# Fantasy Arms Race, Round Two



## RangerWickett (Feb 6, 2003)

If you missed round one, you can see it here.  

For round two, we're going to take what we ended with in round one, run it forward several hundred years, and enter the agricultural age.

The Cresians, descended from the plainsfolk, have settled in a coastal area, on the southern edge of the continent, something akin to southern Italy in the Meditteranean.  The Cresians live in a fairly lush area, ranging through a large river delta to the coast, including several small villages and one large town.  Their largest town has grown to three thousand people, and is situated in the middle of many square miles of cultivated farmland.  Throughout the entire basin, there are probably twenty thousand people.

The religious center of these people is a temple town in the northern reaches of their land, in the middle of a wide plain where they revere the continually reincarnated avatar of the Dog God (always female).  They have gotten over their fear of fire and now they use it like any primitive culture, but they still view fire as a destructive force.  Once the current reincarnation of the Dog God gives birth to a new litter, all the male children are burned as an offering for greater fertility for the land.

The culture's focus on animalistic power has also spread to plant-life, and priests are trained to wield plant-based magic, such as crop-growth spells and woodshaping magic.  Priestesses learn the majority of animal-based magic, including recently the ability to conjure creatures from realms unknown.  Warriors are not as revered as they once were, but there is a small cult devoted to taking on animalistic aspects, and their champions gain the ability to transform into huge, savage dogs on the full moon, when the land is believed to be most fertile.  The experience of becoming a beast is said to be exilharating, but because of how dangerous these beastmen become when they have nothing to kill, now it is highly regulated, with those capable of such a transformation being locked in thickly-walled rooms during the full moon.  They are able to see the moon through an open roof, but the walls are too high for the person to escape.  Once per year, near the winter solstice, the shapeshifters go on a ritualized hunt on the full moon, turning their savage tendencies to the benefit of the people by killing enough game for dozens of people.

Only rarely have humans been killed in this ritual, and this past winter, a strange foreign man's body was brought back from the hunt.  Since the beastman could not recall the hunt, he doesn't know who the man was or where he was from, but he was somehow able to hurt the beastman before being killed.  This is the first time a champion of the warrior dog cult has been injured in a hunt, since they are normally impervious to most injuries.



In early summer, a foreign fleet lands on the southern Cresian coast, off-loading several hundred soldiers, who slaughter all the inhabitants of a fishing village and start marching toward the heartland of the Cresian delta.  They fight in organized groups of twenty men in a line, holding wooden shields and fighting with bronze swords.  They seem to have only three skilled magic-users with them, each of which is always accompanied with a half-dozen bodyguards.  They do not make up part of any of the larger formations, but instead travel quickly into smaller, fortified areas that the formations are not useful against.  Their magic-users have the unusual power that their song seems to empower their fellow warriors, making them very effective against small groups in enclosed areas, while the sheer force of numbers in the formations can handle any attempt to fight them on open terrain.

The Cresians have not been attacked by outsiders for longer than anyone's memory, so they only mount an awkward defense, fighting with barbed fishing spears made entirely out of wood, or occasionally wood-chopping axes or skinning knives made of soft metal.  Through sheer force of numbers they finally manage to stop the advance of the foreigners.  After losing about half their men and one of their magic-users, the foreigners retreat, leaving two days before the full moon.

The Cresians wonder if these foreigners will return.  How will they be better prepared if they do?


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## ajanders (Feb 6, 2003)

*Responses*

Assuming they think like "Western Man", they'll probably start by copying all the good ideas they can.

So they'll start by developing shields of their own.
Next they'll look at the swords: they may be able to reverse engineer bronze from the swords: it depends on how good their metallurgy is.  Even if they do reverse engineer it, they still need the copper and tin to make it.
Since you've described them as being on a river delta, that means generally sedimentary soil with a lot of organic components...good for farming, not, I think, so good for copper, though they can probably placer mine casseterite and smelt it for tin.  (Like in Wales.)
If they have a religious distaste for fire, I might add, it's unlikely they will be very happy with the smelting and smithing processes.  If they're being done on a regular basis, it might be that smiths, miners, and the warriors who use their products all become members of a specialized religious caste: sort of the "unpleasant necessary" caste.

Assuming geology and religion allow them to duplicate bronze, they'll probably then use it to improve the tools they know: evolutionary advancement, not revolutionary.  They'll make bronze-tipped spears and knives, using them for hunting and working as they always have, but always keeping one eye on how well they'd handle in a fight.  Not that this would be much of a challenge, mind: if your spear can stop a charging boar, one man won't be a significant problem.
But HERE's an interesting side point: what if bronze was an "evil unnatural metal" made and used by the Cresian equivalent of the untouchables to do wicked deeds like murder men, just like the "evil invaders from across the sea".
You might get a split society, one group non-metallic, peaceful, and committed to working the land with farming and husbandry while the other group mined, created weapons, and fought/hunted.
The relationships between the two types of Cresians might be well understood by both sides at first, but generations later, the knowledge might be lost, creating tension between the "twisted unnatural unproductive warriors" and the "soft foolish farmers".
Let's assume that doesn't happen, however.  The next decision would be a political one: do the Cresians prepare themselves for this to happen again, do nothing (assuming the invaders learned their lesson), or go after them?
Given their sedentary nature, I'm betting they lack the open ocean navigation skills to chase the invaders home, so they will prepare themselves with bigger fortifications, including watchtowers to see ships or invaders coming from farther off.  They'll also start a militia: there'd be limited training and no real tactics other than ambush, gang up, and take cover.

That covers the mundane stuff.  Magically, the priests will probably get together and invent the concept of magical force multiplication: they'll get their own guards and join the armies.  The next time someone tries to outnumber them, they're going to get buried in celestial badgers and war dogs.
Buffing spells will be in: when the enemy magicians enhance the prowess of their small teams of warriors, they'll be met by a champion under the influence of bull strength, cat's grace, and maybe a barkskin spell.
Somebody will start having the biggest fighters develop the Precise Shot feat, allowing them to lob sling bullets and spears into the enhanced enemies engaging the champion...hopefully allowing the Cresians to get some extra numbers into these conflicts themselves.

Conspicuously absent will be the use of the proto-lycanthropes: they don't retain enough intelligence to take orders, make plans, or even distinguish friend from foe.  If this evolved into berserker rage, somebody might start to direct it into the first army unit, the Wolf Guard.
As it is, they're just wild lycanthropes killing everything they see.  The enemy might get the surprise of their lives the first time they try to kill one, but unless they're extremely cowardly they'll need to be faced and beaten using more organized methods


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Feb 6, 2003)

First of all, I'd like to tip my hat to RangerWickett for a perfect scenario for the sequel to Arms Race I.  There is no way I could have thought of a better way to continue the conversation into more complex civilizations without making every post way too long and complicated.

I agree that the Plains people are likely to pick up a good few tactics from their adversaries.  Shields seem to me to be the most likely migration.  Bronze should be near impossible for them to reverse engineer unless they have much better knowledge of mining then your scenario implies.

But I would think that the quest for bronze would lead them to attempt to find a culture that knew about it and was either willing to teach them or had bronze smiths that were acquirable either through defection or espionage.  This would lead to greater exploration at the least and possibly both boats or some mystical or ritual means of contacting some knowing entity such as a dragon or genie.

Now, an additional effect that is certain to occur is a drastic restructuring of the society given their loss of manpower.  With several important effects:

First, they're going to develop infrastructure so they can watch their borders, negotiate, make fortification, and train militias.

Second, they're going to have to develop central organization in order to do so.  For taxes, administration, and coordination.

Third, some element of the prior society will gain a lot of power.

The priests are a likely beneficiary from principal three:  They are already pretty powerful and they were key to getting people organized enough to turn back the invaders.

If they or their clients win out then:
The infrastructure is likely to be fairly magical and conservative in nature, as they seek to regrow the population, use their own talents, and keep their people safe and unchanged.

In order to keep people safe from invaders they will probably use their druidic powers to change the country side.  The Coastline and borders will be sprinkled with magicly shaped watch tower trees, coastal villages will be surrounded by cleverly engineered marshes through which there will be hidden safe paths, and hidden strongholds will be constructed out of earth and briar works.  A communication network will be established based on homing pigeons.  When an invading army is spotted, word will be sent to all the threatened villages.  The population will then fall back to the strongholds while the militias organize to use the swamps against the adversary.

Buff, camauflage, trap, and information spells will see increased development, and orders of druids trained in wilderness maintenance and fighting will become the officers of the nation.  Military forces will be formed into orders that will enforce specialized training and division so that the druids and people won't be threatened by a unified military coup.  Fairs and religious competitions will encourage men to train in skills useful in guerrilla warfare, in the tradition of their plainsmen forebears, while a select few are then selected for the military orders.  The druids will also encourage training with combat animals, which leads to such peacetime benefits as new methods of wildlife management, beasts of burden, exotic guard beasts, new food beasts, and beasts of labor.  All on a scale unknown by most societies as the value of labor in the wake of invasion increases.

The order of the Dog and Stag will be the most independent order.  It's members will be trained for patrolling the wilderness, and not only will they be excellent scouts but they will also keep the wilderness safe by identifying and eliminating wild threats.  The Druids feel that they will not disturb the society as they spend so much time away from it, though they maintain strong ties as hunters and heroes.  They develop their own mystic traditions in order to promote internal unity.  In times of conflict they will be the first alert and the rank and file will constantly harrass and confuse the enemy.  They will also support the druid lead guerrilla militias, and make heavy use of animal companions.

The order of the Wolf and Bear will be intimately tied to the druids.  They will spend peacetime as Temple guards and peacekeepers, and will be trained to use what heavy equipment the druids allow and rely on magical support in combat.  In the event of invasion, they will be the organizers of stronghold defense and the core of any large military formations that the druids must form.   This order will attempt to learn from and use the secrets of the blessed dog warriors.  At once they become handlers of the lycanthropes learning how to use their fits to harass enemies at night and over long ranges, and they gain transformational techniques themselves, gaining the ability to rage.  They will be trained to fight alongside animals, but only while the druids they revere control them.

The society as a whole becomes more xenophobic and anti-technological, viewing metal weapons with great distrust, but the new levels of prosperity brought by their greater understanding of nature and use of animals combines with the Druid desire to see what other nations might be a threat to create an order of merchants/ explorers/diplomats.  These individuals are kept largely ignorant of the druids magical techniques in order to prevent military secrets from leaking, but they become highly skilled in travel, espionage, and trade.  Their relationship with the Druids becomes very close as the Druids become the major supporters of their venture in order to protect the people from heavy taxation.  Some druids even participate in this venture resulting in a great deal of cross training and friendship, though also a certain amount of friendly tension in situations where command is in question.  Both druids and traders are careful to show the benefit from these ventures to the populace in limited ways.  They want them to benefit, but do not want them to develop a spirit of materialist greed and individualism that would lead to both increased competition and societal breakdown.  In fact the countryside becomes rife with hidden structures as the traders seek to enjoy their wealth in secret and the druids use the often abandoned strongholds as settings for magical experimentation, working to limit the results of failures and maximize the benefits of successes for the defense of the people.  Not too mention the secret outposts of the Dog order and the 'holds' in which the Wolf order keep their dog soldiers and practice their rage techniques.  

To outsiders the nation appears to be a sort of Shangri-La in which the people live in harmony with nature, practice fabulous games, and seem largely untroubled by grim professions.  At the same time, they will gain the distinct impression that all is not what it seems and that there are places and answers to which they are not welcome.

Another scenario would be for the military side of society to gain power as the druids lose prestige for not stopping the invasion earlier.  No need to go into as much detail, but the character of the society itself changes as they become far more technological looking to craft things without as much reliance on druid mysteries and to capitalize on what they learned from the invaders.  Everyone spends time in the militia, villages are walled and connected by broad roads, fortresses appear in which the military elite are housed and trained.  Magic focuses on gaining concrete and long term advantages.  As the expense grows the society becomes actively expansionistic.  Looking to loot and raid.  At first they target local threats such as unfriendly dragons and monsters with their most elite and changed heroes.  After they learnd about metal they force local groups of goblinoids to mine for them.  And they begin to look for targets that will be less threatening to their commanders and hold larger and more human profits.  

The society becomes very spartan and the church limits itself to very prestigious oracular pronouncements.  Learning a great deal about divination, summoning, and spell and item creation.  Turning increasingly arcane and 'scientific.'

I prefer the first option, but find the contrasting evolutions interesting.


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## Tonguez (Feb 6, 2003)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> *They fight in organized groups of twenty men in a line, holding wooden shields and fighting with bronze swords.  They seem to have only three skilled magic-users with them, each of which is always accompanied with a half-dozen bodyguards.  They do not make up part of any of the larger formations, but instead travel quickly into smaller, fortified areas that the formations are not useful against.  Their magic-users have the unusual power that their song seems to empower their fellow warriors, making them very effective against small groups in enclosed areas, while the sheer force of numbers in the formations can handle any attempt to fight them on open terrain. *




The Foreigners fight in small unit formations with the magic users using Buff spells. 

The obvious answer then is to break the formations so that the units are scattered and the break through and attack the Magic users!

First the Cresians use their terrain to advantage especially the large Delta area - which implies soft marshy ground. This area becomes a place of refuge for to which much of the non-combatant population can retreat in case of attack. As Dr Starngemonkey has suggested the Druids use their abilities to turn the Swamp into both a refuge for the Cresians and a vast death trap for Invaders. Besides the natural dangers of boggy uneven ground and quicksand are also various tanglevines,  traps and of course Rangers armed with bows. The Delta itself is rich with foodstuffs and obviously water so seige isn't too much of an issue.

*On the Combat side*: 

On a mundane level the Cresian warriors develop guerilla tactics, based on fast moving skirmish units. They do not face the Invaders on the open battle feild but instead strike from cover,  - they will rise up from the swamp or run  amidst the trees, often during the night and generally attack when the Invaders least expect it. Barbarians are the favoured Class (increase speed and rage enhancement it offers is an advantage) followed by Ranger

When forced to face the Invading armys' units directly the Cresian druids and mages use their summoning abilities to summon monsters into the midst of the enemy units with the singular purpose of cause them to break and scatter - at which point the barbarian warriors move in against the demoralised foe. Archers and Spear throwers are probably another good tactic and are used to pick off routed enemy soldiers. With all that Rage, summoned Monsters and Tetesterone around terror tactics become the rule in Cresian warfare. They stick to fast, mobile and savage skirmishers rather than Unit-formation tactics.

Against the Magicuser encampments the Cresians send small elite forces (Leveled Adventurers) and often include a Dog Warrior (Lycanthorp) or two and a Druid 'handler'.  The single task of these elite groups is to kill the Singer (Bard - I assume) which means breaking through the bodyguard to reach her.


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## s/LaSH (Feb 6, 2003)

There are two tactics that the Cresians should pursue. (Well, they might not, but then they'd die horribly later on.)

The first tactic is to embrace military technology. To boot:
- Develop formations to meet the enemy on equal ground.
- Develop shields.
- As a diversion, they've always been a spear-oriented people, right? To actively improve upon formation tactics, they can employ long spears either from behind the front row, or from the front row itself. Spears like this created the tank of the antique world, the Spartan Tortoise - it worked.
- Possibly embrace bronze technology, IF they can figure it out, and IF they don't have major qualms with that use of fire.
- Set loose the dogs of war. Basically, train the Beastmen in the arts of stealth and subterfuge, and have them hang out in the wilderness behind enemy lines. When the moon turns, the men turn too. (You have to trust them to report to a moonwell cell if they're not under attack, however.)
- Fortify their villages and towns. At this tech level, grand Babylon-style walls are completely out of the question, but moats (using abundant available moisture) and fairly impressive mud brick walls are quite possible. (They have the tech to build impressive temples and moonwell cells, so they can definitely build big, thick walls.)
- Levy a militia or introduce conscription. If every able-bodied man (possibly women too, if infant mortality isn't high - basically, you want to sustain your population) can poke with a spear (or swing a reverse-engineered sword), invaders suddenly look less scary. A standing militia in every town is also a good idea, and a rich river delta is fertile enough to avoid the food shortage you might otherwise incur.
- Communication is important. If the enemy returns, they will do so in force and probably wipe out an entire village; one local militia could never stop them, so a system is required to quickly summon reinforcements in large numbers. As a result, signal fires, runners, or messenger canoes will very likely be developed. If bronze is reverse-engineered, a heliograph could be developed (big shiney mirrors). If they have enough time, the Cresians could even construct proper roads and bridges through the delta, or at least clear wide paths through any thick growth.
- Tame horses (if available; might also use deer or cattle, but even without being bred for captivity for millenia, they're not the first choice) to carry messengers. Horses are fast, and have great endurance - something hunters would know about. This is no guarantee that the Cresians would develop cavalry any time soon, however; mounts would probably be quite rare, perhaps two to the village.
- Coastal patrols. Whether this is in the form of fishing ships, guard posts, or a full-fledged navy depends on how much wood is available. You can patrol the coast in boats made of rushes, but you can't have a long-range strike force unless you have certain types of wood.
- Get control of wood! There are forests nearby, especially in a world without civilised despoilment. Settlements to acquire wood would allow the construction of long-range boats, perhaps to seek out their enemies first. The added benefits include the development of superhot fires using coke, but that's not necessarily an advantage until they discover high-level metals that need smelting (centuries off yet, of course). You can also build nice scaffolding, houses that don't require huge numbers of bricks or rushes, and a great number of useful wooden artifacts like towers and fences.

The second tactic is to embrace magical power. To boot:
- With control over animals and plants, druids can turn the environment against their enemy. Entangling spells and animal companions become commonplace, and every village has at least one pair of priest/priestess who can use plants and animals against their enemies.
- More priests and priestesses are needed. The option of convents and monastaries arises, not as places of retreat but as places of intense training.
- To use these advantages, your terrain has to be broken. Actively letting outlying fields or certain 'buffer' areas grow out of control would create areas where entanglement would be of maximum effectiveness. For bonus points, they start cultivating roses or brambles in these areas. Male priests become associated with the rose.
- With a codified presence in each village, but with very little to do when not being invaded, the priestesses start helping with the fields. Tame animals can improve productivity a great amount. Imagine if the oxen pull their plows of their own will...
- The increased productivity from this frees villagers for other pursuits... this could be the catalyst needed to get large numbers of holy people into training. In addition, arts would become more developed and a faster pace of technology might be achieved as people have more time on their hands to avoid their lot.
- Religion, once merely important, becomes an overwhelming force in Cresia. Everyone knows a priest and priestess, and sees them patrolling every day with horrible beasts following them around. The power of religion is clearly cemented.
- As a slighter consequence, the separation of man and woman might become more pronounced, but not in an "I'm better" kind of way; the priests have different talents, and this could be recognised.
- Disease, fairly common in low, wet terrain, would be lessened because of the availability of curing magics. I don't think it could be stopped, however, and the likeliest scenario for an outbreak of malaria or what have you is that the priest and priestess would be found the only ones alive in a village full of dead people, having saved themselves first.
- Meanwhile, back in the main temple, more powerful magics are developed. Planar binding, while extraordinarily powerful, might be developed as a way of calling super soldiers from beyond. If that's beyond their grasp, the high priests and priestesses still discover fresh summons and maybe figure out the basis of where these creatures are coming from. Planar theory is born.
- Barkskin, Heat Metal, Chill Metal, Summon Swarm... these become commonly known spells.
- More powerful spells are created. Call Lightning and various forms of weather manipulation (because ships are vulnerable to inclement weather) become known to the elite casters. IF they can get over their aversion, there are a good number of fire spells that druids can acquire (and druids seem to be the order of the day around Cresia).
- The possibility of contacting more deities is distinct. Some of them may be hostile! Others may give gifts, but deities are unpredictable and the only thing I can think of that's fairly certain is bronze... or iron. Shudder.

That said, there are potentials for schism in the ranks of the Cresians.
- If bronze becomes prevalent, the firing process could well cause a minority to break off and declare themselves independant. Whether that's the magic-users or the metal-users is unknown. If this schism occurs, both groups will hate each other for being (a) sacreligious or (b) stupid and stuck in the past.
- If fire spells become prevalent, the minority that can cast them may become outcasts. A society of powerful casters that can throw fire at you goes off into the wilderness, and creates their own little temple. Perhaps they discover a fire deity or elementals... either way, they're a mysterious bunch of evil people in the wilderness as far as the common Cresian is concerned, but elementals... that's an interesting idea.
- If the Cresians discover new gods and don't adopt them smoothly or ignore them outright, their ranks could split in several ways. First, they could split into a monotheistic camp (the Dog God) and a polytheistic camp (all known gods, possibly excluding the Dog or casting it in an evil role). Or, they could split into a whole bunch of monotheistic sects, all proclaiming that they've got the One True God on their side. Lastly, they could have a minor schism and reshape society into a number of castes, each with its own god, all under some Head God (probably the Dog); a religious caste system creates an interesting society, where the job you have shapes your religion and your entire outlook on life.
- If the warriors and the priests find themselves at loggerheads, perhaps arguing over who should get _all_ the resources behind them, not just a half share, then you split Cresia into the priests and the warriors, and each go their separate ways. You have bramble-ringed villages belonging to the priests, and mud-brick-walled villages belonging to the warriors.

So there's my thoughts. I just like the idea of male priests wandering around under the sign of the Rose; I think that's incredibly cool, but maybe that's just me.


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Feb 6, 2003)

I don't know if I mentioned these two things earlier, but...

...entangle and carrier pigeons could not be overemphasized.  The animal messenger spell will work wonders in a pinch, but actually domesticating carrier pigeons, particularly with the hefty bonuses for training from rangers and druids, will make their society a wonder of communication.  And entangle is a death knell to group formations.

The other prominent druid spell would be swarm spells and others that target and disrupt enemy spell casters over a long period of time and at a distance.

Technologically, I wonder how close the Ceracians are to an Atlatl or other similar form of spear thrower.  Missile weapons seem to suit them.  The Seneca in Florida developed very nice longbows early on.

The issue we haven't dealt with, however, is how the tactics of the invaders may change should they invade again.  I think it much more likely that they would develop new techniques using spear formations than the plains people would.  Afterall, they're used to training people to fight in formation and they've just had a lesson in the effectiveness of the spear.

Depending on how much information got back to their homeland: I would guess that the invaders would start to incorporate missile weapons into their formations.  Develop tactics for identifying and taking out enemy spell casters.  Scrying and defensive magics.  Develop new raiding and support tactics from off of their ships to exploit their naval advantage.

And if anyone got back to the homeland with word of the way the plains people feel about fire, I would predict that they would use of the smelting brilliance to come up with something terribly nasty to use against them.  

And they would definitely start developing the bardic advantage.  Most basically I see them using bard songs to coordinate their formations.  Being able to take musical commands on a unit by unit basis is an important key to using close formation effectively on bad ground and against a mobile enemy.  The invaders are already half way there.


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## F5 (Feb 6, 2003)

I really like s/lash's idea of the Priests of the Rose...with rows and rows of wild roses throughout the countryside to use to Entangle approaching formations.  Major roads could be lined with rose bushes, as well, so that troop transport could be effectively disrupted by walls of brambles springing up in front of and behind enemy movements, pinning them in place while priests summon wolves, badgers and bears in their midst.

One thing that will bother the priests of the Cresians is their lack of knowlege, and they will devote some of their energy towards that end.  They have no idea who these people are, or where they came from.  They suspect that the attack is related to the stranger who was brought back by their beastman hunters last winter, but don't know for sure.  Scouts on-land can find nothing useful about their enemies.  
Their high priest secludes himself in contemplation, praying the dog-god for guidance, and as he stares into the deep pools of their temple, a vision appears to him of ships on not-so-distant seas, and scrying is born.  Or is that too advanced at this point?  Maybe they come up with some lesser kind of divination? 
Either way, combined with the idea of trained carrier pigeons, even minor divinations will enhance their reconnaisance and organizational abilities a lot.  And the invaders, having faced the disorganized, chaotic Cresians in their first invasion, will not be prepared for a well-co-ordinated defense if they return. 

The Cresians make note of the effects of their enemies' Songmasters, but fail in their attempts to duplicate them.  Instead, they look for ways to disrupt them.  Again, the Dog God answers, giving the avatars the ability to Howl, deafening a single opponent within earshot (think of it like a blindness/deafness spell, with extra flavor).  As the Howling Priestesses deafen the enemy bards and warriors, they can't hear the songs and their advantage is lost.

A neat side note...there's an interesting male/female dichotomy starting up in the Cresian society.  The aggressive, warlike Dog God is associated with the female (all the avatars are female), while the nurturing, defensive agriculture aspects of their religion are going over to the male (the Rose Priests).  I could see their pantheon developing into two gods; Wolf-mother and Field-Father.  Kind of the reverse of how it "usually" goes.

PS- Kahuna Burger, I totally agreed with your last post in the first thread, about the presense of magic going a long way towards easing the usual causes of tension between two groups.  I was only kiddin' about the "peace is for wussies" stuff...  I thought I'd respond here rather than dredging up the old thread to do it.


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## F5 (Feb 6, 2003)

Hey, RangerWickett...Should we speculate on what the Invaders might be doing, or are we just gonna focus on the Cresians?


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## Zaruthustran (Feb 6, 2003)

Entangle is a great spell, but it has flaws:

1. It affects everyone in an area, friend and foe.
2. It does nothing to prevent missile fire, and indeed, gives cover to those within.
3. It does not stop spellcasting.

Also, the invaders have both big blocks of infantry *and* mobile strike forces consisting of a mage and bodyguard team. Entangle won't be able to completely shut down the entire force, and the bodyguard teams are mobile enough to escape destruction if the main infantry blocks are caught.

So... invader counter-strategies:

1. Kill the Cresian druids. Magic Missile is perfect for this, since Druids doen't have access to Shield.
2. Arm the infantry with javelins. Javelins are bronze-age tech, and can be used with a shield. Even entangled troops are dangerous if they have Javelins.
3. Retreat and fortify during the full moon. The Invaders have already shown awareness of the lycanthropes--they retreated two days before the full moon. Sure, RW didn't say if they retreated due to losses or knowledge, but let's assume that the "foreigner" that was killed by the wolf-man was a member of the "invader" culture. So, knowing the power of werewolves, the Invaders go on the defensive during the (3?) days of the full moon. Magic Missile, Burning Hands, and Magic Weapon (in 3E)  can all hurt lycanthropes.
4. Travel by boat whenever possible. Entangle doesn't work in open water. But marshy areas and long weeds may still pose a problem.

-z


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## Tonguez (Feb 6, 2003)

Zaruthustran said:
			
		

> *Entangle is a great spell, but it has flaws:
> 
> 1. It affects everyone in an area, friend and foe.
> 2. It does nothing to prevent missile fire, and indeed, gives cover to those within.
> 3. It does not stop spellcasting.*




While this is all true I'm sure that the Cresians will know this and their tactics will develop to incorporate it. To wit the Cresians will stay out of the range of the entangling roses and instead attack using either missile fire (long bow) or summoned monsters.

If as I suggested before the Cresians favour skirmish units rather than formation-units then they are less vunerable to things like entangle and other 'area effects'



> *Also, the invaders have both big blocks of infantry *and* mobile strike forces consisting of a mage and bodyguard team. Entangle won't be able to completely shut down the entire force, and the bodyguard teams are mobile enough to escape destruction if the main infantry blocks are caught.*




I personally didn't get the impression that these 'Singer-Bodyguard units' were 'mobile'. It says they head straight for fortified areas implying that their tactics are to act defensively and rely on walls for protection. Ergo they would be more vunerable when travelling/on open ground.
It may well be however that they change from this fortification mode to a more mobile unit mode after facing the Cresians.



> *1. Kill the Cresian druids. Magic Missile is perfect for this, since Druids doen't have access to Shield.
> 2. Arm the infantry with javelins. Javelins are bronze-age tech, and can be used with a shield. Even entangled troops are dangerous if they have Javelins.
> 3. Retreat and fortify during the full moon. The Invaders have already shown awareness of the lycanthropes--they retreated two days before the full moon. Sure, RW didn't say if they retreated due to losses or knowledge, but let's assume that the "foreigner" that was killed by the wolf-man was a member of the "invader" culture. So, knowing the power of werewolves, the Invaders go on the defensive during the (3?) days of the full moon. Magic Missile, Burning Hands, and Magic Weapon (in 3E)  can all hurt lycanthropes.*




Idea 1 and 2 are valid and imho highly likely. However 3 although likely is not going to be entirely effective, simply because it takes time to retreat and fortify during which the Dog Warriors and Cresian Beserkers can harrass and obliterate the invaders before they escape. 
I also think the assumption that the Invaders retreated because they knew about the Dog Warriors is debatable (but fair). RW said the Cresians had mounted a defense and the Invaders had left 2 days prior to the full moon - my assumption would be that becuase of this the Dog Warriors will be a major shock to them when and if they return. 



> *4. Travel by boat whenever possible. Entangle doesn't work in open water. But marshy areas and long weeds may still pose a problem.-z *




I can see Druids beveloping methods to use entangle on the open sea - eg kelp entangling rudders. 
The other 'naval development' which the Cresians have access to is Druids polymorphed into Sharks/Whales/Giant Squid etc (not to mention Aquatic Monsters) and the summoning of the same.

So the Invader fleet makes for open sea but find themselves floundering when kelp entngles their rudders and ties them all together. The Cresians then summon a Celestial Orca who crashes their the hulls of the Invader ships sinking them and allowing the summoned sharks to feed...


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## RangerWickett (Feb 6, 2003)

Ooh, this is cool.  You guys are rocking with these ideas.  Let's see, as referee, I'll decide a few things.


The Cresians do not develop metallurgy.  They don't do much mining yet, and that's just for things like gold for temples, or other light metals that can be hammered into shape pretty easily (forgive me; I'm not a historian).  So they won't develop bronze.
The foreigners will return, and we'll get to their tactics in a sec.  Their next attack comes in a matter of a few months, toward the middle of Autumn.
We're not going to have any cultural divides quite yet.  The Cresians's dislike of fire is enough to keep them from using it widely as a weapon, but not enough to have a schism over its usage.
Both sides have bows, but historically bows weren't used much as weapons until much later in history.  They were usually used for hunting, or so I understand it.
To clarify, the ships of the invaders are rowed, not wind-driven, so they can't have come from very far away.[/list=1] 

I too like the nifty society we're coming up with here.  You should all feel free to use it yourselves, as we develop more information about it.  The hillfolk won't factor directly into this scenario, though they are still around somewhere, probably more primitive than the Cresians are.

*The Return of the Invaders*
On the 4th day after the full moon, in the 10th month, a large cluster of ships, enough to hold a thousand men, is spotted coming in from the south-west.  A brave priest of the Field Father rides with a group of warriors in a fishing boat to meet the fleet, and from a close distance he uses his magic to shape a hole in the bottom of a boat, rendering it useless and killing about half of its 50 crewmen.  Another ship rides up beside the Cresian boat, and after a brief fight all the Cresians are killed.

The plan created by the priestesses at the high temple gives the coastal village folk the direction to avoid being slaughtered.  Elderly, mothers, and children flee inland along well-beaten trails, while warriors form up ranks and prepare for their first ever battle in formation.  Protected with shields and armed with spears and knives, several different Cresian coastal militias wait near their villages.  No single unit has even 100 men, but each group has a few magic-users to assist them.

As the Cresian fleet lands on the coast, devoted field priests wait in cabins built in the boughs of the trees nearest the coast (the newly planted trees intended specifically for guard towers are years away from being large enough).  The priests rush to be close enough to use their magic, which causes the coastal reeds and sea grass to entangle the disembarking crew and even stop a few ships before they can quite reach shore.  Then assisting priestesses summon water snakes (to fight in the water) and wolves (to fight on the shore).

The plan is then for the priests to take refuge again in the tree forts, and fight to the end with what warriors they have with them, but many priests are caught by surprise when magic-users among the foreigners create intense, invisible thunderbolts, which knock over priests and briefly stun them.  A few priests manage to escape, but most that ventured out to try and slow the invasion's advance are caught and killed.  Without magical assistance, the tree forts cannot defend themselves well, and they are quickly burned down.

As each group of foreigners advances inland to the first villages, they see the lines of Cresian soldiers standing on flat plains.  The foreigners sometimes charge, sometimes advance slowly, but always their formations are disrupted by entanglement spells and creatures summoned behind their flanks.  While their enemies are in disarray, the Cresians attack.  Each fight goes differently, but overall the Cresians lose, but only after trading favorably with enemy soldiers.  The surviving Cresians fall back further inland, and the foreigners make camp in the different villages they took control of.

However, after a few more days, being hit by quick moving groups that strike with summoned monsters and then flee, the invaders decide to send in their own 'strike teams' with bards and warriors, but the newly trained wolf maidens use the blessing of howling magic to deafen enemy soldiers, and ruin the enemy magic.  The invaders eventually realize that they're again losing too many men, so they retreat again, setting fire to everything as they leave.



I'll post more tomorrow, but that's the end of round two, part two.  The invaders go by the names of the Jonga, and they come from a sea-faring nation on an island to the west.  For the next part of this round, you must decide on how the Jonga will retaliate.  They have few clerics and no druids, but bards and wizards are their specialty.


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## Sixchan (Feb 6, 2003)

After much planning, the Jonga come up with a plan.  After some searching, they find a lightly wooded area not too far inside the territory still held by the Cresians.  Under cover of darkness, they move into that area.  Despite the dark, the Cresians still notice them, of course, but any battles would be foolish in so little light.
As morning comes, the Cresians prepare for a large battle, preparing Entanglements and summoning spells that have been so successful before. They approach the light woods, and get ready.  But just before they attack, the Jonga cast _Web_ spells in the forest, trapping the Cresians in a deadly trap.  The Jongan bards and clerics then cast _Silence_ on the Cresian spellcasters.  Their spells gone, and their warriors trapped, the Cresians are brutally slaughtered in this battle, at least.  And if there were no survivors, this same tactic could be pulled off more than a few times before the Cresians figure it out.


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## F5 (Feb 6, 2003)

This is Fun! 

The Jonga fall back to their island kingdom, nursing their wounds.  They've never faced a foe like the Cresians before, but ever since their crown price was killed by the Cresians' demon-wolves,  they have vowed to conquer this dangerous people. 
(It's a bit of creative license, I know, but it explains the foriegners' body that was brought back by the Cresian hunting party).
They have always brought their bards along to inspire their warriors in battle, but for this enemy they try something new.  Instead of using their magic to effect their own troops, they try using the songs on their enemy.  With their songs, they reach out to the Cresians' minds, confusing them as to who is friend and who is foe, and whipping their primal wolf-natures into a frenzy (call it Charm and Suggestion-type spells).  Their own men are deafened by the priestess' howling, so they are unaffected.  Chaos breaks out in the Cresian ranks, as they begin fighting amongst themselves.

The Jonga's other advantage over the Cresians is their greater numbers, so their mages find a way to make their numbers seem even greater.  They weave new troops out of shadow and illusion, and move them in along with their real troops.  These illusionary legions can't actually inflict any damage on the Cresians, but they draw their attention and their spells, and by the time they realize the deception, their forces are already split, and the real Jonga strike.


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## ajanders (Feb 7, 2003)

*Jongan Attack!*

One major difference between the Jongan's and the Cresian's is in the way the cast spells.  The Cresians recieve whatever gifts the Dog-mother and Field father give them: they are cleric/druid types who don't create spells, they get favors.
The Jongan wizards, however, can research anything they want.  So the first thing they'll likely do is start reverse-engineering any interesting magic effect that's been used on them, which would be the summoning spells.
Figure any ship coming near the Cresians now is going to bring along the capability to summon something that either swims or flies to intercept even the smallest of boats.
After that, they'll go with what they know has worked well twice: fire.  They'll develop offensive fire spells that can work at range and flaming enhancements for their weapons: even temporary ones.  They might begin to summon their own fire elementals, even.
They'll develop magical protections for their mundane troops like resist fire spells: also spells that allow one to breathe, see, and fight comfortably in the smoky enviroment near a large tactical fire.
Eventually, they'll start working on magic to provide at least limited control of fire directly, causing it to burn in a direction they desire...or at least not burn in the direction they desire.
Bards will start working on their new countersong power, using that to counter howling magic where possible.

On a mundane level, since they're aware that battle against the Cresians means their formations may be easily disrupted, they'll likely start equipping their soldiers in such a way that they can fight as individuals...or much smaller formations.  Their army might start to modularize in the following fashion:
*Two soldiers make a pair, not expected to do much but stand back to back and try to hold their ground, attacking anything that comes near them.
*Two pairs make a post: one pair stands in close combat and attacks anything that comes near, one pair uses javelins or missile weapons to harass or interdict local terrain.
*Two posts make  a squad, competent to actually attack a small objective.
etc, etc, etc.

The Jongans will also make sure their weapons can be used against plants as readily as people, eschewing blunt or stabbing weapons for something with a good sharp cutting edge.  Gone are the maces and copied spears, back come the swords and the "cutting edge" of new weapon technology, axes.  Personal body armor will be developed to an even higher standpoint than it was already: look for bronze breastplates, bracers, and greaves, but designed to protect the back as much as the front.

Making a dispersible modular army with flexible formations will place a formidable strain on the Jongan command structure, which is already deaf from the Howling magic.
The Jongans will either have to ensure that every soldier knows the battle plan two levels up so they can operate on their own or get some magically enhanced communication.  Magical telepathy might be too powerful, but the message spell is likely to be invented.
But the mundane solution of informing the soldiers of the plan is likely to be simpler to do, since the wizards are busy reverse-engineering summonings already.

If their geology allows it, they might move along the metallurgy track, starting to use iron or steel.
Given that they smelt and have formidable intellectual specialists, they might start developing alchemy, with a heavy emphasis on incindiaries and defoliants.

When they attack, they'll take advantage of their sea power to land wherever they want: like a nice sandy plant-free beach.  If they can't find one, they might take their new fire spells and make one.  Or two.  Or half-a-dozen, giving them lots of choices.


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## Tonguez (Feb 7, 2003)

*Re: Jongan Attack!*



			
				ajanders said:
			
		

> **Two soldiers make a pair, not expected to do much but stand back to back and try to hold their ground, attacking anything that comes near them.*




The Story of _Lone Wolf and Cub_ feature an episode in which a pair of Ninja tried to defeat itto Ogami. They were trained to work as a pair by which one of the pair would act as decoy and in fact allow himself to be killed at which point his partner would leap over him and kill their victim.

That tactic may be a bit too drastic for the Jonga but they idea of a pair is cool.

In fact I think ajanders come up with a perfect profile of likely Jonga tactics from its modular squads through to its fire-based magics.

So I wont add anything else until we get to the next turn

(ooc consider this a baump too)


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Feb 7, 2003)

*The Big Plan*

This is lots of fun!

I would point out that bows do see heavy use in some cultures very early in history.  Notably in India and China, but there are many others.

I can't help but think that the Cressians are kind of doomed.  I had hoped they would get more time to prepare, reform, and regrow.  They must have lost a significant portion of their magical might, though the ones that remain will be pretty dang tough and presumbably the gods will start raising up priests.  The massive fires are going to make the whole culture crazy.  Maybe next time they will play their magic hand a little more conservatively.

Hmm, well the Jonga have learned that the Cressians are very magic reliant and becoming more organized and guerrilla patterned, but that they still have superiority in the field and sea and the use of fire, as well as superior arms.  

There's no way they can develop whole new weapon industries given their time frame.

'Technologically' I see them working to develop effective alchemical tricks: fire and smoke pots and horrible scents to use against enemy animals, but mostly I think they will work to retrain their men and focus on magic: summoning and fire spells will be a big deal for them, but also illusion, detection, and long range communication spells. 

The first thing I see them developing is skirmishers.  They are taking unnecessary casualties from not giving their shock formations protection until they are in combat.  The next time they deploy their troops they will use a well developed skirmish line to disrupt the inferior Cressian formations, draw out and target magic users, absorb berserkers, and generally allow their formations to get closer to the enemy before being hit.  

These men wil be lightly armed and armored, trained to run, fight in dispersed formation, use terrain, make heavy use of missile weapons, firepots, and smoke screens and will probably count more than a few arcane spell casters of minor ability but unusual toughness in their ranks.  This would be where the offensively minded bards would increasingly find service.

They will also work to develop scouts/commandoes.  I don't think there is any way they can develop really effective wilderness troops, but they can train people who are good at stealth, observation, communication, speed and evasion, dirty fighting, espionage, and basic pioneering.  

The scouts will be in charge of scaring out ambushes for marching heavy formations at the very least and for creating deep defensive zones for encampments, but I have other plans for them as we shall see.

Most importantly, the Junga develop a Big Plan:

The BP goes as follows:

Realizing that they suffered from an overprepared enemy in the last venture and will have to use a lot of green troops, the Junga decide not to underestimate the Crecians again.

Using their newly trained light troops, new knowldege of the enemy, the cover of darkness, and the now devastated Crecian coastline, the Junga plan to send small teams of vicious troops and their best combat veteran spell casters into the Crecian nation ahead of the next invasion.

The first few will be sent in from insertion points lying well away from the old battlelines and be equipped with the most gifted bards.  They will sneak in months in advance and sound out the Crecian defenses while maintaining a very low profile.  The ones with the best bards will question charmed individuals using knowledge of the language from prisoners of the second invasion.

With this information, a much larger group of small forces will be inserted into Crecia a short time before the actual invasion and use lots of illusion magic to disguise their presence.  This force will have three tasks:

1.) To disrupt coastal defenses immediately before the invasion.

2.) To impede the Crecians' ability to organize effectively: sink boats, ruin food stores, assassinate officers, and use what they know of the local religion and culture to frighten and discourage the enemy, but not in such a way as to make it impossible for them to form an army.

3.) Identify and acquire soft targets: In particular the Junga will want to know where the population is dissapearing to, they do not want to be without hostages this time around, and where supply caches are located.

Three invasion forces will be created

The first invasion force will make some use of holes in the coastal defenses to land without confusion or delay, but immediately works to goad the Crecians into a field battle by capturing several villages worth of people and threatening to burn valuable areas.  Their mages use their most frightening and horrifying spells on non-military targets.  They will also attempt to disguise their true numbers in order to appear more vunerable.

The second invasion force will be an engineering force, landing when fighting has died down, and immediately working to build fortified camps, secure supply routes, kill zones, prison camps, watch towers, and other artifacts to lessen the ability of guerrillas to operate against the Junga army.

The third invasion will be a reserve force prepared to operate out of the ships in order to flank the enemy, they will be equipped with many veterans and heavy troops.

The initial Junga strategy is to lure as many of the Crecians as possible into a pitched battle against their first force.  The Jungans then use their reserve force to force the Crecians to fight on two fronts if possible, but otherwise to simply double their numbers suddenly.

As soon as the main Crecian battle force has been destroyed the Jungans will work to quickly garrison as many villages and strong points as possible.

Whenever possible they will capture Crecians, use bards to convert the population, and place their own 'priests' into the old temples who will institute familiar but improved rituals.  Priest of the old order will be 'found' and destroyed in the most humiliating manner possible. Information and movement will be tightly controlled.

This will only be in the area they determine they can control and reinforce properly, and with those civilians they determine to be cooperative.  These areas will be promised a new life under the occupiers if they behave.

The rest will be taken to the main army as it uses them as a human wall in its march to destroy the main temple.  Once this is done, they retreat to the control zone, and seperate into a reserve force to deal with any new or vulnerable Crecian threats and a force dedicated to preparing the land for long term colonization.

Once things have calmed down, they plan to enslave the rest of the population and create a colony for veterans of the war and the surviving families of fallen from the first and second war.

Their new colony will be protected by a ring of artificially created barren land and fortified outposts through which their patrols can move easily and across which their wizards can project power.  Any hint of an organized Crecian army brings swift retaliation.  Small tame villages of Crecians are kept as productive hostages, and they often raid the interior for slaves.

The Junga never trust the forest or swamp in their new land, becoming aggressive clear cutters and relying heavily on the sea for sustenance.  Their main export to the mother country becomes Crecian slaves and exotic animals.

The Crecians could beat this plan, but if they don't then what remains retreats into the interior and becomes very disorganized for a time, but also becomes even more rooted in the wilderness and learn even stronger techniques of stealthiness and warfare with light weapons but strong arms.  They effectively bide their time, as the Junga become ever more confident.


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## F5 (Feb 7, 2003)

Dr. Strangemonkey, remind me never to declare war on you...

Another thing that occurs to me:  many of the Cresian tactics involved Entangles.  Part of the role of the expeditionary scout parties will be to put themselves in place in the interior of the Cresian lands for the actual invasion, and when the main body of the Jungan army is ready to move in they use their fire spells and firebombs to torch the undergrowth.  The resulting massive forest fires cause three things:

1) No rose brambles to trip up their formations

2) No tree cover for the Cresians' hit-and-run guerrilias

3) The fire-hating Cresians' morale will be hurt by the fires, and their forces will be split between fighting off the invasion, and fighting the fires.  The Cresians may also find themselves cut off from erstwhile reinforcements by huge walls of fire (a trick that the Jungan fire mages make careful note of.  "Hmm...'Wall of Fire'.  I like the sound of that.")


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## Tonguez (Feb 7, 2003)

F5 said:
			
		

> *Dr. Strangemonkey, remind me never to declare war on you...
> *




I must agree F5 the Dr.'s scenario was just horrible and shockingly brilliant in its execution.

However I do think we are assuming that the Cresians will remain much more passive than they really are, especially consioering that this is the third invasion attempt they've had to face. RW is it perhaps time for Round 3 The Cresian response?

The two things I think we have neglected so far is 
a. The Plainsfolk have a nomadic heritage and can withdraw to the hills enmass (refugees maybe but live refugees nonetheless) and with Druids, Clerics and Ranger making up a large part of the population food and health shouldn't be an issue
b. The Cresians should IMHO go on the offensive and instead of waiting for the battle to come actually make a preemptive strike against the Jonga homeland. Druids have access to weather control that will decimate the Jonga naval fleet and even destroy their structures  (although the Hurricaine needed might be too high level - except that these are desperate times) ...


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Feb 7, 2003)

I've been trying to think of what the Cressians might do in between the second and third invasions.

Their guerrilla strategy worked very well for them last time, but they lost a lot people in the first pitched battle and much of their coastland and delta has been pretty fire devastated.

If I were them, I would probably move many of the population centers away from the coastline and reinforce my strongholds.

In the devastated land, the remaining, but more powerful, priests of the field god would use plant growth to reconstruct and reengineer the delta.  Lots of secret trails, canals, pits, and briar patches combined with regular dead breaks to limit the spread of fire and obstructions in the waterways to make all but the smallest ships moving around impossible.  Probably use similar techniques to rough up the coastline.  They may also trap villages that the Junga occupied in their last invasion.

The new coastal defenses will probably consist of strong points in isolated areas with the watch towers being built to be easily evacuated.

The best thing they could do, however, is try to find allies.  With their long communications with beasts the concept of going out and making some arrangement with a giant or dragon might not be that foriegn to them.

Even if they can't however, I would have the Cressians planning to delay the Junga in the Delta, but to surprise them on the plains.

Most plains areas are riddled with irregularities in the terrain, that only the Cressians are likely to know much about, using these they can continue to wage guerrilla warfare against the Junga, but more importantly they develop ways to use their now very experienced light troops with missile weapons and their animal adavantages.

When the Junga hit the plains, the Cressians plan to soften them up by attacking supply trains and subjecting them to constant raiding on their first day of marching.  On the second they plan to assemble an army from their scattered forces, and subject the Junga to lots of hit and run tactics.  They will try to prepare their heavy formations ahead of time, so as to avoid the disruption of their last pitched battle, but will avoid commiting them until they feel they must or the Junga have been sufficeintly softened.

The major aspect of their plan, however, will be to use the Junga's eagerness to close against them, the plain will be heavily trapped along the likely Junga path of attack, and units of powerful clerics will operating independently of the main body.

These clerics will operate against the enemy in a variety of ways, taking care to remain hidden and protected, until their big push.  Gathering together hordes of animal allies ahead of time, the Druids will send them against the Junga rear in a concentrated shock action stampede.

If they can break the Jungans here, great!  If not they will try to save as much of the army as possible by dispersing it, and then attack the Junga army again when it is besieging their main city.

Should that fail they will dissapear into the interior and bide their time.


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## ajanders (Feb 7, 2003)

In all fairness, after the second invasion, the Cresians will do a few things of their own.
I'll wait for our esteemed moderator to shape how we move forward before elaborating, but I don't think the Jongans will get a third free shot against a defending enemy.  The Cresians will likely go on the offensive somehow.


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## Drakmar (Feb 8, 2003)

the Cresians would at least send some of their faithful to spy in the Jongan homeland.. and maybe even stuff up some of the Jonga homelands food making ability.

heck.. a spy might even be able to find out able the higher tech of bronze.


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## s/LaSH (Feb 8, 2003)

Here's what I see the Jongans doing:

After developing certain technologies, they land on the coast north of Cresia and march south, burning the land behind them. They penetrate the unguarded borders and make a line for the central temple town. Meanwhile, their ships set up a diversion on the coast, keeping the Cresians divided.

They use special tactics as follows (in addition to other good ideas, above):

Always burn the terrain behind you. It provides dead ground to fall back onto if you're attacked, and at this point you're not looking to conquer, you're looking to kill.

Employ ranged weapons. They have superior engineering abilities, as demonstrated by wooden ship hulls and bronze weapons, so they construct siege machines. Using tar or naphtha or petroleum or something, they create fire-slingers that can drop a firebomb on an enemy druid at two hundred feet. Their troops are trained to use javelins, and small companies of crack archers hang behind the battle line to saturate the advance of the Cresians. All arrows are oil-soaked.
    This enables the Jongans to eradicate enemy advantage on occupied ground. If there aren't any plants, then there aren't any entangle spells. In addition, flaming oil floats... they can protect their ships from nautical assault, and bombard the shore from a safe distance.


If this tactic is too aggressive, the Jongans have a secondary scheme: viking raids. At unpredicable intervals, small groups land, use their concentrated numbers and superior technology to raze a village, then retreat to Jonga. If you keep down the enemy's population while sustaining only minimal casualties yourself, you will win in the long run.

More aggressive raids involve sailing up-river under cover of night, possibly using magical camouflage during the day to reach deeper territory. This would only work once, but if they can penetrate and raze the central town (which I'm sure they know about from prisoners), they score a long-term advantage.

Each raider ship thus has a complement of shift-sleeping mages and bards, with two-thirds of them ready to throw out fans of fire, reverse-engineered summons, illusions or charms at any one time. The ships are heavy with extra men, each of them with bows and swords, and each ship carries at least one firethrower.


Bear in mind that, back then, oil could be easily found on the surface. Not so much these days, when anything so easily found has been drilled up and sold to someone else. Thus I believe oil to become of increasing importance in the Jongan arsenal.

I don't know if they have the time to develop Greek Fire, which is more complex, but still Bronze or Iron-age technology, but 'put the oil in a pot, light it, throw it' isn't too difficult for primitive civilisations.


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Feb 8, 2003)

Greek fire is really hard to make, and even getting petroleum oil from the surface to burn right is pretty tricky.  Siege engines take a long long long time to be developed.

But I certainly agree that the Jongans are going to burn everything and get better at ranged weapons.

On the other hand if the Cressians develop spells that alter the wind, then things are going to look pretty grim for the Jongans.

Very much looking forward to the next plot development.


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## RangerWickett (Feb 9, 2003)

Sorry for not replying for a while.  I had one game (to play in) Thursday, and another (to run) Friday, plus Friday and Sunday are both birthdays of two of my close friends, so it's a bit hard to make the time necessary.  I won't be able to write up a full story this time, just an overview.

The Jonga retreat to their homeland and decide it would be foolish to attack again soon.  They've lost a lot of warriors, and they know at least that the Cresians are not skilled enough at seafaring to follow them back home.  It will be two years before the Jonga return.  This gives both sides a fair amount of time to prepare and set up defenses, plus it allows a few more people to reach fighting age.

A brilliant Jonga warleader decides that their next attack will use ships as a diversion along the south coast of the Cresians, while the primary attacking army will come in from a more northerly angle, traveling fully on land.  Unfortunately, they never got far enough into the heartland to learn the location of the main temple, so they don't know what to aim for.  Instead, they just burn both farmland and brush as they come, assuming that this invasion will just be to clear out the locals.  They won't come back for a while thereafter, and when they do the land will be extra fertile from the ashes.

The Cresians' rosebush-lined roadways do their job to disrupt Jonga formations.  Roadways are now built to encircle villages, and in open country they wind back and forth and are about 10 ft wide, with narrow four-foot wide straight paths that avoid the winding.  Cresians can easily travel through narrow gaps in the bushes, but invaders have to move slowly in single file though the narrow gaps, or travel through entangling thorny brush, or go slowly on the switchbacks, which gives the Cresians more time to prepare their defenses.  Cresian towns now have high brick walls around their villages, behind from which they can hurl spears down at attackers.  

The Cresians very rarely go out to meet their opponents now, since they prefer to use cultivated terrain to fight oncoming foes.  This also frees them to use the wildmen as warriors, since heretofore they have not been attacked during a full moon.  Over the two years, however, a few beastmen learn to force their transformations, which comes as a surprise to the Jonga.  The Jonga knew that the wolfmen could only change during the full moon (a trait they discovered when a group of their travelers were attacked, and later took refuge among the descendants of the hillfolk, far to the north).  However, the Jonga mages are surprisingly able to fend them off; spells and potions designed to burn fields to kill the land can also set fire to the rosepaths, creating large walls of fire that the beastmen are wary to cross.  Any forces that travel off the roads are easily picked off by hunting dogmen, but those that stay to the roads are able to use the Cresians' terrain against them.

After a little while, the Cresians start sending out wolfmen with beast summoners, so that summoned creatures can attack as a surprise and try to kill spellcasters, which gives the wolfmen a chance to get in close and fight well.  The surviving Jonga learn that only fire-forged weapons can harm the wolfmen, and future Jonga will start making weapons permanently enchanted with fire.

The most powerful priestess of the Cresians was blessed with a divine wind spell to drive away ships coming for the coast with a powerful howl, and she uses it to stop the advance of the ships, though of course that is not the primary front of attack.  A few villages are burned to the north, and the Jonga accomplish the most important goal of their attack--they capture several priests and charm them, eventually convincing them to share the secrets of summoning magic.

However, by not killing all of the attacking sailors, the Cresians are able to recover some Jonga sea ships, and through more direct intimidation tactics (rather than Jonga charm spells), the Cresians learn enough to plan a counter-attack.

So the Cresians prepare an assault on the isle of the Jonga, while the Jonga start to learn to use Cresian magic against them.


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## ajanders (Feb 9, 2003)

*The Cresians attack!*

Hoo ha!

On the Cresian side, I'm inclined to think the attacks might come earlier than two years and not as a technologically based land assault.
The Cresians have a reasonable ability to speak with animals, if I remember correctly.  Historically they have used that to speak with their beasts of the field and the small birds of the air.  When the first Cresian priest meets the first albatross, however, they get a whole new kind of open-ocean reconnaissance.  Several large fish and a few cure light wounds spells later, families of albatross have been recruited into service.
The albatross have never been helpful as coast watchers: there's just too much ocean and not enough albatrosses.  But for deep penetration reconnaissance, they're your birds.
A brief investigation of the scavenger fish in the ocean provides a long string of stories about big moving islands that dropped the most amazing food, giving the albascouts a bearing to backtrack.  Two months of hard work later, an albatross comes back with a story he heard from a tern who had it from a gull about a big nest of men on the other side of the ocean: for three fish, he'll show you the way.
Meanwhile, Cresian plant priests have been furiously trying to regrow their rose-walls: rose-bushes taking a long time to bloom, they eke them out with plants less sacred, but equally obnoxious, nettles, poison ivy, cockleburr, and the like.  In their search for plants, they might very well come across exotic plant monsters like the snappersaw, retch plant, and tri-frond flower.  Transplanting these is obnoxious, even when you can talk to them, but for some of the most critical areas where they can be constantly monitored by plant priests, they can provide more than just a passive obstacle for invaders.
A third group of priests petitions the FieldFather to grant them spells to make the fields more fertile and the plants grow more swiftly.  If this happens, a whole new world suddenly appears in Cresia.
On a mundane level, the Cresians are trying to rebuild their burnt land, build ships, and learn how to sail them: they're staying pretty busy.

The Jongans are in just the reverse state: their mundane tactics have worked very well indeed, and little development will be occurring there.  One or two clever chaps who are tired of getting hit with spears, however, start seriously experimenting with these bow and arrow toys: an arrow may not do as much damage as a spear, but it can be fired from farther away, which means less slogging through those darn rose bushes.  They don't get terribly far with it, because they work out that you'd need an organized formation of these things to do signficant damage, and they know how well formations work on the Cresians.  Nonetheless, the idea percolates around the Jongan army before finally getting taken up by the navy, who don't have to worry about rosebushes and entangle spells on their vegetation-free decks.  Future naval operations will have a sizable archery component, cutting off the druids ability to reshape the hull.
But the wizards are very busy indeed.
Summoning spells turn out to be cute, but the real power comes when someone crosses the Jongan power over minds with the Cresian ability to communicate with plants and animals.  This is potent magic, and very few among the Jongans can manage it, but a lot of Jongan wizards are looking forward to getting a pet Cresian beastman on their side.

The next war may turn out to be a lot more subtle and magical, particularly if the FieldFather grants the Cresians spells to help plants grow and most particularly to bring rain.

I'll wait to hear what the FieldFather (aka Rangerwickett) has to say about that before continuing on...no hurry on my account.


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## s/LaSH (Feb 9, 2003)

Let the pre-war brainstorming continue...

If I were a Cresian...

I'd suspect that the Jongan homeland would be full of rough, tough warrior types, all with big swords, possibly fortified. Having interrogated the soldiers about Jongan fortifications and plant growth, I'd consider a few interesting tactics.

First, the tow-ship. With animal control, you can harness whales or seals to pull your ships even without wind, giving Cresian naval vessels a great advantage at certain times (and with their abilities, I'm sure the Cresians would pick the calmest time of year to launch any attack). Sails and oars supplement this ability, but to hook up a whale and sail off into the sunset... the Jongans never see that one coming.

Second, they try to influence the Jongans to gnaw themselves to death (metaphorically speaking). On an island, their resources are naturally limited, so they resolve to destroy all the wood and crops on Jonga. It's really a simple proposition: launch quick strikes on the island during calm periods, when the tow-ships are most effective. Each strike lands at night, hides the ship in a remote area, then when Jongans pass nearby they use their own plants against them and run like heck.

Eventually, they reason, the Jongans will start burning down their own forests just to avoid being trashed by sneaky Cresian raiders. If they don't, then the Cresians will slowly distort and destroy the availability of straight wood necessary for shipbuilding. When Jongan trees are no more, of course, is when the Cresians launch a full-scale assault on the Jongan fleet in harbour, shaping every hull into useless shapes, and retreat, now with naval superiority.

With command of the seas, the Cresians can happily raid the Jongans for a few years until they surrender.

Now, the wood raiders is a risky proposition, and it relies on being able to quickly eradicate the Jongan wood supply. If their island is too big, however, Cresians are more at home in the wilderness than the industrious Jongans, so they're capable of hiding out and sending the local animals on raids on Jongan cities. If the Jongans are well-fortified, well, then there's no quick solution... the Cresians would do better to just build a fleet and start training whales.

Third... After a little while, and a few unfortunate accidents during training, it becomes apparent that whales are actually very effective combatants. A small corps of attack whales is trained to seek out and crush Jongan ships; to protect their own vessels from these free agents, the Cresians adopt a special hull design with underwater ornamentation. (And whales aren't too tough to control... if they put up a fuss, sharks are much easier to control in large numbers, and that gets the whales right in line.)

Given time, the Cresians would discover the true bounty of the sea, and with their magical abilities, they're quite capable of setting up aquatic farms with sharks or dolphins herding fish or whales. Especially keen on shallow waters where nets are useful, they also promote kelp growth in an effort to create an aquatic version of their rose barriers... and kelp doesn't burn so well.

However, these plans and possibilities are just plans so far.


The Jongans, meanwhile, are experimenting with summoning magics. They quickly discover the disadvantage of summons: a short duration. This means that summons are best employed in the attack; if employed in defence, the enemy need simply withdraw and the summon will be wasted. A new battle drill is developed, wherein the arcane caster and his strike group advance to the front of battle, summon monsters into the heart of the enemy formation, and withdraw. Not only are the enemy disrupted, but the Jongan troops are fortified by the song of the caster during the advance and retreat. The theory is that the enemy will be totally outclassed at that point, and so the summon striker is tasked with breaking enemy strongpoints and fortresses.

A more disturbing fact is this: the official summoning lists (those creatures easiest to summon by non-Druid casters) are, at lower levels, largely fiends. All summons have the ability to communicate, albeit briefly (Celestial and Fiendish templates give INT of at least 3). And here's the order of sentients: Level 2: Formian worker/Lemure, Level 3: Triton/Azer/Salamander/Dretch. Now, the tritons could make an interesting ally in that they're sea-based and the Jongans will need to fight by sea in future. However, Azers, as elemental smiths, are a much more useful ally, and the rest of them are just evil. I see the Jongans allying themselves with Dark Forces in the future... and the Dark Forces jumping at the chance to gain a foothold on this world. They'll eagerly help the Jongans, maybe even sending some mighty champions to help them (of course, that completely destroys the historic order, as any fiendish faction capable of sending its members across the planes has to have access to high-level spells like Plane Shift which neither side of this was are likely to develop for centuries or millenia).

And, anticipating that their new weapon is fairly useless on the defensive, they begin to plan for yet another invasion...

...but it's only a plan so far.


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## Buttercup (Feb 9, 2003)

I haven't contributed to this interesting game so far, but I've got a few ideas to throw in.  I agree with S/lash that the Cressians will put their plant & animal communication skills to work on sea life.  

And I think they'll quickly discover that the sea is a rich source of all kinds of resources.  Many kinds of seaweed are edible, as are many kinds of sea life.  So the cressians will quickly have a more varied diet.  This makes for healthier, more long lived people, and a higher birth rate.  Obviously the effects of this last point won't come to fruition for a good 15-20 years, but the health benefits would be apparent in just a few months.

Another thing the Cressians will find in the sea is a selection of plant & animal life that is poisonous.  I can imagine them learning to control various jellyfish and corals.  If they can cause corals to grow around their coastline, the Jongan ships would get their hulls breached, or run aground before they could get close to the beach.  And if the Cressians farmed colonies of man-of-war and lion's mane jellyfish in the shallows between the coral beds and the beach, the odds of healthy and whole Jongians traversing this gauntlet would be slim to none. (Have you ever seen what a Portugese man-of-war can do to someone?  :shudder  These creatures have short generations, so two years is plenty of time to grow a substantial population, especially if you can hurry it alont with your magic.

And then you have puffer fish.  How about spears and arrows dipped in puffer fish extract?  

If I were the Cressians, I would be thinking that my survival and the Jongians survival were mutually exclusive, and I would be determined not to be on the short end of the deal.  Jongians use fire, eh?  Well then, we'll use botanical and animal based poisons.

Finally, if the Cressians do manage to sneak into Jongian forests, I would think they would seed all the land they could with noxious plants such as poison ivy, and maybe they would try to blight Jongian food crops. How about a magical version of the Irish potato famine?


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## F5 (Feb 9, 2003)

*The Cresian Navy*

Having captured Jongan ships to learn from gives the Cresians a huge advantqge.  With their magical abilities to warp and shape wood, they can build ships many orders of magnitude faster than the Jongans can.  What's more, the ships can be bigger.  Whole trees can be shaped to create masts hundreds of feet high, and formed of solid wood, making them much stronger.  Bigger masts mean more sails, which means more speed.  Solid wood means more tactile strength, which means they can perform maneuvers that would snap Jongan ships in half.  

Add to that the ability to strike sail and hook up a harnessed pod of whales once the enemy is in sight, and you have a phenomenally maneuverable ship that can fight regardless of wind conditions.  And you would need almost no crew to run the rigging once the whales were hooked up, leaving the ENTIRE CREW free to fight/board/whatever.  They could use their albatross scouts to pinpoint the location of enemy ships, and attack them when they are becalmed, or from upwind, and they'd have no chance.  In a very short amount of time, the Cresian navy would be an unstoppable juggernaut.  

The wooden ships would be vulnerable to the Jongan fire-casters, and there would be a few catastrophic losses where many ships were burned.  Even then, the crew dives overboard, is rescued by their whale and dolphin companions, an albatross is sent home with a report, and with a month of Plant Growth and Warp Wood spells, the ships are replaced.  Crews of low-level priestesses are trained as fire-brigades, preparing as many Create Water spells as they can, to minimize the effect of fire damage aboard ships in the future.

Going in the opposite direction of the whale-drawn galleon, they might also create smaller sea vessels; chariots drawn by a team of dolphins.  These would be small, lightweight hulls, crewed by three Cresians; a priestess/pilot, a shield-bearer, to protect the crew from arrows and javelins, and a beastman marine.  Fleets of these tiny ships would swarm enemy vessels, and the marines throw up grappling hooks, force their transformation, and overrun the enemy vessel.  If the cresians are using sharks, they will have a hard time getting the dolphins' cooperation, so this tactic, while cool, may not ever happen.

Whether whale-galleons or dolphin-chariots, the cresians set up an organized coast guard, in addidion to any offensive maneuvers.  Between that and their albatross-scouts, it's unlikely the Jonga will be able to catch them unprepared again.

-edit:  Add Buttercup's pufferfish-poison-tipped-spears to the idea of the chariot-pulled boarding parties.  Poison-based attacks = good idea, and nasty, too...


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## RangerWickett (Feb 9, 2003)

A few clarifications:

Given the number of trees in your average forest, and the fact that even mid- to high-level druids can only warp wood a couple times a day, it's unfeasible that they'd be able to get rid of an entire forest of lumber on the Jonga island.

You can charm creatures to defend you perhaps, but expecting them to go charging into a full township of foes is too much.  Wild animals cannot be used as strike teams (at least not until we get dominate animal spells), so if you want them, you need to fight with them.

No sailing ships yet.  The actual distance between the two countries is probably something like 30 miles, so sails aren't really necessary either.

I don't know how fast it takes to invent things, but developing puffer-fish venom (or any type of sea venom) might be a bit much for common use.  I could imagine maybe a single person realizing what this poison could do and developing individual tactics for poison attacks, and maybe creating a group of skilled sneak-killers (assassins, but not for hire).  But I don't think you'd be able to get enough poison for more than a few people at once.



I'm liking the mental image of a narrow skiff of a boat, being pulled at high speed by dolphins, with warriors wielding harpoons controlling the sea-chariot.  Kinda like a bronze-age fantasy jet ski.  Also, whale-drawn ships could work pretty well, but not for close quarters maneuvering.  The Cresian ability to shape wood means they can just create boats whole cloth, rather than have to build them (since they don't have the proficiency to make boards of wood waterproof), so they can actually develop naval superiority if you give them a year or two.  

The Cresians don't understand warfare enough to realize they should attack Cresian ship-building areas, so instead they just send a few ships to find the exact way to the island and scout it out, then leave, since they don't have overwhelming numbers.  They don't understand 'viking tactics,' as one of you put it.  Instead, there are a few naval battles where the more experienced Jonga typically have the upper hand, especially when their mages use sonic attacks to stun the animals pulling Cresian ships.

The Jonga, however, do.  They don't want to relent on their attacks, so every month or so, the Jonga send one or two ships to strike coast, burn a village, and retreat.  This leads to the Cresians abandoning their diverse array of coastal villages, instead building up the two or three that haven't been burned down (much) as places of refuge for large numbers of people.  They keep a coastal defense fleet, and try to figure out ways to protect their sea beasts of burden.

The Cresian tradition of shapeshifting is expanded upon, now that the Cresians are having a greater interaction with the ocean.  So we eventually end up with an order of shapeshifting seagoers, sorta . . . scurvy sea dogs.  (sorry)

The Jonga realize they have to fortify their own defenses, so they clearcut any woods on the coast and bring it inland.  For safety's sake they have to build ships inland now, but it makes their homeland more secure.    They also realize that Cresians aren't apparently able to warp stone or metal, so they build stone look-out posts along the shore and along major roads.  Finally, their mages develop multiple ways of disrupting, scaring, or killing the sea beasts that draw Cresian fleets.


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## Ciaran (Feb 9, 2003)

Mind if I join in the fun?  

Cretian metallurgy may not get anywhere, but simple examination of the strange blood-metal from across the sea will reveal that direct sunlight causes metal to heat up, possibly to the point where it burns at a touch.  This leads to the development of the _heat metal_ spell, a powerful military advance against the Jongans.

Knowing the importance of food, and incensed by the destruction of their own farms by fire, I suspect that the Cresian priests would pray that the same indignities be inflicted upon the enemy; if the Jongans show so little respect for the Field-Father, then let their own lands go barren!  _Diminish plants_ would have a marked effect on Jongan agriculture.  Of course, this requires that druids actually sneak over to the Jongan islands, and they can ill afford to lose any more members of their priestly caste.  But the spells are subtle and require no direct contact with the Jongans.  By the time the Jongans realize what’s happening, it may be too late.

Once the Cretian shapeshifters master their changes, they too can participate in guerilla warfare in Jonga, becoming truly fearsome spies and assassins.  While advanced espionage lies far in the future, poisoning a well or a granary would be child’s play for a shapeshifter.

Do the Jongan wizards use spellbooks?  I gather that the Cretians may not even have writing, in which case books will appear to them as some kind of bizarre magical talisman or fetish; but once they understand how important spellbooks are to the Jongan wizards, things can get nasty.  All it takes is one hungry rat, bookworm, or other vermin to sneak into a wizard’s home and ruin his or her spellbook…

The Jongans, for their part, seem more culturally sophisticated than the Cretians, and are more likely to come up with high-level military tactics.  Their bards will undoubtedly develop _whispering wind_, allowing the Jongan units to co-ordinate over long distances and making it easier to track down Cretian agents on the islands.  Likewise, their wizards can use higher-level versions of _flare_ as a signaling mechanism, thus passing along basic information to all other units over a wide area.

Ultimately, I don’t see a final winner in this conflict.  This is a war of retaliation, not of conquest, and the battles will only serve to deplete each society’s manpower and resources.  The Jongans, with their superior weapons and tactics, will win most pitched battles, but Cretian guerilla tactics will gnaw away at their infrastructure.  Eventually, both sides should be sufficiently exhausted to dictate a _de facto_ truce.

If neither culture crushes the other immediately, the Cretians have the advantage in the intermediate term, as their druids can guarantee a perpetual surplus of food, something the Jongans cannot expect.  However, they seem to have a relatively complacent, hide-bound mindset by comparison to the Jongans.  However, if the Cretians don’t take advantage of their faster growth to conquer or crush their opponents, then Jongan technological savvy and magical ingenuity will give them a long-term advantage.


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## Tonguez (Feb 9, 2003)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> *
> The Jonga, however, do.  They don't want to relent on their attacks, so every month or so, the Jonga send one or two ships to strike coast, burn a village, and retreat.  This leads to the Cresians abandoning their diverse array of coastal villages, instead building up the two or three that haven't been burned down (much) as places of refuge for large numbers of people.  They keep a coastal defense fleet, and try to figure out ways to protect their sea beasts of burden.
> 
> The Cresian tradition of shapeshifting is expanded upon, now that the Cresians are having a greater interaction with the ocean.  So we eventually end up with an order of shapeshifting seagoers, sorta . . . scurvy sea dogs.  (sorry)
> ...




The Jonga have signed their own death warrant!

Buttercups wonderfully inspired idea of growing a wall of Coral along the Cresian coast means that the Viking tactics are no longer effective. The Coral tears into the hulls of the Jonga ships allowing the teeming schools of Jellyfish, the Cresian Sea Wolves and Sharks to feast on Jongan flesh
(ps if you are ever in Brisbane don't swim in the sea- those bluebottles sting! - unfortunately I found out the hard way)

The Coral has only a few openings and these are well patrolled by the Dolphin skiffs. (ooc personally I think your ruling on the sail is a bit off if I may say so - really as soon as a culture can make a peice of fine weave cloth it can make a sail - and I think the Cresians are advanced enough for weaving). Also I suggest that the Cressians develop outrigger and multihull 'catamaran' tech especially for the Whale ships. They are much more manouverable and easy to build (all thats required is a couple of dugout canoes and a few long poles - stone age tech in the Pacific at least). These craft are generally faster and more manouverable than larger, deeper 'displacement hull' (ie standard yatch/sailing ships) designs. They also make sense with the Cresians reliance on quick strikes and the shallow drafts help in case of coral outcrops

The Jongans biggest mistake however was cutting down their coastal forest. It may limit use of entangle but it also leads to soil erosion, the encroachment of sand onto formerly furtile gardens and makes the Jonga interior vunerable to the Hurricaine force winds which the Cressians are now working on as their new secret weapon.

Wind control was initially developed to counter the Jongas slash and burn policy - the wind being able to turn the fire against the Jonga and where neccesary help extinguish it. This has developed and the Cressians can now summon hurricaines (whilst staying out of range at sea on the whale boats) which will blast far into the Jongan interior (the coastaol forest having been removed) pushing both waves and sdand far inland and destroying all in its path.  (any winds blowing towards Cressia are bvlocked by the reef intially but also but its bulwark of trees and brambles.

Wind control also leads on to general weather control and thus lightning strikes are used to burn the few forests left standing after the hurricaines

Having seen the effects which sea and salt have on crops the Cressians then move onto to developing magics which blight and wither crops as much as those which help them grow. They also send hordes of disease carrying rats into the Jongan towns and spread plague amongst the already malnourished population

Their crops destroyed, their towns diseased the Jonga are doomed...

or are they?


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Feb 10, 2003)

Poison isn't too hard to master if you can secure a supply.  

Poisoning weapons is more of an individual skill you have to teach to people than an industry you have to develop and support several large groups of craftsmen for in order to secure a supply.

People with the Cressians level of organization generally do pretty well against raiders.   From the three stronghold villages they can organize systems of watchmen, evacuation plans, and response teams.  Most of their villages become more like camps, but overall they would still be able to utilize the coastline and the raids would cost them little while gaining them valuable experience.   

Small, seaworthy, and very maneuverable boats are something the Cressians are likely to develop as a result of their magical advnatages and their need to move their boats into small protected coves and channels when the Jongans attack.  Though I think that larger warships are also likely to come together.

Overall I think the Jonga raiding strategy will prove to be a very expensive means of keeping the Cressians occupied.

I wholeheartedly agree that invasion of the Jonga does not seem to be in the Cressian character, but I also think that they are going to become more powerful than the Jongans are as a result of this warfare.    

The Cressians will end up masters of light infantry with some skill at heavy formations, in a far better position from which to develop cavalry, superior food supplies, a skill at naval warfare that promises to improve drastically over time, and very improved magic usage.

Eventually they will also pick up a lot of the technology.  A key component of Cressian development in this conflict will be the acquisition of a Jongan force.  All it would take is the Cressians isolating a Jongan force and then offering them terms.  Then the Jongans are moved deep into the plains, beyond the limit of previos Jongan incursions, and put into highly controlled mixed communities.  From them the Cressians will be able to acquire some very valuable Jongan techniques.  Bronze working is still dang hard to do unless you have access to a vast trading network or tin is far more common in this world than on Earth, and the raiding parties are unlikely to include a highly valued bronze smith.  But the prisoners are likely to have a high understanding of weapons maintenance and formation tactics and if they are treated well and given good land, they will inevitably be happy to talk.  Some will certainly know and practice unique forms of Jongan agriculture and architecture.  

This sort of interaction is fairly common in the early history of civilizations. And I think its very possible for the Cressians to isolate a force or two as well.  They are more mobile, can prepare the terrain if they make an effort and are lucky, and they don't have to rely on boats to get the prisoners anywhere.  Heck if they get agents on the Jongan island they are certain to find an unhappy aristocrat who is willing to defect with his retinue at some point, then its just a question of not killing off the right raiding party.

I love the idea of a deliberate great barrier reef.  That fits perfectly with the thorny rose bushes.  The Cressians are never going to get scurvy with all those rose hips around, and they are going to end up with both great defenses and fantastic ecologies.
They need it too, a diet based population boom will save them from the depredations of the large invasions.

And the Jongans are royally screwed by getting rid of their coastal forests.  I just read an article on the dissapearance of the medieval European coastal forests, oddly enough a near totally natural event in most places, and the effects were horrible.  Took them a long time to figure out how to fix sand dunes with North African plants and rabbits.

Classical Athens experienced some truly horrendous environmental effects from the deforestation necessary to build their fleet and the devastation caused by Spartan raids in the Pellopenessian War.   

The basic equation for Cressian supremacy, however, is that to conquer one must be able to destroy the opposing army and occupy the disputed land.  The Jongan's are able to do neither, and while the Cressians do not have superiority in pitched battle, they can do real damage using guerrilla tactics and they are great at occupying the land.  

In the end, I see a lengthy stale mate, until one side or the other either comes up with a brilliant plan or negotiates or both.  With the Cressians probably expanding and improving their empire a great deal.


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## Tonguez (Feb 10, 2003)

Dr. Strangemonkey said:
			
		

> *And the Jongans are royally screwed by getting rid of their coastal forests.  I just read an article on the dissapearance of the medieval European coastal forests, oddly enough a near totally natural event in most places, and the effects were horrible.  Took them a long time to figure out how to fix sand dunes with North African plants and rabbits. *




Yep just look at what happened when the Great Sahara forest disappeared!


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## s/LaSH (Feb 10, 2003)

Well, I'd have to agree with the consensus...

The Jongan fortification phase is a strategic error. They hold the technological edge, but by retreating they allow the Cresians time to advance their own technology, lay a fleet of hulls, and train a bigger army. Furthermore, if the Cresians get their act together (and it's allowed) the coral barricade will permanently kill any hope the Jongans have of making any further raids.

The thing about coral, however, is that the reef itself isn't alive; it's the discarded shelters of billions of generations of polyps. Coral reefs are millions of years old. If the Cresians try to build a coral barrier, they're in for a rude surprise... unless they find a way to kill 99% of the coral polyps in a given area, then grow them back. Does anyone think Summon Swarm could become deadly if adapted to this purpose? (OK, it's a non-standard spell. But it's not too far off, and the reef itself isn't summoned, it's built by the summon.)

Then again, the same thing can be said about human hair and outer skin... it's not alive, either, but it sure looks that way. So perhaps Plant Growth could promote the expansion of coral. It's a difficult point to adjudicate, and if coral can be propagated in this way the Jongans are doomed, no two ways about it. The Jongans can't suppress the Cresian war machine if they're reefed off, and the Cresians can prepare for a long siege (as the Jongans aren't beaten yet).

The Jongans, of course, would do their best to stop this, but sonics and fire aren't too effective underwater, especially not against rock. And even if they do kill the polyps, the Cresians just come back the next day and grow more - the Jongans actively help in their own destruction.

So what do the Jongans do while all this is going on? They're building mighty fortresses... they're standing to lose dominion over the sea... and they're engaging in summoning experiments. Could they possibly develop aerial cavalry?

This is EXTREMELY hypothetical, I should point out.

Whatever gods the Jongans follow are certainly willing to assist their chosen people in their fight against the Cresians. The Cresians recieved the gift of lycanthropy; why don't the Jongans recieve a similar gift in the form of a tame griffon - or wyvern?

If a single breeding pair is recieved (with a divine blessing to prevent inbreeding), the Jongans could concievably have a single strike force (of a half dozen griffon) in 2-3 years, and two dozen in 4-6 years. I anticipate that the Cresians would launch a full-scale assault only when they feel they're ready - that could easily take 5 years, and maybe longer.

Aerial cavalry gives the Jongans the ability to launch long-distance raids from their fortresses even during a state of siege. It also gives them the ability to pass over coral barriers, entanglement, and nearly every benefit the Cresians have developed. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like the Jongans would get enough in the way of numbers to turn the tide before the Cresians rolled onto Jonga and started besieging their fortresses with superior numbers.


I also anticipate that the Jongans would become adept trap-makers. Starting with pit-traps on their roads to deter Cresian invaders, and moving up to murder holes in their fortress entrances. (I wouldn't say molten lead is beyond them, and molten gold could well be used if they're truly desparate. Anyway, spears and stones and boiling water are just as effective.)

Finally, the Cresians have their own fleet... why don't they go exploring? They've explored in all directions to find the Jongans. What else did they find? And did they stop when they found their enemy, or did they keep going to the local equivalent of Africa? The thought of Cresian elephant riders is quite invigorating.


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## F5 (Feb 10, 2003)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> *
> No sailing ships yet.  The actual distance between the two countries is probably something like 30 miles, so sails aren't really necessary either.
> *




Ah.  I see I jumped the technological gun a little.    Must remember that we're only 100 years or so out of the early bronze age.  Like Tonguez said, it's not hard to make or use a simple sail.  However, with the Cresians' low level of understanding, it wouldn't be a complex, multi-sailed rig, but a big sheet on a stick.  Probably tried and abandoned in favor of the (for now) much more effective Cetacian Tow (tm).  This may come back to bite them way down the road, as sails would be much better over long distances, and they'll probably be behind when sailing technology is developed in full.



			
				RangerWickett said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I'm liking the mental image of a narrow skiff of a boat, being pulled at high speed by dolphins, with warriors wielding harpoons controlling the sea-chariot.  Kinda like a bronze-age fantasy jet ski.  *




Yeah, that's the image I had in mind, too... 

I think we're in for a long-term stalemate.  The Cresians' coral-barriers, and quick, maneuverable coast guard make their shores near-invulnerable.  If the Jongans manage to get communication spells like whispering wind, with their clear-cut shores they have clear line-of-sight to spot incoming ships.  With heavy fortification of their cities and shoreline forts, the Cresians will have a hard time landing enough troops to make a direct attack feasable.  There are way s around these defenses...the Cresians land ships at night, the Jonga land ships far down the coast and march in overland, but both of these maneuvers are hard and could be costly.  

Ultimately it comes down to a long-term war of attrition and endurance, and with the Jonga's clear-cut and ecologically ruined shoreline, and their lack of magical aid in getting food, they will ultimately lose.  What's worse, their own clear-cutting combined with small cresian raids with magical crop-killers and well-poisoners would royally trash their island's fragile ecosystem, and the only ones who could repair it are the Druids of their hated enemies.  I think after a year of famine and hunger, they'll be willing to talk terms.  Or desperate for magical aid that could turn the tide.  

Unless they get their Aerial Cavalry.  That will strech the conflict out for longer, but unless they're prepared to eat their griffons, won't solve the larger problem of famine.  And would give the animal-handling cresians ideas, as they start breeding up their own giant war eagles.


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## Ciaran (Feb 10, 2003)

s/LaSH said:
			
		

> *So what do the Jongans do while all this is going on? They're building mighty fortresses... they're standing to lose dominion over the sea... and they're engaging in summoning experiments. Could they possibly develop aerial cavalry?
> 
> This is EXTREMELY hypothetical, I should point out.
> 
> Whatever gods the Jongans follow are certainly willing to assist their chosen people in their fight against the Cresians. The Cresians recieved the gift of lycanthropy; why don't the Jongans recieve a similar gift in the form of a tame griffon - or wyvern? *



I think this is implausible, considering the following:

1) The Jongans haven’t yet developed _ground_ cavalry.  Aerial cavalry seems a bit over-the-top at this stage of the game.

2) Jongan society isn’t terribly religious, insofar as we’ve seen thus far.  They may have a few clerics, but their society is oriented more towards pragmatic, secular solutions for their problems.

3) We don’t even know what god the Jongans worship, but given what we’ve seen of their magics, it’s probably a fire-deity of some sort.  We can tie that in with their smithcraft and their bardic traditions, giving the god dominion over the fires of the forge and the artist’s creative spark.  In any event, whatever boon the god might give, it wouldn’t be over aerial beasts, but would instead involve fire in some way.

4) The proto-Cresians received their lycanthropic gift when their people were in danger of being destroyed.  The Jongans are on the offensive; I can’t see them as feeling sufficiently threatened to pour their hearts and souls into seeking a boon of their gods.  Maybe later, when things get tough for the Jongans, but not yet.

- Eric


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Feb 10, 2003)

Well, there is one benefit to the Jongans fortifying.  The paranoia will make it extremely hard for the Cressians to convert or subvert substantial portions of the population, which is the historically accepted tactic to get rid of raiders.  Well, alongside good coastal defenses, rapid response forces, and bribery.


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## s/LaSH (Feb 11, 2003)

Aerial cavalry doesn't look like it's happening just yet. It's just too improbable. The coral reefs still seem possible, though.

Realistically, the Jongans continue with their coastal raids until the Cresian port fortresses are completed, at which point any quick raid either attacks superior numbers in the fortresses, or risks entanglement in the interior.  The Jongan raids die down after a while, as the Jongans realise that they're not doing too well out of these exchanges.

To construct ships in the interior of their island, they HAVE to have developed certain key technologies. It's possible that they roll their ships along logs, but this is wood-inefficient and they know they need all the straight timber they can get. So the Jongans are likely to have the wheel and mighty ship-moving carts just so they can get the ships in the water. Initially, their wheels are probably giant, rounded-off treestumps or crossections of large trees with huge wooden or bronze axles, and this won't change for a while (wheel technology is quite sophisticated). These carts are prone to breaking axles. Chariots are millenia off yet, I anticipate, especially on a small island without much room.

However, the advent of the wheel allows certain other advances. Primitive mechanisms can be cobbled together with ratchets, levers and cogs (wheels with big pegs in the side). Small structures suitable for sieges can be fitted with wheels to provide shelter for advancing troops. The biggest advance is the Turtle: a small hut on wheels, roofed with bronze plating, that allows a half dozen Jongan warriors to advance on a fortified location without risk of missile bombardment. Turtles are unused in field warfare, because they're too slow and confine their warriors; spears would make short work of such a device.

The battering ram (a log housed in beaten bronze) may be another development, for use against the Cresian port fortresses. Combined with a Turtle, the Jongans feel they have the ability to launch a powerful assault on the port fortresses and suffer minimal casualties. Their plan: Land on the coast a few miles from the port, offload a large force of siege engineers, summoners and skirmishers, and unleash them on the port all at once. They feel that the Turtle's bronze plating can resist wood shaping spells. (They could well be wrong, of course; wood can be surprisingly powerful.)

This tactic is almost inevitable, as the wheel is the only method I can see that allows Jongans to create a fleet inland, and the rest is simply logical. However, it isn't going to happen overnight; they need time to put together the strike force, and they don't even see the need for such a strike until the Cresians have completed their port fortresses, which could take years.

Another tactic involves huge numbers of fiendish squids and sharks. Having learned to summon such creatures, they would definitely want to put them to good use in naval engagements. The most common tactic involves waiting for a Cresian dolphin skill to begin an attack run, then summoning a number of squids and sharks into their path, largely because dolphins are faster than both squids and sharks. This tactic is limited by the number of spells a Jongan can cast per day.

However... the Jongans see the usefulness of summons after a while, and might wish to be able to cast more. And so they invent the alphabet for the explicit purpose of recording spells on slabs of rock - the first scrolls. While still extremely valuable, these scrolls allow a single caster to perform as many, leaving most of the better casters safe in a fortress somewhere scribing scrolls.

Meanwhile, the Cresians are busy learning about the ocean, and looking back at their ancient history when they had to fight fire-magics in caves. It seems logical that water is the surest way to defeat fire. And, while the Cresians cannot migrate beneath the waves without a SERIOUS divine boon (not forthcoming), they can certainly begin to use it to their advantage. Consider the PHB Water domain at low levels... fog, fog, fog. While dolphins and whales can 'see' with ultrasonic senses underwater, and beastmen can smell out their enemies, the Jongans have no such advantage. Unsuitable for use during a siege, the Cresians nevertheless realise that fog is a perfect cover for an attack, and begin to use it in their naval engagements... and perhaps to cover attacks on Jonga itself, using beastmen. The Jongans shall come to fear the mists of the full moon...


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## ajanders (Feb 11, 2003)

*The Fog of war*

I'll note in passing that heavy fogs tend to condense moisture onto everything, making it hard to find dry, readily burnable things...though magic may solve that problem easily.

Throw enough fog up and the Jongans may never find Cresia...while I don't know the state of navigation, I doubt it's much more than basic celestial bodies.  If the Jongans are really unlucky, they might find the hard rocky bits of Cresia, shipwreck, and get to meet the Cresian sea dogs.
And the fog which blocks line of sight makes it harder for the Jongan spellcasters to target the enemy with their evocations and direct their conjurations.

As the Jongans destroy their wood, they destroy what they need to make ships and indeed, most of their artifacts.  Unless they've discovered coal, they're probably crippling their smithing operations for lack of fuel as well.  Wood's just too useful a material for primitive people to be afraid of it

If the Cresians can get their hands on plant growth spells, I'd look for a magically created Sargasso Sea to be created between Jonga and Cresia.  Most of the seaweed being underwater, it wouldn't burn at all.


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## F5 (Feb 11, 2003)

The Cresians' werewolves would be so much more deadly in fog.  A squad of wolfmen attacking under cloud cover would decimate even the Jongan's strongest formations.  And, while the siege turtles and war carts are effective developments, under a concealing fog (that the werewolves can Scent their way through), they'd be pretty easily overrun.  

A big enough fire can burn away fog, though, so the Jongans would build huge bonfires at the sites of their battles.  Not too subtle, but then the Jongans don't really go for subtlety anyway.  Still, heavy fog banks dampen firewood and tinder, making it hard to light fires naturally.  The obvious solution: their mages develop magic to light fires.  Since the mages can't be at the forefront of the battle lines, it's not long before they manage spells that start fires at range.  From there, it's not a far stretch for the military-minded, fire-loving Jongan mages to create their finest military spell to date: the Fireball.  Throw that crowd-pleaser into the mix, and how does that effect the Jongan condition?


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Feb 11, 2003)

gewd lawd!!!

The turtle is theoretically possible, but that is a heck of a lot of bronze, which is very valuable stuff, to make a single very heavy thing.  

It's the sort of thing that makes no sense for a historical bronze culture to even think of devising.  Unless that culture can wants to bring individuals who are capable of doing tremendous damage to men, but can't wear armor, into battle.

If you can train a small group of men or things to move the thing over uneven ground and nastiness then you would have the beginings of mage knights.  Gard that's nasty.

I don't even think you would need to cover such a thing with bronze to do it effectively.  Wicker covered in treated hide would be lighter, cheaper, and easier to maintain.  Bronze would be useful for the support structure and nice benefits like scythes, however.

I'm not certain that it wouldn't make more sense to build these to a grand scale.  Make them out of modular components so they can be shipped.  Land.  Assemble them so that they resemble two story towers with a very broad base.  Have the infantry pick them up and move them in protected comfort. And then blast anything that looks nasty until your men are close enough to put the structure down, arm themselves, push spears through the now dislodged front wall, and charge the enemy.  

Shuddering horrors that's a wicked way of using arcane spell casters.  Maybe the bards could develop a song to get all the infantry to act together without getting terribly tired or confused.  Would be useful on rowing ships as well.


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## s/LaSH (Feb 11, 2003)

The portable wicker fortress substitute for the Turtle does make more sense, I suppose. But the mobility is still an issue. If it were to be practical, you'd have to have people at the center moving it and people at the outside defending it, plus some hefty coordination, if it were big enough. Possible reason for the Jongans to domesticate beasts of burden, maybe raid them from the Cresians...

However, if it's built big enough, you could easily put a mage on _top _and have them hurl attack or summon spells at anything in range. I can't remember... do the Cresians have javelins? Or just melee spears? A tower with a broad enough base could certainly boost a mage far too high to have rocks and poorly-designed projectiles thrown at him.

Or is that a silly idea? The Jongans like fortress towers in their homeland... what about these things on the battlefield? I'm not sure what level of artisanship would be required to build one of these things, and (I think) wood can only build 2-3 stories before becoming unsafe. Maneuverability is an issue, but as a battlefield unit with elite guards they can sit slightly behind the lines and blast away at the Cresians. They might even be high enough to fire over the walls of the fortress ports, in which case put a staircase in and you've got a quick an easy way to load troops directly onto the walls.

However, as I've said, the Jongans wouldn't develop such a device until they realised that the fortress ports were less than pregnable. (Is that even a word?) So you wouldn't see them in raids, just sieges.

Meanwhile, I've remembered that when the second wave hit, the Cresians were growing coastal watchtowers, but they weren't ready yet. And since that confrontation, the Jongans haven't attacked the coast with fire and the sword again... so the trees are probably largely intact and mature by the time the port fortresses are ready. Although the Jongans raids begin to die off around that time, the towers are still manned just in case. If the Jongans do land a siege force, the Cresians are going to know about their strange weapons and perhaps stock up on the wood warping spells... and if the Jongan attack fails, the Cresians now know how to enter Jongan fortresses.

Of course, the Cresians don't have to build siege towers... they can grow them. Unfortunately, there's no spell I could find that allows them to grow an instant tree, but if they do develop that ability the Jongan fortresses are screwed... a tree growing beside the wall not only allows enemy troops to climb in, but damages the wall.

And with the increased role of magic in combat, someone's bound to develop Dispel Magic... it will banish summons and suppress magic weapons, and although it won't stop the beastmen or scurvy sea dogs (arr), it will allow at least some measure of defence on either side from magic. It's powerful for the era, but not too powerful.

It occurs to me that Animate Dead is within the reach of the Cresians, but they wouldn't use it, and the Jongans probably aren't powerful enough to cast a level 5 spell. So undead are still out of the picture, unless the Cresians get really desparate.


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## F5 (Feb 11, 2003)

It's way out of scope for this particular conflict, but something like Daern's Instant Fortress would make an interesting addition to siege warfare.  You send in a small squad of mages with one of these and some Wall Of Stone spells and you don't have to worry about building siege towers, in seconds you can build an effective CASTLE, right outside the enemy's door.

Modify it slightly, so that it doesn't have the magical defenses of the normal Fortress, but it can be dispelled and activated at will.  Your troops move in, they -blink- a fortress tower into existance, use it to gain control of an area, deactivate it and push on a few hundred yards.  Lather, rinse, repeat.

Or you could modify the Leomund's spells to pop up instant bunkers.  You don't need to drag a siege tower with you, you just get a wizard close enough and create it there.  Like I said, out of scope here, but an interesting thought.


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## Tonguez (Feb 11, 2003)

The problem with Turtles -and most other heavy war engines- is that they become a hindrance when crossing uneven terrain and what with their swamps, bramble paths and entangled plains Cressia has a LOT of uneven ground - and the druids are creating more - which means that the Turtles are moving at a crawl if at all.

Of course the Instant Fortress makes that whole point moot.

Yes the Cressians do have Jevelins and bows - they are descended from nomadic hunters - ranged weapons only make sense.

Also I'm a bit iffy about Jongan invention of the Wheel simply because Islands aren't places where wheels tend to0 get invented - the small confined spaces don't usually have much demand for them and the movement of inland ships to the sea is imo better achieved by invention of canals and slipways (is big muddy slopes down which the ship can slide - ever see that japanese festival where they ride huge logs down a slope?).


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## Zaruthustran (Feb 11, 2003)

*Familiars = overwhelming recon advantage*

As others point out, coral reefs take a long, long time to build. Even with magical help, I don't think the Jongans have to worry about coral. 

The coastal defense trees are another matter. So, the Jongans learn to NOT row directly to Cresia, but instead to row along the coast until they find a clear landing area.

Coastlines are long, and extremely difficult to defend in force. Especially considering the limited population and lack of long-range communication. Remember, all communication at this age must go by foot--it would take several *days* for news of an attack on the coast or borders to reach the interior. And by that time, the attackers would be long gone.

It would be a simple matter to row a couple miles along the coast, land, and completely avoid the Cresian coastal defenses--whether those defenses are trees, coral, kelp, or massed sea creatures.

Once on land, the Jongan forces begin to use their Secret Weapons: flying familiars. Aerial reconnaissance is an extreme advantage in warfare. Especially when your aerial reconaissance can see in the dark (+14 Spot for Owl). Familiars can also be used for communication between groups. Ravens can speak, after all.

It's unlikely that the Cresians would be wary of flying birds, and even if the birds were attacked by summoned flying foes, the tougher Familiar could just retreat back to the safety of the Jongan force (by a circuitous route, of course).

So, using flying familiars as scouts, several stealthy Jongans raiding parties land and are able to avoid masses of Cresians. The familiars are able to locate the Cresian Druids and Clerics as they go about their daily lives--or rest at night. The Jongans act on this information and assassinate the Cresian clergy with lightning night raids. They pick off any survivors who might try to run and give warning of the attacks (familiars delivering Shocking Grasp touch attacks, or Magic Missile from afar). Each small raiding party should be able to slay many clergy before they're forced to retreat (again, using flying familiars to spot and thereafter avoid approaching Cresian reprisal parties). The Jongans burn as they go, using the fires as cover and as a distraction (forcing the Cresians to chose between pursuit and fighting the fire/rescuing people).

If the Jongans are clever and make sure to have their familiars act "natural" (as in, the Jongans never have the Familiars hang out with their Jongan masters), the Cresians won't even have a chance to but two and two together--they'll never make the connection between Familiar and wizard. 

A few such raids will quickly deplete the Cresian casters, forcing the Cresians to group their remaining casters in a few fortified locations. Without widely-dispersed magical support, the Cresian defenses are severely compromised. The Jongans can resume viking raids and even larger-scale attacks, using their familiars to warn when the Cresian Druids are finally alerted to an attack and set out from their fortresses. 

Once the druids come out of hiding to respond to the raids, the Jongans spread out and surround the druid force, using Magic Missile and tried-and-true Summoning spells to pick off casters from range. They also use Faerie Fire spells on enemy casters, giving the archers specific targets to shoot at.

It won't be long until the Jongans have an overwhelming magical advantage as well as their already-established military advantage. Eventually, the Cresians will retreat into a few large, well-fortified cities. The Jongans establish colonies on the coast, gradually take over the land, and either force the Crecians out or absorb them into their culture... although ironically, the stronger Crecian religion/peacetime way of life may overshadow the shallow militaristic culture of the conquerers.

-z

PS: the druids' Animal Companions and Speak With Animals spells are not anywhere near as good as Familiars, since:
1) animals are dumb: Int 2.
2) animals don't understand human language.
3) animals don't have the empathic link or Speak With Master.
4) animals can't follow complex plans
5) animals can't adjust plans "on the fly"
6) animals can't report/receive new orders during a mission
7) animals are unreliable, have trouble with concepts such as time, can't really differentiate between unfamiliar individuals, and so on.

Example:
Druid (casts Speak with Animals): Hawk, my Animal Friend, fly and look for enemy troops, then come back to me!
Hawk: (Flies away. Comes back in 1 minute. Or 2 hours. Or 2 days.)
Druid (casts another Speak with Animals): What did you see?
Hawk: Men.
Druid: Jongan men?
Hawk: Men. Men are Men. Saw men.
Druid: Did they have weapons?
Hawk: Weapons?
Druid: (points to sword, spear of companions) Weapons--like these?
Hawk: Yes.
Druid: Where were the men?
Hawk: Not here. Away.
Druid: Yes, but where?
Hawk: By tree. In field. (indicates general direction by pointing beak).
Druid: (looks around at hundreds of trees in nearby forest) Argh! Okay, lead us to the Men you saw--we'll follow you. 
Hawk: (Flies away, leads Druid to a group of Cresian farmers wielding shovels and hoes)
Hawk: _Scree!_
Druid: What?
Hawk: _Scree!_
Druid: Oh, my spell wore off. (casts another Speak with Animals). What?
Hawk: Men here! Feed me now?
Druid: Argh! Well, it's getting dark. Let's camp. Hawk, you stand watch. 
Hawk: Watch?
Druid: Start calling if you see any Men approach.
Hawk: Okay. (guard walks up to help Druid set up camp) _Scree!_
Druid: No, no--yell if a Jongan approaches.
Hawk: What is Jongan? Mouse? Mouse tasty.
Druid: (sighs) Just guard me--like the Trick I taught you.
Hawk: Okay.
(Later, a Jongan owl familiar spots the camp. The Jongans approach and attack at night--some mages use Dancing Lights to illuminate the camp for Jongan archers, while others use Burning Sphere to sow panic and burn tents. The Crecians have no targets for return fire. The Druid comes out of his tent, the owl Spots him and his master hits him with a Faerie Fire. The archers and other mages concentrate fire on the Druid. Once he's down, they mop up the others.)
Hawk: _Scree!_ (flaps off into the dark, scratches an archer, archer grabs and crushes bird)
Jongan archer: Check it out--new feathers for my arrows!
Raven familiar: Nice! Stupid bird. 
Owl familiar (laughing): Hoo! Hoo! Hoo!
Raven familiar: So where to next, my friends?


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## RangerWickett (Feb 11, 2003)

Regarding wheels, I know that the Easter Islanders supposedly just used logs as primitive tracks to roll things on, continually having to move more logs to the front of the track, if that makes any sense.

However, I must say I love the idea of fog as a military weapon.  It's definitely feasible, and if you train your forces to fight in fog while theirs aren't prepared, you should be able to strike hard and fast.  Especially since you'll be going around quietly while they have bright flaming torches to help you find them.  And don't forget the werewolves.  I also love the idea that _fireball_ of all things will get invented in reaction to a simple _obscuring mist_ spell.  Those are both brilliant ideas.  How do you think tactics would change to make use of fog as cover?

As for siege engines . . . eh, I'm not so sure of them getting used.  It's hard to carry them overseas, and indeed they were usually built relatively close to their target, and only after the defenders had holed themselves up for a while.

So how about we move onto the next phase of this encounter?  So far the entire conflict has lasted almost ten years.  Both sides' numbers have been whittled down, so they can each only field about 500 to 1000 total people of fighting age (consider that 10 years ago there were only 3000 Cresians overall, and it becomes obvious that the Cresians are forced to be cautious or even have those who are normally non-combatants be trained in the arts of war.  

The Cresians have attacked the Jonga island a few times in raids, doing far better than the Jonga's attempts to do the same, because attempts to fend off the Cresians were stymied by the Jonga's own plantlife.  Thus, they clear out the coast of trees (and use logs to shore up defenses, so that the coast now can only be landed upon at certain spots).  They prepare for another invasion, providing mildly enchanted weapons and even bronze armor to their best warriors, and building enough ships to send almost a thousand soldiers.

When the Jonga again try to invade, this time firing flaming arrows from a distance into the coastal grass on Cresia to try to drive off any wildshaped spellcasters.  It's not terribly effective, but it does give them a better chance of landing and disembarking.  Plus with their new control of counter magic (since they were able to interrogate charmed prisoners and figure out how Cresian magic works), they can dispel summons sent at their ships and uncharm attacking animals, so a large force gets onto the shore and starts to march as one large unit toward the heart of the country.  Signal birds sent from the coastal treeforts alert the heartland.  The two primary fortified towns on the coast are attacked one at a time, both falling.  Then the Jonga march toward the heartland, taking their time and burning fields ahead of them and waiting before they continue to march.  By the time they reach the heartland, they have left a trail of scorched earth in their path.  They don't intend to conquer Cresia, just destroy it.

But the Cresians have one final trick to play.  As the two armies prepare to meet for one of the first engagements in the heartland, dozens of Cresian magic-users conjure great mists to shroud their warriors.  The mist is too wide-spread an effect to dispel, so the Jonga are hard-pressed to counter this tactic (this is before fireballs are invented).

In the ensuing conflict, hit and run tactics in the mist, plus skillful usage of the now less-savage beastmen is critically successful in causing panic among the Jonga invaders.  When some groups try to flee, they find themselves blocked by lines of entangling plants and thorny brush.  Their army is able to maintain some semblance of control while they are still able to use horns and song to rally the forces, but when the Cresian priestesses use their howling song, the invaders are left deaf and blind.  Chaos reigns, and ranks break.  Many flee back to the coast but most are killed in a numbing battle that lasts into the night.  Those who survive it recall it as if it had been a dream, walking through the mists until you encounter a foe to kill, or an ally to help.

Worst of all, the few tree fort soldiers who hid from the initial invasion were able to outwit the invaders.  Though the Jonga had dispelled the charms that had made the Cresian fleet's animals loyal, they sent most of their spellcasters inland on the offensive, since they didn't have enough men to spare.  Unfortunately, their hopes for a fast, overwhelming victory were impossible.  Thus, the Cresians were able to re-charm the necessary animals and destroy those still remaining with the invasion fleet.  

When some of the Jonga who escape try to flee, most find their ships already destroyed, or are unable to break through the Cresian navy.  

The Cresians pay a heavy price, but they are victorious.


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## RangerWickett (Feb 11, 2003)

No familiars for the Jonga.  The Cresians have the lion's share of animal support in this scenario.  Plus you posted a little too late, since I'd already started typing by the time you posted, so I missed all those wonderful ideas.  We'll see if we can fit them in next time.


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## Zaruthustran (Feb 11, 2003)

I would have gotten away with it, if it weren't for that (pesky (and long) animal friendship criticism...

Well, maybe next time, if the Jongans are in any shape at all to counterattack. They've got to learn to *not* attack where the Cresians are strong. Ah well.

-z, who somehow missed that the druids were able to wildshape. That ability somewhat nullifies the advantage of Familiar recon.


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## Ciaran (Feb 11, 2003)

So, whither Jonga and Cresia?

I think it’s worth noting a few things about Jongan culture.  They already have swords, shields and military formations.  Thus, unlike the Cresians, this isn’t their first war; it isn’t even their third or fourth.  This is a culture that has clearly been through a lot of violent conflict in the past.  In addition, they’re embarking on a war of annihilation with a distant, non-aggressive culture over the death of a single Jongan.

And what was he doing in Cresia, anyway?  It strains credulity that he shows up on the one day a year that the Cresian beastmen are participating in their ritual hunt, just in time to be slaughtered.  And he did not come alone; the Jongans knew where to send their ships to retaliate, so he must have been part of a group, one that managed to enter and move through Cresia without being noticed by the Cresians.

My theory?  This isn’t the first Jongan war of annihilation.  The islanders send out war parties to explore other lands, and when they encounter another culture, they spy on the natives for a while, and then send out a wave of ships to slaughter the natives and take their stuff.  Maybe they had a justification for this practice in the past -- the Jongan islands may once have been home to a dozen warring tribes, making it necessary to do unto the neighboring tribe before they do you in -- but now, they’re unabashed aggressors.  It’s only now, in Cresia, that they’ve bitten off more than they can chew.

Does this seem like a reasonable analysis of the situation?


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## RangerWickett (Feb 11, 2003)

Ciaran said:
			
		

> *Does this seem like a reasonable analysis of the situation? *




It certainly makes me seem like less of a fool for what I decided would happen.


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## s/LaSH (Feb 12, 2003)

The question, then, is "What do the Cresians do next?"

Do they hang back and recoup their losses? After being invaded, what, four or five times now, I'm getting the distinct idea that they're a little bleeped off and would quite enjoy putting an end to the Jongans once and for all. However, they themselves have suffered heavy losses...

Do they charge in and try to kill every Jongan they can see? Again, doubtful; they've learned enough about war to know that the Jongans would defend their homeland just as furiously as the Cresians did, and losses would doubtless be hideous; victory is not necessarily assured, even accounting for fog tactics and scurvy sea dogs (arr).

My bet would be on the Cresians demanding surrender from the Jongans. However many prisoners they took during the Battle of the Mists (not guaranteed to be many, seeing that the most effective combatants at that time were ravening beastmen), they can use them as hostages. I'm certain that a large number of Jongan lords would have been at the forefront of the battle, and would be very valuable to the Jongan people.

So the Cresians send one ship back to Jonga, perhaps cutting off the right hand of every man on board (they can use magic to heal the wound itself, although regeneration is centuries in the future, so they don't die on the table, so to speak). They send the message with them: "Surrender to our rule now. Convert to the worship of the Dog God, give us all your weapons, raze your forges, and institute a sizable Cresian garrison in a governor's fortress on your island, and you get your men back. If you don't, well, we send them back in pieces."

It's a harsh tactic, but remember, the Cresians have a history of punishment (the original schism between fire-users and the ancestors of the Dog Cult in Part One, as you recall). I fully expect they'd do it.

But do the Jongans actually surrender? Well, from their perspective, they just lost nearly their entire army. The Cresians are confident enough to demand surrender. But they're still fortified, they still have some elites held back, and they could guess that they hurt the Cresians fairly badly. The key question is, How badly? And, Can the troops they have remaining take out our defences? I think it could go either way, even considering the pride of a warlike people. As Worf once said: "There is no honour in defeat."

Of course, with the entire Jongan army defeated in the Cresian heartland, the Cresians are likely to acquire themselves some bronze weapons of their own. They're just lying there! Grab some shields, some swords, maybe some pikes or halberds if they were in use, and train all soldiers in their use (I expect that there would be more Jongan soldiers defeated, lethally or otherwise, than there are Cresians at this point). So the Cresians suddenly have technological equivalence with the Jongans (although they can't sustain it beyond the next few battles).

In a morale-sapping display, a Cresian ship can be pulled (I wrote 'sail' then realised the Cresians don't use 'em) past the Jongan barricade with bronze shields fastened to the sides, just to demonstrate how cool they are.

I think that, at this point, the Cresians are well past dismissing bronze on religious grounds. They've been on the recieving end for ten years, and now that they've got a huge supply of weapons and armour to their credit, they're quite willing to employ them for their own ends, even if they can't make the stuff... and they'll be more willing to research metallurgical techniques once they realise how useful this stuff is. Even if they don't use it in war, someone's going to hammer a sword into a plough, and say, "Hey, this is much better than this old wooden thing!". Metallic revolution is mere decades away... unless they start breeding darkwood (DMG pg243), of course.

Darkwood itself could be developed by the priesthood by breeding and modifying hardwood trees. If they've been doing this since the war started (noting the effectiveness of Jongan armour technology), then they're probably beginning to reap the benefits about now... namely spears that are more effective (as masterwork weapons), shields that are less obstructive to the wielder (as -2 to armour check penalties), and of course enhanced ship hulls that are easier to haul and thus faster than their Jongan counterparts. While not well suited to slashing weapons or armour, darkwood is definitely an advantage to the Cresians. It's still only as tough as wood, though... the main advantage is in lightness.

From there, I'm guessing that tougher woods would be developed, but only over the next few hundred or thousand years... possibly woods that concentrate metal, like copperwood or the more advanced ironwood. But, for now, darkwood is as good as it gets. If it even gets.

PS: RW... what's that in your sig about d20 comics? I've been meaning to ask but forgot.


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Feb 12, 2003)

Yeah,
     As I said earlier I think the next evolution for the societies really depends on the Cressians ability to capture and integrate a large section of Jongans.
     If that happens I can easily see the Cressians developing a metal culture, but otherwise I think they're kind of screwed.  Metal culture is really hard to develop without trade or cultural exchange on a pretty massive scale.  Once you've got it development is fairly easy, but the basic principles are very hard to develop or even acquire.  And there is the issue of whether or not the Cressians even have access to the proper ores.  Ironwood looks like an increasingly attractive alternative.
     At this point I do have a couple of questions/observations.
     It seems to me that the Jongans are a lot less isolated than the Cressians.  What happens with regard to the rest of their international relations as they suddenly become increasingly changed by conflict with the Cressians?
    I mean when the Knossians or what not show up at the Jongan island and see that the ports are all inland and the forests are all burned down they'd be stupid not to take advantage of the situation by either aiding the Jongans or contacting the Cressians.  
   If there are other nations the Jongans are at war with then that goes double.  When fewer Jongan raiders show up, that's when you begin contemplating a counterattack or at least building your own navy.


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## Ciaran (Feb 12, 2003)

I think we should leave the question of other neighboring cultures to RangerWickett.  However, given their track record, I think we can safely say that the Jongans will come up short in the friendly relations department.


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## Tonguez (Feb 12, 2003)

Personally I think its time for Closure on the Cressian-Jongan Neolitihic-Bronze Age and time for a leap forward to Turn 3.

SO RW what is it going to be? - Iron Age perhaps 

and are we sticking with the Cressian Empire?


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Feb 12, 2003)

Ciaran said:
			
		

> *I think we should leave the question of other neighboring cultures to RangerWickett.  However, given their track record, I think we can safely say that the Jongans will come up short in the friendly relations department. *




I didn't mean to suggest that anything should be otherwise.  Merely interested in suggesting the possible 'global' consequences of this conflict.


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## RangerWickett (Feb 12, 2003)

I'm ready to move forward, with an assumption that there's maybe one or two small skirmishes, enough for the Cresians to steal some women and weaponsmiths before they realize they don't have enough manpower right now to wipe them out.  I'm not personally too clear on how technology developed historically after bronze age levels, so perhaps someone more historically-knowledgable would like to take the reigns for the logistical aspects of this upcoming conflict.

As for the conflict itself, we've already explored summon spells, and we ended up with some interesting uses for charm creature spells for primitive 'sailing', so maybe we should go forward to something with large-scale warfare.  In a few more hundred years (or less? historians, help me out), the Cresians have expanded beyond their simple delta flat, having a country that spans over 400 miles wide, including the Jonga island, which was assimilated into their culture maybe a few decades after the initial conflict, because the Cresians' homeland was more fertile.  They also conquered or assimilated other countries as they came across them, since few were as experienced in fighting as they were.

The Cresians eventually ran into other peoples who were not hostile enough to provoke invasions, or too strong for them to want to fight, and so now we have a more familiar map of nations, with a sea to the south, and one nation each to the east, west, and north.  Of course there are occasional conflicts, but there hasn't been a huge war, the kind that changes borders dramatically, for a long while.

Now we're going to get to more field-based tactics, and less "How can we rape and pillage most effectively?"  With the new conflict, we'll have armies meeting to fight in huge groups of tens of thousands at a time.  I'm no historian, but in case that seems a little iffy to you, I know for a fact that Alexander the Great had armies upwards of 500,000 men, so 10 or 20 thousand is really not that much.

So, what nifty tactics do we want for the next conflict?  We still have the existing Cresian skills:  the 'fog of war,' shapeshifting warriors (now improved to a fine art, with very few berserkers), control of animals and plants, and howling magic to deafen their foes.  They are now willing to use fire to make weapons and armor, and to destroy buildings and structures, but their magic users don't seem to be able to create powerful magical fire; it seems to not mesh with their way of magic.  Also, their religion generally makes them less willing to burn fields and woodlands.  They also learned magic to charm people and empower their armies from the Jonga.

The opponents in the next conflict will probably again have superior technology, since we seem to primarily be letting the Cresians have the fun magic-wise.  A few Jonga may have traveled from their homeland before it was conquered, and shared their skills with fireballs and counter-magic.  On a more mundane side, what do you think about cavalry for the opponents, and maybe the spear wall?  A spear wall is a good way to avoid being caught off guard by Cresians sneaking through the fog.

Tell me what you think we should do next.


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## s/LaSH (Feb 13, 2003)

I'm no pre-Roman civilisation buff myself, so I can't really comment on the state of technology. However, as magic screws up the sequence of technological development, there are no guarantees that fantasy history will parallel our own...

Anyway, the new setup does seem ripe for one particular scenario: politicking. You've got four nations including the Cresian Empire, and I suspect each of them will have their own rough specialty (the Cresians with their magic, the Other Side with their technology, and perhaps a couple of others with other things... necromancy? flying horses? living in caves? keeled ships with sails? I don't know).

When a war breaks out between the Cresians and the Other Side, what are the other two nations doing? Are they saying 'hey, we're completely unconcerned and will stay out of this'? Is one or both interested in stopping the war so the victor won't start eyeing them next? Do they encourage the war so they can conquer the weakened survivors and move on the fourth nation? Do they ally with one side or the other? Publically, or in secret?

The larger political landscape is going to be the most interesting part of this new war. Oh, and the idea of vast armies clashing, Hippocrates-style... that's just cool. I'll have to crack out my ancient texts at some point, I can tell. (Even if the Father Of All Historians does record with great gravity tales of flying snakes and the crystal construction technology of Nigeria.)

This setting is already getting quite interesting, with shapechangers dominating the battlefield, the employment of short-duration summons in short, furious battles, and the cetacean navy... I can only see it getting weirder as we go along. Is this the true face of a D&D world? If so, I like it.


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Feb 13, 2003)

mmmm, pre-Roman civilization....

Technology changes slowly during this period.  Interesting innovations can be made and lost pretty easily, but the chance of them catching on an doing much is fairly slim.  Different nations are going to have very different ways of doing things, but technology gaps aren't going to exist as we know them.   There will pretty much just be different ways of doing things.  

Agricultural and nautical technology are limited exceptions.  People with Triremes and better horses have significant advantages over those who don't.

I'm reading *Herodotus* this very instant!  Or rather I have been reading him for a week or two alongside all the other things I have to read or choose to read.  

He's really more interested in culture than anything else, however, for the real classical conflicts I would hit Thucydides.

Xenophon's March up the Country, Anabasis, is a military classic with astounding details and insight into what it takes to actually march an army from one place to another place.  Alexander's grand strategy for conquering Persia is said to have been inspired by this account.  It's also pretty short and there are easy to read translations.

Though, again, this is a situation much removed from those specifically, and wonderfully, Greek historians.

In the ancient world army size and kindom development can vary wildly.  The armies of up to half a million did occur, but they were pretty rare and required Imperial power to put together.

Ten to twenty thousand is a pretty impressive number in its own right, but is a good number for large military efforts during periods with a fair amount of prosperity and organized large kingdoms who spend some time in conflict.

Four hundred years is some time, but makes sense given how largely unpopulated this world seems to be and the inclusion of the Jongans.

What's the common Cressian city or cultural center pattern like, and what are the notable exceptions?

They have some nice coral fortifications by this point?


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## Tonguez (Feb 13, 2003)

Check out this summary of Shang Culture (China BC 1500) is it just me or does that sound strangely similar to the Cressians! It has a seperation of its Rural and Urban life. Rural peasants live primitive lives using wooden implements to tend the soil and paying tribute to the local Lord (Druid/Dog Warrior) whilst within the walls of its cities dwell the Urban nobility and also the main religious functionaries (Clerics). 

Okay here we find a useful Chronology and some interesting information on early civilisations which we can use as base fodder for our 'experiment

BC 3500
This is when 
Sumer - the First Civilisation arose and saw invention of Writing and the Wheel. 

By BC 3000 we have invention of the 
Egyptian Square-rigged Sail 


BC 2600
Marks the Egyptian Old Kingdom withs its Pyramids and Hieroglyphs.

I would suggest that this is about were our Story (ie the Cressian-Jongan Conflict) finds us.

The Cressian Empire has begun to expand and incorporates the Islands of Jongan the Hills of Fire and has now made contact with a number of other empires 

_Note: Only the Sumerians had Iron at this point and it does not become widely distributed till about BC 1000_ - ergo only one of the Civilisation met by the Cresians should have Iron and even then it should be very rare. - but does mean Birth of the Iron Age

One of the civilisations which might be interesting to meet is 
the 
Minoan Culture BC 2000 - the First European Civilisation and home of the Minotaur!
Minoans appear to have had only female goddesses (no/few gods) which makes sense for  the Cressians too


Another interesting facet of this era is that it saw the rise of both Hinduism and its associated Aesthetics- so we could have religious rivalry and both PSIONICS and MONKS coming into the scenario too


PS it is not until BC 330 that we encounter
Alexander the Great


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## Tonguez (Feb 13, 2003)

The pre-Iron Age era saw the rise of fortified cities, chariots, and large infantry units. 

We already know that the Cressians have a history of Druidic magic and summoning but are reluctant to develop forging techniques and I suspect must metalwork is done either by non-Cressian citizens 9ie Jongans) or gain through trade.The Cressians have mainly used small skirmisher units in the past and larger units only rarely.

I think that at least one of the outher nations should thus get better Infantry and use of Chariots (increase speed and mobility on open ground) etc

It would also be interesting to see what happens when more powerful Evocations are introduced to combat - so can we have a nation of specialist Arcane Magic using Heavy Artillery.




Also so check out these Ancient Artifacts for possible inspriation on our Tech vs Magic in War scenarios


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## Ciaran (Feb 13, 2003)

Dr. Strangemonkey makes lots of very good points about early civilizations that I’d like to see applied in this thread.  Go Dr. S!

In reference to the discussion of army size, I should note that, beyond a certain point, army size ceases to have a significant impact on the outcome of a battle.  Additional troops allow you to outflank and encircle the opponent, and give you additional reserves to throw into the fray when your front line troops start to tire or buckle; but the determining factor in any battle is morale.  The vast majority of all battlefield deaths only occur *after* the troops start to rout, allowing their opponents to cut them down as they run.  And once the first soldier in a unit loses his nerve and flees, the result tends to be infectious; who wants to be the last one standing against the enemy?

This is why leadership and training are so important.  A numerically smaller force can easily trounce a far larger army, even with slight technological (or magical!) inferiority, if they can hold the line until the enemy’s morale breaks.  Magically, this should lead to an interesting sequence of developments based on morale and enchantment, starting with spells like _bless_ and _remove fear_.  The ultimate result of this path would be spells that remove all fear or sense of self-preservation from one’s entire army, causing one’s troops to fight to the last man.

- Eric


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## Ciaran (Feb 13, 2003)

(double post)


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## Tonguez (Feb 14, 2003)

Okay another useful Link Late Bronze Age Warefare 


and importantly for us a System of rating Tactics and various 'Weapon Systems (ie Units)

Thus 







> Firepower (rate of fire and destructive power of fire).
> 
> Effective range (range at which firepower is destructive, as well as diminution of destructive power as range increases or decreases).
> 
> ...




eg it rates Archer Infantry (simple bows) thus



> Firepower = High. Maximum rate of 12 missiles per minute (arrows) with ability to penetrate all but heavy leather and bronze armour, and shields.
> 
> Effective range = Medium. 60 to 100 yards against “soft” targets and around 30 to 40 yards against “harder” targets.
> 
> ...





I might just go back and do a rating on the Units we've already covered (in the Cressian-Hill people and Cressian-Jonga conflicts)

oh and consider this a BUMP


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## ajanders (Feb 14, 2003)

*What the Cresian Army Looks Like*

Unless the Cresians have become a warlike people, likely they've followed the tradition of most countries not threatened for generations and reduced the size of their army.
Likely their standing force consists of the shapechanging warriors enhanced with buffing spells that came from the Jongan culture: a combination likely to be devastatingly effective in small-scale combat.
Think about: try a group of, say, first level ranger werewolves backed up with bull's strength, barkskin, and a commander 1/1 ranger/bard to inspire courage.  Four of them could drive most mundane foes off in three or four rounds, and only the fast ones would be able to evade them.  Combine bestial senses with ranger tracking and nothing could escape them unless it could fly.

When and if they try to raise a militia again, it'll likely be a little harder than it was, as hunting is no longer an integral part of their society.
On the plus side, they've likely developed magical enhancements to agriculture and animal husbandry: the militia may not be skilled, but they'll likely be warmly dressed in wool from their friendly Dire Sheep and well fed on Plant Growth fertilized fruits, veggies, and grains.  (That may be why people go to war against them, in fact: jealousy at their high standard of living.)

As they have a close connection with nature, I am of two minds about the development of cavalry.  They will either regard animals as creatures not to be casually abused by being thrown into war or as creatures to be allied with.
Essentially, expect either no cavalry or elite priestly cavalry riding really exotic and nasty animals and beasts...like pegasi, or luposphinxes.  Or awakened animals like stags or boars.
I'm frankly inclined to suggest the latter option myself: some people like Rose Priests, I like Stag Knights.  There's no scientific reason: I just think it would look really cool.

But if you want another culture to conflict with, may I suggest we take a page from ancient history?  I vote for a culture based on psionics where the humans are ruled by the psionic gemstone dragons out of the MMII...complete with giant psionic monoliths to store psychic power.
Working out how those two duke it out should be interesting indeed.


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## Zephyrus (Feb 14, 2003)

something brought up before and bares rementioning expecially in light of the comment just made about Cressian Calvery.

the presence of humanoids, beasts/magical beasts and other  monsterous creatures. I think one nation (perhase a bit cliche) should be a dominantly of another race more than just ruled by another race like the suggested psionic dragons. On the down side most of the psionic dragons are anti-social or agressively territorial (according to their descriptions) or they are tolerant or even friendly but non-involvists/observers/sage-like.  Also such a nation might be perhaps too.. powerful unless it was a sole dragon of only Adult to Mature Age. at least enough peopel might have enough power to take it down if threatened. 

I think the cressians should have at least one allied nation of the other three. perhaps the other acting as isolationists (the psionics) and the monsterous race-nation agressive. on the other side of things maybe flip flop that. the monsterous race-nation are isolationists and the psionics are the agressives. perhaps using their psionic abilities to create legions of non-psionic slaves or puppets to their powers (or maybe these psi's are githyani and are monsterous race but its a bit cliche to have the monster race always the badie).

I imagine Cressian's developing massive very open cities. a small city could cover as much ground as a typical metropolis. That the cressisans would concentrate on these few large area covering cities perhaps even after a long enough time becoming united city states (depending on the politics of their evolution). the cities having hundreads of farmlettes and almost seeming like the city itself is composed of dozens and dozens of towns that share borders. The city acting as both farm and wildlife preserve with a few small urbanized clusters. again roads are lined with briars  and the the cities are lined with concentric rings/layers of thick briars. Crossroads and in populated area's these will be roses isntead of simple thorny thickets to appease the populance as far as apperances. the premis being that at the heart of the city being the most dense but very open construction by others standards and provide a means to slow any possible enemy so that they can be harrassed and taken appart on the Cressians terms. the openness of the cities serving both a tactical advantage as a social and moral advantage. the cressians feel safe in their cities and by making these cities cover vast area's with all their farmland and such occuring within and with their resources not limited to being on the outskirts of t heir villages but rather the 'city' encomapasing everything a greater national and natural togetherness forms.

I would think that thanks to the druids and following the jongan wars they would develop a clear if not almost modernized lumber plan organized forestry where they grew lumber for the express purpose of construction etc while leaving natural forests alone. farmletts being tended to periodically by druids to produce prolly an extra crop each year without overwealming the soil. Homes being made of natural materials like wood or clay brick and alowed to grow over with ivy or vines.  

getting back to what I started saying about the animals and such I think the cressians would have considerable alliance with nature and its animals. awakens animals as well as befriended and trained animals applenty. I suspect they would gather animals and use them widly in even day to day chores, working closely with them. creating habbitats and such for these animals to thrive and be comfortable expecially with the agressive and preditory species so they were out of the way of the people but could still roam free much of the time. I can easily see wolf packs lead by awakened wolf alpha pairs having hteir wolf packs roam the boarders. I imagine quite possible the cressian's developing a close connection with horses as a means of transportion. with such open cities transportation of goods and supplies would become tricky. Horses are suffiently docile yet fast and strong enough to fill a need for a very versitle beast of burden. I think it would be awsome if possible in the approaching conflict for the Cressians to develop Centaurs!  I think a neat or nice aspect of the Cressians will be the graces of a monsterous race now and then in responce to need or circumstances. I even wonder if perhaps the Cressians develop the other lycanthrope types as their culture grows Or if perhaps that is what sparks another conflict other lycanthrope types. With Druids and wild-shape as well as Werewolves the cultural evolution into monsterous creatures is quite possile be them the other shapeshifter types or more fixed transitions like hybrid races such as Centaurs and Wemic's this could be a reason for the city-states... or perhaps these creature occured naturally and the Cressians welcomed and intigrated them into their societies.


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## Ciaran (Feb 14, 2003)

I vote that we leave psionics out of the Fantasy Arms Race; they aren't in the core rules, we have enough to talk about that _is_ in the core rules, and I personally don't care for them.  But I'll leave that up to RangerWickett to decide.

We should probably discern what effects the Jongan war has had on Cresian society and government.  At the very least, the beastmen probably hold a higher position than before.  There’s also the question of whether other gods are worshipped in Cresia, given that they’ve conquered and absorbed populations that worshipped other deities.  I’d say that we’ll see a pantheon developing, with the other gods being named the children of the Dog-Mother and Field-Father.

Ajanders is correct that the Cresians would probably reduce their standing army after a long peace, though the beastmen are likely to remain in force, and may well have had an impact on the leadership of Cresia.  I expect that the   They would also be unlikely to have a broad range of new military breakthroughs; they haven't had much in the way of war since the Jongan conflict, and for the most part, they are both traditionalist and peaceful in nature.  What new advances they've picked up have probably come from other cultures that they've absorbed over the years, and from what they've seen used by other cultures.  Given their range, I expect that the Cresians are a major trading power of the late Bronze / early Iron Age.  I'd include the following tricks in the Cresian bag:

1) Cavalry.  The Cresian affinity for animals makes this the most favored military development, though they are unlikely to develop the technologies required for heavy cavalry (stirrups and so forth).  Given their druidic talents, even if the Cresians don't come up with this themselves, once they see cavalry used by another culture, they can easily develop a gentling regimen based on _animal friendship_ and the like.

2) Chariots.  While they aren't all that advantageous in and of themselves, chariots may prove to make excellent traveling platforms for Cresian spellcasters.  Of course, this requires the development of the wheel, which may be a bit beyond them at the moment...

3) Unit formations and co-ordination.  They will have picked up a few tricks from the Jongans in this regard, which will serve them in good stead when dealing with technologically superior opponents.

4) Shipboard rams.  After having whales and the like knock holes in enemy ships, it won’t be long before a bright Cresian (probably of Jongan ancestry) sticks a metal whale-head on a ship’s prow and takes a shot at ramming an enemy vessel.

Now, here are some things that other nations may have, and that they Cresians probably don't have yet:

1) Bows.  Archery is going to have a major impact on the early fantasy battlefield, one that shouldn't be underestimated.  With little armor available as yet, arrowstorms can slaughter troops relatively easily under the right conditions; and the Cresians' beastmen and animal allies have no real defense at all.

2) Shield walls.  The Jongans used a primitive version of this, but they never got the opportunity to develop it properly, and the Cresians never thought to develop it themselves.  Given the threat of archery, though, they'd better catch on quickly...

3) Phalanxes.  From the Greek phalanx to the Swiss hedgehog, arrays of polearms have proven to be incredibly effective against less organized opposition.  The Cresian troops have at least a modicum of discipline (picked up from the Jongans), but that may not be enough to get through a phalanx; and horses are shy of rows of spearpoints, being wiser in this respect than their riders.  

And some magical developments that other nations are likely to use:

1) Illusions.  Even the simplest of illusions can have a drastic effect on the battlefield.  Even a _silent image_ can be used to disguise a spiked pit or to conceal an ambuscade; either tactic can eliminate a dozen or more opponents with a single spell, while _change self_ or _invisibility_ allows a spy or assassin to penetrate Cresian lines with ease.  The illusionist culture really doesn’t need anything else to hold its own against the Cresians.

2) Scrying.  Once spells like _detect thoughts_, _clairvoyance_ and _scry_ come along, no secret is safe from the enemy; and as military forces have reached the point of clear chains of command, all you have to do is insinuate a scrying sensor into the enemy general’s tent in order to lay bare the strategy of the entire enemy force.

3) Clerical battlefield magics.  Clerics have a number of low-level spells that are broadly useful in combat.  The most notable are _bless_ and _bane_, which can affect large numbers of troops and have a strong effect on morale.  _Obscuring mist_ and _darkness_ can alter a battlefield, while spells like _divine favor_, _shield of faith_ and _magic weapon_ allow a warrior priest to smite enemies of the faith as well as any warrior.  I expect that, at some point, an expansionistic theocracy will arise that will make good use of these low-level clerical magics on the battlefield.

4) Created monsters.  Unlike Zephyrus, I don't see the Cresians as the sort of folk to create hybrids like centaurs; that would be too much a violation of the existing natural order.  But another, less scrupulous culture might use magic to create new species to serve their needs.  Minotaurs in particular would make good servants: they're strong, they're enduring, and they eat grass!  And for combat, they might develop warrior-creatures with lots of natural armor (lizardfolk?), which would have a strong impact on the battlefield in an era where the shield is the best armor that's generally available.

Any thoughts?

- Eric

(Edit: added reference to created monsters.)


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## Roman (Feb 14, 2003)

Good info Tonguez and a really interesting thread to read.


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Feb 14, 2003)

I would think that the Cressians are likely to develop cavalry or chariots, or at least perfect them, before anyone else does.

Personally, I vote for including Chariots somewhere if not everywhere.  Afterall, cavalry takes a while to get off the ground. 

A.) They're cool  

B.) if you're the Cressians you can chain all sorts of neat things to them.

C.) you put a wizard on them and protect the wizard.

I want to possit some guesses on how Cressian society develops in between the Jongan Assimilation and the current scenario.

First of all, since the Druids ended up on top of Cressian soceity, I'd like to possit that some of the long term forecasts I made earlier had some effect:

1.) Cressian society is very broad and deep rather than highly structured, diverse, and hierarchical.
   The basic social unit is the village, each of which belongs to a larger group of villages.  Each village in the group shares a lot of community property within itself, though most people live in family units, and social structure and arrangements within the village are fairly fluid.  Government is done primarily by consensus though there are individual systems to modify this and everyone has the right to take matters to a higher, druidic, authority and must do so in cases of serious crime.  Each group shares maintenance and use of certain infrastructures such as strongholds, storehouses, caravans, guild posts, large religious structures, armories, militia, and roads or canals that lead to the hub cities.  The Group is the smallest formal political unit, and runs democratically off of representatives from the various villagers and the advice or authority of their local guild posts.
    The guild posts are sort of my term for the larger and more formal 'guilds' of the druid, warrior, scribe, and wanderer.  These organizations are all united under the church, but are made up of people with different types of training and distinct responsibilities.  They recruit from the villages but basically form their own societies and are in charge of creating the larger infrastructures of the nation and keeping the village groups linked to the nation as a whole.  Each guild has its own structure and rules though the druids are generally given prestige as the wisest and best connected to the higher church authority.
    druid guild members are in charge of maintaining the health of the landscape and the populace, they lead most religious ceremonies, and form of the judges of church courts and advisors of democratic gatherings.  The field father is their patron.
    warrior guild members are in charge of maintaining the armories and training the milities.  they are bailiffs and policeman in the courts and ushers for the democratic gatherings.  The war dog is their patron.
    scribe guild members are in charge of history, accounting for the economy of the nation, taxes, forecasting, and arcane magic.  They are in charge of stronghold design and storehouses. They represent the branch of the church into which the druids dumped the cooperating members of the Jongan traditions.  In the church they could be given power to encourage development, but also watched carefully.  At this point they are fully assimilated, but no represent the second most powerful arm of the church.  They serve as the scribes/advocates for the courts and the recorders/heralds for the democratic gatherings.  The lampwatcher, a Cressian interpretation of the Jongan fire diety, is thier patron.
   the wanderers are in charge of road design and protection, caravan guidance, trade, and stronghold and storehouse protection as well as general courier and information services.  They also help train the militias and patrol the wilderness areas surrounding and within the village group.  They plan the route and delivery of each village groups market caravan guided by the dictates of the other guilds and the village consensus.  They are the couriers and escorts of both the courts and the democratic gatherings.  Their patron is the lady of flowers and coral, a deity who developed out of the Cressians new respect for the rose lined roads and coral lined ports.

      Most Cressians are very proud of their way of life and nation.  The tail of their great wars with the Jongans have been mythologized into the wars of Rose and Fire in which the Jongans are seen as a people misguided by their sociopathic way of life into attacking the obviously morally superior Cressians.  The narrative claims that the Cressians learn to grow thorns to support themselves, but that the Jongans easily adopt to the Cressian way of life when they see the madness of their 'burning ways.'  Ethnic Jongans are occasionally the butt of jokes, but they have also bought the official view and are happily integrated into the society, aside form the occasional rebel who has heard and believed a secret oral history of the Jongan nation.  The courts are known as the meetings of the rose briars, and the democratic gatherings are known as the convocations of the Blooming flowers.  Both attract great attention from the whole village group, particularly as the courts are convened at every religious festival, and their are many, to adjudicate weddings, major property transfers, adoption into one of the guilds, and honors as well as criminal proceedings.  Memorial and initiation ceremonies are held at the flowerings which are called at the specific ceremonial moments, the first rose flowering being the most memorable, and whenever massive decisions must be made: canal changes, requests for militia aid, changes in the law, distributions of market funds, that sort of thing.

      The other major social structure in Cressia are the massive market cities.  These are fairly large urban centers, though by no means metropolitan the largest being 50,000 during the greatest religious ceremonies.  Population flows into the city on market and festival days, but the cities always contain the following institutions:
      Large temples for guild administration in the surrounding village groups.
      A prison.
      Vast fortifications and a large military encampment.
      Transportation hubs.
      Steady water supplies.
      Stockades into which and out of which large quantities of the animals that Cressia relies on are bred and processed.
      Magical research facilities including large gardens.
      Industrial complexes for building armor, heavy tools, ships, and specialty goods.
      Storehouses for emergency goods, such as grain for famine, extra weapons, material for rebuilding infrastructure, a treasury with reserve funds, etc.
      Giant libraries.
      Two central features:
        A vast and complex market area into which the goods of other market cities and the goods of the surrounding village groups flow.
        A giant complex of temples and palaces in which the leaders and support staff for the upper church hierarchy live, the gatherings of the local village group representatives are held, and the largest religious festivals and entertainment events occur.


       Overall Cressia has expanded slowly as the Cressians are careful to maintain the elaborate infrastructures that make their land fertile and that are the foundation of their defenses.  The Jongan isle is notably different from the Cressian mainland only in that the relgious centers of the Market cities are less developed and elaborate while the military and industrial aspects of Cressian life are even more centralized to the great cities.   The church has been careful to even the mix of Jongans and Cressians throughout the empire so as to lessen the threat of revolt or racial violence, a popular tactic in Bronze age civilizations, and careful to promote Cressians in the distinctly Jongan arcane branch of the church.  As a result Jongan members of the high church are far more likely to be encounted as people from the other guilds, though they are still a minority overall.

        The high church works hard to limit their work in government in such a way that their own power isn't threatened but that they still have plenty of time to devote to religious necesseties.  This is why the local governments are so democratic and the low church is so strong.  It's also why only members of the high church are likely to have any sort of global or cosmopolitan awareness.   The high church includes important and heroic members of the society from all walks of life.  While the clerical and druidic members have the greater prestige, there is no way the Cressian hierarchy is going to ignore the importance of the Wanderers sailors, the scribes, or the military.  Politics at the level of the high church can be pretty nasty, but the common emphasis on the importance of religion and religious ceremonies is a strong force for unity and peace.


        I based a lot of this on North American civilizations such as the Maya and the Inca who I feel are going to have a lot in common with the Cressians based on their conservative use of land the importance of religion in their empires.  Though I have also thrown in some Eastern Mediterranean/Fertile Crescent dynamics.  A bunch of Egypt in there.

       Militarily I think the Cressians are going to rock at defense and naval superiority.   I doubt they will be as good on the offensive, and other nations are likely to have superior battlefield tactics and large formations of elite units.  Still I think the Cressian use of light units and magical superiority will make them competitive overall.  Their strong central organization and broad social organization can have advantages and disadvantages for them.  Overall societal unity is a big plus.


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Feb 14, 2003)

Sorry about the long post, I just love this thread so much that I can't help but get carried away.

mmmm, high bronze age, and we can construct our very own Illiad, right here!


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## Tonguez (Feb 14, 2003)

Dr. Strangemonkey said:
			
		

> *Sorry about the long post, I just love this thread so much that I can't help but get carried away.
> 
> mmmm, high bronze age, and we can construct our very own Illiad, right here! *




I like that Dr. Strangemonkey i think I might have to adopt the culture outlined there and use it in a future game

What I am interested in atm though is the manner in which the Beastmen and any Awakened animals might 'fit' into this society, what will their status be and how will they be 'controlled' if such control is required. 

I like the image (in my mind) of a Gnoll-like Beastman walking through the city and being greeted as a hero by the Cressian citizens. They form a distinct - and distinctive - part of Cressian society and are well respected by the public at large.
None the less there is some fear of them and especially around the Festival of the Full Moon - which are the monthly Holy Days of the Dog Mother - when the Dog Warriors are required to gather in the Temple. 

Now what I am wondering is what is the political status of Dog Warrior 'beastmen?' do the Dog Warriors form a distinct 'Guild' having a semi-religious function - _hey Druidic paladins!_, are they dispersed across the general populace or are they something else?

Come to think of it what has happened to all the dogs born from the Dog Mother? Do these celestial dogs yet roam the cities unfettered and free to do as they choose?


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## Morgenstern (Feb 14, 2003)

This has been a great read, and I agree the current war is winding down. I'd like to see a few addendums to the course of events following the Battle of Mists.

On the mainland: The Cressians got hammered by fire. They have time and time again. So while the introduction of mist and rain inducing magics is the logical developement of the Field Father druid, the time has come to put the Fire Cult into play - a small group druids who abandon the proscription against the use of fire. They've been around for years, but as scattered individuals. The Battle of Mists brings them together and reaffirms their belief that bronze and flame are truely fit weapons for the gods. This group would be eager to snatch up the fallen Jonga weapons, and possibly make contact with the enemy.

Meanwhile, the Cressians won - proof positive of the superiority of the culture, and it's taboos. I think we should see a hardening of religious stricture. Undoubtedly the druid class are the saviors of all the Cressian people. They should firm up their political power, while rejecting many of the Jonga's inventions ("didn't save them, what do we need them for?"). Lessons learned from the war will shape the design of Cressian villages, and I think that the use of agressive plants will help fortify them with active sentries. The tree forts also seemed wildly successful and their use will be expanded, possibly leading to the development of larger, multi-tree fortresses. Plant-based poisons (derived initially from roses and nettles) are develped by the Field Father's servants, and offered to the Wolf Mother's creatures to help cement their common unity. These (weak) poisons come into use to bolster the elite lycanthrope warriors, making the Wolf Mother and her servants the policing arm of the society, possibly enforcing the dictates of the druids (and hounding the Fire Cult). The Wolf Mother's druids expand on the concept of using animal for mobility (learned from the whale-ships) and begin to field riding animal (I'm in favor of really big dear, but that's just the memories of Mononoke Hime talking ). Again, this is shared with the Field Father clergy, possibly with each group developing a limited number of mounted troops (FF use dear riders as messengers, WM using wolves as individual raider/champions).

The Cressians, flush with victory, launch a (hasty) attack on the invaders... Only to have it anihilated utterly.

Off shore: The Jonga's current leadership is in disarray. Their gamble to crush the mainlanders in a single blow has failed and now they are desparate. The continued power of divne magic of the primitives has bent or broken everything the Jonga have come up with.

Now is when the Clerics of the Rival Brothers come forward. The Flame Brother has always been respected, if not loved, as he who gave the Jonga crafts, like metal working and tactics like the Singers. Less respected by Jonga's warrior elite, the Ocean Brother was always the champion of the harvest, the controler of weather and the feeder of men. The tension between these two beliefs is what has spurred the Jongans on to battle so often with their neighbors. The long dominace of the Flame Brother comes to an end with the destruction of the army. When the retalitory fleet of the Cressians arives, the Ocean Brother gives his faithful a miracle, and the (small) fleet is destroyed, abruptly and decisively.

New leadership is installed (new generals, posibly a new royalty). The Jongans make their island a forbiden place, killing anything that even comes near it, but also forgoing their agression. Wizards and bards continue to work on fire spells, but the most important thing is dominating the sea surrounding the island. The Jongans will rise again, but in a new form...

...And the handful of Flame Priests and Flame worshiping wizards and singers among the old order's upper echlons? Driven out of course. Sent to the cursed mainland to die among the savages the stirred up.

So when Flame Priest and Fire Cult meet... Boom. An new faction that hates both sides, but has some of the most important secrets of each at their disposal. Now if they could just find some hill folk to enslave...


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## F5 (Feb 14, 2003)

Wow.  A LOT of great stuff, here.  I'm away from the thread for a few days, and...wow.  Great stuff.

Awakened cavalry...brilliant!  This makes sense for the animal-loving Cressians; they have been fighting alongside animals as long as they have existed as a people, and it makes sense that their Druidic war-priests would Awaken their companions when they have the power.  This would have a major impact on the effectiveness of mounted cavalry...the cavalry units are effective with or without a rider!  Imagine Cressian werewolves mounted on sentient Dire Stags.  The riders charge into formation, fighting from "horse"-back, then, once the enemy ranks are broken, they leap out of the saddle and tear into them.  Normally mounted cavalry can't dismount, since their horses would have bolted, or panicked, and generally been unable to cope with the battlefield without a rider.  Awakened cavalry could maintain tight formations with or without a rider (with the herd instincts of a deer, they'd probably be BETTER at holding a formation than their Cresian riders!).  Circle around to the enemy's flank, round up escapees, there are tons of tactical options open to them.  Add to this chariots carrying a Jongan mage and several bodyguards, and an elite Cressian force (even a small one) would be deadly.  They alrady have the tactics from their sea-chariots to fall back on, I don't think it would be a stretch for them to come up with land chariots.  And with Awakened mounts pulling them, you don't need a pilot (driver?  What do you call the guy that steers a chariot, anyway?  Charioteer?), so you can load them up entirely with combatants.

An application of assimilated Jongan mind-magic that would be deadly in massed combat: the Fear spell.  Targeted at key points in the enemy line, a few mages could cause them to break ranks and run.  And, as has been said earlier, once morale is lost, the battle is over.  In the century following the Battle of Mists and Fire, there's no real threat to the Cresians and they would probably keep a fairly small army (still able to field thousands of troops, but probably less than their neigbors).  With tactics like these available, though, I think they could get away with smaller armies.

I like Dr. Strangemonkey's four-guild arrangement for the Cressian government, and I think it would have some interesting results.    The Wanderer's Guild is what intrigues me the most.  As the people responsible for ommunication between outlying villages, they would probably take to mounted riders as well (since it allows them to move faster).  Maybe the "pony express" is made up of Awakened ponies, carrying messages from village to village?  This may be too much use of the Awaken spell, but it WOULD be tremendously useful to a people who rely on animals as much as the Cresians do.  The Wanderer's guild would also have strong naval presence, as explorers, and woud be most likely be the first-contact point with the Cresians' neigbors.  Lastly, the Wanderers would be most likely to develop long-range communication magic (maybe THEY unlock the secrets of scrying????)

The Dog-mother's Warrior guild would be the home of the beastmen.  I see them going in one of two directions.  They MIGHT maintain their status as blessed holy warriors, and have a status like medeival knights.  A bizarre court of lycnathropic nobles might form.  Immediately after the Jongan Wars, the beastmen would be recognized as war heroes, and given lavish rewards.  They would have been reluctant to give them up, and as powerful as they are, and obviously having the blessing of the Dog Mother, they would have the clout to hold onto it throughout the years.  Now, in times of relative peace, maybe the general populus is getting resentful of their erstwhile protectors?

The Scribe Guild, made up of predominantly assimilated-Jongans, might form an Academy, to teach new students the Arcane Magics of their ancestors, that their arts wouldn't be forgotten.  The Cresians would suport this, and gradually come to be the masters of both Arcane and Druidic magic.  A very powerful monopoly.

Morgenstern, I could definitely see disaffected members of the Cressian population (maybe frustrated by the favored treatment of the Beastmen) joining up with dissadent, fugitive Jongan fire mages.  The deep caverns and tunnels of the Hill People (who have lingered there out of sight and biding their time for centuries) would make an ideal hiding place for them.  All three factions would be united in their hatred of the Cresian Shapechangers.  Maybe this is the group that, after centuries of aborted efforts and 11-th hour reconsiderations by both Cresian and Jongan, finally goes through with a Summoning, and makes contact with an Outer Plane.  They hate the Cresian shapechangers so much, what might the demons transform THEM into?


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## F5 (Feb 14, 2003)

I, too, apologize for the long post.  This topic is just TOO COOL!

RangerWickett, we're all eager to hear what kind of neigboring countries the Cresians' explorers might find.  If they're going to stand up to these bruisers, the new nation must have SOMETHING wicked up its' sleeve...


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## Ciaran (Feb 14, 2003)

I hate to be a stickler about terminology…  no, who am I kidding?  I love to be a stickler about terminology.    In any case, we absolutely should *not* be talking about “guilds” at this stage of the game, and especially not among the Cresians.  A guild is a group of craftsmen brought together by shared economic interest; it’s closest in nature to the modern labor union.  Cresian society would have nothing like it, and the use of the word calls up all sorts of inappropriate references.

The Cresians could easily have various orders, brotherhoods, societies or priesthoods…  but not guilds.  OK?

And yes, RangerWickett, we’re all waiting for you to give us more information on the new scenario; I’d recommend starting a new thread.  You’re still in charge; there’s no surrendering the reins of power for you!

- Eric


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## RangerWickett (Feb 14, 2003)

Too much stuff!  Okay, I'll set aside about an hour tonight after I get back from DareDevil to reply to this thread and post ideas, because there's a lot of stuff to pick and choose from.

A few quick thoughts, though.

No centaurs among the Cresians.  They might breed stronger animals, but no biomancy yet.  Also, from the climate described (river delta, fairly lush), I'm not sure if you'd really see stags in this area.  But hey, if a group of Stag Knights had a celebration, would it be a stag party?  

Cresians can have cavalry within the allotted time span.  Horses are most likely, unless you can think of something else?  Great wolves?  Deer?

Very very few animals would be awakened.  Maybe just a few dozen, though that's not considering that sentient creatures have been created for at least several decades, so perhaps some pairs of awakened animals bred to produce offspring.

I like the idea about the capital city being sprawling, with actual farmland inside it, and lots of thornbushes and such.  It's not so much a city, just a nicely organized swath of countryside, with large walls built in two or three concentric rings.  It's not really highly defensible, because the walls are really too big to defend them in the entirety, but aesthetically, the arrangment pleases me.  (We need an official name for the capital city.)

The Cresians assimilated the Jonga, and a few other nearby societies, though most of the others didn't require as much effort and conflict.  Some Jonga of course fled, and there's certainly bitterness and resentment in some areas, so don't think this country's a utopia.

The Cresians do use bronze now.  Because they know that they have rivals in neighboring countries, they keep an army of a few thousand, including several hundred cavalry, and a few groups of Beastmen.  (Do we have an official name for them too?)

I'll post more later.


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Feb 14, 2003)

Ciaran said:
			
		

> *I hate to be a stickler about terminology…  no, who am I kidding?  I love to be a stickler about terminology.    In any case, we absolutely should not be talking about “guilds” at this stage of the game, and especially not among the Cresians.  A guild is a group of craftsmen brought together by shared economic interest; it’s closest in nature to the modern labor union.  Cresian society would have nothing like it, and the use of the word calls up all sorts of inappropriate references.
> 
> The Cresians could easily have various orders, brotherhoods, societies or priesthoods…  but not guilds.  OK?
> 
> ...




Oh, I very much agree.  The only reason I was using the term guild is because I wanted something wildly inappropriate enough to be almost generic.  Plus I thought it would be easier to add religious implications to guilds than economic applications to cults or orders.  

I like your suggestion for societies, but what we really need are colorful new terms and titles.

Something I forgot to point out is that nearly all of the more 'sacred' members of Cressian society such as the Celestial Dogs and wolf men would probably live in the 'market' cities.  I think the raging beast warriors would probably occupy be organized into something like the Jaguar and Eagle knights of Aztec/Maztican society.  There would probably a large sacred enclosure through which they could safely run wild.  I love the idea of the Celestial Dogs freely roaming anywhere.

There's a book called Shardik that describes a very primitive culture with a sacred bear.  An important part of the bear cult is that the bear be allowed near total freedom so that the religious might better interpret his actions.  The book deals with the bad things that happen when that freedom isn't maintained.

An earlier post also mentioned that the Cressians' would develop spread out cities the size of modern metropoli, and I very much agree.

I could easily see the area of village groups surrounding a market city equaling something like a large modern city such as the Dallas/FortWorth metroplex, particularly if they had a well developed canal system.  The complex surrounding the first ancient religious city might be the size of the orginal nation with several feeder market cities and a market time population reaching numbers of half a million or more. 

I also think the idea of the druids developing systematic forestry is absolutely dead on.  Many ancient and medieval cultures had very advanced theories and systems of land management.  Often far superior to the systems that were in place in the early part of the modern period.  In the Southwest people are still studying Pueblo soil conservation techniques, and Californians certainly profit from very old traditions of systematic burning when they bother to practice them.

I love the idea of awakened animals as more or less fully enfranchised members of the Cressian nation.  I can really see them associated with the various societies, something that would directly impact thier utility and give the societies an increased sense of mystery and prestige within the larger social structure.  I mean you already know that Flower Brother Renhaws is special because he can move thickets without disturbing their branches, but you really know it when he speaks to his raven as an equal and the raven talks back.

The possibilities for chariots that people are talking about are just amazing!  I have no idea why this hasn't been developed in a product before.  Mage chariots should be something every adventurer should know and fear.


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## Tonguez (Feb 14, 2003)

Some suggestions for other Nations

1. Scythia - The Land of Iron, Scythians are the only culture with Iron, a well disciplined military structure and less reliance on magic. Probably the most advanced Military nation and have chariots, heavy infantry and seige weapons. Oh and give them Giants too (ie Large size creatures so we test the effects of reach and rockthrowing and stuff...)

2. Kem - the Magiocracy where powerful Scorcerers  hold power (no Wizards as yet)and Arcane magics - from Illusion to Fireballs- are freely used in combat

3. Knossos (Minos)- The island Nation settled by the rebel Jongans/Cressians. The Druids of this Nation did turn to Biomancy and have created Minotaur, Centaur and Merfolk soldiers. They use other magics that involve enhancing or transforming creatures (This is to introduce Monster Scenarios in warfare)

4. Aryas (Indus Valley) - A nation with a deeply ingrained aestetic religion. Monks and Psionics


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## Zephyrus (Feb 14, 2003)

Reguarding the biomancy I dont think I ment it as much as a they did it on purpose but were similar to how the WereWolves were created as a Diety blessing similar things might happen. perhaps this is how the Knossos (Minos) that was suggested turned to. With the Druid's natural wildshape ability starting at 5th level effectively wildshape is potentially common place. with these more fenatical group of cressian renegade druids and Jongan Fire Wizards. the deep faith in their cause might inspire a new Diety. an agressive Animan (animal/man) diety. Setting his new followers up on a pedistal by transforming them into minotaurs, centaurs, wemics and such. Perhaps transforming maybe changing many of them into wemics and/or Were-Tigers. a Feline diety opposed to the Dog Mother. Perhaps the feline aspect being derived somewhat from the Jongans. The renegade druids rebelling against the dog embrace the cat goddess with fire in her eyes. granting these people their own beastmen (WereTigers). 

in reguards to the centaurs for the Cressians was that they would if the Centuars were not created as a result of the Cressians 'NEED' like the Werewolves that the cressians would actively ally themsevlves with creature-cultures like the Centuars and Wemics. Wemics are sapposably plains creatures as well. I'm suggesting these races simple for lack of a MM handy and also just to give a base of ideas not encouraging any one idea but throwing out several.


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## Ciaran (Feb 14, 2003)

Why the continued insistence on psionics?  Most players don't even have the Psionics Handbook.  Again, I vote that we leave psionics out of this.

Thus far RangerWickett has avoided using the names of real-world cultures, and I suspect he will continue the trend.  This is ultimately his world; let's at least let him continue to name things.  He's done a good job so far.  (And insofar as we're looking at real world culture names, I suspect that he derived "Cresia" from Crete, so Knossos/Minos seems pretty redundant.  )



			
				Zephyrus said:
			
		

> *Reguarding the biomancy I dont think I ment it as much as a they did it on purpose but were similar to how the WereWolves were created as a Diety blessing similar things might happen. perhaps this is how the Knossos (Minos) that was suggested turned to. With the Druid's natural wildshape ability starting at 5th level effectively wildshape is potentially common place. with these more fenatical group of cressian renegade druids and Jongan Fire Wizards. the deep faith in their cause might inspire a new Diety. an agressive Animan (animal/man) diety. Setting his new followers up on a pedistal by transforming them into minotaurs, centaurs, wemics and such. Perhaps transforming maybe changing many of them into wemics and/or Were-Tigers. *



If my god started changing my friends and family into monsters for no good reason, I think I'd go find another god, and possibly another tribe, thank you very much.  

- Eric


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## Zaruthustran (Feb 14, 2003)

*No psionics; monuments; lingering Jongan cultural influence*



			
				Ciaran said:
			
		

> *Why the continued insistence on psionics?  Most players don't even have the Psionics Handbook.  Again, I vote that we leave psionics out of this.
> *




I second this.

--

One thing I'd like to see in Cresian society: Ziggurats of some sort. If they're all about aggriculture, I can see them developing something like the Hanging Gardens of Babylon. Or giant grain silos. Or huge cisterns for use during dry periods. Whatever it is, I think it'd be cool if we added a few landmarks to the cresians.

--

I also think it'd be cool if the Jongan island, though assimilated, retained some sort of cultural identity/lingering independence. Something like what we've got with England/Scotland. Perhaps while the main Cresian society focuses on farming and land-based expansion, the former Jongans maintain their fascination with mechanical things and the sea. Maybe they develop sails, and start wondering if there are any other landmasses besides Cresia...

-z


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## Ciaran (Feb 14, 2003)

Good ideas from Zarathustran.  Ziggurats are an interesting idea; while the Cresians probably use wood for most building purposes, their brush with fire may well mean that they start to use non-flammable substances, such as brick, for particularly importand buildings.  On the other hand, if you want interesting Cresian architecture, consider the possibility of using _wood shape_ or variants thereof on living wood.  Imagine towers and domes constructed entirely of living trees that have been woven and melded together by magic...

As to the Jongans, despite conditioning and interbreeding with their conquerers, are likely, given their isolation, to keep their own culture and traditions to a large extent.  Their old god (the Burning Smith?), though technically now subordinate to the Dog-Mother and the Field-Father, will still be the primary deity there, and they doubtless pass on tales of the might of their ancestors.  Rebellions of one sort or another are likely to be a recurrent problem in the Jongan islands, and sooner or later they may cut their ties entirely if the Cresian Empire finds itself sufficiently imperiled from other directions that it's unable to maintain its hold.

- Eric


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## s/LaSH (Feb 14, 2003)

Here's a couple of my more esoteric thoughts:

First, the humanoid question. Why haven't we seen any fantastic races so far? Perhaps because they don't exist yet. After all, many of the creatures out there are explicitly designed to kill stuff. Perhaps the next few millenia will spawn such creatures as weapons? (We've already seen the Beastmen and the scurvy sea dogs, arr, but precious little in the way of additional creatures. I think they're not here yet. Dragons and outsiders, of course, being the exceptions.) Anyway, orcs, gnolls and elves could well appear in coming centuries.

Second, the level of available magic. During the Jongan Wars, magic advanced to roughly the third level. I anticipate fourth, perhaps fifth level magics in this next scenario, but no more. The more powerful spells and abilities are likely to be divinely granted, if such a thing ever occurs. By the same regard, I'm not seeing classes getting past levels around six to eight; the training infrastructure simply hasn't been invented. Maybe ten or twelve for champions and national heroes, but these are the mavericks who nobody can really imitate. (Plus they have a nasty habit of getting eaten by dragons. Or desk jobs.)

Third, the divine question. What role do the gods play in all this? This is a Big, Important Question for the future of this setting. I see four main possibilities:
- One, the gods don't really exist - they're sources created by humans to justify their strange powers.
- Two, the gods do exist, but they're given form and power by their worshippers, like a group-mind phenomenon.
- Three, the gods do exist, as survivors of some ancient paradigm, or abstract forces given shape in recent millenia by great cosmic conjunctions; they haven't had much contact with each other, and as their pet civilisations expand into the world they discover new gods - and rivals.
- Four, the gods do exist, and are all one big family pantheon-style. Not necessarily a happy family, however; factions and sibling rivalry could instigate open warfare between branches of that family (namely different civilisations). On the other hand, the gods might be playing at war for entertainment, and are all best friends in 'real life' up on Olympus.
You could mix these up, of course. That's always fun. But I think I've itemised the divine possibilities.

Fourth, naming issues. We need names for the Cresian capitol, and the beastmen (and by corelation the scurvy sea dogs, arr). I propose naming the capitol The Heavenbloom, because of its divine/naturalist focus. (If that's too longwinded, you could try just the Bloom or the Rose, which I imagine the roadmap would resemble anyway). The beastmen? I could imagine calling them the Wyr, although that doesn't sound quite in synch with the way Cresia sounds... You could try The Delta as a group name, because delta is the mathematical symbol for a change, _and_ it implies their powerful role in the original delta of the Cresian realm. (The scurvy sea dogs, arr, become the Sea Delta.)

Whaddaya think?

Fifth, national specialities. We're going to want several archetypes, right? The technologists are a given (they're the designated opponent in the upcoming round, after all). The other two neighbours of Cresia? So far, we've had suggestions of a fire cult of refugees (although I think Cresia expanded over the Cave People's realm a while back, right?), a psionic nation, an undead-oriented nation, a biomancer nation, and a humanoid nation... I think that's the list, right? Can we combine and/or cull any of this? (For example, psi seems to be out, at least for now; but a general magocracy could be an acceptable amalgam. And one should probably have the ability to field beasts of various types.

What precise aspects are we examining in this confrontation?


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## Bob Aberton (Feb 14, 2003)

I don't care much about the cultural details too much, but some things dealing with naval/maritime developements:

I would hope they have invented sails by now.  I would imagine that in their battles with the Jongans they encountered some difficulty with their dolphin skiffs, for example:

-Tow-ropes breaking in the middle of battle; perhaps another ship ran over them, perhaps they just got too stretched.  A broken tow rope would leave a dolphin skiff or whale ship dead in the water.

-Vulnerability of the tow animals.  Charm a tow animal, sic it on its own vessel, you've got the makings of a disaster.

-Tow animals tiring out.  You can't drive a wagon twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week, but you can sail a ship for years on end.

-Unsafe in bad weather.  As above, a broken tow rope would leave a whaleship dead in the water during a storm, with disastrous consequences.  Also, the tow animal might get panicked by having a multi-ton ship being thrown around in the water near it.

With their woodshaping skills, I see them discovering sails, developing them, and becoming a prime naval power.

A hull, deck and mast could be woodshaped out of one piece of wood - making it many times over as strong as a conventional vessel.

Masts could be made taller, and taller still - ships could begin setting topsails above their mainsails, then topgallants, royals, skysails, ringtails...

The complex arrangement of ropes could be handled by a small crew of mages memorizing nothing but Animate Rope...


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## F5 (Feb 15, 2003)

*Re: No psionics; monuments; lingering Jongan cultural influence*



			
				Zaruthustran said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I also think it'd be cool if the Jongan island, though assimilated, retained some sort of cultural identity/lingering independence.
> -z *




That's why I suggested that Dr. Strangemonkey's scribe's "guild" (agreed...not the most accurate name for it) might start an Academy of sorts...and Arcane magic wouldn't be the only thing they'd teach there.  They'd teach the Jongan history, and way of life (to whatever extent was permitted by the Cresian authority).  Actually, we might see Jongan become the Lingua Franca of magical study, instead of draconic.  That's kind of funky...

As for the Cresian cities, Ciaran kind of beat me to the punch, but with wood shape easily available, buildings crafted out of living plants is a definite possibility.  We've already seen something like this with the shoreline tree forts.  I see the Cresian cities as blending in with the environment.  Almost imperceptibly, the hedge-rows lining walls give way to buildings formed from those same hedges.  Living ziggurats, or maybe buildings with a stone core, but walls woven from Shaped tree limbs, sound really cool.  Even permanent stone structures could be covered with ivy and creepers, so they blend in.  A newcomer to a Cresian city might not realize just when he's passed from the fields into the city proper.  The heart of the city, the temples and whatnot, would be enclosed and protected by huge earthworks, but the rest of the city could be a sprawling metropolis of living structures.

Oh, here's a wicked thought... the High Druid wood shapes his home, or his temple from a single great tree.  Then Awakens it.  Funky... 

Last, about the suggestion of the Rebels hiding out in the Hill People's caves...yeah, I figured Cresia would have expanded over the old Hill People territiry long ago, but the caves are still there.  Assuming they go deep enough, it's possible some of the Hill People may have been able to hide out in them.  Of course, 500 or so years of living in what would essentially be the Underdark would take its' toll...they might not even be recognizable as human anymore.  How 'bout we say they devovle into Grimlocks?  There was a suggestion way back when that they might become the first Dwarves; that could be cool, too.  Or not, just a thought.  Regardless, the caves make a good hiding place for our Jongan/Cresian seperatist rebels, if we decide to keep them around.

[edit] how about Deeproot for the name of the Cresian capital city?  I like Heavenbloom, but I like that better for the main temple complex of the Field Father.  Kind of like a druidic Vatican.  Yes?  No?


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## Tonguez (Feb 15, 2003)

> *Why the continued insistence on psionics? Most players don't even have the Psionics Handbook. Again, I vote that we leave psionics out of this.*




Because the original premise of this exercise was to investigate how a DnD Fantasy Arms race might develop given the presence of Magic. 

See this (from the original post):
_wondering how a D&D fantasy army would be trained and equipped. With all the critters they have to face, and high level NPCs they'd have to fight, we have to wonder how they manage.So what I plan to do is run an arms race. 

We're going to start with a few basic tactics of primitive people in a fantasy world, and slowly develop counter-tactics and counter-counter-tactics, plus new technologies and magic to combat current tactics. I need a lot of people to help out so we'll have a wide base of ideas to pick from, with the ultimate result that we'll have a very diverse battlefield. _

I realise that this has developed into something of a exercise in 'Setting creation' but the original intent was to experiment with how DnD Armies would develop IMHO Psionics is a part of the DnD landscape and so should be investigated too. 

Also I think that the Cressians are sufficiently advanced to start incoporating multiple elements



> *Originally posted by s/LaSH
> Here's a couple of my more esoteric thoughts:
> 
> First, the humanoid question. Why haven't we seen any fantastic races so far? Perhaps because they don't exist yet. After all, many of the creatures out there are explicitly designed to kill stuff. Perhaps the next few millenia will spawn such creatures as weapons?
> ...



*

I agree we do need to see how Humanoid armies are going to effect the DnD landscape hence my suggestion of adding Minotaurs and giants. We have already seen how the Beastmen gave Cressians an advantage, now lets see what other beasties can do. As a guide I'd suggest limiting things to say CR 6 at the most - Werewolf is CR 3 and Minotaur CR 4 iirc. A Dire wolf is CR 3 and as for Dragons a young Red is CR 6 (NB A Hill Giant is CR 7 but a troll CR 5 and an Ogre a measly CR 2)

As for characters a CR 6 Druid (ie Level 6 Human Druid) can wildshape 2/day and knows spells up to Level 3 a CR 6 Bard can use Suggestion

Anyway the point is we can use CR/Class level as a rough gauge of the general  'power level' we can expect in our civilisations

I'd say because we are talking 'Macrolevel spells' rather than individual we could possiblty allow Spells up to Level 5 with anything more powerful needing adjudication






Third, the divine question. What role do the gods play in all this? This is a Big, Important Question for the future of this setting. I see four main possibilities: 

Click to expand...



The Dog Mother seems to have been a manifestation of the original 'wolf spirit' that the Plainsfolk contact all those Millenia ago. Since then that 'disembodies spirit' has gained a physical form and function.

The Field Father seems to have spontaneously arisen from the efforts of the Rose Druids in developing their Briar roads and so seems to have gained form from the development of the Druidism.

A similar thing probably occured with the Forge God of the Jongans

Thus it seems to me at least that 
Two, the gods do exist, but they're given form and power by their worshippers, like a group-mind phenomenon. has been the process by which things have occured and I see no point to deviate from this.

So each culture brings its own gods and conception of those gods who are really primordial 'forces/spirits' who have acquired form and function according to the needs of their followers. When they meet it is the interaction of followers that will likely determine their relationship (eg the Jongan Forge god is now a rebelious son of the Field father)

Anyway - just some thoughts*


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## s/LaSH (Feb 15, 2003)

The Psionics Question:

When do psionics get developed? Are there already races that employ this power, or will it be developed later?

Psionics is a power unrelated to gods or arcane power. It's also more flexible in application because of the power point mechanic. This all leads me to believe that psionics will be developed only later on, as a sort of third option - perhaps even as a battlefield technology. After all, what's more effective on the battlefield - a caster who can throw fireballs until they only have low-level slots left, like a sorcerer, or a caster who can run up walls, project inertial barriers, and throw fireballs using all their reserve energy?

(Note - I don't have the PsiHB, but the SRD appears to list everything needed for further discussion, assuming we ever get up to the development of psionics.)


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## ajanders (Feb 15, 2003)

*The Land of the Rose*

First of all, I suppose I should apologize for the psionics crack.  I just saw a reference about Herodotus, Dragon Kings, and crystalline constructions being fallacious and I said to myself "How could we make those come true?"
It made perfect sense to me, at least.
Now about those Cresians...while I don't know how precisely we've defined their climate, but they might not worry about storing agricultural products in mass quantities.  Particularly if we assume they aren't urbanizing the in the same fashion as we did in the real world, it might be that they just stagger their growth to maturity times in such a fashion that something's always ripe and in season: the apple tree in the front yard will be ripe in about two months: until then, we have grapes, after that, we have pears...or something.  Given their distaste for fire, I imagine they wouldn't be doing much with food preservation other than drying in a mundane sense.
So not necessarily a big need for granaries.
Also, unless they revere mountains or need to keep an eye on the sky, they're unlikely to build big ziggurat/temple structures.  Even if they do need observation towers, they'll probably just put them in the Cresian equivalent of a redwood tree.  Heck, if someone awakened the tree, it could do the observing for them.

Caveat: if they find themselves no longer able to tolerate the changes they make in their environment, look to see them develop something along the lines of an arcology: concentrating themselves in one very unnatural area in order to free the rest of the wilderness from themselves.  But I think that's very far in the future.


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## Tonguez (Feb 17, 2003)

Rangerwicket  are we still playing?

*BUMP*


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## Ciaran (Feb 17, 2003)

Time to beat on a dead horse some more...  



			
				Tonguez said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Because the original premise of this exercise was to investigate how a DnD Fantasy Arms race might develop given the presence of Magic.
> 
> ...



Psionics is neither magic nor technology.

The concept of "psionics" originated in early 20th century _science fiction_.  Parapsychology held out the hope that powers such as telepathy and clairvoyance might be scientifically explained, and science fiction authors of all stripes, from pulp authors like E.E. "Doc" Smith to hard-science types like Asimov and Clarke, introduced mental powers into their stories.

In the 60s and 70s, a new subgenre of fantasy developed out of science fiction: a sort of "future fantasy" in which the setting was a future world, either Earth or a distant world settled by humanity, that had fallen into barbarism and decay and whose "magic" was actually the relics of a lost scientific age.  Pioneered by such authors as Andre Norton, C.J. Cherryh and Marion Zimmer Bradley, this genre made liberal use of "psionic" powers as a substitute or underpinning for magic.  But this was not in addition to "real" magic; in this sort of pseudo-scientific setting, magic and psionics were the same thing.

Then came D&D.  Back in the old days, gamers threw any old thing together to create their worlds.  Being fans of classic fantasy and futuristic fantasy, Gary Gygax and the other founders of D&D had no compunctions about combining magic and psionics.  Then again, they also threw in machine guns and spaceships, neither of which can reasonably be called "fantasy" elements of a game.

As far as I'm concerned, psionics have even less place in a fantasy game as, say, laser guns.  And at least lasers are in the core rules!  (DMG, p. 164)  Psionics are a substitute or alternate explanation for magic, and IMO the two have no place in the same setting.

- Eric

PS: RangerWickett, where are you?  We need ya!


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## GladiusNP (Feb 19, 2003)

*3rd Phase*

Was just curious to see if the thread was being moved into the 3rd round.  If so, could someone please throw me a link?  Just was interested in reading how things continue to develop.  Thanks.


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Feb 19, 2003)

I too am curious.

Just returned from Heart of Darkness style Trip to a little sister's Volleyball Tournament.

When I made my suggestions for market centers I had in mind the sort of temples and pyramids favored by the Mayans or people of Angkor Wat, Khmer?, so Ziggurats of some sort seem to be a common theme.  Makes particular sense given the Cressians original astronomy based magic.

RangerWickett mentioned huge and impractical walls.   I think that's a great idea for their capital city.  Such things are a fairly common feature of people who rule through mobile armies, Bulgars and Persians and such.  Herodotus describes Babylon as having impossibly huge walls.

I would like to suggest that a portion of the walls be heaped earth and the top be living wood.  Some sort of special highly decorative tree that functions as a sign of Cressian imperial power.

I think the Cressians are clever and adaptive enough to avoid lots of Jongan revolts, their society never seemed to great anyway, but I do think that some portion of their culture will be integrated into the Cressian culture in a big way.

As for the gods:

I would like to suggest that they do exist, but that they are really much more concerned with their own interests and the worshippers they have a relationship with than each other.  Possibly with the exception of a few pantheons.  This would allow for war with divine support but without much divine intervention.  Proper prayer would be a 'technology' that people would have to develop.  Thus the Cressians might be better at divine magic than their neighbors not because they have more faith necessarily, but because they are superior masters of religious ritual.

Even without the other nations, there is still a lot to do with the Cressians.  I don't think I've ever seen a write up for a large druid supported army formation.

Given their tradition of Guerrilla and mobile warfare and strong 'officer' corp, I would like to make the basic suggestion that the Cressians are likely to fight in waves rather than a battle line.  The main formation would be organized into three or more battles and a reserve.  The first battle would engage the enemy initially, the second battle would engage to relieve the first, and the third would engage to attack any resulting weaknesses in the enemies disrupted formations.  

The technique is very similar to the Swiss and Theban orders of battle.  I could also easily see the Cressians fighting battles very similar to the German tactics in the Teutonoberg Forest.  Using the terrain and large numbers of light troops to disrupt and surround enemy formations while flying units of elite troops attack and withdraw from weak points in the enemy line until elements of the enemy can be isolated and eliminated.  That's only good for the defensive, however.

I also think they are likely to use skirmish lines and illusion to screen their own troop movements with a big emphasis on information warfare.


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## s/LaSH (Feb 20, 2003)

Well, no Ranger pending, what say we to coming up with the hypothetical scenario ourselves? Maybe just here, and maybe to be overruled by the Ranger later, but it can't hurt.

Factors that Ranger determined:

Cresia is now ~400 miles across. Jonga is assimilated into the Cresian Empire. There are three other nations, north, east and south (roughly) of Cresia (the sea is to the west). These nations can field tens of thousands of soldiers in times of war.

Factors that need determining:

What are these countries? What are their motivations, basic histories, and plans for the future? More to the point, when this is decided, when and why does the war start?

Thoughts, ladies and gentlemen?


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## Zaruthustran (Feb 20, 2003)

s/LaSH said:
			
		

> *  More to the point, when this is decided, when and why does the war start?
> 
> *




Well, a war could come from without (invasion) or from within (revolt). Or it could be initiated by the Cresians.

Options for invasion:

1) Horde. Either humanoids, undead, monsters, barbarians, or some other mindless mass that couldn't be bargained with. I say bargain because the Cresians would be rich in food and population, the two major currencies of the ancient world.

2) Aggressive neighbor. The Cresians have wealth, magic, good aggriculture, and other nations might want to take this wealth away.

3) Xenophobic neighbor. The strong Cresians threaten a neighbor's way of life, so the neighbor launches a pre-emptive strike. Or perhaps the gods of Cresia offend the neighbor, and the neighbor orders a crusade. This last idea could be the popular excuse for a war that is actually about resources (see the real crusades for example).

Options for revolt:

4) Peace brings prosperity, prosperity brings wealth, wealth brings social classes, and social classes brings class friction. Civil war of the haves vs. war of the have nots.

5) Peace brings prosperity, prosperity brings wealth, and wealth brings greed. Internal war between guilds/Houses/nobles.

6) Peace brings prosperity, prosperity brings wealth, and wealth brings crime. Secret war between criminals and cops.

7) Peace brings prosperity, prosperity allows leisure time,  leisure time allows philosophy, philosophy brings new ideas, new ideas bring conflict. Internal philosophical war, perhaps between humanists and deists. Or simple governmental revolt (king overthrows theocracy).

Options for war of aggression:

8) Peace brings prosperity, prosperity brings population boom, and population boom causes overcrowding. What to do with all these people? We need more room! Let's take it from our neighbors!

9) Taking their prosperity as a sign of their divine right to rule, the Cresians decide to impose their benevolence on others. Holy war.

10) A Jongan exploratory vessel stumbles upon a new land mass. They run into another people/culture, and one of their number (a prince) is killed. History repeats itself as a retaliatory invasion is launched...

11) A Jongan exploratory vessel stumbles upon a new land mass. It brings back fabulous wealth. War comes as Cresia and the other nations rush to colonize and exploit this new land. 

12) A Jongan exploratory vessel stumbles upon a new land mass. It brings back fabulous wealth. War comes as Cresia and the other nations rush to colonize and exploit this new land. But the land is not unoccupied...

-z


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## GladiusNP (Feb 21, 2003)

I think that as the Cresians expand beyong the Delta, they are definitely going to run into people who have entirely different approaches to warfare, which the former tactics of the Cresians can't counter well.
1.  Chariots.  If they move into any kind of flat terrain, they chould probably encounter at least horse drawn chariots.  Though the Cresians probably haven't developed them, due to the Delta's somewhat wetter environment, it makes sense for someone further inland.  These should really give Cresians a hard time.  Chariots are mobile, provide a lot of firepower w/ Javelin throwers, etc., and are easily able to evade the infantry.  Mages who ride these into battle would be fearsome.  If the land has much less shelter in terms of forest or rough terrain, the Cresians are really going to have a difficult time.  A kingdom with a chariot-based army, however, can't invade Cresia, assuming a rather marshy delta broken up by lots of rivers.  Maybe this one could be neutral at the start of the next round.  The good thing about a battle with these guys would be the evolution it forces the Cresians to undergo, as with the Jongans developing the fog-based magics of the Cresians.  As for the magic side of the chariot army, maybe abjuration?  The Jongans seemed to be heavy hitters, maybe a buffing sort of approach could work, which would really be a cleric-based magic society, with a minority of abjurer specialists.  
2.  More advanced formations - here I'm thinking the Roman Empire.  Really disciplined, very organised.  Cresians just crash on them, not breaking the line.  Tactics here would be interesting.  Cresians aren't able to break the line using most of their magic - fogs not going to do it, and if they are organized, summoned creatures are just another way to try and break the line.  Discipline stops Skirmishers being effectice.  Beastmen would be very effective, so the counter for them would have to be developed.  A really unique sort of approach to magic, not seen so far would be cool.  All necromancy?  Psionic soldiers of the Emerald Dragon?  Depends how people want to go, I suppose, though I'm unsure whether or not psionics will play a part.  
3.  Efficient missile weapons - when will crossbws be developed?  I have to confess, I don't actually know when they were made in history, though I think they are pretty far beyond the scope of this thread.  Slings and javelins would seem to be the only effective missile weapons so far, and bows are still used for hunting.  Also, what level of magic are we talking, 5, 6? Couldn't be too high.  A little more definition could be useful.  
Anyway, hope to hear others thoughts on what sort of kingdoms we'll have.  (P.S. When do we get iron?)


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## Tonguez (Feb 21, 2003)

Presented Once more for your perusal

Some suggestions for other Nations

1. *The Land of Iron*The only culture with Iron, a well disciplined military structure and less reliance on magic. Probably the most advanced Military nation and have chariots, heavy infantry and seige weapons. Oh and give them Giants too (ie Large size creatures so we test the effects of reach and rockthrowing and stuff...). This could well be the Aggressive 'horde' nation

2. *The Magiocracy* where powerful Scorcerers  hold power (no Wizards as yet)and Arcane magics - from Illusion to Fireballs- are freely used in combat. No doubt this will be the Xenophobic nation

3. *The island Nation* settled by the rebel Jongans/Cressians. The Druids of this Nation did turn to Biomancy and have created Minotaur, Centaur and Merfolk soldiers. They have the best ships and use other magics that involve enhancing or transforming creatures (This is to introduce Monster Scenarios in warfare)

4. *The Ascetic Nation* A nation with a deeply ingrained aestetic religion. Monks and Psionics*. This nation is initially neutral but might be swayed by Diplomacy (yay the rise of Politicians) 
* Okay we need to vote on the Psionics thing as for me I think we should allow the Psionic Feats but NOT Psionic Powers. That gives us all the wonder of Wuxia but not the muddying of the world caused by Psionics-dissent

PS whatever happened to the Jongan Bards?


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Feb 21, 2003)

Well, I got no opinions on competitors cept that one of em should definitely be barbarous.

I do have an idea for why the Cressians would got to war, however.

The Cressians seem to me to not be much into the whole conquest thing since their culture is very deep, difficult to export, and takes time to develop.  I do see them being pretty paranoid about aggressors, however.

Let's say that one of the cultures bordering the Cressians consists of a lot of independent city states who fight a great deal among themselves but do have a coherent sense of identity.  Ala the Greek city states.

The Cressians develop trade relationships with some of the closer and more prosperous city states along their common border.  There are problems with occasional raids or armies from the city states trying to cross into or through Cressian claimed land.  Overall things go well.  

Many of the other neighboring states are deeply embroiled in the politics of these city states and one of the more distant states sends in troops to protect their allies.  This polarizes the city states into a massive conflict as all the states ally to take on the few states who have claimed foriegn protection or work to take advantage of foriegn protection themselves.  

As the closest stable nation, the Cressians have to develop a policy and response to this fighting.  They are extremely reluctant to intervene on so short a time table and into such a complicated situation, but they also very much hate the idea of another power invading the City States.  

Let's call the City State Culture the Kleesians.


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## Ciaran (Feb 21, 2003)

I like it, Dr. Strangemonkey, I like it!  An excellent scenario.  Only one problem: ‘Kleesians’?  They sound like a nation of either

A) 20th century Swiss avant-garde painters, or
B) disposable tissues for blowing one’s nose.

  How about something Greek, mythic and apropos, like “Lernaeans” or “Stymphalians”?

- Eric


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Feb 21, 2003)

Ciaran said:
			
		

> *I like it, Dr. Strangemonkey, I like it!  An excellent scenario.  Only one problem: ‘Kleesians’?  They sound like a nation of either
> 
> A) 20th century Swiss avant-garde painters, or
> B) disposable tissues for blowing one’s nose.
> ...




Baaaa!!!

You would disdain my carefully chosen associations with the fractious swiss and the soft gooey kleenex?

Stymphalians works for me!  Shall we say the closest allied city state of the Cressians are the Altheeans?

And who wants to work on the other foriegn power?  They have to come from somewhere, and if they are arriving the Stymphalian zone by sea then naval conflict will play a critical role in this battle.

They need to have some sort of mobile professional army and an ethic of intervention at the very least.  Maybe some sort of militaristic traders like the Minoans or Phoenecians or Vikings?


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## Morgenstern (Feb 21, 2003)

I'm thinking three way - I like the loosely allied city-states, with a strong martial culture, and constant fighting to keep in shape. Modified spartants will be fun. Probably from rough country so that natural terrain has divided them into smal enclaves. All good.

For the third side of the triange, vast grasslands spotted with rocky hills, and an ENORMOUS nomad nation now united under a kahn-type figure. It's cressians and psuedo-Greeks force to band together against the truely huge invading armies of the khan. Give them all the typical mongol goodies: expert cavalry, knowledge of the value of scouting and reconnaisance, tightly coordinated unit movemments by planning/training and drum command, superior bows, and a seriously hardy and highly motivated worrior class. Then add the magical aspests - a light scattering of sorcery focused on long distance scrying and communication (combat suport rather than direct damage), and an elite cadre of gryphon riders (with magic briddles that prevent outside charming). Worship a gryphon god of the sky, with a modest scattering of clerics with weather and air focus. No wizards whatsoever, no druids, and no equivalent of the bard. Waves of these start rolling into the area, and in the fighting the Cressians and the 'greeks' discover each other's existance as a result of tales from captured 'mongols' who are rotated through both fronts. Some individual fighting, and eventual contact (sail up to meet the 'greeks'?).

A three way offers lots of political goodies (are all the khan's warlords loyal, or can they be bought off?) as two very diffent groups face a common threat.


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## ajanders (Feb 22, 2003)

*Three way battle royale*

One concern I have is that the thread was initially designed to make at least vaguely informed speculation about what happened when Vancian magic got added to armed conflict.
Adding two other cultures simultaneously adds elements of diplomacy and politics to our otherwise straightforward military theory.
Having said that, I'll suggest a martial Sparta-style culture with iron weapons and advanced mundane technology.
I think the Cresians will make mincemeat out of any animal-riding culture fairly quickly.
aja


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## s/LaSH (Feb 22, 2003)

I think the idea was to have four nations, perhaps in a fragile balance so the winner isn't automatically decided by force of numbers.

I think spell level 5 sounds reasonable, don't you? Although consider that not every spell has been thought of yet. Note that this limits casters to around level 10, so we can't expect higher-level characters than that.

That said, here are my contributions to this scenario:

The Stymphalians are a hill-based people, similar to the ancient Greek city-states they're based on. They live to the North of Cresia, right? We need a quick history for them, and technological capabilities.

Stymphalia is not a political body. The city-states all have their own internal allegiances. They don't think of themselves as Stymphalians, they owe allegiance to one of a half-dozen city-states. What caused these states to spring up? They're relatively new, or Cresia would know about them. Why would a people band together in fortified cities? For protection. From what? Probably a force of invaders.

So, Stymphalia was formed when a rural people who had discovered how to put together kiln-baked bricks came under attack from migrant people from another place (perhaps a tribe from the Horse People?). The armies of the invader were intent on wiping out the Stymphalians and taking their land (because it was warmer than their distant home), but they were able to erect fortresses and see off or assimilate the invaders over a period of generations. These fortresses fought amongst each other, having discovered the joys of military action and having no central authority. Eventually, six states were all that was left, and the population was depleted after constant war.

(Oh, and I think Stymphalia is getting difficult to type. Should we fantasise it a little and call them the Stempa instead?)

Anyway, the Stempa had no problems with fire and were able to develop bronze at the same time as the Jongans. They've had it for a while, and have developed great weapons and personal armour - similar to plate mail, much like certain types of Greek armour. Their natural proclivity to defensive warfare has enabled them to develop both a large system of watchtowers, and tortoise-style formations. They have few agile troops, except for small elite cavalry units.

The Stempa have a scattered religion, pieced together from the local spirits of their ancestors. Each city reveres a different deity, and acknowledges the existance of all six, although they each claim theirs is best. The deities in question? I dunno, I'm running out of time.

Their magic? The Stempa have a number of clerics in each city, and a number of sorcerers. Their mages are best at defensive magic, like Shield, Wall of Stone, that sort of thing. They may also be able to cast Animate Object, as they're consumate builders and workers with tools.

And an interesting concept: Does this nation have to have a male warrior tradition? The females might well have been in charge of the kilns that provided them with the ability to make bricks (thence fortresses). They'd definitely have a different role, don't you think? Maybe not warriors, but there are possibilities...


OK, that's the Stempa dealt with. I think the Horse People are next.

The Horse People are a race of nomadic tribes from further inland. They have spent most of their time running around hunting animals, and recently learned how to ride horses - and even use bows. (They can't really be an established, stirrup-using people in this time period or they'd conquer everyone, very few questions asked.) Their tribes have been growing in the past couple of centuries.

They too are prone to internecine conflict, which promoted the ideals of mobile tribes. Each tribe has its own supply of shamans, but very little in the way of mages; however, a few are born sorcerers, although they have no formal organisation.

Recently, some of the tribes were brought together in an alliance. This happened when one strong tribe fought another tribe after it had been weakened in a battle, and assimilated it without conflict. With its enhanced numbers, the Horde discovered it was able to intimidate other tribes into joining. By no means have they all joined; other tribes just ran away into the endless plains. However, with a dozen tribes of warriors behind him, the leader of the Horde feels he's king of the world.

Having discovered potential conquests who can't run away (Cresia and Stempa), the Khan has set his sights on a new empire. And he has more soldiers than both nations can field between them.

Horse People technology is probably at the level of bronze. In the past, they attempted to invade Stempa and failed, but they came away with smelting techniques. Their magic is limited to shamanistic magic, similar to that of the ancient Cresians, and their sorcerer elites (who probably multiclass with Fighter to form an upper class of warriors who claim divine blood). However, their technology isn't too awesome compared to the Stempa, and their magic isn't too awesome compared to the Cresians. 

Their griffins are probably tamed by the upper-class Godbloods. 


Finally, there should be one other player. The Exiles seem to be a good idea... a distinct magocracy on an island somewhere to the South. It would have to be a big island, though.

The Exiles are outcasts who like fire and screwing around with nature. They value their independance, and their neutrality. They may trade with one or the other nations from time to time, perhaps just to 'see what happens'.

This opens up the next Big Thing: the biomancers enjoy creating weird new life forms, and from time to time they escape... or are set free out of curiosity. The Exiles drop them off on the mainland and watch with great interest. The griffins are one of theirs.

Interestingly, the Exiles have no priests. They have a few druids who embrace the less harmonious side of nature, but other than that they believe that they are the most important force in the world.


OK, that's set up. The Stempa fought off the Horse People before. The Exiles enjoy poking the mainland with a big stick. The Horse People's Godblood Khan wants new conquests, and thinks that if he moves around Stempa he can conquer Cresia (it's flat, for the most part, and less prone to vast fortifications; nomads don't do well in sieges). The Stempa and Exiles are, for now, on the sidelines.

Does this sound OK? Any more details that need adding?


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Feb 22, 2003)

*Re: Three way battle royale*



			
				ajanders said:
			
		

> *One concern I have is that the thread was initially designed to make at least vaguely informed speculation about what happened when Vancian magic got added to armed conflict.
> Adding two other cultures simultaneously adds elements of diplomacy and politics to our otherwise straightforward military theory.
> Having said that, I'll suggest a martial Sparta-style culture with iron weapons and advanced mundane technology.
> I think the Cresians will make mincemeat out of any animal-riding culture fairly quickly.
> aja *




Actually, I think the elements of diplomacy and politics complete our straightforward military theory for two and a half reasons.

First, all military theory has to exist in the light of political and diplomatic realities or strategy becomes a sort of moot point.

Second, I think that Vancian magic adds some interesting twists to the political and diplomatic aspects of this military campaign.

2.5, I agree with your argument in principal but I think we can keep the political and diplomatic aspects limited enough to keep the tactics in the central light.

That said, I think the Stempa, great name, should have a range of city cultures from wildly militaristic Spartan-like cities on the one hand to wildly intellectual 'Athens'-like cities on the other end of the spectrum with a few very mercantile Corinth cities on another pole and most everyone else ending up as some sort of mix of the extremes.  

I like the Horse Lords a lot S/lash, but I would ask that we make one change.  The Horse Lords have to be chariot users.  We've had too many cool posts on the possibilities of chariots to not explore that aspect.  That being said I would second the nomination of the HorseLords as the major power with the following caveat.

Since we have to make them chariot based anyway, let's prevent them from overwhelming everyone by giving them very long supply lines.  Say the heart of their empire is a distant river valley in which the wealthiest culture of their empire lives.  Then they become more like an Egyptian empire under the Hyksos or Persians who could only rely on Babylon rather than Babylon, Egypt, and Croesius empire for supply centers.  In this scenario the chariots can be integrated into the cavalry as the fighting platforms of their too civilized allies and wizards.

If we were finally willing to integrate humanoids and demi-humans I would argue that we should introduce the Khanate as a cultural mix between humans or some sort of smart demi-human and centaurs.  That way the Cressian advantage against animal based cavalry is moderated.

I think the Magocracy should be heavily and secretly influenced by exiles and that while they are good at fire their native power is over wind or water.  That way we can get in a good naval power for the Cressians to fight.  I'd love to see a culture that was arcane casters backed up by paladin bodyguards and monk-style sailors.  That would fit the requirement for a highly mobile enemy with diverse interests and elite forces.  

The Cressians could have had some contact with these guys as trading partners, we'll say that a culture of sorcerors and wizards is pretty interested in trade.  Precious precious somehow intrinsically magical gems...  ...and that relationships have been relatively amicable.  Which is why the Cressians are surprised by the very familiar faces and tactics being employed by the Magocracies expeditionary forces in Stempa.  

If we really wanted to make it complicated we should create a nifty balance of power agreement between the Khanate and the Magiocracy so that a large part of the war becomes a shadow war as the Cressians attempt to intercept Magiocratic support so that they can prove an illegal move on the part of the Magiocrats and force the Khannate to aid them in expelling the new Jongan forces from the Stempa conflict.

That might be too political, but I would like to see the possibilites of this level of magic for foriegn policy and espionage explored.

This is overall looking pretty cool.

We need more names and a better fleshed out geography.  I can come up with a pretty good idea of Stempan history, culture, and geography from what we have so far.  We need a better idea of what surrounds and makes up Cressia and the other nations.  I would like it if there were still areas of wilderness or open ocean surrounding most of Cressia.  Makes a balance of power a little bit easier than if Cressian is surrounded and gives us room to play around in later.

I know psionics are right out, but I wonder how much play we might have with something like shugenja, no concrete suggestion just know, simply looking at what our long term options might be.


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## GladiusNP (Feb 22, 2003)

If the Magocracy are good at fire magic, maybe they can introduce iron? They should definitely be good sailors.  I think they should be like Vikings - this keeps them as a bit player for the most part (they aren't conquerors, just raiders), but raiding parties could clash with all of the forces, at various times.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't vikings (actually a branch called the Rus) serve as mercenaries to the Byzantines?  This also brings these Magocracy raiders into the service of the other armies - mixing up magic and sort of blending styles to push along advancement.  

Perhaps each party of the Magocracy raiders is lead by a wizard, who captains his own ship.  These wizards aren't the landholders who rule the Magocracy, but are trying to win enough plunder to become a land-holder/ be accepted as a husband for a rich bride, and then get to sit around researching various ways of biomancing up all sorts of creatures.  The real power is back home - these guys are just trying to move one step up the ladder.  

The human warriors that they command could be magically augmented as well - though probably not permanently, except for the most elite soldiers.  Definitely a good thing that the Magocracy are too far to really invade - difficult opponents.

Definitely need names!  Magocracy, if we go the viking route should have a germanic/scandanavian sort of name.  Anyway, I'm picturing the rivermouth delta that the Cressians live on flowing south into the ocean, coming out from a peninsula, now conquered by Cresia, as is the isle of Jonga to the south.  Far to the SW, we'd have the Magocracy, sending out ships to the mainland.  To the northwest, the source of the river is the mountains that the Stempa live in.  Since travel is difficult, this explains why the city-states have developed their own mini-cultures as they spread out, though they share a religion, language, and general beliefs, having spread from one tribe originally.  These mountains run NE to SW , with only a few passes crossing in to Cresia from the lands beyond the mountains.  Beyond the mountains, after a few Stempa cities in the foothills (too provide allies/border skirmishes to the Khanate) we pretty much need to have some fairly barren land, otherwise the Kahnate can set up right next to the Stempa/ Cresians, and do what they like.  Beyond these wastes, we have the river valley home of the Khanate.   

One last point.  If supply is going to temper the strength of the Khanate, as I think it should, we really need to have them use chariots.  Nomadic horsemen are too self-sufficient.  The Khanate needs to have wagons with supplies, spare parts, extra chariot teams, lots of javelins, etc.  Otherwise these guys will pretty much have the run of the place, with mobile, efficient warriors, that are pretty tough to counter.  

Anyway, that's my opinion.  Look forward to hearing the rest of yours.


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## Tonguez (Feb 23, 2003)

It seems to me that with RW sitting out we are getting nowhere fast.

What I suggest then is using the 'Map' described by GladiusNP we each create a Army of 10.000 from one of the Nations described or mentioned earlier in the 'brainstorm' (your choice) and then have them move against Cressia initally and then against each other as each new army is presented.

Developing strategies and counter strategies with each turn and acquiring new 'technology' organically.

*Limitations*

Spell Level 5
Monster CR 0-5* (Each Monster type is a 'technology')
4 starting 'Technologies' (more can be gained in game)

eg Cressian Tech = Druids, Bronze, Beastmen, Horticulture)
eg Jongan Tech = Bards, Fire, Ships, Bronze)
*PC Classes are 'Technologies' NPC classes are 'free'

The 'Map' (_na GladiusNP_)


> I'm picturing the rivermouth delta that the Cressians live on flowing south into the ocean, coming out from a peninsula, now conquered by Cresia, as is the isle of Jonga to the south. Far to the SW, we'd have the Magocracy, sending out ships to the mainland. To the northwest, the source of the river is the mountains that the Stempa live in. Since travel is difficult, this explains why the city-states have developed their own mini-cultures as they spread out, though they share a religion, language, and general beliefs, having spread from one tribe originally. These mountains run NE to SW , with only a few passes crossing in to Cresia from the lands beyond the mountains. Beyond the mountains, after a few Stempa cities in the foothills (too provide allies/border skirmishes to the Khanate) we pretty much need to have some fairly barren land, otherwise the Kahnate can set up right next to the Stempa/ Cresians, and do what they like. Beyond these wastes, we have the river valley home of the Khanate.


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## ajanders (Feb 23, 2003)

*The Stempan Army v1*

Allright Tonguez...I'll open the bidding then.

The Stempan city states are set in the mountains, which means a lot of potentially diverse critters and a lot of good mining.  So given that, I'll add some clerics and see what we can do.

Stempan Society
The Stempans are a lawful people who exist in a strict hierarchy.  There's a big deity on top with a lot of little deities under it.  Each of those deities has clerics under them.  Each of those clerics has citizens and soldiers under them.
A typical city state would be a theocracy worshipping one little deity and acknowledging the rest with varying degrees of affection: this would generally dictate how their diplomacy worked.
To the Stempans, war between city-states is therefore an act of worship, and everyone contributes.
Depending on the exact relationship between the two minor deities, various "Rules of engagement" may be honored in a conflict between city states, some of which would appear comical to outsiders (combat by single champions, combat with only the favored weapons of the deities, subdual damage or "counting coup" only, combat with only clerical spells, combat without any clerical spells, etc...)
The Stempans have a reasonable level of technology and a decent standard of living: this has attracted various humanoids to their cities where they are fitted into the social hierarchy wherever is most appropriate.  For most of them, that's in the rapidly developing social class of "those who fight", which is controlled and led by "those who pray" and supported by "those who work".

The Stempan army thus consists of 10, 000 people and things (which are also people).  Their strengths include:
1.  Clerics (Various domains, but each city state will have only two available, one of which must be Law).
2.  Iron: both for weapons and armor.
3.  Mining and Stonework: they routinely build with stone in their cities and dig shaft mines for minerals.
4. Servant monsters: Ogres.

In a mountain culture, the army is probably infantry again, but equipped with and comfortable in using a variety of weapons, particularly in light of the rules of honor often invoked in their local fights.


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## Sarellion (Feb 23, 2003)

How about making one of these kingdoms a nonhuman one or is this out of the question?


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## s/LaSH (Feb 23, 2003)

*Grargh... I was going to post this twelve hours ago, but couldn't use the Net. If it's a little outdated, please forgive me. Anyway, here's what I though back in those days of yore:*

About the Khanate:

I suppose their increased civilisation is beneficial to the scenario. However, I suggest that it's relatively new to them; they conquered their 'bread-basket' in the past few generations, and so there are still nomadic tribes out there (with little bearing on the coming battle, however). They rule a nation, but the people aren't their own... not that they care.

As a name? Why don't we try something simple, like the Jinn? (I base this off two factors: Genghis Khan's birth name was Temujin, and Jin roughly means 'person' in Japanese).

Their elite Godbloods can have both griffins and chariots, and their troops have good light weaponry - especially bows, developed to counter rival tribes' mobile raiders. They might not have much iron, and definitely can't make it; that's left to the magocracy.

About the Magocracy:

I do like the idea of sorcerer lords on longships. That actually gives meaning to the old stereotype of the sorcerer in his tower going, "I rule you all hahaha". The question is, do they have longships or something different? I don't think tech has advanced to the point where they can develop such efficient raiding vessels, but they are definitely capable of making galleys or triremes... which rely on slaves to row when the wind dies down. Triremes are by necessity limited to fairly coastal regions, because they won't hold together in rough seas, but with limited control over the sea and sky the magocracy can get around this problem for their raids.

As for a name: My deutsch is getting a little rusty, and I can't find a dictionary, but the word Auslander came to mind when considering the idea of an island ruled by exiles from somewhere else. Extrapolating from that, why don't we call their island Ausel, and the people Auselen? (Pronounced: OWSE-ell-enn). They use it as a badge of pride, as the word in their language (descended from Jongan and Cresian mixed with the local tongue) has connotations of superiority. Like "I've escaped your foolish social order'.


Right now the Stempa don't have much reason to get involved in the conflict, I notice. That's probably a good thing, because now they can be dealt with on a case-by-case basis; perhaps the Cresians might seek an alliance with one city or another, setting off political chain reactions in Stempa areas.


The humanoid question: Do humanoids even exist right now? The Auselen have the ability to create them, and in fact may already have begun to do so with servant races (I'm thinking halflings because they're unobtrusive). If they do ever come about, it's likely to be as a result of magical meddling by Auselen mercenary-mages.


The geography question: The Jongan island was defined by RW as being to the West of Cresia. That means the Cresian River comes from the North-East (roughly speaking). It serves as a thoroughfare for Cresian traffic, and flows from the Stempan mountains. Thus, there is some trade between the Stempa and the Cresians both along the river and along the coast.

The Auselen island lies to the south, across a channel from Cresia. The channel is quite wide, perhaps a hundred miles - Jonga was 30 miles offshore. Ausel itself is quite big, at least a hundred miles across, and while it's not as luxurious as Cresia, it's still capable of supporting its population. The raiders aren't focused on bringing back food or slaves so much as proving themselves and getting treasure (good slaves count).

Ausel is probably covered with jungle, dry tropical forest, or maybe some kind of conifer (if we're assuming this exercise is Northern hemisphere). Perhaps a combination? The conifers grow on the mountains, while the lowlands are jungle or cleared pasture.

The Auselen Channel comes off the West Sea and disappears somewhere in the East. We don't know how far the continent extends up beyond Stempa, but we don't really care. As far as we know, Cresia occupies the entire bottom-left corner.

The Jinn come from a series of moors, highlands and hilly countries (no mountains) to the East or north-east of Cresia. There's a mountain range between them and Cresia, but it stops parallel with Stempa, so an invasion force could concievable march around there (there are perhaps two hundred miles between Stempa and the mountains). Their territory extends for five or six hundred miles beyond the mountains, to an area similar to Cresia on the southern coast of the continent that's perhaps 500 miles across.

The rivers are very important. Cresia is divided by the Cresian River which starts in Stempa, and it's a mainstay of freight and communication with their enhanced fleet capabilities. Freshwater dolphins and whales now exist, and the river has been dug out along a central spine to allow many ships to pass that way. It's one of the wonders of the world. Similarly, the Jinn bread-basket province is also housed around a river, flowing from the North and fed by streams flowing through the hills from the separating mountain range. The rest of their territory is open, rough and comparatively infertile.

The entire 'battlefield' extends 1000 miles north to south (Stempa 400 miles of rough terrain, Cresia another 400, the Auselen channel 100 and Ausel itself another 100). From east to west, it's about nine hundred and thirty miles (Jonga to Cresia: 30, Cresia: 400, another 50-100 miles of mountains, then 300-350 miles of broken Jinn terrain and 200 miles of the breadbasket province, seat of the Khan and the Godbloods). 

This does pose problems for the Jinn: they have to send their troops about 700 miles from the furthest reaches of their realm to reach the easy passage around the mountains, and then another 4-600 to reach the heart of Cresia (should they be able to penetrate that far).

I think snow can be expected only in the mountains or during cold winters in North Stempa, so that's not really a problem. We're still north of the Tropics, so no monsoon-type weather can realistically be expected. Winter may be cold, but it won't kill armies.

Right, that about covers my contributions this time around. I shall return...


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Feb 24, 2003)

Hey, I think the Jinn having most of their nomads as Centaurs is an idea that needs implementing.  We needs a demi-human race and the chariots will still let us use traditional anti-cavalry tactics against them without making them totally devastating.  Also, I would like to posit that the Centaur take over of the River of Heaven was a joyous occasion through which the demon possessed prior rulers were destroyed.  The Khan is thus a savior who generously shares much of his power with the elite wizards and clerics who aided his takeover, they are now formed into a beauracracy/church/academy known as the Celestial towers while the Khan's personal followers and administrators/chieftains are known as the Khan's Table Men, referring not to a piece of furniture but rather the unusual rock formation on which they must meet, pledge to the Khan, and feast twice a year.  The family of the Khan are strictly of Centaur blood but the table includes among its number most of the remaining god-blooded members of the deposed order.  Men from whom the Khan's shamans were able to dispell the demonic taint.  They are strictly loyal to the Khan and have been given the secret of riding griffins.

That being said.

The Jinn have five Tamarchs under the Auspices of the Khan and Heaven.  Each Tamarch is a more or less permanent military formation consisting of ten thousand men, resources to support them, and supporting personnel from the Heavenly Beauracracy and the Table of the Khan.  Three of the Tamarchs have been given their own border to defend.  Another Tamarch occupies and protects the river valley and the fifth Tamarch serves the Khan in his travels.   Each Tamarch is lead by a council consisting of one high officer from the tower, the table, and the ranks, a member of the royal family not in direct line for the throne, a supply officer, a cartographer, and presided over by the apointed general of the Khan.  This system is designed to simultaneously be representative of the diverse interests of the Tamarch, prevent the Tamarch moving to coup, and keep the authority of tactical command cleanly and clearly in the hands of the very competent and clever appointed general.

Each tamarch is subdived into 20 wings of 500.  These wings rotate between the five Tamarchs on a regular basis and have a command corp paralleling that of the Tamarch though the royal blood representative is absent and as is the representative of the ranks.  The rotation enforces a loyalty to the khan as opposed to the Tamarch and ensures that each Tamarch has soldiers familiar with the duty of every other Tamarch in its ranks at all times.  Each Tamarch includes in its rank a specialist scouting/intelligence/translation wing, which does not rotate, two engineering/siege wings, a police wing, which only rotates out officers on an individual basis, a wing dedicated to the celestial towers, and a wing of the King's Table

The eight thousand men of the fighting wings are enlisted for 16 years though most spend at least six of those years in garrison duty, training, and serving in less elite formations.  They are rotated to a new Tamarch every two years.  Centaur members of the Wing are allowed to participate in family life as their naturaly nomadic nature and communal attitude towards child-rearing make this less problematic than among more humanoid troops.  Other troops must seek special permission to marry and maintain a family.  Many members of the Tamarch are descendents of prior members.  

Each wing consists of two two hundred man fighting units and fifty man special group containing the officer's corp and the units support troops.  One of the two hundred man groups is invariably Centaur and the other consists of humanoids from the various subject or neighboring peoples.  The two hundred man groups are further dubdivided into groups of fifty and then ten.  The Centaur group will generally be evenly split between heavy and medium cavalry.  The Humanoid groups are more various as the Jinn attempt to take account of local specialties or needs, though one will be a light mobile formation with wilderness skills, but at least half of the group will consist of highly disciplined medium infantry trained to fight in a variety of formations, sieges, foritifications, and to ride into battle on the backs of Centaurs or chariots and then dismount.  The special group specializes in the use of chariots, war engines, and unusual mounts and will always include a great many spell casters.  Wings are the basic order of march and will make us of many carriages and servitors such as minor golems, undead, herd animals, and paid workers to care for them.

All Centaurs are armed with ranged weapons.  The standard weapon is a composite bow adjusted for Centaur strength.  These are a highly revered part of their equipment.  Medium cavalry is also armed with light lances, lassoes or whips, flails, and hatchetts and armored with light barding such as cotton, leather, or shell and a medium shield.  They are also trained to abandon much of their armor and act as light cavalry and many are expereinced enough to use a buckler and either another weapon of a large flail.  Heavy cavalry is armed with heavy lances, scalloped axes or great clubs, and bolas and armored with medium barding such as chain or scale mail or properly treated hide armor, a surcoat for splendour and weather, and a large shield.  Officers and NCOs are fairly likely to have enchanted weapons and unusual equipment.  Each group will have a pair of signals officers and their command staff.  They are also likely to have a pair with training in magic use at least one of whom will be a cleric, druid, or shaman.  In battle these groups are very often accompanied by a chariot of special troops with stronger magic and unusual equipment.

The medium infantry are armed with light bows or slings, generally a mixture, darts, nets, light lances, morning stars, and entrenching tools, not at all the term they would use for it but equivalent to very utilizable hatchets, and armored with large shields and either hide or scale.  They are also accompanied by signals officers and will always have someone trained in divine magic among them.  Many of them will be equipped with alchemical items.  

The Jinn are adept at fast fortifications and will have several put up before an anticipated battle, but their primary strength is fast marching and good scouting.  A Tamarch can march much faster than most armies and is also very adept at confusing enemy scouts and spell casters, enabling them to engage the enemy on their own terms and occupy key positions quickly.  They make use of very dispersed marching orders using their fluid organization and the rapidity of griffin couriers/scouts.

In battle they work to surround the enemy and baffle him with extensive missle fire, very mobile well supported magic users, confusing formations, and infantry that will quickly deploy in favorable terrain.   They reserve shock assets until the enemy has been sufficiently softened or confused to make a charge a killing blow and the enemies magical resources exhausted.    

They are very cautious in the face of enemy magic, as they were much affected by the hordes of undead they faced in conquering the river valley.  They are also very cautious about supply, having learned long ago the importance of it in desert fighting and the advantages of plentiful ammunition.  They dislike sieges, though they also recognize their necessity and love artillery in the field.

In the case of an extended war the response will likely consist of a Tamarch, two in an extreme situation, backed up by militia, less elite formations, garrison units, and conscripts.

That's what I got for now.


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## s/LaSH (Feb 24, 2003)

Centauric Jinn do have a small problem: the standard centaur is CR3, making the Tamarchs vastly elite compared to standard armies of the West - their basic soldier (in half the Tamarch) is much better than any human conscript and could probably beat many veterans in one-on-one combat.

Further, the question of the number of Tamarchs comes to mind. Do the Jinn really need to defend their borders? If so, from what? Or who? As a recently nomadic people, I'd be surprised if they quickly developed a knack for defensive warfare (as opposed to the high mobility nomads espouse).

The centaurs might have a place in the coming conflict, or might already have a presence - but I strongly recommend scaling them back. Perhaps the Auselen modified a single tribe of nomads, and the Khan and his kin are centaurs (which enabled them to dominate their neighbours one-on-one), but their numbers are limited to a few thousands.

As for the Tamarchs: I suppose I can envision the Jinn having border patrols, and they would probably be structured in the aforementioned fashion, albeit with far fewer centaurs. Warponies would be common amongst the skirmish cavalry wings, but no human heavy cavalry (the centaurs fill that role). Perhaps half a Tamarch is cavalry; the rest is foot soldiers (although they too might have horses or ponies, they don't have the skill to ride them in battle, and many of the Heaven River troopers don't have horses at all).

It's unlikely that the Jinn will have much skill in siege warfare. Historically, nomads such as the Mongols were horribly bad at sieges; I don't know why. With maybe one third - one half their troops drawn from the Heaven River people, they will have some knowledge of how cities work, but the Heaven River people were fairly much unified under their demonic rulers and never had to participate in siege warfare so they don't understand it either. The only way the Jinn could beat fortified opponents was to encircle their cities and starve them out; the demon rulers started preying on their own people and were largely overthrown by their disgruntled subjects, although Jinn soldiers smuggled into the cities by insurgents did a lot of the fighting.

Golems are unrealistic at this point. Official sources cite them as requiring Limited Wish at the least, and that's well beyond current magical technology. Homonculi and animated objects are possible, however.

The rest of Strangemonkey's suggestions are good.

All right, I think the antagonist is detailed: the Jinn want to invade Cresia for its fertile ground. Now we need to know the rough capabilities of Cresia, Stempa and Ausel. (The last two are technically bystanders, but they're sure to take sides.)

Cresia is not a warlike state. They maintain a standing army, not being stupid; I'd surmise it has perhaps 10,000 soldiers. Perhaps one thousand beastmen (the elite Delta) serve as special forces; while not part of the above-mentioned armed forces, Cresia can also field maybe two thousand druids and sorcerers higher than first level. (Note that they can probably triple their troops with conscription.) Separate to this, they have a powerful navy, with perhaps two thousand large ships (one thousand are deep-sea capable, the rest are shallow-keeled riverboats and shore vessels). Each ship can carry perhaps 50 marines, although they only have about 4000 marines total. Each ship has two Controllers: these druids control the wind and the cetaceans that make the boat move. Finally, there are maybe 1000 scurvy sea dogs, arr, in the armed forces; they perform submarine patrols.

That makes roughly 17,000 soldiers or combat personell in Cresia. Now, they're technically the closest to Ausel, so they might have a few advantages from trade... of course, they also suffer the occasional raid, and so most of their naval forces are foundon the south coast. Their land armies are found more along the Stempan border, because of a little belligerance on a certain city-state's part in the past. That said, I think they'd probably have a few Auselen secret weapons - combat monsters. No aquatic monsters (the Auselen enjoy their aquatic dominance), and the beasts aren't too mobile so they can't interrupt raids... anyone have any ideas?

As for the Stempa, they're militarily strong but divided. They could probably equal the Jinn in raw numbers, and their troops are likely to be a little tougher and better-equipped (tower shields, plate armour, long spears and effective swords, as well as their bows (picked up from the Jinn centuries ago)). However, they don't see themselves as being a part of this conflict.

The Auselen have a warrior culture too, except they tend to rely on magic a lot more - even their frontline soldiers are expected to pick up a few spells. I surmise that they'd be limited to perhaps a thousand keelships, each with a crew of one hundred sorcerer-warriors (some of whom are elite high-level types). Each keelship is owned by a different sorcerer-lord (some of whom are capable of casting sixth- and seventh-level spells, but these mighty types tend to stay home, having proven their worth). Ten thousand troops, tops - and most would probably stay at home. However, their magical prowess would likely be very important in a fight...

Any more thoughts? I think we need to determine how many Stempa city-states there are...


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Feb 25, 2003)

s/LaSH said:
			
		

> *Centauric Jinn do have a small problem: the standard centaur is CR3, making the Tamarchs vastly elite compared to standard armies of the West - their basic soldier (in half the Tamarch) is much better than any human conscript and could probably beat many veterans in one-on-one combat.
> 
> Further, the question of the number of Tamarchs comes to mind. Do the Jinn really need to defend their borders? If so, from what? Or who? As a recently nomadic people, I'd be surprised if they quickly developed a knack for defensive warfare (as opposed to the high mobility nomads espouse).
> 
> ...




Hmmm, I think the Centaurs work pretty well as a man on a well trained horse should be a fairly high CR in the first place and I am willing to accept a Centaur with dimished abilities.  I think we need to account for the differences in combat created by fantasy races eventually and the Centaurs are a good opporunity to do so without sending us into the realm of night attacking orcs or what not.

Historically, nomadic empires have always felt the need to reorganize their military into semi-permanent formations.  They do this in order to preserve the advantage of nomadic mobility and flexibility while keeping themselves prepared against incursions by civilized foes or vassal uprisings.  Persians, Medes, and Mongols all did this.  The huns kept a fairly normal nomadic culture but they also didn't try to rule anyone.   I modelled the Tamarchs off of the Mongol system, but they could work during any period as they are basically big well organized and supported camps.  Tamarchs also serve as schools and means to create a loyal 'middle class' out of cashed out veterans.  Each Tamarch would operate with a great deal of autonomy and be allowed to participate in small scale conquest and looting in addition to defensive work.

While I agree that the Jinns won't be that great at siege warfare, each Tamarch can probably only pull off one good siege at a time, but the Mongols were actually very adept at siege warfare having learned a great deal from their conquests.  Recall that it was the Mongols who took down the unassailable fortresses of the old man of the mountains.  Siege units were elite units, however, and they were very rarely present in the forces that the Mongols sent to the west which is where their reputation for poor sieges comes from.  The Persians and Medes were also very adept at sieges.   

Sorry about the golems thing, I was thinking more along the lines of animated objects and servitors not the hulking combat machines we all know and love.

I may be operating under a misconception vs. the Jinn, early on in the thread I thought we were discussing the Jinn as a very very large empire bordering on strange peoples we had not even discussed as well as the Cressians.  If we are considering a much smaller people than this scale certainly won't work.  But if we are thinking on that scale then I see the Tamarch as the military formation the Cressians are most likely to face.  Should the Cressians manage to repulse it when they face it, for what ever reason, than they will likely see no further threats from the Jinn for sometime.


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## Morgenstern (Feb 25, 2003)

First off, I wanted to say after putting forward a request for a mogol-type fation, I think that mogol centuars having conquered another smaller culture and the reulting fusion taking the field is just brillinat. I love this faction already .

Jinn seemed like a minimally functional name, but wit a linguistic tie to the tamarchs, and a tip of the hat to ol' Tamujin, i'd like to rename them Ta'jinn. let 'jinn' be their word for people, and Ta'jinn mean 'The People' (almost universally, early tribal cultures refered to themselves as The People, with other tribes just being people). If the more xenophobic option described below is used, then any of the tribes ont he plains earns the title Jinn (which may be part of the Cressian's confusion about their name - they meet Jinn before Ta'Jinn), but the non-plains folk may not initially deserve recognition as people at all...

So am I correct in the understanding that out on these large plains we we looking at several wildly different tribes (not all of them human) and that their shared experience is that they all live there, and they all have some members who are godblooded (sorcerers)? The Centaurs were reasonably militant and conquered the griffin riders and absorbed them, and the resulting larger, more diverse tribe is now looking for new lands to add to their domain? A culture that has prospered by absorbtion may be looking to do so again. They may pick a fight with the Stempian or the Crssians because they want to absorb their technologies. Stempian metalworking and Cressian horticulture are valuable prizes, possibly as much or moreso than the land... Or it may be that the plains tribes are xenophobic towards outsiders, and that any people not so blessed as to have godblooded members are clarly inferior and fit only to be enslaved. I'd be cool with that too .

As to the functional size of this khanate, I'd say it does have to come down a bit. One tamarch on patrol, one assigned to the heartlands/reserves, and one for offense is probably plenty. A fourth might be reasonable if, _and only if_, it's a two-front war against the Stempians and the Cressians at the same time.

I'm also thinking 4th level spells might be a good cap at the outset of hostilites, with limited 5th being developed during, and a range of 5th level spells being known at the conclusion. Particularly as the level required to cast the 5th level spells may be rarely achieved by any of these groups. Would it be reasonable to simply establish a cap on single-class levels? So that pretty much no class has members over 9th level at the outset (maybe a few multiclassed champions with total levels higher than that) but by the end, up to 12th level in a single class is possible? Might provide some comparison for what different groups are capable of.


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## Morgenstern (Feb 25, 2003)

Oh yeah, I also wanted to express aproval for the use of a slightly less potent centaur. Personally, I have no idea why they have +8 Strength. The human torsoes never struck me as being that much more powerful than a human's (+4 would be streching my credulity considerably) and the important part, greater load bearing capacity and lifting, is already doubled over a human's by the change in size category. The Greek models vary from vicious savages (at least when drunk, like that's all that different than humans) to enlightened beings who have tutored heroes.

A potent, resonably enlightened centaur rulership with a natural distrust of anyone who doesn't share in the basic lifestyles imposed by nomadic existence could make for a very interesting ruling body. Meld in the attitudes of the griffin riding tribe (not sure I'm all that keen on demon worshiping cultists) who were starting to get more settled, and shake-not-stir .


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Feb 25, 2003)

The demon worshipping cultists are long gone.  All that's left are their undead raising, object animating, and thing conjuring assitants.  I agree that the +8 is no good for the sort of Centaurs I would be talking about here.  I was thinking +2 for most.  Maybe the royal line will get the huge bonuses.

I wanna see what the other opponents look like.  Given our current geography are their any naval powers aside from the Cressians and the Viking mages?  I really wanted to see some Stempan naval cities out there, but I can deal.


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## Tonguez (Feb 25, 2003)

Dr. Strangemonkey said:
			
		

> *
> While I agree that the Jinns won't be that great at siege warfare, each Tamarch can probably only pull off one good siege at a time, but the Mongols were actually very adept at siege warfare having learned a great deal from their conquests.  Recall that it was the Mongols who took down the unassailable fortresses of the old man of the mountains.  Siege units were elite units, however, and they were very rarely present in the forces that the Mongols sent to the west which is where their reputation for poor sieges comes from.  The Persians and Medes were also very adept at sieges *




Not entirely accurate as the 'Mongol' peoples were never very good at seige warfare or city administration. What they were good at was incorporating the peoples they had conquered earlier and using them and their skills. As such the elite seige specialist used by the Mongol army were ususally Chinese 'mecenaries'.

Now back to the Jinn - after reviewing the writeups the Jinnwhilst awesome in concept (and eminently yoinkable) are probably too 'overpowered' for the purposes of our scenario

From what I gleaned via a quick read:



> Stempa – Mountain based city-states
> Technology: Clerics, Iron, Mining, Ogres
> Military: Infantry
> 
> ...




the Jinn have about 8 Technologies and the best military in the known world - compared to everyone else they are practically unstopable


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## GladiusNP (Feb 25, 2003)

I'm not so sure we do need to take centaurs down a notch.  If there's only two hundred in a Tamarch (and regardless of the size of the Ta'Jinn Empire, it seems to be that a Tamarch is what the Cressians would face), they are going to have serious problems vs. the Lycanthropic warriors, of which there are at least that many, though one thousand seems a better number.    

Assuming a bare minimum of 1st-level commoner (direct from the MM) a werewolf can keep pace with a centaur, and though not as dangerous in combat, they still have their trump-card, damage resistance.  Also, these are the weakest, least effective beastmen - many are probably accomplished warriors.  

For the Stempa, I think that Ogres would be very cool.  Fits in with the sort of brute force, run to armies together approach of ritualized religious conflicts. (I read somewhere that ancient Greeks were considered somewhat suicidal by the Persians after seeing how two greek armies fought each other, pretty much a charge into melee wearing heavy armor).   The Stempa probably will be slightly disadvantaged in the conflict, except for the fact they have iron, which will make short work of bronze shields. 

In regard to the number of city-states, I'd pick seven as a figure that we can easily use, but keeps variety up.  I'd suggest two factions, divided over one of the religious conflicts that got out of hand.  One has more numbers, and the other side pulls in the Cressians to help.  That's when the Ta'Jinn show up.

City-states (Summary at bottom)- 
Thelia - Worshippers of Arcsos, a god of retribution, warfare and law.  The Thelians are the leaders of the smaller of the factions, and the largest city-state.  They have managed to hold back for some time the onslaught of the other Stempa due to their superior military leaders and decent resources - they have a large amount of territory, and a large, highly trained army.  The city of Thelia is located on a fertile strip of land, near to Cressia.  They are allies with.....

Sirenos - To the south of the Cressian river and Altheea lies a large natural bay.  Sirenos, and it's sister city Sirrednos, are on opposite sides of this harbour.  Both worship the goddess Sirine, patron of the tides, moon, and sailors.  Sirenos has only a small army, but has considerable naval strength, as does....

Sirrednos - The sister city of Sirenos, Sirrednos is lead by priestesses of Sirine.  Though it is smaller than Sirenos, Sirrednos is famous for the oracle who resides in a temple within the city.  Along with Sirenos, they are allied to Thelia.

Altheea - Worshippers of Beros, a god of trade, law, and coin.  Altheea is located on the river which runs into Cresia.  They are river traders, and have the closest ties to the Cressians.  Their army is well equipped, but small and not particularly well led.  They were dragged into the conflict by close ties with the Thelians.  They eventually pull in the Cressians to fight the other faction, lead by the soldiers of...

Tarthus - Followers of Iradne, a goddess of freedom, battle and virtue.  Tarthus is located on the borders of the Jinn grasslands. The third-largest city-state, Tarthus' army defeated the Thelians.  Retaliation on a massive scale lead to the current conflict.  Tarthus has many religious temples, and is the most tolerant of the Stempa to new ideas and freedom of worship.  Their army is small, but very well-trained and led by excellent generals.  They are aided by....

Lesthen- Devoted to Mastos, a god of craft, iron, and the forge.  Located to the south of Tarthus, and also on the Jinn border, Lesthen is the second largest city-state.  They have the best equipment, though their army is only mid-sized.  To their immediate east lies....

Belephthos - The faithful of Crossus, god of strength, athleticism, and freedom.  Located in the center of Stempa, they are the first to have developed ties with the Ogres.  They have a small city - they are in the most rugged terrain in Stempa.  They fight well, but are poorly supplied, and very small.  They are known for the quality of their recruits rather than elite generals.  They fight with Tarthus, as does the city of....

Colothus - Found to the south of Lesthen, on a narrow peninsula, Colosthus follow Piscenes, god of the ocean and storms.  Colosthus has a strong navy, and a good sized army.  They are probably the best at Amphibous assault of the Stempa, and live in an excellent location, with shellfish found in the shallows to the west of the city, and many fish swimming in the deeps to the east.  They follow Tarthus, along with....

Selonia - Lead by priests of Cumidne, goddess of secrets, lore, and the sky.  Good, arable location, but only mid-sized.  Army is not inconsiderable, but only mid-sized.  They sided with Tarthus, like....

Epicus - Worshippers of Epardne, goddess of healing, surgeons, and herbs.  Naturally occuring hot-springs lead to many seeking healing to come to this city.  They have a small navy, and not much of an army.  They are sworn to Tarthus, as are the soldiers of....

Lernea - The Lerneans are worshippers of Ephros, god of the harvest, seasons, and change.  Another of the middle sized cities.  Army is not particularly well-trained, but reasonable equipment and size makes up for that.

Here is a summation, largest down to smallest.  The letters indicates who follows which city-state, Thelia (TH) or Tarthus (TA)

Thelia (TH)
Lesthen (TA)
Tarthus (TA)
Colosthus (TA)
Sirenos (TH)
Altheea (TH)
Lernea (TA)
Sirrednos (TH)
Selonia (TA)
Epicus (TA)
Belephthos (TA)

Maybe we could set up a small scenario, and see how what we've got goes, picking out battles to see how they run.  My suggestion would be Altheea pulls in Cressia to help Thelia.  They help hold the Tarthusian forces back.  The Ta' Jinn Tamarch, unbeknownst to the Cressians, then attack Lesthen.  The Tarthusians, fighting on two fronts, are pushed back by the Thelians and Cressian.  The Cressians then meet a small advance force of the Ta'Jinn.  Confluct ensues.  The Auselen generally ally according to whatever the individual ship-captain decides.


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## s/LaSH (Feb 25, 2003)

Some points as I see them:

* The Ta'jinn (good name, btw) are a fairly big empire, slightly larger than Cresia itself in terms of area, and more militaristic. The area of concern extends only to the other side of the fertile ground along the Heaven River, but I suppose they might have extra territory out the other side, probably more steppes. More Tamarchs could be tied up there, dealing with rebellious nomads or raiders from outside their borders.

Thus, the total number of soldiers they can field against new conquests is limited slightly (although in a war of anihilation they are probably capable of killing anything that stands in their way).

*Siege warfare might not be their forte, but with big numbers and assorted spec-ops groups like that they're probably capable of taking fortified cities. They know it would hurt them, however, and their spies like the look of Cresia a lot more - its open cities are ripe for the plucking, or so they assume.

* Weakened centaurs are fine. Really, their mobility gives them an unfair advantage on the battlefield anyway, something not really reflected in challenge ratings, and that assesses them as quite tough anyway. Basically, a centaur in this scenario should be comparable to a human, but with the added mobility of its equine relatives. Tougher centaurs are, of course, leveled, and I'm sure stronger specimens can be found for elite formations just like strong humans sometimes occur.



> The Greek models vary from vicious savages (at least when drunk, like that's all that different than humans) to enlightened beings who have tutored heroes.




So basically running the full gamut of humanity, then. Them Greeks were very fond of assigning human qualities to inhuman entities... look at Zeus, a sterling example of manhood.

*Stempan naval cities are a certainty. They control 400 miles of terrain north of Cresia, so they logically have some coast. Revising my earlier figures, if we assume that Stempa is roughly divided into sixteen hundred-mile territorial squares, there are probably 4 coastal cities and another 2 at the head of the Cresian River. (There are a further six hill cities with sheep and cavalry, and four mountain cities with very strong warrior traditions; the hill cities are closest to Cresia.)

Assuming that there are maybe 40,000 standing military amongst the Stempans (including elites and casters), each city can field 2500 soldiers. I'd assume that the galleys of the four coastal cities would be manned with 20 soldiers apiece, plus slaves to row them; if they reserve 500 soldiers to guard the city, they can therefore field maybe one hundred ships each, albeit with superior hull technology (sharpened by constant internecine conflict). Stempan war vessels total 400, compared to 2000 (1000 sea-capable) for Cresia and 100 heavily armed vessels for Ausel (I made a mathematical error in my previous discussion; 100 hulls is about right for the magocracy).

However, Stempan vessels carry ramming prows, catapults and ballistae, and probably some kind of napalm (much as the good old Greeks did). They can definitely hold their own, although if only one city gets involved it's doomed by overwhelming numbers.

* Finally, we're still going for Ta'jinn chariots, right? A centaur chariot could be incredibly effective on the battlefield, as a concentration of deadly force previously unconcieved. Plus it's not as vulnerable to mystic assault from Cresian animal priestesses.


Incidentally, I'm ready to start the actual scenario when you guys are...


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## s/LaSH (Feb 25, 2003)

When it rains, it pours... two posts come up while I'm typing.

Tonguez: I'm not certain the Ta'jinn are overpowered. I can't see them using heavy armour, especially not as skirmisher cavalry; the Stempans have the advantage in that field, I think. And don't forget, any conflict in Cresia is going to kill their principal advantage: overwhelming mobility. The Jongans discovered the hard way that the Cresians were very good at making you walk into a place you really didn't want to be, like a flailing rose bush. While Cresia isn't ready for war, they can quickly grow the plants needed to repel an entire Tamarch (pending the development of fresh tactics on the Ta'jinni part).

GladiusNP: I wasn't willing to do the grunt work on Stempa, so good work there. It's past midnight in my time zone, so I can't integrate my post with yours right now, but I like what you've got. Two suggestions: First, naval powers are more Greek; Second, I'm not certain the Stempans need to be involved in the conflict at the beginning, because if they're the fulcrum they'll probably be wiped out between the Cresians and the Ta'Jinn, and I always envisioned them as standing off to the side until someone bought off a city-state or two. But on the other hand, the feudal nature does reflect the reason they're not conquering Cresia themselves... perhaps the feud is going on except without foreign interference, and when the Tamarch passes to the East the winning Tarthusian faction gets nervous and hostilities grind to a halt... temporarily, at least.

That's what I think, anyway.


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## Morgenstern (Feb 25, 2003)

Tonguez said:
			
		

> Not entirely accurate as the 'Mongol' peoples were never very good at seige warfare or city administration. What they were good at was incorporating the peoples they had conquered earlier and using them and their skills. As such the elite seige specialist used by the Mongol army were ususally Chinese 'mecenaries'.




I agree. Mongols make good inspiration for the Ta'Jinn (glad folks like the name), but this is that kind of culture at an earlier stage of development, and 'devolving' them a bit will help level the playing field, and better yet, force them to develope tactics rather than ariving on the field fully formed.



> Now back to the Jinn - after reviewing the writeups the Ta'Jinn, whilst awesome in concept (and eminently yoinkable) are probably too 'overpowered' for the purposes of our scenario
> 
> From what I gleaned via a quick read:
> 
> ...




The Stempa's inernal conflicts suggest they should be given regular access to one technology the others have yet to employ on a scale large enough to make difference: spies.

The Ausel (like that name quite a bit ) are still being refined conceptually. 

I would adjust the above list in the following ways: the Stempa should be the only folks on the field with heavy armor. It's reserved for elite units, while meium armor is reasonably common. Back everyone else down a notch from their (elites in medium, regulars in light). That adds a technology, and changes their military type from just infantry to skirmisher/marines, medium infantry, and heavy infantry.

I'd cut the Ta'Jinn back a bit by removing chariots (if you were the rulling class, would you want to have something like that hitched to your butt? Sure, it provides cover to the guy in it, but the critter up front is screwed...). Perhaps they'll develope it, but I think the Cressians have the strongest claim on this technology~ they have four-legged powerplants that are expendible, and have already discovered the joys of animal pulled vehicles from their naval excursions). I would drop the seige technolgy as not haveing been developed yet. Their internal squables didn't seem to involve a lot of fortress cracking, and they have no established external enemies to drive it's developement. Finally, I'd think undead would be anathema to them, the tools of the great enemy. The creation of minor constructs still seems rather clever though , so perhaps more of a substitution than a deduction. Finally, for their troops, I'd reduce the prominence of griffon riders. They're there, but Id suggest their numbers are small enoug and the utility high enough that they're employed as scouts, couriers, and extremely mobile magic platforms, not as massed units for direct physcial strikes. 

Resated this way we have:







> Stempa – Mountain based city-states
> Politics: Divisive religions control
> Magic type(s): Moderate use of Clerics (multiple domains)
> Technology: Heavy Armor, Iron, Mining, Ogres, Spies
> ...




There's a lot happening in the set up of this round. What did I miss in the above summary?


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## s/LaSH (Feb 25, 2003)

Morgenstern said:
			
		

> *
> There's a lot happening in the set up of this round. What did I miss in the above summary? *




I think you missed the Cresian naval forces... while they're not too useful against a Ta'jinn invasion, the Cresian River has been excavated and maintained with a deep central channel that allows ships to navigate its entire length without hindrance, and that is an advantage. (Plus there are the scurvy sea dogs, arr, and their cetacean technology.) I think Cresia might have a few monster units, too, from Auselen traders.

I'd agree that the griffin riders aren't a predominant battlefield force. As they're ridden by godsblood sorcerers, by and large, they're very useful in surgical strikes that do massive damage very quickly.

Chariots... good point. The question is, Do the Cresians have the inclination to develop them? Their nation is largely built around agriculture and the Cresian River, at least to my mind, but the river is days' travel from most regions of Cresia, even though it's the spine of trade. So they have developed roads, and carts (although some regions might use dolphins in irrigation channels instead of land-based beasts of burden). From there, chariots might have been developed, especially during the expansionist phase, and most of Cresia was plains at that point. I think the Cresians are likely to have chariots, all things considered, and reliable ones too.

Does anyone think the Cresians would have access to elephants or mammoths? Probably not, all things considered. I've looked at the size of the battlefield, and from Jonga to the distant reaches of the Ta'jinn lands it's not quite as wide as Turkey (with Cyprus taking the role of Ausel). Hm, that could be useful for further geographical positioning...


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## Morgenstern (Feb 26, 2003)

Ah...! Then Cressians need to be duly noted as having one more technology, and a doozy at that: roads.

Cavalry is great and all, but nobody runs all cav armies. Road multiply the mobility of infantry forces and make wheel-based supply lines possible in your own territories. Excellent. This give the Cressian a great advantage compared to the other three cultures.


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## GladiusNP (Feb 26, 2003)

This is beginning to look pretty good.

s/LASH - agreed about naval powers.  Maybe we could add in the four cities you mentioned.  These would be, if I am picturing Stempa correctly, at the southernmost part?  Altheea is still the most connected to Cresia, but now we have 11 city states, and Altheea is no longer the best on water.  The new ones are...

Sirenos - To the south of the Cressian river and Altheea lies a large natural bay.  Sirenos, and it's sister city Sirrednos, are on opposite sides of this harbour.  Both worship the goddess Sirine, patron of the tides, moon, and sailors.  Sirenos has only a small army, but has considerable naval strength, as does....

Sirrednos - The sister city of Sirenos, Sirrednos is lead by priestesses of Sirine.  Though it is smaller than Sirenos, Sirrednos is famous for the oracle who resides in a temple within the city.  Along with Sirenos, they are allied to Thelia.

Colothus - Found to the south of Lesthen, on a narrow peninsula, Colosthus follow Piscenes, god of the ocean and storms.  Colosthus has a strong navy, and a good sized army.  They are probably the best at Amphibous assault of the Stempa, and live in an excellent location, with shellfish found in the shallows to the west of the city, and many fish swimming in the deeps to the east.  They follow Tarthus. 

Epicus - Worshippers of Epardne, goddess of healing, surgeons, and herbs.  Naturally occuring hot-springs lead to many seeking healing to come to this city.  They have a small navy, and not much of an army.  

Check my previous post for the entire list of city-states, that we have so far.  

I also think that we should save some ideas for innovations developed during the conflict.  (The centaur war-chariot comes to mind, developed by the Ta'Jinn when they fight Cressia and get mauled by charioteers).  I like that only the Stempa have heavy armor - these guys can chew you up in close combat, but have difficulty getting in range to do that.  I'm happy to leave Stempa's conflict as background - Maybe the Cressians pull the Stempa in through Altheea.

I think that the first conflict/ skirmish should be small.  My suggestion would be a wing of Heaven River infantry (light scout equipment) meeting a ranging patrol of Cressian infantry, lead by a beastman or druid.  If we slowly add stuff, it will be easier.


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Feb 26, 2003)

I personally do like the idea of the Jinn and the Cressians meeting through Stempa.  If they've had a common border with any interaction across they will be too prepared for each others tactics.  Letu suppose that there is a fair amount of wilderness between the areas the Cressians and Jinn normally inhabit, but that the Jinn have never sent a Tamarch through that border as they are initially much more interested in their other borders and the Stempa.  After the Skirmish conflict, however, the Jinn become much more interested as they view the Cressians frequent use of battle magic and beasts as a potentially interesting new set of skillsets to add to their empire and their tales of battle.

The Cressians will thus become aware of the Jinn through the conflicts in Stempa and potentially aware of them as the jinn begin to prepare to move a Tamarch through the no-man's land.

I was thinking that the little constructs and undead were mostly useful as more nimble beasts of burden adding to the technology of quick marchers that the Jinn possess overall.  Not to their combat effectiveness.  The griffin riders are far to valuable to be used in combat against anything other than a massive supernatural threat, they would be strictly used for couriers and scouts.  And I noticed a few things missing from the Cressian tech list.  So a further modification to make certain I have everything right.

Stempa – Mountain based city-states
Politics: Divisive religions control
Magic type(s): Moderate use of Clerics (multiple domains)
Technology: Heavy Armor, Iron, Mining, Ogres, Spies
Military: Skirmisher/Marines, Medium Infantry, Heavy Infantry

Jinn- Steepe Nomads
Politics: Central authority, influenced by council of diverse intrests
Magic type(s): Light use of Wizards and Clerics (scrying and communication, healing and blessing)
Technology: Centaurs, Griffins, Archery, Fighters, Strong Marchers
Military: Cavalry archers , Medium Cavalry, Medium Infantry, Aerial Reconnaisance

Ausel – Island based raiders
Politics: Magical Aristocracy?
Magic Type(s): Heavy use of Wizards and Sorcerors
Technology: Ships, Scorcerers, Outsiders 
Military: Infantry, Naval raiders, siege engines, alchemy

Cressia - Plains farmers
Politics: Theocracy with mixed orders and low level democracy
Magic type(s): Heavy use of Druids, some bards and wizards
Technology: Organic fortifications/roads, Lycanthropes, Animal Allies, Bronze, Unusual Ships, Barbarians 
Military - Druidic small units, Beastmen, Light Infantry, and incredible scouts

What we need is a consensus on who gets chariots, I would have posited that the Cressians would only develop them in response to the Jinn and that the Jinn would use them primarily to get infantry and magic users up to the front line, but not in their own formations or with Centaurs pulling them.  

Are we assuming that all of these cultures have the wheel?  Recall that it never developed in North America.  The Jinn or Stempans make sense to me as the most advanced wheel cultures, though the Cressians strike me as easily able to adapt it to their culture.

Anyone have any further ideas on the Ausel?  This would be a good time to introduce some of the heretofore ignored classes such as rogues, Paladins, and Monks.  Paladins as a means to give them some divine magic and an order dedicated to protecting the mages and giving the people the personal attention that the mages have no time for.  Monks as a means of training really expert marines and mariners.  No armor, great tumbling, high reflex saves, and close in weapons make a lot of sense for a culture devoted to naval and raiding warfare accompanied with a lot of magic.  Not too mention that the lawful monkish alignment will make them excellent servants for the runic overlords.  Rogues would also make excellent sailors and warriors for a magic heavy culture with an emphasis on working together to bring an enemy down.

Any of those possibilities gives us our second straight up fantasy culture as well as the possibility of combining Junk sails with Longship hulls.  Mmmmmm, naval superiority......

Even if the Ausel aren't using Junk sails then someone should be.  Those things are wicked.  Not too mention Catamaran hulls.  These is fantasy we got the whole of primitive naval technology to pick and choose from.


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## s/LaSH (Feb 26, 2003)

I'd support the idea of Cresia and the Ta'jinn meeting through Stempa, just so long as Stempa didn't get too munched in the process (which is fairly unlikely, all things considered).

Whether the Cresians have chariots is really dependant on how quickly they expanded to their current borders. If they met with considerable resistance from locals, then they probably required plains-capable vehicles to win out. If, on the other hand, their territory is colonial in nature, then the road network prompted the development of carts and little else - chariots would be created later. And the jinn, of course, wouldn't have them at all at first - they've never really needed wagons or wheels, being equine-oriented nomads. The Stempa, I think, would have the wheel - their country has decent mathematics, and they've known the Cresians for a while anyway. Auselen mages probably developed the wheel years ago, but who knows if they're using it? They might be relying on unseen servants or charmed ogres to move heavy objects around.

I'm intrigued by the idea of monks serving the Auselen mage-lords. It's really the non-gifted person's approach to mystic power - rather than channeling the forces of the Universe, you channel yourself towards perfection. I can see this catching on big-time. Paladins? I'm not so sure; the Auselen exiles were rather disillusioned with religion, if I recall correctly, and set themselves up as the highest beings in their heirachy. If there is any religion on Ausel, it's probably philisophical or cultish in nature, and not likely to involve being nice to people.

(And monks make perfect raiders - they're so fast, and can jump off cliffs to evade pursuit!)

If Junk sails are developed, then the Auselen will be the ones to do it. They'll probably have catamarans too, good for ocean journeys. Now those ships will look cool...
(Cresians might have a few ocean-bound catamarans, but they don't need awesome sails with cetacean power, and catamarans are somewhat unsuited to the upper reaches of the river channel.)

GladiusNP: My signals are fairly crossed here (but the development of the cities is excellent). Let me try to ASCII a map of Cresia/Stempa:

www|........Stempa                   
www|........................
www|............./................
www|- - - - -/- - - - - -   ^         
www|......._/................^
www|...._/..................^............Ta'Jinn
wJw|_/....Cresia........^
www|..........................^
www|__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __
wwwwwwwwwwwwwww
www __ __ __ __www
www|....Ausel......|www
www|__ __ __ __|www

The river is marked as a line from the Cresian coast going into Stempa... the rest should be fairly self-explanatory (for ASCII).

Does this meet with everyone's expectations?


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Feb 26, 2003)

The one problem I have with Monks is that they are attribute based.  Let's say the Auselan populace is made of rogues and monks with monks taking the elite combat oriented roles and rogues making up the rest of the non-NPC classed populace.  That way they will have an easy time making use of the minor magical items that get passed their way.

That's a society that's about 2/3s tumble.  We could spin them all Minoan and give them wild acrobatic atheltic events involving specially trained creatures, and the magocracy could be primarily a matriarchy, in which each woman has many husbands to captain her many ships.  

The lone cleric class can be in charge of preserving the memory of their history and working out the magical lineages.  The society as a whole distrusts divine magic in positions of power however, so they are strictly limited to religious, educational, and medical functions.  They are never allowed to participate in combat or bear weapons unless they take certain very strict oaths.  This culture lead to the development of monkish skills so that the priests could defend themselves against anti-clerical uprisings.  Eventually, these skills became a vocation in their own right, though many of the best schools are lead by clerics who safeguard the theory of the teachings.

Magically they might very well develop runes, since all property ownership is ultimately limited to wizards and runes are a very functional way of displaying that to the commoners and the other members of the aristocracy.

These monks aren't going to be your typical monks, however, bred to a life of fierce service on the sea and the bitter religion of the exiles, I picture them as covered in runic scars and tatoos and sporting wild haircuts and masks with which to intimidate their enemies.  Very flamboyant and at the same time disciplined in battle and life.


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## Tonguez (Feb 27, 2003)

Dr. Strangemonkey said:
			
		

> *That's a society that's about 2/3s tumble.  We could spin them all Minoan and give them wild acrobatic atheltic events involving specially trained creatures, and the magocracy could be primarily a matriarchy, in which each woman has many husbands to captain her many ships.  . *




[Smug] See I told ya Minos was the way to go![/smug]
And I love the idea of 'Auselen Monk-Acrobats' who practice bull-vaulting and are expert seamen.

Also catamarans (double-hulls) are already used as the Cressian dolphin-ships. That the Auselen adopt this and develop sails is also a wonderful idea.

As to Wheels - Cressia again is the most likely to develop them. 
Ausel is an island and wheels are of less use on islands, Stempa is mountains and again wheels might be restrictive (depending on just how steep and rugged the mountains are)
The Ta'jinn will not use them because they reduce the mobility and manouverability of their mounts. And imho Centaur drawn chariots are right out since not only will being hitched to a chariot slow them down, it will also make them vunerable (since they can't use dodge etc without overturning the chariot and hurting themselves and everyone on board) plus we're talking about proud noble fierce warrior centaurs aren't we? not donkeys-slaves to be used as beast of burden!.

But enough I think we are ready for a fight (ps I'd suggest we leave the monks/rogues etc out for the first conflict and introduce them as the scenario progresses (ie keep a few aces up your sleeves)

without further ado



> Stempa – Mountain based city-states
> Politics: Divisive religions control
> Magic type(s): Moderate use of Clerics (multiple domains)
> Technology: Heavy Armor, Iron, Mining, Ogres, Spies
> ...




Fighters take your corners - FIGHT


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## Morgenstern (Feb 27, 2003)

Is it wrong that I read this thread and keep thinking how much fun it would be to write up the prestige classes fo this setting ...?


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Feb 27, 2003)

I don't think so.  We have developed a lot of interesting setting ideas in this thought game.

We need someone to write up what the Cressian force would consist of.  

I'm pretty certain that the initial encounter between the Ta'jinn and the Cressians would go to the Cressians.  Let's say the Stempan conflict has left a village guarding an important supply line largely undefended.   The village itself has very few fortifications.   Basically a tower from which to watch the fields, some fences around homes, a few basements, and secret paths out of the town and into the hills.  The Cressians and Ta'jinn have independently scouted the village and decided that a small force should secure the place and use it to watch and harrass supply shipments.  The Ta'jinn arrive first with a force of three groups, two centaur light cavalry, a group of medium infantry, and their staff.  Officers and staff are standard but for a signal corps that sends up smoke signals now and again to communicate with griffin scouts who fly overhead, and a very small group of ten of their better scouts who watch the route in sets of two over all hours.  There is a cleric and two low level wizards in the group.  They use the medium infantry to reinforce the town's meager fortifications, begin watching the route, and keep a group of centaurs alert and on patrol throughout the day and another group at camp.  Both are prepared to respond to reports of vulnerable caravans and are very familiar with all the routes through the local terrain that they are capable of using.


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## s/LaSH (Feb 27, 2003)

The Cresians learn of the captured village through their extensive animal contacts. However, the animals aren't too clear on the existance of the centaurs - the Cresians come away thinking that they're dealing with cavalry. While not unheard of, they've rarely faced cavalry, and so they overprepare a little. Which is good, because animal control spells won't work on Centaurs.

I'm assuming that the 'groups' we're talking about are 50-man subdivisions of the two groups in each Wing of a Tamarch. Thus there are 100 centaurs and 50 medium infantry, including 10 staff, with another 5 signallers and the 10 elite scouts for a total of 165 personnel.

While the Stempan city-states make macho noises at each other on the main battlefield, a force of wilderness-enhanced Cresian troops move through the hills to the village. The group consists of 100 light skirmishers, 10 of whom are Delta shapeshifters; 100 light archers; and 10 druids, each with one or two predator beasts in tow (lions and bears, but no tigers) for defense. Their battle plan is to draw out the enemy with fast-moving scouts, bring them to visual range of the druids waiting up the valley, and then charm their animals to throw their riders (a tactic that has worked before, albeit not against Ta'jinn). The horses get lost, the riders get entangled and peppered with arrows, and if the druids get threatened the skirmishers move into position the moment the enemy comes into sight.

Once the cavalry is drawn off and defeated, the Cresians plan to send their own troops in on the horses, and strike the village's defences from within, distracting the defenders so the remaining skirmishers can enter. The infiltration force is to be composed of half the druids and all the Deltas, plus a few of the stronger skirmishers; the Deltas are to lead the attack from within, and are sort of the Cresian's secret weapon against these outlanders.

In practice, the Cresians arrive late (they required reinforcements to overmatch the Ta'jinn occupation force), around dusk. They set up in the valley and send out their troops, knowing that even if something goes wrong, their experienced Deltas and druids can shift during the night and attack under cover of darkness in animal form. Unfortunately for them, centaurs also have darkvision...

What happens next?


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## ajanders (Feb 28, 2003)

*Cresians and Ta'jinn, Round 1*

Well, I suspect the light archer types are going to die.
As they lose visibility, they lose the ability to shoot.  The centaurs also find their range degrades, but they can still manage to strike at a distance up to 30 feet, so they effectively outrange the Cresian light archers.
If they get tired of shooting them down, they can just charge and trample them: lightly armed archery troops have no chance against cavalry unless they run and hide.  When the cavalry has darkvision, they can't even hide.
(Ordinarily the Cresian druids would start altering the terrain with plant growth or entangle spells to give them a terrain advantage, but no light means they can't see to set those up either.)
The light skirmishers will come in on the flank to try and break up the attack, but will find centaurs don't panic as easily as horses and turn much more quickly.  The skirmishers will be stopped dead, be overmatched, and then forced to retreat or die.  If any of them survive, it'll be because the centaurs preferred to finish the archers off first.

The Cresian's best chance will be to put their elite infiltration unit into play behind the centaurs immediately and hope they cause enough havoc to make the centaurs return to the rear to secure their comrades.  They can probably do this pretty effectively.  The medium infantry will handle the skirmishers pretty well, but the first Ta'jinn to meet a Delta will die before he has a chance to run.
History records his last words as "He doesn't look so tou-AAAHHHGgh."
The rest of the infantry will likely call for reinforcements, unwilling to see if the wolf demon in the Cresian forces has any friends or not on their own hook.

Net results: both Cresians and Ta'jinn are shaken by what the other side has working for them: the Ta'jinn see a wolf-demon behind every Cresian and the Cresians see the Ta'jinn as vile perversions of nature.
The Cresians try to withdraw and the Ta'jinn are probably professional/cautious enough to hold their position rather than chase after them, superior speed and night vision or not.

As dawn breaks, the Cresians have learned not to try mass night attacks against the Ta'jinn.  The Ta'jinn infantry have learned not to fight the Cresians infantry at all: that's a good way to get a nasty surprise.  Let the centaurs handle it or get odds of five or six to one.


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Feb 28, 2003)

ahh, but the Cressians have the lion's share of strategic advantages:

After the battle the Cressians dissolve into the rough country that surrounds the town, regroup someplace cavalry is unlikely to follow, and send for reinforcements from the Cressian command thinking that these abominations are some sort of otherworldly threat that their godly forces would be better equipped to deal with than the Stempans.

The Ta'jinn are bit concerned about the bizarre casualties among their infantry, but had such an easy time overall and saw so little of the Cressian's magical prowress that they decide the Cressians were simply a bizarre group of bandits.  They report the incident to the Griffin scout in general terms, replace thier losses, and set up a more vigorous system of patrolling, particularly at night.  They do decide to be very cautious about their raids.  Even using some of the captured Cressian weaponry to provide 'evidence' that 'normal' bandits are conducting the raids.  This confuses the Stempan allies of the Cressians to no end, but more on that later.

After a week of learning the Ta'jinn routine and waiting for reinforcements the Cressians attack again.  Their expertise at guerrilla warfare enables them to move their men into a position close to the village without detection.  Their time watching the Ta'jinn has given them some idea of their alliance with a griffin, though they have no idea of its capabilities.  This time their force consists of 50 light archers, 50 light skirmishers, and 100 light spearmen as well as their prior complement of druids and deltas (is their any way we could come up with a more 'Cressian' term for these guys?).  

They carefully set an ambush for the night patrol group of Centaurs using the 50 skirmishers two druids and their animals.  The ambush primarily works to lead the patrol on a merry chase away from the fortress and into traps laid by the druid.

At dawn, the main Cressian force attacks the fortifications.  The infiltration force initiates the attack by first capturing the tower, causing as much chaos as possible within the camp, and using their spells to disable the gates in the Ta'jinn fortification.  Simultaneously, small groups of archers attack from hastily created brush covers that surround the camp.   A senior druid then uses his spells and bundles prepared by the men to destroy the eastern barricades through which the main force of spearmen pours into the camp.  A group of reserve archers takes up positions inside some of the closer houses and pours fire into the Ta'jinn ranks as the deltas work to ravage some of the still sleeping infantry and rejoin the ranks of the spearmen.  The centaurs find their ranks dwindling rapidly and the range and mobility advantages greatly decreased by the sunlight in their eyes, the close quarters, the disciplined tactics of spearmen taking advantage of cover, and spellfire from the tower.  The Cressians work to occupy as many of the houses as possible as quickly as possible.  Those few that are succesfully occupied by the Ta'jinn infantry, who had been the focus of the initial attack, are ravaged by deltas backed up by spearmen.  

Eventually the Ta'jinn regroup enough to escape the town where they rendevous with the night patrol which had been returning with the coming of dawn and the dispersal of the skirmishers.  Realzing that they face an organized enemy and have lost many of their supplies and men, they decide to retreat, but not before saving face.  The night patrol stages a quick raid on the town and sets fire to the fields and as many of the buildings as they can reach with long range fire, and then rides away.  

In the Ta'jinn culture this is simply a normal parting shot, though one that recognizes the dishonour of their enemy.  To the Cressians it is the final proof that they faced an enemy more demonic than any they had seen since the Jongan invasions.  The fires in the town are fairly easily contained given the druidic presence, and the men are encouraged by their overall victory but absolutely certain that the enemy is evil incarnate.  The presence of human allies and magical servitors simply proves their insidious nature.  The Cressians destroy the town in fury, erect a small monument to their victory, and retreat to camps they have created in the hills in order to fulfill their original mission.  The druids decide that the orders and high church must determine a plan to use in case these demons are symptoms of a larger threat.

The Ta'jinn compare notes on the battle and decide that their shapeshifting, nature spell wielding, animal lead, and unorthodox opponents were far more than normal bandits and most likely in league with demons.  Likely they did not know that the Ta'jinn were arrayed against them in the first battle, and thus saved their demonic powers and uncanny tactics for when they saw that they faced as worthy an opponent as the demon-slaying Ta'jinn.  The decide to investigate the matter and determine a plan for how best to counter or destroy these new enemies.


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## Tonguez (Mar 1, 2003)

Erlik stamped his hooves impatiently as he waited in the enclosure outside the Khans tent.

"How long does it take to decide" he grumbled to his companion Baladur "my report was clear enough wasn't it?"

"Patience" Baladur advised the younger Ta'jinn warrior "the Khan and his advisors need time to consider your words - especially if those who attacked were aided by demons"
"Oh they were demons" Erlik grimaced at the memory "terrible beasts with great fangs and claws, and magic that twisted the very earth against us - they are vile and must be destroyed!"

**********Meanwhile far to the south in Cressia*************

"They were abominations Holy Mother" Amres explained to the High Priestess "no doubt the product of meddling with the natural order. Their lower bodies were like horses, but the heads had been removed and in their place grew the head and torso of a man. We were not ready for that horror when we first encountered them but we beleive that with the blessing of the Blessed Mother we can go forth and exterminate them all."

"Do not be so keen to destroy" the High Priestess replied calmly "first we must learn more about them - their nature and their origin, only then will we confront them"


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## s/LaSH (Mar 2, 2003)

Further aftermath of the battle:

The Ta'jinn and Cresians both withdraw the lion's share of their support from the front lines of the Stempan conflict. (They don't want to fight demons just yet.) The Stempans on either side are demoralised by the retreat of their allies and retreat to fortified positions. The war winds down... for now.

If people don't like Delta, what about Detanes (sing. Detane)? It sounds a little more 'cresian' to me, at least. Anyway, they'll be the primary long-range scouts of the Cresians, because in animal form they're almost invulnerable and very inconspicuous. Detanic scouts penetrate to the Western edges of Stempa, following the Ta'jinn supply trains, and report that there are seemingly endless numbers of these equine abominations, alongside soldiers and cavalry dressing in unusual fashion, stranger than even Stempan garb. The logical conclusion is that they are an enemy from beyond Stempa, probably in large numbers.

The course of action advised is to engage in a flanking strike to cut their lines of supply. Cresia has a narrow corridor between the Stempan hills and the mountains that separate Cresia from the Ta'jinn in the first place; they prepare the bulk of their forces to attack and destroy the Ta'jinn passing across the moors, and hope to encircle and destroy their armies already in Stempa in this fashion.

At first, only supply convoys are to be attacked, during the day. Deltanes sneak up and attack in hybrid form, disrupting any defenders. When the defenders are in retreat or melee, Cresian archers and druids break cover and begin bombardment; nobody retreats through Entanglement, especially not centaurs, and Deltanes don't take damage from arrows. If the Cresian force has enough casters, they also charm the Ta'jinn pack/wagon animals and cause trouble like that. Most of the attack is a single intense archery bombardment; the Cresians are all trained in the use of bows (easily made with wood shaping druids), and can defend themselves if they find themselves facing a centaur charge.

At least, that's the plan.

The Ta'jinn, meanwhile, send out their griffin scouts at high altitude. They don't spot supply lines, which puzzles them (Cresians can easily live off the land with magical support), but they do see a lush and fertile land to the South, with sprawling cities and teeming waterways. A little investigation reveals that these people have large temples devoted to canines, which confirms their suspicions: Cresia is a land ruled by demons, just as the River of Heaven once was. The Khan of the Ta'jinn makes an executive decision: The Stempan war is not as potentially profitable as conquering Cresia (even if they take a few city-states as payment, Cresia is much richer). He justifies it by proclaiming this a holy war of liberation, and sends a few elite wings from his personal Tamarch to oversee the invasion. Ta'jinn forces begin to move South from Stempa, ironically parallelling the northern advance of the Cresian attack, only a hundred miles to the West.

In the interim, the Ta'jinn begin to be plagued by wolf-demons on the nights of the full moon. These creatures are mindless but still fearsome opponents, and nobody knows where they came from or where they go after the full moon. This simply hardens their resolve.

(Does anyone know whether monstrous humanoids such as Centaurs can be afflicted with lycanthropy? The MM, under 'Curse of Lycanthropy', says any humanoid creature can be affected. I think it would be cool if we ruled that centaurs, too, can be affected, but I'm not certain.)


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## ajanders (Mar 2, 2003)

*New Wars, New Names*

I've always rather liked the term "Dog Warriors" for the Cresian shapechangers, myself.  It's not perhaps original, but it describes what they are.
In further news, my brain has snapped at the visual of a half-man, half-wolf, half-horse creature.  Unless someone wants to stat out a new aberration for the thread, I vote centaurs should remain immune to lycanthropy.  It seems especially apt in this case as the Dog Warriors are not diseased, but blessed with the favor of the Dog Goddess, who is obviously not handing out any favors to the Taji'in.
If lycanthropy can be transmitted to centaurs, then the Taji'in are going to be in a world of hurt: that's effectively magical germ warfare.  Lycanthropy is very difficult to cure if you don't have access to some powerful clerics, which the Taji'in really don't.  It's even difficult to detect without magical means, leaving them no real way to start treating the disease.

The Cresian raids on supply convoys don't go nearly as well as expected: the Taji'in archers are more skilled than the Cresians, though the Cresian longbow is more powerful than the Taji'in shortbow.  As the archery duel dwindles down to much more of a stalemate than either side is very happy with, the Taji'in adapt a convoy system, consolidating their caravans into longer trains and using their griffins as aerial reconnassiance units.  The Cresians can stay out of sight, but not while setting up a massed archery ambush.
Finally the senior Cresian druid  throws up his hands and asks the Dog Mother for advice.  The supply road cuts through the mountains and likely winds along the side of them.  If he loads up on Transmute Rock to Mud spells, he can likely wipe the whole road off the side of the cliff in about a week.  Is this too much of a disruption of nature?
Meanwhile, the Taji'in wing has entered Cresia and is having their own problems.  The Cresian rose hedges have grown thick and strong since the days of the Jongans: what repels formations of armed infantry holds back a centaur cavalry charge pretty well too, and the other defenses meant to handle a large formation of infantry prove equally effective against a dispersed force of cavalry.  Even massed cavalry charges fail to pierce the ancient hedges.
Taji'in archery serves to bottle the Cresians up behind their fortress walls, but the Taji'in find they only control the ground under their feet.  If the ground has plants growing out of it, they might not even do that well.
The Taji'in do discover that fire arrows generously applied can do real damage to the Cresians, but the Taji'in general sees a small problem.  He sends his own message back to the Khan.
"We burn, than we pillage.  This way doesn't work well.  The reverse order doesn't work at all.  Are you sure this is turning out to be profitable?"


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Mar 2, 2003)

At this point, with two invasion forces in the works, I would love it if someone would throw together a 10,000 man Cressian force or at least a more general system of Cressian military organization.

I noticed that in my last pose, I basically assumed that the Cressians organize themselves in a similar manner to the Ta'jinn and that really makes no sense except that I wrote up the Ta'jinn force of 10,000.  When I really think the Cressians would have their own standardized system since they have such militia forces and four unique professional organizations.

If I do it, I'm afraid it will just look like an infantry version of the Mongol system I used to build up the Ta'jinn.  The organization would have to account for the four septs, aha a better term, that dominate Cressian professional organization and enable the Cressians to make use of their tradition of extreme tactical flexibility, but otherwise I think things are pretty open.  I don't even know what historical organization would make a good parellel.

If anyone has any good knowledge of light infantry organizational practices please share, and I love both the suggested terms for the lycanthropes.


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## Tuerny (Mar 2, 2003)

Hey, I just want to say this is a truly superb thread and I would have loved to get involved if I had been aware of it earlier. As it is I am going to just lurk and enjoy it. 

Good show!


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## Tonguez (Mar 2, 2003)

heavy infantry >defeats> heavy cavalry 
(eg Spear Walls/Pikes vs Cavalry Charge) 
heavy cavalry >defeats> light infantry 
 (eg Charge and Speed)
light infantry >defeats> light cavalry
(eg range and cover)
light cavalry >defeats> both heavy infantry and heavy cavalry (Skirmish, Harassment eg Mongols)


The relative prosperity and peace that Cressia has had for many years means that it does not have a large standing army.  However the history of past invasions does mean that each village maintains a militia of warriors who may be conscripted by members of the Warrior and/or Wanderers Sept when required. The Four Septs are of course nominally part of the Church Hierarchy reporting to a Druid-Overseer, although each is given a degree of autonomy within its own function.

The Village Militia make up 50% of the Cressian Forces during wartime and comprise a mixture of Infantry units using a variety of slings, bows, javelins, spears, axes and swords. Spears predominate amongst the heavy infantry units and are used primarily as defensive formations, providing cover and breaking enemy ranks and allowing the skirmish archers to counterattack. Mobility is encouraged Cressian warfare and running is the national sport

The Warrior  and/or Wanderer Sept are highly specialized forces who make up the backbone of the Cressian Military together the comprise approximately 35% of the Cressian Forces. 
The Warrior Sept is an Elite Order made up primarily of Barbarians and Dog Warriors. They serve as bodyguards to the High-Priestess and have a ‘policing’ role in society, they are responsible for training the Militia. 
The Warrior Sept often act as heavy infantry (wielding spears and axes to great effect) however they also have the speed and mobility of light infantry and this is their great advantage. 

The Wanderers Sept is not as structured as the Warrior Sept, due in no small part to the diverse nature of its membership which includes Couriers (Slingers and Archers who function as Light Infantry), Naval Forces (Marines & Scurvy Sea Dogs), Deltane-Rangers*, and a few Animal Allies. The Wanderers Sept are masters of the road and field able to operate in a variety of terrain. Most scouts and infiltration units are derived from the Wanderers.

The Cressians are experts at guerrilla warfare using terrain to their best advantage. They will harass enemy troops, setting ambushes and targeting enemy supply lines, as well as using infiltration units to attack enemy camps from within. This is of course were the Druids are indispensable as it is they who are able to alter the terrain to even better exploit the Cressian advantages. 
If Cressians are ever caught on open ground they are able to call on the Barbarians and Dog Warriors of the Warrior Sept to provide defense in the form of spear walls,  whilst the archers fire from behind the vanguard line and druids and bards (from the Scribes Sept) use their spells to both to enhance the Cressian troops and target the enemy.
Most Cressian Diplomats  are also pulled from the Scribes Sept and some maybe Bards

*Deltane Ranger – a Beastman PrC (alt.Ranger)  it was mentioned earlier that some Dog Warriors might be sent out to the borders and taught to live off the lands? This is the result


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Mar 2, 2003)

Sweet, I was thinking that given their need for flexibility, transference of support units between militia companies, and need to train people in small units the Cressians would go for a highly divisible number for their base groupings.  

So that the most basic Cressian unit consists of 15 fighting members, though some rare troop types will not commit the entire formation to battle so they may fight in units of 10, called a pack.  This is, except in the cases of Deltane border troops, an organizational unit.  The smallest garrison and marching unit will consist of no less than four of these groups, a kennel, and the smallest fighting unit will consist of 8, one or two of which will be packs from a sept, called a hunt.  Unless otherwise ordered the senior pack will be in command of any formation, with sept packs frequently being granted defacto seniority. Hunts are generally the largest normal formations.  Druids or sept leaders with several hunts at their command are called huntsmen and their commanders are Huntsmasters, though they most often prefer their ecclesiastical titles.  Seniority is determined through elaborate protocols, but once known is largely unquestionable.

The small units take advantage of the fact that each village militia will probably have units of a variety of different experiences as they are likely to train generationally as well as the time and inclination to train men in small groups as opposed to all at once.  The manner in which the small units are then formed into larger formations allows the high command to integrate elite sept units into formations of militia without having to insert them artificially.  

It also means that the Cressians can tailor their formations to specific need.  So that while the Ta'jinn are pretty much stuck with finding the right mix of troops in a wing and then subdividing it, the Cressians can decide that a particular situation requires a hunt made up of a mix of archers and heavy infantry with druid support and either use a mixture of kennels or just build it from the ground up.

Plus it continues the Babylonian theme by making 60 their basic number.

Love the basic composition Tonguez.  Thanks.


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## s/LaSH (Mar 2, 2003)

OK, so the Ta'jinn have reinforced their supply trains, and are probably routing them through their Stempan allies. But they aren't making inroads on Cresia. Meanwhile, the Cresians (while their central authority may advise a more peacable approach) are getting worked up over these abominations on their soil, and are definitely going to want to wipe them out. If their priests say otherwise, they'll have an uprising on their hands.

The Ta'jinn are relatively secure in their supply trains. The Cresians are relatively secure on their home ground. How can this change?

First, the Cresians enjoyed limited success in their initial raids on supply convoys. The basic tactic - a few shock troops in the form of Deltanes, then a missile bombardment - worked moderately well, but darkvision and superior mobility on the centaurs' part defeated that tactic. The shock assault needs work. Use of mist stops either side using arrows... unless the archers on one side are above the mist.

A common Cresian defensive tactic is adopted. Their cities are surrounded by isolated trees or posts as rangefinders; the deltanes can navigate through a mist perimeter, and send out cries whenever they encounter enemy troops. A concentrated archery barrage that cannot harm the deltane lands on that area. The archers themselves are in towers, trees and ramparts above the mist. Those packs of archers that are more effective (that is, can judge distance and direction by sound alone) are sent to the front lines, ten packs of archers to a pack of deltanes and another pack of druids; this small division of 120 warriors is fairly mobile, fairly stealthy, and fairly effective in combat. The basic tactic: shock the enemy with pseudo-invulnerable deltanes; mist the battlefield; move your archers around, bombarding the areas where deltanes set up their cries. Some divisions also have bards, who can throw out Silence and Blindness/Deafness at level 3 to disrupt enemy use of sound in the mist, and generally boost combat effectiveness.

Meanwhile, the Ta'jinn have caught a few of their human soldiers turning into werewolves. Through sheer brute force they've managed to take one or two prisoner (six centaurs hanging off you is enough to stop even a werewolf running away), and after failing to cure them by conventional means they've discovered that you can, in fact, kill them, albeit with great difficulty. Fire and magical energy both kill lycanthropes just as easily as they kill normal soldiers. In fact, a lycanthrope held to the ground can be hit with a coup-de-grace attack that has a good chance of killing it. This technique is disseminated to all troops. (Note that actually getting hold of a lycanthrope is harder than you'd think, and human troops run the risk of infection in the process. This, of course, means that centaurs get to do it - and become hailed as holy champions for it. Logically, some decades down the path, we'll start seeing centaur paladins.)

But this doesn't really help them assault Cresian fortresses. The only tactic that might work is death from above - a spell bombardment from a griffin wing. Loath to use their precious steeds in this way, one assault is finally approved... what is the result?

PS: Yo, Tuerny, if you feel you've got something to contribute, go right ahead. It'll only require a couple hours of reading our previous battle records, taking notes, etc etc. and fresh perspectives are always appreciated. Right folks?


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## dglass (Mar 3, 2003)

I was wondering where magic items fit into all this?  Is it too soon for them to develop?  

Today at work I was thinking about how a small group using hit-and-fade tactics could do a lot of damage if they all had at least one level of wizard or sorcerer.  A mass of archers is scary but a mass of people with magic missile wands is downright sick.  These people all wear the same slate grey uniforms with no insignia or rank.  Soldiers are grouped togather so that they are all pretty much the same height and have identical haircuts.  Unless some kind of power component could be found to reduce the XP cost there will never be a way to supply an army with magic items.  But every single soldier carries what looks like a wand.  Its just the officers have ones that work.  Everyone else has to make due with scrolls.  They would stick to rough terrain which would be home ground.  The point is to make anyone who invades thier territory think:
a) that there are more of them then there actually are
b) that they can rain down magical death all day long without running out of spells like other casters
c) they can appear and disappear without warning ((if they have invented Invisibility this may in fact be true))
I had envisioned someplace in the mountains possibly near a volcano.  The geologic activity creates planes of broken rock, boulders, and ravines.  The home base would probably a hidden valley.


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## s/LaSH (Mar 4, 2003)

dglass said:
			
		

> *I was wondering where magic items fit into all this?  Is it too soon for them to develop?
> 
> Today at work I was thinking about how a small group using hit-and-fade tactics could do a lot of damage if they all had at least one level of wizard or sorcerer.  A mass of archers is scary but a mass of people with magic missile wands is downright sick.  These people all wear the same slate grey uniforms with no insignia or rank.  Soldiers are grouped togather so that they are all pretty much the same height and have identical haircuts.  Unless some kind of power component could be found to reduce the XP cost there will never be a way to supply an army with magic items.  But every single soldier carries what looks like a wand.  Its just the officers have ones that work.  Everyone else has to make due with scrolls.  They would stick to rough terrain which would be home ground.  The point is to make anyone who invades thier territory think:
> a) that there are more of them then there actually are
> ...




A valid point. I'd surmise that magic items would be fairly uncommon at this stage, because magic is, while not in its infancy, still only having to shave a couple of times a week. Under the scenario level restrictions, a few casters could be expected to have picked up the ability to craft wondrous items, scrolls, and potions (and I believe scrolls were developed by Jongans a few centuries before, so the Cresians at least have that technology); the more powerful casters might be able to craft wands and magical weaponry/armour; virtually nobody would be capable of making rods, let alone staffs.

Considering the magical prowess of the various nations, it seems that Cresia would probably be the leader in low-level utility stuff, and every druid and priest (and maybe the bards) would carry a few useful scrolls for use in emergencies. Potions would be fairly well-known to Cresians, too, although not in vast numbers. Additional items would be related to agriculture, like magic plows or harnesses for dolphins, and generally low-powered.

Stempa, on the other hand, doesn't really have many casters compared to the other nations. Their priests would probably have a few items hanging around, but because Stempans have to be strong, few items are ever crafted (the XP drain issue).

The Ta'jinn have a few casters (the godsblood), who probably spend most of their feats on griffin riding. I could imagine a few spending their time making weapons, but such weapons would be the stuff of legend and only seen in the hands of maybe a dozen people per Tamarch, probably leaders. And the weapons wouldn't exceed +2 or +3 in total.

The Auselen, on the other hand, are ruled by sorcerers and have a lot of experimenters running around. With their military largely composed of casters, monks and rogues, perhaps half their military forces can use activated magic items. If anyone's going to have magic items, it's these guys. I can actually imagine them dressing their soldiers all the same (or at least in their house colours), and trying something like this.

In general, if anyone's going to have magic items, chances are good that they're Auselen in origin and cost them dearly. The Cresians have a slight advantage in their scroll and potion base, but that's probably about it...

...for now.


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Mar 4, 2003)

I don't know how effective the range finding tactic is against any sort of serious force.  Arrows are only so effective against most armors until you get to the very high end of development.  I have no idea what the effectiveness of firing blind with arrows is, I don't know how much actual impact it would have.  On the other hand, taking fire while surrounded by fog and fighting a lycanthrope has to be really demoralizing.  

An earlier post mentioned the Cressians using longbows, but I always saw them as a more javelin and spear oriented culture.  Not to denigrate their access to competent archers when they need them.  I just don't know where they would pick up longbows.

Poisoned arrows on the other hand...

So where we at in the war?  Are the Cressians and the Ta'jinn still primarily skirmishing along the edges of conflicts in Stempa as they both contemplate invasion?

Anyone want to guess what the Stempan clerics think of all this?  Surely some of the neutral cities are begining to contemplate which way they should fall, and the allied cities are reconsidering their situation as more and more allied troops enter the conflict and then ignore their interests.  

Surely both sides are looking at the Stempan heavy armor formations and considering how they might be of use?

I see the initial conflict breaking down into zones and strategic questions really quickly.  

The Ta'jinn with the superior speed and archery are going to gain rapid superiority on any open ground.

The Cressians with the superemely flexible formations and superior light infantry are going to dominate any rough or forested terrain.

Both sides are going to have their advantages reinforced by their rapid fortification abilities and professional corps of officers.  The Cressian are eventually going to suffer when they have to stop relying on the reserves of semi-professional regular soldiers that the belong to the orders and heirarchy and have to start drawing from their militia, but they have a huge pool to draw on and holy fervor in their favor.

So both sides are going to have an environment in which to play around and experiment with new tactics in until either the invasions begin or the Stempans start to influence the conflict. 

I think the new Cressian foritification and blindfire tactics are a perfect example of the sort of things that are going to develop in the Stempa conflict.

The Ta'jinn are likely going to start honing their expertise at fire tactics and developing crusader formations.  Their medium infantry are going to gain greater prestige in the formations as the Ta'jinn begin shifting them to the outside of their formations in any terrain in which an ambush is possible.   The Centaurs have superior range on the Cressians and can fire from the inside of the formations benefitting from the heavier shields and closer formations of the infantry.  The infantry also serve to slow down deltanes so that the centaurs can then reinforce them without getting a Deltane on their backs or disrupting their ranks, absorb spells, and give the Centaurs time to determine where a counterattack should go.

Both sides are going to get a lot better at night attacks, but the Ta'jinn in particular.   Ta'jinn medium infantry are going to become very adept at wielding burning weapons come the full moon.

In terms of increasing magic sophisitication, how long do you think it takes for the Ta'jinn to start casting elarged detect magic spells and targeting buffed druids and deltanes?

I think this war is going to get nastier rather than nicer thanks to the political limitations and small force sizes.


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## dglass (Mar 4, 2003)

Between this thread and playing Age of Mythology I must say I'm inspired.  I was pondering what each army might use as a signature weapon.

I think it would be cooler if the Cressians used spear throwers.  The reason spear throwers were replaced by bows is that bows make better hunting weapons.  However, some peoples continued to use spear throwers after bows were being used elsewhere in the world.  Aztec warrior greeted (and pierced the armor of) the Spanish conquistadors with the atlatl.  The Australian aborigines woomera was a multi-purpose tool used as a weapon, digging stick, fire stick, handle for a stone chisel blade, and a percussion instrument.  The Intuit had a similar device but used it for spear fishing.

I would give the Auselen the khopesh.  An Egyptian weapon sometimes called a sickle-sword.  For a ranged weapon how about the longbow?

For the Ta'jinn I wonder if you could use a glaive like a lance or would the shaft break?  Centaur charge attacks are deadly.

Composite bows are not really that difficult an invention and an Iron Age culture such as the Stempan should have them already.  A weapon that might be developed during the war is the crossbow.  Invented by the Chinese these are much more scary weapon then they are portrayed in the PHB.  They are as powerful as composite bows but less expensive.  Really good archers take years to develop the muscles and stamina. When other armies pick up on the crossbow the Stempan might still have another card to play.  The Chinese also invented the repeating crossbow.


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Mar 5, 2003)

I like the idea of atlatls for Cressians.  Really makes a lot more sense to me as a general weapon given the extreme foliage of their environment and emphasis on spears as a weapon.

I think nearly all the cultures should have access to light bows, but I have to say that I only approve of the Ta'jinn having composite bows.   Really good ones are extremely difficult to make so I can see Stempan nobility using them, but the Ta'jinn are going to be the only culture with both the wealth and the interest to outfit their whole force with them.  Long bows are such a huge weapon advantage and require so much training that I could only see them as very culture defining and thus needing to be put in the big lists.

Someone should definitely be using Khopeshes, but they seem like very heavy and expensive weapons for a sea based culture.  Maybe they are a symbol of office and only bodyguards and officers may use them.

Atlatls are a perfect idea for the Cressians.

Hmm, has anyone been able to come up with a scenario by which any of these cultures could discover a lycanthrope's vulnerability to silver?

I was also thinking that lycanthropic germ warfare is going to get nasty super fast.  Were I the Ta'jinn I would kick any potentially infected people out of my camp right out, or execute them.  All of which leads to the same affect of lots of infected and uncontrolled lycanthropes running around the Stempan countryside every full moon so that the infection is going to spread throughout the civilian population.  In a few decades Stempa's going to look a lot less like Greece and a lot more like Transylvania.


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## Morgenstern (Mar 5, 2003)

Atlatl for Cressia: I love it. Very fitting. Primitive, organic, and very effective . Forsee the druids developing a new low level spell the can grow servicable spears in modest numbers (caster level x2?) almost instantly, allowing units to quickly re-equip ad to expend ammo without fear. Also would simplify their suply lines and firm up their nature-loving, fire-hating tech base.

Short composite bows for Ta'jinn. The range of mongol bows is legenday, and the key to developing composite bows is not so much need, as access to materials. The semi-nomadic Ta'jinn have plenty of access to bone and sinew, materials that used in conjunction with wood lead to composite bows. I'd also advocate the pellet bow (as seen in the old Oriental Adventures) as a weapon with infinite ammo (you can always find more rocks) and as a delivery system for small magical packages (potion of explosions, miniture animated servant/spy to be recovered later). Long spears are the natural weapon of cavalry that engages in both charges and infighting. I can see the Ta'jinn centaurs using almost Japanese cavalry tactics. What I don't see the Ta'jinn having is much love for shields. A shield is simply not a practical device when you're a centaur (too much body to cover) or while flying on a griffon (do you really want a kite strapped to your arm with air going over you that fast?).

Crossbows for Stempa. Put the continent's most competent metalworking to use. Great for fortified positions (walled cities and forts), and positively armor piercing against whats out theree right now (might as well be using touch attacks compared to anyone else's armor). Crossbow however are really kinda heavy (no fun ot march around with) and like bows, dependant on quality ammunition. Should also be pointed out that our example culture, the Greeks, had an interesting habit of having cities full of ceramic potsherds. Broken triangular pieces of razor-sharp fired clay littering the streets (stuff breaks, that studd lasts forever...) so the populace became quite adept at throwing these little nasties at invaders. Strangely enough, crossed with metalworking, this could lead stempa to inventing the shuriken. Given that potsherds picked out of a gutter tend to have raw sewage on them, the notion of poisoning shurikens ain't a heckova leap...

As to the Ausel, why not take the time to get really good with thrown knives. Knives could be a suitable weapon for monks, working with their unarmed abilites, and adding some ranged support. They also have the virute of not (imediately) failing due to damp conditions, and don't drag you directly to the bottom of the sea if you go over the side. If they acquire some more viking raider feel, the a whole array of axes becomes posible, witht he hand axe filling the ranged combat niche.

Posible advances:
Cressia might also develop some sort of magic tree that can be used to fashion a limited number of +1 weapons (with holy rite allowing the fabrication of one +2 weapon per tree per year or something). Magically enhanced wood would allow them to skip some of the issues of not being big metal users.

Ta'jinn silver. The Ta'jinn have always held siver in high regard (associating it with the stars which are so important for finding your way around on the great plains). Nobles and ranking couriers of the khan have always had siver jewelry as a sign of office. When a dog warrior finally attacks one of these high ranking folks, he's gonna get burned on either a silver necklace, or possibly the few siver discs mixed into the mail on a ranking general's armor. Bamm! Person with siver survives. Effectiveness of siver discovered (and then tested) and demand for siver skyrockets. While the Ta'jinn have some, they're looking to buy more from anybody- possibly opening trade with some of the Stempa cities, or more ominously, involving the Ausel (who seem like they might have lots of silver...)


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## s/LaSH (Mar 5, 2003)

Ah yes, the atlatl. Amazingly simple for a device that nearly doubles your range and accuracy. I'm certain that the Cresians would have them, especially as they're the descendants of plains hunters. Heck, they might have used them during the Jongan or even Cave People conflicts.

I was going to suggest that silver would be largely ceremonial amongst the Ta'jinn, actually, so go with that. It's pretty but not as practical as bronze, so only the high muckety-mucks would have silver in large quantities. It could take a while for a lycanthrope to get close to someone this important, though, so I give the discovery six months to a year because lycanthropes just aren't around that often. That's enough time for one military campaign, I reckon.

Anyway! The conflict!

Ta'jinn troops have begun to persecute the northern borders of Cresia, striking from Stempan bases. Superior ranged weapon technology means they can attack weaker fortifications and take them, but the bigger Cresian fortresses are seemingly impregnable (thanks to spells and tall walls) and the Cresian troops can escape into the wilds if given the chance.

The Ta'jinn have learned that Cresians can move through rough terrain better than them, which is embarassing for nomads. They have begun to coordinate encircling attacks with griffin scouts, where they completely surround a smaller enemy force and try to eliminate them before they can escape. The Cresians, of course, use their shock troops (the deltanes) to punch a hole through the weakest part of the perimieter, usually human soldiers, and keep the rest of the jinn tied up with spells while the Cresians exfiltrate.

The Ta'jinn have a slight edge at night, because more of their troops have darkvision (something around half, as opposed to 10% for the Cresians). Most of their attacks are therefore in the dark. The godsbloods on the griffins cannot see troops by night, but their griffins can (60-foot darkvision). In response to this, the Cresians have taken to hiding in thick forest so the griffins can't fly close enough, and responding to that, the Ta'jinn develop a sweep-march formation: a wing advances spread out in a line, with the edges forward of the center, and with advance riders out in front carrying signal torches; the entire formation wraps around smaller obstacles and theoretically eliminates them.

One minor tactic used by the Ta'jinn is for a godsblood on a griffin to cast Light on a sling bullet and drop it to human troops below. Most can do this a couple of times for one nocturnal engagement.



Meanwhile, the Cresians have discovered that their supply raids aren't doing the trick in the northeastern moors, although their military presence in the area has stopped one Ta'jinn attempt to drive a few wings into the heart of Cresia down the south-eastern bank of the Cresian River. It falls on them to do something more drastic to ensure their safety - their towns are falling, although knots of resistance remain in no-man's-land. Already, maybe 5% of their population has been evacuated or 'liberated' by the Ta'jinn.

The priesthood wants to fortify the moors with a new forest and then a really big wall, thus stopping the Ta'jinn from reaching Stempa and thus Cresia. This, of course, is the 'peaceful' solution.

The military, on the other hand, favours a more direct approach. They want to find a way to nullify the Ta'jinn support structure in Stempa itself, by destroying the Tarthusian alliance - whether its cohesion, or each city-state itself, one by one. The favoured sub-option is to try diplomacy (read: massive bribery) first, but a few of the toughest soldiers are already wondering how they can bring down an entire Stempan city... and finding answers.

A couple of real hotheads want to find the Ta'jinn's home and lay waste to it. Unfortunately, nobody really knows where that might be...

The Thelian Stempans, meanwhile, are trying to sting the Tarthusians in the side. The Tarthusians have the Ta'jinn caravan guards on their side, however, so the Thelians are being a little cautious - without their Cresian allies, they're overmatched and they know it. (But that might change...)

Meanwhile, the Auselen are doing _something_... but what? And who will it benefit?


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## s/LaSH (Mar 5, 2003)

Oh, and Morgenstern: The idea of a spear-growth spell is very suiting. Trouble: It's not quite available in the core rules, thus harder to cast. Fabricate (Sor/Wiz 5) comes close, so I'd advise something like: Spear Growth (Drd 6), creates spears just like Fabricate would. Only a very few casters could manage it, in this paradigm, but they'd definitely be in high demand on the front lines.

How long until this comes up? The need won't arise until a couple of months in, with units operating far in the field, and the need won't be researched for another couple of months, and dissemination not for another couple... I'd say possibly just before the Ta'jinn figure out silver hurts lycanthropes.

Oh, and do the Cresians understand silver vulnerability? I don't see them making much use of silver, frankly, especially not in a semi-aquatic nation where it can tarnish easily. So the fact that the Ta'jinn will soon develop an anti-deltane weapon is another sign that the jinn are just unholy abominations.


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Mar 5, 2003)

I have to think that there is a way to make spear growth a lower level spell.  It basically just makes amunition afterall and magic stones and shillelaugh are super low level themselves.

As far as I know the Cressians have no idea of silver vulnerability in lycanthropes.  Earlier in the thread they had to pen lycanthropes up in special cells in order to control them.  They did know that they were sort of vulnerable to fire, and the old cave people seemed to be getting a much better understanding of what sorts of crafted goods hurt them.

Speaking of cave people, how long until the remnants/descendants of their culture, who have been studying the Cressians for forever now, contact the Ta'jinn or the Auselen?  I think they won't help but try it when a large and viable invasion force shows up in Cressia.

Two things I think the Cressians might develop.  First, the spear growth gave me the idea that the Cressians could develop the equivalent of LARPs.  They already have very very highly trained and trained to act on their own professional troops who are spend all their time moving through the wilderness, and their use of druids could enable a fairly small group to operate at a very high level of effectiveness without ever contacting a supply base.

Second, I think both sides are going to develop the equivalent of think tanks and intelligence services.  First of all, both sides are very surprised by the other.  Second they are in tactical stalemate.  The drive to learn about the other side and discover some means of breaking the tie is going to consume the time of their higher ranking officers.  Groups are going to be formed and supported who do nothing but attempt to find patterns in the enemy and creative means of exploiting them.  The Ta'jinn may have already had something like this in their council of command system, but for the Cressians this will represent a new form of labor division in their command staff.  Both sides are likely going to provoke conflicts to test theories and undergo risky operations in order to capture valuable bits of information.

That could be the means by which deltanes come into contact with a silver bedecked Ta'jinn commander.

I agree that the Centaurs are likely to only use bucklers, but the infantry of the Ta'jinn is going to be very shield based.  

I love the Ta'jinn use of flares that's exactly the sort of low level but creative magic use that the Ta'jinn should be using.

I also think that the Ta'jinn are going to start investing more heavily in their infantry tactics.  Particularly in ways of using their infantry to capture and then fortify inportant pieces of rough terrain.  They still wouldn't be able to project power through it as the Cressians do, but they would be able to severly inhibit the Cressian's ability to do so.  I also think they're likely to use a lot of traps.  Most of them probably aren't too effective against people with the Cressians expertise, but the effort could lead to important developments.  

I particularly like the idea of undead or small servitors sent to hide in the rough and make lots of noise if they 'see' anything manlike moving around.

Good lord this thread is fun.


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## Tonguez (Mar 6, 2003)

Dr. Strangemonkey said:
			
		

> *Speaking of cave people, how long until the remnants/descendants of their culture, who have been studying the Cressians for forever now, contact the Ta'jinn or the Auselen?  I think they won't help but try it when a large and viable invasion force shows up in Cressia.  *




Actually, although it was never overtly stated I had assumed that the Cave people had evolved to become the Stempa. The Cave people have not been encountered for thousands of years and it seems strange that such could have happened without the Cressians at least being aware of them. Furthermore I doubt anyone in the current age even remembers that first prehistoric battle covered in our first encounter. Its ancient history and the world is now a very different place 

 Of course if anyone wants to add the elemant of a lost trogdolyte culture which enters the fray- your welcome to it



> *Two things I think the Cressians might develop.  First, the spear growth gave me the idea that the Cressians could develop the equivalent of LARPs.  *




What are LARPS? 
(I don't think you mean they'll dress in black and pretend to be Vampires)



> *Second, I think both sides are going to develop the equivalent of think tanks and intelligence services.  First of all, both sides are very surprised by the other.  Second they are in tactical stalemate.  The drive to learn about the other side and discover some means of breaking the tie is going to consume the time of their higher ranking officers.  Groups are going to be formed and supported who do nothing but attempt to find patterns in the enemy and creative means of exploiting them. *




This provides an excellent reason to develop the Scribe Sept to which the Bards and Arcane Scholars of Cressia already belong. Taking this angle it looks like the Cressiand are going to start specialising in Divinition and Enchantment. we could also see development of an Assassin-type spell list and a Strategist PrC 

So how will development of Divinition and Enchantment become useful to the Cressians?

One obvious move is that the Cressian Diplomats will contact the Stempan city-states and seek to get behind the Ta'jinn lines and into their country via that route and with Stempan support (possibly gained through both diplomacy and bit of charm)


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## dglass (Mar 6, 2003)

A few thoughts:

How about the Stempa use the khopesh?  I don't know what the stats are but they are heavy.  Being able to wield one might be a point of pride in a culture that already puts emphasis on being strong.

Lycanthropy curse can be cured with belladona.  I think once the Ta'Jinn healers figure it out the problems with germ-warfare would be lessened.  It would still cause problems though.

I was thinking about the Auslen expeditionary force today.  The smallest unit is called a circle.  A circle consists of five soldiers.  Five circles form a cabal.  Five cabals from a convocation.  A cabal is a combined arms unit with command, infantry, magical artillery, recon and support circles.  The Auslen force which landed on the continent consisted of two convocations.  The soldiers are of House Mej'krath.  There are five houses which run Auslen.  Each house is ruled by a dragon which has set itself up as a lesser god.  The Houses, dragon, and elemental correspondences are:
Mejkrath - Red - Fire
Gorith - Bronze - Water
Chidith - Blue - Earth
Redath - Silver ((alignment is Chaotic Good)) - Air
Aebepoth - Green ((aligment is True Neutral)) - Wood
Each house has its own lands and handles internal affairs as it sees fit.  In matters of foreign policy each dragon votes.  The four houses serve to check each others power with Aebepoth being the swing vote.  Mej'krath and Chidith want to set up colonies on the continent.  Dragon debates can last for decades however and Mej'krath has sent his units north in secret.  His plan is to set up a beachead in the choicest lands.  He knows the natives will retaliate.  This will force the Good dragons hand.  If the island is threatened with invasion they will have no choice but to declare war.


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Mar 6, 2003)

I like the organization of the Auselen force, but it also needs to be adapted for ship born raiders.  How many circles are on the standard military ship?  What's the most common formation of ships?  What are the common specializations of ships?  Does the naval organization relate to the land based organization at all?

I think the small unit scales and house organization works really well as a basic idea.

And I think Khopesh's are great for the Stempans.  Lots of iron for a culture that's proud of it.  And a very nice heavy infantry weapon.

LARP was the acronym for long range American patrols in Vietnam.  Very small units that would move deep into enemy lines and be gone for forever.  Don't know a whole lot about what they actually did but training people for them lead to a revolution in the way America handled special forces.  I didn't even think about the Role-playing acronym.

I had thought that the cave people culture went sort of wild and lived on the edges of Cressian territory.  It makes sense for a lot of them to have become the Stempans.  But I had also had this thought that a portion of the culture had become a bizarre sort of criminal subculture within the greater Cressian sphere.  Sort of like gypsies in that they have their own language and many of them live on the fringes of larger cultures which tolerate them but don't do that much for them. 

The smaller culture still has some ties to Stempa, but spends much of its time quietly supporting criminal activity in Cressia and gathering information which they are extremely cautious about using so they do not expose themselves to harm or render it useless by forcing the Cressians to adapt to the fact that it is widely known.  

Ehh, it's just an idea.

In terms of the use of divination magic.  The range on it is so limited, that I expect both sides are going to end up creating formations of information specialists.  Organizations of more or less traditional intelligence agents, but also highly mobile elite military units centered around spellcasters specializing in divination, enchantment, stealth, and travel magics.   Their units would specialize getting into and out of strange places safely and quickly, capturing people, cultivating treachery, and assessing battlefield situations accurately.  Diviners will end up on scouting missions and in special overwatch points on battlefields.

Among the Ta'jinn this role comes naturally to the god-blooded and those persons belonging to the Khan's Table.

I also thought that the Ta'jinn might start making nets, lassoes, torches, and bolas a standard part of the equipment and start really researching alchemical equipment.   Fire having obvious utility against the Cressians.


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## GladiusNP (Mar 6, 2003)

dglass said:
			
		

> *A few thoughts:
> 
> There are five houses which run Auslen.  Each house is ruled by a dragon which has set itself up as a lesser god.  The Houses, dragon, and elemental correspondences are:
> Mejkrath - Red - Fire
> ...




Dragons seem pretty strong for this stage, though I suppose they could be young adults/etc.  With regard to the current conflict, what do people think the Auselen are doing?  I can't imagine them being unaware of the batles on the mainland (scrying / familiars).  What sort of plan would they put into place? I'd personally go for increased raiding on the Cressians - the Ta'Jinn aren't really settled enough for the type of raids the Auselen conduct.  

Maybe this leads to the Thelians becoming even more involved, committing their war-galleys to aid Cressian sail-skiffs and cetacean chariots.  Some sort of naval conflict could be very interesting, and the Ta'Jinn might get a nasty surprise if the Cressians could get some Stempan soldiers to sail past the army and attack from the rear - or better yet, a force of Deltanes, who coordinate (through animal messenger) a joint strike against the main body of the Tamarch with a large force of Cressians and Thelian warriors.  

That's it for now - I have to go to class.


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## s/LaSH (Mar 7, 2003)

Let's see...

The Auselen don't really want to conquer, I wouldn't imagine. They just want treasure. If they are led by dragons, what's to say these creatures aren't ancient mages, undergoing a transformation? (It's stretching it, but it's a happy medium.)

So if they become involved, they're not going to come in force; they're going to show up on an individual basis, with a 125-soldier ship (one convocation per ship) or two, looking for booty. Right about now, I imagine they're seeing the potential for making all sorts of profits; I expect the regular number of raiders will engage Cresian shores this year, but as many again will sail up the north-west coast looking for people to sell their services to. This could put another thousand troops into the fray, which (between ten-thousand-man armies) might not seem like much, but Auselen troops often come with monsters...

The first enterprising captain (we'll call her Mogan) has two ships, two hundred and fifty troops (two convocations), and half a dozen gargantuan zombies in her personal guard, each tended by burly men with chains as 'handlers'. (These zombies are of titanic humanoid creations later abandoned by their Auselen creators.) Shall we say she's a level 10 sorcerer? While not capable of teleportation (not yet developed), she still knows Dimension Door, so she enters the largest Cresian city under Ta'jinn siege, the second city down the Cresian River from Stempa - the Ta'jinn have occupied the northern bank that holds the city, and while the Cresians hold the river from their central channel and can thus supply the city, the Ta'jinn have huge numbers massing in the area (two thousand troops), and more griffins are seen overhead every day.

Mogan's troops engage in a daytime raid the land, catching the night-oriented jinn off guard. Moving rapidly, the two convocations pierce the Ta'jinn encampments - two Fireballs blow four dozen jinn to bits - and then the zombies are set loose in the heart of the enemy camp. Auselen troops themselves account for another two hundred enemy casualties before they break through to the river and their ships for a hasty escape, losing only a dozen soldiers due to the speed of their attack.

The half-dozen zombies are doomed, but they don't know that - before they crumple to the ground, each one manages to take out maybe 15 soldiers, for a total of a hundred more casualties. All in all, the convocations caused 350 casualties, bringing the jinn's numbers down to 1650 in the siege - in total, over half a wing was lost. The Tamarch leaders are not pleased.

Meanwhile, Mogan recieves a hefty bounty in gold and Northern carvings. Which brings up her second tactic: selling zombies to the Cresians. While there aren't as many gargantuan corpses as she'd like, she's sure she can turn a profit with almost zero risk.

What do the Cresians do?

That said, the first thing the Auselen do upon learning of her success is send more ships out. Some go to the River of Heaven in Ta'jinn territory, others go to Cresia. And within a year, the Auselen high lords have forbidden raiding expeditions altogether.

Why? Because their mercenaries and magical services are in great demand, and it's in Ausel's interests to prolong the war as long as possible so they can turn a buck. The Secret Accords are drawn up: no Auselen convocation is to fight for a winning force, nor trade their services to that force, nor attack simply for pillage. In this way, the Auselen hope to milk everyone dry.

Will they succeed?


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## GladiusNP (Mar 7, 2003)

Cool scenario s/LASH.  The Accords of Helg (Or whatever people want to call them) are probably going to be disregarded by at least some of the raider captains.  I can easily imagine captains raiding on the sly - maybe even fighting in disguise for a winning side.  That said, we should proably keep the Auselen fairly united for the purposes of the scenario - though an Auselen splinter faction, on the mainland could be cool, it's probably a bit too much to throw into the pot.

Are the Stempa going to get seriously involved?  Right now I think that the development of the actual war/tactics has slightly stalled out - probably due to the fact that we no longer have a arbitrator.  Not that I'm volunteering, but someone who could maybe put things into a 'canon' plot, just to make things clearer.  (IE, like Rangerwickett was doing for Cressia vs. Jonga)  Maybe I'm wrong however, and we should keep going as we are.  Others' thoughts/ nominations?


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## Speaker (Mar 7, 2003)

Amazing work all around, folks.  I can't wait to see what happens through round 3.

This is a public support announcement.  When I'm more awake, I'll try to contribute something .


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## s/LaSH (Mar 7, 2003)

GladiusNP said:
			
		

> *Cool scenario s/LASH.  The Accords of Helg (Or whatever people want to call them) are probably going to be disregarded by at least some of the raider captains.  I can easily imagine captains raiding on the sly - maybe even fighting in disguise for a winning side.  That said, we should proably keep the Auselen fairly united for the purposes of the scenario - though an Auselen splinter faction, on the mainland could be cool, it's probably a bit too much to throw into the pot.*




Well, this is the role I always thought the Auselen should fulfil in this scenario. Disinterested, superior, dabbling occasionally. Fairly safe in their own territory, because they have the only ships that can reliably reach Ausel, and some fairly heavy bestial defences.

Thoughts on the reactions of the various factions to the Auselen showing up offering varied services, anyone? I see them as the fastest way to break the field-superiority/fortress-superiority stalemate we seem to have right now...


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## dglass (Mar 8, 2003)

Oh, RangerWickett!  Why hast thou forsaken us?
I was wondering what people thought about making the Auslen use Monte Cooks alternate Sorcerers?  It would be neat to make them different from the continental Sorcerers.  I don't know if adding material from non-canon sources is keeping within the perimeters of this experiment.

Speaking of which, how about a name for this world?  I am definitly going to use it in my game.


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## s/LaSH (Mar 8, 2003)

RW has indeed forsaken us, but I believe he said he was going to leave the thread to we, the Public, for this round. So let's not disappoint him, guys.

I'm not in favour of accepting non-canon material. I may have said this before, but I'll say it again: in my opinion, the purpose of this thread precludes non-Core rules, because it's supposed to be about tactics in a D&D world, and third-party stuff (even Monte's) isn't core - we need to develop core tactics first. Hence my worries about crafting new spells that seem useful and balanced, but aren't actually in the rulebooks... like Spear Growth, which was an awesome spell but not Core.

And a name for the world? That's difficult. Right now all we've got is an area roughly as big as France. We might want to go another couple of rounds (!) before settling on anything permanent... I've got a horrible idea for the next round, but I won't say anything just yet because it seriously changes everything.

Anyone else?


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## Morgenstern (Mar 8, 2003)

Hey, I've always found my limited comments to be well recieved and integrated fairly. The first few skirmished on the Cressian/Ta'Jinn conflict seem like they are shaping up nicely. Still eager to see Stempa spies get in on the mix, but there's time for all that. Things are moving along well,, so I certainly intend to remain subscribed to this thread.

Sticking to core material is reasonable, as it sets a very clear guideline (even if Sticks to Spears has to wait for annother time ).

After we finish this round, I'll try to take some time to write up a few prestige classes and maybe a spell or two to adapt alll of these musing a little more thoroughly to a playable environment.

Have at thee, Cressian dogs!


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## GladiusNP (Mar 9, 2003)

*Cressian Field superiority?*

Okay - maybe we should run through another field engagement.  In conference with the generals of Thelia and the some of the most respected Huntsmasters of Cressia, and the enigmatic Auselen Sorceress Mogan, one of the Cressian Generals develops a plan.  Being from the northern moors near Stempa (and the current conflict), he is one of the Aetae - the descendents of one of the Hill Folk tribes.  

The ancestral weapon of the Aetae is the atlatl, and the Cressian high command see the utility of this weapon pretty quickly.  They equip ten hunts of experienced militia with these weapons.  Mogan sells another four zombies to the Cressians at exorbitant rates (two of them recycled from the earlier battle).  The Cressians also assemble ten packs of their best Deltane beastmen, sending half of the weaker Deltanes to other cities, leaving Karvos (the city which was freed by Mogans’ gargantuan Zombies) defended by the elites.  Though they have to take Deltanes from other cities (which means the Ta’Jinn manage to grow even bolder) the High Command feels its’ worth it.  They also get a pack of Druids - though only fifteen strong, they are some of the more experienced Druids around.  Also, one hundred and fifty Thelian veterans of the Tarthusian War are pledged in exchange for Cressian aid in the siege of Belephthos.  Lastly, five scribe sept Bards come with them.

Meanwhile, to the south of Karvos the remaining 1650 Ta’Jinn are licking their wounds.  They have encamped in a small, narrow valley, about two days south of Karvos., and are low on food (a Cressian ambush managed to wipe out most of their supplies in transit).  The heaviest losses were among the men from a province north of the Heaven River valley called Khamer.  Feared, agile, and worthy warriors in their own right, they are disgruntled with the leadership of the last battle.  Stempan spies have observed this, and one of the Scribe sept of Cressia volunteers for a dangerous mission - using Tongues and Alter Self, she will sneak into the Ta’Jinn camp disguised as a Khamer war dancer, sent as a messenger, and spread dissent.  

The Cressians begin their march south, on a cloudy dawn, towards the Ta’Jinn (Found by scrying).  The Godsblood Wu Xian, a reknowned archer (sorcerer multiclassed with fighter) is awoken by his griffin - who indicates the Cressians are moving from Karvos.  Wu Xian takes up his bow, stamps out his fire, and climbs onto his Griffin.  Cautiously, he leaves the bluff where he has encamped to watch Karvos, taking care to keep the rising sun on the other side of the Cressians - so he will not be silhouetted against it.  

Knowing the range of the Cressian Javelins, he decides to take a closer look, eager to find the composition of the force, and maybe practise his archery on the Cressian dog-men.  He is seen on his first low overflight.  Unfortunately, he fails to complete his second, as he is struck by a storm of Javelins, and dies, as does his mount (Mogan later accepts the corpse in lieu of payment for the Zombies - Redath developed griffins, Mogan knows little of the magic used to create them.)

The march continues south, and the Godsblood riding north to relieve Wu Xian is set upon by several giant eagles (Think-tank innovation), one ridden by a cloaked Cressian druid (Stempan spies have reported the Godsblood‘s system of rotation).  The Ta’Jinn dies - but manages to send a message via whispering wind.  The Ta’Jinn have never had their aerial superiority threatened, and they unfortunately (for them) are much more concerned about what the Cressians have developed to attack griffins - so they send twenty centaurs to investigate rather than risking a griffin. 

Scouting Deltanes find the centaurs at dusk, and they are killed when they try and stand off to shoot - used to the superior range of the long-bow, they make Wu Xian’s mistake, and Deltanes with atlatls mananeg to wound and kill several.  Deltanes and Druids polymorphed into panthers pursue and finish off the survivors, managing to kill all of them, though not without some difficult chases.

The Ta’Jinn await the centaurs, and after marching through the night the Cressians arrive at the Ta’Jinn encampment.  The Khamer and Heaven River troops have fires going, as does a small force of Stempa from Lesthen - equipped with Khopeshes.  Deltanes kill the sentries, with the Bards silencing the conflicts.  The Druids then pull out the wands of Faerie fire they have made over the last week.  All but one - the highest level, cast faerie fire towards the centaurs (do centaurs sleep standing, like horses?) and the highest level quenches the fires of the Khamer, Heaven River, and Lesthen.  Atlatls send javelins humming towards the Centaurs - who are now highlighted with Faerie Fire on an overcast night, being fired upon from outside of 60 feet.  Nine of the packs of Deltanes kill pretty much with impunity among the Jinn humans.  About ten of the Khamer escape up to the Cressian lines - the Cressian operative has convinced them that the Zombies are now able to be mass-produced.  

The Centaurs not caught with Faerie fire attempt to attack the Cressian spear-throwers, but the line of protective Thelians manage to stand firm - not without some assistance from Druids, and the fact that the centaurs are unable to attack in strength.  The Deltanes then retreat, and the Zombies of Mogan are released into the already panicked troops of the Ta’Jinn.  The atlatls cover the retreat of the Deltanes and the less-mobile Thelians , then retreat into the woods.  

The Druids, Deltanes, and atlatl soldiers all harass the Ta’Jinn as they attempt to retreat to the Tamarch’s forces.  Three hundred and twenty-eight return to the south - nearly all of them centaurs, most of the Heaven River troops succumbing to the ambushes of the Cressians on the march. 

What intelligence do the Khamer give?  How will the Centaur who slew a Deltane with a ceremonial silver dagger used in the dawn worship service use his knowledge?  What of the Cressian air force?  Will the armies of Lesthen ever get to use their khopeshes ;-)?  Can the Cressians repeat their success without their elaborate set up?  How do the Tamarch react to loosing three and a half wings of men?

What do you all think?


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## dglass (Mar 9, 2003)

I'm not good at writing so I will leave the actual battles up to you guys.  I have thought up some more nasty tricks.

One Detect Scrying spell would go a long way to keeping troops alive.  Rather then just standing around after you have been found you would know to either change location or set up an ambush for the impending attack.  The Nondetection spell might see some limited use.  I think it would be cast on leaders if an assasination attempt is suspected.

Spies who have infiltrated the camp could cast Invisibility then Detect Thoughts while standing outside the enemy commanders tent.  If Bard, Sorcerer, or Wizard they can then Whispering Wind the intelligence to allies.  I'm not sure what a Cleric could do.

Someone mentioned using Detect Magic to single out casters.  Casting Nystul's Undetectable Aura would let you move about the battlefield a little easier.  I see this as becoming more and more important in later rounds.  Entire fields of specialty might arise from the need to identify and neutralize enemy casters while defending your own.

The Mount spell might provide a useful trick.  It would appear as though your forces are too far away.  They couldn't march fast enough to get to the battle in time.  And even if they could they would be to tired to make a difference.  Two hours later your forces ride over the hill.  They leap from thier mounts which then disappear.  I couldn't see it working often but maby once.

I think the Cressians are going to become adept at fighting in rough weather.  The first time Call Lightning is used is going to be devastating.  Another one is Ice Storm.  It has a long range and a cylinder effect.  The Control Winds spell might make any sort of aerial superiority moot.  Griffons can still fight on the ground but I don't think they would want to.

Finally, the Cloudkill spell.  This is most useful when you are trying to hold the high ground such as a tower on a hill.  Just cast this and let it roll down into the enemy.  If someone already has the fog of war going it becomes even more confusing to the attackers.


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## GladiusNP (Mar 9, 2003)

dglass said:
			
		

> *I think the Cressians are going to become adept at fighting in rough weather.  The first time Call Lightning is used is going to be devastating.
> *




Was actually planning on using this in the previous battle, but decided that if the Druids did too much, it wasn't really going to help Cressia develop any new sort of tactics, although there was already alot of magic flying around.


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Mar 11, 2003)

Byzantine battle manuals always recommend you fight nomads in the rain and wet.

Moisture reduces the effectiveness of composite and long bows by a great deal.

I think the Ta'jinn are going to have to either get better magical support or come up with some really great plan.  If the Cressians start regular showing up with large forces and bad weather than things are going to start going really badly for them.

We got bumped back to the third page.  That ain't right.  I promise to start writing more and paying attention.


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## s/LaSH (Mar 12, 2003)

So far, it appears the Cresians don't have the ability to control the weather - for some reason, only Auselen captains can do this. This is likely to change, however, but not just yet - we've got to wait for one more 'swing' before they're likely to get that.

All right, the Ta'jinn have taken a very serious blow in both the breaking of the siege at Karvos, and the subsequent slaughter of three and a half Wings. Furthermore, the Cresians now have giant eagles, and a huge advantage in their (small) number of terrifying zombie giants.

Although their air force is yet small, the Cresians can make the Ta'jinn shake at the thought of losing their most valuable weapon, the griffin scouts. Accompanied by a small squad of aerial supremacy riders, and capable of scrying, the Cresians advance along the River from Karvos and send the Ta'jinn scrambling back to their Tarthusian bases. (Oversimplification, yes, but an army of towering rotted corpses really would send me running, I tell ya; we can assume that this is the general tide of the war over the next month or so.)

And then the Auselen upset the balance again. As a Cresian scout force is passing through seemingly friendly territory in Thelian ground, preparing to besiege a Tarthusian fortress, the very Earth comes alive around them, and much to their surprise their Deltanes are hammered into mush - as are most of their number. Earth elementals - 20 of them, and the Auselen just sold them to the Ta'jinn. While the actual Stones of Controlling Earth Elementals are still in the hands of Auselen high lords (the only ones with the ability to use them), the elementals are quite the coup for the Ta'jinn...

What hapens next?


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Mar 12, 2003)

I'm really stumped for a proper Ta'jinn response to current Cressian tactics.  I'm going to distract myself at the library tomorrow to see if I can discover what, if any, tactics nomadic or semi-nomadic armies have used against light infantry in the past.

One thing that the Ta'jinn are should certainly be taking advantage of is their superior mobility and intelligence.  I think the Centaurs are going to start leaving behind many of their medium infantry compatriots and work with their aerial intelligence and better intelligence capability overall to outflank and out run Cressian troop movements.

A big issue the Ta'jinn have to deal with is a magic gap.  While they are very adept at facing magical beasts and outsiders they have never encountered a foe with the concentration of magical might that the Cressians possess.  I suspect that there are two strategies they will pursue:

1.) Acquire more magical might from internal and external sources.  The river folk don't really have any useful combat magic, but the Stempans have clerics and they might be able to hire some Auselen.

2.) Make better use of the edges they do have.  This may mean some retraining for the dedicated magic users they do have, but what I also see the Ta'jinn doing is working to train as many of their men as possible in low level magics.  Particularly in the infantry.

They're in a unique position to do this since their military is slightly more professional than any of their competitors, save perhaps the Auselens, and they don't have any strong cultural institutions surrounding magic.  With the exception of the god-blooded all of their magical ability is tied into simple professions rather than religion, vocation, or aristocracy.

Now, obviously, having five level one practitioners on the field does not give you the magical might that having 2 level five practitioners does.  But it does make your force much more effective vs. magic users since you have a lot more detect magic spells to fight the enemy with, more of the low level buff and healing spells that your warriors can use, and more of the illusion spells that can cripple your opponents' concentration checks.


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Mar 12, 2003)

Curses, I was anticipated by the story line.

From the Ta'jinn perspective the Auselen are bad news.  The whole purpose of their skirmishes in Stempa has been to prepare for an invasion of Cressia by:

a.) Strengthening their position in Stempa to prevent aid coming to the Cressians from that quarter

b.) Gather intelligence on Cressian tactics and capabilities.

c.) tie up and destroy Cressian resources

Now they have suffered heavy losses and are faced with a new faction that appears to be making both goals impossible as they are increasing instability in Stempa and adding new factors to the Cressian scenario.

That's the larger view of the Ta'jinn.

On a smaller scale, they are delighted by the new toys and the potential to learn new tactics that the Auselen have introduced.  So they enter into negotiations with them and try to learn as much as they can.

This aids them in coming closer to goal B.  And gives them an advantage in working towards goal A.

While the Ta'jinn do use their new toys in combat as frequently as possible,  they do not push the Cressians as hard as they could.   Instead they use demonstrations of the effectiveness of their new might to impress their local allies.   Ta'jinn agents move throughout Stempa and saturate Tarthus.   They argue that it is time that the Stempa brought out their own forces to aid the Ta'jinn in finally pushing out the Cressians with their fanatical foriegn religion and that the time to commit that aid is now while the Ta'jinn are winning but before they have totally beaten the Cressians.  

The Stempans surely would not wish to appear weak or be forced to allow the Ta'jinn to occupy the lands of the Cressian allies when the Stempans might do so on their own would they?

The Ta'jinn realize that they need a more faithful ally than the Auselen and stronger than simply the Tarthusians alone.  They are pushing for Stempa to go to war.

At the same time, they make certain to prepare for a retreat.  They litter their campaign route with outposts of their infantry and thouroughly scout the routes by which the Centaurs might move easily, quickly, and deftly across the land.  They suspect the Auselen will betray them and they intend to be well prepared.  They do, however, hope that the Auselen will let them use the earth elementals on the walls of one of Cressia's Stempan allies.

At present they actually cede control of the skies to the Cressians.  They still use their griffin scouts, but make certain that they are able to avoid the Cressian units by moving at night and taking advantage of the vastly superior range of their weapons.   They have decided to leave the question of the eagles up to the god-blooded, to do otherwise would be to impinge on their honor, and simply adapt their ground tactics to the presence of enemy aerial force.  Something they are not too bad at doing given their own knowledge of the implications of aerial power and a combination of Cressian inexperience and concern with simple air superiority.


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## GladiusNP (Mar 12, 2003)

Just a few thoughts.  The Cressians are going to be upset with the Auselen - but only if they learn of them.  The Auselen are playing both ends against the middle pretty well so far, but how long can they keep it up?  Maybe then we can get some of the navies into play – though only as a sideshow.  

Earth elementals a very nice touch, and provide a very good counterpoint to the Deltanes – who’ve pretty much been responsible for the good run Cressia have had so far in holding out the Ta’Jinn.  The fog around Ta’Jinn forces with Deltane scouts (way back, the part about firing into fog to suppress Ta’Jinn while lycanthropes ripped them up) is a tactic that can now be prevented by elementals as well, and walls are less of a problem now as well.  

What will the Cressians develop as a counter?  Increased mobility again – they are going to keep as far away from those elementals as possible.  More magic?  None of the gods of Stempa really have earth as a portfolio, save for maybe Mastos (god of Lesthen) and Lesthen are with Tarthus – no possibility of Stempan clerics turning earth elementals for the Cressians then.  Druids aren’t that great against elementals, unless I’ve missed something.  Bards in the Scribe Sept won’t be able to do much either.

One thing about the elementals – I can’t see them really being adopted heavily into Ta’Jinn forces in the long term.  Unless they really change their fighting style, Earth Elementals are just too slow for the agile nomads.  This could be what allows the Cressians time to find a counter.  For the moment, I can picture massive battles between zombies and elementals – slow motion slug-fests in the middle of the agile Cressians and Ta’Jinn.  

With that said, the Godsblood have really been somewhat ineffective.  Maybe it’s time they come into their own.  A magic missile barrage from two or three of the highest level could damage a Zombie enough to take it down.  Plus, the undead are now old news, centaurs now encircle them, and fill them with arrows, riding out of the way.  It’s slow, but minimizes losses.  

Agree with the points that the Cressian air force is still pretty small – very few Druids have any regular contact with the eagles, who live in the Stempan highlands.  It’s also not going to be terribly effective.  Godsblood reconnaissance, ground assault, ground-force cover are all going to be well-integrated into the Ta’Jinn’s battle plans.  Not so with the eagles of the Cressia, who also must attack en masse to take down a griffon – let alone one with a godsblood rider. 


To the war…

Though the Ta’Jinn are still building their reserves, small forays into Cressia are met with heavy resistance.  In two separate occasions, zombies and elementals go head to head.  Though one of the elementals is taken out by two zombies, Cressia is desperately low on the undead, and the Auselen Mogan claims to have no more (Accords of Helg and/or telling the truth.)  

Shall we say, only two zombies remain to the Cressians?  Maybe even that’s too generous.  

Anyway Thelia is now in serious trouble.  Cressia is pretty much back to their own borders – unless something drastic happens, Thelia is going to be conquered by earth elementals, crashing through the walls.  Tarthus is very keen to push on and take out Thelia, and the Ta’Jinn place the city under siege, trying to persuade Tarthus into a formal alliance.

On the frontier between Cressia and the Tamarch, the pressure eases slightly for the Cressians.  The majority of the elementals have headed to Thelia, to show Tarthusian observers that the Ta’Jinn are indeed the beloved of heaven, and the bloodline of the gods.  Ogres might be useful in the siege – I’m happy to run it through, but just want to check if any others have anything else to add?

The Auselen – Cressian relationship grows increasingly strained.  Godsblood begin to patrol the skies – but now in teams of three, and only near to allied ground forces.  Thelia braces its’ forces for siege.  Cressia desperately searches for a true counter for the power of the Ta’Jinn elementals. 

(This thread is far too much fun.)

{Edit - spelling errors)


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## Robbert Raets (Mar 12, 2003)

Not to intrude on anyone's playground or anything - but wouldn't the Cressian Druids have a swarm of small/tiny winged animal companions available? And are they really the kind of people who would rely on zombies?


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Mar 12, 2003)

The druids could very well have a swarm of tiny winged things, but I have discovered through 'personal experience(what does one call RPG based knowledge)' that while they make excellent scouts their survivability in combat is low and once you've sacraficed around a quarter of them or more all of your animal companions start thinking about leaving.

Good point on the zombies, noone has written anything on the funeral customs of the Cressians.  I kind of like the idea of them being the sort who leave bodies in designated places for nature to take care of.  Maybe they simply think of the zombies as some weird sort of construct or creature having had very little knowledge of the undead.

I would love to see anyone's idea on how a large Stempan force would be organized.  And any sort of specific ideas on how Stempan society works.   Like where do the ogres come from and how do they work in society normally.


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## Robbert Raets (Mar 12, 2003)

Hmm... I'll do a web search on 'phalanx'.

http://digilander.libero.it/tepec/falange.htm
http://depthome.brooklyn.cuny.edu/classics/dunkle/athnlife/warfare1.htm


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Mar 12, 2003)

Robbert Raets said:
			
		

> *Hmm... I'll do a web search on 'phalanx'. *




Don't forget that the Stempans have better heavy bladed weapons than the Greeks did, Heavier armor, and worse spears than the Cressians.

Doesn't mean that they won't use phalanxes, but does mean that they should put more flexibility into their formations to take advantage of their killer khopeshes, lesser need to rely on shields, and to compensate for their slightly less reliable polearms.

Speaking of Spears and Cressians...

...has anyone considered that the Cressians might start developing infantry formation in line with those used by the Zulus?  They have the tech to create those super neat spears and really disciplined light infantry with the morale to actually try a solid formation.


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## Robbert Raets (Mar 12, 2003)

Okay, taking tech into account I still think Stempans are very likely to have an archaic shield wall/turtle style formation, like the Greek Phalanxes or the Roman Legions.

On the pages I found it said that the Greek city-states neglected archers and cavalry because they'd mostly be fighting an enemy Phalanx from one of the other city-states.

But expanding on the Roman set-up (mind you, this knowledge is coming more from Asterix comics rather than accurate historical knowledge ), I'd say a Kentyron of one-hundred swordsmen would be the base unit of the Stempans. It is sub-diveded in ten-man Dekyrons, and supported by a 15-25 archery unit, a small group of officers and a few horsemen or chariots (did the Stempans have those or not?). Supplies are delivered by 3-5 ox-carts guarded by a single Dekyron.

How's that?


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## GladiusNP (Mar 12, 2003)

Just jumping back to the zombie thing - the Zombies were failed experiments of the Auselen to create giant humanoids.  The Cressians may not really understand that these are reanimated corpses, since they never saw the original living creatures.  What with their lack of Clerics and Wizards, necromancy isn't an area of magic that I can see them investing a lot of study in.

Which brings us to an interesting point.  What happens when they do find out what these zombies are?  The Stempa probably have a pretty good idea of necromantic magic - some of their mid-level clerics can cast animate dead, or are at least high enough level to research it.  The Cressians probably see this as a corruption of the Field-father's balance of nature, further distancing them from the Auselen. 

That's it for now.


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## dglass (Mar 12, 2003)

GladiusNP said:
			
		

> *Just jumping back to the zombie thing - the Zombies were failed experiments of the Auselen to create giant humanoids.  The Cressians may not really understand that these are reanimated corpses, since they never saw the original living creatures.  What with their lack of Clerics and Wizards, necromancy isn't an area of magic that I can see them investing a lot of study in.
> 
> Which brings us to an interesting point.  What happens when they do find out what these zombies are?  The Stempa probably have a pretty good idea of necromantic magic - some of their mid-level clerics can cast animate dead, or are at least high enough level to research it.  The Cressians probably see this as a corruption of the Field-father's balance of nature, further distancing them from the Auselen.
> 
> That's it for now. *




I would have to agree.  With the Auselen playing both sides it seems the Stempa will decide the outcome of the war.  Whoever they ally with with gain the upper hand.  I personally would like to see the Cressians win.   They are kind of the 'pet' civilization of this thread.


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## dglass (Mar 12, 2003)

Dr. Strangemonkey said:
			
		

> *
> I would love to see anyone's idea on how a large Stempan force would be organized.  And any sort of specific ideas on how Stempan society works.   Like where do the ogres come from and how do they work in society normally. *




Question: do they have to be Ogres?  I've never really thought of Ogres (even the mage variety) as creatures that would ever fit into any sort of civilization.

I have always had a soft spot for the goblinoid races.  I think they get a bad reputation.  Not all of them are stupid just uneducated.  True, Bugbears are not as strong as Ogres but they could use levers and pulleys like the greeks did.  I think the goblinoids could coexist with humans in Stempa.  The Goblins and Bugbears would make up the lower social strata.  Doing the jobs no one else wants to.  Goblins have an average intelligence but I think the lower charisma, strength and small size would make them second-class.  Hobgoblins have average intelligence, wisdom, and charisma with a slightly higher strength, dexterity, and constitution compared to humans.  They would be citizens too in Stempa.  Perhaps the Hobgoblins would do the 'hard' work.  Tilling fields, construction, hunting game, that sort of thing.  Meanwhile the weaker but more creative Humans would do the cooking, weaving, pottery, stuff like that. Leaders could come from anywhere.

I think in prehistory (that is to say Round One) the tribes of humans and goblinoids lived near each other.  They probably fought a little.  Perhaps there was a disease, or drought, or both which caused a strain communities.  A forward looking leader then figured out that if they worked togather they would have a better chance and pitched it to the other tribe.  The two peoples survived the hard times and just kept going.


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Mar 13, 2003)

dglass said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I would have to agree.  With the Auselen playing both sides it seems the Stempa will decide the outcome of the war.  Whoever they ally with with gain the upper hand.  I personally would like to see the Cressians win.   They are kind of the 'pet' civilization of this thread. *




Actually, and this may be jumping ahead a bit, I would like to see the Cressians and the Ta'jinn settle their differences and go up against the Auselen and some of the Stempan city states for the next round.

The only thing the Cressians and the Ta'jinn have against each other at the moment is that they only understand enough about each other to be discouraged about talks and to see that the other is a threat.  

This when it seems to me that the Auselens are the most threatening force.  Both the Cressians and the Ta'jinn are essentially non-aggressive expansionists.   The Ta'jinn are happy to participate in conflict, but can't really use much that isn't plains without having to deal with a large conquered population that they can't ever adapt into their culture.   The Cressians are happy to gain more areas for the living cities, but they have to expand slowly to let them grow and conquest is unpleasant because it takes them forever to indoctrinate anyone and they have to rework their whole social structure in order to do so.  

Both cultures are, however, highly paranoid as a result of fighting really evil magical cultures who threatened not just their soveriegnty but their entire value system.   Both cultures see internal stability as paramount and dependent on preventing exterior aggression. Thus, while they have their own reasons for entering into the Stempan conflict in the first place, they have reacted in fundamentally similar ways throughout the conflict itself.  Only their cultural signs, not their policies or codes, clash.

The Auselen, on the other hand, hold refugees from the cultures both Cressia and the Khanate abhor, are magically invested in ways that both cultures detest, and have a society of high competition and flexibility that is built on fostering conflict and draining resources.  The Auselen are just better at hiding all of this.

Another source of conflict is the immediate goals of the war.  The change in the conflict will occur when the Cressians and the Ta'jinn realize that they are fighting each other to deter and remove a threat to their socities that only has potency because they are so ignorant of each other.  It is true that they are in competition, but no more so than they have been with the Stempan states against whom neither of the powers have ever contemplated a war of annihilation since they represent at most a minor threat to each culture's internal stability.   The Auselen, on the other hand, are a culture who's only goal as an ally or enemy is to destabilize both cultures and they are willing to use methods that neither side would readily contemplate.

Think of it:

The Auselen have given Zombies to a culture that has never seen them before but reveres life and is deeply distrustful of heavily destructive magic.  

The Auselen have given Elementals to a culture that has never seen them before but deeply distrusts the idea of summoning extra-planar entities and the idea of high level arcane magic generally.  They have exhibited double dealing and Machiavellian tactics with a culture that deeply prizes honesty, personal heroism, and law.

The Auselen goal is to increase instability at no cost to themselves and open up opportunities to compromise treaties that hold them in check.  Materially they hope to gain control of some Stempan cities and ground that has been left open by the diminishment of both Cressia and the Khanate.

The Auselen seek to prolong the war.  When the Cressians and Ta'jinn send large forces through the no-man's land they will encounter obscenely powerful Auselen forces that will make sure that the two original forces waste each others resources while they become more deeply entrenched.


The turn will come when the Stempans get their act together and threaten to enter the war as an independent or game ending component of the conflict.

As the stability of the conflict threatens to unravel the Auselen will inadvertantly turn their hand by attempting to right the conflict through powerful magics used against the Stempa.  Both of the original cultures will discover a new threat and a three way war will break out until interaction with the now truly frightened Stempans reveals the nature of the two empires to each other and attention turns to the Auselen.

The end of the conflict would be a dirty sort of stalemate and relationships between the three continental powers could be better or worse, but Cressia and the Khanate agree that they have bigger fish to fry than each other and the Stempans agree that anything is better than having other people's wars fought on your own soil.  The Auselens, on the other hand, feel that all their interests are best spend in attempting to unbalance power in their favor


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## Tonguez (Mar 13, 2003)

Dr. Strangemonkey said:
			
		

> *The end of the conflict would be a dirty sort of stalemate and relationships between the three continental powers could be better or worse, but Cressia and the Khanate agree that they have bigger fish to fry than each other and the Stempans agree that anything is better than having other people's wars fought on your own soil.  The Auselens, on the other hand, feel that all their interests are best spend in attempting to unbalance power in their favor *




Yeah it does seem that we have got to a stalemate both in terms of the Ta'jinn/Cressia conflict and our own ability to develop the conflict meaningfully without going into a title mega-beast proliferation meltdown "_okay I'll see your Collosal Zombi and Raise you an Earth Elemental_"

The Cressians match the mobility of the Ta'Jinn and are both more manouverable over uneven terrain and less vunerable to damage (due to Deltane DR and ability to use cover). However the Ta'Jinn have the advantage of speed and greater military experience allowing them to hold out against the Cressian attacks

Both sides have invested huge amounts of resource and have suffered significant casualties. The Stempa I can see withdrawing and actually staying out of the campaign as they see it as a pointless conflict. Of course mecenary bands are brought in mainly Heavy Infantry (no Chariots as Stempa is too rugged and mountanous) which prove ineffective when faced with the mobility of both Cressia and the Ta'Jinn, but who are useful in withstanding seiges.

Finally the High Priestess of the Dog Mother sends ambassadors to the Ta'Jinn Khan suing for peace. She has discovered the true nature of the Zombi's and is appalled that her people should stoop to such vileness. Moreover the Scribes Sept has discovered the Auselen treachery.

Okay - still time for others to accelerate the conflict between Ta'Jinn ad Cressia if they so wish (afterall an assainated Ambassador is often a good catylyst for genocide!)

but personally I'd like to move on (this round being declared a tie)....


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## s/LaSH (Mar 13, 2003)

What's to say we can't fast-forward a little bit? Think of a tactic, think of a counter-tactic - or a logical progression, at any rate. That's what we're about here, and don't really need to delve much deeper. The culture builds itself, as we've discovered.

In the interests of this:

The Ta'jinn consolidate their control of Stempa. The elementals are their supreme weapon in this territory, able to cross rough terrain and wreak grievous havoc upon the fortresses that the Thelians value so much. To make a point, they lay siege to and destroy an entire city-state's capitol on the Thelian side, one with many Cresian units in its garrison. (Someone more familiar with Stempan geopolitical structure decide this one, please?)

Fortresses are suddenly no longer valid tactics.

The Auselen stage a mock battle over an unimportant town near the front lines, between 'rival' captains. The battle is an impasse, and very few casualties are taken by either side. Both Cresia and the Ta'jinn are convinced that the Auselen are still just fragmented raiders (they have no idea of the existance of the High Lords of Ausel, and less of the Accords of Helg).

It looks like Stempa is the battleground for now, and the Auselen are quite willing to foster this situation - after all, they might be able to start selling defensive creatures and technology to the Stempans too, but they have to keep the war going in Stempa or they lose that market. And frankly, the Cresians seem to be too well-defended, and the Ta'jinn too distant for counter-attacks (so far, at least).

But before the messengers can reach their captains, telling them to sell defences to Stempa, the survivors of the destroyed city have spread to other states and begun to spread an anti-war sentiment - for the very good reason that they're now caught in the middle of a very big conflict. This isn't going anywhere soon, but in a few years of eternal war, I see the Stempans getting sick of this and calling it quits with their own internal war, then going to scout out Ausel itself - and possibly blowing this thing wide open.

EDIT: Tonguez got there first. Who says the war has to go on immediately? A generational war, ignited every so often by petty intrigues or vengeance plots, or even the Auselen manipulating someone, could last a hundred years and prove fertile ground for many a tactic. Or not, but does anyone else feel we've finished Round 3? 'Cause I'm itching to throw a monkey in the works for Round 4...


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## Robbert Raets (Mar 13, 2003)

So should someone start a new thread? Can we expect major technological, magical or cultural developments in the time skipped?


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## Morgenstern (Mar 13, 2003)

First note- I really like the idea of incorperating several types of humanoids inot the Stempa civilization- goblin along with the ogres, and possibly hobgoblins. I can see a general belief that if it's humanoid, and can manage to remeber it's own name, then it can partake in Stempa. Still, citizenship, the right to be heard in council, and full protection under the law should be limted. Any race can (and does) achieve it, but the percentage may be weighted slightly in the favor of humans. Service in the military for a certain period might be one road to citizenship... Strengthening the moral of the armies. Success in the priesthood might be another.

In any event, I would look towards the following conditions comming out of this round.

Stempa ends up serving as the battleground for a while due to Ausel meddling. While not destroyed, they are greviously setback, and will provide little more than moral support and perhaps a few elite (and expensive) city-sponsored mercenary units, whose contract fees go towards resotoring that particular city. The Ausel make damn sure to arrange for the costal powers to be particularly ravaged (covering their own backs).

Tired of war with little gain, and recieving the offers of the High Priestess, the Ta'Jinn khan accepts the offer of peace. The Ta'jinn return to their own affairs. Shortly before the outset of the next round (see below) they are invaded from an entirely different direction by a cabal of harpies and their controled minions. The Ta'jinn will largely sit the next round out.

The Cressians gain a growing understanding of the commonality between themselves and the Ta'jinn, despite their rocky start. Suspicious of how far back the now obvious Ausel manipulation might run, they sue for peace, and then turn their attention to te Ausel after a suitable amount of time to recover.

I propose to call this round a draw we should have seen comming- the forces were too evenly matched, and nothing in their make-up really contributed to a sufficiently deep an abiding hatred for one another, the cornerstone of protracted battle.

The Cressians have ships. They've neglected them as a tool for war for many years, but haven't forgotten.

Lets look forward to a new round without such a neat balance of forces. Cressia is bigger, but wishes to attack over sea. Ausel has _much_ better magic (1-2 level higher), flexibility, and several dragons hidden behind the throne. Both sides *really* hate each other. And a variety of Stempa mercenaries are hanging around waiting to be hired because they really need the money to rebuild their home cities.

Sound worth exploring in a new thread?


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## Robbert Raets (Mar 13, 2003)

Do you want to keep the discussion of the Stempan Military/Mercenary set-up for the new thread or make it up here/now?


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## Tonguez (Mar 13, 2003)

Robbert Raets said:
			
		

> *So should someone start a new thread? Can we expect major technological, magical or cultural developments in the time skipped? *




1. Nah I say we just post a new round in this thread - and see just how long a thread can get before the Server explodes

2. The Ta'Jinn/Cressia conflict took place at about the late bronze/early iron age equivalent on Earth and saw a number of inovations being introduced and most of the major technologies of civilisation being at least 'known' (ie City building, Roading, Wheel, Sail, Metal Work, Agriculture, Domestic animals, Religion and Civil Society as well as Divine and Arcane Magics). We now have the chance to advance the societies somewhat the question is how?

I personally don't see anything like the Dark Ages or Medieval Society arising from the cultures we have presented here and that is a dilemma (or is it?) The DnD Standard is a pseudo-medieval-type world but are we likely to get that? Should we impose artificial conditions to make the Medieval setting happen or should we take this in some other direction?

Hmm - Anyway next Round: Iron Age - Romance of the Three Kingdoms


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## GladiusNP (Mar 13, 2003)

Moving on does seem to be worthwhile - someone mentioned bigger monsters just attempting to top the other side, and that would eventually be a dead end (ie. when the Ausel sell Cressia the Tarrasque.)  

Anyway, maybe the Field Father makes his point very brutally - he strips the high druidess of her spells.  She journeys to the Huntmasters of the Cressian forces encamped on the border, and reveals what she has learned - the zombies are an abomination, something confirmed by the Stempan clerics.  The last two are destroyed by the Cressians.  

Also I liked the point that the Ta'Jinn hate outsiders - especially the Heaven River troops - they just threw off the rule of demon-worshippers.  If they learn that the earth elementals are extra-planar, the Ausel aren't going to be too popular.  I think that Thelia should probably be destroyed - the Ta'Jinn aren't into annihilation (they liberated Heaven River), and the viciousness of the Ausel raiders unleashed into the city sicken the Ta'Jinn.  Also ties up any loose ends via the Stempan cities - leaving them much more united, now they've seen what their religious wars can really do.  The Ausel are politely told by the Ta'Jinn their services are no longer required.

Moving forward?  I don't really have many suggestions.  I can picture the Ausel and Stempa (aided by the Cressians) keeping up a naval border, with occasional raids again from the Ausel.  This common bond, along with proximity, makes the Cressians and Stempans get along pretty well. The Cressians are going to pretty much keep to their current borders, and the Ta'Jinn are poised develop trade routes from the Heaven River to Cressia and vice versa.  

Maybe we should take the window out another step further.  What are the other four Tamarchs up to?  What other lands do the Ta'Jinn rule?  What is north of the Stempans - maybe real barabarians (like the goths to the north of Rome).  Let's chuck in some demi-humans, and also make sure that writing becomes a part of the civilizations. Sorry if this is redundant with any posts above - a little tired.


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Mar 13, 2003)

There are a few things that I would like to see as we move into the next round.

First: a list of the innovations that each of the cultures acquired from this round on line with the list of cultural qualities we created for this round.  Something like:

Cressians: indirect fire, dispersed mobility, aerial power, inclement weather fighting, anti-magic warfare

Ta'jinn: silvered weapons, terrain holding outposts, increased siege sophisitication, dispersed use of magic, night fighting, anti-magic warfare

Second: a system of cultural exchange between the Ta'jinn, Cressians, and Stempans.  I'd like to see the Ta'jinn and Cressians develop a dwarf-elf style relationship where they are alternately friendly and antagonistic but always  helping each other out in times of great stress.  The Stempans could simply end up trading with both great powers and with garrisons and auxilaries in all the nations and in their nation.

Third: a real state of chaos created in the no-man's land between Cressia and the Khanate.   Not only was this the site of the massive three way battle between Cressian, the Auselen, and the Ta'jinn, but the area has been flooded with refugees from Auselen action in Stempa and warping magical energies from the Auselen themselves.

Fourth: a political understanding between the three cultures against the Auselen.

After the Auselen role was uncovered by the Stempans and the Ta'jinn and Cressians reached a state of peace the major powers discovered that they had the following powers.  Firstly, Stempa was in terrible shape.  While the allies of Cressia and the Khanate were still free they had been drained by the war and with the exception of those states most closely associated with oracles who had provided them with prudent leadership the rest were either in states of internal disorder fostered by the Auselen or directly under their control.  The empty quarter was in a state of total chaos that threatens all of the three landlocked powers.  And all of the powers are agreed that they must rebuild and discover a means to deal with each other and Auselen.

The remaining free and stable states of Stempa form the Concord of Stempa which ends internal feuding between them while maintaining most of the soveriegnty of the individual states.  This concord is heavily dominated by the oracles though the allied states of the Khanate and Cressia also possess some influence.  All three states then form a joint command in Stempa in which the Oracles have a priveleged position as the neutral party and the party to have suffered most and earliest discovered the truth of the war.  This command works to shape policy to check the aggression of the other Stempan states and to create security in the Empty Quarter.  

The Ta'jinn devote a Tamarch to the alliance, half of which is dedicated to patrolling the empty quarter and the other half of which is put under Cressian command as a reperation for the war, as the stronger power with a sense of mission the Ta'jinn do feel at fault, and to help the Cressians develop a means by which to hurt the Auselen.   The Cressians work to develop fortified borders around the empty quarter for all parties and also send some men to work with the Khanate as a form of reperation.   The Stempans work with all powers and establish outposts inside the quarter as a means to try to help their people in the area and watch the Auselen outposts that have also taken root. 

Love the suggestion about Stempa as a diverse culture, and the deities of the Cressians finally stepping in to end the conflict.

Sorry about the convoluted means of keeping the Ta'jinn around.  I just want to see how their tactics would respond to the second round as well.


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## The Goblin King (Mar 14, 2003)

I think it would be cool to keep going without forcing the world into a pseudo-middle age.  However, I'm not sure how to proceed.  What would this alternate history look like without the roman empire?  I don't think the Stempa are up to the job.  The other nations are too strong to be subjucated, even if the Stempa had the inclination.


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Mar 14, 2003)

Oh Yeah, we are way far away from the Middle Ages.  I was thinking that this last conflict might have been middle to late bronze age.

Talking Egyptians versus Hittites and Minoans versus Myceneans sort of stuff.

There's forever to go till you hit the iron age and Classical Greece and Persia let alone Rome and then the Middle Ages.


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## s/LaSH (Mar 14, 2003)

Yup, we're still talking about a small-scale, early civilisation scenario here. The area of conflict is barely a thousand miles across, remember; I've always thought of it as being similar to western Turkey (look on a map sometime, I think the distances roughly match up). Empires could spring up on the other side of the world right now and not be seen for two thousand years in this area.

What interests me are the other Planes. The Prime Material is the home for this event, but the Auselen have already started poking around in Elemental Earth (and have probably known of Elemental Fire even longer). The planes will be of great tactical importance later, I'm certain - especially when political forces on the Prime discover political forces in the multiverse. Good and Evil haven't really come into it, so far, not as huge cosmic forces, but boy, when they do...

(And my ominously gestating idea for the next round really plays upon that idea.)


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Mar 14, 2003)

Recall that the Ta'jinn and the people of the Celestial River have dealt with demons in their prior history.

I would also love to see the work on Stempan military forces continue.  If they have a fair mix of humanoids in their population they can field some very heavy infantry and be good night attackers.  

Did we decide whether or not the Stempans have mastered some rudimentary iron work?

I'm thinking they should have access to heavy armor at the very least.  Probably banded or splint mail and certainly chest plates and other simple plate armors.

Cressians have some studded leather, leather, breast plate, and hide.  Ta'jinn have scale, quilted, and breast plate.

Have any of these cultures developed chain mail yet?  The Celts had it pretty early, but even that is iron age.


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## Mr. Draco (Mar 14, 2003)

Well, I just found this thread, and finished reading it (wow, that took a while).

If it's not too late, I wanted to point out a viable, and possibly very effective tactic for the Ta'jinn against the Cressians.  (iirc- the stempa were really into alchemy as one of their advantages)

So, the Ta'jinn buy/steal/take from the Stempa an alchemical secret: alchemists fire.  This substance can be put in vials where it won't ignite, then, if thrown, breaks and lights things on fire.  Also, it's very difficult to put out (as any proper self-respecting, burning jelly will be).  In a flash of inspiration, the Ta'jinn develop a startlingly effective new tactic: bombers.

Handing out many (between 10-20) vials of the alchemists fire to each Godsblood, they send them out in groups to attack Cressian cities.  Each group has 3 Godsblood riders with shortbows, and 2 with the alchemists fire ammunition.  The 3 with shortbows help protect the "bombers" from both ground attack, and the Cressian giant eagles.  As a plus, the giant eagles can't engage at range, and even then are still at a disadvantage due to inexperience fighting other aerial foes.  Likewise the Cressian ground forces, being experienced at throwing spears/shooting bows at ground targets are pretty much out of luck against griffon riders hundreds of feet up.  Then, when the griffon riders fly over a fairly major Cressian city, they dump all the alchemists fire vials and head back to the Ta'jinn camps.  From the number of Griffons, I'd say that there could be two such "groups" of 5 Griffons with Godsblood riders, with enough left over to still hold up a good scouting force.

From the looks of Cressian society, they'd have a hard time fighting these fires.  Firstly, they have a cultural aversion to fire, meaning they'd be much less experienced at dealing with it than the Jongans in the last round.  Besides just this, their primary building material is... wood.  Wood burns.  Wood burns faster when there's a bunch of undergrowth in the area.  Cressia has a bunch of undergrowth.  Offhand, I'd say that the Cressians would be very quickly looking at major brushfires where a few of the biggest cities used to be.  This would cause chaos amongst the Cressian forces fighting the Ta'jinn, and even worse effects would be visible within the populace, who now no longer know when they're safe, even in their homes.  After all, any moment now, fire might fall from the sky, burning their city like the others.

Major advantage: Ta'jinn.

This success leads to the Ta'jinn focusing on improving and consolidating their control of the skies.


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## Mr. Draco (Mar 14, 2003)

Another quick note:  The Ta'jinn notice their biggest advantages are their maneuverability, whether it's their Griffon/Godsblood riders, or Centaurs, the one thing the Cressians can't match is their sheer speed.  This would lead to the development of quick response teams, of say a couple of griffons/godsblood riders with alchemists fire, or teams of elite centaurs.  Their high speeds would let them quickly get to areas that need defense, or even intercept the attacking Cressian forces before they even reached the Ta'jinn main battle lines.  Meanwhile, while the attack is being stalled by the quick response forces, Ta'jinn units are moving into the fight, quickly brining even the numerical odds in favor of the Ta'jinn and winning the day.  As for the Cressian plant-growth/rose bush lined homeland, well, alchemists fire works on that too.

I see the Cressians being burned out, quickly and efficently.


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## Tonguez (Mar 14, 2003)

Mr. Draco said:
			
		

> *Another quick note:  The Ta'jinn notice their biggest advantages are their maneuverability, whether it's their Griffon/Godsblood riders, or Centaurs, the one thing the Cressians can't match is their sheer speed.  This would lead to the development of quick response teams, of say a couple of griffons/godsblood riders with alchemists fire, or teams of elite centaurs.  Their high speeds would let them quickly get to areas that need defense, or even intercept the attacking Cressian forces before they even reached the Ta'jinn main battle lines.  Meanwhile, while the attack is being stalled by the quick response forces, Ta'jinn units are moving into the fight, quickly brining even the numerical odds in favor of the Ta'jinn and winning the day.  As for the Cressian plant-growth/rose bush lined homeland, well, alchemists fire works on that too.
> 
> I see the Cressians being burned out, quickly and efficently. *




Actually the Cressians have the Manouverability advantage not the Ta'Jinn. A Centaurs base speed is 50 however a Werewolf (Deltanes) base speed is also 50 and a Barbarian at 40 is only slightly slower. The deciding factor here however is size Centaurs as large Creatures are bigger targets and thus easier to hit. +1 Cressians

Your development of Griffon Bombers however is a brillaint tactic  (and shows the value of new blood) and bound to be absolutely devestating to Cressia until such time as they develop weather control magics - they already have Fog and have used Wind at least once historically (now gimme a Cloudkill and a few whirlwinds too)

*Age of the Empires*

iirc correctly the Cressia-Ta'Jinn conflict took place in something equivalent to the late bronze era 1000 BC on Earth. After the rise of the first urban civilisations but before the widespread use of iron (sort of the era covered in the Scorpion King movie)

If we go forward a step to say about 500 BC this puts us firmly into the 'Classical' period - Sidhartha Gautama (Buddha) is born in 563 BC; Athens has developed Democracy, the Warring States period occurs in China and the Jews have returned from the Babylonian Exile. Babylon itself is conquered by Persia and the Persian Empire goes on to conquer Egypt but fails to take Greece at the
Battle of Marathon in 490BC 

(ps read this for a good summary of military tactics for the era viz



> The Persians had a massive infantry and cavalry which included 48,000 men, outnumbering the Athenians 4:1.
> 
> Despite the fact that the Persians were the striking army, their fighting style was defensive.  Their main weapon was the bow and arrow, and their key tactic was to wait until the enemy came close, at which time the Persians would “bury” them a heavy barrage of bows and arrows.  The Athenians, on the other hand, had a more offensive doctrine.  Their main weapon was the long, heavy spear, and they shielded themselves with heavy armament including helmets, shields, and breastplates.  They favored close combat battle formations, lacking both cavalry and bows.



)

Oh yeah
The Olympics was started in 776 BC - perhaps the Stempa-Cressian-Ta'Jinn alliance hold a four yearly competiton as a means of maintaining peaceful relations between themselves!.

And I say give the Stempans Iron


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Mar 14, 2003)

Oh man, the classical period...  ...noone ever wants to do the Assyrian and Babylonian empires.

I mean, how big a skip we gonna have hear when only one power has good iron and there has gotta be a good conflict coming in the next century at least, even if all the powers do think they have thrown the Auselen into the sea.

The Ta'jinn v. Cressians both have maneuverability edges in the right terrain.   The Ta'jinn are superior in any sort of open terrain because they're used to fighting in flying formations, but the Cressians are consequently much better in rough areas thanks to very broken up formations.

Hadn't realized speed was that close between the armies, however, I didn't think the Barbarians and deltanes represented the majority of the Cressian forces.  We might have seen them gain an increased role as a result of the conflict and a possible increased professionalization on the part of the Cressian forces.

The bombing thing works pretty well except that the Cressians are very aware of the vulnerability to fire as a result of the Jongan conflict.  They now design their cities with plenty of fire breaks and waterways.  They're still very distrustful of fire, but they are also a lot more savvy about how to deal with it.

This last round didn't see nearly the level of spell development we saw last time.  As far as I can tell the only really new developments were more divination and illusion spells from every side.

I'd like to posit that the Stempans pick up turning as a result of dealing with zombies in their territories.


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## Morgenstern (Mar 14, 2003)

Stempa did indeed have iron at the outset of this conflict. Given that Cressia does not care for fire, and the Ta'jinn smithing technology tends to be fairly small and portable fine for silver and bronze, not so good for iron) I would sugest the Stempa jealously guards the secrets fo manufacture for their supperior arms and armor (making smiths, miners and smelters sort of a state secret), but _sells_ such items to the other two empires in small quantities at high prices to finance their reconstructions efforts. This also continues to provide a huge incentive to hire Stempan merc units: commanders of Cressia and Ta'jinn might have an iron weapon or breastplate, but the Stempa "Iron Guard" (or whatever) are whole units of iron equiped soldiers- soldiers that include human swordsmen, goblin picket/scouts, and Ogre heavy infantry (I'm sorry, does the idea of a vaguely disciplined, iron-plated, battle axe or large kopesh weilding *OGRE* fail to scare the piss out of any common troop available in this age?). The crunched up remants of Stempa banding together and forming a more complex and solidly united system of governance is also a great idea (citizens of individual cities are elected by their peers to go to the big meet of all surviving cities, and an informal senate begins to brew...).

I like the idea of an exchange of forces between Cressia and Ta'jinn. The (brilliant) introdction of Ta'jinn bombers whould probably result in at least one Cressian city getting savagely scorched. This could provide the impetus for the reparations after the war. The "Pact Army" of a Ta'jinn tamarch may actually be the first step towards a more fuedal system inthis world: this army is at the service of Cressia, but it has it's own commander(s) and will need a formidable amount of space and/or suplies to remain active- Cressia may have to assign some land within their borders to the Ta'jinn commander's care (still tended by the expert Field Father clergy) so that he can feed his force. The concept of the first 'county' is born...

A sort of olympics, where each country can send champions to strut their stuff is also plausible, with inital efforts being non-competitive displays (we can do this!) turn into closely controlled sports (we can too, see!) with probably fairly militant based events- marthon/forced march, aerial acrobatics, maybe some swimming in the river and equestrian events. But this is mor world building than actual tactics (the focus of the thread).

We do need a list of advances, and I think we can still play this as a Cressian vs Ausel conflict, with some few Stempa and Ta'jinn units remaing involved. The 500 BC timeframe sounds good to me, noting that certain groups are a bit more advanced within their specialties- Stempa and their iron, Ta'jinn navigation and communication, Cressian horticulture. Everybody has some flavor of magic to draw on, but Ausel is flat out the superpower in the arcane category.

I'm uncertain whether we should just nail down the setup for a following round here, or play the full round here just to keep this thread fresh...

Always a pleasure,


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Mar 14, 2003)

I agree on Cressia with Ta'jinn and Stempan units and communities as the protagonist in the next example.  

Let's say that the whole area, with the exception of Auselen views itself as a single cultural unit centered around Cressia, something analogous to the Greek sphere in the Eastern Mediterranean or the Sumerian States and City States.  The Khanate is still out there, but considers Cressia a solid ally and allows the Cressians to pretty much run things in that area of the world though they keep in contact and still do a lot to maintain their Tamarch.

Lower Cressia consists of Cressia proper, the Jongan isles, and some other territories that the Cressians have been able to expand their true culture into over time.

Upper Cressia consists of the territories of the Cressian Stempan allies and the Concord.  This area maintains a distinctly Stempan feel, but the Oracles have been brought into the Cressian hierarchy with very little problems.  They maintain a strong sense of their own borders but also feel free fully participatory in the culture and soveriegnty of Cressia as a whole.  There are a lot of ancient analogies for this sort of relationship, but I like to think of them as a more culturally divergent and independent version of Quebec.  The Concord now dominates the majority of Stempa. The many independent cities very much realize that if they want to get business done they must go through the concord and eventually Cressia.  Actually, a better example would be pre-Bruce Scotland only without all the bitter sort of William Wallace types around.

Lesser Cressia, or the Empty Quarter, consists of the empty quarter and a signficant portion of what had been the sparesly populated near border of the Khanate.  Now populated by the resident Tamarch and a bizarre melange of the three other cultures.  The inhabitants refer to themselves as the new people and to the communities as the colonies.  They have strong ties to both the Khanate and Cressia, but feel that in most things the Cressians and the Hierarchy are perfectly able to act with the Khan's authority.   The local Tamarch has actually become a more or less permanent fixture and well the practice of transferring units into and out of the Tamarch is not unknown and certain portions of the command structure are still very Ta'jinn in nature the majority of the officers and the rank and file are chosen by the locals and the Cressians and then approved by the Khanate.  All requests for transfers out and in must be similarly approved.   As a result of the permanent presence of the Tamarch the local culture has become very militant.  Those who serve in the Tamarch are granted special privileges and have greater wealth resulting in a true aristocracy of military merit.   The Tamarch itself has absorbed fighting elements and tactics from all three cultures and then adjusted them to the unusual land of the region creating one of the most innovative and various permanent fighting units in the world.

Portions of the Tamarch are always in action in both Cressia and the Khanate.

The Games, hailed and seen as a great meeting of the cultures, occur in the empty quarter outside of the memorial city of (someone come up with a name here, some combination of the names of the ravaged Stempan and Cressian cities).  The memorial stands as a monument to the war, the subsequent treaties, and the expulsion of the Auselen from the Empty quarter.  The hierarch, chief oracle, and Khan meet here from time to time and all maintain a premanent diplomatic force and beauracracy headed by a council of a bishop, seer, and uncle authorized to interpret treaties, call meetings, act as the political lords of the Tamarch, and organize the games.


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## Robbert Raets (Mar 14, 2003)

I really like Dr. Strangemonkey's description of the colonies & resident tamarch.

What about the Stempan Military? Have the city-states integrated their armies into a single Legion? How big should the units be and how is the racial division? 50/50 goblinoids/humans with a small number of Ogres? 35/60/5?


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Mar 14, 2003)

Yeah, I can easily see the house guards of the oracles being united into a single organization and then expanded into the Concord legion.  Large garrisons would be housed in each of the major cities and encamped around the oraclur enclosures.  Individual cities would still have military might, but the Legion is seen as the national and more prestigious force.  As the concord has developed and quelled internal conflict, the urban militaries now function primarily as mercenary organizations training and hiring out young men and soldiers to other nations and for work in the wilder parts of Stempa.   These troops then function as reserves for the nation and the pool that the legion recruits many of its combat units from.   One advantage the legion has over other military organizations in Greater Cressia is it's experience with police work and occupation.   As the militant arm of the Oracles they are in charge of enforcing the laws of the Concord and saw their first extended actions in the Concord's work to pacify the empty quarter.


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## The Goblin King (Mar 15, 2003)

Here is a quick map.  Sorry there are no other features.  I will put them in but I just wanted a rough idea of where everything was.  I did not know how big to make the region.  What do you think?


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## Tonguez (Mar 15, 2003)

Nice Map

However I'd personally put more water between Auselen and Cressia probably placing it where you currently have Madziz

So more blue and move Madziz around closer to Kalariand

I also wondering if the Ice is too close to fertile Cressia - then again I may be getting the scale wrong (but that makes Ta'jinn huge if I am)...


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## s/LaSH (Mar 15, 2003)

Map critiques: (Other than these, it's pretty cool.)

I always thought Stempa was where Ta'jinn is, and vice versa.

The ice wouldn't be that close to Cresia, in truth. Cresia's supposed to be similar to northern Italy, which is around 1500 miles from the arctic circle. Worlds are big things, and so far we haven't seen much of this one.

Other than that - reduce the ice, and we've got a fairly good map.


So it looks like the war's died down, right? The technologies we've acquired from it are:

Both Cresia and Ta'jinn have an air force now. The Ta'jinn griffins have spellcasters/bombers as riders, while I think the Cresians mostly use archers.

The deltanes are no longer used as shock troops, as both sides have figured out that they're vulnerable to certain special weapons. They're still awesome in small conflicts, and in a straight ground troop conflict the deltanes will win against vastly overwhelming numbers.

Two cities have been destroyed, a Stempan city by earth elementals, and a Cresian city by firebombs. The Stempans can't bring themselves to abandon their philosophy of heavy fortifications, and instead research ways to enchant their fortresses to resist magic, on the way becoming the supreme manufacturers of magic arms and armour. The Cresians establish aerial defence forces in all their cities, with regular patrols over the countryside, incidentally creating a really efficient system of disseminating information, cementing their government's ability to govern a large area effectively. And they start building these huge overhead stone shield things.

The Auselen discovered how easy it is to prey upon peoples' weaknesses to turn a profit. They also discovered how much havoc one or two really powerful creatures can wreak in a combat situation.

The Cresians still don't really object to the idea of zombies. After all, there haven't been any insane necromancers threatening to destroy the world, no plagues of undead rampaging through communities.

We never saw one thing, however: Call Lightning. It's a signature druid spell, only 3rd level, and capable of wreaking lots of havoc. Can we assume that the Cresians developed it in the last weeks of the war, and were threatening to use it on Ta'jinn interests? A vertical stroke can strike behind city walls, after all (long range). That would give the Stempans reason enough to sue everyone for peace, I'm certain. (It also gives the Cresians a weapon equal to the Ta'jinn bombers, and can blast earth elementals into little bits.) A staggered bombardment of even minimum caster level druids... well, that's five 5d10 20ft-wide blasts apiece, over a 50-minute period. Get ten level 5 druids, and you can unleash one blast every minute, ravaging quite a big area. Get sixty druids, and you can unleash one staggered bolt every round for the best part of an hour - at one spell expended per druid. Isn't that a great weapon?

The Auselen won't be pleased at this, of course. Maybe they're the ones who taught the Stempa to make enchanted walls? Planning to ignite a new conflict in a generation... but I have a great idea for something to interfere with this. Hehehe.


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## The Goblin King (Mar 16, 2003)

s/LaSH said:
			
		

> *
> Both Cresia and Ta'jinn have an air force now. The Ta'jinn griffins have spellcasters/bombers as riders, while I think the Cresians mostly use archers.
> 
> The Cresians establish aerial defence forces in all their cities, with regular patrols over the countryside, incidentally creating a really efficient system of disseminating information, cementing their government's ability to govern a large area effectively. And they start building these huge overhead stone shield things.*




I was thinking along those lines.  There would finally be a reason for a druid to have lots of small animal companions.  Eagles that are trained to follow intruders but not engage.  When they see something being dropped on a city they go into a dive and catch it before it hits the ground.  Also, Giant Eagles exist.  The next logical step is for the Cressians to have a few Rocs.  As far as I could tell, it would be possible to mount Rocs with a fighting platform similar to what indian elephants used.


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## s/LaSH (Mar 16, 2003)

I like the roc idea... I was considering the idea of war elephants earlier, and the rocs make more sense, making this a very weird version of the Bronze Age indeed. They'd probably need Auselen held to engineer or find these beasts, though.


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## The Goblin King (Mar 16, 2003)

s/LaSH said:
			
		

> *I like the roc idea... I was considering the idea of war elephants earlier, and the rocs make more sense, making this a very weird version of the Bronze Age indeed. They'd probably need Auselen held to engineer or find these beasts, though. *




I was thinking the Cressians would get some help from Egard.  He is also known as Lord of the Sky, Patron Spirit of Birds, and Father of Eagles.  I'm sure a quest would be involved but an alliance would be beneficial to both parties.  The Cressians would gain flying allies and Egard would gain human worshipers.


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## Tonguez (Mar 16, 2003)

As s/LAsh probably knows the Giant Eagle is a real (now extinct)animal which once flew through New Zealand Skies



> The giant eagle was endemic to New Zealand. Its wingspan measured up to three metres and its talons (claws) were about 7.5cm long




Okay so not quite the MM giant eagle but impressive none the less and apparently able to left a small adult.

I'd say that the 'Roc' could in fact be the celestial form of these giant eagles and tie-in nicely with the Cressians extant Celestial Dogs (which btw we still haven't used!)


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## s/LaSH (Mar 16, 2003)

Oh, before I forget: I kept meaning to mention that Stempan ogre troops reminded me of something on my own site. Go here: http://dungeondamage.keenspace.com/d/20030309.html and read forward. Basically there's an ogre in my webcomic, and although there's plot involved you don't really need to know it to appreciate the ogre itself.

And for some reason I'm impressed that Goblin King with 5 posts has brought the thread up to 200 posts total. This is freaky big.


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## s/LaSH (Mar 16, 2003)

Tonguez said:
			
		

> *As s/LAsh probably knows the Giant Eagle is a real (now extinct)animal which once flew through New Zealand Skies
> 
> Okay so not quite the MM giant eagle but impressive none the less and apparently able to left a small adult.
> 
> I'd say that the 'Roc' could in fact be the celestial form of these giant eagles and tie-in nicely with the Cressians extant Celestial Dogs (which btw we still haven't used!) *




Very big creatures. They hunted moa, which are also extinct, probably due to human depredation, but the largest species of moa were bigger than any bird currently alive, rivaling the elephant birds of Madagascar - also extinct, and (some surmise) the inspiration for Sinbad's tales of the roc in the first place.

And I'm not certain of this, but their plumage might have been green and white and orange, similar to the kea, predaceous mountain parrots from the same region, which would look very cool. (I saw a gang of kea working very hard at destroying a motorbike once, way down in Milford Sound. Funny birds.)


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## GladiusNP (Mar 16, 2003)

When I was in Wellington over Christmas, I think I actually saw one of the eagles you guys are talking about (or rather, a model of one).  Is there one in the museum Te Papa?

In a more OT note, Roc's carrying Deltane troopers could be very cool - sort of like an armored transport chopper.  In regard to celestial dogs, couldn't they pull Chariots? (Yes, I'm back on to these) I'm thinking like an Inuit dog-team - they would be more resistant to magic than horses, and could hold their own pretty well.  The only real problem I see is the amount of harness/traces - might be slightly impractical.  What are we doing for the bad guys.


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## The Goblin King (Mar 17, 2003)

Here is another crack at a map.  I added the River of Heaven and the Isle of Jhonga.  Auselen is about 8 days sail from the mainland.


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## The Goblin King (Mar 17, 2003)

here it is


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## s/LaSH (Mar 17, 2003)

GladiusNP: I've only been to Te Papa once, years ago, so I couldn't possibly comment. Heck, it's eight minutes walk from the comic shop! I don't have that kind of time!

As for bad guys... that all depends on what you define as 'bad', now, doesn't it? Do you want my pitch for a scenario? Well, here it is, but be warned: this is where history and our scenarios diverge. It's just something that has to happen in any D&D world.

Remember the emphasis that the Jongan conflict placed on summoned creatures? Or the Jinn ousting the demonic rulers of the Heaven River three hundred years ago? Or the Auselen creating undead and elemental armies? Well, humans have been poking around in the outer planes for a while now. *What happens when the planes poke back?*

(I've always wanted to do this...)

It's two  hundred years later. The Ta'jinn and the Cresians have kept, more or less, to a cold sort of peace, but their frontiers are occasionally wracked by unsanctioned raiders, commonly employing Auselen technology (creatures, devices, spells) (which, incidentally, prompts yet another purchase from the attacked party to counter the new threat).

The Auselen like this scenario. It doesn't impoverish their source of funds by killing them all, but it keeps them in the forefront of military contracting. They've created huge vessels that can endure any sea, intended for shipping live cargo. They've explored other lands, and come back with elephants, rhinos, and other weird creatures that nobody's seen yet.

The annual Memorial Games are to be held in a month's time, with teams from Cresia and Ta'jinn competing; a number of naturalised jinn centaurs compete for Cresia, so nobody complains about the sprinting events. At the Memorial Games, Cresia intends to give a stirring (or frightening) demonstration of its new roc-borne troop assault force, a closely-kept secret developed over the past few years, as a counter to the Ta'jinn Thousand Golem Brigade demonstrated four years beforehand (and purchased at great price from Auselen). Mobility versus invulnerability, really.

Auselen, however, has different plans. A rift has developed between the biomancers and the metalomancers; the biomancers have costly initial investments, but their produce is then self-sustaining. The metalomancers, on the other hand, have to pay XP for every unit they manufacture, and they fear they'll fall behind. The solution? A total war.

Right now, the metalomancers have the edge with flesh and clay golems being cutting-edge. The biomancers don't have the numbers of bio creations to rival them yet, and won't for another decade. And, fearing the awesome fallout from a war on Ausel itself, the logical scheme is to ignite a massive war on the mainland, going back to the origins of the Accords of Helg - but not letting the conflict stop this time. This time, both Cresia and Ta'jinn will smash each other to bits, and when they're both gone, the metalomancers will have the most cash, thus winning.

This makes sense once you realise that the Auselen elders have experimented on themselves so far that they're now full dragons. Their minds are warped, and their bodies are more powerful than anything else on the planet.

The scheme? Launch unprovoked attacks from both sides simultaneously, destroying the Memorial Games. First, on the night before the Games, a Dominated minion will slaughter the Ta'jinn athletes while they sleep. The Auselen have their own werewolf to do this for them.

Second, when this is discovered in the morning, a griffin patrol swoops over the city and blasts it with fireballs. Again, the Auselen have both spell-slingers and griffins (they did, after all, manufacture them in the first place, right?).

Now all they have to do is sneak these forces into the Memorial City before the games begin. The ships are launched, the illusions practiced, and they'll be there within the month.

But...

Shortly after the ships reach the shore of Cresia, and unload their carts filled with 'straw. Nothing but straw. Move along', something nasty happens.

Ausel itself is invaded from an unknown vector. The Summoners, a third and minor faction amongst the lords, wake up one morning to find their city in the shadow of a titanic fortress. It wasn't there the night before, yet today it reaches to the clouds - it's nearly a mile high, featureless, a great iron cube slowly settling into the ground. Strange lights flare occasionally between the plates of its walls. The staccatto march of inhuman feet can be heard echoing through its halls.

You see, the Summoners had recently discovered this great creature. It was nearly mindless, it wasn't particularly tough, and a triplet of them could fix damaged objects in an instant with magical synergy. Hundreds of the creatures were bound to Ausel, servitors doing menial work. That was all right by them; after all, formian workers are used to that.

But the Queens didn't like it. Their workers were vanishing; in small numbers, true, for their empire had 'enlightened' hundreds of worlds to the path of pure law in their million-year history, and their population was measured in the trillions. Nevertheless, they reasoned, this could be a new gambit on the part of some other force - the slaad, perhaps, or those busy-body eladrins trying to promote some cause of 'freedom'. So they set up a trace and sent a battle fortress to analyse the problem.

The fortress is unlike anything the world has dealt with so far. Its walls are a steel alloy, one foot thick; its interior is filled with bizarre engines and magical chambers; and it has five hundred stories. In all, there are maybe twelve million inhabitants in this fortress, although only five hundred thousand of them are warriors; the rest are workers or slaves from other planes - animals, humanoids, celestials and infernals alike, largely useless in combat. There are fifty thousand taskmasters and five thousand myrmachs on board. About the only thing humans don't have to worry about is the fortress moving; it's only capable of shifting across the planes, not space itself, being built on another plane by billions of workers in a matter of days and then transported fully-laden by powerful mages (formian queens with class levels).

The formian mission: Find out what happened to the missing workers. Resolve this situation. Secondary objectives: Increase the Rule of Law across the multiverse. Reinforcements are unlikely once the situation is reported as 'just another case of humanoids'. 

The Auselen problem: They have a formian nest in their heartland, they're outnumbered, and their most powerful units are tempting targets for the formian taskmasters.

The complication: They just set their only potential allies leaping into a mutually destructive war. (While it hasn't happened yet, it's in motion.)

Spell levels up to 8, mainland population grown to double its previous size. Rare monster units available to all sides, including the formians. The Auselen have just had a crash course in the existance of other planes, and the Powers that rule them. How will the world be saved? Or won't it?

How's this sound?


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## Drakmar (Mar 17, 2003)

it sounds a bit too much like the Borg.  I personally think it would be better to keep the flavour of a fantasy world rather than a sci-fi one and have some other country from across the sea invade with some other technology/advantage.  

Personally.. I think that a fleet of rowing ships, manned by hundreds of skeletal warriors would be more in keeping with the orginal concept behind this thread... have some powerful necromancers/lichs etc turn up.

you would have..
Undead
Incorpreal creatures.
Energy Drain (abhorent to the Cressians)

and it could lead to a Dracolich.. a very bad thing


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## Tonguez (Mar 17, 2003)

s/LaSH said:
			
		

> *GladiusNP: I've only been to Te Papa once, years ago, so I couldn't possibly comment. Heck, it's eight minutes walk from the comic shop! I don't have that kind of time!
> 
> As for bad guys... that all depends on what you define as 'bad', now, doesn't it? Do you want my pitch for a scenario? Well, here it is, but be warned: this is where history and our scenarios diverge. It's just something that has to happen in any D&D world.
> 
> ...




Personally I like it  But I do we agree with Drakmar that we need to ensure it doesn't get too Sci-Fi and totally whackout the whole progress of the thread. Personally speaking I think the movie 'Krull' mixed this concept of the Sci-Fi Megafortress and a Fantasy world effectively (and the Premise of Stargate could work to). So if we keep this more Krull than Borg we should be okay...

I also could go for the Necromancer Invasion too - so hey I'm easy


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## The Goblin King (Mar 17, 2003)

This scenario sounds okay.  I had pondered a demon invasion but it seemed too cliche.  The tower does not have to be a big cube.  Any shape is possible as long as it is composed of repeating geometric shapes.  So no curves but you could have a hexagonal shaped tower.

I was also thinking about a 'final solution' for the Auselen problem.  The Earthquake spell was developed by the Stempa but items enchanted with it were purchased by the Cressians.  The plan would be for aquatic druids to cast Earthquake at specific points on the ocean floor at the same time creating a tidal wave.  So far it has not been considered because of the loss of innocent life.  If the island is lost they could wipe the outsiders from the face of the earth.


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## s/LaSH (Mar 17, 2003)

I know the scenario sounds far-fetched. The fortress doesn't have to be a cube, of course; I just loved that image. But I think it can be handled.

The point of this scenario is to address the existance of vast cosmic powers. The formians don't have to be the only ones involved; in fact, I can see some truly bizarre alliances formed out of this one by the various peoples of the world. Ideally, some treaty will be arranged at the end whereby the Prime is protected from awe-numbing incursions like this one, but it's not in place yet and we really need to figure out why this doesn't happen in other Prime Material worlds. If the outsiders are out there, there's a reason they don't use the 'center' of the multiverse as their battleground, and I want to know what that reason is - militarily speaking.

Skeletons from across the sea could be worked in, however... there are Auselen necromancers, and if they get enslaved by the formians we'll be seeing some truly nasty battles. Let alone the possibility of enslaved dragons, which is just going to be nasty.

Or are there other thoughts?


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## The Goblin King (Mar 18, 2003)

From a mortal military point of view there is no way to win.   Perhaps when the Wish spell is developed they could send them packing but that might only work once.  The only way I could figure would be Divine interference.  No material plane could stand up to a full scale extraplanar invasion.  I imagine there is some guardian of the earth deity that could see these things coming due to portfolio sense and would just say 'No' when an army tried to land.  There would still be loopholes that could be exploited of course but luckily a small band of heroes always manages to avert disaster.


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Mar 18, 2003)

Hhrrrmmm, while this is a very cool scenario I feel it's jumping the gun a little.  Going to eighth level spells is a huge leap from where we were before.  Not only does it imply a lot of research it forces us to create roles for high level characters in the societies in question.  Decide how they get they created and used by the societies in question.

Also any massive invasion from the outer planes brings up a lot of questions about deities that we haven't answered.

I also question how much business Ta'jinn and Cressia would be willing to do with Ausel.  The Auselens screwed them over in the last war and all of the factions knew about and it and none were happy about it.   The current understandings between the Khanate and Cressian sort of hinge on their hatred of Ausel.  And I don't see the Khanate and Greater Cressia engaging in much brinkmanship and arms racing as the Khante views Greater Cressia as securing their border and running their border so that it might turn its attention elsewhere.

I do think that additional powers need to be introduced into the scenario and I had hoped that the understanding that resulted in Greater Cressia would result in the Auselen expanding out in the direction of other lands and thus expanding the scope of the world and its conflicts.

Those are all questions of set up for the scenario, however, and I think that there are still a lot of kewl issues to be addressed and dealt with here. Just some adjustments to be made.

That being said, I would say that there while there are probably a fairly large number of high level of adventurers and characters scattered throughout Greater Cressia the highest concentrations are in the following centers, in no particular order:

-The Memorial City/the City of the Games:  The high command of the Confederacy established an academy around a hundred years ago to create projects that would use the talents of the most experienced and learned individuals in Greater Cressia.  This community is largely self-sustaining but a mysterious group alternately known as the Deans, Wardens, and Minders (depending on your cultural origins) possesses both the highest official authority in the community and a powerful template given to them by the combined powers of the Cressian Deities, Stempan Oracles, and Ta'jinn Blood Spirits.

-The Oracular Enclosures, Cressian Hierarchy, and Ta'jinn Councils

-The city states, guilds, Ta'jinn orders, and Tamarchs

-The Empty Quarter, including the Ta'jinn Foriegn Tamarch, Cressian Ceremonial cities, dark Stempa, and various other high conflict low order areas.

-Various small or fluid communities of adventurers, such as the Inn of the Coral Breaks in the Cressian port cluster of Rarshun in which a high powered market of unusual items, a community of sages of arcane lore, foriegn embassies, and some strong guild posts and temples are located.  From this city many adventurers derive supplies and information for their risky undertakings and customers for their goods.  Many adventurers come to settle or retire here and many institutions recruit heavily here as well as vie for the many innovations in techniques, technology, and learning that the unusual populace produces.


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Mar 18, 2003)

Also at this point in the scenario, since we are going to be keeping these culture for a while, I thought it might be useful to establish some outlines for the cosmology of the cultures we're and have dealt with.

Some of this has already been worked on, but I'd like to propose that at this point worship in the cultures has evolved as the cultures have adapted to each other and their history.

The Cressians still possess a religion that features many active deities.  The Field Father and Dog Mother have gained particular significance as time has gone by.   The Heirarchy is an extremely undogmatic religious institution, much less so than the populace.  Where most of the laity and uninvestitured members of the populace belong to one or more specific cults, the Heirarchs view themselves as having been shown the way to greater closeness to the world of the gods and nature through the Field Father and Dog Mother's guidance.   Each individual member of the hierarchy is considered more or less a member of every cult, but also as enjoying a specific path to enlightenment granted by their close proximity to the path of nature and the Father and Mother deities.  They are thus prone to Theological discussion but have no sense of heresy or heterodoxy recognizing each members specific revelations as valuable and incorporatable into the greater understanding.   They do posess a sense of great duty and even concepts such as good and evil are less important to them than the wisdom of one's actions with regard to one's role as a leader or pundit or example in Cressian society.

That's a pretty complicated treatment.  Let's try this:

Cressia:  two major dieties, one overall heirarcy, four major cults and a numerous minor ones from cults of smithing powers to the dieties of households and roads.  The two major dieties prefer to advise rather than intervene, lesser dieties are more prone to intervention but also less active overall.  All the dieties are fairly hostile to extra-planar creatures save for some elementals and creatures of the natural world that have been made holy, celestial dogs and what not.   
    Major intervention:  Likely in the case of minor dieites, guidance, inspiration, and favor.  Unlikely but possible in the event of a minor cross planar crisis likely as a last result.
    Stance to Other Dieities:  Fairly open.  The Father and Mother are very protective of Cressia but have allowed other dieties to join their pantheon as the patrons of particular aspects of Cressia.

Ta'jinn:  Ancestors intercede for the river people and Centaurs.  Important groups in the communion of the ancestors are the blood spirits, the gate spirits, and the manifest or spirit of the great breath.  
-Blood Spirits: Protector spirits who are currently very popular with the divine spell casters of the whole of the Khanate.  The patrons of the god-blooded.  Highly likely to inspire and command.  Likely to intervene through coincedence only occasionally through manifestation.  They were created with the Khanate as a result of the war against the demons.
-Gate Spirits: Psychopomps.  The patrons of the clergy in charge of the elaborate funerary rites of the river people.  They organize and guide the spirits of the dead into the Communion of Ancestors.  They are highly likely to intervene and will manifest to protect tombs or places of worship from outsiders.
-Spirits of the Great Breath:  Wind spirits.  The original patrons of the Centaurs and the ancestors of the house of the Khanate.  These spirits guided the Khanate against the demons and give the house of the Khanate the capabilities necessary to run their great empire.   They are most likely to intervene with gifts and blessings.   They or it never manifests though it has on occasion possessed a Centaur, member of the royal household, or member of the Khan's table.   The Spirits of the Great Breath are capable of uniting into a single entity the equal of a greater deity, but rarely do so.

I'm not as good with Stempa or Ausel.


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## The Goblin King (Mar 18, 2003)

The Stempa have a god for each city. http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=725124#post725124  Perhaps over time they have developed a Zeus figure to solidify thier pantheon.  Each god is related by blood to this unifying figure.

For the Auselen I was thinking a state sanctioned mystery cult.  Members of the half-dragon nobility would induct the common people in the ways worship.


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Mar 18, 2003)

The Goblin King said:
			
		

> *The Stempa have a god for each city. http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=725124#post725124  Perhaps over time they have developed a Zeus figure to solidify thier pantheon.  Each god is related by blood to this unifying figure.
> 
> For the Auselen I was thinking a state sanctioned mystery cult.  Members of the half-dragon nobility would induct the common people in the ways worship. *




I like both of these ideas.

I was thinking that the Oracles could provide a unifying element between the dieties of the individual towns.  Maybe their patron acts as a sort of judge or mediator between the people and the gods and the between the various gods themselves.  Over time the Oracular deity arrives at a position of prominence that reflects the new position of the Oracles themselves with regard to the Stempan city states.


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## Tonguez (Mar 19, 2003)

*The Oracular Diety*
 - What about the Norns/Fates/ Three Sisters?

The Triumvate Sisterhood of the Fates is the patron diety of the Oracles. It is the Three Sisters that weave the fabric of reality and it is they who determine the fate of gods and mortals.

Each city and each Diety of Stempa recognizes that it is a strand being woven in by the Three Sisters.

*Auselen*

The Auselen have Monks and Scrocerers-Kings on they way to becoming gods. What if the Auselen have a philosophical religion without 'gods'. Instead the Auselen beleive that they are all divine beings trapped within weak fleshy body's- this also explains the Biomancy introduced inorder to overcome their weak bodies.

The pursuit of the Scorcerer Kings then is to transform their weak humanoid forms into the glorious form of the Dragon and thus become flesh-made-god (Dragon-gods) 

Monks fit well into this too as they will eventually become Outsiders - divine servants of the Dragon-gods!

So what would a Dragon Monk 20 be?


_ another thought on the conflict_
the Sisters could be the ones who ultimately intervene and ban all extrplanar incursions as the weave of reality starts to unravel
But maybe we should get to that first...


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## The Goblin King (Mar 19, 2003)

Odd.  Earlier today I was trying to imagine an Auselen temple and saw a huge ornate building guilded with gold and gems.  Worshipers formed a line to get in.  Along the steps up the hill were rows of prayer wheels.  The people turned them as they walked along.  However, I couldn't figure out why they would want to do so.  Now I know.   The Auselen believe that reading a prayer or spining a wheel with the prayer on it is the same as saying the prayer out loud.  Praying to the Five Elemental Dragons makes brings you closer to perfection.

The outer circle to which most Auselen people belong are instructed that the five elemental dragons are symbolic of the forces of the universe.  The story of how the dragons came down from Heaven to reside on Auselen as the true kings of the earth is taught as a metaphor for journey of life.  The common people learn the history of the five founders of the great houses.  

The middle circle of priests do the actual work of running the church.  These are people who have proven themselves devoted to the faith.  They go on pilgramages and try to reenact the lives of the house founders.  By pefecting themselves they strive to trancend flesh.  Almost all monks belong to this circle.

The inner circle is composed only of the half-dragon sorcerer nobility.  Those people who can trace their blood back to one of the five elemental dragons.  They are the land owners of the island.  At this level they learn that the five dragons are not metaphors but real creatures.  The dragons did decend from Someplace Else and took human mates.  The five dragons reside in the dungeons below their temples.  They sleep, for now, on the mass of treasure contributed by their worshipers.  But they dream restless dreams and it is said that the dragons are aware of the world around them and have the ability to speak to their decendants in visions.


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## s/LaSH (Mar 19, 2003)

Tonguez said:
			
		

> *Auselen*
> 
> The Auselen have Monks and Scrocerers-Kings on they way to becoming gods. What if the Auselen have a philosophical religion without 'gods'. Instead the Auselen beleive that they are all divine beings trapped within weak fleshy body's- this also explains the Biomancy introduced inorder to overcome their weak bodies.
> 
> ...




That's what I always thought of the Auselen. "We're better than you, we don't need your gods to rule us." It's a very philisophical religion, yet one in which the strong rule. I also like the idea of dragons from another world... they probably share that philosophy, after all, and a really big dragon is probably a match for a formian army (if we go with that)... and what's to say they don't have cousins sleeping somewhere else?

Either way, this is an age when restraint is unknown. The humans have never wondered what would happen were they to have a serious mage throw-down, and cosmic forces like formians or slaadi couldn't care less about one little continent. I can seriously see 8th level spell casters being hunted down after they screw up the world, thus accounting for a 'magical dark age' when technology advances to compensate for the lost magic... (Also consider that 15th-level characters are capable of taking on formians quite effectively, especially in a 'dungeon' environment. Increased magic means increased elitist units in the form of adventurers, which in turn means a greater emphasis on surgical strikes against powerful personages.)

And yes, having a 'bail-out switch' in the form of the Sisters is a good plan. If we carry on with my suggestion, we'll probably need one. Remember: Arms races sometimes come up with things that nobody wants to use. Agreeing not to use something is as much a valid tactic as actually using it. Look at nuclear weapons, or high-grade chemical weaponry like they _didn't_ use in WWII. That stuff is terrifying (more so than you realise, probably, say my military consultants). Similarly, if certain high-level powers start getting hurled around, people are going to put together some banning treaties pretty fast.


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## GladiusNP (Mar 19, 2003)

*The state of the world to the east of Cressia....*

Very Long.

My preference would be for portals to the plane of law rather than a fortress.  I also think that this time, we should state the outcome first.  Not the exact details, but what we want the general flow of the round to be - do we want Greater Cressia to expand, does the Khanate break up into satellite states, etc.  

With regard to Stempan cosmology….

The city-states have now developed beyond their former allegiances to one god, but the pantheon still has its conflicts.  Most are now dealt with as debate – within the great Basilica at Lesthen, where all of the ten lesser gods are honoured, under the guiding hand of fate itself.  Stempans believe that humans are formed of tiny pieces of the divine – a substance called pneuma.  

Most Clerics follow one god – dispensing advice and teaching the advantages that the god offers through their portfolio, and are referred to as priests, as opposed to oracles.  They also respect the fates, and the other lesser gods.  They serve as judges for matters that fall within their god’s purview.  For example, a Cleric of Beros (often called a Pursier) will witness contracts, adjudicate trade disputes, collect coin offerings, offer blessings on mercantile ventures, and show how offerings and praise of Beros can lead to a rich and successful life.  On the other hand, a Priestess of Crossus might teach athletes, show others how to develop their bodies, adjudicate over races and competitions, and show the rewards of offerings to Crossus  (strength, glory, sporting ability.) 

The most influential Clerics are the oracles.  Twelve years after the first Cressian-Khanate War, the former dogma of the church (originally called the Mycelien Orthodoxy, now more commonly called the Mycelien Heresy), which was that each city was one god’s pneuma, was discarded upon the epiphany of the Three Sisters.  The revelation of the three Sisters of Fate, a higher order of goddess, lead to the centralisation of the Stempan religion with the belief that all Stempans were of the Three Sister’s pneuma, and provided a valuable assist to the Concord.

(Note – the Cressians’ knowledge of roads spread to the Stempa.  This also helped the city-states join together.)

The Oracles are now considered to worship all gods, and are believed to have influence / insight to the fate of each person.  An oracle being present at the birth of a child is often asked to read the signs of the child’s fate.  Most full oracles are found at the Lesthen Basilica, but acolytes of the Three Sisters work throughout Stempa, mainly as civil servants.  

Offerings are made to the lesser gods whose favour a Stempan wishes to receive.  The gods are not particularly jealous of each other, save for Arcsos.  Beros, Ephros and Mastos are the most popular gods for offerings.  Neglect may bring ruin, or is blamed for such the majority of the time.  The Fates are considered to be above influence in human affairs, so no one sacrifices to them.

Arcsos – Lost all of his worshippers in the sacking of Thelia.  Formerly, Arcsos was the god of revenge, warfare and law.  Now a very minor god – only a small fanatical cult of Thelian descendants follow him.  Followers still seek revenge against the Ta’Jinn, and the Ausel.  Form a small subversive cell within the general Concord of Stempa. 

Beros – One of the most popular gods, Beros is the Lord of Coin and Trade.  Watches over all contracts, transactions, and sales.  False measurement is never conducted in front of a statue of Beros (Stempans believe this will cause bankruptcy); so canny Ta’Jinn merchants from the Heaven River Consortiums always carry a small idol of Beros.

Crossus – The most athletic of the Stempan pantheon.  The god of both strength and athleticism.  The Stempan delegation to the Olympics dedicates their performance at the games every year to him.  The ogres who live in Stempa mostly worship Crossus, in his aspect as a god of might.  

Cumidne – A minor goddess, she is the Lady of Secret Knowledge, and the sky.  Also considered to be the mage’s god in Stempa.  She is also the patron of learning, so schools often have an icon of her over the doorway.

Epardne – Goddess of healing.  Worshipped by many when a relative falls sick, though few remain devoted to her all their lives – considering it almost to be an invitation of sickness.  Her clerics, despite this superstition, are rarely sick, and heal others.  Are often expert surgeons, despite their magical abilities.

Ephros – Lord of the harvest, seasons, and change.  Considered to be a somewhat fickle god.  Many offerings are made to him at Temples, praying for a good harvest.  His clerics are known as harbingers of some great alterations – for good or for ill.

Iradne – has assumed the warfare portion of Arcsos’ portfolio completely.  Is a just and righteous warrior, and all Stempan soldiers call upon her in battle.  A particularly righteous and fearsome warrior is “favoured of Iradne,” a title conferred by her church.

Mastos – god of the forge, the earth, and craft.  The last of the ‘big three’ of the Stempan gods.  Prayed to by Stempan crafts folk.  

Pisenes – Sailors pray to Pisenes when they fear the ocean, Sirene when they give thanks for its’ bounty.  Pisenes is the lord of storms and the ocean, formerly called Piscenes.  Also a minor figure in some Cressian cults in southern Cressia.  Some of the more northern Cressian cults’ worship of ‘the Fishlord’ is also an aspect of Pisenes.

Sirene – The goddess of ocean bounty, tides, and the moon.  Fishermen pray to her, all giving thanks when the ocean gives a good harvest.  Considered kinder than Ephros.  

With regard to the Rise and (future) Fall of the Ta’Jinn empire….

The Ta’Jinn Centaurs are like Alexander the Great, really good at conquering an Empire, but not so effective at administrating it.  Heaven River has become the centre of the Empire, with lots of wealth and trade coming into the largest city in the region – probably the capital of the empire.  In these modern times, trade is vastly more important.  Centaurs aren’t really that interested, but the humans of the Heaven River Valley sure are.

They are going to become more powerful, and perhaps a bit more elitist.  The centaurs still form the majority of the armies, and have many in positions of power, but the Heaven River humans now provide the bulk of the bureaucrats, administrators and civil servants.  This is a subtle, but still important, shift in power.  Also, trade routes have become very well established, and a city has developed upon the least hostile part of the Empty Quarter, on the trade route.  The cult of Arcsos, Jinn mercenaries, Ausel arms-dealers, and Cressian expatriates all live here, in the city of Aroch. 

I feel that we should use all 6th level spells for the next round (in the main traditions of each culture), and 2nd level spells for each of the other magical traditions as each culture becomes more diversified.  Each culture should have begun to develop some 7th level spells.  Why so low?  It’s only been one hundred years.  For example….

Ta’Jinn Godsbloods now know all 6th level spells (or rather, are familiar with.  Not every Godsblood sorcerer knows all spells, of course).  They have 2nd level cleric, druid, and bard spells (meaning a limit of 4th level for most ‘foreign’ magic-users).  Sorcerers of high level have also researched some 7th-level information, scrying, divination, and utility spells.  (Including but not limited to; Banishment [hatred of outsiders], Sequester, Greater Scrying, Vision, Vanish, Ethereal Jaunt, Plane Shift [developed as spin-off from research for banishment, rarely used]).     

One last point, native classes….

Cressia – Bard, Druid, Ranger (Deltanes).

Ausel – Rogue, Monk, Sorcerer.

Stempa – Cleric, Fighter.

Ta’Jinn – Sorcerer, Fighter, Barbarian.

Does that look right?  Any comments on anything in this post?


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Mar 19, 2003)

Wow, this is actually going pretty well.

Let's say that this age has been a heroic age.  The peace in Greater Cressia combines with the games, the constant small expansion and conflict of the major cultures, and a judicial amount of encouragement toward individual development from various divine elements to create an unusually high number of high level adventurers, and I use the term adventurer to deliberately distinguish between these men of furious action and the high levels that would be accrued by leaders and sages under normal circumstances.

In Ausel all of these heroes are considered more or less a normal part of their society and religion.  The culture gathers at the great temples to witness the contests by which heroes prove themselves and make themselves more perfect.  Clerics come from those who dedicate themselves to either those heroes who have gone before or to the adoration of the dragon heroes who have truely transcended.

In Greater Cressia the heroes have gathered in the places I listed earlier, but at the City of the Great Games the Wardens have recruited many heroes into an organization that supports them and gives them a means to work together.  Sort of like a cross between the Round Table, an Olympic Village, a University, and the Vatican with a particular emphasis on creating magical items.

Both cultures have been experimenting with tactics to better support these extraordinary individuals in the field and use them to great strategic effect.

I think we know need to decide how each culture's particular brand of heroism and heroic technology works.

First, however, we need to decide how the different cultures will react to the presence of the Formians.

I think there is actually a fairly high likelihood that the Ausel and the Formians will reach a detente.

The Ausel have plenty of high level magic users around who quickly realize the nature of the threat.  Gathering with the elder heads of the houses, they send a delegation to the Formians with apologies and all the bound Formians in Ausel.  They express great admiration for the tenets of law the Formians offer them and spin themselves as a very lawful culture.   After all, their people are highly organized and they have many monks and other lawful entities.

The Ausel then state that the true source of chaos on this world is Greater Cressia, a power which forces them to bind Formians in order to feed their mighty engines of war and chaos.  They beg the Formians to help them in an attempt to conquer their continental oppressors.

I think this scheme could work.  To the Ausel elite the Formians are simply another opportunity.  To the Ausel commoner the Formians are simply proof of ever greater wonders that await the virtuously perfect.  To the Formians the Ausel seem to be a very advanced if unfortunate culture that needs their aid.

Afterall, how hard can a creature of pure law be to con?


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## GladiusNP (Mar 19, 2003)

Dr. Strangemonkey said:
			
		

> *The Ausel have plenty of high level magic users around who quickly realize the nature of the threat.  *




Also, the research conducted on formian workers would have revealed that they are resistant to many forms of magical energy, which would make the Ausel very wary of theses guys indeed - even more so when they learn that soldiers are resistant to magic.  

Probably could end up working with the Formians.  I'd say that the Ausel are Lawful Evil, and the latter doesn't matter to the Formains.


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Mar 19, 2003)

*Re: The state of the world to the east of Cressia....*



			
				GladiusNP said:
			
		

> *
> 
> With regard to the Rise and (future) Fall of the Ta’Jinn empire….
> 
> ...




I'm game for some initial speculation but determining too much ahead of time risks that people will limit their creativity to that end.  If someone comes up with a really cool tactic like the Ta'jinn firebombing from the last session I would hate to have them ignore it in order to have things match the stated goals.

That said.  I think the Ta'jinn are more like Darius than Alexander.   They probably work very hard to allow each culture in their empire to lead its own life as long as it is loyal and to use each culture to do what it does best.  The Jinn parts of the empire are thus very different from the provinces of the river.  All of the cultures find unity in the very cosmopolitan culture of the councils with their many orders and the representatives of the Khan's court.  The table has been surrounded by a vast palace city in which the dignitaries of all of the subject people are present and negotiate the laws and disputes of the land before the judges and beauracrats of the King's table in the palace of quills and petition for aid before the arbiters, generals, and knights of the palace of swords.  The priesthood of the Spirit of the Khan/Spirit of the Great Breath maintains order and the Khan's authority.

I see the Khannate as being a very stable and prosperous nation barring external conquest or violent and aberrant internal disorder.

My only other comments would be that 7th level makes more sense to me in terms of time, but that the sort of adventure and fall out made possible by the repulsion of an extraplanar invasion is only possible if we allow higher levels and powers overall.

I've thought about and come around on the cube for the following reason:  I want to see what happens to these cultures in the wake of repulsing an invasion of this sort.

And I would hypothesize that a heroic age occuring at this time is not simply coincedence.  At the end of the conflict the heroic age will end and the various cultures will loose many of the great technologies and lore possessed by the great individuals of this era to return to a simpler time and steadier pace of development, but one that has been forever influenced by the introduction of extraplanar ideas and moments.

My suggestion would be that now that the Religion question has been settled we come up with the major high powered groups in some greater detail.

A heroic era is a phenomena that is both appropriate and possible in DnD world building and we would be remiss not to explore it.   Afterwards the world can return to its basic shape with each culture having undergone some permanent internal changes as a result of the events we will describe.

Stempa needs a god or goddess of love, hearth, the family, decency, and protection.  Every culture that has a sense of the importance of private life needs one.  I would suggest that this deity be a group of deities that exist directly under the fates.  This explains why there are many oracles since every city needed both the protection of these gods and the city god.  

This deity is unequivocally lawful good and gives the Stempans some early access to Paladins as protectors of the Oracles.  These in turn then become the first force of the Greater Cressia Confederation.  As the Confederation grows the administrative needs become greater and combine with the high magic of the city that creates the Wardens to produce a new tradition of magical learning.  Thus add the following to the native class list:

Concordance= Wizards and Paladins

My final comment would be that Cressia and the Ta'jinn probably share Ranger and Barbarian as favored classes.   Cressia had battle ragers some time ago and the Ta'jinn have always had elite scouts.


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## Omega Lord (Mar 19, 2003)

Hello all, Ive been reading these threads for a few months now and this is the first time I have actually caught up with the leading edge of the thread. RW, great idea man. Everyone else wonderful development. Too bad we started this after the setting search at wizards or else we could submit a communal entry  , but I digress...

Expect to have my particular brand of creative insanity to the mix.

1st order of business. On the Ausel divine connection. One thing that was mentioned wayy back in this thread was perhaps using shugenja's from OA. I must say the more the Ausel culture fleshes out the more I think this might be a good idea. Think about it, shugenja are element focused divine sorcerors. The elemental focus fits in with the whole Ausel magic thing and the shugenjas dont worship a god, just the elements (or perhaps the elemental dragons). Possible problems with this

1. the wood dragon, AFAIK there is no "wood" based shugenja, however this is a moderatly easy fix. Just add some spells dealing with plants to the OA spell list and call it good.

2. Not everyone has OA, not everyone likes OA.

Another thing that shugenjas would do is give a very uniqe flavor to the Ausel magicians. Granted there would still be sorceror elite but the shugenjas could add the element of divine casting into the Ausel pantheon (no clerics=no magic healing=  ) and they could serve as "high preists" of a sort.

Like I said, if everyone likes the idea of incorporating OA into this scenario then I think that this would be a wonderful place to start. Other possible OA additions: weapons/items, OA critters, shamans for the cressians, perhaps centauric Ta'Jinn samuri?

Just some thoughts.


ACKKKKK!! I just had a very twisted idea, Ausel maho tasuki !!

Granted that would require a little rules bending but yipes.


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## s/LaSH (Mar 19, 2003)

Rambling thought time!

Inclusion of Oriental Adventures stuff, while it would be super cool, probably shouldn't happen because it's not SRD. SRD is the focus for this exercise, as I mention rather often, because you can create just about anything with non-SRD rules - I prefer to put a limit on tactical options. Plus I don't own OA 

And what's a maho tasuki?

(But elemental priests are possible... just give a cleric elemental domains, maybe say they can only spontaneous cast from their domains instead of heal/harm. Quick fix. We're not using the Greyhawk pantheon here.)

Which reminds me... clerical domains need to be defined. Preferably SRD domains, for the reasons cited above.

Someone mentioned paladins. While the Stempan emphasis on religion and warrior culture would possibly produce them, a while back I mentioned something interesting arising from the initial skirmish between Cresia and Ta'jinn: jinn paladins. Demon hunters who seek out evil and smite it - is there anything more jinn? Honestly? They could well have developed from a tiny order (or group of people too small to become an order!) to werewolf hunters during the inevitable plagues after the Stempan War wound down. They could even have a cool name like the Demonbloods (so called because they shed a lot of it in the glorious past).

Now the REAL focus: Ausel allies with the Formians. I LOVE IT! I never saw that coming, which is what this thread is all about, isn't it?

However, I'm not certain they'd get to that conclusion quite in time to save everyone. I think the main Summoner city (and at least one dragon) would be enslaved before the rest of Ausel got its act together and presented a treaty, and that gives the formians a little more firepower... and they're not likely to give it back, are they? It's not a major blow for the Auselen (not more than 5% of their power), but it's something.

Plus it sets up a neat dragonslaying quest for the mainlanders that could have serious politican ramifications if it succeeds...


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## Robbert Raets (Mar 19, 2003)

So, assuming that the Ta'Jinn and Cressian army division remains the same, how does the Stempan Concord organise it's forces?

Human and Hobgoblin swordsmen shielded with one or two lines of ablative Spear-Goblins? Ogre, Archer and Cleric support groups added as needed?


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Mar 19, 2003)

s/LaSH said:
			
		

> *Rambling thought time!
> 
> (But elemental priests are possible... just give a cleric elemental domains, maybe say they can only spontaneous cast from their domains instead of heal/harm. Quick fix. We're not using the Greyhawk pantheon here.)
> 
> ...




Sounds like a good solution to the Shugenja issue.  Shugenja are really easy to create out of clerics.  You just lower the armor proficiencies, up the skill list, give them expanded elemental domains, and the Sorceror spell progression.

hmmm, maybe that isn't so easy, but that tells you what Shugenja are without having to buy OA.

I really wanted the Ta'jinn to be Paladinny too, but couldn't see how they would fit into the larger flexible culture of the Khanate cept maybe as an order of God-Blooded.  I also wanted wizards for the Ta'jinn to represent the scholarly tradition of the River Province, but the God-Blooded need to be Sorcerors.

Thus I suggested the compromise of having Wizards and Paladins be the class contributions created by the mixing of cultures in the Empty Quarter and City of Games.  I think both could find places to live in all of the cultures but the real center would be the new land created by the melding of all of the cultures.

The Game City needs a name by the way, and I'm no good at them.   Someone please help.

Also, I think we should certainly allow a bit of Ausel to get smacked down.   Then when the war is over they can become a faction of undead so we can use the cool ideas on Dracoliches and what not that someone mentioned above.

Oh yeah, this conflict is so going to be the War of the Lance for this world.


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## s/LaSH (Mar 20, 2003)

Formian tactic: taskmasters dominating Auselen attack beasts. The Auselen create weird creatures too mindless to work together... unless their minds are shackled to something else. Does anybody else think the idea of a dire bear pack is terrifying on the battlefield? "Suddenly, giant bears jump out of the woods surrounding you! Flanking bonus! Surprise attack! Bullrush everyone into a fireball radius! Step back!"

A single taskmaster could be a mindboggling advantage to the Auselen armies on a small scale. (Although not to their golems. Are we still going with golems? Limited Wish is level 7.)


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## Tonguez (Mar 20, 2003)

So What we have then is

1 Cressia – Bard, Druid, Ranger, Lycanthorpes, Celestial Dogs, Giant Eagles,  a Roc (or two)

domains: Druid, Air (Eagles), Animal, Plant, Earth, Water

2 Ta’Jinn – Sorcerer, Fighter, Barbarian, Centaurs, Griffons

domains: War, Strength, Law, Air, Protection, Travel

3 Stempa – Cleric, Fighter, Alchemist. Ogres, Hobgoblins, Goblins 
Arcsos - Destruction, Chaos, War
Beros - Law, Knowledge, Good
Ephros - Plant, Luck, Healing
Mastos - Earth, Fire, Protection

4 Ausel – Rogue, Monk, Sorcerer. Monsters (Zombi, Golem, Elementals)? and Dragons (maybe)

domains: Air, Earth, Fire, Water, Strength, Magic

5  Formian Hive - Workers, Warriors, Taskmasters, Observers, Myrmarch, Queen, Slaves

domains: none

The initial set up has the Formians sending observers to assess *ONE* of the Auselen strongholds. The Auselen within are on high alert/panic trying to determine what this strange fortress and the insectile inhabitants is. The enslaved Formian workers are revolting trying to get back to the hive. - What happens next (if the Formains win this (ha!) then one Auselen city will be down - allowing for the Treaty to be formed later)

Meanwhile tensions have risen in Greater Cressia as the Ta'jinn Athletes at the Memorial Games are attacked by a Werewolf... (what happens now?)


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## The Goblin King (Mar 20, 2003)

Tonguez said:
			
		

> *
> 4 Ausel – Rogue, Monk, Sorcerer. Monsters (Zombi, Golem, Elementals)? and Dragons (maybe)
> 
> domains: Air, Earth, Fire, Water, Strength, Magic
> *




Perhaps: Earth, Fire, Water, Law, Strength, War and Magic?  There isn't a domain for Metal or Wood so I don't know about them.


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Mar 20, 2003)

Right, let's say that werewolf incident merits an investigation by the Cometatus, the association of heroes, and wardens of the concord.   The group doing the investigation, the Circle of the Gimlet Eye, discovers clues that hint at an Ausel attempt to create tensions in Greater Cressia by creating a werewolf out of one of their minion and then sleeping the fellow in the Empty Quarter until the games.  Determined to discover how the Ausel snuck the fellow in the Circle mounts a stealth operation in Ausel using a Roc as transportation.  

In Ausel they stumble on something greater as they see the destruction of the city of the summoners and the march of forces from the cube.   They quickly return to alert the Confederation of this new threat to the stability of the region.

The Confederation decides that the situation calls for a radically new sort of aggressive action.

On the homefront they begin integrating the most capable members of Greater Cressia's institutions into a common defense network and begin mobilizing troops and shoring up defenses in preparation for a possible massive invasion by forces with a powerful if unknown level of capability.

To take the fight to the enemy they organize all of Greater Cressia's willing and known heroes into small forces organized according to who works best together and what functions these group are then determined to be best suited for.   Backing up these groups are the well supplied wizards and well mounted paladins of the academy.  Much of the long range navies of Greater Cressia are also involved in this effort.

BTW, I would assume that nearly all the Paladins of the academy are mounted on unusual and/or flying mounts given the fact that no culture in this thread has ever been into horses except as draft animals.

Their plan is to prepare the teams of adventurers for remote insertion into Ausel.   The teams will be supplied with the best magical equipment available to the Confederation and backed up by wizards and paladins working off of ships stationed some distance from Ausel's shores.

The majority of the ships, however, will distract attention away from the circles by attacking and destroying as much Ausel shipping as possible, taking advantage of Ausel internal discord and making it more difficult for the invaders to make use of Ausel shipping.  Every time they capture a ship they offer to allow the crew to defect as a means of gaining Ausel expertise on the new enemy.

Emissaries are sent to the Khannate to see what aid their Empire might be able to offer and to warn them of the new threat.

Anyone want to hazard a guess as to precisely how ape the Ta'jinn will go over news of a massive invasion by outsiders?


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## GladiusNP (Mar 20, 2003)

I also think the Stempa should really be involved – in the last conflict they were pretty much the pawns of the other powers.  This could really shape them even further to be like the Greeks.  According to what I have read, the Homeric epics formed the backbone of the Greek religion – and what better ground for an epic than the war with the Formians.  I'd say that the Auselen agent kills one of their most beloved athletes, and they are definitely out to knock off the werewolf.  When Cressia discovers the Formians, the Stempa are asked to help.  They agree to - not wanting to be ruled by the Ausel, who are still mistrusted due to the sacking of Thelia, and the Accords of Helg.

This is great – we can have heroes similar to Achilles, Ajax, Odysseus, etc.  Fits in quite well with the “Age of Heroes” theme for this round.  Unlike the foe-slayer style heroes the Cressians develop, the heroes of the Stempa are leaders of great armies, and priests of the goddess Iradne.  

Though this is getting way ahead, what if Mordenkainen’s Disjuction is the eventual way they banish the cube?  Desperate researchers mange to come up with the spell and insert a small band of the most elite of the Cressians…. But that’s (hopefully) a long way off.

What do Cressia get up to?  This is interesting, because they are truly on the offensive for the first time (at least in a discussion of tactics.)  They’d have to (due to small size) keep out of the way of Formian and Auselen patrols, only attacking under cover of darkness, or when they have advantageous conditions.  Each small group should probably be a hunt or so in size. I’m thinking a combined arms group of one leader Druid/ Elite Deltane Ranger, one pack of Deltane rangers, one pack of celestial dogs, three packs of javelin men (using atlatls), and three packs using a dangerous new weapon – the longspear.  Usual deployment (against an enemy shieldwall) runs something like this.  Packs with longspears in front, in a tight line, packs with javelins behind, and Deltanes in the middle. 

The Cressians always try and use terrain to good advantage, and try to move into a good position, attack from where they are least expected, and move away.

If charged, Javelins throw at enemy, then retreat, the longspears holding back the enemy, with Deltanes shoring up line, and coming in to where the enemy gets within the  reach of the spearmen, along with the celestial dogs. As the Spearmen move back, the Javelins continue to throw into the enemy forces, beyond the first rank.   Cressians seldom hold in these sorts of battles for long, preferring to retreat in good order, then form up on another side of the enemy and attack again.   

If the enemy hold back, the Javelins soften them up with four or five volleys, then advance with the longspears, using the Deltanes and the Hounds of Cressia to break the line via skirmish tactics or shock assaults in one point.   Alternatively, they may withdraw, depending on how much damage was done, and what the opportunity is.

The Druids usually keep themselves in reserve, though they will commit their animals / celestial dogs/ themselves in shifted form to break up enemy lines with the Deltanes.   Most of the ranger heroes are found either in the Javelins or with the Deltanes, or leading a small group into an ambush.  Barbarian Deltanes / Berserkers always are in the longspears or with the Deltanes, and usually are used in more aggressive hunts.  

Druids/ Paladins on eagles/griffons also provide reconnaissance and ground assault – though the Ausel can chew them up with spells if they aren’t very careful.

The Stempa usually fight in a loose grouping, each man heavily armoured and carrying a Khopesh.  (They've come over on galleys).  Behind them, ogres with longspears (given the design by Cressia) often are positioned, providing a vicious back-up to the main Stempan force.  Due to the room needed to swing a Khopesh (and thei adaptation to fighting against area magic used by Clerics, and the Auselen fireballs) Stempa don’t pack themselves too tightly.  They will advance in good order, and maintain a decent line.  If faced with a missile barrage, they often form a shieldwall, and may do so against cavalry, with the ogres reaching out/ setting their spears to attack horsemen.  The Stempa usually send clerics with each army, who cast all sorts of protective spells.  Wizardry is also becoming more common – but as a counter-spelling tactic, rather than pure offense.  The Stempa have also developed contacts with the goblin-kin.  Hob-goblins often provide elite units to fight in the main ranks, and small sling-wielding goblins are the mainstay of Stempan missile weaponry.  Bugbears are used like ogres, but are much rarer.   Stempan heroes fight in the middle of the battle, killing dozens of the enemy with their elite fighting skills.  Their clerics also call upon the gods, casting spells, shouting incantations, and healing the wounded.

Ausel are very reliant on magic and monks/rogues.  Due to this, they rarely fight in good formation, attacking in a loose group.  Though Monks are lawful their fighting style doesn’t lend itself well to fighting in groups.  If the other forces develop serious protections vs. magic, the Ausel may have trouble.

The Formians attack in ordered ranks, with no commands, marching in silence, save for the click of chitin and the pounding of thousands of feet.  They usually march into the 
enemy and begin to destroy them, tearing into the oppostion with claws and mandibles.

The Formians and and Ausel may have trouble working together at first, but soon develop a good system.  The Formians are immune to much of the magic the Ausel chuck around, and the Formians can easily control the summoned creatures of the Ausel.  

With regard to a Stempan household god…. Ten is a nice round number, and we have ten gods plus the Three Sisters.  Maybe we could make the Stempa believe in a small house-hold spirit / demi-god, who has a small shrine in each home, and to whom very small offering are made?  Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe the Romans had a set-up like this.  If this doesn’t work, let me know.


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Mar 20, 2003)

Well, both Stempa and Cressia have to get involved at an early point as they are the two ready made naval powers.

Cressia and the Khanate contribute aerial backup and marines.

So how would Stempa and Cressia construct their navies?

Cressia probably has a variety of ship designs at this point, but 

Stempa probably has something approaching the mediterranean equivalent of longships due to the amount of time they have to spend on rivers, limited supplies of wood, and the potential strength and size of their rowers.

We had some discussion on naval issues earlier, but never got to use them.

Would the Formians have much of an understanding of naval warfare outside of what the Ausel tell them?  Would they even bother transversing the sea or could they just teleport over?


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## s/LaSH (Mar 20, 2003)

The Stempa are guaranteed to be involved this time. They're the more clerical community, and probably have outer-planar contact abilities sufficient to determine the source of the threat.

(And while we're on Stempan divinity, I suspect they'll have their major deities, but also revere a host of minor spirits and things - household divinities, nature spirits like nymphs and dryads, and the like.)

As for the formian ability to make war over sea, I suspect they have probably conquered worlds enough to be familiar with aquatic tactics. While they themselves can't maneuver underwater, their fortress is watertight (as if that'll matter), and they can Dominate aquatic creatures to do their bidding in the subdual of a world. They also have a number of Apparati of Kwalish - perhaps a hundred, suitable for a sizable aquatic domination excursion and also surprisingly effective on the battlefield. Their Myrmachs can teleport without error, but cannot take anyone with them. Overall, while the Apparati can convey 200 troops maximum, they don't have the endurance to make it to the mainland - unless they sail on the surface with an Auselen fleet.

The Auselen developed large vessels to transport their creations to overseas markets. The formians will probably make use of these, and their workers can take a hastily manufactured wooden hull and Make It Whole very quickly, greatly hastening the hull-making process until they rival the Cresians in hull-laying speed.

Meanwhile, the Cresians and Stempans both have sizable navies, especially now that they've got greater trade over the area (one good thing about making peace with the army that came over the unknown horizon).

However, recall that Ausel is something like 8 days sail from the mainland, through fairly rough seas. An Auselen naval blockade has weather control magic.

As a result, the first raider force from Cresia meets Auselen patrol hulls five days out. The seas are rough, but the Auselen miraculously seem to always be sailing in calm water while all the waves break on the Cresian ships. This is no surprise; everyone knows the sorcerers guard their isle. But what the Auselen weren't expecting was a sustained lightning bombardment from their own stormclouds.

Call Lightning has a tremendous advantage at sea. What happens when a ship gets struck by lightning? A mast splits, structural integrity is compromised, and if the deck's wet the crew get unpleasantly strong tingly sensations. Although Auselen magi can retaliate with fireballs and lightning bolts and ice storms and walls of ice and cones of cold and even chain lightning, one good Dispel Magic can fairly reliably counter these offensive spells at Medium range (when they come in range, as readied actions), while Call Lightning is employed at Long range and results in repeated strokes of lightning - the Auselen can't use reliable counterspells, and even if they do use Dispel Magic, I believe it would only affect the individual bolts. It's like artillery, people! And who knows what happens when a ship breaks under the bombardment and the next bolt hits the water instead?

That, of course, is when defense stage two gets invoked. Cresian escort dolphin skiffs are easily co-opted by taskmasters when they come in range (Medium), and because they're just animals the formians don't have any qualms about smashing them into Cresian vessels at full speed.

And did I mention the dire sharks? Ausel has never relied solely on their geographical isolation for defence from the 'unworthy'. The dire sharks are a courtesy detail, so to speak, much in the way that Magrathea being 'lost' was only the first line of defence. Once the fleets close (not the full fleets, I should emphasise, simply a dozen or so ships from each), the dire sharks have been arranged into strike formations by their taskmasters - they can tear the keel from a Cresian vessel with one coordinated bite attack along its length.

Anything else with ideas and tactics for a naval battle? Who would win?


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## Sarellion (Mar 20, 2003)

Will Lightning have a big effect on oceanic water? 
If it has, just hammer a lightning near the dire sharks after you realize the tactics.

Are the dolphin skiffs still Cressias only naval ship?


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## The Goblin King (Mar 21, 2003)

I think anyone fighting Formorians for the first time is going to be very unnerved.  They are silent, organized, and never break.  The workers at least would be ordered to fight to the last bug unless the queen had other plans for them.

Apparati of Kwalish: Cool idea! What if merchant vessels were modified so that the bottom could open and close?  The ships would stop two miles from shore.  During the night the doors open and the apparati scuttle out onto the beach while the ships sail on.  Talk about a stealthy landing!

As for Dire Sharks: I think the Cressians could trump that with Awakened Sperm Whale Druids.


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## Omega Lord (Mar 21, 2003)

One spell that might see limited use here is simacrulum (sp?). Think about the tactical implications of this spell in war. Instead of training an apprentice, you can instead spend 1000 xp and have a completely loyal follower at half of your power. I can see a few Auslen heavy hitters using this spell infrequently to bolster the ranks without risking thier own hides. What if the dragon lords knew this spell , heck what if someone got ahold of one of the dragons scales? Dear lord, even a dragon at half power is a scary thing to behold. The downsides to this tactic is that it costs 1000 xp so you wont be seeing really heavy use of this spell and the fact that while the duplicates created by this spell are an alternative to training someone from scratch they have no naturall healing. However the shelf life of a sorceror duplicate would probably be much longer than a fighter duplicate (the whole being distanced from combat thing). Just some thoughts.


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## s/LaSH (Mar 21, 2003)

Hey yeah, Simulacrum is level 7! That spell is monstrously powerful, especially in the hands of dragons. Although I suspect only one of them would know of it, if the war were to heat up, it would become profligate.

The idea of hitting Dire Sharks with lightning is appealing. Does anyone know what sort of dissipative properties seawater has on lightning?

And Awakened Sperm Whale Druids... that's actually fairly likely. The last round didn't have much of a naval focus, so the immense Cresian aquatic territories were glossed over, but Cresia does have _immense_ underwater territory. The Cachalot Druids (it's faster to type and sounds cooler) would probably be willing to haul mighty vessels too; dolphin skiffs were never the only vessels Cresia could field, and whales make more sense for coastal shipping. As a sort of halfway point, orca (which are technically dolphins, but as big as small whales) have probably been used to haul small vessels and those that go up the Heaven River, although by this stage the central bore is big enough to accommodate whale-drawn freighters.

However, Cresia cares about natural balance. Ausel doesn't. What power Cresia might gain by gaining the allegiance of the seas, Ausel can counter with mass-produced monsters. At least in theory.

As for the terror of remorseless formian battle formations... the only formians yet seen by Cresian/Stempan marines are taskmasters floating in the wreckage of Auselen blockade ships. (If formians even float with all that insecty stuff...) We haven't had a proper land-based engagement yet, but when we do... boy, are the humans screwed.

Are there any additional comments for the initial naval expedition, or can we assume that the Auselen were weakened but managed to repel the Confederation Fleet with medium losses on both sides? One thing I haven't considered is Cresian aerial support... but then, the Auselen have certain major advantages in the air beyond their weather control...


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Mar 22, 2003)

I don't know that we can assume that Auselen manages to win the naval war.  Recall that the Confederation's goal is not invasion but destruction of shipping.

The call lightning tactic is but one advantage a druidic society has at sea.  

Others include:

A far greater ability to fight in fog, what with being able to summon it and having lots of friends with echolocation abilities if the druids aren't capable of changing themselves.
-I would assume this would negate much of the domination ability, doesn't the user of such an ability have to be able to see the target?

Really excellent frog troopers.  Alongside various awakened and companioned sharks and dolphins and what not, many druids are undoubtably not bad swimmers.  Combine this with the relatively low level warp wood spell and you have a reusable torpedo.

Dire Sharks are bad, but druids get dominate animal spells as well, and the Cressians are likely to have a great many more undersea allies, and more motivated ones.  Recall that the Confederation has been prepared for some sort of action against Cressia for some time.

Superior ships.  Being able to shape wood and pick out and grow the very best trees certainly results in better material and probably better ships.

Aerial Support.  While its true that Aerial supremacy is a contested issue the abundance of flying animal scouts that might be working for the Cressian, particularly bats, gives them a huge edge in intelligence.

Better logistics.  What Druid worth his training can't purify enough water to quench the thirst of a crew and aid in fishing.

Bards.  Orpheus saved the Argonauts many times.

From Stempa come incredible ship designs and very disciplined crews of tremendous strength.  Not too mention clerics of sufficiently high level in their domains to have almost certainly encountered control weather.  

From the Khanate come low level animated items that are immune to dommination and can man the riggings of enclosed ramming ships.

Also from the Khanate come sorcerors, not one's as grand as those of Ausel, but more than good enough to counter or dispel a great many of Ausel's offensive might spells.

Plus Ausel has large troop ships to defend where the Confederation force is nearly all wolf packs of offensive ships based out of tenders that stay well away from the fighting save as platforms for aerial assault, including the patented Ta'jinn bombing run.

Even one Pearl Harbor style attack on Ausel would be worth very heavy losses.

And all the while that Ausel's naval power is engaged in pyrrhic victory after pyrrhic victory the remote teams are entering or already on the island.


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## Tonguez (Mar 22, 2003)

*A Review*

*Auselen*: The sudden appearance of the Dark Fortress was a shock to the City of the Summoners, they sent out a war party to investigate, it never returned. But within a week the city had been destroyed and in its place the glistening plating of the Hive spread out like black ice crystals.  A Cressian Scout had flown over the sight o the back of a Roc but had quickly turned and returned home wityh the news of the destruction. 

Whilst on Ausel the High Council had met in urgency, as more of the Formian Warriors had been sighted exploring the Island. Their only option to free the workers and sue for peace.

The peace has been agreed and the Formian Queen looks towards the mainland eager for her dominion to spread. She knows that she needs to Auselen for their ships and for the supply of beasts they supply for the Hive to enslave - but just how long will she trust them?

Meanwhile the Cressian Forces have gathered and taken the offensive for the first time. Ships of Stempan design but Cressian make have been constructed in order to transport the many troops and the griffon and eagle air units. The Cachalot Druids stand ready with their Cetacean forces along with their jellyfish and octopi companions.

The first fleet has already encountered the Auselen Naval Ring and a furious battle has been waged with no clear winner but both sides now with a better understanding of the others ability.

In her Hive the Queen watches and ponders and schemes...

*LOTS of QUESTIONS*

1.What motivation do Formians actually have? Why is the Queen working wih the Ausel? Who is in control (ie is she using them or they using her?)

2. Where is this War going to be waged? - on Ausel or in Cressia?

3. What do Formian tactics actually look like? - is it just "SWARM -destroy every threat in your path-ignore your wounded-show no fear" or do the Myrmarch and Taskmasters actually have some cunning strategy?

4. iirc Formians must be within 50 feet of the Hive for the Hivemind effect to work - is this correct and does that make the queen vunerable?

5. What do the Ausel actually expect to achieve?

6. Don't ya just wish their was a morale mechanic?

* The Glistening Black Plating (Chitin) of the Hive-Fortress was just a flavour addition for me - I love the image of Formian workers using the bodies of the Formian (and other) dead as building materials -cannibilisign the corpses,  reshaping and reforming it as required...


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## The Goblin King (Mar 22, 2003)

Here is another map.  The red circle shows the 50 mile range of the queens telepathy.  The formorians need either more queens or the help of the humans.  Taking over Auselen is the first step towards domination of the planet. However, if it is not possible to set up any more queens so the whole island is covered I think that an alliance would look profitable.


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Mar 22, 2003)

I would think that an alliance is also in the nature of both the Auselen and this particular group of outsiders.

To the Auselen the Outsiders represent a magical power they have never seen the equal of and high degree of naivete.

To the Outsiders the Auselen seem to be very forthright and organized in a world that is terribly chaotic.   The abundance of tamed and created creatures reinforces this idea, that and the quickly offered Auselen explanation and 'evidence' that the Summoners guild was being manipulated by the terrible forces of chaos that threaten them all.


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## s/LaSH (Mar 22, 2003)

Formian Tactics

The formians have great numbers in this conflict, which you'd think would preclude them to horde tactics. However, they haven't existed in a vacuum until their arrival on Ausel. They've conquered many wildly varied worlds, and faced armies of other extraplanar factions. In fact, considering their alignment, they're probably currently at war with the slaadi, their main enemies.

The average slaad is much tougher than a formian. A formian warrior is roughly human-sized (maybe slightly more considering its centauroid body). A red or blue slaad (the most common slaadi) are Large creatures, probably close to ten feet tall and damn ugly. It relies more on its natural reach and damage capabilities than tactics or weaponry, and is generally unpredictable, being a creature of pure chaos.

So to overcome the slaadi, the formians developed a strategy. Slaadi cannot be counted upon to work as a team, therefore: divide and conquer. Bring maximum force to bear on the individual slaadi and wear them down. The formian battle unit is six strong; six warriors to a slaad, they quickly surround and anihilate the slaad with their poisonous stingers. Formians never developed a mass archery phase for their battle plans; the slaad sometimes employ magical assaults, but never used missile weapons and the formians largely relied on their innate spell resistance. The myrmachs use javelins, but that's about it - the myrmachs are elites, anyway.

Marching in units of 6, the formians nevertheless stick together in larger groups - six units make a Task, six Tasks make a Myrm of 216 warriors. Six myrms make a Legion of 1296 warriors. At current count, there are three hundred and eighty-six legions operating out of the fortress. A Legion marches together, unless the area is deemed 'secure'.

A secure region is an area roughly a square mile in size. One legion advances to the far end and patrols the border. It is now secure from reinforcements. Another legion splits up and thoroughly works through the area, attempting to take captives before Taskmasters or, failing capture, killing anything that moves - but they don't like doing that.

The 50-mile hive mind is a problem for extended campaigns, but there's a fix for this: the taskmasters. They have telepathy with 100-foot range, and are therefore capable of coordinating a tactical assault with absolute silence, albeit from the back. Overall strategic communication is achieved by the myrmachs; they can teleport without error at will - _and_ they can carry 600lb with them! That's certainly enough for a taskmaster or a warrior. Myrmachs therefore remain in communication with their home base and their field commanders at will.

Formian communication is reliant on knowledge of the myrmach's landing zone. For this reason, formians construct a small fortress in every square mile of conquered territory, where myrmachs can 'port in and coordinate with troop movements. (This fortress is build out of whatever comes to hand - stone, trees, baked clay. The subaquatic fortresses are typically created later, because they have to be watertight and have neat windows - typically permanent walls of force.)

Conquered formian territory is arranged in hexagonal or square patterns. The formian worker populace will eventually move in and transform each hex or square into one specific type, normally based on what it currently is: forests will have the gaps filled in, farms will be amalgamated and extended into huge level terraces, cities will expand to the edge of their hex and then build upwards. However, the formians don't have the time to do this... yet.

Against human opponents, the anti-slaadi tactics won't be so useful. The first thing the formians won't expect is archers. The second thing is battle lines - they expect to flood forwards in their own line, each unit splitting off when they encounter an enemy. If a human line can stand strong, the encircling tactics of a formian horde will fail. (Formians are still formidable opponents, but they're not quite so formidable if they're fighting you one-on-one, as opposed to six-on-one.)


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## GladiusNP (Mar 22, 2003)

s/LASH.... Inspiring post.  

Can anyone imagine the first battle?  Here the Cressians are, cutting down the Formians with their Javelins, when suddenly, in _perfect unison_ all of the Formian, without any commands,  suddenly change their tactics - ie, start using shields.  The Deltanes vs. Formians?  Do the Formians know of silver's effect?  If so, this will really limit the usefulness of the Deltanes. 

I can't imagine that the hive-queen has yet to encounter lycanthropes...  anyway, the Cressians are also at a mobility disadvantage, but more so than last time, because the Formians don't have to wait around for the Heaven River troops like the centaurs did.  Though I suppose the Ausel might slow them down... 

Just a short one this time.


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## s/LaSH (Mar 22, 2003)

Nice idea about the shields, GladiusNP.

That actually brings up another advantage that the formians have should they march to war: coordination. If the enemy has a tactic, they will get to use it once. The formians will disseminate that information across their territory within 10 minutes, no matter how many miles wide it is, and be ready for it forever after.


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## The Goblin King (Mar 23, 2003)

The Stempa should come ashore with a few innovations.  First, the War Wagon.  These were developed during skirmishes with the Ti'Jinn.  Even with chariots the Stempan armies could not match the mobility of the centaurs.  However, they made up for it with raw firepower.  These armored wagons are arranged in a square formation.  From behind cover the crossbowman can mass fire against the enemy.  Unlike the Hussites the Stempa don't use dray animals to pull the wagons but rather Ogres.  The driver of each wagon is also the Ogres handler.  When not pulling them the Ogres are trained to defend the wagons.  The Stempan also employ large numbers of goblins with spears set to discourage charges.

The second is an older invention that was created when the city-states were fighting each other.  The mobile siege tower provides high ground.  Spellcasters in towers would have an excellent field of view.  They will need it to cast counterspells (and Harm!!).  Towers will be important later when or if formorian strongholds need to be taken.

In the rear areas Clerics will tend to the wounded.  They have Heal, Regenerate and Resurrection.  I think this would change the dynamics of war a little.  Soldiers would be less likely to break if they know they can be healed or get a Raise Dead afterwards.  Also, they would leave no one behind.  Not only do you have to be able to count on your buddy to watch your back in a battle you also have to be able to count on him to carry your corpse out.  Highly modivated armies will do better while conscripts will be next to useless.

One thing I was unsure about was how many animated objects the Stempan have.  I imagined huge war engines rolling across the battlefield but after looking at the cost I don't think they could have more then a dozen.

I just noticed Holy Word is 7th level!!  I think that spell is going to be cast a lot.


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Mar 23, 2003)

I think the war will actually occur on three fronts.

First, a lot of the coolest action will probably happen on the water, but...

Ausel probably can't prevent the small team strategy from working, indeed I see it as critical to the eventual success of the war,  I mean c'mon who can't see this as turning into a real war of the lance style event where small groups make the critical difference in several areas and one small group in particular really destabilizes the Formians and their Ausel allies.

If Ausel and the Formians really make an effort they can probably land an invasion force in Cressia, and while supplying it might be difficult I still think it impossible for Cressia to prevent them.

The Cressian conflict is probably where we'll see the war chariots and such.


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## s/LaSH (Mar 23, 2003)

If the formians launch an attack, the Cresians are in trouble. And the jinn, for that matter - together, they're outnumbered five to one by creatures the size of ponies. While an experienced centaur might be a match for a basic formian warrior, there are just too many of them - even facing missile fire, the formians would win out through sheer force of numbers.

At least, that's the theory, and the Queen is eager to see it in action, being a practical sort. How do the formians cross the ocean? They have a few Auselen transport vessels, but it will take them a while to put together a fleet big enough to accommodate their full legions. Probably months to fell the forests of Ausel and dredge the depths for precious metals. Nevertheless, one legion can be carried on three transport vessels, and Ausel probably has at least fifty transports - so shall we say that an initial pacification force of 16 legions (1296 warriors apiece) is sent over? While that's only slightly over twenty thousand troops, they still outnumber a Tamarch two to one, and Cresia has never been as militant as Ta'jinn, so probably can't expect to field more than twenty thousand troops against the formians themselves.

Stempan reinforcements, on the other hand... the idea of battle wagons (portable mini-fortresses) would certainly be in their national character. I expect thirty thousand troops could be mobilised from Stempa, given the numbers from the last round, including support troops like hobgoblins and ogres and clerics. The clerics would be useful in battle, certainly - largely as spontaneous healers, but a force that comes to rely on its healers will probably spend most of its time falling back to the clerics and not fighting, which is awful as far as tactics go. No, clerics are pretty good fighters themselves - I can see them on the front lines, occasionally stopping to heal a comrade, then smashing in another formian. Of course, the clerics are slightly more fragile than the warriors, so each cleric would have an escort of four veteran troopers to keep them safe and screen them when they're casting.

Unfortunately, while Holy Word would carve a swathe through formian armies, there probably aren't more than a few dozen fighting-age clerics who can cast it. It's seventh level, right on the edge of magic for this scenario. I expect that only heroes will employ Holy Word - but it will be an awesome weapon if the heroes manage to reach the formian fortress on Ausel.

Anyway, as things currently stand:

A few bands of heroes are exploring Ausel.

The formians are setting sail for the mainland.

Cresia has had little time to prepare, but they do have excellent scouting abilities... they'll be able to bring their fleet to bear on the formian armada.

The formians have a pet dragon.

I think that last one is likely to cause the most problems. A dragon, especially one of the great wyrms that lead Ausel, is going to wreak absolute havoc on any battlefield, naval or not. And if the formians decide to use it in a suicide maneuver, they don't really care. (In fact, it's probably using a simulacrum at the formian's order.)

We just need to decide what colour this dragon is.


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## s/LaSH (Mar 24, 2003)

Bump?

I should probably do some art from this setting at some point... Babylonian werewolves and Mongol centaurs are just too cool an image to pass up, really. If only I weren't so lazy.


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Mar 24, 2003)

I'm trying to get through a glut of coursework, but I've got an idea for how the Greater Cressian Remote Forces would work.

In terms of the invasion I would presume that the Auselen/Formian forces would organize themselves into two waves.   There might be an argument against this based on the Formian Hive mentality, but trying to land all of your expeditionary forces in one go simply isn't a good idea if your expecting resistance.

Still 20,000 might make a good number for the initial invasion force.   The foriegn Tamarch would be there to make up the core of the resistance, but I would imagine that the Cressians could eventually pull up somewhere in the nieghborhood of 50,000 men should they bring all the militias to the front.  Recall that a sunstantial portion of their population is at least partially militarized.  With another 10,000 men each from Stempa and various allies such as the Khannate and other forces from the empty quarter, let's say the counter-invasion force numbers 50,000 initially with the potential for many more reinforcements and replenishing units.  

The desparity in numbers is probably a little misleading since even with the home field advantage the Ausel and Formians are going to be considerably better powered than their opponents.


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## Tonguez (Mar 25, 2003)

Thre trouble I'm having is imagining just how a Formian army works and how the Auselen fit into its tactics. All I can imagine is a mass of Formians marching forward and destroying everything they meet, they don't change direction or formation unless it is to pursue a new victim and overcome them with overwhelming numbers. Individual Formians might die but the others in the legion don't stop or even look they go straight over the top and keeping marching relentlessly forward. Then behind them come the Workers who gather up the peices of the fallen formians and reconstitute them as Task Master Towers or war machines!

The Cressians start by using their tried and true hit and run tactics only to find that they don't work. Formians never break ranks and never get routed. 

The Cressians launch their atlatl propelled spears and fell a few Formians - the legion keeps coming

A few Deltanes attack the Formian flank tearing into the Formian warriors arrayed they. A few Formians break off and surround the Deltane eventually killing her- the legion keeps coming 

Stempa mecenaries form a Spear wall and three ranks of Formians are killed to no avail- the legion keeps coming

The Cressians use Briar web to try and half the Formian Advance
the Formian Legion use the corpses of their dead to build bridges and course ways to climb up and over the Cressian Defensive Line 

The Formians are unstoppable and soon the Cressians turn and flee - the legion keeps coming!

What are the Auselen doing during all this time?
Also what has happened to the Hive? - if the Formian Legion is in Cressia (and thus outside the 50 mile Hivemind radius) does the Fortress move and follow them? Or do the Tasks Masters teleport back and forth between the Hive and the Cressian fronline?

Is this reliance on Teleport the weakness which will finally be exploited by the Cressians?


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## Tonguez (Mar 25, 2003)

Oh yeah as to the Dragon I think we should limit it to CR 12 inorder for the Cressians to stand a chance - thats a Juvenile Gold, a Young Adult Red, an Adult Green, or Mature White


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## The Goblin King (Mar 25, 2003)

A naval blockade would be best.  It is much easier to sink the ships then to defeat the formorians once they land.

The Confederacy has experience with using air units.  Perhaps the Griffons, Giant Eagles, and Rocs could help hold the line?  Dropping rocks on the enemy while staying out of range might work.  Alchemists fire won't work because of the energy resistance?

Salvation might come from another direction.  I'm still working on the map.  To the southeast I'm putting a desert.  I had visions of Halflings riding Purple Worms fremen-style.    To the north the steppes give way to dark forests inhabited by Gnolls.  Beyond the eastern barrier mountains lies the Sea of Broken Glass.  The Harpies which live on the 'islands' there are xenophobic but form an important link in the trade route which leads to the Mysterious East.


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Mar 25, 2003)

What about a bronze?  The aquatic nature of this conflict would make that a lot of trouble for the Cressians, but it would also make it impossible to explain its absence in the conflict here to fore.

I don't at all know what the tactics of the Ausel invasion force would be.  They've basically got superlight troops, great ships, and better magic.  I think there will probably be a variety of unit tactics and lots of sneakery.  Will give it some thought and write more later.

In terms of Formian tactics I think I have a better idea.  The idea of a Formian wave is frightening, but also strikes me as unlikely.  The Soldiers are only ECL 3 afterall and they don't have much in the way of missile weapons.  They might use a tactic like this when invading a place from the security of their base and hivemind radius.  The overall tactic, doesn't make sense in terms of their limited numbers on this plane and the tactics they must use to coordinate with each other and to fight opponents like Slaadi. 

You can't just ignore an individual Slaadi in the conviction that the tide as a whole will finish it off.  For creatures like the Formians to fight the Slaadi they must be tactically clever and coordinated on a very fine level to pursue and destroy an Slaad they come into contact with before it can summon more of its fellows or implant too many of their own number.

Regardless I would imagine that they would be better served fighting as a highly coordinated web of small units.  In this system I would guess that the Formians would basically follow the organization outlined in the Monster Manual.   One Myrmach would command one twleve man groups of warriors and two eight man groups of workers.   This insures that the groups of warriors have commanders and that two cure serious wound spells may be cast upon the battle groups each round.  This would be a platoon.

Given the nature of the conflict I would presume that each platoon would also be accompanied by a taskmaster.  This taskmaster would enable the platoon to enjoy the benefits of the hivemind to at least a limited extent, more importantly it allows the individual platoons to maintain communication with central command.  Each platoon is accompanied by two individuals dominated by taskmasters at central and regional command.   The infinite range on dominated telepathy enables these taskmasters to maintain communication between the platoon and the command groups.  If a platoon looses its communicator then one of the myrmachs at command will teleport another dominated individual to the platoons last known location.

As a reflection of the number of individuals that a taskmaster may dominate, platoons are organized into groups of four and so on up the chain of command.   Each command group consists of two to four myrmachs, a conscription team of four taskmasters, and two eight man groups of workers.   

The basic strategic unit of the Formian invasion is the March.   This consists of 64 platoons and at least 2000 formians counting the command groups, a minumum number of dominated individuals, and the maximum number of myrmachs plus an additional four at march command for use as an emergency strike team.  Each march consists of four paths, each path of four courses, and each course of four platoons.

Let's say that there are four Marches of Formians in the invasion force with the remaining 2000 members of the Formian invasion force consisting of less organized forces of workers, conscripts, taskmasters, and myrmachs specializing in non-front line command roles such as scholars, engineers, educators, translators, strategists, craftsmen, and commandos.  

Approximately half of this group would be taken up by a group of taskmasters and Myrmachs who specialize in dominating and commanding a unit of the best flying and swimming creatures that the Formians could find.  They can't dominate anything of greater size than large, but concievably that could be something like 400 chimera flying and fighting in perfect formation.

I think that this formation actually makes the fight both more and less hard for the Cressians.  The Formians are likely to fight in very close formation and somewhat conservatively given their desire to stay within and protect their limited command and control system.  On the other hand their magical abilities make this a much more viable strategy for them than most other creatures, their heavy melee formation should make a perfect complement for the light missile heavy formations of the Ausel, the myrmachs' emphasis on divination spells grants their forces great intelligence, the taskmasters and workers make occupation really easy, and their limited command and control is still very good.    

Still, the rough heavily fortified terrain of Cressia, the superior numbers and more varied forces of the defenders, and the tremendous will and tenacity of the defenders should make the invasion front an extremely interesting prospect.


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## GladiusNP (Mar 26, 2003)

Okay - so the war is three fronts.  Unless we are only interested in the naval actions, I think it's safe to assume that the Formians land in significant numbers - was 8000 the number that have entered the plane of Cressia?  Or was that the number that are on the mainland?  I’d vote for the second, with the Formians gating in more and more troops all the time, but that’s just me.  

The Formians do seem fearsome, but I think the mindless drone horde is a little simplistic.  These guys would perfectly coordinate everything, and more of a swarm over things – anyone seen ants on a caterpillar?  I’m thinking of a mass of Formians tearing into a wall, or onto an ogre… 

With regard to the ‘hero’ campaign on Ausel, I think that’s pretty cool.  They’d be after the dragon-mages, and eventually shut the portal.  Definitely War of the Lance.  Anyway, the landing on the mainland…

Auselen mages and Cressian druids supported by Clerics of Sirene and Pisenes, clash from far-off, the Druids attempting, from skiffs, Stempan Galleys, and towers on the shore (wood-shaped trees?) engage in a fearsome magical battle.  After two days of storms, winds, lightning, flames, and battle with summoned creatures, four Apparati of Kwalish crawl onto a beach in the north of Cressia, disgorging a load of Formians, who begin to immediately construct fortifications, as soldiers spread out to establish a perimeter, driving back the druids.  Cressian forces, waiting for word of any landings from the shore-watch, begin to march, hoping to drive the Formians back into the sea. 

Now unsupported by Druids from the coastline, the Greater Cressian ships withdraw.  The Cressians begin their first battle with the Formians in force – though the hunts on Ausel have sent some information back.

What about using the Roc as a sort of mobile command centre?  A Druid, the huntmaster of all of Cressia (what title would this be?), and a very elite group of Deltanes ride it from place to place, giving them a very good idea of how the campaign is going.

Anyway, any problems with the above?


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Mar 26, 2003)

GladiusNP said:
			
		

> * Anyway, any problems with the above? *




Nope.  

I think the numbers of the forces involved in the Cressian conflict are larger based on what we have said previosly.  8,000 seems like a good group of formians for the invasion force.  I'd assume a roughly equal or slightly smaller number of Ausel.  We are taking about a very large force, but it has to be to stand any chance against the numbers that Greater Cressia can throw at it.

If I were the Cressians I would have put a lot of my best druids on the water, every ship downed is a tremendous advantage and druids are great in naval combat.

I would suspect that the Ausel/Formian flotilla manages to unload everything pretty well, but gets utterly crushed after it does so.  Loosing their dominators and formians to the land effort as well as its best Ausel magic support weakens their strength considerably and Greater Cressia has been preparing just such a turn.

After the invasion Greater Cressian control of the seas, save for Ausel's Coastal region is all but assured.

The Cressians then work to evacuate as much of their population as possible onto the Jungaan island and into the deep interior.  Hoping to avoid giving the Formians any conscripts.


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## Tonguez (Mar 27, 2003)

GladiusNP said:
			
		

> *What about using the Roc as a sort of mobile command centre?  A Druid, the huntmaster of all of Cressia (what title would this be?), and a very elite group of Deltanes ride it from place to place, giving them a very good idea of how the campaign is going.
> 
> Anyway, any problems with the above? *




I think Huntmaster is itself a pretty good title for this Druid - so the Cressian Fieldmarshall is called the Hunt Master (cool)

The Roc idea is great but I'd replace the Delatanes with Bards (and some scorcerers/wizards) who use their buff abilities on the troops below and also act as a communications/command center sending and recieiving messages (whispering wind 1 mile/level) 

I agree with Dr. Strangemonkey about the Cressians sending out druids to sink the Auselen ships AFTER the Formian landing - it cuts of their retreat and now gives Cressians dominance on the water - and access to Jonga.

Against the supremely organised Formians the Old Cressian Guerilla tactics aren't going to work quite as well as they did in the past  but the Roc Command center does give them the ability to coordinate better. 

The Formians are attacked on multiple fronts at once including summoned creatures and spells being 'dropped' on the center ranks (and thus attacking from the center). Initially this has only minor effect but it does slow the Formians down as they break off into smaller platoons. The Cressians buffed by the Bards (with some kind of amplifier) and the Scorcerers then target the Myrmarch of each Platoon before tearing into the warriors and workers

Its slow but it might stand a chance


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## s/LaSH (Mar 27, 2003)

The important question is this: how much of the formian command structure is known to the Cresians?

Myrmachs have big bronze helmets. That's a given. Thus, they're pretty visible targets. There's just one problem - SR 25. You'd have to have 5th level casters to take one out at all, and even then they have a better chance of unloading their arsenal into the myrmach without it being scratched than to beat that SR. A 50/50 split is achieved at 15th level, the legendary heroes of this round.

The myrmachs are obvious targets. It won't take more than a day for everyone to figure out that they're the net that holds a formian army together. Doing something about it, however, is completely different. A myrmach is highly maneuverable, and is likely to show up behind the lines amongst the taskmasters (who have long-range domination attacks and are fairly spell resistant themselves) to relay orders. Drop a Call Lightning on his head, and he normally shrugs it off and 'ports away - possibly behind you. Where he either charms you, drops a Dictum or Order's Wrath on your formation (I don't see large numbers of Cresians being lawful; they're druidic, after all, so many of them are likely neutral something rather than lawful), or tears your head off with his gnashing mandibles (2d6+2 rivals even a Stempan khopesh, which I'm guessing approaches a greatsword). Then they 'port out again, before a concerted military response can catch them.

Thus, after a couple of days the Cresians discover that they need special tactics to take down the myrmachs. They 'port, they have fast healing, and they're nearly invulnerable to offensive magic. The solution? Bodyguards for the casters. The biggest, toughest troops hang around with the casters and use them as bait for myrmachs. Using a _dimensional anchor_ is very difficult, largely because it's 4th level - only a few of the Ta'jinn Godsbloods will have access to it. The other solution is to keep the myrmach off balance with a constant barrage of attacks, breaking its concentration. Grappling it is probably stupid (it's the size of a horse), but myrmachs have no ranks in concentration. I checked. The only bonus they have is +4 from Constitution. Teleport without error is a 7th level spell. The base DC for the check is 17 + damage dealt. A couple of hits on a myrmach will keep it in place even if they're dealt by a level 1 commoner. Unfortunately, it has AC 28, so only high-level (buffed?) guards can do this reliably. They could well be all over it the moment it 'ports in, but their blows would just bounce off...

Anyway, through use of myrmach-baiting, the cresians put the fear of counterreprisal into the formian elite. Now, although they might sacrifice a few myrmachs every now and then to test the waters, the myrmachs stay back and operate away from enemy casters. In turn, the most elite Cresian battlefield units are held in reserve, guarding the heavy artillery. I think the formians may have come off best in this tactical exchange.


Mist in battle: This is a perfect counter for the formian reliance on teleporting elites. Cresians have long since learned to coordinate by shouted orders (they have skilled bards) and rely largely on their other senses for coordination. Formians can still 'port, but they don't know where to 'port if they can't see what's going on. Mist slows down the order of battle for them, and unless they're in the hivemind radius, they're completely thrown out by it - taskmaster domination of their troops only goes to the extent of understanding what's happening to them, rather than where or who is doing it.

The misty rennaisance is in full force...


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Mar 28, 2003)

Oh heck yeah, this conflict is going to give a whole new literal meaning to fog of war.  The formians have no special senses at all save where they can dominate something that does, where the Cressians have plenty.

BTW, that indirect fire with the arrows thing is going to come in real handy in this conflict.  The Formians have no missile weapons save for what the Ausel give them.

I would also think that the Confederated forces are going to have use every advantage to slow down the Formian tight formations.

In terms of using magic on the myrmachs the real coup is to use spells like to rock to mud that will effect the environment around them.

That and if the Cressians can lure the myrmachs away from their men they can take advantage of that opportunity to take out the now heavily weakened platoon.

I still think guerrilla tactics combined with cleverly defended strongholds are the proper defense.   A formal battle with the Formians and Ausel would simply be impossible unless you could set it up to exhaust all of their defenses with overwhelming mobile number.

And even then the dominators are a hideously powerful long range attack and the possiblity of a formation of myrmachs suddenly appearing among your command group while the whole of your ranks are trying to defend themselves from Ausel attacks are just too terrible to contemplate.


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Apr 4, 2003)

I am bumping this thread to make certain that it's well truly gone and dead and not simply forgotten.

If it is, in fact, just forgotten then I suggest we think about writing up the final end game of the alien invasion and begin setting up for the next round.

This next round should be something like the dark ages with all the former alliances undone by this war and new cultures developing in the ashes.


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## The Goblin King (Apr 5, 2003)

I had an evil idea today.  The Confederacy has the upper hand.  No doubt as they have numbers and home ground.  The leader of the Stempan army, a Hobgoblin Cleric by the name of Riishthrack, does not like this war.  He feels that it was senseless to provoke the Auselen in the first place and now the Confederacy is getting what it deserves.  He also has a grudge against the generals of the Ta'Jinn and Cressian armies.  They used to go on adventures togather until Riishthracks love died.  He feels it is the others fault but also blames himself for letting her come along.  In reality it was no ones fault but the Barrow-Wight who slew her.  These things happen when you are an adventurer.  After that the group broke up and Riishthrack went back to Stempa.  He became a well respected leader of the people.  The Stempan army is fiercely loyal to him.  With the help of his supporters back home he declares the Treaty of the Confederacy broken.  Riishthrack leads his army off the field and back to Stempa.  There he crowns himself emperor.  Now, I see this as a popular revolt.  The people love him and he has the army on his side.  The Cressians and Ta'Jinn see things differently and declare war on Stempa to free them from tyranny.

I have always imagined the Stempa as being a mostly Lawful people.  The Cressians are mostly Neutral and the Ta'Jinn are Chaotic.  I'm not sure why I think of th Ta'Jinn as being Chaotic.  I guess its something about the wide open plains.  The Auselen are of course Lawful Evil.  The Stempa and Auselen both have something in common.  They are Law abiding peoples who are being attacked by the Confederacy.  The Stempa and Auselen forge a new treaty and the Empire is born.  The enemy of my enemy is my friend and all that.  Thus, the great war is started.  The war to end all wars.  Law versus Chaos.

In the end it comes down to a final apocalyptic battle between the two forces.  On the Heavens River lies the Bridge of Lowrp.  Also called the Gate to Jinn this great work of architecture is the main path by which trade flows in and out of the plains.  Were this city to fall the Ta'Jinn would be done for.  Both armies pull out everything they have including hiring mercenaries.  The Confederacy convinces some Hill Giant warbands to help them while the Empire presses Goblin Worg riders into service.  The battle is titantic and lasts several days.  So much blood is spilled on the Bridge of Lowrp that the timbers are stained red.  To this day it is also known as the Red Bridge.  The Confederacy is victorious though it is a pyrrhic victory.


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## ajanders (Apr 5, 2003)

*Cressians Vs. Formians (and everyone else)*

Sorry to have missed this particular bit of excitement.
Let me think a little here...
The central conflict, I think, is going to be between centralized and decentralized force structures.
The key, however, is going to be determining the total intelligence available to each side, as both the Cressians and their allies and the Formians have very good communications.
When we look at a Formian warrior, we see from the Monster Manual it has Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 11: that is to say, it appears pretty much like the average human mentally.  It is described as "able to communicate battle plans and make reports to their commanders" (myrmarchs).
If the text is taken literally, the Cressians have a decided advantage over the Formians.  While a warrior can communicate a battle plan, it can't form one.  Unless it's in constant communication with a Myrmarch,it's probably running on "standard procedures", which may be complex but will not be adapted to the terrain or circumstances.  It will never be able to improvise a response.
Figure it's like a fairly powerful computer, but it doesn't create responses to things, it just searches though the formian version of a Select Case statement until it finds something to do.  Or explains the situation to higher authority and waits for instructions.
(Because of this limitation, by the bye, I think Dr. Strangemonkey's force structure is actually better than S/Lash's.)
The Cresian's can work out how to exploit this by shifting tactics  constantly, thereby overloading the Myrmarchs mental capacity or communications bandwidth.
That could be done with something as simple as switching from two-handed weapons to sword and shield, then back.
Or by Deltanes shifting from wolf to man.
It could also be handled with different actions like attempting bull rushes, then weapon attacks.
Once the Myrmarch and his warriors have been confused, they should be easier to kill.
Now if you assume the warriors can make plans as well as the average warrior, this plan goes to heck.  I suspect the Cresians are going to lose then.

Two final questions to ponder, because I'm not sure about them myself?
Would the gods get involved?
Do Formains know about combined arms tactics?  If so, how much?


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Apr 5, 2003)

I had a couple of ideas for god involvement.

But the one I'd like to share is that I believe that the Confederacy will start developing more and better divination spells.   As a result of this and their highly effective command structure they develop a system for figuring out where the central portions of the Formian command net are located.  

They then start taking out the command net from the top down over the course of a horrible series of days and using their very best teams of adventurers, those that aren't in Ausel, the Ausel members of the invasion force together with many of the remaining Myrmachs retaliate by staging a daring raid on the memorial city in which the confederacies headquarters are concentrated.

Over the course of this brief high level campaign the total ranks of the major leveled characters for both sides of the conflict become decimated and suffer particularly high casualties at the ends of the spectrum just below their most powerful characters.  

The Formian force is now operating based on 50% of its original officer corps forcing it to play a defensive role in order to maintain command and control.  The Ausel force, however, suddenly finds itself in a much freer position as their uppermost ranks of sorcerous overlords were heavily hurt, but the rest of their forces are largely preserved.

The Cressians loose a substantial portion of the wizarding corps, but the most important casualties are the deaths of the Stempan Oracles, Cressian Hierophants, and Khanate Seer Princes who formed the heart of the divine aspect of the alliance.   The magical rift caused by their deaths and the deaths of the high dragon scions who lead the attack against them sends a rift running through the ritual magics that bound the Confederation in the protections of the gods.

This has three important effects.  

First, it allows the Formians to drop in a second queen.

Second, it pisses off the gods a great great deal.

Third, it silences the connections between the Stempan commanders and their oracles.   This is what really pushes the hobgoblin king over the edge and shocks the entire Stempan culture into a state of high hysteria and chaos. 

The Confederation front dissolves into chaos.

The Ausel front becomes far far far grimmer and more terrible with the arrival of the second queen and the attentions of the gods.


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## The Goblin King (Apr 5, 2003)

I had briefly considered Divine intervention.  I had the image of Sky Mother and Field Father showing up.  The entire battle instantly halts as all eyes turn to the gods.

But my DM instincts took over.  I always use a light touch when it comes to gods interacting with players.


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Apr 5, 2003)

I agree, in general, there are situations that merit heavy and obvious divine intervention.  Though in this case I think the primary aid will be Homeric in quality with the gods being really impressive at cancelling each other out, wiping the floor with mooks, and inspiring heroes to amazing new levels of heroism only to screw them over in the end.


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## ajanders (Apr 5, 2003)

*When Cresians attack, or why Machiavelli was right*

(quote)
But the one I'd like to share is that I believe that the Confederacy will start developing more and better divination spells. As a result of this and their highly effective command structure they develop a system for figuring out where the central portions of the Formian command net are located. 

They then start taking out the command net from the top down over the course of a horrible series of days and using their very best teams of adventurers, those that aren't in Ausel, the Ausel members of the invasion force together with many of the remaining Myrmachs retaliate by staging a daring raid on the memorial city in which the confederacies headquarters are concentrated.
(end quote)
I'm not sure this would be a surgical strike.
The Ausel have never been really much loved by the mainland cultures.  They raid, they trade in arms, they don't believe in gods, they practice necromancy, conjure fiends, and pervert nature, and now they're selling out the prime material plane to a bunch of magic bugs. 
The Stempan oracles use their powers to see the whole grisly spectacle of Auselen history and are completely out of use for them.
After they explain things to the Ta'jinn and the Cresians, it's agreed all the way around.  The Stempans and the Ta'jinn are ready for a holy war to make sure the Auselen stay out of the other planes for the rest of time...heck, next time it could be abyssal ants that come over from the next plane.
The senior Cresian Huntmaster present says something enigmatic about calling some butterfly friends of his to see what they can do.
The Stempans and Ta'jinn go back to thumping Formians as best they can: while they can't pull the same trick on the army twice, they have been able to come up with new tricks pretty consistently.
Trading space for time is embarrassing in that regard, but very helpful, because the Formians have to keep readapting to the terrain with every new landform, which is just one more thing for them to worry about.

The Huntmaster, meanwhile, goes to talk with his bardic friends.  Control Water, for some odd reason, is not a druidic spell.  But it is a fifth level spell for bards.  Figure about half a dozen bards throughout the Cresian nation can cast it.  They get on a ship, go out to see, get a bearing on the Auselen coast at least and the Hive queen at most, and begin casting raise water.
After a few minutes, they get a 20 foot high 600 foot long wall of water.
A Cresian druid casts Control winds and blows the whole thing towards the Auselen coast at 25 miles an hour.
(Now, this may be a generous reading of both spells combined, I'll admit.  But if a player came to me with a spell called Tidal Wave  that had these dimensions, I'd probably only let it be 300 feet long, but I'd say it was 7th level.  So this kind of magic could well be out there, if we permit non SRD spells to exist)
As the Cresians break open a fantasy Bud, one of the bards asks the Huntmaster "What do we say when people ask us what happened today?"
The Huntmaster smiles wolfishly.  "Just tell them the surf's up.  Waayy up..."


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Apr 5, 2003)

Wouldn't entirely solve the problem, but it is freakin nasty.  And clever.


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## The Goblin King (Apr 5, 2003)

I wonder how many castings of Earthquake it would take to cause an island to sink to the bottom of the ocean?   Atlantis anyone?


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Apr 5, 2003)

what you would really need are successive castings and dispellings of a volcano spell.


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## s/LaSH (Apr 6, 2003)

Earthquake will affect a 70 foot radius from a maximum-level caster. You need 72 castings to affect 1 mile of coast, and Ausel is 100 miles long.

It's just not practical at this stage, I'm sorry. (And isn't it 8th level, outside the parameters of Round 4?)

Be that as it may, the idea of mass-scale magic through combos is attractive.

So, what's the ultimate solution to this round? Looks to me like the formian armies are probably winning on the ground, but elitist conflict removes the leaders from virtually all sides... and the formians are the most affected by loss of leadership.

What thinks everyone else?

(I looked for the thread a few days ago, but I couldn't find it. (?) Thanks, Strangemonkey.)


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Apr 6, 2003)

That sounds about right to me.

I figure we'll go all Orson Scott Card on this and say the elite conflicts in Ausel, fueled by divine inspiration/intervention, eliminate the elder queen, but that the younger queen, with less than fully developed abilities remains alive and infused with the dispersed essence of the final battle between the elder queen, the avatars, and the dragon elders.  Resulting in a much less aggressive entity.  Though still with a lot of growing up to do.

Let's also say that the hideous encounters that end it all also create true dragon hatchlings who are taken off by the monks to be raised into beings of various sorts.  And that the conflict has changed the nature of the gods.

In particular, the voices of the gods are silenced and Stempa, the Ta'jinn, and Cressia no longer have recourse to the level of divine quidance they had previously enjoyed.

Everything descends into an era much like the dark age of ancient Greece and we head off into the next round.

Or at least that's the general drift, anyone has any cooler ideas about how it all ends let me know.

But I think we can safely say that the Formians who are left are going to develop their own weird culture and a new specific role in the societies.


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## s/LaSH (Apr 6, 2003)

OK, so we've got a massive battle in Ausel. Divine wrath and interplanar empires clash.

Yet this doesn't matter to the formian empire. They've lost a queen. Big deal, they've got thousands on each of their worlds. (I'm guessing queens aren't unique here - if they are, no formian empire could ever grow that huge.) However, they did come to an interesting conclusion when the young queen reported back after it was all over.

These 'humans' are interesting creatures - they seem chaotic, and they have no central mind like the formians. Yet when attacked, they adapted and banded together, forming surprising strength.

Sure, the formians could planeshift in ten thousand fortresses and forcibly assimilate everything in sight. But do they want to? The humans are no threat to their mighty empire. In fact, the formian philosophy is such that they see two outcomes:

First, these bipeds could squabble amongst themselves endlessly for the next ten thousand years, in which case they're obviously chaotic and in need of enlightenment. (Ten thousand years is long enough for the formians to wait, I'm sure. They've probably done this before.)

Or, they might evolve a society again, one which co-operates and has infrastructure. This is obviously Law coming to the surface, and this is good. If humanity evolves a coherent civilisation in ten thousand years, the formians will be pleased and treat them as equals.

In the meantime, the formians will maintain a nominal presence on Ausel and send wandering anthropologists to the far corners of the globe to check out on the state of civilisation. Most rural communities, therefore, can expect to see a formian expedition once every decade; major urban centers every day. These anthropologists are generally not to interfere with intraplanar affairs; a war between kingdoms is out of bounds, but if slaadi invade the formians will co-operate with humans to stop them, and if bandits waylay the formians they will be allowed to fight back.

Meanwhile, monks in distant realms begin to raise dragon whelps... a hobgoblin warlord tries to hold Stempa together... and the rest of the Heaven Region is pretty much leaderless.

Oh, and the collapse of the Auselen armies inadvertently released huge numbers of horrible monsters into the world, Things Man Was Not Meant To Pet and all that. I figure they'll spread across the world given five hundred years and no major water barriers. (Aquatic and aerial monsters the exception.)


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Apr 6, 2003)

Hmmm, I think that is a pretty good scenario for the Formian Empire as a whole.  I would, however, like to posit the following permutations:

1.) The dieties are fairly rightly pissed about the massive incursion.  Working with the divine powers of the Khanate they create fairly effective barriers against massive interplanar incursions.   The Khanate's participation in this effort makes their society pretty quiscient.  They become seemingly introverted as regards the rest of the world, halting all expansion, withdrawing from all international commitments not involving the destruction of extra nasty planar creatures, and becoming decidedly lawful good in outlook and organization.   They become the inheritors of the paladin and wizard traditions of the Confederation.

2.) Almost entirely isolated from the larger Formian mind, the Formians on the world begin to develop a radically different Formian culture particularly as the new queen matures without the instruction of another queen or very many myrmachs.  The Formian community is still very tight, but they proove unable to produce very many dominators and develop a much more cooperative approach with other groups.

The Empire allows both of these events to occur considering that the Formian will not unduly influence the development of the world and is not a significant part of the collective at any rate.  They are also interested to see what will occur with the hybrid queen.

The Cressian, Stempan, and empty quarter cultures enter chaotic periods aggravated by the appearance of Ausel refugees/raiders fleeing their homeland and the monsters who pursue them. 

The Chaos actually causes all of these cultures to expand rapidly in this period as they attemp to outrun and outgrow their troubles during a period untroubled by any sort of centralization.


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## ajanders (Apr 6, 2003)

*After the comet passes between the earth and the moon*

I can certainly see a massive devastation of Ausel, with minimal survivors, but I find it hard to believe the destruction of civilization worldwide is the result of even the most vicious of wars at this point.
Economically, if I understand things correctly, our societies have just barely begun to specialize.  Just about everybody still has a kitchen garden, hunts, or does animal husbandry to provide some basic food and clothing.
Even if the capital cities were utterly destroyed, there's still probably a network of villiages that are pretty much unaffected and can maintain the same standard of living they had before.
The Stempans may be in trouble because of their concentrated urban populations, but the nomadic Ta'jinn simply move someplace a little less charred and smouldering and the Cresians simply let nature grow back...to druids, this is just one of the less pleasant parts of the circle of life/wheel of time, but nature will grow back, just like it always does.  So will the Cresians.

The Ausel, of course, are in trouble.  We are likely to see their monsters get loose and make all kinds of trouble, but unless they can fly or swim, they won't get far.  Auselen is an island: by definition it's got significant water barriers around it.
Any Ausel can can leave are likely to do so immediately, before the owlbears and wolf-headed hydra come by to discuss their displeasure at their new lifestyle.
These individuals might become blue-water boat people, but are more likely to try and manage landfall and try to blend into the local populace.  The only ones with any hope of making it are going to be the ones who get to Stempa.
Auselen becomes known as an even more cursed and unpleasant place than it was, unless the Formians can settle it, which would be difficult: if they do, it's likely they will have a fulltime job just controlling the escaped Auselen monsters, never mind expanding law and order.


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Apr 6, 2003)

Less specialized civilizations actually have a higher possibility of collapse since the dependence on the specialized components that remain is greater.

This collapse would be very different from the social collapses we're used to seeing in our era.  Very low likelihood of mass starvations and the total destruction of functional local infrastructure.  More like the collapses you see at the end of the Mycenean era in Greece or the collapse of the Roman Empire.  

There's still a lot going on, but the centralization that characterized the prior era is compromised as our most of the institutions that provided the hard core education.

Interesting point about druids.  I would think that the death of the high level mentors and the relative silence from the gods would put them in a nasty spot in terms of maintaining the highly ecologically structure civilization that was Cressia at its height.  On the other hand I imagine that even a few high level druids are much more capable of sustaining an area's civilization than the equivalent number of wizards or clerics due to their increased mobility through wilderness.  So I don't know.  I would guess that Cressia would certainly loose much of its ability to govern its people, and that the culture would become broader and shallower as a result.

I think the Formain/Ausel invasion, the destruction of much of the government, civil strife, and the high number of mauraders/refugees caused by the fall of Ausel would certainly represent a civilazation shifting event for near everyone involved.

I don't see the Ta'jinn as becoming collapsed simply quiet as they turn their attentions to the new goal of defending the near planar territories from incursion. Probably also a little Xenophobic what with the marauders/refugees listed above.


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## Tonguez (Apr 6, 2003)

Dr. Strangemonkey said:
			
		

> *Interesting point about druids.  I would think that the death of the high level mentors and the relative silence from the gods would put them in a nasty spot in terms of maintaining the highly ecologically structure civilization that was Cressia at its height.  On the other hand I imagine that even a few high level druids are much more capable of sustaining an area's civilization than the equivalent number of wizards or clerics due to their increased mobility through wilderness.  So I don't know.  I would guess that Cressia would certainly loose much of its ability to govern its people, and that the culture would become broader and shallower as a result. *




Great conclusion to the Formian Invasion people - pity I missed it!!!

I think that the Dr. is correct that a cultural collapse is likely even if the Druids are able to maintain the Cressian 'technology' (and what affect does all that magic radiation have on the enviroment?). The Formian conflict saw huge amounst of devastation and the death and destruction of entire communities. The Gods have fallen silent and thus the common folk reeling from that destruction no longer have faith in their leadership. They thus become more isolationsist and turn to a more tribal culture made up of small village-based groups perhpas lead by a Druid or Deltane even. 

The Tajinn Centaurs retreat and find new grazing lands leaving the Jinn humans ungoverned. The Stempan cities either fall or become isolated citadels against the chaos of the World

Any assertion of Centralised rule is rejected by the despondent villagers and leads to the rise of warlords who taking advantage of chaos begin terrorising the countryside (desperate times breed desperate people). This tyranny simply reinforces the rejection of centralised authority and escalates the decline of the Empire.

The Island of Ausel now an Ecological mess is declared cursed and the home of monsters. The Seas and Air are terrorised and a few other terrestial monsters manage to swim or hitch rides on floating debris. Yet others were already on the mainland having been introduced as war machines (and now breed true)

I like the scenario re the development of Formian anthropologist - lol- and Formian PCs (all Warriors of course)

- so next step?


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## s/LaSH (Apr 7, 2003)

Well, why don't we jump forward a bit and throw in the previously-mentioned idea of undead legions?

Say a thousand years has passed, and our scope has greatly expanded again - let's look at a continental area five thousand miles wide. Or rather, an inland sea maybe 5000 miles by 1000 miles surrounded by fertile lands similar to Cresia. Another two thousand miles inland from each coast and civilisation is pretty much lost in wilderness (desert, ice, mountains, I dunno).

Basically the Mediterranean.

If we put Cresia in the middle of the north face of the sea, Ta'jinn extends off to the East. Ausel is somewhere in the north-middle of the sea.

I suggest that the North coast is largely similar to Cresia, with some regions forested, some fertile plains, some hilly, all fading into the northern mountains.

Then the South coast is more fertile, fading into southern desert.

It would be from the South that a new civilisation arises, one with a vaguely Egyptian theme, but modified somewhat by the Auselen Diaspora of a thousand years before. Because what fun is an Egyptian civilisation without (a) blue dragons in positions of power and (b) legions of skeletal warriors? Both things the Auselen Diaspora would have brought to the world, by the by.

Ausel itself is ruled by dragons and formians; it's largely off limits.

Cresia, Stempa and Ta'jinn are still somewhat barbarous. They're culturally assimilated now, although the hobgoblins still keep to the northern hills and the centaurs to the eastern steppes. Somewhat. The whole region is still lacking in infrastructure; rulers include warlords, druidic cults, and clerical cults of over two dozen deities (the Stempan, the Cresian, and the Ta'jinn, as well as various arrangements of pantheons depending on region). There are too many to itemise, at any rate, and the Cresian culture has spread in this form to neighbouring regions despite this apparent lack of infrastructure.

Somewhere to the northwest, a number of tribes of forest-dwellers (guess who?) tell tales of wanderers from distant lands who came bearing eggs a thousand years ago. Some tribes welcomed them, some didn't; those that were trusting found themselves dealing with rapidly maturing dragon whelps within a generation. This region is fragmented too; some groups of elves are independant, while others are dragon-dominated, the dragons and their monks recognising the elven talent for magic and fostering it as a new race of servitors.

Monsters are most common in Cresia, but by now they've spread to every corner of the world. Other magi have committed their own experiments, and the occasional extraplanar explorers have dropped by from time to time. Nothing major, but I think we can assume that just about anything from the core rules is running around ruining _someone's_ life.

And does anyone else thing Egyptian dwarves sound cool?


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## Tonguez (Apr 7, 2003)

s/LaSH said:
			
		

> *And does anyone else thing Egyptian dwarves sound cool? *




Do you meanBES - Egyptian Dwarf god


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Apr 7, 2003)

Sounds great, though I still think the Khannate should be going strong and doing its own thing.  Say that Cressia has absorbed the bits of the Ta'jinn who were in the empty quarter and the near portion of the Khannate while the Khannate has limited itself to its admittedly vast other holdings and withdrawn from external affairs aside from the occasional merchant and adventurer.

I see the Khannate as becoming a very strange culture as a result of what happened in the last round.  They view themselves as having partially triumphed over a great evil only to have seen their allies destroyed.   They decide to develop their own internal strength, particular their incarnate divinity through the God-bloods and the Khans, without involving anyone else.   They treat the new Cressian culture with a good deal of pity and regret, but will largely sit this round out.

I want to see how things will turn out with an observor race this round.


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## Robbert Raets (Apr 7, 2003)

Someone said the Khanate would develop Wizards and Paladins, but aren't Sorcerers & Paladins more likely? They'd still be mainly LG (or NG), but with the Godsblood thing Charisma-based spellcasting and classes are more likely.


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## Tonguez (Apr 7, 2003)

Robbert Raets said:
			
		

> *Someone said the Khanate would develop Wizards and Paladins, but aren't Sorcerers & Paladins more likely?  *




Yep Scorcerers and Paladins (interesting mix) - but then if they've withdrawn then they'll only appear as mecenaries anyway so shouldn't matter too much.

Wizards I'd give to the descendents of the Stempans alongside their Clerics, Fighters, Rogues. The warring tribes of Cressia have Druids, Barbarians and Rangers along with a few wandering Skalds (Bards) - their culture is starting to sound Celt!.
 Do the Deltane remain? if so in what capacity? and whats happening with all those Celestial dogs?

I like the 'Egypt' idea - a desert nation ruled by Liches (Mummi with high Int), with skeleton legions and Gnoll mummy in the tombs! Need to have gnolls (and call them Anubi) and Lizardfolk too. I'd probabaly describe the culture as LN and allow for Good Liche Clerics (Domains: Death, Undead, Law) who are able to summon Lammasu! - Clerics, Wizards, Fighters and Rangers as the main classes here

And what part should Ausel play in this scenario - the refugees are by now either absorbed into another culture or have established a new nation of Wizards and Dragons.
Those on Ausel live under Formian rule and are thus barred from involvement in the outside world.

*scenario*
An Anubi merchant ship is sent to Cressia in order to initiate trade the Cressians see a similarity between the gnolls and he Delatanes and so trade is accepted. A few Cressian and Stempa diplomats are sent to Anubi-land and are horrified to discover the dead walking the streets with impunity and when they return to Cressia trade is unilaterally cut. The enemies of Cressia take advantage of this and the next Anubi ship reaching Cressia is sunk just of the coast and its crew eaten by Sea serpents

The Anubi now prepare for war...


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## Robbert Raets (Apr 7, 2003)

Well, if Cressia has become fragmented, it's not very likely to form a combined front on anything; trade, diplomacy or warfare. Some communities may have sent diplomats to Ansi, but others are probably oblivious to the whole Undead/Mummies thing.


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## Tonguez (Apr 7, 2003)

Robbert Raets said:
			
		

> *Well, if Cressia has become fragmented, it's not very likely to form a combined front on anything; trade, diplomacy or warfare. Some communities may have sent diplomats to Ansi, but others are probably oblivious to the whole Undead/Mummies thing. *




Yep exactly - the Anubi were trading with one of the many tribes. The point is they think the 'Cressians' have sunk their merchant ships and now come for revenge - and as far as they care all Cressians are the same.
 (Come to think of it it might well have _been_ Cressians - but a different tribe- that did sink the ship!)

So can this conflict reunite the warring tribes? or will the petty factions be torn apart by infighting and backstabbing!


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## Robbert Raets (Apr 7, 2003)

The Ansi attack probably drives back the bulk of the Cressian Remnants. The older and further inland cities will be overflowing with refugees, thus concentrating and unificating the Cressians once more.


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## s/LaSH (Apr 8, 2003)

Tonguez said:
			
		

> *Do you meanBES - Egyptian Dwarf god *




Not specifically - I was thinking more 'Who really built the pyramids?', which could make for some interesting scenarios.

Huh, everyone seems to like this idea.

Anyway, my idea for this egyptian place (which could well be called Anub or something similar) was that it wasn't necessarily populated exclusively by the dead; the rulers could be a new dynasty in an already flourishing land, humans from Ausel in all likelihood (although maybe no longer human), who've spent the past few centuries increasing legions of undead, uniting whatever equivalent of the 'upper and lower kingdoms' we have in this world, and maybe even developing the dracolich. After all, they've got the dragons and they've got the necromancy - and what's cooler than a dracolich?

However, the military would probably be largely undead - as would the labour forces. Undead can build entire cities in the deep desert without water, dig an aqueduct in that direction taking a hundred years, and suddenly you've got yourself an entire new city ready for irrigation and population - quite a boon for a civilisation once limited to a narrow strip of fertile land along a river.

I propose that Anub was largely a dwarven realm a thousand years ago. There is now maybe a 10% human component (Auselen and others), and another 20% gnolls (a desert tribal race, with a number of independant kingdoms along the coast). While there may be lizardfolk, they were created early on by Auselen and now serve as temple guards. And Anub has a unique form of cavalry: the hydra. It's like a war elephant but hungrier. Hydrae can be found in many lands these days, but only the Anub have domesticated them.

As for Ta'jinn: They might well have fixed their borders and started making themselves strong again. They rule a sizable region, well beyond the headwaters of the Heaven River, but to become strong you need people, people need food, and food requires water. Like it or not, the jinn find themselves masters of aqueducts and terraform their steppes into fertile fields. Most of the stempan engineers now live in Ta'jinn lands and think of themselves as native. Ta'jinn architecture is characterised by soaring towers and immense aqueducts. Their roads are a marvel of the age; they often run atop aqueducts, connecting settlements together, and these roads have periodic God Towers, whence griffins can land and rest.

The formian presence is most commonly felt in Ta'jinn and Anub, at least in those lands known to Cresia. The anthropologists sometimes drop hints at 'unification wars', and everyone (by which I mean sages and scholars and possibly the rulers of realms) knows that humanity has ten thousand years to unite their world under law. The trouble is, everyone thinks their own way is best, the formians can't make good on their threat, it doesn't matter because who's going to live that long, or some combination of the lot. Thus nobody has suggested political unions.


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## Tonguez (Apr 8, 2003)

*Scenario Revised - The Cressian Dark Ages*

It struck me as I was taking my son to Kindergarten - its a thousand years since the Formian Invasion, the chaos has spread and begun to settle - Cressia is now ready for its Dark Ages!

1 *Cressia* After the fall Cressia splintered into a myriad of small tribes with petty Warlords (mainly Deltanes and Barbarians) rising and falling with great regluarity. A Thousand years has past however and the Formian Invasion is now legend and the Petty Warlords that arose in its wake now hailed as Heroes and 'Dragon' Slayers. The descendents of these Warlords have consolidated their territories and Cressia is now a patchwork of Tribal Nations lead by hereditary chieftains split evenly between Deltanes (Wolf-Rangers) and Druids. Barbarians have also risen to prominence amongst the Cressians and although Arcane magic is viewed with distaste wandering Bards are welcomed in most communities and have a degree of freedom to move between tribes/nations (carrying news and sometimes acting as spies)

2 *Stempa* Hidden along the Shoulder of the Mountains the High Citadels of Stempa are home to the Wizard-Kings who rose to power in the vacuum left after the fall of the Oracles. The Wizard-Kings are isolationists and arrogant and watch the world around them from the heights of their ivory towers. In the Cities below the People of Stempa toil, Clerics invoke the names of distant gods, Rogues skulk in the urban shadows and Elite Fighters train to defend the Wizard-Kings from imaginary threats. 

3 *Ta'Jinn* The Ta'Jinn Centaurs are rarely seen and for most common are legends from the ancient past. They have withdrawn and a feircely xenophobic. The Jinn (Elves perhaps?) whom they once ruled have mainly been absorbed into the Cressian or Stempa peoples although a few maintain seperate nations 

The largest Jinn Nation is a Militant Theocracy of Paladins and Godsblood Scorcerer/GriffonRiders . Sworn to protect the World from Extraplanar threats and other vile evil. Clerics are also prominent here and strangely enough the Jinn have taken on the Monk class of the Ausel - Honing their minds body and spirit to face the Threat 

4 *Auselen* Auselen is an accursed place for most - half the Island is a great Formian fortress enclosed walls, deep tunnels and great black towers - this is the realm of the Hive.

The other half of the Island is monster infested wilderness. If any humanoids survive here they are either twisted monstrosities themselves (giants maybe) or desperate wretches.

*Anub* - like s/Lash said


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## s/LaSH (Apr 8, 2003)

Good point, Tonguez. Dark Ages weren't simply limited to the one we all know about. Even in terrestrial history, whole regions got beat down on occasion - empires fell, civilisation was diminished, but only over regions of a few thousand miles. Plenty of this happened around the Mediterranean.

So yep, we're probably going to see a cultural renaissance with this one.

Just one plea: let's stretch the length of this war out, shall we? It's not going to be a war of anihilation; more a war of gestures. Every couple of years someone could send a raiding part over and see what happens. Big wars come every generation or so. This should give us a good idea of tactics and allow for the creation of real defensive strategy.


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Apr 8, 2003)

I would guess that the Centaurs are actually fairly well known in greater Cressia as would be the refugee Formians.  

Large groups of these populations were isolated in the collapsed regions after the final climactic battles.  

Dark ages generally involve a lot of cultural mixing, it's one of many reasons I prefer dark ages to Renaissances.  I'm thinking that the larger Cressian portion of the world know features a very mixed distribution of Cressian, Ausel, Stempan, Ta'jinn, Formian, and newly encountered or developed native cultural, racial, and ethnic traits.

I firmly agree with the idea of a long and prolonged series of conflicts punctuated with more intense military/migrational campaigns much like the conflicts within Western Europe and against Magyars, Muslims, and Romans in the Post-Roman period.

Perhaps leading up to the sort of age redefining conflicts that would parallel Charlemagne's conquests in the Post-Roman period or the expansion of the Assyrian empire at the end of a period of larger cultural instability in the Easter Mediterranean and Fertile Crescent.

Perhaps...

Not too mention the expansion of new monstrous powers throughout the area.   This could be termed the Age of Giants and Dragons.


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## Malcolm (Apr 8, 2003)

Interesting discussion gentlemen.  Your story line has worked well so far. Not to pick on anyone, just a couple of monkey wrenches though, and some observations:

1.) Your development sequence of magic(k) is fictional historically off a bit when used in the "No deific/outside interference" view that this originally started.
  Development should go: 
         sub-a.) Adepts. 
         a.) Sorcerers/Druids emerge as the dualistic principle evolves and splits the arcane-theism reference of Adepts. 
          b.) Wizards replace Sorcerers (more control, cultural advancements in literature make reading open to the masses, easier to teach, etc.), and Clerics slowly supplant Druids (spells that usually are more functional for large cities and societies which you have as soon as your town structure goes over 1k pop)
          c.) Sorcerers emerge again after X-amount of time with Wizards tinkering with magic, etc. and using themselves as targets for their own experimental spells.  Druids re-emerge as Nature type Clerics who help to enrich nature, bring civilization back in touch with it (to fight pollution, disasters, etc) and to help Pioneers settle lands. 
   finally   d.) Adepts re-emerge within the common populace as folks learn to understand that magic = magic = magic, and the dualistic principle is a stepping stone to higher forms of arcane-theism. 
       This is a gross Over Simplification; I've written a paper and hosted discussions on the nature of "magic as technology and its evolution" in other media.  I can include a link on a side-thread if anyone is interested.

As for the concepts of War, etc. that have evolved:
1.) Lots of good strategies and discussion on the low-power stuff.  Perhaps return the discussion to that level as you're going to find that high-power techno-magocracies tend to cycle out of hand.  Magic = Technology = morale/population growth/fighting ability, etc.  The side with the better technology, given No outside random factors, will usually win any war; and even with AoGs thrown in (Acts of God as the insurance companies call it), they will still usually win at a higher cost.  While I've seen good discussion on fitting in armies/civs as per our real world, folks have just barely touched on this other than making large monsters.
The insertion of the Borg (i.e. Formians) was interesting, but should happen further down the road, otherwise you're going to end up with a war-torn world.
2.) Solution to the Formians = Ausel, being a magic heavy country, will do one of two things, both of which result in what my players and I have come to call "Magic Intelligent Nukes".  These are not Epic level spells of destruction, doing X-Google-d6.
   Nukes = Intelligent Summoned creatures that can Teleport.
   What will happen is one of the two events (or variations of them) which no other magic wielding country can protect itself against save to blanket its domain with Anti-magic (and eventually develop non-magic tech).  Either:
    a.) Ausel Scrys on the Formian Queen and succeeds.  Once they know her location they Summon any Outsider type from the Summon Monster 5+ listings that can teleport at will (tpwoE is most common), buff it, and send it to attack and kill the Queen. In the meantime they send others inside to distract the Hive.  If they can't get her on the first shot, they repeat.  The Hive has no blocks against this. Once the Queen dies, its over.
    b.) Ausel Scries the Formian Queen and fails.  Instead they equip X number of Rogues with Scrolls of Summon Monster 5+ (Use Magic Device saves lives!) and send them into the complex.
    c.) Ausel Scries the Formian Queen and fails.  They don't care! They use the mages which are the highest in level (didn't someone post that they are powerful enough to become dragons?) which in turn Summon 5+ that have Teleport without Error, buff them, give them a Rough description (spies, Divination, Commune, whatever it takes) who then go in and do the job. 
    note: This tactic basically is used once Casters in a world have access to Summon 5+ and/or Gate.  "I Gate in a Solar of Zeus, and then I ask it to go destroy the infidels of city X which has attacked us!"  These creatures don't have to focus on the armies of the bad guys, they can take out leaders, destroy industries, ruin crops on massive levels, or yeah, annihilate armies. 
    Example: In one of my home campaigns we just had a fleet of 30 warships sunk by one 17th level Wizard.  He used Summons to bring in enough Water elementals by himself that he (the most powerful mage in this low-magic/power world) destroyed the whole fleet within rounds and still had time to drown the sailors! 
   What stops Magic Nukes?   The same as in the real world: mutual agreement pacts and treaties.  We both know we could "Gate" the world to pieces, but do we want to? Is it worth the risks?  Plus if only a select few hold the power there is the "7th Bullet" paradox: If SummonerA just hit our cities, is he weak enough for SummonerB to kill or not; does he have more spells or power? 
    Eventually although one of the cultures will expand beyond its environmental niche and one of two things must occur: a.) Transport Tech becomes supreme and they leave the continent/world/universe they are in (Gates, T-port, etc) or b.) Weaponry Tech becomes supreme and they use it in a risk-weighed attack on their opponents (this usually only occurs with no social collapse  in cultures that are bonded in a form of government with no dissent on any level, or dissent so minor that all in power agree on the changes needed). 

Sorry, would have spoken up sooner but just found this thread.


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