# My playtest of new Mage (Essentials) spells



## Nightfly (Sep 15, 2010)

Just picked up Heroes of the Fallen Lands and thought it would be fun to give the new powers a spin. So I made it to my local RPGA meeting last night and ran through AGLA 1-5 with a mage: a level 3 wizard built entirely with essentials powers.

I choose a human so I could test an extra at-will. There were so many cool new at-wills to try that I didn't have room for them all. I wanted to test out the more unusual ones, so I skipped obviously good powers like Freezing Burst (same as Scorching Burst, but with slide 1). I also passed up Phantasmal Assault (single target vs will, 1d8+int psychic, target grants CA and can't make opportunity attacks for a turn) because I've already used it in my campaign and know it's awesome -- best single target wizard spell IMHO. I really wanted to try out Phantom Cage (single target vs will, 1d8+int psychic damage, "if the target moves before the end of your next turn, it takes 5 psychic damage") but didn't want to get into rules lawyering. From the wording, it seems to me that the target would take damage every time it moves, voluntarily or not, but I'm not sure that's clear.

I ended up taking Arc Lightning, Beguiling Strands, Hypnotism, and Magic Missile (essentials wizards get MM for free). My encounter powers were Illusory Obstacles, Blissful Ignorance, and Suggestion (another new free one), and my daily was Fountain of Fire. Here's how it went:


*AT-WILL POWERS*

*ARC LIGHTNING*: 1 or 2 targets vs ref, 1d6+int lightning damage
       Nice simple damage-only power, Divine Bolts for a wizard. Nothing fancy, but I used it the most of my three at-wills. Hitting two bloodied enemies for double-digit damage is not shabby. Eat your heart out, rangers.

*BEGUILING STRANDS*: Close blast 5 vs will, enemies only, int mod psychic damage and push up to 3
       The MVP of the at-wills. Damage is weak, but it hits only enemies over a whopping 25 squares, which is full of win. Amazing minion killer and great for positioning enemies. When our barbarian was slowed and kept failing his saving throw, I used this power to push a monster right next to him so he could smack it. It was even more useful in bunching up enemies for my daily, Fountain of Flame. My campaign wizard uses Thunderwave, and overall I think this power is definitely better. The extra effect size and friendly targeting makes up for the smaller damage. Note that mages who specialize in Enchantment can increase the push of this spell to FIVE squares.

*HYPNOTISM*: One creature vs will, either slide target 3 squares or target makes a melee basic vs adjacent creature with +4 to attack.
       Maybe the most interesting of the new at-wills. Sadly, I never even used it. Beguiling Strands was a better choice to move enemies around so I never needed the slide option. I kept waiting for an enemy marked by our fighter to be next to another enemy, so I could force the marked enemy to make an attack and trigger Combat Superiority, but that didn't happen once all night. This power would perhaps be better with some teamwork -- since this was an RPGA game, we were a sloppy pickup group that didn't synergize that well -- but it seems very situational to me. Monsters generally try to flank, so they're not adjacent to a defender and each other all that often, and it doesn't seem worth using the forced-attack option unless it's triggering a defender's mark. I would not take this power again, but I'd be interested if someone else could make it work.

*MAGIC MISSILE*: Does 2+int damage to one target automatically.
       Never used, except to help bust down a door. I would never spend an at-will spot on MM, but it's awfully nice to have for free. It's definitely useful in certain situations: an enemy is more than 10 squares away, has heavy cover, or is down to single-digit HP. I've always thought MM should be a class feature of all wizards, so it's great that it is for the Mage.


*ENCOUNTER POWERS*

*Level one
ILLUSORY OBSTACLES*: Ranged burst 1 vs will, no damage, targets dazed and unable to charge for one turn. MISS: only unable to charge.
       A very good power. It's about time WotC realized that dazing is somewhat useless when monsters can simply charge. This power robs targets of both multiple actions and charge, effectively making melee creatures lose their next turn. One encounter was against a group that was primarily based on ranged powers, so this spell was pretty useless that fight. Still, a very strong power. 
*
SUGGESTION*: Make an arcana check instead of a diplomacy check.
       All mages get this power for free -- it's called a cantrip, even though it's an encounter power. Obviously, this is very useful, and one of the features I'm most looking forward to giving to my campaign wizard. Sadly, we didn't have a social skill challenge on this particular night so it went unused. 

*Level three
BLISSFUL IGNORANCE*: Ranged burst 2, no attack roll, targets slowed and can't make opportunity or immediate actions for one turn.
       Another no-damage power with a strong control effect. This one imposes its effect automatically over a large burst 2, which is pretty eye-popping. Other players at the table assumed it was a daily power! The mass slow is obviously nice, but our defender took advantage of the no OA provision to throw himself into the middle of the group with impunity. Very impressive.


*DAILY POWER

FOUNTAIN OF FLAME*: Ranged burst 1 vs ref, enemies only, 3d8+int fire damage (half on miss). Zone lasts until end of encounter: enemies entering it or ending turn there take 5 fire damage.
       A whopping 3d8, in a burst, that doesn't affect allies, and also creates an ongoing zone that doesn't have to be sustained. That's pretty good for a level one spell. The only drawback is the fairly small burst 1, so it takes a little planning to hit several enemies with this power. In my case, I used Beguiling Strands to push two monsters near a third, spent an action point, then put all three of them on the Lava Griddle of Death. Two were killed instantly, one by a crit (37 damage -- ouch!) and the fighter used Combat Superiority to keep the last one locked down in the zone, eating five damage each turn. Although it's obvious on first read that this a very strong power, I was still startled by how brutal it was in practice. Ladies and gentlemen, godlike wizard dailies are alive and well. I'm not sure I'd give up my beloved Flaming Sphere to take this, but there's no doubt it's a very worthy alternative.

Overall, I found the new spells fun and strong without being overpowered. I do think that the new choices largely make the old spells obsolete. Why take Phantom Bolt or Scorching Burst when you can take Freezing Burst, which combines both spells? Why take Ray of Frost when there are now so many options to slow monsters? And although many wizards regard Winged Horde as too good to pass up, I might never take it again now that Beguiling Strands and Phantasmal Assault are available.

It's also nice to see the high number of non-damage control spells now available. Although I didn't go past third level on this playtest, those kinds of options continue to be available at higher levels (two of the three level 7 encounter powers fall into this vein, and they're both superb). It definitely makes wizard more versatile, and I think it's possible now to roll an illusionist wizard who literally never makes a damage roll, yet is still quite strong.

Hope you enjoyed the write-up.


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## Riastlin (Sep 15, 2010)

Hey thanks for the write up.  Good to see more viable options out there.  The more viable options they can give to the classes the better so as to avoid the cookie cutter effect.


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## Zaran (Sep 15, 2010)

What level is fountain of flame? It does the same max damage as a fireball. Seems like that area 3 for the fireball is a big deal to them. In my opinion I rather have fountain of flame.


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## Stalker0 (Sep 15, 2010)

Zaran said:


> What level is fountain of flame? It does the same max damage as a fireball. Seems like that area 3 for the fireball is a big deal to them. In my opinion I rather have fountain of flame.




Fireball does 4d8, but I agree with you that its not a good power. There are far better 5th level powers out there, and I often find the burst 3 is more harm than help.


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## Nork (Sep 15, 2010)

Stalker0 said:


> Fireball does 4d8, but I agree with you that its not a good power. There are far better 5th level powers out there, and I often find the burst 3 is more harm than help.




Fireball does 4d6.  Not only is it bad, it is REALLY bad even after they buffed it.  So bad that you can be excused for thinking it must do 4d8. (edit: I still wouldn't take it even if it did 4d8.)


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## MrMyth (Sep 15, 2010)

Eh, I've seen Fireball win encounters due to the Burst 3. Of course, I've seen other Wizard Dailies do the same, but I do think people underestimate the size of it. It could stand for more buffing, but I don't think it is nearly as terrible as many make it out to be.


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## UngeheuerLich (Sep 15, 2010)

thank heavens, wizards can take a good power and fireball for those cases where they know they are fighting in the open and against hordes of minions...

These were the only fights when fireball was ever useful (when you didn´t want to kill yourself and the rest of the party) and here it is one of the best powers available...

or imagine 5 wizards use fireball against a horde of non-minions... we are speaking of an average of 20 damage per hit and still 10 damage on a miss... so we are in the 75 points of damage range to all targets... even more from evokers...

don´t underestimate it...


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## Plane Sailing (Sep 15, 2010)

MrMyth said:


> Eh, I've seen Fireball win encounters due to the Burst 3. Of course, I've seen other Wizard Dailies do the same, but I do think people underestimate the size of it. It could stand for more buffing, but I don't think it is nearly as terrible as many make it out to be.




i consider it to be the most woefully awful wizard daily. For the classic fireball to fall behind the once laughable 2nd level spell stinking cloud is a travesty, a travesty I tell you!

I bet any encounter which fireball 'won because of its burst 3' would have been also won by the burst 2, sustainable, minion slaughtering stinking cloud.

The big problem is that it doesn't kill minions. Put stinking cloud on minions and they are all dead. End of story. launch a fireball at them and eh, any you hit you kill but any you miss are still live and kicking. Fails on the minion killing front. How about damage? You'll do 3d6+int to all your targets, and that is it (first time I saw one used the wizard rolled 4 on his 3d6 and got into a huff). Stinking cloud you do 1d10+int on the first turn, and then on every other turn after that, and you don't even have to hit them to get the damage.

My solution to fireball would be to keep it 3d6 damage but give it an effect: ongoing 5 fire. That means that a fireball will kill all minions in its area, and do an average of 10 extra damage against those in its area whether it hits or misses.


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## Nork (Sep 15, 2010)

Especially when wizards could have just cast an enlarged Orbmaster's Incendiary Detonation.  Which is a level 1 encounter spell.  Prone in burst, minion popcorn popper zone of auto death.  With an Orb of Imposition it goes from merely better overall to just plain blowing the doors off fireball.

It isn't that fireball is bad for a level 5 wizard daily, it is that fireball is bad for a wizard spell period.

As a controller, wizard daily spells should knock the wind out of an encounter's sails.  Instead fireball just swishes some meh damage around on the table.


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## Nahat Anoj (Sep 15, 2010)

I, too, lament Fireball's loss of grandeur.  I wouldn't want it to be overpowered compared to other dailies, but I think the various Fireball variants that knock creatures prone and/or push creatures are fun and might give back a bit of the crazy, encounter-changing feel that older versions of Fireball had.

EDIT: I should say, the older versions of fireball also were just pure damage spells over a large area.  So the current version really doesn't deviate from that legacy.  It's just that when an older version of the spell was used I felt that it was a truly amazing, game-changing moment, one that would devastate enemies but could potentially backfire by either catching allies in the blast or result in the dreaded "blowback." (I've heard many stories of hapless mages incinerated by their own, ill-placed fireballs!)  I don't get quite that same feeling with the current version of the spell.


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## Tony Vargas (Sep 16, 2010)

Plane Sailing said:


> i consider it to be the most woefully awful wizard daily. For the classic fireball to fall behind the once laughable 2nd level spell stinking cloud is a travesty, a travesty I tell you!



Hey, Stinking Cloud has always been very effective.  It used to debilitate targets for a minimum of two rounds, no save.   

Having it do damge in 4e was probably taking it too far.  It's barely discernable from Cloudkill, now.


To the OP:  Did you get to try out any Mage utilities?  (I'm assuming it has some).  Also, what did school specialization finally turn out to do for you?


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## Zaran (Sep 16, 2010)

Nahat Anoj said:


> I, too, lament Fireball's loss of grandeur. I wouldn't want it to be overpowered compared to other dailies, but I think the various Fireball variants that knock creatures prone and/or push creatures are fun and might give back a bit of the crazy, encounter-changing feel that older versions of Fireball had.
> 
> EDIT: I should say, the older versions of fireball also were just pure damage spells over a large area. So the current version really doesn't deviate from that legacy. It's just that when an older version of the spell was used I felt that it was a truly amazing, game-changing moment, one that would devastate enemies but could potentially backfire by either catching allies in the blast or result in the dreaded "blowback." (I've heard many stories of hapless mages incinerated by their own, ill-placed fireballs!) I don't get quite that same feeling with the current version of the spell.




That's why having an Area 3 blast effect isn't such a great thing. It's very hard to place a fireball without the wizard getting a high initiative. Sure it can get rid of alot of minions. But there is a first level at will that can do that without hitting allies . I'm glad they added an extra d6 but it still doesn't make it a good spell.

How does the Wizard spellbook work now?


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## Roland55 (Sep 16, 2010)

Plane Sailing said:


> i consider it to be the most woefully awful wizard daily. For the classic fireball to fall behind the once laughable 2nd level spell stinking cloud is a travesty, a travesty I tell you!
> 
> I bet any encounter which fireball 'won because of its burst 3' would have been also won by the burst 2, sustainable, minion slaughtering stinking cloud.
> 
> ...




I'm still lamenting the "death" of fireball ... after all this time.


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## Aegeri (Sep 16, 2010)

I would make fireball a burning zone actually. At an area burst 3, a zone that lasts until the end of your next turn that deals Int fire damage when a creature starts its turn or enters it would be very useful and provide a pretty strong area of control.


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## nookiemonster (Sep 16, 2010)

I seem to recall something about "delayed blast fireball" in HotFL, so maybe they've beefed up the 'ball some. I also recall reading that feats will no longer be separated by tier, that you can take any feat at any tier if you have the prereqs, so that feat which lets you exclude certain squares from blasts/bursts would be very useful for Fireball users, effectively turning it into a "targets enemies" effect.


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## Nork (Sep 16, 2010)

nookiemonster said:


> I seem to recall something about "delayed blast fireball" in HotFL, so maybe they've beefed up the 'ball some. I also recall reading that feats will no longer be separated by tier, that you can take any feat at any tier if you have the prereqs, so that feat which lets you exclude certain squares from blasts/bursts would be very useful for Fireball users, effectively turning it into a "targets enemies" effect.




Delayed Blast Fireball
Wizard 25 daily
Minor action
You create an orb that can be used as a standard action
Sustain Minor: The orb lasts until the end of your next turn

Standard action
Area burst 2
int vs reflex
hit: 5d8 + int damage, plus 1d8 for every round you sustained the orb (max 3d8)
miss: half damage

That seems like a pretty bad spell considering the other options available at that level.


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## Nightfly (Sep 16, 2010)

Tony Vargas said:


> To the OP:  Did you get to try out any Mage utilities?  (I'm assuming it has some).  Also, what did school specialization finally turn out to do for you?




All of the level 2 utility spells in HotFL are ones already in 4e except for Instant Friends, the new out-of-combat Charm Person which is kind of insanely strong. There's a very long thread at rpg.net bitching about how broken it is, since it can arguably circumvent entire skill challenges. I decided not to take it, since it seemed like a poor fit for an RPGA game: it would probably either be useless, or something the rest of my party would resent.

My school was Evocation, which grants the ability to reroll one die that originally rolled a 1 each time I hit with an Evocation power, sort of Brutal 1 for spells. Very nice.

EDIT: Was just getting ready to post Delayed Blast Fireball, but Nork beat me to it by one minute. Curses!


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## alastersan (Sep 16, 2010)

I am new on this forums, but i read them long time ago, i would kill for info about the mechanic of the new spell-book and how works the master evokator power.
Pleaseee xD  /beg

PS: Nice forum and web. 
PS2: I did a pdf with all the rituals, alchemy, and martial techniques sorted, except dark sun rituals. Is legal to post it here? I attached the first page. In my character i put the name of the ritual and the page on my book.

*Mod Edit:*  Attachment removed.


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## Nightfly (Sep 16, 2010)

Zaran said:


> How does the Wizard spellbook work now?




It seems to be about the same, although you now can put encounter powers in your spellbook too.

If you take the Paragon Path presented in this book, you get a utility power at level 16 that's almost the same as the Tome of Readiness feature but slightly better, since you can switch from any encounter power to any other encounter power in your spellbook of the same level or lower.


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## Nork (Sep 16, 2010)

The spell book is exactly the same, except it applies to encounter spells too, and you never 'lose' a lower level spell when you gain a higher level spell.

As for the master Evoker ability, when you cast an evocation power you ignore resistances.  Which is actually pretty solid.


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## alastersan (Sep 16, 2010)

Ty Nork. 

I think they should errata Versatile spell-book and Refocus so it can be used with encounters.

Soooo, if i use chain lightning (electricity) and i change to radiant, i remove all the resistance of the mob vs radiant for this spell? cool


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## Stormtalon (Sep 16, 2010)

Nork said:


> Delayed Blast Fireball
> Wizard 25 daily
> Minor action
> You create an orb that can be used as a standard action
> ...




Well, considering that creating the orb and then sustaining it are both minor actions, you'll be launching other attacks while you power it up.  Like, I dunno, a beguiling blast at just the right time to put a buncha baddies right in this thing's sweet spot in round 4.

It's not like it prevents you from casting other spells as you bring it to full power.  Seems not too bad, all things considered.  Besides, think of all the DBZ jokes you can make while charging it up!


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## Nork (Sep 16, 2010)

Stormtalon said:


> Well, considering that creating the orb and then sustaining it are both minor actions, you'll be launching other attacks while you power it up.  Like, I dunno, a beguiling blast at just the right time to put a buncha baddies right in this thing's sweet spot in round 4.
> 
> It's not like it prevents you from casting other spells as you bring it to full power.  Seems not too bad, all things considered.  Besides, think of all the DBZ jokes you can make while charging it up!



Or you get stunned and lose a daily before it did anything.  Even if you don't get stunned, you've got to wait until the 4th round of combat to get the full power of the spell, and pretty much all of the monsters will have unloaded their action points, encounter powers by that point, and some of the monsters should have been killed, leaving your delayed blast fireball to finally hit when the battle is point of the spear has already been blunted.

Maybe if the spell gave you a bonus to your attacks while you were sustaining it, it might be useful.

As it is, Prismatic Spray ought to do as much or more damage (especially since it adds your static mods twice), and it inflicts some nasty status effects while it is at it.


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## Aegeri (Sep 16, 2010)

Yeah I agree with you Nork, it's a pretty lackluster spell to be honest.


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## UngeheuerLich (Sep 16, 2010)

Roland55 said:


> I'm still lamenting the "death" of fireball ... after all this time.



In all seriousness now:

Fireball died in 3.0, not in 4e...


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## alastersan (Sep 16, 2010)

With empower or maximize fireball was not so bad. 60 damage or 15d6 was nice in 3.0 or 3.5


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## DracoSuave (Sep 16, 2010)

Sadly, level 5 and 6 spells generally end the fight quicker.  60 damage < win the fight.


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## alastersan (Sep 16, 2010)

In my case it was 1 level less with my pc incantatrix, but yes, there are better spells at those levels, my level 5 favorite spell was firebrand, 15d6 to 15 targets.


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## UngeheuerLich (Sep 16, 2010)

a saving grace for fireball in 4e:

a simple reagent that cost only 200gp will add ongoing fire damage 5... (You could throw no fireball at all without reagents in AD&D)

So in the end we have a  spell that is good in some circumstances with the right preparation at least now... a good spell to have stored in your spell book, not a lot more...

and of course, dealing damage is worth a lot more in 4e than it was in 3.x (If you are in a group with power gamers)


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## ObsidianCrane (Sep 16, 2010)

Dealing damage for a Wizard is nice but no where near as effective for your party as applying conditions (dazed, stunned) and positioning (push,pull,slide) to ensure the rest of the party has their effectiveness maximised.

The damage thing for Wizards is a hold over from prior editions. Fireball is bad in 4E because all it does is mediocre damage over a lot of squares - something that isn't going to matter in the vast majority of cases, and that can be negated by applying good control effects in the lead up rounds to hitting the daily.

Glad to see that the new controller wizard works as well as it looks like it does. It will be interesting to convert my Staff Wizard over when the book becomes legal for LFR.

Now we just need the spellbook to be more flexible, Tome of Readiness makes having multiple Daily and Encounter powers good, otherwise they are really worth having, which makes the feature pointless more often than not.


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## UngeheuerLich (Sep 16, 2010)

and still, damage is a lot more useful in 4e than it was in 3.x

Not every wizard wants to control... some just want to blast... controlling things is nice, but softening up every enemy by 10 - 30 points of damage helps strikers a lot...

and if everyone fires of that much damage in the first round: good bye enemies...


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## erf_beto (Sep 16, 2010)

Dear WotC,

 Please look into the Fireball issues so that our threads may not be derailed again. 

Sincerely,

Concerned gamer.


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## ObsidianCrane (Sep 16, 2010)

UngeheuerLich said:


> Not every wizard wants to control... some just want to blast... controlling things is nice, but softening up every enemy by 10 - 30 points of damage helps strikers a lot...



 Seriously, if you want to blast stuff play a sorcerer and choose powers appropriately you'll do more damage. I've never seen a Wizard noticeably swing a battle by damage, but I've seen them massively change them via control of the field.


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## Colmarr (Sep 16, 2010)

Nightfly said:


> I really wanted to try out Phantom Cage (single target vs will, 1d8+int psychic damage, "if the target moves before the end of your next turn, it takes 5 psychic damage") but didn't want to get into rules lawyering. From the wording, it seems to me that the target would take damage every time it moves, voluntarily or not, but I'm not sure that's clear.




Interesting. I read that the other way: "if" as a binary once-off proposition.

If it were meant to be every time the target moves, I would expect it to say "when", not "if".


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## Taed (Sep 16, 2010)

I found during the Red Box Game Day that Beguiling Strands and Fountain of Flame work very well together.  Either doing as you did with using BS to bunch them up and them FF them, or by using FF in one spot and then use BS every turn to move them back into the flame for the 5 damage.  The FF lasting for the rest of the encounter is very powerful.


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## Umbran (Sep 16, 2010)

alastersan said:


> PS2: I did a pdf with all the rituals, alchemy, and martial techniques sorted, except dark sun rituals. Is legal to post it here?




Sorry, but no.  That's stuff is protected by WotC copyright, and we don't allow folks to distribute such.  I've removed the attachment for you.

Carry on!


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## UngeheuerLich (Sep 16, 2010)

show me the area burst 3 power of the sorcere and i surrender... and tell me what an evocation wizard is all about if not blasting things. It is not that you should only blast things up. But it is really nice to be able to do it sometimes... not everyone wants to play an only control wizard (like illusionist or enchanter). You are taking the role thing too seriously...

http://www.wizards.com/dndinsider/compendium/power.aspx?id=1615
show me a socerer power that matches this damage output...


sorry erf Beto.

My last word on this issue.


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## Plane Sailing (Sep 16, 2010)

UngeheuerLich said:


> a simple reagent that cost only 200gp will add ongoing fire damage 5...




Did I miss this somewhere? Or has it been introduced later?


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## UngeheuerLich (Sep 16, 2010)

adventurers vault 1... so rather sooner than later...

But consumables or ritual materials are widely known as money sink on these boards... or maybe most people did`t get farther than the superior weapon page... 

http://www.wizards.com/dndinsider/compendium/item.aspx?id=3434


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## Loincloth of Armour (Sep 16, 2010)

A fireball 'fix' I'm kind of fond of was thought up by someone else (I can't remember who).

Just add:

Effect: Target is knocked prone. Target can choose not to be knocked prone, in which case it takes ongoing 5 fire (save ends).


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## Nork (Sep 16, 2010)

I don't think it is too much of a threadjack, as fireball is an essentials mage spell.  The conversation got onto fireball when it was pointed out that fountain of flame does virtually the same damage, but has other features to make it a good spell, while fireball has features to make it a not so good spell.

So you can really think of this as "why is fountain of flame good, while fireball is so lackluster".

I personally think the answer is: While damage is cool, wizards need to bring more than damage to justify being a wizard instead of re-rolling as a striker and just helping the party more.

Fountain of flame does this by doing damage on par with fireball, being enemy only, and creating an enemy only damage zone that doesn't need to be sustained.

The burst 3 on fireball just isn't useful in practice, because you are going to hit your own party members.  Damage AoEs are a major threat against party members because healing surges matter to them.  Damage AoEs are not a major threat to monsters because they don't care about finishing 3-4 encounters before running out of surges, all they care about is staying in the combat for as long as possible to deal damage and force healing surge use by PCs.  

Focusing fire reduces the total monster "up time" more than spreading around AoE damage does.

Controller powers reduces the total monster "up time" by either turn stealing effects, forcing monsters to attack party members with high defenses, sweep several minions with a single standard action, or create punishment zones that deal out huge amounts of damage over the combat if they are violated.

Swishing some AoE damage around isn't useless, but it is far less useful than the two previous options.

Fireball is bad, because all five party members can't cast fireball, and even if they could, they'd not all roll high enough to all go first.  So the monsters would get into the party, and then the fireballs with a burst 3 would just end up hitting party members, or catching as many monsters as would be hit by a nastier spell with a smaller burst.


Not everything a character does has to be super optimized.  However, if you've ever been in a game where everyone brought a sub-par character, it really messes the game up.  It is pretty aggravating for a DM to have a party that will suffocate when they are placed inside a wet paper bag, as it involves a lot of work to constantly come up with ways to "fix" adventures because the PCs get hammered by easy combats.


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## Zaran (Sep 16, 2010)

What I would like to know is whether these new builds of wizard outclass the old ones.  Also I would like to know how they deal with exchanging spells after an extended rest.


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## alastersan (Sep 16, 2010)

Umbran said:


> Sorry, but no.  That's stuff is protected by WotC copyright, and we don't allow folks to distribute such.  I've removed the attachment for you.




Ok, Ty Umbran, just asking.


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## alastersan (Sep 16, 2010)

Zaran said:


> What I would like to know is whether these new builds of wizard outclass the old ones.





It depends if they change the original wizard, adding the new spellbook features (encounters and don't forget spells) and give then for free suggestion and magic missile. If not i think the mage can outclass the wizard.


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## UngeheuerLich (Sep 16, 2010)

Nork said:


> zip




range 20

+200 gold = all minions killed

you are not forced to take it... but it is better than you make it...

there are times when the party can just use the surprise round to blast the enemies at range, when they are in a formation or whatever...

it is not the typical balanced encounter, but it happens

.
.
.
.
.

(except when you play put your creatures on the battle map and start rolling kind of game)

edit: a fountain at an open place is wasted...

fireball is an outdoor spell... it has always been...


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## UngainlyTitan (Sep 16, 2010)

alastersan said:


> It depends if they change the original wizard, adding the new spellbook features (encounters and don't forget spells) and give then for free suggestion and magic missile. If not i think the mage can outclass the wizard.



Does anyone know if this is the case? I have not see any thing about it but I am not sure that implement mastery is worth all the goodeis the essentials mage apperars to have.


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## Nightfly (Sep 16, 2010)

Zaran said:


> What I would like to know is whether these new builds of wizard outclass the old ones.




Seems that way to me, yes. "Mage" build wizards get all of the following benefits:

* Magic Missile as an extra at-will
* Suggestion as an extra encounter power
* Encounter powers can be added to spellbook
* At level one, choice of brutal 1 on all evocation spells, or increase forced movement by 2 on all enchantment spells, or inflict -2 on attacks vs you with all illusion spells
* At level four, another choice from the list above
* At level five, +2 on two skills
* At level eight, +2 on two more skills
* At level ten, ignore enemy resistances against evocation spells, or enemy forced attacks from enchantment spells gain +2, or illusion spells cause target to grant combat advantage vs next attack

Taken as a whole, that's pretty impressive. There's no one thing on the list that's as good as the traditional benefits like Wand of Accuracy (except the "reroll a one" for evocation spells, which is really strong for blaster wizards). But when you look at all of that, I think the classic wizard builds get left in the dust for most people. 

However, I wouldn't be surprised to see the first three items on the list given to non-essentials wizards as well. We'll have to see.


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## Vael (Sep 16, 2010)

The reroll isn't that strong. You can reroll one 1, and must keep the reroll, it's not a proper brutal effect.

So the Evoker Wizard that just rolled four 1's on his Fireball can reroll one of those 1's ... and must keep the reroll even if it's another 1.


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## UngainlyTitan (Sep 16, 2010)

Vael said:


> The reroll isn't that strong. You can reroll one 1, and must keep the reroll, it's not a proper brutal effect.
> 
> So the Evoker Wizard that just rolled four 1's on his Fireball can reroll one of those 1's ... and must keep the reroll even if it's another 1.



It might not be that great on a daily but it will be pretty good on encounter and at will powers.


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## Nightfly (Sep 16, 2010)

Vael said:


> The reroll isn't that strong. You can reroll one 1, and must keep the reroll, it's not a proper brutal effect.
> 
> So the Evoker Wizard that just rolled four 1's on his Fireball can reroll one of those 1's ... and must keep the reroll even if it's another 1.




You can pick a worst-case scenario and run with it, but I'm not sure that tells the whole tale. Sometimes I keep rolling very low or very high -- that doesn't mean Wand of Accuracy isn't good. Sometimes I'll go several encounters in a row without wanting to replace the spells I've prepared -- that doesn't mean Tome of Readiness isn't good. And yeah, sometimes you'll roll a one twice, but this is still a very strong power for certain builds. 

If I were playing a genasi blaster wizard, I'd like this ability even if I could only use it once per encounter. Since it actually can be used every single attack roll...come on, that's pretty good. I've hit as many as seven monsters in one attack using Flame Shroud;  changing a roll of one to a roll of five would equal 28 more damage. More control-based wizards won't care about that, but I'm sure some optimization-crazed blaster wizards out there are salivating over this feature. It's not game-breaking, but it's pretty nice.


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## Stalker0 (Sep 16, 2010)

The problem with fireball isn't that its damage only, its that for a wizard its a crappy damage only spell.

The main reason is its a single blast, over and done with. Most good wizard dailies last the whole fight.

Look at the wizard's 1st level daily (Flaming Sphere).

The sphere does great autodamage that lasts the whole fight. I can kill minions with it, I can add terrible damage to a solo, or I can just roll through groups of monsters and do damage.

4e combats last long enough that the damage over time for Flaming Sphere is much greater than that of fireball, and you have less chance of scorching your friends.


I will also say that I considered fireball weak when I compare it to wizard dailies (who have the best dailies in the game) not to all dailies. If a sorc had fireball he would be happy.

But wizards get the really good dailies so its important to consider that (also the reason I didn't understand giving half effects to wizard encounter powers...I don't think they need it but that's another discussion).


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## Vael (Sep 16, 2010)

Nightfly said:


> You can pick a worst-case scenario and run with it, but I'm not sure that tells the whole tale. Sometimes I keep rolling very low or very high -- that doesn't mean Wand of Accuracy isn't good.




Oh, don't get me wrong, it's a nice ability, but I didn't want the assumption that it's the same as the Brutal property on weapons, because it's not. 

Also, I'm just not sure if the school bonuses are superior to the Core Wizard's Arcane Implement Mastery and free Ritual Casting.


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## Plane Sailing (Sep 16, 2010)

Loincloth of Armour said:


> A fireball 'fix' I'm kind of fond of was thought up by someone else (I can't remember who).
> 
> Just add:
> 
> Effect: Target is knocked prone. Target can choose not to be knocked prone, in which case it takes ongoing 5 fire (save ends).




You could make it more action-movie-genre-appropriate by saying

Effect: target takes ongoing 5 fire (save ends), although target can choose to dive into a prone position as the fireball goes off, resulting in being prone but not subject to ongoing 5 fire.

It isn't as clearly written as yours, but it IS the classic action movie response to an explosion!


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## Zaran (Sep 16, 2010)

Stalker0 said:


> I will also say that I considered fireball weak when I compare it to wizard dailies (who have the best dailies in the game) not to all dailies. If a sorc had fireball he would be happy.




You know they wouldn't have had this much heat if they had just made Fireball an encounter power.  Fire Burst would have made a perfect fireball.  My wizard changed fireball out as soon as she got Fire Burst.

Who ever heard of a wizard memorizing just one anyway?


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## Zaran (Sep 16, 2010)

I do apologize for causing all this talk about fireballs. I was just wondering the level of Flame Fountain. 

I think this another case of lower level powers being better than higher level ones. 

Are there any summoning spells that a 1st level eWizard can get? I really can't stand Summon Fire Warrior.


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## Nightfly (Sep 16, 2010)

Vael said:


> Also, I'm just not sure if the school bonuses are superior to the Core Wizard's Arcane Implement Mastery and free Ritual Casting.




You know, it slipped my mind that essentials wizards don't get Ritual Casting for free. That's a great point. I stubbornly persist in liking rituals, even though I never seem to be able to actually cast them.



Zaran said:


> Are there any summoning spells that a 1st level eWizard can get? I really can't stand Summon Fire Warrior.




No summoning spells at any level, actually.


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## alastersan (Sep 16, 2010)

Nightfly said:


> You know, it slipped my mind that essentials wizards don't get Ritual Casting for free. That's a great point. I stubbornly persist in liking rituals, even though I never seem to be able to actually cast them.




The problem is that i think they don't want to complicate the book with tons of rituals and its mechanic, i would suggest to your DM, if they like to use rituals that give the feat for free to the mage and priest. May be in the optional rules book next year you will have it.


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## UngeheuerLich (Sep 16, 2010)

the mage has enough features... so giving ritual for free is really not necessary... there are enough cheap ways to get it... (bard multiclass etc... e.g.)


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## Marshall (Sep 16, 2010)

Nightfly said:


> Seems that way to me, yes. "Mage" build wizards get all of the following benefits:
> * Suggestion as an extra encounter power




Havent seen this mentioned but this isnt true. _Suggestion_ is added to the list of Cantrips and then Mages get to select 3. Minor debuff to the class that explains the _Prestidigitation_ change.


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## UngainlyTitan (Sep 16, 2010)

UngeheuerLich said:


> the mage has enough features... so giving ritual for free is really not necessary... there are enough cheap ways to get it... (bard multiclass etc... e.g.)



Is there some reason the mage cannot take the ritual caster feat? they are trained in Arcana, No?


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## Nork (Sep 16, 2010)

UngeheuerLich said:


> range 20
> 
> +200 gold = all minions killed
> 
> ...




I just think you are evaluating fireball outside of a reasonable context...

Spend 200 gold when you cast it?  

When the context is that for a standard level 5 party, the Wizard's cut of the gold for the entire level is 400 gold... That doesn't seem reasonable.


No, you are not forced to take it, and no it isn't worthless.

However, in the context of choosing between fireball and other level 5 wizard spells, it is bad.

It is bad like a +3 sword is "bad" like if the DM says "you can have a +3 sword or a +5 sword, pick one".  Yea, the +3 sword isn't useless, but in the context of choosing one, it really is the bad option.

You can choose the +3 sword, you can get it done with the worse option, but the rest of the party is going to have to pick up your slack.  If the whole party picks +3 swords instead of +5 swords, then it generally leads to combat dysfunction and the DM gets a headache.


When my level 5 wizard is sitting there with a spellbook containing  Stinking Cloud, Vision of Avarice, Magma Beast and Fireball...  Fireball  never gets picked.  If I'm going to fight some dudes with a lot of minions on a field somewhere, I'll break out the stinking cloud every time.


If you want fireball for roleplaying reasons, there there isn't any reason in the world that your roleplaying would be harmed one bit by WotC making fireball stack up to the level 5 wizard spells on a mechanical level.


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## Pseudonym (Sep 17, 2010)

We started a new game this past Tuesday featuring a Knight and an Evoker Mage (my character).  I'd have to say that aside from this being my first controller character, it was pretty fun and I think perhaps overpowered a bit. Granted I lack a bit of perspective on controllers.

I too took Arc Lightning as an at-will. It was fun, and used several times to good effect.  On thing though, it is range 20 which targets one or two targets. Fine so far, but it gives no indication as to how far apart the two targets can be. Could you shoot one target 20 squares to your left and one target 20 squares to your right?

I also took Fountain of Flame. Damn that's a fine spell.  A daily, but wow, especially coupled with the Staff of the War Mage to make it Blast 2. That's a whole lot of territory.

Ad to that the ability of the evoker to reroll a one on a set of dice and you've got some serious damage potential. I'll have to play more to see how things look, but it seems that the Essentials Mage is a lot of fun.

As a side note, I played a human and had Implement Focus (staff) and Staff Mastery, which I think might be too good of a feat. *shrug*


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## Tony Vargas (Sep 17, 2010)

Pseudonym said:


> I too took Arc Lightning as an at-will. It was fun, and used several times to good effect.  On thing though, it is range 20 which targets one or two targets. Fine so far, but it gives no indication as to how far apart the two targets can be. Could you shoot one target 20 squares to your left and one target 20 squares to your right?



Yes.  4e powers are usually pretty litteral.  I questioned that kind of thing initially, too, since in AD&D there was very often an addtional restriction on how close the targets needed to be together.  4e would handle that by making it a burst power that targeted one or two creatures in the burst.


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## Aegeri (Sep 17, 2010)

Pseudonym said:


> I too took Arc Lightning as an at-will. It was fun, and used several  times to good effect.  On thing though, it is range 20 which targets one  or two targets. Fine so far, but it gives no indication as to how far  apart the two targets can be. Could you shoot one target 20 squares to  your left and one target 20 squares to your right?




Yes you can. As long as the targets are within 20 squares of you it doesn't matter where they are in relation to one another.


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## Mapache (Sep 17, 2010)

Marshall said:


> Havent seen this mentioned but this isnt true. _Suggestion_ is added to the list of Cantrips and then Mages get to select 3. Minor debuff to the class that explains the _Prestidigitation_ change.




It's not so much a debuff as a change from having a cantrip to having an at-will attack, when you realize that they're getting compensated with Magic Missile.  Effectively, Wizards get 4 cantrips and 2 at-will attacks, while Mages get 3 cantrips and 3 at-will attacks.  And, indeed, the Prestidigitation change is to remove the aspect that duplicates part of what Mage Hand does, which was never an issue before because nearly everyone with Prestidigitation also had Mage Hand (whether through being a Wizard or Hybrid Wizard, owning Hedge Wizard Gloves, or taking the Fey Trickster feat), with only a Magician's Ring getting you Prestidigitation without its manipulative cousin.


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## soundslikeiuz (Sep 17, 2010)

For the Fireball threadjack: I houseruled fireball to let the wizard keep casting it as a standard action throughout the encounter. That keeps it relevant, but after the first round, when monsters close in, the wizard usually burns party members with monsters (i ok'd this houserule because I knew the player didn't care about collateral damage - he's taken down all his party members at least once 

For the OP: I was surprised by your rave review of Arc Lightning. What made it so effective during actual gameplay? Was it the 20 range? The one or two targets seems nice, but just how effective was that during the encounters?

As for Hypnotism, was it that hard to use? I admit that I really liked the preview of this spell, but your experiences in actual gameplay may make me re-consider. Was it that opportunities to use it never turned up - no heavy damage dealing brutes that would make the risk of a double roll worth it? 

tia


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## UngeheuerLich (Sep 17, 2010)

ardoughter said:


> Is there some reason the mage cannot take the ritual caster feat? they are trained in Arcana, No?



No, but it is the most expensive way...


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## UngeheuerLich (Sep 17, 2010)

Nork said:


> snip




I think you are wrong...

I will only use that 200g in the same places where I use my rituals... when the party shares the costs...

I will only memorize it when I expect using it against an army in the open...

It is not the +3 sword vs a +5 sword, it is a +3 sword (+6) if poisoned vs a +5 sword...

you always use the +5 sword (stored in your spellbook) and only take out the other one if the situation warrants it.

You have the spellbook feature... don´t forget that.


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## Nightfly (Sep 17, 2010)

soundslikeiuz said:


> For the OP: I was surprised by your rave review of Arc Lightning. What made it so effective during actual gameplay? Was it the 20 range? The one or two targets seems nice, but just how effective was that during the encounters?




Arc Lightning was nothing special, but sometimes you don't need anything special. Beguiling Strands was clearly the best at-will: it massacred minions, ruined enemy positioning, and improved ally positioning. But when the minions were all dead and my party had the bad guys set up where they wanted them, Arc Lightning was a really solid smack-the-monster spell to fall back on. Although it was not my best at-will, it was the one I cast the most. 

Mind you, I still probably wouldn't take that spell on a real character, because there are too many good controller-y at-wills available. And as good as it was in this RPGA game, Phantasmal Assault would have been better (we had a multiclass rogue that had trouble getting combat advantage). But Arc Lightning is solid enough. When a level 3 non-striker is dishing out 22 total damage with an at-will, that's not trifling. Even a controller sometimes wants to impose the "dead" condition.  



soundslikeiuz said:


> As for Hypnotism, was it that hard to use? I admit that I really liked  the preview of this spell, but your experiences in actual gameplay may  make me re-consider. Was it that opportunities to use it never turned up  - no heavy damage dealing brutes that would make the risk of a double  roll worth it?




No. I can only recall one monster that seemed to hit hard enough that Hypnotism might have been worth it, and I don't think it was ever adjacent to another. Also, that monster had a grab, so I was busy using Beguiling Strands to keep breaking it.

If the spell didn't have the word "adjacent" in it, I could have found a use for it. I was surprised how rarely two monsters were side-by-side: the ranged enemies never were, and the melee enemies were usually trying to flank or run past the defender. And even when they were adjacent, well, why not just Arc Lightning them both and skip the low-percentage combo stuff?

Honestly, if a power needs TWO successful die rolls to do something, it better be something awfully good. Knocked unconscious, like Sleep does? Sure. Deliver, say, 1d12+6 melee damage? No. I'm not saying Hypnotism could never be useful, even massively useful, but it seems to me to be very, very situational. I will try it out again sometime and see if works better for me with a different party and module.


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## Stalker0 (Sep 17, 2010)

Nightfly said:


> Honestly, if a power needs TWO successful die rolls to do something, it better be something awfully good. Knocked unconscious, like Sleep does? Sure. Deliver, say, 1d12+6 melee damage? No. I'm not saying Hypnotism could never be useful, even massively useful, but it seems to me to be very, very situational.




I'll agree with this. The two hit clause of the spell makes it pretty hard to successfully pull off, even with the +4 bonus.

The saving grace is the stronger the bad guys basic attacks are (and for some enemies they are pretty strong), then the strong this becomes.


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## ObsidianCrane (Sep 17, 2010)

UngeheuerLich said:


> show me the area burst 3 power of the sorcerer and i surrender...



Cool Prismatic Storm. Glad we solved that then...

You might want to consider that there are also 24 more Wizard daily attack powers than there are Sorcerer ones, and Wizards lack a power that lets you turn into a Dragon and eat your enemies...



UngeheuerLich said:


> http://www.wizards.com/dndinsider/compendium/power.aspx?id=1615
> show me a sorcerer power that matches this damage output...



No problems.

Swords of the Marilith, Blizzard, Veil of the Dragon

1 last point. Instance damage isn't the key here. Doing a lot of damage 1x is largely irrelevant. Doing a lot of damage every attack is what matters, and for blasting things sorcerers trump wizards in that regard with no problems.

Now the new Evoker might well change that equation around, but it will not be with second class spells like Fireball.

And I'm done.


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## UngeheuerLich (Sep 17, 2010)

Cailte said:


> ... and Wizards lack a power that lets you turn into a Dragon and eat your enemies...




damned, you really won... there is absolutely nothing to counter this...


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## Truename (Sep 17, 2010)

UngeheuerLich said:


> damned, you really won... there is absolutely nothing to counter this...




Well, there is that red box spell that lets you turn your enemies into frikken' _toads_. As a level 1 daily.

Looking forward to the Transmutation mage that's got to be in the works somewhere.


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## UngeheuerLich (Sep 17, 2010)

The best is, you can turn them into a toad, transform yourself into a dragon and eat the toad.


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## Joshua Randall (Sep 17, 2010)

Nice write-up, Nightfly.



Nightfly said:


> I really wanted to try out Phantom Cage (single target vs will, 1d8+int psychic damage, "if the target moves before the end of your next turn, it takes 5 psychic damage") but didn't want to get into rules lawyering. From the wording, it seems to me that the target would take damage every time it moves, voluntarily or not, but I'm not sure that's clear.



Thanks to page 200 of the Essentials Rules Compendium, we know the answer to this:



> *move*: Any instance of movement, whether it is done willingly or unwillingly. Whenever a creature [...] leaves a square to enter another, it is moving.



So yes, Phantom Cage damages the target even if the target is forced to move.


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## epochrpg (Sep 17, 2010)

Can you target an ally with Hypnotism?  I don't see why you *shouldn't* be able to- and if you can, that is even better than the Warlord's at-will.


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## Tony Vargas (Sep 17, 2010)

I believe a designer commented shortly after the sample Mage was posted that the final version of Hypnotism targeted enemies.


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## Nightfly (Sep 17, 2010)

Joshua Randall said:


> So yes, Phantom Cage damages the target even if the target is forced to move.




Agreed. PH3 contains a similar definition of "move" that should settle any argument there.

A better question is: does the enemy take damage every time it moves? It seems to me the answer is yes, since the spell doesn't say"...the *first time* the target moves..." If so, Phantom Cage is an awfully strong power. A creature has to approach us to attack, the fighter hits it with Tide of Iron, the druid hits it with Savage Rend, then I Beguiling Strands it next turn...that's 20 damage from movement over one round. Seems to me a cleverly built party could really rock a solo with that power.



epochrpg said:


> Can you target an ally with Hypnotism?  I don't  see why you *shouldn't* be able to- and if you can, that is even better  than the Warlord's at-will.




No. It targets "one enemy". Brilliant idea, though.


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## keterys (Sep 17, 2010)

As far as I can tell, it only damages once. Just like Hellish Rebuke and Dire Radiance.


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## Joshua Randall (Sep 17, 2010)

Nightfly said:


> A better question is: does the enemy take damage every time it moves? It seems to me the answer is yes, since the spell doesn't say"...the *first time* the target moves..."



Agreed.



> If so, Phantom Cage is an awfully strong power. A creature has to approach us to attack, the fighter hits it with Tide of Iron, the druid hits it with Savage Rend, then I Beguiling Strands it next turn...that's 20 damage from movement over one round.



Honestly, if your party goes to that much trouble against one enemy, they deserve the extra 20 damage. The game is built upon clever combinations of powers like that.


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## Stalker0 (Sep 18, 2010)

I would hope phantom cage deals +5 damage per square of movement, else the power is pretty weak to me.

+5 damage isn't going to stop anything from moving imo, but +20 might.


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## Colmarr (Sep 18, 2010)

Joshua Randall said:


> So yes, Phantom Cage damages the target even if the target is forced to move.




Nice catch.

Not sure it strictly speaking solves the "if" vs "when" distinction I drew earlier in the thread, but I'm willing to believe that if it was meant to be "if" they would have said something like "the next time the enemy moves before the end of your next turn".

Edit: Guess someone beat me to it.


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## Caragaran (Sep 19, 2010)

Regarding Phantom Cage I am sure the intention is for one set of 5 damage if it moves. The whole stacking movement damage was a major problem with the bloodmage paragon path and they nerfed that to voluntary movement for 5 per movement point used. It used to say per square (and d6) so rule lawyers would cast it on a larger monster then slid it diagonally for a lot of damage (the d6 would get implement bonus etc) there are combos for this slide plus damage out there.

The language indicates it is once, if it was everytime he moved it would say that but then it could interpreted to be 5 damge for evey movement so 5 damage from a slide 3, 5 from a push 1 then 5 from charging the mage who cast it. it most definately isnt 5 damage for each square.


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## alastersan (Sep 21, 2010)

Anyone can tell me please, how is the Mage (Evoker) Epic destiny?

i am near 21 and my DM asked for my epic destiny for role-playing reasons, for now i want to be Paneshaper but if the new epic destiny is good may be i will take it. i'm waiting for my book at amazon uk, but i think, with luck i will have it the 10 days.

Thank you in advance


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## Marshall (Sep 21, 2010)

alastersan said:


> Anyone can tell me please, how is the Mage (Evoker) Epic destiny?
> 
> i am near 21 and my DM asked for my epic destiny for role-playing reasons, for now i want to be Planeshaper but if the new epic destiny is good may be i will take it. i'm waiting for my book at amazon uk, but i think, with luck i will have it the 10 days.
> 
> Thank you in advance




Its a slightly different version of Demigod/Chosen. Unless you think you'll hit 24 before you get the book just use that.


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## alastersan (Sep 21, 2010)

The problem is that i have to choose one ED and i am not sure witch one i like more, i don't like too much the demingod. Have the mage ED something cool, any use for CON?, i suppose it gives +2 INT, +2 CON (evoker)?

Can anyone post at least resumed features please?


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## drothgery (Sep 21, 2010)

alastersan said:


> The problem is that i have to choose one ED and i am not sure witch one i like more, i don't like too much the demingod. Have the mage ED something cool, any use for CON?, i suppose it gives +2 INT, +2 CON (evoker)?
> 
> Can anyone post at least resumed features please?




There isn't a 'mage' Epic Destiny in Heroes of the Fallen Lands; there's one Epic Destiny provided for all of the classes.

Indomitable Champion's features are
21: Epic Heroism - bonus to two ability scores
24: Epic Resilience - bonus hit points, bonus to all defenses
26: Epic Tenacity (power) - daily/recover if below 0 HP
30: Unmatched Defenses (power) - daily/treat an attack as a natural 1


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## alastersan (Sep 21, 2010)

drothgery said:


> There isn't a 'mage' Epic Destiny in Heroes of the Fallen Lands; there's one Epic Destiny provided for all of the classes.
> 
> Indomitable Champion's features are
> 21: Epic Heroism - bonus to two ability scores
> ...




Ty very much.


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## Obryn (Sep 23, 2010)

Holy crap.

Beguiling Strands destroyed an entire field full of minions tonight.

Additionally, because the character is an Enchanter with Orb Expertise, it shoved all my other monsters back 6 squares.

I was skeptical about its power relative to Thunderwave, but now I am sold.  It's an insanely good At-Will.

-O


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## Aegeri (Sep 23, 2010)

It's damage is a secondary concern for that power, what it does is battlefield rearrangement (and IIRC is ally friendly) and it does it exceptionally well. It's a fantastic controller at-will.


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## UngeheuerLich (Sep 23, 2010)

Tony Vargas said:


> I believe a designer commented shortly after the sample Mage was posted that the final version of Hypnotism targeted enemies.



Actually, most powers that target enemies can also target allies...

but it is an offensive act and will be perceived in this way... and of course, you need to hit (break) the will of your ally first...


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## keterys (Sep 23, 2010)

UngeheuerLich said:


> Actually, most powers that target enemies can also target allies...




Can you give an example?


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## UngeheuerLich (Sep 23, 2010)

i don´t need examples:

I declare my ally as my enemy. Thats it. For at least this attack he doesn´t count as my ally anymore... (no warlord bonuses etc...)

The only things i consider enemy only are passive powers that trigger on enemy deaths etc.


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## keterys (Sep 23, 2010)

Heh, there was a discussion the other week about the legality of doing so. It was pretty widely decried, but it's possible, yes, and there will be table variation.

At any rate, so the argument is that target 'one creature' is almost identical to target 'one enemy' because you can selectively un-ally people, which is likely never RAI, as otherwise there would be no point in the clarification.

For Essentials tables, you should never make that argument. That's not the point of Essentials.


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## UngeheuerLich (Sep 23, 2010)

I would never suggest this on any table.

On the other hand, IF a player asks me to attack an ally with an enemy only spell, i  won´t go into the discussion and tell him he is not allowed to do so...

I think a good example would be the Bard "Shout of Triumph" power, were there is a good reason to make a distinction between enemy and ally:

Each enemy in blast
Hit: 1d6 + Charisma modifier (+4) thunder
damage, and you push the target 1 square.
Effect: You slide each ally in the blast 1 square

Of course you can attack your former allies with this blast, but you would not be allowed to also shift them.


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## Plane Sailing (Sep 25, 2010)

UngeheuerLich said:


> I think you are wrong...
> 
> I will only use that 200g in the same places where I use my rituals... when the party shares the costs...
> 
> ...




I don't think he is wrong - in an open field stinking cloud still kills minions far better than a fireball with 200gp of extra zap added to it.

The only time I can think of when you would be better off with fireball is if you were fighting undead or something else immune to poison and not immue to fire. Otherwise stinking cloud pwns fireball in pretty much every single damage causing contingency.

Regards


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## Plane Sailing (Sep 25, 2010)

Nightfly said:


> Agreed. PH3 contains a similar definition of "move" that should settle any argument there.
> 
> A better question is: does the enemy take damage every time it moves? It seems to me the answer is yes, since the spell doesn't say"...the *first time* the target moves..." If so, Phantom Cage is an awfully strong power. A creature has to approach us to attack, the fighter hits it with Tide of Iron, the druid hits it with Savage Rend, then I Beguiling Strands it next turn...that's 20 damage from movement over one round. Seems to me a cleverly built party could really rock a solo with that power.




I would say 'no', and I think you are looking for a 'dangerous' precedent. 

It would be generally much safer to assume that out of two possible options the least damaging one is in force unless expressly called out. Thus unless the spell says "*every time* the target moves... " it should only take effect on the first move. "if he moves at all".

Otherwise you open yourself up to all manner of unexpected tricks which turn an ordinary spell into a super-spell, which is against the principles of 4e.

Cheers


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