# Incivility on the forums.



## MerricB (Aug 6, 2005)

Please see this thread:
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=142875

Please look at Phoenix's and (especially) Waldorf's responses.

I spend a lot of time trying to find out things about what's coming up from Wizards and sharing it with the rest of you. I also like most of the products that Wizards make. Not all, but most.

More and more, I feel that this is a crime on ENworld.

I don't mind people disagreeing with me. I do mind it when people are rude, and that is happening more and more. Because I try to hold to the line of no personal attacks, I can't respond.

I am extremely frustrated by this.

Yours sincerely,
Merric Blackman


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## Morrus (Aug 6, 2005)

Err, Merric, they're not referring to you!  They're referring to the products.


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## MerricB (Aug 6, 2005)

I know that, Morrus - but that's not how it comes across.


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## Morrus (Aug 6, 2005)

Well, if you know it, surely it does come across that way.  Otherwise, how would you know it? 

Sorry - pedantry aside, I really don't think those people were, or intended to be, rude to you.  They're merely expressing their opinion of the products.  With luck, they'll see this thread and confirm that!


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## IronWolf (Aug 6, 2005)

Hey Merric!  I always appreciate the information you bring to the board about WotC, always much better than press releases and such with a more personal insight and touch.  I wouldn't let either of those two people get you down, when I read the thread I only thought they were bored with the upcoming WotC products, by no means slamming you.

Some people just don't like the big company, whether it be in the RPG market, computer market, software market, retail market, etc.  Anytime one posts in favor or information about any of those they are bound to see the anti-big company person post something in a thread echoing their feelings.

In either case, try not to miss the positive comments in the threads you start regarding WotC.    You are our official optimist after all!


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## MerricB (Aug 6, 2005)

I'm sure I'm frustrated at least partly because of other things that have happened; this was just the trigger for a (short) rant.

(oh, and Australia's dismal showing in the 2nd Ashes Test so far...)

See my reaction to Mercule's post, who does say "Meh!", but with a lot more actual content and commentary.


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## Umbran (Aug 6, 2005)

Hm.  Those were uncivil?  Highly disagreeing, perhaps, but uncivil?  Not one name called, or foul word, or questioning the intelligence (or parentage) of the speaker.  While it's clear they don't agree, I don't see what wasn't civil about it.  

But then, I grew up near New York City - where the state bird is a hand gesture.


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## Poster Bard (Aug 6, 2005)

MerricB said:
			
		

> I am extremely frustrated by this.





Don't be.


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## William Ronald (Aug 8, 2005)

Merric, don't let this drag you down.  I did not see the comments as personal, but typical of something I see at a few other sites -- disdain.   I think the disdain was for the products, not for you.  Just remember that some people will never be satisfied. 

Of course, people will have different opinions.  However, I think Mercule's comments at least gave me some understanding of the reasoning behind his position as opposed to some other comments in the thread.

As for civility, I think that EN World sometimes suffers bouts of incivility every few months.  I think we have to remember that when we post, that the person we disagree with is a human being like ourselves -- with distinct opinions, beliefs, and feelings.  I believe that if you want respect, you should give it in turn.  (I would argue that those who are uncivil lessen themselves, and do themselves a disservice by not considering the opinions of others.  I have gained insights from many different sorts of gamers on these boards.  So, I think that while everyone has a right to an opinion, an informed and articulate opinion at least helps me understand other people.  As a corollary, I know of no one on these boards who should not be treated with the respect that I wish for myself. Maybe Waldorf and Phoenix have something important to say, but failed to fully articulate their opinion.)


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## diaglo (Aug 8, 2005)

yeah, i think Waldorf and Phoenix basically don't see anything in the new products which would interest them.

it is a comment just like any of the other ones. positive or negative. i don't think they are directed at you personally MerricB


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## Henry (Aug 8, 2005)

Merric, I'd rather have you bringing that stuff to my attention (with the positive light that you put on it) than someone who might bring it up negatively and not tell all the facts surrounding it. I'd rather hear, _"Guess what? WotC's [putting out this product, which has X, Y, and Z!"_ than  someone saying, _"have you heard that WotC's putting out this product? Sounds like total crap, and I bet it'll flop!"_

Admittedly, none of those products sound like they';re gonna thrill me, either, but it's nice to know about 'em! I'm more interested in what Charles had to say about the Greyhawk situation, myself, and had I not read that, I wouldn't have heard it, or worse, I'd have heard someone's filtered version of it more likely.


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## Joshua Randall (Aug 8, 2005)

Yo, Merric, I got your back. Meet me out front after school and we'll lay the smack down on these playa-haters.

As my dad used to say: _illegitimus non carborundum _ -- don't let the b*astards grind you down. Just laught it off or ignore them (or even Ignore them, if you know what I mean) and move on.


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## Arnwyn (Aug 8, 2005)

I saw nothing uncivil in the linked post.


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## Crothian (Aug 8, 2005)

Merric, you do good work.  I'd hate to see a few little problems like this cause you to stop.  I very much appriciate the informaiton you bring over here abotu what Wizards is doing.


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## DungeonmasterCal (Aug 8, 2005)

Heck...if a WotC product comes out and I DON'T hear from Merric, I think something's wrong.  I've come to expect and rely on Merric's views on products!


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## diaglo (Aug 8, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> Merric, you do good work.  I'd hate to see a few little problems like this cause you to stop.  I very much appriciate the informaiton you bring over here abotu what Wizards is doing.



i could let you know what WotC is doing if Merric doesn't want to anymore.


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## Varianor Abroad (Aug 8, 2005)

While I don't think it was personally aimed at Merric, I do think that those comments were unnecessary and borderline uncivil. Should you guys be politeness cops too? I would hate for it to go to that level. But it would certainly behoove people to keep their mouths shut and fingers off their keyboards if they have nothing nice to say.


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## Turjan (Aug 8, 2005)

diaglo said:
			
		

> i could let you know what WotC is doing if Merric doesn't want to anymore.



I'd bet the tenor would change quite a bit !

@Merric: I like your announcements. It's always interesting to hear what WotC are up to, and that's why I appreciate those posts. I'm pretty sure that I don't like a product if you like it and that I like a book if you find it uninteresting, but that's also valuable information for me . Don't let your optimism slip !


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## Arnwyn (Aug 9, 2005)

Varianor Abroad said:
			
		

> But it would certainly behoove people to keep their mouths shut and fingers off their keyboards if they have nothing nice to say.



I think you meant to say "constructive", as opposed to "nice". At least, I sure hope you did.


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## Varianor Abroad (Aug 9, 2005)

Given comments like "I saw nothing uncivil in the linked post." then yeah, I meant nice. But I would certainly accept "constructive" as well. Posting a snore comment is hardly constructive or nice.


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## the Jester (Aug 9, 2005)

Just remember, Merric- there are a lot of us that really appreciate your reviews.  Even if I don't always post to your threads, I enjoy your scoopin'.

It's almost like I'm out for ice cream...


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## The_Universe (Aug 9, 2005)

I dig the Wizards announcements, and I'm glad you put them there. Since I didn't have anything to say other than "neat!" I chose not to post, but the updates are definitely appreciated!


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## JoeBlank (Aug 9, 2005)

Another "Me too!" post in appreciation of Merric. I try to say it whenever I get the chance, but I fall down on the job sometimes. 

The scoops you provide from WotC's site, as well as the sites of game creators and otherwise, are very helpful and informative. I do not have the time or the patience to dig thru all of those sites, and I certainly appreciate you sharing with us when you come across an item of interest.

Keep up the good work, Merric!


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## William Ronald (Aug 10, 2005)

I think that one of the problems that crop up on this board is a bit of snarkiness.  I have no problem with criticism of a product or a view. However, I think that such comments should at least give a reason why someone has an opinion.  Otherwise, it is hard to have a dialogue with someone who just expresses disapproval but does not explain it.  For example, if someone says a new product stinks, then I know they dislike the product.  However, it does not tell me _why_ the poster dislikes the product.

Mind you, I have seen a lot worse elsewhere.  Generally, I think we treat each other with respect on the boards.  There is a small minority of posters who may dislike some people on the boards, or act rudely.  I really think they diminish themselves by doing so.  (We usually have some incivility.  I consider making comments designed to shut a thread down to be an extreme form of rudeness.)

Merric, keep up the good work.


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## MerricB (Aug 10, 2005)

Thank you very much, everyone, for your support. It means a lot to me.

(Now, here's hoping the DMG2 has _finally_ arrived in Ballarat and I have the money to buy it come Friday...)

Be reassured by the fact that I don't intend to give up my newshound role any time soon.   Hey, I've just got mentioned in the Stormwrack designer interview!

Cheers!


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## diaglo (Aug 10, 2005)

MerricB said:
			
		

> (Now, here's hoping the DMG2 has _finally_ arrived in Ballarat and I have the money to buy it come Friday...)



definitely pick it up when it comes your way. not exactly new material. but something that should have been included in the DMG when the new edition was released.

even older DMs can get a kick out of it.


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## the Jester (Aug 11, 2005)

diaglo said:
			
		

> definitely pick it up when it comes your way...even older DMs can get a kick out of it.




Wow, high praise considering the source!


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## Steverooo (Aug 11, 2005)

What?!?  Diaglo actually _liked_ something 3.5e?!?


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## Kelleris (Aug 11, 2005)

*(A little late...)*

Merric, I just want to pipe up and say I enjoy your posts too.  In addition to being read-worthy for the sheer information content, I appreciate the tone of your scoops.  They go down easy, as it were.  A lot of other posters make me want to say something nasty or combative even when they're being constructive.

Vive le optimist!


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## The Thayan Menace (Aug 11, 2005)

*Fight the Power*



			
				arnwyn said:
			
		

> I saw nothing uncivil in the linked post.



Agreed ....

Frankly, these statements aren't personal attacks; they're simply expressions of frustration at some of the drivel WotC has produced in recent months.

I say more power to them, if you ask me .... Customer complaints encourage better products.


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## Mark CMG (Aug 13, 2005)

Kelleris said:
			
		

> A lot of other posters make me want to say something nasty or combative even when they're being constructive.





I don't like that guy either.  He is a stinker.


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## Kelleris (Aug 13, 2005)

Mark CMG said:
			
		

> I don't like that guy either.  He is a stinker.




No kidding.  Off with his head, I say!


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## Knight Otu (Aug 13, 2005)

The Thayan Menace said:
			
		

> Customer complaints encourage better products.



If they are constructive, maybe. A "zzzz" or a "going to gouge my eyes out" is in no way constructive.
The message such posts send is "Stop publishing anything" in various degrees of hostility, and doesn't give the publisher anything useful to work on. The publisher may see those and say "Ok, they don't like the current schedule, and don't say what they'd rather see. Others, over there, like part of it, and voice their concern on the other part. I'll be over there listening what we might do better."


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## MerricB (Aug 13, 2005)

They are rude comments.

Look, they're not personal attacks as such (which is why I didn't just report bad posts), but they're rude and uncivil.

If Morrus were to announce the winners of the Ennies, and the response was "Gouge my eyes out", or "Zzzzzz", would you think that was fine?


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## ColonelHardisson (Aug 13, 2005)

MerricB said:
			
		

> They are rude comments.
> 
> Look, they're not personal attacks as such (which is why I didn't just report bad posts), but they're rude and uncivil.
> 
> If Morrus were to announce the winners of the Ennies, and the response was "Gouge my eyes out", or "Zzzzzz", would you think that was fine?




You do good work valued by many, so I'd just ignore such nonsense, Merric. There always has to be some "hipper than thou" poster who feels the need to threadcrap. It wouldn't be the internet without 'em.


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## Cyberzombie (Aug 14, 2005)

Bah.  I've made *compiments* that were more offensive than that.

If you expect everyone in a community this size to agree that things you think are cool are cool, you are living in a dream world.


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## The Thayan Menace (Aug 14, 2005)

*Touché*



			
				Cyberzombie said:
			
		

> If you expect everyone in a community this size to agree that things you think are cool are cool, you are living in a dream world.



Good point .... I also applaud your creative use of inserted imagery.     ​


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## Psionicist (Aug 15, 2005)

MerricB said:
			
		

> They are rude comments.




I think what's considered rude varies greatly between individuals, subcultures and countries. I've said some very rude things in the past. Was I aware of it? Nope. I have a disclaimer in my signature now, and it helps a little. 

It might be the same with Phoenix and Waldorf. Were they rude? Perhaps, if you think so. Were they _intentionally_ rude? Probably not. 

Do you know anyone in real life who communicate more with his body language than his voice? Have you noticed these people often use the body for emotions, and voice for facts (that is everything you cannot "say" with your body)? Imagine what'd happen if you spoke to this person and his body suddenly disappeared. Then his voice changed to text. Facts are harsh. 

My point is probably the usual, people are different.

Cheers


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## MerricB (Aug 15, 2005)

One thing I must emphasize, because it seems the point has been lost on Cyberzombie: I don't by any means expect people to always agree with me.

However, I do expect that people to be courteous. 

"I think I'm going to gouge my eyes out with boredom...."

What does that tell me? That it isn't worth posting on ENworld? That's right.


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## Crothian (Aug 15, 2005)

No, it tells you some people are just rude.  I've had a few of my threads derailed and some posters even continued to do it after I asked them to stop.


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## MerricB (Aug 15, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> No, it tells you some people are just rude.  I've had a few of my threads derailed and some posters even continued to do it after I asked them to stop.




Well, yes. It just depends how often it happens. (Two utter idiots in a row early in a thread was not good).

Of course, I can _rationally_ see that my reaction is _emotional_, but that doesn't help that much.

I know there are options for blocking people's posts from view - is there a reverse that can be done? Can I block specific people from seeing my posts?

Cheers!


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## johnsemlak (Aug 15, 2005)

MerricB said:
			
		

> Well, yes. It just depends how often it happens. (Two utter idiots in a row early in a thread was not good).
> 
> Of course, I can _rationally_ see that my reaction is _emotional_, but that doesn't help that much.
> 
> ...




What was that you said, I can't see it.  

OK, more seriously...

Merric, I'll just add to the chorus of people who immensely appreciate your posting of scoops, as well as your info on minis (last year I finally broke down and started to splurge into minis), and your insights in general.  I think I'm not alone in saying that when I see a thread started by *MerricB*, I click it!

I really hope you don't let a few posters who perhaps didn't think carefully how their post would be understood by potentially hundreds of people get you down.  After looking at the thread I understand where you're coming from, though.


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## Morrus (Aug 15, 2005)

MerricB said:
			
		

> If Morrus were to announce the winners of the Ennies, and the response was "Gouge my eyes out", or "Zzzzzz", would you think that was fine?




Oh, I've had far worse, I assure you!


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## Henry (Aug 15, 2005)

Morrus said:
			
		

> Oh, I've had far worse, I assure you!




We've come a long way, baby... 

Rude (perhaps a better word would be "brass" or "brazen") comments I can live with, because I've just learned to tune them out; everyone's got an opinion, and some people express it more directly than others. Even if someone had a "sleeper" response to the ENnies winners, I'd be fine with it, because if I corrected everyone who didn't phrase themselves tactfully, I'd have a very bad day, and be less likely to be tactful myself.  

Truthfully? The only thing I'd take arms about is if someone made accusations of cheating, bribery, collusion, etc. etc. If someone just said, _"Monte Cook's Venture Brothers supplement won? BLECH! There's no accounting for taste..."_ Then I'd mark them down mentally as rude and crude, and just move on.


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## ColonelHardisson (Aug 16, 2005)

MerricB said:
			
		

> One thing I must emphasize, because it seems the point has been lost on Cyberzombie: I don't by any means expect people to always agree with me.




Oh, don't worry about CZ; he's just grouchy because Nothingland is down for a while...


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## MerricB (Aug 16, 2005)

Cheers!


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## Clint (Aug 16, 2005)

MerricB said:
			
		

> Well, yes. It just depends how often it happens. (Two utter idiots in a row early in a thread was not good).



Shouldn't someone complaining about rude posting work especially hard to avoid making personal attacks regarding the subjects of the complaint?


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## Crothian (Aug 16, 2005)

Clint said:
			
		

> Shouldn't someone complaining about rude posting work especially hard to avoid making personal attacks regarding the subjects of the complaint?




No, he wasn't calling people names just making a point and using easily understood descriptive words to make his point easily understood.


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## S'mon (Aug 16, 2005)

*query re policy on 'bigwigs'*

wrong place


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## The Thayan Menace (Aug 16, 2005)

*Words From a Master ....*



			
				MerricB said:
			
		

> Two utter idiots in a row early in a thread was not good.









"Incivility is a hell of a drug ...."​


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## MerricB (Aug 16, 2005)

In general, when I start getting rude, I'm getting *extremely* frustrated. 

Yes, my comments above about "utter idiots" were out of line and I apologise for them.


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## The Thayan Menace (Aug 16, 2005)

*Bulletin Board Street Knowledge*



			
				MerricB said:
			
		

> Yes, my comments above about "utter idiots" were out of line and I apologise for them.



Dude, although I don't usually agree with your unbridled optimism, you do good work. Stand up for your vision and don't let some minor internet faux pas ruin your day. Either ignore the offenders or sting them with a good-natured zinger ... but never just complain. People like the ones you are criticizing will see it for weakness and exploit it ... in fact, you are lucky they haven't wandered across this thread yet.


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## Belen (Aug 18, 2005)

Merric I love having you around ENWorld.  You know where to find info that is hard to find.  Sometimes you do come off as being a bit too enamored of WOTC, but I like hearing what you have to say.

Keep it up.


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## Cyberzombie (Aug 20, 2005)

ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> Oh, don't worry about CZ; he's just grouchy because Nothingland is down for a while...



 I'm grouchy all the time.


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## ColonelHardisson (Aug 20, 2005)

Cyberzombie said:
			
		

> I'm grouchy all the time.




...well...I can't really dispute that...


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## Cyberzombie (Aug 21, 2005)

ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> ...well...I can't really dispute that...



 Good.  I'll only kick you in the crotch *once* now.


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