# Best Gestalt Combo for Wizard



## Metus (Apr 23, 2009)

Hey everybody.  I'm going to be a player in the Rise of the Runelords Pathfinder adventure.  However, it's just going to be me and another player.  We're getting to do gestalt in an effort to balance things out a bit.

I've decided I'm going to play a wizard; maybe not the best choice but I have my heart set on it.  What would be the best second class to take, in your opinion?  The supplementary base classes, like Dragon Shaman and Ninja and whatnot, are available as choices.

You might ask what the second player is going to pick.  He's still thinking about it as well, but he's leaning towards fighter/cleric, which would be nice.  Regardless of what he picks, I was just looking for synergy for my character's gestalt combo.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 23, 2009)

It really depends on what you like to play the most.

1) Wizard/Warrior combos give you nice HP and such, but you'll have to find a way to deal with the whole armor issue.

2) Wizard/Druid or Cleric is nice- lots of spells and that means lots of flexibility, and your weapon and armor are going to be nearly as good as #1 above.

3) Wizard/Rogue, Scout, Ninja, Spellthief, Lurk, Bard, etc.- armor is less of an issue, and you'll have some nifty class abilities to go along with your spells.

4) Wizard/Psion- 3 words: Blast! Blast! Blast!  This combo makes you into a human howitzer.

5) Wizard/Warlock- similar to the Psion combo, but a little more subtle.  However, you'll NEVER run out of zapping power.

6) Wizard/Monk- a classic mystic, mixing spells and martial arts prowess.  You'll be able to do _all_ the tricks you see in the martial arts movies.


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## Metus (Apr 23, 2009)

Aha!  The wizard/psion combo had slipped my mind!  That does seem a bit crazy over-powered.  I'll have to think on that one.

I liked the warlock idea, but I don't like the alignment restriction at all.

Also thought about monk as well, but I was worried about having to spread my stats to thin to make it work.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 23, 2009)

Metus said:


> ...I was worried about having to spread my stats to thin to make it work.




When gestalting- as with any form of multiclassing- you don't try to superoptimize so that he can use all of his class abilities to the max.  You find what distribution of stats will make the PC fun for you to run.

For example, with a Wiz/Monk, I'd max Int, Dex, and Wis...probably in that order.  The rest of the stuff is minor.  If you emphasize ranged touch attacks, your Dex will do multiple duty by improving your AC AND your attacks.  Going with the more common Str build monk would 1) Hurt your AC; 2) Wouldn't positively affect the efficacy of any of your possible spells; 3) May tempt you into melee combat...and you don't want to be there.


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## Eldritch_Lord (Apr 23, 2009)

You might want to go Wizard//Factotum (from Dungeonscape).  Looks like your buddy has the melee and divine slots covered, and the Factotum is almost 90% Int-based.  Skills monkey, Int to AC and attack _and_ damage _and_ saves, limited healing, extra actions...what's not to love?


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## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 23, 2009)

Which reminds me- the "Rogue-y" classes tend to have good Int synergies as well.


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## milo (Apr 23, 2009)

I would say rogue, the sneak attack on spells is a nice boost and int would help with skills.  It works well together.  If you want spells all day pick up the reserve feat acidic splatter and just keep one of your highest spell slots filled with an acid spell and you have a ranged touch attack that you can apply sneak attack damage to with relative ease through other spells like improved invis.


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## Thanee (Apr 23, 2009)

It's generally best to match two very different classes (i.e. either Wizard / Fighter or Wizard / Ranger or Wizard / Rogue or Wizard / Spellthief or somesuch).

Bye
Thanee

P.S. Anything with Psion in it is crazy overpowered, Gestalt or not.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Apr 23, 2009)

Try not to give yourself too much MAD.  I'd stick with other int-focused classes and just jack that up -- Factotem, Psion, Warblade, Duskblade.  I personally don't like duskblade, and for you, it'd be a lot of stuff you could get as wizard spells anyway.

Facototem gives you int to MANY things,and with inspiration points, you can do things like auto-beat SR.  there are spells for that too, though.  The best thing is the versatility the class offers, and you cna choose any skills to put ranks in, they're all class skills.

Psion is just crazy casting power.  One problem is that powers and spells are separate, which means even though you both use int, unliek a wizard/cleric, you'd need to take metamagic feats twice and such to affect both classes.  Mildly annoying.  I think this is a bad gestalt though, because you retain your crap HD and BAB, gain no extra good saves, and...no matter how much you can cast, you still only get your one turn per round.

Warblade is just nice.  Adds d12 HD, full BAB, good fort saves, slightly more skill points and skills (including useful ones, like tumble), and maneuvers.  both something touse to stretch out your spellusage at early levels and something to do when you have no spells useful for the situation.Also adds int to a fair number of things, including reflex saves (so you'd effectively have all good saves).

I'd say do Wizard/factotem if your friend does cleric/fighter, or wizard/warblade if he does cleric / rogue type.   In any case, try to cover the 4 main class types (warrior, skills guy, arcanist, divine caster) between you two, and it's better to not have only one person with all the casting.  Both for limits of actions and in case one of you is incapacitated.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 23, 2009)

There is also the question of exactly how nutty or stereotypical you want your build to be- there are some class/feat combos that could lead to some oddball fun in a gestalted PC.

For instance, the Heritage feats- Infernal, Celestial and Draconic- are open to sorcerers only (Draconic is open to _any_ class, if you use Dragon Magic), and let you convert _ANY_ arcane spells into attacks like breath weapons.  Gestalting 2 arcane spellcasting classes gets you a bunch of arcane spells, letting you burn some for your breath weapons while retaining situational flexibility.  You could effectively be something like a Focused Specialist (Enchanter)/Sorcerer and still have a LOT blasting power, even if you give up Evocation & Conjuration.

Similarly, a double caster gestalted PC would get a LOT of use out of the various Reserve Feats.


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## Drowbane (Apr 23, 2009)

My favorite Int-based gestalt is Psion | Warblade (warforged, of course).  I suppose a Warblade | Wizard wouldn't be too bad... Psi has the advantage of not getting screwed for wearing armor.

Psi | Wizard would be interesting.  Wizard mainly for utility spells, Psi for blasting and ablative shielding.  But as another mentioned, you're still stuck with a d4 HD and two bad saves.


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## Metus (Apr 23, 2009)

Thanks for all the suggestions, everyone.  I appreciate it.  I'll take a closer look at some of the classes and do some deciding.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 23, 2009)

Heh...I've wanted to play an Adamantine body warforged Marshal/Sorcerer for some time and only use spells without somatic components.  If I could swing it, I'd also take one of the "Heritage" feats or Spellfire or something, anything letting him channel spell energy into attacks.


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## Darklone (Apr 24, 2009)

Warblade/wizard.


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## irdeggman (Apr 24, 2009)

Metus said:


> Aha!  The wizard/psion combo had slipped my mind!  That does seem a bit crazy over-powered.  I'll have to think on that one.
> 
> I liked the warlock idea, but I don't like the alignment restriction at all.




Try a sorcerer/warlock instead of wizard.

Better synergy, less MAD - max on Charisma and Dex.

The fey heritage feat chain from Complete Mage is a must (at least through Fey Power (+1 to CL and saving throws for Enchantment spells and warlock invocations). The Fey Skin feat grants DR/Cold iron which stacks with essentially everything except DR from spells and items (e.g., it stacks with the warlock's class ability).

The alignment restriction for a warlock is not really that bad - chaotic _or_ evil.

It is generally pretty easy to play a chaotic good PC (in fact most of the players I have gamed with run that alignment whether or not they actually have chosen it).

Go with human for the bonus feat.

Sorcerer spells focused on enchantments (for synergy with the Fey Power feat) and warlock invocations for pure power.

Another interesting combination, well at least to me, is a warlock/soul knife. While it doesn't fit your wizard concept it is still pretty good in concept. They are never weaponless and do not depend tremendously on Strength. The mindblade enhancements make up for the Str damage - and if you focus on Dex with two weapon fighting you can attack with two short swords both having the enhancement applied (albeit with the straight up + reduced, the "special" qualities apply to both blades)


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## Elethiomel (Apr 24, 2009)

Another possibility is a Wizard | Swashbuckler. Int to damage, decent skill list, free Weapon Finesse, full BAB... it may even be worth picking up 3 levels of swashbuckler on the Warblade side if you decide to go Wizard | Warblade.


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## Drowbane (Apr 25, 2009)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Heh...I've wanted to play an Adamantine body warforged Marshal/Sorcerer for some time and only use spells without somatic components.  If I could swing it, I'd also take one of the "Heritage" feats or Spellfire or something, anything letting him channel spell energy into attacks.



very cool concept.  

warforged marshal 1 / crusader 5 | sorc 6

feats flaws (2): ??? ???
1 adamantine body, draconic heritage: (choose a true dragon), draconic breath (use a spellslot to power a cone or line BW-type attack)
3 thick-skinned (improves DR to 4/adamantine)
6 arcane strike (use a spellslot to give a +spell-level to hit and +spell-level d4 to dmg)

edit: added flaws, RAW 3.5 is feat-starved (my group uses feat per level, and we're still feat-starved)



irdeggman said:


> ...It is generally pretty easy to play a chaotic good PC (in fact most of the players I have gamed with run that alignment whether or not they actually have chosen it)...




Agreed!

IME, the majority of PCs seem to be either C/G or N/E in play... alignment on paper be damned.


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## Herobizkit (Apr 25, 2009)

I'm amazed that no one has mentioned Paladin/Wizard (and especially Paladin/Sorcerer).  While Paladins are that annyoing LG, they offer a wealth of bonuses.  Sure, you suffer a casting penalty for wearing armor, but you can minimize this with the right gear (Mithril Bucker, for example).  Or, you can just forego armor and cast _mage armor_ and/or _shield_ when you really need it.  (If you choose Sorcerer, you get more pops/day with a specialized spell list and couples nicely with Paladin's healing bonuses for high Cha.)

Bard/Wizard (and again, Bard/Sorc is prolly better) is your jack-of-all-trades, now with more casting power!  More spells is always better.  If you're module-busting, you want to have as many skills as possible; high Int will help your Bard maximize his skills list.

Druid/Wizard.  FTW.  When you run out of nuking powers, you still have nuking (and healing) powers to spare.  And instant Summon Nature's Ally spells means more bodies to absorb hits when the guano hits the fan.  Plus, shapeshifting!

Heck, go Bard/Druid and be thematically awesome AND effective.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 25, 2009)

Drowbane said:


> very cool concept.
> 
> warforged marshal 1 / crusader 5 | sorc 6
> 
> ...




Well, we don't use Bo9S, so those Crusader levels would disappear- they'd either be more Marshal or Sorc levels, or perhaps Fighter.

Ideally, though, I'd love to put some Wilder levels in there, and take Expanded Knowledge to add Expansion...but most of the DMs in our group don't like Psionics, so that's just a pipe dream.


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## Nifft (Apr 25, 2009)

Darklone said:


> Warblade/wizard.



 Yeah. This would be my first pick.

If you can't use Warblade, then I'd go for Wizard // Ranger.

In either case, it's easy enough to pick up a level or two of a PrC that reduces (or removes) your arcane spell failure chance for light enough armors.



Herobizkit said:


> I'm amazed that no one has mentioned Paladin/Wizard (and especially Paladin/Sorcerer).



 Perhaps that's because Paladin // Wizard would suck? Paladins need a lot of stats, and Int is very high on the dumpable list. Wizards need Int, period.

Sorcerer // Paladin is a very different beast, and quite viable.

Cheers, -- N


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## Herobizkit (Apr 26, 2009)

Nifft said:


> Perhaps that's because Paladin // Wizard would suck? Paladins need a lot of stats, and Int is very high on the dumpable list. Wizards need Int, period.
> 
> Sorcerer // Paladin is a very different beast, and quite viable.
> 
> Cheers, -- N



This Paladin would only need Int, Cha, and Dex.  Wisdom is nice, but for the limited spells as is, this Paladin wouldn't need a high one.  Stat boosting items would fix any deficiencies.

Mind you, I've spent the better half of my D&D 'career' playing low armor, high Dex warrior-types.


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## rgard (Apr 26, 2009)

irdeggman said:


> Try a sorcerer/warlock instead of wizard.
> 
> Better synergy, less MAD - max on Charisma and Dex.
> 
> ...




You can also go with the Battle Sorcerer/Warlock.  You get the one less spell per level per day, but you make up for that with casting in light armor with no ASF.


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## Jack Simth (Apr 26, 2009)

Let's see...

General Gestalt Advice (for building mechanically strong characters - do note that the "best" combo is the one you'll have the most fun with):

1) Avoid MAD, look for SAD - sure, the Wizard//Cleric looks good at a glance, but the double casting stat hurts badly - you need Intelligence, Wisdom, Constitution, and Dexterity.  The Ninja//Druid, on the other hand, does wonderfully - it needs Wisdom and Con only, although INT helps too.  Druid Wildshape removes the need for Strength and Dex, and both classes are Wisdom-based.  
2) Look for active//passive combinations. That is, have one side do the active stuff (combat spells, attacks, and such), while the other side handles stuff that doesn't take actions in battle (saves, HP, BAB, defensive class features, long-duration buff spells, Spot and Listen, and the like).  Again, the Wizard//Cleric may look good on paper, but both classes are full of abilities that take actions (spells).  The Druid//Ninja, on the other hand, gets all good saves, a d8 hit die, 3/4ths BAB, 6 skill points per level (with a very nice skill list), and the Pounce gained through a Druid's Wildshape means that there's a lot of attacks to add that non-action Sudden Strike to... if you remember to use the Ninja's Swift-Action invisibility.  Plus the Ninja-Dodge is Wisdom based.
3) Be aware of power curves.  One side needs to be a full caster for high-level play and for going "nova"; the other, something that can go all day long, and is still decent at low-levels.  The Wizard//Cleric, for instance, isn't all that grand - at low-levels, it still runs out of spells fairly quickly, and tends to be somewhat stuck for things to do once the spells are gone.  At high levels, it does quite well, though.  The Druid//Ninja, on the other hand, is a competent skillmonkey at low-levels, and a full caster for high-level play.  Regardless of what level or how long you've been since your last rest, the Druid//Ninja still has something useful to do.
4) Watch out for abilities that negate one another, look for things that synergise well - or be prepared to dump class features.  The Wizard//Cleric looks good on paper... but the Cleric's Armor and Shield proficiency interferes with the Wizard's Arcane Spells.  For the most part, the Wizard//Cleric has the choice of either wearing armor, or casting the better spells.  The Druid//Ninja, on the other hand, usually loses armor in wildshape anyway, and the Ninja bonuses continue to apply regardless of physical form.  
5) Pick one role, and consider things to be Primary//supporting.  The Paladin//sorcerer is the Holy Warrior in heavy armor who uses long-duration buffs and Verbal-only spells to improve melee smashing.  The Sorcerer//paladin is the all-powerful Arcane spellcaster that's tough as nails due to his faith.  It's the same set of class features, but they play very differently.  Unless you're doing Gestalt because you're short of players, pick a role in the party, have your primary side do that role well, and have your supporting class be one that strengthens that role - D&D is a game designed for four specialists - generalists tend to have difficulties.  Unless you're short players (in which case, you want a Druid//Wizard and a Druid//Ninja in the party - both pick up combat-focused animal companions to share the melee role, both have full Druid spellcasting to fill the healer's role, and you still have both an Arcanist and a Skillmonkey in the party), you will usually do better if you specialize.  
6) Avoid overlapping abilities.  Sure, the Fighter//Barbarian looks good on paper, but they both have the same BAB, the same one good save, and nearly the same hit die.  The Fighter//Barbarian is only marginally more mechanically strong than is a standard Fighter or a standard Barbarian.  That's not what you want.  The Druid//Ninja, on the other hand, has almost no overlap of abilities (both have 3/4th's BAB).  4 skill points per level for the Druid, 6 for the Ninja.  d8 hit die for the Druid, d6 for the Ninja.  Good Fort and Will for the Druid, good Reflex for the Ninja, and so on.  

In your specific case?  You're stuck on filling the Wizard role - that's good, you're already a Full Caster, and you have your party role picked out; you've got plenty of offensive punch already.  What you are after is something defensive, that's INT based.  Factotum is a wonderful choice (Int to almost anything, and inspiration points for lots of useful things, such as extra actions to use with your spellcasting), as is the Warblade (full BAB, good Fort, big hit die; pick swift and immediate action manuevers - as many Counters as you can get, and defensive stances).  Something that can PrC into Duelist is also a good choice - Int to AC, plus a good Reflex save, is handy for a Wizard.  If you can convince your DM to let you use Kung-fu Genius from Dragon Compendium, a Monk is a really good choice as well (most of it's abilities are defensive, and Kung-fu Genius lets you key everything off of Intelligence instead of Wisdom).


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## Drowbane (Apr 26, 2009)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Well, we don't use Bo9S, so those Crusader levels would disappear- they'd either be more Marshal or Sorc levels, or perhaps Fighter.
> 
> Ideally, though, I'd love to put some Wilder levels in there, and take Expanded Knowledge to add Expansion...but most of the DMs in our group don't like Psionics, so that's just a pipe dream.




Wilder is one of my favorite classes (I think its very under rated).  Too bad about the lack of Bo9S.

I've been wanting to try a warforged crusader | wilder.  Adamantine Body DR + Share Pain, Vigor, and Psionic Repair + Crusader's delay dmg mechanic.  Talk about hard to damage...


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## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 27, 2009)

The lack of Bo9S is no great loss- I own it, but I'm on board with the rest of my group- nobody likes it.


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## Nifft (Apr 27, 2009)

Herobizkit said:


> This Paladin would only need Int, Cha, and Dex.  Wisdom is nice, but for the limited spells as is, this Paladin wouldn't need a high one.



 Since Charisma isn't your casting stat, it will be falling behind, or you'll be splitting your resources sub-optimally (catering to MAD).



Herobizkit said:


> Stat boosting items would fix any deficiencies.



 Everyone else has access to the exact same stat boosting items. You're still losing relative to someone of your level (and wealth) who hasn't split his resources.

Honestly, Wizard // Barbarian is better than Wizard // Paladin. At least the Barbarian's class features are useful -- everyone likes +10 ft. movement.

Cheers, -- N


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## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 27, 2009)

Herobizkit said:


> This Paladin would only need Int, Cha, and Dex.  Wisdom is nice, but for the limited spells as is, this Paladin wouldn't need a high one.  Stat boosting items would fix any deficiencies.
> 
> Mind you, I've spent the better half of my D&D 'career' playing low armor, high Dex warrior-types.




I'd probably take a swing at this in a similar fashion to the Warforged I mentioned upthread:

1) Emphasize the mental stats, Int, Wis and Cha, to power the mystical abilities of the PC, letting the physical stats drop into the no-bonus range.

2) Depend upon the armor- and possibly shield- for protection.  Choose either a largeish one-handed weapon for damage output, or forget the shield and go with a reach weapon (several of which also have decent damage output).

3) Choose spells without somatic components.

4) Feat selection can make a big difference in improving your arcane prowess.  Still spell will expand that list of spells unaffected by ASF.  Arcane Strike & certain Heritage feat chains (like Celestial, Infernal, or Draconic) translate arcane spell energy into damage-dealing supernatural abilities not subject to ASF.  Certain Reserve feats let you have reusable supernatural (or are they spell-like?) attacks that never run out (like a Warlock)...some of which are linked to accentuating the weapon's damage output, others give you ranged attacks.

Spellfire also helps in attack and healing...and by now, everyone knows about the Vow of Poverty.

5) PrCls matter too.  A gestalted Paladin/Wizard Kensai will have a nasty weapon in his hands, and that 1/day surge that grants an _unnamed_ +8 to Str is no slouch..._and _its reusable with a Will check- something this PC should be able to make relatively often.  And there are several other PrCls that add some kind of elemental/energy damage to a PC's weapons.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Apr 27, 2009)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Spellfire also helps in attack and healing...and by now, everyone knows about the Vow of Poverty.




Just to nit-pick: Wizard is actually by FAR the worst class to do VoP with.  Why?  *No spell book!*

Even if the DM allows you to own a spell book, you're certainly not paying for those expensive inks to add spells to it beyond the 2/level you get for free.  At that point, may as well be a sorcerer -- you'd have about the same spells known, and way more slots.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 27, 2009)

StreamOfTheSky said:


> Just to nit-pick: Wizard is actually by FAR the worst class to do VoP with.  Why?  *No spell book!*




Maybe under strict RAW, and then only maybe.

A blank spellbook costs only 15gp, well within the GP limits imposed by the VoP- in fact, its cheaper than a Hvy Crossbow, which is permitted by the Vow.  Any value in a spellbook comes from the spells the wizard inscribes within it.

Divine Foci have a similar issue.

My take?  A strict reading of VoP is at odds with the intent of the feat from an internal logic standpoint.  The Vow, at its core, is a pact expressing a powerful devotion to a powerful deity or otherworldly being that- strictly interpreted- restricts most adherents in such a way as to be contrary to the deity's best interests.

(I've participated in a number of VoP discussions- if you want to discuss this further, might I suggest forking this?)



> Even if the DM allows you to own a spell book, you're certainly not paying for those expensive inks to add spells to it beyond the 2/level you get for free.  At that point, may as well be a sorcerer -- you'd have about the same spells known, and way more slots.




Any inks acquired by honest labor and efforts of the wizardly ascetic would not be barred by the VoP in my campaigns.  He couldn't _buy_ them, though, and if given to him, they would have to be used quickly or donated to an appropriate charity.


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## irdeggman (Apr 27, 2009)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Maybe under strict RAW, and then only maybe.





Yup and since this is a rules forum, most people look at things from a strict rules reading.

A spellbook is not one of the items specified as allowed (there is a specific list), a divine focus is likewise not included.


So while there may be a way to intepret the system to fit the role-playing design, the RAW doesn't support it. I won't say I would disagree with your way of doing it, only that the RAW doesn't support it and when we talk about people who look for ways to power-game things to get the most powerful character they can then a strict interpretation of the RAW is sometimes called for.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 28, 2009)

irdeggman said:


> Yup and since this is a rules forum, most people look at things from a strict rules reading.




Lets take it for granted from now on that I will never be a RAW person since there hasn't been a ruleset without self-contradictory text.

After all, RAW, the PHB (and the SRD, for that matter) can't agree in 100% of its pages that fists are not natural weapons.

RAW is a starting point for analysis, not an excuse for ending rational examination of the game.

Besides, the Vow's text is not as precise as some say:


> To fulfill your vow, you must not own or use an material possessions, with the following exceptions: You may carry and use ordinary (neither magic nor masterwork) simple weapons, usually just a quarterstaff that serves as a walking stick. You may wear simple clothes (usually just a homespun robe, possibly also including a hat and sandals) with no magic properties. You may carry enough food to sustain you for one day in a simple (nonmagic) sack or bag. You may carry and use a spell component pouch. You may not use any magic item of an sort, though you can benefit from magic items used on you behalf - you can drink a potion of cure serious wounds a friend gives you, receive a spell cast from a wand, scroll, or staff, or ride on your companion's ebony fly. You may not, however, borrow a cloak of resistance or any other magic item from a companion fit even a single round, nor may you yourself cast a spell from scroll, wand, or staff.




After "You may carry and use a spell component pouch," its all about not using magic items.

Before that?  There is a clear exception for simple weapons, which includes knives.  Fine.  Does that mean he can't carry a spoon?  Historically speaking, many of the RW's ascetics carried a bowl (which sometimes doubled as a hat) and (usually) wooden spoon of some sort- they're quite useful.  Strictly interpreting the Vow, though, he can't.

What about a rock?  Its not a simple weapon- not according to the PHB, at least- and its not on the VoP list, but one would be hard pressed to say how carrying around a hunk of granite or limestone would be a violation.  What about a pebble?  In some ascetic traditions, keeping a stone (especially a sharp one) in your mouth for weeks, months or even years at a time was practiced to teach the lesson of listening before talking.

Can the ascetic use a piece of rope to cinch in his clothing?  How about to cinch his food bag or tie it to a pole (probably his quarterstaff) for carrying?  Its not on the list.

Can he carry a needle and thread to mend his homespun clothes?  If so, can he have a pouch in which to carry it (to keep it from getting into his food, if nothing else)?  Its not on the list.

Can the ascetic pick up a piece of plant- a twig, a piece of fruit or berry?  What if the ascetic is a Druid, Ranger or Cleric of a nature deity, and those plant bits are components or holy symbols?  Now the VoP is distinguishing between what is food or focus, _and that nature will change depending upon the type of ascetic and his intention at that moment._

Ditto the question of an ascetic carrying a creature.  When is it a component, companion, focus or food?  The answer?  That depends.

I could go on about how strict interpretation of the VoP raises more and more internal inconsistencies, but I won't in this thread.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 28, 2009)

At any rate, what about a Beguiler/Wizard (esp. a Focused Specialist)?  You get 2 classes with Int based casting, one of which can use armor and some slightly better weapons.  Any feat energy (see Arcane Strike and Heritage feats, above) or PrCl ability (see Spellswords) that lets you channel spell without ASF becomes incredibly useful since you have a whole bunch of spells at your disposal.

And of course, you still have the option to use Still Spell and those without somatic components.


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## roguerouge (Apr 28, 2009)

Well, then, what about beguiler/warmage? The warmage's damage is boosted by his intelligence bonus, although his casting stat is Charisma. He'll eventually get medium armor, allowing mithral full plate casting. And he'll be able to blast and do illusion/enchantment all day long with better than a wizard's flexibility at no cost. He'll have great skills to boot, which his 2-PC party will need.

The downside is the poor BAB and the poor saves (Will's your only good one).


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## blargney the second (Apr 30, 2009)

I've always wanted to try using artificer as one side of a gestalt combo.  Long lasting buffs to help you do whatever you want, and craft any permanent items you need in your spare time.


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## irdeggman (Apr 30, 2009)

roguerouge said:


> Well, then, what about beguiler/warmage? The warmage's damage is boosted by his intelligence bonus, although his casting stat is Charisma. He'll eventually get medium armor, allowing mithral full plate casting. And he'll be able to blast and do illusion/enchantment all day long with better than a wizard's flexibility at no cost. He'll have great skills to boot, which his 2-PC party will need.
> 
> The downside is the poor BAB and the poor saves (Will's your only good one).





The Beguiler spells are limited to no ASF with light armor.

The warmage's medium armor benefit only applies to warmage spells not to all arcane spells.


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## Jack Simth (Apr 30, 2009)

irdeggman said:


> The Beguiler spells are limited to no ASF with light armor.
> 
> The warmage's medium armor benefit only applies to warmage spells not to all arcane spells.



There's a feat to boost that by one category... but with the Beguiler's stealth skills, you probably won't want to go with medium armor anyway, just due to the ACP.


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## Darklone (Apr 30, 2009)

Lurk/Wizard would do fine for a sneaky INT based char with lotsa options (and many swift action options while doing the wizzie spellcasting). Bad for hitpoints though.


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## Jack Simth (Apr 30, 2009)

Darklone said:


> Lurk/Wizard would do fine for a sneaky INT based char with lotsa options (and many swift action options while doing the wizzie spellcasting). Bad for hitpoints though.



Possibly play an Elan Lurk, and use that nifty Elan Resilience?


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## StreamOfTheSky (Apr 30, 2009)

Herobizkit said:


> This Paladin would only need Int, Cha, and Dex.  Wisdom is nice, but for the limited spells as is, this Paladin wouldn't need a high one.  Stat boosting items would fix any deficiencies.
> 
> Mind you, I've spent the better half of my D&D 'career' playing low armor, high Dex warrior-types.




You could also take the Serenity feat to remove cha from the equation entirely, makes all Pal abilities work off of wisdom.  I think.  Might make casting cha-based.  In either case, basicallly lops off a required stat for paladins.

I still don't agree with you, though.  Every character will want con, and while you don't need high str, you'll still probably want at least a 10 or 12.  Wiz//Pal isn't godawful, I'd rather have it than plain Wiz or plain Pal, but it's still not that good.  Sorc//Pal would be a much better combo, as wood Wiz//Fighter.


I still think the ones I suggested are the best combos.  Doesn't mean you need to pick from them if you like other classes.  I am impressed with the idea of a Kung Fu Genius Wizard//Monk, though.  That would actually be pretty good.  One nice little note: AFAIK, Monks are the only ones who get to count their unarmed strikes as natural weapons.  Why is this useful for a Wizard///Monk.  Level 1 swift action spell from Spell Compendium called Blood Wind.  It lets you (or other target) attack with natural weapons for one round from range.  Full flurry from the other side of the battlefield!   Blows the Ring the Golden Bell feat out of the water!


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## jedavis (May 1, 2009)

Note: this post is not related to the OP's question, but to the resulting discussion of gestalt combos that ensued.

How about Warmage/Warlock?  Crank charisma and dex, add moderate int and con, dump wis and str.  Wear light armor and never run out of firepower.  The saves aren't so hot, but you don't have to worry about any spell failure.

I've been considering trying a Warlock/Rogue build centered around Darkness and Devil's Sight for EB+Sneak attack every round, but I get the feeling the rest of the party would object to Darkness every combat.

Has anybody considered gestalting with Green Ronin's True Sorcery?


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## StreamOfTheSky (May 1, 2009)

hollowleg said:


> I've been considering trying a Warlock/Rogue build centered around Darkness and Devil's Sight for EB+Sneak attack every round, but I get the feeling the rest of the party would object to Darkness every combat.




Currently playing a (homebrew) Ninja // Cloistered Cleric / Shadowcraft Mage in my game.  I wanted to keep Deeper Darkness up 24/7 on my character, but the party balked. (And yes, walking around in daytime with it would be the opposite of sneaky, but it'd look so badass!)  He had a class feature to gain miss chance in darkness, blind-fight feat, lowlight and darkvision (no actual help in this case)....  But they just refused.  So...I cast it on a rock and keep it in his pocket most of the time.

Hmmm...anyone have an idea of how to finish a pick-up like that starts, "Is that a black hole in your pants, or...?"


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## kopliu (Feb 7, 2010)

Top 2 Gesalt Chars I've played were a cleric/wizard who took True Necromancer / Pale Master combo. wasn't that powerful stat wise but once I got General of Undeath (+10x your lvl to # of undead you can control) spell it worked pretty well with some wandering hulks (20 hd)

If you want all around power go for a Barbarian / Warlock with Vow of Poverty. the charismatic barbarian may seem a bit of an oxymoron but hideous blow (arcane blast is added to melee damage) + all of the warlocks passive abilities + the Vow removes the need to wear armor + the fact that later on you can kill dragons with the aforementioned wooden spoon makes it an awesome butkicker. if you skip the Vow get the feat to allow you to use Medium armor otherwise you will get hurt ALOT.

Great Thread 

EDITS: General of Undeath is a Ghostscape Spell


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## jedavis (Feb 7, 2010)

Eh...  Hideous Blow is not so great, unless they patched it since I last played a warlock.  Provoking an AoO to improve melee damage with a standard action (thereby preventing full attacking) is not optimal.  Rogue // Barbarian is better for improving melee damage through sneak attack, since you can use full attack with sneak attack, and it also has the rogue skills and Evasion.

Your necromancer reminds me of the last gestalt game I played, with a Ghoul/Evolved Undead/Exemplar // True Sorcerer.  TruSorcs run on Cha-based Spellcraft to cast their spells, so Exemplar let him take 10 on casting in combat, which was awesome and Ghoul and Evolved Undead boosted his Charisma through the roof.  TruSorcs also take subdual damage for casting; being undead negated this effect, allowing infinite spellcasting, since damage is the main balancing mechanism.  He got banned from a gestalt monster campaign after one use.  I then went with a significantly more balanced Incubus / Exemplar // TruSorc, who worked nicely.

Also of note in that campaign were an evil Pixie Fighter/Rogue with a spiked chain and far too many AoOs per round and an Earth Element Half-Ogre Crusader.  We had to take monster levels from Savage Species on one side and classes on the other; it allowed for interesting characters while also using SS's nerfed monsters.


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## Thanee (Feb 8, 2010)

kopliu said:


> True Necromancer / Pale Master combo




But you know you cannot take two Prestige Classes at the same time with the Gestalt rules, yes?

Oh, and True Necromancer is also a type of PrC, which you shouldn't use _at all_ with the Gestalt rules (as said there).

Bye
Thanee


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## Herobizkit (Feb 8, 2010)

hollowleg said:


> Rogue // Barbarian is better for improving melee damage through sneak attack, since you can use full attack with sneak attack, and it also has the rogue skills and Evasion.



True story.  I have a Gnoll Barbarian//Rogue NPC that has a disgusting damage output using a +2 Keen Falchion.  He favors scythes, though... woe to the beast upon which he rolls a 20.


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## Sunking (Feb 8, 2010)

Had a Monk//Rogue/assasin with a scythe ohh dat was the good times!!!

But take fighter //wizard then use the alternative class feture Armored mage from Com. Mage 
costs prof with medium and heavy armor
gains the ability to cast arcane spells without ASF in light armor
(max up to spell lvl = fighter lvl+1)

Now you have 2 ways to go 
1) the easy and most smelling of cheese: i underdark there are a +3 enchantment named halfweight wich makes any armor light...

2) after lvl 8 fighter (so you can cast up til lvl 9 spells without ASF) you find a PRC that grants you the armor profs you sold back, now take the Battle caster feat from Com. arcane (wich ops your ability to cast without ASF to medium armor) now build heavy armor with mithril (wich takes it down to medium armor )= Warmage 

Ohh yea almost forgot add the feat Arcane Strike from Com. Warrior and you are set for go

this is the gestalt kombo for straight gish and people who like warmage and or Eldrick knight and or spellsword and or (inset arcane caster meele type her)


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## Nifft (Feb 9, 2010)

hollowleg said:


> Eh...  Hideous Blow is not so great, unless they patched it since I last played a warlock.



 Nope, you're right. It sucks. Eldritch Glaive is decent, though.



hollowleg said:


> We had to take monster levels from Savage Species on one side and classes on the other; it allowed for interesting characters while also using SS's nerfed monsters.



 This is 100% broken.

First off, SS didn't nerf monsters. It allowed them to be played from level 1, by breaking down their HD and LA into discrete PC-sized levels you could work through.

Second, allowing LA on only *one side* is broken. Flat out, if it's allowed, there is nothing more optimal in the game than putting all of one side as LA: throw on those templates, pump your stats, get free powers, etc. Gestalt is fiddly enough when working as intended, using LA on one side only breaks it entirely.

Cheers, -- N


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## jedavis (Feb 20, 2010)

Nifft said:


> Nope, you're right. It sucks. Eldritch Glaive is decent, though.




Where is the Glaive from?



> This is 100% broken.
> 
> First off, SS didn't nerf monsters. It allowed them to be played from level 1, by breaking down their HD and LA into discrete PC-sized levels you could work through.
> 
> ...




Yeah, it was very broken.  But it was fun, and the concept of the game was to try it out, so it was within the social contract.  You're probably right about the templates (which have seen standard play in our group with some success), but we had found the monster classes to not be so great; too few HD and low base saves, so they weren't durable enough for characters of their level unless you're playing a monster type that is heavily defensive.  Just our impression, though.

We tried it at 8th level or so to see how it would work at mid-levels, and went up against gestalt dwarves in powered armor using modified D20 Future mecha rules, then cranked it up to 20th level and laid waste to three clones of the Elemental Prince of Cold and Evil (he was in Dragon a while back...  CR24 or so) plus a small hoard of his minions.


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## Ahnehnois (Feb 20, 2010)

> Where is the Glaive from?



Dragon Magic. The advantages are that you can get multiple attacks from high BAB and it acts as a reach weapon so you can get lots of AoOs.


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## Nifft (Feb 20, 2010)

Ahnehnois said:


> Dragon Magic. The advantages are that you can get multiple attacks from high BAB and it acts as a reach weapon so you can get lots of AoOs.



 Yep, exactly.



hollowleg said:


> Yeah, it was very broken.  But it was fun, and the concept of the game was to try it out, so it was within the social contract.  You're probably right about the templates (which have seen standard play in our group with some success), but we had found the monster classes to not be so great; too few HD and low base saves, so they weren't durable enough for characters of their level unless you're playing a monster type that is heavily defensive.  Just our impression, though.



 What you're describing is the general problem with LA: past one or two lost levels, you become more of a glass cannon than even a normal Wizard, because hit dice are so very important.

Thus, the benefits of high LA are huge to "balance" this discrepancy, but if you're allowed to put LA "on one side" of a Gestalt, then you get just the huge benefits and none of the painful-to-the-point-of-unplayable penalties. This is LA's fault for having no mass transit being poorly designed in the first place.

Cheers, -- N


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## Hrothgar Rannúlfr (Feb 20, 2010)

Metus said:


> I liked the warlock idea, but I don't like the alignment restriction at all.



I just checked my _Complete Arcane_ and it doesn't show any alignment restrictions that I can find.  Are you sure there's an alignment restriction?

*EDIT:*  I found it.  Any evil or chaotic.


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## Turtlejay (Feb 20, 2010)

Not at all helpful to the OP since this thread is so old, but my two cents:

3.5's action economy means that wizard/any caster is going to not be much better than a wizard.  Much of the power of these classes is tied up in their spells, and you can still only cast 1 a round, just like a single classed wizard.  It means you will be more versatile, sure. . .about as versatile as an Artificer, maybe?

For our Gestalt campaign I went Kobold Sorcerer/Dragon Shaman.  The Dragon Shaman is perfect for Gestalt since his power comes from auras that take no action to use.  He brings two good saves to the table and d10 hit die.  Oh, and 3/4 BAB.  You only really need focus on Cha, like a single classed Sorc.  I also went with Dex pretty high, and used the advantage of the higher than normal BAB to take ranged touch spells and make them awesome.  Kobold was for a couple of nice feats in Races of the Dragon, and Copper Dragon so I could walk on walls.

Basically a Sorcerer+.  I think a good Gestalt works by using one class to really pump up the other.  My good friend went Ranger/Artificer, and used the Artificer infusions to make his Ranger's arrows that much more effective.  A Ranger+.

If I were stuck with wizard. . .I'd probably use it to emphasize the second class.  Wizard/Barbarian for the full BAB and d12 HD, use the wizard half to buff the Barbarian half.  Rage means no spell casting, but the spells you have already cast remain.  You become kind of an Uber CODzilla, with more HD and rages.  When not raging use your full bab and high STR to cast melee touch spells.  There aren't a lot, but you can use metamagic to fill up slots that might not have a touch spell you like.

That's my (late) advice.

Jay


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## jedavis (Feb 21, 2010)

On the Glaive: very cool.  I'll have to remember that one.

On LA: yeah, that's pretty much the necessary conclusion of using the LA rules.

Turtlejay: I could actually see using Barbarian for Wizard+.  Use the d12 to make yourself less squishy, use the BaB to make your ranged touch attacks superbly effective, enjoy the fast movement and boosted Fort, and save Rage for when you get grappled.  The d12 in particular I could see as a springboard for some of the riskier books in the Encyclopedia Arcane series...  Blood Magic has bloodrites that you can keep casting as long as you have the hit points to pay, Dragon Magic has draconic words of power that do subdual damage when cast but are otherwise usable without limit, and Demonology...  let's just say that when the demons break loose, having extra hp handy is a Good Thing.
That's just how I might play it, though.

I might also go Rogue+; not a whole lot of MAD, don't lose out on much armor, and Improved Invisibility Sneak Attack Rays are always fun.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Feb 21, 2010)

Nifft said:


> Thus, the benefits of high LA are huge to "balance" this discrepancy, but if you're allowed to put LA "on one side" of a Gestalt, then you get just the huge benefits and none of the painful-to-the-point-of-unplayable penalties. This is LA's fault for having no mass transit being poorly designed in the first place.






hollowleg said:


> On LA: yeah, that's pretty much the necessary conclusion of using the LA rules.




I think it is important to point out that on the flip side, LA is more costly in gestalt if it's taking up an entire level each time.  That's because in gestalt each level is worth more -- higher BAB, HD, saves, skills, more class features, etc...  You're giving up more stuff than you would in a normal game.  Now, in my experience, most people just play human anyway.  Even in a non-gestalt game, most will consider the LA not worth it.  So I'd be hesitant to make LA races even _less_ appealing.  I also do think it's unbalanced to let it only take one side, though.

When i ran a gestalt game, I had LA affect your starting point buy for stats instead of detracting from your level, a cue I took from the E6 rules.  That seemed to work out.  Most people still made humans.  

If you don't typically allow LA buyoff from UA, running a gestalt game where LA costs both sides but can be bought off might work as a compromise, too.


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## Nifft (Feb 24, 2010)

StreamOfTheSky said:


> I think it is important to point out that on the flip side, LA is more costly in gestalt if it's taking up an entire level each time.  That's because in gestalt each level is worth more -- higher BAB, HD, saves, skills, more class features, etc...  You're giving up more stuff than you would in a normal game.  Now, in my experience, most people just play human anyway.  Even in a non-gestalt game, most will consider the LA not worth it.  So I'd be hesitant to make LA races even _less_ appealing.  I also do think it's unbalanced to let it only take one side, though.



 On the other hand, I'm pretty okay making LA races less appealing. The choice I see is either:
- Make sub-optimal choices even less powerful; or
- Break the game.

That's if you use LA as written. It is a blunt tool, which barely does its job even before we throw Gestalt into the mix. I'm sure one can re-write the game to fix LA, but I'm not sure it's worth saving... I find that humans are pretty cool dudes.

Finally, if a group wanted to play a game with wacky races, the DM ccould give a specific "free LA" to each character, to spend on racial LA (and nothing else). In that way, you get much of the intended benefit, without being grossly rewarded for exploiting a hole in the system.

Cheers, -- N


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