# Help me build a better Beguiler



## CCH_LLC

Apologies in advance if this is a duplicate of other threads, but I am recently back to D&D and finding myself a bit overwhelmed by all the information.  I am pretty familiar with the D20 system and if you check my history you will see I have asked similar questions to this for other classes, but that was a while ago and since then I have been playing rifts don't really know where to start when 3.5 optimization is concerned.  

So here is my challenge to the forum prodigies, I am going to join a Temple of Elemental Evil campaign, and I want to build a character that is effective in social situations, and in encounters is more of a battle field controller then someone who deals damage himself.  I have seen the Beguiler handbook here and while I can see it is very well written and comprehensive, it is way more then I can really digest.  Also all of the builds go up to 20, and I will just be level 5.  I have already rolled stats and lucked out with a 17, 15, 14, 14, 13, 12 which is phenomenal to be honest (we get to reroll ones)and I think I have a lot of potential with that.  

All wizards books are available, but please cite your sources.  Also I don't really want to dip into any other classes, but if it does something cool then by all means suggest it.  Also I am not really interested in being a replacement rogue, I would really prefer to be a face for the party/sneaky bastard/battlefield controller.  Basically something I can get points for being clever and manipulated in battle and out of it.


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## Nifft

Nice stats!

You want a high Intelligence, of course, both for skills and spellcasting. I'd go with:
Str: 12
Dex: 14
Con: 15
Int: 17
Wis: 13
Cha: 14

Your biggest decision is: do you want to spend your first Advanced Learning on _shadow conjuration_, or _heroism_? The first is a wonderfully flexible attack spell, the second is a good buff if your group doesn't have a Bard.

If you want _shadow conjuration_, you'll have to take one level of a PrC before your 7th level of Beguiler. Mindbender (C.Arc) is a nice & easy dip for exactly one level.

IMHO Unsettling Enchantment (C.Mage) is the only non-obvious feat you should seriously consider.

Cheers, -- N


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## Darth Vyce

Another important feat for a beguiler is the Combat Charm feat found in the Dragon Magazine Compendium. This will assist you in charming critters during combat. Here is a beguiler build that I helped a friend put together:

Sidewinder Monk 2/Beguiler 18 (or just Beguiler 20)

Feats
Persuasive (b)
Imp Feint (b)
Practised Caster
Imp Initiative
Combat Charm
Spl Focus[Ench]
Gtr Spl Focus[Ench]
Mobile Spellcasting
Song of the Dead (Dragon 312)*
* Song of the Dead is a metamagic feat which allows enchantments to effect undead.

Overall it was pretty solid as he could use feint as a free action which in turn activated his cloaked casting ability.


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## szilard

A straightforward Beguiler can be remarkably effective. The most important thing is to know your spell list inside and out.

In terms of bonus spells, Shadow Conjuration is your best bet - if you can figure out how to get it. Heroism isn't a bad spell, but it won't really expand your options - you'll already have Haste.

In terms of feats, don't spend them on skill-boosting things: you'll have a huge number of skill points. Beguilers already have an advantage in spell DCs - boosting that even more will make your 'save negates' spells more useful. Seriously consider some of the reserve feats in Complete Mage. As a spontaneous caster, they provide you with a lot of flexibility.

Combat Expertise and Improved Feint look good, but think about how often you'll actually be in melee before you take them.

-Stuart


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## Corsair

If you want versatility, Shadowcraft Mage (using the aforementioned Mindbender dip to delay the Advanced Learning by one level) is an excellent addition, giving you all those neat blasty spells you didn't already have.


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## Haffrung Helleyes

I wouldn't recommend Combat Expertise or Improved Feint, I think you won't be in melee enough for it to be worthwhile.

I would focus your feats on upping your spell DCs, and (at higher levels) being better at beating SR.

The only prestige class I would consider is a 1-level dip in Mindbender to delay your 2nd Advanced Learning pick , and pick up Telepathy.  Go Straight Beguiler the rest of the way.

Ken


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## Darth Vyce

I think Imp Feint is important as it allows a beguiler to trigger their cloaked casting ability more often. Using the following trick allows you to stay out of melee ... hopefully:

Expeditious Retreat + Mobile Casting + Feint (as a free action w/Imp Feint) = awesome 

This way you will have a speed of around 60'. Mobile Casting allows you to cast a spell & move your speed as a standard action (with a DC 20 Concentration Check). So, you could move toward an enemy, feint (free action), then make a Concentration Check, cast your spell, and move away again. Only problem with this is that the concentration check is somewhat high.


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## eamon

Plain, straight beguiler 20 works fine, and if you don't enjoy sifting through the beguiler handbook, you're probably not better off building some complex build, which won't improve your character much.

Get that Int as high as possible.
Choose your Advanced learning's wisely, they can really define your character, and you don't get many of em.  Shadow conjuration and eventually greater shadow conjuration are great to have.
You have a lot of skillpoints, so you can afford to stick a few into odd skills that are character-defining.  On the other hand, you have very few feats, so be sure to use those to support your strengths: casting (illusion+enchantment) spells.
If you're playing level 10+, then use magic device becomes quite attractive for all the versatile wands available (and perhaps a runestaff), especially if your party is missing a core spellcasting class.

What kind of level range do you have in mind?


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## eamon

Darth Vyce said:
			
		

> Expeditious Retreat + Mobile Casting + Feint (as a free action w/Imp Feint) = awesome



Where's Mobile casting from?


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## moritheil

Nifft's distribution is good.

I would suggest taking Mindbender at 6, as it is the only immediately obvious PrC dip for a beguiler (the rest involve specialization or specific ideas of what you want to do, but Mindbender is good no matter what.)  Beguiler X/Mindbender 1 is great stuff.

In order to get mindbender you have to have points invested in certain social skills.  In return for that and for the loss of 1 BAB and a few skill points, you get telepathy 100' and delay your 2nd advanced learning, which is good as it enables you to get a higher level spell.

Be aware that you will not be a blaster mage, which is the one thing that you might miss if you're used to playing sorcerers.  You are instead a supreme controller.


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## Darth Vyce

> Where's Mobile casting from?



Complete Adventurer. The feat is actually called Mobile Spell-Casting. 

Cheers


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## CCH_LLC

An update, I met with my friend who is DMing the game and it turns out we will be running a series of old fashioned Greyhawk modules in honor of Gygax, which I can really get behind as I have never really done anything like that as my only experience with D&D is Eberron.  

We are going to start with Temple of Elemental Evil and all characters are starting at level 5 and we are expected to be around level 12 when the module wraps up.  Learning that most of the campaign is going to be in dungeons I am now a bit hesitant to roll up  beguiler as a lot of his potential strength for intrigue seems like it would be wasted in this game.  I am profoundly grateful for the terrific advice thus far though and if you can make a compelling argument to stick with this class I am very willing to listen.  

However, since the party looks like it will consist of a cleric, monk, fighter/barbarian and myself I am leaning more towards a utility focused wizard.

Hijacking my own thread I would ask what a good character to roll up would be given the following criteria:

Starting level 5

9,000 GP

17, 15, 14, 14, 13, 12 for stats

Useful in a huge dungeon, and a strong in combat.


I am a flexible player, I can have a good enjoyable session avoiding combat, but I would like to have a useful role to play when it does happen.  If we can think up something awesome my DM has no problem with one player being stronger then the rest of the group.  

Thanks Guys!


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## moritheil

CCH_LLC said:
			
		

> We are going to start with Temple of Elemental Evil and all characters are starting at level 5 and we are expected to be around level 12 when the module wraps up.  Learning that most of the campaign is going to be in dungeons I am now a bit hesitant to roll up  beguiler as a lot of his potential strength for intrigue seems like it would be wasted in this game.  I am profoundly grateful for the terrific advice thus far though and if you can make a compelling argument to stick with this class I am very willing to listen.
> 
> However, since the party looks like it will consist of a cleric, monk, fighter/barbarian and myself I am leaning more towards a utility focused wizard.




I am currently playing a 5th level beguiler and I have done almost no social manipulation, instead being centered entirely around combat control.  I run around neutralizing enemies so that my allies can take them out (for example, I blind an enemy combat monster, and our sorc follows up with scorching ray - since the enemy is blind and does not get a dex bonus, it's pretty hard to miss that ranged touch attack.)

That said, if you are the only mage, then you might consider a more traditional mage class, particularly if the cleric is not keen on becoming an exclusive utility spell dispenser.


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## Darth Vyce

A gray elf wizard would prove to be a great utility wizard. Just take the first level substitution ability (RotW) and you should be good to go.  Here's a quick and simple build:

Ranger 1(or Fighter)/Wizard 6/Elf Paragon 3/Loremaster 10

Overall a pretty solid utility build. You only loose out on 2 caster levels which is somewhat offset by the racial substitution level. Some decent feats to think about ...

Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Augment Summoning
Spell Focus (conj)
Quicken Spell (b)
Silent Spell
Still Spell
Elven Spell Lore
Craft Wand

This would allow you to still stay in the game when you are out of spells via your ranged bow attacks. You could also use a heroics spell to "learn" Improved Precise Shot. Your summonings will prove helpful as well. They will be able to offer extra support with their spells/spell-likes/etc and to set up flanking.


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## Corsair

Or if you're feeling particularly silly, Beguiler 1 / Wizard 4 / Ultimate Magus 10 / XXXXX 5.

Be a human with Able Learner, and you'll easily be able to keep your rogue dungeon skills at max thanks to your high intelligence.  At 15th level you'd cast as a 13th level wizard, and have 8 levels of beguiler casting. (mostly used to fuel metamagic)  If you choose to specialize for even more spell slots, you can ditch enchantment and illusion, as you'll still have spells from those schools up to the first four levels thanks to Beguiler.  Become a focused specialist and you can probably get away without necromancy or evocation too.

You'd have more spell slots than you could shake a stick at.


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## moritheil

Beguiler / Wiz / Ultimate Magus / Shadowcraft Mage or Shadow Weave Adept is actually very effective with the gnome illusionist substitution levels on the Wiz side of things.  Spell Focus (Illusion), Shadow Weave Magic, etc. all pull double duty.


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## Slaved

It looks like you are missing a tracker so how about playing a Druid? By taking the Alternate Class Features from Unearthed Arcana that are also in the System Resource Document you could cover this role along with back-up healer and utility caster and be good in combat!   

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druid

If you get a Riding Dog trained for war as an Animal Companion you are between good and great at everything!     

Take a look at Primal Hunter and Primal Instinct in Dragon Magic. Heart of Air and Heart of Water from Complete Mage are also helpful. Lesser Vigor and Mass Lesser Vigor in Spell Compendium are fun!


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## StreamOfTheSky

Darth Vyce said:
			
		

> I think Imp Feint is important as it allows a beguiler to trigger their cloaked casting ability more often. Using the following trick allows you to stay out of melee ... hopefully:
> 
> Expeditious Retreat + Mobile Casting + Feint (as a free action w/Imp Feint) = awesome
> 
> This way you will have a speed of around 60'. Mobile Casting allows you to cast a spell & move your speed as a standard action (with a DC 20 Concentration Check). So, you could move toward an enemy, feint (free action), then make a Concentration Check, cast your spell, and move away again. Only problem with this is that the concentration check is somewhat high.




Actually, I'm pretty sure the DC is 20 PLUS SPELL LEVEL, and further, it is raised to 25 + spell level if you also want to cast defensively.  Those DC's just aren't worth it at level 5.  My advice is find a way to get reliable long-term flight, then pick up Fly-by Attack feat.  Obviously not an option at level 5, but neither is Mobile Spellcasting mathematically, and FbA is MUCH better and more versatile.


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## moritheil

StreamOfTheSky said:
			
		

> Actually, I'm pretty sure the DC is 20 PLUS SPELL LEVEL, and further, it is raised to 25 + spell level if you also want to cast defensively.  Those DC's just aren't worth it at level 5.  My advice is find a way to get reliable long-term flight, then pick up Fly-by Attack feat.  Obviously not an option at level 5, but neither is Mobile Spellcasting mathematically, and FbA is MUCH better and more versatile.




You're right about the DC.  However, does a feint work as an attack?  I don't think you can use Fly-by attack to do the "drive-by feinting."

IMO drive-by feinting is worthless, actually, as you could instead be blinding the enemy . . . but I suppose in certain strategies it's important.


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## StreamOfTheSky

Flyby Attack lets you do ANY standard action in between your move.  Which reminds me, I thought Beguilers eventually get to feint as a swift action anyway?  Even if you only get it as a move action, nothing's stopping you from using your standard action for a move action...


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## moritheil

StreamOfTheSky said:
			
		

> Flyby Attack lets you do ANY standard action in between your move.  Which reminds me, I thought Beguilers eventually get to feint as a swift action anyway?  Even if you only get it as a move action, nothing's stopping you from using your standard action for a move action...




OK.

Beguilers can only swift feint if they take the feat in addition to getting the class ability.


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## eamon

moritheil said:
			
		

> OK.
> 
> Beguilers can only swift feint if they take the feat in addition to getting the class ability.



...and that's not generally worth a feat ;-).  At high levels, you'll have better things to do with your swift action, and the benefit isn't that great to a beguiler.


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## moritheil

eamon said:
			
		

> ...and that's not generally worth a feat ;-).  At high levels, you'll have better things to do with your swift action, and the benefit isn't that great to a beguiler.




Yeah, I'm playing a beguiler now and 99% of the time you could instead be blinding or incapacitating a foe . . . denying it dex is paltry in comparison (and you can deny dex by blinding anyhow.)  There are only a few narrow circumstances in which feint is better, and they mostly revolve around conserving spell slots.


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