# Why do elves sleep now?



## EroGaki (Aug 22, 2009)

Out of all the rule changes Paizo made, the removal of Elven Reverie (or Trance, as the kids call it these days) seems rather... pointless.


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## an_idol_mind (Aug 22, 2009)

I imagine it was cut because space was at a premium and the trance rules have very little effect on the game (not to mention that they're easily added in as flavor).

My personal preference is for elves that sleep anyway, since I like tossing out late night ambushes and prophetic dream sequences.


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## Serphet (Aug 22, 2009)

This seems very setting specific... which makes me glad I have my "Elves of Golorian". In there it says elves (of Golorian) go into a trance... That's what I'd base my info off of.


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## James Jacobs (Aug 22, 2009)

Elves not sleeping is indeed relatively setting specific, and while trances are in Elves of Golarion, it's something we'll honestly probably be moving away from in Golarion. We've done a fair amount to reimagine our elves, and by having them sleep (or at least implying they sleep) does help to make Golarion's elves more Golarion and less Forgotten Realms (which is the actual only setting in which elves don't sleep, I believe... even though they seem to still be on a day-night cycle and often have beds in their homes...).

BUT! If you prefer the non-sleeping elves, that certainly still works in your game. Unless I'm wrong, there's nothing in the elf flavor text in the PRPG that says they DO sleep, is there?


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## frankthedm (Aug 22, 2009)

Evens out the base character races, making all their rest patterns congruent.

Less confusion involving the 4 hours needed for trancing and the 8 hours of rest needed for arcane spell preperaration.


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## Mark (Aug 22, 2009)

EroGaki said:


> Why do elves sleep now?





If you'd been awake for the last three editions, you'd be tired, too. 


Tolkien had elves sleep, sort of, and only sometimes, which is where that all gets its start.


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## Hunter In Darkness (Aug 23, 2009)

FR was the setting that elves traced , it just spread after that


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## Caedwyr (Aug 23, 2009)

If you check 3.5 you'll see that there is no mention of elves trancing instead of sleeping.  So this isn't really a change at all.


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## EroGaki (Aug 23, 2009)

Caedwyr said:


> If you check 3.5 you'll see that there is no mention of elves trancing instead of sleeping.  So this isn't really a change at all.




Actually, it does. Elven Reverie is mentioned in the physical description of the Elves in the race section of the book.


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## Caedwyr (Aug 23, 2009)

Ah, that'll teach me not to rely on just the SRD then.


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## Waylander the Slayer (Aug 23, 2009)

Those crazy elves and their caffeine pills.


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## Truth Seeker (Aug 24, 2009)

Hmmm, if that is the case, it would be soundly defeat the purpose of resisting magical sleep effect magik.

If the Elves have to 'sleep', then that long standing immunity will simply...'disappear'.

And I may be wrong here, but the talk of 'reverie' or 'trance'. was well detailed in the 2nd Ed. _The Complete Book of Elves,_ Chapter 3.

But I do understand the means to a 'specific setting effect' for the elves there...




James Jacobs said:


> Elves not sleeping is indeed relatively setting specific, and while trances are in Elves of Golarion, it's something we'll honestly probably be moving away from in Golarion. We've done a fair amount to reimagine our elves, and by having them sleep (or at least implying they sleep) does help to make Golarion's elves more Golarion and less Forgotten Realms (which is the actual only setting in which elves don't sleep, I believe... even though they seem to still be on a day-night cycle and often have beds in their homes...).
> 
> BUT! If you prefer the non-sleeping elves, that certainly still works in your game. Unless I'm wrong, there's nothing in the elf flavor text in the PRPG that says they DO sleep, is there?


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## Relique du Madde (Aug 24, 2009)

Elves don't sleep they hibernate.


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## CleverNickName (Aug 24, 2009)

I always had a hard time trying to figure out why elves _didn't_ sleep in the last three editions.  Ever since the Basic Rules, I have always interpreted the "immune to sleep spells" rule as exactly that: they still slept like everyone else, they just couldn't be put to sleep artificially.  Sort of like how a creatures that is immune to _charm_ effects can still be your friend...it just can't be magically tricked into it.

It might not be "by the book," but it works for us.


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## an_idol_mind (Aug 24, 2009)

To my knowledge, elves only started not sleeping as of the Complete Book of Elves in 2nd edition. Even then, ithe reverie was an 8-hour cycle that was essentially the equivalent of sleep, if I recall correctly - elves just recalled old memories rather than dreaming. 3rd edition is the first time I remember an elven trance actually being in the core rules.

Even if I'm wrong about the exact origin of the elven trance, I'm pretty sure than the sleep and charm resistance predates the reverie/trance stuff.


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## Felon (Aug 24, 2009)

EroGaki said:


> Actually, it does. Elven Reverie is mentioned in the physical description of the Elves in the race section of the book.



So it's not part of the SRD so it's not covered by the OGL, right? If that's the case, then there's the OP's answer.


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## delericho (Aug 24, 2009)

an_idol_mind said:


> To my knowledge, elves only started not sleeping as of the Complete Book of Elves in 2nd edition. Even then, ithe reverie was an 8-hour cycle that was essentially the equivalent of sleep, if I recall correctly - elves just recalled old memories rather than dreaming. 3rd edition is the first time I remember an elven trance actually being in the core rules.
> 
> Even if I'm wrong about the exact origin of the elven trance, I'm pretty sure than the sleep and charm resistance predates the reverie/trance stuff.




Sounds about right. Of course, "The Complete Book of Elves" wasn't exactly the most balanced 2nd Edition supplement...

Incidentally, Drizzt sleeps (or slept - it was probably retconned):



			
				Streams of Silver said:
			
		

> Even the valiant Drow, though, had overstepped the bounds of his stamina during the rush through the Evermoors, and soon he too nodded his head and joined his friends in slumber.


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## Ambrus (Aug 26, 2009)

an_idol_mind said:


> To my knowledge, elves only started not sleeping as of the Complete Book of Elves in 2nd edition. Even then, ithe reverie was an 8-hour cycle that was essentially the equivalent of sleep, if I recall correctly - elves just recalled old memories rather than dreaming. 3rd edition is the first time I remember an elven trance actually being in the core rules.



This was my understanding as well.







delericho said:


> Incidentally, Drizzt sleeps (or slept - it was probably retconned):



Now we've stumbled upon the truth of the matter. Pathfinder elves aren't actually sleeping; they're just trying to emulate the most popular elf in publishing history. Soon they'll be smearing boot polish onto their faces too. Bunch of lame wannabes.


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## Dantilla (Aug 29, 2009)

In something I read once (although I can't quite remember where, so it may not have been canon in the first place and render my whole post a moot point), I saw that although Elves trance, DROW actually do sleep, which would explain the mention of slumber in the description of Everyone's Favorite Drow.

Of course, a further interpretation could be that the author was being poetic, as opposed to literal:

"joined his friends in slumber" vs. "crept into a comfortable partially reclining position vaguely similar to that of his companions, closed his eyes and relaxed in a way that somewhat resembled sleep, but actually went over his many years of memories instead of actually dreaming, and in addition was partially but not fully aware of his surroundings."


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## delericho (Aug 30, 2009)

Dantilla said:


> In something I read once (although I can't quite remember where, so it may not have been canon in the first place and render my whole post a moot point), I saw that although Elves trance, DROW actually do sleep, which would explain the mention of slumber in the description of Everyone's Favorite Drow.




Possibly. Although this may also be an after-the-fact justification following someone pointing out the discrepancy. I'm also reasonably sure that later Drizzt novels talk about him entering reverie.



> Of course, a further interpretation could be that the author was being poetic, as opposed to literal:




I suspect it's more likely that "Streams of Silver" predates "The Complete Book of Elves" by some years. Salvatore can't really be faulted for not being aware of the contents of a book that hadn't been published yet.


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## an_idol_mind (Aug 30, 2009)

Reading through the rulebook, the spell description for Nightmare states that, "Creatures that don't sleep (such as elves, but not half-elves) or dream are immune to this spell."

While that will probably get errated out in a later printing, there is still the barest of hints that elves don't sleep, for those who need to have a rules precedent in order to include it in a game.


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## Banshee16 (Sep 3, 2009)

CleverNickName said:


> I always had a hard time trying to figure out why elves _didn't_ sleep in the last three editions.  Ever since the Basic Rules, I have always interpreted the "immune to sleep spells" rule as exactly that: they still slept like everyone else, they just couldn't be put to sleep artificially.  Sort of like how a creatures that is immune to _charm_ effects can still be your friend...it just can't be magically tricked into it.
> 
> It might not be "by the book," but it works for us.




I have no problem with elves not sleeping.  Even in the animal kingdom, different types of animals sleep for different lengths of time.....some, such as cats, sleep more, and others such as the giraffe sleep less than 2 hrs.  And some still function even while sleeping (ie. dolphin).  So there's all kind of variety. 

I always felt the lack of sleep thing kind of separated them from humans, and established their alien nature.

Banshee


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## Truth Seeker (Nov 1, 2009)

That was always a very inmportant distinction to me...



Banshee16 said:


> I have no problem with elves not sleeping. Even in the animal kingdom, different types of animals sleep for different lengths of time.....some, such as cats, sleep more, and others such as the giraffe sleep less than 2 hrs. And some still function even while sleeping (ie. dolphin). So there's all kind of variety.
> 
> I always felt the lack of sleep thing kind of separated them from humans, and established their alien nature.
> 
> Banshee


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## Set (Nov 1, 2009)

Truth Seeker said:


> Hmmm, if that is the case, it would be soundly defeat the purpose of resisting magical sleep effect magik.




Elves were immune to sleep spells in 1st edition, and slept normally.  It wasn't until the Complete Book of Elves (which was an abomination like few others) that the concept of trance entered the game, and only the Forgotten Realms setting embraced the concept.

I see no conflict with a race being immune to magical attempts to force them to sleep, and still being able to sleep by choice, just as 1st edition elves could be paralyzed, but were immune to ghoul paralysis.  A specific exemption doesn't lead to a general rule.


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## Truth Seeker (Nov 1, 2009)

Understood in both points, and thanks for bringing up the ghoul part, did forget about that.

But bare with me here. The morale of this, is thus...the constance perception of the message.

Seeing what is said (supposedly) about the 'sleeping' factor on Elves. Is one thing. But then seeing something else stated, (likely opposite to that first message), seems totally opposite in meaning.

Likely, that can lead to confusion.

We the older breed, know the differences, but to someone who is not old, and may be just barely new to the material. Will note the 'confliction' and asked the necessary questions to get clarity.

As seen thoughtout this thread, everyone has different take on it, me...I just advanced it to the next level. On a possible scenario that will lead to that 'change'.

I have noted that for a while now, even to the point, in the past splat books on the races, 3rd Ed or 3.5 ED, at one point, they reduce the birthrate to human time, 9 months, instead of 2 years (yeah, FR reference, or older edition).

But that is beside the point, the overall message that needs to said, that if you put such changes on a race's specific function (their natural abilities), but don't put the explaination on why.

Then have another section of texts, that implies that they still do 'retain' that not mentioned natural ability.

It will lead to small head scrathcing between DM and player. Which can lead to possible conflicting of views on what is suppose to be what...down the road.

In short, be concise, be constant, from the beginning, the middle, and end, to what is said about anything, especially when it comes to the overall view, on what can be done, by any said race.

We, this gerenation, are in the information age, so...it is as vitality important to make sure all factors are what they suppose to be, all connected supplements match the original message as well.

If not...this thread serves as an example, to what can occur.

Peace.



Set said:


> Elves were immune to sleep spells in 1st edition, and slept normally. It wasn't until the Complete Book of Elves (which was an abomination like few others) that the concept of trance entered the game, and only the Forgotten Realms setting embraced the concept.
> 
> I see no conflict with a race being immune to magical attempts to force them to sleep, and still being able to sleep by choice, just as 1st edition elves could be paralyzed, but were immune to ghoul paralysis. A specific exemption doesn't lead to a general rule.


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## Xendria (Nov 2, 2009)

I personally enjoyed the fact of elves not sleeping, but I altered it back in 3rd ed for my personal campaigns so that they trance for 8 hours and that the can still be affected by nightmares and prophetic dreams alike. I give them a bonus save to things like nightmare cause it is not exactly sleeping, but they still dream. My players came to this compromise because 3 of them are zookeepers and we had the whole "dolphin sleeps but still functions" conversation and decided that elves would indeed dream and have sleep like brain activity but wouldn't slumber as humans. 

Another reason is it does indeed make them different from the more mortal of the races. We also have fey do the same thing.


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## diaglo (Nov 2, 2009)

Set said:


> Elves were immune to sleep spells in 1st edition, and slept normally.  It wasn't until the Complete Book of Elves (which was an abomination like few others) that the concept of trance entered the game, and only the Forgotten Realms setting embraced the concept.
> 
> I see no conflict with a race being immune to magical attempts to force them to sleep, and still being able to sleep by choice, just as 1st edition elves could be paralyzed, but were immune to ghoul paralysis.  A specific exemption doesn't lead to a general rule.




it could also be traced back to their Chainmail (1971) origins. elves, of course, are faeries.

the magical sleep being one key for faeries in the mass combat. put your enemy to sleep but not yourselves.

as faeries became elves for OD&D(1974) and later editions it stuck or was kept.

perhaps the origin of which was not checked by the writers of the Complete book of elf crapola. 2ed

edit: elves do sleep. they eat. they poo. they do all normal bodily functions.


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## Dross (Nov 9, 2009)

diaglo said:


> edit: elves do sleep. they eat. they poo. they do all normal bodily functions.




20 years in diapers, according to Vaarsuvius of Order of the Stick fame (On the origin of the Pcs)


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## Banshee16 (Nov 9, 2009)

Truth Seeker said:


> Understood in both points, and thanks for bringing up the ghoul part, did forget about that.
> 
> But bare with me here. The morale of this, is thus...the constance perception of the message.
> 
> ...




Another discrepancy is lifespan.....though Paizo had the courage to change the height/weight statistics for elves, they didn't change the lifespan....it's still 350+4d100.  Yes, Elves of Golarion mentions that elves can live upwards of 12 centuries.  Now, unless you can get a "critical hit" when rolling that 4d100, something with that math just doesn't add up 

Banshee


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## Banshee16 (Nov 9, 2009)

Dross said:


> 20 years in diapers, according to Vaarsuvius of Order of the Stick fame (On the origin of the Pcs)




According to Races of the Wild, Otherlands, and several other sources, that's not quite right.  Elves age at about the same rate as humans until about 15 years old.  Then, their aging slows down, and they take about another 20 years to do the final equivalent of aging from 15-20 in a human.

Now......biological and social adulthood are two different things.  Even looking at our own society, you see many people not really leaving home and breaking out on their own as adults until they are 25+ because of the length of time spent in advanced schooling.  Historically, people were sometimes considered adults around 15.  Elves might biologically be considered adults by 35 or 40....but in their society, they're not considered adults until 100.

That makes a lot more sense.....sort of like how in dogs, their lifespan is measured as 1 year equals 7, until they hit adulthood, but once they've grown, it slows to about 1 year equaling 5.

Banshee


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## Doctor Futurity (Nov 11, 2009)

Well, given that throughout 3.0-3.5 I had to retcon back in sleeping elves to fit my own setting (converted over from 2E) I am fine with elves still sleeping. The idea of meditating elves seems really odd to me....in fact, one could readily imagine an immortal (or nearly so) race with a tether to the dreamlike weirding/fae realm to be more in tune with sleep and dreams than normal. At least, that's what I always imagined elves to be like in my games!


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## TarionzCousin (Nov 13, 2009)

Elves don't trance anymore because raves are passé.


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## mxyzplk (Nov 13, 2009)

Elves don't trance, they lay there dead after I murder and skin them like the wussy little tree-huggers they are.


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