# Brutal Throw too strong?



## Darklone (Jan 5, 2007)

Sooo. I guess this has been discussed thorougly here. So if someone could provide some old links, I'd be happy and the thread might be closed.

Otherwise: I just built a halforc thrower char with Brutal Throw, racial levels and rage... And I think it's as sick as allowing feats for Dex as additional ranged damage.

And if this wouldn't be bad enough... upgrade Power Throw.

What's your experience?


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## Iku Rex (Jan 5, 2007)

As if this wouldn't be bad enough ... check out the Boodstorm Blade PrC from Tome of Battle. 

(BTW, if anyone else is wondering the feats he's talking about are from Complete Adventurer.)


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## justinsluder (Jan 5, 2007)

Well, if I didn't know about the Axethrower feat from PGtF I'd say Brutal Throw was okay.  I would house rule that you have to select a type of damage (bludgeoning, piercing, slashing) to which Brutal Throw applies to.  It can be selected up to three times that way, and would be slightly more balanced.

At least I think so........


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## Darklone (Jan 5, 2007)

*The interesting part is highlighted... Do you think that's not too strong? One more feat and he'll throw through DR with Power Throw. He needs Extra Rage (or barbarian levels), Weapon Focus and WS... This is Point Buy 36, so simply lower str by two.*

Gronk Spearslugger Needmorefeats, male halforc Paragon3/Ftr4, LN, medium humanoid.
Init +...
Languages (Languages) Oink?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
AC 18, touch 10, flat-footed 18
hp 67 (7 HD)
Fort +12, Ref +4, Will +4 (+6)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Speed 20 ft. (4 squares)
Melee (Spear +1 twohanded) +16/+11 (1d8 + 13/*3), (Spiked Gauntlet +15/+10 (1d4 + /*2), TWF possible
Ranged (Spear+1) 1d8 +9 (1d8+9/*3)
*Ranged Routine (Rage, PBS, Rapid Shot, TWF)
2 Spears +1, Spear, Javelin of Lightning:
+15 (1d8+11)/+15 (1d8+11)/+14 (1d8+5)/(5d6/Refl DC14) or  Spear +9 (1d8+10)*
...
Combat Gear: Gauntlets of Ogre strength (4000gp), 2 Spear +1 (2 * 2301gp), 10 Spears (10gp), 3 Javelin of Lightning (3 * 1500gp), Cloak of Protection +2 (4000 gp), Fullplatemail (1500 gp), 2 Quaals feather token whip, 2 Spiked Gauntlet. 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Abilities Str 25+2 ( +8 ), Dex 10 (+0), Con 16 (+3), Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 6
SQ (catch this!), Rage 1/day
Feats: Slow (trait), Power Attack, Brutal Throw, Quickdraw, PBS, TWF, Rapid Shot.


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## Machiavelli (Jan 5, 2007)

Usually you'll just specialize in one weapon, anyway, so limiting the options for weapons Brutal Throw applies to doesn't actually balance anything.  Besides, any idea with the words "limiting the options" in it should be scrutinized carefully before using in a role playing game.

That said, I do think Brutal Throw is as silly as applying Strength to damage without also applying it to range or tying range to damage.


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## starwed (Jan 5, 2007)

You've got the slight problem that your ranged routine works only once.  

Ignoring the bloodstone blade, this just isn't that powerful.  I built a pretty good fighter/master thrower once using this concept, but the limiting factor is that once you've thrown a weapon, you don't get it back.  And returning weapons come back at the beginning of your next turn, so you can only use one of them (or two if dual wielding.)

Now, the bloodstone blade's lightning ricochet does make a pretty good combo.  ^_^


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## Darklone (Jan 5, 2007)

Once? Because of rage? Yupp, once per day. Because of the spears? No, the char could have bought more +1 spears... 

And neither Rage nor the magical spears are the bad part of the combo, it's bad enough if he throws it without either, what he can do all day long (Guess how many spears he can carry). Certainly, it's no sick PrClass combo... yet it looks too strong to me. Don't forget he's not at all buffed yet as adventuring PCs normally are.


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## Boondoggle (Jan 5, 2007)

First of all, *any* build using 36 point buy can be brutal. In cases with extraordinarily high stats, feats that allow 'swapping stats' for something are extremely powerful.

That said, I also think the feat is a bit overpowered as it is. The idea is good, it's just too useful as it is, and requires very little sacrifice (1 feat slot from a fighter build). I would change it to require weapon focus (a thrown weapon) and allow it only to work on weapons with which the character has weapon focus. Alternatively, have the prereqs be power attack & +6 BAB


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## Darklone (Jan 5, 2007)

Build the same thing with Point Buy 28. It will still rock like hell. (I think I forgot the PBS damage. Yes I did.)

And that's not even some insane monster build. Give that feat to any large or bigger monster race and have fun.


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## MatthewJHanson (Jan 5, 2007)

Seeing as how melee fighters add strength to attack and damage for free, I don't see how allowing throwers to do so at the cost of a feat is overpowering.


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## The Grackle (Jan 5, 2007)

It's a powerful feat, but I think it's intentional.  Thrown weapons just aren't that good, and it's sort of a patch to make a spear-chucker playable.  Keep in mind you're throwing magical weapons, thrown weapons have poor ranges, and you're spending a lot of feats.    

You should make the same 1/2 orc (27 str!) as a two-handed Power Attacker and compare average damage output in one round.


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## IanB (Jan 5, 2007)

This would be house rule territory, but this isn't something I would allow you to pull off in my game without at least something like a quiver of Ehlonna to carry all those spears in. This is one instance where a size-modified encumberance system like 1E sort of had would be nice. Sure, you can carry the *weight* of all those spears, but it isn't really reasonable to be running around with a whole bushel of them unimpaired.


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## Slaved (Jan 5, 2007)

I have a few questions about the build.

Why is your speed 20? You have the slow trait and are wearing full plate, should'nt that make your speed 10?

How are you qualifying for rapid shot or twf? Both have higher dexterity requirements than you have dexterity.

If the javelin is a light weapon and you qualify for all of the feats that you picked up then shouldn't your attack routine look a bit different considering the penalty for twf and rapid shot? You have +7 from BAB, +8 from strength, -2 from twf, -2 from rapid shot for a total of +11 which is then modified by magic or masterwork.

Following up on that, are the damages you have down correct? You do have a +8 strength modifier, but where is the rest of the damage coming from? +1 from magic is ok, but that is only +9 and you have +11 down.

It looks like this build is illegal in a numer of different ways. Unless I am missing something?


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## Darklone (Jan 5, 2007)

The Grackle said:
			
		

> You should make the same 1/2 orc (27 str!) as a two-handed Power Attacker and compare average damage output in one round.



I did, but it was rather puny compared to the easily achieved 4 attacks ... and full attack actions due to ranged combat (Rapid Shot and PBS advantage).

Edit: 

Right Slaved... some mistakes are there. 
Dex: 10 is wrong as well as str 25, it should be 24 (and the points put into dex).
Speed: Right. Slow trait has been added afterwards.
Attack routine includes Rage and PBS (+3 to hit and damage)... that's why damage and to hit are kinda screwed up. I forgot to add the PBS damage.
Left hand throw should be a non-magical javelin (1d6 damage) option...

I bet this can be done lots better... yet this relatively easy thing was already a little shock to me. Take a halfogre or goliath or half-giant and forget about the racial levels for example... bigger weapons...


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## starwed (Jan 5, 2007)

> Because of the spears? No, the char could have bought more +1 spears...



The price on those +1 spears will add up pretty quick... I found that, in actual play, buying multiple magic weapons to throw around is prohibitively expensive.  And having the one-use, overpriced javelin of lightning isn't helping your wealth any. 

Also, some nitpicky thoughts on your build.   

By taking the Slow flaw, you actually have a movement rate of 10, not 20.  (That's bad news for a character which plans on using ranged attacks much.  Especially one with an AC of 18!)  Barbarian would help both this and every other part of your build except AC, though.
You need Dex 13 to take PBS, Rapid Shot, _and_ TWF, so that'll knock your Str/Con down another point.
If you throw a spear instead of a javelin using TWF, you'll take another -2 on all your attacks.  (Spears being one-handed weapons.)
(Ah, got beaten to each and every point while posting.  ^_^)



> I think it's as sick as allowing feats for Dex as additional ranged damage.



The trick here is that an archer is a very viable build without such feats.  How many times have you seen a thrower build in D&D?  It's possible, but it's certainly not an optimal choice.  I'd say Brutal Throw makes them competitive, not overpowered.

I think I'll have to find my bloodstone blade build and post it, though, because it's pretty ridiculously sick.


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## Darklone (Jan 5, 2007)

This was a scratch for an arena build... hope that explains the oddities (and the low AC).

You're right in one regard: Getting more attacks with TWF upgrades will lower the worth of Brutal Throw cause the char needs high Dex anyhow.

Thus monsters with str 30+ and dex 10 don't have 7 attacks with mostly full str bonus to attack and damage.

Thanks guys!


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## KarinsDad (Jan 5, 2007)

Where is the Paragon PrC specified?



> Thrown Weapons
> The same rules apply when you throw a weapon *from* each hand.




A Spear is a two handed melee weapon. You cannot use it with Two Weapon Fighting to get an extra attack per round. So, you cannot do this with your ranged attack, nor with your Spiked Gauntlet. With a two handed weapon, it is not a "weapon in each hand".

In fact, since it is a two handed weapon, it is presumably thrown with both hands (although there are no specific rules on that).

Even if TWF was allowed to throw 4 spears per round, there would be a -4 penalty to *all* of the attacks (TWF, off hand weapon not light).


Max 2 melee attacks per round for this PC with a spear.
Max 3 ranged attacks per round for this PC with a spear.


Recall that a spear has a range of 20 feet.

So sure, he is +16 within 20 feet, but he is also +14 within 30 feat, +13 within 40 feet, +11 within 60 feet, +9 within 80 feet, and +7 within 100 feet. Beyond that, he will have to pull out a different missile weapon.

So, a half dozen first level bowmen could seriously damage this guy at 300 feet before he gets into range. When raging, his AC is 16.


As DM, I would also force the player to explain how this PC can carry 15 spear-like objects, all of which can be Quickdrawed. The rules quasi-allow for it, but I would put a limit on the number of spears that could be carried and quickly accessed.


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## starwed (Jan 5, 2007)

> A Spear is a two handed melee weapon.



Changing that to shortspear (which is what I assumed he meant, although I now see that he's doing spear damage) doesn't really change much at all.  Same with javelins.

A quiver of elhonna/efficiency is probably necessary to explain the massive amount of spears/javelins (It can hold 18/6 of them), but he can easily afford that by dumping the lightning javelins.  (Which simply aren't worth much in this build... plus, in a one-shot like an arena, there's supposed to be a hefty markup on one-use items.  [Isn't it x5 the price, or somthing like that?  At least x2, anyway.]  )


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## Darklone (Jan 5, 2007)

KarinsDad said:
			
		

> Where is the Paragon PrC specified?



Halforc paragon.


> A Spear is a two handed melee weapon. You cannot use it with Two Weapon Fighting to get an extra attack per round. So, you cannot do this with your ranged attack, nor with your Spiked Gauntlet. With a two handed weapon, it is not a "weapon in each hand".



Throwing two handed weapons (that are designed to be thrown) needs only one hand. Yet I will gladly accept that I'm wrong here if you show me the relevant rule. Yet I think there was some Sages advice ruling long ago about this... refering to only str damage to thrown twohanded weapons like the spear... 


> Even if TWF was allowed to throw 4 spears per round, there would be a -4 penalty to *all* of the attacks (TWF, off hand weapon not light).



That's why there are javelins (magical and nonmagical ones) in his left hand... sorry, that was cut in the original post.


> Max 2 melee attacks per round for this PC with a spear.
> Max 3 ranged attacks per round for this PC with a spear.



Did I post more than 2 melee attacks with a spear? TWF possible was meant to apply to the spiked gauntlets, not all at once... 


> Recall that a spear has a range of 20 feet.



Range increment. Yupp. The full routine ist most likely not used for distances greater than 40 ft.

At higher distances, he will most likely throw less spears to hit better.


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## starwed (Jan 5, 2007)

> Throwing two handed weapons (that are designed to be thrown) needs only one hand. Yet I will gladly accept that I'm wrong here if you show me the relevant rule.



Well, 


			
				SRD said:
			
		

> Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively.



Your counter-argument might be that it specifies melee weapons, here.  Yet a spear _is_ a melee weapon, even if it's got a range increment.  It doesn't say anything about making melee/ranged attacks, just using a two-handed melee weapon.


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## Slaved (Jan 5, 2007)

Darklone said:
			
		

> I bet this can be done lots better... yet this relatively easy thing was already a little shock to me. Take a halfogre or goliath or half-giant and forget about the racial levels for example... bigger weapons.




One thing at a time!  

I would like to see how this build in particular works out before tossing in other things.



			
				Darklone said:
			
		

> Right Slaved... some mistakes are there.
> Dex: 10 is wrong as well as str 25, it should be 24 (and the points put into dex).
> Speed: Right. Slow trait has been added afterwards.
> Attack routine includes Rage and PBS (+3 to hit and damage)... that's why damage and to hit are kinda screwed up. I forgot to add the PBS damage.
> ...




I will try to figure out what the character looks like with these changes then.
halforc Paragon3/Ftr4
Abilities Str 16 base +2 half-orc +2 paragon +1 level +2 enhancement=23  ( +6 ), Dex 15 (+2), Con 16 (+3), Int 6, Wis 8, Cha 6 (28 point buy)
Init +2
AC 19, touch 11, flat-footed 18
hp 67 (7 HD)
Fort +3para +4fight +3 con +2res=+12, Ref +1para +1fight +2dex+2res=+6, Will +1para +1fight -1wis+2res=+3
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Speed 10 ft. (2 squares)
Melee (Spear twohanded) +13/+8 (1d8 + 9/*3)
Ranged (Spear+1) 1d8 +9 (1d8+9/*3)
Ranged Routine (Rage, PBS, Rapid Shot, TWF)
4 javelins:
+9 (1d6+6)/+9 (1d6+6)/+4 (1d6+3)/+4 (1d6+3)
4 javalins while in a rage:
+11 (1d6+8)/+11 (1d6+8)/+6 (1d6+5)/+6 (1d6+5)
Combat Gear: Gauntlets of Ogre strength (4000gp), 2 Spears (4gp), 10 javelins (10gp), ( Cloak of Protection +2 (4000 gp), Fullplatemail (1500 gp)
SQ Rage 1/day
Feats: Slow (trait), Power Attack, Brutal Throw, Quickdraw, PBS, TWF, Rapid Shot.

This character could easily afford to make all of the weapons masterwork which would give an extra +1 to attack. I don't think that the spears could be thrown with the extra off-hand attack from twf so I changed them to javalins. Even if they could be I think it is even more unlikely that this would not incur full twf penalties rather than the reduced ones so it is probably still better to use the javelins, or at least just use the javelin in the off hand.


Basically this character has no skills to speak of, only barely speaks a language, and moves only slightly faster than a toad. That full attack routine is pretty nice while raging and becomes even nicer if the spears actually are allowed but overall I do not think that it is showing that brutal throw is too strong. Perhaps for one of the other builds it will be more impressive but it does not look that way here.


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## Darklone (Jan 5, 2007)

halforc Paragon3/Ftr4
Abilities Str 17+1 level +4 half-orc&paragon +2 enhancement=24  ( +7 ), Dex 15 (+2), Con 14 (+2), Int 6, Wis 8, Cha 6 (27 point buy)
Init +2
AC 19, touch 11, flat-footed 18
hp 53 (7 HD)
Fort +12, Ref +6, Will +3 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Speed 20 ft. (2 squares)
Melee (Spear MW twohanded) +15/+10 (1d8 + 10/*3)
Ranged Routine (Rage, PBS, Rapid Shot, TWF)
4 MW javelins while in a rage at 20ft:
+16-2TWF-2RS+1PBS+1MW= +14 (1d6+9)/+14 (1d6+9)/+14 (1d6+5)/+9 (1d6+9)
SQ Rage 1/day
Feats: Power Attack, Brutal Throw, Quickdraw, PBS, TWF, Rapid Shot.

Slow removed (only good for arena), Con lowered, point buy optimized, Javelins used, PBS and MW included, little mistake removed (only one javelin comes from the weak left hand).

4 attacks at high to hit values. Sadly no spear here though I'm not yet convinced it's not allowed (would be great for Masterthrower critical increase at level 9) 

I guess I might compare it to a bbn1/ftr6 human with Weapon Specialisation...


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## Slaved (Jan 5, 2007)

If you go barb1/fighter6 you could instead pick up extra rage. You will lose out a bit on normal attack and damge but you will be able to do your trick for 2 extra combats a day. Overall that would be much more useful for a normal campaign I would think.

If you switch to mithril full plate then you will get an extra point of AC and touch AC as well. The reduced armor check penalties would come in handy in a normal game also. I know that my last character with full plate was unable to participate in several battles because of an inability to climb or get across narrow bridges and the like.

...
Thinking about it more if you went straight ranger 6, grabbed the twf chain, gave yourself a 13 (or 14) dex and picked up rapid shot you actually might be in a better situation overall for a game. You would not have the rage and you would be down to a chain shirt or mithril breast plate..... ok, so maybe it would not be better. It would be a thought though.


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## ainbimagh (Jan 5, 2007)

Yes brutal throw is a very powerful feat.

But no, your build is not the best example of its use.


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## shilsen (Jan 5, 2007)

Simple. Just house rule that Brutal Throw has a prerequisite of giant type and is only usable with boulders. 

I'm fairly sure that feat was created just so one could actually have giants hurling boulders that were a threat, as opposed to the MM situation, where PCs smile when a giant picks up a boulder and only get worried when he picks up a melee weapon.


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## Boondoggle (Jan 5, 2007)

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#thrownWeapons said:
			
		

> treat a bolas, javelin, net, or sling as a one-handed weapon.




That brings your attacks to +12 when raging (1/day) and +10 normally. And only if your foe isn't blocked by or in combat with anyone else.

The sacrifices you made for TWF aren't worth the single extra attack that deals less damage. Drop your dex by 1, boost your wis by 2, pick up a shield and take precise shot. Now, most of your attacks will be at +16/+16/+9 rather than +8/+8/+8/+3 (most thrown weapon targets are already in melee).

The places where brutal throw is scary is when something has a huge strength and terrible dex.


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## Christian (Jan 5, 2007)

starwed said:
			
		

> Your counter-argument might be that it specifies melee weapons, here.  Yet a spear _is_ a melee weapon, even if it's got a range increment.  It doesn't say anything about making melee/ranged attacks, just using a two-handed melee weapon.




See 'Thrown Weapons', PHB pg. 113. Throwing a two-handed weapon requires only one hand, but it's a full-round action, so no iterative attacks would be available, even with Quick Draw ...


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## KarinsDad (Jan 6, 2007)

Javelins are not light weapons any more than Spears are.

So with TWF, the current iteration of the character with javelins would be at -4 for TWF.


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## KarinsDad (Jan 6, 2007)

Christian said:
			
		

> See 'Thrown Weapons', PHB pg. 113. Throwing a two-handed weapon requires only one hand, but it's a full-round action, so no iterative attacks would be available, even with Quick Draw ...




Debatable.

You'll note that this sentence in the PHB is hidden within a paragraph solely discussing throwing weapons not designed to be thrown. A Spear is designed to be thrown.



> It is possible to throw a weapon that isn’t designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn’t have a numeric entry in the Range Increment column on Table: Weapons), but a character who does so takes a -4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.




Everything in this paragraph appears to be discussing throwing weapons not designed to be thrown, hence, it appears that a full round action does not apply to spears, just like a 10 foot range increment does not apply to spears, nor does double damage on a critical hit, not does a -4 penalty to hit.

Note: In the SRD, this is not in a separate paragraph. In the PHB, it is.


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## Elder-Basilisk (Jan 6, 2007)

I ran a Living Greyhawk table for a PC that had brutal throw, quickdraw, and a massive quiver of javalins. That was the first time I saw it in play and it seemed... nifty but nothing game-breaking, at least for PCs.

The sample optimized 7th level stats:
+14 (1d6+9)/+14 (1d6+9)/+14 (1d6+5)/+9 (1d6+9)

That's an average of 12.5 points of damage per hit on the first two attacks 8.5 on the third attack, and another 12.5 on the last attack for a total of 46 damage if all hit (on average)

Don't loot too out of whack when compared to a sample semi-optimized 7th level archer:

Wood Elf Fighter 4/Ranger 2/Barbarian 1 28 point buy
Str 20 (22 with gauntlets), Dex 18, Con 12, Int 6, Wis 8, Cha 8
Feats: 1: Point Blank Shot, Rgr 2: Rapid Shot, Ftr 1: Precise Shot, Lvl 3: EWP: Greatbow, Ftr 2: WF: Greatbow, Lvl 6 Extra Rage, Ftr 4: WS: Greatbow

Combat Gear: Gauntlets of Ogre strength (4000gp), +1 flaming Mighty [+8] composite greatbow (around 9112), Cloak of Protection +2 (4000 gp), +1 chain shirt (1250 gp), 2 Quaals feather token whip, 2 Spiked gauntlets, masterwork cold iron greatsword (400gp).

Attack (when raging): +14 [+7 BAB, +4 dex, +1 weapon, +1 Weapon Focus] or +15 when within the same range as the brutal thrower for 1d10+11+1d6 (fire) or 1d10+12+1d6 fire when point blank shot kicks in.

Full Attack at the same range: +13/+13/+8 for 1d10+12+1d6 or an average of 21 points per hit. That's an average of 63 points of damage if all of them hit--a big enough difference, that, even reducing it by 5% to reflect his reduced attack bonuses, it still blows the javalin thrower out of the water.

And the normal archer has several advantages:
1. He beats DR/magic with every attack and can easily carry around special material arrows to beat other kinds of DR for more than a couple attacks. (And he gets to use hit full magical bonus with those other attacks).
2. He has a range increment that lets him do most of that damage at long distance whenever the situation calls for it.
3. He has the ability to do this for multiple rounds without degrading in his ability.

Answering objections:
1. Comparing a flaming bow to +1 javalins is apples and oranges.
A. No it isn't. This character spent roughly the same amount on that one bow as the javalineer spent on his two +1 javalins and his javalins of lightning. As the characters get higher in level, the difference will only be magnified. Two +1 flaming javalins will cost the javalineer nearly as much as a +1 flaming shock or +1 holy bow will cost the archer. The bow adds to every attack. The flaming javalins only work on the first two attacks.

2. But the half-orc is more capable in melee.
A. Not much more capable. Sure, he has Power Attack and Quickdraw to let him be effective in close, but the archer still has full BAB and can afford a masterwork greatsword as well. With a high strength, he's still pretty good. Defensively, the archer's chain shirt +1 is just as good as the half-orc's fullplate.

3. Using rage to power a high strength bow--that's cheesy. This is a silly creation not a real D&D archer.
A 1. And the throwing character is supposed to be a real D&D character? The point was to demonstrate that PC thrower cheese is no worse than PC archer cheese already is--in fact, it is weaker.
A 2. OK, so drop the barbarian class, add third level of ranger, and swap Extra Rage Woodland Archer, Power Attack, or Quickdraw. The archer still does 57 points of damage on a full round of hits compared to 42 points of damage for the thrower. And, even if you only count the full attack bonus attacks, the archer is still ahead with 38 points of damage to the thrower's 36.5

4. Yeah, and what's this greatbow stuff? Take your Complete Warrior weapons out of the picture.
A. OK, if you drop it to a composite longbow and drop the rage, the thrower pull slightly ahead when only highest attack bonus attacks are considered--36.5 is better than 35. However, he's still behind if everything hits (54 to 42 for the archer). Doing so also gives the archer another free feat to have (for instance) Woodland Archer and Power attack, thus drawing pretty much even with the half-orc in melee ability.

5. But why is this comparison at 7th level huh? It doesn't hold true at other levels, does it?
A. It's at 7th level because that's where the OP's example character is.
B. At lower levels, the OP's character doesn't work the same way. He loses strength and loses attacks (since he can't have Rapid Shot and TWF and Brutal Throw without being the level he is and can't have the half-orc paragon strength increase without giving up fighter feats). The archer, on the other hand, works just fine from 3rd level on. He works fine from 2nd level on if you decide to go for single classed fighter instead of fighter/ranger, and from 1st level if you sacrifice the strength and dex to play a human (who will still, I might add, do similar average damage per full attack).

At higher levels, the difference between being able to purchase one good bow vis a vis having to purchase many javalins will become even greater. If a +1 flaming bow is better than a pair (or even four) +1 javalins, a +1 holy bow is even more noticably superior to a pair of +1 flaming javalins and a +1 flaming holy bow is far superior to 4 +1 flaming javalins or even two +1 holy javalins.


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## Ridley's Cohort (Jan 6, 2007)

Darklone said:
			
		

> I just built a halforc thrower char with Brutal Throw, racial levels and rage... And I think it's as sick as allowing feats for Dex as additional ranged damage.
> 
> And if this wouldn't be bad enough... upgrade Power Throw.




The problem is that the Half-Orc is too powerful a race.  +2 Strength is way too good!


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## Darklone (Jan 6, 2007)

ainbimagh said:
			
		

> Yes brutal throw is a very powerful feat.
> 
> But no, your build is not the best example of its use.



Yupp. The problem with a thrower would have been the possibility to get an insane number of attacks with the full TWF feat chain, but this negates the advantage due to Brutal Throw... so yupp, my question has been answered.


			
				FatOldBasilisk said:
			
		

> Wood Elf Fighter 4/Ranger 2/Barbarian 1 28 point buy
> Str 20 (22 with gauntlets), Dex 18, Con 12, Int 6, Wis 8, Cha 8
> Feats: 1: Point Blank Shot, Rgr 2: Rapid Shot, Ftr 1: Precise Shot, Lvl 3: EWP: Greatbow, Ftr 2: WF: Greatbow, Lvl 6 Extra Rage, Ftr 4: WS: Greatbow



Dude, if you weren't probably as ugly as me, I'd love to kiss you. 

I have no idea how often I'm discussing on this board or others the usefulness of str vs dex for archers and how often I hear that dex is much more important and stronger than strength... 

I'm sooo glad to see that others "see the truth" too.

Now... what about if we build a real nice thrower ?

The best (low level though) build that I've seen so far (without relying too much on sneak attack) was a ftr/bbn guy with TWF, ITWF and optional alchemist fire bottles for the secondary attacks... what would be your approach (SRD PC builds only)?


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## shilsen (Jan 6, 2007)

Darklone said:
			
		

> Now... what about if we build a real nice thrower ?
> 
> The best (low level though) build that I've seen so far (without relying too much on sneak attack) was a ftr/bbn guy with TWF, ITWF and optional alchemist fire bottles for the secondary attacks... what would be your approach (SRD PC builds only)?




Pity you said only SRD, since I'd have suggested a Talenta Halfling from Eberron with the Boomerang Daze and Boomerang Ricochet feats from Races of Eberron. He can hit an enemy and ricochet the boomerang to hit another enemy within 10 ft, taking a -2 to hit. And on each hit, the enemy has to make a Fort save of DC 10 + damage or be dazed for 1 rd. Ouch!

For a completely core and low lvl build which is really basic, how about a half-orc Ftr2/Bbn1 with maxed Str (20) and Quick Draw, TWF, PB Shot, Rapid Shot, throwing darts with his off-hand and javelins with his primary hand. While raging, he'd be making 3 attacks a round, doing 1d6+8 dmg with 2 javelins and 1d4+4 with a dart, assuming the target(s) are at 30 ft or less. Not too shabby for a 3rd lvl guy.


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## Darklone (Jan 6, 2007)

You mean like the skiprocks in Sword&Fist? That was deadly.


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## the Jester (Jan 6, 2007)

Honestly, I think Brutal Throw is a much-needed bone thrown to throwers... thrown weapons pretty much suck under the core rules.


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## satori01 (Jan 6, 2007)

I pretty much housed rule long ago in 3.0 day that you could Power Attack and add STR damage to thrown weapons.  If we take questions of form out of the equation, it is obvious that a higher strength person throwing an axe will probably embed the axe deeper than a weaker person.


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## Squire James (Jan 6, 2007)

satori01 said:
			
		

> I pretty much housed rule long ago in 3.0 day that you could Power Attack and add STR damage to thrown weapons.  If we take questions of form out of the equation, it is obvious that a higher strength person throwing an axe will probably embed the axe deeper than a weaker person.




You don't need a House Rule.  Thrown weapons have STR bonus to damage in the RAW.  Brutal Throw allows the STR bonus to apply to attack rolls instead of DEX.  I think the feat is powerful, but within the parameters of the current rules.  I consider Power Attack with two-handed weapons to be more powerful than this.


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## Elder-Basilisk (Jan 6, 2007)

The most effective thrown weapons character I've seen is actually a halfling master thrower/invisible blade who throws an incredible number of daggers each round. I don't know the exact build, but, without sneak attack, it's comparable to a competent archer at close range without buffs and if you add sneak attack or any static attack/damage boost (bardsong, for instance, or the nobility domain ability), its damage per round skyrockets.



			
				Darklone said:
			
		

> The best (low level though) build that I've seen so far (without relying too much on sneak attack) was a ftr/bbn guy with TWF, ITWF and optional alchemist fire bottles for the secondary attacks... what would be your approach (SRD PC builds only)?


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## Darklone (Jan 6, 2007)

Has someone seen a viable shuriken thrower build? Flame arrow would be nice for that one...

I'd love to see such a build due to style reasons.


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## Sithobi1 (Jan 6, 2007)

I've done a sneak-attack based thrower build, but like all sneak attack builds, it has major problems against those who are immune to crits.


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## shilsen (Jan 7, 2007)

Darklone said:
			
		

> Has someone seen a viable shuriken thrower build? Flame arrow would be nice for that one...
> 
> I'd love to see such a build due to style reasons.



 Absolutely, but like Sithobi1, it was sneak attack dependent. 

It was a Goblin Monk2/Ninja3, with TWF and Rapid Shot. Could use the ninja ghost step to go invisible and then make anywhere from 1 to 4 shuriken attacks a round (normal attack, TWF, Rapid Shot, Flurry of Blows), depending on what it thought the chances of hitting were. 

He would invest in +1 Shocking and +1 Bane shuriken if he could, so with sneak attack damage, he was doing Str + 2 + 3d6 (with the Shocking and sneak attack) or Str + 3 + 4d6 (with Bane and sneak attack) per attack.


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## frankthedm (Jan 7, 2007)

Squire James said:
			
		

> I think the feat is powerful, but within the parameters of the current rules.  I consider Power Attack with two-handed weapons to be more powerful than this.



I and some others consider that power attack 2 for 1 a hint overpowered.

Brutal throw really upgrades a Giant's to hit with thrown weapons and makes the STR score even more valuable than it already is.  Thrown weapons may need a bump, but I think Brutal Throw is a touch too good for the foks who can make it truely devistating.

If one wants to bump throwing weapons, let the throwing property have a "return cut" when a user with multiple BAB attacks throws one as a full round action.


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## Darklone (Jan 7, 2007)

... or make it easier to enchant a heap of thrown weapons a la ammunition with a certain +X to hit and damage... 

More buff spells for thrown weapons like Flame Arrow would be nice.


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