# Shhh! No verbal spells aloud.



## Xarlen (Jan 26, 2003)

Okay, here's the situation.

The PCs are basicly in the climactic fight of the campaign, dealing with a powerful wizard. The wizard had several metamagic feats (Empower, Extend, Sicken), but the cleric hit him with a Silence spell. He rolled a 1. 

My players don't usually... well, DO this. This is the first time I've really gotten them to use buff spells and dispels and the like.

What I'd like to know, what spells have S and M only components? I don't want pull a GM fiat, but I would think this wizard would have a little preperation for just such an occasion. I havn't solidified his spell list yet.

So, what spells have no verbal components?


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## Mr Fidgit (Jan 26, 2003)

unless i've missed some...from the PH:

gaseous form, hypnotic pattern*, invisibility to animals, mislead, rainbow pattern*

(* see spell description)


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## Xarlen (Jan 26, 2003)

Wow. That's... minimal.


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## Mr Fidgit (Jan 26, 2003)

there may be some more in other books. do you want me to check what i've got? (FRCS, MaoF, etc.)


[edit - FRCS (a quick look) = none]


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## Xarlen (Jan 26, 2003)

Is it too much of a Dues Ex Machina to pull something like that? 

I'm thinking something like, say, Spinal Tendril. 

Do you have to be able to speak to use a Scroll?


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## Corlon (Jan 26, 2003)

hmm, well, being evil and supposing the characters haven't seen his stats, you could give him silent spell, and cast a silent dispel magic.

on the other thing, I don't know if scrolls require verbal, but even if they do, he could have a silent dispel magic scroll just for this occasion.

there's another item all my spellcasters will have


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## Oni (Jan 26, 2003)

Yes, scrolls require to use the components that spell requires.


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## Xarlen (Jan 26, 2003)

No, I'm not going to pull a Silenced Dispel. I just want to give him a chance to get a spell or two off, otherwise, without resorting to giving him more metamagic.  

I want the PC to feel he did something Really Effective by silencing the wizard. He was taking a Real Chance because the DC of the spell was only 17, and it was a *Will save*, on a spellcaster.


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## Oni (Jan 26, 2003)

Corlon said:
			
		

> *hmm, well, being evil and supposing the characters haven't seen his stats, you could give him silent spell, and cast a silent dispel magic.
> 
> on the other thing, I don't know if scrolls require verbal, but even if they do, he could have a silent dispel magic scroll just for this occasion.
> 
> there's another item all my spellcasters will have  *





This btw  is a terrible practise in my opinion.  The players may as well not have even bothered with silence.  What is the point of a character ability if its just going to be fudged out of existance when they use it effectively?


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## Andion Isurand (Jan 26, 2003)

this is why I like to get a Silent Spell metamagic rod into my character's belt, sooner than later


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## Xarlen (Jan 26, 2003)

Oni said:
			
		

> *
> 
> 
> This btw  is a terrible practise in my opinion.  The players may as well not have even bothered with silence.  What is the point of a character ability if its just going to be fudged out of existance when they use it effectively? *




My sentiments exactly, Oni. I just want to get one or two Interesting spells off, and have the Silence stay on him. Sadly I can't get Tensors Transformation off, but something Else would be good, then he closes in for melee.


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## Oni (Jan 26, 2003)

Personally if I was a wizard who just had silence cast on me, and I didn't really have anyway around it, I would hoof (or try to anyway, this can be hard if your cornered) and try to wait out the spells duration, at least they won't be able to hear you if you can manage to hide well.


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## Xarlen (Jan 26, 2003)

The circumstances don't allow that, Oni. The Wizard is at the moment dealing with a ritual that will cure him of Corruption brought on by blight magic. The PCs are trying to stop the ritual. It's not like he can just fly off.


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## Oni (Jan 26, 2003)

Sounds like they have already disrupted it.  And if he is dead he won't be able to finish it anyway.  

Anywho, just food for thought, hope it works out in a way that is fun for all.


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## Xarlen (Jan 26, 2003)

Well, he doesn't have to be focusing on the ritual at hand for it to proceed. He just needs to be there when it goes.

Of course, the rogue is at the moment screwing up the Summoning Circle, so...

And, they don't PLAN on killing him.\


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## bret (Jan 27, 2003)

Why is Rainbow Pattern bad in this case? Allow the mage to buy himself some time by causing a few of the PCs to (hopefully) become entranced.

Doesn't sound like the NPC wants to kill the PCs, so this sounds like a great way to deal with it. Purification rituals really shouldn't work in the presence of bloodshed.


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## Xarlen (Jan 27, 2003)

Well, the NPC has an entire forest full of Druids, intelligent things, Dragons, so forth wanting to KILL HIM because he's a Blight Magic user. So he's going to be toating some seriously deadly stuff.

And the ritual won't purify him. The Unseelie fey he summons with the ritual will.


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## Pielorinho (Jan 27, 2003)

Hmm.  What about ruling that he'd devoted about half his spell slots to self-buffing spells -- endurance, cat's grace, mage armor, and the like.  And maybe he has a contingency set up that when he blinks his eyes three times in a specific pattern, something beneficial happens.  And maybe his familiar is somewhere nearby, watching and waiting for an opportunity to do something useful.

These would all make the fight somewhat tough, while not negating the silence spell.

Daniel


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## Stalker0 (Jan 27, 2003)

Oni said:
			
		

> *
> 
> 
> This btw  is a terrible practise in my opinion.  The players may as well not have even bothered with silence.  What is the point of a character ability if its just going to be fudged out of existance when they use it effectively? *




Well first of all, the wizard is going to have to use a silenced dispel magic, using up a 4th level spell and an action, so that's a preety good thing in my opinion.

And besides, we have to remember, that its hard to rp certain stats. I may be preety smart, but I don't have an 18 int or anything in real life and I don't live in the wizard's world. He's going to think of things I didn't. I do this with my players, I give some suggestions to player with high ints because penalizing the players for not being able to live up to those high stats is wrong. So in my mind, its equally wrong for the players to lose a chance at an epic battle just because I couldn't keep up with a wizard's int.


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## Piratecat (Jan 27, 2003)

It seems to me that this is where he falls back on one-shot magic items - beads from a necklace of fireballs, potions, and the like. That's much easier, and a bit more kosher, than trying to massage his spells.


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## Darklone (Jan 27, 2003)

At first: Most wizards have SEVERAL spells prepared silently. Second: Craft wands that have no command words but BUTTONS.


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## Forrester (Jan 27, 2003)

Xarlen said:
			
		

> *Okay, here's the situation.
> 
> The PCs are basicly in the climactic fight of the campaign, dealing with a powerful wizard. The wizard had several metamagic feats (Empower, Extend, Sicken), but the cleric hit him with a Silence spell. He rolled a 1. *




Did the cleric hit HIM with a Silence spell, or just cast a Silence spell in the air close to him? 

My understanding of the rules is that one does not get a saving throw in the latter situation, no? (Yes, this makes readied Silence spells very cheaty . . . and perhaps broken enough that a House Rule saying that one gets a Will save regardless is in order.) 

But if you give a Will save for just being in the area, would you get a Will save when *walking* into a Silence 15' radius area, and trying to cast a spell from inside?


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## AuraSeer (Jan 27, 2003)

*Re: Re: Shhh! No verbal spells aloud.*



			
				Forrester said:
			
		

> *
> Did the cleric hit HIM with a Silence spell, or just cast a Silence spell in the air close to him?
> 
> My understanding of the rules is that one does not get a saving throw in the latter situation, no? (Yes, this makes readied Silence spells very cheaty . . . and perhaps broken enough that a House Rule saying that one gets a Will save regardless is in order.) *



Your interpretation is correct. If the spell's target is an unattended object or a point in space, no saving throw or SR is allowed. 

My house rule for readied _Silence_ is to give the victim a Spellcraft check to realize that he's about to be quieted, and then a Concentration check to see if he finishes his casting in time. I peg the DC as for "distracted by nondamaging spell" (see the Concentration skill description).  This does make _Silence_ far less useful as a readied action, because the check should be easy for any decent spellcaster.



> *
> But if you give a Will save for just being in the area, would you get a Will save when *walking* into a Silence 15' radius area, and trying to cast a spell from inside? *



No Will save is allowed, but I've got a house rule for this too. I allow a Listen check (DC 20) to realize that you're about to step into the area of a _Silence_. Succeeding means you realize that there's no sound from that direction, and you can avoid entering that space if you wish. However, you know only about that square-- you don't immediately know the boundaries of the entire spell effect.

[edited for coding


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## Gaiden (Jan 27, 2003)

Xarlen,

If I found out one of my DM's did what you are trying to do I would leave the game.


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## Forrester (Jan 27, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: Shhh! No verbal spells aloud.*



			
				AuraSeer said:
			
		

> *
> My house rule for readied Silence is to give the victim a Spellcraft check to realize that he's about to be quieted, and then a Concentration check to see if he finishes his casting in time. I peg the DC as for "distracted by nondamaging spell" (see the Concentration skill description).  This does make Silence far less useful as a readied action, because the check should be easy for any decent spellcaster.
> *




It's not a bad House rule, but I think it causes problems at higher levels, potentially. A caster with Still Spell and Silent Spell really isn't giving much of a sign that he's casting anything, and so most house rule that Spellcraft checks to detect their spells are pretty tough. IF you go by that, then one could prepare a bunch of meta-magicked 4th level Silence spells that can counter things automatically right and left. 

Of course, you could argue that if the caster is putting that much effort into it (taking two meta-magick feats, memorizing that many silence spells per day), then they deserve to kick some butt.


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## AuraSeer (Jan 27, 2003)

*Forrester*, my house rule actually makes things harder for the caster of _Silence_. If you don't allow the victim some way to avoid the effect, _Silence_ becomes the universal counterspell, automatically foiling anything with a V component. And it's a level lower than _Dispel Magic_, which requires a caster level check.


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## Forrester (Jan 27, 2003)

AuraSeer said:
			
		

> *Forrester, my house rule actually makes things harder for the caster of Silence. If you don't allow the victim some way to avoid the effect, Silence becomes the universal counterspell, automatically foiling anything with a V component. And it's a level lower than Dispel Magic, which requires a caster level check. *




Oh, I know it makes it harder, my point is just that it may not make it hard enough -- that in a high-level campaign, Still Silent _Silence_ spells may not be Spellcraftable by the main spellcaster, and thus would work quite well as 4th level counterspells. 

Also not sure if your solution works against, say, wands of Silence (can you Spellcraft a wand?). But it's at least a good attempt, if not the perfect solution. (Or maybe it is). 

I think in my campaign I'm just going to make it so that for readied Silence spells, the main caster gets a Will save to squeak out that last word or two.


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## Xarlen (Jan 27, 2003)

*Re: Re: Shhh! No verbal spells aloud.*



			
				Forrester said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Did the cleric hit HIM with a Silence spell, or just cast a Silence spell in the air close to him?
> 
> ...




He shot the silence at the wizard, centering it ON the wizard. I made sure of this beforehand.

Thank you for the information Gaiden, but I can't exactly use that. 

I'm trying to make this fight, y'know, Climactic? Not 'Oh, well, now he can't cast any spells. Now let's hit him with ranged attacks and kill him'. It's like Save Or Die.

Unfortunately the spells I'd like him to get off are too High for potions. 

No wands, just scrolls.


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## IceBear (Jan 27, 2003)

Couldn't he have researched some custom spells (even if it's just one's from the PHB at higher levels - you know, a 3rd level spell that's basically magic missle without Verbel components) that don't need Verbal components?  You'd have to leave them in his spellbook, however, if the players should capture it.

As was pointed out, I don't know what exactly an INT18 wizard would have prepared for, but being silenced should be one of them.  Some form of defensive or travel spell that doesn't need a verbal component would be one such preparation.

IceBear


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## Xarlen (Jan 27, 2003)

Yeah, HE should have. I didn't. So that's why I'm asking what's out there? 

I didn't give him Silence spell, so now I'm up a creek.


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## IceBear (Jan 27, 2003)

Sorry, I know that he doesn't have the Silent feat.  I was saying what if he had RESEARCHED a spell that didn't need a verbal component (maybe it has an expensive material component instead).  For example, a 4th level spell that's basically the same as the 2nd level invisibility spell but has no verbal component (instead it requires a 500gp diamond).  This way, the wizard could cast that and attempt to stay hidden until the silence wears off.  The downside is that if the players defeat him and get his spellbook, they have that spell.

If I'm an Int18 wizard and I didn't take the Silent feat, creating spells without verbal components would be my counterplan 

IceBear


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## Xarlen (Jan 27, 2003)

Well, as I said, the players are fighting against time here. The summoning thingie's about to go off, he's trying to prevent them from Stopping it, and so on. So just hiding is really going to screw things up.

Seeing as he's using Blight Magic, I could say that he could use some of the points to jimmy-rig a spell to go off within the silence. 

And seeing as this is the last fight before the game goes on Hiatus, I don't have a problem with it. But damn if I wouldn't mind a spell to inhabilitate a PC or *something*. Because at the moment the PC mage can just fly away from him, and keep peppering him with spells, and the PCs on the ground will keep shooting him...


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## Pielorinho (Jan 27, 2003)

Xarlen said:
			
		

> *Well, as I said, the players are fighting against time here. The summoning thingie's about to go off, he's trying to prevent them from Stopping it, and so on. So just hiding is really going to screw things up.
> *




What if all that's necessary now is chanting?  Does he have a familiar?  Could the wizard's voice suddenly start issuing from the familiar, which is invisible or otherwise hidden in the vicinity?  The wizard would then just try to disrupt the PCs while they frantically search for the hidden chanting familiar.

And maybe as it chants, the circle that the rogue is disrupting could begin to repair itself:  the lines of magic come alive like snakes, and writhe toward one another to reform the circle.  That sort of thing.

Daniel


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## IceBear (Jan 27, 2003)

Xarlen said:
			
		

> *Well, as I said, the players are fighting against time here. The summoning thingie's about to go off, he's trying to prevent them from Stopping it, and so on. So just hiding is really going to screw things up.
> 
> Seeing as he's using Blight Magic, I could say that he could use some of the points to jimmy-rig a spell to go off within the silence.
> 
> And seeing as this is the last fight before the game goes on Hiatus, I don't have a problem with it. But damn if I wouldn't mind a spell to inhabilitate a PC or *something*. Because at the moment the PC mage can just fly away from him, and keep peppering him with spells, and the PCs on the ground will keep shooting him... *




Ok, so instead of my researched invisibilty spell, he has a 5th level spell that lets him cast a fireball without verbal components and requires a 500XP ruby?  I just propsed the invisibility, because I would think the wizard would have planned would to be to go on the defensive when silenced.  Yes, I understand that he can't do that here, but I could forsee researched defensive spells without verbal components more than offensive (and thus, the players might swallow it better).

IceBear


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## Xarlen (Jan 27, 2003)

Actually, the familiar is franticly trying to find the invisible rogue who's destroying the circles' runes. But that is certainly a COOL effect!  I hadn't thought of that.

At the moment, the Blighted Familiar is a Large Raven trying to find the invisible Rogue. But I'll certainly do that. Bwhahaha! 

Any suggestions?


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## bret (Jan 27, 2003)

If you're refitting him in the middle of a battle, just give him a MetaMagic Wand of Silent Spell.

That would allow him to cast three spells while in a Silenced Area. If the PCs still manage to whomp on him, they now get a great magical item for their efforts.


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## AuraSeer (Jan 27, 2003)

bret said:
			
		

> *If you're refitting him in the middle of a battle, just give him a MetaMagic Wand of Silent Spell.*



I think you mean a metamagic rod. [/nitpick] Good idea though.

Come to think of it, a wand of a metamagicked spell would be interesting too. You could give him a wand of Silent _Dispel Magic_ with just a couple of charges remaining.  That way he has a shot at removing the _Silence_ and kicking some ass, and you won't significantly change the treasure balance.


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## Xarlen (Jan 27, 2003)

I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to give them an immense magical item because they caught the DM unawares. Nor am I going to just Trump a cool 1 in a million shot at slowing him down. The cleric shot Him with a silence, and he had a GOOD chance of saving (It's a Will save, a wizard has a high will save, the cleric's DC was low). The enemy wizard rolled a 1. The PC dice were in the PCs favor, it was a cool 'saving' moment, I'm not going to screw him over for that.

 I simply want him to get maybe One spell off. A buff spell, or something like Chains of Vengance, or something to atleast keep the party mage distracted, or something to let him fly down and smack the cleric around or *something*.

Because I have a bad feeling the PC wizard is just going to fly away from him and just shoot him with spells.


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## Corlon (Jan 27, 2003)

Oni said:
			
		

> *
> 
> 
> This btw  is a terrible practise in my opinion.  The players may as well not have even bothered with silence.  What is the point of a character ability if its just going to be fudged out of existance when they use it effectively? *




I never said it wasn't and it would probably get the PCs pissed off, but the way I read it it seemed Xarlen really wanted a way for his wizard who is silenced _not_ to be slaughtered mercilessly, I was just giving some ideaz.

You could let him run away, discretion is the better part of valor, and he who runs away lives to fight another day.

You could have some (more) minions guarding the ritual and stall the PCs while the wizard recovers, or you could just let him die, and say to the PCs that their risk payed off.


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## Xarlen (Jan 27, 2003)

Listen.

He is Alone in this. All of his minions have been killed by the denizens of the forest. He Has to stay there. Hell, he would have stayed in a hemispherical Wall of Force and *Not* came out to fight except the PCs dispelled it. If he Doesn't stay, and Doesnt' complete the ritual, he iis screwed. 

I just want a do a not-so-GM-Fiat to make the game Interesting and climactic, and NOT trump the PCs in the process.


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## Pielorinho (Jan 27, 2003)

If there are runes, what if the chanting raven were able to activate some of the runes in order to summon lesser blighted fey to help?  This might keep the scene going on for awhile longer.

(I had something like this happen IMC awhile ago:  a climactic fight against a wizard was cut abruptly short when, during the first round, a cleric with invisibility purge guessed where the wizard was, flew up to him, and whacked him with a mace coated in paralytic poison.  In order to keep the battle from being lame and anticlimactic, I allowed his raven familiar to fly up to him, snatch the ring of summoning an arcane angel from his finger, and activate it, giving the PCs something meaty to fight.  They all told me afterwards that they were glad I did so; otherwise, the adventure would've ended on a lame note).

Alternately, you say that this guy is known to be infected with some terrible blight, right?  What if he's been trying to hold it in all this time, and when he sees that his circle is destroyed, he gives up?  When he gives up, his body bursts open in classic anime fashion, revealing a nasty blight demon.

Daniel


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## Xarlen (Jan 27, 2003)

I know what I'm going to do.

Here's the situation. There is the summoning circle. I told the PCs if they distort or destroy 3 of the five glyphs making up the circle, that the summoning spell will be disrupted. 

At the moment there's an invisible, hasted, GMF'd rogue, and an invisble, buffed Druid, a familiar with a type of animal growth on it, and a Mord's Faithful Hound.

Two glyphs have been destroyed. 

The circle is going to start repairing itself. There's going to be a magical whiplash, an Implosion, where the magic around the circle gets *sucked* in, as it begins to repair itself, then Explode back out, knocking everyone in the circle away. 

There are two wizards in the air, and a ring of fire trapping the cleric and fighter.

The secound round (No doubt the druid and rogue are going to scramble for the symbols and nail them again), it's going to implode again. This time sucking in the Wall of Fire and the many-layered bouts of magic on the wizards (By this point, the BBEG should be flying back toward the circle).

This not only will make it a scramble to destroy the circle, but also to stop the BBEG from casting spells to feed the repairing.


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## Xarlen (Jan 27, 2003)

Pielorinho said:
			
		

> *If there are runes, what if the chanting raven were able to activate some of the runes in order to summon lesser blighted fey to help?  This might keep the scene going on for awhile longer.
> 
> (I had something like this happen IMC awhile ago:  a climactic fight against a wizard was cut abruptly short when, during the first round, a cleric with invisibility purge guessed where the wizard was, flew up to him, and whacked him with a mace coated in paralytic poison.  In order to keep the battle from being lame and anticlimactic, I allowed his raven familiar to fly up to him, snatch the ring of summoning an arcane angel from his finger, and activate it, giving the PCs something meaty to fight.  They all told me afterwards that they were glad I did so; otherwise, the adventure would've ended on a lame note).
> 
> ...




That's really cool.  I don't think my PCs are prepared (or strong enough) to deal with that. What I plan on happening is if they don't kill him (They don't Plan to), and disrupt the circle, a member of the Unseelie Court will come, angry with the uneffective summons. She will then not only drain the blight of the wizard (What he was wanting to do), but suck out his ability to use magic at all. 

The PCs are trying to prevent him from releasing an Unseelie Fey into the world. Which they will be by screwing up the glyphs on the circle. If they do this, the Fey cannot be set free, but they'll definetly send someone to collect a price for teasing them like that.


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## Plane Sailing (Jan 27, 2003)

I think a general rule that it would be helpful for *anyone* to consider for that BBEG is "what are his contingency plans"?

Many BBEGs are wizards, and they just HAVE to have prepared for silence spells, since it is the number one tactic that people think of against wizards! It would be imbecilic folly for them not to have considered counter-strategies! 

Silent spell (not for dispel magic but for a range of other spells) is an excellent choice, as are magic items which don't require sound, or contingency spells... Did you say that you are prepared to change his spell list, but not his feats? what spells does he have, what level wizard is he?

Cheers


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## Xarlen (Jan 27, 2003)

Well, does it help to say that the Blight made him insane? Then again, he's an insane war wizard, so... 

I just don't want to trump the PCs first usage of different tactics, and a really cool move by the PC. And, suffice to say, I hadn't *Chosen* his spells going into the combat. I had a rough outnline, but I hadn't written anything Down.  So I'm more willing to change the spell-list a little to reflect a little preperation then his Feats, which changing seems more underhanded? 

A feat suggests he would have delt with this a lot, whereas a spell suggests he just has a backup.

And his origional plan was to stay in the Wall of Force.

He's 14th level, at the moment.


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## Hypersmurf (Jan 27, 2003)

There's always the Contingency option - the wizard has a Contingency to trigger off a Silence Spell, to cast Tenser's Transformation.

That way, the party still has the advantages of having nerfed the wizard's spells... but you get a (potentially) exciting melee out of it...

(Admittedly, it relies on the wizard being 18th level to be perfectly legal, but you could make it a one-shot wondrous item or something similar to get around that.)

-Hyp.


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## Xarlen (Jan 27, 2003)

Actually, I used the Contingency option for an Extended Haste at the beginning of combat.


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## Hypersmurf (Jan 27, 2003)

Ah.

Okay, here's something that is highly, highly suspect rules-wise, but hey - you're the DM 

A potion of Ventriloquism.  The spell causes his voice to issue from 30 feet away - which is outside the radius of Silence.  Depending on how you interpret Ventriloquism, this may or may not mean he can speak.  And then you have to decide whether he can use the words issuing from thirty feet away as the verbal component of a spell.

It's not a perfect anti-Silence solution - he's still treated as deafened and has a 20% chance to miscast and lose any spell.  But it's only a 50gp item.

Strictly speaking, Ventriloquism doesn't target a creature, so it's not eligible to be a potion... but it's a small stretch.

-Hyp.


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## Xarlen (Jan 27, 2003)

Sorry, I think my players would kick me in the monkey for that.  It reeks of cheddar.  

Good thought, though.  How does my above thought look?


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## Hypersmurf (Jan 27, 2003)

What did they use to dispel the Wall of Force?

-Hyp.


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## Xarlen (Jan 27, 2003)

Dispel Magic?


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## bret (Jan 27, 2003)

I hope you know that a Wall of Force is immune to _Dispel Magic_...

From the SRD:
...and it is totally unaffected by most spells, including dispel magic. However, disintegrate immediately destroys it, as does a rod of cancellation, a sphere of annihilation, and Mordenkainen?s disjunction.


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## Xarlen (Jan 27, 2003)

Well, the caster was going to destroy it anyways when he buffed up. Too late to retcon it anywho...


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## Shard O'Glase (Jan 27, 2003)

Xarlen said:
			
		

> *Sorry, I think my players would kick me in the monkey for that.  It reeks of cheddar.
> 
> Good thought, though.  How does my above thought look? *




Really, we've ruled that ventriliquism works that way for a long time.  Defense should be easier than offense IMO, and so you get a nice defense to silent spell as a 1st level spell.  Before 3e they had a 1st level spell specifically for silence(probably because they realised how broke it was) called vocalize, for us ventriliquism is out substitute.I guess with the silent feat they didn't want the vocalize spell, though I don't think the feat is a good fix for how broke the spell is.(though in this case with a failed save I'm not as bothered, it could jsut as easily been a hold person that ended the fight, it's the cast it on the fighter and he charges ahead thing that really wrecks the spell, everyone in the area should just get a save)

Now the potion thing might not work technically, but you could have an amulet/wand etc.


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