# News Digest for the Week of January 6



## doctorhook

That PBS article kinda tosses the entire OSR movement under the bus as racist and backward. It lets one person define OSR as “a gaming movement whose players claim they are ‘against outside politics permeating their game space’”, without fact-checking that definition.

In fact, OSR is a big-tent movement with lots of debate about its own definition. Certainly reactionary politics is NOT the defining factor nor driving interest for many (most?) OSR fans.


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## Eminence_Grise

I don't know about racist, but wouldn't "backward" be a good word to describe OSR? Or is there an american meaning or slur that I don't get?


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## R_Chance

Eminence_Grise said:


> I don't know about racist, but wouldn't "backward" be a good word to describe OSR? Or is there an american meaning or slur that I don't get?



Calling something "backward" is a slur in American English. "Retro", as in capturing an older style of gaming would be more accurate and less prejudicial. The idea that the entire OSR is full of racists / misogynists is, simply put, wrong. It's a diverse group.


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## sevenbastard

doctorhook said:


> “a gaming movement whose players claim they are ‘against outside politics permeating their game space’”




I mean Race as Class sounds like one of the worst things ever.

But OSR is definitely about one thing and one thing only. Searching for secret doors with a d6.


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## timbannock

Yeah, that OSR thing hurts a little. Of the two main OSR haunts on Reddit, the one with 900-ish members is "drama-free" (meaning, generally okay with racism, sexism, etc.), but the one with 25,000 members is fairly well moderated to get rid of anything that's not inclusive and welcoming. To consign the entire OSR to that significantly smaller group's mentality is plain wrong.


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## doctorhook

timbannock said:


> Yeah, that OSR thing hurts a little. Of the two main OSR haunts on Reddit, the one with 900-ish members is "drama-free" (meaning, generally okay with racism, sexism, etc.), but the one with 25,000 members is fairly well moderated to get rid of anything that's not inclusive and welcoming. To consign the entire OSR to that significantly smaller group's mentality is plain wrong.



Agreed. The article quoted a researcher on male-dominated social spaces, which doesn’t really illuminate whether that person knows much beyond a cursory understanding of TTRPGs—maybe he’s not very knowledgeable about this hobby but spoke anyway, or maybe he was just misquoted by the journalist.


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## Morrus

timbannock said:


> Yeah, that OSR thing hurts a little. Of the two main OSR haunts on Reddit, the one with 900-ish members is "drama-free" (meaning, generally okay with racism, sexism, etc.), but the one with 25,000 members is fairly well moderated to get rid of anything that's not inclusive and welcoming. To consign the entire OSR to that significantly smaller group's mentality is plain wrong.



The OSR has had a bunch of loud, really unfortunate self-appointed spokespeople.


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## doctorhook

Morrus said:


> The OSR has had a bunch of loud, really unfortunate self-appointed spokespeople.



Unfortunately, that’s accurate.


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## Eyes of Nine

Eagerly awaiting the return of _This Week in TTRPG_

(although to be fair, it basically recaps what @Abstruse outlines above - but in my ears!)


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## aramis erak

doctorhook said:


> That PBS article kinda tosses the entire OSR movement under the bus as racist and backward. It lets one person define OSR as “a gaming movement whose players claim they are ‘against outside politics permeating their game space’”, without fact-checking that definition.
> 
> In fact, OSR is a big-tent movement with lots of debate about its own definition. Certainly reactionary politics is NOT the defining factor nor driving interest for many (most?) OSR fans.



It is, however, a label that has several very visible, very un-woke, very outspoken folk, very much seen as core to the OSR's  identity in the eyes of outsiders. In other words, non-members of the movement see those folk as the key defining voices...

And many of them as very toxic.


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## aramis erak

sevenbastard said:


> I mean Race as Class sounds like one of the worst things ever.



Ironically, it's very good for implementing themes for non-humans as rules mechanics...


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## doctorhook

aramis erak said:


> It is, however, a label that has several very visible, very un-woke, very outspoken folk, very much seen as core to the OSR's  identity in the eyes of outsiders. In other words, non-members of the movement see those folk as the key defining voices...
> 
> And many of them as very toxic.



That’s worrisome.

I’m realizing now that I don’t even know who the celebrities and influencers of OSR even are; I don’t follow any talking heads in this sphere (nor in others) so I’m pretty out of the loop about whose voices are perceived as the “leaders” of the OSR. I honestly hadn’t even considered it. I just know a few of my favourite OSR authors: Kevin Crawford and Gavin Norman—and now I’m hoping they’re not horrible troglodytes too.


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## aramis erak

doctorhook said:


> That’s worrisome.
> 
> I’m realizing now that I don’t even know who the celebrities and influencers of OSR even are; I don’t follow any talking heads in this sphere (nor in others) so I’m pretty out of the loop about whose voices are perceived as the “leaders” of the OSR. I honestly hadn’t even considered it. I just know a few of my favourite OSR authors: Kevin Crawford and Gavin Norman—and now I’m hoping they’re not horrible troglodytes too.



SInce I've never heard of those two...
quite likely not. 

Amongst the more openly problematic: Zac Smith, Adam Koebel, RPG Pundit, Satine Phoenix, Jamison Stone, The brothers Gygax, Justin LaNasa....

Some, affiliated with one or more of the above, have high visibility, most especially James Lot (designer/publisher: Legend of the Flame Princess). Jim's got a tendency to make borderline dog-whistle rants from time to time, but note that he's dropped collaboration with Zac and Adam, because he knows, at the end of the day, even if he thinks they're getting a raw deal, he's a businessman, and needs to appear to not be endorsing their misbehaviors. Kind of hard to get a real read on where he sits other than "I've been a victim of the times." Plus, his content is noted for being marked 18+ due to subject matter and lurid art. 

LaNasa and one of the Gygaxes is involved with serious trademark violations, and on top of that, unmistakable dog-whistle elements in "leaked drafts".... Then there are issues with the Gygax boys and Gary's widow... disastrous hostility leading to much bad press. 

Satine and Jamison are being problematic because their kickstarter is late enough, and the creative talents complaining loudly enough that they're not paid, that it's looking like a scam. 

Adam and Zac are both accused of emotional and sexual misbehaviors.

Zac and Satine were involved in the Porn industry - which makes a lot of people uncomfortable with their participation. (Personally, I don't care about that, provided they were not coerced nor doing so to feed drug habits - a lot of porn content is thought to be coerced.)

Pundit has a history of being a total jerk in his forums; many things that get suspensions here (or on the BBS I run) are standard moderator behavior there. Lots of good info, but lots of toxicity.

Then, there are several genuine old timers getting zinged for no-longer acceptable behaviors, most notably, Mr. Mentzer (BECMI D&D collator/editor/designer)...

For those not familiar with the term dog-whistle in this context: A turn of phrase or a symbol that most won't notice, but a suppressed or subversive subculture uses to identify its members.  The neonazis and skinheads have a few dozen... some are numeric (88 or 1488) usually worked into artwork, especially tattoos; some are cleartext with subcontext (such as a former friend of mine having listed _The Turner Diaries_ as a favorite book on his facebook profile = Unfriended immediately once I saw that. Or "AHMK" in a favored book list - stands for _Adolf Hitler's __Mein Kampf_.)


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## doctorhook

aramis erak said:


> SInce I've never heard of those two...
> quite likely not.
> 
> Amongst the more openly problematic: Zac Smith, Adam Koebel, RPG Pundit, Satine Phoenix, Jamison Stone, The brothers Gygax, Justin LaNasa....
> 
> Some, affiliated with one or more of the above, have high visibility, most especially James Lot (designer/publisher: Legend of the Flame Princess). Jim's got a tendency to make borderline dog-whistle rants from time to time, but note that he's dropped collaboration with Zac and Adam, because he knows, at the end of the day, even if he thinks they're getting a raw deal, he's a businessman, and needs to appear to not be endorsing their misbehaviors. Kind of hard to get a real read on where he sits other than "I've been a victim of the times." Plus, his content is noted for being marked 18+ due to subject matter and lurid art.
> 
> LaNasa and one of the Gygaxes is involved with serious trademark violations, and on top of that, unmistakable dog-whistle elements in "leaked drafts".... Then there are issues with the Gygax boys and Gary's widow... disastrous hostility leading to much bad press.
> 
> Satine and Jamison are being problematic because their kickstarter is late enough, and the creative talents complaining loudly enough that they're not paid, that it's looking like a scam.
> 
> Adam and Zac are both accused of emotional and sexual misbehaviors.
> 
> Zac and Satine were involved in the Porn industry - which makes a lot of people uncomfortable with their participation. (Personally, I don't care about that, provided they were not coerced nor doing so to feed drug habits - a lot of porn content is thought to be coerced.)
> 
> Pundit has a history of being a total jerk in his forums; many things that get suspensions here (or on the BBS I run) are standard moderator behavior there. Lots of good info, but lots of toxicity.
> 
> Then, there are several genuine old timers getting zinged for no-longer acceptable behaviors, most notably, Mr. Mentzer (BECMI D&D collator/editor/designer)...
> 
> For those not familiar with the term dog-whistle in this context: A turn of phrase or a symbol that most won't notice, but a suppressed or subversive subculture uses to identify its members.  The neonazis and skinheads have a few dozen... some are numeric (88 or 1488) usually worked into artwork, especially tattoos; some are cleartext with subcontext (such as a former friend of mine having listed _The Turner Diaries_ as a favorite book on his facebook profile = Unfriended immediately once I saw that. Or "AHMK" in a favored book list - stands for _Adolf Hitler's __Mein Kampf_.)



Ahh, yikes. Yeah I had seen a lot of this news on ENWorld, but didn’t follow it closely. I hadn’t really tied any of them to OSR in my mind, but then I never followed any of these people either.

For the record, Kevin Crawford is the author of Stars Without Number and Worlds Without Number, among other games. Gavin Norman is the author of Old School Essentials, which is currently one of the most popular B/X retroclones. But I’m not aware of the political views of either one.


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## R_Chance

doctorhook said:


> Ahh, yikes. Yeah I had seen a lot of this news on ENWorld, but didn’t follow it closely. I hadn’t really tied any of them to OSR in my mind, but then I never followed any of these people either.
> 
> For the record, Kevin Crawford is the author of Stars Without Number and Worlds Without Number, among other games. Gavin Norman is the author of Old School Essentials, which is currently one of the most popular B/X retroclones. But I’m not aware of the political views of either one.



On the Gygaxes, Ernie is the problem child, Luke is afaik OK. Crawford and Norman don't have any issues attached to them. A number of the others mentioned are loud and problematic in any number of ways. They aren't the OSR though. Just the self-promoting and loud types in it. The OSR has a lot of... personality, some good, some bad.


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