# Playtesting: IG's 'The Making of Heroes'



## industrygothica (Jan 23, 2008)

It has been a few years since I've been in a face-to-face game.  As is typical in the adult world, real life got in the way and my group have moved on to do much less important things, leaving me in gaming limbo for too long to count.  Luckily, I've had ENWorld to keep me occupied.

As luck would have it, however, I've managed to find a few unfortunate souls who are willing to partake, so it looks like I've got a new group.

Emphasis on _new_.  They've never played before.  Any of them.  I get to teach them all.  Lucky me.

So, I've started designing a simple little introductory adventure to ease everyone into it; there's no reason to go hog wild when you don't know if you're players are going to stick around or not.  However, if I"m going to do it, I want to do it right.  This is where you come in.

I want someone to help me playtest this adventure here on ENWorld before I present it to the players.  I want to be able to give them the most enjoyable experience I can, so that hopefully they'll stick around for a while.

My hope is that while we play the game as normal, the players will offer significant input for each encounter, be it rules elements or just flavor.  Anything from background information to CR adjustments--everything is on the table.  After an encounter is played out, I will give you all of the information I have on it, and take any suggestions or ideas you may have.

The game will be strictly based on 3.5 rules without modification.  It will be a short first level adventure consisting of approximately ten encounters of varying type (combat, logic, social, etc.).

I need four knowledgeable players to create a typical party covering the major areas (arcane, divine, skill-based, warrior).  Unfortunately, the only thing I can offer you in return is my undying gratitude.

Seriously interested players see below for more details.

Thanks in advance,

-IG


IC
RG

----------------​

*Source Material*:
-Core only
-*NO* Psionics

*Character Generation*:
-Characters start at 1st level
-28 point buy
-Average hit points; max at first level
-Maximum starting gold for your starting class
-Do not track experience points (characters will not level up)

*Posting Guidelines*
-At least one post daily is preferred
-Literate posts only.  Please use whole words.
-OOC text should be sblocked or placed in the ooc thread.
-Character speech should be first person, present tense: _"I'm going farther down into the dungeon, you guys can stay here if you want," the surly dwarf said._
-Narrative text should be third person, present tense: _The dwarf hefts his mighty hammer over his shoulder and whistles an ancient tune as he plods deeper down into the damp, dark dungeon._
-Any dice rolling will be handled by the DM unless specifically stated otherwise.  These rolls will be made with actual polyhedron dice, not through _Invisible Castle_ or some other dice rolling program, Proof will not be guaranteed;you'll just have to trust me.
-As a playtest, I fully expect for the OOC thread to get more traffic than the IC thread.  Please remember that this is a discussion as well as a game, and participation in both is expected.

Any questions, ask them here.


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## industrygothica (Jan 24, 2008)

As a kickstart for interested parties: The adventure will start off in Bjorah's Cliff, a small town tucked away on a steep cliff backed by mountains.  A beautiful mountain stream flows through the forest below, too shallow and full of rocks to allow passage for any vessel larger than a small raft or canoe.  

Bjorah's Cliff's main export are leather goods afforded by the nearly limitless supply of wildlife teeming in the forest and mountains surround the area.  Hunters, tanners, and craftsmen work cooperatively for the good of the community, and have together made Bjoran leather goods highly sought after.

_At least, that's what on the plate for now._


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## OnlytheStrong (Jan 24, 2008)

I'll help out the best I can. Core only right? So, just the PH and the DMG?


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## Legildur (Jan 24, 2008)

Throw me in for a dwarf fighter if you like. Happy to contribute.


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## Arkhandus (Jan 24, 2008)

industrygothica said:
			
		

> -Character speech should be first person, present tense: _"I'm going farther down into the dungeon, you guys can stay here if you want," the surely dwarf said._




You said surely when you meant surly.  

Okay, minor nitpick aside: I'm interested.  I've got plenty of computer time now, and I'm all for helping bring new folks into the hobby.

I'll put together and run whatever PC the group needs.  The previous poster already volunteered to run a dwarven fighter, so there's one standard race/class combo done.  I'll run the party's elven rogue, human wizard, halfling cleric, or whatever.


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## Arkhandus (Jan 24, 2008)

While I've got a bit longer on the computer right now, I'll put together the basics for an elven rogue PC.

Irathias Miraviel, elven explorer
[sblock]Male High Elf, Chaotic Good, Rogue 1
Age 120, Height 5'-2", Weight 100 lbs.
Shoulder-Length Black Hair, Dark Green Eyes, Slightly Pale Skin
Str 14, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 12

HP 7/7, AC 14, Touch AC 12, Flat-Footed AC 12
BAB +0, Initiative +2, Speed 30 ft., Fort +1, Ref +4, Will +0

Languages: Common, Draconic, Elven, Sylvan

Feat: Nimble Fingers (+2 Disable Device/Open Lock)

Skills: Balance +5 (3 ranks, +2 Dex), Climb +5 (3 ranks, +2 Str), Disable Device +10 (4 ranks, +2 Int, +2 feat, +2 MW tools), Hide +6 (4 ranks, +2 Dex), Listen +6 (4 ranks, +0 Wis, +2 racial), Move Silently +6 (4 ranks, +2 Dex), Open Lock +10 (4 ranks, +2 Int, +2 feat, +2 MW tools), Search +8 (4 ranks, +2 Int, +2 racial), Sleight of Hand +5 (3 ranks, +2 Dex), Spot +6 (4 ranks, +0 Wis, +2 racial), Swim +3 (1 rank, +2 Str), Use Rope +3 (1 rank, +2 Dex)

Class Features: Sneak Attack +1d6, Trapfinding, proficiency in light armors, simple weapons, hand crossbows, rapiers, saps, shortbows, and short swords

Racial Traits: +2 Dex, -2 Con, Medium-sized humanoid (elf), speed 30 feet, low-light vision, immune to magic sleep spells and effects, +2 on saves against Enchantment spells and effects, +2 Listen, +2 Search, +2 Spot, can notice secret or concealed doors with a Search check when passing within 5 feet, proficiency in longswords, proficiency in rapiers, proficiency in longbows and composite longbows proficiency in shortbows and composite shortbows, favored class: wizard

Gear: Longsword (+2 melee, 1d8+3 slashing damage, 19-20/x2 critical), Dagger (+2 melee or +2 ranged, 1d4+2 piercing/slashing damage, 19-20/x2 critical, 10 ft. throwing increment), Shortbow (+2 ranged, 1d6 piercing, 20/x3 critical), 20 arrows, Leather Armor (+2 AC, -0 check penalty), Masterwork Thieves' Tools (+2 Disable Device and Open Lock), Traveler's Outfit (worn outfit does not count towards encumbrance), Backpack, Belt Pouch, Bedroll, Map Case, Torch, 2 Pieces of Chalk, Flint and Steel, Grappling Hook, 50-ft. Silk Rope, Whetstone, Soap, 2 Waterskins, 2 Trail Rations, 20 gp, 12 sp, 15 cp

Current Load: 56.94 pounds
Light Load: 58 pounds, Medium Load: 116 pounds, Heavy Load: 175 pounds

Background: Irathias hails from the town of Bjorah's Cliff, eldest child of the small Miraviel elven family that has lived at the edge of town for two generations.  They've been living there as craftspeople since leaving a larger, more complicated elven city.  Irathias has a younger brother and sister, twins, half his age.  The Miraviels prefer the relative isolation of living out here among humans and others, but Irathias himself is more inquisitive and curious, seeking out chances to explore and find his own path.

Irathias has been a somewhat troublesome youth, going places he shouldn't and sometimes spiriting away any interesting or valuable items that have caught his interest.  He's kind of greedy for an elf, but usually avoids stealing from people.  Usually.  So instead he looks for other ways to make money and accumulate precious things  He also loves to just go out and explore nooks and crannies and other such places.[/sblock]


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## Legildur (Jan 24, 2008)

Draft character:
[sblock=Dowkan, dwarf Fighter 1]
HPS 13/13


```
[B]Name:[/B] Dowkan Jarand, Weradan Clan
[B]Class:[/B] Ftr1
[B]Race:[/B] Dwarf
[B]Size:[/B] Medium
[B]Gender:[/B] Male
[B]Alignment:[/B] Neutral Good
[B]Deity:[/B] Moradin

[B]Str:[/B] 16 +3 (10p.)     [B]Level:[/B] 1        [B]XP:[/B] 0/1000
[B]Dex:[/B] 12 +1  (4p.)     [B]BAB:[/B] +1         [B]HP:[/B] 13 (1d10+3)
[B]Con:[/B] 16 +3  (6p.)     [B]Grapple:[/B] +4     [B]Dmg Red:[/B] -/-
[B]Int:[/B] 10 +0  (2p.)     [B]Speed:[/B] 20ft     [B]Spell Res:[/B] -
[B]Wis:[/B] 12 +1  (4p.)     [B]Init:[/B] +1        [B]Poison/Spell Save:[/B] +2
[B]Cha:[/B]  8 -1  (2p.)     [B]ACP:[/B] -6         [B]Spell Fail:[/B] -

                   [B]Base  Armor Shld   Dex  Size   Nat  Misc  Total[/B]
[B]Armor:[/B]              10    +5    +2    +1    +0    +0    +0    18
[B]Touch:[/B] 11              [B]Flatfooted:[/B] 17

                         [B]Base   Mod  Misc  Total[/B]
[B]Fort:[/B]                      2    +3          +5
[B]Ref:[/B]                       0    +1          +1
[B]Will:[/B]                      0    +1          +1

[B]Weapon                  Attack   Damage     Critical[/B]

Melee:
dwarven waraxe (1H)          +5   1d10+3     20x3
dwarven waraxe (2H)          +5   1d10+4     20x3
throwing axe                 +4    1d6+3     20x2
spiked gauntlet              +4    1d4+3     20x2

Ranged:
throwing axe               +2      1d6+3     20x2
sling                      +2      1d4+3     20x2

[B]Languages:[/B] Common, Dwarven.

[B]Abilities:[/B] Darkvision 60ft, Stonecunning, Weapon familiarity, Stability,
+2 racial bonus against poison, spells, and spell-like effects, +1 racial
bonus on attack rolls against orcs and goblinoids, +4 Dodge bonus to AC
against giant types, +2 racial bonus to Appraise and craft checks for
stone and metal, proficient with all simple and martial weapons, and with
all armor (light, medium, and heavy armor) and all shields (including tower
shields).

[B]Feats:[/B] Power Attack, Weapon Focus (waraxe).

[B]Skill Points:[/B] 8       [B]Max Ranks:[/B] 4/2
[B]Skills                   Ranks  Mod  Misc  Total[/B]
Appraise (stone & metal)   0    +0    +2    +2
Balance                    0    +1    -6    -5
Climb                      0    +3    -6    -3
Jump                       4    +3   -12    -5
Listen                     0    +1          +1
Search (stonework)         0    +0    +2    +2
Spot                       0    +1          +1
Swim                       4    +3   -12    -5


[B]Equipment: 240gp               Cost  Weight[/B]
Dwarvencraft Waraxe  30gp    8lb
Throwing Axe               8gp    2lb
Spiked Gauntlet       5gp    1lb
Sling
10 sling bullets      1sp    5lb

Chain Mail    150gp   40lb
Hvy Wooden Shield  7gp    10lb

Backpack                  2gp    2lb
Bedroll                   1sp    5lb
Crowbar                   2gp    5lb
Grappling hook            1gp    4lb
Belt pouch                1gp  0.5lb
100ft silk rope          20gp   10lb
Waterskin                 1gp    4lb
Whetstone                 2cp    1lb
Rations, trail (7)      3.5gp    7lb
Explorer's outfit         0gp    0lb
4x Sunrod                 8gp    4lb

[B]Total Weight:[/B]108.5lb      [B]Money:[/B] 8sp 8cp

[B]Age:[/B] 54
[B]Height:[/B] 4'3"
[B]Weight:[/B] 180lb
[B]Eyes:[/B] brown
[B]Hair:[/B] brown
[B]Skin:[/B] deep tan
```
[/sblock]


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## WarShrike (Jan 24, 2008)

I'll help out. I faced the same situation last year, breaking in a group of people that never played before but wanted to learn. We play nearly every Friday now. If it's not taken yet, i can play the Cleric.


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## WarShrike (Jan 24, 2008)

[SBLOCK=Thogrim]

Name: Thogrim
Race: Half Orc
Class: Cleric
Diety: Heironeous
Domains: Good, War
Align: L-G
HPs: 10
XPs: 0

Str: 18 (10 pts, +2 Racial)
Dex: 10 (2 pts)
Con: 14 (6 pts)
Int: 8 (2 pts, -2 Racial)
Wis: 15 (8 pts)
Cha: 6 (-2 Racial)

BAB: +0
AC: 16, Touch: 10, Flat Footed: 16
Fort: +4
Refl: +0
Will: +4
Move: 30'
Init: +0
Listen/Spot: +2
Loads: Light: 0-100 / Medium 101 - 200 / Heavy 201 - 300
Darkvision 60'
Orc Blood

Weapons:
Longsword -- +5 To Hit, 1d8+4 Damage (19-20 x2)

Skills:
Concentration: +6 (4 Ranks, +2 Con Mod)

Feats:
*Class Granted*
Weapon Proficiency -- Longsword
Weapon Focus -- Longsword
*Chosen*
Combat Casting

Equipment: 200gp
Longsword 15gp  4lbs
Hvy Stl Shield 20gp  15lbs
Chain Shirt  100gp  25 lbs

Backpack 2gp  2lbs
Bedroll 1sp  5lbs
Scroll Case 1gp  1/2lbs
Flint and Steel 1gp
Pouch, Belt 1gp  1/2lbs
Rations x10 5gp  10lbs
50' Rope, Silk 10gp, 5lbs
Soap 1gp  2lbs
Waterskin 1gp  4lbs
Whetstone 2cp  1lbs

Total Cost: 157gp, 1sp, 2cp
Left Over: 42gp, 8sp, 8cp

Total Weight: 74lbs
[/SBLOCK]


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## industrygothica (Jan 24, 2008)

Arkhandus said:
			
		

> You said surely when you meant surly.
> 
> Okay, minor nitpick aside: I'm interested.  I've got plenty of computer time now, and I'm all for helping bring new folks into the hobby.
> 
> I'll put together and run whatever PC the group needs.  The previous poster already volunteered to run a dwarven fighter, so there's one standard race/class combo done.  I'll run the party's elven rogue, human wizard, halfling cleric, or whatever.




Duly noted and corrected.  I appreciate that probably more than you realize, actually.

All the characters look good at first glance.  I'm assuming you all know how to create characters, so I'm not going to bother tearing them down to examine them.  If we find an error later, we'll just fix it and move on.

WarShrike: Either I'm blind, or you haven't listed Thogrim's hp (I'm betting on me being blind, personally).  I'll let you know in advance that the main protagonists in this story will be orcs, so hopefully that won't be an issue with your character.

As far as I'm concerned, you're all in.  I'd like someone to fill the arcane roll, but I'll settle for a ranger as well; Bjorah's Cliff is surrounded by open wilderness, so someone with a survival skill would be beneficial as well.

Thanks again.


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## OnlytheStrong (Jan 24, 2008)

I'll play the elven ranger. Got a soft spot for them  I'll have it posted later today.


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## industrygothica (Jan 24, 2008)

OnlytheStrong said:
			
		

> I'll play the elven ranger. Got a soft spot for them  I'll have it posted later today.




Excellent.  I'll get the other threads up today as well.

To everyone else: Character spots are full, but if anyone else has any ideas or input and wants to contribute, I'll be more than appreciative.


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## OnlytheStrong (Jan 24, 2008)

I'm kind of in the opposite situation from you guys. We had a group that gamed once or twice a week........... and now we never get together. I miss it  lol


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## industrygothica (Jan 24, 2008)

OnlytheStrong said:
			
		

> I'm kind of in the opposite situation from you guys. We had a group that gamed once or twice a week........... and now we never get together. I miss it  lol




It's been a couple of years since I was in a face to face group.  It may be a month or so still until I can get this one together as well; hopefully things will stay on track until then.  At lest it'll give us plenty of time to get things ironed out.


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## OnlytheStrong (Jan 24, 2008)

How is your group going to decide on stats? Just like the book and roll? If at all possible, I'd like to stick to your idea as closely as we can. Heck, I'd like to think that if they wanted, they could just pick up my elf and play him. I am assuming that since they are totally new, it's going to be pretty much by the book. So........ that's how I will build him lol.


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## OnlytheStrong (Jan 24, 2008)

double post, sorry.


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## OnlytheStrong (Jan 24, 2008)

Okay, here's my rolls. I'm happy with them  13,11,13,18,10,13


Elf Ranger for Industrygothica's Playtest (4d6.takeHighest(3) =13, 4d6.takeHighest(3) =11, 4d6.takeHighest(3) =13, 4d6.takeHighest(3) =18, 4d6.takeHighest(3) =10, 4d6.takeHighest(3) =13)


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## industrygothica (Jan 24, 2008)

OnlytheStrong said:
			
		

> How is your group going to decide on stats? Just like the book and roll? If at all possible, I'd like to stick to your idea as closely as we can. Heck, I'd like to think that if they wanted, they could just pick up my elf and play him. I am assuming that since they are totally new, it's going to be pretty much by the book. So........ that's how I will build him lol.




One thing that I've picked up from ENWorld that I will be taking to the table with me as well is the point buy system.  Never used it before I started playing here, but now that I have I love it.  The creation guidelines are in the first post.  Characters should be built using 28 points.  That is, I believe, standard for point buy.


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## OnlytheStrong (Jan 24, 2008)

Aramil Amastacia  


```
Race: Elf
Class: Ranger
Height: 5'4''
Weight: 116lbs


Str: 14
Dex: 18  (16 + 2 racial)
Con: 10 (12 - 2 racial)
Int: 10
Wis: 12
Cha: 10


Speed: 30ft

HP: 8

Initiative: +4

AC:  17  = 10 + 3 armor + 4 dex

Saving Throws:
   Fort: 2  (2 base + 0 con)
   Ref: 6 (2 base + 4 dex)
   Will: 1 (0 base + 1 wis)

Base Attack Bonus:  +1  
   Longbow   to hit: +5   dmg: 1d8  crit: x3  range: 100ft
   Rapier    to hit: +5   dmg: 1d6+2  crit: 18-20x2


Skills:  (6+int)x4 = 24
   Hide:   8   (4 ranks + 4 dex)
   Knowledge (nature):  4    (4 ranks + 0 int)
   Listen:   7  (4 ranks + 1 wis + 2 racial)
   Move Silently:   8     (4 ranks + 4 dex)
   Spot:    7   (4 ranks + 1 wis +2 racial)
   Survival:  5    (4 ranks + 1 wis)

Feat:
   Weapon Finesse

Class Skills:
   Favored Enemy (goblinoid)
         +2 on Bluff, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot, Survival, and weapon dmg
   Track
   Wild Empathy
   
Racial Traits:
   Immunity to sleep effects, and a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantments spells or effects.
   Low Light Vision
   +2 on Listen, Search and Spot checks
   
Languages:
   Common
   Elven

[sblock=Equipment]
Longbow  75gp
Rapier   20gp
Studded Leather 25gp
Hooded Lantern 1gp
Waterskin  1gp
Silk Rope  10gp
Small Steel Mirror  10gp
Wooden Holy Symbol 1gp

Total:  143gp       97gp remaining

[/sblock]
```


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## industrygothica (Jan 24, 2008)

I've added the links to the other game threads to the first post.  This will serve nicely as our discussion thread.


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## WarShrike (Jan 24, 2008)

You were right, i forgot the HPs. Fighting Orcs won't be a problem for Thogrim.


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## industrygothica (Jan 24, 2008)

Only: Would you mind sblocking your character in the RG thread, please?

Legildur has the right of it, I think, in that I was planning it being trade season (if there is a season).  My initial thoughts to getting everything on the road was to have a missing caravan somewhere.

Ideas?


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## OnlytheStrong (Jan 24, 2008)

lol yeah, just did it. I copied it over there, then read where it was supposed to be sblocked. Sorry!


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## Legildur (Jan 25, 2008)

industrygothica said:
			
		

> Legildur has the right of it, I think, in that I was planning it being trade season (if there is a season).  My initial thoughts to getting everything on the road was to have a missing caravan somewhere.
> 
> Ideas?



I was just trying to think of why a dwarf would be there. Trade seemed the most likely reason. I'm not too good at the ideas stuff around plot hooks.

Maybe word came from a caravan on the way into Bjorah's Cliff that has been attacked and there is a call for a small group of volunteers to go out and meet it to help escort it in? More a show of force deterrent than anything else as the caravan fended off the attack.  Then maybe meet a later survivor on the road that explains that the caravan has since been overrun by a second attack of orcs and looted. That would give the hook for the ranger to follow the tracks.


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## OnlytheStrong (Jan 25, 2008)

The ranger is pretty much following the caravan....... maybe he could be the one that  goes for help when they get attacked?


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## Arkhandus (Jan 25, 2008)

Most likely, if it's 'trade season' or the like, there could be a caravan that's scheduled to visit Bjorah's Cliff this week each year, say it's the first week of the month (summer or fall maybe?).  It's been coming to town at that time every year for years and years, but now it's been a few days and they're not in town yet.

Last anyone heard (by the last courier or other horseman coming towards Bjorah's Cliff on other business, traveling faster than the goods-laden caravan), the caravan had left the last big town a few days ago (or weeks ago, as appropriate), on time as always.  But hasn't been heard from since it set out from there.

And perhaps there's been talk lately of an orc tribe or bandit gang or whatever passing by a nearby village, causing some worry.

Irathias could be an old friend of Aramil, following him at the moment or seeing signs of trouble while exploring some of the nearby wilderness, then going to inform his friend, maybe.  Hrm.


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## OnlytheStrong (Jan 25, 2008)

An armed party passing through the woods would attract attention from just about anyone in it. My elf included. He would have to wonder what brought a village up in arms. I would think a druid would be the same way, but for different reasons. Basically, if an armed group makes its way into the forest, a ranger or druid will eventually learn of it and investigate.


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## industrygothica (Jan 25, 2008)

I don't think there's much in the way of civilization between Bjorah's Cliff and the edge of the forest, probably close to a week's trek.  It'd be a small trail through the forest to Bjorah's Cliff, well known but not often traveled; most would likely prefer to travel the edge of the forest than hack their way through it, except during trading season. There are probably more Bjoran's heading out of town to trade than there are others coming in, though there'd still be a few visitors.

What if Aramil has made a habit of following caravans out of town to a certain point--a designated intersection connecting paths to the east and south--and camping there until he meets an incoming caravan to escort into the city?  It'd be perhaps a day's more travel on the southern route where the orcs have set up camp, explaining why he wouldn't have noticed them.

If he'd kept this up for some time, there'd be plenty of time for an outgoing shipment to have been raided and not arrived at its destination, as Arkhandus has stated (only outgoing instead of incoming).  I'd think they'd send a messenger of sorts to find why their shipment hasn't arrived.  I don't think the orcs would bother with a lone rider blazing through the trail, and he'd likely pass unaware of them as well.


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## industrygothica (Jan 25, 2008)

By no means am I a cartographer, but hopefully this will give you an idea of what I have in mind.


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## industrygothica (Jan 25, 2008)

So I'm thinking I'd like to flesh out this tavern a bit, but can't think of a name to save my life.  I even tried rolling randomly on the table from DMG II, but I didn't like any of those either.

I hadn't really thought about it before, but when Legildur mentioned it, I thought it might be nice to have a place the PCs would look forward to coming back to.  I don't think a full-on inn is really necessary, being that Bjorah's Cliff probably doesn't get a lot of visitors, but somewhere with a strong fire in the hearth and an even stronger ale would be welcomed sight for the men coming in off the hunt.

What do you think would make a nice addition to the tavern, other than a memorable barkeep and server?


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## OnlytheStrong (Jan 25, 2008)

Rock Bottom (tavern name) Okay, so it's sorta corny, but I like it.


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## Arkhandus (Jan 25, 2008)

Yeah, that's good.  

The local watering hole.  Nothin' special, just a big room with a big fireplace at one end, a cooking pit and some barrels of ale at the other end, and some tables and chairs.  At night, folks are welcome to throw some blankets or animal hides on the floor near the fireplace to sleep if they're just in town for a bit, not havin' a house of their own in Bjorah's Cliff.  Behind the tavern, or just next to the cooking pit, the owner has a small distillery of their own for brewing ale.  Dirt floors, nothin' fancy.  But great roasts and stews from the local hunters and potato farmers, maybe.


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## WarShrike (Jan 25, 2008)

Wenches!


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## industrygothica (Jan 25, 2008)

Strange.  I had replied to this post once, but apparently I closed it out before I saved it.  Go figure.

Anyway, I like it.  This is why I love collaborative efforts.

The Rock Bottom Tavern it is.  I think I'll go and stat up an npc or two to run the place now.


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## OnlytheStrong (Jan 25, 2008)

You could go the simple route (which would be far easier and probably more appropriate) or you could go the other extreme and make it a beautiful place to be. Nice oaken floors, a huge fire pit in the middle of the tavern. Let's try describing it lol. Disclaimer, this may suck:

[sblock=Sorta a story] You walk into the Rock Bottom expecting it to live up to its name. Your jaw drops as you enter, trying to absorb every detail of this place. To your right, a couple of small tables and chairs, then the wall. Straight ahead of you on the other side of the room is the bar, running nearly half the length of the tavern. You're eyes fall on a lovely tavern wench, who smiles and invites you to sit at the bar. Your boots click loudly on the oak floor and you are amazed as you glance up to see a chandolier made from antlers above your head. You sit on the padded barstool and order your favorite drink, which the bartender brings to you almost instantly. You glance to the left, toward the end of the bar and see the stairs leading up apparently to where you will stay for the night. 

A loud bang comes from behind you as the door slams open. The bartender gives a hollar as it happens, you turn expecting the worst. A hunter, back with a kill of some exotic beast, has thought to increase his fame by sharing the spoils of his hunt and the tale of course. The wench that greeted you hurries into some room that is hidden by the stairwell (which finishes off that side of the room near the bar) and returns with what looks like a long iron rod. She impales the newly dead creature and, with help, hoists him over the fire. The tavern patrons ew and ah at the man's story, amazed that he survived it at all. 

You return to your drink, turning every once in a while to look around the room. Behind you and to the left you see more tables, as well as the firepit that was currently roasting dinner. Children rushed to the hunters' feet to listen to his ever growing tale. The wench cuts into the beast, more than happy to serve the tavern patrons. You eat the meat greedily, you have been on the road for weeks after all. Tossing coins on the bar, you retreat up the stairs. You finally notice the animal heads on the wall, but oddly only on one side. The other side had paintings and rather expensive looking figurines on it. You shake your head. This place didn't fit its name at all............[/sblock]


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## industrygothica (Jan 26, 2008)

OnlytheStrong said:
			
		

> You could go the simple route (which would be far easier and probably more appropriate) or you could go the other extreme and make it a beautiful place to be. Nice oaken floors, a huge fire pit in the middle of the tavern. Let's try describing it lol. Disclaimer, this may suck:
> 
> [sblock=Sorta a story] You walk into the Rock Bottom expecting it to live up to its name. Your jaw drops as you enter, trying to absorb every detail of this place. To your right, a couple of small tables and chairs, then the wall. Straight ahead of you on the other side of the room is the bar, running nearly half the length of the tavern. You're eyes fall on a lovely tavern wench, who smiles and invites you to sit at the bar. Your boots click loudly on the oak floor and you are amazed as you glance up to see a chandolier made from antlers above your head. You sit on the padded barstool and order your favorite drink, which the bartender brings to you almost instantly. You glance to the left, toward the end of the bar and see the stairs leading up apparently to where you will stay for the night.
> 
> ...




To be honest, this is sort of what I had in mind to begin with, but then I liked the other idea so much that I left it alone.  I like the idea of the chandelier made out of antlers.  The relative that hosts our family reunion every year actually has one, and it's beautiful, and extremely appropriate.  I might even have a picture of it somewhere.  The hunters telling tales of the catch is also a nice touch

Think there's any way we can combine the two ideas?  Maybe a more formal setting in the front, with the polished floors and blazing fireplace, and a more primitive back room with the cooking pit and barrels of ale, somewhere for the men to gather and get loud both before and after the hunt.


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## OnlytheStrong (Jan 26, 2008)

Combining the two would make an interesting setting. You could even go as far as making "two halves" of the same building. Maybe a part that was meant for the ....... less fortunate people in society. Although I really hate the idea of discrimination, it could fit that way. 

I don't really know though. I'd like to hear ideas on combining it also.


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## Legildur (Jan 26, 2008)

Just noticed that Aramil has Favoured Enemy (goblinoid). Wouldn't he be better suit with the Orc subtype for this one-shot?


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## OnlytheStrong (Jan 26, 2008)

I didn't know if we would run more into goblins or orcs..... it's an easy fix though, if it's allowed to be changed


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## industrygothica (Jan 26, 2008)

OnlytheStrong said:
			
		

> I didn't know if we would run more into goblins or orcs..... it's an easy fix though, if it's allowed to be changed




Definitely more orcs.  You're more than welcome to change it if you want to.

WarShrike: Will Thogrim be joining us in the IC thread?


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## WarShrike (Jan 26, 2008)

Yuppers.


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## industrygothica (Jan 26, 2008)

Only: I'm a little confused with Aramil's actions.  Is he planning on waiting and catching up, or does he want to involve himself in the meeting before their departure?  If so, now is a good time to interrupt the meeting and declare your intentions.


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## OnlytheStrong (Jan 26, 2008)

Yeah well............ I was confused by them too lol. I thought about having him march right into town, ask what is going on, then volunteer.  The more I thought of it though, the less like him it is. He will follow, but I will be sure to do something dumb enough for the group to notice me. Sorry for the confusion. I'm trying to make this easy yet still kind of well........ ranger-ish lol.


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## industrygothica (Jan 26, 2008)

OnlytheStrong said:
			
		

> Yeah well............ I was confused by them too lol. I thought about having him march right into town, ask what is going on, then volunteer.  The more I thought of it though, the less like him it is. He will follow, but I will be sure to do something dumb enough for the group to notice me. Sorry for the confusion. I'm trying to make this easy yet still kind of well........ ranger-ish lol.




I see no reason why you couldn't be a known associate of the town (as I already hinted at Jorgan knowing you anyway), a respected scout and a bit of a protector, if you will (though at this level there's only so much protecting one can do).  And I also think it'd make perfect sense for Aramil to want to tag along, since chances are he guided the caravan to the intersection anyway.


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## OnlytheStrong (Jan 26, 2008)

Makes good enough sense for me! I'm going to just edit that last post and have him marching into town.


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## industrygothica (Jan 26, 2008)

OnlytheStrong said:
			
		

> Makes good enough sense for me! I'm going to just edit that last post and have him marching into town.




May be good to have him follow then into the Mayor's office at the last minute, for dramatic effect, if nothing else.  That, and it'll keep me from having to edit my post as well.


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## OnlytheStrong (Jan 26, 2008)

No worries, I'll have him following the half-orc, since he'd be easier to see than the dang ol' small dwarf!


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## Legildur (Jan 26, 2008)

Better not be any short jokes!


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## Legildur (Jan 26, 2008)

I'll be out of contact for 36 hours... Please NPC as needed.


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## industrygothica (Jan 28, 2008)

Reference the map if you're not clear on the location.  We're about a third of the way up on the trail, just after the first curve.

I've deliberately made the trip long enough so that PCs will have to figure out a way to survive in the wild.


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## industrygothica (Jan 31, 2008)

I was a little worried about the bear's CR and her potential to take out a 1st level PC with one hit, but it looks like things will work out.  I may use a wolf in the face-to-face game, just for a little extra insurance.  Thoughts?


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## OnlytheStrong (Jan 31, 2008)

The bear isn't bad, but I think it all depends on how your party is set up. A raging barbarian (with good rolls) could kill the bear by himself. For storytelling purposes, I would use some sort of animal that hunts alone, so that they aren't wondering where the heck the pack is. Unless that is what your going for


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## industrygothica (Jan 31, 2008)

OnlytheStrong said:
			
		

> The bear isn't bad, but I think it all depends on how your party is set up. A raging barbarian (with good rolls) could kill the bear by himself. For storytelling purposes, I would use some sort of animal that hunts alone, so that they aren't wondering where the heck the pack is. Unless that is what your going for




Nope, and that's actually why I used the bear here - I was just thinking that it might be a bit much for new players.


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## Arkhandus (Jan 31, 2008)

Yeah.  It might be a bit strong for new players to face, but it all depends.  It's certainly within their ability to defeat it, but it kind of depends on how they react for the first round or two.

I don't think another kind of animal is needed, but _maybe_ for the new folks, have the bear be Fatigued, so it can't run or charge and gets -2 Strength and Dexterity.  How and why it got fatigued I'm not sure, but maybe something else drove it away from its den, and it's been searching for a decent meal ever since.  I dunno.


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## Legildur (Feb 1, 2008)

Barring a critical hit, most 1st level warriors wouldn't be killed.  If there is a cleric on board then they would be okay afterwards.  And if it starts to get ugly, then you could have the wounded animal flee - which is not an unreasonable response.


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## industrygothica (Feb 1, 2008)

Legildur said:
			
		

> Barring a critical hit, most 1st level warriors wouldn't be killed.  If there is a cleric on board then they would be okay afterwards.  And if it starts to get ugly, then you could have the wounded animal flee - which is not an unreasonable response.




Assuming, of course, that it's not the cleric that went charging in nearly getting himself killed.  But I don't know anyone that'd do that. 

But you're right in that fleeing is a perfectly reasonable response, and a quick way out of a bad situation.  Not a bad option at all.



			
				Arkhandus said:
			
		

> Yeah. It might be a bit strong for new players to face, but it all depends. It's certainly within their ability to defeat it, but it kind of depends on how they react for the first round or two.
> 
> I don't think another kind of animal is needed, but maybe for the new folks, have the bear be Fatigued, so it can't run or charge and gets -2 Strength and Dexterity. How and why it got fatigued I'm not sure, but maybe something else drove it away from its den, and it's been searching for a decent meal ever since. I dunno.




I suppose there's also nothing that says I can't start it at half hit points... maybe already injured from a trap set out by an overzealous hunter wanting to get an early start on the season?  Hell, that's another adventure right there... who's killing all the animals?

Maybe for level 2.


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## Arkhandus (Feb 1, 2008)

Well, making it injured would just make it more likely to drop in the first or second round (possibly before it gets to do anything, if the party goes at it with bows and crossbows right off the bat).  Fatigue just means it won't charge anyone 1st round (just move and attack once normally, or double-move) and will hit a bit less hard with a bit less accuracy.

The only real danger in it is that the bear can probably maul a warrior to unconsciousness or death in 1 round of full-attack.  Otherwise, the party cleric or whatnot could likely keep the first victim alive while the group works together to slay it.

Still, it's probably within their abilities as-is, I'm just thinking that fatigue might mitigate the chances of the party losing 1 or 2 reckless newbies in their first battle (though otherwise unlikely).


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## Arkhandus (Feb 1, 2008)

OOC note on the IC thread: Irathias dropped his bow last round after shooting, and drew his sword.  He would've charged this round.


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## industrygothica (Feb 1, 2008)

*Jorgan DeLansing*

Would you believe that I've already got a history planned out for this kid, and here you go trying to send him back through the woods in the dead of night all by himself.  Geez!


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## WarShrike (Feb 1, 2008)

I don't see the bear playing with it's food. I'd put the kid up in a tree. Also, a bear gets 3 attacks during a full attack, so that theoretical enraged charging barbarian _better_ kill it with one attack, or he's dead. I might use a boar as they only have 1 attack.


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## OnlytheStrong (Feb 1, 2008)

I've killed a black bear before with a level 1 barbarian, only survived because I raged at the right time. A boar is a good idea though. 

The only thing with putting the kid in a tree is that he will still be having to go home by himself. I had Aramil suggest going home now, for a couple of "real life" reasons. Scavengers will be coming soon, some of which would rather have fresh meat, if that bear was a cub (which it wasn't, but could be in the table top game), then momma bear will be coming in a hurry, and that if he follows the same path we took coming in, most animals would stay clear of it. Btw, the advice I gave him..... really works. Acting big and tough when a bear is around will _usually_ convince them you aren't food, which is all a person can ask for.


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## WarShrike (Feb 1, 2008)

I don't see how putting the kid in the tree makes it so he has to go home alone. Once the players kill the bear, there's nothing stopping him from coming down.


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## OnlytheStrong (Feb 2, 2008)

Oh, you meant while the bear was alive? lol I misread your post then.... ignore me.


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## WarShrike (Feb 2, 2008)

Heh, my bad for putting it down wrong. I meant when we arrive at the scene, the child should be up in a tree with the bear trying to get at him.


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## industrygothica (Feb 6, 2008)

I've been toying with this idea for a bit.  If the PCs decide they want to keep a cub (or two, I guess) there might possibly be a trainer for hire in Bjorah's Cliff.  It makes a bit of sense, really, considering that a lot of hunters use animals for assistance.

Of course this training would take time and be quite costly, I'm sure, so they wouldn't have the added benefit of a bear companion right off, but possibly after a level or two and a good bit of gold it could certainly be a possibility.

How much would taming and training a bear cub cost?  Since there are two cubs (assuming the party only wanted to keep one), would the trainer give a discounted rate in exchange for one of them?

Secondly, I have a rules question on this subject:  Assuming a PC can get a wild animal's attention (wild empathy, perhaps), are ranks in Handle Animal and a successful roll all that's needed (other than the allotted time, of course) to train that animal?  Almost seems too easy to me, but maybe I'm missing something.


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## OnlytheStrong (Feb 6, 2008)

Good idea with the trainer. I would say that he would get one helluva price for a bear cub. So it might actually be a fair trade, give 1 and keep 1. I am alittle tired right now since I got like..... 3 hours of sleep, but I will think it over and post again later today, after I rest.  Good idea though.


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## Scott DeWar (Feb 6, 2008)

i am just lurking about here, but i saw something that i would like to respond to:

i am not sure what the dc of training a wild animal would be, but i am sure it would not be an easy task...i will research the question at hand of what is needed to train a wild animal when i return from a service call.


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## industrygothica (Feb 6, 2008)

Scott DeWar said:
			
		

> i am just lurking about here, but i saw something that i would like to respond to:
> 
> i am not sure what the dc of training a wild animal would be, but i am sure it would not be an easy task...i will research the question at hand of what is needed to train a wild animal when i return from a service call.




You're always welcome to offer input, and I appreciate it.  My little corner of this imagined world is slowly starting to take shape nicely, and I think I will be able to present it to my real-life players rather vividly.  Each new idea helps it grow a little more as I develop NPCs to further flesh it out, such as the handler it'll take to bring this one to fruition.

I've done a little bit of research myself on this topic.  Here's what I've found.

The DC to _rear_ a black bear from infancy (and I think these are close enough in age) is 18.  That's a base 15 plus 3 hit dice.  Apparently a handler can attempt to raise as many as three of any one given type of animal.

The DC to teach the tricks are as listed in the book.

I guess the main question now is time.  How long would it take to rear a wild bear to a sufficient level of domestication?  I can't help but think it wouldn't be a quick process, maybe even up to a year.  I don't think it'd be an unreasonable requirement that, if the animal is being trained by a hired handler, the PC spend an hour or two a day with the animal learning to control it, as the animal is learning to be controlled.

I think that this would require a significant investment on the part of the PC, forcing him to really consider his decision before he runs out and tries to domesticate every wild animal he sees.

Thoughts?


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## OnlytheStrong (Feb 6, 2008)

I would think that something as potentially dangerous and wild as a bear would require years of training by a handler before he even allows someone else to step in with it. I would think that it would be in his best interest if he requires the person buying the animal to spend a large amount of time with it under supervision. After all, if he just sells the animal and it kills it's owner....... that's bad for business. 

Maybe have the PC spend an hour or 2 a day spending time with the animal. Giving it commands, feeding it, etc. Anything that would be able to establish trust and a sense of belonging. Maybe have the trainer slowly work himself out of the picture. 

As far as a price........... I have no clue. I would want to make it low enough that the PC's (like my ranger) _could_ afford it, but would have to sacrifice quite a bit of their money for it. I mean, if you wait until like..... 3rd level?? a ranger will just get his own companion. I like having a trainer, so you could potentially have a wizard with a black bear to guard him. Just seems cool.


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## Scott DeWar (Feb 7, 2008)

well, in real life i have seen it take a horse trainer 3 months of working with a (domestic) horse (at the minimal age of 2 years) to get saddle broke just for him...not to mention saddle broke for anyone else like the owner. Now i know that is real life and this is fantasy, so i would have to say the idea of one year would not be a bad thing, just a matter of gp s (and that is not general principles)

First thing i would like to mention is that traing a wild animal requires a dc 20. if the trainer has a cha bonus of +2 that means there needs to be a +8 ranks jsut to take a 10 on training the bear cubs...i would not think that a trainer would try to train a potentialy deadly animal such as a bear unless they could "take a 10" and succeed. that would mean with a +8 ranks, there would need to be a level 5 npc (max ranks = 3 + level). so if a trainer could train the bears there would  need to be the price of a level 5 npc.

keeping in mind that the phb (Skills : Handle animal) does say that domesticating a wild animal starts with a young animal, you would do likewise with the horse analagy with the foal being freshly weaned when it is being put into a starting training session.

next thing i wish to point out is a place to work. if you use the dmg II rules for places of business, there would need to be an investment of 1000 for a building and about 8000 for all of the political stuff, possibly as low as 4000 if in a smaller then a town sized area.

if you want to know my source on this, it would be starting on page on 180 of the dmg II.

is this making any sense, or am i just yammering?


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## Legildur (Feb 7, 2008)

From Handle Animal of the SRD (my emphasis:



> For tasks with specific time frames noted above, you must spend half this time (*at the rate of 3 hours per day per animal being handled*) working toward completion of the task before you attempt the Handle Animal check. If the check fails, your attempt to teach, rear, or train the animal fails and you need not complete the teaching, rearing, or training time. If the check succeeds, you must invest the remainder of the time to complete the teaching, rearing, or training. If the time is interrupted or the task is not followed through to completion, the attempt to teach, rear, or train the animal automatically fails.
> 
> Try Again
> Yes, except for rearing an animal.



I would say it takes six weeksb at DC 18 (3 hours per day per cub). It says that you can teach tricks at the same time.  Maybe the PHB description is more complete.


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## Arkhandus (Feb 7, 2008)

Well, other folks already answered the animal rearing questions before I got to it, so there ya go.

A 1st-level human Expert or Commoner with 4 ranks in Handle Animal, Skill Focus (Handle Animal), and Animal Affinity, as any decent animal trainer would have, will have Handle Animal at +9.  With a 12 Charisma or so, it'd be +10 (he might have a below average Wisdom anyway for being in the business of trying to train wild animals)  .  At 2nd or 3rd level he could have a +11 or +12 modifier.

So taking 10 on the checks, as he would be doing, the animal trainer should be able to successfully rear the bear cubs.  As long as things don't get too hectic/stressful to the point that he can't take 10 on checks anymore, in which case he might fail some of the rolls.


Aramil and Irathias could probably travel to town and back fairly quickly since they only need 4 hours of trance each night.  They could leave literally at first light, carry the boy and the cubs (though they might have to subdue the cubs first, unfortunately, to keep them unconscious and thus non-troublesome), and make good time.


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## industrygothica (Feb 7, 2008)

Scott DeWar said:
			
		

> well, in real life i have seen it take a horse trainer 3 months of working with a (domestic) horse (at the minimal age of 2 years) to get saddle broke just for him...not to mention saddle broke for anyone else like the owner. Now i know that is real life and this is fantasy, so i would have to say the idea of one year would not be a bad thing, just a matter of gp s (and that is not general principles)
> 
> First thing i would like to mention is that traing a wild animal requires a dc 20. if the trainer has a cha bonus of +2 that means there needs to be a +8 ranks jsut to take a 10 on training the bear cubs...i would not think that a trainer would try to train a potentialy deadly animal such as a bear unless they could "take a 10" and succeed. that would mean with a +8 ranks, there would need to be a level 5 npc (max ranks = 3 + level). so if a trainer could train the bears there would  need to be the price of a level 5 npc.
> 
> ...




The DC for _rearing_ a wild animal is 15 plus the animal's HD.  The DC for teaching specific tricks range from 15 to 20 depending on the trick.  I think the object is to first get the animal domesticated, which in this case would be DC 18.  Yes, you can teach the the animal tricks while you're domesticating it, but it's really the DC 18 check that counts the most; if that one fails, the others are pointless. Rearing is the only use of the Handle Animal skill that can't be retried, so it's obviously the one you'd want to get right the first time.

Can one legitimately even take 10 in this situation?  Rule one for taking 10 is that the character not be distracted or threatened, and I'd think that dealing with a wild animal would make you both.  I really don't think I'd allow that in my game.

I do appreciate being pointed to the DMG II; the prices for hirelings on Table 5-2 (page 155) are a great help.


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## Scott DeWar (Feb 7, 2008)

that book is till new to me, so i wasn't aware of that table, or i would have used it...glad to be of help! (despite my aimless rambling...)

as for the takeing of 10, in hind sight, i totally agree as to the reason to not be able to...even a young bear that is still wild can be threatening!


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## industrygothica (Feb 8, 2008)

An animal trainer... am I missing anything?

*Carslan Alos CR 4*
Male human expert 5
LN Medium human
*Init* +2; *Senses* Listen +7, Spot +7
*Languages* common
*AC* 14, touch 12, flat-footed 12
*hp* 20 (5 HD)
*Fort* +1, *Ref* +3, *Will* +5
*Spd* 30 ft.
*Melee* dagger +4 (1d4) or spear +4 (1d8)
*Ranged* light crossbow +5 (1d8) 
[*Space* 5 ft; *Reach* 5 ft]
*Base Atk* +3; *Grp* +3
*Combat Gear* dagger, spear, light crossbow
*Abilities* Str 13, Dex 14, Con 10, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 16
*Feats* Alertness, Animal Affinity, Skill focus (handle animal)
*Skills* Handle Animal +16 (8 ranks +3 Cha +2 Animal affinity +3 Skill focus), Knowledge (nature) +8 (8 ranks -2 Int +2 synergy), Listen +7 (4 ranks +1 Wis +2 Alertness), Profession (Animal Trainer) +9 (8 ranks +1 Wis), Ride +10 (4 ranks +2 Dex +2 Animal Affinity +2 synergy), Search +3 (4 ranks -1 Int), Spot +7 (4 ranks +1 Wis +2 Alertness), Survival +11 (8 ranks +1 Wis +2 synergy)
*Possessions* combat gear, leather armor


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## Legildur (Feb 8, 2008)

Experts are only proficient with simple weapons.


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## Arkhandus (Feb 8, 2008)

Only other flaw I can see is the skill points being a bit off.....
For one thing, he should have 48 SP, as a 5th-level human expert with 8 Int.  You've spent 66 SP.

Secondly, he's got 2 ranks too many in Survival, he should have 8 ranks not 10 (+9 total instead of +11).

Also, Search is listed but without any bonus given.

So....cut down Survival by 2 ranks as needed, and that leaves 16 skill points left to remove.  Personally, I'm not sure why he has Move Silently, other than to help in capturing animals maybe, but it won't matter much when he can't Hide decently.  Ditch the 8 ranks in Move Silently, ditch 3 ranks in Ride, ditch 2 ranks in Listen, ditch 2 ranks in Spot, and ditch 1 more rank in Survival (so 7 ranks total in Survival, instead of 8 or 10).  That'll fix it.  Search probably doesn't need any ranks......probably.


As for the gear.....maybe leather armor (he doesn't want to get all scratched up easily by every animal he trains), a crossbow or some javelins, a dagger, and a spear or club.


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## industrygothica (Feb 8, 2008)

Arkhandus said:
			
		

> Only other flaw I can see is the skill points being a bit off.....
> For one thing, he should have 48 SP, as a 5th-level human expert with 8 Int.  You've spent 66 SP.
> 
> Secondly, he's got 2 ranks too many in Survival, he should have 8 ranks not 10 (+9 total instead of +11).
> ...




Ha! I'd say the skills are certainly more than a _bit_ off.  I know what I was thinking there, but I won't bother explaining it as I was certainly not doing a very good job of it (thinking, that is).

The move silently was indeed for hunting and/or capturing the animals, but is really not necessary.  I'll get them fixed up, along with the weapon proficiency that Legildur pointed out.

Thanks!

*EDIT*  Take a look at him again, if you don't mind.  Hopefully he's fixed now.


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## industrygothica (Feb 12, 2008)

Arkhandus said:
			
		

> Huzzah! InvisibleCastle likes me today!
> An 18 on the attack roll, for a total of 20, and 12 damage from the shortbow sneak attack!
> Sneak attack with shortbow against the nearest flat-footed orc (1d20+2=20, 2d6=12)




Unfortunately, you'll remember that I loathe invisible castle.

We'll keep the results from this roll this time, but I prefer to do it myself in the future, if it's all the same to you.


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## Arkhandus (Feb 12, 2008)

Ah, I forgot.  I'm just used to using InvisibleCastle at this point for PbP rolls, so I've gotta consciously focus on avoiding that for the few games not using it. :\ 

Sorry.


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## industrygothica (Feb 15, 2008)

So this is probably more of a case of an unprepared DM rather than an untrustworthy victim, but we can play it out however.  This is actually the one encounter that I was worried about the most, and for good reason, it seems.

First, I hadn't decided whether or not the father was dead until the time came, and the bit with Thogrim just kind of came up.  I'm guessing that if this turns into a long campaign--either here or with the tabletop group--that there may be another half-orc running around Bjorah's Cliff in the near future.  In a strange bit of irony, that story could almost mirror the history of my first pbp character, the ranger Korik.  But that's neither here nor there.  I'm just trying to build a memorable place with well developed people--somewhere that the PCs will care about.

But as for this encounter, it needs work.  Ideas?


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## OnlytheStrong (Feb 15, 2008)

You could play off the distrust of the half orc because well........... they were just abused by orcs lol. If our half orc friend looks more like an orc then whatever the other half is, the distrust would be easy to explain. 

I think the distrust so far is pretty much the way encounters would go. It would be hard to meet new people on the road, and trust them completely. Heck, I don't know. It's just my opinion, which probably doesn't (and shouldn't) amount to much


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## Arkhandus (Feb 15, 2008)

Hm.  Irathias is worried that the girl may've been violated, and that could have something to do with how she'd react towards any orc-bloods. :\ 

Aside from how she deals with the oddity of a half-orc adventurer being one of her rescuers....  Yeah, I think these two caraveners are likely to be fairly untrusting, after what they've been through and what with this being something of a wild frontier or whatever.  A group of non-humans has just saved them from another group of non-humans by killing the latter, and a strange group at that.

Another worry of Irathias' is that the girl's father might be some perverted old man, given how he reacted.  All kinds of nasty ways this encounter could turn out!  

A more reasonable, shadier but less distasteful angle, could be that they were lookin' to smuggle some illegal goods and didn't want the rest of the caravan to be privy to their plotting and, perhaps, a covert meeting with the supplier or buyer of their drugs/poisons/stolen valuables/whatever.

Or they may actually be spies of some sort, or trafficking in shady secrets and similar information, readying some sort of secret drop-off or looking to pick up their latest payment/mark/goal.

Hrm.

But yeah, the next time, there needs to be more orcs.  Hopefully just not all armed with big weapons; a few orcs with greataxes can quickly kill a party of 1st-level PCs once the orcs get to act, even if most of their fellows died in a surprise round.  Clubs, battleaxes, and morningstars are less likely to TPK the neophyte adventurers.  And less valuable when sold as loot, 'specially all notched and grimy and pitted.


----------



## WarShrike (Feb 15, 2008)

Thogrim doesn't trust them for several reasons:

1. Their stories differ too much. The old man claims there was only 1 wagon in the caravan, the girl says there were at least 2.

2. After being the victims of an Orc attack, and revealing that there were actually more than those 4 Orcs around, they seem perfectly content to stay in the Orc camp for the night. If I was them, i'd want to get to safety asap.

3. The man seems unconcerned for the safety of the other wagon(s) and occupants.

4. The girl said: "The other cart was maybe half a day ahead when we were ambushed. There were more on that one, perhaps that's why they picked us instead." When said that way, to me at least, it seems to show they had fore-knowledge that the caravan was going to be attacked, and they backed off to avoid it.


----------



## industrygothica (Feb 20, 2008)

WarShrike said:
			
		

> Thogrim doesn't trust them for several reasons:
> 
> 1. Their stories differ too much. The old man claims there was only 1 wagon in the caravan, the girl says there were at least 2.




Technically they're both right.  There were two wagons in the caravan, but the other was so far ahead when they were ambushed that there was only one of them around at the time.



			
				WarShrike said:
			
		

> 2. After being the victims of an Orc attack, and revealing that there were actually more than those 4 Orcs around, they seem perfectly content to stay in the Orc camp for the night. If I was them, i'd want to get to safety asap.




Being in the wilderness at night is dangerous enough.  While they may not _want_ to stay there, logic (at least _my logic_) says that's it's safer to stay there through the night, rather than try to travel through the forest injured with no defenses.

As for this encounter, I"ll tell you this much:

Hatcher and his daughter are honest enough people. So far, what they've told you is the truth.

For story purposes, it is likely that the girl _was_ violated, and that Thogrim won't be the only half-orc in Bjorah's Cliff for long.  But that is out of the scope of this adventure, at least for now.

I know there are some kinks to work out of this one, so I'm all ears if you have any ideas.  That's what we're here for, after all. 

On another note, sorry I've been quiet for a few days.  Been hella sick, and having to fight my better half for the computer.  I lost.


----------



## Scott DeWar (Feb 20, 2008)

Arkhandus said:
			
		

> ....
> Hrm.
> 
> But yeah, the next time, there needs to be more orcs.  Hopefully just not all armed with big weapons; a few orcs with greataxes can quickly kill a party of 1st-level PCs once the orcs get to act, even if most of their fellows died in a surprise round.  Clubs, battleaxes, and morningstars are less likely to TPK the neophyte adventurers.  And less valuable when sold as loot, 'specially all notched and grimy and pitted.




*tosses two copper coins on the table*

re: weapons and orcs
 as an idea for future possible uses, many orcs with non letheal weaposn make for great slave harvesting...saps, clubs, whips, lassos...just an idea...i hope my dm doesn't read this.


----------



## industrygothica (Feb 27, 2008)

Arkhandus said:
			
		

> [sblock=ooc]I think the DC is 15 to Climb across a rope like this...  Irathias has a +5 on Climb, so he could do it taking 10.[/sblock]




I'm not convinced that Climb would be the relevant skill in this situation.  The rope is not at an incline, so there's really nothing to climb, but more just hanging on and scooting yourself across.  I think it'd be more of a combination of strength Strength check than anything.  Success means you hang on and move for x number of feet, failure means no progress, failure by 5 or more means you fall.

What do you think?

Also, maybe I wasn't clean enough in the scene description, but the bridge attaches to the posts in the ground, so perhaps if you could fish the dangling end of the bridge back up, you could reattach it for the others to cross as well.

When the scene is over, I'll tell you another way as well, which is the way I was expecting you to go, honestly.


----------



## Arkhandus (Feb 28, 2008)

Well, I figure, scaling a rope horizontally (as opposed to vertically, which probably means competing more with gravity) would be easier than climbing a rope straight up.  You're using basically the same skills as climbing a rope vertically, just a little different.

Also, note that the Climb skill mentions crossing a ceiling or overhang with handholds but no footholds, at DC 25; a rope provides something to hold onto with both arms and legs though, and is easier to crawl along, so I'd assume it to use the same DC 15 as climbing an unknotted rope vertically.

Strength checks would doom us all (if we tried to cross, that is).  Can't take 10 on ability checks AFAIK, only skill checks, and even a good Strength score wouldn't matter; you'd be bound to roll kinda low or very low after a few rolls, if not right away.  Someone'd fall to their death, possibly multiple someones.

Even an 18 Strength fellow could roll low on a Strength check and fall to his death, regardless of how short a distance he crossed.  Skill checks at least allow experience to count for something, and increase the chance of success along with allowing "take 10" when there's no battle or other serious interference around them.


And yeah, I figured out what you meant in the description after a bit, but I'm not sure we'd be strong enough to haul the loose end of the bridge back over to the other side, using Irathias' single line of silk rope, then reattach it.  And I'm just not quite sure how much the silk rope can handle, weight-wise; it's twice as tough as hemp rope, but I couldn't find any info on how much weight it'll support.


Also, of course, the normal solution wouldn't be Irathias' crazy plan, but that's because most folks don't carry a length of good rope and a grappling hook wherever they go.


----------



## Scott DeWar (Feb 28, 2008)

*two peices of copper land squarely on top of the previous two*

a bit of experience here....

as far as _*reality*_ goes, when i was in the air force, i was required to cross a water obsticale in a rope of a horizontal layout...i very easily crossed it. i have tried all my life to shinny up trees and rops but to no avail. I would (humbly) have to recommend the dc to be somewhat lower the 15 given my perosnal knowledge...but that is the senile ramblings of an old fart like me....


----------



## Legildur (Feb 28, 2008)

'Regaining' on a rope is relatively easy, once you have been shown how...

I was also wondering if the tree canopy met overhead? That would provide an additional avenue.

Bringing remains of the bridge across should be trivial.  Lower someone into the chasm on a rope, attach the rope to the bridge, raise the bridge and tie off, bring up the person in the chasm, and walk across.

The advantage of having the bridge up is that it gives us an escape route if needed.


----------



## industrygothica (Feb 28, 2008)

You all make good points.  I guess in reality it wouldn't really take much to to wrap your arms and legs around the rope and move yourself across.  The main thing I was concerned about with the strength check, however, is being able to hang on with the addition of your body weight while you're trying to move across.  I suppose it'd make sense to use the characters weight to modify the ACP, if applicable, and then use a DC 10 climb check?


----------



## OnlytheStrong (Feb 29, 2008)

I'd prefer Aramil do the hand over hand, legs wrapped around the rope horizontal climb lol. I woulda replied in the IC thread, but......... thought the ooc thread would make less clutter.


----------



## industrygothica (Feb 29, 2008)

OnlytheStrong said:
			
		

> I'd prefer Aramil do the hand over hand, legs wrapped around the rope horizontal climb lol. I woulda replied in the IC thread, but......... thought the ooc thread would make less clutter.




Indeed.  I'm going to let him make it across without a climb check, but it'll be at one-quarter speed, just like the skill.  I think that's reasonable.


----------



## OnlytheStrong (Mar 1, 2008)

Dang that knot!!!!


----------



## industrygothica (Mar 1, 2008)

OnlytheStrong said:
			
		

> Dang that knot!!!!




Indeed.


----------



## Legildur (Mar 6, 2008)

Is the bridge cut on our (forest) side or the far (fort) side?


----------



## industrygothica (Mar 6, 2008)

Legildur said:
			
		

> Is the bridge cut on our (forest) side or the far (fort) side?




The bridge isn't cut at all.  The ropes loop around the thick posts in the ground, it and looks as if the ropes on the forest side have simple been detached from them.


----------



## Legildur (Mar 6, 2008)

Well then, what are we waiting for! No way is Dowkan going to shimmy across some piece of rope tied by an elf when he could use a perfectly sound bridge!


----------



## Arkhandus (Mar 6, 2008)

I'm confused.....it didn't sound like that at all from the initial description.  So is the bridge dangling from one side of the chasm, or not?  And if so, from what side?  As far as I could tell from the initial description, the bridge was dangling from the far end and effectively useless.


----------



## industrygothica (Mar 7, 2008)

Arkhandus said:
			
		

> I'm confused.....it didn't sound like that at all from the initial description.  So is the bridge dangling from one side of the chasm, or not?  And if so, from what side?  As far as I could tell from the initial description, the bridge was dangling from the far end and effectively useless.





The ropes have been detached from the posts on the forest side, causing the bridge to fall and dangle from the tower side.

Apparently this entire encounter needs a bit of work.  But hey, that's what we're here for, right?


----------



## Legildur (Mar 7, 2008)

industrygothica said:
			
		

> Apparently this entire encounter needs a bit of work.  But hey, that's what we're here for, right?



I just put it down to us not reading the description properly.


----------



## industrygothica (Mar 7, 2008)

Legildur said:
			
		

> I just put it down to us not reading the description properly.




As far as I'm concerned, if you didn't get it the first time, it needs to be redone.  It should have been more clear than that.


----------



## Walking Dad (Mar 7, 2008)

Hi, I noticed the absence off an arcane spellcaster in your test-group. I could play a halfling sorceror if you like.

Your Walking Dad

[SBLOCK=Tulbar]

Name: Tulbar
Race: Halfling
Class: Sorceror
Diety: Yondalla
Familiar: Raven (Crax)
Align: N-G
HPs: 6
XPs: 0

Str: 10 (4 pts, -2 Racial)
Dex: 16 (6 pts, +2 Racial)
Con: 14 (6 pts)
Int: 12 (4 pts)
Wis: 10 (2 pts)
Cha: 14 (6 pts)


BAB: +0
AC: 14, Touch: 14, Flat Footed: 11
Fort: +3
Refl: +4
Will: +3 (+5 vs fear)
Move: 20'
Init: +3
Listen/Spot: +2 / +0 (+4 / +2 with familiar bonus)
Loads: Light: 0-25 / Medium 26 - 50 / Heavy 50 - 75
[SBLOCK=Halfling Traits]
- Small: As a Small creature, a halfling gains a +1 size bonus to Armor Class,
a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus on Hide checks,
but she uses smaller weapons than humans use, and her lifting and carrying limits
are three-quarters of those of a Medium character.
- +2 racial bonus on Climb, Jump, Listen, and Move Silently checks.
- +1 racial bonus on all saving throws.
- +2 morale bonus on saving throws against fear:
This bonus stacks with the halfling’s +1 bonus on saving throws in general.
- +1 racial bonus on attack rolls with thrown weapons and slings.
[/SBLOCK]

Weapons:
Dagger (x2) -- +1 To Hit, 1d3 Damage (19-20 x2)
Sling -- +5 To Hit, 1d3 Damage ( x2)

Skills:
Bluff: +6 (4 Ranks, +2 Cha Mod)
Concentration: +6 (4 Ranks, +2 Con Mod)
Hide: +7 (0 Ranks, +3 Dex Mod, +4 size)
Knowledge (Arcane): +5 (4 Ranks, +1 Int Mod)
Move Silently: +5 (0 Ranks, +3 Dex Mod, +2 racial)

Languages:
Common, Halfling, Orc

Feats:
Class Granted
Weapon Proficiency -- simple
Chosen
Point Blank Shot

Equipment: 120gp
Dagger 2x) 15gp 2lbs
Sling 0gp lbs
Sling Bullets (x20) 2sp 1 lbs

Backpack 2gp 0.5lbs
Bedroll 1sp 1.25lbs
Scroll Case 1gp 0.5lbs
Flint and Steel 1gp
Pouch, Belt 1gp 0.5lbs (medium sized)
Rations x10 5gp 2.5lbs
Soap 1gp 2lbs
Spell Components Pouch 5 gp 2lbs
Traveller's Outfit  1gp1.25 lbs
Waterskin 1gp 1lbs
Whetstone 2cp 1lbs
Sunrod (x2) 4gp 2lbs
Torch 2cp 2lbs.

Scrolls 75 gp
Burning Hands
Grease
Ray of Enfeeblement


Total Cost: 112gp, 3sp, 4cp
Left Over: 7gp, 6sp, 6cp

Total Weight: 20.5lbs -> light load

Age: 24
Height: 2'11"
Weight: 30lb
Eyes: green
Hair: brown
Skin: light tan
[/SBLOCK]

[SBLOCK=Spells]
5/Day Level 0: Acid Splash, Detect Magic, Light, Read Magic
4/Day Level 1: Mage Armor, Sleep.
[/SBLOCK]

[SBLOCK=Crax (Familiar)]
Raven
Size/Type: Tiny Magical Beast
Hit Dice:  1 (3 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 10 ft. (2 squares), fly 40 ft. (average)
Armor Class: 15 (+2 size, +2 Dex + 1 natural armor), touch 14, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/-13
Attack: Claws +4 melee (1d2-5)
Full Attack: Claws +4 melee (1d2-5)
Space/Reach: 2½ ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, familiar
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +4, Will +4
Abilities: Str 1, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 6, Wis 14, Cha 6
Skills: Listen +5, Spot +7
Feats: Alertness, Weapon FinesseB
[/SBLOCK]


----------



## Scott DeWar (Mar 8, 2008)

Hi, it is me again...the Kabitzer...as for the bridge, i seem to have read that it is hanging from the posts on the far side of the gully, hanging loops intact,posts on party side still strong and intact... as if someone was escaping and did not want to be followed...but that is just me...am i right?


----------



## industrygothica (Mar 8, 2008)

Scott DeWar said:
			
		

> Hi, it is me again...the Kabitzer...as for the bridge, i seem to have read that it is hanging from the posts on the far side of the gully, hanging loops intact,posts on party side still strong and intact... as if someone was escaping and did not want to be followed...but that is just me...am i right?




Indeed, you have it right.


----------



## industrygothica (Mar 8, 2008)

Warshrike, are you still with us?  Haven't heard from you for a week.


----------



## WarShrike (Mar 8, 2008)

Still here. Thogrim's got nothing to add as yet. He was just wondering how useful his CLW would be on an elven pancake scooped up off the bottom of that ravine.


----------



## industrygothica (Mar 8, 2008)

WarShrike said:
			
		

> Still here. Thogrim's got nothing to add as yet. He was just wondering how useful his CLW would be on an elven pancake scooped up off the bottom of that ravine.




Guess that depends on who's going to climb down to do the scooping.


----------



## industrygothica (Mar 8, 2008)

Walking Dad said:
			
		

> Hi, I noticed the absence off an arcane spellcaster in your test-group. I could play a halfling sorceror if you like.
> 
> Your Walking Dad
> 
> ...




Sorry I haven't responded to you sooner.  That's actually because I've been considering your offer, and how it will affect the game.  Ultimately, I don't think it's a great idea at the time.  Mainly because the game is designed to handle four players, all of which will probably be brand new.  I don't see a lot of arcane casting going on, to be honest.

I'd definitely appreciate any insight you've got, and should someone drop out later down the road, I'd most certainly allow you in as an alternate, assuming you're still around.

As I said, you're more than welcome, even encouraged, to participate in the OOC portion, much like Scott DeWar is doing.  That helps tremendously, but I just don't have room for another actual player right now.


----------



## Scott DeWar (Mar 8, 2008)

if this is in reguaards to the bridge:



			
				industrygothica said:
			
		

> As far as I'm concerned, if you didn't get it the first time, it needs to be redone.  It should have been more clear than that.





thin i just wanted it to be understood i understood it...but then again, i have been called a bit of ansane maniac....  

as for elvin pancakes, did you know that in the sunless citidell they had elvin pudding? (tastes like chicken)


----------



## industrygothica (Mar 8, 2008)

Scott DeWar said:
			
		

> if this is in reguaards to the bridge:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




And I appreciate a healthy level of insanity.  Gives the world a little flavor.



			
				Scott DeWar said:
			
		

> as for elvin pancakes, did you know that in the sunless citidell they had elvin pudding? (tastes like chicken)




This is more than a little disturbing.


----------



## Walking Dad (Mar 8, 2008)

industrygothica said:
			
		

> Sorry I haven't responded to you sooner.  That's actually because I've been considering your offer, and how it will affect the game.  Ultimately, I don't think it's a great idea at the time.  Mainly because the game is designed to handle four players, all of which will probably be brand new.  I don't see a lot of arcane casting going on, to be honest.
> 
> I'd definitely appreciate any insight you've got, and should someone drop out later down the road, I'd most certainly allow you in as an alternate, assuming you're still around.
> 
> As I said, you're more than welcome, even encouraged, to participate in the OOC portion, much like Scott DeWar is doing.  That helps tremendously, but I just don't have room for another actual player right now.



I hope I can offer you some new insights.


----------



## industrygothica (Mar 8, 2008)

Walking Dad said:
			
		

> I hope I can offer you some new insights.




I'm looking forward to it.


----------



## Walking Dad (Mar 8, 2008)

Arkhandus said:
			
		

> But yeah, the next time, there needs to be more orcs.  Hopefully just not all armed with big weapons; a few orcs with greataxes can quickly kill a party of 1st-level PCs once the orcs get to act, even if most of their fellows died in a surprise round.  Clubs, battleaxes, and morningstars are less likely to TPK the neophyte adventurers.  And less valuable when sold as loot, 'specially all notched and grimy and pitted.




(Great)-Clubs are good. Try to avoid the "classc" axes for first level newbies. The x3 crit can kill with just one good roll.

Btw, any idea what classes the "real" group will play?


----------



## industrygothica (Mar 8, 2008)

Walking Dad said:
			
		

> (Great)-Clubs are good. Try to avoid the "classc" axes for first level newbies. The x3 crit can kill with just one good roll.
> 
> Btw, any idea what classes the "real" group will play?




That's a good idea.  I think I'll also include a hand axe in their loot so that the PCs can use it later.

My original idea for the bridge encounter was that they'd probably cut down one or two of those tall pine trees and use it for a makeshift bridge, but things never go how you plan, eh? 

I have no idea what they'll play.  I know that one of them is looking at a rogue, but I couldn't guess about anyone else.


----------



## OnlytheStrong (Mar 9, 2008)

lol wow. I never woulda thought of cutting a tree down............. I was thinking of all these complex ways to get the freaking bridge up. I wonder who the noob is really? *points to self*


----------



## Arkhandus (Mar 9, 2008)

I thought we were too far from the trees, that they weren't long enough, and most importantly, that the 3 of us (or 4, if Aramil were still on this side of the chasm) wouldn't be strong enough to haul a 30-foot-long piece of lumber (and thick enough to support the weight of our resident dwarf and half-orc) over from one side of the chasm to the far side some 25 feet away (holding one end of a long, heavy lever over a wide gap, with the fulcrum of our PCs' bodies near the very tip, would be hard...).

Two lightly-muscled elves and two stronger fellows might have trouble with that, and we have little in the way of tools (I got the impression that the dead orcs' weapons were of poor quality and not work taking, even if they did have axes).  But then, I'm no lumberjack, so I'm not really sure how heavy a suitable log would be.


----------



## Walking Dad (Mar 9, 2008)

@ use rope on grappling hook: If my characters do this, I would at least take 10.

small titbit: silk rope counts as MW and gives a +2 bous. The roll would still have failed.

The rope plan isn't that bad.


----------



## Walking Dad (Mar 9, 2008)

Arkhandus said:
			
		

> ... (holding one end of a long, heavy lever over a wide gap, with the fulcrum of our PCs' bodies near the very tip, would be hard...)...




You would have to bring the lever upright and than let it "fall down" over the chasm.


----------



## industrygothica (Mar 9, 2008)

My wife is from New Orleans, so I get the pleasure of visiting that great city quite a bit.  Anyone who's been there or to Mississippi has seen the towering pine trees that line the roads. Even in the dead of the city it makes one feel as if he's driving through the middle of nowhere.

Those are the type of trees that I was imagining in this scenario.  To me, at least, it seems that if you cut it at the right spot--and there's no reason that a ranger wouldn't know this--that you could actually get the tree to fall right over the chasm and have very little positioning to do afterwards.

Maybe that's not as possible as I was seeing it.  It looked good in my head though.


----------



## WarShrike (Mar 9, 2008)

It may be a personal preferance, but i've always pictured Rangers as tree savers rather than tree killers. Especially Elves.


----------



## industrygothica (Mar 9, 2008)

WarShrike said:
			
		

> It may be a personal preferance, but i've always pictured Rangers as tree savers rather than tree killers. Especially Elves.




To an extent I agree, but I'd think that even an elven ranger would know when it's time to use the resources that nature gives him.  At the very least, I can't see him chaining himself to it when the rest of the party decides to use it.  Might be using an elf for a bridge then.


----------



## Scott DeWar (Mar 9, 2008)

Walking Dad said:
			
		

> You would have to bring the lever upright and than let it "fall down" over the chasm.





that is how i pictured it hapening as well...as for the disturbing vision of elf pudding, I.G. , i was playing an elf in the sunless citidell module...oh boy...

i have taken amtrack from st. louis to new orleans back in '85, then again in '86...i know what you mean along the mississippi river on the mississippi state side, I. G. and i can't see any reason why the sceanario you have couldn't work. those being pole pines and reaching a total height of 50 feet  in 50 years, in an untouche forest, theywould be even taller! and darn thick at the base.


----------



## industrygothica (Mar 20, 2008)

I wasn't trying to suggest that you use a tree to get to the window.  I was only attempting to give a description of the environment should you decide to go somewhere and think.


----------



## Walking Dad (Mar 31, 2008)

Hi, I want only to say, that I found another PbP game to play Tulbar. But I will continue to read your thread.

Happy gaming!


----------



## industrygothica (Mar 31, 2008)

Walking Dad said:
			
		

> Hi, I want only to say, that I found another PbP game to play Tulbar. But I will continue to read your thread.
> 
> Happy gaming!




Great.  I'll continue to look forward to your insight.


----------



## industrygothica (Apr 2, 2008)

All I'm waiting on is for someone to tell me who's climbing the rope.


----------



## industrygothica (Apr 19, 2008)

I want to make totally sure I'm understanding this correctly:

You've started a fire under the murder hole to smoke out anyone who might be above threatening to drop hot tar or whatever down on top of you.  You've let the fir run its course, and have doused the embers with water (from your waterskins, I'm asssuming).  Now that the fire's out, you're going to bash through the portcullis with a thick log you've found from the surrounding area.

Does that about sum it up?


----------



## Arkhandus (Apr 20, 2008)

Yes.  It's about all we can do.  Not sure how else we're going to get past the portcullis.  The grappling hook is stuck up on a ledge.  Trying to climb up without it will be tough and potentially deadly for us 1st-level PCs, and with orcs potentially ready to drop stuff on us from the windows.  And we're wearing boots, so I figure we shouldn't burn our feet by running over the cooling cinders and junk, since we're not going to be standing on them for long.


----------



## Legildur (Apr 20, 2008)

Seems a solid plan to me!


----------



## industrygothica (Apr 20, 2008)

Legildur said:
			
		

> Seems a solid plan to me!




Really?  I must be seeing it a bit differently than you all then, which is why I wanted the clarification.  It is a moot point now because you're already in, but I'd like to talk about it anyway.

The way I see it, the fire burns and makes a lot of smoke.  Those in areas that are penetrated by the smoke will be forced to take action.  That action will obviously _not_ be coming through the front for a head-on attack, less they be scorched in the process.  So what do they do?

They wait.  And prepare.

So now after a couple of hours the fire's going out, and the embers are doused, sending one last burst of smoke up through the murder hole--but nothing a stout orc couldn't handle if he chose to.  

The fire's been fading for a while, seems like the smoke would be too.  Me personally, I haven't seen any reason that the orcs wouldn't have come back to their previously smoked-out location by the time the PCs are ready to make entrance, thus making the last few hours pretty much a waste.

As I said, it's a moot point anyway because I've given you the benefir of the doubt, but I'd like to hear your reasonings as to why my line of thinking is incorrect... if it is.

Thanks.


-IG


----------



## Legildur (Apr 20, 2008)

I was just going along with the plan  

In hindsight, I'd probably just advocate using the battering ram earlier.  I still think it would have been risky to rush the gate and expose yourself to the murder holes without a ram to ensure your passage in.


----------



## Arkhandus (Apr 20, 2008)

industrygothica said:
			
		

> They wait.  And prepare.
> 
> The fire's been fading for a while, seems like the smoke would be too.  Me personally, I haven't seen any reason that the orcs wouldn't have come back to their previously smoked-out location by the time the PCs are ready to make entrance, thus making the last few hours pretty much a waste.



Well, they'd be prepared anyway.  They have a tower of their own for now, and they would have heard us regardless of how we went about entering, unless we were such skilled climbers (not so likely at 1st-level) that we could've just quietly climbed the walls without any grappling hook or other tools.

Unfortunately, I think half the party makes too much noise just moving around, so that wouldn't really be an option.  Irathias and Aramil alone would easily be overwhelmed by just 2-3 average orcs if we tried to sneak in by ourselves and then, somehow, opened the iron portcullis quietly, as if _that_ would even be possible (not to mention that we're lean elves, not burly orcs; it'd take a while for us to lift the gate, leaving us vulnerable).

If we had several buckets of water, we could've doused the fire suddenly and quickly.  Regardless, the smoke must've made it hard for orcs to see and breathe in the area around the murder holes, at least giving us a minor advantage, since we'd be charging in without breathing the smoke first.  Unfortunately, I don't recall us hearing about any river real close that we could reach without climbing, and anyhow we'd need quite a while to carve out big bowls/buckets from a log, using our daggers or whatnot.

This was, relatively speaking, the fastest thing I could think of that _might_ work.  Just charging the portcullis would've been _begging_ to get boiling water, boiling tar, acid, or orc feces dumped on us.  What can you expect of a few 1st-level PCs far from town?


----------



## industrygothica (Apr 20, 2008)

Arkhandus said:
			
		

> Well, they'd be prepared anyway.  They have a tower of their own for now, and they would have heard us regardless of how we went about entering, unless we were such skilled climbers (not so likely at 1st-level) that we could've just quietly climbed the walls without any grappling hook or other tools.
> 
> Unfortunately, I think half the party makes too much noise just moving around, so that wouldn't really be an option.  Irathias and Aramil alone would easily be overwhelmed by just 2-3 average orcs if we tried to sneak in by ourselves and then, somehow, opened the iron portcullis quietly, as if _that_ would even be possible (not to mention that we're lean elves, not burly orcs; it'd take a while for us to lift the gate, leaving us vulnerable).
> 
> ...




Ha!  I'm definitely putting orc feces in the final version.


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## Scott DeWar (Apr 20, 2008)

i know that i am just a voice of opinion here, but something does not sit quite well with me in this scenario.

I am not sure that first level characters should be able to be expected to break into a tower with a closed iron portcullous and murdur holes...it seems a bit out of reach for their skills if you excuse the minor pun.

this is just my humble opinion of course.


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## industrygothica (Apr 21, 2008)

Scott DeWar said:
			
		

> i know that i am just a voice of opinion here, but something does not sit quite well with me in this scenario.
> 
> I am not sure that first level characters should be able to be expected to break into a tower with a closed iron portcullous and murdur holes...it seems a bit out of reach for their skills if you excuse the minor pun.
> 
> this is just my humble opinion of course.




Maybe you're right, but think it really depends on how its played.  The lift DC for the portcullis is 25 - with four PCs lifting, I don't think that's necessarily out of reach.  It's actually easier to lift it than to break it down.

And for the murder holes, it all depends on what comes through them.  If I were dropping hot tar on first level PCs, then yeah, I could see your point.  But I think in this scenario the worst they may get is hto water or just something nasty.


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## Scott DeWar (Apr 22, 2008)

25 to lift? that is not as bad as i thought. and yea, the hot tar eould be a bit much, but skalding water might be survivable.


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## Walking Dad (Apr 23, 2008)

industrygothica said:
			
		

> Maybe you're right, but think it really depends on how its played.  The lift DC for the portcullis is 25 - with four PCs lifting, I don't think that's necessarily out of reach.  It's actually easier to lift it than to break it down.
> 
> And for the murder holes, it all depends on what comes through them.  If I were dropping hot tar on first level PCs, then yeah, I could see your point.  But I think in this scenario the worst they may get is hto water or just something nasty.



Here is the other voice 
If you expect four lifting PCs, make sure to emphase that there is enough room that all can help.
For the murderholes: Even at first level, they could suspect to be soaked with oil and than set aflame.


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## industrygothica (Apr 24, 2008)

Walking Dad said:
			
		

> Here is the other voice
> If you expect four lifting PCs, make sure to emphase that there is enough room that all can help.
> For the murderholes: Even at first level, they could suspect to be soaked with oil and than set aflame.




See... I didn't even think of that one.


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## Scott DeWar (Apr 24, 2008)

Since i live by the rule of "don't give a dm ideas" i will not suggest the idea of dropping fecal matter on the party, or perhaps honey and then rats or bees (summon swarm 1/2 spell) or  ... ,wait, didn't i just say i _wans't_ going to give the dm ideas?


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## WarShrike (May 16, 2008)

BUMP!

We done testing already?


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## industrygothica (Jun 3, 2008)

I've been avoiding this post for a while, obviously, but I just can't do it anymore.

There are several reasons that I'm killing this game, the more important being that my face-to-face group-to-be fell apart, so there's really nothing to playtest this for anymore.  Not that we were really doing any playtesting anyway.

I do appreciate all of your input, and I hate to bail out in the middle of it, but I just don't see an alternative.  I hope you understand.


-IG


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## Legildur (Jun 3, 2008)

A shame for us, but a real shame your group didn't get it together. But perfectly understood.


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