# Scarred Lands: Ask the Sage [New and Improved!]



## Nightfall (Jan 16, 2004)

Just a reminder of where we've been: Old Ask the Sage Thread.

Okay folks. I figured since we had a ten page thread, time to start a new one. Mostly because I don't want newbies to feel crowded. Before I begin taking questions, I'd figure I'd get around to reposting that Pr-class list. So here it is again without further ado. 

Relic and Rituals:
Blood Witch: Master of using the arts of Blood Magic, the Blood Witch also taps into his/her titanic heritage, being able to establish a link to the titans
Crypt Lord: There are necromancers and then there are crypt lords. Powerful necromancers that under go many changes until they themselves become one of the powerful intelligent undead out there, liches.
Incarnate: Servants of the Titaness Denev, they are to druids what druids appear to others, strange and mysterious, with ties few can understand. They believe themselves to have been and always will be a part of the eternal Cycle. Their powers of memory enhance their wildshaping as well as spellcasting
Penumbral Lord: One of the few to have mastered shadow magics very well. Arch enemies of the clergy of Drendari, Penumbral Lords also have ties to that most mysterious race, the Slacerians. 
Sea Witch: Able to bond with their ships and help to defend it, Sea Witches are potent seaborn spellcasters. 
Viligant: The elite of the elite. While many serve the Vigils, a Vigilant him/her self is a hardy warrior, able to survive and fight in places most other heroes might end up dead in. 

Hollowfaust:
Animator: Master of animating the dead, Animators also understand the art of creating golems as well. They ability to create undead is second to none.
Mourner: One of those that serve the Chorus of the Banshee, Mourners are dedicated to remembering and honoring the dead. They are also capable of placating troubled souls in Hollowfaust. 
Shade Touched: While some practice the art of necromancy, those born in Hollowfaust some times find other uses. Shade Touched are an elite group of men and women able to channel negative energy to be used in very roguish/steathy ways. Often employed by the Guilds to act as spies and occasional assassin, the Shade Touched are as much feared as respected.
Speaker of the Dead: While the Chorus honors and remembers the dead, those that are members of the Reader of Cracked Bones prefer to communicate with them. Speakers are potent spellcasters that use their abilities to learn from and often for the dead. 
Unfailing: Another branch of those that serve, the Unfailing are an important branch of the city of Hollowfaust. For their ability to harness and use negative energy to become more undead as well as serve as faithful bodyguards, they are both something to be feared on the battlefield and respected in peace.

Mithril:
Mithril Knight: One of the Four Swords, Mithril Knight are the elite of the elite. Serving as guardians and able to channel the holy power of the Mithril Golem, Mithril Knights are fearsome foes and dedicated heroes. Let none stand between them and their fearsome swords of Mithril.

Warren of Ratmen:
Grenadier: Master of hurling objects, most grendiers are specialists in using many potent inhaled/contact poisons. While many are Slitheren, the art had fallen into use by some Vigilants. 
Tail Fighter: While there are numerous combat styles, Tail fighters are capable of turning their tails into even more deadly weapons. Indeed they prove even worse than one merely armed with its teeth and claws. 
Twilight Warden: An elite group of Ratmen in the Mourning Marches, they seek out and destroy those that would try to disrupt their way of life. They are to the other Ratmen in the Marshes what the Vigilants are to Vesh. 

Burok Torn:
Rune Master: Skilled spellcaster, they are taught the art of runes at an early age. Indeed they learn much and often can find ways to leave their runes active even after they are long since gone.
Stone Guardsman: While the art of the dwarven defender is well known, the Stone Guardsman are more focused on using such powers in other ways. Their ability to withstand powerful blows as well as track enemies, make them powerful foes for those that would challenge the might of Burok Torn. 
Iron Guardsman: Much like their brethren, the Iron Guardsman too use the secrets of the dwarven defender to help in protecting the internal security of the city. 
Tattoo Adept: A skill mostly reserved for dark elves, a tatoo adept focuses the power of their tatoo magic to greater levels. 

Secrets and Societies:
Courtesan of Irda: While few can fathom their intentions, most Courtesans are a group of female spies and occasionally troublemakers bent on using their craft of lovemaking and subtle manipulation for their own ends.
Horseman of Vangal: The most feared of Vangal's followers, the Horseman is Vangal's rage incarnate. Experts in using his favored weapons, the Horseman is both a skilled rider and a bloodthirsty savage.
Incarnate (Revised): See R&R 1 folks. 
Silver Knight: A Sword of Corean, the Silver Knight is a dedicated foe of all those creatures that would invade the Scarred Lands. While they are close to celestials, Silver Knights loathe to involve such creatures except in dire needs. A Silver Knight dedicated himself/herself to ridding the Scarred Lands of the influence of demons, elementals and those that summon or use them. 

SLCS: Ghelspad:
Aerial Cavalier: Experts in the art of tactical flight, Aerial Cavaliers are often seen among the Urian elves. Few can match their skill at using their mounts in combat in the sky. 
Brother of the Scarred Hand: A collection of astestics driven by a need to heal, they channel their own energies towards healing others, often by using their own or others in such as way. They are also dedicated followers of the titans, and as such forswear any and all ties to them. 
Forgemaster: An expert in the arts of forging weapons, a Forgemaster is truly a servant of Corean given flesh. While the Iron Knights are skilled at creating weapons and armor, a Forgemaster is capable of turning such skills into even grand ways to serve the Champion. 
Gold Knight: A sword of Corean, these paladins are dedicated healers. Indeed even some clerics of Madriel are in awe of their power. The Gold Knight is indeed a force of healing and hope in times of crisis. 
Iron Knight: A sword of Corean, Iron Knights are dedicated to forging and siegecraft. While seeming stern and tactiurm compared to other orders, few doubt their prowess in battle or at being able to forge mighty weapons and armor in the service of their god. 
Keeper of the Eternal Flames: A sect of clerics, paladins and others, these chosen people follow and create a special flame that ignites hope and destroys evil. A Keeper is as much as champion of Corean and Madriel as he/she is a weapon against the darkness. 
Knight of the Morning Sky: Elite warriors, often drawn from disillusioned paladins, they fight undead and help to protect the Order. In the process they gain powers similar of that to paladins themselves. 
Renewer: A champion of Denev, these druids and rangers dedicate themselves to fighting the taint of titanspawn as well as turning the blasted wastelands of Scarred Lands into something more liveable. Truly fearsome and fearless, especially with their skill at rapier hornsaw blades, A Renewer is a force of change and goodness in the twisted wilds of the Scarred Lands. 

Calastia:
Calastian Battlemage: While many wizards and sorcerers are skilled in the art of combat, Calastian Battlemages are adept at both countering spells, and using their own spells are wider/greater ranges. They have also mastered the ability to negate the arcane heat that plagues other arcane spellcasters, thus allowing them to be able focus on improving spellcasting in armor. (Usually light) 
Dragon Knight: If paladins have a darker half, this could be it. A Dragon knight is an utterly lawful creature devoted to their mounts, the mock dragons. Powerful riders, possibly even equal to that of the Horsemen of Vangal themselves, Dragon Knights are a force on the battlefield akin to dragon fire itself. 
Halfling Stalker: Silent, deadly, swift, these skilled marksmen and experts at shooting from close range are as much a part of the Calastian army as any other. 
Kilharman League Envoy: Envoys are superb spies and masters of connections. They are often used to find anything, figure out who best to blackmail or find the juiciest gossip to their advantage.
Monk of the Sacred Chain: Devoted to "chaining" their bodies, Monks of the Sacred Chain draw on the nature of the Slaver to enhance their natural fighting skill. They use their favored weapon, the spiked chain, as greater tools to this end. 
Thorned Purifier: While most are clerical, Thorned purifiers are mediciants in the service of Chardun. Their powers of persuasion as well as devotion to the Slaver grant them powers to inflict his wrath and serve his will. 

Relics and Rituals II: Lost Lore
Heliann: The snow witches of the Albadian snows, they are as much a ruling body as a coven. Their skill at channeling away the cold and using tatoos make them formidible foes to those that cross them.
High Astrologer: The stars hold all, or so they say. High Astrologers learn various ways to master and harness these powers for themselves, often being able to summon such creatures depending on which star is in accendacy. They are also able to predict the future.
Jordeth: Devoted defenders of the Ganjus, the Jordeth are as much special policing force as devoted to the woods themselves. The Jordeth forge bonds with their "tree brothers" or Treants. In exchange they learn how to better hide themselves and also use the forest itself to become a greater part of it. 
Lady of Serpents: A cult of female assassins, these long nailed witches are soemthing to be feared. They are more skilled than other assassins at the use of powerful posions, often laquering their nails with it. A Lady of Serpents is a foe never to be taken too light. 
Sage of the Phylactric Vault: Specialists in many fields, these wizards with their devotions learn new ways see into the planes, learn oneriomancy as well as forge new disciplines. Sages are mysterious but no one doubts when it comes their disciplinces, they can be as potent as any archmage.
Son of Mirth: A member of the Krewe of Bones, these spellcasters are in charge of using the negative energies in Blood Bayou to help further augment the Krewe and thus the Carnivals might. They are able to become closer to undead and thus serve the will of the Jack of Tears more closely. Masters of the art of bone crafting, the Sons (a misnomer as there are some women that serve them), also use the swamp to keep themselves hidden.
Spirit Walker: While druids learn to harness nature, spirit walkers tap into the more primal parts of Scarn, that of spirits. Some are elemental in nature, others merely ideas. Even so, a spirit walker is a master of using and calling such spirits, powering spells and body in their service. 
(Psionic Pr-classes)
Order of Obsidian: Created by the gods and titans to combat the threats of the Slacerian cults and creatures, these potent yet secretive order works hard to combat these threats. In the process they gain greater powers to combat psionic attacks and psionic creatures used or created by the Slacerians. 
Cultist of the Shade: One of many various cults, this one is a precessor to that of the Penumbral Lords. Indeed this cult was seen as a go between for both the Slacerians and the Penumbral Lords. Their manipulation of shadows as well as their ability to use slacerian powers makes them very deadly foes indeed.
Warped One: Not all seek the power of the Slacerians. Some become infected by the language virus itself, often altering their thinking. Warped Ones are such an example, a group of twisted psions and psychic warriors that in losing their sanity, gain greater powers including being able to drain psionic items and unleash power psychic blasts. 


Hornsaw:
Hornsaw Sentinel: A mad little clan, these rangers and druids forge great bonds with their new animal companions, the Hornsaw Unicorns. Thus they use their animal companions horns as weapons as well as learn to channel their animal's rage for themselves. 
Lillandeli Archer: A sharpshooter in every sense of the word, Lillandeli archers learn to enhance the damage of their arrows as well as increase their ability to use bows. This added to their own spells to increase a bow's ability makes them very deadly foes, but only to those that have tainted the Hornsaw. 

Shelzar:
Shelzarian Knight Fighter: Expert in the art of knife fighting, these guys are a close quarters fighters nightmare. Their skill extends not just in using a knife in hand to hand combat, but also in throwing such blades. A Knife fighter is one bad little man. 

SLCS: Termana
Death Touched: Much like the Unfailing or the Shade Touched, death touched have been touched by negative energies that emnate from the Isle of the Dead. While not actively using this power, they find themselves becoming more resilient to its effects as well as become more undead in the process. Also they often find themselves able to cast necromantic spells but never quite the same as those that actively pratice it.
High Magus: One of the oldest elven spellcasting orders, these experts in blending abjuration and illusion make them very deadly spellcasters indeed. 
One in Black: Like their brethren the Slavers of the Death, the Ones in Black are an order of Charduni devoted to serving him and enslaving in his name. Their abilities to create undead as well as use warscepters mark them as near equals to paladins themselves. 
Sister of the Sun: Devoted female paladins, these Sisters use their skills to not only harm undead but redeem those that have lost their way. While not passive in any sense, they prefer to redeem rather then destroy. Of course some times redemption can lead to destruction...but the Sisters believe the greater good is always served no matter what. 
Tepuje Winddancer: Experts in the use of Tepuje Windgliders, Tepuje Winddancers are [font=Arial,Helvetica]an elite and exclusive corps who are part scout, part messenger and part aerial warrior. [/font]
Viromancer: While termana is home to many diseases and venoms, Viromancers learn how to harness such powers to increase their effectiveness as well as make them much deadlier. 
Weaver of the Spirits: A shamanistic group, Weavers are those devoted to speaking for such spirits as well as weaving illusions to give them form and shape. Using mind altering herbs, they are able to directly communicate and voice the Ushada's will to their tribe. In exchange for this, the spirits grant the weavers the ability to create powerful illusions and greater understanding of the natural world. 

Faithful and the Forsaken:
Constellation Weaver: Using the power of the stars and patterns, these spellcasters create magical items from mundane things. 
Divine Archer: Divine counterpart to Arcane Archer
Ramrider: Charduni that have forged special links with Charduni Battle rams, these warriors thunder into battle with a fevor that's terrifying. 
White Fist: Another charduni sect of divine warriors, these focus on keeping the order and sancity of their race from all outside forces. 

Secrects of the Assathi:
Ancestral Warrior: Much like Totem Warrior, Ancestral Warrior call upon the spirits of those that came before them to help in combat. 
Dragon Warrior: Mystics who channel the power of ancient dragons in combat. 
Locus Master: Masters of the logi, energies the Assathi use, these are able to channel this power at far greater length 
Ornamancer: Master spellcasters who have learned the art of gem magic. 
Paragon Warrior: Master warriors who try to become symbols of their race's might. 
Relic Hunter: Finder of lost artifacts sacred to Assathi. 

I'm doing the player's guide separate.

Wizards, Bards and Sorcerers:
Adept of Flame: A fire-wielding arcanist infused with the power of the defeated titan Thulkas. 
Angel-blooded: A sorcerer that learns to cultivate the celestial blood of his heritage, awakening angelic powers within himself.
Blessed of Mesos: Uber-sorcerers that wield the power that is the legacy of the Sire of Sorcery, including attracting an arcane devourer as a cohort.
Demonologist: Not a servant of fiends, but a master of them. The demonologist is an arcanist who masters the arts of summoning and binding fiends to do his will.
High Chorister: The highest ranks of the Chorus of the Ages, masters of song and memory who eventually come to hold the Memory of Denev.
Japhinian Dynast: The masters of a pirating mafia-esque criminal organization, Japhinian Dynasts bear the legacy of the sorcerers and orc-blooded who were cast out during the Ledean Empire. Now, these half-orc sorcerer pirates draw on the power and fury of the Blood Sea.
Keeper of Epics: A master of a myriad of bardic epics, including the magics that come along with knowledge of such.
Master Cabalist: Those who delve into the occult properties of the True Names of the gods, learning to draw upon the power of the gods to some small degree.
Moonwitch: Shapeshifting witches of madness, nightmares and the moon.
Rage-bringer: A tribal bard who uses his bardic music to inspire rage rather than heroism in his allies.
Shelzari Eroticist: An exotic dancer from the City of Sin. (You've seen her on the forums.)
Slaver of the Dead: A Chardunite necromancer, capable of creating an army of undead over which he is the absolute tyrant.
Voice of Sumara: Strange sorcerers who constantly hear the whispers of the dead of old Sumara, and gain strange knowledge thereby.

Fighters and Barbarians:
Archer of the Steppes: The finest of barbarian horse archers, the archer of the steppes develops not only a unique form of barbarian rage, but also a bond with her mount, allowing the beast to go berserk when she does.
Chain Legionnaire: The slaver-centurions of the Legion of Chain no longer serve any single government. Instead, they put their mastery of the spiked chain and the binding mysteries of their practice up for the highest bidder.
Dancer of Steel: The order of Venirian sword-dancers who eventually became the Legion of Steel, the dancers of steel excel at the use of acrobatics and swordplay.
Knight of the Coventacle: The ancient military arm of the Ledean Coventacle of the Ancients, the knights of the Coventacle are an outcast and hunted order. Nonetheless, they still remember the ancient secrets that allow them the blessings of their titanic patrons.
Knight of the Oak: The elite knights of Vera-tre are spear-wielding wood elves clad in living oaken armor who defend their people and homes from outsiders. What the Jordeh are to druids, the knights of the Oak are to warriors.
Lodge-warrior: The Lodge-warrior is a wood elf who has dedicated his life to defending his peoples' reincarnational monarchy and way of life. To this end, he perfects a fighting style in emulation of one of the Four Eldest Beasts.
Master of the Iron Wind: Exemplaries of the aristocratic Iron Wind Brotherhood, the Master of the Iron Wind can wield the rare and exotic iron war fans of his training with deadly grace and agility. At higher levels of understanding, he even comes to master the strange secrets of the Iron Wind itself.
Mercenaries of the Hawk: Sellsword falconers, the Mercenary of the Hawk strongly bonds with his raptor, making him the perfect scout. It is said that these rare few mercenaries are able to actually see through the eyes of their birds.
Nine Stings Master: A graduate of the arts of the Nine Stings War College, the Nine Stings Master wields a pair of shortswords with grace and precision.
Ragewitch: A barbarian sorceress, the ragewitch is an inheritor of two barbarian legacies - that of innate magical use and overwhelming fury. The ragewitch learns to combine these two ancient talents, becoming a maelstrom of magical rage, smiting the enemies of her people.
Totem Warrior: A savage warrior that learns to channel not just one totem, but comes to serve a multitude of them. The totem warrior gains blessings from each of his patrons, gaining minor shapeshifting talents and the ability to channel totems (via the Totem Feats introduced in this book) for longer.
Warrior of White Fire: A master of the arts of the ancient Legion of White Fire, the Warrior of White Fire is a quarter-staff wielding war-arcanist, skilled in spellcasting in armor as well as channeling his spells through his whirling quarterstaff.
Whitefur: Barbarians from the High Snows of Albadia, whitefurs learn to channel their totem, the huror in ways never before seen by the weak warriors of more civilized areas. The whitefur becomes more immune to the cold as he advances in level, and learns to summon the blizzards of the huror around him in order to vanquish his enemies. 

Clerics and Druids:
Anchorite: A priest of either the gods or the titans that withdraws from the doing of mortals into the wilderness, undergoing great ascetic suffering in order to better pursue enlightenment.
Cultist of the Forge: Heretics found among both the church of Corean and the cultists of Golthagga, the Cult of the Forge teaches its adherents to forge thier souls in the crucible of life, gaining great strength and resilience. They hate the undead fiercely, for the undead are a perversion of life and weaken the temper of the spirit.
Defender of the Faith: Ritualists and great religious leaders found among both clerics and druids, defenders of the faith gain increased ability when casting True Rituals, and learn to draw upon the faith of their followers in order to heighten their own abilities.
High Judicator: The lawgivers and judges of the city of Hedrad, the high judicators are Hedradan clerics who pursue the twin goals of justice and order. The highest of the high judicators are chosen as inquisitors of Hedrada (see the Creature Collection) when they die.
Khetan Phagist: Vicious and unholy cannibal druids, the Khetan phagists are the elite of the druidic theocracy of Khet, gaining great powers from the consumption of the flesh of their enemies.
Initiate of the Ram: Druids who dwell around the fallen city of Amalthea, the Order of the Ram is dedicated to defending and preserving the Amalthean rams and ewes. These druids learn to create the Amalthean helms of legend, and gain many powers and abilities related to their charges.
Oracle of Hedrada: Seers and visionaries, the oracles of Hedrada learn to peer into the heavenly vault of order, seeking the truths of the future.
Pursuivant: Seekers of the taint of titans, pursuivants are clerics who have taken up the calling to hunt down the works of both druids and titan-touched sorcerers, gaining increased resistance to the spells of both, while cultivating the ability to destroy them.
Scourge of Tanil: Fiercely independent, the scourges of Tanil take up bows to defend the defenseless in the name of their goddess. These women form the center of the Wild Hunt Heresy of the Tanilan church.
Seeker on the Wind: Sorcerer-scions and druids of Mesos, the seekers learn to detect the lingering traces of the Sire of Sorcery on the very winds, calling up those powers to aid their own magics or hinder the sorceries of others.
Stormsinger: In the heights of the greatest of thunderstorms can sometimes be heard a high, keening song - this is the song of Lethene, and the stormsinger druids learn this song in order to call up great songs and soar about on its winds.
Totem Caller: A druid with connections to many totems, the totem caller learns to use his wildshaping ability to assume the traits of many of his totems, gaining increased abilities while channeling his totems.

Rangers and Rogues:
Black Thorn Ranger: Member of the Order of the Black Thorn, the Black Thorn Ranger has dedicated his life to fulfilling the aims of Chardun. Something of a black counterpart to Corean's paladins, the Black Thorn Ranger gains many benefits directly from the Tyrant god.
Blood Sea Pirate: Scalliwags and buccaneers who sail the crimson waves of the Blood Sea, the Blood Sea pirate has not only overcome the oft-debilitating, rage-inducing, mutating ichor in his home sea, but has turned them to his benefit.
Bounty Hunter: Masters of grappling and infliction of non-lethal damage, bounty hunters sell their services to the highest bidder. There is no morality inherent in them, however - for every bounty hunter that works to bring criminals to justice, another works as a slaver.
Brother of the Crimson Temple: Kukri-and-scimitar wielding ranger guardians of the Crimson Temple, the site where Mormo fell to divine treachery, the Brotherhood is made up of fanatical madmen who explore the power inherent in them and unlock the ophidian gifts of she whose memory they have sworn to protect.
Trapmaster: Small creators of pit-traps, deadfalls and other jungle guerilla warfare, the trapmasters learn how to craft their traps to take advantage of the weaknesses of their Favored Enemies.
Goreguard: The fat-yet-muscled pit fighters of Fangsfall do more than simply provide bloody entertainment for the masses - they also run subtle and vicious covert operations. Some of this is for simple crime - but others have more devious goals in mind.
Huntsmaster: Elven rangers with wolf allies, the huntsmasters of Vera-tre patrol the edges of the Ganjus, learning the Ways of the Hunt from their lupine companions. But on nights of the full moon, a great rage fills the heart of these warriors, and woe betide the enemies of the elven people. It has been years since the Great Hunt was last called - how long before it is called again?
Master of the Scaled: The masterminds behind the criminal organization that sprung up in the ordered and lawful city of Hedrad, the Masters of the Scaled find that the techniques of both larceny and arcane might that allowed them to survive and prosper in the stringent City of Law more than suffice for achieving underworld dominance in other parts of the world.
Oaken Shadow: Spies and watchers of the elven people, if the Jordeh are the spirits of the Ganjus, then these are its shadow. Oaken shadows learn to use the forest glades that are their home to maximum benefit - when they do not wish to be seen, the forest itself hides them.
Vigilant Arcanist: Wizards and sorcerers of the vigils, the vigilant arcanist turns his magical knowledge towards fulfilling the goals of the Vigils. Woe betide those favored enemies who face his magic, for they find that the vigilant arcanist's bite deeply indeed.
Vigil Stalker: Where the vigilants patrol the wild areas, the enemies of Vesh would be apalled to learn of the existence of the stalkers, who act as master spies against those forces and powers which might threaten Vesh. Let the vigilants be regarded as heroes - the stalkers do the dirty work.

Monks and Paladins:
Acolyte of Justice: Hedradan paladins who roam the less-settled areas of the world, acting as judges, juries and (when necessary) executioners for those frontier areas without solid justice in place. With the ability to detect the truth and enact punishments to criminals found guilty, these guys are stern, hammer-wielding enactors of justice.
Brothers of Steel: An order that includes the Monks of Mithril, the Brothers of Steel serve the Adamantine Church of Corean. Through stern self-discipline, they become weapons against evil and lawlessness. As they increase in level, they gain increased abilities to fight the enemies of their respective Order - be it titanspawn for Mithril Monks or outsiders and elementals for Silver Monks.
Dawn Spear Adepts: Monks with a mastery of the Madrielite Dawn Spear martial art style, these spear-fighters are peace-bringers and healers. They gain the ability to inflict significant nonlethal damage with their signature weapon, and to channel their ki through the light of the sun, transforming grevious wounds into mere bruises.
Exemplar: Arguably the first of the monks in the Scarred Lands, exemplars are mighty ascetics who seek to understand the lessons of the Perfected One, becoming mighty paragons of the union of mind, body and spirit. Such mastery enables them to perform feats that border on the supernatural.
Hearthguardian: The boar-riding paladins of Goran, hearthguardians have taken oaths to protect the chosen of Goran. Whether they do this by defending beseiged Burok Torn, or by wandering among the dwarven folk outside of the home of dwarves, they are distinctive in their mighty boars-head helms.
Initiates of the Forge: Though a Coreanic creed in this age, this order of monks gained their techniques from some of the more esoteric teachings of the cult of Thulkas. These monks shatter their bodies on the anvil of discipline and reforge their very flesh and bones into powerful instruments. 
Knight of Tears: An off-shoot order of the Knights of Silver, the Knights of Tears are based out of Hollowfaust. Dedicated not to vanquishing the ghosts of old Sumara, but to helping them find their final rest, the Knights of Tears are not only able to hear their longing voices, but are protected by the lingering goodwill of those ghosts who they have helped to pass into their final reward.
Knight of the Silver Heart: The Urian elf paladins of Corean, the Knights of the Silver Heart are to Aerial Cavaliers what paladins are to normal knights. Their winged mounts gain a link with their riders unbeknownst to most of the Urian aerial knights.
Mithril Knight: Revised from its first appearance in Mithril: City of the Golem, the Mithril Knight is a leader of men and hero of the people, wielding a glimmering mithril blade forged from the very Mithril Golem itself.
Nightblade: Holy slayers in the service of Belsameth, these monks turn their discipline and dedication to the service of murder. Members of the Cult of the Ancients, as well as other assassin leagues, the nightblades answer only to their own superiors.
Swan Knight: Though there is only one true Swan Knight in all the Scarred Lands at any one time, there are many who uphold her creed and prepare to take up her mantle once she dies or passes into Madriel's paradise. Women of virtue, strength and valor, the Swan Knights hold true to Madriel's promise of protection and healing for the weak, and justice for those who would abuse women and children.
Waverider: Sailor-monks whose time on the seas has resulted in the evolution of their kick-based martial art, the waveriders seek perfection in the glare of the sea's sun, and the rolling of the waves.


And from preview of the Blood Sea:

Seaborn: Chosen of the sea goddess, many of these seaborn fight out in the depth of the Blood Sea, trying to cleanse it of the taint of Kadum.


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## eryndel (Jan 16, 2004)

Sages have a frightening amount of work to do.  That's impressive. 

Werner


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## hong (Jan 16, 2004)

Dear Scarred Lands Sage,

I have heard that laser surgery can do wonders for unsightly scars. Have you tried this?

Helpfully yours,
Unscarred in Uzbekistan


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## Derulbaskul (Jan 16, 2004)

Wow. I hadn't realise how much material had been produced.

_(copies list to steal ideas for Midnight and Dawnforge)_


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## Trickstergod (Jan 16, 2004)

A helpful list, but, two things...



			
				Nightfall said:
			
		

> Courtsean of Irda: While few can fathom their intentions, most Courtseans are a group of female spies and occasionally troublemakers bent on using their craft of lovemaking and subtle manipulation for their own ends.




...the Courtesan's of Idra are not a female group. It's open to both sexes, although most are woman. 

And two, there's a huge amount of misspelled words in the list (three in the quote I used alone). 

Because it's not a Scarred Lands thread until I've thrown in my discriminating (or over-critical) eye.

Otherwise, a good way to kick things off. 

Though come to think of it, a collected list of errata might be nice as well.


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## Nightfall (Jan 16, 2004)

eryndel said:
			
		

> Sages have a frightening amount of work to do. That's impressive.
> 
> Werner



I do my best Werner. Next up. FEATS!   




			
				hong said:
			
		

> Dear Scarred Lands Sage,
> 
> I have heard that laser surgery can do wonders for unsightly scars. Have you tried this?
> 
> ...



I don't like lasers. Besides I don't have scars. Just the rest of the land.   




			
				Derulbaskul said:
			
		

> Wow. I hadn't realise how much material had been produced.
> 
> _(copies list to steal ideas for Midnight and Dawnforge)_



 
Yeah and I haven't even done the feats yet.


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## Nightfall (Jan 16, 2004)

Trickstergod said:
			
		

> A helpful list, but, two things...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Trick,

Sorry you are correct. There is no female only requirements. I will correct my misspellings. (And yes it's never an SL thread unless Enkili's avatar comes to critique me.) 

Errata...we'll see. I still need to do feats.


----------



## diaglo (Jan 16, 2004)

isn't Irda IP for the DL material?


----------



## Nightfall (Jan 16, 2004)

Hong,

No.


----------



## Derulbaskul (Jan 16, 2004)

Trickstergod said:
			
		

> (snip) Though come to think of it, a collected list of errata might be nice as well.




Errata for Scarred Lands?

Wouldn't that be too much information for the ENWorld server to hold?

Nightfall,

Are you really going to summarise the SL feats? That would be cool. Thanks in advance if you do.


----------



## Nightfall (Jan 16, 2004)

Der,

Yes. I am. It will take me a while to check EVERYTHING but I'll have a feat listing for the setting/accessories/adventures along with what's in the player's Guide. This will be long I assure you.

Errata I could link up for some but I will at least post my own little errata for some.


----------



## diaglo (Jan 16, 2004)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> Hong,




Ouch.. you wound me sir.


----------



## Nightfall (Jan 16, 2004)

diaglo said:
			
		

> Ouch.. you wound me sir.



Kind of was intentional.


----------



## Nightfall (Jan 16, 2004)

Creamsteak said:
			
		

> Wish I could close this for you, but I nolonger maintain that power. However, I do have a general sort of opinion question for you:
> 
> I'm changing the guard, switching out the dieties and Denev from the setting and replacing them with the Lords of Evil and Celestial Paragons from the BoVD and BoED respectively. This is because I've always found the Gods in SL very dull and havn't had much fun with them. I'm also replacing the Slarecians with the Illthidkind and having them segregated to the plane of shadow by the gods and titans, because I wanted a more "active" psionic enemy in the world. Something with more open history as well (plus gives me an excuse for some cthulhu goodness).
> 
> ...



Yeah. I think adding the Celestial Paragon is BAD!!!  But otherwise whatever man. Also you could just make some places like the Plaguelands MUCH worse by inflicting MORE disease and stuff.


----------



## Fedifensor (Jan 16, 2004)

The Scarred Lands seems to skimp on the rogue prestige classes.  Almost the only place you can find them is Rangers and Rogues.  Even then, most of the rogue classes are focused on combat capability instead of more subtle methods.


----------



## NarlethDrider (Jan 16, 2004)

In the old "A.t.S." you stated how you applied class levels & templates to narleths to 'help 'em out'----any chance of you posting them here or in the rogue's gallery?


----------



## Nightfall (Jan 16, 2004)

Fedifensor said:
			
		

> The Scarred Lands seems to skimp on the rogue prestige classes. Almost the only place you can find them is Rangers and Rogues. Even then, most of the rogue classes are focused on combat capability instead of more subtle methods.



Well Courtasen of Idra is kind of subtle. Plus there's Lady of Serpents, along with Shade Touched, Halfling Stalker, Khilharman League Envoy, and of course Relic Hunter. I'm also sure that we'll see more in future suppliments.



			
				NarlethDrider said:
			
		

> In the old "A.t.S." you stated how you applied class levels & templates to narleths to 'help 'em out'----any chance of you posting them here or in the rogue's gallery?



Don't worry I'll get to it.


----------



## Nightfall (Jan 17, 2004)

*Feats and one new skill*

I couldn't decide exactly how to sort this folks, so here goes. Product instead of type BUT I will of course use the standard (what kind of feat is) deal. 

R&R1:

[Metamagic] Chain Spell: You can cast spells that arc at secondary targets.
pg 25

[Metamagic] Hide Spell: You cast evocation spells that are invisible and inaudible pg 25 

Ritual Casting: (Con Trained only, Armor Check penalty, Primary Spellcasters only, Cross class for Rangers and Paladins) pg 128

Hollowfaust:

[General] Icy Calm: You are used the seeing some truly frightening things. Thus little can shock or scare you. pg 54 

[General] Dire Threats: You are adept in making some very nasty threats and with your knowledge of death, increase the chances people will do what you say. pg 54

[General] [Fighter] Finishing Strike: You are adept at finishing off opponents in combat quickly. pg 62

[Side note: This feat is also found in Player's Guide to Fighters and Barbarians]

Stopping for now but next post or editing will have more.


----------



## Brennin Magalus (Jan 17, 2004)

Thanks for posting the PrCs from PG: Monks and Paladins.  I am definitely interested.


----------



## Nightfall (Jan 17, 2004)

Brennin Magalus said:
			
		

> Thanks for posting the PrCs from PG: Monks and Paladins. I am definitely interested.



 Glad I could help.


----------



## Brennin Magalus (Jan 17, 2004)

In another thread I noticed one of your PCs (or NPCs) had levels in topaz knight (IIRC).  What is that?

Brennin

PS Do you think you could teach me how to pimp?  My board is as slow as golden molasses.


----------



## Nightfall (Jan 17, 2004)

Brennin Magalus said:
			
		

> In another thread I noticed one of your PCs (or NPCs) had levels in topaz knight (IIRC). What is that?
> 
> Brennin



Topaz Knight is my own creation. It along with Diamond Knight, Ruby Knight, Emerald Knight and Sapphire Knight are a new order, the Knights of the Gems, which I created partly as my Madrielite Paladin wanted a Pr-class because nothing suited him. The other reason was, at time, there weren't a lot of Madrielite specific paladin Pr-classes. So I created my own. Silas is the Topas Knight, a rarity much like seeing the first Silver Knight, or some other member of Corean's swords for the first time. The Topaz knight focuses on trying to forge bonds through diplomacy while also fighting undead. Thus they are natural leaders and also deadly foes to undead. Other than that, there's not much else to them. 



			
				Brennin Magalus said:
			
		

> PS Do you think you could teach me how to pimp? My board is as slow as golden molasses.



Simple. 
TYPE 


ALL 


THE 


TIME.


----------



## Nightfall (Jan 19, 2004)

Anyone else have questions?

(Sorry I got a copy of Hordes of Underdark folks...needed to slake my killing thirst with righteous smiting. So far though, it's only barely helping.   )


----------



## Torillan (Jan 19, 2004)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> Anyone else have questions?
> 
> (Sorry I got a copy of Hordes of Underdark folks...needed to slake my killing thirst with righteous smiting. So far though, it's only barely helping.   )




[Raises hand]  Here, professor.  Speaking of Underdark, how about some tips on integrating an Underdark realm into the Scarred Lands?  I have the Burok Torn book, but I never really liked the treatment of the Dark Elves.  Seemed too limiting to me.  Elements of it are good, but it left me wanting more.  I want to stay away from the seemingly huge Underdark of the Forgotten Realms, although I'd like to have the Underdark reach at least between Ghelspad and Termana.  Essentially, I'm looking to make the dark elves a more potent enemy of the surface.


----------



## Nightfall (Jan 19, 2004)

Tor,

Well understand not everything in the Underdark even in FR revolved around dark elves. I mean there were/are colonies of Beholders, Illithids/Mind Flayers to name a few. But as for a large Underscarn (term I've come to use) consider the fact that a lot of change occurred, under, in, over, and around Scarn. So it makes for having a large living system like FR a little less likely. That being said there's no reason you could say have a large underdwelling that starts some 5 miles from the tip of the Fangsfall Pennisula to say the Gray Isle. Such a dwelling would easily dwarf most of the Faerunian Underdark. (I believe it easily would be over 4000 miles long.) However I think that being said, a LOT of Slacerian ruins would be there, possibly some leaks from the Blood Sea...I think you get my drift. The Dark elves are dying people, Tor. They can barely hold on to the god they have. So for now I don't see them straying to new gods any more than the forsaken elves would leave That Which Abides. However if you want more dark elves, be my guest. But between what already lies above the surface and the fact most of the Underscarns were owned by Slacerians...doesn't make seem likely they could carve out the niches like their brethren else where...


----------



## Nightfall (Jan 20, 2004)

Bumping this along...

Tor, hey if you want a mega underdark, be my guest. Just saying with all the changes, the sesimetic activity and what not, it's not a realistic thing to consider.


----------



## Acid_crash (Jan 20, 2004)

Hey Sage Nightfall, Master of the Scarred Lands Universe and Ruler of all that pertains to Scarred Lands, How's it going?

There's a good question for ya.  

Thanks for all the information.  How do you find all the time to write all this for us and play the game and have a day job all at the same time???


----------



## twobadcats (Jan 20, 2004)

Acid_crash said:
			
		

> Hey Sage Nightfall, Master of the Scarred Lands Universe and Ruler of all that pertains to Scarred Lands, How's it going?
> 
> There's a good question for ya.
> 
> Thanks for all the information.  How do you find all the time to write all this for us and play the game and have a day job all at the same time???




Here's an easy question (I hope).

What book(s) do I need to kick off a Scarred Lands campaign. Some friends of mine have two of the creature collection books, plus Relics and Rituals, but these don't seem to have a lot of detail on the world. However, what I've seen (Ratmen! Wierd undead!) makes me think it'd be an interesting setting for my D&D group to explore. What's the book I'm looking for to provide more info?


----------



## Adlon (Jan 20, 2004)

twobadcats said:
			
		

> Here's an easy question (I hope).
> 
> What book(s) do I need to kick off a Scarred Lands campaign. Some friends of mine have two of the creature collection books, plus Relics and Rituals, but these don't seem to have a lot of detail on the world. However, what I've seen (Ratmen! Wierd undead!) makes me think it'd be an interesting setting for my D&D group to explore. What's the book I'm looking for to provide more info?




From the start you have, I'd suggest:

Scarred Lands Gazeteer: Ghelspad
The SLCS: Ghelspad hardcover
Divine & Defeated

Those 3 will give you a good start.


----------



## Nightfall (Jan 20, 2004)

Acid_crash said:
			
		

> Hey Sage Nightfall, Master of the Scarred Lands Universe and Ruler of all that pertains to Scarred Lands, How's it going?
> 
> There's a good question for ya.
> 
> Thanks for all the information. How do you find all the time to write all this for us and play the game and have a day job all at the same time???



Well you got two out of three.  I don't have a job. I don't have much in the way of a social life (except on the occasional weekend). Nor do have many other hobbies. So this is my life. 




			
				twobadcats said:
			
		

> Here's an easy question (I hope).
> 
> What book(s) do I need to kick off a Scarred Lands campaign. Some friends of mine have two of the creature collection books, plus Relics and Rituals, but these don't seem to have a lot of detail on the world. However, what I've seen (Ratmen! Wierd undead!) makes me think it'd be an interesting setting for my D&D group to explore. What's the book I'm looking for to provide more info?



I'd pretty much side with Adlon on this. The CC books are great (provided you get CC Revised, not CC 1. CC 2 is still useful even in 3.5), but those three cover the landscape pretty well. Also if you want more insight into some intergral stuff check out Wise and the Wicked. (A who's who of some of the more interesting and well known NPCs through out the Scarred Lands. Well Ghelspad at least.) That along with Secrets and Societies do well to cover some of the more interesting aspects of Ghelspad. (Plus you'll get 3/4ths of the Swords of Corean Pr-classes in doing so.)


----------



## Bagpuss (Jan 20, 2004)

Is there a megaplot in Scarred Lands? Or is it pretty static as a setting and if there is a megaplot which products is this evident in?


----------



## Nightfall (Jan 20, 2004)

Bagpuss said:
			
		

> Is there a megaplot in Scarred Lands? Or is it pretty static as a setting and if there is a megaplot which products is this evident in?



Well there is the whole "That Which Abides, is He REALLY dead now?" controversy. Most of the metaplot/megaplot at the moment is just some slight changes (the Calastian advances moves and changes from each perspective, maybe some new details about items of note, such as assassination attempts, etc). So far though I wouldn't say the world is static. Just nothing mega happening....other than That Which Abides coming back to life. And you can thank Dead God trilogy for that. Now to cover that one (and please understand there is some debate shaping up over this in some quarters), one has to have read the entire series. I've only read the first 2. But that being said, the Faithful and the Forsaken covers this little detail of Jandaveos' ressurrection, (That Which Abides, the Forsaken Elf's god.) and the aftermath quite well. Now Trick will probably come here and blast the book again, but we'll see.


----------



## Trickstergod (Jan 20, 2004)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> But that being said, the Faithful and the Forsaken covers this little detail of Jandaveos' ressurrection, (That Which Abides, the Forsaken Elf's god.) and the aftermath quite well. Now Trick will probably come here and blast the book again, but we'll see.




Oh, it's possible. In fact, I'd say it's exceptionally likely. But at the moment, it isn't really kosher to the conversation, beyond answering to this comment here. 

Suffice to say, though, any conversation that starts into the Faithful and the Forsaken will likely result in my attempting to destroy the book with a great fervor, and any future Scarred Lands products that reference it will also likely receive a similar treatment from me. 

But...so it goes.


----------



## Nightfall (Jan 20, 2004)

Thanks for the input Trick as always. (Your chaos to my lawfulness is always interesting to see.) Now Trick any comments about megaplot/metaplotting?


----------



## Trickstergod (Jan 20, 2004)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> Thanks for the input Trick as always. (Your chaos to my lawfulness is always interesting to see.) Now Trick any comments about megaplot/metaplotting?




Better done through adventures than novels (try to put PC's at the center of it). 

Sometimes, it's just better never done at all, at least when it makes drastic changes (particularly ones that negate well set-up plot hooks or for all intents and purposes cause the extinction of RPG setting-specific races). Considering adventures don't sell well, perhaps this is just the best way to normally go. 

Keep in mind that we're talking RPG's here. While I don't mind a setting evolving to some degree, and a good setting should have a good story (as campaign settings are really the only places you'll find metaplot in an RPG), I want to play in the setting, not read about it. One need only look to Dragonlance to see where metaplot gets a campaign setting; I can't say I've met many fans of the Fifth Age. 

Metaplot also ruins the utility of later RPG products - those not following the storyline will be left out, and eventually, interest will wane as the games actually being played start to look less and less like the campaign setting being written. For my part, it is an unlikely thing on my part to purchase any Scarred Lands product that references the Faithful and the Forsaken or the Dead Gods trilogy. 

Metaplot isn't always so bad - for those familiar with Werewolf: the Apocalypse, I believe Rage Across the Heavens is a good example of how RPG's should handle metaplot. It introduces an NPC who is an exception to everything already established within the game, who might very well change the world for existing. But it's done in such a way that the effect won't likely be felt or known for another twenty years, and being just one individual, the NPC's birth offers no drastic changes. While it's been a while since I've really got my groove on with the World of Darkness, I recall Ethan Skemp (developer for Werewolf: the Apocalpyse, unless my brain's gone to mush) saying that one should be as unintrusive as possible to on-going campaigns within future gaming products. 
Somewhat along the same lines here, I'll also say the more optional metaplot is, the better (though this can become problematic depending on how far-ranging and drastic a change is made). 

Furthermore, I do believe there's a point where a game setting begins to stagnate and could do with a change. Until that point is reached, however, it shouldn't be done. Or done sparingly, at least. 

Anyway, there's my thoughts. Hopefully somewhat cognizant, seeing as how my dog is an obnoxious twit whose barking woke me up after three hours of sleep that came after a long night of gaming followed up by about three hours of singing and then breakfast. Stupid dog.


----------



## Nightfall (Jan 20, 2004)

Uhm yeah. Thanks Trick. Really didn't mean "What do you think of Metaplotting/Megaplots." I meant "Is there one in the Scarred Lands? And mind outlining it." 

Just you know, thought we'd see if you and I are on the right page on that level...

I am sorry I wasn't clear before hand on that note. That was my bad.


----------



## Trickstergod (Jan 20, 2004)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> Uhm yeah. Thanks Trick. Really didn't mean "What do you think of Metaplotting/Megaplots." I meant "Is there one in the Scarred Lands? And mind outlining it."
> 
> Just you know, thought we'd see if you and I are on the right page on that level...
> 
> I am sorry I wasn't clear before hand on that note. That was my bad.




Fair enough. 

Anyway, do I think there's one in the Scarred Lands? 

I'm not so sure right now, actually. Other than the Dead Gods trilogy, I haven't seen much of a story arc going on in the setting. Plenty of story hooks one could go with, no problem. But they seem to be set up and detailed, then let be. Explanations, history, secrets...all that's come out, but I don't recall seeing much of it necessarily resolved. 

However, the Scarred Lands is produced by Sword and Sorcery Studios, who are linked to White Wolf, who made the World of Darkness, which had plenty of metaplot, and many of the writers from one write for the other. So I certainly wouldn't be surprised by any metaplot. I wish I could recall the comment, but I swear I heard something that hinted at a possible underlying plot and story arc in the setting. 

Then again, as has been said before, there's a decent amount of fan input that's gone into the setting. When there's an element like that, it means that the setting will be fairly loose and open, which also means to my mind that it has the potential to go just about anywhere - meaning something planned out like a metaplot isn't necessarily likely. Which reminds me of the comment I was thinking of! Joe had mentioned that the Scarred Lands, while it has certainly added things in which weren't initially planned for it, and become a fairly organic thing, it isn't just completely a hodge-podge setting that's being produced with no forethought. Or something like that. Which doesn't necessarily mean metaplot. 

Ahhh...lessee...if the Scarred Lands does have a metaplot, however, I'm tempted to say it will eventually lead up to the Divine Truce being broken in some way, in one way or another, with at least one titan-resurrection somewhere along the way - likely someone such as Gulaben or Lethene, who are arguably the easiest to free, being that they're really only imprisoned, as opposed to imprisoned _and_ chopped up into teeny little bits. Perhaps this is just my bias showing through, but I'd say Enkili lied about Mesos taking his power, and he was either in cahoots with Hedrada or Mesos. Neither of which anyone would suspect, Hedrada being Enkili's polar opposite, and being that Enkili's lie ended up in Mesos destruction. If not that, or possibly on top of that, then I'd say Vangal's act of mercy towards Lethene was so that he would have a titan he could sic on the world at a later date, using the ensuing chaos to wreak bloody carnage upon the world. 

That's all a bit general, I know, but I hardly have an insider information into the matter. Hopefully, if anymore metaplot is done, it's done in such a way as to not destroy the integrity of parts of the setting.


----------



## Taelorn76 (Jan 20, 2004)

NightFall,

I wanted to ask your permission to post a HTML formatted version of the PrCs list you put up on my site so it could be easily viewed.

Also would I need S&S permission for that? I am not claiming the material as mine just posting the info so I don't believe I would need. But better to be safe then sorry.

edit:
Ohh and of course all credit for the list would go to you.


----------



## Torillan (Jan 20, 2004)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> Tor,
> 
> Well understand not everything in the Underdark even in FR revolved around dark elves. I mean there were/are colonies of Beholders, Illithids/Mind Flayers to name a few. But as for a large Underscarn (term I've come to use) consider the fact that a lot of change occurred, under, in, over, and around Scarn. So it makes for having a large living system like FR a little less likely. That being said there's no reason you could say have a large underdwelling that starts some 5 miles from the tip of the Fangsfall Pennisula to say the Gray Isle. Such a dwelling would easily dwarf most of the Faerunian Underdark. (I believe it easily would be over 4000 miles long.) However I think that being said, a LOT of Slacerian ruins would be there, possibly some leaks from the Blood Sea...I think you get my drift. The Dark elves are dying people, Tor. They can barely hold on to the god they have. So for now I don't see them straying to new gods any more than the forsaken elves would leave That Which Abides. However if you want more dark elves, be my guest. But between what already lies above the surface and the fact most of the Underscarns were owned by Slacerians...doesn't make seem likely they could carve out the niches like their brethren else where...




In hindsight, I guess my question was poorly worded.  I do realize that the Underdark of FR encompassed many species, but Dark Elves seemed to play a very prominent role.  I did go back and re-read the BT sourcebook, and I can see how problematic changing it can be (hindsight, always 20/20!!).  Thanks for setting me straight [bows reverently].


----------



## Nightfall (Jan 20, 2004)

Taelorn,

Firstly I'm reasonable sure the names are useable in the sense they are OGC. The actual class FEATURES I believe are not. Secondly, you have my permission to do. Understand though this list is only as exhaustive as to Blood Sea, which while out now I don't have access to. That means that I can only say Seaborn is probably one of say an unknown number of Pr-classes. There could be more. I can't say with accuracy exact numbers. But I will update that when I get a chance to look over Blood Sea. Same is true for Echoes of the Past along with Edge of Infinity. But if you want what I have now, be my guest. Thirdly I don't believe you need S&SS permission for a list like this.


Trick,

When it comes to Enkili I'm 100% you're biased towards him. So its all good. I do think you raise a point about some time of another Divine War coming. If only because eventually ONE of the Titans will be restored or become active again. (I still favor Mormo or Mesos since they had the most power AND have the most active adherants. But that's me showing my bias I suppose.) Whether this will become a metaplot or just maybe a way to hearld in D&D 4.0 is hard to say. (I favor the latter if only because unlike Time of Troubles, the changes caused by Divine War/Titanswar are often far more serious since we have divine factions fighting than just some overgod's whim.)

Tor,

Not a problem man. I don't mean to dash your hopes of increasing the Dark Elves power. But realistically they facing the same problems as the forsaken elves, just on a less drastic scale. Uhm sort of. I mean you could easily have some way to have Nalthalos return to his original state (options on how are up to you), and thus increase the dark elves/drendali's standing. But even so, I don't necessarily see them taking over too much. Even with diminished power of Charduni, the dark elves aren't nearly as industrious as these little guys. But that's my opinion of course.


----------



## Trickstergod (Jan 20, 2004)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> Trick,
> 
> When it comes to Enkili I'm 100% you're biased towards him. So its all good. I do think you raise a point about some time of another Divine War coming. If only because eventually ONE of the Titans will be restored or become active again. (I still favor Mormo or Mesos since they had the most power AND have the most active adherants. But that's me showing my bias I suppose.) Whether this will become a metaplot or just maybe a way to hearld in D&D 4.0 is hard to say. (I favor the latter if only because unlike Time of Troubles, the changes caused by Divine War/Titanswar are often far more serious since we have divine factions fighting than just some overgod's whim.)




Enkili lying about the thing with Mesos just seems like the most reasonable answer; I don't think it was an accident that the trickster god was the one who set off the final straw in the gods declaring war on the titans. Also keep in mind that Joe did hint that may have been the case. I also believe Hedrada was far too ready to believe Enkili, despite common sense saying the gods should have been a bit more suspicious about him. My belief that Enkili lied about the incident with Mesos was only strengthed by the Player's Guide to Clerics and Druids, due to Hedrada's prophecy that, were the gods not to stop the titans, the titans would destroy the world. After reading that, I decided Hedrada approached Enkili with this knowledge, and asked for Enkili to do what Hedrada was incapable of doing (to trick the gods into going to war on the titans, in such a way that all would agree to it). I doubt the gods would have gone to war with the titans just because Hedrada said he had this vision, so an event had to happen that would galvanize all the gods to action. Enkili did that, and because no one would likely really ever believe Enkili and Hedrada would work together (and Hedrada wasn't worried about the other gods believing Enkili if Enkili said Hedrada had approached him for help), no one's really suspected too much. 

Furthermore, while on this part I think this is more just my own take on things, I think as a matter of universal balance, Hedrada's granted with the ability to see the future, and in return, cannot change it. That power lies with Enkili, as the Scarred Lands agent of chaos and change - thus Hedrada would have needed Enkili's help to avert the fate of Scarn being destroyed by the titans. 

In regards to the titans becoming active again....hmm.

I seriously doubt Mesos will be coming back - I'll agree that of all the titans, he's the only one constantly growing closer and closer to returning, but I think the way he's going about it is too slow, and furthermore, that the gods would likely catch on before he became too much of a threat. While I think he may have knew about his destruction beforehand (and possibly worked with Enkili so that Mesos could manipulate the gods into getting rid of the other titans, so he could keep Scarn constantly under the dominion of his epoch), I believe his return will be a slow thing. 

As for Mormo, well, that may be possible. I could see something happening with Geleeda's Grove, Geleeda, and Mormo's womb, for example.

But...eh. I might like to see some of those ideas explored a bit, but I've already given my opinion on metaplot.


----------



## BiggusGeekus (Jan 20, 2004)

Dear Sage,

I finally got around to picking up _SLCS: Ghelspad_, but what did my crestfallen eyes did see, but an utter lack of the book on the shelves of my FLGS.

Woe.

Why did this happen?  Why must I be subjected to such pain and loss?  WHY ME, NIGHTFALL?  WHY ME!?!?


----------



## Zelda Themelin (Jan 21, 2004)

I hope, if there is going to be more metaplots in Scarn, they are about mortal wars and maybe something new, instead of slight and severe alterings of information in earlier products disguised as 'truth'.

I didn't like the whole 'let's bring high elves back'-plot-line, form numerious reasons. For example, though short story came up quite interesting (if I don't mention Drandari - Belsameth realitionship, which didn't feel right to me), but novels I found quite boring. Perhaps, bacause none of the whiny main-characters, or poor screen time getting enemies managed to raise my intrests to their fates.

It's also quite apperant, that not all writers have read through all the earlier material with carefulness, and all kind ol nasty little infomation bugs have crawled along with their friend, the features.

Also, in-character stories, sometimes feel like excuse to change 'truths' of earlier ones. Oh, and the brainwashing seemes to work too. 

Metaplots can decide too much for us too. Suggestions and plot ideas work better IMO, than just go recurrecting a titan etc. If they do resurrect anyone, it should be Mormo. Makes a good bad guy too, or Kadum. Mesos and some of the others are too complicated.

Besides, we've gone through return of ancient powers plots in our campaings more than once. I want to read about something else from those books. Also, I doubt in light of last resurrection, anything offically pulled off would come out perhaps little too lame to suit my imagination. They are proven to write well enough those shady suggestions, and should stay with that art, if I'd pick.

Though, it would be interesting to see what they would come up with. Well, can't really decide, need to make my leave before I start countering myself.

Ah, but despite my misgivings, I get each and every one of those books. I love to collect.  Oh, and sorry for my lack of english skill.


----------



## Nightfall (Jan 21, 2004)

BiggusGeekus said:
			
		

> Dear Sage...
> Why did this happen? Why must I be subjected to such pain and loss? WHY ME, NIGHTFALL? WHY ME!?!?



Cause Enkili likes to torment you. I know he does with me. (See Trick for details.   )

Trick,

Yes I'm well aware of your stance my friend. However I don't necessarily believe Mesos would allow to be detected. Perhaps, due to his innate power as sorcery, he managed to cloak himself from detection. Also while it would be within Mesos' character to betray, I don't necessarily believe he'd care THAT much to see his Epoch last longer. It ends when it ends. None of the titans can change that. But does beg the question...maybe DENEV wanted hers to last longer.  But back to Mesos, I think he'll hide out from the sight of the gods long enough to power himself back up and then come all out. Mormo...well I think you and I outlined the basic only but there are others. The Blood Crone, perhaps the Druids of Khirdet. Perhaps even more unholy, a composite Mormo with Chern's aspects. Even so, I still favor Mesos...mostly because he's like raw magical power. And that to me is what sorcery is all about. Yes Joe hinted that being possible or likely. But even so it might just be more Enkili being Enkili. Also if you ask me the TRUE agent of change isn't Enkili. It's Vangal. He's raw destruction incarnate. Name me one thing or creature Enkili has personally destroyed. Then look at Vangal's record. I think the numbers alone speak for themselves. So yeah while Enkili is pretty raw chaos, Vangal I feel is closer to that whole Moorcockian view of Law versus Chaos. Maybe a little cruder I'll grant you, but still. 

Zelda,

Raising up Kadum is a good idea...in theory. However having a large hole in one chest DOES tend to make for a less than stellar return. Mormo I favor cause...well it's Mormo!   But don't worry about your English. It's fine. I think you get your point across fine. That being said, I do think that regarding ancient powers, I don't foresee a return of the Slacerians. (At least I HOPE not. God knows they caused enough damage the last time around.) The stories/novels I'll agree have been a little weak, but maybe someone else can handle it. Regarding mortal wars, well depends on which places are at war. Sure the Calastian warmachine is on the march, but I'm not sure they can maintain the foresight due to a lot of other factors coming into play. Between the Queen's "secret" and the obvious plays by Duke Travik, Virduk is going to have a hard time keeping things completely under his thumb. Plus there's always Anteas. The man shouldn't be counted out of anything. All that adds up to some voliate mixes when you think about it. The other continents I doubt will be having much in the way of war. (Sure a few human nations and the elves/charduni but it's pretty minor at the moment.) In any case those are my thought. 

Okay people I take questions seriously here, so ask em!


----------



## Darrin Drader (Jan 21, 2004)

Dear sage,

I sometimes get an itch at times when it would be very inappropriate to scratch it. Yet, at the same time, if I don't scratch, it will just become more and more uncomfortable, causing me to lose my concentration. Do you have any advice on an appropriate way to get some relief?

Aside from that, what's up with Termana? I'm thinking about buying it so I can stay up to date. Is it really worth it, or should I just stick with the tried and proven FR? Drizzt really is a cool dark elf, you know.


----------



## Nightfall (Jan 21, 2004)

Whisperfoot said:
			
		

> Dear sage,
> 
> I sometimes get an itch at times when it would be very inappropriate to scratch it. Yet, at the same time, if I don't scratch, it will just become more and more uncomfortable, causing me to lose my concentration. Do you have any advice on an appropriate way to get some relief?
> 
> Aside from that, what's up with Termana? I'm thinking about buying it so I can stay up to date. Is it really worth it, or should I just stick with the tried and proven FR? Drizzt really is a cool dark elf, you know.



Darrin,

I'm not a medic. I don't heal people. I just know stuff. If you want herbalism advice try my cousin "Mad Witch Doctor Dabby" down the street. 

SLCS: Termana is a GRAND book. (Okay might be exaggrating a little but still!). With a completely new twist to everything you thought you knew about the Scarred Lands, along with a new religion and even new feats as well. That's on top of the two biggest evil around, the Jack of Tears and the Ghoul King. FR is okay but vastly overthought on some levels. Drizzt wouldn't last five seconds against two battle ready Assathi just using longsword kurkis.


----------



## Trickstergod (Jan 21, 2004)

BiggusGeekus said:
			
		

> Why did this happen?  Why must I be subjected to such pain and loss?  WHY ME, NIGHTFALL?  WHY ME!?!?




Don't look at me. 

I only strike out at the proud or foolish, though I do have a penchant for pointing out mistakes.


----------



## Trickstergod (Jan 21, 2004)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> Trick,
> 
> ...I don't necessarily believe Mesos would allow to be detected. Perhaps, due to his innate power as sorcery, he managed to cloak himself from detection. Also while it would be within Mesos' character to betray, I don't necessarily believe he'd care THAT much to see his Epoch last longer. It ends when it ends. None of the titans can change that. But does beg the question...maybe DENEV wanted hers to last longer.  But back to Mesos, I think he'll hide out from the sight of the gods long enough to power himself back up and then come all out. Mormo...well I think you and I outlined the basic only but there are others.
> 
> ...




Interesting you point out Kadum having a problem being brought back, despite the fact that he's far less messed up than either Mormo or Mesos. Who's the one being biased here? 

And of course Mesos isn't going to want to be discovered. But he doesn't embody stealth - that honor goes to Hrinruuk more than anyone else. It's not a matter of allowing the god's to detect him; if they could destroy him, then he's not so omnipotent to be beyond detection. As for the epoch's, titans being the primal beings they are, dominance and submission seems an almost integral part of their being. It's in their nature to try to be top of the heap. I also go more with the Ushadan look at things - the titans could care less about the natural order, and the epochs weren't about keeping the universe in order, but instead, a titan claiming power for itself and holding onto it as long as possible. 

All told, though, there's a difference between what one would like to see, and what makes sense. In the case of Mesos, I care little, and don't see his return a likely thing, either. Of all the titans other than Golthain, he was the most thoroughly destroyed, and not to mention, the one the gods would be the most wary of returning. I grant his return is a likely thing, but not a quick one. 

Oh, and one creature or thing Enkili destroyed? How about the Hundred Handed Ones? Who he defeated, then changed into the cloud-like celestians. Not to mention, as you said - Vangal, crude. Murder does not an agent of change make.


----------



## Nightfall (Jan 21, 2004)

Trickstergod said:
			
		

> Interesting you point out Kadum having a problem being brought back, despite the fact that he's far less messed up than either Mormo or Mesos. Who's the one being biased here?




Me of course! But I don't want the Blood Sea to lose its greatest feature. Now if it comes down to a Kaiju showdown, Kadum versus the Mithril Golem I'd love to see.  



			
				Trickstergod said:
			
		

> And of course Mesos isn't going to want to be discovered. But he doesn't embody stealth - that honor goes to Hrinruuk more than anyone else. It's not a matter of allowing the god's to detect him; if they could destroy him, then he's not so omnipotent to be beyond detection. As for the epoch's, titans being the primal beings they are, dominance and submission seems an almost integral part of their being. It's in their nature to try to be top of the heap. I also go more with the Ushadan look at things - the titans could care less about the natural order, and the epochs weren't about keeping the universe in order, but instead, a titan claiming power for itself and holding onto it as long as possible.
> 
> All told, though, there's a difference between what one would like to see, and what makes sense. In the case of Mesos, I care little, and don't see his return a likely thing, either. Of all the titans other than Golthain, he was the most thoroughly destroyed, and not to mention, the one the gods would be the most wary of returning. I grant his return is a likely thing, but not a quick one.



Understood Trick. I guess I just favor him because he's not a god and isn't a gateway. He's just raw power and egotistical being that enjoys doing things his way. So he reminds me of a less crazy but no less ruthless Halaster. He was the only FR archmage I ever liked. 



			
				Trickstergod said:
			
		

> Oh, and one creature or thing Enkili destroyed? How about the Hundred Handed Ones? Who he defeated, then changed into the cloud-like celestians. Not to mention, as you said - Vangal, crude. Murder does not an agent of change make.



No but if you have genicidical indicents, the changes of a race ever affecting history or causing change is remote.  But thanks for the reminder. (I was referring to Titanslaying, but that's still a good point on him defeating a titanspawn race.) 

One further thing, you also have a penchent for getting under my skin like I do yours.  But that's what makes our relationship far from dull.


----------



## NarlethDrider (Jan 22, 2004)

_*chitter**scree*_ a narleth bump _*chitter**scree*_


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## Nightfall (Jan 22, 2004)

NarlethDrider said:
			
		

> _*chitter**scree*_ a narleth bump _*chitter**scree*_



I welcome such bumps! Btw ND, I haven't forgotten. Just haven't had time to post them. Sort of.


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## Taelorn76 (Jan 22, 2004)

Here is a link to the list Nighfall compiled on PrCs. Mind you it is very barebones. I just formatted it a little to make it easier to read.

 PrC list


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## Nightfall (Jan 22, 2004)

Thanks for the update Taelorn. I do appreciate it.


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## Zelda Themelin (Jan 22, 2004)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> Thanks for the update Taelorn. I do appreciate it.




I thank too, both of you.

Now if someone would gather feats the same way, nothing fancy, just basic list, with books with page numbers, maybe requiments needed to have that feat too.

So, Nighty, you know for sure or not that I can have the ignan template from planar book (when if far future ever that will be published)?

Oh, and does anyone got Blood Sea yet. I got it today. Haven't had time to read through it yet, however.



Nightfall, about our earlier discussion. Easier titants to resurrect are Kadum and Gulaben. Kadum is 'just' chained and would need to his heart restored to him. Gulaben would simple be found and freed. Lethene has left to too far realms simple to be called back, and not sure she would wish to return for long eons to come, if if she were called. Thulkas would probably be more easy to summon from sun, but restoring his form would be quite a task.

Denev getting completely healed would be quite a task too.

Mesos, Mormo, not easy. Despite the amount of talk going around Mormo's active servents, or some remarks made on nature of arcane magic and existing things like Arcane devourers, those too are quite beyond normal help.
DM's Deux Ex Machina kind of thing would be needed there. There is no direct possibility of events there.

With Kadum is something simple, like get his heart back and something to break the chains. Then Kadum just goes to rampage to restore his lost vitality or something. Unlikely to happen (gods would probably take notice, which is the real hard another part here). 

Gulaben would be much simpler. Though I am sure the binding is strong, but real problem would be finding the place. No wonder she was wanted to be forgetten. Some clever bastard would probably come with the way. And getting something like Gulaben caught again would be quite hard for gods. Slaughtering weakened Kadum would not, unless other issues were preventing that.

But anything this epic a plotline is always kind of unique idea for most dm:s who wish to go for those. That's why I don't want sword and sorcery studio getting some crappy novel published and trying to shove it's logic into our throats.
we are better served with ideas.


----------



## Ruined (Jan 22, 2004)

Hey Zelda, my campaign is based around the attempted resurrection of Gulaben. The Story Hour is slow-going, but if you were interested I could send you some of the salient details.

Nightfall, looking for a suggestion.  I have a Monk/Sorceror in the group, one of the newer players. I've got the PC worked into the campaign with good reasons to travel with the party and get caught up in the metaplot. But I always like to develop side plots for each PC, and for some reason I'm drawing a blank. I want to touch upon the titanic origins behind most Sorcerous powers.

For reference, the character lived in Mullis Town as a youth. When her sorcerous powers first appeared, she chose to flee from her home. She eventually ended up with a travelling monk as her mentor. Made her way out to Quelsk, got embroiled in plots, etc. I'm looking for subplots, but nothing is jumping out at me.  The group will be travelling closer to her home shortly, so that opens up some options.  Any thoughts?


----------



## Ruined (Jan 22, 2004)

Zelda Themelin said:
			
		

> Oh, and does anyone got Blood Sea yet. I got it today. Haven't had time to read through it yet, however.




Ooh, I missed this part of your post!  And my PCs are heading off on the Blood Sea tonight, believe it or not. Any creepy good encounters worth mentioning? I was looking to go with an abandoned ship + blood barnacles + underwater blood zombies.  But I can always replace that if I heard of something truly cool.  =)


----------



## Ruined (Jan 22, 2004)

bah, doublepost


----------



## Zelda Themelin (Jan 22, 2004)

Ruined said:
			
		

> Hey Zelda, my campaign is based around the attempted resurrection of Gulaben. The Story Hour is slow-going, but if you were interested I could send you some of the salient details.
> QUOTE]
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Zelda Themelin (Jan 22, 2004)

Ruined said:
			
		

> Ooh, I missed this part of your post!  And my PCs are heading off on the Blood Sea tonight, believe it or not. Any creepy good encounters worth mentioning? I was looking to go with an abandoned ship + blood barnacles + underwater blood zombies.  But I can always replace that if I heard of something truly cool.  =)




Mmh, there is a lot of new stuff here too me. Some new locales too (islands), that I haven't read yet. I doubt in time for your session.

Anyway, new monsters:

There are

Blood-tainted (sort of mutant template, new twists to old monsters)
Coral Host (mutanted victims of nasty enslaving coral reefs)
Coralline Skeleton
Gore Vampire
Gore Lich
Cadaver Bloom
Ghost Crab
Fathom Devil
Rot Golem
Rust Golem
Wooden Helmsman

New "secret club", The Heartseekers of Kadum, apperantly my idea acceptable material now. Hehee 

Nothing that immediatly strikes my fancy, except for blood-tainted.
If some sounds interesting I can tell more.


New locales, hazards and encounter tables for different parts of sea.
Couple of spells and prestige classes. Of those The Beastmaker is cool for first four levels, then it kind of gets too boring to stay at. It's for those who want to make/summon their own monsters.


----------



## Fevil (Jan 22, 2004)

Ruined said:
			
		

> I want to touch upon the titanic origins behind most Sorcerous powers.




Is it definately Titanic? You could have it be the result of a liason an ancestor had with an angel/demon/devil/fey/elemental etc.

You could then have a descendant of that creature come looking for its "relation". It could even be the creature itself, and it doesn't have to be a happy reunion either.

It's extremely rough around the edges but I hope it will maybe light a spark of imagination.


----------



## Nightfall (Jan 22, 2004)

Alright folks time to get this show on the road. 

Firstly Zelda, email me ASAP. Want to discuss Blood Sea with you. 

Secondly it's okay to post spoiler stuff here. That's what it's for. Thirdly, I'll now do the quoting/answering thing.



			
				Zelda Themelin said:
			
		

> I thank too, both of you.
> 
> Now if someone would gather feats the same way, nothing fancy, just basic list, with books with page numbers, maybe requiments needed to have that feat too.



I'm REALLY working on it Zelda. But it takes time and energy plus access to resources not at my disposal at the moment. (Blood Sea and PG: Monks and Paladins being one of them) 

But rest assured I'll do so. 



			
				Zelda Themelin said:
			
		

> So, Nighty, you know for sure or not that I can have the ignan template from planar book (when if far future ever that will be published)?



As sure as Assathi are now my new favorite Mormo bred race.  Just trust me it will be in there. 



			
				Zelda Themelin said:
			
		

> Oh, and does anyone got Blood Sea yet. I got it today. Haven't had time to read through it yet, however.



Not in stores here but that's to be expected. 



			
				Zelda Themelin said:
			
		

> Nightfall, about our earlier discussion. Easier titants to resurrect are Kadum and Gulaben. Kadum is 'just' chained and would need to his heart restored to him. Gulaben would simple be found and freed. Lethene has left to too far realms simple to be called back, and not sure she would wish to return for long eons to come, if if she were called. Thulkas would probably be more easy to summon from sun, but restoring his form would be quite a task.



Granted Kadum just needs his heart, but who in the hell would be that damn foolish, stupid or crazy to come into Belsameth's realm and try to STEAL it?! That's like walking up to the White House and yelling "Hey I'm going shoot the President!!" Gulaben though isn't remembered by ANYONE not a Hedradan for the most part. But granted far easier than Lethene, since I also agree she's moved on to other realms to enjoy her freedoms. 



			
				Zelda Themelin said:
			
		

> Denev getting completely healed would be quite a task too.



Well if you get her heart fixed yeah. 



			
				Zelda Themelin said:
			
		

> Mesos, Mormo, not easy. Despite the amount of talk going around Mormo's active servents, or some remarks made on nature of arcane magic and existing things like Arcane devourers, those too are quite beyond normal help.
> DM's Deux Ex Machina kind of thing would be needed there. There is no direct possibility of events there.



Well no more direct than assaulting Belsameth's home and stealing Kadum's heart or figuring out where Gulaben is being sealed away. If anyone remembers her that is. But I still think with the numbers of followers both have a greater chance. But we'll see.



			
				Zelda Themelin said:
			
		

> With Kadum is something simple, like get his heart back and something to break the chains. Then Kadum just goes to rampage to restore his lost vitality or something. Unlikely to happen (gods would probably take notice, which is the real hard another part here).



Like I said Kaju fight with the Mithril Golem. Also the getting the heart is the tricky part.



			
				Zelda Themelin said:
			
		

> Gulaben would be much simpler. Though I am sure the binding is strong, but real problem would be finding the place. No wonder she was wanted to be forgetten. Some clever bastard would probably come with the way. And getting something like Gulaben caught again would be quite hard for gods. Slaughtering weakened Kadum would not, unless other issues were preventing that.
> 
> But anything this epic a plotline is always kind of unique idea for most dm:s who wish to go for those. That's why I don't want sword and sorcery studio getting some crappy novel published and trying to shove it's logic into our throats. We are better served with ideas.



Agreed and not saying Gulabean couldn't be released just much harder. I think though all of us agree getting Gormoth or Golthagga back together is probably toughest of all since they are kind stuck. Thulkas...well he just needs to get out of the sun. In any case epic plots involving the Titans should be left to the DMs, as you say. Crappy novels not necessary.




			
				Ruined said:
			
		

> Nightfall, looking for a suggestion. I have a Monk/Sorceror in the group, one of the newer players. I've got the PC worked into the campaign with good reasons to travel with the party and get caught up in the metaplot. But I always like to develop side plots for each PC, and for some reason I'm drawing a blank. I want to touch upon the titanic origins behind most Sorcerous powers.



Well let me ask are you sure it a titanic heritage. I mean I agree with Fevil he could have infernal or celestial lineage. Unless you want him to be titanic. In which case I'd say get him to join up with the Brotherhood of the Scarred Hand and the Redeemers of Golthain. They might have insights into him/her being a Golthainite touched sorcerer. (If that's where her focus lies.)


----------



## Ruined (Jan 22, 2004)

I'm open to other possibilities as far as her sorcerous heritage. BUT, with my campaign, I have tried to keep Gods and Titans in the limelight. My feeling, when I start throwing celestials and devils in themix that aren't as tied to Gods or Titans, it feels clumsy. (Plus I ran lots of Planescape, and I want a different feel and mix for myself).

The players are not as familiar with all of the cool stuff in SL history, such as how sorcerors and wizards were before the fall of Mesos, and I'd like to factor that in.  I'm looking at a temptation angle from one titanic faction, quite possibly Gulaben since she's so important to my campaign.


----------



## Nightfall (Jan 22, 2004)

Ruined said:
			
		

> I'm open to other possibilities as far as her sorcerous heritage. BUT, with my campaign, I have tried to keep Gods and Titans in the limelight. My feeling, when I start throwing celestials and devils in themix that aren't as tied to Gods or Titans, it feels clumsy. (Plus I ran lots of Planescape, and I want a different feel and mix for myself).
> 
> The players are not as familiar with all of the cool stuff in SL history, such as how sorcerors and wizards were before the fall of Mesos, and I'd like to factor that in. I'm looking at a temptation angle from one titanic faction, quite possibly Gulaben since she's so important to my campaign.



Understandable. Well if you want something truly dispicable, have the monk fall in with the sorcerous crowd of the Society of Masques or even the Sirens. Either of which would provide great impetus for your Gulaben campaign. It would help if you gave me an idea of a titanic bloodline you'd like to exploit. That and what kind of focus the monk is looking as far as picking spells.


----------



## Zelda Themelin (Jan 23, 2004)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> Alright folks time to get this show on the road.
> 
> Firstly Zelda, email me ASAP. Want to discuss Blood Sea with you.




I did, if your e-mail still is the one presented here. In case it's not, here's the same question. About what?


----------



## Nightfall (Jan 23, 2004)

I got the email. And I'd prefer to keep this to email at the moment.


----------



## ruemere (Jan 23, 2004)

Zelda,
regarding your Blood Sea query, you may want to check these two pieces by one WyldHuntsman, encounter table and Grim Ghost.

Regards,
Ruemere


----------



## Taelorn76 (Jan 23, 2004)

Just a 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 in the the night.


----------



## Nightfall (Jan 24, 2004)

Yep it is what it is.  

Also wanted to say I have finally gotten Secrets of the Assathi. COOL AS HELL!!! (At least Cania hell anyway.) Trust me folks, once you read this book you will never look at snake men the same way again.


----------



## Nightfall (Jan 25, 2004)

I know I'm supposed to listing stuff folks...but come on! A little input now and again would be nice.


----------



## ruemere (Jan 25, 2004)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> I know I'm supposed to listing stuff folks...but come on! A little input now and again would be nice.



I think we need more lively discussions. Trickster, where are you? 

Regards,
Ruemere


----------



## Taelorn76 (Jan 25, 2004)

Nightfall,

You post in here more often than I so if you want to add the link the PrC page in your sig go right ahead. Hopefully that could spark up some more questions. 

I am also working on fluffing it up somewhat.


----------



## Trickstergod (Jan 25, 2004)

ruemere said:
			
		

> I think we need more lively discussions. Trickster, where are you?
> 
> Regards,
> Ruemere




Heh. I thought this was a thread for those with Scarred Lands questions to Nightfall. 

It's a rare thing that I have Scarred Lands questions. 

I had vaguely considered putting up the Jandaveos story up in here, but felt it wasn't entirely kosher to the conversation, and that most who follow this thread, likely read the messageboards over at the S&SS homepage. 

So I'm about, as usual. I just don't have anything to reply to - or didn't until now - and certainly have no questions for Nightfall. 

And now...I'm off to steal candy from babies and Ghelspad hardcovers from store shelves.


----------



## Nightfall (Jan 25, 2004)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> Nightfall,
> 
> You post in here more often than I so if you want to add the link the PrC page in your sig go right ahead. Hopefully that could spark up some more questions.
> 
> I am also working on fluffing it up somewhat.



Mm might do that.

Trick,

Yeah but if there are NO discussions, I don't get any questions.


----------



## Brennin Magalus (Jan 25, 2004)

Nightfall, if you ever want to archive your efforts I would be willing to host them.


----------



## Nightfall (Jan 25, 2004)

Brennin Magalus said:
			
		

> Nightfall, if you ever want to archive your efforts I would be willing to host them.



Well the Pr-classes I've already done. Just the feats are taking longer than I thought. In any case I'll get them done and someone can archive them.


----------



## Nightfall (Jan 26, 2004)

Bumping along...


----------



## uzagi_akimbo (Jan 26, 2004)

Okies - one mostly general question - is there some form of list (beyond the Ghelspad  Hardcover ) about climates and general weather conditions in certain areas of the continents ? As my group intends to go to and through the Bleak Savannah I was looking through its description in the hardcover and shook my head in disbelief - same geographical lattitude as Albadia, yet an apperantly moderate to warm climate ? I do undrestand about the plains of Lede having a warmer than usual climate, but this strikes me as very odd. A savannah (terrain type found almost exclusively in central Africa , especially one repleet with the lionine proud as a major  group right next doorto  a quasi-nordi cenvironment (albadia, also norther Kelders  ) ?
Besides - any other information about those alleged cultures to be found there  ?

Oh, and is there any hard fact information about the Titanhome Mountains beyond that in the "Ghelspad" hardvover ?


----------



## Fevil (Jan 26, 2004)

First, you need to remember that the Divine War screwed with more than just peoples lives. Entire ecosystems changed over the course of the war and time itself warped. The fact that weather patterns are a bit strange is just par for the course in Scarn.

Wilderness and Wastelands would be your best bet for what you are looking for IMO, or perhaps even FFGs Legends and Lairs: Wildscape.


----------



## uzagi_akimbo (Jan 26, 2004)

Fevil said:
			
		

> First, you need to remember that the Divine War screwed with more than just peoples lives. Entire ecosystems changed over the course of the war and time itself warped. The fact that weather patterns are a bit strange is just par for the course in Scarn.
> 
> Wilderness and Wastelands would be your best bet for what you are looking for IMO, or perhaps even FFGs Legends and Lairs: Wildscape.




I _know_ that the Divine War messed things up ( "lo and behold, the Ledean plains, home of the roaming toast-dragon"). But I was wondering if reliable fact existed or if I had to give my players at least a "folkloristic" explanation ( which then in all likelihood comes back to bite me ). And if there is a certain "microclimate" - does it have seasons, any special effects,  because that is information I simply cannot "reestablish" with a new ingame "source".

As for the books mentioned Wilderness and Wastelands deals more/mostly  with likely encounters and i haven's seen  FFG "Wildscapes" anywhere yet (and no announcements of it either, to be honest ). But thanks for the  recommendations.


----------



## Nightfall (Jan 26, 2004)

uzagi_akimbo said:
			
		

> Okies - one mostly general question - is there some form of list (beyond the Ghelspad Hardcover ) about climates and general weather conditions in certain areas of the continents ? As my group intends to go to and through the Bleak Savannah I was looking through its description in the hardcover and shook my head in disbelief - same geographical lattitude as Albadia, yet an apperantly moderate to warm climate ? I do undrestand about the plains of Lede having a warmer than usual climate, but this strikes me as very odd. A savannah (terrain type found almost exclusively in central Africa , especially one repleet with the lionine proud as a major group right next doorto a quasi-nordi cenvironment (albadia, also norther Kelders ) ?
> Besides - any other information about those alleged cultures to be found there ?



Well the Bleak Savannah does have a small refuge of Assathi. That plus some small human settlements that war with them, the proud and even some ratmen colonies. There are of course some goblins as well, but most those three.

And really no one is quite sure other than the Divine War doing it why the Bleak Savannah is like that. There are some legends that ascribe Thulkus as being the reason, but then he moved off to do his number on the Ukrudan. Another option, and this one is up to you, is there was a rumor that it was the Assathi that did back in the day when they ruled a lot of the Scarred Lands. Or the Slacerians. The Savannah is more desert-like in places with some winter weather mixed in. Look at Kenya and Mt Kilomanjario(sp) as example of how one gets a savannah and yet has a cold place as well. 

I do agree with Fevil that Wilderness and Wastelands is your best bet for describing the climate and also the occasional encounter. 



			
				uzagi_akimbo said:
			
		

> Oh, and is there any hard fact information about the Titanhome Mountains beyond that in the "Ghelspad" hardvover ?



Not really, just that when in the Titanshome Mountains, expect to find the unexpected, both above and below.


----------



## Trickstergod (Jan 26, 2004)

uzagi_akimbo said:
			
		

> Okies - one mostly general question - is there some form of list (beyond the Ghelspad  Hardcover ) about climates and general weather conditions in certain areas of the continents ? As my group intends to go to and through the Bleak Savannah I was looking through its description in the hardcover and shook my head in disbelief - same geographical lattitude as Albadia, yet an apperantly moderate to warm climate ? I do undrestand about the plains of Lede having a warmer than usual climate, but this strikes me as very odd. A savannah (terrain type found almost exclusively in central Africa , especially one repleet with the lionine proud as a major  group right next doorto  a quasi-nordi cenvironment (albadia, also norther Kelders  ) ?
> Besides - any other information about those alleged cultures to be found there  ?
> 
> Oh, and is there any hard fact information about the Titanhome Mountains beyond that in the "Ghelspad" hardvover ?




I always pictured the Bleak Savannah as being less like Africa, and more like something you might find in Mongolia. While I figure it doesn't see much snow, I always figured it to be a fairly cold, desolate place. Albadia being higher up as it is, I would assume that's why it's colder, but not so much that the two areas are completely different from one another. 

I'd have to go check my Ghelspad book, but even with the lion-like Proud, I see the Bleak Savannah as being fairly cold in nature.


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## Nightfall (Jan 27, 2004)

On that I certainly agree with Trick, Bleak Savannah being like Mongolia. However there are parts that are very warm I'd imagine. How else do you explain Mongolian Fire Oil?


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## Brennin Magalus (Jan 27, 2004)

*bump*


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## Taelorn76 (Jan 27, 2004)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> On that I certainly agree with Trick....




Do my eyes decieve me, Nightfall agreeing with Trick. What next? Will the Blood Sea be cleansed?


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## Brennin Magalus (Jan 28, 2004)

*bump*


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## Zelda Themelin (Jan 28, 2004)

Hi,

Could you give me list of products that are coming out.

And list of those that might be next on the list.

I know of slarecian book, planar book, and CC4 (though I'd like to know what it's focus is).


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## Fevil (Jan 28, 2004)

Theres is (in January) The Blood Sea: The Crimson Abyss and PG to Monks and Paladins. I think in March we have the Slerecian Legacy coming out and after that is Edge to/of? Infinity.

CC4 will predominately be about Fenrilik and the Dragon Isles, from what I got from the open call.

I'm sure Nighfall and/or others will help out more with exact dates and what not.


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## Zelda Themelin (Jan 28, 2004)

Thanks for info. I have Bloodsea.

I am curious about those books, that might be next.

Like new continent gazetters, Relics and Rituals 3 (if there is going to be one, and if is what is it about), some new area book (on Termana, or Ghelspad),
new novel, modules, other planned stuf.


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## Nightfall (Jan 28, 2004)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> Do my eyes decieve me, Nightfall agreeing with Trick. What next? Will the Blood Sea be cleansed?



Well we occasionally agree. Besides he's chaotic and it would be too much lawful to keep DISAGREEING with me. 

Fevil is correct in that the Blood Sea is out,  PG: Monks and Paladins will be out next week. That's it for Feb that I'm sure off. March has Echoes of the Past: Slacerian Legacy slated for March. (But might be late Feburary.) April or May, Edge of Infinity. 3Q/4Q, R&R3 along with CC4 is pretty much the extent that I know of. No other Scarred Lands books are known that I know of. At least none the author's are tellling. However I'm sure some where in there SLCS: Asherak will make an appearance. Possibly even a Gaz: Fenrilik.  

CC4 as Fevil says will focus on the Dragon Isle and Fenrilik but I'm sure there will be stuff for Asherak and Termana as well. 

I honest don't know of any regional sourcebooks at the moment, Zelda but if I hear about a Ghelspadian or Termanan one, you'll be the first to know.


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## Zelda Themelin (Jan 28, 2004)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> Well we occasionally agree. Besides he's chaotic and it would be too much lawful to keep DISAGREEING with me.




Come on, you agree when you agree, and it's that simple. You can also change your mind about it later.   

Thanks for info Nightfall. I appreciate. Well, I think I will be buying Scarn stuff in the future for time being.

[edited for stupid typing error]


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## Nightfall (Jan 28, 2004)

Glad I could help.


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## NarlethDrider (Jan 28, 2004)

_*chitter**scree**chitter*_ a narleth bump _*chitter**scree**chitter*_


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## JoeGKushner (Jan 29, 2004)

*Asaatthi questions*

I'm in the middle of reading the Vigil watch, Asaatthi book, and had some questions that I hope the sage can help me with.

"Also discover tips for usingthese serpentfolk in any d20 campaign, from details on the creatures' culture and lairs to unique magic and prestige classes." Is it my imagination or is that advice never actually here and it's more along the lines of d20 crunch that you can rewrite to belong to any game system?

When looking over the races, none of them seem to have racial hit dice, skills, or feats. No challenge rating adjustments either. Just a ECL. Busting out my Creature Collection Revised, I see that they (standard atl east), do have racial hit dice.

The asaatthi are a customizable foe, like the drow, orcs, goblins and other humanoids that are basically characters. Is it my imagination or is there a massive dearth of sample characters? (Haven't finished it yet but...)

Any help would be appreciated Nightfall. I know that your keen eye, and that of the other SL fans, might've picked up something I missed.


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## Nightfall (Jan 29, 2004)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> I'm in the middle of reading the Vigil watch, Asaatthi book, and had some questions that I hope the sage can help me with.



Well you're in luck Joe. I got the book too.  So I'll help as we go along.




			
				JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> "Also discover tips for usingthese serpentfolk in any d20 campaign, from details on the creatures' culture and lairs to unique magic and prestige classes." Is it my imagination or is that advice never actually here and it's more along the lines of d20 crunch that you can rewrite to belong to any game system?



Well there is something about the cultures in the swamps and Desert. I don't know if it will fit in EVERY world but I think the descriptions are an idea of how Asaathi culture. Plus you haven't checked out chapter 3 yet have you? 
Regarding the unique magic I think they were speaking of the Loci feats which make the magics more...sorcerous in nature to degree. Plus the whole variant on Weapon Familiars along with Techniques try to make them a litttle more powerful over all. 



			
				JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> When looking over the races, none of them seem to have racial hit dice, skills, or feats. No challenge rating adjustments either. Just a ECL. Busting out my Creature Collection Revised, I see that they (standard atl east), do have racial hit dice.



Yeah I noticed that too. I think for the "pure bloods" they have normal HD. The ones less tainted, the river ones, same. The others I'd give probably one or two HD hit but no feats to the Infiltrators, the Lowest one HD and the same for the last one. No feats however. That being said I'd probably use racial feats from CC Revised along with skills from that book. I know it's a pain but there you are. 



			
				JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> The asaatthi are a customizable foe, like the drow, orcs, goblins and other humanoids that are basically characters. Is it my imagination or is there a massive dearth of sample characters? (Haven't finished it yet but...)



Yeah it's not your imagination. There no good examples but then Warrens didn't have any either. That being said I do think that's probably the book's biggest weakness there.



			
				JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> Any help would be appreciated Nightfall. I know that your keen eye, and that of the other SL fans, might've picked up something I missed.



No but I do think if you reread chapter Three you'll get a better feel for the Asaathi over all.


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## Nightfall (Jan 29, 2004)

Bumping along...


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## Brennin Magalus (Jan 29, 2004)

Nightfall,

I added a link to this thread in my gaming forum.


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## Gez (Jan 29, 2004)

Hi Nighty,

I've a question about CC3. As I note in my first ENW review, it's sometimes frustrating how much it relies on other books. 

More to the point, can you enlighten me on the Seraphic Engine? What is it, what was its role, who made it, etc.


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## eryndel (Jan 29, 2004)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> When looking over the races, none of them seem to have racial hit dice, skills, or feats. No challenge rating adjustments either. Just a ECL. Busting out my Creature Collection Revised, I see that they (standard atl east), do have racial hit dice.
> 
> The asaatthi are a customizable foe, like the drow, orcs, goblins and other humanoids that are basically characters. Is it my imagination or is there a massive dearth of sample characters? (Haven't finished it yet but...)




One caveat, my contribution to this book was the History section, two prestige classes, and a little bit of miscellanea (spells, magic items, language...) so this isn't an official answer.  

It looks as if the Racial Hit Die was just left off for most of the subraces.  Barring an official errata, I would give the pureborn, Sefutiisi, and Saahueti 3 racial HD (3d8) giving Fort +1, Ref +3, Will +3 (to match CCRev).  This also gives them two feats.

The Lihueltessi and the Rrassek I wouldn't give any racial HD.  The former are to be somewhat like the non-asaatth race (often human, elf, or orc) and would make them based off that race.  The latter I think is an attempt to have an asaatth that could be played in a first level game.

I'll also note that it is my opinion (again not official) that if an asaatth takes a class in a spellcasting class similar to the inherent spellcasting it has, the effective spellcasting capability is the class level +3.  For example, a pure born has 2 class levels of wizard.  It is thus an 10th level character (3 racial hd +5 level adjustment + 2 class levels).  It would cast spells as a 5th level wizard but have all the other special abilities of a 2nd level wizard.

Hope this helps,

Werner Hager


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## Nightfall (Jan 29, 2004)

Gez said:
			
		

> Hi Nighty,
> 
> I've a question about CC3. As I note in my first ENW review, it's sometimes frustrating how much it relies on other books.
> 
> More to the point, can you enlighten me on the Seraphic Engine? What is it, what was its role, who made it, etc.



Right I saw that Gez but I can't really offer any enlightenment on the Seraphic Creature Template. I have no idea who did it or anything else regarding that template. 

Werner,

I think we can all safely say since you are an author for Secrets, that your opinion does count a lot more than mine. (Btw thanks adding that other stuff in there.) So thanks.


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## Gez (Jan 29, 2004)

I'm not interested on who (real world) made the template, but on what is that Seraphic Engine and who (in Scarn) is responsible for it.


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## Nightfall (Jan 29, 2004)

Gez said:
			
		

> I'm not interested on who (real world) made the template, but on what is that Seraphic Engine and who (in Scarn) is responsible for it.



Like I said, no clue. I guess it has something to do with creating inherent creatures of some power for the Divine War and I guess all the gods made them. I could be wrong but that's my speculation. I'm reasonable sure SLCS: Asherak will probably provide more definitive answers to your questions.


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## eryndel (Jan 29, 2004)

Nightfall,
No problem, I just wanted to make sure that I didn't come off sounding official when I'm not.  I'll save that for Andrew or perhaps the actual author who submitted that piece. (I really can't recall right now.)
But I love this book (SotA) so I always try to be right in the mix to help clear up any confusions or questions.

Werner


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## Nightfall (Jan 29, 2004)

Well your input is valued. I mean you DID work on the book a little. But I can understand wanting either Andrew or perhaps Will and/or Ben saying something. That being said I hope you did some contributions to Edge or was it Echoes you did work on?


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## Nightfall (Jan 29, 2004)

Keep this from moving off the page...


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## Torillan (Jan 29, 2004)

*Fenrilik?*

This has probably been asked before, but what do we know of Fenrilik?  I've seen it mentioned in various places, but I never got what the main "flavour" would be.  (Note: English spelling of "flavor" used to give impression that Torillan is smarter than he looks    )


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## Trickstergod (Jan 29, 2004)

Torillan said:
			
		

> This has probably been asked before, but what do we know of Fenrilik?  I've seen it mentioned in various places, but I never got what the main "flavour" would be.  (Note: English spelling of "flavor" used to give impression that Torillan is smarter than he looks    )




Chaotic Good monkey people Chardun banished to lands most cold for being, well, Chaotic and Good. Stupid merciful monkeys. 

The open call for Creature Collection IV also stated that they didn't particularly want Norse-inspired monsters. 

However, seeing as how the place is named Fenrilik, I don't believe that necessarily means it will lack Norse-flavoring so much as they just wanted a bit more originality to be offered up in their beasties. 

I'd also figure at least a little bit more info on the demigoddess Fraelhia.


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## Glaurung (Jan 29, 2004)

Gez said:
			
		

> More to the point, can you enlighten me on the Seraphic Engine? What is it, what was its role, who made it, etc.




The Seraphic Engine is involved with Asherak and will be detailed in full in an upcoming book. That's it, you can now begin your speculation.


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## Taelorn76 (Jan 30, 2004)

just curious but when can we expect SLCS: Asherak.


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## Will (Jan 30, 2004)

Hi, I did the Asaatthi subraces... I don't know how it appears in the book, but the intent was to provide tweaks from the standard. That is, assume 3 racial hit dice. Apologies for lacking feats and skills, but again, assume the standard. There were some tight space constraints, so I tried to be as economical as possible. CR shouldn't be tremendously different, though I'd adjust the misbred CR modifier to race +1 (I had set it as +3, which is silly), and a CR of 2 for the Lowest ones.

My estimation was that similar spellcasting levels stack. That is, normal Asaatthi + 5 wizard levels casts as an 8th level wizard, though only has 1 bonus feat and 5 levels toward a familiar.


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## Nightfall (Jan 30, 2004)

Torillan said:
			
		

> This has probably been asked before, but what do we know of Fenrilik? I've seen it mentioned in various places, but I never got what the main "flavour" would be. (Note: English spelling of "flavor" used to give impression that Torillan is smarter than he looks  )



Well it's icy, cold, and probably about as homey as Cania.  But I side with trick in that it will have some Norse Elements but I feel it will favor more Russian/Slavic stuff. So large ice castle will be the norm.

Taelron,

No idea but some time in 2004 would be my guess. Probably 3rd/4th Quarter. 

Will,

Thanks for the input man!  I appreciate it.


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## HonJull (Jan 30, 2004)

Is there a list somewhere of what the different contries and/or major cities import/export?  I've seen some of them in a few of the books, but not in others.  Am I missing it, or is it not there? =)


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## Trickstergod (Jan 30, 2004)

HonJull said:
			
		

> Is there a list somewhere of what the different contries and/or major cities import/export?  I've seen some of them in a few of the books, but not in others.  Am I missing it, or is it not there? =)




Both the Ghelspad and Termana softcovers and hardcovers should have that information for their respective continents. It's part of the government rundown - the ruler, population, etc, and the imports and exports should be in there. A few entries might give a bit more detail beyond that if you're looking for more, but other than the one sentence line per country or city-state, you're not likely to find much.


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## Nightfall (Jan 30, 2004)

Yep. There aren't a lot of them but SLCS: Termana and SLCS:Ghelspad have the most for each country and city-state in each place. So far though I don't know if all the regional suppliments have it, but I know Calastia, Hollowfaust and Mithril have it.  Hope that was helpful.

(wonders if maybe I should get Trick to have his own thread considering he answers questions too!  )


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## JoeGKushner (Jan 30, 2004)

Will said:
			
		

> Hi, I did the Asaatthi subraces... I don't know how it appears in the book, but the intent was to provide tweaks from the standard. That is, assume 3 racial hit dice. Apologies for lacking feats and skills, but again, assume the standard. There were some tight space constraints, so I tried to be as economical as possible. CR shouldn't be tremendously different, though I'd adjust the misbred CR modifier to race +1 (I had set it as +3, which is silly), and a CR of 2 for the Lowest ones.
> 
> My estimation was that similar spellcasting levels stack. That is, normal Asaatthi + 5 wizard levels casts as an 8th level wizard, though only has 1 bonus feat and 5 levels toward a familiar.




Well those are pretty bad strikes against the book. It's 120 pages, 8 pages less than Player's Guide to Rangers and Rogues, and the same price. I'm afraid that tight space constriants, especially considering the huge gaping white space with the prestige classes, just doesn't really sound too satisfactory.


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## Nightfall (Jan 30, 2004)

Something you'd take up with the production people, Joe. The writers, developers and editors just work with what's given. Not their fault if the guys doing the layout and other aspects of production don't do their jobs. Not saying this to mininize your feelings but there you are. 

But hey you DID get input from two the writers so that has to be some kind of plus!


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## JoeGKushner (Jan 30, 2004)

Hearing from two of the authors is a plus. I can understand there being 'space restrictions' but if you look at the book, it doesn't appear that there are any space restrictions on size or layout.

Maybe I'm just getting grumpier as I get old or just more picky as there is so much material out.

1. This book is overpriced page wise compared to other SSS books.

2. The books overall utility is dimisnished due to having to own the Creature Collection revised for the normal hit dice, feats, skill points, base attack,etc... of the varaints. 

3. There is way too much white space in the book towards the end.

4. The whole all purpose d20 feel is not there. Almost anywhere you look, the heavy hand of the SL setting is upon them ranging from where they live being influenced by the Divine War to how they live, being heavily influenced by their worship of Mormo. It's a SL book.

5. This doesn't count the fact that none of them have level adjustments as opposed to just effective character levels and none of the subraces have a CR.

6. As humanoids, each encounter has to be customized and there aren't any real examples of various strengths of asatthi from low to high.

Maybe it's just feeling less satisfied with SL books in general. Faithful and Forsaken isn't looking too good, didn't like that Penumbral Pentagram bit, the Creature Collection Revised still had some issues and still used that dog ugly art. I like SL but these books are starting to pushing my buttons the wrong way.


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## Trickstergod (Jan 30, 2004)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> Hearing from two of the authors is a plus. I can understand there being 'space restrictions' but if you look at the book, it doesn't appear that there are any space restrictions on size or layout.
> 
> Maybe I'm just getting grumpier as I get old or just more picky as there is so much material out.
> 
> ...




Well, at the very least, you're not alone in your diminishing satisfaction. For me, it was first drifting towards aspects of D&D that just never jived with me, such as psionics, that I can at least acknowledge other folk like, and then just bland to poor writing to go along with the consistently bad mechanics. There's also the recent references in a couple of books to templates or monsters that didn't show up in the books which they were supposed to show up in, and still haven't made any appearance yet. 

I don't have a personal problem with Scarred Lands specific setting books, though. However, I do have a problem when they go around claiming they're useful for any d20 campaign, when they're not, like the recent Player's Guides, and apparently the asaatthi book as well (which makes a similar claim). False or just mistaken advertising doesn't exactly endear me.

As it is, the only Scarred Lands book that catches my interest for the coming year would be the Edge of Infinity, and even then, I'm assuming it will be bad, but will give it a chance in the hopes that it's not. 

Ahh well. 

Gripe, gripe, gripe, badger, badger, badger,...badger, badger, mushroom, mushroom...


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## Nightfall (Jan 31, 2004)

Trick,

Hopefully you'll enjoy Edge. I know I'm looking forward to it.

Joe,

Like I said, I understand where you are coming from but I do believe the layout people are getting a little lackidasical for many people. I would like to point you could make the followers of another snake cultists besides Merusauk. Perhaps Set or someone similar. I will agree that needing CC Revised is a let down but not a major one. (Well maybe.) But I do agree with your 6th point, there should have been one but there wasn't. However we'll just have to see how it goes.


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## ruemere (Jan 31, 2004)

Trickstergod said:
			
		

> Well, at the very least, you're not alone in your diminishing satisfaction. For me, it was first drifting towards aspects of D&D that just never jived with me, such as psionics, that I can at least acknowledge other folk like, and then just bland to poor writing to go along with the consistently bad mechanics. There's also the recent references in a couple of books to templates or monsters that didn't show up in the books which they were supposed to show up in, and still haven't made any appearance yet.




I'm a little more optimistic than that. First of all, most of the books published until now must've been produced under severe stress of looming 3.5 version of d20 system. From what I know, all creatures in the most recent Creature Collection (the Third One) were originally submitted as 3.0 critters. The amount of work needed to convert CC Revised, all player guides, CCIII, Faithful and Forsaken and CS Termana is staggering. No wonder then, that errors appeared and web enhancements were delayed.

Hopefully, the people at SSS are a bit less tired now and they have more time to perfect things (who knows, perhaps the reason for the delay of PG to Monks and Paladins was the amount of final touches Joe and his crew were putting). Anyway, I am tremendously happy with CCIII and I am eagerly awaiting new stuff.

As for the other books. Well, I can live with them. They are not enough important (including player guides) to significantly influence my campaign.

Regards,
Ruemere


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## Dark Jezter (Jan 31, 2004)

Heya Nightfall.

Care to tell me what life is like for a horse nomad of the Kelder Steppes?  For my character background, I'm including a period where he dwelt for a time among the horse nomads, and wish to know about them.


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## Will (Jan 31, 2004)

When I talk about space constraints, I can only speak for my section. If I'm given X amount of words, I have a choice between what sections to elaborate on.

My approach was 'start with baseline asaatthi. Tweak what's changed in the subrace. Anything not changed is the same.' Subrace CR is the same unless otherwise noted (like misbred). It seemed fairly straightforward to me, and efficient in use of space.

I thought, given people's desire ot customize, that writing out page-long full writeups of each subrace, including repeated info, was less desirable than the other stuff I had.
Maybe I made the wrong choice, but that was the reasoning.


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## Will (Jan 31, 2004)

Trick: Player's guides not useful for any campaign?

Well, maybe not every game, but I'm getting a lot of use out of them for my current campaign, which is not at all Scarred Lands.

I find 90% of the feats and PrCs easily adapted.

Joe Kushner:
As for Asaatthi... well, I don't know about you, but I wouldn't find it hard to plug them into many settings. You just have to find a desert to plop them in, a snake goddess for them to worship and have lost.

I mean, I run a setting where dragons and demons fought an ancient, massive war that scarred the world. There's a desert continent to the east... the asaatthi would slot in without a problem. In fact, now that I think about it... maybe I _will_ have asaatthi in my game that way. Hmmm.

All I really need to change is the bit with slarecians, and just fit in 'the asaatthi take credit for ridding the world of demons.' I can even include Mormo as serpentmother, because my world doesn't have a small limited set of gods.


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## JoeGKushner (Jan 31, 2004)

Will said:
			
		

> When I talk about space constraints, I can only speak for my section. If I'm given X amount of words, I have a choice between what sections to elaborate on.
> 
> My approach was 'start with baseline asaatthi. Tweak what's changed in the subrace. Anything not changed is the same.' Subrace CR is the same unless otherwise noted (like misbred). It seemed fairly straightforward to me, and efficient in use of space.
> 
> ...




And that's perfectly understandable. However there is no baseline in the book meaning you have to own the Creature Collection Revised to get the baseline (with racial hit dice, CR, etc...) stats.

People's desire to customize is high I'm sure but books of monsters, templates, NPCs, maps, and cities hint pretty strongly as the desire to have fully fleshed out material as well.

Like Nightfall mentioned, I don't hold the authors responsible for the missing 8 pages, the massive white space, and general issues but it does effect my impression of the SL as a whole.


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## JoeGKushner (Jan 31, 2004)

Will said:
			
		

> Joe Kushner:
> As for Asaatthi... well, I don't know about you, but I wouldn't find it hard to plug them into many settings. You just have to find a desert to plop them in, a snake goddess for them to worship and have lost.
> 
> I mean, I run a setting where dragons and demons fought an ancient, massive war that scarred the world. There's a desert continent to the east... the asaatthi would slot in without a problem. In fact, now that I think about it... maybe I _will_ have asaatthi in my game that way. Hmmm.
> ...




But here's the catch. Why would I do that when I already have Lizard Men and dozens of other variants? If you want to focus a campaign on the asaatthi, sure, it's a good book but if you just want to borrow from it, the utility goes way down and the announcement on the back of general notes simply aren't there. I love the fact that it mentions OA and Yuan Ti but it doesn't actually do anything with those ties. Redhurst is a great baseline if you want to talk about a book that actually lets you use it in multiple settings.


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## Trickstergod (Jan 31, 2004)

Will said:
			
		

> Trick: Player's guides not useful for any campaign?
> 
> Well, maybe not every game, but I'm getting a lot of use out of them for my current campaign, which is not at all Scarred Lands.
> 
> I find 90% of the feats and PrCs easily adapted.




Of the two I've read, both the full-out spellcaster books?

No more than just about any other book with feats and Prestige Classes. Feats are rarely so tightly bound into a setting that they can't be used anywhere, and the Prestige Classes are no more compatible, for the most part, than, say, a Harper Scout or Guild Thief from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. Or the Dawnbringer from the first Ravenloft gazetteer. 

The feats and Prestige classes also make up slightly less than half the books. Other than that, they're a lot of campaign setting information. Being able to use 90% of 48% of a book doesn't make a book useful for most fantasy campaigns. 

It's not necessarily that they can't be used in any campaigns, so much as they're no more compatible than any other book already tied to a campaign setting, despite the "Use in any campaign" blurbs, and are less compatible than books meant to be used in most campaigns. And even then, as I said, slightly more than half the info is Scarred Lands setting info. The usefulness in other campaigns is no more of a selling point than what almost any other d20 fantasy book could claim.

Of course, that's disregarding balance issues and my reluctance to make use of mechanics-related (like Prestige Classes) Scarred Lands material.


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## Taelorn76 (Jan 31, 2004)

*How many Player Guides have there been*

To expand the question a little further. Has there been multilpe releases of the same PG book? ie Fighters and Barbarians for 3.0 and then a later release of Fighters and Babarians for 3.5. If so is there a way to tell them apart? And does it apply to all the guides?


Thanks


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## Harlock (Jan 31, 2004)

I'm not the sage, but I can answer this last one.  All of the Player's Guides were released under the 3.5 ruleset so it is unnecessary to try and tell anything apart.

As a quick aside, I am smack dab in the middle of the Asaathi sourcebook and I have to say the feats are peachy keen.  I have a whole Epic level plotline running through my head now based upon the feats alone.  Humdinger of a book, and Reiella, Keiko... if you are reading this thread, turn back now, because I am very likely to discuss my plot in here.  Go on.  Beat it.  Scram.


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## Nightfall (Jan 31, 2004)

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> Heya Nightfall.
> 
> Care to tell me what life is like for a horse nomad of the Kelder Steppes? For my character background, I'm including a period where he dwelt for a time among the horse nomads, and wish to know about them.



Well they are a pretty much a hunter gatherer type deal, often making 
forgaging raids into Plains of Lede. Mostly they enjoy fighting on horseback and I'd probably say they live pretty much a barbaric lifestyle of honor, combat, respect for nature, Tanil and their demi-god. That's about it.




			
				Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> To expand the question a little further. Has there been multilpe releases of the same PG book? ie Fighters and Barbarians for 3.0 and then a later release of Fighters and Babarians for 3.5. If so is there a way to tell them apart? And does it apply to all the guides?
> 
> 
> Thanks



The books were written as 3.0 but when 3.5 was announced the editors/developers pushed them back so they could get them more 3.5 compliant. There have only been released that were meant for 3.5 even if there are some 3.0 things in there. There are no copies that are different from each other or from the series. Now some might have MORE 3.5 stuff than the other but that's about it. Each one has been released and meant for 3.5 and there are no 3.0 then 3.5 copies like CC Revised is CC 1 revised.

Trick, Will and Joe,

Come on guys let's keep it civil.

Trick,

Now will it all fit into a campaign? No probably not but I think the list of books to use in spell research, various way to improve spell book hardness, along with tomes for researching true rituals are helpful. Will it work in every campaign no. But that's just my opinion.

Joe,

This is true but maybe you want something OTHER than moldy lizardmen and Yuan-Ti. (Let's face the whole issue of psionic use can be a burden.) Asaatthi at least have wizardly power and a greater reverance. Not sure I see how though they don't use those ties. I mean what else do you want Joe? Just asking.

Will,

I don't think any of us are denigrating your work just questioning how something came about.


----------



## Taelorn76 (Jan 31, 2004)

Harlock,

Thanks for the info.


----------



## Nightfall (Jan 31, 2004)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> Harlock,
> 
> Thanks for the info.



I was getting to it!


----------



## JoeGKushner (Jan 31, 2004)

I'm good Nightfall. Just pointing out that in some aspects, the Asaatthi book is another attempt at reinventing the wheel when the original spokes haven't been hit yet. Perfect for SL games that focus on that race but unlike the Ratmen who really had no D&D counterparts outside of Wererats, they're quite a bit of serpent/lizard alternatives. (I know of the Skaven, but not in the old D&D/d20 library so to speak.)

I like SL but find that enjoyment starting to dwindle for various issues.

Next up on the list is the Termana Hardcover which looks fairly good. Hopefully it won't set me up too much for a deeper reading and enjoyment of Faithful and Forsaken.


----------



## Will (Feb 1, 2004)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> Trick, Will and Joe,
> 
> Come on guys let's keep it civil.
> ...
> ...




(laugh!) I guess I came off more defensive than I intended... I just meant to explain that very thing, how things came about, at least at my end.

I didn't have a lot to do with most of the player's guides, so my reaction to Trick was just a little surprise. I see his point... setting material doesn't translate directly. I suppose a book that was much more about new PrCs and feats would translate more.

Re: Joe and Asaatthi being yet another reptilian race... one of the things I was very interested in exploring was not just a reptilian race, but a race where _everyone_ had magic. Where people were more likely to cast _light_ as use a lamp or torch.

The blend of ubiquitous magic, reptilian sensibilities, lost empires, and intense faith is somewhat distinct.

Actually, I think asaatthi would be great source material for magic-rich, decadent human civilizations...

I do agree that it would have been a good idea to include stats for normal asaatthi in the book. I'm actually surprised to hear there aren't.


----------



## Nightfall (Feb 1, 2004)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> Next up on the list is the Termana Hardcover which looks fairly good. Hopefully it won't set me up too much for a deeper reading and enjoyment of Faithful and Forsaken.



I'm sure that will be good Joe. I speak from experience here. The Religion section alone will be worth the time. Not sure about the appendix but you'll find a LOT of meat/fluff in there. There are some psionic aspects covered in the book. But some how I think SLCS: Termana is much better than F&F. (A great book versus just an average/good book.) 

Will,

It's all good man. I'm sure the Blood Sea will get a little better look. Quite honestly I felt Secrets was a good/very good book and certainly better in many respects to Faithful and Forsaken, which after a couple reads I have to agree with Trick is an average book.


----------



## caudor (Feb 1, 2004)

Dear Master Scarred Lands Sage:

First of all, thanks for taking time to share you hard-earned wisdom with us.  That's very kind of you 

My questions pertains to 3.5 and the future of Scarred Lands.  Actually, I own most of the Scarred Lands books published to date (missing a few region books).  However, up to this point I haven't read any of them in detail yet, aside from some borrowing some monsters for another campaign.

Now that I've learned and invested into the 3.5 system, and since it appears I'll have time to start a Scarred Lands campaign, I'm concerned about the fact that most of the books seem to be written for v3.0.  Put simply, I'm not sure if I'll have the energy to convert tons of material to 3.5 in order to play.

So a couple questions:  In your opinion, is the flavor of this world worth the effort of converting selected stuff to 3.5 (or is there support material that already has done this?)  Is there a place I can go to see what books are written for 3.0 versus 3.5?  Finally, I assume future Scarred Lands material will use the 3.5 rules, is that correct?

Thanks again for starting this thread!


----------



## Nightfall (Feb 1, 2004)

caudor said:
			
		

> Dear Master Scarred Lands Sage:
> 
> First of all, thanks for taking time to share you hard-earned wisdom with us. That's very kind of you



I try to do my best. I'm not infallible but my ego likes to say otherwise. 



			
				caudor said:
			
		

> My questions pertains to 3.5 and the future of Scarred Lands. Actually, I own most of the Scarred Lands books published to date (missing a few region books). However, up to this point I haven't read any of them in detail yet, aside from some borrowing some monsters for another campaign.



So I take then you have CC Revised then? 



			
				caudor said:
			
		

> Now that I've learned and invested into the 3.5 system, and since it appears I'll have time to start a Scarred Lands campaign, I'm concerned about the fact that most of the books seem to be written for v3.0. Put simply, I'm not sure if I'll have the energy to convert tons of material to 3.5 in order to play.



That's certainly understandable.



			
				caudor said:
			
		

> So a couple questions: In your opinion, is the flavor of this world worth the effort of converting selected stuff to 3.5 (or is there support material that already has done this?) Is there a place I can go to see what books are written for 3.0 versus 3.5? Finally, I assume future Scarred Lands material will use the 3.5 rules, is that correct?
> 
> Thanks again for starting this thread!



I'll answer this in reverse order. All the future books with the exception of any Psi-Handbook material, will be 3.5. Thus Echoes of the Past: Slacerian Legacy will use the stuff in 3.0 Psionics. (Even though I'm sure there will be stuff drawn from Malhavoc Press, at least in regards to If Thoughts Could Kill.) There is no current place but I will say anything before Creature Collection Revised will be 3.0. Anything after that will be 3.5. (Or at least try to be.) It can be worth IF you feel strongly about it. Myself I keep a hybrid mix since while I learned 3.5 I just didn't feel that drawn to completely making the change. That being said, if you want to fully upgrade to 3.5, then you will have to make SOME changes but not as much as say going from 2nd to 3.5. Hope that helps in your decision making process.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Feb 1, 2004)

Hmmm maybe my hint in the other thread was too subtle… 

Anyhow I shall ask my PG specific questions here.

What does the PG have to offer a PrC wise for a follower of “Sune” (FR: Goddess of Love and Beauty) obviously I’m wanting to use the “generic” nature of the Scarred Lands to mine for ideas.


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## Brennin Magalus (Feb 1, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Hmmm maybe my hint in the other thread was too subtle…
> 
> Anyhow I shall ask my PG specific questions here.
> 
> What does the PG have to offer a PrC wise for a follower of “Sune” (FR: Goddess of Love and Beauty) obviously I’m wanting to use the “generic” nature of the Scarred Lands to mine for ideas.




The _Shelzar Eroticist_ from the wizards, bards, and sorcerers book might suit you (I wouldn't recommend the book in general, though).


----------



## caudor (Feb 1, 2004)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> That being said, if you want to fully upgrade to 3.5, then you will have to make SOME changes but not as much as say going from 2nd to 3.5. Hope that helps in your decision making process.




Thanks for information!  Yes, that sure does help with my decision.  I have CC1 revised, so most of the monsters I'll need are probably in there.  What attacts me to the world is the obvious flavor, and the positive comments by you and others.  And besides...I own most of it already, so what do I have to lose?  If anything I can scoop out all the juicy portions and make my own SL-based homebrew.

And who knows what cool 3.5 SL products are coming down the road.  Upon reflection, it would be a waste if I didn't use the material.  That particular thought makes me want to put some the effort into it 

Thanks again!


----------



## Trickstergod (Feb 1, 2004)

Will said:
			
		

> (laugh!) I guess I came off more defensive than I intended... I just meant to explain that very thing, how things came about, at least at my end.
> 
> I didn't have a lot to do with most of the player's guides, so my reaction to Trick was just a little surprise. I see his point... setting material doesn't translate directly. I suppose a book that was much more about new PrCs and feats would translate more.




I hadn't really been trying to be uncivil, either. Just trying to explain my own position on the matter, even though I disagree at the drop of a hat. Ahh well. 

I certainly feel the Cleric and Druid guide was worth my money (having only borrowed a friends copy of Bards, Sorcerers and Wizards), but that's mainly because I run a Scarred Lands game, and generally like the setting. 

From my perspective. I do run two other games, neither of which are necessarily going to translate well with the Scarred Lands (Midnight and Ravenloft), so perhaps that's it. No matter. 

And, to Nightfall: No, I don't believe the Faithful and the Forsaken was average. The charduni half was average (perhaps even good, if it weren't for what I felt was one major inconsistency with the way the Scarred Lands have been set up), but the forsaken elf half...just...bleah. Hackneyed even within the Scarred Lands, lacking in what I would consider pertinent information along with other explanations for details within and written with far too modern a tone to it. 

Now off to stitch up the vein which just popped on my forehead.


----------



## Nightfall (Feb 1, 2004)

Brennin Magalus said:
			
		

> The _Shelzar Eroticist_ from the wizards, bards, and sorcerers book might suit you (I wouldn't recommend the book in general, though).



Only if you fear Blessed of Mesos.  But yes Shelzar Eroticist along with Courtsean of Idra might be up your ally Shatterstone.

Caudor,

Glad I could be of service.


Trick,

Well okay maybe I overplayed that but it was average to me. Btw you might want to see a doctor about that head wound.


----------



## Nightfall (Feb 2, 2004)

Slight bump but with a purpose.

NarlethD,

Here's two of my sample NPC Narleths. I hope you like em.


----------



## Taelorn76 (Feb 2, 2004)

Big Bump. No Purpose


----------



## JoeGKushner (Feb 2, 2004)

*Clerics & Druids: Revisionist History?*

"Thse places- the Planes- nevertheless barred the gods from reentering Scarn."

"They (titans) took out their frustations onnew gods, whom they created and destroyed in seemingly endless succession."

There were several bits in Clerics and Druids that just seemed to want to add layers and layers of time and deepth to the setting. The druid section makes them much more friendly in terms of player use, but almost destroys the whole Titan Spawn aspect which made them, in my opinion, so much more interesting than druids from other settings. 

What's your feedback on that Nightfall? I am taking books like The Divine and The Defeated, which hint that the gods are now outer planar creatures and didn't leave the prime plane until they slew the Titans too seriously?


----------



## Nightfall (Feb 2, 2004)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> "Thse places- the Planes- nevertheless barred the gods from reentering Scarn."
> 
> "They (titans) took out their frustations onnew gods, whom they created and destroyed in seemingly endless succession."
> 
> ...



Well obviously understand that each book is kind of contradictory in many places. Obviously we are dealing with people's opinion. Now regarding whether or not you can have good druidic followers of the titans, it's all dependent on that point of view. Obviously if you feel otherwise, explain to your players you'd prefer non-good druids be more common than good one. Regarding the whole "Gods leaving Scarn", it's more an aspect I think of the Epoch of Mesos deal and maybe the gods themselves re-writing history. (Plus the fact some of it was gathered suspectly. I mean hey does it look like I trust that geezer Yugman?! ) Now it might just be the gods left to let the titans gnash their teeth a while but then came back when they felt the need. Again these are just opinions, and certainly it's something that makes its very to get what anyone can call accuracy or truthfulness. Truth as they say is the first causality of war. If you have more questions or comments Joe, be happy to hear you out.


----------



## JoeGKushner (Feb 3, 2004)

I'm enjoying the book but worry that all of these little changes are going to play havoc with the continuity of the setting. As they continue to add more and more background and go farther and father back, the setting loses some of that original savage appeal that made it so interesting.

I'm also a little at a loss as to how to incorporate the various druid aspects. I think it's great that they are now more player friendly with animal lords (ah, thank god for the Book of Deluxe Templates and its beast lords), spirits, ancestors and places of power, but after a while, perhaps other core classes could've filled those voids like Green Ronin's Shaman or Witch, something I may consider and leave the druid the vile titan worshipping fiend it is.


----------



## Nightfall (Feb 3, 2004)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> I'm enjoying the book but worry that all of these little changes are going to play havoc with the continuity of the setting. As they continue to add more and more background and go farther and father back, the setting loses some of that original savage appeal that made it so interesting.
> 
> I'm also a little at a loss as to how to incorporate the various druid aspects. I think it's great that they are now more player friendly with animal lords (ah, thank god for the Book of Deluxe Templates and its beast lords), spirits, ancestors and places of power, but after a while, perhaps other core classes could've filled those voids like Green Ronin's Shaman or Witch, something I may consider and leave the druid the vile titan worshipping fiend it is.




Well if you pick up the Ranger book, you'll see some "wild" places that make for using survival checks a much needed boon. I do understand your concern about "losing" the wild and rugged aspects of the setting. I guess I don't see it as much since much of the travel overland is far from settled. There are still places where the taint of the titans is very strong. But if you're speaking about the savageness as it relates to the classes, I don't know what else to add.

Regarding adding core classes, I do think Shaman would be a good addition to the setting and maybe keeping druids the way they are. It's your choice. Certainly while I enjoy keeping the druid in various varieties, perhaps using Shamans and/or adepts more is a sincere possibility. Witches...not so sure but it's your call.


----------



## Taelorn76 (Feb 3, 2004)

I had not thought about keeping the druids as a "vile titan worshipping fiend", but I like it. It gives them more of a cult feel, a little paganistic it you will. Hope you don't mind but I think I'm going to poach that idea and flush it for my campaing.


----------



## Nightfall (Feb 3, 2004)

Hey I'm down with that.  Cultists druids are my thing.


----------



## JoeGKushner (Feb 4, 2004)

*Shamans and Druids*

So how would you break up the various options for druids into shaman classes in the SL setting?

I'm thinking that the beast lord cults would be prime druid material while the places and ancestors might be more shaman suited. 

Thinking about the witch, but they've always been more the wise woman type deal, not necessarily something for the druid/shaman connection.

Reading Termana, I can see where the Clerics/Druids book picked up on some of its vibes but felt its reasonining was a little weak. "Why has this never been heard of in Ghelspad? Uh... it's the gods man, they don't want you worshipping stuff... Yeah, that's the ticket..."


----------



## Will (Feb 4, 2004)

One variant I've often used in my games, for witches, is to start with a sorcerer class, use the druid list (but still Cha as a tied skill), and use druid skills/skill points.

Of course, in many ways, I like that variant more for regular druids and the druid class as-is for witches, but that's me.


Anyone have questions about Blood Sea yet?


----------



## Fevil (Feb 4, 2004)

Will said:
			
		

> Anyone have questions about Blood Sea yet?




I have one, and hopefully, since you asked, you are in a position to answer it.
Why, exactly, was the distance between Ghelspad and Termana made to be 10-12,000 miles? Am I one of the only people to think that this distance is a bit....extreme?


----------



## Nightfall (Feb 4, 2004)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> So how would you break up the various options for druids into shaman classes in the SL setting?
> 
> I'm thinking that the beast lord cults would be prime druid material while the places and ancestors might be more shaman suited.



Sounds good to me. Certainly would work well in that respect. 



			
				JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> Thinking about the witch, but they've always been more the wise woman type deal, not necessarily something for the druid/shaman connection.



Yeah but I don't necessarily see the need for a witch. Adept, sorcerer and/or druid works well in that respect for me. But in any case adding the shaman core class is fine to my mind. Not a core witch however.

Will,

Agreed but doesn't hurt to add something like Shaman in some respects. Especially since we already have one OA class. No questions yet Will. I still need the book.

Fevil,

It was a little much but then again perhaps the people measuring (not the writers themselves) were just a little off because their measurements were innaccurate.


----------



## Nightfall (Feb 5, 2004)

bumping this along...


----------



## Will (Feb 5, 2004)

Regarding the distance... I have a strong suspicion the distance was my idea. It may not have been, but let's say it's me... 

The thought process, as best as I remember, was the following:

Based on the maps of Ghelspad and Termana, there is a strong sense that Termana is at least a few times the north-south length of Ghelspad away. I think that came out to the neighborhood of 10,000 miles.

In addition, ships speeds, as listed in the PHB, are between 2 and 3 miles per hour when under sail. Assuming they can manage to move 12 hours a day, this comes out to a trip of 11 months. A bit long.

There are numerous stops along the way, though none as valuable as the endpoints. Adding any magic, and the trip might be down to 6-8 months.

There are other issues, but I don't have the book myself yet, and memory is hazy. I vaguely remember a way to use Profession (sailor) to catch tradewinds and improve speed. No idea if it made it in, but if so, it makes a difference.

Some people have varying ideas of how much magic is available in the Scarred Lands, which may impact reaction to the distance.


----------



## Nightfall (Feb 5, 2004)

Thanks for the insights Will.

Btw there's a certain Blood Sea Pirate I was curious about. Erlick "The Bloody Yardarm" Thesk. Remember him?


----------



## Trickstergod (Feb 5, 2004)

Will said:
			
		

> Based on the maps of Ghelspad and Termana, there is a strong sense that Termana is at least a few times the north-south length of Ghelspad away. I think that came out to the neighborhood of 10,000 miles.




Hmm. You know, I keep looking at the map to Ghelspad and Termana, and while not scaled to one another, based on the shape the Blood Sea takes on each map, it seems that the Calastian archipelago is roughly on the same latitudinal line as the Karisan city of Regama, and from there, there's approximately 3 or so thousand miles between the two. 

But, perhaps in muddling over scale, my brain was shot to pieces. I suppose I'll have to peak at the Blood Sea book for its map to see if I can see where you're coming from at all. 

In the mean time, I do have a question of my own about the Blood Sea Book. Well, sort of.

What's up with the Base Attack Bonus and Saving Throw Advancement of the Seaborn? In the quarterly, it was all out of whack. Is this the same in the Blood Sea book, and if so, why? 

I don't necessarily mind the mold being broken on how the attack bonus and saves advance, but doing it mid-stream or without reason doesn't exactly enthuse me. 

Or were the out of whack save and attack bonus progression in the quarterly just a quickly thrown together rough draft of the prestige class that was later cleaned up for the Blood Sea book? Which really isn't too big a deal. But I'm curious if it's been changed, or if not, just why in the world it wasn't.


----------



## Will (Feb 5, 2004)

I don't have the book yet, and I didn't work on the Seaborn, so I have no idea.


----------



## Fevil (Feb 5, 2004)

Trickstergod said:
			
		

> What's up with the Base Attack Bonus and Saving Throw Advancement of the Seaborn? In the quarterly, it was all out of whack. Is this the same in the Blood Sea book, and if so, why?




Trickstergod, AFAICT what you saw in the Quarterly is what is in the Blood Sea. Exactly the same.
Obviously I can't tell you why, but at least you now know.


----------



## Nightfall (Feb 5, 2004)

I'd say if bothers you that much Trick, just set it at cleric's BAB and save progressions.


----------



## uzagi_akimbo (Feb 5, 2004)

Will said:
			
		

> Regarding the distance... I have a strong suspicion the distance was my idea. It may not have been, but let's say it's me...
> 
> The thought process, as best as I remember, was the following:
> 
> ...





Hmmm, your calculations do not make much sense

PHB Speed for sailing vessels - hmmm a speed of 2-3 knots (nautical miles per hour ) is pretty low, actual medieval , premedieval and antique sailing vessels were capable of sustained  (depending upon wind direction and continuity ) hauls of  4 to 5 knots, with 6 knots (or even 7 ) possible under the most beneficial conditions (like a strong, consistent tailwind ). But 2 to 3 miles an hour may  do as an 'average', if one assumes a ship lying about in coves etc waiting for changing winds. Which I cannot really imagine for a long, non-stop trans-oceanic voyage (where would be the harbours/coves ? ). Also, a feasible route with constant or at least reliable winds would be the first thing that trans-oceanic seafarers are going to establish/ascertain. Historically they did.  Not taking into account magically aided weather control or at least  precise divination of winds and tides. 

Second - why would a trans-oceanic ship sail only 12 hours out of a possible 24 a day ? If they simply hove-to and  drifted during nightime, it would play merry hell with navigation, drift being far harder to calculate than controlled sailing in a determined direction. If they had superior ( in comparison to real life medieval navigation capabilities ) means, why not sail straight  through the night - away from the coast , one does not have to worry about reefs, or shoals too much. And they must have - or I have failed to notice the mentions ofa long chain of island reaching from Teraman to Ghelspad allowing close coastal navigation by landmark.
Although I assume that Gehlspadian navigation (aided by magic ) would be inherently superior to historical one, which was actually loaded down with superstitions, religious dogma and faulty mathmatics until the renaissance age and even into the 18th century. Ffew if any historical sailors would have attempted venturing into the unknown and trackless oceans without such means. I do not consider the  mariners of Ghelspad more foolhardy. So no land-dependent navigation, hence no need (and no means on this route) to stay close to land,, and no reason to reduce sail at night to reduce risk of navigational mishaps. So, in conclusion a ship on its way between those continents would  sail at it's listed speed the entire day, maybe slightly less (but not really, at the speeds given in the PHB ) at night due to reduced sail (commonly done close to land only, though , as explained above).

Third - Ghelspad and Termana being 10000 miles apart without any major islands in between sounds exxagerated. Earth's entire circumference is 24000 miles (roughly) - so a hemisphere would measure roundabout 12000 miles.. .Which means approximately 6000 miles from a pole to the equator. Assuming an Earth-sized Scarn ( I haven't seen anything claiming it to be bigger, yet), of course.  But the problems creeping up with a larger, differently curved planet....... lets not venture there.
With Ghelspad several thousand miles across (and Termana many times that size again ) that would make it very difficult to even keep both of the continents on the same hemisphere , which they seem to be, the climate getting warmer to the south on both, although Termana seems to start out more southernly to begin with. Also Ghelspad is not actually within a presumed polar cap...


Which gives us (IMHO )  three options - Scarred Lands geography is very buggy (big news... ), it cannot actually be  10000 miles  or the Calastians have some extraordinary means to provision their colonizing ships (try the math for feeding dozens to hundreds of colonists and livestock for several months on end without being able to make landfall ).


Assuming the 3000 miles  theory mentioned  in this thread by Trickstergod, the passage  from south eastern Ghelspad to North western Termana could be made in in fortytwo days , six weeks, assuming PHB ship speeds (24 hours x 3 m/h = 72 miles/day).  That is ,without encountering storms, calms or damges to the ship, navigational errors and the vagaries of fate (like maritime monsters etc ). With a more realistic ship speed probably being compensated/absorbed by a less straight,  hence longer , route the six weeks would still seem solid as a rule of thumb. With storms or a wrecking,  a ten or even twelve weeks journey may result. Should be brutal enough with medieval shipping , yet  even worse things have been done in the age of exploration.
Just for comparison - three thousand miles is roughly the distance from Land's End, Great Britain to Long Island on the eastern US Seaboard on the old trans-atlantic steamer route.

My estimate would be that Ghelspad and Termana are approximately  3000 to 4000 miles apart, with Termana lying East by South-East from  Calastia... Now I just need an accurate map of the planet or a high orbit staleite to prove it


----------



## Trickstergod (Feb 5, 2004)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> I'd say if bothers you that much Trick, just set it at cleric's BAB and save progressions.




Fixing something has never been my problem. I'm curious about the whys of the changed attack and save progression, if any exist. If there is no rhyme or reason to it, then, while one of the most easily fixed problems, it's most troubling for the fact that it's not even a matter of balance issues or poorly thought out mechanics, but that the writer seems to lack an understanding of even basic d20 material. If there's no reason to it, it's sloppiness on a scale that should not be seen in professional, published worked, and that an editor familiar with d20 mechanics should have caught. 

Thus why I'm keenly interested in why the attack and saves were done the way they were done, and apparently went unchanged from the quarterly to the published work, as I've no reason not to believe Fevil. Something so basic as the attack and save progression shouldn't have any issues cropping up. Even if the writer came out and deliberately said, "Yeah, I don't like the current way attacks and saves go up," that'd be vaguely all right, though that still leaves me questioning why the editor didn't smack that thought right down and rectify things (in which case, I figure it would be that the save/attack progression is so basic, that it shouldn't have really even needed a glance. Shouldn't being the key word).


----------



## Will (Feb 5, 2004)

My calculations about speed and such were intentionally very conservative, outside numbers. Authors generally have to do that in public fora. 

So by your estimate, the 10,000 figure would be sailed in about 3-4 months. I wonder how many Calastian vessels make the voyage, and what kind of magic they'd spare.

As for islands... like I said before, there are definitely many islands between the two, with a good chance of provisioning even on the smaller ones.

I think Night mentioned there's at least one large port between the two.


----------



## Nightfall (Feb 6, 2004)

Will,

That would be Bloodport right?

Trick,

Understood. I was just commenting.


----------



## Nightfall (Feb 6, 2004)

I'd have more to say...but bumping is my calling.


----------



## uzagi_akimbo (Feb 6, 2004)

Will said:
			
		

> My calculations about speed and such were intentionally very conservative, outside numbers. Authors generally have to do that in public fora.
> 
> So by your estimate, the 10,000 figure would be sailed in about 3-4 months. I wonder how many Calastian vessels make the voyage, and what kind of magic they'd spare.
> 
> ...




Hmmm, yeah , if one used my numbers formulated above, 10000 mile could be done in about app 125 days of sailing.... but. that would be a straight journey, say from historical  Europe to the west coast of Australia ...which historically was done, yes, but only in a rather advanced age of sailing (late 18th century, 19th century ), with colonizing ships, but with reprovisioning stops in the Canary Islands, at Capetown and with absolutely inhuman conditions for the "colonists", aka prisoners, sentenced to life-sentences in Australia, chained under decks in the holds. In addition , these journeys, with stops, frequent calms and adverse weather could easily take six, seven or even eight months. And it was basically one way settlement, the return journey was even longer and stressful, especially for the ships. Medieval sailing technology, seamanship and logistics  even with magic enhancement would have been very hard pressed to deal with it. I will not go into the difficulties of island/coastal reprovisioning stops, but will only mention that you need a convenient sized island, with a reasonably safe (no reefs, currents, special hazards, defensible ) harbour, close to your route (smack in the middle of an open ocean) with  friendly, non-monstrous inhabitants. These are rare, and may simply be inconveniently placed. Hard to imagine that on the outskirts of the Blood Sea (and I haven't seen the supplement yet ).

And it still leaves open as to where precisely to place Termana in Scarn's northern hemisphere - 10000 miles away from south eastern Ghelspad, yet still in the northern hemisphere, this would place it  somewhere slightly east of India on Earth if one assumed Ghelspad to be about the size and in the place/climatical bracket of North America. Given the size of Termana, this would mean it would be much easier to reach sailing west from Ghelspad and save a couple of thousand miles... I say, bugged geography of Scarn again - or strike the 10000 miles. Where does that number come from, anyway ?


----------



## Nightfall (Feb 6, 2004)

Like most everything done Uzagi, it's just something decided by the authors. Or in Will's case, his own understanding.


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## uzagi_akimbo (Feb 6, 2004)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> Like most everything done Uzagi, it's just something decided by the authors. Or in Will's case, his own understanding.




Actually I have to apologize to Will  - which I hereby do. ! Sorry Will - the fault is not yours. If I came over angry, the anger was directed at the numbers mentioned by you - for which you have no real responsibility, after all. mea culpa !

Two hours ago my copy of "Blood Sea" arrived at my house, and since then I have been reading it, clapped it shut repeatedly and reopened it again  and over time slowly started foaming (my slitheren blood acting up, I guess). Chapter one has a map of both Ghelspad's and Termana's relative location and shows the distances involved printed on page16 which backs up Will's estimate - it shows a massive 9000 to 10000 miles wide gap between the two continents with nothing in between but an island chain the size of Hawaii. I knew Scarred Lands cartography and world design was a bit "odd" but this .......is freaking me out !  The Blood Sea (the parts of it on the map, that is - its core area measures roughly 11000  x 17000 miles, but several huge areas of watery nothing surround that zone )  is vastly  larger than the Pacific Ocean, and definitely less densely studded with islands.

There are a lot of other unbelievable (if the map is to taken at face value in any way ), so currently my brain is looking for its ability to ignore what I am reading  - like a hefty 4000 mile gap between the north coast of Ghelspad and the edge of polar ice ( that is roughly the distance between North Africa and the northern polar icecap.... I wonder about the snow in Albadia now, yeah ),  or the size of Scarn implied by that map. Those Calastians must really have been weathered  mariners to look for land THAT far out...

At the moment I am baffled- I just wanted to apologize to Will.


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## Will (Feb 6, 2004)

No apologies necessary. Righteous indignation about the stupidities of game authors are pretty much de rigeur for game design. 

I suggest moving on to the rest of the book, then coming back to the issue and see if it makes some more sense. If not, change it for your own game, shake a fist at us nitwits, and move on.

It's possible that Scarn is simply much bigger than Earth. I'm reminded of the Majipoor Chronicles (SciFi.. .sorta), with lots of huge oceans.

Also, again, keep in mind magic. One Divination could say 'if you sail due east, you'll find the land I wish you to find.' Or west, if it's the Charduni doing the asking.


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## Taelorn76 (Feb 6, 2004)

Reading the last several posts I came to the same conclusion that Will brought up, is Scarn bigger than the Earth? Is the actual size of Scarn written anywhere?


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## Will (Feb 6, 2004)

Oh, double checked the PHB.

Actually, the rules say that a sailing ship can move a full 24 hours, and that is counted in the average speed. So not counting magic, favorable winds, or anything, a 10k mile voyage is made in 7 months. Say 8, with a few substantial stops.


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## Nightfall (Feb 6, 2004)

Tael,

No idea but if it is, must not be affected by it size to its relative 24 hour passing days.


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## Will (Feb 6, 2004)

Er. For what it's worth, turns out I _did_ set the distance as 2500 Hedrad - North Crilos or 2000 miles from southeast Ghelspad to Termana.

As for size and day length... there's actually no real reason why day length has anything to do with size. Jupiter has an 11 hour day, while Venus has something like a 200+ day-long 'day.'


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## Nightfall (Feb 6, 2004)

Make sense to me Will. 

Btw you never did answer my question, do you know who did work on The Bloody Yardarm?


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## Harlock (Feb 6, 2004)

Does anyone have many ideas on exactly what the Asaathi guardians are in The Jewel?  Golems?  Traps?  I figure those, what else?  Undead minions?  I was thinking of taking my SL game to Epic Proportions, against my better judgement (not a fan of Epicness).

After reading the Ancestral Weapon feats and having a demigod-like sword just blew me away as a campaign option.  I don't want it to be an entire Dungeon Crawl.  Obviously if a weapon like that exists, the Asaatthi would be very interestedin it.  Does anyone think there is sufficient motivation for the Asaatthi to be afraid of such a weapon?  Maybe the powers that be right now are afraid of being ousted by new leadership?  Is there a reason they might work with the party in secret to find this weapon and then hope they destroy each other?


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## Nightfall (Feb 6, 2004)

Harlock said:
			
		

> Does anyone have many ideas on exactly what the Asaathi guardians are in The Jewel? Golems? Traps? I figure those, what else? Undead minions? I was thinking of taking my SL game to Epic Proportions, against my better judgement (not a fan of Epicness).



Probably that plus elemental Princes in some instances. I'd also so Primal Elementals as well. 




			
				Harlock said:
			
		

> After reading the Ancestral Weapon feats and having a demigod-like sword just blew me away as a campaign option. I don't want it to be an entire Dungeon Crawl. Obviously if a weapon like that exists, the Asaatthi would be very interestedin it. Does anyone think there is sufficient motivation for the Asaatthi to be afraid of such a weapon? Maybe the powers that be right now are afraid of being ousted by new leadership? Is there a reason they might work with the party in secret to find this weapon and then hope they destroy each other?



You weren't the only one.


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## Will (Feb 6, 2004)

No idea.

I did the adventure to save the paladin from an island, if that got in.


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## Nightfall (Feb 6, 2004)

Right well I guess I'll just have to ask the other authors.


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## Nightfall (Feb 7, 2004)

Bumping along...


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## FormidableDice (Feb 7, 2004)

Hi Nightfall.  Great thread!

I have just started getting interested in a Scarred Lands campaign.  I?ve played generic homebrew campaigns for several years with my players.  I would like to introduce them to Scarn.  

1) What _(minimum)_ materials would you suggest are absolutely necessary for a successful campaign with a scarred lands feel?  So far I have Relics and Rituals, Creature Collection (Revised), and Divine and the Defeated.  

2) Are there any modules (published or free) for the Scarred Lands setting?  

3) With the plethora of information and plot hooks I?ve picked up from the above sources, any suggestions on where to start and what an overall theme or adventure plot could be for introducing my players to the feel of the campaign?  (Sometimes I feel there is almost too many directions to go?but maybe that?s a good thing).   

Thanks for your advice.

FormidableDice


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## Nightfall (Feb 8, 2004)

FormidableDice said:
			
		

> Hi Nightfall.  Great thread!




I try. 



			
				FormidableDice said:
			
		

> I have just started getting interested in a Scarred Lands campaign.  I?ve played generic homebrew campaigns for several years with my players.  I would like to introduce them to Scarn.





Excellent!  



			
				FormidableDice said:
			
		

> 1) What _(minimum)_ materials would you suggest are absolutely necessary for a successful campaign with a scarred lands feel?  So far I have Relics and Rituals, Creature Collection (Revised), and Divine and the Defeated.




Well so far you're on the right track. I would suggest also the SLCS: Ghelspad and SLCS: Termana to help both broaden your range and perhaps narrow down your focus. Strange but true.  





			
				FormidableDice said:
			
		

> 2) Are there any modules (published or free) for the Scarred Lands setting?




So far the only set modules for the setting are the Serpent Amphora saga. A three part module that I feel is pretty good at doing the whole setup for the Scarred Lands.



			
				FormidableDice said:
			
		

> 3) With the plethora of information and plot hooks I?ve picked up from the above sources, any suggestions on where to start and what an overall theme or adventure plot could be for introducing my players to the feel of the campaign?  (Sometimes I feel there is almost too many directions to go?but maybe that?s a good thing).
> 
> Thanks for your advice.




I guess it depends more on how you want your group to work. I mean if I could understand their and your personalities, what things you all enjoy, I could offer more insights into what I feel would best highlight the fun stuff for you. I mean if you want a high intrigue campaign, picking up Calastia or Shelzar would be a good way to go. On the other hand if you want some more dungeon crawling feel, Hollowfaust and Hornsaw offer the best for that feel as well. Like I said it would help to determine what highlights you and your group enjoy when it comes to RPGs. But those are my suggestions.


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## JoeGKushner (Feb 8, 2004)

*Termana*

So what is your overall impression of Termana?

I like it but at the same time, have some trouble with it. The various elf empires are very cool, ranging from Melnibonean wanna bes with demon summoners and deacadent fools, to tired warriors waiting for the last battle.

I like the ghoul king bit. It's always good to have undead and their restless masters. I like the whole Blood Bayou bit and the Carnival. Very creepy. One day I do hope to see a mystic Carnival that isn't evil though.

I don't like the whole Charduni Empire bit though. They manage to take over almost all of Chelspad and couldn't even do it on their own country to two different parts. It's like their either really lucky when they moved west or really stupid on their home territory.

Unlike some, I like the whole psionic aspect and find it very interesting that they have so much material here that you could, don't have to, but could work into your campaign. I was a little disappointed at the lack of coverage on the various city states not covered in the countires though. No maps, no stat blocks on the cities and just a little too vague for me.

I don't like that you need the Gazatteer to get the stats for the PC races of the setting. Don't get me wrong, I know that that book is meant more as a PC supplement but as they talk about gnolls as PCs, having the actual stats in this book would've probably been a good thing.

Overall pretty interesting. One thing that seems very strange is none of the human nations really stood out from the rest. About the only one that i can recall off the top of my head is the Virduk's Promise (sp?) because its tied into tthe other setting.


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## Will (Feb 8, 2004)

Me, I really liked the ushada stuff. It was an element I missed in Ghelspad. Not to say I think it should have been in Ghelspad... It makes a certain sense for a heavily civilized place where an empire had once ruled etc. for ooold ways to be forgotten.

But then, I'm a big fan of shamanistic type stuff.


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## JoeGKushner (Feb 8, 2004)

I like the shaman stuff myself. I'll probably be using the shaman core class from Green Ronin to represent it though, as opposed to the druid taking on another role that's further from his original one.

The thing that bothers me is that the more stuff that comes out for the setting, the more inconsistant it becomes. The setting is sstill very young but there are now more 'issues' if you will with the history of the setting than there ever have been, but as the system gets older, I suspect that those issues will multiply.

The one thing I hope we see is new maps of the setting. Ed's internal maps in Termana are far better than the original one and I'd love to see him do a full map of Ghelspad as well. That would rock.


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## Will (Feb 8, 2004)

Yeah, the inconsistencies bother me, too, and become troublesome as an author.

Though having worked on several things, I have to say, that's always going to be a problem for multiauthor works. There simply isn't time to keep everything focused.

If you _do_ have the Keeper of the setting, then you run into the danger of production slowing to a crawl so the person can look over/correct everything. You also run into possible dangers of ego (even under the most mature of folks) and vision.

But yeah, would be nice if it were tighter.

Oh, fairness note: I worked on Termana, but had nothing to do with the ushada. Just did some of the write-ups, like Sun Isle and Padrinola. Not my best stuff... not that it was bad, just not as cool and large-scale as stuff in Asaatthi and Blood Sea.

I think using shamans instead of druids sounds like a good idea. I suspect they were trying to avoid adding core classes, which always has some controversy.

Another possibility are the Spiritwalkers. I love that PrC.


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## Trickstergod (Feb 8, 2004)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> I don't like that you need the Gazatteer to get the stats for the PC races of the setting. Don't get me wrong, I know that that book is meant more as a PC supplement but as they talk about gnolls as PCs, having the actual stats in this book would've probably been a good thing.




Of some small consolation, gnoll PCs, along with terali and gnomes, are detailed in the Creature Collection Revised. So at least they're within one of the settings "core" books. Although, then again, the gnoll PC stat block suffers from a lack of understanding about level adjustment and a few other things...but the same applies to the Termana Gazetteer from which it was cut and pasted. 

As for how memorable the human nations are...yeah, some were rather forgettable. Crilos, for example, didn't quite seem to come across as more than Albadia II. That it was founded by folk from Ghelspad didn't help out, either. 

Oh, and Joe, while not 3rd edition, there is the Ravenloft supplement, Carnival, which is primarily fluff, anyway. It's run by Isolde, a ghaele eladrin in the form of a woman. For that non-evil carnival you asked for. It's probably the best Ravenloft supplement, and one of the better D&D ones. 

As for Padrinola and the like, Will...well, something needn't be large scale to be cool. I think one of the best write-ups to come out of Termana was that on the Gray Isle, which is potentially one of the most low-key sections in the book. If anything, I find the more over the top something is, the greater the likelihood for logistic holes. 

Funny enough, one of the things that's most been irking me about Termana recently is the write-up on the Eternal Isle mentioning how the dragons and elves started mating to more quickly breed soldiers, claiming that the children age like half-elves. Which isn't how it works, particularly when the other half is, you know, a dragon...but...so it goes.


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## Nightfall (Feb 8, 2004)

Trick,

That was a little odd I'll grant you. But hey maybe dragons breed quicker with non dragons. Just an idea. 

Joe,

I pretty much mirror your own sentiments, save that I like the Charduni as it. They are just damn unlucky. The shaman aspect and the lack of focus is a little disconcerting, but it is as Will said, you have a lot of authors trying to fill the pot, and each one making it a little different in their own way. I will say this though, this is only Termana, not Ghelspad. So it tends to be a little easier to deal with in that respect. But then again it's not the greatest answer I'll grant you.

Will,

I do agree that probably the reason there's no mention of a shaman's core class is most likely not to add controversy. (Course they could mention OA shaman along side what they already did in Secrets.)


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## Will (Feb 8, 2004)

Er, I meant Silverisle... I did that writeup. 

Joe: By large scale, I don't mean flying castles and the like (though I like flying castles...). Just having more room to do stuff.

Me, I like fiddly bits, like local architecture. Though I have to be careful.  Too much of that can make people's eyes cross.


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## Trickstergod (Feb 8, 2004)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> Trick,
> 
> That was a little odd I'll grant you. But hey maybe dragons breed quicker with non dragons. Just an idea.




I'd figure a half-dragon would age more quickly than a dragon. That's just about a given. 

However, they certainly wouldn't age more quickly than the base race. A half-dragon/half-elf would age either as fast as a normal elf, or slower.


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## JoeGKushner (Feb 8, 2004)

Ah, the Gray Islands. What a cool little idea. A place of greatness brought low not by Titans, but by human treachery! However, it is one of those palces that bothered me with the white space and missing maps because right there on page 76-77, Emernis, City of Ashes has four little notes on it and a massive half page of white space where a city map probably should've been.

For the elves and dragons, I assumed upon the reading that they were grown magically, "brought swiftly to maturatity by their own natural growth and the magic of their parents." as opposed to just brought up naturally. I think that they gave a wink at the fact that the dragons did this in human form to give the children that 'false' parent maturity. In some ways it reminded me of that old crappy Spelljammer comic where a kid gets turned into a man or like Tom Hanks "Big". The kids can probably fight but would they be good for much else or know much else? MIght be easy to mess with.


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## Nightfall (Feb 8, 2004)

Trick,

True but maybe Joe is onto something. Maybe they magically age their children, something the half fiends and their fiendish fellows have yet to figure out.


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## Taelorn76 (Feb 9, 2004)

just a


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## Beholder Bob (Feb 9, 2004)

*Spell lists...*

Hello oh wise sage.  I need to obtain the spell list for new spells from R&R I & II.  Not the entire spells, just the new spell names and the mini-blurb that describes them.  I have the books, but I need to make a composite list for the players in my game.  Is any such list about?  Could you make one?


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## Nightfall (Feb 9, 2004)

Well give me a couple days, might have something for you. But as far as I know, no one else has made such a list.


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## Beholder Bob (Feb 9, 2004)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> Well give me a couple days, might have something for you. But as far as I know, no one else has made such a list.




Thank you very much   !

just assumed a list would be out there, but perhaps I'm more anal retentive then most.  I like all my data for gaming in files for easy manipulation.


B  b


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## Nightfall (Feb 9, 2004)

Bob,

No problem. I'll be happy to write up and send you the list.


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## Beholder Bob (Feb 9, 2004)

All Hail Nightfall!!!


Thank you very much - may all your crits be confirmed!

B  B


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## Nightfall (Feb 9, 2004)

I'll settle for converting my friend to the Scarred Lands. Damn heathen is still junked up on the D&D Mini game.  But it's not a problem Bob.


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## Piratecat (Feb 10, 2004)

Hey, here's a question for you. Given the tight cosmology of the Scarred Lands, do the racial Gods (such as Goran of the dwarves) feel a little awkward? They seem to open a whole can of worms; if dwarves have their own god, why not every other race? I'm a little divided on how I would deal with this, or whether it's better just to ignore the inconsistency.


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## Harlock (Feb 10, 2004)

P-kitty, it hasn't been stated, but I think all the divine races may have racial gods.  I don't really see a can of worms, however.  The racial gods are demigods.  The Gods are mostly alignment gods (to sum it up quite crudely) and the titanspawn, well they worship titans.


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## Nightfall (Feb 11, 2004)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Hey, here's a question for you. Given the tight cosmology of the Scarred Lands, do the racial Gods (such as Goran of the dwarves) feel a little awkward? They seem to open a whole can of worms; if dwarves have their own god, why not every other race? I'm a little divided on how I would deal with this, or whether it's better just to ignore the inconsistency.



Not necessarily. Each racial god (so far there are only four I can see) is just a kind of exemplar example of what the race should be about. Now not every race has a god. Some, like gnolls, follow ancestors or spirits, or even a crude form of Ushada(sp). Most are titan worshippers, since that's their nature. The Divine races, which basically covers the PHB, have the Eight Victors and then a few have their own racial gods. Gnomes are the exception to this rule, but by in large, mountain dwarves, dark and high/forsaken elves, and halflings are the only known racial gods I can think of off hand. Trogodon/Asaatthi don't count since the vast majority follow Mormo. As for why this happens, why did Christianity survive when it was just 12 guys and a few girls? Why did the Romans go from actively hating Christians and Jews to converting? It's one of this freakly little things that happens. Does it make sense? Not always. But remember, when you have racial gods, all of them are well below the power and awe that the Eight invoke. So unlike having Correllon and Pelor dance around each other, it's more like Correllon pays homage to Pelor who tells him how it is. And that's how it goes. The Eight were first born and this instance, it means a lot.


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## Death_Jester (Feb 11, 2004)

*Question about Dagger using rogue prestigue class.*

Hello Nightfall, 


I have a halfling rogue that uses the Dagger exclusivly and am now looking for a good prestigue class that can exploit his suprise attack ability.  Is there one in the books for the setting.  I have looked though Rangers and Rogues and didn't see anything that struck me as good but I would like to get the word of an expert on the subject. 

Thanks in advance. 
Jester.


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## Taelorn76 (Feb 11, 2004)

Check out the link in my Sig. It is a list of PrCs compiled by Nightfall.


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## JoeGKushner (Feb 11, 2004)

Ah, the good old knife fighter, one of my favorites.

Shelzar has a fighter based one.

Beyond Monks has one with a bit of a psycho feel to him.

Ultimate Prestige Classes 2 has that one and a new one.

Path of Shadow has a Legendary PrC, Jack o' Knives.

Complete Warrior by WotC has two, both 3-5 level ones I think.

Mercenaries, Born of Blood, has the Kurki fighter (odd dagger).

Master of Arms has a dagger specialist.

Hope that helps.


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## Nightfall (Feb 11, 2004)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> Check out the link in my Sig. It is a list of PrCs compiled by Nightfall.



At least the ones up to Blood Sea. I need to get that and I'll have that updated at least. But yes Shelzari Knife Fighter might be what you're looking for.


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## Death_Jester (Feb 11, 2004)

Thanks Guys, 


I will check out the Shelzari Knife Fighter as soon as possible.  I don't know if any of the ones from outside the Scarredlands material will be OK with the GM as he seems kind of focused on keeping things "Cannon".  But I will check out the other and see what they have to offer as well. 

Peace.


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## Harlock (Feb 12, 2004)

Wow, page three, Musn't have that...

So, does anyone remember my post from before about the ancestral weapon feats giving me an idea for epic level campaign?  I was hoping for more feedback on that from folks that have the Asaatthi book as well as those versed in Epic Level campaigns.  My basic premise is that the Magocracy of the Jewel out in the desert are pleased with the guardians.  They limit exploration and keep out folks.  Why?  Because inside is an ancestral weapon.  Not one of the minor ones, but a major one with some cool feats and demigod like power.  Thing is, this katana refuses to be wielded by the current Asaatthis since they've fallen so far from grace.  He considers the current plight of the Asaatthi an abomination.  So, would such a weapon call to potential allies?  Weak-minded Asaatthi or perhaps even, say High level adventurers to come in and wipe out most of the Asaatthi so the sword could take over what was left and shape them into his image of the past glory of the Asaatthi empire?  

It seems there are many angles in a story like this.  Should heroes engage in genocide?  What happens if the Asaatthi DO grow into a powerful race lead by a "chosen" warrior wielding a katana of godly might?  What if a player (BIG what if) were able to control the sword?  What if the sword were able to control a PC and start to twist him or her.  Surely a weapon of such power could be the basis for an Epic level campaign, but I am just not good with Epic Level play.  

Please, share you thoughts, ideas, even more angles and hooks if you wish.  All advice welcome.


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## Taelorn76 (Feb 12, 2004)

just giving this a much needed


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## Nightfall (Feb 12, 2004)

Harlock said:
			
		

> Wow, page three, Musn't have that...
> 
> So, does anyone remember my post from before about the ancestral weapon feats giving me an idea for epic level campaign? I was hoping for more feedback on that from folks that have the Asaatthi book as well as those versed in Epic Level campaigns. My basic premise is that the Magocracy of the Jewel out in the desert are pleased with the guardians. They limit exploration and keep out folks. Why? Because inside is an ancestral weapon. Not one of the minor ones, but a major one with some cool feats and demigod like power. Thing is, this katana refuses to be wielded by the current Asaatthis since they've fallen so far from grace. He considers the current plight of the Asaatthi an abomination. So, would such a weapon call to potential allies? Weak-minded Asaatthi or perhaps even, say High level adventurers to come in and wipe out most of the Asaatthi so the sword could take over what was left and shape them into his image of the past glory of the Asaatthi empire?
> 
> ...



My only advice Harlock, is firstly the blade would possibly call to potential allies. Possibly even Yuan-ti or some other Mormo brood. Mostly because the sword expects aid. It might even get it. As for the heroes, it's their own decisions in my view. Controlling an Ite of any caliber is difficult, one that possess ascendancy and possibly having Korratok(sp) Ite abilities even more so. As for epic level play, understand that while it's not supported it can be done in the Scarred Lands. Mostly if you have both the Knights of the Admanintine Church and Dar Al Annot involved as both have significiant interests. Add to that Calastia and Hollowfaust, you got some major stuff going down. I can't say I can offer you much more. Just let it play out. Trust your gut. That's my best advice.


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## Taelorn76 (Feb 14, 2004)

Which area specific (ie. Hallowfaust, Mithril, or others) book would you recomend as a good place to start?


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## Nightfall (Feb 14, 2004)

Well I do think that Shelzar is pretty well done. But Hollowfaust is by far the most flavorful of the lot.


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## JoeGKushner (Feb 14, 2004)

To me, Mithril has always been one of the best places to start a campaign. It has just about everything you could want.

1. Cult of the Golem: An interesting little side campiagn bit where people actually worship the Golem as opposed to Corean.

2. Pirates from the Blood Sea.

3. Mullis Town and other outlaying areas.

4. Adventure seeds and plans.

5. A Vigil Outlook so your rangers and paladins can combine forces.

6. A strong hatred in Mitrhil against those of the Penumbral Pentagon allowing you to tie in multiple sources into one city.

7. The Mithril Knight and the Coreanic Order of monks that use long swords.

Perhaps its just nostalgia because it was my first campiagn starter city for SL or my first game as a PC but I enjoy it.


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## Nightfall (Feb 14, 2004)

Got nothing against Mithril myself. I just like my home town and I like dead things. Plus final fortiture makes for getting rid of rowdy/unruly PCs quite well.


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## Fulcan (Feb 14, 2004)

*RRI Summoner*

I've posted this question on the Sword and Sworcery forums also, but I figure double coverage is always a good thing.

I'm contemplating taking levels in the Summoner class, but I noticed something a little funky about the class features. At first level the Summoner gets a metamagic feat that can only be used on her bonus summoning spell. She doesn't get that bonus summoning spell until second level. Therefore, that metamagic feat is useless.

Should it be that the metamagic feats granted by the summoner PrC should apply to all summoning spells? Or should the alternating bonus spell, metamagic feat pattern be reversed so that at first level she gets a bonus summoning spell instead?

-Fulcan


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## Nightfall (Feb 14, 2004)

I always thought the Summoner class needed rewording for a lot of reasons. This is another example of that. That being said, I think the best way to fix it is to reverse the bonus summoning spells and bonus feats. That's just my opinion. Personally I would have just fixed this Pr-class so that it was similar to Demonologist in BoVD or Diabolist.


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## Fulcan (Feb 15, 2004)

I think switching them is the right way to go, too.  I'm also intrested in re-writing the PrC a bit so I'll definitely have a look at the Demonologist.  

Thanks!


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## Nightfall (Feb 15, 2004)

Glad I could help.


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## Golem2176 (Feb 15, 2004)

What is the point of buying the campaign books if all you are looking for is inspiration? I already own the Ghelspad campaign book, but nothing truly appealed to my interests. Why should I buy the Termana campaign guide?


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## dreaded_beast (Feb 15, 2004)

First of all, let me apologize if my questions have already been answered earlier in the thread, I just didn't want to scan through all the pages. 

1. What are the changes to the core classes if any? If you can't get into the specifics, can you direct me to which books have that info?

2. I want to play a character with a "dark" background, something along the lines of being "tainted" by fiends, either demons or devils. Is there any interesting location, area, or part of the history in Scarred Lands that I can incorporate with that of my character's background?


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## Nightfall (Feb 15, 2004)

Golem2176 said:
			
		

> What is the point of buying the campaign books if all you are looking for is inspiration? I already own the Ghelspad campaign book, but nothing truly appealed to my interests. Why should I buy the Termana campaign guide?



Well you can check out the reviews by good ole Joe Kushner and our own Trick to determine if you want it. Here are those reviews: Joe Kushner and TricksterGod/Trick

Hope that helps. My own opinion, get them if you want a more "Savage" Lost world kind of feel. Plus the Jungles of Termana are kind of fun.  



			
				dreaded_beast said:
			
		

> First of all, let me apologize if my questions have already been answered earlier in the thread, I just didn't want to scan through all the pages.



Understandable. I am considering closing this thread when we reach ten pages. (Just figure why keep drawn out?)  



			
				dreaded_beast said:
			
		

> 1. What are the changes to the core classes if any? If you can't get into the specifics, can you direct me to which books have that info?



Well there aren't THAT many changes per say as much as "flavor" I will say the Player's Guides do a good job of giving ideas and understandings to each of the 11 core classes. But overall a fighter is still a fighter (he just now has schools of training), a rogue is still a rogue (just with a better understanding of the laws and how to get around them). Clerics...well depends on the gods and such but they still are servants of divine powers. And Wizards...well they cast spells, and learn by rote/spell knowledge. The other classes...well it goes like this. Druids don't serve gods. They serve the world and use it towards their own ends. Some view this by the fact the Titans are powers of nature given shape, form and sentience. Rangers are druids with a little less natural training but some do follow the gods. Paladins, quite frankly, are servants of gods but they also have codes and understandings. Most just prefer Corean or if they serve Madriel or Hedrada, they still pay homage to him and their other god. Monks believe in the perfection by uniting body and soul to a particular ideal or aesthec understanding. Sorcerers, for the most part, ARE power given flesh and often are the spiritual leaders as much as druids for titanspawn. Even so there are other powers, such as celestial, fey-touched and even just draconic sorcerers. Bards...well they are often the odd man out but they still play music and believe in composing epics to show case either their own worth or that of their companions and thus live vicaciously through those works. Barbarians are spiritual warriors but channel the rage and understanding of the natural world.

Does that help? 



			
				dreaded_beast said:
			
		

> 2. I want to play a character with a "dark" background, something along the lines of being "tainted" by fiends, either demons or devils. Is there any interesting location, area, or part of the history in Scarred Lands that I can incorporate with that of my character's background?



Well sure. The Obsidin Pyre is a very, VERY secretive group of summoners that have made pacts with the Daemon Princes of the Blackest Pits of Belsameth. They have a nice place there in the Stricken Woods. So there's one option for you. More I'll think up in a minute.


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## dreaded_beast (Feb 16, 2004)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> Well there aren't THAT many changes per say as much as "flavor" I will say the Player's Guides do a good job of giving ideas and understandings to each of the 11 core classes. But overall a fighter is still a fighter (he just now has schools of training), a rogue is still a rogue (just with a better understanding of the laws and how to get around them). Clerics...well depends on the gods and such but they still are servants of divine powers. And Wizards...well they cast spells, and learn by rote/spell knowledge. The other classes...well it goes like this. Druids don't serve gods. They serve the world and use it towards their own ends. Some view this by the fact the Titans are powers of nature given shape, form and sentience. Rangers are druids with a little less natural training but some do follow the gods. Paladins, quite frankly, are servants of gods but they also have codes and understandings. Most just prefer Corean or if they serve Madriel or Hedrada, they still pay homage to him and their other god. Monks believe in the perfection by uniting body and soul to a particular ideal or aesthec understanding. Sorcerers, for the most part, ARE power given flesh and often are the spiritual leaders as much as druids for titanspawn. Even so there are other powers, such as celestial, fey-touched and even just draconic sorcerers. Bards...well they are often the odd man out but they still play music and believe in composing epics to show case either their own worth or that of their companions and thus live vicaciously through those works. Barbarians are spiritual warriors but channel the rage and understanding of the natural world.
> 
> Does that help?




Yes, somewhat, thanks. Mind giving the names of the Player's Guides for the appropriate class? Is it akin to Relics and Rituals?

When you say flavor, is just flavor, or are there actually game mechanics involved? In other words, game mechanics-wise, are they exactly the same with no changes, except that the "descriptive" text for the class is different? I understand you probably cannot say that fighters get this at 1st level, this at 2nd, etc.



> Well sure. The Obsidin Pyre is a very, VERY secretive group of summoners that have made pacts with the Daemon Princes of the Blackest Pits of Belsameth. They have a nice place there in the Stricken Woods. So there's one option for you. More I'll think up in a minute.




That sounds great! Can you tell me what book I may find more info on this?


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## Taelorn76 (Feb 16, 2004)

There are 5 Players Guides available. 

"Players Guide to Clerics and Druids"
"Players Guide to Fighters and Barbarians"
"Players Guide to Monks and Paladins"
"Players Guide to Rangers and Rogues"
"Players Guide to Wizards, Bards and Sorcerers"

You can also find info on the Obsidian Pyre in chapter 5 of Ghelspad book. I think they also mention it in Player's Guide to Wizards, Bards and Sorcerer, but I am not sure because I don't own it.


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## eryndel (Feb 16, 2004)

dreaded_beast said:
			
		

> Yes, somewhat, thanks. Mind giving the names of the Player's Guides for the appropriate class? Is it akin to Relics and Rituals?
> 
> When you say flavor, is just flavor, or are there actually game mechanics involved? In other words, game mechanics-wise, are they exactly the same with no changes, except that the "descriptive" text for the class is different? I understand you probably cannot say that fighters get this at 1st level, this at 2nd, etc.



Except for that arcane spellcasters create heat when they cast spells, there aren't any real mechanical differences inherently between Scarred Lands classes and PHB classes.  However, there are feats to represent different "flavor" aspects of the Scarred Lands.  Sorcerers (really just PHB Sorcerers) have access to a set of scion feats which represent their breeding and give them increased capability for casting certain spells while also requiring the sorcerer to learn those same spells.  Druids can take certain feats (Primal feats?  I still haven't received my copy of Clerics and Druids) that represent abilities gained from different titanic Epochs.  A lot of these additions you'll find in the various players guides.  The Scarred Lands really more builds on the core rulebooks instead of changing them.

Hope this helps,
Werner


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## Nightfall (Feb 16, 2004)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> You can also find info on the Obsidian Pyre in chapter 5 of Ghelspad book. I think they also mention it in Player's Guide to Wizards, Bards and Sorcerer, but I am not sure because I don't own it.



They are mentioned in the wizard section but yes. 

Werner,

It is primal feats. There are also Virtue feats for paladins, Martial Arts feats for Monks, both druids and barbarians can get Totem feats. (Actually probably a lot of other classes could but those seem the most appropriate), Scion feats for Sorcerers. Tradition feats for Bards and Miracle feats for clerics. (They are obviously more clerical oriented but pretty similar to divine feats.) 


db,

Like Werner said, other than arcane heat for sorcerers and wizards, there are no game mechanic differences to the classes. Arcane heat is just an aspect to make casting in armor more difficult as well as have a good reason for half naked female arcane spellcasters. Bards don't generate arcane heat, but that's mostly because they cast with songs. 

Also there is a feat that sorcerers can take to let them get more "demonic" pact stuff called Sorcerous pact. That's in PG: Wizards, Bards and Sorcerers. In fact that book details a good bit about evil outsiders. Other than PG: Clerics and Druids, those two books are the best at focusing on evil outsiders. (The PG: Paladins and Monks do mention outsiders but not at the same degree I think you'd enjoy PG: Wizards, Bards and Sorcerers). 

Hope that was helpful.


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## Nightfall (Feb 16, 2004)

All this talk of fiends just makes me THAT much more anxious for Edge of Infinity.


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## Taelorn76 (Feb 16, 2004)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> All this talk of fiends just makes me THAT much more anxious for Edge of Infinity.




When is that due out?


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## Nightfall (Feb 16, 2004)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> When is that due out?



Any changes in the Release Schedule, some time in May. 

Echoes of the Past, again if no changes are made in the schedules, is slated for March 1st. 

Between those times, Relics and Rituals: Excaliber and d20 Advanced Compendium are the only April releases on the S&SS calender. Even though they aren't Scarred Lands material.


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## dreaded_beast (Feb 16, 2004)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> They are mentioned in the wizard section but yes.
> 
> Werner,
> 
> ...




YES! Thanks! You've pretty much given me all I need to know to get a feel for the setting. I just joined a new gaming group and we have decided to play in the Scarred Lands setting, because the DM and the other player have wanted to play it for some time. I didn't really know much about it, but I'm willing to give it a try. The information you have given me has been very helpful.


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## Nightfall (Feb 17, 2004)

Glad everyone here, myself included, could help. Anyway time to close this thread.


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## eryndel (Feb 17, 2004)

Wonder if I'll get the last post?    

Oh, and Edge is out of edit now and it's probably in layout or somewhere along the way. Soon.

Werner


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## Altamont Ravenard (Feb 17, 2004)

aHA in before the close!

AR


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## Hypersmurf (Feb 17, 2004)

I bet I'll be the last message before the close 

Clunk.

-Hyp.
(Moderator)


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