# Keep on the Shadowfell preview



## thalmin

Just got the store preview copy of Keep on the Shadowfell
 The included pregens are:
Dwarf Fighter: Maul (2-handed), dagger, Scale mail
Halfling Rogue: Daggers, leather
Human Wizard: Quarterstaff, wand
Half-Elf Cleric: Mace, crowwsbow, Chain Mail
Dragonborn Paladin: Longsword, javelin, Heavy Plate, Heavy Shield


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## Nahat Anoj

thalmin said:
			
		

> Just got the store preview copy of Keep on the Shadowfell
> The included pregens are:
> Dwarf Fighter: Maul (2-handed), dagger, Scale mail
> Halfling Rogue: Daggers, leather
> Human Wizard: Quarterstaff, wand
> Half-Elf Cleric: Mace, crowwsbow, Chain Mail
> Dragonborn Paladin: Longsword, javelin, Heavy Plate, Heavy Shield



Give us more ...  we wants it ...


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## thalmin

The adventure is an 80 page book, including front cover. Full color throughout, includes small shots of poster maps as encounter keys. Also includes a couple of non-tactical maps (like a map of the area, map of a walled village.)

The 3 double-sided poster maps cover dungeon and wilderness encounter areas.

The Quick-Start Rules booklet is 16 pages, including front cover. Ten pages are the pregens, which include level-up info for 2nd and 3rd levels. The other 5 pages are pretty much what we have seen from the DDXP demos.


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## TerraDave

hmm, 5 pages of rules...assuming some is embeded in the pregens, and some in the adventure itself?


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## OchreJelly

Ooooh, new pregens.  Can you post details or no?  I don't really need any spoilers on the adventure, except maybe what the adventure hooks are so I can plan ahead.


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## Ashrem Bayle

A few quick questions:

What is the sex of the pregens?

Could you give us a list of monsters (spoiler them) so we can start gathering the minis we'll need?


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## Ashrem Bayle

TerraDave said:
			
		

> hmm, 5 pages of rules...assuming some is embeded in the pregens, and some in the adventure itself?



Seconded


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## Mathew_Freeman

thalmin said:
			
		

> Just got the store preview copy of Keep on the Shadowfell
> The included pregens are:
> Dwarf Fighter: Maul (2-handed), dagger, Scale mail
> Halfling Rogue: Daggers, leather
> Human Wizard: Quarterstaff, wand
> Half-Elf Cleric: Mace, crowwsbow, Chain Mail
> Dragonborn Paladin: Longsword, javelin, Heavy Plate, Heavy Shield




I just want to say "Ooooh! Dragonborn!"

And a two-handed maul - that's got to have some fun powers attached to it.


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## thalmin

Yes, rules are embedded in the adventure. There is a chart for Attack Modifiers, a page of combat conditions, 2 pages on using skills and DCs including nearly a fulll column on Knowledge Skills. (By the way, Intimidate is against the target's Will defense).


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## thalmin

Space provided to fill in the Pregen's name and gender.


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## Daniel D. Fox

Any chance you can share the full statblock and abilities of the pre-gen character sheets?


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## Baumi

Are there many new powers and are the characters very different from the XP-Pregens or are they only slight variatons?


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## rhm001

Are the racial benefits made clear, or just incorporated into the sheets in the same way as the earlier preview characters? (I'm particularly interested in what the half-elf multiclass abilities are; does it look like they picked up a cross class power and a cross class "at will as encounter" power, or just the "at will as encounter" power?)


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## Rechan

Sounds like the fighter went Two handed, not SuperSticky.


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## Xethreau

Moniker said:
			
		

> Any chance you can share the full statblock and abilities of the pre-gen character sheets?



This would make me a happy person indeed!  Particularly for the dragonborn!


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## thalmin

rhm001 said:
			
		

> Are the racial benefits made clear, or just incorporated into the sheets in the same way as the earlier preview characters? (I'm particularly interested in what the half-elf multiclass abilities are; does it look like they picked up a cross class power and a cross class "at will as encounter" power, or just the "at will as encounter" power?)



Racial benefits are built into the characters, some are listed.
Dragonborn gets Dragonborn Fury, Draconic Heritage, and Dragon Breath (Encounter Power - Minor Action - Blast 3 - +4 vs Reflex - 1d6 + 1 damage.)


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## thalmin

Baumi said:
			
		

> Are there many new powers and are the characters very different from the XP-Pregens or are they only slight variatons?



Characters seem to be different. Aside from Dwarf Fighter, the race-class combos are different, and some of the powers are different than those chosen for XP.


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## ShinRyuuBR

Have you by chance observed what the WEAKENED condition entails?


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## thalmin

ShinRyuuBR said:
			
		

> Have you by chance observed what the WEAKENED condition entails?



From the chart:



> *Weakened*
> Your attacks deal half damage.
> Ongoing damage you deal is not affected


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## Ebon Shar

I know I don't have to ask, but I will anyway.  Please don't post spoilers about the adventure.  I want to keep reading this thread, but I don't want to see any details that I don't need to see.  Thanks.


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## RandomCitizenX

Does the half-elf have any powers or class feature from another class?


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## Bishmon

What is Draconic Heritage? The eagle-eyed posted who discovered most of the dragonborn abilities from a photo in a newspaper wasn't quite able to make out what it did.

Also, any new feats we haven't seen?

And anything about the powers or other class abilities would be great. I'd love to see them all, but that probably isn't practical. Anything jump out?


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## WhatGravitas

Has the wizard _prestidigitation_ and if yes, is it a) as good, as Keith Baker has told us and is it b) at will?

Cheers, LT.


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## Kahoots

Just a couple of thoughts:

 They are including the classic four classes in this adventure.
 The Cleric is the only non-thrown ranged attacker.
 They included two Defenders.

In regards to   , do you think having the Cleric in the back row will potentially hurt the party?

In regards to   , do you think that this is the optimal build for a party?


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## thalmin

How do you do spoiler tags.


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## Rechan

Kahoots said:
			
		

> The Cleric is the only non-thrown ranged attacker.



The XP cleric had access to Lance of Faith, which is a decent ranged power.


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## Rechan

It also annoys me we havn't seen the Warlord at all. And I was hoping for a Warlock.


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## Rechan

thalmin said:
			
		

> How do you do spoiler tags.



sblock   /sblock

put those in between [ brackets.


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## Kahoots

Rechan said:
			
		

> It also annoys me we havn't seen the Warlord at all. And I was hoping for a Warlock.



I've been itching to see the Warlord myself.


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## thalmin

Lord Tirian said:
			
		

> Has the wizard _prestidigitation_ and if yes, is it a) as good, as Keith Baker has told us and is it b) at will?
> 
> Cheers, LT.



No Prestidigitation, sorry.


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## lightblade

Well, we get to see a Rogue, at least.  The only thing that's currently stopping us from playing a rogue is the lack of a Daily power; would you mind posting the one that the rogue gets?


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## Rechan

Just post the pre-gens wholesale. That'll solve everything!  

(Also, give us the 2-3 level ones!)

I'm not asking much.


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## Ashrem Bayle

thalmin said:
			
		

> How do you do spoiler tags.




Type your text. With [spoiler*] before the text and [/spoiler*] afterwards. Remove the "*". I added it so I could type the above without it spoilering it. 

So and example would be:

[spoiler*] Monster List [/spoiler*] 

Minus the "*"s.


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## thalmin

Ashrem Bayle said:
			
		

> Could you give us a list of monsters (spoiler them) so we can start gathering the minis we'll need?



I will give this a try. The list includes the maximum number needed at one time, some figures are used for more than one encounter.

[sblock]Kobolds:
10 Minions
3 Skirmishers
2 Dragonshields
1 Slinger
1 Wyrmpriest

Goblins:
5 Warriors
3 Goblin Sharpshooters
8 Goblin Cutters
1 fat goblin


2 Guard Drakes
4 Human Rabble
1 Gnome
1 Halfling Slinger
1 Rat Swarm
1 Hobgoblin Torturer
10 Zombie Rotters
4 Zombies
2 Skeleton Warriors
12 Decrepit Skeletons
1 Skeleton Knight
13 Giant Rats
1 Ochre Jelly
1 Large Blue Slime
1 Kruthik Adult
3 Kruthik Young
6 Kruthik Hatchlings
1 Elf Archer[/sblock]
I think I got them all.

edit: Missed a whole level. These are for the last section, some are duplicates of the above

[sblock]1 Hobgoblin warcaster
4 Hobgoblin soldiers
2 Hobgoblin archers
5 Hobgoblin Grunts
1 Hobgoblin Warchief
1 Deathjump Spider
2 Corruption Corpses
1 Gelatinous Cube
1 Ghoul
12 Zombie Rotters
2 Zombies
1 Clay Scout
1 Orcus Underpriest
1 Dark Creeper
2 Human Berserkers
5 Vampire Spawn
1 Human in hvy armor with skull-capped rod
2 Skeleton Warriors
1 Deathlock wight[/sblock]

Please use spoiler tags if you are going to talk about these.

Looks like I missed another
[sblock]2 Gravehound Zombies (zombie dogs)[/sblock]


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## Gargazon

Little does Thalmin know what he has unleashed...

The others will get here soon, drawn by the smell of spoilers and new crunch... it will be a massacre! RUN WHILE YOU CAN!!!

Edit: Nevermind the request that was here. OOooo, Kruthiks!


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## malraux

If you don't mind, can you post general impressions of the adventure?  Is it just a string of rooms with monsters, or is there a decent adventure?  I don't care about a detailed review, just a basic good/not good impression.

Oh and are they using the delve format for the encounters?


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## Ashrem Bayle

thalmin said:
			
		

> I will give this a try. The list includes the maximum number needed at one time, some figures are used for more than one encounter.
> 
> [sblock]Kobolds:
> 10 Minions
> 3 Skirmishers
> 2 Dragonshields
> 1 Slinger
> 1 Wyrmpriest
> 
> Goblins:
> 5 Warriors
> 3 Goblin Sharpshooters
> 8 Goblin Cutters
> 1 fat goblin
> 
> 
> 2 Guard Drakes
> 4 Human Rabble
> 1 Gnome
> 1 Halfling Slinger
> 1 Rat Swarm
> 1 Hobgoblin Torturer
> 10 Zombie Rotters
> 4 Zombies
> 2 Skeleton Warriors
> 12 Decrepit Skeletons
> 1 Skeleton Knight
> 13 Giant Rats
> 1 Ochre Jelly
> 1 Large Blue Slime
> 1 Kruthik Adult
> 3 Kruthik Young
> 6 Kruthik Hatchlings
> 1 Elf Archer[/sblock]
> I think I got them all.




My hero!

Have minis for all of the 



Spoiler



Kruthiks


 been released? And what's a 



Spoiler



guard drake?


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## Cirex

My questions (answer just if you want):

-Is initiative affected by level? (1/2 level bonus).
-What is the daily power for rogues?
-Is there anything about rituals?
-The 16 pages ruleset thingy, does it include something that we had no clue about?

Thanks and enjoy the game


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## Kahoots

Gargazon said:
			
		

> RUN WHILE YOU CAN!!!



Oh, too true. People are going to want stat blocks for the entire list of monsters that he just listed.


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## Kahoots

Ashrem Bayle said:
			
		

> And what's a
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> guard drake?



[sblock]It's like a guard dog, but more lizardy.  [/sblock]


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## Rechan

Odd. He didn't list a villain.

[sblock]Ooh, ooze and slime!

ZOMBIES! [/sblock]

Edit: spoke too soon.


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## Kahoots

Rechan said:
			
		

> Odd. He didn't list a villain.
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Ooh, ooze and slime!



Check his post again. He's updated it.

[sblock]A human with a skull-capped rod seems villiany to me[/sblock]


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## Kitirat

*Pre-gens only please*

For this thread, could ya post the stats (or much better scans) of the 5 pregens, at the least at 1st level?  Put the monsters and adventure impressions in another thread not called pregens.

And for the love of god post them already, I'm dying here!   

Thanks,
Ken


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## Baumi

Does the damage increase every two levels?


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## Verys Arkon

*sniff sniff*

Hmmm, smells crunchy in here.


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## Kahoots

Verys Arkon said:
			
		

> *sniff sniff*
> 
> Hmmm, smells crunchy in here.



Yeah! We're talking Cap'n Crunch with some gravel on top.


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## MindWanderer

And good that he didn't.

Rather than posting specific material (like stats and powers) that are protected under copyright, can you post generalizations that can be inferred from the module?  Such as how half-elf multiclassing works, and what the dragonborn features actually do?


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## thalmin

I added a group of encounters I missed the first time.
I don't have time to do the stat blocks, but you can come in and see the adventure, we will have it on display, and this should be at your FLGS, especially if they are a Premiere Store with WotC. (Allow maybe a day or so for delivery. We got ours just minutes before my first post.)


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## AZRogue

Is this where we jump on one guy until he spends the next few days typing out answers to every question we can come up with on pain of waterboarding? I got automatic text message that told me this was the place. I heard there would also be punch and pie.


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## Rechan

AZRogue said:
			
		

> Is this where we jump on one guy until he spends the next few days typing out answers to every question we can come up with on pain of waterboarding?



Ding ding ding.



> I got automatic text message that told me this was the place. I heard there would also be punch orc and pie.



FIFY.


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## thalmin

Baumi said:
			
		

> Does the damage increase every two levels?



Not that I see. Attacks, defenses, initiative, and skill check modifiers increase every even level (ie at level 2)


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## malraux

thalmin said:
			
		

> Not that I see. Attacks, defenses, initiative, and skill check modifiers increase every even level (ie at level 2)



A-Ha!  I figured the 1/2 level in damage was out.

Oooo, how about magic items?  Or rituals?


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## phil500

Gargazon said:
			
		

> Little does Thalmin know what he has unleashed...
> 
> The others will get here soon, drawn by the smell of spoilers and new crunch... it will be a massacre! RUN WHILE YOU CAN!!!
> 
> Edit: Nevermind the request that was here. OOooo, Kruthiks!




thalamin only has 2 options- delete his account, or upload the pdf.  neither is a good one.\

thal thx for the info


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## ppaladin123

I'd like to know how they fixed the paladin's divine challenge ability. Do you see it there?


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## thalmin

Due to copyright, I don't think I would be allowed to scan the pregens, or any other part of this product.


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## Rechan

Just to make a list of the most frequent or pressing/new questions:

Half-elf multi-classing. Tell tell tell tell!
Dragonborn racial abilities (aside from the breath); Fury and the... otherone I forget.
Wizard spells - any new ones? 
Rogue daily?
Any new feats?


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## Cam Banks

thalmin said:
			
		

> Due to copyright, I don't think I would be allowed to scan the pregens, or any other part of this product.




I think that's a very sensible assumption to make.

Cheers,
Cam


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## Boarstorm

thalmin said:
			
		

> Due to copyright, I don't think I would be allowed to scan the pregens, or any other part of this product.




Do hazy cell phone camera pictures count?


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## thalmin

MindWanderer said:
			
		

> And good that he didn't.
> 
> Rather than posting specific material (like stats and powers) that are protected under copyright, can you post generalizations that can be inferred from the module?  Such as how half-elf multiclassing works, and what the dragonborn features actually do?



I don't see any of the half-elf multiclassing yet, also no rituals.


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## WhatGravitas

thalmin said:
			
		

> I don't see any of the half-elf multiclassing yet, also no rituals.



No rituals? Aww.... I get the impression of: "The cake ritual is a lie!" 

But seriously, thanks for sharing these titbits with us! 

Cheers, LT.


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## rhm001

I'm trying to be helpful here, rather than repetitive, so I apologize if I'm asking for something you've already looked for and not seen.

Do the powers list the class like they did on the earlier sheets? I know last time the half-elf Warlock had Ray of Frost and it was identified as a Wizard spell on the sheet. Do any of the Cleric's powers list another class? Or is the power display format different?


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## thalmin

Rechan said:
			
		

> Just to make a list of the most frequent or pressing/new questions:
> 
> Half-elf multi-classing. Tell tell tell tell!
> Dragonborn racial abilities (aside from the breath); Fury and the... otherone I forget.
> Wizard spells - any new ones?
> Rogue daily?
> Any new feats?



_Half-elf _ nothing I could see.
_Dragonborn Fury:_ When you're bloodied, you gain a +1 racial bonus to attack rolls
_Draconic Heritage:_ Your Healing Surge value is equal to one-quarter of you maximum hit points *+ your Constitution modifier.* 
_Wizard Spells:_ Expeditious Retreat (Wizard Utility 2) Daily
Fire Shroud (Wizard Attack 3) Encounter
_Rogue Daily:_ *Trick Strike* 
Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee or Ranged weapon
Target one creature
Attack +8 vs AC (normal)
Hit 3d4+4 damage, and you can slide the target 1 square. (standard is 1d4+1 for character)
Effect: Until the end of the encounter, each time you hit the target you can slide it 1 square.


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## Cirex

Thanks a lot *thalmin*, for all this information.


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## thalmin

rhm001 said:
			
		

> I'm trying to be helpful here, rather than repetitive, so I apologize if I'm asking for something you've already looked for and not seen.
> 
> Do the powers list the class like they did on the earlier sheets? I know last time the half-elf Warlock had Ray of Frost and it was identified as a Wizard spell on the sheet. Do any of the Cleric's powers list another class? Or is the power display format different?



That's what I looked for. Nothing.


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## Rechan

All this looks superkeen.

Thanks a bunch.  You're great for putting up with us.


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## Sojorn

thalmin said:
			
		

> _Rogue Daily:_ *Trick Strike*
> Martial, Weapon
> Standard Action Melee or Ranged weapon
> Target one creature
> Attack +8 vs AC (normal)
> Hit 3d4+4 damage, and you can slide the target 1 square. (standard is 1d4+1 for character)
> Effect: Until the end of the encounter, each time you hit the target you can slide it 1 square.



!!!!!!

Ranged? Long live the throwing dagger rogue!


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## Gargazon

thalmin said:
			
		

> _Draconic Heritage:_ Your Healing Surge value is equal to one-quarter of you maximum hit points *+ your Constitution modifier.*




My first character just became a Dragonborn.


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## Rechan

Sojorn said:
			
		

> !!!!!!
> 
> Ranged? Long live the throwing dagger rogue!



Shuriken damage is upped a die for rogues. So I'm hoping their damage is possibly higher than a thrown dagger.


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## Kahoots

Sojorn said:
			
		

> Ranged? Long live the throwing dagger rogue!



I just was imagining some rogue using a pebble as a ranged weapon and knocking the dragon back a square.


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## Rechan

Kahoots said:
			
		

> I just was imagining some rogue using a pebble as a ranged weapon and knocking the dragon back a square.



With a sling, I can see that. Or a good ol' rock. 

I want to know about the 



Spoiler



zombies


. But I can wait.


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## Gargazon

Sojorn said:
			
		

> !!!!!!
> 
> Ranged? Long live the throwing dagger rogue!




I guess this kills concerns about Rogues being shoehorned into melee combat with light blades.

Wait... there's no weapon type restriction either!?


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## Primal

Kahoots said:
			
		

> Check his post again. He's updated it.
> 
> [sblock]A human with a skull-capped rod seems villiany to me[/sblock]




I wonder if they did a mini for him? I *think* I saw a 4E mini called "A Human With a Skull-Capped Rod" in MM, though. He was right next to the "A Human Wearing a Black Hooded Cloak and Wielding a White Quarterstaff [not to confused with "An Elf Wearing a Green Hooded Cloak and a Black Longbow", MM Page 256]. ;P

Maybe they should have come up with a name for him, or even some sort of silly exception-based "type" (e.g. "Human Skullwand Arcanist").


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## thalmin

Rechan said:
			
		

> With a sling, I can see that. Or a good ol' rock.
> 
> I want to know about the [sblock]zombies[/sblock]. But I can wait.



Please use the spoiler tag, (sblock) (/sblock) but use [ instead of (


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## ppaladin123

So what about the paladin's divine challenge ability? How did they fix it?


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## Bishmon

thalmin said:
			
		

> _Draconic Heritage:_ Your Healing Surge value is equal to one-quarter of you maximum hit points *+ your Constitution modifier.*



I wonder if that includes the +1/2 level like skill check modifiers, because if it doesn't, that ability peaks at level one and loses effectiveness until it's mostly irrelevant in the mid-paragon tier.

If it does scale with level, though, that's nice.


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## thalmin

Primal said:
			
		

> I wonder if they did a mini for him? I *think* I saw a 4E mini called [sblock]"A Human With a Skull-Capped Rod" [/sblock]in MM, though. He was right next to the "A Human Wearing a Black Hooded Cloak and Wielding a White Quarterstaff [not to confused with "An Elf Wearing a Green Hooded Cloak and a Black Longbow", MM Page 256]. ;P
> 
> Maybe they should have come up with a name for him, or even some sort of silly exception-based "type" (e.g. [sblock]"Human Skullwand Arcanist")[/sblock].



Actually they did. [sblock] Kalarel, Scion of Orcus [/sblock]
Please use spoilers.


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## Kahoots

Primal said:
			
		

> I wonder if they did a mini for him? I *think* I saw a 4E mini called "A Human With a Skull-Capped Rod" in MM, though. He was right next to the "A Human Wearing a Black Hooded Cloak and Wielding a White Quarterstaff [not to confused with "An Elf Wearing a Green Hooded Cloak and a Black Longbow", MM Page 256].



Don't spoil it! They are the BBEGs for H2 and H3! Shh! [/sarcasm]


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## Kordeth

Bishmon said:
			
		

> I wonder if that includes the +1/2 level like skill check modifiers, because if it doesn't, that ability peaks at level one and loses effectiveness until it's mostly irrelevant in the mid-paragon tier.
> 
> If it does scale with level, though, that's nice.




Ability modifiers don't scale with level. You add 1/2 your level to ability *checks.* Nevertheless, with hit point totals being much more tightly controlled, and pretty frequent ability boosts, this ability is never going to be irrelevant--depending on your class and Con, it might be anywhere from 1/2 a level's worth of hit points to a whole level's worth added to all of your healing surges. Not bad for something you get automatically and for free.


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## SeRiAlExPeRiMeNtS

And the minions, any of them have HPs?


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## thalmin

SeRiAlExPeRiMeNtS said:
			
		

> And the minions, some of them have HPs?



Minions here have a line


> HP 1; a missed attack never damages a minion.


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## SoulsFury

Any chance for a short description of Winterhaven and the surrounding areas? How far away the keep is and what kinda terrain so I can plan the area accordingly for my homebrew world?


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## Scribble

thalmin said:
			
		

> Minions here have a line




If that line is ever anything more then "COBRA!!!!*" then they are no longer minions. (they move up to goons.)



* or an equivalent one word catch phraze


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## Rechan

Scribble said:
			
		

> If that line is ever anything more then "COBRA!!!!*" then they are no longer minions. (they move up to goons.)
> 
> 
> 
> * or an equivalent one word catch phraze



How about mooks?


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## Scribble

Rechan said:
			
		

> How about mooks?




they charge too much. fiscal responsability man!


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## Cirex

Scribble said:
			
		

> If that line is ever anything more then "COBRA!!!!*" then they are no longer minions. (they move up to goons.)
> 
> 
> 
> * or an equivalent one word catch phraze




If anyone remembers the Power Rangers, those grey-dressed useless minions...how were they called in English?
In Spanish they are called "masillas", and we've been using that term for ages when talking about minions and similar "scum".


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## Kahoots

Cirex said:
			
		

> If anyone remembers the Power Rangers, those grey-dressed useless minions...how were they called in English?
> In Spanish they are called "masillas", and we've been using that term for ages when talking about minions and similar "scum".



Weren't  they the Putty Patrol? AKA the Putties?

Ok, way to much tv for me when I was a kid...


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## Rechan

Dang, ninja'd!


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## Seule

I have only one complaint.
Only 5 characters? I guess two of my players are doubling up, as I have 6 players ready to go as soon as I get my hands on this.

  --Penn


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## Rechan

Seule said:
			
		

> I have only one complaint.
> Only 5 characters? I guess two of my players are doubling up, as I have 6 players ready to go as soon as I get my hands on this.
> 
> --Penn



You could substitute one of the DDXP characters. Or at least let them swithc to powers from there. 

For instance, there's no Warlock or Ranger.


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## thalmin

SoulsFury said:
			
		

> Any chance for a short description of Winterhaven and the surrounding areas? How far away the keep is and what kinda terrain so I can plan the area accordingly for my homebrew world?



Winterhaven is a small walled village, population 977. Town consists of 11 buildings plus a half-dozen houses, plus a number of small thatch-roofed homes in the surroundings.


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## Gargazon

Edit: Nevermind, I got ninja'd.


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## Dragonblade

How did they fix the paladin's mark?


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## baberg

I have no questions for you*, but I just wanted to give a huge *THANK YOU* to Thalmin for giving us this information.  You're the best 

_*actually I have a thousand questions, but I'll refrain from asking them because I know I won't be satisfied until I read the whole adventure anyways_


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## Dragonblade

Any new mechanics or rules we haven't see yet or gotten wrong?


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## Erekose13

Are the encounters built using the horrible delve format of the late 3.5 adventures?


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## pukunui

baberg said:
			
		

> I have no questions for you*, but I just wanted to give a huge *THANK YOU* to Thalmin for giving us this information.  You're the best
> 
> _*actually I have a thousand questions, but I'll refrain from asking them because I know I won't be satisfied until I read the whole adventure anyways_



 I'll second that!


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## thalmin

Seule said:
			
		

> I have only one complaint.
> Only 5 characters? I guess two of my players are doubling up, as I have 6 players ready to go as soon as I get my hands on this.
> 
> --Penn



I would suggest the Warlock pregen from the demos, since this groups contains no warlock. I would also add a level 1 monster of the listed types to each encounter to balance them. I did not see anything in the adventure book to scale up or down for larger or smaller parties.


----------



## Kahoots

pukunui said:
			
		

> I'll second that!



Thirded!


----------



## jelmore

According to one account, there are supposed to be two Eberron-specific pregens in the section for adapting to fit Eberron.

Are they just variations on the existing pregens, or are they new?


----------



## malraux

jelmore said:
			
		

> According to one account, there are supposed to be two Eberron-specific pregens in the section for adapting to fit Eberron.
> 
> Are they just variations on the existing pregens, or are they new?



I think that'll be in the DDI.


----------



## Sojorn

jelmore said:
			
		

> According to one account, there are supposed to be two Eberron-specific pregens in the section for adapting to fit Eberron.
> 
> Are they just variations on the existing pregens, or are they new?



Those are coming in the DDI preview as far as I know.

Edit: Blarg. Ninja'd because I'm apparently posting in molasses.


----------



## thalmin

Dragonblade said:
			
		

> How did they fix the paladin's mark?



Nicely.




> On your turn, you must engage the target you challenged or challenge a different target. To engage it, you must either attack it or end you turn adjacent to it. If none of these events occur by the end of your turn, the marked condition ends and you can't use Divine Challenge on your next turn.
> You can use Divine Challenge once per turn.


----------



## Kordeth

jelmore said:
			
		

> According to one account, there are supposed to be two Eberron-specific pregens in the section for adapting to fit Eberron.
> 
> Are they just variations on the existing pregens, or are they new?




I thought the setting-specific adaptations were going to be an Insider article....


----------



## Dragonblade

thalmin said:
			
		

> Nicely.




Indeed! Thank you!


----------



## pukunui

thalmin said:
			
		

> Nicely.



Sweet as!


----------



## Gargazon

> On your turn, you must engage the target you challenged or challenge a different target. To engage it, you must either attack it or end you turn adjacent to it. If none of these events occur by the end of your turn, the marked condition ends and you can't use Divine Challenge on your next turn.
> You can use Divine Challenge once per turn.




Wow, I didn't expect the fix to be so much like the one that was being circled around the forums...

Also, doesn't this make Kobold Dragonshields and their 'Shift when enemy moves adjacent' ability a right pain in the arse for a Paladin?


----------



## Rechan

Gargazon said:
			
		

> Also, doesn't this make
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Kobold Dragonshields
> 
> 
> and their 'Shift when enemy moves adjacent' ability a right pain in the arse for a Paladin?



And the 



Spoiler



goblin's "Move if an attack doesn't hit you".


----------



## Gargazon

Rechan said:
			
		

> And the goblin's "Move if an attack doesn't hit you".




Oh boy, it looks like my D&D group got a whole new reason to hate goblins!   

... The goblins DO actually still have that power, right? The DDM stat cards surely are not that different?


----------



## Dragonblade

Gargazon said:
			
		

> Also, doesn't this make Kobold Dragonshields and their 'Shift when enemy moves adjacent' ability a right pain in the arse for a Paladin?




Should be ok. The paladin ends his turn adjacent and marks. The kobold's shift is a reaction not an interrupt, so the kobold's shift occurs immediately after the paladin ends his turn. So the kobold is still marked.


----------



## Rechan

Gargazon said:
			
		

> Oh boy, it looks like my D&D group got a whole new reason to hate
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> goblins!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ... The goblins DO actually still have that power, right? The DDM stat cards surely are not that different?



I'm going off the Monsters and More PDF from pictures shown of the MM at DDXP.


----------



## Rechan

Dragonblade said:
			
		

> Should be ok. The paladin ends his turn adjacent and marks.
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> The kobold's shift is a reaction not an interrupt, so the kobold's shift occurs immediately after the paladin ends his turn. So the kobold is still marked.



Of course, 



Spoiler



the kobold could shift away, and another kobold shift into its place. I.e. "I'm hit I'm hit halp! Get in his way!"


----------



## Gargazon

Dragonblade said:
			
		

> Should be ok. The paladin ends his turn adjacent and marks. The kobold's shift is a reaction not an interrupt, so the kobold's shift occurs immediately after the paladin ends his turn. So the kobold is still marked.




No, the shift happens immediately after the Paladin moves. The end of the turn follows the ending of movement, and so is after the shifting.

However, I've noticed that it explictly says that the mark still functions if you try and attack the target (not if you actually hit them) so I imagine you just need to blindly swing you blade at a gobbo to keep him marked.


----------



## Mouseferatu

Dragonblade said:
			
		

> Should be ok. The paladin ends his turn adjacent and marks. The kobold's shift is a reaction not an interrupt, so the kobold's shift occurs immediately after the paladin ends his turn. So the kobold is still marked.




Unfortunately, no. The reaction is the _very next thing_ to happen after the triggering action. In that respect, it does interrupt someone else's turn. So even if moving adjacent is the last thing the paladin does, the shift technically happens before his turn is "officially" over. (For instance, if the paladin had any saves left to make, it would be move, kobold shifts, paladin saves.)

So yes, these guys _are_ a PITA for paladins. But that's okay, IMO.


----------



## WhatGravitas

Rechan said:
			
		

> And the goblin's "Move if an attack doesn't hit you".



Perfect for little, cowardly, nasty buggers like them!

Or did anybody think that a gobbo would fight fair? 

Cheers, LT.


----------



## Sojorn

Charge.

The shift comes after and by then you've attacked.

Edit: Of course now Ari has me doubting that. Is charge one action or two?


----------



## Kordeth

thalmin said:
			
		

> On your turn, you must engage the target you challenged or challenge a different target. To engage it, you must either attack it or end you turn adjacent to it. If none of these events occur by the end of your turn, the marked condition ends and you can't use Divine Challenge on your next turn.
> You can use Divine Challenge once per turn.




Not bad--I think I'd probably rule that if you begin your turn adjacent to the target, you _must_ attack it this turn, but this is still a good fix.


----------



## Dragonblade

Gargazon said:
			
		

> No, the shift happens immediately after the Paladin moves. The end of the turn follows the ending of movement, and so is after the shifting.




Incorrect. Per the Scale Gloom hall handout, immediate reactions occur only after the preceding turn has been fully resolved. Only interrupts occur in the middle of another creature's turn.


----------



## Derren

> On your turn, you must engage the target you challenged or challenge a different target. To engage it, you must either attack it or end you turn adjacent to it. If none of these events occur by the end of your turn, the marked condition ends and you can't use Divine Challenge on your next turn.
> You can use Divine Challenge once per turn.




Its a rather bad fix. This way its still possible for the paladin to stay back and pelt the enemy with ranged attacks while also dealing automatic damage to it.


----------



## Mouseferatu

Dragonblade said:
			
		

> Incorrect. Per the Scale Gloom hall handout, immediate reactions occur only after the preceding turn has been fully resolved. Only interrupts occur in the middle of another creature's turn.




Immediate reactions occur after the action that triggered them, not after the whole turn.


----------



## Dragonblade

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> Unfortunately, no. The reaction is the _very next thing_ to happen after the triggering action. In that respect, it does interrupt someone else's turn. So even if moving adjacent is the last thing the paladin does, the shift technically happens before his turn is "officially" over. (For instance, if the paladin had any saves left to make, it would be move, kobold shifts, paladin saves.)
> 
> So yes, these guys _are_ a PITA for paladins. But that's okay, IMO.




Not according to the Scale Gloom handout from WotC, which clearly distinguishes between immediate reactions and immediate interrupts. And specifically says that reactions only occur after the preceding turn is resolved.

Of course, you're ruleset may be different than what I was looking at since you have the full rules.


----------



## Rechan

I like that you can just end your turn adjacent to it. So you can challenge a baddie, but still hack at a minion adjacent to him, and then remain beside him for your turn. So that a paladin doesn't have to attack one guy the entire fight.


----------



## hong

Derren said:
			
		

> Its a rather bad fix. This way its still possible for the paladin to stay back and pelt the enemy with ranged attacks while also dealing automatic damage to it.



 It's a really good fix. This lets the paladin stay back and pelt the enemy with ranged attacks while still dealing automatic damage.


----------



## thalmin

I guess it is useless to remind people to use spoiler tags on the critters.

Yes, the stated powers for both monsters are still there.


----------



## Dragonblade

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> Immediate reactions occur after the action that triggered them, not after the whole turn.




True, but if the paladins movement to an adjacent square ends his turn, then technically the kobold should stay marked since it can't shift until the paladins movement and thus the paladin's turn is finished.


----------



## Derren

hong said:
			
		

> It's a really good fix.




Battle Tactic 101: The defender must be as far away from the enemy as possible...

Care to explain why you think that this is a good fix Hong? Because many people complained that the "run away" paladin was not very defenderish and the new rules don't fix that and it is still easily exploited by having a second defender in the group.


----------



## Kordeth

Sojorn said:
			
		

> Charge.
> 
> The shift comes after and by then you've attacked.
> 
> Edit: Of course now Ari has me doubting that. Is charge one action or two?




Charge is one action, as I understand it--this should work.

I love emergent tactics!


----------



## Gargazon

Dragonblade said:
			
		

> True, but if the paladins movement to an adjacent square ends his turn, then technically the kobold should stay marked since it can't shift until the paladins movement and thus the paladin's turn is finished.




I believe ending a turn would count as a seperate action to moving. It just feels wrong to go 'I'm moving AND ending my turn! You can't shift and spoil my marking!'


----------



## Scipio202

Can you give any details/impressions of what Martial utility powers look like?

Also, thanks!


----------



## eleran

Derren said:
			
		

> Its a rather bad fix. This way its still possible for the paladin to stay back and pelt the enemy with ranged attacks while also dealing automatic damage to it.





 It also allows the Paladin not to be gimped by being cutoff from meleeing with an opponent and only able to use ranged weapons, or maybe for that rare elven paladin who likes to use bows.

Seems the Gods are looking out for their Paladins as long as they ENGAGE the enemy.  That is their job after all.  Of course, if they had their druthers they would be toe to toe, but life sometimes throws us lemons and we have to make succotash when that happens.


----------



## Nyarlathotep

Moving away from the crunch for a few moments, what are your impressions of the adventure? Does it seem like it would be fun to play? Is it primarily dungeon-crawling or is there some RPG challenges mixed in there as well? Are there enough rules to be able to advance the pregens through to level 3 without the core books?


----------



## Shroomy

Any example skill challenges?


----------



## Gargazon

Derren said:
			
		

> Its a rather bad fix. This way its still possible for the paladin to stay back and pelt the enemy with ranged attacks while also dealing automatic damage to it.




It ain't automatic damage unless the creature attacks someone other than you and, seeing as you can attack it, it's likely it can find a way to attack you back.

Let's remember the monster also knows full well what the Challenge you've imposed on it does (as per the Powers Excerpt) so unless you're playing your monsters dumb it's going to try and find a way around this problem.


----------



## Primal

Sojorn said:
			
		

> !!!!!!
> 
> Ranged? Long live the throwing dagger rogue!




So you throw a dagger in a "tricky" way, and get to move the target? How does it happen? You throw the dagger and he has to move in order to dodge it (even against his will -- note that in some cases it would be more reasonable just to take the hit)? Or is the throw so mightily powerful, that when your dagger hits, the target (regardless of its strength, size or weight) is knocked out of its socks?


----------



## keterys

Reactions occur after a preceding _action_ which is a bit different from a turn. Interrupts occur before/in the middle of an action.

The Scalegloom handout on my hard drive* does say that clearly 

* The original, I make no allowance for if it got changed on its way into the PrC or dnd4e.com or anywhere else.


----------



## Ximenes088

Primal said:
			
		

> So you throw a dagger in a "tricky" way, and get to move the target? How does it happen? You throw the dagger and he has to move in order to dodge it (even against his will -- note that in some cases it would be more reasonable just to take the hit)? Or is the throw so mightily powerful, that when your dagger hits, the target (regardless of its strength, size or weight) is knocked out of its socks?



You throw the dagger and hamstring it, causing it to topple back in the direction you want. Every time you hit it for the rest of the encounter, you're aggravating that injury and causing it to stumble in the correct direction.

Or if you're a brute-type rogue? Then yeah. You hit that thing so hard it falls over. You're a striker, it's your job to hurt things horribly.


----------



## eleran

Primal said:
			
		

> So you throw a dagger in a "tricky" way, and get to move the target? How does it happen? You throw the dagger and he has to move in order to dodge it (even against his will -- note that in some cases it would be more reasonable just to take the hit)? Or is the throw so mightily powerful, that when your dagger hits, the target (regardless of its strength, size or weight) is knocked out of its socks?





Obviously, you imbue the thrown object with some of your latent mutant telekinetic force (Gambit, I am looking at you).  And that rocks!!!

All snarkiness aside, you throw the object in such a way as to cause the opponent to shift to try and dodge the object, only the accuracy of your shot is so good that he dodges completely out of his square and into some adjacent square still taking the hit.  On your shots that are not so accurate he doesnt have to move nearly as far to avoid it (eg you missed)


----------



## pukunui

Nyarlathotep said:
			
		

> Are there enough rules to be able to advance the pregens through to level 3 without the core books?



Thalmin said at the beginning that the 16-page rulebook includes a guide on advancing each pregen character to 2nd and 3rd level. My understanding is that there aren't any options. It just tells you "this is what your character gets at this level".

I'm pretty sure Mearls or someone said something to this effect as well.


@ Thalmin - can you tell us if Mearls' "secret room" is still extent? I remember one of the earliest tidbits we got about this adventure was that Mearls had put in a secret room that couldn't be found just by thoroughly searching every square inch of every room. It requires solving some sort of puzzle or something. Is it still in the adventure? And, if so, is it really cool? I don't care about the details. I'd prefer to find out for myself. I just want to know if it's still there.


----------



## eleran

Rechan said:
			
		

> You could substitute one of the DDXP characters. Or at least let them swithc to powers from there.
> 
> For instance, there's no Warlock or Ranger.





Except there is no way to level them up  :-(  Our group has 6 players also.


----------



## malraux

Come on, its a class based on hitting were it hurts.  So you nail it in the eye/groin/butt and thereafter hit the weapon stuck in the wound.


----------



## Obscure

eleran said:
			
		

> Except there is no way to level them up  :-(  Our group has 6 players also.




...until the PHB comes out 2 weeks after you start playing KotS.


----------



## hong

Derren said:
			
		

> Battle Tactic 101: The defender must be as far away from the enemy as possible...
> 
> Care to explain why you think that this is a good fix Hong?




Battle tactic 102: the attacker must be as close to the enemy as possible.



> Because many people complained that the "run away" paladin was not very defenderish and the new rules don't fix that and it is still easily exploited by having a second defender in the group.




People complain about all sorts of things.

Hmm.


----------



## thalmin

Primal said:
			
		

> So you throw a dagger in a "tricky" way, and get to move the target? How does it happen? You throw the dagger and he has to move in order to dodge it (even against his will -- note that in some cases it would be more reasonable just to take the hit)? Or is the throw so mightily powerful, that when your dagger hits, the target (regardless of its strength, size or weight) is knocked out of its socks?



Sorry, I left out the flavor text


> _Through a series of feints and lures, you maneuver your foe right where you want him._


----------



## pukunui

Obscure said:
			
		

> ...until the PHB comes out 2 weeks after you start playing KotS.



 Yeah, that's the only thing that bugs me about this release. Why didn't they release the adventure far enough in advance that you'd actually have a chance to play through it before the books come out?


----------



## Serendipity

thalmin said:
			
		

> _Rogue Daily:_ *Trick Strike*
> Martial, Weapon
> Standard Action Melee or Ranged weapon
> Target one creature
> Attack +8 vs AC (normal)
> Hit 3d4+4 damage, and you can slide the target 1 square. (standard is 1d4+1 for character)
> Effect: Until the end of the encounter, each time you hit the target you can slide it 1 square.




** whistles ** That's pretty butch for a 1st level character.   Wow.  Especially if it's melee or ranged.

You Sir, rock hard for posting all this.  Thank you muchly.


----------



## mach1.9pants

Thanks, Thalmin, you the man. (Edit: I mean every FLGS I have contacted is unsure and I have contacted pretty much every one in NZ) Pretty much every FLGS in NZ I have contacted are not even sure if they are going to get the 4E stuff by the 6th so not only are you the man but you are a lucky bugger


----------



## Sojorn

thalmin said:
			
		

> Sorry, I left out the flavor text
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Through a series of feints and lures, you maneuver your foe right where you want him.
Click to expand...


I think I'm going to be going more for the "he's just that lucky" angle.

"Oh, you managed to hit the orc's old war wound, opening it up and causing him to stumble in pain? Did you know it was there? No? Weird. Wonder why this stuff always happens to you?"

More likely to be using a hand crossbow rather than daggers though. Goes better with him being a tinkerer and locksmith apprentice from before starting to adventure.


----------



## FunkBGR

I'm going to leave it up to the player on how to explain their character does their powers. 

More RP for everyone!


----------



## thalmin

mach1.9pants said:
			
		

> Thanks, Thalmin, you the man. (Edit: I mean every FLGS I have contacted is unsure and I have contacted pretty much every one in NZ) Pretty much every FLGS in NZ I have contacted are not even sure if they are going to get the 4E stuff by the 6th so not only are you the man but you are a lucky bugger



Not that lucky. I haven't done any work since I got to work today. FedEx arrived shortly after I got here, and I've been reading and posting ever since. Good thing my staff understands.

And you are all welcome.


----------



## pukunui

mach1.9pants said:
			
		

> Thanks, Thalmin, you the man. (Edit: I mean every FLGS I have contacted is unsure and I have contacted pretty much every one in NZ) Pretty much every FLGS in NZ I have contacted are not even sure if they are going to get the 4E stuff by the 6th so not only are you the man but you are a lucky bugger



 Yeah, I've ordered my books from Amazon because not only are the FLGS's here in Auckland slow, they're also ridiculously overpriced ... but, of course, I don't want to pay as much in shipping as the books cost themselves in order to get them here quickly, so I won't be getting my books until several weeks after everyone in America gets them ... sigh!


----------



## Verys Arkon

keterys said:
			
		

> Reactions occur after a preceding _action_ which is a bit different from a turn. Interrupts occur before/in the middle of an action.
> 
> The Scalegloom handout on my hard drive* does say that clearly
> 
> * The original, I make no allowance for if it got changed on its way into the PrC or dnd4e.com or anywhere else.




I went back to compare the PrRC's quote of the Scalegloom Hall rules, and I don't seen any variation.



> Immediate Action
> Interrupts and reactions are immediate actions. Specific powers
> define the trigger for these actions. You can take only one
> immediate action per round, and you can't take an immediate
> action on your turn. You only get one immediate action per
> round; presumably, they reset on your action.
> • An interrupt lets you act before the triggering action is
> resolved. If the interrupt invalidates the triggering action,
> that action is lost.
> • A reaction lets you act immediately in response to a
> triggering action. The triggering action is completely
> resolved before you take your reaction.


----------



## Kitirat

*Regarding Copyrights*

Just a quick note, he has a copy which he can display at his store, thus since it can be publically displayed, he can release any and all info he wants (though scanning and reproducing the character sheets in detail is likely pushing it).  If he or a customer (cough, cough) was to hand write excepts info into a post, it would not be under copyright infringement.

And thanks a ton for all the info.

Something I would love to know is what are the new powers each character has.  Perhaps just the names and type (at-will, encounter, etc).  Especially for the wizard, paladin and cleric.

Thanks,
Ken


----------



## jaldaen

First of all thank you very much for all your scoops... I'm liking what I see... I do however have a question for you:

What abilities match up with the bolded ability modifiers? I'm just trying to reverse engeener them... if you want you could just post the dragonborn and rogue's ability scores and I'll try to reverse them myself.



			
				thalmin said:
			
		

> Dragon Breath Encounter Power - Minor Action - Blast 3 - Attack +4 *(unkown ability)* vs Reflex - 1d6 + 1 *(unknown ability)* damage.
> 
> Rogue Daily: Trick Strike
> Through a series of feints and lures, you maneuver your foe right where you want him.
> Martial, Weapon
> Standard Action Melee or Ranged weapon
> Target one creature
> Attack +8 *(Str or Dex?) * vs AC (normal)
> Hit 3[W] + 4 *(Str or Dex?) * damage, and you can slide the target 1 square.
> Effect: Until the end of the encounter, each time you hit the target you can slide it 1 square.




Thanks!


----------



## thalmin

I just remembered. At GAMA, we asked about only 5 pregens. The WotC folk (sorry, I don't remember who) took notes about possibly doing another character on DDI. Let's hope.


----------



## pukunui

Sorry to be a pest but I'm going to reiterate my question about the "secret room". Have you spotted it yet?


----------



## Sojorn

thalmin said:
			
		

> I just remembered. At GAMA, we asked about only 5 pregens. The WotC folk (sorry, I don't remember who) took notes about possibly doing another character on DDI. Let's hope.



Be nice if there was an extra pregen or two by the 20th, yes


----------



## Shado

Derren said:
			
		

> Its a rather bad fix. This way its still possible for the paladin to stay back and pelt the enemy with ranged attacks while also dealing automatic damage to it.




It's been said once, but it needs repeating.

A Paladin's Divine Challenge *does not* do automatic damage.  I never has (in any public version of the ability).

It only does damage *if *the target makes an attack that doesn't include the Paladin as a target.

As all creatures are aware of marks placed upon them, their consequences, and who placed the mark on them, it's not an issue.


----------



## thalmin

jaldaen said:
			
		

> First of all thank you very much for all your scoops... I'm liking what I see... I do however have a question for you:
> 
> What abilities match up with the bolded ability modifiers? I'm just trying to reverse engeener them... if you want you could just post the dragonborn and rogue's ability scores and I'll try to reverse them myself.
> 
> Thanks!



Dragonborn Str 18, Con 12, Dex 10, Int 11, Wis 13, Cha 16
Rogue Str 12, Con 13, Dex 18, Int 11, Wis 10, Cha 16


----------



## Verys Arkon

thalmin said:
			
		

> Dragonborn Str 18, Con 12, Dex 10, Int 11, Wis 13, Cha 16
> Rogue Str 12, Con 13, Dex 18, Int 11, Wis 10, Cha 16




Those both add up to 32 using the point-buy Totoro came up with  (Method B in PrRC).


----------



## keterys

Score another one for the PrRC


----------



## thalmin

pukunui said:
			
		

> Sorry to be a pest but I'm going to reiterate my question about the "secret room". Have you spotted it yet?



Sorry, I have not yet spotted the room, but I haven't had much chance to read the adventure. Danged customers keep coming in and interrupting me.


----------



## Shroomy

thalmin said:
			
		

> Sorry, I have not yet spotted the room, but I haven't had much chance to read the adventure. Danged customers keep coming in and interrupting me.




Ignore them!  Half-crazed obsessives demand answers!


----------



## Scalding

thalmin said:
			
		

> Danged customers keep coming in and interrupting me.




I read that as "_Deranged_ customers..."

If I lived 1/20th as far from you as I do, I'd be a deranged customer in, interrupting you...


----------



## thalmin

*Half-*crazed?


----------



## hbarsquared

Apologies, thalmin, but I'm going to have to reiterate the burning question that's most important to me, personally...

Is the (godawful and annoying, imo) _Expedition_ adventures "Tactical Encounter" design format used for KotS?


----------



## Shroomy

thalmin said:
			
		

> *Half-*crazed?




I wanted to give everyone else the benefit of the doubt.  I'm certifiable.


----------



## Scipio202

3/4-crazed obsessive:  Just wanted to ask again about Fighter & Rogue utility powers (in case you overlooked the question).  Thanks!


----------



## Shado

Verys Arkon said:
			
		

> Those both add up to 32 using the point-buy Totoro came up with  (Method B in PrRC).




Or an even 30 with normal point-buy.

I'm going on record now that 'Method B' is not the new point buy, and the XP characters were just flawed.

EDIT:  I'll go farther out on a limb here and say point-buy hasn't changed, but the suggested point allowance will be 30.


----------



## pukunui

thalmin said:
			
		

> Sorry, I have not yet spotted the room, but I haven't had much chance to read the adventure. Danged customers keep coming in and interrupting me.



That's all right. If you _do_ happen to spot it, would you be so kind as to let me know? I don't know why it's important to me. I just want to know.




> Is the (godawful and annoying, imo) Expedition adventures "Tactical Encounter" design format used for KotS?



I'm sure it has been said somewhere that they've modified the format to make it more user-friendly ... for instance, this time everything you need really is in one place instead of the fluff being in one section and all the tactical encounters being in another. I found that to be particularly aggravating when trying to run _Barrow of the Forgotten King_.


----------



## jaldaen

thalmin said:
			
		

> Dragonborn Str 18, Con 12, Dex 10, Int 11, Wis 13, Cha 16
> Rogue Str 12, Con 13, Dex 18, Int 11, Wis 10, Cha 16




Thanks so with these abilities here's what I'm thinking...

Dragon Breath Encounter Power - Minor Action - Blast 3 - Attack *Strength* vs Reflex - 1d6 + *Constitution* modifier damage.

*Rogue Daily: Trick Strike * 
Through a series of feints and lures, you maneuver your foe right where you want him.
*Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee* or *Ranged* weapon
*Target* one creature
*Attack * *Dexterity or Strength** vs AC (normal)
*Hit* 3[W] + *Dexterity or Strength** modifier damage, and you can slide the target 1 square.
*Effect:* Until the end of the encounter, each time you hit the target you can slide it 1 square.

*I chose Dexterity or Stength because unlike the other Rogue powers because it does not have the weapon requirement of the other rogue powers we've seen.


----------



## FireLance

Derren said:
			
		

> Battle Tactic 101: The defender must be as far away from the enemy as possible...
> 
> Care to explain why you think that this is a good fix Hong? Because many people complained that the "run away" paladin was not very defenderish and the new rules don't fix that and it is still easily exploited by having a second defender in the group.



Let's not confuse the problems here. The "run away" paladin problem was a concern because it was too effective a tactic - the marked monster couldn't attack the paladin and would take damage if it attacked anyone else. This goes some way towards fixing the problem since the paladin can't actually "run away". He has to make at least a ranged attack against the target once per round. He can still avoid engaging opponents that only have melee attacks, but opponents with ranged attacks can attack him back.

In addition, the paladin defends by drawing attacks, not with "stickiness" like a fighter. A paladin doesn't need to be close to the enemy to defend. His challenge still works against opponents that could attack the party while remaining out of melee reach, e.g. an archer on a ledge or a balcony, by drawing such ranged attacks away from the other characters.


----------



## lvl20dm

I also got to take a look at this at my local game store today. A few answers:

They've done away with the delve format, though they've incorporated some elements of it into a more traditional style (everything, story and all, is together in one place). 

The Fighter had a few new abilities: Reaping Strike, an at will that did str mod damage on a miss, and Sweeping strike, an encounter power that did weapon damage and knocked the enemy prone. He also had a 2nd level utility power that gave him 2d6+3 temporary hp.

The Half-elf appeared to get a +2 to Cha and Con again (this assumes that is what Tira got). All of the characters worked with Totoro's 32 pt. buy. As a Cleric, he also had an encounter power that was a melee attack that healed an ally with a healing surge and marked the target.

The Rogue had an at will called Sly Flourish that did Weapon damage plus Dex and Cha. He also had an Encounter power at level 3 that allowed him to switch places with the target and shift (in addition to damage). 

I'm going off memory, so some of this is pretty fuzzy.

Edit: The Paladin had an Atwill called Valiant Smite/Strike that got a +1 to attack for each adjacent enemy. Oh and Power Attack gives you a -2 to attack and a +3 to damage (maybe +STR mod. - the Fighter had it).


----------



## Lancelot

jeremy_dnd said:
			
		

> Apologies, thalmin, but I'm going to have to reiterate the burning question that's most important to me, personally...
> 
> Is the (godawful and annoying, imo) _Expedition_ adventures "Tactical Encounter" design format used for KotS?




Seconded. I hate the "Dungeon Delve" format with the fiery passion of a thousand burning suns. Finding this out is critical to me, as it determines whether I buy any of the new modules at all.

And thanks again, Thalmin, for both giving us a preview, and not spoiling the adventure.


----------



## Green Knight

Any chance you can post a list of the Paladin's At-Will, Encounter, Daily, and Utility powers, and a quick summary of what they do? 

Also, are there any additional class features above and beyond what Corrin, the Halfling Paladin had? Thanks.


----------



## thalmin

jeremy_dnd said:
			
		

> Apologies, thalmin, but I'm going to have to reiterate the burning question that's most important to me, personally...
> 
> Is the (godawful and annoying, imo) _Expedition_ adventures "Tactical Encounter" design format used for KotS?



Sorry, but I am unable to answer that. I am unfamiliar with the "Tactical Design" or the "Delve" formats. (I haven't used a published module in 15 or more years.) Most of the encounters are covered in a 2-page spread. The typical encounter has a couple paragraphs in the Setup, including the monsters listed for the encounter. This is followed by the Tactics section, with a couple of paragraphs describing tactics the monsters will use. Then there are the Stat Blocks and map, then a section on Features of the Area, which includes illumination, special terrain features, treasure.
There are mostly combat encounters some trap encounters, and a bit of special social encounter.


----------



## Novem5er

Thalmin, thank you so much for posting the monster list earlier. I went online and ordered some singles for things I was missing (plus a few extra that I wanted). I was blessed to already have most of the monsters, so my order was pretty small. Still, I'm surprised by the number of monsters in some encounters... the devs have said there will be MORE monsters on the battlefield than in 3e and, from the looks of it, they weren't kidding!


----------



## Asmor

Sorry if you've already answered this and I missed it, but any skill challenges in the adventure?

Regardless of whether you get to answering this question, thanks a ton for all the info!


----------



## hbarsquared

thalmin said:
			
		

> Sorry, but I am unable to answer that. I am unfamiliar with the "Tactical Design" or the "Delve" formats. (I haven't used a published module in 15 or more years.) Most of the encounters are covered in a 2-page spread. The typical encounter has a couple paragraphs in the Setup, including the monsters listed for the encounter. This is followed by the Tactics section, with a couple of paragraphs describing tactics the monsters will use. Then there are the Stat Blocks and map, then a section on Features of the Area, which includes illumination, special terrain features, treasure.
> There are mostly combat encounters some trap encounters, and a bit of special social encounter.




I think you (and lvl20dm, above) answered me!  

The "Tactical Encounter" format forced encounters to be exactly two pages, and had to be referenced in a different part of the book; all combat encounters were separated out from the rest of the adventure, leading to a very disjointed reading.

It doesn't sound like this will be the case for 4E, for which I am thankful.


----------



## Rechan

I am just vibrating to get information on the monster stats.


----------



## ChristopherGroves

Remember the delve =/= the same as a module / adventure.  It's separate and distinct and has been for years.  It is used sometimes to proof concepts or playtest new rules at conventions, etc. but don't think that plot is out the window.


----------



## hbarsquared

ChristopherGroves said:
			
		

> Remember the delve =/= the same as a module / adventure.  It's separate and distinct and has been for years.  It is used sometimes to proof concepts or playtest new rules at conventions, etc. but don't think that plot is out the window.




Oh, no.  By the "Delve format" we/I don't mean the actual "Delve" adventures at D&DXP, for example.  I mean the format that has been published in 3.5.  Mainly, the _Expedition_ series, where combat encounters are clumped together and detailed in an entirely separate portion of the book.

It looks like 4E adventures will be presented more continuously.


----------



## Snarls-at-Fleas

lvl20dm said:
			
		

> The Fighter had a few new abilities: Reaping Strike, an at will that did str mod damage on a miss, and Sweeping strike, an encounter power that did weapon damage and knocked the enemy prone.




Yeah! Reap'n'Sweep!!!


----------



## jaldaen

I was wondering... does the dragon's breath ability deal half-damage on a miss? Thanks


----------



## LFK

jaldaen said:
			
		

> I was wondering... does the dragon's breath ability deal half-damage on a miss? Thanks



No, a miss is a miss.

But if you missed <the really really juicy detail> it's a Minor Action to use.

Edit: eschew obfuscation


----------



## thalmin

Green Knight said:
			
		

> Any chance you can post a list of the Paladin's At-Will, Encounter, Daily, and Utility powers, and a quick summary of what they do?
> 
> Also, are there any additional class features above and beyond what Corrin, the Halfling Paladin had? Thanks.



Valiant Strike
At-Will
Standard Melee
Target One creature
Attack basic bonus PLUS +1 per enemy adjacent to you
Hit normal

Radiant Smite
Encounter Divine, Radiant, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target One creature
Attack basic vs Ac
Hit 2(w) +5 radiant (no normal bonus damage)

Paladin's Judgement
Daily Divine, Healing, Weapon
Standard Melee weapon
Target One creature
Attack basic
Hit: 3 (w) + basic bonus, and one ally within 5 squares of you can spend a healing surge.
Miss: One ally within 5 squares of you can spend a healing surge.

Martyr's Blessing    Paladin Utility 2
_You step into an attack made against an adjacent ally_ 
Daily Divine
Immediate Interrupt    Close burst 1
Trigger: An adjacent ally is hit by a melee or a ranged attack
Effect: You are hit by the attack instead

Staggering Smite   Paladin Attack 3
Encounter Divine, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: basic vs AC
Hit: 2 (w) + basic, and you can push the target 1 square


----------



## Rechan

Outside of a situation where there's like four opponents or more around the paladin, I don't see Valiant Strike being all that useful.

How often are there enough enemies adjacent to one character to make the ability really worth it?


----------



## Kitirat

Can ya do the same thing for the cleric and perhaps the wizard?



			
				thalmin said:
			
		

> Valiant Strike
> At-Will
> Standard Melee
> Target One creature
> Attack basic bonus PLUS +1 per enemy adjacent to you
> Hit normal
> 
> Radiant Smite
> Encounter Divine, Radiant, Weapon
> Standard Action Melee weapon
> Target One creature
> Attack basic vs Ac
> Hit 2(w) +5 radiant (no normal bonus damage)
> 
> Paladin's Judgement
> Daily Divine, Healing, Weapon
> Standard Melee weapon
> Target One creature
> Attack basic
> Hit: 3 (w) + basic bonus, and one ally within 5 squares of you can spend a healing surge.
> Miss: One ally within 5 squares of you can spend a healing surge.
> 
> Martyr's Blessing    Paladin Utility 2
> _You step into an attack made against an adjacent ally_
> Daily Divine
> Immediate Interrupt    Close burst 1
> Trigger: An adjacent ally is hit by a melee or a ranged attack
> Effect: You are hit by the attack instead
> 
> Staggering Smite   Paladin Attack 3
> Encounter Divine, Weapon
> Standard Action Melee weapon
> Target: One creature
> Attack: basic vs AC
> Hit: 2 (w) + basic, and you can push the target 1 square


----------



## thalmin

Since it has everything the standard attack has it is worth it if the paladin is adjacent to just one enemy, (+1 to hit for each enemy, doesn't say additional enemy) and doesn't have an at-will more appropriate for that enemy.


----------



## I'm A Banana

Rechan said:
			
		

> Outside of a situation where there's like four opponents or more around the paladin, I don't see Valiant Strike being all that useful.
> 
> How often are there enough enemies adjacent to one character to make the ability really worth it?




Well, considering it's at-will, it doesn't cost anything. And considering that the Paladin's job is to get up in an enemy's face, they should be surrounded by enemies near the start of any encounter that they can charge into the middle of 'em. 

So it's a nice little bonus when the paladin is doing his main job of getting up in the baddies' grill. 

How useful does it really have to be?


----------



## Rechan

thalmin said:
			
		

> Since it has everything the standard attack has it is worth it if the paladin is adjacent to just one enemy, (+1 to hit for each enemy, doesn't say additional enemy) and doesn't have an at-will more appropriate for that enemy.



But I think Shielding Smite or the Temp-HP smite are better than "+1 to hit enemy".

It's a real lack-luster At Will compared to the other options.


----------



## Sphyre

Rechan said:
			
		

> How often are there enough enemies adjacent to one character to make the ability really worth it?




Being that they are a defender and encounters have more enemies in them than 3e, I'd imagine it being useful.  Of course, I haven't run anything in 4e yet, so I can't say for anything other than speculation.


----------



## thalmin

Rechan said:
			
		

> But I think Shielding Smite or the Temp-HP smite are better than "+1 to hit enemy".
> 
> It's a real lack-luster At Will compared to the other options.



But Shielding Smite is an Encounter Power. And we don't know if the HP from multiple Bolstering Strikes stack.


----------



## I'm A Banana

> But I think Shielding Smite or the Temp-HP smite are better than "+1 to hit enemy".
> 
> It's a real lack-luster At Will compared to the other options.




Perhaps. But I think it might shine in that "group optimization" way that 4e seems to love. You get your friends to push the minions into you, then you lay down the decisive blow against their boss. Also, this is an offensive ability, one of the few we've seen. Temp HP and shielding are good defensive abilities, but a purely defensive paladin might not be able to do much more than annoy the enemies and whiff -- not unlike the 3e monk.


----------



## Sojorn

thalmin said:
			
		

> But Shielding Smite is an Encounter Power. And we don't know if the HP from multiple Bolstering Strikes stack.



It doesn't.

Don't ask me to pull a source out, I don't know if I can, but I'm certain I've seen that exact question and the answer is temp HP doesn't stack.

Let me see if I can find the source anyway though


----------



## Rechan

thalmin said:
			
		

> But Shielding Smite is an Encounter Power. And we don't know if the HP from multiple Bolstering Strikes stack.



Huh. Thought it was an At-Will.

And since the Paladin doesn't have the Bolstering strike, I guess there's no rules in there about whether temp HPs stack. Dangit. HURRY UP JUNE.


----------



## Iron Sky

It was stated by a dev somewhere that temp hp don't stack.  I would link a source, but I have no idea where I saw it.


----------



## Rechan

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> Perhaps. But I think it might shine in that "group optimization" way that 4e seems to love. You get your friends to push the minions into you, then you lay down the decisive blow against their boss. Also, this is an offensive ability, one of the few we've seen. Temp HP and shielding are good defensive abilities, but a purely defensive paladin might not be able to do much more than annoy the enemies and whiff -- not unlike the 3e monk.



I think the Pally's Challenge and "On Pain of Death" are really nice offensive things. It at least makes all that defense worth it when you're forcing the guy to attack you - the monk was annoying but the enemy could just ignore him. 

And I really like that Radiant smite. mmm radiant damage.


----------



## Rechan

> Martyr's Blessing Paladin Utility 2
> You step into an attack made against an adjacent ally
> Daily Divine
> Immediate Interrupt Close burst 1
> Trigger: *An adjacent ally is hit by a melee or a ranged attack*
> Effect: You are hit by the attack instead




I wonder if this works for area attacks. And if so, would a secondary effect (like being knocked prone) effect the pally, no the original target?


----------



## Sojorn

Rechan said:
			
		

> I wonder if this works for area attacks. And if so, would a secondary effect (like being knocked prone) effect the pally, no the original target?



Doesn't. The ranged or melee wording is to specifically exclude area attacks.

I would assume it makes the paladin the new target of the attack and he takes all the effects instead. Including being slid around, knocked prone, slowed, stunned, thrown, set on fire, drowned, partially turned to stone, melted, kicked in the jimmies, or otherwise negatively affected.

Edit: Just to clarify, it does work against ranged attacks with multiple targets, just not bursts or blasts.


----------



## Rechan

Sojorn said:
			
		

> Doesn't. The ranged or melee wording is to specifically exclude area attacks.
> 
> I would assume it makes the paladin the new target of the attack and he takes all the effects instead. Including... kicked in the jimmies...



Since this is the Dragonborn paladin, are we sure male DB have jimmies? The females have boobs, but maybe like other reptiles, the males' jimmies are internal.

DB: Immune to junk kicking.


----------



## Ozdec

I would say that the pally is affected by any effects of being hit by the attack. 

Simple really.


----------



## jaldaen

Rechan said:
			
		

> I wonder if this works for area attacks. And if so, would a secondary effect (like being knocked prone) effect the pally, no the original target?




The power would probably use the key word "area attack."

Before answering the second question I would say that once the Paladin uses this power he becomes the "primary target."

The Paladin would be the target of the secondary attack if it effects the primary target. 

If the secondary attack effects a secondary target, then the secondary effects key off of the Paladin being the primary target (for purposes of determining who can be effected, such as adjacent targets, allies within 5 squares, etc).


----------



## LFK

Stacking: the DDXP stuff had a brief note about stacking: Temp HP and ongoing damage of a same type (all temp HP are the same type) do not stack, the highest value overwrites.

Confirm on the "not AoE attacks" since that's the entire point of the      symbols.



> Martyr's Blessing Paladin Utility 2
> You step into an attack made against an adjacent ally
> Daily Divine
> Immediate Interrupt Close burst 1
> Trigger: An adjacent ally is hit by a  or a  attack
> Effect: You are hit by the attack instead


----------



## Torchlyte

LFK said:
			
		

> and ongoing damage of a same type (all temp HP are the same type) do not stack, the highest value overwrites.




I'm not sure I like that.


----------



## samursus

The entry in the PrRC states 

"Temporary HP, such as those gained by the Paladin's bolstering
strike, can exceed a character's maximum Hit Points. However,
you can only have 1 pool of temporary HP at a time. If you have
3 temporary HP, and then use an ability to get 5 temporary HP,
you have 5 extra, not 8. They do not stack. [Unless otherwise
stated, temporary HP last until the end of the encounter"

Not sure where they got the info, but its not ?? like the other speculative stuff.


----------



## samursus

Also like to add my appreciation to thalmin and lvl20dm for their info.

Cheers, big ears!


----------



## thalmin

Well, I just got home from work and I'm tired. So that's all for me now.
G'night everybody.


----------



## Rechan

Sojorn said:
			
		

> I would assume it makes the paladin the new target of the attack and he takes all the effects instead. Including being slid around, knocked prone, slowed, stunned, thrown, set on fire, drowned, partially turned to stone, melted, kicked in the jimmies, or otherwise negatively affected.



However, I COULD see a paladin power that let him take an area effect for another person. The ol' "Dive onto a grenade" type thing, except you're diving in front of the person to take the blast.



> I'm not sure I like that.



Think of it like being on fire. Once you're on fire, someone sticking a torch to you isn't going to catch you on fire AGAIN.


----------



## MindWanderer

Rechan said:
			
		

> However, I COULD see a paladin power that let him take an area effect for another person. The ol' "Dive onto a grenade" type thing, except you're diving in front of the person to take the blast.



The Justiciar's "Strike Me Instead" does almost exactly that: the attack automatically hits you, but misses _all_ of your allies that would have been struck.


----------



## Knight_Errant

Rechan said:
			
		

> Outside of a situation where there's like four opponents or more around the paladin, I don't see Valiant Strike being all that useful.
> 
> How often are there enough enemies adjacent to one character to make the ability really worth it?




Based on what we've seen thusfar in preview materials, several classes have the ability to push enemies around the battlefield. Between the Rogue and Warlock, I think the other party members could set up the Paladin nicely. 

Besides, +1 to every enemy is significant.


----------



## Derren

Edit:
Mark discussion here: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=225642


----------



## Plane Sailing

If anyone wants to have a discussion about the pros and cons of paladin challenge and the new fix for it, please start a new thread to do so. That way we can leave this thread for keep on the shadowfell stuff.

Thanks


----------



## Fallen Seraph

I didn't see it anywhere, so... [sblock]What is the stat-box for the Gnome like?[/sblock]


----------



## Rechan

I wonder what the energy type of the dragonborn's breath is.


----------



## FireLance

Shifting response to other thread.


----------



## pukunui

Rechan said:
			
		

> I wonder what the energy type of the dragonborn's breath is.



 I wonder if you can choose the energy type or whether it's based on your draconic heritage or something.


----------



## Fallen Seraph

pukunui said:
			
		

> I wonder if you can choose the energy type or whether it's based on your draconic heritage or something.



Didn't the magazine article one have it written you could pick fire, acid, lightning, etc.


----------



## pukunui

Fallen Seraph said:
			
		

> Didn't the magazine article one have it written you could pick fire, acid, lightning, etc.



 Yes, I think you're right.


----------



## Cadfan

I like the paladin's +1 per adjacent enemy attack.  Its a nice, simple way to reward him for getting into the middle of the fight.  I don't think +1 to hit beats +3 temp hp, but, I do think that +2 or +3 to hit quite often beats +3 temp ac.  So I'd find myself using it based on the situation.  And having two at will powers that each handle different circumstances is exactly what good pairs of at will powers should do.


----------



## vagabundo

A request for some rules crunch in the adventure, if possible:

- Skill Challenges
- Encumbrance
- Grappling
- Cool traps (are they now skill challenges now?)

And how do you like the adventure?


----------



## Ashardalon

thalmin said:
			
		

> [sblock]1 Gelatinous Cube
> 1 Dark Creeper[/sblock]
> 
> Please use spoiler tags if you are going to talk about these.



When you get back, could you give us the type-lines ("Medium Natural Humanoid") for those two? Thanks in advance!


----------



## Primal

eleran said:
			
		

> Obviously, you imbue the thrown object with some of your latent mutant telekinetic force (Gambit, I am looking at you).  And that rocks!!!
> 
> All snarkiness aside, you throw the object in such a way as to cause the opponent to shift to try and dodge the object, only the accuracy of your shot is so good that he dodges completely out of his square and into some adjacent square still taking the hit.  On your shots that are not so accurate he doesnt have to move nearly as far to avoid it (eg you missed)




Well, try applying that logic to, say, Iron Golems or Bulette or Elementals.


----------



## Mathew_Freeman

Thalmin - thank you so much for posting all this information!

I was excited to get the adventure anyway, but now I'm really keen.

My question is about the maps - are they maps that can be used to play on, meaning do they have the one-inch square marked on?


----------



## ashockney

thalmin said:
			
		

> Well, I just got home from work and I'm tired. So that's all for me now.
> G'night everybody.




You are the man!  

Thank you, your crunchiness.


----------



## thalmin

Fallen Seraph said:
			
		

> I didn't see it anywhere, so... [sblock]What is the stat-box for the Gnome like?[/sblock]



The statblock for this creature includes
[sblock]*Fade Away * (immediate reaction, when the gnome skulk takes damage from any source, encounter) Illusion  The gnome skulk turns invisible until it attacks or until the end of its next turn (whichever comes first.)
*Reactive Stealth * If a gnome has cover or concealment when it rolls an initiative check at the start of an encounter, it can make a Stealth check to escape notice as a free action.
*Shadow Skulk*  When a gnome skulk makes a melee or ranged attack from hiding and misses, it is still considered to be hiding.[/sblock]


----------



## thalmin

Ashardalon said:
			
		

> When you get back, could you give us the type-lines ("Medium Natural Humanoid") for those two? Thanks in advance!



Here you are
[sblock]*Ochre Jelly*, *Blue Slime* and *Gelatinous Cube* are all: Large Natural Beast (ooze)
*Dark Creeper* Small shadow humanoid [/sblock]


----------



## Simon Marks

Primal said:
			
		

> Well, try applying that logic to, say, Iron Golems or Bulette or Elementals.




"I punch the Iron Golem, hitting AC 44!"
"You break your hand"
"Huh"
"Seriously, have you every tried punching Iron? Your hand would break well before you did anything to the Iron."

Why should Rogues (or Fighters) be constrained by the Laws of Physics when no-one else is?


----------



## vagabundo

thalmin said:
			
		

> The statblock for this creature includes
> [sblock]*Fade Away * (immediate reaction, when the gnome skulk takes damage from any source, encounter) Illusion  The gnome skulk turns invisible until it attacks or until the end of its next turn (whichever comes first.)
> *Reactive Stealth * If a gnome has cover or concealment when it rolls an initiative check at the start of an encounter, it can make a Stealth check to escape notice as a free action.
> *Shadow Skulk*  When a gnome skulk makes a melee or ranged attack from hiding and misses, it is still considered to be hiding.[/sblock]




Wow, seems the Gnome found his niche after all.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

vagabundo said:
			
		

> Wow, seems the Gnome found his niche after all.



And that niche is also hard to find!


----------



## thalmin

vagabundo said:
			
		

> A request for some rules crunch in the adventure, if possible:
> 
> - Skill Challenges
> - Encumbrance
> - Grappling
> - Cool traps (are they now skill challenges now?)
> 
> And how do you like the adventure?



There could well be more, I have not read the adventure, but the only skill challenges I have seen involve the traps, which really are Thievery skill challenges. There are many skill checks throughout the adventure. I saw no mention of Grappling or Encumbrance.


----------



## erf_beto

Great stuff, thalmin!
Thanks!   

Though I'm guessing none of this will be answered in KotS, could you tell us how (or if) the pick-one-out-of-two wizard dailies are affected by leveling up? Or, better, are there scrolls or something that a wizard finds/borrows and can copy/add to his spellbook?

Also, do we get more Channel Divinity options? Can you use them more than once when you level up? 

Thanks!


----------



## thalmin

Tallarn said:
			
		

> Thalmin - thank you so much for posting all this information!
> 
> I was excited to get the adventure anyway, but now I'm really keen.
> 
> My question is about the maps - are they maps that can be used to play on, meaning do they have the one-inch square marked on?



Yes, they are poster maps much like found in the *Fantastic Location* products, with one notable difference: they contain no DDM notations like "Victory Area".


----------



## vagabundo

thalmin said:
			
		

> There could well be more, I have not read the adventure, but the only skill challenges I have seen involve the traps, which really are Thievery skill challenges. There are many skill checks throughout the adventure. I saw no mention of Grappling or Encumbrance.




Thanks for info! I was hoping for some juicy scoops.


----------



## thalmin

erf_beto said:
			
		

> Great stuff, thalmin!
> Thanks!
> 
> Though I'm guessing none of this will be answered in KotS, could you tell us how (or if) the pick-one-out-of-two wizard dailies are affected by leveling up? Or, better, are there scrolls or something that a wizard finds/borrows and can copy/add to his spellbook?
> 
> Also, do we get more Channel Divinity options? Can you use them more than once when you level up?
> 
> Thanks!



This Paladin has only one Channel Divinity power: Divine Strength (adds Str mod again to damage), no more at 2nd or 3rd.
The Cleric has 3 options: Divine Fortune (+1 bonus to next attack roll OR saving throw before end of next turn) Turn Undead, and Armor of Bahamat (Feat Power, Immediate Interrupt, turn a Critical Hit against you or an ally into a normal hit) all are Encounter powers. No change on levelling up. No mention whether can only use 1 of the Channels.
No mention for the Wizard daily pick changing when leveling, though he does gain a level 2 utility daily: Expeditious Retreat.
I haven't read the adventure to know whether there are scrolls or spellbooks to pick up.


----------



## malraux

vagabundo said:
			
		

> Wow, seems the Gnome found his niche after all.



Yeah, those abilities seem far more gnome-y than the 3.5 gnome.  By a lot.


----------



## thalmin

There is definitely a Social Encounter in the adventure.


----------



## NiTessine

A friend of mine would like to know if the module has playtester credits.

Thanks for the answers, thalmin.


----------



## thalmin

The adventure announces to the DM where some "Safe Havens" are, places the party can take an extended rest. Also, notes where characters may have leveled up at the end of a couple encounters.

There are some encounter areas which are not included on the poster maps, so a Battle Mat or Dungeon Tiles will be helpful (no layouts suggested for the Dungeon Tiles, unfortunately). Perhaps DDI will provide downloadable maps?

edit: The back of the package does say "For use with these ... products:" then lists the core books, D&D Miniatures, and D&D Dungeon Tiles.


----------



## thalmin

NiTessine said:
			
		

> A friend of mine would like to know if the module has playtester credits.
> 
> Thanks for the answers, thalmin.



No playtester credits


----------



## Kitirat

Cleric at-wills?

Just really interested in what they are, specifically if they are all rays of light range 5 type "blast" attacks.

Thanks in advance for the info.

See ya,
Ken


----------



## Fiendish Dire Weasel

Many thanks Thalmin. I have been looking for a second "data-point" for a lot of these classes, so I really appreciate the time you're taking for this.


----------



## LostInTheMists

Wow, I wake up late today, and what happens?  16 pages of crunch avalanche.

Thalmin, you rock.  A lot.


----------



## Darkwolf71

thalmin said:
			
		

> I did not see anything in the adventure book to scale up or down for larger or smaller parties.



I thought this was something they said would be incuded. Gonna be tricky for me to 'guess' at scaling for my 8 players. 

Edit for clarification: This will be my first time in the DM's chair in many years. But, I'm sure I'll get it right after a few experimental encounters...


----------



## FabioMilitoPagliara

thank you Thalmin!


----------



## Mathew_Freeman

thalmin said:
			
		

> Yes, they are poster maps much like found in the *Fantastic Location* products, with one notable difference: they contain no DDM notations like "Victory Area".




That's fantastic news, thank you very much.

I've ordered some Dungeon Tiles anyway, so hopefully I'll be able to cover the other areas.


----------



## thalmin

Kitirat said:
			
		

> Cleric at-wills?
> 
> Just really interested in what they are, specifically if they are all rays of light range 5 type "blast" attacks.
> 
> Thanks in advance for the info.
> 
> See ya,
> Ken



Just *Lance of Faith* and
*Sacred Flame* Standard action Ranged 5
Target 1 creature
Attack +3 vs Reflex
Hit: 1d6+3 radiant damage, and one ally you can see chooses either to gain temporary hit points equal to your Cha mod+ one-half your level or make a saving throw.

The clerics sure like to "sear" their enemies.


----------



## ShinRyuuBR

thalmin said:
			
		

> Weakened
> Your attacks deal half damage.
> Ongoing damage you deal is not affected




Thanks a lot!

Does it have the ENERVATED condition?

In DDM, Enervated is exactly the same as this Weakened. Seems to me that they changed the name, or maybe Enervated in normal D&D is different than DDM.


----------



## Nahat Anoj

vagabundo said:
			
		

> Wow, seems the Gnome found his niche after all.



Yeah.  I kind of get a Whisper Gnome vibe from it - a little guy who is *fantastic* at stealth.

Lots of other great nuggets of info as well.


----------



## Baumi

First of, MANY thanks for the awesome writeups! 8D

But as always there are new questions... 

- Are there any new skills included (I'm not sure if we saw all from the XP-Chars)?

- Any rules on stabilizing on a 20? (Do you gain Hit-Points)

- When you got stabilized through healing skill, do you gain Hit-Points back?


----------



## rhm001

I looked through the posts again and didn't see this; sorry if I missed it. Can you list the feats the characters have?

Thanks again for all of your in-depth reporting!


----------



## FabioMilitoPagliara

how many at will have the human wizard?

how many cantrips?

what stat have the human wiz?

thanks!


----------



## Ashardalon

thalmin said:
			
		

> Here you are
> [sblock]*Ochre Jelly*, *Blue Slime* and *Gelatinous Cube* are all: Large Natural Beast (ooze)
> *Dark Creeper* Small shadow humanoid [/sblock]



Thanks!
[sblock]I'm a bit surprised that oozes aren't their own type, admittedly. I guess some oozes can be magical beasts, but I wouldn't expect humanoid or animate oozes...
I realized a bit too late that the dark creeper "isn't the creeper I am looking for," I got my wires crossed there with another monster, but I guess I have the answer I was looking for regardless.[/sblock]


----------



## Masquerade

Jonathan Moyer said:
			
		

> Yeah.  I kind of get a Whisper Gnome vibe from it - a little guy who is *fantastic* at stealth.



Throw in some riddles and you've got Dungeon Master!


----------



## ShinRyuuBR

Ashardalon said:
			
		

> [sblock]I'm a bit surprised that oozes aren't their own type, admittedly. I guess some oozes can be magical beasts, but I wouldn't expect humanoid or animate oozes...[/sblock]




Well, they do get their own subtype, just like undead.  

(Undead can be natural humanoid, shadow humanoid, shadow animate...)


----------



## Ashardalon

ShinRyuuBR said:
			
		

> Well, they do get their own subtype, just like undead.
> 
> (Undead can be natural humanoid, shadow humanoid, shadow animate...)



That's exactly what I'm talking about. 

[sblock]It makes perfect sense for undead and plant (which was what I'm shooting for with the dark one, if only to confirm it) to be subtypes under this system. I'm unconvinced that ooze is a good fit for a subtype, however.[/sblock]


----------



## Xardinhul

Hello Thalmin -

Unless I missed it, would you mind sharing some information about the half elf?  What are his statistics?  Does it list any racial powers or benefits?  Half Elves are among my favorite races and im really excited to learn more about them.  So excited that I stopped being a lurker and actually made an account so I could aks the question! *blush blush*.

Thanks in advance, cap'n.


----------



## Kahoots

Thanks a million Thalmin!

To answer a question in another thread from yesterday morning, does it mention encumbrance on the characters? Or weight of the inventory?

Thanks!


----------



## jaldaen

Do the characters list their build option, if so what are they and what do they do? Thanks


----------



## Cirex

Kahoots said:
			
		

> Thanks a million Thalmin!
> 
> To answer a question in another thread from yesterday morning, does it mention encumbrance on the characters? Or weight of the inventory?
> 
> Thanks!




I think he said that nothing about encumbrance.


----------



## Kahoots

Cirex said:
			
		

> I think he said that nothing about encumbrance.



Cool, thanks. Although I read the entire thread, I must have missed it!


----------



## Stalker0

Good info on the paladin's mark!! We also heard that the fighter's mark might be getting a change as well. Did it, or is it the one we've seen before?


----------



## Ghaerdon Fain

Thalmin, thanks for all you've given us so far, but what I'd like to know is how does the art/maps look? You've said it was full colour, does it have a nice presentation?  I'm particularly interested in the village and the way it "looks" is there a change from the past?  And are we going to blown away with this new look?

Thanks again, we all love you, just like a Gnome loves to hide   .


----------



## LrdApoc

thalmin said:
			
		

> Just got the store preview copy of Keep on the Shadowfell
> The included pregens are:
> Dwarf Fighter: Maul (2-handed), dagger, Scale mail
> Halfling Rogue: Daggers, leather
> Human Wizard: Quarterstaff, wand
> Half-Elf Cleric: Mace, crowwsbow, Chain Mail
> Dragonborn Paladin: Longsword, javelin, Heavy Plate, Heavy Shield




Wow, you mean the retail owners are not under an NDA like the press is for releases like this? Seems like bad practice on WotC's part..


----------



## Kordeth

LrdApoc said:
			
		

> Wow, you mean the retail owners are not under an NDA like the press is for releases like this? Seems like bad practice on WotC's part..




Leaving aside the practicality of collecting NDA forms from every game store owner who receives a shipment of KotS, why on earth would WotC put them under NDA about an in-store preview copy of the adventure sent out early to drum up interest in the product?


----------



## Voss

LrdApoc said:
			
		

> Wow, you mean the retail owners are not under an NDA like the press is for releases like this? Seems like bad practice on WotC's part..




NDAing every retailer in the country (and any distributors along the chain, no less) for for what is essentially advertising material seems fairly ludicrous.

Yaargh, ninjered!


----------



## Westwind

Any chance we could get a peek at the powers the fighter is assigned?  I'm a sucker for maul-wielders (goes back to my L5R Crab Clan days).


----------



## beverson

Thalmin, could you please post the complete text of the Paladin's Divine Challenge?  I'd like to see if anything else changed besides the text we've seen, like maybe adding the Melee keyword...


----------



## Festivus

Do they give level 1, 2 and 3 pregens or are there options when levelling?  

If you covered this already please ignore this, the thread is rather long and easy to miss stuff.


----------



## Shado

Festivus said:
			
		

> Do they give level 1, 2 and 3 pregens or are there options when levelling?
> 
> If you covered this already please ignore this, the thread is rather long and easy to miss stuff.




They give the powers and feats the character gain.  No choices available, unfortunately.


----------



## lvl20dm

As I recall, the Fighter has the following Exploits: At Will - Cleave, Reaping Strike (STR damage on a miss); Encounter - Sweeping Strike (weapon damage and knock down); Daily - Brute Strike. They gave him a Utility power that gave him 2d6+Con temp hp at level 2. At level 3 he got an encounter power - I'm having trouble recalling the specifics, but it did extra damage. People have mentioned that he was less "sticky", but he seemed to have the same Combat Challenge and Combat Superiority abilities. He was easier to hit, as he had no shield. 

The most confusing thing for me was the Half-elf Cleric - I saw no evidence of any multiclassing despite the fact that Tira clearly did (with the Wizard power). His level one Daily was fantastic, though. It did less damage, but it weakend the enemy and hit or miss it gave a +5 to the healing received by any ally for the rest of the encounter.


----------



## Ashrem Bayle

I want to know what the adventure is about! Can you give us a synopsis? How much is of the adventure takes place in the Keep? How many encounters are there? etc.

Any magic items? What are they like?

Spoil us! (Just be sure to use spoiler tags. )


----------



## pukunui

Darkwolf71 said:
			
		

> I thought this was something they said would be incuded. Gonna be tricky for me to 'guess' at scaling for my 8 players.



I'm thinking it should be fairly easy to scale. The whole concept is that instead of matching up a party of adventurers with a single monster, like 3.x did, 4e matches up a party of adventurers with a party of monsters (and if you want to mix things up, you can swap a monster for lots of lower level ones or fewer higher level ones). So if you have 8 players, you just need to make sure that the encounters that are supposed to be a fair fight (as opposed to the ones that are supposed to be easy or hard) have enough monsters in them to "equal" a party of 8. Make sense?


----------



## CoarseDragon

Sorry if I missed this but is there a disclaimer in the book that says something like these feats/powers/skills may be changed in the real [PHB] 4th Ed.?


----------



## pukunui

CoarseDragon said:
			
		

> Sorry if I missed this but is there a disclaimer in the book that says something like these feats/powers/skills may be changed in the real [PHB] 4th Ed.?



 No, you're not allowed to change anything about the pregens. If you do, your copy of the adventure will spontaneously combust.


----------



## Boarstorm

pukunui said:
			
		

> No, you're not allowed to change anything about the pregens. If you do, your copy of the adventure will spontaneously combust.




You miss the point, methinks.  He's asking if there may be changes to the rules/powers/etc themselves -- as in, is the module using the completed ruleset, or something more akin to those used at D&D Experience.


----------



## Cirex

pukunui said:
			
		

> No, you're not allowed to change anything about the pregens. If you do, your copy of the adventure will spontaneously combust.




I think you misunderstood him. I think what's he's asking is if there's a warning saying that powers, feats, skills, etc. may be different in the retail version.


----------



## Spatula

lvl20dm said:
			
		

> The most confusing thing for me was the Half-elf Cleric - I saw no evidence of any multiclassing despite the fact that Tira clearly did (with the Wizard power).



So, the half-elf warlock pregen probably had the wizard initiate feat.


----------



## pukunui

Boarstorm said:
			
		

> You miss the point, methinks.  He's asking if there may be changes to the rules/powers/etc themselves -- as in, is the module using the completed ruleset, or something more akin to those used at D&D Experience.





			
				Cirex said:
			
		

> I think you misunderstood him. I think what's he's asking is if there's a warning saying that powers, feats, skills, etc. may be different in the retail version.



Yes. Fair enough. My bad. Still funny though ...


----------



## Ashardalon

Something I forgot to ask - are there any references to the alignments lawful (without good or evil attached), chaotic (ditto), chaotic good, and/or lawful evil?


----------



## Shado

Spatula said:
			
		

> So, the half-elf warlock pregen probably had the wizard initiate feat.




Only if Half-elves start with a bonus feat, like humans.

Tira's 1st level feat is Action Surge.

Is it possible that our KotS Half-elven friend has a less obvious trait that's already factored into the numbers?


----------



## Cirex

pukunui said:
			
		

> Yes. Fair enough. My bad. Still funny though ...




Well, only a handful of people can test if the book really implode if you try to change the pregens


----------



## rhm001

Spatula said:
			
		

> So, the half-elf warlock pregen probably had the wizard initiate feat.




Maybe, but I don't think so. Looking at the Tira sheet again, she only had four skills, and Arcana---the automatic skill for the Wizard multiclass feat---wasn't one of them. If she had the feat, she'd get the skill too. 

Maybe the new Cleric has an extra Cleric ability? We don't know whether you can take something from your own class. It wouldn't be as "nifty" as picking up another class's, but it might be useful for a specific build or concept... Also, there might be a paladin ability that the cleric took that looks a lot like it should be a cleric attack, so it's not obvious.


----------



## pukunui

Cirex said:
			
		

> Well, only a handful of people can test if the book really implode if you try to change the pregens



_*Seattle, Washington*: A Renton man received minor burns to his hands and face today when a book he was holding spontaneously combusted. The man, an employee of local gaming company Wizards of the Coast, said he was attempting to customize the pregenerated characters that came with his proof copy of Wizards' Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition release, H1: Keep on the Shadowfell. The Wizards staffer, who asked not to be named, said, "I wasn't particularly happy with the pregens that Mike [Mearls] and Bruce [Cordell] came up with so I wanted to tweak them a little bit ... well, really, it was just an excuse to have a play with my first-run copies of the core 4th Edition rulebooks. I guess I should have read the fineprint before trying any customization ... That [Mearls] really is Chaotic Evil!" The man was taken to hospital, where he received treatment for his burns, as well as a nice steaming mug of hot chocolate, and will be at home recovering for the rest of the week. "I just hope all my things are still in my cubicle when I get back," he said. "I don't want to point any fingers, but I suspect this might have been an attempt by my some of my colleagues to kill me and take my stuff. They're always talking about doing that ..." Fellow Wizards staffers Mike Mearls and Bruce Cordell, the authors of the self-combusting book, were not available for comment._


----------



## Kahoots

Too funny, Pukunui!


----------



## invokethehojo

CoarseDragon said:
			
		

> Sorry if I missed this but is there a disclaimer in the book that says something like these feats/powers/skills may be changed in the real [PHB] 4th Ed.?




I don't know of any disclaimer but in the writer's blog he mentions it being hard to  finish because the rules kept changing.  He wanted to make sure all the rules jived before the final revision of the adventure.


----------



## pukunui

Kahoots said:
			
		

> Too funny, Pukunui!



Thanks! 

I added a little bit to the end.


----------



## SPECTRE666

Kordeth said:
			
		

> Leaving aside the practicality of collecting NDA forms from every game store owner who receives a shipment of KotS, why on earth would WotC put them under NDA about an in-store preview copy of the adventure sent out early to drum up interest in the product?



-Ding, ding, ding!!! +1


*SPECTRE666*


----------



## thalmin

Just a brief post (my game starts soon)
I just realized a couple changes in the Fighter's Combat Challenge:


> Every time you attack an enemy, *whether that attack hits or misses*, you can choose to mark that target. The mark lasts until the end of your next turn. While a target is marked, it takes a -2 penalty to attack rolls if its attack doesn't include you as a target. A creature can be subject to only one mark at a time. A new mark supersedes a mark that was already in place.
> In addition whenever an enemy that is adjacent to you shifts *or makes an attack that does not include you, *you can make a melee basic attack against that enemy *as an immediate interrupt.*



Also Combat Superiority has changed. It is now simply


> *Combat Superiority*: You gain a +2 bonus to opportunity attacks.


----------



## Sojorn

No movement stopping?

Interesting.


----------



## cyberpunk

> Just a brief post (my game starts soon)
> I just realized a couple changes in the Fighter's Combat Challenge:
> Quote:
> Every time you attack an enemy, whether that attack hits or misses, you can choose to mark that target. The mark lasts until the end of your next turn. While a target is marked, it takes a -2 penalty to attack rolls if its attack doesn't include you as a target. A creature can be subject to only one mark at a time. A new mark supersedes a mark that was already in place.
> In addition whenever an enemy that is adjacent to you shifts or makes an attack that does not include you, you can make a melee basic attack against that enemy as an immediate interrupt.
> 
> Also Combat Superiority has changed. It is now simply
> Quote:
> Combat Superiority: You gain a +2 bonus to opportunity attacks.




Hmm.  That really makes the fighter less impressive, unless the pregen "stop move" was some fighter option / ability that the fighter included in Shadowfell doesn't have.

Also, I believe the "whether attacks or misses" isn't really new, per se, but rather clarification--the old wording of "when you attack" made it clear that it applied regardless.

That said, the attack on an adjacent target ability is nice.  Perhaps the fighter gets to choose between the stop-move and the stop-adjacent attack ability?  That would sort of make sense--somewhat thematically different.  

The stop-adjacent attack ability does admittedly let you stand next to the wizard (or whoever), and "defend" them, but then you open yourself to nasty area attacks in a way that you were not previously (plus a whole host of other problems).


----------



## LFK

Sojorn said:
			
		

> No movement stopping?
> 
> Interesting.



This is probably a result of being Fighter(two-handed weapon) instead of Fighter(weapon and shield).


----------



## Rechan

LFK said:
			
		

> This is probably a result of being Fighter(two-handed weapon) instead of Fighter(weapon and shield).



Aye.

In fact, I bet the "If they attack someone that isn't you, you get to smack them" might be the two handed option, instead of the sticky option.


----------



## Sojorn

LFK said:
			
		

> This is probably a result of being Fighter(two-handed weapon) instead of Fighter(weapon and shield).



That would make a good deal of sense and was the first possibility that occurred to me.

But they also just might have changed the movement halting to a feat, gotten rid of it completely or any number of other things.

"HURRY UP JUNE!"


----------



## Shroomy

I visited one of our LGS's today and besides buying two near pristine copies of _Dungeon_ 15 and 16 for $.50 each (Sweeeet!!!!!), I got to view _Keep on the Shadowfell_ for an uninterrupted 10 minutes.  Now, I didn't read it in-depth, but on first viewing, it seems very impressive.  Some thoughts and impressions:

*While I didn't have major problems with the 3.5e delve format, I think that the 4e format is far superior.  Instead of splitting the information up into two places, everything is integrated together, keeping the delve's strengths without interrupting readability.

*The format is two booklets, three mini-scale maps, all in a cardboard folder.  My only problem with this format is the paperstock.  Its more like a flimsy magazine, so durability may be an issue for some groups; the covers also seem like they may tear easier.

*There is a social skill challenge, though it doesn't really use the template previewed in the DMG excerpt.

*There are no new skills presented in the adventure's quick-play rules.

*There are no alignments that we haven't seen.

*The dominate condition allows the attacker to take control of its target for one round.  They can only make the target use an at-will power.


----------



## pukunui

Shroomy said:
			
		

> *While I didn't have major problems with the 3.5e delve format, I think that the 4e format is far superior.  Instead of splitting the information up into two places, everything is integrated together, keeping the delve's strengths without interrupting readability.



Hallelujah! That's exactly what I was hoping they would do.


----------



## ZetaStriker

Shroomy said:
			
		

> *The dominate condition allows the attacker to take control of its target for one round.  They can only make the target use an at-will power.




I so want to see a badly injured, dominated Warlock Eyebite the party Cleric so he can't be found and healed before getting dropped next turn. XD


----------



## Green Knight

ZetaStriker said:
			
		

> I so want to see a badly injured, dominated Warlock Eyebite the party Cleric so he can't be found and healed before getting dropped next turn. XD




Holy crap, that'd be awesome! LOL!


----------



## Torchlyte

ZetaStriker said:
			
		

> I so want to see a badly injured, dominated Warlock Eyebite the party Cleric so he can't be found and healed before getting dropped next turn. XD




That is made of win (for the DM).


----------



## Shado

ZetaStriker said:
			
		

> I so want to see a badly injured, dominated Warlock Eyebite the party Cleric so he can't be found and healed before getting dropped next turn. XD




I don't believe the Cleric's Healing Word requires line of sight.  Just needs to be within' 5 squares.


----------



## ZetaStriker

Aw, my evil play is ruined! And I would've gotten away with it if it weren't for you darn kids, and your dog too!


----------



## Shroomy

ZetaStriker said:
			
		

> Aw, my evil play is ruined! And I would've gotten away with it if it weren't for you darn kids, and your dog too!




Have him eyebite and then move away from the cleric.


----------



## Zaukrie

I'm highly disappointed that 4 of the maps are re-prints (w/o the DDM stuff) of maps from the forgotten locations' line. I expect new art. This is very annoying.


----------



## occam

thalmin said:
			
		

> Just a brief post (my game starts soon)
> I just realized a couple changes in the Fighter's Combat Challenge:
> 
> Also Combat Superiority has changed. It is now simply




Well, that would negate the paladin/fighter combo that's been brought up, where the pally marks and hangs back firing ranged attacks, while the fighter keeps the marked opponent from moving to engage the pally. For the fighter to get an immediate interrupt, she has to mark the opponent, which would get rid of the pally's mark.


----------



## lvl20dm

While Dominated, characters are also dazed - they only get to make one action (minor, move, or standard). 

Some of the numbers on these characters are interesting. The Damage from Divine Challenge from the Paladin is 6 instead of 8 - since his Wis is 13, I think damage is 5+Wis mod. (and maybe half level? wasn't clear). He also only had one lay on hands, which makes me think that is determined by Wis as well. The Paladin also had a +7 basic attack with his longsword; he's STR 18 and doesn't have Weapon Focus or anything - they didn't list a +1 class feature bonus to attack like they did with the Fighter (who receives a +1 to attack with 2-hnd Weapons). I'm guessing that longswords are Prof. 3, though Riardon (the Ranger Pregen) creates a discrepancy. As others have noted, the Paladin also had one less Channel Divinity power.

The Fighter's Combat Superiority is indeed different - we know that Fighter abilities have changed since DDXP, so I think they are making the Fighter wait for this ability or pay for it with a feat. He does not appear to gain anything in place of it with his combat challenge or other class features. It should be noted that this ability significantly impacts the ranged Paladin divine challenge tactic that people have discussed. 

I think the Half-elf is messed up. James Wyatt said they get built in multiclassing, this one doesn't have it(unless it is hidden, but all the race stuff is discussed up front with the other characters). I think they may have cut it out to save space...seriously - his entry is very crowded already. He gets a sweet encounter power at 3rd level that does something like 2d8+Wis damage and gives (hit or miss) combat advantage against that enemy for one ally.


----------



## Mouseferatu

occam said:
			
		

> For the fighter to get an immediate interrupt, she has to mark the opponent, which would get rid of the pally's mark.




The rule say the fighter _can_ mark anyone she attacks, not that she _must_ or does so automatically.


----------



## dervish

> The rule say the fighter can mark anyone she attacks, not that she must or does so automatically.



I believe he's referring to that the target must be marked for the fighter to be able to perform the interrupt attack. Something that is not the case as far as I can see.


----------



## FireLance

lvl20dm said:
			
		

> Some of the numbers on these characters are interesting. The Damage from Divine Challenge from the Paladin is 6 instead of 8 - since his Wis is 13, I think damage is 5+Wis mod. (and maybe half level? wasn't clear).



This doesn't gel with what Stephen Radney-MacFarland (Associate Developer, RPG R&D, Wizards of the Coast) said in another thread:


			
				Adso said:
			
		

> You can take thrown (simple) weapons with the paladin, but it's never the best option, since your weapon powers are almost always melee, and your ranged powers are almost always implement powers. If you use this "throw build" you'll end up doing basic attacks with ranged (meaning you'll have to build in a higher Dex than you normally would) and *trying not tanking your Cha (since you want to get the most damage you can out of your divine challenge ability)* even then I don't think it’ll work very well. You are better off, using your challenge, marking foes, and keeping them on you, and then attacking with powers that grant allies bonuses to AC, grant temporary hit points, or that move your opponent away from you or your allies (making your target work to come get you or take your radiant damage, all of which is fine defending if you ask me).



One possibility is that the base damage for Divine Challenge has been reduced, and it is now 3 + Charisma bonus.


----------



## Stalker0

FireLance said:
			
		

> One possibility is that the base damage for Divine Challenge has been reduced, and it is now 3 + Charisma bonus.




I think that makes sense. I mean 8 damage at 1st level is a LOT!!


----------



## mach1.9pants

dervish said:
			
		

> I believe he's referring to that the target must be marked for the fighter to be able to perform the interrupt attack. Something that is not the case as far as I can see.



I agree. The free attack is an additional use of the power.


----------



## Stogoe

Do you think this means that if a sword and board fighter wants to prevent an enemy from disengaging him, he'll have to override the paladin's mark?


----------



## mach1.9pants

Yes, exactly. Only one mark at a time......
....Derren can now love 4E


----------



## malraux

This would be some much easier if they'd just release the rules.


----------



## FireLance

Stogoe said:
			
		

> Do you think this means that if a sword and board fighter wants to prevent an enemy from disengaging him, he'll have to override the paladin's mark?



Not really. Based on the text, the fighter does not have to mark an opponent he attacks, and the immediate interrupt basic attack works with any adjacent enemy, not just those he has marked.


----------



## bjorn2bwild

first off, a humongous thank you to thalmin for giving us all of these sweet scoops.

One thing I'd like to ask (that I haven't seen so far in this thread) is can you list the fighter's damage with his maul?

I'm wondering if we can determine what the benefits are for wielding weapons two handed.


----------



## lvl20dm

The Fighter is doing 2d6+3 with the Maul with a +6 to the basic attack. He is STR 16 and is getting a +1 to attack with 2-hnd weapons as a Class Feature. Looks like the big advantage to 2-hnd weapons is simple damage (and likely Power choices).


----------



## AsmodeusDM

*Looks pretty good...*

I think several other people have already done so, but I stopped by my FLGS today too after work and after mentioning that I knew about the staff pulled it out from beneath the counter. They know me and that store is mostly for comics so I got to sit with the packet for about 20 minutes.

The adventure itself looks to be IMHO exciting. 


Spoiler



The adventure details 3-4 wilderness encounters. Mostly kobolds and the like.

The keep has two levels. The actual layout of the keep seems very very similar to Sunless Citadel (from way back in 2000).

The first level is pretty large and contains lots of rooms and encounters, I'd say 10.

The second level is smaller, but the rooms are also a lot bigger. Including the big "main rift" area. 

The whole thing seems pretty combat intensive. I did see one room with a trap style encounter. A central statue that swings around a big sword with dragon statues in the corners that breathe fire.

There's two? dialogue/roleplaying spots within the adventure that I could see.

The fights themselves.. well boy they are sure going to take getting used to. Even with the minion rules it's so daunting to see an encounter with 16 enemy models in it. The encounter areas are big and the design seems to be solid.

I didn't read completely in depth.. but I am worried that some of the fights could be a little lack-luster on the enviroment side. i.e. instead of a 30 x 30 room with orcs it's now a 60 x 60 room with 10 kobolds. but maybe I"m just missing something.

The maps look good.. but I'm a little miffed by their uber-D&Dminis-esque nature. They don't have map labels.. but one wilderness map has a sacred circle type thing with the +2 to hit bonus. 

That's fine for minis.. not so much for core D&D.. 

I was really hoping to get something more along the lines of what I got in Red Hand of Doom (that was fantastic!!)



Also too I haven't read through every post. But I know that the one ability the fighter gets at 3rd level is a melee attack that's 3[W]+Str damage, BUT, it's 1/encounter... not daily 


Might head back tomorrow to peruse some more!!!


----------



## bjorn2bwild

lvl20dm said:
			
		

> The Fighter is doing 2d6+3 with the Maul with a +6 to the basic attack. He is STR 16 and is getting a +1 to attack with 2-hnd weapons as a Class Feature. Looks like the big advantage to 2-hnd weapons is simple damage (and likely Power choices).




Awesome.  And thanks also to you for providing this and much other crunchy goodness


----------



## Primal

thalmin said:
			
		

> The adventure announces to the DM where some "Safe Havens" are, places the party can take an extended rest. Also, notes where characters may have leveled up at the end of a couple encounters.
> 
> There are some encounter areas which are not included on the poster maps, so a Battle Mat or Dungeon Tiles will be helpful (no layouts suggested for the Dungeon Tiles, unfortunately). Perhaps DDI will provide downloadable maps?
> 
> edit: The back of the package does say "For use with these ... products:" then lists the core books, D&D Miniatures, and D&D Dungeon Tiles.




Instant Level-Ups? I'm looking at you, MMORPGs/CRPGs. Does the adventure include some nice melodies that the DM can play whenever that happens? Or Quest Cards that you can hand out saying: "LEVEL UP: You heal to your maximum HPs and all your spent powers are restored. Refer to PHB to pick your new abilities." ;P


----------



## Primal

Simon Marks said:
			
		

> "I punch the Iron Golem, hitting AC 44!"
> "You break your hand"
> "Huh"
> "Seriously, have you every tried punching Iron? Your hand would break well before you did anything to the Iron."
> 
> Why should Rogues (or Fighters) be constrained by the Laws of Physics when no-one else is?




I was referring to the fact that you're able to "shift" *any* monster/NPC, regardless of its INT. Why would an iron golem or bulette even *care* about trying to dodge a dagger?

As for punching an Iron Golem, haven't seen that happen, ever (monks are banned in my group).


----------



## Jhaelen

Zaukrie said:
			
		

> I'm highly disappointed that 4 of the maps are re-prints (w/o the DDM stuff) of maps from the forgotten locations' line. I expect new art. This is very annoying.



Ooh, really? That's bad. Which maps are these? The ones from Fields of Ruin?


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

Primal said:
			
		

> Instant Level-Ups? I'm looking at you, MMORPGs/CRPGs. Does the adventure include some nice melodies that the DM can play whenever that happens? Or Quest Cards that you can hand out saying: "LEVEL UP: You heal to your maximum HPs and all your spent powers are restored. Refer to PHB to pick your new abilities." ;P




Why would you give quest cards for leveling up? Quests grant XP? Do you want to create an XP _perpetuum mobile_? 

I think the DM is required to whistle the melodies. I think I made that up read that in some blog. I suppose they might offer some sounds in the DDI at a later date.

Instant Level Ups are not the same as "places" where the characters might have leveled up. Our group always uses natural pauses (like evening rest) to calculate and hand out XP. But we've given up training rules nearly since day one. (And our sessions are long enough that it's possible to level up twice during a session, if we started already close to the next level)



> I was referring to the fact that you're able to "shift" *any* monster/NPC, regardless of its INT. Why would an iron golem or bulette even *care* about trying to dodge a dagger?



They just don't want to get killed. It's not the Iron Golems directive to be destroyed, and the bulette dislikes pain, too.


----------



## Fiendish Dire Weasel

I'm a little disturbed by of the 5 PCs, 3 are "Good" and 2 are "Lawful Good". It seems like they fiddled with Alignment since the DDXP characters maybe?

Also, looking the Half-Elf Cleric over, I can only say that it looks like they messed up his sheet or we totally don't understand what the racial bonuses are for them. These sheets stated the human bonuses of +1 defenses, extra feat and extra at-will power (and notes they're already added), but the half elf only seems to get +1 group diplomacy and racial skill bonuses.

I believe Paladin Divine Challenge damage is 3+Cha (5+Wis seems less likley).

Both the Fighter and Paladin Challenge/Marking things seem adjusted (discussed elsewhere).

The Cleric is very poorly built it seems. He has an amazing melee-based Encounter power, but his melee sucks and his at-wills are both Wis-based ranged attacks (a fantastic healing-oriented daily and we finally see the ubiquitous Cure Light Wounds).


----------



## hong

Primal said:
			
		

> I was referring to the fact that you're able to "shift" *any* monster/NPC, regardless of its INT. Why would an iron golem or bulette even *care* about trying to dodge a dagger?




And yet, iron golems and bulettes gain Dex bonus to AC.


----------



## pukunui

Primal said:
			
		

> Instant Level-Ups? I'm looking at you, MMORPGs/CRPGs. Does the adventure include some nice melodies that the DM can play whenever that happens? Or Quest Cards that you can hand out saying: "LEVEL UP: You heal to your maximum HPs and all your spent powers are restored. Refer to PHB to pick your new abilities." ;P



 How are you reading "... notes where characters may have leveled up ..." as "instant level up"? Don't forget that this adventure has pregenerated characters with pregenerated level increases. If you're using them, you don't get to pick anything out of the PHB. You just get what's written in the quick start guide, so leveling up isn't as big a deal really.


----------



## Nom

thalmin said:
			
		

> Dragonborn Str 18, Con 12, Dex 10, Int 11, Wis 13, Cha 16
> Rogue Str 12, Con 13, Dex 18, Int 11, Wis 10, Cha 16





			
				Verys Arkon said:
			
		

> Those both add up to 32 using the point-buy Totoro came up with  (Method B in PrRC).



They are also both a 16,14,13,12,11,10 array (with racials on the 16 and 14), or, as previously noted, a 30 point buy using 3.5.

Totoro might be right, but his system did look rather complicated.  It's equally possible that the sample pregens weren't strictly legal using the final ruleset.


----------



## thalmin

Primal said:
			
		

> Instant Level-Ups? I'm looking at you, MMORPGs/CRPGs. Does the adventure include some nice melodies that the DM can play whenever that happens? Or Quest Cards that you can hand out saying: "LEVEL UP: You heal to your maximum HPs and all your spent powers are restored. Refer to PHB to pick your new abilities." ;P



Probable level-ups are announced after sufficient XPs have been made available if no encounters have been skipped. Instructions are then given how to level, *after the characters take an extended rest.*


----------



## Primal

hong said:
			
		

> And yet, iron golems and bulettes gain Dex bonus to AC.




Certainly, but I don't think they would specifically care about someone throwing daggers at them -- at least not enough to shift. They don't do that even though a fighter's attack would inflict 3 X [W] + bonuses damage. And this rogue attack shifts a monster if it hits, which feels even weirder.


----------



## Primal

thalmin said:
			
		

> Probable level-ups are announced after sufficient XPs have been made available if no encounters have been skipped. Instructions are then given how to level, *after the characters take an extended rest.*




I permit leveling up only after the adventure is ended and the PCs have time to relax and rest (for more than just 6 hours) in safety.


----------



## Fiendish Dire Weasel

Primal said:
			
		

> I permit leveling up only after the adventure is ended and the PCs have time to relax and rest (for more than just 6 hours) in safety.




I guess it depends on how you view the metagamey aspects of leveling.


----------



## thalmin

There is a sidebar describing how to handle an ambush. Essentially, anyone failing Perception checks is surprised and gives the opponants Combat Advantage. Those who make their P check may act during the surprise round, those that fail do not act until their Initiative the next round.


----------



## pukunui

Primal said:
			
		

> I permit leveling up only after the adventure is ended and the PCs have time to relax and rest (for more than just 6 hours) in safety.



So if you ran this adventure, which is intended to take characters to level three, would you make your players go through the whole thing at level one?

I'm not trying to belittle your method. It's actually something I would prefer to do myself. I just don't see how you can do it with premade modules that assume characters level up during the course of the adventure. If you're writing your own adventures, it's easy enough to include just enough encounters that they'll get just enough XP to level up only after it's over, but I don't see how it would work with premade modules that assume mid-adventuring leveling is going to happen.


----------



## FunkBGR

Thalmin - 

Are the maps orginal maps? I got the impression that they are, and your comment just meant that they were like the DDM maps, and could easily be used as such, except they don't have the victory point areas.

Just trying to clear up the confusion about maps.


----------



## thalmin

Some creatures, like the dwarf, are resistant to forced shifts, moving X squares less than the forced shift would otherwise move them. Perhaps Iron Golems and large creatures have similar?


----------



## Domon

> I was referring to the fact that you're able to "shift" *any* monster/NPC, regardless of its INT. Why would an iron golem or bulette even *care* about trying to dodge a dagger?




i'd let the player describe it, and if no one of the other players is against the description, i'd rule it's ok. for instance, maybe he threw the dagger under the monster foot, making it slip or disorienting it


----------



## thalmin

FunkBGR said:
			
		

> Thalmin -
> 
> Are the maps orginal maps? I got the impression that they are, and your comment just meant that they were like the DDM maps, and could easily be used as such, except they don't have the victory point areas.
> 
> Just trying to clear up the confusion about maps.



I am not intimately familiar with all the maps from DDM or from Fantastic Locations, but I was informed by a DDM champion at my store that some of the maps are recycled, though cleaned up and possibly altered (like Blood Rock removed).


----------



## AllisterH

Primal said:
			
		

> I permit leveling up only after the adventure is ended and the PCs have time to relax and rest (for more than just 6 hours) in safety.




Interesting...Coming from DMing/playing 1e/2e, I always levelled up the characters as soon as they hit the right amount (otherwise you were potentially screwing over the faster xp classes).

Did 3.x change this?


----------



## Heselbine

I think it would be wise not to stick to any previous version 'dogma' until you've seen how the whole game fits together.

It's very easy to make a change without understanding the big picture of why things are like they are.


----------



## thalmin

I would appreciate it if discussions/debates of ways you run your games were taken to a different thread so folks interested in finding out more about KotS don't have to wade through lengthy derailments. Just my request, I'm not a mod.


----------



## hong

Primal said:
			
		

> Certainly, but I don't think they would specifically care about someone throwing daggers at them -- at least not enough to shift.




They care about someone throwing daggers at them precisely as much as anyone with a Dex bonus to AC cares about someone throwing daggers at them.


----------



## Ghaerdon Fain

Does it mention how and when an enemy will retreat and what penalties and tactics are used?


----------



## thalmin

Ghaerdon Fain said:
			
		

> Does it mention how and when an enemy will retreat and what penalties and tactics are used?



Yes. Tactics for each encounter, retreat info for some.


----------



## Delgar

I don's uppose you'd like to post some of the other characters abilties?


----------



## thalmin

Which would you like? I don't recall what I've covered.


----------



## thalmin

There is an ability possessed by an npc called 
Battle Fury
Immediate Reaction when first Bloodied; Encounter
...makes a melee basic attack with a +4 bonus to the attack roll, and does a bonus +1d6 on a hit.


----------



## beverson

thalmin said:
			
		

> Which would you like? I don't recall what I've covered.




You probably missed my previous request - can you post the entirety of the Paladin's Divine Challenge?  I want to compare it to the DDXP version to see if anything else has changed besides the text we've already seen.

thanks!


----------



## Delgar

I'd like to see some of the PC's abilities. Namely the fighter/wizard/rogue/cleric (in that order).


----------



## Ashrem Bayle

Primal said:
			
		

> Certainly, but I don't think they would specifically care about someone throwing daggers at them -- at least not enough to shift. They don't do that even though a fighter's attack would inflict 3 X [W] + bonuses damage. And this rogue attack shifts a monster if it hits, which feels even weirder.




Who says they are dodging? A dagger in the knee may well cause you to stumble a few steps.


----------



## parvatiquinta

thalmin said:
			
		

> Probable level-ups are announced after sufficient XPs have been made available if no encounters have been skipped. Instructions are then given how to level, *after the characters take an extended rest.*




What?! But that's Daggerfall! Videogame! Boo! Evil!

(couldn't help myself  )


----------



## thalmin

beverson said:
			
		

> You probably missed my previous request - can you post the entirety of the Paladin's Divine Challenge?  I want to compare it to the DDXP version to see if anything else has changed besides the text we've already seen.
> 
> thanks!



Divine Challenge
At-Will  Divine, Radiant
Minor Action   Close burst 5
Target: One creature in burst
Effect: You mark the target. If the creature was already marked, your mark supersedes the previous one. The target remains marked until you use this power against another target, or you fail to engage the target (see below). A creature can be subject to only one mark at a time. A new mark supersedes a mark that was already in place.
While a target is marked, it takes a -2 penalty to attack rolls and takes *6* radiant damage if it makes an attack doesn't include you as a target. The target takes this damage only once per turn. (me. Hmm. Looks like this would also affect OAs)
On your turn, you must engage the target you challenged or challenge a different target. To engage the target, you must either attack it or end your turn adjacent to it. If none of these events occur by the end of your turn, the marked condition ends and you can't use Divine Challenge on your next turn.
You can use Divine Challenge once per turn.


----------



## ozprince

Thanks thalmin.

What are the adventure rewards like magic item wise? 4E is meant to really tone down the magic items and I am wondering how many appear in this adventure and how good they are, and if they do more than to hit and damage or copy spells.


----------



## ShinRyuuBR

Thalmin, is there an enervated condition? In DDM, enervated is the same condition as weakened as you described to us, so I'm curious if it's just a name change or if enervated works diferrently in D&D RPG. Thanks!


----------



## jaldaen

Delgar said:
			
		

> I'd like to see some of the PC's abilities. Namely the fighter/wizard/rogue/cleric (in that order).




I'll second this request with a specific interest in their build benefit (ex: Rogue's Tactics:Artful Dodger/Brawny Rogue). If fact do they point which tactic the Pre-gens are and the specific benefit? Thanks


----------



## Klaus

Hey, thalmin, could you describe the following creatures (no need for full stats, just a quick description):

[sblock]
Goblin Cutters
Guard Drakes
Human Rabble
Hobgoblin Torturer
Decrepit Skeletons
Skeleton Knight
Large Blue Slime
Corruption Corpses
Zombie Rotters
Clay Scout
Deathlock wight[/sblock]


----------



## jaldaen

One more request... there seems to be a lot of hoopla going on about the half-elf cleric being weaker than the other classes and not matching up with the Pre-Release Rules Compilation... do you mind posting the half-elf so us designers can break it down in comparison to the half-elf from D&DXP. Thanks


----------



## Verys Arkon

I'd like to add my thanks to Thalmin, lvl20dm, and Shroomy too, for all this wonderful crunch.

For those that use the PrRC:  Just a note though in case people haven't heard, I won't be adding any details from KotS to the PrRC, unless someone from WotC says 'go ahead' (please, do!), as KotS isn't released as promotion or preview.  At most, I'll erase errors, or add names of powers to PrRC and say "See KotS".

As much as I'd like to continue compiling the material, I have to draw the line someplace.  I'll continue to add material from the excerpts though.     

Verys.


----------



## occam

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> The rule say the fighter _can_ mark anyone she attacks, not that she _must_ or does so automatically.




I was reading the description as saying that the immediate interrupt ability was part of the marking effect, but it looks like that was a misread. Maybe that's just how I think it should work; a fighter has the potential to be uber-scary without that limitation. "Stay away from the fighter!"


----------



## FabioMilitoPagliara

Can you tell us some details on the human wizard?

I would like to know

1) how many at-will power it have?
2) which ones?
3) how many trained skills?
4) how many cantrips?
5) which ones?
6) what daily he have and can it chose them?


thank you again!


----------



## jaldaen

Do the Pregens let you know what armors/weapons they are proficient in just in case you pick up an enemy's weapon or want to switch armors? If so, what are each classes' armor and weapon proficiencies? Thanks


----------



## Talaeden_Denthiir

To Thalmin and all of the others that are giving us this information, Thank You   

  Can you please tell us if there is different equipment/weapons/armor to buy as you level up?

                        and
  Can you please give info on the zombie abilities?


----------



## Vael

Thanks for all the info. My question: what are the other pregen's utility powers? Wizards get Expeditious Retreat, what do the others get?


----------



## functionciccio

AllisterH said:
			
		

> Interesting...Coming from DMing/playing 1e/2e, I always levelled up the characters as soon as they hit the right amount (otherwise you were potentially screwing over the faster xp classes).
> 
> Did 3.x change this?




No.


----------



## Kishin

Primal said:
			
		

> Instant Level-Ups? I'm looking at you, MMORPGs/CRPGs. Does the adventure include some nice melodies that the DM can play whenever that happens? Or Quest Cards that you can hand out saying: "LEVEL UP: You heal to your maximum HPs and all your spent powers are restored. Refer to PHB to pick your new abilities." ;P




There must be a point based prize giveaway for comments like this. Its the only reason I can figure for why people continually repeat them as if they were any sort of contribution to a discussion.   



			
				Shroomy said:
			
		

> *The dominate condition allows the attacker to take control of its target for one round. They can only make the target use an at-will power




That's an incredibly lame nerf, and I'm pretty sure I won't be abiding by it. 

Dunno I'll make it so that a dominated PC expends their encounter/daily if its used by the dominator, but you can rest assured they'll be able to do it.


----------



## Valdrax

functionciccio said:
			
		

> AllisterH said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting...Coming from DMing/playing 1e/2e, I always levelled up the characters as soon as they hit the right amount (otherwise you were potentially screwing over the faster xp classes).
> 
> Did 3.x change this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No.
Click to expand...


Actually, yes.  In 3e, the amount of XP you get from an encounter of a certain CR goes down as you go up in level.  (Your class has no influence on how fast you level; all classes level at the same rate).  

Therefore, waiting until the end of the session to calculate earned XP per CR will result in better XP gain than if you leveled ASAP.  This "lower level levels faster" mechanic was also why burning XP to make magic items wasn't as bad of an idea as most people initially thought.


----------



## RigaMortus2

Winterhaven...  Population 977...  And according to the map, only 11 buildings in town.  So that means the average building houses about 88 people.  Ok...


----------



## Seule

Kishin said:
			
		

> Dunno I'll make it so that a dominated PC expends their encounter/daily if its used by the dominator, but you can rest assured they'll be able to do it.




I'd wait for the full rules before making pronouncements like this. Maybe what you are describing is possible with a more potent power? There may be other things we don't know about.

As an addendum, I just dropped by my FLGS, and they had the preview copy too. I couldn't stop to examine it closely, though.

  --Penn


----------



## Valdrax

jaldaen said:
			
		

> One more request... there seems to be a lot of hoopla going on about the half-elf cleric being weaker than the other classes and not matching up with the Pre-Release Rules Compilation... do you mind posting the half-elf so us designers can break it down in comparison to the half-elf from D&DXP. Thanks



Seconded.  I know you've posted about their 2 at-wills and their 3 Channel Divinity encounter powers (1 of which is a feat power), and all Clerics have Healing Word.

But what about the other encounter / daily powers?


----------



## Valdrax

RigaMortus2 said:
			
		

> Winterhaven...  Population 977...  And according to the map, only 11 buildings in town.  So that means the average building houses about 88 people.  Ok...




Actual quote from the May Preview:


> interhaven
> Village, Population 977
> The rutted King's Road leads to the foot of a broad hill that holds the walled village of Winterhaven. The village is nestled in the southern foothills of the Cairngorm Peaks. The walls are weathered stone topped by defensive palisades. *Small thatched homes stand around Winterhaven, each fronting a small piece of farmland or pasture.* Beyond the farms to the west and south lie dark woods, and to the north, tall mountain peaks.



(Emphasis added.)

In other words, like most castle or keep towns, people live in farms in the surrounding countryside but can flee behind the protection of the walls if an attack comes.


----------



## Kishin

Seule said:
			
		

> I'd wait for the full rules before making pronouncements like this. Maybe what you are describing is possible with a more potent power? There may be other things we don't know about.




This is likely what I'm thinking. It seems too obvious a hole in what has been to date a very consistently explained rules system to leave it open.

However, they are referring to 'dominated' as a condition, which means its likely spread across multiple abilities. Therefore, there'd need to be a more powerful 'keyword', and I'm having a hard time thinking of just what it is.


----------



## WyzardWhately

How many trained skills do the PCs have?  I'm not going to ask you to give their skill lists entire, but I'd like to know the number of slots they're getting.

Thanks for all you've posted.


----------



## pukunui

Kishin said:
			
		

> This is likely what I'm thinking. It seems too obvious a hole in what has been to date a very consistently explained rules system to leave it open.
> 
> However, they are referring to 'dominated' as a condition, which means its likely spread across multiple abilities. Therefore, there'd need to be a more powerful 'keyword', and I'm having a hard time thinking of just what it is.



 It's also possible they're leaving the more powerful domination effects for the psionic power source, since it's been tipped to be where most of the enchantment, charm, and other mind-affecting effects have gone.

As for a keyword, how about "possessed" or "enslaved"? I highly doubt either of those will be in the game but they were the first things to come to mind.


----------



## Seule

Kishin said:
			
		

> However, they are referring to 'dominated' as a condition, which means its likely spread across multiple abilities. Therefore, there'd need to be a more powerful 'keyword', and I'm having a hard time thinking of just what it is.




I suspect that the dominated condition deliberately excludes using up limited resources, because if it doesn't it severely warps character tactics if facing something that has the dominate ability. It would mean you'd always use your most potent abilities as fast as possible, so you couldn't be forced to use them against your allies.
Now, there may be some critters that have the ability with a 'but can also use encounter powers' rider, but I really wouldn't expect it. I suspect they playtested the unrestricted version and found it unfun.

  --Penn


----------



## pukunui

Seule said:
			
		

> I suspect they playtested the unrestricted version and found it unfun.



This.

Whether something is fun or not appears to be their motivation for changing a lot of things in 4e. Which is fine with me. Having fun is the single most important reason I play any kind of game. If it's not fun, why bother?


----------



## thalmin

Talaeden_Denthiir said:
			
		

> To Thalmin and all of the others that are giving us this information, Thank You
> 
> Can you please tell us if there is different equipment/weapons/armor to buy as you level up?
> 
> and
> Can you please give info on the zombie abilities?



In answer to buying equipment, no.


----------



## Rechan

Klaus said:
			
		

> Hey, thalmin, could you describe the following creatures (no need for full stats, just a quick description):
> 
> [sblock]
> Goblin Cutters
> Guard Drakes
> Human Rabble
> Hobgoblin Torturer
> Decrepit Skeletons
> Skeleton Knight
> Large Blue Slime
> Corruption Corpses
> Zombie Rotters
> Clay Scout
> Deathlock wight[/sblock]



I'm going to second this, but I am interested in the monster abilities. Stats aren't necessary.


----------



## thalmin

WyzardWhately said:
			
		

> How many trained skills do the PCs have?  I'm not going to ask you to give their skill lists entire, but I'd like to know the number of slots they're getting.
> 
> Thanks for all you've posted.



Trained Skills
Fighter: Athletics, Endurance, Intimidate
Rogue: Acrobatics, Bluff, Insight, Perception, Stealth, Thievery
Wizard: (Includes racial Bonus Trained Skill) Arcana, Dungeoneering, History, Nature, Religion
Cleric: Arcana, Heal, History, Religion
Paladin: Endurance, Heal, Intimidate, Religion


----------



## thalmin

Sorry, but for a couple days my time will be limited. I was on the road today for 7 hours so I can attend my niece's college graduation tomorrow (whoops, it's after midnight. Make that today) so I will only handle a few, easily answered questions for now.


----------



## Fallen Seraph

Thalmin, there is no need to say sorry, you have already provided a wealth of info. Take your time, ENWorld isn't going anywhere.


----------



## thalmin

FabioMilitoPagliara said:
			
		

> Can you tell us some details on the human wizard?
> 
> I would like to know
> 
> 1) how many at-will power it have?
> 2) which ones?
> 3) how many trained skills?
> 4) how many cantrips?
> 5) which ones?
> 6) what daily he have and can it chose them?
> 
> 
> thank you again!



1) 3, including bonus granted for human
2) Magic Missile, Ray of Frost, Scorching Blast
3) 5, including racial bonus skill
4&5) 2, Light and Ghost Sound (both at-will)
6) Acid Arrow and Sleep (no mention of choosing, maybe he can cast both) with Expeditious Retreat added at 2nd Level


----------



## hbarsquared

thalmin, to reiterate...

_THANK YOU!_

You mentioned earlier...







			
				thalmin said:
			
		

> The typical encounter has a couple paragraphs in the Setup, including the monsters listed for the encounter. This is followed by the Tactics section, with a couple of paragraphs describing tactics the monsters will use. Then there are the Stat Blocks and map, then a section on Features of the Area, which includes illumination, special terrain features, treasure.




I am in the process of putting together a 4E Dungeon adventure submission, and want to be as ready and prepared as possible as soon as the submissions open up again.  What would be the full formating of the encounters for _Keep?_  Would it be possible to give an outline of what adventure encounters look like?

ie...


> *K2. THE HALL* (Header 1)
> _Read-aloud text_
> _Features, description_
> _Included monsters_
> 
> *TACTICS* (Header 2)
> _Positioning, strategy, goals, morale_
> 
> *Monster/Trap Stat Blocks* (Header 3)
> 
> *Maps* (Header 3)
> 
> *FEATURES* (Header 2)
> _Illumination, terrain_
> 
> *Treasure* (Header 3)
> _Magic item descriptions, etc._



Something like that?


----------



## FitzTheRuke

I've had Keep on the Shadowfell since Wednesday night myself. I was going to brag, but I noticed this thread filling up already, and rather than spending my time reading this monster of a thread, I decided I'd read the module first. 

So count me in in answering questions when I've got the time.  I haven't read all the thread posts yet, so forgive me if this is already being discussed:

Off the top of my head I found a few things surprising (speaking as someone who's been playing 4E solid since DDXP and have been keeping up with ALL the rules spoilers...)

The Half-Elf doesn't appear to have any multiclass powers at all. (Could it be an option?)
The dwarf fighter only has three trained skills. (Could there be bonus skills from int?)
The dragonborn's breath does ONE D6 (presumably it can be increased with a racial feat?)
There really ISN'T a "staggered" condition in the RPG. Just the minis.
Humans appear to have a bonus skill, as well as a bonus at-will.

Overall, the format of the module is really great and the three double-sided grid maps are really useful. I hope all the new modules are done this way. I'm going to start running it on thursday.

Fitz


----------



## thalmin

jeremy_dnd said:
			
		

> thalmin, to reiterate...
> 
> _THANK YOU!_
> 
> You mentioned earlier...
> 
> I am in the process of putting together a 4E Dungeon adventure submission, and want to be as ready and prepared as possible as soon as the submissions open up again.  What would be the full formating of the encounters for _Keep?_  Would it be possible to give an outline of what adventure encounters look like?
> 
> ie...
> 
> Something like that?



 Very close

*Setup*
Includes approach info, who is found and in the area and what they are doing prior to adventurers entrance, list of creatures/npcs, Perception check needed and what will be revealed (color-coded responses to be read to players, like DC 10 "You hear several Orc voices in celebration." or DC 15 "You hear Orcs bragging about winning the Quiditch match".) [obviously these are examples I made up], finally a description to read aloud once players enter area.

*Stat Blocks*
 one for each grouping of monsters

*Tactics* 
A paragraph or three with tactics for each monster type involved, how motivated they are to fight.

*Features*
Illumination, description of terrain factors 
treasures (under a seperate sub-heading) including magic treasures last. 
*
Level Up*
If appropriate

A map of the encounter with party and monster starting positions is also located on the 2-page spread.


----------



## hbarsquared

thalmin said:
			
		

> Very close



You're super-awesome.

*gets back to work on a 4E adventure*


----------



## Talaeden_Denthiir

Thank You Thalmin, and the Zombie Abilities?


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Talaeden_Denthiir said:
			
		

> Thank You Thalmin, and the Zombie Abilities?




The Zombie Rotters (Level 3 Minions) just slam (+6 vs AC for 5)

but the Zombies (Level 2 Brutes) have a Grab (+4 vs Fortitude) which Immobilizes the target until it escapes by rolling Athletics vs Fort or Acrobatics vs Ref (as a move action)

And any crits automatically kill zombies (head shots, I would guess) which is called Zombie Weakness.

Other than that they're slow (Spd 4, init -1) but have lots of HP (40)

Fitz


----------



## Rechan

Fitz! Give us some monster abilities! 

[sblock]Particularly the blue slime/cube/ooze (What's a blue slime, anyways?), corruption corpses, goblin cutter, dark one, decrepit skeleton, clay scout (WTF is that?) etc.[/sblock]

General question: What's your OPINION of the module? What do you THINK? Is the story good? Do the situations seem exciting? And here's something important: are there any encounter terrain features that make a scene really interesting? (Like chandeliers to swing on, to use a crass example)?


----------



## totoro

FitzTheRuke said:
			
		

> I've had Keep on the Shadowfell since Wednesday night myself. I was going to brag, but I noticed this thread filling up already, and rather than spending my time reading this monster of a thread, I decided I'd read the module first.
> 
> So count me in in answering questions when I've got the time.  I haven't read all the thread posts yet, so forgive me if this is already being discussed:
> 
> Off the top of my head I found a few things surprising (speaking as someone who's been playing 4E solid since DDXP and have been keeping up with ALL the rules spoilers...)
> 
> The Half-Elf doesn't appear to have any multiclass powers at all. (Could it be an option?)
> The dwarf fighter only has three trained skills. (Could there be bonus skills from int?)
> The dragonborn's breath does ONE D6 (presumably it can be increased with a racial feat?)
> There really ISN'T a "staggered" condition in the RPG. Just the minis.
> Humans appear to have a bonus skill, as well as a bonus at-will.
> 
> Overall, the format of the module is really great and the three double-sided grid maps are really useful. I hope all the new modules are done this way. I'm going to start running it on thursday.
> 
> Fitz



I have not seen the module, but I would guess the Dwarf can speak 3 languages (Common, Dwarf, and another).

Can you post the ability scores for the characters?


----------



## FabioMilitoPagliara

first of all thank you!



			
				thalmin said:
			
		

> 1) 3, including bonus granted for human
> 2) Magic Missile, Ray of Frost, Scorching Blast
> 3) 5, including racial bonus skill
> 4&5) 2, Light and Ghost Sound (both at-will)
> 6) Acid Arrow and Sleep (no mention of choosing, maybe he can cast both) with Expeditious Retreat added at 2nd Level




4&5) this is interesting only 2 cantrip, the wizard in the dndxp had 3 cantrips

why is this? maybe the human wizard have a lower intelligence?

so can someone post the stat of the wizard?


----------



## Aria Silverhands

FitzTheRuke said:
			
		

> The Zombie Rotters (Level 3 Minions) just slam (+6 vs AC for 5) but the Zombies (Level 2 Brutes) have a Grab (+4 vs Fortitude) which Immobilizes the target until it escapes by rolling Athletics vs Fort or Acrobatics vs Ref (as a move action) and any crits automatically kill zombies (head shots, I would guess) which is called Zombie Weakness. Other than that they're slow (Spd 4, init -1) but have lots of HP (40)




That'll make for some interesting one-shot games with a zombocalypse.


----------



## functionciccio

Rechan said:
			
		

> General question: What's your OPINION of the module? What do you THINK? Is the story good? Do the situations seem exciting? And here's something important: are there any encounter terrain features that make a scene really interesting? (Like chandeliers to swing on, to use a crass example)?




Yes, Yes... tell us!!!


----------



## Klaus

FitzTheRuke said:
			
		

> The Zombie Rotters (Level 3 Minions) just slam (+6 vs AC for 5)
> 
> but the Zombies (Level 2 Brutes) have a Grab (+4 vs Fortitude) which Immobilizes the target until it escapes by rolling Athletics vs Fort or Acrobatics vs Ref (as a move action)
> 
> And any crits automatically kill zombies (head shots, I would guess) which is called Zombie Weakness.
> 
> Other than that they're slow (Spd 4, init -1) but have lots of HP (40)
> 
> Fitz



 Thanks, Fitz!

Maybe you could tackle this question in thalmin's stead:

Could you describe the following creatures (no need for full stats, just a quick description):

[sblock]
Goblin Cutters
Guard Drakes
Human Rabble
Hobgoblin Torturer
Decrepit Skeletons
Skeleton Knight
Large Blue Slime
Corruption Corpses
Zombie Rotters
Clay Scout
Deathlock wight[/sblock]


----------



## Torchlyte

Aria Silverhands said:
			
		

> That'll make for some interesting one-shot games with a zombocalypse.




You're better off homebrewing zombie stats for that kind of thing.


----------



## zoroaster100

Thanks to all who have posted all this info.  The thing I would most like to see, if someone who has seen the module is willing to post it, is the full write up for the second level utility power for the fighter.


----------



## Fiendish Dire Weasel

FabioMilitoPagliara said:
			
		

> 4&5) this is interesting only 2 cantrip, the wizard in the dndxp had 3 cantrips
> 
> why is this? maybe the human wizard have a lower intelligence?
> 
> so can someone post the stat of the wizard?




KotS Human Wizard: Str 11, Con 13, Dex 14, Int 18, Wis 12, Cha 10

I would have guessed it was maybe Wisdom or Charisma base, but looking at the stats I guess not.


----------



## Fiendish Dire Weasel

zoroaster100 said:
			
		

> Thanks to all who have posted all this info.  The thing I would most like to see, if someone who has seen the module is willing to post it, is the full write up for the second level utility power for the fighter.




Still not sure how much verbatum copying is good. There isn't much to say though: you gain 2d6+[Str or Con, not sure, both at 16] temp HP as a minor action, daily.


----------



## FabioMilitoPagliara

Fiendish Dire Weasel said:
			
		

> KotS Human Wizard: Str 11, Con 13, Dex 14, Int 18, Wis 12, Cha 10
> 
> I would have guessed it was maybe Wisdom or Charisma base, but looking at the stats I guess not.




seems to be linked with Intelligence, the Tiefling wizard had 20 INT

I think we are missing some important piece of information on language/cantrip and other things linked to intelligence

thank you


----------



## Fiendish Dire Weasel

Valdrax said:
			
		

> Seconded.  I know you've posted about their 2 at-wills and their 3 Channel Divinity encounter powers (1 of which is a feat power), and all Clerics have Healing Word.
> 
> But what about the other encounter / daily powers?




Cleric's 1st encounter power is a strong radiant damage melee attack that marks and gives a healing surge.

1st daily power is a great area heal (that also buffs your healings to the targets for the encounter) that weakens you enemy.

2nd encounter power is a pretty standard ranged attack that gives someone Combat Advantage on the target.


----------



## Fiendish Dire Weasel

jaldaen said:
			
		

> I'll second this request with a specific interest in their build benefit (ex: Rogue's Tactics:Artful Dodger/Brawny Rogue). If fact do they point which tactic the Pre-gens are and the specific benefit? Thanks




The Rogue is a Charisma one. One of thier at-wills seems to attack with Dex and deal 1[W]+Dex+Cha damage. 

The one thing I found very interesting looking at the Rogue is that normal dagger attacks didn't use Dex for hit/damage, only the Powers.


----------



## Westwind

I remain very enthusiastic about 4e, and I'm grateful for the previews in this post, but I'm beginning to worry that there are enough problems with the pregens that it might not be worth buying.  I'd have no problems buying it if I felt KotS if I felt it would retain some of its value after 4e was released, but with all the questions regarding the gaps between the pregens from the DnDXP and KotS, I'm not sure I want to spend money on a module I'll replace with "accurate" (i.e. stuff made from the core books) crunch in a few weeks' time.  It would kinda suck to have errata on the very first 4e product before 4e launched.


----------



## Fiendish Dire Weasel

Westwind said:
			
		

> I remain very enthusiastic about 4e, and I'm grateful for the previews in this post, but I'm beginning to worry that there are enough problems with the pregens that it might not be worth buying.  I'd have no problems buying it if I felt KotS if I felt it would retain some of its value after 4e was released, but with all the questions regarding the gaps between the pregens from the DnDXP and KotS, I'm not sure I want to spend money on a module I'll replace with "accurate" (i.e. stuff made from the core books) crunch in a few weeks' time.  It would kinda suck to have errata on the very first 4e product before 4e launched.




The DDXP characters were "old" before DDXP. With the timing difference here, there should have been almost no time between the final copy of KotS and the final copy of 4E PHB, considering we know that there already are PHBs out there. I'd bet that almost all the crunch is 99% if not 100%, aside from typos or mess-ups like the half-elf pregen.


----------



## Fiendish Dire Weasel

Vael said:
			
		

> Thanks for all the info. My question: what are the other pregen's utility powers? Wizards get Expeditious Retreat, what do the others get?




Cleric gets a non-Healing Surge using heal, Fighter gets a temp HP self-buff, Rogue gets Tumble, Paladin's lets you leap in front of an attack aimed at a friend.


----------



## Fiendish Dire Weasel

jaldaen said:
			
		

> Do the Pregens let you know what armors/weapons they are proficient in just in case you pick up an enemy's weapon or want to switch armors? If so, what are each classes' armor and weapon proficiencies? Thanks




Does not specify.


----------



## Echoes

Someone on the Gleemax forums is running a PbP game of Keep on the Shadowfell, and he has posted scans of the pregen characters - with mod approval, it seems.  I don't know if it's kosher for me to link them here, though...


----------



## keterys

... how could it be wrong to link to what another website's random user has posted, from a book on display?

That's like six degrees of ass covering.


----------



## Echoes

keterys said:
			
		

> ... how could it be wrong to link to what another website's random user has posted, from a book on display?
> 
> That's like six degrees of ass covering.




True enough.  And it's on an official Wizards site, sanctioned by a moderator.  At any rate if anyone wishes me to remove the link I will, but the thread is here.


----------



## FabioMilitoPagliara

Echoes said:
			
		

> Someone on the Gleemax forums is running a PbP game of Keep on the Shadowfell, and he has posted scans of the pregen characters - with mod approval, it seems.  I don't know if it's kosher for me to link them here, though...




link away!


----------



## baberg

*Level 2 Utility Powers, defined*

Below is the entire text block for each of the level 2 Utility powers, in case the Gleemax link stops working for some reason or you're firewalled.

[sblock]*Fighter*
Unstoppable
_You let your adrenaline surge carry you through battle_
Daily, Healing, Martial
Minor Action, Personal
Effect: You gain 2d6+3 temporary hit points

*Cleric*
Cure Light Wounds
_You utter a simple prayer and gain the power to instantly heal wounds, and your touch momentarily suffuses you or a wounded creature with a dim silver light_
Daily, Divine, Healing
Standard Action, Melee touch
Target: You or one creature
Effect: The target regains hit points as if it had spent a healing surge

*Rogue*
Tumble
_You tumble out of harm's way, dodging the opportunistic attacks of your enemies_
Encounter, Martial
Move Action, Personal
Effect: You can shift 3 squares

*Wizard*
Expeditious Retreat
_Your form blurs as you hastily withdraw from the battlefield_
Daily, Arcane
Move Action, Personal
Effect: Shift up to twice your speed

*Paladin*
Martyr's Blessing
_You step into an attack made against an adjacent ally_
Daily, Divine
Immediate Interrupt, Close burst 1
Trigger: An adjacent ally is hit by a melee or ranged attack
Effect: You are hit by the attack instead[/sblock]

Level 3 Attacks

[sblock]
*Fighter*
Crushing Blow
_You wind up and deliver a devastating blow with your weapon_
Encounter, Martial, Weapon
Standard Action, Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: +7 vs AC
Hit: 4d6+8 damage

*Cleric*
Daunting Light
_A burning column of light engulfs your foe, its brilliance burns an hinders your foe's defense for a short time_
Encoutner, Divine, Implement, Radiant
Standard Action, Ranged 10
Target: One creature
Attack: +4 vs Reflex
Hit: 2d10 + 3 radiant damage
Effect: One ally you can see gains combat advantage against the target until the end of your next turn

*Rogue*
Bait and Switch
_You strike and weave, causing your foe to lurch forward so that you can duck around him and slip into his space_
Encounter, Martial, Weapon
Standard Action, Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: +9 vs Will
Hit: 2d4 +4 damage.  In addition, you switch places with the target and can then shift up to 3 squares

*Wizard*
Fire Shroud
_With a subtle gesture, you wreathe nearby enemies in flames_
Encounter, Arcane, Fire, Implement
Standard Action, Close burst 3
Target: Each enemy in burst
Attack: +5 vs Fortitude
Hit: 1d8 + 4 fire damage, and ongoing 5 fire damage (save ends)

*Paladin*
Staggering Smite
_With a mighty swing, you knock your enemy back_
Encounter, Divine, Weapon
Standard Action, Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: +8 vs AC
Hit: 2d8 +4 damage, and you can push the target 1 square
[/sblock]


----------



## Imaro

Not sure if this has been posted yet, but here's the skill challenge from H1...it was posted at rpg.net here...
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=393613&page=2  post#20


[sblock]The PCs can negotiate with this undead guy - I forget his name, he used to be the lord of Shadowfell Keep before he went crazy and killed his family and most everyone inside.  The way the challenge is set up, the undead guy asks questions based on what skills the PCs are good at.  For example, if one of the PCs has a holy symbol, he'll ask the PC "What god do you worship, and why do you find him worthy?"  The player then rolls Religion (I can't remember the DC).  There are suggestions for a bunch of skills, such as Diplomacy, Arcana, Percpetion, and so on.  I think they need 4 successes before they got 4 failures.  If they fail, he attacks.  If they succeed, he believes them and gives them a magic item and advice.[/sblock]


----------



## heretic888

Echoes said:
			
		

> True enough.  And it's on an official Wizards site, sanctioned by a moderator.  At any rate if anyone wishes me to remove the link I will, but the thread is here.




From the Human Wizard sheet:

*Human Bonuses:* One extra at-will power, feat, trained skill, +1 to Fortitude, Reflex, and Will defenses (already included).​
Wow. Just wow. We already know humans get a +2 bonus to any ability score of their choice, too. 

My fist character in 4E is so going to be a Human Rogue.


----------



## jeffhartsell

Looks like the half-elf cleric took Healing Lore instead of Ritual Casting.  However, it does look like the half-elf is lacking in what we think are other racial abilities. If all the half-elf gets are the skills & stat bonuses and being able to take half-elf and human racial feats, that is lacking compared to the other races.

Also, the dwarf fighter only has 3 trained skills while the DDXP dwarf fighter had 4 trained skills.


----------



## occam

Kishin said:
			
		

> That's an incredibly lame nerf, and I'm pretty sure I won't be abiding by it.
> 
> Dunno I'll make it so that a dominated PC expends their encounter/daily if its used by the dominator, but you can rest assured they'll be able to do it.




Allowing PCs to use their encounter or daily powers against each other while dominated would totally throw off encounter balance in 4e, based on what we've seen, whether they're expended or not. PCs are built to take, and when necessary to give, a lot more than equivalent NPCs/monsters, because they get into a LOT more combat than NPCs. Compare PC dailies to attacks by monsters of the same level; they're way out of line. PCs would get smeared by NPCs with the same complement of powers as they (which is what dominated PCs or PC clones would be if they had no limitations on power use), since NPCs have no game incentive to hold back. Restricting power use to at-wills only seems like a pretty simple solution.


----------



## occam

Seule said:
			
		

> I suspect that the dominated condition deliberately excludes using up limited resources, because if it doesn't it severely warps character tactics if facing something that has the dominate ability. It would mean you'd always use your most potent abilities as fast as possible, so you couldn't be forced to use them against your allies.




And this.


----------



## Fiendish Dire Weasel

jeffhartsell said:
			
		

> Looks like the half-elf cleric took Healing Lore instead of Ritual Casting.  However, it does look like the half-elf is lacking in what we think are other racial abilities. If all the half-elf gets are the skills & stat bonuses and being able to take half-elf and human racial feats, that is lacking compared to the other races.




The DDXP Cleric has Healing Lore too, it just isn't listed seperately and already added in to the DDXP Cleric's only healing ability. The KotS Cleric has the ability listed seperately but doesn't have it added in to his healing abilities (look at his Healing Surge).

I don't know why he doesn't have Rituals listed. Maybe because Rituals aren't included in the adventure, I don't see it listed on the Wizard either.


----------



## Oldtimer

I've found an error on the character sheets.

The dragonborn paladin has the feat Healing Hands


> *Healing Hands:* When you use the lay on hands power, the target heals extra damage equal to your Charisma modifier (already included).



But it's not included in the description of Lay on Hands ("the target regains hit points as if it had spent a healing surge."). No mention of the +3 from Charisma there.


----------



## zoroaster100

The human wizard pregen does specify (under the entry for Class Feature: Spellbook) that he has two daily spells, but selects one after an extended rest, and can only cast one per day.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Yeah, the "already included" error is the first thing I noticed too.

As far as the module goes:

The story is a typical D&D one, mostly in a good way, in that you follow a fairly linear plot through smaking kobolds, then goblins, then humans, undead, yadda yadda (the threat escelates up the levels in the standard way.)

But keep in mind this about me: In 22 years of runniing D&D I've run modules TWICE because I've NEVER liked the story in ANY module, not even popular ones.

That said, this isn't too bad, if typical plot-wise, there's nothing inherently stupid in it.

What I REALLY like about it is the layout. The encounters are all two-page spreads, with descriptions of where the figures start on the included maps (which I also think are great), a nice simple set-up, good tactics, interesting stat-blocks, and some notes on where to go next.  I would say that it is by far the most USEFUL adventure I've ever read. My biggest praise being that I expect you could run it with VERY little prep time, and a new DM would be well-served with it.

My biggest complaint is not very fair: It's too similar to the plot I've been running for the past 4 weeks, in that we only really had stats for kobolds, goblins, and hobgoblins, and so I've already been running them.  I've run many 4e encounters very similar to the first few in the book, some with the same group I'll be running it for. I could skip 'em, but I'd like to run it in its entirety, so I hope the players won't find the first few fights repetitive.

If this will be your first foray into 4E, I think it's worth buying, even after the books come out. (Then you can make your own characters).  Expecially if you're a DM with limited prep time.

Fitz


----------



## Valerion Steele

can you tell us if theres a mentioning how many xp are needed for the level-ups?


----------



## pukunui

Hmm. The more I read about these pregens, the more I'm inclined to just wait until we've got the core books so my players can make their own characters.


----------



## Rechan

Lets get some monsters up in here!


----------



## Nikosandros

I apologize if this has already been answered, but what is the MSRP on this item?


----------



## Lurker59

Level 2 is reached at 1000 XP and level 3 at 2250 XP. I assume that fourth is 3750XP.


----------



## Lurker59

The MSRP is US$ 29.95 or 34.00 Canadian.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

It is USD $29.95.  It's a bit steep, but the maps are really nice. I hope they do all the adventures this way.

Blue Slime:

[SBLOCK]The Blue Slime Level 3 Solo Brute
Large Natural Beast (Ooze) XP 750
Init 0, Perception +7, Tremorsense 10 (can "feel" any creature in contact with the ground within 10" without a Perc check)
HP 204/102  AC 18 Fort 15 Ref 17 Will 14
Immune Charm, Fear, Resist Acid 5
Saves +3, Action Points 2, Speed 5, Swim 5
 Slam (Stand, AW) Reach 2, +8 vs AC, 1D6+6 & ongoing 5 Acid (save)
 Double (St, AW) 2 Basics
Slime Erruption (Stand, Rech    ) Close Burst 3, +6 vs Ref, 1D6+6 Acid damage, Miss 1/2
Stench Pulse (Stand, Encounter) Close Burst 4, +6 vs Will, Targets Dazed and Weakened (save ends)
Bloodied Erruption (Immed, when hits 0 HP) Slime Erruption without recharge
Align, UN
Str 13 (+2) Con 11 (+1) Dex 8 (0) Int 1 (-4) Wis 12 (+2) Cha 1 (-4)

Description: The Amorphous form of this creature seems to engulf everything around it. The Blue ooze of its body bulges and reaches outward with fluid appendages.

There you go.
Don't know why it's Bloodied erruption is called "bloodied" when it's "dead" at the time, but oh well.

The blue slime starts underwater in a dark flooded cave and presumably surprises the party. [/SBLOCK]

Fitz


----------



## Rechan

Thanks Fitz! Though that ought to go behind a cut.  



> Immune Charm



Hmm. Do we know if any of the pre-gens have any Charm powers?


----------



## ObsidianCrane

I would suggest we can see a lot of how Mearls got his Water Elemental from the ooze here for his ToEE 4E game.

The feel of that Ooze is very watery to me at least.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Rechan said:
			
		

> Thanks Fitz! Though that ought to go behind a cut.




Yeah uh... how do you DO that. (I'm not too savvy. Took me forever to learn how to QUOTE people.   

Fitz


----------



## jeffhartsell

Spoilers go in a sblock section. {sblock} Text {/sblock} but use [] instead.

[sblock] Like this one [/sblock]


----------



## LFK

FitzTheRuke said:
			
		

> Rechan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Fitz! Though that ought to go behind a cut.
> 
> Yeah uh... how do you DO that. (I'm not too savvy. Took me forever to learn how to QUOTE people.
> 
> Fitz
> 
> 
> 
> 
> same way you do quotes just put "sblock" (minus quotes as always) in the square brackets at the beginning and end. Don't forget the / in the end tag.
Click to expand...


----------



## FitzTheRuke

You learn something new every day. Thanks

Fitz


----------



## jaldaen

So I've looked over the D&DXP and Shadowfell characters and boy is there <puts on Ricky Ricardo's voice> "a lot of explaining to do." The fighters have seemingly different trained skill totals, the elf half a seemingly missing "multiclass" racial trait, among others. I thought I had a good (if incomplete) grasp of racial and class design from the D&DXP characters and excerpts, but there are a few things in these Shadowfell characters which make it a bit tougher to guage the race and class balance.


----------



## Klaus

FitzTheRuke said:
			
		

> It is USD $29.95.  It's a bit steep, but the maps are really nice. I hope they do all the adventures this way.
> 
> Blue Slime:
> 
> [SBLOCK]The Blue Slime Level 3 Solo Brute
> Large Natural Beast (Ooze) XP 750
> Init 0, Perception +7, Tremorsense 10 (can "feel" any creature in contact with the ground within 10" without a Perc check)
> HP 204/102  AC 18 Fort 15 Ref 17 Will 14
> Immune Charm, Fear, Resist Acid 5
> Saves +3, Action Points 2, Speed 5, Swim 5
> Slam (Stand, AW) Reach 2, +8 vs AC, 1D6+6 & ongoing 5 Acid (save)
> Double (St, AW) 2 Basics
> Slime Erruption (Stand, Rech    ) Close Burst 3, +6 vs Ref, 1D6+6 Acid damage, Miss 1/2
> Stench Pulse (Stand, Encounter) Close Burst 4, +6 vs Will, Targets Dazed and Weakened (save ends)
> Bloodied Erruption (Immed, when hits 0 HP) Slime Erruption without recharge
> Align, UN
> Str 13 (+2) Con 11 (+1) Dex 8 (0) Int 1 (-4) Wis 12 (+2) Cha 1 (-4)
> 
> Description: The Amorphous form of this creature seems to engulf everything around it. The Blue ooze of its body bulges and reaches outward with fluid appendages.
> 
> There you go.
> Don't know why it's Bloodied erruption is called "bloodied" when it's "dead" at the time, but oh well.
> 
> The blue slime starts underwater in a dark flooded cave and presumably surprises the party. [/SBLOCK]
> 
> Fitz



 Fitz, could you post (or e-mail me) the descriptions for these creatures?

[sblock]Goblin Sharpshooters
Goblin Cutters
Fat Goblin
Guard Drakes
Hobgoblin Torturer
Skeleton Warriors
Decrepit Skeletons
Skeleton Knight
Kruthik Adult
Kruthik Young
Kruthik Hatchlings
Corruption Corpses
Clay Scout
Orcus Underpriest
Deathlock wight
[/sblock]


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## bobthehappyzombie

jeffhartsell said:
			
		

> Spoilers go in a sblock section. {sblock} Text {/sblock} but use [] instead.
> 
> [sblock] Like this one [/sblock]




works here I think

nope, it doesn't... oh well


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## thalmin

In my list of monsters,I missed another one. I added it to the list on page 3, but here is what I missed [sblock]2 Gravehound Zombies (zombie dogs) [/sblock]


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## ozprince

thalmin said:
			
		

> In my list of monsters,I missed another one. I added it to the list on page 3, but here is what I missed [sblock]2 Gravehound Zombies (zombie dogs) [/sblock]




Are you going to be posting any more interesting tipbits?


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## thalmin

ozprince said:
			
		

> Are you going to be posting any more interesting tipbits?



I still haven't read through the module, only skimmed it. I will post more when I find something more than just a spoiler.


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## Cirex

thalmin said:
			
		

> I still haven't read through the module, only skimmed it. I will post more when I find something more than just a spoiler.




We can promote you to "Legendary game store owner" with all the information you provided us


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## Fiendish Dire Weasel

There really isn't a lot of new material other than the characters (who have been posted in full elsewhere) and the module itself (which would be very spoilery). The only think I know of that isn't with these two is a more comprehensive Conditions List and skill descriptions.


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## frankthedm

FitzTheRuke said:
			
		

> Blue Slime:[SBLOCK]The Blue Slime Level 3 Solo Brute
> Large Natural Beast (Ooze) XP 750
> Init 0, Perception +7, Tremorsense 10 (can "feel" any creature in contact with the ground within 10" without a Perc check)
> HP 204/102  AC 18 Fort 15 Ref 17 Will 14
> Immune Charm, Fear, Resist Acid 5
> Saves +3, Action Points 2, Speed 5, Swim 5
> Slam (Stand, AW) Reach 2, +8 vs AC, 1D6+6 & ongoing 5 Acid (save)
> Double (St, AW) 2 Basics
> Slime Erruption (Stand, Rech    ) Close Burst 3, +6 vs Ref, 1D6+6 Acid damage, Miss 1/2
> Stench Pulse (Stand, Encounter) Close Burst 4, +6 vs Will, Targets Dazed and Weakened (save ends)
> Bloodied Erruption (Immed, when hits 0 HP) Slime Erruption without recharge
> Align, UN
> Str 13 (+2) Con 11 (+1) Dex 8 (0) Int 1 (-4) Wis 12 (+2) Cha 1 (-4)
> 
> Description: The Amorphous form of this creature seems to engulf everything around it. The Blue ooze of its body bulges and reaches outward with fluid appendages.
> 
> There you go.
> Don't know why it's Bloodied erruption is called "bloodied" when it's "dead" at the time, but oh well.
> 
> The blue slime starts underwater in a dark flooded cave and presumably surprises the party. [/SBLOCK]



Yay!. Quite happy to see that since I made one of those a while back.




I was hoping for low level slimes in 4E. Now I pray there will be smaller minion slimes as well.  {Glass beads are so easy to come by]


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## Rechan

Hey Fitz, Thalmin!

[sblock]What are the Corruption Corpses? Are those the 'throw diseased, rotting hunks of flesh' zombies? Or the 'reanimate zombie friends'? Or are they just dead politicians?[/sblock]


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## thalmin

Kind of the former, but cooler more interesting. 'Nuff said.


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## Fallen Seraph

frankthedm said:
			
		

> I was hoping for low level slimes in 4E. Now I pray there will be smaller minion slimes as well.  {Glass beads are so easy to come by]



I am tempted to have minion slimes to come off of ordinary slimes during combat as the slime is attacked.


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## drjones

jaldaen said:
			
		

> So I've looked over the D&DXP and Shadowfell characters and boy is there <puts on Ricky Ricardo's voice> "a lot of explaining to do." The fighters have seemingly different trained skill totals, the elf half a seemingly missing "multiclass" racial trait, among others. I thought I had a good (if incomplete) grasp of racial and class design from the D&DXP characters and excerpts, but there are a few things in these Shadowfell characters which make it a bit tougher to guage the race and class balance.



Don't.  The XP characters were made before the rules were finalized and we know that the Keep ones might have been shortened for space.  They are pregen characters for using in the preview game, wait till you have the PHB before you try to determine relative power or whatever.


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## Ashrem Bayle

Does KotS have advice for placing it in FR or Eberron, or will that be on DDI?


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## pukunui

Ashrem Bayle said:
			
		

> Does KotS have advice for placing it in FR or Eberron, or will that be on DDI?



 They've already said that'll be on DDI on the release day.


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## mach1.9pants

drjones said:
			
		

> Don't.  The XP characters were made before the rules were finalized and we know that the Keep ones might have been shortened for space.  They are pregen characters for using in the preview game, wait till you have the PHB before you try to determine relative power or whatever.



And WotC have come out and said that the KotSF PCs will correct the errata (using DDI/web) pointed out in a couple of ENW threads


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## ArmoredSaint

thalmin said:
			
		

> Just got the store preview copy of Keep on the Shadowfell
> The included pregens are:
> Dwarf Fighter: Maul (2-handed), dagger, Scale mail
> Halfling Rogue: Daggers, leather
> Human Wizard: Quarterstaff, wand
> Half-Elf Cleric: Mace, crowwsbow, Chain Mail
> Dragonborn Paladin: Longsword, javelin, Heavy Plate, Heavy Shield




I notice that you cite the Dragonborn Paladin as being equipped with "_Heavy_ Plate."  How does this differ from the regular Plate Armour that we've seen in previews so far?


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## Brian888

I just picked up a copy of KotS at the Borders on L Street in Washington DC over my lunch break (there's still another copy there if anybody's in the area and wants to get their hands on it).  I've only been able to flip through a little of it, but so far it looks beautiful.  

I've only noticed one error so far:

[sblock]In the stat block for Kalarel, the evil priest of Orcus/boss of the encounter, there's a note next to his AC stat to "see also _shadow form_ below."  I can't find this _shadow form_ power or ability referenced anywhere else, though.[/sblock]


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## Rechan

ArmoredSaint said:
			
		

> I notice that you cite the Dragonborn Paladin as being equipped with "_Heavy_ Plate."  How does this differ from the regular Plate Armour that we've seen in previews so far?



Clearly it's plate armor from the 80s:

Marty McFly: Wait a minute, Doc, are you trying to tell me that my mother has got the hots for me?
Dr. Emmett Brown: Precisely.
Marty McFly: Whoa, this is heavy.
Dr. Emmett Brown: There's that word again; "heavy". Why are things so heavy in the future? Is there a problem with the earth's gravitational pull?


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## Sojorn

Brian888 said:
			
		

> I just picked up a copy of KotS at the Borders on L Street in Washington DC over my lunch break (there's still another copy there if anybody's in the area and wants to get their hands on it).  I've only been able to flip through a little of it, but so far it looks beautiful.
> 
> I've only noticed one error so far:
> 
> [sblock]In the stat block for Kalarel, the evil priest of Orcus/boss of the encounter, there's a note next to his AC stat to "see also _shadow form_ below."  I can't find this _shadow form_ power or ability referenced anywhere else, though.[/sblock]



Explained by WotC.
[sblock=Just in case] The power was omitted intentionally because it contained effects that were not in the quick-start rules (phasing and insubstantial I think) because of space limits, but they missed removing the reference from the early part of the stat block.[/sblock]


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## melkoriii

I didnt see anyone list the Wizard at-will attack Thunderwave on the Wizard character.

I did the Demo this weekend and saw it and was very stoked since I never heard of it till then.
I dont have all the text.  This is just the mechanics that I remember.

Thunderwave
level 1 Wizard attack, Arcane, Thunder, attack
Blast 3
All targets in blast
Int vs Fort
1d6+int, Target is pushed 3 squares


It was very useful in the encounter they had us play with lots of Minions


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## cdrcjsn

melkoriii said:
			
		

> I didnt see anyone list the Wizard at-will attack Thunderwave on the Wizard character.
> ...
> It was very useful in the encounter they had us play with lots of Minions




I am so in love with this spell.


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