# ways to increase BAB other other than leveling



## Izod

one of my party members is level 20 and is one point away from having 4 normal attacks.  He asked me if I knew of any way to get one more point...  because once you get to epic levels your BAB never goes up.  He sugested using a wish to change one of his wiz levels for a ranger level.  BTW he is an arcane archer by trade.  also is it posiable to get an iten that would rais your BAB by one.  this doesn't seen too powerful an item but I would like to know what you think.


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## Crothian

Items don't increase BAB, that would be to powerful.  Personally, he should have thought about this before he got to level 20.  The only way I'd allow it is through a wish.  The wish wouldn't be to switch out a level of Wizard for Ranger.  Too easy.  He'd have to wish himself down a wizard level and that would place him at 19th level.  Then he'd have to earn his way to 20th level again.  

The reason not to allow a magic item to do it is because a cleric, druid, rogue, bard, wizard, or sorcer would have a huge advantage.  All they each need is +1 BAB at level 20 to gain an additional attack.  To easily abused and not fair to everone else.


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## Archer

Easier than making a wish is letting epic levels increase your BAB so fighters get 5 attacks, clerics get 4 and wizards get 3. Epic challenges are staggeringly difficult enough that an extra attack at -5 below their worst attack is going to be all that gamebreaking.


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## Izod

> he should have thought about this before he got to level 20




Normally I would agree with you on this one but as he didn't know that BAB doesn't go up afret 20, and the fact that we have been playing these chars for almost 2 years I find it kind of hard to fault him here.



> He'd have to wish himself down a wizard level and that would place him at 19th level. Then he'd have to earn his way to 20th level again.




Again we have been playing these chars for a long time and I'm not going to punish him for not knowing what the rule of the new book is.  the worst thing I would do to him is say no you can do that.


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## Dr. Zoom

That's part of the trade-off when you multiclass.  Also, I don't have the book, but I heard that BAB for epic levels does increase, just at a slower rate.  I may be wrong.


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## DM with a vengence

The spells Divine Might and Tenser's Transformation both increase your BAB.  Perhaps he could spend a wish to find out how to create an item with one of those spells.

Gauntlet of Prowess.
This single golden gauntlet instinctively gives even the greenest farm boy some skill in fighting.  The Gauntlet adds +1 to BAB, giving all of the benefits of a higher BAB whever it is worn.  However, this item does come at some cost, while it is worn the user cannot cast spell or use spell completion items.
5,000 gp, Tenser's Transformation, Craft Wonderous Item


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## LostSoul

Why not keep track of experience gained, and when he gains enough to hit level 21 (210, 000 I think), let him switch a level into a new one.

It doesn't make sense that, at level 20, you can't ever learn anything new again.


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## Arravis

I do agree that it seems unfair that he cannot gain a single point of BAB. Would adding +1 BAB be possible through a relic or a artifact? And I wholey agree that he shouldn't be punished for not having thought out his entire 1-20 level progression AND for not knowing what was in a book that wasn't published until just yesterday. Give me a break. How meta can you be.


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## wallshot

just a note about the epic progression, U gain an epic +1 attack bonus every odd level.  they didnt raise BAB b/c after a while U could have fighters with 6 or 7 hits, and how would you like to be the party wizard waiting on the sidelines as the fighter rolls all 7 of his attacks and after he is done with great cleave attempts, there is nothing left for yor automatic quickened fireball?


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## Garmorn

Izod said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Normally I would agree with you on this one but as he didn't know that BAB doesn't go up afret 20, and the fact that we have been playing these chars for almost 2 years I find it kind of hard to fault him here.
> 
> 
> 
> Again we have been playing these chars for a long time and I'm not going to punish him for not knowing what the rule of the new book is.  the worst thing I would do to him is say no you can do that. *





This is a very good time to just house rule it and allow a one time exception.  If you have a group that has played this long and is at or near 20th level, the odds are all of them are going to have at least one thing that will be inconflict or need adjusting.  Just do it and not worry about it.  

Or give them a special quest and allow them each a single one time expection for completing the quest. Just had wave the reasoning and all will be fine.


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## Jondor_Battlehammer

I was under the impression that your BAB does continue to rise, you simply don't gain more attacks from it whenever it breaches a number divisable by five. A fighter could have a 30/25/20/15, but not gain the 10 or 5 that would have come after it at lower levels.


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## wallshot

Jondor_Battlehammer said:
			
		

> *I was under the impression that your BAB does continue to rise, you simply don't gain more attacks from it whenever it breaches a number divisable by five. A fighter could have a 30/25/20/15, but not gain the 10 or 5 that would have come after it at lower levels. *




They dont call it BAB after level 20. It becomes an epic bonus to attack. That way it doesnt conflict with the BAB extra attacks rule. 
If U read my earlier post in this thread it explains why they did it that way.


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## comrade raoul

Consider adding a house rule for epic characters -- characters determine their base attack bonus according to their "best" 20 class levels. That way, warrior-types and monks still have a monopoly on having lots of attacks, but if your cleric or rogue really wants more attacks, he can do it with some (slightly) painful multiclassing.


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## Crothian

You have to remeber BAB is one of the things used to balance the classes.  All classes that don't get the best BAB arrive at level 20 one BAB short of an extra attack.  Basically, you'll hinder the fighter types by allowing this extra attacks to be given to the other classes.  

However, as it is ultimately up to the DM and they can rule 0 as they see fit.


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## Izod

> You have to remeber BAB is one of the things used to balance the classes. All classes that don't get the best BAB arrive at level 20 one BAB short of an extra attack. Basically, you'll hinder the fighter types by allowing this extra attacks to be given to the other classes.




Well this char is an arcane archer.  they are fighter types and because of the way he leveled through the first few levels he wasn't able to get to BAB of 16.  We aren't talking about a BAB of 25 or anything


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## Xeriar

Izod said:
			
		

> *one of my party members is level 20 and is one point away from having 4 normal attacks.  He asked me if I knew of any way to get one more point...  because once you get to epic levels your BAB never goes up.  He sugested using a wish to change one of his wiz levels for a ranger level.  BTW he is an arcane archer by trade.  also is it posiable to get an iten that would rais your BAB by one.  this doesn't seen too powerful an item but I would like to know what you think. *




My personal opinion is that this is one of the most moronic design decisions WotC made.  Monsters keep gaining BAB, but PCs don't - it makes no sense.

Just cap attacks from BAB at 4, and tweak the non-fighter epics a bit.  That's all you need to do.


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## Xeriar

Crothian said:
			
		

> *You have to remeber BAB is one of the things used to balance the classes.  All classes that don't get the best BAB arrive at level 20 one BAB short of an extra attack.  Basically, you'll hinder the fighter types by allowing this extra attacks to be given to the other classes.
> 
> However, as it is ultimately up to the DM and they can rule 0 as they see fit.   *




Monk 20/Sorcerer 20

vs.

Sorcerer 20/Monk 20

Assuming identical stats, feats, skills, spells and equipment, who wins?

The player who took sorcerer first is screwed.  EAB is a rube goldberg solution to a problem that they fix the right way for monsters - just cap the attacks at 4.


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## Kai Lord

Izod said:
			
		

> *one of my party members is level 20 and is one point away from having 4 normal attacks.  He asked me if I knew of any way to get one more point...  because once you get to epic levels your BAB never goes up.  He sugested using a wish to change one of his wiz levels for a ranger level.  BTW he is an arcane archer by trade.  also is it posiable to get an iten that would rais your BAB by one.  this doesn't seen too powerful an item but I would like to know what you think. *




That's easy, just kill him.  He'll come back one level lower, and can replace it with a level of ranger.


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## Zhure

LOL, nice one.


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## doktorstick

Xeriar said:
			
		

> * Monk 20/Sorcerer 20 vs. Sorcerer 20/Monk 20
> 
> Assuming identical stats, feats, skills, spells and equipment, who wins?
> 
> The player who took sorcerer first is screwed.  EAB is a rube goldberg solution to a problem that they fix the right way for monsters - just cap the attacks at 4. *




That is a poor example.  In most cases (and that is what rules try to cover, most cases), the Mnk 20/Sor20 is going to be a better fighter and worst magic user than the Sor20/Mnk20 who will be the better magic user and worse fighter.  The reason is that character progressing as either one of the primary classes will be developed towards that class.

/ds


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## Valicor

If your playign a 2 year campaign, jsut make a one tiem excaption, it isn't goign to through  your entire multi-verse into a knot.  I'm sure you probally have more then one pC who got messed up in soem way or another, and maybe even a few npc's?

Just make an exception for the characters that where made long before epci came out.  Any new characters, can be made, with the rules under consideration. Right?


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## Jondor_Battlehammer

wallshot said:
			
		

> *
> 
> They dont call it BAB after level 20. It becomes an epic bonus to attack. That way it doesnt conflict with the BAB extra attacks rule.
> If U read my earlier post in this thread it explains why they did it that way. *





I get it now. In that case I would have to say he is SOL. If he wanted to be that good in a fight, he should have invested his first 20 levels in combatant classes. Granted, we didn't know two years ago that epic level would cap off the number of attacks you could make, but two years ago we didn't even know epic would ever exist. 

Every core class is 1 BAB away from a extra attack at 20th level. It would be as dissapointing for them as any multi-classer. If you want to let him get it, I would follow Crothian's advice, or give a one time BAB bonus to everyone at 21st level, to make things fair.


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## LordAO

I think it's stupid the way they did attack bonuses and saves in the ELH, because now everyone is worrying about having this combination of levels in that order, unfairly screwing people who make the "mistake" of getting this class at this level instead of that one. All it does is give power players another wepon in their arsenal and leads them further down the road to min/maxing obsession. In the mean time, those who actually care about their character and things like roleplaying get screwed by the rules into having a suckier character. Why should my attack bonus and all of my saves be one point lower (an yes that does matter) because im a Wiz 12/ War Wizard5/ Archmage 5 and i got the extra 2 levels of Wiz after 20th level. If i had got 12th lev wizard before lev 20 and only lev 4 in the other classes my attack and saves would all be 1 pt higher. Its the exact same combination of levels and the exact same character. Why should i be punished because of the order i got those classes?! So if somebody wants to give their characters the benefit of the doubt, I say get over it.


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## Plane Sailing

Since he can cast wish, at an exp point cost, he could cast enough wishes to cause him to lose a level (raising attributes, creating a ring of three wishes, whatever). He can then take his next level as Ranger and get that BAB he wants, and he has the benefit from casting all those wishes.


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## Jalkain

LordAO said:
			
		

> *I think it's stupid the way they did attack bonuses and saves in the ELH, because now everyone is worrying about having this combination of levels in that order, unfairly screwing people who make the "mistake" of getting this class at this level instead of that one. All it does is give power players another wepon in their arsenal and leads them further down the road to min/maxing obsession. *




Yep, even more posts with things like 'My Sorceror is getting Prestige Class x at 6th level, and Prestige Class y at 10th level, and I would like Haste, but I'm waiting for Mass Haste at 12th level, etc, etc, etc.'

And then you find out that he's still rolling the stats for his 1st level character...


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## LordAO

With all due respect, my post is arguing against that kind of number gaming! The way the ELH does things only encourages it, which is why I don't like it!


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## doktorstick

LordAO said:
			
		

> *...unfairly screwing people who make the "mistake" of getting this class at this level instead of that one. All it does is give power players another wepon in their arsenal and leads them further down the road to min/maxing obsession. In the mean time, those who actually care about their character and things like roleplaying get screwed by the rules into having a suckier character...Its the exact same combination of levels and the exact same character. Why should i be punished because of the order i got those classes?! So if somebody wants to give their characters the benefit of the doubt, I say get over it. *



 The tone of your post does not suggest that you care about the development of your character, but rather you also are trying to min/max, or rather complaining that you are forced to min/max to have a less "suckier" character.  I say get over it.  Those who "actually care...and things like roleplaying" are going to have a more "suckier" character because they didn't dump their least vital scores (like charasima).

Actually, what your post does sound like is that you min/maxed and are now upset that you didn't have enough foresight to know that BABs were not going to work the same.  And now your buddy is laughing at you because he has a slight edge.

Please correct me if I am wrong.  Email and messages come out flat and the tone often gets lost.

/ds


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## kreynolds

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> *Since he can cast wish, at an exp point cost, he could cast enough wishes to cause him to lose a level (raising attributes, creating a ring of three wishes, whatever). *




You can't spend so much XP creating a magic item that you would lose a level. If you don't have enough XP to spend without losing a level, you can't make the item.

Killing him would be easier, though it certainly isn't a solution to the problem, and the ELH is *not* the problem.


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## doktorstick

kreynolds said:
			
		

> *Killing him would be easier...*



 I thought the general consensus was that you couldn't select different feats, choose different skill point allocation, raise a different attribute, or re-roll HP when you gained a level?  If I recalled correctly, why would you allow a different class?

Given that I am wrong, I am certain that the general concensus that HP are not re-rolled.  I suspose you could scale (up or down) the current hit die and assume he gained/lost that much with his new class.

/ds


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## SpikeyFreak

Things are set the way they are to keep the characters balanced in combat.  If you start giving classes more attacks then they were meant to have, you are going to start imbalancing things in combat.

If combat is really important in your game, I would let him rethink a choice he made in the past, but I wouldn't break the rules.

If it isn't I would give* him a minor artifact that raised his BAB by one.

I would do one of those things.  I don't know if they are wise choices....

--Epic Spikey

*give = allow him to go on a rather long quest to find.


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## kreynolds

doktorstick said:
			
		

> *I thought the general consensus was that you couldn't select different feats, choose different skill point allocation, raise a different attribute, or re-roll HP when you gained a level? *




That would be news to me.


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## Aust Diamondew

*Elh*

I have not read the ELH yet but this whole classes progress completely differently after level 20 thing might deter me from getting it in favor of a different system. 

Why not just have the classes progress normally after level 20?  Spell casters gaining +10th spell slots for metamagic feat usage.  Fighters getting a new feat at level 22, Rangers getting favored enemy #6 at level 25 Barbarians raging 7/day at level 24 etc.

The biggest problem would be a monks unarmed dmg dice. It would go through the roof.

Saves, bab etc. could improve normally.


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## mikebr99

*Re: Elh*



			
				Aust Diamondew said:
			
		

> *I have not read the ELH yet but this whole classes progress completely differently after level 20 thing might deter me from getting it in favor of a different system.
> 
> Why not just have the classes progress normally after level 20?  Spell casters gaining +10th spell slots for metamagic feat usage.  Fighters getting a new feat at level 22, Rangers getting favored enemy #6 at level 25 Barbarians raging 7/day at level 24 etc.
> 
> The biggest problem would be a monks unarmed dmg dice. It would go through the roof.
> 
> Saves, bab etc. could improve normally. *




Classes get bonuses after 20th level. WoTC wanted to cap the number of attacks at the 20th level range simply because there is only so much you can accomplish in 6 seconds.


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## apsuman

Izod, I have a question, what are his levels in each class?

I would have to come down on the side of the all players, the trade off of multi classinghas, well, a trade off.

g!


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## rushlight

I see no reason you couldn't just use Wish to get +1 BAB.  You can easily use Wish for +1 Strength, which confers +1 to attack, along with bonus to damage, and many other benefits.  Wish can provide many, many other things besides.  Spending 5000 XP isn't something to sneeze at.  With a sympathetic GM who wouldnt' mind allowing one more attack it should be a cakewalk.  

To be perfectly honest, as a GM of a very long running campaign that has had characters shift from 2nd edition to 2nd edition Skills and Powers eventually to 3rd edition I've allowed alot more than a +1 BAB for much less than 5000 XP.  Not everyone feels the same way, I know.  If the GM doesn't mind though, the Wish allows an in-game method altering your stats.  Remember that a Wish can do ANYTHING, as long as the GM allows it.


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## kreynolds

rushlight said:
			
		

> *I see no reason you couldn't just use Wish to get +1 BAB. *




Because that's not the type of bonus that Wish can even grant you. Only level gets you that.



			
				rushlight said:
			
		

> *You can easily use Wish for +1 Strength, which confers +1 to attack, along with bonus to damage, and many other benefits. *




So? The bonus to attack from Strength doesn't have the capability of granting you another attack. Increasing your BAB could give you another attack, which is outside the boundaries of a Wish. A wish, after all, can't level you either.



			
				rushlight said:
			
		

> *Wish can provide many, many other things besides. *




Except for an increase in BAB.



			
				rushlight said:
			
		

> *Spending 5000 XP isn't something to sneeze at. *




Irrelevant. If you're 19th level, you need 19,000 XP to get another level, which might or might not increase your BAB, based upon your class. So, sometimes, even 19,000 XP won't get you another attack.

There are 2 solutions to this problem.

1) Create another character and scrap the old one.
2) Quit crying and deal with it. If he's a role-player, this shouldn't be a big deal for him (this assumes, of course, that this individual possesses at least the maturity of a 10 year-old).
3) Stop. Breathe. Think about how hard you have worked to build your character. Think about everything your character has been through, good and bad. Think about all your character has learned. Think about how much your character has grown, developed into something with a personality nearly it's own. Sit back. Now, if none of that makes you feel better, quit role-playing and pick up Diablo II.

This isn't a flaw in the system. This isn't something that needs to be fixed either. When someone stops thinking about the individual their character is, when they stop thinking about what class to take because *it might actually make sense for their character to walk that path*, they are no longer a role-player.


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## Ridley's Cohort

The reason for differentiating the first 20 levels from later levels is to lock in the "feel" of the character.  Otherwise the multiclass incentives would tend to make all characters more similar as they go up in levels beyond 20.

Also remember that what is good for the goose is good for the gander.  If you fudge the rules to let this PC get his 4th iterative attack any character with a 19 or 20 BAB would rightfully demand the opportunity to get their 5th.

It is also obvious this archer has a lot of spellcasting levels; there would be no issue if he had 11 "fighter" type levels.  So I am not sure this character can justify and exception.  I couldn't really say unless I knew more about his character.


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## Zandy

Our group has encountered similar situations.  Since 3e is relatively new still, and there are times we  don't understand a rule, or something new comes out that would fit a character better role-playing wise, we will just back out a level and let the player modify their character.

For example, when S&F came out, one of our monk characters came up with an idea for a PsC.  I took his idea, did all the DM stuff, and let him back out a few levels to take a few of the PsC.  

We figure we're all still learning.  Next time through, we won't be as lenient.


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## Junkheap

Just let him redo his character to the point of where he is now.  i dont see a big deal.  I don't see why you should penalize the player.  Its the same thing as if he says he doesnt feel like playing this character any more and makes a new one.

It really bothers me with cry baby Dm's that HAVE to go by the rules.  Its just a way for a DM to show his control over his players.  Btw i am a DM and a player.  I let a player change his character is he wants to.  He either makes a new character or modifies the old one.  No big deal.  Players enjoy it more and so do i.  It has not affected any of my games and it never will.


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## rushlight

"Because that's not the type of bonus that Wish can even grant you. Only level gets you that."

That's not true.  My PH says, "You may wish for greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous.  Such a wish gives you the opportunity to fulill your request without fulfilling it compeletly."  Then goes on to explain nasty ways for the spell to thwart greedy players.  Since the GM controls the spell, he (or she) decides exactly how nasty the spell is.  If the player wishes for a level, then the GM could just let the player have the level  and all benefits thereof, just because he likes the player (because of bribery with pizza!).  

Or he could decide that letting the player get the level would be unfair to everyone else, and decide that since the player said, "I wish I was level 10 instead of level 9" the Wish decided to oblige.  The spell did some math and figured out the XP needed to  give him the increase in level...  and then brought forth a Adult Red Dragon for the PC to fight while surrounded on 6 sides by a Prismatic Wall (so that no other greedy PCs can steal this characters rightfully Wished XP!)

It's all up to the GM.  There is literally NOTHING that Wish cannot do, provided the GM allows it.  Seeing how the +1 BAB is rather pointless, I'd allow it.  Let's face it, Wish gives +1 to Strength, which is the exact same as a +1 BAB for the first 3 attacks.  The +1 BAB grants an extra attack however.  But lets be honest, if your Epic level Character is fighing against creatures of the same level (and why wouldn't they?  Who gets to 21st level only to go beat up CR 1/2 orcs?) and manages to hit an AC of say 42 (which is the AC of a CR 22 creature from the ELH) with a friggen +1 BAB, then he DESERVES the hit.  Seriously, the 4th extra attack will be at 15 less than the inital attack, and that's where the balance comes in.  

So in short, if the GM doesn't mind you having the extra +1 attack, then there's no reason Wish can't do it.  If the GM doesn't want the player to have it, then Wish doesn't work.  It depends on how much of a punk the GM wants to be as to if the GM tells the player it won't work BEFORE he casts Wish as opposed to letting the player take the 5000 XP hit and THEN doing something nasty to him.  Personally, I don't think a Wish for +1 BAB is really all that hot, and I wouldn't waste 5000 XP on it.  I'd Wish for something more useful to an Epic level character like bumping up important stats.  If a player wants to blow 5k in XP for an attack that will miss 90% of the time I'd let them, and I'd shake my head in wonder.


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## Xeriar

I think for those who aren't just continuing the progression, using the best combo of 20 levels for saves and attacks.

I see a lot of incisive, hypocritical comments here.  I'm not sure if its intentional, but it certainly -seems- like it.  People are complaining, it is a valid balance issue, therefore it is a problem.  

The solutions are easy, I don't see what the issue is or why so much -hate- exists over the issue.  Some people here are getting elitist - I sure hope they never try to bring people into the hobby (thus risking them avoiding it forever).


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## kreynolds

Xeriar said:
			
		

> *I see a lot of incisive, hypocritical comments here.  I'm not sure if its intentional, but it certainly -seems- like it. *




This was probably meant for me, and rightly so. My comments might have been harsh, but they were honest.



			
				Xeriar said:
			
		

> *People are complaining, it is a valid balance issue, therefore it is a problem. *




The mere act of complaining does not a balance issue make. I don't see the problem at all.



			
				Xeriar said:
			
		

> *The solutions are easy, I don't see what the issue is or why so much -hate- exists over the issue.  Some people here are getting elitist - I sure hope they never try to bring people into the hobby (thus risking them avoiding it forever). *




I don't see what the issue is either. So you don't get an additional +1, big deal. So you don't get an extra attack, big deal. And like somebody else mentioned, your last attack is at -15 so granting it from wish must be perfectly reasonable, right? Well, if it isn't a big deal because the last attack is so worthless, then why complain about it in the first place? Would you like to know why? Because, you know, I know, we all know, that 20 levels from now, that last attack won't be so worthless.

I'm not elitist. I just see someone that has lost sight of the game.

Let me try and put this into perspective for you. Ever seen that little kid in toys-r'-us, standing in the isles screaming, "I want it! I want it! I want it!", well, there you go.

I'm perfectly reasonable in working with my player's requests, but this one just isn't worth it.

Point 1) If the last attack isn't a big deal to get from a wish because the attack itself is so worthless, then you won't care if you don't get it, right? I mean, if it's so trivial, what does it matter? (Note: this is the same kind of logic a parent would put before that kid in toys-r'-us)
Point 2) If getting that +1 BAB increase is more important to you than your character and all of your character's amazing accomplishments that all culminated into him becoming powerful to epic proportions, something to be proud of, you've lost sight or you didn't have it to begin with.
Point 3) Weapons of Speed. Haste.

Of course, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong. Ya'll can have the soapbox back now.


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## rushlight

"Point 1) If the last attack isn't a big deal to get from a wish because the attack itself is so worthless, then you won't care if you don't get it, right? I mean, if it's so trivial, what does it matter?"

Well, I can't presume to speak for the player, but perhaps that's the way he envisions his character.  Maybe he thinks his character is some sort of Legolas type guy, and that's what he was looking for.  Or perhaps he just likes rolling the dice.  More likely he had planned on getting his 4th attack on his 21st level and just found out that it wasn't possible by the ELH rules, and was looking for another way to get it.  Any way it goes, it isn't all that big of a deal.  I think that the 4th attack IS trivial.  In fact, from my experience (and I've been playing 3e since it came out) the last attack (when you get several attacks) hits about 10% of the time, regardless of level.  

"Point 2) If getting that +1 BAB increase is more important to you than your character and all of your character's amazing accomplishments that all culminated into him becoming powerful to epic proportions, something to be proud of, you've lost sight or you didn't have it to begin with."

I don't know if you are directly involved in the game in question, but unless you are the player in question I don't think you can tell if he's "lost sight".  Each of us plays D&D for different reasons, and there is no "correct" path in the game.  The only important question is this:  Does the +1 BAB imbalance the game?  Personally I think that at 1st level it might be.  At 21st level not at all.  There's so many ways to counter +1 BAB at 21st level it's mind boggling.  

Last, you said: ", your last attack is at -15 so granting it from wish must be perfectly reasonable, right? Well, if it isn't a big deal because the last attack is so worthless, then why complain about it in the first place? Would you like to know why? Because, you know, I know, we all know, that 20 levels from now, that last attack won't be so worthless."

Well, let's examine that.  Say our guy gets his +1 BAB and advances to level 41 (20 levels from now).  I don't know the detals of character so I'll make some reasonable assumptions.  He probably had a dex of around 22 at 21st level.  Assume he increased his dex at every chance (every other epic level I believe).  That gives him a bonus of +11.  He's probably got a +5 (it might go higher in the ELH, I'm not sure).  Let's not forget his "Epic bonus" to hit of +10.  Let's see, that's +1 BAB (the gimme), +11 dex, +10 Epic bonus, and +5 weapon.  Let's give him a +20 "circumstance" bonus to cover whatever else might be going on.  That's a final attack bonus of +47 to attack, assuming my public school math holds up.  Alright, that's alot.  Let's see what that can do.  Looking through the ELH I found a monster comparably even to a 41st level party: the Mature Adult Prismatic Dragon with a CR of 43.  A few higher but close enough.  It has an AC of 71!  That means our massive attack of +47 still needs a roll of 20 to even have a chance! (Assuming of course that you play natural 20 always hits.  If you don't then you still missed, having only an attack of 67...)  Spending 5000 XP for a 5% chance to thwack something isn't unbalancing in my book.  

Of course all this changes if you aren't fighting monsters of comparable CR.  If all you are doing is hunting down peasants, owlbears and kobalds at 21st (or 41st) level then I think the campagain has more issues than just a +1 BAB.  

Put simply, when fighting a monster of comparable CR, you should have around a 50% chance to hit with stats and weapons and other bonues figured in.  When you subtract 15 from that roll, almost every time your chance to hit drops to 5 or 10%.  Personally, I wouldn't spend 5000 XP for a 5% chance to hit, not if I was level 10, 21 or 51.  Let's face it, this player isn't looking for some extreme advantage and the math bears that out.  It seems like he has a vision of his guy and he's trying to achieve it.


----------



## kreynolds

rushlight said:
			
		

> *perhaps that's the way he envisions his character.  Maybe he thinks his character is some sort of Legolas type guy, and that's what he was looking for. *




If that were the case, he should have stuck with fighter/ranger/tempest, but he didn't. It's like crying and whining over the fact that you just bought a chocolate icecream cone, when what you really wanted was vanilla, but you forgot.



			
				rushlight said:
			
		

> *Or perhaps he just likes rolling the dice. *




He can roll the dice all he wants. I still wouldn't give him the increase to his BAB. That's what leveling is for.



			
				rushlight said:
			
		

> *More likely he had planned on getting his 4th attack on his 21st level and just found out that it wasn't possible by the ELH rules, and was looking for another way to get it.  Any way it goes, it isn't all that big of a deal. *




You're absolutely right. *One* extra attack *isn't* a big deal, so why bother throwing a fit about it?



			
				rushlight said:
			
		

> *I think that the 4th attack IS trivial. *




The only people I know that argue this much over something so trivial are those on medication and wear funny little jackets most of the time.



			
				rushlight said:
			
		

> *In fact, from my experience (and I've been playing 3e since it came out) the last attack (when you get several attacks) hits about 10% of the time, regardless of level. *




This only further proves my point. Why make such a big deal out of something that is apparently "trivial"?



			
				rushlight said:
			
		

> *I don't know if you are directly involved in the game in question *




No.



			
				rushlight said:
			
		

> *but unless you are the player in question I don't think you can tell if he's "lost sight". *




It's a theory. I didn't say I knew him.



			
				rushlight said:
			
		

> *Each of us plays D&D for different reasons, and there is no "correct" path in the game. *




Exactly. Maybe he should find a group that wouldn't mind.



			
				rushlight said:
			
		

> *The only important question is this:  Does the +1 BAB imbalance the game?  Personally I think that at 1st level it might be.  At 21st level not at all.  There's so many ways to counter +1 BAB at 21st level it's mind boggling. *




I'm sure that would change the first time a spellcaster popped you with 4 more swings than usuall because his BAB was increased and he has two speed weapons.



			
				rushlight said:
			
		

> *Well, let's examine that.  Say our guy gets his +1 BAB and advances to level 41 (20 levels from now).  I don't know the detals of character so I'll make some reasonable assumptions.  He probably had a dex of around 22 at 21st level.  Assume he increased his dex at every chance (every other epic level I believe).  That gives him a bonus of +11.  He's probably got a +5 (it might go higher in the ELH, I'm not sure).  Let's not forget his "Epic bonus" to hit of +10.  Let's see, that's +1 BAB (the gimme), +11 dex, +10 Epic bonus, and +5 weapon.  Let's give him a +20 "circumstance" bonus to cover whatever else might be going on.  That's a final attack bonus of +47 to attack, assuming my public school math holds up.  Alright, that's alot.  Let's see what that can do.  Looking through the ELH I found a monster comparably even to a 41st level party: the Mature Adult Prismatic Dragon with a CR of 43.  A few higher but close enough.  It has an AC of 71!  That means our massive attack of +47 still needs a roll of 20 to even have a chance! (Assuming of course that you play natural 20 always hits.  If you don't then you still missed, having only an attack of 67...)  Spending 5000 XP for a 5% chance to thwack something isn't unbalancing in my book. *




1) Spending XP for a crappy attack is not the point. Have you ever noticed that you don't spend xp to gain a level? When you spend XP, you get something in return for delaying your next level up, which ironically, comes with many things, and one of which is, you guessed it, and increase in your BAB.

2) Once again, if it's such a trivial attack, why throw a fit?



			
				rushlight said:
			
		

> *Of course all this changes if you aren't fighting monsters of comparable CR.  If all you are doing is hunting down peasants, owlbears and kobalds at 21st (or 41st) level then I think the campagain has more issues than just a +1 BAB. *




Or if you're defending a stronghold from a thousand orcs (no pun intended).



			
				rushlight said:
			
		

> *Put simply, when fighting a monster of comparable CR, you should have around a 50% chance to hit with stats and weapons and other bonues figured in.  When you subtract 15 from that roll, almost every time your chance to hit drops to 5 or 10%.  Personally, I wouldn't spend 5000 XP for a 5% chance to hit, not if I was level 10, 21 or 51. *




There's that "trivial attack" thing again.



			
				rushlight said:
			
		

> *Let's face it, this player isn't looking for some extreme advantage and the math bears that out. *




I don't know *what* he's looking for that's so important that he feels it necessary to alter the core rules of the class and leveling system.



			
				rushlight said:
			
		

> *It seems like he has a vision of his guy and he's trying to achieve it. *




Apparently a few classes too late.


----------



## Arravis

All I have to say is thank god for Rule 0. D&D=game. I play games for fun and for my friends to have fun. Not only that, it's not Warhammer or chess where every move needs to be carefully strategized. A character career doesn't need to be a tight shute that you must follow at all costs or you can't achieve your personal goals and visions. It was a simple question and a simple goal that he asked and he wanted to see if there was a reasonable and balanced way to achieve those goals.

Why you felt it was necessary to treat this person with contempt, I have no clue. Anyway, I don't see that person "crying and whining".  I try to treat all the fellows on here with respect and I assume that they are all fairly intelligent people. 

And I agree with several of the posters here. The chracter was created without knowledge of the effects of the ELH and the player need not be able to achieve his goals for it. I'm not saying those goals should be easily achieved, but they should be reasonably achiavable. The whole "you should have thought about your epic levels 15 levels ago" seems overly harsh.


----------



## kreynolds

Arravis said:
			
		

> *D&D=game. I play games for fun and for my friends to have fun. *




I agree.



			
				Arravis said:
			
		

> *Why you felt it was necessary to treat this person with contempt, I have no clue. *




Not contempt. Possible disappointment. I don't know the guy. Like I already stated, this is just a theory.



			
				Arravis said:
			
		

> *Anyway, I don't see that person "crying and whining".  I try to treat all the fellows on here with respect and I assume that they are all fairly intelligent people.
> 
> And I agree with several of the posters here. The chracter was created without knowledge of the effects of the ELH and the player need not be able to achieve his goals for it. I'm not saying those goals should be easily achieved, but they should be reasonably achiavable. *




Of course, there are always exceptions.

Really, it all boils down to this. Someone asked could you do it, the answer is no, and now the thread has degraded into "But that's not fair! I didn't know!". Before, it was just a question about the rules, now it's about throwing a temper tantrum.



			
				Arravis said:
			
		

> *The whole "you should have thought about your epic levels 15 levels ago" seems overly harsh. *




I don't think it's harsh. Now, planning really far ahead and screwing the pooch, finding out that you messed up the math and you can't achieve what you want, that's harsh. Believe me. I know. I messed up a two-weapon fighter I had one time, just by taking 1 level of rogue too many. I really dig the character though, so I'll just suck it up and keep playing him. You see, the sheet isn't the heart of my character.

*sniff* I almost made myself cry. *sniff*


----------



## Arravis

Just different styles I suppose. As a DM I'm much more interested in entertaining my players then anything else. This doesn't mean I'm a push over or "weak", there are some things I don't bend on, but something like this seems fairly trivial and since it's important to the "vision" of the character of the player, I'd allow it in some form or other after some work.


----------



## kreynolds

Arravis said:
			
		

> *Just different styles I suppose. *




Probably.



			
				Arravis said:
			
		

> *As a DM I'm much more interested in entertaining my players then anything else. *




Same here, except when something makes my job too difficult, thus taking away any fun I have, or when something is just downright rediculous. The latter doesn't happen often at all.



			
				Arravis said:
			
		

> *This doesn't mean I'm a push over or "weak", there are some things I don't bend on, but something like this seems fairly trivial and since it's important to the "vision" of the character of the player, I'd allow it in some form or other after some work. *




See previous answer. (Incidentally, you don't sound like a pushover  )


----------



## Ridley's Cohort

Xeriar said:
			
		

> *I think for those who aren't just continuing the progression, using the best combo of 20 levels for saves and attacks. *




Best for each stat?  Or pick 20 and then make all the calculations?

Maybe I am just blowing a horn for a lost cause, but I think this method gives tremendous advantages to extreme multiclassing.  I guess I wish a little more character focus were encouraged.  <sigh>

If I were DM I would probably give the guy a break because the rules are new, but I am having a little trouble sympathizing for someone who had his heart set on a 4th attack but could see to picking up 11 "fighter" levels out of the first 20.


----------



## fuindordm

*Blanket house rule it!*

I dont' know if this will solve the problem, because I dont' know this character's class levels.  But on the House Rules forum people were talking about the following rule for multiclassers: 

BAB = (good class levels)*1 + (avg. class levels)*0.75 + (bad class levels)*0.5

Saves = (good class levels)/2 + (bad class levels)/3, +2 if at least one of the character's classes has a good progression.

Round down in both cases.
This tends to boost BAB's slightly and avoid some of the obscenely high saves that you can get from stacking multiple classes.  For example,

Jane is a Wiz5/Ranger3/Cleric2/Arcane Archer10.

Core rules: BAB = 2+3+1+10 = 16
House rule: BAB = 2.5+3+1.5+10 = 17
Core saves: Fort = 1+3+3+7 = +14
            Refl = 1+1+0+7 = +9
            Will = 4+1+3+3 = +11
House saves: Fort = 1.67 + 1.5 + 1 + 5 + 2 = +11
             Refl = 1.67 + 1 + .67 + 5 + 2 = +10
             Will = 2.5 + 1 + 1 + 3.33 + 2 = +9

The principle effect is to lower multiclasser saving throws and avoid screwing people who take more than one class with +0 BAB at level one.  It may not make a difference for your player, however, and some would say that the high saves of multiclasses is a valuable advantage that at least offsets their lack of cosmic power.

Otherwise, I would certainly allow a wish to raise BAB by 1, up to a limit of +5 (parallel to the limit of +5 intrinsic bonus to ability scores) and under no circumstances allowing more than 4 attacks per round.

--Ben


----------



## rushlight

"Really, it all boils down to this. Someone asked could you do it, the answer is no..."

That's where you are flat wrong.  It is their game, and they can give him a BAB of +306 if they wanted to.  The original point of the question as I read is was asking if there was a method already built-in that would allow this.  There is, it is the spell Wish.  Wish allows anything the GM wants it to.  The GM needs to weigh the effects of +1 BAB for a 21st level character versus the cost of casting Wish and the implications to his game.  If he finds that +1 BAB will not imbalance his game he can allow it.  If he finds that +1 BAB will cause problems, then he can say no.  That's all that really needs to be addressed here.  So far I can't see any valid arguments for +1 BAB causing imbalance at 21st level, but of course I'm not involved in the game so I don't know any details.  Just a glance at average "game conditions" though I wouldn't say that +1 BAB is unbalancing, and that's what the previous example I posted shows.

"2) Once again, if it's such a trivial attack, why throw a fit?"

Well, no one is really throwing a fit.  You seem to be focusing on WHY he wants +1 BAB, while the question is something different.  Why he wants it is irrelevant.  The questions are:  1) Can he do it and 2) If he can, does that hurt the game?

Well, my answers are:

1) Yes he can, since Wish allows for ANYTHING (although asking for too much can be dangerous, just like it says in the spell description).

2) I don't think it makes much difference at all when you are a 21st level party.  The monsters you are fighting will have a high enough AC or other magical abilities to offset any benefit gained.  

Don't worry about why he wants to do it, it doesn't matter.  I've even said that I wouldn't do it, but if he wants too then go for it.  For the GM in question he needs to take all the information available and decide if it unbalances HIS game.  If he feels that it doesn't, the Wish spell allows a legal in-game method to achieve the goal, as opposed to doing out-of-game alterations.

Unless you can show that my copy of Wish is wrong or that there's a serious unbalancing effect caused by having a 5% chance (or less) of hitting a creature then we'll just have to agree to disagree.


----------



## LordAO

> Actually, what your post does sound like is that you min/maxed and are now upset that you didn't have enough foresight to know that BABs were not going to work the same.  And now your buddy is laughing at you because he has a slight edge.




Excuse me for offering my opnion, I wouldn't have if I knew I would be insulted personally. Nobody said you have to agree with me. I don't care if you do. But there's no need to attack people personally. And for your info, I'm the DM and don't even have a character, so the last thing I'm worried about is not doing it right. I know the system well enough to min/max as well as the best, but I don't because that's not what is important to me. I'm concerned about the way I heard the epic level rules work because I think it encourages that kind of thinking, not because I think that way. I don't have any problem letting people adjust their characters to get the benefit of the doubt. In fact, I plan to help my players do just that if and when they reach epic levels.


----------



## Crothian

It is his game, and he is free to do what he likes.  However, he choose to ask for other people's opinions.  Unless you use rule zero, BAB can not be increased.  However, if rule zero is assumed to always be used it makes this forum useless.


----------



## kreynolds

rushlight said:
			
		

> *That's where you are flat wrong. <snip> *




An opinion was asked for. I gave it. It isn't wrong. According to me, the answer is no. According to the rules, the answer is no. If anyone doesn't like that answer, fine, but if anyone is just gonna piss and moan because you didn't get the answer you wanted to hear, don't bother posting again.

I never said his DM couldn't do it. What his DM does is none of my business, and I could care less.


----------



## Mr.Binx

How does someone incorporate a BAB into a wish anyhoo?  That really doesn't sound very RP-oriented.  Anyone able to word it well in my game would get the benefits of a Tenser's Transformation spell for a good couple of rounds (which just _happens_ to be in the realm of listed power for a wish spell).  If they ask for the benefits to be permanent, then put them in stasis immediately afterwards.  Give people what they ask for, neh?


----------



## Plane Sailing

kreynolds said:
			
		

> *
> 
> You can't spend so much XP creating a magic item that you would lose a level. If you don't have enough XP to spend without losing a level, you can't make the item.
> *




Well, that was only part of my thesis, which is cast enough wishes that you lose a level. I can't offhand find out whether you are allowed to lose a level from a wish, so you might want to cast just enough wishes so that your xp is near enough to the threshold and then kill your familiar, since that WILL cause you to lose the level.

Then earn the level back the long way.

Cheers


----------



## Plane Sailing

kreynolds said:
			
		

> *
> 
> An opinion was asked for. I gave it. It isn't wrong. According to me, the answer is no.
> *



*
A very fair statement




			According to the rules, the answer is no.
		
Click to expand...


*
Not a fair statement though. It is only according to _your_ interpretation of the rules. 

The forums are a great place to chew ideas over with people, and get alternative views on how to handle an issue. Sometimes other people have an insight into the application of a rule which is useful, at other times not. In many (most?) cases it is about individuals explaining their interpretation of a rule.

After all, the books don't say "check with the ENWorld forums" do they? Just "Check with your dungeon master" 

Cheers


----------



## JacktheRabbit

I have to disagree completely. As a rule PrC classes are more powerful that base classes. You went for that power sooner by grabbing it at Wizard 10. As Yoda would say you took the quick easy path. Sure it got you into your PrC class two levels sooner but the long term effect is the loss of a few points of BAB and save.

That my friend is balancing factors.




			
				LordAO said:
			
		

> *I think it's stupid the way they did attack bonuses and saves in the ELH, because now everyone is worrying about having this combination of levels in that order, unfairly screwing people who make the "mistake" of getting this class at this level instead of that one. All it does is give power players another wepon in their arsenal and leads them further down the road to min/maxing obsession. In the mean time, those who actually care about their character and things like roleplaying get screwed by the rules into having a suckier character. Why should my attack bonus and all of my saves be one point lower (an yes that does matter) because im a Wiz 12/ War Wizard5/ Archmage 5 and i got the extra 2 levels of Wiz after 20th level. If i had got 12th lev wizard before lev 20 and only lev 4 in the other classes my attack and saves would all be 1 pt higher. Its the exact same combination of levels and the exact same character. Why should i be punished because of the order i got those classes?! So if somebody wants to give their characters the benefit of the doubt, I say get over it. *


----------



## JacktheRabbit

Ummm, actually a +1 generally does nothing. Now a +2 to strength will grant you a +1 increase to strength related items.




			
				rushlight said:
			
		

> [B  Let's face it, Wish gives +1 to Strength, which is the exact same as a +1 BAB  [/B]


----------



## LordAO

How is getting a prestige class "the easy path". So sorry I don't follow your dignified way to character developement. I'd have to work just as hard to develop that character as any other. As a general rule, yes, prestige classes are a little more focused and specialized than normal classes, and thus, more powerful. But there are also a whole lot of requirements, disadvantages, etc that make up for it. Getting prestige classes is anything but the "quick and easy" way to develop a character. Besides, that isn't even relevant. Those classes don't even have to be prestige. Even most combinations of any classes will get screwed by the epic rules, such as the Sorcerer 20/Fighter 20 having a higher base attack than a Fighter 20/Sorcerer 20.


----------



## HEL Pit Fiend

rushlight said:
			
		

> *
> 
> 1) Yes he can, since Wish allows for ANYTHING (although asking for too much can be dangerous, just like it says in the spell description).
> 
> *




Actually a wish DOES NOT allow for anything, it's power is not infinite.  It does allow for anything thats comparable to a 9th level spell or lower (or is it 8th and lower?).  There are spells more powerful than wishes, like 10th+ level spells (either epic or lower spells metamagicked up past 9th level).  A wish could not duplcate such spells by itself, so there are limits to wish, afterall it's "only" 9th level.

If someone in my campaign "Wish"ed for a +1 BAB and for the corresponding extra attack, I would allow it... but after 24 hours, it would lose it's magical fuel, and BAM, no more +1 BAB...

Now if that player REALLY REALLY wanted that +1 BAB or his character is trash and worthless in his eyes and it would spoil his fun, then, as GM I would wave my hand and voila, theres your +1 BAB (Divine Wish).  But remember, all things come at a price, and in the end, I will get my payment...


----------



## JacktheRabbit

Its called roleplaying GENIUS! When you chose one option instead of another there are benefits and disadvantages that go with that choice.

Is that so hard to get through your skull? Do mounchkins just not understand common sense?





			
				LordAO said:
			
		

> *How is getting a prestige class "the easy path". So sorry I don't follow your dignified way to character developement. I'd have to work just as hard to develop that character as any other. As a general rule, yes, prestige classes are a little more focused and specialized than normal classes, and thus, more powerful. But there are also a whole lot of requirements, disadvantages, etc that make up for it. Getting prestige classes is anything but the "quick and easy" way to develop a character. Besides, that isn't even relevant. Those classes don't even have to be prestige. Even most combinations of any classes will get screwed by the epic rules, such as the Sorcerer 20/Fighter 20 having a higher base attack than a Fighter 20/Sorcerer 20. *


----------



## jontherev

I think several posters in this thread need to throw back several chill pills with a tall glass of your favorite liquid.  Are differences of opinion over a GAME really worth resorting to insulting each other like this?  It just seems really petty to me.  No offense to anyone intended, which is why I am not naming names.  I've just read a lot of contemptuous posts in this thread, and I think some folks should take more time before they hit that 'submit reply' button.  That's all I have to say right now.


----------



## rushlight

DocMoriartty said:
			
		

> *Its called roleplaying GENIUS! When you chose one option instead of another there are benefits and disadvantages that go with that choice.
> 
> Is that so hard to get through your skull? Do mounchkins just not understand common sense?
> *




First, no GM who values the enjoyment of his players should allow a decision made without full knowledge of the facts to stand firm, with no examination at all.

Second, you should probably get more information on the issue at hand before you attack people.

The decisions made up to this point were made under the assumption that BAB would increase for the next 20 levels as they had for the previous 20.  Those rules were changed when the ELH was released.  I don't think the player is disappointed with his decisions up to this point - only that his goals cannot now be achieved because of the change in attack calculation.  Any GM who says at that point, "Nope, that's tough- sucks to be you" needs to examine why he plays the game.  Not every player desire can be filled due to game balance issues, but the request should at least be entertained if just briefly.  

Each GM is different, though.  While I don't think +1 BAB at 21st level makes much of a difference, another GM might have other plans.  It's up to the GM to make those decisions.  The person here just wanted to know the effects of increasing BAB by one, and if there was in in-game method to do so (i.e. Wish).  

Last, Pit Fiend said, "Actually a wish DOES NOT allow for anything, it's power is not infinite. It does allow for anything that's comparable to a 9th level spell or lower (or is it 8th and lower?). There are spells more powerful than wishes, like 10th+ level spells (either epic or lower spells metamagicked up past 9th level). A wish could not duplcate such spells by itself, so there are limits to wish, afterall it's "only" 9th level."

Actually, the Wish spell lists those effects as specific things Wish can do with no danger, guaranteed.  The spell description then goes on to say, "You may wish for greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. Such a wish gives you the opportunity to fulfill your request without fulfilling it completely."  So you could in fact Wish for literally ANYTHING.  It's just dangerous, and up to the GM what nasty things happen to you, if any.  You could Wish to be immortal (which isn't included as a specific power of Wish, but is possible).  Of course, most GMs would grant your Wish with a permanent Stasis or perhaps an Imprisonment, and voila! you will "live" forever.  You could also Wish to have blue skin, which most GMs would just allow to happen (since usually being blue is it's own punishment).  In the end it's the player's 5000 XP, and they can Wish for anything.  It's the GMs job to decide if the Wish is balanced within the game, and if it's possible in his world.


----------



## doktorstick

rushlight said:
			
		

> *The decisions made up to this point were made under the assumption that BAB would increase for the next 20 levels as they had for the previous 20.  Those rules were changed when the ELH was released.  I don't think the player is disappointed with his decisions up to this point - only that his goals cannot now be achieved because of the change in attack calculation.  Any GM who says at that point, "Nope, that's tough- sucks to be you" needs to examine why he plays the game.  Not every player desire can be filled due to game balance issues, but the request should at least be entertained if just briefly.   *



 And if the player thought that iterative attacks would increase into the epic levels?  Would you allow that as well?  ("Hey!  I didn't know that I couldn't get +40/+35/+30/+25/+20/+15/+10/+5!  My whole character concept is ruined!") At some point, the DM is going to have to cut-off the player's wants/expectations.  Several of us think that this should be as per the rules, regardless of the wants or desires of the players.

/ds


----------



## mikebr99

The only problem I see with giving a character the extra attack at 21st level where one normally wouldn't be, is that every odd level after (and including) 21st, the epic character gains a +1 epic bonus to attack... which may (with magic) make this last attack become effective, and thereby put the character in the realm of pure fighters when he has multiclassed out of that profession.


----------



## rushlight

doktorstick said:
			
		

> * And if the player thought that iterative attacks would increase into the epic levels?  Would you allow that as well?  ("Hey!  I didn't know that I couldn't get +40/+35/+30/+25/+20/+15/+10/+5!  My whole character concept is ruined!") At some point, the DM is going to have to cut-off the player's wants/expectations.  Several of us think that this should be as per the rules, regardless of the wants or desires of the players.
> 
> /ds *




I wouldn't allow one person to have 7 attacks when everyone else is stuck with 4.  I agree that not every player desire can be achieved because of balance, but all the GM need do is entertain the idea.  Player A suggests getting 7 attacks, and the GM says, "Well, that would be nice, but none of the other players get that, and the monsters don't either so that would screw things up.  Sorry!"  A bit of courtesy can be nice, even if the player gets wacky.

"The only problem I see with giving a character the extra attack at 21st level where one normally wouldn't be, is that every odd level after (and including) 21st, the epic character gains a +1 epic bonus to attack... which may (with magic) make this last attack become effective, and thereby put the character in the realm of pure fighters when he has multiclassed out of that profession."

That seems logical at first, but consider that along with every 2 levels in which the player gets a bonus to attack, the monsters they are fighting also get more power and AC and magic.  See my example below for comparisons for a 4th attack at 21st level and again at 41st level.  In both cases, the 4th iterative attack garners at best a 5% chance if even that.  You could continue this into triple digit levels, but for every increase in power the players get the baddies should get the exact same.


----------



## kreynolds

rushlight said:
			
		

> *all the GM need do is entertain the idea. *




This is the part that you just don't get. As a DM(GM, whatever), I entertained the idea. I thought it was rediculous. So the answer is no. So, I guess I did my part, performed my duties.


----------



## jontherev

I think the real issue here is that a new book came out with new rules.  In our campaign, our DM allowed us to alter/tweak our characters when the splatbooks came out.  I see this as the same type of thing.  Allowing someone to change their character a little shouldn't effect the game much, and will make for a happier player in many instances.  This is different than asking for more BAB at 21st level.  He's actually asking to go back in time and re-plan his pc.  I know that's odd and totally done out of game, but this is a special circumstance.  It does not tear apart the fabric of reality to allow your players to alter their pc's under conditions like this.  I'm not talking about a total change, but rather a few changes based upon any new rules that were added.  Once all the books are out, this is not necessary.

Sometimes, it is to the detriment of one's pc.  Take all of us poor, poor rogues  who took Expert Tactician at like 3rd level when Sword and Fist came out.  Just as Song and Silence came out, I was ecstatic because I had just turned 9th level.  As I salivated over the different feats available, I was shattered when I noticed that my feat had already been chosen for me...Combat Reflexes, which was the newly added prerequisite for ET.  I never would have taken that feat otherwise, but I have since left that disappointment behind me.  Over 3 levels, I have yet to use this feat.  Unless I change my concept (specializes in daggers) and start using a kusari-gama (he's a halfling), I don't plan on getting much use out of the feat EVER.  BUT, it's worth it for ET.

So, whether it is for the good or bad of the pc, I think it's perfectly ok to allow a player to make a change or two when new books come out.  This entire thread would not have happened if the ELH was out a year ago.  YMMV.


----------



## apsuman

Ok, I still want to know what levels in what classes this guy has...

I think that to answer to core question, No.  There is no way in the rules as printed to allow for an additional BAB.

I do not like the idea of using a wish as I think this should be outside the power of a wish.

Ifyou refer to myths, the heroes and villians in those stories were epic, but there were still those that were better fighters or warriors or whatever than each other.  Just because a character only gets 3 iteratvie attacks does not mean that they would not be able to fulfill a vision of a character, or that they are especially handicapped against other PCs.

If it is that important to you I would suggest the following as possible solutions:

Calculate his BAB using fractional BAB, a wizard gets .5 BAB every level, see if adding his BAB this way gets you to the extra +1.

A feat (I think feats are bigger than wishes) that allows users to reach their next iterative attack 1 BAB less than required.  This feels good to me it lets level five fighters and level seven rogues/clerics/warriors get that extra attack one level sooner.  Still cap it at 4 attacks.  This way his BAB would be +15/+10/+5/+0.  Also I like this idea because he has to give up something rather than having a gift handed to him.


g!


----------



## apsuman

Ok, I will take the absolute silence since my last post as a sign that everyone in this thread agrees with me.

In short your silence speaks volumes about how much genius there is in my proposed solutions (I especially like the feat).

So, thank you all for affirming my self image.


----------



## doktorstick

apsuman said:
			
		

> *In short your silence speaks volumes about how much genius there is in my proposed solutions (I especially like the feat).*



 Well, silence *is* damning.


----------



## kreynolds

apsuman said:
			
		

> *Ok, I will take the absolute silence since my last post as a sign that everyone in this thread agrees with me. *




I agree with part of it. There's no way to get an increase in your BAB except by leveling. I still wouldn't give it to him. To me, this is a non-issue.


----------



## Zerovoid

There seem to be alot of real uptight DM's posting to this thread.  I say, just allow the player to retroactively switch his levels in wizard and ranger, once he takes his 21st level as a wizard.  I really hate when things are dependant on the order that class levels were taken, but when I brought this up once before in a different context, most people seemed to think it was a feature, and not a bug.

The fact is, there have been new rules released, rules that would have affected the player's decisions had he known about them earlier.  Rather than punishing him for working his character all the way up from level 1 to 20 organically, instead of just creating a new 20th level character, you should allow him to change his character, as long as the altered character is also possible within the rules, and doesn't violate continuity.

Changing the order that a character took classes does not in my mind violate the continuity of the game world, or break suspension of disbelief.


----------



## Akunin

doktorstick said:
			
		

> *That is a poor example... The reason is that character progressing as either one of the primary classes will be developed towards that class.
> 
> /ds *




You must have missed the line about "Assuming identical stats, feats, skills, spells and equipment, who wins?".


----------



## doktorstick

Akunin said:
			
		

> *You must have missed the line about "Assuming identical stats, feats, skills, spells and equipment, who wins?". *




Actually, I didn't.  Unless 40th-level characters are being born from the heads of gods, it makes a difference.  Background.  Roleplaying.

/ds


----------



## doktorstick

Be more imaginative.  _tenser's transformation_ has one component that adds BAB.  It does a lot of other things, too.  The downside is that you can not cast spells.

Why not create a spell that grants only BABs and allows you to cast spells.  Put that into an item and get your +10 BAB to gain your extra attacks.

Think outside the box in solving problems.  Don't whine and complain about the rules.

/ds


----------



## Crothian

I can't believe this is still going on.  Part of this game is about choices.  He choose to do spellcasting first so he's BAB suffered.  However, he has a better will save becasue of it and in those adventures he got to cast spells.  

Next we are going to be hearing about someone who is playing a Sorcerer Barbarian.  THey were sorcerer first, then went to barbarian.  He rolled terrible on his barbarian HP (a 1) so only has 9 HP (4 from sorcer, 1 from barbarian, and +2 twice from his 14 con).  THe character dies becasue of it's low HP, but the PC complains "If I would have taken Barbarian first I'd have 12+1d4+4 HP and I'd be alive".  

Learn to live with your choices instead of complaining about it.


----------



## LordAO

DocMoriartty said:
			
		

> *Its called roleplaying GENIUS! When you chose one option instead of another there are benefits and disadvantages that go with that choice.
> 
> Is that so hard to get through your skull? Do mounchkins just not understand common sense?*




Excuse me?

What you can't seem to get through your skull is that I understand the system perfectly. I'm not at all worried about myself. I can min/max just fine. I'm arguing for the sake of people like you who obviously don't understand the system well enough to know a good rule from a bad one. Munchkin you say? Do you think I dislike this way of doing it because it makes me less munchkin? I can make as much of a munchkin character as I want with any system of doing things. But I don't. I'm not the type who gets a thrill out of making those kinds of characters. What I don't understand is why people like you have to get insulting any time someone brings up a point of view other than your own. I have said nothing that would allow you to make the audacious assumption that I'm "munchkin." People like you, rather than express valid opinions and objective reasoning (which you are obviously incapable of) can do nothing else but call people "muchkin." How pathetic! If you have nothing else to add to this thread other than slander, don't bother posting.


----------



## kreynolds

LordAO. The real problem here is that this entire thread no longer belongs on the rules board. The question was "can you?". The answer is "no". Any other options, decisions, trains of thought, etc, belong in the house rules thread. The simple fact that the thread continues to exhist here is the primary cause of all the backlash. On the house rules thread, there is a lot more open mindedness, simply because that is where you change the rules. You don't change the rules here. A quick proposal of how someone handles a rule differently, or an interpretation of a rule, is fine, but anything prolonged will get beaten to death so long as the thread exhists here.

The bottom line is this. There is no way to increase your BAB except by leveling. If anyone wants to compare the Wish spell with a small +1 BAB increase, simply look at the Epic Prowess feat, an Epic feat mind you, and you'll know that a +1 BAB increase is far outside the power of Wish.

If anyone wants to "fix" this so-called "broken" rule (actually, this thread isn't about "fixing" a rule, but it's about altering the core system), do so on the house rules board. That's what it's there for.

Of course, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.


----------



## rushlight

"The question was "can you?". The answer is "no"."

YOUR answer was "no".  There are other interpretations available.

"...anyone wants to compare the Wish spell with a small +1 BAB increase, simply look at the Epic Prowess feat, an Epic feat mind you, and you'll know that a +1 BAB increase is far outside the power of Wish."

That is obviously false to anyone who has actually read the entire description of the Wish spell.  No one yet has managed to comment on the fact that the spell spcifically allows for effects greater than those named, although with danger.  You could quite legally Wish to be God, Wish to be the sole person left alive on the entire planet, or Wish to have the entire universe destroyed by a purple rodent.  Of course, all of those Wishes would result in failure, usually with dire results to the caster,  because they outright unbalance or destroy the game.  

With a sympathetic GM who understands that not every player can make decisions based on books that haven't been written yet might allow a Wish for a +1 BAB to keep player enjoyment high.  Especially since not a single person here can show how +1 BAB is unbalancing in the least.  

So far, I've put forth rules and evidence that would support Wish doing this, and more proof that +1 BAB makes little relevance to an Epic level game.  All the detractors have put forth is, "NO! You can't do that because it isn't specifically spelled out in the rules and you can't do something that isn't spelled out specifically!", or "That would require make(ing) my job too difficult, thus taking away any fun I have...", or just insults for not knowing that Epic levels would work this way and you should have obviously planned ahead.

Of course, the second quote is from someone here, in this thread.  The others apparently called Ms Cleo and got the info on the ELH long before it's release and thus didn't need to do any adjusting.  

Let's be fair, some of you don't think a player should be allowed to do something like this.  That's fine, not everyone agrees.  But the insults and derision is a bit thick from the "no" camp.  One might draw conclusions on that, but that would be conjecture.  So instead of insulting the original questioner, just state that you wouldn't allow a player to do this, and perhaps why.  But please don't say "Wish can't do that" unless you can show that your copy of the Wish spell stops with the specific effects of Wish.  Perhaps you might postulate that you wouldn't ALLOW Wish to do this, which is perfectly legal.  But some of us WOULD allow Wish to do this which is also perfectly legal.


----------



## kreynolds

rushlight said:
			
		

> *"YOUR answer was "no". *




That's because the rules say "no".



			
				rushlight said:
			
		

> *"The question was "can you?". The answer is "no"."
> 
> That is obviously false to anyone who has actually read the entire description of the Wish spell. *




I disagree. See below for more info.



			
				rushlight said:
			
		

> *No one yet has managed to comment on the fact that the spell spcifically allows for effects greater than those named, although with danger.  You could quite legally Wish to be God, Wish to be the sole person left alive on the entire planet, or Wish to have the entire universe destroyed by a purple rodent.  Of course, all of those Wishes would result in failure, usually with dire results to the caster,  because they outright unbalance or destroy the game. *




You know, a failed wish is a failed wish. Either you get it or you don't. If you wished yourself out of a dungeon, and that's all you said, not being specific, you may very well end up in another dungeon, because there are limitless answers to your wish. In the case of a +1 BAB, you're being very specific. Failure is failure. Besides, my argument is that it's far enough beyond the reach of the power of wish, that it will fail every time you try it.



			
				rushlight said:
			
		

> *Especially since not a single person here can show how +1 BAB is unbalancing in the least. *




Funny, I thought I did that. *shrug*



			
				rushlight said:
			
		

> *So far, I've put forth rules and evidence that would support Wish doing this, and more proof that +1 BAB makes little relevance to an Epic level game. *




ROTFLMAO Woho! Ohh, that's rich!!! LOL



			
				rushlight said:
			
		

> *All the detractors have put forth is, "NO! You can't do that because it isn't specifically spelled out in the rules and you can't do something that isn't spelled out specifically!", *




Actually, I put forth my argument that Epic Prowess is far outside the power of Wish, but you didn't get it. Oh well.



			
				rushlight said:
			
		

> *"That would require make(ing) my job too difficult, thus taking away any fun I have...", or just insults for not knowing that Epic levels would work this way and you should have obviously planned ahead.
> 
> Of course, the second quote is from someone here, in this thread. *




First, that quote is from one of my posts. You're taking it way out of context. Snipped on it's own like that, it has no meaning at all. Obviously, you don't have a clue as to why I posted that and what it means.

Secondly, learn to...


> *quote*



...properly. Thanks.



			
				rushlight said:
			
		

> *The others apparently called Ms Cleo and got the info on the ELH long before it's release and thus didn't need to do any adjusting. *




Heh. I didn't use my Epic Prowess argument until after the ELH hit the streets. Nice try, but try again.



			
				rushlight said:
			
		

> *Let's be fair, some of you don't think a player should be allowed to do something like this. *




You're finally catching on.



			
				rushlight said:
			
		

> *But the insults and derision is a bit thick from the "no" camp. *




Maybe, but I don't know. See previous post.



			
				rushlight said:
			
		

> *But please don't say "Wish can't do that" unless you can show that your copy of the Wish spell stops with the specific effects of Wish. *




I already demonstrated my opinion as to why a +1 BAB increase is outside the power of wish.



			
				rushlight said:
			
		

> *Perhaps you might postulate that you wouldn't ALLOW Wish to do this, which is perfectly legal. *




Yup. Wish is a rule-breaker, and it's meant to be that way. This is just one rule that is far outside the power of wish.



			
				rushlight said:
			
		

> *But some of us WOULD allow Wish to do this which is also perfectly legal. *




Tell you what. If you, in character, can show me, the DM, how you can conceptualize and envision a +1 increase in your BAB, I might think about it. If you can do that without your wish sounding like crap, if you can do that without any metagame knowledge, if you can do that completely in character and in role-play, I might think about it.

Come to think of it, if you wish for a +1 BAB, you are doing so for the sole purpose of gaining an extra attack, and one of the possible results from wish could be that you suddenly, and quite permanently, lose a level. There. Now you can earn XP and level again, only this time, I would strongly suggest that you take a level in something that will bump up your BAB high enough. If one level drain isn't enough, two might do it as well.

So there ya' go. A +1 BAB increase for the purpose of gaining another attack via level/multiple level loss so that you may re-level your character in the proper way so as to gain your extra attack. And Wish did it.

See? I'm willing to work with ya.


----------



## AvarielAvenger

If multiclassed characters, or Clerics and Wizards can Wish to gain a point of BAB, then I'd say Fighter types should be able to Wish to gain levels of spellcasting.  It's the same thing, after all.  You're giving inherent bonuses of taking a level in a class through a magic spell.  

You know, this thread is really pointless now.  Like Kreynolds says, by the rules in the ELH, you cannot do what you want to do.  By the rules, a Wish cannot give a point of BAB.  You can change that in your game if you want, but realize it _is_ a house rule.


----------



## rushlight

"By the rules, a Wish cannot give a point of BAB. You can change that in your game if you want, but realize it is a house rule."

That is what I don't understand.  The Wish spell SAYS that you can Wish for greater effects, and that it just might be dangerous.  It's up to the GM in question to decide what will be dangerous, what won't, and what exactly a Wish can do.  It's not a house rule, it's a game rule.

To be perfectly honest it really doesn't matter to me if you get this point, so I agree this thread is becoming pointless.  Some of you fail to understand exactly what Wish can do, but there's really not much more I can do about that except tell you to reread the spell.  Sure, different GMs will allow it to do different things.  But no matter what happens it's still within the bounds of Wish.  Again, I could Wish that the entire universe was swamped in whip cream, and if the GM thought that might be funny or possible it would happen.  That's not a house rule, that's a game rule.  Wish can do "greater effects than these" and "it MIGHT be dangerous".  Well, swamping the universe in whip cream qualifies as a "greater effect" and it obviously was dangerous, since we'd all drown.  Perfectly legal.  As for causing the character to lose levels, that's perfectly legal too.  After all, the +1 BAB is a "greater effect" and it can be "dangerous".  If that's the way you wanna handle that, then go for it.  

As for +1 BAB being unbalanced, would you mind explaining how gaining an attack that will miss 95% (or more) of the time when fighting balanced CR monsters is unbalanced?  Apparently I missed that point.  Maybe you roll more natural 20s that usual or something...  

Oh, and I'll quote how I like.  If you are down to attacking my posting style (or perhaps you'll start with grammer and spelling next) then I suppose we should just end this.  If you've got no more specific points related to the conversation, just say so.


----------



## Xeriar

If you wish for a point of BAB, I would rule that two of your wizard levels would switch to fighter levels, with no bonus feats.

Since I go by the 'use your best 20 levels' rule, it would be uneccesary anyway.


----------



## doktorstick

rushlight said:
			
		

> *"As for +1 BAB being unbalanced, would you mind explaining how gaining an attack that will miss 95% (or more) of the time when fighting balanced CR monsters is unbalanced?  Apparently I missed that point.  Maybe you roll more natural 20s that usual or something... *



 This point was covered already.  That fourth attack at +1 (without bonuses) may not matter now.  But in 20 levels, that extra attack will be +21 (without bonuses).  If it isn't such a big deal, then why fuss about it?  Create a new spell that grants BABs and put it in a continuous item.  Problem solved.  That _is_ within the scope of the rules.

/ds


----------



## Crothian

For those who missed it, this thread shows the legite way to get that extra +1 BAB.  

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18253

EDIT: Okay, maybe not.  But it's an interesting thought none the less.


----------



## rushlight

"This point was covered already. That fourth attack at +1 (without bonuses) may not matter now. But in 20 levels, that extra attack will be +21 (without bonuses). "

This is true.  But had you actually read my reply to this point, you would have seen:

"Well, let's examine that. Say our guy gets his +1 BAB and advances to level 41 (20 levels from now). I don't know the detals of character so I'll make some reasonable assumptions. He probably had a dex of around 22 at 21st level. Assume he increased his dex at every chance (every other epic level I believe). That gives him a bonus of +11. He's probably got a +5 (it might go higher in the ELH, I'm not sure). Let's not forget his "Epic bonus" to hit of +10. Let's see, that's +1 BAB (the gimme), +11 dex, +10 Epic bonus, and +5 weapon. Let's give him a +20 "circumstance" bonus to cover whatever else might be going on. That's a final attack bonus of +47 to attack, assuming my public school math holds up. Alright, that's alot. Let's see what that can do. Looking through the ELH I found a monster comparably even to a 41st level party: the Mature Adult Prismatic Dragon with a CR of 43. A few higher but close enough. It has an AC of 71! That means our massive attack of +47 still needs a roll of 20 to even have a chance! (Assuming of course that you play natural 20 always hits. If you don't then you still missed, having only an attack of 67...) "

So you can see that the argument that in 20 more levels it makes a difference.  It doesn't, because while you gain 20 levels of more power, the monsters you should be fighting have also gained 20 levels or more of power.  And thus your 4th iterative attack will still miss 95% of the time, or more.  The argument that gaining levels will allow the +1 to become relevant is spurious logic, and false.  When your guy is 180th level, and has a 4th attack of +81 or so, the monsters you'll be fighting will probably have an AC of 120 or so...  That's because the scaling of the CRs works very well.  Reguardless of your level, the first attack is your most powerful.  Those attacks that follow become less and less useful, until your last attack is almost asured to miss.

"If it isn't such a big deal, then why fuss about it? "

Good question.    To tell the truth, I would never do this, and as a GM I would point out that it makes almost no difference at all to the game, and thus not worth 5000 XP.  Players don't always do what makes sense though, and really a GM should usually try to accomodate his players if it doesn't affect game balance.  This is just personal opinion, but I don't think a GM should shoot down an idea just because it causes them more work or makes things different that the exact letter of the book.  Sometimes it's OK to just toss out the books and oblige a player.  Especially when doing so makes no difference to the game.


Oh, and I forgot to give an example as to how to word the Wish.

As long as I didn't have a GM who was just going to hose me because I was making a Wish that wasn't on the approved list I'd word it this way:

I Wish I my innate ability to fight was better so that I would be good enough to get more strikes in during combat.

Now, sure you could say that this gives you some sort of additional bonus to attack as opposed to BAB, but BAB is the only "innate" attacking ability which doesn't change with weapon, circumstance, or method of attack (ranged vs melee).

Besides, you COULD just reward the Wish "I Wish I was smarter!" with an extra spell point as opposed to the +1 to INT.  Obviously the INT bonus is the one sought, just like the BAB bonus is the one sought in tthe previous Wish.


----------



## doktorstick

rushlight said:
			
		

> *This is true.  But had you actually read my reply to this point, you would have seen:*



 I did recall that as I was typing, but was already committed to posting.   I'm not sure that characters in Epic Level campaigns will, in the majority of the time, be fighting equally powerful creatures.  In the admittedly few high-level campaigns I have been involved in, there was the occassional uber-powerful creature or mastermind, but most of the time we were overcoming horrid traps, fighting at severe disadvantages, or mobs of lower-level villians.  The encounters still ranged from moderate-to-difficult, but that 4th attack would be worth a lot more in the campaigns I have participated in.

/ds


----------



## jontherev

I have yet to see anyone reply to myself and several other posters who have asked how in the world one could word a wish without metagaming in order to gain a bab +1.  Consider that a challenge.  Wishing for 1 more attack would not do it, as that would be metagaming...so you just happened to wish this when your bab was only 1 away from another attack?  How in the world would your pc know this?  Yeah right.  More likely, you would receive a monk's belt or boots of speed...or a mean dm might haste you for a limited time period and then take it away for good.

Now, if you actually wished for a +1 bab, then you just wasted 5k exp, as your god has no idea what you just wished for.  Either that, or he might give you a +1 wisdom or intelligence so that you make more sense next time...if you are lucky.

Sorry, but I don't see anyway to do this in-game without metagaming.  Therefore, you cannot wish for a +1 bab.  As kreynolds said (paraphrased due to laziness), convince us that you can do this w/o metagaming, and then we will talk about this possibility more.

However, if you have a dm and a group who just plays for fun and doesn't make roleplaying a high priority (which is fine, if that's what you like...I'm not telling anyone how to play the GAME), then sure, you could wish for a +1 bab.

As I said before, in this situation, just let the player rewrite his pc based upon the new rules.  I don't what the big problem is.  But when all the books are out, no more changing stuff around.  As long as the changes are approved by the DM, it's all good right?


----------



## rushlight

"I have yet to see anyone reply to myself and several other posters who have asked how in the world one could word a wish without metagaming in order to gain a bab +1."

Then you apparently didn't read my last post.  It read:

"As long as I didn't have a GM who was just going to hose me because I was making a Wish that wasn't on the approved list I'd word it this way:

I Wish I my innate ability to fight was better so that I would be good enough to get more strikes in during combat.

Now, sure you could say that this gives you some sort of additional bonus to attack as opposed to BAB, but BAB is the only "innate" attacking ability which doesn't change with weapon, circumstance, or method of attack (ranged vs melee).

Besides, you COULD just reward the Wish "I Wish I was smarter!" with an extra skill point as opposed to the +1 to INT. Obviously the INT bonus is the one sought, just like the BAB bonus is the one sought in tthe previous Wish."

I think that would cover it right nicely.

Doc posted: "In the admittedly few high-level campaigns I have been involved in, there was the occassional uber-powerful creature or mastermind, but most of the time we were overcoming horrid traps, fighting at severe disadvantages, or mobs of lower-level villians. "

Were I the GM of that game I probably would agree with you.  Every GM is responsible for maintaining game balance and keeping fun high.  Not every solution is right for every game.

I guess the reason I keep coming back to this thread is because I believe that the Wish solution is POSSIBLE (legally speaking) but not necessarily appropriate to every game.  This differs from the others who insist it's a house rule or not legal under the rules.  They haven't apparently actually read the spell, but yet the feel the need to criticize others for their game decisions.  So I had to address that.


----------



## Gromm

Crothian said:
			
		

> *It is his game, and he is free to do what he likes.  However, he choose to ask for other people's opinions.  Unless you use rule zero, BAB can not be increased.  However, if rule zero is assumed to always be used it makes this forum useless. *





Aint that the F-ing truth.  I often wonder why some people (not neccessarily this thread), ask questions of rules.  Once they hear the answer they raise a stink and say its not fair and yadda-yadda- yadda and then Rule 0 it.  So why even ask in the first place if you had your heart set on chaging the rules to what you wanted them to be?  The point of this forum is to ask how the rules work, not to bitch and moan when the rules don't work the way you want them too.

As far as the whole insult issue, I've been reading. Its Kreynolds.... I mean comon.  If you take him personally you'll probably end up jumping off the Brooklyn bridge or something.  Its just the way he is, don't take it to heart just get used to it (I don't know how many times hes insulted me now).  

The simplest solution is to allow the Wish to drop him a level in one of his existing classes (seems well within the power of wish to use it to screw yourself over).  If he wants the fricken BAB THAT badly, then by all means shoot yourself in the foot for the thing.  If not then tuff tittie and move on with your life, if you really wanted to be super archer you'd make a pure fighter.  Multiclassing is great and all, but to be the best swordsman, archer, axe thrower, or whatever you go with fighter.  Kinda like if you want to be a master spell caster you go straight Sor or Wiz, just the way it works.  Arcane archers are neat and all, but near as I can figure it should have been pretty easy to get enough BAB for that extra attack if you wanted it that badly.

Oh and for those who haven't figured it out... Wish DOES have a limit on its power.  You can't wish yourself to become say a god, no matter how "well worded" it is.  This came up before in some other issue a while back where someone tried to be smart and wish for something beyond Wish's power.  Its a 9th level spell, but you can't use it to say cast Energy Drain.  Why?  Because it can't replicate 9th level spells.  I don't care if it costs XP or not, it can't do it. Says so right in the book.  You can wish to do all kinds of things outside of the range of wish, if you word it poorly you'll probably die.  If you word it perfectly, nothing will happen.  

Lets look at the possible wording of this wish anyway:
"I wish I had another point of BAB"  ummm no.
"I wish I had taken a fighter level instead of a mage level"  Nope.
"I wish I had spent more time training in martial combat instead of wizardly arts."  Hey good idea, but unfortunately wish can't alter time last I looked so its beyond the ability of Wish- granted it could probably make you lose a wizard level but even wording that would be pretty rough.

So just kill him and help the guy out.


----------



## Numion

Wouldn't it be easiest to just give him the extra attack without worrying too much about the BAB? That shouldn't ruin out the game for anyone, and is an easy fix.


----------



## HEL Pit Fiend

rushlight said:
			
		

> *
> "Well, let's examine that. Say our guy gets his +1 BAB and advances to level 41 (20 levels from now). I don't know the detals of character so I'll make some reasonable assumptions. He probably had a dex of around 22 at 21st level. Assume he increased his dex at every chance (every other epic level I believe). That gives him a bonus of +11. He's probably got a +5 (it might go higher in the ELH, I'm not sure). Let's not forget his "Epic bonus" to hit of +10. Let's see, that's +1 BAB (the gimme), +11 dex, +10 Epic bonus, and +5 weapon. Let's give him a +20 "circumstance" bonus to cover whatever else might be going on. That's a final attack bonus of +47 to attack, assuming my public school math holds up. Alright, that's alot. Let's see what that can do. Looking through the ELH I found a monster comparably even to a 41st level party: the Mature Adult Prismatic Dragon with a CR of 43. A few higher but close enough. It has an AC of 71! That means our massive attack of +47 still needs a roll of 20 to even have a chance! (Assuming of course that you play natural 20 always hits. If you don't then you still missed, having only an attack of 67...) "
> *





Ahh, nope, the guy is an arcane archer, they are VERY DEADLY, It's gonna look more like this:

From 21st level, last attack at.................................... +1
Gain levels to 41st.................................................... +10
Dex 44 (22, +12 gloves, +5 inherent, +5 level advance).. +17
Weapon Focus........................................................... +1
Epic Weapon Focus.................................................... +2
Epic Prowess x5 (anywhere from 3 to 7 if he's smart) .... +5
Bow +10................................................................... +10
and last but not least
Enchant Arrow (class ability, 31st level Arcane Archer)... +16

By the way, the magic items I used add up to 4.2 million gold, he has over 14 million total to work with, I'm sure he could come up with some other epic items giving insight or divine bonuses too....

Let's add it up
1+10+17+1+2+5+10+16 = +62

Against AC 71, thats a 60% chance to-hit with that last attack.  And what is that dragon's younger brother gonna do when he finds out your group just killed his older brother.  Adult prismatic dragon, CR 39, AC 64..... *THOINK*  *THOINK*  *THOINK*  *THOINK*,  4 well placed arrows up that dragon's arse....

I guess that last attack IS important afterall......


----------



## Vaxalon

What I would like to know is how this character would phrase the wish to achieve the metagame result.


----------



## Will

Let's see, magic that affects BAB...

Tenser's Transformation (+1 BAB per 2 caster levels, among other things, which can grant extra attacks)
Divine Power (BAB as that of a fighter of your total level)

So there are at least in game things you can point to and say 'I want something like that'.

It's not hard to imagine a Wish phrased as 'I want to be better in combat'.

Consider +1 Strength. It grants something like +.5 melee attacks (0 or 1, depending), and +1 damage.
+1 BAB grants +1 on melee and ranged, and an extra attack. A little more powerful... maybe require two wishes, or some extra 'oomph'.

As for changing classes, given that magic already can play with class effects (Two spells mentioned above, frex), it wouldn't be hard to imagine requesting 'I wish I was more knowledgeable in military arts than magical arts', or even 'I wish I had the benefit of a year of combat training rather than the year I spent studying magic.'

Sum 'balance' effect: Loss of 5k XP for being effectively the same rough power of character.

That _really_ seems like a nonissue to me. 5k is a lot to pay to rearrange a character.

As for justification... the game mechanics are there to serve the game. If I go into a game expecting one thing and getting another, I think adjusting things are warranted.

If I want a quick and nimble forest fighter and went with ranger, maybe I discover down the road that it's _nothing_ like I wanted. I could either throw out my concept and rework it around the character, get rid of the character and bring in a new one, or rewrite the character as, perhaps, a Rog/Ftr.

Again, other than letting the game progress smoothly, I don't see the problem. I mean, if the game is resting on the fact the character is a ranger, changing the class would screw things up. OTOH, I imagine that if the player was startled or dismayed by how rangers feel in 3e, the DM has failed to communicate what's going on.

-=Will


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## jontherev

rushlight said:
			
		

> *"I have yet to see anyone reply to myself and several other posters who have asked how in the world one could word a wish without metagaming in order to gain a bab +1."
> 
> Then you apparently didn't read my last post.  It read:
> 
> "As long as I didn't have a GM who was just going to hose me because I was making a Wish that wasn't on the approved list I'd word it this way:
> 
> I Wish I my innate ability to fight was better so that I would be good enough to get more strikes in during combat.
> 
> Now, sure you could say that this gives you some sort of additional bonus to attack as opposed to BAB, but BAB is the only "innate" attacking ability which doesn't change with weapon, circumstance, or method of attack (ranged vs melee).
> 
> Besides, you COULD just reward the Wish "I Wish I was smarter!" with an extra skill point as opposed to the +1 to INT. Obviously the INT bonus is the one sought, just like the BAB bonus is the one sought in tthe previous Wish."
> 
> I think that would cover it right nicely.*



  Actually, yes, I missed your last post, amidst the flames in this thread.  But now that I read it, it wouldn't have changed my post.  BAB is definitely NOT an innate bonus.  BAB comes from the training from your class.  If it was innate, then some wizards would get the bab as a fighter, simply because they were "born" with an innate fighting ability.

Also, I am rather lenient when it comes to wish, so please don't lump me into some category as a DM trying to hose you.  I would allow wishing for feats, as long as you have the prereq., it makes sense for your pc, AND you word it somewhat well.  The fact is, I simply disagree with you.

Your last point is lost on me.  3E defines that INT increases your skill points, I'll give you that.  But personally, I would not screw over a player like this, by being sly and telling him he suddenly knows how to decipher scripts slightly better...but over all he doesn't feel any smarter.  I'm not that strict.  I just think wishing for bab smells like metagaming.  So far, no one has even come close to changing my mind on that issue.

As for your wish above, I would probably give you a +1 unnamed or insight bonus to all attacks.  After all, the more often you hit, the more strikes you get in.  Quite fair I think, considering Weapon Focus only gives +1 to attack with ONE weapon.  However, I'd probably do something to balance this out, like alter your skin color or something humourous like that.


----------



## kreynolds

rushlight said:
			
		

> *As for +1 BAB being unbalanced, would you mind explaining how gaining an attack that will miss 95% (or more) of the time when fighting balanced CR monsters is unbalanced?  Apparently I missed that point.  Maybe you roll more natural 20s that usual or something... *




Tell you what. If you wanna whip up a chart that details a cheaper cost for purchasing a feat based on how crappy your BAB is, go for it. That's basically what you wanna do, and it's a bad idea. Look at it like this:

If your BAB is +9/+4, then yeah, an additional +1 technically isn't a big deal, right? After all, if would only net you +10/+5, which is still only two attacks. However, if your BAB is already +10/+5, well now, an additional +1 is a much bigger deal, as it nets you +11/+6/+1. Three attacks for the same cost. Now, you get yet another +1 increase, and that will net you +12/+7/+2. Technically, not a big deal, right? Wrong. With each increase, every single one of your attacks is improved upon. Oh sure, your last crappy +2 attack is still crappy, even if increased again, but even if you have three attacks per round, and your last attack is only at +2, then the cost should be low. However, that +1 BAB increase doesn't just increase your last attack. It increases your primary as well, which is now +13.

Your argument of a small cost for a small increase doesn't sit well with me, primarly because the benefit of the +1 increase, though pretty small on the low end (last attack), it's really damn good on the high end (first attack). Remember, your fast attack is what's important. That's the one that counts. That's the one that makes the difference. The rest are just icing on the cake. But the power of an increase in your BAB isn't about getting that extra attack, or even improving you last attack. That increase is *all* about improving your first attack, so that your chances of missing are almost nil.



			
				rushlight said:
			
		

> *Oh, and I'll quote how I like.  If you are down to attacking my posting style (or perhaps you'll start with grammer and spelling next) then I suppose we should just end this. *




First of all, I likely won't poke you about your grammer or spelling because I often make those mistakes myself. When I do poke someone about it, which I haven't with you, it's in jest, and obviously so. When I'm serious, it's because somebody's post was about as readable as a preschooler's.

Secondly, I wasn't attacking your posting style. I was just pointing out that your posting style is irritating as hell to read. The system is there to help make your posts readable. I was just hoping that you would use it. It really does make it easier to read.



			
				rushlight said:
			
		

> *If you've got no more specific points related to the conversation, just say so. *




I believe I just added to the conversation, and did so in my previous post as well. Disappointed?


----------



## apsuman

Against better judgement, I am going to post again.

First, "The question can you increase your BAB?"

I believe the answer is no.  I believe that wishes are powerful and can do more than listed in the description.  I believe this would be beyond the power of a wish.  Further I belive that most other players are on this side with me (although I am wrong a lot).

Also, if adding it is not really going to amke that much of a difference, then not adding it should also not make that much of a difference.  Those in favor of allowing a wish (or something) to accomplish this are advocating a large and significant change to the system, the burden is on them to advance their case, not for use (on the other side) to copitulate.

Adding +1 to BAB is big, not only does it give you extra attacks, it makes the existing attacks better.  So that +1 misses 95% of the time, the first second, and third all hit 5% more of the time.  Also, even if at level 41 a +67 misses 95% of the time, you can have a wicked empowered cats grace offering you a +30 to your DEX for an additonal +15 to hit and you still eft out other epic bonuses available.

The fact that protagonists are still posting means they are still trying to get some type of approval from the members of this board.  Give it up use rule zero -- we will never know.

I am not trying to be the great compromiser, but I offered two solutions and nobody flamed me and nobody thanked me, basically I thought they were ignored.

*First[\B] calculate BAB fractionally, while not in the rules, I think this is the least offensive way to achieve your ends.  It also might not work.

Second[\B], I offered a feat that allows characters to gain the extra attack one having one less BAB than required.  I like this as it requires the character to spend a feat and does not essentially punish every other character by not giving them something.

g!*


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## kreynolds

apsuman said:
			
		

> *I am not trying to be the great compromiser, but I offered two solutions and nobody flamed me and nobody thanked me, basically I thought they were ignored. *




I didn't ignore your suggestions. No offense, but I just didn't find them appealing. I figured, why tell you that I don't like them if I don't also offer a way to make them better. Makes sense, right? 

The first one might work though. I'm just not all fired up to find out.


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## apsuman

kreynolds said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I didn't ignore your suggestions. No offense, but I just didn't find them appealing. I figured, why tell you that I don't like them if I don't also offer a way to make them better. Makes sense, right?
> 
> The first one might work though. I'm just not all fired up to find out. *




Fair enough, but there is an awful lot of venom being thrown around in this thread.  I thought I had a good idea.

Also, I think I am still a bit peeved because I still do not know the levels this character chose, and I think I asked twice.  I just hate being ignored.

g!


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## kreynolds

apsuman said:
			
		

> *Fair enough, but there is an awful lot of venom being thrown around in this thread. *




True. I can tell you where my venom, if you can even call it that, which I don't think it can be, comes from. You know those kids in the grocery stores that I like to mention? I hate those kids.



			
				apsuman said:
			
		

> *I thought I had a good idea. *




Hey, it might be. My custom magic items work great in my games, but nobody here uses them. Does that mean they were a bad idea? No necessarily. 



			
				apsuman said:
			
		

> *Also, I think I am still a bit peeved because I still do not know the levels this character chose, and I think I asked twice.  I just hate being ignored. *




I hear ya'.


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## Crothian

apsuman said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Fair enough, but there is an awful lot of venom being thrown around in this thread.  I thought I had a good idea.
> 
> Also, I think I am still a bit peeved because I still do not know the levels this character chose, and I think I asked twice.  I just hate being ignored.
> 
> g! *




This is an arguement, facts have no reason for being here.   

I'll second the need for seeing what the character in question is.  While I'm against the idea in general, I will admit that this is one of the many situations that really depends on the circumstances.


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## fuindordm

There was more than one person, myself included, who posted responses along the lines of "This might be permissible, and doesn't sound too unbalancing."  I think we just got swamped.

I honestly don't understand why people feel the need to post when they aren't saying anything new. It just makes it harder to develop whatever idea has been proposed.  If you want to have an argument, why not do it privately so that other voices can be heard?

Anyway, I too would like to see the character in question.  There are plenty of ways to give a character +1 BAB without being unbalancing.  Simply insisting on "the rules say this" is not productive, is not interesting, and doesn't help those who are intrigued by the situation and would like to hash it out.

The question is not, "Should this be allowed?", because D&D is designed to be open-ended.  There are several examples of spells and magic which break rules (for example, the Hammer of Thunderbolts allows enhancement bonuses on strength to stack) while leaving vague the exact mechanisms by which these rules are broken.  This is what the DM is for, and just because the DM allows an exception to occur doesn't mean that they're stretching the rules of the game beyond the breaking point.

The appropriate question is "What should this cost the player?" Let's think of creative ways to give the player what they want, and then let the player decide whether the price is worth it.  Isn't this more fun to discuss?

For example:

1) Allow a wish to do it.  The price is 5000xp.
2) Allow a wish to swap a mage level with a fighter level. The price is 5000xp plus the reduction in magical power.
3) Allow a wish to do it, but make the player aware that this is beyond the normal scope of a wish and there may be unforseen consequences. The price is 5000xp plus whatever the DM sees fit to impose, but the player doesn't know beforehand what the Monkey's Paw will be.
4) The wish will create some lesser version of Tenser's Transformation and make it permanent. Cost is 5000xp, plus more xp for the permanency effect.  In addition, the BAB might be dispelled in the future.
5) Allow the character to level up in their humanoid "monster class", if they are a monster or wish to become one.
6) Allow the character to invest an entire level's worth of XP in gaining +1 BAB but no other special abilities.

Some of you may think that all of these options are unbalancing and shouldn't be allowed.  If so, I hope you will keep it to yourself in the interests of cultivating a more interesting discussion.

So let's see that character, and let's see some other ideas!

--Ben


----------



## kreynolds

fuindordm said:
			
		

> *If you want to have an argument, why not do it privately so that other voices can be heard? *




Oh, right. I forgot about the #0 rule of messageboards, "If you disagree, don't respond".


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## Henry

Ignoring the nasty feelings and the whole "you are kowtowing to a whiner" arguments - I have one question:

Would those who vehemently deny this player the chance to get his BAB, have had no argument if he had legitimately worked his way up with the requisite number of classes to get his extra attack?

The answer is is yes. There would be no argument if he legitimately had that level of Ranger, instead of wizard, or whatever.

Let the poor schmuck change one level of wizard for Ranger, or whatever is required. What he is gaining in BAB he is losing in wizard power. He might get that power back later at 21st level, but it is no different from the player who chose the correct classes to get this benefit in the first place.

If the other players have no qualms, offer him the option to exchange one of his wizard levels (and MAKE HIM RETROACTIVELY WORK ON ALL SKILLS, FEATS, ETC. WHEN DOING THIS) for ranger levels, and then move on. In the scheme of a two-year campaign, with all the fun and enjoyment that has been had previously, it is not that big of a ****ing deal.

I will NEVER again give a player grief over a poor choice in character abilities, especially when it doesn't change the original character concept. I learned that lesson the hard way over years of gaming.


----------



## kreynolds

Henry said:
			
		

> *Let the poor schmuck change one level of wizard for Ranger, or whatever is required. *




This was suggested waaaayyyyyyy back in the thread. It's definately a possiblity, and one that I probably wouldn't have much problem with. I could justify it in-game by just level draining the poor sod, then he can pick up whatever new class he wants.


----------



## Crothian

kreynolds said:
			
		

> *
> 
> This was suggested waaaayyyyyyy back in the thread. It's definately a possiblity, and one that I probably wouldn't have much problem with. I could justify it in-game by just level draining the poor sod, then he can pick up whatever new class he wants. *




Well, it might require the loss of 2 or more levels.  If he's an even level mage the loss of a a level will reduce his BAB, so he needs to lose two levels.  If he's trying to lose levels with cleric BAB progression he might have to lose up to 4 levels before it makes a difference.  

Personally, I have no problem him loosing levels and then eranin them back.  To just switch out the levels I'd require some quest so there is an in game reason for the change happening.


----------



## Trionan

Izod said:


> one of my party members is level 20 and is one point away from having 4 normal attacks.  He asked me if I knew of any way to get one more point...  because once you get to epic levels your BAB never goes up.  He sugested using a wish to change one of his wiz levels for a ranger level.  BTW he is an arcane archer by trade.  also is it posiable to get an iten that would rais your BAB by one.  this doesn't seen too powerful an item but I would like to know what you think.




I didnt read all 6 pages of this but I did find the attached chart in the Epic handbook. Epic Attack Bonus is essentially Epic BAB.


----------



## Azuresun

Trionan said:


> I didnt read all 6 pages of this




You also didn't read the post date stamps!


----------



## CapnZapp

I like it. Not only did he perform a high level necromancy (18 years!), he took the effort to dig up an old PDF and copy out a table from it. The suave nonchalance is just the icing on the cake.


----------



## RangerWickett

I'm not going to read the whole thread, but did no one suggest getting killed and reincarnated until he become a bugbear? They get a racial BAB.


----------



## CapnZapp

RangerWickett said:


> I'm not going to read the whole thread, but



Your thread resurrection was 4 hours. A good start but you can do better


----------



## TwoSix

CapnZapp said:


> Your thread resurrection was 4 hours. A good start but you can do better



RemindMe!  August 17, 2040.


----------



## (Psi)SeveredHead

CapnZapp said:


> I like it. Not only did he perform a high level necromancy (18 years!), he took the effort to dig up an old PDF and copy out a table from it. The suave nonchalance is just the icing on the cake.




I saw a thread resurrection like this yesterday, only 15 years (almost old enough to drive). This thread appears to be old enough to vote.


----------



## Puggins

I mean, you can always necro one intentionally jsut for kicks, but eighteen years might be some kind of record.  We're talking 3.0 and a book I bought in Waldenbooks in a mall that's been closed for a decade (the mall, not the bookstore, which got closed long before that).  My daughter's a senior in high school and she's younger than this thread.  This is awesome!


----------



## glass

Trionan said:


> I didnt read all 6 pages of this but I did find the attached chart in the Epic handbook. Epic Attack Bonus is essentially Epic BAB.



I imagine it is of limited use to the original poster who has presumably moved on, but for posterity EAB explicitly does not grant and extra attacks, which is what the OP was after. Personally, in those rare occasions when I have used 3.P character of above 20th level, I have ruled it as the _best_ 20 levels not the _first_ 20 levels. Which is a change from the ELH, but far from the only one....

BTW, does anyone know why this thread is in the Pathfinder & Starfinder forum and flagged PF1? Pathfinder did not even exist in 2002.

_
glass.


----------



## TwoSix

Puggins said:


> I mean, you can always necro one intentionally jsut for kicks, but eighteen years might be some kind of record.  We're talking 3.0 and a book I bought in Waldenbooks in a mall that's been closed for a decade (the mall, not the bookstore, which got closed long before that).  My daughter's a senior in high school and she's younger than this thread.  This is awesome!



It's pretty much an untouchable record, since the oldest posts here date back to 2002.


----------

