# Dragon 334, Malhavoc's Surprise = Ptolus



## Erekose13 (Jul 5, 2005)

So any one got 334 yet?

Monte Cook has stated today that the big announcement for Malhavoc this summer will appear in this issue and that they have the exclusive.  

If you got it, spill!

Edit: Here is the relevant info from Monte's Journal.



			
				Monte Cook said:
			
		

> Folks interested in the "big project" that I've mentioned a few times here should keep their eyes out for Dragon issue #334 (the August issue, that comes out in a week or two). They've got the exclusive "scoop" on the news, and so the announcement is in there.


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## BiggusGeekus (Jul 5, 2005)

Erekose13 said:
			
		

> If you got it, spill!




Well, he talked about that annoucement at Origins and said ....


.... that we'd have to wait.  

That guy can keep a secret.  He can have my ATM number any time.


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## Erekose13 (Jul 5, 2005)

Yeah I figured he'd do something like that down there.  Looks like Exclusive means just that, doh!


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## reveal (Jul 5, 2005)

Erekose13 said:
			
		

> So any one got 334 yet?
> 
> Monte Cook has stated today that the big announcement for Malhavoc this summer will appear in this issue and that they have the exclusive.
> 
> ...




I checked and Dragon #334 was sent to subscribers today!


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## Erekose13 (Jul 5, 2005)

Edit: Any one got it yet?


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## Nightfall (Jul 5, 2005)

Considering I just BOUGHT Dragon #333...no.


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## bolen (Jul 5, 2005)

I thought that Iron Heroes was the suprise?


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## Erekose13 (Jul 5, 2005)

Nope he's got another one up his sleeve, one that he is writing (IH is MIke Mearl's pet).  Guess it wont get to subscribers for a little bit yet though.


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## Nightfall (Jul 5, 2005)

*is betting the secret is he's finally redesigning Planescape.*


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## Erekose13 (Jul 5, 2005)

With Beyond Countless Doorways out I dont think thats it.  That and he said that he doesnt want to go through the hassle of getting rights to someone else's IP.  

He has had another couple of big polls on his boards that give some clues.  One regarding a mega adventure and one regarding something to do with Ptolus.  He has denied that it is either of those though if I remember correctly.


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## DaveMage (Jul 5, 2005)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> *is betting the secret is he's finally redesigning Planescape.*




That would be great...

...as long as he had the budget to do it all proper-like.


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## Nightfall (Jul 5, 2005)

Erekose,

That was then. This is 3.5 

Besides while I thoroughly LOVED BCD, I just think if he did a complete guide to Planescape, people would be beating down WotC doors with a stick! Lots of thick bigs one too!

As for a mega Ptlous adventure...don't see it. Mostly because he's done Banewarrens and that, it appeared, was that.

Dave Mage,

Well he's got most of S&SS resources on tap, especially now that they've killed of Scarred Lands.  (Note though if they DO get to do Planescape, I'll semi-forgive them.)


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## Macbeth (Jul 5, 2005)

Huh. And here I was, thinking that Iron Heros was it. Well, I don't subscribe to Dragon, so I don't know, but I look forward to somebody enlightening me.


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## DaveMage (Jul 6, 2005)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> Well he's got most of S&SS resources on tap, especially now that they've killed of Scarred Lands.  (Note though if they DO get to do Planescape, I'll semi-forgive them.)




Yeah, but if Monte gets Planescape, I want full color and super-cool artwork!

If not Planescape, I hope it's an adventure of some kind.  He's pretty good at those.


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## A'koss (Jul 6, 2005)

Macbeth said:
			
		

> Huh. And here I was, thinking that Iron Heros was it. Well, I don't subscribe to Dragon, so I don't know, but I look forward to somebody enlightening me.



Iron Heroes is the biggee for this year, Monte's secret project acutally won't be out until *GenCon* *2006*. I highly doubt it will be a Ptolus campaign however and somewhat doubtful it'll be a Planescape revival, though god knows I'd snap that up in a second. We'll know soon enough I guess...

A'koss.


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## Shemeska (Jul 6, 2005)

A'koss said:
			
		

> somewhat doubtful it'll be a Planescape revival, though god knows I'd snap that up in a second. We'll know soon enough I guess...




In the event that he did, I'd refer to him as Monte H Christ or Jesus Cook from that point on. *chuckle* I doubt this will be the case, but damn it would be cool and I'd shell out the cash for it immediately.


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## A'koss (Jul 6, 2005)

Some annoyingly vague quotes from Monte about this...

"I've just finished my umpteen-gagillionth stat block for the product I'm working on and I don't know what makes me sadder: what a pain they are for a designer to create or what a pain they are for a DM to use."

_Q:_ "Will there be a big adventure book for Malhavoc?" (...) 
_A:_ "There's something big on the horizon. It's not quite that, but it does have a LOT of adventuring material in it, so the answer is... maybe kinda."

_On comparing his new secret project to AE:_ "In that sense, the new product is going to be even snazzier [in terms of colour/layout quality]. Lots snazzier, in fact. But the products' contents are kind of apples and oranges. "

Cheers!

_Addendum:_ Monte also made a comment (IIRC) that he figures this will be the single largest RPG product a single author has ever done.


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## Axegrrl (Jul 6, 2005)

A bestiary for AE and Iron Heroes, perhaps? Has there been anything that would contraindicate a book-o-monsters?


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## Troll Wizard (Jul 6, 2005)

A'koss said:
			
		

> Some annoyingly vague quotes from Monte about this...
> 
> "I've just finished my umpteen-gagillionth stat block for the product I'm working on and I don't know what makes me sadder: what a pain they are for a designer to create or what a pain they are for a DM to use."
> 
> ...




Hmm sounds like expansion material and/or 3.5 update to the epic level handbook or an epic level campaign setting.  The stat blocks and flavor text would have be almost page size for each NPC and monster.


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## A'koss (Jul 6, 2005)

Axegrrl said:
			
		

> A bestiary for AE and Iron Heroes, perhaps? Has there been anything that would contraindicate a book-o-monsters?



He said is was definitely not an AE product and there is already a (albeit, somewhat light) Iron Heroes MM we already know about. We know it'll have a lot of adventures in it but not be an adventure _per se_ so it must be something like a campaign setting. If he's going to promote it a full year before it's release you can bet it won't be something mundane.

A'koss.


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## Nightfall (Jul 6, 2005)

You and me both Mac.

Well at if it IS an epic level thing...so be it. I just keep hoping he'll change his mind, and do Planescape. Shemmy needs the loving.


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## A'koss (Jul 6, 2005)

I had a thought that it could be a big box set mini-adventures (perhaps themed) with miniatures and miniature-scale maps of everything, player handouts, etc, etc... However, since he's promoting it a full year before it's release it seems doubtful.

Epic Level Book & Adventures? The way 3e is geared it would be so hard to build on it in any real viable way. I can't imagine how you would do it without re-working the core levels of play to be more accomodating. 

Cheers!

A'koss.


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## Nightfall (Jul 6, 2005)

A'koss,

Well Monte might be trying to make an ALTERNATIVE Epic level system. But then again who knows?

*is still in denial and believes its Planescape*


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## Aeson (Jul 6, 2005)

BiggusGeekus said:
			
		

> That guy can keep a secret.  He can have my ATM number any time.




I can keep a secret. Can I have your ATM number? I promise not to take too much money just enough to live off of.


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## Nightfall (Jul 6, 2005)

Aeason,

No! Bad Aeason!!

Biggie,

Better off giving it to me.


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## JustKim (Jul 6, 2005)

It's not Planescape and thank goodness for that. Don't get me wrong, I love Planescape to death, and that's why I don't want Mr. Cook to rewrite it. The comment about it being the largest project a single author has ever done is testament to the man's ego, a behemoth I am disappointed to see my fellow Planescape fans feeding.


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## Lonely Tylenol (Jul 6, 2005)

JustKim said:
			
		

> It's not Planescape and thank goodness for that. Don't get me wrong, I love Planescape to death, and that's why I don't want Mr. Cook to rewrite it. The comment about it being the largest project a single author has ever done is testament to the man's ego...<trimmed unnecessary dig>




...or perhaps his work ethic.


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## Dav (Jul 6, 2005)

Yeah, most of the Malhavoc products lately have been other authors, like Mike Mearls or Wolfgang Baur.  Not sure what he's been working on, but I sure am looking forward to it.


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## Shemeska (Jul 6, 2005)

*In a very IC mood apparently*



			
				Nightfall said:
			
		

> You and me both Mac.
> 
> Well at if it IS an epic level thing...so be it. I just keep hoping he'll change his mind, and do Planescape. Shemmy needs the loving.




That's right, I do. I damn well deserve some loving. And you would to if you spent time apprenticed to the most incompetent Ultroloth ever.

*cough*

Yeah... that said, if it's a high level monster book, that would still make me interested, if not quite as much. Suffice to say, Monte has me curious. And just because we're feeding the rumor mill, we're doing his marketing for him.


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## Aeson (Jul 6, 2005)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> Aeason,
> 
> No! Bad Aeason!!
> 
> ...





Who you gonna trust me or a guy named nightfall?


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## A'koss (Jul 6, 2005)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> Well Monte might be trying to make an ALTERNATIVE Epic level system. But then again who knows?



Heh... I'm just trying to imagine the look on Upper Krust's face if it turned out to be "*Monte Cooke Presents: The Immortals Hand...er...Guidebook!*"  

Cheers!


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## Mighty Veil (Jul 6, 2005)

Maybe Monte got smart and decided to make Malhavok an imprint of Wizards instead of S&S?


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## Vocenoctum (Jul 6, 2005)

A'koss said:
			
		

> Iron Heroes is the biggee for this year, Monte's secret project acutally won't be out until *GenCon* *2006*. I highly doubt it will be a Ptolus campaign however and somewhat doubtful it'll be a Planescape revival, though god knows I'd snap that up in a second. We'll know soon enough I guess...
> 
> A'koss.



He's prehyping something due out over a year from now? Isn't that a bit silly? I mean, aside from his Fanboys&Girls, who will even remember?
Will the release have an ad for a Super Secret Project for 08 in it?


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## Erik Mona (Jul 6, 2005)

Muhahahahaha.

--Erik Mona
Editor-in-Chief
Dragon & Dungeon


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## mhacdebhandia (Jul 6, 2005)

Jerk.


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## Acid_crash (Jul 6, 2005)

LoL  

Cosidering that there aren't any plans (as far as I know) of new AE materials coming out it's probably another new PHB with it's own setting and twisted sense of rules/taste..err... style.  

That's my guess.


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Jul 6, 2005)

I think there are plans for more AE stuff, just longishy in term.  It gets mentioned a fair amount in interviews.


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## Banshee16 (Jul 6, 2005)

JustKim said:
			
		

> It's not Planescape and thank goodness for that. Don't get me wrong, I love Planescape to death, and that's why I don't want Mr. Cook to rewrite it. The comment about it being the largest project a single author has ever done is testament to the man's ego, a behemoth I am disappointed to see my fellow Planescape fans feeding.




I really liked a lot of the stuff Monte did for Planescape.  I can't say I'd be disappointed if he was bringing it back.

Banshee


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## Starman (Jul 6, 2005)

I'm pretty sure it's Synnibar d20.


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## johnsemlak (Jul 6, 2005)

BiggusGeekus said:
			
		

> That guy can keep a secret.  He can have my ATM number any time.




Give it to me and I'll be sure to pass it on to him   .


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## Wild Gazebo (Jul 6, 2005)

I'm guessing a good old fashioned Box Set (super box set).  Filled with wonderful gamery and adventurey type stuff that takes a lowly 1st level party to a mighty epic level party enabling them to challenge the gods.  An astounding 1st-42nd level extraveganza!  A world-shaping adventure...that sounds like something Monte would try.

Course, perhaps it's just the Complete Guide to Gnomes.


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## Simplicity (Jul 6, 2005)

I heard it was a prequel of some sort named:

"The Orc, the Shepherd, and the Pie Crust."


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## Driddle (Jul 6, 2005)

A'koss said:
			
		

> Some annoyingly vague quotes from Monte about this...
> 
> "I've just finished my umpteen-gagillionth stat block for the product I'm working on and I don't know what makes me sadder: ... the products' contents are kind of apples and oranges. "




This is not a positive selling point. I do not want to buy a product about fruit, especially if it does not make the designer happy himself.


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## DaveMage (Jul 6, 2005)

Dav said:
			
		

> Yeah, most of the Malhavoc products lately have been other authors, like Mike Mearls or Wolfgang Baur.  Not sure what he's been working on, but I sure am looking forward to it.




Wasn't he working on the "Year's Best d20" project?

Since I don't play AE, I'm hoping that whatever it is will work for standard D&D.   


As for stat blocks, Monte could always call fellow S&SS collegue Scott Greene to handle those.  Scott's pretty good at 'em.


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## Khairn (Jul 6, 2005)

Starman said:
			
		

> I'm pretty sure it's Synnibar d20.




<<shudder>>

BAD Starman!

Whatever it is, I know I'll be getting it.  Monte is one of the only game designers who I follow no matter what system he uses.  From Rolemaster (Darkspace   ) to AD&D (Planescape) to 3E to AU/AE and everything inbetween ... I have rarely been disappointed with his work.

Damn ... that was really fanboi-ish.


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## Rasyr (Jul 6, 2005)

Devyn said:
			
		

> Damn ... that was really fanboi-ish.



<<shudder>>

Yeah, it was......


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## Aazenius (Jul 6, 2005)

Wild Gazebo said:
			
		

> I'm guessing a good old fashioned Box Set (super box set).  Filled with wonderful gamery and adventurey type stuff that takes a lowly 1st level party to a mighty epic level party enabling them to challenge the gods.  An astounding 1st-42nd level extraveganza!  A world-shaping adventure...that sounds like something Monte would try.
> 
> Course, perhaps it's just the Complete Guide to Gnomes.




I would love to see something like this. He did place a poll up on his site, asking people what their thoughts were on a mega adventure taking characters from level 1 to 20 back in January.

Just curious why level 42?


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## reveal (Jul 6, 2005)

Aazenius said:
			
		

> I would love to see something like this. He did place a poll up on his site, asking people what their thoughts were on a mega adventure taking characters from level 1 to 20 back in January.
> 
> Just curious why level 42?




Because that's the answer to life, the universe, and everything.


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## Thornir Alekeg (Jul 6, 2005)

I have figured it out!

The rumors about Mattel buying Hasbro were off: it was in fact _ Monte _ buying D&D _ from _ Hasbro.  Monte has bought the rights to D&D from Hasbro and will be releasing 4e next year.


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## MaxKaladin (Jul 6, 2005)

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> I have figured it out!
> 
> The rumors about Mattel buying Hasbro were off: it was in fact _ Monte _ buying D&D _ from _ Hasbro.  Monte has bought the rights to D&D from Hasbro and will be releasing 4e next year.



No.  I think Monte has been hired to write 4e for Wizards.  See, they generally announce a  new edition a year ahead of time and someone said this product is supposed to be for GenCon 2006 and that would mean a GenCon 2005 announcement...  

Plus, we have that evil laugh from Eric Mona to back this theory up!  I mean, he wouldn't evil-laugh if something like this wasn't in the works, would he?


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## Razz (Jul 6, 2005)

The arrival of 4E equals the beginning of my departure from D&D. There's no need for a 4E thanks to Unearthed Arcana, for one thing.


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## wingsandsword (Jul 6, 2005)

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> I have figured it out!
> 
> The rumors about Mattel buying Hasbro were off: it was in fact _ Monte _ buying D&D _ from _ Hasbro.  Monte has bought the rights to D&D from Hasbro and will be releasing 4e next year.



Hmm.  The rumors have always said that WotC has been quietly asking ~$30 million for the rights to D&D for some time.  If Monte had a quiet and rich backer, or won the lottery, or was far more of a financial wizard than we gave him credit for, it would certainly be interesting.  

I don't see it as likely, but it would be better to have D&D back in the hands of a small, privately held company run exclusively by dedicated gamers, instead of ultimately at the hands of a big corporation, like how WotC was before they sold out (literally).


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## Greatwyrm (Jul 6, 2005)

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> I have figured it out!
> 
> The rumors about Mattel buying Hasbro were off: it was in fact _ Monte _ buying D&D _ from _ Hasbro.  Monte has bought the rights to D&D from Hasbro and will be releasing 4e next year.




Well, crap!  I wanted to have the first loony 4e prediciton.  Now I gotta look for another thread.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Jul 6, 2005)

wingsandsword said:
			
		

> Hmm.  The rumors have always said that WotC has been quietly asking ~$30 million for the rights to D&D for some time.  If Monte had a quiet and rich backer, or won the lottery, or was far more of a financial wizard than we gave him credit for, it would certainly be interesting.
> 
> I don't see it as likely, but it would be better to have D&D back in the hands of a small, privately held company run exclusively by dedicated gamers, instead of ultimately at the hands of a big corporation, like how WotC was before they sold out (literally).



I think you´re thinking in the wrong direction. It will certainly be a gaming product, but what gaming product, I have no clue. I hope it´s something I´ll find useful, like an AE adventure series, but I know that´s not what it will be...


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## jokamachi (Jul 6, 2005)

Monte's been freelancing for Wotc, albeit under strict secrecy. I'm guessing that the product will be related to the current edition, but will be setting specific, most likely Planescape or Greyhawk.


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## Einan (Jul 6, 2005)

Maybe it's the Orc and Pie Gazetteer?  Your guide to the world of Orc et Pie!  Fight Orcs!  Eat Pies!  Explore the famous Orcish Pie Factory!  Explore the famous Pieish Orc Factory!

Einan


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## Banshee16 (Jul 6, 2005)

MaxKaladin said:
			
		

> No.  I think Monte has been hired to write 4e for Wizards.  See, they generally announce a  new edition a year ahead of time and someone said this product is supposed to be for GenCon 2006 and that would mean a GenCon 2005 announcement...
> 
> Plus, we have that evil laugh from Eric Mona to back this theory up!  I mean, he wouldn't evil-laugh if something like this wasn't in the works, would he?




I'm pretty sure that's fallacious.  Just a month or two ago, a WotC staffer was on the WotC message boards allaying concerns that 4E is coming out already.  They said they're not planning on releasing it for several years, because they believe they have a popular, workable ruleset at the moment.

Banshee


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## Vocenoctum (Jul 6, 2005)

wingsandsword said:
			
		

> I don't see it as likely, but it would be better to have D&D back in the hands of a small, privately held company run exclusively by dedicated gamers, instead of ultimately at the hands of a big corporation, like how WotC was before they sold out (literally).



Considering Monte is linked with White Wolf, I'd prefer not to see that. WotC might have been smaller than some, but they had a lot more people that Monte did. Besides the transition time. Besides the fact that many of us don't care for Monte Cooks style, or his Anti-Gnomite tendencies. And heck, we'll mention the poor quality of a lot of the WW D20 books to date too.

WotC has done fine before and after Hasbro, it'd be a shame to ruin a good thing to sate the anti-corporate/ Cook fanboi tastes of some.


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## Meowzebub (Jul 6, 2005)

Can a guy hope for Lankhmar as a setting for Iron Heroes?


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## Khairn (Jul 6, 2005)

I can picture Monte in my minds eye, reading this thread and laughing his head off.


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## DaveMage (Jul 6, 2005)

Devyn said:
			
		

> I can picture Monte in my minds eye, reading this thread and laughing his head off.




Isn't speculation fun?


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## Einan (Jul 6, 2005)

Devyn said:
			
		

> I can picture Monte in my minds eye, reading this thread and laughing his head off.




In your dream is he wearing a blue clown's wig and playing the accordion?

No?

Darn.  It's just me, then.

Einan


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## EricNoah (Jul 6, 2005)

Monte's pretty good at making us play the guessing game.  Remember the speculation leading up to _Book of Vile Darkness_? I think at one point _Rod of Wonder: the Gnomish Kama Sutra _ was the leading guess...


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## reveal (Jul 6, 2005)

Einan said:
			
		

> In your dream is he wearing a blue clown's wig and playing the accordion?
> 
> No?
> 
> ...




Tony: [describing his dream] So there I am, getting it on with this perfect female body and...
Mike: What?
Tony: I can't say.
Mike: No, you can't give a build-up like that and not deliver. you know, a perfect female body, it?s not a bad start.
Tony: But with the head of Abraham Lincoln. with the hat and the beard, everything.


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## Thornir Alekeg (Jul 6, 2005)

Greatwyrm said:
			
		

> Well, crap!  I wanted to have the first loony 4e prediciton.  Now I gotta look for another thread.



Sorry, I'll let you take the next one, I promise


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## Aeson (Jul 6, 2005)

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> Muhahahahaha.
> 
> --Erik Mona
> Editor-in-Chief
> Dragon & Dungeon



Eric, How doth thoust mock so? Just because you told me the secret doesn't give us the right to rub it in the noses of the readers.


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## reveal (Jul 6, 2005)

Aeson said:
			
		

> Eric, How doth thoust mock so? Just because you told me the secret doesn't give us the right to rub it in the noses of the readers.




Yes it does.


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## BiggusGeekus (Jul 6, 2005)

I'm betting Monte stole my notes for _Llamaworld d20_.

The little thief!


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## Wulf Ratbane (Jul 6, 2005)

jokamachi said:
			
		

> Monte's been freelancing for Wotc, albeit under strict secrecy. I'm guessing that the product will be related to the current edition, but will be setting specific, most likely Planescape or Greyhawk.




That wouldn't seem to make it big news for _Malhavoc_, though. 

Although there's no reason that Malhavoc couldn't have licensed out Planescape or Greyhawk, the distribution arrangement through Sword and Sorcery makes it a little... weird.


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## BiggusGeekus (Jul 6, 2005)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> Although there's no reason that Malhavoc couldn't have licensed out Planescape




Man, oh, man.  I'd love to see that.


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## Aeson (Jul 6, 2005)

BiggusGeekus said:
			
		

> I'm betting Monte stole my notes for _Llamaworld d20_.
> 
> The little thief!



Oops that was me. Sorry my bad. I just love them Llamas.


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## Rasyr (Jul 6, 2005)

Banshee16 said:
			
		

> I'm pretty sure that's fallacious.  Just a month or two ago, a WotC staffer was on the WotC message boards allaying concerns that 4E is coming out already.  They said they're not planning on releasing it for several years, because they believe they have a popular, workable ruleset at the moment.



Just want to point out that until WotC was ready to make such an announcement, that the statement you attribute to the employee mentioned above would, in fact, be the exact type of statement such an employee would be required to make.


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## Driddle (Jul 6, 2005)

One of my friends' parents knows someone who works with Monte's hair stylist, who said the big guy himself accidentally left behind a page proof for an upcoming catalog:

*"The End: When Campaigns Collide"* -- _this massive product brings to a definitive close such beloved campaign worlds as Forgotten Realms, Planescape and Dark Sun, as a multiverse-level threat brings those settings together into a terrible -- and ultimately fatal -- clash worthy of the sagas. When faced with inescapable anhilation, how will the true hero act?_


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## Einan (Jul 6, 2005)

Rasyr said:
			
		

> Just want to point out that until WotC was ready to make such an announcement, that the statement you attribute to the employee mentioned above would, in fact, be the exact type of statement such an employee would be required to make.




Why do I feel like we've just committed one of the classic blunders?  The first and most famous being never engage in a land war in Asia, but only slightly less famous is this:  Never go in against a Sicilian when Death is on the line!

My point being, we could chase that line of thought around the block until we're blue in the face.  A company like WOTC would not knowingly ask an employee to lie to its clientele.  It's just not good business.  At worst said employee would be asked to do is not comment.

4th edition will come when 3rd edition's sales slump to a point where a needed boost is necessary for the continuation of profitable existence of the line.  Not before.  When it comes, we will all buy it.  Not because it's an improvement, but because we are addicted to the game.  We will grumble, we will complain, we will spit.  We will buy.  Like Disney's lemmings we will buy.  

Sorry.  I'll step off my soapbox now.

Einan


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## JamesDJarvis (Jul 6, 2005)

Malhavoc Press will be publishing Dragon Magazine.


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## The Grumpy Celt (Jul 6, 2005)

The big secret is Malhavok won the contract to convert White Wolf storytelling system to d20.

[Grumpy runs and hides]


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## Plane Sailing (Jul 6, 2005)

How about "Return to Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil"?


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## jokamachi (Jul 6, 2005)

If it's going to be Planescape, then then I suspect the following scenario unfolded: BCD was a test balloon, but one cleverly disguised as a reunion of the Planescape crew. When all the pieces were in place (basically, getting all the writers to commit to the project), Monte sold the idea to Wotc with sales of the BCD to back up his plan. Wotc leased out the rights to Malhavoc on the spot, and they've been running with it ever since.


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## Pants (Jul 6, 2005)

Monte Cook's new project?
_Arcana Slightly Re-Evolved_.
980 pages of full color, overly glossy picture goodness, with all pictures drawn by a now fingerless Sam Wood. The book introduces NEW concepts such as prestigious classes (Prestige Classes done right, bitch!), Overly Complex spells, Aranopelli (giant mosquito people... yeah, screw you Mr. Mieville!), and a new class, the Peacemain, a class devoted to using magical 'reefe' powers to induce peace into enemies (abilities include the use of larger, and larger bong-like instruments in combat, and other peace-related abilities...). Finally, the metaplot of the setting has been pushed forward a few minutes. The Dragons have returned... but now they're going out for brunch!


It doesn't sound like Monte is doing PS, though that would be super sweet (though it would be neat if he got the rights to Dark Sun)...


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## BiggusGeekus (Jul 6, 2005)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> How about "Return to Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil"?




OK, I know you're kidding, but I rarely get to say, _"I was talking to Monte Cook and he said ...."_  So, to that end, at Origins he expressly stated that he wouldn't do a RtRttToEE.  However, he did seem fond of doing a large adventure in general.  I asked him about doing one for Acana Evolved, he said that AE doesn't really lend itself to large dungeon crawls, but that doing a large adventure for AE would be neat.

For whatever that's worth.


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## The Grumpy Celt (Jul 6, 2005)

How about _ Revenge of the Return to the Dawn of the Sinister Secrets of the Tomb of Elemental Horrors, _ with new rules for GMs punching players in the face.


----------



## Pants (Jul 6, 2005)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> How about _ Revenge of the Return to the Dawn of the Sinister Secrets of the Tomb of Elemental Horrors, _ with new rules for GMs punching players in the face.



I think it comes with a complimentary shovel...


----------



## reiella (Jul 6, 2005)

From the sound of things, it's prolly a pre-built campaign/composite adventure path.


----------



## BryonD (Jul 6, 2005)

He's doing a Midnight product:

Shadow of the Eldritch Fane of the Shadow


----------



## Pants (Jul 6, 2005)

BryonD said:
			
		

> He's doing a Midnight product:
> 
> Shadow of the Eldritch Fane of the Shadow



Worst name ever.


----------



## Arbiter of Wyrms (Jul 6, 2005)

Monte Cook Presents: The Now Totally Complete and Hyper-evolved Book of Eldritch Fane Arcana: Ptolus Edition, Being a Compleat and True Telling of the Dragon King heretofore known as Her Serenity, the Lady of Pain, Ol' Bladehead, and her enduring romance with Elminster of Greyhawk. (With My Little Pony (r) RPG conversion notes.  (A Ravenloft Aventure/Sourcebook/Eventbook for 12-15 4th level characters native to TSR's Red Steel Setting)


----------



## The Grumpy Celt (Jul 6, 2005)

Arbiter of Wyrms said:
			
		

> Monte Cook Presents...





BAAM! The copyright lawyer's head explodes.


----------



## Einan (Jul 6, 2005)

Maybe he's changing his name to Monty Haul?


----------



## MetalBard (Jul 6, 2005)

What with the ecology of the Kraken, Ed Greenwood's first installment of Cities of the Realms and Monte Cook's announcement, I know what I'll be buying on July 26th.

Hopefully one of Dragon's subscribers will let us know what the announcement is in a week or so...


----------



## jester47 (Jul 6, 2005)

BryonD said:
			
		

> He's doing a Midnight product:
> 
> Shadow of the Eldritch Fane of the Shadow




THE Shadow!?
The SHADOW!?
The Shadow.


----------



## Arbiter of Wyrms (Jul 6, 2005)

I confess to rabid fandom over just about any product that Monte puts out, but he has explicitely said on more than one occassion that he doesn't really have an interest in acquiring any liscence and just doesn't enjoy doing conversions.  As much as I would like to see more Planescape material, I'm sure that if it does come, it won't be from Monte.  

The largest product one RPG writer has ever done?  It's not a module.  If it were, it would be a pointless imitation of World's Largest Dungeon, and not worth doing in color, because color or black and white, it would be too expensive to sell more than a hundred copies.  It's not another event book.  They seem to have stopped, sadly enough.  

I want to entertain the idea that it's a new system, but as Monte was integral to the design of 3rd edition and then designed AU/AE and no doubt had a hand in the creation of Iron Heroes, I don't see that a new system would be sufficiently different from these to warrant publication and if it were, it would likely be so different as to compromise sales.

So, we can be fairly sure that this new product will either be straight d20, AE, or Iron Heroes.  I'm guessing straight d20, specifically D&D.  I have a feeling that that is Malhavoc's bread and butter.

It won't be an adventure.  What if it were a sourcebook? Racial? No.  I don't see Monte doing a big book of races Dwarves, Litorians. . . nothing really works from a business standpoint nor does it look like it would be a large enough project to justify the earlier remark.  Classes?  Eldritch Might one, two, three, complete, Hallowed Might one and two.  Iron Might.  Roguish Luck.  What does that leave?  The Book of Leafy Might?  No. Sorry. I don't see it.  So, no class book.  

No new game system.  No racial or class sourcebook.  I don't see him hedging in on the environment series.  Ptolus is a possibility, perhaps, but a slim one.  As another poster pointed out already, The Banewarrens provided enough of a rough sketch that if you're desperate to run a game in Monte's homebrew, you can just use that and infer from the campaign journal on his website.

A monster book.  Well, Monte did say one time that he makes more monsters than he uses from published settings, but Legacy of the Dragons just came out, really, and it doesn't seem to have shattered any sales records.  Why put the money into a shiny new color bestiary?  

I really can't guess what he's got up his sleeve, but I think he's been playing this one close to the chest for a long time.  I think that that's why he hired Mike Mearls in the first place.  Mike is an excellent designer, and hyper-prolific to boot.  His game sensabilities seem similar, or at least compatible with Monte's, so Monte and Sue were sitting around the kitchen table after a game one night and Monte said to Sue "I'd really like to design X.  That'd be cool!"  and so Sue asks 
"Why don't you?"
"It would take forever. I wouldn't be able to write anything else for a year!"
"So, don't write anything else for a year.  The whole reason you left Wizards was to write what you wanted, right?"
"Yeah, but Malhavoc can't survive a whole year without new new products.  How would we pay for Marley's food?"
"So hire somebody.  Bruce and Sean and Skip have all written for Malhavoc.  We could just hire some people to write other Malhavoc-y products while you work on X."
"We can't hire a whole writing staff.  What we need is a caffiene-powered robot."



or not.  who knows?  

Oh! and by the way, whatever happened with Monte Cook Presents the Best of d20?"  Did that come out during finals week and I missed it or what?  Was it cancelled?


----------



## Desdichado (Jul 6, 2005)

Erekose13 said:
			
		

> With Beyond Countless Doorways out I dont think thats it.  That and he said that he doesnt want to go through the hassle of getting rights to someone else's IP. .



No, the correct response to that post is; "I'll take that bet!  What odds are you giving me?"


----------



## Wombat (Jul 6, 2005)

Whatever else happens, y'gotta give Monte points for his ability to build anticipation and discussion on his products.  

I mean, look at how he built up the excitement over AU, and now with Iron Lords.  The man know how to sell in the rpg market!


----------



## wingsandsword (Jul 6, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> WotC has done fine before and after Hasbro, it'd be a shame to ruin a good thing to sate the anti-corporate/ Cook fanboi tastes of some.



Now, my original post was meant in jest.  But to address this remark: I see lots of worry and antagonism directed at the idea that D&D is made by Hasbro.  It ties into the 4e fear that they'll shoot another edition out just to make some money every few years, instead of waiting a long time like they did with 2e and 3e.

I really just hope the surprise has absolutely nothing to do with 4e.  Malhavoc licensing Planescape would be perfect, IMO, but unlikely (isn't WotC dead set against licensing their old settings and refused prior offers from Malhavoc?)


----------



## ashockney (Jul 6, 2005)

Two words: Movie Deal.

Could be animated, could be for tv, could be for direct release.

That's my bet.


----------



## Wormwood (Jul 6, 2005)

1. Dungeon Master's Guide: King James Version

2. d23: From the man who brought you d20 . . . three more!

3. Arcana Fana Fo Fana

4. Heward's Magical Organ of Erotic Fantasy


----------



## reveal (Jul 6, 2005)

Wormwood said:
			
		

> 1. Dungeon Master's Guide: King James Version
> 
> 2. d23: From the man who brought you d20 . . . three more!
> 
> ...




5. Monte Cook Presents: Does It Matter? You Know You'll Buy It.


----------



## Erekose13 (Jul 6, 2005)

Upcoming products we know about:
Iron Heroes - Print and PDF on July 28th, 2005
Mastering Iron Heroes - PDF in Aug. 2005, Print in Oct. 2005
Year's Best d20 - Print and PDF in Sept. 2005
Iron Heroes Bestiary - PDF in Nov. 2005, Print in Jan. 2006

Re: Movie, he's in one that is coming out/is out soon ~ Gamers 2!


----------



## MaxKaladin (Jul 6, 2005)

Banshee16 said:
			
		

> I'm pretty sure that's fallacious.  Just a month or two ago, a WotC staffer was on the WotC message boards allaying concerns that 4E is coming out already.  They said they're not planning on releasing it for several years, because they believe they have a popular, workable ruleset at the moment.



Yeah, I was making a joke.


----------



## Simplicity (Jul 7, 2005)

BryonD said:
			
		

> He's doing a Midnight product:
> 
> Shadow of the Eldritch Fane of the Shadow




I think Monte's developing a Fanescape setting.  It's Fanetastic!


----------



## romp (Jul 7, 2005)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> BAAM! The copyright lawyer's head explodes.




LOL  

this thread has been a hoot!


----------



## romp (Jul 7, 2005)

jester47 said:
			
		

> THE Shadow!?
> The SHADOW!?
> The Shadow.




BWAHAHA!!

/me picks himself up off the floor and rearranges his shirt

this thread just keeps getting better...


----------



## Vocenoctum (Jul 7, 2005)

wingsandsword said:
			
		

> Now, my original post was meant in jest.  But to address this remark: I see lots of worry and antagonism directed at the idea that D&D is made by Hasbro.  It ties into the 4e fear that they'll shoot another edition out just to make some money every few years, instead of waiting a long time like they did with 2e and 3e.




The funniest part is that there's no sign of 4e, anywhere. I'm sure WotC is regretting 3.5 edition, just because it fed these constant "4E" rumors. Really though, why the 4e fixation, when there's no signs of it?
As a division of Hasbro, I don't think Hasbro even notices what D&D does.


----------



## Greatwyrm (Jul 7, 2005)

Wormwood said:
			
		

> 3. Arcana Fana Fo Fana




Where's the spit-take smiley when I need it?

And Mr. Cook, if you're here laughing at us, at least give us a courtesy nod.


----------



## MulhorandSage (Jul 7, 2005)

Monte's leaving gaming to pursue his Broadway dream. He's writing and producing a new musical called "Fane!"

Seriously, I look forward to seeing what he's got in store for us.


----------



## Nightfall (Jul 7, 2005)

*still holding out hope for a Planescape done by Malhavoc*

You people mock. But I feel it in these old bones.


----------



## Krug (Jul 7, 2005)

My guess is *Orc and Pie Evolved*.


----------



## Nightfall (Jul 7, 2005)

No... if anything is evolving it's people's sense of humor. At least I hope so.


----------



## ThirdWizard (Jul 7, 2005)

_Monte Cook Presents: 1001 ways to kill PCs
_
The web enhancement has ways to make the players think its their own fault.


----------



## Vocenoctum (Jul 7, 2005)

Krug said:
			
		

> My guess is *Orc and Pie Evolved*.




Orcus and Pi, a Book of Demons and Circles to Bind  Them.


----------



## Mighty Veil (Jul 7, 2005)

Einan said:
			
		

> Maybe he's changing his name to Monty Haul?




LOL 
Yeah I could see it now..
Monte Haul Present: Dragons And Dungeons (director's super cool more awesome cut)
"You must get tired of playing boring weak WotC Wizards, right? Boring D&D Elves who have to use that awful uncool anti-gamerz fan, Karl Rove written Listen skill, right!? Monte Haul presents the most original and fan friendly game Ever!! DRAGONS AND DUNGEONS!!!!
Imagine playing a wizard with d10 hit dice and three times the spells! Elves on steroids! SUPER COOL! Fan friendly non evil big business-like ideas like skills like Listen AND Spot. They've been merged with Craft (except Craft Alchemy which is super fan friendly cool), Jump, Knowledge History to create the super cool new skill: Ultimate Kewl Skill! Ever wanted to play the Superfriends? Now you can with new races like: Batfolk, because BatMEN would be uncool (regular humans who dress up in super cool costume), and Jan and Jen Folk (you get to play twins who can polymorph into any animal and ice bridge! SUPER COOL FAN FRIENDLY FUN!!). PDF version out next month for a friendly $49.34 (not even that awful big business Wal-mart has such awesome cool prices!). Print version 6 months later for only 49.43! Ultimate cool it's Dragons and Dungeons! 16 races. 29 classes! 567 prestige classes. And... 7 Advanced Ultimate Cool Classes!! What are those?? Buy the book, I wrote it!"

sorry, couldn't resist ;-)


----------



## Ringmereth (Jul 7, 2005)

It's been a long while since I've had to play the ignorant newb and interrupt a threadful of in-jokes... but what's with the 'Orc and Pie' references?

Anyway, if Monte's doing something new, big, revolutionary, earth-shaking, and all that, I'd hope for an Epic redesign. A Planescape campaign setting conversion would be cool and all, but with Eberron, the market probably doesn't need another 3.x CS, and a really good Epic handbook would be welcomed as more people do Epic campaigns and realize the enormous problems (Epic Spellcasting, for one) of the current rules.


----------



## Vocenoctum (Jul 7, 2005)

Ringmereth said:
			
		

> It's been a long while since I've had to play the ignorant newb and interrupt a threadful of in-jokes... but what's with the 'Orc and Pie' references?



Worlds Shortest Adventure, some years ago Monte posted it to his site. You open the door, there's an orc, with a pie...

Anyway, it was funny at first, but has since been run into the ground. I'd say it jumped the shark, but saying jumped the shark has jumped the shark...

I'm sure it's on Montecook.com somewhere.


----------



## LightPhoenix (Jul 7, 2005)

D20 Pants-less.


----------



## Prince of Happiness (Jul 7, 2005)

Arcana DEVO-lved, with featuring new feats such as: Uncontrollable Urge, and Whip It; PC races such as Mongoloids, Beautiful Mutants, and Spudboys; and new prestige classes such as Smart Patroller! Are you through being cool and wish to dare the Gates of Steel?


----------



## Ringmereth (Jul 7, 2005)

I get it now (and can see why it's 'jumped the shark'). Thanks.


----------



## Campbell (Jul 7, 2005)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> D20 Pants-less.



Who would stat out the Yugoloths?


----------



## A'koss (Jul 7, 2005)

*Hey, if Martha can do it...*

Monte Cooking?


----------



## Krug (Jul 7, 2005)

True d4?


----------



## arscott (Jul 7, 2005)

Einan said:
			
		

> Maybe he's changing his name to Monty Haul?



 But the term itself comes from the name of an old game show host (who gave away whatever fabulous prize that was behind door number 3.  Hence the name.)

Naming yourself after a play style that was named after someone else is a bit over the top (and not quite original enough for monte.)


----------



## Plane Sailing (Jul 7, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Orcus and Pi, a Book of Demons and Circles to Bind  Them.




Best variant of Orc and Pie EVAR.


----------



## Einan (Jul 7, 2005)

arscott said:
			
		

> But the term itself comes from the name of an old game show host (who gave away whatever fabulous prize that was behind door number 3. Hence the name.)
> 
> Naming yourself after a play style that was named after someone else is a bit over the top (and not quite original enough for monte.)




JOKE!  JOKE!  JOKE!

Damn it, Spock!  We humans have something we call........humor.  We say things because.....they're funny.  They are not meant to be.......literal.  Damn your vaunted Vulcan logic!

Einan (Channelling Kirk, in case I have to point it out to completely ruin the joke....)


----------



## Desdichado (Jul 7, 2005)

Ringmereth said:
			
		

> I get it now (and can see why it's 'jumped the shark'). Thanks.



It hasn't jumped the shark at all--orc and pie references are (usually) still funny.


----------



## DaveMage (Jul 7, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Orcus and Pi, a Book of Demons and Circles to Bind  Them.


----------



## Kae'Yoss (Jul 7, 2005)

Iron Fane?



			
				wingsandsword said:
			
		

> (isn't WotC dead set against licensing their old settings and refused prior offers from Malhavoc?)




Ravenloft.


----------



## wingsandsword (Jul 7, 2005)

Kae'Yoss said:
			
		

> Ravenloft.



I mean, they changed their mind after Ravenloft and Dragonlance, and aren't listening to further licensing offers.  Monte Cook even said so explicitly last November here that he didn't expect WotC to ever license out any more of their settings (although he did say that if they made a big change in policy and he was able to work out a licensing deal without too many strings attached and for a reasonable cost he'd certainly go back to Planescape)

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1880680&postcount=65


----------



## Wraith Form (Jul 7, 2005)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> D20 Pants-less.



?????

I've been doing that for _years_, though..?!?


----------



## Kae'Yoss (Jul 7, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> It hasn't jumped the shark at all--orc and pie references are (usually) still funny.




It's one of the legends of Roleplaying, I guess, along with the Hat of d02. The D&D-Version of All your Base.


----------



## The Grumpy Celt (Jul 7, 2005)

Kae'Yoss said:
			
		

> ...the Hat of d02.




What is that?


----------



## hexgrid (Jul 7, 2005)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> What is that?




http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?threadid=31914

I notice it says "hate" though. Is the legendary quote incorrect?

In any case, that post eventually led to stuff like this:

http://www.cafepress.com/guardiansorder/321114


----------



## Kelon (Jul 7, 2005)

I bet it will be a D20 Science Fiction. Perhaps Ptolus in the future. Monte worked on Spacemaster and Alternity as far as I know. Perhaps he had saved some ideas for later use. Monte is his own boss and write was he wants. After doing different styles of fantasy /(D&D, AE, IH) its time for someting new.


----------



## the black knight (Jul 7, 2005)

While his AE line has been quite popular among gamers in the know, Monte has been outside the buying mainstream that big companies like Wotc enjoys, and he knows it. Pholtus would be a labor of love, certainly, but not enough gamers know about it to make it a viable success overall. I suspect this latest project will be big in a way that only Monte can pull off: a Planescape revival, Malhavoc publishing Greyhawk books, or perhaps 4e itself. Nothing sci-fi, nothing fringe; Monte has to get back into the cross-hairs.


----------



## dagger (Jul 7, 2005)

Man, enough already, give us the info and be done with it.


----------



## Kae'Yoss (Jul 7, 2005)

dagger said:
			
		

> edit
> 
> Nevermind




Want to sell us old news?


----------



## dagger (Jul 7, 2005)

I was gonna do a fake press release, I was busy formating it before I edited and hit submit instead of preview. BAH! Should have just done it in Word or something.


Next time!


----------



## Ozmar (Jul 7, 2005)

Acid_crash said:
			
		

> LoL
> 
> Cosidering that there aren't any plans (as far as I know) of new AE materials coming out it's probably another new PHB with it's own setting and twisted sense of rules/taste..err... style.
> 
> That's my guess.




If that were the case, wouldn't he be stomping on the toes of his own baby since Iron Heroes is coming out the same month?

Ozmar the Baby Protector


----------



## Nightfall (Jul 7, 2005)

*believe both Monte and WotC have changed their minds about such things...*


----------



## bolen (Jul 7, 2005)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> *believe both Monte and WotC have changed their minds about such things...*



What things?


----------



## Nightfall (Jul 7, 2005)

Reread the previous posts. One of the posters, wingsandswords, said something about WotC no longer interested and/or willing to licence out its old campaign settings. There's also a link by him where Monte said "If they offered me a truckload of money, I would still say no."

That's what and why has that changed?

Simple, people WANT different settings. Eberron was the start but now with the Black Company and soon with Theives' World, people want stuff they can enjoy and remember for not being "D&D" so much as just fun sword and sorcery.


----------



## the black knight (Jul 7, 2005)

I'll agree with a previous poster when I say that Beyond Countless Doorways was mostly likely Monte's attempt to prove that Planescape could once again be a viable setting. 
Nothing like sales figures to get one's point across.

My money's on Planescape, but I'm holding out for Greyhawk; maybe that's where Mona's evil laugh comes in.


----------



## Monte At Home (Jul 7, 2005)

Hey guys. I thought I'd step in and answer some of the questions that I can. It's Dragon's exclusive thing to make the actual announcement, and so I can't really address that--I can say that it's a new PRODUCT announcement. It's got nothing to do with Wizards or movies or anything like that. It's not going to change the world or anything, but I think it's cool. Really cool, in fact. I hope you will too. (The ultimate "coolness" of it won't be as apparent as it will when you actually see it in the store, but there you go.)

We do have more products coming for AE as well, although not yet announced. Expect a big magic-related Arcana Evolved book to be announced soon though. The big project is not an AE book, however. It instead zeroes in on the heart of 3rd edition and the core rules. That, in fact, is the point of it, although it may not seem that way at first glance.

It's not Planescape. I'll say that right up front because I don't want people's hopes dashed. I'm very sympathetic toward those of you that would like to see PS return. I'd like to see it to, although I can't imagine working with WotC on it nor can I imagine WotC licensing out properties like that anymore. (I could be wrong, though--things change.)

I've really enjoyed reading this thread for all the joke guesses. I laughed out loud more than once. (It would be the height of irony to turn Orc and Pie into a 640 page book, since the point of that was to be the shortest product ever.)

I will say the following quote is so true that it almost scares me, making me want to check the kitchen for hidden microphones:



> I really can't guess what he's got up his sleeve, but I think he's been playing this one close to the chest for a long time. I think that that's why he hired Mike Mearls in the first place. Mike is an excellent designer, and hyper-prolific to boot. His game sensabilities seem similar, or at least compatible with Monte's, so Monte and Sue were sitting around the kitchen table after a game one night and Monte said to Sue "I'd really like to design X. That'd be cool!" and so Sue asks
> "Why don't you?"
> "It would take forever. I wouldn't be able to write anything else for a year!"
> "So, don't write anything else for a year. The whole reason you left Wizards was to write what you wanted, right?"
> ...


----------



## Kae'Yoss (Jul 7, 2005)

So tell us: How much did that robot cost you?


----------



## Nightfall (Jul 7, 2005)

Heart of 3rd edition rules...what you mean nachos and Mountain Dew?! 

Seriously glad to see someone was on point. *keeps hoping for a 3rd edition PCSC*


----------



## Macbeth (Jul 7, 2005)

A bit disappointed by the lack of PLanescape, but hey, I still can't wait to see it.


----------



## Nightfall (Jul 7, 2005)

You and me both Mac. I kept hoping "Man maybe THIS will be the year WotC and Malhavoc seal the deal!"


----------



## Shemeska (Jul 8, 2005)

Shucks.

Still consider me curious though about what it is. Thanks for the clarification Monte.


----------



## Simplicity (Jul 8, 2005)

Hmmmm... Lots of tidbits there...

So:
1) It's a 640 page RULEbook (as opposed to a setting, etc.)
2) It's a Malhavoc product (not Wizards related... only thing that makes sense).

What rulebooks do we have from WotC?  
Players Handbook...  DMG...  Epic... Psionic...  That's it, right?

I don't think it's a basic PHB rules rewrite...  after all that's kind of what AU was all about.
DMG rules rewrite... maybe but...  seems difficult to improve significantly.
It's not going to be a psionic rules rewrite... We've seen that already.
Epic rewrite ... maybe...

So, I'm going to pull out my crystal ball and predict it:

Humunahumana...  
Monte is doing a complete rewrite of the magic system in D&D...
Well, that's it then.  The spirits have spoken.  You can go now.


----------



## Thotas (Jul 8, 2005)

I must be the only one, but ... I'm glad it's not Planescape.


----------



## Nightfall (Jul 8, 2005)

Yeah I think you are.

*pats Shemmy* Don't worry maybe next year.


----------



## scadgrad (Jul 8, 2005)

Yeah, I think you are the only one there Thotas. Man, that's just brutally disappointing.

Thanks for clearing the air Monte, that was very thoughtful and much appreciated.


----------



## Nightfall (Jul 8, 2005)

*agrees with Scad* Better not to keep the suspense up too much I guess...


----------



## the black knight (Jul 8, 2005)

Uh, I think we've had enough 'rewrites' of the magic system til now, thank you. If it's Pholtus, then I'm just not interested. If, however, it is another Monte Mega-Adventure(tm), well then, that's a different story altogether.


----------



## romp (Jul 8, 2005)

Krug said:
			
		

> True d4?




hehe  (snicker ...)

low power campaign supplement as an antidote to epic campaigns???


----------



## Nightfall (Jul 8, 2005)

*doubts it will be magic* After all if they want "Magic" they'll just have the guys in the Magic department work on.


----------



## romp (Jul 8, 2005)

Monte At Home said:
			
		

> I've really enjoyed reading this thread for all the joke guesses. I laughed out loud more than once. (It would be the height of irony to turn Orc and Pie into a 640 page book, since the point of that was to be the shortest product ever.)
> 
> I will say the following quote is so true that it almost scares me, making me want to check the kitchen for hidden microphones:




LOLMFAO   

that "imaginary" conversation rocked i can just imagine Marley chiming in with a woof too!

Orc and Pie in the World's Largest Dungeon  ...


----------



## Kae'Yoss (Jul 8, 2005)

Simplicity said:
			
		

> Monte is doing a complete rewrite of the magic system in D&D...
> Well, that's it then.  The spirits have spoken.  You can go now.




A magic system with 640 pages. That would be one hell of a rewrite. That's the size of two 3.5 core books. But of course, he said something about stat blocks. So maybe he did redo magic and has updated all monsters to use the new system to boot.


----------



## Monte At Home (Jul 8, 2005)

Simplicity said:
			
		

> 1) It's a 640 page RULEbook (as opposed to a setting, etc.)




Looking back at what I wrote, I can see how you might get that, but that's not what I actually wrote.


----------



## Kae'Yoss (Jul 8, 2005)

Monte At Home said:
			
		

> Looking back at what I wrote, I can see how you might get that, but that's not what I actually wrote.




Magic's back in, people. 

I think we finally have to mince a new word here:

_monte_ (verb)
1. To masterfully build expectations and suspense about a future product yet to be revealed. 
_He really monted the Book of Vile Darkness when he referred to it as the "Gnomish Karma Sutra"_


----------



## Reynard (Jul 8, 2005)

Monte At Home said:
			
		

> I can say that it's a new PRODUCT announcement. ... The big project is not an AE book, however. It instead zeroes in on the heart of 3rd edition and the core rules. That, in fact, is the point of it, although it may not seem that way at first glance.




Minis.  Something with minis.  Remember, Monte design HeroClix.  He knows what he's doing outside the standard RPG book.  Maybe it is a big boxed set with minis and stat cards.  maybe it is a new way of using miniatures in the game itself.  Maybe it is a d20 inspired wargame.  But it definitely has something to do with minis.

Monte: if I am right, I want a free set when they come out.


----------



## Vradna (Jul 8, 2005)

Monte's teamed up with Flying Buffalo and rereleasing Tunnels & Trolls OGL.
AMULET OF THE SALKTI! 
CAPTIF D'YVOIRE!
DEATHTRAP EQAULIZER!
CITY OF TERROR!
BEYOND THE SILVERED PANE!
ARENA OF KAZAN!
NAKED DOOM!
CATACOMBS OF THE BEAR CULT!
ISLE OF DARKSMOKE!

YEAH!

...

..

.



 :\ 


nah.


My money's on a WORLD OF GREYHAWK setting, or something to do with Vecna.


----------



## Nightfall (Jul 8, 2005)

Well maybe it's a mass combat system...with minis!


----------



## LeaderDesslok (Jul 8, 2005)

It's obvious what the book is. He's been locked away for a whole year, typing and typing and typing. I have scryed page 432 for you...here's a sneak peek. You saw it here first!



> All work and no play make Monte a dull boy. All work and no play make Monte a dull boy. All work and no play make Monte a dull boy. All work and no play make Monte a dull boy. All work and no play make Monte a dull boy. All work and no play make Monte a dull boy. All work and no play make Monte a dull boy.
> 
> "All work and no play make Monte a dull boy."
> 
> ...


----------



## romp (Jul 8, 2005)

LeaderDesslok said:
			
		

> It's obvious what the book is. He's been locked away for a whole year, typing and typing and typing. I have scryed page 432 for you...here's a sneak peek. You saw it here first!





hehe  

maybe its an AE world guide in a box with licensed Clix figures ...


----------



## Nuclear Platypus (Jul 8, 2005)

jester47 said:
			
		

> THE Shadow!?
> The SHADOW!?
> The Shadow.




Yes, the Shadow, who is, in reality, Lamont Cranston, wealthy young man-about-town.

Personally, I'd rather see something other than Planescape. An actual Transformers d20 game? The movie's coming out (supposedly) next year and Hasbro owns the trademark. Monte manages to bring back The Adventures of Brisco County Jr or at least get 'em on DVD? Hmm, Dragonball Z/GT d20? Ok, maybe not.

Who knows what evil lurks in the mind of Monte?


----------



## the black knight (Jul 8, 2005)

It might be a rendering of hell. In detail. With Asmodeus' fortress waiting for you at the end.That would pique my interest.


----------



## Acid_crash (Jul 8, 2005)

Isn't Greyhawk a licensed setting of WotC?


----------



## Vradna (Jul 8, 2005)

Acid_crash said:
			
		

> Isn't Greyhawk a licensed setting of WotC?




Yes, but it doesn't hurt to hope. Mebbee CITY OF GREYHAWK or CASTLE GREYHAWK redux.


----------



## Aris Dragonborn (Jul 8, 2005)

I predict one of the following:

1. A product that will give gamers detailed rules for creating their own races, classes, and prestige classes.

2. A product that will help DM's run low-magic campaigns (which could be interesting).

3. The setting information for running campaigns in the world of _The Gamers_


----------



## Reynard (Jul 8, 2005)

Aris Dragonborn said:
			
		

> I predict one of the following:
> 
> 1. A product that will give gamers detailed rules for creating their own races, classes, and prestige classes.




While this is possible, I think it would be so difficult to codify, and so dry to read, that it seems unlikely.



> 2. A product that will help DM's run low-magic campaigns (which could be interesting).




That is coming out this month, I believe, and is called Iron Heroes.



> 3. The setting information for running campaigns in the world of _The Gamers_




With special rules for banishing irritating extra-dimensional co-eds?


----------



## Belen (Jul 8, 2005)

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> Muhahahahaha.
> 
> --Erik Mona
> Editor-in-Chief
> Dragon & Dungeon




You're just laughing because we're all going to buy that issue!


----------



## Rasyr (Jul 8, 2005)

BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> You're just laughing because we're all going to buy that issue!



Not me. I'll just wait for somebody else to get it and post the information here...


----------



## Ashrem Bayle (Jul 8, 2005)

Which reminds me...shouldn't someone have it by now?


----------



## reveal (Jul 8, 2005)

Ashrem Bayle said:
			
		

> Which reminds me...shouldn't someone have it by now?




It's only been 3 days since it was shipped to subscribers. How fast does it usually get delivered?


----------



## Tolen Mar (Jul 8, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> It's only been 3 days since it was shipped to subscribers. How fast does it usually get delivered?





When I had my subscription, I always got it about 2 or 3 days after someone posted the TOC here.  So Im expecting another week.

Is it in the stores?


----------



## reveal (Jul 8, 2005)

Tolen Mar said:
			
		

> Is it in the stores?




According to the website, not until July 26.


----------



## Tharen the Damned (Jul 8, 2005)

> The big project is not an AE book, however. It instead zeroes in on the heart of 3rd edition and the core rules. That, in fact, is the point of it, although it may not seem that way at first glance.




Hmm,

lets see. Monte wants to give the DM and the Players the power to make their own choices from a great variety of sources. The Classes of Arcana Evolved are one such Example.
And the product zeroes on the heart of the 3rd edition and the core rules.

Can it be, that he wrote a book about designing rules and ultimately a whole game? Can it be, that he gives us all the insights he gathered designing 3rd ed.? All the mathematics involved and such stuff?
This would indded be a big project but appeal only to a small audience.

I would definetly buy this, but I don´t think that this is the big product.


----------



## reveal (Jul 8, 2005)

Monte At Home said:
			
		

> "We can't hire a whole writing staff. What we need is a caffiene-powered robot."




There's your announcement, ladies and gentlemen! Monte will finally admit to the world that Mike Mearls is, indeed, a caffiene-powered robot!


----------



## Macbeth (Jul 8, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> There's your announcement, ladies and gentlemen! Monte will finally admit to the world that Mike Mearls is, indeed, a caffiene-powered robot!



But he said it was a product... will we be able to buy our own caffiene-powered robots? Or play a d20 caffiene-powered robot RPG?


----------



## reveal (Jul 8, 2005)

Macbeth said:
			
		

> But he said it was a product... will we be able to buy our own caffiene-powered robots? Or play a d20 caffiene-powered robot RPG?




Yes.


----------



## DaveMage (Jul 8, 2005)

I thought Monte mentioned somewhere that there were lots of stat blocks involved...

That sounds like an adventure to me...

(Or he went nuts with a book of templates.      )


Or both!


Of course, he also called it a new "PRODUCT" which could mean...

CARDS!  

Maybe Spell cards? Monster cards? NPC cards? Greeting cards? 

D&D Texas Hold 'Em?


----------



## Desdichado (Jul 8, 2005)

DaveMage said:
			
		

> D&D Texas Hold 'Em?



Hey!  That's what me and my wife call...

uh...

nevermind.    

Yeehaw!


----------



## reveal (Jul 8, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> Hey!  That's what me and my wife call...
> 
> uh...
> 
> ...




I'm guessing it wouldn't be appropriate to post my "rodeo s*x" joke here....


----------



## DaveMage (Jul 8, 2005)

Poker?

I don't even know her!

HA!


----------



## MaxKaladin (Jul 8, 2005)

romp said:
			
		

> Orc and Pie in the World's Largest Dungeon  ...



I can see it now:

"Miles and miles of rooms and corridors, yet somewhere in one of them is an orc with a pie..."


----------



## Einan (Jul 8, 2005)

MaxKaladin said:
			
		

> I can see it now:
> 
> "Miles and miles of rooms and corridors, yet somewhere in one of them is an orc with a pie..."




Maybe we all get to play orcs who are trying to fight their way to the pie?

D'orc & D'orc 3.67: Back to the Pie-Hole!

Einan


----------



## Harker Wade (Jul 8, 2005)

After reading this entire thread I think two things are clear-

Monte is in his rights to torture us!

Secondly, that Eric Mona needs to be beaten daily (twice on Sundays) till issue 334 is out! I mean is it really fair for him to be all "Muhahaha" in our faces?! It's not right!


----------



## Simplicity (Jul 8, 2005)

Monte At Home said:
			
		

> Looking back at what I wrote, I can see how you might get that, but that's not what I actually wrote.




*Nonsense!*  The spirits are never wrong!

Well, okay.  Maybe they'll give you this one then.

So it zeroes in to the heart of the core rules... but it's not a rulebook...
It's like a riddle...

_When is a rule not a rule?_

When it's a house rule?


----------



## Simplicity (Jul 8, 2005)

It's probably more likely that it's a Mega-Adventure (which I'm always all for)...  even house rules in a book would compose a rulebook...


----------



## Desdichado (Jul 8, 2005)

It's probably the Erotic Fantasy LARP version.  I know he's had a keen interest in that one.


----------



## BiggusGeekus (Jul 8, 2005)

Simplicity said:
			
		

> So it zeroes in to the heart of the core rules... but it's not a rulebook...




Hmm.  What's the middle page in the PHB, DMG, and MM?  There will lie our answer.


----------



## reveal (Jul 8, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> It's probably the Erotic Fantasy LARP version.  I know he's had a keen interest in that one.




Monte Cook Presents: Hit Me Baby, One More Time
Monte Cook Presents: The Safety Word Is Banana
Monte Cook Presents: The Field Manual On The Sexual Relations Between Orc And Pie


----------



## BiggusGeekus (Jul 8, 2005)

The above post is just ... just ... just _wrong!_

EDIT: though I would be interested to know if that last suggestion would produce a half-orc with the pie template or just a half-pie.


----------



## Desdichado (Jul 8, 2005)

BiggusGeekus said:
			
		

> The above post is just ... just ... just _wrong!_
> 
> EDIT: though I would be interested to know if that last suggestion would produce a half-orc with the pie template or just a half-pie.



And _not_ the half you want to take a bite of...


----------



## reveal (Jul 8, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> And _not_ the half you want to take a bite of...




Moderators Note: We have had to drug reveal for his own protection because Joshua is too good of a straight man.


----------



## Desdichado (Jul 8, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> Moderators Note: We have had to drug reveal for his own protection because Joshua is too good of a straight man.



Is that a double entendre?  Or triple?


----------



## Kae'Yoss (Jul 8, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> Monte Cook Presents: The Field Manual On The Sexual Relations Between Orc And Pie




Will the Orc be played by Jason Biggs?


----------



## Garnfellow (Jul 8, 2005)

For a few years now I have been haunted by an old post from Ryan Dancey on GamingReport.com:



			
				Ryan Dancey said:
			
		

> The other [product I would love to develop] would be the book I keep suggesting that WotC consider publishing: Core Book IV: Game Designer's Guide. The GDG would contain all the systems and mathematical analysis used to construct 3e, and explain how the system works at a low level, and how to add to it and extend it correctly. That book would be a guide to effective encounter, scenario, story and world design, all using the d20 System. It would require tremendous R&D work to do things like figure out a quantifiable CR/EL system, among other monumental tasks. The great thing about that book is that not only would it be a boon companion to the 80+% of DMs who write their own content, but it would be a huge step up for all the OGL/d20 designers who are working from the black box of the DMG.




I could see Monte being one of the few people who could do something like this.


----------



## Nareau (Jul 8, 2005)

Did somebody say  movie deal?

Spider


----------



## Desdichado (Jul 8, 2005)

Hey, cool!  Monte Cook plays a Priest!


----------



## reveal (Jul 8, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> It's probably the Erotic Fantasy LARP version. I know he's had a keen interest in that one.





			
				Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> Hey, cool!  Monte Cook plays a Priest!




I think my head just exploded.


----------



## Desdichado (Jul 8, 2005)

"This product requires the use of the _Book of Vile Darkness_.  Also written by me."


----------



## Dr. Strangemonkey (Jul 8, 2005)

DaveMage said:
			
		

> Poker?
> 
> I don't even know her!
> 
> HA!




And the rimshot award goes to...


----------



## Nightfall (Jul 8, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> Moderators Note: We have had to drug reveal for his own protection because Joshua is too good of a straight man.




hey Morrus! Get your own drugs!!! Don't use mine! 


mmm Poker d20. Well if we can get guys like Keenu and James (woods) to make the game more interesting on TV, I don't see how they could fail with a RPG BASED on Poker.


----------



## Kae'Yoss (Jul 8, 2005)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> hey Morrus! Get your own drugs!!! Don't use mine!
> 
> 
> mmm Poker d20. Well if we can get guys like Keenu and James (woods) to make the game more interesting on TV, I don't see how they could fail with a RPG BASED on Poker.





I play a royal flush!


----------



## Nightfall (Jul 8, 2005)

I prefer Aces over eights.


----------



## reveal (Jul 8, 2005)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> I prefer Aces over eights.




Dead Man's Hand! Dag nabbit, now ya gone'n done it!


----------



## reveal (Jul 8, 2005)

In all seriousness, could this be it?

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...f=sr_1_8/102-5732198-6875330?v=glance&s=books

D&D Special Edition Dungeon Master's Guide
by Monte Cook

A deluxe, leather-bound version of the essential tool every D&D Dungeon Master needs.

The follow-up to the special edition Player’s Handbook™ released in 2004 for the 30th anniversary of D&D, this special release of the Dungeon Master’s Guide™ features an embossed, leather-bound cover and premium, gilt-edged paper.


----------



## Macbeth (Jul 8, 2005)

Is that really what the core books are about? Looking 'cool?' I hope not...


----------



## Kae'Yoss (Jul 8, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> In all seriousness, could this be it?
> 
> D&D Special Edition Dungeon Master's Guide
> by Monte Cook




No. This is simply a 3.5 DMG, probably with errata included, leader-bound and guilt-edged and all. There's nothing new in there.


----------



## Greatwyrm (Jul 8, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> In all seriousness, could this be it?
> 
> ...
> 
> A deluxe, leather-bound version of the essential tool every D&D Dungeon Master needs.




I don't think so, unless Monte is hand stitching all the leather himself.  I'm pretty sure that's just a regular old DMG with a fancy cover, not new material.

Plus, we've already heard about this.  I was under the impression that the Dragon announcement was the first.


----------



## Nightfall (Jul 8, 2005)

Reveal,

As a fan of Orcus, it's naturally I'd have this hand alot.  

And I agree with Kae'yoss. Monte would not simply announced the revised DMG leather bound as a new product. Mostly because I'm sure it's a Malhavoc imprint NOT a WotC one.


----------



## reveal (Jul 8, 2005)

Kae'Yoss said:
			
		

> No. This is simply a 3.5 DMG, probably with errata included, leader-bound and guilt-edged and all. There's nothing new in there.




Technically, it is a new product, even if it's just a rehash of an old one. Regardless, I hope this isn't it. I doubt it is because Monte said it had nothing to do with Wizards, so I'm still optimistic at this point.


----------



## Nightfall (Jul 8, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> Technically, it is a new product, even if it's just a rehash of an old one. Regardless, I hope this isn't it. I doubt it is because Monte said it had nothing to do with Wizards, so I'm still optimistic at this point.




Right. It's a Malhavoc product. Wizards didn't do crud for this.


----------



## reveal (Jul 8, 2005)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> Right. It's a Malhavoc product. Wizards didn't do crud for this.




You know Monte's sitting at his computer right now, with his finger on the mouse button and his cursor on *Reply *saying "I'll just give them a little hint; just one" and then Sue slaps him on the back of his head and says "What are you, an idiot?"


----------



## Nightfall (Jul 8, 2005)

*reminds him of some anime some where with a guy and a girl and the girl ALWAYS going "Baka!"* 

Baka, Baka, Baka!


----------



## BryonD (Jul 8, 2005)

Kae'Yoss said:
			
		

> No. This is simply a 3.5 DMG, probably with errata included, leader-bound and guilt-edged and all. There's nothing new in there.




It took Monte a year to personally skin all the cows.


----------



## SkeletonKey Ed (Jul 8, 2005)

Perhaps some sort of Eldritch campaign setting/world that encompasses all the "generic" material that Malhavoc has released so far.

Monte Cook's World of Eldritch Adventure or some-such?

Maybe they need a map or two.   

- Ed


----------



## Kaodi (Jul 9, 2005)

*Hmmm...*

I believe some of the most important tidbits have been that this product a) took several truck loads of time to develop, b) goes right to the heart of 3e, but will not be quite apparent at first, c) required a bucket load of stat block and d) is really cool, but will have to be seen first-hand to appreciate the full 20d6 of coolness.
Now, I do not profess to be a master of this reasoning-out business (yet, muahahaha...?), but I will start with a thought or two that I may add to later.

I think the last point may be the most revealing in terms of trying to intuit the type of product this is going to be. However cool it may sound, or how well it was written, it can only be fully understood once you see it, so it must have some of physical presentation that goes beyond the standard of d20, whether it be cards, miniatures, a board game or something entirely different. 

Another thing, which I don't quite remember the exact wording of, was whether it appealed to the core of 3e, the core or d20, or both... A few different interpretations of this could apply. One, if it is the core of d20, it may have to do with the system of resolution, or the way statistics are treated, or some other such rules based application. If it is the core of 3e, that could of been meant as the core of d20, or it could be viewed as the core goals behind the creation of 3e and the new edition of D&D...

Uh... give me some more time to think... God knows Monte has taken his sweet allocation of it!


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Small side note: Let me know if my rambling seems to you to be:

a) reduntant
b) stupid 
c) brilliant ( please vote for this one  )
d) useful
e) mediocre

Just a sort of gauge as to how I'm doing.


----------



## JediSoth (Jul 9, 2005)

I have #334 in my hands. It's............................Ptolus.

Full-color. 640 pages. Sweetness.

JediSoth


----------



## Nightfall (Jul 9, 2005)

Your kidding...Ptolus?! Oh well. Saves me a little cash then. I guess maybe in 2006, I'll have some Malhavoc stuff I REALLY want. Like Planescape!


----------



## Vigwyn the Unruly (Jul 9, 2005)

If it really is Ptolus, I for one think that it will be really cool. Monte is known as one of the best DMs out there, so his home campaign has to be worth a look.


----------



## Nightfall (Jul 9, 2005)

If I wanted someone's homebrew, I'd stick with Keith Baker.


----------



## Simplicity (Jul 9, 2005)

Ptolus.  Hmmmmm...
Well, it could be good or it could be no big deal.  The devil's in the details as far as campaign settings go.  Having run the Banewarrens, the setting is a little extreme for 
most of my tastes, but I can see the appeal.


----------



## Kaodi (Jul 9, 2005)

*Hmmm...*

Sorry, I just copy/pasted a reply to another thread here. I hope none of you saw it...


----------



## Nightfall (Jul 9, 2005)

Yeah well I know I didn't much care for the background stuff in Banewarrens.


----------



## EricNoah (Jul 9, 2005)

JediSoth said:
			
		

> I have #334 in my hands. It's............................Ptolus.
> 
> Full-color. 640 pages. Sweetness.
> 
> JediSoth




Neat.  I'll have to read up on it.  If nothing else it will have the benefit of years of playtesting.


----------



## Dav (Jul 9, 2005)

JediSoth said:
			
		

> I have #334 in my hands. It's............................Ptolus.



How does Ptolus go to the heart of D&D, 3rd edition or otherwise?


----------



## EricNoah (Jul 9, 2005)

Monte At Home said:
			
		

> It instead zeroes in on the heart of 3rd edition and the core rules. That, in fact, is the point of it, although it may not seem that way at first glance.




Not knowing much about the setting, was Ptolus developed around the time that you were working on 3E?


----------



## Nightfall (Jul 9, 2005)

Dav said:
			
		

> How does Ptolus go to the heart of D&D, 3rd edition or otherwise?




Well I think Monte used a lot of his house rules for 3.0. I could be wrong.


----------



## ecliptic (Jul 9, 2005)

Frankly I don't believe the guy who says its Ptolus.


----------



## Erik Mona (Jul 9, 2005)

I can't speak for Monte, but a TON of the core concepts, creatures, spells, etc. that eventually made their way into 3e were first tested in Monte's campaign. Whole portions of the Book of Vile Darkness, for example, first appeared on Monte's tabletop. I can't look at the kython section of that book without shuddering.

I'm really looking forward to this book. Monte is a great DM, and he's put a ton of work into a really compelling campaign setting.

And that's _before_ he started turning it into a product.

--Erik Mona
Editor-in-Chief
Dragon & Dungeon


----------



## BigFreekinGoblinoid (Jul 9, 2005)

Well, if Mona has "confirmed" it : Did Monte place Ptolus in the World of the Diamond Throne, or is set in a more generic setting?


----------



## Blood Jester (Jul 9, 2005)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> If I wanted someone's homebrew, I'd stick with Keith Baker.




I'd be happy with PC's world.


----------



## ColonelHardisson (Jul 9, 2005)

Since it does, indeed, appear that Erik Mona has confirmed the mystery product is Ptolus, my reaction is...umm, well, OK. I have to admit that this doesn't really pique my interest all that much. I'm sure it'll be a fine product, but I have so much setting material now as it is...


----------



## reveal (Jul 9, 2005)

ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> Since it does, indeed, appear that Erik Mona has confirmed the mystery product is Ptolus, my reaction is...umm, well, OK. I have to admit that this doesn't really pique my interest all that much. I'm sure it'll be a fine product, but I have so much setting material now as it is...




I agree. I'll look through it and look forward to hearing what it's like but I'm not going to rush out to buy it.


----------



## BryonD (Jul 9, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> I agree. I'll look through it and look forward to hearing what it's like but I'm not going to rush out to buy it.




What he said.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jul 9, 2005)

Hey there! 



			
				Garnfellow said:
			
		

> For a few years now I have been haunted by an old post from Ryan Dancey on GamingReport.com:
> 
> _Originally Posted by Ryan Dancey
> The other [product I would love to develop] would be the book I keep suggesting that WotC consider publishing: Core Book IV: Game Designer's Guide. The GDG would contain all the systems and mathematical analysis used to construct 3e, and explain how the system works at a low level, and how to add to it and extend it correctly. That book would be a guide to effective encounter, scenario, story and world design, all using the d20 System. *It would require tremendous R&D work to do things like figure out a quantifiable CR/EL system, among other monumental tasks.* The great thing about that book is that not only would it be a boon companion to the 80+% of DMs who write their own content, but it would be a huge step up for all the OGL/d20 designers who are working from the black box of the DMG._
> ...




I can think of one other.


----------



## Sleepy Voiced (Jul 9, 2005)

Well, we have a year before any rushing-out-and-buying can occur.  I have a feeling there is a lot more to this than a simple campaign setting.  640 pages? Over a year of dedicated development?  This sounds like an awful lot for a standard campaign setting.  I will take Monte at his word that the full impact of this product will have to be seen in person to be understood.


----------



## the black knight (Jul 9, 2005)

JediSoth said:
			
		

> I have #334 in my hands. It's............................Ptolus.
> 
> Full-color. 640 pages. Sweetness.
> 
> JediSoth





Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.


----------



## Greatwyrm (Jul 9, 2005)

Well, at least there are already some sneak peeks.  They've been up for a while, in fact.

http://www.malhavocpress.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?ptolus


----------



## Vocenoctum (Jul 9, 2005)

ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> Since it does, indeed, appear that Erik Mona has confirmed the mystery product is Ptolus, my reaction is...umm, well, OK. I have to admit that this doesn't really pique my interest all that much. I'm sure it'll be a fine product, but I have so much setting material now as it is...





I'm just not sure why the Uber Secretiveness was needed.

I do find it amusing that it escalated to the point fanboi's were thinking he was going to write Greyhawk or D&D fourth edition through Malhavok though.
People are funny.


----------



## A'koss (Jul 9, 2005)

Ptolus? 

Wow... I'm quite surprised actually. I'm guessing that it will be more that just a rulebook, but also a bunch of adventures keyed to the setting. Probably some tie-in products as well - minis, maps, etc.

I wish Monte all the best of luck with this, however it's not for me. I've looked at Ptolus before and I hate to say this but... it never struck me as all that unique. It could be any major city in the Forgotten Realms or Eberron. Hell, it's hard not to draw parallels between it and Waterdeep/Undermountain (Ptolus is a city with a huge dungeon underneath). It's high magic and embraces all the D&D conventions of bountiful monsters, fantasy races (inlcuding aasimar/tieflings/litorans), wizards and even guns other bits of technology (gears, printing presses, etc.) to a limited extent...

On that note, maybe that's exactly the demographic Monte is targetting - "Look, fits right in to your FR/Eberron game!"

A'koss.


----------



## romp (Jul 9, 2005)

at 640 pages it would quite extensive, and it is a complete campaign from beginning to end, if i read the malhavoc site correctly maybe that is what Monte meant by "getting at the heart of 3ed." I also imagine he has minis, etc. planned for it. His stature right now gives him the clout to do this kind of stuff, 

I am intrigued enough to look at it, which is more than I can say for Eberron (I finally broke down and bought the main book after reading Baker's novel). The pdf might be more my speed though, overcrowded gaming bookshelf is groaning with dead tree books.


----------



## Simplicity (Jul 9, 2005)

Ptolus always struck me as unique...  Giant freaking spire in the middle of the city.  
Invisible floating upside down pyramid magehall.  It's got plenty of interesting points 
to it.  It definitely feels more high magic than I would normally like.  And wheras in 
Eberron, magic found a technological/cultural place, in Ptolus magic still seemed reserved 
for the wizards.  

Of course, as I said...  It's hard to judge a setting based on tidbits scattered here and there.  A good setting book is like a good album.  The individual songs are great, sure, but they've also got to tie togther into a whole.  As Monte said, I think we'll have to wait until it's released before we actually see anything to get majorly excited about.

I'm just hoping for a Faneraider PrC.


----------



## Acid_crash (Jul 9, 2005)

What's Ptolus???  I'm clueless on this.

**I was also hoping for Planescape**


----------



## Simplicity (Jul 9, 2005)

Acid_crash said:
			
		

> What's Ptolus???  I'm clueless on this.
> 
> **I was also hoping for Planescape**




Follow the link...

http://www.malhavocpress.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?ptolus 

It's Monte's home campaign but it's appeared in various Malhavoc products.
It's kind of a D&D celeb campaign...  If you consider game designers celebs.


----------



## Wormwood (Jul 9, 2005)

This news makes me happy. In fact, happier than I thought I would be.

I've been slavering for Ptolus for _years. _I've found myself unsatisfied with the last couple of campaign settings I've bought.
_
SOLD!
_


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## Christoph the Magus (Jul 9, 2005)

Add me to the "big whoop" list.  I hope he sells a million copies, but I won't be getting it.  There are already plenty of settings on the market and I'm very happy with the run I'm running.  (Kalamar, FYI)


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## Monte At Home (Jul 9, 2005)

the black knight said:
			
		

> Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.




Yeah, you know, at this point, that would be my reaction too. 

I'm looking forward to the next couple of months where I can talk a lot more about this product and hopefully show that it's really not like anything that's been done in the game industry so far. There's a lot of info in the Dragon article, and there will be a LOT more in coming months at our website.



> Not knowing much about the setting, was Ptolus developed around the time that you were working on 3E?




Yes. Ptolus/Praemal (Praemal is the name of the world) was the very first 3E campaign. It helped shape the rules, and was shaped by them as they developed.


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## Vradna (Jul 9, 2005)

Homer said:
			
		

> Hmmm, you idea's intriguing to me and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter




I am interested in Ptolus.  I'd like to see it.

Though, for 640 pages (3/4 the size of the World's Largest Dungeon) we must be looking around $75USD?


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Jul 9, 2005)

Hmm, I'm intrigued.

I think 3.5 needs more settings.  It's been a while for everything but Eberron.  And the big E still seems a bit generic at present, maybe it'll grown into itself with a good big module.

But then again sounds like Ptolus will already have some of that.

Then again and again 640 pages is just dang impressive, and I'm wondering what it will actually look like/consist of.


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## Felon (Jul 9, 2005)

Monte's pretty up-front about the fact that he wants his D&D setting served up like one big over-the-top Star Wars cantina. That's not really for me. I don't want my gamers to feel like they're in a place that's too bizarre and inaccessable for them to really ever immerse themselves. 

And a 640-page book is absolutely the wrong way to go with a setting book. Really, setting designers gotta get it in their heads one of these days that it's all good and well to sell an ultra-detailed setting book for a DM to pore over, but the players who come to the table knowing nothing about the world need a primer that answers all their basic questions--in particular, "what's cool or fun about playing in this particular world"?


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## Arbiter of Wyrms (Jul 9, 2005)

Monte said:
			
		

> I will say the following quote is so true that it almost scares me, making me want to check the kitchen for hidden microphones:





			
				Me said:
			
		

> I really can't guess what he's got up his sleeve, but I think he's been playing this one close to the chest for a long time. I think that that's why he hired Mike Mearls in the first place. Mike is an excellent designer, and hyper-prolific to boot. His game sensabilities seem similar, or at least compatible with Monte's, so Monte and Sue were sitting around the kitchen table after a game one night and Monte said to Sue "I'd really like to design X. That'd be cool!" and so Sue asks
> "Why don't you?"
> "It would take forever. I wouldn't be able to write anything else for a year!"
> "So, don't write anything else for a year. The whole reason you left Wizards was to write what you wanted, right?"
> ...



I was delighted that I hit so close to the mark, and I promise that if there is surveillance equipment in Monte's kitchen, I didn't put it there (BTW Monte, Marley's been chewing on one of the low microphones; it makes a REALLY annoying noise on the recording and I'm worried that it could hurt her. I just thought you'd like to know.)







			
				JediSoth said:
			
		

> I have #334 in my hands. It's............................Ptolus.
> 
> Full-color. 640 pages. Sweetness.
> 
> JediSoth



I really didn't believe JediSoth.  I'm surprised.  Now that I think about it, though, I don't believe that there will be nothing more to it than a campaign setting.  I think that when Monte says that it goes right to the core of 3rd edition, he's saying something significant.  
In coming months, Monte-bashers will call this project self-aggrandizement.  I don't believe this.  I think that Monte will use Ptolus as a vehicle for something more - and I, for one, look forward to seeing what comes of it.


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Jul 9, 2005)

Felon said:
			
		

> Monte's pretty up-front about the fact that he wants his D&D setting served up like one big over-the-top Star Wars cantina. That's not really for me. I don't want my gamers to feel like they're in a place that's too bizarre and inaccessable for them to really ever immerse themselves in.




You had a hard time getting into the Star Wars Cantina scene??!?  

Man, that scene feels more like home than home does.  I do not recommend the American southwest to you, though admittedly blues and jazz are a lot harder to find than they used to be.

Western Swing, though, has made something of a comeback and you can still catch some Rock-a-billy.

A Red Elvises concert is about as Star Wars weird as you can get outside of a convention.

I would agree that primers are a necessity, but purely as a supplement.  An ultra detailed book at the least gives me a wealth of option to pick, choose, or ignore and at the most saves me a load of trouble.


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## Wild Gazebo (Jul 9, 2005)

I liked it better when it was a secret.


Though...it could be good.


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## Morte (Jul 9, 2005)

Ptolus. What's Ptolus? *looks it up* Ah.

640 pages. Hmm. Makes me think of the way the World's Largest Dungeon has been reviewed -- it seems it's plain easier to GM WLD than other off-the-shelf material. There's no campaign integration issue with stitching adventures together. The stat blocks are on the page you're already looking at when you find you need them. And so on. It appears to be a great boon for a busy person who's GMing because it's their turn, not because they like making up campaigns.

I'd kill for something like this for Traveller (Trav setting/adventures are right at the other end of the usability scale, as far as you can get). I almost took up D&D to run WLD so I wouldn't have to do 4-6 hours of prep for every session.

Now what if this Ptolus book took that and ran with it. What if it included setting, and adventure, and rules, all designed to work synergystically, all easy to use. And maps, and maybe minis or battle mats for the climactic fight or who knows what. If it amounted to "a new way to publish, buy and use the material" rather than especially new material. A partial solution to the "RPGs are twenty minutes of fun packed into four hours (with the GM doing another six hours in the background)" problem.

That's something you'd have to actually see and use to appreciate. It wouldn't be obvious from a product announcement.

Well, I can hope. Who knows, maybe in another ten years a Trav publisher would copy it...


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## JohnSnow (Jul 9, 2005)

I actually was speculating something of this nature on the Ryan Dancey "products other than rulebooks" thread.

I could easily see Monte using Ptolus as a vehicle to present an ultra-detailed gaming experience right out of the box. That's a hugely attractive proposition, however you feel about Ptolus itself.

If that's the case, it's a way of selling adventures in such a way that publishers can make money off them, and gamers can enjoy them. The computer gaming industry makes money selling consoles (gaming mechanics, if you will). They then make money selling toolkits of rules combined with interface and story (programs). That's an interesting paradigm for the RPG industry to consider emulating. To draw an analogy, if 3e is an Atari 2600, maybe Ptolus is "Combat." As to why Ptolus? Well...why not? Since it was Monte's campaign while 3e was in development, 3e was sorta designed for Ptolus. So if any setting can be viewed as a program for 3e, it's Ptolus.

If I'm right, and it succeeds, I predict we'll all be marking it as the moment that RPGs turned a corner.


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## DaveMage (Jul 9, 2005)

At 640 pages and FULL COLOR, $75 is highly doubtful (not that I'd mind).

$90 or $100 is my bet.

I'm actually intrigued by this.

I love settings, and at 640 pages for a high-magic *city* sounds pretty damn impressive.   (Especially in light of the fact that a mere 160 was just put into Waterdeep - supposedly one of the biggest cities in all D&D.)  Also, since Monte is apparently passionate about this setting, I'm sure the care will have been taken to make it as good as can be.

What's not to like?


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## ecliptic (Jul 9, 2005)

Chances are its 640 pages of the city and all surrounding lands. Probably even the whole world.


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## Kae'Yoss (Jul 9, 2005)

This actually sounds intriguing.


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## Gold Roger (Jul 9, 2005)

*Re*

This really makes sense to me and I may at least take a close look at it.

One thing is that i remember what monte said was the first goal when creating ptolus:
A setting that is completely adjustet to 3rd edition rules. That's where the "at the heart of 3rd edition" comment comes from and addresses the problem I've had with 3rd Edition for a long time: It makes no sense in most settings.

The second thing is that it was allready said that its not the content of the product, but the presentation that should be great and set new standarts. Thats interesting.


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## JediSoth (Jul 9, 2005)

> I really didn't believe JediSoth.




I guess I don't post enough to have established any sort of credibility. I can say for myself though, that I don't speculate much about upcoming products. I was always the type of person in school to never answer a question unless I was absolutely sure I was right (of course, sometimes I was still wrong). But hardly anyone here would know that about me.



> In coming months, Monte-bashers will call this project self-aggrandizement.




This strikes me as funny. It seems they would say that about anything he writes, because it's something he's interested in and that doesn't jive with what they're interested in. The kicker is: why in the world would he write, for his OWN company, about something he's not interested in?

I'm looking forward to Ptolus. I like campaign settings and city books, if nothing more than for ideas they provide me. And though I may get bashed for this, I like much of what Monte produces. Most of it goes well with the type of campaign that I run (not all of it though).

JediSoth


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## Erekose13 (Jul 9, 2005)

Rock on! Thanks JediSoth for the announcement.  Got any more copy from it that you want to share, maybe just a couple of highlights so as not to spoil the whole article.


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## reveal (Jul 9, 2005)

Monte At Home said:
			
		

> Yeah, you know, at this point, that would be my reaction too.
> 
> I'm looking forward to the next couple of months where I can talk a lot more about this product and hopefully show that it's really not like anything that's been done in the game industry so far. There's a lot of info in the Dragon article, and there will be a LOT more in coming months at our website.




At this point, I'm not terribly thrilled about it, as I've said before. However, I will be paying attention to it in the coming months and, you never know, it may turn out to be a "must have" product.


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## seankreynolds (Jul 9, 2005)

Felon said:
			
		

> Monte's pretty up-front about the fact that he wants his D&D setting served up like one big over-the-top Star Wars cantina. That's not really for me. I don't want my gamers to feel like they're in a place that's too bizarre and inaccessable for them to really ever immerse themselves.




I played in the Praemal/Ptolus campaign for four years, and I never felt that the world was too bizarre or inaccessible for me to immerse myself in it.


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## Ozmar (Jul 9, 2005)

JohnSnow said:
			
		

> I actually was speculating something of this nature on the Ryan Dancey "products other than rulebooks" thread.
> 
> I could easily see Monte using Ptolus as a vehicle to present an ultra-detailed gaming experience right out of the box. That's a hugely attractive proposition, however you feel about Ptolus itself.
> 
> ...




Jeez! I've got to be one of the biggest Monte fanboys out there (if buying and loving everything he writes qualifies for that status), but still, what is up with this, JohnSnow? We all know he's a genius, but I'm amazed at how much faith you put in him with this. You make it sound like he's developing the Second Coming of the RPG hobby. And based on what? A few months of obscure hints (Monte's a master of many things, including building anticipation) and a product announcement for a really big city book?

I don't intend this to be a rant or a put-down (and I apologize in advance if I come across that way), but I would like to caution us all against creating unreasonable expectations for this project. To do so risks disappointment on what may be an otherwise fine gaming product simply because it doesn't reform all your troublesome players and teach you how to metaphorically walk on water. I am not sure what to expect, and look forward to hearing more about it, but I definitely don't think we should expect (at this point) that it will remake all RPGs as we know them.

(Reserving the right to change my opinion as future details are revealed. 

Ozmar the Cautious Fanboy


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## Tolen Mar (Jul 9, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> At this point, I'm not terribly thrilled about it, as I've said before. However, I will be paying attention to it in the coming months and, you never know, it may turn out to be a "must have" product.




What he said.

On the other hand, I felt much the same way about Arcana Unearthed and it far exceeded my expectations when I finally got to read the book.

I like Monte's work, I use most of it.  But every once in a while, one comes out that just doesnt do anything for me.  I dont know much about Ptolus...so this really at the moment doesn't do much for me.  But Ill look at the previews as they come out and we'll see if he can't change my mind by next year.


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## GrayLinnorm (Jul 9, 2005)

If someone has already gotten this month's Dragon, could they PLEASE tell us what else is in it?


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## Len (Jul 9, 2005)

(I mis-posted, so I'll have to edit this into something relevant.)

It's good to see Ptolus coming out as a product, since Monte has put so much work into it over the years, but I don't think anyone in my group will be interested in "yet another campaign setting".

As for it being too bizarre, it doesn't seem any more bizarre than "normal" D&D or the Forgotten Realms or whatever. It's just different from most D&D settings. But if it was similar to other settings there would be absolutely no point in publishing it.


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## Selganor (Jul 9, 2005)

JediSoth said:
			
		

> I have #334 in my hands. It's............................Ptolus.
> 
> Full-color. 640 pages. Sweetness.
> 
> JediSoth



I am not through this thread, but I somehow thought it would be Ptolus at page 3-4 of the thread...

So... Any other mysteries I should try to "divine"?


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## Kae'Yoss (Jul 9, 2005)

I think this has great potential, for several reasons:

As has been stated, this setting was shaped directyl by 3rd edition rules (and the making thereof), and the rules were shaped in part by the setting.

It is created by one of the big desingers behind 3e, and many of the other big designers were playin in the campaign, which means that they've helped shaping it.

The campaign was not only created by one of the designers of 3e, it will also be published by said designer, who has his own company. This means that there is little outside influence. Look at the FR (my favourite Vanilla-D&D Setting): There is a debate about the current WotC FR and Ed Greenwoods "real" FR that has been going on longer than the blood war. These misunderstandings and unclearness will not occur here.


We will have to see how the whole thing will actually turn out (I understand that it will be quite some time before the release), but I say that it has great potential.


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## Morpheus (Jul 9, 2005)

I, for one, can't wait to see this. Actually playing it, however, will be a different story...


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## Monte At Home (Jul 9, 2005)

Felon said:
			
		

> Really, setting designers gotta get it in their heads one of these days that it's all good and well to sell an ultra-detailed setting book for a DM to pore over, but the players who come to the table knowing nothing about the world need a primer that answers all their basic questions--in particular, "what's cool or fun about playing in this particular world"?




Agree 100%. You could not be more correct. (In fact, I wrote an upcoming Dungeoncraft article about this very topic.)

Ptolus may or may not work, may or may not be any good, but I think it will be undeniable that it's not like other books. Like I posted earlier, I'm looking forward to the upcoming months.


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## Simplicity (Jul 9, 2005)

Well, one benefit would be that it's already a setting supported by a 3e adventure (The Banewarrens) and there's probably more to come...  WotC had almost dropped adventures entirely (except Ebberon, Kalamar, and the upcoming Sons of Gruumsh).


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## bolen (Jul 9, 2005)

Monte,

What will you have at gen con to promo Ptolus? 

I have another idea for you: Collect all your Dungeoncraft articles into a paperback  I have the magazines but would pay to get them in one place


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## JoeGKushner (Jul 9, 2005)

Well, I'm looking forward to it.

I hope that there's a nice big appendix to cover conversions to Arcana Evolved and that the product itself is not core Arcana Evolved with an appendix for D&D stats.

I look forward to seeing how he weaves the various elements of his event books into it and how he icorporates other elements, like the revisied psionics of Bruce Cordel into it.

Thumbs up.


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## Morte (Jul 9, 2005)

640 pages sounds like a pair of 320 page hardbacks. Does the article happen to mention anthing like that?

If so, does it mention what the split is? Overground + underground, gazetteer + everything else, setting + level 1-20 campaign, pink toothbrush + blue toothbrush?


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## LeaderDesslok (Jul 9, 2005)

Meh. I'll be playing Midnight until it runs dry. Sorry Monte, it just doesn't appeal to me right now. Of course, it is a year away, and I have been tempted to the Dark Side before...


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## JohnSnow (Jul 9, 2005)

Ozmar said:
			
		

> Jeez! I've got to be one of the biggest Monte fanboys out there (if buying and loving everything he writes qualifies for that status), but still, what is up with this, JohnSnow? We all know he's a genius, but I'm amazed at how much faith you put in him with this. You make it sound like he's developing the Second Coming of the RPG hobby. And based on what? A few months of obscure hints (Monte's a master of many things, including building anticipation) and a product announcement for a really big city book?
> 
> I don't intend this to be a rant or a put-down (and I apologize in advance if I come across that way), but I would like to caution us all against creating unreasonable expectations for this project.





Ah, I think you misunderstood (or didn't notice the heavy caveats in what I wrote). I'll clarify - I am NOT the biggest fan of Monte's work. I was intrigued enough by Arcana Unearthed to buy it, largely because of its new take on the magic system, but not to run it. I certainly didn't buy _Diamond Throne_ or _Arcana Evolved_. I am looking forward to _Iron Heroes_, but that's more faith in Mike Mearls. And it's based on Mike's comments that _Iron Heroes_ is his attempt to recreate the same feel that he had from the same early gaming experiences as me. That lends me faith - the same kind of faith I got when Keith Baker and I were swapping _Micronauts_ jokes and _Song of Ice and Fire_ speculations on the WotC boards before _Eberron_ came out. I was pretty sure that if we shared those two frames of reference, our tastes were pretty much in line. Not terribly scientific, but capturing a feel is a pretty nebulous thing.

So all that said, I do have faith that Monte is a good enough designer that I don't think he'd bother releasing his homebrew campaign world just to do it. That means he's got something else up his sleeve. I was then speculating wildly as to what might qualify as a "breakthrough" product. Obviously anything that solved the "20 minutes of fun in 4 hours" problem would qualify.

D&D used to be about adventures. That's what got most of us playing. But somewhere along the way, companies concluded that adventures didn't make money. So they stopped making them, and left it up to individual DMs who may or may not be very good at it. I think it's only mild hyperbole to say that someone showing the industry how to make money selling adventures that bring people into gaming would revitalize the RPG industry. Will Ptolus be the product to do that? I don't even know if that's Monte's intention for it.

But IF it did, it would sure be impressive, and unlike anything we've seen before. And that's all I was saying - IF it did.

Now we'll just have to see what it does.


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## Ozmar (Jul 9, 2005)

JohnSnow said:
			
		

> D&D used to be about adventures. That's what got most of us playing. But somewhere along the way, companies concluded that adventures didn't make money. So they stopped making them, and left it up to individual DMs who may or may not be very good at it. I think it's only mild hyperbole to say that someone showing the industry how to make money selling adventures that bring people into gaming would revitalize the RPG industry. Will Ptolus be the product to do that? I don't even know if that's Monte's intention for it.
> 
> But IF it did, it would sure be impressive, and unlike anything we've seen before. And that's all I was saying - IF it did.
> 
> Now we'll just have to see what it does.




Agreed! It is true that I get more enjoyment and satisfaction out of each monthly issue of Dungeon than out of any other D&D-related product that has been spawned these past few years. (Although I, too, am eagerly anticipating Iron Heroes.)

In that case I join you in hoping that Ptolus will walk on water. I do not expect it, but I hope that it will exceed my expectations.

Thanks!
Ozmar the Hopeful


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## Cergorach (Jul 10, 2005)

Platypus City... I think i mispelled something... Ptolus City (how the heck do you pronounce that?) sounds like an interesting city book. The invisible floating pyramid reminds me of the movie Immortel, weird as hell, but most impressive indeed.

If Monte keeps to the regular game plan, there's going to be a pdf. A pdf means copy/paste and that means you have all the tools to make your own gazeteer. I prefer making my own world guides for players (if we don't play in FR or are suddenly dumped in a completely new one), it allows me to keep the character in mind, or even append the world guide after the characters have been made (a knowledge relegion gives your more knowledge about the pantheon and temples, etc.).

Price: Arcana Evolved was 432 pages, hardcover, full color, for $50. I expect a 640 pagebook to cost $60-$65 Adding 208 pages to such an already large book don't drive up the printing costs that much.

Who's doing the art!?


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jul 10, 2005)

Been reading the Ptolus info on his site all day and I have to say, this sounds like a very good world. The only place I'd branch away from it, and it's a matter of taste, is that I prefer worlds on the upswing, rather than the down. The world of Ptolus is heading towards a dark age, it seems, and while that's heroic, I prefer worlds on the cusp of their Age of Enlightenment.


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## Herremann the Wise (Jul 10, 2005)

Hi Everyone,
I have not followed this thread in its entirety so please excuse me if this has been answered elsewhere.

I understand that the big malhavoc surprise is the City of Ptolus. However, when is it slated for release?

I have had the Banewarrens adventure pretty much since it came out and I have been so eager to run my group through it. We have 6 DMs out of 7 players so getting my game in and the characters to 6th has taken a little while  . However, in a fortnight's time, the group will be landing at the southern gates of Ptolus.

I have re-statted the thing to 3.5 (using the new DMGII stat layout), produced the dungeons on cardstock and balsa wood for our group's miniatures and sharpened the story up a little. I gather this Ptolus book won't be coming out for quite a while though.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jul 10, 2005)

Are the Banewarrens one of the dungeons below Ptolus? Hmmm.


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Jul 10, 2005)

I think it's coming out next year.


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## yangnome (Jul 10, 2005)

Gencon 2006 as far as I understand it.


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## GVDammerung (Jul 10, 2005)

I’ve been reading along with this thread. When people were speculating as to the BIG ANNOUNCEMENT, I jokingly said to myself, "Monte is going to announce that he is having himself bronzed, and Mona is going to then announce that he is sewing his head to the carpet." Turns out, I was closer to the truth than I imagined.

Ptolus. Big city. Big magic. Big Dungeon. Big deal. Whuppty ding dong doo. Pimped in the Dragon. Surprise. Surprise.

I have never been a "fan" of Monte’s designs in the sense that I do not think he is head and shoulders above other designers. He is a good designer, and there are a number of those, but not the best. His prose can too often be torpid and his designs overly cautious in their execution, IMO.

I am a fan of city campaigns going back to the original City State, Chaosium’s Thieves’ World (Sanctuary), maybe peaking with Lankhmar, City of Adventure by Ken Rolston, Doug Niles and Bruce Nesmith, continuing through Waterdeep, Carl Sargent’s Middenheim, Huzuz (Al-Qadim, City of Delights) and most recently Shadizar for the Conan RPG and Sharn (Eberron), plus a number of other, IMO, lesser lights. So, I have interest in Ptolus just because it is an urban setting, I think. 

I find it hard to immediately fathom, however, how Ptolus is going to outdo or join the above roll call of great urban campaign settings. It seems easier to imagine Monte is "bronzing" his home game and selling it as "the 3rd Edition campaign shaped by the rules, where the rules were shaped." Mona is, of course, just using the Dragon/Dungeon, again, to shamelessly pimp his favorites’ rides. Nepotism by any other name - "Downer" etc.

I will give Ptolus a chance. 

I will hope at its whopping size it will be mapped to the Nth degree - city street plan (every city), city roof plan (Sanctuary), city sewers (City State), block geomorphs (Lankhmar), important buildings (Sanctuary/City Books) etc.. 

Beyond taking the best of what has gone before and putting it at the service of a single urban environment, I will hope Monte has something new to say about urban campaign settings. 

I hope it is not a "world" setting, as I was completely unimpressed with the Diamond Throne world and would have no interest in a 640 page Diamond Throne for nearly $100 or so.

Time will tell.


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## Wraith Form (Jul 10, 2005)

Felon said:
			
		

> And a 640-page book is absolutely the wrong way to go with a setting book. Really, setting designers gotta get it in their heads one of these days that it's all good and well to sell an ultra-detailed setting book for a DM to pore over, but the players who come to the table knowing nothing about the world need a primer that answers all their basic questions--in particular, "what's cool or fun about playing in this particular world"?



Yeah, exactly.  I'd also like to echo the previous poster's "Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz".


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## Acid_crash (Jul 10, 2005)

I don't know Ptolus...but I like Monte's style...

so I'm going to buy Ptolus next year.


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## Razz (Jul 10, 2005)

What I'm more interested in is what's in Dragon #334 and could ya tell me what the previews for Dragon #335 is please? Thanks.


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## DaveMage (Jul 10, 2005)

Razz said:
			
		

> What I'm more interested in is what's in Dragon #334 and could ya tell me what the previews for Dragon #335 is please? Thanks.




I'm sure you'll see a thread on it soon...

There always seems to be one.


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## Matrix Sorcica (Jul 10, 2005)

GVDammerung said:
			
		

> I’ve been reading along with this thread. When people were speculating as to the BIG ANNOUNCEMENT, I jokingly said to myself, "Monte is going to announce that he is having himself bronzed, and Mona is going to then announce that he is sewing his head to the carpet." Turns out, I was closer to the truth than I imagined.
> 
> Ptolus. Big city. Big magic. Big Dungeon. Big deal. Whuppty ding dong doo. Pimped in the Dragon. Surprise. Surprise.
> 
> I have never been a "fan" of Monte’s designs in the sense that I do not think he is head and shoulders above other designers. He is a good designer, and there are a number of those, but not the best. His prose can too often be torpid and his designs overly cautious in their execution, IMO.




What he said.


The world is forever changed.

"Monte Cook presents Monte Cook's City of Ptolus by Monte Cook, the original Monte Cookian homebrew where the D&D 3rd edition rules, by Monte Cook, were created and tested, by Monte Cook, in a series of adventures by Monte Cook.


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## Waldorf (Jul 10, 2005)

If Monte is willing to sink a year of his life into this one (and I assume it will be 3.5), could we not take from that the notion that 4e is farther away than some of the doomsayers have suggested?


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## scadgrad (Jul 10, 2005)

Waldorf said:
			
		

> If Monte is willing to sink a year of his life into this one (and I assume it will be 3.5), could we not take from that the notion that 4e is farther away than some of the doomsayers have suggested?




You know, just because Monte's throwing a year of his time at it, that alone will probably give me enough reason to want to take a look at it.

I have to concur that my reaction is basically meh..., but Monte seems to prefer a Star Wars Cantina-like setting rather than anything that resembles OD&D or the Sword and Sorcery genre. I'm sure there are a lot of folks who like that, sort of dozens upon dozens of sentient races approach, and I admit that I enjoy that type of setting for Planescape myself, but if it's anything like what I've seen of Ptolus to date, I'll probably give it a miss.

I suspected that we'd see Ptolus in print at some point. It was almost inevetible that he'd want to publish it at some point. I mean, it's his baby after all isn't it?


----------



## Campbell (Jul 10, 2005)

Sorcica said:
			
		

> What he said.
> 
> 
> The world is forever changed.
> ...




You know I'm not particularly interested in this right now, but I can't understand the hate that's going on in this thread.


----------



## Wormwood (Jul 10, 2005)

I don't see so much hate as a level of rudeness reminiscent of other forums...not ENWorld.


----------



## Vocenoctum (Jul 11, 2005)

Campbell said:
			
		

> You know I'm not particularly interested in this right now, but I can't understand the hate that's going on in this thread.



It's just backlash, when the fan's scream too loudly, it draws out detractors in equal measure. For instance, in this thread Monte was compared to Christ, and people suggested his secret project was that Malhavoc was producing 4e.

So, on both sides, the issue is silly.


----------



## BryonD (Jul 11, 2005)

Obviously there is much to be revealed over a lot of time.

But, in the most general of information, would it be accurate to say that this is ultimately a campaign setting?  Or is Ptolus the setting being used as a vehicle for something far more than just another setting?


----------



## Masquerade (Jul 11, 2005)

I'm looking forward to Ptolus.  Reading about Monte's campaign on his website not only reignited my desire to DM, but I often used Ptolus as a reference point in designing my present homebrew setting.  I'll be buying the Ptolus book.  Even if I never use the setting in a game, it'll be a good read and my money will be supporting a brilliant designer.


----------



## ColonelHardisson (Jul 11, 2005)

Based on a couple of Monte's comments here on this thread about the product, my interest level has increased a bit. I was in full agreement with this comment by another poster:



			
				Felon said:
			
		

> Really, setting designers gotta get it in their heads one of these days that it's all good and well to sell an ultra-detailed setting book for a DM to pore over, but the players who come to the table knowing nothing about the world need a primer that answers all their basic questions--in particular, "what's cool or fun about playing in this particular world"?




Durn tootin.' Necromancer put out a player's guide to the Wilderlands in anticipation of the release of the massive boxed set that is coming, and _Lock and Load_ was put out for the Iron Kingdoms. Both do a fine job of being primers for their respective worlds, and could also be used by a DM to run a campaign with just the info in those books, if said DM preferred to have a very loose framework within which to set up his own campaign. This is also true of the old Greyhawk folio, which I still find to be a great inspiration. So when I hear about huge setting books, I have to say that I'm a bit put off. Ultra-detailed settings tend to discourage me from making the world my own - I know others enjoy that kind of detail, so I want to emphasize that I'm just expressing my own personal taste here. That's why my initial reaction was very noncommittal. But then, Monte replied to Felon thusly:



			
				Monte at Home said:
			
		

> Agree 100%. You could not be more correct. (In fact, I wrote an upcoming Dungeoncraft article about this very topic.)
> 
> Ptolus may or may not work, may or may not be any good, but I think it will be undeniable that it's not like other books. Like I posted earlier, I'm looking forward to the upcoming months.





Now this intrigued me. This kind of acknowledgment gives some insight into the product that I find encouraging. 

Now, I'll admit that I hate secretiveness about game upcoming products. In some cases, I understand - designers want to pique interest but not give away enough info that someone could take it and get the jump on a new concept. But it still bugs me to no end. I'll give Monte the benefit of the doubt on this one, though, simply for the stuff I quoted above. Well, that, and the fact that I think most of his stuff is great - _When the Sky Falls_ and _Requiem for a God_ are, in my opinion, two of the finest RPG books ever published. So I'm more interested in Ptolus, now.


----------



## Arbiter of Wyrms (Jul 11, 2005)

Arbiter of Wyrms said:
			
		

> In coming months, Monte-bashers will call this project self-aggrandizement.



And it begins. . .


----------



## AdmundfortGeographer (Jul 11, 2005)

ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> I'll give Monte the benefit of the doubt on this one, though, simply for the stuff I quoted above. Well, that, and the fact that I think most of his stuff is great - _When the Sky Falls_ and _Requiem for a God_ are, in my opinion, two of the finest RPG books ever published.



Aren't those written by Bruce Cordell though?


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Jul 11, 2005)

My copy of Dragon hasn't come yet, so I will try to reserve judgment, but I was expecting something more… Something close to ground breaking instead of a CS that I will probably never get to play in even if I buy the book. 

Oh well I guess I will save some money in the long run...


----------



## ColonelHardisson (Jul 11, 2005)

Eric Anondson said:
			
		

> Aren't those written by Bruce Cordell though?




When the Sky Falls was. My mistake. Substitute any number of books Monte actually wrote - say, any of the Eldritch Might books, or the Banewarrens. Or the DMG, for that matter.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jul 11, 2005)

scadgrad said:
			
		

> I suspected that we'd see Ptolus in print at some point. It was almost inevetible that he'd want to publish it at some point. I mean, it's his baby after all isn't it?



Any DM with his own publishing company would. Unlike most of those DMs' homebrews, though, Ptolus sounds interesting.


----------



## Mouseferatu (Jul 11, 2005)

See, to me, this is one of the best things the product could have been.

I don't really need more brand new rulebooks, and I'm not playing in the AE setting. However, I'd very much love to see Ptolus and environs examined in detail--even though I'll never likely use the campaign as is. It's the same reason I purchased the core books for Morningstar/Forgotten Realms/Codex of Erde/Codex Arcanis/Legends of Excalibur, and a whole mess of others. I don't tend to play campaign settings "out of the box." The only campaigns I've run straight out of the "world book" are Eberron, Ravenloft, Scarred Lands, and (to an extent) Planescape. (And I'd be happy to do so with Dawnforge). Most of the time, I buy campaign settings in order to mine them for ideas, plots, entire locations, NPCs, and inspiration for my _own_ ideas.

The fact that Ptolus and the 3E rules were built around one another suggests, to me, that the setting and its options should have a lot of good ideas, and--even more importantly--present at least some amount of insight into why things are as they are, and how they could instead have been.

Monte, for what it's worth, I'm looking forward to this more than anything Malhavoc's done in a good long while.

(Though personally, I'm still waiting for a _Book of Countless Doorways II_, as well. )


----------



## Arbiter of Wyrms (Jul 11, 2005)

I want to know what classes will be represented.  Will there be akashics? Magisters? Warlocks? Fighters?

How 'bout races? Litorians? Dwarves?


----------



## Dr. Strangemonkey (Jul 11, 2005)

Arbiter of Wyrms said:
			
		

> I want to know what classes will be represented.  Will there be akashics? Magisters? Warlocks? Fighters?
> 
> How 'bout races? Litorians? Dwarves?




If you look on the site you can find some of this information already, though who knows how it's been changed as the campaign morphed into a product.

The classes seem to be mostly standard DnD though with a very high level of flexibility.

Some of the AE races were originally a part of the campaign.  The Faen are the only ones I can remember playing an important role.


----------



## Shemeska (Jul 11, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> It's just backlash, when the fan's scream too loudly, it draws out detractors in equal measure. For instance, in this thread Monte was compared to Christ, and people suggested his secret project was that Malhavoc was producing 4e.
> 
> So, on both sides, the issue is silly.




No no, only if the secret project had been Planescape. As it's not, I will not be referring to Monte as Jesus Cook or Monte Christ. I'm ambivalent on the Ptolus thing. No opinion really till I've seen it.


----------



## Matrix Sorcica (Jul 11, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> It's just backlash, when the fan's scream too loudly, it draws out detractors in equal measure. For instance, in this thread Monte was compared to Christ, and people suggested his secret project was that Malhavoc was producing 4e.
> 
> So, on both sides, the issue is silly.




What he said


----------



## Tharen the Damned (Jul 11, 2005)

Knowing most of Montes products I don´t think that this will be the straight run-of-the-mill campaign setting.
The campaign and the city are both solid stuff (if you like high end high fantasy), but Monte won´t announce this as "something never done before".
So I think we can expect a lot more than just setting and adventure stuff.

I reserve my praise or bashing until I know more of what exactly "Ptolus" will be.


----------



## WayneLigon (Jul 11, 2005)

Thank goodness. I've been hoping we'd see Ptolus in print for years, since reading the wonderful campaign logs on Monte's website and thinking 'this, this is what every D&D campaign should aspire to'.


----------



## Driddle (Jul 11, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> I'm just not sure why the Uber Secretiveness was needed. ...
> 
> People are funny.




Promotional reasons. They know how important it is to keep a low-level buzz going ahead of a new product release.

Marketing takes advantage of the fact that people are inherently funny that way.


----------



## Numion (Jul 11, 2005)

Sorcica said:
			
		

> What he said.
> 
> 
> The world is forever changed.
> ...




I wonder myself why a large portion of gamers are so against business practises that are widely accepted outside gaming circles, ie in ordinary life. Monte is one of the few designers that have name recognition, so he uses it - why is it so difficult for some gamers to accept? Whats so bad about it? 

Give the man a benefit of the doubt. Monte's ego isnt _that_ big. He even said that the book might or might not be any good - oh the nerve! Just wait and see. Maybe the book really is something never done before.


----------



## AdmundfortGeographer (Jul 11, 2005)

Numion said:
			
		

> I wonder myself why a large portion of gamers are so against business practises that are widely accepted outside gaming circles, ie in ordinary life.



Because gamers aren't ordinary. Some even begrudge ordinary folks their ordinariness.


----------



## Snotlord (Jul 11, 2005)

Ptolus? Kewl. I hope it uses D&D rules, not the AE variant. If it does, I'm likely to buy it.


----------



## Kanegrundar (Jul 11, 2005)

Waldorf said:
			
		

> If Monte is willing to sink a year of his life into this one (and I assume it will be 3.5), could we not take from that the notion that 4e is farther away than some of the doomsayers have suggested?



 There's a discussion in the publisher's forum where Mongoose Matt was alluding that 4E may be coming in '06.  Monte piped in and said to MM that he would take that bet.  It all depends on who you want to believe.  My money is with Monte, since he's still very close with many of the current WotC designers, many of whom play in his home campaigns.  

Back on track.  I'm looking forward to the Ptolus CS.  I've read Monte's campaign diaries for a long time now, and even though I doubt I'll ever play a straight Ptolus campaign it will be cool to see it fully fleshed out.

Kane


----------



## Matrix Sorcica (Jul 11, 2005)

Numion said:
			
		

> I wonder myself why a large portion of gamers are so against business practises that are widely accepted outside gaming circles, ie in ordinary life. Monte is one of the few designers that have name recognition, so he uses it - why is it so difficult for some gamers to accept? Whats so bad about it?
> 
> Give the man a benefit of the doubt. Monte's ego isnt _that_ big. He even said that the book might or might not be any good - oh the nerve! Just wait and see. Maybe the book really is something never done before.




For me it's partly because because mr. Cook IMO, after he left WotC, was very busy telling everyone that 3rd Ed. could have been so much better if his hands hadn't been tied, how he would change things, how a better CR system is needed, how spells should be nerfed etc. This is simplified, but still. A lot of washing hands off his own work.
The same way, he knew that 3.5 was planned from the beginning, the game was designed that way, more or less. And Monte didn't care a great deal for the changes made in 3.5
So instead, he 'evolves' his own Arcana Unearthed. Was that a plan from the start like 3.5?

Secondly, I'm just not that impressed with his products.
But you're absolutely right, I should and will give the man the benefit of the doubt. The book _might_ just be exceptionel.
Guess I just expected more from a 'big announcement' than the print form of Monte's homebrew, which has been more or less available for years already.


----------



## Desdichado (Jul 11, 2005)

Sorcica said:
			
		

> What he said



Uh, what he said was that you were being silly, and were nothing but a "basher."


----------



## Nikosandros (Jul 11, 2005)

No one with the Dragon issue willing to post more details?

I think my copy will arrive after I leave Atlanta for about a month, so it will be a while before I can read it....


----------



## eris404 (Jul 11, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> 5. Monte Cook Presents: Does It Matter? You Know You'll Buy It.




I'm was just going through this thread and this post made me laugh so hard that I had to reply. I resemble that remark.    Thanks for the laugh!


----------



## eris404 (Jul 11, 2005)

Prince of Happiness said:
			
		

> Arcana DEVO-lved, with featuring new feats such as: Uncontrollable Urge, and Whip It; PC races such as Mongoloids, Beautiful Mutants, and Spudboys; and new prestige classes such as Smart Patroller! Are you through being cool and wish to dare the Gates of Steel?




Second best post on this thread.


----------



## Matrix Sorcica (Jul 11, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> Uh, what he said was that you were being silly, and were nothing but a "basher."




No, what he said was that raving fan boys would provoke a reaction in the opposite direction, and that both sides should cool down.

So let's do that.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Jul 11, 2005)

Sorcica said:
			
		

> For me it's partly because because mr. Cook IMO, after he left WotC, was very busy telling everyone that 3rd Ed. could have been so much better if his hands hadn't been tied, how he would change things, how a better CR system is needed, how spells should be nerfed etc. This is simplified, but still. A lot of washing hands off his own work.
> The same way, he knew that 3.5 was planned from the beginning, the game was designed that way, more or less. And Monte didn't care a great deal for the changes made in 3.5
> So instead, he 'evolves' his own Arcana Unearthed. Was that a plan from the start like 3.5?



A good question... 

It seems at least as if he was never entirely content with Arcana Unearthed (otherwise he wouldn´t have done AE), and one might wonder why - but maybe he had to face the fact that he had to put something out to feed his family (and wouldn´t be able to include all material he thought of within the limits of his small company), and so he did put it out. (And it´s not as if AU stank - it was great, AE just enhances it)
But comparing AE and AU (+ Diamond Throne) to D&D 3.5 and D&D 3.0, I think AE gave me more material. 



> Secondly, I'm just not that impressed with his products.
> But you're absolutely right, I should and will give the man the benefit of the doubt. The book _might_ just be exceptionel.
> Guess I just expected more from a 'big announcement' than the print form of Monte's homebrew, which has been more or less available for years already.



What is available from his homebrew is only a "story hour", not the setting. Except for Banewarrens, I think there is nothing available detailing much about Ptolus, and Banewarrens really concentrate on exactly that, the Banewarrens.


----------



## MulhorandSage (Jul 11, 2005)

Essentially the industry needs two kinds of products to grow.

The first kind is similar to what Ryan Dancy was talking about recently; find a niche that fills a GM's need (particularly if they don't realize they need it until they hear about the book) and fill it. The bottom line is that being a GM is hard, and we need products that make it easier to GM and we need products that produce better games.

The second kind is produced by someone with enormous talent who's been told to go crazy, and given the production values to back up their vision. This doesn't always produce great games, but it often produces interesting work (eg. Everway). Repeat this process enough times, and eventually someone will produce something that's a quantum leap above the hobby (as, say Garfield did with Magic: The Gathering for card games). Ptolus strikes me as this kind of book, so I have my hopes up.


----------



## Waylander the Slayer (Jul 11, 2005)

I think it is going to be an "adventure path" from the playtest of 3e which highlights several of the "cool" aspects of 3e via Plotus.


----------



## JoeGKushner (Jul 11, 2005)

If it is 640 pages with a $70 price tag, I'll be interested to see how it, and Shackled City, sell. I'm not saying it's going to be too epxensive for the content, but as I've noted on RPG.net, it may be too expensive for casual purchase.

Heck, that's one of the reasons I buy so many miniatures these days. Price point. I don't carry a lot of cash on my person, so if it's past the $25-$30 dollar mark, I'll have to either come back, or buy minis.

I love minis.


----------



## Staffan (Jul 11, 2005)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> What is available from his homebrew is only a "story hour", not the setting. Except for Banewarrens, I think there is nothing available detailing much about Ptolus, and Banewarrens really concentrate on exactly that, the Banewarrens.



The earliest Ptolus articles are an overview of the setting. Nothing very detailed, but still an overview of the city itself and the world around it.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jul 11, 2005)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> It seems at least as if he was never entirely content with Arcana Unearthed (otherwise he wouldn´t have done AE), and one might wonder why - but maybe he had to face the fact that he had to put something out to feed his family (and wouldn´t be able to include all material he thought of within the limits of his small company), and so he did put it out.



On a forum allegedly full of creative people, there sure are a lot of posters who don't seem to understand the creative process.

Never being satisfied with something you worked on isn't a sign of a sellout just putting out stuff to "feed his family," it's a sign that they're deeply involved in the process and have higher expectations of the work than they can necessarily achieve. This isn't a bad thing, unless we want to decide that William Shakespeare -- who made numerous revisions to his plays up until his retirement and in some cases beyond -- and many of the greatest artists of the Italian Renaissance, who often viewed their masterpieces as incomplete and imperfect, as hacks.

In contrast, if there's ever a creative person who views their work as perfect, and not just "I had to eventually stop, even though I really wish I had another 10 years to fiddle with it," I think _those_ people are the folks just doing it for the paycheck, and no other reason.


----------



## Monte At Home (Jul 11, 2005)

Sorcica said:
			
		

> For me it's partly because because mr. Cook IMO, after he left WotC, was very busy telling everyone that 3rd Ed. could have been so much better if his hands hadn't been tied, how he would change things, how a better CR system is needed, how spells should be nerfed etc.




It was certainly never my intention to do that. My hands were not tied. In fact, I wrote about it  being just the opposite way back when, assuming that my hands would be tied, but in fact we were given far more freedom to make changes than I ever thought possible. In a way, it scared me--I expected that some of the "old guard" would be there to put the kibosh on some wacky idea I might put forth. A safety net, so to speak. I can remember, for example, saying that I thought we should add the barbarian back in, expecting Skip to explain why we couldn't do that. Instead, he said, "good idea." Right then and there, I saw that the sky really was the limit, in a way, and I had to learn to self edit rather than count on someone else to reel me in. It made me a better designer.

I certainly have, however, talked about things that we could have done better. Harm and blade barrier, for example, weren't thought completely through enough. Not tested enough. There's no place, however, that I could shift the blame to for things like that, even if I wanted to. Things like that were our fault, many specifically my fault, and not the fault of someone tying our hands (and both those spells were fixed nicely in 3.5). The CR system does need some work, but usually I find myself defending it, not attacking it. Perhaps you're thinking of someone else on that one?



			
				Sorcica said:
			
		

> The same way, he knew that 3.5 was planned from the beginning, the game was designed that way, more or less. And Monte didn't care a great deal for the changes made in 3.5
> So instead, he 'evolves' his own Arcana Unearthed. Was that a plan from the start like 3.5?




3.5 was planned from the beginning, but not by the designers. By the people managing the business. In fact, I don't believe I'm speaking out of turn when I say that Skip, Jonathan and I were a bit put off by the idea--maybe even a little offended. If you think about it, how could we not be, after working on something for almost three years, doing our best to make the best game we could, and then at the end be told that people were already planning on updating the material before it was even released? But that wasn't our call. Maybe that's what you're referring to when I talked about our hands being tied. I can't think of any writer or designer that would purposefully not put his all into a project specifically so that it can be revised later. (And for what it's worth, I still stand firmly behind AU, and I'm very happy with it. Most of the AE changes are format changes, not content changes, or just brand new stuff.) Similarly, AU/AE doesn't exist because of any kind of disatisfaction with D&D on my part. I love D&D. I'm back up to playing twice a week now (for the last two years, it had only been once a week).

I apologize for the tangent. Mostly, I just wanted to make it clear how very, very proud and pleased I am of D&D 3E. I don't know when I did, but if I have ever given the impression otherwise, I apologize (mostly, that apology would go out to Jonathan and Skip). To bring it back to the topic at hand, in many ways, Ptolus is a kind of love letter to the game that has occupied my creative energy since I was 10 years old.


Edit: Added link.


----------



## romp (Jul 11, 2005)

Nikosandros said:
			
		

> No one with the Dragon issue willing to post more details?
> 
> I think my copy will arrive after I leave Atlanta for about a month, so it will be a while before I can read it....




My Dragon just came in the mail today... Ptolus has about a half page write up in the previews section, Nice preview of the cover, decent art and logo, 640 pages, full color, just focusing on the city (not the world around it), with detailed history, groups vying for power, etc. included are a double sided map sheet, two dozen handouts, and three bound in cloth bookmarks, The rest of the article is a lot of fluff repeating what has already been said here (long running campaign, lots of top people in the biz participate, early testbed for 3ed, that kind of stuff) 

This might actually be a great product, since the whole city is a mash-up like the cantina bar scene, you have everything in one place, hmmmm I am actually liking this one, despite the obviously high price point, especially how it "has been shaped around the rules, rather than forcing the rules to bend to fit the setting."


----------



## romp (Jul 11, 2005)

Thotas said:
			
		

> I must be the only one, but ... I'm glad it's not Planescape.




You are not the only one, sigh, was Beyond Countless Doorways that bad?


----------



## d20Dwarf (Jul 12, 2005)

Monte At Home said:
			
		

> I can't think of any writer or designer that would purposefully not put his all into a project specifically so that it can be revised later.




Did the 3e design team believe that they had produced a 100% errata-free One Game that would be the end-all-be-all of the D&D/RPG experience?


----------



## BryonD (Jul 12, 2005)

d20Dwarf said:
			
		

> Did the 3e design team believe that they had produced a 100% errata-free One Game that would be the end-all-be-all of the D&D/RPG experience?




Do you believe that is a fair question?

I'm a big fan of what happened with 3.5.
But the results of 3.5 are still the credit of the 3E team.
I know there are various conspiracy theories and pet peeves about this change or that, but in the end 3.5 is just 3E plus thousands of hours of real play play-testing.  Not everyone has to like every change for that to be ultimately a true statement.

But even with my support of 3.5, it only seems completely reasonable that someone wouldn't be thrilled to know that their product was planned to be re-tooled before it was tooled.  (Even if it is a reasonable plan from both a business and game evolution POV)


----------



## ColonelHardisson (Jul 12, 2005)

romp said:
			
		

> You are not the only one, sigh, was Beyond Countless Doorways that bad?




No, it was actually pretty cool. Maybe those who disliked it were expecting Planescape. I was hoping for anything _but_ Planescape, and so was _very_ pleased with "Doorways."


----------



## d20Dwarf (Jul 12, 2005)

BryonD said:
			
		

> Do you believe that is a fair question?
> 
> I'm a big fan of what happened with 3.5.
> But the results of 3.5 are still the credit of the 3E team.
> ...




A lot of people would be thrilled to work on a game with that kind of support structure, actually. A lot of people that aren't 100% perfect in every way, that is.  I've not had the pleasure of working on a game with the kind of development time and resources devoted to it that Monte has...he's one of a handful in the history of the industry...and I'd truly like to know if he thinks that given years of development if he thinks that he can put out a perfect game, because that must be a nice feeling. 

Yes, it's a fair question.


----------



## BryonD (Jul 12, 2005)

d20Dwarf said:
			
		

> A lot of people would be thrilled to work on a game with that kind of support structure, actually. A lot of people that aren't 100% perfect in every way, that is.  I've not had the pleasure of working on a game with the kind of development time and resources devoted to it that Monte has...he's one of a handful in the history of the industry...and I'd truly like to know if he thinks that given years of development if he thinks that he can put out a perfect game, because that must be a nice feeling.




Sure, I agree.  And I'd wager that Monte would as well.  
But none of that comes close to bridging the logic gap between not being thrilled to know that a re-work is planned before the results of the first working are available to even pass judgement on and claiming anything remotely close to perfection.



> Yes, it's a fair question.



Well, I'd say that is an assessment that can only be reached from a safely distant perspective.
(And yes, I know you do design)


----------



## d20Dwarf (Jul 12, 2005)

BryonD said:
			
		

> Sure, I agree. And I'd wager that Monte would as well.
> But none of that comes close to bridging the logic gap between not being thrilled to know that a re-work is planned before the results of the first working are available to even pass judgement on and claiming anything remotely close to perfection.




Well, what I"m saying is that unless you know you are turning out the perfect game, then how could you be offended at the idea that you'd be able to go back and fix your mistakes and make an even better game? That's what I mean. When I heard Midnight was going to a fully revised 2nd edition, I wasn't upset or offended, I was thrilled! I *had* to get back and work on it so I could fix what needed fixing, and the game is better for the changes and additions that were made after a couple of years of feedback and play. I'm happy there's now a better game on the market.

I wouldn't have asked had I not perceived that Monte thought D&D was as good as it could be and wouldn't need any updating. And then about AU, he stated that he's perfectly happy with it and didn't feel the need to make many content changes. So his contention that he was offended by the plan to update, followed by his saying that AU needed very little in the way of content updating, made me think that he is saying he's capable of making the perfect game the first time around. I'm only asking if that's the correct assessment, I'm not assailing him, I'm as perplexed by his statement as he is the idea that someone could put 100% into something and not have it turn out perfect.

If it's possible to make the perfect game on the first try every time, then obviously I need to raise my bar a little higher.  (Not that anyone I work for will ever give me that much development time .)


----------



## Banshee16 (Jul 12, 2005)

d20Dwarf said:
			
		

> Did the 3e design team believe that they had produced a 100% errata-free One Game that would be the end-all-be-all of the D&D/RPG experience?




I'm sure that there were things that were "almost there" but not quite the way they wanted them.  But at some point, you've got to have "feature lock" or you'll be in development forever.

As a consumer, I'd really have preferred that WotC not have tinkered with things, because now we have the abomination that is 3.5, rather than 3.0. 

Banshee


----------



## Stone Dog (Jul 12, 2005)

Shemeska said:
			
		

> I'm ambivalent on the Ptolus thing. No opinion really till I've seen it.



 Because I am just tired enough that I can't let something go...



> Ambivalent- 1 : having simultaneous and contradictory attitudes or feelings (as attraction and repulsion) toward an object, person, or action



 So, conflicting opinions, not none.  Sorry about that.  Insomnia puts weird obsessions into my head sometimes.  Please, continue.


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## Dragonblade (Jul 12, 2005)

Banshee16 said:
			
		

> As a consumer, I'd really have preferred that WotC not have tinkered with things, because now we have the abomination that is 3.5, rather than 3.0.
> 
> Banshee




Why? I consider 3.5 the best incarnation of the rules ever. And I'm totally stoked for Ptolus. To be honest, AU/AE never really interested me. I always wanted something from Monte based around standard 3.5 rules. Now, I get a full on badass campaign setting that fully embraces the 3rd edition rules. Thats awesome!


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## d20Dwarf (Jul 12, 2005)

Dragonblade said:
			
		

> Why? I consider 3.5 the best incarnation of the rules ever. And I'm totally stoked for Ptolus. To be honest, AU/AE never really interested me. I always wanted something from Monte based around standard 3.5 rules. Now, I get a full on badass campaign setting that fully embraces the 3rd edition rules. Thats awesome!




On these I agree completely.


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## Ketjak (Jul 12, 2005)

*Aside: Monte's Site?*

I used to visit www.montecook.com all the time - more frequently than ENWorld for a time. Since the top-level page turned into a huge graphic (loads fast on broadband, but the UI issues remain), I've visited fewer than ten times. Reasons:

Much of my web surfing is done on a Treo 600 wireless PDA. Monte's graphic is illegible on that screen, and I have no idea if an image map works on the Blazer browser. 

UI is less usable: The graphic is a cover analog in a digitial medium that requires no cover. Most of the graphic is inert non-clickable space. On a web page that's silly. 

UI interferes with accessing information: To find out if there is new content, I have to click on EVERY BUTTON. In the past, Monte's weekly message summarized what was new and provided a link to it. I could surf the top level, see if there was anything new, and if not click out to the forums. Now, though, it's an effort - an admittedly small one, but good UI design removes barriers, it doesn't introduce them.

If Monte's reading, please note I'm only hoping to access your articles more frequently. They're not even posted on ENWorld regularly, which leads me to believe I'm not the only one who finds it more difficult to tell when your site is updated. I like reading your work, and I'm sad that I can't do it easily.


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## Arbiter of Wyrms (Jul 12, 2005)

Stone Dog said:
			
		

> Because I am just tired enough that I can't let something go...



I was right there with you, but had been able to hold the impulse in check.


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## Arbiter of Wyrms (Jul 12, 2005)

Ketjak said:
			
		

> I used to visit www.montecook.com all the time -



Me too.  The site is prettier than it used to be, but I never went there for the flash, but always for the content.  I still go there at least once a week, but I wouldn't be heartbroken if the site went back to the way it was.

Oh well.  I least I got Dragon 334 and, now, Ptolus to (impatiently) await.


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## Monte At Home (Jul 12, 2005)

d20Dwarf said:
			
		

> Well, what I"m saying is that unless you know you are turning out the perfect game, then how could you be offended at the idea that you'd be able to go back and fix your mistakes and make an even better game? That's what I mean. When I heard Midnight was going to a fully revised 2nd edition, I wasn't upset or offended, I was thrilled!




I was talking about was honest human emotion, not intellectual analysis. Of course we realized that there would be mistakes in our work, and that there would be further additions and editions to the game. There's a huge difference between knowing intellectually that there will be further development on your work, and a business manager looking you in the eye and telling you that he's planning on revising something you've been working on for 3 years and aren't even quite finished yet. Just like there's a big difference between realizing that our work wasn't going to be perfect and actual planned obselescence (which is what the post I was initially addressing was talking about).

We knew from day 1, of course, that there would be a 4th edition D&D. Probably about a year into 3E development, I started keeping a file called "4th edition," that contained ideas for things that could be done with the rules, but were too drastic a change from 2nd edition. Many were the next logical step for something we did for 3E, but would have been inappropriate since the audience wouldn't have seen the middle step. In other words, it would have been like going from 2E to 4E. We, of course, had no idea when 4E would come along--that wasn't really the point. The point was that the rules were a continually evolving process. 

But even that level of planning aside, I'm fairly confident that I can speak for everyone on the team when I say that none of us thought what we did was perfect. (Does this really need be said? I've never met a writer or designer who thought their work was perfect. Well, OK, one.) We were making little changes right up to the last minute, and even at one minute after the last minute we were finding things wrong that we wish we could have fixed. Later on, we worked together to develop the errata lists. There were no illusions of perfection.

As a designer, my outlook has always been to be ambitious enough to strive for perfection, but not to be so arrogant (or naive) as to ever think you achieved it.


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## Mouseferatu (Jul 12, 2005)

Monte At Home said:
			
		

> I've never met a writer or designer who thought their work was perfect. Well, OK, one.




I've met a few.

They tend to suck.


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## Monte At Home (Jul 12, 2005)

Ketjak said:
			
		

> UI is less usable: The graphic is a cover analog in a digitial medium that requires no cover. Most of the graphic is inert non-clickable space. On a web page that's silly.




Fair enough. Go to www.malhavocpress.com rather than montecook.com and you'll bypass the splash page and get right to the meat of the site.



> UI interferes with accessing information: To find out if there is new content, I have to click on EVERY BUTTON. In the past, Monte's weekly message summarized what was new and provided a link to it. I could surf the top level, see if there was anything new, and if not click out to the forums. Now, though, it's an effort - an admittedly small one, but good UI design removes barriers, it doesn't introduce them.




Agreed. That's why you can--if you use the splash page--click on the what's new button. However, I also still do the weekly message with links to all the new stuff just like before on the Malhavoc Press page, reached either by the Malhavoc Press button or the URL I mentioned.

Thanks for caring enough to provide the feedback, though. I do hope you come to the site.

Monte


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## Michael Tree (Jul 12, 2005)

Monte At Home said:
			
		

> Probably about a year into 3E development, I started keeping a file called "4th edition," that contained ideas for things that could be done with the rules, but were too drastic a change from 2nd edition. Many were the next logical step for something we did for 3E, but would have been inappropriate since the audience wouldn't have seen the middle step.



Out of curiosity, are those files still at WotC, or are they something you took with you when you left.  Do you think they'll be considered by the designers of 4e?

Could you give us an idea of the sorts of things you came up with as the "next step."  Were some of those ideas incorporated into AU/AE?


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## Matrix Sorcica (Jul 12, 2005)

Monte At Home said:
			
		

> >snip<
> 
> I apologize for the tangent. Mostly, I just wanted to make it clear how very, very proud and pleased I am of D&D 3E. I don't know when I did, but if I have ever given the impression otherwise, I apologize (mostly, that apology would go out to Jonathan and Skip). To bring it back to the topic at hand, in many ways, Ptolus is a kind of love letter to the game that has occupied my creative energy since I was 10 years old.




No apology needed (on my behalf anyway   )
It's good to have the air cleaned of misunderstandings, no matter who's in the wrong. Seems like in this case, I was in the wrong.   

Still not that thrilled by Ptolus. But, apparently it will be more than just a city setting, so I haven't given up hope.


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## BiggusGeekus (Jul 12, 2005)

The cover looks sweet!


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## Thornir Alekeg (Jul 12, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> It's just backlash, when the fan's scream too loudly, it draws out detractors in equal measure. For instance, in this thread Monte was compared to Christ, and people suggested his secret project was that Malhavoc was producing 4e.
> 
> So, on both sides, the issue is silly.




As the person who first mentioned 4e in this thread, I would like to clarify that when I did so, it was a tounge-in-cheek reference to all the recent 4e threads and the thread about Mattel buying Hasbro rumor and the rampant speculation that started.  

I like much of Monte's work and were I in the market for a new campaign setting, I would certainly check out Ptolus, but I would stop short of saying he is a god-figure in the gaming world and must be excited by anything he writes.  

In the end he succeeded in one thing - building hype for one of his projects, something I would say he is very good at.  There is nothing wrong with that, as long as it is understood that until the finished product is out and measured against what exists, that is all it is, hype, and the backlash if the product does not live up to expectations is often greater than the hype.


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## hexgrid (Jul 12, 2005)

*pronunciation?*

Is that a silent "t" or a silent "p"? Or are they both voiced?


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## d20Dwarf (Jul 12, 2005)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> I've met a few.
> 
> They tend to suck.




Dammit Ari, that was a long time ago, it was college...


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Jul 12, 2005)

d20Dwarf said:
			
		

> Dammit Ari, that was a long time ago, it was college...




Quoted so you can't weasel out and edit the post.


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## d20Dwarf (Jul 12, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Quoted so you can't weasel out and edit the post.




Damn you! I just came back to edit it. 

Interestingly, Ari and I *did* go to college together, and only recently met back up through our mutual participation in the game industry.


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## sjmiller (Jul 12, 2005)

Thotas said:
			
		

> I must be the only one, but ... I'm glad it's not Planescape.



I am just getting around to reading this thread, so this is probably not the most timely of responses.  However, you are not the only one who is glad it is not Planescape.  I never really enjoyed that setting.  Okay, that's not true.  I never really understood why people were so rabid about it.


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## Desdichado (Jul 12, 2005)

Stone Dog said:
			
		

> Because I am just tired enough that I can't let something go...
> 
> So, conflicting opinions, not none.  Sorry about that.  Insomnia puts weird obsessions into my head sometimes.  Please, continue.



Uh, 


> 2.  Characterized by uncertainty or indecisiveness as to which course to follow.



Read the _whole_ definition before you take someone to task for not getting it right.


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## sjmiller (Jul 12, 2005)

I must say that I do not greet the announcement with the heady enthusiasm of many here, nor do I greet it with the scorn of a good number of others.  I see the announcement and shrug in indifference.  Personally, I don't *need* another campaign setting.  As it is I do not use any of the available ones!  There are a great many detailed, different, and quite usable campaign settings out there.  I happen to prefer my own setting.  With my own campaign setting I know every single detail about it, often times without having to look them up.  I know what is where, who did what to whom, and I know that my players are enjoying it.

Unless there is something so overwhelmingly useful presented in the book that I cannot do without it, I think I will be passing on this.  Perhaps my stand on this product will change in the year before publication, but it probably will not.  I wish Monte the best of luck, and I hope the book sells well for him.  If the setting is as good as some of his other books, I am sure I will not hesitate to recommend it to those who are in need of such.  I fear, however, that I am not the target audience of this work.


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## KB9JMQ (Jul 12, 2005)

Well I don't know if I will use it as is when it comes out, but I really like Monte's works as a resource for mining so I will probably get it for that alone.


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## Desdichado (Jul 12, 2005)

sjmiller said:
			
		

> I must say that I do not greet the announcement with the heady enthusiasm of many here, nor do I greet it with the scorn of a good number of others.  I see the announcement and shrug in indifference.  Personally, I don't *need* another campaign setting.  As it is I do not use any of the available ones!  There are a great many detailed, different, and quite usable campaign settings out there.  I happen to prefer my own setting.  With my own campaign setting I know every single detail about it, often times without having to look them up.  I know what is where, who did what to whom, and I know that my players are enjoying it.



Few people *need* another campaign setting.  Heavens knows I don't.  That said, that's what I most want to buy these days, because I can use stuff from them in all of the games I do play, even in my own setting.  My shortlist of books to buy (after summer expenses of shipping kids to grandma and grandpa's house, etc. are done) include the second Iron Kingdoms book, the two Dark Legacies books, the latest Eberron book (Five Nations) and then the MM3.

Even without using a setting "out of the box" I get more mileage from setting books than any other.  Some of the most used books in my collection include Midnight, CoCd20, Rokugan and Eberron.


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## Ketjak (Jul 12, 2005)

*This post is probably better suited to Monte's meta forums...*



			
				Monte At Home said:
			
		

> Fair enough. Go to www.malhavocpress.com rather than montecook.com and you'll bypass the splash page and get right to the meat of the site.
> 
> Agreed. That's why you can--if you use the splash page--click on the what's new button. However, I also still do the weekly message with links to all the new stuff just like before on the Malhavoc Press page, reached either by the Malhavoc Press button or the URL I mentioned.
> 
> ...




Thanks for replying, Monte. 

I wasn't aware that malhavocpress.com duplicates the montecook.com welcome site. That's an interesting choice - seems you'd want to funnel folks to the single site rather than pay to develop and maintain two sites, when one contains "personal" information that's a subset of the main (malhavocpress.com) site. If nothing new appears on montecook.com that does not also appear, why the second site?

That also makes the "splash" screen doubly useless. Not only does it present nothing new and interfere with access to information, but its main purpose is to present a navigation option to montecook.com that, if used, actually _reduces_ information available to the user. As someone who wants to promote his product and brand to users, that seems harmful to business, not just silly. You want people to see you (your brand) and your products, right?

I did just check, and it seems to work from my PDA. I'll be back more regularly!

- Ket

Nit: both the montecook.com and malhavocpress.com have the title "Welcome!" In tabs or multiple windows, they appear identical when they're not the focus. That's because they're using the same template and weren't modified. Have your webmaster change the TITLE metatag ("<title>Welcome!</title>") to "Welcome to Monte's Journal!" and "Welcome to Malhavoc Press!" respectively.


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## ThirdWizard (Jul 12, 2005)

Being that I've been running only Planescape since its release many many years ago (with a short lived but fun Ravenloft game), I doubt I'll actually end up running a Ptolus game. However, one great thing about PS is its ability to integrate all sorts of things that wouldn't work with other settings. So, I, for one, am looking forward to the release of Ptolus.


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## Erekose13 (Jul 12, 2005)

Montecook.com/malhavocpress.com is all one site.  On the webhost Monte has just one set of files.  Each of his domains point to different entry points to that site, but the site navigation exists for all.  www.arcanaunearthed.com and www.arcanaevolved.com as well as www.ironheroes.com all point to different entry points too.  Only Montecook.com points to the Splash Page, but it is just a portal to different pages all offered on every other domain he owns. Once you click on one of those pages you have access to the entire site.  You can see the whole navigation if you click on the Site Map button on the bottom of the Splash page.

Edit: www.ptolus.com also goes to Monte's site.


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## Campbell (Jul 12, 2005)

On a related note this issue is shaping up to be one of my favorites. While I haven't fully explored the contents of all the articles, all look like they contain solid fluff as well as some decent crunch. The article on alcohol will definitely see some use in my games.


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## Arbiter of Wyrms (Jul 13, 2005)

BiggusGeekus said:
			
		

> The cover looks sweet!



Does it?







			
				Hexgrid said:
			
		

> pronunciation?
> Is that a silent "t" or a silent "p"? Or are they both voiced?



Huh?


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## ThirdWizard (Jul 13, 2005)

Arbiter of Wyrms said:
			
		

> Huh?




TOELus?
ToeLUS?
PuhTOELus

I've always pronounced it TOELus, but I could be wrong. There's a thread about this very thing. It's probably best to nip it in the bud before it grows to Eberron status.


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## Arbiter of Wyrms (Jul 13, 2005)

ThirdWizard said:
			
		

> TOELus?
> ToeLUS?
> PuhTOELus
> 
> I've always pronounced it TOELus, but I could be wrong. There's a thread about this very thing. It's probably best to nip it in the bud before it grows to Eberron status.



AH! I get it!  Yeah, I guess I just assumed that it was TOELus - looks Greek/Latin, sounds Greeks/Latin.  I treat the initial P as a diacritic, indicating that the following t is an ejective, but I really don't have any support for this, just personal preference.

EDIT: "Eberron status?"


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## ThirdWizard (Jul 13, 2005)

Arbiter of Wyrms said:
			
		

> EDIT: "Eberron status?"




"Drow" status would be more precise, but Eberron is also a campaign setting, so I thought it was more appropriate. Basically, its at the point where even if told how to pronounce it correctly, people will still use their prefered way to say it. I believe the "official" way to say Eberron is EE-Baron, but I have yet to hear anyone pronounce it that way.


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## DaveMage (Jul 13, 2005)

ThirdWizard said:
			
		

> TOELus?
> ToeLUS?
> PuhTOELus
> 
> I've always pronounced it TOELus, but I could be wrong. There's a thread about this very thing. It's probably best to nip it in the bud before it grows to Eberron status.




It's pronounced "Cindy".


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## Desdichado (Jul 13, 2005)

Arbiter of Wyrms said:
			
		

> AH! I get it!  Yeah, I guess I just assumed that it was TOELus - looks Greek/Latin, sounds Greeks/Latin.



Ironically, in Greek and Latin both you'd pronounce both the [p] and the [t].


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## Vradna (Jul 13, 2005)

ThirdWizard said:
			
		

> "Drow" status would be more precise, but Eberron is also a campaign setting, so I thought it was more appropriate. Basically, its at the point where even if told how to pronounce it correctly, people will still use their prefered way to say it. I believe the "official" way to say Eberron is EE-Baron, but I have yet to hear anyone pronounce it that way.





Funny. EE-Baron

My DM is a Canadian.  I am Australian.  My DM says 'EE-Baron.' He also says 'KAstle' instead of 'Carh-stle'.  But I don't hold that against him.  Behind his back, I whisper 'Eh-BUH-ron' to the other players.   

At the risk of hijacking this thread, how does one say 'Drow'??
I always thought that the 'ow' Drow is pronounced the same way as 'cow' as opposed to 'ow' sounding like the 'oe' in 'hoe' or 'toe', but that is just me.  I don't call cows 'koes'.  Don't get me started on the word 'sow' or 'row'....


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## Patryn of Elvenshae (Jul 13, 2005)

Vradna said:
			
		

> At the risk of hijacking this thread, how does one say 'Drow'??




It rhymes with "bow."  

I've always pronounced it with a long-o sound, and I always will.


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## Vigwyn the Unruly (Jul 13, 2005)

Arbiter of Wyrms said:
			
		

> I treat the initial P as a diacritic, indicating that the following t is an ejective




Showoff.


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## reveal (Jul 13, 2005)

Vradna said:
			
		

> At the risk of hijacking this thread, how does one say 'Drow'??
> I always thought that the 'ow' Drow is pronounced the same way as 'cow' as opposed to 'ow' sounding like the 'oe' in 'hoe' or 'toe', but that is just me.  I don't call cows 'koes'.  Don't get me started on the word 'sow' or 'row'....




There's a cool thread on mispronounced monster names, including Drow, here:

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=139451


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## Monte At Home (Jul 13, 2005)

Technically, it probably should be Toh-Lus, but we always say Tall-us, with an ever so slight pronouncing of the P.


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## BiggusGeekus (Jul 13, 2005)

Arbiter of Wyrms said:
			
		

> Does it?Huh?




There's a picture of the cover in _Dragon_.  Or what I presume is the cover.  Technically, it could be a very nice looking piece of artwork that is going to be the basis for a very unusual toothpaste advertisement, but I doubt it.


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## DaveMage (Jul 13, 2005)

BiggusGeekus said:
			
		

> There's a picture of the cover in _Dragon_.  Or what I presume is the cover.  Technically, it could be a very nice looking piece of artwork that is going to be the basis for a very unusual toothpaste advertisement, but I doubt it.




Ptolus: A great city campaign setting AND freshens breath!


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## Arbiter of Wyrms (Jul 13, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> Ironically, in Greek and Latin both you'd pronounce both the [p] and the [t].



A double initial voiceless stop! Really?! So the classical pronunciation of Ptolemy includes an initial cluster? Or is there some ph-like blend that I'm unaware of?


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## Arbiter of Wyrms (Jul 13, 2005)

Patryn of Elvenshae said:
			
		

> It rhymes with "bow."



Yeah, exactly right: "bow," like the front of a ship.  It would be silly to say it some other way.


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## Arbiter of Wyrms (Jul 13, 2005)

Vigwyn the Unruly said:
			
		

> Showoff.



That's normally pronounced "linguist," but I think of myself as a descriptivist, rather than a proscriptivist, so I don't meant to correct you, but only to point out that you have employed an interesting innovation here.


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## Arbiter of Wyrms (Jul 13, 2005)

Biggus "I've got the new Dragon and you don't" Geekus said:
			
		

> There's a picture of the cover in _Dragon_.  Or what I presume is the cover.  Technically, it could be a very nice looking piece of artwork that is going to be the basis for a very unusual toothpaste advertisement, but I doubt it.



Showoff.


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## Odhanan (Jul 14, 2005)

I for one am thrilled with this announcement. Ptolus is a campaign that brought some of the most imaginative third edition designers together around the game table. Ptolus grew with this gaming experience and D&D became better for it, since the "City By The Spire" was created around the D&D rules, and not the reverse.

Perhaps this is what can be the most appealing to fans of D&D that are also interested somehow in game design: this idea that Ptolus in fact was one of the big playtests (if not *the* one) that brought us 3E as we know it. Usually, the core rules are bent to fit a particular setting. Here with Ptolus this is just the reverse. This is the archetypal D&D as seen in the mind of some of its prominent designers.

Now, that's also a city book. And a huge adventure book. And *loads* of various factions, noble houses, groups and guilds that could be adapted to nearly any type of homebrew. The undercity and warrens could easily serve as inspirations for Undermountain for instance.

To get an idea of what I'm talking about, you can read about Ptolus here:
http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?ptolus

I'm really looking forward to this one!


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## Arbiter of Wyrms (Jul 15, 2005)

BiggusGeekus said:
			
		

> The cover looks sweet!



http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?mpress_Ptolus
Okay.  Clearly, you are, once again, correct.  I defer to your wisdom, and now I really want this book.

[sblock]I still want my copy of Dragon 334, though.[/sblock]


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