage _extremely_ well.




There are a number of possible builds. One I thought fits well is Barbarian 2/Fighter (Champion) 8/Rogue (Scout) 4, but you're right that Uncanny Dodge is very nice and the synergy with Rage is really fantastic.


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## Jay Verkuilen (Nov 12, 2018)

S'mon said:


> Sure, but my Meetup has 194 members and I rarely hear a complaint about the no-multiclassing rule.




I can see reasons why you might want to do that in your particular game. 

Nevertheless, I think a character like Conan is pretty hard to build without multiclassing. You can do an OK-ish job without it but probably need to do some house ruling. With multiclassing you can make a fairly credible Conan in terms of meeting pretty canonical, described abilities he has.


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## Jay Verkuilen (Nov 12, 2018)

Quartz said:


> I both agree and disagree. It would be appropriate for a fighter-type character who becomes a wizard or an assassin (or vice versa) or similar but in Conan's case it's simply not necessary.




True, but a few levels of rogue really give many of the abilities that Conan is clearly good at---he's super mobile (Cunning Action, Scout archetype) and has an extraordinary Athletic ability (Expertise). I think these are fairly difficult to achieve in other manners. No D&D build will be perfect, though.


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## TheCosmicKid (Nov 12, 2018)

Just for fun, a first draft of a "properly Conan" barbarian subclass...

[sblock]*Path of the Survivor*
In the wild, barbarians must be pragmatic and adaptable, or else be food for the carrion beasts. The most self-reliant of barbarians are sometimes said to follow the path of the survivor---although they themselves would likely scoff at labeling it a "path". In their eyes, theirs is the natural state of mortal races, and all other pursuits are civilized eccentricities. But those who would dismiss them as ignorant savages should beware, for every once in an age, these barbarians come to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth beneath their sandaled feet.

*Primal Hunt*
Starting when you choose this path at 3rd level, you can connect with your primal instincts not only to unleash your rage, but also to reach a state of beastlike awareness and reflexes. Some barbarians call this state "the hunt." As a bonus action, if you are not already hunting or raging, you can expend a use of your rage to begin the hunt.

While on the hunt, you gain the following benefits if you aren't wearing heavy armor:

- You have advantage on Dexterity and Wisdom checks.

- Your jump distance is doubled.

- You can attempt to hide even when you are only lightly obscured.

- You can take the Dash, Dodge, or Hide action as a bonus action on your turn.

The hunt lasts for up to 1 hour. It ends early if you attack a creature or take damage. When it ends, you can use your reaction to enter a rage without expending another use of the feature. If you do, the first hit you score against a surprised creature during the rage is a critical hit.

When you gain this feature, you also gain an additional use of rage.

*Survival Skills*
Also at 3rd level, choose two of the following skills: Nature, Perception, Stealth, or Survival. You become proficient in the chosen skills.

*Stronger than Steel*
By 6th level, you have learned to rely only on your own strength, and to treat your gear as expendable. When you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack, you can strike with such force that you shatter the weapon. Roll two additional weapon damage dice (four if the attack is a critical hit) and add them to the damage.

You can also defend yourself with enough vigor to outmatch your own armor. When you are hit by an attack, you can shatter your armor or shield to turn the attack into a miss. If you would still take half damage or other reduced effect, you instead take no damage or effect.

Once you have shattered a weapon with this feature, you can't do so again until you finish a long rest (and, of course, re-armed yourself). You can likewise shatter only one suit of armor or shield before a long rest.

Enchanted items are normally too resilient to be broken by mortal strength. However, the DM may allow you to shatter a magic weapon or suit of armor for some appropriate---and spectacular---special effect.

*Barbaric Prowess*
Your many talents have been honed through constant exercise. Starting at 6th level, whenever you add your proficiency bonus to an ability check, increase that bonus by half.

*Cornered Beast*
As the situation grows more desperate, your will to survive only grows fiercer. Starting at 10th level, If you currently have half your hit point maximum or less, add half your proficiency bonus to all saving throws, or increase your proficiency bonus by half if you are already adding it to the save. If you have 1 hit point or less, instead add your whole proficiency bonus, or double your proficiency bonus if you are already adding it.

You benefit from this feature even if you are unconscious, and can add its bonus to death saving throws.

*Survival of the Fittest*
By 14th level, you have proven yourself a match for all that the harsh world could throw at you---it has only made you stronger. When you suffer a critical hit from a hostile creature, or avert such a critical hit with your Stronger than Steel feature, your hit point maximum increases by 1. This increase is cumulative, up to a maximum of your Constitution bonus x half your level.

If you die, you lose all hit points from this feature. They are otherwise permanent.[/sblock]


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## Mike Myler (Nov 12, 2018)

TheCosmicKid said:


> Just for fun, a first draft of a "properly Conan" barbarian subclass...
> 
> [sblock]*Path of the Survivor*
> In the wild, barbarians must be pragmatic and adaptable, or else be food for the carrion beasts. The most self-reliant of barbarians are sometimes said to follow the path of the survivor---although they themselves would likely scoff at labeling it a "path". In their eyes, theirs is the natural state of mortal races, and all other pursuits are civilized eccentricities. But those who would dismiss them as ignorant savages should beware, for every once in an age, these barbarians come to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth beneath their sandaled feet.
> ...




I think Barbaric Prowess is maybe a bit overkill (it grants a very cool feature already at 6th level with two uses for pretty dope effects) and I'd pull the "hide while lightly obscured" bit out of the Hunt. After playtesting I think it'd get dropped down to a 10 minute (or maybe even shorter) duration (extend it at a higher level?), possibly with the skill proficiencies looped into it. 

It's cool though I dig it.


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## TheCosmicKid (Nov 12, 2018)

Mike Myler said:


> I think Barbaric Prowess is maybe a bit overkill (it grants a very cool feature already at 6th level with two uses for pretty dope effects)...



Yeah, I'm going back and forth on that 6th level. I'm not in love with what I did there. But honestly, looking under the hood... Barbaric Prowess is more important to the subclass' mechanical identity as "barbarian, but also skill monkey". I'm glad you think Stronger than Steel is cool, but it's kind of a ribbon in disguise. If anything, I'd leave Prowess where it is, bump off one of the higher-level features that wasn't working, and move Stronger than Steel up there. Maybe gussy up Prowess a bit if it's a solo feature.



Mike Myler said:


> ...and I'd pull the "hide while lightly obscured" bit out of the Hunt.



Why do you say that?



Mike Myler said:


> After playtesting I think it'd get dropped down toa 10 minute 9or maybe even shorter) duration, possibly with the skill proficiencies looped into it.



In my experience the practical difference between a ten-minute duration and an hour duration is not great. They both say "you have enough time to do stuff in exploration mode, but not keep at it all day." Especially since the hunt ends in a fight, so there's no possibility of keeping it up over multiple fights. So why not be a little more generous?


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## Yardiff (Nov 12, 2018)

Selvarin said:


> Perhaps because people see the Rage ability as some mindless Hulkish-ish manifestation as opposed to just digging in deep,. uttering Crom's name, and going all-out.





Why is the barbarian the only class/race/creature/etc that can 'go all-out' in times of need?


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## Uni-the-Unicorn! (Nov 12, 2018)

Yardiff said:


> Why is the barbarian the only class/race/creature/etc that can 'go all-out' in times of need?




It is not.  Why would you think that.


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## Jay Verkuilen (Nov 12, 2018)

TheCosmicKid said:


> Just for fun, a first draft of a "properly Conan" barbarian subclass... <snip>




I think it captures the feel of Conan, though I still prefer the idea of him being a multiclass Barbarian/Rogue/Fighter because I think that matches the fiction due to how many times Conan switches careers. It's one time where the fiction and game mechanics actually match up. But for a single class take it does hit the points fairly well, though as another post noted it is probably a bit OP in spots at least for a PC.


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## BookBarbarian (Nov 12, 2018)

TheCosmicKid said:


> Here are three excerpts from Conan's very first fight scene in print, in "The Phoenix on the Sword":
> 
> 
> 
> So is there any chance we can finally put the _"Conan the Barbarian isn't a barbarian"_ myth to bed?




You're Crom-damned right we can!

Well done.


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## BookBarbarian (Nov 12, 2018)

TheCosmicKid said:


> Just for fun, a first draft of a "properly Conan" barbarian subclass...
> 
> [sblock]*Path of the Survivor*
> In the wild, barbarians must be pragmatic and adaptable, or else be food for the carrion beasts. The most self-reliant of barbarians are sometimes said to follow the path of the survivor---although they themselves would likely scoff at labeling it a "path". In their eyes, theirs is the natural state of mortal races, and all other pursuits are civilized eccentricities. But those who would dismiss them as ignorant savages should beware, for every once in an age, these barbarians come to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth beneath their sandaled feet.
> ...




Dang that's a good first crack.

Edit: I'm no good at judging from a balance perspective, but on theme that's a darn good Cimmerian.


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## Mike Myler (Nov 12, 2018)

TheCosmicKid said:


> Why do you say that?
> 
> In my experience the practical difference between a ten-minute duration and an hour duration is not great. They both say "you have enough time to do stuff in exploration mode, but not keep at it all day." Especially since the hunt ends in a fight, so there's no possibility of keeping it up over multiple fights. So why not be a little more generous?




There's a feat for that and Cunning Action is wicked powerful as it is. Dude who regularly GMs my group just banned the Dash part of it in or _ToA_ game because he's tired of rogue super-mobility. 

I'd cut down the time of The Hunt because if I were playing a rogue, I'd throw my arms up in the air and be like "why the f#$% did I just sink levels into the rogue class" because 80% of the time The Hunt will allow a barbarian overcome (with hour long durations) tasks or obstacles that a rogue (equipped with their core features and such) was intended to do. It's a solid idea but overly generous with how much the resource costs the player (and therein is detrimental to other players, not to the barbarian).


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## BookBarbarian (Nov 12, 2018)

Mike Myler said:


> There's a feat for that and Cunning Action is wicked powerful as it is. Dude who regularly GMs my group just banned the Dash part of it in or _ToA_ game because he's tired of rogue super-mobility.
> 
> I'd cut down the time of The Hunt because if I were playing a rogue, I'd throw my arms up in the air and be like "why the f#$% did I just sink levels into the rogue class" because 80% of the time The Hunt will allow a barbarian overcome (with hour long durations) tasks or obstacles that a rogue (equipped with their core features and such) was intended to do. It's a solid idea but overly generous with how much the resource costs the player (and therein is detrimental to other players, not to the barbarian).




It does seem much stronger than say Eagle totem 3. Dash as a bonus action while Raging and Disadvantage on enemies opportunity attacks against you.


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## Mike Myler (Nov 12, 2018)

BookBarbarian said:


> It does seem much stronger than say Eagle totem 3. Dash as a bonus action while Raging and Disadvantage on enemies opportunity attacks against you.




If The Hunt isn't a duration of an hour and reduced no it's not that much stronger. If I can expend 1 use of rage to gain the ability for an hour as opposed to a minute, one side of the scale is dipping I reckon.


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## Satyrn (Nov 12, 2018)

TheCosmicKid said:


> Just for fun, a first draft of a "properly Conan" barbarian subclass...
> 
> [sblock]*Path of the Survivor*
> In the wild, barbarians must be pragmatic and adaptable, or else be food for the carrion beasts. The most self-reliant of barbarians are sometimes said to follow the path of the survivor---although they themselves would likely scoff at labeling it a "path". In their eyes, theirs is the natural state of mortal races, and all other pursuits are civilized eccentricities. But those who would dismiss them as ignorant savages should beware, for every once in an age, these barbarians come to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth beneath their sandaled feet.
> ...



I love Stronger than Steel for its flavor.

Cornered Beast would work much the same and be far less wordy if you just said grants a +2 bonus to saves (+4 at 1 hp). But it'd be even more fun if it let you add 1d4 instead (2d4 at 1 hp).


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## BookBarbarian (Nov 12, 2018)

Satyrn said:


> I love Stronger than Steel for its flavor.




Yeah I like that one too. It reminds me of an Ability for Adventures in Middle-Earth for the Foehammer path for the Slayer (Barbarian) class:



> Splintered Spears & Shattered Shields
> Starting at 14th level, you may choose to channel all of
> your fury into a single, devastating, blow. You can choose
> one of the following options:
> ...


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## TheCosmicKid (Nov 12, 2018)

Mike Myler said:


> There's a feat for that and Cunning Action is wicked powerful as it is. Dude who regularly GMs my group just banned the Dash part of it in or _ToA_ game because he's tired of rogue super-mobility.



Just don't let bonus action dash stack with regular action dash. Cunning Action lets rogues multitask, it doesn't turn them into the Flash.

When I design, I ignore feats. Or, to be more accurate, I steal from them with abandon. A player shouldn't need to take a feat to complete the effect that their class or subclass is going for. That'd smell like a feat tax even before getting to the feats-are-optional issue.


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## Mike Myler (Nov 12, 2018)

TheCosmicKid said:


> Just don't let bonus action dash stack with regular action dash. Cunning Action lets rogues multitask, it doesn't turn them into the Flash.
> 
> When I design, I ignore feats. Or, to be more accurate, I steal from them with abandon. A player shouldn't need to take a feat to complete the effect that their class or subclass is going for. That'd smell like a feat tax even before getting to the feats-are-optional issue.




Yo it's Mick's game he can make us do as he likes and I'll show up anyway. It is designed to be making characters that quick though.

Watered down I'd be an angry rogue, and if that archetype also had part of a feat tucked inside (a juicy part at that) I'd request to rebuild my character as a barbarian. It's just _too_ good.


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## Pauln6 (Nov 12, 2018)

TheCosmicKid said:


> Just don't let bonus action dash stack with regular action dash. Cunning Action lets rogues multitask, it doesn't turn them into the Flash.
> 
> When I design, I ignore feats. Or, to be more accurate, I steal from them with abandon. A player shouldn't need to take a feat to complete the effect that their class or subclass is going for. That'd smell like a feat tax even before getting to the feats-are-optional issue.




One alternative I've seen is to let everyone use bonus action to sprint when using action to dash.  Cunning action is still really versatile.  Otherwise,  yeah,  I don't let them triple move.


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## Guest 6801328 (Nov 12, 2018)

Jay Verkuilen said:


> I think it captures the feel of Conan, though I still prefer the idea of him being a multiclass Barbarian/Rogue/Fighter because I think that matches the fiction due to how many times Conan switches careers. It's one time where the fiction and game mechanics actually match up. But for a single class take it does hit the points fairly well, though as another post noted it is probably a bit OP in spots at least for a PC.




I still think you're making a category error conflating "class" with "career".  Just because somebody steals for a living doesn't make them a rogue.  Just because somebody fights for a living doesn't make them a fighter.   Just because somebody comes from a barbaric culture doesn't make them a barbarian.  And vice versa on all of those things.

I agree that the equivalence of these concepts was historically a design intention, but in 5e I think it's pretty clear that the designers are trying to break that connection.  Classes really define a collection of thematic abilities.  A wilderness survivalist doesn't have to be a ranger, for example.  A primitive, savage fighter doesn't have to be a barbarian.  Etc.  Unless you want them to.

If Conan had spent a year busking with a lute in a seedy Argossian tavern that wouldn't mean he had Bard levels.  Just that he had proficiency in Perform, and/or the Entertainer background (except for the problem that his adventuring career probably began before that happened.)


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## TheCosmicKid (Nov 12, 2018)

Mike Myler said:


> Watered down I'd be an angry rogue, and if that archetype also had part of a feat tucked inside (a juicy part at that) I'd request to rebuild my character as a barbarian. It's just _too_ good.



Request to rebuild your character as a wood elf. Then you still get rogue stuff.


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## Jay Verkuilen (Nov 13, 2018)

Elfcrusher said:


> I still think you're making a category error conflating "class" with "career".  Just because somebody steals for a living doesn't make them a rogue.  Just because somebody fights for a living doesn't make them a fighter.   Just because somebody comes from a barbaric culture doesn't make them a barbarian.  And vice versa on all of those things.




And I guess I think the "he _absoultely must_ be single classed!" crowd are simply missing the character. I agree that not all "barbarian culture" characters need to be barbarian class and everyone who steals for a living needs to be a rogue, but so what? What's the win to limiting a Conan build to one class? He's had a lot of different training and experiences, and explicitly sought those out and studied the craft carefully. That feels like multiclass to me, which allows getting his core competencies without making any really notable variations from the the rules except for a few small switches here and there.


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## dave2008 (Nov 13, 2018)

Jay Verkuilen said:


> And I guess I think the "he _absoultely must_ be single classed!" crowd are simply missing the character. I agree that not all "barbarian culture" characters need to be barbarian class and everyone who steals for a living needs to be a rogue, but so what? What's the win to limiting a Conan build to one class? He's had a lot of different training and experiences, and explicitly sought those out and studied the craft carefully. That feels like multiclass to me, which allows getting his core competencies without making any really notable variations from the the rules except for a few small switches here and there.




Personally I would use whatever method best reflects the character and I can't get rage and action surge without multiclassing, so for me:  Conan has to at least multiclass fighter/barbarian


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## Guest 6801328 (Nov 13, 2018)

Jay Verkuilen said:


> And I guess I think the "he _absoultely must_ be single classed!" crowd are simply missing the character. I agree that not all "barbarian culture" characters need to be barbarian class and everyone who steals for a living needs to be a rogue, but so what? What's the win to limiting a Conan build to one class? He's had a lot of different training and experiences, and explicitly sought those out and studied the craft carefully. That feels like multiclass to me, which allows getting his core competencies without making any really notable variations from the the rules except for a few small switches here and there.




Oh, I'm not at all arguing he must be single classed!  I think he should be whatever class(es) get him the combination of abilities that most effectively enable him to do what he does in the stories.  I don't care if the answer is a re-fluffed Paladin/Druid/Sorcerer, or a single-classed Cleric.  Whatever.  It's just labels.

I'm not even actually completely opposed to there being rogue levels in there, although doing so comes with some trade-offs.  It's just the "he very clearly worked as a thief for a while, so he must have some rogue levels" that I think is just...wrong.


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## Jay Verkuilen (Nov 13, 2018)

Elfcrusher said:


> Oh, I'm not at all arguing he must be single classed!  <...> I'm not even actually completely opposed to there being rogue levels in there, although doing so comes with some trade-offs.  It's just the "he very clearly worked as a thief for a while, so he must have some rogue levels" that I think is just...wrong.



Fair enough. I don't recall arguing that he _must_ have rogue levels because of his time as a thief.. Maybe someone else did? Not super important. The class matches his abilities particularly well and the fiction both. My preferred build is Barbarian 2/Rogue (Scout) 4/Fighter (Champion) 8. This puts him pretty well capable of the deeds listed in his prime, such as potentially being able to defeat Belit's pirates, but only with some good thinking, and gives him a good mix of abilities without totally maxing out his level. He'd still need pretty high stats, but with Expertise in Perception he'd be able to be uncannily perceptive without being totally jacked in Wisdom.


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## Jay Verkuilen (Nov 13, 2018)

dave2008 said:


> Personally I would use whatever method best reflects the character and I can't get rage and action surge without multiclassing, so for me:  Conan has to at least multiclass fighter/barbarian




Absolutely and some Rogue gives him great mobility, amazing Athletics, and an ability to be uncannily Perceptive without having to have a jacked Wisdom. Conan's Wisdom is OK, but it's not crazy like his Strength, which is clearly a 20 as he's stronger than anyone he meets, in general. 

Just for kicks, I tried a point buy AL-legal build of Conan at 14th level and he'd actually be pretty decent, maybe missing a bit in the social department but the general spirit of the character worked out.


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## Quartz (Nov 13, 2018)

TheCosmicKid said:


> The hunt... When it ends, you can use your reaction to enter a rage without expending another use of the feature.




That's a bit too good.

 If you do, the first hit you score against a surprised creature during the rage is a critical hit.

When you gain this feature, you also gain an additional use of rage.



> *Stronger than Steel*
> By 6th level, you have learned to rely only on your own strength, and to treat your gear as expendable. When you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack, you can strike with such force that you shatter the weapon. Roll two additional weapon damage dice (four if the attack is a critical hit) and add them to the damage.




I think you should restrict this to the bigger weapons, otherwise you're going to see a lot of abuse with daggers and the like.



> *Barbaric Prowess*
> Your many talents have been honed through constant exercise. Starting at 6th level, whenever you add your proficiency bonus to an ability check, increase that bonus by half.




Make it +1, with an increase to +2 later. Or how about reversing it and riffing off the Bard's Jack of All Trades and allowing the Barbarian to add half her bonus to non-proficient rolls?



> *Cornered Beast*
> As the situation grows more desperate, your will to survive only grows fiercer. Starting at 10th level, If you currently have half your hit point maximum or less, add half your proficiency bonus to all saving throws, or increase your proficiency bonus by half if you are already adding it to the save. If you have 1 hit point or less, instead add your whole proficiency bonus, or double your proficiency bonus if you are already adding it.
> 
> You benefit from this feature even if you are unconscious, and can add its bonus to death saving throws.




That makes it next to impossible to kill a high-level barbarian. KISS and use Advantage instead.



> *Survival of the Fittest*
> By 14th level, you have proven yourself a match for all that the harsh world could throw at you---it has only made you stronger. When you suffer a critical hit from a hostile creature, or avert such a critical hit with your Stronger than Steel feature, your hit point maximum increases by 1. This increase is cumulative, up to a maximum of your Constitution bonus x half your level.




That's too complex. Just make the extra HP fully permanent up to the limit of the character's HD.


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## Guest 6801328 (Nov 13, 2018)

The Gandalf example is a perfect illustration of the limits of trying to model every fictional hero using a game system.  I vastly prefer the approach taken in The One Ring, in which powerful NPCs aren't statted out.  Instead they have a few key abilities defined, and otherwise it's up to the GM to narrate their power.


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## Guest 6801328 (Nov 13, 2018)

TheCosmicKid has me blocked, but *Stronger Than Steel *is maybe the coolest ability I've seen in a long time.


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## Stalker0 (Nov 13, 2018)

I’m all for alternate subclasses but feel it should be it’s own thread.

This thread is to stat Conan with raw, not to create new tools to do the job.


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## Guest 6801328 (Nov 13, 2018)

Stalker0 said:


> I’m all for alternate subclasses but feel it should be it’s own thread.
> 
> This thread is to stat Conan with raw, not to create new tools to do the job.




If thread drift (not to mention outright thread hijacking) were banned, Enworld would be a mere shadow of its current self.  Any thread over three pages becomes either an argument about metagaming or a pissing match between amateur pedants...I mean historians.


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## Greg K (Nov 13, 2018)

Jay Verkuilen said:


> I largely agree, though Barbarian _was_ clearly originally built to simulate Conan



Why should we assume that the 5th edition Barbarian was built to simulate Conan?  The 1e Barbarian was designed to help simulate Conan, but it had not rage ability. The 4e Fighter was, specifically, stated by Mearls to have been based upon Conan and was not built around a rage ability as was the 4e Barbarian.


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## BookBarbarian (Nov 13, 2018)

Jay Verkuilen said:


> And I guess I think the "he _absoultely must_ be single classed!" crowd are simply missing the character. I agree that not all "barbarian culture" characters need to be barbarian class and everyone who steals for a living needs to be a rogue, but so what? What's the win to limiting a Conan build to one class? He's had a lot of different training and experiences, and explicitly sought those out and studied the craft carefully. That feels like multiclass to me, which allows getting his core competencies without making any really notable variations from the the rules except for a few small switches here and there.




And I think your missing Robert E. Howard's point with the character.

He didn't have all sorts of training, yet he still had all sorts of competencies all stemming from being raised in a brutal land and culture where you had to be peak human to survive. 

He didn't have to learn how to be sneaky yo be a successful thief, he already knew that from stalking game, and being stalked by predators in Cimmeria. He didn't learn how to be a professional strangler, he could already Snap a Bullocks neck with his bare hands before he was considered a man. He didn't have to learn any of the skills of Piracy or even how to lead mercenaries, because his Competence at warfare was obvious to all who would follow him. 

All he learned was how to navigate through the nuances of civilization. Languages, reading and writing, sciences, and most importantly when to actively Barbarian his way out of them and when not too.

Howard's Conan (and Kull for that matter) is a statement that not only it's better to be a wildman that a civilized man in the wild, but also in civilization since being civilized inherently teaches reliance on things that are impermanent.

Edit: not that you couldn't multiclass him. I sure did in my example. I just don't think it's accurate to say he trained to learn Rogue abilities.


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## TheCosmicKid (Nov 13, 2018)

Greg K said:


> Why should we assume that the 5th edition Barbarian was built to simulate Conan?



Because it's blindingly obvious from looking at it. And because they would have been fools not to. Publishing a "barbarian" that couldn't emulate _the_ iconic barbarian would be like publishing a ranger that couldn't emulate Aragorn... wait, bad example.


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## Jay Verkuilen (Nov 14, 2018)

Greg K said:


> Why should we assume that the 5th edition Barbarian was built to simulate Conan?  The 1e Barbarian was designed to help simulate Conan, but it had not rage ability. The 4e Fighter was, specifically, stated by Mearls to have been based upon Conan and was not built around a rage ability as was the 4e Barbarian.




By "originally built" I meant the 1E barbarian, which does not perfectly emulate Conan but sure nods in his direction, as you say. Of course, rage wasn't a thing back in 1E.


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## Jay Verkuilen (Nov 14, 2018)

BookBarbarian said:


> And I think your missing Robert E. Howard's point with the character.
> <...>
> Edit: not that you couldn't multiclass him. I sure did in my example. I just don't think it's accurate to say he trained to learn Rogue abilities.




What does "trained" mean? 

If one means "learned the craft implied by the class" then I'd say Conan trained as a Rogue in his time as a thief, or at least he could have. He did it by doing it and largely self-trained, which is something many people do in real life all the time. I totally get that someone who has the general job of thief doesn't actually have to have Rogue levels. No argument from me there at all. Inevitably the system will push a character's build so a lot of the reason I like Rogue for him is because (a) he was a thief for a while in the stories and (b) the Rogue abilities really help boost up some of the things that he's clearly really good at in the fiction without having to jack his stats super high across the board. 

In addition, he clearly studied things like languages and history, especially later on in his career around when he becomes King of Aquilonia. Most of his career he seems to be operating as a Fighter---pirate, leader of a Free Company, etc., all fit squarely in the Fighter idiom and in 5E one would simply take Fighter levels. It's possible to do these things and have other classes, but the path of least resistance IMO is Fighter for most of his levels, in terms of the abilities the character exhibits.


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## Guest 6801328 (Nov 14, 2018)

It's a red herring to argue about how he trained or what his profession was.  The only valid argument is "In story X he did Y, and therefore I chose this build because it gives him ability Z."  Invariably different builds will have different strengths, but that's really the only way to make a comparison.

For example, if I give him expertise in Athletics by choosing the Prodigy feat, and Jay gives him Expertise by giving him a level of Rogue, then I have an extra level to play with and Jay spends his Feat on Mobile.  But Jay gives him another level of Rogue, giving him Cunning Action.  That leaves me two extra levels to play with, and maybe that gets me to another ASI and I choose the Alert feat.

So the real comparison is not whether "it makes sense that" he does or does not have levels of rogue, but what are the comparative capabilities of the resulting builds?

No build is _ever_ going to cover everything that we see in the original stories, and we're doing to disagree about which are the most important details, and which 5e abilities (in)sufficiently model them, but if we can boil it down to "I think Alert plus a few more HP is more important and you think Cunning Action plus the occasional Sneak Attack is more important" then at least we've gotten it down to the essence of the disagreement.


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## BookBarbarian (Nov 14, 2018)

Elfcrusher said:


> "I think Alert plus a few more HP is more important and you think Cunning Action plus the occasional Sneak Attack is more important" then at least we've gotten it down to the essence of the disagreement.




Thank you for putting this together. We are obviously nitpicking, but that is indeed the core of my argument.


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## Yardiff (Nov 14, 2018)

This is the way I look at barbarian rage and Conan. If its not mentioned that Conan rages in every fight then barbarian rage doesn't fit.


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## BookBarbarian (Nov 14, 2018)

Yardiff said:


> This is the way I look at barbarian rage and Conan. If its not mentioned that Conan rages in every fight then barbarian rage doesn't fit.




Hmm. I've played my fair share of Barbarians over the last 4 years, and I've had plenty of fights where I didn't Rage. Particularly at low levels where just a 3rd fight in a day was more than I had Rages for.

I think the evidence TheCosmicKid provided from Phoenix in the Sword alone more than justifies 5e rage for a Conan like character.


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## Guest 6801328 (Nov 14, 2018)

Yardiff said:


> This is the way I look at barbarian rage and Conan. If its not mentioned that Conan rages in every fight then barbarian rage doesn't fit.




I find that to be a strange comment.

Regardless of what happens at particular tables and other metagame analyses, why would a barbarian go into a rage in every fight?  Wouldn't it be better roleplaying to only go into a rage when appropriate?  (And maybe not always on the very first round...?)


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## Yardiff (Nov 14, 2018)

With his back to the wall he faced the closing ring for a flashing instant, then leaped into the thick of them. He was no defensive fighter; even in the teeth of overwhelming odds he always carried the war to the enemy. Any other man would have already died there, and Conan himself did not hope to survive, but he did ferociously wish to inflict as much damage as he could before he fell. His barbaric soul was ablaze, and the chants of old heroes were singing in his ears.

[...]

Conan put his back against the wall and lifted his ax. He stood like an image of the unconquerable primordial—legs braced far apart, head thrust forward, one hand clutching the wall for support, the other gripping the ax on high, with the great corded muscles standing out in iron ridges, and his features frozen in a death snarl of fury—his eyes blazing terribly through the mist of blood which veiled them. The men faltered—wild, criminal and dissolute though they were, yet they came of a breed men called civilized, with a civilized background; here was the barbarian—the natural killer. They shrank back—the dying tiger could still deal death.

[...]

But the horror that paralyzed and destroyed Ascalante roused in the Cimmerian a frenzied fury akin to madness. With a volcanic wrench of his whole body he plunged backward, heedless of the agony of his torn arm, dragging the monster bodily with him. And his outflung hand struck something his dazed fighting-brain recognized as the hilt of his broken sword. Instinctively he gripped it and struck with all the power of nerve and thew, as a man stabs with a dagger. The broken blade sank deep and Conan's arm was released as the abhorrent mouth gaped as in agony. The king was hurled violently aside, and lifting himself on one hand he saw, as one mazed, the terrible convulsions of the monster from which thick blood was gushing through the great wound his broken blade had torn. And as he watched, its struggles ceased and it lay jerking spasmodically, staring upward with its grisly dead eyes. Conan blinked and shook the blood from his own eyes; it seemed to him that the thing was melting and disintegrating into a slimy unstable mass.




People can read the same words and have different interpretations.

The first example does fit well with a rage like effect.​The second example sounds more like a successful intimidation check.
The third example sounds more like a fear/horror effect causing fight or flight from the creature and Conan of course did fight.



Edited this because I had mixed up the first and second examples.


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## BookBarbarian (Nov 14, 2018)

Elfcrusher said:


> I find that to be a strange comment.
> 
> Regardless of what happens at particular tables and other metagame analyses, why would a barbarian go into a rage in every fight?  Wouldn't it be better roleplaying to only go into a rage when appropriate?  (And maybe not always on the very first round...?)




I have thought about Rage as a Reaction triggered on being hit instead of a Bonus Action. I think it fits better thematically, but you could potentially miss out on it's advantages on your first turn in combat, potentially more, especially if you are  level 7+ and have advantage on initiative.


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## BookBarbarian (Nov 14, 2018)

Yardiff said:


> With his back to the wall he faced the closing ring for a flashing instant, then leaped into the thick of them. He was no defensive fighter; even in the teeth of overwhelming odds he always carried the war to the enemy. Any other man would have already died there, and Conan himself did not hope to survive, but he did ferociously wish to inflict as much damage as he could before he fell. His barbaric soul was ablaze, and the chants of old heroes were singing in his ears.
> 
> [...]
> 
> ...




Of course they can have different interpretations that doesn't make another one less valid. Hence why I referred to the quote as evidence and not proof.

Still it's a bit telling that one of your interpretations appears to be the same interpretation.

So "He was no defensive fighter" could just mean a fighter without the Defense fighting style but it also makes a great description of Reckless Attack. Though I certainly see one as a more compelling interpretation than the other.


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## Guest 6801328 (Nov 14, 2018)

Yardiff said:


> People can read the same words and have different interpretations.
> 
> The first example sounds more like a successful intimidation check.
> The second example does fit well with a rage like effect.
> The third example sounds more like a fear/horror effect causing fight or flight from the creature and Conan of course did fight.




Maybe you're assuming a very narrow, specific interpretation of the barbarian's "Rage"?

I think those are all great examples of the rage mechanic.  The player (author?) can fluff the mechanics however they want.


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## BookBarbarian (Nov 14, 2018)

TheCosmicKid said:


> Because it's blindingly obvious from looking at it. And because they would have been fools not to. Publishing a "barbarian" that couldn't emulate _the_ iconic barbarian would be like publishing a ranger that couldn't emulate Aragorn... wait, bad example.




You have now mentioned the only "How would you built?" character I can argue about more than Conan. Lets keep that can of worms closed.


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## Yardiff (Nov 14, 2018)

Edited my earlier post because I had mixed up 2 of the examples.


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## Garthanos (Dec 16, 2018)

TheCosmicKid said:


> Because it's blindingly obvious from looking at it. And because they would have been fools not to. Publishing a "barbarian" that couldn't emulate _the_ iconic barbarian would be like publishing a ranger that couldn't emulate Aragorn... wait, bad example.




I remember the dozens of spells Aragorn cast... I mean...  all the two weapon fighting Aragorn did.... I mean maybe not.


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## Jay Verkuilen (Dec 16, 2018)

Garthanos said:


> I remember the dozens of spells Aragorn cast... I mean...  all the two weapon fighting Aragorn did.... I mean maybe not.




The match was never perfect, but the 1E Ranger has some decidedly Aragorn-esque features, such as the ability to use crystal balls. The iconic Ranger shifted more towards Drizzt in the late 1E era, though, and there was a general push to strip some of the old connections to iconic literary sources in 2E and 3E, particularly _Lord of the Rings_. So the 2E ranger lost crystal balls and got two weapon fighting. (Drizzt used two weapons because _1E drow_ had that.) Similarly with 3E halflings, who got substantially de-hobbitized. Some of this happened in 2E in settings like Dark Sun. 

It's not super surprising. Classes like the Ranger were adds to the original game via _Dragon_ magazine, originally. Many of them were "special requests" based on specific sources. Aspects of the 1E paladin are clearly modeled on Holger Carlson from Poul Anderson's _Three Hearts and Three Lions_, which also influenced the D&D troll (regeneration) and the swanmay (Alianora), which finally appeared in _Monster Manual 2_.


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## Garthanos (Dec 16, 2018)

Jay Verkuilen said:


> The match was never perfect, but the 1E Ranger has some decidedly Aragorn-esque features, such as the ability to use crystal balls.



Never perfect LOL


Learning animal languages was something ANYONE in that setting could do the dwarves knew many  dialects... just didnt know thrush. 


I mean if you want to be fairly loose about it We might call his herbalism = kings magic to make what everyone knew a useless weed into something useful (its symbolic of the ability of Nobles to improve those around them via inspiration)


One might also call his rallying the unforgiven dead a form of that same thing,  kings magic invoking oaths to marshal up some troops, neither is magic in the traditional sense


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## Selvarin (Dec 16, 2018)

A spell-less ranger, a druid-ish ranger, and...

Yep, room for them all. Just need to build them properly. Give the ranger a little more combat perks (or at least an extra feat like the fighter), then make the spellcasting ranger an archetype (ala eldritch knight, etc.). Not so eff'n hard. Heck, I could write that up now.


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## Jay Verkuilen (Dec 16, 2018)

Selvarin said:


> A spell-less ranger, a druid-ish ranger, and...
> 
> Yep, room for them all. Just need to build them properly. Give the ranger a little more combat perks (or at least an extra feat like the fighter), then make the spellcasting ranger an archetype (ala eldritch knight, etc.). Not so eff'n hard. Heck, I could write that up now.




I agree, I really wish the Ranger was separated off from the need to cast annoying spells (Hunter's Mark is a good example of such, much like Hex for the Warlock---irritating "spell tax"). The paladin is a bit better because many spells are used for smites.


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## Selvarin (Dec 16, 2018)

Agreed. Some of those could've been made into inherent abilities instead.


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## Jay Verkuilen (Dec 16, 2018)

Garthanos said:


> Never perfect LOL




? No clue what you're getting at there. We may be having a case of vehement agreement, here. 




> Learning animal languages was something ANYONE in that setting could do the dwarves knew many  dialects... just didnt know thrush.




I'm not sure that's true, but even if it is, magic in Middle Earth runs on fundamentally different premises than D&D. In many cases the practitioners of magic deny they're doing magic at all---it's just something they do, a technique they've learned, or something in their nature. In general, sorcery is an "art of the Enemy." (Tolkien is not entirely consistent, though. Luthien sings songs that are an awful lot like spells.) 

Spellcasting as it works in D&D is an artifice of the game rules. It clearly shows its war-game roots and was largely a lift from _The Dying Earth_ by Jack Vance. No writer needs to be nearly as consistent as a set of game rules and, by and large, they are not. 




> I mean if you want to be fairly loose about it We might call his herbalism = kings magic to make what everyone knew a useless weed into something useful (its symbolic of the ability of Nobles to improve those around them via inspiration)




Aragorn's use of athelas is a sign of him being the True King and is clearly described as such. 




> One might also call his rallying the unforgiven dead a form of that same thing,  kings magic to marshal up some troops, neither is magic in the traditional sense




That's handled quite explicitly in _LotR_. The men were Oathbreakers to Isildur who are fulfilling their Oaths to escape undeath. Aragorn is the proclaimed Heir of Isildur. Once again, this is a sign of Aragorn being the True King. It's not a class feature, as it were, as there does not appear to be any suggestion that other rangers make use of it. Perhaps they're lower level and can't cast spells yet. However, the 1E ranger did get followers at high level, as did many high level 1E classes. 

I should be 100% clear: The 1E ranger _isn't_ Aragorn, it's just got a number of semblances of Aragorn. (Two weapon fighting rangers is a 2Eism, and it came from Drizzt.) Similarly, the 1E barbarian isn't Conan, but has semblances, just as the Paladin isn't Holger Carlson but has semblances. Many cleric spells are pretty much a lift from The Bible. The way magic-user spell casting works is like the wizards of _The Dying Earth_. The thieves' guild is a lift from Lankhmar and Conan. 

Gygax told us his inspirations.


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## Selvarin (Dec 16, 2018)

Indeed. And not all things that in a book or movie occur necessarily need to be made special abilities. Some are merely the outcomes of a successful skill check (paraphrasing). Ifd I have the Blood of the Kings in me and I go to where my ancestors lay buried, and they come out en mass, do I not have the chance to declare my bloodline and beseech aid? yes. Does it need to be a magical gift? No. It is a roleplay encounter whose outcome is determined by how well one argues the case. This isn't much different than going to the Captain of the Guard and RP'ing.


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## Garthanos (Dec 16, 2018)

Jay Verkuilen said:


> ? No clue what you're getting at there. We may be having a case of vehement agreement, here.





Yes you got it, I might have thought you just under exaggerated the case.



Jay Verkuilen said:


> Luthien sings songs that are an awful lot like spells.)




https://quizlet.com/76854882/gre-root-words-cantcent-chant-to-sing-flash-cards/

The words Chanting and Enchanting and Incantation and Canter  so on all have the same root for a reason.  Additionally in context the world in tolkien's cosmology was sung into existence it's a pretty consistent pattern ... its kind of why I find calling out the bards magic as music based seems a little odd at times


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## Garthanos (Dec 16, 2018)

Selvarin said:


> Indeed. And not all things that in a book or movie occur necessarily need to be made special abilities. Some are merely the outcomes of a successful skill check (paraphrasing). Ifd I have the Blood of the Kings in me




That right there in Tolkien's world meant you had special powers though ... so it's not that clear cut. I mean one could highlight it explicitly. 

Arguably every Arthurian hero has a special bloodline of some sort and every hero in Greek myth or Celtic legend might say the same so allowing any player hero opportunities to do something like that is also reasonable. 

Not arguing it cannot simply be improvised just maybe that it might only doable because the characters are of heroic stature. I don't want to say merely  a skill check.


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## Jay Verkuilen (Dec 16, 2018)

Selvarin said:


> Indeed. And not all things that in a book or movie occur necessarily need to be made special abilities. Some are merely the outcomes of a successful skill check (paraphrasing). Ifd I have the Blood of the Kings in me and I go to where my ancestors lay buried, and they come out en mass, do I not have the chance to declare my bloodline and beseech aid? yes. Does it need to be a magical gift? No. It is a roleplay encounter whose outcome is determined by how well one argues the case. This isn't much different than going to the Captain of the Guard and RP'ing.




Part of this is that generally the only way a game system like D&D has to handle things like this is through some kind of supernatural ability. Skill checks aren't supposed to be able to do things like that. Furthermore, having a character like Aragorn in the party is massively unbalanced and likely to create a good bit of inter-player issues in many groups. If you wanted Aragorn, you'd have to accept a substantial amount of imbalance among the characters or come up with another way to balance them. RPGs have fundamentally different premises than most fiction and thus there's almost always a good bit of distance between fictional inspirations and RPGs that try to emulate them. You can see this given how crazy the stats were for various fictional characters in the 1E _Deities & Demigods_. 

Over on Cubicle 7's forum people have tried guessing the levels of the Fellowship using the _AIME_ rules. The hobbits are pretty clearly low level at the start and certainly grow to being fairly capable over time. Gimli, Legolas, and Boromir are somewhere around 12th-14th level warriors and turn out to be simulated by the system fairly well in terms of the abilities they demonstrate in the book. Aragorn and Gandalf are just off the hook.


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## Jay Verkuilen (Dec 16, 2018)

Garthanos said:


> Yes you got it, I might have thought you just under exaggerated the case.




I try not to overstate things online. People go ba enough as it is. 




> Additionally in context the world in tolkien's cosmology was sung into existence it's a pretty consistent pattern ... its kind of why I find calling out the bards magic as music based seems a little odd at times




I like the bard's magic as music or language. I think WotC lost opportunities to make it much more thematic, for instance having Power Words be bard spells and making Perform actually matter (at least for some builds) as opposed to being simply a fairly useless "ribbon."


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## Garthanos (Dec 16, 2018)

Jay Verkuilen said:


> Part of this is that generally the only way a game system like D&D has to handle things like this is through some kind of supernatural ability. Skill checks aren't supposed to be able to do things like that.  .



I both disagree and agree. I know a couple 1e DMs and 4e Dms who might allow it improvisationally but without explicit precident and well defined limits (balancing) I think you are right it's in the probably not going to happen. In 4e I am actually working on a Marshal Troops practice (martial ritual if you will) which in Epic could be very similar to Aragorn rallying those soldiers.


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## Jay Verkuilen (Dec 16, 2018)

Garthanos said:


> I both disagree and agree. I know a couple 1e DMs and 4e Dms who might allow it improvisationally but without explicit precident and well defined limits (balancing) I think you are right it's in the probably not going to happen. In 4e I am actually working on a Marshal Troops practice (martial ritual if you will) which in Epic could be very similar to Aragorn rallying those soldiers.




Yeah it could work but it would generally be some kind of "story mode" thing, possibly a high powered one use item or something like that, except in something like Epic Tier 4E (as you say) or similar high powered game. IMO it would be pretty rare to be a skill check alone, although one or more than one might be needed. Aragorn pretty clearly calls them to task for being Oathbreakers, which sounds Intimidate to me, and he did his research well to realize that he could do it. 

Of course a BTB D&D Ranger would probably have Charisma as a dump stat and not actually be all that great at a skill like Intimidate. Furthermore, having as important a character as Aragorn in the party would be fairly unusual, although with the right group it could work. Most players aren't too happy being that level of third viola, though. Of course, we shouldn't forget that the real heroes are the little people---Frodo, Sam, Bilbo, and, Smeagol (at least on Tuesday, Thursday, and every other Saturday). All of Aragorn's might is but a side show to cover for the fact that the Ring is getting taken on a Hail Mary to the Crack of Doom.


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## Quartz (Dec 16, 2018)

Jay Verkuilen said:


> The match was never perfect, but the 1E Ranger has some decidedly Aragorn-esque features, such as the ability to use crystal balls.




In Middle Earth, anyone could use a crystal ball. Denethor did. One of the hobbits did (albeit very briefly).


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## Jay Verkuilen (Dec 16, 2018)

Quartz said:


> In Middle Earth, anyone could use a crystal ball. Denethor did. One of the hobbits did (albeit very briefly).




Definitely, although Denethor was among the near-Wise. But in OD&D and 1E that was not true. Only magic-users could... and high level rangers.


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## Garthanos (Dec 16, 2018)

Jay Verkuilen said:


> Yeah it could work but it would generally be some kind of "story mode" thing, possibly a high powered one use item or something like that, except in something like Epic Tier 4E (as you say) or similar high powered game. IMO it would be pretty rare to be a skill check alone, although one or more than one might be needed. Aragorn pretty clearly calls them to task for being Oathbreakers, which sounds Intimidate to me, and he did his research well to realize that he could do it.
> 
> Of course a BTB D&D Ranger would probably have Charisma as a dump stat and not actually be all that great at a skill like Intimidate.




I am recollecting the first scene of strider and saying no the guy has sosh chops I am not thinking he is BTB

On the other hand If I built a Warlord emulating Aragorn using good nature backgrounds Forest Warden and Themes like Noble, He most definitely would have some Charisma even if wisdom was competing for the points.  (You can pretty much dump stat or pump almost anything you want aside from the classes Prime attribute) 

Also yes sure more like a subquest with a skill challenge so that the troops
 gathered can be more awesome  



Jay Verkuilen said:


> Furthermore, having as important a character as Aragorn in the party would be fairly unusual, although with the right group it could work. Most players aren't too happy being that level of third viola, though. Of course, we shouldn't forget that the real heroes are the little people---Frodo, Sam, Bilbo, and, Smeagol (at least on Tuesday, Thursday, and every other Saturday). All of Aragorn's might is but a side show to cover for the fact that the Ring is getting taken on a Hail Mary to the Crack of Doom.




Perhaps one huge skill challenge his "diversion" being worth at least a couple success (absolutely required to solve the problem though) 

I started back in 1e having heros who were high councilors, justiciars and ambassadors of the Elven people, priestesses and their guards, and others who were reincarnations of gods of justice and one who was a Prince of Shadow and I think D&D  Epic is the real of realization and fruition for those.


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## Garthanos (Dec 16, 2018)

Jay Verkuilen said:


> Definitely, although Denethor was among the near-Wise. But in OD&D and 1E that was not true. Only magic-users could... and high level rangers.



Point might be that characterizing that as Rangerish to a Tolkien fan is ahem?  it wasn't supposed to be something special to Aragorn let alone the Rangers and its kind of a compliment to what I mentioned earlier about knowing beast languages it was at least somewhat "special" because many humans seem to be forgetting it in modern days but there were still families like the fellow Bards who retained the lore - ie  among the heroics it seemed more of a choice and symbolic of that Bloodline thing again.

When I DMd 1e I made it a language option and in 4e I made Animal Tongues a martial practice where most of the effort was spent getting the animals to care enough to talk to you about what you wanted to talk about (because aside from your pets most don't) .


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## Garthanos (Dec 16, 2018)

Does Aragorn count as Mythic?


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## Jay Verkuilen (Dec 17, 2018)

Garthanos said:


> I am recollecting the first scene of strider and saying no the guy has sosh chops I am not thinking he is BTB




Absolutely. Aragorn has high end social abilities. He's not much to look at but from the moment you meet him it's obvious he's got the Eye of the Tiger. 





> On the other hand If I built a Warlord emulating Aragorn using good nature backgrounds Forest Warden and Themes like Noble, He most definitely would have some Charisma even if wisdom was competing for the points.  (You can pretty much dump stat or pump almost anything you want aside from the classes Prime attribute)




Sure, but Aragorn is also the ranger of the age---he's an absolutely amazing tracker, for instance. In many respects, he's just too broadly competent. IMO D&D has rarely been good at emulating a first rank hero like Aragorn. It does a much better job with second rank heroes such as Gimli, Legolas, or Boromir. 





> Perhaps one huge skill challenge his "diversion" being worth at least a couple success (absolutely required to solve the problem though)




The diversion is crafted by he and Gandalf as I recall. Aragorn realizes his army simply isn't big enough to defeat Sauron militarily, so he bluffs by acting like he's attacking, hoping Sauron thinks that he has the Ring, giving Frodo and Sam time to complete their quest. 




> I started back in 1e having heros who were high councilors, justiciars and ambassadors of the Elven people, priestesses and their guards, and others who were reincarnations of gods of justice and one who was a Prince of Shadow and I think D&D  Epic is the real of realization and fruition for those.




D&D has tried epic type games before, such as in BECMI's upper tiers of play. They didn't call it tiers but Master and Immortal were pretty cosmic. It's also had Epic level in the 3E days and bits and pieces in 2E as well. I'm not really sure it's a great system for that kind of game, though. Your mileage may vary of course. I found Epic 4E mostly tedious but (as you know) I wasn't a big fan of 4E overall. I think I'd look to other game systems for something on the higher end scale.


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## Jay Verkuilen (Dec 17, 2018)

Garthanos said:


> Point might be that characterizing that as Rangerish to a Tolkien fan is ahem?  it wasn't supposed to be something special to Aragorn let alone the Rangers




True, but the only reason the 1E ranger had that ability was because of Aragorn. 




> and its kind of a compliment to what I mentioned earlier about knowing beast languages it was at least somewhat "special" because many humans seem to be forgetting it in modern days but there were still families like the fellow Bards who retained the lore - ie  among the heroics it seemed more of a choice and symbolic of that Bloodline thing again.




One of the general overall themes of Tolkien is the de-mythologizing of the world as it becomes ours. The First Age is highly magical, with titanic battles between armies of elves and the forces of Morgoth. The Second Age is still grand but less so. The Third Age even less so, with the realms of the Dunedain essentially falling about 1000 years before the War of the Ring, and the Dunedain increasingly intermingling with other bloodlines such as the Rohirrim. By the Fourth Age, the elves either depart Middle Earth or choose to become diminished. The dwarves clearly disappear at some point, as do various creatures of Morgoth. The last great dragon was Smaug and he got killed by Bard. Ents fall asleep and become trees. Even the hobbits disappear.


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## Garthanos (Dec 17, 2018)

Jay Verkuilen said:


> Sure, but Aragorn is also the ranger of the age---he's an absolutely amazing tracker, for instance. In many respects, he's just too broadly competent. IMO D&D has rarely been good at emulating a first rank hero like Aragorn. It does a much better job with second rank heroes such as Gimli, Legolas, or Boromir.



I am not convinced... at epic levels one can manage a fairly extraordinary rendering subject to the same problem creating all the characters Mike is having in 5e ie overly broad high attributes. 

That background I mentioned really does give him access to the skills for  his Rangerhood and its perhaps part of how skills allowed to be pretty awesome in that version that makes it less obvious. 

There isn't anything in the game that says because you didnt pick ranger class you cannot have the *trackers eye*. l*ong distance runner *and learn *animal tongues* or *marshal troops* (epically)  or eventually be a *peerless tracke*r - these would be explicit abilities I would be giving this Aragorn (mostly via Martial practices some house ruled). But rather even without them or the houserulling   --  if you get skilled enough they can effectively come indirectly.  And there was many ways to get very skilled practices sort of pump it up a notch into reliably and predictably. Utility skill powers also help provide some fairly predictable chops.


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## Garthanos (Dec 17, 2018)

Jay Verkuilen said:


> T
> 
> One of the general overall themes of Tolkien is the de-mythologizing of the world as it becomes ours. The First Age is highly magical, with titanic battles between armies of elves and the forces of Morgoth. The Second Age is still grand but less so. The Third Age even less so, with the realms of the Dunedain essentially falling about 1000 years before the War of the Ring, and the Dunedain increasingly intermingling with other bloodlines such as the Rohirrim. By the Fourth Age, the elves either depart Middle Earth or choose to become diminished. The dwarves clearly disappear at some point, as do various creatures of Morgoth. The last great dragon was Smaug and he got killed by Bard. Ents fall asleep and become trees. Even the hobbits disappear.




Or become normal English country folk on the short side  

The devolution of the future you might call it. 

But basically his story with hobbits who are powerful because they are meek... pointing out that powerful types like Aragorn and the lot are less important ones it is the everyman who saves the day.  Might actually work better in a game like Fate. Insert Aspects here.


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## TheCosmicKid (Dec 17, 2018)

You know who else lived in a mythic past age, didn't cast spells, and got a D&D class based on him?

Conan!


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## Jay Verkuilen (Dec 17, 2018)

Garthanos said:


> Or become normal English country folk on the short side
> 
> The devolution of the future you might call it.




Devolution to the future? 




> But basically his story with hobbits who are powerful because they are meek... pointing out that powerful types like Aragorn and the lot are less important ones it is the everyman who saves the day.  Might actually work better in a game like Fate. Insert Aspects here.




I wouldn't call Sam, Frodo, Merry, and Pippin, or hobbits in general, meek. 

The hobbits are simple folk, but they're made of much sterner stuff (I think that's Tolkien's words) than they give themselves credit for. The hobbits 1000 years ago lived in the Vale of Anduin and as late as 500 years ago Smeagol's folk still did. That was not a safe place with the rise of Dol Guldur just across the Anduin. Rather than staying there, the ancestors of the Brandybucks led their people through the Misty Mountains into Eriador, which is a seriously ballsy move given that Eriador was in the tail end of the wars of the Angmar. As late as 100 years before Bilbo's time, they fight off a horde of orcs and wargs. Given leadership, they fight off the remnants of Saruman's army at the end of _Return of the King_ and the Tooks _never_ submit, instead mounting a vicious guerrilla campaign against them. The soft life the hobbits of Frodo's time enjoy is due to the fact that there's an active conspiracy to mount a watch around the Shire orchestrated by Gandalf and Elrond, who suspects that Bilbo had found a Ring of Power (if not the One Ring). 

They are _ordinary_ folk, though, and I think the stories are very much about the deeds of ordinary folk, something that Tolkien himself had experienced as a soldier in World War I. I agree that LotR is about the transition from the age of grand heroes like Elendil, Isildur, Gil-Galad, and so on, to the world of ordinary humanity.


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## Jay Verkuilen (Dec 17, 2018)

Garthanos said:


> I am not convinced... at epic levels one can manage a fairly extraordinary rendering subject to the same problem creating all the characters Mike is having in 5e ie overly broad high attributes.




I agree with some of the devices you talk about (e.g., Martial Practices) you could make a much more capable character. However, there's the other huge issue: You'd need to allow for really marked level discrepancies. One of the longstanding premises of the game is that the PCs are rough peers and are usually the experts in their particular niche. D&D doesn't handle marked level discrepancies well and neither do many players. 



> There isn't anything in the game that says because you didnt pick ranger class you cannot have the *trackers eye*. l*ong distance runner *and learn *animal tongues* or *marshal troops* (epically)  or eventually be a *peerless tracke*r - these would be explicit abilities I would be giving this Aragorn (mostly via Martial practices some house ruled). But rather even without them or the houserulling   --  if you get skilled enough they can effectively come indirectly.  And there was many ways to get very skilled practices sort of pump it up a notch into reliably and predictably. Utility skill powers also help provide some fairly predictable chops.




Yeah, I agree but IMO those are things that really hack at the general core premises of D&D, which pretty clearly shows its skirmish rules war-game roots. One could use the basic D&D engine for this kind of thing, but I don't really think it's a strength of the system. 

As an example of a way to handle it, the last book published by White Wolf that went to FLGS market was _Mirrors_. It had a ton of interesting ideas in it. One was that you could build characters on a fixed set of build points. However, unspent points could translate into untapped potential or fortune. Thus a character like Aragorn would have pretty much spent all his points on backgrounds and skills. His abilities and destiny were pretty much set, come what may. Frodo, on the other hand, wouldn't have spent most of his points and thus has a lot of fortune on his side. Merry and Pippin spent their points on some fortune but also on untapped potential, developing warrior and leadership skills. All that said, playing either Frodo and Aragorn in a party would require some really serious player buy-in and player and GM chops, regardless of the system.


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## Garthanos (Dec 17, 2018)

Jay Verkuilen said:


> As an example of a way to handle it, the last book published by White Wolf that went to FLGS market was _Mirrors_. It had a ton of interesting ideas in it. One was that you could build characters on a fixed set of build points. However, unspent points could translate into untapped potential or fortune. Thus a character like Aragorn would have pretty much spent all his points on backgrounds and skills. His abilities and destiny were pretty much set, come what may. Frodo, on the other hand, wouldn't have spent most of his points and thus has a lot of fortune on his side. Merry and Pippin spent their points on some fortune but also on untapped potential, developing warrior and leadership skills. All that said, playing either Frodo and Aragorn in a party would require some really serious player buy-in and player and GM chops, regardless of the system.




Fate is another one that handles the Disparaging front end power pretty well -- ok just repeating myself


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## Jay Verkuilen (Dec 17, 2018)

Garthanos said:


> Fate is another one that handles the Disparaging front end power pretty well -- ok just repeating myself




Disparate? 

I've heard of FATE but never even checked it out. I agree that Martial Practices were a pretty good idea that didn't get all that explored, though, so have fun with them.


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## Garthanos (Dec 18, 2018)

Jay Verkuilen said:


> Disparate?



LOL yes my typo fingers or auto correct killed me  


Jay Verkuilen said:


> I've heard of FATE but never even checked it out. I agree that Martial Practices were a pretty good idea that didn't get all that explored, though, so have fun with them.




To attempt a little on topic commenting - Conan might have an aspect of Barbaric that interfered and gained him fate points when he is younger and he might replace it with "A leader of men" when he gets older.  Becoming less lucky and better able to well lead men.

Hobbits might have easily overlooked (which might be invoked to help an ally shoot an enemy holding you or to escape unnoticed or to interfere with your attempts to catch people's attention and so on.)


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## Jay Verkuilen (Dec 19, 2018)

Garthanos said:


> To attempt a little on topic commenting - Conan might have an aspect of Barbaric that interfered and gained him fate points when he is younger and he might replace it with "A leader of men" when he gets older.  Becoming less lucky and better able to well lead men.




That was exactly how the premise in _World of Darkness: Mirrors_ went.

I did something like that in my 3.5 with tons of _Unearthed Arcana_ game. "Younger races" such as humans had Eberron-style Action Points while "elder races" (elves, dwarves, etc.) were gestalt classes (essentially two classes at the same time). It worked surprisingly well. The elder race classes seemed like they would dominate but the human ability to choose when to peak made them work surprisingly well. In addition the action economy took care of a lot of things. Sure, you've got lots of options but in a combat that lasts, say, six rounds, you can only do six things. It was less egregious than the full on version where an experienced character like Aragorn has spent all of his build points and lives on his own abilities while a less experienced one has more fortune, but it worked well.


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## BookBarbarian (Mar 6, 2019)

TheCosmicKid said:


> Just for fun, a first draft of a "properly Conan" barbarian subclass...
> 
> [sblock]*Path of the Survivor*
> In the wild, barbarians must be pragmatic and adaptable, or else be food for the carrion beasts. The most self-reliant of barbarians are sometimes said to follow the path of the survivor---although they themselves would likely scoff at labeling it a "path". In their eyes, theirs is the natural state of mortal races, and all other pursuits are civilized eccentricities. But those who would dismiss them as ignorant savages should beware, for every once in an age, these barbarians come to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth beneath their sandaled feet.
> ...




Well I was thinking about Barbarians again today, surprise surprise, and I remembered how much I liked this.

So I had to go back and find it and make a copy for my own tweaking purposes.

With some feedback this would be really cool to see on DmsGuild.

Edit: I do apologize for the thread necro and possible increased back and forth about tangent fictional characters that may result from it.


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## Flamestrike (Mar 6, 2019)

Berserker Barbarian/ Thief/ Champion in some combination.

Expertise in Survival and Athletics.

Conan doesnt need Ranger levels to be a good wilderness dude. He's a good wilderness dude due to Expertise in Survival.


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## squibbles (Mar 8, 2019)

BookBarbarian said:


> Well I was thinking about Barbarians again today, surprise surprise, and I remembered how much I liked this.
> 
> So I had to go back and find it and make a copy for my own tweaking purposes.
> 
> ...




I would like to express my approval of the thread necro.

Also, the quoted subclass is pretty cool, though I don't like that it gets two features at 6th level. And, in any case, Conan would be better represented by a jack of all trades feature than the "barbaric prowess" feature.

Really, it should just be a barbarian subclass with a bunch of skill buffs. And, mostly, the quoted subclass does that in a thematically suited manner.


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## LuisCarlos17f (Mar 8, 2019)

Now Conan is public domain, isn't it? Does this mean any company could publish a reboot of Hyrborea setting? Original characters wouldn't be necessary. Conan RPG was a D&D setting in the past, but now it is published by Mophidius. It has got a d20 version also.


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## BookBarbarian (Mar 8, 2019)

LuisCarlos17f said:


> Now Conan is public domain, isn't it? Does this mean any company could publish a reboot of Hyrborea setting? Original characters wouldn't be necessary. Conan RPG was a D&D setting in the past, but now it is published by Mophidius. It has got a d20 version also.




I thought it would have to be 100 years old to become public domain. Conan was created in 1932.


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## LuisCarlos17f (Mar 8, 2019)

Law from different countries can be different, I have read it is 75 years after autor's death. I don't worry about this, but I would rather to use something created by others and after I change it as I want than starting from zero when the rest know nothing about this world and History. My own version of hyborian age had got too many things from the standar D&D, like races and monsters.


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## TheCosmicKid (Mar 8, 2019)

squibbles said:


> Also, the quoted subclass is pretty cool, though I don't like that it gets two features at 6th level.



I don't either, to be honest. But the problem is that "just a bunch of skill buffs" are kind of boring. So at six the Survivor gets a skill buff as the meat and an exciting but very situational ability as the spice.



squibbles said:


> And, in any case, Conan would be better represented by a jack of all trades feature than the "barbaric prowess" feature.



Thought about it, decided that there were sufficient gaps in Conan's skillset (Arcana, Religion, etc.) to merit differentiating the subclass from a bard. I see Prowess as sort of a middle ground between JoAT and Expertise -- since he's certainly not a specialist either.

EDIT: I have since that post changed the bonus actions in Primal Hunt to a simple 10-foot move speed bonus, and the bonuses in Cornered Beast to a flat +2 and +5.


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## Jay Verkuilen (Mar 8, 2019)

Flamestrike said:


> Berserker Barbarian/ Thief/ Champion in some combination.
> 
> Expertise in Survival and Athletics.
> 
> Conan doesnt need Ranger levels to be a good wilderness dude. He's a good wilderness dude due to Expertise in Survival.




That's how I built him, as a few levels of Barbarian, some Scout Rogue, and the rest levels Champion. This was not popular with some folks, though, but I think it really fits what he does well.


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## Jay Verkuilen (Mar 8, 2019)

LuisCarlos17f said:


> Now Conan is public domain, isn't it? Does this mean any company could publish a reboot of Hyrborea setting? Original characters wouldn't be necessary. Conan RPG was a D&D setting in the past, but now it is published by Mophidius. It has got a d20 version also.




I don't know the legal status of Conan, but you could probably publish Con-Ed O'Barbrien as your satirical example and just have the class more or line up as needed. Modiphius currently publishes the Conan RPG and that should indicate who owns what.


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