# Converting original D&D and Mystara monsters



## Shade (Feb 18, 2008)

Part Two.  

Original thread closed due to exceeding 1,000 post count.


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## Shade (May 29, 2008)

Companion Set:

*Helion * 
Armor Class: 1
Hit Dice: 9*
Move: 90’ (30’)
Flying: 240’ (80’)
Attacks: 1 grasp
Damage: See below
No. Appearing: 1-4 (2-40)
Save As: Fighter: 9
Morale: 9
Treasure Type: Special
Alignment: Lawful
XP Value: 1,600

Helions are intelligent giant-sized creatures made of fire. They are native to the Elemental Plane of Fire, and are rarely encountered elsewhere. Helions are extremely good, and shun violence.

A helion appears as a 20’ diameter ring of flame. It is immune to poison, normal weapons,
all 1st and 2nd level spells, and to all attacks based on earth.

A helion can detect invisible at will, and can use detect magic, dispel magic, wall of fire, and earth to fire 3 times per day. It can also control fire completely, changing it to solid, liquid, or gaseous form at will (Saving Throw applies for fire-type creatures).
A helion attacks by forming a ring around its opponent. If its Hit roll is successful, it
wraps around the victim, who then cannot move. The helion may squeeze for 2-16 points of damage (per round), but rarely tries to damage opponents in this way, preferring to negotiate peaceful terms. It will, however, defend itself if attacked.

Helions are famous philosophers and negotiators. Their enemies are the efreet and the haoou, and they fear water-type creatures and attacks.

The Sun Brothers (see module X2) are distant relatives of helions who dwell on the Prime Plane.


Mystara MC:

*Helion*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any fire
Freq: Very rare
Org: Any
DIET: Fire
INTELLIGENCE: High (14)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: LG
FREQUENCY: Lawful good
No. APPEARING: 1d4+1
AC: 1
MOVEMENT: 9, fly 24 (A)
Hn DICE: 9
THACO 11
No. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE~AXACK: 2d8 (squeeze)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Spells, trap
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MR: Nil
SIZE: T-G (1'-40' diam.)
MORALE: Elite (14)
XP VALUE: 6,000

Helion
Helions (HEE-lee-ons) are native to the Elemental Plane of Fire, and characters rarely encounter them elsewhere. These extremely good creatures shun violence of all sorts.

A helion normally looks like a huge (20-foot diameter) ring of pulsating flame. However, helions can twist their bodies in an extraordinary range of motion; they can shnnk down to a mere 1 foot across or expand their diameters to 40 feet.

Combat: Helions loathe combat and, even in the midst of battle, constantly search for a more peaceful resolution to conflict.  When in combat, a helion attempts to form a ring around its opponent. On a successful attack roll, the elemental shrinks around its victim(s) in a trap. (The helion can control its own temperature and will not burn a trapped victim.) It can squeeze its captured foe for 2d8 points of damage per round, but it rarely tries to damage opponents this way, preferring to negotiate peaceful terms.

A helion-can use detect magic, dispel magic, wall of fire, and purifying flame (works as a cure diseuse spell) three times per day.  Additionally, a helion can cast affect normal fires at will. It casts all spells at 9th level. Helions, though immune to all flame-based attacks, remain vulnerable to water-based attacks, from which they suffer double damage.

Habitat/Society: Helions form tight family groups known rings. Each ring has ld4+1 members. Rings of helions move methodically about the Elemental Plane of Fire, meeting to discuss and debate phdosophical matters of all kinds.

Ecology: The helions are famed philosophers and negotiators. In times of great crisis, brave adventurers journey to the Elemental Plane of Fire to find aid for their people. The main foes of helions include the efreet and the elementals of chaos.


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## Shade (May 29, 2008)

Since it's been awhile, here are the other elemental of law conversions thus far:

Hydrax
Kryst


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## Shade (Jun 11, 2008)

I think the first thing to decide is Large or Huge?   By the normal size guidelines, they'd fall in the Huge range.  But for standard fire elementals, they don't reach Huge until they are 32 feet tall.


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## freyar (Jun 13, 2008)

Let's go L.  9HD is a little low for Huge.  (This seems to be something of a common problem with some conversions; I've been looking at the quelzarn recently myself, and it's the same thing.  In that case, though, the behir also has 9HD and similar size.)


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## Shade (Jun 16, 2008)

Large it is!

Lets work on ability scores.  We know Int is 14.  "Helions are famous philosophers and negotiators."  That implies high Cha and probably Wis. Its AC translates to one higher than the Large fire elemental, so I'd suggest a slightly higher Dex.

Large Fire Elemental:  Str 14, Dex 21, Con 16, Int 6, Wis 11, Cha 11

So maybe...

Str 14, Dex 23, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 16?


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 16, 2008)

Ability scores sound right. Interestingly enough, even though they have spell like abilities, none of them have DCs.

Do we want to model the "form a ring and traps" into improved grab and constrict? If so, do we want the constriction damage to be nonlethal? It does say that they prefer to use the ability to capture, not kill.


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## Shade (Jun 16, 2008)

Interesting indeed.

Yeah, I think that's a good idea.  Or instead of improved grab, we could modify engulf.


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## freyar (Jun 16, 2008)

I like Imp Grab and Constrict with the option to deal nonlethal damage with no penalty (would constrict take a penalty to the grapple check if you tried to do nonlethal?).

I also like the ability scores.


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## Shade (Jun 16, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.



> It is immune to poison, normal weapons, all 1st and 2nd level spells, and to all attacks based on earth.






> they fear water-type creatures and attacks






> Helions, though immune to all flame-based attacks, remain vulnerable to water-based attacks, from which they suffer double damage.




Do we want to just stick with immunity to fire/vulnerability to cold, or do we want to add immunity to earth/vulnerability to water?



> A helion can detect invisible at will, and can use detect magic, dispel magic, wall of fire, and earth to fire 3 times per day. It can also control fire completely, changing it to solid, liquid, or gaseous form at will (Saving Throw applies for fire-type creatures).






> A helion-can use detect magic, dispel magic, wall of fire, and purifying flame (works as a cure diseuse spell) three times per day. Additionally, a helion can cast affect normal fires at will. It casts all spells at 9th level.




Purifying Flame (Sp): Three times per day, a helion may limn a creature in harmless fire. This otherwise functions as the remove disease spell (caster level 9th).

See Invisibility (Ex): An elemental of law can constantly see invisible creatures as if under the effects of a see invisibility spell.

Spell-Like Abilities: 3/day—detect magic, dispel magic, wall of fire (DC x). Caster level 9th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

This covers all but the affect normal fires, earth to fire, and "control fire completely".  Do we want to use some or all of these?


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## GrayLinnorm (Jun 16, 2008)

Would heat metal work as a substitute for earth to fire? It's the closest thing I can think of.


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## GrayLinnorm (Jun 16, 2008)

There's also transmute rock to lava (Complete Arcane, Spell Compendium), but it's not a core spell.

Pyrotechnics for affect normal fires?


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## Shade (Jun 16, 2008)

Good suggestions.  We could probably make a unique SLA based off transmute rock to lava.

Pyrotechnics makes sense for affect normal fires.  I think we also did a variant in a not-too-distant conversion to affect fires.  I'll hunt for it.


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## Shade (Jun 16, 2008)

Found it!

Control Flames (Su): As a standard action, a feng huang can pyrokinetically control the intensity or movements of one fire source. This functions exactly like the control flames psionic power, treating the feng huang as a 20th-level manifester for determining the power's effects.


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## freyar (Jun 17, 2008)

I could go either way, but I think the control flames option is a little more versatile.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 17, 2008)

Why not both?


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## Shade (Jun 17, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> Why not both?




Indeed.


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## freyar (Jun 17, 2008)

Sure, let's give it pyrotechnics and control flame (at manifester level 9?).  Both at will?



> However, helions can twist their bodies in an extraordinary range of motion; they can shnnk down to a mere 1 foot across or expand their diameters to 40 feet.



Something like enlarge/reduce person (self only)?


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 17, 2008)

Something like an efreet's change size, but over a wider range? (Tiny to Huge).


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## freyar (Jun 17, 2008)

Right, I think that's basically what I was saying (efreet's ability is based on those spells).  But I agree, it needs to be extended.


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## Shade (Jun 17, 2008)

How does this look?

Change Size (Su): As a standard action, a helion can magically twist its body in an extraordinary range of motion, allowing it to effectively change size. This works just like a enlarge person or reduce person spell (the helion chooses when using the ability), except that the ability can work on the helion and allows it to change from Tiny to Huge size.

I figured it should be Su (or even Ex) rather than spell-like, since it comes from twisting its body, not through magic.

Transmute rock to lava is a bit too powerful for these guys.  For earth to fire, how about this?

Earth to Fire (Sp):  Three times per day, a helion may transform x 10-foot-cubes of earth into elemental fire of equal size.  Creatures hitting touching the fire take fire damage as though hit by the burn ability of a fire elemental of equivalent size, and also catch on fire unless they succeed on a DC X Reflex save.  This is the equivalent of an Xth-level spell.

Creatures of the earth subtype must succeed on a DC X Reflex save or take x points of fire damage.  Earth elementals that fail their saves are transformed into a fire elemental of the same size for x rounds.


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## Big Mac (Jun 17, 2008)

I've just chased my tail over this monster. At first I thought the Helion might be related to the Helian from Spelljammer (and later Planescape), but they are very different. (Although I only found that out after digging out SJR2 Realmspace.) Maybe the Helian was a reboot of this monster.

This looks like a fun monster. I'll have to have a think about it and see if I can come up with any useful ideas.


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## Big Mac (Jun 17, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> I like Imp Grab and Constrict with the option to deal nonlethal damage with no penalty (would constrict take a penalty to the grapple check if you tried to do nonlethal?).




I might have missed the answer to this but if this monster should this monster gain Improved Unarmed Strike?

That would seem to fit in with the spirit of the words: _"It can squeeze its captured foe for 2d8 points of damage per round, but it rarely tries to damage opponents this way, preferring to negotiate peaceful terms."_

If it grabs people without burning them, and then surrounds them, but tries not to squash them, I'd say it would be logical for it to *try* to knock opponents out unless it really needed to kill them.

I've got a question about this creature. It forms a ring around its opponent as part of its attack form. So are you going to:

a) Make it roll an attack roll to be able to surround people or,
b) Let it surround people and then shrink down?

Because if it can form a big circle I can see it gaining a flanking bonus when it tries to shink down.

This reminds me in a way of the Engulf ability of a Gelatinous Cube:

Engulf (Ex)
Although it moves slowly, a gelatinous cube can simply mow down Large or smaller creatures as a standard action. It cannot make a slam attack during a round in which it engulfs. The gelatinous cube merely has to move over the opponents, affecting as many as it can cover. Opponents can make opportunity attacks against the cube, but if they do so they are not entitled to a saving throw. Those who do not attempt attacks of opportunity must succeed on a DC 13 Reflex save or be engulfed; on a success, they are pushed back or aside (opponent’s choice) as the cube moves forward. Engulfed creatures are subject to the cube’s paralysis and acid, and are considered to be grappled and trapped within its body. The save DC is Strength-based and includes a +1 racial bonus.​
I wonder if the Helion should have some sort of "Encircle" ability. Maybe something like this:

Encircle (Ex)
A helion can simply surround and grapple X or smaller creatures as a standard action. It cannot make a slam attack during a round in which it engulfs. The helion merely has to move around the opponents, affecting as many as it can cover. Opponents can make opportunity attacks against the helion, but if they do so they are not entitled to a saving throw. Those who do not attempt attacks of opportunity must succeed on a DC X Reflex save or be engulfed; on a success, they are pushed back or aside (opponent’s choice) as the helion moves in a circle. Engulfed creatures are subject to the helion’s constriction, and are considered to be grappled and trapped within its body. The save DC is X-based and includes a +X racial bonus.​
In fact, the original creature would appear to be unable to make any slam attacks and only seems to do constriction damage.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 18, 2008)

Improved Unarmed Strike is useless to creatures that already have a natural attack. The easiest way to model something grappling and constricting is to give a slam attack, with imp. grab onto it. Engulf is certainly possible, but I think constriction is it.


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## Shade (Jun 19, 2008)

OK, here are the two approaches...

Encircle (Ex):  A helion can simply surround and grapple X or smaller creatures as a standard action. It cannot make a slam attack during a round in which it engulfs. The helion merely has to move around the opponents, affecting as many as it can cover. Opponents can make opportunity attacks against the helion, but if they do so they are not entitled to a saving throw. Those who do not attempt attacks of opportunity must succeed on a DC X Reflex save or be engulfed; on a success, they are pushed back or aside (opponent’s choice) as the helion moves in a circle. Engulfed creatures are subject to the helion’s constriction, and are considered to be grappled and trapped within its body. The save DC is X-based and includes a +X racial bonus.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a helion must hit an opponent of X size or smaller with a slam attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict.


How's this for the constriction?

Constrict (Ex): A helion deals 2d8+2 points of damage plus 2d6 points of fire damage with a successful grapple check.  A helion may choose to deal nonlethal damage instead, and may suppress its fire damage.


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## freyar (Jun 19, 2008)

I think I'm going to switch over to the Encircle/Engulf camp, but we need to change the "engulf" references to "encircle" in the ability text.  Constrict looks good.


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## Shade (Jun 20, 2008)

So...

Encircle (Ex): A helion can simply surround and grapple X or smaller creatures as a standard action. It cannot make a slam attack during a round in which it encircles. The helion merely has to move around the opponents, affecting as many as it can cover. Opponents can make opportunity attacks against the helion, but if they do so they are not entitled to a saving throw. Those who do not attempt attacks of opportunity must succeed on a DC X Reflex save or be encircled; on a success, they are pushed back or aside (opponent’s choice) as the helion moves in a circle. Encircled creatures are subject to the helion’s constriction, and are considered to be grappled and trapped within its body. The save DC is X-based and includes a +X racial bonus.

Constrict (Ex): A helion deals 2d8+2 points of damage plus 2d6 points of fire damage with a successful grapple check. A helion may choose to deal nonlethal damage instead, and may suppress its fire damage.


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## freyar (Jun 20, 2008)

I like it.  Let's make the encircle DC Dex-based and maybe a +2 racial bonus.  Any objections?


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## Big Mac (Jun 24, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> Improved Unarmed Strike is useless to creatures that already have a natural attack. The easiest way to model something grappling and constricting is to give a slam attack, with imp. grab onto it. Engulf is certainly possible, but I think constriction is it.




Thanks for the heads up.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Encircle (Ex): A helion can simply surround and grapple X or smaller creatures as a standard action. It cannot make a slam attack during a round in which it encircles. The helion merely has to move around the opponents, affecting as many as it can cover. Opponents can make opportunity attacks against the helion, but if they do so they are not entitled to a saving throw. Those who do not attempt attacks of opportunity must succeed on a DC X Reflex save or be encircled; on a success, they are pushed back or aside (opponent’s choice) as the helion moves in a circle. Encircled creatures are subject to the helion’s constriction, and are considered to be grappled and trapped within its body. The save DC is X-based and includes a +X racial bonus.
> 
> Constrict (Ex): A helion deals 2d8+2 points of damage plus 2d6 points of fire damage with a successful grapple check. A helion may choose to deal nonlethal damage instead, and may suppress its fire damage.




That is a big improvment.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> I like it.  Let's make the encircle DC Dex-based and maybe a +2 racial bonus.  Any objections?




The encircle move seems more like a dance move than a brute force thing, so I'm onboard with Dex. I'm not sure about the +2 racial bonus, but will go with your judgement as I don't have a better idea.


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## Shade (Jun 24, 2008)

Updated.


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## freyar (Jun 25, 2008)

Skills: 13 ranks each of Diplomacy, Knowledge (the planes), Listen, Spot?  Want to add more?

Just noticed that the organization name for the kryst isn't chosen yet.  I'd go with "clump" myself.


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## Shade (Jun 25, 2008)

Good catch!  I fixed the kryst, using clump.

Since they use many SLAs, I'm thinking we should put some ranks in Concentration.  Otherwise, I like your skill choices.

Let's figure out the equivalent level of earth to fire before selecting feats, as it could affect Quicken or Empower SLA should we want them.

Earth to Fire (Sp): Three times per day, a helion may transform x 10-foot-cubes of earth into elemental fire of equal size. Creatures hitting touching the fire take fire damage as though hit by the burn ability of a fire elemental of equivalent size, and also catch on fire unless they succeed on a DC X Reflex save. This is the equivalent of an Xth-level spell.  (Reflex save DC will be a  product of equivalent spell level).


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## freyar (Jun 25, 2008)

Oh, you're right.  How about 10 ranks in each of the above skills and 12 in Concentration?

I think the spell level would depend on how many 10 ft cubes.  How about 2 10 ft cubes?  As if hit by the burn ability of a Large fire elemental (2d6 fire damage)?  Does the fire stay there or revert to earth after some number of rounds?  Range?  Can it transform earth a character is standing on?  In any case, if we stick with 2d6 and limit the number of rounds, I'd guess about 4th level spell.


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## Shade (Jun 30, 2008)

freyar said:


> Oh, you're right.  How about 10 ranks in each of the above skills and 12 in Concentration?




That outta work.



freyar said:


> I think the spell level would depend on how many 10 ft cubes.  How about 2 10 ft cubes?




Sure.  But let's say "up to two 10 foot cubes" because...



freyar said:


> As if hit by the burn ability of a Large fire elemental (2d6 fire damage)?




...I'd like them to be able to transform smaller objects into smaller fires (and equivalent sized elementals).



freyar said:


> Does the fire stay there or revert to earth after some number of rounds?




Good question.  2d4 rounds?



freyar said:


> Range?




Another excellent question.  If we go with close range, it would equate to 70 feet.



freyar said:


> Can it transform earth a character is standing on?




Hmmm...good question.  How to word that?



freyar said:


> In any case, if we stick with 2d6 and limit the number of rounds, I'd guess about 4th level spell.




I'd agree with 4th.

And for some reason, I cut off this part when I Homebrewed them:

Creatures of the earth subtype must succeed on a DC X Reflex save or take x points of fire damage. Earth elementals that fail their saves are transformed into a fire elemental of the same size for x rounds. 

Increase damage to d8s, and same duration as other effect?


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## Shade (Jul 3, 2008)

Bumping, since it slipped off the first page.


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## freyar (Jul 4, 2008)

Revising...

Earth to Fire (Sp): Three times per day, a helion may transform 2 10-foot-cubes of earth (or smaller cubes, totalling no more than 200 cubic feet) within close range (45 ft) into elemental fire of equal size.  Creatures hitting touching the fire take fire damage as though hit by the burn ability of a fire elemental of equivalent size, and also catch on fire unless they succeed on a DC X Reflex save.  If a character is standing on earth that is transformed to fire, that character receives a DC X Reflex save to jump to an adjacent location; on a failed save, the character takes fire damage and catches fire as above.

Creatures of the earth subtype must succeed on a DC X Reflex save or take x points of fire damage. Earth elementals that fail their saves are transformed into a fire elemental of the same size for x rounds.

This is the equivalent of an 4th-level spell.  Caster level 9th.


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## Big Mac (Jul 6, 2008)

freyar said:


> Revising...
> 
> Earth to Fire (Sp):




Is this something that is replacing the Affect Normal Fires spell like ability? I'm a little lost.



freyar said:


> If a character is standing on earth that is transformed to fire, that character receives a DC X Reflex save to jump to an adjacent location; on a failed save, the character takes fire damage and catches fire as above.




Isn't elemental fire treated as a heavy gas or a liquid? Wouldn't a character who fails to move, find that the ground gives way below him and he drops into a pit (of fire)?


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## freyar (Jul 6, 2008)

The Companion Set version of these had "earth to fire" as an SLA, so this is to do that.

You're probably right about dropping into the pit.  Since the fire can't be more than 10 ft deep, the falling damage would only be 1d6 and nothing most of the time.  I'd rule that the fire is sort of "thick," negating the damage.  But we can put in that they'd need to climb out or something.


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## Big Mac (Jul 6, 2008)

freyar said:


> The Companion Set version of these had "earth to fire" as an SLA, so this is to do that.




Thanks. I need to learn these things, so I can become an uber-geek and do them myself. 



freyar said:


> You're probably right about dropping into the pit.  Since the fire can't be more than 10 ft deep, the falling damage would only be 1d6 and nothing most of the time.  I'd rule that the fire is sort of "thick," negating the damage.  But we can put in that they'd need to climb out or something.




I'm not after extra damage, but I figured that if a monster falls into a pit or starts to sink in molten liquid, they have to climb out to avoid taking fire damage every round.


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## Shade (Jul 7, 2008)

So...

Earth to Fire (Sp): Three times per day, a helion may transform 2 10-foot-cubes of earth (or smaller cubes, totalling no more than 200 cubic feet) within close range (45 ft) into elemental fire of equal size. Creatures hitting touching the fire take fire damage as though hit by the burn ability of a fire elemental of equivalent size, and also catch on fire unless they succeed on a DC X Reflex save. If a creature is standing on earth that is transformed to fire, that creature receives a DC X Reflex save to jump to an adjacent location; on a failed save, the character takes fire damage and catches fire as above, and must succeed on a DC X Climb check in the following round or suffer fire damage for an additional round.

Creatures of the earth subtype must succeed on a DC X Reflex save or take x points of fire damage. Earth elementals that fail their saves are transformed into a fire elemental of the same size for x rounds.


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## freyar (Jul 11, 2008)

Shade said:


> So...
> 
> Earth to Fire (Sp): Three times per day, a helion may transform 2 10-foot-cubes of earth (or smaller cubes, totalling no more than 200 cubic feet) within close range (45 ft) into elemental fire of equal size. Creatures hitting touching the fire take fire damage as though hit by the burn ability of a fire elemental of equivalent size, and also catch on fire unless they succeed on a DC X Reflex save. If a creature is standing on earth that is transformed to fire, that creature receives a DC X Reflex save to jump to an adjacent location; on a failed save, the character takes fire damage and catches fire as above, and must succeed on a DC X Climb check in the following round or suffer fire damage for an additional round.
> 
> Creatures of the earth subtype must succeed on a DC X Reflex save or take x points of fire damage. Earth elementals that fail their saves are transformed into a fire elemental of the same size for x rounds.




We need to add something to the second paragraph to say how earth subtype creatures are targeted.  "Creatures of the earth subtype standing on transformed earth..." or "A creature of the earth subtype may be targeted instead of a cube of earth (One Large creature is equivalent to one 10 ft cube of earth, 4 Medium, etc.)"  Which do you prefer?


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## Shade (Jul 14, 2008)

freyar said:


> We need to add something to the second paragraph to say how earth subtype creatures are targeted.  "Creatures of the earth subtype standing on transformed earth..." or "A creature of the earth subtype may be targeted instead of a cube of earth (One Large creature is equivalent to one 10 ft cube of earth, 4 Medium, etc.)"  Which do you prefer?




Good suggestion, and I prefer the latter.


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## Shade (Jul 15, 2008)

So....

Earth to Fire (Sp): Three times per day, a helion may transform 2 10-foot-cubes of earth (or smaller cubes, totalling no more than 200 cubic feet) within close range (45 ft) into elemental fire of equal size. Creatures hitting touching the fire take fire damage as though hit by the burn ability of a fire elemental of equivalent size, and also catch on fire unless they succeed on a DC X Reflex save. If a creature is standing on earth that is transformed to fire, that creature receives a DC X Reflex save to jump to an adjacent location; on a failed save, the character takes fire damage and catches fire as above, and must succeed on a DC X Climb check in the following round or suffer fire damage for an additional round.

Creatures of the earth subtype may be targeted instead of a cube of earth, using the creature's space as the equivalent sized cube.  (For example, a Large creature with a space of 10 ft. is equivalent to a 10-foot-cube, while a Medium or Small creature is equal to a 5-foot cube).  Creatures of the earth subtype must succeed on a DC X Reflex save or take x points of fire damage. Earth elementals that fail their saves are transformed into a fire elemental of the same size for x rounds.


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## freyar (Jul 15, 2008)

I like it!  Let's go Cha-based on all those DCs, so 17 barring Ability Focus.  Earth subtype creatures take 1d8 points of fire damage?  Earth elementals are transformed for 1d6 rounds?  Should they also be effectively charmed by the helion?


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## Shade (Jul 15, 2008)

I agree with everything except being charmed.


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## freyar (Jul 16, 2008)

Fair enough; it was just an odd idea I had that maybe the purpose of converting earth elementals was to create allies...


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## Shade (Jul 16, 2008)

Not a bad idea at all...I just figured they are already powerful and complex enough.  

Updated.

Let's fill in some Xs:

Feats: 4
Fire elementals have Alertness, Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Initiative (B), Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Mobility, Spring Attack, Weapon Finesse (B), Weapon Focus (slam)

Advancement: 10–15 HD (Large); 16–48 HD (Huge) [following fire elemental progression]?

Encircle (Ex): A helion can simply surround and grapple X or smaller creatures as a standard action. It cannot make a slam attack during a round in which it encircles. The helion merely has to move around the opponents, affecting as many as it can cover. Opponents can make opportunity attacks against the helion, but if they do so they are not entitled to a saving throw. Those who do not attempt attacks of opportunity must succeed on a DC 22 Reflex save or be encircled; on a success, they are pushed back or aside (opponent’s choice) as the helion moves in a circle. Encircled creatures are subject to the helion’s constriction, and are considered to be grappled and trapped within its body. The save DC is Dexterity-based and includes a +2 racial bonus.

A typical helion is 20 feet in diameter and weighs around x pounds.  (A Large fire elemental is 16 feet and weighs 4 pounds, while a Huge one is 32 feet and weighs 8 pounds, so maybe 5 pounds for these fellows?)

Helions speak x.  (Ignan and Celestial?)


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## freyar (Jul 16, 2008)

Let's give them Imp Init, Dodge, Mobility, and Negotiator.  I could see giving them Imp Init as a bonus (and maybe Weapon Finesse) and adding either Alertness or Iron Will.

Advancement is good.

Encircle Large or smaller creatures?
You know, the Space of these guys is weird, given that they are 20 ft in diameter.  Should they have an exceptional space or maybe get bumped to Huge?

5lb, Ignan and Celestial both sound fine.


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## Shade (Jul 16, 2008)

Updated.

We decided on Large since they could alter their size up to 20 feet, leaving Huge as an option.

Speaking of which, let's go with "the same size category or smaller" for encircle, since they can change their size.

CR 6-7?

Also, I had to laugh.  I had the SQ line listing "vulnerability to cod".  Fear the fish (or worse, the piece)!


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## freyar (Jul 16, 2008)

That all sounds good to me.  Pretty much done, then, I think.


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## Shade (Jul 16, 2008)

Are they too tough for CR 6?  They seem like a strong 6, weak 7.


----------



## freyar (Jul 17, 2008)

Let's make them a tough 6, since they're mostly peacable and maybe ought to be a diplomatic encounter most of the time.


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## Big Mac (Jul 26, 2008)

Shade said:


> Also, I had to laugh.  I had the SQ line listing "vulnerability to cod".  Fear the fish (or worse, the piece)!




I wish I'd noticed that earlier.  Now I'm wanting to see a D&D monster that *does* have a vulnerability to cod. 

Great work guys. And not too many red herrings (arf-arf).

What is next?


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## Big Mac (Aug 16, 2008)

*Bump!*



Big Mac said:


> What is next?




Are there any more Mystara or OD&D monsters in the queue?


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## Shade (Sep 8, 2008)

*Elemental of Law, Anemo*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any air
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Flock
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Air
INTELLIGENCE: Very (12)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Lawful neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1d6
ARMOR CLASS: 1
MOVEMENT: 12, Fl 36 (A)
HIT DICE: 9
THAC0: 11
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d10 (whip)/1d10 (whip)/1d10 (whip)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Spells
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M (5’ across)
MORALE: Elite (14)
XP VALUE: 6,000

The anemos, native to the Elemental Plane of Air, direct their energies at creating order from the raw stuff of chaos.

These cottony-looking creatures, approximately 5 feet around, consist of a complex and ordered network of off-white fibers.  Their extremely light bodies enable them to perform unbelievably dexterous aerial maneuvers.

Combat:  An anemo has little fear of battle, choosing to fight whoever aids the forces of chaos.  In combat, an anemo usually attacks by forming itself into a whirlwind, whipping its opponents with a multitude of thin, abrasive fibers.  It can attack up to three times per round, causing 1d10 points of damage with each assault.

The anemo is immune to all air-based attacks.  It can use detect magic, dispel magic, solid fog, and wind wall each three times per day (at 9th level).  In addition, it can cast control winds (at 15th level) and aerial servant (which cannot attack the elemental) once per day.  An anemo remains vulnerable to earth-based attacks, suffering +3 points of damage per die.

Habitat/Society:  Each anemo works closely with others of its kind, forever attempting to catalogue and order all of existence.  These creatures are the most likely of all elementals of law to be found outside their home plane.

Ecology:  Anemos hate all creatures of chaos, particularly the elementals of chaos, and especially pyrophors; they dislike invisible stalkers as well.  They fear earth-based creatures and earth-based attacks.

Originally appeared in Mystara Monstrous Compendium Appendix (1994).


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## Shade (Sep 8, 2008)

Looking to Medium air elementals for inspiration...

Str 12, Dex 21, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 15?



> The anemo is immune to all air-based attacks.




Immunity to Air (Ex):  An anemo is immune to the detrimental effects of spells with the air descriptor.  



> It can use detect magic, dispel magic, solid fog, and wind wall each three times per day (at 9th level).  In addition, it can cast control winds (at 15th level) and aerial servant (which cannot attack the elemental) once per day.




Spell-Like Abilities: 3/day—detect magic, dispel magic, solid fog, wind wall (DC x);  1/day—control winds (caster level 15th, DC x). Caster level 9th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Replace aerial servant with a summon air elementals ability, similar to summon baatezu or summon tanar'ri?



> An anemo remains vulnerable to earth-based attacks, suffering +3 points of damage per die.




Vulnerability to Earth (Ex):  An anemo takes half again (+50%) as much damage from spells and effects of the Earth descriptor.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 9, 2008)

Three "fiber-lash" attacks... Weapon Finesse is a must here. Should we let them act like whips, and thus give it the potential for tripping and disarming feats?


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## Shade (Sep 9, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> Three "fiber-lash" attacks... Weapon Finesse is a must here. Should we let them act like whips, and thus give it the potential for tripping and disarming feats?




Yeah, sounds good.

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Sep 10, 2008)

Should they be immune to being reactively tripped even though they can't drop their tentacles like whips?  Should we perhaps give them improved trip like wolves instead?  I'm a little confused by this, I confess.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Sep 10, 2008)

I was thinking they should get Improved Trip and Improved Disarm, and get bonuses to their rolls like whips. Since it's a natural attack, it would be possible to try to trip them back.


----------



## freyar (Sep 10, 2008)

I like Improved Disarm, but I think I'd like to go with Trip as in the wolf:



			
				SRD said:
			
		

> Trip (Ex): A wolf that hits with a bite attack can attempt to trip the opponent (+1 check modifier) as a free action without making a touch attack or provoking an attack of opportunity. If the attempt fails, the opponent cannot react to trip the wolf.




Note that Improved Trip would still give improve the check bonus, if we wanted to use it, or we could just give it a racial bonus.


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## Shade (Sep 10, 2008)

I'd be fine with trip.  Demiurge?


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 15, 2008)

Trip sounds good to me.


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## Shade (Sep 15, 2008)

Updated.

In order to get Improved Trip and Improved Disarm, it needs Combat Expertise, which would require a slight Int boost.  Do we want to boost Int by 1, or give IT and ID as bonus feats?  I'm inclined toward the former, since it already gets two bonus feats.


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## freyar (Sep 15, 2008)

Let's just boost the Int.  We're not even talking about changing the bonus anyway.


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## Shade (Sep 15, 2008)

Updated.

Skills: 36 
Concentration and Knowledge (the planes) seem necessary at the very least

Advancement: 11-15 HD (Large); 16-x HD (Huge)

A typical anemo is 5 feet in diameter and weighs around x pounds.  (A Medium air elemental weighs 2 pounds, but I could see a tad more mass for these things)

Anemos speak Auran and x.  (Ignan due to their special emnity with pyrophors?)

Summon Air Elementals (Sp): Once per day, an anemo can automatically summon 1 x air elemental. This ability is the equivalent of a xth-level spell.
(A wizard of the anemo's Hit Dice could obtain summon monster V to obtain a Medium air elemental)


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## freyar (Sep 15, 2008)

Max Concentration, Know (planes), and Tumble?

-25HD?

Ignan, yes.

Let's go Medium.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 16, 2008)

Boost the Int, but it doesn't need Improved Trip if it has the tripping ability of a wolf.


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## Shade (Sep 16, 2008)

Updated.



			
				demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> Boost the Int, but it doesn't need Improved Trip if it has the tripping ability of a wolf.




We thought to retain it for the +4 bonus on its Strength check to trip.   Do you think that's overkill?  Its modifier kind of sucks otherwise.

CR 6?


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## freyar (Sep 16, 2008)

Well, I suppose we could give it a racial bonus on trip checks.  But no other feats are immediately obvious, so Improved Trip works for me.

Yeah, probably CR 6.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 16, 2008)

Ooh, good point. Let's keep it, then.


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## Shade (Sep 16, 2008)

Taking a brief break from the elementals of law and chaos due to a request...

*Shark-Kin*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any ocean
FREQUENCY: Common
ORGANIZATION: Tribal
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Average (8-10)
TREASURE: U
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1d4x20
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVEMENT: Sw 24
HIT DICE: 2
THACO: 19
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3 or 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d3 (claw)/1d3 (claw)/1d6 (bite) or 1d6 (bite) and by weapon
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M (6’-7’ long)
MORALE: Steady (12)

These nomadic marine humanoids have large, staring eyes, fin-crested heads, and scaly skin. Their hands and feet are webbed and clawed. A shark-kin’s legs are vestigial; the creature swims by means of its powerful, alligatorlike tail.

Most shark-kin are reddish brown, though some are dark blue or blue-black. Their skin is usually covered with patterns of spots or bands of lighter color-white or yellow in reddish-brown individuals, silver, light blue, or mettalic green in blue or blue-black shark-kin.  Each individual’s pattern of spots or bands is unique.

A shark-kin’s eyes have a reflective laver that concentrates any available light. This allows them to see well even in dark or murky water; it also makes their eyes seem to glow, like a cat’s, when bright light strikes them.

Adult shark-kin of both sexes are between 6 and 7 feet long, measured from nose to tail, and weigh 190 to 250 pounds. Most live to be 120 years old, though some individuals have been known to live twice that long.

Shark-kin speak their own tongue; 40% also speak Common or the tongue of another ocean race.

Combat: Shark-kin are aggressive hunters but usually avoid combat with intelligent species, attacking only in self defense or to defend their territory. Adult shark-kin carry javelins and tridents. One out of every four in a hunting or war party also carries a net. Unarmed shark-kin attack with claws and bite; those carrying a weapon can both attack with the weapon and bite in the same round.

The most important part of any group’s defense is its pack of pet sharks. Each shark-kin tribe maintains a pack of 4d6 sharks, one for every two or three adult shark-kin: 25% of the sharks in the pack have 7 or 8 Hit Dice, 25% have 5 or 6 Hit Dice, and the remainder have 3 or 4 Hit Dice. If the shark-kin tribe numbers 50 or more, one of their sharks will be a giant specimen with 10 to 12 Hit Dice. Shark-kin have an empathic link with their sharks and can give them basic commands (such as come, go, turn, stop, and attack) at a range of 360 yards.

In battle, shark-kin and their sharks attack on a broad front, trying to surround their foes in all three dimensions. Then, at a sign from their elder, they all converge on a single point in the enemy ranks, trying to fight as few foes as possible with as many allies as possible.

Habitat/Society: Shark-kin live in tribal groups led by an elder with 3 Hit Dice. Each tribe claims a territory covering about 120 square miles, which they vigorously defend from all other ocean races. They tend to be hospitable to strangers, but visitors are not encouraged to stay long. No outsider is allowed to hunt in their territory or to take anything from it without permission from the tribal elder. Shark-kin tend to be very possessive of any shipwrecks in their temtory, as these usually act as artificial reefs teeming with sea life. Adventurers seeking salvage rights must be prepared to bargain well or fight hard.

Shark-kin spend their time foraging and hunting for food or caring for their sharks, who serve them much as hunting dogs serve humans. If the hunting in an area is particularly good, such as near a spawning ground for fish, a shark-kin tribe will construct temporaly homes out of whatever materials are at hand and settle down as long as the bounty lasts. Otherwise they never stay in one area within their territory for long.

If a tribe’s elder is killed or dies, the surviving adults undergo a mysterious change. Over the next few weeks, their legs grow and their gills change to allow them to breathe both air and water.  This change (which sages believe is a throwback to the races' ancient terrestrial origins) allows the shark-kin to move on land as easily as a human.  The tribe's senior adults (10 +1d10 individuals of both sexes) walk ashore and head to a traditional site, usually a hilltop or mountain, where they conduct an age-old ceremony to select a new elder.  Thereafter, the group returns to the sea and all the skark-kin revert to their normal forms.

Ecology:  Shark-kin eat whatever seafood they can catch.  Fish and mollusks form the basis of their diet, though they also prey upon sea mammals when they are available.

Originally appeared in AC9 - Creature Catalogue (1986).


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## freyar (Sep 17, 2008)

I gotta go with Monstrous Humanoid (aquatic), but I could be convinced possibly to go for Humanoid by someone persuasive enough...

Pretty straightforward: bite & 2 claws; javelin, trident, and/or net; the empathic link to the sharks might be trickiest but could probably be modeled on a wizard's familiar.  We should definitely up some of the sharks in the organization line to the dire variety.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 17, 2008)

Sahuagin get some shark empathy, don't they?

And the lack of working legs, plus the transformation for dispersal, makes me think monstrous humanoid or magical beast.


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## Shade (Sep 17, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> Sahuagin get some shark empathy, don't they?




Sure enough.

Speak with Sharks (Ex): Sahuagin can communicate telepathically with sharks up to 150 feet away. The communication is limited to fairly simple concepts such as “food,” “danger,” and “enemy.” Sahuagin can use the Handle Animal skill to befriend and train sharks.

*A sahuagin has a +4 racial bonus on Handle Animal checks when working with sharks.

I'm leaning toward monstrous humanoid.


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## freyar (Sep 17, 2008)

Let's go monstrous humanoid.  They seem too humanoid to be magical beasts.

Seems like we can pretty much copy that from sahuagin.

Not much to go on for abilities.  Sahuagin at same HD are Str 14, Dex 13, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 13, Cha 9.  To distinguish these, maybe slightly greater Str and less Dex (could then leave natural AC at +5 like sahuagin or drop it and give them leather or something).  Lower Int and Wis, better Cha?  So something like Str 16, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 11?


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## Shade (Sep 17, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Sep 17, 2008)

Weapons mentioned are javelin, trident, and/or net.  I'd say trident for melee and net for ranged.  

Would these take penalties for using weapons underwater, or do they avoid that for being aquatic?  Can't remember.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 18, 2008)

Aquatic creatures don't take penalties for fighting underwater with piercing weapons. So trident is wise.


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## Shade (Sep 18, 2008)

> A shark-kin’s eyes have a reflective laver that concentrates any available light. This allows them to see well even in dark or murky water; it also makes their eyes seem to glow, like a cat’s, when bright light strikes them.






			
				DMG said:
			
		

> Stealth and Detection Underwater: How far you can see underwater depends on the water’s clarity. As a guideline, creatures can see 4d8×10 feet if the water is clear, and 1d8×10 feet if it’s murky. Moving water is always murky, unless it’s in a particularly large, slow-moving river.




How's this?

"Murkvision" (Ex):  A shark-kin's vision is not limited in dark or murky water.  It treats all water as clear water for purposes of determining vision.



> Shark-kin speak their own tongue; 40% also speak Common or the tongue of another ocean race.




Shark-kin speak their own language.  Many also learn Common and Aquan?



> Habitat/Society: Shark-kin live in tribal groups led by an elder with 3 Hit Dice.




Advance by Hit Dice or character class?



> If a tribe’s elder is killed or dies, the surviving adults undergo a mysterious change. Over the next few weeks, their legs grow and their gills change to allow them to breathe both air and water. This change (which sages believe is a throwback to the races' ancient terrestrial origins) allows the shark-kin to move on land as easily as a human. The tribe's senior adults (10 +1d10 individuals of both sexes) walk ashore and head to a traditional site, usually a hilltop or mountain, where they conduct an age-old ceremony to select a new elder. Thereafter, the group returns to the sea and all the skark-kin revert to their normal forms.




Flavor text?


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## freyar (Sep 18, 2008)

Murkvision is good!  Languages are good.

Sahuagin are once again the precedent for this advancement.  I'd say 3-4 HD (Medium), 5-6 HD (Large) or by character class.

I agree that the bit about choosing a new elder is good as flavor, but we should have a sidebar or something for the amphibious shark-kin.  Maybe just say that they gain the amphibious subtype and a 20 ft land speed?


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 18, 2008)

I'd say 30 foot ("as easily as a human..."), but yeah, sidebar sounds good.


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## freyar (Sep 18, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> I'd say 30 foot ("as easily as a human..."), but yeah, sidebar sounds good.



You're right, 30 ft works for me.

Anything else left (besides tactics and flavor) before we hit skills and feats?


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## Shade (Sep 19, 2008)

Updated.

Skills: 10

Feats: 1

Organization: Solitary or tribe (20-80 plus 1 elder plus x sharks and x dire sharks)

Challenge Rating: 2?  (They can deal out quite a bit of damage in a round)

Treasure: No coins; standard goods; standard items?  (U is no coins, 2-16 gems, 1-6 objects, Any 1 magic item)

Alignment: Usually neutral?

Shall we add an "as characters" section?


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## freyar (Sep 22, 2008)

Spot 5, Handle Animal 5?
Stealthy?
2d12 sharks and 2d6 dire sharks?
Yes.
Yes.
Sure.  Favored class ranger?


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## Knightfall (Sep 22, 2008)

Shark-Kin! Woohoo!

I'll be swiping this one for Kulan.


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## freyar (Sep 22, 2008)

Knightfall1972 said:


> Shark-Kin! Woohoo!
> 
> I'll be swiping this one for Kulan.



 Got any suggestions?


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## Shade (Sep 23, 2008)

Updated.

I went with Multitattack since they have the bite and 2 claws.

Wanna give them scent, since sharks have the keen scent?

Suggested domains for clerics?


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## freyar (Sep 23, 2008)

Looking good!  Scent is a good idea, too.

How about Animal, Community, Strength, and Water?


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## Shade (Sep 23, 2008)

Updated.

Anything left?


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## freyar (Sep 23, 2008)

Looks good!  We should let Whitemouse know...


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## Shade (Oct 3, 2008)

*Vampire, Lesser*
AC: 3
Level: 5+3
THAC0: 14
Actions: 1
Damage: 1d4+2
Alt. Attack: Drain (target loses 1 point of Constitution per round)
Sp. Defense: None
Saving Throw: 14
Move: 12, Fly 12
Intelligence: High
Attitude: Hostile
Size: 6' tall
Experience: 3,000

This undead beast looks human until it attacks; then its true form is revealed. It casts no reflection, moves silently, and is destroyed by sunlight. Its powerful fists cause 1d4+2 damage. If it uses a weapon, it receives a +1 to hit and +2 to damage. Most fearsome is its ability to drain Constitution points. It must hit successfully to drain Constitution. A target reduced to 0 Constitution dies and becomes a lesser vampire.

Originally appeared in Dungeons and Dragons Adventure Game Rules Book (1999).


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## Shade (Oct 3, 2008)

A lesser version of vampire spawn?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 3, 2008)

I think this is a precursor to the vampire spawn we know and love today; as such, I don't know if it needs converting.


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## Echohawk (Oct 3, 2008)

That's entirely possible. That 1999 D&D set has some odd hybrid rules and creatures (particularly the lesser vampire and deadly pudding) which almost-but-not-quite match earlier or later creatures.


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## freyar (Oct 6, 2008)

Well, I could go either way, but maybe we should convert it for "horror month."  We can play up the "looks almost human" bit as a difference perhaps.


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## Shade (Oct 6, 2008)

I could go either way on it as well.

It does appear to lack the spawn's domination, energy drain, fast healing, gaseous form, and spider climb, so it could fill a niche as "low-level vampire brute".


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## freyar (Oct 6, 2008)

Probably quite low level.  It has more HD than vampire spawn, if I read that correctly, but it should be quite a bit less powerful.

Copying from the vampire spawn, we have something like:
Medium Undead 
Hit Dice: 5d12+3 (35 hp) 
Initiative: +6 
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares) 
Armor Class: 15 (+2 Dex, +3 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 13 
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+5 
Attack: Slam +5 melee (1d6+4 plus energy drain) 
Full Attack: Slam +5 melee (1d6+4)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. 
Special Attacks: Blood drain
Special Qualities: +2 turn resistance, damage reduction 5/silver, darkvision 60 ft., resistance to cold 10 and electricity 10, undead traits 
Saves: Fort +1, Ref +5, Will +5 
Abilities: Str 16, Dex 14, Con —, Int 13, Wis 13, Cha 14 
Skills: Bluff +6, Climb +8, Craft or Profession (any one) +4, Diplomacy +4, Hide +10, Jump +8, Listen +11, Move Silently +10, Search +8, Sense Motive +11, Spot +11 (+5 ranks)
Feats: AlertnessB, Improved InitiativeB, Lightning ReflexesB, Skill Focus (selected Craft or Profession skill), Toughness 
Environment: Any 
Organization: Solitary or pack (2–5) 
Challenge Rating: X 
Treasure: Standard 
Alignment: Always evil (any) 
Advancement: — 
Level Adjustment: —

If we're aiming for lower level, I say we drop the resistances (at least to electricity) and remove or reduce the DR.  We may also want to reduce some of the abilities (which could affect the skill rank calculation).  I'd probably give them a racial bonus on Disguise checks to appear as living humanoids, and we could give them Imp Grab to make the blood drain a little easier for them.  If we make them a different type of vampire (rather than just a weaker vamp), we could justify some advancement, too.


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## Shade (Oct 7, 2008)

OK, then modifying it further...

Lesser Vampire
Medium Undead 
Hit Dice: 5d12 (32 hp) 
Initiative: +2
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares) 
Armor Class: 15 (+2 Dex, +3 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 13 
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+5 
Attack: Slam +5 melee (1d6+4) 
Full Attack: Slam +5 melee (1d6+4)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. 
Special Attacks: Blood drain
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., undead traits 
Saves: Fort +1, Ref +3, Will +5 
Abilities: Str 16, Dex 14, Con —, Int 13, Wis 13, Cha 14 
Skills: 40
Feats: 2 
Environment: Any 
Organization: Solitary or pack (2–5) 
Challenge Rating: X 
Treasure: Standard 
Alignment: Always evil (any) 
Advancement: — 
Level Adjustment: —

Blood Drain (Ex): A lesser vampire can suck blood from a living victim with its fangs by making a successful grapple check. If it pins the foe, it drains blood, dealing 1d4 points of Constitution drain each round. On each such successful drain attack, the lesser vampire gains 5 temporary hit points.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a lesser vampire must hit a Large or smaller opponent with a slam attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can attempt to drain blood. 

Skills:  *A lesser vampire gains a +X racial bonus on Disguise checks made to impersonate a living humanoid.


Also, note that the stat block has a fly speed.  I'm guessing some sort of supernatural flight?


----------



## freyar (Oct 8, 2008)

Yes on the Su flight.  The original AC is also higher.  Want to increase Dex and reduce Str?  Maybe Str 14, Dex 16?  And add 1 to natural armor.

Let's make the disguise bonus +4.


----------



## Shade (Oct 8, 2008)

Agreed with everything except the Str reduction.  These guys seem even more brutish than standard spawn, due to lack of other abilities.

Added to Homebrews.


----------



## freyar (Oct 8, 2008)

Fair.  I'm just not sure if these are going to end up almost as tough as vampire spawn anyway.

Shall we put in all the usual vampire weaknesses?

Skills: max Bluff, Disguise, Intimidate, Listen, Spot?  (Make use of that Cha.)  I could also see putting ranks into things like Tumble or Balance.

Good brute feats: Power Attack and Cleave?


----------



## Shade (Oct 8, 2008)

Before we move on to skills (I like your suggestions), which of these should we retain?

Skills: Vampire spawn have a +4 racial bonus on Bluff, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot checks.

Do we want to keep any of the spawn's bonus feats?  Alertness (B), Improved Initiative (B), Lightning Reflexes (B)



> Repelling a Vampire: Vampires cannot tolerate the strong odor of garlic and will not enter an area laced with it. Similarly, they recoil from a mirror or a strongly presented holy symbol. These things don’t harm the vampire—they merely keep it at bay. A recoiling vampire must stay at least 5 feet away from a creature holding the mirror or holy symbol and cannot touch or make melee attacks against the creature holding the item for the rest of the encounter. Holding a vampire at bay takes a standard action.
> 
> Vampires are also unable to cross running water, although they can be carried over it while resting in their coffins or aboard a ship.
> 
> ...




I'd say we definitely keep the sunlight effects, since it is mentioned in the writeup.  What of the rest shall we keep?


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## freyar (Oct 9, 2008)

If these are supposed to be weaker than or similar to vampire spawn, we should keep all of it (except for the part about 0hp, 'cause these don't have fast healing anyway).  

Let's keep the racial bonuses to Bluff, Hide, Move Silently, and Sense Motive.  I don't want to keep all the bonus feats, but I could go up to 2 of them.


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## Shade (Oct 9, 2008)

Updated.

Good maneuverability for flight?

Want to increase the pack size?

CR 3?  They seem about comparable to wights.

Lesser vampires speak Common?

For the flavor text, any suggestions on how they come to exist, what niche they fit in the vampire hierarchy, and so forth?


----------



## freyar (Oct 9, 2008)

Let's just give them average maneuverability unless you particularly care for good.  I just don't really see them as hovering.  We could also switch a feat to Flyby Attack.

We could go with 3d4 as pack size.

CR 3 is good.  They're also a touch weaker than vampire spawn.

Common is good.

Perhaps there are some vampire spawn that can create spawn themselves?  Though that doesn't exactly explain the different SAs.  We've been approaching them as the weakest of the vampires, and perhaps they are the most social (others certainly usually have the "loner" feel).  What do you think?


----------



## Shade (Oct 10, 2008)

All sounds good.

As I'm typing up some flavor text, I'm started to wonder if we shouldn't give them the create spawn ability.  They fill a nice niche for low-levels, and could resemble the "foot soldier" types of vampires found on shows like Buffy or movies like 30 days of night.  Since vampire spawn cannot create more of their kind, these could be a nice alternative to the "tough vampire and his spawn" scenario, instead allowing for packs of near-equals.

Thoughts?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Oct 10, 2008)

I like the idea that vampires create lesser vampires as foot soldiers, scouts and spies. They're perhaps less free-willed than vampire spawn, and their lack of a dominate gaze prevents them from following their own agendas. 

I'm not sure I like the idea of them creating spawn, though.


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## freyar (Oct 11, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> I like the idea that vampires create lesser vampires as foot soldiers, scouts and spies. They're perhaps less free-willed than vampire spawn, and their lack of a dominate gaze prevents them from following their own agendas.
> 
> I'm not sure I like the idea of them creating spawn, though.



I also like this flavor idea.

Regarding spawning: perhaps they can create spawn, but only through a longer ritual?  We could allow all vampires or vampire spawn to use this ritual to create lesser vampires as well.


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## Shade (Oct 13, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> I like the idea that vampires create lesser vampires as foot soldiers, scouts and spies. They're perhaps less free-willed than vampire spawn, and their lack of a dominate gaze prevents them from following their own agendas.
> 
> I'm not sure I like the idea of them creating spawn, though.




I like those suggestions!



freyar said:


> I also like this flavor idea.
> 
> Regarding spawning: perhaps they can create spawn, but only through a longer ritual?  We could allow all vampires or vampire spawn to use this ritual to create lesser vampires as well.




How about something like this?

Many vampires have the ability to create lesser vampires rather than (or in addition to) vampire spawn. They are less free-willed than vampire spawn, and their lack of a dominate gaze prevents them from following their own agendas. As such, they make excellent foot soldiers, scouts and spies for the more powerful vampires.  And since lesser vampires lack the ability to create spawn, a master can keep their numbers in check.  

Occasionally packs of lesser vampires break away from their progenitors, perhaps due to the master's death.   Although they are usually content to simply roam about and feed, the rare individual with a spark of ambition may lead a pack to capture a true vampire, which is then forced to "breed" others of their kind.


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## freyar (Oct 14, 2008)

I like it!


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 14, 2008)

Looks good to me too.


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## Shade (Oct 14, 2008)

Updated.

All done?


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## freyar (Oct 15, 2008)

In the Flight (Su) listing in the text, you need to state the maneuverability (average).  Other than that, it looks good.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 15, 2008)

freyar said:


> In the Flight (Su) listing in the text, you need to state the maneuverability (average).  Other than that, it looks good.




I thought they had good maneuverability?


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## Shade (Oct 15, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> I thought they had good maneuverability?




A manueverability wasn't listed in the orginal, and Freyar suggested average.  I'm fine with average or good...no strong preference either way.   Your thoughts?


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## freyar (Oct 15, 2008)

Well, like I said above, the idea of these things just sort of hovering around strikes me as a bit silly (which they'd be able to do with good).  So that's why I prefer average.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 15, 2008)

I think the reason they can fly at all is due to the TV Movie "Salem's Lot", the most famous scene of which featured hovering vampires. I say go for Good maneuverability.


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## freyar (Oct 15, 2008)

Ok, that's good enough for me, then.


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## Shade (Oct 15, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> I think the reason they can fly at all is due to the TV Movie "Salem's Lot", the most famous scene of which featured hovering vampires. I say go for Good maneuverability.




Ooh...I still remember that creepy kid floating outside his friend's window.  

Are we finished now?


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## freyar (Oct 15, 2008)

Just change average to good in the speed line and put good in the Flight SA listing, and it's done.


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## Shade (Oct 15, 2008)

Done.


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## Mortis (Oct 17, 2008)

Hi guys 

Long time no see 

I've had limited internet access for a while now but haven't been able to get through the database problems 

So what's next?

Regards
Mortis


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## Echohawk (Oct 17, 2008)

Yay! Good to have you back, Mortis .


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## Shade (Oct 17, 2008)

Welcome back!  We're glad to have you back!


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## freyar (Oct 17, 2008)

Definitely welcome back!


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## Shade (Oct 23, 2008)

I know the following creatures have already been converted elsewhere, but I think they might make fine templates...

*Wyrd, Lesser*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Forest, ruins
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Night
DIET: Nil
INTELLIGENCE: Low (5-7)
TREASURE: B
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil
NO. APPEARING: 1d6
ARMOR CLASS: 4
MOVEMENT: 12
HIT DICE: 4
THAC0: 17
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d6 (sphere)/1d6 (sphere)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M (6’ tall)
MORALE: Fearless (20)
XP VALUE: 420

*Wyrd, Greater*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Forest, ruins
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Night
DIET: Nil
INTELLIGENCE: Average (8-10)
TREASURE: B
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil
NO. APPEARING: 1d2
ARMOR CLASS: 0
MOVEMENT: 12, Fl 24 (B)
HIT DICE: 8
THAC0: 13
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d10 (sphere)/ 1d10 (sphere)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Paralysis, chill
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M (6’ tall)
MORALE: Fearless (20)
XP VALUE: 5,000

Wyrds are undead creatures with strong connections to the Positive Energy Plane.  They are created when an evil spirit inhabits the dead body of an elf.

Wyrds appear as immaterial figures clad in dark, hooded robes.  A dark, skeletal face is faintly visible in the depths of the hood.  A wyrd’s feet appear to be booted; its hands have flesh but are thin and gnarled.  A wyrd holds a small red or green sphere, about the size of a grapefruit, in the palm of each hand.  The spheres glow faintly, like the last embers of a dying fire.

Combat:  A lesser wyrd can create two glowing red spheres each round.  It can use its spheres as hand-to-hand weapons, or It can hurl them (range 30/60/90), or it can use one sphere for hand-to-hand combat and throw the other. When a sphere strikes a target, it bursts with a small thunderclap and a flash of brilliant energy that inflicts 1d6 points of damage on the target creature (1d6+3 points of damage if the victim is an elf). When a sphere explodes, a replacement instantly appears in the wyrd's hand, but the wyrd can never create more than two spheres per round, even if affected by a haste spell.

Wyrds can be harmed only be silver or magical weapons.  Being undead, they move silently and are immune to poison and to sleep, charm, and hold spells.

A wyrd can be turned as a wraith.

Wyrds prefer to attack from a distance, concentrating on elves and on any character capable of returning the attack.  Creatures killed by a wyrd tend to be badly burned by the energy spheres but can be raised normally; they do not return from death as undead.

Habitat/Society: W yrds can be found haunting caves, ruins, and forests. During daylight, a wyrd retreats lnto a dense thicket of undergrowth or into a lightless crypt or cave.  Like most undead, wyrds loathe the living and relentlessly attack any creature they encounter. Forest-dwelling wyrds are a particular bane to good sylvan creatures such as unicorns and dryads, and these creatures do not hesitate to destroy a wyrd just as soon as they can muster enough force to do so. Elves, for obvious reasons, despise wyrds and try to see that they are destroyed as quickly as possible.

Ecology: Except for their propensity to kill, wyrds have no role in the ecology.

The process that creates wyrds is a mystery.  It seems to be clear, however, that the spirit that animates a wyrd prefers to occupy elves who have died violently and been left unburied.  Elves who have been abandoned by their fellow elves and left to die alone seem to be the most likely to become wyrds.  Certain locales near places of ancient evil, such as ruined temples, battlefields where evil forces were victorious, and scenes of great treachery also seem to be prone to produce wyrds.

Greater Wyrd
This more hideous variety of wyrd, created when an undead spirit occupies the body of an exceptionally high-level elf, is justifiably feared.  Any creature viewing a greater wyrd must make a successful saving throw vs. spell or be stricken with a dreadful chill that causes a -3 penalty to all attack and damage rolls when fighting the wyrd (successful attacks always inflict at least 1 point of damage).  The penalty remains in force until the greater wyrd is destroyed, until the next sunrise, or until the victim receives a remove curse spell from a caster of at least 9th level.  The victim, however, is still vulnerable and must roll another saving throw if the greater wyrd appears again, whereas those who make successful saving throws when first confronting the wyrd are immune to the effect until the next sunset.

A greater wyrd’s globes glow a sickly green.  They explode for 1d10 points of damage when they hit, and the victim must make a successful saving throw vs. paralyzation or be paralyzed for 2d4 turns (elves suffer 1d10+5 points of damage from each globe but are immune to the paralyzation effect).

Greater wyrds are turned as ghosts.

Like the lesser wyrd, the greater wyrd can be hit only by magical or silver weapons and is immune to poison and to sleep, charm, and hold spells.

Originally appeared in B10 - Night's Dark Terror (1986) and later in Mystara Monstrous Compendium Appendix (1994).


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## freyar (Oct 23, 2008)

Hmm, if we're doing templates for these, we could do a single template and specify extra benefits at specific HD levels.  I assume the template would apply to humanoid (elf) only?


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## Shade (Oct 23, 2008)

freyar said:


> Hmm, if we're doing templates for these, we could do a single template and specify extra benefits at specific HD levels.  I assume the template would apply to humanoid (elf) only?




That is exactly what I was thinking!


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## freyar (Oct 23, 2008)

Ok, then, ability bonuses are probably best the same all across the board.  Maybe +4 Cha, Con -.  Any other bonuses?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 24, 2008)

An increase to Dex seems like a sound investment, as their primary attack is thrown weapons. Do we want to treat that like a ranged touch attack, or like a burst with a Reflex save?


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## Mortis (Oct 24, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> An increase to Dex seems like a sound investment, as their primary attack is thrown weapons.



I agree with Demiurge on this; +4 Dex?

I was going to suggest making them incorporeal as they are described as being 'immaterial' but on reflection I think that was just a flavour thing.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Wyrds are undead creatures with strong connections to the Positive Energy Plane.



Is this right? Seems strange 

Regards
Mortis


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## freyar (Oct 24, 2008)

In addition to the +2 Dex they already have for being elves?  I could see +4, but maybe +2 is ok too.

I read the globes more like a ranged touch, but I could be convinced of a small burst.  I also get the impression that they are melee weapons (touch attack again), which is less bursty.

The positive energy bit is weird, but I'm thinking the globes are the reason.


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## Shade (Oct 24, 2008)

Mortis said:


> Is this right? Seems strange




Indeed!  And that's why I find them so interesting.  

They're a bit like deathless, but mostly not.


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## Shade (Oct 27, 2008)

I think the +4 Dex should work out fine, as these things have good AC, but doubtfully have natural armor and don't appear to wear armor.

I'm thinking globes should be melee and ranged touch weapons, 1d6 points of damage for lesser, 1d10 for greater.  Positive energy damage?



> A wyrd can be turned as a wraith.




That's +2 turn resistance.



> Greater wyrds are turned as ghosts.




And that's +4.

Should we make them harmed by negative energy and healed by positive energy, similar to deathless, due to their ties to the Positive Energy plane?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 27, 2008)

Could we go ahead and make them deathless, albeit evil ones?


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## Echohawk (Oct 27, 2008)

As the least well-represented creature type, I'm always in favour of more Deathless


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## Shade (Oct 27, 2008)

I thought about deathless, but a few traits made me hesitate...

Evil clerics can turn or destroy deathless creatures as good clerics turn or destroy undead. Good clerics and paladins can rebuke, command, or bolster deathless.

Deathless creatures gain the same benefits from consecrate and hallow spells as undead do by desecrate and unhallow spells, and they are hindered by desecrate and unhallow spells as undead are by consecrate and hallow. 

Evil casters can be stunned by overwhelming auras of deathless creatures as good casters can be stunned by overwhelming undead auras. Use the "evil elemental or undead" line in the detect evil spell description when deathless are in the area of a detect good spell. 

Deathless are healed by disrupt undead and damaged by unholy water as undead are damaged by holy water. Deathless are not affected by disrupting weapons. Spells that have greater than normal effect against undead creatures--including chill touch, magic stone, searing light, sunbeam, and wall of fire--do not have these enhanced effects against deathless creatures. Deathless take only 1d6 points of damage per two caster levels from searing light. Spells such as command undead, control undead, create undead, create greater undead, and halt undead do not affect or create deathless creatures.


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## Echohawk (Oct 27, 2008)

Drat. Now I don't think these should be Deathless after all


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 27, 2008)

Hm. Fair enough. How about an "in between the dark and the light" SQ that explains how they overlap a bit with deathless.

The graveyard sludge from MMV has the "between worlds" SQ, which gives it healing from both positive and negative energy.


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## freyar (Oct 28, 2008)

That sounds like a good solution to me.


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## Shade (Oct 28, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> Hm. Fair enough. How about an "in between the dark and the light" SQ that explains how they overlap a bit with deathless.
> 
> The graveyard sludge from MMV has the "between worlds" SQ, which gives it healing from both positive and negative energy.




I think that sounds like a good approach.  So, getting started...

In Between the Dark and the Light (Ex):  Although undead, wyrds are strongly tied to the Positive Energy Plane, and thus are harmed by negative energy and healed by positive energy.  

What other changes should that include?


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## freyar (Oct 29, 2008)

I don't know if we need to state it there, but their ball-weapons should do positive energy damage.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 29, 2008)

But positive energy = healing. Unless we want to do the "too many hit points and you explode", like the Positive Energy Plane.

I'd think of it more like a sunbeam spell. Too bad "radiant" is a 4e keyword only...


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## freyar (Oct 29, 2008)

Hmmm, too true.  Untyped, then?  I like the exploding kind of idea, but that would be hard to get to, I think.


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## Shade (Oct 29, 2008)

I think the searing light comparison makes sense, so it is damage caused by "intense light".

Added to Homebrews.

Here's a draft of the spheres ability...

Light Spheres (Su):  As a swift action, a wyrd may create a pair of glowing spheres of intense light.  These spheres may be wielded as melee weapons, and the wyrd may fight with one in each hand at no penalty.   A sphere may also be hurled as a ranged touch attack, with a range of 60 feet and a 30-foot range increment.

A lesser wyrd's spheres are glowing red and deal 1d6 points of damage.  A greater wyrd's spheres glow a sickly green and deal 1d10 points of damage and expose the target to its paralysis (see below).

Should the spheres deal extra damage to undead, more to light-vulnerable undead, and less to constructs and objects, like the searing light spell?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 29, 2008)

I think so.


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## freyar (Oct 29, 2008)

Yes, but probably wyrds should be immune to damage from light spheres.


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## Shade (Oct 29, 2008)

Revising...

Light Spheres (Su): As a swift action, a wyrd may create a pair of glowing spheres of intense light. These spheres may be wielded as melee weapons, and the wyrd may fight with one in each hand at no penalty. A sphere may also be hurled as a ranged touch attack, with a range of 60 feet and a 30-foot range increment.

A lesser wyrd's spheres are glowing red and deal 1d6 points of damage. A greater wyrd's spheres glow a sickly green and deal 1d10 points of damage and expose the target to its paralysis (see below).

Elves and undead creatures take half again as much (+50%) damage from a wyrd's light spheres, while elves or undead creatures particularly vulnerable to bright light (such as drow or vampires) take double damage. A construct or inanimate object takes only half damage.

Wyrds are immune to the effects of light spheres.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 29, 2008)

Looks good! We might also want to give wyrds a quality that makes them not count as undead for the purposes of light-based spells that deal extra damage to the undead.


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## Shade (Oct 29, 2008)

Good suggestions.  Like so?

Lightborn (Ex):  Wyrds do not count as undead for the purposes of light-based spells that deal extra damage to undead creatures, such as _searing light_.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 29, 2008)

Looks good!


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## freyar (Oct 30, 2008)

I like it too.  We could fold it into the "between light and dark" SQ, if you want.


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## Shade (Oct 30, 2008)

Good idea.

Updated.



> Wyrds can be harmed only be silver or magical weapons. Being undead, they move silently and are immune to poison and to sleep, charm, and hold spells.






> Like the lesser wyrd, the greater wyrd can be hit only by magical or silver weapons and is immune to poison and to sleep, charm, and hold spells.




Racial bonus on Move Silently checks?

DR 5/magic or silver for the lesser?   DR 5/magic and silver for the greater?  Or DR 10/magic or silver?



> This more hideous variety of wyrd, created when an undead spirit occupies the body of an exceptionally high-level elf, is justifiably feared.




For the creating section, should we state that an elf of x or fewer HD/levels becomes a lesser wyrd, and the rest become greater wyrds?



> Any creature viewing a greater wyrd must make a successful saving throw vs. spell or be stricken with a dreadful chill that causes a -3 penalty to all attack and damage rolls when fighting the wyrd (successful attacks always inflict at least 1 point of damage). The penalty remains in force until the greater wyrd is destroyed, until the next sunrise, or until the victim receives a remove curse spell from a caster of at least 9th level. The victim, however, is still vulnerable and must roll another saving throw if the greater wyrd appears again, whereas those who make successful saving throws when first confronting the wyrd are immune to the effect until the next sunset.




Something like this...

Dreadful Presence (Su):  A creature who views a wyrd must succeed on a DC X Will save or be filled with chilling dread.  The affected creature suffers a -3 penalty on attack rolls and damage rolls for 24 hours.  The dread effect can also be broken with break enchantment or remove curse (requiring a DC 20 caster level check for either spell).  A creature that successfully saves cannot be affected again by the same wyrd's dreadful presence ability for 24 hours. 



> A greater wyrd’s globes glow a sickly green. They explode for 1d10 points of damage when they hit, and the victim must make a successful saving throw vs. paralyzation or be paralyzed for 2d4 turns (elves suffer 1d10+5 points of damage from each globe but are immune to the paralyzation effect).




Paralysis (Su):  A creature struck by a greater wyrd's light spheres must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or be paralyzed for x minutes.  Elves are immune to this paralysis.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 30, 2008)

That all looks good.

What's a wight's racial bonus on Move Silently? +4 or +8?


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## Shade (Oct 30, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> What's a wight's racial bonus on Move Silently? +4 or +8?




Its' +8. Same here?


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## freyar (Oct 30, 2008)

Same here.  

Let's go DR 10/magic or silver for the greater, I think.  This goes along with my HD guess: 7 or fewer HD are lesser wyrds, 8 or more are greater wyrds.  I think advancement should be as base creature with the notation that a lesser wyrd that advances to 8HD becomes a greater wyrd.

The rest is good, and I'd go with +8 Move Silently, sure.


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## Shade (Oct 30, 2008)

Updated.

Duration for greater wyrd's paralysis?  It was originally 10 to 40 minutes.

Environment: Any?

Organization: Solitary or x (2-6)(lesser) or solitary or pair (greater)?

Challenge Rating: Same as the base creature +1 (lesser) or same as the base creature +2 (greater)?

Treasure: Standard?
Type B = 1,000-6,000 cp, 1,000-3,000 sp, 200-2,000 gp, 100-1,000 pp, 1-8 gems, 1-4 objects, Armor + Weapon for items

Level Adjustment: Same as the base creature +3 (lesser) or same as the base creature +5 (greater)?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 30, 2008)

I like 1d4x10 minutes for the paralysis. Is nasty. Agreed to CR, standard treasure.


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## freyar (Oct 31, 2008)

Also agreed to all of that.  Maybe the lesser wyrd's organization could be a cabal?


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## Shade (Oct 31, 2008)

Sounds good.  Updated.

Ready for sample creatures?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 31, 2008)

Yes. Yes we are.


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## freyar (Oct 31, 2008)

One lesser, one greater?  Maybe start with an elf ranger 4 then advance to elf ranger 9?


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## Shade (Oct 31, 2008)

Sure.  Wood elf?


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## freyar (Oct 31, 2008)

Good idea to spice that up...


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## Shade (Oct 31, 2008)

Here's a start...

*Wood Elf 4th-Level Ranger*
Medium Humanoid (Elf)
Hit Dice: 4d8 (18 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 15 (+3 Dex, +2 leather), touch 13, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+7
Attack: Longsword +7 melee (1d8+3/19–20) or longbow +7 ranged (1d8/x3)
Full Attack: Longsword +7 melee (1d8+3/19–20) or longbow +7 ranged (1d8/x3)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Favored enemy (x), spells
Special Qualities: Animal companion, elven traits, wild empathy
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +7, Will +2
Abilities: Str 16, Dex 16, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 8
Skills: 6 at 7 ranks
Feats: Endurance (B), Track (B), 1 combat style, 2 more
Environment: Temperate forest
Organization: x
Challenge Rating: 4
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Usually neutral
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +0

Ranger Spells Prepared: (Caster level 2nd, save DC = 11 + spell level)
1st—longstrider.

The elf ranger presented here had the following ability scores before racial adjustments and 4th-level ability score increase: Str 14, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 12, Wis 13, Cha 8.


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## freyar (Oct 31, 2008)

Let's assume she took her first favored enemy before becoming a wyrd, so favored enemy (humanoid (orc)) is nice and stereotypical.  Or I could see magical beast.

Skills: Survival, Knowledge (nature), Climb, Move Silently, Ride, Swim (maxed out)?  I could see swapping Ride for something like Jump or Spot.

Feats: Rapid Shot (to get both light balls off at once ); Point Blank Shot, Far Shot?


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## Shade (Nov 9, 2008)

Lesser Wyrd, Wood Elf 4th-Level Ranger
Medium Undead (Augmented Humanoid [Elf])
Hit Dice: 4d12 (26 hp)
Initiative: +5
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 17 (+5 Dex, +2 leather), touch 15, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+7
Attack: Longsword +7 melee (1d8+3/19–20) or light sphere +7 melee (1d6) or longbow +9 ranged (1d8/x3) or light sphere +9 ranged (1d6)
Full Attack: Longsword +7 melee (1d8+3/19–20) or light sphere +7 melee (1d6) or longbow +9 ranged (1d8/x3) or light sphere +9 ranged (1d6)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Favored enemy (humanoid [orc]), light spheres, spells
Special Qualities: Animal companion, damage reduction 5/magic or silver, elven traits, in between the dark and the light, +2 turn resistance, wild empathy
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +9, Will +2
Abilities: Str 16, Dex 20, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 12
Skills: Climb +10, Knowledge (nature) +7, Move Silently +20, Ride +12, Survival +8 (+10 in aboveground natural environments), Swim +10
Feats: Endurance (B), Far Shot, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Track (B)Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary or cabal (2-6)
Challenge Rating: 5
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Always chaotic evil
Advancement: By character class or to greater wyrd (at 8 or more Hit Dice)
Level Adjustment: +3

Ranger Spells Prepared: (Caster level 2nd, save DC = 11 + spell level)
1st—longstrider.

The elf ranger presented here had the following ability scores before racial adjustments and 4th-level ability score increase: Str 14, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 12, Wis 13, Cha 8.


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 9, 2008)

Perhaps we should give them some sort of a natural armor bonus? AC 17 and 26 hit points makes for a fragile CR 5. 

Of course, we could always improve his manufactured armor.


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## freyar (Nov 10, 2008)

A chain shirt would give us an extra +2 armor bonus but cost us a point of Dex bonus.  I don't know; maybe a small natural armor bonus.  This sample, at least, should be mostly a mobile ranged combatant anyway.


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## Shade (Nov 12, 2008)

The original creatures convert to AC 16 (lesser) and 20 (greater), and don't appear to have any armor (simply robes).  So maybe a deflection or profane bonus would be appropriate?


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 12, 2008)

I like deflection.


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## freyar (Nov 12, 2008)

Agreed.


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## Shade (Nov 21, 2008)

Deflection bonus equal to Cha modifier?


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 21, 2008)

That's industry standard, and I think it sounds right.


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## freyar (Nov 21, 2008)

Sounds right, but does it boost the AC enough in this case?  Should we swap some ability scores around?  Swapping Con for Cha gives us an additional point of AC.  Speaking of Con, that needs to be changed to - in the wyrd version.


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## Shade (Nov 24, 2008)

Updated.

I followed freyar's suggestions, and believe it now has more than enough AC for a lesser wyrd.

Ready for the greater wyrd?


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## freyar (Nov 24, 2008)

Just about -- should we specify the animal companion?  I'm thinking Small Viper for some reason.

In any case, let's just advance her to ranger 8 and greater wyrd.  The second favored enemy should definitely be humanoid (elf).


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 24, 2008)

I think we should switch to leopard for the greater wyrd's companion (also saves us having to stat anything out). Humanoid (elf) works for the second favored enemy.


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## freyar (Nov 25, 2008)

No, definitely don't want to stat out the animal companion.


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## Shade (Dec 1, 2008)

Updated, including sample greater wyrd.


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## freyar (Dec 1, 2008)

Looking pretty good.

Skills: 4 more ranks in each skill?
Feats: I'm leaning toward Manyshot, though Precise Shot is an option
Advancement: By character class.

Spells: 1st - Entangle, 2nd - Spike Growth?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 1, 2008)

At 6th level of ranger, he gets Manyshot as a bonus feat... so let's give him Precise Shot too! Problem solved.


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## Shade (Dec 1, 2008)

Sounds good.  Updated.

The AC is underwhelming again.  Maybe bracers of armor and/or a ring of protection?


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## freyar (Dec 1, 2008)

I think the ring would overlap with the normal deflection bonus, not stack, so let's not do that.  But +2 or even +3 bracers wouldn't be an unreasonable amount of loot.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 1, 2008)

Instead of bracers of armor, we should give the advanced wyrd a mithral chain shirt. Maybe even +1 or +2.


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## Shade (Dec 1, 2008)

Updated.


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## freyar (Dec 1, 2008)

Looking good!  Shouldn't the CR be 10, though?


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## Shade (Dec 2, 2008)

freyar said:


> Looking good!  Shouldn't the CR be 10, though?




Indeed!  Fixed.

Anything else?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 2, 2008)

Well, if you're counting Manyshot as a bonus feat, Rapid Shot should be as well. Other than that, looks good!


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## freyar (Dec 3, 2008)

Looks good to me, too!


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## Shade (Dec 5, 2008)

Back to the elementals...

*Elemental of Chaos, Eolian*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any air
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Clique
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Air, clouds
INTELLIGENCE: Very (11)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic (any)
NO. APPEARING: 1d4
ARMOR CLASS: 2
MOVEMENT: Fl 36 (A)
HIT DICE: 8
THAC0: 13
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2 or 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2d4 (buffet)/ 2d4 (buffet)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Suffocation, spells
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: L (10’ long)
MORALE: Elite (13)
XP VALUE: 5,000

The elementals of chaos are intelligent creatures native to one of the four elemental planes. Each of these elementals pursues its own interests vigorously with little, if any, care for order on either its home plane or the Prime Material Plane.

All elementals of chaos are immune to poison, normal weapons, and 1st- and 2nd-level spells. They also can cast detect invisibility at will. Elementals of chaos cast spells at the 9th level of ability.

Eolian
Native to the Elemental Plane of Air, eolians appear as shifting wind-beings that look like heat shimmers, although they are actually cool and solid. The creatures, generally 10 feet long and not more than 5 feet wide, can shift their exact dimensions at whim.

Combat: An eolian plunges enthusiastically into battle, seeing it as the ultimate form of chaos. It normally attacks by buffeting its foe with its windy body. The creature can make assaults like this twice per round, causing 2d4 points of damage with each hit. Instead, if the eolian chooses, it can plunge part of its wavering body into the mouth and lungs of a foe. Doing so requires a successful attack against Armor Class 0. The victim then must make a saving throw vs. death magic or begin to suffocate, automatically suffering 1d8 points of damage per round. An eolian cannot attack while suffocating a foe, but enough of its body remains outside its victim that it can be attacked.

Eolians can cast each of the following spells three times per day: detect magic, dispel magic, and cloud kill. In addition, the creature can cast control winds and control temperature, 40-foot radius (only to reduce the temperature) each once per day. An eolian is immune to all air-based attacks, but remains vulnerable to earth-based assaults, which cause it double damage.

Habitat/Society: The vain eolians consider themselves chaos personified. They reflect the nature of their alignment so well that they even change it at least once a day, from chaotic good to chaotic neutral to chaotic evil. The homes of these creatures are vast, swirling maelstroms that catch up their belongings, constantly tossing them aloft.

Ecology: Eolians count anemos and krysts as enemies, as well as the highly regimented horde. They occasionally help adventurers, when the mood strikes them, although they later get the urge to betray or even harm their “friends."

Originally appeared in Mystara Monstrous Compendium Appendix (1994).


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## Shade (Dec 5, 2008)

> All elementals of chaos are immune to poison, normal weapons, and 1st- and 2nd-level spells. They also can cast detect invisibility at will. Elementals of chaos cast spells at the 9th level of ability.




Here's what we did with the elementals of law...

Minor Spell Invulnerability (Ex): An elemental of law is immune to all spell effects of 2nd level or lower.

See Invisibility (Ex): An elemental of law can constantly see invisible creatures as if under the effects of a see invisibility spell.

A Large air elemental's ability scores are Str 14, Dex 25, Con 16, Int 6, Wis 11, Cha 11.  We can probably stick with those physical scores.

These guys have Int 11.  Maybe boost Cha to 13 as well?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 5, 2008)

Those ability scores sound good.

As for the suffocation, we should look to the belker for inspiration, as the actual suffocation rules in 3.x are much deadlier.


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## Shade (Dec 5, 2008)

Sounds good.  Added to Homebrews, using the anemo and Large air elemental as  templates.

Here are the revlevant belker abiltiies...

Smoke Claws (Ex): A belker in smoke form (see below) can engulf opponents by moving on top of them. It fills the air around one Medium or smaller opponent without provoking an attack of opportunity. The target must succeed on a DC 14 Fortitude save or inhale part of the creature. The save DC is Constitution-based. Smoke inside the victim solidifies into a claw and begins to rip at the surrounding organs, dealing 3d4 points of damage per round. An affected creature can attempt another Fortitude save each subsequent round to cough out the semivaporous menace.

Smoke Form (Su): Most of the time a belker is more or less solid, but at will it can assume smoke form. It can switch forms once per round as a free action and can spend up to 20 rounds per day in smoke form. A belker in smoke form can fly at a speed of 50 feet (perfect). The ability is otherwise similar to a gaseous form spell (caster level 7th).


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 5, 2008)

It sounds like the eolian makes an attack roll instead, but do we want to retain that?


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## freyar (Dec 5, 2008)

Save vs attack roll doesn't make too much of a difference to me.  But since it does seem like an engulfing type of attack, save probably makes the most sense.

Does the casting at 9th level of ability mean these should be inherent sorcerers or something?  Did the elementals of law have any statement about casting like this?


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## Shade (Dec 5, 2008)

freyar said:


> Does the casting at 9th level of ability mean these should be inherent sorcerers or something?  Did the elementals of law have any statement about casting like this?




It's the old-school way of stating "caster level".


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## freyar (Dec 6, 2008)

Shade said:


> It's the old-school way of stating "caster level".



Oooh, just for SLAs...


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## Shade (Dec 8, 2008)

Right.  

On further review, it seems that the "suffocating strike" is more like a grapple effect, since the eolian can no longer attack while doing so, but it remains able to be attacked.  Here's an attempt...

Suffocating Strike (Ex): As a standard action, an eolian can attempt to plunge part of its wavering body into the mouth and lungs of a grappled foe. The target must succeed on a DC x Reflex save or begin to suffocate (see the suffocation rules in the DMG). The save DC is Constitution-based. Additionally, the victim takes 1d8 points of damage per round. An affected creature can attempt another Fortitude save each subsequent round to cough out the semivaporous menace, but remains grappled.  Any effect that breaks the grapple immediately frees the victim from the suffocating strike.


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## freyar (Dec 8, 2008)

Since there's no initial Fort save, maybe we shouldn't say "another" each round.  But I think it looks pretty good.

Should we also give these Imp Grab, then?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 8, 2008)

Are we sure we want to actually suffocate? Suffocation is lethal. And do they get a save or suffocate every round, or if they pass the first save, only have to worry about straight damage?


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## freyar (Dec 9, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> Are we sure we want to actually suffocate? Suffocation is lethal. And do they get a save or suffocate every round, or if they pass the first save, only have to worry about straight damage?



A single Fort saves stops the suffocation and expels the critter?  Or reduces it to straight damage?


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2008)

I'm open-minded here.  I thought the straight damage seemed odd, since unlike the belker, they don't actually form "claws" within the victim.  But suffocation may be a tad lethal at that level.

What if we borrow from this...

Constrict (Ex): A choker deals 1d3+3 points of damage with a successful grapple check against a Large or smaller creature. Because it seizes its victim by the neck, a creature in the choker’s grasp cannot speak or cast spells with verbal components.

...but rather than constrict, deal nonlethal damage?


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## freyar (Dec 9, 2008)

Great idea!  We could make the damage 1d8+Con nonlethal perhaps.  And the victim can't speak.  I like it.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 9, 2008)

I like it too!


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2008)

Gathering it all together...

Choking Strike (Ex): As a standard action, an eolian can attempt to plunge part of its wavering body into the mouth and lungs of a grappled foe. The victim takes 1d8+3 points of nonlethal damage per round. Additionally, an affected creature cannot speak or cast spells with verbal components.

Look OK?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 9, 2008)

Looks good to me. Now, how do we free that poor victim? It no longer takes damage if the grapple is broken, right? I think we should specify that.


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2008)

Choking Strike (Ex): As a standard action, an eolian can attempt to plunge part of its wavering body into the mouth and lungs of a grappled foe. The victim takes 1d8+3 points of nonlethal damage per round. Additionally, an affected creature cannot speak or cast spells with verbal components.  Any effect that breaks the grapple immediately frees the victim from the continuing damage.


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## freyar (Dec 10, 2008)

Looks pretty good.


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## Shade (Dec 10, 2008)

Updated.



> The creatures, generally 10 feet long and not more than 5 feet wide, can shift their exact dimensions at whim.




Do anything with that, or will flavor text suffice?



> Eolians can cast each of the following spells three times per day: detect magic, dispel magic, and cloud kill. In addition, the creature can cast control winds and control temperature, 40-foot radius (only to reduce the temperature) each once per day.




Spell-Like Abilities: 3/day—cloudkill (DC x), detect magic, dispel magic; 1/day—control winds (DC x). Caster level 9th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Unique SLA/Su ability for the temperature reduction?



> An eolian is immune to all air-based attacks, but remains vulnerable to earth-based assaults, which cause it double damage.




Borrowing from the anemo...

Immunity to Air (Ex): An eolian is immune to the detrimental effects of spells with the air descriptor.

Vulnerability to Earth (Ex): An eolian takes half again (+50%) as much damage from spells and effects of the Earth descriptor.



> The vain eolians consider themselves chaos personified. They reflect the nature of their alignment so well that they even change it at least once a day, from chaotic good to chaotic neutral to chaotic evil.




Hmmm...I'm not sure about actually changing their alignment, but maybe they can always take the most beneficial aspect, such as being treated as good if targeted by holy smite, or as evil when struck by an unholy weapon?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 10, 2008)

Shade said:


> Hmmm...I'm not sure about actually changing their alignment, but maybe they can always take the most beneficial aspect, such as being treated as good if targeted by holy smite, or as evil when struck by an unholy weapon?




That I like. And I think the temperature reduction should be a unique Su.


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## freyar (Dec 10, 2008)

I think flavor text on the dimensions, unless you want to make them like a swarm (can fill any 4 contiguous squares).  Actually, I kind of like that idea.

SLAs are good.  I know we did a control temperature before, maybe for some unique genie?

Borrowing from anemo is good.

I agree that they shouldn't actually change alignment (make them all CN, I guess).  And I like the idea that they are always affected in the most beneficial way on the G-E axis.


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## Shade (Dec 10, 2008)

freyar said:


> I think flavor text on the dimensions, unless you want to make them like a swarm (can fill any 4 contiguous squares).  Actually, I kind of like that idea.




That is an interesting idea, but would it complicate reach?



freyar said:


> SLAs are good.  I know we did a control temperature before, maybe for some unique genie?




Good memory!

Control Temperature (Su): As a swift action, Aeraldoth can raise or lower the temperature by 10 degrees in a 100-foot-radius centered on him. Subsequent uses of this ability stack, so he could, for example, lower the temperature by a total of 20 degrees after two rounds.


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## freyar (Dec 10, 2008)

Hmm, we could give it a diminished reach, only 5 ft?

That's the control temperature I was thinking of.  Just want to use that?


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## Shade (Dec 10, 2008)

Since it can only lower the temperature once per day, we'll need to revise it a bit.

How's this?

Lower Temperature (Su): Once per day, an eolian can lower the temperature by up to 40 degrees in a 40-foot-radius centered on itself.  This lasts for a number of rounds equal to the eolian's Hit Dice.


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## freyar (Dec 11, 2008)

Looks good to me!


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## Shade (Dec 12, 2008)

Updated.

Skills: 22

Feats: Improved Initiative (B), Weapon Finesse (B), 3 more
Feats common to air elementals include Alertness, Blind-fight, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Flyby Attack, Iron Will, Mobility, Power Attack, Spring Attack

Advancement: 9-15 HD (Large); 16-25 HD (Huge)?

Eolians speak Auran and x.


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## freyar (Dec 12, 2008)

Max Spot and either Listen or Hide?

Flyby Attack, Iron Will, maybe Great Fort or Blind-fight.

Advancement is good.

Abyssal?  No other good language springs to mind; do they need 2?

I guess we're just going with flavor text for the dimensions.  20 lb?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 12, 2008)

Auran and Draconic, say. 

I prefer Blind-fight to Great Fort.


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## freyar (Dec 12, 2008)

That works.


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## Shade (Dec 16, 2008)

Updated.

For skills, how about:  Concentration 10, Listen 6, Spot 6?



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> I guess we're just going with flavor text for the dimensions. 20 lb?




I'm thinking so, unless you guys would really like to make it another ability.  These guys are already rather loaded with special abilities.  I think the ability would have been more useful in 3e when every creature's space wasn't square.


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## freyar (Dec 16, 2008)

Well, space just means how much room you take up in combat, including coiling up, etc.  (The square spaces really do make for some wonky sizes on serpent-like things.)  So I'm ok with leaving it as flavor.


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## Shade (Dec 16, 2008)

Thoughts on the suggested skills?


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## freyar (Dec 16, 2008)

They look good to me!

CR 6 due to all the special abilities?


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## Shade (Dec 18, 2008)

Updated.  Finished?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 18, 2008)

I think so.


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## freyar (Dec 18, 2008)

Next!


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## Shade (Dec 18, 2008)

*Elemental of Chaos, Erdeen*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any earth
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Earth, metal
INTELLIGENCE: Very (12)
TREASURE: Special
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 0
MOVEMENT:18
HIT DICE: 10
THAC0: 11
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d12 (fist)/ 1d12 (fist)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Spells
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: L (9’ tall)
MORALE: Elite (14)
XP VALUE: 7,000

The elementals of chaos are intelligent creatures native to one of the four elemental planes. Each of these elementals pursues its own interests vigorously with little, if any, care for order on either its home plane or the Prime Material Plane.

All elementals of chaos are immune to poison, normal weapons, and 1st- and 2nd-level spells. They also can cast detect invisibility at will. Elementals of chaos cast spells at the 9th level of ability.

Erdeen
Erdeens—lumpy rock beings about 9 feet tall—have long veins of metal and ore running throughout their bodies.  They originate from the Elemental Plane of Earth.

Combat: In battle, an erdeen moves with surprising grace.  It attacks either by slamming its victim with its fists (1d12/1d12 points of damage) or by casting spells.

The elemental can cast each of the following spells three times per day: detect magic, dispel magic, and earthquake. In addition, an erdeen can cast transmute rock to mud at will. The creatures are immune to all earth-based attacks, yet vulnerable to air-based attacks, which inflict an additional 3 points of damage per die.

Habitat/Society: Characters rarely encounter the solitary erdeens outside their home plane.  When in Mystara, the creatures spend much of their energy rearranging the earth and rock into bizarre and unstable configurations.  The homes of these elementals constantly shift, topple, and become vacant, as the erdeens move on to new sites.  Fascinated by the chaotic instability of earth, these elementals feel amazed that so many creatures view it as a stable element.

Erdeens have been known to trap adventurers underground and engage them in bizarre discussions about the nature of reality.  Those who please the quixotic elementals may go free, though what will please an erdeen can be difficult to deduce.

Ecology:  The body of an erdeen yields 1d4x1,000 gold pieces worth of precious ores and metals.  These creatures consider the stodgy galeb duhr and hydrax enemies, hate hordes, and fear air-based creatures and air-based attacks in general.

Originally appeared in Mystara Monstrous Compendium Appendix (1994).


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 18, 2008)

Yay! d12s!


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## freyar (Dec 18, 2008)

You know, Imp Natural Attack doesn't even list 1d12 as a damage size when determining how to improve the weapon?  And manufactured weapons treat d12s as 2d6 for that purpose.  

Based on the slam damage, I'd say make them fairly strong, huh?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 18, 2008)

Relevent sets of ability scores to compare:

Large earth elemental: Str 25, Dex 8, Con 19, Int 6, Wis 11, Cha 11
Elder xorn: Str 25, Dex 10, Con 19, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 10


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## freyar (Dec 18, 2008)

Hmmm, maybe Str 27, Dex 9, Con 19, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 12?  (Slightly increased Cha for the SLAs.)


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## Shade (Dec 18, 2008)

I like all that except the Dex, because...



> In battle, an erdeen moves with surprising grace.




Maybe Dex 13?


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## freyar (Dec 18, 2008)

Works for me.

Usual earth immunity, air vulnerability, as we've been giving these.

SLAs: at will -- transmute rock to mud; 3/day -- detect magic, dispel magic, earthquake.  Caster level 9.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 18, 2008)

I'd be willing to bring the Str down and the Dex up. Str 25, Dex 15?


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## Shade (Dec 18, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

Give 'em earth glide?


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## freyar (Dec 18, 2008)

Sounds right.  Should they have the ability to drag other critters when gliding like the shadowcrawler?  You know, given that they like to trap people?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 18, 2008)

I think they just trap people with stone shape and earthquake. Wait, they don't have stone shape? Seems a natural--better than earthquake, actually, which is quite deadly for the CR of these guys.


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## freyar (Dec 19, 2008)

Yeah, earthquake seems pretty nasty.  I agree that stone shape makes sense, and I'm willing to consider dropping earthquake.  Shade, what are your thoughts?


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## Shade (Dec 23, 2008)

I agree with stone shape rather than earthquake, and think we should give them standard earth glide.  Maybe also give them the dig ability we've given a few other creatures (essentially, lesser move earth)?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 23, 2008)

Dig strikes me as fair.


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## freyar (Dec 23, 2008)

That all sounds good to me.


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## Shade (Dec 23, 2008)

Updated.

Skills: 39

Feats: 4


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 23, 2008)

Feats: Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Weapon Focus (slam)


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## Shade (Dec 23, 2008)

Sounds good.

For skills, Concentration, Craft (sculpting), Listen, Spot?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 23, 2008)

Those sound good.


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## Shade (Dec 23, 2008)

Updated.

Challenge Rating: 6?  (right between Large and Huge earth elementals)



> Ecology: The body of an erdeen yields 1d4x1,000 gold pieces worth of precious ores and metals.




Treasure: See text?   Add the above text to flavor text?

A typical erdeen is 9 feet tall and weighs around x pounds.  (An 8-foot earth elemental weighs 750 pounds)

Erdeens speak Terran?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 23, 2008)

6 or 7 works. Stone shape plus dispel magic is pretty mean. 

How do you feel about a Craft (metalworking) check required to extract the precious ore?


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## Shade (Dec 23, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> How do you feel about a Craft (metalworking) check required to extract the precious ore?




I like that.  Probably a Profession (miner) check as an alternative? 

DC 20?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 23, 2008)

DC 20 sounds good, as does the Profession potential.


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## freyar (Dec 24, 2008)

I think they're ok for a toughish CR 6.  You know, earthquake would have been a lot meaner at this CR. 

See text for the treasure.  I like what you have for it, including both check possibilities.


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## Shade (Dec 24, 2008)

Updated.   800 pounds?


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## freyar (Dec 24, 2008)

Looks good!


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 24, 2008)

Looks good to me too.


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## Shade (Dec 26, 2008)

*Elemental of Chaos, Pyrophor*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any fire
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Tribe
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Fire
INTELLIGENCE: Very (12)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil
NO. APPEARING: 1d6+1
ARMOR CLASS: 3
MOVEMENT:12, Fl 36
HIT DICE: 7
THAC0: 13
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2d6 (lash)/ 2d6 (lash)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Fire, spells
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M (5’ across)
MORALE: Steady (12)
XP VALUE: 3,000

The elementals of chaos are intelligent creatures native to one of the four elemental planes. Each of these elementals pursues its own interests vigorously with little, if any, care for order on either its home plane or the Prime Material Plane.

All elementals of chaos are immune to poison, normal weapons, and 1st- and 2nd-level spells. They also can cast detect invisibility at will. Elementals of chaos cast spells at the 9th level of ability.

Pyrophor
Their eerily shifting features make pyrophors appear as flickering coals 5 feet in diameter, with fingers of flame that periodically flare out. These natives of the Elemental Plane of Fire move very quickly and, in the air, resemble small meteors.

Combat: Every pyrophor loves to cause fires on the Prime Material Plane. In battle, they always attempt to set their opponents on fire by lashing out with spiky finger-flames. A pyrophor can attack twice per round, causing 2d6 points of damage with each hit. In addition, a target a fiery appendage has hit must make a successful saving throw vs. wands or burst into flames; objects that normally don’t burn, like metal and stone, receive a +4 bonus to this saving throw. The fire causes 1d6 points of damage each round until put out. Victims must spend ld4 rounds rolling on the ground or one round immersed in water to douse the flames.

Pyrophors are immune to all fire-based attacks, and can use the following spells three times per day: detect magic, dispel magic, Melf‘s minute meteors, and fire storm. They also can cast affect normal fires at will. These elementals always suffer maximum damage from water-based attacks.

Habitat/Society: Pyrophors, perhaps the most cavalierly violent of the elementals, revel in the destructive powers of fire.  They often use their abilities in malicious play, bathing parts of the Prime Material Plane in “purifying“ flame.

Ecology: Bothering the lawful helions always sounds like a lot of fun to a pyrophor. They fear water-type creatures and water attacks, and particularly hate the hydrax and undines.

Originally appeared in Mystara Monstrous Compendium Appendix (1994).


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## Shade (Dec 26, 2008)

Str 12, Dex 19, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 11, Cha 15?


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## freyar (Dec 27, 2008)

Sure!  

Does fire storm seem a bit powerful for these?  (Like earthquake for the last ones.)


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 27, 2008)

Sounds good, maybe Cha 16. Melf's Minute Meteors no longer exists. Replace with scorching ray?


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## freyar (Dec 27, 2008)

Either scorching ray or energy substituted acid arrow.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 27, 2008)

Firestorm does seem rather powerful. Fireball on the other hand... more in line.


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## freyar (Dec 28, 2008)

I'll take fireball for firestorm.  Works for me!


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## Shade (Dec 30, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

Good or perfect maneuverability?

Skills: 30

Feats: Improved Initiative (B), Weapon Finesse (B), 3 more

A typical pyrophor is 5 feet in diameter and weighs x pounds.

Pyrophors speak Ignan and x.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 30, 2008)

Empower SLA (scorching ray), Flyby Attack, Combat Reflexes


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## Shade (Dec 30, 2008)

Great!  Updated.

10 ranks each in Listen, Spot, Tumble?

75 pounds?  (It is essentially a 5-foot-diameter chunk of coal)

Pyrophors speak Ignan and Abyssal?

Good maneuverability?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 30, 2008)

Good manuverability is fine. I like Listen, Spot and Tumble, although we might want a few ranks in Concentration for those SLAs.


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## Shade (Dec 30, 2008)

Good point.

Updated.

CR 4?  (Right between Medium and Large fire elementals)


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## freyar (Dec 30, 2008)

Sounds good, and this also seems done!


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 31, 2008)

CR 5. Its SLAs are really dangerous. 

Also, its manuverability should be "good", not "goog"


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## Shade (Jan 5, 2009)

Goog catch!  

Updated.


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## freyar (Jan 5, 2009)

Is it as done as it looks?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 5, 2009)

Mm... looking back on it, I'm tempted to call it a CR 6. It's a glass cannon, to be sure, but its SLAs are, as previously mentioned, brutal, and it'll be immune to most of the spells the PCs can cast on it.


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## freyar (Jan 5, 2009)

That's ok by me, sure.  It does have pretty decent defenses.


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## Shade (Jan 5, 2009)

Boosted to CR 6.

I'll get the next one going tomorrow.


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## Shade (Jan 6, 2009)

Several versions of the next one exist.  Looking through them, it looks like two different, distinct creatures, the "watery snake" and the "miniature merwoman" versions.

*Elemental of Chaos, Undine*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any water
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Water
INTELLIGENCE: Average (10)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic good
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 4
MOVEMENT:9, Sw 24
HIT DICE: 8
THAC0: 11
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2d8 (fist) or 1d10 (coil)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Constriction, spells
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: L (12’ long)
MORALE: Elite (13)
XP VALUE: 4,000

The elementals of chaos are intelligent creatures native to one of the four elemental planes. Each of these elementals pursues its own interests vigorously with little, if any, care for order on either its home plane or the Prime Material Plane.

All elementals of chaos are immune to poison, normal weapons, and 1st- and 2nd-level spells. They also can cast detect invisibility at will. Elementals of chaos cast spells at the 9th level of ability.

Undine
Undines reside on the Elemental Plane of Water and rarely visit the Prime Material Plane.

On its home plane, an undine normally looks like a featureless, transparent snake. It can change shape easily, sometimes adopting a form with many tentacles to handle objects. Once per turn, an undine can spend up to five rounds swimming quickly (movement rate of 48) in the form of a spinning coil.  These elementals remain invisible while immersed in water.

Combat: An undine can attack using a fistlike pod, by constricting, or with spells. Using its “fist,” the creature can attack once per round. If the blow hits, it causes 2d8 points of damage.  The undine then can coil around its opponent, squeezing for 1d10 points of automatic constriction damage per round. The elemental can coil around any creature of giant size or less, rendering its foe unable to move, attack, or concentrate. An undine also can cast the following spells up to three times per day: detect magic, web, dispel magic, ice storm, and transmute dust to water. An undine’s web, made of ice strands, functions in the same way as one from a normal web spell. However, flame melts the strands rather than burning them, and trapped victims suffer no damage. The undine itself is immune to all water-based attacks, but fire-based attacks cause the creature double the normal amount of damage.

While on the Prime Material Plane, an undine regenerates 3 hit points per round while in water When out of water, however, the creature loses 1 point per round from drying.

Habitat/Society: The solitary undines possess a philosophy similar to that of djinn: to aid those whom they consider worthy. Little is known of the undines’ social structure or ultimate goals, if they have any at all.
Ecology: Undines count helions and hordes as enemies, and fear all fire-based beings and flame attacks.

Originally appeared in Mystara Monstrous Compendium Appendix (1994).

*Undine**
Armor Class: 4
Hit Dice: 8**
Move: 90’ (30’)
Swimming: 240’ (80’)
Attacks: 1 fist or 1 coil
Damage: 2-16 or 1-10
No. Appearing: 1 (1)
Save As: Fighter: 16
Morale: 9
Treasure Type: Nil
Alignment: Chaotic
XP Value: 2,300

An undine is an intelligent creature made of water. It is rare even on the Elemental Plane of Water, its home, and is almost never encountered on the Prime Plane. Undines are Chaotic in behavior, but (similar to djinn) have very good intentions and despise evil.

On its home Plane, an undine normally has a form like a featureless transparent snake. It can easily change shape, sometimes using a form with many tentacles to handle objects. Once per turn, it can swim quickly in the form of a revolving coil, moving at 480’ (160’) rate for up to 10 rounds.

Undines are immune to poison, normal weapons, all 1st and 2nd level spells, and to all attacks based on fire. An undine can detect invisible at will, and can use detect magic, web, dispel magic, ice storm/wall, and fire to ice 3 times per day (all as if a 9th level magic-user). An undine’s web is made of ice strands, which function in the same way; however, flame merely melts the web, rather than burning it, and trapped victims take no damage from the melting.

An undine can attack with one “fist” (armlike extension) per round. If the blow hits, the undine may choose to coil around the opponent, squeezing for 1-10 points of automatic constriction damage each round. An undine can coil around any creature of giant size or less, and the victim cannot move, attack, nor concentrate.

On the Prime Plane, an undine appears identical to a water elemental. While in water, it is invisible, and regenerates damage at the rate of 3 points per round. When out of water, however, it does not regenerate, and instead takes 1 point of damage per round from drying. An undine is not as limited as an elemental; it is not blocked by a protection from evil effect, and is not forced to remain within 60’ of water.

Undines live far from the realms of the water elementals, but occasionally visit them. Their enemies are the hydrax and the hordes, and they fear air-type creatures and attacks.

Originally appeared in Companion Rules (1984).

*Undine**
Armor Class: 4
Hit Dice: 8*** (L)
Move: 90' (30')
Swimming: 240' (80')
Attacks: 1 fist or 1 coil
Damage: 2d8 or 1d10
No. Appearing: 1(1)
Save As: F16
Morale: 9
Treasure Type: Nil
Intelligence: 10
Alignment: Chaotic
XP Value: 2,300
Monster Type: Planar Monster, Enchanted (Very Rare).

An undine is an intelligent creature made of water. It is rare even on the elemental plane of Water, its home, and is almost never encountered on the Prime Plane. Undines are Chaotic in behavior, but (similar to djinn) have very good intentions and despise evil.

On its home plane, an undine normally has a form like a featureless transparent snake. It can easily change shape, sometimes using a form with many tentacles to handle objects. Once per turn, it can swim quickly in the form of a revolving coil, moving at 480' (160') rate for up to 10 rounds.

Undines are immune to poison, normal weapons, all 1st and 2nd level spells, and to all attacks based on fire. An undine can detect invisible at will, and can use detect magic, web, dispel magic, ice storm / wall, and fire to ice three times per day (all as if a 9th level magic-user). An undine's web is made of ice strands, which function in the same way; however, flame merely melts the web, rather than burning it. and trapped victims take no damage from the melting.

An undine can attack with one "fist" (armlike extension) per round. If the blow hits, the undine may choose to coil around the opponent, squeezing for 1d10 points of automatic constriction damage each round. An undine can coil around any creature of giant size or less, and the victim cannot move, attack, or concentrate.

On the Prime Plane, an undine appears identical to a water elemental. While in water, it is invisible, and regenerates damage at the rate of 3 points per round. When out of water, however, it does not regenerate, and instead takes 1 point of damage per round from drying. An undine is not as limited as an elemental; it is not blocked by a protection from evil effect, and is not forced to remain within 60' of water.

Their enemies are the hydrax and the hordes, and they fear air-type creatures and attacks. Terrain: Plane of Water.

Originally appeared in D&D Rules Cyclopedia (1991).

*UNDINE*
FREQUENCY: Very rare (uncommon on Elemental Plane of Water)
NO. APPEARING: 2-20
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVE: //12.
HIT DICE: 2
% IN LAIR: 80%
TREASURE TYPE: P, R, any two magic
items (20%)
NO. OF ATTACKS: See below
DAMAGE/ATTACK: See below
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Rapid drowning, paralysis
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Invisible in water, plane shift
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Low
ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil
SIZE: S(3. long)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE: IV/163 + 2/hp

These creatures come from the Elemental Plane of Water. Like water weirds, they enjoy drowning their victims; it is also believed that they survive by draining the lifeforce of their victims. In appearance, undines are similar to miniature merwomen; they have a single, scaled, lateral tail (much like that of a dolphin) which is connected to a humanoid upper body.

Their lairs are simply areas of water which they use as a base for traveling between planes, This area is found along a well-traveled route, populated seacoast, or any other area which offers a great number of potential victims. As a result, many bodies often litter the floor of the lake, river, or ocean that they inhabit.

Undines have the ability to charm monsters as per the spell, usable once per day. By doing so, undines can command larger sea creatures (whales, giant squids, or octopi) to do their bidding. Undines use these larger creatures to destroy ships or whisk sailors from decks. Once in the water, these sailors are then attacked by the undines, who attempt to slay them. During this time, the other creatures do not attack as the undine must kill the victim themselves in order to consume their lifeforce. An (invisible) undine grasps a person on a successful to-hit roll, which causes the victim to save vs. paralysis or become completely paralyzed. The victim drowns in 1-2 rounds, even if able to take a deep breath before going under. Undines are not strong, so a mobile character can easily escape from one’s clutches.

Undines are naturally invisible in water, even if attacking. If an undine is losing a battle, the creature flees for its lair. Characters attempting to locate an undine must use magical means (spells or devices) to do so. In extreme cases, as when the undine’s death is the probable outcome of combat, this creature may use its ability to transport itself back to the Elemental Plane of Water if no other means of escape is available.  This plane shift ability works once per year, so they are reluctant to use it.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #116 (1986).


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## freyar (Jan 6, 2009)

The Dragon mag version really seems like a different creature, so I'd recommend doing separate conversions.

For the other one, the shapechanger subtype seems appropriate.


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## Shade (Jan 6, 2009)

Why don't we stick with the name "undine" for the elemental of chaos and work on that.   I'll save the Dragon Mag version for a different thread, and maybe we can call it an "ondine" based on the following link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ondine_(mythology)


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 6, 2009)

Sounds pretty reasonable.


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## Shade (Jan 6, 2009)

Large Water Elemental abilities: Str 20, Dex 14, Con 19, Int 6, Wis 11, Cha 11

Int is given as 10.

Cha should be boosted to accommodate the SLAs.

Maybe Str 20, Dex 14, Con 19, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 15?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 6, 2009)

Those ability scores sound pretty good. What do we want to do about transmute dust to water? Replace with control water? Or see if we can find and convert it?


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## freyar (Jan 6, 2009)

Well, the 2nd and 3rd versions don't have transmute dust to water (though they do have fire to ice).  So we could leave it off entirely.  I do agree that control water makes sense thematically.  Also, are we giving them both wall of ice and ice storm?


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## Shade (Jan 6, 2009)

Ice storm seems largely useless in their home environment, so I'd be OK with dropping it.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 6, 2009)

I'm alright with ice storm either way, either keeping or dropping it. If we do drop it, we might want to give it some other offensive spell-like ability.


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## freyar (Jan 7, 2009)

If cone of cold works under water, that's an option.


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## Shade (Jan 7, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

OK, to summarize the SLAs:

"Ice web" - probably should make a unique SLA/Su ability

"Ice storm/wall" 3/day - ice storm and/or wall of ice;  technically both spells work as normal underwater, as well as freyar's recommendation of cone of cold

transmute dust to water - control water and/or convert the orginal spell

"fire to ice" 3/day - probably a unique SLA/Su ability

Here's the original...

*Transmute Water to Dust *
(Alteration) Reversible 
Range: 60 yds. 
Components: V, S, M 
Duration: Permanent 
Casting Time: 5 
Area of Effect: 10-ft. cube/level 
Saving Throw: None (special) 

When this spell is cast, the subject area instantly undergoes a change from liquid to powdery dust. Note that if the water is already muddy, the area of effect is doubled, while if wet mud is being transmuted, the area of effect is quadrupled. If water remains in contact with the transmuted dust, the former quickly soaks the latter, turning the dust into silty mud (if a sufficient quantity of water exists to do so), otherwise soaking or dampening the dust accordingly. 

Only liquid actually in the area of effect at the moment of spellcasting is affected. Liquids that are only partially water are affected only insofar as the actual water content is concerned; however, potions containing water are rendered useless. Living creatures are unaffected, except for those native to the Elemental Plane of Water. Such creatures receive saving throws vs. spell. Failure inflicts 1d6 points of damage per caster level upon the subject, while success means the creature receives half damage. Only one such creature can be affected by any single casting of this spell, regardless of the creature's size or the size of the spell's area of effect. 

The reverse of the spell is simply a very high-powered create water spell that requires a pinch of normal dust as an additional material component. 

For either usage of the spell, other components required are diamond dust of at least 500 gp value and a bit of seashell.


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## freyar (Jan 8, 2009)

These rarely leave elemental water, so does dust to water even make much sense for them?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 8, 2009)

I don't really think so.


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## Shade (Jan 8, 2009)

Does this work, then?

Spell-Like Abilities: 3/day—control water, detect magic, dispel magic, ice storm, wall of ice. Caster level 9th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

There's an ice web spell in Frostburn...

Ice Web
Conjuration (Creation)[Cold]
Level: Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S, Coldfire
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect: Webs of coldfire in a 20-ft. radius spread
Duration: 10 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: Reflex negates; see text
Spell Resistance: No

Ice web creates a many-layered mass of strong, frigid strands of pure coldfire. These masses must be anchored to two or more solid and diametrically opposed points--floor and ceiling, opposite walls, or the like--or else the ice web collapses upon itself and disappears. Creatures caught within the ice web become entangled in the strands. Attacking a creature in an ice web won't cause you to become entangled.

Any creature moving into or through the spell's area takes 1d6 points of frostburn damage per round.

In addition, anyone in the affect's area when the spell is cast must make a Reflex save. If this save succeeds, the creature is entangled, but not prevented from moving, though moving is more difficult than normal (see below). If the save fails, the creature is entangled and can't move from its space, but can break loose by spending 1 round and making a DC 10 Strength check or a DC 25 Escape Artist check. Once loose (either by making the initial Reflex save or a later Strength check or Escape Artist check), a creature remains entangled, but may move through the ice web very slowly. Each round devoted to moving allows the creature to make a new Strength check or Escape Artist check. The creature moves 5 feet for each full 5 points by which the check result exceeds 10.

If you have at least 5 feet of ice web between you and an opponent, it provides cover. If you have at least 20 feet of ice web between you, it provides total cover.

The strands of an ice web are immune to damage from cold. Any fire--a torch, burning oil, a flaming sword, and so forth--can melt 5 square feet of coldfire strands in 1 round.

Ice web can be made permanent with a permanency spell. A permanent ice web that is damaged (but not destroyed) regrows in 10 minutes.

Creatures with the cold subtype may pass unimpeded and unharmed through an ice web.

Coldfire Component: Two ounces of coldfire.


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## freyar (Jan 8, 2009)

Well, a few things I don't like about this spell for our Su ability: it needs an anchor and the complicated movement rules.  Don't have time to write this up, though.


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## Shade (Jan 8, 2009)

Regular web requires anchor points and has complicated movement rules as well.  

Perhaps pattern it after an ettercap's web instead?


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## freyar (Jan 8, 2009)

I can live with the movement rules , but I think we should drop the anchor points because there might not be too many in the elemental plane of water. Thinking about it, let's use the ice web spell, drop the anchor points bit, and change the frostburn damage to cold damage.

Ice Web (Su): 3 times/day, an undine can create an ice web effect.  This functions as a web spell at caster level 9, with the following exceptions.  The ice web does not need anchor points to maintain its shape.  Also, each round a creature begins its turn in the ice web, it takes 1d6 points of cold damage


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 8, 2009)

freyar's ice web works for me.


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## Shade (Jan 8, 2009)

Great!  Updated.

Do we want to do anything with "fire to ice"?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 8, 2009)

I think we should ignore it.


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## Shade (Jan 8, 2009)

Agreed.

Improved grab/constrict for the "coil" attack?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 8, 2009)

Agreed.


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## freyar (Jan 9, 2009)

Agreed to all that.


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## Shade (Jan 9, 2009)

Updated.



> Once per turn, an undine can spend up to five rounds swimming quickly (movement rate of 48) in the form of a spinning coil.






> Once per turn, it can swim quickly in the form of a revolving coil, moving at 480’ (160’) rate for up to 10 rounds.






> Once per turn, it can swim quickly in the form of a revolving coil, moving at 480' (160') rate for up to 10 rounds.




So, five rounds or ten rounds?   Once per turn would be once ever ten minutes.  Change it to once per hour?



> These elementals remain invisible while immersed in water.






> While in water, it is invisible, and regenerates damage at the rate of 3 points per round. When out of water, however, it does not regenerate, and instead takes 1 point of damage per round from drying.






> While on the Prime Material Plane, an undine regenerates 3 hit points per round while in water When out of water, however, the creature loses 1 point per round from drying.




Total concealment while in water, or just a massive situation Hide bonus?

For the fast healing, we can use the water mephit for inspiration:

Fast Healing (Ex): A water mephit heals only if it is exposed to rain or submerged up to its waist in water.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 9, 2009)

I like total concealment in the water. Ditto once an hour for the coiled movement.


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## freyar (Jan 9, 2009)

Agreed.  Also 10 rounds for the coiled movement.  I also think we should use the mephit's fast healing, though perhaps these should be totally submerged to get it.  We might also put in a water dependence for the loss of the hp per round out of the water.


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## Shade (Jan 9, 2009)

Coiled Motion (Ex?):  Once per hour, an undine can shape itself into a coil, increasing its swim speed to 120 feet.  It may move at this speed for up to a minute.

Fast Healing (Ex): An undine heals only if it is fully submerged in water. 

Water Transparency (Ex):  An undine's transparent body grants it total concealment underwater.

Borrow this from sahuagin?

Water Dependent (Ex): Undine can survive out of the water for 1 hour per 2 points of Constitution (after that, refer to the drowning rules on page 304 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide).


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## freyar (Jan 9, 2009)

Coiled Motion should be Ex, I think.

That water dependency could work, but I'm maybe thinking of something the reverse of a vampire's weakness to being submerged (but not as powerful).  Maybe:

Water Bound (Su?): Each round that an undine is not submerged in water, it takes 1 hit point of damage.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 9, 2009)

I like freyar's suggested Water Bound.


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## Shade (Jan 9, 2009)

Updated.

Amount of fast healing?

+9 natural amor like Large water elemental?

Skills: 22

Feats: 3
Large water elementals have Cleave, Great Cleave, Power Attack


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 9, 2009)

Fast healing 3.

Natural armor sounds good. Feats are just okay; Swim-by attack isn't OGL, is it? If it's not, Dodge, Mobility and Spring Attack might also be contenders.


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## freyar (Jan 10, 2009)

I don't think swim-by attack is OGL, no.  Let's go for the Spring Attack chain.

The rest sounds good.


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## Shade (Jan 12, 2009)

I like that feat chain for them.  Sprinkle in some ranks in Tumble to go along with that theme?

Maybe Concentration 11, Tumble 11?

CR 6?

A typical undine is 12 feet long and weighs around x pounds.  (Medium water elemental = 8 ft. 280 lb., Large 16 ft. 2,250 lb.)

Undines speak Aquan and x.  (Terran, since they dislike hordes, or Celestial, since they are usually good?)

Oh, and I think we forgot this...



> The undine itself is immune to all water-based attacks




Borrowing from the hydrax...

Immunity to Water (Ex): An undine is immune to the detrimental effects of spells with the water descriptor.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 12, 2009)

CR 6 and Celestial work for me.


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## freyar (Jan 12, 2009)

That all sounds good.  Are they done?


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## Shade (Jan 12, 2009)

We just need weight (see my earlier post for similar water elemental weights).


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 12, 2009)

1,500 pounds, then?


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## Shade (Jan 12, 2009)

Sounds good.  Updated.

Now I think we're finished.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 12, 2009)

I think so too.


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## freyar (Jan 12, 2009)

Yup.


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## Shade (Jan 13, 2009)

*Horde*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any land
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Collective being
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: High (13)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Lawful evil
NO. APPEARING: 2d4 (patrol) or 1d100x10
ARMOR CLASS: 3
MOVEMENT: 15
HIT DICE: 3-21
THAC0: Varies by Hit Dice (see below)
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: Varies by Hit Dice (see below)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Telekinesis
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: S-H (3-21’ long)
MORALE: Fanatic (17)
XP VALUE: Varies by Hit Dice (see below)

Hit Dice / Bite Damage / Size / XP
3 / 1d6 / S / 50
4 / 1d6 / S / 125
5 / 1d8 / M / 300
6 / 1d8 / M / 500
7 / 1d10 / M / 850
8 / 1d10 / L / 1,200
9 / 2d6 / L / 1,600
10 / 2d6 / L / 1,750
11-12 / 2d8 / L / 1,900
13-14 / 3d6 / H / 2,300
15-16 / 3d6 / H / 2,300
17-20 / 4d6 / H / 3,150
21 / 5d6 / H / 4,500

Hordes are frightening life forms native to the Elemental Plane of Earth. Each single horde entity constists of hundreds of separate, insectlike bodies united by a single mind.

The bodies of a particular horde consciousness all look alike, and different hordes often feature their own distinct body types.  The bodies of one horde might resemble huge, golden praying mantises, while another might look like small black beetles with glowing red antennae.  The size of the individual bodies within a horde varies; each body’s length corresponds to its Hit Dice (one with 3 HD body measures 3 feet long). The above statistics describe individual horde bodies.

Combat:  The horde attacks other creatures whenever it finds such an action in its own best interest.  Hordes do not consider any other life forms intelligent and have no compunctions against destroying others.  Small patrols (of 2d4 bodies each) guard the outer limits of the area the horde claims; typically, all the bodies in a patrol have an equal number of Hit Dice (therefore, the same size).

In battle, the horde quite willingly sacrifices its individual bodies to further its cuase; the bodies automatically fail any required saving throws. However, if the horde loses more than 10% of its bodies in a single activity (one battle, for example), the creature either decides to resolve the problem peacefully (by negotiating or fleeing) or calls another horde for assistance.

In combat, the horde’s bodies normally bite foes, overpowering any resistance with sheer numbers.  A horde entitity can cast ESP and telekinesis (up to 200 lbs.) up to once per round; use of this spell-like power does not interfere with the activities of individual bodies. The horde communicates among its bodies by telepathy; it can easily handle dozens of conversations at once.  Thought bodies are immune to mental assaults (charm, sleep, hold, etc.), physical attacks can hurt them.

A horde dies only if all its bodies are destroyed.  If any body escapes, the horde immediately begins to rebuild.  It can create a replacement body (or increase the size of a physically inactive body) at the rate of 1 Hit Die per turn. The horde cannot use ESP or telekinesis while creating or increasing a body’s size.

Habitat/Society:  Sages speculate that a horde life force can control practically limitless numbers of members, perhaps up to 10,000 Hit Dice of bodies. Fortunately, the largest individual horde component body ever seen on Mystara boasted only 21 Hit Dice; some suggest that a horde can have larger component bodies on its home plane.  The entitity has no controlling body, such as the queen of an insect hive; its mind and life force occupy all component bodies evenly.  However, the horde life force can control bodies only within an area 100 miles across.  If one of the horde’s bodies is taken outside this range, that body becomes a mindless thing and dies in 1-10 days. 

Each horde has its own name. All the bodies of a single horde will respond to this name, which can cause confusion among those dealing with a horde. 

The extremely lawful hordes will sacrifice as many bodies as needed to reach a goal.  The horde does not recognize any other form of life as worthy of respect—even another of its own kind.  When a horde needs more room, it simply tries to take it, without regard for other creatures; thus, most consider these creatures evil. Hordes often battle each other for living space.

Ecology:  All other intelligent creatures fear and hate hordes.  Horrific tales abound of whole lands overrun by a single horde and stripped of all vegetation and native creatures, save for a few “herds” of humanoids raised for food.

The hordes' particular enemies include krysts, erdeens, and undines.  Krysts and erdeens, both from the Elemental Plane of Earth, particularly loathe the hordes that have taken over so much of their home plane.

Originally appeared in Mystara Monstrous Compendium Appendix (1994).

*Horde *
Armor Class: 3
Hit Dice: 3* to 21*
Move: 150’ (50’)
Attacks: 1 bite or special
Damage: Varies by Hit Dice
No. App: 2-8 (10-1,000)
Save As: See below
Morale: 12
Treasure: Special
Alignment: Lawful
XP Value: Varies by Hit Dice

The “hordes”are life forms native to the Elemental Plane of Earth. Each single life force has hundreds of separate insect-like bodies.  The size of the bodies ranges from 3 to 21 feet long; the length corresponds to the Hit Dice. Details onn the individual bodies are given above.

One horde life force can control up to 10,000 Hit Dice of bodies. Replacement bodies can be created at the rate of 1 Hit Die per turn.  Unlike insects, there is no “queen” body; the life force is widely spread, occupying all the bodies evenly. The life force can only control bodies within a volume 100 miles across; if taken outside that range, a body becomes a mindless thing, dying in 1-10 days.  Each planet in the realm of the hordes is occupied by 1-100 life forces.

Each individual life force has its own name.  All the bodies of a single life force will respond to the same name, and this can cause confusion in dealing with a horde creature. The creature itself can only die if all of its bodies are destroyed.

Horde creatures do not consider any other life forms to be intelligent. When more room is needed, a horde will simply try to take it, without regard for other creatures; thus, they are considered evil. The horde creatures often grapple with each other in this war for living space.

A horde creature can use ESP and telekinesis (up to 20,00 cn) as often as desired, up to once per round. It communicates by telepathy, speaking directly to the minds of others. It is incredibly intelligent, and can easily handle dozens of conversations at once.

Each horde is very Lawful and always dangerous.  A horde creature sacrifices as many bodies as needed to reach a goal, and thus the Morale of a body is 12. The creature is immune to all mental effects (charm, hold, sleep, etc.), but the bodies are susceptible to blows and damage-causing attacks of most types. Because of its disregard for individual bodies, a horde normally does not bother to attempt to save them; in play, it simply fails all Saving Throws voluntarily. However, if 10% or more of a horde’s bodies are lost in a single activity (an encounter with enemies, for example), the creature will either resolve the problem peacefully (negotiating, avoiding, etc.) or call other hordes for assistance.

The hordes’ enemies are the kryst and the undines. They fear fire-type creatures and attacks.

Originally appeared in Companion Rules (1984).

*Horde*
Armor Class: 3
Hit Dice: 3* to 21* (S-L, see below)
Move: 150' (50')
Attacks: 1 bite or special
Damage: Varies by Hit Dice
No. Appearing: 2d4 (d100 x 10)
Save As: See below
Morale: 12
Treasure Type: Special
Intelligence: 13
Alignment: Lawful
XP Value: By Hit Dice (see below)
Hit Dice / Bite Damage / XP
3* / 1d6 / 50
4* / 1d6 / 125
5* / 1d8 / 300
6* / 1d8 / 500
7* / 1d10 / 850
8* / 1d10 / 1,200
9* / 2d6 / 1,600
10* / 2d6 / 1,750
11*-12* / 2d8 / 1,900
13*-16* / 3d6 / 2,300
17*-20* / 4d6 / 3,150
21* / 5d6 / 4,500

Monster Type: Planar Monster (Very Rare).

"The hordes" are life forms native to the elemental plane of Earth. Each single life force has hundreds of separate insectlike bodies. The size of the bodies ranges from 3 to 21 feet long; the length corresponds to the Hit Dice (i.e., a 3-HD body will be 3' long). Details on the individual bodies are given above.

One horde life force can control up to 10,000 Hit Dice of bodies. Replacement bodies can be created at the rate of 1 Hit Die per turn. Unlike insects, there is no "queen" body; the life force is widely spread, occupying all the bodies evenly.  The life force can only control bodies within a volume 100 miles across; if taken outside that range, a body becomes a mindless thing, dying in 1-10 days. Each planet in the realm of the hordes is occupied by 1d100 life forces.

Each individual life force has its own name. All the bodies of a single life force will respond to the same name, and this can cause confusion in dealing with a horde creature. The creature itself can only die if all of its bodies are destroyed.

The horde creatures do not consider any other life forms to be intelligent. When a horde needs more room, it will simply try to take it, without regard for other creatures; thus, they are considered evil. The horde creatures often grapple with each other in this war for living space.

A horde creature can use ESP and telekinesis (up to 2,000 cn) as often as desired, up to once per round. It communicates by telepathy, speaking directly to the minds of others. It is incredibly intelligent, and can easily handle dozens of conversations at once.

Each horde is very Lawful and always dangerous.  A horde creature sacrifices as many bodies as needed to reach a goal, and thus the morale of a body is 12. The creature is immune to all mental effects (charm, hold, sleep, etc.), but the bodies are susceptible to blows and damage-causing attacks of most types. Because of its disregard for individual bodies, a horde normally does not bother to attempt to save them; in play, it simply fails all saving throws voluntarily. However, if 10% or more of a horde's bodies are lost in a single activity (an encounter with enemies, for example), the creature will either resolve the problem peacefully (negotiating, avoiding, etc.) or call other hordes for assistance.

Each horde can have a different species of insect as its bodies. One horde might consist of bodies which look like huge gold praying mantises with wings, while another might consist of smallish black beetles with glowing red tips on their antennae.

The hordes' enemies are the kryst and the undines.  They fear fire-type creatures and attacks.

Terrain: Plane of Earth.

Originally appeared in D&D Rules Cyclopedia (1991).


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## freyar (Jan 13, 2009)

You know, I would have said swarm, but I think the individual bodies are too big probably.  Should we stat up an individual body and then put in a hive-mind ability?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 13, 2009)

Outsider (earth)?


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## Shade (Jan 14, 2009)

Either that or elemental.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 14, 2009)

I'm in favor of outsider (earth). They don't sing to me "Elemental". Like a salamander, they're more complicated than that.


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## freyar (Jan 14, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> I'm in favor of outsider (earth). They don't sing to me "Elemental". Like a salamander, they're more complicated than that.



Good argument, I'll buy that.


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## Shade (Jan 15, 2009)

Fair enough.  Should we stat up Small, Medium, Large, and Huge versions, similar to elementals?


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## freyar (Jan 15, 2009)

I think so, and then give them a hivemind, since they're basically like the borg.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 15, 2009)

Different sizes work for me.


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## Shade (Jan 16, 2009)

OK, so it looks like Small are 3-4 HD, Medium 5-7, Large 8-12, and Huge 13-21.  That's fairly comparable to elemental progression.  Shall we use earth elemental physical ability scores (with possible Higher Dex) corresponding with size?

Int appears constant through the sizes (13).   Wis and Cha are probably comparable, with possibly higher Cha since it is seems to have a strong sense of self-awareness.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 16, 2009)

Agreed to elemental ability scores, plus Dex.


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## Shade (Jan 16, 2009)

How about....

S: Str 17, Dex 13, Con 13, Int 13, Wis 13, Cha 17
M: Str 21, Dex 13, Con 17, Int 13, Wis 13, Cha 17 
L: Str 25, Dex 13, Con 19, Int 13, Wis 13, Cha 17
H: Str 29, Dex 13, Con 21, Int 13, Wis 13, Cha 17


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## freyar (Jan 16, 2009)

Agreed that mental stats should  be constant, since they're all part of the same mind.

Abilities look pretty good, but I might decrease Str by 2 to compensate for the increase in Dex.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 16, 2009)

I'd be happy to drop Dex to 11 for the Huge version.


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## Shade (Jan 20, 2009)

So +2 Str across the board, -2 Dex for Huge only?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 20, 2009)

freyar was advocating for lowering Str, actually. I disagree with him--these guys are allowed to be more powerful than an earth elemental of the same size.


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## Shade (Jan 20, 2009)

Added to Homebrews (just the Large size for now).

I suppose since they share a mind, then the feats and skills should be based upon the highest-HD creature in the collective?

Expand on one of the following abilities?

Hive Mind (Ex): All formians within 50 miles of their queen are in constant communication. If one is aware of a particular danger, they all are. If one in a group is not flatfooted, none of them are. No formian in a group is considered flanked unless all of them are.

Telepathic Link (Ex): Creatures with this ability share a communal consciousness, enabling them to communicate telepathically with other creatures of their kind. A group of such creatures within a certain distance of each other (specified in the creature's entry) are in constant contact. If one is aware of a particular danger, they all are. If one in the group is not flat-footed, none of them are. No creature in the group is considered flanked unless all are.


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## freyar (Jan 20, 2009)

The increased Str is ok.  I could go with Hive Mind or Telepathic Link, since they're basically the same.  As far as skills and feats, I can see skills based on the one with highest HD, but feats are partly physical so I'd rather keep those individual.


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## Shade (Jan 22, 2009)

Demiurge - what are your thoughts on the matter?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 22, 2009)

I like the idea of skills and feats being dependent on the largest in the colony. It's mechanically a little wierd, but certainly flavorful.


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## freyar (Jan 22, 2009)

So I guess we should give an example with the largest size possible and then say what ranks and feats to strip off if it's a smaller size?  Or do you want to go in reverse?


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## Shade (Jan 23, 2009)

Actually, why not just allow the lesser members to utilize the greater members' ranks and feats?   I doubt it will shift the power greatly...at most maybe increase CR by 1 or so.  Since the Huge version is at 13 HD, it will only have 5 feats, and some low-CR creature end up with that many feats through bonus feats.  And while 16 ranks in some skills is nice, many low-CR creatures gain huge racial bonuses to various skills.


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## freyar (Jan 23, 2009)

Ahh, simple and elegant!  And I agree that it is no more than a shift of CR by 1.  We can put in a DM's note that the CR of the small ones may increase/decrease depending on the HD of the largest one.


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## Shade (Jan 23, 2009)

So how about this to wrap it all together?

Collective Mind (Ex): A horde is a collective being sharing a communal consciousness.  As a result, all horde entities share the same mental ability scores, feats, and skills (based on the highest-HD member).  As a result, all horde entities within 100 miles of each other are in constant contact, able to communicate telepathically with each other within this range. If one is aware of a particular danger, they all are. If one in the group is not flat-footed, none of them are. No horde entity in the group is considered flanked unless all are.


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## freyar (Jan 23, 2009)

Let's just clarify to say "all horde entities share the same mental ability scores and use the feats and skills of the highest-HD member."


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## Shade (Jan 27, 2009)

Excellent.

Shall we base the feats and skills off the 21-HD version?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 27, 2009)

Seems the most reasonable to me.


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## freyar (Jan 27, 2009)

Yes, and let's then say how to adjust downwards.


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## Shade (Jan 28, 2009)

And upwards (assuming the highest-HD member advances past 21 HD)?  Or are we making 21 HD a hard cap on advancement?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 28, 2009)

Let's let them advance further, as there were hints of the same in the original text.


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## freyar (Jan 28, 2009)

I'd agree with that.


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## Shade (Jan 28, 2009)

In that case, let's figure out the 21-HD feats and skills and then we can provide notes for upsizing/downsizing...

Skills:  9 at 24 ranks

Feats:  8 (1 can be epic)
Earth elemental feats:  Alertness, Awesome Blow, Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (slam), Improved Sunder, Iron Will, Power Attack


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 28, 2009)

Let's not give them any Epic feats. They don't strike me as particularly Epic.

How's about: Awesome Blow, Cleave, Great Cleave, Imp. Bull's Rush, Imp. Crit (slam), Imp. Initiative, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (slam)


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## freyar (Jan 29, 2009)

Agreed with no epic.

This is why I find it weird for the little ones to use the big ones' feats.  A 3HD thing using Awesome Blow?


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## Shade (Jan 30, 2009)

I think it's kind of fun having low-level critters using some feats that wouldn't normally be available so early.  

That being said, we should probably note whether they need to meet the prereqs of the feats to use them.   Technically, a Small or Medium creature can't use Awesome Blow, for example.


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## freyar (Jan 30, 2009)

Yeah, that's basically my point.  

If we make them meet the prereqs (using the largest member's feats and skill ranks), I'm happy with it.  We could use Awesome Blow as an example -- the small ones meet the feat prereqs but not the size prereqs.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 30, 2009)

I agree with needing to meet other prereqs. I think Awesome Blow is the only one that gets disqualified that way.


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## Shade (Jan 30, 2009)

Sounds good.



> However, if the horde loses more than 10% of its bodies in a single activity (one battle, for example), the creature either decides to resolve the problem peacefully (by negotiating or fleeing) or calls another horde for assistance.




Skills: 9 at 24 ranks
Concentration, Diplomacy, Jump, Listen, Knowledge (the planes), Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Tumble?

I'm thinking Diplomacy and Tumble to aid in "negotiating or fleeing".


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## freyar (Jan 30, 2009)

Looks about right!

Since these all have the same Int, we can just say that skills reduce in rank appropriately by HD of largest member, at least when all skills are maxed out.


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## Shade (Jan 30, 2009)

Yes, that would make scaling easy.  Simply add or remove 1 rank per Hit Die added/removed from greatest member.


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## freyar (Jan 31, 2009)

Want to add that to the collective mind entry? 

Let's list the feats in order that they would get them.  Let's say: Improved Initiative, 
Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Focus (slam), Improved Bull Rush, Improved Crit (slam), Awesome Blow.  Does that work with the prereqs (I didn't check)?


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## Shade (Feb 3, 2009)

Sounds good, except we lost a feat somewhere.  They should have 8.


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## freyar (Feb 4, 2009)

Hmm, I dropped Great Cleave somehow.  Maybe Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Focus (slam), Great Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Crit (slam), Awesome Blow?


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## Shade (Feb 4, 2009)

Updated.  Whew!


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## Shade (Feb 6, 2009)

We'll need to figure out AC for each size.   Should we just follow the earth elemental (Small = +7, Med = +8, Large = +9, Huge = +11)?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 6, 2009)

I think we should give the Small less and the Huge more. Have a wider spread. 
Small +5
Medium +8
Large +10
Huge +13?


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## Shade (Feb 6, 2009)

Updated.

Telepathy 100 ft. for communicating with other creatures?

Challenge Ratings?


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## freyar (Feb 8, 2009)

You need to change "skill" to "feat" when saying that they need to meet prereqs in Collective Mind.

Telepathy 100 ft makes sense.

Umm, CR 3, 4, 7, 10?  Hard to tell with the extra feats.  

Also, since we're assuming a 21 HD "leader," should we stat up one at 21 HD?


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## Shade (Feb 9, 2009)

Good idea.  Updated with a "leader".  Should we call them something else, like an "alpha"?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 9, 2009)

Alpha works. It's better than "queen".


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## Shade (Feb 9, 2009)

Or we could dig deep into 80's cartoon geekery and call it "Horde Prime".


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## freyar (Feb 9, 2009)

How about just Locutus? 

Either prime or alpha works for me.  CR 14 is probably about right.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 10, 2009)

We should give the Alpha Horde more ability points, as it's advanced from a standard Huge horde. One at 16 and 20 HD: 1 each into Str and Con, boosting those to 30 and 22?


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## Shade (Feb 10, 2009)

Good point.  Updated.

We'll need to address these...



> A horde dies only if all its bodies are destroyed.  If any body escapes, the horde immediately begins to rebuild.  It can create a replacement body (or increase the size of a physically inactive body) at the rate of 1 Hit Die per turn. The horde cannot use ESP or telekinesis while creating or increasing a body’s size.






> However, the horde life force can control bodies only within an area 100 miles across.  If one of the horde’s bodies is taken outside this range, that body becomes a mindless thing and dies in 1-10 days.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 10, 2009)

1 HD a turn! That's ridiculous! We should make it 1 HD a day or hour. Something like...

Communal Immortality (Su): In order to destroy the horde, all its members must be slain, or it can rejuvenate. So long as a single horde entity remains alive, it can create new bodies or increase its own power at a rate of 1 HD a (time period) until the size of the previous horde is reached.

Communal Reliance (Su): The consciousness of the horde is communal, and leaves any member separated by too much distance. Any horde entity that travels more than 100 miles from the farthest other horde entity in its (horde?) is stricken as per a feeblemind spell, and dies in 1d10 days. Since the horde can communicate with each other and know of this weakness, this will generally only occur if a horde entity is forcibly moved.

I'm still not too keen on the phrasing of communal reliance. Thoughts?


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## freyar (Feb 10, 2009)

Make it an hour for Immortality.  Reliance looks good to me, and I think horde is ok there.


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## Shade (Feb 10, 2009)

Since you requested some wordsmithing, here goes...

Communal Reliance (Su): Great distances may sever a member's ties to the communal consciousness of the horde. A horde entity that strays more than 100 miles from the farthest other member of its horde is stricken as per a feeblemind spell.  Should the straying entity return within range, the feeblemind effect is immediately removed.  An entity that remains out of contact for more than 24 hours will perish 1d10 days thereafter (no save). Since all horde entities are in constant communication with each other and are aware of this weakness, this will generally only occur if a horde entity is forcibly moved.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 10, 2009)

Looks good to me.


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## Shade (Feb 11, 2009)

Updated.

Anything left?


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## freyar (Feb 11, 2009)

Looks done!


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 11, 2009)

I think so too.


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## Shade (Feb 12, 2009)

These fairies come from the "Eastern Mythos" section of Supplement IV, which seems to be primarily based on Chinese mythology.

*FAIRIES *
Armor Class -- 7
Move: 9"
Hit Points: 25 
Magic Ability: (See Below) 
Fighter Ability: 2nd Level
Psionic Ability: Class 4

At the top of every large mountain is a group of 1-10 Fairies. These beings stand 1 foot tall with gossamer wings and a delicate elfin appearance. One member of this group is a 15th level wizard and the rest are from the 7th to the 10th. They are very afraid of mortals and will react violently at any incursion of their land.

----------------------------------------------------

I'm not sure if there's enough information to make them worthy of conversion.  I suppose we could pursue the psionic angle (since they're aren't many psionic fey), or use it as a springboard for some Chinese fey that haven't gotten the D&D treatment.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 12, 2009)

Let's go for the springboard idea.


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## Shade (Feb 12, 2009)

Here's one possibility:

Huli jing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Also...

The etymology of kui 夔 relates with wei 犩 "yak; buffalo". Eberhard (1968:57-8) suggested Kui "mountain spirits that looked like a drum and had only one leg" was "without doubt phonetically related" to the variant name hui 暉; both were classified as shanxiao 山魈 "mountain demons" ("mandrill" in modern Chinese). He concludes there were two series of names for "one-legged mountain imps", xiao or chao in the southeastern languages of Yue and Yao, and kui or hui "from a more western language".

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kui_(Chinese_mythology)


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## freyar (Feb 13, 2009)

Whatever we do, let's make them psionic as well.


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## Shade (Feb 17, 2009)

Hmmm...is the huli jin to similar to the kitsune?

The shanxiao "one-legged mountain imps", or "mountain spirits that looked like a drum and had only one leg", might be a more unique springboard.


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## freyar (Feb 17, 2009)

I think the one-legged mountain imps sound right, as the original monsters are also mountainous.  Besides, it's a great description.


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## Shade (Feb 17, 2009)

It is a great description...I just wish I could find more on them.


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## Shade (Mar 10, 2009)

Since we never really got going on those "faeries", lets move on to a plant...

*Snap Dragon, Flower*
Armor Class: 9
Hit Dice: 1 hp*
Move: 3’ (1’
Attacks: Pollen cloud
Damage: Special
No. Appearing: 0 (5-20)
Save As: Fighter: 1
Morale: 12
Treasure Type: Nil
Intelligence: 1
Alignment: Neutral
XP Value: 0

*Snap Dragon, Pollen Dragon*
Armor Class: 3
Hit Dice: 2+2*
Move: 120’ (40’)
Attacks: 1 bite or 1 breath
Damage: 1-6 or 1-10
No. Appearing: Special
Save As: Fighter: 6
Morale: 12
Treasure Type: Nil
Intelligence: N/A
Alignment: N/A
XP Value: 35

Snap dragons are small attractive flowers which grow in the midst of other small plants.  Despite their appearance, and their inability to make any form of physical attack, these plants are both carnivorous and dangerous.

The ability of snap-dragons to kill creatures for food comes from a special, magical, hallucinogenic pollen which they release into the air.  Any creature coming within 20 feet of a bed of snap-dragons must make a saving throw vs. poison or be intoxicated by the pollen.  The effect on the victims is to make them (as a group) believe that each of the snap dragon flowers is, in fact, a small, fierce dragon (see above for statistics).  These imaginary “pollen dragons” will seem to attack the group of intoxicated victims and, unlike the products of a phantasmal force spell, andy damage they seem to do has full effect.  The pollen dragons can attack with a bite or (once only each) with a breath weapon of choking dust (10’x10’x10’) which inflicts 1d10 points of damage (halved by a successful saving throw vs. breath).  As each pollen dragon is reduced to zero hit points or less, it vanishes and the corresponding snap dragon plant withers and dies.  Only once all dragons are destroyed will the illusion be broken.

Creatures unaffected by the pollen cannot see or hear the illusory dragons, and cannot affect them in any way.  Even killing the snap dragon plants will not harm the illusions (since these exist in the victims’ minds).

Originally appeared in ST1 - Up the Garden Path (1986).


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## freyar (Mar 10, 2009)

Yeah, there just wasn't enough on those, but we can return to them later.  

These snap dragons are cool!  So, shall we start with the flowers?  Fine plants, maybe, 1/4 HD?


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## Echohawk (Mar 10, 2009)

Woot! One of the critters from the ultra-rare adventure ST1 is finally up for conversion.

<does a happy dance>


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## GrayLinnorm (Mar 10, 2009)

We could use shadow conjuration as a guideline for the pollen dragons.


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## Shade (Mar 10, 2009)

Echohawk said:


> Woot! One of the critters from the ultra-rare adventure ST1 is finally up for conversion.
> 
> <does a happy dance>




And only because you found the scan of the monsters page on an eBay auction.  Oh, happy fate!  



freyar said:


> These snap dragons are cool!  So, shall we start with the flowers?  Fine plants, maybe, 1/4 HD?




That sounds reasonable.



GrayLinnorm said:


> We could use shadow conjuration as a guideline for the pollen dragons.




That seems like a good plan.


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## freyar (Mar 10, 2009)

All I think we'd need to change from shadow conjuration is dropping the 20% to 0% for creatures that succeed on their save.


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## Shade (Mar 11, 2009)

Hmmm...if we're reducing the disbelief to totally negating it, then it can be simplified greatly.

Here's a start...

Pollen Dragon (Su):  A snap dragon continually releases a magical, hallucinogenic pollen in a 20-foot-radius.  Any creature entering this area must succeed on a DC X Will save or believe that small, fierce dragons are attacking them.  This is a mind-affecting, illusion effect.  The save DC is Charisma(?)-based.

Pollen dragons have the following statistics:

Tiny dragon?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 11, 2009)

Treat them like non-venomous psuedodragons, perhaps? Or white wyrmlings?


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## Shade (Mar 11, 2009)

The psuedodragon would work perfectly!

*Pollen Dragon*
Tiny Dragon
Hit Dice: 2d12+2 (15 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 15 ft. (3 squares), fly 60 ft. (good)
Armor Class: 18 (+2 size, +2 Dex, +4 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 16
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/–8
Attack: Bite +4 melee (1d6–2)
Full Attack: Bite +4 melee (1d6–2)
Space/Reach: 2½ ft./0 ft. 
Special Attacks: Breath weapon
Special Qualities: Blindsense 60 ft., darkvision 60 ft., immunity to sleep and paralysis, low-light vision, spell resistance 19, telepathy 60 ft.
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +5, Will +4
Abilities: Str 6, Dex 15, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 10
Skills: Diplomacy +2, Hide +20*, Listen +9, Search +6, Sense Motive +7, Spot +9, Survival +1 (+3 following tracks)
Feats: Alertness, Weapon Finesse (B)

Breath Weapon (Su): Cloud of choking dust 10 feet high, 10 feet wide, and 10 feet long, once every 1d4 rounds, damage 1d10, Reflex DC 12 half. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Add some secondary effect of "choking dust", maybe like dust mephit?

Drop spell resistance?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 11, 2009)

Drop spell resistance. Choking dust makes targets sickened on a failed save?


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## freyar (Mar 12, 2009)

Sickened for 1d4 rounds?

Complete negation of the illusion on a successful save is in the original text, which is why I suggested it.


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## Shade (Mar 12, 2009)

Sounds good.

Let's pin down ability scores for the snap dragons themselves, so we can get the Homebrews going.

Str 1, Dex 1, Con 10, Int 1, Wis 11, Cha 11?


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## freyar (Mar 12, 2009)

I was going to suggest bumping Cha for the save DC, but I think these are low enough CR we don't need to boost that too much.  So I think those look pretty good.


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## Shade (Mar 12, 2009)

Plus, there's always Ability Focus.  What better way to burn their feat slot?  

Added to Homebrews.

Should we make the pollen dragons mindless?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 12, 2009)

Yes.


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## Shade (Mar 12, 2009)

Updated.

Skills: 4
Put it all in Spot?

Feats: Ability Focus (pollen dragon)?

Environment: Any temperate or warm land?

Organization: Solitary or x (5-20).  Bed?  Patch?  

Challenge Rating: 1/2?  It's essentially a less-effective pseudodragon (CR 1)

Treasure: Half standard (from past victims)?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 12, 2009)

CR .5, half standard treasure all work for me. Shouldn't we give them camouflage?


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## freyar (Mar 12, 2009)

All that sounds about right, including camouflage.

Let's make the group a patch.

For the pollen dragon, since it exists in the victim's mind, let's say that they use tactics as imagined by the victim, which might let them be more effective than mindless.


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## Shade (Mar 13, 2009)

Excellent suggestions.   Updated.


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## freyar (Mar 13, 2009)

Let's just note that killing the snap dragon does not destroy the pollen dragon since it exists in the victim's mind, and I think we're done.


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## Shade (Mar 17, 2009)

Good point.  Plus this...



> As each pollen dragon is reduced to zero hit points or less, it vanishes and the corresponding snap dragon plant withers and dies.




Updated pollen dragon ability to account for both.


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## freyar (Mar 17, 2009)

Looks good to me!


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 17, 2009)

Indeed. Are we done here?


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## Shade (Mar 18, 2009)

*Grab Grass*
AC: 9
HD: 1 per 5’ square
Movement: 0
Attacks: 1
Damage: Special
No. Appearing: not applicable
Save As: Normal Man
Morale: 12
Treasure Type: Nil
Alignment: Neutral

Grab grass looks like ordinary tall grass (3-5' tall). Grab grass is animated and will attempt to hold any individual that moves into or through it. There is a 5% chance each round that anyone with a strength of 12 or less can break free of the grab grass. For every point of strength greater than 12 the chance increases by 5% (an individual with 16 strength, for example, would have a 25% chance each round to break free). The grab grass patch has one hit die for every 5' square area (thus 5' square are destroyed for every 8 hit points of damage done to the grab grass).

Originally appeared in X2 – Castle Amber (1981).


The Companion Set and Rules Cyclopedia versions are essentially the same.  The Mystara Monstrous Compendium Appendix version follows...

*Grab Grass*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Nonarctic plains and hills
FREQUENCY: Common
ORGANIZATION: Solitary 
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Non (0)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1 patch
ARMOR CLASS: 9
MOVEMENT: 3
HIT DICE: 1 per 5’ square
THAC0: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: 0
DAMAGE/ATTACK: Special
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Grab
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: S-M (3-5’ tall)
MORALE: Steady (12)
LEVEL/XP VALUE: 35

Ranging 3 to 5 feet in height, grab grass looks like ordinary tall grass. Grab grass is able to move, and often gives the impression of swaying in a breeze.

The grass attacks by wrapping long tendrils around unsuspecting victims and strangling them. The strangling process drains one point of Constitution from a victim each round. A victim who reaches 0 Constitution dies. The decomposing body then feeds the plant. Victims who escape the grass regain one point of Constitution per turn of rest. A victim can break free from grab grass with a successful bend bars roll.

A grab grass patch has 1 Hit Die for every 5-foot square of area, and each Hit Die is worth a full 8 hit points. A 5-foot by 5-foot square of grass is mutilated into death for every 8 points of damage done to the grass.  Since the grass sways of its own volition, PCs looking in the direction of the grass may notice its swaying in absence of a breeze. The DM may allow an ability check against Intelligence or Wisdom (whichever is higher) in order for the character to notice that something is not quite right.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 18, 2009)

Strangling usually doesn't do Con damage... work off of suffocation instead, perhaps?


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## freyar (Mar 18, 2009)

How about the garrote rules updated to 3.5 in one of the last Dragons?


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## Shade (Mar 19, 2009)

Here are the garrote rules as summarized by you.


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## freyar (Mar 19, 2009)

So maybe we want something that makes a touch attack and grapples to force the victim to hold its breath?  Did we end up using these in the other case?  (Strangleweed or something.)


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## Shade (Mar 19, 2009)

Hmmm....

It doesn't appear that we've converted the strangleweed.  I searched the forums for "suffocate", and it seems we considered using it for the eolian, and better judgement prevailed.   Beyond that, we only worked on it with one of the dragons for coming up with immunity to strangulation.


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## freyar (Mar 20, 2009)

Ahh, right, we didn't end up using it.  Let's try this:

Grass Garrote (Ex): If grab grass succeeds on a touch attack against an opponent, it can immediately make a grapple check as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.  If the grass wins the grapple check, its victim must begin to hold its breath. The victim must continue to hold its breath or begin suffocating until succeeding on an opposed grapple check to escape.  Grab grass has a +X racial bonus to grapple checks, which is reflected in the statistics above.


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## Shade (Mar 20, 2009)

I like it!

Let's also add "Additionally, an affected creature cannot speak or cast spells with verbal components." since it just makes sense.


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## freyar (Mar 20, 2009)

Excellent suggestion!  Should we also add that the victim and/or grass are considered grappled, since this is more or less a grapple attack?


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## Shade (Mar 20, 2009)

Possibly.

Let's figure out the basics.   Go with Medium and 5-foot-square patch as base?   I'm assuming one attack per 5-foot-square, so should we say that for each additional 5-foot-square of space, it gains an additional attack?

Since it has a converted AC of only 19, and essentially gains 4 bonus hp/HD, how about...

Str 15, Dex 13, Con 18, Int -, Wis 11, Cha 1?


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## freyar (Mar 20, 2009)

You mean AC 11. 

Abilities seem fine to me.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 20, 2009)

I think we should specify "not cast spells with verbal components". If someone grappled by these guys gets off a stilled, silent spell, I say let 'em.


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## freyar (Mar 20, 2009)

We're agreed on that.  I guess the question for me is if this specific kind of grapple should prevent use of somatic components or not.  I'd have to go look up the precise garrote rules to see what they say (my summary linked above isn't that complete).


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 20, 2009)

Well, the "treated as grappled" leads me to believe that.


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## freyar (Mar 21, 2009)

Well, it's not quite a normal grapple.  Here's Dragon 355: 



			
				Dragon 355 said:
			
		

> You must use both hands to strangle (...) and cannot take any of the following grapple actions: attack your opponent, retrieve a spell component, or use an opponent's weapon.  A creature being strangled cannot attempt to pin an opponent, take an opponent's weapon used to garrote him, speak, or take any vocal actions (such as casting a spell with a verbal component).



This suggests to me that you can use somatic components; after all, your arms aren't pinned.


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## Shade (Mar 23, 2009)

freyar said:


> This suggests to me that you can use somatic components; after all, your arms aren't pinned.




Agreed.  Although, we could just go for the simplification of the similar-themed choker...

Constrict (Ex): A choker deals 1d3+3 points of damage with a successful grapple check against a Large or smaller creature. Because it seizes its victim by the neck, a creature in the choker’s grasp cannot speak or cast spells with verbal components.


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## Shade (Mar 24, 2009)

Added what we've got so far to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Mar 24, 2009)

Sure, we don't have to allow somatic components.


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## Shade (Mar 25, 2009)

Extended reach for tendrils?

Any other special abilities?


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## freyar (Mar 25, 2009)

Let's give it 10 ft on tendrils, and we can go either way on the grass garrote (what's there, or the choker-like ability).  

I don't see the need for any other special abilities.  Maybe CR 1 because it's not too easy to spot at 1st level?


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## Shade (Mar 26, 2009)

Agreed on all that.   Does anyone have a preference for grass garrotte vs. improved grab/constrict?


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## freyar (Mar 26, 2009)

There's not a whole lot of difference, really.  The garrote might be a little more deadly due to the suffocation rules, and it allows us a little more freedom with allowing somatic components, etc.  But I'm ok with the choker-type constrict, too.


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## Shade (Mar 27, 2009)

Actually, let's stick with grass garrote, since constrict doesn't really allow for suffocation rather than standard damage.

Updated.


Environment: Temperate and warm plains and hills?

Organization: Solitary or patch (2-x)

Treasure: None?

Advancement: 2-4 HD (Medium); 5-8 HD (Large); 9-12 HD (Huge) and see text?

Advanced Grab Grasses

For each additional 5-foot-square of space, a grab grass gains an additional tendril attack.


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## freyar (Mar 27, 2009)

I like all that, and let's let a patch be 2d6.

For the garrote, how about adding a line that somatic components are not restricted?


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## Shade (Mar 27, 2009)

Updated.

+4 racial bonus on grapple checks?


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## freyar (Mar 28, 2009)

Maybe +2.  Make it a little tough, but escapable.


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## Shade (Mar 30, 2009)

Updated.  Finished?


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## freyar (Mar 30, 2009)

It's simple, but I think it's done.  The flavor text about moving is a bit weird, since they have 0 speed, but we could just add that it's incredibly slow on normal time scales.


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## Shade (Mar 30, 2009)

Oops!  I based that off the MC version which lists "Movement: 3".

So...do we give them a base speed of 5 ft., or drop the flavor bit?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 30, 2009)

Let's let them move. We've done a ton of immobile plants lately.


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## Shade (Mar 30, 2009)

Sounds good.  Updated.  Finished?


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## freyar (Mar 30, 2009)

I'm happy with it.  I noticed that the advanced grab grasses section has  a "gras" in it instead of  "grass."  But then it's good.


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## Shade (Mar 30, 2009)

I'll fix that.

Moving on...

*Vampire Vine*
Armor Class -- 8
Move: 0
Hit Points: 50
Magic Ability: (see below)
Fighter Ability: 10th Level

A vine with pointed leaves, crimson blossoms, and the ability to plant itself in the most severe environments. It grabs its victims and immediately begins to suck the blood out of them. This plant goes one step further in its play for survival in that it puts the victims in a stasis which keeps them alive. The plant can keep up to 4 being at the same time.

Originally appeared in Supplement IV: Gods, Demigods, Heroes (1976).


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 30, 2009)

Start by advancing an assassin vine. Instead of constrict, go for blood drain. Any creature that has its blood drained, at the vine's option, is forced to make a Fortitude save or be held as by sepia snake sigil, dismissable at the vine's will. This duration acts as if they were resting, allowing them to recuperate Con... so the vine can drink it again.


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## freyar (Mar 31, 2009)

Sounds right to me.


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## Shade (Mar 31, 2009)

Yeah, I like that approach.

"Divide by 4.5" rule yields 11 HD.   An 11-HD assassin vine is Huge.  Start at that size and HD?


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## freyar (Mar 31, 2009)

That seems fair enough.  If we want, we can tweak abilities from there.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 31, 2009)

Starting with an 11 HD Huge vine appeals.


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## Shade (Mar 31, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

Keep the assassin vine's entangle ability?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 31, 2009)

Ditch entangle, I think.


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## Shade (Apr 1, 2009)

Updated.

Do we want to add anything else, or label this "easiest conversion of the month"?

CR 6?


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## freyar (Apr 1, 2009)

Might want to drop the "subterranean" bit in the camouflage section, or else add "underground" to the environment line.  CR 6 is probably ok.  And I'm ok with calling this one easy.


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## Shade (Apr 1, 2009)

Since it has "the ability to plant itself in the most severe environments", I'd say underground is a worthy addition to the environment line.

EDIT:  Also, we need to fill in a few x's...

A mature plant consists of a main vine, about x feet long. Smaller vines up to x feet long branch off of the main vine about every 6 inches. These small vines bear clusters of leaves which sprout crimson blossoms in the spring and bear bloated, blood-red fruits the size of cherries in the late summer.


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## freyar (Apr 1, 2009)

I think the exceptional reach needs to say with slam rather than with vine, too.

30 ft long, 5 ft smaller vines?


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 1, 2009)

And you forgot the part about putting victims into stasis!


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## Shade (Apr 1, 2009)

Whoa...that is an important bit!

Here's a start...


Stasis (Su):  A vampire vine may place any victim it has successfully blood drained into stasis.  The victim must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or become preserved in a state of suspended animation, unaware of its surroundings. It can be damaged by outside forces (and perhaps even killed), but a dying subject does not lose hit points or become stable until the spell ends.  The subject does not age, breathe, grow hungry, sleep, or regain spells. It does, however, regain lost hit points and ability damage as if it were resting (allowing the vampire vine a renewable food source).  The save DC is Charisma-based.

This stasis may be dismissed by the vampire vine at any time, or can be ended by a break enchantment, freedom of movement, limited wish, wish, or miracle spell.


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## freyar (Apr 1, 2009)

I forgot that one, too. 

Vine Stasis (Su): As a standard action, a vampire vine may attempt to place any creature it is currently grappling into a form of suspended animation.  The victim must make a DC X Fortitude save or enter suspended animation for 1d4 days.  This functions as the sepia snake sigil spell, except that the victim regenerates Constitution damage as if resting.  The save DC is Charisma-based.

How's that?

Edit: missed Shade's post above.  I think I like his better, too.


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## Shade (Apr 1, 2009)

Assuming there's no objections to the stasis writeup above, should we boost the Cha?   Currently, it has Cha 9, and thus a -1 modifier on the save DC.


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## freyar (Apr 2, 2009)

Just go to Cha 11, I think.  The DC shouldn't be too high, or else it would never have to attack anything.  It'd just keep the same animal around until it starves.


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## Shade (Apr 2, 2009)

UPdated.

Complete?


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## freyar (Apr 2, 2009)

Should we put in a duration for the stasis, or is there not a whole lot of a point to that?


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## Shade (Apr 2, 2009)

I think if we slip a "permanent" somewhere in the text we should be good.


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## freyar (Apr 2, 2009)

That works for me.  Then I think it's done.


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## Shade (Apr 2, 2009)

Done.  I also added that the vampire vine's death frees the victim.


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## freyar (Apr 2, 2009)

Good idea!


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 2, 2009)

We should mention in the flavor text that the greedy vampire vine often accidentally drinks its victims dry, thus necessitating new catches.

Perhaps it should gain temp hp from draining blood? We could even make it tomb-tainted, to further differentiate it from the assassin vine.


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## freyar (Apr 2, 2009)

I like the flavor text and temp hp, but I'm not so sure about tomb-tainted.  Seems to be a lot less call for that than some other cases we've had.


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## Shade (Apr 6, 2009)

Good suggestions on the temp hps and "greediness".

Updated.


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## freyar (Apr 6, 2009)

Should we add that it's a relative of the assassin vine?  Otherwise, it looks pretty good.


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## Shade (Jun 22, 2009)

Since worms are all the rage at the moment...

*Slime Worm*
Armor Class: 5 No. Appearing: 1
Hit Dice: 10 Save As: Fighter 5
Movement: 60 (20) Morale: 9
Attacks: 1 bite Treasure Type: D
Damage: 2-12 Alignment: Neutral

Slime worms are giant-sized worms that secrete a sticky substance that coats their backs. They roll in treasure hordes so that their backs are covered with coins, jewels, weapons, armor, etc. The slime does not affect attacks. There is a chance (a roll of 1-5 on ld6) that a slime worm will be indistinguishable from a large pile of treasure. Slime worms attack with surprise whenever possible. They swallow their prey whole on an unmodified to hit roll of 18 or more. Swallowed prey will take 2-12 points of damage per round until dead or free (similar to a purple worm).

Originally appeared in X2 Castle Amber (1981).

Mystara Monstrous Compendium version...

*Slime Worm*
Climate/Terrain: Subterranean
Frequency: Very rare
Organization: Solitary
Activity Cycle: Any
Diet: Carnivore
Intelligence: Non- (0)
Treasure: D
Alignment: Neutral
No. Appearing: 1
Armor Class: 5
Move: 6
Hit Dice: 10
THAC0: 11
No. Attacks: 1
Damage/Attack: 2d6 (bite)
Special Attacks: Swallow
Special Defenses: Nil
Magic Resisance: Nil
Size: G (30’ long)
Morale: Average (10)
XP Value: 2,000

These giant worms are a pale, mottled gray. They excrete a sticky slime that coats their backs and sides. Small objects such as coins and other treasure stick to the slime, making the creature indistinguishable from a large pile of treasure.

When camouflaged, there is only a 15% chance that anyone will recognize a slime worm as anything but a pile of objects. If its victims are unaware of the slime worm, it attacks from ambush. On a successful unadjusted attack roll of 18 or-better, slime worms can swallow creatures of up to large (L) size (an unmodified attack roll of 20 always indicates that the target has been swallowed). Once inside, a victim suffers 2d6 points of damage each round until he or she escapes or the slime worm is killed. The victim can escape unaided only if he or she was holding a small piercing or slashing weapon when swallowed. A slime worm has an internal Armor Class of 8 and the victim must inflict 10 points of damage to cut a way out. He or she suffers the same combat penalties as victims of great annelids.

A slime worm's gullet can hold one large creature, two human-sized creatures, four small creatures, or eight tiny creatures. If a slime worm fills its gullet during a fight, it continues to attack but cannot swallow additional victims.


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## freyar (Jun 23, 2009)

Sticky stuff that does nothing in combat?  

I'll be traveling some tomorrow, so might not be posting much.  The next week may or may not be slow for me, too.


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## Cleon (Jun 23, 2009)

Nice idea for a "pretend to be something else" monster, simple but effective. 

I don't much care for the "Slime Worm" name, maybe add in a mention that it has alternative names like "Horde Worm" or "Treasure Worm"?

Statswise, it looks like we'll want to modify the Purple Worm.

*Huge Magical Beast* (_It's under half as long as the Gargantuan Purple_)
*Hit Dice: **10d10+50 (105) *(_straightforward_)
*Speed: 20 ft.* (_no burrow or swim, unlike a Purple_)
*AC: 21 (-2 size, -2 Dex, +15 natural), touch 6, flat-footed 21*
(_It has a better AC than a purple, if we give it the same NA it ends up AC21 since it only has a -2 size penalty. Although I'm tempted to give it a +12 NA and +3 armour from all the coins, gems & assorted junk sticking to its skin which makes_* AC: 21 (-2 size, -2 Dex, +12 natural, +3 armour)*)
*Attacks: Bite +16 melee (2d6+12)*
*Special Attacks: Improved grab, swallow whole
*(_Can swallow up to one size smaller than itself, 1 Large / 4 Medium / 16 Small et cetera_)*
Special Qualities: Mimic horde, tremorsense 60 ft.*
*Abilities: Str 27, Dex 6, Con 21, Int 1, Wis 8, Cha 8*
(_Downsized Purple Worm. I know the original is Int 0, but I like the idea of it having at least animal-level intelligence. It fits its behaviour better. M__aybe tweak the Dexterity up a few points and lower its natural armour a bit? I was tempted to increase its Cha to help its Disguise and to reflect that it's covered in shinies, but decided against it._)
*Skills: 13 points?*
(_All in Disguise? Give it a hefty racial bonus to Disguise?_)
*Feats: 4?* (_Pick some of a Purple Worm's feats?_)
*Environment: Underground
Organization: Solitary
Treasure: Triple coins, double goods, 50% items?
*(_Needs lots of loot to cover itself with, but I don't want them to be excessively valuable_)

That looks like a good start to me.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 24, 2009)

The similar carcass crab from the Eberron Campaign Setting has both a natural armor bonus and an armor bonus, from being covered with junk. I think Hide is more appropriate than Disguise to model the camo (although there's the mimic precedent).


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## freyar (Jun 25, 2009)

I like the idea of armor as well as natural armor.  Like Cleon, I'm thinking up to +3 from treasure.  Cleon, did that AC come from the downsized purple worm?  Wouldn't a downsized purple worm have natural AC +11?  I'd be willing to go with natural +8, junk armor +3, even.

Hide vs Disguise, I'm not sure.  I'm also not sure about Int 1 vs Int -.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 25, 2009)

I'd be fine with either Int 1 or -. Int 1 does give the advantage of giving them access to feats and skills.


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## Shade (Jun 25, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

I left off the skills for now, until we can decide on Disguise vs. Hide.

For the feats, if we whittle down the purple worm's list, we can immediately remove Weapon Focus (sting).  That leaves Awesome Blow, Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (bite).   I'd propose dropping Cleave.


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## Leopold (Jun 25, 2009)

I agree with dropping cleave. One attack and it mashes and crushes stuff to pieces.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 25, 2009)

If it helps my case any, the carcass crab uses Hide.


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## Shade (Jun 25, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> If it helps my case any, the carcass crab uses Hide.




It does.  I'm convinced.


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## freyar (Jun 25, 2009)

Proposed feats are good, as is Hide.


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## Cleon (Jun 26, 2009)

freyar said:


> I like the idea of armor as well as natural armor.  Like Cleon, I'm thinking up to +3 from treasure.  Cleon, did that AC come from the downsized purple worm?  Wouldn't a downsized purple worm have natural AC +11?  I'd be willing to go with natural +8, junk armor +3, even.
> 
> Hide vs Disguise, I'm not sure.  I'm also not sure about Int 1 vs Int -.




No downsizing, I just gave it a regular-sized Purple Worm's NA since the AD&D version of the Slime Worm has a better AC than an AD&D Purple Worm. I like the idea of it being a tough nut to crack, and AC17 just doesn't seem enough to me.

Go on, give it another 4 points of natural armour, I know you want to.

I'm tempted to keep the Cleave feat so it has the potential to swallow more than one opponent in a round. Awesome Blow has its disadvantages: shouldn't it be trying to catch and swallow opponents, not knock them away? With its slow move speed it might never be able to get within reach of them again!

Although Awesome Blow's ability to knock an enemy prone is useful for the slime worm, since a prone opponent can't immediately run away, and the worm gets an AoO attempt to bite & swallow them if they stand up to flee.

So, I'd be tempted to change Improved Bull Rush to Improved Overrun, so it can get Cleave and still easily knock an enemy prone. An advanced Slime Worm presumably adds Awesome Blow and Improved Bull Rush to its feats.


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## Shade (Jun 26, 2009)

Cleon, your reasoning is sound.  I agree to the improved natural armor, as well as your feat suggestions.  

Updated.

How are we handling the hide bonus/"mimic hoard" business?


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## Cleon (Jun 26, 2009)

Shade said:


> Cleon, your reasoning is sound.  I agree to the improved natural armor, as well as your feat suggestions.




Thank you kindly.

I've been thinking we may want to add a slam attack to this beastie, so if it grabs a victim with its jaws but fails to swallow them it can still attack another enemy with a body-slam or tail-slap the next round (probably trying to knock them prone with an overrun), or when it gets an attack of opportunity. After all, a Purple Worm gets two attacks, why not a Slime Worm?

If you like the idea, I'd set the damage the same as its bite. With regular damage bonuses, that works out as:*Attack:* Bite +17 melee (2d6+8) or slam +17 melee (2d6+8)
*Full Attack:* Bite +17 melee (2d6+8) and slam +12 melee (2d6+4)​Oh, and the current conversion still has a Purple Worm's saves. I reckon they should be:*Saves:* Fort +12, Ref +5, Will +2​


Shade said:


> How are we handling the hide bonus/"mimic hoard" business?



My first thought was a rewrite of the Mimic's ability Mimic Shape, something like:*Mimic Horde (Ex)*
 A slime worm can assume the shape and appearance of a pile of treasure that fills roughly 1000 cubic feet (e.g. a mound roughly 15 feet in diameter and 6 feet tall). The creature cannot substantially alter its size, though. A slime worm's gelatinous flesh is slimy and yielding, no matter what appearance it may present, although the treasure adhering to its hide may give it a rough and metallic texture. Anyone who examines the slime worm can detect the ruse with a successful Spot check opposed by the mimic’s Disguise check. Of course, by this time it is generally far too late.

 *[*_The 1000 cubic foot volume was set on the assumptions that a Slime Worm's flesh has the same density as a Gelatinous Cube or Gray Ooze (15 pounds per cubic foot), and an average worm weighs 15,000 pounds. Since it is the same thickness and 3/8th the length of a Purple Worm it seems reasonable to deduce it weighs 3/8th the Purple's 40,000 pounds._*]*
​I guess you can change the Disguise to Hide, but I prefer the former since (a) it seems more appropriate and (b) it doesn't impose a size penalty.


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## freyar (Jun 26, 2009)

That all works for me, I'm convinced.  Edit: feats and natural armor, that is.

Speaking of being convinced, I thought we were convinced by Hide on the carcass crab.  Edit: I guess I can see going either way on the two skills as far as myself.  But I don't know about the shape and appearance.  These are Int 1 (compare to Int 10 mimic) and shouldn't know to look like a pile of treasure.  They should just instinctively use the treasure as armor, I think.  That's why I'm torn on Hide and Disguise, leaning toward Hide like the crab --- this shouldn't be a deliberate Disguise.

Edit edit: You know, something like Camouflage makes the most sense to me -- static DC.  This isn't really different than the plant critters looking like normal plants.


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## Shade (Jun 26, 2009)

Camouflage is a perfect fit!

I'm fine with adding a slam attack, and will fix the saving throw line.


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## Cleon (Jun 26, 2009)

freyar said:


> Edit edit: You know, something like Camouflage makes the most sense to me -- static DC.  This isn't really different than the plant critters looking like normal plants.



A fixed DC is a good solution to the Hide/Disguise dilemma. I was so fixated with Disguise that I discarded the notion of just setting a flat value.

Although I don't see anything wrong with using Disguise for a Int 1 critter like we did for the Marble Pudding, it is just as easy setting a HD+X DC and leaving it at that. Plus, it would free up the skill points to buy some Listen & Spot.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 27, 2009)

The carcass crab gets a high racial Hide bonus in areas littered with weapons and armor. Something similar could easily be applied to the worm.


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## Cleon (Jun 27, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> The carcass crab gets a high racial Hide bonus in areas littered with weapons and armor. Something similar could easily be applied to the worm.




Shouldn't that be a circumstance bonus?

Anyhows, if we are going the fixed DC route, what DC shall we set it at. I'm feeling 15 + Hit Dice is about the right level, with maybe a +5 circumstance bonus in areas littered with treasure. DC25/30 gives the Slime Worm a fair chance of evading detection, but without it being impossible. It would be up against ~6th level characters, some of whom probably have Spot mods of +10 or more.


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## freyar (Jun 27, 2009)

I'd guess a DC of 25 or so is reasonable.  That's probably about a 25% chance of spotting it, depending on CR.  I could see giving it Hide also, with a racial bonus.  So Hide to prevent it being noticed, Camouflage to prevent realizing it's a creature?  But Listen and Spot are also good choices.  Dunno, I'm not of a strong opinion.

(The difference for me with the marble pudding is that the pudding is pretending to be stone, something natural.  I know the slime worm is a magical beast, but it seems like it could be an animal almost.)


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## Shade (Jun 29, 2009)

Yeah, it's got that "barely magical" beast vibe.


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## freyar (Jun 29, 2009)

What's your feeling on the skills?  I'd be just as happy with Spot/Listen as with Hide.


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## Shade (Jun 30, 2009)

Let's go with just Listen like the purple worm.

I'll update it with the latest assumptions to see how it looks.

For the camouflage, normally there's some alternate skill uses, like so:

"Anyone with ranks in Survival or Knowledge (nature) can use one of those skills instead of Spot to notice the plant. Dwarves can use stonecunning to notice the subterranean version."

For slime worms, maybe Appraise?


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## freyar (Jun 30, 2009)

Listen seems fine.  

Appraise is a good idea.  Are there any kind of appropriate crafts also?


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 30, 2009)

I don't like Appraise. It's not as if they're mimicing treasure as growths--real treasure is sticking to them. Knowledge (dungeoneering), perhaps.


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## Shade (Jun 30, 2009)

Good point.  Knowing the value of the coin doesn't indicate that it's stuck to a horrid worm-thing.


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## freyar (Jun 30, 2009)

Fair enough.  Let's go with Knowledge (dungeoneering) and the regular Spot.


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## Cleon (Jul 1, 2009)

freyar said:


> Fair enough.  Let's go with Knowledge (dungeoneering) and the regular Spot.




Dungeoneering and Spot are good ideas. I quite like the idea of Appraise, though. Maybe it also changes its appearance like a mimic, and Appraise tells you those "coins" are really congealed discs of yellow slime?


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## Shade (Jul 1, 2009)

Let's just keep it "sticky", rather than make it mimic-like.

Updated.

CR 8?  Downsizing a purple worm 6 HD and one size category yields CR 9, and I'd knock off another CR for the lack of deadly poison.

The body of a mature slime worm is 5 feet in diameter and 30 feet long, weighing about x pounds.


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## freyar (Jul 1, 2009)

CR 8 is ok.

15,000 lb based on the purple worm.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 1, 2009)

CR 8 seems appropriate. Tell me, what was the rationale behind Improved Overrun?


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## freyar (Jul 1, 2009)

Just to let them knock people over.  And to add a little variety, I suppose.


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## Cleon (Jul 1, 2009)

Shade said:


> Let's just keep it "sticky", rather than make it mimic-like.
> 
> CR 8?  Downsizing a purple worm 6 HD and one size category yields CR 9, and I'd knock off another CR for the lack of deadly poison.




Even CR8 seems a bit high, I'd say 7.

A hill giant is CR7 and looks like it's roughly the same level of nastiness.

I'm thinking a Purple Worm could be a bit over-challenged.

As for the hiding under the treasure, at first I thought it was fine but then I roughed out an idea of how much its horde actually covers.

Let's assume CR8 with triple coins, the standard treasure table says that's a maximum of 36,000 coins (assuming three 12's on 1d12 × 10,000 copper pieces), but its more likely to be in the thousands (2d6 × 1,000 sp). Call it 10,000 coins. Each coin only covers about a third of a square inch (if not less - precious metal is dense and they only weigh 1/50th of a pound). That's 23 square feet, which isn't enough to cover a 5' square, let alone its entire body.

Some kind of treasure-accented mimicry makes more sense to me.



freyar said:


> 15,000 lb based on the purple worm.




I made it 15,000 pounds too.


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## Shade (Jul 1, 2009)

I think the hill giant is the one that's actually over-CRed.   The purple worm's poison is just plain _sick_.  These things can burrow relatively fast, pop up, and swallow whole.  The hill giant can, uh, throw rocks.  

While I see where you're coming from on the realism of the coins stuck to it, the mimicry would make it a whole new creature.  The sticky coins is essentially what makes a slime worm a slime worm.   If you want to introduce a bit more realism, maybe it's natural coloration is a mottled metallic, filling in the spaces between the actual coins, which are more sparsely distributed along its surface?


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## freyar (Jul 1, 2009)

I'm going to agree with Shade here.  Besides, there are probably bits of rock and broken metallic weapons and things mixed in with the coins.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 2, 2009)

Agreed with Shade. Weapons, pottery, armor, dungeon dressing in general are stuck to this thing.


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## Cleon (Jul 2, 2009)

Shade said:


> I think the hill giant is the one that's actually over-CRed.   The purple worm's poison is just plain _sick_.  These things can burrow relatively fast, pop up, and swallow whole.  The hill giant can, uh, throw rocks.
> 
> While I see where you're coming from on the realism of the coins stuck to it, the mimicry would make it a whole new creature.  The sticky coins is essentially what makes a slime worm a slime worm.   If you want to introduce a bit more realism, maybe it's natural coloration is a mottled metallic, filling in the spaces between the actual coins, which are more sparsely distributed along its surface?




Natural metallic camouflage between the coins is what I'm going for, so I'll be alright with some mention of that.

EDIT: Besides, if it had enough coins to completely cover itself they'd likely encumber it. I reckon a 30' Slime Worm would have a surface area of 250-475 square feet (assuming it ranges from a narrow cone to a cylinder). It would need about 50,000-200,000 coins to cover that area in a single layer of coins. That's 1,000-4,000 pounds, which could be within its Huge Str 27's Medium encumbrance of 2082-4158 lbs. If it has two layers of coins it would probably be in Heavy encumbrance. Although I suppose it could carefully arrange the coins so they are only on the parts of its hide that show when its "coiled into a horde".

Incidentally, just think how icky it must be to collect a Slime Worms treasure, peeling thousands of coins out of its slimy, bloody corpse.

Sounds like a job for an _unseen servant_ to me.

EDITED EDIT: Actually, that gives me an idea. Maybe its 20 ft. speed includes Medium encumbrance from 2500-3500 pounds of junk stuck to its hide, and a Slime Worm without a worthwhile horde (i.e. one without its armour bonus) has a land speed of 30 feet?


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## Cleon (Jul 2, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> CR 8 seems appropriate. Tell me, what was the rationale behind Improved Overrun?




What freyar said, the *rationale* was partially because knocking opponent's prone seemed tactically more useful for the Slime Worm and partially just to be different from a Purple Worm.


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## Shade (Jul 2, 2009)

Updated.

I'm not sure about the speed difference, as a slime worm without treasure would also lose its armor bonus and camouflage ability.  I'm not opposed to mentioning all that, but wouldn't that reduce the creature's CR a bit?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 2, 2009)

Let's just ignore it and move on. It doesn't strike me as a side project particularly worth pursuing.


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## freyar (Jul 2, 2009)

Ok, looks done!

I now have this great image of coins floating off a dead slime worm with flecks of slime flying off as the unseen servant cleans them!


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## Cleon (Jul 3, 2009)

freyar said:


> Ok, looks done!
> 
> I now have this great image of coins floating off a dead slime worm with flecks of slime flying off as the unseen servant cleans them!




Glad to be of service. The worm looks done to me, although I'd change the description so it uncoils, e.g. "_begins to move, uncoiling into a serpentine shape"._



demiurge1138 said:


> Let's just ignore it and move on. It doesn't strike me as a side project particularly worth pursuing.




Too late, after throwing out that particular coin of the imagination it stuck into the slime long enough for me to write it up.

It may not be worth including in the stats, since it's a bit fiddly and doesn't add much, but I came up with this:*Coat of Treasure (Ex):* All a slime worm's treasure is stuck to its skin's coating of slime, together with assorted shiny junk such as bits of mica, metal scraps and broken glass. This coat of treasure gives the worm a +3 armour bonus but counts as Medium encumbrance. No magic items in the coat effect the slime worm, with the exception of continuously-active items normally worn on the shoulders, such as _cloaks of resistance_, and touch-activated items, such as scarabs of death, both of which function normally.

A Slime Worm without a coat of armour has a 30 ft speed and is AC18. The DC of its camouflage ability drops to 20 and it is only Challenge Rating 7.

Removing treasure stuck in the worm's slime is a tedious, disgusting task. It takes a person one hour to remove 1000 items of treasure (e.g. 4 adventurers would need 2  [FONT=&quot]½[/FONT] hours to collect 10,000 coins from a dead slime worm). An _unseen servant_ spell can perform this task.​I'm thinking this looks like something to tag on as a sub-heading or appendix rather than included in the normal Slime Worm's entry. I don't mind if we leave it out off the regular version.

So, who (or what) is up next?


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## Cleon (Jul 4, 2009)

Shade said:


> Updated.




I still prefer "uncoiling" to "coiling" in the description, since its uncoiling from a treasure mound into a vermiform monster.

The Combat tactics is a little thin, we could add some mention of it using Improved Overrun? Something like:In battle a slime worm charges its opponents with its Improved Overrun feat, seeking to push one of them over and get into their midst. It then forms into a coil 15 feet in diameter and bites anything within reach.​EDIT: Oh, and shouldn't its Swallow Whole internal AC be 16, going by the normal 10 + half NA rule of thumb?


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## freyar (Jul 4, 2009)

I think you're right that Coat of Treasure should be an "appendix" since these should pretty much always have their coating.  But it's a nice write-up, even if we leave it off.

The tactics you suggest are good, and you're right that the gizzard AC should be 16.  Good catch!


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## Shade (Jul 6, 2009)

Cleon said:


> I still prefer "uncoiling" to "coiling" in the description, since its uncoiling from a treasure mound into a vermiform monster.
> 
> The Combat tactics is a little thin, we could add some mention of it using Improved Overrun? Something like:In battle a slime worm charges its opponents with its Improved Overrun feat, seeking to push one of them over and get into their midst. It then forms into a coil 15 feet in diameter and bites anything within reach.​EDIT: Oh, and shouldn't its Swallow Whole internal AC be 16, going by the normal 10 + half NA rule of thumb?




Good suggestions.  Updated.


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## freyar (Jul 6, 2009)

Looks done!


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## Cleon (Jul 6, 2009)

freyar said:


> Looks done!




I agree, time we let it curl up and wait for a party of adventurers while we move on to the next conversion.


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## Shade (Sep 3, 2009)

Time to convert the master naga.  The stat block is really for a standard naga, so can be largely ignored.  There is very little to go on, so we're free to get creative.  A template to add to any type of naga, perhaps?

*Naga*
Armor Class -- 5 
Move: 15"
Hit Point: 36
Magic Ability: (See Below)
Fighter Ability: 6th Level
Psionic Ability: Class 6 

Naga are of 3 different types: the guardian Naga is a creature found in temples about 20" long and spits poison, bites, or constricts; Water Naga live deep below the surface of lakes and streams and use spells as a Thaumaturgist; the master Naga has 7 cowled heads and can use cleric and wizard spells as a 10th level magic user or cleric. This last snake can regenerate 5 points per melee round and wears all of its treasure in its cowl in the form of giant gems with the older the snake the more valuable the gems.

Originally appeared in Supplement IV: Gods, Demigods, Heroes (1976).


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 4, 2009)

So, is this going to be a template or a creature? If it's a creature, is it going to be more or less powerful than the ha-naga in the Epic SRD?


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## freyar (Sep 4, 2009)

Template is an interesting idea, but I had been thinking monster.  As far as power level, there's a nice gap we could fill in the SRD nagas by pegging this at 15-17HD, so less than the ha-naga.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 4, 2009)

Sounds good to me.


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## Shade (Sep 4, 2009)

The template idea was that you could have a master of each type, such as "master spirit naga", "master dark naga", and "master guardian naga".  But a monster in the 15-17 HD range sounds fine.   

Size and HD should probably place it between these two:

Guardian Naga: 10 HD, L, Str 21, Dex 14, Con 19, Int 16, Wis 19, Cha 18
Ha-Naga: 20 HD, C, Str 27, Dex 38, Con 32, Int 35, Wis 31, Cha 36

So maybe Huge, Str 29, Dex 26, Con 25, Int 26, Wis 25, Cha 28?


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## freyar (Sep 4, 2009)

Looks good!  16 HD?


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## Shade (Sep 4, 2009)

Sure!



> the master Naga has 7 cowled heads and can use cleric and wizard spells as a 10th level magic user or cleric. This last snake can regenerate 5 points per melee round and wears all of its treasure in its cowl in the form of giant gems with the older the snake the more valuable the gems.






> Guardian nagas cast spells as 9th-level sorcerers, and can also cast spells from the cleric list and from the Good and Law domains. The cleric spells and domain spells are considered arcane spells for a guardian naga, meaning that the creature does not need a divine focus to cast them.






> Spells: Ha-nagas can cast spells as 21st-level sorcerers, and can also cast cleric spells and spells from the domains of Chaos and Evil as arcane spells




So maybe cast spells as 15th-level sorcerers, and can also cast spells from the cleric list and from the two domains?

Fast healing 5?


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## freyar (Sep 4, 2009)

That all sounds right.  The question is, what alignment and domains?  We could go true neutral and pick Scalykind and something else, but we might want to think about flavor for this.


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## Shade (Sep 4, 2009)

Good point.  We could offer variety, noting different domains for different alignments.

I just remembered to look at the nagahydra, and we might be treading a bit too closely on its turf:

Huge, 18 HD, Str 30, Dex 14, Con 20, Int 16, Wis 19, Cha 21

Nagahydras cast spells as 15th-level sorcerers, and can also cast spells from the cleric list and from the Destruction and Scalykind domains. A nagahydra can cast one spell per round per head, but all spells come from the common pool of spells available.


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## Shade (Sep 4, 2009)

Good point.  We could offer variety, noting different domains for different alignments.

I just remembered to look at the nagahydra, and we might be treading a bit too closely on its turf:

"A nagahydra is a serpentine monster with five heads, each of which can unleash a devastating barrage of spells."

Huge, 18 HD, Str 30, Dex 14, Con 20, Int 16, Wis 19, Cha 21

Nagahydras cast spells as 15th-level sorcerers, and can also cast spells from the cleric list and from the Destruction and Scalykind domains. A nagahydra can cast one spell per round per head, but all spells come from the common pool of spells available.


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## freyar (Sep 5, 2009)

Hmm.  Where's that from?

But you're right.  They almost seem like a conversion of master nagas as a monster.  Some way we can spice this up?  Or maybe we should think about that template idea.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 5, 2009)

Right! I thought there was a multi-headed naga somewhere.


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## Shade (Sep 8, 2009)

freyar said:


> But you're right.  They almost seem like a conversion of master nagas as a monster.  Some way we can spice this up?  Or maybe we should think about that template idea.




I'm thinking we should fall back on the template concept, making each master naga an exemplar of its subtype.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 8, 2009)

Yeah, okay, I can see that... but each naga's not that different from each other. All of the master nagas are going to come out pretty much the same... unless we add a Su or Ex ability or two to each kind of naga's master template, like with the templates in Advanced Bestiary. So a spirit naga might have "carrion breath" that nauseates and does some sort of poison and become tomb-tainted, dark nagas might gain concealment in any light conditions other than full daylight and something thematically tied to their mind-reading, etc.


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## Shade (Sep 8, 2009)

That's an excellent idea!


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## freyar (Sep 8, 2009)

Agreed!  

I'm thinking that this template might be a kind that adds HD to the critter.  Or do you think those are too messy?


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## Shade (Sep 8, 2009)

Hmmm...at the risk of falling into circular logic...maybe, since there are only a handful of core nagas (and only a few non-core), it would be simpler to just pick a HD, make the master naga, and note the differing abilities by type?   The unique abilities Demiurge suggested are probably enough to differentiate them from nagahydras.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 9, 2009)

That might get a bit complicated, since there are abilities that not all nagas have already (spirit nagas have charming gaze, dark nagas have detect thoughts, guardian nagas spit their venom). I like the idea of it being a template, and I think it should add HD.


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## freyar (Sep 9, 2009)

That sounds like a plan.  And tabulate the extra special abilities depending on type of naga, kind of like a half-dragon?


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 9, 2009)

Exactly.


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## Shade (Sep 9, 2009)

I'm convinced.  

Add 10 HD?


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 9, 2009)

10 HD sounds good. Should we add caster levels, or give all master nagas a flat caster level?


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## Shade (Sep 9, 2009)

I like the adding caster level option, as it preserves the differences between the subspecies.  Maybe add 5 to the caster level (half the HD increase)?


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## freyar (Sep 9, 2009)

Agreed to all that.  Makes them sufficiently more powerful, but it's not ridiculous.


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## Shade (Sep 9, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 10, 2009)

How shall we handle the ability scores? Increased size modifiers, +2 to Int and Wis, +4/+6 to Cha? Or should we increase the other mental ability scores at the same rate as Cha? And what do we do with the increased ability points for bonus HD? I'm sort of tempted to stuff the two of them into Dex, so there's no Dex penalty for increasing in size.


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## freyar (Sep 10, 2009)

I say all mental scores +6.  They have 7 heads, after all!

Should they have all-around vision, since they 7 heads?  

Did I mention they have 7 heads?  And 9 buttocks?



Also, I'm never sure about increased abilities for HD gained through templates, etc.  For example, do you increase abilities and how many times?  Say the naga starts with 7 HD; does it get 2 ability increases or 3 (at 8, 12, and 16HD)?  Maybe we should just remind the DM and let them decide.


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## Shade (Sep 10, 2009)

Surprisingly, nagahydras (and regular ol' hydras) lack all-around vison.  Instead, they get "a +2 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks, thanks to its multiple heads."

For the ability scores, like so?

Abilities: A master naga's Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution are all adjusted according to the Changes to Statistics by Size Table as detailed in the Monster Manual.  (+8 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con for a Large base naga, and +16Str, -4 Dex, +8 Con for a Medium base naga).  A master naga's Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma each increase by +6.   Note that a master naga gains ability score increases as usual for its increased Hit Dice.  Master nagas often put these ability score increases into Dexterity, to offset the size penalty.


Alternately, since all official nagas are Large or larger, we could give them a +2 racial bonus to Dex to offset the usual size adjustment.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 11, 2009)

Your first suggestion looked sound. And there are a few Medium nagas lurking about (like the bright nagas from Miniatures Handbook, poor things)


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## freyar (Sep 11, 2009)

I like this as written, also.  Rather than have them all go Huge, we could have them just increase one size category as another alternative.

We can do the +2 bonus to Spot, then.  Or we could go with all-around vision if we really want to distinguish these.


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## Shade (Sep 11, 2009)

Updated.

I'm not sure what do with the additional buttocks, freyar.  



> This last snake can regenerate 5 points per melee round




Fast healing 5?

Should we note in special attacks that the save DC for the naga's poison increases due to the additional Hit Dice and greater Con score?  Maybe throw a racial bonus on top of it since they are special?


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 11, 2009)

Fast healing 5 is appropriate, and I like the suggestion of a racial +2 to poison DCs.

Perhaps we give them a bit of DR? DR 5/choose an opposing alignment?


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## Shade (Sep 11, 2009)

Good idea.  Should we note that fast healing and DR stack with existing DR?   The brine naga, for example, has damage reduction 10/good, while the banelar has fast healing 2.


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## freyar (Sep 11, 2009)

All good ideas!  Yes, let's let fast healing and DR stack.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 11, 2009)

Agreed.


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## Shade (Sep 14, 2009)

Updated.

Did we want to make the gems in their hood count as arcane/divine focus for spellcasting?


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## freyar (Sep 14, 2009)

That sounds right.  Perhaps they also substitute for all material components w/o a cost (effectively giving them eschew materials as a bonus feat as long as they have the gems)?


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 14, 2009)

I believe most nagas already have Eschew Materials as a bonus feat, but giving it to these guys explicitly is a good idea. I don't like all of the material components being carried in the hood as the rationale, though. Their hoods are studded with gems, not a bunch of random garbage and live spiders and bat dung. They're classy.

Giving our sample a couple of spells that have gems as material components/foci would be a good idea. Stoneskin, for example.


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## Shade (Sep 14, 2009)

Updated.

Ready to work on the subspecies unique abilities?


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 15, 2009)

Sure! Should we just do the abilities for the four core nagas and suggest that DMs invent their own abilities for other naga species along the same lines?


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 15, 2009)

Perhaps for spirit nagas, tomb-tainted and:

Carrion Breath (Su): A spirit master naga can, once every 1d4 rounds, breathe a 30 foot cone of toxic gas. All creatures caught within the cone must make a successful Fortitude save or take 1d4 points of Constitution damage and be sickened for 1 minute. The save DC is Constitution based.


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## Shade (Sep 15, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Sure! Should we just do the abilities for the four core nagas and suggest that DMs invent their own abilities for other naga species along the same lines?




Yeah, I think that's reasonable.



demiurge1138 said:


> Perhaps for spirit nagas, tomb-tainted and:
> 
> Carrion Breath (Su): A spirit master naga can, once every 1d4 rounds, breathe a 30 foot cone of toxic gas. All creatures caught within the cone must make a successful Fortitude save or take 1d4 points of Constitution damage and be sickened for 1 minute. The save DC is Constitution based.




Looks great!

For the water naga, maybe spines like a howler?

For the dark naga, something like this?

Implant Thoughts (Su):  Once every 1d4 rounds, a dark master naga may attempt to implant a thought into a single creature's mind within 60 feet.  This functions as the modify memory spell, except only a new memory may be implanted.  A successful Will save negates this effect.  This is a mind-affecting, compulsion effect.  The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## freyar (Sep 15, 2009)

Those look good as long as we think they're all roughly equivalent.  

As for Eschew Materials, I didn't mean that they carried components around but that the gem spell foci substitute also as components.  But no matter.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 15, 2009)

Nice implant thoughts! I think that each of them should get a SA and a SQ. So what should a dark naga's SQ be?


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## Shade (Sep 15, 2009)

Hmmm....dark nagas are immune to "mind reading" and gain a bonus on saves vs. charm effects, so maybe upgrade the master to full immunity to mind-affecting spells and abilities?

Alternatively, they could have a "backlash" quality for anyone who attempts to read their mind or fails to charm them.


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## freyar (Sep 15, 2009)

I like the backlash idea, and I feel like there are some precedents, right.  Or we could base it off Hostile Mind from the psionic section.

Water nagas also need an SA, but I'm blanking on a good idea.


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## Shade (Sep 15, 2009)

Here's one "backlash" example...

Alien Mind (Su): While a minion of chaos is not immune to mental attacks, anyone targeting it with a mind-affecting or telepathic effect makes direct contact with its utterly alien mind. The attacker must make a DC 34 Will save or take 1d4+1 points of Wisdom damage. An attacker is subject to Wisdom damage on every attempt, whether the attack is successful or not. The save DC is Charisma-based.

For the water naga, I could see spines for the SA.  For the SQ, something based on this?



> Water nagas prefer to stay mostly concealed in a body of water while they launch a spell attack.




They currently have no special bonuses for doing so, and in fact lack the Hide skill entirely!


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## GrayLinnorm (Sep 16, 2009)

How about giving them effective greater invisibility as long as they're completely submerged?

For a special attack, they could animate and control water.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 16, 2009)

I like the spines for the SA and concealment when in water for the SQ.


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## freyar (Sep 16, 2009)

Spines and maybe total concealment in water work for me too.

Adapting Alien Mind for the dark naga works, too.


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## Shade (Sep 17, 2009)

Summarizing...

Unique Attacks: A master naga gains additional special attacks, base on its type.

Carrion Breath (Su): A spirit master naga can, once every 1d4 rounds, breathe a 30 foot cone of toxic gas. All creatures caught within the cone must make a successful Fortitude save or take 1d4 points of Constitution damage and be sickened for 1 minute. The save DC is Constitution based. 

Implant Thoughts (Su): Once every 1d4 rounds, a dark master naga may attempt to implant a thought into a single creature's mind within 60 feet. This functions as the modify memory spell, except only a new memory may be implanted. A successful Will save negates this effect. This is a mind-affecting, compulsion effect. The save DC is Charisma-based. 

Spines (Ex): A master water naga's fiery red and orange spines lengthen and harden. While biting, the creature thrashes about, striking with 1d4 of them. Treat these spines as a secondary melee attack that deals 1d6 points of damage plus 1/2 the naga's Strength modifier. An opponent hit by a master water naga's spines attack must succeed on a Reflex save or have the quill break off in his or her flesh. Lodged spines impose a –1 penalty on attacks, saves, and checks per spine. The save DC is Dexterity-based. A spine can be removed safely with a DC 20 Heal check; otherwise, removing a spine deals an extra 1d6 points of damage.

Unique Defenses: A master naga gains additional special qualities, base on its type.

Invisible in Water (Su): A master water naga is effectively invisibile (as if under the effects of a greater invisibility spell) as long as it remains completely submerged.

Retaliatory Mind (Su): While a master dark naga is not immune to mental attacks, anyone targeting it with a mind-affecting or telepathic effect must succeed on a Will save or take 1d4+1 points of Wisdom damage. An attacker is subject to Wisdom damage on every attempt, whether the attack is successful or not. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Tomb-Tainted (Ex): Although an aberration, a master spirit naga is harmed by positive energy and healed by negative energy. It is treated as undead for purposes of spells and effects that treat undead differently (such as searing light or holy water). A master spirit naga may be turned as if it were an undead creature.



Do those look OK?

We'll still need something for the guardian naga.

"Wise and good, guardian nagas often protect sacred places or maintain a lookout against evil deeds."

Perhaps a constant detect evil vision?  Or maybe it gains blindsight, but only usable against evil creatures and objects?

"A guardian naga tends to raise its crest when it becomes angry."

Maybe a fear/intimidation/awe effect when it raises its crest?


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 17, 2009)

I like evil-only blindsight, but the crest of awe doesn't strike me quite right. Perhaps some sort of light-based gaze attack or breath weapon?


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## Shade (Sep 18, 2009)

That works for me.  Preferences for gaze vs. breath weapon?


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## freyar (Sep 18, 2009)

Breath weapon.  Untyped damage but treated as if it has the light descriptor?  Everything looks good so far.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 18, 2009)

I like freyar's breath weapon suggestion.


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## Shade (Sep 18, 2009)

Line or cone, and what dimensions?


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 19, 2009)

60 foot line?


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## freyar (Sep 19, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> 60 foot line?



Sounds good.


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## Shade (Sep 21, 2009)

Do these look OK?

Vilesight (Su):  A master guardian naga gains vilesight to a range of 60 feet.  This functions as blindsight, but it only senses evil creatures and objects with at least a faint evil aura (see the detect evil spell description).

Breath Weapon (Su):  A master guardian naga can breathe a 60 foot line of light once every 1d4 rounds.  This deals xdx points of damage, and is treated as having the light descriptor.  A successful saving throw halves the damage.  The save DC is Constitution-based.


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## freyar (Sep 21, 2009)

Sure!  10d6?


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 21, 2009)

10d6 sounds reasonable.


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## Shade (Sep 21, 2009)

Updated.

Shall we work up a couple of samples to help figure out the CR/LA adjustments?


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## freyar (Sep 22, 2009)

Sure.  Picking one from a hat, maybe a dark naga?


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## Shade (Sep 22, 2009)

*Master Dark Naga*
Huge Aberration
Hit Dice: 19d8+76 (161 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 16 (–2 size, +2 Dex, +6 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +14/+28
Attack: Sting +18 melee (2d6+6 plus poison)
Full Attack: Sting +18 melee (2d6+6 plus poison) and 7 bites +13 melee (1d6+3)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Implant thoughts, poison, spells
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 5/good, darkvision 60 ft., detect thoughts, fast healing 5, guarded thoughts, immunity to poison, resistance to charm, retaliatory mind
Saves: Fort +10, Ref +10, Will +16
Abilities: Str 22, Dex 15, Con 18, Int 22, Wis 21, Cha 23
Skills: Bluff +12, Concentration +15, Diplomacy +10, Disguise +8 (+10 acting), Intimidate +8, Listen +16, Sense Motive +11, Spellcraft +15, Spot +16, plus 80 more ranks
Feats: Alertness, Combat Casting, Dodge, Eschew Materials (B), Lightning Reflexes, 3 more
Environment: Temperate hills
Organization: Solitary or nest (2–4)
Challenge Rating: 8+
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Usually lawful evil
Advancement: 20–27 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: —

_This creature has a long, snakelike scaled body.  Its seven heads have more or less human faces, each shrouded in a gem-encrusted cowl._

Master dark nagas speak Common and Infernal.

Combat
Dark nagas prefer to fight from an elevated position where they get a good view of the battlefield while also staying out of reach.

Detect Thoughts (Su): A dark naga can continuously use detect thoughts as the spell (caster level 14th; Will DC 25 negates). This ability is always active. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Guarded Thoughts (Ex): Dark nagas are immune to any form of mind reading.

Implant Thoughts (Su): Once every 1d4 rounds, a master dark naga may attempt to implant a thought into a single creature's mind within 60 feet. This functions as the modify memory spell, except only a new memory may be implanted. A successful DC 25 Will save negates this effect. This is a mind-affecting, compulsion effect. The save DC is Charisma-based. 

Improved Venom (Ex): A master naga gains a +2 racial bonus on the save DC of its poison ability (if any).

Poison (Ex): Injury, Fortitude DC 25 or lapse into a nightmare-haunted sleep for 2d4 minutes. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Resistance to Charm: Dark nagas have a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against all charm effects (not included in the statistics block).

Retaliatory Mind (Su): While a master dark naga is not immune to mental attacks, anyone targeting it with a mind-affecting or telepathic effect must succeed on a DC 25 Will save or take 1d4+1 points of Wisdom damage. An attacker is subject to Wisdom damage on every attempt, whether the attack is successful or not. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Spells: Dark nagas cast spells as 12th-level sorcerers.

Typical Sorcerer Spells Known (6/8/8/7/7/6/4; save DC 16 + spell level): 
0—daze, detect magic, light, mage hand, open/close, ray of frost, read magic, 2 more; 
1st—expeditious retreat, magic missile, ray of enfeeblement, shield, silent image; 
2nd—cat’s grace, invisibility, scorching ray, 2 more; 
3rd—displacement, lightning bolt, 2 more;
4th—3 more;
5th—2 more;
6th—1 more.

Skills: Master nagas have a +2 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks, thanks to their multiple heads.


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## freyar (Sep 22, 2009)

0 - acid splash, touch of fatigue
1 - ()
2 - summon swarm, web
3 - protection from energy, vampiric touch
...
How are those?


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## Shade (Sep 22, 2009)

Looking good.

As an aside, should we boost treasure to double, or even triple, standard?

Most nagas have an organization of "solitary or nest".  Do we want to stick with base naga org, or create a "super nest" of the master naga and a number of its standard counterparts?  Maybe 7 to correspond with each of its heads?


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 22, 2009)

Double standard treasure.

4th--confusion, enervation, stoneskin
5th--cone of cold, magic jar
6th--mislead

I tried to include a few spells with gem stones material components


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## Shade (Sep 22, 2009)

Good call!

Updated.


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## freyar (Sep 23, 2009)

Looks nice.  I like the idea of a "super nest" with 7 subservient nagas of the same type.


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## Shade (Sep 23, 2009)

What kind of CR adjustment do you think we're looking at?

A nagahydra is CR 18, has 18 HD, a similar number of attacks (but employs 1d12 Con damage poison with each bite, which makes a big difference), fast healing 15, and casts as a 15th-level sorcerer.

Compare to our fella, which has 19 HD, much less poison, caster level 12th, fast healing 5, damage reduction 5/good, and the subspecies-specific powers.

Also, a very powerful ability of the nagahydra we might want to borrow here:

"A nagahydra can cast one spell per round per head, but all spells come from the common pool of spells available."


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 23, 2009)

I do like the multiple head casting. That would grant a pretty serious CR boost. Perhaps CR +6? That gives us a CR 14 dark master naga, which seems pretty appropriate. Maybe +7 if we give it the multiple head casting.


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## Shade (Sep 23, 2009)

Updated.

Do we need another sample?


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## freyar (Sep 24, 2009)

That all sounds fair.  I'd say do a sample nagahydra, but that's not core.   I don't know that we need another sample, but that doesn't mean I'd object too strenuously to one.


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## Shade (Sep 28, 2009)

Applying that to a nagahydra is just plain cruel.  

That reminds me, though, that we need to add an underbar explaining what to do with non-core master nagas.


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## freyar (Sep 29, 2009)

Would a nagahydra just get 2 extra heads, or would it have 7 heads for each head? 

The underbar is a good idea.  Phrase it along the lines of noncore half-dragons, I guess.


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## Shade (Sep 29, 2009)

By the guidelines of the template, I don't believe it could be added to a nagahydra, as it is not actually a "naga" in the truest sense.  But I'd imagine you could go either way as a DM.  

Here's a stab at the underbar...

*Master Nagas from Other Sources*
The master naga template lists unique attacks and defenses for the core nagas found in the SRD.  If you are using nagas from other sources, simply create a single unique attack and unique defense thematically approrpriate for your naga.

For example, a master iridescent naga (_Serpent Kingdoms_) might gain a unique attack that function similar to a prismatic spray, and a unique defense that reflects spells back at their enemies.  A mighty ha-naga (_Epic Level Handbook_) might gain a dominating gaze as a unique attack, and perhaps a displacement unique defense similar to a displacer beast.

Although it is a bit of a stretch, a truly enterprising (or sadistic) DM might apply the template to a nagahydra (_Serpent Kingdoms_).  In this case, the nagahydra would gain an additional 7 heads, and might gain the breath weapon of a pyrohydra or cryhoydra as its unique attack, and the associated Cold or Fire subtype as its unique defense.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 29, 2009)

That sidebar looks good! The nagahydra mention is pretty funny. Turning it into a pyro or cyro hydra! That's not a bad idea.


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## Shade (Sep 29, 2009)

Updated.

All done?


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 30, 2009)

I suspect we're done here.


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## freyar (Oct 1, 2009)

Seems good.


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## Shade (Oct 28, 2009)

*Maramet, the Undead King*

Armor class: 2
Hit Dice: 10
Hit Points: 78
Move: 120' (40')
Attacks: 1
Damage: 3-10 sword*
No. Appearing: 1
Save As: F10*
Morale: 12
Alignment: N (C)
XP Value: 2,000

Similar to a zombie, but with some of the characteristics of a revenant, this entity is the undead remains of Vestland’s last High King, Maramet. In this scenario his body has been animated by the high priest of Gyl Erid, Axemines, and he functions as a guardian of the Eridian crypt at the island castle.
In melee Maramet will attack as a fighter, level 10. His sword inflicts 3-10 points of damage but victims must save vs. poison or contract lethal blood-poisoning from the rusted blade.

As an undead entity the king cannot be turned by a cleric of less than 10 experience levels, and only then as a revenant. If he is turned, Maramet will get a save vs. spell. If he saves, as a 10th-level fighter, he will be immune to the turning command.

Once slain, the entity will not rise again. The after-death slaying of this horror liberates the spirit of the sorrowful King.

Note: In this scenario Maramet will call upon a number of other undead entities (spectres and wraiths) to assist him with his guardianship of the crypt.

Originally appeared in X13 - Crown of Ancient Glory (1987).


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## freyar (Oct 29, 2009)

Well, first question, should we make him a unique critter or a monster?  In the second case, I'd go for a template, I think.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 29, 2009)

Unique creature. Fighter bonus feats, disease on the sword attack, positive energy resistance and improved turn resistance.


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## freyar (Oct 29, 2009)

I can go with all that, but I think I'm missing the positive energy resistance in the original text.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 29, 2009)

He's super-resistant to turning. I think positive energy resistance is a good way to incorporate all of those abilities.


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## Shade (Oct 29, 2009)

Stick with 10 HD?  Assume he was a 10th-level fighter in life for purposes of feats?

Assuming that, Str 20, Dex 16, Con -, Int 12, Wis 13, Cha 17?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 30, 2009)

10 HD is a little... underwhelming for a unique undead. Especially since 10th level was more difficult to attain in 1e.


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## Shade (Oct 30, 2009)

I'm glad you see it that way.  

18th level fighter?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 31, 2009)

Sure!


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## freyar (Oct 31, 2009)

18th level fighter, 18HD, and let's bump those abilities.  Str 24, Dex 18, Con -, Int 12, Wis 13, Cha 17?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 31, 2009)

Switch Int and Wis. Lets him take the Combat Expertise chain.


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## freyar (Nov 1, 2009)

Good point, done!  Str 24, Dex 18, Con -, Int 13, Wis 12, Cha 17.


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## Shade (Nov 2, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

Suggested writeups of the positive energy resistance and improved turn resistance abilities?

Magic longsword?  In addition to spreading disease, should we have it function as a rusting grasp if used to sunder?


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## freyar (Nov 2, 2009)

Can we just do resistance X positive energy?  As for improved turning resistance, I'm not sure if I favor just big turning resistance, immunity to turning, or something unique.

Agreed to those suggestions on the sword.  Unique magic item or an inherent property of Maramet?


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 3, 2009)

Inherent property of Maramet, I think, and I like the suggestion. We can do resistance positive energy 10 or 20 in addition to mad turn resistance.


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## freyar (Nov 3, 2009)

How about resistance 15?  +6 turn resistance?  Seems like a decent approximation of the original ability.


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## Shade (Nov 3, 2009)

Sounds good.

Modifying from the rust monster...

Rustblade (Su): Any weapon wielded by Maramet takes on a rusted appearance.  If Maramet makes a successful touch attack with this weapon aganist a metal object, it causes the target metal to corrode, falling to pieces and becoming useless immediately. This can destroy up to a 10-foot cube of metal instantly. Magic armor and weapons, and other magic items made of metal, must succeed on a DC x Reflex save or be dissolved. The save DC is Charisma-based and includes a +4 racial bonus.


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## freyar (Nov 5, 2009)

Very frightening!  I like it!


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 6, 2009)

That looks pretty good.


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## Shade (Nov 9, 2009)

Updated.

Suggestions for the "lethal blood poisoning" disease?

Suggested enhancements and bonus for the longsword?


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## freyar (Nov 9, 2009)

I don't think red ache gets enough press.  We can boost the DC as appropriate for him and could say that reducing Str to 0 kills in this case (or maybe that's getting too far from the source material).

+2 shocking burst?


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## Shade (Nov 10, 2009)

Red ache works for me, with the DC Cha-based on Maramet.

The sword properties work fine.

Shall we give him armor and/or shield?


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## freyar (Nov 11, 2009)

Maybe a magic breastplate and some kind of shield, sure.  How many +s do we want to spend on those?


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## Shade (Nov 11, 2009)

Probably a total of +6 between the two.  Armor and shield enhancements are cheap.


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## freyar (Nov 11, 2009)

+1 spell resistance (13) breastplate, +2 blinding light steel shield?


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## Shade (Nov 11, 2009)

Interesting choices!

Updated.

Skills: 5 at 21 ranks (-3 armor check penalty)

Feats: 7 plus 10 fighter bonus feats


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## freyar (Nov 11, 2009)

Gives him a little better defense and another option.  Though perhaps the SR and blinding DC aren't potent enough.  You think they're worth it?


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## Shade (Nov 11, 2009)

The SR might be a bit weak for its probable CR; some of the energy resistance properties might be more beneficial.

Although the save DC is negligible on the blinding, there's always the 5% chance of rolling a 1.   An absorbing shield could be quite fun.


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## freyar (Nov 11, 2009)

The problem is that energy resistance costs a lot more than the SR (more than twice as much!) if we're counting gp.  Rather than blinding, let's go with +1 animated for the shield.  For the armor, we could go +1 (your favorite energy here) resistance if the price is right.

You know, this pricing has always bothered me.  By the time you can afford some of these properties (like SR 13), it's mostly useless.


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## Shade (Nov 11, 2009)

Assuming he ends up around CR 19 (that's only +1 over his fighter levels), he'd have 170,000 gp in NPC wealth.

+2 shocking burst longsword costs 32,315.  That leaves 137,685 gp to spend on armor and shield.

The absorbing shield is 50,170 gp.  That would leave 87,515 for armor.  A +1 breastplate is only 1,350 gp, so we'd still have 86,165 for additional properties.  That could be greater energy resistance of one type plus standard of a second type, or improved energy resistance of two types.

That's all assuming I didn't misinterpret the rules or mess up my math.


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 12, 2009)

Or we could give him more flat magical plusses on that armor, a ring of protection, an amulet of natural armor, etc. An 18th level fighter with his AC in the mid-20s is going to get destroyed immediately in melee combat.


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## freyar (Nov 12, 2009)

Ok, we've got plenty of room then.  These higher CR NPC-type monsters always give me trouble.  

I'd missed the absorbing shield in the SRD, that's a great idea!

How about +5 improved X resistance breastplate?


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## Shade (Nov 13, 2009)

Electricity resistance to tie it in with his shocking burst longsword?


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## freyar (Nov 13, 2009)

Sure thing!


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## Shade (Nov 16, 2009)

Updated.

Skills: 5 at 21 ranks (-3 armor check penalty)

Feats: 7 plus 10 fighter bonus feats


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## freyar (Nov 17, 2009)

Climb, Intimidate, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot?


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 17, 2009)

Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack

Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved TWF, Improved Shield Bash

Improved Initiative, Improved Critical (longsword)

Power Attack, Cleave, Improved Sunder

Lightning Reflexes

Weapon Focus (longsword), Weapon Specialization (longsword), Greater Weapon Focus (longsword)

I'd be okay dropping either Cleave or Lightning Reflexes (but I'd prefer Cleave) for Greater Weapon Spec.

Too bad we can't give it PHB 2 feats like Melee Weapon Mastery and Weapon Supremacy...


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## Shade (Nov 17, 2009)

I love it!  Shall we swap out the absorbing shield for a _+5 bashing shield_ to really maximize the benefit of those feats?


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## freyar (Nov 17, 2009)

That might be a good idea!


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 18, 2009)

I like the bashing shield idea.


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## Shade (Nov 18, 2009)

Updated.

Should rustblade apply to shield bash attacks?

Environment: Underground?

Organization: Solitary or x (Maramet plus xdx spectres and xdx wraiths)

Challenge Rating: 20?  He's CR 18 from fighter levels, and seems about on par with having the vampire template applied (+2 CR).

Maramet is 6 feet tall and weighs x pounds. 

Maramet speaks Common and x.


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## freyar (Nov 18, 2009)

Well, I guess the shield counts as a weapon for that purpose, so probably yes.

Yes.

honor guard?  2d6 spectres and 1d4 dread wraiths?


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 19, 2009)

Agreed to the rustblade carrying over to the shield bash, and to the honor guard of spectres and dread wraiths.


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## Shade (Nov 19, 2009)

Updated.

I realized I'd forgotten the disease.  Does that look OK?

Challenge Rating: 20? He's CR 18 from fighter levels, and seems about on par with having the vampire template applied (+2 CR).

Maramet is 6 feet tall and weighs 175 pounds?

Maramet speaks Common and Draconic?


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## freyar (Nov 19, 2009)

Those suggestions work for me.  Agreed, and then I think he's done.


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## Shade (Nov 19, 2009)

Updated.


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 25, 2009)

The hit points are still bugging me. Although he's got a great AC, his hit points are ridiculously low for a CR 20. Give him unholy toughness, and he'll get better, but it'll still be something of a glass cannon.


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## freyar (Nov 25, 2009)

Give him unholy toughness and go for CR 18 or 19?  We can just go with the theory that PC classes are over-CR-ed in core 3.5.


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## Shade (Nov 25, 2009)

Rather than mess with the (even flawed) CR system, let's just beef him up enough to warrant his CR.

In addition to unholy toughness, how about giving him damage reduction 15/bludgeoning and magic like a lich or death knight, immunity to cold like those two, spell resistance 13 + 1 per character level like a sketal warrior, and vampire bonus feats (Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Initiative, and Lightning Reflexes)?


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 25, 2009)

I like damage reduction and SR, but I'm not sure about bonus feats. Specifically, I'm not sure about those bonus feats. He's already got a few of those, which reflect the feats he had while alive.


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## Shade (Nov 25, 2009)

Do you think the DR and SR is sufficient to earn his CR?


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## freyar (Nov 25, 2009)

Maybe with the energy immunities you mentioned.  We could give him something like Knock Down as a bonus feat.


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 26, 2009)

That sounds pretty good.


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## freyar (Nov 26, 2009)

Add DR, SR, immunity to cold, and Knock Down and Stand Still as bonus feats?  Think that gets the CR up there?


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 29, 2009)

I suspect so.


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## Shade (Nov 30, 2009)

Perfect.  Updated.

I think he looks good.


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## freyar (Nov 30, 2009)

Yeah, he's done!


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 1, 2009)

Agreed.


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## Shade (Mar 26, 2010)

*Magen*

_Hypnos_
Armor Class: 7
Hit Dice: 2*
Move: 120’ (40’)
Attacks: 1
Damage: Charm
No. Appearing: l (0)
Save As: Magic-User 2
Morale: 12
Treasure Type: U
Alignment: Neutral

_Demos_
Armor Class: 7 or armor type
Hit Dice: 3+2
Move: 120’(40’)
Attacks: 1 weapon
Damage: 1-8 or  by weapon
No. Appearing: l-10
Save As: Fighter 4
Morale: 12
Treasure Type: C
Alignment: Neutral

_Caldron_
Armor Class: 5
Hit Dice: 4
Move: 120’(40’)
Attacks: 1 special
Damage: 1-10
No. Appearing: l-4 (0)
Save As: Fighter 4
Morale: 12
Treasure Type: V
Alignment: Neutral

_Galvan_
Armor Class: 3
Hit Dice: 5
Move: 120’(40’)
Attacks: 1 or lightning bolt
Damage: by weapon or 3-18
No. Appearing: l-3 (0)
Save As: Fighter 5
Morale: 12
Treasure Type: C
Alignment: Neutral

Magen (“Gens Magica” or “magical people”) are beings created with complex conjurations and strict alchemical formulae by high level magic-users. They will follow the commands of their creator to the death. Though magen resemble perfectly formed humans, they are not actually living beings. They exist purely through magic, and do not need air, water, food or sleep. They do not age. When killed, their physical bodies dissolve in a burst of flame and smoke. There are four basic types of magen given here, though the DM may wish to design more. There are no outwardly visible differences in the four types until they reveal their special powers.

_Hypnos_. Hypnos magen are telepathic and have been given a permanent charm person spell by their creator. They can attempt to charm one victim per round. If the victim does not save vs. Spells he or she will obey the hypnos magen’s telepathic commands. The victim will not obey suicidal commands. Once an individual has successfully saved he or she is immune to the charm power of that particular magen.

_Demos_. Demos magen have no special powers and fight with weapons. If they wear armor, they will have the armor class of that armor; otherwise, their armor class is 7.

_Caldron_. Caldron magen have the ability to stretch their arms and legs up to 20’. They attempt to wrap their limbs around a victim and, if successful, secrete an acid which does 1-10 points of damage. The victim will continue to take damage each round unless freed.

_Galvan_. Galvan magen have the ability to store static electricity which they discharge as lightning bolts doing 3-18 points of damage. The lightning bolt forms a line 60’ long by 5’ wide. A successful save vs. Dragon Breath reduces damage by half. Galvan magen can discharge up to three lightning bolts per day. They will also use weapons. 

The procedure for creating a magen varies according to the type desired, as the special properties of some magen require extra work on the part of the magic-user. In general, a large expenditure of time and money (for the costly and/or magical ingredients) is necessary to create even one or two magen. Also many high-level spells, scrolls and wishes must be used during the preparations. Even so, there is always a good chance that the incantations will fail.

Originally appeared in X2 - Castle Amber (1981).

*Magen, Demos*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Nil
INTELLIGENCE: Average (9)
TREASURE: C
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 2d6
ARMOR CLASS: 7 or armor type
MOVEMENT: 12
HIT DICE: 3+2
THAC0: 17
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: By weapon
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Spell immunities
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 30%
SIZE: M (6’ tall)
MORALE: Fearless (20)
XP VALUE: 120

*Magen, Caldron*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Nil
INTELLIGENCE: Average (9)
TREASURE: V
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1d4
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVEMENT: 12
HIT DICE: 4
THAC0: 17
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: By weapon
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Entanglement, acid
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Spell immunities
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 40%
SIZE: M (6’ tall)
MORALE: Fearless (20)
XP VALUE: 175

*Magen, Galvan*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Nil
INTELLIGENCE: Average (9)
TREASURE: C
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1d3
ARMOR CLASS: 3
MOVEMENT: 12
HIT DICE: 5
THAC0: 15
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: By weapon
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Lightning bolt
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Spell immunities
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 50%
SIZE: M (6’ tall)
MORALE: Fearless (20)
XP VALUE: 420

*Magen, Hypnos*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Nil
INTELLIGENCE: Average (9)
TREASURE: U
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVEMENT: 12
HIT DICE: 2
THAC0: 19
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: By weapon
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Charm
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Spell immunities
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 20%
SIZE: M (6’ tall)
MORALE: Fearless (20)
XP VALUE: 175

Magen (“MAY jens,” originally gens magica,  or “magical people”) are constructs created by wizards of at least 12th levels by means of complex conjurations and strict alchemical formulas. The procedure for creating a magen varies depending on its type; some magens require extra work.  In general, a wizard must anticipate a large expenditure of time and money.

Wizards construct magens out of a magically charged gelatin using shaped molds.  Magens usually resemble perfectly formed humans, though some vain wizards fashion the magen faces to mirror their own.  Wizards never shape them to resemble animals or monsters, but sometimes give them bestial features.  The creatures typically look grayish white, unless they are painted or otherwise decorated.  Their smooth bodies can gain texture or the semblance of hair through the work of a skilled artisan.  Magens feel warm to touch, with a consistency similar to that of human flesh.  While these creatures might look alive, sages do not consider them living beings; they do not sleep or eat, nor do they have emotions or free will.

When created, a magen automatically knows how to speak one language its creator knows and has chosen for it.  It can learn one or two other languages later, if taught.

A magen follows its creator’s commands without question, even to the death; it makes an ideal guard.  Unlike most other constructs, these creatures can follow detailed commands and learn complex procedures to the same extent as a human of average intelligence. Magens even can be instructed in making simple decisions, if given criteria by which to judge events.

While the magens here represent all known types, experimentation continues—powerful wizards might create new types at any time.

Combat:  A magen can be taught one or more weapons and employ them most frequently in attacks.  Caldrons, galvans, and hypnos also have special attack forms.

Demos magens use armor and weapons to serve their masters.  Their creators give them the skill to use one type of melee weapon and one type of missile weapon; they can be taught more types later.  If they wear armor, they enjoy the benefit of the appropriate Armor Class, provided it exceeds their natural AC 7.  No other type of magen uses armor.

Caldrons have the ability to stretch their arms and legs up to 20 feet. They do not attack with their legs, but can stretch them to reach otherwise inaccessible places.  Caldrons attempt to wrap their arms around victims and can use both arms in the same round, attacking one or two opponents.  After a successful attack roll, the caldron holds the victim and secretes a powerful acid that causes 1d10 points of damage per round until the victim is freed.  Breaking free requires a successful open doors roll or the death of the caldron.  Note that the acid can destroy a victim’s items unless saving throws are made for them.

Galvans have the ability to store static electricity, which they discharge as lightning bolts 60 feet long and 5 feet wide. Those in the area of effect suffer 3d6 points of damage, though a successful saving throw vs. breath weapon halves the damage. Galvans can discharge up to three bolts a day. 

Hypnos, physically the weakest magen, possess a subtle power that makes them very useful, especially considering how hard it is to tell magen types apart.  Hypnos can  attempt to use charm person once per round; a victim who fails a saving throw vs. spells believes the hypnos to be a valued friend.  One who makes a successful saving throw against the enchantment remains forever immune to the charm power of that particular magen.  Once per round, the hypnos can contact a single charmed victim telepathically and use a suggestion spell; a target may attempt a saving throw vs. spell to avoid following the suggestion, but if the saving throw fails, the victim follows any reasonable course of action the magen suggests.  The hypnos bases its suggestions only on instructions from its creator.

All magen are immune to charm and fear spells, as well as to most other mind-affecting spells that affect emotions.  The creaturs can fall victim to hold and sleep spells.

When a magen reaches 0 hit points, its body dissolves suddenly in an acrid burst of multicolored flame and smoke.  One round later, no traces of the creature remain—even the odor has faded.  It seems almost as if such a being was never there at all.

Should a magen’s creator die, the construct almost always goes mad, launching itself on a rampage of senseless destruction until it is destroyed.

Habitat/Society: Magens have no society of their own. However, they are reasonably intelligent and can speak; some lonely wizards teach them to respond to conversation and to act in a polite manner, too. Since they have no will of their own, magens never truly become part of society, except perhaps as slaves. While the constructs have no emotions, they can be taught to emulate them in certain instances. 

Demos are the most common type of magen. Their lack of special powers makes them good choices as aides in polite company; wizards generally use only this type as domestic servants and consider them excellent bodveuards as well.

One hardly ever sees caldrons used as messengers or domestic help, because of their slight acidic smell and their unsetthg ability to stesrch their limbs.

Ecology: The ageless magens exist purely through magic and do nor need air, water, food, or sleep. As construcrs that consume nothing, magens have Little impact on their surroundings, except as potentially destructive forces.

Most scholars and sages agree that magens were developed by an impatient wizard or wizards who wanted to make a construct, but did not want to wait to gain the considerable power needed to create a golem. Certainly, magens are not as powerful as golems, and it takes less effort, money, and experience to create them. Some believe wizards developed magens merely as practice before attempting to create golems. Magens have greater intelligence than golems, however, and can sometimes pass for humans.

Some speculate that the Immortals of Mystara handed down the knowledge of creating magens to early wizards, but this theory cannot be confirmed.

All magens are composed of the same material: a liquid suspension charged with magic—think of a magically charged gelatin. The liquid’s actual composition varies, but all ingredients prove exotic and hard to come by, except in a large city with a well-stocked mage’s gdd, alchemical college, or components store.

The wizard creating a magen must have a fully stocked laboratory at his disposal, including 1,000 gold pieces worth of special tools and equipment needed to create magens.  In addition, a mold must be fashioned of electrum; most wizards hire a metalsmith or sculptor to help with it.  Building the mold takes at least 6 weeks (more for finer work) and materials and labor worth 15,000 gold pieces (or as low as 10,000 gold pieces if the wizard has the appropriate facilities and skills to help in the task).

To make a magen, the wizard must also purchase 3,000 gold pieces worth of chemicals and obscure components for the suspension.  The liquid takes two weeks to prepare, and during that time the wizard concentrates so steadily on enchanting and mixing it, he can do nothing else save eat, sleep, and rest.

Once the wizard has prepared the suspension, he must add certain unique ingredients, depending on the type of magen desired.  To prepare a demos, the wizard must add the melee weapons and missile weapons he wants the completed magen to know how to use.  To form a caldron, the creator adds a pair of tentacles from a roper or choker.  Building a galvan requires a part of any creature that can generate electricity or lightning bolts.  Finally, to create a hypnos, the wizard must liquefy a scroll holding a charm person spell and pour it into the mixture.

The wizard transfers the prepared liquid to the mold casts the following spells rapidly in this order: lighting bolt, rime, transmute mud to rock, stone to flesh, domination and light bolt again. The tremendous energy of the spells interacts with the gel; roll 1d20 and check the following table for the outcome.

Roll Result
1 Lightning bolt spell reflects back at the caster. Failed.
2-3 Mixture and mold explode, causing 4d6 points of damage to everyone in a 10-foot radius. Failed.
4-6 Nothing happens. Wizard must create a new gelatin. Failed.
7-19 A magen is boml Successl
20 A magen is born! What the wizard does not know, however, is that an evil intelligence from the Outer Planes
possessed its body and eventually will turn the creature against the wizard.

The equipment, tools, and mold can be reused after the first construction.  If a wizard tries to use the mold to create a different type of magen than it previously produced, the attempt automatically fails.  Each reuse of a mold requires a saving throw vs. lightning.  Failure indicates the mold breaks during the final spellcasting.  If breakage occurs, yet the 1d20 roll indicates success, there is a slight (5%) chance that the magen emerges perfectly formed—and fully self-aware, not subject to the wizard’s command!  But usually, a broken modl results in a misshapen magen that dissolves into nothing within a few minutes.

Mystara Monstrous Compendium Appendix (1994) version.

*Scalos Magen* (2); AC 7; HD 4+2*; hp 19, 18; MV 120’ (40’); # AT 1; Dmg special or 1d6 (short sword); Save F5; SZ M; ML 12; INT 9; AL N; XP 200.

When a scalos magen touches its victim, the target creature is teleported 1d20x100 yards in a random direction (no save).  The magen inflicts no damage with this attack and will not teleport anyone holding the magical tome or one of Jarrow’s spellbooks, preferring to use their short swords instead.

Originally appeared in Dungeon Magazine #53 (1995).


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 27, 2010)

Hm. Four monsters in one. First thought--the caldron should have the ability to grapple multiple opponents without penalty.


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## freyar (Mar 29, 2010)

Actually, 5 types with the scalos one at the end.  Rather than a single "monster" with 4 entries, I think we should do this more as a set of distinct but related conversions, like the sheens and supernatural familiars.


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## Shade (Mar 29, 2010)

Agreed to different monsters in a "set".  I just wanted to list them all upfront as 1) the text was heavily integrated anyway, and 2) to determine the power level hierarchy.

These remind me a bit of homunculi.

It looks like they will all have identical mental stats (Int is given as 9), but physical scores and natural armor will vary.

Shall we start with the hypnos and work our way up?


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## freyar (Mar 29, 2010)

Sounds good to me!  2HD, Medium, then.  Anyone know what the * on the hypnos HD is from the first article?


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## GrayLinnorm (Mar 30, 2010)

Each asterisk on monster HD in D&D represents a special ability.  Monsters got bonus XP (already included in the XP values given) for each asterisk.


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## freyar (Mar 30, 2010)

Thanks!  Learn something new every day...  But it doesn't seem too important for this.


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## Shade (Mar 30, 2010)

Str 10, Dex 15, Con —, Int 9, Wis 11, Cha 10?


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## freyar (Mar 30, 2010)

Sure thing!

The charm could go a couple ways depending on which version we use.  The older text could be anything from charm to dominate, and the 1994 version looks like charm (long term or permanent?) with suggestion (almost like the bardic music effect).  So what do we want to do?


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## Shade (Mar 30, 2010)

I think charm monster/suggestion combo works best for its relative CR level.


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## freyar (Mar 30, 2010)

Makes sense to me.  Maybe just plain charm monster with the day/CL duration with suggestion riders?  Unique Su or SLA combo?


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## Shade (Mar 31, 2010)

Added the basics to Homebrews.

I think SLA works best for the charm (plus it will actually boost the save DC in this case).  The suggestion could be either Su or Sp.


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## freyar (Apr 1, 2010)

Ok, then, 

SLA: At will - charm person, suggestion (charmed targets only)?

or 

SLA: At will - charm person

Suggestion (Su): At will, a hypnos magen may contact any subject of its charm person spell-like ability telepathically, as long as that creature is on the same plane as the magen.  The hypnos magen may use this telepathic contact to impart a suggestion, as the spell.  A DC X Will save negates the suggestion.  The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## Shade (Apr 1, 2010)

Shouldn't it be charm monster?   Nothing seemed to indicate the ability should be limited to humanoids.


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## freyar (Apr 1, 2010)

I'm fine with charm monster, but here's the original quote (my bold):



> Hypnos can attempt to use *charm person* once per round; a victim who fails a saving throw vs. spells believes the hypnos to be a valued friend.


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 3, 2010)

Agreed to sticking to charm person.


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## Shade (Apr 5, 2010)

Updated.

Suggested caster level for the abilities?


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## freyar (Apr 5, 2010)

Should be reasonably high.  CL 6?  That gives it a 6 hour duration.  One argument for charm monster is the day/level duration instead, and we could stick to CL=HD then.  Hmph.


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## Shade (Apr 5, 2010)

Either approach works for me.  I don't find charm monster to be overpowered in this case, despite it being a higher level spell.

That said, CL 6th charm person may be adequate.


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## Cleon (Apr 5, 2010)

Shade said:


> Either approach works for me.  I don't find charm monster to be overpowered in this case, despite it being a higher level spell.
> 
> That said, CL 6th charm person may be adequate.




I'd rather keep it _charm person_. That's what it says in the original description, and _charm monster_ at-will is a bit more potent than I fancy for these creatures.

Maybe we should give them a higher Charisma to match their modus operandi. I'm thinking a Charisma around 13-15, since _suggestion_ is a 3rd level sorcerer spell, and their ability to telepathically command charmed creatures has a certain similarity to _dominate person_ and _telepathic bond_, both 5th level sorcerer spells.

Split the difference for Charisma 14?


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## freyar (Apr 6, 2010)

Cha 14 sounds right.


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## Shade (Apr 6, 2010)

Updated.

Suggested weapon for the attack lines?

For skills, I'm thinking throw all ranks into Concentration to ensure it succeeds with its SLA.

For the feat, Ability Focus (charm person)?   It really is a one-trick pony, after all.


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## freyar (Apr 6, 2010)

Just a dagger.  They're not big fighters.

What if we up the CL to 10 and give it Quicken SLA?  (I'm still smarting from Paizo developer comments about Ability Focus. )


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## Cleon (Apr 6, 2010)

freyar said:


> Cha 14 sounds right.




Good.

As for what weapons we fancy for them, I was thinking something better than a dagger.

The original description says they're created with skill in 1 melee weapon and 1 missile weapon, and I'm thinking these might be martial weapons. I suppose we don't want anything unusual or expensive for these.

Plain old shortsword and shortbow?


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## Shade (Apr 7, 2010)

freyar said:


> What if we up the CL to 10 and give it Quicken SLA?  (I'm still smarting from Paizo developer comments about Ability Focus. )




That seems a bit much.  If you're opposed to Ability Focus, let's at least go with a racial bonus.  It's their one schtick.  



Cleon said:


> Plain old shortsword and shortbow?




I'm on-board with shortsword, but the bow feels "too martial" for these charmers.  How about a light crossbow?


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## Cleon (Apr 7, 2010)

Shade said:


> That seems a bit much.  If you're opposed to Ability Focus, let's at least go with a racial bonus.  It's their one schtick.




13 seems a reasonable DC for such a low-level beastie, so I am not that bothered about increasing it. Then again, I have no real objection to increasing it with Ability Focus (charm person).

Increasing its CL enough to give it Quicken SLA (charm person) is  tempting, since it'll allow it to charm-and-suggest in the same round.

I couldn't think of anything else that much suits it apart from Combat Casting.

So, I guess I'll leave it to you lot to decide, since I haven't got any strong feelings about its feat.



Shade said:


> I'm on-board with shortsword, but the bow feels "too martial" for these charmers.  How about a light crossbow?




Light crossbow's fine by me.


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## freyar (Apr 8, 2010)

Xbow and shortsword are ok.

If push comes to shove, any of the 3 selected feats are ok, so I'll leave that up to you, Shade.


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## Shade (Apr 8, 2010)

Let's go with Combat Casting and leave it up to individual DM's if they wish to increase the DC via Ability Focus.  

Updated.

Organization: Solitary or x.  (The original text denotes just a single one, but I could see a spellcaster creating more than one of the same type, or even mixed types).

Challenge Rating: x

Treasure: No coins; double goods (gems only); double items?  (Type U in both editions was no coins, many gems and jewels and magic items).

Advancement: x  (Nothing seems to indicate they'd be bigger, although I suppose a giant spellcaster would make one in its image).

A magen is 6 feet tall and weighs x pounds. (Remember, they're made of jell-o  ).


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## freyar (Apr 9, 2010)

CR 1 or 2.

Treasure sounds right.

I'd go 3-4 HD (Medium), 6-8 HD (Large).

Jello's mostly water, like people, so 175-200 lb?

I'd like both single-type and mixed-type groupings of 2-8 or 12, but I don't have a good idea for a name!


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## Cleon (Apr 10, 2010)

freyar said:


> CR 1 or 2.
> 
> Treasure sounds right.
> 
> I'd go 3-4 HD (Medium), 6-8 HD (Large).




Challenge Rating 2. That Charm and suggest could be nasty.

Treasure sounds fine.

I'd prefer to keep them the same size, so 3-6 HD (Medium).



freyar said:


> Jello's mostly water, like people, so 175-200 lb?
> 
> I'd like both single-type and mixed-type groupings of 2-8 or 12, but I don't have a good idea for a name!




5-6 feet tall and 120-200 pounds?

Organization: Solitary or concoction (2-12 magen of different types) ?


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## freyar (Apr 12, 2010)

I think the fluff has them all at 6ft already.

Either advancement is ok.

I like the concoction, but I'd also like a single-type org.  Maybe a "brew" for 2-8 hypnos magen?


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## Shade (Apr 12, 2010)

Definitely CR 2.  31 hp and DR is too much for CR 1.

The rest sounds good.  Updated.

Shall we work on Construction?



			
				X2 said:
			
		

> The procedure for creating a magen varies according to the type desired, as the special properties of some magen require extra work on the part of the magic-user. In general, a large expenditure of time and money (for the costly and/or magical ingredients) is necessary to create even one or two magen. Also many high-level spells, scrolls and wishes must be used during the preparations. Even so, there is always a good chance that the incantations will fail.






			
				Mystara MC said:
			
		

> Most scholars and sages agree that magens were developed by an impatient wizard or wizards who wanted to make a construct, but did not want to wait to gain the considerable power needed to create a golem. Certainly, magens are not as powerful as golems, and it takes less effort, money, and experience to create them. Some believe wizards developed magens merely as practice before attempting to create golems. Magens have greater intelligence than golems, however, and can sometimes pass for humans.
> 
> Some speculate that the Immortals of Mystara handed down the knowledge of creating magens to early wizards, but this theory cannot be confirmed.
> 
> ...


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## freyar (Apr 12, 2010)

The 15000 gp for the electrum mold is way too high compared to a 3.5 flesh golem's cost.  The 3000 gp for the components is probably ok.  I could see requiring some kind of Craft check, though I don't know precisely which ones.

We might want more spells than just the charm person.

Do we want to retain the failure chances?


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## Shade (Apr 12, 2010)

Craft (gello mold)?  

How about Craft (alchemy) and maybe Craft (sculpting)?

Suggestion seems a no-brainer for an additional spell.

The fact that the mold can be re-used (and possibly rented/borrowed) might not make its price too high.  Pondering...


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## freyar (Apr 12, 2010)

Alchemy and sculpting make sense for the Crafts.  And suggestion, of course!  Maybe the mold can be part of a usual alchemical lab?  Or we can just cut the price a bit.


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## Cleon (Apr 12, 2010)

freyar said:


> I think the fluff has them all at 6ft already.




6 foot and 150-175 pounds then?



freyar said:


> I like the concoction, but I'd also like a single-type org.  Maybe a "brew" for 2-8 hypnos magen?




While I like the idea of including a single-type org I don't much care for "brew". How about we give them different single-type collective nouns for each type, i.e. a mesmerism of hypnos.

Also, 2-12 seems a bit narrow a range for a concoction, maybe expand it to 2-20?

*Organization:* Solitary, mesmerism (2-8 hypnos magen) or concoction (2-20 magen of different types)


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## Cleon (Apr 12, 2010)

freyar said:


> Alchemy and sculpting make sense for the Crafts.  And suggestion, of course!  Maybe the mold can be part of a usual alchemical lab?  Or we can just cut the price a bit.




I was going to suggest the electrum mold is a reusable "laboratory fixture".

Craft (Sculpting) doesn't work for me, they read as if they're alchemy, not artwork. Since it's like casting a jelly in a mold, maybe Craft (cookery) would fit better?

Perhaps something like:

*Construction*
To create a magen requires a custom built laboratory equipped with an electrum-lined mold. This mold defines the shape of the magen (humanoid, equine, canine, lizard etc). The total cost of this laboratory is *15,000?* gp, but it can be reused to make multiple magen of any type (Demos, Caldren, Hypnos et cetera). Additional molds to create magen of other shapes cost *5,000?* gp apiece.

Constructing a hypnos magen requires exotic alchemical reagents and tinctures costing at least 1000 gp. Molding the body requires a DC Y Craft (alchemy) check.

CL 5th; Craft Construct, _animate dead_, _charm person_, _suggestion_, caster must be at least 5th level; Price 5,000 gp; Cost 3,000  gp + 160 XP.


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## Shade (Apr 13, 2010)

That seems reasonable, and the DCs should be pretty low (12-13?).

Lightning bolt played a large part in the original creation.  Should we work that (or a lesser electricity spell) back in to the mix?   Perhaps shocking grasp instead of animate dead?

What about the failure chance/mishap table?   Retain or drop?


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## freyar (Apr 13, 2010)

I'm thinking that the creation mishaps aren't terribly 3e.  But we could do a CL check or some kind of penalty perhaps.  That might work.

Shocking grasp is reasonable.


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## Cleon (Apr 14, 2010)

Shade said:


> That seems reasonable, and the DCs should be pretty low (12-13?).
> 
> Lightning bolt played a large part in the original creation.  Should we work that (or a lesser electricity spell) back in to the mix?   Perhaps shocking grasp instead of animate dead?




I'd be fine adding _shocking grasp_ or _lightning bolt_, but would rather keep _animate dead_. It's a common "infusing life into unliving golem-stuff" spell for Golem construction.

After due consideration I prefer _shocking grasp_, then we can use _lightning bolt_ for the Galven Magen.



Shade said:


> What about the failure chance/mishap table?   Retain or drop?




Better cut it, I'm afraid. It doesn't fit into 3E philosophy.

I'll set the Craft DC to 12, since they should be simpler to make than a Flesh Golem.

Revising...

*Construction*
To create a magen requires a custom built laboratory equipped with an  electrum-lined mold. This mold defines the shape of the magen (humanoid,  equine, canine, lizard etc). The total cost of this laboratory is 15,000 gp, but it can be reused to make  multiple magen of any type (Demos, Caldren, Hypnos et cetera).  Additional molds to create magen of other shapes cost 5,000 gp apiece.

Constructing a hypnos magen requires exotic alchemical reagents and  tinctures costing at least 1000 gp. Molding the body requires a DC 12  Craft (alchemy) check.

CL 5th; Craft Construct, _animate dead_, _charm person_, _shocking grasp_, _suggestion_,  caster must be at least 5th level; Price 5,000 gp; Cost 3,000  gp + 160  XP.


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## Shade (Apr 14, 2010)

That'll work.  Updated.


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## freyar (Apr 14, 2010)

Looks good!  Which one's next?


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## Shade (Apr 14, 2010)

How about the Demos?

Magen, Demos
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Nil
INTELLIGENCE: Average (9)
TREASURE: C
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 2d6
ARMOR CLASS: 7 or armor type
MOVEMENT: 12
HIT DICE: 3+2
THAC0: 17
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: By weapon
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Spell immunities
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 30%
SIZE: M (6’ tall)
MORALE: Fearless (20)
XP VALUE: 120

Demos magens use armor and weapons to serve their masters.  Their creators give them the skill to use one type of melee weapon and one type of missile weapon; they can be taught more types later.  If they wear armor, they enjoy the benefit of the appropriate Armor Class, provided it exceeds their natural AC 7.  No other type of magen uses armor.

Demos
Armor Class: 7 or armor type
Hit Dice: 3+2
Move: 120’(40’)
Attacks: 1 weapon
Damage: 1-8 or  by weapon
No. Appearing: l-10
Save As: Fighter 4
Morale: 12
Treasure Type: C
Alignment: Neutral

Demos. Demos magen have no special powers and fight with weapons. If they wear armor, they will have the armor class of that armor; otherwise, their armor class is 7.


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## Cleon (Apr 14, 2010)

Shade said:


> That'll work.  Updated.




Great! It looks finished now.

Well, unless you'd like to follow my suggestion of giving each "brew" of magen a different name:

A *brew *of demos?
An *elasticity *of caldren?
A *fulmination *of galven? A *levin *of galven? (both mean "lightning")
A *charm *of hynos? A *mesmerism *of hypnos?
An *expulsion *of scalos?


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## Cleon (Apr 14, 2010)

Demos look pretty straightforward. I'd just make them three Hit Dice Medium Constructs with +3 natural armour, a bit of SR and some weapons.


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## Shade (Apr 14, 2010)

Sure, I'll go for "mesmerism".


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## Cleon (Apr 14, 2010)

Cleon said:


> *Construction*
> To create a magen requires a custom built laboratory equipped with an  electrum-lined mold. This mold defines the shape of the magen (humanoid,  equine, canine, lizard etc). The total cost of this laboratory is 15,000 gp, but it can be reused to make  multiple magen of any type (Demos, Caldren, Hypnos et cetera).  Additional molds to create magen of other shapes cost 5,000 gp apiece.
> 
> Constructing a hypnos magen requires exotic alchemical reagents and  tinctures costing at least 1000 gp. Molding the body requires a DC 12  Craft (alchemy) check.
> ...




Gah!

I just realized the original description says "Wizards never shape them to resemble animals or monsters, but sometimes give them bestial features", meaning the sample shapes for the mold was all wrong.

It needs changing from "(humanoid,  equine, canine, lizard etc)" to something like "This mold defines the shape of the magen (male or female; human, dwarf, half-elf or other humanoid race)."

*Construction*
To create a magen requires a custom built laboratory equipped with an   electrum-lined mold. This mold defines the shape of the magen (male or female;  human, dwarf, half-elf or other humanoid race). The total cost of this laboratory is  15,000 gp, but it can be reused to make  multiple magen of any type  (Demos, Caldren, Hypnos et cetera).  Additional molds to create magen of  other shapes cost 5,000 gp apiece.

Constructing a hypnos magen requires exotic alchemical reagents and   tinctures costing at least 1000 gp. Molding the body requires a DC 12   Craft (alchemy) check.

CL 5th; Craft Construct, _animate dead_, _charm person_, _shocking  grasp_, _suggestion_,  caster must be at least 5th level; Price  5,000 gp; Cost 3,000  gp + 160  XP.


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## Shade (Apr 15, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Gah!
> 
> I just realized the original description says "Wizards never shape them to resemble animals or monsters, but sometimes give them bestial features", meaning the sample shapes for the mold was all wrong.
> 
> It needs changing from "(humanoid,  equine, canine, lizard etc)" to something like "This mold defines the shape of the magen (male or female; human, dwarf, half-elf or other humanoid race)."




Oops!  I glossed over that as well.  I've now fixed it.



Cleon said:


> Demos look pretty straightforward. I'd just make them three Hit Dice Medium Constructs with +3 natural armour, a bit of SR and some weapons.




That sounds about right.  Pretty straightforward.  We might also increase Str a bit over the hypnos, and possibly lower Cha.


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## GrayLinnorm (Apr 15, 2010)

They could also have a fighter's BAB and bonus feats.


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## freyar (Apr 15, 2010)

Definitely increase Str and lower Cha.  We might also give them some fighterly bonus feats or something.

Edit: GrayLinnorm and I are apparently on the same page...


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## Shade (Apr 15, 2010)

Good ideas.   +2 Str, -2 Cha from hypnos?


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## freyar (Apr 16, 2010)

Seems like a reasonable variation.


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## Cleon (Apr 17, 2010)

Shade said:


> Good ideas.   +2 Str, -2 Cha from hypnos?




Good idea, but I'd make the swap a bit more than that. It's a rather plebeian golem without any Su attacks, so does it need a Charisma bonus?

+4 Str and -4 Cha from Hypnos.

"Warrior" BAB. (I wouldn't give it a fighter's bonus feats, I think these are more like rank-and-file guards than the martial elite)

3 Hit Dice and NA +3.

Applied to the Hypnos that makes something like:

*Magen, Demos*
Medium Construct
Hit Dice: 3d10+20 (36 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 15 (+2 Dex, +3 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+5
Attack: weapon +5 melee (?) or weapon +5 ranged  (?)
Full Attack: weapon +5 melee (?) or weapon +5 ranged  (?)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Warrior construct
Special Qualities: Construct traits, damage reduction 10/bludgeoning,  darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, spell resistance 7
Saves: Fort +1, Ref +3, Will +1
Abilities: Str 14, Dex 15, Con —, Int 9, Wis 11, Cha 10
Skills: 6
Feats: 2
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary, brew (2-8), or concoction (2-12 magen of  different types)
Challenge Rating: 2
Treasure: ?
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 4-6 HD (Medium)

*Warrior Construct (Ex):* a demos magen has a full BAB.


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## Shade (Apr 20, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.

A halberd seems a good bodyguard melee weapon.  How about a thrown weapon for the ranged weapon, to take advantage of the Str bonus?

The original description said they often wear armor, so shall we garb them in something affordable at that level?  Scale mail perhaps?

Listen and Spot for the skills?


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## Cleon (Apr 20, 2010)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> A halberd seems a good bodyguard melee weapon.  How about a thrown weapon for the ranged weapon, to take advantage of the Str bonus?




Halberd and throwing axes?



Shade said:


> The original description said they often wear armor, so shall we garb them in something affordable at that level?  Scale mail perhaps?




I'd suggest a light armour, on the basis that their master won't want to be slowed by waiting for the demos magen to catch up with them.

Studded leather?



Shade said:


> Listen and Spot for the skills?




Yup!


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## Shade (Apr 20, 2010)

Sounds good.  Updated.

Feats: 2, 2 fighter bonus feats
Point Blank Shot, Power Attack, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus (halberd)?

The ranged feats are so it won't endanger its master if he's engaged in battle.


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## freyar (Apr 21, 2010)

These look really good!  And so do the feats.  

I think these might make it up to CR 3.

Ready to tweak construction?  Change charm person and suggestion to something like magic weapon or greater magic weapon?


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## Shade (Apr 21, 2010)

Perfect!  I think greater magic weapon is probably appropriate.

They kind of straddle the line between CR 2 and 3.   Let's see what Cleon thinks.


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## freyar (Apr 21, 2010)

Also need to change some "hypnos" in the construction to "demos."  Should we think about tweaking the price based on the CR too?


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## Shade (Apr 22, 2010)

Yeah, if we're boosting the CR we should probably boost the price.


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## Cleon (Apr 23, 2010)

freyar said:


> These look really good!  And so do the feats.
> 
> I think these might make it up to CR 3.
> 
> Ready to tweak construction?  Change charm person and suggestion to something like magic weapon or greater magic weapon?




It doesn't have any enhancement bonuses to its attacks so I'm against magic weapon.

How about _bull's strength_ to explain its higher Strength?

I wonder whether these fellows be as expensive as Hypnos since they are more of a "vanilla fighter" construct. We could knock a thousand gp off their market value (Price 4,000 gp, Cost 2,500 gp + 120 XP) I suppose.

They're already pretty cheap, so it could be better to leave them at 5,000 gp.

EDIT: Oh, and the feats look good and I'd vote for CR 2.

EDIT: Upon reflection they should be 5,000 gp considering a low-level fighter is as good as a low-level wizard. Should we add the equipment cost of the armour and weapons on top of that?


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## Shade (Apr 23, 2010)

Bull's strength works for me.   Let's keep the price unchanged.

Updated.

Anything left?


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## Cleon (Apr 23, 2010)

Shade said:


> Bull's strength works for me.   Let's keep the price unchanged.
> 
> Updated.
> 
> Anything left?




Whether to add the cost of the studded leather, halberd and throwing axes to its Construction?

I think I'll make the studded leather masterwork so it doesn't have an armour check penalty.

Suggested revision...

Constructing a demos magen requires exotic alchemical reagents and  tinctures costing at least 1000 gp. Molding the body requires a DC 12  Craft (alchemy) check.

The listed cost does not include any equipment carried by the magen, the sample magen has a suit of masterwork studded leather, halberd and two throwing axes which would add 201 gp to its Construction cost. 

CL 5th; Craft Construct, animate dead, bull's strength, shocking grasp,  caster must be at least 5th level; Price 5,201 gp; Cost 3,201 gp + 160  XP.


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## Shade (Apr 23, 2010)

Let's not add the weapons and armor to construction, as the creator picks which ones it gets, so it will vary in price.

I'm fine with making the armor masterwork, though.

We can add to the flavor text that the creator must furnish the weapons and armor, although I think that is generally implied.


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## Cleon (Apr 23, 2010)

Shade said:


> Let's not add the weapons and armor to construction, as the creator picks which ones it gets, so it will vary in price.
> 
> I'm fine with making the armor masterwork, though.
> 
> We can add to the flavor text that the creator must furnish the weapons and armor, although I think that is generally implied.




Might as well say it rather than imply it then.


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## freyar (Apr 24, 2010)

We can say it, but let's not splice sentences with commas. 

"The listed cost does not include any equipment carried by the magen. The sample magen has a suit of masterwork studded leather, halberd, and two throwing axes, which would add 201 gp to its Construction cost."

Then I guess we're ready for the next one.


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## Cleon (Apr 24, 2010)

freyar said:


> We can say it, but let's not splice sentences with commas.
> 
> "The listed cost does not include any equipment carried by the magen. The sample magen has a suit of masterwork studded leather, halberd, and two throwing axes, which would add 201 gp to its Construction cost."
> 
> Then I guess we're ready for the next one.




That'd suit me.


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## Shade (Apr 26, 2010)

Sounds good!  Updated.

Here's the next one...

*Caldron.* Caldron magen have the ability to stretch their arms and legs up to 20’. They attempt to wrap their limbs around a victim and, if successful, secrete an acid which does 1-10 points of damage. The victim will continue to take damage each round unless freed.

*Magen, Caldron*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Nil
INTELLIGENCE: Average (9)
TREASURE: V
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1d4
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVEMENT: 12
HIT DICE: 4
THAC0: 17
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: By weapon
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Entanglement, acid
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Spell immunities
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 40%
SIZE: M (6’ tall)
MORALE: Fearless (20)
XP VALUE: 175

Caldrons have the ability to stretch their arms and legs up to 20 feet. They do not attack with their legs, but can stretch them to reach otherwise inaccessible places.  Caldrons attempt to wrap their arms around victims and can use both arms in the same round, attacking one or two opponents.  After a successful attack roll, the caldron holds the victim and secretes a powerful acid that causes 1d10 points of damage per round until the victim is freed.  Breaking free requires a successful open doors roll or the death of the caldron.  Note that the acid can destroy a victim’s items unless saving throws are made for them.

One hardly ever sees caldrons used as messengers or domestic help, because of their slight acidic smell and their unsettlig ability to strech their limbs.

To form a caldron, the creator adds a pair of tentacles from a roper or choker.


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## freyar (Apr 27, 2010)

Sounds like exceptional reach, improved grab, constrict, and acid.  Seem about right to you?


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## Cleon (Apr 27, 2010)

freyar said:


> Sounds like exceptional reach, improved grab, constrict, and acid.  Seem about right to you?




I'd vote against Constrict, since they seem to do damage purely by exuding acid on creatures its holding. 

There's also no mention of them having a particularly high strength, so we may want to give them a racial bonus to grapple, or maybe Improved Grapple as a bonus feat?

Note the 2nd edition stats' Special Attack line describes it as "entanglement", so maybe we  should use that as a model instead of constriction?

Anyhow, statswise I'm thinking it looks something like:

*Magen, Caldron*
Medium Construct
Hit Dice: 4d10+20 (42 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 15 (+2 Dex, +3 natural),  touch 12, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+5
Attack: Slam +5 melee (1d2+2 plus 1d4 acid) or *weapon* +5 melee (*X*+2)
Full Attack: 2 slams +5 melee (1d2+2 plus 1d4 acid); or slam +6 melee (1d2+2 plus 1d4 acid) and *weapon* +5 melee (*X*+1)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./20 ft.
Special Attacks: Acid, *entangle* [or constrict], improved grab
Special Qualities: Construct traits, damage reduction 10/bludgeoning,  darkvision 60 ft., *resistance to acid?*, low-light vision, spell resistance *X*
Saves: Fort +1, Ref +3, Will +1
Abilities: Str 14, Dex 15, Con —, Int 9, Wis 11, Cha 10
Skills: Listen +3, Spot +4
Feats: 2
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary, [*elasticity?** solution?*] (2-8), or concoction (2-12 magen of  different types)
Challenge Rating: 2
Treasure: No coins; double goods (gems only); double items
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 5-6 HD (Medium)
Level Adjustment: —


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## Shade (Apr 27, 2010)

Those stats appeal, and let's go ahead and run with constriction.  A small amount of extra damage doesn't stray too far from the original.

The acid sounds much like an ooze's acid...

Acid (Ex): A gray ooze secretes a digestive acid that quickly dissolves organic material and metal, but not stone. Any melee hit or constrict attack deals acid damage. Armor or clothing dissolves and becomes useless immediately unless it succeeds on a DC 16 Reflex save. A metal or wooden weapon that strikes a gray ooze also dissolves immediately unless it succeeds on a DC 16 Reflex save. The save DCs are Constitution-based.

The ooze’s acidic touch deals 16 points of damage per round to wooden or metal objects, but the ooze must remain in contact with the object for 1 full round to deal this damage.


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## freyar (Apr 28, 2010)

Double post


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## freyar (Apr 28, 2010)

Constrict is not a big deal to me one way or the other, though I don't think we need a name for it if we drop constrict.  It's just grappling with acid on contact.

I agree that it sounds like ooze acid, and Cleon's outline looks good.


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## Shade (Apr 30, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.

I borrowed the constrict entry from the gray ooze as well.  I think the added difficulty to the DC seems apt here as well.

For the sample weapon, how about a morningstar?

Feats: 2
Weapon Focus (slam)?  Stand Still?

Once again, 'tis a shame that Improved Grapple has Improved Unarmed Strike as a prereq.


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## Cleon (Apr 30, 2010)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> I borrowed the constrict entry from the gray ooze as well.  I think the added difficulty to the DC seems apt here as well.




I'd have it do more damage with the Constrict, maybe slam plus 2d4 acid, since the original does a respectable 2-12.



Shade said:


> For the sample weapon, how about a morningstar?




Fine by me.



Shade said:


> Feats: 2
> Weapon Focus (slam)?  Stand Still?




Those are good.



Shade said:


> Once again, 'tis a shame that Improved Grapple has Improved Unarmed Strike as a prereq.




Nothing to stop you giving it a racial bonus or bonus feat for the +4 grapple.

I'd go for the racial bonus.


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## Shade (Apr 30, 2010)

Cleon said:


> I'd have it do more damage with the Constrict, maybe slam plus 2d4 acid, since the original does a respectable 2-12.




Agreed.



Cleon said:


> Nothing to stop you giving it a racial bonus or bonus feat for the +4 grapple.
> 
> I'd go for the racial bonus.




You're right...there's nothing to stop me!  MUWAHAHAHAHAHA!   Ahem...sure, +4 racial works.  

Updated.


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## Cleon (May 1, 2010)

These are looking pretty close to finished.

You know, with a 20 foot reach and Dex 15 maybe Combat Reflexes would be more useful than Stand Still.

What challenge rating do you think? They look like a CR3 to me - they've got more HP than an ogre, do almost as much damage and have DR, SR and Construct immunities.

Apart from that, it's just Construction.

We should add an acid damage spell to the prereqs, _acid arrow_ seems the best fit in the SRD.

Do we want to keep _bull's strength_ or swap it for _acid arrow_?

They seem tougher than a demos magen, so I think we should increase their price. Maybe to 7,000 gp? (Cost 4,000 gp + 240 XP).


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## freyar (May 3, 2010)

Definitely CR 3, and I'd also go with Combat Reflexes.

Keep bull's strength and add acid arrow for construction.  And also boost the price.

Looking good!


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## Shade (May 3, 2010)

Updated.  Did we ever decide on the amount of the resistance to acid?  If not, 10 or 20 perhaps?


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## freyar (May 3, 2010)

Resistance 20 to cover the damage it does to objects.  It's a little high for the CR, but not a big deal.  Done?


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## Shade (May 3, 2010)

That works for me.

Galvan
Armor Class: 3
Hit Dice: 5
Move: 120’(40’)
Attacks: 1 or lightning bolt
Damage: by weapon or 3-18
No. Appearing: l-3 (0)
Save As: Fighter 5
Morale: 12
Treasure Type: C
Alignment: Neutral

Galvan. Galvan magen have the ability to store static electricity which they discharge as lightning bolts doing 3-18 points of damage. The lightning bolt forms a line 60’ long by 5’ wide. A successful save vs. Dragon Breath reduces damage by half. Galvan magen can discharge up to three lightning bolts per day. They will also use weapons. 

Magen, Galvan
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Nil
INTELLIGENCE: Average (9)
TREASURE: C
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1d3
ARMOR CLASS: 3
MOVEMENT: 12
HIT DICE: 5
THAC0: 15
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: By weapon
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Lightning bolt
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Spell immunities
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 50%
SIZE: M (6’ tall)
MORALE: Fearless (20)
XP VALUE: 420

Galvans have the ability to store static electricity, which they discharge as lightning bolts 60 feet long and 5 feet wide. Those in the area of effect suffer 3d6 points of damage, though a successful saving throw vs. breath weapon halves the damage. Galvans can discharge up to three bolts a day.


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## Cleon (May 5, 2010)

freyar said:


> Resistance 20 to cover the damage it does to objects.  It's a little high for the CR, but not a big deal.  Done?




It's a Construct, not an object, so it only needs to resist the 2d6 damage it does, so acid resistance 15 would be enough for me.


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## Cleon (May 5, 2010)

Shade said:


> That works for me.
> 
> Galvan
> Armor Class: 3
> ...




These have a higher AC than the other magen.

We could add a heavy shield or another couple of points of natural armour, but I'm tempted to give them a +2 dodge bonus.

Maybe they have lightning reflexes to go with their lightning bolts.

Is the electricity supernatural or extraordinary? I'm tempted to make it Extraordinary (like they're living alchemical batteries) and the DC Str-based. Perhaps they generate the wattage with their muscles, like electric eels?

The rest of it's pretty straightforward:

EDIT: Oops! I left in the Skills, Feat and Organization of the Caldron, better change that...

*Magen, Galven*
Medium Construct
Hit Dice: 5d10+20 (47 hp)
Initiative: +4
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 17 (+4 Dex, +3 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 1*3
* Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+9
Attack: Longsword +5 melee  (1d8+2/19-20) or +2 mighty longbow +8 ranged (1d8+2/  ×3)
Full Attack: Longsword +5 melee  (1d8+2/19-20) or +2 mighty longbow +8 ranged (1d8+2/  ×3)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Lightning
Special Qualities: Construct traits, damage reduction 10/bludgeoning,  darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, spell  resistance 12
Saves: Fort +1, Ref +5, Will +1
Abilities: Str 14, Dex 18, Con —, Int 9, Wis 11, Cha 10
Skills: 8 [*Listen +4, Spot +4?*]
Feats: 2 [*Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus (longbow)*]
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary, *fulmination* (2-8), or concoction (2-12 magen of  different types)
Challenge Rating: *3 or 4?*
Treasure: No coins; double goods (gems only); double items
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 5-6 HD (Medium)
Level Adjustment: —

*Lightning (Su):* Three times per day a galvan can discharge a 60 ft. line of electricity doing 1d6 electricity damage per hit dice it possesses (*5d6* for a standard galven), with a DC 14 Reflex save for half damage. The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## Shade (May 5, 2010)

Lookin' pretty good.   I don't care for Str-based electricity, though.   

As for the extra 2 points of AC, why not boost Dex?  Although nothing indicates they are more agile than the other magen, nothing refutes it either.  And like your own recommendation for Llightning Reflexes, electricity-based creatures are often "quick as lightning".


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## Cleon (May 5, 2010)

Shade said:


> Lookin' pretty good.   I don't care for Str-based electricity, though.
> 
> As for the extra 2 points of AC, why not boost Dex?  Although nothing indicates they are more agile than the other magen, nothing refutes it either.  And like your own recommendation for Llightning Reflexes, electricity-based creatures are often "quick as lightning".




I just knew you were going to say that.

My next choices would be Constitution-based or Charisma-based for the lightning.

Either way, it would give it a rather weedy DC12, we could give it Ability Focus or a +2 racial bonus, but I'd rather make it Charisma-based and give it Cha 14 like it a Hypnos (maybe they have a magnetic personality to go with their lightning reflexes).

Giving it an extra 4 Dexterity was the first notion that sprung to my head but I was just reluctant to give it a stat that much higher without some hint in the original description that supports it. If you're alright with Dex 18 we can go for that.

In that case, how about giving it a mighty longbow for its primary weapon, and change its feats to Weapon Focus (longbow) and Point Blank Shot?

Not sure what to pick as a back-up weapon. Plain old longsword?

Finally, do you think 3d6 damage is enough for the lightning? Damage-dealing spells give less bang for the buck in Third edition, so maybe we should change it to 1d6 per Hit Dice instead?

I'll revise the previous rough draft with the proposed changes.

EDIT: If we increase the lightning damage to 5d6, I'm thinking we should raise the CR to 4?


----------



## Cleon (May 5, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.  Did we ever decide on the amount of the resistance to acid?  If not, 10 or 20 perhaps?




There are a couple of errors in the Caldron writeup in its Construction section, both bits left over from the Demos Magen.

Second paragraph has "Constructing a demos magen" instead of "caldron magen".

The fourth paragraph's still got the Demos's equipment in it. Either cut it out entirely or change it to "The listed cost does not include any equipment carried by the magen. The  sample magen has a morningstar, which would add 8 gp to its construction cost."


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## Shade (May 6, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.

I agree with everything except Weapon Focus (longbow).  I'd recommend Ability Focus (lightning) instead.  Since they can barely advance, there won't be much room for customization by DMs, so I think the feat is justified to boost their main attack.

Construction is just a placeholder from the caldron.   Lightning bolt would seem to make the most sense here, probably replacing both acid arrow and shocking grasp.   Perhaps cat's grace instead of bull's strength as well?


----------



## Cleon (May 7, 2010)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> I agree with everything except Weapon Focus (longbow).  I'd recommend Ability Focus (lightning) instead.  Since they can barely advance, there won't be much room for customization by DMs, so I think the feat is justified to boost their main attack.
> 
> Construction is just a placeholder from the caldron.   Lightning bolt would seem to make the most sense here, probably replacing both acid arrow and shocking grasp.   Perhaps cat's grace instead of bull's strength as well?




Ability Focus (lightning) and Point Blank Shot are fine by me.

The spell prereqs suit me, I was going to suggest _lightning bolt_ and _cat's grace_ makes good sense.

Since we're swapping out _bull's strength_, I'd like to drop its Strength to 12 (which would give them 1d8+1 damage and Grapple +4).

Being ranged blasters they don't need a high Str as much.

I think they're about as nasty as a Caldron Magen, so shall we give them the same 7,000 gp price and Challenge Rating 3?

*Construction*
To create a magen requires a custom built laboratory equipped with an  electrum-lined mold. This mold defines the shape of the magen (male or  female; human, dwarf, half-elf or other humanoid race). The total cost  of this laboratory is 15,000 gp, but it can be reused to make multiple  magen of any type (demos, caldron, hypnos, etc.). Additional molds to  create magen of other shapes cost 5,000 gp apiece.

Constructing a galven magen requires exotic alchemical reagents and  tinctures costing at least 1,000 gp. Molding the body requires a DC 12  Craft (alchemy) check.

CL 5th; Craft Construct, _animate dead_, _cat's strength_, _lightning bolt_, caster must be at least 5th level; Price 7,000 gp; Cost  4,000 gp + 240 XP.


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## Shade (May 10, 2010)

Affirmative on all that.

Updated.

Challenge Rating: 3?

Advancement: 6 HD (Medium)?


----------



## Cleon (May 11, 2010)

Shade said:


> Affirmative on all that.
> 
> Updated.
> 
> ...




Its longbow attack goes down to +7 as it doesn't have WF (longbow) anymore.

Challenge Rating 3 suits me.

I'd make the Advancement 6-7 HD (Medium) just to allow for a touch of variability.


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## Shade (May 12, 2010)

Updated.

Time for the last one!

*Scalos Magen* (2); AC 7; HD 4+2*; hp 19, 18; MV 120’ (40’); # AT 1; Dmg special or 1d6 (short sword); Save F5; SZ M; ML 12; INT 9; AL N; XP 200.

When a scalos magen touches its victim, the target creature is teleported 1d20x100 yards in a random direction (no save).  The magen inflicts no damage with this attack and will not teleport anyone holding the magical tome or one of Jarrow’s spellbooks, preferring to use their short swords instead.

Originally appeared in Dungeon Magazine #53 (1995).


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## Shade (May 12, 2010)

We can probably modify this as needed...

Scatter Defilers (Su): Once per day a crypt thing can target its enemies with a teleportation effect, which causes them to be transported 10d10x10 feet in a random direction (Will DC 14 negates). Targets that fail their saves arrive safely in the closest open space to the destination (including shifting up or down if necessary) if a solid body occupies that location. This ability affects a number of enemies equal to the crypt thing's Hit Dice, and all targets must be within a 30-foot burst centered on the crypt thing. The transported targets cannot take any actions until their next turn. The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## Cleon (May 13, 2010)

Shade said:


> We can probably modify this as needed...
> 
> Scatter Defilers (Su): Once per day a crypt thing can target its enemies with a teleportation effect, which causes them to be transported 10d10x10 feet in a random direction (Will DC 14 negates). Targets that fail their saves arrive safely in the closest open space to the destination (including shifting up or down if necessary) if a solid body occupies that location. This ability affects a number of enemies equal to the crypt thing's Hit Dice, and all targets must be within a 30-foot burst centered on the crypt thing. The transported targets cannot take any actions until their next turn. The save DC is Charisma-based.




That'd work. Just make it a touch attack with a single target. I changed the distance to match the original's 1d20*100 yards, but I'm thinking we might want to reduce it.

*Scatter Defiler (Su):* A scalar magen can make a touch attack which causes a single opponent to be teleported 1d20x300 feet in a random direction (Will DC X negates). Targets that  fail their saves arrive safely in the closest open space to the  destination (including shifting up or down if necessary) if a solid body  occupies that location. A transported opponent takes no damage, but cannot take  any actions until their next turn. The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## Shade (May 13, 2010)

That looks good.  And it probably needs a name change, since usually nothing is being defiled.   How about "transport opponent" or "baleful teleport"?


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## Cleon (May 14, 2010)

Shade said:


> That looks good.  And it probably needs a name change, since usually nothing is being defiled.   How about "transport opponent" or "baleful teleport"?




It certainly could benefit from a better name.

Teleport Other?

Teleport Opponent?

Banish Foe?

Hmm, I'd go for either teleport opponent or baleful teleport. Don't mind which.


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## Shade (May 17, 2010)

Let's figure out ability scores.

Caldron: Str 14, Dex 15, Con —, Int 9, Wis 11, Cha 10
Demos: Str 14, Dex 15, Con —, Int 9, Wis 11, Cha 10
Galvan: Str 12, Dex 18, Con —, Int 9, Wis 11, Cha 10
Hypnos: Str 10, Dex 15, Con —, Int 9, Wis 11, Cha 14

I'm thinking slightly stronger than a hypnos, but not as charismatic.

Str 12, Dex 15, Con —, Int 9, Wis 11, Cha 12?


----------



## Cleon (May 17, 2010)

Shade said:


> Let's figure out ability scores.
> 
> Caldron: Str 14, Dex 15, Con —, Int 9, Wis 11, Cha 10
> Demos: Str 14, Dex 15, Con —, Int 9, Wis 11, Cha 10
> ...




I disagree.

Their main ability is Cha-based and a pretty potent teleportation, so I'd give them Cha 14 if not higher. Regular _teleport_ is a 5th level spell so requires a 15 in the relevant ability to cast as a spell.

Str 12, Dex 15, Con —, Int 9, Wis 11, Cha 15 ?


----------



## Shade (May 17, 2010)

My gut reaction was that the hypnos relies more on its ability over weapon attacks than the scalos (of course, we have so little flavor text for the scalos that it's hard to determine their true intent).

However, with the greater HD, I suppose a higher Cha makes sense.

Added to Homebrews.

The original text notes short swords for their melee weapon.  Suggestions for the ranged weapon?

We'll need a new group name for 'em.

For the construction, replace cat's grace and lightning bolt with teleport or dimension door?


----------



## Cleon (May 18, 2010)

Shade said:


> My gut reaction was that the hypnos relies more on its ability over weapon attacks than the scalos (of course, we have so little flavor text for the scalos that it's hard to determine their true intent).
> 
> However, with the greater HD, I suppose a higher Cha makes sense.
> 
> ...




I'm thinking either light crossbow or shortbow. They don't seem very well equipped for combat.



Shade said:


> We'll need a new group name for 'em.




Something to do with them expelling or keeping away intruders.

An ejection?

An exclusion?

An expulsion?

An eviction?

At the moment I like an exclusion of scalos the best.



Shade said:


> For the construction, replace cat's grace and lightning bolt with teleport or dimension door?




I was going to propose _dimension door_. They're still pretty low level monsters, so I wouldn't want to use a 5th level spell as a prerequisite.


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## Shade (May 18, 2010)

Sounds good.  

Updated.

Skills: 7

Feats: 2
Ability Focus (baleful teleport)...

Challenge Rating: x


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## Cleon (May 19, 2010)

Shade said:


> Sounds good.
> 
> Updated.




Hmm, I have a slight preference for shortbows for them. Since they get a free ranged weapon proficiency we might as well make it a Martial one.



Shade said:


> Skills: 7
> 
> Feats: 2
> Ability Focus (baleful teleport)...
> ...




Let's divide its skills between Listen and Spot like most of the other magen. I'm thinking Point Blank Shot for the other feat.

As for the CR it's a bit tricky. They aren't as tough in a fight as the other magen and their teleporting trick could just be a nuisance. However, if they use it to split up their opponents and gang up on those who they don't teleport away it could be nasty.

Oh blast it, let's just call them CR3.


----------



## Shade (May 19, 2010)

Updated.

Anything left?


----------



## Cleon (May 19, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Anything left?




They look pretty complete.

I suppose we could expand the tactics a bit, but they look fine.

Perhaps:

Scalos can teleport adversaries with a mere touch. If faced with a group of enemies they like to teleport away the most powerful seeming opponent, then attack whoever's left.


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## freyar (May 19, 2010)

These both look good to me.


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## Shade (May 19, 2010)

Sounds good.

Magen complete!


----------



## Cleon (May 20, 2010)

Shade said:


> Sounds good.
> 
> Magen complete!




All magen ready for action!!

Super magen action force! Deploy!!!


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## Shade (May 27, 2010)

*Strangle Vine*
Armor Class: 9
Hit Dice: 8 hp per 1' square (S to L) 
Move: 0'
Attacks: 1 
Damage: Special
No. Appearing: See below
Save As: Normal Man
Morale: 12
Treasure Type: U
Intelligence: 0
Alignment Netural
XP Value: 10 per 1' square

Monster Type: Lowlife (Rare). 
A strangle vine looks like 1d10 ordinary creepers (up to 20 feet long) dangling from the branches of a tree. It is touch-sensitive and attempts to entangle any individual moving into or through it. Creatures moving through the vines must make a saving throw vs. paralysis or become entangled. Entangled victims suffer 1d4 points of strangulation damage per round and, since the vine is firmly anchored to its tree, can even be pulled off their feet.
A character with a Strength of 6 or more has a 5% chance of breaking free of the vine by tugging at it, but the more a victim struggles, the tighter the vine clings. Weaker characters have a greater chance of escaping than strong ones. For each point of Strength under 6, the chance increases by 5% (for example, 20% for Strength 3).
An alternative means of breaking free is to cut away a sufficient area of vines (8 hp per square foot) with an edged weapon. Characters caught in the vine may attack it with a penalty of -4 to attack rolls. An area equal to the height of the character being attacked needs to be cleared to break free. Alternatively, if the the entire area taken up by the plant is cleared, the victim will be released.
Terrain: Woods, Jungle, Swamp.

Originally appeared in X9 - Savage Coast (1985).


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## freyar (May 28, 2010)

Make it Medium and 1HD or start with a bit larger and correspondingly more HD (like Large and 4HD)?  Definitely potential for lots of advancement.


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## Cleon (May 28, 2010)

These look more like a hazard to me than a monster, but I'd be game for giving them a full stat block.

Rather than Improved Grab, I'd rather they have some kind of Entangling SA with a Reflex save against any creature that wanders into their reach.

Start them out Small 1 HD Plants with Con 13-14 and Toughness as a bonus feat?[FONT=&quot][/FONT]


----------



## freyar (May 31, 2010)

I had the same thought re: hazards, but you know how Shade hates those. 

Damaging entanglement?  Might work, sure.

1HD and Small to start is fine by me, too.


----------



## Cleon (May 31, 2010)

freyar said:


> I had the same thought re: hazards, but you know how Shade hates those.
> 
> Damaging entanglement?  Might work, sure.
> 
> 1HD and Small to start is fine by me, too.




Okay then, how's this for a first draft:

I've set the advancement so they start out with 1HD per square of Space (e.g. a Large 10' by 10' plant will have 4+ HD). I'm thinking patches of these things could get enormous, so I'm having them Advance to Colossal.

Left the Attack line empty on the basis they only attack with their SA, but we could add a Tendril and Constrict attack if we wanted to.

*Strangle Vine*
Small Plant
Hit Dice: 1d8+4 (8 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 0 ft. (immobile)
Armor Class: 11 (+1 size), touch 11, flat-footed 11
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/-4
Attack: —
Full Attack: —
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Strangling vines
Special Qualities: Blind, plant traits, tremorsense 20 ft.
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +1, Will +0
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 12, Con 13, Int --, Wis 8, Cha 3
Skills: —
Feats: Toughness (B)
Environment: Warm or temperate woods and swamps
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 1/2
Treasure: 1/10th coins; 50% goods; 50% items [_incidental remains of prey_]
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 2-3 HD (Medium); 4-8 HD (Large); 9-15 HD (Huge); 16-24 HD (Gargantuan); 25-36 HD (Colossal)
Level Adjustment: —

Here's a go at the Strangling Vines SA. I haven't decided whether severing the vines should do half-damage to the monster (à la a kraken's tentacles) or whether it just takes whatever damage is done to the vines.

Which do you prefer?

*Strangling Vines (Ex):* Any creature that enters the reach of a strangle vine must succeed at a DC10 Reflex save or be seized by its vines. If they succeed, they must check again every round they remain within the plant's reach. Seized creatures are entangled and immobilized by the vines, and take 1d4 bludgeoning damage per round from being "strangled". A seized creature can escape by succeeding at a DC14 Strength check or a DC14 Escape Artist check. They can also break free by killing the strangle vine or cutting the vines that hold them; the vines are AC13 and have 4 hit points (8 hp for Medium strangle vines, 12 hp for Large, 18 hp for Huge, 24 hp for Gargantuan and 30 hp for Colossal). [1] Severing the vines does half the vines' hit points in damage to the main plant. [2] The strangle vine takes any damage that is inflicted upon its vines. The save DCs are Strength-based and include a +4 racial bonus on the Strength and Escape Artist checks.


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## freyar (May 31, 2010)

Half damage to the plant, I think.

But should it be anything in reach or anything that just walks through?  Hmm.  I guess if we think of it hanging from a trellis or something, we mean reach.  I'm also not sure I like the use of "immobilized."  Entangled is probably sufficient and wouldn't raise as many questions (how can an immobilized creature attack? etc).


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## Shade (Jun 1, 2010)

A good start, guys!

The "immobilized" condition isn't in the SRD, is it?  I believe it was added quite late in the 3.5 days.

I can live without traditional attacks for these things, just relying on the strangling vines.

Also, if they're truly strangling victims, we should borrow from the choker...

"Because it seizes its victim by the neck, a creature in the choker’s grasp cannot speak or cast spells with verbal components."


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## Cleon (Jun 1, 2010)

freyar said:


> Half damage to the plant, I think.
> 
> But should it be anything in reach or anything that just walks through?  Hmm.  I guess if we think of it hanging from a trellis or something, we mean reach.  I'm also not sure I like the use of "immobilized."  Entangled is probably sufficient and wouldn't raise as many questions (how can an immobilized creature attack? etc).




Funny, I was sure the original version had its vines creeping towards its victims, but reading the entry again it's just "attempts to entangle any individual moving into or through it". The vines are up to 20 feet long though, so may stretch out some distance from the plant's stem.

So I can see two main choices:

*Option 1:*
Cut the Advancement to Large and give Medium and larger specimens Improved Reach?

e.g.:

Strangle Vine
Small Plant
Space/Reach: 5 ft./0 ft. (5 ft. with strangling vines)
Advancement: 2-3 HD (Medium); 4-8 HD (Large)

Medium Strangle Vine
 Space/Reach: 5 ft./0 ft. (10 ft. with strangling vines)

Large Strangle Vine
 Space/Reach: 10 ft./0 ft. (20 ft. with strangling vines)

*Option 2:*
Drop the reach and just have it attack creatures that enter its Space while keeping the Advancement up to Colossal. That would seem to be a better fit to the original description.

Strangle Vine
Small Plant
 Space/Reach: 5 ft./0 ft.

I think I prefer the second option.

As for the "immobilized" bit I was having some trouble with that to, but wasn't sure what to say - the best I can come up with is "cannot move out of the space they where in when the vines seized them"

Revising...

*Strangling Vines (Ex):* Any creature that enters the space [reach] of a  strangle vine must succeed at a DC10 Reflex save or be seized by its  vines. If they succeed, they must check again every round they remain  within the plant's space [reach]. Seized creatures are entangled, cannot move out of the space they where in when the vines seized them, and take 1d4 damage (plus Strength bonus, if any) per round from being "strangled". Any creature in a strangle vine's grasp cannot speak or cast spells with verbal components, because the vines seize the victim's head and neck and try forcing their way down the victim's throat.  A seized creature can escape by succeeding at a DC14 Strength check or a DC14 Escape Artist check. They can also break free  by killing the strangle vine or cutting the vines that hold them; the  vines are AC13 and have 4 hit points (8 hp for Medium strangle vines, 12  hp for Large, 18 hp for Huge, 24 hp for Gargantuan and 30 hp for  Colossal). Severing the vines does half the vines' hit points in damage to the main plant. The save DCs are  Strength-based and include a +4 racial bonus on the Strength and Escape  Artist checks.

That looks OK to me.

I'm also wondering about expanding the Organisation to allow for groups. Something like:

Organization: Solitary; gallows (2-5) or copse (4-40)


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## Cleon (Jun 1, 2010)

Shade said:


> Also, if they're truly strangling victims, we should borrow from the choker...
> 
> "Because it seizes its victim by the neck, a creature in the choker’s grasp cannot speak or cast spells with verbal components."




I'm a bit divided on that.

They don't seem very mobile and I'm presuming they're blind, so how do they even know were the victim's neck is, let alone hit it accurately?

Hmm, maybe they can smell the carbon dioxide in the victim's breath, and try to stick their vines down their throat?

I like that idea!

I'll revise my last post to include a cutting off speech/verbal spells bit.

Where are you on the "Space or Reach" question regarding the area the strangling covers?

EDIT: Oh, I've also added mention of a strength bonus to the strangling  damage.

I'm also having second thoughts about giving it the bludgeoning type. It seems a bit inappropriate, maybe make it untyped?

Hmm, slow suffocation causes untyped nonlethal damage, to making it untyped makes sense to me.

I'll cut out the bludgeoning.


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## freyar (Jun 1, 2010)

Cleon's new draft is starting to look ok, though a little wordy. 

I can't find immobilized as a condition in the SRD, though I may just have missed it.


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## Shade (Jun 1, 2010)

FWIW, here's how it appears in _Tome of Magic_:

Immobilized: The immobilized condition prevents a creature from moving from the space in which it starts its turn. An immobilized creature can attack and cast spells, and it keeps its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class. Flying creatures that become immobilized can control their descent so they don't take falling damage, but they are incapable of moving from their current space until the condition ends, descending at a rate of 20 feet per round. If an immobilized flying creature can hover, it maintains its altitude, but it still can't move from its space until the condition ends.


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## freyar (Jun 2, 2010)

Ah, that would be just about right.  Too bad we can't seem to use it, as it would be a bit of a mouthful.  Maybe entangled, but not easy to escape.


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## Cleon (Jun 2, 2010)

Shade said:


> FWIW, here's how it appears in _Tome of Magic_:
> 
> Immobilized: The immobilized condition prevents a creature from moving from the space in which it starts its turn. An immobilized creature can attack and cast spells, and it keeps its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class. Flying creatures that become immobilized can control their descent so they don't take falling damage, but they are incapable of moving from their current space until the condition ends, descending at a rate of 20 feet per round. If an immobilized flying creature can hover, it maintains its altitude, but it still can't move from its space until the condition ends.




That isn't OGL I believe, so I guess we're stuck with the "wordy" version.

Any thoughts about the "Reach or Space" question?


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## freyar (Jun 3, 2010)

Well, if space is really a 5ft cube, I think I like space.


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## Cleon (Jun 5, 2010)

freyar said:


> Well, if space is really a 5ft cube, I think I like space.




That's fine by me!

That means we've currently got the following. I've broken the Strangling vines up into 3 paragraphs to make it a bit more legible:

*Strangle Vine*
Small Plant
Hit Dice: 1d8+4 (8 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 0 ft. (immobile)
Armor Class: 11 (+1 size), touch 11, flat-footed 11
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/-4
Attack: —
Full Attack: —
Space/Reach: 5 ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: Strangling vines
Special Qualities: Blind, plant traits, tremorsense 20 ft.
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +1, Will +0
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 12, Con 13, Int --, Wis 8, Cha 3
Skills: —
Feats: Toughness (B)
Environment: Warm or temperate woods and swamps
Organization: Solitary; gallows (2-5) or copse (4-40)     
Challenge Rating: 1/2
Treasure: 1/10th coins; 50% goods; 50% items
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 2-3 HD (Medium); 4-8 HD (Large); 9-15 HD (Huge); 16-24 HD  (Gargantuan); 25-36 HD (Colossal)
Level Adjustment: —

*Combat*

*Strangling Vines (Ex):* Any creature that enters the space of a  strangle vine must succeed at a DC10  Reflex save or be seized by its  vines. If they succeed, they must check  again every round they remain  within the plant's space.

Seized creatures are entangled, cannot move  out of the space they where standing in when the vines seized them, and take 1d4  damage (plus Strength bonus, if any) per round from being "strangled".  Any creature in a strangle vine's grasp cannot speak or cast spells with  verbal components, because the vines wrap round their head and neck  and try forcing themselves down their victim's throat.

A seized creature  can escape by succeeding at a DC14 Strength check or a DC14 Escape  Artist check. They can also break free  by killing the strangle vine or  cutting the vines that hold them; the  vines are AC13 and have 4 hit  points (8 hp for Medium strangle vines, 12  hp for Large, 18 hp for  Huge, 24 hp for Gargantuan and 30 hp for  Colossal). Severing the vines  does half the vines' hit points in damage to the main plant. The DCs are  Strength-based and include a +4 racial bonus on the Strength  and Escape  Artist checks.


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## freyar (Jun 6, 2010)

Looks good, but I have to ask what's the rationale for increasing the hp of each vine with the size of the monster?  I had been imagining a Colossal strangle vine as almost a collection of regular ones.  That is, each vine is the same size, but the plant as a whole (a collection of vines) gets larger.

Also, since everything is really dependent on space, I think there's not much point starting them at Small, is there?  We should probably start them at Medium.


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## Cleon (Jun 6, 2010)

freyar said:


> Looks good, but I have to ask what's the rationale for increasing the hp of each vine with the size of the monster?  I had been imagining a Colossal strangle vine as almost a collection of regular ones.  That is, each vine is the same size, but the plant as a whole (a collection of vines) gets larger.




Its not per vine, it's "vines", the hit points represent *all* the  vines entangling the target. I'm thinking a big strangle vine will  entangle an opponent with a lot more vines than a little one, since it's  got more of them and they'll have a longer reach.



freyar said:


> Also, since everything is really dependent on space, I think there's not much point starting them at Small, is there?  We should probably start them at Medium.




I might prefer them small but perfectly formed.

The original plant starts out occupying a 1-foot square, which doesn't  seem Medium-sized to me. Besides which, I like having a size and ability score graduation between the basic 1HD plant and the 4HD Large plant.

That said, if Shade wants them to start out Medium too I would probably put up with it without too much grumbling.


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## freyar (Jun 6, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Its not per vine, it's "vines", the hit points represent *all* the  vines entangling the target. I'm thinking a big strangle vine will  entangle an opponent with a lot more vines than a little one, since it's  got more of them and they'll have a longer reach.




I see what you're saying now, but it's not a standard severing mechanic, and it doesn't seem crystal clear from the write-up.  The problem is, when I think about how to clean this up, I'm led toward making each attached vine the result of a touch attack or something.  The other thing that bothers me a little about this is that it's too much advancement information.  That kind of stuff is usually left to the DM to figure out.



> I might prefer them small but perfectly formed.
> 
> The original plant starts out occupying a 1-foot square, which doesn't  seem Medium-sized to me. Besides which, I like having a size and ability score graduation between the basic 1HD plant and the 4HD Large plant.
> 
> That said, if Shade wants them to start out Medium too I would probably put up with it without too much grumbling.




Going down to a 1-ft square would be Tiny, though, and not Small.  It's just that the way these critters work doesn't distinguish between Small and Large plants.  Frankly, since every PC (except for someone playing sprites pretty much) is going to have a 5 ft space, even a Tiny strangle vine will act pretty much like a Medium one.


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## Cleon (Jun 7, 2010)

freyar said:


> Going down to a 1-ft square would be Tiny, though, and not Small.  It's just that the way these critters work doesn't distinguish between Small and Large plants.  Frankly, since every PC (except for someone playing sprites pretty much) is going to have a 5 ft space, even a Tiny strangle vine will act pretty much like a Medium one.




Except they'll have different Strength scores, which will make a big impact on their "strangling" damage and DC.

I still prefer starting at Small.


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## Cleon (Jun 7, 2010)

freyar said:


> I see what you're saying now, but it's not a standard severing mechanic, and it doesn't seem crystal clear from the write-up.  The problem is, when I think about how to clean this up, I'm led toward making each attached vine the result of a touch attack or something.  The other thing that bothers me a little about this is that it's too much advancement information.  That kind of stuff is usually left to the DM to figure out.




Well it's easy enough to make clear that there can be more than one vine holding them. Upon reflection, using the "half damage when severed" rule makes little sense, since it has multiple vines per square. I'd change it to the plant takes damage on a 1:2 ratio.

Also, in the original version once a square is "cleared" the strangle vine can't attack in it - should we include that trait in the Strangling Vines? 

Something like "If all the vines in a square are severed the plant can not seize or strangle creatures in that square." I would rather not, since (a) I like to think of the vines as being slightly mobile, allowing them to slither into empty squares, and (b) it'd mean you'd have to keep track of its HPs per square which seems a _little_ fiddly.

Revising...

*Strangling Vines (Ex):* Any creature that enters the  space of a  strangle vine must succeed at a DC10  Reflex save or be  seized by its  vines. If they succeed, they must check  again every  round they remain  within the plant's space.

Seized creatures are entangled, cannot move  out of the space they where  standing in when the vines seized them, and take 1d4  damage (plus  Strength bonus, if any) per round from being "strangled".  Any creature  in a strangle vine's grasp cannot speak or cast spells with  verbal  components, because the vines wrap round their head and neck  and try  forcing themselves down their victim's throat.

A seized creature  can escape by succeeding at a DC14 Strength check or a  DC14 Escape  Artist check. They can also break free  by killing the  strangle vine or  cutting through all the vines that hold them; the  vines are AC13  and have 4 hit  points (8 hp for Medium strangle vines, 12  hp for  Large, 18 hp for  Huge, 24 hp for Gargantuan and 30 hp for  Colossal). The main plant takes 1 point of damage for every 2 points of damage done to its vines. *[*If all the vines in a square are severed the plant can not seize or  strangle creatures in that square.* - don't much care for this option]*

The DCs are  Strength-based and include a +4 racial bonus on  the Strength  and Escape  Artist checks.


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## Shade (Jun 7, 2010)

I can live with Small, but I'm almost tempted to make the whole mass of 'em Large and give 'em the "Airy" SQ.   Kinda like a stationary swarm.


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## freyar (Jun 8, 2010)

Shade said:


> I can live with Small, but I'm almost tempted to make the whole mass of 'em Large and give 'em the "Airy" SQ.   Kinda like a stationary swarm.



Now that's an option I like!  I can wrap my head around that better.


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## Shade (Jun 8, 2010)

The more I think about, I think it will work much better.  Then the whole "entering its space" bit will work similar to beginning your turn with a swarm in your space.


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## freyar (Jun 8, 2010)

I think I have to agree.  Maybe switch it to beginning the vine's turn or something.  Let's see if Cleon will go with this.


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## Cleon (Jun 9, 2010)

Shade said:


> I can live with Small, but I'm almost tempted to make the whole mass of 'em Large and give 'em the "Airy" SQ.   Kinda like a stationary swarm.




I like the Airy SQ but would still rather have them start out Small.


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## freyar (Jun 9, 2010)

If they're Small _and_ Airy, then they should be extremely wimpy.  I think that would be a little redundant, wouldn't it?


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## Shade (Jun 9, 2010)

Yeah, it would seem so.  Any reason you so badly desire them to be Small, Cleon?


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## Cleon (Jun 12, 2010)

Shade said:


> Yeah, it would seem so.  Any reason you so badly desire them to be Small, Cleon?




I've already said I preferred some graduation of physical ability scores below Large.

If you're dead set against Small I would be prepared to compromise by having them start out Medium.


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## freyar (Jun 13, 2010)

Well, I'm ok with Medium, but then I'm not so sure about Airy.  And I still think we need to work out the vines a little.


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## Cleon (Jun 13, 2010)

freyar said:


> Well, I'm ok with Medium, but then I'm not so sure about Airy.  And I still think we need to work out the vines a little.




Work them out how?


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## freyar (Jun 14, 2010)

I don't know for sure.  It's more of a vague feeling that it doesn't quite fit in the usual mechanics.


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## Shade (Jun 14, 2010)

The more I think about this, we should just make it an immobile swarm, using all the usual swarm mechanics.


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## freyar (Jun 14, 2010)

That's really ok with me, but you'll have to convince Cleon.


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## Shade (Jun 14, 2010)

Wish me luck.


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## Cleon (Jun 15, 2010)

Shade said:


> The more I think about this, we should just make it an immobile swarm, using all the usual swarm mechanics.




I would rather not, since it would prevent us having a 1-square version.



freyar said:


> That's really ok with me, but you'll have to  convince Cleon.




Maybe they'd work better as a hazard.


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## Shade (Jun 16, 2010)

I'll settle for hazard at this point, because I don't think we'll ever agree on the size and mechanics.


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## Cleon (Jun 17, 2010)

Shade said:


> I'll settle for hazard at this point, because I don't think we'll ever agree on the size and mechanics.




I feel your pain.

Perhaps we should each stat up our own version, and just post them all.


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## freyar (Jun 17, 2010)

How about we start them at Medium and take a fresh look at the strangling vines?


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## Cleon (Jun 17, 2010)

freyar said:


> How about we start them at Medium and take a fresh look at the strangling vines?




I'm game. What do you suggest?


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## Shade (Jun 17, 2010)

Ditto here.


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## freyar (Jun 17, 2010)

We currently have:



> Strangling Vines (Ex): Any creature that enters the space of a strangle vine must succeed at a DC10 Reflex save or be seized by its vines. If they succeed, they must check again every round they remain within the plant's space.
> 
> Seized creatures are entangled, cannot move out of the space they where standing in when the vines seized them, and take 1d4 damage (plus Strength bonus, if any) per round from being "strangled". Any creature in a strangle vine's grasp cannot speak or cast spells with verbal components, because the vines wrap round their head and neck and try forcing themselves down their victim's throat.
> 
> A seized creature can escape by succeeding at a DC14 Strength check or a DC14 Escape Artist check. They can also break free by killing the strangle vine or cutting the vines that hold them; the vines are AC13 and have 4 hit points (8 hp for Medium strangle vines, 12 hp for Large, 18 hp for Huge, 24 hp for Gargantuan and 30 hp for Colossal). Severing the vines does half the vines' hit points in damage to the main plant. The DCs are Strength-based and include a +4 racial bonus on the Strength and Escape Artist checks.




I think the biggest thing that doesn't sit doesn't feel right to me is the changing hp for the vines.  If the point is that you are wrapped up by multiple vines, shouldn't you just get tangled again as you try to cut out?  Or maybe even burst out with a Str check?


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## Shade (Jun 18, 2010)

Yeah, that seems to be the biggest issue for me.  If the thing is Small, then it is essentially the whole plant as far as I'm concerned, and cutting the "vines" is cutting the whole plant.

If it were Large, it would make much, much more sense as written.


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## Cleon (Jun 19, 2010)

freyar said:


> I think the biggest thing that doesn't sit doesn't feel right to me is the changing hp for the vines.  If the point is that you are wrapped up by multiple vines, shouldn't you just get tangled again as you try to cut out?  Or maybe even burst out with a Str check?




Well if we followed the original version the vines hit points represent all the vines in a square, so once you cut a creature free the strangler vine can't attack them in that square.

While that seems OK for a hazard, it doesn't feel quite right for a creature.

My rationale for having larger patches have more hp was that they'd have more and longer vines to hold a victim, an argument I think still holds water.

However, I agree that it should just add new vines while a victim is trying to cut themselves free, so how about we say the damage has to be done in one round, so it doesn't have time to add more tendrils?

How about the following:

*Strangling Vines (Ex):* Any creature that enters the space of a strangle  vine must succeed at a DC10 Reflex save or be seized by its vines. If  they succeed, they must check again every round they remain within the  plant's space.

Seized creatures are entangled, cannot move out of the space they where  standing in when the vines seized them, and take 1d4 damage (plus  Strength bonus, if any) per round from being "strangled". Any creature  in a strangle vine's grasp cannot speak or cast spells with verbal  components, because the vines wrap round their head and neck and try  forcing themselves down their victim's throat.

A seized creature can escape by succeeding at a DC14 Strength check or a  DC14 Escape Artist check. They can also break free by killing the  strangle vine or cutting the vines that hold them; an opponent must do at least 4 points of damage to the AC 13 vines in a single round to free a seized creature (8 hp for Large strangle vines, 12 hp for Huge,  16 hp for Gargantuan and 20 hp for Colossal). The damage must be done over a single round because the strangle vine will wraps fresh tendrils around the seized victim the next round to replace any that have been severed or crushed. Damage done to the vines is subtracted from the hit points of the entire plant.  The DCs are Strength-based and include a +4 racial bonus on the Strength  and Escape Artist checks.


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## freyar (Jun 21, 2010)

Hmm, I still think that a bigger strangle vine won't be more dense, just take up more squares.  So this is ok with me if we just drop the "advancement rules" for the vine hp.  (And leaving it out leaves room for DM interpretation. )


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## Shade (Jun 21, 2010)

I'm with ya, freyar.


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## Cleon (Jun 22, 2010)

freyar said:


> Hmm, I still think that a bigger strangle vine won't be more dense, just take up more squares.  So this is ok with me if we just drop the "advancement rules" for the vine hp.  (And leaving it out leaves room for DM interpretation. )




I'll go along with that. While I prefer size advancement for the vines hps, I'm even more in favour of finally finishing these blasted things!

What is it about some of these simple monsters that makes them take so long to convert!


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## Shade (Jun 22, 2010)

Yep, these are a pain in the ol' arse.  

Now that we've got that figured out, remind me where we're at on ability scores and whatnot so I can Homebrew this monstrosity.


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## freyar (Jun 22, 2010)

Cleon had Str 10, Dex 12, Con 13, Int --, Wis 8, Cha 3 for a Small one.  Upsizing to Medium gives Str 14, Dex 10, Con 15, Int --, Wis 8, Cha 3.  How's that?


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## Shade (Jun 22, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.

I added camouflage since most vine monsters have it.


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## freyar (Jun 22, 2010)

Looks good.  And basically done!  I can support CR 1/2.  It's got decent hp for that CR, but the save DC is low enough.


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## Cleon (Jun 22, 2010)

freyar said:


> Looks good.  And basically done!  I can support CR 1/2.  It's got decent hp for that CR, but the save DC is low enough.




Challenge Rating half sounds OK.

About all that is left is the size. I'm thinking "A typical strangle vine is a mass of creepers about 5 feet across, the largest specimens can spread up to 30 feet across." ?


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## Shade (Jun 22, 2010)

Updated.   Finito?


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## freyar (Jun 23, 2010)

Stick a "but" after the comma in the last sentence Cleon proposed, and I think so.


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## Cleon (Jun 23, 2010)

freyar said:


> Stick a "but" after the comma in the last sentence Cleon proposed, and I think so.




"A typical strangle vine is a mass of creepers about 5 feet across, but the  largest specimens can spread up to 30 feet across." is fine by me.


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## Cleon (Jun 23, 2010)

Oh, and here's a first attempt at a Hazard version of the strangle vine for those who can't be bothered with a full monster. I added the DR 5/slashing and tweaked the DCs and damage a bit to justify making them CR1.

*Strangle Vine (CR 1)*
Strangle vines are carnivorous plants that grow in forests and swamps. Most strangle vine patches are 10 to 30 feet across, but they can cover areas ranging from a few square feet to several acres. These plants mimic harmless vines or creepers, it takes a DC20 Survival or Knowledge (nature) check to notice a strangle vine is a dangerous plant. Any creature that contacts a strangle vine must succeed on a DC 15 Reflex save or be seized by its vines. If they succeed, they must check again every round they remain in contact with the vine.

Seized creatures are entangled, cannot move out of the space they where standing in when the vines seized them, and take 1d6+2 damage per round from being "strangled". Any creature in a strangle vine's grasp cannot speak or cast spells with verbal components, because the vines wrap round the victim's head and neck and try forcing themselves down the victim's throat. A seized creature can escape by succeeding on a DC 15 Strength check or a DC 15 Escape Artist check or when the vine's hit points are reduced to 0. A seized creature can only attack the vines with light slashing or  piercing weapons.

Each strangle vine occupies a 5-foot square and has 8 hit points, AC13 and damage reduction 5/slashing. A _command plants_ spell will stop strangle vines attacking, affecting two 5-foot squares per caster level. A _diminish plants _spell will weaken a strangle vine's strangling by reducing the damage to 1d4 and the Reflex, Strength and Escape Artist DCs to 10, while a _plant growth _spell increases the strangling damage to 1d6+6 and the DCs to 20.


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## Shade (Jun 23, 2010)

Updated with the "but".


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## Cleon (Jun 24, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated with the "but".




but... but... but that means they're finished and we can't argue about them any more.


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## freyar (Jun 24, 2010)

Cleon said:


> but... but... but that means they're finished and we can't argue about them any more.



Thank goodness!


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## Shade (Jun 30, 2010)

*Shadow Wolves*
Armor Class: 3
Hit Dice: 4+1
Move: 180’ (40’)
Attacks: 1 bite
Damage: 1-4+special
No. Appearing: 2-12 (1-6)
Save As: Magic user 5
Morale: 12
Treasure Type: Nil
Intelligence: 6
Alignment: Chaotic
XP Value: 275

Shadow Wolves are creatures of pure shadow, which can be called into being by powerful magic users (cf. shadows – BD 36).  In appearance, they are very much like normal grey wolves, except that, in bright light, they are slightly translucent.  They can only be harmed by magical or silver weapons.

In addition to causing damage, the bite of a shadow wolf causes its victim to fade into shadow.  In the process the victim loses 1 hit point per round and gradually becomes greyer and slightly translucent to onlookers.  This fading process continues until the victim is reduced to zero hit points, in which case hoe or she becomes a shadow wolf, or a successful saving throw vs. Paralyzation is made.  Additional bites inflicted while a victim is fading do not increase the rate of hit point loss.

You should keep separate records of bite and “fading” damage caused to each victim, since the latter is resistant to magical methods of healing, such as cure spells and potions.  Two “hit points worth” of magical healing are required to restore each hit point lost as a result of fading.  Victims who choose to rest and recover do so at the normal rate (1 hit point per day of rest).

Originally appeared in ST1 - Up the Garden Path (1986).


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## Shade (Jun 30, 2010)

The "fading" sounds like a supernatural disease, akin to mummy rot.


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## Cleon (Jul 2, 2010)

Shade said:


> The "fading" sounds like a supernatural disease, akin to mummy rot.




These seem like a cross between a Shadow and a Shadow Mastiff.

First question, are we making them incorporeal?

I'm thinking we should, due to their translucency and "fading attack".

Their ability to turn their victims into more shadow wolves suggests they're Undead, although I could see them being Outsiders as there's no mention of them being turnable. (Then again, early D&D Shadows weren't Undead and they became Undead in later editions).


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## Shade (Jul 2, 2010)

I'd prefer incorporeal extraplanar outsiders, hailing from the Plane of Shadow.


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## Cleon (Jul 3, 2010)

Shade said:


> I'd prefer incorporeal extraplanar outsiders, hailing from the Plane of Shadow.




Fine by me!

Since they're incorporeal I'm assuming they'll gave a deflection bonus on AC. How about +4 deflection and +3 Dex to give them their AC17?

Something like:

Abilities: Str --, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 13, +4 deflection


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## freyar (Jul 5, 2010)

The deflection bonus should be +1 or the Cha bonus, whichever is greater, so let's just make Cha 19.  Or else boost the Dex a bit.


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## Mortis (Jul 6, 2010)

OK I'm a bit of a blast from the past but I felt the urge to make a comment...

I've been thinking about the fade ability. Here's a brief take on it.

As the victim fades from view on the Material Plane he slowly gains substance on the shadow wolf's native plane (Plane of Shadow). Once the victim has full materialised (ie dead on the Material) the shadow wolf can eat its meal in piece.

Shadow Wolves in Mystara
Everything written above is true for Mystaran shadow wolves except for one point. A Mystaran shadow wolf is native to the Plane of Limbo. This has resulted in a very sinister practice. Unscrupulous people on the Plane of Limbo have domesticated shadow wolves and use them to capture victims from the Prime Plane. This is because life energy is the currency of the Plane of Limbo [see Dragon #180] and the hunters gather the victim's life force in specially prepared gems to be 'spent' at a later date.

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Jul 6, 2010)

Mortis!   Long time no see.  I had no idea you were back, but I'm glad to see ya.  

That flavor text looks good.

Agreed to increasing Dex and/or Cha to reach the desired AC.


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## freyar (Jul 6, 2010)

Hey, welcome back, Mortis!  Stick around for a while!

How about Dex 19, Cha 17?  Then make the DC on the "fading disease" Con-based so it's not too nasty?  I agree that it seems like mummy rot.  Should it require something like break enchantment/remove curse or just a CL check on spells like remove disease/restoration?


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## Shade (Jul 6, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.

Con-based can work for the disease, since they aren't undead.   Caster level check might suffice in this case.  What sort of damage should it do in conjunction with the fading?   Strength like shadows?


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## Mortis (Jul 7, 2010)

freyar said:


> Should it require something like break enchantment/remove curse or just a CL check on spells like remove disease/restoration?



In view of my suggestion that the victim ends up on the shadow wolf's plane how about dimensional anchor?

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Jul 7, 2010)

That could be fun to throw into the mix.  How about dimensional anchor stalls the progression of the disease, but remove disease is still needed to eliminate it?


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## Mortis (Jul 7, 2010)

Shade said:


> How about dimensional anchor stalls the progression of the disease, but remove disease is still needed to eliminate it?



That works

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Jul 8, 2010)

Attempting to put it all together...

Fading (Su): Supernatural disease—bite, Fortitude DC 14, incubation period 1 minute; damage 1d6 Str. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Unlike normal diseases, fading continues until the victim reaches Strength 0 (and dies) or is cured as described below. 

Fading is a powerful curse, not a natural disease. A character attempting to cast any conjuration (healing) spell on a creature afflicted with fading must succeed on a DC 20 caster level check, or the spell has no effect on the afflicted character.

To eliminate fading, the curse must first be broken with break enchantment or remove curse (requiring a DC 20 caster level check for either spell), after which a caster level check is no longer necessary to cast healing spells on the victim, and the fading can be magically cured as any normal disease.  A dimensional anchor, dimensional lock, or similar effect stalls the progression of the disease for as long as the spell remains in effect (and the victim remains within the area of effect, in the case of dimensional lock).

As the victim fades from view on the Material Plane, it slowly gains substance on the Plane of Shadow. Once the victim reaches Strength 0 and dies, it has fully materialised on the Plane of Shadow, where the shadow wolf can eat its meal in peace.


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## freyar (Jul 8, 2010)

Looks fine to me!


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## Mortis (Jul 9, 2010)

freyar said:


> Looks fine to me!




Me too.

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Jul 9, 2010)

Updated.

Give 'em the same racial bonuses as shadows? 

Skills: Shadows have a +2 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks and a +4 racial bonus on Search checks. *A shadow gains a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks in areas of shadowy illumination. In brightly lit areas, it takes a –4 penalty on Hide checks.

Skills: 6 at 7 ranks
Hide, Listen, Spot, Survival...

Feats: 2
Track?


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## freyar (Jul 9, 2010)

The racial  bonuses work for me.

Intimidate and Knowledge (the planes)?

Track and Skill Focus (Survival)?


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## Cleon (Jul 10, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Give 'em the same racial bonuses as shadows?
> 
> Skills: Shadows have a +2 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks and a +4 racial bonus on Search checks. *A shadow gains a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks in areas of shadowy illumination. In brightly lit areas, it takes a –4 penalty on Hide checks.




I was thinking more of the Shadow Mastiff's Shadow Blend ability.



Shade said:


> Skills: 6 at 7 ranks
> Hide, Listen, Spot, Survival...
> 
> Feats: 2
> Track?




Maybe Tumble so it can slip through enemies like a shadow?

It doesn't need Move Silently to sneak up to victims since it's incorporeal.

Intimidate?

I'd give it Track as a bonus feat.

Looking at other Lupine SRD monsters we've got things like Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus (bite), Dodge, Alertness and Run as examples.

I would go for Run and Weapon Focus (bite) for them, but the other examples are good picks too.


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## freyar (Jul 11, 2010)

Tumble is a bit less useful for an incorporeal creature too, but I'll admit that there aren't a lot of great choices.

Track as bonus is fine, but then I think I'd prefer Imp Init to Run.  WF (bite) is ok.


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## Shade (Jul 12, 2010)

Agreed to Improved Init and WF (bite), with Track as a bonus feat.

Should we give 'em scent and the usual wolf "tracking by scent" bonus?

Updated.

Freyar--break the tie on shadow's hide bonuses vs. shadow blend.     My support for the former is to not tread too much upon the shadow mastiff's niche.


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## freyar (Jul 12, 2010)

Trying to find a compromise: why don't we give them scent and the Survival bonus like a shadow mastiff and the Hide bonus like a shadow?


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## Cleon (Jul 14, 2010)

Shade said:


> Agreed to Improved Init and WF (bite), with Track  as a bonus feat.
> 
> Should we give 'em scent and the usual wolf "tracking by scent" bonus?
> 
> ...






freyar said:


> Trying to find a compromise: why don't we give them scent and the Survival bonus like a shadow mastiff and the Hide bonus like a shadow?




That's fine by me.

You know, 1d4 seems a bit feeble for their bite attack. How about making it 1d6 like a regular Wolf or Shadow Mastiff.

Challenge Rating and Advancement next?

They look around a CR3 to me.

Advancement 5-8 HD (Medium); 9-12 HD (Large), same as a Hellhound?


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## freyar (Jul 15, 2010)

When Shade gets the hp to add to 26 like they should, I'll agree with you on all points, including the bite.


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## Cleon (Jul 15, 2010)

freyar said:


> When Shade gets the hp to add to 26 like they should, I'll agree with you on all points, including the bite.




Good point!

Any ideas on the descriptive & tactical text? How's this for a start:

Shadow Wolves are creatures of pure shadow. According to legend, they were called into being by powerful magic users, and have since roamed free and multiplied. While shadow wolves avoid highly illuminated areas if they can, they are not particularly vulnerable to bright light.

A shadow wolf is between 2 and 3 feet tall at the shoulder.
*
Combat*
Shadow wolves prefer to sneak up to a victim and bite them, then retreat and wait for their fading venom to take effect.


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## Cleon (Jul 16, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated with the "but".




Gah! We forgot to add the Strength bonus to the Strangle Vines' Strangling DCs - they should be DC12 Reflex, DC16 Strength/Escape Artist.


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## freyar (Jul 16, 2010)

Shadow wolf description and tactics are looking good.

We'll have to get Shade to fix the homebrews there...


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## Cleon (Jul 16, 2010)

freyar said:


> Shadow wolf description and tactics are looking good.




So they're pretty well finished then?


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## freyar (Jul 18, 2010)

I guess so!


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## Shade (Jul 19, 2010)

Updated.  Finished?


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## freyar (Jul 19, 2010)

Seems like it.


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## Cleon (Jul 19, 2010)

Can't see anything to stop us releasing them into the darkness.


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## Mortis (Jul 21, 2010)

Looks good to me.

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Sep 2, 2010)

Let's emphasize the "O" in OD&D...

*YAKSHAS "WEAKER DEMONS OF INDIA"*
Armor Class -- 2
Move: 9/24
Hit Points: 50
Magic Ability: (See Below) 
Fighter Ability: As Stone Giant 
Psionic Ability: Class 6 

Similar to the Rakshasas but much weaker in power having the abilities of efreets and djinns as per D&D. 

Originally appeared in Supplement IV: Gods, Demigods, Heroes (1976).

Yaksha - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Yaksha Kingdom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A few bits of interest from those articles that might inspire powers:



> In Hindu, Jain, and Buddhist mythology, the yakṣa has a dual personality. On the one hand, a yakṣa may be an inoffensive nature-fairy, associated with woods and mountains; but there is also a darker version of the yakṣa, which is a kind of ghost(Bhuta) that haunts the wilderness and waylays and devours travelers, similar to the rakṣasas.




This supports a variety of alignments.



> The yakṣas may have originally been the tutelary gods of forests and villages, and were later viewed as the steward deities of the earth and the wealth buried beneath.






> In Indian art, male yakṣas are portrayed either as fearsome warriors or as portly, stout and dwarf-like. Female yakṣas, known as yakṣiṇīs, are portrayed as beautiful young women with happy round faces and full breasts and hips.






> In the state of Kerala, in South India, Yakshis are depicted as enchantresses.




Sorcerous casting like a rakshasa?



> The Yakshas, milking the Earth, got the power of disappearance at will




Invisibility?



> When the spirit of Yakshas enters into the system of a human being by some accident, he loses his reason immediately, and such a spirit is called the Yaksha spirit.


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## Cleon (Sep 2, 2010)

I think we'd better follow the fierce warrior dwarf version if we're going for a Yaksha that resembles the Supplement IV stats.

Native Outsider rather than Fey I suppose.

We'd better consider the OD&D stats for Stone Giants, Djinni, Efreets and Rakshasas, since they're all mentioned in the Yaksha entry:

*DJINN*
AC: 5
MOVE: 9/24
HD: 7+1
% in Lair: Nil
Treasure: Nil

All Djinn are aerial creatures and have not the powers typically credited them in fairy tales. They fight as Giants with a -1 as far as damage is concerned, thus doing from 1-11 points of damage when hitting. They can carry up to 6,000 Gold Pieces in weight, walking or flying (the latter for short periods only). They can create soft goods and wooden objects of permanence, but metallic items last but a short time when created by them (the harder the metal the shorter the life), so that Djinn-Gold lasts but one day. They can create illusions which will remain until dispelled by touch or magic, and they need not concentrate upon the illusion to maintain them. They can form a whirlwind 1" base diameter, 2" top diameter, and 3" in height which otherwise is like that of an Air Elemental. Djinn are also able to become invisible or assume gaseous form.

*EFREET*
AC: 3
MOVE: 9/24
HD: 10
% in Lair: Nil
Treasure: Nil

These creatures are similar to the Djinn, but their basis is in fire and they tend to be Chaotic. Their fabled home is the City of Brass. They are enemies of the Djinn. The Efreet are otherwise like Djinn, with damage scored equal to that done by a Giant (two dice, 2-12 points), and they can carry up to 10,000 Gold Pieces weight. In addition, they can create a Wall of Fire and they can become incendiaries. They will serve for 1001 days.

*GIANTS*
#APP: 1-8
AC: 4
 MOVE: 12
 HD: 8-12+2 [_Stone Giants have 9+2_]
% in Lair: 30%
 Treasure: 5,000 G.P. + Type E

As stated in CHAINMAIL, Giants act as mobile light catapults with a 20" range. Due to their huge weapons all Giants will score two dice of damage when hitting an opponent. Wandering Giants will carry from 1,000 to 6,000 Gold Pieces with them in their usual copious shoulder sack. Note that there can be many types of Giants including the following:

Giant Type: Stone Giant
Hit Dice: 9
Lair is: Cave
Approx. Size: 15'
Unusual Characteristic: Throw as heavy catapult

All the above are from _Monsters & Treasures_. I could only find an OD&D version of the Rakshasa in _Strategic Review #5_, but it's by Mr Gygax so I think it's OK:

*RAKSHASAS*
(f. Rakshasi)
Number Appearing 1-4
Armor Class -4
Move 12”
Hit Dice 7
% in Lair 20%
Treasure Type F
2 claws 1-3 pts. each, bite for 2-5 pts.
Highly Intelligent
Only Magical Weapons can Harm
Alignment = C

Known first in India, these evil spirits encased in flesh are spreading. They are fond of a diet of human meat, and as masters of illusion they can easily gain this end. Rakshasas are able to employ ESP and then create the illusion of what those who have encountered then deem friendly, and they then withhold attack until their prey can be taken off-guard. Although capable of using weapons, they prefer to attack with their claws and teeth. Rakshasas are also capable of using both Magic-User’s spells (up to 3rd level) and Cleric’s spells (1st level). It is not affected by spells under the 8th level. Rakshasas cannot be harmed by non-magical weapons, magical weapons below +3 do but one-half damage, but hits by crossbow bolts blessed by a Cleric kill them. If more than 1 Rakshasa is encountered in its lair the group will be a male and 1 or more females.


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## Cleon (Sep 2, 2010)

Now looking at those OD&D Monsters they aren't that different in their essentials from the AD&D versions.

Of the powers listed, the Djinni's _invisibility_ illusions and create objects are the powers I want to adopt. I can't see it having the other Genie-powers, like whirlwind or wall of fire, even though the entry says it has the powers of a Djinn and Efreet.

They do seem more physically powerful than a Rakshasa, with Stone Giant fighting ability. That suggests they have 9 Hit Dice, which fits reasonably well with their 50 hp.

Any preference for what size they are? I'm thinking Medium.

What about ability scores?

Base the physical ones on a downsized Stone Giant and mental on a Rakshasa, but drop Charisma by 2 since they aren't as magically powerful?

*Yaksha:* Str 19, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 13, Wis 13, Cha 15


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## Cleon (Sep 3, 2010)

Further on the Yaksha, I'm thinking 9 HD is too much for them, no matter that it fits with the "Fights like OD&D Stone Giants" bit.

They're supposedly weaker than Rakshasa, so shouldn't they have less Hit Dice? I'm thinking 6 HD, like a Jann. If we do that I'd like to increase the Con to 19, so they have around the 50 hp of the original. Besides, if they're dwarf-like creatures they ought to be tough!

We can have them advance to Large size, which'll give them the same physical stats as Stone Giants. That seems a good way of covering both ends!

Armor Class is 2 worse than a Rakshasa, so I'd give them a NA 2 less than a Rakshasa's +9. I think Damage Reduction X/magic is appropriate, but I could be persuaded otherwise. They should probably have Spell Resistance too, just not as much as Rakshasas!

Weapon or slam attacks I guess. Let's say 2 slams like a Genie.  Greatclub would fit the "fights as a Stone Giant" bit, but I'm tempted  to give them a martial weapon. Perhaps a Greatax?

I'm also thinking they should be able to take on the form of human(oids) and animals, since I vaguely recall tales of them shapechanging into men or beasts to delude folk.

Finally, I favour "Always chaotic" for alignment, as that covers the full range from helpful (CG), indifferent (CN) and maneating (CE) nature-spirits.

Putting it together I get something like:

*Yaksha*
Size/Type: Medium Outsider (Native)
Hit Dice: 6d8+24 (51 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 20 (+3 Dex, +7 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 17
Base Attack/Grapple:  +6/+10
Attack: Weapon +10 melee (xdx+4 or xdx+6) or slam  +10 melee (1d4+4) or rock +10 ranged (1d10+6)
Full Attack: Weapon +10 melee (xdx+4 or xdx+6) or 2 slams  +10 melee (1d4+4) or rock +10 ranged (1d10+6)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Rock throwing, spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: Alternate form, [damage reduction 10/magic?], darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, rock catching, [spell resistance CR+13?]
Saves: Fort +9, Ref +8, Will +6
Abilities: Str 19, Dex 17, Con 19, Int 13, Wis 13, Cha 15 	
Skills: 9 at 9 ranks
Feats: 3
Environment: Warm forests and hills ?
Organization: Solitary or family (X-X) or clan (X-X) ?
Challenge Rating: 6?
Treasure: Standard coins; double goods; standard items ?
Alignment: Always chaotic
Advancement: 7-12 HD (Medium); 13-18 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: +7

*Alternate Form (Su):* A yaksha can assume any animal or humanoid  form of its own size or smaller as a standard action three times per  day. The yaksha can remain in its animal or humanoid form until it  chooses to assume a new one or return to its natural form. 

*Rock Throwing (Ex):* Yakshas are accomplished rock throwers and receive a +1 racial bonus on attack rolls when throwing rocks. A yaksha of at least Medium size can hurl rocks weighing 20 pounds each (Tiny objects) up to five range increments, with a range increment of 180 feet. It uses both hands when throwing a rock. A Large yaksha can hurl rocks of 40 to 50 pounds each (Small objects). 

*Rock Catching (Ex):* A yaksha can catch Small or Medium rocks and projectiles of similar shape, a Large yaksha can also catch Large rocks.

Once per round, a yaksha that would normally be hit by a rock can make a Reflex save to catch it as a free action. The DC is 15 for a Small rock, 20 for a Medium one, and 25 for a Large one. (If the projectile provides a magical bonus on attack rolls, the DC increases by that amount.) The yaksha must be ready for and aware of the attack in order to make a rock catching attempt. Yaksha have a +4 racial bonus on Reflex saves when attempting to catch a thrown rock. 

*Spell-Like Abilities (Sp):*—_invisibility_ (self only); 1/day—_create food and water_, _create wine_ (as create water, but wine instead), _major creation_ (created vegetable matter is permanent), _persistent image_ (DC 15), _wind walk_. Once per day, a yaksha can assume _gaseous form_ (as the spell) for up to 1 hour. Caster level 18th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.


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## Cleon (Sep 3, 2010)

Oh, one other thing.

The above stats may only represent a male Yaksha.

The females appear to be a lot less martial, with more powers of illusion and enchantment powers. We may need separate stats for them.


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## Shade (Sep 3, 2010)

Wow!  It's as if you were waiting for these to come along.  



Cleon said:


> Oh, one other thing.
> 
> The above stats may only represent a male Yaksha.
> 
> The females appear to be a lot less martial, with more powers of illusion and enchantment powers. We may need separate stats for them.




Yes.  In fact, I'd prefer we make them a separate entry altogether using the name "yaksini" as above.


For the DR, I'd prefer something more interesting than /magic.  The rakshasa has "good and piercing".  How about lawful, or lawful and some other damage type (slashing bludgeoning)?

SR equal to CR+13 sounds fine.

Why low-light vision?  It's not outsider standard, and rakshasas don't have it.

I'm not sure about advancement.  Rakshasas advance by character class, so it might be worth doing the same here.

Added to Homebrews.


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## Cleon (Sep 3, 2010)

Shade said:


> Wow!  It's as if you were waiting for these to come along.




No, I just had too much time on my hands.



Shade said:


> Yes.  In fact, I'd prefer we make them a separate entry altogether using the name "yaksini" as above.




Agreed.



Shade said:


> For the DR, I'd prefer something more interesting than /magic.  The rakshasa has "good and piercing".  How about lawful, or lawful and some other damage type (slashing bludgeoning)?




Well I'm not sure how much mythological support that would have. I'd be willing to argue they shouldn't have any DR at all.

Still, if given the choice I'd prefer magic and bludgeoning since it means they can beat each other up with their fists or greatclubs (assuming we settle on greatclubs for their weapon).



Shade said:


> SR equal to CR+13 sounds fine.




It sounded fine to me too.



Shade said:


> Why low-light vision?  It's not outsider standard, and rakshasas don't have it.




I just stuck that in because Stone Giants have it, helps make them different from Rakshasas.



Shade said:


> I'm not sure about advancement.  Rakshasas advance by character class, so it might be worth doing the same here.
> 
> Added to Homebrews.




I'd prefer to keep the Advancing to Large, so they can gain the size, strength and fighting ability of a Stone Giant. Besides, it's not uncommon in Indian mythology to have supernatural creatures able to achieve a giant size.


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## Cleon (Sep 3, 2010)

Oh, one other thing. I'm wondering about removing the rock catching and just giving them rock throwing.


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## Shade (Sep 7, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Well I'm not sure how much mythological support that would have. I'd be willing to argue they shouldn't have any DR at all.
> 
> Still, if given the choice I'd prefer magic and bludgeoning since it means they can beat each other up with their fists or greatclubs (assuming we settle on greatclubs for their weapon).




I like that.  



Cleon said:


> I just stuck that in because Stone Giants have it, helps make them different from Rakshasas.




Stone giants only have it as a trait common to all giants.  I'm not sure the ties are that strong between yakshas and stone giants to dig that deep.  Let's leave it off unless a good flavor reason arises.



Cleon said:


> I'd prefer to keep the Advancing to Large, so they can gain the size, strength and fighting ability of a Stone Giant. Besides, it's not uncommon in Indian mythology to have supernatural creatures able to achieve a giant size.




I can live with that.  Let's just add an "...or by character class" rider.



Cleon said:


> Oh, one other thing. I'm wondering about removing the rock catching and just giving them rock throwing.




I wouldn't mind that.   In fact, I could do without throwing as well.


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## Cleon (Sep 8, 2010)

Shade said:


> Stone giants only have it as a trait common to all giants.  I'm not sure the ties are that strong between yakshas and stone giants to dig that deep.  Let's leave it off unless a good flavor reason arises.
> 
> I can live with that.  Let's just add an "...or by character class" rider.
> 
> I wouldn't mind that.   In fact, I could do without throwing as well.




I say keep the throwing, toss the low-light vision.

Adding "by character class" is OK by me.


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## Shade (Sep 8, 2010)

Updated.

I'm thinking we should go with change shape, rather than alternate form, to be consistent with rakshasas.

Change Shape (Su): A rakshasa can assume any humanoid form, or revert to its own form, as a standard action. In humanoid form, a rakshasa loses its claw and bite attacks (although it often equips itself with weapons and armor instead). A rakshasa remains in one form until it chooses to assume a new one. A change in form cannot be dispelled, but the rakshasa reverts to its natural form when killed. A true seeing spell reveals its natural form.

Skills: A rakshasa has a +4 racial bonus on Bluff and Disguise checks.

*When using change shape, a rakshasa gains an additional +10 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks.


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## Cleon (Sep 8, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> I'm thinking we should go with change shape, rather than alternate form, to be consistent with rakshasas.
> 
> ...




That's fine by me. Having them be the same as the SRD Rakshasa makes good sense.

Besides, if I was actually running them I'm not sure I could be bothered applying the difference between the two powers.


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## Shade (Sep 9, 2010)

Updated.

Skills: 9 at 9 ranks
Most forms of rakshasa have Bluff, Concentration, Intimidate, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot

Feats: 3
Rakashas feats vary widely from type to type, to better fit their niche
These guys strike me as Power Attackers.  Maybe Weapon Focus and Quicken SLA (invisibility) as well?


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## Cleon (Sep 10, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Skills: 9 at 9 ranks
> Most forms of rakshasa have Bluff, Concentration, Intimidate, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot




These aren't Rakshasa's you know.

Since they're "secretive nature spirits" (well, in some versions) I think they should have Hide, Knowledge (nature), Listen, Move Silently, Spot and Survival. They don't need much in Hide since they've got _invisibility_.

Concentration and Intimidate also fit their role as "fearsome magical warriors".

Sense Motive is OK too.

That's 9 skills, but I think we should add another skill or two and transfer some points from Hide (and possibly Survival) for said skill(s).



Shade said:


> Feats: 3
> Rakashas feats vary widely from type to type, to better fit their niche
> These guys strike me as Power Attackers.  Maybe Weapon Focus and Quicken SLA (invisibility) as well?




I find those an agreeable selection...

*Feats:* Power Attack, Quicken Spell-Like Ability (invisibility), Weapon Focus (greatclub)


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## Shade (Sep 10, 2010)

Let's go with Bluff.  They're quite chaotic, after all, and already get a racial bonus on it.

Updated.

We seem to have missed their fly speed:


> Move: 9/24




Their movement is identical to a djinn, so Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), fly 60 ft. (perfect)?

Or shall we save flight for the females?

Organization: Solitary, family (xdx plus xdx yaksini), or clan (xdx plus xdx yaksini)

Challenge Rating: 6?

Level Adjustment: +7?

A yaksha is about the same height and weight as a dwarf?

Yakshas speak Common, Infernal, and Undercommon?


----------



## Cleon (Sep 11, 2010)

Shade said:


> Let's go with Bluff.  They're quite chaotic, after all, and already get a racial bonus on it.
> 
> Updated.
> 
> ...




I like fly for both.



Shade said:


> Organization: Solitary, family (xdx plus xdx yaksini), or clan (xdx plus xdx yaksini)




I'd use similar numbers as Stone Giants - "gang (2-5), band (6-9 plus 35% noncombatants), hunting/raiding/trading  party (6-9 plus 1 elder), or tribe (21-30 plus 35% noncombatants plus  1-3 elders ".

Organization: Solitary, band (2-5), family (2-5 plus 2-5 yaksini plus 25% chance of 1-2 noncombatant children), hunting/raiding/trading  party (6-9), or clan (10-15 plus 10-15 yaksini plus 25% chance of 1-6 noncombatant children)



Shade said:


> Challenge Rating: 6?




Yes, they're pretty tough for their HD.



Shade said:


> Level Adjustment: +7?
> 
> A yaksha is about the same height and weight as a dwarf?
> 
> Yakshas speak Common, Infernal, and Undercommon?




I'd say LA +6. Their special abilities are more on a par with Djinn than Rakshasa.

Height & weights OK.

Languages are a bit off - they're semi-divine earth/nature spirits, not fiends! Besides, they're chaotic so should talk to demons more than devils.

"Yakshi speak Common, Sylvan and and one alignment language (Abyssal or Celestial)."?


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## Shade (Sep 13, 2010)

Updated.   Any suggestions for description and flavor text?   I'm not getting a good feel for them based upon the limited information available.


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## freyar (Sep 14, 2010)

Can't say I have a great feel for these, either.  I guess I'd play up the chaotic bit.


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## Cleon (Sep 14, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.   Any suggestions for description and flavor text?   I'm not getting a good feel for them based upon the limited information available.




Well from what I could tell the ancient Indian variety just look like sturdily built humans, maybe a bit shorter than average or with an unusual skin colour (yellow, pink, red, blue, orange, purple _et cetera_).

It appears that further east (i.e. Singapore or Thailand) Yaksha havee on a more forbidden aspect, with beastial heads thay sport googly-eyes, huge ears and tusks from its lower jaw. These "demon" or "guardian" yakshas have strikingly coloured skin too.

The creatures we're converting is a "weaker demon" and "similar to the Rakshasas", so I think it makes sense to have use the beast-headed  "demon" version so they resemble Rakshasas. We can note that they often use their alternate form to look more human.

How's this.

_The being has a body like a man but its head is that of a bizarre monster, with flat but powerful jaws, tusks jutting from its lower lip, flapping ears like an elephant and goggling eyes.__ While the rest of his body looks human it is extraordinarily __sturdy and muscular, __almost dwarf-like in proportions__.__ His __skin is a __bright and uniform color_.

Yakshas are male nature spirits distantly related to rakshasas, the females of their race are the yakshini. Yaksha come in a wide range of colors - blue, green, orange and red are the most common, but black, purple, yellow or many other shades have been recorded. Most yakshas are benevolent or at worst neutral in alignment, only attacking those who despoil their wilderness home or threaten their kin. Evil yakshas can be maneaters as bloodthirsty as a rakshasa. Even good yakshas are fierce and unpredictable creatures.

Friendly yakshas habitually use their change shape power to make their heads look human while retaining their pastel skin color. They know that many races find their bestial faces disturbing, and may even consider their natural appearance an embarrassment. Yakshas are on good terms with many sylvan creatures and are known to associate with nagas, but even evil yashas mostly shun their rakshasa relatives due to the irreconcilable differences in their alignment.

Yakshas speak Common, Sylvan and and one alignment language (Abyssal or Celestial).


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## Shade (Sep 14, 2010)

I like that.  We can make the female enchantresses look more like the Indian version.

Updated.

Got anything for tactics?


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## Cleon (Sep 15, 2010)

Shade said:


> I like that.  We can make the female enchantresses look more like the Indian version.
> 
> Updated.
> 
> Got anything for tactics?




Well I just whipped this up...

*Combat*
A yaksha will usually be invisible when encountered. If they disapprove of their visitors, good or neutral yakshas will try to drive them away with mysterious noises, shouted warnings, frightening illusions and "warning shots" with hurled rocks. Evil yakshas will simply try to kill (and maybe eat) unwanted intruders as expediently as possible.

Yakshas are ferocious warriors but can be cunning too, they use magical  trickery, shape-changing and traps to deal with opponents almost as  often as their rocks and clubs. For example, they may offer opponents a feast created with _create food and water _and _create wine_ in the hope of making their enemies gorged and drunken.

In battle, yaksha prefer to repeatedly ambush opponents with thrown rocks, using _invisibility_ to withdraw and reposition themselves between each attack. They may negotiate with a stronger opponent to agree a ceasefire, or even give up territory or tribute, but usually fight to the death rather than be captured.


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## Shade (Sep 15, 2010)

Updated.

On to the yasini!

Should they be an underbar to the yaksha, or a separate entry altogether?


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## Cleon (Sep 16, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> On to the yasini!
> 
> Should they be an underbar to the yaksha, or a separate entry altogether?




Separate entry I think, and give them somewhat different powers to their blokes.

We should call them Yakshini, not Yasini, since we're using the "sh" spelling for their mates.

Better change the Yaksha's Org line appropriately:

Organization: Solitary, band (2-5), family (2-5 plus 2-5 yakshini plus  25% chance of 1-2 noncombatant children), hunting/raiding/trading party  (6-9), or clan (10-15 plus 10-15 yakshini plus 25% chance of 1-6  noncombatant children)

There's also a typo in it - "but even evil *yashas*" instead of "evil yakshas".


----------



## Shade (Sep 16, 2010)

Fixed.

So, same HD for the yakshini?

Make them sorcerers of a level equal to their Hit Dice?

Flip the Str and Int and Con and Wis scores?   That would give us Str 13, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 19, Wis 13, Cha 19.

Drop rock throwing.   Tinker with the SLAs?


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## Cleon (Sep 17, 2010)

Shade said:


> Fixed.
> 
> So, same HD for the yakshini?
> 
> Make them sorcerers of a level equal to their Hit Dice?




Sure why not, it gives them a tie with Rakshasas.



Shade said:


> Flip the Str and Int and Con and Wis scores?   That would give us Str 13, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 19, Wis 13, Cha 19.




I'm not aware of any mythological support for them being super-geniuses, although they are extremely attractive. I'd rather swamp the Str and Charisma plus the Dexterity and Constitution:

*Yakshini #1:* Str 15, Dex 19, Con 17, Int 13, Wis 13, Cha 19.



Shade said:


> Drop rock throwing.   Tinker with the SLAs?




I agree we should drop the rock throwing. They probably have weaker slam attacks too - 1d3+2 damage?

As for the SLAs, I think we can leave them as they are. We can use their sorcerer spellcasting to give them thematically appropriate magic like _charm person,_ _suggestion_ and illusion spells.


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## Shade (Sep 17, 2010)

That'll work.

Added to Homebrews.

I think they need a less "heavy" weapon than a greatclub.   Sickle, perhaps?

Keep DR the same?

Spells: A yakshini casts spells as a 6th-level sorcerer. She favors spells of the enchantment and illusion schools.

Typical Sorcerer Spells Known (spells per day 6/7/6/4, save DC 14 + spell level): 
0—7; 
1st—charm person, 3 more; 
2nd—2; 
3rd—suggestion.


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## freyar (Sep 18, 2010)

Sickle is good, and so is the same DR.  I'll see if I can work on the spell list over the weekend.


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## Cleon (Sep 18, 2010)

Shade said:


> That'll work.
> 
> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> ...




Sickle's good. They're nature spirits, so something rustic seems appropriate. Maybe have them make a secondary slam attack with their off hand?

For the spells, How about these:

0—_daze, dancing lights, detect magic, detect poison, mage hand, read magic, resistance_; 
1st—_charm person, silent image, sleep, ventriloquism_; 
2nd—_blur_, _touch of idiocy_; 
3rd—_suggestion_.


----------



## Shade (Sep 20, 2010)

I'm not real fond of the off-hand slam attack, since I envision them as more "finesse" fighters.  I could be persuased to two-weapon fighting with paired sickles, though.  

The spell list looks good.

Updated.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 20, 2010)

Shade said:


> I'm not real fond of the off-hand slam attack, since I envision them as more "finesse" fighters.  I could be persuased to two-weapon fighting with paired sickles, though.
> 
> The spell list looks good.
> 
> Updated.




TWF with sickles isn't going to be very effective, though. Would we be better off switching to a quarterstaff?


----------



## freyar (Sep 21, 2010)

Why are two sickles worse than a quarterstaff?  They have the same damage, critical, and even total weight.  The only difference is damage type.


----------



## Shade (Sep 21, 2010)

Indeed.  Do tell.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 22, 2010)

Shade said:


> Indeed.  Do tell.




I was thinking more the -4/-8 TWF attack penalty makes that option unrewarding, and a quarterstaff is better than a single sickle since it gets a 2-handed damage bonus.


----------



## freyar (Sep 22, 2010)

Well, that's if you're using a quarterstaff 2-handed but not as two weapons, right?  Do you get the 2-handed Str bonus when using it as two weapons?

Besides, sickles are light (I believe that's how quarterstaffs work as double weapons, too) and therefore finesseable.  So take TWF as one of the last two feats, so the penalty is -2 on each sickle.  And take Weapon Finesse as the last feat to get the +4 from Dex instead of the +2 from Str, and it looks ok.  That gets you (still) the +8 attack bonus for each sickle.


----------



## Shade (Sep 22, 2010)

The way freyar described it is the way I always understood double weapons and TWF to work.

Even if we skip the TWF route, I'd still prefer the sickle, despite the lower damage output, as these are primarily enchantresses and illusionists, not melee brawlers.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 22, 2010)

Shade said:


> The way freyar described it is the way I always understood double weapons and TWF to work.
> 
> Even if we skip the TWF route, I'd still prefer the sickle, despite the lower damage output, as these are primarily enchantresses and illusionists, not melee brawlers.




I'd rather go the single weapon route. Making her a semi-effective TWF combatant will burn up most of her feats for little benefit.

As an Outsider the Yakshini is proficient in martial weapons, so we could give her a handax or kukri instead.

Hmm, I quite like the idea of a kukri...


----------



## Shade (Sep 22, 2010)

...and a kukri is better than a sickle how?


----------



## Cleon (Sep 23, 2010)

Shade said:


> ...and a kukri is better than a sickle how?




It isn't better mechanically, I liked it better because it's a weapon native to the Indian subcontinent.


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## Shade (Sep 23, 2010)

Alright, I'm convinced.  (The poor sickle...always thwarted.  )

Updated.

Skills: 9 at 9 ranks

Feats: Quicken Spell-Like Ability (invisibility), 2 more


----------



## freyar (Sep 23, 2010)

Well, I still think Weapon Finesse would be helpful for them, and a Spell Focus (illusion) or (enchantment) would too.


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## Shade (Sep 24, 2010)

That sounds good, and I think I prefer enchantment to illusion.

For the skills, maybe Bluff, Concentration, Disguise, Hide, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (nature), Move Silently, Spellcraft, Use Magic Device?


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## freyar (Sep 24, 2010)

Those skills appeal.


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## Cleon (Sep 24, 2010)

Shade said:


> That sounds good, and I think I prefer enchantment to illusion.
> 
> For the skills, maybe Bluff, Concentration, Disguise, Hide, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (nature), Move Silently, Spellcraft, Use Magic Device?




Those feats are fine by me...

Feats: Quicken Spell-Like Ability (invisibility), Spell Focus (enchantment), Weapon Finesse

As for the skills, I think they need Listen and Spot in there too. Maybe cut UMD and Knowledge (arcana)?

Bluff, Concentration, Disguise, Hide, Knowledge (nature), Listen, Move Silently, Spellcraft, Spot


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## freyar (Sep 25, 2010)

Those skills work for me, too.  Listen and Spot do seem a bit more important.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 25, 2010)

freyar said:


> Those skills work for me, too.  Listen and Spot do seem a bit more important.




Sounds like we're agreed then.

The current Challenge Rating 6 and advancement still seems to suit them.

What LA do you think? Somewhere around +4 or +5?


----------



## Shade (Sep 27, 2010)

CR 6 and LA +5 seem apt.

Updated.

Anyone wanna work up description, flavor text, and tactics?


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## freyar (Sep 28, 2010)

I'll allow Cleon to do that.


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## Cleon (Sep 29, 2010)

freyar said:


> I'll allow Cleon to do that.




Let's see...

_A beautiful woman with an uncannily colored skin and hair. She wears little apart from jewelery and a few strips of fine cloth. A heavy, curved knife hangs at her side.
_
Yakshinis are the female counterparts of the yaksha. Unlike the latter beings, yakshini do not have a bestial head in their true form, but would be taken nubile young human woman if it wasn't for the colour of their skin and hair. A yakshini come in the same wide range of colors as a yaksha - blue, green, orange and red are the most common, but black, purple, yellow or many other shades have been recorded.

Yakshini have a similar range of temperament to their yaksha mates, mostly being benevolent or neutral toward humanoids. A few are malevolent or even anthropophagous. While evil yakshas usually use savage violence to harm their victims, malevolent yakshini tend to use deception and sorcery.

A typical yakshini is about 5 feet tall and weighs 75 to 100 pounds.

Yakshinis speak Common and Sylvan, and either Abyssal or Celestial, depending upon their alignment (chaotic neutral yakshas choose one or the other).


----------



## Shade (Sep 29, 2010)

Thanks!   Updated.  Are we finished here?


----------



## Cleon (Sep 29, 2010)

Shade said:


> Thanks!   Updated.  Are we finished here?




I was thinking of adding to the tactics a bit, something like.

Yakshini are calculating foes, preferring to turn _invisible_ and observe their foes for some time before deciding on a course of attack. A hostile yakshini usually disguises herself in a harmless seeming shape such as a stray dog, an old granny or a seductive maiden. They usually try to weaken their opponents, either by luring a single victim away or plying a group with magically created wine, before attacking with enchantments to enslave or incapacitate her opponents (i.e. _charm person_, _touch of idiocy_ and _sleep_). Yakshini can fight effectively with kukris or other weapons, but would rather only use their blade to finish off victims defeated by sorcery.


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## Shade (Sep 29, 2010)

Updated.  Finito?


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## freyar (Oct 1, 2010)

Looks good.


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## Cleon (Oct 3, 2010)

freyar said:


> Looks good.




They're done methinks.


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## Shade (Oct 5, 2010)

*Yowler*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any land
FREQUENCY: Very Rare 
ORGANIZATION: Solitary or Pack
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Night 
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Semi- (2 - 4) 
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic Evil 
NO. APPEARING: 2d4
ARMOR CLASS: 0 
MOVEMENT: 15, Fl 27 (C)
HIT DICE: 3 + 3 
THAC0: 17
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2d4 (bite)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Baying 
SPECIAL DEFENCES: Hit only by silver or magical weapons
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil 
SIZE: M (4' long)
MORALE: Fanatic (18) 
XP VALUE: 1,400

Yowlers look like huge, well-muscled hounds. Their short fur is as dull and black as chimney soot. Though a yowler's overall appearance is canine, its expression can be decidedly human, and its wrinkled ears could easily be mistaken for stubby horns. A yowler's eyes glow an infernal red; its teeth are yellow and well-designed for tearing flesh from unfortunate victims.

Combat: A yowler's baying is a horrible sound, clearly audible at distances of up to a mile and carrying considerably farther under the right conditions. Creatures within 90 feet of a baying yowler must make a successful saving throw vs. spell or flee in panic until they can no longer hear the sound. If five or more yowlers bay at once, the saving throw is made with a -1 penalty, with the penalty increasing by I point for each additional yowler beyond the fifth no a maximum of - 10). Creatures who make a successful saving throw are immune to that particular pack's baying for the remainder of the encounter. When a pack of yowlers attacks a group of foes, the yowlers begin their bay, hoping to cause their enemies to scatter in fear. If some opponents flee, the bulk of the pack use their flying abilities to chase down and gang up on one or two panicked targets while a few remain behind to distract nonpanicked opponents. As long as there is at least one panicked quarry. one or more yowlers will  ontinue to bay rather than attack.

Panicked characters flee at top speed in a random direction, but they always move away from the baying. Fleeing characters do not defend themselves unless cornered. In that case, they fight normally but turn to flee again at the first opportunity. A fleeing character drops any items held 50% of the time, Magical silence blocks the effect, but the victim will flee in terror once again if the sound returns. 

In melee, yowlers attack by biting for 2d4 points of damage. Their flying abilities enable them to dart in for swooping attacks while remaining out of their foes' reach most of the time. 

Yowlers are harmed only by silver or magical weapons. These weapons inflict damagc equal only to the weapon's magical bonus. For example, a dagger + 1 inflicts I point of damage, and a two-handed sword +2 inflicts 2 points 4 damage. A silver weapon inflicts 1 point of damage. Damage bonuses due to the wielder's Strength or specialization do not apply.

Habitat/Society: Fortunately, yowlers inhabit only the most desolate wilderness. They often lair in dismal caves where they rest during the day. A yowler pack usually claims a territory of about 200 square miles. They tend to attack any warm-blooded creature that enters the territory and ferociously drive away other carnivores, including other yowlers, whenever they appear.

Tales are sometimes told of evil creatures using yowlers as hunting or guard beasts, but even yowler pups are stubborn, hostile, and nearly impossible to train. They cannot be truly domesticated and will run away or turn on their masters if given the slightest chance.

Yowler packs are loosely organized along the same lines as wolf packs, with one dominant, breeding pair and several junior members who act as expendable scouts, hunters, and fighters. The dominant members are frequently subjected to challenges from the junior members, and the loser in a dominance struggle is usually killed, though some manage to flee. Lone yowler encounters are usually with individuals that have escaped death after a dominance fight.

The dominant pair of yowlers aggressively defend their pups, and the additional pack members are responsible for bringmg hod to the pups and their mother. When a yowler pack grows too large to support itself in the available territory, several juniors will break off to establish a new territory and form a new pack.

Ecology: Yowlers can eat any type of meat, but demihuman flesh is their favorite. They will scavenge if necessary, but few edible creatures within their territories get the chance to die naturally.

Originally appeared in AC9 - Creature Catalogue (1986).


----------



## Mortis (Oct 6, 2010)

A few thoughts (in no particular order)

First a question is this just a yeth hound with a different name? That's what I assumed when I was doing the Consolidated Creature Index. 

That said

Magical Beast seems a given.

Str 16, Dex 15, Con 16, Int 3, Wis 13, Cha 8
(Mostly an average of wolf and worg with a couple of tweaks).

Given the maximum penalty to the save vs the bay a pack may have a maximum of 15 adult yowlers - unless of course any additional yowlers don't have an affect.

I would assume that we would use the standard rules for panicked character.

As it stands they only seem to take 1-5 pts damage (the weapon's magical enhancement). Not sure how silver works here as it doesn't give a magical bonus  in fact IIRC silver weapons have a -1 damage penalty. 

Should we just stick to standard 3.5 DR or give 'em something a bit special? If standard I would suggest Magic AND Silver rather than OR. It's a bit powerful for their probable CR but still...

If we go for something more in keeping with the original - they should be vulnerable to favored enemy and bane (magical beast).

That's all for now.

Mortis


----------



## Shade (Oct 6, 2010)

Mortis said:


> First a question is this just a yeth hound with a different name? That's what I assumed when I was doing the Consolidated Creature Index.




They are quite similar, but different enough to deserve conversion.  For starters, like you I see these as magical beasts, while yeths are outsiders.  They are also less intelligent.



Mortis said:


> Str 16, Dex 15, Con 16, Int 3, Wis 13, Cha 8
> (Mostly an average of wolf and worg with a couple of tweaks).




I like it, and it helps differentiate them further from yeth hounds.



Mortis said:


> Given the maximum penalty to the save vs the bay a pack may have a maximum of 15 adult yowlers - unless of course any additional yowlers don't have an affect.




I like the idea of the pack increasing the save DC, for further differentiation from yeths.



Mortis said:


> I would assume that we would use the standard rules for panicked character.




I agree.



Mortis said:


> As it stands they only seem to take 1-5 pts damage (the weapon's magical enhancement). Not sure how silver works here as it doesn't give a magical bonus  in fact IIRC silver weapons have a -1 damage penalty.
> 
> Should we just stick to standard 3.5 DR or give 'em something a bit special? If standard I would suggest Magic AND Silver rather than OR. It's a bit powerful for their probable CR but still...




DR/magic and silver appeals.  I definitely don't want to use the original mechanic...besides being fiddly, it runs counter to 3.5 design, where they got rid of varying benefits of enhancement bonuses vs. DR.


----------



## Shade (Oct 6, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.

They have outstanding AC for their HD.  Should we boost Dex a bit, so natural armor isn't ridiculously high?  Or perhaps give them a deflection bonus?

We might need to increase Cha to at least 10, since the howl is Cha-based.  Either that, or remove the "at least 5" bit to allow the save DC to begin increasing for each additional yowler.  I think I prefer this method, and Homebrews currently reflects it.



> Their flying abilities enable them to dart in for swooping attacks while remaining out of their foes' reach most of the time.




Flyby Attack?


----------



## Mortis (Oct 6, 2010)

Shade said:


> They have outstanding AC for their HD.  Should we boost Dex a bit, so natural armor isn't ridiculously high?  Or perhaps give them a deflection bonus?



Not really sure about a deflection bonus, I am willing to go to Dex 18.



> We might need to increase Cha to at least 10, since the howl is Cha-based.  Either that, or remove the "at least 5" bit to allow the save DC to begin increasing for each additional yowler.  I think I prefer this method, and Homebrews currently reflects it.



I see the bay as more of a pack ability than an effective tactic for a lone yowler. as it stands the DC against a full pack is 20.

Another point, given my view perhaps change the bit about a successful save to read '... an affected creature is immune to the same *pack's* bay for 24 hours.'



> Flyby Attack?



Given the quoted tactics absolutely.

Second feat (as a compromise for keeping the low Cha) Ability Focus (Bay)

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Oct 6, 2010)

Sounds good!   Updated.

Give 'em scent and the usual "tracking by scent" bonus of canines?

Listen 3 and Spot 3 for skills?

Should they have speech, like worgs?


----------



## Mortis (Oct 6, 2010)

Shade said:


> Give 'em scent and the usual "tracking by scent" bonus of canines?



I don't see why not.



> Listen 3 and Spot 3 for skills?



Looks good - I was going to suggest Fly 3 and Perception 3 - I guess I'm playing to much Pathfinder 



> Should they have speech, like worgs?



<edit>I'd say no, but they can understand Common</edit>

2 ft. high 80 lbs weight?
Advancement 4-6HD (Medium)

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Oct 6, 2010)

All sounds good.

Updated.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 7, 2010)

This is all looking pretty good so far.

Challenge Rating is probably 4 or so considering their bay attack, flight and impressive DR & AC.


----------



## Shade (Oct 7, 2010)

It's got a few more hp, is slightly faster, and has "and magic" on its DR, but otherwise isn't better than a yeth hound.   Plus, the yeth's got better maneuverability and the trip ability, so I'd say they're about dead even at CR 3.


----------



## Mortis (Oct 8, 2010)

Just noticed that we have the pack organisation as 2-8, given the Max DC bonus to Bay it should be 2-11 (or 15 if the minimum is 5 yowlers).

How about a compromise of 2-12 plus young?

I'll leave the Desc/Combat Tactics etc to those more capable ;-)

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Cleon (Oct 9, 2010)

Mortis said:


> Just noticed that we have the pack organisation as 2-8, given the Max DC bonus to Bay it should be 2-11 (or 15 if the minimum is 5 yowlers).




The Monstrous Compendium version had 2d4 #Appearing so I'd rather keep the Organization 2-8, although adding young to that is a good idea.


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## freyar (Oct 9, 2010)

Looking good, and I'd go with 2-12 plus 4-8 young for the pack, sure.


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## Cleon (Oct 11, 2010)

freyar said:


> Looking good, and I'd go with 2-12 plus 4-8 young for the pack, sure.




I prefer 2-8 plus 3-6 young, but it's no big deal.


----------



## Shade (Oct 18, 2010)

Updated.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 19, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.




I've just checked the _*AC9 Creature Catalogue*_ version and it's basically the same as the _*Mystara Monstrous Compendium*_ version, except for two points that appear salient: The AC9 yowler has an Intelligence of 4, and it has a #appearing of 4-16 in wilderness, 2-8 in dungeon.

Shall we incorporate this increasing in to 4 (not that it makes any difference) and expanding the organisation:

Organization: Solitary, pair, family (2-8 plus 0-6 noncombative pups) or pack (4-16 plus 4-8 noncombative pups)


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## Shade (Oct 19, 2010)

Good suggestions.  Updated.


----------



## freyar (Oct 20, 2010)

I like it.  Seems done.


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## Mortis (Oct 20, 2010)

freyar said:


> I like it.  Seems done.



I agree (with both statements).

Mortis


----------



## Cleon (Oct 22, 2010)

Mortis said:


> I agree (with both statements).
> 
> Mortis




Yes, they look finished, and I didn't notice any stat errors or typos (if only I could say the same for my posts.)


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## Shade (Oct 25, 2010)

*Gargantua, Carrion Crawler*
Armor Class: 3
Hit Dice: 25*
Move: 240‘ (80’)
Flying: -
Attacks: 8
Damage: 2-5 each plus paralysis
No. Appearing: 1 (1)
Save As: Fighter: 13
Morale: 11
Treasure Type: Bx4
Alignment: Neutral
XP Value: 6,500

A gargantua is a very large variety of some normal monster. These monsters are extremely rare, the products of research of the mad wizard Gargantua. Monsters rumored to have gargantuan forms include various bugs (ant, bee, beetle, centipede, robber fly, scorpion, spider), carrion crawler, cockatrice, gargoyle, hydra, lizard man, minotaur, ogre, troll, and umber hulk. Three examples of Gargantuan creatures are given above.

Because of their incredible size, gargantuan are noisy while moving, and cannot surprise anything. They also suffer a -4 penalty to their Hit rolls when attacking mansize or smaller opponents.

The statistics for any gargantuan monster are calculated as follows:

Height: 2 times normal
Hit Dice: 8 times normal, counting each “plus” as one Hit Die added
Movement rate: 2 times normal
Damage: 4 times normal
Number Appearing: 1 (except near the Tower of Gargantua)
Save As: Fighter of equal level, 1/2 level if the monster is unintelligent
Morale: 11
Treasure Type: 4 times normal size, at 2 times normal percentages
Armor Class, Alignment, Number and type of Attacks, and normal and magical abilities are unchanged, except for regeneration (4 times normal rate). Other logical changes can be made; for example, the gargantuan carrion crawler’s tentacles are large enough to inflict damage.

Gargantuan monsters with special abilities (spells, breath weapons, etc.) are not recommended. Breath weapons, for example, would be increased in both size and damage-too-deadly an effect.

Originally appeared in D&D Companion Rules (1984).

The Rules Cyclopedia version is essentially the same.   Here's the Mystara Monstrous Compendium Appendix version...

*Gargantua, Carrion Crawler *
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Subterranean 
FREQUENCY: Very Rare 
ORGANIZATION: Solitary 
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any 
DIET: Carnivore 
INTELLIGENCE: Non- (0) 
TREASURE: Bx2 
ALIGNMENT: Neutral 
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 3 (head) / 7 (body) 
MOVEMENT: 24 
HIT DICE: 12+4 
THAC0: 7 
NO. OF ATTACKS: 8 or 1 
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 4d2 each (tentacles), or 4d2 (bite)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Paralysis, swallows whole
SPECIAL DEFENCES: Nil 
M. R: Nil 
SIZE: G (36' long) 
MORALE: Elite (14) 
XP VALUE: 9,000 

The gargantua of Mystara are extremely large and powerful specimens of other monstrous species. Such creatures horrify characters chancing upon them due to both their size and their ferocity. Those listed here are the most common forms of gargantua on Mystara. but any type of monster, creature, construct, or humanoid could have a gargantuan form, too.

Gargantua strongly resemble normal specimens of a particular monster differing only in their extreme size. For example a gargantuan troll is green and warty with a long skinny body and grimy claws, just like a regular troll. It also happens to stand approximately 20 feet tall.

Combat: In battle gargantua fight in the same manner as the normal specimens of their species. However, their great size causes them to make lots of noise while moving, so they cannot surprise anything. Gargantua that are huge (H) or larger in size also suffer a -4 penalty to their attack rolls then battling man sized (M) or smaller opponents.

Gargantuan creatures have the same number and type of attacks, Armor Class and alignment as their smaller brethren. Magical abilities likewise remain unchanged, except for regeneration (per the spell), which occurs at twice the normal rate.

Many, but not all, gargantua can swallow opponents whole on a bite attack roll of a natural 20.

Habitat/Society: The first of these creatures were the extraordinary creations of the wizard Gargantua. Such monsters have appeared across the various lands of Mystara for the past 100 years and more. It is unknown whether so Gargantus still lives in some hidden location creating even larger and stranger beings It is also unknown whether his gargantuan "children" can reproduce. although many of the most learned wizards and sages fear this is indeed the case.

Gargantua are solitary, though they may come together for mating purposes.

Ecology: Gargantua consume the same type of food as do their smaller counterparts, but they require vast numbers of calories to keep their immense bodies functioning. Their tremendous size also means they rarely live anywhere but in the most isolated of regions, only occasionally venturing into more civilized lands.

*Carrion Crawler*Unlike the normal kind, the gargantuan carrion crawler does not feed solely on carrion. Instead, this monstrous creature actively hunts for meals --although anything smaller than an elephant usually avoids its notice. Like a regular carrion crawler. the gargantuan version attacks to paralyze opponents, then tries to eat them. Unlike smaller versions, the gargantuan carrion crawler can swallow man-sized or smaller opponents whole.

Gargantuan carrrion crawlers have been spotted only in the largest underground caverns in the wilds of Mystara.


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## Shade (Oct 25, 2010)

Should we make a Gargantua template?  The OD&D/Mystaran version offered it as such.

This won't work with our previous Gargantua, though, so if we do this, I recommend calling such a template "Mystaran Gargantua".


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## Cleon (Oct 26, 2010)

Shade said:


> Should we make a Gargantua template?  The OD&D/Mystaran version offered it as such.
> 
> This won't work with our previous Gargantua, though, so if we do this, I recommend calling such a template "Mystaran Gargantua".




Yes, I was thinking that when I last looked through their stats.

Problem is, apart from increasing their size by three stages and octupling their Hit Dice there's not much too them compared to the Kara-Tur Gargantua.


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## Cleon (Oct 27, 2010)

Looking at the OD&D "template", they're only twice as tall but have eight times the HD and four times the damage.

Double height suggests one size step increase, but octuple HD suggests three size steps. Shall we average to two size steps bigger while keeping the eightfold HD increase?


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## Cleon (Oct 27, 2010)

The Mystara Monstrous Compendium "template" for 2nd edition AD&D is basically the same as the OD&D version except it uses quadruple Hit Dice and quadruple pluses instead of the OD&D Gargantua's octuple HD plus 1 HD per plus. The Mystara version also has "size: four times normal".

e.g. a gargoyle with 4+4 HD would be 36 HD as an OD&D Gargantua (eight times 4 HD plus 4 HD for its +4 hps), but 16+16 HD as a Mystaran MC Gargantua.

So, quadruple HD or octuple HD?

One size increase or two?

I'm thinking Quadruple HD and two size steps, since that's consistent with standard 3E advancement.

Although now I'm puzzled why the Mystara MC Gargantuan Troll is 20 feet tall, how is that four times normal size?


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## Shade (Oct 27, 2010)

The bigger the better, methinks.

In fact, I'm not too worried about the sizes given in the original "sample" creatures.   I'd say quadruple HD and at least Gargantuan size (they are "Gargantua", after all) works best.


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## Mortis (Oct 27, 2010)

Shade said:


> I'd say quadruple HD and at least Gargantuan size (they are "Gargantua", after all) works best.



I agree with that - you could probably get to octuple HD by either applying the template (if we go that way) to an advanced version of the creature or just advancing the gargantuan version.

BTW my vote is for the template version as that is what they basically are anyway - IIRC the gargantuan creatures shown in the rulebooks where described as 'examples'.

Regards
Mortis


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## Cleon (Oct 27, 2010)

*Mystaran Gargantua Working Draft*

Okay then, shall we have it octuple HD and three size steps then, that way a Medium sized creature will end out Gargantuan.

Let's start roughing it out:

*Mystaran Gargantua (Template)*
Mystaran gargantuas are living creatures that have been increased to enormous size by magical experimentation.

*Creating A Mystaran Gargantua*
"Mystaran Gargantua" is an acquired template that can be added to any corporeal, living creature, hereafter referred to as the base creature.

A mystaran gargantua uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here.

*Size and Type*
The base creature's type remains the same. The base creature's size increases by three size categories.

If the base creature is Huge-sized, the mystaran gargantua will be Colossal-sized with a Space of 40 ft. and a reach of 40 ft. if tall, 30 ft. if long. If the base creature is Gargantuan or larger in size, the mystaran gargantua will be Colossal-sized with a Space of 50 ft. and a reach of 50 ft. if tall, 40 ft. if long.

*Hit Dice*
Multiple the base creature's Hit Dice by 8.

*Speed*
Double the base creature's speed in all its movement modes. If the base creature can fly, its maneuverability rating drops to clumsy.

*Armor Class*
Increase the base creature's natural armor according to the *Mystaran Gargantua Modifiers Table*. This includes the improvement for the creature's size increase.

*Base Attacks*
A mystaran gargantua's Base Attack Bonus and Grapple checks are recalculated according to its increased hit dice, size and ability scores.

*Attacks*
As base creature.

*Damage*
A mystaran gargantua retains all the natural weapons, manufactured   weapons and weapon proficiencies of the base creature. The damage values  of these attacks increase according to the following table (this  includes improvement for increased size).

*Mystaran Gargantua Damage*
Old Damage (Each) -- New Damage
1 ----- 1d6 
1d2 -- 1d8
1d3 -- 2d6
1d4 -- 3d6
1d6 -- 4d6
1d8 -- 4d8
1d10- 4d10
1d12- 4d12 
2d6 -- 8d6
2d8 -- 8d8

*Special Attacks*
A mystaran gargantua creature retains the special attacks of the base  creature and  also gains the abilities and modifications described  below. The DCs of its special attacks are recalculated according to its  new hit dice and ability scores.

_Area Attacks (Ex):_  A  mystaran gargantua creature's area attacks (such as a spider's ability  to  generate webs) increase in size to gigantic proportions. Multiply  the  height, width, and length of the base creature's area attack by the  area  modifier given on the *Mystaran Gargantua Modifiers* table.

_Increased Damage (Ex):_  If the base creature has a special attack that deals hit point damage, increase this damage according to the *Mystaran Gargantua Damage*  table, or multiply by 4 if the attack does a set amount of damage (e.g.  if the base creature has an special attack doing 4 points of acid  damage the mystaran gargantua's version would do 16 acid damage.)

If the base creature has a special attack that causes ability damage or  ability drain, such as a poison bite, increase this ability damage by  the amount given in the *Mystaran Gargantua Modifiers* table.

_Swallow Whole (Ex):_  A mystaran gargantua gains a swallow whole attack if it has a bite  attack and is Gargantuan size or larger. The creature can swallow  opponents up to three size smaller than itself (i.e. up to the size of  the base creature) by making a successful grapple check. Once inside, an  opponent takes takes crushing damage equal to the creature's bite  attack plus 8 points of acid damage from the  creature's gizzard. Increase the acid damage by 4 points for every size step the mystaran gargantua is larger than Gargantua. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a  light slashing or piercing weapon to deal 25 points of damage to the  gizzard (AC 10 plus half the creature's natural armour). Once the  creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed  opponent must cut its own way out. A Gargantua's interior can hold 2  opponents of the base creature's size, 8 opponents 1 size smaller than  the base creature, 32 opponents 2 sizes smaller, and so on. 

If the base creature already has a swallow whole attack, use that  attack's  damage values or sizes (adjusted by the gargantua's greater size and Increased Damage special  ability), if the  result would be better than those given above.

_Trample (Ex):_  A mystaran gargantua gains a trample attack. It can  trample opponents smaller than itself, doing the damage given in  the *Mystaran Gargantua Modifiers* table plus 1½ times the gargantua's Strength bonus. A trampled  opponent can attempt either an  attack of opportunity at a –4 penalty or a  Reflex save (DC 10 + ½HD +  the titanic creature’s Str bonus) for half damage.

If the base creature already has a trample attack, use that attack's  damage value adjusted by the Increased Damage special ability if the  result is better than the damage of the *Mystaran Gargantua Modifiers* table.     
*
Special Qualities*
A mystaran gargantua retains all the base creature's special qualities. Any fast healing or regeneration it possesses is doubled in value.

*Saves*
A mystaran gargantua's saves are recalculated according to its increased hit dice and ability scores.

*Abilities*
A mystaran gargantua's ability scores are increased according to the *Mystaran Gargantua Modifiers Table*. This includes the improvement for the creature's size increase.

*Mystaran Gargantua Modifiers Table*
*Size of .......Natural
Base Creature . Armour **. Str . Dex . Con
* Fine............ Same ... +6 .. -2 .. --
 Diminutive...... Same .. +10 .. -2 .. +2
 Tiny ........... +2NA .. +18 .. -2 .. +6
 Small .......... +5NA .. +20 .. -2 . +10
 Medium ......... +9NA .. +24 .. -2 . +12
 Large ......... +12NA .. +24 .. -- . +12
  Huge .......... +16NA .. +24 .. -- . +12 
 Gargantuan .... +20NA .. +24 .. -- . +12 
 Colossal ...... +25NA .. +24 .. -- . +12 

*Skills*
A mystaran gargantua retains the class skills of the base creature, recalculate its skills according to its increased hit dice.

*Feats*
A mystaran gargantua will gain feats according to its increased hit dice. In addition, it gains Snatch as a bonus feat. If the mystaran gargantua has a fly speed it also gains Hover as a bonus feat.

*Environment*
As base creature.

*Organization*
Solitary?

*Challenge Rating*
?

*Treasure*
As base creature.

*Alignment*
As base creature.

*Advancement*
Multiply the Hit Dice of the base creature's advancement by eight and increase the size categories by three steps.

_Example:_ a gargoyle has 4 Hit Dice and advancement 5-6 HD (Medium); 7-12 HD (Large), so a mystaran gargantua gargoyle has 32 Hit Dice and advancement 33-48 HD (Gargantuan); 39-96 HD (Colossal).

*Level Adjustment*
—


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## Shade (Oct 27, 2010)

The Titanic Creature template in MM2 might be a good source of inspiration for this.


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## Cleon (Oct 28, 2010)

I'm thinking that rather than "The damage of its weapons increases by 4 stages" it'd be better off with a table.

*Damage*
A mystaran gargantua retains all the natural weapons, manufactured  weapons and weapon proficiencies of the base creature. The damage values of these attacks increase according to the following table (this includes improvement for increased size).

Old Damage (Each) -- New Damage
1 ----- 1d6 
1d2 -- 1d8
1d3 -- 2d6
1d4 -- 3d6
1d6 -- 4d6
1d8 -- 6d6
1d10- 6d8
1d12- 7d6 
2d6 -- 8d6
2d8 -- 8d8



Shade said:


> The Titanic Creature template in MM2 might be a good source of inspiration for this.




Let me just check that template...

I like everything in the Special Attacks:


> *Special Attacks*
> A titanic creature retains the special attacks of the base creature and also gains the abilities and modifications described below.
> 
> _Area Attacks (Ex):_ A titanic creature’s area attacks (such as a spider’s ability to generate webs) increase in size to gigantic proportions. Multiply the height, width, and length of the base creature’s area attack by the area modifier given on the Titanic Modifiers table.
> ...



I think we need to modify the trample and poison increase to account for the variability in size, since a Fine spider would become Medium as a mystaran gargantua and probably shouldn't have +2d6 poison damage. We can just add them to the table. The Trample should probably kick in at Huge-sized or so.


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## Cleon (Oct 29, 2010)

Inspired by the Titanic Template's "Titanic Modifiers Table", I've decided to fold all the size adjustments into a single "Mystara Gargantua Modifiers Table".

I'm going to edit my working draft with one and add the Damage Table I proposed in my previous post.


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## Cleon (Oct 30, 2010)

Cleon said:
			
		

> *Damage*
> A mystaran gargantua retains all the natural weapons, manufactured  weapons and weapon proficiencies of the base creature. The damage values of these attacks increase according to the following table (this includes improvement for increased size).
> 
> Old Damage (Each) -- New Damage
> ...




Just realized 7d6 for a 1d12 base damage doesn't work. I wanted to do something different from 8d6 the standard advancement would make it, just to introduce some graduation, but it gives it less average damage than a 1d10 base damage attack.

I'm tempted to change it to 4d12, but that's still less Dodecahedron's don't get enough love!

What the heck, how about rearranging that section so it does arbitrarily does quadruple base damage like the original version.

It means it loses a bit of damage at 1d8 and 1d10 base damage, but it's still less than a standard 3-size improvement:

Base .... New Damage ...... +3/+4 Standard Size Increase
1 .... 1d6 '(average 3.5) ' 1d4/1d6 '(average 2.5/3.5)
1d2 .. 1d8 '(average 4.5) ' 1d6/1d8 '(average 3.5/4.5)
 1d3 .. 2d6 '(average 7) ''' 1d8/2d6 '(average 4.5/7)
 1d4 .. 3d6 (average 10.5) ' 2d6/3d6 '''(average 7/10.5)
 1d6 .. 4d6 (average 14) ''' 3d6/4d6 (average 10.5/14)
 1d8 .. 4d8 (average 18) ''' 4d6/6d6 ''(average 14/21)
 1d10. 4d10 (average 22) ''' 4d8/6d8 ''(average 18/27)
 1d12. 4d12  (average 26) ''' 6d6/8d6 ''(average 21/28)
 2d6 .. 8d6 (average 28) ''' 6d6/8d6 ''(average 21/28)
 2d8 .. 8d8 (average 36) ''' 6d8/8d8 ''(average 27/36)

I like that progression, so I'm changing my working draft.


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## Cleon (Oct 31, 2010)

How's this for the Special Attacks, mostly based on the Titanic template's SAs. We'll need to figure out some trample and area multiple values.

*Special Attacks*
A mystaran gargantua creature retains the special attacks of the base creature and  also gains the abilities and modifications described below. The DCs of its special attacks are recalculated according to its new hit dice and ability scores.

_Area Attacks (Ex):_  A mystaran gargantua creature's area attacks (such as a spider’s ability to  generate webs) increase in size to gigantic proportions. Multiply the  height, width, and length of the base creature's area attack by the area  modifier given on the *Mystaran Gargantua Modifiers* table.

_Increased Damage (Ex):_  If the base creature has a special attack that deals hit point damage, increase this damage according to the *Mystaran Gargantua Damage* table, or multiply by 4 if the attack does a set amount of damage (e.g. if the base creature has an special attack doing 4 points of acid damage the mystaran gargantua's version would do 16 acid damage.)

If the base creature has a special attack that causes ability damage or ability drain, such as a poison bite, increase this ability damage by the amount given in the *Mystaran Gargantua Modifiers* table.

_Swallow Whole (Ex):_ A mystaran gargantua gains a swallow whole attack if it ha a bite attack and is Gargantuan size or larger. The creature can swallow opponents up to three size smaller than itself (i.e. up to the size of the base creature) by making a successful grapple check. Once inside, an opponent takes takes crushing damage equal to the creature's bite attack plus acid damage (8 plus 4 per size above Gargantuan) from the creature's gizzard. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal 25 points of damage to the gizzard (AC 10 plus half the creature's natural armour). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out. A Gargantua's interior can hold 2 opponents of the base creature's size, 8 opponents 1 size smaller than the base creature, 32 opponents 2 sizes smaller, and so on. 

If the base creature already has a swallow whole attack, use that attack's  damage values (adjusted by the Increased Damage special ability) if the  result would be better than the damage given above.

_Trample (Ex):_ A Huge or larger mystaran gargantua gains a trample attack. It can trample opponents smaller size than itself, doing the damage given in the *Mystaran Gargantua Modifiers* table plus 1½ times the creature's Strength bonus. A trampled  opponent can attempt either an attack of opportunity at a –4 penalty or a  Reflex save (DC 10 + ½HD + the titanic creature’s Str bonus) for half damage.

If the base creature already has a trample attack, use that attack's damage value adjusted by the Increased Damage special ability if the result is better than the damage of the *Mystaran Gargantua Modifiers* table.


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## Shade (Nov 2, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.

I'm thinking we should consider dropping Fine, Diminutive, and Tiny creatures from this template.  I have a hard time calling a Small housefly a "Gargantua".  :/

Should animals and vermin become magical beasts?


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## Cleon (Nov 2, 2010)

Hello, is there anyone out there?

I'm getting the feeling I'm a one man band here, isn't anyone else going to at least comment on the Gargantua template. 

Anyhow, since no-one's objected so far I'll *Update* the working draft with the "Special Attacks" text in my previous post. (I tidied up some of the wording while I was at it).

The *Mystaran Gargantua Modifiers* table will need updating.

I still feel the Str and Con bonuses need a bit of an increase, but will leave that to one side for now.

How about this for a start:

*Mystaran Gargantua Modifiers Table*
*Size of .......Natural* .  .  .  .  .  . .  .  .  .  . . . Ability..Trample*
Base Creature . Armour **. Str . Dex . Con* . Area . Damage . Damage
 Fine............ Same ... +6 .. -2 .. -- .. ×1 . . +1d2 . .. . --
  Diminutive...... Same .. +10 .. -2 .. +2 .. ×1 . . +1d3 . .. . --
  Tiny ........... +2NA .. +18 .. -2 .. +6 .. ×2 . . +1d4 . .. . --
  Small .......... +5NA .. +20 .. -2 . +10 .. ×2 . . +1d6 . . . 2d8
  Medium ......... +9NA .. +24 .. -2 . +12 .. ×3 . . +1d8 . . . 3d8
  Large ......... +12NA .. +24 .. -- . +12 .. ×3 .. +1d10 . . . 4d8
  Huge .......... +16NA .. +24 .. -- . +12 .. ×4 .. +1d12 . . . 6d8 
 Gargantuan .... +20NA .. +24 .. -- . +12 .. ×4 . . +2d6 . . . 8d8 
 Colossal ...... +25NA .. +24 .. -- . +12 .. ×5 . . +2d6 . .. 12d8


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## Shade (Nov 2, 2010)

Look up(thread).


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## Mortis (Nov 3, 2010)

Shade said:


> I'm thinking we should consider dropping Fine, Diminutive, and Tiny creatures from this template.  I have a hard time calling a Small housefly a "Gargantua".  :/



Yeah, I agree - they'd be pretty much the save as a (for example) 'monstrous fly', anyway.



> Should animals and vermin become magical beasts?



I don't think so - as other than their size they are not really any different - i.e. they don't gain any spell-like or supernatural abilities.



			
				Cleon said:
			
		

> Hello, is there anyone out there?



Yup ;-)

Template looks good so far. I would suggest a line for attacks that originally deal 0 points of damage (eg rust monster's antennea) - perhaps a 1d4?

I wouldn't be adverse to increasing Str by 4 pts and Con by 2 pts for each size past Medium.

Regards
Mortis


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## Cleon (Nov 3, 2010)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> I'm thinking we should consider dropping Fine, Diminutive, and Tiny creatures from this template.  I have a hard time calling a Small housefly a "Gargantua".  :/
> 
> ...




I'd rather leave it in, since the original didn't specify and size restrictions. I'd be happy to note in the flavour text that the wizard generally used creatures of between Tiny and Huge size for his gargantuism experiments. 

Besides, 8 to 50 pounds is pretty dang gargantuan for a housefly. 



Shade said:


> Should animals and vermin become magical beasts?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The Titanic template doesn't change the type and the Mystaran Gargantua template doesn't add any Su abilities, so I'd leave the type unchanged.



Mortis said:


> Template looks good so far. I would suggest a line  for attacks that originally deal 0 points of damage (eg rust monster's  antennea) - perhaps a 1d4?




I was thinking the same. The Gargantua Carrion Crawler has tentacles which do "1d4 damage plus paralysis" instead of the standard "paralysis with no damage".

Maybe 1d4 damage but note the damage bonus is always the 1/2 Str modifier of a secondary attack?



Mortis said:


> I wouldn't be adverse to increasing Str by 4 pts and Con by 2 pts for each size past Medium.




I was thinking a more modest +2 Str and Con per size past Medium:

*Mystaran Gargantua Modifiers Table*
*Size of .......Natural* .  .  .  .  .  . .  .  .  .  . . . Ability..Trample*
Base Creature . Armour **. Str . Dex . Con* . Area . Damage . Damage
 Fine............ Same ... +6 .. -2 .. -- .. ×1 . . +1d2 . .. . --
  Diminutive...... Same .. +10 .. -2 .. +2 .. ×1 . . +1d3 . .. . --
  Tiny ........... +2NA .. +18 .. -2 .. +6 .. ×2 . . +1d4 . .. . --
  Small .......... +5NA .. +20 .. -2 . +10 .. ×2 . . +1d6 . . . 2d8
  Medium ......... +9NA .. +24 .. -2 . +12 .. ×3 . . +1d8 . . . 3d8
  Large ......... +12NA .. +26 .. -- . +14 .. ×3 .. +1d10 . . . 4d8
  Huge .......... +16NA .. +28 .. -- . +16 .. ×4 .. +1d12 . . . 6d8 
 Gargantuan .... +20NA .. +30 .. -- . +18 .. ×4 . . +2d6 . . . 8d8 
 Colossal ...... +25NA .. +32 .. -- . +20 .. ×5 . . +2d6 . .. 12d8


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## Cleon (Nov 3, 2010)

Another change was I was giving it Snatch as a bonus  feat when it hits size Gargantuan, so it gets improved grab with its  claws & bite.

That way gargantuas that gain Swallow Whole can easily grapple creatures to gulp down.

I'm also thinking about giving flying gargantuas Hover as a bonus feat.

Also, there's a Gargantua in the AC9 Creature Catalog that's basically a 50 foot long carp. We could consider it a separate monster, but since it's also indexed as "Carp, Gargantua" I'm tempted to add it to the Gargantua family.

This Gargantua has a water blast attack: "Each round, it can strike with its tail, and either bite or use its breath weapon (25% chance). The breath is a 30-foot-wide and 60-foot-long blast of water which knocks down any opponent and hurls him or her 100 feet away (negated by a successful Saving Throw vs. Dragon Breath). The water blast does no damage, but the landing might."

Maybe it's a Gargantua Giant Archer Fish, but if the base creature was "regular" giant carp, it suggests giving flying and swimming gargantuas a windstorm and waterblast special attack respectively.


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## Cleon (Nov 4, 2010)

Cleon said:


> I'd rather leave it in, since the original didn't specify and size restrictions. I'd be happy to note in the flavour text that the wizard generally used creatures of between Tiny and Huge size for his gargantuism experiments.




I've got a better idea, how about changing the size increase so the minimum size is Large, e.g. Fine creatures are +5 size categories, Diminutive are +4 size categories.

We'd need to tweak the tables, but it should be simple enough.


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## Mortis (Nov 5, 2010)

Off the wall idea first. 



Cleon said:


> I've got a better idea, how about changing the size increase so the minimum size is Large, e.g. Fine creatures are +5 size categories, Diminutive are +4 size categories.
> 
> We'd need to tweak the tables, but it should be simple enough.



To take this suggestion in a different direction - how about a template that makes a Gargantuan size version regardless of it's original size (Of course Colossal creatures would actually get smaller).



> I was thinking a more modest +2 Str and Con per size past Medium



I guess I could live with that.




> Maybe 1d4 damage but note the damage bonus is always the 1/2 Str modifier of a secondary attack?



I've no problem with that.

I've also got no problem with any of the bonus feat or special ability suggestions.

After looking at the gargantua conversion in the vaults of pandius (Gargantua) it reminded me that there are more examples in the Immortal rules set (must dig it out and have a look).

I'm not sure that Jamie's Gargantuan Spectre warrants a CR of 28 though.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Nov 5, 2010)

Cleon said:


> I'd rather leave it in, since the original didn't specify and size restrictions. I'd be happy to note in the flavour text that the wizard generally used creatures of between Tiny and Huge size for his gargantuism experiments.
> 
> Besides, 8 to 50 pounds is pretty dang gargantuan for a housefly.




Not enough, in a world of "giant" and "dire" creatures.



Cleon said:


> I've got a better idea, how about changing the size increase so the minimum size is Large, e.g. Fine creatures are +5 size categories, Diminutive are +4 size categories.
> 
> We'd need to tweak the tables, but it should be simple enough.




Make it Huge, and I'll sign your petition.  



Mortis said:


> Off the wall idea first.
> 
> 
> To take this suggestion in a different direction - how about a template that makes a Gargantuan size version regardless of it's original size (Of course Colossal creatures would actually get smaller).




That sounds crazy...crazy fun!  

It makes me want to do a "Man-sized" template, since so many unusually-sized creatures are referred to in that manner.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 6, 2010)

Shade said:


> Make it Huge, and I'll sign your petition.




I still quite like the original +3 size categories, and failing that I definitely prefer the cut-off at Large, since I fancied the smaller (or just smallest) size gargantuas to be too small to get their Trample SQ.

Although, giving them all Trample _would_ make the Challenge Rating easier to figure.

What do you fancy, Mortis?



Shade said:


> Mortis said:
> 
> 
> > To take this suggestion in a different direction - how about a template  that makes a Gargantuan size version regardless of it's original size  (Of course Colossal creatures would actually get smaller).
> ...




That's what the Titanic template does, and I wanted to have a different approach - otherwise we might as well just use that MMII template.



Shade said:


> It makes me want to do a "Man-sized" template, since so many unusually-sized creatures are referred to in that manner.




Well, there's nothing stopping you.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 6, 2010)

OK, if we're using a size cut-off (which I'm setting at Large whether Shade likes it or not ) we'll need to modify the size & HD entries and both tables in the template.

Like this:

*Size and Type*
The base creature's type remains the same.

If the base creature is Fine or Diminutive in size the mystaran gargantua is Large-sized, if the base creature is Tiny or larger the creature's size increases by three size categories.

If the base creature is Huge-sized, the mystaran gargantua will be  Colossal-sized with a Space of 40 ft. and a reach of 40 ft. if tall, 30  ft. if long. If the base creature is Gargantuan or larger in size, the  mystaran gargantua will be Colossal-sized with a Space of 50 ft. and a  reach of 50 ft. if tall, 40 ft. if long.

*Hit Dice*
If the base creature has 2 or more HD, multiply the base creature's Hit Dice by 8. For mystaran gargantua with fewer than 2 HD, the gargantua will have 12 HD if the base creature has 1 HD, 9 HD if the base creature has 1/2 Hit Dice and 6 HD if the base creature has 1/4 Hit Dice.

*Damage*
A mystaran gargantua retains all the natural weapons, manufactured    weapons and weapon proficiencies of the base creature. The damage values   of these attacks increase according to the following table (this   includes improvement for increased size).

*Mystaran Gargantua Damage*
Old Damage . . New Damage by Base Creature's Size
(Each) . . . . Fine . . Diminutive . . Tiny or larger
. 0 . . . .. . 1d8*. . . 1d6* . . . .. . . 1d4*
. 1 . . . .. . 1d10 . . . 1d8 . . . . . . . 1d6 
.1d2 . . . . . 1d12. . . 1d10 . . . .. . . 1d8
.1d3 . . . . . 3d6. . . . 2d8 . . . . . . . 2d6
.1d4 . . . . . 3d8. . . . 3d6 . . . . . . . 3d6
.1d6 . . . . . 4d8. . . . 4d6 . . . . . . . 4d6
.1d8 . . . . . 4d8. . . . 4d8 . . . . . . . 4d8
.1d10 . . .. . 4d10. . . 4d10 . . . . . . 4d10
.1d12 . . .. . 4d12. . . 4d12 . . . . . . 4d12 
.2d6 . . . . . 8d6. . . . 8d6 . . . . . . . 8d6
.2d8 . . . . . 8d8. . . . 8d8 . . . . . . . 8d8
*If the base creature has an attack that deals no damage (such as a roper's strands), the attack does damage according to the "0" old damage row plus half the mystaran gargantua's damage Str bonus.
If the base creature has no attacks listed (such as a bat), it gains a single attack with the damage given in the "0" old damage row plus 1½ the mystaran gargantua's damage Str bonus. Use whichever type of natural attack seems most appropriate; it is usually a bite, slam or kick.

I'll have to leave the *Mystaran Gargantua Modifiers* table for later.


----------



## Mortis (Nov 8, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Although, giving them all Trample _would_ make the Challenge Rating easier to figure.
> 
> What do you fancy, Mortis?



Well... since you ask. I prefer 'the bigger the better' so would agree with Shade's cut off of Huge.




> That's what the Titanic template does, and I wanted to have a different approach - otherwise we might as well just use that MMII template.



Ah, didn't know that - should really have checked though.



> Well, there's nothing stopping you.



And the first candidate will be a man-sized halfling 

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Nov 8, 2010)

Mortis said:


> Well... since you ask. I prefer 'the bigger the better' so would agree with Shade's cut off of Huge.




Team Huge leads 2-1.  You'll need to drum up support elsewhere, Cleon, for your Not-So-Gargantuan Gargantua!


----------



## Cleon (Nov 10, 2010)

Shade said:


> Team Huge leads 2-1.  You'll need to drum up support elsewhere, Cleon, for your Not-So-Gargantuan Gargantua!




I knew you would gang up on l'il old me. Just 'cause you're a size category Huger, you big bullies. 

Well, I guess Huge it is then. I'll need to tweak the previous proposal for the size changes:


*Size and Type*
The base creature's type remains the same.

Increase the base creature's size category by three steps. If the base creature is up to Small-sized, the mystaran  gargantua is Huge-sized, if the base creature is Medium-sized or larger, the  creature's size increases by three size categories.

If the base creature is Huge-sized, the mystaran gargantua will be   Colossal-sized with a Space of 40 ft. and a reach of 40 ft. if tall or 30   ft. if long. If the base creature is Gargantuan or larger in size, the   mystaran gargantua will be Colossal-sized with a Space of 50 ft. and a   reach of 50 ft. if tall or 40 ft. if long.

*Hit Dice*
If the base creature has 2 or more HD, multiply the base creature's Hit  Dice by 8. For mystaran gargantua with fewer than 2 HD, the gargantua  will have 12 HD if the base creature has 1 HD and 8 HD if the base creature  has less than 1 HD.

*Damage*
A mystaran gargantua retains all the natural weapons, manufactured     weapons and weapon proficiencies of the base creature. The damage values    of these attacks increase according to the following table (this    includes improvement for increased size).

*Mystaran Gargantua Damage* 
*Old Damage . . New Damage by Base Creature's Size
(Each) . . . . Fine . . Diminutive . . Tiny or larger*
. 0 . . .. . . 1d8* . . . 1d6* . . . .. . . 1d4*
. 1 . . . . . 1d10 . .. . 1d8 . . . . . . . 1d6 
.1d2. . . . . 1d12 . . . 1d10 . . . . . . . 1d8
.1d3 . . . . . 3d6. . . . 2d8 . . . . . . . 2d6
.1d4 . . . . . 3d8. . . . 3d6 . . . . . . . 3d6
.1d6 . . . . . 4d8. . . . 4d6 . . . . . . . 4d6
.1d8 . . . . . 4d8. . . . 4d8 . . . . . . . 4d8
.1d10 . . . . 4d10 . . . 4d10 . . . .. . . 4d10
.1d12 . . . . 4d12 . . . 4d12 . . . .. . . 4d12 
.2d6 . . . . . 8d6. . . . 8d6 . . . . . . . 8d6
.2d8 . . . . . 8d8. . . . 8d8 . . . . . . . 8d8
*If  the base creature has an attack that deals no damage (such as a roper's  strands), the attack does damage according to the "0" old damage row  plus half the mystaran gargantua's damage Str bonus.

If the base creature has no attacks listed (such as a bat), it gains a  single attack with the damage given in the "0" old damage row plus 1½  the mystaran gargantua's damage Str bonus. Use whichever type of natural  attack seems most appropriate; it is usually a bite, slam or kick.

*Mystaran Gargantua Modifiers Table*
*Size of. . . . Natural . . . . . . . . . . . . . Ability. Trample
Base Creature . Armour . Str . Dex . Con . Area . Damage . Damage*
Fine . . . . . . Same .. +30 .. -2 . +12 .. ×6 .. +1d10 . . . 2d8
Diminutive . . . Same .. +28 .. -2 . +12 .. ×5 . . +2d4 . . . 2d8
Tiny . . . . . . +2NA .. +24 .. -2 . +10 .. ×5 . . +1d8 . . . 2d8
Small. . . . . . +5NA .. +20 .. -2 . +10 .. ×4 . . +1d6 . . . 2d8
Medium . . . . . +9NA .. +24 .. -2 . +12 .. ×4 . . +1d8 . . . 3d8
Large . . . . . +12NA .. +24 .. -- . +12 .. ×3 .. +1d10 . . . 4d8
Huge. . . . . . +16NA .. +24 .. -- . +12 .. ×3 .. +1d12 . . . 6d8
Gargantuan. . . +20NA .. +24 .. -- . +12 .. ×2 . . +2d6 . . . 8d8
Colossal. . . . +25NA .. +24 .. -- . +12 .. ×2 . . +2d6 . .. 12d8


----------



## Cleon (Nov 10, 2010)

I've *Updated* the working draft to include the bonus Snatch and Hover feats we agreed on.

I've also removed the "Huge or larger" from the Trample entry since all the Gargantuas will qualify now.

Once we've settled on the Huge-size adjustments, I'd like to argue about the windstorm and waterblast special attack I proposed earlier.


----------



## GrayLinnorm (Nov 10, 2010)

How about making colossal creatures with this template applied Colossal+?


----------



## Cleon (Nov 11, 2010)

GrayLinnorm said:


> How about making colossal creatures with this template applied Colossal+?




They already are.

If you check my *Working Draft* you'll see any base creature of Huge or greater size becomes a Colossal+ gargantua.


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## freyar (Nov 12, 2010)

Whew, that's a lot to catch up on.  And I have this vague idea that we're retreading ground from some 3rd party OGL products.  I'd like them to at least be Huge if not bigger; say you want to apply the template to a fly, then start with a giant fly instead!!


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## Shade (Nov 15, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Once we've settled on the Huge-size adjustments, I'd like to argue about the windstorm and waterblast special attack I proposed earlier.




Do any of the sample Mystaran gargantuas have such powers?



GrayLinnorm said:


> How about making colossal creatures with this template applied Colossal+?






Cleon said:


> They already are.
> 
> If you check my *Working Draft* you'll see any base creature of Huge or greater size becomes a Colossal+ gargantua.




Updated Homebrews.

Rather than set a specific size, I added a note to simply increase the space reach for already Colossal creatures.  This avoids any issues where a creature might actually get *smaller *(Colossal allows a great variance in Space/Reach).

Cleon -- Now that Homebrews is (mostly) caught up, please avoid updating your working draft to avoid confusion.  Just let me know what changes need to be made to Homebrews.  Thanks!


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## Mortis (Nov 17, 2010)

Shade said:


> Do any of the sample Mystaran gargantuas have such powers?



No - but then again it was supposed to be a 'simpler' system.

And we've got to give Cleon something after taking away his 'Large' option. 

Regards
Mortis


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## Cleon (Nov 17, 2010)

Shade said:


> Do any of the sample Mystaran gargantuas have such powers?




There isn't any precedent for windstorm, but there's a "Gargantua" in AC9 with a water-blast breath weapon. It's listed in the index as "Gargantua, Carp", so I think it qualifies.



Shade said:


> Rather than set a specific size, I added a note to simply increase the space reach for already Colossal creatures.  This avoids any issues where a creature might actually get *smaller *(Colossal allows a great variance in Space/Reach).




The basic approach is good, although I fancy retaining the three size step increase.

e.g.:

*Mystaran Gargantua Size Table*
Base Size. . . New Size . Space/Reach (tall) . Space/Reach (long)
Fine to Small . Huge . . . 15 ft./15 ft . . 15 ft./10 ft.
Medium . . . Gargantuan .. 20 ft./20 ft . . 20 ft./15 ft.
Large . . . . Colossal . . 30 ft./30 ft . . 30 ft./20 ft.
Huge . .. . . Colossal . . 40 ft./40 ft . . 40 ft./30 ft.
Gargantuan .. Colossal . . 50 ft./50 ft . . 50 ft./40 ft.
Colossal . .. Colossal .. +30 ft./+30 ft . +30 ft./+20 ft.*
*If the base creature is Colossal, increase its Space by 30 ft. and increase its Reach by 30 ft. (for tall) or 20 ft. (for long).

Hmm... I think I prefer that to the current Homebrew version.



Shade said:


> Cleon -- Now that Homebrews is (mostly) caught up, please avoid updating your working draft to avoid confusion.  Just let me know what changes need to be made to Homebrews.  Thanks!




Don't worry, I intended to stop updating it once the Homebrew's up.

I'm plotting all new methods for confusing you.


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## freyar (Nov 17, 2010)

I think the waterblast was based on the gargantua carp.  Was the windblast just from Hover?  I could see adding those, but only for "appropriate" critters (say, aquatic ones and ones with wings).


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## Shade (Nov 17, 2010)

Cleon said:


> There isn't any precedent for windstorm, but there's a "Gargantua" in AC9 with a water-blast breath weapon. It's listed in the index as "Gargantua, Carp", so I think it qualifies.




Since most of the Mystaran gargantua didn't gain additional powers, let's add this as an underbar.  Something like "Additional Gargantua Powers" with an associated CR increase.



Cleon said:


> The basic approach is good, although I fancy retaining the three size step increase.
> Colossal . .. Colossal .. +30 ft./+30 ft . +30 ft./+20 ft.*
> If the base creature is Colossal, increase its Space by 30 ft. and increase its Reach by 30 ft. (for tall) or 20 ft. (for long).




That works for me.  I just want to avoid the largely unnecessary "size that isn't a size" Colossal+.  



Cleon said:


> Don't worry, I intended to stop updating it once the Homebrew's up.
> 
> I'm plotting all new methods for confusing you.




<braces self>


----------



## freyar (Nov 18, 2010)

Well, I'm confused enough.  What remains on these?


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## Mortis (Nov 19, 2010)

freyar said:


> Well, I'm confused enough.  What remains on these?



Description - which will obviously be based on the original creature.

Organisation - I agree with Solitary. There may be more at Immortal/Epic level though.

CR

and of course some examples - Should we stick to the examples in the Master/Immortal rules?

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Nov 19, 2010)

We should work up the samples first to determine the CR adjustment, and yes to using the Master/Immortal sample monsters again here.


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## Cleon (Nov 20, 2010)

Shade said:


> Since most of the Mystaran gargantua didn't gain additional powers, let's add this as an underbar.  Something like "Additional Gargantua Powers" with an associated CR increase.




That works for me.

I was basically thinking land creatures get trample, aquatic creatures get waterblast, flyers get windblast.


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## Cleon (Nov 20, 2010)

Mortis said:


> Description - which will obviously be based on the original creature.
> 
> Organisation - I agree with Solitary. There may be more at Immortal/Epic level though.




Going by the original description it should be solitary with a note they congregate in numbers around "The Tower of Gargantua".



Mortis said:


> CR




I'm thinking of using the following table:

*Old CR . . . New CR*
up to 1/4 . . CR 5
1/3 or 1/2 .. CR 6
. . 1 . . . . CR 8
. . 2 . . . . CR 10
. . 3 . . . . CR 13
. . 4 . . . . CR 16
. . 5 . . . . CR 18
. . 6 . . . . CR 21
. . 7 . . . . CR 24
each +1 . . . CR +3

It seems to work OK, but I'd like to do some examples before settling on it.



Mortis said:


> and of course some examples - Should we stick to the examples in the Master/Immortal rules?




We can't use a Carrion Crawler, since that's product identity, but I'm looking forward to a Gargantua Troll and a Gargantua Gargoyle.

I think we should also do a Vermin and an Animal. Maybe a Small Monstrous Spider and a Rat?

A spider will allow us to see how the area-effect and poison boosting works out, and a Rat seems a likely subject for "early experimentation".

Four examples would probably do, unless you fancy a Magical Beast as well?


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## freyar (Nov 22, 2010)

Well, I don't think we can forget a Gargantua Carp!


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## Shade (Nov 22, 2010)

Although carrion crawlers are now "product identity", I still think its OK to use one for a sample creature.  (Besides, it'll never come off the unconverted list otherwise!)

Applying it to a carrion crawler...

*Mystaran Gargantua Carrion Crawler*
Gargantuan Aberration
Hit Dice: 24d8+192 (300 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 60 ft. (12 squares), climb 30 ft.
Armor Class: 22 (-4 size, +2 Dex, +18 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 20
Base Attack/Grapple: +18/+44
Attack: Tentacle +40 melee (1d4+7 plus paralysis)
Full Attack: 8 tentacles +40 melee (1d4+7 plus paralysis) and bite +35 melee (3d6+7)
Space/Reach: 20 ft./15 ft.
Special Attacks: Paralysis, swallow whole, trample xdx+21
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., scent
Saves: Fort +16, Ref +10, Will +16
Abilities: Str 38, Dex 15, Con 26, Int 1, Wis 15, Cha 6
Skills: Climb +46, Listen +28, Spot +28
Feats: Alertness (B), Combat Reflexes, Snatch (B), Track, 7 more (2 can be epic)
Environment: Underground
Organization: Solitary, pair, or cluster (3-5)
Challenge Rating: 4+x
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 25-48 HD (Gargantuan); 49-72 HD (Colossal)
Level Adjustment: —

Paralysis (Ex): Those hit by a carrion crawler's tentacle attack must succeed on a DC 30 Fortitude save or be paralyzed for 2d4 rounds. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Swallow Whole (Ex): A Mystaran gargantua carrion crawler can swallow opponents up to three size smaller than itself by making a successful grapple check. Once inside, an opponent takes takes crushing damage equal to the creature's bite attack plus 8 points of acid damage from the creature's gizzard. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal 25 points of damage to the gizzard (AC 19). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out. A Mystaran gargantua carrion crawler's interior can hold 2 Large opponents, 8 Medium opponents, and 32 Small or smaller opponents. 

Trample (Ex): Reflex half DC 46. The save DC is Strength-based.

Skills: Carrion crawlers have a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks and can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks even if rushed or threatened.

______________________________________________________________

Somewhere along the way we lost the trample damage values in both Cleon's working draft and the main template.   Ditto for the original attack that dealt no damage (I added it back, but I may not have done it the way we agreed).


----------



## Cleon (Nov 23, 2010)

Shade said:


> Although carrion crawlers are now "product identity", I still think its OK to use one for a sample creature.  (Besides, it'll never come off the unconverted list otherwise!)
> 
> Applying it to a carrion crawler...




I'm still not sure how kosher doing the Carrion Crawler is, wouldn't it be safer upgrading some other monsters?

Anyhow, the stats look OK, except for a couple of quibbles.

First, I thought we'd settled on +3 sizes, so it should be Colossal, not Gargantuan.

Second, doesn't the template change the Organization to "Solitary"?

According to my rough draft of the Challenge Rating table the MGCC should be CR 16, which seems about right.



Shade said:


> Somewhere along the way we lost the trample damage values in both Cleon's working draft and the main template.   Ditto for the original attack that dealt no damage (I added it back, but I may not have done it the way we agreed).




We didn't lose it, the table's *still there*.

The table says 4d8 trample for a base size of Large. 4d8+21 isn't too shabby.


----------



## freyar (Nov 24, 2010)

I still think we need a carp. 

EDIT: if we're really worried about the name, why not just change to Mystaran Gargantua Carcass Crawler or something obvious but not trademarked?


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## GrayLinnorm (Nov 24, 2010)

freyar said:


> I still think we need a carp.
> 
> EDIT: if we're really worried about the name, why not just change to Mystaran Gargantua Carcass Crawler or something obvious but not trademarked?




There's a giant carp in _Oriental Adventures/Monstrous Compendium, Kara-Tur Appendix._  We could convert that when we're done with the flame spirits.


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## freyar (Nov 24, 2010)

Is that one AC9?  Cleon had it pegged as a gargantua, which was his hope for a water blast attack.  Actually, did we ever agree on that?


----------



## Cleon (Nov 24, 2010)

freyar said:


> I still think we need a carp.
> 
> EDIT: if we're really worried about the name, why not just change to Mystaran Gargantua Carcass Crawler or something obvious but not trademarked?




I like the ring of Carcass Creeper better.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 24, 2010)

GrayLinnorm said:


> There's a giant carp in _Oriental Adventures/Monstrous Compendium, Kara-Tur Appendix._  We could convert that when we're done with the flame spirits.




The MC6 Giant Carp is a lot smaller than the BECMI edition Gargantua and doesn't have a waterblast attack.

The Giant Carp is basically the same as AD&D's Giant Catfish (1E in MM2 and 2E in MC2 and MM), just a bit bigger and with slightly higher HD (8-12 HD and 20-30 feet for the Carp, 7-10 HD and 16-24 feet for the Catfish).

The Gargantua I'm talking about is 50 feet long and has 15 Hit Dice. It's listed in the index _*Carp, Gargantua*_ and _*Fish, Gargantua Carp*_ and _*Gargantua Carp*_. Incidentally, AC9 has a separate entry for _*Giant Catfish*_ under _*Fish, Giant*_.

Here's its AC9 stats:

*GARGANTUA*
Armour Class:    4    Save As:    Fighter: 7
Hit Dice:    15*    Morale:    11
Move (swimming):    90’ (30’)    Treasure Type:    A
Attacks:    1 tail / 1 bite or breath    Intelligence:    2
Damage:    2-20/3-18 or    Alignment:    Neutral
    see below    XP Value:    2300
No. Appearing:    0 (1)        

The gargantua is a gigantic fish of the carp family. It is 50 feet long with a large tail and a sucker mouth lined with many sharp teeth. It prowls the ocean floor scavenging for its meals, and often devours the contents of sunken ships. Any treasure it might have will be found in its belly. On an unmodified Hit Roll of 20 it will swallow any opponent of less than giant size. The gargantua’s digestive juices do 2d6 points of damage each round. Each round, it can strike with its tail, and either bite or use its breath weapon (25% chance). The breath is a 30-foot-wide and 60-foot-long blast of water which knocks down any opponent and hurls him or her 100 feet away (negated by a successful Saving Throw vs. Dragon Breath). The water blast does no damage, but the landing might.


----------



## freyar (Nov 25, 2010)

Weird description; if it's a bottom-feeder, why did it evolve a water blast that clearly works above the surface of the water?

I'd suggest making a water blast that does bludgeoning damage and bull rushes any victim.  Sound right?


----------



## Cleon (Nov 26, 2010)

freyar said:


> Weird description; if it's a bottom-feeder, why did it evolve a water blast that clearly works above the surface of the water?
> 
> I'd suggest making a water blast that does bludgeoning damage and bull rushes any victim.  Sound right?




The original didn't do any damage (unless its victims get blown onto something hard), but I was wanting something that did some damage.

I was thinking of reworking the windblast SA we did for Mothra the Insectoid Gargantua so it affects a Cone/Line instead of a Spread/Cone. That would get us most of the way there.


----------



## freyar (Nov 29, 2010)

Care to write that up as a line?


----------



## Shade (Nov 29, 2010)

Cleon said:


> First, I thought we'd settled on +3 sizes, so it should be Colossal, not Gargantuan.




Did we?  I'm not opposed, but I think things got confused with the two different versions being updated in tandem.



Cleon said:


> We didn't lose it, the table's *still there*.
> 
> The table says 4d8 trample for a base size of Large. 4d8+21 isn't too shabby.




Look over the Homebrews version and let me know what is missing from your working draft.



freyar said:


> I still think we need a carp.




Absolutely!  Ditto for the troll and gargoyle (and whatever other gargantua remain unconverted).



freyar said:


> EDIT: if we're really worried about the name, why not just change to Mystaran Gargantua Carcass Crawler or something obvious but not trademarked?




I'm not worried.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 30, 2010)

Shade said:


> Look over the Homebrews version and let me know what is missing from your working draft.




My proposed changes aren't in my Working Draft 'cause you asked me not to update it to avoid confusion, they're in posts 946, 953 and 960.

...told you I was creating new ways to confuse you. 

Putting them all together, they are:

*Size and Type*
The base creature's type remains the same.

Increase the base creature's size according to the following table:

*Mystaran Gargantua Size Table*
Base Size. . . New Size . Space/Reach (tall) . Space/Reach (long)
Fine to Small . Huge . . . 15 ft./15 ft . . 15 ft./10 ft.
Medium . . . Gargantuan .. 20 ft./20 ft . . 20 ft./15 ft.
Large . . . . Colossal . . 30 ft./30 ft . . 30 ft./20 ft.
Huge . .. . . Colossal . . 40 ft./40 ft . . 40 ft./30 ft.
Gargantuan .. Colossal . . 50 ft./50 ft . . 50 ft./40 ft.
Colossal . .. Colossal .. +30 ft./+30 ft . +30 ft./+20 ft.*
*If  the base creature is Colossal, increase its Space by 30 ft. and  increase its Reach by 30 ft. (for tall) or 20 ft. (for long).

*Hit Dice*
If the base creature has 2 or more HD, multiply the base creature's Hit   Dice by 8. For mystaran gargantua with fewer than 2 HD, the gargantua   will have 12 HD if the base creature has 1 HD and 8 HD if the base  creature  has less than 1 HD.

*Damage*
A mystaran gargantua retains all the natural weapons, manufactured      weapons and weapon proficiencies of the base creature. The damage values     of these attacks increase according to the following table (this     includes improvement for increased size).

*Mystaran Gargantua Damage* 
*Old Damage . . New Damage by Base Creature's Size
(Each) . . . . Fine . . Diminutive . . Tiny or larger*
. 0 . . .. . . 1d8* . . . 1d6* . . . .. . . 1d4*
. 1 . . . . . 1d10 . .. . 1d8 . . . . . . . 1d6 
.1d2. . . . . 1d12 . . . 1d10 . . . . . . . 1d8
.1d3 . . . . . 3d6. . . . 2d8 . . . . . . . 2d6
.1d4 . . . . . 3d8. . . . 3d6 . . . . . . . 3d6
.1d6 . . . . . 4d8. . . . 4d6 . . . . . . . 4d6
.1d8 . . . . . 4d8. . . . 4d8 . . . . . . . 4d8
.1d10 . . . . 4d10 . . . 4d10 . . . .. . . 4d10
.1d12 . . . . 4d12 . . . 4d12 . . . .. . . 4d12 
.2d6 . . . . . 8d6. . . . 8d6 . . . . . . . 8d6
.2d8 . . . . . 8d8. . . . 8d8 . . . . . . . 8d8
*If   the base creature has an attack that deals no damage (such as a  roper's  strands), the attack does damage according to the "0" old  damage row  plus half the mystaran gargantua's damage Str bonus.

If the base creature has no attacks listed (such as a bat), it gains a   single attack with the damage given in the "0" old damage row plus 1½   the mystaran gargantua's damage Str bonus. Use whichever type of natural   attack seems most appropriate; it is usually a bite, slam or kick.

*Mystaran Gargantua Modifiers Table*
*Size of. . . . Natural . . . . . . . . . . . . . Ability. Trample
Base Creature . Armour . Str . Dex . Con . Area . Damage . Damage*
Fine . . . . . . Same .. +30 .. -2 . +12 .. ×6 .. +1d10 . . . 2d8
Diminutive . . . Same .. +28 .. -2 . +12 .. ×5 . . +2d4 . . . 2d8
Tiny . . . . . . +2NA .. +24 .. -2 . +10 .. ×5 . . +1d8 . . . 2d8
Small. . . . . . +5NA .. +20 .. -2 . +10 .. ×4 . . +1d6 . . . 2d8
Medium . . . . . +9NA .. +24 .. -2 . +12 .. ×4 . . +1d8 . . . 3d8
Large . . . . . +12NA .. +24 .. -- . +12 .. ×3 .. +1d10 . . . 4d8
Huge. . . . . . +16NA .. +24 .. -- . +12 .. ×3 .. +1d12 . . . 6d8
Gargantuan. . . +20NA .. +24 .. -- . +12 .. ×2 . . +2d6 . . . 8d8
Colossal. . . . +25NA .. +24 .. -- . +12 .. ×2 . . +2d6 . .. 12d8

*Challenge Rating*
Update the base creature's challenge rating according to the following table:

*Mystaran Gargantua Challenge Rating Table*
*Old CR . . . New CR*
up to 1/4 . . CR 5
1/3 or 1/2 .. CR 6
. . 1 . . . . CR 8
. . 2 . . . . CR 10
. . 3 . . . . CR 13
. . 4 . . . . CR 16
. . 5 . . . . CR 18
. . 6 . . . . CR 21
. . 7 . . . . CR 24
each +1 . . . CR +3



Shade said:


> Absolutely!  Ditto for the troll and gargoyle (and whatever other gargantua remain unconverted).




Do you mind if I have a shot at the Gargoyle and Troll?


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## Shade (Nov 30, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Do you mind if I have a shot at the Gargoyle and Troll?




I figure they'll be part of the usual "group conversion", but feel free to get the ball rolling (assuming we're done with the carrion crawler).


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## Cleon (Nov 30, 2010)

freyar said:


> Care to write that up as a line?




Something like this...

*Windstorm (Ex):* A Gargantuan-sized or larger Mystaran gargantua that has a fly speed can create tornado-force windstorms. A flying gargantua can create a storm by hovering in place and taking a full-round action. Once started, it can maintain the windstorm with a move action each round. The windstorm can affect a cone 12 times longer than the gargantua's Space or a cylinder with a radius and height 4 times larger than the gargantua's Space (e.g. a gargantua with a 30 ft. Space could create a 360 ft. cone or a 120 ft. cylinder). It can choose a different area each round.

All flames in the region are extinguished. Ranged attacks are impossible to make while the windstorm is in effect (except for siege weapons or kaiju ranged attacks, which suffer a -8 penalty to attack). Listen checks are impossible.

Creatures  on the ground that are  smaller than the gargantua's base creature (max Large) must succeed on a Fort save (DC 10 + 1/2 HD + Str modifier) or be knocked prone and roll 1d10×10 feet, sustaining 1d6 points of nonlethal damage per 10 feet. Creatures on the ground that are the same size as the gargantua's base creature (max Huge) must succeed on the same saving throw or be knocked prone, while creatures on the ground a size larger than the gargantua's base creature (max Gargantuan) are checked if they fail this save. Bigger creatures are not damaged or impaired by the windstorm. The save DC is Strength-based.

Flying creatures smaller than the gargantua's base creature (max Large)  are blown back 2d10×10 feet and sustain 3d6 points of nonlethal damage if they fail the same saving throw. Flying creatures the same size as the gargantua's base creature (max Huge)  are blown back 1d6×10 feet and Flying creatures a size larger than the gargantua's base creature (max Gargantuan)   are blown back 1d6×5 feet, but neither take any damage.

***

*Waterblast (Ex):* A Mystaran gargantua with a swim speed can create a powerful blast of water as a standard action. The gargantua must be in water at least 20 feet deep to use this special attack. A waterblast can affect a line 20 times longer  than the gargantua's Space or a cone 10  times larger than the gargantua's Space (e.g. a gargantua with a 20 ft.  Space could create a 400 ft. line or a 200 ft. cylinder). All flames in the area of the waterblast are extinguished. Creatures within the area of the waterblast are affected as follows:

Any creature smaller than the gargantua's base creature (max Large) must succeed on a Fort save (DC 10 + 1/2 HD + Str modifier) or be knocked prone and washed  1d10×10 feet away from the gargantua, if this forced movement causes them to strike something solid, they take 1d6 points of damage per 10 feet traveled (nonlethal for landing in mud or earth, lethal damage for rocks).  Creatures the same size as the gargantua's base creature (max Huge) must succeed  on the same saving throw or be knocked prone and swept back 1d6×10 feet, taking damage as above. Creatures larger than the gargantua's base creature are affected as by a Bull Rush attempt (the gargantua uses its Strength modifier plus 4 points per size larger than Huge), these larger water-blasted victims take damage as above but are not knocked prone.


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## Cleon (Nov 30, 2010)

Shade said:


> I figure they'll be part of the usual "group conversion", but feel free to get the ball rolling (assuming we're done with the carrion crawler).




I'll make a start on the T & G then.

We're not quite done with the Crawler, we've got the extra feats to do.


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## Shade (Nov 30, 2010)

Updated.

We'll need CR adjustments for the two variant abilities you posted earlier.  Probably +1 for each.

For the carrion crawler...
Feats: Alertness (B), Combat Reflexes, Snatch (B), Track, 7 more (2 can be epic)

Epic Prowess, Epic Reflexes, Improved Initiative, Improved Multiattack, Multiattack...


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## Cleon (Nov 30, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> We'll need CR adjustments for the two variant abilities you posted earlier.  Probably +1 for each.




I suppose that'll do.



Shade said:


> For the carrion crawler...
> Feats: Alertness (B), Combat Reflexes, Snatch (B), Track, 7 more (2 can be epic)
> 
> Epic Prowess, Epic Reflexes, Improved Initiative, Improved Multiattack, Multiattack...




That's a good start. How about Knock-Down and Stand Still for the other two?

The crawler's swallow whole should do 12 acid damage according to our template.

Oh, and I've finished a first draft of the Gargoyle and Troll, will post 'em next.


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## Cleon (Nov 30, 2010)

*Mystaran Gargantua Gargoyle Working Draft*

*Mystaran Gargantua Gargoyle*
Gargantuan Monstrous Humanoid (Earth)
*Hit Dice:* 32d8+350 (496 hp)
*Initiative:* +5
*Speed:* 80 ft. (16 squares), fly 120 ft. (clumsy)
*Armor Class:* 20 (-4 size, +1 Dex, +13 natural), touch 7, flat-footed 19
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +32/+58
*Attack:* Claw +42 melee (4d6+14)
*Full Attack:* 2 claws +42 melee (4d6+14) and bite +40 melee (6d6+7) and gore +40 melee (6d6+7)
*Space/Reach:* 20 ft./20 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Swallow whole, trample 4d8+21
*Special Qualities:* Damage reduction 10/magic, darkvision 60 ft., freeze
*Saves:* Fort +28, Ref +19, Will +14
*Abilities:* Str 39, Dex 12, Con 30, Int 6, Wis 11, Cha 7
*Skills:* Hide +22* [_+28 against stone_], Listen +11, Spot +11
*Feats:* Alertness, Dire Charge, Epic Skill Focus (Hide), Epic Toughness, Epic Will, Hover (B), Improved Initiative, Improved Natural Attack (bite), Improved Natural Attack (claw), Improved Natural Attack (gore), Multiattack, Power Attack, Snatch (B)
*Environment:* Any
*Organization:* Solitary
*Challenge Rating:* 16
*Treasure:* Standard
*Alignment:* Usually chaotic evil
*Advancement:* 33-48 HD (Gargantuan); 49-96 HD (Colossal)
*Level Adjustment:* +5

*Freeze (Ex):* A gargoyle can hold itself so still it appears to be a statue. An observer must succeed on a DC 20 Spot check to notice the gargoyle is really alive.

*Swallow Whole (Ex):* A Mystaran gargantua gargoyle can swallow opponents up to three size smaller than itself by making a successful grapple check. Once inside, an opponent takes takes crushing damage equal to the creature's bite attack plus 8 points of acid damage from the creature's gizzard. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal 25 points of damage to the gizzard (AC 16). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out. A Mystaran gargantua gargoyle's interior can hold 2 Medium opponents, 8 Small opponents, and 32 Tiny or smaller opponents.

*Trample (Ex):* Reflex half DC 40. The save DC is Strength-based.

*Skills:* Gargoyles have a +2 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, and Spot checks.

*The Hide bonus increases by +8 when a gargoyle is concealed against a background of stone.


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## Cleon (Nov 30, 2010)

*Mystaran Gargantua Troll Working Draft*

*Mystaran Gargantua Troll*
Colossal Giant
*Hit Dice:* 48d8+576 (792 hp)
*Initiative:* +2
*Speed:* 60 ft. (12 squares)
*Armor Class:* 21 (-8 size, +2 Dex, +17 natural), touch 4, flat-footed 19
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +36/+66
*Attack:* Claw +47 melee (6d6+18/19-20 13d8+36 plus DC 52 Fort save or instant death)
*Full Attack:* 2 claws +47 melee (6d6+18/19-20 13d8+36 plus DC 52 Fort save or instant death) and bite +45 melee (6d6+18/19-20 13d8+36 plus DC 52 Fort save or instant death)
*Space/Reach:* 30 ft./30 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Rend 8d6+27, swallow whole, trample 6d8+27
*Special Qualities:* Darkvision 90 ft., low-light vision, regeneration 10, scent
*Saves:* Fort +39, Ref +18, Will +19
*Abilities:* Str 47, Dex 14, Con 35, Int 6, Wis 9, Cha 6
*Skills:* Listen +34, Spot +35
*Feats:* Cleave, Devastating Critical (bite), Devastating Critical (claw), Dire Charge, Epic Skill Focus (Listen), Epic Skill Focus (Spot), Epic Will, Great Cleave, Improved Critical (bite), Improved Critical (claw), Multiattack, Overwhelming Critical (bite), Overwhelming Critical (claw), Power Attack, Track, Weapon Focus (bite), Weapon Focus (claw)
*Environment:* Cold mountains
*Organization:* Solitary
*Challenge Rating:* 18
*Treasure:* Standard
*Alignment:* Usually chaotic evil
*Advancement:* By character class
*Level Adjustment:* +5

*Swallow Whole (Ex):* A Mystaran gargantua troll can swallow opponents up to three size smaller than itself by making a successful grapple check. Once inside, an opponent takes takes crushing damage equal to the creature's bite attack plus 12 points of acid damage from the creature's gizzard. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal 25 points of damage to the gizzard (AC 18). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out. A Mystaran gargantua troll's interior can hold 2 Large opponents, 8 Medium opponents, and 32 Small or smaller opponents.

*Rend (Ex):* If a Mystaran gargantua troll hits with both claw attacks, it latches onto the opponent’s body and tears the flesh. This attack automatically deals an additional 8d6+27 points of damage.

*Regeneration (Ex):* Fire and acid deal normal damage to a troll. If a troll loses a limb or body part, the lost portion regrows in 3d6 minutes. The creature can reattach the severed member instantly by holding it to the stump.

*Trample (Ex):* Reflex half DC 52. The save DC is Strength-based.


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## Cleon (Nov 30, 2010)

Hmm, running my eye over those the first impression is my rough draft of the Challenge Rating table is a bit low. That troll looks like a low 20s CR to me.

Then again, that troll might have a nasty Devastating Critical, but most 20th level characters have fortitude. The CR20 Tarrasque's epic DR, higher regeneration and spell resistance make it nastier.

Of course, if the Tarrasque was properly designed it'd have something _*far*_ nastier than six Toughness feats...


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## freyar (Dec 1, 2010)

Whew, that's a lot.

Just a comment on the waterblast.  Since it's such a powerful blast, wouldn't it make sense that the water itself does some bludgeoning damage?


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## Mortis (Dec 1, 2010)

Had a bit of time over the weekend, so here's my take on the spectre (from the Immortals Set).

[FONT=20 size=3D4]*Mystaran Gargantuan - Spectre*[/FONT]
*Gargantuan Undead (Incorporeal)*
*Hit Dice:* 56d12 (382 hp)
*Initiative:* +14
*Speed:* 80 ft. (16 squares), fly 160 ft. (perfect)
*Armor Class:* 18 (+6 Dex, +6 Deflection, -4 size), *touch* 18, *flat-footed* 12
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +28/--
*Attack:* Incorporeal touch +35 melee (4d8 plus energy drain/19-20)
*Full Attack:* Incorporeal touch +35 melee (4d8 plus energy drain/19-20)
*Space/Reach:* 20 ft./20 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Energy drain, create spawn
*Special Qualities:* Darkvision 60 ft., incorporeal traits, +4 turn resistance, sunlight powerlessness, undead traits, unnatural aura
*Saves:* *Fort* +18, *Ref* +24, *Will* +30
*Abilities:* *Str* --, *Dex* 22, *Con* --, *Int* 14, *Wis* 14, *Cha* 22
*Skills:* Hide +53, Intimidate +65, Knowledge (religion) +61, Listen +63, Search +61, Spot +63, Survival +2 (+4 following tracks)
*Feats:* Alertness, Blind-Fight, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Flyby Attack, Improved Critical (touch), Improved Flyby Attack, Improved Initiative, Mobility, Toughness(x7), Weapon Focus (touch)
*Epic Feats:* Superior Initiative
*Environment:* Any land or underground
*Organisation:* Solitary or gang (1 plus 1-10 spectres)
*Challenge Rating:* 24 
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always lawful evil
*Advancement:* 57-84 HD (Gargantuan), 85-112 HD (Colossal)
*Level Adjustment:* ---

_A massive, faintly luminous, ghostly humanoid swoops quickly towards you._

*COMBAT*
In close combat a spectre attacks with its numbing, life-draining touch. It makes full use of its incorporeal nature, moving through walls, ceilings, and floors as it attacks.

*Energy Drain (Su):* Living creatures hit by a gargantuan spectre's incorporeal touch attack gain 2 negative levels. The DC is 44 for the Fortitude save to remove a negative level. The save DC is Charisma-based. For each such negative level bestowed, the gargantuan spectre gains 5 temporary hit points.

*Create Spawn (Su):* Any humanoid slain by a gargantuan spectre becomes a (normal) spectre in 1d4 rounds. Spawn are under the command of the gargantuan spectre that created them and remain enslaved until its death. They do not possess any of the abilities thay had in life.

*Unnatural Aura (Su):* Animals, whether wild or domesticated, can sense the unnatural presence of a gargantuan spectre at a distance of 120 feet. They do not willingly approach nearer than that and panic if forced to do so; they remain paniced as long as they are within that range.

*Sunlight Powerlessness (Ex):* Spectres are powerless in natural sunlight (not merely a daylight spell) and flee from it. A spectre caught in sunlight cannot attack and can only take a single move or attack action in a round.

*A few points:*
1. Being an incorporeal undead obviously effected the template (no Str, Con, or natural armor increases) - as compensation I split the Ability increases (due to the additional HD) between Dex and Cha. I also kept it's perfect flight ability rather than reducing it to clumsy.
2. I upped its turn resistance to +4
3. I was tempted to up its Energy Drain to 4 negative levels until I calculated the Fortitude DC!
4. The version in my campaign has the following (non SRD) feats from Libris Mortis - Daunting Presence, Baleful Moan, Improved Energy Drain, Improved Toughness, Improved Turn Resistance, Life Drain, and Positive Energy Resistance. They replace the following feats from the stat block - Toughness(x7) [maybe add as a sidebar - 'if you have Libris Mortis...']
5. CR 24 seems rather low!!!

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Dec 1, 2010)

Updated.

I think our current CR modification needs work.  All the samples would appear to mop the floor with other creatures of their CR.

Mortis raises some good points about applying the template to incorporeal creatures.  We'll need to revise the template accordingly.  At the very least, the loss of the huge boost to Str and Con would lessen the CR adjustment for incorporeal critters.


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## Cleon (Dec 1, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> I think our current CR modification needs work.  All the samples would appear to mop the floor with other creatures of their CR.
> 
> Mortis raises some good points about applying the template to incorporeal creatures.  We'll need to revise the template accordingly.  At the very least, the loss of the huge boost to Str and Con would lessen the CR adjustment for incorporeal critters.




Ahem, there's another problem:



> *Creating a Mystaran Gargantua*
> "Mystaran gargantua" is a template that can be added to any any  *corporeal*, *living *creature of less than Colossal size (referred to  hereafter as the base creature). A Mystaran gargantua has all the base  creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here.



If I recall correctly, that's following the lead of the Mystaran Monstrus Compendium. We'll either have do drop the spectre or change the template.


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## Mortis (Dec 1, 2010)

Cleon said:


> If I recall correctly, that's following the lead of the Mystaran Monstrus Compendium. We'll either have do drop the spectre or change the template.



Caught this just before signing off and going to bed!

There are three incorporeal gargantua in the Immortals rulebook (spectre, wight & wraith IIRC) - they are all special followers/servants of Orcus along with a few corporeal undead. So I guess he created them rather than the wizard Gargantua.

It may be that we need two templates, although I would prefer to keep it to just the one.

Regards
Mortis

PS. Not to feel left out Demogorgon also gets some gargantua followers - all lizard/reptile based.


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## Cleon (Dec 1, 2010)

Mortis said:


> *A few points:*
> 1. Being an incorporeal undead obviously effected the template (no Str, Con, or natural armor increases) - as compensation I split the Ability increases (due to the additional HD) between Dex and Cha. I also kept it's perfect flight ability rather than reducing it to clumsy.
> 2. I upped its turn resistance to +4
> 3. I was tempted to up its Energy Drain to 4 negative levels until I calculated the Fortitude DC!
> ...




#1
Its increased HD are not Advancement _per se_, so I don't think gargantua's get ability increase from them. We could make that explicit in the Abilities entry:

*Abilities:* A Mystaran gargantua's ability scores are increased  according to the Mystaran Gargantua Modifiers Table. This includes adjustments for the creature's increased size and Hit Dice.

#2
With that many HD it doesn't need the increased turn resistance.

#3
I'd be tempted to give it at least one more level of energy drain, DC44 or not.

#4
At the very least it could be Epic Toughness for an extra 189 hit points.

#5
Agreed! The Challenge Rating table does need work - that's one reason we're doing some samples before finalizing it.

Now, I'm wondering whether we should add "Incorporeal Gargantua" and "Undead (or Construct?) Gargantuas" sub-entries, since the regular Mystaran Gargantua template doesn't work that well for them?


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## Cleon (Dec 1, 2010)

Mortis said:


> Caught this just before signing off and going to bed!
> 
> There are three incorporeal gargantua in the Immortals rulebook (spectre, wight & wraith IIRC) - they are all special followers/servants of Orcus along with a few corporeal undead. So I guess he created them rather than the wizard Gargantua.
> 
> ...




I'll have to look them up.

Anyhow, I'm thinking it'd be easier adding a sub-entry for Undead and Incorporeal Gargantua with a different ability-increase table and a few modifications to their special abilities.


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## Shade (Dec 2, 2010)

Mortis said:


> It may be that we need two templates, although I would prefer to keep it to just the one.




Agreed.



Cleon said:


> Anyhow, I'm thinking it'd be easier adding a sub-entry for Undead and Incorporeal Gargantua with a different ability-increase table and a few modifications to their special abilities.




Yeah, that's probably the best approach.  An underbar should suffice.

The main changes, as I see 'em, will be:

Boosting Dex and/or Cha instead of Str (incorporeal) and Con (both)
Improving deflection bonus rather than natural armor (incorporeal)
Boosting undead-specific attacks (energy drain, ability camage, etc.)
The manueverability should not drop for incorporeal creatures


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## Mortis (Dec 3, 2010)

Cleon said:


> I'll have to look them up.



Here's a quick list - the entries themselves are much bigger - just a line for each creature noting AC, HD attacks etc.

*Orcus*
Skeleton
Zombie
Ghoul
Wight - which is obviously not incorporeal despite my earlier post 
Wraith
Mummy
Spectre

*Demogorgon*
Spitting Cobra
Pit Viper
Gecko
Rattlesnake
Python
Horned Chameleon
Tuatara

*In response to your comments*
#1 As a template that adds HD grants additionial skill points and feats, I assumed that the same applies to ability scores - could be wrong though.
#2 Well it doesn't *need* the additional, but... 
#3 3 levels might work, I was initailly thinking of 4. Although I guess at that CR (whatever it ends up as) a lot of PCs will have protection against energy drain.
#4 It does have enough Epic Feat slots doesn't it 

Regarding incorporeal creatures/undead etc.
Maybe a note that incorporeal creatures add the modifier to Dex rather than Str. Likewise for deflection in regards to natural armor.

Undead could add to Cha rather than Con.

Although incorporeal undead will obviously get both bonuses to their AC.

Regards
Mortis


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## Cleon (Dec 4, 2010)

Shade said:


> The main changes, as I see 'em, will be:
> 
> Boosting Dex and/or Cha instead of Str (incorporeal) and Con (both)
> Improving deflection bonus rather than natural armor (incorporeal)
> ...




I'm thinking some of those should be folded in the standard template.

Ability damage (which is +1 letter better than ability camage ) is already included in the Increased Damage special ability

I'd rather add Energy Drain and other attacks to the Increased Damage ability too. My first though was simply doubling the energy drain, like we double the Gargantua's regeneration and fast healing. That could get rather nasty though...

Similarly, we could say the flying manoeuvrability remains unchanged for creatures that fly using (Su) or (Sp) means, including incorporeal creatures.


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## Cleon (Dec 4, 2010)

Mortis said:


> Here's a quick list - the entries themselves are much bigger - just a line for each creature noting AC, HD attacks etc.




Checking the Immortal Set the Orcus's gargantuan undead and Demogorgon's gargantuan reptiles just apply the Companion set's gargantua rules to standard undead and (giant) reptiles, so not much to go on their.



Mortis said:


> *In response to your comments*
> #1 As a template that adds HD grants additionial skill points and feats, I assumed that the same applies to ability scores - could be wrong though.



Well it doesn't say that anywhere in the SRDs "Reading a Template" that I can see.

The closest I can find to a rule is the *Ability Score Improvement* entry:



> Treat monster Hit Dice the same as character level for determining  ability score increases. This only applies to Hit Dice increases,  monsters do not gain ability score increases for levels they "already  reached" with their racial Hit Dice, since these adjustments are  included in their basic ability scores.



Now, the Hit Dice the sample Gargantua are their "racial Hit Dice" aren't they? In which case, they shouldn't get ability increase on top of what the template gives them.



Mortis said:


> #2 Well it doesn't *need* the additional, but...
> *SNIP*
> 
> Regarding incorporeal creatures/undead etc.
> ...




I'm toying with the idea of giving all the Undead Gargantuas Unholy Toughness, and the Construct Gargantua's a special "extra bonus hit points" special quality...

Which they both _really really_ need, obviously.


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## Shade (Dec 7, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Ability damage (which is +1 letter better than ability camage ) is already included in the Increased Damage special ability




Well that one was easy.  



Cleon said:


> I'd rather add Energy Drain and other attacks to the Increased Damage ability too. My first though was simply doubling the energy drain, like we double the Gargantua's regeneration and fast healing. That could get rather nasty though...




Yeah, too nasty.  In fact, I'm not convince energy drain should increase.  Bigger undead don't necessarily drain more levels (in fact, higher-CR undead often don't drain more levels than weaker ones).



Cleon said:


> Similarly, we could say the flying manoeuvrability remains unchanged for creatures that fly using (Su) or (Sp) means, including incorporeal creatures.




That makes good sense!



Cleon said:


> I'm toying with the idea of giving all the Undead Gargantuas Unholy Toughness, and the Construct Gargantua's a special "extra bonus hit points" special quality...
> 
> Which they both _really really_ need, obviously.




Yeah...probably not.


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## Mortis (Dec 8, 2010)

Shade said:


> In fact, I'm not convince energy drain should increase.  Bigger undead don't necessarily drain more levels (in fact, higher-CR undead often don't drain more levels than weaker ones).



Agreed, the extra HD bump up the saves to make even the lower amount nasty to survive.

I also agree with leaving flight manouevrabilty as is if Su or Sp.

Are we agreed on Dex using the Str increase and Cha using the Con increase? After suggesting that I'm beginning to think that it's probably too much of a bonus for Dex. Maybe both Dex and Cha could use the Con rate?

Regarding the suggestion of an 'improved deflection bonus' - do any other creatures have something similar that we can borrow from? If not, something based on their base Reflx save or HD?

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Dec 8, 2010)

Mortis said:


> Are we agreed on Dex using the Str increase and Cha using the Con increase? After suggesting that I'm beginning to think that it's probably too much of a bonus for Dex. Maybe both Dex and Cha could use the Con rate?




Yeah, the Str boost is probably too much.  The Con bonus for both Dex and Cha seems a reasonable extrapolation.



Mortis said:


> Regarding the suggestion of an 'improved deflection bonus' - do any other creatures have something similar that we can borrow from? If not, something based on their base Reflx save or HD?




Time for Shade to go hunting.  It's Precedent Season.


----------



## freyar (Dec 9, 2010)

Good luck!


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## Cleon (Dec 10, 2010)

Shade said:


> Yeah, the Str boost is probably too much.  The Con bonus for both Dex and Cha seems a reasonable extrapolation.




I'm not so sure about that, cConsider the difference between the SRD's Wraith and Dread Wraith:

Wraith: Medium 5HD Undead; Str Ø, Dex 16, Con Ø, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 15
Dread Wraith: Large 16 HD Undead; Str Ø, Dex 28, Con Ø, Int 17, Wis 18, Cha 24

The Dread's got 3.2 times the HD, +12 Dex, +3 Int, +4 Wis and +9 Cha compared to the regular Wraith and is a size larger. That's a Dex-boost higher than the Charisma-boost.

Our Gargantua is three sizes larger and has 8 times the HD, so maxing out at +24 Dex doesn't seem _that_ bad.

However, instead of the regular Gargantua's 100% more Str than Con I'd prefer having the ghostly versions top off at 50% more Dex than Cha, e.g.:


*Incorporeal Mystaran Gargantua Modifiers Table*
Size of . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Ability. Trample
Base Creature .. Dex . Cha . Area .. Damage . Damage
Fine . . . . . . +12 .. +10 .. ×6 .. +1d10 . . . 2d8
Diminutive . . . +14 .. +10 .. ×5 . . +2d4 . . . 2d8
Tiny . . . . . . +16 .. +10 .. ×5 . . +1d8 . . . 2d8
Small. . . . . . +16 .. +10 .. ×4 . . +1d6 . . . 2d8
Medium . . . . . +18 .. +12 .. ×4 . . +1d8 . . . 3d8
Large . . .. . . +18 .. +12 .. ×3 .. +1d10 . . . 4d8
Huge . . . . . . +18 .. +12 .. ×3 .. +1d12 . . . 6d8
Gargantuan . . . +18 .. +12 .. ×2 . . +2d6 . . . 8d8
Colossal . . . . +18 .. +12 .. ×2 . . +2d6 . .. 12d8

What thinks ye?


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## freyar (Dec 12, 2010)

Looks fine enough, but always so complex!


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## Cleon (Dec 13, 2010)

freyar said:


> Looks fine enough, but always so complex!




You say that like needless complexity is a bad thing... 

Come to think of it, there is another change we should make to that Table: an incorporeal creature _probably_ shouldn't have a Trample attack.


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## Shade (Dec 14, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Come to think of it, there is another change we should make to that Table: an incorporeal creature _probably_ shouldn't have a Trample attack.




Probably true.  

Updated.

I was unable to find any precedents for improving existing deflection bonuses.  Shall we add a column to Cleon's table?   Maybe deflection bonus improves by the same amount as its size modifier?


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## Cleon (Dec 15, 2010)

Shade said:


> Probably true.
> 
> Updated.




Maybe it can only Trample other Incorporeal creatures? 

All spooks fear the tread of Mega-Spectre the Ghost-Crusher. 



Shade said:


> I was unable to find any precedents for improving existing deflection bonuses.  Shall we add a column to Cleon's table?   Maybe deflection bonus improves by the same amount as its size modifier?




We could add a column but it's already getting a hefty boost from the higher Charisma and Dexterity.

Speaking of which, I'm getting concerned about the higher Charisma. If the gargantua has Cha-based SAs as lots of incorporeal Undead do - or if it has a sorcerer casting - it could easily throw off the creature's CR balance.

Maybe we should give it a deflection bonus column and cut the Charisma bonus?


----------



## Mortis (Dec 15, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Maybe we should give it a deflection bonus column and cut the Charisma bonus?



By 'cut' do you mean reduce or completely get rid of?

I could agree with the first but not with the second option.

Regards
Mortis


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## freyar (Dec 15, 2010)

Think I'm with Mortis here.


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## Shade (Dec 15, 2010)

Thirded.


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## Cleon (Dec 16, 2010)

Mortis said:


> By 'cut' do you mean reduce or completely get rid of?
> 
> I could agree with the first but not with the second option.
> 
> ...




Actually I hadn't quite decided, but was leaning toward a lower Cha bonus rather than no Cha bonus.


----------



## Mortis (Dec 17, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Actually I hadn't quite decided, but was leaning toward a lower Cha bonus rather than no Cha bonus.




How about half the Con bonus to Cha?

<edit>
Another thought - instead of the Improved Deflection ability how about something like:

*Intangibility: * The essence of an incorporeal Mystaran gargantuan is more diffuse than normal incorporeals. This results in a miss chance of 75% rather than the standard 50%

Mortis


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## Cleon (Dec 17, 2010)

Mortis said:


> How about half the Con bonus to Cha?




So +4 for Fine to Small, +6 for Medium or bigger base creatures?



Mortis said:


> <edit>
> Another thought - instead of the Improved Deflection ability how about something like:
> 
> *Intangibility: * The essence of an incorporeal Mystaran gargantuan is more diffuse than normal incorporeals. This results in a miss chance of 75% rather than the standard 50%
> ...




Now that's an interesting idea.

Hmm, I think I prefer an increased deflection bonus.

Intangibility would be of no use againsy an opponent with force or _ghost touch_ attacks, and the eightfold HD follows the normal HD advancement, suggesting they have a normal density of "ghost stuff" rather than being more diffuse.


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## freyar (Dec 18, 2010)

Half the Con bonus works for me.

I'd lean toward increasing the deflection bonus as well.  Could just go with 2xCha modifier.


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## Cleon (Dec 19, 2010)

freyar said:


> Half the Con bonus works for me.
> 
> I'd lean toward increasing the deflection bonus as well.  Could just go with 2xCha modifier.




That'd work for me, although I'd like to run some samples to see how the AC plays out.

We have still got some work to do on the regular template.

1) We're allowing "Epic Upgrade" of the base creature's feats (e.g. Epic Reflexes instead of Lightning Reflexes".*Feats:*  A Mystaran gargantua retains the feats of the base  creature and gains addition feats according to its increased hit dice. If it gains Epic Feats, it can substitute Epic equivalents of the base creature's feats instead of retaining the base creature's feats (e.g. it could get Epic Toughness instead of Toughness, or Epic Skill Focus (Listen) and Epic Skill Focus (Spot) instead of Alertness).

In addition, it gains Snatch as a bonus feat. If the Mystaran gargantua  has a fly speed it also gains Hover as a bonus feat.​2) We still need to modify the Challenge Rating table. It might make sense to finish the incorporeal and undead samples before we start on that.


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## Shade (Dec 20, 2010)

freyar said:


> Half the Con bonus works for me.
> 
> I'd lean toward increasing the deflection bonus as well.  Could just go with 2xCha modifier.




That works for me!



Cleon said:


> We have still got some work to do on the regular template.
> 
> 1) We're allowing "Epic Upgrade" of the base creature's feats (e.g. Epic Reflexes instead of Lightning Reflexes".
> 
> In addition, it gains Snatch as a bonus feat. If the Mystaran gargantua  has a fly speed it also gains Hover as a bonus feat.




I'll add all that.




Cleon said:


> 2) We still need to modify the Challenge Rating table. It might make sense to finish the incorporeal and undead samples before we start on that.




Yeah, lets work those first.


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## freyar (Dec 20, 2010)

Ok, what are the samples again?


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## Shade (Dec 20, 2010)

The Homebrews entry currently includes the carrion crawler, gargoyle, and troll.

Mortis whipped up a spectre, which led to the tinkering with the template for incorporeal creatures.

We discussed a carp upthread.

Echohawks index also lists mummy, skeleton, wight, wraith, zombie, treant, and a bunch of snakes and lizards!


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## freyar (Dec 21, 2010)

Dear heavens!  Let's make sure we're finished with the first four we have, add the carp, and maybe one undead.  How about a mummy or a wight?  I guess we could add the treant, too, if we need a plant.


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## Cleon (Dec 21, 2010)

Shade said:


> The Homebrews entry currently includes the carrion crawler, gargoyle, and troll.
> 
> Mortis whipped up a spectre, which led to the tinkering with the template for incorporeal creatures.
> 
> We discussed a carp upthread.




Well we've just done a conversion of the MC6 Giant Carp, so we can now Gargantualise it!



Shade said:


> Echohawks index also lists mummy, skeleton, wight, wraith, zombie, treant, and a bunch of snakes and lizards!




Here's the stats for the Master's set Gargantuas:

*Chameleon:* AC: 2; HD: 40**; MV: 240’; THACO: 3; AT: 2 bites; Dmg: 4d8/4d6; XP: 3,250
*Cobra:*AC: 7; HD: 8**; MV: 180’; THACO: 12; AT: 1 bite; Dmg: 3d4 + poison; XP: 20,750
*Gecko:* AC: 5; HD: 25*; MV: 240’; THACO: 3; AT: 1 bite; Dmg: 4d8; XP: 1,750
*Ghoul:* AC: 6; HD: 16**; MV: 180’; THACO: 7; AT: 2 claw/1 bite; Dmg: 3d4/3d4/3d4 + paralysis; XP: 9,500
*Mummy:* AC: 3; HD: 41***; MV: 120’; THACO: 2; AT: 1 touch; Dmg: 4d12 + disease; XP: 20,750
*Pit* *Viper:* AC: 6; HD: 16**; MV: 180’; THACO: 7; AT: 1 bite; Dmg: 2d8 + poison; XP: 28,500
*Python:* AC: 6; HD: 40**; MV: 180’; THACO: 2; AT: 1 bite/1 squeeze; Dmg: 2d8/4d8; XP: 3,250
*Rattler:* AC: 5; HD: 32**; MV: 240’; THACO: 2; AT: 2 bites; Dmg: 2d8/2d8 + poison; XP: 14,750
*Skeleton:* AC: 7; HD: 8*; MV: 120’; THACO: 12; AT: 1 weapon; Dmg: 4d6; XP: 1,200
*Spectre:* AC: 2; HD: 48***; MV: 300’; THACO: 2; AT: 1 touch; Dmg: 4d8 + energy drain (2); XP: 35,500
*Tuatara:* AC: 4; HD: 48*; MV: 180’; THACO: 2; AT: 2 claw/1 bite; Dmg: 2d8/2d8/6d8; XP: 26,750
*Wight:* AC: 5; HD: 24**; MV: 180’; THACO: 3; AT: 1 touch; Dmg: 1d4 + energy drain (1); XP: 8,750
*Wraith:* AC: 3; HD: 32***; MV: 240’; THACO: 2; AT: 1 touch; Dmg: 4d6 + energy drain (1); XP: 19,500
*Zombie:* AC: 8; HD: 16*; MV: 180’; THACO: 7; AT: 1 claw; Dmg: 4d8; XP: 2,300

I would rather do a bit more work on the Undead sub-template before doing those samples, but I'm game to start on the other beasties.

Of the SRD monsters, the Monitor Lizard is closest to the Giant Chameleon/Gecko/Tuatara, so I'll gargantualise that.

The Cobra/Pit Viper/Rattler are basically Gargantua versions of three different sizes of Viper Snake in 3E terms. I'll just Gargantualise a Tiny Viper and leave it at that.

The Python's a 5 HD Constrictor Snake, but I'd rather Gargantualise a standard 3 HD constrictor.

Give me a while and I'll stat them up...


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## Shade (Dec 21, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Well we've just done a conversion of the MC6 Giant Carp, so we can now Gargantualise it!




I think you may have just reinvented the "Super Size It" slogan.  



Cleon said:


> Of the SRD monsters, the Monitor Lizard is closest to the Giant Chameleon/Gecko/Tuatara, so I'll gargantualise that.
> 
> The Cobra/Pit Viper/Rattler are basically Gargantua versions of three different sizes of Viper Snake in 3E terms. I'll just Gargantualise a Tiny Viper and leave it at that.
> 
> The Python's a 5 HD Constrictor Snake, but I'd rather Gargantualise a standard 3 HD constrictor.




That's a good approach, and I think we should do a treant as well, as freyar mentioned upthread.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 21, 2010)

Shade said:


> I think you may have just reinvented the "Super Size It" slogan.




I'm over-brimming with creativity, me. 



Shade said:


> That's a good approach, and I think we should do a treant as well, as freyar mentioned upthread.




I changed the Tiny Viper to a Small Viper, since I liked them better with 12 HD. I'll post the stats next.

EDIT: Oh, and I like the Treant too. Let's have a shot at that later. What's the source of the Gargantua Treant again? It's not in the Companion or Masters Sets.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 21, 2010)

*Mystaran Gargantua Lizard, Monitor*
Gargantua Animal
*Hit Dice:* 24d8+216 (324 hp)
*Initiative:* +1
*Speed:* 60 ft. (12 squares), swim 60 ft.
*Armor Class:* 21 (-4 size, +1 Dex, +12 natural), touch 7, flat-footed 20
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +18/+45
*Attack:* Bite +30 melee (4d8+22/19-20)
*Full Attack:* Bite +30 melee (4d8+22/19-20)
*Space/Reach:* 20 ft./15 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Trample 4d8+22, swallow whole
*Special Qualities:* Fast healing 3, low-light vision
*Saves:* Fort +27, Ref +16, Will +9
*Abilities:* Str 41, Dex 13, Con 29, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
*Skills:* Climb +19, Hide +6*, Listen +9, Move Silently +10, Spot +9, Swim +23
*Feats:* Alertness, Cleave, Epic Fortitude, Fast Healing, Improved Critical (bite), Power Attack, Skill Focus (Hide), Stealthy, Weapon Focus (bite)
*Environment:* Warm forests
*Organization:* Solitary
*Challenge Rating:* 10
*Advancement:* 25-40 HD (Gargantuan)
*Level Adjustment:* —

*Swallow Whole (Ex):* A Mystaran gargantua monitor lizard can swallow opponents up to three size smaller than itself by making a successful grapple check. Once inside, an opponent takes takes crushing damage equal to the creature's bite attack plus 8 points of acid damage from the creature's gizzard. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal 25 points of damage to the gizzard (AC 16). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out. A Mystaran gargantua monitor lizard's interior can hold 2 Medium opponents, 8 Small opponents, and 32 Tiny or smaller opponents.

*Trample (Ex):* Reflex half DC 37. The save DC is Strength-based.

*Skills:* A monitor lizard has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line. Monitor lizards have a +4 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks. *In forested or overgrown areas, the Hide bonus improves to +8.

*Mystaran Gargantua Snake, Constrictor*
Gargantuan Animal
*Hit Dice:* 24d8+228 (336 hp)
*Initiative:* +6
*Speed:* 40 ft. (8 squares), climb 40 ft., swim 40 ft.
*Armor Class:* 19 (-4 size, +2 Dex, +11 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 17
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +18/+45
*Attack:* Bite +5 melee (3d6+22)
*Full Attack:* Bite +5 melee (3d6+22)
*Space/Reach:* 20 ft./15 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Constrict 2d6+22, improved grab, trample 4d8+22, swallow whole
*Special Qualities:* Scent
*Saves:* Fort +21, Ref +16, Will +11
*Abilities:* Str 41, Dex 15, Con 25, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
*Skills:* Balance +10, Climb +26, Hide +18, Listen +10, Move Silently +4, Spot +10, Swim +23
*Feats:* Alertness, Endurance, Improved Initiative, Improved Natural Attack (bite), Epic Toughness×2, Skill Focus (Hide), Stealthy, Weapon Focus (bite)
*Environment:* Warm forests
*Organization:* Solitary
*Challenge Rating:* 10
*Advancement:* 4-5 HD (Medium); 6-10 HD (Large)
*Level Adjustment:* —

*Constrict (Ex):* On a successful grapple check, a Mystaran gargantua constrictor snake deals 2d6+22 points of damage.

*Improved Grab (Ex):* To use this ability, a Mystaran gargantua constrictor snake must hit with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict.

*Swallow Whole (Ex):* A Mystaran gargantua constrictor snake can swallow opponents up to three size smaller than itself by making a successful grapple check. Once inside, an opponent takes takes crushing damage equal to the creature's bite attack plus 8 points of acid damage from the creature's gizzard. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal 25 points of damage to the gizzard (AC 15). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out. A Mystaran gargantua constrictor snake's interior can hold 2 Medium opponents, 8 Small opponents, and 32 Tiny or smaller opponents.

*Trample (Ex):* Reflex half DC 37. The save DC is Strength-based.

*Skills:* Snakes have a +4 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, and Spot checks and a +8 racial bonus on Balance and Climb checks. A snake can always choose to take 10 on a Climb check, even if rushed or threatened. Snakes use either their Strength modifier or Dexterity modifier for Climb checks, whichever is higher. A snake has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.

*Mystaran Gargantua Snake, Viper*
Huge Animal
*Hit Dice:* 12d8+60 (114 hp)
*Initiative:* +6
*Speed:* 40 ft. (8 squares), climb 40 ft., swim 40 ft.
*Armor Class:* 18 (-2 size, +2 Dex, +8 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 16
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +9/+25
*Attack:* Bite +16 melee (1d8+12 plus poison)
*Full Attack:* Bite +16 melee (1d8+12 plus poison)
*Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Poison, trample 3d8+12
*Special Qualities:* Scent
*Saves:* Fort +13, Ref +10, Will +5
*Abilities:* Str 26, Dex 15, Con 21, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
*Skills:* Balance +10, Climb +21, Hide +13, Listen +8, Move Silently +7, Spot +8, Swim +16
*Feats:* Improved Initiative, Skill Focus (Hide), Run, Stealthy, Weapon Focus (bite)
*Environment:* Temperate marshes
*Organization:* Solitary
*Challenge Rating:* 6
*Advancement:* —
*Level Adjustment:* —

*Poison (Ex):* A Mystaran gargantua viper snake has a poisonous bite that deals initial and secondary damage of 2d6 Con with a DC21 Fortitude save. The save DC is Constitution-based.

*Trample (Ex):* Reflex half DC 24. The save DC is Strength-based.

*Note:* based on the Snake, Small Viper.


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## freyar (Dec 22, 2010)

That is quite a lot of text!


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## Shade (Dec 22, 2010)

Those look good.  I was a bit confused on the epic feats (why not Epic Skill Focus (Hide), for example), but I see the ranks don't let it qualify.  Do you think DMs might find that confusing?   

Perhaps the following clarification?

Feats: A Mystaran gargantua retains the feats of the base creature and gains additional feats according to its increased hit dice. If it gains epic feats, it can substitute epic equivalents of the base creature's feats instead of retaining the base creature's feats, assuming it meets the prerequisites.  For example, the Mystaran gargantua constrictor snake below may replace its Toughness feat with Epic Toughness, but cannot replace Alertness with Epic Skill Focus (Listen) and Epic Skill Focus (Spot), because it lacks the 20 rank prerequisite in those skills.

In addition, it gains Snatch as a bonus feat. If the Mystaran gargantua has a fly speed it also gains Hover as a bonus feat.


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## Cleon (Dec 22, 2010)

freyar said:


> That is quite a lot of text!




It's not much for three beasties. I've written more for one critter!


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## Cleon (Dec 22, 2010)

Shade said:


> Those look good.  I was a bit confused on the epic feats (why not Epic Skill Focus (Hide), for example), but I see the ranks don't let it qualify.  Do you think DMs might find that confusing?
> 
> Perhaps the following clarification?
> 
> ...




Yes, that 'tis an improvement.

I'd use "provided it meets" instead of "assuming it meets".

It's debatable whether the example is necessary, but I think it's better with it.


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## Shade (Dec 22, 2010)

If you don't want to debate, I'm happy.  

Updated.


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## freyar (Dec 28, 2010)

Seems like an improvement to me, too.


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## Cleon (Dec 29, 2010)

freyar said:


> Seems like an improvement to me, too.




So back to the samples?

Add a corporeal Undead (maybe a Wight) and say that's enough?


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## Mortis (Dec 29, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Add a corporeal Undead (maybe a Wight) and say that's enough?



I/we need to update the Spectre with the recent changes.

Also, being rather paranoid, do we need to state that the template only applies to a creature's racial HD if it has levels in a class?

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Dec 30, 2010)

Mortis said:


> Also, being rather paranoid, do we need to state that the template only applies to a creature's racial HD if it has levels in a class?




Good idea.  We don't want anyone abusing the template.


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## Cleon (Dec 30, 2010)

Mortis said:


> Also, being rather paranoid, do we need to state that the template only applies to a creature's racial HD if it has levels in a class?




I thought we already had. Certainly the HD multiplier should only apply to the base creature's racial HD.

What happens to creature of a "Zero HD NPC/PC race" though?

e.g. if you Gigantize a 1st level halfling fighter, it would only have 1 HD if you don't multiply its class HD.

I suggest saying zero HD Character-classes get 8 HD of their type, plus their class HD. (i.e. said halfling would have 8 levels in Humanoid and 1 level in fighter, for 8d8+1d10 Hit Dice).


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## Shade (Dec 30, 2010)

Cleon said:


> I thought we already had. Certainly the HD multiplier should only apply to the base creature's racial HD.
> 
> What happens to creature of a "Zero HD NPC/PC race" though?
> 
> ...




Ugh...no!   I vote no racial Hit Dice = doesn't qualify for template.


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## Cleon (Dec 31, 2010)

Shade said:


> Ugh...no!   I vote no racial Hit Dice = doesn't qualify for template.




But... but... then how can I have my Gargantuan Elf PC? 

Only kidding, not allowing "no racial HD" is a workable fix.


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## Shade (Jan 4, 2011)

Whew!  

Updated.

So we still need the sample giant carp, wight, and spectre.  What else?


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## Cleon (Jan 4, 2011)

Shade said:


> Whew!
> 
> Updated.




With the exception of the Carrion Crawler, all the samples have trample damage dice that don't match the values in the *Mystaran Gargantua Modifiers Table*.

The table says the trample damages should by Gargoyle 3d8+21, Troll 4d8+27, Monitor Lizard and Constrictor 3d8+22 and Viper 2d8+12, but the samples' trample damage is 1 step higher.

Either change the table and make the Gargantuan Carrion Crawler 6d8+21 or reduce the samples' trample damage.



Shade said:


> So we still need the sample giant carp, wight, and spectre.  What else?




We haven't done the Treant yet. How's this:

*Mystaran Gargantua Treant*
Colossal Plant
*Hit Dice:* 56d8+896 (1148 hp)
*Initiative:* –1
*Speed:* 60 ft. (12 squares)
*Armor Class:* 30 (–8 size, –1 Dex, +29 natural), touch 1, flat-footed 30
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +42/+79
*Attack:* Slam +12 melee (12d6+21/19-20 25d6+42 plus DC 59 Fort save or instant death)
*Full Attack:* 2 slams +12 melee (12d6+21/19-20 25d6+42 plus DC 59 Fort save or instant death)
*Space/Reach:* 40 ft./40 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Animate trees, double damage against objects, trample 8d6+31
*Special Qualities:* Damage reduction 10/slashing, low-light vision, plant traits, vulnerability to fire
*Saves:* Fort +46, Ref +23, Will +27
*Abilities:* Str 53, Dex 8, Con 43, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 12
*Skills:* Diplomacy +26, Hide +23*, Intimidate +38, Knowledge (nature) +26, Listen +40, Sense Motive +30, Spot +40, Survival +22 (+24 aboveground)
*Feats:* Cleave, Devastating Critical (slam), Dire Charge, Epic Reflexes, Epic Skill Focus (Hide), Epic Skill Focus (Intimidate), Epic Skill Focus (Listen), Epic Skill Focus (Spot), Epic Will, Great Cleave, Improved Critical (slam), Improved Natural Attack (slam), Improved Sunder, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Overwhelming Critical (slam), Power Attack, Track, Weapon Focus (slam)
*Environment:* Temperate forests
*Organization:* Solitary
*Challenge Rating:* 27
*Treasure:* Standard
*Alignment:* Usually neutral good
*Advancement:* 57–168 HD (Colossal)
*Level Adjustment:* +5

*Animate Trees (Sp):* A mystaran gargantua treant can animate trees within 180 feet at will, controlling up to two trees at a time. It takes 1 full round for a normal tree to uproot itself. Thereafter it moves at a speed of 10 feet and fights as a gargantua treant in all respects. Animated trees lose their ability to move if the treant that animated them is incapacitated or moves out of range. The ability is otherwise similar to _liveoak_ (caster level 12th). Animated trees have the same vulnerability to fire that a treant has.

*Double Damage against Objects (Ex):* A treant or animated tree that makes a full attack against an object or structure deals double damage.

*Trample (Ex):* Reflex DC 59 half. The save DC is Strength-based.

*Skills:* *Treants have a +16 racial bonus on Hide checks made in forested areas.


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## Cleon (Jan 4, 2011)

Here's a go at the Carp:

*Mystaran Gargantua Giant Carp*
Colossal Animal (Aquatic)
*Hit Dice:* 64d8+832 (1120 hp)
*Initiative:* +0
*Speed:* Swim 100 ft. (20 squares)
*Armor Class:* 26 (-8 size, +24 natural), touch 2, flat-footed 26
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +48/+87
*Attack:* Bite +13 melee (12d6+34/19-20)
*Full Attack:* Bite +13 melee (12d6+34/19-20)
*Space/Reach:* 40 ft./30 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Improved grab, swallow whole, waterblast
*Special Qualities:* Damage reduction 12/—, fast healing 12, low-light vision
*Saves:* Fort +47, Ref +34, Will +21
*Abilities:* Str 56, Dex 10, Con 36, Int 1, Wis 10, Cha 1
*Skills:* Listen +34, Spot +33, Swim +31
*Feats:* Cleave, Damage Reduction×4, Diehard, Endurance, Epic Endurance, Fast Healing×4, Great Constitution×3, Great Cleave, Great Strength×3, Improved Critical (bite), Improved Natural Attack (bite), Power Attack
*Environment:* Temperate and warm aquatic
*Organization:* Solitary
*Challenge Rating:* 18 (+ water blast adjustment)
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 65-216 HD (Colossal)
*Level Adjustment:* —

*Improved Grab (Ex):* To use this ability, a giant carp must hit with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can attempt to swallow the foe the following round.

*Swallow Whole (Ex):* A Mystaran gargantua giant carp can try to swallow a grabbed opponent up to Gargantuan size by making a successful grapple check. Once inside, the opponent takes 12d6+34 points of crushing damage plus 12 points of acid damage per round from the carp's gizzard. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal 25 points of damage to the gizzard (AC 22). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out. A Huge carp's interior can hold 2 Gargantuan, 8 Huge, 32 Large, or 128 Medium or smaller opponents.

*Waterblast (Ex):* A Mystaran gargantua giant carp can create a powerful blast of water as a standard action. The gargantua must be in water at least 20 feet deep to use this special attack. A waterblast can affect an 800 ft. line or a 400 ft. cone (1000 ft line or 500 ft. cone for a carp with 128+ HD). All flames in the area of the waterblast are extinguished. Creatures within the area of the waterblast are affected as follows:

Any creature smaller than Huge sized must succeed on a DC 65 Fort save  or be knocked prone and washed 1d10×10 feet away from the gargantua, if this forced movement causes them to strike something solid, they take 1d6 points of damage per 10 feet traveled (nonlethal for landing in mud or earth, lethal damage for rocks). Huge-sized creatures must succeed on the same saving throw or be knocked prone and swept back 1d6×10 feet, taking damage as above. Creatures larger than Huge sized are affected as by a bull rush maneuver (the gargantua uses its Strength modifier plus 4 points per size larger than Huge, or +31 for a typical Mystaran gargantua giant carp), these larger water-blasted victims take damage as above but are not knocked prone.

*Skills:* A giant carp has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.


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## Mortis (Jan 5, 2011)

Here's the amended spectre, I think I've changed everything that I should of ;-)

[FONT=20 size=3D4]*Mystaran Gargantuan - Spectre*[/FONT]
*Gargantuan Undead (Incorporeal)*
*Hit Dice:* 56d12+180 (544 hp)
*Initiative:* +20
*Speed:* 80 ft. (16 squares), fly 160 ft. (perfect)
*Armor Class:* 26 (+12 Dex, +8 Deflection, -4 size), *touch* 26, *flat-footed* 14
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +28/--
*Attack:* Incorporeal touch +41 melee (4d8 plus energy drain/19-20)
*Full Attack:* Incorporeal touch +41 melee (4d8 plus energy drain/19-20)
*Space/Reach:* 20 ft./20 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Energy drain, create spawn
*Special Qualities:* Darkvision 60 ft., incorporeal traits, +2 turn resistance, sunlight powerlessness, undead traits, unnatural aura
*Saves:* *Fort* +18, *Ref* +30, *Will* +30
*Abilities:* *Str* --, *Dex* 34 [+12], *Con* --, *Int* 14, *Wis* 14, *Cha* 27 [+5]
*Skills:* Hide +59, Intimidate +67, Knowledge (religion) +61, Listen +71, Search +61, Spot +71, Survival +2 (+4 following tracks)
*Feats:* Blind-Fight, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Flyby Attack, Improved Critical (touch), Improved Flyby Attack, Improved Initiative, Mobility, Weapon Focus (touch)
*Epic Feats:* Epic Skill Focus (Listen), Epic Skill Focus (Spot), Epic Toughness(x6), Superior Initiative
*Environment:* Any land or underground
*Organisation:* Solitary or gang (1 plus 1-10 spectres)
*Challenge Rating:* 24 
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always lawful evil
*Advancement:* 57-84 HD (Gargantuan), 85-112 HD (Colossal)
*Level Adjustment:* ---

_A massive, faintly luminous, ghostly humanoid swoops quickly towards you._

*COMBAT*
In close combat a spectre attacks with its numbing, life-draining touch. It makes full use of its incorporeal nature, moving through walls, ceilings, and floors as it attacks.

*Energy Drain (Su):* Living creatures hit by a gargantuan spectre's incorporeal touch attack gain 2 negative levels. The DC is 46 for the Fortitude save to remove a negative level. The save DC is Charisma-based. For each such negative level bestowed, the gargantuan spectre gains 5 temporary hit points.

*Create Spawn (Su):* Any humanoid slain by a gargantuan spectre becomes a (normal) spectre in 1d4 rounds. Spawn are under the command of the gargantuan spectre that created them and remain enslaved until its death. They do not possess any of the abilities thay had in life.

*Unnatural Aura (Su):* Animals, whether wild or domesticated, can sense the unnatural presence of a gargantuan spectre at a distance of 120 feet. They do not willingly approach nearer than that and panic if forced to do so; they remain paniced as long as they are within that range.

*Sunlight Powerlessness (Ex):* Spectres are powerless in natural sunlight (not merely a daylight spell) and flee from it. A spectre caught in sunlight cannot attack and can only take a single move or attack action in a round.

*A few points:*
1. Kept Turn Resistance as +2
2. Kept ENergy Drain to 2 levels
3. The version in my campaign has the following (non SRD) feats from Libris Mortis - Daunting Presence, Baleful Moan, Improved Energy Drain, Improved Toughness, Improved Turn Resistance, Life Drain, and Positive Energy Resistance.  [maybe add as a sidebar - 'if you have Libris Mortis...']
4. Still need to sort CR out.

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Jan 5, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Either change the table and make the Gargantuan Carrion Crawler 6d8+21 or reduce the samples' trample damage.




What's your preference?


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## freyar (Jan 6, 2011)

Anything, just get these done!


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## Mortis (Jan 7, 2011)

Shade said:


> What's your preference?



Change the Table and Carrion Crawler!

On a related note, I guess the wight's trample will also inflict energy drain?

Regards
Mortis


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## Cleon (Jan 9, 2011)

Shade said:


> What's your preference?




I'd rather keep the table as is and reduce the damage.


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## Cleon (Jan 9, 2011)

Mortis said:


> Here's the amended spectre, I think I've changed everything that I should of ;-)




At first glance we can change the Alertness and one of the Epic Toughness feats to Epic Skill Focus in Listen and Spot.

That would change it so:

*Hit Dice:* 56d12+180 (544 hp)
*Skills:* Hide +59, Intimidate +67, Knowledge (religion) +61, Listen +71, Search +61, Spot +71, Survival +2 (+4 following tracks)*Feats:* Blind-Fight, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Flyby Attack, Improved Critical (touch), Improved Flyby Attack, Improved Initiative, Mobility, Weapon Focus (touch)
*Epic Feats:* Epic Skill Focus (Listen), Epic Skill Focus (Spot), Epic Toughness(x6), Superior Initiative


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## Mortis (Jan 10, 2011)

Cleon said:


> At first glance we can change the Alertness and one of the Epic Toughness feats to Epic Skill Focus in Listen and Spot.



Works for me.

I'll make the appropriate changes.

Just the sample wight and a look at the CRs to go (oh and an agreement on trample damage)

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Jan 10, 2011)

Cleon said:


> I'd rather keep the table as is and reduce the damage.




I'm fine with that.  I'll fix the entries.


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## Mortis (Jan 10, 2011)

Shade said:


> I'm fine with that.  I'll fix the entries.



Well at least it doesn't effect the spectre 

Regards
Mortis


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## Cleon (Jan 11, 2011)

Mortis said:


> Well at least it doesn't effect the spectre
> 
> Regards
> Mortis




So you didn't like the idea of it trampling incorporeal opponents. 

Oh, and I'll have a go at the Gargantua Wight.

EDIT: Oh, while I like the idea of a Gargantuan Wight getting an energy draining trample, the SRD Wight specifies it's the slam that energy drains so I'll leave it like that for the time being.


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## Cleon (Jan 11, 2011)

*Mystaran Gargantua Wight*

*Mystaran Gargantua Wight*
Gargantuan Undead
*Hit Dice:* 32d12+30 (238 hp)
*Initiative:* +4
*Speed:* 60 ft. (12 squares)
*Armor Class:* 19 (-4 size, +13 natural), touch 6, flat-footed 19
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +16/+41
*Attack:* Slam +26 melee (4d6+19 plus energy drain)
*Full Attack:* Slam +26 melee (4d6+19 plus energy drain)
*Space/Reach:* 20 ft./20 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Create spawn, energy drain, trample 3d8+19
*Special Qualities:* Darkvision 60 ft., undead traits
*Saves:* Fort +10, Ref +10, Will +19
*Abilities:* Str 36, Dex 10, Con –, Int 11, Wis 13, Cha 15
*Skills:* Hide +35, Listen +46, Move Silently +45, Spot +46
*Feats:* Blind-Fight, Improved Natural Attack (slam), Improved Critical (slam), Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Stealthy, Weapon Focus (Slam)
*Epic Feats:* Epic Skill Focus (Hide), Epic Skill Focus (Listen), Epic Skill Focus (Spot), Epic Toughness
*Environment:* Any
*Organization:* Solitary
*Challenge Rating:* 13?
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always lawful evil
*Advancement:* 33-64 HD (Gargantuan)
*Level Adjustment:* —

*Create Spawn (Su):* Any humanoid slain by a Mystaran gargantua wight becomes a wight in 1d4 rounds. Spawn are under the command of the wight that created them and remain enslaved until its death. They do not possess any of the abilities they had in life.

*Energy Drain (Su):* Living creatures hit by a Mystaran gargantua wight’s slam attack gain one negative level. The DC is 28 for the Fortitude save to remove a negative level. The save DC is Charisma-based. For each such negative level bestowed, the wight gains 5 temporary hit points.

*Trample (Ex):* Reflex DC 39 half. The save DC is Strength-based.

*Skills:* Wights have a +8 racial bonus on Move Silently checks.


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## Shade (Jan 11, 2011)

Cleon said:


> EDIT: Oh, while I like the idea of a Gargantuan Wight getting an energy draining trample, the SRD Wight specifies it's the slam that energy drains so I'll leave it like that for the time being.




Yeah, don't do that!

Updated.

Did I get the trample damages right?


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## Mortis (Jan 12, 2011)

Here's the version of the wight I did. Remarkably similar to Cleon's except for the feat selection.

*Mystaran Gargantua Wight*
*Gargantuan Undead*
*Hit Dice:*	32d12 (238 hp)
*Initiative:*	+4
*Speed:*	60 ft. (12 squares)
*Armor Class:*	19 (+13 natural, -4 size), touch 6, flat-footed 19
*Base Attack/Grapple:*	+16/+41
*Attack:*	Slam +26 melee (3d6+19 plus DC 35 Fort save or die plus energy drain)
*Full Attack:*	Slam +26 melee (3d6+19 plus DC 35 Fort save or die plus energy drain)
*Space/Reach:*	20 ft./20 ft.
*Special Attacks:*	Create spawn, energy drain, trample 3d8+19
*Special Qualities:*	Darkvision 60 ft., undead traits
*Saves:*	Fort +10, Ref +10, Will +19
*Abilities:*	Str 36, Dex 10, Con --, Int 11, Wis 13, Cha 15
*Skills:*	Hide +35, Listen +39, Move Silently +43, Spot +46 
*Feats:*	Blind-Fight, Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Critical (slam), Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Skill Focus (Listen), Weapon Focus (slam)
*Epic Feats:*	Devastating Critical (slam), Epic Skill Focus (Spot), Epic Toughness, Overwhelming Critical (slam)
*Environment:*	Any
*Organization:*	Solitary, or pack (1 plus 2d4 wights)
*Challenge Rating:*	13
*Treasure:*	None
*Alignment:*	Always lawful evil
*Advancement:*	33-48 HD (Gargantuan), 49-64 HD (Colossal)
*Level Adjustment:*	-

*COMBAT*
Mystaran gargantuan wights attack by hammering with their fists.

*Create Spawn (Su):* Any humanoid slain by a Mystaran gargantuan wight becomes a wight in 1d4 rounds. Spawn are under the command of the Mystaran gargantuan wight that created them and remain enslaved until its death. They do not possess any of the abilities they had in life.

*Energy Drain (Su):* Living creatures hit by a Mystaran gargantuan wight's slam attack gain one negative level. The DC is 28 for the Fortitude save to remove a negative level. The save DC is Charisma-based. For each such negative level bestowed, the Mystaran gargantuan wight gains 5 temporary hit points.

*Trample (Ex):* A Mystaran gargantua wight gains a trample attack. It can trample opponents smaller than itself, dealing 3d8+19 points of damage. A trampled opponent can attempt either an attack of opportunity at a -4 penalty or a Reflex save (DC 39) for half damage.

*Skills:* Mystaran gargantuan wights have a +8 racial bonus on Move Silently checks.

Regards
Mortis


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## Mortis (Jan 12, 2011)

Oh, why I think on. On the subject of whether or not a Mystaran gargantuan's energy drain should increase - here's what it says in the Immortal rulebook.

*Immortals Set DM Guide p.34*
Table D5 gives statistics for the Special Followers which may respond to a Call from a demon ruler. A page reference is given for each normal-sized creature; "B" (D&D Basic Set) and "C" (D&D Companion Set) listings refer to the DM rulebooks in those sets. More detailed statistics are given for gargantuan followers; see the Companion Set (DM rulebook, pg.32) for other details on these creatures. *Their energy drains do not increase in power.* Level-draining gargantuans (wights, wraiths, and spectres) can only be created or Called by a demon ruler, not by any mortal or lesser Immortal.

So I guess, we were right - no increase.

Regards
Mortis


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## Mortis (Jan 12, 2011)

Cleon said:


> So you didn't like the idea of it trampling incorporeal opponents.



Or wearing Ghost Touch armour. 

Regards
Mortis


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## Cleon (Jan 13, 2011)

Shade said:


> Yeah, don't do that!
> 
> Updated.
> 
> Did I get the trample damages right?




I just triple-checked them and all the trample damages looked fine.


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## Cleon (Jan 13, 2011)

Mortis said:


> Here's the version of the wight I did. Remarkably similar to Cleon's except for the feat selection.




Well that's hardly surprising, since the template only allows for variability in the extra skill ranks & feats.


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## Cleon (Jan 13, 2011)

Mortis said:


> Oh, why I think on. On the subject of whether or not a Mystaran gargantuan's energy drain should increase - here's what it says in the Immortal rulebook.
> 
> *SNIP*
> 
> So I guess, we were right - no increase.




Dang it, you beat me to it.

I recently read the Gargantua section of the Immortal rulebook again and noticed that bit.


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## Shade (Jan 13, 2011)

So...what's left?


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## Cleon (Jan 15, 2011)

Shade said:


> So...what's left?




Figuring out the Challenge Rating table. I suggest taking the original CR of the monsters and guesstimating what the Gargantua version's CR should be, that will give some idea of the adjustment we want.

*Mystaran Gargantua Carrion Crawler**:* CR 13 (Base CR 3)
*Mystaran Gargantua Gargoyle**:* CR 16 (Base CR 4)
*Mystaran Gargantua Troll**:* CR 18 (Base CR 5)
*Mystaran Gargantua Monitor Lizard**:* CR 10 (Base CR 2)
*Mystaran Gargantua Constrictor Snake**:* CR  10 (Base CR 2)
*Mystaran Gargantua Viper Snake**:* CR 6 (Base CR 1/2)
*Mystaran Gargantua Giant Carp**:* CR 18 (Base CR4 +2 for water blast?)
*Mystaran Gargantua Treant**:* CR  27  (Base CR 8)
*Mystaran Gargantua Spectre**:* CR  24  (Base CR 7)
*Mystaran Gargantua Wight**:* CR 13  (Base CR 3)

Looks like most of the CRs are a couple of points too low, but the Treant and Spectre are about right.

What do you think of this revised table:

*Mystaran Gargantua Challenge Rating Table*
Old CR . . . New CR
up to 1/4 . . CR 5
1/3 or 1/2 .. CR 7
. . 1 . . . . CR 10
. . 2 . . . . CR 12
. . 3 . . . . CR 15
. . 4 . . . . CR 18
. . 5 . . . . CR 20
. . 6 . . . . CR 22
. . 7 . . . . CR 24
each +1 . . . CR +3

That would give them CRs of:

*Mystaran Gargantua Carrion Crawler**:* CR 15 (Base CR 3)
*Mystaran Gargantua Gargoyle**:* CR 18 (Base CR 4)
*Mystaran Gargantua Troll**:* CR 20 (Base CR 5)
*Mystaran Gargantua Monitor Lizard**:* CR 12 (Base CR 2)
*Mystaran Gargantua Constrictor Snake**:* CR 12 (Base CR 2)
*Mystaran Gargantua Viper Snake**:* CR 7 (Base CR 1/2)
*Mystaran Gargantua Giant Carp**:* CR 20 (Base CR4, +2 for water blast?)
*Mystaran Gargantua Treant**:* CR 27  (Base CR 8)
*Mystaran Gargantua Spectre**:* CR 24  (Base CR 7)
*Mystaran Gargantua Wight**:* CR  15  (Base CR 3)


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## Knightfall (Jan 16, 2011)

Have you guys converted the Chameleon Man yet?


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## Cleon (Jan 17, 2011)

Knightfall said:


> Have you guys converted the Chameleon Man yet?




I don't think so. It's not in the *Creature Catalog list*.

A quick google couldn't find any 3E conversions, so it looks like it's a good candidate for conversion.


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## Shade (Jan 18, 2011)

Cleon said:


> What do you think of this revised table:
> 
> *Mystaran Gargantua Challenge Rating Table*
> Old CR . . . New CR
> ...




It looks good!  Updated.



Knightfall said:


> Have you guys converted the Chameleon Man yet?






Cleon said:


> I don't think so. It's not in the *Creature Catalog list*.
> 
> A quick google couldn't find any 3E conversions, so it looks like it's a good candidate for conversion.




I checked Echohawk's index, and it looks like it's unconverted anywhere, so we can tackle it.   I'm surprised we missed it when we "finished off" all the lizardfolk awhile back.


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## Mortis (Jan 19, 2011)

CR table looks good - so I guess we're finished with the Mystaran Gargantuans.

It's also probably a good time for Shade to lock the thread and start a new one. 

RE: Chameleon Man


			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I checked Echohawk's index, and it looks like it's unconverted anywhere, so we can tackle it.



Not quite anywhere - doesn't stop us doing a conversion though.
Savage Coast Monstrous Compendium
More background info.

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Jan 19, 2011)

Closed due to exceeding 1,000 posts.

New thread here.


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