# Worst D&D adventure of all time?



## Emirikol (Aug 26, 2005)

So...of all the _______________OFFICIAL_______________________ D&D/AD&D/oD&D scenarios you've played or DM'ed, which one is the worst.   


jh


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## Barendd Nobeard (Aug 26, 2005)

*Heart of Nightfang Spire* was pretty bad.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Aug 26, 2005)

The original Dragonlance campaign.  Wandering armies of draconians as plot devices, anyone?


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## Hoki (Aug 26, 2005)

[font=&quot]Not "official,"   but any adventure that comes in pamphlet form I tend to pass on....[/font]


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## S. Baldrick (Aug 26, 2005)

The whole time of troubles series: Shadowdale, Tantras and Waterdeep.  The player characters took a back seat to the NPCs.  They were just along for the ride.  Don’t get me wrong, there were some great adventures that were published for Forgotten Realms.  The Horde/Horse Lord trilogy of adventures were awesome.  I just really hated the time of troubles trilogy.  Heck, maybe it was just our DM at the time.


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## Shemeska (Aug 26, 2005)

The Module That Shall Not Be Named... hiding it behind spoilers for the sake of all :



Spoiler



Die Vecna Die


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## Sundragon2012 (Aug 26, 2005)

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> The original Dragonlance campaign.  Wandering armies of draconians as plot devices, anyone?




Wandering draconian army as plot devices?  :\ 

Well considering that the army that was under control of the Dark Queen's forces were to a large extent made up of draconians they were no more a plot device than any other campaign defining signature element.

The original Dragonlance campaign gave young DMs like myself at the time the opportunity to see that D&D didn't have to be in a dungeon and that that the system supported real stories. At 16yrs old those modules were a godsend.


Chris


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## Crunchy Frog (Aug 26, 2005)

Hmm, bad adventures, ...
The original Dragonlance adventures (at least the few I'm familiar with) were ridiculously linear.   Narrate some text, fight some monsters and go right into the next bit of text to read, which leads to another monster, ...

B1, In Search of the Unknown, wasn't plain awful, but it was quite lackluster.  Little more than a map with a list of encounters for the DM to assign to it.


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## GuardianLurker (Aug 26, 2005)

Well, lets see...

B3 had a map that was essentially unplayable - stairs missing, encounters misnumbered, etc. To save it you almost had to completely rewrite it.

X2 was a great module, except that you *had* to have the wish at the end to resurrect the dead characters.


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## Teflon Billy (Aug 26, 2005)

*Curse of the Azure Bonds*.

Total  from start to finish. You follow the storyline of the novel, _complete with protagonists_ (The requisite sexy girl and her extra-dimensional Lizardman Paladin buddy) and watch them have the adventure while you tag along.

Sucked hard.

Edit:  Manual profanity filter.  --Dinkeldog


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## Melan (Aug 26, 2005)

*Terrible Trouble at Tragidore*, the adventure that came with the 2nd edition DM screen. It was a railroady convention module with absolutely lame encounters (like bandits pretending to be vampires by keeping sharpened wooden stakes in their mouth) and a background that made no sense. Worse, it looks like it would run awfully. The author, Jean Rabe, also authored Swamplight, which is slightly better.


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## mearls (Aug 26, 2005)

Any of the adventures from TSR's "repeatedly stab Greyhawk in the face and hope it dies" phase, from the late 80s, early 90s:

Castle Greyhawk
Puppets
Gargoyles
Child's Play

Terrible Trouble at Tragidor was another module that made me question whether I wanted to keep playing AD&D.

I have weird feelings toward Azure Bonds and Pool of Radiance. I played through them in high school, but after reading them it's obvious that the DM was using the maps, a few NPCs, and not much else from them.


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## A'koss (Aug 26, 2005)

mearls said:
			
		

> Any of the adventures from TSR's "repeatedly stab Greyhawk in the face and hope it dies" phase, from the late 80s, early 90s:
> 
> Castle Greyhawk



Sometimes I think I had a really strange group in the late 80s - they _loved _this module. The still talk of the time they used the Decanter of Endless Lemonade to save themselves from cooking in the giant oven...  




> Puppets
> Gargoyles
> Child's Play



Okay, yeah, these are definitely the worst of the worst.


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## Silver Moon (Aug 26, 2005)

I'll nominate TSR's first *Ravenloft* module.   It was actually a very well written module, but the whole adventure was centered around the players slowly discovering the villain's big secret - which was given away from the very beginning by prominantely featuring the secret as the art on the module's cover.   That Spoiler ruined what should have been an excellent story.


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## devilbat (Aug 26, 2005)

> I'll nominate TSR's first Ravenloft module




WHAT?  Ouch, that's my all time favorite.  

The Dragonlance novels were my least favorite.  I actually had a fellow player say to me, "According to the novels, a dragon should be showing up about now".  Low and behold, the DM introduces a black dragon.  I didn't feel the need to read the books, as it was obvious that I was playing them.


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## A'koss (Aug 26, 2005)

I was just going through my box of useless modules and I think there are a few that should get nominated through sheer obscurity... 

Mystery of the Snow Pearls?
Bane of Llywelyn?
War Rafts of Kron?
The Lost Shrine of Bundushatur?
A Howl from the North?
The Lost Island of Castanamir?


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## replicant2 (Aug 26, 2005)

*Quest for the Heartstone* was/is a real stinker. I bought it as a kid because I liked the line of D&D posable action figures, but writing an adventure around a line of toys is a real bad idea. Lots of random, senseless encounters that exist for no other reason than to get you to buy the line of plastic monster toys. Ugh.


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## loki44 (Aug 26, 2005)

*Under the Storm Giant's Castle* 

I hate to throw Judges Guild under the bus like that, but I had to.  It's a god-awful module.
And yes, JG had permission to produce "official" D&D products back then.


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## MarauderX (Aug 26, 2005)

Terrible Trouble at Tragidor 

and

Mystery of the Snow Pearls


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## Dragonhelm (Aug 26, 2005)

A'koss said:
			
		

> Sometimes I think I had a really strange group in the late 80s - they _loved _this module. The still talk of the time they used the Decanter of Endless Lemonade to save themselves from cooking in the giant oven...




I played in a group that went through Castle Greyhawk myself, and we had a blast.  Lots of laughs.  Greyhawk purists may feel differently, but for me, it was a ton of fun.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Aug 26, 2005)

A'koss said:
			
		

> The Lost Island of Castanamir?



You're nuts. That's a great little module and it introduced one of the few really useful and interesting new categories out outsiders. (Which are strangely absent from 3E, so maybe I'm alone in loving them.)

I'd say "Castle Greyhawk," the attempt to repair the damage, "Greyhawk Ruins" (the prize at the bottom of the package/dungeon should not be a tie-in to SPELLJAMMER!) and the other allegedly Greyhawk modules around the same time.

EDIT TO TELL WHY:
1) "Castle Greyhawk": After nine or so years, the payoff to finally getting Castle Greyhawk in print was ... a comedy module? A bad one at that? No. A thousand times, no. Imagine, during the 2E era, if TSR had released a second set of Undermountain levels, but this time based on old Abbott and Costello movies, and that was about the reaction from most D&D fans regarding this module.

2) "Greyhawk Ruins": Allegedly the serious module to fix the psychic damage done by the previous module, this was an incredibly generic, at best, module that happened to sit in the most hallowed spot in the AD&D world. It was so generic, in fact, that it was used to hook into whatever else TSR was pimping at that point, including other settings, culminating in a spelljamming helm and ship being the ultimate prize in the dungeon that should have been knee-deep in D&D history.

3) The other modules at this time were as bad as any professionally published module ever. They didn't make sense, they weren't even remotely balanced and, most importantly, they were boring. If they didn't say "Greyhawk" at the top, no one would have picked them up. They genuinely come off as some sort of passive-aggressive attempt to justify dropping the Greyhawk line. That's idiotic, I know, but it's hard to come up with a reason they exist otherwise.


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## Arbiter of Wyrms (Aug 26, 2005)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> *Curse of the Azure Bonds*.
> 
> Total crumminess from start to finish.



Sounds like it. I have to wonder though if maybe railroading might not be perfect for some beginning groups.


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## (Psi)SeveredHead (Aug 26, 2005)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> *Curse of the Azure Bonds*.
> 
> Total  from start to finish. You follow the storyline of the nevel, _complete with potagonists_ (The requisite sexy girl and her extra-dimensional Lizardman Paladin buddy) and watch them have the adventure while you tag along.
> 
> Sucked hard.




Three comments.

1) Wow, I didn't know you could use that word here.

2) Was that a computer adventure? I just googled it, and they all talked about a PC or Commodore 64 game.

3) Sounds like an over-the-top example of why some people don't like the Forgotten Realms.

I don't know the name of this one, but the worst 3e adventure I've been in was a 3.0 adventure involving a ghost orc druid that was summoning some kind of evil spawn. We had to deal with broken advanced air elementals, wimpy solitary half-dragon giants (crappy Will saves ... did they bother to playtest?) and the only way to advance the plot was to raise some nobody from the dead (not _speak with dead_) and have the Track feat. Our party didn't have the latter ability, so guess how well we did.


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## VirgilCaine (Aug 26, 2005)

A'koss said:
			
		

> I was just going through my box of useless modules and I think there are a few that should get nominated through sheer obscurity...
> 
> Mystery of the Snow Pearls?
> Bane of Llywelyn?
> ...




You must explain WHY. Stupid monsters/encounters? Railroading? Too much goofiness/silliness? Bad maps? Without details, the thread is combinations of bad/weird names and places.


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## kenobi65 (Aug 26, 2005)

Silver Moon said:
			
		

> I'll nominate TSR's first *Ravenloft* module.




Ravenloft had, for me, a much bigger issue.  The party is essentially set up to die.  Killing Strahd is *so* difficult, and there are so many ways to die in the mod (esp. when the mod specifically says to not let in any cleric who might have a chance of turning the more powerful undead) that a TPK was a very likely result.


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## francisca (Aug 26, 2005)

X3: Curse of Xanathon, just plain old stupid.  The things the players were expected to do would make a wookie defense: it just don't make sense.

The Castle Greyhawk parody that wasn't.  Just not funny.

Most of the 2e lankhmar stuff is crap, from a setting/Leiber fan perspective.  Female thieve's guild members?  What you say?  Did they even read the books?  Blasphemy!  Seriously, you have to dig hard in most of those books to find some nuggets, and most of them are the _bad_ kind.

Oh, and the 1e DL modules.  I got off the DL plot train and ended up bad mouting the setting for literally 20 years.  All aboard the plotline express!


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## francisca (Aug 26, 2005)

VirgilCaine said:
			
		

> You must explain WHY.



Naw.  Much more fun to speculate.


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## GlassJaw (Aug 26, 2005)

replicant2 said:
			
		

> *Quest for the Heartstone* was/is a real stinker. I bought it as a kid because I liked the line of D&D posable action figures, but writing an adventure around a line of toys is a real bad idea. Lots of random, senseless encounters that exist for no other reason than to get you to buy the line of plastic monster toys. Ugh.




All true but the map of the complex was very cool.  You could easily stock it in an intelligent fashion and have a great dungeon on your hands.



> Any of the adventures from TSR's "repeatedly stab Greyhawk in the face and hope it dies" phase, from the late 80s, early 90s:
> 
> Castle Greyhawk
> Puppets
> ...




Puppets is salvageable.  The first half is nothing more than a couple of random encounters strung together but the 2nd half, when the party is investigating in the city and eventually encouters the "puppets", is pretty cool.

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I didn't like the Temple of the Frog.  I never liked the batch of futuristic modules to begin with but TotF was just lame.


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## A'koss (Aug 26, 2005)

VirgilCaine said:
			
		

> You must explain WHY. Stupid monsters/encounters? Railroading? Too much goofiness/silliness? Bad maps? Without details, the thread is combinations of bad/weird names and places.



Think of them as death by mediocracy. They're just so mind-numbingly dull they end up consigned to the dustheap and forgotten. They don't even enjoy the notoriety of being one of the _Elder Awfuls_.


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## Teflon Billy (Aug 26, 2005)

From the same period as *Curse of the Azure Bonds* was another steaming pile that I can't recall the name of.

Divine magic goes away (just vanishes...praying doesn't recharge spells anymore for Clerics), so the PC's are expected to find out what the deal is.

First order of business according tot he Adventure? _Go ask Elminster what's going on_.

Secondly, you get 2 full pages of boxed text for the players to listen to, which details exatly what Elmister says, and in that crappy accent that they affected for him.

2 pages and 10 minutes of exposition later what is the answer? _He doesn't know_, and for whatever reason..._is unwilling to find out_.

We were like "look, Elminster...just cast Wish or something. The world is screwed".

Nope. He, as written, thought that doing _anything_ might be the _wrong_ thing, and refused to appreciably help. 

We quit on this one. Just told the DM to pack it up, we were playing Car Wars starting now. Next week, we switched DM's...to me.


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## Barendd Nobeard (Aug 26, 2005)

Barendd Nobeard said:
			
		

> *Heart of Nightfang Spire* was pretty bad.






			
				VirgilCaine said:
			
		

> You must explain WHY. Stupid monsters/encounters? Railroading? Too much goofiness/silliness? Bad maps? Without details, the thread is combinations of bad/weird names and places.





OK.  I remember it as lots and lots of the same monster over and over.  I'm sure it must have had some variation, but those damn mutant gorillas (girallons) over and over....and ending with a vampire weaing special sunglasses so daylight won't affect him immediately.  On top of being a hasted 13th level sorcerer (in 3.0--two spells a round!), let's reduce the effectiveness of using sun light to stop a vampire.  Where's that "rolls eyes" smiley when you need it?


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## Glyfair (Aug 26, 2005)

(Psi)SeveredHead said:
			
		

> 2) Was that a computer adventure? I just googled it, and they all talked about a PC or Commodore 64 game.




Adventure, novel series, computer game, all  tied together.  Too tightly, in fact.

Poll of Radiance was the first, but it was just lackluster (the maps were _exactly_ the computer game type).


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## Glyfair (Aug 26, 2005)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> From the same period as *Curse of the Azure Bonds* was another steaming pile that I can't recall the name of.
> 
> Divine magic goes away (just vanishes...praying doesn't recharge spells anymore for Clerics), so the PC's are expected to find out what the deal is.




IIRC, it was the Forgotten Realms tie-in to the 2nd edition change (Greyhawk's was _Fate of Istus_).  There were three tied together with the "Time of Troubles" Shadowdale/Tantras/Waterdeep.


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## Cam Banks (Aug 26, 2005)

francisca said:
			
		

> Oh, and the 1e DL modules.  I got off the DL plot train and ended up bad mouting the setting for literally 20 years.  All aboard the plotline express!




This is the gaming equivalent of getting on an elevator and immediately hitting the button to open the doors while complaining that the floor was moving and you had to get off before the thing took you somewhere.

Cheers,
Cam


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## caudor (Aug 26, 2005)

I was not too thrilled with the Marco Volo trilogy, although Arrival was the best of the three.


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## spunky_mutters (Aug 26, 2005)

*Ravager of Time*

We had a lot of modules go badly, but Ravager of Time was the worst. The party gets turned into geriatrics in the early going, and must finish the adventure like that. Eventually they have to fight the lifebane duplicates of themselves who are better than the old versions (and the bbeg is there too). I don't see any way to avoid a tpk unless you softball the party a lot. My players rebelled, and I don't blame them.


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## Zelligars Apprentice (Aug 26, 2005)

loki44 said:
			
		

> *Under the Storm Giant's Castle*
> 
> I hate to throw Judges Guild under the bus like that, but I had to.  It's a god-awful module.
> And yes, JG had permission to produce "official" D&D products back then.




I have to respectfully disagree.  By far the worst D&D module that Judge's Guild produced was *Temple of Ra Accursed by Set*.  Why?  First off, the map was designed to use Brix Blox to create the Temple.  Literally.  "The walls of the temple are made of gigantic blocks of red, white and blue stone (the colors of the Brix Blox pieces)".  It would have been slightly better if they had used Legos, but no, they used a knock-off brick building set.

The map of the temple had no rhyme or reason, just a bunch of encounters that made no sense.  The monster at the bottom of the temple was the worst.  It looks like half a dozen diffrent random mosters glued together.  Ugh!

Add to this the fact that this was the FIRST thing I ever got from Judge's Guild.  This module was so bad, for years afterwards I refused to buy anything else made by them.  Which was a pity, because a lot of their other stuff sounds pretty good, and I wish now that I had gotten more of it (I did eventually get some of the City State material, much, much later).

Oh, and I also agree that Castle Greyhawk, Puppets, and Child's Play were among the worst TSR D&D modules.  And that someone at TSR was trying to kill Greyhawk by slapping the Greyhawk label on these pieces of drek.  Along with allowing Rose Estes to write Greyhawk novels, of course (I STILL cannot believe how bad Master Wolf was.)

I wonder: Is there is a neurosis caused by exposure to bad role-playing adventures?


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## Pants (Aug 26, 2005)

*Expedition to Barrier Peaks* gets nominated for the bunch of stupid, sci-fi garbage in the module. I can accetp warforged, but robots? C'mon!

*In Search of the Unknown* gets nominated for being just dull. It's nice that Gygax and Co created an adventure _specifically_ to help novice DM's (that's a worthy goal!), but the adventure outline is just dull.

*That Epic Adventure in the ELH*. My god. What a horrible adventure. What's the best way to showcase an Epic Level Party's abilities? Why, a dungeoncrawl of course! But, it's on the Elemental Plane of FIRE. You know, the Plane that's really HOT. And everything, every creature in the adventure is EPIC with a capital E with many exclamation points following. Ugh, please, this adventure just sucks.


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## the Jester (Aug 26, 2005)

From my experiences I'd have to say the first run of Dragonlance modules.  No offense to their defenders, but I've never dealt with more heavy-handed railroady adventures.

I know some folks like 'em- we're exchanging opinions here!  I even enjoyed Castle Greyhawk, though certainly not _as a Greyhawk module..._


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## wingsandsword (Aug 26, 2005)

Pants said:
			
		

> *That Epic Adventure in the ELH*. My god. What a horrible adventure. What's the best way to showcase an Epic Level Party's abilities? Why, a dungeoncrawl of course! But, it's on the Elemental Plane of FIRE. You know, the Plane that's really HOT. And everything, every creature in the adventure is EPIC with a capital E with many exclamation points following. Ugh, please, this adventure just sucks.



Not to mention that the main villain is an "Epic" dragon that requires a weapon to breach it's DR that's so powerful that a character of the level suggested for the level can't even normally have it by normal wealth guidelines, since it requires /+7.  That was a textbook case of bad playtesting.

I'll have to give a Dishonorable Mention to Die Vecna Die *shudder*.  A Ravenloft/Planescape crossover module that wrecks the continuity and basic setting considerations of both (Vecna, a demigod, is powerful enough to force his way out of Ravenloft, then proves more powerful than the Lady of Pain (who kills Greater Gods with ease).  Whoever wrote that module needs to walk the walk of 1000 4-Siders.

Further Dishonorable Mention goes to Reverse Dungeon.  I didn't look at the module itself,  I don't know exactly how bad it was (since the concept wasn't half bad of playing the inhabitants of a dungeon, but I just know how the DM ran it), I just played in it when a DM I knew ran it, but it was pretty bad.  First section, the PC's are generic, basic Monster Manual standard goblins in a goblin layer.  Here come The Adventurers!  The adventurers beat you up with overwhelming force, kill you, and take all your stuff.  Second section, you're slightly more powerful monsters in a more complex dungeon, so here comes much more powerful adventurers to steamroller over you and take your stuff from your corpse.  We didn't even bother with the third part of the module when it became clear the whole point was to get TPK'ed by the heroes.

Castle Greyhawk was pretty bad.  I played in that once, and just about cried at the sheer badness of it.  Game shows?  Horrible puns?  Pretty bad.


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## ThirdWizard (Aug 26, 2005)

Shemeska said:
			
		

> The Module That Shall Not Be Named... hiding it behind spoilers for the sake of all :
> 
> 
> 
> ...




That's the one.


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## ColonelHardisson (Aug 26, 2005)

Egg of the Phoenix. It apparently was a series of RPGA modules strung together, as I recall. I remember it as a poorly-written mess. It just didn't hang together well.

Needle - another poorly written, boring module.


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## S'mon (Aug 26, 2005)

"Nightmare Keep" set (literally) in the bowels of a lich is the one I hated most, but most 2e stuff was pretty terrible IMO.  For 3e stuff Necropolis nearly killed my campaign, while Bastion of Broken Souls' endless stat blocks detterd me from trying to run it.


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## S'mon (Aug 26, 2005)

francisca said:
			
		

> Most of the 2e lankhmar stuff is crap, from a setting/Leiber fan perspective.  Female thieve's guild members?  What you say?  Did they even read the books?  Blasphemy!  Seriously, you have to dig hard in most of those books to find some nuggets, and most of them are the _bad_ kind.




Aye!  Die Dale "Slade" Henson Die!


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## Melan (Aug 26, 2005)

francisca said:
			
		

> Most of the 2e lankhmar stuff is crap, from a setting/Leiber fan perspective.  Female thieve's guild members?  What you say?  Did they even read the books?  Blasphemy!  Seriously, you have to dig hard in most of those books to find some nuggets, and most of them are the _bad_ kind.



Oh *yes*. Dale "Slade" Henson and Anthony Pryor took a very well adapted, classic setting, and turned it into a dumping ground for lame ideas that had nothing to do with Leiber's work... not to mention it wasn't even _good_ generica. I wish I never paid money for these stinkers.


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## MonsterMash (Aug 26, 2005)

The Temple of the Frog in Supplement 2 _Blackmoor_ was poor as the stats were incomplete and it was badly organised. 

Under the storm giants castle was poor too.


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## Krug (Aug 26, 2005)

So what's the worst 3E adventure so far?


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## Angel Tarragon (Aug 26, 2005)

For 2nd Edition I'd have to say Return To The Tomb Of Horrors. Extra-Planar? Eh.


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## tetsujin28 (Aug 26, 2005)

Pants said:
			
		

> *Expedition to Barrier Peaks* gets nominated for the bunch of stupid, sci-fi garbage in the module. I can accetp warforged, but robots? C'mon!



Best. Adventure. Ever. Scifi was a long-established theme in sword-and-sorcery. You never read the Kane books or played Arduin?


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## tetsujin28 (Aug 26, 2005)

francisca said:
			
		

> Most of the 2e lankhmar stuff is crap, from a setting/Leiber fan perspective.  Female thieve's guild members?  What you say?  Did they even read the books?  Blasphemy!  Seriously, you have to dig hard in most of those books to find some nuggets, and most of them are the _bad_ kind.



Oh, man. I knew Fritz through my best friend. We showed him some of that stuff, and he made this sort of "*Phtagggh!*" sound


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## Angel Tarragon (Aug 26, 2005)

tetsujin28 said:
			
		

> Best. Adventure. Ever. Scifi was a long-established theme in sword-and-sorcery. You never read the Kane books or played Arduin?



This adventure is what helped me into Tale of the Comet. Wonderful adventure!


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## tetsujin28 (Aug 26, 2005)

MonsterMash said:
			
		

> The Temple of the Frog in Supplement 2 _Blackmoor_ was poor as the stats were incomplete and it was badly organised.



Oh, come on. _Everything_ was badly organized, back then. That module's great fun. And it has giant frogs


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## tetsujin28 (Aug 26, 2005)

Krug said:
			
		

> So what's the worst 3E adventure so far?



Doesn't one of the first ones for 3e by WotC have the "placid pool" that's actually like DC25 to cross and plummets you down 100'. Yeah, great adventure design for 1st level.


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## Frostmarrow (Aug 26, 2005)

S. Baldrick said:
			
		

> The whole time of troubles series: Shadowdale, Tantras and Waterdeep.  The player characters took a back seat to the NPCs.  They were just along for the ride.  Don’t get me wrong, there were some great adventures that were published for Forgotten Realms.  The Horde/Horse Lord trilogy of adventures were awesome.  I just really hated the time of troubles trilogy.  Heck, maybe it was just our DM at the time.




It wasn't your DM. We had a pretty good DM and the campaign was great. We all hated S-T-W, though. The worst part is when you get thrown into prison for murdering Elminster... "Yeah, we killed the old fart! Or at least we would if we could." Turns out Elminster wasn't dead at all, he had just gone to complete the module or something.


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## tetsujin28 (Aug 26, 2005)

Man, that's crap on a crap cracker.


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## amethal (Aug 26, 2005)

A'koss said:
			
		

> I was just going through my box of useless modules and I think there are a few that should get nominated through sheer obscurity...
> 
> Mystery of the Snow Pearls?
> Bane of Llywelyn?
> ...



I loved War Rafts of Kron.

It had tritons with sea horse chariots, those giant water termite thingies to attack the bottom of boats, a storm giant, a submarine, a singing vampire. I'd always wanted to DM an underwater adventure, and this was it.

Of course, it suffered from the same problem as most of the other X series modules, in that I didn't have a clue what it was about.   

I re-read them all recently, and even being 20 years older and (hopefully) wiser I struggled to follow them. I imagined the author of each writing a beautiful introduction, setting the scene and laying out the plot for the DM, only to have the editor cut it each time to get the page count down.


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## Inconsequenti-AL (Aug 26, 2005)

Another vote for Nightfang Spire here. That thing really sucked. Was worse, because it read a lot better than it played. Stopped playing 3E for quite a while after that horror.

On the upside, at least I learned a lot about how to annoy players.


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## FreeTheSlaves (Aug 26, 2005)

Back in the day a friend ran some FR campaign which all I can remember was meeting all the big wigs in Waterdeep, then travelling some railroad after some wizard & then realizing we weren't needed for the adventure to continue. It had a picture on the cover of the wizard leering over us, I think it was Elmunster.

Noteworthy Roll-call of dishonour:
1. Baltron's Beacon
2. Maze of Zayenne

Now actually there were a couple of 3rd party modules that we ran with a bit of fun, one had a feathered red dragon in some wizards mansion & the best was some cliff-top city having a festival with an evil spirit about to erupt & goblins in the caverns below. That was the first adventure I played & we killed or stuffed ourselves so often that we restarted it about 3 times but it was freakingly hilarious.

I remember realizing that I could stash anything I could carry & my first thief did exactly that; my inventory was filled to the brim with candlesticks, wool, you name it.


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## Melan (Aug 26, 2005)

tetsujin28 said:
			
		

> Oh, come on. _Everything_ was badly organized, back then. That module's great fun. And it has giant frogs



Preach it! Man, it has lasers, and *Giant Frogs* and cultists and crashed spaceships. That is the epitome of cool. The only thing missing is *BIG  SNAKES*.


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## tetsujin28 (Aug 26, 2005)

Big effing snakes and giant frogs are both marks of quality, AFAIC


----------



## diaglo (Aug 26, 2005)

The worst product I ever bought for D&D.

The Shady Dragon Inn...

it wasn't an adventure really.

but they packaged it like one.

even including a bunch of product placement for their plushie line and plastic toy line.

followed up by Quest for the Heartstone...

Pootie...


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## Tinner (Aug 26, 2005)

The horror that was Hour of the Knife

Railroad plot that even included specal necromantic scarab imlpants that would burrow into your heart and kill you if you deviated from the plot. Horrible weak clues that left our party with no idea what to do to solve 

The only way it could have been worse is if it had explosion dogs in it.
Wait ... actually, that might have made it better.


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## wedgeski (Aug 26, 2005)

Pants said:
			
		

> *Expedition to Barrier Peaks* gets nominated for the bunch of stupid, sci-fi garbage in the module. I can accetp warforged, but robots? C'mon!



One of my favourite... adventures... _ever_. I wouldn't want to play a campaign that mixed those elements, sure, but as a one-off it was a bit of an eye-opener for me back then. Suddenly RPG's weren't all about D&D/fantasy.

To get back on-message...

*Tragidore* was very bad; I have terrible memories of *Dungeonland* but I suspect that was more about the DM than the module (I'll have to get it and find out); and *Castle Greyhawk* still makes me weep when I think about it, deliberate parody or not. I'm actually stretching to think of other modules that I didn't enjoy in some form or another.


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## Ambrus (Aug 26, 2005)

ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> Egg of the Phoenix. It apparently was a series of RPGA modules strung together, as I recall. I remember it as a poorly-written mess. It just didn't hang together well.



I was wondering if anyone else remembered this stinker. You're right about it being a mess. Granted, we had a bad DM, but even once he'd pushed us through the entire adventure we still had no idea what the plot had been about. We were higher level and had killed some things along the way but had no real idea why.  

I know this borders on blasphemy, but I'd have to nominate the original *Tomb of Horrors*. The words "save or die" show up way to often in the text. Also, it's usually a complete toss up whether a particular action will safely unlock the next part of the adventure or simply kill you outright. We eventually resorted to just flipping coins to decide what to do; a strategy that seemed to work as well as careful deliberation.


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## Tetsubo (Aug 26, 2005)

loki44 said:
			
		

> *Under the Storm Giant's Castle*
> 
> I hate to throw Judges Guild under the bus like that, but I had to.  It's a god-awful module.
> And yes, JG had permission to produce "official" D&D products back then.




This module might be my fondest gaming memory. I can remember finally killing the Big Baddy and running outside to tell some players that were leaving. The entire group out on the lawn at 3 AM screaming and jumping around that we had "beat" the module. Ah... the good old days...


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## Tetsubo (Aug 26, 2005)

Pants said:
			
		

> *Expedition to Barrier Peaks* gets nominated for the bunch of stupid, sci-fi garbage in the module. I can accetp warforged, but robots? C'mon!
> 
> *In Search of the Unknown* gets nominated for being just dull. It's nice that Gygax and Co created an adventure _specifically_ to help novice DM's (that's a worthy goal!), but the adventure outline is just dull.
> 
> *That Epic Adventure in the ELH*. My god. What a horrible adventure. What's the best way to showcase an Epic Level Party's abilities? Why, a dungeoncrawl of course! But, it's on the Elemental Plane of FIRE. You know, the Plane that's really HOT. And everything, every creature in the adventure is EPIC with a capital E with many exclamation points following. Ugh, please, this adventure just sucks.




Expedition to Barrier Peaks, one of my all time favorite modules. I've used the SF/D&D story line in EVERY D&D campaign I've ever run. Heck I've used in every Gamma World campaign I've ever run as well. Nothing like the look on a players face when something happens that is just outside their gaming paradigm. I love that...


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## Shemeska (Aug 26, 2005)

*Walk the walk of 1000 4-Siders is my new favorite phrase *



			
				wingsandsword said:
			
		

> I'll have to give a Dishonorable Mention to Die Vecna Die *shudder*.  A Ravenloft/Planescape crossover module that wrecks the continuity and basic setting considerations of both (Vecna, a demigod, is powerful enough to force his way out of Ravenloft, then proves more powerful than the Lady of Pain (who kills Greater Gods with ease).  Whoever wrote that module needs to walk the walk of 1000 4-Siders.




Hey now, don't talk like that, Vecna might send a cultist after you armed with the mighty "molar of Vecna" or the "medial finger", "left foot", or dreaded "index finger" of Vecna with its "poke melee attack" that "inflicts 2d6 points of damage".

Sadly I am kidding about none of those...


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## VirgilCaine (Aug 26, 2005)

wedgeski said:
			
		

> I have terrible memories of *Dungeonland* but I suspect that was more about the DM than the module (I'll have to get it and find out);




What was so horrible about _Dungeonland_ (It's one of the only two modules mentioned here that I actually have--because it is available for free from WotC nowadays)?


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## PatrickLawinger (Aug 26, 2005)

Well, from 3e I nominate ...
The Standing Stone

People have said good things about this one in the past but it is terrible. The only way a DM can run a reasonably  skilled party through this and get to the final "surprise" at the end is to cheat. (won't give spoilers here)

If you have a paladin, and (or) a bard in the party and reasonably cautious players the adventure simply "breaks."

Our DM for this rocked. After the first encounter he knew we were essentially onto something so he made massive adjustments. Afterward, we discussed the module and what was "supposed to happen" and had to simply laugh.


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## Keeper of Secrets (Aug 26, 2005)

Was Die, Vecna, Die the modual where he had a bunch of underlings which had costumes with giant eyes on their heads and giant hands on their hands (making them look like lame super villains).  I swear, the guys with the hands on their heads made me think of the Hamburger Helper guy.

I know the modual was either Die, Vecna, Die or Vecna Lives.  Either way, it was stupid yet had some tongue-in-cheek humor that I could appreciate.  I have it somewhere at home but maybe a kind soul on here could save me the trouble if they remember it.


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## francisca (Aug 26, 2005)

Cam Banks said:
			
		

> This is the gaming equivalent of getting on an elevator and immediately hitting the button to open the doors while complaining that the floor was moving and you had to get off before the thing took you somewhere.
> 
> Cheers,
> Cam



That's hindsight.  DL1 was brand spanking new at the time, and this idea of modules being composed of "scenes" littered with things the players must and must not do, and NPCs they must not kill, etc.. was all new.  Prior to DL1, the railroading was minor, and an infrequent annoyance.  The early DL modules elevated the practice to a full-blown scourge, to many of us.  And, we wanted no part of it.

Recently, I have played some DL, and had a good time, but no published modules oops, I mean "adventures" have been used.

At least that's my experience.


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## Yig (Aug 26, 2005)

Standing Stones was pretty boring.


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## Mark CMG (Aug 26, 2005)

Emirikol said:
			
		

> Worst D&D adventure of all time?





I'm not sure how it actually got published in the first place, but anyone can guess what Gary had lost when he wrote the semi-LARPing, time-warping quest _The Hunt for my Car Keys_...


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## Staffan (Aug 26, 2005)

The intro adventure in the 2e FR box set was pretty bad. Especially the scene in the middle where they say "If the PCs run low on resources, you can have Elminster pass by with his dog. He is waving a stick at it, shouting 'Heel!' trying to get it to walk next to him. However, the stick is a _wand of healing_, so he'll heal the party in the process. Then he goes away." Also, the adventure is way too tough for a 1st level party (even with the Amazing Healing Elminster), so it's pretty bad for an intro adventure.

Another adventure I recall as being pretty bad was Black Flames for Dark Sun. The party is guarding a caravan between Urik and Raam (or something like that), when a sandstorm hits and separates the party from the caravan. The party is found by a nasty 21st level dragon (wizard/psionicist), who presses them into going to the ruins of Yaramuke to do something for him (because there's a powerful enchantment there that makes everyone who's evil blind). For one reason or another the adventure culminates in a big fight between that dragon and Abalach-Re, the sorcerer-queen of Raam, while the PCs run away.


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## Prince of Happiness (Aug 26, 2005)

Wow, those Marco Volo modules sucked. People caught the drift of any potential encounter and tried to dodge them as well as possible because every. Damn. Encounter. Was a fight.


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## Dr_Rictus (Aug 26, 2005)

Pants said:
			
		

> *Expedition to Barrier Peaks* gets nominated for the bunch of stupid, sci-fi garbage in the module. I can accetp warforged, but robots? C'mon!




You undoubtably meant to say "I can accept robots, but warforged?  C'mon!"

At least, that's what *I* would have meant to say.  Really, if you don't want chocolate in your peanut butter, stay out of Greyhawk.


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## Joël of the FoS (Aug 26, 2005)

Silver Moon said:
			
		

> I'll nominate TSR's first *Ravenloft* module.




This is too my all time favorite, with other in the "I" serie of adventures. Indeed, the DM had to hide the adventure cover, but it was often the case back then: the cover gave away many spoilers.

And the "one who shall not be named" adventure  turned out quite well with my team. Fun to DM, fun to play. You can't save the world all the time

Joël


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Aug 26, 2005)

The Return To The Temple Of Elemental Evi.  It seemed more like an exercise in template creation and re-writing Greyhawk lore based on a classic module, than an attempt at creating a solid gaming experience.

I don't nominate Castle Greyhawk becuase it's a given that it is so bad that there can be nothing worse.  We should name this thread the Castle Greyhawk Award for worst module ever.  

P.S.  Expedition To The Barrier Peaks is a great module.  My high level party is going to go through it in a little while.


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## DaveMage (Aug 26, 2005)

The Sword of the Dales was my least-favorite.

I don't remember the details now, but my party did something slightly out of the ordinary and it invalidated the remainder of the entire module.

I was also pretty peeved because the entire trilogy of adventures really could have been released as 1 product.


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## kobold (Aug 26, 2005)

loki44 said:
			
		

> *Under the Storm Giant's Castle*
> 
> I hate to throw Judges Guild under the bus like that, but I had to.  It's a god-awful module.
> And yes, JG had permission to produce "official" D&D products back then.



This module had the ballon-people or bubble-people that popped if you poked them!


----------



## Remathilis (Aug 26, 2005)

Damn... Only D&D modules eh?

I must admit, that Bleak House was pretty horrible and a railroaded mess. 

Whispers of the Vampire's Blade is another mess on wheels.

however my alltime crapatistical award goes to The Deva Spark (PS). The module is you following a demon across the planes, nearly getting killed in the Abyss (opening of the module) and creating a new mosnter type (half-deva, half-bebelith) that is neither described well nor pictured, let alone statted. 

Miserable, just miserable.


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## Maggan (Aug 26, 2005)

*It's not about Stradh being a vampire*



			
				Joël of the FoS said:
			
		

> This is too my all time favorite, with other in the "I" serie of adventures. Indeed, the DM had to hide the adventure cover, but it was often the case back then: the cover gave away many spoilers.
> 
> And the "one who shall not be named" adventure  turned out quite well with my team. Fun to DM, fun to play. You can't save the world all the time
> 
> Joël




Ok, to start with I6. It's one of my favourite modules ever. For us it was never about discovering that Stradh was a vampire, it was discovering his backstory and how it all fitted together. Every time I've run it myself (was a player first time), even if no one saw the cover, they pretty quick identified what Stradh was. "Hmmm ... this setup ... hmmm ... these names ... a castle with a lord ... it's a vampire ... cool".

To contribute with naming a module I didn't like, I'll nominate Earthshaker, the companion level adventure with a huge gnome-operated machine thing. Never liked the adventure. Also the master-series adventure were not to my liking.

As for non-D&D, and only d20, I nominate ... oh wait, that would be straying from the topic. I guess you're gonna have to lay awake at night wondering what I think the worst d20 adventure is.   

Cheers!

M.


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## ColonelHardisson (Aug 26, 2005)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> For 2nd Edition I'd have to say Return To The Tomb Of Horrors. Extra-Planar? Eh.




Man...I still think this is one of the greatest adventures ever, and it's my favorite boxed set. A great adventure, with tons of atmosphere. It's the scariest module I've ever had experience with.

Expedition to the barrier Peaks was also extremely fun - we lapped it up when it first appeared. In retrospect, it seems inevitable that there would be a module like this early on. Mixing genres was something my group had already been doing before we even saw this module.

Back to the worst.

Five Shall Be One and Howl From The North wouldn't be so bad, _except_ that as soon as the PCs complete the quest 



Spoiler



Iuz appears in disguise as a barbarian god and takes the swords the PCs have worked hard to gather and scatters them across the world. The author doesn't even leave room for the PCs to do anything but give up the swords and watch as they vanish. Durned frustrating. I worked out a far different ending to avoid such an unfair conclusion.


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## Grand_Director (Aug 26, 2005)

spunky_mutters said:
			
		

> We had a lot of modules go badly, but Ravager of Time was the worst. The party gets turned into geriatrics in the early going, and must finish the adventure like that. Eventually they have to fight the lifebane duplicates of themselves who are better than the old versions (and the bbeg is there too). I don't see any way to avoid a tpk unless you softball the party a lot. My players rebelled, and I don't blame them.




My players rebelled also!  A three year game flushed because of this game.  I made the mistake of thinking that the players would love the twist and the challenge.  I learned that players will stand for anything EXCEPT changes to characters that affect the way they play.  The PCs get so nerfed in this adventure that it causes nothing but frustration.  

A hard lesson to learn, but one I have never forgot.


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## Caspiar (Aug 26, 2005)

A'koss said:
			
		

> I was just going through my box of useless modules and I think there are a few that should get nominated through sheer obscurity...
> 
> Mystery of the Snow Pearls?
> Bane of Llywelyn?
> ...



 Castanimir is actually one of the main reasons i got back into D&D during the 2nd edition...

War Rafts was fun.....a little goofy

and Bane of LLewelyn was the second part of to Find A King....taken by itself it makes no sense, but as a two parter it is an excellent mystery, wilth a helluva twist ending...
i liked it so much, i added the kingdom to my Greyahawk...

the worst one is simply Gargoyles (any time snowcones appear in a module, it can not be good)...

and Expedition to the Barrier Peaks.......at the time i did not want technology in my D& D and it just did not work for me.......


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## rogueattorney (Aug 26, 2005)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> *Curse of the Azure Bonds*.
> 
> Total  from start to finish. You follow the storyline of the novel, _complete with protagonists_ (The requisite sexy girl and her extra-dimensional Lizardman Paladin buddy) and watch them have the adventure while you tag along.
> 
> Sucked hard.




Yeah, that's a really good one... er bad one.

I actually thought the previous module in that series FRC1 Ruins of Adventure was worse.  That'll be my candidate.

R.A.


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## rogueattorney (Aug 26, 2005)

GuardianLurker said:
			
		

> B3 had a map that was essentially unplayable - stairs missing, encounters misnumbered, etc. To save it you almost had to completely rewrite it.




If you're referring to the orange covered version that is now available for free download from the WotC OOP downloads page, that is precisely what happened, it was recalled and completely rewritten.  

If you're referring to the green version that was mass produced back in the 80's, then I don't have the slightest idea of what you're talking about.  There's a lot of reasons why the green version of PotSP isn't my favorite module of the day, but poor editing isn't one of them.

R.A.


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## jcfiala (Aug 26, 2005)

Pants said:
			
		

> *Expedition to Barrier Peaks* gets nominated for the bunch of stupid, sci-fi garbage in the module. I can accetp warforged, but robots? C'mon!




Well, I don't think it's bad because it has robots.  But it's still not a very strong module.  You're wandering up in the mountains, trying to find out where the rediculously strong and weird monsters are coming from.  You get three days to wander through a spaceship where most everything is either dead, a plant, or a robot, and at the end of it all there's not much you can do to solve the problem other than to bury the entrances.

I added a lich with an interest in extraplanar travel and had him turn the whole thing into his personal dimention travelling castle.  And the players are going along with it.  *laugh*


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## Steel_Wind (Aug 26, 2005)

Many of the DL campaign modules are open ended and feature some of the greatest maps ever done for D&D in any edition.

DL1 is a heavy handed railroad.  It lightens up progressivley until the railroad disappears half-way through the series.

They were feeling their way. To dismiss all 12 modules because of the first few, or worse, one DM you had 20 years ago, is naught but uninformed opinion.


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## wingsandsword (Aug 26, 2005)

Signs the Adventure You're Writing Might End Up in this Thread:

1. It's based entirely around some metaplot/storyline event to your world, where there is only one real way for things to unfold, especially if it lets major NPC's do all the important stuff while the PC's are just spectators.

2. You think something "silly" or "wacky" is nice for a change of pace or you are writing a comedy or parody module in anotherwise serious game.

3. The railroading is so heavy that PC's have no choice but to follow one very linear path, with a total inabilty to make any actual choices, or even worse, be immediately punished if they even try to deviate from the predetermined path.

4. The adventure is out-of-genre with the source material.  This includes robots and rayguns in a normal fantasy setting, or being very unfaithful to the novels or other original material for your setting.

5. You directly interfere with the players ability to play their characters.  Starting out an adventure by crippling, aging, or debilitating them, and making them play through the entire module to undo whatver horrible bad thing happened to them at first just to get back to normal.

6. A super-powerful NPC acts as a Deus Ex Machina, completely obliviating any need for the PC's, or just as bad, is blatantly there and refuses to help the PC's for no apparent reason than to be an adventure hook (he could solve the entire adventure with one spell, or a trifling amount of work, but instead puts you through life & limb challenges for only the metagame reason that otherwise there would be no adventure).

7. Your adventure is blatantly written to be just product placement for your tie-in merchandising, and is meant to be unrunnable without them.

8.  One Huge Spoiler could ruin the whole adventure, and it's on the very cover of the product or in the very name of it.

9.  It introduces a new monster, that breaks all the existing rules of the setting, especially if it isn't completely described or even statted up.

10. Anybody want to finish off a Top 10 List?


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## egomann (Aug 26, 2005)

I can't belive no one has said it yet...


Throne of Bloodstone.

Has anyone ever tried to run this adventure? Maps and illustrations that don't make sense, horribley munchkined out encounters. A laundry list of every Demon Prince used as a simple encounter for the players to overwhelm.

Hell it even says in the introduction that it is for a "Monty Haul" game.


Bad Bad Bad.


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## Shemeska (Aug 26, 2005)

Remathilis said:
			
		

> however my alltime crapatistical award goes to The Deva Spark (PS). The module is you following a demon across the planes, nearly getting killed in the Abyss (opening of the module) and creating a new mosnter type (half-deva, half-bebelith) that is neither described well nor pictured, let alone statted.
> 
> Miserable, just miserable.




I rather liked the module. I never played it, but having read through it, it had some pretty imaginative concepts sprinkled throughout. Outside of not providing hard stats for the possible new critter at the end of the module (which I can't view as a flaw. Stats are often superfluous, and especially in this case), what's the complaint?


----------



## diaglo (Aug 26, 2005)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> Many of the DL campaign modules are open ended and feature some of the greatest maps ever done for D&D in any edition.
> 
> DL1 is a heavy handed railroad.  It lightens up progressivley until the railroad disappears half-way through the series.
> 
> They were feeling their way. To dismiss all 12 modules because of the first few, or worse, one DM you had 20 years ago, is naught but uninformed opinion.





i can tell you with a very informed opinion that the DL modules are crap.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Aug 26, 2005)

Very much so.  I used to have them back when DL was fairly new, and even then after looking at them I thought it would be more fun for the group to just sit around and read the novels together. At least then you don't try to fool yourself into thinking your choices make a difference in how the plot plays out.


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## MonsterMash (Aug 26, 2005)

tetsujin28 said:
			
		

> Big effing snakes and giant frogs are both marks of quality, AFAIC



Agreed, and it has been a long time since I looked at the Blackmoor supplement. Unlike the _Blackmoor_ campaign setting released this year which rocks.


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## Keeper of Secrets (Aug 26, 2005)

egomann said:
			
		

> I can't belive no one has said it yet...
> 
> 
> Throne of Bloodstone.
> ...




Hmmm.  And I loved MINES of Bloodstone.


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## Voadam (Aug 26, 2005)

Emirikol said:
			
		

> So...of all the _______________OFFICIAL_______________________ D&D/AD&D/oD&D scenarios you've played or DM'ed, which one is the worst.
> 
> 
> jh





That I've DMd or played? Castle greyhawk was silly but the parts I ran were fun when I ran them.

I'd have to say Ship of Horrors for Ravenloft. It doesn't make enough use of its cool elements such as the three ghosts or the undead who can pull off their limbs. Ravenloft empowers undead to grossly powerful levels but the necromancer's created undead are not empowered. There is a whole section of the plot where the DM is left on his own with just a family chart and set of personalities, no guidance on using them or even a map of the home where the party will interact with them. I ran a really cool adventure using the module, but it was cool because I fleshed everything out on my own and put the elements they had in there to some relevant use that the PCs could interact with and notice. As a DM tool for out of the box use it was really poor.

Lord of the Iron Fortress is pretty much the same way for 3e. No real intro hook. It fleshes out a planar city where the PCs are supposed to do major investigation with half a page of description. Important NPC information scenes happen because the party just runs into them radomly at coincidentally the right time. The information clues leading to the next stages are just dumb gimmes and don't explain why the NPCs don't act on their information even though they have more direct interests than the PCs. BBEG is a cult follower but all his clerics are followers of different gods. The Macguffin doom sword is pathetically unimportant even if the PCs fail and it is completed/created. Major rewrite required throughout.


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## francisca (Aug 26, 2005)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> Many of the DL campaign modules are open ended and feature some of the greatest maps ever done for D&D in any edition.
> 
> DL1 is a heavy handed railroad.  It lightens up progressivley until the railroad disappears half-way through the series.
> 
> They were feeling their way. To dismiss all 12 modules because of the first few, or worse, one DM you had 20 years ago, is naught but uninformed opinion.



1) First impressions mean a lot.
2) By your own admission, the railroading continues, for 4-5 more modules.  I was, in fact, informed of that.  We didn't give DL another look until DL3 or 4 was out.  We saw more railroading.  We walked away, and chalked it up as a "novel hiding as an adventure" that it was.  End of story.  We saw 3 or 4 modules in a row of the DL series, each with what we considered to be a fatal flaw. We then decided we wouldn't enjoy it.  Hell, we even tried to play one!  I'd say that is a pretty well informed opinion.  It's not like those of us bad-mouthing DL1 are just taking part in an internet dogpile.
3) Hindsight is 20/20.  At the time, no way.  Today?  No way.  Why wade through half a series just because of the maps, hoping the railroading goes away?
4) Since then, I have played in DL, and enjoyed it.  It's a very rich setting.  I would just rather explore it, rather than take the guided tour.

So, DL setting?  Pretty cool!  Early DL modules?  Well, in my opinion, DL1 belongs on the "crappy modules" list, because it is a "heavy handed railroad".  I didn't give the others a chance, because when we looked at them, and talked to other gamers, we found the same set of tracks.  But, not having played them, they don't make my list of crummy modules.


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## Numion (Aug 26, 2005)

I actually thought that Heart of Nightfang Spire was actually pretty good, as far as adventure path modules go. Nice atmosphere, good 'tools' for the DM (I hate DMing pushover adventures) and the location was pretty cool. My players did good against the dreaded Girallons, so it was no biggie. A bit repetitive, though. But otherwise a stand-up adventure. 

For bad adventures, Lord of the Iron Fortress was baaaad. While some locations were ok, the alien-lookalike iron beasts were stupid, but it was the end fight that ruined the whole thing. My players, who usually never give up, never went back to the end fight after retreating once, and I can't blame them. 

Also, Deep Horizon sucked pretty bad. It was a mess, and it had the Desmodus. Holy hell, were they actually supposed to be cool? Too much wasted space on them, so I wasn't too happy when they appeared in MM2 also ..

However, Bastion of Broken Souls was a worthy end to our adventure path campaign. Give it a try. The end fight is nice, even though pretty challenging.


----------



## freebfrost (Aug 26, 2005)

I'd have to throw my vote in for the Dragonlance series, if only because they were so railroaded from the start.

While I enjoyed running _Castle Greyhawk_ as a comedy module, I wished they had done it with a serious note, but on the whole it was good for what it was.

I thoroughly enjoyed the first _Ravenloft_ module, even if everyone knew what Strahd was - it is an homage to Dracula after all.  I just wish they had left out some of the comedic elements in that one too - the lame names on the tombstones for one.


----------



## devilbat (Aug 26, 2005)

> To dismiss all 12 modules because of the first few, or worse, one DM you had 20 years ago, is naught but uninformed opinion.




Thats what my problem is, I'm uninformed!  My informed opinion is that you are just a tad defensive.  The DM, twenty years ago was great.  The first five adventures were not.


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## sniffles (Aug 26, 2005)

S. Baldrick said:
			
		

> The whole time of troubles series: Shadowdale, Tantras and Waterdeep.  The player characters took a back seat to the NPCs.  They were just along for the ride.  Don’t get me wrong, there were some great adventures that were published for Forgotten Realms.  The Horde/Horse Lord trilogy of adventures were awesome.  I just really hated the time of troubles trilogy.  Heck, maybe it was just our DM at the time.




Nah, it wasn't just your GM. My GM heavily modified that series of modules and it still sucked for the PCs. We enjoyed the game, but it was just wrong to put the NPCs before the PCs, and there were way too many NPCs in that story. 

I saw one pamphlet adventure from AEG or one of those folks - can't remember the title, but it had the PCs being asked to find the source of some special spring water. For some reason this source had been discovered by an innkeeper and he was marketing it like Evian. But stupidly, the spring was *right outside the town*!! Why no one could find it... well, it was just dumb plotting on the part of whoever wrote the adventure.


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## jester47 (Aug 26, 2005)

Ruins of Adventure is salvageable.  Redraw the maps, tweak the plot a little.

Die Vecna Die is great if you stop after the confrontation between Vecna and Iuz.  

This thread makes me realise that I really have no prob with selling all my old stuff as I realised that I would never use it.  

Many of the covers are more evocative than the adventures that they represented. 

Aaron.


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## shmoo2 (Aug 26, 2005)

Already mentioned, and indeed really bad:

Sword of the Dales- boring plot, ugly maps, and only perhaps 6 encounters

Curse of the Azure Bonds- nothing for the PCs to do

Gargoyle, Child's Play- couldn't even finish reading these they're so boring

I8 Ravager of Time- as already mentioned, nerfing the PCs at the modules beginning is not fun.

I11 Needle- boring plot, silly maze

Heart of Nightfang Spire- repetitive and boring

Also deserve some infamy:

C2 Ghost Tower of Inverness- don't understand how this made Dungeon mag's 'best of list'. Encounters like the Chess trap room are just silly and break suspension of disbelief completely.

N2 The Forest Oracle- generic and boring plot, ugly maps

Quest for the Silver Sword- This BD&D module came with a poster map of the castle for the players to look at and move around on. Trouble is- the room numbers are printed on the map, so the players know to go directly to the room with the highest number to find the sword.

X6: Quagmire!- boring, pointliess plot and repetitive swamp encounters


----------



## Diremede (Aug 26, 2005)

mearls said:
			
		

> Any of the adventures from TSR's "repeatedly stab Greyhawk in the face and hope it dies" phase, from the late 80s, early 90s:
> 
> Gargoyles
> 
> ...




I loved gargoyles, in a comedic sort of way and terrible trouble at tragidor, well it was terrible.


----------



## Melan (Aug 26, 2005)

Staffan said:
			
		

> The intro adventure in the 2e FR box set was pretty bad. Especially the scene in the middle where they say "If the PCs run low on resources, you can have Elminster pass by with his dog. He is waving a stick at it, shouting 'Heel!' trying to get it to walk next to him. However, the stick is a _wand of healing_, so he'll heal the party in the process. Then he goes away." Also, the adventure is way too tough for a 1st level party (even with the Amazing Healing Elminster), so it's pretty bad for an intro adventure.



Oh yes, more memories. After I read that adventure (and the rest of the setting material), I put it back in my brand spanking new FR box and promptly returned it to the game store, exchanged it for Dragon Mountain. Painful, painful stuff.


----------



## tetsujin28 (Aug 26, 2005)

Remathilis said:
			
		

> I must admit, that Bleak House was pretty horrible and a railroaded mess.



Really? I used to own it, but never really got much of a look at it before I had to move and sold it. It seems to be a fave amongst Ravenlofties.


----------



## Angel of Adventure (Aug 26, 2005)

I didn't find the ELH adventure to be that bad, though I altered the story considerably to make it fit the campaign.  The adventure ended with the Infernal laying siege to the tower and that was a lot of fun.  Per the adventure itself, it did have a humbling effect on the PCs who were very challenged to get thru it.

Per worst, Dragonlance mods and also Undermountain.  Cool maps, but pretty boring overall.


----------



## DungeonmasterCal (Aug 26, 2005)

This thread makes me soooooo happy that I don't DM published modules, and thankfully have only played in maybe two of the ones mentioned so far.

Go, Homebrew, GO!


----------



## Tarangil (Aug 26, 2005)

I agree with the one who reccommended *Trouble in Traigadore*.

 That one wouldn't even be accepted by Dungeon magazine!  Don't ask me how it was stuck in the DM screen.


----------



## jcfiala (Aug 26, 2005)

DungeonmasterCal said:
			
		

> This thread makes me soooooo happy that I don't DM published modules, and thankfully have only played in maybe two of the ones mentioned so far.
> 
> Go, Homebrew, GO!




That seems a bit nasty to say.  Out of the 100-200 modules that get published, we're identifying about 10-20 or so that are bad... that beats out Sturgeon's Law by a mile, I think.

Do you also write your own fiction so you can avoid reading bad novels?


----------



## DungeonmasterCal (Aug 26, 2005)

jcfiala said:
			
		

> That seems a bit nasty to say.  Out of the 100-200 modules that get published, we're identifying about 10-20 or so that are bad... that beats out Sturgeon's Law by a mile, I think.
> 
> Do you also write your own fiction so you can avoid reading bad novels?




Nope...I just haven't found anything I wanted to read!  Same with movies.  Not much really grabs me and says "Read me!" or "Watch me!" anymore.


----------



## Evilhalfling (Aug 26, 2005)

DL 1 - tried it, Rastlin got killed in the first fight  (with hobgoblins) and we put it back on the shelf.  It wins. 

I liked reading greyhawk castle - but would never play it.  (runner up) 
I liked greyhawk ruins.  Sure there were no tie-ins to GH histoy, but the tower of war was a lot of fun, with a orcs of all variations living in two seperate camp, and thier own gold mine. 

the other two towers were a little random.


----------



## StupidSmurf (Aug 26, 2005)

OK, regarding "Castle Greyhawk"...let me just say this...in the words of a lot of defendants at Nuremburg: "We were just following orders."

I'm new on this forum, but not new to RPing. My name's John Terra and I've written a butt-load (official unit of measurement) of TSR/WEG stuff from about the mid-80's to 2000, and I still dabble a bit here and there in the ol' freelance game. One of my war crimes was a level of Castle Greyhawk.

Castle Greyhawk was awful, yes, but...yeah, that's what TSR wanted: a humorous take on the dungeon. As I recall, even the paperwork/proposal that we all got, describing the work to be done, was written tongue-in-cheek.

So, which level am I to blame for? It was called "The Name of The Game". Thank you, thank you, feel free to pick up your torches and pitchforks at the door. I promise not to put up a fight.   

As for some of the other "nominees" I've read on this thread:

1. Barrier Peaks: Awww...I liked it. Granted, I wouldn't have wanted our entire campaign to be set up like it, but hey, it was a nice change of pace for what it was.

2. The original Tomb of Horrors. Surely you jest. This was the "Killer Dungeon" that all Killer Dungeons were patterned after. Truly, a perverted masterpiece.

3. Dungeonland. "Hey, let's get cute and turn Alice In Wonderland into a two module series! What can go wrong?" Plenty. Blargh. 

4. Modules based on Novels, Computer Games. I've always avoided these like the plague. Too much risk of the featured NPCs overshadowing the PCs, and too much plot-hammering.

5. Module B1. This was "Into the Unknown", wasn't it? The castle called Quasqueton? Came with my boxed set. This one was a sentimental favorite of mine because it was just a very simple, straightforward dungeon, a god-send for a (then)fledgling DM to get his feet wet with. It was good for what it was supposed to be.

6. Return to the Tomb of Horrors. Bought it. Tried to run it. Pass.

Nowadays, I run my group through the Forgotten Realms, but use my own home-grown adventures. Everyone's happier, including me!


----------



## Arcane Runes Press (Aug 26, 2005)

Voadam said:
			
		

> That I've DMd or played? Castle greyhawk was silly but the parts I ran were fun when I ran them.
> 
> I'd have to say Ship of Horrors for Ravenloft. It doesn't make enough use of its cool elements such as the three ghosts or the undead who can pull off their limbs. Ravenloft empowers undead to grossly powerful levels but the necromancer's created undead are not empowered. There is a whole section of the plot where the DM is left on his own with just a family chart and set of personalities, no guidance on using them or even a map of the home where the party will interact with them. I ran a really cool adventure using the module, but it was cool because I fleshed everything out on my own and put the elements they had in there to some relevant use that the PCs could interact with and notice. As a DM tool for out of the box use it was really poor.




Ship of Horrors is a masterpiece compared to Thoughts of Darkness, a "gothic horror" module which features:

a realm that looks like something off the cover of Heavy Metal Magazine

Roving bands of 15th to 18th level drow warriors, wizards, and rogues

Massively overpowered hordes of spellcasting, vampiric Illithid

And a ridiculously stupid "God brain" that reads like something out of 60's era DC comics. 


It's absolute garbage from start to finish, a hackfest module that takes the supposed feel of Ravenloft out behind the woodshed and beats it with an axe handle. I don't know how the hell the module ever made it past concept stage, let alone onto store shelves. 

Patrick Y.


----------



## Sargon the Kassadian (Aug 26, 2005)

I'll try not to derail the thread to much.../hijack

What is a good 1st Edition Module (free?) that we could get off of the interweb, as our group wants to run a 1st Ed. game?


----------



## Voadam (Aug 26, 2005)

Arcane Runes Press said:
			
		

> Ship of Horrors is a masterpiece compared to Thoughts of Darkness, a "gothic horror" module which features:
> 
> a realm that looks like something off the cover of Heavy Metal Magazine
> 
> ...




What, you didn't like the vampire who deliberately taunted a ghost whose touch caused aging so she could instantly get the super powers of the older vampire categories (such as five levels of energy drain on a hit)?  

Own it but never ran it after reading it. Nor any of the ravenloft ones that take players out of their bodies and put them into new ones (dolls, golems, behead them then put them in different characters bodies back in time, etc.)

Ship of Horrors and LoIF get my votes for worst I have run. Thoughts of Darkness and From the Shadows, etc. are not in the running because I have not run them.  

The Rakshasa one has some bad elements in it too and I ran it after modifying heavily. An indian culture where non natives are killed as the evil theocracy's number one priority, but there is a non-native, white, red haired FR orphan girl who becomes the party's guide who gets around the deadly assassin cult, priestess network, and constant informants by wearing a mask to hide her features.


----------



## thompgc (Aug 26, 2005)

I agree with the original DL modules
What a railroad
Just read the novels and role a few dice, would be better

Labrynth of Madness was rather insane.
Not just a killer dungeon, but infuriating search for tattoo granting items

Crazy death traps of all sorts
invisible trolls with metal staves that had glass globes that contained black puddings - whack an adventurer and enjoy
Ladders that blast you with lightning so you fall onto the finger of death type trap

But the real fun was trying to track down tons of hidden areas that would grant tattoos.
This tattoos were needed to access certain areas and back tracking was needed as sometimes you needed a tattoo to reveal something that previously wasn't in the room.

Add in the fact that there was an error that made it impossible to collect the tattoos needed and you have quite the winner.


----------



## -Warlord- (Aug 26, 2005)

> Another adventure I recall as being pretty bad was Black Flames for Dark Sun.




One more vote for Black Flames. It's even worse because this is a beginning level adventure. Our DM started our Darksun campaign with it. And *bang* first adventure starts with not one, but TWO of the settings most rare and powerfull creatures.
We only survived because our DM got the rules of Hold Person wrong, and let us go free when we were damaged by the first fireball.
And running away wasn't easy either. I remember Obsidian Golems breaking free out of a row of columns, that attacked us while the whole place was coming down. We had to run the gauntlet, with every hit that these golems could land meaning instant death (2d6 damage to an already battered 3rd level character).
It felt like we only survived by DM-grace, not because of any wise tactics or clever use of own abilities. Although, we did kill one of the dragons when it came after us, already badly wounded. We used a psionic dimensional gate to get it in mid-air and let it drop to it's death.
And even that didn't feel right. THE most powerful creature in the book and we killed it in our first adventure? Yeah, right.

We survived, and got away with lots of goodies....too many goodies. We started at 3rd level, with only leathers and wooden weapons. We ended at 4th level with dragonskin armors and metal swords. We had wealth far above our station. And in a harsh world as Darksun, you'd expect that you won't be allowed to keep what you can't protect. But somehow no templar with halfgiant bodyguards demanded out wealth when we got back to town. 

Our campaign didn't last long after that.


----------



## Silver Moon (Aug 26, 2005)

Joël of the FoS said:
			
		

> Indeed, the DM had to hide the adventure cover, but it was often the case back then: the cover gave away many spoilers.



But the difference was since the was the launch of a whole new line TSR heavily advertised it - in Dragon, in comic books, in stores, with the cover of the module prominently featured in all the ads.   So even if the DM did try to hide the cover the chances were that one or more players had already seen the big spoiler.


----------



## Akrasia (Aug 26, 2005)

amethal said:
			
		

> I loved War Rafts of Kron....




Same here.  It was one cool module!

The worst one I ever played was DL1.  (But the maps were nice, and I had a crush on that cleric, "Moonbeam", or whatever her name was.)


----------



## Akrasia (Aug 26, 2005)

Sargon the Kassadian said:
			
		

> I'll try not to derail the thread to much.../hijack
> 
> What is a good 1st Edition Module (free?) that we could get off of the interweb, as our group wants to run a 1st Ed. game?




If I recall correctly, the WotC site will let you download a free copy of L1 (Secret of Bone Hill).

It's a fine module -- really a mini-campaign setting.


----------



## Wraith Form (Aug 26, 2005)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> *Curse of the Azure Bonds*.
> 
> Total  from start to finish. You follow the storyline of the novel, _complete with protagonists_ (The requisite sexy girl and her extra-dimensional Lizardman Paladin buddy) and watch them have the adventure while you tag along.
> 
> Sucked hard.



But.....how do you _really_ feel about it?


(dodges thrown stuff)


----------



## Pants (Aug 26, 2005)

Dr_Rictus said:
			
		

> You undoubtably meant to say "I can accept robots, but warforged?  C'mon!"



Nope, not really. 
Maybe I could accept the robots if they all didn't look like _Lost in Space_ rejects. 

I'll happily admit that my dislike is due more to a style issue than a structural one.



> At least, that's what *I* would have meant to say.  Really, if you don't want chocolate in your peanut butter, stay out of Greyhawk.



So... not being as well-versed in Greyhawk lore as I'd like... do rayguns and robots make any other appearances in the setting?


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## Qualidar (Aug 27, 2005)

Arcane Runes Press said:
			
		

> Ship of Horrors is a masterpiece compared to Thoughts of Darkness, a "gothic horror" module which features:
> a realm that looks like something off the cover of Heavy Metal Magazine
> Roving bands of 15th to 18th level drow warriors, wizards, and rogues
> Massively overpowered hordes of spellcasting, vampiric Illithid
> ...



If I remeber correctly, you got teleported away when you tried to kill the god brain, making it impossible to even "win" the module. I thought most of the Ravenloft mods had a tenuous grasp of "Gothic Horror", but Thoughts of Darkness takes the cake, and wins my vote.

~Qualidar~


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## cignus_pfaccari (Aug 27, 2005)

StupidSmurf said:
			
		

> 2. The original Tomb of Horrors. Surely you jest. This was the "Killer Dungeon" that all Killer Dungeons were patterned after. Truly, a perverted masterpiece.




Except, of course, that it's blatantly built to kill PCs who aren't supremely paranoid.

I can't really see how it's fun.  I like Return to the Tomb of Horrors much better, since it doesn't make up arbitrary rules as it goes.

Brad


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## VirgilCaine (Aug 27, 2005)

Voadam said:
			
		

> I'd have to say Ship of Horrors for Ravenloft. It doesn't make enough use of its cool elements such as the three ghosts or the undead who can pull off their limbs. Ravenloft empowers undead to grossly powerful levels but the necromancer's created undead are not empowered. There is a whole section of the plot where the DM is left on his own with just a family chart and set of personalities, no guidance on using them or even a map of the home where the party will interact with them. I ran a really cool adventure using the module, but it was cool because I fleshed everything out on my own and put the elements they had in there to some relevant use that the PCs could interact with and notice. As a DM tool for out of the box use it was really poor.




Any suggestions? 
Using the salvageable modules from the Grand Conjunction is something I would like to do (i.e. not the last two, and not Touch of Death). 



> If I recall correctly, the WotC site will let you download a free copy of L1 (Secret of Bone Hill).
> 
> It's a fine module -- really a mini-campaign setting.




Key word--setting. I have looked through it a bit, but without the simple organization of 3e modules, it's hard to go through lots of location keys, villager descriptions, etc. without some guide to what the PCs ARE SUPPOSED TO DO! The temple of Olidammara is nifty, though.

They also have the sequel module, L2, for download.


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## Staffan (Aug 27, 2005)

StupidSmurf said:
			
		

> 4. Modules based on Novels, Computer Games. I've always avoided these like the plague. Too much risk of the featured NPCs overshadowing the PCs, and too much plot-hammering.



The only module I've run that has a good tie-in to a novel is Freedom! for Dark Sun. Basically, the end of the module plays out at the same time as the finale of the novel The Verdant Passage, but the stuff that happens in the novel works mostly as a backdrop to the stuff that happens in the adventure. I'll put the specifics in spoiler blocks, just to be on the safe side.
[sblock]The main part of the adventure has the PCs enslaved, working on the sorcerer-king Kalak's ziggurat. Toward the end of the adventure, the ziggurat has been finished, and king Kalak has everyone in the city of Tyr watching the inaugural gladiator games. In the novel, during these games the main characters make an assassination attempt against Kalak, who retreats to the interior of the ziggurat where he starts a fell ritual designed to turn him into a dragon. Chaos ensues, and the protagonists seek out Kalak and kill him. The adventure has the characters trying to navigate and survive in the ensuing chaos.[/sblock]


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## Templetroll (Aug 27, 2005)

S. Baldrick said:
			
		

> The whole time of troubles series: Shadowdale, Tantras and Waterdeep.  The player characters took a back seat to the NPCs.  They were just along for the ride.  Don’t get me wrong, there were some great adventures that were published for Forgotten Realms.  The Horde/Horse Lord trilogy of adventures were awesome.  I just really hated the time of troubles trilogy.  Heck, maybe it was just our DM at the time.




It was not your DM.  The Times of Troubles modules were a horrible concept - the DM was to let the PCs fight non-entities while the characters from the books did the waycool important things they did in the books and the DM was to describe it so the PCs are awed at being in the presence of such wonderful folk/gods.   :\ 

My wife stopped running the first one and we never bought the others, we just played in FR _without _ the Times of Troubles.


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## S'mon (Aug 27, 2005)

I'm glad I missed out on most of the 2e crap.  

BTW re B3 Palace of the Silver Princess, I ran the online/original version as my first 3e scenario and it worked fine, though I mixed up Basic & 3e rules, eg I had ghosts aging on a hit, and minor magics worth huge sums of gold.  I thought it was a pretty nice introductory scenario & I didn't experience any problem with the map of the ruined palace.

The worst scenarios I've ever seen was a collection of I think 66 Lankhmar scenarios by Dale 'Slade' Henson, which had titles like "A Dying Pleea" and which comprehensively trashed the Nehwon setting, Slade (May He Rot in Hell Forever) had clearly never even read a Fafhrd/Mouser story.


----------



## Sholari (Aug 27, 2005)

Patriots of Ulek
Queen's Harvest


----------



## Hussar (Aug 27, 2005)

diaglo said:
			
		

> i can tell you with a very informed opinion that the DL modules are crap.




I too ran the first 9 of these.  So, I've got a pretty informed opinion as well.  They sucked.  Badly.  You couldn't kill any NPC for the first, what, 8 modules?  Hope you have your tickets ready, cos this train is leaving town.  Very, very bad modules.

On a side note, DL 16 and 17 (or was it 15 and 16?), the ones with the mini side treks, actually had a number of pretty decent adventures that saw use in my campaigns.

It just goes to show that one man's garbage and all that.


----------



## DarrenGMiller (Aug 27, 2005)

Here is my list (not in order):

_Hour of the Knife_: Railroaded plot with a twist to guarantee the ire of every player at the table.

_Needle_: Silly talking spiders that say, "Gee Whiz!" over. and over. and over.  Actually, this silliness and politically correct "young gamer/child friendly" phase of 2E was one of the things that made me stop playing for a while.  Any of them could make this list.

_The Silver Key_: The PC's can stay trapped in other bodies forever, and likely will.

_Lost Island of Castanamir_:  bad gimmicks

_Secret of Bone Hill_: I know someone else praised this one, but my players were bored and confused.  We scrapped it quickly.

_Dragonlance_:  based on novels. "Come on ride the train..."  We actually played the first nine adventures.


_Gargoyles_: see _Needle_

_Puppets_: see_ Needle_

_Howl from the North_/_Five Shall Be One_:  I bought these with great expectations of an epic quest, but discovered it was only a plot to destroy my favorite campaign setting!

_Curse of Xanathon_: see _Needle_

Now on the other hand, here are some that we played and enjoyed: _Expedition to the Barrier Peaks_, _Tomb of Horrors_, _Castle Greyhawk_, _Beyond the Magic Mirror_ and _Dungeonland_, _Ravenloft_, _Egg of the Phoenix_, _Ghost Tower of Inverness_.

One final question:  If we subtract the nostalgia factor, would _Keep on the Borderlands _ make this list?


DM


----------



## Silver Moon (Aug 27, 2005)

wolf70 said:
			
		

> _Secret of Bone Hill_: I know someone else praised this one, but my players were bored and confused.  We scrapped it quickly.



We had a bad experience with that one too, but I think it was more the fault of the novice DM than the module.


----------



## Hussar (Aug 27, 2005)

> The Silver Key: The PC's can stay trapped in other bodies forever, and likely will.




Oh, come on, that one was great!  Orc points?  Bloody stellar idea.  You got xp for acting like an orc, but, if you did it too much you stayed an orc forever.  The other players nominated you for an orc point every time you did something orcish.  My players loved this thing.  Had an absolute blast in it.  One of the few 2e modules I really enjoyed.


----------



## Remathilis (Aug 27, 2005)

To answer two posters earlier

Bleak House: No matter what we did, we ended up railroaded. Good story, but the DM needed to know everything or else it crashed like a house of cards.

Deva Spark: The stats were the least; I didn't know how it looked, acted, or anything. Plus, the method was contrived on how you got there. My Players STILL rib me for that module...


----------



## Cam Banks (Aug 27, 2005)

Hussar said:
			
		

> I too ran the first 9 of these.  So, I've got a pretty informed opinion as well.  They sucked.  Badly.  You couldn't kill any NPC for the first, what, 8 modules?  Hope you have your tickets ready, cos this train is leaving town.  Very, very bad modules.




Sure you could kill them. Some of them will come back later, but most won't. It was a cinematic thing, aimed at representing the same sort of obscure death rule that was so evident in old movie serials and action adventure novels. The campaign wouldn't break if you killed the bad guy too early - after all, Verminaard dies at Pax Tharkas by all accounts in the novels.

Cheers,
Cam


----------



## Zappo (Aug 28, 2005)

I haven't played many modules, and I've been quite careful to pick those that felt good. The worst one was a Vecna Reborn converted to 3e, which went pretty much this way. Appear in city A. Meet guy, who on a metagame level we knew to be trouble but had no reason IC to worry much about. Travel to city B. Find out that guy is the high priest of Vecna and will resurrect the god in 3, 2, 1... get back to city A as fast as humanly possible. Meet with guy, who is just completing the ritual and whose CR is _12_ above our level. Die quickly. Even with hindsight, I can't see a way to complete it. We could have gathered more information or found out the truth earlier, but that didn't change the fact that we were 8th and he was 20th.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Aug 28, 2005)

There IS no point to The Secret of Bone Hill. Modules in that day, like Keep on the Borderlands, featured places to loot and that's it. Make your own adventure.

My groups always ended up invading the baron's castle (which was totally statted out for such misbehavior, incidentally) and trying to rob his treasure. If you can't have fun robbing the lord of the manor, you may be clinically dead.


----------



## VirgilCaine (Aug 28, 2005)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> There IS no point to The Secret of Bone Hill. Modules in that day, like Keep on the Borderlands, featured places to loot and that's it. Make your own adventure.
> 
> My groups always ended up invading the baron's castle (which was totally statted out for such misbehavior, incidentally) and trying to rob his treasure. If you can't have fun robbing the lord of the manor, you may be clinically dead.




I see now. Very open. Cool.


----------



## Capellan (Aug 28, 2005)

Four pages in and I haven't seen anyone mention the steaming pile of garbage that was _Dragon Mountain_?

The _Grim Harvest_ trilogy for the Ravenloft setting was awful, too.

We had fun with _Baltron's Beacon_ until we got to the stupid puzzle corridor at the end, which was an enormous exercise in irritation.


----------



## GuardianLurker (Aug 28, 2005)

rogueattorney said:
			
		

> If you're referring to the orange covered version that is now available for free download from the WotC OOP downloads page, that is precisely what happened, it was recalled and completely rewritten.
> 
> If you're referring to the green version that was mass produced back in the 80's, then I don't have the slightest idea of what you're talking about.  There's a lot of reasons why the green version of PotSP isn't my favorite module of the day, but poor editing isn't one of them.
> 
> R.A.




Yep. I have both. The green (rewritten) one is better - it's only mediocore (true back then too), but it still has problems. But I believe the original B3 is the *only* module ever recalled by TSR. DL1 is the worst I've heard so far, but as someone else pointed out, it was an experiment - and those fail. B3 wasn't an experiment - and failed even more spectacularly.


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## JFOLSEN (Aug 28, 2005)

*Worst in a Monty Haul fashion*

Special category, worst adventure in a Monty Haul style:

My nomination is N5, Under Illefarn.

For 4-6 characters of 0-3 levels (basically an intro level you can play till about 3rd level).
There are pregenerated characters in the back that are all first level.

So, would you consider putting a Helm of Brilliance with most of the gems still working in an intro mod? No? How about two of them? But wait, the second one is also a Helm of Telepathy, Stone of Controlling Earth Elementals, Ring of Protection +3 AND a Periapt of Proof against Poison in addition to being a Helm of Brilliance all rolled into one! Never buy another magic item ever!

And the "penalty" for not turning Super Helm over? It will cause a diplomatic incident between the Dwarves and Daggerford, IF you are discovered. Yeah, players lose a lot of sleep over that one.   


John Olsen


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## Orius (Aug 28, 2005)

Melan said:
			
		

> *Terrible Trouble at Tragidore*, the adventure that came with the 2nd edition DM screen. It was a railroady convention module with absolutely lame encounters (like bandits pretending to be vampires by keeping sharpened wooden stakes in their mouth) and a background that made no sense.




Never ran Tragidor, as it never really seemed all that interesting an adventure to me.  However I _did_ yoink the "vampire" bandits for an encounter in my campaign.  The party cleric decided to surrender, and they ended up losing a couple of magic items they collected when the bandits did the "tax collecting".


----------



## Orius (Aug 28, 2005)

thompgc said:
			
		

> Crazy death traps of all sorts
> invisible trolls with metal staves that had glass globes that contained black puddings - whack an adventurer and enjoy




I like this idea.


----------



## Arnwyn (Aug 28, 2005)

mearls said:
			
		

> Castle Greyhawk
> Puppets
> Gargoyles
> Child's Play
> Terrible Trouble at Tragidor



These ones are all some of the worst.

Also:
- The Avatar Trilogy (as noted by many others)
- every Ravenloft (campaign setting) module ever printed. _Every single one_. All utterly terrible.

Do you know all the bad things you hear about 2e modules? You can thank the Ravenloft modules for that.


----------



## Turanil (Aug 28, 2005)

Emirikol said:
			
		

> So...of all the _______________OFFICIAL_______________________ D&D/AD&D/oD&D scenarios you've played or DM'ed, which one is the worst.



Throne of Bloodstone (AD&D level 100 adventure) was so awful...


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## Angel Tarragon (Aug 28, 2005)

Surprised that no one has mentioned Terrible Trouble At Tragador yet.


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## tetsujin28 (Aug 28, 2005)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> There IS no point to The Secret of Bone Hill. Modules in that day, like Keep on the Borderlands, featured places to loot and that's it. Make your own adventure.
> 
> My groups always ended up invading the baron's castle (which was totally statted out for such misbehavior, incidentally) and trying to rob his treasure. If you can't have fun robbing the lord of the manor, you may be clinically dead.



Totally. Those old modules gave PCs the room to create their _own_ stories, rather than being led down trolly tracks.


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## tetsujin28 (Aug 28, 2005)

arnwyn said:
			
		

> - every Ravenloft (campaign setting) module ever printed. _Every single one_. All utterly terrible.



Despite my love for RL, you are 100% correct. They stank to high heaven.


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## Angel Tarragon (Aug 28, 2005)

Well, if it weren't for House of Strahd, Ravenloft wouldn't exist.


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## robomage (Aug 28, 2005)

Tomb of Horrors - everything you do (even nothing) results in Death with no save

Return to the Tomb of Horrors - part of the module requires to to beat the Tomb of Horror and then walking into the sphere of anihilation to get to the next part of the adventure, just to end up on the Negative energy plane and faing the same demilich after he was made even more powerful then before.

Dungeonland and Beyond the Magic Mirror - Alice in Wonderland does not make a good adventure.

Castle Greyhawk - the "humor" and puns in this is so bad that it is nowhere near funny.


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## bastrak (Aug 28, 2005)

My vote goes to the Kill Greyhawk with very poor adventures period including Puppets, Gargoyle, Child's Play and most worthy of mention, Castle Greyhawk.

While Castle Greyhawk might be OK if you like parody adventures, the subject matter was inappropriate for parody IMO. The only D&D module I ever bought and then binned.


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## BWP (Aug 28, 2005)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> Surprised that no one has mentioned Terrible Trouble At Tragador yet.




Uh ... it's been mentioned perhaps more often than any single other module.  At least a dozen citations.  You have read the entire thread, right?


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## Pseudonym (Aug 28, 2005)

Four pages in and no one has mentioned X2 Castle Amber?  It's been 20 years and I still get twitchy thinking about it.

Barrier Peaks was fun, back in the days when there were Gamma World  and Boot Hill conversions in the DMG.  Besides, how often does one get to say "vegepygmy"?

I'll add another vote for Wispers of the Vampire's Blade.  One for being an annoying railroad, another for being the second module in a trilogy that aside from one NPC has no connection to the other two modules.

Castle Greyhawk I am sure annoyed many people, but I still laugh when I think of Indiana Gnome and the kobald Nazis.


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## Thanee (Aug 28, 2005)

Barendd Nobeard said:
			
		

> *Heart of Nightfang Spire* was pretty bad.




Yep, definitely the worst I have played. Necropolis (while not official) would be a close second.

Bye
Thanee


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## Thanee (Aug 28, 2005)

rogueattorney said:
			
		

> I actually thought the previous module in that series FRC1 Ruins of Adventure was worse.




Yeah, the module is written really, really bad and pretty much impossible to play as that.

But with some work it's actually quite some fun, I think. 

Bye
Thanee


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## StupidSmurf (Aug 28, 2005)

Pseudonym said:
			
		

> Four pages in and no one has mentioned X2 Castle Amber?  It's been 20 years and I still get twitchy thinking about it.
> 
> Barrier Peaks was fun, back in the days when there were Gamma World  and Boot Hill conversions in the DMG.  Besides, how often does one get to say "vegepygmy"?
> 
> ...




 Thanks! I enjoyed writing that part of the adventure!!!! Thing is, I've always had a weird sense of humor and the folks at TSR knew that at the time...so I guess that would explain why I was recruited for doing a level of Castle Greyhawk. But even among my feelings of "Hurrah! A paying gig and a chance to expand my resume!" there was the thoughts of "Er...why are we doing this?"

And oh, I remember Castle Amber!!!! I did like the whole banquet thing, where different foods had different effects. But aside from that...meh. Not much to recommend it.


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## Joël of the FoS (Aug 28, 2005)

Qualidar said:
			
		

> If I remeber correctly, you got teleported away when you tried to kill the god brain, making it impossible to even "win" the module. I thought most of the Ravenloft mods had a tenuous grasp of "Gothic Horror", but Thoughts of Darkness takes the cake, and wins my vote.
> 
> ~Qualidar~




It is fair to say that many Ravenloft adventures had to be worked with by the DM to smooth a few things. But some were interesting, don't put them all in the trash can 

Joël


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## Lonely Tylenol (Aug 28, 2005)

Dragon Mountain.

Now, the actual mountain itself was pretty good.  A billion kobolds with deadly traps, a few big monsters chained up here and there, and _nowhere to rest, ever_ made for a pretty decent survival dungeon.  But the adventures leading up to the damn mountain were so stupid and contrived...  After two sessions, my players decided they wanted to play something else, leaving me with the rest of the box set to dwell over.


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## Mark CMG (Aug 28, 2005)

Mark CMG said:
			
		

> I'm not sure how it actually got published in the first place, but anyone can guess what Gary had lost when he wrote the semi-LARPing, time-warping quest _The Hunt for my Car Keys_...





Um, heh heh . . . Ya see, the premise is that Gary lost his car keys but had a game planned for that afternoon.  So he planned a sort of LARP thing for his players, so that they'd unwittingly help him find the keys.  However, later, his notes on the game were found and accidently published...


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## xnosipjpqmhd (Aug 29, 2005)

A couple of the most disappointing adventures I've read, though not strictly within the "official D&D" parameters of the thread:

Desert Plots, part of the Amazon Mutual series, by Dragon Tree Press. Chock full of bad puns. Quite awful really. I remember reading this about 15 years ago and thinking, there's got to be *something* in here I can use. Got to the end of the book. Nada.

Nightmare Maze of Jigresh, for Empire of the Petal Throne, By Judges Guild. More poor adventure design, without even the occasional bad pun for variety's sake. Some of the Petal Throne stuff is kind of neat, but this is just really poor. In form, it's sort of a ToH-ish dungeon, but with fewer cool traps, more random combat, and a very irritating, hard-to-DM, and essentially pointless maze. Move along, nothing here worth seeing.

ironregime


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## Voadam (Aug 29, 2005)

VirgilCaine said:
			
		

> Any suggestions?
> Using the salvageable modules from the Grand Conjunction is something I would like to do (i.e. not the last two, and not Touch of Death).




Ship of Horrors

1 the detachable body parts never get used. Use them. I had one of them sitting in the basement with no head but a pen and paper and a different head sitting next to him. His head was with the BBEG next to the second head's body. Dictate to one head who writes down the message at the other end = creepy magical communication system. It also leaves notes for the PCs to discover when they go raiding and so they know the BBEG will be warned they are coming.

2 use the ghosts more to drive the plot and direct the party to evil family. Evil family killed them and gave bodies to BBEG.

3 BBEG animates lots of undead. Empower them as per standard ravenloft rules.

4 I gave the BBEG the possess undead undead spell from tome of magic (this was 2e) and he inhabited one of his super empowered commanded and controlled zombies to be a badass tough necromancer for the final fight. I also gave him a bunch of nonstandard cold spells from rolemaster and used their crit charts for some of the spell's effects (probably would not do this in 3e, but worked really well in 2e) He looked really frail to me for the fight otherwise despite his high level as a spellcaster.

5 find some mansion plans you can use for when the PCs go to the evil family manses.

6 consider cutting out the giant starfish attack(wish I had cut this scene, giant starfish are not really gothic horror). The diving for old bones parts are pretty cool though as they dive into darkness.

7 I had the BBEG secretly possess a party member in their climactic fight after the PC missed a save (everyone thought it was just a death curse that explained his new lack of weapon skills). The party fled when the temperature started to drop and they feared an avalanche cave in after burning the zombie body. The necromancer then went on the boat with the party, killed two crewmen to use their skins as components and animate their bodies empowering them as super undead ravenloft bodies and taking up residence in a zombie. He convinced the party he only wanted revenge against the captain who betrayed him and if they held a fair trial of the captain he would kill the captain and let them leave. The trial went wonderfully with great speaches and the party jumping the BBEG at an arranged signal, although some division among the party about who to support. The captain died amidst a magical cold huge area of effect spell along with many crew and horribly injuring many PCs and the BBEG zombie got away as the half broken ship sailed off in the mother of all storms.

So that's what I did with it.


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## Dr_Rictus (Aug 29, 2005)

Pants said:
			
		

> So... not being as well-versed in Greyhawk lore as I'd like... do rayguns and robots make any other appearances in the setting?




Off the top of my head, in addition to the crashed spaceship in the Barrier Peaks, there's a fair amount of thinly-veiled high technology associated with Lum the Mad and General Leuk-O.  In the less futuristic category, there's a character (Myrlund) who's basically an old West gunfighter.

Anybody think of any others?


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## Prince of Happiness (Aug 30, 2005)

Ugh, yeah _Dragon Mountain_ was 'orrible. I don't think anyone had the patience to get through the first book, less to say myself and I was the guy running it. Walk, walk walk FIGHT walk, walk, walk, FIGHT walk, walk, walk ad nauseum. "Hm! Interesting that you want this piece of this medallion that is utterly useless for me and you will pay me for it. NOW YOU HAVE LEFT ME WITH NO CHOICE BUT TO FIGHT YOU!"

_Child's Play_ was nauseating as well. I picked it up because it was (supposedly) for Greyhawk. Whoops. Was there even really a point to that thing?

_The Murky Deep_ didn't impress me very much either. It stunk like a weak retread of the UK series of modules.

_Curse of the Azure Bonds_ left me very unimpressed. It didn't help that the maps were just graph representations of the computer game's "dungeons." Does anybody need a map for one corridor that goes straight, left, straight, right, straight, right, straight, left...and that's it?

I didn't mind B1, namely because you could fit it into B2 so easily. I even hid the map in Castellan Keep for the PCs to find.


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## frankthedm (Aug 30, 2005)

Barendd Nobeard said:
			
		

> ....and ending with a vampire weaing special sunglasses so daylight won't affect him immediately.  On top of being a hasted 13th level sorcerer (in 3.0--two spells a round!), let's reduce the effectiveness of using sun light to stop a vampire.  Where's that "rolls eyes" smiley when you need it?




That Illo was the epitome of DungeonPunk


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## frankthedm (Aug 30, 2005)

Staffan said:
			
		

> The only module I've run that has a good tie-in to a novel is Freedom! for Dark Sun




The dark sun moduals blow. The First one kills off a major villian with Author super characters while the PCs watch. This single event, the death of Kalak, if changed, NEGATES every published peice of dark sun material that follows.


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## Voadam (Aug 30, 2005)

frankthedm said:
			
		

> The dark sun moduals blow. The First one kills off a major villian with Author super characters while the PCs watch. This single event, the death of Kalak, if changed, NEGATES every published peice of dark sun material that follows.




Not to mention the first novel series for the setting changes the setting drastically by killing Kalak and taking on the dragon, etc. What a way to invalidate major features of the setting immediately after the setting is released. But that is off topic as it is ripping on TSR novels and not modules.


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## DM_Matt (Aug 30, 2005)

Ambrus said:
			
		

> I know this borders on blasphemy, but I'd have to nominate the original *Tomb of Horrors*. The words "save or die" show up way to often in the text. Also, it's usually a complete toss up whether a particular action will safely unlock the next part of the adventure or simply kill you outright. We eventually resorted to just flipping coins to decide what to do; a strategy that seemed to work as well as careful deliberation.




Fellow heretic here.  The origional ToH is full of "do X within 5 seconds or die," "No matter what you do you have a flat and unavoidable percentage chance of dyinf," and utterly arbitrary rules made up as the module goes on.  The 5 second time limits make a lie of the quote in Thanee's sig from Gygax that its a "thinking mans module."


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## Algolei (Aug 30, 2005)

Dr_Rictus said:
			
		

> Off the top of my head, in addition to the crashed spaceship in the Barrier Peaks, there's a fair amount of thinly-veiled high technology associated with Lum the Mad and General Leuk-O.  In the less futuristic category, there's a character (Myrlund) who's basically an old West gunfighter.
> 
> Anybody think of any others?



My character scored a tank from Baba Yaga's Hut.


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## Mouseferatu (Aug 30, 2005)

DM_Matt said:
			
		

> Fellow heretic here.  The origional ToH is full of "do X within 5 seconds or die," "No matter what you do you have a flat and unavoidable percentage chance of dyinf," and utterly arbitrary rules made up as the module goes on.  The 5 second time limits make a lie of the quote in Thanee's sig from Gygax that its a "thinking mans module."




Much as I hate to do it, I too must stand up and be counted. I love the _idea_ behind ToH, but I honestly feel that the execution doesn't measure up to that promise.

Any DM can kill the PCs, if that's really what he wants to do. For a module like ToH to work, it cannot afford to be arbitrary, and it cannot afford to be _too_ obscure in its hints. It's only satisfying to wipe out the PCs of overconfident players if you could point back and show them where they honestly had a reasonable chance that they simply overlooked or were otherwise too foolish to take.

No offense mant to the Colonel, of course. ToH was a different time, and we can't all have the same preferences for our modules. Still, I'd spent so many years hearing about this one, I must admit I was disappointed when I finally got my hands on it. Though honestly, I don't think I'd nominate ToH for "worst ever"; just saying I'm not fond of it.

Interestingly enough, I _do_ like "Return to the ToH." It's not one of my favorites, and it's got its share of flaws, but I like the overall setup.


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## ProtoClone (Aug 30, 2005)

Arnwyn said:
			
		

> - every Ravenloft (campaign setting) module ever printed. _Every single one_. All utterly terrible.
> 
> Do you know all the bad things you hear about 2e modules? You can thank the Ravenloft modules for that.




Oh come on. Not every module was crap. I still run _When Black Roses Bloom_, and in fact, ran it as an _XCrawl_ tie in. _Night of the Walking Dead_ was just plain fun.


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## TheGM (Aug 30, 2005)

Pants said:
			
		

> *Expedition to Barrier Peaks* gets nominated for the bunch of stupid, sci-fi garbage in the module. I can accetp warforged, but robots? C'mon!




I'm really surprised so many people complained about RL and DL and it took this long for this one to come up. Complete and utter stupidity.

Follow it with another winner - Needle. Another one where they thought "let's introduce some Sci Fi into your fantasy world complete with idiotic aliens that are smart enough to fly across space, but too dumb to just cook the PCs when they show up with swords". Yeah, no thanks.


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## hafrogman (Aug 30, 2005)

There was a special Dragon Magazine that had an adventure in it. . . somebody's Gauntlet or something like that.  A gold dragon had set up a mini dungeon in order to recruit first level adventurers. . .

DM: Okay, you've found the enterance.
Player: Okay, we go on in.
DM: Make a spot check.
*roll roll roll*
Player: Made it.
DM: You see something flying at you out of the corner of your eye.
Player: I take a whack at it.
DM: Okay, hmm, it explodes into Dust of Choking.  Make an insanely high fort save for a first level character.
*roll roll roll*
Player: Damn, failed.  What happens.
DM: Lets see . . . 3d6 con damage.
*roll roll roll*
DM: Okay, 16 constitution damage.  What was you con score?
Player: Er. . . 14
DM: Oh.
DM: You're dead.  Sorry.
Player: I wonder what's on Cartoon Network

adventure ends.


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## Hussar (Aug 30, 2005)

Gorgoland's Gauntlet.  Yup, that one was pretty bad.  The anagram puzzles were just brutal.  And the coin dragon thing at the end was pretty much death on wheels.  Just a tad overkill on 1st level characters.


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## Sunderstone (Aug 30, 2005)

ProtoClone said:
			
		

> Oh come on. Not every module was crap. I still run _When Black Roses Bloom_, and in fact, ran it as an _XCrawl_ tie in. _Night of the Walking Dead_ was just plain fun.




I have to agree, not all were crap.
*Feast of Goblyns* - remains to this day one of our favorites. We even did this one three times, albeit with some newer players (but not all) each time.
*When Black Roses Bloom* - one of my few "player" experiences (usually Im the DM), I had fun with this one even though Im not a fan of Lord Soth or any DL in general. 
*Night of the Walking Dead* - Awesome the first time I ran it. A good starter module. Second time wasnt all that great.
*From the Shadows/Roots of Evil* - again one of the few player experiences. These two were great too, although at times the PCs to a back seat to NPCs. Given the scope and reprecussions of these modules, it was understandable.
*Touch of Death* - fun when I ran it. The players liked it alot. I dont think it's ever worth redoing.
*Ship of Horror* - not a bad read and it looked fine to me. I never did get a chance to run it.
*Adam's Wrath* - Very cool IMO. Lots of fun in this one too.
*House of Strahd* - one of the best reprints ever. It even had guidelines for running it at higher level. I will convert this one day when I have time.


The Bad?
*Touch of Darkness?* - forgot the exact name... the one with the Mindflayer crap for levels 12-15 IIRC. I was sorry I bought this book. This one will never see the inside of my backpack, let alone a gaming table.
*Book of Crypts*  - again,not sure of the exact name (it was long ago). The one with all the short filler adventures. Same as above.


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## VirgilCaine (Aug 30, 2005)

Voadam said:
			
		

> Ship of Horrors
> 
> So that's what I did with it.




Sounds like it could have been a good module out of the box, if the designers had finished it properly. Thanks.


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## Staffan (Aug 30, 2005)

frankthedm said:
			
		

> The dark sun moduals blow. The First one kills off a major villian with Author super characters while the PCs watch.



I think it handled it pretty well. I see Kalak's death as more of a background event than the focus of the module - it's the thing that sets off the chaos in the arena which is what the end of the module is about, but it's not the actual death that's important.

It would have been different if the party had been Rikus', Agis', Sadira's, etc. sidekicks, but that's not what the adventure is about. I don't see "trying to stay alive and possibly help people while the entire city is panicking in a small area because the king was attacked" as fundamentally different than "trying to stay alive during an earthquake".


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## Saladin4 (Aug 30, 2005)

Silver Moon said:
			
		

> I'll nominate TSR's first *Ravenloft* module.   It was actually a very well written module, but the whole adventure was centered around the players slowly discovering the villain's big secret - which was given away from the very beginning by prominantely featuring the secret as the art on the module's cover.   That Spoiler ruined what should have been an excellent story.



 Ravenloft was and still is one of the best modules ever written.  I've run it numerous times, and each time it's different and each time it's challenging.


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## Saladin4 (Aug 30, 2005)

A'koss said:
			
		

> I was just going through my box of useless modules and I think there are a few that should get nominated through sheer obscurity...
> 
> Mystery of the Snow Pearls?
> Bane of Llywelyn?
> ...



 Lost Island of Castanamir certainly is obscure, but it's still one of my favorite puzzle modules.  If you haven't seen it, check it out.  It's a nice well written little gem.


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## Saladin4 (Aug 30, 2005)

kenobi65 said:
			
		

> Ravenloft had, for me, a much bigger issue.  The party is essentially set up to die.  Killing Strahd is *so* difficult, and there are so many ways to die in the mod (esp. when the mod specifically says to not let in any cleric who might have a chance of turning the more powerful undead) that a TPK was a very likely result.



 Ravenloft:  It WAS a deadly module.  *Spoiler Warning* I had a group of players finally get to Strahd's coffin and kill him, but they were all 2nd level by that time, having been level drained all the way down.  Now... the players admitted it was a fantastic adventure, and that it was very challenging, and they felt great accomplishment in victory, but losing all those levels really hurt.  That's about the time I invented the handy 'Potion of Restoration', and I made it possible for them to regain levels fairly quickly, so it didn't leave such a bad taste in their mouth.  

NOTE: Most of these BAD modules could be fixed by a good DM, and who hasn't had a BAD DM ruin a well written module?????


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## Saladin4 (Aug 30, 2005)

spunky_mutters said:
			
		

> We had a lot of modules go badly, but Ravager of Time was the worst. The party gets turned into geriatrics in the early going, and must finish the adventure like that. Eventually they have to fight the lifebane duplicates of themselves who are better than the old versions (and the bbeg is there too). I don't see any way to avoid a tpk unless you softball the party a lot. My players rebelled, and I don't blame them.



 Ravager of Time, like many modules from the early days, had moments when it was imbalanced, but that's easy to fix for a good DM.  (I do it all the time, even with 3.0 and 3.5 modules, which are far more scientifically balanced).  But Ravager of Time... was a GREAT story.  A fantastic trip through the swamp, with mystery and turns to the story that kept it interesting till the end.  One of the better story modules.  If you like dungeon crawls, I suppose you wouldn't like this.


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## Saladin4 (Aug 30, 2005)

ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> Egg of the Phoenix. It apparently was a series of RPGA modules strung together, as I recall. I remember it as a poorly-written mess. It just didn't hang together well.
> 
> Needle - another poorly written, boring module.



 Needle - I believe this was playtested in Gen Con before it was actually published. I think Frank Mentzer wrote it.  We had a horrible DM (At Gen Con) and it sucked so bad, that I went up to Frank and told him so.  I will always regret that, because I could honestly tell his feelings were hurt.  Hence, in hindsite, I blame the DM.


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## Saladin4 (Aug 30, 2005)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> Very much so.  I used to have them back when DL was fairly new, and even then after looking at them I thought it would be more fun for the group to just sit around and read the novels together. At least then you don't try to fool yourself into thinking your choices make a difference in how the plot plays out.



 You guys are all short sighted about the Dragon Lance Modules.  First of all, the modules were an attempt to tell an EPIC story from start to finish.  If your idea of a great 'epic' adventure is going through a dungeon randomly populated with monsters (that have no business being there no matter how you try to explain it.)  The DL modules called for some changes to the way normal adventures had been played (up to that point), but the PAYOFFS were IMMENSE.  A Good DM took away the feeling of being Railroaded, and instead gave you the feel of taking part of an EPIC adventure, becoming heroes in a true world saving story.  

A second point is that the first novel in the series, Dragons of Autumn Twilight, told the story of the first two modules.  This turned a lot of players and DMs off because players who read the book ruined the adventure.  They realized their mistake, and the further modules and novels told different stories.  

Third, most of the modules are VERY well done, with really innovative maps, NPCs, puzzles, monsters, and settings.  

If you felt railroaded through these adventures, your DM FAILED YOU.


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## Tzarevitch (Aug 30, 2005)

Glyfair said:
			
		

> Adventure, novel series, computer game, all  tied together.  Too tightly, in fact.
> 
> Poll of Radiance was the first, but it was just lackluster (the maps were _exactly_ the computer game type).




Lackluster? Are you kidding? Pool of Radiance was a pile of camel dung. They simply took the old SSI Gold Box computer game and made a module out of it. 

Tzarevitch


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## rogueattorney (Aug 30, 2005)

Dr_Rictus said:
			
		

> Off the top of my head, in addition to the crashed spaceship in the Barrier Peaks, there's a fair amount of thinly-veiled high technology associated with Lum the Mad and General Leuk-O.  In the less futuristic category, there's a character (Myrlund) who's basically an old West gunfighter.
> 
> Anybody think of any others?




That depends on the extent to which you think that Dave Arneson's Temple of the Frogs/City of the Gods Blackmoor = the Greyhawk Blackmoor.

Greyhawk adventures are littered with "easter eggs" including a light sabre in WG4 and a model of the Starship Warden from Metamorphosis Alpha in (I think) C1.  

Generally speaking, the pulp fantasy of the 70's and earlier was a lot more free in mixing genres than the conformist fantasy of the 80's (which was pretty much all patterned after Tolkien, who was something of a Luddite).  Thus in the earlier rpg settings you see sci-fi elements trickling in, in some cases (Greyhawk, Wilderlands), flooding in, in others (Blackmoor, Arduin), and still others where you'd be hard-pressed to catagorize the setting as fantasy or sci-fi (Tekumel).

R.A.


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## sniffles (Aug 30, 2005)

Templetroll said:
			
		

> It was not your DM.  The Times of Troubles modules were a horrible concept - the DM was to let the PCs fight non-entities while the characters from the books did the waycool important things they did in the books and the DM was to describe it so the PCs are awed at being in the presence of such wonderful folk/gods.   :\
> 
> My wife stopped running the first one and we never bought the others, we just played in FR _without _ the Times of Troubles.




Actually I should really give kudos to my GM for making those modules fun anyway, even though I'd like to kick whoever wrote them. He had us be transported back in time 50 years to experience the Time of Troubles, which gave us a lot of fun with roleplaying, especially when it turned out my character had been disguised and had her memory rearranged so she wouldn't know she'd already lived through the ToT once before.   

My (admittedly minimal) experience seems to be that authors of modules never take into account that players will not necessarily be playing archetypal characters, and that GMs may want to insert modules into existing campaigns rather than playing them separately.


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## radferth (Aug 30, 2005)

Worst module I ever ran:  N4 Treasure Hunt:  I remember premade 0-level characters with androgynous illustrations rolling boulders down onto a melee between pirate orcs and goblins.  And there was some weird funhouse-like mansion and a railroaded ending.

Worst module I ever bought: Whichever Vecna module had the hand-headed guy and was set in Greyhawk.  I couldn't even finish reading it.  It's just over-the-top and silly and too save-the-world-made-for-TV-movie-ish.  I hate that the 3rd ed core rules have Vecna as a deity.

Worst module I ever played that I am pretty sure wasn't just the DM's fault:  Some FR thing where we were attacked by wereboars, and then captured and stripped of most of our magic.  I played a gnome wizard, and I spend most of my 3rd level spells on suggestion to keep other party members from wandering off.  (Partly because the DM was a friend and I wanted to help, partly because I wanted to get to the final fight and be done.)  Oh, and some BGGs came in at the end and rescued us from the final fight with the BBG.


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## Infernal Teddy (Aug 30, 2005)

Tale of the Comet. And I don't want to talk about it. Except to my Braindoc. My group forced me to run it. ...


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## Thotas (Aug 31, 2005)

I'm gonna run back to the first page and stand with Teflon Billy.  I was a player in "Curse of the Azure Bonds", and it was unfun; and as many have pointed out in arguements about the "right" or "wrong" way to play, it comes down to the fun.  CotAB was not fun, and it wasn't my fault or the DM's fault.  It was the fault of the storyline that (SPOILER!!!!!) allowed the enemy a free hold person spell at the beginning of Every Single Major Confrontation ... that I failed, every time.  Essentially, every time it came to the stuff I was at the table for, I got removed from the game immediately, through no fault of my own.  At one point, suspecting (hoping?) that it was something she could only use against targets as opposed to area effect, I turned myself invisible going in, thinking that might exempt me.  So I failed the save, was rendered stiff while invisible on the battlefield, and ended up in the line of a lightning bolt cast by someone who didn't even know I was there.  Halfrogman, at least you got one shot in before you died in the Gauntlet thing.   I died in a fight I wasn't even in, in an adventure I really didn't participate in. 

I Hate this Crummy Adventure.  And on the 3e change to hold person such that you get a new save every round ... I abstaine from having an opinion 'cause I can't be objective.


----------



## ColonelHardisson (Aug 31, 2005)

radferth said:
			
		

> Worst module I ever bought: Whichever Vecna module had the hand-headed guy and was set in Greyhawk.  I couldn't even finish reading it.  It's just over-the-top and silly and too save-the-world-made-for-TV-movie-ish.  I hate that the 3rd ed core rules have Vecna as a deity.




That was Vecna Lives! I actually like this module, and didn't find the hand and eye creatures to be any more silly than, say, the beholder or displacer beast. Anyway, the module was actually one that I wouldn't normally like - too much railroading, for one thing. Still, it had an atmosphere to it that I thought was appropriately creepy.


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## Hussar (Aug 31, 2005)

Well, I've stepped up on the Dragonlance modules before, so I'll do it again.  I tried to run them with four different groups over the years.  I've even played in them once.  The farthest we managed to get was DL 8 or 9 (I forget which now).  Like someone smart once said, the goal of an RPG is not to write an epic story.  Sorry, you want to write a book, go write a book and leave me out of it.


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## FreeTheSlaves (Aug 31, 2005)

I ran the full DL modules about 10 years ago & yup, parts of them were outrightly rejected by the players. Not so surprisingly the battle for the High Clerist Tower ran for about 5 straight sessions & was a load of fun because we deviated from the plot & turned it into an epic battlefront. 

Somehow I managed to put together some half-baked rules (this is 2nd edition folks, nothing made sense) Kobold & Ogre siege tower assaults, Dragon strikes with Draconian paratroops; & all the while the Rose Knight Sir Derek Crownguard was pushing the war council to sally forth... this was run by a player. The pc's even got themselves captured on a recon mission & The Dragon Lieutenant Bakharis maimed them.

Zipping above the evil capital of Sanction fighting the 'battle of Britain' on Dragons was pretty cool too.


----------



## TheGM (Aug 31, 2005)

Hussar said:
			
		

> Well, I've stepped up on the Dragonlance modules before, so I'll do it again.  I tried to run them with four different groups over the years.  I've even played in them once.  The farthest we managed to get was DL 8 or 9 (I forget which now).  Like someone smart once said, the goal of an RPG is not to write an epic story.  Sorry, you want to write a book, go write a book and leave me out of it.




While I agree with the assessment of DL, I disagree with the sentiment that RPGs can't do epic stories. You just have to have a GM that makes the epic story fit the characters and the world. I don't think they make good premade modules, I think the epic adventure happens in context.

Many of my games tend toward the epic, my players and I prefer that, and it works out well if there's not too much railroading and plenty of character reasons to be involved.


----------



## Psychic Warrior (Aug 31, 2005)

Saladin4 said:
			
		

> You guys are all short sighted about the Dragon Lance Modules.  First of all, the modules were an attempt to tell an EPIC story from start to finish.  If your idea of a great 'epic' adventure is going through a dungeon randomly populated with monsters (that have no business being there no matter how you try to explain it.)




I really don't think anyone's idea of an epic storyline is a random dungeon crawl.  You do not help your position with such absurd statements.



> The DL modules called for some changes to the way normal adventures had been played (up to that point), but the PAYOFFS were IMMENSE.  A Good DM took away the feeling of being Railroaded, and instead gave you the feel of taking part of an EPIC adventure, becoming heroes in a true world saving story.




I played in 6 of the DL modules and the only 'payoff' I can remember was killing the Black Dragon.  Most of the rest of it was just forgettable.  Probably not the worst modules ever made or anything but hardly the most entertaining.


> A second point is that the first novel in the series, Dragons of Autumn Twilight, told the story of the first two modules.  This turned a lot of players and DMs off because players who read the book ruined the adventure.  They realized their mistake, and the further modules and novels told different stories.




Yup - this is true.  I remember by about DL4 that the modules were finally deviating from the novels.  There was still the feeling that you were doing the little things to help the "main" characters go along their merry way but at least you didn't know exactly what to expect from the module because you had read some book.

[/quote]
Third, most of the modules are VERY well done, with really innovative maps, NPCs, puzzles, monsters, and settings.  

If you felt railroaded through these adventures, your DM FAILED YOU.[/QUOTE]

I disagree.  Aside from Draconians the new monsters were pretty weak in concept and design (even the Draconians were hardly original but at least there were losts of different types all based on what dragon eggs they used to make them).  I don't recal any innovation maps I know the first module had a "3-D" type map liek Ravenloft but not much else.  

People felt railroaded through these adventures because they were.  Typing in capitial letters about how the DM failed to rework the modules so they actually allowed you to deviate from its preset conclusion doesn't make these modules any less of a railroad.


For myslef my least favourite module is I10 Ravenloft II: House on Gryphon Hill.  Mainly because of the preset ending which the PCs are not allowed to change.  What's worse is that the ending it describes couldnot possibly result in the death of Strahd in anyway (he falls off a cliff).  It also had a high degree of technology but at least it was more Victorian era than futuristic.


----------



## Joël of the FoS (Aug 31, 2005)

Sunderstone said:
			
		

> I have to agree, not all were crap.
> *Feast of Goblyns* - remains to this day one of our favorites. We even did this one three times, albeit with some newer players (but not all) each time.
> *When Black Roses Bloom* - one of my few "player" experiences (usually Im the DM), I had fun with this one even though Im not a fan of Lord Soth or any DL in general.
> *Night of the Walking Dead* - Awesome the first time I ran it. A good starter module. Second time wasnt all that great.
> ...




In the great ones, you forgot *Evil Eye * ! This free form module, with a geat DM, as the potential to be onf the greatest adventure.

This leads me to agree with another poster: a bad module modified / improved by a great DM can be a lot of fun. For example: what Veodam did with Ship of Horrors. The first part of the module was indeed fun, but then it had to be improved a lot.

Another example: we are all 20 years gamers in our group and Die Vecna Die was alot of fun. By putting emphasis on the fun parts, and making the bad part past quickly or changing them, the module improved a lot 

In fact, now, modules that we do not change to add our own ideas are very uncommon 

Joël


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Aug 31, 2005)

Saladin4 said:
			
		

> You guys are all short sighted about the Dragon Lance Modules.  First of all, the modules were an attempt to tell an EPIC story from start to finish.  If your idea of a great 'epic' adventure is going through a dungeon randomly populated with monsters (that have no business being there no matter how you try to explain it.)  The DL modules called for some changes to the way normal adventures had been played (up to that point), but the PAYOFFS were IMMENSE.  A Good DM took away the feeling of being Railroaded, and instead gave you the feel of taking part of an EPIC adventure, becoming heroes in a true world saving story.
> 
> A second point is that the first novel in the series, Dragons of Autumn Twilight, told the story of the first two modules.  This turned a lot of players and DMs off because players who read the book ruined the adventure.  They realized their mistake, and the further modules and novels told different stories.
> 
> ...




The Role of the GM is to help the players tell thier own story, provide the canvas on which they will do the painting.  Not have them be actors in the GM's proto-novel IMO.  The writer of those modules failed the players is more like it.


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## VirgilCaine (Aug 31, 2005)

Psychic Warrior said:
			
		

> For myslef my least favourite module is I10 Ravenloft II: House on Gryphon Hill.  Mainly because of the preset ending which the PCs are not allowed to change.  What's worse is that the ending it describes couldnot possibly result in the death of Strahd in anyway (he falls off a cliff).  It also had a high degree of technology but at least it was more Victorian era than futuristic.




Reading the module ending...you have a point. But, perhaps that was the point--for the Creature (I love saying that!) to return to torment the heroes once more. Or you could just say that killing Strahd destroys the Creature...this is strongly suggested in the goals for the Creature.


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## francisca (Aug 31, 2005)

TheGM said:
			
		

> While I agree with the assessment of DL, I disagree with the sentiment that RPGs can't do epic stories. You just have to have a GM that makes the epic story fit the characters and the world. I don't think they make good premade modules, I think the epic adventure happens in context.
> 
> Many of my games tend toward the epic, my players and I prefer that, and it works out well if there's not too much railroading and plenty of character reasons to be involved.



I'm kinda with you on this.

I think the epic story comes after the fact.  I don't get the feeling that those involved in an epic story are "aware" of the epic-ness of the situation until after the fact.

But yeah, the DM keeping the players in the thick of the plot is all good, and if done right, does in fact lead to an epic recounting of the adventure's tales.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Aug 31, 2005)

francisca said:
			
		

> I'm kinda with you on this.
> 
> I think the epic story comes after the fact.  I don't get the feeling that those involved in an epic story are "aware" of the epic-ness of the situation until after the fact.
> 
> But yeah, the DM keeping the players in the thick of the plot is all good, and if done right, does in fact lead to an epic recounting of the adventure's tales.




This is a great post.  I think this hits the nail on the head for me.


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## Arnwyn (Aug 31, 2005)

Saladin4 said:
			
		

> A Good DM ...



Which, of course, is completely irrelevant as to whether a module is adequately designed or not.


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## Psychic Warrior (Aug 31, 2005)

Arnwyn said:
			
		

> Which, of course, is completely irrelevant as to whether a module is adequately designed or not.




BINGO!  We have a winner!


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## Sledge (Sep 1, 2005)

thompgc said:
			
		

> Labrynth of Madness was rather insane.
> Not just a killer dungeon, but infuriating search for tattoo granting items
> Crazy death traps of all sorts
> invisible trolls with metal staves that had glass globes that contained black puddings - whack an adventurer and enjoy
> ...




Well seeing as I got the errata the same day I got the module, I can't count that as a fault.  Lot's of modules are accidentally missing very important things.  I found that this adventure was a lot of fun, and no where near the awful kind of adventure it could have been.  Looking forward to revisiting it.

I can't say what the worst official game I've run is because I always fix them.  Kinda the DM's job.


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## KenM (Sep 1, 2005)

My vote is for a competion module ran at one of the very first Massconfusion convetions back in the 1980's. It was called Lady Ellien's Castle. The stairs on the maps would not line up right. Bob Jennings, the person that wrote it is your textbook example of a rat bastard DM. You look up Rat bastard DM in a dictonary, you see his picture. He told us once that "I Look at being a DM as I'm an enemy general out to take out the players."  His adventures are designed to be run thugh one way, if you don't do it excatly that way, you are dead. The second level of the place was over the courtyard.  During playtesting, me and other people were going to run it at the con, some asked "what if a player asked about the level being over the courtyard?"  Bob said to him "they won't notice that.". During the game, a player did ask that same DM that, and the DM just looked at him and said " The writer of the module said that you would not notice."


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## ZuulMoG (Sep 1, 2005)

For me it is a toss-up between Ravenloft and Dragonlance.  I'm not just going to leave it as that, because your outraged howls of protest smote my ears like thunderclaps before I even clicked 'submit reply'.

Ravenloft is a roach motel, PCs go in, nothing comes out.  Any setting that is a one-off PC setting is by default a loser and waste of time.  If you can't play your main PC there, why bother?

Dragonlance is a marvellous series of books, and I've loved every one I've read.  But as a setting for D&D it is an abject failure, much like Middle Earth would be.  All of the important things that happen in either series of books have all been done by the protagonists of the novels.  Each has plenty of heroes to go around, PCs need not apply.  As a rule, I've found that epic fantasy novels make piss-poor settings for fantasy RPGs for that very reason.  There's not much fun in running around slaying dragons when you know the Important Dragons are all going to be slain by someone else.  The only way I could ever RP in a Middle Earth setting is if the rules assume, and state to the players, that Gandalf, Aragorn, Bilbo, Frodo, Legolas, Gimli, Faramir, Eowyn, Theodred, et al never existed, and all of the heroics they were destined to do must now fall to the PCs to do, or ME will be covered in darkness.  Problem with that is, those were great stories because of the great characters.  Just any thirteen dwarves and a halfling rogue setting out to slay a dragon would not have made nearly as good a tale as Bilbo, Thorin, Gandalf and Co.  The same holds true of Dragonlance, what would the Inn of the Last Homely House be without Tika, who but Raistlin could challenge the Queen of Darkness, who but Tas could save them all?

Leave the books to the characters that their authors gave life.


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## Ralts Bloodthorne (Sep 1, 2005)

Two votes for me...

The Dragonlance Series (Thanks for forcing me to make the same retarded decisions, or play second fiddle to a bunch of losers) My favorite scene was when the GM looked at me and said: "Kitaira stabs you in the eye and you die, Sturm." WTF?

And....

The Time of Troubles series.

THOSE losers becoming Gods? The module was crappily fleshed out (the map for the castle, where Mystra was stuck in the prismatic sphere in the novel was rediculous) and played like lepers do gymnastics.


Two series of modules that would have been better off having been left blank sheets of paper and sold as "Build your own PC sheet" kits.


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## Plane Sailing (Sep 1, 2005)

Arcane Runes Press said:
			
		

> Ship of Horrors is a masterpiece compared to Thoughts of Darkness, a "gothic horror" module which features:
> 
> a realm that looks like something off the cover of Heavy Metal Magazine
> 
> ...




Thank you for reminding me of that monstrosity! Argghh!

You forgot that the final giant brain couldn't be harmed by any of the PCs but had to be stopped by NPCs who turned up in the nick of time with their special widgit.

I bought it (shrink wrapped) because I thought "a high level mindflayer-based adventure! In Ravenloft! How cool could that be?". Unfortunately it was utter garbage without any redeeming elements. Pah.


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## OnCider (Sep 1, 2005)

BWP said:
			
		

> Uh ... it's been mentioned perhaps more often than any single other module.  At least a dozen citations.  You have read the entire thread, right?




Uh ... Its the first time its been mentioned.  You're getting confused with the Time of Troubles adventures.

Terrible Trouble at Tragidore was the adventure you got free with with 2nd edition DM Screen.

Never ran it myself...


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## FreeTheSlaves (Sep 1, 2005)

Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> My favorite scene was when the GM looked at me and said: "Kitaira stabs you in the eye and you die, Sturm." WTF?



To be fair this is never part of the module, in fact the closest thing to this railroad is a small note in a list of ways to defeat the blue dragonarmy that gives something like a +2 morale modifier for a self sacrificing heroic leader.

Your dm either had issues with you or was beholden to the novels; neither had anything to do with the modules.

(And it was through the heart anyway, not the eye)


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## OptionalRule (Sep 1, 2005)

Ironically the shortest worst adventure of all time is "Pie and Orc".  An orc is trapped inside a giant pie and you have you eat your way to him to get him out.


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## VirgilCaine (Sep 1, 2005)

ZuulMoG said:
			
		

> Ravenloft is a roach motel, PCs go in, nothing comes out.  Any setting that is a one-off PC setting is by default a loser and waste of time.  If you can't play your main PC there, why bother?




I guess your party wasn't good and lucky enough. 
Ravenloft has a similar theme to Call of Cthulhu--if you're lucky, you get out, probably not whole and maybe not with everyone you came in with. It raises the bar for heroism precisely because it is so dangerous.


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## Voadam (Sep 1, 2005)

OnCider said:
			
		

> Uh ... Its the first time its been mentioned.  You're getting confused with the Time of Troubles adventures.
> 
> Terrible Trouble at Tragidore was the adventure you got free with with 2nd edition DM Screen.
> 
> Never ran it myself...




He said he was surprised nobody had mentioned Terrible Trouble at post 148.

Check out posts 11, 12, 19, 63, 105, 110, 144, and 146.

Tragidore has three or four different spellings in this thread, but they are all talking about the Terrible Trouble at Trag* from the 2e DM screen.


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## Ralts Bloodthorne (Sep 1, 2005)

FreeTheSlaves said:
			
		

> To be fair this is never part of the module, in fact the closest thing to this railroad is a small note in a list of ways to defeat the blue dragonarmy that gives something like a +2 morale modifier for a self sacrificing heroic leader.
> 
> Your dm either had issues with you or was beholden to the novels; neither had anything to do with the modules.
> 
> (And it was through the heart anyway, not the eye)



He was in absolute love with the books. We were told that the PC's were pregens and were the ones in the books.

The whole thing left such a sour taste in my mouth about Dragonlance, that I just gave up on it completely.

I might pick it up and read it from a GM's point of view instead of relying on the memories of getting aboard the Dragonlance Express.


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## FreeTheSlaves (Sep 1, 2005)

Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> I might pick it up and read it from a GM's point of view instead of relying on the memories of getting aboard the Dragonlance Express.



Ouch, that does not sound a cool adventure experience. I don't think a gm's pov is going to reconcile anything because there is never any arbitrary pc death at all through out all the modules. Arbitrary npc death & misfortune otoh, occurs all the time.


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## balam_br (Sep 1, 2005)

"Terrible Trouble At Tragidore"  was the first published adventure that i happen to have in my hands...

I runned this and it was so terrible that i gave up on published adventures considering them all to be crappy. Thinking that homebrewed adventures were the only way to go.

I got "scape from thunders rift" a lot of years ago and it was really better... but till this day i still think twice before reading pre made modules...


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## Cam Banks (Sep 1, 2005)

Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> I might pick it up and read it from a GM's point of view instead of relying on the memories of getting aboard the Dragonlance Express.




Yeah, that would probably be a good idea. At least then you could see for yourself if it's as bad as all that or if it's no worse than any other adventure with a plot.

The Dragonlance series is in some ways like Final Fantasy 7, in that the beginning is somewhat constrained by certain events or tasks, which open the world up a little at a time, until the point that you gain the freedom to take your own path through the story. While that's clearly not to everybody's tastes, at the time it was pretty groundbreaking - especially since the players end up being the ones who do everything, rather than sit back and watch an NPC do all the work.

Cheers,
Cam


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## FreeTheSlaves (Sep 2, 2005)

Well to be fair to DL, at the end of the green modules you get to choose to do the blue or red modules, with both tying back together near the end of red module. In both blue & red there are heaps of places that are particularly open ended.

Actually in the green module, it is really not that much of a railroad either. You have a huge map to wander but with encroaching draconian armies to be sure, but there is no need to rediscover the old gods. It does not take any effort on the dms part to simply allow the pcs to opt out of that adventure to flee south to the elven or dwarven kingdoms. So long as the pcs can handle not having clerics at all for the rest of the adventure. Ecen if the pcs attempt to sail away, the situation in the middle sea is covered within the blue modules, basically privateers run the show. 

So long as players made up characters compatible to the dragonlance theme, there should not even be much resistance to the railroad elements. If otoh, the players did not want to buy into the dragonlance theme then of course they were going to be miserable.


----------



## francisca (Sep 2, 2005)

nevermind.  too heavy handed.

nothing to see here.  move along.


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## BWP (Sep 2, 2005)

OnCider said:
			
		

> Uh ... Its the first time its been mentioned.  You're getting confused with the Time of Troubles adventures.




No, it wasn't, and no, I'm not.  The only people confused around here are those who apparently haven't been reading the thread very closely before stating what isn't mentioned in it.


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## Orius (Sep 2, 2005)

Streamweaver said:
			
		

> Ironically the shortest worst adventure of all time is "Pie and Orc".  An orc is trapped inside a giant pie and you have you eat your way to him to get him out.




Har har!


----------



## Hussar (Sep 2, 2005)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> The Role of the GM is to help the players tell thier own story, provide the canvas on which they will do the painting.  Not have them be actors in the GM's proto-novel IMO.  The writer of those modules failed the players is more like it.





^ quoted for truth.

Now, just to back away from my little DL hatefest.  The DL modules certainly had lots of potential.  You could certainly deviate from the plotlines.  Unfortunately, if you did deviate from them, you either, A) wound up dragon chow as waves of successively larger critters forced you back onto the railroad or B) wound up dragon chow because without you, the Dragon armies win and destroy everything.

How is this not railroading again?


----------



## ZuulMoG (Sep 2, 2005)

Glad to see I'm not the only one.


----------



## Mark Chance (Sep 2, 2005)

I don't remember their titles, but as they were RPGA, I'll assume they were official and they all officially reeked to the Seven Heavens. In one day at a convention, we were subjected to four Living City adventures in a row that were all scavenger hunts, including one in which the party had to run all over Waterdeep to collect esoteric stuff so that a wizard's wife's labor pains wouldn't wreak magical havoc. That day was my last day participating in any RPGA D&D events, and it marked the first and last time I've ever cussed when filling out post-adventure evaluations.


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## FreeTheSlaves (Sep 2, 2005)

Hussar said:
			
		

> ^ quoted for truth.
> 
> Now, just to back away from my little DL hatefest.  The DL modules certainly had lots of potential.  You could certainly deviate from the plotlines.  Unfortunately, if you did deviate from them, you either, A) wound up dragon chow as waves of successively larger critters forced you back onto the railroad or B) wound up dragon chow because without you, the Dragon armies win and destroy everything.
> 
> How is this not railroading again?



But what exactly is the problem with this? The continent of Ansalon is being progressively overrun by Dragon armies while the world of Krynn is being dominated by one evil deity. Are you suggesting that your characters should be able to ignore what is going on & be left in peace?

What you seem to be calling "railroading" is merely the logical consequences of fractious kingdoms being violated & engulfed piecemeal by a monolithic evil tide.


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## Cam Banks (Sep 2, 2005)

FreeTheSlaves said:
			
		

> What you seem to be calling "railroading" is merely the logical consequences of fractious kingdoms being violated & engulfed piecemeal by a monolithic evil tide.




I'm similarly confused by this complaint. It's akin to having the DM introduce the scenario with something like "the Queen has lost her only daughter to ruthless bandits. The bandits are holed up in the mountains, and rumor has it that there's a giant or two helping them!"

And then having the players say, "Screw that, let's go adventuring in the complete opposite direction."

A plot isn't a railroad. It isn't even a railroad if, as a consequence of the unfolding plot, the heroes are left with only a few choices. This kind of setup is common in adventures now - the only case where it probably isn't is the "old school" location-based adventure which has no more plot to it than "go into dungeon, fight monsters, come out richer".

Cheers,
Cam


----------



## lukelightning (Sep 2, 2005)

Off topic, but related to "established literature modules" (Curse of the Azure Bonds, Dragonlance, etc.)

When playing in this type of module, my brother and I both had the same irresistable urge to "ruin" the story, normally my murdering the literary heroes. We did this in some Dragonlance module... I vaguely recall fireballing Raistlin and the other DL heroes and taking all their stuff.  We both figured "if we're gonna do this quest for you, we better have your stuff."


----------



## Cam Banks (Sep 2, 2005)

lukelightning said:
			
		

> When playing in this type of module, my brother and I both had the same irresistable urge to "ruin" the story, normally my murdering the literary heroes. We did this in some Dragonlance module... I vaguely recall fireballing Raistlin and the other DL heroes and taking all their stuff.  We both figured "if we're gonna do this quest for you, we better have your stuff."




What were Raistlin and the others doing there if you had your own characters?

I mean, it's clearly tempting in many cases, but I'm starting to wonder about some of these experiences people are relating.

Cheers,
Cam


----------



## Steel_Wind (Sep 2, 2005)

Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> Two votes for me...
> 
> The Dragonlance Series (Thanks for forcing me to make the same retarded decisions, or play second fiddle to a bunch of losers) My favorite scene was when the GM looked at me and said: "Kitaira stabs you in the eye and you die, Sturm." WTF?




While I commented on this earlier on in this thread (to no avail it seems) - it's quotes like the above which lead me to my rather pointed (and _true_, damnit) comment originally:

This hatred of the _entire_ classic DL series "worst ever" is born of ignorance.  You want ot hate the railroading in DL1? Be my guest. But the whole series is not like that.

The fight between Kitiara and Sturm is not mandated to occur in the module _DL8: Dragons of War_.  

In fact, what happens in that module is a site based adventure in the largest castle map ever created by TSR.  It's a *very* cool map.

So, no - there is no fight between Kitaria and Sturm. There is no mandatory death for any character in DL8. Hell, the "obscure death" rule that was in effect earlier in the firt third of the module series is not present in DL8.

It happens to be a kick-ass adventure with an amazing map.  Worst ever? Not even close.

So why do you have this misconception? Here's why:

Twenty years ago - your DM was a dickhead, ok? He wasn't running the module - he was running a _book_.

The blame for that lies with your DM  - not the adventure module.


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## lukelightning (Sep 2, 2005)

I forget; perhaps we were supposed to play them, but to tell the truth we are even more horrible when we get to play an established character. In a Middle Earth RPG game I got to be Gandalf.... oh, those poor hobbits!



			
				Cam Banks said:
			
		

> What were Raistlin and the others doing there if you had your own characters?
> 
> I mean, it's clearly tempting in many cases, but I'm starting to wonder about some of these experiences people are relating.
> 
> ...


----------



## rogueattorney (Sep 2, 2005)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> Twenty years ago - your DM was a dickhead, ok?




For what it's worth, I think this, actually, expalins about 75% of the OOP D&D edition bashing that I've ever seen.

R.A.


----------



## Cam Banks (Sep 2, 2005)

rogueattorney said:
			
		

> For what it's worth, I think this, actually, expalins about 75% of the OOP D&D edition bashing that I've ever seen.




To be fair, it's sometimes a very good DM back in the day that explains why many people are fond of bad products. An excellent DM can make a really bad adventure quite a fun experience, and vice versa as you point out.

Cheers,
Cam


----------



## Hussar (Sep 3, 2005)

Cam Banks said:
			
		

> I'm similarly confused by this complaint. It's akin to having the DM introduce the scenario with something like "the Queen has lost her only daughter to ruthless bandits. The bandits are holed up in the mountains, and rumor has it that there's a giant or two helping them!"
> 
> And then having the players say, "Screw that, let's go adventuring in the complete opposite direction."
> 
> ...




See, but there's a problem with that comparison.  In DL, you have two choices - follow the plotline or die.  Now, it's been more than a few years since I last read the DL modules, so maybe my memory is a little fuzzy, but, as I recall, in DL 1, if you chose to ignore the plot and head out cross country, you faced successively larger waves of bad guys until you either got back to the plot or you died.

That's railroading.

At no point, again, as I recall, could the players turn around and say, "Screw it, I want to be on the winning team.  Hey!  Mr. Dragonlord, sign me up as your newest recruit.  As a gift, here's that gemstone guy you were looking for."

Again, any time the party tried to deviate from the plot, they faced successive waves of bad guys until they died.

If the party was more pragmatic than the adventure called for, they got slapped down.  Hrm, we got all these refugees that we just saved, but, now they're complaining and slowing us down.  Bugger that.  Let's head up on our horses and leave these losers behind.  Oops, not bringing the refugees sees you dead at the elven border.  Thanks for playing.

The modules were full of things like that.

Yes, the modules had some fantastic art, and some great cartography. They even had some really brilliant dungeoncrawls.  Xak Tsaroth was a whole barrel of fun.  But that doesn't change the fact that a party who decided not to follow the script - died.

Sorry, but, if your plot requires me to follow the script or die, that's railroading.  The fact that the package is pretty and the ideas are cool doesn't change that.  When you have the END of the story already worked out before the game is even played, that's not epic roleplay, that's railroading.  I'm all for epic story arcs where the actions of the players have real consequences.  However, when the actions of the players have only one consequence, don't complain when people start talking about railroading.


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## FreeTheSlaves (Sep 3, 2005)

Am I correct then in thinking that by this rationale all those adventure site adventures were railroads too?

I mean why would anyone in their right mind want to go into some hill giant fortress, Lolth's demonweb or some temple of elemental evil. If you don't do these adventures the dm will admit they have nothing else prepared, pack up, & turn on the telly. Surely this is a form of  railroad too?


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## Hussar (Sep 3, 2005)

But therein lies the difference.  If the players decide NOT to go into that hill giant's fortress, they don't die.  They just don't go into that hill giant's fortress.  

Again, if the plot of an adventure tells the players that they HAVE to do follow the story or THEY DIE, then it's railroading.

If the consequences of not following the script is that I don't get to go on that adventure, well, that's my problem.  If the consequences of not following the script is the automatic death of my character, well, how can you not think that's railroading?


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## Joël of the FoS (Sep 3, 2005)

ZuulMoG said:
			
		

> Ravenloft is a roach motel, PCs go in, nothing comes out.  Any setting that is a one-off PC setting is by default a loser and waste of time. If you can't play your main PC there, why bother?




Let me tell you I disagree with this bold statement. 

With a cheesy DM, Ravenloft can indeed be seen as a PC-killer setting. And that is dumb, indeed. 

However, the setting has evolved from a "weekend in hell" type setting for PCs from other D&D setting (and while that has a lot of potential to be fun, it could be dull also with a cheesy DM with no creativity) to a setting where you play a native born Ravenloft PC. 

So if you can't play something else then your "main PC", as you say, then indeed Ravenloft is not for you.

Joël


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## FreeTheSlaves (Sep 3, 2005)

Hussar said:
			
		

> If the players decide NOT to go into that hill giant's fortress, they don't die.  ...  or THEY DIE, then it's railroading. ...  is the automatic death of my character



Where is this automatic death coming from? I ran the adventure about 10 years ago & while there were plenty of deaths I never came across the automatic death you'r talking about.

The draconians that showed up did not auto-kill, they could be outrun on horses or hidden from just like any normal encounter. Admitedly the Fizban & Kender mockery had to be banned to remove excess comic-ness, likewise some opportune dragons did not need to automatically spot the pcs.

I think you just didn't like the 'campaign world' rather than the modules. The campaign world was all about heroic struggle against the forces of evil. Sure it's fine to not like this campaign theme but you should not have been surprised by the modules staying true to it.


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## Steel_Wind (Sep 3, 2005)

Hussar said:
			
		

> See, but there's a problem with that comparison.  In DL, you have two choices - follow the plotline or die.  Now, it's been more than a few years since I last read the DL modules, so maybe my memory is a little fuzzy, but, as I recall, in DL 1, if you chose to ignore the plot and head out cross country, you faced successively larger waves of bad guys until you either got back to the plot or you died.
> 
> That's railroading.
> 
> ...




With respect to DL1 - no argument. It is not only a railroad - it was an inepty done railroad.

DL2 - yes, but to a lesser extent.

After that point in a 12 module series, things ease up substantially and the railroad melts away until it's just plain gone.  The statement " any time the party tried to deviate from the plot" is just painly not true over the course of a massive series of adventures. It is true over the course of the first 2. 

The designers were struggling with the design of what was the first of its kind. I acknowledge some heavy-handed design horrors in DL1. But my point was not to dismiss the entire series for the sins of the first two modules.

As for the "what if the PCs join the bad guys" criticism: give it a rest. You won't see that plotline choice facilitated in any TSR or WotC product - then or now.

D&D is about being the players playing the heroes and defeating the bad guys. IF you want your game to be NOT about that - you won't find support for that option in a published adventure module by the game's creators.

That holds true whether it is Against the Slave Lords, Dragons of Despair, Temple of Elemental Evil or Sunless Citadel.


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## Hussar (Sep 3, 2005)

Actually, I really liked the campaign setting.  Liked it enough to buy all 16 modules, a hardback book and a rather large number of the books.

It still doesn't change the fact that its a railroad.

Take a look at DL 1.  What happens if the party decides to leg it out into the wilderness?  They run into repeated draconian patrols until, eventually, they die.  Sure, it's not an automatic death in that you die in the first wave.  But, eventually, after the umpteenth wave, you will die.  

I'm still not sure how you can argue that this isn't railroading.  If the party in any of the DL modules decides to break out of the mold, they die.  They die a death of a thousand cuts as random encounters every couple of hours nickle and dime them to death.

I'm sorry, but again, an epic STORY is automatically a railroad.  If the OUTCOME of the story is known before the dice are even rolled, it's a railroad.  No matter what the PC's did, they had to follow the story, OR THEY DIED.  

I'm sorry, but how is endless waves of draconians NOT an automatic death for the PC's?


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## FreeTheSlaves (Sep 3, 2005)

Hussar said:
			
		

> I'm sorry, but again, an epic STORY is automatically a railroad.  If the OUTCOME of the story is known before the dice are even rolled, it's a railroad.  No matter what the PC's did, they had to follow the story, OR THEY DIED.
> 
> I'm sorry, but how is endless waves of draconians NOT an automatic death for the PC's?



The outcome was never known, the end of the modules gave about 6 possible endings. 

Mine finished with Raistlin getting incinerated while some Rose knight smashed Berem's everstone with the hammer of Kharis on some anvil of judgement. They then fled the dark temple on some weak brass dragon they had saved earlier while a lich of the dark queen carried on blasting them.

While a literal interpretation might have an endless horde of draconians swarm the hills, I ran it more military like with main columns & a scorched earth on the periphery. You could beat a couple of groups, so long as you weren't traipsing into the main body, & reach the ruined lands beyond.

Then what? We're back to the opting out of the adventure & watching telly again. Or maybe the dm will be fine to make up some mad-max survival adventure which should be prepped in a couple of weeks. Of course you might want to opt out of that too.


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## Aus_Snow (Sep 3, 2005)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> D&D is about being the players playing the heroes and defeating the bad guys.



It's absolutely not limited to being that, not even according to _their own books_ (WotC's), let alone other books, let alone countless GMs' and players' interpretations and preferences.





			
				Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> IF you want your game to be NOT about that - you won't find support for that option in a published adventure module by the game's creators.



While that's probably true to this day (I don't have access to the entire list and relevant details of each, as it happens), in the future.. who knows. WotC has really put 'playing the monster' into roleplaying on a larger scale than anyone else has, that I'm aware of... and that's just one angle.


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## Hussar (Sep 3, 2005)

> While a literal interpretation might have an endless horde of draconians swarm the hills, I ran it more military like with main columns & a scorched earth on the periphery. You could beat a couple of groups, so long as you weren't traipsing into the main body, & reach the ruined lands beyond.




And that's a great idea.  However, that's NOT the idea in the module.  Like has been said before, a good DM can make all the difference.  However, how you or I actually run the adventure is irrelavent to whether or not the module(s) are good or not.  The module, as written, had endless hordes of draconians swarming the hills that will eventually grind the party to dust if they do not toe the line.

And that's the whole point in a nutshell.  The text as written did not allow the party to deviate from the scripted plot.  If they (intentionally or not) killed off particular NPC's, those NPC's would spring back to life.  Why? Because particular NPC's were integral to the PLOT.  Not integral to the party, or even important to the party necessarily, but, because the script required certain individuals to be in certain places at certain times, there was very little the players could do to change that story.

Granted, thinking about it now, I think we actually gave up around DL7. Whichever the one was with the ice boats.  My players just got so fed up with being led around by the nose that they just revolted.  And, to be fair, I can't blame them.

So, I believe we have reached what is colloquially known as an imp arse.  I'm not going to convince you that you are wrong and there's nothing you can say that's really going to change my mind on this.  We'll leave it up to different experiences and call it a day shall we?


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## Davelozzi (Sep 3, 2005)

JFOLSEN said:
			
		

> My nomination is N5, Under Illefarn...
> So, would you consider putting a Helm of Brilliance with most of the gems still working in an intro mod? No? How about two of them? But wait, the second one is also a Helm of Telepathy, Stone of Controlling Earth Elementals, Ring of Protection +3 AND a Periapt of Proof against Poison in addition to being a Helm of Brilliance all rolled into one! Never buy another magic item ever!




Well, I really like _Under Illefarn_, but for me it's a given that any published module needs to have most of it's magic items cut out by the DM before hand.


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## FreeTheSlaves (Sep 3, 2005)

Lets.

Although I'm not 'really' defending the indefensible, as mentioned there were railroad elements, but rather this idea where players don't play the module. E.g. the dm has the RttToEE & the pcs go anywhere but. Of course this leads us to players & dm actually talking to each other to find out what they want to play. Some comments in this thread seem to imply that this discussion never happened, which is strange when you think about it... :\


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## FreeTheSlaves (Sep 3, 2005)

Hussar said:
			
		

> Granted, thinking about it now, I think we actually gave up around DL7. Whichever the one was with the ice boats.  My players just got so fed up with being led around by the nose that they just revolted.  And, to be fair, I can't blame them.




Heh, I remember the Rose Knight (mk II, & yes that player had already killed Derek Crownguard & was working his way through the ranks {I eventually ruled his options down to sword & then crown knights}) character facing off against the white dragon that attacks when on those ships. He stood there taking blast after blast waiting for the dragon to land...


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## Remathilis (Sep 3, 2005)

I think the problem IS ALSO SCOPE.

If you don't go into the Hill Giant Steading, you don't get treasure*. 

If you don't find the Apocalypse Stone, the world goes bye-bye. 

The first is not the end of the world, its a plot. The second is an epic quest with the fate of millions resting on you. 

Sounds like some don't like the latter as a campaign option. thats fine, different goats for different folks. However, its pretty low to critize a module/campaign/DM as a railroad fest because it follows a close plotline with not alot of deviation. By that definition, Shackled City is a Railroad.

* = Actually, its worse. Re-read the intro flavor text; you are sent there by village elders ON PAIN OF DEATH to find out what going on. Nice guys eh?


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## Dalprin (Sep 3, 2005)

The worse official adventure I've ever DM or played?  Got to be Gargoyles. I bought it because I love Greyhawk and thought it would be a fun revival for my players.  It was sealed in plastic wrap so I could only judge the module by the cover art and a vague blurb on the back.  Looked like cool horror and featured one of my favorite creatures.  What it turned out to be was a nonsensical BAD module that turned me off of Greyhawk for years.  It is the only module I threw away before playing it.


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## Cam Banks (Sep 4, 2005)

Hussar said:
			
		

> So, I believe we have reached what is colloquially known as an imp arse.  I'm not going to convince you that you are wrong and there's nothing you can say that's really going to change my mind on this.  We'll leave it up to different experiences and call it a day shall we?




I think it's mainly an impasse because you A) haven't read the adventures recently, apparently and B) haven't really been reading what folks have said in response to your posts.

We agree on elements of the modules, especially the earlier ones, that dictate certain courses of action on the part of the players in order to achieve certain story goals.

That's all we agree on, I think, because at that point you assume the entire series is fixed, the heroes have no choices, the heroes will automatically die if they decide to act independently of the adventure, and the bad guys always come back and nothing ever works. This makes it impossible to discuss this with you. 

Cheers,
Cam


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## Hussar (Sep 4, 2005)

Well, the reason I think that the players have no choices is things like having your main NPC virtually indestructable.  No matter what you do to Berem, he's there at the end.  This is only one example.  It's not just the bad guys that come back.  It's bloody near everyone.  Drop Fizban off the mountain, poof, he's waiting for you at the bottom (convenient that the NPC's are indistructable, immortal or GODS.)

You accuse me of not reading the modules recently.  That I'll cop to no problem.  And, it's quite possible that maybe it's my memories that are cloudy.  But, then you accuse me of not listening.  Well, I did listen.  I just happen to not agree.  When all of the major NPC's CANNOT be killed before a specific time, that's a pretty bloody LARGE plot railroad.  That means that the story is more important than the decisions that the players make.

I'm not sure why this is difficult to understand.  I used the waves of draconians as an example, not as the ONLY example.  Modules which dictate the path you travel, who you travel with, who can and cannot be killed are, IMNSHO, railroads.  This is why I put the DL modules as some of the worst modules out there.  

Just on a side note, I can live with some railroading.  That's not a problem most of the time.  Telling the players that they have to go somewhere and do something is ok.  Telling the players that they have to go somewhere, do something, only go this particular way, with these particular people, and the results of their actions become meaningless unless they fit with the story, is not.


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## jsewell (Sep 4, 2005)

Glyfair said:
			
		

> Pool of Radiance was the first, but it was just lackluster (the maps were _exactly_ the computer game type).



-Hee Hee, I bought the AD&D version for just that reason, but you're right the adventure did suck (somehow I've wound up with the 3E version....).  
-I have to disagree about _Feast of Goblyns_.  Still my favorite adventure!  
-No one's nominated _Vecna Lives! _yet?  TPK of the Circle of Eight, then the PCs are supposed to figure out what went wrong?
-One more, though I hate to nominate it,  _The Lost Tomb of Kruk-Ma-Kali_ for Kingdoms of Kalamar.  Why?  Well, the party spends weeks (maybe months, if you're a nasty DM) to find out the general area for Tomb.  But, if they don't befriend the Red Dragon of the area, there is little chance they'll find the actual tomb (it's hidden within a rock wall with an entrance of about two-and-a-half feet).  Of course, this is assuming the party is still alive.  In the valley for the tomb lies these monsters:  the aforementioned Red Dragon (who has a nasty attitude); three tribes of Hobgoblins, one is led by an insane vampire; a death knight; a tribe of advanced trolls; several advanced mummies; stone golems; a ghost; a Nightstalker; and (drum roll, please) the Tarrasque (well, an aquatic version).  Recommended party size and level? Four to six PCs of 8th level.  This is all before the tomb itself, which is very nasty (in one room if you look up, you get whisked away to Hell).  So, somehow, the party survives, and finds the treasure... It's a powerful magic sword that just happens to be possessed by a Hobgoblin Psion (Kruk-Ma-Kali) who has a King Arthur complex (the Once and Future King....).  That said, it's worth owning for source material (all Kalamar adventures are about half background/area statistics - and they all have wretched "adventure hooks").
-I also second the _Heart of Nightfang Spire_, as well as the other adventure in that series whose name I cannot recall, the one with the bat-people.... Ugh!


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## Cam Banks (Sep 4, 2005)

Hussar said:
			
		

> You accuse me of not reading the modules recently.  That I'll cop to no problem.  And, it's quite possible that maybe it's my memories that are cloudy.  But, then you accuse me of not listening.  Well, I did listen.  I just happen to not agree.  When all of the major NPC's CANNOT be killed before a specific time, that's a pretty bloody LARGE plot railroad.  That means that the story is more important than the decisions that the players make.




Verminaard appears in DL2. The heroes are tasked with undoing/preventing/interrupting his plans, and this is a challenge they're easily up to doing. In the books, this is even where he dies - he's killed at Pax Tharkas (although like many cinematic villains, you never see his body). In DL3, Verminaard doesn't have much to do with the PCs other than annoy them and keep Elistan busy, so he's of little consequence. In DL4, the heroes finally get to face off with him and his cronies and kill him off.

Compare this to the changeling NPC who keeps showing up in the Eberron modules. He's a fake vampire or something, but he's a recurring villain. He's Eberron's Verminaard, essentially. The heroes have other things to do - they're not ready to kill him off, so he's a recurring character until they do.

Berem and Fizban aren't bad guys or villains. Neither is actually essential to the series other than as potential climactic characters. In fact, it's possible Fizban isn't Paladine, just a crazy wizard. It's also possible Berem is just a red herring as well. They're recurring NPCs who lend some degree of continuity to the story but they're not exactly targets for the PC's wrath.

There are some other recurring villains - notably, the Dragon Highlords, but then apart from Kitiara they don't have terribly much to do with the PCs other than loom on the horizon. There are always other NPCs and villains to worry about, challenges to overcome, and evil plots to derail. The heroes get to take out bad guys fairly often - they get rid of Feal-Thas in DL6, various opponents and ogres and bad guys in DL7, a number of NPC lieutenants and generals and spooks in DL8, and in DL9 they get to infilitrate Sanction and take out all kinds of major NPCs such as Dracart and Wyrrlish.

In DL10, they get rid of Cyan Bloodbane (or at least stop his nightmare). In DL12, they foil a number of villains from Balifor all the way to sunken Istar. In DL13, there's admittedly not a lot of major NPCs to fight, but there are plenty of other things to do (and the ending of the adventure to determine). And in DL14, all bets are off.

Honestly, the mere fact that the adventures were designed around the idea of the heroes doing things other than just fighting the boss monster at the end of the dungeon (which they do in DL1 to kick things off) was pretty radical. Each module becomes episodic, has specific challenges, and multiple routes or means of achieving those (especially after DL4 is done with). Like Shackled City or other modern adventure series, there's a plot that governs a lot of the events and background, but it doesn't shoehorn the heroes any more than you'd expect it to.

Trust me, when these things get rewritten and revised, a lot will be changed in order to make things more customizable and adaptable to the needs of an individual group of players, but the structure will likely remain focused on the epic story with the player characters as the central actors. To change that would make no sense whatsoever.

Cheers,
Cam


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## Steel_Wind (Sep 4, 2005)

Hussar said:
			
		

> Well, the reason I think that the players have no choices is things like having your main NPC virtually indestructable.  No matter what you do to Berem, he's there at the end.  This is only one example.  It's not just the bad guys that come back.  It's bloody near everyone.  Drop Fizban off the mountain, poof, he's waiting for you at the bottom (convenient that the NPC's are indistructable, immortal or GODS.)




You do realize that the module series' ending is flexible...right?  That the modules themselves provide that Fizban need not be a God - may only be a crazy old man and that Berem has nothing to do with any of this and its up the PCs or Waylorn (or a few other options) to defeat the Queen?

Which pretty much ends this discussion I think. Your belief as to what the module design requires and "fates" is simply not accurate.  Your protestation above is based on facts which are not correct.  Those matters are specifically left to the DM to determine.

As Cam has said - it's been a while since you've read these modules. Most people's recollections of the novels are so strong - they tend to blur with their recollections of the modules themselves.


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## ZuulMoG (Sep 4, 2005)

VirgilCaine said:
			
		

> I guess your party wasn't good and lucky enough.
> Ravenloft has a similar theme to Call of Cthulhu--if you're lucky, you get out, probably not whole and maybe not with everyone you came in with. It raises the bar for heroism precisely because it is so dangerous.



What party?  I read the stuff in the Boxed Set back in 1980-something, and turned my nose up at it.  The possibility of PC death is neccessary, the certainty of it is lame.


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## Shadowslayer (Sep 5, 2005)

Sunderstone said:
			
		

> *Book of Crypts*  - again,not sure of the exact name (it was long ago). The one with all the short filler adventures. Same as above.




 Hah. I subjected my players to the one about the dude who invited all the PCs to dinner, only to have them find out that the room they're eating in is now floating in a black void. 

Only way out was to trick the Baron into revealing his weakness. (it was the mirror, or the harpsichord...I forget which)

It took a while, but my players forgave me.


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## Sunderstone (Sep 5, 2005)

Shadowslayer said:
			
		

> Hah. I subjected my players to the one about the dude who invited all the PCs to dinner, only to have them find out that the room they're eating in is now floating in a black void.
> 
> Only way out was to trick the Baron into revealing his weakness. (it was the mirror, or the harpsichord...I forget which)
> 
> It took a while, but my players forgave me.



lol. I really hated the book. Right down to the living wall.


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## JustKim (Sep 5, 2005)

> Compare this to the changeling NPC who keeps showing up in the Eberron modules. He's a fake vampire or something, but he's a recurring villain.



On that subject, what a crappy recurring villain he was..
If the players are really paying attention or the DM doesn't play Garrow very clever, they may put together that he's not really a vampire. However, there is no opportunity in the adventure to learn his name and no reason to suspect he's a changeling. In the next adventure he appears as Rarwog, but there is absolutely nothing to tie him to the faux vampire. He rams his expensive airship into another to get to Lucan, but then inexplicably does not follow through. Presumably, he just leaves and comes back for a final encounter in Grasp, which is meaningless because the PCs will never remember meeting him before. The entire thing is solely for the DM's benefit.

As for worst adventure, I was terribly disappointed with Whispers of the Vampire's Blade as a whole, not for its classic railroad but for the sheer number of plot holes, the _two weeks of random monsters every day_ on a peaceful stretch of road which lead up to 3 days of actual adventure, the frustration of Lucan's untouchability, and did I mention there are about 20 major plot holes?


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## Shadowslayer (Sep 5, 2005)

Sunderstone said:
			
		

> lol. I really hated the book. Right down to the living wall.




Funny, that one "adventure" I spoke of is the only one I actually remember.  I recall there was cool stuff in there too though.


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## pogre (Sep 5, 2005)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> Many of the DL campaign modules are open ended and feature some of the greatest maps ever done for D&D in any edition.
> 
> DL1 is a heavy handed railroad.  It lightens up progressivley until the railroad disappears half-way through the series.
> 
> They were feeling their way. To dismiss all 12 modules because of the first few, or worse, one DM you had 20 years ago, is naught but uninformed opinion.




Nah, DL1 is the worst - and you get one chance for a first impression...


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## Gwaihir (Sep 9, 2005)

The Murky Deep!


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## Arnwyn (Sep 9, 2005)

Gwaihir said:
			
		

> The Murky Deep!



Boy, did my players hate that one. It was all right until the big final fight, with 



Spoiler



all the sahuagin on the ship


. It was released at the time when there were no mass combat rules, so it became an over-long combat of drudgery. (Though this was probably a case of me, the DM, botching it up more than the module...)


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## Steve Miller (Sep 17, 2005)

Hussar said:
			
		

> Like someone smart once said, the goal of an RPG is not to write an epic story.




For someone smart, he sure sounds pretty stupid.

I wrote an epic story when I ran my three-year and five-year Known World campaigns--or co-wrote it, because the PCs are always the center and the PCs impact the direction of the story.

I wrote an epic story when I ran my one-year and two-year Dragonlance campaigns--or co-wrote it, because the PCs are always the center and the PCs impact the direction of the story. (And no-one was railroaded, because I've never bought into the notion that the module dictates the direction of the game.)

I wrote an epic story when I ran my two-year Ravenloft game that never left the boundaries of Sithicus--or co-wrote it, because the PCs are always the center and the PCs impact the direction of the story.

I am STILL wriing an epic story in my nine-years and counting Star Wars campaign----or co-wrote it, because the PCs are always the center and the PCs impact the direction of the story.

Maybe that smart person just doesn't know how to run a good campaign?

(As for bad modules, I think "Mordenkainen's Fantastic Adventure" and "Prince of Lankhmar" are the only two that I couldn't find anything to even scavenge in. And I use the occassional Greyhawk map/adventure in my Star Wars campaign....)


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