# Sworn to Duty.



## Truth Seeker (Sep 6, 2005)

I have just became aware of a great anguish of embarassment for NO  police Dept.

More than 500 officers of the NO Police force, did not answer the call or were on duty, up and left their remaining brothers & sisters in the force, to deal with the terrible disaster within their city.

Thus diminishing the ranks greatly, curtailing those who remained behind, to perform effectively the ability to safeguard the city of New Orleans, properly.

None of them have returned.

And from what was heard this morning on TV/cable, around 3:00 a.m., they are NOT welcome back. But a process of inquiry will be done to ascertain on why...the oath to uphold the law, was abandoned.

As a former volunteer Auxillary officer of NYPD...I cannot in good conscious, scream at those, who walked away in not fulifilling their duty.

You will have to live with what you have done.

I do understand the circumstances...trust me I do.

But for those who ditch their badge and their fellow officers in arms...will need, to do one day. Explain to those who were your friends, close friends, buddies...and the whole nine yards.

Why you fail to upkeep your Sworn Duty.

WARNING!!! THIS THREAD SHOULD NOT BE USED TO FLAME THE ISSUE PRESENTED. THANK YOU


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## diaglo (Sep 6, 2005)

man is allowed to follow whatever is his call.

duty to your fellow man some times is more important than duty to the law


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## devilbat (Sep 6, 2005)

The reputation of the NOPD wasn't the greatest to start with.  This doesn't help.  It's too bad the actions of a misguided few (relatively speaking), will continue to sully the reputation of the whole.


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## Torm (Sep 6, 2005)

Torm the True, the Loyal Fury, god of Honor and *Duty*, spits heavily, and will go no further in saying why out of respect for others on the board and the board's rules. But I should think it would be obvious.....


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## Torm (Sep 6, 2005)

devilbat said:
			
		

> The reputation of the NOPD wasn't the greatest to start with.  This doesn't help.  It's too bad the actions of a misguided few (relatively speaking), will continue to sully the reputation of the whole.



Actually, I would think it _would_ help - those who were a problem are gone now.


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## reveal (Sep 6, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> Actually, I would think it _would_ help - those who were a problem are gone now.




I disagree. Gossip travels faster and further than words of good deeds. The message that comes out of NO from this is not "500 cops left but the ones that stayed were heroic" but "500 chickens*** cops bailed out on the city of New Orleans and left it open to anarchy."

I think the NO police department, in both manpower and reputation, is going to take longer to rebuild than the city itself.


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## was (Sep 6, 2005)

I don't know if I want to condemn them that quickly.  Weren't they told to leave?  I thought that everyone was included in the *mandatory* evacuation announced by their boss, the mayor.


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## Torm (Sep 6, 2005)

was said:
			
		

> I don't know if I want to condemn them that quickly.  Weren't they told to leave?  I thought that everyone was included in the *mandatory* evacuation announced by their boss, the mayor.



I admittedly don't know what might have been in this _specific_ order, but generally members of emergency services are expected to stay to help see to it that the order is carried out for the general populace.

(I live near Myrtle Beach, SC, where mandatory evacuation is almost an annual event.)


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## Kid Charlemagne (Sep 6, 2005)

I recall that the NO police, at least a decade ago, were the poorest-paid, and hence, the most corrupt force in the nation.  At the time, I think they started at $13,000.  You get what you pay for.


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## devilbat (Sep 6, 2005)

$13,000?  C'mon, it couldn't be that low.  Thats $6.25/hour, security guards make more then that around here, and we're not exactly a crime mecca.


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## Rel (Sep 6, 2005)

devilbat said:
			
		

> $13,000?  C'mon, it couldn't be that low.  Thats $6.25/hour, security guards make more then that around here, and we're not exactly a crime mecca.




I just heard it mentioned (though I must underscore that this is anecdotal) that the current starting salary of a NOPD cop is in the neighborhood of $16,000.


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## reveal (Sep 6, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> I just heard it mentioned (though I must underscore that this is anecdotal) that the current starting salary of a NOPD cop is in the neighborhood of $16,000.




http://www.nopdonline.com/rec1.htm

A recruit's annual salary is $25,508. A Lieutenant makes $39,400. Salary's vary. It's not much for what they do. Heck, *I* make more than a Lieutenant and my job isn't as dangerous.


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## Rel (Sep 6, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> http://www.nopdonline.com/rec1.htm
> 
> A recruit's annual salary is $25,508. A Lieutenant makes $39,400. Salary's vary. It's not much for what they do. Heck, *I* make more than a Lieutenant and my job isn't as dangerous.




I stand corrected and I won't spread that piece of misinformation any further.


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## reveal (Sep 6, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> I stand corrected and I won't spread that piece of misinformation any further.




Too late! I've already sent out three chain letter e-mails telling people to forward it to everyone they know.

Thanks alot Rel!


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## Psionicist (Sep 6, 2005)

I don't get it. The 500 police officers did what? Aren't the police supposed to deal with disasters like this? How is that wrong?


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## BlackSilver (Sep 7, 2005)

Truth Seeker said:
			
		

> More than 500 officers, up and left their remaining brothers & sisters in the force, to deal with the disaster within their city.




To quote a true hero- "To know what the truth is, the whole truth, not mine or your's...open thy mind to other greater possibilities.  And when you reach that moment, there will be many paths that lies before you, for exploration. Prepare for a greater journey."  
-Christopher Reeve
1952-2004

We do not know why they walked away.  Did they walk off to loot the city?  Or did they need to take care of their own homes, families, and lives.  Can we judge them knowing what we know?  Was the city not tending to the officer's families?  

True giving your word should mean for something, I agree with that; your point is not lost on me, they spoke the words they should stand by them.


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## Jonas Grumby (Sep 7, 2005)

Psionicist said:
			
		

> I don't get it. The 500 police officers did what? Aren't the police supposed to deal with disasters like this? How is that wrong?




The 500 or so went AWOL...as in not showing up for duty & instead looting WalMarts (you can find some lovely footage of that around somwhere).

At least there is a feel good story for the rest of the force...



> "Officials said Monday that between 400 to 500 officers were unaccounted for, many tending to their homes or looking for their families, and some dropping out. To lessen the stress, officers were being cycled off duty and given five-day vacations in Las Vegas and Atlanta, where they also would receive counseling.
> 
> Said Mayor Ray Nagin (search): "I've got some firefighters and police officers that have been pretty much traumatized."




Vegas sure beats the Astrodome!


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## Del (Sep 7, 2005)

edit: moved to new thread


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## Tarrasque Wrangler (Sep 7, 2005)

Psionicist said:
			
		

> I don't get it. The 500 police officers did what? Aren't the police supposed to deal with disasters like this? How is that wrong?



 I'm confused too.  Truth Seeker's use of commas in the OP is giving me fits.  Did they leave their fellow officers to deal with the problems, or did they leave their fellow officers, to deal with the problems?


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## Dakkareth (Sep 7, 2005)

> More than 500 officers, up and left their remaining brothers & sisters in the force, to deal with the disaster within their city.




This is not entirely clear - did they leave to deal with the disaster, or did they leave behind their fellows to deal with it?

Because I naturally assumed it was the first and wanted to ask, what was wrong with that, morally speaking ...


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## reveal (Sep 7, 2005)

Tarrasque Wrangler said:
			
		

> I'm confused too.  Truth Seeker's use of commas in the OP is giving me fits.  Did they leave their fellow officers to deal with the problems, or did they leave their fellow officers, to deal with the problems?




To me, it reads that they left to help deal with problems within NO but never came back. Basically, they showed up for duty, got their assignments, and then abandoned the force.


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## Dakkareth (Sep 7, 2005)

And now a third reading ... this screams for clarification   .


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## reveal (Sep 7, 2005)

Dakkareth said:
			
		

> This is not entirely clear - did they leave to deal with the disaster, or did they leave behind their fellows to deal with it?
> 
> Because I naturally assumed it was the first and wanted to ask, what was wrong with that, morally speaking ...




Even if they did leave the force to deal with their own problems, they have a duty as sworn police officers to help others first. It sucks but it's the truth. As we used to say in the Air Force, "Service above self."

A lot of people don't agree with that line of thinking, or even understand it, but for those of us who served in any capacity, civilian or military, it's an extremely important oath and one to not be easily forgotten no matter the circumstances.


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## diaglo (Sep 7, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> A lot of people don't agree with that line of thinking, or even understand it, but for those of us who served in any capacity, civilian or military, it's an extremely important oath and one to not be easily forgotten no matter the circumstances.



question authority.


diaglo "who is currently serving" Ooi


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## reveal (Sep 7, 2005)

diaglo said:
			
		

> question authority.
> 
> 
> diaglo "who is currently serving" Ooi




Question, yes. Leave your fellow service members in the lurch, no.


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## Ampolitor (Sep 7, 2005)

*Family First*

Its called Family First!
I would be looking for my family as many of them were doing rather than protect a grocery store so people dont steal Bread, Cmon, if you were Aux you should know that.
Family first and everyone goes home at the end of the day. Its easy to monday morning quarterback when your not in the life threatening situation and your thinking of your 2 year old or wife who may be drowning or be at the hands of looters.


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## Ralts Bloodthorne (Sep 7, 2005)

Ampolitor said:
			
		

> Its called Family First!
> I would be looking for my family as many of them were doing rather than protect a grocery store so people dont steal Bread, Cmon, if you were Aux you should know that.
> Family first and everyone goes home at the end of the day. Its easy to monday morning quarterback when your not in the life threatening situation and your thinking of your 2 year old or wife who may be drowning or be at the hands of looters.



Quite an amusing train of thought, considering your sig.



Try them as if they were soldiers in deserted in the face of the enemy. THey had a sworn duty to uphold, they represented not only the law, but the government promise to assist it's citizens in times of dire straights.

They ran away like little children threatened with a spanking.


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## reveal (Sep 7, 2005)

Ampolitor said:
			
		

> Its easy to monday morning quarterback when your not in the life threatening situation and your thinking of your 2 year old or wife who may be drowning or be at the hands of looters.




It's easy, for me at least, because I took an oath to put the well-being of my country ahead of my family and myself. I was proud to serve and proud of job I did for my country. Yes, if my family were in possible trouble, I would be very worried and the situation would have become more stressful. But I still had a job to do. I still swore an oath that I protect my country. If I hadn't, if I had gone back against everything I believed true and good, I couldn't have lived with myself.


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## Psionicist (Sep 7, 2005)

Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> They ran away like little children threatened with a spanking.




I'm not following you. You mean it's the childrens duty not to run away when you threaten to spank them?


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## Truth Seeker (Sep 7, 2005)

BlackSilver said:
			
		

> To quote a true hero- "To know what the truth is, the whole truth, not mine or your's...open thy mind to other greater possibilities.  And when you reach that moment, there will be many paths that lies before you, for exploration. Prepare for a greater journey."
> -Christopher Reeve
> 1952-2004
> 
> ...




This is the first time ever, I have ever seen anyone quoted my own personal sig...and what I mean by that...I wrote it in stages to the current verison. When I first came here to this site.

But to the main point. I was very restraint in not showing my true dismay for the situation. Too many factors involved, to cause such a dessertion. But seeing it this morning...was a major shock to the system. It was like a battlion size group, just up...and vanishing without a word or trace.

I understand the panic.
I understand the fear.

But heaven help you...

Sorry...need to stop there. For my own sake. I need to stop there.


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## Truth Seeker (Sep 7, 2005)

Tarrasque Wrangler said:
			
		

> I'm confused too.  Truth Seeker's use of commas in the OP is giving me fits.  Did they leave their fellow officers to deal with the problems, or did they leave their fellow officers, to deal with the problems?




Sorry about the commas.

Just going by memory...the officers in question, did either this. Did not show up when called, or were there and just walked off. In either case, 500+ is not a easy thing to ignore.

Especially when their help was needed at the most dire moment.


They.
Are.
Not.
There.
.


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## Old One (Sep 7, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> It's easy, for me at least, because I took an oath to put the well-being of my country ahead of my family and myself. I was proud to serve and proud of job I did for my country. Yes, if my family were in possible trouble, I would be very worried and the situation would have become more stressful. But I still had a job to do. I still swore an oath that I protect my country. If I hadn't, if I had gone back against everything I believed true and good, I couldn't have lived with myself.




Agree 100%.  There is an immutable (IMO) social compact between those who take an oath (be they soldiers, police officers, firefighters or other specialties cut of similar cloth) and those they have sworn to protect, serve and defend.  Just as their are few things more noble (IMO) than placing others interest, safety and well-being ahead of your own - even to the point of sacrificing your own life in that service, there are few things more ignoble than than breaking that compact, regardless of the reason.

Organizations such as police, military, firefighters and other first-responders are built on the foundation of selfless service, shared sacrifice and teamwork.  If a portion of that interdependent team decides to "take their ball and go home" - they endanger not only those they purport to serve, they also endanger their fellow oath-takers, whose task(s) become that much more difficult, dangerous and even deadly.

As an adherent to such an oath in the past, I understand that it isn't very fashionable in some circles today to place selfless service to others above one's own desires and self-interest...but without men and women who are willing to do so, society would quickly cease to function.  In ancient times (and much of fantasy literature, for that matter), few were despised more than Oathbreakers (LOTR "Paths of the Dead", anyone?)...

Are there extenuating circumstances for these NO police officers?  Perhaps.  Low pay, rampant crime, leadership rife with corruption and nepotism, poor equipment, poor training, poor planning and a sense of overwhelming helplessness in the face of Mother Nature's fury...but that doesn't excuse deserting in the face of crisis.

My 2 coppers...

~ OO


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## Del (Sep 7, 2005)

As a rule I generally despise shrinks, but I love this dude who reponded in NO by packing a backpack full of medical supplies and a glock 9 mil with hollowpoints. This dude is just cool.


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## Truth Seeker (Sep 7, 2005)

Del said:
			
		

> As a rule I generally despise shrinks, but I love this dude who reponded in NO by packing a backpack full of medical supplies and a glock 9 mil with hollowpoints. This dude is just cool.




Just saw that on CNN...he came back to help, but not without protection.

On a another note, Anderson Cooper CNN reporter, was just asked by Nancy Grace of CNN, when is he coming back home.

He said.

He not...

He will not leave New Orleans.

Nothing more was added.

From that alone...I know and feel the changes stirring  in that man...he will be never the same again.


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## Del (Sep 7, 2005)

Truth Seeker said:
			
		

> On a another note, Anderson Cooper CNN reporter, was just asked by Nancy Grace of CNN, when is he coming back home.
> 
> He said.
> 
> ...




That might be the e.coli talking. He's been working recovery as an imbedded reporter. Stress too, but reporters have a long history in managing hostile enviroments. He'll be ok, but it would be an interesting story if he quit to work in a different type of service.


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## Del (Sep 7, 2005)

*CNN comment*

I get a kick out of this incredible CNN crew dispensing info to all quite bravely, then Catherine Calloway comes on the overnight shift with the general aura and attitude like she's an anchorwoman from the _Running Man_.

Smile Cathy! You'll feel better!


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## wingsandsword (Sep 7, 2005)

Del said:
			
		

> As a rule I generally despise shrinks, but I love this dude who reponded in NO by packing a backpack full of medical supplies and a glock 9 mil with hollowpoints. This dude is just cool.



Modern day adventurer (good aligned), there was a crisis, he rose to the occasion by grabbing some gear and going off to help people in need, without regard for the danger.  Times like this can really bring out the heroism in some people.

In fact, that gives me an idea, a d20 Modern adventure with the PC's as rescue workers in New Orleans, protecting the survivors from looters and fires, rescuing survivors from flooded areas, navigating the dungeon-crawl like conditions inside some buildings trying to find someone shouting for help.  Write it up, then sell the .pdf with all the proceeds going to a relief effort.


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## Del (Sep 7, 2005)

wingsandsword said:
			
		

> In fact, that gives me an idea, a d20 Modern adventure with the PC's as rescue workers in New Orleans, protecting the survivors from looters and fires, rescuing survivors from flooded areas, navigating the dungeon-crawl like conditions inside some buildings trying to find someone shouting for help.  Write it up, then sell the .pdf with all the proceeds going to a relief effort.




I would so play that.


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## Del (Sep 7, 2005)

Well just now the Mayor of NO has ordered all non recovery people in the city to be forcibly removed.

This will get bad. Ya know, considering how things have developed to this point.


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## Ralts Bloodthorne (Sep 7, 2005)

Martial law, baby.

Otherwise, it'll be bad.

Of course, it'll be bad either way.

BUT, from what I've been hearing the place is about a warm day away from becoming the world's largest bio-warfare petri dish.


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## Del (Sep 7, 2005)

Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> BUT, from what I've been hearing the place is about a warm day away from becoming the world's largest bio-warfare petri dish.




_Imagines Anderson Cooper wandering around on camera with Diptheria_

Ya, the water looks so enticing. Mmmm.


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## Truth Seeker (Sep 7, 2005)

Del said:
			
		

> Well just now the Mayor of NO has ordered all non recovery people in the city to be forcibly removed.
> 
> This will get bad. Ya know, considering how things have developed to this point.




This decision is for the safety of all. The water supply is kaput, no power in some areas. And disease is on the rise, but will get worse, with the dead not recovered yet.

Added note: Although there were 500 former police officers had left.

1200+ stayed, and did their jobs with all that is against them.


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## Del (Sep 7, 2005)

Truth Seeker said:
			
		

> This decision is for the safety of all. The water supply is kaput, no power in some areas. And disease is on the rise, but will get worse, with the dead not recovered yet.




I agree. I'm just saying that no one has appeared to competently lead through this catastrophe.

So I'm guessing the next developments will not be anymore positive then what I've seen. I deeply respect the american military but from the looks of these Guardsmen trying to hold down a suburb, I would say the best are doing good duty in Iraq.


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## Truth Seeker (Sep 7, 2005)

wingsandsword said:
			
		

> Modern day adventurer (good aligned), there was a crisis, he rose to the occasion by grabbing some gear and going off to help people in need, without regard for the danger.  Times like this can really bring out the heroism in some people.
> 
> In fact, that gives me an idea, a d20 Modern adventure with the PC's as rescue workers in New Orleans, protecting the survivors from looters and fires, rescuing survivors from flooded areas, navigating the dungeon-crawl like conditions inside some buildings trying to find someone shouting for help.  Write it up, then sell the .pdf with all the proceeds going to a relief effort.




As much this might have the making of a great game...you will need to consider the physicological effects on those who might the play it.


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## Del (Sep 7, 2005)

Truth Seeker said:
			
		

> As much this might have the making of a great game...you will need to consider the physicological effects on those who might the play it.




I think gaming adults would be fine, just don't ask a flood survivor to play it.


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## Truth Seeker (Sep 7, 2005)

Del said:
			
		

> I think gaming adults would be fine, just don't ask a flood survivor to play it.




Even with that...it still could mess with an adult mind, may I suggest that this indirect subject discussion ends here. And go back to the main topic. I wish not explode on a well-possible seemily innocent  propose idea. Not everything in life, needs to be made into a game...not everything.


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## Psionicist (Sep 7, 2005)

Truth Seeker said:
			
		

> This decision is for the safety of all. The water supply is kaput, no power in some areas. And disease is on the rise, but will get worse, with the dead not recovered yet.




How do you recover from death?


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## Ralts Bloodthorne (Sep 7, 2005)

Recovery: As in gather them up from where the disaster has left them.

English isn't your first language, is it? (No, I'm not going for a cheap shot here)


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## Truth Seeker (Sep 7, 2005)

Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> Recovery: As in gather them up from where the disaster has left them.
> 
> English isn't your first language, is it? (No, I'm not going for a cheap shot here)



Thanks for not doing so...


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## Truth Seeker (Sep 7, 2005)

Psionicist said:
			
		

> How do you recover from death?




You answered your own question.

Stubborness will not help those who wish to defy the order to stay. It is been admitted...the city, is NOT functional, in any means. Just don't add the count of those who were less fortunate, in not surviving the floods first off.


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## Ampolitor (Sep 8, 2005)

*right!*

"Quite an amusing train of thought, considering your sig.



Try them as if they were soldiers in deserted in the face of the enemy. THey had a sworn duty to uphold, they represented not only the law, but the government promise to assist it's citizens in times of dire straights.

They ran away like little children threatened with a spanking"



You have got to be kidding me with that statement, first of all that is NOTHING like being a soldier, Im a combat veteran from 2 campaigns,  and Ive been a cop for over 9 years and I was there for 911 in NYC. If something like that, utter devastation happened you would go protect your family. There is no way you can tell me that you would stand there and say i have to protect the city when your very own child could be drowning a few blocks away, c'mon lets get real.The Public does not come before your family, ANY cop will tell you that. Now Im not saying that all of them were doing that, to the ones who left because the going got tough, well shame on them for giving up.
Being a cop has an oath, is it the same as the military, No Way and to compare it is silly. I love being a cop and Yes Im a good one I made LT in 9 years. I dont agree with all of them leaving but to condemn them all without knowing the factors is ignorant and thats the same type of people who listen to and believe everything they see on the news.


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## Rel (Sep 8, 2005)

I'm a huge proponent of the concept of duty and honoring your commitments.  I take every chance I can to thank and shake the hands of those who serve in our military as well as police and emergency personel.  There is no higher calling in my mind than to place your own safety and comfort at risk for the sake of your fellow man.  I've got several family members in that line of work and they take what they do and the obligations that come with it very seriously.

That said, these circumstances are far beyond what anybody could typically prepare themselves for.  There is little doubt in my own mind that the majority of the missing police officers would do their best to execute the duties required of them, even if it meant risking or perhaps even giving up their own lives.  

But therein lies the problem.  I think that in many cases the missing officers were protecting those closest to them, family and friends, rather than the citizens at large.  I shudder to think what a terrible choice it would be to make and I'm guessing that it will haunt them (in more ways than one) for the rest of their lives.

I think it is a bit uncharitable to judge them the way you would a deserting soldier.  A soldier is not typically in fear of what terrible things could be happening to his children at that very moment.  A brave man is willing to sacrifice his life for the safety of his fellow men in uniform.  But does it make him less brave to sacrifice his honor, dignity and perhaps career for the safety of his family?  I'm not prepared to say that.

It may come to pass that we discover that many of those who failed to report to duty did so for less noble reasons than this.  If so then I would find that deplorable.  But it is far too soon to be judging these folks for my own comfort.


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## Torm (Sep 8, 2005)

Yes, and if they had taken time, on duty or not, to go check on their own families, and then went back to work, I'd be all for it - heck, their families are some of the people they are sworn to protect, and a VERY good argument could be made that not letting them take care of that first could impair their ability to perform their duties.

It's the part where they THEN ran for the hills that disgusts me.


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## Ralts Bloodthorne (Sep 8, 2005)

Ampolitor said:
			
		

> You have got to be kidding me with that statement, first of all that is NOTHING like being a soldier, Im a combat veteran from 2 campaigns,  and Ive been a cop for over 9 years and I was there for 911 in NYC. If something like that, utter devastation happened you would go protect your family. There is no way you can tell me that you would stand there and say i have to protect the city when your very own child could be drowning a few blocks away, c'mon lets get real.The Public does not come before your family, ANY cop will tell you that. Now Im not saying that all of them were doing that, to the ones who left because the going got tough, well shame on them for giving up.
> Being a cop has an oath, is it the same as the military, No Way and to compare it is silly. I love being a cop and Yes Im a good one I made LT in 9 years. I dont agree with all of them leaving but to condemn them all without knowing the factors is ignorant and thats the same type of people who listen to and believe everything they see on the news.



Fine, you may not have stayed.

I would have. When my wife's unit was attacked, I stayed at my post, did my job, and drove on, not knowing if she was alive or dead, and not finding out for hours. When the Chehalis River finally overflowed it's banks, flooding where my house was, I stayed at my post, and kept slinging sandbags, instead of abandoning my job and running off to save my family.

Yes, I will state that you have to stand there and protect the city when your own child could be drowning. That's my personal belief, the same standard I held myself to and still do. While you make your own decisions on what you do, I still reserve the right to compare the actions to my own sense of duty.

The cops in New Orleans failed thier duty, left thier posts, and abandoned those in need. I'm sure they will all have excuses that tug at the public's heart strings, and I'm sure that thier oath isn't taken as seriously by them as the military one was to me, but it won't excuse them in my book. They abandoned the public, and ceased protecting rescue services. They allowed looters and scumbags to take over sections of the city. The excuse put forward involved danger, nothing left to protect, it was useless, and all kinds of defeatest crap.

If it was so terrible, why did many many more police stay on the job? Didn't they care about thier families? Didn't they have loved ones? Were they cold hearted ruthless monsters? They left for the same reason that many National Guardsmen and Active Duty desert when war breaks out. They're in it while it's easy, but as soon as it's dangerous, they're out of there.

By your reasoning, whenever a disaster hits, those emergency services personell are within perfectly reasonable behavior in blowing off everyone else and running to see if thier family is OK. You listed 9-11 in your statement. What if everyone involved in emergency services had quit the force and ran home to protect thier family? What if every single member of emergency services abandoned thier duty in order to keep thier family safe during an eathquake or hurricane or flood or tornado? What is the use in having them around, when at the first sign of a situation when they will be desperately needed, it's OK for them to abandon thier duty.

Duty. Honor. Courage. They are more than words to be thrown about when it is convient, when the job or mission is easy. The true test of a person is whether or not they stick when it's difficult.

There. Is. No. Excuse. For. Deserting.


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## Del (Sep 8, 2005)

I would have stayed but I have been accused jokingly by Vancouver PD officers that I have a "duty complex". I never had much but involvement in policing and information trafficking.

I wouldn't cast stones though at lowly paid NO personell who wanted to leave to care for their childrens' safety.


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## Truth Seeker (Sep 8, 2005)

Okay, as it stands, just catching this on CNN, as mentioned by others here, with the notion. That the choice of protecting friends, family, loved ones....played as a major factor with the mass exodus. And also, there is a possibility that some may have died in the flooding as well.

And among those who exited as well, could not mentally deal with what was happening either.

As of now, those who left...are returning. Some of them.

And also, as advertise...no personal snipping  on this thread, please.


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## Ralts Bloodthorne (Sep 8, 2005)

Truth Seeker said:
			
		

> Okay, as it stands, just catching this on CNN, as mentioned by others here, with the notion. That the choice of protecting friends, family, loved ones....played as a major factor with the mass exodus. And also, there is a possibility that some may have died in the flooding as well.
> 
> And among those who exited as well, could not mentally deal with what was happening either.
> 
> ...



Well, if I came across as personal sniping, I apologize. I'm in a lot of physical pain and trying to drive on, but you're right, that is no excuse.

I am not talking about the ones who died, or the ones who cracked mentally. I'm talking about the ones who turned in their sidearms and badges for BS excuses. Some of which went out and looted right afterwards (and were caught on TV doing it). I'm talking about the ones that when the going got rough, they got going on down the road.


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## Truth Seeker (Sep 8, 2005)

Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> Well, if I came across as personal sniping, I apologize. I'm in a lot of physical pain and trying to drive on, but you're right, that is no excuse.
> 
> I am not talking about the ones who died, or the ones who cracked mentally. I'm talking about the ones who turned in their sidearms and badges for BS excuses. Some of which went out and looted right afterwards (and were caught on TV doing it). I'm talking about the ones that when the going got rough, they got going on down the road.



np


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## Simplicity (Sep 8, 2005)

Don't forget that many of those people may have
1) Died in the flood.
2) Been trapped by the flood waters (and possibly died at this point).
3) Had families who had to evacuate.  (No one, and I mean no one is going to leave their family in eminent danger to go "defend the city").  Get the family to safety first... Then come back.  Though if your trapped in the Superdome, that may not be an option.

A job as a police officer is a *job*.  You don't take an oath to forsake your life and blood for 16-25 bucks an hour.


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## wingsandsword (Sep 8, 2005)

Simplicity said:
			
		

> A job as a police officer is a *job*.  You don't take an oath to forsake your life and blood for 16-25 bucks an hour.



You haven't seen what enlisted soldiers are paid, have you?  Compared to a civilian full-time job, they'd love to be making what those policemen are being paid.  If you're a cop, you know that your oath to uphold the law and may well lead to your death, it happens, it happens all the time.

(http://images.military.com/Content/MoreContent1/?file=Pay_Special_E) A nice introduction to the pay of an average active-duty enlisted soldier.  Averaging it out, if they were getting the same pay for a normal 40-hour-a-week job this sample E-4 with 3 years in the service would be making $15 an hour before taxes.


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## reveal (Sep 8, 2005)

Simplicity said:
			
		

> A job as a police officer is a *job*.  You don't take an oath to forsake your life and blood for 16-25 bucks an hour.




Yes you do. Being a cop, or being in the military, is not just a *job*. It's a commitment. I've met many civilians who don't understand the concept.


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## Ampolitor (Sep 8, 2005)

*You dont get it*

You still dont understand and your still comparing being a cop to the military, its TWO different things. I have been both and trust me they are not the same in any way.
First off many of the cops did die in the flood, I have a few officers down there from my department who checked in with us. The police dept down there dont have uniforms, half dont have weapons and there are TWO yes TWO vehicles that they have. Its kind of hard to stop looters without weapons, what where they gonna use harsh language? You seem to forget that the police dept was washed away, that means lockers, weapons the whole nine yards. As I said before, and if you were in the military you should know better reporters are out to inflate a problem to make a story. Dont believe everything you hear on TV. when you make an Oath to your job it doesnt mean that you forsake your family. And dont you make that same oath to your wife when your at the altar?
You said that you stood your ground when your wifes unit was attacked, again thats the military, way different set of circumstances. Its not dissertion for a cop to quit, its called RESIGNING. As for 911, again way different scenario you cant compare, I was there it was about saving lives, but if the entire city was under a disaster you bet many of the workers would ensure the safety of their family first then report to duty. Its easy to monday morning quarterback someone that you never walked around in their shoes. If your not a cop you just dont understand how important a family is too them, its a foundation for everything and for many it keeps them sane and going for having to deal with the harsh things they see day to day.


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## Darth K'Trava (Sep 9, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> Torm the True, the Loyal Fury, god of Honor and *Duty*, spits heavily, and will go no further in saying why out of respect for others on the board and the board's rules. But I should think it would be obvious.....




Not all are followers of the Great Torm. Not all know well the vows of Duty.

You know it's a rare day when LG gets thrown out the window.....   

 

Now to be serious (for once): I think that those who left should've come back when the storm had passed to keep the city they once called home safe. Maybe the chaos and mayhem wouldn't have been as bad had they had the full force there, making their presence known.


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## Darth K'Trava (Sep 9, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> I admittedly don't know what might have been in this _specific_ order, but generally members of emergency services are expected to stay to help see to it that the order is carried out for the general populace.
> 
> (I live near Myrtle Beach, SC, where mandatory evacuation is almost an annual event.)




I used to live in Homestead, FL where I don't recall having to deal with mandatory evacuations.... Only had to deal more with hurricanes after we moved to central NC (Piedmont Triad area).


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## reveal (Sep 9, 2005)

Ampolitor said:
			
		

> You still dont understand and your still comparing being a cop to the military, its TWO different things. I have been both and trust me they are not the same in any way.




I do get it. If you take an oath to serve and protect, regardless of the uniform, that's what you do. You uphold your oath. It's that simple.


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## Patryn of Elvenshae (Sep 9, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> As we used to say in the Air Force, "Service above self."




The Navy's analogue is "Ship, shipmate, self."


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## Ralts Bloodthorne (Sep 9, 2005)

Ampolitor said:
			
		

> You still dont understand and your still comparing being a cop to the military, its TWO different things. I have been both and trust me they are not the same in any way.



Duty is the same no matter what.

A parent has duty to thier children. Firefighters have a duty to do thier best to stop fires and rescue people. Doctors have a duty to save lives. Soldier's have a duty to protect those who cannot or will not protect themselves. Police have a duty to protect civilization from those who would destroy it.

You say I don't understand. That's very possible.

They failed in thier duty. Willingly. I don't understand why.


> First off many of the cops did die in the flood, I have a few officers down there from my department who checked in with us. The police dept down there dont have uniforms, half dont have weapons and there are TWO yes TWO vehicles that they have. Its kind of hard to stop looters without weapons, what where they gonna use harsh language? You seem to forget that the police dept was washed away, that means lockers, weapons the whole nine yards.



I'm sure they could have aquired weapons one way or another. That's no excuse.


> As I said before, and if you were in the military you should know better reporters are out to inflate a problem to make a story. Dont believe everything you hear on TV. when you make an Oath to your job it doesnt mean that you forsake your family. And dont you make that same oath to your wife when your at the altar?






> You said that you stood your ground when your wifes unit was attacked, again thats the military, way different set of circumstances.



Not to me.


> Its not dissertion for a cop to quit, its called RESIGNING.



IE: Quitting.

[quote[ As for 911, again way different scenario you cant compare, I was there it was about saving lives, but if the entire city was under a disaster you bet many of the workers would ensure the safety of their family first then report to duty. Its easy to monday morning quarterback someone that you never walked around in their shoes. If your not a cop you just dont understand how important a family is too them, its a foundation for everything and for many it keeps them sane and going for having to deal with the harsh things they see day to day.[/QUOTE]
Nope. Never been a cop.

But I've upheld my duty at all costs. As a civilian, as military.

They ran. They quit. They left.

They abandoned thier duty.

As for the seeing things every day: You took the brass, you can take the blood.


Duty. Honor. Courage.

More than words.


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## Ranger REG (Sep 9, 2005)

Del said:
			
		

> I think gaming adults would be fine, just don't ask a flood survivor to play it.



So, I'm guessing playing such a RPG tournament in New Orleans would be out of the question?


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## Truth Seeker (Sep 9, 2005)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> So, I'm guessing playing such a RPG tournament in New Orleans would be out of the question?




*Wave the unconfuse wand* Better?


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## Del (Sep 9, 2005)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> So, I'm guessing playing such a RPG tournament in New Orleans would be out of the question?




Indeed.

And how do you think I feel when my flagship game product is called "Wetwar".


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## Ranger REG (Sep 10, 2005)

Del said:
			
		

> Indeed.
> 
> And how do you think I feel when my flagship game product is called "Wetwar".



Hmm. Probably the same if you played _Waterworld_ movie in the Houston Astrodome for the evacuees.

[image placeholder: devil smiley]


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## Del (Sep 10, 2005)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> Hmm. Probably the same if you played _Waterworld_ movie in the Houston Astrodome for the evacuees.
> 
> [image placeholder: devil smiley]




I liked that movie, AND The Postman.

I'm just wrong.


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## Darth K'Trava (Sep 11, 2005)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> Hmm. Probably the same if you played _Waterworld_ movie in the Houston Astrodome for the evacuees.
> 
> [image placeholder: devil smiley]




You mean this one?: 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Still haven't seen _Waterworld_ yet....


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## Del (Sep 11, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> Still haven't seen _Waterworld_ yet....




Basically take Mad Max 2: The Road Warrior and put it on the high seas. Then deduct millions from the bank accounts of everyone involved.


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## Ranger REG (Sep 11, 2005)

Del said:
			
		

> Basically take Mad Max 2: The Road Warrior and put it on the high seas. Then deduct millions from the bank accounts of everyone involved.



You forgot a homewrecker to kill a marriage.


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## Del (Sep 11, 2005)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> You forgot a homewrecker to kill a marriage.




Hollywood marriages are so hard to keep track of.

- Where's my latte!?! Del


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## Ranger REG (Sep 11, 2005)

Del said:
			
		

> Hollywood marriages are so hard to keep track of.
> 
> - Where's my latte!?! Del



Well, it's not like Old Hollywood (Elizabeth Taylor don't count) where a marriage usually lasts 20 years before they call it quit.


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## Rel (Sep 11, 2005)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> You forgot a homewrecker to kill a marriage.




Whose home got wrecked by whom?


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## wingsandsword (Sep 11, 2005)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> Well, it's not like Old Hollywood (Elizabeth Taylor don't count) where a marriage usually lasts 20 years before they call it quit.



Back then marriages lasted 40 or 60 years, it's all relative.


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## ssampier (Sep 11, 2005)

I'm not in the military or have ever been a police officer, but I am a person that takes responsibility seriously. You tell me to do something, I will do it. The police abandoning their jobs to help their families’ sound fine, but what about the other victims of the tragedy? They have no one else to turn to with the looting and the dangerous conditions. 

Just as an aside, why do people associate dedication with pay? Our public servants, for example, such as police, fire, etc. have a difficult job to perform and with few exceptions they do a damn fine job of it. Their pay is not commensurate to their job, IMHO, but that doesn't stop dedicated people from doing their job.


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## Ranger REG (Sep 12, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> Whose home got wrecked by whom?



The star of _Waterworld,_ Kevin Costner.


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## Ranger REG (Sep 12, 2005)

ssampier said:
			
		

> I'm not in the military or have ever been a police officer, but I am a person that takes responsibility seriously. You tell me to do something, I will do it. The police abandoning their jobs to help their families’ sound fine, but what about the other victims of the tragedy? They have no one else to turn to with the looting and the dangerous conditions.



Are you pleading to the cops who have families to tend to, or the cops that don't?


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