# Angel Finale



## BrooklynKnight (May 20, 2004)

I'm telling you, that guy is Smith!


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## BrooklynKnight (May 20, 2004)

"Personally....I wanna fight the dragon..."

ROCK ON!


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## Jeremy (May 20, 2004)

There were a number of really good lines in there.  And a number of really good touches that made me really like that episode.

But I don't want it to end.


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## Nightfall (May 20, 2004)

Indeed. Sucks Wes had to die, but my god that end kicked MAJOR ass. Shades of LotR and so damn smooth.


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## Samnell (May 20, 2004)

That was beautiful.


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## Nightfall (May 20, 2004)

Jeremy said:
			
		

> There were a number of really good lines in there. And a number of really good touches that made me really like that episode.
> 
> But I don't want it to end.



Nobody did. WB just sucks.


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## Hand of Evil (May 20, 2004)

freaking fantastic!  

Lorn - never saw it coming!  

Wes!


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## Ao the Overkitty (May 20, 2004)

That kicked !!!

Gotta love it.  As far as series finale goes, that was pretty good.

My thoughts just aren't collecting.  Just, wow.  I still love Illyria.  And Harmony was totally in character.

Harmony: "Can I get a recommendation?"

Angel: "It's on the desk."

Just beautiful how Spike spent his last day.  Always the poet.

I can see how some people could consider that a cliffhanger.  It is no more of a cliffhanger than the Buffy finale, in my opinion.

But yeah. that was great......

And now I am sad, because another of my shows is gone and I am down to two (L&O & SVU).


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## Piratecat (May 20, 2004)

Kudos on the ending. It was nice that not everything was spelled out.


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## Taelorn76 (May 20, 2004)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> Nobody did. WB just sucks.




To expand on that. What they said at the end

"Thanks your friends at the WB"

Friends My @$$!, if they were friends they would not have cancelled the show. 

I thought this was a great episode I am sad to see it go. But at least it went out with an apocoliptic bang.  My only regret is that I did not get into the show before this season. Thank God for DVDs.

Hey maybe if the DVDs sell well they will bring it back like they are doing with "the Family Guy".

One can hope


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## Richards (May 20, 2004)

And Illyria:  "Do you want me to lie to you now?"

It sucks that the show got cancelled, but they certainly managed to go out with a bang.  And it would be awfully hard to top that ending by doing another season.  (Where would they go from here?)  

...Almost makes it worth it.  (Of course, it helps that I have four seasons of _Angel_ that I've never seen, so unlike most of you I still have something to look forward to in the Buffyverse...)

Johnathan


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## Jamdin (May 20, 2004)

My favorite character on _Angel_ died so I am not happy at the way that part of the show ended. The rest of the show was great.


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## BrooklynKnight (May 20, 2004)

I miss Doyle, too bad the actor died, he woulda made a great come back.

*Goes to watch mpeg of the original angel opening credits*


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## Taelorn76 (May 20, 2004)

BrooklynKnight said:
			
		

> I miss Doyle, too bad the actor died, he woulda made a great come back.
> 
> *Goes to watch mpeg of the original angel opening credits*




Was he on Roseanne? one of the doughters husbands I think? How did he die?


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## RangerWickett (May 20, 2004)

Oh God, I love it.

The saddest thing my friend and I can say is that, from now on, whenever any TV show ends, we're going to have to compare it to this ending.  And nothing's going to stack up.

But, just, . . . all the wonderful one liners. . . .  I am _stunned_ at how great this episode was.  Again, though, I have to keep coming back to:

"Me, personally?  I kinda wanna slay the dragon."

Phenomenal.

The best twist was Lorne.  No, wait, it was great when Spike fought with the baby in his arms.  Or ooh!  When the demon guy died of poison out of his slaveboy.  Eeeeee!

A week ago, I was a little bummed out the show was ending, and that David Boreanaz didn't want to ever reprise the role.  But now, I have no regrets.  For the time Joss had to end the show, he did a job that was better than could possibly happen.  I mean, an ending as good as this one couldn't possibly have happened.  It's unbelievably good.

*sigh*

I am a writer, a storyteller, and an erstwhile game master.  I used to think I was at least a little good at all of those.

The bar is now much, much higher.


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## Richards (May 20, 2004)

Actually, while I really like the character of Wesley as well, I was okay with him dying.  It really was what he wanted most of all, actually: to be reunited with the real Fred (as opposed to the "Smurf Fred").  So there was a nice sense of, I don't know, "rightness" about his death.

Johnathan


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## BrooklynKnight (May 20, 2004)

Gah! its from later in season 1 after he was dead!


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## John Crichton (May 20, 2004)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> Nobody did. WB just sucks.



 They gave the show a home for 5 seasons.  The show got a proper ending.  I have no beef with the WB.

*The ending:*  Appropriate!  Appropriate!  Appropriate!

It stayed dark and witty the entire time.  I actually did a little cheer when Connor showed up (I never liked that character) which is something.  Wes finally bite off more than he could chew but he went out like a champ.  My only regret is that it should have been twin guns in his hands but magic works, too.  

Lorne.  Wow.  I have no words.

Gunn got his groove back.

Lindsey got what was coming to him.

Spike's final celebration and refusal to wear any jewerly were priceless.  

Illyria's last punch for Wes - that looked like it hurt.

My final thoughts were that it was so good that it barely felt like 40 minutes went by.  My mouth was left hanging open at so many moments, many are listed above.  I laughed, I was shocked and in the end I was satisfied.  Well done to the Angel Team.  I can wait until Mutant Enemy's next TV project.

4 stars out of 4.


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## Hoodooman (May 20, 2004)

The hordes of Hell coming after the Angel gang at the end was awesome!  
It was so LOTR.  Plus it is right out of Hunter: The Reckoning's ending scenario in World of Darkness Time of Judgment.  One last damn hurrah and they die on their own terms, fighting the evil Senior Partners.

Wes's death did have a little bit of foreshadowing:  When Wes looks back at Angel for the last time before he goes to fight the Wizard, you know Wes ain't coming back and that's sad!
 

But I liked Illyria's part the best when she tells Wes:  "Do you want me to lie to you now?"  Best scene-then Illyria kicks the Wizard's butt! Slam in the head!  Awesome!


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## BrooklynKnight (May 20, 2004)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> Was he on Roseanne? one of the doughters husbands I think? How did he die?



Yes he was.

He died either from a Heart Attack (yes i know he was young) or a car accident. I dont remember which.


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## John Crichton (May 20, 2004)

BrooklynKnight said:
			
		

> He died either from a Heart Attack (yes i know he was young) or a car accident. I dont remember which.



I could have sworn that Quinn died because of a drug overdose...


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## shilsen (May 20, 2004)

Excellent closing episode. I'm sorry to see the show go, but at least it finished very appropriately, IMO.


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## LightPhoenix (May 20, 2004)

Yeah, he died of a drug overdose.

Great ending.

Wesley had to die, because Wes is a tragic hero, and that's what tragic heroes do best.  Even knowing it was coming though it was awesome.  Now, Lorne killing Lindsey, _that_ was something.  Oof.  Why couldn't we have had Season 5 Connor in previous seasons?  Also, Gunn/Richards rocks.  I'm sad to see him go, and I hope he gets more work.  And it looks like he borrowed a few toys from Wes at the end there...  

This ending could have gone either way for it to be a cliffhanger.  I agree it works in the context of not being one.  This episode worked as an ending the same exact way _Farscape's_ last episode worked as an ending.  On the other hand, I'm assuming Joss _didn't_ want his show cancelled... in which case this _was_ a cliffhanger.


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## blindrage (May 20, 2004)

It ended the right way.   With their backs against the wall and smiles on their faces.  Fighting the good fight with those who stand with you to the bitter end.   Crom will be proud!


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## Mog Elffoe (May 20, 2004)

Man, I didn't want it to end.  I love how it ended with the team going out (?) fighting.  Almost a fantasy 'Butch Cassiday & The Sundance Kid' sort of ending.

Great moments:
Lorne as hitman.
Lindsey's dying words:  "I don't get killed by a flunky...  Angel kills me..."
The way Spike spent his last day.
Illyria 'lying' to Wes.
The hordes of Hell (giants and dragons and everything) converging on the last of the heros.  

Favorite line:
"Me personally?  I kinda want to slay the dragon..."

Minor Nitpick:
I really would've liked to have seen Wes go out with two guns in his hands.

Curse the WB!  Curse them!


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## Red Spire Press (May 20, 2004)

Truly beautiful finale. The wife and I are quite sad that the one show we really loved is gone, but we couldn't have asked for a better ending.

Wes was probably my favorite character of the series. The amount of character development he went through was phenomenal while remaining thoroughly believable. I was very sad to see him go, but at the same time I am glad that Joss chose a truly profound death rather than a cop out (Illyria would have been an easy card to toss, seeing as she was basically just a dead Fred).

I loved how every member of the team had their mark, and the manner in which their mini battles were portrayed. Very empowering for each character and a real honor to them as individuals.

Lindsey's betrayal was a shock. I have liked his character ever since he was introduced as the confused prettyboy lawyer at W&H, and I admit to a certain exhilaration when he started talking about being a member of the team. His assassination by Lorne (at Angel's instruction) was very very strong.

Angel giving up the Shanshu. This was a shocker. The series had seemed to be leading up to Angel (or possible Spike as of Season 5) regaining his humanity. It was a driving factor that went unfilfilled. Again, a very powerful maneuver.

The actual ending... the remains of Team Angel, battered and ready to go up against a demon horde. And then of course Angels' great line about the dragon, as mentioned by everyone else. One of those bitterly beautiful moments as you realize it's a perfect ending even as you are kept from seeing what will ever happen.

I loved this show. This was a great ending. Can't say the last time I felt emotional about the end of a show...   

Cheers.


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## myrdden (May 20, 2004)

What else can be said that already hasn't been said?

That is how you end a series (on short notice).

My only nitpick is that I wish it had been a two hour (wishful thinking...hour and a half maybe) episode to more fully wrap things up.

My wife is mourning the loss of Wes, but as another stated he was a tragic hero.  Although a more blazing ending for him would have been more desirable.

What else can I say?

Oh yeah...curse the WB!


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## Henry (May 20, 2004)

The Link is pleased. 

My favorite line? Strangely, not the dragon line, but: "Would you like for me to lie to you now?" It brought a smile to my face in a really gloomy scene. 

Illyria turns human - Wesley, the one "least fit to teach her about humanity," was ultimately the ONLY one who could. Gunn likely dies and joins Wes and Fred in the hereafter - or at least Wes; the dynamic duo keeps going!

I honestly believe Spike would live through it all - he's the strongest after Angel, he was the least hurt it seemed, and when Angel signed away his claim to Xanshu, that meant (and the look on his face, he KNEW it) that Spike is the one who is supposed to "live until he dies." Beautiful moment, and beautiful ending.

Lorne, hired gun - awesome. I see why he left after that - he's a gentle guy, loves music and laughter, he was not supposed to go down fighting. But he was loyal to Angel to the end, I have to respect that. Lindsey's pained look and statement at the end; he EXPECTED to die, but was hurt that Angel did not do it himself. Very well done.

Finally, the scenes with Connor are very touching, and put a good cap on that storyline. He understood, given the context of a "normal" childhood, what Angel did for him, and was grateful. That's what Angel fought for and possibly died for.

I honestly HAVE no complaints: Hats off to Joss, Jeffrey Bell and crew to a wonderful episode.


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## Vocenoctum (May 20, 2004)

hmm, I guess I'm the only one that would have prefered them meeting in the alley and just ending it there, without the cheesy horde charging at them...

Ah well.

Excellent episode, I wish it had been longer because the scene's seemed too short. Illyria shifting as she popped the guy was great. It would have been nice to see Wes running & gunning, but the time constraints...

Harmony was fun, Spike was great, Lorne was perfect. I only wish Angel had killed Eve instead of letting her go.

I also didn't care for Baldwin's character, shades of the Buffy end Uber Guy, whatsisname.

Ah well, great episode, good way to drop it.


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## John Crichton (May 20, 2004)

Mog Elffoe said:
			
		

> Man, I didn't want it to end. I love how it ended with the team going out (?) fighting. Almost a fantasy 'Butch Cassiday & The Sundance Kid' sort of ending.
> 
> Great moments:
> Lorne as hitman.
> ...



Read my first post...

Great minds and all dat...


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## Banshee16 (May 20, 2004)

Can someone please tell me what happened in the finale?  I don't care if there's  a spoiler warning or anything...

I was looking forward to seeing the ep, but for some reason, couldn't get it, which is rather disheartening..

Banshee


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## Green Knight (May 20, 2004)

> It really was what he wanted most of all, actually: to be reunited with the real Fred




Unfortunately that can never be. Fred's soul was completely destroyed.  That had to be the most upsetting part, though. Wesley's definitely one of my favorite characters of the whole Buffyverse, so it's sad to see him go. 

Anyway, yes, it was a great finale. And yeah, I'm disappointed that the WB cancelled it. This was the only show I bothered watching on network tv, anymore, and now it's over. Didn't think I'd be, but I'm actually a bit depressed about it. It's given me several years of solid entertainment, and for it to end...  Not to mention that it and shows like it have completely spoiled me. I can't tolerate most of the garbage that passes for entertainment on network tv, anymore. So once Angel's gone, I doubt I'll find a replacement for it. 



> I honestly believe Spike would live through it all - he's the strongest after Angel, he was the least hurt it seemed, and when Angel signed away his claim to Shanshu, that meant (and the look on his face, he KNEW it) that Spike is the one who is supposed to "live until he dies." Beautiful moment, and beautiful ending.




I agree. He'll probably be the only one to walk out of that alleyway. Poor Gunn. No way he can survive that.  But I've heard that James Marsters is interested in continuing with the character, so that more then anything else leads me to believe that Spike'll survive it. Nevermind that, as you said, Angel signed away the Shanshu Prophecy. Which means that if both Angel and Spike died there, then yet ANOTHER vampire with a soul would have to appear, somewhere. Not likely, so Spike has to live. 

Whatever the case, if there're any future shows in the Slayerverse, I'm there. Just hope some of the rumors I've heard pan out. :\


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## Green Knight (May 20, 2004)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> Read my first post...
> 
> Great minds and all dat...




Heh. Spike's "efulgent" poem was better received in this century then when he wrote it.  Eat your heart out, Cecily.


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## John Crichton (May 20, 2004)

Green Knight said:
			
		

> Heh. Spike's "efulgent" poem was better received in this century then when he wrote it.  Eat your heart out, Cecily.



 Well, that and it is a half-drunk badass delivering it now instead of a wussy British ponce...


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## stevelabny (May 20, 2004)

best. finale. evar.

I'm so eloquent.


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## Tiberius (May 20, 2004)

Green Knight said:
			
		

> Unfortunately that can never be. Fred's soul was completely destroyed.




Well, this may or may not be true.  On the one hand, Illyria was telling Wesley about being able to be with Fred while she was lying to him, but on the other it has been previously pointed out on this board that the only people who asserted that Fred's soul was "consumed in the fires of resurrection" were evil Illyria worshipers.  While I can't see any reason why they should lie, they are not the most objective sources.  I'm not sure we'll ever know the truth of the matter.

Great episode.  Though my wife was irked by the fact that it didn't end on a clear final note, but rather left the fate of Angel's Avengers )) in doubt.  I was surprised by the casualties.  I expected Gunn to be the one to die and Wes to be the one disillusioned with the good fight.  After all, he's spent the past 6 years getting dumped on for trying to do the right thing.  Still, it was cool, and a great end to a character whose journey was so long and eventful.


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## Tarrasque Wrangler (May 20, 2004)

*Good night, sweet Buffyverse, and may a flight of Trogdors sing thee to thy rest.*

I'm a little choked up over here.

 That was the most beautiful, action-packed, emotionally resonant, keep-me-on-the-edge-of-my-seat hour of television I've ever seen.  Finales don't get any better than this.  It amazed me, in the end, that Joss was able to cobble such an amazing series-ender from a midseason network notice that totally blew away the Buffy finale which was planned from the start of its season.

 My favorite bit?  Where do I begin, Joss outdid himself tonight:  "I kinda wanna slay the dragon."  "I want you, Lindsay."  "I'd keep packing the truck. (or whatever it was she said.  It was somthing good)"  "Looks like you guys need a new candidate."  "Can you guess which word of that sentence you shouldn't have said?"  "No pendants, necklaces, amulets, etc.."  "I crap better magic than that."

 Well, as I bid a fond farewell to the Buffyverse I would like to take the opposite tack so many posters have taken here and THANK the WB and UPN for taking a chance on 12 seasons worth of the best television I've ever watched.  I'd like to thank Joss Whedon for writing stories and characters that entertained, inspired and challenged me.  And most of all, I'd like to thank my friend Justina, wherever she is tonight, for talking me into watching that goofy Vampire Slayer show 6 years ago.


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## John Crichton (May 20, 2004)

Tarrasque Wrangler said:
			
		

> Well, as I bid a fond farewell to the Buffyverse I would like to take the opposite tack so many posters have taken here and THANK the WB and UPN for taking a chance on 12 seasons worth of the best television I've ever watched. I'd like to thank Joss Whedon for writing stories and characters that entertained, inspired and challenged me. And most of all, I'd like to thank my friend Justina, wherever she is tonight, for talking me into watching that goofy Vampire Slayer show 6 years ago.



Again, great minds and all that.  I'm right there with ya.  

I don't think this is the end of the Buffyverse.  Joss has to have something else up his sleeve.  Alyson Hannigan's sitcom didn't get picked up, James Marsters has interested in playing Spike again and Nick Brendon isn't doing anything at the moment...


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## Tarrasque Wrangler (May 20, 2004)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> Again, great minds and all that.  I'm right there with ya.
> 
> I don't think this is the end of the Buffyverse.  Joss has to have something else up his sleeve.  Alyson Hannigan's sitcom didn't get picked up, James Marsters has interested in playing Spike again and Nick Brendon isn't doing anything at the moment...



 ...hmm, and the Dark Shadows retread didn't get picked up either.  I'd say there's a huge niche to fill...


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## LightPhoenix (May 20, 2004)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> I don't think this is the end of the Buffyverse. Joss has to have something else up his sleeve. Alyson Hannigan's sitcom didn't get picked up, James Marsters has interested in playing Spike again and Nick Brendon isn't doing anything at the moment...



Alright, I'm probably gonna take another unpopular side.   

I really hope that Joss doesn't do anything more with the Buffyverse.  Go out on a high note, use those creative muscles and try to do something truly different, like _Firefly_ was, and move on.

To boot, look at JMS's most successful ventures after _Babylon 5_ - none of them are _B5_ related.  Hell, the only good _B5_ movie was _In The Beginning_, and that was mostly a recap of the series.  _Crusade_ started to grow on me, but it was nothing compared to the original.  On the other hand _Jeremiah_ was great, if relatively unseen due to it being on Showtime.  Not to mention his work in comics.

Oh, and a big old middle finger to Showtime, who really deserves it for not showing the last half of the second season of _Jeremiah_.  I can forgive the WB for a cheesy thank you thingee even though they repeatedly pick up _Charmed_.


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## Mouseferatu (May 20, 2004)

> I really hope that Joss doesn't do anything more with the Buffyverse. Go out on a high note, use those creative muscles and try to do something truly different, like Firefly was, and move on.




I don't see that it has to be either/or, though. There's plenty of room for more interesting stuff in the Buffyverse, without rehashing. If there is a spin-off, I'd like to see it move around a bit, rather than being set largely in one city, just for example. But Joss has shown he can do more than one thing at a time, and he can certainly do more than one thing in succession. I'd love to see new stuff from him, _and_ more Buffyverse material.


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## John Crichton (May 20, 2004)

Tarrasque Wrangler said:
			
		

> ...hmm, and the Dark Shadows retread didn't get picked up either.  I'd say there's a huge niche to fill...



 Yeah.  I thought the sci-fi/fantasy/geek genre shows were scarce this year - next year they are going to be even less.  All that is really left for next year are Alias, Smallville and Enterprise.  Slim pickins.  Am I missing any?


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## Mouseferatu (May 20, 2004)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> Yeah.  I thought the sci-fi/fantasy/geek genre shows were scarce this year - next year they are going to be even less.  All that is really left for next year are Alias, Smallville and Enterprise.  Slim pickins.  Am I missing any?




Doesn't Sci-Fi start its new Battelstar Galactica series next year?

Can't vouche for how _good_ it'll be, but it's a genre show...


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## Tarrasque Wrangler (May 20, 2004)

"Lost", from the guy behind "Alias", sounds like it might be a genre show _incognito._


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## John Crichton (May 20, 2004)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> Doesn't Sci-Fi start its new Battelstar Galactica series next year?



Ah, yes.  I am looking forward to that.  I thought it was a mini-series, tho.  There is Farscape, too but that is certainly a mini...



			
				Tarrasque Wrangler said:
			
		

> "Lost", from the guy behind "Alias", sounds like it might be a genre show _incognito._



Ah!  There's one!    That one catches my interest.


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## LightPhoenix (May 20, 2004)

Also Stargate SG:1 (albeit with limited RDA) and Stargate Atlantis, both of which start in July, if I'm not mistaken.


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## John Crichton (May 20, 2004)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> Alright, I'm probably gonna take another unpopular side.
> 
> I really hope that Joss doesn't do anything more with the Buffyverse. Go out on a high note, use those creative muscles and try to do something truly different, like _Firefly_ was, and move on.



While I would like to see him work on other projects, I think Joss should continue to do things in the Buffyverse.  The characters still are interesting and there are still stories to tell.  I know Joss can pull it off.  I _never_ thought that the Angel spinoff would be any good and boy was I wrong.  Firefly kicked our collective butts.  In Joss I trust.  Buffyverse or no Buffyverse he can do whatever he wants and I'll watch it at this point...



			
				LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> To boot, look at JMS's most successful ventures after _Babylon 5_ - none of them are _B5_ related. Hell, the only good _B5_ movie was _In The Beginning_, and that was mostly a recap of the series. _Crusade_ started to grow on me, but it was nothing compared to the original. On the other hand _Jeremiah_ was great, if relatively unseen due to it being on Showtime. Not to mention his work in comics.
> 
> Oh, and a big old middle finger to Showtime, who really deserves it for not showing the last half of the second season of _Jeremiah_. I can forgive the WB for a cheesy thank you thingee even though they repeatedly pick up _Charmed_.



I like JMS and his work is very good (comics and TV).  But he is no Joss, not when it comes to TV anyway.


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## Grog (May 20, 2004)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> Yeah.  I thought the sci-fi/fantasy/geek genre shows were scarce this year - next year they are going to be even less.  All that is really left for next year are Alias, Smallville and Enterprise.  Slim pickins.  Am I missing any?




I heard a rumor that some of the Angel writers are going over to Alias next year. Anyone know if it's true?


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## John Crichton (May 20, 2004)

Grog said:
			
		

> I heard a rumor that some of the Angel writers are going over to Alias next year. Anyone know if it's true?



Yup, this is fact. Bell, one of the writers of the finale is crossing over as is one other writer who's name eludes me at the moment.

EDIT:  The other writer is Drew Goddard.

And on the Alias front - ABC doesn't plan on showing any new eps until 2005 according to AICN.  Yu-uck.


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## Mouseferatu (May 20, 2004)

> I like JMS and his work is very good (comics and TV). But he is no Joss, not when it comes to TV anyway.




You know, there was a time when them woulda been fightin' wurds. I'm a little calmer now. 

I'll agree, that Joss has got it all over JMS when it comes to dialogue. They're roughly on par when it comes to long-term character development. (I'll put the G'kar character development arc up against Wesley's, and then stand back as the universe explodes, unable to declare which is better.) But I don't think anyone has managed to duplicate the sheer scope of what Babylon 5 was. Even the arc-heavy seasons of Buffy or Angel were not a single epic story like B5 was.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not in _any_ way putting down Joss. Honestly, he probably is a better writer overall than JMS. But I don't think the call is that easy to make, and there are still things JMS has done that Joss has yet to equal.

Though I'd love to see him try. That'd be some _quality_ television.


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## Bill Scott (May 20, 2004)

Jamdin said:
			
		

> My favorite character on _Angel_ died so I am not happy at the way that part of the show ended. The rest of the show was great.




That's my only problem with the episode. Wes, along with Fred/Illyria, is one of my favorite characters on Angel and I got misty eyed when he died with Fred at his side


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## John Crichton (May 20, 2004)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> You know, there was a time when them woulda been fightin' wurds. I'm a little calmer now.



That's good because honestly, I'm a little uninformed.  Let me explain...



			
				Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> I'll agree, that Joss has got it all over JMS when it comes to dialogue. They're roughly on par when it comes to long-term character development. (I'll put the G'kar character development arc up against Wesley's, and then stand back as the universe explodes, unable to declare which is better.) But I don't think anyone has managed to duplicate the sheer scope of what Babylon 5 was. Even the arc-heavy seasons of Buffy or Angel were not a single epic story like B5 was.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I'm not in _any_ way putting down Joss. Honestly, he probably is a better writer overall than JMS. But I don't think the call is that easy to make, and there are still things JMS has done that Joss has yet to equal.
> 
> Though I'd love to see him try. That'd be some _quality_ television.



I'll start off by saying I have seen every Joss-produced second of TV and read a fair amount of his comics.  As for JMS, I have seen a handful of B5 and read a whole lot of his comics.  However, I do know a good deal about B5 even though I never really got into in (I do own the first season on DVD that is sitting around waiting to be given a fair shot).  It sounds to me like apples and oranges for what they have both done concerning TV to this point.  Joss has put together 12 full seasons of TV shows vs. JMS 5 (let's leave Crusade, Firefly, etc out of this for now).  B5 was a complete story, written from the start to have a beginning, middle and end.  That is pretty unique.  I don't think anyone, including Joss has been able to pull anything like that off in the history of TV.  We'll call that a success.

Now Joss has helmed 2 shows that have gotten huge followings that have been set in the same universe but have very different feels and fan bases.  We'll call that 2 successes.  Now by the numbers, the edge for now goes to Joss.  But we all know that isn't the whole story.  And _I_ don't know the whole story as I haven't seen nearly enough B5 to form a solid opinion of it.  Many folks swear by it.  The parts I have seen have either entertained me or left me really flat.  But I never watched it from the start so I hold a wait and see attitude towards it.

So, in closing, I am a huge Joss Whedon fanboy.  Buffy is one of my favorite TV shows of all time and Angel is not far behind.  So just chalk it up to my uniformed opinion at this point.  It boils down to this:  Buffy caught my attention near the end of Season 1 and held it and the half-dozen early episodes of B5 did not.  I keep an open mind but have to show my bias.

Fair enough?


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## Mouseferatu (May 20, 2004)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> So, in closing, I am a huge Joss Whedon fanboy.  Buffy is one of my favorite TV shows of all time and Angel is not far behind.  So just chalk it up to my uniformed opinion at this point.  It boils down to this:  Buffy caught my attention near the end of Season 1 and held it and the half-dozen early episodes of B5 did not.  I keep an open mind but have to show my bias.
> 
> Fair enough?




Oh, sure. No real venom here. 

And I can certainly understand you not getting through the first few eps of B5. The first season was rocky; had some really good stuff, but a lot of--well, not so good. If you can manage, however, it really starts picking up about halfway through--and seasons 2 through 4 are absolutely phenomenal. Some of the best genre TV ever produced. Season 5 goes back to being a bit rocky, but it's still worth watching--especially for the end.


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## Truth Seeker (May 20, 2004)

*The End...the Journey Continues...*

*Angel...Angel ....the gang...ROCK ON!!!!!!!!*


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## Steverooo (May 20, 2004)

Meh!  Apparently, I'm the only one non-plussed...

I didn't expect much, expected no resolution, and maybe a cliff-hanger of an ending...  I didn't get much, didn't get much in the way of resolution, and not even much of a cliff-hanger...

All pretty anti-climactic, to me.  Not bad, as an episode, but not an ending, at all...

So, what for Angel(os), now?  If they all die, well, so be it.  He expected that.  If he "lives", he can go see Connor, again... but then what?  His whole purpose has been signed away...

Buffy, of course, is all set up to become a vampire.  She shared bkood with Dracula, so when she gets killed, or dies, she'll be back three nights later...  And Dawn?  Always bothered me that the Scoobies had The Key to The Universe, and never did diddly-squat with it... (and I can't help but wonder where Xander went).

Whedon has already said that this isn't the end of the Buffyverse, so we'll probably see something, sometime, but no telling what or when.

The promos for this episode made a big deal about Angel finding "his purpose", but I really didn't see it.  Just to resist Wolf, Ram, and Hart?  To wipe out the Senior Partners, their representatives on Earth?

If so, then he's served his purpose, and he can pass from the scene.  Meanwhile, "Miss Cookie Dough" can eventually pop up as the new Vamp with a soul, and the remainders of both teams can join together and use Dawn to take the fight to whatever reality the bigger baddies occupy...

All just supposition, of course.  All we know is that Whedon has said that the Buffyverse isn't done, yet.

Connor?  Spike?  Illyria?  Gunn (if he survives)?  Who knows.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (May 20, 2004)

So... Might anyone want to give me a plot synopsis - I might have to wait a few years till the end of Angel shows on German TV...


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## Hand of Evil (May 20, 2004)

A little speculation - Angel gives up becoming human but does he?  He signs the document in blood and uses the name Angel but that is only his nick name, his real name is (insert name here), so does that make the contract void.


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## Steverooo (May 20, 2004)

*Synopsis:*



			
				Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> So... Might anyone want to give me a plot synopsis - I might have to wait a few years till the end of Angel shows on German TV...




Not a whole lot happens, really...  Angel tells them to live the day like their last, because it might be.  He has something to do, so he sends them off, saying that they'll meet up in an alley, at evening.  Harmony comes running in, wanting to be part of his plan, so he sets her to distract the liason with the senior partners, which she does by sleeping with the enemy...  It appears that she's betraying Angel...

Gunn goes to see some girl who helps people, as asks her about "old old crew", and what she'd do if she knew that it all was controlled by big bads, who would never let it get any better down here... and she replies that she would finish loading this truck.

William the Bloody goes off to drink, fight, and spout (not-so-) bad poetry.  If they showed Lorne, I missed it.

Wes goes off to bandage Illyria, who was hurt by... Dyle, was it?  She asks about his choice, and he espouses that there's nowhere he wants to be...  She empaths that he wants to be with Fred, and he confesses, yes.

Meanwhile, Angel goes to convince Lindsey to join the fight, talks a lot, succeeds, and  gets into a fight with the liason, which goes badly (for Angel).  He's getting beat, until Connor arrives.  Connor says something akin to "What?  You drop by for coffee without the world ending?", and gets beaten by the liason, ontil Angel recovers.  The the liason brags about how he has the blood of Wolf, Ram, and Hart flowing through his veins, to which Angel replies "Can you guess which word you shouldn't have used?", and bites his neck.  After that, the fight goes better (for him), and he slays the liason.

A big earthquake hits, Connor goes "Uh-oh, that's not good, is it?", and Angel tells him to go home, a couple of times...  Wolfram & Hart starts falling apart (Yeah!  At last)!

Angel has assigned everyone someone to take ou, before they meet up in the alley (if they can).  Spike takes out the brotherhood, before rescuing the baby, returning it to it's mother.

Wes and Smurf-Fred-Illyria take on the sorceror who restored Connor's memories...  Wes gets stabbed, mortally wounded, before Illyria finishes with her victims and swoops in to play Fred for him, as he dies.

Gunn takes on the senator from a previous episode, and her vamp bodyguards.  They give him some trouble, before he finally finishes her off.

Angel arrives in the alley, and sees no one, then Spike shows.  Illyria announces that Wes is dead, and she is grieving for him.  Gunn shows up, bloody, stating that he is back in the groove.  That a dragon flies past, as a bunch of bad guys start making noise.

Spike asks what do they do now, as the horde closes in.  Angel says that fight, and he wants to slay the dragon.  Spike helps Gunn up, and the series ends with an anti-climactic cliff-hanger of a non-ending that should have led to next season...

Oh yeah, and before Angel arrives, Lorne shoots Linseys with a gun, then drops it, and walks away...


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## KidCthulhu (May 20, 2004)

I was pleased.  I think the first 1/2 hour was very disjointed feeling (like most of this season) and while certain moments shone, I felt like Joss had a lot of threads he was struggling with.  Once he had the reins in his hands again, though, the thing was beautiful.  For me the turn around was the sending the teams off to their fights, and the results.  And Lorne's shooting Lindsay was the moment I knew Joss was back.

Really a lot like the last episode of Buffy.  A little wobbly at the start, but it picked up momentum, and really flew at the end.


----------



## CrusaderX (May 20, 2004)

Good finale, but they really should have upped the budget for the last scene with the horde o' monsters closing in on the gang.  Something akin to the horde of orcs closing in on the Fellowship in Moria in FOTR (now THAT was a powerful scene).  Of course I don't expect a TV show to actually match the level of special effects found in a movie like FOTR, but the onrushing Wolfram and Hart horde last night really looked like something out of a B-movie (or C or D movie, even).  Spend a few more bucks and really go out with a bang.  The dragon nonwithstanding, the bad guys just didn't look bad enough.


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## Laurel (May 20, 2004)

I love the show, and though sad to see it go look forward to Whedon doing more with the universe.
The one liners were awsome from last night, and having followed Wes from Buff thought it was good to see a nice send off for him.
I think everything has been said


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## Laurel (May 20, 2004)

CrusaderX said:
			
		

> Good finale, but they really should have upped the budget for the last scene with the horde o' monsters closing in on the gang. Something akin to the horde of orcs closing in on the Fellowship in Moria in FOTR (now THAT was a powerful scene). Of course I don't expect a TV show to actually match the level of special effects found in a movie like FOTR, but the onrushing Wolfram and Hart horde last night really looked like something out of a B-movie (or C or D movie, even). Spend a few more bucks and really go out with a bang. The dragon nonwithstanding, the bad guys just didn't look bad enough.



The show has been B-rated through the years, but that added to its charm.  It also gives the feeling of: yeah there are lots of them, but hey they can still win.  That feel good/hopeful feeling for the team.


----------



## Laurel (May 20, 2004)

double post


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## Green Knight (May 20, 2004)

> Well, this may or may not be true. On the one hand, Illyria was telling Wesley about being able to be with Fred while she was lying to him, but on the other it has been previously pointed out on this board that the only people who asserted that Fred's soul was "consumed in the fires of resurrection" were evil Illyria worshipers.




Notice the word "lying". She was lying to him, trying to comfort him, so she told him what he wanted to hear. 



> I don't think this is the end of the Buffyverse. Joss has to have something else up his sleeve. Alyson Hannigan's sitcom didn't get picked up, James Marsters has interested in playing Spike again and Nick Brendon isn't doing anything at the moment...




Eh, I've just about had enough of Xander and Willow. I hope we never see them again, save for the occasional guest appearance. 



> started to grow on me, but it was nothing compared to the original.




Do I NEED to go into my rant about how TNT completely sabotaged Crusade in every conceivable way?


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## Pielorinho (May 20, 2004)

Wonderful finale! On the Bronze Beta messageboard (according to someone at yet a third messageboard), Joss posted the following: 


			
				Joss Whedon said:
			
		

> Joss: Can't stay long. Wanted to say thank you one more time, to all of you except anyone who ever criticized anything ever at all. I came on these boards in Buffy's first year and the support -- and even the criticism -- has been more helpful than I can type. I set out in television with one simple goal: to purchase a russian bride. Didn't work out. Immigration stuff -- it's complicated. But I did get to make this show, and that other one, and that other other one, and meet some of the best artists and the best friends I've ever known.
> 
> I had dinner with Tim Minear the other night, and we talked about what kind of show we want to make next. And it always comes back to the same themes... people getting strength.
> People helping out. People being thankful for whatever they have, be it power, a decent life, or a fun-tastic russian bride. And I'm thankful that for the last eight years my cohorts and I got to feel like the superheroes. 'Cause of y'all. I don't know if the Buffyverse is going to return to TV, but I hope so, and I know we'll be putting SOMETHING out there. Maybe on HBO, 'cause I like me some cussin'.
> ...





Personally, I'm glad the show ended when it did: it was very sad to watch Buffy peter out instead of going out with a bang, whereas this show ended near the top of its form. Wesley's death was tragic, but c'mon, this is Joss we're talking about. He loves to hurt his characters. He's a rat bastard through and through.

Daniel


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## Jeremy (May 20, 2004)

Some of the little things I love that I want to highlight:

Lindsey and Angel

"Angel, the vampire with big brass testes."

Lindsey's swordplay.

Only got a glimpse of it, but in that moment it evinced better skill than I am used to seeing and I liked the touch.

Connor's confirmation.

That's the interpretation that I went with.  He got his memories back, but because he didn't lose the fake memories or the happy childhood, he was able to appreciate the gift and the sacrifice.

Angel slamming his fist into the non-reactive Hamilton.

"Did that even hurt a little?"

He's so nice to make Angel feel better about himself before throwing him through the Wolfram and Hart sign.

Lorn getting back on the mic.

Spike getting back on the mic.

Gunn kicking more ass solo than human has a right to.  

Lindsey's coming to honestly like being part of a team fighting the senior partners.

Lorn's very final ending of Lindsey and his explanation of it.

If you ask me, Angel didn't ask him to do it.  Lorn decided to do it because while he understood Angel's choice to use evil to fight evil, on some level he didn't agree with it.  And he sacrificed a little of his joy and a little of his soul to spare the world from what Lindsey would do if he got control of Wolfram and Hart.

***

I didn't see anything in the oncoming legion that looked like it could take Angel, Spike, and Illyria fighting together.  I didn't see anything in there that looked like it could take Illyria solo.  But Spike's very eloquent description of Gunn's condition and Illyria's point blank confirmation of him being dead in a few moments pretty much confirm for me that he's going down.

How aggravating to the senior partners is it going to be when their big plan to stifle Angel and Co pays off with the destruction of their most powerful servants (including a liason charged with their essence), and when they vent and send a legion after him, the remnants of a demon older than they aids in them destroying everything that was sent.

You'd think with all the power the Senior Partners had they could have at least armed their men with a few stakes.    Beat on the Vamps all you like, it doesn't tend to kill them.


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## Cthulhudrew (May 20, 2004)

_Jeremy pontificated:_



> Lorn's very final ending of Lindsey and his explanation of it.
> 
> If you ask me, Angel didn't ask him to do it.  Lorn decided to do it because while he understood Angel's choice to use evil to fight evil, on some level he didn't agree with it.  And he sacrificed a little of his joy and a little of his soul to spare the world from what Lindsey would do if he got control of Wolfram and Hart.




I agree. At first I thought Angel asked him to do it, but the more I reflect, the more I think that Lorne and Lindsey were together because Angel knew Lorne couldn't handle the demons by himself, so he recruited Lindsey to protect his friend. To do so, he had to make a deal with Lindsey, and Lorne didn't want to do that sort of thing anymore. Like he said, "I've heard you sing." He knew that whatever Lindsey was feeling in the heat of the moment, Lorne had seen his soul before (and future) and knew he was evil.

Frankly, I think seeing and working with all the evil over the year must have been tougher for Lorne than anyone else. I mean, anytime someone started humming at W&H or singing or whatever, he'd see their true natures (everyone else would just hear singing). Must have been rough on the guy.

I was kind of surprised, though, because when I first heard that they were going to make some cast changes next season (when they were still thinking they'd get renewed) I immediately figured Lindsey would be becoming one of the team, and this episode sure seemed to be setting that up... until, "Blammo!"


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## Grog (May 20, 2004)

Green Knight said:
			
		

> Eh, I've just about had enough of Xander and Willow. I hope we never see them again, save for the occasional guest appearance.




Funny, I feel the same way about Spike...

As far as Xander and Willow, I'd like to see them the way they were in the first few years of Buffy (it'll never happen, I know, but...) I liked it when Xander and Willow were best friends, instead of just people who saw each other occasionally.


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## Pielorinho (May 20, 2004)

The idea that Lorn killed Lindsey on his own hadn't even occurred to me, but I really like it.  It makes the scene even more painful.

Daniel


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## RangerWickett (May 20, 2004)

I want to take a poll.  Who thinks they survived, and how much?

I personally think they all died, except perhaps Spike staggering away from the piles of bodies, having been knocked out and left for dead.  I interpreted the giant faceless horde of dark monsters, including the giant dark shape in the background and the dragon in the sky, as being an unstoppable horde, and what we saw was just the first wave.  The heroes would fight and try to stop as much evil as they could, because it was what's right to do, but none of them had any illusions about coming out of that alive.

That makes Gunn's mortal wound less depressing, more heroic.  He'll fight even though he's horribly injured, because he wants to go down with his friends.  They're all going to die, but Gunn, the human, has the strongest spirit of them all at the end.

But yeah, Angel gets to slay his dragon.  And he'll do it with a smile, trying to make sure not to enjoy himself too much as he sticks it to the man, just in case he might get happy.  You wouldn't like him when he's happy.


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## Red Spire Press (May 20, 2004)

Pielorinho said:
			
		

> The idea that Lorn killed Lindsey on his own hadn't even occurred to me, but I really like it.  It makes the scene even more painful.
> 
> Daniel



While an intriguing possibility, I still believe Angel was behind it. At the very least, he knew about it. Remember that when Eve asked where Lindsey was at the end, Angel said "Lindsey's not coming for you," knowing he would be killed.


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## Cthulhudrew (May 20, 2004)

Steverooo said:
			
		

> So, what for Angel(os), now?  If they all die, well, so be it.  He expected that.  If he "lives", he can go see Connor, again... but then what?  His whole purpose has been signed away...
> 
> ... The promos for this episode made a big deal about Angel finding "his purpose", but I really didn't see it.  Just to resist Wolf, Ram, and Hart?  To wipe out the Senior Partners, their representatives on Earth?
> 
> If so, then he's served his purpose, and he can pass from the scene.  Meanwhile, "Miss Cookie Dough" can eventually pop up as the new Vamp with a soul, and the remainders of both teams can join together and use Dawn to take the fight to whatever reality the bigger baddies occupy...




What I got from this episode is that Angel and the Gang finally came to the realization that the fight against is evil *is* the purpose. They're not doing it for the rewards that might possibly await them- Angel's dialog with Hamilton pretty much is about this exact thing. "I'll never understand why you people do this." "You people who don't care never will understand." (followed by one of the best lines, by Hamilton, "Yes, but we won't care.")

Angel signed away the Shanshu (how can you sign away a prophecy, though? Anyway) He signed it away because, this season more than any other, he has come to realize that he isn't fighting to become a human, he's fighting because its the right thing to do, and because he can. It's definitely been a gradual realization, but one that sank home this season more than any others, I think (and largely due to the Spike/Angel fighting for the Shanshu ordeal... sadly, I think Spike was largely wasted the latter half of the season, but I love Spike. Hope he gets a series.)

The others have come to this realization, too. Witness Gunn's discussion with Annie ("What would you do if I told you it wouldn't make a difference?" "I'd keep loading this truck.") Lorne realizes it- and he's at a point at the end of this season reminiscent of Angel's pre-Buffy days as a result. Spike realizes it- he's come to this point over the course of events since his Buffy days, as well as this season. Wes I think has known it longer than any of them, but it really sank in for him with Fred's death. He kept on fighting after that because he knew that was the thing to do.

That's one reason I think Lindsey had to die. Even if his "change of heart" had taken (and there are a number of times during the course of the series that lead me to believe Lindsey could have redeemed himself and taken another path), he hadn't come to the same realization. He's still living in a "fantasy" world ("You gave up your immortality for me. It's like a fantasy," he tells Eve when he's getting ready to go.) He is just fighting for the rewards he thinks he'll get- the girl, the firm, the glory. Not the reason to do it.

So whoever survives will continue the good fight- and I suspect, if they ever do another series or movie or whatnot that they all pull through. Illyria's just too tough to be killed by anything other than a Hamilton-strong demon; Angel and Spike are just tough (Angel may still have some Hamilton/Partner strength to boot), and Gunn- though I didn't always like the character, will probably pull through just because.

It's funny- I stuck through this series all the way (well, I had to stop watching mid-4th season, or whenever the Cordy/Connor thing happened) and always wanted it to be good. Despite a few misses this season (mostly at the end- the Spike/Angel Rome episode was bad, and the Black Thorn thing came too suddenly) this was a great season, made me want more. They really *got* what Angel should have been all along, and now it's over. They even got me to like Connor! (Like someone else said, if Connor had been like this all along, he'd have been cool.) Now it's all done. But what a way to go. Liked it.


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## Cthulhudrew (May 20, 2004)

Red Spire Press said:
			
		

> While an intriguing possibility, I still believe Angel was behind it. At the very least, he knew about it. Remember that when Eve asked where Lindsey was at the end, Angel said "Lindsey's not coming for you," knowing he would be killed.




Someone else pointed this out, and it's probably true. However, I tell myself that Angel didn't think *anyone* was going to make it through, so it still leaves the possibility open (and I really like the idea of Lorne doing it on his own- he's certainly shown himself capable of some unexpected actions this season). 

I dig that it's vague enough that there are possibilities of different interpretations, though.

(BTW, one thing that's always bugged me. I don't recall them ever addressing that Lorne set Angel up to get killed in their first meeting- when he sent him off to meet the "guru" guy that was going to help him out. Did I miss something where they actually discussed it? It always struck me as pretty cutthroat from a guy who later turned out to be (mostly) a pussycat.)


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## wolff96 (May 20, 2004)

First off, wow.

I hate that it had to end, but that was one hell of a bang to go out on. The best exchange of the night was when Angel was talking to gang and said one would betray him. Spike _instantly_ raises his hand. After Angel explains it, Spike's reply is, "Can I at least deny you three times?"

Well, that and the dragon line. Heh.



			
				RangerWickett said:
			
		

> I want to take a poll.  Who thinks they survived, and how much?




Illyria survived. It's more depressing that way. She is still incredibly powerful but now has absolutely no connection to anything and no reason to keep going. Gunn didn't have long to live anyway, Angel would have been target number one, and Spike is good... but not that good.

--------------

Personally, I'd like to see a spin-off with Faith, the Principle, and Willow. They travel around and do what they can. In the second season, something happens to the Principle. After that, Willow and Faith continue, supporting each other through the tough times. Together, eventually as a couple, fighting the good fight. 

Now all we need is to free up Elisha Dushku... Oh, wait, no problem. If there is *any* justice in the world, True Calling should be dead in a season or so.


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## Mouseferatu (May 20, 2004)

Regarding Angel "signing away" the Shanshu prophecy, has it occurred to anyone else that he may have signed a worthless piece of paper? The Circle didn't have to _actually_ thwart the prophecy, assuming they even had the power to do so. They just had to make Angel _think_ there was no hope, to serve their purposes. (And it didn't work, since Angel's finally realized, as someone else said, that the purpose is the fight, not the reward.)

Still, should we ever see Angel again, I don't think Shanshu is entirely out of the question.


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## myrdden (May 20, 2004)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> Angel signed away the Shanshu (how can you sign away a prophecy, though? Anyway)




I thought about that too.  How do you sign away a prophecy?  It's not a contract afterall.  I think it was a ruse by the Circle to test Angel's fortitiude and desires one last time.  I think it was left ambiguous enough that it could be interpreted either way.

In the end, Angel really did beleive he signed away his future and in doing so it gave him a clearer insight into his purpose.

Still mad the show is cancelled.


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## myrdden (May 20, 2004)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> Regarding Angel "signing away" the Shanshu prophecy, has it occurred to anyone else that he may have signed a worthless piece of paper? The Circle didn't have to _actually_ thwart the prophecy, assuming they even had the power to do so. They just had to make Angel _think_ there was no hope, to serve their purposes. (And it didn't work, since Angel's finally realized, as someone else said, that the purpose is the fight, not the reward.)
> 
> Still, should we ever see Angel again, I don't think Shanshu is entirely out of the question.





D'OH...you posted just before me.


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## Tarrasque Wrangler (May 20, 2004)

Steverooo said:
			
		

> So, what for Angel(os), now? If they all die, well, so be it. He expected that. If he "lives", he can go see Connor, again... but then what? His whole purpose has been signed away...



 His reward was signed away, not his purpose.  That was Angel & Co.'s final realization, that the good fight _is_ what matters.



> Buffy, of course, is all set up to become a vampire. She shared bkood with Dracula, so when she gets killed, or dies, she'll be back three nights later... And Dawn? Always bothered me that the Scoobies had The Key to The Universe, and never did diddly-squat with it... (and I can't help but wonder where Xander went).



 Wrong and wrong.  First off, Buffy did die after the Dracula episode, in the fifth season ender "The Gift".  She did not rise as a vampire because, well, that's just not how it works in the Buffyverse.  Vamp has to drain all your blood and give you a taste of his own.  They did mention that Dracula worked differently, but I got the feeling it was more for an atmospheric, seduction thingy than a real mechanical difference.  Anyway, the point is moot because she DID die later and DIDN'T rise as a vamp.

 As for Dawn, her power was pretty much a one-shot deal.  Basically, she still is the Key, but there's no door anymore.  It was sealed when Buffy fell through it.  And even if some portal somewhere existed that she could open, they'd have to kill her to open and close it - she's not a magic item they could just turn on and off at will.

 And Xander?  Didn't Andrew say something about him being in South America?  I can't remember exactly where, but he was mentioned.


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## Henry (May 20, 2004)

A few more thoughts:

-I think that Angel is still the originator of that plan. Between the statement to Eve, and Lorne telling Angel "after this... I'm out", I think he did exactly what Angel asked. Angel was also pleased that Lorne was out of it, because Lorne could NOT have stood against what they fought.

-I think Angel DID sign away his right to the prophecy. Keep in mind that the prophecy was "the Vampire with a soul" - it still doesn't have to be Angel - or Spike for that matter, even if they are the only two we know about. Armageddon is not yet here, according to the series, and there is time for a THIRD vampire to arise, even. Heck, for all we know, it could be Buffy two years from now.  So what he's signing, ostensibly, is a compact that he will NOT play a part in the armageddon - I'm assuming his soul is forfeit or some such, so that he would no longer be, "the vampire with a soul." Well, guess what - he didn't play into the armageddon, he plans to die long before that.


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## William Ronald (May 20, 2004)

I was impressed with the series finale on many levels.

The story of Angel, and of the entire Buffyverse, is one of redemption.  Angel realized it is the fight against evil, not the hope of some utopia, that is his purpose.  Wesley seemed to have realized this sometime ago, and his death has a tragic finality.  On some level, I suspect Wes was reunited with Fred.  It is clear that none of the various cults or even the heroes had all the answers, so perhaps part of Fred did survive after all.

It was because of Wesley that Illyria came to know compassion and regret.  In a sense, Wesley was her redemption.  The last moments with Wesley were very powerful, as was her attack on the wizard.  The old wise one thought he saw a weeping girl, and was revealed as a fool. (There was a brief scene showing the old wizard's shock as "Fred" turned back into Illyria.)

It was surprising to see Connor, who also finally proved his true worth and showed signs of his true potential.  (This is an improvement from one of the most unreliable, self-centered characters on television.)

Angel's rejection of the Shensu prophecy was a symbol of his willingness to fight, and sacrifice on behalf of the world.  As such, it showed that he was worthy of the reward -- because it was the struggle, not the reward, that gave Angel meaning.

Lorne's part in the matter is a little harder to fathom, although I suspect Angel was behind Lindsey's death.  It makes Lindsey's last words even more appropriate.

As for the battle, Gunn knew he had minutes to live from Illyria's statement. Angels words to Gunn were a very fitting cap to the series "Then make those minutes count."  (The dragon line was priceless.)

My gut instincts tell me that Angel, Spike, and Illyria survived.  In a way, this would be fitting.  Two of them once rejected their humanity, but through magic regained their souls.  One scorned humanity, but because of one remarkable man -- Wesley -- seemed to gain a soul.  I don't know what the future holds for the Buffyverse, but it was a great adventure.  Thanks to Joss Whedon for his hard work, and to the actors for making the fantastic seem real.


----------



## Cthulhudrew (May 20, 2004)

William Ronald said:
			
		

> As for the battle, Gunn knew he had minutes to live from Illyria's statement. Angels words to Gunn were a very fitting cap to the series "Then make those minutes count."  (The dragon line was priceless.)




I think he's still got some wiggle room, after all, Illyria's statement was "You're fading. You'll last ten minutes." She didn't explicitly say he'd die in ten minutes, and she's not one to pull punches or make understatements (she told Wesley his wound was mortal). The implication is certainly (along with his injuries) that he had only ten minutes to live, but it could also be taken as "you're going to be passed out from exhaustion and pain in ten minutes, and you'll be no good in a fight at that point". I figure Gun will show up again.


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## Ao the Overkitty (May 20, 2004)

Tarrasque Wrangler said:
			
		

> And Xander?  Didn't Andrew say something about him being in South America?  I can't remember exactly where, but he was mentioned.




In the psycho slayer episode, while Spike and Andrew are patroling, Andrew says Xander is in Africa.  Willow & Kennedy were in South America (specifically Brazil, Rio).


----------



## LightPhoenix (May 21, 2004)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> It sounds to me like apples and oranges for what they have both done concerning TV to this point.
> 
> Fair enough?



No, no fair!!!  

Actually, I would agree.  JMS and Whedon have _vastly_ different styles of writing, but I consider them two of the best, if not the two best sci-fi/fantasy writers to have been on television.  The comparison was such as to draw parallel between them after their career-defining universes, not to compare one's skill to the other.  

Comparing the two of them, I see Whedon being where JMS maybe three years ago.  Both had a show outside of their career-defining universe flounder (_Jeremiah_, _Firefly_).  Both have started to work as writers of comic books... a much less studio-intrusive, less restrictive medium.  They even strike me as similar personalities based on interviews and quotes from the web... hard-working almost to a fault, very intelligent, a bit more than slightly pretentious, and very thankful towards fans.


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## LightPhoenix (May 21, 2004)

In regards to Lindsey's death, Angel did plan it.  After all, after he and Connor kill Hamilton, he tells Eve that "Lindsey's not coming for you," or something along those lines.  He couldn't know Lindsey's fate at that point unless he asked Lorne to kill him.

Also, as to who survived?  Lorne.  Actually, with his line of "you'll never see me again, so don't look," I'm wondering if Lorne killed Lindsey, wandered off, and then committed suicide.  Probably not, but you could easily make a case for it.


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## Tarrasque Wrangler (May 21, 2004)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> Also, as to who survived? Lorne. Actually, with his line of "you'll never see me again, so don't look," I'm wondering if Lorne killed Lindsey, wandered off, and then committed suicide. Probably not, but you could easily make a case for it.



 Remember, though, suicide for his people would not be easy.  He'd have to cut off his head, dismember the body and burn it.

 My guess is he'll tire of fighting demons and become a judge on American Idol.


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## Wolv0rine (May 21, 2004)

Angelsboi should be here for this thread, dammit. :'(


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## Vocenoctum (May 21, 2004)

myrdden said:
			
		

> I thought about that too.  How do you sign away a prophecy?  It's not a contract afterall.  I think it was a ruse by the Circle to test Angel's fortitiude and desires one last time.  I think it was left ambiguous enough that it could be interpreted either way.




For myself, I can't see him being able to sign over redemption. It does occur to me though, that his believing he did and still fighting probably makes him more worthy of the redemption than before.


----------



## Henry (May 21, 2004)

Wolv0rine said:
			
		

> Angelsboi should be here for this thread, dammit. :'(




Incidentally, not to derail the thread too much, but if you want to check on him, his livejournal is here. He can always use a drop-in, assuming you're not doing so already.


----------



## drothgery (May 21, 2004)

I'd have to agree that your standard-issue demonic horde (which is what this looked like) probably doesn't have anyone that could handle Illyria, or that wouldn't need a lucky shot to kill Angel or Spike. Knocking either of the vamps out of the fight would be quite possible, but they'd get up again, eventually.

Of course, it could be that everyone lived who hadn't died by the end of the show, if a bus full of Slayerettes and/or a platoon of Initiative SUVs was just around the corner -- or even just Connor and electro-girl.


----------



## Tarrasque Wrangler (May 21, 2004)

Holy crap, it just dawned on me...

 ...we're never going to find out who was behind the cyborg ninjas/fake Wesley's dad!


----------



## KidCthulhu (May 21, 2004)

Tarrasque Wrangler said:
			
		

> Holy crap, it just dawned on me...
> 
> ...we're never going to find out who was behind the cyborg ninjas/fake Wesley's dad!




And ya'know, I'm really so very ok with that.


----------



## WayneLigon (May 21, 2004)

Henry said:
			
		

> -I think Angel DID sign away his right to the prophecy.



It would certainly fit his idea that they sacrifice all for this once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. Of course, it could also depend on how literal the prophecy is; it looks like he signs it 'Angel', which of course is not his actual real name. But with that scrawl, I can't tell.  He might have put down 'Liam' for all I can tell.


----------



## Crothian (May 21, 2004)

well, finally saw it.  Very good episode, it was what I expected and I figured Wes would die.  He was a tragic hero.  It would have been nice if Angel tried to contacvt some slayers to help, there must be thousands of them out there.


----------



## KnowTheToe (May 21, 2004)

Crothian said:
			
		

> It would have been nice if Angel tried to contacvt some slayers to help, there must be thousands of them out there.





That is the biggest flaw in the Buffy Finale.  All those slayers would have changed the world and balance of power dramatically.  Even if the girls were unaware of their potential or role, they would have been hunted by both the forces of light and darkness.  One for aid, the other for death.  IMO, it was a stupid concept.


Anyway, this was a pretty darned good episode and a fitting end.  I do hope this is the end of the Buffyverse.  I don't ever want to see spike again and I feel the same way about willow and Xander.  Joss had a bad habit of keeping characters around too long and forced relationships that did not fit.  Harmony is the most recent example.  Why would Angel ever hire her or allow her to keep her job????  But, none the less, I am glad I tuned in for the finally.  Too bad Cordy couldn't be there.


----------



## AuroraGyps (May 21, 2004)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> Also, as to who survived?  Lorne.  Actually, with his line of "you'll never see me again, so don't look," I'm wondering if Lorne killed Lindsey, wandered off, and then committed suicide.  Probably not, but you could easily make a case for it.




Actually, I see him becoming an alcholic and addict... perhaps hanging out with the wrong crowd of celebrities.  The events of this season just broke him.  He started drinking after they lost Fred and I see him going in more of a downward spiral with all the events that happened after.

I enjoyed the ending, but was a bit disapointed.  Most likely, it's just because it's the end, but a few things seemed a bit off to me.  
Like, when did Wes started throwing around flaming balls of magical force.  He was the guy to go to for things magical, but usually he was reading his spells from a book.
That's the one that stands out at least.  Otherwise, it had great action, great dialog, and things that I just didn't see coming.


----------



## Bill Scott (May 21, 2004)

wolff96 said:
			
		

> Personally, I'd like to see a spin-off with Faith, the Principle, and Willow. They travel around and do what they can. In the second season, something happens to the Principle. After that, Willow and Faith continue, supporting each other through the tough times. Together, eventually as a couple, fighting the good fight.
> 
> Now all we need is to free up Elisha Dushku... Oh, wait, no problem. If there is *any* justice in the world, True Calling should be dead in a season or so.




Drop the Principle, whatever his name was, and I would like to see that. I would add Kennedy and a new character, or a seldom used one, to the group.


----------



## Jemal (May 21, 2004)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> I think he's still got some wiggle room, after all, Illyria's statement was "You're fading. You'll last ten minutes." She didn't explicitly say he'd die in ten minutes, and she's not one to pull punches or make understatements (she told Wesley his wound was mortal). The implication is certainly (along with his injuries) that he had only ten minutes to live, but it could also be taken as "you're going to be passed out from exhaustion and pain in ten minutes, and you'll be no good in a fight at that point". I figure Gun will show up again.





Personally, I took it to mean (And still do) that she thought he'ld last 10 minutes in a fight.  He wasn't mortally wounded, but even a survivable wound becomes mortal when you carry it into battle.

As for all the cliff-hangers?  That's one of the things I loved about this episode, so much was left up to US, the viewers.
Who decided Lindsey should die, Lorne or AngeL?
What about the Sanshu?
Where did Lorne go afterwards?
Why was there no Slayer involvement?
When is Armageddon if not now?
Will the gang survive the ally-fight?
(There, got Who, what, where, why, and when asked... Took a bit of stretching, but they're all asked.)

So many questions, endless possibilities.. THAT is the perfect way to end a story, by NOT ending it.  If you tie up all the little loose ends, leave a neat and tidy package, then when it's over, it's just... over.  This way the audience has the chance, as we're doing, to think of what happens next.  One of the best qualities any story can have... to continue even after it's over.


----------



## Hand of Evil (May 21, 2004)

Tarrasque Wrangler said:
			
		

> Holy crap, it just dawned on me...
> 
> ...we're never going to find out who was behind the cyborg ninjas/fake Wesley's dad!



This was how Wes was going to be returned to the show: Ninja/robot/rogue demon hunter!


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## Cor Azer (May 21, 2004)

Hand of Evil said:
			
		

> This was how Wes was going to be returned to the show: Ninja/robot/rogue demon hunter!




If that had been the plan, I would have lost much faith in Joss...

Well, likely not, because he'd throw some sort of twist into it, I imagine...


----------



## Henry (May 21, 2004)

AuroraGyps said:
			
		

> Actually, I see him becoming an alcholic and addict... perhaps hanging out with the wrong crowd of celebrities.




You don't mean... Danny Bonaduce!?!?!?! 

Someone just chop Lorne up into spinach NOW. 

Seriously, I could see it. Lorne, softie that he is, seems like the type prone to vary manic swings. He'd be super-guy for several episodes, and extremely hurt and dejected the next. Lorne ultimately needs music in his heart, and a crowd to play to. Hopefully, his character found it in the end.


----------



## Hand of Evil (May 21, 2004)

Henry said:
			
		

> You don't mean... Danny Bonaduce!?!?!?!
> 
> Someone just chop Lorne up into spinach NOW.
> 
> Seriously, I could see it. Lorne, softie that he is, seems like the type prone to vary manic swings. He'd be super-guy for several episodes, and extremely hurt and dejected the next. Lorne ultimately needs music in his heart, and a crowd to play to. Hopefully, his character found it in the end.




It does make you wonder if Lorne saw it coming, Linsey sung for him many times.


----------



## Cthulhudrew (May 21, 2004)

KnowTheToe said:
			
		

> ... Joss had a bad habit of keeping characters around too long and forced relationships that did not fit.  Harmony is the most recent example.  Why would Angel ever hire her or allow her to keep her job???? ...




Well, Angel didn't hire her (she was already in the W&H steno pool), he just allowed her to continue working for him so that he could keep an eye on her. I know, why not just stake her? Dunno, but to say that the gang had to make a lot of compromises this season in order to get at some of the bigger evils, they had to bite the bullet and work with lesser evils. It was one of the big themes, and the reason Lorne left in the end. Same reason Angel was willing to work with Lindsey at the end ("Better the devil you know?")

And it worked out for him in the end, after all. He counted on Harmony's evil to "betray" him to Hamilton, so that Hamilton would come after him at the end and confront him at W&H. Worked according to plan. Good thing Harmony's alarming bent towards good this season turned out to be just another "trendy" thing for her to do and didn't really take.


----------



## Rackhir (May 21, 2004)

AuroraGyps said:
			
		

> Actually, I see him becoming an alcholic and addict... perhaps hanging out with the wrong crowd of celebrities.  The events of this season just broke him.  He started drinking after they lost Fred and I see him going in more of a downward spiral with all the events that happened after.
> 
> I enjoyed the ending, but was a bit disapointed.  Most likely, it's just because it's the end, but a few things seemed a bit off to me.
> Like, when did Wes started throwing around flaming balls of magical force.  He was the guy to go to for things magical, but usually he was reading his spells from a book.
> That's the one that stands out at least.  Otherwise, it had great action, great dialog, and things that I just didn't see coming.




I would tend to agree with you, except that there are things (especially) with magic that you can get away with once, because the price is too high or too difficult to pay to use them more often than that. 

Also, remember Wes's attacks were essentially ineffective against the wizard, however sucessful they may have appeared at first. It was Illyria who actually killed him, so it's not like he suddenly became uber-wizard. I wonder if that is something else that Angel was counting on...

I agree totally with you about Lorne, though. He was a broken demon at the end of the show. Having to kill Lindsey in cold blood like that I suspect is what was the final straw, though he's been heading rapidly downhill since Fred died. She was the only person who was essentially happy in Angel's little band and picking up on her vibes probably helped keep him going, especially at WRH.


----------



## frandelgearslip (May 21, 2004)

I am glad somebody else started this thread and not me because I was planning on calling it "Joss Whedon can go **** himself".

Seriously when I saw the episode all I can think of was "12 seasons and he ends it like that?"

First off the fact that they don't kill evil beings because they make interesting characters (like harmony, drusilla, etc.) finally comes and hurts them and they don't bother to kill harmony because obviously they have not learned there lesson.

Lorne kills lyndsey for no reason that makes any sense to me. Essentially he kills him because the writers wanted him dead but they could not be bothered to come up with something that makes sense.

Then they kill off wesley just making him the third cast member to be killed off this season, come on this is just overkill. I wouldn't have minded if they had killed him off during the third season when his throat was slashed, but this just pisses me off. Its like when they killed of Anya. They think last episode somebody needs to die, but they don't bother to kill off anybody surprising, its ridiculous. Besides its not like he is one of the unluckiest characters in the history of television, stop picking on him kill somebody else like Gunn or better yet Spike.

Then of course they don't even bother ending the episode because its not like its the final episode ever.

Joss Whedon (and David Greenwalt) go **** yourselves


----------



## Kid Charlemagne (May 21, 2004)

On Harmony:  it's a "devil you know" kind of situation, combined with the fact that if they got rid of her, the Senior Partners might find someone _competent_ to spy on Angel.  Angel never really bought any of her professed repenting - heck, he had already written her letter of recommendation and put it on the desk for her before she betrayed him.


----------



## myrdden (May 21, 2004)

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> On Harmony:  it's a "devil you know" kind of situation, combined with the fact that if they got rid of her, the Senior Partners might find someone _competent_ to spy on Angel.  Angel never really bought any of her professed repenting - heck, he had already written her letter of recommendation and put it on the desk for her before she betrayed him.




Also I think the group didn't really consider Harmony a threat, so why bother going after such a little fish when there were much bigger, badder fish all around them.


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## Cthulhudrew (May 21, 2004)

frandelgearslip said:
			
		

> First off the fact that they don't kill evil beings because they make interesting characters (like harmony, drusilla, etc.) finally comes and hurts them and they don't bother to kill harmony because obviously they have not learned there lesson.




If you're referring to Harmony's betrayal of Angel in this episode as evidence of it "coming back to bite them" you may have missed the subtext that- *that was exactly what Angel had planned*. He *knew* she would betray him, and so he used that fact, by having her "occupy" Hamilton. Thus, Hamilton shows up at W&H thinking to stop Angel from killing Sebassis. But Angel had already killed Sebassis, and he was waiting around at W&H specifically for Hamilton. He relied on Harm's evil to enact a situation that he wanted.



> Lorne kills lyndsey for no reason that makes any sense to me. Essentially he kills him because the writers wanted him dead but they could not be bothered to come up with something that makes sense.




Let me get this straight- you hate that the Fang Gang *doesn't* kill off evil beings when they get the chance, leaving them to come back and bite them, *then* you get upset when they *do* kill off the bad guys? I don't follow the reasoning.

Lorne killed Lindsey because Lindsey was a bad guy. He's been a bad guy (with brief twinges of goodness) since episode 1. Now, whether Lorne killed Lindsey on Angel's orders or did it himself is debatable (and deliciously so), but make no mistake. It was done so that he wouldn't just pick up where W&H's "Inner Circle" failed.



> Then of course they don't even bother ending the episode because its not like its the final episode ever.




They did end the episode. They ended it with the gang doing what they've dedicated their lives to doing- fighting off the bad guys. Angel even gets to be the champion "white knight" by fighting the evil dragon. 

This is one of the best series finales since Newhart.


----------



## myrdden (May 21, 2004)

frandelgearslip said:
			
		

> Seriously when I saw the episode all I can think of was "12 seasons and he ends it like that?"




Angel was only on for 5 seasons.  Adding the Buffy seasons is like saying Cheers has been on for 20 seasons.



> First off the fact that they don't kill evil beings because they make interesting characters (like harmony, drusilla, etc.) finally comes and hurts them and they don't bother to kill harmony because obviously they have not learned there lesson.




I don't see where it hurt them.  If you are referring to Harmony, Angel was well aware of her potential for betrayal and used to his advantage against Hamilton (not that it was a great advantage, but it did move events in the direction Angel wanted).



> Lorne kills lyndsey for no reason that makes any sense to me. Essentially he kills him because the writers wanted him dead but they could not be bothered to come up with something that makes sense.




It does make sense though.  If anything, the writers left it vague enough so that viewers can speculate what Lindsay's death was.  Was it part of Angel's plan to remove a potentially powerful player from taking over Wolfram & Hart and bring some justice to Lindsay?  Or was it Lorne taking his own action against someone he really despised?  Personnaly, I think it was Angel who called the shot (so to speak).  The writers definitiely didn't spell out every single detail but like a connect the dot puzzle, the pieces were all there waiting for the viewer to "connect the dots" and fill in the big picture.  I personally think it worked out rather well.



> Then they kill off wesley just making him the third cast member to be killed off this season, come on this is just overkill. I wouldn't have minded if they had killed him off during the third season when his throat was slashed, but this just pisses me off. Its like when they killed of Anya. They think last episode somebody needs to die, but they don't bother to kill off anybody surprising, its ridiculous. Besides its not like he is one of the unluckiest characters in the history of television, stop picking on him kill somebody else like Gunn or better yet Spike.




Wesley was probably the best developed and most interesting character on the show.  I wasn't too thrilled with his death since he was my favourite character but I do not think it was overkill.  Would Gunn's or Spike's death be anymore surprising?  Wesley was the tragic hero of the group and his death really did bring his character evolution full circle.  I would have liked to have seen a more powerful ending for him, but it was only an hour show filled wiht lots to accomplish.

Definitely Anya's death in the final for Buffy was lame.  Actually, the deathitself wasn't so lame as it was the reaction to it.  Especially Xander's.  Wes' exit was not like this at all.  They all knew there was very little chance for all of them to make to the alley.



> Joss Whedon (and David Greenwalt) go **** yourselves




That's a whole lotta hat.


----------



## myrdden (May 21, 2004)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> This is one of the best series finales since Newhart.




D'OH...you posted much faster than I did.

I don't know about Newhart (didn't see it) but I will say it was one of the best finales I have ever seen.


----------



## Cthulhudrew (May 21, 2004)

myrdden said:
			
		

> D'OH...you posted much faster than I did.




Haha. That's why they call me Quick Draw.



> I don't know about Newhart (didn't see it) but I will say it was one of the best finales I have ever seen.




In the finale to Newhart, Dick wakes up in bed with his wife, Emily- you know, from the Bob Newhart show? Turns out the whole "Newhart" series was just a dream of Bob Hartley (his character on the Bob Newhart show). Funny stuff.

I think I remember hearing that Hill Street Blues turned out to be the dream of an idiot savant or something, as well. Never saw that, though.


----------



## Mercule (May 21, 2004)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> I think I remember hearing that Hill Street Blues turned out to be the dream of an idiot savant or something, as well. Never saw that, though.



That was St. Elsewhere, not HSB.  Not that I ever watched an entire epidose of both series, combined, but I am quite sure on St. Elsewhere being an autistic vision (in a snow-globe, IIRC).


----------



## Cthulhudrew (May 21, 2004)

Mercule said:
			
		

> That was St. Elsewhere, not HSB.  Not that I ever watched an entire epidose of both series, combined, but I am quite sure on St. Elsewhere being an autistic vision (in a snow-globe, IIRC).




Oh, yeah. That's right. Wasn't St. Elsewhere a spinoff of HSB, though? Or am I getting that wrong, too?


----------



## Vocenoctum (May 22, 2004)

myrdden said:
			
		

> Wesley was probably the best developed and most interesting character on the show.  I wasn't too thrilled with his death since he was my favourite character but I do not think it was overkill.  Would Gunn's or Spike's death be anymore surprising?  Wesley was the tragic hero of the group and his death really did bring his character evolution full circle.  I would have liked to have seen a more powerful ending for him, but it was only an hour show filled wiht lots to accomplish.
> 
> Definitely Anya's death in the final for Buffy was lame.  Actually, the deathitself wasn't so lame as it was the reaction to it.  Especially Xander's.  Wes' exit was not like this at all.  They all knew there was very little chance for all of them to make to the alley.




Anya's death was so pointless. Emma Caulfield had said she had no intention of playing that character again, so they chose to kill her off.
They could have killed off Robin Wood, or many of the others...

But, Seasons 4-7 of Buffy are why I dislike the whole "In Joss We Trust" statement. For the most part they were irredeemable tripe IMO. Angel stayed pretty good for it's 5, but Conner was horrible until his two brief appearances this season. Even then the finale appearance was just a little too convenient timing wise.

They should have killed Eve!

My problem with Wes' death is that I'm not sure why Angel believe Wes could kill the warlock. I doubt he'd do it with the intention of provoking Illyria into doing it, since she'd be happy enough to smash him anyway. If Wes had gone in with explosives, maybe I could see it.


----------



## Vocenoctum (May 22, 2004)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> Oh, yeah. That's right. Wasn't St. Elsewhere a spinoff of HSB, though? Or am I getting that wrong, too?




Somewhere is a website linking St Elsewhere to quite a few shows. The premise being if SE was really just a dream, than it disproves all the others shows as well.


----------



## Pielorinho (May 22, 2004)

ALthough this was a great finale, I have one fuzzy childhood memory that compares.

After years of struggling to make their little frontier town a success, the pioneers see a rich guy drive up in a black chariot.   He sneers and pulls out his government deeds, showing that he bought up all the land that their town is on.  "You belong to me now!" he cackles.  "And I'm kickin' you out!  I'm a-gonna sell your town to the rubes back east, cuz I got me a ready-made town that's a-gonna be empty as soon as you-uns clear out!"

The pioneers inspect the deeds.  They're all legal.  They're going to have to leave this town that they built with their sweat and blood.

So they dynamite the unholy crap out of the place before trundling off in a covered wagon caravan, and the evil rich guy looks on in dismay.

And thus ended _Little House on the Prairie_ in a surreal, inappropriate, and totally awesome fashion.

Daniel


----------



## Merlion (May 22, 2004)

Well, I'm not a great one for inconclusive endings, but this was pretty good.
Having each of them have their mark, and then the survivors regroup was a nice  effect.
  Really, my favorite thing about the whole last half of the season is Ilyria. And Wesley's death furthered that very nicely...she finally admits that yes she does have feelings.
  And its interesting to note she was the only one of them who took out two memebers of the Black Thorn, and did so pretty much without sustaining a scratch.
  Honestly, I would have liked it better in some ways if the end had involved her temporarily regaining most or all of her old power and kicking some major butt...but I understand that this went with the season's theme better.
  And the dragon, and that walking mountain-sized sillhoute in the back were pretty nifty.
  I tend to agree that one way or another, they'd find a way to survive. I dont really see how much of anything could actually kill Ilyria even in her double-reduced state. Beside which, something would most likely happen. Buffy shows up with a troop of slayers and Willow or something similiar.

I'm just annoyed it ended. The 4th season and the early part of the 5th had some so-so parts but with the whole Ilyria storyline the writting had become truly amazing.

If I had my way, Ilyria'd get her own show, or at least be in any new Buffy spinoff to take place
I mean she's really a first. First, the show actually goes into the existence of Lovecraftian elder gods/demons, something you rarely see on TV.
Then, it has one of them on the show...and more than that, the ancient demon thing becomes a real character. Not just a villian, or a curiosity. And thats actually a double first. I have never before seen them take either an ancient Lovecrafty god-thing and make he/she/it into a real character...and rarely do you see a TV show have any character that is either extremely powerful, or extremely alien in mindset, become a real living character.
  Its sad really because I think maybe she and Wesley could have had something in the end if he had lived.
  I hope that Lorne doesnt go off and become an addict or some such...although certainly its true that being around Wolfram and Hart must have been hard for him.

Speaking of which, I would really liked to have learned more about the Wolf, Ram, and Hart. Are they like THE supreme evil of everything and everywhere, or just that one world? We know that they were little more than ants in Ilyria's heyday. We know they have influence in Pylea.

The episode was great, but I'm very annoyed it ended. And I'll feel better if there is another Buffy show, and we learn what actually happens to everyone.


----------



## Taelorn76 (May 22, 2004)

Merlion said:
			
		

> And its interesting to note she was the only one of them who took out two memebers of the Black Thorn, and did so pretty much without sustaining a scratch.



IIRC she took out more than just two. Wasn't there other members of the circle in the car with Satan, or were they just lackies?



			
				Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> My problem with Wes' death is that I'm not sure why Angel believe Wes could kill the warlock. I doubt he'd do it with the intention of provoking Illyria into doing it, since she'd be happy enough to smash him anyway. If Wes had gone in with explosives, maybe I could see it.




I believe Wes's was sent to the warlock to betray Angel, buy some time and keep him out of the fight for a while so he could not go help the other members of the circle


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## Mouseferatu (May 22, 2004)

> IIRC she took out more than just two. Wasn't there other members of the circle in the car with Satan, or were they just lackies?




Lackies.

That does, however, bring up a question I meant to ask. Every member of the Circle seems to be someone we've seen before in this season, but I can't for the life of me recall ever seeing the Satan-looking devil in any previous episodes. Can someone jog the memory? Or was he the only member who was new to the plotline?


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## Tarrasque Wrangler (May 22, 2004)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> Lackies.
> 
> That does, however, bring up a question I meant to ask. Every member of the Circle seems to be someone we've seen before in this season, but I can't for the life of me recall ever seeing the Satan-looking devil in any previous episodes. Can someone jog the memory? Or was he the only member who was new to the plotline?



 Actually they were all Black Thorn members; you'll recall Angel told Illyria that "(Devil Guy's name)" and three other members of the Black Thorns eat out together every night."

 And Devil Guy has been shown as Angel's racquetball partner several times. They've never shown him as a villain, but in the penultimate episode it would appear that he was Angel's contact with the Black Thorns during his initiation process.

 This brings up a question I had during the episode: Who were the guys Lindsay and Lorne were sent to kill?  I don't remember them.


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## Taelorn76 (May 22, 2004)

so Illyria actually took out 5 members of the Black Thorn, the 4 in the car and the Warlock.    I think odds just increased that she survived that last battle.


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## Kobold Avenger (May 22, 2004)

They said the devil's name was Azrael...


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## Tarrasque Wrangler (May 22, 2004)

Kobold Avenger said:
			
		

> They said the devil's name was Azrael...



 I heard it as something like Azuriel, but it could have been Azrael.


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## AuroraGyps (May 23, 2004)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> That does, however, bring up a question I meant to ask. Every member of the Circle seems to be someone we've seen before in this season, but I can't for the life of me recall ever seeing the Satan-looking devil in any previous episodes. Can someone jog the memory? Or was he the only member who was new to the plotline?




I think I remember him walking around in the background at Wolfram & Hart a few times during the season.


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## Vocenoctum (May 23, 2004)

Merlion said:
			
		

> I mean she's really a first. First, the show actually goes into the existence of Lovecraftian elder gods/demons, something you rarely see on TV.
> Then, it has one of them on the show...and more than that, the ancient demon thing becomes a real character. Not just a villian, or a curiosity. And thats actually a double first. I have never before seen them take either an ancient Lovecrafty god-thing and make he/she/it into a real character...and rarely do you see a TV show have any character that is either extremely powerful, or extremely alien in mindset, become a real living character.



Demon from White Wolf pretty much captured the character Illyria. In it, Demon's (the fallen angels) are burning with hatred imprisoned within the Abyss, and a crack appears. The one's that manage to get out are forced to take over near-death humans (dying, coma, whatever) in order to resist being pulled back to the Abyss.
The PC's in the game are Demon's that come to inhabit a loving caring person. The personality is all Demon, but tempered by the feelings of the host, including sharing the feelings the Host had. The Demon knows the feelings aren't it's, but doesn't have much control over it.
Very interesting game.


> Speaking of which, I would really liked to have learned more about the Wolf, Ram, and Hart. Are they like THE supreme evil of everything and everywhere, or just that one world? We know that they were little more than ants in Ilyria's heyday. We know they have influence in Pylea.



Angel mentioned that the Oldies had been beat before, they used to rule the world and then they.. didn't. No real details that I recall. I tend to think something wiped them out, and only a few of the really minor types remained (like an ice age wiping out all the dinosaurs but leaving little squirrels to survive... or something. 
Either that, or they're Earthbound from Demon.


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## Cthulhudrew (May 23, 2004)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> My problem with Wes' death is that I'm not sure why Angel believe Wes could kill the warlock. I doubt he'd do it with the intention of provoking Illyria into doing it, since she'd be happy enough to smash him anyway. If Wes had gone in with explosives, maybe I could see it.




Angel points out that the warlock already believed Wes was going to betray Angel, and so under the premise that he *was* going to betray Angel he was able to arrange a meeting with the warlock. That's the only way he had an in, presumably. And since there's no way the guy would have allowed him to bring any weapons to the meeting, they only had one way to attempt to kill him- magic. No one but Wes could have done it (except maybe Angel). The guy wouldn't have met with Spike, or Gunn, or Lorne, or Lindsey. And, except for Spike, none of those other guys would have stood a chance against the warlock anyway. Only Angel and Wes could possibly have arranged a meeting and had any sort of chance to take him out, and Angel was already planning on a showdown with Hamilton (another opponent that couldn't have been handled by any of the 'average' joes.)

Now, I suppose Illyria *might* have been able to break into the warlock's house and get past his wards and such and kill him (she certainly doesn't seem to have any problems at the end- though maybe he was distracted), but a) Angel didn't trust her enough, I don't think, and b) she was already taking out (as someone else pointed out) 4 members of the Circle all by her lonesome- something Wes probably couldn't have done alone.

So Wes was really the only choice. And, as he repeatedly stated, Angel didn't expect anyone to survive the night, but Wes was their best chance against the warlock.


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## Cthulhudrew (May 23, 2004)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Angel mentioned that the Oldies had been beat before, they used to rule the world and then they.. didn't. No real details that I recall. I tend to think something wiped them out, and only a few of the really minor types remained (like an ice age wiping out all the dinosaurs but leaving little squirrels to survive... or something.
> Either that, or they're Earthbound from Demon.




The ancient demons have been brought up before, in Buffy originally (I want to say during season 3, with the Mayor's ascension and all- but I think they were mentioned more than once). They're not something that Angel made up from whole cloth, but I agree that it was kind of cool to see something more done with them than had previously been done, and that they seemed to be more Lovecraftian than I recall them having been previously described.


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## Merlion (May 23, 2004)

Very much so. There seem to be several phases or groupings. In the very early days of Buffy Giles said that powerful demons once ruled the earth. And then in season 3 of buffy we discover that what we think of as demons arent "real" demons...that all the real ones were destroyed or banished way back.
  And then we have Glory who's supposedly a demon-"god" thing. And Jasmine was something similiar, also from another reality.
  But when the Mayor became a "full" demon, he was basically just a really big snake...nothing to write home about. Jasmine and Glory were both obviously far more powerful beings.
  But then with Illyria and her catagory of "Old Ones"....they seem to be something else all together...from the way she talked they existed in a primordiam where reality hadnt even "cooled down" yet so to speak. Basically, much more Lovecrafty. Especially the picture of the statue of Illyria in her natural form.

Of course that again also brings about those interesting questions about the Wolf, the Ram, and the Hart who in Illyria's day were little more than ants, but now seem to be the supreme evils of the buffyverse (with one would think the exception of the First).


But the really new thing about Illyria is having a being like that, and having them really and truly be a true character.


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## DanMcS (May 23, 2004)

AuroraGyps said:
			
		

> I think I remember him walking around in the background at Wolfram & Hart a few times during the season.




He was the one Angel was playing squash (or racketball, I get my pseudosports confused) with an episode or two back.


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## Nighthawk (May 25, 2004)

Steverooo said:
			
		

> Meh!  Apparently, I'm the only one non-plussed...
> 
> I didn't expect much, expected no resolution, and maybe a cliff-hanger of an ending...  I didn't get much, didn't get much in the way of resolution, and not even much of a cliff-hanger...
> 
> ...




You are not the only one. It was an ok episode, being neither bad or good. Some cool lines. Overall, worth watching, but only notable for being the series finale.


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## Wolf72 (May 25, 2004)

BrooklynKnight said:
			
		

> I'm telling you, that guy is Smith!




FINALLY!!!

just got to finish watching it ... (wolf passed his VCR Skill check)

... now to read ya'll's comments.

I liked it, ... and I think the Wolf (Me!), the Ram, and the Hart got hurt a lot more than they would like to admit.

... is it just me or does anyone get images of wolves, Rams, and elk/deer in their head when they think of the law firm?


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## AuroraGyps (May 25, 2004)

DanMcS said:
			
		

> He was the one Angel was playing squash (or racketball, I get my pseudosports confused) with an episode or two back.




Yeah, but I mean I think I remember the the guy walking around the lobby of Wolfram & Hart during a few episodes of the season... maybe all the way back to the begining of the season.  I also think he light ahve been at the Halloween party.


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## Cor Azer (May 25, 2004)

AuroraGyps said:
			
		

> Yeah, but I mean I think I remember the the guy walking around the lobby of Wolfram & Hart during a few episodes of the season... maybe all the way back to the begining of the season.  I also think he light ahve been at the Halloween party.




That's quite possible. Joss tends to be really good at doing stuff like that so that even "surprise" twists have a lot of foreshadowing (if you ever listen to the commentary/featurettes on the Buffy DVDs, Dawn was alluded to as early as Season 3, similarly, Blue Sun logos were in the background in many Firefly scenes even though Joss hadn't completely decided what to do with this mega-corp, but he wanted them there so that when he did have this monopolistic corp appear, people could go "Hey, they've been there all along").


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## RobNJ (May 25, 2004)

I liked Angel better than Buffy The Vampire Slayer.  I was never much a fan of the lead of either show--I have always loved the backup characters.

Anyway, I really enjoyed this finale.  Wes's last scene had me crying, and when he got hit I said, "No, not him!"

So the finale was great.  However, I'd read in Entertainment Weekly (from Joss's own mouth) how it wasn't going to be a cliffhanger, and seeing what I deem to be a cliffhanger ending, I was really disappointed.  It magnified my sadness that much further.  I'm getting over it now, but I wish I hadn't been told that it wouldn't be a cliffhanger.  I might have endured it better.  Maybe not, though.  I really want to know what happened to them.  It's not the same as "the fight goes on", it's, "there's this fight that it looks like they have no way to win and they're all going to die--what the hell?"

I like the comments about Angel giving up Xanshu because it's the right thing to do, and not for a reward.  As an athiest, it really appeals to my personal sense of morality.


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## Rackhir (May 25, 2004)

You know I was really impressed with Amy Ackerman's acting in some of the last few episodes. In particular the scenes where Ilyria went from "playing" Fred, back to her normal self. I thought she handled the change in attitude and personality phenomenally well, since the two characters have such very different personalities. She could do it like she was putting on/taking off a glove.


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## RangerWickett (May 25, 2004)

RobNJ said:
			
		

> However, I'd read in Entertainment Weekly (from Joss's own mouth) how it wasn't going to be a cliffhanger, and seeing what I deem to be a cliffhanger ending, I was really disappointed.




It wasn't a cliffhanger.  They all die.  That's a great ending, considering their demeanor as they face that last fight.  There's no way they could win, but they're still all smiles, because they've found the right path, and they'll follow it to its end.


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## Asmo (May 25, 2004)

Wow.. that was pretty awesome.. one of my favourite shows ending in a TPK   

Asmo


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## Green Knight (May 25, 2004)

> Lorne killed Lindsey because Lindsey was a bad guy. He's been a bad guy (with brief twinges of goodness) since episode 1. Now, whether Lorne killed Lindsey on Angel's orders or did it himself is debatable (and deliciously so), but make no mistake. It was done so that he wouldn't just pick up where W&H's "Inner Circle" failed.




Yeah, I figured Angel wanted Lindsey dead so that he WOULDN'T be there to pick up the pieces. The Senior Partners are going to have to create a new Circle of the Black Thorn, eventually. Lindsey would've been an obvious choice. Which is why they killed him. 



> It wasn't a cliffhanger. They all die. That's a great ending, considering their demeanor as they face that last fight. There's no way they could win, but they're still all smiles, because they've found the right path, and they'll follow it to its end.




Kind of like a Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid ending.


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## Cthulhudrew (May 25, 2004)

Rackhir said:
			
		

> You know I was really impressed with Amy Ackerman's acting in some of the last few episodes. In particular the scenes where Ilyria went from "playing" Fred, back to her normal self. I thought she handled the change in attitude and personality phenomenally well, since the two characters have such very different personalities. She could do it like she was putting on/taking off a glove.




I agree here. I always found Fred to be really, really annoying. I kind of liked her as Illyria, though, and I thought she showed some decent acting chops in the role.

As I noted elsewhere, I actually liked Connor in his two appearances this season as well, though I didn't previously. I even kind of started to like Gunn a little bit. All the more tragic, then, that Angel is no more. 

I wasn't going to buy any of the Angel dvds before this season, but I'm definitely going to pick season 5 up. I don't know if I'll buy any of the others (season 1 maybe, though it was rather hit and miss, as were most of the seasons, actually, for me. Definitely won't get season 4, though. Ugh.)

Anyone out there who was sort of on the fence about the series that changed their mind (for better or worse) after watching the series on DVD? (I didn't really like Season 3 of Buffy until I saw them all back to back on DVD and now it's one of my favorites; the mid-season rerun ish always throws the momentum off, I find).


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## Cthulhudrew (May 26, 2004)

I'm watching Angel again right now (flipping back and forth between American Idol), and I'm more convinced than ever that Lorne initiated the Lindsey killing on his own.

In the "pre-battle" scene, when they are all making plans, Angel turns to Lorne, who responds by saying he's not much for the physical stuff, and that he's the weak link. Angel seems sort of exasperated and tells him he just needs him to back up Lindsey. At which point they all go into the whole "I can't believe you brought him in" stuff. 

It seems odd to me that Angel would try and hide the fact that he assigned Lorne to be an assassin at that point. All the cards are on the table at this point, it doesn't seem logical to me that they wouldn't just come out with it all. Not to mention that their acting doesn't seem to indicate any subtext. Especially after the commercial, when Lorne tells Angel not to come looking for him. Angel looks bewildered, hardly the reaction I think he'd have if he knew Lorne was going to kill Lindsey.

Now, I know that the actors may not be playing all the beats exactly spot on(especially if the episode was shot out of sequence like they usually do), and I know that maybe there were things said "between" scenes, but I think- am convinced- that Lorne initiated the killing because he couldn't stand to make compromises any more, and wasn't willing to let Lindsey live.


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## Cthulhudrew (May 26, 2004)

You know what, I'm not convinced anymore. 

Just watched the rest of the episode, and the subtext where Lorne tells Lindsey "This was Angel's plan" and "One last job" seem pretty clearly to indicate that it was instigated by Angel... 

Grr. Anyway, It's still ambiguous enough that I can enjoy the idea that maybe, just maybe, Lorne did it on his own.


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## DanMcS (May 26, 2004)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> You know what, I'm not convinced anymore.
> 
> Just watched the rest of the episode, and the subtext where Lorne tells Lindsey "This was Angel's plan" and "One last job" seem pretty clearly to indicate that it was instigated by Angel...
> 
> Grr. Anyway, It's still ambiguous enough that I can enjoy the idea that maybe, just maybe, Lorne did it on his own.




And, to mess with your head further, Lorne has read lindsey a couple of times, so he knew Lindsey expected to die by Angel's hand, and could have just been telling him what he wanted to hear.

I don't really buy that though.  When there were secrets and tricks in the past, they were layed out with the explanation that they would be explained someday.  There are no more somedays; everything got laid out in this episode.  Lorne whacked him at the behest of Angel.


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## Vocenoctum (May 26, 2004)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> You know what, I'm not convinced anymore.
> 
> Just watched the rest of the episode, and the subtext where Lorne tells Lindsey "This was Angel's plan" and "One last job" seem pretty clearly to indicate that it was instigated by Angel...
> 
> Grr. Anyway, It's still ambiguous enough that I can enjoy the idea that maybe, just maybe, Lorne did it on his own.




I don't really think it's ambigious.
Lorne was assigned to go with Lindsey, the camera leaves.
when we return to Angel & Co, they're leaving, that's when Lorne says he will fade away. IMO, it was simply a stunt to preserve the surprise of Lindsey's death. During the "offcamera" stuff is when Angel details Lindsey's death.
What he says to Lindsey, and the way the whole scene goes down leaves little doubt in my mind that Lorne didn't do it of his own free will.


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## Cthulhudrew (May 26, 2004)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> What he says to Lindsey, and the way the whole scene goes down leaves little doubt in my mind that Lorne didn't do it of his own free will.




Well, he does of course do it of his free will- no one is forcing him to shoot Lindsey- but I understand your meaning. And you're probably right, as I said, having rewatched it, it's pretty clear Angel told him to do it, but I still like to think there is enough vagary that he could have chosen to do it on his own. 

And nothing anyone says will make me think otherwise.


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## Merlion (May 28, 2004)

> It wasn't a cliffhanger. They all die




I dont really think so. I really doubt Ilyria dies. I kind of doubt she really and truly can die. And Angel and Spike have both proven themselves quite resilient.

I think the show got cancelled and Joss didnt have time to completely wrap everything up in a way that would have allowed for an unambigious ending. Its definitly a cliffhanger, because we dont know what happens after the last seen. Buffy and a bunch of Slayers, and/or Willow could appear. The Powers That Be (despite the fact that they seemingly ceased to exist after like the 3rd season) could intervene. Theres just no telling.


Of course, I really would have liked to have seen Ilyria regain her full power and whup the lot of em.


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## NeoSamurai (May 28, 2004)

On Lorne and Lindsay...

It is actually possible that Angel didn't give Lorne orders.  Think about it, Lorne is very empathic (even if he doesn't have powers) he can still read people and he's already grown disgusted with himself prior to shooting Lindsay.  Additionally, Angel is very astute and has displayed some very fine manipulative abilities to get people to do things without actually telling them to do so because he forced them into those situations. 

I think its entirely possible (just not AS probable as other theories) that Angel expected Lorne to do something to Lindsay and that is why he put the two together.  It would also explain why Lorne did not want to hang with Angel anymore specifically because he was tired of being manipulated and knew Angel expected him to take Lindsay down.  

Essentially, Angel put Lorne and Lindsay together as a team because he knew Lorne.  Lorne resented Angel for doing that because he knew Angel.  Lorne did what he did because it was the thing that needed to be done, but resented it because he was being manipulated (hence his behavior).

Just food for thought.


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## takyris (Jun 6, 2004)

Hi, just chiming in late, having finally gotten through all my Tivo clutter (pregnant wife -- we're going through some fairly crazy times...), and I have to say...

Wow.

Liked just about everything.  I will chime in and say that I didn't like Lorne killing Lindsey, because I didn't see a purpose in it.  I didn't see Lindsey as the evil one -- or at least, i wasn't convinced.  In my own pocket dimension, Lindsey had spent the years of his exile learning new tricks pretty much in order to do what Angel did... build up enough street cred to draw attention to himself, and then get into the circle of thorns -- and then destroy it.  That could be Tacky-fantasy-land, though... I just saw Lindsey as being a bit of a dark hero himself now.  But if Team Angel knew different, Team Angel knew different.

Loved all the lines people have mentioned.  Loved bringing in so many of the early people.  While I wasn't jazzed about the Circle of Thorns being revealed right at the end as the bad guys -- I'd have preferred some big lead-in with the big people we've had around all series as the final foes -- I can understand doing it the way that they did, with the time and resources that they had.  And, when I think about it, they *did* tie it in with Wolfram and Hart and Lindsey.

On a personal note, while I loved this series and thought the ending was a great "go out fighting the good fight" line, one thing that it really clued me in on is the ultimate pessimism in Whedon's shows.  I love that his hero is named "Angel", but that's the only hint of heaven we've ever seen.  Cordy's higher plane was a setup to get her killed, as was Skip.  The Powers that Be from Season One got minced.  Even Cordy's visions ended up going away, with one little blurb in the second-to-last episode.  This was about people fighting demons, and that's always an unfair fight if you don't let angels into the picture.

And I understand why that wouldn't be as interesting -- why angels are too bold and perfect to make interesting heroes, and why having God show up to kick demon booty would reduce Wes and Gunn's own heroism.  I totally understand that, and I *do* like the fundamental message of "fight the good fight, not because you think you'll win, but because you want to"... but it's also a very sad and lonely message.

I dunno.  Maybe it's just that I'm a different person from who I was 5 (or 8) years ago.

Still, that's just my own personal stuff cluttering up the airwaves.  Fundamentally, it was a rockin' finale, and I'm glad that it ended the way that it did.  It's the closest Angel could ever come to riding off into the sunset.  And I'm glad it's over -- although I'm bummed that it had to be the WB's decision, I'm glad that Whedon has 5 good years to look back on.  I like the B5 model of television -- make a good show, make it until the story you want to tell is done, and then end it.  I personally liked the last two seasons of Buffy just fine, but I'm also glad it's over.  It was a great story.  I'll want to go back and rewatch it someday, just like I want to reread some of my favorite books.  But I'm glad that they ended when they did, too.  One of the most important parts of writing is knowing when to end it.


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## SynapsisSynopsis (Jun 6, 2004)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> It wasn't a cliffhanger.  They all die.  That's a great ending, considering their demeanor as they face that last fight.  There's no way they could win, but they're still all smiles, because they've found the right path, and they'll follow it to its end.




No doubt there are a few deaths, and several people have mentioned Illyria being strong enough to survive, but don't forget that Angel still had the power of the Senior Partners coursing through his veins.  It gave him the strength to take Hamilton apart, and we already saw how powerful _he _ was.  What's the timestamp on that?  Who knows.  It could even be permanent.  If it wasn't, though, the alley still wasn't far enough into the future for the blood's effect to have worn off.  Angel was about to hand out a ridiculous amount of asswhooping, courtesy of the Senior Partners, and he definitely got him a dragon.


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