# Best bang for the buck for a level-adjusted race?



## aboyd (Apr 23, 2009)

I rarely play level-adjusted anything, because I don't like not being able to gain a level when I expect it.  However, I'm sure there are a few races out there that are probably no-brainers if they're allowed as playable characters.

So, what do you guys think?  Is there a race out there that has a very minor level adjustment (perhaps just 1 level, or 2) yet provides excellent advantages for the tradeoff?  Educate me.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 23, 2009)

While I usually play PCs without LAs and get as quirky as I wanna be, when I _do_ play a PC with a LA race, I nearly always try to play to that race's strengths.

For instance, I recently played a Monk/PsiWar who was a +2LA Race-  Githzerai (for the record, I had also considered an Anthropomorphic Ape, which has similar stat adjustments).  With a +6 to Dex, a +2 to Wis and Inertial Armor as a spell-like ability, starting off as a Monk was simply a no-brainer.  Using a Feat to become proficient in a polearm as a Monk weapon (from DCv1), the PC was next to impossible to hit- AC 21 _before_ using Inertial Armor- and had AoOs for miles.  He did almost as much combat damage as the single classed Human barbarian.

The aforementioned Anthros can be fun- nice stat mods for most of them, though several have HD you'd have to account for.

I'd also play just about any of the Planetouched- as I recall, none of them have a LA above +2.

Scouring the MMs and some of the campaign books, you can find all kinds of critters that can be fun to play- various goblinoids and orcs, Lizardfolk, Mephlings, and so on.

Most of the ones in the XPH can be very nice as well- Half-Giants and Thri-Kreen spring to mind immediately.

In addition, some *Templates* will give you LAs, and are still worth it.  "Feral," from _Savage Species_, is one of my personal favorites, and is only +1LA.  Many consider it underpriced, but even at +2, it would be worth it.  "Winged" is another template in that price range.

But it boils down to your playstyle- how you play will really determine whether you'd find a particular...really _any_...LA race fun to play.

What, if any, preferences do you have in your PC designs?


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## Herzog (Apr 23, 2009)

I'd personally look for LA assigned primarily for stat boosts or for abilities that scale with level.
The Drow spell resistance, for instance, increases with every level, so will still be usefull at higher levels.
It's spell like abilities, on the other hand, are nice, but although the caster level scales with level, they're still 0 or first lvl spells, and can be cast only once each, so won't be that interesting at lvl 10.

stat bonusses from ANY source are good, since they increase your character no matter what. The question remains whether they still justify the same LA at higher levels.
As discussed elsewhere, LA buy-off reverses this problem, as it allows (after buy-off) some characters to have better stats (or additional abilities) without anything to account for it.


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## aboyd (Apr 23, 2009)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> What, if any, preferences do you have in your PC designs?



Well, I believe strongly in the "never give up caster levels" idea, so I would never use a race that had a +3 or more level adjustment.  It's just too much delay in gaining levels.  But I'm thinking about some +1 or +2 races.  Also, I rarely play beyond level 14 or 15, so I don't really care if the level adjusted race starts to seem like a poor trade at very high levels.

I also have a very hard time wrapping my brain around stat trades that are net-negative.  In other words, +2 to str, -2 dex, -2 wis.  That's not worth it to me at all, unless there is a whopper of a different kind of bonus (a host of free spells or multiple extra feats or... you get the idea).

Other than that, no real preferences.  I think I'd like to make an enemy using a LA race, and throw it at my players (7 are level 4, 1 is level 3).  But I'm also curious about something that is a dead-obvious good race to play for a campaign that I'm a player in.  I have no pre-set class for that campaign, so I might be able to go with something that just seems really well done, regardless of class.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 23, 2009)

Well, I stand by most of what I've already said.

When you say 


> But I'm also curious about something that is a dead-obvious good race to play for a campaign that I'm a player in.




Do you mean you're trying to design a PC for a new campaign?  If so, a little info about the campaign and/or the other PCs would be helpful.  After all, there's not much point in discussing the further merits of Githzerai Monk builds if you don't need or can't play a Monk (for whatever reason).

For spellcasters, I'd go for something size S or smaller- size doesn't affect magical potency, after all, and its a free AC adjustment in your favor- and there are a few of those in the Anthropomorphic Animal section of _Savage Species_.  Again, many of those will have good Dex bonuses, and perhaps even superior movement capabilities, and RP opportunities abound:  "I am Puss...in Boots of Speed!"

Again, the Planetouched and some of the goblinoid races are ideal for warriors and rogues.


> Aasimar characters possess the following racial traits.
> *  +2 Wisdom, +2 Charisma.
> * Medium size.
> * An aasimar’s base land speed is 30 feet.
> ...





> Tiefling characters possess the following racial traits.
> *  +2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma.
> * Medium size.
> * A tiefling’s base land speed is 30 feet.
> ...






> Hobgoblin characters possess the following racial traits.
> 
> * +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution.
> * A hobgoblin’s base land speed is 30 feet.
> ...


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## Runestar (Apr 23, 2009)

I find the planetouched and hobgoblin woefully underpowered for their LA. You are better off using the LA+0 planetouched variant in PGTF.

Savage species has the anthropomorphic baleen whale...


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## irdeggman (Apr 23, 2009)

I echo the "what kind of character are you looking for?" question.

For a melee type - the goliath barbarian (using racial substitution levels) from Races of Stone is very enticing.  Big physical stat bumps, monstrous humanoid (so all of those benefits) and essentially powerful build. So use larger sized weapons for a huge bump in damage output.

Combine a large sized great axe with a barbarian's rage and power attack - whoa baby watch out for the damage.


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## aboyd (Apr 23, 2009)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Do you mean you're trying to design a PC for a new campaign?  If so, a little info about the campaign and/or the other PCs would be helpful.



Sure, both the campaign I play in and the campaign I DM are core + Complete books only.  Technically, I also have all the En World "Critters" monster books, although I don't know much about the playable races in there except for a rainbow-winged race that looks very unfun to play, unless I were into Smurfs and Care Bears.

I'd be looking for something plausible for a group of characters using core races.  So no towering giants wandering around with a party of 4 humans.  This race should be roughly the same size, and able to get into & out of a normal-sized dungeon, and able to walk a town street without having a crowd with pitchforks chasing after.  However, some racism or raised eyebrows would be all right.  For example, I'd play a drow if I didn't find them uninteresting.  They're OK.

All of what I just wrote is for a build I'd like to try as a player.

Now, I'd also like to try something level-adjusted an an enemy to throw at the players in my own campaign.  This could be more outrageous -- anything from MM1, MM2, En World Critters, Denizens of Avadnu, Tome of Horrors Revised.  I'd just like to have a level-equivalent battle and see how they hold up before dying (if they do).  Never tried it before.  What makes a fun villain in this regard?


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## Onyx (Apr 23, 2009)

The absolute best melee addition that I can think of is the Mineral Warrior (follow link, half way down the page) from the Underdark book.

For a minor +1 LA you receive +2 Str, +4 Con, -2 Int, -2 Wis, -2 Cha as well as +3 Natural Armor, a burrow speed equal to one-half your base speed, Earth Strike (like smite evil against anything touching the ground), Darkvision 60ft, and DR 8/adamantine.

While the loss of two to each mental attribute might be considered a bit of a loss, for your run of the mill barbarians or your Power Attack line fighters it's really a no brainer.


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## Jhaelen (Apr 23, 2009)

Has anyone tried to play an Aranea sorcerer?

Sure, they're EL+4 but they also start with three sorcerer levels...


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## Starbuck_II (Apr 23, 2009)

aboyd said:


> Sure, both the campaign I play in and the campaign I DM are core + Complete books only. Technically, I also have all the En World "Critters" monster books, although I don't know much about the playable races in there except for a rainbow-winged race that looks very unfun to play, unless I were into Smurfs and Care Bears.
> 
> I'd be looking for something plausible for a group of characters using core races. So no towering giants wandering around with a party of 4 humans. This race should be roughly the same size, and able to get into & out of a normal-sized dungeon, and able to walk a town street without having a crowd with pitchforks chasing after. However, some racism or raised eyebrows would be all right. For example, I'd play a drow if I didn't find them uninteresting. They're OK.




So a Domovoi from Frostburn?
Small creature with : 2 HD and 2 LA?
Fire subtype (so immune), at will produde flame and pyrotechnics.
3/day flaming sphere.
pg 122 Frostburn.-2 Str, +4 Dex, +2 Con, +4 Int, +4 Wis, +6 Cha

They look like a small sized (2 foot) dwarf/halfing hybrid (hairy feet, beard, etc). Kinda like a bum, but not.

Humans love them because Domovoi usually are nice enough to start fires in fireplace and keep homes in icey areas warm so they don't freeze.

And why worry about appearance causing trouble buy a Hat of Diguise from DMG: do you know how cheap that is in cost?


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## s-dub (Apr 23, 2009)

I looked at the Aranea but I think that their benefits do not outweigh the cost IIRC.  What I remember is:

They can cast multiple spells per round, but only lower level spells.

Their 3 sorc levels come from their racial HD, so then you have to add 4 on top of that I think to get their ECL.

If this is true then Aranea probably wouldn't make a good low level character or a high level character.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 23, 2009)

aboyd said:


> I'd be looking for something plausible for a group of characters using core races.  So no towering giants wandering around with a party of 4 humans.  This race should be roughly the same size, and able to get into & out of a normal-sized dungeon, and able to walk a town street without having a crowd with pitchforks chasing after.  However, some racism or raised eyebrows would be all right.  For example, I'd play a drow if I didn't find them uninteresting.  They're OK.




I understand the Drow thing- I've been playing one since they were introduced, and everyone thinks he's a Drizzt clone...which he isn't, predating him by several years and having almost nothing in common with him except being Drow...

As for your criteria for a PC, Planetouched, Genasi and Goblinoid/Orcish variants are probably your best bets.  All are well within the parameters of "humanoid" appearance, and almost all of them are +2LA or lower.  Githzerai and Githyanki also work well, but may generate a little more hostility, at least as much as Drow.  All have some interesting abilities.

In addition, as hinted at above, check out sources like Frostburn and the Races of series.  They have some variant races that aren't terribly overpriced and introduce some interesting possibilities.  I kind of like the Neanderthal from Frostburn, for instance- a variant _Human_ race.


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## aboyd (Apr 23, 2009)

Thanks Danny & everyone else.  This is starting to sound promising.  I don't have Frostburn, but the Domovoi is almost exactly what I was hoping for.

You know, I have to admit, ever since playing Planscape Torment, I've really been curious about playing a Githzerai, regardless of whether their LA is a good tradeoff or not.  They would be _enjoyable_ to roleplay.  I'd be a little scared of when the group is 3rd level and I'm still 1st with 9 HP, but assuming I can survive, it sounds like a fun option.

When you play a LA character, what happens with stat bonuses, which normally come at 4th, 8th, and so on?  Do you get them when you reach level 2, because you're level-adjusted to 4th?  Or do you wait until you _really_ hit 4th level (and all your allies are probably at 6th level)?


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## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 23, 2009)

aboyd said:


> You know, I have to admit, ever since playing Planscape Torment, I've really been curious about playing a Githzerai, regardless of whether their LA is a good tradeoff or not.  They would be _enjoyable_ to roleplay.  I'd be a little scared of when the group is 3rd level and I'm still 1st with 9 HP, but assuming I can survive, it sounds like a fun option.




Remember, a Githzerai's +6 Dex mod means that as a Monk or in any kind of light-ish armor, he'll be as hard to hit as a Dwarven "Fireplug" in heavy armor.  AND he still has Inertial Armor 3/Day for another +4 if he needs it (if he's a spellcaster, for instance).


> When you play a LA character, what happens with stat bonuses, which normally come at 4th, 8th, and so on?  Do you get them when you reach level 2, because you're level-adjusted to 4th?  Or do you wait until you _really_ hit 4th level (and all your allies are probably at 6th level)?




As I understand it, with a PC, you add the LA to their class levels to come up with the PC's ECL.  Treat that as the overall PC level- effectively, that LA is like having levels in a class with unusual mechanical benefits.  So a PC with 1 class level and a +2LA is ECL 3, so should get his 3rd level Feat.  When he gets his 2nd class level, he'll get a stat adjustment, since he's now ECL 4.

However, all_ Class_ related abilities depend upon the PC's actual class levels.  That ECL 4 PC above would only be entitled to the 2 class levels worth of abilities, not 4.


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## irdeggman (Apr 24, 2009)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> As I understand it, with a PC, you add the LA to their class levels to come up with the PC's ECL.  Treat that as the overall PC level- effectively, that LA is like having levels in a class with unusual mechanical benefits.  So a PC with 1 class level and a +2LA is ECL 3, so should get his 3rd level Feat.  When he gets his 2nd class level, he'll get a stat adjustment, since he's now ECL 4.
> 
> However, all_ Class_ related abilities depend upon the PC's actual class levels.  That ECL 4 PC above would only be entitled to the 2 class levels worth of abilities, not 4.




Nope.

Everything is HD related except for starting money and xp.

_Everything_ else is based on HD, level-based feats, (and ability increases), max skill ranks, etc.

DMG pg 172

"Use ECL instead of character level when. . ."


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## pawsplay (Apr 24, 2009)

Catfolk (+4 Dex, +2 Cha) are insanely good as Wilders, Hexblades, Bards, Rogues, and Paladins. For paladins, you can put your dump stat in Dex and your highest stat in Cha.  

Hobgoblins are fairly weak for their LA... unless you want to take advantage of their _+4 to Move Silently checks_. They already get +2 Dex and Con. Ranger, rogue, ninja, or scout. Beguiler or an arcane trickster is good, too, as you can try to be invisible as much as possible. 

Aasimar are really only worth it if you can use both their stat bonuses. Paladins and clerics qualify. If you use only one raised ability score, then you have druids, knights, marshals, hexblades, bards, psychic warriors, wilders, and rangers. 

Tieflings... have a net penalty, and make terrible sorcerers, strangely. However, they work well as warlocks (+2 Dex) provided you avoid most things that involve a saving throw. Tiefling wizard, tiefling rogue are no-brainers, but don't overlook the swashbuckler, duskblade, or fighter/rogue/duelist. Rogue/wizard/arcane trickster is also pretty good. The bonus to Bluff can help make up for the Cha penalty.


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## Darklone (Apr 24, 2009)

Pixies.


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## Noir le Lotus (Apr 24, 2009)

The Half-Dragon template is really good for fighters : +4 Natural Armor, +8 Str (forn only +3 LA => you can still hit hard), +2 Con, though the firts levels may be really difficult.


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## milo (Apr 24, 2009)

Saint template is pretty good at LA +2.  They get a +2 con, +2 wis, and +4 cha.  Fast healing = to 1/2 hd, DR that scales with level, immune to cold, electricty, and acid.  Get to add wis to AC as insight.  And an at will double strength double area Mag Circle vs evil that also acts as a lesser globe of invulnerability.  It is from the book of Exalted deeds.


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## Herobizkit (Apr 25, 2009)

Jhaelen said:


> Has anyone tried to play an Aranea sorcerer?
> 
> Sure, they're EL+4 but they also start with three sorcerer levels...



I am currently using an Aranea sorcerer as an NPC.  She is loads of fun, especially now that I have my PC convinced that she is not the Grey Elven female she appears to be.


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## samb1230 (Apr 25, 2009)

I like the phenic template and the the half-fey.  Both are +2 LA, phenic gives you alot of good powers that are used as psi-like abilities.  Half-fey's charm AT WILL is always useful.

Githyanki I think are better than the zerth IMO.  I think zerth is better for a +1 LA +2 is a bit much.  Look at all the cool psi-like abilities you have as a yanki, which you can change with feats (which are also better than zerths).

Saint template mentioned earlier is very much worth it, esp if you plan on tanking.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 25, 2009)

irdeggman said:


> Nope.
> 
> Everything is HD related except for starting money and xp.
> 
> ...



Eh- that's what I get for posting on this without my books handy.


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## Aus_Snow (Apr 25, 2009)

None of them is worth a LA. Racial levels ftw.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 25, 2009)

I _do _prefer the racial level idea as presented in Monte Cook's _Arcana Unearthed_/_Arcana Evolved _games, but not everyone can use them.


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## Drowbane (Apr 25, 2009)

Why did it take me so long to notice this thread... oh well, I guess late to the party is better than missing it altogether!

Some of my favorites...

LA 0
* anthropomorphic bat (savage species): size small. land speed 5, fly speed 20, +6 wis, -4 str, -2 cha (makes great druids, especially after lvl 5)
* dwarf (PHB): most powerful core race
* elan (XPH): abusable expanded race
* faen (Monte's Arcana Unearthed/Evolved): simply an awesome race. I've adapted it to be my homebrew's "elf".  Faen-sprites are great casters.
* warforged (ECS): most powerful expanded race

LA 1
* dark creature (Tome of Magic): hide in plain sight, who cares if you get anything else (and you do)?
* draconic creature: half dragon lite.  Not too shabby.
* feral (savage species): decent for the cost, increasingly awesome if you have non-class HD.
* half-ogre (dragon mag): stupidly powerful. +4 str (I don't remember what else atm) and you get all the mods of a size increase (med to large nets you a +12 str, etc)
* half-ogre (savage species): a solid race for LA 1.  
* mineral warrior (underdark): ridiculously good.  DR 8/adamantine, and other lesser things

LA 2
* grave-touched ghoul (libris mortis, book of bad latin): str +2, dex +4, int +2, wis +4, cha +2, claws, bite, paralysis... whats not to like?  Oh right, that whole "evil, gotta eat people" thing.
* half-celestial (exalted deeds): if you knock off all of the HD-requirement abilities, its LA 2.  BoED says so.
* half-dragon (savage species): This version of 1/2 dragon doesn't get the BW or energy immunity.  I call it "lesser half-dragon".
* phrenic (XPH): very nice package of psionic SLAs.  +2 int, +2 wis, +4 cha.
* saint (BoED): benchmark LA 2.
* shadow creature (Lords of Madness): stronger version of Dark.  You're always in stealth mode as long as you're not in daylight.
* winged (savage species): perfect maneuverablity if you manage to have a 17+ dex (considering it gives you a +4, this is almost a sure thing)


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## AbyssKnight (Apr 25, 2009)

A recent discovery from another board, Primordial Half Giant. 

-2 str, -2 dex, +4 Int, +4 Cha, invisibility/invisibility purge/levitate (choose one) at will, stomp 1/day, +1 caster level for spell like abilities (theoretically applies to all warlock invocations), powerful build, naturally psionic, fire acclimated, +2 Spellcraft/UMD.

Perfect for almost any arcane caster! And all for +1 LA. Primordial Giant template from Secrets of Xendrik, Half Giant from Expanded Psionics Handbook.


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## Starbuck_II (Apr 25, 2009)

Drowbane said:


> Some of my favorites...
> 
> LA 0
> 
> * elan (XPH): abusable expanded race



 Could you explain this?

Is it because not humaniod?
Is it because they live forever? (how many times does that xcome in to play?)
(Is it the ability to ignore damage up to power points used in that way, 1 /round as immediate action)

Really the last ability is more of a fail safe and not a good thing to rely on. Otherwise you'll be hemoraging power points (and you need to have a psionic class to have a decent amount)


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## Elethiomel (Apr 25, 2009)

Drowbane said:


> * half-ogre (dragon mag): stupidly powerful. +4 str (I don't remember what else atm) and you get all the mods of a size increase (med to large nets you a +12 str, etc)



I really doubt that a half-ogre will get its racial bonuses *and* the medium->large adjustments on top of them. Every single Large race I've encountered does not have this stipulation.


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## Starbuck_II (Apr 25, 2009)

Except 1/2 Ogre Template explicitly says you do. Dragon 313.


Remember, it isn't a race, but a template.

There is a 1/2 Ogre race in Races of Destiny but it sucks for its LA and penalties.


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## jasin (Apr 26, 2009)

Draconic creature (Draconomicon) is LA +1 for Str +2, Con +2, Cha +2, natural armor +1 and some other minor benefits, on top of another race's abilites (it's a template).

Gravetouched ghoul gets a bunch of stuff for it's LA, and it's also a template. I don't have Libris Mortis handy to check the specifics, but I remember being impressed.

You could do some interesting things with a tiefling eldritch knight, if you're willing to abuse 1) the fact that outsiders are described as proficient with martial weapons; and 2) polymorph.

I played a werepanther martial artist (homebrew class, think monk) once. It's the only LA character I've seen where the LA was worth it from a purely powergaming perspective. I've also made a "werefox" (weredog stats) iaijutsu master that seemed pretty cool on paper at least. Smallish animals can still have some pretty awesome stat modifiers for their HD, and DR 10/silver can make up for a lot of hp.


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## Drowbane (Apr 26, 2009)

oops


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## Drowbane (Apr 26, 2009)

Elethiomel said:


> I really doubt that a half-ogre will get its racial bonuses *and* the medium->large adjustments on top of them. Every single Large race I've encountered does not have this stipulation.




Cast off your doubts and have faith!  Seriously though, I was floored when I saw that in Dragon... I was more so when I managed to convince a DM to let me apply it to a Thri-Kreen. 



Starbuck_II said:


> (Is it the ability to ignore damage up to power points used in that way, 1 /round as immediate action)



That one.  

IIRC, it was an Elan Psion using a combonation of Dampen Power and his racial dmg negation-ability (had a feat to make it 2 or 4 points negated per psi-point).  All in all it was very impressive to seen a low (5th, 6th?) lvl psion totally soak a 10d6 fireball.  Then again, the party rogue just dodged it...

It has been a few years since I've seen a Elan in play, and this may just be the memory of a knee-jerk reaction ("he does what?!").


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## Elethiomel (Apr 26, 2009)

Drowbane said:


> Cast off your doubts and have faith!  Seriously though, I was floored when I saw that in Dragon... I was more so when I managed to convince a DM to let me apply it to a Thri-Kreen.



Heh. Powergaming at its finest, then. Seriously, though, people have a lot of complaints about power creep in splat books (which is more or less inevitable with options creep and a flexible system like 3.5, but I feel they've limited it pretty well nonetheless)... but splat books apparently have nothing on Dragon Magazine.


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## Starbuck_II (Apr 26, 2009)

If we use Dragon mag: then a Gheden template is sweet.

LA+1
Str +4, -2 Dex/Con/Int, -4 Cha.
Feats: Toughness, endurance, diehard.
Immune fear, confusion, and energy drain attacks. Non-lethal, stunning, and death from massive damage have no effect.
Fortification 50%, darkvision 60 ft. Mettle in regards to negative enwrgy damage (save successfully no damage).

Drawbacks;
Direct hit from holy water deals 1d4 damage (splash doesn't hurt at least). Vulnerable to turning: You are treated as undead at 1/2 your HD. You are stunned 2d4 rounds if could be controlled/destroyed. And -4 penalty if could be cowered/turned.

Pretty nice as long as not fighting clerics.


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## HandofMystra (Apr 27, 2009)

*avoiding SA*

To add some fuel to the fire ... what are LA races/templates that give immunity to sneak attack. I know one, the Woodling from MMIII. I am making a Woodling Druid for a 3.5 arena battle we have once a month at our local game store.


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## irdeggman (Apr 27, 2009)

HandofMystra said:


> To add some fuel to the fire ... what are LA races/templates that give immunity to sneak attack. I know one, the Woodling from MMIII. I am making a Woodling Druid for a 3.5 arena battle we have once a month at our local game store.




Anything with "fortification" would likewise be immune.

Also note that the woodling now has a susceptability to fire damage (50% more damage from things like a fireball or flaming hands).


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## Darklone (Apr 27, 2009)

Where is Aranea from again?


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## Aus_Snow (Apr 27, 2009)

Darklone said:


> Where is Aranea from again?



The only thing I'm familiar with, by that name, is in the Monster Manual, or alternatively the SRD. But that's not a template, and would *suck* as a PC 'race'. Badly.


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## amethal (Apr 27, 2009)

Planetouched make good binders, because they are proficient with all martial weapons.

Its irritating to only be able to use your expensive magical rapier when you are bound to Paimon, for example.


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## risner (Apr 28, 2009)

I tend to play characters with racial HD.  Here is my top list in order of interest:

Murrlurk (Sandstorm p171)
3 Racial HD (Monstrous Humanoid)
great stats, great hearing, Darkvision, Sneak Attack, bonus racial feats
LA +2

Lumi (MMIII p98)
2 Racial HD (Outsider)
good stats, Immune to 17 effects including vorpal and death effects, SLAs, Improved Initiative as racial bonus feat
LA +2

Centaur (MMI)
Pretty good for 4 Monstrous Humanoid/LA +2


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## insanogeddon (Apr 29, 2009)

*One Word*

were-rat 

Do not be mislead by other therianthropes.  the rats the win !

War Shaper from 'complete warrior' just adds insult to injury !!


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## Theroc (Apr 29, 2009)

insanogeddon said:


> were-rat
> 
> Do not be mislead by other therianthropes.  the rats the win !
> 
> War Shaper from 'complete warrior' just adds insult to injury !!




Why is the wererat superior to the other therianthropes?  Enlighten me, as you've piqued my curiousity.(Being a fan of Weretiger myself, and a fan of Therianthropy in general[though confused and discouraged by alignment snafu as mentioned in another thread])


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## jedavis (Apr 30, 2009)

I'm a fan of races with low LA and no HD.  My feral half-ogre (SS) barbarians have been banned...  who needs a greataxe when you do just as much damage with claws and can improved grab and grapple like nobody's business?  Plus, the feral template version of improved grab has a clause to the effect of "whenever you win a grapple check, you deal claw damage," which leads to _obscene_ damage output.

On 'thropes:  I prefer weretiger as well.  Weretiger + barbarian 1 dip for rage + druid (for buffs) + warshaper results in a brutal melee combatant.

Finally, legends from a monstrous gestalt campaign: pixie spiked chain AoO rogue, ghoul true sorcerer (TruSorc doesn't have slots; casting deals subdual damage.  Ergo, undead TruSorcs can cast all day long).


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## insanogeddon (May 7, 2009)

*Delayed response sorry*

Were tiger is expensive:  +2 Level Adjustment if afflicted, +3 if Natural
AND "Same as the base creature plus those of the base animal. To calculate total hit points, apply Constitution modifiers according to the score the lycanthrope has in each form."

A rat is 1HD so that means you only need to buy one level where your getting the suck of..

*Animal Type*: An animal is a living, nonhuman creature, usually a vertebrate with no magical abilities and no innate capacity for language or culture.
_Features_: An animal has the following features (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

d8 Hit Dice.
Base attack bonus equal to 3/4 total Hit Dice (as cleric).
Good Fortitude and Reflex saves (certain animals have different good saves).
Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die.
A tiger is 6 HD 
\
That means instead of being a afflicted were rat 8th level: 
1 rat, 2 LA, 4 whatever, 1  war shaper 

you are a

6 tiger, 2 LA, no class yet !!!!

thats a big difference whan it comes to attack bonus, skills, feats, ability score boosts for level etc etc.



Were Wolf being 2HD is okay as well.

The animal HD are the weakness.


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## Theroc (May 7, 2009)

insanogeddon said:


> Were tiger is expensive:  +2 Level Adjustment if afflicted, +3 if Natural
> AND "Same as the base creature plus those of the base animal. To calculate total hit points, apply Constitution modifiers according to the score the lycanthrope has in each form."
> 
> A rat is 1HD so that means you only need to buy one level where your getting the suck of..
> ...




 I had no idea there was anything besides the LA inflating the ECL of a character.


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## irdeggman (May 7, 2009)

Theroc said:


> I had no idea there was anything besides the LA inflating the ECL of a character.





ECL = Hit Dice (class levels + racial hit dice)  + level adjustment

DMG pg 199-200


> Take the level adjustment plus the Hit Dice to generate ECL.




MM pg 308


> A creature's ECL is the sum of its Hit Dice (including class levels) and level adjustment. For instance, a minotaur has 6 HD and a +2 level adjustment. It is the equivalent of an 8th-level character.




From the SRD



> *Level Adjustment and Effective Character Level:* To determine the effective character level (ECL) of a monster character, *add its level adjustment to its racial Hit Dice and character class levels. *The monster is considered to have experience points equal to the minimum needed to be a character of its ECL.
> 
> If you choose to equip a monster with gear, use its ECL as its character level for purposes of determining how much equipment it can purchase. Generally, only monsters with an Advancement entry of “By character class” receive
> NPC gear; other creatures adding character levels should be treated as monsters of the appropriate CR and assigned treasure, not equipment.


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## Theroc (May 7, 2009)

irdeggman said:


> ECL = Hit Dice (class levels + racial hit dice)  + level adjustment
> 
> DMG pg 199-200
> 
> ...




Sorry Irdegg, I should have been more specific.  I meant a Lycanthrope Character.  It was late and I wasn't being very specific/intelligent, I suppose.


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## insanogeddon (May 8, 2009)

*lol*

You must have thought i had lost it...
Suggesting rat: +6 dex, +2 con 
over Tiger: +12 Str, +4 Dex, +6 Con
if it was the same cost.

Unfort HD need to be considered.

Con and Str tend to make up for HD and attack bonus exp. if spring attacking or charging or bows or attack of opportunity tumble/reach build.

the other good one is lycanthrope (were wolf). 2 HD
for: +2 str, +4 dex, +4 con
and maybe boar +4 str, +6 con. 3 HD

The basics are what sells it tho not the animal: +2 wisdom, Iron Will as a bonus feat, +2 AC, DR 5 silver, scent, low light vision, Alternate form for spying/traveling/being ridden etc, empathy with your animal type for cool roleplaying opportunities and habits, the 'cursed hero' archetype you get to play to, and its basic and mythological not some abberation from a splat book.

*Alignment*: Any. Noble creatures such as bears, eagles, and lions tend to produce good-aligned lycanthropes. Sinister creatures such as rats, snakes, and wolves tend to produce evil-aligned lycanthropes. This is a reflection of how these animals are perceived, not any innate quality of the animal itself, so the alignment of the animal form can be arbitrarily assigned.

Digression:

Played a wild elf monk/kensai archer with a mate who was a wood elf rogue 1/ranger ++ 2wpn fighter (competative half-brothers in game..same dad different moms, he was a high elf sword man AND archer AND caster from a 2nd ed game that knocked up our moms and abandoned us but we sorta want to be as recognised/validated).. bastard children as we were in a further blow we we got lycanthropy... rat ! 
He took war shaper for +4 str and con and immune to crits.. control shape was a hassle sometimes but always in an amusing way: fire balled/turned into a rat dropping bow and having to fight as a poxy yet supprisingly effective rat... brother was a toughfer rat (we often fought as rats) but I had a magic bite, was fast, good AC, slow fall and immune to disease (in your face brother) due to monk. It was powerful and really memorable with heaps of roleplaying opps, great scouting fun/torture with the invis mage and his nasty familiar, and character content/room to for the DM to interact with to enrichen our specific imersion. Epic.


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## Theroc (May 8, 2009)

insanogeddon said:


> You must have thought i had lost it...
> Suggesting rat: +6 dex, +2 con
> over Tiger: +12 Str, +4 Dex, +6 Con
> if it was the same cost.
> ...




Yes, Insano, I was very confused as to why the rat was superior.  Now realizing that the 'adding hit dice from animal' tacks on ECL(this hadn't occurred to me before), I am wondering even more if lycanthropy(besides maybe rat) is really that positive mechanically at all.  It sounds like the affliction is really that, an affliction and not something that can really be twisted into something worth the ECL inflation.(Unless Warshaper is really THAT good.)

Hrm... this makes me even more reluctant to play a Lycanthrope in a game, as much as the concept appeals to me for RP reasons.  Always loved the shapeshifting concept, but there are so many complications and penalties around Lycanthropy, I'm concerned it'd make any character I make ineffective in the long run.


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## insanogeddon (May 8, 2009)

War shaper is THAT good.

Say you have ratooshi issues (as i did.. they have only increased despite my grudging appreciation, and perhaps due to, of the sneak/intelegence gathering/silent death factor of a rat form in the castle and pesant oriented dnd setting)

Say were-wolf.. a classic.

Barbarian 1, Ftr 2, Wolf 2, Ecl 2, War Shaper 2

9th level chracter (assuming fractional bab)
BAB = +6
HD: 12 + 2d10 + 4d8 
Wolf gets good fort AND reflex so saves are fine, perhaps better in all areas exp considering...

DA
DAA
DAAAH

With Were Wolf + Warshaper:
+6 Str
+4 Dex
+8 Con
+2 Wis
Bonus Feat: Iron Will
+2 AC
DR 5 Silver
Immune to crits
Scent 
Low Light Vision

Hell be a dwarf and take the next 2 levels as 'Deepwarden' from races of stone and get your con to AC as well.... and laughf the laughf of a gruff god of invunrable slaughter !!

If that was your game I would be dwarf Hex 3 wolf 2 to qualify for warshaper, +2 ECL, Warshaper 3, Deepwarden 2..... pick up 'endurance' and 'steadfast determination' (PH 2) so get con to WILL SAVES AS WELL and with your mettle from hexblade and inability to fail fort saves on a 1 watch the DM squirm like a little piggy when trying to drop you.


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## KerlanRayne (May 9, 2009)

I rather like the Petal. It's a tiny fey from MM3 with +2 LA. It has 60' fly speed and gives -8 Str, +10 Dex, +4 Con, +4 Int, +8 Cha. It has 1 HD, but I'm pretty sure that it's replaced by class levels.


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## amethal (May 9, 2009)

KerlanRayne said:


> I rather like the Petal.  It has 1 HD, but I'm pretty sure that it's replaced by class levels.



Yes, but (unlike humanoids, where it is automatic) you can choose with 1 HD fey whether you want to replace with class levels or not.


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