# E6: The Game Inside D&D



## Ry

There is an even newer version of E6 here.  Please post to that thread instead of this one.

*What is E6?*

Earlier this year EN World engaged in a great discussion where it was put forward that D&D has four distinct quartiles of play, each of which suited some groups better than others:

Levels 1-5: Gritty fantasy
Levels 6-10: Heroic fantasy
Levels 11-15: Wuxia
Levels 16-20: Superheroes

E6 is a game about those first 2 quartiles, and as a result, it has fewer rules, a low-magic flavor, and it is quick and easy to prepare.  I have playtested the system extensively with my crew, and it works as intended.  Previous discussion indicated that this approach has some appeal for others, so I've revised it here.

E6 was inspired by the article “Gandalf was a Fifth-Level Magic User” from Dragon magazine issue #5.

Features of E6:
Fast play
Low magic
Easy to prepare
It’s still D&D and everyone knows how to play.

*E6’s Rule Change:*

Character progression from level 1 to level 6 is as per D&D. Upon attaining 6th level, for each 5000 experience a character gains, they earn a new feat. 
Feats with unattainable prerequisites under this system remain unattainable.

*Frequently Asked Questions*

_Do you allow feats from outside the core rulebooks?_
Yes.  Absolutely.  Having a diverse and interesting selection of feats is how characters can grow.  I recommend allowing all WotC 3.5 books as sources, and Phil Reed’s Book of Unusual Feats is another excellent source.

_In E6, do attacks, spells, saves, etc. improve after level 6?_
They can be improved, but only through feats.  A character does not gain any more levels once they have reached level 6.  Characters who have reached level 6 have proven themselves; but this extremely rapid growth does not go on forever.  Instead, they learn new techniques or become more versatile.

_Does E6 change the stacking rules?  For example, can I take Weapon Focus twice and have it stack?_
The stacking rules remain the same as in standard D&D.  Look to other feats to provide exciting and new combat options.

_I allow races with level adjustments, but if there are only 6 levels, how do they work?_
If you use races with a level adjustment, the 6th level cap is a big issue. Use the point buy rules in the DMG as follows:
LA  Point buy
+0  32
+1  25
+2  18
+3  10
+4  00

_That seems close, but isn’t there room for abuse in situation X?_
Many LA races can be spun into a small loss or a small gain over the point buy. Them's, as it were, the breaks. The system above doesn't solve LA's problems - it just gets closer to doing so for E6's purposes.

_Is there any way to gain stat points in addition to feats?_
In a previous version of E6, players could buy a stat point upgrade by spending XP equal to 500 * the next value. So going from STR 11 to STR 12 was 6000 exp. I didn't include this in the first post because it hasn't seen much use in actual play (a few odd to evens around 10-14 range, that's it).  I think 2 feats would be superior to this rule, so that stats can only be upgraded by +2.  For example:

[sblock=’Ability Feats’]*Ability Training*
You spend time honing one of your Abilities: Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma.
Benefit: Choose one Ability; you qualify for the Ability Advancement feat for that Ability.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times, its effects do not stack.  Each time you take this feat it applies to another ability.

*Ability Advancement*
Your training pays off, and one of your Abilities increases.  
Benefit: Choose one Ability.  You gain a permanent +2 bonus to that ability.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times, its effects do not stack.  Each time you take this feat it applies to another ability.[/sblock]

_I prefer stopping at around 8th level, does that work for this system?_
The system will probably work about as well at 8th level, but note that “Epic 6th” characters do end up being more powerful than regular 6th level characters.  Epic 6th may be what you want for a game that sits at the power level for Level 8, and Epic 8th may cater more closely to Level 10 style play.

_Do you allow Prestige Classes?_
I’d recommend taking the same approach you take in your regular D&D game.  If you allow Prestige Classes there, feel free to allow them here.  Of course, characters capped at 6th level can usually take at most 1 level of a Prestige Class.

_My player wants to play a Tattooed Monk, but now that won’t be available.  What should I do?_
The biggest issue here is what your player wants to do with that character.  Ask him what he wants to do in purely non-mechanical terms, and then talk about what kind of feats he could use to do that.  For example, if the player is just looking for fantastic saves, get him to get serpent, panther, and bear tattoos corresponding to Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, and Great Fortitude.  If he wants one of his tattoos to be “looking out for him” have him take Improved Initiative and Alertness, as his character gets a tattoo of the unseeing eye.


_Why 6th level for the cap?_
My experience in D&D is that at around 6th level the characters are really nicely balanced, both in terms of balance against other classes, and that the CR system is a good guide of difficulty at around this level.  Also, there was an element of setting assumptions; each class is strong enough that they're well defined in their role, but not so strong that lower-level characters don't matter to them any more. 

_With this cap, some combinations are better than others; how do you deal with that?_
I try to make sure that there are appealing feats available for everyone.  For example, I make sure Extra Spell is available to ensure Sorcerers are able to diversify.  

_Do you handle magic items differently in E6?_
Only to coincide with the cap; that is, if for some reason there is a magic item that requires a level higher than 6 to create, then I usually substitute it for something else, unless I’ve placed it there for a reason.  For example, a +4 sword can’t be made by a human wizard, but it could be crafted by a Titan.  And that's a big deal. That's a sword that no mortal can make.

_Can I add my own feats to E6?_
Absolutely; it’s your game, and I recommend adding any feats that you think you would allow in standard D&D.  For feats of your own design, I’d recommend basing them around other abilities that could be gained by level 6.  The reverse of this is also true:  If a class feature is available by 6th level, then you can write some kind of feat chain to that ability.  In the case of very powerful abilities, though, in addition to stringent requirements I'd make at least one "filler" feat, like Ability Training, above.

_How do you clear negative levels?  _
I would allow a feat such as the following, and have some NPCs have it:

[sblock=’Restoration as a Feat’]*New Feat: Restoration*
Prerequisites: 6th level, ability to cast Lesser Restoration, Wisdom 18.
Benefit: You can use Restoration, as the spell (paying the material component), with a casting time of 1 day.[/sblock]

_How do you raise the dead?_
If you want to raise the dead, I would recommend making a feat chain towards that balanced for your campaign.  In my campaign I use an action point mechanic to reduce lethality.

_Class X or Multiclass possibility Y is weak under these rules, what should I do?_
First off, I’d check to make sure X or Y is really a part of your campaign – just to see if it’s worth the effort.  If it is, then I would recommend making a feat that shores up the weak character.

_I like high-magic, high-powered campaigns.  Is E6 for me?_
Probably not.  Just as D&D can’t be all things to all groups, E6 caters to a specific set of tastes.

_I love this idea!  How do I convince my group to switch to E6?_
A lot of players agree that the real sweet spot of D&D is in the level 6-10 range; this system keeps you in that range while still letting your character grow and develop over time.  If they’re worried about challenges later in the campaign, emphasize that the rest of the world is playing by the same rules.  For example, an enemy general might be a renowned fighter, but he still has a Base Attack Bonus of +6.  Once players realize that the world they live in isn't massively stratified, they start really busting out, the way 6th level characters who work together can really bust out.

_Are there any other benefits of E6?_
Here is a summary of what I see as the biggest benefits:
1. Very fast play at every level of the campaign.
2. Focus on planning, not levelling. To defeat the black dragon Zolanderos, the CR 10 terror of Staunwark Island, the heroes will need help, special resources, and information. I want to further encourage party-directed adventuring, and if the heroes want to take on something 4 to 6 CR above them, then that's what they will require.
3. A low magic game that everyone knows how to play.
4. Never a need for meaningless encounters. The players can be involved in a dozen or so major combat scenarios (perhaps more than one encounter each) and have proven themselves and made a major accomplishment. See Lord of the Rings movies, or most fantasy novels.
5. Classic monsters stay classic throughout the campaign; Chimeras and Aboleths start scary, and stay scary. Dragons are always exciting encounters.
6. Even legendary heroes remain mortal; while a 6th level fighter who has taken toughness several times can take on a good mob, he isn't invulnerable. The sorcerer's 6d6 fireballs are phenomenal, but not so powerful that he can destroy a village and not fear retaliation.
7. Quicker prep. Make a 1st, 3rd, 5th, and 6th version of a sorcerer, and now you have a whole sorcerous dragon-cult that can last you through your whole campaign.
8. You can put what you've learned of the rules to good use. It's hard to know every 4th through 9th level spell out there; they're the ones we see the least. But we've seen 0th through 3rd level spells many, many times, and mastery over them is relatively simple.


----------



## Zulgyan

This system is a great general FIX to D&D 3.5 that becomes a real headache at higher levels. 

*One suggestion:* I would make progression up to level 6 slower. Maybe awarding 50% XP or 25% or even less. It would bring much more consistency to a setting where this are the rules of the universe, lol.


----------



## Ry

Hi Zulgyan!  

I've played both ways - both work.  It all depends on how you want to structure your game; do you want a long "forging of the heroes" bit, or is it more of a "sink or swim!" ?


----------



## Aegir

This is really a great idea, actually fairly similar to something I was kicking around as an epic rules replacement, which ultimately functions a little like the old 2E dual-classing system, just without the losing all your abilities until your levels match. But, I'm thinking that idea can pretty much be scrapped now, since this one accomplishes most everything I wanted to do, just needs a few homebrew feats to fill the gaps.

Now, just work on bringing in some of the better ideas from the new Saga Edition rules, and who needs 4E?


----------



## mfrench

*Resolve*

If you don't mind, can you post the Death Flag and resolve rules here so that we don't have to bounce between threads to re-read all of these ideas?  It doesn't need to be in the first post or anything.

Thanks.


----------



## phindar

How fast do you see levelling in the Epic range?  Just going by the xp charts it looks like 6th level characters will earn 5000xp in 5-10 encounters.  On a flight of fancy, lets assume it takes a weekly group six months to reach 6th level (a session a week, four sessions per level), and then they'll be gaining a feat about every 3-4 sessions after that.  After a year of playing in a weekly game (no missed sessions, no sick days because hey, its a fantasy game) a character would probably be 6th level with 6 feats on top of that.  If the game went two years, a character could be 6th level with 18 bonus feats.  

If you were to play a campaign for a couple of years, do you think feat bloat would become a problem?


----------



## the Jester

I really like your system and have been considering trying it out for some time now. I do have one question that has occurred to me, however. 

For characters that have 'topped out' (6th level), how do you award xp? Do you stick to giving them the xp for a 6th-level character per the chart in the DMG? Or do you treat these characters as one level higher per x extra feats? And on the other hand, how do you award xp for 6th level npcs with extra feats? Do you just treat them as a challenge of their normal CR, or do you increase the CR by 1 per x feats as well?

Thanks for the work you've done on this, btw- it's very impressive.


----------



## Ry

mfrench said:
			
		

> If you don't mind, can you post the Death Flag and resolve rules here so that we don't have to bounce between threads to re-read all of these ideas?  It doesn't need to be in the first post or anything.




No problem.  This house rule goes well with E6, and I recommend it.  Note that I updated the chart for how to spend Conviction based on some playtest feedback; it's now cheaper to put your all into an action (roll extra d20s, keeping the highest result) than it is to save face (re-roll a bad roll).

I use Conviction in my game to reduce lethality and make sure that the PCs are the stars of the show.  This rule basically requires that Players Roll All the Dice, which I recommend for all campaigns, Epic 6th level or not. 

*Conviction*

Player Characters have a pool of Conviction, which functions like Action points.  All PCs get 6 Conviction.  Conviction is replenished whenever the party has a night of complete rest.  

Conviction can be used in the following ways:

Cost  Result
  1      Roll an extra d20, keeping the highest*
  2      Re-roll a d20**
  2      Take an extra move-equivalent action @
  3      Take an extra standard action @

* Declare before any roll
** Declare after any roll
@ On your turn only

_When a player spends Conviction, they're saying "Hey, this is important to me.  I want my character to have been the one that pulled this off - or at least, put everything into trying."_

*The Death Flag*
As an Immediate action, a player character can choose to raise his Death Flag and gain 6 Conviction instantly (even if this brings their total Conviction pool above 6).  

When the death flag is raised, the normal rules for death apply.  If the death flag has not been raised, then the character, if killed, is treated as reducing the player character to 1 hit point above death.  The Death Flag can be lowered by spending 5 Conviction.

_When a player raises the Death flag, they're saying "This is worth staking my character's life on."_


----------



## Ry

Aegir said:
			
		

> Now, just work on bringing in some of the better ideas from the new Saga Edition rules, and who needs 4E?




Heh.  Yeah, the one thing I'm quite proud of for E6 is that it works with whatever other house rules you want to use.  That's why I trimmed my Conviction mechanic out of the first post; it's really up to you how you want to tailor your game.


----------



## Ry

the Jester said:
			
		

> For characters that have 'topped out' (6th level), how do you award xp? Do you stick to giving them the xp for a 6th-level character per the chart in the DMG? Or do you treat these characters as one level higher per x extra feats? And on the other hand, how do you award xp for 6th level npcs with extra feats? Do you just treat them as a challenge of their normal CR, or do you increase the CR by 1 per x feats as well?




I was considering doing something like that but never hit on a particularly good way to judge that curve.  In the end, I have gone with 300 * CR defeated, and kept that as my constant.  As for enemies, it depends.  Somewhere between 6th+5 and 6th+10 I start treating them as CR 7, but I've rarely had the PCs up against higher.  What I HAVE done is use templates that up the CR without adding hit dice.  Those can make for some nasty monsters, and they're philosophically good counterpoints for E6 characters.


----------



## Ry

phindar said:
			
		

> If you were to play a campaign for a couple of years, do you think feat bloat would become a problem?




Well, so far, so good, the highest was 6th+12 IMC.  I don't really think feat bloat would become a problem, because it hasn't so far.  But I'm on the lookout in my playtesting.


----------



## Emryys

I'm really liking the look of this... 

Lately I'm a C&C convert, but since I'd like to run games for a wider audience... 

This needs a fancy/shiney pdf!


----------



## Ry

Welcome Emryys!  

I agree this thing needs a fancy / shiny .pdf, but I have little to no talent in that area.  I'd really love to see E6 done up that way; perhaps 2 separate .pdfs

1) E6 advancement rules and extra feats
2) Conviction and the Death Flag (and maybe Raising Stakes, which I haven't included yet but which I'll be playtesting soon)


----------



## Emryys

I'm wondering if the pdf "Buy the numbers" could add flexibility to the costs of buys feats/abilities after 6th Lvl...

I could also make a simple pdf... just need the info listed how you want it in a simple format like word or txt...


----------



## green slime

I was wondering if you had considered making the various class abilities that normally would only come into play after level 6 available as feats?

Consider Druids, for example:
I know there is already an Epic feat "Extra Wildshape" for instance. So in your experience, would you allow a "venom immunity" or "Wild shape:large" feats?


----------



## Aegir

I don't see why you couldn't do that. But without levels (beyond 6th), the difficult part would be setting up requirements.


----------



## kensanata

I like the PDF somebody posted containing the character stuff up to level 6. What I'd be interested in seeing is the list of non-core feats you found to be useful. I don't have any splat books, and I'm assuming there is a small number of essential feats that make this system work. That would save me the time and effort to write two or three interesting feat chains, I think.


----------



## green slime

Another consideration: How did you arrive at the cost of 5000 xp per feat post 6th level?

Or, to put it another way: considering that it took 5000 xp to get from 5th level, to 6th, I'm assuming the cost should likewise increase per feat to 7000 xp per feat, if you stop at level 8, or 9000 xp per feat at 10th level. In order for the actual cost of the feat to be on par with the actual effort required to collect the xp.


----------



## Khuxan

kensanata said:
			
		

> I like the PDF somebody posted containing the character stuff up to level 6.




I produced three texts for Ry20:
Ry20 Player's Handbook zip
Ry20 Classes pdf
Ry20 Feats pdf (Incomplete)

For new feats, I think the most pressing issue is for multiclass casters to get more spellcasting.

*Improved Spell Knowledge*
*Prerequisites:* Character level 6, access to 1st-level spells.
*Benefit:* Choose a spontaneous spellcasting class you have levels in. Your spells known improve as if you were one level higher in that class. This feat cannot improve your effective class level to greater than 6.
*Special:* You can take this feat multiple times. Each time, it improves your spells known by one level, or applies to a new spontaneous casting class.

*Improved Spells Per Day*
*Prerequisites:* Character level 6, access to 1st-level spells.
*Benefit:* Choose a spellcasting class you have levels in. Your spells per day improve as if you were one level higher in that class. This feat cannot improve your effective class level to greater than 6.
*Special:* You can take this feat multiple times. Each time, it improves your spells known by one level, or applies to a new spontaneous casting class.


----------



## Ry

green slime said:
			
		

> Another consideration: How did you arrive at the cost of 5000 xp per feat post 6th level?
> 
> Or, to put it another way: considering that it took 5000 xp to get from 5th level, to 6th, I'm assuming the cost should likewise increase per feat to 7000 xp per feat, if you stop at level 8, or 9000 xp per feat at 10th level. In order for the actual cost of the feat to be on par with the actual effort required to collect the xp.




The way it evolved: Originally, I thought to myself, "If I'm going to give them feats instead of level 7, maybe 2 feats per level would work.  That way they would have this great feeling of advancement without popping the top off the power level."

But in play, the players found it was too fast, and I agreed.  They're pretty crafty fellows, and 3000 xp meant they were getting 2 feats a session sometimes.  There just wasn't time in-game for their characters to grow.

I upped it to 4500 xp, and it was still just a little fast.  5000 xp has been "just right"  - also, you get the added benefit of looking at characters like this:

15k xp = 6th
20k xp = 6th+1
25k xp = 6th+2
30k xp = 6th+3 

and so on.

If I were to stop at 8th, I'd say 7k XP would be a good starting point, but actual play would be the best guide.


----------



## Ry

Thanks Khuxan, those two feats are exactly how I did it in my game.

When we were originally talking about it, my players discussed something like "build up first, then gestalt out" and while I found that was a bit of a rules-beast, doing the same thing with feats is A-OK.


----------



## Ry

Khuxan said:
			
		

> For new feats, I think the most pressing issue is for multiclass casters to get more spellcasting.




I think spells known for spontaneous casters is right behind it.  I would use:

*Sorcerous Art*
Prerequisites: Character level 6, ability to cast spells of 2 different levels spontaneously.
Benefit: You gain two spells known - one for your highest level spell slot, and one for a lower level slot.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times.


----------



## Ry

green slime said:
			
		

> I was wondering if you had considered making the various class abilities that normally would only come into play after level 6 available as feats?
> I know there is already an Epic feat "Extra Wildshape" for instance. So in your experience, would you allow a "venom immunity" or "Wild shape:large" feats?




I'm hesitant with regards to any ability that you HAVE to be over 6th level to get - just as I am with a BAB higher than +6 or spells over 3rd.  

I'd be more likely to allow a feat where you choose 1 animal that's Large size with 6 or fewer hit dice, and can wildshape into that animal in addition to your normal list.  As an add-on for flavor, the requirement that the Druid had seen a specimen of that animal at some point, (no desert druids of a polar bear) make sense as well.


----------



## Ry

Emryys said:
			
		

> I'm wondering if the pdf "Buy the numbers" could add flexibility to the costs of buys feats/abilities after 6th Lvl...




I haven't seen Buy the Numbers (I mean, I know it exists but that's it).  Perhaps it could be a good way to price things that are worth the same as a feat to a 6th-level character? That said, I would still want to keep anything that isn't available by 6th level out of E6.


----------



## el-remmen

I am seriously considering using a version of this for Aquerra 2.0 - the total re-imaging on my setting I am planning for its 20th Anniversary.


----------



## evilbob

rycanada said:
			
		

> _I allow races with level adjustments, but if there are only 6 levels, how do they work?_
> If you use races with a level adjustment, the 6th level cap is a big issue. Use the point buy rules in the DMG as follows:
> LA  Point buy
> +0  32
> +1  25
> +2  18
> +3  10
> +4  00



To clarify:  are you saying that +LA races should start with zero LA, but use the point buy you've listed above based on what their LA would have been?



			
				rycanada said:
			
		

> *Conviction*
> ...
> *The Death Flag*
> ...



I'm also curious to know if in your extensive playtesting, did you always/often/occationally use house rules such as these?  The first one seems like a pretty standard "action-point-like" boost to PCs that makes the game more cinematic, but the second rule about never dying unless you choose to seems much more game-altering.  I'm just trying to understand the extent to which your own house rules may have flavored your players' experiences, and whether or not you've tried not using them and if that made a difference to your playtesting.


----------



## GreatLemur

I don't think I bothered to post when you brought this up previously, rycanada, but I'm really interested in this idea.  I _strongly_ prefer the idea of gaining lots of interesting new options as opposed to stacking on more raw power.

Even accepting hit points as an abstraction describing defensive ability rather than the physical capacity to survive bodily damage, human characters with 100+ HP just don't feel right to me.  Attack bonuses so huge that attacks are only rolled in case of an auto-fail result of "1" don't feel right, either.  And games where the PCs' every posession is magical just seem obnoxious.

Meanwhile, picking new feats is just about the coolest part of the whole game.

But I'm not a really big fan of experience points, personally.  If I were to use this system, I'd probably abstract feat gain the same way I would level gain.  That is, if the PCs have accomplished something major, they gain a level next time they have some down time.


----------



## Ry

evilbob said:
			
		

> To clarify:  are you saying that +LA races should start with zero LA, but use the point buy you've listed above based on what their LA would have been?
> 
> I'm also curious to know if in your extensive playtesting, did you always/often/occationally use house rules such as these?  The first one seems like a pretty standard "action-point-like" boost to PCs that makes the game more cinematic, but the second rule about never dying unless you choose to seems much more game-altering.  I'm just trying to understand the extent to which your own house rules may have flavored your players' experiences, and whether or not you've tried not using them and if that made a difference to your playtesting.




It's important to me to keep the rule changes minimal, because players really don't want to read a lot outside of the game and they get frustrated if there's too many house rules.

Conviction, in one form or another, has been part of my games for quite a while (although the ability to get actions was a recent change).  

The death flag is new to E6, and it's only been used in 1 session worth of playtesting (I used it with another system and ported it over).  

I allowed Giant and Faen races and racial class levels from AE, but not the spryte.  

Otherwise it's been straight D&D.  

I do like to think of E6 and the drama rules as separate:  One defines character building.  The other gives PCs the chance to improve the odds a few times a day, and reduces lethality.


----------



## Ry

GreatLemur said:
			
		

> I don't think I bothered to post when you brought this up previously, rycanada, but I'm really interested in this idea.  I _strongly_ prefer the idea of gaining lots of interesting new options as opposed to stacking on more raw power.
> 
> Even accepting hit points as an abstraction describing defensive ability rather than the physical capacity to survive bodily damage, human characters with 100+ HP just don't feel right to me.  Attack bonuses so huge that attacks are only rolled in case of an auto-fail result of "1" don't feel right, either.  And games where the PCs' every posession is magical just seem obnoxious.
> 
> Meanwhile, picking new feats is just about the coolest part of the whole game.




In this, we are of one mind.  I love new feats, btw, and I think they rightly earn a lot of attention from game designers.  They're ... just ... neat.



			
				GreatLemur said:
			
		

> But I'm not a really big fan of experience points, personally.  If I were to use this system, I'd probably abstract feat gain the same way I would level gain.  That is, if the PCs have accomplished something major, they gain a level next time they have some down time.




I'm sure that an ad-hoc "gain a feat" approach would work absolutely 100% with this system.  I used to do that with other systems (power up when the story makes it appropriate) and given the fact that the upper end of the power curve flattens off, this should go quite smoothly under that assumption.


----------



## Ry

evilbob said:
			
		

> To clarify:  are you saying that +LA races should start with zero LA, but use the point buy you've listed above based on what their LA would have been?




That's how I do it.  But I haven't had takers below 18 point buy.


----------



## Ry

el-remmen said:
			
		

> I am seriously considering using a version of this for Aquerra 2.0 - the total re-imaging on my setting I am planning for its 20th Anniversary.




Wow, 20 years of a campaign?  Congrats!

If you do use E6 (or a variant) (and I'd be flattered), or even if you just want to get some ideas for how to make it work, let me know!


----------



## Ry

A question for everyone:  Is there a module or adventure path or something that you'd like to see given the E6 treatment?  I think something like that could focus my efforts as far as how to prep this, and making 6th+X feats NPCs.

What about putting together a list of free adventures, and stringing them together as an E6 "adventure path"?


----------



## Koewn

rycanada said:
			
		

> What about putting together a list of free adventures, and stringing them together as an E6 "adventure path"?




I'd like to see that if only for the reason to see how "high level NPCs" look when they get...deep-E6'd. 

The old free adventures Wizards gave out on their website...(http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/oa/20030530b is the Original Adventures download site) may be good choices, although they don't necessarily work as a Path without plot fiddling.

They are, however, relatively quick and simple; usually only two or three NPCs/creature types. A few variable level one-shots would also be a good way for groups to playtest - pick the one that's closest to where your group is now and try it out one night as a one-off, see how it feels comparatively.


----------



## Koewn

As a quick addendum to my post, the Free Adventure "An Icy Heart" is the 20th level one; and features a CR 24 white dragon and a CR 19 awakened dire bear/barbarian.

Feats are a huge, fun thing - converting that one, with 20th-equivalent characters (and whatever would have to be done to the dragon and bear) would be a great example of "high-level" E6 play.

I think that for a lot of us believers here, converting our groups to E6 would need that sort of extreme example in play of how having...how many feats at E6+20th?...can flesh out a character something fierce, so that the original shock of "I can only go to 6th?!?" is gotten over.


----------



## Mark Causey

rycanada said:
			
		

> A question for everyone:  Is there a module or adventure path or something that you'd like to see given the E6 treatment?  I think something like that could focus my efforts as far as how to prep this, and making 6th+X feats NPCs.
> 
> What about putting together a list of free adventures, and stringing them together as an E6 "adventure path"?




I saw this mentioned on the Forge. I really like it, especially the Death Flag bit. If I were going to do an adventure set that was already written ... maybe some Planescape?

By the way, if the Forge isn't being helpful, try Story Games too.


----------



## green slime

rycanada said:
			
		

> Well, so far, so good, the highest was 6th+12 IMC.  I don't really think feat bloat would become a problem, because it hasn't so far.  But I'm on the lookout in my playtesting.




Which incidentily is what is required to achieve 6th level spellcasting in two spellcasting classes, according to what is described above.

5th Cleric/1st Wizard +1*Improved Spell Knowledge (Cleric) +1*Improved Spells per Day (Cleric) +5*Improved Spell Knowledge (Wizard) +5*Improved Spells per Day (Wizard)
5d8+1d4 HD, BAB +3
Does this seem reasonable?

What other capabilities would a character of similar experience be capable of?

Compared to a straight Wizard:
6th Wizard + 3*Spell Focus (Evocation, Conjuration, Necromancy) + Metamagic School Focus (Evocation) + Spell Penetration + Augment Summoning + Fell Weaken + Blistering Spell + Sudden Empower + 3*Extra Slot (2nd). 6d4 HD, BAB +3.
Additionally, the second character does see the 5th level bonus wizard feat.

Unfortunately, the "Extra Slot" feat can only provide 2nd level spells. I think I'd feel happier with the comparission if  it actually granted 3rd level spell slots.

Secondly, in order to actually see use of metamagic feats beyond sudden, I'd recommend a "Epic Spell Slot" feat, akin to the ELH "Improved Spell Capacity", that would grant the use of a 4th level spell slot n(or beyond). This slot would only see use with metamagicked spells. I'd feel happier about that as a DM than the "Metamagic School Focus", which allows up to 3 spells per day to be metamagicked.

I fear, however, that implementing these changes may see the balance swing too much in favour of the spellcasters, for rycanada. However, it is also very dependant on how far into "Epic" the campaign runs. Maybe I'm chasing strawmen.

Thirdly, after rummaging around and actually looking through the books, it is really imperative to allow feats from all WotC books. You run the risk otherwise of suffering from having far too few feats available.


----------



## knight_isa

Khuxan said:
			
		

> I produced three texts for Ry20:
> For new feats, I think the most pressing issue is for multiclass casters to get more spellcasting.
> 
> *Improved Spell Knowledge*
> *Prerequisites:* Character level 6, access to 1st-level spells.
> *Benefit:* Choose a spontaneous spellcasting class you have levels in. Your spells known improve as if you were one level higher in that class. This feat cannot improve your effective class level to greater than 6.
> *Special:* You can take this feat multiple times. Each time, it improves your spells known by one level, or applies to a new spontaneous casting class.
> 
> *Improved Spells Per Day*
> *Prerequisites:* Character level 6, access to 1st-level spells.
> *Benefit:* Choose a spellcasting class you have levels in. Your spells per day improve as if you were one level higher in that class. This feat cannot improve your effective class level to greater than 6.
> *Special:* You can take this feat multiple times. Each time, it improves your spells known by one level, or applies to a new spontaneous casting class.






			
				rycanada said:
			
		

> Thanks Khuxan, those two feats are exactly how I did it in my game.




It seems like a level of spellcasting is a bit much for a feat.  I'd imagine that say, a Brb-5/Wiz-1 + 5 (all Improved Spells Per Day) would be considerably more powerful than a Brb-6 + 5 or a Wiz-6 + 5.  Did it not work out that way?

Do you have feats to raise BAB if it is less than +6?

By the way, I really like the idea.  I've gone on a break for DMing due largely to burn-out, but I think that E6 might give me a motivation to give it another go.

_Edit:_


			
				green slime said:
			
		

> Which incidentily is what is required to achieve 6th level spellcasting in two spellcasting classes, according to what is described above.
> 
> 5th Cleric/1st Wizard +1*Improved Spell Knowledge (Cleric) +1*Improved Spells per Day (Cleric) +5*Improved Spell Knowledge (Wizard) +5*Improved Spells per Day (Wizard)




Would a wizard need to take Improved Spell Knowledge?  Generally, wizards can learn spells of any level they can cast.  I would expect that Improved Spell Knowledge would let them add two spells to their spellbook for free, but they wouldn't be required.  Is that not the case?

Actually, wizards wouldn't take Improved Spell Knowledge, because they aren't spontaneous casters and thus would not benefit.


----------



## Ry

I'm off and away from keyboard for a long, long weekend, so please keep posting thoughts here, I will get back to you all next week.  

Also, any links to free online adventures you'd like to see as part of a E6 Adventure Path would be much appreciated.


----------



## green slime

knight_isa said:
			
		

> Would a wizard need to take Improved Spell Knowledge?  Generally, wizards can learn spells of any level they can cast.  I would expect that Improved Spell Knowledge would let them add two spells to their spellbook for free, but they wouldn't be required.  Is that not the case?
> 
> Actually, wizards wouldn't take Improved Spell Knowledge, because they aren't spontaneous casters and thus would not benefit.




Sorry, I misread. You are indeed correct. In which case, I find it too easy to gain higher spellcasting ability in secondary classes.  I'd feel happier requiring two feats to gain the equivalent of a whole spellcasting class (spells per day + improved caster level)


----------



## Ry

You guys are raising a good point about spellcasting being too fast.  

Funny, though, that it never seemed like a problem.  Now that I think about it it was a (partial) bard and wizard that took advantage of them.  For this upcoming round I may need to locate some frothing powergamers.


----------



## green slime

E6 6th Fighter (+12) 
(cost: 75,000 xp or almost 13th level (78,000 xp), calculated in order to guesstimate appropriate wealth comparisson: Assumption around 88,000 gp accumulated)

Grognard the Grey
=============
Human (32 point buy)
Str 18 (17+1), Dex 12, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 11, Cha 8

HD: 6d10+18  (~=55 hp)
AC: 21 (Flatfooted 20)
DR 3/-

Melee Attack (Great  Sword): +13/+8 2d6+10 19-20/x2
(PA-3): +10/+5 2d6+16 19-20/x2
(Leap Attack, PA-3): +10 2d6+19 19-20/x2
(Heedless Charge, +LA, +PA -6 to AC ) +13 2d6+28 19-20/x2

Saves:
Fort: +11 Refl: +5 Will: +8

Feats:
Cleave, Combat Brute, Combat Expertise, Endurance, Great Fortitude, Imp Bullrush, Imp Grapple, Imp Sunder, Imp Toughness, Imp Unarmed Strike, Indomitable Soul, Iron Will, Leap Attack, Leap of the Heavens, Mounted Combat, Power Attack, Shock Trooper, Steadfast Determination, Weapon Focus (Great Sword), WS (Grt Swd).

Skills:
Climb: 9 rks + 4 +5
Craft (armour): 9 rks +2
Jump: 9 rks + 4 + Leap of the Heavens.
Ride: 9 rks + 1
Swim: 9 rks + 4 +5 

Equipment:
========
+2 Flaming Great Sword of Giant Bane (32,000 gp)
+2 Dwarven Plate (Adamantine Full Plate) (20,500 gp)
+2 Cloak of Resistance (4,000 gp)
Gloves of Swimming & Climbing (6,250 gp)
Potions of Barkskin, Bull's Strength, Cure X Wounds, Darkvision, Fly, Haste, Heroism, Keen Edge, Neutralize Poison, Water Breathing.


----------



## Koewn

knight_isa said:
			
		

> Actually, wizards wouldn't take Improved Spell Knowledge, because they aren't spontaneous casters and thus would not benefit.




Well, wizards do get the free spells "researched" every level, since they're not going up levels, technically, it's basically the "Free Spells per Level" feat. The two free spells they get per level roughly coincide with what Sorcerers get in Spells Known per level.


----------



## Koewn

green slime said:
			
		

> E6 6th Fighter (+12)
> (cost: 75,000 xp or almost 13th level (78,000 xp), calculated in order to guesstimate appropriate wealth comparisson: Assumption around 88,000 gp accumulated)
> 
> Feats:
> Cleave, Combat Brute, Combat Expertise, Endurance, Great Fortitude, Imp Bullrush, Imp Grapple, Imp Imp Sunder, Toughness, Imp Unarmed Strike, Indomitable Soul, Iron Will, Leap Attack, Leap of the Heavens, Mounted Combat, Power Attack, Shock Trooper, Steadfast Determination, Weapon Focus (Great Sword), WS (Grt Swd).




See, now that's impressive. Right there is a *lot* of feats you'd never usually take as a fighter, and you've ended up with a really good all-around combatant with a lot of options every round.

You can't make a 13th level character that well rounded.


----------



## TonyTempest

*Class point buy system*

I had tried to do something like this myself.  I was never able to test it, but it broke down to characters being 9-10th level and then only advancing bit by bit.  It was created for a PBEM where I've noticed advancing is slow, so I did this.  While the characters may remain at the level they are, advancement will not stop. I will be rewarding Class Points that the players can use to improve any number of a character’s aspects. Whether it is adding class abilities, improving attributes, adding skills or adding feats, Class Points are spent in the stead of an all at once improvement that a level in a class provides.

Here is a sampling of the break-down of I wrote on how Class Points can be spent:
Skills (there are no cross-class skills): 1 point per raise/
2 points for a skill trick (Complete Scoundrel)
Feat: 3 points per feat (only one feat per reward session)
Base Attack Bonus: 2 points per raise (only one raise per reward session)
Hit Dice:  1 point per 1d4
     2 points per 1d6
	  etc.
(only one hit die can be purchased per reward session/ hit die yield a minimum of 2 hp)
Class Ability:  (Ex) 2 points (including increased weapon/armor proficiency)
		(Sp) 3 points
		(Su) 4 points
		I opened class abilities to feat buy:  In E6 because you want to keep characters from the "wuxia" level, you might do this, but probably not any of the Sp or Su class abilities.  Here I wrote: Each Class ability is like a feat in that it has Prerequisites. Each Class Ability has the prerequisites of the Class Abilities that come before it on the matrix. [in essence I made class abilities like talent trees I guess)  (for example, a Rogue’s Evasion Class ability (Ex) costs 2 Class Points and has Trapfinding and Sneak Attack +1D6 as its prerequisite.)    If a class ability has a prerequisite that is fulfilled by a class ability from a class the character already possesses, the character need not purchase that ability again.  For instance, if a character has Evasion from his Rogue Class and wishes to purchase Still Mind from the Monk Class (presuming the other prerequisites to Still Mind are also possessed) the character can count his Rogue’s Evasion as fulfilling the prerequisite.  As long as a character has any feats, the bonus feat class ability is considered fulfilled.  “Bonus Feat” cannot be purchased as a “Class Ability”… feats must be paid for with the feat’s cost.


It’s important to realize that with this Class Point breakdown, you are not limited to any one class. Once Class Points begin being rewarded, every feat and class ability is available to you as long as you meet the pre-requisites.  
	One final note.  It is possible to never increase your BAB or skill ranks again. You can spend all your points from here on out on increasing your character’s strength, and that is fine. However, a more well-balanced improvement (spending some points on hit die, some on saves, a few on feats, etc) may be more beneficial.  If you want to spend them all on hit die, however, no one will stop you.

I wanted to issue 3-6 Class points per every so often... if it took too long for PBEM to finish an adventure I would do it quicker, if the individual adventures went by at a decent pace I would do it after successful finish.
I really like your take on this though.  I think I would use an XP point buy, rather than switching that mechanic like I did... that would keep things easier by keeping the terminology the same.  Alas, as I said, I never got to play that way, so I never tested it, whereas you've tested this.  Sounds good.


{and yay, my first post here, even though I've been registered for years!}

david


----------



## Koewn

OK, just to throw this out visually, this should be, I hope, the expected number of feats for an E6 character compared to the level of a normal DND character, based on XP earned.

Note everything at and prior to 6 is the normal character-level feats. After that, look at it go! I'm hoping this is right.



		Code:
	

1	         1
2		 1
3		 2
4		 2
5		 2
6		 3
7		 5
8		 7
9	       	 9
10		12
11		15
12		19
13		23
14		27
15		31
16		36
17		41
18		46
19		52
20		58


----------



## Aegir

58 @ Lv 20?! Wow. First thing that comes to mind is, this system really needs some feats to be tweaked so they can be taken multiple times. I'm sure you can find more than enough if you allow every WotC splatbook ever, but having done that in the past, its simply more of a headache then its worth.

I really like the idea of making feats of some higher level class abilities, or perhaps making feat chains of some of the better PrCs out there (since this system really kills PrCs). Perhaps some of this sort of thing can be tied to total XP (like requiring X amount of XP before you can take it), or simply have them require more XP to purchase then your usual feat. Or, maybe theres an initial feat required that costs the same as multiple feats, but is required for the chain.


----------



## green slime

Koewn said:
			
		

> See, now that's impressive. Right there is a *lot* of feats you'd never usually take as a fighter, and you've ended up with a really good all-around combatant with a lot of options every round.
> 
> You can't make a 13th level character that well rounded.




Yeah, I was impressed actually (2d6+28 on a charge!?) . I wasn't trying to max him out, either. I just went for plain vanilla.

I did notice that there are a lot of kewl feats seem to require Dex 13, though.


----------



## jimbojones

Would you let people take skill points instead of the feat? And if so, how many would you get - 4 maybe? 

This is assuming the existence of a skill focus feat that gives +3 to a single skill - or maybe you'd just rely on people taking the feat multiple times? If so, would it stack?


----------



## green slime

jimbojones said:
			
		

> Would you let people take skill points instead of the feat? And if so, how many would you get - 4 maybe?
> 
> This is assuming the existence of a skill focus feat that gives +3 to a single skill - or maybe you'd just rely on people taking the feat multiple times? If so, would it stack?




There is a feat which grants 5 skill points. You can take it multiple times. You aren't allowed to break the rank limit in any individual skill of 9 (level +3) if its a class skill, or 4 if its a cross-class skill.


----------



## green slime

Also note that there are an amazing number of feats which grant bonuses to skills. You could skill get quite a high value in any skill if you decided to focus on it.


----------



## jimbojones

green slime said:
			
		

> There is a feat which grants 5 skill points. You can take it multiple times. You aren't allowed to break the rank limit in any individual skill of 9 (level +3) if its a class skill, or 4 if its a cross-class skill.




Sounds like that fits the bill very well.

Looking forward to trying this, I must say! I think I'll start writing up a campaign setting for it on the weekend. Something grim and gritty, with ancient serpent people ruling decaying cities in jungles to the south and raiding for slaves amongst the younger human settlements of the plains. With Vikings for added nutritional goodness


----------



## jdrakeh

Man. This is _gold_. I have a very tight day to day schedule which really makes it hard for me to fit in rules-heavy games like D&D, so this is just what the doctor ordered


----------



## joela

*Questions from rpg.net readers*

I cross-linked E6 over at rpg.net and wondered if you could address the skill question:

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=341154


----------



## jdrakeh

P.S. If you want a fancy/shiny PDF, let me know. I just obtained a grip of epic-ish Arthur Rackham artwork (all public domain but still sexy) and I have about 2500 fonts, so I can do quite a bit on that end  I'll just need you to email the text that you want converted in a _RTF_ format.


----------



## green slime

joela said:
			
		

> I cross-linked E6 over at rpg.net and wondered if you could address the skill question:
> 
> http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=341154




No thanks. They're all welcome to read this thread.


----------



## jeffh

A couple of questions about Conviction.

First of all, it says you can spend 1 Conviction to roll an extra d20 on a check. Is that word "check" meant to be taken literally, or can it be applied to attacks and saves as well? (It is clear the reroll for using 2 conviction can.)

Secondly, there is no @ symbol next to the ability to gain an extra standard action. Again, is this deliberate, meaning it can be done out of turn?


----------



## joela

*4th and higher level spells*



			
				rycanada said:
			
		

> _I like high-magic, high-powered campaigns.  Is E6 for me?_
> Probably not.  Just as D&D can’t be all things to all groups, E6 caters to a specific set of tastes.




I do, too. 

Here's a possible compromise. An wizard, if they find such spells, can memorize and cast a 4th or higher level spell if 1) they're 6th level and 2) their Int. mod. is at least equal to the spell level. Thus, a wizard must have at least an 18 Intelligence to memorize and cast a 4th level spell (Int. modifier is +4) while a 28 Int. (+9 modifier) is required to memorize and cast a 9th level spell!

Note wizards can only hold a limited number of 4th or higher spells in their minds at once. The maximum number of spell levels is equal to their Int. modifier. The 18 Int. wizard, for example, can only hold in their mind and cast one 4th level spell while one with a 28 Int. could memorize and cast one 4th and one fifth level spell (4 + 5 equals the +9 modifier). A wizard, obviously, doesn't have to use their full modifier (i.e., memorize a 6th spell, leaving +3 alone). 

I'd probably require the spell caster to make a Concentration check due to the mindwarping nature of such powerful spells, with d4/spell level points of non-lethal damage if they fail (or worse, temporarily lose 1 Int./spell level!).

Sorcerers, because they "create" their spells, would "develop" such higher spells probably with feats of some sort. The above restriction, though, still applies.

The advantage of the above system is that it allows players to have arcane PCs with (possible) access to phenomenal spells (and one explanation to those +4 swords or scroll of cloudkill!) without unbalancing the low magic nature of E6.


----------



## green slime

joela said:
			
		

> I do, too.
> 
> Here's a possible compromise. An wizard, if they find such spells, can memorize and cast a 4th or higher level spell if 1) they're 6th level and 2) their Int. mod. is at least equal to the spell level. Thus, a wizard must have at least an 18 Intelligence to memorize and cast a 4th level spell (Int. modifier is +4) while a 28 Int. (+9 modifier) is required to memorize and cast a 9th level spell!
> 
> Note they can only hold a limited number of 4th or higher spells. The maximum number of spell levels is equal to the Int. modifier. A 18 Int. wizard, for example, can only hold and cast one 4th level spell while one with a 28 Int. could memorize one 4th and one fifth level spells (4 + 5 equals the +9 modifier). A wizard, obviously, doesn't have to use their full modifier (i.e., memorize a 6th spell, leaving 3 modifiers alone).
> 
> I'd probably require the spell caster to make a Concentration check due to the mindwarping nature of such powerful spells, with d4/spell level points of non-lethal damage (or worse, temporarily lose 1 Int./spell level!) if they fail.
> 
> Sorcerers, because they develop their spells almost like abilities, would "develop" such spells probably with feats of some sort. The above restriction, though, still applies.




While you are free to introduce such things to your game, for me what makes this subset of the rules interesting for me is the lack of higher level spells! 

Firstly what you are suggesting breaks the very idea behind the concept (nicely balanced classes, limited to 6th level abilities), and will once again cause the power curve to land squarely in the court of the spellcaster. 

Secondly, it is introducing a new mechanic, which rycanada was quite specific about trying to avoid.


----------



## Emryys

jdrakeh said:
			
		

> P.S. If you want a fancy/shiny PDF, let me know. I just obtained a grip of epic-ish Arthur Rackham artwork (all public domain but still sexy) and I have about 2500 fonts, so I can do quite a bit on that end  I'll just need you to email the text that you want converted in a _RTF_ format.




Love to see it...


----------



## Vicar In A Tutu

This rocks. I'm gonna test this with my group.


----------



## Ry

I quickly grabbed access to a computer (I'm clearly an addict):  

For the spells thing, what I'd like to see (and what I'd do if I had more time and more books here on my vacation) is another set of feats to handle the spellcasting development for multiclass catch-up.  If we ditched the other feats, and wanted something slower, what about this:

Spell Advancement (1)
Prereq: Ability to cast at least 2 0th-level spells per day, bonus spell slot, 1st level
Benefit:  You gain the ability to cast 0 1st-level spells per day.

Spell Advancement (2)
Prereq: Ability to cast at least 2 1st-level spells per day, bonus spell slot, 2nd level
Benefit:  You gain the ability to cast 0 2nd-level spells per day.

Spell Advancement (3)
Prereq: Ability to cast at least 2 2nd-level spells per day, bonus spell slot, 3rd level
Benefit:  You gain the ability to cast 0 3rd-level spells per day.


----------



## Ry

Vicar In A Tutu said:
			
		

> This rocks. I'm gonna test this with my group.




I am eager to hear other peoples' playtesting experiences.   Let us know how it goes!


----------



## Ry

jeffh said:
			
		

> A couple of questions about Conviction.
> 
> First of all, it says you can spend 1 Conviction to roll an extra d20 on a check. Is that word "check" meant to be taken literally, or can it be applied to attacks and saves as well? (It is clear the reroll for using 2 conviction can.)
> 
> Secondly, there is no @ symbol next to the ability to gain an extra standard action. Again, is this deliberate, meaning it can be done out of turn?





1.  Should apply to everything.  Also, since Conviction is used with Players Roll All the Dice, it applies to defensive rolls and save breakers as well.

2.  That's a mistake.  Should be an @ there.  I'll edit it.


----------



## Ry

Also, I updated Conviction to be 6 points base, 6 points with death flag.  5 looked just a touch low to me, and 5 was a clawback from the earlier 5+Level, which was too much at level 6.


----------



## Sqwonk

Interesting system.  I may have to give it a try.

What intrgues me is that now magical armour is way more valuable.  Each +1 to your AC is a huge difference when a "Epic" 6th level fighter is maybe +8 or so to attack.


----------



## green slime

rycanada said:
			
		

> I quickly grabbed access to a computer (I'm clearly an addict):
> 
> For the spells thing, what I'd like to see (and what I'd do if I had more time and more books here on my vacation) is another set of feats to handle the spellcasting development for multiclass catch-up.  If we ditched the other feats, and wanted something slower, what about this:
> 
> Spell Advancement (1)
> Prereq: Ability to cast at least 2 0th-level spells per day, bonus spell slot, 1st level
> Benefit:  You gain the ability to cast 0 1st-level spells per day.
> 
> Spell Advancement (2)
> Prereq: Ability to cast at least 2 1st-level spells per day, bonus spell slot, 2nd level
> Benefit:  You gain the ability to cast 0 2nd-level spells per day.
> 
> Spell Advancement (3)
> Prereq: Ability to cast at least 2 2nd-level spells per day, bonus spell slot, 3rd level
> Benefit:  You gain the ability to cast 0 3rd-level spells per day.




A distinct possibility. There are all sorts of wonky effects, and it is difficult to see what the result is without creating some characters. Would these feats stack with ordinary spellcasting? Thus effectively doubling the number of spells granted for a specific Stat?

Secondly, it doesn't allow the 1st wizard / 5th Cleric to advance beyond "0" 2nd level (+Stat) spells.

I think I'd prefer:

*Caster Insight (Spells per Day)*
*Prerequisites:* Character level 6. At least 1 level in a spellcasting class.
*Benefit:* Select a spellcasting class you already possess. You gain another level in that class, with respect to Spells per Day. You gain no other benefits with respect to that class.
*Special:* This feat may be taken multiple times, and stacks. You may not, however,  exceed the 6th level casting ability with this feat. 
*Example:* Bob the 4th Fighter/ 2nd Wizard takes this feat. He now may cast a number of spells per day as if he were a 3rd level wizard, but his caster level for all other purposes remains at 2nd level. 

*Caster Insight (Caster level)*
*Prerequisites:* Character level 6. At least 1 level in a spellcasting class.
*Benefit:* Select a spellcasting class you already possess. You gain another level in that class, with respect to your actual casting level. You gain no other benefits with respect to that class.
*Special:* This feat may be taken multiple times, and stacks. You may not, however,  exceed the 6th level with this feat.
*Example:* Bob the 4th Fighter/ 2nd Wizard takes this feat. He now casts spells as if he were a 3rd level wizard (_magic missile_ sends off two missiles), but the number of spells he may cast per day and the number of spells he knows, remain unchanged. 

A valid question then becomes: If it is valid for a multiclassed spellcaster to continue to develop spellcasting ability in a class they apparently showed little favour in while developing, shouldn't it also be valid for a 1st Wizard / 4th Cleric / 1st Fighter character to gain access to Weapon Specialisation, and eventually BAB +6 and the iterative attack it implies?!? 

Further more, consider the popular Fighter/Rogue combination, which now loses a whole attack, and is incapable of Manyshot.

The above question is quite a conundrum, because we seem generally far more ready to allow spellcasters the benefit of the doubt, but are very quick to stifle fighters and to me, once given thought, this question tends to lend itself to a negative answer.


----------



## green slime

Sqwonk said:
			
		

> Interesting system.  I may have to give it a try.
> 
> What intrgues me is that now magical armour is way more valuable.  Each +1 to your AC is a huge difference when a "Epic" 6th level fighter is maybe +8 or so to attack.




+13, more likely (see example above)


----------



## Akrasia

This is a great idea!  If I ever DM 3e again, I'm definitely using this system.


----------



## knight_isa

rycanada said:
			
		

> I quickly grabbed access to a computer (I'm clearly an addict):
> 
> For the spells thing, what I'd like to see (and what I'd do if I had more time and more books here on my vacation) is another set of feats to handle the spellcasting development for multiclass catch-up.  If we ditched the other feats, and wanted something slower, what about this:
> 
> Spell Advancement (1)
> Prereq: Ability to cast at least 2 0th-level spells per day, bonus spell slot, 1st level
> Benefit:  You gain the ability to cast 0 1st-level spells per day.
> 
> Spell Advancement (2)
> Prereq: Ability to cast at least 2 1st-level spells per day, bonus spell slot, 2nd level
> Benefit:  You gain the ability to cast 0 2nd-level spells per day.
> 
> Spell Advancement (3)
> Prereq: Ability to cast at least 2 2nd-level spells per day, bonus spell slot, 3rd level
> Benefit:  You gain the ability to cast 0 3rd-level spells per day.




Spell Advancement (3) would allow a Bard to cast third level spells (normally not available until 7th level).



			
				green slime said:
			
		

> A valid question then becomes: If it is valid for a multiclassed spellcaster to continue to develop spellcasting ability in a class they apparently showed little favour in while developing, shouldn't it also be valid for a 1st Wizard / 4th Cleric / 1st Fighter character to gain access to Weapon Specialisation, and eventually BAB +6 and the iterative attack it implies?!?
> 
> Further more, consider the popular Fighter/Rogue combination, which now loses a whole attack, and is incapable of Manyshot.
> 
> The above question is quite a conundrum, because we seem generally far more ready to allow spellcasters the benefit of the doubt, but are very quick to stifle fighters and to me, once given thought, this question tends to lend itself to a negative answer.




I was thinking that, too.  If you allow multi-class casters to recover, then you're really encouraging multi-class casters, since eventually they'll be as good as single-class casters AND whatever else they picked.

I think that I'll just keep Extra Slot (or perhaps some variant thereof) and call it good.  There are enough base classes now that model the multi-class caster (like the duskblade) that I don't think it will be a problem.

_EDIT:_ I don't have Complete Mage, but from what I hear reserve feats might fill that gap somewhat, too.


----------



## Koewn

green slime said:
			
		

> The above question is quite a conundrum, because we seem generally far more ready to allow spellcasters the benefit of the doubt, but are very quick to stifle fighters and to me, once given thought, this question tends to lend itself to a negative answer.




A very good point. Off the top of my head, just to toss some things out:

1) A feat that gives you a virtual BAB increase (much like many of theses spellcaster feats have only given a virtual spellcaster level). So you'd eventually have a virtual BAB of +8 or +12 to qualify for feats with, without actually having that BAB.

2) A feat that improves your BAB, but only up to +6, and/or after that, only improves  your secondary attack (and, if your secondary attack hits +5, maybe lets you into a tertiary attack). That kind of follows with the caster feats that are improving slots-per-day (obviously more powerful, but I'm just tossing stuff out)

Dunno. Just tossing wood on a fire. These are the sorts of things you'd need to look at.

I almost think the "Virtual BAB" feat, with just a simple Extra Slots and Extra Spell Known feat would cover all the bases - virtual BAB would get you those high level feats, though at a cost.


----------



## Committed Hero

Perhaps it's because I prefer d20 Modern, but it seems to me that that skills get the short end of the deal.  Any thought about allowing increases to ranks, too?


----------



## joela

*rycanada*



			
				green slime said:
			
		

> Secondly, it is introducing a new mechanic, which rycanada was quite specific about trying to avoid.




Uh, what's your point? rycanada was also quite specific in pointing out that his system will not be for everyone and everyone is also welcome to add/modify their own options into E6.


----------



## green slime

Rather than introducing a whole collection of rather strange feats, my opinion is now that people who want to achieve the kind of things we have been discusing lately (that is to say dealing with multiclass restrictions in a manner that allows the character to achieve their "full" 6th level potential) is to instead use Gestalt characters in this E6 environment.

That way, combat hogs can go Fighter//Paladin or Fighter//Barbarian, while Cleric//Wizard and Fighter//Rogue, Fighter//Wizard all remain feasible.

This, I think, will be the manner in which I run my next campaign. 

No PrC's, obviously.


----------



## Ry

OK, I think there are some great ideas coming up but there's some clashing over how people want to use E6.  So here's what I think we should do:

Basic E6 doesn't fix any issues on its own.  If a Basic E6 GM wants to fix something, they can fix it their own way.  There's lots of 3rd-party sources that have feats that address the problems we've brought up here.

Core E6 is Basic E6 plus some feats we design here that preserve level 6 abilities as a hard cap.  These can include our best effort attempts to deal with the multiclassing issues, and I'd like it to include the Restoration and Ability upgrade feats as well.

Finally, Expanded E6 has feats built around attaining level 8 equivalent abilities (4th level spells, +8 BAB) but these are still gained incrementally, via feats.

So rather than argue because we have different ideas of what we want E6 to look like, why don't we just classify our suggestions and playtest experiences into BE6, CE6, and XE6?


----------



## Mark Causey

I just noticed the E6 hits exactly where Leadership comes into play.

Maybe instead of worrying about expanding a character past 6th level, you could worry about raising the levels of your companions?


----------



## Ry

joela said:
			
		

> Uh, what's your point? rycanada was also quite specific in pointing out that his system will not be for everyone and everyone is also welcome to add/modify their own options into E6.




No worries.  Here's what I think the issue is: On the one hand there are good suggestion for how to use E6 with some other house rules to get a desired result.  On the other hand, there's suggestions for what should be going into an E6 .pdf.  

When I said I'd like to keep this free of new rules (except new feats) I'm talking about the latter.  Would I be correct in saying that when you posted those rules you're talking about the former?


----------



## Cheiromancer

I kinda see 6th level as more the beginning of the sweet spot, which goes to around 9th level or so.  If I were to tinker with the E6 system, I think I'd allow a limited amount of advancement.

For example, I might try an E5+ as follows:

Up to 10,000 xp (5th level) everything is as normal.  After 10,000 xp, gain a feat every 5,000 xp *except* at 20K, 40K, 80K and 160K; at those xp totals you gain a level instead.

At 210,000 xp (20th level) a character would have 9 class levels and 36 extra feats.

I think this allows some breathing room with regard to prestige classes, multiclassing, skill rank caps, etc., without detracting too much (imho) from the OP's design goals.

[edit] The most recent posts weren't up when I started composing this.  My suggestion would take basic E6 and run with it in a different direction.  Instead of requiring feats to solve all the potential problems, it would allow a limited amount of level advancement instead.


----------



## Ry

Cheiromancer said:
			
		

> [edit] The most recent posts weren't up when I started composing this.  My suggestion would take basic E6 and run with it in a different direction.  Instead of requiring feats to solve all the potential problems, it would allow a limited amount of level advancement instead.




I get that.  One thing I notice in this system is that at 5th, 7th, and 9th Sorcerers lag behind Wizards because of those highest-level spells.  Would you be discouraging Sorcerers in your campaign by design?


----------



## knight_isa

Cheiromancer said:
			
		

> I kinda see 6th level as more the beginning of the sweet spot, which goes to around 9th level or so.  If I were to tinker with the E6 system, I think I'd allow a limited amount of advancement.
> 
> For example, I might try an E5+ as follows:
> 
> Up to 10,000 xp (5th level) everything is as normal.  After 10,000 xp, gain a feat every 5,000 xp *except* at 20K, 40K, 80K and 160K; at those xp totals you gain a level instead.
> 
> At 210,000 xp (20th level) a character would have 9 class levels and 37 extra feats.




I was thinking about something similar this morning, only ending at 8th level.  The problem I saw, though, is that it kinda screws the sorcerer compared to the wizard (in your example, he'd have to wait 20k xp for that next level of spells).

_EDIT:_ rycanada beat me to it.


----------



## Cheiromancer

rycanada said:
			
		

> One thing I notice in this system is that at 5th, 7th, and 9th Sorcerers lag behind Wizards because of those highest-level spells.  Would you be discouraging Sorcerers in your campaign by design?




I'd give them 1 spell known and 0 spells per day (plus bonus spells) at odd levels.  At even levels they'd be just like in the book.

I'm also thinking of some kind of mechanic for getting access to higher level spells - mechanically much like buying scrolls, but with less strain on the believability of the campaign world.  (i.e. how could you buy a scroll with a 6th level spell if no one in the campaign world is 11th level?)  Limit it to PHB spells equal to or less than the PC's character level, make it take 1 hour/level to perform - stuff like that.


----------



## knight_isa

Cheiromancer said:
			
		

> I'd give them 1 spell known and 0 spells per day (plus bonus spells) at odd levels.  At even levels they'd be just like in the book.




That's a good idea.  It's probably a good idea for standard D&D, too.



			
				Cheiromancer said:
			
		

> I'm also thinking of some kind of mechanic for getting access to higher level spells - mechanically much like buying scrolls, but with less strain on the believability of the campaign world.  (i.e. how could you buy a scroll with a 6th level spell if no one in the campaign world is 11th level?)  Limit it to PHB spells equal to or less than the PC's character level, make it take 1 hour/level to perform - stuff like that.




IIRC there are rules for rituals in UA.  Those should be able to handle any "epic" casting for E6, too, if you need it.


----------



## Ry

adamantineangel said:
			
		

> I just noticed the E6 hits exactly where Leadership comes into play.
> 
> Maybe instead of worrying about expanding a character past 6th level, you could worry about raising the levels of your companions?




That's a cool approach - I think Dragon has had some cohort-enhancing feats in the last year or so.

One thing that some players did at the cap:  THey had their main PC retire from adventuring for awhile.  One became the Master-at-arms of a castle and personal bodyguard to its Lord.  Then he whipped up a totally new character, which we put at level 4, and he was still playable with the rest of the party.  THere was one time that it made sense for the newer character to go off to do something else, and the old character was around and asked leave to travel with the party again.  That was cool.


----------



## Mark Causey

Man, that does sound really neat. You could even keep track of your level gains overall (that is, over all your characters) and have your retired characters advance socially in the world based on that. Or! Maybe you have a chart of things that could happen to them as they go up in Social Level. This could include things like 'Got married', 'Had a child', 'Entered the Royal Court', and even 'Murdered'. Then, this could be the basis for further stories when you go back to pay them a visit or avenge their deaths. Lineage tools are always cool.


----------



## Dragonblade275

*Gestalt e6?*

Ry?

Have you considered using the Gestalt rules from Unearthed Arcana with your e6 rules?  I think it would make for more varieties of characters while staying with the 6th level cap.

Any thoughts?


----------



## Ry

I had some thoughts about Gestalt E6, and originally I attempted to do E6 with options for gestalting on the side (in addition to featlike progression).  But that system had somany holes that I abandoned it before the first session (at my players' urgings).  

But I think E6 + the regular gestalt rules (i.e. Gestalt LEvel 1, Gestalt Level 2, Gestalt level 3) would work very well, especially with a doubled EXP chart.


----------



## Ry

green_slime, for Gorgnard are you sure all those items can be made under the cap?


----------



## TonyTempest

knight_isa said:
			
		

> That's a good idea.  It's probably a good idea for standard D&D, too.
> 
> 
> 
> IIRC there are rules for rituals in UA.  Those should be able to handle any "epic" casting for E6, too, if you need it.



 I immediately began thinking of higher level spells as being the dark mysterious, things man was not meant to know, found in books in long lost libraries.  But, these spells would have to be cast in ritual, which is a pretty traditional fantasy staple.  If a group of casters can cast spells at higher levels than any individual, you open up the villain possibilities to cultists trying to cast a high level summoning.  In this case your heroes would have to stop the cultists, because there would be no way they could stop whatever it is the cultists wish to stop.

I also liked the idea of mid-level magic items being epic quality artifacts.  That +4 sword had to have been made by a "god" like rycanada said.  And if you ever had a "real" artifact in the game.... it woud be HUGE (not in size, but... well you know).

david


----------



## Cheiromancer

knight_isa said:
			
		

> Cheiromancer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'd give them 1 spell known and 0 spells per day (plus bonus spells) at odd levels. At even levels they'd be just like in the book.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's a good idea. It's probably a good idea for standard D&D, too.
Click to expand...


Thanks.  In any event, this question is probably orthogonal to rycanada's proposal.  If someone feels the classes are not quite balanced (i.e. if sorcerers are weaker than wizards at even levels) they can tinker a little with it a little.



			
				knight_isa said:
			
		

> IIRC there are rules for rituals in UA.  Those should be able to handle any "epic" casting for E6, too, if you need it.



Maybe for a low-magic game.  Or if there are no spellcasters.  But if you want to have a standard campaign, only with an extended sweet spot, then I think those rules may be a little cumbersome.

If you are a 6th level character and need a _break enchantment_ or something, you'd go find a higher level NPC to cast it for you.  Or buy a scroll.  This will probably take some time to do (a few days, perhaps longer), and require an outlay of gold or maybe a service.  Whatever you do, you should be able to do the same thing in E6.  Maybe with a different flavor, but mechanically it should be similar.

If we do go with the staggered advancement rules (7th level at 40K, 8th at 80K, 9th at 160K) then we could fiddle with the front end too.  Let the PCs start at 3rd level (natural heroes), at advance at 5K and 10K.  They get a feat at 15K, and every 5K (unless they gain a level).  That should allow real growth of a character over a campaign, but maximize the time in the sweet spot.

[edit] 

Re: ECL and such.  I believe a level in a PC class is worth about 4 feats, not counting treasure (so if they stay at 6th level equipment, it would take 6 feats for them to be the equivalent of a character a level higher).  So a level is costing the characters 20,000 xp; about 3 times as much as normal for a 6th level character.  So it's roughly equivalent to giving only 1/3 as much experience in order to slow down advancement.  Now 6th level feats might be a little weaker than average, or maybe they don't synergize all that well- I don't know (that's one reason I'd allow gradual advancement to 9th level or so- so you could get longer feat chains and more higher level feats).  But I'd estimate ECLs by trying a rate of 1 character level = 4 feats. Maybe 6, if I were feeling cautious.

So a party of "20th level characters" (9th level + 36 feats) might be fairly matched by an ECL 18 encounter (9 + 36/4).  Assuming they have the treasure of an 18th level party.  But I'd probably through an ECL 15 encounter at them first (9 + 36/6), just to make sure that they can handle it.


----------



## the Jester

Cheiromancer said:
			
		

> So a party of "20th level characters" (9th level + 36 feats) might be fairly matched by an ECL 18 encounter (9 + 36/4).




Just remember they would be overwhelmed by a CR 18 creature.


----------



## Cheiromancer

the Jester said:
			
		

> Just remember they would be overwhelmed by a CR 18 creature.




I suspect you are right. 

I'm not at all sure that Upper Krust's rule of 6 feats = 1 character level would give accurate results when the ratio of feats to character levels is so out of whack.


----------



## jdrakeh

I'm going to work on PDF-izing this over the weekend, formatting it for easy insertion (by way of glue stick) into the inside front and back covers of the PHB or DMG. That said. . . I'm going to stop short of making it available here (or at Miscellaneous Debris) until I get the official nod from Ry. So, if you want a copy for personal use, bug _him_


----------



## Emryys

rycanada said:
			
		

> ...why don't we just classify our suggestions and playtest experiences into BE6, CE6, and XE6?






			
				rycanada said:
			
		

> ...I think E6 + the regular gestalt rules (i.e. Gestalt LEvel 1, Gestalt Level 2, Gestalt level 3) would work very well, especially with a doubled EXP chart.






			
				jdrakeh said:
			
		

> I'm going to work on PDF-izing this over the weekend...




Remember, we've now got BE6, CE6, XE6 and GE6...


----------



## Ry

Pssst. James - let's msn or something about a .pdf when I'm back from this infernal vacation, OK?


----------



## MeepoDM

Akrasia said:
			
		

> This is a great idea!  If I ever DM 3e again, I'm definitely using this system.




Agreed, a really slick idea.  I did something quite similar earlier this year with the 1977 Holmes D&D set (level 6 max, options to purchase further abilities afterwards) and it was a big hit.  I ended up adding levels 7 & 8 eventually, with a more limited/slightly altered level 4 spell list, but 6 was my first goal and I preferred it for the same reasons you stated.  

But of course, hardly anyone plays Holmes D&D anymore and nearly everyone knows and prefers 3E!    I'd love to give this a whirl someday.

Thanks for sharing this idea with us, rycanada!


----------



## jdrakeh

rycanada said:
			
		

> Pssst. James - let's msn or something about a .pdf when I'm back from this infernal vacation, OK?




Will do. Like I said, for the time being, I'm only laying out something for _me_ (i.e., my personal use)


----------



## Thaedrus

*Infernal vacation in June?*

rycanada, I can't beleive you decided to vacation in hell during the summer. The airline rates may be slightly lower at that time, but you can usually find deals for winter vacations there, and lounging by a lake of fire is SOOOO much nicer when you have had to contend with winter weather for a while. I prefer my infernal vacations to be just after the new year, when I am tired of all the holiday crap anyway. Just a suggestion for next year.

Lee

ps. Stay away from unpeeled fruit. It can get you into trouble.


----------



## Ry

Thinking about XE6 - I think no matter what XE6 would be a bit of a kludge, but if I were to do it, I think I would suggest that each level be broken into 4 feats:

1)  Hit Die and Class/Character Level
2)  BAB and Saves
3)  Skills
4)  All other Class Features (incl. Spells)

With the idea being you have to take all 4 in the same class, and can only do one class for 7, and 1 class for 8.

What do people think of that approach for XE6?


----------



## Dragonblade275

rycanada said:
			
		

> What do people think of that approach for XE6?



Let me see if I understand...

XE6 still limits a character to 6th level max, but the XP needed for advancement is extended in some fashion.  Levels would be broken down into four parts as follows:

*LVL* *Benefit*
1.00 Normal for 1st level of character's race and class.
1.25 additional Hit Die
1.50 BAB and Saves
1.75 Skill Points
2.00 All other Class Features (incl. Spells)​And, then it would just be deciding on an XP Chart to use to determine XP needed for each level and stage of each level.

This would be tricky if multi-classing.  The new class would have to be declared at 1.25 and would be unchangable until 2.00.  Then, a new class could be declared at 2.25.

Am I understanding this correctly?

If so, this is essentially a 24 level game (6 levels x 4 lvl parts = 24) going epic at 25th level and then only gaining feats at 25th level and beyond.

The thing that I would want to add is to give an additional feat at the .75 part of each level.


----------



## Ry

XE6 is about having rules that allow characters to "pop the cap" at least up to 8th level power.  So I was thinking about each level as a 4-part feat chain, like this:

*Seventh-Level Advancement 1*
Choose a class.  You gain a hit die and your character level and class level raise as if you were one level higher in that class.  You gain no other benefits of levelling in that class.  
Special: The class a character uses for Seventh-Level Advancement 1 must be used for Seventh-Level Advancement 2, 3, and 4.

*Seventh-Level Advancement 2*
Prereq: Seventh-Level Advancement 1
For the class you chose for Seventh-Level Advancement 1, you gain any increased BAB and Saves as if you had taken a level in that class.  You gain no other benefits of levelling in that class.  
Special: The class a character uses for Seventh-Level Advancement 1 must be used for Seventh-Level Advancement 2, 3, and 4.

*Seventh-Level Advancement 3*
Prereq: Seventh-Level Advancement 2
For the class you chose for Seventh-Level Advancement 1, you gain any increased skill ranks and ranks available as if you had taken a level in that class.  You gain no other benefits of levelling in that class.  
Special: The class a character uses for Seventh-Level Advancement 1 must be used for Seventh-Level Advancement 2, 3, and 4.

*Seventh-Level Advancement 4*
Prereq: Seventh-Level Advancement 3
For the class you chose for Seventh-Level Advancement 1, you gain any benefit of taking a level in that class that you have not already received from Seventh-Level Advancement 1, 2, or 3.  You gain no other benefits of levelling in that class.  
Special: The class a character uses for Seventh-Level Advancement 1 must be used for Seventh-Level Advancement 2, 3, and 4.


----------



## Ry

Character Level 6th should be a requirement up there, BTW.


----------



## Dragonblade275

OK... So the four part progression wouldn't start until 6th level was attained.  I think I've got it, now.

So, the character can still gain levels at 1/4th the normal pace after 6th level by buying each part of the level with a feat.

_I *REALLY* like that!_


----------



## Ry

That also leaves the power in the hands of the players GM.

"Hey guys, I know you guys are having a good time but you've all taken twenty feats and there's been some comments about chafing against the level cap.  Well... I've certainly got a lot more used to running D&D monsters on the fly and there's a few crazy challenges I'd like to throw at you.  So what say we add these 8 feats to the mix?"


----------



## Aegir

I'd actually like that better if the Lv 7-8 feats allowed some expanded functionality.

I mentioned it above, the idea of making the PrCs that'd be accessable to Lv 6 PCs into feat chains, so what about doing that here? Use Lv 7 feats to take the first level of a PrC, which gives access to the "PrC feats" which are essentially the class abilities of that PrC.

In essence, you could use the Lv 7 and 8 feats (and potentially your Lv 6 in certain cases) to gain access to the abilities of PrCs without actually gaining their levels (aside from Lv 1).


----------



## Dragonblade275

That's good.

That's also a solution to the problem of gaining levels too quickly that I hadn't really thought of.  It's better than just cutting XP awards or modifying the XP chart to slow advancement because the players still get something at regular intervals (even if it's not a full-blown level).

Did I mention that I really like this idea?


----------



## Ry

That's a great way of putting it Aegir.  You'd have to do the feat reqs on a case-by-case basis, but I think that would be totally workable - the thing to keep in mind is that some PrCs are about class abilities, but other ones are shored up by strong saves, good spell progression, etc.


----------



## Ry

Thanks Dragonblade - the thing about doing these other things with Feats instead of messing with other parts of the system is that feats, if they don't work out in a particular case, are less controversial to tweak than, say, the XP table.  If you find out that the XP table, or stats, or whatever else you've changed doesn't work for some players, it's a big deal to change it because it then affects everyone - and sometimes has effects that cascade through the system.  

I have found that if a feat is too good, it's not that big a deal to say "Hey Ned, I think the feat I made for you is too good, but I don't want to take it away from you.  I think it should have a prerequisite, like Skill Focus (Knowledge - nature) instead of being straight-up available.  I'd like to leave you with it but say that your next feat needs to be that knowledge thing, rather than take it away now.  We could do that, or if you want you could swap it out for something else.  What do you think?"


----------



## Aegir

rycanada said:
			
		

> That's a great way of putting it Aegir.  You'd have to do the feat reqs on a case-by-case basis, but I think that would be totally workable - the thing to keep in mind is that some PrCs are about class abilities, but other ones are shored up by strong saves, good spell progression, etc.




Well, obviously this would make certain PrCs non-viable; Eldritch Knight for example would only be viable if the feat chain allowed spell progression (which would sorta defeat the purpose of the system). But (and I realize this isn't a PrC, but go with me), if you were to allow through feat chain for a Dread Necro 6 to continue the class two more levels, then through feat chain the completion of his transformation into a Lich...

Or, for a better example, allow the Lv 7 feats to take the first level of Acolyte of the Skin, and through feat chain he can complete the PrC and finally reach Fiendish Symbiosis


----------



## Ry

TonyTempest said:
			
		

> I had tried to do something like this myself.  I was never able to test it, but it broke down to characters being 9-10th level and then only advancing bit by bit.  It was created for a PBEM where I've noticed advancing is slow, so I did this.  While the characters may remain at the level they are, advancement will not stop. I will be rewarding Class Points that the players can use to improve any number of a character’s aspects. Whether it is adding class abilities, improving attributes, adding skills or adding feats, Class Points are spent in the stead of an all at once improvement that a level in a class provides.





Hey David, sounds like what you started with was basically the same aims that I had back 2 years ago before E6 was E6.  At that time, I worked up these complex gestalt XP-buy rules, but eventually my players and I realized that with all the options available all that was really getting used were feat purchasing, because they were so easy to approach.


----------



## Ry

green slime said:
			
		

> A valid question then becomes: If it is valid for a multiclassed spellcaster to continue to develop spellcasting ability in a class they apparently showed little favour in while developing, shouldn't it also be valid for a 1st Wizard / 4th Cleric / 1st Fighter character to gain access to Weapon Specialisation, and eventually BAB +6 and the iterative attack it implies?!?




My rule of thumb is this:  If you could build a 6th-level character with some ability, then I think it should be fair game for that ability to be at the end of a feat chain.  So there should be feats to get your BAB to +6, get a class skill that was cross-class, get Weapon Spec (although the prereqs for that one would be funky) and so on.  Balancing such a feat chain against other feats available at sixth level is a topic of considerable debate - but I think that's a good guiding principle.

Those feat chains are really what fills out E6 (of whatever variety).  The problem is that a lot of the best solutions are in proprietary places, like the Book of Unusual Feats by philreed (a.k.a. Phil Reed) or WotC splats.

As an aside: I'm trying to go back and respond to the points I've missed.  If I miss your point or don't respond to an issue you think needs attention.


----------



## Ry

Koewn said:
			
		

> OK, just to throw this out visually, this should be, I hope, the expected number of feats for an E6 character compared to the level of a normal DND character, based on XP earned.
> 
> Note everything at and prior to 6 is the normal character-level feats. After that, look at it go! I'm hoping this is right.




Koewn, does this chart take into consideration the idea that the characters are still using the lower-level XP chart?  As for more detail of how to calculate that, I've no idea.  But I'd consider giving 300*CR = XP as the players start to drift upwards from 6th.


----------



## Ry

jdrakeh said:
			
		

> Man. This is _gold_. I have a very tight day to day schedule which really makes it hard for me to fit in rules-heavy games like D&D, so this is just what the doctor ordered




That's the idea - also, recruiting from D&D player base isn't too hard.  Those who crave high-level know it's not their tastes, and the others seem highly interested.


----------



## Ry

Akrasia said:
			
		

> This is a great idea!  If I ever DM 3e again, I'm definitely using this system.




Thanks Akrasia!  Let me know if you are going to do so - I'm hugely interested in how it works in other GMs' hands.


----------



## Ry

TonyTempest said:
			
		

> I immediately began thinking of higher level spells as being the dark mysterious, things man was not meant to know, found in books in long lost libraries.  But, these spells would have to be cast in ritual, which is a pretty traditional fantasy staple.  If a group of casters can cast spells at higher levels than any individual, you open up the villain possibilities to cultists trying to cast a high level summoning.  In this case your heroes would have to stop the cultists, because there would be no way they could stop whatever it is the cultists wish to stop.




Exactly!


----------



## Ry

knight_isa said:
			
		

> That's a good idea.  It's probably a good idea for standard D&D, too.




This brings up a good point:  E6 will always inherit D&D's balance issues in the same level range.  On one hand, these issues are mostly orthogonal to E6 - it's meant to stay simple and doesn't try to be a fix for everything.  On the other hand (as we're talking about multiclass characters), these issues have a big impact on what we think is a balanced E6 feat and what isn't.


----------



## Koewn

rycanada said:
			
		

> Koewn, does this chart take into consideration the idea that the characters are still using the lower-level XP chart?  As for more detail of how to calculate that, I've no idea.  But I'd consider giving 300*CR = XP as the players start to drift upwards from 6th.




Hrm. Shoot, I added that up all wrong anyway. I'll fix it a bit later. I accidently did 3000 XP per feat, not 5000 XP per feat. Dur.

The table itself is just a direct translation of the PHB's XP-by-level tables, into feats-earned.

I may have missed what the "lower-level XP chart" was defined as earlier?


----------



## Ry

MeepoDM said:
			
		

> Thanks for sharing this idea with us, rycanada!




My pleasure Meepo!  The great thing about this is that depending on how you want to approach it you can still tailor your campaign by what feats you allow.


----------



## Ry

Koewn said:
			
		

> Hrm. Shoot, I added that up all wrong anyway. I'll fix it a bit later. I accidently did 3000 XP per feat, not 5000 XP per feat. Dur.
> 
> The table itself is just a direct translation of the PHB's XP-by-level tables, into feats-earned.
> 
> I may have missed what the "lower-level XP chart" was defined as earlier?



Just that players will be earning XP as 6th-level characters throughout their "epic" careers (at least in BE6/CE6, XE6 is making my head hurt thinking about it).  So if they take on a CR 10 monster they get much more for it than a Level 15 character would in D&D, but probably do that less often.


----------



## TonyTempest

rycanada said:
			
		

> Hey David, sounds like what you started with was basically the same aims that I had back 2 years ago before E6 was E6.  At that time, I worked up these complex gestalt XP-buy rules, but eventually my players and I realized that with all the options available all that was really getting used were feat purchasing, because they were so easy to approach.



 Yes, after seeing this post (I was introduced to it at RPG.net, cause I missed it over here) I saw that it was what I wanted to have happen with my "rules". After reading the follow up posts I realized that characters could advance any aspect of their character sheet with feats that already exist, such as Open Minded (Complete Adv, XPH) for 5 skill points, and others that were mentioned or invented.  It's way less complicated.  

david


----------



## Ry

TonyTempest said:
			
		

> Yes, after seeing this post (I was introduced to it at RPG.net, cause I missed it over here) I saw that it was what I wanted to have happen with my "rules". After reading the follow up posts I realized that characters could advance any aspect of their character sheet with feats that already exist, such as Open Minded (Complete Adv, XPH) for 5 skill points, and others that were mentioned or invented.  It's way less complicated.




One other thing it can handle:  I had one player who just couldn't stop talking about how AE would let his character combine slots up on a 3:1 ratio and split down on a 1:2 ratio.

I made it into a feat.

Feats not being in short supply, it was the next one he took.


----------



## Aegir

rycanada said:
			
		

> One other thing it can handle:  I had one player who just couldn't stop talking about how AE would let his character combine slots up on a 3:1 ratio and split down on a 1:2 ratio.




Indeed, I love AE, as well as Iron Heroes (in fact, ever since I played an AE Magister, I can't bring myself to play a D&D wizard/sorcerer, it just feels clunky by comparison). In fact, I'm entertaining adapting this system to AE, and possibly even an AE/IH hybrid.


----------



## Ry

There's another thing: If you want to pull things from different sources, but you have worries about how the balance works around, say, 12th level... well, you can stop worrying 

There's a lot of considerations about how these different options do or don't work together (for example, what if you up you multiclass, take feats to catch up your casting, then take 7th level with your caster class?  I think we all know what we'd suggest, but it starts to get clunky), and the more I look at them the more I think the best way to do E6 would be to take Basic E6 and then make the rest of the decisions based on your group.  

That nicely comes back to why I came back to E6 after spending ages devving my own RPG: Sometimes it just has to be close enough, and it's time to stop devving, stop building, stop putting off the session because you're not ready, and get playing.


----------



## Dragonblade275

rycanada said:
			
		

> Thanks Dragonblade - the thing about doing these other things with Feats instead of messing with other parts of the system is that feats, if they don't work out in a particular case, are less controversial to tweak than, say, the XP table.  If you find out that the XP table, or stats, or whatever else you've changed doesn't work for some players, it's a big deal to change it because it then affects everyone - and sometimes has effects that cascade through the system.
> 
> I have found that if a feat is too good, it's not that big a deal to say "Hey Ned, I think the feat I made for you is too good, but I don't want to take it away from you.  I think it should have a prerequisite, like Skill Focus (Knowledge - nature) instead of being straight-up available.  I'd like to leave you with it but say that your next feat needs to be that knowledge thing, rather than take it away now.  We could do that, or if you want you could swap it out for something else.  What do you think?"



I can agree with that.

I forgot that changing the XP table affects other things throughout the game.  So, about the only thing to do to slow advancement other than going epic after 6th is to cut the XP awards a bit... especially after 6th level.


----------



## Dragonblade275

Code:
	

LVL	XP Stndrd  XE6    Feats
1	0	
2	1,000	
3	3,000	
4	6,000	
5	10,000	
6	15,000	
		20,000    1
		25,000    2
		30,000    3
7	21,000	35,000    4
		40,000    5
		45,000    6
		50,000    7
8	28,000	55,000    8
		60,000    9
		65,000    10
		70,000    11
9	36,000	75,000    12
		80,000    13
		85,000    14
		90,000    15
10	45,000	95,000    16
		100,000   17
		105,000   18
		110,000   19
11	55,000	115,000   20
		120,000   21
		125,000   22
		130,000   23
12	66,000	135,000   24
		140,000   25
		145,000   26
		150,000   27
13	78,000	155,000   28
		160,000   29
		165,000   30
		170,000   31
14	91,000	175,000   32
		180,000   33
		185,000   34
		190,000   35
15	105,000	195,000   36
		200,000   37
		205,000   38
		210,000   39
16	120,000	215,000   40
		220,000   41
		225,000   42
		230,000   43
17	136,000	235,000   44
		240,000   45
		245,000   46
		250,000   47
18	153,000	255,000   48
		260,000   49
		265,000   50
		270,000   51
19	171,000	275,000   52
		280,000   53
		285,000   54
		290,000   55
20	190,000	295,000   56

So, by the time a character gains the equivalent of 20th level in XE6 terms (at four feats to the level), he will have earned 295,000 XP compared to the standard 190,000 XP.  But instead of being 20th level with extra feats (by the standard rules), the character would be 6th level with *56* additional feats.

It would take ALL 56 of these feats to build the equivalent of a 20th level character as defined in the core rules (and maybe 7-12 more depending upon how the bonus feats and ability boosts from XP & Level Dependent Benefits table in the PHB were handled).

Ry, how do you handle increasing ability scores after 6th level?


----------



## Ry

For ability scores, see the first post in the FAQ.  There's a 2-feat feat chain that you can take once per ability score to get +2.


----------



## Dragonblade275

Thanks.

What was your rational behind requiring two feats to improve the ability score by 2 points as opposed to one feat to improve the score by only one point?

Also, why not let the feat stack if taken multiple times?


----------



## Koewn

rycanada said:
			
		

> Just that players will be earning XP as 6th-level characters throughout their "epic" careers (at least in BE6/CE6, XE6 is making my head hurt thinking about it).  So if they take on a CR 10 monster they get much more for it than a Level 15 character would in D&D, but probably do that less often.




OK. That won't effect their actual XP totals, it just takes longer to get there. My table was showing how many feats a character with (x) amount of XP would have, and comparing that with the standard DND level they'd be at.

Looks like the table was already redone, anyway.


----------



## PoeticJustice

I don't know if I'll ever play this method of D&D, but it seems like the low level cap is the strength of the venture; if one attempts to remove or lessen it then they may as well be playing regular D&D. 
Actually, it feels like a half-assed compromise between the two. You should either be cool with level 7+ characters or not. Once the guiding principle is compromised, it will be very hard to convince a group that it ever had merit.


----------



## Aegir

Even if I never use this as written (for stopping at Lv 6), its pretty much sold me as a replacement for the horrid system that is epic rules. However, right now I'm entertaining a complete scrapping of the level system (which this all but does anyway) in favor of some sort of skill-based system.

I'm not sure how doable it is while keeping it basically d20, but thats my goal.


----------



## Ry

PoeticJustice said:
			
		

> I don't know if I'll ever play this method of D&D, but it seems like the low level cap is the strength of the venture; if one attempts to remove or lessen it then they may as well be playing regular D&D.
> Actually, it feels like a half-assed compromise between the two. You should either be cool with level 7+ characters or not. Once the guiding principle is compromised, it will be very hard to convince a group that it ever had merit.




I agree with that, PoeticJustice.  The feats I was trying to put up above was attempting a fix for those who still wanted a little more progression.  

But that said, I'm going to be sticking to 6th plus feats for my game, and that's really what E6 _is_.  There's a lot of feats out there (some third party, some WotC splat) for multiclass characters, and for sorcerers to gain spells, and so on and so on.  I believe that the best approach is to use the cap as a cap, and deal with other issues as you go.

But some disagree.  Since there was immediately a lot of discussion of how to stretch it a bit further I thought I'd try to throw out suggestions just like I would for any house rules thread I was following.  

The downside of that is that I kind of hate the feats I wrote once I came back at them a few hours later.  There's a can of worms that it opens that I had just gotten closed when I went back to feats. 

As for 2 feats for 1 stat point rather than 1 feat for 1 stat point:  You can go either way.  This depends on whether you think ability scores or ability modifiers are more important.  To me, it's all about the modifiers, and a +1 modifier is worth 2 feats IMO.


----------



## Dragonblade275

I talked this over with my longest running player.  I wasn't able to convince him of the merits of this idea.  Of course, he's currently working on a 4th level character with plans to multiclass into about 3 classes.  And, at 4 feats to gain the equivalent of a level (after 6th), he thought it would be very hard to accomplish what he wanted to do.

Since we're playing through _The Shackled City _ with a lot of extra random encounters and side-ventures, it still looks like my best option is going to be cutting back on XP awards to keep the characters' levels in line with where they need to be story-wise at each stage in the adventure path.

Ry?  I think I remember you discussing your group going through _The Shackled City._  Did you use E6 when you went through it?  Did you go all the way through?  In short, will E6 work to go through a published adventure path that is written for characters that would normally advance to 20th level?  In practice, is 6th plus X number of feats ever able to take on the challenges that would be faced by a twentieth level character?


----------



## PoeticJustice

To be honest I'm glad you don't feel like I overstepped my bounds, and to clarify, I think that "epic" play and this method go in two opposite directions.

By definition, epic play never really ends. It goes and goes without regard for the imbalances in the system, patching where needed.

E6 freezes the moment where things get most interesting and has a really interesting way of doing it. Rather than calling it a cap, think that level six is as strong as any mortal is capable of achieving. Spells beyond 3rd level snap the mortal mind, and no mortal swordsman is more than +5 Bab away from the most skilled of his entire race. 

There is simply no way to become more skilled. To introduce an epic element to the above scenario doesn't make a lot of sense when the framework from which the scenario is built already assumes characters will get a lot more powerful and consciously removes that assumption.


----------



## Dragonblade275

I agree with what you're saying, PoeticJustice.  Using feats to gain levels even at a 4 to 1 ratio means that there will still be many mortals higher than 6th level.  It definitely compromises the beauty of the original idea.

And, for me, it doesn't work real well because I'm using mainly published d20 adventures (like _The Shackled City_) that are built around the standard core rules.  My best option to extend the sweet spot still seems to be reducing XP awards in order to allow more combat encounters like my group likes.

I can really see this working well in a home-brewed world, though.  I would also use it if I was going to model adventure stories on _The Death Dealer_ (Frazetta/Silke) and/or Howard's _Conan_ stories.  Both of those heroes seem to have more feats than normal without really being really high level.

Another character that comes to mind that could probably be modelled well in E6 would be Batman.  Lots of skills and feats while still being mortal.  Sure, he's the elite of the elite among humans, but there's no real reason that he would have to be 20th level.  E6+feats would model him pretty well.

E6 seems more like the fiction that I'm used to.  That's what I like about it.  If I could only convince my players to try it...


----------



## Ry

Dragonblade275 said:
			
		

> In practice, is 6th plus X number of feats ever able to take on the challenges that would be faced by a twentieth level character?




No, they won't.  E6 characters can't take on CR 20 monsters - if they could, they'd have to have the abilities to match Level 20 D&D characters.  That's by design (see the first post and the link at the top of it to the discussion of 4 different quartiles of D&D).  

E6 tells its heroic story on a different scale than D&D.  In E6, characters come into their own over levels 1 to 6, then grow incrementally, learning new tricks and techniques and so on.

[sblock='Shackled City Spoilers']Shackled City was the very, very end of my last E6 campaign and as such I only finished the first adventure and started the second.  But here's some notes for the upper levels:

Fetor Abradius should be a fiendish 6th-level wizard plus feats. The beholder should never - and I mean NEVER - get upgraded like he does in Shackled City.  In fact, I'd probably use a Gauth and add a template and some feats to THAT.  The clerics of Wee Jas are 6th+20.  The demodands I'd do as various kinds of fiendish or half-fiend troglodytes.  Dark Myrakul I'd do as a 6th-level necromancer loaded with feats and give him the Bone Creature template and a large number of feats (he's a lich after all, he's been around for a while).  

Most of the magic items in Shackled City don't exist.  Even the wands of control water I don't think can be made with standard rules (I don't have my PHB), which makes those rods of flood control even more important.

Adimarchus is tough.  He's the end of a long road, and you've got to make him count.  I'd look for something like a 6th-level half-celestial paladin/cleric gestalt with loads of feats for one form (reversing the alignment but keeping him leaning towards healing and such) and a 6th-level half-demon sorcerer/barbarian gestalt for the other form.[/sblock]

Now that the stats and buffs and conditions will be easier to manage, take a look at what else you can do to make the game exciting.  Put a fight - even a minor one - in an exciting location, like next to a short cliff.  Focus on bringing in elements that will give the players something to work with.


----------



## Ry

PoeticJustice said:
			
		

> I think that "epic" play and this method go in two opposite directions.  By definition, epic play never really ends. It goes and goes without regard for the imbalances in the system, patching where needed.




I think we can agree to disagree on what "epic" means.    I agree that it never really ends, but that doesn't mean levels, IMO - I think feats are a superior method and allow the campaign to remain heroic and exciting (my other favorite definition of epic) throughout the game.



			
				PoeticJustice said:
			
		

> Rather than calling it a cap, think that level six is as strong as any mortal is capable of achieving. Spells beyond 3rd level snap the mortal mind, and no mortal swordsman is more than +5 Bab away from the most skilled of his entire race.




You've nailed it right there.  Of course, there are some master swordsmen who know a lot of tricks; they've picked up improved sunder, improved disarm, and so on and so on.  But that's not an order of magnitude difference in power.


----------



## Ry

Aegir said:
			
		

> Even if I never use this as written (for stopping at Lv 6), its pretty much sold me as a replacement for the horrid system that is epic rules. However, right now I'm entertaining a complete scrapping of the level system (which this all but does anyway) in favor of some sort of skill-based system.
> 
> I'm not sure how doable it is while keeping it basically d20, but thats my goal.




I'd consider how much time this will take very carefully:  Do you have a playtesting base beyond your group?  How often do you play?  A big revision will require lots of playtesting - ramifications of any system are hard to gauge at the beginning.

I try to think about it like this:  If I were paid $1 / hour for anything else, I wouldn't do it.  But making a system that big will probably take more than 15 hours of work.  How much is a product like Buy the Numbers?  I'd get a system that's close enough, but not 'perfect' (nothing ever is) and put my energy into running games, scheduling with my crew, and maybe even checking out a local D&D meetup.


----------



## Ry

Dragonblade275 said:
			
		

> I agree with what you're saying, PoeticJustice.  Using feats to gain levels even at a 4 to 1 ratio means that there will still be many mortals higher than 6th level.  It definitely compromises the beauty of the original idea.




FYI: I was originally intending those feats as just for levels 7 and 8.  

As for your other issues: There's 2 things about selling E6, at least as I've gathered here.  

The first is really getting an idea of what E6 is, and I think this part includes making E6 part of the world assumptions.  See what I wrote about Shackled City in the spoiler tag as a way of looking at it.

The second is talking about what the benefits of that approach are.  For example, if you could prep a campaign in half the time, maybe you could play more often?  Let's say players take a detour through a side-quest and come out on the other side too tough for the villain.  In E6 this is a matter of picking a few more feats (ability-ability is a cinch).  

If your players like lots of combat, what about the fact that E6 lets you use mooks and tactics instead of ever-more-intricate-combos of buffs and special abilities?

Food for thought.


----------



## Ry

I'm trying to think of how to best proceed:

On one hand, converting adventures has some appeal, it gives me a base to work from.

On the other hand, one of the major things I've been stressing about E6 is building it into the world assumptions.  Part of me thinks I should just start cranking out an E6 setting.  If I did that, it would be a "setting" in the same sense as Barakus or Ptolus - the kind of setting that is really an adventure, or the kind of adventure that doubles as a setting.

Thoughts?


----------



## MeepoDM

Wow, after reading up at rpg.net, therpgsite.com, and the giants boards, it certainly seems to be either a love it or hate it idea, doesn't it...  :\  Personally I think it is a clever idea, one I could see running as I agree on the idea of the sweet spot (my sweet spot, anyway) being right in that range.  And a world where Animate Dead is truly a dark and scary thing to witness instead of a casual "hey who wants some free followers?" deal is pretty cool.



			
				rycanada said:
			
		

> I'm trying to think of how to best proceed:
> 
> <snip>
> 
> Thoughts?




Honestly, I'd go all in and do the "setting as an adventure" deal.  It would set a precedent by the creator, being an excellent example to everyone (even the naysayers) on all the ideas you've mentioned and would show the system (and even the FAQ) at its finest.


----------



## ColonelHardisson

Out of curiosity, and not to threadcrap on the general E6 system, but what about using the NPC classes for a less power-oriented, grittier game? I don't think one would have to cap levels with them, as they gain power much more gradually, they harken back to the less complex character classes of older editions of D&D, and they aren't overwhelmingly powerful even at 20th level. Goose up the skill points given per level and increase the rate of feat acquisition if what the NPC classes already get are too few.


----------



## Dragonblade275

rycanada said:
			
		

> No, they won't.  E6 characters can't take on CR 20 monsters - if they could, they'd have to have the abilities to match Level 20 D&D characters.  That's by design (see the first post and the link at the top of it to the discussion of 4 different quartiles of D&D).
> 
> E6 tells its heroic story on a different scale than D&D.  In E6, characters come into their own over levels 1 to 6, then grow incrementally, learning new tricks and techniques and so on.



That's what I was thinking.  The notes you made on _The Shackled City_ showed that a lot of the enemies at higher levels would have to be rewritten to use E6.  And, though I like to spend time working on DnD, I don't want to have to rewrite published adventures to make them work with the system that I'm using.

So, if I use E6, it will be after the completion of _The Shackled City._  Perhaps, some great catyclism will strike the world and high level magics will no longer be possible for mortals (using the cyclical theory of power variance among mortals over the ages idea).

To me, E6 is what DnD should have been.  It matches with the power levels of the stories from which the game was inspired.  I'll definitely keep reading and thinking about E6 (and I especially like the idea of Gestalt E6).  

Hopefully I'll be able to sell the idea to my group at some point.  I'm in agreement with the idea that the major part of selling this idea is that the players HAVE TO understand that all mortals in the game world are bound by these same rules.  No one has achieved anything more powerful than 6th level plus bonus feats.  

It's impossible to seperate the rules system for E6 from the setting.  So, when the homeworld moves through the proper constellations and the present waxing of mortal power begins to wane, perhaps then E6 will be the system that governs the power of mortals in the realm.


----------



## Ry

ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> Out of curiosity, and not to threadcrap on the general E6 system, but what about using the NPC classes for a less power-oriented, grittier game?




Could work; not really my style though.  I think that would be a great way to run 2e and 1e modules in 3e, though.  But I think if I tried to approach that question, I'd start with a little tinkering, then tinker more, then tinker more... and of course, there isn't the CL6th limit like in E6 policing magic item acquisition.

My main thing is: I've gotten this to work, and I think the approach has generated some interest, so at least here I'm going to keep it up.


----------



## Ry

Dragonblade275 said:
			
		

> The notes you made on _The Shackled City_ showed that a lot of the enemies at higher levels would have to be rewritten to use E6.  And, though I like to spend time working on DnD, I don't want to have to rewrite published adventures to make them work with the system that I'm using.




Fair enough.  The flip side is to use published adventures that go in the 1 to 10 range instead of 1 to 20.  Have you run characters all the way to 20 before?



> No one has achieved anything more powerful than 6th level plus bonus feats.




Another way of putting it:  Mortals have conquered nations, battled demons, and discovered powerful magics.  But the rules we use to show how they did that don't include Wishes, Ressurections, and Astral Projection.  I wouldn't even put it in terms of "mortal power has waned" - just that your badass doesn't ignore poisons, and isn't merely annoyed when a mob of angry 1st-level commoners comes after him with pitchforks.  That's not "mortal power waning" - that's "translating our favorite fantasy books and movies into an RPG"


----------



## wolfpunk

How rare is it for people to reach 6th level? Meaning is this version of d&d supposed to be significantly more deadly, making sixth level characters rare, and characters with a significant amount of feats truly epic?


----------



## green slime

rycanada said:
			
		

> green_slime, for Gorgnard are you sure all those items can be made under the cap?




That depends on how the "cap" is interpreted. As the official line is that the creator level as described in the DMG is only a guideline as to when the "average" such item would be created, in order to determine item saving throws, rather than a firm requirement for production of said item, yes. 

But if you take the other, common, interpretation, that the CL is a requirement, rather than a guideline, then no.


----------



## mfrench

rycanada said:
			
		

> If I did that, it would be a "setting" in the same sense as Barakus or Ptolus - the kind of setting that is really an adventure, or the kind of adventure that doubles as a setting.
> 
> Thoughts?




I've been trying to work out an adventure path based mainly on the WotC free adventures, as well as a handful of published adventures and the dozen or so Dungeon issues that I have.  Specifically, the stuff on G's Gauntlet Expanded and the post in How to Create Depth in Worldbuilding have been driving the development.  I've been planning to start a new thread on it all weekend, but haven't got around to it yet.


----------



## Dragonblade275

rycanada said:
			
		

> Fair enough.  The flip side is to use published adventures that go in the 1 to 10 range instead of 1 to 20.  Have you run characters all the way to 20 before?



No.  Not in 3rd edition.  We played really high level play in AD&D first edition.  The characters were very similar to some of the greater gods in _Lengends & Lore_ when we finished up.  WAY TO POWERFUL!  But, we were kids having fun.

In 3rd edition, we haven't tried anything higher than 12th level.  And, that was only one weekend and our 12th level fighter and paladin won a couple of balanced encounters before getting killed by a group of demons in some Norse-like icy labrynth.

Running characters and monsters at above 6th level in 3.5 likely means that I'll have the problem that you've discussed in previous threads:  Not really knowing how to use the monsters right and not knowing what their abilities actually are without taking time to reference them.  In _The Shackled City_, I'm taking quite a bit of time to examine all the monsters before hand.  Most of the monsters we've faced so far (other than goblins) have been unusual ones for us.  _The Shackled City_ is our first 3.5 adventure that we plan to take all the way through to 20th level and possibly beyond.


----------



## Dragonblade275

rycanada said:
			
		

> Another way of putting it:  Mortals have conquered nations, battled demons, and discovered powerful magics.  But the rules we use to show how they did that don't include Wishes, Ressurections, and Astral Projection.  I wouldn't even put it in terms of "mortal power has waned" - just that your badass doesn't ignore poisons, and isn't merely annoyed when a mob of angry 1st-level commoners comes after him with pitchforks.  That's not "mortal power waning" - that's "translating our favorite fantasy books and movies into an RPG"



I really agree with you on that.  I really think E6 is just what the doctor ordered for DnD.  I just hope that I'm able to convince my players to give it a try.


----------



## Dragonblade275

wolfpunk said:
			
		

> How rare is it for people to reach 6th level? Meaning is this version of d&d supposed to be significantly more deadly, making sixth level characters rare, and characters with a significant amount of feats truly epic?



Wolfpunk,

Here is a somewhat lengthy but very good explanation of the answer to your question.  It was posted in an earlier E6 thread.

*D&D: Calibrating Your Expectations*​
I really think this explains the beauty of E6 in great detail.


----------



## wolfpunk

Thanks, Dragonblade,that is a great article.


Question, has anyone thought of letting a character who takes levels in their favored class to gain one level in that class above the level 6 maximum? For example, a dwarf could be a level 7 fighter, a half orc could be a level 7 barbarian. Humans and Half-elves could take 1 extra level of whatever class they took at first level.

I know this would allow human and half-elf to access fourth level divine spells, and allow human, half-elf, and elf wizards access to fourth level arcane spells.

This could be handled a couple of ways. First option, fourth level slots are usable for meta-magic feats, this would work the same for both arcane and divine casters. A second option for wizards could be that they could cast the spell, but they would have to find the spell in some ancient tome in a dragon hoard or some such place, making fourth level spells truly rare.

This would allow to six new magical weapon qualities out of the DMG, none of which seem to be overly game killing.


----------



## GrolloStoutfoam

Wolfpunk, I really love that idea.  My DM and I are trying to convince our group to use this system and I know their hesitance is a result that the other players just do not realize the rest of the world plays by the same rules.  They believe we will be stuck at 6th level while the DM throws 10th level bad guy clerics at us.  Ah if only everyone in the world saw things through my eyes (sarcasm btw, please no flames.   )

I'm going to be sending everyone in the group the link to this thread and the calibrating D&D (that was phenomenal, thanks for finding that Dragonblade275).  Makes sense Hercules is a 6th (or 7th) level fighter, 20 STR.  A (demi)god among mortals.


----------



## Aegir

rycanada said:
			
		

> Part of me thinks I should just start cranking out an E6 setting.




That probably is a way to go, and keeping with what seems to have become the theme for E6, it should be a community project. It could start with a sort of outline, basically an outline of what a world governed by E6 rules would be like.

Me personally, I suspect it'd be more "real," meaning instead of the world being defined by a handfull of uber powerful characters, likely power would be defined by ownership of land, control of armies, nations, economies, and who holds land, sea, and possibly air superiority. 

Magic would certainly have some "mass destruction" ability, but most of it would be stripped away from a world that caps out at fireball and lightning bolt. Certainly mages would be powerful soldiers, but their ability to fell entire armies would be severely limited. I could see this world replacing the usual small group of powerful mages with legions, where war wizards are more like archers then nuclear weapons.

For example, if you were assuming this world's races were all your standard races (Elves, Dwarves, Humans, etc), I suspect Orcs would be an incredibly powerful force, simply by their sheer numbers, followed closely by humans, as they tend to be nearly as quick to multiply, but more intelligent. Elves typically depend on magic and their connection to nature, so they'd likely be a highly defensive race, holding small, heavily defended forest strongholds with regimens of wizards and archers.

Thats... very Forgotten Realms. but then, the way Faerun is designed given its power level is a little odd anyway.

So... just getting the ball (and creative juices) rolling.


----------



## wolfpunk

GrolloStoutfoam thanks, it was just a thought, but certainly gives some real advantage to the favored class.

I talked to my group about it, and they are a little to high level happy to go for it long term I think.  I am trying to help them understand that the game isn't any different for the first six levels of play, and that after that, they will be some of the strongest characters in the world.

They point out that balors, dragons, titans, and so on will be unbeatable. I point out that for the most part, they should be. I took time to point out all the creatures that the DMG shows experience for 6-th 7th level characters going all the way up to CR 13-14. That covers probably two thirds of the monster manual's monsters.

The only hiccup I as a DM am having is with the disappearance of magical items like rings and staves.


----------



## GrolloStoutfoam

wolfpunk said:
			
		

> The only hiccup I as a DM am having is with the disappearance of magical items like rings and staves.




You're welcome wolfpunk!  One of our group pointed out this shortcoming as well and I thought it could be countered with pre-req feats rather then a caster level requirement.  Maybe craft:rods require craft:wands and craft:staves would require both wands and rods.  Craft:Ring would require the maker to have craft:Wondrous item and craft:Magic arms/armor instead.

Kinda makes staves and rings powerful, wondrous, something to be treasured and feared (ala Lord of the Rings).

Gods, I want to play this system so bad I'm thinking of starting another group! (my wife would kill me  :\  ... unless I could get her to play     )


----------



## wolfpunk

I have been looking at the CL requirements and many of the rings have a CL of 7th or lower. I am tempted to roll Forge Ring into the Craft Wonderous Item feat, and allow players to craft any ring that they meet the CL of.

Crafting Rods and Staves seems to be out of the picture. The lowest staves have a CL of 8.


----------



## Dragonblade275

wolfpunk said:
			
		

> Thanks, Dragonblade,that is a great article.



You're welcome.  Glad you liked it.


			
				wolfpunk said:
			
		

> Question, has anyone thought of letting a character who takes levels in their favored class to gain one level in that class above the level 6 maximum? For example, a dwarf could be a level 7 fighter, a half orc could be a level 7 barbarian. Humans and Half-elves could take 1 extra level of whatever class they took at first level.



This is the first I've heard of it.  I wonder if Ry has thought of it?

I think that could be a decent prerequisite to Ry's feat chain for 7th level earlier in this thread... In other words, the 7th level could only be taken in the character's race's favored class and it would take four feats to do it... 20,000 XP instead of the usual amount to gain 7th level.

I hope Ry weighs in on this.


----------



## wolfpunk

If the idea of a 7th level was allow, I am assuming it would work like this, character has 15,000 XP and is now 6th level, upon gaining another 20,000 XP for a total of 35,000 XP and gains the benefits of a seventh level in their favored class. They then gain a bonus feat every 5,000 XP thereafter, starting with the first at 40,000 XP.


What if the player wanted to make a dwarven fighter 3/rogue 3, could they then take a fourth level of fighter? Or is it strictly for characters that take all 6 levels in a favored class?

The benefits I see would be extra hit dice, extra skill points and higher max ranks in class skills, possible bab increase, possible access to higher level spells/slots, extra class abilities.


----------



## GrolloStoutfoam

wolfpunk said:
			
		

> What if the player wanted to make a dwarven fighter 3/rogue 3, could they then take a fourth level of fighter? Or is it strictly for characters that take all 6 levels in a favored class?
> 
> The benefits I see would be extra hit dice, extra skill points and higher max ranks in class skills, possible bab increase, possible access to higher level spells/slots, extra class abilities.




My inclination is only to allow characters who have all 6 of their levels in their favored class.  Multiclassing has it's own benefits and I think a reward for someone who stays with the favored class would be warranted.  This may be type casting but there is a reason why dwarves are such fearsome fighters in fantasy novels and movies.

Granted it allows any and all options for humans and half-elves but IMO it balances against all the racial abilities of the others. (I only have core books, but that is all I've ever really needed    )


----------



## Aegir

One thought regarding this system is how saves are handled. Generally the bump saves get in the first level of a class/PrC isn't that big a deal over the course of 20 levels, as things even out anyway, but 6 levels wouldn't really even anything out.

This wouldn't be an issue for a single-class PC, but if you get someone taking 2/3/4 classes, or PrCs, suddenly you've got a guy with saves that are seriously out of whack. Anyone consider this a potential issue?


----------



## GrolloStoutfoam

Aegir said:
			
		

> One thought regarding this system is how saves are handled. Generally the bump saves get in the first level of a class/PrC isn't that big a deal over the course of 20 levels, as things even out anyway, but 6 levels wouldn't really even anything out.
> 
> This wouldn't be an issue for a single-class PC, but if you get someone taking 2/3/4 classes, or PrCs, suddenly you've got a guy with saves that are seriously out of whack. Anyone consider this a potential issue?




I think the system has a built in check.  To get these saves the character has to make a trade off which results in lower spell progression, BAB, and fewer class abilities.  Not worth it in my opinion as I can just have my cleric take feats that bump my reflex save while having full caster progression and BAB +5.

Also the character would have to qualify for the PrC at or before 6th level to get all the benefits of the PrC level.  I think the intent is, if a character would qualify for the PrC after 6th level, they can take the PrC class abilities as feat chains.  This means they get the special abilities of the PrC but not the increase in BAB, saves, caster level.  Just my interpretation though, I could be wrong.


----------



## green slime

I suppose it could be an issue if you allow all the various base classes from various sources, but only for a melee character, really.

Spellcasters need to stay focused.

A melee character could theoretically do Fighter 1/Ranger 1/Paladin 1/Duskblade 1/Knight 1/Hexblade 1 or Swashbuckler 1 or somesuch.


----------



## Ry

As was stated by someone else before (when I was concerned about the same thing):  If you multiclass that much, you're probably doing it to get the saves.  In that situation, your saves are your key class feature.  

You're giving up any higher-level class features: Fighter's weapon spec, ranger's animal companion, etc. etc.


----------



## Ry

GrolloStoutfoam said:
			
		

> I think the system has a built in check.  To get these saves the character has to make a trade off which results in lower spell progression, BAB, and fewer class abilities.  Not worth it in my opinion as I can just have my cleric take feats that bump my reflex save while having full caster progression and BAB +5.




Exactly. 



			
				GrolloStoutfoam said:
			
		

> Also the character would have to qualify for the PrC at or before 6th level to get all the benefits of the PrC level.  I think the intent is, if a character would qualify for the PrC after 6th level, they can take the PrC class abilities as feat chains.  This means they get the special abilities of the PrC but not the increase in BAB, saves, caster level.  Just my interpretation though, I could be wrong.




That depends on the individual GM.  There's a LOT of feats out there, and you can get some really great ones for about $15 (phil reed's pdfs).  They address things like providing special abilities and shoring up multiclass combinations that serve the same purpose as those upper level Prestige Class abilities provide.  

Personally, I would only allow feat chains towards Prestige Class abilities that could have been acquired by an ECL 6 character.  But what feats you allow should really be guided most by

1) How do you want your campaign to go?
2) Do you think it's a balanced feat on its own?


----------



## Ry

One more thing re: saves

Saves are passive abilities; the PC doesn't usually control when their character uses this fine ability, which gives them limited appeal compared to stuff the player can _decide_ to use.  So if a player goes after them like crazy, and succeeds in having really exceptional saves - it's best to just let them.


----------



## Ry

wolfpunk said:
			
		

> How rare is it for people to reach 6th level? Meaning is this version of d&d supposed to be significantly more deadly, making sixth level characters rare, and characters with a significant amount of feats truly epic?




It's hard for me to pronounce on that.  I'd say that the population of the world is (in order of most to least)

Level 1
Level 2
Level 3
Level 4
Level 5
Level 6
Level 6+5
Level 6+10
Level 6+15
Level 6+20

But those last 4 categories might outnumber level 4 if you put them together.

BUT - and this is a big but - PCs are more likely to encounter the higher level ones than they are to encounter the Level 1 ones.  This is because level is still a decent measure of importance, and PCs are doing important stuff.


----------



## Ry

mfrench said:
			
		

> I've been trying to work out an adventure path based mainly on the WotC free adventures, as well as a handful of published adventures and the dozen or so Dungeon issues that I have.  Specifically, the stuff on G's Gauntlet Expanded and the post in How to Create Depth in Worldbuilding have been driving the development.  I've been planning to start a new thread on it all weekend, but haven't got around to it yet.




Sounds cool!  Keep me posted if I miss the thread.


----------



## Ry

I wanted to share something I'm going to be trying in the new E6 game.  

Like the Conviction and Death Flag mechanics, this isn't necessary to E6.   But I wanted to let people know I was using it because I've already playtested the level cap enough to know it works, and I want to incorporate this other rule for the sake of my own game.

Once again: _You can use E6 and not use this rule if you don't like it._

*Raising the Stakes*

At any time, a player can choose to make a 'raise' before rolling their d20s.  The terms of the raise are up to the player, but the GM can either accept ("Call") or decide "no bet."

For example: "I attack the goblin, raise you a decapitation frightening his buddies against me falling prone."   "Call."

"I attack the goblin, raise you 2d6 damage against 2d6 damage" "Call."

Modifiers will be left to the standard underlying rules, and raises based on odds that are too strong will simply be declined.  So if the fighter has a 95% chance of hitting the goblin, the raise of "I do an extra 5d6 or take an extra 5d6 damage." would be declined.  Instead, a raise could be : "OK, if I hit, I decapitate the goblin and his friends are frightened.  If I miss, I'm on the ground grappled by 5 goblins and I take 2d6 damage."

This can be used also to bypass other less fun mechanics "OK, I walk up to the sorcerer and hit him with my dagger.  I raise grappling him against getting knocked back 10 feet and taking 2d6 damage from cracking my head on the pillar."


----------



## Ry

wolfpunk said:
			
		

> Question, has anyone thought of letting a character who takes levels in their favored class to gain one level in that class above the level 6 maximum? For example, a dwarf could be a level 7 fighter, a half orc could be a level 7 barbarian. Humans and Half-elves could take 1 extra level of whatever class they took at first level.




That could work - although I'd recommend one of these two options:

1)  Dig up some feats that have Racial requirements.  They tend to follow along the same lines and you might find that's even more satisfying.
2)  Put your cap at 8th level instead of 6th if you like those abilities

Also, if you're big into items just above the cap, you could allow Eberron's artificer, who for the purpose of meeting magic item prerequisites has a caster level equal to his artificer level +2


----------



## Ry

green slime said:
			
		

> That depends on how the "cap" is interpreted. As the official line is that the creator level as described in the DMG is only a guideline as to when the "average" such item would be created, in order to determine item saving throws, rather than a firm requirement for production of said item, yes.
> 
> But if you take the other, common, interpretation, that the CL is a requirement, rather than a guideline, then no.




I was under the impression that the CL was a requirement, but the "average" referred to how items are usually created at their minimum level.  Otherwise why does the Eberron Artificer get a caster level bonus for the purpose of meeting requirements in their "item creation" class feature?


----------



## Ry

Dragonblade275 said:
			
		

> That's what I was thinking.  The notes you made on _The Shackled City_ showed that a lot of the enemies at higher levels would have to be rewritten to use E6.  And, though I like to spend time working on DnD, I don't want to have to rewrite published adventures to make them work with the system that I'm using.




One thing I forgot to mention:  E6, once you get even a little used to it (say, by running adventures from level 1 to 6 a lot, and then using some level 6 and 7 and 8 modules from there) is pretty easy to ballpark, and you get a LOT of mileage out of your NPCs because the 5th-level sorcerer you wrote for the game three months ago is still useful in tomorrow's game.


----------



## Ry

mfrench said:
			
		

> I've been trying to work out an adventure path based mainly on the WotC free adventures, as well as a handful of published adventures and the dozen or so Dungeon issues that I have.  Specifically, the stuff on G's Gauntlet Expanded and the post in How to Create Depth in Worldbuilding have been driving the development.  I've been planning to start a new thread on it all weekend, but haven't got around to it yet.




MFrench, have you seen my blog on that topic?  It might help.


----------



## Ry

Aegir said:
			
		

> That probably is a way to go, and keeping with what seems to have become the theme for E6, it should be a community project. It could start with a sort of outline, basically an outline of what a world governed by E6 rules would be like.




Hey Aegir, I like the ideas you posted, and I am kind of cooking up an outline.  Bear with me for a bit; I've suddenly had a lot of e-mails and forum threads to respond to about E6.

Rather than a "Community Project" - which requires rules and hierarchies and can get bogged down by distributed responsibility or clashes over how things should work - what I'd rather do is take the job on and build an E6 setting in public view.  That way there's no overhead of community management; I can do it at EN World.

There's a writing method I've tried before with great results, which boils down to "Have interested readers that ask questions and provide feedback."  When I get cooking I can churn out (non-stats) material at a rapid rate.

One other thing is that a community project is hard to get the rights to, and in my ideal future an established d20 publisher gets interested in E6, pays me some nominal sum to liaise with them, and produces something with higher production values than a community project (or me alone) could normally produce.


----------



## joela

*Xe6?*



			
				rycanada said:
			
		

> What do people think of that approach for XE6?




Uh, what's XE6?


----------



## Ry

The idea was XE6 was a sort of "expanded" E6 that had feats that allowed characters to incrementally grow to the equivalent of 8th level cahracters.  That's not my thing, but I put it out there to try to help those who wanted E6 to go just a little further.  

I think the discussion abandoned it now.  Looks like we're generally talking about a "Basic" E6 and talking about different kinds of feats that customize that experience.  I can see now that that kind of discussion doesn't lend itself to trying to classify different flavors of E6, so I've stopped doing so.


----------



## gavagai

Intresting.

Can you post some ("epic") PCs and NPCs from your campaign?


----------



## green slime

rycanada said:
			
		

> I was under the impression that the CL was a requirement, but the "average" referred to how items are usually created at their minimum level.  Otherwise why does the Eberron Artificer get a caster level bonus for the purpose of meeting requirements in their "item creation" class feature?




This issue is summed up quite well in this  link. 

I just don't find it unbalancing or unreasonable to allow a 6th level character to add "of flaming"   to a weapon. The alternative would remove elemental energy damage from the fighter's repitiore within the E6 context.


----------



## Squire James

The E6 arrangement reminds me of World of Warcraft - an adventurer is considered a "nobody" until he reaches level 6, then he can join a guild and go on dragon raids... then some expansion pack comes along and raises the level cap to 7!

Edit:  Not that there's anything wrong with this - WoW is not exactly unpopular!


----------



## Ry

Squire James said:
			
		

> The E6 arrangement reminds me of World of Warcraft - an adventurer is considered a "nobody" until he reaches level 6, then he can join a guild and go on dragon raids... then some expansion pack comes along and raises the level cap to 7!
> 
> Edit:  Not that there's anything wrong with this - WoW is not exactly unpopular!




Wow.  Um... that's not really the intent, but OK.  I'm more into "State what your campaign is at the beginning, and stick with it.  That might be E6, or E6 with feats to gain 8th, or whatever, but stick with it for the sake of your players."

Now that I think about it, though, there's one benefit, if you think of high-level WoW play: "We know what the PCs will be like, so we can build reams and reams of things for them to do, and play around with how to challenge them now that we know their capabilities."


----------



## Ry

gavagai said:
			
		

> Intresting.
> 
> Can you post some ("epic") PCs and NPCs from your campaign?




My notes are mostly gone; a lot of the time I would use that file above (DM's Able Secretary) and a list of some equipment, special abilities, spells, and feats for each NPC.  Bear with me, today I've mostly been trying to keep up with the massive number of replies E6 has had at various boards.


----------



## Dragonblade275

Ryan,

I was just over at rpg.net and the OotS forums.  This idea has certainly generated A LOT of interest.  I just want to say "Congratulations!" on coming up with this idea.

When you get to working on the FAQ, one thing I would like to see is a list of templates (like the bone template for liches) that you you recommend in E6.


----------



## Aegir

I wonder... what about a feat that'd allow the character to count as (level +1) for purposes of meeting feat prerequisites? The really odd thought is that eventually (assuming you're allowed to take it unlimited times and that it stacks), you could take about 15 of these and meet the requirements for epic feats such as Imp. Spell Capacity, which would effectively let an E6 PC cast spells above Lv 3. Suppose the simple fix to that would be to cap it at Lv... what? 12? 15? 20?

Either way, a guy taking *15* otherwise useless feats so he can expand his spellcasting ability (especially considering they'd be largely useless until then) seems like it'd be balanced enough. As I said, you're effectively taking 16 feats (4 full levels, assuming the 4 feats = 1 level equation) so you can have a single Lv 4 slot (plus whatever from high Int/Cha).


----------



## Dragonblade275

Aegir said:
			
		

> I wonder... what about a feat that'd allow the character to count as (level +1) for purposes of meeting feat prerequisites?



It's an interesting idea, but how do you balance it so that it's fair to fighter and rogue types and not just beneficial to casters?

There are some feats that are pretty useful to fighters that couldn't be gained in E6 because of BAB prerequisites.  For instance, Improved Critical requires a BAB of +8.  Could such a feat be used to obtain the virtual pre-requisites for feats like this?

I'm leary of this because it may result in unforseen complications down the line.  I prefer the idea that higher level spells need to be cast in rituals or by groups of casters who can obtain a relatively higher caster level through the synergy of their efforts.  Such rituals/groups could explain the existance of slightly more powerful magic items than could normally be created by sixth level casters, too.

I suppose I would definitely allow it if we used Ryan's four feat chain to count toward the virtual levels.  That way, it would require four feats to make the equivalent of one virtual level for purposes of qualifying for feats.  Then, I don't think anyone could say it was too easy.  I think this is the best way to go.

Here's Ryan's feats.  Keep in mind that I'm considering that the benefits of these feats would only be virtual for the purposes of qualifying for other feats.  And, you would have to take ALL FOUR for each virtual level that you wanted your character to attain.


			
				rycanada said:
			
		

> XE6 is about having rules that allow characters to "pop the cap" at least up to 8th level power.  So I was thinking about each level as a 4-part feat chain, like this:
> 
> *Seventh-Level Advancement 1*
> Choose a class.  You gain a hit die and your character level and class level raise as if you were one level higher in that class.  You gain no other benefits of levelling in that class.
> Special: The class a character uses for Seventh-Level Advancement 1 must be used for Seventh-Level Advancement 2, 3, and 4.
> 
> *Seventh-Level Advancement 2*
> Prereq: Seventh-Level Advancement 1
> For the class you chose for Seventh-Level Advancement 1, you gain any increased BAB and Saves as if you had taken a level in that class.  You gain no other benefits of levelling in that class.
> Special: The class a character uses for Seventh-Level Advancement 1 must be used for Seventh-Level Advancement 2, 3, and 4.
> 
> *Seventh-Level Advancement 3*
> Prereq: Seventh-Level Advancement 2
> For the class you chose for Seventh-Level Advancement 1, you gain any increased skill ranks and ranks available as if you had taken a level in that class.  You gain no other benefits of levelling in that class.
> Special: The class a character uses for Seventh-Level Advancement 1 must be used for Seventh-Level Advancement 2, 3, and 4.
> 
> *Seventh-Level Advancement 4*
> Prereq: Seventh-Level Advancement 3
> For the class you chose for Seventh-Level Advancement 1, you gain any benefit of taking a level in that class that you have not already received from Seventh-Level Advancement 1, 2, or 3.  You gain no other benefits of levelling in that class.
> Special: The class a character uses for Seventh-Level Advancement 1 must be used for Seventh-Level Advancement 2, 3, and 4.



Repeat these four feats for Eighth Level Advancement and so on.

This makes it possible for those bone templated liches who've been around forever to have a few extra powerful spells than the most mortals can obtain.  All the more reason to fear such creatures.


----------



## Aegir

Dragonblade275 said:
			
		

> It's an interesting idea, but how do you balance it so that it's fair to fighter and rogue types and not just beneficial to casters?




Suppose the simplest answer would be to have at least two versions, one for character level, and one for BAB. The BAB one wouldn't actually *give* BAB, simply count for the purposes of meeting that feat prereq.

As for one that covers Caster Level... Hm. Off the top of my head I can't think of anything this one would be beneficial for if it was only good for meeting feat prereqs, other than item creation feats, and unless it was also expanded to meeting actual creation prereqs (not just the one for taking the feat), then that'd be useless.

Also... opening the door to creating higher-level items is a whole other can of worms.


----------



## mfrench

In regards to all the Magic Item creation discussion, I have been thinking about a Circle Casting feat in this context.  If you give the feat a reasonable prereq, it can mean that a dedicated group of casters can create items with a higher caster level (if they can still cast the required spells, and they have the circle buffing the primary caster every day of the crafting).  I think that this will be rare enough to not make these items common, but it can really add something to a campaign in terms of having the PCs build alliances such that they could have (nearly) unique weapon abilities (or, conversely, stopping groups of evil casters trying to do the same . . .).


----------



## Aegir

mfrench said:
			
		

> In regards to all the Magic Item creation discussion, I have been thinking about a Circle Casting feat in this context.




I'm the wrong person to weigh in on this (as I severely dislike the magic item system of D&D anyway), but baring that bias in mind: opening the door to creating magic items that're beyond the PCs normal level is asking for trouble; magic items tend to be the single easiest breaking point in the D&D system.

I'd much prefer limiting them to creating items that they, as 6th level characters, can create, and leave everything else as DM option for treasure and such.


----------



## wolfpunk

The Artificer class does seem to be a good fit for an E6 campaign. Thanks for the suggestion.

Quick questions, monsters are also limited to 6 class levels as well. Does this limit also apply to npc classes?


----------



## Ry

mfrench said:
			
		

> In regards to all the Magic Item creation discussion, I have been thinking about a Circle Casting feat in this context.  If you give the feat a reasonable prereq, it can mean that a dedicated group of casters can create items with a higher caster level (if they can still cast the required spells, and they have the circle buffing the primary caster every day of the crafting).  I think that this will be rare enough to not make these items common, but it can really add something to a campaign in terms of having the PCs build alliances such that they could have (nearly) unique weapon abilities (or, conversely, stopping groups of evil casters trying to do the same . . .).




Ooh... I picture a situation where assassins are being hired by multiple enemies of such a circle to stop them from gathering.  I'd make sure Circle Casting had some kind of in-character training prerequisite, so it became a dangerous thing to even know HOW to do (because others are threatened by such powerful gatherings of mages).


----------



## wolfpunk

The nice part of circle magic is we already have some semblance of how to do it in the Red Wizard of Thay PrC in the Dmg.


----------



## avr

I saw this somewhere else, but I think it bears repeating. There need to be counters to some of the nastier conditions out there - even if PCs can't petrify or level drain their enemies, cockatrices & wights are still in the MM.

Personally, I hate the MacGuffin answer to this. It's a royal pain being left out for 4 sessions while the rest of the party journeys to the Holy Well to get the cure. 

One solution is to use the artificer class & let them make L4 spell scrolls at level 5-6 as per RAW. If artificers are the only ones with access to other L4 spells (Divine Power anyone?) this may look unbalancing though.

Another is to make a few spells into feats each allowing the caster to use the spell once per day (Restoration & Break Enchantment I guess, prereq 3rd-level divine spells).

Another suggestion was to repurpose Dispel magic. Does this make these conditions too easy to get rid of though?

One I didn't see mentioned was to use the UA incantations for this. Something like 3 successful DC20 knowledge (religion) checks out of 6 over a 6 hour ritual (trappings to DM's taste) might be a decent substitute for casting restoration. I like this best BTW.

Rycanada, how did you handle this in your game?


----------



## Ry

Submitted for your consideration, the current "epic" feats I'm considering.  Please peruse and tell me what you think, this is for the new E6 document I'm working on (which at least to start will be just a new thread, but we'll see from there).

*Artful Sorcery*
Prerequisites: Character level 6, ability to cast spells of 2 different levels spontaneously.
Benefit: You gain two spells known - one for your highest level spells, and one for a lower level.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times.

*Extended Sorcery*
Prerequisites:  Character level 6, spontaneous caster
Benefit: For a kind of magic you cast spontaneously, you gain two spell slots - one for your highest level spell slot, and one for a lower level slot.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times.

*Extended Wizardry*
Prerequisites:  Character level 6, prepared caster
Benefit: For one kind of magic that you prepare, you gain one spell slot of any level.  
Special: You may take this feat multiple times.


----------



## Ry

avr - see first post, there's a Restoration feat for Wis 18 divine casters


----------



## wolfpunk

Using those feats would you allow a caster of any type to have more slots of a higher level than the ones below it? For example 7 third level spells but only 6 first and 5 second level spells.


----------



## Ry

wolfpunk said:
			
		

> The Artificer class does seem to be a good fit for an E6 campaign. Thanks for the suggestion.
> 
> Quick questions, monsters are also limited to 6 class levels as well. Does this limit also apply to npc classes?




Actually, instead of limiting monsters to 6 classes, I typically limit their class-based advancement to CR 6.  Once they're CR 6 I might add templates or monster hit dice but not "levels" per se.  Does that answer your question?


----------



## Ry

wolfpunk said:
			
		

> Using those feats would you allow a caster of any type to have more slots of a higher level than the ones below it? For example 7 third level spells but only 6 first and 5 second level spells.




My initial reaction is to just say yes, you can be top-heavy.  Do you think there should be an additional requirement like you describe?


----------



## Ry

also, avr - they've been mentioned on other boards more than here, but incantations from UA are a perfect fit for this kind of campaign.  I use them mostly in the background for things like the creation of more powerful undead than a 3rd-level spell can generate, or opening portals between ancient sites of power.


----------



## avr

Thanks, I missed that Restoration feat in the 1st post. It covers the commoner version of the problem (undead level drain), but not the cockatrice-in-the-face problem. Did the latter ever come up for you?


----------



## wolfpunk

Gotcha on the monster advancement, seems like it could work either way. I was just wondering if it was possible to create monsters by the same rules that would have a large number of feats.

I don't know that it is a problem, would probably have to play it to find out, it just doesn't exist as an option at the moment, unless you use a point based magic system.


----------



## Ry

Oh, absolutely.  Hose monsters down with feats.  That old crafty dragon?  Crack open the Draconomicon and grab feats like candy.


----------



## Ry

avr said:
			
		

> Thanks, I missed that Restoration feat in the 1st post. It covers the commoner version of the problem (undead level drain), but not the cockatrice-in-the-face problem. Did the latter ever come up for you?




Didn't come up in my campaign, but I'd just do the exact same thing; allow a feat that fixed it.  I'd probably make it an arcane caster thing, though - Alchemy plus transmutation spells as a prerequisite.


----------



## wolfpunk

So lets say I start with a CR 6 creature, I then add four feats to it, would you consider this to be a CR 7 creature, obviously I am asking for an approximation. Would another four feats make it a CR 8?


----------



## Ry

I'd ballpark it at about 5, but keep in mind that just like in D&D certain abilities can be unexpectedly devestating; don't be afraid to peg a CR differently depending on what you see.  Another great way to compare is to look at the CR change of templates that do a similar thing.


----------



## Ry

Sorry I haven't posted any statblocks or anything; they take a while to write up and most of my day today has been responding to these forums and working on the new introduction and FAQ.  

In 5 days E6 has had four times the response that it had from August '04 to May '07.


----------



## wolfpunk

Well, you know what they say, timing is everything.


----------



## green slime

rycanada said:
			
		

> Submitted for your consideration, the current "epic" feats I'm considering.  Please peruse and tell me what you think, this is for the new E6 document I'm working on (which at least to start will be just a new thread, but we'll see from there).
> 
> *Artful Sorcery*
> Prerequisites: Character level 6, ability to cast spells of 2 different levels spontaneously.
> Benefit: You gain two spells known - one for your highest level spells, and one for a lower level.
> Special: You may take this feat multiple times.
> 
> *Extended Sorcery*
> Prerequisites:  Character level 6, spontaneous caster
> Benefit: For a kind of magic you cast spontaneously, you gain two spell slots - one for your highest level spell slot, and one for a lower level slot.
> Special: You may take this feat multiple times.
> 
> *Extended Wizardry*
> Prerequisites:  Character level 6, prepared caster
> Benefit: For one kind of magic that you prepare, you gain one spell slot of any level.
> Special: You may take this feat multiple times.




I don't like them.
Firstly, they exceed the similar kind of feats and abilities we have seen previously (Extra Slot, Extra Spell, Advanced Learning)
I also think granting two new spells per feat is too strong for a sorcerer, in comparisson to what other classes can achieve with a feat. The sorcerer is deliberately stifled in his spell selection, because of the power of spontaneous spell casting.

I think I'd prefer feats along this line:

*Master of the Mystical*
Prerequisites:  6th level spellcaster, 9 ranks Knowledge (arcana) or 9 ranks Knowledge (Nature) or 9 ranks Knowledge (Religion)
Benefit: By strenuous mental exercises, and through study of eldritch signs/esoteric mystical texts/ you have expanded the number of spells per day you can cast. You gain two spell slots - one 1st level spell slot, and one 2nd level spell slot.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times.

*Supreme Master of the Mystical*
Prerequisites:  6th level spellcaster, 9 ranks Knowledge (arcana) or 9 ranks Knowledge (Nature) or 9 ranks Knowledge (Religion), Master of the Mystical
Benefit: By strenuous mental exercises, and through study of eldritch signs/esoteric mystical texts/ you have expanded the number of spells per day you can cast. You gain one 3rd level spell slot.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times. You may not take this feat more times than you have taken Master of the Mystical.

*Ultimate Master of the Mystical*
Prerequisites:  6th level spellcaster, 9 ranks Knowledge (arcana) or 9 ranks Knowledge (Nature) or 9 ranks Knowledge (Religion), Master of the Mystical, Supreme Master of the Mystical
Benefit: Your studies of ancient texts and outsider contacts have allowed you to exceed normal mortal bounds. You gain a spell slot of a level one higher than you can cast prior to taking this feat. You do not gain access to higher level spells with this feat. This slot may only be used to fuel metamagic spells. 

And then the ordinary "Extra Spell" "Advanced Learning" feats.


----------



## Ry

Hmm... thinking about this... and the fact that it's hard to write feats that aren't copies of WotC's feats that we  agree on.  

I'm stuck between two possibilities:  

On one hand, there's the concept of a "complete" E6.  That's something I could hand off as a product because it's d20/OGL friendly but doesn't use any non-OGL WotC material.  That's what's had me trying to write around WotC on these feats.

On the other hand, there's E6 as a fan game, that unabashedly references WotC material and explains how to use duskblades, warforged, 9 swords manoeuvres, and whatever else we're interested in using.


----------



## Matrix Sorcica

GreatLemur said:
			
		

> But I'm not a really big fan of experience points, personally.  If I were to use this system, I'd probably abstract feat gain the same way I would level gain.  That is, if the PCs have accomplished something major, they gain a level next time they have some down time.



I strongly suggest you takea look at _Chronicles of Ramlar_. www.whitesilverpublishing.com has downloads that will allow you to use their "XP" system with E6.
Basically, you have something like 5 circles on your character sheet. You then yourself fill out the circles with a goal or motivation, belief etc., such as "I will become the scourge of the undead" or "All orcs must be destroyed". When you complete anything that has to do with this goal, you get a mark and with ten marks you gain a benefit - in this case a feat.
You always get marks in one circle for participating in the game.

It's pretty neat.


----------



## Koewn

rycanada said:
			
		

> I'm stuck between two possibilities:
> 
> On one hand, there's the concept of a "complete" E6.
> 
> On the other hand, there's E6 as a fan game.




It all depends on where you envision this going.

If you want to let this become a "product"; either with monetary benefits or not, and see books/PDFs with "E6" logos, you'll want to leave it all OGL/d20.

I'd think if the "complete E6" were set in stone and finished, the "fan game" portion of it would resolve itself forthwith. 

The "complete E6 as a product", and then the "here's how I'd  add in the rest of WotC's stuff as a hobby" can both be provided by you seperately, I'd think, without issue. One just can't be profitted upon.

Finally, with the mass of d20 that exists, and multiple takes on "Epic" play, even, there's a lot of ideas thrown around in the thread that while they may be inspired from WotC rules, they may not be either original to WotC or be "obvious" in the context of a d20 ruleset that's hard-capped at a certain level other than 20th. (or would be easily derived from other OGL rules).

To put that another way, your content that I've read, I'm not seeing anything that goes very far out from the SRD, but things are a little scattered in this thread right now so I can't commit to that 100%.


----------



## Ry

If we went with the idea of 2 versions, there'd be a product E6 and a fan e6.  

My question then is: what needs to go in the E6 as a product?

Obviously there's the rule itself; there's one paragraph.  There's the FAQ, which is much, much, bigger.  

But I have the sense that there's a need for some more feats to provide for the rest of the advancement system.


----------



## joela

*E6: The Product*



			
				rycanada said:
			
		

> My question then is: what needs to go in the E6 as a product?
> 
> Obviously there's the rule itself; there's one paragraph.  There's the FAQ, which is much, much, bigger.




Personally, I'd want more discussion/examples/breakdowns on incorporating high-end options into E6; i.e., writing up a lich (as you suggested over at rpg.net), the use of legacy items, using incantations to access high-level spells, translating published high-level adventures into E6, etc.

How to emphasize teamwork and investigation into E6. One thought is giving free skill ranks to PCs form those teams in PH2 (?). I'd also make more use of skill synergies. There's a product, whose name escapes me at the moment, that stats skill synergies up to 20 ranks or so. It would be interesting to incorporate a similar feature in E6 for class skills (max 9 ranks).


----------



## Sqwonk

rycanada said:
			
		

> 2)  Put your cap at 8th level instead of 6th if you like those abilities




Ha.  Maybe my head cold is affecting me worse than I thought.  When I first started reading about E6, I really like it exept.
I like to start at 3rd level and think the sweet spot goes to about level 12. 

But your point above just crystallized it.  I could play E8 w/o a ton of modifications.
Awesome !


----------



## Sqwonk

joela said:
			
		

> Personally, I'd want more discussion/examples/breakdowns on incorporating high-end options into E6; i.e., writing up a lich (as you suggested over at rpg.net), the use of legacy items, using incantations to access high-level spells, translating published high-level adventures into E6, etc..




Isn't the point of E6 that the "high end" goes away?  6th level is very high and then you are epic from 7-10th level.


----------



## Ry

Sqwonk said:
			
		

> Isn't the point of E6 that the "high end" goes away?  6th level is very high and then you are epic from 7-10th level.




Certain other monsters are redefined; sometimes you do want an undead wizard.

For example, for a Lich:

I'd start with a Sorc 6 or Wizard 6, give it the Bone Creature template from BoVD, and load it up with feats. Tons of feats. Feats that the heroes will never forget. The lich has had a long time to develop his powers; the prereqs for the Sudden Metamagic feats are quite worth it to him. I'd also load it up with minions, as suggested.


----------



## Sqwonk

Do you use point buy or roll stats?

I would think that beginning stats become much more important in E6 over standard 3.5 D&D.


----------



## Ry

I allow a 32 point buy, see the chart with LA races.


----------



## joela

*Legacy*



			
				rycanada said:
			
		

> Certain other monsters are redefined; sometimes you do want an undead wizard.
> 
> For example, for a Lich:
> 
> I'd start with a Sorc 6 or Wizard 6, give it the Bone Creature template from BoVD, and load it up with feats. Tons of feats. Feats that the heroes will never forget. The lich has had a long time to develop his powers; the prereqs for the Sudden Metamagic feats are quite worth it to him. I'd also load it up with minions, as suggested.




Yeah. Possibly arm it with a legacy weapon from Weapons of Legacy. Course, the weapon would only(?!?) have up to 6th level powers, but if you combine it with legacy feats...


----------



## Dragonblade275

Ryan,

In E6, have you tried allowing certain feats on a case by case basis that E6 characters couldn't normally qualify for?  For example, Greater Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Specialization from the 3.5 _Player's Handbook_ don't seem to me like they would break E6.  Would you allow them and just change the fighter level requirement to 6th level fighter?  If so, this would really reward the focused fighter that spent all 6 levels in only fighter.


----------



## Ry

There's two answers.  If I was playing with a strict guideline of "You can't get abilities you couldn't get at 6th" then no.  

But in reality my personal guidelines are somewhat looser.  It's hard to think of a case where those feats break E6, but I do think they're very strong feats - for a 6th-level fighter, is there a feat that's more worth taking than those?  I'm not sure.  The test of "are any other feats worth taking if this is in the mix?" still applies.

So either "no" or "my player would have to really bug me for it and I'd take a hard look"


----------



## Dragonblade275

OK.  Thanks, Ryan.  That's the answer I was looking for.  I think keeping the rule on the stricter side avoids error... Erring on the side of caution, so-to-speak, is a little better.

Thanks for stating that the bone template was in the BOVD in an earlier post.  I couldn't remember where I'd seen it at.  I'm going to look at it and see what a sample E6 lich might look like.


----------



## Ry

If you've got a player who's playing a fighter, show them Complete Warrior, or recommend they pick up the same.  There's enough feats there to keep any hardened warrior happy for ages.


----------



## Ry

One thing that E6 is a bit weak on is the opening pitch.  I'm thinking of adding these paragraphs before the FAQ:

*How E6 works*

E6 is a game where heroes rise against evil, face terrible dangers, and battle against mighty monsters.  Like D&D, E6 is a game of enigmatic wizards, canny rogues, and mighty warriors.  But instead of using D&D’s 20 levels to translate the characters in that world into the rules, E6 uses only the first 6 levels.  E6 is about changing one of D&D’s essential assumptions, and it changes the world from the ground up.

*What is an E6 world like?*

An E6 world looks very much like a traditional fantasy world, like we see in Lord of the Rings or the Dragonlance fantasy novels.  The difference is how that world is expressed in the rules.  The average person in this world is a 1st-level commoner – imagine, from their perspective, the abilities of a 6th-level Wizard or 6th-level Fighter.  The wizard could kill everyone in your village with a few words (provided you standed relatively close together.  The fighter could stand up to ten armed men and kill every one of them.  When you see a manticore, you, and your whole village must run, and you can only hope to find men of such power and skill that might be able to defeat them.  6th level characters are mortal – but they are epic heroes, nonetheless.


----------



## Dragonblade275

Thank you for the suggestion.  I have the Complete Warrior, so I'll take another look to see what would be available to a 6th level character.  I'm looking through the Prestige Classes in the DMG right now to see what a character might be able to qualify for at 6th level that could be converted into feats.


----------



## Dragonblade275

rycanada said:
			
		

> One thing that E6 is a bit weak on is the opening pitch.  I'm thinking of adding these paragraphs before the FAQ:
> 
> *How E6 works*
> 
> E6 is a game where heroes rise against evil, face terrible dangers, and battle against mighty monsters.  Like D&D, E6 is a game of enigmatic wizards, canny rogues, and mighty warriors.  But instead of using D&D’s 20 levels to translate the characters in that world into the rules, E6 uses only the first 6 levels.  E6 is about changing one of D&D’s essential assumptions, and it changes the world from the ground up.
> 
> *What is an E6 world like?*
> 
> An E6 world looks very much like a traditional fantasy world, like we see in Lord of the Rings or the Dragonlance fantasy novels.  The difference is how that world is expressed in the rules.  The average person in this world is a 1st-level commoner – imagine, from their perspective, the abilities of a 6th-level Wizard or 6th-level Fighter.  The wizard could kill everyone in your village with a few words (provided you standed relatively close together.  The fighter could stand up to ten armed men and kill every one of them.  When you see a manticore, you, and your whole village must run, and you can only hope to find men of such power and skill that might be able to defeat them.  6th level characters are mortal – but they are epic heroes, nonetheless.



I like it.  The sales pitch for E6 needs to be pretty good for those that are still stuck in the idea that DnD must have 20+ levels to be DnD.

I looked at the Bone Template.  I could definitely make a lich from that that would strike fear into the hearts of the 4th level characters that are currently exploring Cauldron and it's surroundings in _The Shackled City._  I may just do that and create one as a side quest villain in Drakthar's Way (or somewhere else down the line).  Definitely food for thought!


----------



## Ry

Yeah, it's not so much about "converting naysayers" as "not eliciting a reaction equivalent to 'huh?'"


----------



## wolfpunk

I think an easy way to pitch E6, is to put it in perspective to the campaign that you are going to run. I see E6 working great for a mostly historical earth style rpg, I think it would work well for George R. R. Martin's Fire and Ice series, and so on. If your players go for that campaign idea, then E6 should be an easy sell.


----------



## Squire James

rycanada said:
			
		

> Wow.  Um... that's not really the intent, but OK.  I'm more into "State what your campaign is at the beginning, and stick with it.  That might be E6, or E6 with feats to gain 8th, or whatever, but stick with it for the sake of your players."
> 
> Now that I think about it, though, there's one benefit, if you think of high-level WoW play: "We know what the PCs will be like, so we can build reams and reams of things for them to do, and play around with how to challenge them now that we know their capabilities."




My WoW comment was mostly a joke on how all these people here seemed to want an "expansion pack" to extend the E6 level limit to 7 or 8... and that I can easily imagine a world full of max-level characters who consider anyone of level 5 or lower a "noob".  Even if a "noob" can conceivably be a threat to them, most level 6 guys are in a guild, and whomping a guildsman will bring MORE level 6 guys out after you!

I could see a world where level 5 guys really face a "trial by fire" because guilds opposing the PCs goals would be targeting them for removal to keep them from joining a rival guild, while those same rival guilds are more interested in testing these level 5 "noobs" than actually helping them!


----------



## Ry

I see it now, Squire James.   This is like the classic cowboy/samurai scenario "someone who looks way too tough for this town is drinking sake/beer over there.  Guards, go arrest him, and if you can't arrest him, we should try to hire him!"


----------



## Ry

I've repeated a principle several times and as I compile the FAQ I think it's time to advise it.  The principle was:

"If you could build a 6th-level character with some ability, then I think it should be fair game for that ability to be at the end of a feat chain."

I think a better principle would be: 

_"Before trying to make a new feat to cover a particular kind of character improvement, see if you already have an official feat that helps enhance that same character concept."_


----------



## Ry

wolfpunk said:
			
		

> They point out that balors, dragons, titans, and so on will be unbeatable. I point out that for the most part, they should be. I took time to point out all the creatures that the DMG shows experience for 6-th 7th level characters going all the way up to CR 13-14. That covers probably two thirds of the monster manual's monsters.




I think the way to go is to talk about how a Balor or a CR 20 dragon isn't really an E6 demon or E6 Dragon.  Those are E6 gods.  Or at least E6 campaign events.


----------



## Animus

Ry,

What do you think of aspects of the gods and/or fiendish lords? I think that they work well in the E6 "scale", don't you think?


----------



## Ry

Absolutely.  You might want to give them some kind of "gestalt" abilities with another demon if you want to make them long-running villains, but yes, yes, yes I think Aspects make for great representations of the gods in an E6 campaign, as long as you're happy with them being possibly-defeatable (which to me is a demigod or a demon lord, and I like the idea that the gods like Bahamut are just counterpoints to demon lord level power).


----------



## Ry

On RPG net someone posted about how all the feats you need for an all-psionic E6 campaign are already in the SRD (or at least, the really essential ones).

Damn that could be cool.


----------



## Ry

Sqwonk said:
			
		

> But your point above just crystallized it.  I could play E8 w/o a ton of modifications.  Awesome !




I live to serve.  Also, for fun, and I can also be motivated by a nice harem.


----------



## wolfpunk

rycanada said:
			
		

> I see it now, Squire James.   This is like the classic cowboy/samurai scenario "someone who looks way too tough for this town is drinking sake/beer over there.  Guards, go arrest him, and if you can't arrest him, we should try to hire him!"





Cowboys and samurai would be fun, I would suggest my PDF, Sunder Feats, for such a game, they would fit in great because of the lack of BAB prerequisites and also because I wrote the feats with that exact idea in mind. The ability to use the improved sunder feat to do something other than to destroy the treasure you are trying so hard to obtain is a bonus.

Also, I agree a balor or wyrm becomes a truly god-like creature. Maybe we should contact the B.A.D.D. (bothered about disposable dragons) guys and let them know we have found a solution for them.


I do have a question though, after say twenty bonus feats, are characters going to become very similiar just because of the overall usefulness of some feats over most others?


----------



## Ry

wolfpunk said:
			
		

> I do have a question though, after say twenty bonus feats, are characters going to become very similiar just because of the overall usefulness of some feats over most others?




I'm SURE that this won't happen.  

Try this as an exercise:  Make a fighter2/rogue4, a rogue 6, and a fighter 6.  Come up with real character concepts for them, not just stats.  

Then add 5 feats to each.
Then add 5 feats to each.
Then add 5 feats to each.
Then add 5 feats to each.

Please post them here, as we really need more statblocks.

For E6 as I'm codifying* it, I am instituting the "CL is a requirement" interepretation of shoppable magic.  Also, even epic player characters shouldn't start with more than Level 6 cash.

* I'm working on a stable "This is what E6 is" to create a baseline from which we can discuss other options.  This is not going to be a "hey, there's only one way to play E6."  Because that would be seven kinds of stupid.


----------



## wolfpunk

I will work up some variations, I will stick to the SRD for feats.


----------



## Ry

Stick to the SRD?  That might be tough.

What we need are some more developers saying "OK, feel free to include our feats in E6!"

For that very reason, I like the idea of your sunder feats wolfpunk.


----------



## wolfpunk

Ok, well, I can do that to, works perfect for a fighter, rogue, and then fighter/rogue combo actually.


----------



## Khuxan

Remember, there's over a thousand feats in the Netbook of Feats (http://datadeco.com/nbofeats/), and they're all OGC and free for your use. Just browsing at random, I've found feats that'd be good for:
Fighters: Bloodletting, Bow Mastery, Brawn, Brute, Called Shot
Rogues: Butterfly Flank, Camouflage
Spellcasters: Bonus Spells Focus, Cadaverous Familiar
Sages: Bookworm
All: Bottoms Up

As rycanada said previously, many of these feats allow greater damage or attack rolls and stack with Weapon Focus, meaning combat power as well as combat options improve. Some will see this as a good thing, some will see it as a bad thing. It's not difficult to put caps in place depending on the style of game.


----------



## wolfpunk

Here is a 6th level human fighter, with 5 epic feats, this one is using the Sunder mechanic to attack weapons and projectiles.

Using the Elite Array

Human Fighter 6

Strength 16 (+1 advancement) +3
Dexterity 10 +0
Constitution 14 +2
Intelligence 13 +1
Wisdom 12 +1
Charisma 8 -1

Fortitude +7
Reflex +2
Willpower +3

BAB +6/+1
Grapple +9

HP 44

AC 19 (21 versus projectiles), touch 10, flat-footed 19

Speed 30 ft
Initiative +0

Skills: 
Climb +12, Jump +12, Ride +9, Swim +12

Feats: 
Weapon Focus (longsword) 1st
Improved Sunder 1st: +4 to attack on sunder
Power Attack 1st
Improved Sunder Damage 2nd: +1d6 sunder damage
Greater Sunder 3rd: Double damage on successful sunder
Weapon Specialization (longsword) 4th
Shrapnel Sunder 6th: Deal slashing damage after a successful sunder
Improved Shrapnel Sunder Damage 6th +1d6 slashing damage after a successful sunder
Improved Shrapnel Sunder Range epic Hit target up to ten ft. away
Greater Shrapnel Sunder epic: Deal slashing damage to all adjacent foes after a successful sunder
Arrow Slash epic: +4 to sunder projectiles
Arrow Guard epic: +2 deflection bonus to ac versus ranged attacks
Improved Arrow Slash epic: +1d6 damage when you attempt to sunder a projectile



Weapons
Shatterspike (4,315) +10 1d8+6 19-20/x2 or 
	Sunder object +18 (1d8+1d6+9)x2 19-20/x2 or
	Sunder projectile +14 (1d8+1d6+6)x2 19-20/x2

	Shrapnel Sunder (Reflex DC 13) 2d6 to all opponents in 10 ft. radius


Armor
Mithral Shirt +2 (5,100)
Mithral Heavy Shield +1 (2,020)


----------



## wolfpunk

How do we calculate character wealth once the character is past 6th level in terms of experience? Is just by the level equivalent of the experience the character has gained?


----------



## wolfpunk

Human Fighter 6, 10 epic feats

Strength 16 (+1 advancement) +3
Dexterity 10 +0
Constitution 14 +2
Intelligence 13 +1
Wisdom 12 +1
Charisma 8 -1

Fortitude +7
Reflex +4
Willpower +5

BAB +6/+1
Grapple +9

HP 44

AC 19, touch 10, flat-footed 19

Speed 30 ft
Initiative +4

Skills: 
Climb +12, Jump +12, Ride +9, Swim +12

Feats: 
Weapon Focus (longsword) 1st
Improved Sunder 1st: +4 to attack on sunder
Power Attack 1st
Improved Sunder Damage 2nd: +1d6 sunder damage
Greater Sunder 3rd: Double damage on successful sunder
Weapon Specialization (longsword) 4th
Shrapnel Sunder 6th: Deal slashing damage after a successful sunder
Improved Shrapnel Sunder Damage 6th +1d6 slashing damage after a successful sunder

Improved Shrapnel Sunder Range epic Hit target up to ten ft. away
Greater Shrapnel Sunder epic: Deal slashing damage to all adjacent foes after a successful sunder
Arrow Slash epic: +4 to sunder projectiles
Arrow Guard epic: +2 deflection bonus to ac versus ranged attacks
Improved Arrow Slash epic: +1d6 damage when you attempt to sunder a projectile

Improved Initiative epic
Improved Shield Bash epic
Iron Will epic
Lightning Reflexes epic
Endurance epic

Weapons
Shatterspike (4,315) +10 1d8+6 19-20/x2 or 
	Sunder object +18 (1d8+1d6+9)x2 19-20/x2 or
	Sunder projectile +14 (1d8+1d6+6)x2 19-20/x2

	Shrapnel Sunder (Reflex DC 13) 2d6 to all opponents in 10 ft. radius


Armor
Mithral Shirt +2 (5,100)
Mithral Heavy Shield +1 (2,020)


----------



## wolfpunk

Human Fighter 6, 15 epic feats

Strength 16 (+1 advancement) +3
Dexterity 10 +0
Constitution 14 +2
Intelligence 13 +1
Wisdom 12 +1
Charisma 8 -1

Fortitude +7
Reflex +4
Willpower +5

BAB +6/+1
Grapple +9

HP 44

AC 19, touch 10, flat-footed 19

Speed 30 ft
Initiative +4

Skills: 
Climb +12, Jump +12, Ride +9, Swim +12

Feats: 
Weapon Focus (longsword) 1st
Improved Sunder 1st: +4 to attack on sunder
Power Attack 1st
Improved Sunder Damage 2nd: +1d6 sunder damage
Greater Sunder 3rd: Double damage on successful sunder
Weapon Specialization (longsword) 4th
Shrapnel Sunder 6th: Deal slashing damage after a successful sunder
Improved Shrapnel Sunder Damage 6th +1d6 slashing damage after a successful sunder

Improved Shrapnel Sunder Range epic Hit target up to ten ft. away
Greater Shrapnel Sunder epic: Deal slashing damage to all adjacent foes after a successful sunder
Arrow Slash epic: +4 to sunder projectiles
Arrow Guard epic: +2 deflection bonus to ac versus ranged attacks
Improved Arrow Slash epic: +1d6 damage when you attempt to sunder a projectile

Improved Initiative epic
Improved Shield Bash epic
Iron Will epic
Lightning Reflexes epic
Endurance epic

Cleave epic
Great Cleave epic
Improved Sunder Damage epic
Improved Shrapnel Sunder Damage epic
Improved Arrow Slash epic

Weapons
Shatterspike (4,315) +10 1d8+6 19-20/x2 or 
	Sunder object +18 (1d8+2d6+9)x2 19-20/x2 or
	Sunder projectile +14 (1d8+2d6+6)x2 19-20/x2

	Shrapnel Sunder (Reflex DC 13) 3d6 to all opponents in 10 ft. radius


Armor
Mithral Shirt +2 (5,100)
Mithral Heavy Shield +1 (2,020)


----------



## wolfpunk

Using the Elite Array

Human Rogue 4/Fighter 2

Strength 13 +1
Dexterity 16 (+1 advancement) +3
Constitution 14 +2
Intelligence 12 +1
Wisdom 10 +0
Charisma 8 -1

Fortitude +6
Reflex +7
Willpower +1

BAB +5
Grapple +6

HP 39

AC 18, touch 13, flat-footed 15 

Speed 30 ft
Initiative +3

Skills: 
Balance +13, Bluff +9, Escape Artist +13, Hide +18, Listen +10, Move Silently +18, Search +11, Sense Motive +10, 
Spot +10, Tumble +13

Climb +3, Jump +3, Ride +5, Swim +3

Feats: 
Two Weapon Fighting 1st
Combat Reflexes 1st
Weapon Finesse 3rd
Weapon Focus (short sword) 1st fighter
Power Attack 2nd fighter
Improved Sunder 6th

Arrow Slash epic: Sunder projectile
Shrapnel Slash epic: deal damage to adjacent foe after successful sunder
Deadly Slash epic : deal sneak attack damage on a shrapnel slash
Improved Shrapnel Slash Damage epic +1d6 damage on shrapnel slash
Precise Arrow Slash epic: deal sneak attack damage on an arrow slash

Abilities
Sneak Attack +2d6
Trapfinding
Evasion
Trap sense +1
Uncanny dodge

Weapons
2 +1 Short Swords (4,620)
+1 Short sword +9 1d6+2 19-20/x2 or
+1 Short sword +7 1d6+2 19-20/x2 and +7 1d6+1 19-20/x2 or
+1 Short sword Sunder object +13 1d6+2 19-20/x2 or
+1 Short sword Sunder projectile +13 1d6+2d6+2 19-20/x2 or
Deadly Shrapnel Slash (Reflex DC 16) 2d6+2d6 to one adjacent foe


Armor
+1 Mithral Shirt of Shadow and Silent Moves (9,600)


----------



## airwalkrr

I like the idea in theory. I'm not sure whether I would enjoy playing it though. I wouldn't mind trying if a DM ever wished to run it though.


----------



## Ry

For the netbook of feats... what was the process of selection there?

I feel like whatever gets into a "core" E6 document needs to go through a real meatgrinder of "too weak" "too strong" screaming.


----------



## Ry

Also, Khuxan has 100 Ceremonial feats that work nicely; some are a bit unbalanced (as he said).  I actually haven't looked at the sunder feats from wolfpunk yet.  

But as I said all along, a diverse selection of feats is crucial.


----------



## Animus

Here is a paladin that charges into the battle against evil, but settled into a rulership role as he acquired a domain.

Kellen Greycastle
================
Human (32 point buy)
Str 14, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 16 (15+1)

HD: 6d10+12 plus 6 (55 hp)
AC: 25

Melee Attack (Longsword): +10/+5 1d8+3 19-20/x2
(PA-3): +7/+2 1d8+6 19-20/x2
(Charge): +12 1d8+3+1d8 19-20/x2
(Smite Evil): +13 1d8+9 19-20/x2
(Charging Smite, PA -5) +10 1d8+26+1d8 19-20/x2

Saves:
Fort: +10 Ref: +6 Will: +7

Abilities:
Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Smite Evil 4/day, Charging Smite, Divine Health, Aura of Courage, Remove Disease 1/week, Divine Grace

Feats:
Power Attack, Dodge, Powerful Charge, Cleave; Great Cleave, Weapon Focus (longsword), Battle Blessing, Extra Smiting, Lightning Reflexes, Leadership, Improved Toughness, Endurance, Skill Focus (Diplomacy), Skill Focus (Sense Motive), Negotiator, Awesome Smite

Skills: Tot. Rnk. Ab. Misc.
--------------------------------------------
Diplomacy +20 8 +3 +9
Kno. (nob.) +5 5 +0 --
Sense Motive +15 8 +2 +5
Ride +7 6 +1 --

Equipment:
==========
+1 Cold Iron Sacred Longsword (12,630 gp)
+2 Mithral Full plate (14,500 gp)
+2 Mithral Heavy Shield (5,000 gp)


----------



## Ry

Here's E6 without the FAQ.  This will be the new "first post" of a new E6 thread once I have the FAQ done, but it's also the content that would be on a 1-page E6 .pdf for insertion into a campaign.

*E6: The Game Inside D&D*

*What is E6?*

Earlier this year Ryan Dancey suggested that D&D has four distinct quartiles of play:

Levels 1-5: Gritty fantasy
Levels 6-10: Heroic fantasy
Levels 11-15: Wuxia
Levels 16-20: Superheroes

There’s been some great discussion about how to define those quartiles, and how each different quartile suited some groups better than others.

E6 is a game about those first 2 quartiles, and as a result, it has fewer rules, a low-magic flavor, and it is quick and easy to prepare.  I have playtested the system extensively with my crew, and it works as intended.  There seems to be a lot of lively debate about E6, and some real interest in how it works, so I've revised it here.

E6 was inspired by the article _Gandalf was a Fifth-Level Magic User_ by Bill Seligman.  The article was published in The Dragon (which became Dragon magazine) in issue #5, March 1977.

*How E6 works*

E6 is a game where heroes rise against evil, face terrible dangers, and battle against mighty monsters.  Like D&D, E6 is a game of enigmatic wizards, canny rogues, and mighty warriors.  But instead of using D&D’s 20 levels to translate the characters in that world into the rules, E6 uses only the first 6 levels.  E6 is about changing one of D&D’s essential assumptions, and it changes the world from the ground up.

*What is an E6 world like?*

An E6 world looks very much like a traditional fantasy world, like we see in Lord of the Rings or the Dragonlance fantasy novels.  The difference is how that world is expressed in the rules.  The average person in this world is a 1st-level commoner – imagine, from their perspective, the abilities of a 6th-level Wizard or 6th-level Fighter.  The wizard could kill everyone in your village with a few words.  The fighter could stand up to ten armed guards and kill every one of them.  A manticore or a troll could slay your entire village, but a 6th-level party could save you all.  These characters are mortal – but they are also epic heroes.

Mortals have conquered nations, battled demons, and discovered powerful magics.  But the rules we use to show how they did that don't include Wishes, Ressurections, Astral Projection, +5 swords, and so on.  Mortal power isn’t “lessened” compared to D&D.  Instead, it’s a universe where even an incredible swordsmen doesn’t shrug off poisons, and they still see an ugly mob of commoners as a dangerous thing.  That's not the waning of mortal power; that's translating our favorite fantasy books and movies into an RPG.

*Rules*

Character progression from level 1 to level 6 is as per D&D. Upon attaining 6th level, for each 5000 experience a character gains, they earn a new feat.  Feats with unattainable prerequisites under this system remain unattainable.  A diverse selection of feats should be made available in any E6 campaign.

Caster level requirements for items are treated as hard requirements; if, as a result of this, an item cannot be created, then it should not be distributed as normal treasure.

*For the GM*

E6 isn't just a change for the players: The scale for monsters in E6 is different than d20.  Just as level 6 parties shouldn't be expected to tangle with monsters higher than CR 10, the mighty monsters of E6 should be made using a CR 7-10 as a base, and then enhancing those creatures with feats.

Huge and Gargantuan creatures can be created from smaller ones with templates and feats - but not with extra hit dice.


----------



## Dragonblade275

rycanada said:
			
		

> When you see *a* manticore, you, and your whole village must run, and you can only hope to find men of such power and skill that might be able to defeat *them.*



Ryan,

It sounds good so far, but can we change the wording, here, just a bit.  "Them" at the end of that sentence sounds strange to me since we're talking about one manticore.  Perhaps, this would work better?

When you see *a* manticore, you, and your whole village must run, and you can only hope to find men of such power and skill that might be able to defeat *it.*​Or:
When you see *a* manticore or a troll, you, and your whole village must run, and you can only hope to find men of such power and skill that might be able to defeat *such a creature.*​


----------



## Ry

Whooo... yeah, let me clean that up.  Less writing during meetings at work would probably help.


----------



## Ry

improved it above.  thoughts?


----------



## Aage

A question: How do you handle Tome of Battle in this system?

The reason for asking this is, while the sorcerer can take extra spell and extra slot to gain an ever-increasing number of options and can use these a lot of times, the martial adepts are stuck with their total number of manoeuvres known and readied, even at level 6 + 100... Which hardly seems fair to the poor sword sages


----------



## Aegir

Aage said:
			
		

> A question: How do you handle Tome of Battle in this system?




Add an "Extra Spell/Slot" feat that works for ToB classes? Seems simple enough, really.


----------



## Ry

Isn't there a feat like that anyway?  I don't have Bo9S but yeah, that's exactly what I'd do.


----------



## Khuxan

rycanada said:
			
		

> For the netbook of feats... what was the process of selection there?
> 
> I feel like whatever gets into a "core" E6 document needs to go through a real meatgrinder of "too weak" "too strong" screaming.




Each feat is reviewed by a committee of at least three people (of which I am an occasional participant). That said, I would certainly vet feats before I allowed them - just like I would from any source. Each feat does have a rating from 1 to 5 which (should, at least) show how powerful it is - but what is powerful and what is weak obviously varies from campaign to campaign.


----------



## Dragonblade275

rycanada said:
			
		

> improved it above.  thoughts?



Much better.


----------



## wolfpunk

I am thinking a Thug fighter varient from Unearthed Arcana with the Sneak attack instead of fighter feats progression would be a great character. Sneak Attack, Full BAB, a couple extra skills points, and access to weapon specialization etc is pretty decent.


----------



## Dragonblade275

Hey, Ryan.

I was going over some of my notes and ran across a reference to the Crystal Keep PDF of Feats.  If you haven't used this site, you might find it useful for E6.  

*The Crystal Keep Book of Feats*


----------



## Nifft

*Alternate Negative Level Mechanic*: Negative levels never become permanent. You get a new save to remove each one every day. You could have them for a long time, but you will (probably) eventually make your save.

Cheers, -- N


----------



## Emryys

Included in the E6 pdf writeup would it be possible to list feats that are recommended, including source, maybe even show the Talent trees devised. Would this be against the OGL to list the names w/ source.

Edit: just noticed the OGC thread...


----------



## Miar

*On creating magic items*

..Been lurking and finally decided to register and make a post.  Anyway just as a note the Artificer from Eberron effective caster level for making items is +2 if the item does not duplicate a spell effect.  Not sure how this would swing things for what was available but I thought it an interesting note.


----------



## Ry

_Re: Thug Variant_
I would expect that would run very smoothly.

_Re:  Crystal Keep_
Checking it out now, thanks!

_Re: Negative levels_
Good idea - heck, I even like that for regular D&D.  But I'm going to stick to the feat/ritual for now to keep the "E6" + "Recommended Feats" structure.

_Re: Feats I wrote earlier_
There was a note earlier that was in favor of the 1 feat: 1 3rd level slot for prepared casters and 1 feat: 1 3rd and 1 other slot for spontaneous casters.  I'm not convinced they're too good, even if they are better than Extra Slot.


----------



## Ry

Emryys said:
			
		

> Included in the E6 pdf writeup would it be possible to list feats that are recommended, including source, maybe even show the Talent trees devised. Would this be against the OGL to list the names w/ source.
> 
> Edit: just noticed the OGC thread...




I'm going to be including a few feats to fill what I see as the crucial gaps (gaining spells, gaining spells known, gaining skill points, removing negative levels, removing other permanent status effects).


----------



## Ry

Miar said:
			
		

> ..Been lurking and finally decided to register and make a post.  Anyway just as a note the Artificer from Eberron effective caster level for making items is +2 if the item does not duplicate a spell effect.  Not sure how this would swing things for what was available but I thought it an interesting note.




I think that's fine; if you include artificers in your game, I'd say that items up to CL 8 can be found.  

Also, welcome to the boards!


----------



## Ry

While that crystalkeep .pdf is handy... it's also not OGL kosher.  That could be a useful resource for your E6 game but I couldn't refer to it in any kind of official E6 designed for others' use.


----------



## Miar

But does even having the class exist and the ability under the lv 6 cap make this up for grabs for a feat that does the same thing.  Would you let a character take a feat that did this?  The level 6 cap is interesting but I think higher level abilities can be interesting.  Is a level 1 character that can teleport once a day going to throw the world off.  I guess what I'm asking is why you draw the line where you do.  Looking at skills and what real people can do it makes some sense.  Looking at someone not having so many hitpoints or be able to do so much damage that they can take on small armies makes sense.  But for other things ....?

ps..  why do your last 4 posts all say that you have made 2,141 posts?



			
				rycanada said:
			
		

> I think that's fine; if you include artificers in your game, I'd say that items up to CL 8 can be found.
> 
> Also, welcome to the boards!


----------



## Aust Diamondew

Miar said:
			
		

> ps..  why do your last 4 posts all say that you have made 2,141 posts?



It list your post total on all posts not the number of total posts you had at the time of the post.


----------



## Ry

Good time to clarify.  There's two approaches to feats that I think are both valid.  One is more conservative than the other.

Here's the old 'minimum feats allowed' principle; the Gestalt Approach:
_"If you could build a 6th-level character with some ability, then I think it should be fair game for that ability to be at the end of a feat chain."_

But there's also the Cautious Approach:
_"Before trying to make a new feat to cover a particular kind of character improvement, see if you already have an official feat that helps enhance that same character concept."_

While I use the Gestalt Approach, a minimalist approach to E6 (even if you allowed all WotC splats) would be the Cautious Approach.  I am going to write up the main E6 .pdf in terms of the Cautious Approach and put the Gestalt Approach in an appendix.

So, if you:
1) Allow the Artificer
2) Use the Gestalt Approach to your feats
then
3) You should allow a feat to get the +2 CL for item creation purposes only.  Of course, this doesn't change spells available, etc.

PS: The forum post count is always up-to-date; they're relative to me at the present, not me at the time that I posted.  If you look at a post I made a year ago it will still say rycanada has made 2141 posts.


----------



## rom90125

Here is a response I received from my best player (and best friend) regarding E6:



> I think this would suck!  Realistically, there are very few magic items that can be produced at only 6th level.  And a 6th level PC, no matter home many feats he has, is never going to be able to challenge a dragon.  So, unless the other (monster) side of the equation is balanced appropriately, this is not going to work.
> 
> 
> However, if the monsters were balanced, it has potential.  It would reflect much more accurately the majority of fantasy literature out there.  What I mean is, how many times in a novel is the hero in mortal peril from something we in the D&D world would consider a pretty low level threat.  A lot!  In other words, any PC should be at threat from a sniper on a roof that makes an exceptional (i.e., critical hit) shot.




<sigh>...and I was really looking forward to running E6 with this group.  I guess I will have to find some other players in my area that are willing to try something different.


----------



## Ry

Yeah, he seems to have the same issue: He thinks that dragons need to have 20 HD and be CR 17 to be dragons.


----------



## Ry

You might want to say "The monster side of the equation WOULD be balanced against these PCs" 

E6 characters aren't intended to go up against high-level D&D threats.


----------



## Miar

You could do the vitality wound point system so that higher lv characters would be more at risk.   There's an expansion/version that deals with some of the bugs running around somewhere (actually I think it's on a fan site for midnight -is that the setting, it's listed as a general fan expansion that has other stuff as well).   The thing about this though is it doesn't deal with the real world skill aspect.  Reworking the skill system to be accurate at higher levels seems like it would be a lot of work.




			
				rom90125 said:
			
		

> Here is a response I received from my best player (and best friend) regarding E6:
> 
> 
> 
> <sigh>...and I was really looking forward to running E6 with this group.  I guess I will have to find some other players in my area that are willing to try something different.


----------



## Ry

This issue (monsters are out of whack) is clearly the part of E6 that is understood the least.  I will try to make it clearer by adding this section to the bottom of the main document.

*For the GM*

E6 isn't just a change for the players: The scale for monsters in E6 is different than d20.  Just as level 6 parties shouldn't be expected to tangle with monsters higher than CR 10, the mighty monsters of E6 should be made using a CR 7-10 as a base, and then enhancing those creatures with feats.  

Huge and Gargantuan creatures can be created from smaller ones with templates and feats - but not with extra hit dice.


----------



## Animus

rycanada said:
			
		

> Huge and Gargantuan creatures can be created from smaller ones with templates and feats - but not with extra hit dice.




Like what templates, and where?


----------



## Ry

If I don't find a decent one I'll write it.  

Essentially the template is "gain 2 size categories as per the table in the MM" but I'd also double the Con bonus since we're not adding hit dice.


----------



## Ry

This (both the note about templates and my response about size category templating) is probably an example of:

"Something ry thinks is obvious but... *isn't*!"


----------



## joela

*Why not?*



			
				rycanada said:
			
		

> E6 characters aren't intended to go up against high-level D&D threats.




I don't see why not. However, it'll require a different mindset: _teamwork_, lotta major quests to secure the "powerful" items to take down the CR10+5 dragon/demon/lich/whatever, etc. I was checking out (now defunct) SSS' various supplements as well as Malhavoc's Eldritch series and they have plenty of great ideas on how to use rituals, runes, ceremonies to "power up" PCs so they could face -- at least temporarily -- take on those threats toe-to-toe. This is very much in the vein of most literary fantasy fiction.


----------



## Ry

Perhaps I should have said:

E6 characters aren't intended to go up against high-level D&D threats _under the same circumstances as high-level D&D characters._


----------



## joela

*More feats per 5k experience?*



			
				rycanada said:
			
		

> E6 characters aren't intended to go up against high-level D&D threats.




Another thought: would increasing the number of feats per 5k (2-4?) improve PCs' "power" to face regular DnD high-end threats like dragons?


----------



## Ry

Eventually, maybe.  But I'd still say that your circumstance notes are more important.  And that's hard to gauge.  I certainly can't see an E6 character going up against a Concordant Killer, or a Titan, and winning.


----------



## joela

rycanada said:
			
		

> Perhaps I should have said:
> 
> E6 characters aren't intended to go up against high-level D&D threats _under the same circumstances as high-level D&D characters._




Yeah. Or _...under the same criteria or rules as high-level D&D characters._ Then provide examples of regular high-level threats and PCs versus E6 threats (i.e., CR10+5) and PCs.


----------



## joela

*Returning to the inspiration*



			
				rycanada said:
			
		

> I certainly can't see an E6 character going up against a Concordant Killer, or a Titan, and winning.




If E6 is based on literary fantasy, how'd such characters deal with similar foes? One could view the _Call of Cthulhu_ stories as the ultimate mismatch between heroes and antagonists.


----------



## Ry

Well, if a Titan has meteor swarm, and almost 400 hitpoints, the ability to fly at will, greater dispel magic, and so on... then I can't think of an example of a character going up against one in literature.

Just like a high-level character is overbuilt and clunky representation of a fantasy hero, a monster like a Titan is an overbuilt and clunky representation of, say, Goliath.


----------



## Ry

Also, if you're looking at Call of Cthulhu then you're definitely talking about different circumstances compared to D&D.  Those antagonists aren't monsters to fight like they are in D&D; and if you're not supposed to fight them directly, I think that's the ultimate change in circumstances.


----------



## rom90125

I guess I could attempt to show my group that E6 would work against higher CR critters by running a one shot with 6th lvl characters taking on CR10 critters and ending the adventure with a BBEG dragon (minus the HD)....


----------



## Ry

That sounds like a good exercise Rom.  How many players do you have?  I'd love to do something like, make up some E6 iconics and a short adventure to show off the system.


----------



## Ry

New attempt at explaining this right, since I'm 90% sure that joela and I don't actually disagree, it's just an apparent disagreement because I'm glossing things over:

*For the GM*

E6 isn't just a change for the players:  Monsters are presented differently than in d20.  Just as level 6 parties in D&D aren’t expected to tangle with monsters higher than CR 10, the mighty monsters of E6 require special consideration for presentation in-game.  E6 characters aren't intended to go up against high-level D&D threats under the same circumstances as high-level D&D characters; those creatures, if they are defeatable at all, require the kind of resources and planning far beyond the typical D&D encounter.

In terms of raw rules, CR 7-10 monsters are an excellent guide for what E6 characters can handle.  Beyond that, a DM should take CR 7-10 monsters and use feats (and to a lesser extent templates) to advance them.  Hit die or class-based advancement beyond CR 10, or base monsters above CR 10 should generally be avoided as straight-up fights.

Of course, not every monstrous encounter is a straight-up fight.  For example, insane horrors from another age might be a reason to _run_, and there is little a character could do in the face of an angry Titan.  But these situations don’t call for direct confrontation, except with some special resource or amazing circumstance.  Perhaps, in a special ritual with the presence of 20 mages, a Titan can be bound to the mortal realm (lowering its stats to an Aspect of Kord), with whom the players can do battle.  Again, that's far from a straight-up fight with a CR 20 creature, but we can console ourselves with the fact that this is an awesome encounter.


----------



## joela

*Viewpoint*



			
				rycanada said:
			
		

> New attempt at explaining this right, since I'm 90% sure that joela and I don't actually disagree, it's just an apparent disagreement because I'm glossing things over:




Disagree? Nope, not by a longshot.I'm just looking at other resources that give E6 PCs a _semblance_ of power to take on high-end regular DnD antagonists like a Titan. Example: There's a ritual in the SSS supplement, Relics & Rituals, that'll bind even a demigod. While the requirements include being a minimum level of 7 or 9 (I can't remember which right now) to use it, that could be either handwaved or by doubling (or quadrupling!) the rest of the requirements like the minimum number of characters/XPs/gold/etc. needed to cast the spell. 

Other methods to dealing with a Titan head on is to pursuade an equally powerful being to take it on/grant the PCs enough temporary power to fight the Titan directly/location of a fantasy mecha/know the enemy Titan's weak spot (i.e., roll Fort. save, no modifiers, _die_ if fail), etc. 

From my perspective, high level DnD PCs are superheroes/minor demi-gods; they have all their fantastic abilities/powers _all the time_.   

But what if they don't have access to those powers most of the time? That's where E6, to me, works beautiful: most of the time the PCs are incredible capable but mortal. But compare a E6+3 PC versus a 9th level PC, with the latter possessing all those extra hps, BAB, etc., of its class (never mind "appropriate" magic items at that level!) and the power gap is too extreme.


----------



## Ry

I rewrote the last paragraph in light of your comment just now: 

Of course, not every monstrous encounter is a straight-up fight.  For example, insane horrors from another age might be a reason to _run_, and there is little a character could do in the face of an angry Titan.  But these situations don’t call for direct confrontation, except with some special resource or amazing circumstance.  Perhaps, in a special ritual with the presence of 20 mages, a Titan can be bound to the mortal realm (lowering its stats to an Aspect of Kord), with whom the players can do battle.  Again, that's far from a straight-up fight with a CR 20 creature, but we can console ourselves with the fact that it's probably a very memorable encounter.


----------



## rom90125

rycanada said:
			
		

> That sounds like a good exercise Rom.  How many players do you have?  I'd love to do something like, make up some E6 iconics and a short adventure to show off the system.




I have 6 regular players in my group, plus 4 more in another group in which I am the 5th PC.


----------



## joela

*Memorable*



			
				rycanada said:
			
		

> but we can console ourselves with the fact that it's probably a very memorable encounter.




Virtually every player, including myself, remembers their so-called "lower level" adventures against a party of orcs or other, similar, creature and how nail-biting it was to survive. I think E6 can maintain a similar feel in DnD w/o resorting to save-or-die spells or mega-damage


----------



## Ry

joela said:
			
		

> Virtually every player, including myself, remembers their so-called "lower level" adventures against a party of orcs or other, similar, creature and how nail-biting it was to survive. I think E6 can maintain a similar feel in DnD w/o resorting to save-or-die spells or mega-damage




That's exactly the idea - mega damage and save-or-die don't make for more exciting encounters.  When you're targeted with save-or-die, or hit for 1d20+500 damage, you're not nervous for longer than the time it takes to roll 1 die.


----------



## Ry

I've started a thread about the feats I think are the minimum required for E6.  I put them separately because I'd like to have a discussion just about them.

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=200662


----------



## Dragonblade275

rycanada said:
			
		

> That sounds like a good exercise Rom.  How many players do you have?  I'd love to do something like, make up some E6 iconics and a short adventure to show off the system.



I'd LOVE to see that, Ry.  I think that's something that's needed for E6.


----------



## Aage

This rules are great, I'm gonna try to get my people to try them, at E8 though...

Would be interesting to try and create the fellowship of the ring using these rules...


----------



## Ioreck

The only problem is that the fighter is even worse under this system - the one feature he has over others, mass amounts of feats, becomes worthless after a while.  barbarians can overwhelm them, and a warblade would stll be a better choice (even without bonus damage and such).

If you just cutoff at level 6, then sure, a fighter would still rock - lots more feats.  But granting them every 5k xp after is too much...

Why not grant them, and ability adjustments, as normal?  hit a certain exp, gain a +1 to an ability, another get a feat, etc.


----------



## wolfpunk

If you look in the DMG for calculating experience, a CR 14 creature provides experience points for a 6-7th level party, this means that while extremely challenging it should be possible to win. Not too mention that assumes a party of four characters, but what about parties of 5 or more players.

It seems to me (and this is just opinion) that players that complain about monsters being too hard, just don't want their characters to die. It seems to me that a party that trusted their dm could have a blast. 

I mean, when we play normal d&d we trust the dm to not put our 6th level characters up against challenges they have no chance against, why would playing E6 change that?


----------



## Dragonblade275

I agree, Wolfpunk.  There's plenty of lattitude in the CR's available as enemies at 6th level.  Especially with 6-8 characters.


----------



## Dragonblade275

Ioreck said:
			
		

> The only problem is that the fighter is even worse under this system - the one feature he has over others, mass amounts of feats, becomes worthless after a while.  barbarians can overwhelm them, and a warblade would stll be a better choice (even without bonus damage and such).
> 
> If you just cutoff at level 6, then sure, a fighter would still rock - lots more feats.  But granting them every 5k xp after is too much...



I see your point, here, Ioreck.  Eventually, the fighter is only ahead of SOME of the characters in terms of BAB or Fort Save.  There has to be a way for fighters to improve ESPECIALLY if we're going to consider allowing casters to gain extra spell slots and/or improved caster level(s) via feats.  More on this in the E6 Feats Thread.


----------



## Ry

Not to mention NPC help, disposeable items, etc.


----------



## wolfpunk

Idea for Fighters. 

Starting at third level a fighter may choose to add half of her fighter levels rounded up to one the following: Dodge bonus to AC, Insight bonus to Attack Rolls, or an Insight Bonus to Damage Rolls. The fighter may choose when to apply the bonus during a fight, but may not change their choice during that encounter.


Of course, this was something I thought of when I was thinking of allowing fighters to advance to seventh level if it was their races favored class. That would give a +4 bonus which I thought was decent, a +3 bonus for fifth level would be good though I think.


----------



## Ry

Ioreck, what do you think of the Gestalt Approach, where although others can pick up feats, fighters could pick up, say Rage or spellcasting ability with enough feats?

To me this all says fighter is a little on the weak side to begin with.


----------



## Scurvy_Platypus

Well.... Fighters _do_ kinda suck. The only reason for taking them is the feats. Seems like every time I turn around there's some sort of thread about "How do you fix the fighter?" or "What do you do for fighters?" or "What is the best alternative to Fighters" or some other such thing.

Personally, I don't see the big deal with less fighters being played. It just means there's less Fighters being played. I don't have anything against Fighters, I actually tend to play 'em pretty regularly.

If you really want to encourage more fighters to be played... make some Fighter exclusive feats.

Professional Warrior
For each level of Fighter that a character has, add +1 to the damage inflicted by the Fighter in combat.

Lifetime of Experience
For every feat a Fighter has that is allowed as a Fighter Bonus Feat, add +1 to the damage the Fighter inflicts in combat.

Let them stack if you want to really encourage Fighters. So for example, a 6th level Fighter with both of those feats and 6 feats that show up on the Bonus Fighter List would be adding +12 to their damage. Not bad incentive right there.

If that's too over the top, then instead of having both of those feats being "always on", make the Fighter spend conviction for each of the feats. So that means that in order to get that sweet +12 damage, the Fighter in the example above would need to spend 2 Conviction.


----------



## wolfpunk

The fighter is only weak because the concept of E6 gives the fighter's milk away for free so to speak. If E6 gave characters +1d6 sneak attack every 5,000 xp after 6th level, the rogue would be getting the short end of the deal, if E6 gave characters a bonus arcane spell slot, wizards would complain, and so on.

Unless you come up with something that no character class has to begin with, one character class is always going to end up being less valued.


----------



## Aage

The easiest way to fix that (and to fix fighter in general) would be to give the fighter something that is not feats at the dead levels he has (in e6, that would be levels 3 and 5)...

Edit: Or, to scrap fighter and use warblade


----------



## wolfpunk

Another Idea

Fighter as an Armor Specialist

At 1st, 2nd, 4th, and 6th level the fighter decreases the ACP of any armor she wears and is proficient with by 1 to a minimum of 0 and increases the maximum dexterity bonus by 1 to a maximum of +12


----------



## Ry

I disagree wolfpunk, I'm pretty sure the fighter sucks regardless, and the fact that fighter 6+ 5 feats is less appealing than barbarian 6 +5 feats just makes it more obvious.  

BUT, and this is a big BUT:  Like the Sorc/Wizard problem, I don't think the solution needs to be embedded in E6.  It would be nice, but the more I see these discussions, the more approaches I see to the solutions.  

Some GMs will allow AE fighter classes (totem warriors, unfettered, ritual warriors, and warmains).  Some GMs will allow fighters to get better feats at lower levels.  Some will give fighters cool abilities in their off levels (dead level anyone?).  For me, these issues aren't sufficient to cause actual problems between my players, or between me and the players, so I leave them as they are because low-level tinkering without playtesting is a greater evil than a few conceptual issues with class balance.  So I figure, in lieu of a great consensus on how to approach these issues in D&D, this is going to be a decision done by each GM anyway, so there's not a big point in locking E6 into one of those approaches.


----------



## wolfpunk

Probably just need more feats that require weapon specialization. Maybe I should write a PDF for E6 fighters.


----------



## Ry

Oh, if you want to see some great Gestalt Approach feats, turn to the Generic Classes section of Unearthed Arcana.  Several of those (the ones that fit under the cap) would work very well with only a few wording changes (for example, the damage listed for the sneak attack shouldn't stack with a rogue's sneak attack).


----------



## Aage

If using the favoured enemy feat from UA generics, I'd suggest putting a cap on how big a favoured bonus can become, otherwise you could have silly rangers running around with +40 something


----------



## Ioreck

I would avoid the gestalt idea - it encroaches too much on other classes.  If you want rage, play a barbarian etc.

In my opinion the warblade is what a fighter should be.  Playing as a warblade is the quickest fix.

Otherwise, i think incorporating the ph2 ideas would be good.

In my E6 style game, characters play the warblade, and i use the fighter for npcs.

So tehre are warriors, the common foes, fighters, the more experienced ones, and then character classes for the real challenges.

So, in a single encounter, the party may fight 4 level 1 warriors and a level 1 fighter.

In my campaign, where being greater than level 1 means you're pretty freakin skilled, the majority of opponents are going to be level 1.  My rule of thumb: if you're greater than level 1, you get core class levels.  If you're level 1 but you're like a leader of the crew, you get a fighter level (ie a bonus feat).  Fighters DO suck regardless, but they're better than you're average warrior!

As to the *still* remaining major difference between casters and warriors, what i do is say when you get a second attack, its still at you're highest bab.  So 6th level (epic in my campaign) with high BAB gives two +6/+6 attacks.


----------



## knight_isa

wolfpunk said:
			
		

> Probably just need more feats that require weapon specialization. Maybe I should write a PDF for E6 fighters.




Requiring Weapon Specialization isn't enough, though.  That just requires fighter-4.

I've been thinking about it, and really, the only reasons to stick with fighter past 4th are the high number of feats and the higher level fighter-only feats.  When you stop at 6th, and everyone eventually gets lots of feats, that negates both of those reasons.  After fighter-4, you'd become a better "fighter" by multiclassing into one or more of the many full BAB classes.

I think I'll be going with E8 since I think my sweet spot is a bit higher than 6th, and the presence of Greater Weapon Focus mitigates that issue for me somewhat.  It would be nice to see more Fighter-only feats though.


----------



## Evilhalfling

hmm going off on a tangent - 
unless you slow down xp gain as well, then the world have everyone and their mom at 6th level.   But slowing down advancement means less leveling up fun for characters.
If I was to run a campaign that concentrated on a low levels, cutting xp gained to 1/2 and then each character gaining a feat at 1/2 way to the next level.  this further devalues the fighter by giving everyone lots of feats up front. But everyone not playing a fighter might have more fun with it.  

The problem with running E6 as a one shot (which I considered doing)   is that its uniqueness is in the structure of the campaign world, and in general advancement,  otherwise the limitations are no more than many normally found in one shots.



Another solution that would encourage single classing all Warrior types would be to withhold +6 BAB for all multi-classed warriors. (or require spending 10k to gain the last point.)


----------



## phindar

There's a lot you can do to fix Fighters under E6, but it seems like at that point we're making a new class just to preserve the name "Fighter".  There's already a ton of base classes who fight, and the Fighter is still a good choice for a character that needs feats but doesn't plan to go Epic.


----------



## Matrix Sorcica

Let only single class fighters be able to qualify for feats beyond the 6 level limit, greater weapon focus, greater weapon spec., improved X etc.

Not sure it's enough, but it's a start.


----------



## Aage

phindar said:
			
		

> There's a lot you can do to fix Fighters under E6, but it seems like at that point we're making a new class just to preserve the name "Fighter".  There's already a ton of base classes who fight, and the Fighter is still a good choice for a character that needs feats but doesn't plan to go Epic.




Word! 

No, but seriously, I agree actually. Saving the fighter because of his name is rather silly, and the fact of the matter is that any character that heavily depends on bonus feats (fighter, and psychic warrior to a lesser extent) will be significantly hampered in E6. For the fighter the fix is simple, Warblade. The psychic warrior on the other concerns me more, since there isn't really anything similar that could easily take its place (well, not for me at least, I don't use regular magic, just psionics).

Ah, well... Multiclassing will have to do, I guess


----------



## Matrix Sorcica

Doesn't E6 become less attractive when you have to get a splat book to play a "fighter"?


----------



## Ry

You don't have to get a splat book to play a fighter.  You don't even need to fix the fighter.  _I don't fix the fighter_, and my game runs fine, and it's still used.  The fighter's weaknesses aren't so severe that it's not a viable PC.  Some players will still take it because they want to be 4 feats ahead in some nifty feat chain.


----------



## Matrix Sorcica

Yep.
What I meant was in reference to the Warblade. Should have used a quote.


----------



## Ry

Oh, sorry, I thought you meant E6 had a fighter problem that D&D didn't have.


----------



## MeepoDM

...


----------



## Ry

Too good.  I'd rather give him a feat at EVERY level, at least that way you can keep the discussion of balance to feat-comparison.  That would give the fighter 2 more feats, which I think brings them up to the Barbarian.


----------



## MeepoDM

...


----------



## Aage

Come to think of it, feats will be far more valueable in a low levelled campaign setting like this as well... a barbarian will pretty much need extra rage; the +2 from weapon spec. could actually do some significant difference when monsters don't have 500+ hp; bards gaining +4 musics per day is far more attractive when they only have 6/day, rather than 20/day...

So having 4 (or 6 if 1/level) extra feats could be pretty darned good actually...


----------



## Ry

OK, look at this - this combines Extra Sorcery and Extra Wizardry into 1 feat, which benefits Sorcerers more than Wizards slightly (by design).  This one you can gain some 3rd level slots but you can't advance radically quickly because of the a bottom-heavy requirement. 

*Extra Casting*
Prerequisites:  Character level 6, caster level 4+
Benefit: Choose a spell level that you have access to.  You gain 1 spell slot and 1 new spell known.  If you are a prepared caster treat this as an automatic spell learned.  You must choose a slot such that you have more 0th level spell slots than 1st, more 1st than 2nd, and more 2nd than 3rd.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times.


----------



## Ry

bah. wrong thread


----------



## iceifur

Well, don't forget the "Dungeon Crasher" Fighter variant in _Dungeonscape_. For the cost of your 2nd- and 6th-lvl bonus Fighter feats, you too can bull rush someone into a wall or other object for 8d6 + (Str bonus x 3) damage, and you also get some pretty major bonuses on breaking things and avoiding traps. The damage is also nice, considering the Sorcerer's/Wizard's _fireball_ tops out at 6d6 under this system (though the fiery ball does hit everyone in a certain radius).


----------



## PoeticJustice

I don't think we've anything to gain by analyzing the perceived weakness of the fighter in this context. I also find it a tough pill to swallow, considering last summer I had a Spiked-Chain fighter in my group that made the _Cleric_ complain about power levels.


----------



## Cheiromancer

I find it helpful to review the first post of this thread- the design goals of E6.  I read it as preserving the heroic fantasy sweet spot for as long as possible, and with as simple a fix as possible.  Not worrying about whether the fighter is too weak at 6th level.  Not trying to make Wuxia or Superhero characters with the rules.  Etc.

The questions I'd keep asking myself would be: "What would a party of 6th level characters do in this situation?"  and "Is the genre still heroic fantasy?"

So if there is need of a _stone to flesh_, what would a 6th level party do?  Find an NPC, most likely.  So that's what you do: and figure out what an NPC would ask of a 6th level party.  A quest for special ingredients?  Gold?  And then handwave the rest: maybe he has a special 3rd level spell with an enormous casting time and special material components that otherwise acts like _stone to flesh_.  Maybe a feat chain.  But there's no particular need to work out the details.

Personally, I'd go with the "scroll equivalence" route.  The PCs have to go to as much effort as it would take in a  standard campaign to get and use the appropriate scroll.  Call it a ritual or whatever, but if a 6th level party can get a scroll of _greater restoration_ then an E6 party should be able to get the same result, though flavor might differ.

I like Nifft's idea about allowing a saving throw every day until a negative level goes away.  If that seems too generous, make it every week.  But that is a way of reducing dependence on powerful NPCs and/or magic shops.  It is not really necessary to describe it in E6, since a standard campaign could use it with a standard party of 6th level characters.

I'd be cautious about allowing feats, spells and magic items in an E6 campaign that raises the power level greatly.  According to the first post, above level 10 or so the game genre is wuxia rather than heroic fantasy- you want to stay short of that.  Efforts to make an E6 character equivalent in power to a 20th level character should also be avoided: that's outside the sweet spot.  Using really powerful monsters with weak PCs makes the game more like Call of Cthulhu, and I'd avoid that too.  That's what I mean by asking "Is the genre still heroic fantasy?"

Personally, I would allow a slower progression through the sweet spot.  My rules would be something like the following:

1. Heroic Start: Player characters start at 3rd level.  
2. Ever Slower Advancement: Level ups occur at 5K, 10K, 20K, 40K, 80K xp etc.. 
3. Regular Cookies: Every 5K the PC gets something: if they are not leveling up, they get a feat.  This is to so players can enjoy their character's growth in power.

I think 3rd level is low enough to allow organic character development, but high enough for characters to be capable and reasonably robust.  If the game is about heroic fantasy, the characters should be heroic from the get-go.

The rationale behind slowing down advancement more and more is to prolong the time in the sweet spot.  A 5th level character spends 10,000 xp at level 5; twice as long as a standard campaign.  A 6th level character spends 20K xp at level 6; over three times as long as normal.  And so on.  I prefer a slightly higher sweet spot than 6th level, and these rules ensure that 7th level is not too far away, and 8th is quite possible (see chart below).

To ensure that players don't get bored with their static characters, they get feats at regular intervals when not advancing.  

Most other rules I'd consider under the categories of "How to make PCs less reliant on NPCs" (for _restorations, stone to fleshes_ and _raise deads_, etc.) and "How to tweak class balance around level 6" (e.g. to ensure fighters are viable, sorcerers aren't underpowered, etc.)  But I would think that these are separate discussions from E6.

p.s. The xp chart would look like the following.  I think it starts out much like E6, but ends up like E8.  I don't know what a good name for this rules variant would be.



		Code:
	

xp total   level + extra feats
0            3
5 000        4
10 000       5
15 000       5 + 1
20 000       6 + 1
25 000       6 + 2
30 000       6 + 3
35 000       6 + 4
40 000       7 + 4
45 000       7 + 5
50 000       7 + 6
55 000       7 + 7
60 000       7 + 8
65 000       7 + 9
70 000       7 + 10
75 000       7 + 11
80 000       8 + 11
85 000       8 + 12
90 000       8 + 13
95 000       8 + 14
100 000      8 + 15
etc.


I'd give xp based on the actual character level, not counting bonus feats.  That means that at, say, 8th level the PCs will be handling tougher challenges than the average 8th level characters, but given that they need 10 times the experience to get to 9th level, I think that will be OK.  Maybe a LA will be necessary- +1 every 10 feats or something.  Or after level 7 or so just give an average award of 5000 xp per play session.  Dunno - playtesting would help.  And xp awards might be a separate topic, too.


----------



## Ry

bad wrongpost, is deleted now


----------



## Evilhalfling

I’m with Chieronomancer E6 is all about using D&D to simulate heroic fantasy, rather than the D&D genre.  Slowing advancement, changing demographics, and revising treasure tables are all necessary for this type of game to work.  

 I do think people only need advancement every other session, if it is every session there is less sense of anticipation.  Some of my players, esp. those who don’t plan their full advancement, would get frustrated with having to choose a new feat every game. 

Although I like 7th-8th level, it does open a can of worms with regard to what items can be created like stat boosters, and +1 weapon enhancements.

Anyone interested in making a E6 wondrous item list? Using the assumption that caster level of the item is not a prerequisite for creation( Per FAQ, etc), but the spells used being 3rd level or lower is.  +1 armor, +1 weapons, scroll, potions, wands are all easily determined, wondrous items vary widely.


----------



## Ry

I definitely see the appeal of running levels 3 through 8: Instead of working up to and sitting in the sweet spot of a-bit-better-than-6th, it would play with the fun of advancing (slowly) _through_ that range.

Cheiromancer makes some good points, and at the moment I must admit I'm torn.  Is 3-8 (with feats leaning the power level towards 10) more fun than 1-6 (with feats leaning power more towards 8)?  Or should my new game of E6 start at 3 and go to 6 plus feats?


----------



## joela

*E6 versus E8*



			
				rycanada said:
			
		

> Cheiromancer makes some good points, and at the moment I must admit I'm torn.  Is 3-8 (with feats leaning the power level towards 10) more fun than 1-6 (with feats leaning power more towards 8)?  Or should my new game of E6 start at 3 and go to 6 plus feats?




Simple enough to find out. 

I've learned that theory doesn't always concur with game play.   rycanada, run your new game as per originally planned while cheiromancer runs his (her?) players throught the variant. Both of you document, then post, your experiences and thoughts here on enworld. We can all then see how the systems are affected by the different epic levels and experience progression.


----------



## Ry

Well, I was thinking of starting at 2nd or 3rd anyway (I've run origin stories to death).  So I think the most likely is E6 but starting with 3001 XP.  E6 qua E6 (a hard cap followed by feats) was the pitch that earned me 2 extra interested players for this upcoming game.


----------



## knight_isa

rycanada said:
			
		

> Cheiromancer makes some good points, and at the moment I must admit I'm torn.  Is 3-8 (with feats leaning the power level towards 10) more fun than 1-6 (with feats leaning power more towards 8)?  Or should my new game of E6 start at 3 and go to 6 plus feats?




I think that it really depends on what levels you and your players enjoy the most.

For me, as a DM, I think the sweet spot starts around 5th level and goes through 8th (although I have to admit to enjoying building up to 5th as well).

I was planning on using the concept of E6, stretching it to be E8.  I was was even pondering placing feats in between (in sort of a L6 -> 5 feats -> L7 -> 5 feats -> L8 -> more feats progression).  I think Cheiromancer's suggestion will work out really well for me, and from what input I've had from my group I think it will work better for us than E6.

That said, I still think E6 has merit.  It really all depends on where your "sweet spot" is, and what sort of story you want to play out.


----------



## Ry

I do think E6 has merit, because I've played it.  But even if all this discussion caused was people using the rules their way, instead of being pushed from the game they like (say, levels 5-10) to the game they don't (11-20) then it was a good exercise.


----------



## Ry

(I was only torn for a minute there, until I realized that I could get Malazan Book of the Fallen style goodness out of levels 3 to 6 and keep doing E6.)


----------



## Dragonblade275

Cheiromancer,

I like your suggestion about changing the way XP works.  Though, I'd leave the XP table the same as in the Player's Handbook and just adjust the amount of XP awarded.

Though, slowing level advancement might be irritating for some players.  And, I've read that that was one of the reasons for making it so quick in 3.0 & 3.5 as compared with previous editions.  Perhaps, breaking down each level into four parts (as Ryan has suggested somewhere) would help?

Either way, E6 is a great idea.  I can see simulating most of my favorite swords & sorcery stories with just E6.  The Death Dealer, Conan, Dragonlance...  Just about all of them could work in E6.

But, our group is going to play 3.5 with some house-rules through level 20 at least once before committing to an E6 campaign.


----------



## joela

*Malazan*



			
				rycanada said:
			
		

> (I was only torn for a minute there, until I realized that I could get Malazan Book of the Fallen style goodness out of levels 3 to 6 and keep doing E6.)




While I've heard of the series, I've never read it. Is it extreme high-fantasy or something?


----------



## Ry

It's funny.  I see it kind of like Eberron but instead of translating 1st to 6th level characters into a big fat modern economy it's more like taking those characters (lots of wizards and other magic users, btw) and putting them on different sides of a clash of civilizations.  There's some high fantasy elements there, but most of the really high powered stuff is in the hands of gods, demons, or elder races from another age (all of whom are quite impressive).  While there's a few humans that have become demigods and can transform into dragons the characters I think of as "the humans" - or the protagonists - are quite mortal, and I think they could be done in E6.

cient past, etc.)  For example, if there was a demiplane nearby, is a 3rd level spell OK to dimension door over to it?  I'd say that's a fine spell.


----------



## Ry

Here's another point about starting level:  If you start at level 1 you should want to do an origin story, whether it's E6 or not.  If you don't want to do an origin story, you should start at level 2 or higher.


----------



## Ry

Oh, and I only mentioned Malazan instead of R. Scott Bakker's books because they're more well known.  Bakker's writing is spectacular.


----------



## Ry

OK, new version is up.  Please post there, I am going to ask a mod to lock this thread.

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=200754


----------



## Michael Morris

Thread Closed at OP's request.


----------



## Darkness

rycanada said:
			
		

> OK, new version is up.  Please post there, I am going to ask a mod to lock this thread.



 Done.


----------

