# Gamers and Stereotypes



## Majoru Oakheart (Apr 18, 2005)

This is an off topic thread I decided to start here as an offshoot of the girl gamers thread.



			
				Elf Witch said:
			
		

> When I see gamers who are in the mid 20s who fit the sterotype I have to wonder why. Is it a  psychological problem that stops them from being able to fit into mainstream society or is that they don't want to. Is it a badge of honor they wear. Society didn't let them fit in when they were teen agers so why should they bother to try and fit in now, It is the principle that counts.



Since I pretty much qualify as this (mid 20s, overweight, wears sci-fi/geek t-shirts).  I'd say I look like this because...well, I'm overweight and I like sci-fi and geek slogans.

I could probably go on a diet, do huge amounts of exercise and try to slim down while switching to more stylish clothes and try to go out and do less geeky things.  Then again, if I did, I wouldn't be me anymore.

Yes, I have to deal with the consequences.  This means a lot of people will write me off just by seeing me.  That is their loss.  But to make it sound like I have a psychological problem because I happen to look like this makes it sound like there is "normal" and everyone who doesn't try to fit into it is wrong.

Also, I've spent days at home when I wasn't going out or having anyone over without having a shower.  I've also run into situations where I've been out, gone directly to work, then after work gone directly to a game in order to be on time.  I seem to lack the ability to "feel" dirty as I hear a lot of other people do.  Don't get me wrong, I have showers, I get clean and I really enjoy showers.  It's just that the real reason I have them is for other people rather than for myself.  I've been in a room filled with gamers, a decent number of which I knew had been awake for almost 48 hours without really even leaving the gaming room and I couldn't even smell them at all.  I knew they didn't have showers during this time.  Apparently I lack the ability to smell at all.  Except most of the time I can't stand the smell of all the strong perfumes, aftershaves, and deoderants people wear.

The reason I bring this up is because without fail I hear the stereotypes of gamers being all a bunch of overweight, likely balding, geek slogan t-shirt wearing, stinky, socially inept losers.  And, a lot of those stereotypes describe ME perfectly.  Except, I don't believe I'm socially inept, nor do I believe I'm stinky.

I don't like very many non-geeky things.  I don't like any sports at all, can't stand watching them or playing most of them.  I can't stand discussions on the stock market, financial planning, make up, shopping, fashion.  I hate drugs, drinking, smoking, and bars.  I can't stand doing any of them or being around people who do them.

So, I see people acting like idiots, getting drunk out of their mind, treating women like crap, killing themselves and other with drugs and alcohol.  If I voice my opinion on any of these things, however, I am treated like an outcast for not accepting the things that everyone else does.  However, the opinion I tend to get from everyone I meet is that since I play D&D, live with my parents, am in my mid 20s and it might have been 24 hours since I last took a shower that I'm horribly mal-adjusted.  That I'm purposefully trying not to fit into society and that if I only changed who I was, people would like me better.

As a continuation from another point about the previous thread.  Even If I'm purposefully dressing up, showered an hour before leaving, and am TRYING to fit in with "normal" people, one mention of playing RPGs or D&D is enough for normal people to ignore me and treat me like I'm less than human.

Sorry for the rant, but I really have to get this off my chest.  I know that I'm going to be called every name in the book and I should never be this honest in a post ever.  But, hey, I gotta be me.  Do your worst, I suppose.

edit: for spelling and clarification


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## Berandor (Apr 18, 2005)

*Paging T-Billy*


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## diaglo (Apr 18, 2005)

i ams what i ams

i'm popeye the sailor mang...


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## SweeneyTodd (Apr 18, 2005)

Uh, my only response is that I'd go ahead and go with a daily shower. That's one area that I don't think is a meaningful "lifestyle choice" to forsake. Anything else, you go nuts, do whatever makes you happy.


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## S'mon (Apr 18, 2005)

Majoru Oakheart said:
			
		

> Except, I don't believe I'm socially inept, nor do I believe I'm stinky.




Have you asked?


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## Mallus (Apr 18, 2005)

Majoru Oakheart said:
			
		

> I can't stand doing any of them or being around people who do them.



Judge not, lest ye be judged.


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## der_kluge (Apr 18, 2005)

Majoru Oakheart, I feel your pain.  About 8 years ago, I spend several hundred dollars in therapy because I couldn't figure out if the problem was *me*, or the problem was everyone else.

I'm going to be candid here (as if I rarely hold back otherwise!)

I was 23/24, still a virgin, I didn't drink at all, listened almost exclusively to classical music (still do), enjoyed playing computer games and D&D, enjoyed Star Wars, and was awkward around women.  Yea, that about summed me up.

On the plus side, I had a good job, I had friends, I showered every day, was thin, and not outwardly geeky at all. I'm really a pretty average looking guy, I suppose.  

But, in general I didn't fit in. I couldn't understand *people* and what most considered fun (getting drunk at a party, or watching football, or participating in organized religion, etc), I didn't want any part of those things.

Ultimately, it was a waste of money, and the guy agreed with me that I just needed to be me. It probably didn't help that most of my friends slept around, had problems with drugs in their past, and generally led lives that resembled soap operas. Don't get me wrong, they were great guys, and I loved gaming with them (one was even my roommate for quite some time), but they certainly weren't role models by any stretch of the imagination.


I've given up trying to fit in. I can put on appearances, and I have all the social skills I need to perform in the business world, make friends, get along with coworkers, and what have you. But I'm not embarrassed to tell them that I'm an atheist, hate football, don't drink, don't smoke, and think their music is crap. Yea, it doesn't win me a lot of friends in some circles, but I've learned when to keep my mouth shut thing.

And I don't think you're offbase on the whole shower thing. As the quickly-banned poll in off-topic revealed, most people shower every day. I don't do that anymore. I'm just too busy with life, my wife, my daughter, work, my hobbies, and everything in between to have the luxury of waking up early and taking a shower. But it's not like I dig ditches every day. I sit on my ass in an air-conditioned building and work on a computer. I think the major factor in smelling bad is whether you wear deoderant. If you do that, you shouldn't have a problem. You have to be really dirty before dirt makes you stink. My wife doesn't shower every day either.  I don't think it's all that uncommon. Maybe I'm just more environmentally conscious than some people.

On the smell thing, I would recommend asking a close friend if you smell. If they're a good friend they'll tell you. Most people can't smell their own body odor, because our bodies become adjusted to it.

And losing weight is a good idea for health reason, but I wouldn't recommend trying to do that just to try to fit in.

So, I'll bottom line it for you.  Screw everyone else!  It took me a while to recognize that all people are different. I get a lot of weird looks from people when I tell them I like classical music, but then I find out that they like German Rap, so to each their own, you know?


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## Patman21967 (Apr 18, 2005)

Damn man, I smell you from here....or wait...is that me??? It's kinda funny, because we are sorta opposite. I am really into sports, play "over 30" baseball and football, go to the pubs with my friends, try to dress "nice" when out in public etc....but I get hammered by my " cool " friends, about gaming...I usually consider the source. They are smoking weed, getting DUI's and can't keep a girlfriend.  We game every Sunday night, and 2x a year, I go to a LARP. Alot of biggies in our industry attend and I have been going for 10 years now. Guess what, sometimes both "worlds" collide. My gaming friends make fun of my drinking/pool/sports buddies just as much as the reverse. Some of the 2 groups have actually become friends, socializing together on occasion,, when a cool band is playing etc....

People have no right making fun of you, for your choices, as long as you are not imposing them. But, and maybe reread your post, you also suffer by the same rule. You sound very condescending in your rant too...so I'd say it goes both ways...I will never quit gaming. I have had a relationship with a spectacular girl fall apart because of it. It's not about tring to "conform" or fit in, it about hanging out with people you are comfortable with, and get along with, and if anyone gives you a hard time, tell them to "kiss your Ass" and consider the souce, but never sell out, and don't stoop to their level, because I know alot of gamers who do...


Good luck man, 
Pat


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## diaglo (Apr 18, 2005)

die_kluge said:
			
		

> ...don't drink, don't smoke,




what do you do?


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## der_kluge (Apr 18, 2005)

diaglo said:
			
		

> what do you do?




I'm always busy. I write music, I'm working on my master's degree, I surf the web, I play on the computer, watch movies, spend time with my wife and daughter, we go out to eat, etc, etc.


I don't care for drinking. I'll occasionally have a wine cooler, but in general I find the taste of alcohol to be most disagreeable. And I can't see drinking for the purposes of getting drunk because I rather enjoy having full use of my mental facilities.

I think most people are mentally weak, which is why some day I will rule them all!!


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## diaglo (Apr 18, 2005)

die_kluge said:
			
		

> I'm always busy. I write music, I'm working on my master's degree, I surf the web, I play on the computer, watch movies, spend time with my wife and daughter, we go out to eat, etc, etc.
> 
> 
> I don't care for drinking. I'll occasionally have a wine cooler, but in general I find the taste of alcohol to be most disagreeable. And I can't see drinking for the purposes of getting drunk because I rather enjoy having full use of my mental facilities.
> ...




i don't recognize these lines from the song.


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## der_kluge (Apr 18, 2005)

diaglo said:
			
		

> i don't recognize these lines from the song.




Man, you really are old, aren't you?  

That song is like... ancient!


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## iwatt (Apr 18, 2005)

die_kluge said:
			
		

> I think most people are mentally weak, which is why some day I will rule them all!!




Well just remember to keep the masses happy with plenty of booze.


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## Patman21967 (Apr 18, 2005)

For lack of coming up with a better line....is it

1 geek to rule them all, 1 geek to find them.....


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## Breakdaddy (Apr 18, 2005)

die_kluge said:
			
		

> Man, you really are old, aren't you?
> 
> That song is like... ancient!




Is THIS your idea of certain inuendos??!!!


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## Teflon Billy (Apr 18, 2005)

Berandor said:
			
		

> *Paging T-Billy*




No goddam way. Not twice.

If you want to suss out my opinion here, just go to the Hida Bukkorosu thread regarding how to pick up girls while remaining a fat, smelly geeky creep.

I'm through beating my head against a wall trying to convice people that showering and not looking like twats will get them further in life, while listening to them play off their personality flaws as points of pride.

Out.


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## Seeten (Apr 18, 2005)

I like sports, I enjoy watching sports on TV. I played High School basketball, and coached high school basketball.  I shower every day. I havent lived with my parents since I was 17, I moved out as soon as high school was over, and didnt move back.

I played Magic: The Gathering enough, and well enough, to go to Nationals, chose a roommate based on how likely he was to play a ton of D&D with, spent hundreds of dollars a month on gaming, worked at a comic/hobby shop, went to university for philosophy, and juggled girlfriends in and out.

I dont drink, smoke, or do drugs, but I will go out with friends to a bar or pool hall to watch a game, or to spend time with them, once in a while.

I think the long and the short of this little anecdotal story is that liking or disliking sports has nothing to do with whether you are a geek. I have had jock friends who smelled bad, and geek friends who didnt, and vice versa.  That said, I have gone into way too many magic tournaments and nearly gagged from the suffocating odour of unwashed folds of flesh, so I wont pretend it isnt an issue at all.

However, my friends are all incredibly intelligent. I dont associate with anyone who isnt. I cannot stand even speaking to people who gape at everything I say.  Unfortunately, smart people are not always socially adept people. I take the good with the bad.  Sometimes the price I pay for intelligent conversation is stinkiness. Well, my nose is offended, but at least my brain isnt. Thats worth it, to me.


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## DungeonmasterCal (Apr 18, 2005)

I'm convinced that had I committed a crime at GenCon, my chances of getting away scot-free are very good.  All the victim has to do is begin describing the perp as "an overweight guy with a beard, in his late 30's or early 40's...." and the cop would've just tossed his hands in the air and walked away.


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## JimAde (Apr 18, 2005)

diaglo said:
			
		

> i don't recognize these lines from the song.



 It's all because your mama don't dance and your daddy don't rock and roll.


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## gizmo33 (Apr 18, 2005)

die_kluge said:
			
		

> So, I'll bottom line it for you. Screw everyone else!




IMO something they should teach in health class in High School is that your 20s suck.  Ok, maybe if you're a rock star or one of the Kennedy's things are pretty cool, but I think for most other men, at least, that decade ain't no picnic.

So my theory is that you'll reach Kluge-vana and won't care what people think anymore after you've wrestled with this problem for a few more years.  IMO the thing is to realize that both everyone else and you have a problem, but you're only going to fix yours and that problem is that you have to learn to accept yourself to the degree that these other things fade away.  Work on the friendships that you have with people that accept you.  Work on showering, moving into your own home, girlfriends, weight, hobbies, sports, etc. when/if those things interest you.  It's a lot easier for people to enjoy things when you don't feel like a gun is being held to your head telling you "do this or else people won't like you." 

I'm going to wear my Iron Maiden t-shirt to my cushy office job tomorrow.  And then at noon I'm going to surf over to enworld, read about DnD, and laugh to myself about how I don't work at Blockbuster.  Then maybe the day after I'll go get a tatoo.

And for the love of Odin, don't listen to anything you read on a girl gamers thread.  Man, I feel dirty for just reading that thing.


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## der_kluge (Apr 18, 2005)

gizmo33 said:
			
		

> IMO something they should teach in health class in High School is that your 20s suck.  Ok, maybe if you're a rock star or one of the Kennedy's things are pretty cool, but I think for most other men, at least, that decade ain't no picnic.
> 
> So my theory is that you'll reach Kluge-vana and won't care what people think anymore after you've wrestled with this problem for a few more years.




Kluge-vana is a great place. More people should visit it.

But yes, I whole-heartedly agreed.  I think I could have written the same post as Majoru Oakheart on here when I was his age.


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## Bryan898 (Apr 18, 2005)

Stereotyping's a part of life, you get over it.  I am very active, in shape, dress nicely, shower daily, hang out with the "cool" people, drink, and party.  I get stereotyped as a meathead when people first meet me.  Few meatheads I know can do Calc IV, Physics II, play DnD, RPGs, Wargame, and collectable card games.  You just have to learn to ignore stereotypes... or beat em up, works for me!


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## gizmo33 (Apr 18, 2005)

die_kluge said:
			
		

> Kluge-vana is a great place. More people should visit it.




As long as there are no modrons.


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## DungeonmasterCal (Apr 18, 2005)

My 20's RAWKED.  No whining here.


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## gizmo33 (Apr 18, 2005)

DungeonmasterCal said:
			
		

> My 20's RAWKED. No whining here.




Oh really?  Uh - VanHagar?


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## DungeonmasterCal (Apr 18, 2005)

See the sig... lol...

Not just musically, but in pretty much all aspects of my life.  Sure, my dad passed and I had the gamut of good and bad relationships, but all in all I'd have to rate my 20's pretty high on the fun-o-meter.


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## dungeon blaster (Apr 18, 2005)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> I'm through beating my head against a wall trying to convice people that showering and not looking like twat will get them further in life, while listening to them play off their personality flaws as points of pride.




Word.

There's no reason to be proud of smelling like moldy nachos.  This "pride" usually is really just redirected anger and embarassment.  Take pride in being smart, creative, individual...not in being unable to hold a conversation with someone who likes football.


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## jodyjohnson (Apr 18, 2005)

Whether everyone showers daily or not, nervous perspiration will overcome your favorite anti-perspirant after a while in a competitive or uncomfortable environment.

Conventions are ripe for generating ripe attendees.  Massive amounts of strangers and social anxiety, friendly competition, intense not so friendly competition, long days, lack of fresh air, and sometimes cramped quarters.  

At cons, the wargaming and card halls always seem to generate more fumes.

Between tournament rounds they should call, "Hit the showers".  But convention schedules wouldn't allow for that (not even mentioning running between events hauling 20-30 lbs of gaming supplies).


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## billd91 (Apr 18, 2005)

jodyjohnson said:
			
		

> Conventions are ripe for generating ripe attendees.  Massive amounts of strangers and social anxiety, friendly competition, intense not so friendly competition, long days, lack of fresh air, and sometimes cramped quarters.
> 
> At cons, the wargaming and card halls always seem to generate more fumes.
> 
> Between tournament rounds they should call, "Hit the showers".  But convention schedules wouldn't allow for that (not even mentioning running between events hauling 20-30 lbs of gaming supplies).




There is most definitely something known as 'gamer funk' that abuses the atmosphere in any enclosed area where gamers congregate for 4+ hours at a time, regardless of how well the ventilation system is able to move air. But you do get used to it after a while. The sense of smell is definitely a sense that becomes desensitized as you are exposed to the smell. You notice the funk for a few minutes and then it kind of fades into the background until you go outside, get fresh air, and recharge your receptors.
So, while you don't think you personally smell... you very well might. And there are some people out there who are particularly pungent even if they use deodorant regularly to cover the smell. Pretty soon the bacteria on their bodies generate enough waste to produce that smell again. 
Now, I too will admit that I don't shower every day. I do make sure I shower alternate days, though, even when I'm up running around making my wife's lunch, getting the baby's diapers and milk together for day care, and trying to track down my daughter's missing snack box for school.


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## gizmo33 (Apr 18, 2005)

jodyjohnson said:
			
		

> Between tournament rounds they should call, "Hit the showers". But convention schedules wouldn't allow for that (not even mentioning running between events hauling 20-30 lbs of gaming supplies).




Thanks, now I have to explain to my coworkers why I just screamed in horror.  I'd rather wear a fellow geek's sock over my head than pack into a shower mid-day with the likes of the mob that waits outside the dealer's room at most cons.  I prefer remote mountain waterfalls with nymph attendants, thank-you-very-much.  I'll be reading the con schedules more carefully in the future.


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## jodyjohnson (Apr 18, 2005)

gizmo33 said:
			
		

> I'd rather wear a fellow geek's sock over my head than pack into a shower mid-day with the likes of the mob that waits outside the dealer's room at most cons.




Hotel rooms usually have showers and I'm fairly certain I've never seen one in the convention hall proper.

However, the thought does rank right up there with Die Kluge's latest creepy story of the day (man/wife team luring in fresh meat).


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## iwatt (Apr 18, 2005)

Bryan898 said:
			
		

> Stereotyping's a part of life, you get over it.  I am very active, in shape, dress nicely, shower daily, hang out with the "cool" people, drink, and party.  I get stereotyped as a meathead when people first meet me.  Few meatheads I know can do Calc IV, Physics II, play DnD, RPGs, Wargame, and collectable card games.  You just have to learn to ignore stereotypes... or beat em up, works for me!




Gotta agree. I was stereotyped by my teachers in high school all the time. They'd always end up hiding their astonishment when I'd enter the AP courses   

I still get stereotyped now that I'm in my late 20's. The best answer: who cares!!

By the way....had fun when I was not a teenager, had fun as a teenager, and having fun now. If you're not having fun with what you're doing, then why are you doing it.

iwatt

P.S: You can be a societal misfit all you want. Just be a CLEAN societal misfit.


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## fusangite (Apr 18, 2005)

Majoru Oakheart said:
			
		

> I could probably go on a diet, do huge amounts of exercise and try to slim down while switching to more stylish clothes and try to go out and do less geeky things.  Then again, if I did, I wouldn't be me anymore.



Well, I agree with your statement about passtimes but I don't understand how someone could be so superficial as to feel that the real them is contained in some blubber or scraps of fabric. I know people from various walks of life, some of whom you would think were incredibly superficial but I cannot think of one single one of them who thinks that who a person is depends on how fat they are or what clothes they wear. Who you are is about what you do and what you love. It is not about clothes and weight. I lost 40 lbs and when I look in the mirror I'm still me. 

The thing I like about my fellow geeks is that they don't care about superficial stuff like clothes and weight. They like people for who they are. So, I'm really troubled when somebody who claims they are a geek starts saying that who you are is based on such superficialities. 

Not being fat is kind of nice. You actually _save_ money on clothes; you look more attractive and you take up less space on the bus; you live longer. I think it's a real shame that you wouldn't be willing to accept all those benefits because you think that somewhere in those 50lbs of extra fatty tissue in your life, there is the true essence of you as a human being.







> Yes, I have to deal with the consequences.  This means a lot of people will write me off just by seeing me.  That is their loss.



But it's also yours.







> Also... (a whole bunch of wacky crap about showers)



If you enjoy showers, how is it that you cannot spare 0.21% of your waking hours to make sure you feel clean. Now, if showers were unpleasant for you, I might see your point. But if you enjoy actually them and can actually spare a fifth of a percent of your day for a three minute shower, why not shower? Not only will you be doing something you know will feel nice. It will improve the day of everyone you encounter over the course of your day.







> The reason I bring this up is because without fail I hear the stereotypes of gamers being all a bunch of overweight, likely balding, geek slogan t-shirt wearing, stinky, socially inept losers.  And, a lot of those stereotypes describe ME perfectly.  Except, I don't believe I'm socially inept, nor do I believe I'm stinky.



I've certainly fitted into every one of those categories from time to time. And I agree that people with those qualities are statistically over-represented in our hobby. 

But that's not why you wrote this. You wanted to be pitied. You wanted people to say, "come on, try!" And then argue with you when you continued to treat these silly superficial behaviours as a point of pride. It's a win-win situation for you: either you get a bunch of strangers to convince you you are not a loser or you get to win an argument with a bunch of strangers and prove that you really are. Either way, you'll get attention and pity and with either outcome, you'll get a slight buzz from a sense of either victory or hope; and it sounds to me that this is a project likely to be more fulfilling than your current social interactions.







> I don't like very many non-geeky things.  I don't like any sports at all, can't stand watching them or playing most of them.  I can't stand discussions on the stock market, financial planning, make up, shopping, fashion.  I hate drugs, drinking, smoking, and bars.  I can't stand doing any of them or being around people who do them.



I was basically the same. And I still can't get sports or financial planning. But don't you remember being a kid and not liking various foods that you now do like? Well, you can keep having experiences like that. Broadening one's tastes sometimes works. Sometimes it doesn't. But as far as I'm concerned, the more things I learn how to enjoy, the more fun I'm capable of having. I used to have really snobby taste in movies and only like inaccessible arty crap -- then I figured out how to like regular Hollywood movies. Now, anytime I want to go to the movies, I can just go to the nearest theatre and have a good time. I didn't use to like eggs; now I do and I can have a good breakfast anywhere. Now, with some things, I can't acquire a taste -- doesn't matter how much I try gjetost, that Norwegian brown cheese, it still tastes disgusting. But acquiring tastes really pays off.







> So, I see people acting like idiots, getting drunk out of their mind, treating women like crap, killing themselves and other with drugs and alcohol.  If I voice my opinion on any of these things, however, I am treated like an outcast for not accepting the things that everyone else does.



Well, look at it from the point of view of these sinners you are trying to correct: all kinds of people must have told you how to run your life differently in the past, or even on this thread; it doesn't feel very good, usually, does it? These people aren't really that different from you -- just more sensitive maybe; they hate being judged and criticized. It hurts them; and unlike you, they haven't built up thick emotional callouses from being judged and criticized all the time so they're not used to that pain. 







> As a continuation from another point about the previous thread.  Even If I'm purposefully dressing up, showered an hour before leaving, and am TRYING to fit in with "normal" people, one mention of playing RPGs or D&D is enough for normal people to ignore me and treat me like I'm less than human.



Well it sucks but getting on with people socially comes much more naturally to some people than others. I have to work really hard to do that whereas it comes naturally to a lot of my friends. For me, the all the work still produces enough results that it's worth it. 

And that's tough for smart people who are used to intellectual concepts just coming naturally to them. People who aren't that bright are used to having to work really hard to learn certain skills or figure things out. So they expect to have to work really hard to decode something that comes naturally to others. If you were a smart kid, and I bet you were, you probably have no practice at having to study really hard to learn a concept or acquire a skill. So, when faced with something like this, it probably feels really daunting. But working hard to figure something out and still failing at it a bunch is just a human experience that nearly everybody will experience in one form or another. It's just part of being alive.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Apr 18, 2005)

Honestly, other than the showering thing -- if you want to view hygiene as a lifestyle choice, America, which buys more such products per capita than any other nation on Earth, isn't a good spot to live -- most of this crap won't matter after age 25 or so, once everyone's gotten high school out of their system.

Is my 51 year old boss cool? Honestly, who knows? Am I cool in my late 30s? Couldn't tell ya. And this isn't my myopia -- no one knows after a certain age, because cliques that are the barometers of such things get replaced by doing your job, raising your kids, paying your mortgage.

But seriously, the showers are a real issue. You not being able to smell a room full of gamers who haven't showered in 48 hours is not evidence that you don't stink -- it's evidence that your olfactory nerve has burned out years ago. If nothing else, your kids will be teens one day, and having a stinky dad will be extra bonus trauma they don't need.


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## Elf Witch (Apr 18, 2005)

Since you quoted me to start this thread I have something to say.  First of all I myself am overweight. I love Sf and Fantasy and am proud to be a Trekkie.  I dress up as a Klingon at cons. I can quote movie lines with the best of them. I am proud to be a geek.

But I also practice good hygiene moved out of parents house a long time ago raised a child and have no problems talking to people who are not geeks about other subjects. I don't tend to scare the mundanes except when I want to.  

I never once had to change who I was to to do this. 

It is one thing to be living at home while you work towards your future it is another thing to be living at home because your only motivations in life is to make enough money to buy the lastest RPG product, CCG card, DVD box set or whatever. 

You don't have to like sports or going to bars to be so called normal what is normal anyway. One of the guys I game with is a thirty something drop dead gorgeous dentist who loves gaming and going to nightclubs another guy is your typical over weight balding laid back Jimmy Buffet gaming dude another is a investment banker with two kids.


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## Eolin (Apr 18, 2005)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> Is my 51 year old boss cool? Honestly, who knows? Am I cool in my late 30s? Couldn't tell ya. And this isn't my myopia -- no one knows after a certain age, because cliques that are the barometers of such things get replaced by doing your job, raising your kids, paying your mortgage.




well, I'm cool.

I don't know what it is to be popular, but I know what I like. And that's my normal definition of cool. and I've been getting cooler at a pretty rapid pace lately. I've lost 20 pounds, I'm headed off to graduate school in Pittsburgh, and I add a lot to the games I'm in.

Yep, I'm totally cool.

Seriously, bathing is important. And I noticed that if given a chance, I *like* wearing decent clothes. I've no idea what the brands are, but I know I like them. My new clothes allow me to look like myself while still allowing me to look good. 

Edit: I'm so cool my Quotes don't work right.


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## Thornir Alekeg (Apr 18, 2005)

Majoru Oakheart said:
			
		

> I don't like very many non-geeky things.  I don't like any sports at all, can't stand watching them or playing most of them.  I can't stand discussions on the stock market, financial planning, make up, shopping, fashion.  I hate drugs, drinking, smoking, and bars.  I can't stand doing any of them or being around people who do them.




So, in a room of your peers, people who think like you do, the druggies, the drinkers the smokers would be outcast, right?



> So, I see people acting like idiots, getting drunk out of their mind, treating women like crap, killing themselves and other with drugs and alcohol.  If I voice my opinion on any of these things, however, I am treated like an outcast for not accepting the things that everyone else does.




Wow, Manitoba must be nasty place.  The society I live in frowns upon this stuff.



> However, the opinion I tend to get from everyone I meet is that since I play D&D, live with my parents, am in my mid 20s and it might have been 24 hours since I last took a shower that I'm horribly mal-adjusted.  That I'm purposefully trying not to fit into society and that if I only changed who I was, people would like me better.
> 
> As a continuation from another point about the previous thread.  Even If I'm purposefully dressing up, showered an hour before leaving, and am TRYING to fit in with "normal" people, one mention of playing RPGs or D&D is enough for normal people to ignore me and treat me like I'm less than human.




Yep, people are judgemental.  It's not very fair, but it is true.  You judge people and probably ignore them if they start talking about their shopping trip or stock portfolio, they do it to you for D&D.  It just happens that there are more people like that so it is considered more "acceptable". 



> Sorry for the rant, but I really have to get this off my chest.  I know that I'm going to be called every name in the book and I should never be this honest in a post ever.  But, hey, I gotta be me.  Do your worst, I suppose.




So be yourself. You then have two choices, accept that some, maybe many, people will not like you and try to find like-minded people, or try to find ways to fit in by changing some of the more superficial things about yourself.  You should be able to do that and not change who you are, unless you only define yourself superficially.


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## Altalazar (Apr 19, 2005)

SweeneyTodd said:
			
		

> Uh, my only response is that I'd go ahead and go with a daily shower. That's one area that I don't think is a meaningful "lifestyle choice" to forsake. Anything else, you go nuts, do whatever makes you happy.




I agree, though I also am guilty of, some days, where I know I'm going to stay indoors all day, in my pajamas, not having a shower (or shave).  But my firm rule is if I have company or if I'm leaving the house (for any reason for any distance) then I have to shower and put on fresh clothes or I won't do it.  

But really, stereotypes are just that - I remember reading that Heather Graham has expressed interest in gaming.  Now, if THAT isn't breaking against stereotype, I don't know WHAT is.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Apr 19, 2005)

Altalazar said:
			
		

> I agree, though I also am guilty of, some days, where I know I'm going to stay indoors all day, in my pajamas, not having a shower (or shave).  But my firm rule is if I have company or if I'm leaving the house (for any reason for any distance) then I have to shower and put on fresh clothes or I won't do it.



I think that's pretty much everyone who does that.



> But really, stereotypes are just that - I remember reading that Heather Graham has expressed interest in gaming.  Now, if THAT isn't breaking against stereotype, I don't know WHAT is.



Nah, the theater crowd in high school had a large crossover with the gaming crowd in my experience. Actors do not spring full-born from the ocean, like Venus on the half shell.


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## IronWolf (Apr 19, 2005)

The world is full of stereotypes.  Classifying people as jocks, computer geeks and such is no better than classifying gamers as gamers.  It happens - how you deal with it is the defining portion of one's self.  Personally I don't really pay much attention to it.

But the shower thing is just crazy.  I have been to several large conventions and even the small back gaming room at some of the local gaming shops.  There is often the stench of body odor (a.k.a. gamer funk).  It does not hurt one to take a three to five minute shower in the morning.  One is used to their own odor, so one cannot really judge whether oneself smells or not.  Do what some of the others have suggested, ask a close friend.


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## Angel Tarragon (Apr 19, 2005)

Take your stereotype and shove it where the sun don't shine!


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## vortex (Apr 19, 2005)

diaglo said:
			
		

> Originally Posted by die_kluge
> ...don't drink, don't smoke,
> what do you do?



_Subtle innuendos follow 
There must be something he's hiding_
Goody two shoes


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## ShinHakkaider (Apr 19, 2005)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> I'm through beating my head against a wall trying to convice people that showering and not looking like twat will get them further in life, while listening to them play off their personality flaws as points of pride.




Ditto. Screw that noise, theres no reason why you can't find a balance. I've been into RPG's since I was 12 and still found time to play sports, go out to clubs and basically be a reasonably well adjusted human being. I stopped attending cons in order to get away from people like the smelly unshowered sterotypes. People who know me, know that I'm NOT that so I could give a hoot if they think that RPG's are geeky or nerdy. I enjoy 'em and that's all that matters. 

Also, I'm married with a rambunctious 3 year old boy and tight schedule and I really have never thought to use that as an excuse NOT to shower everyday. I take a shower everyday sometimes twice, and still find the time to take care of my responsibilities.


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## Andor (Apr 19, 2005)

Couple of points. 

A) While there is significant overlap between nerdom and gamers, they are actually seperate traits. 

B) Sports you don't play are boring. I fence, I enjoy watching fencing. I'll be the first to admit that a fencing match is dead boring if you can't follow exactly what's happening. Most sports bore me to tears, but you might try exploring them, you never know when you'll find out that you enjoy and are good at something you never even thought of. E.G.: Last year at the age of 32 I discovered that I love, and have a knack for motorcycle riding. And I found this out because a couple of my gaming buddies ride and I thought "What the hell, I'll give it a shot." While you can live a life without physical activites you might want to give it a whirl to live with them. If baseball and football don't interest you (and I don't blame you, they don't interest me.) try noncompetative sports like hiking or archery.

C) It sounds like you have ansomia. Does food have a lot of flavor for you, or does it all taste like styrofoam? If the latter, trust everyone else on this thread and shower, you really can't tell if you stink.

D) Just to give you some possibly helpfull insight, here is an interesting essay  on the nature of nerdom. I found it enlightening, as I hadn't realized it was a general trend.


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## Wayside (Apr 19, 2005)

Majoru Oakheart said:
			
		

> I could probably go on a diet, do huge amounts of exercise and try to slim down while switching to more stylish clothes and try to go out and do less geeky things.  Then again, if I did, I wouldn't be me anymore.



I don't think that's true. I could start eating horribly, stop exercising, try to bulk up while switching to a more slovenly appearance and do even more geeky things, and I'd still be me. People might treat me differently then, the way they may treat you differently now, but I'd be me either way.



			
				Majoru Oakheart said:
			
		

> So, I see people acting like idiots, getting drunk out of their mind, treating women like crap, killing themselves and other with drugs and alcohol.  If I voice my opinion on any of these things, however, I am treated like an outcast for not accepting the things that everyone else does.



'Acting like idiots' is a relative judgment. You might see some drunk people having a lovely time and think they're acting like idiots. Those same people might see you at the gaming table, again having a lovely time, and think you and your friends are the ones acting like idiots. Of course from your perspective you're right, but from theirs, so are they. I've been on both sides of this, and find both judgments equally ridiculous.



			
				Majoru Oakheart said:
			
		

> As a continuation from another point about the previous thread.  Even If I'm purposefully dressing up, showered an hour before leaving, and am TRYING to fit in with "normal" people, one mention of playing RPGs or D&D is enough for normal people to ignore me and treat me like I'm less than human.



Why is that though? I guess I don't buy it as a straightforward proposition because I certainly have never made a secret of the fact that I mess with RPG's on occasion, and yet nobody's ever looked at me funny because of it.



			
				die_kluge said:
			
		

> I was 23/24, still a virgin, I didn't drink at all, listened almost exclusively to classical music (still do), enjoyed playing computer games and D&D, enjoyed Star Wars, and was awkward around women.  Yea, that about summed me up.



With the possible exception of being a virgin, I don't think anything listed here is even considered aberrant at this point. Certainly nothing anyone would find odd (but then I suppose that might depend on how long ago your mid-twenties were). Actually, there was an interesting conversation on another (computer gaming) board recently, where the people who considered themselves 'computer geeks,' the rightful possessors of computer geekdom, had actually begun to notice the massive influx of 'normal,' even 'popular' people into gaming, and were beginning to feel displaced. They felt that the 'normal' people were taking over what had always been the province of 'geeks.' So, I really don't think our hobbies in themselves have much of a stigma, if any, these days, when there are NCAA football players running around in WoW and such.



			
				die_kluge said:
			
		

> I've given up trying to fit in. I can put on appearances, and I have all the social skills I need to perform in the business world, make friends, get along with coworkers, and what have you. But I'm not embarrassed to tell them that I'm an atheist, hate football, don't drink, don't smoke, and think their music is crap. Yea, it doesn't win me a lot of friends in some circles, but I've learned when to keep my mouth shut thing.



Identity is a very interesting thing to think about in the context of this thread. Culturally, we have a certain amount of rhetoric we bring to the discussion, phrases like "fitting in." This suggests a solidified social space we aren't allowed into if we are "being ourselves," another, in my opinion equally cheesey, rhetorical turn we often use. "Be yourself, "be an individual," "be unique." Amazingly cheesey. What is this core self, which you is the real you? I admit I can't even understand your thoughts here in more than a semantic way because I don't believe I have any such core. I, or I suppose I should say we, are a multiplicity of selves who enjoy moving into new spaces and contexts and who enjoy changing, always into someone else. People who think of themselves as having to 'try to fit in' or 'put on appearances' (or any other such culturally inscribed ridiculousness) seem very alien to me.


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## freebfrost (Apr 19, 2005)

Breakdaddy said:
			
		

> Is THIS your idea of certain inuendos??!!!




Close, but it actually qualifies more as a "subtle innuendo".



Must be something inside...


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## reanjr (Apr 19, 2005)

DungeonmasterCal said:
			
		

> My 20's RAWKED.  No whining here.




I'm having a good time of mine.


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## Teflon Billy (Apr 19, 2005)

gizmo33 said:
			
		

> IMO something they should teach in health class in High School is that your 20s suck.  Ok, maybe if you're a rock star or one of the Kennedy's things are pretty cool, but I think for most other men, at least, that decade ain't no picnic.




My 20's were phenomenal. Highschool sucked for me


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## Majoru Oakheart (Apr 19, 2005)

fusangite said:
			
		

> Well, I agree with your statement about passtimes but I don't understand how someone could be so superficial as to feel that the real them is contained in some blubber or scraps of fabric. I know people from various walks of life, some of whom you would think were incredibly superficial but I cannot think of one single one of them who thinks that who a person is depends on how fat they are or what clothes they wear. Who you are is about what you do and what you love. It is not about clothes and weight. I lost 40 lbs and when I look in the mirror I'm still me.



Well, I don't believe that being overweight is "me" per se.  What I was saying is that spending most of my time exercising and trying to remain slim, I wouldn't be me anymore.  I'd lose time that I currently enjoy spending on other things.  I have 3 D&D games a week, I'd likely have to drop at least one of them to spend one day a week and the gym or something in order to slim down.  And the thought of that does not appeal to me.

Also, I'd like to point out that I'm not EXTREMELY overweight.  I know at least 3 or 4 of my friends that are more overweight than I am.

As for the showering thing.  It's not that I don't like having a shower, it has to do with my priorities.  For instance.  I went to bed right after I made the first post, about 10 hours ago.  I set my alarm for 9:30 pm, figuring that I'd be awake long before then.  I woke up to my alarm, still felt tired and hit snooze.  I finally woke up around 10:15 pm.  I work at 11:30 pm today.  I work the midnight shift doing tech support until 8 am.  I will likely only see my 3 coworkers all day before I come home again.  I don't like them because they haven't really treated me well in the past.  So, I've spent 30 minutes reading through replies and posting this.  It's now 10:50.  When I take a shower, since I enjoy it so much, it takes no less than 30 minutes, normally 45 minutes.  I need to leave in 10 minutes.  So, in order to not be late, it appears no shower until I get home.

But the only people who I'll see today at all are likely those 3 people and anyone I pass on the street from my car to my work.  And being awake at work seems more important to me than what those 3 people think of me.  Because I get rather...cranky if I don't sleep well.  And that's not a good thing when you talk to customers for 8 hours straight and they can be frustrating.

On that note, 5 minutes before I have to leave, still have to get dressed and go.  I'll read and reply from work when I get there.


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## Ds Da Man (Apr 19, 2005)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> My 20's were phenomenal. Highschool sucked for me




Gotta say the same thing too! Getting outta high school, and joining the military was great!

Dude, stop being so angsty, and quit worrying about what people say or think too much (unless you reek, then getta shower and change your clothes, all of them!) I'm not Mr. Universe, but definately not bad. Most people won't be asses as long as you portray a positive attitude. I mean in everything in your life. Happiness is a state of mind. You missing out on women, try doing some walking or bicycling for 20 min a day. You may find that the little bit o' activity will actually spawn some change in your attitude.


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## I'm A Banana (Apr 19, 2005)

Loud and clear now:

*HOBBIES ARE NOT LIFESTYLE CHOICES* 

What works for others works for you, too. What's stopping you from engaging someone in conversation about what they care about? What's stopping you from presenting yourself in better clothes and better hygine for someone else? Why be this selfish? What does it get you?

If you're happy, fine. But if you're not, maybe some gentle bowing to the masses will help you to be so.

People hide their true natures behind a veneer of social norms. It's the only reason we don't kill each other for being lying, cheating, manipulative little twicks. Refusing to is not a point of assertive personality, it's a point of being a selfish person who would rather do things for his own benefit that someone else's.

Again, there's nothing inherently flawed with that, if you're content living that life. But if you're not, maybe you could start taking other people's thoughts and ideas into account once in a while. Maybe you could develop a working basic knowledge of a sport or four, or of how stocks work. That doens't change YOU, that changes how you are seen by others, and there is a dramatic difference. How you are seen by others is always intentionally deceptive people people, in general, don't want to see what you're really like.

Those who do want to see what you're really like...those people you game with, those people who find your own ideas interesting...those are the people you can develop friendships and relationships with, regardless of their conversation about stocks and sports. Sooner or later, maybe a girl will come a long who you can stink with. I know I've dated some girls who were quite a bit less hygenic than I...er, in fact, all of them...wow...either I'm a bit obessive about cleaning or I've dated some pretty hardcore slobs...

Er, anyway, you can either stop being selfish, or stop giving half a turd about what other people say. Or more likely, a combo of both. 

This Tuff Luv brought to you by my inner Reapersaurus (how's THAT for old school!)


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## pogre (Apr 19, 2005)

> *Originally Posted by Elf Witch*
> When I see gamers who are in the mid 20s who fit the sterotype I have to wonder why. Is it a psychological problem that stops them from being able to fit into mainstream society or is that they don't want to. Is it a badge of honor they wear. Society didn't let them fit in when they were teen agers so why should they bother to try and fit in now, It is the principle that counts.




You started your rant with this quote, but everything you have said so far absolutely reinforces what *Elf Witch* stated. You have a passive/aggressive badge of honor thing going. The question is - are you happy? If folks put up with you in their D&D games - sounds good to me. If your happy not having a S.O. - more power to you. If you really don't care what folks think - right on man. 

But I think the truth is, all of that stuff really makes you *mad*.

If I'm wrong, your world is so far out of my experience I can offer no sound piece of advice to you.


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## the Lorax (Apr 19, 2005)

Personally I wouldn't bother to catagorize gamers as "socially inept" or anything like that.  I see friends of mine, gamers, 3 or more days a week, every week, and have for years.  I think about other non-gamers I know, and they do not have the the type of devoted friendships that many of us enjoy. Screw what anyone else has to say about gamers or gaming.


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## twofalls (Apr 19, 2005)

gizmo33 said:
			
		

> So my theory is that you'll reach Kluge-vana and won't care what people think anymore after you've wrestled with this problem for a few more years.  IMO the thing is to realize that both everyone else and you have a problem, but you're only going to fix yours and that problem is that you have to learn to accept yourself to the degree that these other things fade away.  Work on the friendships that you have with people that accept you.  Work on showering, moving into your own home, girlfriends, weight, hobbies, sports, etc. when/if those things interest you.  It's a lot easier for people to enjoy things when you don't feel like a gun is being held to your head telling you "do this or else people won't like you."
> 
> I'm going to wear my Iron Maiden t-shirt to my cushy office job tomorrow.  And then at noon I'm going to surf over to enworld, read about DnD, and laugh to myself about how I don't work at Blockbuster.  Then maybe the day after I'll go get a tatoo.
> 
> And for the love of Odin, don't listen to anything you read on a girl gamers thread.  Man, I feel dirty for just reading that thing.



Gizmo, I've read a lot of your replies in threads on this board, and I like you man, you are okay in my book.

I've never called myself a geek because I've always found the term vaguely insulting. Oh, I fit the stereotype I suppose. I've played RPG's for 26 years; I worked in the computer field for 8 years and am the go to person in my family and group of friends for all computer issues. I also despise television and read a great deal. I don't see smoking, excessive drinking, or womanizing as attributes that make you cool, and frankly I don't associate with folks who think that way either, so I just don't believe the people who are being defined as being in the "cool crowd" in this thread (using these criteria) really deserve that title. Now that I'm entering my middle years I've gained quite a few lbs and I have the standard American two car garage and SUV parked outside. So perhaps I fit the popularly accepted geek concept, but I just don't use the term to describe myself.

That being said I was a high school football and tennis jock and married the school beauty (who happens to be the most amazing human being I've ever been blessed to know) and she has retained those good looks and sweet personality throughout all our years together. My kids are wonderful and respectful, I do shower every day and wear comfortable nice looking clothes, and I keep myself well groomed. My friends, both gaming and non-gaming are respectable, clean, intelligent people whom I love very dearly. My gaming buddies and I have been playing for a very long time together (between 6 - 26 years), and we are completely devoted to each other and our hobby. I'm not shy about speaking about role-playing to whoever might be interested, but I don't focus the conversation on myself or tell stories about my favorite 30th level Paladin/Assassin either. Rather I explain to folks that role-playing is an inventive creative outlet for my inner storyteller, and I've not ever had someone respond to me in a negative fashion. In fact they have always either been genuinely interested in the conversation or just indicate that it's not their cup of tea and wander to other topics. I think perhaps the reason for this is because I feel confidant about myself and when I'm speaking with others, people can't help but notice that I'm not afraid of who I am.

I'm not putting all this into print to say what a wonderful guy I am; I'm saying it all to point out that stereotypes, by their very natures, are false. If you are being categorized by others then I suggest that you try yourself to stop buying into the categorization. You defined a stereotype and then put yourself into it and said this is me. Well that’s BS. You are who you decide to be, and none other. What you think about yourself is who you are, and that is a simple truism. It might not change your circumstances at the snap of your fingers, but it will change them over time, that’s called cause and effect.

Personal grooming, hygiene, and presentation are an outward reflection of your inward opinion of yourself. It's been many years since I've had to deal with a gamer that was slovenly. I just don't loose players from my games anymore and so rarely have openings. I've had gamers show up to coffee houses to meet with me about my games before (I always screen candidates) who’ve demonstrated slovenly personal hygiene. Those folks haven't ever been invited to game with us, because if they care so little about themselves that they won't take care of their appearance, what other problems are they carrying about that might be issues I will have to deal with down the road? Does that mean that I'm judging the book by its cover? Probably, but that is one of realities of social interaction, and railing against it might help you release a little steam (which is good) but doesn't resolve the issue.

I don't really know if anything I'm typing here actually helps you. You seem like an intelligent thoughtful young fellow and are demonstrating the ability to be introspective by your post here. I applaud you for speaking out about yourself in candid fashion. If advice was something you were seeking then I'd say Gizmo hit the nail on the head. Be yourself, but in doing so I’d caution you to consider the effects your personal habits might have on others and use that as one part of the guide to decide who you really want to be. Best wishes!


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## twofalls (Apr 19, 2005)

WOW! I typed my response to the original poster after only reading to the post of Gizmo's that I quoted. After reading the whole thread, I find it reaffirming that there are a lot of really great people on Enworld!


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## Majoru Oakheart (Apr 19, 2005)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> Loud and clear now:
> 
> *HOBBIES ARE NOT LIFESTYLE CHOICES*
> 
> Er, anyway, you can either stop being selfish, or stop giving half a turd about what other people say. Or more likely, a combo of both.



You are right, hobbies are not lifestyle choices.  On the other hand, my hobbies are part of my life.

See, I'm stuck in a unique situation.  I really like who I am, I like my life EXCEPT for one point.  I don't like the fact that I am completely without female companionship at the moment.  I've had gfs and I'm not a virgin or anything.  But I get lonely a decent amount.  Otherwise, I have lots of friends who I game with multiple times per week.  I go out to movies, play computer games, spend time with my family, play board games.  But, yes, I wish I knew of a female who liked the same things I did.  I actually know only one, and they are engaged to another person in one my my groups.

I actually don't get much discrimination from normal people.  I've never been told that I stink or had people not invite me to do something for that reason (that I'm aware of), and as long as I'm not aware of it, it normally doesn't matter anyways.  Actually, this was more posted because of my frustration of being outnumbered in people I know by the vast majority of people who do smoke or drink or do drugs.  By people who like sports, beer, bars, dancing.  I actually may dislike some of that, personally, but I've never really discriminated against people who do that sort of thing.  If I did, I'd be discriminating against 98% of the world, it seems and against 60% of my friends.  I don't like it, but that doesn't mean I hate other people for liking it.

As a side note, I just found out one of my coworkers during the day who leaves about an hour after I get in each day is actually a gamer.  I was talking to her about games and such.  Found out that she thinks that D&D is a game for powergamers and hack and slashers and can only be used for that purpose and doesn't really like it.  She plays Vampire: TM, only in LARP form though.  She plays Rifts and WoW.  Of course, she probably fits the "gamer" stereotype as well.  She was overweight, mid 20s, glasses, hairy arms.  I didn't think she looked bad, mind you, I have different sensibilities than most people.  But, still, I'm kind of a hack and slasher myself, and I have a feeling if we talked too much we'd probably end up hating each other anyways.  Sometimes the LARP/table top, Hack and Slash/Roleplayer prejudice is almost worse than the non-gamer prejudice for us.


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## Algolei (Apr 19, 2005)

I haven't showered since Christmas.


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## S'mon (Apr 19, 2005)

I think I'm fairly tolerant, and I wouldn't claim to be not a geek, but there are several types of people I wouldn't want in my house where I GM, including druggies and people who smell bad and reek the place up.  People who are extremely fat (American fat, not just British fat) could also be a problem since I have small chairs & limited space at my gaming table.  I guess this puts me on the same side as Teflon Billy on this (*eek*).  Also no smoking in the house - my wife smokes outside, any smoking players do too.  Also (& I suspect unlike TB) I prefer no swearing at the game table; though I'll swear often enough at the pub I don't when I GM, I think it makes a better atmosphere.  I do have a new player who swears and I haven't told him not to, I guess it's a minor point but I'm trying to lead by example.  
I'm not sure how socially aberrant it is to be a virgin at 23 (which was when I met my future wife) - I was an undergrad at Oxford, 70% male,  where most of the guys in my class (Law) were virgins at 18 when we started and still virgins at 21 when we graduated.  OTOH with that 70/30 ratio the girls certainly weren't virgins for long.  This didn't seem to make them any happier than the rest of us though, most of them seemed to feel they'd been taken advantage of by the predatory older male students & postgrads.


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## Flyspeck23 (Apr 19, 2005)

Am I a geek? Perhaps. Probably.
Am I a walking stereotype? Don't think so.
Am I cool? I'm over 30 - how could I? 
Did my 20s rock? - You bet.
Do I shower? - Yes, and at least once a week I'll take a bath (nothing like reading RPG books in the tube... and no accident for more than 20 years doing it  ).
Do I like sports? - Yes, soccer, basketball and baseball, because I can play those in the park. I _hate_ watching sports on TV, though.

Anyway, a friend of mine's pretty much just a stereotypical geek: wearing all black, living alone, tech apartment (3 computers etc.), grossly overweighted.
But at least he takes a shower at least every two days - he knows that as a fat guy he's prone to smell if he doesn't.

Why am I writing this? Well, I'll tell you - after you tell me what this thread is about


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## Majoru Oakheart (Apr 19, 2005)

Flyspeck23 said:
			
		

> Why am I writing this? Well, I'll tell you - after you tell me what this thread is about



I'm not sure I have any idea what it's about actually.  Then again, when did not having a point has never stopped me from posting in the past.  *grin*

I think it had to do with seeing the post from Elf Witch that seemed to make fun of, what I felt was me, and a large amount of gamers I know.  I don't like gamers fighting other gamers or making fun of them.  I mean, our hobby is small enough as it is, and I feel most of the non-gamers make fun of us enough as is, we don't have to add to it by making it a war between the "clean cut, normal job, closet gamers" and the "overweight, geeky, dedicated gamers".

I also think the second point is, that I have no idea how a stereotype that's probably as old as I am manages to fit me so closely despite no effort on my part to fit into that stereotype.  I am who I am, I've always been this way.  I guess I'm just looking for a reason why the stereotype exists.  I assume it must mean that a significant number of gamers fit the stereotype.  The question is why?  Why are all these people all over the place all similar in appearance and attitude.  There is a reason the comic book guy is funny.


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## MonsterMash (Apr 19, 2005)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> I think that's pretty much everyone who does that.
> 
> 
> Nah, the theater crowd in high school had a large crossover with the gaming crowd in my experience. Actors do not spring full-born from the ocean, like Venus on the half shell.



After all Theatre is only scripted LARP and improvised theatre *is* roleplaying!

On some of the more general points - yes I shower everyday (at least once) as it only takes me about 15 mins if I hurry to shower and shave and I exercise which makes me sweaty.


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## S'mon (Apr 19, 2005)

Majoru Oakheart said:
			
		

> I mean, our hobby is small enough as it is, and I feel most of the non-gamers make fun of us enough as is, we don't have to add to it by making it a war between the "clean cut, normal job, closet gamers" and the "overweight, geeky, dedicated gamers".




How about the "clean cut, normal job, geeky, dedicated gamers?"    I think there may be more of us than either the closet "2 cool 4 skool" types or the fat slob types.


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## S'mon (Apr 19, 2005)

MonsterMash said:
			
		

> On some of the more general points - yes I shower everyday (at least once) as it only takes me about 15 mins if I hurry to shower and shave and I exercise which makes me sweaty.




I can confirm that MonsterMash has no discernible scent.


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## tetsujin28 (Apr 19, 2005)

I love NASCAR, motorcycle racing, ice hockey and baseball. And beer.


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## AOS (Apr 19, 2005)

Majoru Oakheart said:
			
		

> I guess I'm just looking for a reason why the stereotype exists.  I assume it must mean that a significant number of gamers fit the stereotype.  The question is why?  Why are all these people all over the place all similar in appearance and attitude.  There is a reason the comic book guy is funny.




Haven't met anyone who games like that stereotype to be honest, the reason stereotypes exist is because it's seen as ok to laugh at a stereotype in a cartoon (Simpson's comic shop guy) and then they are brought up in discussions as a extreme level to illustrate a point.


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## Majoru Oakheart (Apr 19, 2005)

AOS said:
			
		

> Haven't met anyone who games like that stereotype to be honest, the reason stereotypes exist is because it's seen as ok to laugh at a stereotype in a cartoon (Simpson's comic shop guy) and then they are brought up in discussions as a extreme level to illustrate a point.



Well, given that I know that one of my role playing groups is 7 guys, me and one other person are decently overweight (he is WAY bigger than me though), we have 2 people who are kinda chubby, and 4 who are smaller.  

The other group consists of the same 2 overweight people with the addition of 2 more (one of them is female).

Almost all of us play magic: the gathering, like science fiction and fantasy, we are planning opening night to see Revenge of the Sith already.  We get together and play strategy board games every now and again.  We almost all play MMORPGs, one of us works in a gaming store.  3 or 4 of us are in the IT industry.  We are all pretty close to the stereotype.  So I do think there is a good reason for this stereotype to exist.


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## Silver Moon (Apr 19, 2005)

_Disclaimer: This story took place a decade ago and the average gamer appears to have changed some since that time.  _ 


My wife and I worked convention staff for several years. We were sitting at the registration table when a middle-aged woman approached us. She explained that her son was attending the convention, and she had forgotten to tell him something important before he left the house. She asked if we might know where to find him. This was a fairly good sized convention, and he had not pre-registerred, nor did she have any idea what type of games he would even be playing. We explained that we would have to go room-by-room looking for him. 

She said that was fine, adding, "He should be easy to find..." and then went on to describe him: 

Average height, heavy set, dark hair with a slightly receeding hairline, glasses, beard, wearing sneakers, jeans and a gaming t-shirt, with a backpack full of gaming supplies. We had to explain to her that she just described about 50% of the convention attendees.


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## Empress (Apr 19, 2005)

Alright, I sort of apologize beforehand, but a dose of honesty seems in order.


			
				Majoru Oakheart said:
			
		

> Since I pretty much qualify as this (mid 20s, overweight, wears sci-fi/geek t-shirts).  I'd say I look like this because...well, I'm overweight and I like sci-fi and geek slogans.
> 
> I could probably go on a diet, do huge amounts of exercise and try to slim down while switching to more stylish clothes and try to go out and do less geeky things.  Then again, if I did, I wouldn't be me anymore.



So the T-Shirt you're wearing is you? "Han shot first" is you? That's all?

I mean, how can your clothes define your personality? Whether I wear a dress or baggy pants does not change me. That's silly, and a lame excuse.


> Also, I've spent days at home when I wasn't going out or having anyone over without having a shower.  I've also run into situations where I've been out, gone directly to work, then after work gone directly to a game in order to be on time.  I seem to lack the ability to "feel" dirty as I hear a lot of other people do.  Don't get me wrong, I have showers, I get clean and I really enjoy showers.  It's just that the real reason I have them is for other people rather than for myself.



Well, if you shower for other people, please do it more often. They will be glad you did.


> Well, I don't believe that being overweight is "me" per se. What I was saying is that spending most of my time exercising and trying to remain slim, I wouldn't be me anymore. I'd lose time that I currently enjoy spending on other things. I have 3 D&D games a week, I'd likely have to drop at least one of them to spend one day a week and the gym or something in order to slim down. And the thought of that does not appeal to me.



So what you're saying is that you're lazy.


> See, I'm stuck in a unique situation. I really like who I am, I like my life EXCEPT for one point. I don't like the fact that I am completely without female companionship at the moment. I've had gfs and I'm not a virgin or anything. But I get lonely a decent amount. Otherwise, I have lots of friends who I game with multiple times per week. I go out to movies, play computer games, spend time with my family, play board games. But, yes, I wish I knew of a female who liked the same things I did. I actually know only one, and they are engaged to another person in one my my groups.
> ..
> As a side note, I just found out one of my coworkers during the day who leaves about an hour after I get in each day is actually a gamer. I was talking to her about games and such. Found out that she thinks that D&D is a game for powergamers and hack and slashers and can only be used for that purpose and doesn't really like it. She plays Vampire: TM, only in LARP form though. She plays Rifts and WoW. Of course, she probably fits the "gamer" stereotype as well. She was overweight, mid 20s, glasses, hairy arms. I didn't think she looked bad, mind you, I have different sensibilities than most people. But, still, I'm kind of a hack and slasher myself, and I have a feeling if we talked too much we'd probably end up hating each other anyways. Sometimes the LARP/table top, Hack and Slash/Roleplayer prejudice is almost worse than the non-gamer prejudice for us.



You're lazy and afraid talking to a woman might endanger your comfort. You are afraid of rejection, as well, and so better just not try it than be rejected. What's Aimee Mann say?

_"But I can't confront the doubts I have 
I can't admit that mayby the past was bad 
And so, for the sake of momentum 
I'm condemning the future to death so it can match the past"_

I can't believe I'm typing this on a gaming message board, but *get your act together*.  Don't hide behind your wonderful personality (because if it fits on a T-shirt, it can't be so good). You sit at home all the time, wishing you were one of the guys without actually wanting to do something for it. You're Columbus waiting for America to discover him. And it's not only about exercise. Shower, dress in some nice clothes, and sit yourself at the bar of a nice Irish pub (if you're old enough) - you'll end up with conversations guaranteed!

Talk with your colleague about work, about gaming. Read a book that is not fantasy! Read more than one! Read the newspaper (or surf news sites). Go for a coffee with some of your colleagues (inlcuding the gamer, but not excluding everyone else). Do some exercise instead of playing another hour of Knights of the Old Republic. And if you and your colleague still talk friendly in a month or so, walk up to her and say, "You know, we really should go to a movie together" or "would you mind if we not invite Jack and Karen for coffee today? I'd rather be just with you." or "I've heard the new werewolf book is out. Do you want to go to the game store and check it out?"

Sheesh, get out of your shell, and be a proud turtle already!


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## Gentlegamer (Apr 19, 2005)

gizmo33 said:
			
		

> I'm going to wear my Iron Maiden t-shirt to my cushy office job tomorrow.



UP THE IRONS!


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## Majoru Oakheart (Apr 19, 2005)

Empress said:
			
		

> Alright, I sort of apologize beforehand, but a dose of honesty seems in order.
> 
> So the T-Shirt you're wearing is you? "Han shot first" is you? That's all?



Naa, it works the other way around.  I wear the shirt because that is what I like and who I see myself as.  The shirt is not me, I am the shirt.  If I didn't like that stuff or I cared about what other people thought of me much, I wouldn't wear it.  To me, not wearing it is like pretending that I'm someone else. 

Besides, right now I have a sweater and dress pants on.

I fit the stereotype, as I pointed out, not because I'm trying to be that stereotype, but that it happens to fit who I already am so well.  I find that I have the most in common with geeks because I don't have to go through an explaination process to explain what I'm interested in.  I can say "Hey, don't you think that part is cool in Return of the Jedi where the emperor is using lightning on Luke?" and expect an answer back like "ya, but wasn't it cooler when the death star was destroyed" instead of "Umm, I don't remember that, I haven't seen Star Wars in years."



			
				Empress said:
			
		

> So what you're saying is that you're lazy.



More than willing to admit this.  If there's anything that describes me well, it's lazy.  Heck, if I was less lazy, I might take up swimming as a hobby or go to the gym.  But, well, I AM lazy.  It's been me for as long as I can remember.



			
				Empress said:
			
		

> You're lazy and afraid talking to a woman might endanger your comfort. You are afraid of rejection, as well, and so better just not try it than be rejected.



No, actually, I talked to her just fine.  And I enjoyed it.  I probably will try to talk to her again, but it's unlikely I'll get to do anything with her.  Most of my coworkers have the attitude that work is work and we don't do anything outside of it.  I hinted at doing things with them and I pretty much got the "whoa, I spend as much time NOT thinking about this place as possible, I don't want to be hanging around with coworkers outside of work".  Nor do I really like any of them enough to want to spend more time with them then required.




			
				Empress said:
			
		

> I can't believe I'm typing this on a gaming message board, but *get your act together*.  Don't hide behind your wonderful personality (because if it fits on a T-shirt, it can't be so good). You sit at home all the time, wishing you were one of the guys without actually wanting to do something for it. You're Columbus waiting for America to discover him. And it's not only about exercise. Shower, dress in some nice clothes, and sit yourself at the bar of a nice Irish pub (if you're old enough) - you'll end up with conversations guaranteed!



I agree that I do sit around waiting for things to happen to me too much and I should be more proactive.  I'm perfectly aware of that.  However, I have talked to all sorts of people, I go out of my way to listen to stories people tell and what I find more often than not is...they don't really interest me.  A large amount of the real world is just really boring to me.  I deal with it when I have to and no more.  I do like music and can talk about the music industry, current times, some politics, the movie industry, philosophy.  I like talking about these things.  

However, I have no interest in sitting around hearing about this time that one of my friends got so drunk they could barely walk and then when they passed out, they woke up at someone's house they had never met before and got out of there before the other person woke up.  To me that just reads "ok, you did something stupid...why do I need to know about it?"  I also have no interest in spending multiple hours each week doing exercises whose only purpose is to make me look better to other people.  As it is now, I barely manage to fit sleeping, work, eating, and some time for myself into each day.  I dress in nice clothes for nice occasions.  I shower as often as I have time for and is required by society.  If I'm going somewhere with people around, I will shower and get dressed up, unless I know it's mostly geeks.



			
				Empress said:
			
		

> Talk with your colleague about work, about gaming. Read a book that is not fantasy! Read more than one! Read the newspaper (or surf news sites). Go for a coffee with some of your colleagues (inlcuding the gamer, but not excluding everyone else). Do some exercise instead of playing another hour of Knights of the Old Republic.



Just no real interest in most non-fantasy books.  I don't have much time to read anymore anyways.  I have at least 3 or 4 D&D books that I've been meaning to actually read for the last 6 months or so and haven't gotten around to it yet.

But also, that extra hour of Knights of the Old Republic is a lot more fun than the hour of exercise.  Also, depending on what type of exercise I'm doing, I have to go somewhere to have that exercise.  That meanst 30 minutes there, 30 minutes back.   So, I've now wasted one hour of my time travelling in order to spend 1 hour doing something that I don't like doing so OTHER people can like what they see in me.  I hate wasting time and try to optimize the use of it.  If something is fun and makes me happy, it's a good use of time, if it doesn't, it gets scrapped.


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## PapersAndPaychecks (Apr 19, 2005)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> *HOBBIES ARE NOT LIFESTYLE CHOICES*




Sigged.


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## Seeten (Apr 19, 2005)

Exercise doesnt need to involve the gym. You can walk. You can easily do 30 minutes of exercise 3 times a week, in your own house, and thats all you need to do to get in shape. You just have to KEEP AT IT. Don't quit after 3 days, saying, "I dont see results!"

I mean really. Exercise will actually gain you free time, as you wont need as much sleep.


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## Andor (Apr 19, 2005)

Majoru Oakheart said:
			
		

> Found out that she thinks that D&D is a game for powergamers and hack and slashers and can only be used for that purpose and doesn't really like it.  She plays Vampire: TM, only in LARP form though.  She plays Rifts and WoW. But, still, I'm kind of a hack and slasher myself, and I have a feeling if we talked too much we'd probably end up hating each other anyways.  Sometimes the LARP/table top, Hack and Slash/Roleplayer prejudice is almost worse than the non-gamer prejudice for us.




Wow. Just... wow. Dude rifts is the ultimate munchkin system (except maybe Synnibar but let's not go there) and take my word for it that there are plenty of powergaming H&S Vampire players. 

How about this? Tell her you're interested in learning more about Vampire Larping and ask to join her game. I guarentee her GM will be delighted to hand you an NPC to play. At the worst you will broaden your gaming horizons and at best, well, Vampire Larps are a hotbed of dating. 

DON'T use 'our gaming styles are too different' as an excuse to not try, that like refusing to date someone because you like different amounts of hot sauce on your mexican food. What's the worst that can happen? 



> More than willing to admit this. If there's anything that describes me well, it's lazy. Heck, if I was less lazy, I might take up swimming as a hobby or go to the gym. But, well, I AM lazy. It's been me for as long as I can remember.




If you can point a (metaphorical) gun to your head and make yourself go swimming or biking 3 times in a week you'll find your metabolism picks up, and you'll start wanting to keep going. 

Must go to work now.


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## jaded (Apr 19, 2005)

Stereotyping: the image, the clothes, maybe even the smell. They serve as your first impression. As wiser heads than me have commented people _are_ judgemental, as this _is_ judging a book by its cover. People do it. You can control this but you seem to be happy with impression that you give. Fair enough.

Then you get to talk to someone for the first time. There is one and only one outcome here... you come off as being yourself. Now if this is just reinforcing a stereotype to the other party, that's their conclusion, but one that you chose to assist by (for example) chatting about RPGs or Star Wars from the get-go. Fair enough.

My point here is that you have two relatively small, effortwise, options to reduce this stereotypical reaction to yourself. The point you have made though, is that your not prepared to do it purely because "society" expects it. *shrug* Fair enough. To me it seems like a no-brainer though.



> However, I have no interest in sitting around hearing about this time that one of my friends got so drunk they could barely walk and then when they passed out, they woke up at someone's house they had never met before and got out of there before the other person woke up. To me that just reads "ok, you did something stupid...why do I need to know about it?" I also have no interest in spending multiple hours each week doing exercises whose only purpose is to make me look better to other people. As it is now, I barely manage to fit sleeping, work, eating, and some time for myself into each day. I dress in nice clothes for nice occasions. I shower as often as I have time for and is required by society. If I'm going somewhere with people around, I will shower and get dressed up, unless I know it's mostly geeks.




Now, my immediate reaction here was to delete the reply I started. If you don't want to change your lifestyle, then no amount of advice here on ENworld is going to help or motivate you.

I can only really suggest one thing. Even you you might find it distasteful and you don't _want_ to do it, do something else. Sure, you *know* that another hour of KotOR will be fun, but it will be predictable fun, and it is extermely unlikely to help with your loneliness problem.

Go out and indulge your friends that are goofing around. You don't have to join in, but at least be willing to meet them halfway socially. Listen to their stories, laugh at the appropriate times. You don't have to agree, but you don't have to be judgemental either. In time it will be your turn and they will indulge you. This is an exceedingly crude example , but I hope you see the point that I'm making. And while you're out you're much more likely to meet someone, who, when your friends are indulging _your_ interests, might share them.

I guess what I'm saying is: you have to give a little to get a little. You should do things that you don't want to do because there is a tangible reward for doing them (like going to work!). It might not pay off straight away, but then, what does?


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## fusangite (Apr 19, 2005)

Majoru Oakheart said:
			
		

> Well, I don't believe that being overweight is "me" per se.  What I was saying is that spending most of my time exercising and trying to remain slim, I wouldn't be me anymore.



Well, the way I lost weight didn't entail me spending an extra second on anything. I just did the Atkins diet and it worked fine.







> I'd lose time that I currently enjoy spending on other things.  I have 3 D&D games a week, I'd likely have to drop at least one of them to spend one day a week and the gym or something in order to slim down.  And the thought of that does not appeal to me.



You're just wrong here. Go and buy Dr. Atkins' book. 







> As for the showering thing.  It's not that I don't like having a shower, it has to do with my priorities.  For instance.  I went to bed right after I made the first post, about 10 hours ago.  I set my alarm for 9:30 pm, figuring that I'd be awake long before then.  I woke up to my alarm, still felt tired and hit snooze.  I finally woke up around 10:15 pm.  I work at 11:30 pm today.  I work the midnight shift doing tech support until 8 am.



So, if you had "finally" awakened at 10:12pm, you would have had time for a shower. Sounds like a manageable situation to me.







> When I take a shower, since I enjoy it so much, it takes no less than 30 minutes, normally 45 minutes.



I agree. A 45 minute shower is more fun than a 3 minute shower. But, by the same token, isn't a 3 minute shower more fun than a 0 minute shower?

Now, I notice you responded to nothing else in my original post, probably because you ran out of time but I'm going with a best case scenario and assume you agreed with it. As for some of your more recent statements,







> The shirt is not me, I am the shirt. If I didn't like that stuff or I cared about what other people thought of me much, I wouldn't wear it. To me, not wearing it is like pretending that I'm someone else.



I know you denied it earlier but your values really are incredibly superficial. I have some very strong opinions about things -- opinions strong enough to make me spend my savings on those things or get arrested in the name of those things but they still didn't require me to have a slogal endorsing those things on my chest at all times. 

If you think that if you are not wearing a label declaring your aesthetic preferences that you are not being yourself, that's pretty darned sad. And profoundly superficial. Like so many men who are committed to appearing as unattractive and slovenly as possible, you are actually way more appearance-conscious than the rest of us. The fact that you don't feel as happy or good about yourself if you're not wearing an identity label at all times is really troubling. You need to take a cold hard look in the mirror and realize that you are obsessed with appearances and need to address that because essentially you're saying, "I'm uncomfortable going anywhere if I'm not in uniform." You're no different from the preppies who feel naked without the right labels on their clothes or the anarchists who can't wear anything but black. 

What are you afraid of? Are you scared that people will mistake you for a non-geek if you slip out of your geek uniform from time to time? From the other things you've said about yourself, I frankly don't believe there is any immediate risk of that.







> See, I'm stuck in a unique situation.



No. You're not. I'm prepared to bet a minimum of 10% of ENWorlders are in your situation. Hell -- I'm in your situation. So get over yourself. There is nothing special and unique about making your life pretty good except for this fairly common gigantic glaring flaw:







> I really like who I am, I like my life EXCEPT for one point. I don't like the fact that I am completely without female companionship at the moment. I've had gfs and I'm not a virgin or anything. But I get lonely a decent amount.



The fact that you have had girlfriends in the past and are not a virgin in spite of how you conduct yourself indicates to me that you are probably quite intrinsically attractive. Put in a little work and who knows what you might achieve. 







> Actually, this was more posted because of my frustration of being outnumbered in people I know by the vast majority of people who do smoke or drink or do drugs.



I have some sobering news for you. Lots of geeks drink and do drugs... and we're still geeks. So that's neither here nor there.







> As a side note, I just found out one of my coworkers during the day who leaves about an hour after I get in each day is actually a gamer. I was talking to her about games and such. Found out that she thinks that D&D is a game for powergamers and hack and slashers and can only be used for that purpose and doesn't really like it. She plays Vampire: TM, only in LARP form though. She plays Rifts and WoW. Of course, she probably fits the "gamer" stereotype as well. She was overweight, mid 20s, glasses, hairy arms. I didn't think she looked bad, mind you, I have different sensibilities than most people.



So, you do care about people's appearance but because your _tastes_ are different and, probably, broader, you think that they are superior to other people's. So, you think people should be indifferent to your appearance but you aren't indifferent to theirs. What a double standard!







> But, still, I'm kind of a hack and slasher myself, and I have a feeling if we talked too much we'd probably end up hating each other anyways. Sometimes the LARP/table top, Hack and Slash/Roleplayer prejudice is almost worse than the non-gamer prejudice for us.



You are lying. You don't believe this nonsense you've just typed. This is just another one of your pity collecting win-win dilemmas. You are attracted to this woman and want to approach her. In fact, you're fantasizing right now about having a fight with her about gaming styles and how cool it would be to be in a relationship in which you could do that. 

You want us to exhort you to approach this woman. Either we will succeed and make you do something you're scared to do but want to OR you will win the argument and get the thrill of victory and self-pity that comes from convincing us you're a hopeless geek. You're transparent. You're not fooling anybody.







> I also think the second point is, that I have no idea how a stereotype that's probably as old as I am manages to fit me so closely despite no effort on my part to fit into that stereotype. I am who I am, I've always been this way. I guess I'm just looking for a reason why the stereotype exists. I assume it must mean that a significant number of gamers fit the stereotype. The question is why? Why are all these people all over the place all similar in appearance and attitude.



Here's why:

As with anything else, people have various levels of inherent ability at social skills. For some people, socializing comes naturally; for others, it does not. People who are not very socially talented have just as much need for human companionship as people who are very socially talented. So, they look for activities and communities in which they can function with very little social intuition. Gaming is ideal because the rules structure your interactions. Unlike a regular party where you're nervously wondering what an appropriate thing would be to say and whom to say it to, you can always know what to say next in a D&D game because it is a structured interpersonal interaction.

Most people acquire their geek identity in high school; it's a place where your level of latent social talent determines what social groups you can become part of. If you have a low level of social talent, there aren't that many groups where you can fit in. Being a gaming geek is one of the very few that has a culture that accommodates you. It is in these groups that you pick up your tastes of sci-fi and slogan t-shirts because that's affirming of your identity and allows you to recognize one another.


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## Seeten (Apr 19, 2005)

*Chuckle* You go Fusangite.

Social skills for teh win.


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## JesterPoet (Apr 19, 2005)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> My 20's were phenomenal. Highschool sucked for me




Ditto.

And, as a side note...

It isn't just the smell that is a problem if you don't shower.  The greasy hair is nasty too.  Nobody wants to see that.

Take the time to take a shower.


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## Seeten (Apr 19, 2005)

Everyone here on ENWorld seems fairly intelligent. Honestly. Social interaction takes just a bit of experience. All you need to do is study, pay attention, and learn. Watch how others do it. People who ooze personal charisma can pull off more, but reasonable social interaction can be done even by those who are painfully shy. My father is a great example. He was so shy, he didnt like talking to his parents. He worked at it. By the time he was 35, he was president of public groups. He still felt awkward, but only HE knew that.

I got my mothers personal charisma. Lucky me. I was at home everywhere I went, and with any group, but I still worked at it. I worked to understand social dynamics, the underlying structure, why people reacted in certain ways to certain things. I can, and do, predict actions and reactions before they happen. I have my wife convinced to this day that I can read her mind. I can always tell her what she's thinking. Its just a matter of paying attention to all the little things. Anyone can do it, not just someone with high social skills. Social skills are learned, as well as inherited. I think everyone should make an effort, as it makes everyone happier, far as I can tell. Adults dont tend to marginalize as quickly, either, so you'll find not only do your skills grow, but others care less about superficial nonsense.

Take showers. Pay attention. Pretend you care about what others have to say, even if you dont. In return, they'll pretend to care about what you say. Eventually, you'll find a woman perfect for you, and you'll be in your kluge-vana.


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## Inconsequenti-AL (Apr 19, 2005)

I've no desire to pigeonhole myself into some geek stereotype, so I don't do it. Love gaming and it's my main hobby, but IMO there's tons of other interesting stuff out there. I enjoy giving new stuff a go. Never know what you might like.*

On the flip side, I've got some friends who revel in their geek stereotypes and they're happy with it. 

Guess that's the important bit - whatever makes you happy with the way your life is?




			
				Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> I'm through beating my head against a wall trying to convice people that showering and not looking like twat will get them further in life, while listening to them play off their personality flaws as points of pride.






Though I figure those could be a bonus in some situations. I've turned up clean, with short hair and in a suit to some IT job interviews. Managed not to rant or spit at any of the interviewers. Reckon I got an extra grilling about my qualifications for it.  


* - I'd say there's some things you shouldn't try, but I'm not going into details.


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## TiQuinn (Apr 19, 2005)

Since when did taking a shower become optional?  Or a lifestyle choice that "defines" someone?  Majoru, have you ever considered it's a common frickin courtesy to others that you bathe before you interact with people?  Seriously, if you want to make that the thing that defines who you are, don't gripe about how chicks aren't into you.


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## Kanegrundar (Apr 19, 2005)

I gotta say something here.  I AM A GEEK!!!  However, that is not all that I am.  I play computer games, D&D, love watching and reading fantasy and sci-fi, paint minis, play board games, and love talking about my hobbies with anyone that will listen.  I have some geeky Star Wars shirts and have strage tastes in music.  At the same time, I don't wear those shirts to work or out to the bar.  I dress nice, shower daily, enjoy the occasional beer and cigar.  I love playing and watching baseball and golf.  Football and Nascar chews up most of my Sundays.  I'm overweight, but I still get out and hike, go camping, hunting, fishing, or find something to do outside in the fresh air.  These are all parts of me, but I still find ways to get past my initial fear of being in public and meeting new people.  I've ran into people that think my hobbies are wierd, but I don't catch any flak about it because I dress nice and present myself as well as I can (I still don't style my hair, though, just never figured it out).

It sounds like you're painting yourself into a corner.  All you're putting out there is GEEK!  However, dressing nice and smelling nice doesn't make you someone you're not.  That's all part of being part of a society.  First impressions only come once, and if you give one of a slob dork, then that's likely what people will think of you further on.  It may not be nice or even the right thing to do, but that's the way they are.  You can either make an attempt to look like someone others will like to know, or you can be left to the fringes of society.  

Plus, broaden your horizons.  There are gamer girls out there, but they aren't so prolific that you can count on finding one that is into it without you convincing her to try.  My fiance never played a game, but once I got her to try.  She still doesn't really like it, but she has found a couple board games she likes and will play with me every now and then.  However, if I didn't have other interests beyond gaming or even display the willingness to listen to her interests that I really am not into, I wouldn't have gotten the chance to introduce her to gaming in the first place.  You don't have to like or be involved in sports or mainstream movies and music, but you should still be able to carry on a conversation about something other than the new D&D book.  

I'm totally with Teflon BIlly on this one.  Being a smelly slob is NEVER a source of pride.  You can always find time to get some nicer clothes for work or bite the bullet and take a 5 minute shower.  Heck, I was in a gaming group in college that had a player that was asked to leave due to his horrendous hygiene issues.  I felt bad for the guy, but he thought that showering would change him from a "rebel" to a mainstream "sheep".  Yeah, well, that was absolutely stupid.  If he wanted to be around others, at least he should have tired to look and smell like it.  He continued being himself, but he did it alone.

Kane


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## I'm A Banana (Apr 19, 2005)

First of all, lonely for companionship? Want a good girl by your side? Welcome to being a dude, dude. or, frick, a human being. I'd imagine a good 90% of those who don't have SO's want one. It's pretty normal.

But you can't let it define your strategy in life. You can't see a girl and instantly judge if she's right for you. Because that's still selfish. That's still interested in her only for what she gets you (namely, away from loneliness). It's selfish, and it radiates a lack of confidence, which people can smell like a shark smells blood in the water. 

"Getting a girl" probably requires first and foremost that "getting a girl" isn't first and foremost on your list of things to do. Once it isn't, you'll be more natural, be more confident, and be more concerned with people for who they are, rather than what they can do for you.



> She plays Rifts and WoW. Of course, she probably fits the "gamer" stereotype as well. She was overweight, mid 20s, glasses, hairy arms. I didn't think she looked bad, mind you, I have different sensibilities than most people. But, still, I'm kind of a hack and slasher myself, and I have a feeling if we talked too much we'd probably end up hating each other anyways. Sometimes the LARP/table top, Hack and Slash/Roleplayer prejudice is almost worse than the non-gamer prejudice for us.




See, this is madness. If you think she's worthy of your attention, what's the harm in finding out about what she likes, and why she likes it? What's wrong with actually having a conversation here? And why, for the sake of all that is polyhedral, is one's *gaming style* going to stand in the way of a good relationship? It's doomed before it's started because your fashionable tragedy decelares that LARPers and hack-n-slashers cannot get along. This is a gross stereotype that you're foisting on her, and on pretty much everyone. 

You are not a hack-n-slasher. You're a human being, just like she is. If you think she's worthy of your attention, GIVE IT TO HER. You don't need to foist your gaming style on her, and you don't need to RP when you hang out together. Go see a movie (Sin City = Good. ). Go to dinner. Talk about politics and religion and families and other minutae of daily life. Be actively interested in who she is, and don't you *dare* think to judge this thing a failure from the start just because she MIGHT hate you SOMEDAY MAYBE. Dude, everyone might hate you someday maybe. Until then, follow the happiness wherever it may lead you.

You're defining your world in stereotypes and poor expectations. The future ain't written, and the past ain't never true.Don't tell her she will hate you. Let her decide that.

And if she does, so what? What have you lost? Time? Money? Effort? You're losing that sitting here reading ENWorld, buddy, might as well spend it chasing a skirt.


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## Kanegrundar (Apr 19, 2005)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> And if she does, so what? What have you lost? Time? Money? Effort? You're losing that sitting here reading ENWorld, buddy, might as well spend it chasing a skirt.




Can we get a HOORAH?!?!?!  Excellent advice, KM.

Kane


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## Lasher Dragon (Apr 19, 2005)

Majoru Oakheart said:
			
		

> I could probably go on a diet, do huge amounts of exercise and try to slim down while switching to more stylish clothes and try to go out and do less geeky things. Then again, if I did, I wouldn't be me anymore.




You are you no matter what you choose to do (with the exception of some notable drugs, trust me, I know). Seems to me like you are having a moment of clarity in your life, one of many you will have. There are several ways of dealing with this. Myself, I try to really feel if the current situation is to my liking, or if I am just stuck in a rut and need a change. What you must realize is that were you to completely change your lifestyle, inside you are still you. Let's say you decided to wear khakis and polo shirts, bathe everyday, and shop at Old Navy. You would still be you (a very unhappy you, at least I would be LOL - I despise Old Navy), yet the general public would view you in a completely different light. Sometimes this is fun to do as a gag - pick a day, and all day wear a style of clothing completely different than anything you would wear. You know if you went far enough if your friends either a) laugh their arses off when they see you (no, I'm not talking drag or anything), or b) they don't even recognize you at first. I did this once and I had a blast - in college I was "goth lite", and one day for the hell of it I decided to wear khakis, a sports shirt, and shave my goattee down to a moustache. I couldn't look in the mirror without laughing hysterically at my appearance. You know what? Years later, I love khakis. They are extremely comfortable!

Every so often in my life I find myself bored with my current situation - be it my job, my style, my social group, my hobbies, etc.. When this happens, I try to think of what I _want_ AND what I think would improve my "social standing" (AKA getting chicks hehehe). I reinvent myself. If you have never done it, it may seem an impossible task at first. However, for me anyway, even though it was hard at first, it was well worth it in the end. In high school I was a loner, I had friends, but most were older and/or not in my school. I was a geek as well, not too bad, but geeky enough. The only HS sport I did was track (pole vault LOL). Since then, I have gone through many metamorphoses and would be hard-pressed to find someone nowadays who would classify me as a geek (even though I still am!!!). I suck at basic auto maintainance, I DJ at the biggest club in town, I play D&D religiously, I am constantly getting hit on (my wife hates that), I play videogames until I can barely keep my eyes open, people always want me to go to their parties, I fix people's computers for them, etc. etc..

If you are not happy, change. It will be hard the first time. Just remember that you don't have to give up the things you love to change the way society sees you.


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## Scribble (Apr 19, 2005)

Just felt the need to chime in on this thread...



> I agree that I do sit around waiting for things to happen to me too much and I should be more proactive. I'm perfectly aware of that. However, I have talked to all sorts of people, I go out of my way to listen to stories people tell and what I find more often than not is...they don't really interest me. A large amount of the real world is just really boring to me. I deal with it when I have to and no more. I do like music and can talk about the music industry, current times, some politics, the movie industry, philosophy. I like talking about these things.




A large amount of the real world is boring to everyone... Doesn't mean there AREN'T people out there who enjoy the same things you do. I enjoy those same things. I enjoy rading, writing, gaming, philosophy, movies, art, video games... But I also workout and go to bars, and clubs... I like to dance, and I can talk to girls!!! OOOOOHHHHH

I used to be like you are. I wasn't very proactive. But sometimes the good things come to those who wait philosophy can be perverted in a bad way. (Like the dark side you know?)

I found that if I went out and took hold of my life, more good things happened, and I finally felt good. 



> However, I have no interest in sitting around hearing about this time that one of my friends got so drunk they could barely walk and then when they passed out, they woke up at someone's house they had never met before and got out of there before the other person woke up. To me that just reads "ok, you did something stupid...why do I need to know about it?"




Neither do I... Well ok that's not true, sometimes I do, because sometimes it's fun to laugh *at* people not *with* people.

But not everyone who enjoys other hobbies then D&D and Sci-Fi is like your example...



> I also have no interest in spending multiple hours each week doing exercises whose only purpose is to make me look better to other people. As it is now, I barely manage to fit sleeping, work, eating, and some time for myself into each day.




I was that way to before I started exersizing. "I don't have the time." But I realized it was an exscuse. Exersizing does a lot more for you then just make you look good for other people.

Sure it does do that, but that also increases your self confidence, and gives you more energy. (Which also increases your confidence.)  So the poster who said you end up sleeping less was right... You have a lot more energy to do things which ends up giving you more time... It's kind of neat.  

Also you're a lot more healthy, and will live longer.  Which I guess kind of means you have more time overall right?



> I dress in nice clothes for nice occasions. I shower as often as I have time for and is required by society. If I'm going somewhere with people around, I will shower and get dressed up, unless I know it's mostly geeks.




Thats good. I personally don't think you have to dress to the hilt at all times. Personally I enjoy looking good to the opposite sex. It gives me more confidence. I tend to dress "well" most of the time. If it's gaming night, I'll usually throw on something "comfortable" but overall I dress "well."

I shower just about every day. It helps me wake up and feel good. There are some days when I'm lazy and just sit around all day and I don't shower. I think it's important though to be hygenic... 

It's important to "be yourself" but dressing well and taking care of yourself won't change that. I saw Fight Club to, but that's fiction... If you started liking a new game system would you no longer be the same person you once were? We change every day, but we're still the same person.

Looking presentable and taking care of yourself does tend to make people treat you more seriously. It isn't bad to be presentable for the sake of what others think.

It effects your job (co workers tend to treat you with more respect, it's even easier to get a job you want) your social life (I like having girls dig me, again confidence is boosted...) and gives you more energy. 




> As with anything else, people have various levels of inherent ability at social skills. For some people, socializing comes naturally; for others, it does not




I agree with this statement. Socializing is a skill. I used to not have it and figured I just wasn't good at it. I even invented exscuses for myself as to why I didn't try...

Then I got over it. I started doing it. Sure it was awkward and weird at first but you get better at it.  

Personally it started becoming fun... Especially talking to girls... it's like a weird psychological game. 



in anycase... This post was too long and who really cares about my opinion anyway.


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## Teflon Billy (Apr 19, 2005)

tetsujin28 said:
			
		

> I love NASCAR, motorcycle racing, ice hockey and baseball. And beer.




NASCAR isn't a sport 

*_ducks_*


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## Teflon Billy (Apr 19, 2005)

AOS said:
			
		

> Haven't met anyone who games like that stereotype to be honest, the reason stereotypes exist is because it's seen as ok to laugh at a stereotype in a cartoon (Simpson's comic shop guy) and then they are brought up in discussions as a extreme level to illustrate a point.




Go to a Convention. Then report back


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## maddman75 (Apr 19, 2005)

Majoru Oakheart said:
			
		

> See, I'm stuck in a unique situation.  I really like who I am, I like my life EXCEPT for one point.  I don't like the fact that I am completely without female companionship at the moment.  I've had gfs and I'm not a virgin or anything.  But I get lonely a decent amount.  Otherwise, I have lots of friends who I game with multiple times per week.  I go out to movies, play computer games, spend time with my family, play board games.  But, yes, I wish I knew of a female who liked the same things I did.  I actually know only one, and they are engaged to another person in one my my groups.




Majoru,  I was once very much like you.  I took my poor dressing and style as a badge of honor, I wasn't going to get all dressed up just to please other people, I wasn't going to hide the real me, etc. etc.  I finally grew out of it.  Got a good haircut, contacts, learned to dress, and learned to socialize.  I can't tell you how much better life is now.

Sure, I'll still wear my 'I survived orc and pie' shirt to a game, and I do still play games.  But I also go to bars to hang out, hook up with my buddies and just hang out and goof off.  We don't need the excuse of an RPG to talk to each other, playing an RPG is just one of many things we could do.  But do you know what, I'm still me.  Hell, I'm a better me.

Take the clothing.  You seem to think that a female should like you for you, no matter what kind of shirt you wear.  Well, sorry.  It doesn't work that way.  Think about the signal you send when you go to a social function wearing a Star Wars tshirt.  You are saying that you aren't going to bother with making yourself presentable.  I show up in some nice clothes, freshly ironed, neat haircut, right amount of cologne - who do you think they'd want to talk to more?  Its not that they can't see past the tshirt, its that you aren't putting forth any effort.

Further, I'll do a little speculating.  This is based on my own demons, but I'm willing to bet its a pretty common phenomena.  You don't wear them in spite of the fact that the 'normals' don't like them.  You wear them (and have the gamer/geek behaviours) because the normals don't like them.  From whatever happened in the past, you have been convinced that you aren't worth being with them, being around them.  If you try it will result only in pain.  So you wear the dorky clothes, you don't shower, as a shield so they won't try to get to know you.  I was a master at this, and have only recently recovered truth be told.

But the truth is that when you meet new people, they won't have any preconceptions about you.  Weight is NOT a huge issue, as long as you aren't morbidly obese.  I've got a gut myself (6' and 250), and the girls like me just fine.  Exercise is at least as useful in the self confidence and self respect that it gives you as in the physical benefits it can bring.  They only know what you tell them, and how you dress and act is not a reflection of the 'real you', its a reflection of how well you respect yourself.

If you want female attention, you're going to have to put forth the image that they find attractive.  I can't express how much happier I am now that I've cast aside these illusions of 'the real me'.  Its always you.


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## maddman75 (Apr 19, 2005)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> NASCAR isn't a sport
> 
> *_ducks_*




Neither is hocky.  How can you have a sport without a ball?  All hockey has is a puck.  The only other place I've every heard of a puck is the little air freshner they drop in urinals.  Something that involves batting around a bathroom freshner is not a sport.

*_quacks*_


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## Teflon Billy (Apr 19, 2005)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> You're defining your world in stereotypes and poor expectations. The future ain't written, and the past ain't never true.Don't tell her she will hate you. Let her decide that.
> 
> And if she does, so what? What have you lost? Time? Money? Effort? You're losing that sitting here reading ENWorld, buddy, might as well spend it chasing a skirt.




I think you are going tmake me cry  :\ 

That was beautiful, man.


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## Elf Witch (Apr 19, 2005)

Majoru Oakheart said:
			
		

> I'm not sure I have any idea what it's about actually.  Then again, when did not having a point has never stopped me from posting in the past.  *grin*
> 
> I think it had to do with seeing the post from Elf Witch that seemed to make fun of, what I felt was me, and a large amount of gamers I know.  I don't like gamers fighting other gamers or making fun of them.  I mean, our hobby is small enough as it is, and I feel most of the non-gamers make fun of us enough as is, we don't have to add to it by making it a war between the "clean cut, normal job, closet gamers" and the "overweight, geeky, dedicated gamers".
> 
> I also think the second point is, that I have no idea how a stereotype that's probably as old as I am manages to fit me so closely despite no effort on my part to fit into that stereotype.  I am who I am, I've always been this way.  I guess I'm just looking for a reason why the stereotype exists.  I assume it must mean that a significant number of gamers fit the stereotype.  The question is why?  Why are all these people all over the place all similar in appearance and attitude.  There is a reason the comic book guy is funny.




I was not making fun of anyone. I don't make fun of people because I know how that feels. I spent my teen age years being picked on because I was fat and a geek. 

In my 20s I found SF fandom and it was like coming home. I met people who accepted me for who I was and did not judge me. It was great. I was heavily involved in putting on cons and this taught me a lot. I learned a lot of self confidence I learned to speak in front of large groups of people. As I gained self confidence I found that I could talk to anyone even people who were not in fandom. 

SF fandom is the same as gaming fandom it is made up of different kinds of people. And there were your sterotypical fan who still lived at home had hygenie problems and did not really connect with the mundane world. I never made fun of these people I could have been one of these people if things had been different. I had a lot of scars and bittnerness coming out of my teens and I could have gone this route and said to hell with society why should I try and even try to fit into a society that had treated me so badly.

But luckily there were a lot of other people in fandom who had their lives together and were able to balance their fan activities with real life. And that was the road I chose to take. 

As for weight I struggle with mine all the time I keep trying to lose. I do walk everyday. I take extra care with my grooming because fat woman are judged more harshly than men I may be fat but no one can say I am a slob. I do feel better about me when I have my make up on. I like being a woman and doing girlie things.  

I don't like sports and really hate watching them so what I follow the news enough to know how the local teams are doing so I can at least be part of a conversation. And it does not take that much time. 

I love to read mainly fantasy and mystery novels but I make a point now to fit in non fiction books to expand my mind. I am on AOL so I read the news on the internet everyday just snippets if that is all I have time for. 

I try and find a balance in my life between my hobbies, responsibilities and the people I care about.


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## AOS (Apr 19, 2005)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> Go to a Convention. Then report back




Will do when I get the chance, the last convention was on a saturday and I work then :\


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## Teflon Billy (Apr 19, 2005)

maddman75 said:
			
		

> Neither is hocky.  How can you have a sport without a ball?  All hockey has is a puck.  The only other place I've every heard of a puck is the little air freshner they drop in urinals.  Something that involves batting around a bathroom freshner is not a sport.
> 
> *_quacks*_


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## iwatt (Apr 19, 2005)

This is slightly off topic.... I always thought all this extreme high scholl stereotyping was something you just saw in the movies. I come from a completely different educational background, which maybe explains why I'm having so much trouble relating to this thread. Is there any "reason" for the extreme clique forming at American High Schools? Also, is there a reason why intelligent individuals can't let go of things that happened more than 10 years ago? I don't want to start a flame war, and I'm not implying there weren't problems in my school years, but I find it remarkable that High school has such an extreme effect on the personalities of so many Americans.


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## MarauderX (Apr 19, 2005)

I recently took a professional engineering exam, and the cross section of people taking it was identical to that of gamers.  When I was there I heard a different language of geekdom, that which was related to methodology and engineering issues.  At the exam there was enough geekhood to easily overwealm an equal number of gamers.  It is not just gamers that have these 'symptoms.'  Don't think this industry is special for that.

I mentioned it to my wife, and she had the good point that people make an effort to get what they want.  If they want to be better looking then they will work at it and achieve it.  If they are lazy and want to ignore it, fine, but not everyone finds that acceptable.  

If you're worried about self image, then do something about it.  If you're worried about what other people are thinking about you, then work on it.  Put yourself together, dress well, eat better, etc., it's not too hard to figure out, after all we understand how PrCs, DR, Bull Rush and Saves work.  You can't help but get a clue about the physical qualities that people prefer, just look at any GAP advert.  But you have to want to.

So it doesn't matter what you geek out on, often times there will be some that just put thier effort into that interest and let everything else fall behind.


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## Scribble (Apr 19, 2005)

oh man... a foreign exchange student!!!  

you're even worse then the geeks in popularity!!!


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## Lasher Dragon (Apr 19, 2005)

iwatt said:
			
		

> This is slightly off topic.... I always thought all this extreme high scholl stereotyping was something you just saw in the movies. I come from a completely different educational background, which maybe explains why I'm having so much trouble relating to this thread. Is there any "reason" for the extreme clique forming at American High Schools? Also, is there a reason why intelligent individuals can't let go of things that happened more than 10 years ago? I don't want to start a flame war, and I'm not implying there weren't problems in my school years, but I find it remarkable that High school has such an extreme effect on the personalities of so many Americans.




How long did you go to high school, and what were the hours?


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## Empress (Apr 19, 2005)

Majoru Oakheart said:
			
		

> Naa, it works the other way around.  I wear the shirt because that is what I like and who I see myself as.  The shirt is not me, I am the shirt.  If I didn't like that stuff or I cared about what other people thought of me much, I wouldn't wear it.  To me, not wearing it is like pretending that I'm someone else.



That's just a welcome excuse not to wear something else, because it's easy to appear like a slob and disregard what people are saying. Because if you'd actually make an attempt to clean up, and people would still paint you as slob, what would that make you? A slob. But now, these people just don't know the "real you".

And of course you care about what other people think. You posted a rant on a message board because of what other people might think of you!

And I believe funsagite said it correctly: If you believe you are no longer yourself when you don't wear that "Iron Maiden" shirt, you're way too superficial for your own good.



> Besides, right now I have a sweater and dress pants on.



 Even if you wore lingerie, what's that supposed to tell us? That you are capable of dressing differently? Of course you are. You just don't want to because of society's stupid rules.



> I fit the stereotype, as I pointed out, not because I'm trying to be that stereotype, but



...because it's easy to hide behind that stereotype.



> I find that I have the most in common with geeks because I don't have to go through an explaination process to explain what I'm interested in.  I can say "Hey, don't you think that part is cool in Return of the Jedi where the emperor is using lightning on Luke?" and expect an answer back like "ya, but wasn't it cooler when the death star was destroyed" instead of "Umm, I don't remember that, I haven't seen Star Wars in years."



Wow. That is really a unique experience. Not. And you don't have to be a slob to talk about "Jedi".



> More than willing to admit this.  If there's anything that describes me well, it's lazy.  Heck, if I was less lazy, I might take up swimming as a hobby or go to the gym.  But, well, I AM lazy.  It's been me for as long as I can remember.



Oh, so you're lazy. I can already see it. "I'm sorry, I'd like to help you out. But I'm so lazy." Great excuse - one size fits all. Except that it's no excuse anyone will ever accept. But life is easy being lazy, isn't it? Just do whatever you feel like, right? Who cares if the bathtub hasn't been cleaned in six months - nobody is ever going to see it.

But then - you'd better not invite anybody home. What if they see the bathtub. You know "being lazy" won't cut it. And what better way to avoid people than to make them avoid you? Yeah. You're not the first one on this road, and you're not gonna be the last. It's just a matter of taking the exit before it's too late, and you're a fatbeard.



> No, actually, I talked to her just fine.  And I enjoyed it.  I probably will try to talk to her again, but it's unlikely I'll get to do anything with her.



And that's why you won't get to do anything with her. I mean, she could become a great friend. Or a lover. Or a great horror story to tell your friends. But if you go at it with such an attitude, you can just as well not go at it.

I'll tell you a secret: Women aren't perfect. Your coworker probably wondered as well whether she hit a nerve with her geekiness. And maybe she hides the fact that the last time she confronted the Sabbat on the outskirts of Chicago, she had a load of fun dominating them while the Gangrel tore them to pieces. But YOU will never know, because you actually don't want to know. See below. 



> Nor do I really like any of them enough to want to spend more time with them then required.
> 
> I agree that I do sit around waiting for things to happen to me too much and I should be more proactive.  I'm perfectly aware of that.  However, I have talked to all sorts of people, I go out of my way to listen to stories people tell and what I find more often than not is...they don't really interest me.




Of course they don't. You're a special snowflake, you're more intelligent than they are, and you don't have any patience for their base instincts. What could the company of other people give you? How could they actually enrich your life? No, you don't take them seriously, because if you would, you'd also have to take their opinion of yourself seriously. And you're not going to face that, am I right? What if they pierce the image you have worked so hard to built up, to hide behind?



> A large amount of the real world is just really boring to me.  I deal with it when I have to and no more.  I do like music and can talk about the music industry, current times, some politics, the movie industry, philosophy.  I like talking about these things.



Then talk about that! Do you really think you can only talk to geeks about movies, politics, music? Gah.



> However, I have no interest in sitting around hearing about this time that one of my friends got so drunk they could barely walk and then when they passed out, they woke up at someone's house they had never met before and got out of there before the other person woke up.  To me that just reads "ok, you did something stupid...why do I need to know about it?"



And you say of yourself you're not socially inept? Do you know why your friend tells you this? Because he wants you to empathize with him, with his ordeal, and also because he wants you to experience some of the fun he had, if only indirectly.

Fun? Yes. I can get behind you on doing only the rationally appropriate, on being always in control. But unfortunately, most things that are fun are also a little bit on the stupid side. Arguing about the poor workers killed on the second Death Star? Stupid, but fun. Getting drunk and waking up where you can't remember? Extremely stupid, but possibly also extremely fun - if it doesn't happen every second day. Playing poker the whole night, smoking cigars? Stupid, costly, and fun. Switching to strip poker - now we're talking!

But you'd have to let yourself go for a while. And maybe what comes out of hiding then, what you will loosen your grip on, will also be you but a part of you you would rather not admit is there. 



> I also have no interest in spending multiple hours each week doing exercises whose only purpose is to make me look better to other people.



The purpose of exercise is to make *you* feel better about yourself. A healthy mind in a healthy body, and all that. You wouldn't believe how great it feels to run through the woods for half an hour, breathing fresh air, and then taking a shower to cleanse yourself. It's not that other people will find you more attractive - it's that you yourself will feel better. It doesn't matter if you actually lose weight, what's important is that you don't think of yourself as unattractive anymore. 



> As it is now, I barely manage to fit sleeping, work, eating, and some time for myself into each day.



Pfft. You work what? 8 hours? 10? How long do you eat? Let's say half an hour each in the morning and at noon, and an hour for dinner. You sleep 8 hours? 9? That leaves you with 3 hours every day to do as you please. If you run half an hour, then have a shower, every second day, you take at most half an hour per day away from that. Is that really so difficult? No, it's not. Of course not. And you know it. But - I know - you're lazy.



> I dress in nice clothes for nice occasions.  I shower as often as I have time for and is required by society.  If I'm going somewhere with people around, I will shower and get dressed up, unless I know it's mostly geeks.



Our group consists of geeks, and yet all of us shower every day, six times a week at least. We wouldn't accept you. And, yeah, our problem. But we're great people, and fun to be around. I'm even single at the moment. So maybe it's your problem, as well? 



> Just no real interest in most non-fantasy books.



O.k., what have you read (and I'm not talking about forced reading for school)? There are great, wonderful, terrifyingly enjoyable books around that are like the Toreador sire to most fantasy books' neonates. You don't want to have an interest in them, is what you mean. Read "Life of Pi", for example, and you'll see that many books have a lot in common with fantasy, but are better. Or read a book about the movie industry (since you like to talk about that), e.g. "Easy Riders, Sitting Bulls" by Peter Biskind. There's a subforum for books here - I'm sure a lot of people will gladly point you to non-fantasy books that will open your mind, blow you away (the two I offered above are not even the cream of the crop).


> I don't have much time to read anymore anyways.



Look, nobody has time to read. Time to read is always stolen time. Nobody can afford to spend two hours on the latest Grisham, and yet thousands of people do. The thing is, no matter how valuable the time you stole, with the right book it's worth it.



> I have at least 3 or 4 D&D books that I've been meaning to actually read for the last 6 months or so and haven't gotten around to it yet.



Of course. You're so stressed out by working, eating, sleeping and having 3 games per week. I can totally relate. I'm sorry, you really have a tough schedule going on there.



> But also, that extra hour of Knights of the Old Republic is a lot more fun than the hour of exercise.



Than the first ten hours maybe. But then, you'll be looking forward to excercising. Knights of the Old Republic is not going to run away. You can play an hour later, if you must.



> So, I've now wasted one hour of my time travelling in order to spend 1 hour doing something that I don't like doing so OTHER people can like what they see in me.  I hate wasting time and try to optimize the use of it.  If something is fun and makes me happy, it's a good use of time, if it doesn't, it gets scrapped.



Look, I know I seem harsh, but I come from a similar place you're in. What you're saying here is, you hate wasting time and yet you'd rather spend your time playing videogames than doing something proactive like going out? What's the benefit you get out of playing KotOR? Do you earn money with it? The pursuit of happiness is not bad, per se, but what you are looking for is instant gratification, and instant gratification will always ring hollow. Having finished Jade Empire for the third time will not make you happy. It will only serve as a clothesline to hang false smiles from, to hide the loneliness behind. Someday you'll turn the X-Box off and then?

Don't let your life run past you. And I repeat, it's not about your looks, but how you feel about your looks. I've seen the ugliest men get great-looking women; heck, I've been attracted to some of those men myself, only because they were confident for who they were. And whoever that was, it sure as hell didn't depend on what shirt they wore.


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## iwatt (Apr 19, 2005)

Lasher Dragon said:
			
		

> How long did you go to high school, and what were the hours?




First of all.....I'm not American. Never went to an American High school. There are 5 billiion people in the world out there, of which you guys are only 250 million. Those numbers not withstanding, Hollywood does have a huge cultural impact in the world.   

But I'll take your question on face value: I went to school in Chile (Long/thin country in the West Coast of South America, reknown for its wines and Copper mines). The Chilean system has the whole 12 year span in the same school. That means the 1st graders are in the same location as the Seniors. Another important difference is that students remain in the same classroom the whole day and it is teachers who shift from classroom to classroom. This is true during the whole school experience. When I was in school, my schedules were: In at 8:30 AM, had a 45 minute lunch break and then on to classes up to 4:30 PM. Then, if you had after school activities (theater/sports/etcc) you stay longer.

About Chile: this country is predominantly Catholic with strong family values. You don't leave home when you're 18. You don't send your grand parents to retirement homes. You have large family groups. I'm guessing this is different from the American norm, from what I can infer from my exposure to American culture (albeit this is based mainly on TV and Movies so it might be skewed    ). I don't think any system is better than another, I just want to clarify some cultural mores which might explain differences in "high school experiences".


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## maddman75 (Apr 19, 2005)

iwatt said:
			
		

> This is slightly off topic.... I always thought all this extreme high scholl stereotyping was something you just saw in the movies. I come from a completely different educational background, which maybe explains why I'm having so much trouble relating to this thread. Is there any "reason" for the extreme clique forming at American High Schools? Also, is there a reason why intelligent individuals can't let go of things that happened more than 10 years ago? I don't want to start a flame war, and I'm not implying there weren't problems in my school years, but I find it remarkable that High school has such an extreme effect on the personalities of so many Americans.




Did you read the article about nerds linked above.  It matched my experiences 100%.  It was a strict caste system, and your peers let you know exactly where you stood.  I myself got in with what the article called freaks - though then (the early 90s) they were called 'hoods'.  The scary looking kids with Metallica or Ozzy Osbourne shirts and denim jackets, pierced ears and long hair, spending lunch smoking at the gas station across the street from the school.  You also had the jocks, the rich kids (often the same), the nerds, and the losers.  Only real difference between the nerds and losers is that the nerds were at least smart.  Losers had nothing going for them, and usually were poor.  

Membership in these different tribes was determined largely by uniform.  Name brands and overpriced sneakers got you in with the rich jocks.  Hand me downs and thrift store clothes got you in with the losers.  Nerds could come either way - a nerd in Nikes is still a nerd.  I listed my uniform above.  Another part that rang true was those at the top of the food chain really didn't pick on the lower ones.  They sometimes even defended them.

Why is it like that?  As the article said, the teens are largely left to their own devices to set up their own societies, and that most often looks like Lord of the Flies.  Teenagers don't have a fully developed conscious, and therefore can be horribly cruel to one another.  

Ultimately, you learn that high school doesn't matter.  No one is going to care if you were the biggest loser or most popular guy.  In fact, there almost seems to be an inverse correlation.  Most of the time when I see one of the popular kids, who were treated as gods on earth in the old days, they are now doing something terribly thrilling like tending bar or waiting tables.  Not that there's anything wrong with those professions - just that these people were assumed to be so much better than everyone else.  Meanwhile the nerds, and the brighter of the hoods, go on to have actual careers.  Its like the popular ones burn bright in high school then burn out, while the rest of us come into our own later and stay that way a lot longer.


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## I'm A Banana (Apr 19, 2005)

And lest Mr. Oakheart get discouraged because we're kinda being jerks about this, remember that we wouldn't be jerks about this if we didn't care.   It's Tuff Luv, like the drill sergeant that shouts at you to make you feel worse so you'll try and be better. Constructive criticism, we to destroy you to build you back up, etc. Take it to heart, but don't take it personally -- it's for your own good.   



> I find that I have the most in common with geeks because I don't have to go through an explaination process to explain what I'm interested in. I can say "Hey, don't you think that part is cool in Return of the Jedi where the emperor is using lightning on Luke?" and expect an answer back like "ya, but wasn't it cooler when the death star was destroyed" instead of "Umm, I don't remember that, I haven't seen Star Wars in years."




I believe if I were in that situation, rather than judging the person unworthy of my attention, I'd say: "You haven't?! Dude, swing by my place Saturday, and I will show it to you. You don't remember how cool it is."

Or, y'know, if they express no interest in seeing it again, I'd change the subject. My hobbies (such as watching Star Wars) don't encompass my entire conversational ability. Maybe ask: "So what do you think was the most cool moment of bad guys torturing good guys in cinema?" Shift the convo back to them. People like to talk about themselves. Human beings are pretty self-centered....social skill is just making others feel like you care about them.  

...as for this:


> Is there any "reason" for the extreme clique forming at American High Schools? Also, is there a reason why intelligent individuals can't let go of things that happened more than 10 years ago? I don't want to start a flame war, and I'm not implying there weren't problems in my school years, but I find it remarkable that High school has such an extreme effect on the personalities of so many Americans.




Man, if this was ever a can of social and phsycological worms, you've found it...there's so many different viens of crazy that go into high school cliques and self-identification at that point....

For simplicity, let's say society values some passtimes more than others -- Football > Theatre > Chess. The farther down the chain you go, the more isolated and estranged from tne normal happenings of social life you become. Chess teams don't have cheerleaders, and no one has a homecoming dance for the D&D crowd. This gets reinforced by natural human cruelty -- if you're not part of my group, you are worse than I am. 

Compound that with the idea that HS is "the most important time of your life" and that up until about 45 years ago (and maybe more for some regions), people pretty much graduated high school, got married, raised kids, and that's it....well, people take a lot of definition from this point.


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## iwatt (Apr 19, 2005)

maddman75 said:
			
		

> Ultimately, you learn that high school doesn't matter.  No one is going to care if you were the biggest loser or most popular guy.




Hey I know that   . But maybe it's just these threads and the typical teen movies, but I still see a lot of people worried about the labels they had in High School. At least that is the impression I get looking "in" from outside.


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## freebfrost (Apr 19, 2005)

Empress said:
			
		

> That's just a welcome excuse not to wear something else, because it's easy to appear like a slob and disregard what people are saying. Because if you'd actually make an attempt to clean up, and people would still paint you as slob, what would that make you? A slob. But now, these people just don't know the "real you".




As much as everyone is trying hard to be nice and helpful, I think that sometimes the cold hard truth works best.  I was going to chime in with that but I don't think I could do a better job than Empress just did.    

Nothing will change until you change your attitude.


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## iwatt (Apr 19, 2005)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> Compound that with the idea that HS is "the most important time of your life" and that up until about 45 years ago (and maybe more for some regions), people pretty much graduated high school, got married, raised kids, and that's it....well, people take a lot of definition from this point.




Maybe you have something here. Is the belief that high school is "the most important time of your life" prevalent in american society? I can tell you straight up that in South America it isn't.  Down here the most important part of your life is when you form a family. And people do look askance at those who don't/haven't formed one yet. I'm 27 and not even trying   , but a lot of the mainstream thinks I should start thinking about it.


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## I'm A Banana (Apr 19, 2005)

Well, the teen movies do make things out to be a little more extreme than they actually are. Have you seen _The Breakfast Club_?   



> Is the belief that high school is "the most important time of your life" prevalent in american society?




Depends upon the locality, but I'd say in a significant number of regions, what you do in high school will paint the picture for how you live your life from that moment. Up until recently, marrying your "high school sweetheart" was considered par for the course -- my parents did that.

Of course, I'm also in no great hurry to have a family. I was born by the time my parents were this age. I'm willing to let it slide a little bit longer while I get stuff figured out.


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## Kanegrundar (Apr 19, 2005)

iwatt said:
			
		

> Maybe you have something here. Is the belief that high school is "the most important time of your life" prevalent in american society? I can tell you straight up that in South America it isn't.  Down here the most important part of your life is when you form a family. And people do look askance at those who don't/haven't formed one yet. I'm 27 and not even trying   , but a lot of the mainstream thinks I should start thinking about it.



 I think there's more of a shift to "college is the time of your life" nowadays.  (For me, college has been the time of my life before I met my fiance.)  The High School experience is one here that shapes many, many kids.  Sadly, many kids can't handle the stress.  I won't get into the reasons why I think that is here since this is way off-topic and my ideas on the issue are likely to raise the ire of some.

Kane


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## Lasher Dragon (Apr 19, 2005)

iwatt said:
			
		

> First of all.....I'm not American. Never went to an American High school. There are 5 billiion people in the world out there, of which you guys are only 250 million. Those numbers not withstanding, Hollywood does have a huge cultural impact in the world.




Yes, I realized this, which is why I asked. I have been around the world - telling me that Americans aren't the center of it is preaching to the choir.   

In our schools (for the most part - there are all kinds of schools here, I am speaking generally throughout this) you start between 7 and 8 am, and you go to all kinds of different classrooms for different classes all day long, with mostly different classmates throughout. IIRC school is out around 3 or 4.

Anyway, yes, your schooling is very different than the average American experience. I can obviously only speak for myself, so here is my view:

School to me was like a job I was overqualified for yet nonetheless forced to attend anyway. I liked some classes, don't get me wrong, but I learned more on my own via my voracious reading habits than I learned in my 12 years of regular "school". I despised homework so rarely did it. I loved projects and tests and aced those. The supposed "gifted" courses more often than not only increased the amount of homework IME, so while I got placed into those, I soon slacked my way back to regular classes. I hated math - not because I wasn't good at it (I regularly scored within the top 0.02% in the nation) but because apparently I learn a lot differently than the majority. A normal homework assignment might be a sheet with a hundred math problems on it, all the same formulae just different numbers. This disgusted me so I never did it. I learned how to do it after the first 2, I don't need it jackhammered into my head thank you very much.   

There is a huge social heirarchy in American schools. The haves/have nots, the cool/uncool, the followers/outcasts, etc.. You are labeled, whether the label fits or not, whether you give a damn or not. One thing I always find amusing is when people make fun of other people because they are more intelligent than themselves. It sounds ridiculous but it happens every day in our schools. Now, I am not saying everyone does this, or even every school is like this - but I'll bet the majority are. If you don't wear the clothes the cool people wear, or listen to the same bands as them, or if you ride the bus because your parents don't believe in buying a 16 year old kid his/her own car, you _will_ be harassed. Speaking of which, I knew a kid whose parents bought him a brand new _corvette_ for his 16th birthday!!!! Oh man it astounds me how ignorant some rich people can be sometimes.   

Speaking of stereotypes in schools, it goes beyond just the students. In high school I wore a lot of black, gray and sometimes white (didn't like white too much cuz I always stained it). Reason? I am really colorblind, and after my mother asking me a dozen times "Are you going out looking like that?!" I started wearing colors that go with anything. Anyway, my high school counselor (I was sent to him often because of my never doing homework) one day asked me if I believe in god. I told him no. He goes on to ask me if I believe in the devil. I said "Now how could I believe in the devil if I don't believe in god? That's a package deal, with one you get the other. You can't pick and choose." He called my mom the next day to tell her I was a Satanist LOL. My mom is very cool - I was home when he called and I swear she told him he was a "F*'ing idiot" and that he apparently had no qualifications to even be counseling me. Ahh it was funny.

Anyway, I got off on a tangent. Point is, American schooling can be torture for a wide variety of people.


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## Imperialus (Apr 19, 2005)

What I don't get is that you seem to equate having a social drink in a pub with getting absolutely ****faced and attempting to stumble home before passing out in a gutter swimming in your own vomit. There is only one person in the world that I know who has that kind of reaction to a single drink and that's because he has a medical condition that requires him to take a laundry list of medication none of which reacts well to booze.

Now I come from a long and prestigious line of alchoholcs and as such I moderate my drinking carefully and never drink to get smashed, if for no other reason than because I'd have to drop the better part of a paycheque to do so, however I'm a regular face at the campus bar and though I'll usually only actually buy a drink maybe once a week I'll sit down, have a smoke, feed the jukebox and hang out with people between classes. It beats sitting by myself in the cafeteria reading a novel and unless I have something pressing due I don't lack for time to finish my work. The 3.2 GPA while working is evidence of this.

You work nights, which I know can be a real damper on social engagements. Even so though why not try to talk with a few people at work during your lunch break and see if they want to get together an hour or two before work starts one day and go to a pub near work. Unless you're a truly heroic or incredibly cheep drunk no one will drink enough in two hours to be incapable of working night shift tech support. If you don't like the taste of beer, try vodka and orange juice or rum and coke or something. Vodka is a good drink especially before work, it doesn't have a strong smell and if you mix it the alcohol is barely discernable.

As for Fashion:
Take your next paycheque, yes your very next one and go buy some new cloths, and not that Conan shirt you've been eyeing at the FLGS. Go to a mall, yes a mall in all it's glorification of teenaged preppies and find a store that sells these 4 things.
1) Polo shirts
2) shirts that have logos on them that have nothing to do with barbarians
2) a variety if jeans
3) kakis.
This store has become your friend, in my case it's Bluenotes and Roots. Neither are overly trendy or expensive but they have good cloths in a variety of sizes. Buy at least one full outfit from them and try it for a day, see if you still feel like you.

Get some polo shirts for work unless your job requires that you wear a suit. Combine with kakis. Voila! A 5-minute work casual outfit. This also looks good for dinner out at a casual restaurant with the family or a casual (first) date. You look good but not like you're hung up on it, you're boss will appreciate it and your co-workers will notice. Even in this you can go for subtle humor/sense of self. I found a polo shirt a few years back that has the guy on the horse falling off. No one but you will notice unless they are looking and when they do 99% of the time they will find it hilarious.

Buy at least one button up shirt and a pair of slacks, not one with a silk screen dragon on it but avoid a plain white one as well. Try on a few until you find one that suits your complexion. Most guys our age don't have too many occasions where we really need to dress up but it really sucks to be underdressed at a semi formal occasion.

buy some T-shirts for everyday wear that are for lack of a better term "geek chic". Mostly this seems to be retro geek stuff like a shirt with a Gi-Joe or Tranformers logo on it. Find a band that you like that is at least moderately popular, in my case Led Zeppelin (listen to ramble on, claim to be a geek and then say you don't like Led Zeppelin) and the Clash and buy a couple of their shirts. Make sure that you have enough cloths that you can wear at least a clean shirt, clean underwear, and clean socks every day pants can be worn more than once but everything else should be clean each day. One other important thing about shirts, buy shirts that fit. If you are a large, buy a large, not an XL or a medium. I used to always buy large shirts that made it look as though I was swimming in them. I switched to mediums and even such a small change made a huge difference. You can still keep your gamer/startreck/starwars shirts but wear them around the house, the FLGS or to the mall never to work or when you are going out somewhere.

Jeans are great for days off and if you get a pair that fits well they will look good on almost any body type. NEVER wear sweatpants.

Get a decent pair of shoes, leather or fake leather ankle highs works great. Avoid trainers and for god's sake get laces not Velcro.

Get an decent bottle of aftershave, spend between 25 and 50 bucks, don't worry it'll last forever, and use it, not too much, a dab on each cheek after shaving is plenty. Find a deodorant that seems to work, easy way to tell is if your armpits feel damp, it isn't working.

Go to a salon or barber, a proper one not a kwick kuts or anything like that. Talk to the stylist about what kind of hairstyle would suit you. Tell them how long you are willing to spend on your hair each day and ask what sort of product they would recommend for your hair type and budget. Careful with this though since hair care products can cost a small fortune. Drop between 20 and 30 bucks on that visit. After getting a haircut you like you can go to a cheaper place as long as you take a picture of your hair after getting it cut and ask them to duplicate it. As a guy you should probably get your hair cut once every two months or so.

*edit* One other thing that looks good on almost anyone in almost every situation is save some money and spend a couple hundred dollars on a really nice leather or faux leather jacket.  I'm not talking biker jacket here but a relatively plain black or dark brown waist length spring/fall jacket.  It's a great jacket to wear with anything from your gamer shirts and jeans to the kakis and polo shirt combination.  They're also waterproof and good windbreakers.  Take good care of it and it'll last you years.

If you have a beard keep it trimmed and neat, can't offer much more advice than that since I shave.

Toss old cloths or donate them to goodwill before there are gaping holes in the knees, crotch, butt, armpit ect. Your cloths will tell you when it's coming time to retire them. Once the logo on your shirt is faded the seams on your pants are starting to fray ect it's time to go. If you aren’t wearing the same pair of pants every day a decent pair should last you at least a year or two though so when one starts to wear out on you just bite the bullet and buy a new pair.

Generally after putting together a decent closet if you budget between 50 and 100 dollers a month on personal appearance you're laughing. A hundred bucks is a pair of name brand jeans like Levis of CK when they arn't on sale or at least 3 or 4 shirts.

It'd take a bit of effort but I fully expect that within 2 or 3 months you could have yourself looking a hundred times better than you are now and still feeling like yourself. I can almost guarantee you that you'll feel more confidant and more than likely be a lot happier even if you are still single.

Anyhow I have to go write a final.


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## fusangite (Apr 19, 2005)

Wow! Look at all the posts. I agree with a great deal of the advice that has been given out except:







			
				Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> If you think she's worthy of your attention, GIVE IT TO HER. You don't need to foist your gaming style on her, and you don't need to RP when you hang out together. Go see a movie (Sin City = Good. ).



Everything else you say Midget, is right on the money. But I really don't believe Sin City is a good first date movie. Maybe it's an okay date movie once you've established mutual interests and tastes but some women today, even geeks, might find this movie's violence, sexism and racism a little much. (Not to say that I didn't enjoy the movie myself...) Anyway, I think there are probably better first date movies out there.


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## iwatt (Apr 19, 2005)

Lasher Dragon said:
			
		

> Yes, I realized this, which is why I asked. I have been around the world - telling me that Americans aren't the center of it is preaching to the choir.




Well you'd be surprised how refreshing this attitude can be.    But I'm not opening that can of worms.




			
				Lasher Dragon said:
			
		

> One thing I always find amusing is when people make fun of other people because they are more intelligent than themselves. It sounds ridiculous but it happens every day in our schools.




Well, if it makes you feel better, this isn't exclusive to american high schools  :\ . I suffered of this as well. 

I compensated in a not very mature way though   . Since i was part of the National Swim team I was in peak physical condition, so not many people would stand up to me. I also took advantage of a genetic predisposition to a heavy drinking capacity that had me winning drinking contests from a very tender age. So although you'd probably would have classified me as a geek from my reading/movie/gaming habits, i could also be classified as a jock, and even as a "Drunken Loser   " by people like Majeru.

About the social hierarchy: in Chile most of the schools are private schools. And their really isn't much of a "melting pot", which has the effect of lack of extremism. I'll hazard a guess that the natural diversity of american society does have a large "responsibility" in this clique thing. It's easier to fit in when you have a lot in common, like it is in Chile.


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## Lasher Dragon (Apr 19, 2005)

iwatt said:
			
		

> About the social hierarchy: in Chile most of the schools are private schools. And their really isn't much of a "melting pot", which has the effect of lack of extremism. I'll hazard a guess that the natural diversity of american society does have a large "responsibility" in this clique thing. It's easier to fit in when you have a lot in common, like it is in Chile.




Yes, I can see that helping. Also, forgive me if I misunderstood, but you go to school with basically the same people for the entire time you are in school, correct? This is very different from here. In America, you may go to kindergarten in one school, grade school in another, junior high another, and high school yet another. Then there is always people moving to different areas, like myself - I moved from a suburb of Chicago to a small town in Iowa halfway through Junior year of high school - that was rough. Not so much Culture Shock as Culture Curbstomp-Kick-You-When-You're-Down-Then-Take-Your-Wallet.


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## iwatt (Apr 19, 2005)

Lasher Dragon said:
			
		

> Also, forgive me if I misunderstood, but you go to school with basically the same people for the entire time you are in school, correct?




yes. It does lead to very long and close friendships. which is good.    

It also leads to entrenched power groups, and people who are "connected" which is bad.  :\ 

By the way, this school system is typical of at least "Spanish" Latin America, and probably true in Brazil as well.


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## d20Dwarf (Apr 19, 2005)

maddman75 said:
			
		

> Another part that rang true was those at the top of the food chain really didn't pick on the lower ones.  They sometimes even defended them.




This is the interesting part of my own experience...I wasn't picked on, even though I was definitely one of the oddest people at my school. Maybe it was my size, dunno. The last time I can remember being picked on was junior high, by a bully whose name I don't remember. He was inordinately strong, and a total loser (smoked, dumb as a brick, spent all his time looking for ways to act like a  ). We had a confontation in off-season once that got a bit physical, but didn't devolve into a fight (as he probably wanted). My solution? I started really taking advantage of off-season, working out hard every day. By the 5th 6 weeks, I was nearly as strong as him, and we had to spot each other on the bench, because we were the only ones other than coach that could. He quit picking on me, he still hated me, and he wasn't afraid of me, but I think he started to have a bit of grudging respect for what I'd done.

Now, I didn't change for him, I changed for me. There was a situation in my life that I didn't like, so I changed it by making positive changes in my life rather than by self-destructing, withdrawing, or becoming negative by fighting. I didn't even remember that until this thread got me thinking, and now I think it was one of the moments in my life that molded me into someone that believes in making positive changes in order to mold life to my liking.


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## nerfherder (Apr 19, 2005)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> > I find that I have the most in common with geeks because I don't have to go through an explaination process to explain what I'm interested in. I can say "Hey, don't you think that part is cool in Return of the Jedi where the emperor is using lightning on Luke?" and expect an answer back like "ya, but wasn't it cooler when the death star was destroyed" instead of "Umm, I don't remember that, I haven't seen Star Wars in years."
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I had a woman ask me about my email address (nerfherder@...) and I explained that it's a romantic line from Empire.  "Oh, I've never seen that film", she replied.  "Well, would you like to come round to mine to see it?"  "Sure".  We still haven't watched it, but have watched a bunch of other films...   

Cheers,
Liam


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## Majoru Oakheart (Apr 19, 2005)

Well, this is going to be long, so bear with me as I'd like to address as many points as possible.

First, for those who care, I showered right before posting this.

I didn't expect to go this far into my personality, but since we're here:

fusangite: I keep having plans to go on Atkins.  I agree with some of what you say, but I think you have me slightly wrong.  I agree with your methods and I appreciate what you are trying to do.

Empress: I think you have me the closest to who I am except a couple things you have are wrong.  I never said I didn't shower.  I just said some days I didn't.  See, in a way, it is your problem if you didn't want me around.  After someone smokes, they smell horrible to me.  I mean REALLY horrible.  I can barely stand being in the same room with them.  I have an allergy to smoke as well.  However, my best friend smokes.  I don't like it, but I put up with it because I like him and I don't think the smell that is around him nearly constantly is enough to lose a friend over or prevent me from gaining a new one.  I have the same reaction to most perfumes and aftershaves, can't STAND the smell of them and a lot of women I've met smell from 5 feet away.

Also, my place is a mess.  Yes, because I'm too lazy to clean most of the time.  My friends haven't stopped coming over because of it and new people who come normally accept an apology on the appearance of the place.  I find that most people aren't extremely concerned if I haven't cleaned up in the last week.  I guess we hang out with different people, but I haven't found it to be an issue.

I do care what other people think.  A LOT actually.  You are right, that's why I posted on this message board hoping for approval.  I like to feel that I'm doing the "right" thing.  But often, I'm not actually looking for it to be the popular thing or even have the majority agree with me.  I'm instead looking to find the group of people who agree with me and spend time around them to make me feel better about myself.  That's sort of my opinion on why I dress the way I do.  I feel that I'd like to know the people who think that it's great that I wear what I do.  I LIKE wearing it, so although some people might think it's stupid, or unkept or anti-social, I think of it as a shirt with someone I like written on it.  It's much better for my self esteem to be around a person who says "Cool shirt" instead of "Can't you dress in some real clothes?"  Plus, doesn't do much for my self esteem to be continually putting on clothes that I don't like just so other people will tolerate me.  Feels like I'm pretending.  I do enough role playing DURING the game.

Perhaps the best way to explain me is a short history lesson (I apologize if this starts to ramble):

Elementary School: I was good at math, switched schools in grade 2 and always kinda felt like an outcast in the new school.  I was picked last in every sport during recess and I hung out with a couple kids no one liked except me.  We'd wander around the playground using our imagination instead of playing sports when the other kids would make fun of us for not being good enough.  I spent my time outside of school watching my brother or my friends play video games.  I was in Ukrainian Immersion, did all my courses in Ukrainian.

Junior High: I decided to go to an english school, all my friends went to a different school.  I had almost no friends for 2 years of Junior High except for the kid that everyone hated and thought was a loser but I was friends with him because no one else would be my friend.  I finally joined a computer club after school where I started hanging out with the computer geeks.  I started up my own BBS (Bulletin Board System for those who don't know, it's like "internet lite" before the internet was popular).  I met some people on BBSes who played RPGs and got invited to a weekly session.

High School: Due to a falling out with the role playing group that I had joined, I was left with only about 10 friends.  I started up my own RPG group, almost all of my friends were members.  I spent most of my high school days in the computer lab, programming or trying to get this one girl to give me a chance.  For about 3 years.  Most people in my school would make fun of me for being a geek.  They'd show up every Monday and share stories of how great their weekends were because of how drunk they got.  They were all 16 at the time.

University: Right before I graduated from high school I met a girl on IRC who I hit it off with almost immediately.  We started dating.  I paid way more attention to her than I did school and dropped out after a year of Computer Science.   I lost one of my best friends when he decided that hanging out with the Engineers at the bar getting drunk every day was more important than attending our D&D sessions any longer.  I introduced my gf to gaming and she loved it.  After 3 years of being together my gf asked me to marry her.  I told her I wasn't ready yet as I was only 19.  6 months later she dumped me for a member of my RPG group saying that she didn't think I loved her enough.  Last I heard she tried to commit suicide and was on anti-depressants after she got divorced from said guy.

Last couple of years: I met another girl on IRC who lived in Australia and loved my favorite band, Barenaked Ladies.  Meanwhile, my best friend in the world got married and she didn't like gaming.  So, he stopped having anything to do with me as she didn't like his gaming friends.  He was more than happy to stop gaming if it meant being with her.  We did the online dating thing for a year and a half, she visited me for 8 months in Canada then I moved to Australia for a year.  On the day I was to apply to stay there permanently, she dumped me.  Last I heard one of my ex-friends from my role playing meet that she met while here had flown out to Australia to be with her.  Came back to Canada, found a job doing tech support and started up my old life here again.

On to more specific points:

Alcohol:  It's been my experience that most people I know who drink on a regular basis drink to excess.  One of my best friends quit life to drink most of the time.  Everyone I knew in high school who made fun of me bragged about drinking constantly.  The favorite activity of most people I know who aren't my role playing friends is going to the bar once or twice a week and getting drunk.  I also have a rather large fear of not acting like myself.  I've seen people act in ways that they have to apologize for afterwards and would NEVER do while sober.  I don't want to drink and then find out the next day that it lowered my inhibitions to the point where I actually admited to my GM who is engaged that if she wasn't, I date her in a second.  I don't want to accidently tell my best friend that sometimes he irritates the crap out of me and I wish he wasn't around all the time.  Those are things I think, but I keep under control and alchohol could bring them out.  I like being in control.

Clothes:  Really, I just wear what I have in my closet.  I've rarely, if ever, actually bought clothes on my own.  I just don't care enough to go shopping for them.  So, nearly everything I have is a gift.  Therefore, almost all of it are shirts with slogans people thought I would like.  I'm not opposed to shopping for new clothes and have in fact thought many times that I really should get some.  Even bought a bunch while I lived in Australia to look better for the job I had there.  However, my mom does the laundry in the house, and all my clothes seem to go missing.  So, I do need to buy more, I just have to be awake during the day to do so.

Also, partially the point of wearing those clothes IS to show who I am.  I find that if I'm wearing a Star Wars shirt, people who like Star Wars come up to me and talk to me.  I like having things in common with people.  When I look through a crowd of people, I'm prone to ignoring the well dressed, preppy people and finding those people who look like they are kindred spirits to talk to.  If I was looking for a woman in a crowd I'd skip over the one in the dress for the one wearing the T-shirt that says "you know you're a gamer when..." like our female DM wears..*grin*

Books and reading:  No, I am not too stressed out from the rest of my life.  I just don't have time.  I have a stack of books that are fantasy related that I really WANT to read that is about 6 or so long along with a couple D&D books that I've bought and haven't read.  So, to add books that I'm not even sure I'll like to the list would mean that they wouldn't get read for months or years.  Only so much time and I'd prefer to spend it with things I like.



			
				Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> "Getting a girl" probably requires first and foremost that "getting a girl" isn't first and foremost on your list of things to do. Once it isn't, you'll be more natural, be more confident, and be more concerned with people for who they are, rather than what they can do for you.



I know, I've been given this advice before.  I've tried to find a way to follow it for years now.  However, it never seems to work out.  The only time I've ever felt relaxed enough around a woman to just think of them the same way I do a guy is when I was dating my first gf.  There was no expectation from women, so they were the same as anyone else.  Other than that, every girl I've ever met has either dated me or it has become awkward and we stopped being friends after they realized I liked them more than they liked me.  I'm not sure I'm capable of being friends with women.  I don't mean to be deperate, but it always comes through anyways

As for my comments about it likely not going anywhere with the woman I just met.  Well, I don't like to get my hopes up, and since I find that when I meet a woman that I have ANY interest in whatsoever my brain works overtime without me being able to stop it.  Within a day or two it has planned out everything I could possibly say to her to get her to go out with me, it has considered hundreds of possible outcomes even if she said yes to a date and wondered if all the time and effort spend on the rather frustrating game of dating would be worth the outcome.  Sometimes these thoughts happen within second of meeting a woman for the first time.  I've taken to telling myself that it'll never work and it isn't worth trying in an effort to make it look like it IS a bit disheartening.


A couple general things.  My posts focused heavily on the parts of me I wanted to draw attention to.  However, I DO talk to people about non-geeky things.  I HAVE sat around in the bar with friends talking about things before and even enjoyed some portions of it.  I spent 5 years in Youth Parliament arguing politics and really enjoyed it.  I'm not as one sided as my post may have made me sound.  I AM very geeky.  I'm proud of that, as well.  But I don't use it as a shield as some people have suggested.  It is just who I am.  I would no more try to convince everyone on the list to stop drinking than I would try to deny that I really enjoy gaming and computers.  Life is too short trying to spend it trying to be someone you aren't.  I'm willing to try anything to see if I like it (ok, most things) but I'm not going to pretend to like something that I already know I don't.  I wouldn't want anyone pretending to like what I do.  If they don't like what I do, I'd like them to tell me so I know not to bore them talking about it.  I like to concentrate on what I have in common with people rather than what I don't.


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## Andor (Apr 20, 2005)

iwatt said:
			
		

> Maybe you have something here. Is the belief that high school is "the most important time of your life" prevalent in american society? I can tell you straight up that in South America it isn't.  Down here the most important part of your life is when you form a family. And people do look askance at those who don't/haven't formed one yet. I'm 27 and not even trying   , but a lot of the mainstream thinks I should start thinking about it.




You hit the nail on the head here. A major part of american mythology is (or at least was when I was growing up) the idea that High School is 'the Best Years of your Life." I personally think this is one of the cruelest lies in our society. Possibly it's a holdover from the old days when leaving school meant you got to spend the rest of your life on a farm doing backbreaking labor, or working on a basically deadend job?



			
				Majoru Oakheart said:
			
		

> I didn't expect to go this far into my personality, but since we're here:




Hmm.. You seem to have a lot of things you want to do, or know you need to do, but can't find the time. Please understand that I'm observing from a distance (and through a distorting medium) but have you considered that you might have depression and/or ADD? You might want to find a source of professional help. If you do have emotional problems it is NOT something you can will power through. I recently spent a year unemployed and sitting on my couch trying to work up the willpower to search for work. Eventually I realized it wasn't going to work and sought help. It took a couple of weeks to find the right mix of medication (as it turns out I had ADD as well as depression and they interact oddly) but once we did, I has a job 2 days later. 

Oh, and as a side note, running for 30 min three times a week is as effective as medication for social anxiety, it just takes longer to kick in (8 weeks vs 2 weeks.) So if you can will yourself to exercise you might find it help in other areas as well.


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## I'm A Banana (Apr 20, 2005)

> Everything else you say Midget, is right on the money. But I really don't believe Sin City is a good first date movie. Maybe it's an okay date movie once you've established mutual interests and tastes but some women today, even geeks, might find this movie's violence, sexism and racism a little much. (Not to say that I didn't enjoy the movie myself...) Anyway, I think there are probably better first date movies out there.




It's definately not a safe choice, but I like to let the girls no right away that I'm never entirely safe.    

As for the rest of this, remember, man, this is Tuff Luv. Don't take it too personally, just try to take away from it what you can in the way of construction.



> See, in a way, it is your problem if you didn't want me around....I do care what other people think. A LOT actually.




These are contradictory positions. It's not THEIR problem if they don't want you around. They're not suffering at all for it. They don't give a loaf. It's YOUR problem if they don't want you around. Because you genuinely care about what other people think about you (like most people). 

There's millions of people in this world. There aren't many who are willing to jump through the hoops you set up just to get to know what you are at the core. The advice here is to make you set up less hoops. So you can be concerned with them, rather than demanding that they be concerned with you.



> I can barely stand being in the same room with them. I have an allergy to smoke as well. However, my best friend smokes. I don't like it, but I put up with it because I like him and I don't think the smell that is around him nearly constantly is enough to lose a friend over or prevent me from gaining a new one.




Go here and read down. There is the presentation of Geek Social Fallacies. You will be enlightened. I wish I had the original link, but this'll have to do.



> I'm instead looking to find the group of people who agree with me and spend time around them to make me feel better about myself. That's sort of my opinion on why I dress the way I do. I feel that I'd like to know the people who think that it's great that I wear what I do.




.....you make people jump through hoops to get to know you, but the moment you have a middling difference with someone else, you denounce them as incompatible. This is self-centered, and one of the cruxes of your problem. It doesn't deny your self to be frickin' considerate, man. You're not cheapening your own being by paying attention to the boring garbage that other people talk about. You're inviting them in to knowing you.

I'm not even suggesting that you change your bathing habits or cleaning habits on a regular basis. Some guys are slobs (I live with a man who NEVER does the dishes. EVER.  I hate him.  ). But when you refuse to be considerate to other human beings, why should they be interested in who you are? You're an inconsiderate, selfish little twick, why should they get to know you? You criticize them, secretly hate them, predict they are dicks, and then prejudge them in exactly the same way you wish they wouldn't prejudge you.

So I would recommend not being incosiderate and selfish. So you want people who won't judge you for what you smell like? Good on you! But you need to put the ball in YOUR court, not in theirs. Don't let them judge you -- let yourself have the power to judge them. Then, if you don't want to hang out with those people, you can assert yourself, rather than just letting them walk over you. You can tell them: "I don't want to be around you when you smell like Joe Camel's poochute. So I'd like it if you'd frickin' STOP, dude. Just out of common courtesey."

Stop telling us we don't understand who you are. Screw who you are. It's not special, it's not significant, it's not worth knowing any more than anyone else is. I could get to know you, or I could get to know that guy who cares enough about how he looks to wear something that looks good on him. We don't care who you are. All we want to do is try to help a guy who asked for it. Who you really are doesn't matter.

(Again, remember, this is tuff luv. Don't take it personally, but take away from it what you can.)



> I LIKE wearing it, so although some people might think it's stupid, or unkept or anti-social, I think of it as a shirt with someone I like written on it. It's much better for my self esteem to be around a person who says "Cool shirt" instead of "Can't you dress in some real clothes?" Plus, doesn't do much for my self esteem to be continually putting on clothes that I don't like just so other people will tolerate me. Feels like I'm pretending. I do enough role playing DURING the game.




You know what I do when I submit an application for employment or school? I pretend. I present them with a face they want to see, rather than every aspect of who I am. 

Society is built on a foundation of falsehoods and wrong assumptions. Most human beings just don't give a flying intercourse about their fellow human being beyond a few theoretical generalities. You're no exception: you judge drunks unworthy of your attention. You might not want them to curl up and die (or maybe you do?), but you don't want to have anything to do with them. Most people are going to judge people who feel the need to wear their hobby on their sleeve as unworthy of their attention. You confuse and bewilder people, and people don't like being confused and bewildered. Just like you're uncomfortable around drunks, people are uncomfortable around ill-fitting Star Wars tees. This isn't a test to separate the people worth knowing from the people not -- EVERY human being is worth knowing. Stop lying to yourself. All this is doing is isolating you from some people you may be interested in knowing DESPITE their flaws.

Self-esteem? Sounds a lot like you're pretty frickin' proud of yourself, all high and mighty on your throne of dice, judging everyone who passes beneath your feet, telling them that they have to come to you.

Get down off of your high horse and have some humility. Put on something preppy for someone else's sake.

Why would that feel like you're pretending? You don't need to wear your hobby on your sleeve. You don't need to shove what you like in everyone else's face and declare that if they don't like it then they're unworthy of your time and attention. If you want to know people, you have to accept them for what they are and stop demanding that they treat you special.



> Also, partially the point of wearing those clothes IS to show who I am.




BZZZZZZZZZZZZZT! Wrong-o, bucky! The *entire* point of wearing clothes is so we don't have to look at your dangly bits. Your self identity is NOT related to your clothing, it is related to who you are on the inside. It's not like some magical belt of fashion-bending that when you put it on you will instantly turn into a new person. It what you do for the sake of other people.

You show who you are by words, actions, interests, opinions. The only thing your clothes signify is your ability to not make other people look at your dangly bits. 



> When I look through a crowd of people, I'm prone to ignoring the well dressed, preppy people and finding those people who look like they are kindred spirits to talk to.




Then why oh why oh WHY are you offended when someone else does the same to you and your clothing? Why are you offended by the shallowness of others when you are so very shallow yourself? How is what you do ANY different from some superficial wench only talking to the guys who wear Ambercrombie. You've faught these monsters for so long that you've effing become them. You're the same thing, with different standards. 

So you can either be confident in your selfish egotism, or you can open up a little bit and be a human being for Gygax's sake! Do things for other people!



> I know, I've been given this advice before. I've tried to find a way to follow it for years now. However, it never seems to work out.




There's a trick to it. It's called not being self-centered.



> Well, I don't like to get my hopes up, and since I find that when I meet a woman that I have ANY interest in whatsoever my brain works overtime without me being able to stop it. Within a day or two it has planned out everything I could possibly say to her to get her to go out with me, it has considered hundreds of possible outcomes even if she said yes to a date and wondered if all the time and effort spend on the rather frustrating game of dating would be worth the outcome. Sometimes these thoughts happen within second of meeting a woman for the first time. I've taken to telling myself that it'll never work and it isn't worth trying in an effort to make it look like it IS a bit disheartening.




Congrats, you judgemental bimbo!   

Stop thinking that much. Head your brain off at the pass.

Do or do not. There is no try. You have time and time again chosen "do not." Simply because, what, you're affraid of rejection? Please. Let her decide if your worth her time, don't put words in her mouth. Don't presume to think that you know who she is because you know some broad stereotype about her. Because she's one way, don't think that defines her. 



> Life is too short trying to spend it trying to be someone you aren't. I'm willing to try anything to see if I like it (ok, most things) but I'm not going to pretend to like something that I already know I don't. I wouldn't want anyone pretending to like what I do. If they don't like what I do, I'd like them to tell me so I know not to bore them talking about it. I like to concentrate on what I have in common with people rather than what I don't.




Look, I'm gonna throw something at your head, open your mind and try to make it stick:

Whatever you are, you are. You can't be someone you're not. It's a _LOGICAL IMPOSSI-FRICKING-BILITY_. Even if you were to dress in a clown suit and unicycle down main street, you would still be you and what you are. You can't help it. You are. So do whatever  you actually want to do. If that means alienating people by judging them superficially and selfishly refusing to accomodate them and their difference, fine, be proud of it. But if you want to make more friends (and ladyfriends), it means not being a selfish, superficial twick. It means bowing to some of the whims of the masses. 

Don't take PRIDE in being a geek. That's a label. That's a stereotype. That's a generalization. You're not a stereptye. You're not a label. You're not a generealization. Don't accuse others of being stereotypes, either. 

You have a lot more in common with the concieted cheerleader than you want to admit. You are the polar opposite. Just as bad, to another extreme.


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## Gothmog (Apr 20, 2005)

Majoru, I can understand where you are coming from.  I am 6'2", and from the time I was 12 until I was 26, I was always very heavy- to the point of being 320 lbs at my heaviest.  I have pale skin (due to genetics), a beard, and long hair which I usually wore in a ponytail.  I took showers every day (thats just a common courtesy to people, whether you like them or not), but I was socially inept, liked geeky things, and spent almost all of my free time on gaming or geeky pursuits.  To top it off, I was working on my PhD in Neuroscience, which is basically a field full of geeks (but interesting geeks).  Around the time I was 26, my knees and back started bothering me due to the excess weight, and I decided to lose weight for myself so I wouldn't feel like crap when I was older and I'd have a longer, happier, healther life.

So I started walking then jogging 4 miles a day, watching what I ate, and being more active.  I had a lot more energy, and within 10 months, I had dropped down to 190 lbs (which for me is skin and bones).  I started doing intensive weight training, and within 3 years, I had worked my way back up to 250 lbs of muscle.  It takes a lot of effort, and yeah, I didn't spend as much time gaming.  But looking back, I think I was crazy for not doing this sooner.  I feel SO MUCH better now, physically, emotionally, and socially, and I have much more confidence.  I'm just as much "me" now as I was before I changed my life, but life is better now.  From personal experience, women don't like fat, geeky, and especially unconfident guys- and that last one will drive them away from you screaming, especially if you act needy.  Also, cultivate more varied interests- I took up golf, weightlifting, hiking, concerts, etc- it makes you a more interesting person and gives you more common ground and ability to relate to people.

Now, I'm enjoying life and everything I've accomplished, and I'm really looking forward to the future.  I've got my PhD, I am a professor at one of the top 20 private colleges in the country, in the best shape of my life (my students call me "Conan" or say I look like Triple H now), I'm more confident, have a better mental outlook, and still find time to play games several times a month (not every week like before since real life has intruded and friends have moved away for jobs).  I'm not married and don't have a girlfriend right now, but thats more because I'm not looking for one right now while I get my career established and life set up.  I've noticed a big difference in how women treat me too- random women will stop and start talking to me, and women in my classes or that I know at school hang around my office just to chat.  And I'm up front and honest about my geeky habits (gaming, computer games, minis painting, etc), and if doesn't bother you to talk about it, I've found most women will say "hmm, sounds kinda interesting- can you show me sometime?".  I can really understand where you are coming from, and why you feel that way, but you're the one with the responsibility and ability to improve your life- its not owed to you, and nobody else has an obligation to make sure you're happy other than YOU.

And listen to Teflon Billy- he has great wisdom, even if he can be "overzealous" at times.  He's kinda like Bhudda with a baseball bat.


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## HeavyG (Apr 20, 2005)

Majoru Oakheart said:
			
		

> Well, I don't believe that being overweight is "me" per se.  What I was saying is that spending most of my time exercising and trying to remain slim, I wouldn't be me anymore.




Most of your time ? You don't have to go all health-ninja, turn vegan and start biking to work, yo. Every little bit helps.

And personally, I'd say that the point of working out is not to "become slim". Really, "becoming a little less overweight" is already very very good. But the main reason is that being really out of shape sucks, big time. Sure, in your early 20s, you can get by on sheer youth, but at some point, your lack of any physical activity at all is going to catch up to you. 

If you're as unwise as me (and it sounds like you are, no offense), then you'll ignore all this. And at some point, maybe at 30 or 35, some part of you will give out and you will rue the lack of exercises. And then, instead of having to go to the gym for a few hours a week, you will need physical therapy to keep you from being in constant pain every instant due to a bad back that doesn't have enough muscle mass to support your weight. At that point, going to the gym 2-3 hours a week will not seem like a big deal compared to 45 minutes of exercises you have to do every day (plus visits to the PT).

Also, being able to climb 2 flights of stairs without getting winded is great !

Anyway, what I'm saying is that I've been there and I think you're making a mistake you'll pay dearly for later. Feel free to ignore it - I would have. 




			
				Majoru Oakheart said:
			
		

> But also, that extra hour of Knights of the Old Republic is a lot more fun than the hour of exercise.  Also, depending on what type of exercise I'm doing, I have to go somewhere to have that exercise.  That meanst 30 minutes there, 30 minutes back.   So, I've now wasted one hour of my time travelling in order to spend 1 hour doing something that I don't like doing so OTHER people can like what they see in me.  I hate wasting time and try to optimize the use of it.




It doesn't have to be wasted time. If you take the bus there, you can read RPG books as you go. Also, you could read, watch tv, listen to music OR ALL THREE !!!! while you're pedaling on the aerobics bike.   

Personally, I was surprised as to how quickly an hour of exercise passes.




			
				maddman75 said:
			
		

> Neither is hocky.  How can you have a sport without a ball?  All hockey has is a puck.  The only other place I've every heard of a puck is the little air freshner they drop in urinals.  Something that involves batting around a bathroom freshner is not a sport.
> 
> *_quacks*_




Unlike, say, american Football, the balls are attached to the _players_.   

*_pheasants_*


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## I'm A Banana (Apr 20, 2005)

> But the main reason is that being really out of shape sucks, big time. Sure, in your early 20s, you can get by on sheer youth, but at some point, your lack of any physical activity at all is going to catch up to you.




Believe it or not, physical activity has a lot more than just physical effects on your body. Your mind works better when your body is healthy. Every part of you loves to be active, you just have to get it over that first hump.


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## HeavyG (Apr 20, 2005)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> Believe it or not, physical activity has a lot more than just physical effects on your body. Your mind works better when your body is healthy. Every part of you loves to be active, you just have to get it over that first hump.




Yeah. Really, I get many great ideas for games while I'm working off. 

Oh, and when you have more muscle mass, you expend more energy just walking around normally, breathing in and out and so on. So it's like you're working out_ all day long_, baby !



			
				Gothmog said:
			
		

> And listen to Teflon Billy- he has great wisdom, even if he can be "overzealous" at times.  He's kinda like Bhudda with a baseball bat.




That is one Buddha that, if you see him walking down the street, _don't punch him _ !


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## I'm A Banana (Apr 20, 2005)

> Yeah. Really, I get many great ideas for games while I'm working off.




   

OOOOOOOOOOOOH....*working* off.....nevermind.


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## Majoru Oakheart (Apr 20, 2005)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> These are contradictory positions. It's not THEIR problem if they don't want you around. They're not suffering at all for it. They don't give a loaf. It's YOUR problem if they don't want you around. Because you genuinely care about what other people think about you (like most people).



I care, but not enough that it'll bother me for longer than a minute or two.  And it would ONLY bother me if confronted with it directly, i.e. when someone said "I'd prefer you left, we don't like you.".  Otherwise, it doesn't affect me anymore than it did them.  I wasn't friends with them before, I'm not after, same difference.

As for most of the rest.  You see, I'm perfectly aware that most of the world works in fallacies.  I know that the vast majority of people sit around listening to people go on about things they have no interest in just so that those people will listen to them when they discuss things that their "friends" have no interest in.

This is the part that always seemed the most confusing to me.  Why bother pretending to like someone so they can pretend to like you when you could find people you really DID find interesting and who really did find YOU interesting.  Instead of pretending, go for the truth.  Yes, this means the number of people you can be friends with is a LOT smaller.  However, it means you actually know you have friends instead of a bunch of people who are pretending to like you to feel better about themselves.

I'm aware that people put on clothes so that other people will like them regardless of their own opinion of their clothing.  I'm aware that I suffer from GSF3 and 5 big time.  But to me calling them fallacies is like saying "true love doesn't exist".  You might get a lot of people believing you, but a lot of people will disagree.

I think there ARE people who agree with me on this issue.  It obviously isn't you guys.  Contrary to what you guys think, I don't really don't walk around saying "you mean, you drink?  I'm not talking to you."  I try to find what I have in common with someone and find reasons why we can get along and become friends.  However, I refuse to PRETEND to like drinking when I don't.  I refuse to start drinking just to fit in.  I really do like all you guys.  I think it's cool you do what you do.

On the other hand, since this appears to be the first year I'm going to Gencon, I should watch my back.  *grin*


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## MonsterMash (Apr 20, 2005)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> NASCAR isn't a sport
> 
> *_ducks_*



I thought discussing religions was banned.


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## Imperialus (Apr 20, 2005)

Get a dog, walk it 15 minutes two times a day.  Once a week take it down to an off leash area and spend an hour throwing a ball or playing chase.  Helluva lot more fun than an hour of KoTR.


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## Empress (Apr 20, 2005)

Look, Majoru, I'm not going to repeat myself (or Kamakaze Midget for that matter).

It seems clear to me that you are too deeply rooted in your laziness to change something. It's going to bite you in the ass one day. You're actually unhappy with your situation but can't get over yourself to make a change. This worsens your situation which in turns means you'll have a longer way to go, so it's even harder to make the first step... and so on.

The fact is, nothing we say will help you in any way, because you already know all this. YOU have to make the effort - and yes, it's an effort - to do this.

I've got you pegged down pretty well, I believe, and as I said, I was there myself. I got out of it. And you know what? The hardest part wasn't exercising regularly (that even got fun after a while!), it wasn't changing my diet (though I had to impose a ban on chocolate ice cream even for my friends), it wasn't even going to a health club and be looked at as the "fat girl" (or "the one who wants to lose weight instead of building up muscles"). The hardest part was getting over my own laziness and just do it.

But I am a gamer. I am competitive. So I started small, giving me the chance to stop any time I wanted to. And I noticed that I'd stay on the cycle just a few minutes more, just to show myself I wasn't a sissy. And after the first week, I was looking forward to execrising. At the same time, I knew I'd have to follow my plan regularly (every second day) or the laziness would get a hold on me again. 

I came through. And now more than ever, I can be who I am because I don't have to hide my own unhappiness and insecurity.


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## Majoru Oakheart (Apr 20, 2005)

Empress said:
			
		

> Look, Majoru, I'm not going to repeat myself (or Kamakaze Midget for that matter).
> 
> It seems clear to me that you are too deeply rooted in your laziness to change something. It's going to bite you in the ass one day. You're actually unhappy with your situation but can't get over yourself to make a change. This worsens your situation which in turns means you'll have a longer way to go, so it's even harder to make the first step... and so on.



I'm not really all that unhappy.  I'm a bit complacent.  Sometimes the fact that almost nothing has changed in my life for the good in a couple of years gets to me, and I do believe that change is on the horizon for me.  Whether it happens to me by accident or I force the change has yet to be seen, but do not believe you have not motivated me, you have.

I'm not as overweight or in dire need of change, IMHO as everyone on the board believes I am from my post.  I agree with what you say, and plan on making changes of some type for sure.  I think you overexaggerate slightly.  But, thank you for replying.  I really do appreciate your comments.

I have friends who I care about and game with regularly.  I had a lot of fun joking around with my coworkers last night.  Talked to the woman again, if only briefly since there was too much work to do.  I am already planning going out for coffee with my best friend on Thursday and hope to get some reading done today.  Looking forward to playing my new character in the Friday D&D game, a Wood Elf Barbarian/Druid.  Have some prep work to do for my Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil game on Saturday.

I did not mean to insinuate that my life was bad in my posts.  It isn't.  I like it.  I love my friends, my hobbies.  I tolerate my job and I'm currently looking for a better one.  I'd like to meet a woman, but not having one has not put me into depression or anything.

I may be lazy, but I'm not dead.  Nor will I be anytime soon.  I shouldn't have even started this thread, I wasn't feeling great that day.  Everyone in this thread has made it sound like I am horribly different than all of you.  I'm not.  But as long as everyone has the opinion that I'm too full of myself, I doubt they'll ever find that out.

I love you guys, even if I mostly lurk here, I know some of you pretty decently from your posts.  Thanks for your input.  I've appreciated all of it, even if a lot of it was excessively mean, but I think I invited that.


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## fusangite (Apr 20, 2005)

Majoru Oakheart said:
			
		

> First, for those who care, I showered right before posting this.



Woo hoo!  


> fusangite: I keep having plans to go on Atkins.



It's a piece of cake -- your food budget doubles or triples though. The big thing you have to prepare for is to have low-carb SNACK items around the house and with you at work during the first few weeks when you're going through carb withdrawal. So, buy lots of cheese, pork rinds, pepperoni, other smoked meats and keep them around. Another thing they don't tell you in the diet book that can be quite useful: avocadoes are insulin blockers so in terms of carbs, they not only essentially partly neutralize their own but also the carbs from other foods. So, a few avocadoes a week really helps both in terms of carbs and vitamic C. Another thing that was useful for me: frozen drink crystals -- always have them around in case you run out of diet pop. 

After the first two weeks, you won't really have the food cravings and all this stuff won't really be necessary but for the first 14 days, the drink crystals and smoked meats can really make a key difference.







> I agree with some of what you say, but I think you have me slightly wrong.



Well, I hope I have erred in ways that speak well rather than ill of you.







> I agree with your methods and I appreciate what you are trying to do.



Well, that's a dangerous thing to say. Looks like I'll have to respond to the next round of posts then:







> Also, my place is a mess.  Yes, because I'm too lazy to clean most of the time.  My friends haven't stopped coming over because of it and new people who come normally accept an apology on the appearance of the place.  I find that most people aren't extremely concerned if I haven't cleaned up in the last week.  I guess we hang out with different people, but I haven't found it to be an issue.



Have you checked out the geek social fallacies page someone here linked to? I bet this is one of the reasons they linked to it. I game every week at a home where the GM and his brother, I am pretty sure, have not cleaned the bathroom more than once since I joined the game 8 months ago. They may never have cleaned it. I am revolted and disgusted every week. But I haven't said a thing -- but I'm quite sure that if they recruited a female player and she was subjected to sitting down on that toilet seat a few times a month, the facilities could make the difference between her going or staying. 

The fact that people, especially geeks, don't complain about something should in no way be interpreted as assent or indifference. It can and should be interpreted as a combination of cowardice, laziness and politeness. Most people, not just geeks, absolutely hate confrontation. What separates more mainstream people from geeks is not not that they are more or less likely to express dissatisfaction with something that's gross or unpleasant; it's that they are more likely to move on rather than stay and suffer.







> I like to feel that I'm doing the "right" thing.  But often, I'm not actually looking for it to be the popular thing or even have the majority agree with me.



This seems like a good place to stop and address another fallacy. I know the thrill, as a kid, of suddenly realizing that just because a lot of people share an opinion, it is nevertheless wrong. But many people in our subculture seem to take the wrong lesson from that. Just because the correctness of an opinion does not vary directly with the number of people who share it, it does not follow that there is an inverse relationship either. There is no meaningful relationship at all; many geeks seem to assume a negative correlation coefficient because it has been demonstrated to them that there is not a positive one. But the fact is that the correlation coefficient of an opinion's correctness and the number of people who share it is, for all practical purposes, zero. 

If you credit that the other human beings are not that smart, and you seem big on that rather arrogant view, then why should their opinions be a useful input in predicting the objective truth of a position about which they have an opinion?







> I'm instead looking to find the group of people who agree with me and spend time around them to make me feel better about myself.



Wow! I feel like I'm doing one of those "thick readings" they talk about in high level English courses on discourse analysis. 

Okay, so falsehood #1: Popular opinion vs. correct opinion.

Falsehood #2: Feeling good=being agreed with
I like hanging out with people who agree with me too. But even when I'm with people with 90% of whose opinions I agree, we often spend our time discussing the things about which we don't agree. Because that's fun, that's exciting. That's when I'm challenged and I learn. Some of my friends are people against whom I work politically every election. Some of my friends are people who don't like RPGs. Some of my friends don't know anything about religion or politics. 

So I don't look for friends on the basis on whether they agree with me; I look for them on the basis of whether being with them enriches my life, be that through argument, RPGs, food, shared values or whatever. There are lots of ways to feel affirmed in an interpersonal dynamic. Being agreed with is just one. 

Falsehood #3: Happiness in my tribe vs. happiness in the mainstream
I agree that it's important to put together a social group where you can be in you comfort zone and feel good. That's basically the lynchpin of my entire social strategy in life. But the second most important part of my social strategy is to cultivate the ability to still feel pretty good hanging out with the members of the other tribes. That's because your ability to feel good around your crowd and your ability to feel good around the other human beings are, again, independent variables that do not really correlate to one another. 

You don't need to sacrifice feeling good amongst people you wouldn't normally hang out with in order to feel good around your best friend; if you can do both, your life is better. It's like I was saying earlier: the more things you learn to enjoy, the more of life you'll enjoy. Cultivating the capacity to enjoy something (ie. acquiring a taste) makes one's life better. Wouldn't it be amazing if you could spend time with nearly anyone and come away feeling better about yourself?







> I feel that I'd like to know the people who think that it's great that I wear what I do.  I LIKE wearing it, so although some people might think it's stupid, or unkept or anti-social, I think of it as a shirt with someone I like written on it.



And you don't have to stop liking those shirts. But wouldn't it be cool if you learned to like other shirts as well? That's what happened with me. I used to just like one kind of insanely geeky attention-seeking outfit. It's not that I stopped enjoying wearing that outfit; it's that I began enjoying various other outfits.







> It's much better for my self esteem to be around a person who says "Cool shirt" instead of "Can't you dress in some real clothes?"



But almost nobody says "can't you dress in some real clothes" to you unless they really care about you and worry about the impression you're making on all the people who, quite frankly, couldn't be bothered telling you that your outfit makes you look like a slob and just write you off without a word. 

Why not acquire more tastes in clothing so that there is a wider range of outfits you can enjoy wearing? Who loses if you do that? You sure don't because you get to enjoy the experience of looking in the mirror more than you currently do.







> Plus, doesn't do much for my self esteem to be continually putting on clothes that I don't like just so other people will tolerate me.



It's really a shame that the experience of being clothed sucks for you unless there are words on your chest. I would suggest that if this is the case, you need to branch out in clothing for no other reason than your own mental health. It goes back to what I've been saying in previous e-mails; when you say that feeling good about what you are wearing is contingent on essentially _wearing a sign_, that's a sign that you are superficial, appearance-focused and attention seeking -- the accusations you seem to be leveling at the rest of the world much of the time. 

(I have another theory about why the slogans that I'll elaborate if we go to another iteration of this.)







> Feels like I'm pretending.



From my years in politics, you know what the biggest lesson I learned was? People are lousy liars. Even politicians who make a living off lying are just rotten at it. The reason we're rotten liars is that it's so much easier not to pretend; so, usually the first people we convince of a lie are ourselves. We start out pretending and it soon turns out that the thing you were pretending to enjoy, you actually are enjoying. As a result, I'm a big fan of pretending. When I was younger I pretended to like a lot of weird foods; and it really paid off because now I actually like those foods. 

Now, as to your "short history lesson:"

Compared to me and a number of my friends, you actually sound quite successful with women. Now that I know a bit more of your history, I'm really going to chime in with everyone else and say that the girlfriend situation is not your problem. Making girls like you: piece of cake. The improvement you need to effect in your quality of life is to make you like you.







> Alcohol:  It's been my experience that most people I know who drink on a regular basis drink to excess.



Yep. That's how people deal with alcohol in their early 20s. Good news: maturity and aging livers will put an end to that in not too long. Then you'll find that there isn't the weird belligerent cultural around alcohol that you're finding now. Trust me: social groups that are not centred around people in their early-mid twenties are going to have healthier, saner attitudes towards alcohol and will use it in ways you will likely find much more socially constructive. Plus, they will start making drinks that taste better.







> One of my best friends quit life to drink most of the time.  Everyone I knew in high school who made fun of me bragged about drinking constantly.  The favorite activity of most people I know who aren't my role playing friends is going to the bar once or twice a week and getting drunk.



Well, don't convict alcohol by association there. That's more information about people in their early 20s than it is information about alcohol.







> I also have a rather large fear of not acting like myself.



You seem to think that your identity is something you will lose if you don't wear a label and cling to it for dear life. Trust me: it will be there regardless.







> I've seen people act in ways that they have to apologize for afterwards and would NEVER do while sober.  I don't want to drink and then find out the next day that it lowered my inhibitions to the point where I actually admited to my GM who is engaged that if she wasn't, I date her in a second.  I don't want to accidently tell my best friend that sometimes he irritates the crap out of me and I wish he wasn't around all the time.  Those are things I think, but I keep under control and alchohol could bring them out.



You control 100% how much alcohol you consume; there is no reason that by virtue of having a sip of wine you have to get drunk. 

I hate to tell you this but your dopamine, serotonin and blood sugar levels are fluctuating all over the place all the time. (Especially if you're overweight and have a high-carb diet.) Your IQ is moving up and down, your levels of happiness, anxiety, etc.; you aren't "in control" now. Your brain is switching states, causing irrational anxiety, disinhibition, despair, episodes of stupidity all the time. But you manage that. Alcohol is no different; if you can teach yourself to manage the psychoactive effects of a bag of popcorn, a pint of coke and a box of milk duds, you should be able to train yourself pretty easily to manage the effects of a glass of wine so you get its beneficial effects without any radical disinhibition or collapse. 

Just as alcohol's effects are sometimes to cause people to do things they wished they didn't do when sober, alcohol can also be used to help people do things they wished they could to when sober. Sometimes a strategic glass of wine can give one the courage to ask someone for a date or a job interview; you don't have to relinquish control to alcohol in order to use it as a tool to extend your will, to carry out a decision you have already made.







> I like being in control.



I disagree. You like feeling secure. ANd the only way you know of feeling secure is having control. There are other ways of feeling secure and, as you discover them, control will become less important. 

But you're not really in control anyway. I bet there are all kinds of things you can't do when you're "in control" even though you would really like to. Don't mistake your fear and inhibitions for your desires. There are probably various things you would choose to do if you really were "in control" but don't because you're afraid or inhibited.







> Really, I just wear what I have in my closet.  I've rarely, if ever, actually bought clothes on my own.  I just don't care enough to go shopping for them.  So, nearly everything I have is a gift.



Was I in a time machine that got stranded in Winnipeg? I could have sworn I wrote this sentence myself 10 years ago. Well, I hate clothes shopping too. So, if I may, I'd like to make a non-labour intensive recommendation for taking control of your appearance (one would think that a guy who liked to be "in control" would want to choose his own clothes). 

Go to a tailor; surprisingly, tailors are pretty cheap. Sit down with the guy and pick out a design for a shirt that you like, have him take your measurements and order a bunch. There are a number of advantages here: (a) the clothes are shaped for _your_ body (b) when you need a new shirt, you can just make a phone call and then go pick it up when it's done (c) you get to design your own shirt so that you can develop something that truly reflects the unique you with no need for slogans, (d) you end up with shirts that are suitable for both formal occasions and everyday wear. Now, it's true that my shirts cost me $50 each but in the case of formal shirts, that's close to what I'd be paying in a department store anyway.

I feel for you. I absolutely loathe clothes shopping with a passion but I found a way around that loathing. If you deploy that intellect of yours on these superficial, mundane problems, many of them will vanish.







> Therefore, almost all of it are shirts with slogans people thought I would like.  I'm not opposed to shopping for new clothes and have in fact thought many times that I really should get some.  Even bought a bunch while I lived in Australia to look better for the job I had there.  However, my mom does the laundry in the house, and all my clothes seem to go missing.  So, I do need to buy more, I just have to be awake during the day to do so.



Sounds like a lot of what's going on with you is grief and despair over your latest breakup. It seems like you were more together economically, socially, etc. and then the rug was pulled out from under you. Don't mistake your current feelings of grief for the real or essential you. You probably have a bunch of negative thoughts and feelings hanging over from your time in Australia that you need to recognize as such rather than incorporating them into a new, more negative self image.

And for God's sake, *TAKE CONTROL OF YOUR LAUNDRY*! I don't care how but do so immediately. If you can't afford to move out, at least, do your own laundry and cooking.







> Also, partially the point of wearing those clothes IS to show who I am.  I find that if I'm wearing a Star Wars shirt, people who like Star Wars come up to me and talk to me.



You know, rather more sophisticated strategies have been used quite effectively to find people efficiently with whom to discuss Star Wars. 

And I have to confess something here: If I were at a party and I genuinely wanted to discuss Star Wars, I would start remarking to _other people_ about your tshirt. I would say things like, "I remember thinking Star Wars was the greatest movie of all time but..." That's because liking Star Wars wouldn't be the only signal you would send me with that tshirt: the shirt would also tell me that you would probably be socially awkward and detail-focused, that if I started talking to you, I might not be able to get away, that you might have some kind of humourless devotion to the series, etc. But your t-shirt would be a great prop for me to use, unbeknownst to you, to find people more likely to be fun to talk to about Star Wars.







> I like having things in common with people.  When I look through a crowd of people, I'm prone to ignoring the well dressed, preppy people and finding those people who look like they are kindred spirits to talk to.



Now, from reading this thread, how many ENWorlders have told you that despite their obviously high intelligence and deep knowledge of sci-fi and RPGs that they wouldn't be dressed like you, that they might, in fact, be dressed like preppies or punks or goths or construction workers? I make it at least fifteen. So, your system isn't that efficient for finding kindred spirits after all, is it? It causes you to dismiss people who are worthy of your attention and lose opportunities to socialize with many fun, interesting individuals.







> If I was looking for a woman in a crowd I'd skip over the one in the dress for the one wearing the T-shirt that says "you know you're a gamer when..." like our female DM wears..*grin*



ANd she might say, "No... my aunt gave me this t-shirt last year and I've been so depressed I haven't had a chance to replace it."







> No, I am not too stressed out from the rest of my life.  I just don't have time.



Could you sketch out your average week and where the time goes? I'm counting 40 hours for work, 5 hours for commuting, 56 hours for sleeping, 2 hours for showering , 10 hours for eating and 15 hours for gaming so I'm missing about 40 hours or about 5.7 hours per day.







> Other than that, every girl I've ever met has either dated me or it has become awkward and we stopped being friends after they realized I liked them more than they liked me.  I'm not sure I'm capable of being friends with women.  I don't mean to be deperate, but it always comes through anyways



I feel your pain man. This is something with which I still struggle but I've made a lot of progress. So, for what it's worth (almost nothing), here's another example of something I did in my life to address this: start by making friends with women much older than the ones you're attracted to. Once you get comfortable with those women, keep moving younger. Soon, you'll find that you can make friends with women of any age with no weird sexual dynamic or awkwardness even if you're also desperate for a girlfriend.







> Life is too short trying to spend it trying to be someone you aren't.



I guess it all comes down to what you think your essence is; if who you are is a bunch of hobbies and clothes, I'm not sure life's worth living at all. But if your identity is a more profound and rich thing than that, then enriching your life shouldn't be synonymous with being someone you are not.







> I like to concentrate on what I have in common with people rather than what I don't.



That's a shame. The ways that people aren't like you are so much more fascinating than the ways they are. You know this to be fundamentally true with women... don't you vastly prefer the body parts they have and you don't to the ones that you and they both have? Aren't they the most interesting parts? Well, this isn't just true of the opposite sex on a carnal level; it's true of all people on a social and a spiritual level.







> You see, I'm perfectly aware that most of the world works in fallacies.



Wrong. The _entire_ world does. Including you. That's why you're not superior or special. You have a social strategy that results in me, a fellow Star Wars fan, not talking to you about Star Wars  because your social strategy is fallacious. So get off your high horse.







> Why bother pretending to like someone so they can pretend to like you when you could find people you really DID find interesting and who really did find YOU interesting?



Because, paradoxical as it sounds, the ability to feign interest in a social skill you can deploy in a campaign to find people who reall do interest you. Several of my friends have been introduced to me by people I did not find interesting. The more social skills you hone, the more people like you you will find!







> I'm aware that people put on clothes so that other people will like them regardless of their own opinion of their clothing.



Nope. Most people just bother to cultivate more tastes in clothes so they can enjoy dressing in more seasons and styles.


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## Eolin (Apr 20, 2005)

Wow. This thread is becoming amazing. Both in length of thread, and length of individual posts. Oh, and the level of wise concern.

Majoru Oakheart, we've been where you are. Four months ago I was incredibly unhappy and didn't know it. I was unhappy because of how I looked, what chemicals were running through me, etc etc. 

While we don't like to believe this, we are chemical producing animals whose lives are largely run by the chemicals inside of us. If you eat right, do a little bit of exercise, and think positively, then you will feel better. You'll be happier.

Whether it gets you girls or not is very secondary. It makes you like yourself.

Personally, I cannot stand the Atkins diet. If it works for you, more power to ya. What changed my habits was a hippy friend of mine handing me a book on detoxing and another one on yoga. I started eating things from the detoxing book -- particularly lemons -- and everything has changed sense then.

She know I could change, and that I wanted to. I just didn't have the resources. And wasn't going to take the first step, like buying those books. My impetus had to come from outside. Consider this thread to be your outside impetus.

I started walking. Not running, just walking. I've got a 5-mile walking set I do around 3 times a week. Five miles sounds like a long ways on foot, but it becomes second nature. Heck, I enjoy it now. The first time I did that was with a roomate, as I wasn't going to start that without outside impetus either.

I highly recommend doing what everyone on ENworld is saying. We've been at almost exactly where you are, reading your posts is like reading a slightly distorted biography. And I'm sure it is for most everyone here. We're your kin and your tribe, at least give what we're saying a shot. 

I say, take the juice of a lemon everyday for a week (with warm water, half at waking and half at bedtime). I expect you'll feel much different and will want to continue doing it. There's something ridiculously magical about lemons. That's seven lemons, and is less than $5. Surely you can invest five bucks to see if this "health stuff" has some merit?

And if that doesn't work, start walking. And talk to that girl, LARPer girls are sexy.


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## I'm A Banana (Apr 20, 2005)

> I care, but not enough that it'll bother me for longer than a minute or two. And it would ONLY bother me if confronted with it directly, i.e. when someone said "I'd prefer you left, we don't like you.". Otherwise, it doesn't affect me anymore than it did them. I wasn't friends with them before, I'm not after, same difference.




You're lying to yourself again. There is a difference. They rejected you. They declared you not worth their time and effort. They decidied that you were less than them, based solely on your appearance, the *exact* same way you decide that someone who gets stoned is worse than you based solely upon their hobby. 

Wanna pretend that doesn't make you mad at them? Sure, keep up your little fantasy. You're not hurting me, you're only hurting yourself, bucko. It artificially limits the people you may be involved with, which not only stops you from meeting a nice girl, it also makes you a concieted jerk. And being a concieted jerk is gonna stop you from meeting a nice girl a lot more than not showering one day.



> This is the part that always seemed the most confusing to me. Why bother pretending to like someone so they can pretend to like you when you could find people you really DID find interesting and who really did find YOU interesting. Instead of pretending, go for the truth. Yes, this means the number of people you can be friends with is a LOT smaller. However, it means you actually know you have friends instead of a bunch of people who are pretending to like you to feel better about themselves.




Because that pretending shows a selflessness, a generosity, a kindness, and a compassion that most people like to see in others. You're not dressing nice so people will hang out with you -- that's just a side effect. You're dressing nice because other people want you to. It's this novel concept called "not being a selfish twick" that exists out there. By dressing in clothes others want to see you in, you're doing something nice for them. For all of humanity. Just by changing your wardrobe on days you leave the house. Stop seeing it as something you're doing to get friends -- it's not. That's selfish, that's manipulative. You're doing it to be nice. Otherwise, you're a selfish twick who could care less what other people want to see, as long as you're happy with your tees and jeans. 

People don't pretend to like people to feel better about themselves. People pretend to like people out of kindness, courtesey, and generosity. 

You are being far too exclusive and far too narrowminded in how you accept others. You're being a superficial jerk. And by doing things like not caring how someone else is dressed, you show that you, indeed, have compassion, kindness, and consideration for your fellow human.

Of course, if you'd rather not, no one's stopping you from being a jerk. But don't expect to be approved for your lifestyle if you're a jerk.



> I'm not as overweight or in dire need of change, IMHO as everyone on the board believes I am from my post. I agree with what you say, and plan on making changes of some type for sure. I think you overexaggerate slightly. But, thank you for replying. I really do appreciate your comments.




Well, this is a message board. No one cares what you're really like. We just care that we do our obligation to our fellow human and try to stop one superficial, shallow little much from being such a superficial, shallow little munch. But hey, if you're happy, whatever, right? It's your happiness that most matters, isn't it? That's how you're going to carry yourself, whatever makes you happy regardless of what others want.



> I'm aware that people put on clothes so that other people will like them regardless of their own opinion of their clothing. I'm aware that I suffer from GSF3 and 5 big time. But to me calling them fallacies is like saying "true love doesn't exist". You might get a lot of people believing you, but a lot of people will disagree.
> 
> I think there ARE people who agree with me on this issue. It obviously isn't you guys. Contrary to what you guys think, I don't really don't walk around saying "you mean, you drink? I'm not talking to you." I try to find what I have in common with someone and find reasons why we can get along and become friends. However, I refuse to PRETEND to like drinking when I don't. I refuse to start drinking just to fit in. I really do like all you guys. I think it's cool you do what you do.




You don't have to pretend to like drinking, you just have to stop being shallow and realize that drinking isn't all a person is about, even if it's the first thing you see.

Calling hem fallacies isn't like saying "true love doesn't exist" it's like saying "thinking like this is not healthy." It doesn't really matter if you agree or disagree. Your opinion doesn't make it any more healthy or open. Just because you believe sugar builds muscles doesn't make it true. Just because you hold these pathological behavioral abberations up on sacred pedestals doesn't mean that they really are. What it means is that you're wrong, and you don't want to admit it, because you don't want to see your own problems. All this talk about how you're really pretty happy is just that -- avoiding the point. It's shifting responsibility. "I don't really need to change because I'm not unhappy, see!"

It doesn't matter if you're unhappy. No one cares about your happiness right now. We care about ours. And we get unhappy when someone thinks we'll be their best friend in the world because we're wearing a Star Wars tee. It's shallow, it's superficial, and it's selfish on your part. If you don't change, people will continue to largely not like you, and that's not the fault of the people, that's your fault for being too selfish to take their feelings into account in your desperate rush to find a kindred spirit. 

From the GSF article:


> in the long run, social fallacies cost a lot of stress and drama, to no real benefit. You can be tolerant without being indiscriminate, and you can be loyal to friends without being compulsive about it.




So, you see, PROBLEMS. Saying true love doesn't exist is a cosmological statement of dubious truth, saying GSF's cause problems is a cause and effect relationship. The mere fact that you hold some of these up to "true love" kind of levels means that they are unhealthy obsessions on which you've founded your sense of being. This means that it is probably beyond the powers of a message board to do anything to you, especially since you're so adamant about your self-interest that you're ignoring the wise advice in favor of saying "there's no real problem, see!" 



> I've appreciated all of it, even if a lot of it was excessively mean, but I think I invited that.




It wasn't excessively mean. It was accurate. If you don't want it to be accurate anymore, it's gonna require a personal revolution, one that you want. Because no amount of our cruelty will ever *make* you change. Change is in your own hands.


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## d20Dwarf (Apr 20, 2005)

fusangite said:
			
		

> Another thing that was useful for me: frozen drink crystals -- always have them around in case you run out of diet pop.




Not to turn this into an Atkins thread, but make sure that's *caffeine free* diet soda. Caffeine is not a good mix with the Atkins diet.


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## Empress (Apr 20, 2005)

Majoru Oakheart said:
			
		

> I'm not really all that unhappy.



Of course you are. You just pretend you're not, so it doesn't break you. When you're in the subway and people don't sit next to you, or watch you pass in a disapproving stare, then you pretend not to notice and really concentrate on the videogames you're going to play. It's easy, but it's  not helpful.



> I'm a bit complacent.  Sometimes the fact that almost nothing has changed in my life for the good in a couple of years gets to me, and I do believe that change is on the horizon for me.  Whether it happens to me by accident or I force the change has yet to be seen, but do not believe you have not motivated me, you have.



"Change is on the horizon"? What do you think will happen? A gym coach accidentally knocks on your door and makes you excercise? Change is now, or change is not. But change is nowhere except inside of you.



> I'm not as overweight or in dire need of change, IMHO as everyone on the board believes I am from my post.  I agree with what you say, and plan on making changes of some type for sure.  I think you overexaggerate slightly.  But, thank you for replying.  I really do appreciate your comments.



You really want just to get off easy, right? You're betraying yourself here. You "plan on making changes of some type for sure"? You know how often I said the exact same thing, while inherently knowing it was a lie? That's not motivation. Motivation would be to log off ENWorld, go outside and walk for a mile or two. Take one of your books, sit down whenever or at a café, and read if you want. Or plug your i-Pod in. But do something. Don't talk of doing something, do it.



> I have friends who I care about and game with regularly.  I had a lot of fun joking around with my coworkers last night.  Talked to the woman again, if only briefly since there was too much work to do.  I am already planning going out for coffee with my best friend on Thursday and hope to get some reading done today.  Looking forward to playing my new character in the Friday D&D game, a Wood Elf Barbarian/Druid.  Have some prep work to do for my Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil game on Saturday.



Have fun!



> Everyone in this thread has made it sound like I am horribly different than all of you.  I'm not.  But as long as everyone has the opinion that I'm too full of myself, I doubt they'll ever find that out.



Oh, that's precious. You dismiss our posts in one easy swipe. "Yeah, let them say what they want, they don't know me." Have you even read what people here wrote? You are no different than any of us. Funsagite wrote about his problems, several others did, too. What I'm telling you is what I would tell myself two years ago. 

You're not special. You're no more intelligent, or educated, or emotionally mature / vulnerable than 90% of us. We recognize you. Doesn't matter what shirt you wear. And that is actually meant positively.



> I've appreciated all of it, even if a lot of it was excessively mean, but I think I invited that.



Well, I know I intended my words to pierce your shell. The fact that it makes you feel uncomfortable enough to try and end this discussion shows me I succeeded. But while our comments may have been mean, they were not mean-spirited. We just don't want you to become the Simpson's comic book guy.

But I'll end this here, as well. I don't think there's much we can do, anyway, and the little what was possible, we did. It's up to you now.

Do or don't.


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## fusangite (Apr 20, 2005)

d20Dwarf said:
			
		

> Not to turn this into an Atkins thread, but make sure that's *caffeine free* diet soda. Caffeine is not a good mix with the Atkins diet.



Thanks for catching my error there. For that matter, I should also have said "diet drink crystals" instead of "frozen drink crystals."


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## iwatt (Apr 20, 2005)

In an ironic twist of fate, my soccer team (playing in a very competitive amateur league) just went through a lot of the problems described in the GSF article.   Of course you'd have to rename them JSFs.


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## I'm A Banana (Apr 20, 2005)

Yeah, a lot more people than geeks suffer from those fallacies. Geeks are just perhaps the most infamous.


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## Andor (Apr 20, 2005)

Majoru Oakheart said:
			
		

> I may be lazy, but I'm not dead.  Nor will I be anytime soon.  I shouldn't have even started this thread, I wasn't feeling great that day.  Everyone in this thread has made it sound like I am horribly different than all of you.  I'm not.  But as long as everyone has the opinion that I'm too full of myself, I doubt they'll ever find that out.
> 
> I love you guys, even if I mostly lurk here, I know some of you pretty decently from your posts.  Thanks for your input.  I've appreciated all of it, even if a lot of it was excessively mean, but I think I invited that.




Look, I think the point you're missing here is that we're not trying to tell you how to change because we're different from you and we hate who you are. We, perhaps every single person who has posted in this thread, were you. We listen to your self-description and say "That's who I was/could have been." or "There, but for the grace of god, go I." Except it's not the grace of god, it's having the novel notion that perhaps there is something to be learned from the people in preppy shirts and following through with observation and change.
The vociferousness you hear on this thread stem from our desire to change our younger selves into our current happier selves. 

So stop thinking we don't know who you are, or can't understand you. Listening to you is like reading an old diary or peering into a time-distorted mirror. We know you, we know ourselves, and we know Comic-book guy that we could have been, and you still might be. Choose the future you want and start working towards it.

Yours in Geekdom,


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## fusangite (Apr 20, 2005)

That was beautiful Andor. I heartily endorse your post.


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## d20Dwarf (Apr 21, 2005)

fusangite said:
			
		

> Thanks for catching my error there. For that matter, I should also have said "diet drink crystals" instead of "frozen drink crystals."




No problem. "Drink crystals" to me suggests Crystal Light, which is always sugar-free, so I didn't even consider something like Kool-Aid.


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## cignus_pfaccari (Apr 21, 2005)

I just recently started going back to the gym (after four months of inactivity due to lack of time around Christmas and then killing my back).

Not so I'll be more chick-attractive.

Not actually to lose weight, though that'd be an enjoyable result.

Nor, is it so I can walk up two flights of stairs without being winded, though I'd really like that.

I got tired of spending money that I wasn't using.

Not necessarily the best reason, but it has its advantages.  

Brad


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## Teflon Billy (Apr 21, 2005)

d20Dwarf said:
			
		

> Not to turn this into an Atkins thread, but make sure that's *caffeine free* diet soda. Caffeine is not a good mix with the Atkins diet.




Nice save Wil.


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## Andor (Apr 21, 2005)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> Nice save Wil.




I so totally read that as "Nice will save."


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## twofalls (Apr 22, 2005)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> Up until recently, marrying your "high school sweetheart" was considered par for the course -- my parents did that.
> 
> Of course, I'm also in no great hurry to have a family. I was born by the time my parents were this age. I'm willing to let it slide a little bit longer while I get stuff figured out.



I married my high school sweetheart. At the time (mid 80's) it was not the popular thing to do, in fact I had all kinds of people telling me how crazy I was, except my parents. They married out of High School, and they knew how amazing Katy is.

Ultimatly, I asked myself this question;"What's the worst thing that could happen?". I considered the options and decided that coming to the end of my life and wishing I'd had the courage to marry the girl I fell in love with in high school was the worst thing that could happen. That made the choice very easy for me.

We celebrated our 16th wedding anniversary last March, and I'm head over heels in love with her. I can say with joy that High School was the start of the favorite period of my life, and I'm still living it.

Edit: I posted this after reading the posts about high school and family early on. A lot of other less happy stuff had been posted since, so if you were on a roll I apologize for derailing you all...


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## fusangite (Apr 22, 2005)

I think Marjoru has abandoned us but I always find stories like yours heartening.


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## devilbat (Apr 22, 2005)

I know I'm joining this party late, but I would just like to add that not all gamers from Winnipeg avoid showering on a daily basis.  Most of us are able to find the time.


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## Thornir Alekeg (Apr 22, 2005)

I was less concerned about the hygiene of gamers in Winnipeg than I was about the values:



> So, I see people acting like idiots, getting drunk out of their mind, treating women like crap, killing themselves and other with drugs and alcohol. If I voice my opinion on any of these things, however, I am treated like an outcast for not accepting the things that everyone else does.


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## devilbat (Apr 22, 2005)

> So, I see people acting like idiots, getting drunk out of their mind, treating women like crap, killing themselves and other with drugs and alcohol. If I voice my opinion on any of these things, however, I am treated like an outcast for not accepting the things that everyone else does.
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, Manitoba must be nasty place. The society I live in frowns upon this stuff.





Ah yes.  Unfortunately the jaded view of one, casts a dark shadow on our little prairie town.  I would say that this is a vast over generalization.   

There is so much to quote from this angst ridden individual, that I don't know where to start.  So I won't.


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## fusangite (Apr 22, 2005)

devilbat said:
			
		

> Ah yes.  Unfortunately the jaded view of one, casts a dark shadow on our little prairie town.



That's okay. The shadow is utterly blotted out by the much larger and more substantial shadow of Randy Bachman.


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## devilbat (Apr 22, 2005)

> That's okay. The shadow is utterly blotted out by the much larger and more substantial shadow of Randy Bachman.




Actually, Randy Bachman is a shadow of his former self, after having his stomach stapled.  He's looking quite svelt.  Burton Cummings on the the other hand, needs to learn how to say no the the Salisbury House burgers, but I digress.


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## Majoru Oakheart (Oct 25, 2008)

I will probably regret resurrecting this thread, but here goes nothing.

So, it's been a couple of years since this thread happened.  I stopped posting in it because I really couldn't take the abuse any longer.  After I stopped reading it life went by as it normally does.  I felt better.

I probably should give you a rough update.  I don't really think I lost any weight, not that I ever really wanted to.  I feel a lot better about myself than I used to, mostly do to a change of careers to something I actually like doing.  I'm working Operations for IBM, monitoring their computer systems.  I'm not being yelled at continually for call times, aftercall work and all the other stuff that comes with working at a call center.  I finally feel like I'm doing something worthwhile.  

As for the rest...still single.  Don't think my habits have appreciably changed.  Still no drinking, still no drugs, still no desire.  I actually have to leave work shortly, so I'll update further in a short while.


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