# Star Wars: Credo of the Grey Jedi . . . I chose something else!



## Erekose (Jul 14, 2006)

I'm not sure any one else will find this funny but this is a response I came up with when one of my player's wondered aloud what the children of Leia and Han would be like . . .

*Credo of the Grey Jedi* 

Choose the Light side. Choose the Dark side. Choose a monastic lifestyle. Choose a spirit crushing one. Choose all-in-one white robes with matching lightsabre.  Choose a black leather battlesuit and a big cloak. Choose a group of nice friends. Choose to dominate them. Choose a small fighter shaped like an X. Choose a small moon capable of destroying a whole planet. Choose intergalactic fights with mindless clones. Choose crushing weakling rebels. Choose DIY starship engineering and wondering who you are when faced with your evil father on Besbin’s Cloud City. Choose sitting in that Super Star Destroyer mindlessly vaporizing the rebel fleet with carefree abandon. Choose a happy ending, watching your sister marry your best friend while you’re hailed saviour of the galaxy. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, dying on yet another blasted Death Star, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish clones that followed you. Choose Light. Choose Dark. But who would want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose either: I chose something else.


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## andrew_kenrick (Jul 14, 2006)

That's immense!   

And beyond the joke, it's a great idea too. Is there a middle ground between the Light and the Dark?


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## Donovan Morningfire (Jul 14, 2006)

andrew_kenrick said:
			
		

> And beyond the joke, it's a great idea too. Is there a middle ground between the Light and the Dark?



Nope.  Light and Dark.  Good and Evil.  The ends never justify the means.

NJO tried to introduce the concept of "no real dark side," but that's quickly being debunked as it's primary advocate, Jacen, is on the fast track to the dark side per the latest SW novel, and Luke even called his nephew on it in prior books.

As a long time player and GM of Star Wars, I've always despised the "grey jedi" concept, as 9.9 times out of 10 it's just an excuse to use the uber-kewl Dark Side powers without suffering Dark Side Points.

Sorry if I'm ranting, but I really am sick of this "Grey Jedi" nonsense.  Being a Jedi is a lot more than just some funky powers, a big glowing beatstick, and no consequences, which is what most Grey Jedi concepts boil down to being.


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## Erekose (Jul 14, 2006)

andrew_kenrick said:
			
		

> That's immense!




Thanks Andrew!   

As for the Grey Jedi concept, I'm not familiar with any of the books (just the films) but I suspect Donovan is right. Just good or evil. However I suspect that still leaves a little room for 95% good with 5% naughty!  My take on a Grey Jedi is not so much someone who gets the best of both worlds (in terms of Jedi powers) but someone who only get the powers of the Light side but is a little less than ideal in terms of temperament.

As an aside, compared to the stale, unemotional, rigid jedi order of the new trilogy I suspect Luke would be considered a "failed" jedi as he is in touch with his emotions. And yet IMHO he is the best of the lot; his compassion and love for his friends transcends the jedi ideal and makes him more human and therefore more heroic. Only Luke could see the good (the Anakin) in Darth Vader and save him from himself; and thereby bring down the Emperor.

It would be a shame if, in the books, Luke is depicted as a jedi of the old order rather than the jedi he was protrayed as being in the original trilogy.


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## Stormborn (Jul 14, 2006)

Donovan Morningfire said:
			
		

> Nope.  Light and Dark.  Good and Evil.  The ends never justify the means.
> 
> NJO tried to introduce the concept of "no real dark side," but that's quickly being debunked as it's primary advocate, Jacen, is on the fast track to the dark side per the latest SW novel, and Luke even called his nephew on it in prior books.
> 
> ...





You are right, to a degree.  The question is not so much is their a middle path between the Light and the Dark, its whether or not you can serve the Light without being a "Jedi" as such.  To me the Jedi order as we see it in the Old Republic represents the dominant philosophy about the Force, with the Sith as its counter.  That does not mean, however, that a Force user with the same level abilities as a Sith or Jedi cannot exist.  That would be, to me, a great idea for some out of the way campaign setting in the SW universe.  A small planet or system, or sector even, protected by an extended network, maybe a clan, of Force using Guardians.  They are the true balanced way of the Force, not the reactionary and self absorbed Sith or Jedi.  Perhaps it is the destiny of a Skywalker to find them.


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## Rhun (Jul 14, 2006)

If you look at it from the expanded universe, and include things such as the KotOR games, there is certainly a "middle ground." In the 2nd game, one of your companions (the Jedi Kreia) is continuously trying to teach you a balance between the light and dark side.


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## Ace32 (Jul 14, 2006)

Rhun said:
			
		

> If you look at it from the expanded universe, and include things such as the KotOR games, there is certainly a "middle ground." In the 2nd game, one of your companions (the Jedi Kreia) is continuously trying to teach you a balance between the light and dark side.




Kreia is a perfect example of a 'grey' stance being a road to the dark side. After all, 



Spoiler



she is the main dark side villain


.


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## Wystan (Jul 14, 2006)

KOTOR Spoiler But doesn't Keira [sblock] turn out to be one of the Sith masterminds in that game?[/sblock]


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## HeapThaumaturgist (Jul 14, 2006)

As I said constantly in my own StarWars games ...

*"The Force is much like a turkey.  You have the Light meat and the Dark meat.  There is no Grey Meat.*

All the available source material seems to suggest that a balance is impossible to maintain.  There's 'something' about the Dark Side of the Force that corrupts.  One day you kick a puppy ... normal guy, that's okay.  Force user?  A week later you're slaughtering kids in a school and helping Darth Dastardly take over the known universe by killing all of your friends.  No clue why.

--fje


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Jul 14, 2006)

The reason that there is no 'balance' is because there aren't actually two SIDES.

Look at it like this:

The Light side IS the Force. It isn't good...but it isn't bad, either. Its just the natural state of the Force. 

The Dark Side is a CORRUPTION of the natural state. It isn't another side, but instead, much more like a disease of sorts. Its the reason for the unnatural effects it has on life and things around it(including the Force itself).


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## Erekose (Jul 14, 2006)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> The reason that there is no 'balance' is because there aren't actually two SIDES.
> 
> Look at it like this:
> 
> ...




This sounds like the best explanation so far. Although as I said originally, Luke is a much better illustration of the Force as opposed to the aesthetics in Episodes 1-3. Although it makes sense that their collective "fear" of turning to the Dark side might well be their rationalisation of abandonment of emotion. i.e. if you feel nothing then how can you be tempted/seduced by anger, fear, aggression . . .


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## kenobi65 (Jul 14, 2006)

Erekose said:
			
		

> This sounds like the best explanation so far. Although as I said originally, Luke is a much better illustration of the Force as opposed to the aesthetics in Episodes 1-3.




Or "ascetics", even...though I understand that Mace Windu enjoyed interior design in his spare time.


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## Erekose (Jul 14, 2006)

kenobi65 said:
			
		

> Or "ascetics", even...though I understand that Mace Windu enjoyed interior design in his spare time.




Oops!  

Well . . . we all make mistakes . . . as the Dalek said climbing off the dustbin!   

[Sorry - old joke]


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## bluegodjanus (Jul 14, 2006)

andrew_kenrick said:
			
		

> Is there a middle ground between the Light and the Dark?




What? Did I hear somebody wondering about a more balanced view of the Force? Somebody wishing they didn't have to choose yin or yang, but could be the whole circle? Try the Order of the Grey.


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## Darrin Drader (Jul 23, 2006)

I believe that there is a middle ground that can be maintained for a while, but ultimately the force user must choose light or dark. Mara Jade is the perfect example of one who started gray and ended up light.


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## Dagger75 (Jul 23, 2006)

Whisperfoot said:
			
		

> I believe that there is a middle ground that can be maintained for a while, but ultimately the force user must choose light or dark. Mara Jade is the perfect example of one who started gray and ended up light.




 She was a Dark Jedi who turned to the light side.  She is the WORST example.  It is either Light or Dark.  I agree people who want to play "grey" jedi are just munchkins wanting to use dark side powers with out the dark side points.  If you are looking for a loophole to justify your actions, guess what, thats the dark side.


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## Dragonhelm (Jul 23, 2006)

If memory serves, the Jensaari from _I, Jedi _ (and mentioned in Star Wars Gamer at some point) are good examples of "grey Jedi."  I want to say they blended both Jedi and Sith techniques, though it has been a while.


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## Falkus (Jul 23, 2006)

KOTOR 2 spoilers

[sblock]


> turn out to be one of the Sith masterminds in that game?




That's doing the character a disservice, her motivations were much more complex than that. She was neither Sith, nor Jedi, she disavowed both philosophies as being flawed and overly dependant on the force.
[/sblock]


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## Plane Sailing (Jul 24, 2006)

HeapThaumaturgist said:
			
		

> All the available source material seems to suggest that a balance is impossible to maintain.  There's 'something' about the Dark Side of the Force that corrupts.  One day you kick a puppy ... normal guy, that's okay.  Force user?  A week later you're slaughtering kids in a school and helping Darth Dastardly take over the known universe by killing all of your friends.  No clue why.
> 
> --fje




Excellent analysis, HT! An explanation for the precipitate fall of Anakin in Ep 3 *does* exist after all!


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## Taraxia (Jul 24, 2006)

The Force multiplies everything. It's like being high on drugs. It fills you up with life force and magnifies your ability to perceive the emotional content of everything.

Meditate, and get peaceful, and feel at one with the universe, and you get *really* peaceful and *really* at one with the universe, to the point that you can endure incredible pain and sense split-second motion with sharp clarity and all that crap. Do something good for the right reasons and the feeling of satisfaction of being good is immense and incredibly powerful -- Jedi who lose themselves in this reverie and really let themselves stay in the zone can act on autopilot for days, just following their instinctive "This is the Right Thing to Do" intuition. An ordinary good person has a *bit* of peace and harmony and all that crap and that's why they seem nicer and happier than plain old un-good jerks, but the Jedi have that times ten thousand.

Spin it around in the opposite direction for Sith. Ordinary guy kicks a puppy? He feels a little tiny adrenaline rush, but it fades. Sith kicks a puppy? The sense of overwhelming power and joy at having exercised power against another living thing is enormous. He can feel other people's pain, and if he lets himself he can convert it into pleasure. Ordinary jerk might laugh a little bit to see someone he doesn't like trip and fall -- Dark Jedi *feels* the pain, and where Light Jedi feels the pain and shares it and finds it intolerable and must go help the poor guy, Dark Jedi feels the pain and revels in the fact that it's someone else's and is filled with orgasmic spasmodic twitchiness over it. Before you know it all that twitchiness is manifesting itself as deformed skin and maniacal laughter and blasting shooting lightning bolts coming out the wazoo.

For Jedi, ordinary emotional experiences are like mainlining drugs. You can mainline good, happy drugs that make you peaceful and calm, or bad, nasty drugs that make you scream and smash things. But keep a "balance" between the two? Nuh uh. It's like shooting up meth and then shooting up heroin and hoping that because one's a stimulant and one's a narcotic they'll cancel out and leave you a normal person. Doesn't really work.

(Note that I think the mistake of the Jedi Council wasn't in trying to shut out the Dark Side, but trying to shut out everything that could *lead* to the Dark Side as well. Luke never embraced the Dark Side, but he embraced emotion while not letting the emotion serve as a conduit to the Dark Side. In other words, he was capable of blissing out on shrooms indoors while still going outside once in a while for a jog, without needing to shoot up meth to give himself the energy to do so.)

(I apologize for the non-family-friendliness of this metaphor. I am 100% clean in real life, I swear.)


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## Taraxia (Jul 24, 2006)

Falkus said:
			
		

> KOTOR 2 spoilers
> 
> [sblock]
> 
> ...




Well...

[sblock]
Kreia is the equivalent of that stock character from movies like Requiem for a Dream, the drug addict who's been on so many different illegal drugs and medications over the years that now none of them really work at all anymore, she has to take a dozen illegal substances just to function and she spends all her time twitching, drooling and swearing at everyone around her because her brain just doesn't work right anymore and reacts badly to *all* drugs.

I'd still call her more Sith than Jedi -- just as Atton said, her *attitude* is still pretty Sith (I want to feel and experience everything I can, and damn the costs) even if she's rejected the Sith themselves, out of a kind of nihilistic apathy more than anything else.[/sblock]


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## hobgoblin (Jul 24, 2006)

hmm, there is allways kyle katarn (or whatever his name was).
in jedi outcast one can pull from both dark and light powers, without forgoing the other.

to me a gray jedi isnt one that wants to take the best of both without the penaltys. but one that see that somtimes, one do have to dip into the dark side. question is, can you pull out before its to late. can you take up some points and then retreat to atone for them later on?

its kinda like a person that can take drugs without developing a habbit/addiction. because thats what the dark side can be seen to be, an addiction. an addiction to power. and as the saying goes, power corrupts.

in that way the title gray jedi is a bad one. failed jedi may be more correct as they fail to uphold the jedi code. yet they are not sith either, as the sith is a very limited club (a master and an aprentice after the war). in many ways its a force user that have taken up their own path, like a pioneer walking out into unknown territory.

sometimes i wish star wars or religion was proven right, that there is some entity or force out there that judge your actions based on a system of pure right and wrong.


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## Donovan Morningfire (Jul 25, 2006)

One common thread I'm seeing in the "Grey Jedi Exist!" posts is they are predominantly drawing from one source ... video games.

Not movies, not novels, but video games.  In the order of canonicity, they're typically at the bottom of the barrel.

Star Wars video games are more about doing "all the cool stuff you see in the films/books."  Shooting lightning from your fingertips (or other body part if your a Scottish folk hero) is part of that "cool stuff" package, hence it can be used.

Kyle Katarn was part of a FPS series of games, which are more about killing bad guys in new and interesting ways, so of course they were going to let the players unleash dark side powers without presumably "going dark."

Knights of the Old Republic, which I really enjoyed, again took a slightly skewed stance on Dark/Light Side Force "powers" in that you didn't have to be a Dark Sider to use Dark Side powers, but that if you were a "Light Sider" then using stuff like Force Choke and Force Lightning were a lot harder (i.e. cost more Force/mana to use).

Ankh-Morpork Guard hit the nail right on the head, since that's the viewpoint espoused by George Lucas, the brainchild of this whole thing; you're either part of the solution (working in tune with the Will of the Force), or part of the problem (Dark Side/corrupting influence on the Force).  Anyone claiming "middle ground" is decieving themselves, and an "ends justifying the means" approach worked out real well for a chap by the name of Anakin Skywalker.

Sorry of the rant, but this whole Grey Jedi nonsense really irks me.  To be blunt, it stinks to me of munchkinism/uber-powergaming.


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## Falkus (Jul 25, 2006)

Taraxia said:
			
		

> Well...
> [sblock]
> Kreia is the equivalent of that stock character from movies like Requiem for a Dream, the drug addict who's been on so many different illegal drugs and medications over the years that now none of them really work at all anymore, she has to take a dozen illegal substances just to function and she spends all her time twitching, drooling and swearing at everyone around her because her brain just doesn't work right anymore and reacts badly to *all* drugs.
> 
> I'd still call her more Sith than Jedi -- just as Atton said, her *attitude* is still pretty Sith (I want to feel and experience everything I can, and damn the costs) even if she's rejected the Sith themselves, out of a kind of nihilistic apathy more than anything else.[/sblock]




[sblock]What exactly are you talking about?

And actually, her attitude was more along the lines that helping people was to weaken them. People have to face their problems on their own if they wish to gain strength and grow, and that holding their hands just prevents them from achieving their full potential. A point of view that is worthy of some consideration. The Sith are about gaining power for the sake of power, a view Kreia didn't follow.

And you do realize that her ultimate goal was to destroy the force?[/sblock]



> Not movies, not novels, but video games. In the order of canonicity, they're typically at the bottom of the barrel.




Actually, you're one hundred percent wrong about this. A game bearing the Star Wars label is considered to be just as canon as any of the EU novels.



> Sorry of the rant, but this whole Grey Jedi nonsense really irks me. To be blunt, it stinks to me of munchkinism/uber-powergaming.




And the whole idea of dark side powers strikes me as idiocy. Why is it okay to cut off a guy's limbs with your lightsaber, but if you zap him with force lightning, you're on the path to the dark side?


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Jul 25, 2006)

Falkus said:
			
		

> [sblock]What exactly are you talking about?
> 
> And actually, her attitude was more along the lines that helping people was to weaken them. People have to face their problems on their own if they wish to gain strength and grow, and that holding their hands just prevents them from achieving their full potential. A point of view that is worthy of some consideration. The Sith are about gaining power for the sake of power, a view Kreia didn't follow.
> 
> ...



1) Just running around and cutting down people isn't light side, either. You need to be on the defense.
2) Well, no real person can actually zap people with force lightnings - but since it is a mystical ability: What if to use it, you really had to channel all your hate and anger - it's not just that you summon a few charged particles, you have to use your (negative) emotions to activate this power. That is a considerable difference to swinging a light saber, which is more about technique and perception, but doesn't require special emotional involvement.


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## Falkus (Jul 25, 2006)

> 2) Well, no real person can actually zap people with force lightnings - but since it is a mystical ability: What if to use it, you really had to channel all your hate and anger - it's not just that you summon a few charged particles, you have to use your (negative) emotions to activate this power. That is a considerable difference to swinging a light saber, which is more about technique and perception, but doesn't require special emotional involvement.




That seems somewhat arbitrary.


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## hobgoblin (Jul 25, 2006)

the more one reads up on any light vs dark belief system, one will find that they are quite arbitrary when streched. you can see that when anakin is asked to spy, and him stating that its against all that the jedi have tought him so far.

there is a reason why real life laws seperate between hurting or killing by accident, and doing the same with planing or while otherwise in control of the outcome. sure, if said accident could be prevented by taking some extra time, your punched harder then if it happend out of the blue (of your punished at all in the latter case).

so its a matter of intent.

but one cant argue with the force, so dont try to pull a force lightning and then come and say that you where only planing to scare the person. a mind trick or crushing a object next to him as a demonstration of your powers would be just as effective and not having any risk of hurting the person. the latter may well be on the edge of the dark side btw (obi-wan may well have used to former against the sand people)...


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## Falkus (Jul 25, 2006)

> but one cant argue with the force, so dont try to pull a force lightning and then come and say that you where only planing to scare the person. a mind trick or crushing a object next to him as a demonstration of your powers would be just as effective and not having any risk of hurting the person.




Hypothetically: I'm a jedi, and I've come up against a squad of assassin robots who are about to kill a whole bunch of innocent civilians. I know that this praticular model of robot has a layer of corotis ore in their armor, rendering them mostly immune to light sabers, but they are also highly vulnerable to electricity. I only have a few seconds to act. Are you going to tell me that by using force lightning to destroy the droids and save the innocent people would be going towards the dark side?


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Jul 25, 2006)

Falkus said:
			
		

> Hypothetically: I'm a jedi, and I've come up against a squad of assassin robots who are about to kill a whole bunch of innocent civilians. I know that this praticular model of robot has a layer of corotis ore in their armor, rendering them mostly immune to light sabers, but they are also highly vulnerable to electricity. I only have a few seconds to act. Are you going to tell me that by using force lightning to destroy the droids and save the innocent people would be going towards the dark side?



 Yes.

Why?

Because there are other ways to do it. Yes, it will still likely require some kind of physical/Force action on your part, but Lightning should NEVER be the first option for a Jedi(or anyone claiming to follow the Light).

Again, the Dark Side is not evil...it is Corruption. It is not how the Force is SUPPOSED to be, and therefore, any use, no matter the justification, is wrong.

Also, it should be mentioned that its important to remember that Jedi and Sith are not synonomous with Light Side and Dark Side.


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## DarkKestral (Jul 26, 2006)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Yes.
> 
> Why?
> 
> Because there are other ways to do it. Yes, it will still likely require some kind of physical/Force action on your part, but Lightning should NEVER be the first option for a Jedi(or anyone claiming to follow the Light).




Oddly, Yoda's used Force Lightning as a first method of attack himself in one or two of the movies, as far as I recall. Plus, I think that he's considered one of the ultimate "Masters of the Light Side" in the entire canon. Therefore, it stands to reason that Jedi can use Force Lightning in the right situations. Most typically, in a situation where electricity is needed. Such as.. destroying heavily armored droids that are resistant to lightsaber damage.

More technically, a light-side user simply submits to the Force, but a dark-side user makes it submit to their will. That's the only listed difference. Most Dark Side users are evil, but there are Dark Jedi who abandon the Jedi laws against using the Dark Side. There aren't any listed Light Side Sith, necessarily, but the concept of Light and Dark can be a bit more neutral. I consider it more Creation/Destruction rather than Good/Evil or Natural/Corruption. Light-Side users tend to do more creating of things; Dark-Side users tend to focus more heavily on destruction. This means that Light users will band together more often, as they are more willing to create a larger entity, but Dark users tend to fracture, as their tendencies towards destruction cause problems for organization. (However, they are perfectly OK with ruling non-Force-sensitives) When they don't split apart, they tend to get involved in internecine infighting and politics. (All of the known Sith seem to do this)

I would argue the Natural/Corruption goes on in terms of the Yuuzhan Vong. Contrast the Force-sensitive races that remain somewhat in their 'natural' state vs. the Vong, who can't use the Force at all, and 'corrupt' everything they touch with biological weapons.


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## hobgoblin (Jul 26, 2006)

hmm, i never recall yoda using force lightning. but then again i have only watched either of the new movies 1 time iirc.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Jul 26, 2006)

DarkKestral said:
			
		

> Oddly, Yoda's used Force Lightning as a first method of attack himself in one or two of the movies, as far as I recall. Plus, I think that he's considered one of the ultimate "Masters of the Light Side" in the entire canon. Therefore, it stands to reason that Jedi can use Force Lightning in the right situations. Most typically, in a situation where electricity is needed. Such as.. destroying heavily armored droids that are resistant to lightsaber damage.




What you're thinking of was not him using Force Lightning, but reflecting it and absorbing it. Not once does Yoda actually produce it himself.

And Force Lightning is not actually electricity. It is the Force, corrupted and manipulated to cause pain/harm.

If electricity is necessary to down droids, rip a nearby powersource with the Force and hit them with THAT. Or Force Push. Or even use a blaster. There are many, many options, and a Jedi(or any person considering themself a Light Sider) should never, ever resort to any of the Dark Side skills.



> More technically, a light-side user simply submits to the Force, but a dark-side user makes it submit to their will. That's the only listed difference. Most Dark Side users are evil, but there are Dark Jedi who abandon the Jedi laws against using the Dark Side. There aren't any listed Light Side Sith, necessarily, but the concept of Light and Dark can be a bit more neutral. I consider it more Creation/Destruction rather than Good/Evil or Natural/Corruption. Light-Side users tend to do more creating of things; Dark-Side users tend to focus more heavily on destruction. This means that Light users will band together more often, as they are more willing to create a larger entity, but Dark users tend to fracture, as their tendencies towards destruction cause problems for organization. (However, they are perfectly OK with ruling non-Force-sensitives) When they don't split apart, they tend to get involved in internecine infighting and politics. (All of the known Sith seem to do this)




Exactly why Light Side =/= Jedi and Dark Sider =/= Sith. However, it is very well defined in all of Star Wars lore that even a small amount of Dark Side use is corrupting...even if it takes time.

And there are actually many cases of Dark Jedi working together. See the ancient Sith Empire before the Battle of Ruusan. An Empire of 'true' Sith, all with Dark Side abilities. The reason you don't see this later is because of the problems that developed from multiple powerhungry Sith after the Battle of Ruusan...which is when Darth Bane started the "Rule of Two". So, if there's only two 'true' Sith, then there aren't many to band together.

As for Dark Siders in general, there really aren't many overall. But they do tend to develop in cults of sorts, so its still very group based...but there's definitely more backstabbing, etc involved.



> I would argue the Natural/Corruption goes on in terms of the Yuuzhan Vong. Contrast the Force-sensitive races that remain somewhat in their 'natural' state vs. the Vong, who can't use the Force at all, and 'corrupt' everything they touch with biological weapons.





The Vong is actually an entirely different situation.

If you've finished the NJO then you know that 



Spoiler



the Vong had the Force taken from them by Zonoma Sekot...much like Nomi Sunrider stripped Ulic Qel'Droma of the Force in the old Tales of the Jedi comics.



They aren't a corrupting influence on their own, and their technology is not actually evil or Dark Side at all. Instead...its nothing. The lack of Dark OR Light. i.e. An enitirely different thing.


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## Taraxia (Jul 27, 2006)

Falkus said:
			
		

> [sblock]What exactly are you talking about?
> 
> And actually, her attitude was more along the lines that helping people was to weaken them. People have to face their problems on their own if they wish to gain strength and grow, and that holding their hands just prevents them from achieving their full potential. A point of view that is worthy of some consideration. The Sith are about gaining power for the sake of power, a view Kreia didn't follow.
> 
> And you do realize that her ultimate goal was to destroy the force?[/sblock]




[sblock]I was making a stupid drug-based analogy to try to explain what Kreia's Grey Jedi powers derive from and how she herself "reads" in terms of Light Side/Dark Side balance. Frankly I think she was always more Dark than Light -- more Darth Traya -- all along, but she was able to keep that cloaked using her mastery of mental manipulation.

And yeah, she wants to destroy the Force, or allow the Exile to break free of the Force's control and from there let the Force be destroyed, or... or... *something*. It's not entirely clear. KotOR 2 is a game with much of its ending text removed. She wants to destroy the Force entirely because she's had such bad experiences with *all* manifestations of Force power. The Light Side and the Dark Side -- she's burned out on them both. She wants negation, freedom. A la a drug addict who's gone past being able to feel euphoria from any sort of drug use and has begun to become self-destructive and despair-filled because they've destroyed their ability to experience any pleasurable sensation at all.

As for the "people face things on their own, bla bla bla", that's clearly more a Sith than a Jedi philosophy. Geez, Atton Rand comes out and says it at the end of the game, and as a former Sith Assassin he really ought to know. She's not a "true" Sith -- she doesn't work for the typical Sith goal of purely increasing one's power -- but that doesn't make her not Dark. She describes herself as Darth Traya, the Betrayer, and names Betrayal as her own greatest attribute.

After all, the point of the KotOR 2 era is that the regular Sith, under Revan and Malak, are gone, and we've got *new* Sith who follow strange, self-destructive philosophies. Darth Nihilus wants nothing but to suck up all life into himself and leave the whole universe dead. Darth Sion wants nothing but to torture and cause suffering for the sake of causing pain -- himself so filled with pain and torment that the only pleasure he can feel is from spite. And Darth Traya wants to destroy the Force itself -- and her own power and, ultimately, herself with it -- out of a sheer emotional desire to destroy the purpose and meaning and interconnectedness the Force provides in order to establish her brand of "freedom". (Does she know for sure severing the Force through echoes on the large scale won't kill everyone, or plunge everyone into a deep depression, or create a future of endless war and suffering? No. But she's willing to take the risk just because she hates the Force so much.)[/sblock]



> Actually, you're one hundred percent wrong about this. A game bearing the Star Wars label is considered to be just as canon as any of the EU novels.




Yes and no. Canon is fuzzy in a game if for no other reason than that it's interactive, and each player's play experience creates a different order of events, not all of which can be the canonical one. At the very basic level, Revan's sex and whether Revan turned to the Dark or the Light are quite fundamental facts in the history of the Star Wars universe (since they determine whether Revan was Bastila's or Carth's lover, etc.), and yet after playing both games all you can say about either of those is that they're "indeterminate".



> And the whole idea of dark side powers strikes me as idiocy. Why is it okay to cut off a guy's limbs with your lightsaber, but if you zap him with force lightning, you're on the path to the dark side?




Then the whole idea of the Force, and many of the basic assumptions of Star Wars, strike you as idiocy.

The point of the Force is that it *is* mystical and tied directly to one's emotions and one's psychological state. It isn't just another kind of "science", a simple physical force you can control. There are some manifestations of the Force directly linked to positive mental states -- empathy, calm, compassion -- and some that are directly linked to negative ones -- anger, hatred, schadenfreude, spite. The manifestation of Force Lightning is clearly the latter. (Keep in mind that it *is* so strongly linked to the Dark Side that, according to the novelizations, the Jedi of the prequel era, and Luke in the OT, were *shocked* and *terrified* to see the Force Lightning -- they didn't even know it was possible, because it involved using mental states they weren't aware of. Long-lived Yoda, who'd seen earlier eras when the Dark Side was stronger, was the exception.)


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## Corvidae (Aug 2, 2006)

Power, adventure, a jedi craves not these things

In my opinion, choosing not to follow the light side is the path to the dark side. Desiring the powers that the dark side has is immediately a path to the dark side.  A jedi is meant to seperate himself or herself from desire, and especially desire for power, so desiring the powers of the dark side would immediately draw the jedi to the dark side.

In addition, not making a decision, IS a decision.  Even if you wanted to walk the line, you would not be choosing good, and therefore you would be moving toward the darkside.  This is with some philosophy that evil alone does not exist, it is simply the absence of good, like dark is not a thing, but rather is the absence of light.

So there is no way to walk the line, you must choose.

I think probably the closest thing to a grey jedi would be someone like Mace Windu, who traveled the light side, and attempted to do good, but also expiramented with things that some would consider dark.  (Mace windu created a lightsaber fighting style that, it seems to me, was based on instinct and intuition, rather than peace and using the force, so was flirting with the dark side of emotion)

I think that is the closest you can get to a gray jedi.

hope this helps

John


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## LostSoul (Aug 2, 2006)

In the games I used to play, yeah, I think there was a grey side to things.

I had a tendency to offer up Dark Side points like candy.  "If you call on the Dark Side, you will get some dice to survive the blast," is one of the lamer ones.  "You know, this fight is tough, eh?  Why not go nuts with rage and grab some sweet dice.  Oh, and a Dark Side point."  That's a little better.  "I know you're trying to atone, but if you use all those big fat Dark Side dice think how easy it would be to kick his ass."  That's a good one too.

We never played with any sweet "Dark Side" powers or anything like that, just the base Sense, Control, and Alter dice.

Actually, I don't know if that makes it grey or anything.  You just end up with characters who struggle with the temptation to do evil to get what they want.  Maybe they're marked by it, or maybe they're dead because they resisted the temptation.  Yeah, those characters weren't paragons of Jedi virtue, but I liked that.

Yeah, there is a middle ground, because it's human beings that we're talking about.  It's complicated.


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## Falkus (Aug 2, 2006)

> Yes and no. Canon is fuzzy in a game if for no other reason than that it's interactive, and each player's play experience creates a different order of events, not all of which can be the canonical one. At the very basic level, Revan's sex and whether Revan turned to the Dark or the Light are quite fundamental facts in the history of the Star Wars universe (since they determine whether Revan was Bastila's or Carth's lover, etc.), and yet after playing both games all you can say about either of those is that they're "indeterminate".



The case I was specifically referring to was the Jedi Knight series, where Kyle Katarn and Jaden both use dark side powers for the light side.



> The point of the Force is that it *is* mystical and tied directly to one's emotions and one's psychological state. It isn't just another kind of "science", a simple physical force you can control. There are some manifestations of the Force directly linked to positive mental states -- empathy, calm, compassion -- and some that are directly linked to negative ones -- anger, hatred, schadenfreude, spite. The manifestation of Force Lightning is clearly the latter.




Well, that's what I have a problem with. I see the dark and light side as being determined by HOW you use your powers, not what your powers are. Using force heal to keep a person alive so you can keep torturing him puts you on the dark side, while using force lightning in my aforementioned assassin droid example puts you on the light side.


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## Donovan Morningfire (Aug 2, 2006)

Falkus said:
			
		

> Well, that's what I have a problem with. I see the dark and light side as being determined by HOW you use your powers, not what your powers are. Using force heal to keep a person alive so you can keep torturing him puts you on the dark side, while using force lightning in my aforementioned assassin droid example puts you on the light side.



The problem with that view is that it contradicts the view espoused in the movies, which outrank everyhing else in terms of canonicity.  The Force comes in two-flavors; natural (also called light side) and dark side.  According to the Flanneled One, especially in the extras included with the DVDs, what we've been calling the light side of the Force is the natural state of things, with the dark side as corruption.

Force Lightning is the archetypical dark side power, and in the rather simplistic way the Star Wars universe works, using evil to fight evil is still an evil act.  A caveat I've been using for my Star Wars games (successfully) for years is "the more you try to rationalize your actions to avoid a dark side point, the more you prove you deserve that dark side point."  Like I've said before, every rationalization for "Grey Jedi" boils down to being able to want to use all those nifty dark side Force powers without suffering the consequences for them.

The closest thing we've even remotely seen to the so-called "grey" Jedi is Mace Windu, who developed a lethal fighting style out of a need to control and channel his own inner darkness.  He knows that he's walking a razor's edge every time he uses Vaapad, and one misstep will lead to his fall, as proven by the two other experts in Vaapad both falling to the dark side.  And yet Mace is firmly counted amongst the good guys.


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## Falkus (Aug 2, 2006)

Well, that must be the reason why I'm not so fond of the Star Wars movies.


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## Corvidae (Aug 2, 2006)

Think of it this way, they are the same power but different manifestations.

A jedi would use force push, which allows them to defeat their enemies without doing excessive harm.  Force push is not a parlor trick learned in jedi academy, but rather the force flowing through the jedi and the jedi's own desire not to cause undue harm that causes it to manifest as a "push"

A sith or dark jedi however, has no compunctions about causing excessive harm.  The force channled through them would come out in such a way as a simple deadly force lightning.  

So a jedi could "learn" to use force lightning, but to do so would force the jedi to give up compunctions of killing and harming for harms sake, and thus push the jedi to the dark side.  


Overall, the jedi abilities are not parlor tricks, or techniques picked up, but rather, are manifestations of the force moving through them.  Like light through a prism, it is changed into a different form.  In this case, the force is the light, and the jedi is the prism.  A different shape or material of prism will change how the light is refracted.  That is what the jedi do, they learn to shape themselves rather than shape the force.  The force manifests depending on the person it manifests through.  

So there is no learning powers.  The powers come naturally, whether they are jedi powers or sith powers.  

Hope that helps clear it up.

The force is not magic, it is not used like magic.  I think that is the main misunderstanding.

John


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Aug 2, 2006)

LostSoul said:
			
		

> Yeah, there is a middle ground, because it's human beings that we're talking about.  It's complicated.




Except that the Force has nothing to do with humans...there ISN'T a middle ground.

Remember, Light Side does not mean your a Jedi. The Force doesn't 'care' whether you're a Jedi or not. The important point is to follow the will of the Force in the natural state of things. And the Dark Side is the corruption of the natural state.

There is NOT a middle ground between natural and corruption. You are one or the other. 

Humans can try to walk the line, but there isn't a line to walk. Yes, its fine to be a Light Sider that isn't actually a Jedi, but the Dark Side is the Dark Side. It is, quite simply, black and white. There are no shades of grey following the canon.


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## LostSoul (Aug 2, 2006)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Except that the Force has nothing to do with humans...there ISN'T a middle ground.




I'm not talking about "humans in the fictional world of Star Wars", I'm talking about real live people.  People who watch the movies.  Um, like, "What is George Lucas trying to say about the human condition though the Force?"  Watching players answer that question for themselves; or rather, asking, "What are you trying to say about the human condition through the Force?"  Or whatever the question is, who cares.  You know what I'm getting at, though.


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## Aicvil (Aug 15, 2013)

Imagine, you could feel and control the Force like Jedi do. Let you choose Light side. Still you are a human beeing, not a saint and there are temptations, weaknesses, attractions wich can cause you to stagger and fall in your way even if you have good intentions. And feeling the power of the Force can even increase the defects in your nature as it is known that passions are strongest in the youth and are easier to master in older age or in a weakened state of the body like illness. The only way to the Light then is to rise up every time you fall and continiue the life-long quest. This is the first problem - problem of our nature which cannot be changed into flawless in short time even if we want to. So the example of Mace Windu channeling and controlling his inner darkness within his saberfight style is quite realistic - it is better to know and control the inner darkness then to deny it, unless we are strong enaugh to transform or clean and sublime its energy completely. So we can declare high dogmas and follow the outer rules of High Concil, yet we can feel the tension between the ideals and reality and that tension can bring to a fall, to release of anger etc. The higher the goals - the more danger to fall, because of the difference between our nature and the ideals. Second problem is that there are seldom clear options of best actions - for every desision and every choice in life we pay. Example for this is Jolee Bindo who spared life of his wife who was a Sith - this desision is the only one true to make in my opinion. But there is always a prise to pay and there are seldom perfect desisions to take. So even if the want to be on Light Side most of the jeddi are following the grey land like Gandalf the Grey


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## Celebrim (Aug 15, 2013)

Erekose said:


> I chose not to choose either: I chose something else.




In the first trilogy, this was a pretty simple choice - go with the Light.   After all, in the first trilogy this was a straight up choice between good and evil, between joy and sorrow, between hate and love, and between life and death.  Light and Dark were conceived in terms of Western symbology, and as in a classic Western fairy tale, love conquers all, providing the tool to defeat not only evil, but in complete conquest to redeem even in the most fallen soul.  

But in the prequel trilogy, things change completely.   Light and dark are conceived not in the terms of the original trilogy, but in the terms of the Yin and Yang.   Compassion moves from the light side to the dark side.   Love moves from the light side to the dark side.  The conflict moves from between that of good and evil, but (in D&D terms) something closer to law versus chaos.   The Jedi are revealed to be as despicable in many ways as the Sith, and the conflict between them not the drama of good vs. evil but the petty conflict of two tribes each of which desires absolute authority.  The truly damning moment comes when Obi Wan abandons his best friend to burn, but Palpatine rushes to have compassion on his failed and beaten apprentice.   Love isn't the solution to the problem, but (in the form of attachment) the cause of it.  Proper behavior moves from something like right or wrong, to something closer to 'balance' - something no character in the trilogy actually displays least of all the Jedi.  

So yeah, after the second trilogy, the only sane choice IS 'I chose something else'.   I'm far more sympathetic after the prequel trilogy to the notion that the world would be better off without the stupid Jedi priesthood and their inhuman religion.  You wouldn't want to side with the murderous Sith either, but the Jedi - merciless Mace, compassionless Yoda, Obi Wan and his 'true from a certain point of view' and casual mind control - don't come off that well either.


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## Derren (Aug 15, 2013)

I think a gray Jedi is not really possible when one stays within the quasi religious trappings of the Sith and Jedi order.

If there ever would be a gray Jedi would imo likely be a "Renaissance" Jedi, forsaking ancient rituals and archaic lightsabers for blaster and science while seeing the Force as a force of nature much like gravity to be measured and quantified. But we will likely never see a Jedi like this anywhere near a canon source.

This opens up another issue. What defines a Sith? Is every force who does mean things to others automatically a Sith even when he laughs about their rituals and codex and doesn't want anything to do with their fairytales and galaxy conquering fantasies? Same goes for Jedi and nice force users.


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## Aicvil (Aug 16, 2013)

Ayia Celebrim! Religion is a rigid and insufficient substitute of "the wisdom of the heart" and its dogmas can bound the spirit in the way and narrow the vision. Estel is a much better way  Well this a different realm already yet the one you familiar with as I read from your nickname 

I think it is quite important point you mentioned of Yin/Yang or Good/Evil opposites in relation to jedi or sith. Nowdays it is common to see Good/Evil as dualistic indispensible sides of the One reality like Yin and Yang in the prequel trilogy. This is a completely wrong view which leads to the justification of the Evil as a necessary balancing force to the Good. I often saw such viewpoint in the real life as an exuse for mean things. The solution of this problem is a proper definition of Good and Evil and this is realy a very interesting question especially in complicated situations where not only the compassion but the wisdom is required too. As if you like to help an unemployed friend and keep lending him money knowing that he wastes it for drinks, so wiser way is to help him in finding the job and be less generous with money  And even with good intentions we still can take stupid decisions and learn from the experience. 

But why you called Yoda compassionless?


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## ThirdWizard (Aug 16, 2013)

All this talk of Kreia and no mention of Jolee Bindo? For shame.


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## howandwhy99 (Aug 17, 2013)

Han Solo is the grey side, just not a jedi. But Jedi aren't on the dark side either, so really that's a wash.

Questionable ethics, selfish ends, skirting around laws and even outright breaking them albeit for one's own profit, smuggling, seducing, helpful to others only to feed his own desires, always looking for a quick cred, a safe place to stay hidden...

He isn't an Imperial, some malicious, self-righteous controller. But he isn't on the side of the Jedi either. 

At the end of the original film he joins forces with the Rebellion, but he can be seen as slowly coming around to that way of living in the following movies too.


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## Umbran (Aug 17, 2013)

Erekose said:


> Choose Light. Choose Dark. But who would want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose either: I chose something else.




My first thought on the piece:  This is defining yourself as what you are not, rather than as what you *are*.  I choose something else?  Fine.  What is it that you choose?  You wanna do your own thing?  Cool.  Tell me what that thing actually is, not what it isn't.


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