# Foundation Series (Apple+)



## Marc_C (Sep 26, 2021)

Watched the first two episodes of *Foundation* last night on Apple+. Big budget, great actors and beautiful set design. Sci-fi for adults. The first half of episode one is slow because info-dump sci-fi concepts necessary to understand what Foundation is about. Things start moving after that. Liked what they did so far. Can't wait for next week. 8 episodes season 1.

The triple persona emperor concept really scares me. (and I'm not easily scared).


----------



## Waller (Sep 26, 2021)

Fo*u*ndation. 

Fondation sounds like some kind of dessert.


----------



## Morrus (Sep 26, 2021)

Can’t wait to watch this! Need to set a couple of hours aside ASAP!

(also folks as an aside — let’s let people talk about Foundation here, rather than the inevitable “I’m not signing up to Apple!” posts. If you want to talk about that, please start a new thread. Thanks.)


----------



## Marc_C (Sep 26, 2021)

Corrosive said:


> Fo*u*ndation.
> 
> Fondation sounds like some kind of dessert.



Good catch. But in French it is Fondation. ;-)


----------



## Umbran (Sep 26, 2021)

The reviews I have seen are... not good.  Which is unsurprising, given the subject material.  The books were not written for the screen - the entire first book is five novellas that don't share any characters, and cover 150 years of time.  To quote one reviewer - the problem is that the original work is more about _The Foundation_ than it is about any of the characters.

So, I hope it is better than it sounds.


----------



## J.Quondam (Sep 26, 2021)

From the handful of reviews I've seen, they seem to fall into two categories. The first is "It's awful, because it's not like the books!" The second is "It's good, because it's not like the books!"
So that's left me with the impression that it's could be a good show when considered to be it's own Foundation-esque series, heavily _inspired_ by the books? That would be fine with me, given how unsuitable the originals really are for the screen. I'm definitely interested in hearing more people's impressions.

But in any event, I hope it's successful, and that I have a chance to watch it sometime!


----------



## dragoner (Sep 27, 2021)

Mostly I have heard it is good, very Traveller-esque.


----------



## tomBitonti (Sep 27, 2021)

l found the first two episodes to be good.  High production values.  Good performances.  The beginnings of a very large tale.  I suspect a shift in the third episode … so the values might not be maintained.  And we will have to see if the larger story fulfills the initial promise.
TomB


----------



## Dioltach (Sep 27, 2021)

Caught the first episode yesterday, and I enjoyed it. Some slow pacing, lots of dialogue, but well written, well acted and well produced.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Sep 27, 2021)

dragoner said:


> Mostly I have heard it is good, very Traveller-esque.



Foundation was in the Traveller "Appendix N".


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Sep 27, 2021)

Umbran said:


> the problem is that the original work is more about _The Foundation_ than it is about any of the characters.



I would say that was a challenge, not a problem.


----------



## Umbran (Sep 27, 2021)

Paul Farquhar said:


> I would say that was a challenge, not a problem.




Changing the language doesn't change the fact of the matter - it does, however, tend to lead to worrying more about whether you _can_ do a thing than if you _should_ to that thing.


----------



## Morrus (Sep 27, 2021)

Umbran said:


> Changing the language doesn't change the fact of the matter - it does, however, tend to lead to worrying more about whether you _can_ do a thing than if you _should_ to that thing.



Guess we'll find out when we see it! I hope to get chance to watch the first episode tonight.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Sep 27, 2021)

Umbran said:


> Changing the language doesn't change the fact of the matter - it does, however, tend to lead to worrying more about whether you _can_ do a thing than if you _should_ to that thing.



"Can you do it" is a more interesting question. You can certainly write a book about ideas rather than characters. You can do it in computer games too. Can you do it in TV or film? If not, why not?


----------



## Umbran (Sep 27, 2021)

Paul Farquhar said:


> "Can you do it" is a more interesting question.




If you are a student of film and TV, it is interesting.

If you are a fan of Asimov's work, maybe not so much, as your attempt to answer the technical question may yield a monstrosity, like it did for Frankenstein.


----------



## Zaukrie (Sep 27, 2021)

Beautiful production values. Good to great writing and acting. But it is a thinker, so we'll see if the masses like it. I've read the books twice, and unlike many, I don't think things based on a book need to be like the book at all.....and often should not, frankly. The most obvious difference is that women get to actually do something......


----------



## Mallus (Sep 27, 2021)

It's... interesting. The acting, effects and art design is what you'd expect given the moon-sized sphere full of money Apple threw into the production. Some of the choices made seem really smart (like the clone Emperors), other less so.

For example. The first episode had amazing scenes. But I didn't like the way they were ordered. It would be stronger to open with with Gaal leaving her homeworld and arriving on Trantor (I'd also pare the dialogue down to almost none). Don't begin by suggesting this is a Abrams-esque mystery box show.

The second episode has this spectacular public execution sequence which avoided feeling gratuitous. But in ends with a twist that certainly felt so (even though the reasoning behind it might not so bad).

Right now it feels as much Dune as Foundation (with more than a dash of GoT). I'm okay with that.


----------



## Zaukrie (Sep 27, 2021)

Spoiler: spoiler questions



Were there robots in the books? I don't recall. Also, IIRC, the clones are a new idea, which is really, really, well written?


----------



## Morrus (Sep 27, 2021)

First episode watched!

Wow. I loved it. It's slow and cerebral, and utterly gorgeous.

My wife, on the other hand, didn't like it and says it's "up its own arse".

I did read the books years ago but don't remember them, so I can't compare them to the show.



Spoiler



Space elevator falling! Wraps itself round the whole planet and kills hundreds of millions.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Sep 27, 2021)

It looks amazing and has some great actors, so I am pretty happy so far. 
I don't want or need an exact retelling of Asimov's novels. The strengths of them is arguably the sci-fi concepts he uses, and the show is definitely doing that.


----------



## pukunui (Sep 28, 2021)

Zaukrie said:


> Spoiler: spoiler questions
> 
> 
> 
> Were there robots in the books? I don't recall. Also, IIRC, the clones are a new idea, which is really, really, well written?





Spoiler



Not in the original series from the 40s/50s. They were included in the prequels / sequels that he wrote in the 80s, when he was busily trying to tie all of his novels into one shared universe.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Sep 28, 2021)

Umbran said:


> If you are a student of film and TV, it is interesting.
> 
> If you are a fan of Asimov's work, maybe not so much, as your attempt to answer the technical question may yield a monstrosity, like it did for Frankenstein.



You imply that such a project must inevitably be bad. Why do you believe that to be the case? I don't have Apple TV, but most of the comments on _Foundation_ here seem broadly positive, including from fans of the books.


----------



## Morrus (Sep 29, 2021)

Second episode. Even better! So far I love this show.

The Emperor(s) are vindictive as hell.

In the books, IIRC, Seldon dies of old age early on and appears as a pre-recorded hologram at important junctures over the coming centuries.

I just can’t get over how gorgeous this is. When the richest company in the world makes a sci-fi TV show, I guess you get movie level visuals. Plus it’s gripping.


----------



## pukunui (Oct 1, 2021)

I'm a big fan of the original trilogy. (I really didn't like the prequels/sequels.)

The trailer and the reviews I've read have put me off watching this. It has, however, inspired me to re-read the original trilogy. Yes, it's dated, but it's still a fun read.

The sparse minimalism of the language is one of things I like about it.

I could see it working better as a stage play than a movie or TV series.

I guess I'll wait and see what you guys think of it by the time all episodes have come out.


----------



## Mallus (Oct 1, 2021)

Morrus said:


> I just can’t get over how gorgeous this is. When the richest company in the world makes a sci-fi TV show, I guess you get movie level visuals. Plus it’s gripping.



I keep thinking about the scene with the public execution (among other things). Not only is it as epic as any effects sequence on the big screen, it was so smart & powerful - especially watching it as an American, a few weeks after the 20th anniversary of 9/11 and our final exit from Afghanistan.

It replaced “Londo watching the Narn homeworld get bombed”’ as best use off effects to enhance the drama of a scene.


----------



## Zardnaar (Oct 1, 2021)

Interesting I like it so far. Never read the books but know the broad outlines.


----------



## GreyLord (Oct 4, 2021)

The Foundation series and many of his other series were tied together later in life by Asimov.  AS they are related, there are many sources they could draw upon for inspiration to the stories ranging from the Galactic Empire novels to the Robot novels and more.  

I could see a great breadth and range of ideas that could be incorporated into a Foundation series if they are also using those as sources.


----------



## Zaukrie (Oct 4, 2021)

Those that were bored before EP 3 may never come back (personally, I really like it).


----------



## Morrus (Oct 4, 2021)

Three in and still loving it. Best sci-fi show in years!


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Oct 16, 2021)

I have seen the first four episodes now, and it is really good. It's a long time since I read the books, but this series seems to just use the original stories as a foundation, and builds out from there.

Episode four did feel a bit more like a conventional space adventure though.


----------



## Dioltach (Oct 16, 2021)

Paul Farquhar said:


> It's a long time since I read the books, but this series seems to just use the original stories as a foundation, and builds out from there.



Using Foundation as a foundation for Foundation? Now that's meta!


----------



## Marc_C (Oct 17, 2021)

Episode 4 was good. Glad we got more info about some characters who were not in episode 3.


----------



## Zardnaar (Oct 18, 2021)

Bit slow perhaps but overall enjoying it for the most part.


----------



## Mercurius (Oct 20, 2021)

I'm overall enjoying it (through episode 4, about to start 5). As others have mentioned, it is visually impressive, and the world-building is quite good for tv, with lots of great ideas. The acting is solid.

The negative: While I don't mind the big scope and time separation, it does lead to a sense of dissociation...more like a series of short stories than a novel. Spoilers are ok, right? 



Spoiler: Just in case.



Some of the intended narrative intensity just wasn't that intense (e.g. the romance between Gaal and whats-his-name). And of course, Harry dies and Gaal "disappears" from the show at the end of episode 2, and only just barely reappears at the end of ep 4.


  And also, it sometimes feels a bit like a Syfy show with a much higher budget rather than GoT in space.

But overall, it is good and worthwhile TV. just not GoT good, or probably even Battlestar Galactica good.


----------



## Mercurius (Oct 20, 2021)

Spoiler: Minor spoiler for beginning of episode 5



OK, Gaal is back. I don't love her character, but as the first protag, she does bring a sense of continuity. It was just too jarring--through ep 4--for her to missing from half the show.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Oct 20, 2021)

Mercurius said:


> more like a series of short stories than a novel.



The original novel _is_ a collection of short stories.


----------



## Mercurius (Oct 20, 2021)

Paul Farquhar said:


> The original novel _is_ a collection of short stories.



I realize that. But as far as a viewing experience, it feels a bit disjointed.


----------



## Marc_C (Oct 20, 2021)

Mercurius said:


> I realize that. But as far as a viewing experience, it feels a bit disjointed.



It's called a non-linear narrative. Only time will tell if they pulled it off or not. But so far looks like they did.


----------



## Mercurius (Oct 20, 2021)

Marc_C said:


> It's called a non-linear narrative. Only time will tell if they pulled it off or not. But so far looks like they did.



I realize it is a non-linear narrative - no need to be condescending. I am just sharing my own, subjective, impressions, which is that the story feels a bit disjointed (to me). Non-linear narratives aren't inherently good or bad, but they do tend to be prone to fraying a bit, or seeming disjointed, especially when they are complex stories like Foundation.

But again, my overall impression is mostly positive, just with some caveats.


----------



## Zaukrie (Oct 20, 2021)

Serious mansplaining in this thread.......


----------



## Mallus (Oct 20, 2021)

Zaukrie said:


> Serious mansplaining in this thread.......



Nerdsplaining. Wait, I'm doing it now too, aren't I? Damnit.

Also, how do we feel about dropping the spoiler blocks for this thread? I'd like to. They get in the way of my now old man brain formulating commentary on shows.


----------



## Marc_C (Oct 20, 2021)

The Witcher series was 'disjointed'. The flashbacks were difficult to understand (when they actually happened in the grand scheme of things) and muddled the narrative. Very amateur editing.

I'm not seeing that in Fondation. Granted it's a slow reveal but all the blocks are falling into place slowly. It's very coherent so far.


----------



## Zaukrie (Oct 20, 2021)

Marc_C said:


> The Witcher series was 'disjointed'. The flashbacks were difficult to understand (when they actually happened in the grand scheme of things) and muddled the narrative. Very amateur editing.
> 
> I'm not seeing that in Fondation. Granted it's a slow reveal but all the blocks are falling into place slowly. It's very coherent so far.



We were debating if that huge flashback in ep 5 should have just been the start of the show or not.....like, which was a better way to tell the story.....and I'm still not sure if it really matters or not.


----------



## Marc_C (Oct 20, 2021)

Zaukrie said:


> We were debating if that huge flashback in ep 5 should have just been the start of the show or not.....like, which was a better way to tell the story.....and I'm still not sure if it really matters or not.



It matters. I prefer things to be more mysterious. We get "linear easy watching" narratives all the time. It's good to have some change once in a while. I find its a fitting way of telling the story for Fondation.

Goddard said "A movie has a beginning, an middle and an end. But not necessarily in that order". Revolutionary for the 60s. Still applies today in my book. ;-)


----------



## Mallus (Oct 20, 2021)

Zaukrie said:


> We were debating if that huge flashback in ep 5 should have just been the start of the show or not.....like, which was a better way to tell the story.....and I'm still not sure if it really matters or not.



The best part of the flashback on Synnax for me was the seemingly throwaway line "we melted the polar caps". Thought it was a great way to take what at first seemed like a very Asimovian "descent into unscientific barbarism" and turn it into contemporary climate sci-fi.

I feel that same way about the Anacreon invasion of Terminus. In the original they're just expansionist rubes who forgot how to use nuclear power. In the series the invasion is a direct consequence of the kind of terrible political decisions a declining empire makes.


----------



## Mercurius (Oct 20, 2021)

I don't think the flashbacks are what makes it feel a bit disjointed (to me). It is more the big jumps in time. Again, that's ok in principle, but by episode 4 I kind of felt like I was reading a sequel book. Again, I understand the nature of the source material, but it still felt a bit off. To me. IMO. IME. As of right now. 

I still like the series. And more than Witcher, which I thought was just OK.


----------



## MarkB (Oct 21, 2021)

I do like the little tricks of cloning, and cryogenics, and possibly time dilation that are being used to maintain some continuity of characters. But still, the sheer distances make their stories feel disconnected from each other, and yet they haven't quite managed to illustrate the sheer scale of the galactic empire that makes it top-heavy to the point of collapse.

Like, everyone seems to know what and where Synnax, and Anacreon, and Thespis are. This is an empire of tens of thousands of star systems, more than anyone could keep track of - a couple of minor worlds from the outer reaches, or one planet whose handful of population don't even believe in science or technology, should be so utterly obscure that almost anyone at the heart of the empire would have no clue what they were without looking it up in some massive database.


----------



## Mallus (Oct 21, 2021)

MarkB said:


> I do like the little tricks of cloning, and cryogenics, and possibly time dilation that are being used to maintain some continuity of characters. But still, the sheer distances make their stories feel disconnected from each other, and yet they haven't quite managed to illustrate the sheer scale of the galactic empire that makes it top-heavy to the point of collapse.
> 
> Like, everyone seems to know what and where Synnax, and Anacreon, and Thespis are. This is an empire of tens of thousands of star systems, more than anyone could keep track of - a couple of minor worlds from the outer reaches, or one planet whose handful of population don't even believe in science or technology, should be so utterly obscure that almost anyone at the heart of the empire would have no clue what they were without looking it up in some massive database.



I actually think the series is doing a bit better in this regard than the first book. The show is at least attempting to illustrate the diversity of cultures, languages, counting systems, etc. in the Empire.

But the central issue of scale is unsolvable. It's central to the, ahem, foundational text. It's not like the size of the Empire made more sense in the original Asimov. You kinda have to roll with it.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Oct 23, 2021)

MarkB said:


> Like, everyone seems to know what and where Synnax, and Anacreon, and Thespis are.



We see the Emperor receiving briefings and memorising information as planets become relevant. Anacreon and Thespis are near-neighbours of the Foundation on Terminus.


----------



## Mercurius (Oct 27, 2021)

I just finished episode 6 and am finding that I want to like the series more than I actually do. First of all, I find the acting and dialogue uneven, and just don't care all that much about any of the characters. Salvor Harden is so central, but one of the worst actors in the show (imo). 

It is still entertaining: fun to look at, a nice use of color, and enough intriguing elements to keep watching. But at this point it feels more like a big budget SyFy channel show than it does the SF version of GoT, or commensurate with other "premier" TV series in the post-Sopranos era.


----------



## Zardnaar (Oct 27, 2021)

Mercurius said:


> I just finished episode 6 and am finding that I want to like the series more than I actually do. First of all, I find the acting and dialogue uneven, and just don't care all that much about any of the characters. Salvor Harden is so central, but one of the worst actors in the show (imo).
> 
> It is still entertaining: fun to look at, a nice use of color, and enough intriguing elements to keep watching. But at this point it feels more like a big budget SyFy channel show than it does the SF version of GoT, or commensurate with other "premier" TV series in the post-Sopranos era.




 Good way of phrasing it. It's ok/good in parts but it's not great. People don't seem to be dumping all over it it's just ok.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Oct 27, 2021)

Yes, my wife, who isn't a SF person (crime drama is her thing) commented that she found "Math Girl's" story interesting, but was bored by "Action Girl".


----------



## Zardnaar (Oct 27, 2021)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Yes, my wife, who isn't a SF person (crime drama is her thing) commented that she found "Math Girl's" story interesting, but was bored by "Action Girl".




 I'm finding the most interesting character is the robot lady helping Empire.

 I'm guessing in the books the events happening were the main thing?


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Oct 27, 2021)

Zardnaar said:


> I'm finding the most interesting character is the robot lady helping Empire.



Or "helping" Empire...


----------



## Zardnaar (Oct 27, 2021)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Or "helping" Empire...




 Yeap they destroyed her people iirc.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Oct 27, 2021)

Zardnaar said:


> I'm guessing in the books the events happening were the main thing?



It is a long time since I read it, but as I remember it we are pretty much on the second of five or six short stories in the first book.

If we follow the book's arc, the series should end with Foundation starting to take over the Barbarian Worlds and carve out it's own mini-empire.


----------



## Zardnaar (Oct 27, 2021)

Paul Farquhar said:


> It is a long time since I read it, but as I remember it we are pretty much on the second of five or six short stories in the first book.
> 
> If we follow the book's arc, the series should end with Foundation starting to take over the Barbarian Worlds and carve out it's own mini-empire.




 There's a big lack of interesting characters I find. No one's aggravating at least. 

 Politics on Trantor are reasonably interesting. I suspect the robot lady will betray Empire and the young "nice" clone is gonna get a sticky ending.

 Still it's good enough to watch each week. It's not like there's much else on atm Sci Fi related though. 

 Hell watching White Collar on Disney+ atm.


----------



## John R Davis (Oct 27, 2021)

Seen the first two episodes, and found it gorgeous in scope and not too hard to follow. I haven't read the books.
What has spoiled it was seeing a trailer for it in the cinema this week. On the big screen it looked absolutely amazing ( and though I have a big screen 4k TV, it now looks somewhat diminished!!)


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Oct 27, 2021)

Zardnaar said:


> There's a big lack of interesting characters I find.



Fault of the book, which didn't really bother with such trivialities as "characterisation". To the extent that gender-swapping characters makes no difference whatsoever.

I find it's common in serious science fiction of that period - Arthur C. Clarke didn't really do interesting characters either (Hal is the most interesting character he ever came up with).

Have been watching Home Before Dark on Apple+ - which is Stranger Things with the supernatural element removed, and Only Murders in the Building on Disney+


----------



## Zardnaar (Oct 27, 2021)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Fault of the book, which didn't really bother with such trivialities as "characterisation". To the extent that gender-swapping characters makes no difference whatsoever.
> 
> I find it's common in serious science fiction of that period - Arthur C. Clarke didn't really do interesting characters either.
> 
> Have been watching Home Before Dark on Apple+ - which is Stranger Things with the supernatural element removed, and Only Murders in the Building on Disney+




 Yeah I don't really enjoy reading Sci Fi because a lot of it is bleah. 

 I realized that the show runners would have to develop the characters.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Oct 27, 2021)

Zardnaar said:


> Yeah I don't really enjoy reading Sci Fi because a lot of it is bleah.



I tend not to read "serious" SF now. I went through that phase 35 years ago.


----------



## Zardnaar (Oct 27, 2021)

Paul Farquhar said:


> I tend not to read "serious" SF now. I went through that phase 35 years ago.




Never hit that phase I suppose. I've read some eg Dune but no Aasimov, Niven, Arthur C Clarke.

 Prefer reading fantasy vs watching it and other way around with Sci Fi.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Oct 28, 2021)

John R Davis said:


> On the big screen it looked absolutely amazing



Apart from the stuff on Terminus, which looks like it was shot in Doctor Who's gravel pit.


----------



## Zardnaar (Oct 28, 2021)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Apart from the stuff on Terminus, which looks like it was shot in Doctor Who's gravel pit.




 Yeah it's not that exciting.


----------



## practicalm (Oct 28, 2021)

I haven't seen episode 6, but episode 5 was a big meh from me. 
Nothing new was conveyed. Seemed like a lot of filler.
Even Gaal's backstory didn't really give us new things to work with.


----------



## Zaukrie (Oct 28, 2021)

Pretty disappointed Ep 6 gave us NOTHING from Gaal. 

Also, if I'm the bad guys, I just break Salvor Hardin's legs or whatnot. You can make her not a real danger, and keep her alive there at the end.....


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Oct 29, 2021)

Zaukrie said:


> Also, if I'm the bad guys, I just break Salvor Hardin's legs or whatnot. You can make her not a real danger, and keep her alive there at the end.....



Nah, wouldn't work.


----------



## Zardnaar (Oct 29, 2021)

Kinda liked this week's episode.


----------



## Zaukrie (Oct 29, 2021)

Zardnaar said:


> Kinda liked this week's episode.



Truth.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Oct 30, 2021)

Dungeon crawl _ in space!_


----------



## Marc_C (Nov 2, 2021)

A slow burn series. Curious to see how the Emperor fares with the three Goddesses.


----------



## pukunui (Nov 4, 2021)

I think if I were to make a series based on Foundation, I'd go for a two-parter that focuses on the second half of the trilogy (so the Mule's story and the hunt for the Second Foundation). I'd sprinkle the first half of the story, that spans the biggest length of time, in as backstory.

Both the Mule's story and the hunt for the Second Foundation span shorter periods of time, maintain their respective casts of characters, and have a more typical narrative structure. I think they would lend themselves to film / tv better.

You could have a brief expository "history of the Foundation" bit at the beginning that covers the main points of Hari Seldon --> Terminus --> Encyclopedists --> Mayors --> Traders --> etc etc and maybe go into a bit more detail throughout the series as needed -- and/or include short vignette films / stories on a tie-in website or something.


----------



## Zardnaar (Nov 4, 2021)

Seems to me the source material isn't great for adaption. You need characters not a backdrop set over centuries.

 Basic things like who's your Babyface, who's the heel etc. 

 I like the show the best episodes have been good but it's not great.


----------



## MarkB (Nov 5, 2021)

pukunui said:


> I think if I were to make a series based on Foundation, I'd go for a two-parter that focuses on the second half of the trilogy (so the Mule's story and the hunt for the Second Foundation). I'd sprinkle the first half of the story, that spans the biggest length of time, in as backstory.



That would work better structurally, but what works well in the Mule story is the peoples' sense of shock as Seldon's scheduled Crisis message turns out to have nothing to do with the crisis they're actually facing. That doesn't work as well if you haven't already established the premise.


----------



## pukunui (Nov 5, 2021)

MarkB said:


> That would work better structurally, but what works well in the Mule story is the peoples' sense of shock as Seldon's scheduled Crisis message turns out to have nothing to do with the crisis they're actually facing. That doesn't work as well if you haven't already established the premise.



I think it would be easy enough to have an intro that establishes the 200+ year history of the Foundation and how it has relied heavily on Hari Seldon's Plan. It could touch on the encyclopedists giving way to the mayors who give way to the free traders and so on. For one thing, since the original stories were magazine serials, each of them starts with a summary of the preceding stories anyway, usually in the form of expository dialogue or something like Arkady's dictated "history of the Foundation" essay.

It would be similar to how the _Lord of the Rings _movie trilogy begins with a short intro showing how Sauron was defeated and his ring taken and then lost, and how the _Hobbit _movie trilogy begins with a short intro that shows Smaug arriving at Erebor and such.


----------



## MarkB (Nov 5, 2021)

pukunui said:


> I think it would be easy enough to have an intro that establishes the 200+ year history of the Foundation and how it has relied heavily on Hari Seldon's Plan. It could touch on the encyclopedists giving way to the mayors who give way to the free traders and so on. For one thing, since the original stories were magazine serials, each of them starts with a summary of the preceding stories anyway, usually in the form of expository dialogue or something like Arkady's dictated "history of the Foundation" essay.
> 
> It would be similar to how the _Lord of the Rings _movie trilogy begins with a short intro showing how Sauron was defeated and his ring taken and then lost, and how the _Hobbit _movie trilogy begins with a short intro that shows Smaug arriving at Erebor and such.



Sure, that works in terms of establishing events, but it's not emotionally effective if you're not already invested in the setting's established premise.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Nov 5, 2021)

I haven't seen today's episode yet, but I'm pretty sure the Second Foundation has already been mentioned on the show, way ahead of schedule.


----------



## Echohawk (Nov 5, 2021)

Paul Farquhar said:


> I haven't seen today's episode yet, but I'm pretty sure the Second Foundation has already been mentioned on the show, way ahead of schedule.



It was _implied _in a line of Seldon's dialogue from last week's episode, when he says to Gaal "you're supposed to lead the first Foundation".


----------



## Mallus (Nov 5, 2021)

Echohawk said:


> It was _implied _in a line of Seldon's dialogue from last week's episode, when he says to Gaal "you're supposed to lead the first Foundation".



It's also implied by Gaal (and Salvors) psychic abilities.


----------



## Zaukrie (Nov 5, 2021)

The episodes are definitely picking up steam. I still say that Empire is the most interesting character. Which is kind of weird given the story.


----------



## Zardnaar (Nov 5, 2021)

Zaukrie said:


> The episodes are definitely picking up steam. I still say that Empire is the most interesting character. Which is kind of weird given the story.




 The is along with the last robot whiose name I forget.


----------



## MarkB (Nov 5, 2021)

I'm starting to think that Gaal is the Mule.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Nov 5, 2021)

Zardnaar said:


> The is along with the last robot whiose name I forget.



Demerzel, I think.

The last episode had another great arc for the Empire.
Not sure what's up with Gaal and Hari, seems like they will have a long voyage ahead. 



MarkB said:


> Sure, that works in terms of establishing events, but it's not emotionally effective if you're not already invested in the setting's established premise.




It's possible they decide to derail even the first crisis, but it could also be the first crisis is still going exactly according to Psychohistory's predictions. Maybe not Hari Seldon's personal plan, but there is a distinction here. Psychohistory - in my understanding - does not predict persons and mandate them to be in particular positions, but roles that will a particular purpose or effect. Seldon might have deemed particular persons particularly suited for these roles - but psychohistory doesn't predict it to be these persons. 
The real changes he can bring along with his knowledge of psychohistory cannot hinge on these persons, but on larger groups of people - like the Foundation. But that doesn't mean he won't pick favorites.


----------



## Zardnaar (Nov 5, 2021)

Empires kinda stealing the show.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Nov 6, 2021)

MarkB said:


> I'm starting to think that Gaal is the Mule.



I think you might be dead on there. Especially since 


Spoiler



she has put herself on ice for a hundred and some years, after already buggering up Hari's plan for a Second Foundation at Stars End. The title of the episode seems to support that: Gaal and the Mule are both "missing pieces".


----------



## Zaukrie (Nov 12, 2021)

The parts about Empire are great. The rest, meh.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Nov 13, 2021)

Zaukrie said:


> The parts about Empire are great. The rest, meh.



I think it's more accurate to say the show does politics well, but action badly.


----------



## Zardnaar (Nov 13, 2021)

Paul Farquhar said:


> I think it's more accurate to say the show does politics well, but action badly.




 Yup. It's kinda two shows almost.


----------



## MarkB (Nov 13, 2021)

At this point I just don't feel like I know what the show's actually about, and that's having read the novels.

Supposedly there's this great plan based upon predictable statistical analysis that charts the way forward, but in detail the plan seems to rely upon some very unpredictable factors. In particular, the current arc hinges upon control of a warship that has been jumping randomly through the galaxy and might never have appeared anywhere near Anacreon.

To be fair, even the novel series comes to acknowledge that the concept of psychohistory is flawed and needs some modification, but the TV series seems to be treating it almost as a form of magic.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Nov 13, 2021)

Well, I expect Hari the Hologram will explain it all in the next episode. Although it might be interesting if there is a discrepancy between what the recording says just happened, and what actually happened.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Nov 13, 2021)

Prediction: In the next episode Hari pulls off his rubber mask to reveal that he was Agatha all along.


----------



## MarkB (Nov 13, 2021)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Well, I expect Hari the Hologram will explain it all in the next episode. Although it might be interesting if there is a discrepancy between what the recording says just happened, and what actually happened.



That's assuming that he's still a pre-programmed recording, as he was in the novels. He could just as easily be another Seldon AI, who's been observing all along and can change his narrative to accommodate current events.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Nov 13, 2021)

MarkB said:


> That's assuming that he's still a pre-programmed recording, as he was in the novels. He could just as easily be another Seldon AI, who's been observing all along and can change his narrative to accommodate current events.



Less funny that way though.


----------



## MarkB (Nov 20, 2021)

Well, they did manage to bring a lot of threads together in the finale, which was pretty impressive.

Still suffers from not being able to really invest in any of the characters. The ones I want to care about - Salvor and the Foundation - are still the least interesting, while the most compelling characters - the incarnations of Empire - are part of the story arc that I'm not particularly interested in.

I think I'll be quitting my Apple TV subscription at this point. Ted Lasso was fun and this has, at least, been interesting, but there's nothing else there I'd stick around for.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Nov 20, 2021)

I felt it outdid _Return of the King_ for not knowing where to stop...

I wish they had left Salvor in the past being mayor like the book, so we could have a more interesting character in series two.

I've "suspended" my Apple+ sub for the time being. Their content is really very limited.


----------



## Zaukrie (Dec 3, 2021)

Meh. I'm not sure if I'll even watch season two. And I really really really wanted to like this show.


----------



## Sepulchrave II (Dec 17, 2021)

Recently finished the series and was very underwhelmed and disappointed.

I feel that an episodic emphasis - where different characters move through the world - would have worked better, rather than trying to string out the notion of _protagonist_ - which kind of runs counter to the whole point of the Foundation, which is about psychohistory and the _longue durée_.

And _romance?_ Silly, trivial stuff.

Lee Pace is awesome as Cleon, though. His effortless majesty is something to behold. If he hadn't been in it, I probably would have dropped it after episode 3.


----------



## Zardnaar (Dec 17, 2021)

Sepulchrave II said:


> Recently finished the series and was very underwhelmed and disappointed.
> 
> I feel that an episodic emphasis - where different characters move through the world - would have worked better, rather than trying to string out the notion of _protagonist_ - which kind of runs counter to the whole point of the Foundation, which is about psychohistory and the _longue durée_.
> 
> ...




 He pretty much carried the series along with the lady robot whose name I forget.


----------

