# Thinking about Warhammer?



## arcanaman (Nov 29, 2008)

I wasjust wondering if anyone here as ever played a warhammer setting I have never played one before but am intrested in looking it up what are some of the major differences between warhammer and dnd?


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## pawsplay (Nov 29, 2008)

I've heard it summarized as, "The PCs think they are in D&D, but the world is actually Call of Cthulhu." It's a great little setting, full of Moorcockian metaphysics, gonzo Heavy Metal/Jabberwocky aesthetics, and big, big weapons. Scarring and limb loss is common, insanity is a hazard of heroism, and it's just loads of fun to play.


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## frankthedm (Nov 29, 2008)

Big differences: 

WFRP characters are dirt poor most of the time. 

D&D is about having HP gradually worn down hit after hit, while WFRP is about avoiding being hit or hopefully soaking all the damage of a blow. You activly defend by parrying atacks and possibly dodging. You have a chance of being whittled down, but taking hit after hit also means a good chance of triggering one of the games open ended damage rolls.

Armor in WFRP absorbs damage making armor really desirable. It lets you soak wounds: 1 {leather], 3{Chain over Leather] or 5 {Plate over chain over leather]

Characters do not skyrocket in power or durability. 
*You start with 10-12 wounds, you'll end with 16-20.
*Damage does not increase very much at all. Start at 1d10+3 , end up at 1d10+6 or 7
*Before armor you soak two to three wounds per hit at start, later on you might be soaking 5, maybe 6 if you are lucky.

Player characers are special because they have fate and luck on their side{fate points], *not* because their stats are much better than an NPC.  The players use up fate points to survive otherwise fatal situations, wind up instead worse for wear, but _mostly_ intact. Those "fate points" also bestow "fortune points" which are used for rerolls and extra chances to parry /dodge.

Missile fire is dangerous. _Modern/Sci-fi_ "Run for cover you fool!" dangerous.

Magic is chancy to use and the civilized world loaths it. Any spell has at least a 10% chance of an unintended concequence. As a caster you can use it over and over, but you might not want to.

The WFRP encumbrance system needs work.


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## ValhallaGH (Nov 29, 2008)

The Warhammer settings are nasty.

40,000: Science fiction universe of eternal war and oppression.  All humanity is (basically) united into one Empire, a theotractic dictatorship with some serious differences in technology levels across the realm.  There are a number of deadly alien races (Tau, Necrons, Eldar, Orks) whose mere existence helps add stability to the Empire while threatening to wipe out our species (or at least all of our existing cultures).  Additionally, there are the forces of Chaos, determined to consume and warp all that is to their evil purposes.  Chaos is both overt and covert in its approach, using corruption and invasion as it can.  If Chaos were unified and organized then it would win, but it wouldn't be Chaos anymore.
Hope exists but it's a very grim universe.

Fantasy: It's already a lost cause, but most people are too stubborn or ignorant to realize it.  Chaos is still the big bad, and it operates the same way, but in the Fantasy setting it's winning, big time.  Chaos has a permanent foothold at the northern end of the main continent, allowing it to continually invade the rest of the world, thus distracting the heroes and armies that might be able to cleanse the spreading corruption of Chaos infiltrators.
Dwarves and elves are real, but fading.  Neither one is particularly friendly, either to each other or to humans, and tense relations are exacerbated by very long memories, especially for slights.
Humans are no longer united, and their several nations waste much time and resources fighting each other rather than fending off the growing incursions of Chaos (both invasion from the north and locally risen cults and monstrocities in their own lands).  The helpful gods are waning, but the stubborn peoples of the Empire, Bretonnia, and the smaller lands are still fighting on.
It's grim, deadly, and probably a lost cause.  There just aren't enough heroes to keep Chaos from getting stronger, and even heroes get killed in the struggles.  It's just a matter of time until Chaos claims all the world, unless something miraculous happens.


Both settings are grim, gritty, and rely upon dangers of the body, sanity and soul to keep them interesting.
It's my opinion that the Fantasy guys have gone too far in the direction of making things bad, as there is not currently any real hope of doing more than slowing down the advance of Chaos.  
I feel that the 40K guys have done a much better job of maintaining a dynamic balance in the setting that keeps it dangerous (on personal and galactic scales) while still allowing for the hope of eventual victory.


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## pawsplay (Nov 29, 2008)

ValhallaGH said:


> It's my opinion that the Fantasy guys have gone too far in the direction of making things bad, as there is not currently any real hope of doing more than slowing down the advance of Chaos.




Classic swords-and-sorcery. In Conan, civilization led to weakness, but barbarism invited predation and supernatural danger.  In Vance's _The Dying Earth_, Earth is unquestionably dying out, and the characters are the last of humanity meandering around on Earth before the magicians and sprites leave for other places of existence. Corum's people are becoming extinct. Elric's people are evil, but the encroachment of humanity represents something of a downfall as well, with humans little more than animals compared to the heartless, but erudite, Melniboneans.


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## ValhallaGH (Nov 30, 2008)

pawsplay said:


> Classic swords-and-sorcery.



Objection.
Conan is probably the paragon of sword-and-sorcery fiction (as is most of Robert Howard's library).  Conan's world is far from hopeless (as is the world of every one of Howard's heroes except Bran Mak Morn).  Quite the opposite, really, since a human with will, courage, and a body hardened by privation can overcome any of the dangers that world can produce.  Howard's stories are so filled with hope that it nearly suffocates the Lovecraft-ian elements of his fiction, given that the unknowable horrors from beyond the world can actually be beaten back when you're Conan.

Sword and Sorcery doesn't have to be hopeless.  In fact, most of the good stuff is very hopeful, with brave heroes overcoming desperate odds to make the world a better place.  
End Objection.

Some settings (Dying Earth is a prime example) don't have any hope left, just a desperate struggle to last as long as you can.  I'm simply saying that Warhammer Fantasy is one of those settings.  I appreciate you agreeing with me.


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## pawsplay (Nov 30, 2008)

ValhallaGH said:


> Objection.
> Conan is probably the paragon of sword-and-sorcery fiction (as is most of Robert Howard's library).  Conan's world is far from hopeless (as is the world of every one of Howard's heroes except Bran Mac Born).




Really? The Atlantean age is long gone, civilization has pushed back the borders on the "barbarians" and degenerate cults flourish. There is literally no good place for an honest, brave man... Conan survives only through his sheer power. He is the hero exactly for that reason, not because he is going to make the world a better place or retire comfortably or whatever. Conan is a hero because he is unbent and unshackled in a world that eventually destroys everyone and everything.

Robert Howard died by suicide.


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## ValhallaGH (Nov 30, 2008)

pawsplay said:


> Really?



Truly.  Among other things, Howard saw the age of Conan as being a part of the world's true history; at a minimum he always wrote it like it was.

Yes, the world of Conan is a pile of crap, and things will get worse if no one stands up and faces the evils that walk the Earth.  Times of trouble are needed to create great heroes, and that's what Howard's heroes were, great.  Conan was the greatest of them all, and he lived in the worst of Howard's worlds; even so, he could beat back the darkness, inspire a nation to change its ways, and turn his nation into a beacon of hope and prosperity that led the world back from the abyss.  Conan led his kingdom so well that the forces of darkness took to sending nearly-invulnerable assassins to his bed chambers (_Pheonix on the Sword_) to kill him and tear apart his kingdom, and Conan still won.
I'd call that some hopeful fiction.

I suspect that Howard had a fundamentally Nordic belief, that the world is inevitably screwed and all we can do is face fate as best we can.  Much of his work has that tinge of "it won't matter in a thousand years" thinking that permeates the tales of Ragnarok.  There is both courage and cowardice in that line of thought, and I don't cozen that.  I'll take the straight courage of forging my own fate, and accepting the responsibility for it.


> Robert Howard died by suicide.



Yes, he did.  Which makes the underlying threads of hope in his fiction all the more tragic for the fact that he didn't see them, or didn't agree with them.  (Unless you buy the corrupting Cthulhu theory about his suicide.)  But I really think we shouldn't discuss suicide, and the thoughts of those who have committed it.  It's not tasteful and could quickly become disrespectful.


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## pawsplay (Nov 30, 2008)

_Conan was the greatest of them all, and he lived in the worst of Howard's worlds; even so, he could beat back the darkness, inspire a nation to change its ways, and turn his nation into a beacon of hope and prosperity that led the world back from the abyss. _

I recall him conquering a kingdom, then getting soft and losing everything. At the end of the stories in which he conquers a great evil, he is inevitibly alone and penniless by the end. Witness _People of the Black Circle_ in which he saves a people from servitude, slays a sorcerer, and inspires another sorcerer to abandon his evil ways and run away with a woman. Conan himself gets screwed over by his bandit confederates, and exiled by his love interest. 

_I suspect that Howard had a fundamentally Nordic belief, that the world is inevitably screwed and all we can do is face fate as best we can._

That's pretty much what I see, and I see that same theme permeating Warhammer. Warhammer is essentially a world in the midst of Ragnorak.


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## ValhallaGH (Nov 30, 2008)

pawsplay said:


> Warhammer is essentially a world in the midst of Ragnorak.




That is a point I will not dispute.


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## arcanaman (Nov 30, 2008)

In fantasy and 40,000 can a person play as a memeber of chaos?


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## Aus_Snow (Nov 30, 2008)

arcanaman said:


> In fantasy and 40,000 can a person play as a memeber of chaos?



Yes. In WFRP 1e, anyway. I don't know about 2e, at least not for certain.

Elves can only be Lawful or Good, IIRC. Halflings, only Neutral. Hm, and Humans and Dwarves, any. I think. But these options were only for more experienced players, according to the book. You had to go with the most common alignment only, if you were a newbie player. Something like that.

I'll just add another voice to the 'Warhammer is awesome' chorus. The setting is full of fun and flavour, and some of the old adventures kicked ass.


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## arcanaman (Nov 30, 2008)

which inversely leads me to my next question are there alignments in warhammer?


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## Aus_Snow (Nov 30, 2008)

Heh. Not sure. . .

They are these: Lawful, Good, Neutral, Evil, Chaotic.

Y'know, like 4e's should've been. . .  Hehe, couldn't help it. Sorry 'bout that.


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## the Jester (Nov 30, 2008)

Warhammer kicks so much ass, that ass's ass is itself pre-kicked before it's even born.

Warhammer is cool because it has more gruesome kickass art than other rpgs. If all the art from all the rpgs got together and had a big fight, the art from Warhammer would win because it has big robots and monsters the size of entire buildings or cities in it, and they would crush the art from other games under their treads. Warhammer art conveys the feel of an entire world whose ass has been kicked. It has things that will sex you up while they tear open your body and soul. IN THE ART.

Warhammer is best for roleplayers who understand that you often better run away, and if you're lucky you'll just mutate and go insane while losing a couple of limbs. It might not sound like fun, but if you're playing Warhammer, it's all about the sheer magnitude of things. Chaos is fated to win; you're fighting a hopeless struggle; well stop whining and KICK SOME ASS. Even if just by running away!

Warhammer is cool because whenever you think you've managed to save an innocent, prevent horrors, root out an evil cult or whatever, you've actually set off a chain of events that results in your being blamed for the murder of the local high-ups, an invasion of beastmen, the collapse of the local economy and the loosing of a plague in a metropolis. Meanwhile, the innocent that you rescued gives birth to some kind of demonic spaceship that shoots pure pain from its giant cannons and launches a salvo of attacks that kills your descendants for the next ten generations.

Oh, and Warhammer is cool because it has the most skulls of all.


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## arcanaman (Nov 30, 2008)

Aus Snow lol
The jester: I want it even more now 
Since I've never played warhammer before how does a game in warhammer usually begin and what are some the differences of character creation between dnd  and warhammer? this includes people who create overpowered characters


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## the Jester (Nov 30, 2008)

arcanaman said:


> Since I've never played warhammer before how does a game in warhammer usually begin and what are some the differences of character creation between dnd  and warhammer? this includes people who create overpowered characters




By the book, Warhammer character creation consists of two choices: race and sex. Everything else- EVERYTHING- is randomly rolled: your career, your stats, even your name.

Takes about ten minutes. 

I can't recommend Warhammer Fantasy highly enough.


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## frankthedm (Nov 30, 2008)

arcanaman said:


> In fantasy and 40,000 can a person play as a memeber of chaos?



Anyone can mutatle and/or take the cause of chaos. Your own party members may kill you, but you can do it. In WFRP 2E the Rules for chaos campaign play are in the Tome of Corruption. The rules W40KRP are very much geared *just* for playing Chuch ][nquisitors for right now. 







arcanaman said:


> which inversely leads me to my next question are there alignments in warhammer?



1E had alignments "Lawful-Good-Neutral-Evil-Chaotic". These were on a single axis/line *much* like 4e alignments, almost like 4E stole them but made a better job of explaining them.  In 2E Alignments were discarded. Now In D&D I like alignment, but I completely agree it has little place in Warhammer.


arcanaman said:


> Since I've never played warhammer before how does a game in warhammer usually begin and what are some the differences of character creation between dnd  and warhammer?



Roll your stats [most are 2D10+20], roll what career you start in [roll twice, pick one]. Some are more glamorous than others, some start you off in possession of valuable equipment, but 2E has very few 'worthless' careers in comparison to WFRP1E. Some focus more on skills others focus mor on stats. [sblock=basic carreers]
Agitator
Apprentice Wizard
Bailiff
Barber-Surgeon
Boatman
Bodyguard
Bone Picker
Bounty Hunter
Burgher
Camp Follower
Charcoal-Burner
Coachman
Entertainer
Envoy
Estalian Diestro
Ferryman
Fieldwarden
Fisherman
Grave Robber
Hedge Wizard
Hunter
Initiate
Jailer
Kislevite Kossar
Kithband Warrior
Marine
Mercenary
Messenger
Militiaman
Miner
Noble
Norse Berserker
Outlaw
Outrider
Peasant
Pit Fighter
Protagonist
Rat Catcher
Roadwarden
Rogue
Runebearer
Scribe
Seaman
Servant
Shieldbreaker
Smuggler
Soldier
Squire
Student
Thief
Thug
Toll Keeper
Tomb Robber
Tradesman
Troll Slayer
Vagabond
Valet
Watchman
Woodsman
Zealot [/sblock] 







arcanaman said:


> this includes people who create overpowered characters



The system is less concerned with precision character balance than 3E or 4E but remember Starting careers are randomly determined unless the GM says otherwise & and so are the 'perks' of playing a human or halfling. Powergaming can be done with a dwarf, but this means sacrficing speed, agility and likability. And this is a game where living or dying can hinge on how well liked you are. Also characters who seek out combat will often be on the receiving end of the games open ended damage rolls.


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## arcanaman (Nov 30, 2008)

Does race add any benfits like in dnd are some races geared for certain careers and not others?


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## frankthedm (Nov 30, 2008)

XP in WFRP is really cool too. rather than huge plateaus of levels, you progress through careers buying individual boosts and bonuses with your XP. in 2e Each '+1' , '+5%', 'skill' or 'talent' costs 100XP. _100 xp_ is also the typical XP award per sesion, so each game the players can improve something. Do note, the career you are in sets caps of how high you can buy a skill or attribute up. You also have to buy pretty much everything the carreer has before you can leave it. [entering a new carrer costs 100XP in and of itself, you also must have the 'trappings' of the class to get in]. _If the GM allows_ player can enter another carreer before completeing the first, but it costs an extra 100xp.

Also XP is NOT tied to 'what you defeated/killed' unless the DM wants it to be. Monsters don't even have XP values listed in the core book. WFRP embraces a few different ways to award XP. I am a real fan of the 'Abstract method. 

100 XP per four hours of play is the abstract method of XP for an average game. It is supposed to be flexible too. A shorter 3 hour session of _intense, no distractions_ play would also be worth that 100 XP. 6 hours of playing while also wasting time trashtalking, looking up rules, snacking & out of game bantering also would be worth the 100 XP. 

 I think the abstract method is great. It helps get away from the "PCs are supposed to succeed" bullcrap. 							'


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## pawsplay (Nov 30, 2008)

In 2e, neither halflings nor dwarves can be wizards. Halflings have innate chaos resistance which makes them unable to cast spells in that fashion. Dwarves have their own rune magic. Elves have a similar, but parallel, and probably more advanced, tradition of wizardry compared to humans. Some careers you can only start as if you are a member of a race; for instance, only dwarves produce tunnel fighters, although members of other races can take up the career later on. 

Instead of classes, Warhammer have "careers," basically packages of skills and possible ability increases. As you finish each one, you can take an exit (for instance, from student to scholar) or move to a related career (student to wizard's apprentice), or even take on an entirely new career. Advanced careers require you to complete a basic career first; for instance, you can't become a racketeer without experience in some other larcenous profession. 

A typical campaign goes like this. The players roll up characters and you end up with a halfling baker, a human rat-catcher, and a dwarven soldier. They meet in a rat-infested tavern and see a poster advertising a reward for the capture of an infamous bandit. Gathering up a handful of used weapons, some bedrolls, and the services of an untrustworthy wilderness guide, they go in search of the bandit. After a battle in which they slay several bandit guards, during which the dwarven soldier loses his foot, permanently, they corner the bandit. He turns out to be a demonic cultist and immobilizes the halfling with a spell. Then the rat-catcher hits the cultist in the stomach with an axe-handle, and then beats the helpless cultist to death. They search for treasure. Finding what appears to be a magical amulet and a glowing sword, they bury them under a rock and vow never to speak of them again. They find some pocket change in the cultist's pocket, sever his head, and return to town to collect the reward. The local magistrate rewards them. On the way back to the tavern, a fanatical witch hunter who was also trailing the bandit corners the halfling and tries to extort the reward from him. Later, they set a trap for the witch hunter and kill him. Then they find out he is an initiate of a local religious order and have to flee the town or risk arrest and execution. On the way out of town, bandits surround them. The dwarf mutters, "Do you know who we are?" The bandits don't, and attack. The one-legged dwarf dies. The baker and the rat-catcher use that opportunity to flee and hide. 

The baker and rat-catcher earn enough XP for one advance. When they complete their careers, the baker thinks he might like to be an outlaw, while the rat-catcher starts looking at good ways to enter the witch hunter career.


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## Tal Rasha (Nov 30, 2008)

While I agree that Warhammer is an awesome setting and that the OP should definitely give it a try, I'd like to say that one of the things I like about some D&D settings (Forgotten Realms for example) is that there exists the opportunity for the players to take a breath every now and then. In FR it's "OK, you've been fighting the BBEG for 2 years now, you've beaten him, there's probably not gonna be anybody threatening the entire continent for the next 6 months, go and spend your gold on wenches and Cormyr wine and stuff"; in Warhammer 40.000 it's "What? You've just killed 10 million orks? Well the Chaos cultists are about to release an ancient demon and there's 30 million more orks just off the shore and we only have 3 years to prepare before a new Tyranid invasion hits us".

So, I like the setting a lot but its sheer massive scale and grim outlook can wear on you.


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## arcanaman (Dec 1, 2008)

Frankthedm: happen to like th sound of that 
Pawsplay: long winded isn't it and my my next question was to be about multiclassing so two birds with one stone 
Tal Rasha: I am huge fan of Faeruin but can no longer follow the plot line because I don't know whats going on anymore

How does the magic system work compared to dnd?


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## Ydars (Dec 2, 2008)

All magic in Warhammer is linked to Chaos. Bascially, spell casting is like handling radioactivity (pulp version) i.e. you end up mutated, mad or irredeemably evil (or all three) if you cast enough spells.

1e magic was awful because it was so limited and clunky and was based on "battle magic" that was really fit only for war-gaming.

2e magic is much better but i haven't had time to actually play this game yet. Mechanically, it looks much sounder and more flavourful.


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## Donovan Morningfire (Dec 2, 2008)

Tal Rasha said:


> So, I like the setting a lot but its sheer massive scale and grim outlook can wear on you.



Well, part of that is on the GM.  While the WHFP setting may indeed be a crapsack world, it's up to the GM as to when the party catches a break and gets a bit of "downtime" in between their adventures.

Same holds true in any game; if the GM is out to screw over the players, they're screwed regardless of the setting or system.  I'm not saying every WHFP adventure has to end on a happy note (crapsack world, 'member?), but it doesn't have to be a never-ending cycle of gloom'n'doom either.  Like you said, too much grimdark can really wear on the players.  Keep hitting the PCs with a stick, and they'll eventually decide to look for carrots someplace else (unless they are total masochists).

Of course, this is coming from the guy that played a chivalrously heroic Bretonnian Knight-Errant running about in the Empire, so take the above for what you will   (btw, I actually managed to survive with no lasting scars, either physical or mental, and not for the GM's lack of effort.)


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## Ydars (Dec 2, 2008)

Actually warhammer has a long tradition of dark humour and you have to use it to offset the bleakness or else chaos will begin to creep into your soul........................

Having said that, the grimness of the setting perfectly lends itself to certain kinds of game; games where food is scarce, the people are ignorant and belligerent and death is truly random. I would love to run a Vampire centred campaign where the PCs are trying to stamp out undead as it is virtually perfect for that It is sort of like Ravenloft but with a random/dark element not really captured anywhere in D&D.

Just don't try and play "heroes" as WFRP is not about heroes, it is about not compromising so much to survive that you can't tell the difference between your character and the monsters by the end.


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## Galloglaich (Dec 2, 2008)

I've been convinced enough to buy a copy of the rulebook on Amazon right now, it sounds a lot like the kind of game I like.  I'm looking forward to checking it out.

G.


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## Nebulous (Dec 2, 2008)

I've bought all of the 2nd edition WFRP stuff save for the latest priest book.  I have spend HUNDREDS of dollars on these full color hardbacks yet i have never played a single game of Warhammer.  Although i did make a character.

But i've read them all and i feel qualified enough to offer a little input here.  In a word, it looks Awesome.  Like, i can't wait to play this game awesome.  Magic feels like real magic again, something dangerous and alive and tempermental that has an equally good chance of biting your head off as it does to help you.

The career advancement scheme is simple and ingenious.  You're given XP every session to upgrade your character, so you're always having to make choices.  Combat is brutal, and a critical hit to the arm can just as easily numb it for a round or chop it off in a geyser of blood, killing you instantly. 

I'm running 4e right now but i really want to convince my group to have a go with Warhammer.  I've also run a lot of Cthulhu so maybe that's why it also appeals to me.


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## Nebulous (Dec 2, 2008)

On a related note, what is the best Warhammer adventure in print, even if it's from the old system?  And is the old system easily upgradable to the new one?

And what do you fans of WFRP not like about the game?   There's got to be something.


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## Thanee (Dec 2, 2008)

This is actually giving a pretty good impression of Warhammer and some of the weird stuff around.

Warhammer: Age of Ragnarok


Best adventure would be The Enemy Within campaign, I guess.

Bye
Thanee


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## pawsplay (Dec 2, 2008)

Things not to like? Um... 

The monsters are somewhat spread out among books?


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## Aus_Snow (Dec 3, 2008)

pawsplay said:


> Things not to like? Um...
> 
> The monsters are somewhat spread out among books?



?

So the Bestiary doesn't do its job? Note: serious question - I'm not familiar with the 2e books, just some of 1e.


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## scourger (Dec 3, 2008)

Nebulous said:


> On a related note, what is the best Warhammer adventure in print, even if it's from the old system?  And is the old system easily upgradable to the new one?
> 
> And what do you fans of WFRP not like about the game?   There's got to be something.




I really like the adventure *Karak Azgal* for WFRP.  I liked it so much that I got the game afterward so that I could run it.  It's on sale now at Green Ronin's sale, so it is worth picking up cheap right now.  We had fun with it for a while.  I modified the game to make the heroes more powerful by making most of the foes immediately subject to critical hits.  What I like least about the game is that it is too dark & grim (40KRP is even more gothic).  So, I kept Karak Azgal after getting rid of the other few books I picked up for WFRP (I'll probably get rid of all the 40KRP stuff).


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## pawsplay (Dec 3, 2008)

Aus_Snow said:


> ?
> 
> So the Bestiary doesn't do its job? Note: serious question - I'm not familiar with the 2e books, just some of 1e.




The Bestiary is awesome. It's just that you are, in theory, missing out on some of the crazy awesome monsters in the Chaos sourcebook. I think there's a couple of critters squeezed into the companion volume, too.


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## Nebulous (Dec 3, 2008)

Thanee said:


> This is actually giving a pretty good impression of Warhammer and some of the weird stuff around.
> 
> Warhammer: Age of Ragnarok
> 
> ...




WHOA.  That trailer is amazing. 

As for the rpg, does the game lend itself well to full miniatures combat?  I guess i mean does it require scags of minis or can you wing it easily without (i prefer minis and big battleboards personally). And is combat itself tactically interesting?  It seems like everyone has a ton of options every round, rather than relegating special maneuvers to the careers (which are essentially skill and talent packages).


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## Nebulous (Dec 3, 2008)

scourger said:


> I really like the adventure *Karak Azgal* for WFRP.  I liked it so much that I got the game afterward so that I could run it.  It's on sale now at Green Ronin's sale, so it is worth picking up cheap right now.




I found this fairly cheap on Amazon and picked it up.  Looks like a warhammer dungeon delve in an old dwarf hold.  Sweet.

I also grabbed Tome of Salvation because it looked great.


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## CodexofRome (Dec 3, 2008)

If you're coming to Warhammer from D&D, the change in paradigm and attitude can be very difficult.  

In D&D, you're the hero and are loaded down with magic items and gold practically the moment you're born.  You're built to kick ass and take names.  You're tough and durable and powerful even at lower levels.  Things are shiny, polished and expensive.  D&D has no real setting, and serves itself.

In Warhammer, the system serves the setting.  You're just some dude off the streets, with little chance of surviving, let alone beating someone in a fight.  The world is filled with terrible things, most of which you know nothing about at first.  Things are grim, gritty and cheap.  Especially life.

---------------

I will admit freely that I didn't much enjoy playing Warhammer the first time I tried it, which was fairly recently.  I was in the midst of running my own 4th ed campaign, and have spent most of my fantasy RP time with D&D.  Now, having read through some of the Gotrek and Felix sagas, I'm itching to get back to playing my Dwarven Shieldbreaker.


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## Nebulous (Dec 3, 2008)

Where would one get a good map of the Old World?  A big map, the kind of poster map you would hang on the wall?


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## Obryn (Dec 3, 2008)

Nebulous said:


> WHOA.  That trailer is amazing.
> 
> As for the rpg, does the game lend itself well to full miniatures combat?  I guess i mean does it require scags of minis or can you wing it easily without (i prefer minis and big battleboards personally). And is combat itself tactically interesting?  It seems like everyone has a ton of options every round, rather than relegating special maneuvers to the careers (which are essentially skill and talent packages).



It's quite literally as minis-intensive as you want it to be.  I varied my minis use from combat to combat, depending on the number of foes and the environment.

If you can get your players to use all the various options, there's plenty of choices to be made.  Most often, though, you can expect your players to Aim + Attack, Parry + Attack, or Charge.  You'll want to use All-Out Attack for monsters a lot, since (1) it shortens combats that can tend to grind out for a long time; and (2) when you inevitably forget to Parry, you at least got some benefit from it.

I love WFRP2.  Love it, love it, love it.  My players do, too, and we'll be dipping our toes back into it after running 4e a while longer.  It's a different kind of game, though, so your players may get their characters killed very quickly.

As a note, combat for beginning characters can drag if you're not careful.  Remember that PCs generally have a 30%-40% chance to hit.  Once they hit, they could still get parried.  Even if they don't get parried, there's a good chance their damage won't get through the enemy's Armor + TB.  So yeah, combat can get lengthy at low levels, with a whole lot of nothing happening in long stretches.

As solutions to this, I reduced Armor to Leather = 1, Chain = 2, Plate = 3.  I also tended to have my less-intelligent creatures All-Out Attack.  It helped a lot!

-O


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## Rel (Dec 3, 2008)

I'm a HUGE fan of WFRP.  We played two campaigns worth of it back in 2006-2007 and had a blast.

In the first we did Karak Azgal and that was a lot of fun.  Also, the GM was a Warhammer Fantasy Battles player with several armies and we had a few segments of the campaign where we were involved in large scale battles.  That worked out really well and was a lot of fun.

In the second campaign (which I ran), I lightened the mood just a tad by running a "Pirates of the Caribbean - Warhammer Style!" (undead pirates, lurking lizardfolk natives, Skull Islands inhabited by Giant Spiders and King Kong and a few dinosaurs thrown in for good measure!) game that had the PC's start off press ganged onto a privateer and later gain command of their own ship.  I cobbled together some "ship to ship" fighting rules that were a workable synergy of aerial battle rules I'd used in my Sky Galleons of Mars games and the WFB rules.  And we used Pirates of the Spanish Main ships for the battles.  That was cool and added another element to the game.  The capricious and deadly nature of WFRP combat modeled the dangers of wooden fighting ships with cannon rather well.

Good times.

In terms of things not to like about WFRP, one thing that bothered my sensibilities a bit was the frequent imbalance inherent in the random determination of starting career.  I don't mind the randomness itself but if you start as a Peasant and somebody else is a Noble then you just plain suck compared to them.  And, given the likely career paths open to you, you're never going to catch up either.  That's a bit too much disparity for me to be happy with for an entire campaign.

Our solution was to build a "new and unimproved" list of all the crappy careers and THOSE were the ones you could start as.  No Nobles or Soldiers for us.  It was all Rat Catchers, Vagabonds and Peasants for us.   The underscoring of the "rags" part of "rags to riches" made the riches all the sweeter.

And when I say "riches" I mean a decent set of clothing, food that isn't rotting already and a weapon that probably won't break the next time you swing it.


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## the Jester (Dec 3, 2008)

Rel said:


> And when I say "riches" I mean a decent set of clothing, food that isn't rotting already and a weapon that probably won't break the next time you swing it.





Yeah- in the WH campaign we played (currently on indefinite hiatus, since the gm has had two babies- hi omrob!) my pc was almost done with his second career, and I have never seen a magic item. I don't know where his character sheet was, but if I recall correctly, I have no money at present, though I do have a job guarding a boat (started as a seaman, now a marine). No special gear, although I do have some chain mail and leather armor. 

And a gaffe hook. And a shortbow that I took from a bandit we killed, who later turned out to have been more or less a Robin Hood figure.


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## Rel (Dec 3, 2008)

the Jester said:


> Yeah- in the WH campaign we played (currently on indefinite hiatus, since the gm has had two babies- hi omrob!) my pc was almost done with his second career, and I have never seen a magic item. I don't know where his character sheet was, but if I recall correctly, I have no money at present, though I do have a job guarding a boat (started as a seaman, now a marine). No special gear, although I do have some chain mail and leather armor.
> 
> And a gaffe hook. And a shortbow that I took from a bandit we killed, who later turned out to have been more or less a Robin Hood figure.




A gaffe hook?!  AND a shortbow?!

What kind of Monty Haul campaign is this!?


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## Nebulous (Dec 3, 2008)

Rel said:


> A gaffe hook?!  AND a shortbow?!
> 
> What kind of Monty Haul campaign is this!?






So, tell me about this lack of magic items and goody loot.  Would our regular D&D players find this too drastic a change, not accumlating anything of value?  In some ways the campaign setting reminds me a lot of Midnight, where just surviving to the next dawn is reward enough. 

I would probably have to squeeze in a magic item or two, something appropriate to the setting.  Like a devil-possessed amulet that gives you an extra wound, but has the unfortunate habit of screaming your position to enemies at inoportune times.  In fact, cursed items seem to fit perfectly in Warhammer!


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## Rel (Dec 3, 2008)

Nebulous said:


> So, tell me about this lack of magic items and goody loot.  Would our regular D&D players find this too drastic a change, not accumlating anything of value?  In some ways the campaign setting reminds me a lot of Midnight, where just surviving to the next dawn is reward enough.
> 
> I would probably have to squeeze in a magic item or two, something appropriate to the setting.  Like a devil-possessed amulet that gives you an extra wound, but has the unfortunate habit of screaming your position to enemies at inoportune times.  In fact, cursed items seem to fit perfectly in Warhammer!




Cursed items do indeed fit right into WFRP.

I think that magic items in WFRP are better suited to being plot devices than "giving bonuses".  Again with a nod to me adapting it for Pirates of the Caribbean, Jack Sparrow's compass that points to whatever his heart truly desires is the sort of magic item I tended to put into my games.

Another example from my campaign is that I had an NPC who was a 9 year old boy who first saw almost his whole family killed in front of him and later was captured by Beastmen to use in a ritual (he was rescued before the end of it by the PC's).  One result of this was that part of his soul was put into a little "voodoo doll".  It later kept him from dying.

This kind of stuff makes magic items more mysterious and sinister than everybody have a +2 longsword.  I'm not knocking +2 longswords:  I'm getting ready to kick off a 4e game.  I'm just saying that this different flavor feels right for WFRP to me.


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## Nebulous (Dec 3, 2008)

Rel said:


> This kind of stuff makes magic items more mysterious and sinister than everybody have a +2 longsword.  I'm not knocking +2 longswords:  I'm getting ready to kick off a 4e game.  I'm just saying that this different flavor feels right for WFRP to me.




Oh, i'm enjoying 4e quite a bit too.  I'll probably get tired of it eventually, and hopefully around that time i'll be able to kickstart a Warhammer campaign.  Finding players and time can sometimes be difficult, especially if we're not all one the same page.

"Trust me, it's fun when your character goes crazy and is devoured by a ratman tribe!  Really!" 

And for what it's worth, i do find +2 swords in D&D pretty boring.  Highly useful and desired, but boring.  I actually just finished putting together a new Bag of Tricks for our campaign.  Hopefully it will inject some of that old skool feel for magic again.  It's not a Daily-based magic item.


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## Iron Sky (Dec 5, 2008)

We played a brief Dark Heresy 40k game before 4e came out.  In a few demi-phrases: it's gritty; psykers can be _amazingly_ cool and you _hate_ to have them in your party; player characters will die.

One player was used to D20-style combat, so stood out in the open, blasting away with his lasgun.  Since the rest of us were in cover, the enemies all turned on him and - in spite of their crappy skill and shoddy weapons - nearly dropped him.  He hobbled over to hide behind a tent and a maniac with a meat cleaver took his leg off.  The rest of the players said, "well, that was dumb" and fought for our lives as he bled out in the mud.

Our psyker chick had unnatural degree of bad luck.  Every combat she used a power, she manifested something bad.  One player - with the great randomly-generated name Verbal Sham - was on the verge of blowing her brains out since he'd taken the short end of the mis-channeled Warp energy stick and was about to start mutating (instant death sentence in 40k).

Before he could do that though, she was dropped and unconcious when my character missed with a molotov cocktail.  A couple random deviation rolls and instead of throwing it 5m in front of him, he threw it 4m to his right, _exactly_ on top of the unconcious psyker.  She was not mourned.

Verbal Sham, our Scum(yes, that's one of the classes) got his face chopped off with one of said cleavers too - which was unfortunate since he wasthe _parties'_ face.  He just wasn't the same with an artificial jaw/voice box.

I think playing my assassin in that game was the first time in a roleplaying game that I really regretted being so combat specialized.  I was litterally almost useless at anything but scouting and fighting: in social skills I had the equivalent of a -9 in a D20 system, 5% chance to succeed at even the most basic task.

I was actually almost envious as our Adept and Scum did their investigations, rooting out cultists, searching forbidden lore on the demon we thought we might be up against, shmoozing it with the spacedock workers.  I really like how players have these sorts of specializations, really makes you _need_ the other players to get the job done.

I'd highly recommend Dark Heresy.  Solid rule system, great art, grim'n'gritty setting, the ability to be a kick-ass hero and still be terrified of the things you might face.

Never played Fantasy.  Might check it out once we've got our 4e games wrapped up...


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## Nebulous (Dec 5, 2008)

Iron Sky said:


> I'd highly recommend Dark Heresy.  Solid rule system, great art, grim'n'gritty setting, the ability to be a kick-ass hero and still be terrified of the things you might face.
> 
> Never played Fantasy.  Might check it out once we've got our 4e games wrapped up...




Yes, i'd like to see a straight up comparison between Fantasy and Dark Heresy.  Your example sounded like fun.  Bleak, gory, debiliating, insanity- inducing fun.


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## JackSmithIV (Dec 5, 2008)

I'm not sure if Fantasy Flight still carries it (it was a Green Ronin adventure path), but if it's still around, get the _Paths of the Damned_ adventure path. It's probably hard to find, but it's one of the original adventure paths published for the game, and is in my opinion *the best* introduction to the Warhammer Fantasy world. 

It takes you from the Middenheim area, to the capital city of the Empire, to the gunpowerder city of Nuln, and covers a range of enemies. You fight Beastmen, Skaven, Undead, Heretics, everyone. There's multiple subplots, excellent roleplaying opportunities (half of the second module is playing power-broker to a diverse cast of important citizens of Altdorf), and will show your players the best of what Warhammer Fantasy has to offer. I was a long-time fan of Warhammer Fantasy, so when it came time to run my group through a campaign, I chose this one. It was the only campaign I ran with the group, because by the end, we felt like we'd acheived such a complete experience of the core of the game.

We may try other ventures later, such as exploring other parts of the world like Bretonia, or my favorite Warhammer locations, Khemri.

I love WFRP. It's not my game of choice, because to my group it's a one-trick pony for us. By the end of our WFRP campaign, the players kind of got tired of being constantly kicked in the face by the whole game world and decided to go back to D&D because they wanted to be heroes again. Don't get me wrong though, the whole desperation of the game is why we loved it so much. It just gets to be tiring after a while. We also love World of Darkness, because it gets to that same kind of WFRP dark grittiness.


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## doppelganger (Dec 5, 2008)

JackSmithIV said:


> I'm not sure if Fantasy Flight still carries it (it was a Green Ronin adventure path), but if it's still around, get the _Paths of the Damned_ adventure path. It's probably hard to find, but it's one of the original adventure paths published for the game, and is in my opinion *the best* introduction to the Warhammer Fantasy world.



If you only get the first adventure of the trilogy, do be aware that the other two are better. The first one has a lot of "if the party goes left, they get to their destination, but if the party goes right, they are all killed in a wagon accident' situations. This may be considered 'true to setting' by some people, but it is also a quick ticket to a TPK (which is also true to setting, in a good way, now that I think about it!).


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## Obryn (Dec 5, 2008)

doppelganger said:


> If you only get the first adventure of the trilogy, do be aware that the other two are better. The first one has a lot of "if the party goes left, they get to their destination, but if the party goes right, they are all killed in a wagon accident' situations. This may be considered 'true to setting' by some people, but it is also a quick ticket to a TPK (which is also true to setting, in a good way, now that I think about it!).



I think the main difference is that the first one is a giant, often poorly-written, railroad, while the later ones are much more free-form. 

Ashes of Middenheim commits several major sins, IMHO.  Right at the outset it puts plot-essential information on the far side of some die rolls, and from there it makes a lot of assumptions about what the PCs will do.  It also has some balance issues, since you're stuck in a very tough fight right at the end that I don't think any group of PCs could handle without divine intervention.  WFRP2 should be tough - don't get me wrong - but it's silly.  (Take away the Knights' helmets, by the way.  They shouldn't have them anyway.)  The Middenheim sourcebook attached to it rocks, though.

Spires of Altdorf, OTOH, is extremely free-form with some events to throw in when appropriate and a wide net of social interactions.  It's heavy on investigation, with a lot of very Warhammer-esque surprises.

I have not delved into Forges of Nuln, but I understand it's much more similar to Altdorf.

-O


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## Nebulous (Dec 5, 2008)

Tell me more about this Paths of the Damned.  How many books are in it?  And what kind of time span are we talking about?  Assume an average 4 hour session, how many months of play?


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## Obryn (Dec 6, 2008)

Nebulous said:


> Tell me more about this Paths of the Damned.  How many books are in it?  And what kind of time span are we talking about?  Assume an average 4 hour session, how many months of play?



3 books, but they're often somewhat hard to find and/or expensive.  I don't know if there are any PDFs of them available, either.

They are:
Ashes of Middenheim
Spires of Altdorf
Forges of Nuln

All 3 are fairly short, and you might wonder why the heck they're hardcover.  I know I did!   They have a sourcebook for their respective city in the first half, and the module in the second half...  It's a good way to do things, since you can get a great feel for the adventure setting and throw in things like clawed daemons hanging from Middenheim, and troops of dwarves working to repair the eastern causeway.

I really couldn't pinpoint how long each one would take...  It's very much dependent on your players.  We got the prelude from the core book and Ashes of Middenheim done over the course of maybe 12 sessions - but we screw around a lot and have short sessions, so YMMV.  (The deadliest character, by the way, was the freaking halfling fieldwarden.  Slings are insane in WFRP2.

Eyeballing Spires of Altdorf, it could be a very short or very long adventure, depending on how perceptive your players are, how much you want to drag it out, and how you pace the events.

I have quite literally never opened my copy of Forges of Nuln.

-O


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## arcanaman (Dec 6, 2008)

Which brings me to my next question whar are the quality of the Warhammer novels?


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## Punnuendo (Dec 6, 2008)

arcanaman said:


> Which brings me to my next question whar are the quality of the Warhammer novels?





They vary a good bit. But that's going to happen when you have that many people writing. I will say I think they are on average the best shared world novels I've read by far. I'd heartily recommend the Gotrek and Felix Omnibus editions, the Vampire Genevieve Omnibus, and the Blackhearts Omnibus as good cost effective ways to check out some of the novels.


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## Morpheus (Dec 6, 2008)

arcanaman said:


> Which brings me to my next question whar are the quality of the Warhammer novels?




Check out C.L. Werner's trilogy (Witch  Hunter, Witch Finder, Witch Killer)...terrific...


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## Nebulous (Dec 7, 2008)

Reading a few novels is a great idea to get a feel for the setting.  I think i'll definitely do that before running a game.  And i'll probaly try to finds Ashes of Middenheim.  But right now we're having fun with 4e so any drastic fantasy game switch is a ways off.  More time to read up on it!


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## arcanaman (Dec 7, 2008)

Do people like Dark Hersey or Olde World better?


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Dec 7, 2008)

CodexofRome said:


> If you're coming to Warhammer from D&D, the change in paradigm and attitude can be very difficult.



Hehe, switching games can be very difficult.

Before I joined my current group, some of the other players played a lot of Torg. When I joined, they had (recently) moved on to D&D 3E. But still, a few times we tried Torg. And the first times were _really_ bad.

You might say D&D heroes are... well, heroes, awesome, kicking ass and taking names. But still, Torg seems to put it up a notch. Or not. You're not really more powerful in terms of reality-bending magic, but there's...a  difference in how you manage your resources and use them correctly. If you spend a possibility point, don't just shoot one guy - target all frigging 20 shock troopers and take them down. You really have to get into a different mindset. 

But these different mindsets can make switching game systems around very rewarding. But you have to learn them first.


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## Nebulous (Dec 12, 2008)

So....I was browsing the Fantasy Flight store and saw that there are lots of adventures to pick from.

Can anyone recommend from some of the new crop?  There's this epic campaign, _The Thousand Thrones_, which looks like it might be a full color hardback. I can't decide really if i would run a pregen adventure or just make one up.


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## Donovan Morningfire (Dec 12, 2008)

It's a shame that the Black Industries webpage is no longer up, as they had a plethora of free fan-made adventures that you could download.  I've never run the game, but glanced at a couple modules and they generally look to be well-written and fit with the overall mood of the setting.

Maybe somebody has them archived somewhere?

Edit: Actually, decided to use a bit of Net-Fu, which looks to have actually worked.

http://web.archive.org/web/20080211215004/www.blackindustries.com/?template=WH&content=scenarios
Web archive of Black Industries' page.  Tried a couple links at random and they seem to work.

So more free adventures than you can shake a snotling at


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## arcanaman (Dec 13, 2008)

as time goes on flight fantasy games will probably get more


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## Teflon Billy (Dec 13, 2008)

arcanaman said:


> Which brings me to my next question whar are the quality of the Warhammer novels?




Some are great (particularly _Nathan Long_'s efforts with the seminal WHFRPG iconics *Gotrek and Felix*, nd _CL.L. Werner_'s *Witch Hunter* novels)) 

Some are abysmal (I tossed them and, unfortunately, don't remember the titles)


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## Donovan Morningfire (Dec 13, 2008)

arcanaman said:


> as time goes on flight fantasy games will probably get more



I'm sure they will.  But considering the sheer volume of stuff that Black Industries had on their site, it's gonna take a while for FFG to catch-up.

By the way, a poster named Sythorn over on the FFG boards nice enough to compile all the BI stuff into a MediaFire download folder (if you don't feel like hunting and picking through the BI archived site like I posted earlier):

Free File Hosting Made Simple - MediaFire


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## Treebore (Dec 13, 2008)

Donovan Morningfire said:


> I'm sure they will.  But considering the sheer volume of stuff that Black Industries had on their site, it's gonna take a while for FFG to catch-up.
> 
> By the way, a poster named Sythorn over on the FFG boards nice enough to compile all the BI stuff into a MediaFire download folder (if you don't feel like hunting and picking through the BI archived site like I posted earlier):
> 
> Free File Hosting Made Simple - MediaFire





Thanks! If you could, let Sythorn know I appreciate what they did as well!


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## Sir Oliver (Dec 14, 2008)

This spring, after two years of DM burnout, I started running my first WFRP game. Never had such fun times as a GM: lots of improvisation in a setting oozing with flavor. 

I like Old World because it's very clearly and firmly inspired by Medieval Europe: Tilea is Renaissance Italy, Bretonnia is inspired by chivalric romances of France and England, Empire is the Holy German Empire... Europan names, customs, legends, politics, superstitions - it's all there in the Old World. As a GM, I love playing with things like that. 

I like Warhammer because all of the effort obviously invested in maintaining a very distinctive flavor: in concept artwork, maps, quotes, even book designs. Merely skimming through WFRP rulesbook gave me ideas for NPCs, enemies or plot hooks. 

I like Warhammer because it's magic is actually mysterious, dangerous and unpredictable.

I like Warhammer because it's, basically, "Blackadder: The RPG". ^_^


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## Sir Oliver (Dec 14, 2008)

arcanaman said:


> Which brings me to my next question whar are the quality of the Warhammer novels?



In general I try to keep away from any RPG-inspried novels: I never enjoyed fantasy novels set in Forgotten Realms. Even so, I was more then delighted by Jack Yeovil's "Vampire Genevieve" series of novels (actually, more like a bunch of short stories). Yeovil (alternate penname of British fantasy writer Kim Newman) doesn't waste his time re-iterating facts about gods and amgic as many D&D novels are prone to do. Instead, he tries to convey the feel of Warhammer and succeeds marvelously. One of his Genevieve stories is a gothic horror inspired by all of the famous gothic novels of our own world. The other clearly draws inspiration from "Phantom of the Opera". Third one describes a mass murderer in Altdorf very much like Jack the Ripper. 

Very entertaining and fun novels to read.


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## Sir Oliver (Dec 14, 2008)

Nebulous said:


> Where would one get a good map of the Old World?  A big map, the kind of poster map you would hang on the wall?



Not really the map of the Old World but you can find some nice maps of individual Old World countries on the new WFRP website on Fantasy Flight Games. It requires registration, but it's supposed to be free.


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## Teflon Billy (Dec 14, 2008)

Sir Oliver said:


> This spring, after two years of DM burnout, I started running my first WFRP game. Never had such fun times as a GM: lots of improvisation in a setting oozing with flavor.




Ditto 



> I like Old World because it's very clearly and firmly inspired by Medieval Europe: Tilea is Renaissance Italy, Bretonnia is inspired by chivalric romances of France and England, Empire is the Holy German Empire... Europan names, customs, legends, politics, superstitions - it's all there in the Old World. As a GM, I love playing with things like that.




Same here 



> I like Warhammer because all of the effort obviously invested in maintaining a very distinctive flavor: in concept artwork, maps, quotes, even book designs. Merely skimming through WFRP rulesbook gave me ideas for NPCs, enemies or plot hooks.




Agreed 100%!



> I like Warhammer because it's magic is actually mysterious, dangerous and unpredictable.




Best part about it. It's like you are speaking my thoguhts...



> I like Warhammer because it's, basically, "Blackadder: The RPG". ^_^




Then, suddenly, this.


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## Angel Tarragon (Dec 15, 2008)

spam reported


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## Sir Oliver (Dec 15, 2008)

Teflon Billy said:


> Then, suddenly, this.



Yeah, yeah, I know. It's supposed to be all grim and gritty.... But on the other hand, in "Enemy Within" campaign there are drunk NPC noblemen vomiting on PCs, a giant cocroach-man playing a harpischord and a dwarven engineer named Isembeard Brunel. 

Compared to that, things that happen in my campaign  - PCs getting drunk and plotting absurdly complex schemes to make themselves rich and famous - are practically serious in tone. Otherwise, I do have a tendency toward moronic, fanatical and/or assinine NPCs, but these kind of people are pretty much a regularity in Warhammer world.


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## Nebulous (Dec 15, 2008)

Donovan Morningfire said:


> I'm sure they will.  But considering the sheer volume of stuff that Black Industries had on their site, it's gonna take a while for FFG to catch-up.
> 
> By the way, a poster named Sythorn over on the FFG boards nice enough to compile all the BI stuff into a MediaFire download folder (if you don't feel like hunting and picking through the BI archived site like I posted earlier):
> 
> Free File Hosting Made Simple - MediaFire




wow.  Thanks.  That's over 200 MB of free stuff!


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## Donovan Morningfire (Dec 15, 2008)

Nebulous said:


> wow.  Thanks.  That's over 200 MB of free stuff!



Hey, always happy to help a fellow gamer.  Besides, just goes to show the level of commitment Black Industries had to their fanbase considering how much of that material was probably fan-created in the first place.


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## TheNovaLord (Dec 17, 2008)

I dislike WHFRP as a system, even more so as a setting

ive played both 1e with the original developers in nottingham way back, and 2nd edition, which as a system sucks slightky less

mostly people burn down inns, touch warpstone they shouldnt and spend times in sewers

it is clunky...but i dislike all games where you roll an active defences as its one dice (or two if you can parry and dodge) too many.

its supposed to be grim and gritty, but is more like other words that rhyme with those.

magic is supposedly mysterious and dangerous, but in play is way overpowered still.


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## jasin (Dec 18, 2008)

In my, still limited, experience: the setting can range from silly grotesquerie to depressing grimness, but there's a lot of room in between for something really engaging.

Character creation is really interesting. Once you let go of the need to create just what you want to be and look at it as fighting to become what you want to be, the random starting career is fun, and the more modest-sounding careers like rat catcher or camp follower measure up surprisingly well to nobles and duelists of the game.

The system is tolerable at best. With about 35% chance of success at things they're good at, and about 15% at things they're not, starting characters are at some sort of bizarro sour spot, where they feel almost comically incompetent unless the DM skew the odds by declaring most difficulties to range from easy to really really easy.


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## arcanaman (Dec 19, 2008)

my players want to do dark hersey instead of oldworld that does not bother since as of yet I own sourcebooks for neither how does dark hersey warhmmmer 40,000k differ from what you told me about oldworld?


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## Nebulous (Dec 19, 2008)

jasin said:


> The system is tolerable at best. With about 35% chance of success at things they're good at, and about 15% at things they're not, starting characters are at some sort of bizarro sour spot, where they feel almost comically incompetent unless the DM skew the odds by declaring most difficulties to range from easy to really really easy.




That's the kind of advice i like to hear.


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## Rel (Dec 19, 2008)

Nebulous said:


> That's the kind of advice i like to hear.




I think that the secret of keeping this from bogging the game down is similar to many other games:  Don't go to the system for every little thing.

What I mean is that there are some things that are clearly within the realm of a character's abilities if they are trained at a certain skill.  If a character is a cook then you don't have them rolling a cooking test for breakfast, lunch and dinner every day.  If they want to cook a "meal fit for a prince!" then you have them roll.  If they want to conceal the taste of a poison intended for this prince, then you have them roll.

I will grant that this isn't so doable with skills used in combat.  However there is where your players need to learn some of the parts of the system that help them out.  Ganging up on a single foe and doing All Out Attacks considerably increases your odds of hitting (and most foes can only parry once).  These are also important lessons to learn as a GM because they can make low powered foes (like Goblins) dangerous even after the characters are in their second or third profession.


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## Obryn (Dec 19, 2008)

Rel said:


> I will grant that this isn't so doable with skills used in combat.  However there is where your players need to learn some of the parts of the system that help them out.  Ganging up on a single foe and doing All Out Attacks considerably increases your odds of hitting (and most foes can only parry once).  These are also important lessons to learn as a GM because they can make low powered foes (like Goblins) dangerous even after the characters are in their second or third profession.



Yep, there are several great ways to increase your chances to hit.

(1) Use the Aim action.  Someone with a shield or offhand weapon should do this most rounds.  This gives you a quick +10% to your attack.

(2) All-Out Attacks.  Yeah, you can't parry or dodge, but if you're swinging a great weapon, odds are you don't care.  +20% to WS is huge.

(3) Gang up on your opponents.  The Combat Modifiers table lists "example" percentages for this.  More or less, any time your side outnumbers the bad guys, you get better chances to hit...  It's great for tactics, and it means you'll want quite a few people who know how to fight in melee.


WFRP2 can absolutely drag in early combats if you don't use these little shortcuts, and if your players don't bother with tactical positioning.  If the enemies have high TB + Armor and know how to parry, it can be a sickeningly long grindfest where you're doing 1-2 points of damage per (rare) hit.  An easy solution is to use weaker enemies without ridiculously high TBs. 

-O


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## Iron Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

The character's relative low chance of succeeding is actually one of the things I liked about Dark Heresy.  It encouraged characters to specialize so everyone had their niche in the party.

Everyone, of course, wants at least a little bit of combat capability (and ARMOR), but between the limited selections of skills and powers (or whatever they call them, don't remember atm) that each career gets and the need for someone really specialized to have a 50% chance of succeeding at something...

Interestingly, I found the specializationg kept the group together in Dark Heresy, while when we played Shadowrun it had the opposite effect.  I guess the difference in Dark Heresy is until late in the game, you pretty much get to be badass at 1 or 2 things - leave someone else to talk if you're the combat guy, leave someone else to fight when you're the lore guy.


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## Sanzuo (Dec 22, 2008)

Iron Sky said:


> The character's relative low chance of succeeding is actually one of the things I liked about Dark Heresy.




At the same time, though, I don't really think they're chances of succeeding are too terribly low.

Take for example the typical D&D attack roll.  You roll your attack vs a target number (AC score) to succeed.  Say you're specialized on attacking in melee and you have a +15 to hit.  In my opinion a balanced encounter in this instance would have opponents with ACs around 26.  So that's a little less than a 50% to "succeed" at your attack roll.  Of course I don't like balanced encounters, I like challenging encounters.  So my preference would be to make the opponent's AC closer to 29 in this instance, meaning you would need to roll a 14 or better on a d20 to hit.

In both Warhammer systems that attack roll is abstracted into a simple percentile chance to hit the opponent.  If you are really good at attacking something you're skill to hit would be around 35-45%.  The opponent usually gets a last ditch attempt to parry or dodge the attack.  (If they're good, also about 35-45%)  Keep in mind that because the game is grittier a hit is more meaningful.  It takes fewer hits to drop an opponent.  Generally about 2 or 3 solid hits will take them down!

I think the blurb in the Dark Heresy book sums up my meaning well.



			
				Dark Heresy Core p.191 said:
			
		

> ...Generally speaking, when two characters are engaged, they are exchanging attacks, Parries, Dodges, Feints and a number of other manoeuvers, all of which are rolled into the Standard Attack.  Therefore, a test against Weapon Skill or Ballistic Skill assumes that the defender is attempting to defend himself to some degree- hence a typical Attack Test is Challenging (+0).  A failed test means that the defender was too difficult to hit effectively, whilst a successful Test means that the attacker was able to strike a telling blow.  Where Dodge and Parry come into play they represent your last line of defence against an attacker, giving you one more chance to avoid a bullet or the swing of a chainsword.




Keep in mind the gamemaster should be adjusting the difficulty of different tests accordingly.  Which is why attacking a surprised opponent is a +30 to your effective skill!  Other tests should be given bonuses and penalties based on their difficulty as well.


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## pawsplay (Dec 23, 2008)

arcanaman said:


> Do people like Dark Hersey or Olde World better?




I prefer Old World. Dark Heresy is almost too metal opera for me, which is saying a lot. WFRP spends some time explaining how ordinary people manage to function, whereas 40K is flamboyantly unconcerned with plausibility. Also, the Old World does a nice job of blending Jabberwocky with Lankhmar, as told by Alan Moore. WFRP has a grim humor to it, Dark Heresy is a little too Nihilism in Spaaaace for me.

Admittedly, the line is thin on both plausability and tone, but that's my preference. But I definitely prefer the High Medieval, rat-on-a-stick aesthetic.


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## frankthedm (Dec 23, 2008)

My problem with 40K was that the elegant carrier system was ditched for locked in Class system that assumed PCs were ][nquisitors. That and the XP system moved away from 100xp per advance.

Most of my group likes fantasy _much_ more than sci fi.  Our Host for example prefers to bring swords to gunfights whenever it is an option in RPG's and videogames as a matter of principal. He has gone so far as to use a paint pellet for a melee kill in real life paintball.


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## Sanzuo (Dec 23, 2008)

I love everything about the 40k setting.  I love the Gothic style, the hostility of space, the scale, the scope and the desperation.  I even don't mind that the game starts you off as acolytes of the Inquisition.  That sets the stage for many adventures and gives the players good reason to go traipsing across the galaxy.  You can even ignore the whole Inquisition thing and just leave the players on their own.

That being said, in some ways I do like a few things about the WFRP rules that seem a bit more streamlined and easier to handle.  It could be that fantasy as a whole is just an easier setting to deal with.  I also like the unique class system in Fantasy and kind of wish there was something similar in 40k.


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## arcanaman (Dec 24, 2008)

Can you give me the basics of careers and races for dark hersey


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## Iron Sky (Dec 25, 2008)

This is all off the top of my head since my roommate has the Dark Heresy book atm:

Races (all varieties of human, based off of where they are born):
Voidborn - Born on spacecraft.  Fragile, make good psychers/smart characters
Feral - Born on primative and/or dangerous worlds.  Tough, unsocial, make great physical characters, awful technical/social.
Imperial - Born on generic worlds.  Ok all around, like humans in Fantasy
Hive Worlder - Born on a Hive World(think Alderaan from Star Wars, all city).  Good social, physically weaker.

I don't know if I remember all the classes, but I can give it a stab:

Adept - The loremasters of the group. Most access to forbidden and scholarly lore of any class. Can become slightly psychic
Assassin - Good at combat and sneaky type of things, pretty much as the name suggests.
Arbitrator - Decent all-around characters. Good at melee.
Cleric - Decent all-around characters. Get loads of cash.
Guardsman - The heavy-weapons, heavy-hitters. Very combat specialized.
Psyker - The main psychic class. Amazingly powerful, but your party might hate them (channelling the Warp isn't just hazerdous for _them_, in our group our scum to the brunt of every mis-channelled psychic power and was about to blow our psyker's brain out).
Scum - Jack-of-all trades, make good social "face" characters. Make horrible money(rediculously bad, especially at higher levels).
Tech Priest - The best technical class, as would be expected since they're all cyborgs themselves.

There might be one or two I'm missing, but I think that's most of them.


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## arcanaman (Dec 25, 2008)

The only two races beside imperial I had heard of were the eldars and the orks  I know they're are sci fi counterparts  of elves and orcs how are they different


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## the Jester (Dec 25, 2008)

Actually, on a related note, are the eldar of 40K the same as the elves of Fantasy? They seem analogous, and I have always been under the impression that 40K was the future of the Fantasy universe...


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## Derren (Dec 25, 2008)

arcanaman said:


> Can you give me the basics of careers and races for dark hersey




Considering that everything which is not a human would get shot on sight  the list of races is a bit limited.

You can only play normal humans.

I wrote a long text about the different races in WH40K, but ENworld ate that edit, so you have to look for it yourself.
This might help: http://www.lexicanum.com/


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## Iron Sky (Dec 25, 2008)

the Jester said:


> Actually, on a related note, are the eldar of 40K the same as the elves of Fantasy? They seem analogous, and I have always been under the impression that 40K was the future of the Fantasy universe...




Eldar are kind of "space elves," yes. I think the 40K universe is the future of our world though, not the WH Fantasy one.


There's actually alot of different races in the Warhammer universe. However, the Imperium is (mostly justifiably) xenophobic, killing any and all non-humans (and mutant humans) on sight.

Other races that exist:
Eldar - An ancient and dwindling race with a long, sad past. They pretty much have no hope at all and are dying out.

Dark Eldar - A sect of the Eldar. I don't know much about them, but I think they worship the Demon God Slaanesh, god of pleasure. Maybe regular Eldar do too.

Orks - Actually a kind of fungal infection (I'm not kidding, they grow from spores). Orks are almost impossible to eliminate from a world once they infest it (usually by crashing stolen/abandoned space hulks onto a world) for this reason. If they infest enough worlds, their growth will become exponential and the Imperium is pretty much doomed.

Tyranids - A giant insect-like race that travel about in huge hive fleets. Supposedly their "invasions" that take out whole sectors are actually just probing raids for the main fleet on its way from the last galaxy they conquered. If their main fleet arrives, the Imperium is pretty much doomed.

Necrons - Undead machines built by some ancient malevolent machine gods that sleep in their tomb worlds. If the machine gods awaken, the Imperium is pretty much doomed.

Chaos - Led by some defected/mutated Space Marines (the strongest, most elite forces in the Imperium) chaos comes through rifts in to the warp (the alternate dimension of madness, chaos, and evil). Only the might of the undead Emperor and the thousands of psykers they sacrifice to him each day keep the main rift to the Warp from openning further and the Demon Gods and Chaos from overrunning our universe.  If the Emperor ever dies, the Warp tear will come completely open and the Imperium is pretty much doomed.

Tau - the one bright light in the WH40K universe. A race of rapidly advancing humanoids (like, apes to space travel in 10,000 years) that are actually willing to work with other races. Their main downside is they don't use Warp Travel (WH40K's FTL travel, dangerous since it is pretty much space hell) so it takes them hundreds of years to travel from star to star. The Imperium, of course, shoots them on sight.

I think that's all of them.


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## arcanaman (Dec 26, 2008)

Thanks for the site Derren so you can only play as a human in dark hersey or are the other races avaible because even thought it has been stated several times I still don't get it


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## Punnuendo (Dec 26, 2008)

For now and the foreseeable future, just humans are playable.


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## Derren (Dec 26, 2008)

arcanaman said:


> Thanks for the site Derren so you can only play as a human in dark hersey or are the other races avaible because even thought it has been stated several times I still don't get it




Just (normal) humans.
Everything else would be a hell to balance and impossible to explain, because the empire is xenophobic and kills everything not human on sight.
Only some high ranked individuals made deals with the Eldar now and then when they fight against an common enemy, but thats not something normal.

And on the eastern fringe of the galaxy, far from Terra, settlers do trade with Tau, but when the Empire finds out they all get killed.

Two quotes from the Warhammer 40K PC game which imo represent rather well the mindset of the people:
"Fear the alien, the mutant, the heretic"
"A open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unlocked"


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## Iron Sky (Dec 29, 2008)

So, we played our first Warhammer Fantasy game last night, since 3 of our 5 4e players couldn't make it to the game.  It went something like this:

Roll up characters:  This took about 15 minutes to make 2 characters, mostly because we only have 1 book.  We had rolled up characters previously, when we first got the books, but they were both halflings, so we scrapped them and rerolled something new.

We ended up with a dwarven outlaw and a dwarven pitfighter(totally random creation, even rolled 1d4 for race).  Decided they were brothers who had deserted from the dwarven army.  One was captured by slavers and resold as a pit fighter.  The outlaw came and busted his brother out.  A couple days pass.  End backstory.

Alone in the woods with no food, decided to follow the muddy "road" to find the next village.  Discover some rasberry bushes, eat them, confronted by a beggar woman with a cart full of garbage (they were "her" rasberry bushes).  After hiding the body, the dwarves take their new cart down the road.

Come across village.  Enter inn, xenophobic locals demand dwarves exit.  Decide to leave, but pit fighter tries to take a chair out of spite.  In following fight with the inn's "bouncers", pitfighter gets his hand broken and leg almost broken off.  Outlaw grabs his brother's body and runs like a little girl.

Outlaw finds temple of Sigmar, pays priest 1/3 of the dwarves money to take care of pit fighter until he's better.  Then spends the next week doing chores around the temple in exchange for a bit of money, food, and lodging.

When recoverred, head back to inn, demanding pit fighter's axes back.  Refused, bouncers confront and end up dead in the street, outlaw is beat to hell.  Beat the innkeeper up, steal the money from the inn, light the place on fire, and take the chair that started everything in the first place.  Innkeeper escapes and calls the guards.

Flee into woods, outlaw hides, pit fighter tracked down and makes his stand.  Hurt one guard enough that both flee, outlaw shoots the hurt one in the face with an arrow, other one escapes.  Loot the guard, flee into the woods.

Session ends.

It was entertaining for a pick up game.  The GM and the other player really enjoyed it.  I pin my lack of excitement on my difficulties getting into playing "little people" of any sort (dwarves, gnomes, halflings).  If we play again, I'll probably scrap my dwarf for something a bit closer to human-ish(elf, human) and see if I like it more then.


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## ValhallaGH (Dec 30, 2008)

A five foot tall, 218 lb angry, hirsute, homicidal man qualifies as "little people" in your mind?

Honestly, it really sounds like you grokked how to play a Warhammer dwarf pretty quickly.  Were you the pit fighter or the outlaw?


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## TheNovaLord (Dec 30, 2008)

yep, you cliched the game to its cliched, and tired, utmost

nobody would be an innkeeper ever in whfrp because the inn always gets burnt down...see my post on this thread 2 and half pages back....

next session you will find some warpstone in a bag and then go down a sewer and you never have to play again!!!


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## Sanzuo (Dec 30, 2008)

TheNovaLord said:


> yep, you cliched the game to its cliched, and tired, utmost
> 
> nobody would be an innkeeper ever in whfrp because the inn always gets burnt down...see my post on this thread 2 and half pages back....
> 
> next session you will find some warpstone in a bag and then go down a sewer and you never have to play again!!!





GM of the above game here.  In my defense I merely presented an inn with an angry innkeeper and MY PLAYERS made the decision to burn it down.

I'm unsure how to run a non-cliched warhammer game. Suggestions?


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## Iron Sky (Dec 30, 2008)

Sanzuo said:


> GM of the above game here.  In my defense I merely presented an inn with an angry innkeeper and MY PLAYERS made the decision to burn it down.




Actually, it was my pit fighter who decided to burn it down.  The outlaw was hesitant and would probably have said not to if I had bothered to ask.


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## Sanzuo (Dec 30, 2008)

Iron Sky said:


> Actually, it was my pit fighter who decided to burn it down.  The outlaw was hesitant and would probably have said not to if I had bothered to ask.




Hi, Shorty.  Comb your beard lately?


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## Rel (Dec 30, 2008)

TheNovaLord said:


> yep, you cliched the game to its cliched, and tired, utmost
> 
> nobody would be an innkeeper ever in whfrp because the inn always gets burnt down...see my post on this thread 2 and half pages back....
> 
> next session you will find some warpstone in a bag and then go down a sewer and you never have to play again!!!




You've made your feelings about this game pretty well known.  I'm curious as to what is compelling you to post further in this thread.


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## Nebulous (Dec 30, 2008)

So, i'm thinking that if i run WFRP, i might not run it as dark and grim and loathesome as the default.  I might give the players a few more magic items and potions than typically done (with the chance of backfiring and poisoning them, as per the charts in Realms of Sorcery!).

I appreciate the grim nature of the game and the hopeless battle against Chaos and beastmen and skaven, but if i was a player, i would want to have some trinkets to boost me above the average scummy citizen doomed to a life of failure, pestilence and superstition.  No vorpal blade, nothing like that (unless it was cursed), but more like balms and salves and small hedge witch baubles for luck and whatnot.

Does anyone else inject a dose of less-lethal magic into the game?  Stuff that can actually help your character without being a "once in a lifetime magic item"?  Maybe i'm just too nice.


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## Rel (Dec 30, 2008)

Nebulous said:


> So, i'm thinking that if i run WFRP, i might not run it as dark and grim and loathesome as the default.  I might give the players a few more magic items and potions than typically done (with the chance of backfiring and poisoning them, as per the charts in Realms of Sorcery!).




I think this is an entirely valid choice (it's more or less what I did when I ran my Pirates of the Caribbean Warhammer game).  However I think one of the joys of WFRP is how, especially early on, the little things mean a lot.  In the early going, when the PC's gear is most likely very crappy, just finding some untainted food or nice bedding is a real treat.

That doesn't mean that the entirety of the campaign has to be, "Well we slept in the mud all night but at least our throats weren't slit, so that's something!"  Just that the gradual creep up from rags to riches starts so low that finding "nicer rags than the ones you were wearing" is a decent treasure.  One day when the PC's are in their third career and are considered heroes by the locals, they'll look back with fondness on that time they found that silver candlestick that was enough to buy them a chain shirt from the blacksmith with enough left over to keep them in beer for a week.

When I played in another GM's WFRP game, we managed to survive a couple encounters with undead in Karak Azgal and get our hands on two full sets of chainmail.  We (the other Dwarf and I) were THRILLED that we had some decent armor.  Later we were defeated by some Goblins and stripped of our gear but were lucky enough (i.e. spent a Fate Point) to get rescued by another adventuring party.  No sooner had we been rescued than we resolved that we had to go back IMMEDIATELY to try and recover that armor.  It was priceless to us.  And this is just regular chain armor I'm talking about.

Good times and I don't think you get that feel with every system out there so I tend to savor it with WFRP.


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## Nebulous (Dec 30, 2008)

Rel said:


> Good times and I don't think you get that feel with every system out there so I tend to savor it with WFRP.




Yeah, good points about savoring the little things. I haven't actually played the game yet so i'm probably assuming too much.  I think it also takes a good roleplaying crowd to really enjoy sleeping in the mud and not getting your throat slit as "reward" for a day's hard work!


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## Sanzuo (Dec 30, 2008)

Rel said:


> I think this is an entirely valid choice (it's more or less what I did when I ran my Pirates of the Caribbean Warhammer game).  However I think one of the joys of WFRP is how, especially early on, the little things mean a lot.  In the early going, when the PC's gear is most likely very crappy, just finding some untainted food or nice bedding is a real treat.
> 
> That doesn't mean that the entirety of the campaign has to be, "Well we slept in the mud all night but at least our throats weren't slit, so that's something!"  Just that the gradual creep up from rags to riches starts so low that finding "nicer rags than the ones you were wearing" is a decent treasure.  One day when the PC's are in their third career and are considered heroes by the locals, they'll look back with fondness on that time they found that silver candlestick that was enough to buy them a chain shirt from the blacksmith with enough left over to keep them in beer for a week.
> 
> ...




Man this makes me want to run this game more and more.

Does anyone have any suggestions on how to handle item economy and player loot?  The core book is the only thing I have and it mentions really only vaguely on how to give monetary rewards to the players.  I could see selling weapons and armor the players loot as being their primary source of income.  How much should the PCs be getting back for selling loot?  (Loot, of course being a rickety hand cart which I believe is currently the most valuable item the players have.)*  I'm thinking if the players want to sell something the NPC would start at a ridiculous bottom-line price of like, say, 10% of the actual value.  And if the PC has some slick negotiating skills they might be able to talk him up to 50%.

As far as liquid assets, I've been rolling 2d10 in copper pennies for randomly being on typical dirtbag NPCs.

*Now that I think about it, when we last saw our "heroes" they were running like mad through dense woodlands from a small town where they had just committed assault, triple murder, robbery and arson.  So I'm not sure they brought their cart with them.


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## Nebulous (Dec 30, 2008)

Sanzuo said:


> *Now that I think about it, when we last saw our "heroes" they were running like mad through dense woodlands from a small town where they had just committed assault, triple murder, robbery and arson.  So I'm not sure they brought their cart with them.




Is their cart loaded?  I'd give then an ultimatum:  "The authorities are going to catch you if you keep pushing that cart of stolen stuff through the woods."  or  "Ditch that cart and run like hell!  If you're lucky you might get away..."


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## Rel (Dec 30, 2008)

Sanzuo said:


> Does anyone have any suggestions on how to handle item economy and player loot?  The core book is the only thing I have and it mentions really only vaguely on how to give monetary rewards to the players.  I could see selling weapons and armor the players loot as being their primary source of income.




Let me offer a few suggestions here:

Early on the PC's are going to be threatened by almost anything they fight.  A Peasant with a pitchfork is a non-trivial challenge that probably won't defeat the group but could land a lucky hit and kill any single player.  So make thier early foes approximately as pathetic as the PC's.  Unarmored Goblins with clubs are a threat.  And the PC's won't walk away from that fight with six suits of mail, shield and weapon.

However don't overdo it.  Let them come away with something besides bruises and scars.  If the Goblin leader has a shield, a helmet and a sturdy cleaver (Hand Weapon) with the word "Kutter" scrateched on the side of it, the PC's will ever after cherrish Kutter and speak of it in awed reverence each time it is buried in the skull of an Orc.  But you should make sure that the inside of the helmet smells "like a goblin's ear" and, no matter how much they wash it, they just can't get that smell out.

My point here is that low level foes often have gear that is of such a low quality that literally nobody wants to buy it.  The blacksmith might give them "a few pennies each" for the goblin spearheads since he can melt down the metal and make something worthwhile out of it.  Otherwise that smelly leather armor is something nobody wants.

Later on the PC's will be facing bad guys with more standard gear.  At first some of this stuff may go to round out the PC's own equipment.  It was a glorious day for the Vagabond in our group when he got rid of the patchwork of moldy leather armor he'd scavenged together and replaced it with a (mechanically identical) suit of "clean" leather armor we got from a thug we killed.  For the next few sessions we all commented on how nice it was that "the Vagabond no longer smells like feet!"

But sooner or later the PC's will want to sell off some decent gear.  And you should let them, to a point, because they earned it.  Combat in WFRP can be deadly dangerous and to the victor goes the spoils.  But the limit aside from supply is demand.  There are only so many chain shirts that the local town needs before they start refusing to buy.  And remember, those chain shirts were looted off of bad guys that the PC's killed.  They probably need some repairs so that will reduce their resale value.

As before, they may quickly get to the point that the only person with any need for those scraps of armor and nicked weapons is the local blacksmith who can melt it down.  And he doesn't have unlimited funds.  Let him barter with them, offering to sharpen their weapons up "to a razor's edge" so that they give a +5% to Weapon  Skill for one battle rather than pay them cash.

Another method you can use is to pay them in favors.  Having a local lord "owe you a solid" is really sweet.  And such a lord may have troops that he's trying to outfit.  He might let the PC's know that he would be "forever in their debt" if they'd donate some of that armor they got from the Orcs to his military under construction.

Anyway, that's just a few things to consider.  I'm sure others have similar ideas.


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## Teflon Billy (Dec 30, 2008)

Rel said:


> ...Anyway, that's just a few things to consider.  I'm sure others have similar ideas.




Most of the early "treasure" in my previous Warhammer campaigns has been along the lines of Food (many, _many_ battles are/were fought under the effects of the starvation rules), well-made clothing and crap where it was unclear if it was even treasure (a string of bone beads from around a Goblin's neck, totally worthless. His spear, totally worthless. The metal spearhead and end-cap on the spear staff...worth a few pennies as raw material for a smith)

There was an entire span of the campaign in the Border Principalities where the characters signed on with a robber baron for 3 meals a day, "looting privileges"--third in line--and a barracks with a hearth and fire (they were wounded, it was winter and they needed somewhere to hole up).

That was the best deal they _ever_ got from any of the Border Princes.

It sounds stingy, and coming from a background of D&D...it totally is.

But not all games are meant to emulate what someone (whose name eludes me) described as *Tom Clancy's Lord of the Rings*. Tons of "stuff" doesn't model the Warhammer setting well.

The idea that you would have to clearly delineate how many body "slots" a character has so they can choose from their myriad magic items which "kit" to go with is just anathema to the Warhammer setting (and, to my mind, most of the Fantasy fiction I try to emulate in my games...but that is another thread)

Once the players get used to the new paradigm, if your adventures are compelling, it becomes the new normal.

Think of Food as a "healing" or "restoration" potion that cures the "Stat Damage" from...starvation. Which is pretty common.

And remember, "Magic Items" in this setting aren't analogous D&D "Treasure"...they are analogous to D&D "Traps"


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## Sanzuo (Dec 30, 2008)

Nebulous said:


> Is their cart loaded?  I'd give then an ultimatum:  "The authorities are going to catch you if you keep pushing that cart of stolen stuff through the woods."  or  "Ditch that cart and run like hell!  If you're lucky you might get away..."




No they just had the cart ITSELF, which they killed a bag-lady/beggar person for.  And on reflection they definitely left it behind.  Also I forgot they murdered a town guard as they fled.  So that's four people.  The bag-lady, two inn bouncers and the guard.  They're deep in it.


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## Teflon Billy (Dec 30, 2008)

Sanzuo said:


> No they just had the cart ITSELF, which they killed a bag-lady/beggar person for.  And on reflection they definitely left it behind.  Also I forgot they murdered a town guard as they fled.  So that's four people.  The bag-lady, two inn bouncers and the guard.  They're deep in it.




Feh! They just need to get to the next town. No way is anyone from a little hamlet going to follow them through the wilderness.

If somebody with money actually cares if any of those folks bit the dust, they might need to look out for Bounty Hunters, but otherwise they just need to make themselves scarce.

The worst part is that, as a pair of Dwarves, they are easily recognizable.


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## TheNovaLord (Dec 31, 2008)

Rel said:


> You've made your feelings about this game pretty well known. I'm curious as to what is compelling you to post further in this thread.




cos im curious as too why all the inns in whfrp-world get burnt down, and why its one of those games people see through, IMO, rose tinted glasses....but mostly as too why people burn down all the inns.

interested to read other peoples thoughts. I have tried a fair number of times to get into it, but lose heart to its ugly mechanics and silly, rather than gritty feel.

still, people seem to be enjoying it so i will bug out the thread. originally wanted to just post a balanced counter view


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## Teflon Billy (Dec 31, 2008)

TheNovaLord said:


> cos im curious as too why all the inns in whfrp-world get burnt down, and why its one of those games people see through, IMO, rose tinted glasses....but mostly as too why people burn down all the inns.




I'm not sure, but you aren't imagining it. It happens at least once in most games I've played, happened in the game mentioned in this very thread and happens fairly often in the Warhammer Novels 

As to "why" though? I have no answer for you.



> interested to read other peoples thoughts. I have tried a fair number of times to get into it, but lose heart to its ugly mechanics and silly, rather than gritty feel.




The mechanics in the new edition are basically sound, but a certain "silliness" has always bee a part of it. You aren't imagining that either, I think it's a feature rather than a bug though. Too much "grim grim grim grim" uninterrupted is as dull as the "everything is _Wonderful_"  feel of FR over the long haul.



> still, people seem to be enjoying it so i will bug out the thread. originally wanted to just post a balanced counter view




Adios


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## Donovan Morningfire (Dec 31, 2008)

Rel said:


> You've made your feelings about this game pretty well known.  I'm curious as to what is compelling you to post further in this thread.



Quite probably the same sort of mindset that made people continuely participate in the edition wars during D&D 4e's release.

As for running a WHFP game and not falling into the "stereotypes," a fair amount of that falls on the shoulders of the players as well as the GM.

From the campaign I played in, not a single inn was burned down (in fact, we stopped an inn from being burned down) and there were zero trips into a sewer.  So by NovaLord's logic, we must not have been playing WHFP   Our GM, being a veteran of the minis game, knew the tropes and did a pretty good job of avoiding the more heinous ones.  Truth be told, the most fun session we had was a festival that one of the local Imperial lords was holding to for his son's 9th birthday, though there were a few nefarious plots of varying degrees to be unraveled (assassin to kill the lord, a treacherous Imperial knight determined to win the joust at all costs, and a low-down flithly blighter that tried to spike the ale kegs with mad cap mushrooms).

I can't really speak as to "party wealth" seeing as how our group consisted of a Elf Kithband Warrior, a Bretonnian Knight-Errant, a Human Entertainer dancer/knife-thrower, a Human Apprentice Wizard, a Human Roadwarden, and a Dwarf Troll Slayer (together we fought crime; crime and orcs, lots of orcs).  Not a single magical item was found, but then again we weren't exactly starving for money either and started out with pretty solid equipment, which I gather from posts in this thread isn't typical.  Or maybe our GM wasn't quite that petty with starting equipment (it was servicable and in fairly decent condition).  We also didn't try and loot the orcs' gear, mostly since there was a bounty on orc heads that paid well enough.

For adventures, click the MediaFire link I posted earlier in this thread on page 4.  There's a sub-header on that page called "Adventures" and has a wealth of material, both to run as is or to use as inspiration to draw from.


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## arcanaman (Jan 1, 2009)

I have not been able to find any sourcebooks at my local bookstores (to be fair I have not checked them all) so where is the best place to buy them borders does have them I could try barn an nobles or comic and rpg shop here in town know as Mayhem were did you guys get yours


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## pawsplay (Jan 1, 2009)

Nebulous said:


> So, i'm thinking that if i run WFRP, i might not run it as dark and grim and loathesome as the default.  I might give the players a few more magic items and potions than typically done (with the chance of backfiring and poisoning them, as per the charts in Realms of Sorcery!).
> 
> I appreciate the grim nature of the game and the hopeless battle against Chaos and beastmen and skaven, but if i was a player, i would want to have some trinkets to boost me above the average scummy citizen doomed to a life of failure, pestilence and superstition.  No vorpal blade, nothing like that (unless it was cursed), but more like balms and salves and small hedge witch baubles for luck and whatnot.
> 
> Does anyone else inject a dose of less-lethal magic into the game?  Stuff that can actually help your character without being a "once in a lifetime magic item"?  Maybe i'm just too nice.




WHFRP does not have to be an endless Monty Python sketch based on a Kafka story. Keep in mind, the setting does have heroic knights, legendary weapons, miracles, and priests who can (sometimes) cure plague with the touch of their hands.


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## LoneWolf23 (Jan 2, 2009)

pawsplay said:


> WHFRP does not have to be an endless Monty Python sketch based on a Kafka story. Keep in mind, the setting does have heroic knights, legendary weapons, miracles, and priests who can (sometimes) cure plague with the touch of their hands.




That's what I was wondering about...  Is the Utter Crapsack World bleakness _absolutely_ necessary to run a Warhammer game, or is it possible to run a game where the PCs can actually _win_, even if it's one of those "well, everyone else is dead, but at least we made it out" kind of Horror movie endings?


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## ValhallaGH (Jan 2, 2009)

LoneWolf23 said:


> That's what I was wondering about...  Is the Utter Crapsack World bleakness _absolutely_ necessary to run a Warhammer game, or is it possible to run a game where the PCs can actually _win_, even if it's one of those "well, everyone else is dead, but at least we made it out" kind of Horror movie endings?



It's setting appropriate for the party to win, in the short term.  The world is screwed, and at best the party can hold that off for an extra century through the effects of their entire adventuring career.  However, they _can_ cause the world to have that extra century of only semi-Chaos corrupted life.

So, yes.


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## pawsplay (Jan 2, 2009)

LoneWolf23 said:


> That's what I was wondering about...  Is the Utter Crapsack World bleakness _absolutely_ necessary to run a Warhammer game, or is it possible to run a game where the PCs can actually _win_, even if it's one of those "well, everyone else is dead, but at least we made it out" kind of Horror movie endings?




Warhammer characters can and do win. It's just that death, dismemberment, and insanity are also possible outcomes. It's not utter bleakness so much as the fact that the adventuring business is dangerous, and Warhammer treats those risks seriously. 

As for the big picture... maybe Chaos is going to win, who knows? But there are plenty of people in the Warhammer world who believe it can be beaten. Warhammer really isn't all that much bleaker than Lord of the Rings. Both have evil hordes, insidious collaborators with the Enemy, and the good guys starting the fight on the defensive. 

I think the archetypal Warhammer is a game in which some characters die, but not all, and one or more characters end with a nasty scar or war wound. It's also possible for everyone to end up being mutated into mindless horrors. It's also possible for the PCs to literally make off like bandits, living the high life while daring lord, church, and the fiends of Hell to take it from them.


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## Mokona (Jan 2, 2009)

You start as a peasant, but you get to take cool careers with names like Witch-Hunter.  The art in the 1989 Games Workshop Ltd version is really inspiring but the rules are overly complicated.  The Warhammer Fantasy world is very flavorful with some overtones of Europe/Earth so it feels slightly familiar.


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## Treebore (Jan 3, 2009)

OK, I have a fair amount of play time under my belt, enough to have earned over 400 EP's.  I joined a game in progress so started at 1300 EP's and just getting into the Pistoleer profession after starting/finishing the Noble "profession".

As for the question about how do we make money. We have a haggler in the party, so we make good money off of equipment. I just got a full set of plate mail the session before last, due to how much we made off of equipment. We are fighting stuff with average quality weapons and even a few full suits of chain mail. I would say for every 100 gold we have been "earning" so far we have made 300 from selling equipment, books, etc... With a haggler at 50% we have been doing well on prices.

Is the game deadly? Yes, but still much like D&D is. Once you get good gear and your weapon skills start getting to 40% and higher. Like my PC is a dwarf, and his toughness just advanced to 51%, so he now, with his armor, negates the first 10 points of damage . Since all damage is on a d10, I now only take damage from only their strength bonus, and only when the damage dice is high enough.

Still, it can be deadly, like tonight I still got hit often enough and well enough to take 8 wounds, with only 3 PC's fighting 12 beastmen and two of their leader types, so almost 5 opponents each. Could we have died? Yes, but with our toughness scores, and armor, reducing the damage, even though we got hit often enough we shrugged most of the damage off, allowing us to kick butt.

So this game allows for you to start in the dirt, literally, but with luck, you can survive long enough to eventually get a lot of gold (my character has almost 2000 gold coin worth of gear and coins now) and be well equipped and skilled enough to be pretty darn tough, but still know death is very possible despite being as tough as you are.

In other words it feels very realistic, you feel like a soldier who stays alive due to his wits, skill, and luck. A feeling you don't always keep in a game like D&D.

So even though my character is pretty darn tough, with great armor, and nice weapons, he could still die, just now the GM likely needs to get in 4 to 5 hits with max damage in quick succession. Not very likely, but still possible, and you know it. So the feeling of risking your life is still there.

Plus this is without the GM throwing nastier creatures at us. Like he hasn't thrown Trolls at us, and they are pretty nasty. Then there are Chaos demons, which are worse. Far worse.

One thing I am really liking about this particular game is I feel like we are playing out those cool scenes from movies. Our superior equipment, training, skill, and teamwork, with a decent dose of luck, allows us to kick butt, take names, and still take a beating and still come close to losing a companion or three. Fortunately our group has managed to stay alive, and we now have a healer!

So yes, you can make WH as gritty a struggle in the mud you want it to be, but you can also make it anything above that, and you'll have fun.

Just realize that WH is a percentile system, where rolling low is good, and all damage is based around the D10, but is as gritty as you can imagine, but you can also drag yourself out fo the mud and become a respectable hero.


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## frankthedm (Jan 3, 2009)

well, here is the cone templates for wfrp 1e and 2e.

WFRP 1E cone




WFRP 2E cone






warhammer fantasty battles 3rd edition 10 & 5/8th" flame template.


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## Rel (Jan 3, 2009)

Treebore said:


> So even though my character is pretty darn tough, with great armor, and nice weapons, he could still die, just now the GM likely needs to get in 4 to 5 hits with max damage in quick succession.




Or else just one Ulrick's Fury that rolls a couple 10's in a row.  Not likely but...ouch!


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## arcanaman (Jan 3, 2009)

I have been looking in on the tome of corruption (still don't own any sourcebooks) I was just wondering if it has rules for chaos men, orcs,goblins and dark elves  and can anyone explain to me tenezech curse and how it works ?


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## Treebore (Jan 3, 2009)

Rel said:


> Or else just one Ulrick's Fury that rolls a couple 10's in a row.  Not likely but...ouch!







Our DM is so afraid of killing us, due to the deadly rep of WH, he has yet to institute that rule against us. In fact, if he did have that rule in place there is a very good chance he would have killed two of us, because several of his rolls that did damage us were natural 10's. So he appears to be right to make the game more survivable.


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## Rel (Jan 4, 2009)

Treebore said:


> Our DM is so afraid of killing us, due to the deadly rep of WH, he has yet to institute that rule against us. In fact, if he did have that rule in place there is a very good chance he would have killed two of us, because several of his rolls that did damage us were natural 10's. So he appears to be right to make the game more survivable.




Bah!  That's what Fate Points are for, man!


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## Treebore (Jan 4, 2009)

Rel said:


> Bah!  That's what Fate Points are for, man!





Maybe, they were beastmen. The wounds were also early in the combat, so if he took us both down its doubtful the third would have held against 8 to 1 odds, even with his 10 toughness. Even with fate points I don't know if this DM would have thought of a way to keep us alive, since he had already said the beastmen would eat our bodies.

As far as I can tell he is right not to institute it if he wants a survivable game.


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## Wik (Jan 4, 2009)

Y'know, I love reading this thread.  I had an ice talk with a guy at the FLGS regarding WH, and I sort of brought up this very thread.  More or less, we were talking about how so many people love this game online, but it's very hard to get players interested in it in real life.

(At least, it is in our neck of the woods)

When I first bought this game, around the same time we abandoned 3.5E and were looking for a new game (we wound up playing Savage Worlds), I was really excited by it.  I picked up the main book, the Bestiary, and Border Princes in the same one-month period, and I couldn't stop singing it's praises.  I called it a "less magical version of Dark Sun" - high praise, coming from me.

When I explained the sytem, though, it didn't mesh well with my players.  My brother ran a sample combat, and thought it was too much of a grind (it is, in a 1 on 1 situation, I later found out).  A good friend of mine hated the idea of the career system (he likes being able to CHOOSE his character, so he keeps telling me... but he likes Gamma World, go figure).  The whole group was against it.  The only player who didn't really have anything negative to say about the game itself was a woman, and she wasn't too fond of playing in a game based off real-life Medieval Europe, and I can respect her thoughts there.

(Basically, her argument was that if she were allowed to play "any role", it wouldn't feel as medieval to her and would break the setting, but if she wasn't able to play any role and had to fight against gender bias regular, it wouldn't be very fun for her;  couple this with the fact that Bretonnia, at least, has several "you must be a male or impersonate a male" careers, and you can see her point). 

I still pick up books (I have around eight now, though I'm a bit miffed that the book that came with my recent GM screen is missing 9 pages!), hoping my players will change their minds, or I can find a sunday-afternoon gaming club that will want to play it.  I even have a nice sandbox-style campaign figured out (PCs have to find a way to sneak a cannon to a surrounded garrison during a battle of the bulge-style invasion by beastmen)... though I doubt I'll ever get to run it.


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## Jasperak (Jan 4, 2009)

Treebore said:


> /snip
> 
> Is the game deadly? Yes, but still much like D&D *WAS*. Once you get good gear and your weapon skills start getting to 40% and higher. Like my PC is a dwarf, and his toughness just advanced to 51%, so he now, with his armor, negates the first 10 points of damage . Since all damage is on a d10, I now only take damage from only their strength bonus, and only when the damage dice is high enough.
> 
> ...




Edited it for you  and I think it has the same feeling like AD&D1e and 2e


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## Iron Sky (Jan 5, 2009)

I'm actually in the midst of a Warhammer Fantasy game right now.  My elf got his leg screwed up by a pack of ratmen and was barely healed when we hobbled to the next village.

In the night, we were beset by four goblins.  Right now, my Elven Hunter just burned his last fate point after getting hit in the arm for 13 damage while only having 2 wounds left.  So he's lying unconcious as the party is fighting for its life.  Two goblins are injured.  The Dwarven Outlaw is fighting two at once, while the Barber/Surgeon has his weapon hand crippled and is hiding behind his shield.  The Halfling is bleeding out from a wound to his arm while trying to hold off another goblin.


Update: While typing this and grabbing some snacks, the fight ended.  The Outlaw - the only one with armor on every part of his body and two attacks, managed to kill half the goblins and drive the other two off.  The barber/surgeon managed to make his toughness roll to avoid losing his arm.  Everyone is wounded, three of us critically.

Right now, the barber is trying to find a place inside to sleep so we aren't ambushed by goblins again so we can rest for a few days.  We're supposed to be chasing down a heretic whose reward poster we saw, but every other day chasing after him we've been ambushed by some form of nastiness.  I think so far, in about three weeks of game time, we've fought, in order:

2 bouncers + 1 innkeeper.
2 town guards
3 beast men
4 goblins + 1 orc
4 rat men
4 more goblins

The last two fights were while chasing down the heretic.  We've had at least 1 person injured at the start of 3/4 of the fights.  During about half the fights, we started with one person heavily wounded (1-3 wounds left).  We've also burned down one inn and been burned out of one by goblins.  We've only had one character die, my Dwarven Pit Fighter who died of an infected wound, though as a group we've permanently burned about 4-5 fate points to keep from having other characters die.


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## Wik (Jan 5, 2009)

Doesn't it just seem like WH stories sort of create themselves?  

DM Input - Goblins attack the PCs.
Game Input - huge wounds, infections, and all sorts of nastiness.


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## Donovan Morningfire (Jan 5, 2009)

Treebore said:


> As far as I can tell he is right not to institute it if he wants a survivable game.



Sounds like your GM has the exact opposite like of my group's GM.

Got together this past Saturday to kick-off a new campaign, with several of us picking up our old characters, who had parted ways after the old campaign wrapped up.  Basic summary was that we met at an inn in a small town whilst en route to Nuln for various reasons.  Only this town was heavy with Chaos cultists (GM did say he was going to spice things up from the near-constant barrage of Greenskins from the last campaign free), and they even had a bound daemon kept on a very tight leash (which naturally broke).  Fair amount of intrigue, especially considering half the group isn't really geared up for that sort of thing, in that we had to deduce who was responsible for the series of murders leading up to what was supposed to be a grand sacrifice (with the travelers staying at the inn as the guests of honor), and figured it out just in time for the cultists (Khorne) to launch their attack.  We managed to come out okay; I took the most damage at 6 Wounds, but then again I'm a Bretonnian knight on horseback wearing full plate, so I was priority target numero uno, especially after spearing one of the bigger cultists with my lance and killing him outright (Virtue of Heroism gets pretty nasty against low-armor foes, and GM uses Sudden Death rules for crits on no-namers), though the Sigmarite Battle Priestess was just as brutal considering how often she rolled 8 or better for damage, and the Elf Scout doing the archer thing (but not getting the damage rolls he got in the last campaign, much to the GM's relief).  And that leashed daemon, that the GM figured was going to cause a lot of pain?  The party wizard (having earned enough XP to hit her Journeyman Wizard career to get Arcane Lore: Light) dispensed it pretty quickly with the Banish spell, though she did draw Tzeentch's Curse in the process, causing her long, elegantly styled hair to stand on end for a few hours (she's become a bit of a fashionista since last campaign)

There a still a few more characters to introduce to the mix (only 2/3rds of the total group were able to show up), but based on what I've seen so far regarding group dynamic, it should be pretty interesting.  Can't wait until we get to Nuln...


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## Donovan Morningfire (Jan 5, 2009)

arcanaman said:


> I have been looking in on the tome of corruption (still don't own any sourcebooks) I was just wondering if it has rules for chaos men, orcs,goblins and dark elves  and can anyone explain to me tenezech curse and how it works ?



Can't speak to what's in Tome of Corruption, though I'm guessing probably not much on greenskins or dark elves going by comments on FFG and Strike-to-Stun's message boards.

Regarding the Tzeentch's Curse rules, from what I've seen and read in the core book, anytime the dice you roll to cast a spell come up doubles, triples, or quadruples, you get a nasty magical backlash, with the result of it rolled on a special table, and the more of the same number you get when casting, the worse the potential backlash.  It's actually explained pretty well (I think) in the core book.


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## Nebulous (Jan 7, 2009)

Donovan Morningfire said:


> Regarding the Tzeentch's Curse rules, from what I've seen and read in the core book, anytime the dice you roll to cast a spell come up doubles, triples, or quadruples, you get a nasty magical backlash, with the result of it rolled on a special table, and the more of the same number you get when casting, the worse the potential backlash.  It's actually explained pretty well (I think) in the core book.




Yep, that sums it up.  The table I REALLY like is from the Realms of Sorcery, the potion spoilage table.  Unlike D&D, Warhammer potions only last for a limited number of season, 7 at the most a think (roughly a year and a half?) before they're fully spoiled.  Drinking a potion can have a wide berth of effects from Bad Breath to Death.  I love it actually, and i'm incorporating that chart into my 4e campaign.

Damn, i really want to play WFRP, but it will be hard to convince the players anytime soon.  Maybe i can find a secondary group...


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## Treebore (Jan 7, 2009)

Nebulous said:


> Yep, that sums it up.  The table I REALLY like is from the Realms of Sorcery, the potion spoilage table.  Unlike D&D, Warhammer potions only last for a limited number of season, 7 at the most a think (roughly a year and a half?) before they're fully spoiled.  Drinking a potion can have a wide berth of effects from Bad Breath to Death.  I love it actually, and i'm incorporating that chart into my 4e campaign.
> 
> Damn, i really want to play WFRP, but it will be hard to convince the players anytime soon.  Maybe i can find a secondary group...





I'm telling you, on line gaming. Its worth doing, and if you don't watch it you'll have more games to play than time to play them.

DL SKYPE and Maptools. Maptools is at rptools.net, and its all free. If you also know how to "port forward" your golden.

My WH game is on line, and the only reason I am able to play it.


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## Nebulous (Jan 7, 2009)

Treebore said:


> I'm telling you, on line gaming. Its worth doing, and if you don't watch it you'll have more games to play than time to play them.
> 
> DL SKYPE and Maptools. Maptools is at rptools.net, and its all free. If you also know how to "port forward" your golden.
> 
> My WH game is on line, and the only reason I am able to play it.




Yeah, i'm upgrading my desktop soon, i just might do that. If nothing else it will give me some hands on experience with the system until i can get a face to face game up and running.


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## Treebore (Jan 7, 2009)

Nebulous said:


> Yeah, i'm upgrading my desktop soon, i just might do that. If nothing else it will give me some hands on experience with the system until i can get a face to face game up and running.





Well, our game is Monday nights, I believe the EST start time is 9 PM. It goes to midnight, EST. I am Arizona, so 7 to 10 PM for me. I believe that is 6 to 9 PM PST.

So I can hook you up.

As for desktop, if you have 512 meg of RAM and DSL or better, your already good enough. Dial up probably can't handle maptools. Not sure. Everyone I game with has DSL or better.


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## Nebulous (Jan 7, 2009)

Treebore said:


> Well, our game is Monday nights, I believe the EST start time is 9 PM. It goes to midnight, EST. I am Arizona, so 7 to 10 PM for me. I believe that is 6 to 9 PM PST.
> 
> So I can hook you up.
> 
> As for desktop, if you have 512 meg of RAM and DSL or better, your already good enough. Dial up probably can't handle maptools. Not sure. Everyone I game with has DSL or better.




Well, my bedtime is about 9pm EST, i'm up around 4:30 for work, so that schedule would kill me.  Critical hit to the eyelids.


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## Nebulous (Jan 7, 2009)

I also ordered a new USB wireless card for the desktop because the room where it's located has no cable outlet for our high speed connection.  Otherwise, yeah, it should be fine.  Thanks for the offer though.


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## evilgenius8000 (Jan 11, 2009)

I recently purchased the 2nd Ed WFRP core rulebook (in large part due to the praises being sung in this thread) and am in the process of learning the game in order to run it while the majority of my D&D players are away at school. There is one thing that I cannot figure out, though... How do I judge what is a easy/moderate/challenging/sure death encounter for the PCs?


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Jan 11, 2009)

evilgenius8000 said:


> I recently purchased the 2nd Ed WFRP core rulebook (in large part due to the praises being sung in this thread) and am in the process of learning the game in order to run it while the majority of my D&D players are away at school. There is one thing that I cannot figure out, though... How do I judge what is a easy/moderate/challenging/sure death encounter for the PCs?



Experience in GMing the game. Unfortunately, there are no CR or Challenge Level guidelines.

General things to consider about combats in Warhammer (I never DMed Warhammer, so others might be able to give you more specific advice.)
- Characters get one parry and one dodge roll per round. Superior numbers hurt a lot. 
- Keep the hit/parry percentiles of the PCs in mind. You can "guesstimate" them usually, they start around 31 and go up around 10 points per career finished. But the more advances you have, the more divergence is possible, so it's a good idea to just check the stats.
- Consider the armor available to the PCs. This can and will stay divergent, so don't base things on the toughest PC - mix your enemies so that only few have a chance to easily go through the PCs armor and toughness bonus. 

You could try "experimenting" a little - if you think a fight is too easy, add more combatants, if they are to hard, add some allies. (Nice if they have been established as in the area, but also a potential plot hook.) For example, you could have your first combat set up with a group of other adventuring heroes or imperial military in mind that can enter combat. If you see it's going well for the PCs, these just arrive as the last monster is dispatched. If it's tough, they arrive earlier. If it's too easy, have support for the enemies come in, possibly mixed with the appearance of the PCs allies.


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## Rel (Jan 11, 2009)

I agree with all of Mustrum's points above.  Good armor (especially when you slap it on a high Toughness Dwarf) goes a long way toward mitigating damage taken.  But when the Goblin gang up on you 3 to 1 then you're in big trouble regardless.

I would suggest that for a new group you should ramp things up slowly.  Start off with something where no matter how badly things go the PC's won't end up dead:  A bar fight.  This will give them a chance to test out the combat mechanics in an environment where the worst that's likely to happen is they wake up in a mud puddle out in the street.

Then maybe throw them a very easy fight of some sort.  Maybe a lone orc marauder or a couple hungry wolves.

Then I'd have their first "real" challenge be one that you can adjust on the fly.  A fight at a Goblin lair is the kind of thing I'm thinking of where you can start them off with group of Gobbos, maybe 1 per PC.  Then, if things are too much of a cakewalk, you can have a couple more bad guys appear from an adjacent room.

Alternatively you can just run whatever you like, knowing that Fate Points will save them in the early going.  For all the talk about how deadly WFRP is, the Fate Point mechanic insures their survival in those first couple tight spots.


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## el-remmen (Jan 11, 2009)

Two things:

1) The description of WHFRP resonates with how I run D&D (which makes sense since back in the day I remember stealing ideas from the ads for the game in Dragon when it first came out (even have mohawk wearing troll-killing dwarves in my homebrew).

2) Now I really want to run a WHFRP game.

3) While I had played it in a one-shot long ago, the most recent and fun experlence with WHFRP was with Mike Mearls running it (hmmm, about 6 years ago?).  Wow, was that fun! 

Did I say "two things"?  I lied.


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## Iron Sky (Jan 11, 2009)

If you're worried about balancing encounters, you could instead do what happens in our (recently started) game.  Don't.

One of the things we're enjoying about this game vs D&D is breaking free of the D&D "the encounters are designed for you" mentality to "I hope we don't bump into that troll that they say is in these woods."

Making a new character takes all of 10 minutes, maybe a bit more if you're giving them the same xp their last character had (as we are doing).

Warhammer is fast and deadly and gritty.  I'd highly recommend playing it that way, at least at first.  We're finding the experience a welcome change after being 4e super-heroes.  I've lost two characters in four or five sessions and I'm having a blast (my dwarf got an infected wound, my elven archer took three arrows in a row to the face).

Now on my third character, I'm actually playing him like a mortal being that cares whether he lives or dies since I now know first-hand how deadly the WHFR world is.

We played our weekly 4e game last night after doing two weeks of random WHFR sessions (both my roommies roleplay) and it felt extra... gamey.  Not that it wasn't fun, but there was no fear of death and even 10 levels in, I have little attatchment to my character since 4e feels vaguely computer-game ish.  The contrast to Warhammer really brought that to the fore.


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## Jasperak (Jan 12, 2009)

My copy of WHFRG 2e is due in this week... I have a Human Rat Catcher ready to go. When was the last time I looked forward to playing a rat catcher? Not while playing D&D that's for sure, though I did like having a small group of 1st-level characters ready to take the place of any that fell.


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## evilgenius8000 (Jan 12, 2009)

Thanks for all the advice everybody!



Iron Sky said:


> If you're worried about balancing encounters, you could instead do what happens in our (recently started) game.  Don't.
> 
> One of the things we're enjoying about this game vs D&D is breaking free of the D&D "the encounters are designed for you" mentality to "I hope we don't bump into that troll that they say is in these woods."




This sounds a lot like how I used to run D&D 2E, and is most likely how I am going to run WFRP eventually. Now that I think of it, ignoring balance probably lends itself to a more believable world -- something that looks like it goes well with the feeling of WFRP.


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## pawsplay (Jan 12, 2009)

I snapped up several books when I learned BI was shutting down and the books might be unavailable for a while. I've had Warhammer on the brain ever since then. I really love second edition. I do sort of have mixed feelings about Tzeentch's Curse, and I miss the Fimir, but the rules have been tightened up, the magical orders and cults dressed out, and the careers generally improved in quality.


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## Hella_Tellah (Jan 12, 2009)

I'm new to running WFRP, but the group's been _loving_ it.  I feel like the Tzeench's Curse table is a bit _too_ kind to arcane casters, though.  Most of them have only a cosmetic effect--hair standing on end, milk curdling, etc.  I'm coming from Mage: The Awakening, where Paradox is a really powerful limiting factor, so I was hoping for something a little more...caution-inducing.  Are the Tzeench tables in Realms of Sorcery sufficiently awesome to justify the purchase?


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## pawsplay (Jan 12, 2009)

I don't know if you've noticed this or not, but a bad roll on Tzeentch with even a minor spell could suck you into the void, summon demons, or mutate you.


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## Hella_Tellah (Jan 13, 2009)

pawsplay said:


> I don't know if you've noticed this or not, but a bad roll on Tzeentch with even a minor spell could suck you into the void, summon demons, or mutate you.




Yeah, but a roll that bad would be really, profoundly unlikely.  A 5% chance after a 5% chance after rolling doubles, itself not terribly likely.  I'm accustomed to magic being a lot more dangerous than that.  I mean, one of the Major manifestations is "gain 1 IP and get the opportunity to learn Dark Lore (Chaos)."  If I were playing a wizard, I'd have him sit in his laboratory and cast stuff all day hoping to get that result!

Mostly, though, I just think they're kind of dull.  1 wound to everyone within 30 yards?  Yawn.  Do the _Realms of Sorcery_ tables have more interesting effects?


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## pawsplay (Jan 13, 2009)

Expanded Minor Chaos Manifestation

77-80 Intestinal Rebellion: Your bowels move uncontrollably, soiling both your clothing and pride.

89-90 Kin Inconvenienced: Roll again on this table. Your closest living relative ... suffers the resulting effect, regardless of how far away he is.

Expanded Major Chaos Manifestation

29-32 Rag Doll: You spontaneously fly through the air 1d10 yards in a random direction, landing roughly...

Catastrophic Chaos Manifestation

33-36: Albino Affliction: Your skin and hair are bleached utterly white by roiling Chaos.

72-74 Eyefuse: You close as your eyes as the Winds of Magic howl about you, and your eyelids are fused shut. You cannot see until this is corrected by magic or surgery.


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## Hella_Tellah (Jan 13, 2009)

pawsplay said:


> Expanded Minor Chaos Manifestation
> 
> 77-80 Intestinal Rebellion: Your bowels move uncontrollably, soiling both your clothing and pride.
> 
> ...







​Those are _exactly_ the kinds of effects I was looking for.  I am going out to buy that book immediately!


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## pawsplay (Jan 13, 2009)

It also has some surprisingly robust rules for Witches and Warlocks, plus Dwarven rune craft, numerous new spells, and some half-way decent guidelines for developing new rituals. It's also a good read, and makes the very excellent suggestion that Journeymen Wizards take another career before advancing further. Not only does this help represent their "journeying" but purely from a practical standpoint it gives them the opportunity to acquire enough magical items to be a Master Wizard. 

The only disappointment I had was the hand-waving of Battle Magic and elven high magic. Maybe someday they'll make a Legends and Heroes sourcebook with that, plus fifth tier careers for warriors, scouts, and rogues.


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## Oni (Jan 13, 2009)

pawsplay said:


> Expanded Minor Chaos Manifestation
> 
> 77-80 Intestinal Rebellion: Your bowels move uncontrollably, soiling both your clothing and pride.




I think I'd rather my character's head exploded than crapped their pants, at least the former is cool.


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## Nebulous (Jan 13, 2009)

evilgenius8000 said:


> This sounds a lot like how I used to run D&D 2E, and is most likely how I am going to run WFRP eventually. Now that I think of it, ignoring balance probably lends itself to a more believable world -- something that looks like it goes well with the feeling of WFRP.




Yeah, when i run it i figure that "balance" can get thrown out the door.  While i appreciate the level of balance in 4e, at the same time it infuriates me.


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## Sen Udo-Mal (Jan 13, 2009)

Rel said:


> Or else just one Ulrick's Fury that rolls a couple 10's in a row.  Not likely but...ouch!




I just have to jump in an add here… 

We just ended a couple of months ago my almost two year long WHFRPG 2nd ed game. There were 4 players and they all had somewhere around 5,000XP at the end (I gave them 100-150 each session generally), so they were all in the 4th or 5th Careers and were major bad@$$ (they knew there were people more powerful then them, but they still faced a lot of stuff and came out on top. They were a Knight Panther, Master Wizard, ex-Scout/Explore, and Dwarf Champion). The climax of the campaign was them chasing a necromancer around for a couple of months, and finally trapping her in these sewers where they went out to destroy her once and for all. 

Well she had made some deal with a Ghoul King on the undercity and had some of his minions around to help protect her and they party charges down, confident of the outcome and were ambushed by a pack of 5 or 6 ghouls (just the regular ones, tough but for this group not to big a threat). Well second or so round of combat, one of the ghouls hits the Knight Panther (Toughness 42 or something in full-plate and 15 wounds) for 40 some points of damage due to Ulric’s Furry… dead Knight (or out knight as he still had one Fate Point to burn and survived). The battle really changed then, as the tougher foes protecting the necromancer then ganged up on the Wizard and the group ended up fleeing and allowing her to escape (with a nasty artifact). The game ended with her escaping on some pirate ship to the New World and the Vampire Coast. IF we ever pick that game up again the party will be pursuing her there. 

During the groups adventures they started out looking for lost sheep, faced goblins, orcs, a few skaven, beastmen, a minotaur, saw some trolls (did not fight them), more then a few undead, some chaos monsters, stopped a ritual to summon a daemon (got a glimpse of it, and one of the party members got lots of insanity for that), fought evil knights, guards, con man, one character almost drowned and lost all his brand new plate armor (as it was the only way he was going to swim to shore), and they even fought a really powerful vampire once but it ended in a draw… 

I really like WHFRPG. Right now I am running a WH40K – Dark Heresy game and it is a lot of fun also. There are aspects that I like a lot about both games and wish I could combine just those things together to make the game I want… but I am to lazy to really sit down and do it


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## Jasperak (Jan 13, 2009)

pawsplay said:


> Expanded Minor Chaos Manifestation
> 
> 77-80 Intestinal Rebellion: Your bowels move uncontrollably, soiling both your clothing and pride.
> 
> ...




I am new to WHFRG, can you provide a page reference please?


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## frankthedm (Jan 20, 2009)

Jasperak said:


> I am new to WHFRG, can you provide a page reference please?



The expanded tables for chaos manifestations are in the _Realms of Sorcery_ book. They show up twice, once somewhere in the book, another time in the back of the book.


Spoiler



img49.imageshack.us/img49/1213/tempmeeteeorfd4.png


BTW, have I mentioned the cone template feels very hard to use in WFRP 2E? It feels so puny considering most ways to use it take a full round or longer to kick off.


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## Jasperak (Jan 21, 2009)

frankthedm said:


> The expanded tables for chaos manifestations are in the _Realms of Sorcery_ book. They show up twice, once somewhere in the book, another time in the back of the book.




I am a tard. I was looking at the 1e version not the 2e. Thanks.


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## frankthedm (Jan 22, 2009)

Jasperak said:


> I was looking at the 1e version not the 2e. Thanks.



Not a problem. 1E looks to have its charm, though i definitely like the 2E Magic system overall.


Spoiler



img125.imageshack.us/img125/866/prettyfireflowerej2.png


BTW love your avatar. Fluffy puppies usually don't pull off the _small but visious dog_ look very well. But that one does hands down.


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## Jasperak (Jan 22, 2009)

Fluffy the Destroyer of Worlds | Funny UK Comedy


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## frankthedm (Jan 27, 2009)

pawsplay said:


> It also has some surprisingly robust rules for Witches and Warlocks, plus Dwarven rune craft, numerous new spells, and some half-way decent guidelines for developing new rituals. It's also a good read, and makes the very excellent suggestion that Journeymen Wizards take another career before advancing further. Not only does this help represent their "journeying" but purely from a practical standpoint it gives them the opportunity to acquire enough magical items to be a Master Wizard.



Definitely a good buy, even _if_ the gm has to eyeball things for powercreep. 







pawsplay said:


> The only disappointment I had was the hand-waving of Battle Magic and elven high magic. Maybe someday they'll make a Legends and Heroes sourcebook with that



  Something that might make use of those ginormous  W_40K Apocalypse_ templates? I like the Multi-Blast template for a Meteor bombardment like spell. The 16.5&" Super flamer would feel just right for some of the larger Mcfarlane Dragons 'minis'.


Spoiler



img145.imageshack.us/img145/7717/circle1blrg8.png img132.imageshack.us/img132/8836/circlesfn6.png




 

 
Flame design ripped by Grim and Bonsai



			
				Hella_Tellah said:
			
		

> I feel like the Tzeench's Curse table is a bit _too_ kind to arcane casters, though. Most of them have only a cosmetic effect--hair standing on end, milk curdling, etc.



Do keep in mind even a purely visual Tzeench's curse can be a big problem in a habited area since casting spells in many towns is frowned on by the law if not explicitly illegal eve for licensed Magisters. Also drinks being ruined also may [IMHO should] wreck many _Spell Ingredients_, _Healing Droughts_ and any _Best Quality Booze _those nearby had as treasure. And while many characters may be used to modestly spoiled food in WFRP, I doubt most PCs will risk slurping down _Tzeench's Cursed_ spoiled chow even in a starvation situation.

That said, maybe offer More Power[rar-rar-rar!] at a greater risk, Like maybe make a variant of the channeling test:
*
**Brave the gaze of Tzeench:** Free action* and a successful _*channelling test*_; This spell the Magister is casting has one _Magic Missile _upgraded to a _Small Template_[3"] or the spell has its template increased in size one step.
​_ Small Template_[3"] > _Large_ _Template_[5"] _>__Apocalyptic_ _Template_[7"].
 WFRP 2E Cone [8"] > WFRP 1E Cone [12"] > W40K Apocalyptic Cone [16.5"]
 
 Regardless if this channeling test succeeds or fails, any _Tzeench's curse_ result rolled is treated as one step more severe. A _Catastrophic Chaos Manifestation_ affected as such results in all within 1d10 yards suffering their own _Catastrophic Chaos Manifestation_. If all dice for the Casting roll read "9", a Minor_ Tzeench's Curse _occurs in addition to other effects.
​Just remember you want players _willing_ to cast spells, and level II curses [triples] can kill.


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## thedungeondelver (Feb 16, 2009)

I actually got to play (not GM) *WHFRP* last night.  We played 2nd edition, and after playing 1st I can say that the differences feel minimal.  I'd prefer variable dice rather than d10 all the time but that's just because I'm a sucker for variable granularity 

We played the scenario out of the back of the book, and for those of you unfamiliar with it, 



Spoiler



in brief the characters have to escort a group of refugees out of harm's way, with the chief problem being that one of the (very friendly, very useful, very helpful) NPCs is a revenge-minded old witch who will distract the party close to the end of the scenario.



I don't like to brag (much) but we managed to get the refugees to the city with no party casualties and a minimum of casualties among the NPCs.  My character, Manfred Kreuzwirth (yes, phpbb admins, there's a Chinese-based age-of-conan goldfarm spambot that has that as a login - but it's too cool a name to not use!), talked the 



Spoiler



witch


 down without incident.

We all gained one insanity point when we found a group of civvies that had been wiped out by Goblins, but that's about the worst we fared.

Our party consisted of myself (watchman), my wife ("Jane Carey", an outlaw human), and my buddy Jason's human noble, Johan (his last name escapes me).

My wife decided that, if she was able to continue to play (we've got kids and babysitting issues do arise), she wanted to go from outlaw to crime boss to courtier to noble, basically becoming a high-priced madam, insinuating herself into high society through various *ahem* contacts, and then buying/bribing/extorting her way in to the nobility.  When she said all that and thought about it for a minute, she said "Holy crap, this isn't an RPG character it's a fantasy novel!"

I think *WHFRP* is our new (second) favorite game ever.


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## frankthedm (Feb 16, 2009)

Now one issue with WFRP is the default area scale with combat maps or terrian is 1 inch  = 2 yards, which means combatants take up a good deal of space and building interiors are either quite cramped or the buildings are incredulously large. But on the other hand this also helps missile fire and magic from getting too much range. And helps keep combat from moving off the table.

I'm _considering_ dropping the scale to 1 inch=1 yard for more old 1E feel. [at least indoors] The previously mentioned Apocalypse templates would work well to also scale up the area effects inside.


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## Iron Sky (Feb 17, 2009)

Don't have much time to post, but I ran my first Fantasy game last week.

Randomly generated characters gave a human squire, a human camp follower(cook), and a halfling fisherman.  I used my roommate's Tarot deck plus a random Tarot-meanings website to generate nearby lands, nobles, and even the character's backstories(since we wipped it all up quick just before sitting down to play).  Enjoyed how that worked out.

For the actual game, they talked their way out of fighting some bandits, giving over their gold, then tried to ambush the bandits.  They failed their concealment checks horribly and had a nasty fight with a big bandit with an axe, a halfling with a bow, and a dwarf barely controlling a pair of big mangy wolfhounds.

The group's halfling was dropped by the bandit halfling, who fled.  The dwarven bandit's war dogs killed the squire's horse, then the squire killed the dwarf, causing one dog to attack the squire, the other to attack the bandit halfling.  The camp follower held off the axeman until the squire could kill the other dog and come help kill the axeman.  The bandit halfling injured the last dog and both fled into the woods.  Everyone in the group ended up heavily wounded.

They then tried to head to the next village and instead spent the next 3 days lost in the woods - during a blizzard.  After nearly starving and freezing to death, they found a partially built cathedral and were taken in by the Sigmar Lictor who was overseeing it.

Over-all, was pretty fun.  Nice change from our super-heroic 4e dnd fare to the gritty squabbling-in-the-mud, starving-to-death nobodies of Warhammer.


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## Rel (Feb 17, 2009)

Iron Sky said:


> They then tried to head to the next village and instead spent the next 3 days lost in the woods - during a blizzard.  After nearly starving and freezing to death, they found a partially built cathedral and were taken in by the Sigmar Lictor who was overseeing it.
> 
> Over-all, was pretty fun.  Nice change from our super-heroic 4e dnd fare to the gritty squabbling-in-the-mud, starving-to-death nobodies of Warhammer.




You're doing it exactly right.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Feb 17, 2009)

Rel said:


> You're doing it exactly right.




I agree.


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## wolff96 (Feb 17, 2009)

I'm just starting a new campaign with a group who have played nothing but D&D before.  We're heading towards the "Enemy Within" campaign, which I love.  Sure, it's got a few warts, but it's still one of the greatest module-series I have ever read/run/played in.

Anyway, my players had some crazy dice when creating characters:  We've got an elven apprentice wizard (who STILL has yet to cast a spell), a human burgher who is the party diplomat, a human protagonist who wants to be a witch-hunter, a human Initiate of Sigmar, and a disgraced Dwarven Pitfighter determined to sell his life dear as a Slayer.  It's the *least* scummy group of new characters I've ever seen!  The Protagonist started with a horse, by Sigmar's Hammer!

I ran them through a Warhammer-modified version of "Death in Freeport", so they've got a few advances under their belts.  (For reference, the campaign has been running for three weeks now.)

--------------------------------------------

Anyway, I just had to post about what happened Saturday.  The pitfighter has been trying to get a match scheduled for a while and managed to set one up with (sight unseen) a big sailor off a ship that just came into port.  The pit they were fighting in had a 'no-deaths' rule from previous trouble with the guards, so it was pure fisticuffs for the night.

Once the fight was set up and the odds were set, the Burgher and Protagonist did a bit of rumor-mongering to talk up the dwarf and try to tilt the odds.  They also found out a few things about his opponent.  "Big Pete", by rumor, was a Norscan Raider turned pirate who once ripped the head off a bear with his empty hands.  He was seven feet tall and had never lost a match.  (Granted, that was a *tad* exaggerated...)

Based on the rumors, the party made a few bets... the burgher and the elf bet heavily on the dwarfen underdog, while the protagonist decided the bookies must know something and put FIVE CROWNS on the highly-favored Norscan.

The dwarf gets into the pit and finds himself up against a 6'8" Norscan who has way more reach than he does and was nearly as strong.  The two got right to fighting, beating on each other with their bare hands.  The dwarf -- using his wrestling skills -- took down the Norscan a few times, but the bigger man always managed to escape.  By the time the fight had been going for *six minutes*, both combatants were bloodied and battered, though the dwarf had taken the worst of it.  (Two wounds left for the raider versus zero left for the dwarf.)

The human came in like a battering ram, hammering the dwarf with both fists and dislocating his shoulder ('paralyzed arm until medical treatment' result).  The dwarf pushed himself up with his good arm and came back at him, raining down blows that the big man fended off.  The big Norscan kicked the dwarf across the ring, cracking ribs and winding the tough fighter.  ('Winded, all actions -30' result).  The dwarf dropped into a defensive stance until he could get his breath back and fended off the big man's attacks.  As soon as he could breathe again, the dwarf charged in low, grabbed the human's leg and lifted him clean off the ground before *slamming* him into the wall of the pit, knocking him cold.  (The dwarf triggered Ulric's Fury, confirmed, and ended up doing SEVENTEEN wounds to a guy with 2 left...)

As the battered, bloodied, and hurt dwarf took in the shouting crowd, one voice could be heard wailing above the rest of the crowd -- that of Hanz the Protagonist crying out "It was a good bet!  The dwarf just got lucky!  It was a *good* bet!"

--------------------------------------------

It was a *great* fight and by the end of it the rest of the players were literally cheering on their favored fighter!  It was in doubt all the way to the very end, with a grand total of FORTY-THREE ROUNDS of combat between dwarf and human.  They connected most rounds, but parries and innate toughness -- combined with horrible damage rolls -- kept the fight going.

Three voices were cheering every good roll of the dwarf, while BOOING at the norscan raider, with one dissenting voice going the other way.  I was worried that it would be boring for the other players -- one reason I had been putting off an actual pit-fight for the dwarf -- but I couldn't have been more wrong.  It's been quite a while since I've had so many players so into their characters.  The next door neighbors actually came over and asked us to quiet down our party.


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## Rel (Feb 17, 2009)

That sounds like a hell of a fun time.  Congrats!


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## Donovan Morningfire (Feb 26, 2009)

*WFRP Live Play*

If anyone's interested, there's a special installment of the Small but Vicious podcast to be found here:

D20 Radio Presents: Small but Viscious Roleplay in WFRP - d20radio.com

It's a 2+ hour recording of a WFRP play session, with the players being veritable newbs to the system, and will give folks a pretty good handle on how the system runs.

I haven't gotten the chance to listen to whole thing (only the first 50 minutes or so).  Just be forewarned that one of the players is more than a little silly (intentionally so) which will seem starkly at odds with the general feel and mood of the 'hammerverse.


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## the_bruiser (Feb 28, 2009)

I have the WHFRP core book and am pretty interested in learning more about this game.  So I read it and then went to google to see what's out there.  I found FFG, Black Industries, etc., and a few sites that had boards, but nothing even 2% like Enworld (I was hoping for at least 25%, though maybe even that is a stretch).  No excel-based character sheet templates, no people rating relative career strengths and weakness, comparing adventures, none of the analytical discussions that I like to see, that's just how I tend to learn about games.

For you WHFRP fans out there, what online resources do you use for this game?  Is there a 'core' board that is the primary online message/resource?  I'm sure something is out there, I just didn't come across it in my fifteen minutes of browsing.


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## thedungeondelver (Feb 28, 2009)

the_bruiser said:


> I have the WHFRP core book and am pretty interested in learning more about this game.  So I read it and then went to google to see what's out there.  I found FFG, Black Industries, etc., and a few sites that had boards, but nothing even 2% like Enworld (I was hoping for at least 25%, though maybe even that is a stretch).  No excel-based character sheet templates, no people rating relative career strengths and weakness, comparing adventures, none of the analytical discussions that I like to see, that's just how I tend to learn about games.
> 
> For you WHFRP fans out there, what online resources do you use for this game?  Is there a 'core' board that is the primary online message/resource?  I'm sure something is out there, I just didn't come across it in my fifteen minutes of browsing.





I have the Excel character generator for *WARHAMMER FANTASY ROLE PLAY* - email me at thedungeondelver@hotmail.com and I will send it to you.


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## Donovan Morningfire (Feb 28, 2009)

the_bruiser said:


> For you WHFRP fans out there, what online resources do you use for this game?  Is there a 'core' board that is the primary online message/resource?  I'm sure something is out there, I just didn't come across it in my fifteen minutes of browsing.



See the link I posted above for part 1 of a recorded play session with the players being veritable newbs at the game.  Only thing really not touched on is magic usage, as the one magic user (a Hedge Wizard) has wisely chosen not to fling magic around.

Also, there is the Small But Vicious Podcast itself, the first couple episodes of which deals with various crunch aspects of the game itself.  Oldscool (the GM) is pretty knowledgable about WFRP in general, and the casts are designed to help folks such as yourself that have never played WFRP.

And for those interested, part 2 of SBV's recorded play session as been posted, and can be snagged directly from right here.


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