# Doctor Who - Victory of the Daleks - spoilers



## Plane Sailing (Apr 19, 2010)

I'll not put any spoilers directly in this first post, at least not without including some lines of text which will appear in the preview 'tooltip'.

There is one thing which I think was great (and necessary) about this story, one thing which seemed mind-bogglingly stupid, and one thing which seemed to me indicative of a worrying trend.

1. Great and necessary
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At last, a story with daleks which doesn't result in them all being destroyed. If you want to keep using them, you've got to let some get away! Only one escaped from the 'daleks vs cybermen' story, but he was then tossed away in a pointless later story. All the other 'dalek' stories has resulted in a wipe out for them.

Here at last we have daleks escaping to take their brand of ultra-xenophobia onwards.

Shame they look so silly with the humpback and all, but can't have everything.
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2. Mind bogglingly stupid
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The android is a bomb powerful enough to split the planet in two, but getting him to think emotional thoughts turns off the bomb and winds its count-down back? What kind of numpty builds a bomb like that? The whole scene doesn't make sense.

What is worse, it led directly onto...
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3. Worrying trend
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Once again new assistant saves the day. Last week it would have all gone pear shaped if it wasn't for Pond's assistance. This week it would have all gone pear-shaped if it wasn't for Pond's assistance. In the last two weeks disturbed kissogram girl has miraculously jumped into the kind of 'knowing partnership' with the doctor which previous assistants took weeks to grow into.

Bottom line - if it wasn't for the assistant, the last two weeks would have been disasters for the doctor. Makes him seem like a fool, and what's the point in watching a program about a fool of a doctor? It is what turned me off Tom Baker in the K-9/Romana years, when he bumbled along and the day was continually saved by his smarter, more savvy assistants.

Gah!
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Cheers


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## Morrus (Apr 19, 2010)

For me it was retrofitting spitfires into space vehicles with the dalek tech, getting and training the pilots, and then having them in orbit within a few hundred metres of the dalek saucer all within the space of 1-2 sentences of the Doctor's conversation with the daleks.


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## Plane Sailing (Apr 19, 2010)

Gosh yes, I think my brain edited that out of my memory!


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## Morrus (Apr 19, 2010)

Don't get me wrong - I'm cool with the concept.  I've seen people criticising the spitfires-in-space concept, to which the only reply is "dalek technology, dummy!".  It's just that I can't get around it being done during the space of a single conversation!  

If they'd fitted a two-day gap into the script (even if it were just a throwaway line), I'd be completely behind it as an awesome concept.


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## Plane Sailing (Apr 19, 2010)

The problem is that they had already introduced the drama of 'Oh no, the Daleks are turning the lights on in London and Nazi bombers are 10 minutes away', leaving them no room for such a two-day gap!

I couldn't help thinking about how this contrasted with 'The Empty Child/Doctor Dances' under Ecclestone. This one was a lot more 'wahoo' and blindingly obvious to the population; I feel the stories have worked best when more claustrophobic and scary. London under the Blitz is getting a bit crowded for Doctor Who, isn't it?


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## Krug (Apr 19, 2010)

Yeah as I said in another thread the Doctor sometimes comes across as too much of playing a supporting role. I've only started watching this season, and really liked the second ep. This ep wasn't bad but the 'be human' manner in which they defused the bomb was just too silly.


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## Felon (Apr 19, 2010)

Regarding Amy: 

It appears that we're unlikely to get a companion that's not a working-class cheeky chit any time soon. This steers the show's creators into a problem where they know that it would be politically-incorrect to see their female lead reduced to a screaming damsel-in-distress. So, she has to contribute. Now, how do you contribute when you are accompanying someone who knows everything? Well, she has to capitalize on her working-class-cheeky-chit humanity in the form of empathy and insight, figuring out angles that the Doctor is just not quite human enough to pick up on. 

Oh well, at least this episode we didn't see any shamelessly self-conscious, ham-fisted affirmative action, which seems increasingly relentless on BBC shows.


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## Mallus (Apr 19, 2010)

re: Amy... I'm glad the new Doctors have partners instead of foils. After 30-odd years we _get_ that he's clever, awesome, heroic, and/or a lonely god. It's nice the characters who share roughly half the screen time with him get to contribute on a regular basis. 

re: instant spaceships... I assumed the robot scientist had been working on a prototypes and maybe this tech was a ground-based anti-gravity bubble projector, or, well, something. I like to make up things that help the story go down smoother. It's something of a hobby.

Really, the important thing was 'robot scientist turned planes into spaceships'. As with most sci-fi, the how's, when's and why's are all BS anyway, so I tend to ignore them.

re: black hole heart bomb. You can kinda see how this was supposed to work. By reminding the robot scientist of his perceived (and experienced) humanity they hoped he could override the destruct order issued by the Daleks. Essentially, the bomb might have been in his heart but the command was still routed through his brain/CPU and therefore could be overridden with enough sentimental balderdash. 

Again, once I get the gist of it, I'm satisfied (my wife calls this critical habit "being easy"). 

re: episode in general... I liked it, though I wish it were less rushed.


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## Pseudonym (Apr 19, 2010)

Mallus said:


> Essentially, the bomb might have been in his heart but the command was still routed through his brain/CPU and therefore could be overridden with enough sentimental balderdash.




I can see the follow-up episode later in the season when the Doctor return to find the remains of the Earth only to learn that the robot guy got really mad one day and Boom!

Seems like after disarming the bomb, removing it would have been the next order of business, even if it was just a few seconds of sonic screwdriver and a line of technobabble.  Unless that plot point will be relevant later.


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## Pseudonym (Apr 19, 2010)

Felon said:


> Well, she has to capitalize on her working-class-cheeky-chit humanity in the form of empathy and insight, figuring out angles that the Doctor is just not quite human enough to pick up on.




Don't forget journeying through time and space for the purpose of either pointing out that she is Scottish or meeting other Scottish people.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Apr 20, 2010)

What do people make of the woman that broke out in cries because her boyfriend died? Could this be 



Spoiler



a ancestor of Amy Pond, and indicate a break in the timeline and part of these seasons's arc? I mean, the scene was short and seemed... kinda out of place, or at least nothing came from ... That makes me suspicious.


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## nerfherder (Apr 20, 2010)

Pseudonym said:


> I can see the follow-up episode later in the season when the Doctor return to find the remains of the Earth only to learn that the robot guy got really mad one day and Boom!
> 
> Seems like after disarming the bomb, removing it would have been the next order of business, even if it was just a few seconds of sonic screwdriver and a line of technobabble.  Unless that plot point will be relevant later.




I may be misremembering, but I thought it was his power supply.


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## nerfherder (Apr 20, 2010)

You can download a copy of the "To Victory" poster here: http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/d11s01/d11s01e01_to_victory.pdf


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## Mathew_Freeman (Apr 20, 2010)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> What do people make of the woman that broke out in cries because her boyfriend died? Could this be
> 
> 
> 
> ...




That's a very interesting idea, and made me wonder, too.

I'm also wondering about Amy generally. As pointed out, she seems a bit too smart, too quick to pick things up and too on-a-par with the Doctor. Plus, she doesn't remember the Daleks.

Are we absolutely sure she's human? Perhaps, after the events of the last Xmas special, she's something else... maybe another Time Lord? This is wild speculation on my part, of course.

I also like the recurring theme that this Doctor is always late... I hope that becomes important later, too.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Apr 20, 2010)

Mathew_Freeman said:


> That's a very interesting idea, and made me wonder, too.
> 
> I'm also wondering about Amy generally. As pointed out, she seems a bit too smart, too quick to pick things up and too on-a-par with the Doctor. Plus, she doesn't remember the Daleks.
> 
> ...





Spoiler



Looks like I was over-speculating, at least by what someone mentioned from the Doctor Who Confidential for that episode. Unless they are tricking us...


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## Silverblade The Ench (Apr 21, 2010)

1) His asssisstant is gorgeous, please do nto forget that fact, it is very very important for some of us *cough* 

2) Yes SCOTTISH persons, not just you lot South of Watford, or them Welsh timerift junkies around Cardiff, it was about bloody time! 
Though Eve Myles proves how scrumptious our cross-border Celtic brethern can be! 
And 

3) Spitfires in Space...HOW BLOODY AWESOME WAS THAT!! Whoohooo!

4) "_Broadsword calling Danny Boy!"..._damn near fell off my chair, no one else get the refference? hehe

5) Yes there is obviously something strange about Amy....she's also got that crack following her across the multiverse...

6) Catherine Tate's assisstant, though at 1st I hated the idea, was best, ever, as folk note, having a foil for the Doc, it was about time, and she was superb

7) what many of you forget is the Doc needs the Human touch! he's lost it, he needs someone to anchor him, and to give practical wisdom which his super intelligence cannot see, that is the point of the assisstants


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## Morrus (Apr 21, 2010)

Silverblade The Ench said:


> 7) what many of you forget




Do we?



> is the Doc needs the Human touch! he's lost it, he needs someone to anchor him, and to give practical wisdom which his super intelligence cannot see, that is the point of the assisstants




Only according to RTD in the last year or two.  That's a new concept, and not one I agree with; I always saw him as compassionate and loving life, and not needing someone to tell him to do the right thing.


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## Felon (Apr 21, 2010)

Hadn't seen any comments about this yet, and it seems relevant since Amy is even wearing the same outfit (nice boots!):

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEVF_TfKsrc]YouTube - DWO - Doctor Who - The Adventure Games - Trailer[/ame]

You get to run around. You get to push cars. You get to rotate the camera. In other words, it's everything a whovian could ever ask for.


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## Felon (Apr 21, 2010)

Morrus said:


> Only according to RTD in the last year or two.  That's a new concept, and not one I agree with; I always saw him as compassionate and loving life, and not needing someone to tell him to do the right thing.



Yeah, I'm kind of leaning that way. My ideal Doctor was Sylvester McCoy because he really captured what the character was to me: one part tweedy Cambridge professor and one part train-jumping vagabod. He was a polymath. a master of the humanities as well as a science whiz. Now they play up the lonely god bit and he comes across as out-of-touch. OTOH, I guess when you're an intellectual giant, you do forget how the ants feel sometimes.


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## Mouseferatu (Apr 21, 2010)

I didn't mind most of the episode that much; the "talking the bomb down" was indeed a bit silly, but I can see where they were trying to go.

My big objection is the Skittles-brand Daleks. What the heck is with the new color-coded candy shells? Looks _really_ goofy.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Apr 21, 2010)

Felon said:


> Hadn't seen any comments about this yet, and it seems relevant since Amy is even wearing the same outfit (nice boots!):
> 
> YouTube - DWO - Doctor Who - The Adventure Games - Trailer
> 
> You get to run around. You get to push cars. You get to rotate the camera. In other words, it's everything a whovian could ever ask for.



Color me interested.


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## nerfherder (Apr 21, 2010)

Morrus said:


> Only according to RTD in the last year or two.  That's a new concept, and not one I agree with; I always saw him as compassionate and loving life, and not needing someone to tell him to do the right thing.




Yep - in Genesis of the Daleks he has the opportunity to wipe out the whole Dalek race, but can't bring himself to commit genocide.

The role of the companion has traditionally been to represent the viewer.  They give the writers the excuse for the Doctor to explain things to us via the companion.  This is part of the reason why I think Romana wasn't a good companion, and Leela was brilliant (she knew even less than us).


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## Krug (Apr 21, 2010)

Mouseferatu said:


> I didn't mind most of the episode that much; the "talking the bomb down" was indeed a bit silly, but I can see where they were trying to go.
> 
> My big objection is the Skittles-brand Daleks. What the heck is with the new color-coded candy shells? Looks _really_ goofy.




Yeah. So all they got was a paint job? Uhhuh. I liked the worn out look better.


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## Mathew_Freeman (Apr 21, 2010)

Silverblade The Ench said:


> 4) "_Broadsword calling Danny Boy!"..._damn near fell off my chair, no one else get the reference? hehe




I didn't - what was it referencing?


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## Felon (Apr 21, 2010)

Mouseferatu said:


> I didn't mind most of the episode that much; the "talking the bomb down" was indeed a bit silly, but I can see where they were trying to go.
> 
> My big objection is the Skittles-brand Daleks. What the heck is with the new color-coded candy shells? Looks _really_ goofy.



Forget Skittles. It's the Power Exterminators!

Red Dalek! Brontosaurus power! Yellow Dalek! Pterodactyl power! And so on...


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## Morrus (Apr 21, 2010)

Mathew_Freeman said:


> I didn't - what was it referencing?




[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdaeBiF__u4]YouTube - Broadsword calling danny boy[/ame]


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## Redrobes (Apr 21, 2010)

I was so enthused with Ep1 as the dialog, humour, and story seemed just right and promised a series that might equal the best of the classics. Ep2 made a significant drop which could be excused as a one off cos it was ok just not scintillating. But Ep3 was utterly ridiculous on so many levels and seemed to be gasping for every moment to drop to that familiar barrel scraping level that's plagued all the modern series barring exceptions. The Broadsword Danny Boy reference was an example of where it was so unnecessary. Perhaps I am less "Easy" than previous posters.

Next week Blink II - a remake... don't do it man. I will now expect nothing from this series and maybe ill get lucky now and again just like the last ones. Nothing wrong with Matt or Karens acting, effects or production tho.

Oh just noticed that this Ep made a break with the previous two by being written by Mark Gatiss. Moffats back in the chair for the next two. Oh well maybe its down the script writer then.

(Wonder if the next Dalek ep will reveal the all new Hello Kitty Dalek or the Don't be Naughty and put it in the bin Mr Litter Dalek in a nice blancmange pink shade... maybe Davros will make us chuck with stories of how abused he was as a kid...)


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## Plane Sailing (Apr 21, 2010)

Mouseferatu said:


> I didn't mind most of the episode that much; the "talking the bomb down" was indeed a bit silly, but I can see where they were trying to go.
> 
> My big objection is the Skittles-brand Daleks. What the heck is with the new color-coded candy shells? Looks _really_ goofy.




It's a nod to the early days

http://www.posters.ws/images/1472/doctor_who_and_daleks.jpg


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## MarkB (Apr 21, 2010)

What worries me about Amy not remembering the Daleks is that it suggests a worrying possible direction for the "space-crack" arc plot. Namely that, rather than being the jagged line it appears to be, that crack may actually more resemble a big, round, red button inscribed "RESET".

If people no longer remember the Daleks, what else don't they remember? I have a bad feeling that the intention may be to reset the in-universe Earth to match our own in terms of awareness of alien activity. I can see that appealing to the writers - makes it easier to identify with the population, discards lots of inconvenient continuity - but the concept of humanity gradually coming to terms with being part of a wider universe is an aspect of the new series that I really like, and I'd hate to see it discarded.


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## Felon (Apr 22, 2010)

Re: Danny Boy and Broadsword

Geez, those Germans have thousands of rounds to spew at Clint Eastwood...and not one lousy potato masher to spare?


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## Plane Sailing (Apr 22, 2010)

Morrus said:


> Only according to RTD in the last year or two.  That's a new concept, and not one I agree with; I always saw him as compassionate and loving life, and not needing someone to tell him to do the right thing.




Indeed. 

Think back to David Tennants first series outing (was it New New York?) with the hospital run by cat people and all the plague marys get out - and his response is to see them as the victims rather than the monsters, and he cures them all, saying 'that's why they call me the doctor!'


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## Plane Sailing (Apr 22, 2010)

Mouseferatu said:


> I didn't mind most of the episode that much; the "talking the bomb down" was indeed a bit silly, but I can see where they were trying to go.




It seems to me that one of the big problems is that the obvious solution to a planet killing bomb in a robot is to quickly pop the robot into the tardis, go somewhere else (e.g. the dalek spaceship) and push the bombdroid out. Maximise chance of saving the earth, with additional side opportunity of causing the daleks problems too. Even if the dalek ship had escaped down a time corridor by that time, he could still have been dropped off somewhen safe.

And why, at the end, do the leave a dalek-tech robot with built in planetbuster bomb strolling around the country? THAT doesn't make any sense!



There were other little things I liked though. The daleks aggressively asking "WOULD YOU LIKE A CUP OF TEEEAAAA!" was fun.

Cheers


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## Mouseferatu (Apr 22, 2010)

Oh, no argument that there were a great many logic holes. I'm not saying it was a _great_ episode, just that I see what they were trying to do with the "talking him down" part.



Plane Sailing said:


> There were other little things I liked though. The daleks aggressively asking "WOULD YOU LIKE A CUP OF TEEEAAAA!" was fun.




Absolutely. I want that as a sound file. 

I also have to say, though, that even if there _is_ precedent for color-coded Daleks, I'm not a fan of the idea--and certainly not in the day-glo Skittle-like, plastic-looking hues they chose.


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## Plane Sailing (Apr 22, 2010)

I wasn't keen on the humpback look either.

I wish they had stuck with the Dalek from the Chris Ecclestone episode "Dalek" - that one worked brilliantly (especially with the rotating midsection).

The cynic in me wonders whether they couldn't get enough small operators for daleks, so they built them bigger so that they could get bigger people inside...


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## nerfherder (Apr 22, 2010)

Plane Sailing said:


> The cynic in me wonders whether they couldn't get enough small operators for daleks, so they built them bigger so that they could get bigger people inside...




Whereas the cynic in me thinks it's so that they can sell new dalek toys to children and Morrus


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## Mathew_Freeman (Apr 22, 2010)

Plane Sailing said:


> There were other little things I liked though. The daleks aggressively asking "WOULD YOU LIKE A CUP OF TEEEAAAA!" was fun.




I suspect there are some FANTASTIC out-takes from that scene.

Dalek: WOULD YOU LIKE A CUP OF TEA?
Scientist: No, thank you.
Dalek: OH, YOU WILL!
Scientist: No, thanks.
Dalek: COME ON, IT'S JUST A CUP OF TEA!
Scientist: I'm fine.
Dalek: JUST ONE CUP!
Scientist: No, thank you. I'm not thirsty.
Dalek: YOU WILL, YOU WILL, YOU WILL, YOU WILL, YOU WILL, YOU WILL...
Scientist: No thank you!
Dalek: HOW ABOUT A COFFEE?
Scientist: Honestly, I'm fine. I'm fine.
Dalek: OK.
_pause_
Dalek: HOW ABOUT AN ORANGE JUICE?


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## nerfherder (Apr 22, 2010)

Redrobes said:


> Oh just noticed that this Ep made a break with the previous two by being written by Mark Gatiss. Moffats back in the chair for the next two. Oh well maybe its down the script writer then.



Coincidentaly, I've just been watching Mark Gatiss in Nighty Night.


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