# Planeshift: The 'Other' Save or Die Spell



## Phasmus (Mar 30, 2003)

Last night a character in my game ran into a lone Illithid (it was nearly as surprised as she was).  Combat lasted one round.  She stabbed it, carving out half of its HP with a single blow... and it reached out with its slimy, bruse-colored, four fingered hand and planeshifted her to certain DOOM.  After the session ended, my players and I discussed the implications of the attack applications of this spell.

In the hands of mindflayers, it is potentially devastatingly unpleasant.  Because the Illithid do not require the planar foci, they can shift their enemies to any plane they wish (IMC, it must be a plane the Illithid has visited personally, but that is a trivial constraint because Astral Projection lets them visit virtually any plane they desire.)  Brain extraction requires at least two rounds of opposed grapple checks and whatnot... but a death in the Plane of Negative Energy is a single touch attack and failed will save away.

The players' use of Planeshift as a save or die spell is somewhat limited by the material focus requirements.  Even so, the dual applications of save-or-die and transportation utility have caused some of my players to call the balance of the spell into question (particularly for Clerics, who get it as a mere 5th level spell).  I would be interested to know what rules have been successfully employed for focus regulation, and if anyone else has encountered concerns about spell balance in general, how those concerns have been approached.


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## Wormwood (Mar 30, 2003)

It's actually less damaging than Slay Living, since there are no consequences for a failed save.

One of my problems with the spell is the nebulous flavor text associated with it's Focus requirement. Perhaps a table with what materials access a particular plane (eg. Silver = Astral, Brass = Elemental Fire, etc.)

In the case of Mind Flayers, that seems a reasonable use of it's power. I usually reserve brain sucking for stunned foes only, allowing the Flayer to use Plane Shift as a last resort (since it requires a touch attack).


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## Shayuri (Mar 31, 2003)

The question is one that deserves a thought-out response, I think.

Illithid are, by their natures, given to "save or die" situations. Especially in one on one combat. After all, if you fail the save against mind blast, you're pretty much toast if there's no one else around to whomp on it. To that extent, planeshift as insta-death isn't adding much to their arsenal. The mind flayer in question could have blasted the player, who on failing the save becomes stunned, and the illithid's next lunch.

However, I do question the wisdom of making a spell that was clearly designed to be a transportation spell into a powerful save or die spell as well. A simple change in the spell's target from "creature or creatures" to "WILLING creature or creatures," would solve that issue.

Slay Living is indeed a save or die spell of equal effect, and does indeed do damage on a successful save. However, I would posit that Planeshift, when used this way, is in many ways worse.

For one, it's not a necromancy effect, meaning that nothing's immune to it. Vampires can painlessly be shifted to the Positive Material plane, thus deftly circumventing their legendary resistance to true death. Death Ward? No problem! The only defense is to have a Dimensional Anchor active, on *oneself*. An unusual and counterintitive tactic, that, even when available, impedes the caster quite a bit as well.

For another, the body's gone. This means that ONLY a Resurrection or a True Resurrection will suffice. The closest spell that does this is Destruction...which is level 7. Granted, it does a lot more damage on a successful save, but it also has no noncombat usability.

Given these things, I'd tend to suggest either removing the offensive capabilities of the spell, or upgrading the spell level.

Level 7 might be appropriate. Of course, it's ALREADY level 7 for mages...but that's an entirely different gripe.


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## Hypersmurf (Mar 31, 2003)

> *For another, the body's gone.*




Not to mention all their gear 

Bodies can be replaced far more cheaply than Rings of Elemental Command... 

-Hyp.


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## Sollir Furryfoot (Mar 31, 2003)

I agree it is powerful, if you wish to limit it, you can house rule you can only take willing participants.

Otherwise, there are other countermeasures, most you won't find a common resource in parties.  Most of these spells are of course in the Manual of the Planes for adapting to a planar environment, otherwise there are very few other recovery tactics.

Remember though that a Mindflayer using planeshift can't bring you to the exact location that he wants to, just a general location, and if you have MotP, not all parts of all planes are as dangerous as some parts of it are.  Even on the negative energy plane there are floatnig rocks that are mostly negative-energy free, and if a character is lucky he might find himself in the middle of a bustling, interplanar city or close to a gate to the astral or similar.


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## maddman75 (Mar 31, 2003)

Yeah, mind flayers are nasty like that.

I recall a player with a foci to the first layer of Mt. Celestia who loved to PS BBEGs to that plane.  For those with MotP, the first layer is a sea of holy water....


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## LuYangShih (Mar 31, 2003)

If you Planeshift enemies to the Negative Material Plane, would even a Ressurection or True Ressurection work?  After all, IIRC, they are reanimated as Undead creatures since they are killed by the Negative Energy of the Plane.


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## Spatula (Mar 31, 2003)

Shayuri said:
			
		

> *For another, the body's gone. This means that ONLY a Resurrection or a True Resurrection will suffice. The closest spell that does this is Destruction...which is level 7.*



The body's not necessarily gone, though, that depends on which plane did the killing.  Granted, retrieving the body if it is still around would be incredibly difficult, but it is possible.

The thing is, if the character had been killed with _slay living_ instead, you'd still be in the same boat - sure, you have a body, but it can't be _raised_ because it was killed by a Death effect.  Or if the mind flayer had used mind blast and eaten the brain - the body's not intact, so once again, _raise dead_ isn't possible.  So I don't think using _plane shift_ as an attack is out of line for its level.


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## Thresher (Mar 31, 2003)

I think you cheated the PC quite a bit there, considering she managed to get into melee range with what is essentially a 'caster', whup it for half its hp's and probably would have proceeded to tear it a new a-hole next round, thats fair enough, casters dont get to live if they stay in melee.

Did you impose a concentration check on the illithid to get the power off?
10+Damage dealt is a good number to impose for melee where someone gets slammed.

Mindflayers only have +12 in concentration so I think it would be highly unlikely he could have composed himself enough to pull that particular trick off.


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## Darklone (Mar 31, 2003)

If you don't hit the caster WHILE he casts by an AoO or readied action, no concentration check is required.


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## Hypersmurf (Mar 31, 2003)

> *If you don't hit the caster WHILE he casts by an AoO or readied action, no concentration check is required. *




DC 22 Concentration Check to Cast Defensively - with a +12 Concentration and Combat Casting, he has a 75% chance of getting the SLA off with no AoO... and if the fighter had already charged that round, no readied action...

Sounds fair.

-Hyp.


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## Darklone (Mar 31, 2003)

5ft step back and casting does not work cause it's a touch thingy? Is it?

Edit: Right, it is. And mindflayers have no reach. Have they? I didn't find them in the SRD...


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## Hypersmurf (Mar 31, 2003)

> *And mindflayers have no reach. Have they? I didn't find them in the SRD... *




5' reach.

They were taken out of the SRD along with beholders, carrion crawlers, displacer beasts...

WotC are claiming them as specific intellectual property, or something, and they're no longer available as OGL.  Or something.

-Hyp.


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## Darklone (Mar 31, 2003)

Probably all those monsters that have names from ancient Greek mythology with totally different boooodies.

Cool. You use something from fairy tales cause you have no clue how it should look like and later you claim it as intellectual property


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## Hypersmurf (Mar 31, 2003)

Nope, gorgon's still there 

-Hyp.


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## Darklone (Mar 31, 2003)

ROFLMAO!


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## Phasmus (Mar 31, 2003)

The Illithid successfully cast defensively, for the record.  Plus the character had seen them planeshift offensively once before, so she knew what she was getting into.  There were no complaints from the players that I had acted unfairly given the rules as interpreted (This may be partially because the character escaped her intended doom via a set of ominous and foreboding circumstances)... merely some concern that the rules (as interpreted) were somewhat unbalanced in favor of the 'thids, and potentially, down the line, in favor of the Planeshift spell in general.  It is my sacred duty as DM to address those concerns (or at least give lip service to doing so), thus my query here.

Three alternatives (aside from leaving it as-is) have been proposed so far, by the way:  

1, planeshift can be split into two spells, one for utility transportation and one for offensive shifting.  

2, a reinterpretation of the rules that calls for the shifter to travel with whatever he/she/it shifts.  (So a mindflayer could still send an unwilling target to the Dimension of Pain, but it would have to go as well. (This still gives 'thids an edge because, at least when they're astral projecting, shifting into a deadly environment isn't exactly a critical concern)).  

3, simply prohibit the offensive aspect of the spell.


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## AuraSeer (Mar 31, 2003)

I must not have been reading carefully. I had always assumed that the illithid _plane shift_ was restricted to self only-- like the bebilith.

I'll be much more careful around those suckers in the future.

[Edit: Ooops, left the F out of the spell name.]


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## andargor (Mar 31, 2003)

AuraSeer said:
			
		

> *I'll be much more careful around those suckers in the future. *




LOL. Pun intended? 

Andargor


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## niteshade6 (Apr 1, 2003)

It's also worth noting that the mindflayer's planeshift I believe is a spell like ability not an actual spell. As a result the concentration DC is much lower.


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## Hypersmurf (Apr 1, 2003)

> *It's also worth noting that the mindflayer's planeshift I believe is a spell like ability not an actual spell. As a result the concentration DC is much lower. *




Do you want to show your working on that one?

I calculate the DC at 22 : 15 + spell level.  Mindflayers have spell-like abilities of certain spells "as sorcerers" - Plane Shift is a 7th level spell for a sorcerer.

How do you figure it to be lower?

-Hyp.


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## S'mon (Apr 1, 2003)

It would be reasonable to restrict the mind flayer's planeshift ability to 'self only', I doubt the designer intended it to be a usable instant-kill effect.  If the plane shift doesn't require a focus it's not really the plane shift spell IMO.

Personally I give attacks of opportunity for touch attacks anyway, unless you have the improved unarmed attack feat.


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## Hypersmurf (Apr 1, 2003)

> *Personally I give attacks of opportunity for touch attacks anyway, unless you have the improved unarmed attack feat. *




Bit harsh on rust monsters and stirges, isn't it?

-Hyp.


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## S'mon (Apr 1, 2003)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Bit harsh on rust monsters and stirges, isn't it?
> 
> -Hyp. *




Animals usually do have improved unarmed attack with their natural weapons. Stirges: 
a) deserve whatever they get
b) provoke an AoO when they fly in to bite anyway (passing through threatened area), so it hardly matters.


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## mkletch (Apr 1, 2003)

For a bit of fun, when a target is planeshifted unwillingly, roll randomly to determine the plane they are sent to.  Could turn out to be an interesting quest to retrieve the character.  We just had this as a result of a prismatic spray (I love that spell - but only as a DM).

As far as the focus is concerned, it is mostly flavor, and is easily house-ruled if you find it annoying.

-Fletch!


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## S'mon (Apr 1, 2003)

mkletch said:
			
		

> *For a bit of fun, when a target is planeshifted unwillingly, roll randomly to determine the plane they are sent to.  Could turn out to be an interesting quest to retrieve the character.  We just had this as a result of a prismatic spray (I love that spell - but only as a DM). *




That's a nice idea.


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## Spatula (Apr 1, 2003)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> *Do you want to show your working on that one?
> 
> I calculate the DC at 22 : 15 + spell level.  Mindflayers have spell-like abilities of certain spells "as sorcerers" - Plane Shift is a 7th level spell for a sorcerer.
> 
> How do you figure it to be lower?*



PHB page 126, "Using Spell-Like Abilities on the Defensive."  DC 15 Concentration check.


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## mkletch (Apr 1, 2003)

Spatula said:
			
		

> *PHB page 126, "Using Spell-Like Abilities on the Defensive."  DC 15 Concentration check. *




Also in the SRD under Combat Actions.

-Fletch!


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## mkletch (Apr 1, 2003)

Spatula said:
			
		

> *PHB page 126, "Using Spell-Like Abilities on the Defensive."  DC 15 Concentration check. *




It's also in the SRD under Combat Actions, Use a Spell-Like Ability.

-Fletch!


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## AgentMike (Apr 6, 2003)

Here's a thought: why not just bump the casting time to a minute?

Limits its use in combat to a spell you open with if you've got the jump on your foes, still makes it a nice spell to go hoppin' 'round the planes.


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## S'mon (Apr 6, 2003)

AgentMike said:
			
		

> *Here's a thought: why not just bump the casting time to a minute?
> 
> Limits its use in combat to a spell you open with if you've got the jump on your foes, still makes it a nice spell to go hoppin' 'round the planes. *




Would a mind flayer using it as an innate power not still be able to do it as a standard action, though?  That was the case in 1e-2e.  Do innate powers now have to be 'cast' like spells?


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## Hypersmurf (Apr 6, 2003)

> *Would a mind flayer using it as an innate power not still be able to do it as a standard action, though?  That was the case in 1e-2e.  Do innate powers now have to be 'cast' like spells? *




SLAs have no components, but their activation time is the casting time of the spell.

PHB p158: "A SLA has a casting time of 1 action unless noted otherwise in the ability _or spell_ description."

-Hyp.


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## S'mon (Apr 6, 2003)

Thanks smurf.


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## Hypersmurf (Apr 6, 2003)

> *Here's a thought: why not just bump the casting time to a minute?*




Well, that's what Infusions are for 

-Hyp.


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## Arksorn (Apr 6, 2003)

*Spell-Like Abilities*

Interesting info on spell-like abilities. There are several concentration checks that are x+spell level. Casting defensively is 15+spell level. Ignoring an injury is 10+spell level+damage. I would assume then that spell level with regard to concentration checks for spell-like abilities is always 0.

Is this correct. Are there any references besides the PHB p 126 that clarify this further one way or the other?


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