# Captain America: The First Avenger



## Fiery_Dragon (Jul 21, 2011)

Went to a screening of Captain America held in Toronto last night.

Quick, non-spoiler review:

Really fun movie, really great Captain America. I wish it was an hour longer, or that we could get another Cap movie or two before The Avengers 'cause there's a lot of story that gets crammed into montages as they skip across WWII.

The interesting thing about this movie, as compared to Iron Man or Thor (or Incredible Hulk) is that Steve Rogers is a true hero, even before he becomes Captain America and gets his supersoldier abilities. Even though this is probably the most violent of the Marvel movies so far, it's the one that I'm most keen to take my kids to because Captain America demonstrates such great qualities.

Anyway, really enjoyed it, lots of fun, wish it was longer, great set-up for Avengers. Chris Evans is excellent.


Longer review, more spoilers...










I think the trick with this movie was cramming Cap's WWII career into one single movie so that he could get frozen by the end to be thawed for The Avengers next year. We spend a fair amount of time with Rogers pre-Super Soldier serum, so we get a lengthy set-up and origin piece, and we have the finale where he ends up in the ice... leaving not a lot of time to his exploits during WWII.

But - the stuff they do show with Cap and the Howling Commandos is great, if quick. All of the Commandos get a quick moment to shine in their action montage, even if the movie never mentions their names (aside from Bucky Barnes), and Captain America is a great man of action. The shield is cool, and used a bunch of different ways, and is almost its own character. The Bucky in the movie is the Bucky Barnes of a future Winter Soldier story rather than the scrappy young sidekick, and it's well done in the film.

There are a lot of great moments of Steve Rogers being noble and heroic - not stuff where he's awesome at jumping on tanks, but stuff where he demonstrates his willingness to sacrifice himself for others or stand up for what he believes in.

The end comes quick. Like I said, I wish we had another hour or another entire movie to see the ongoing battles between Captain America's Howling Commandos and the Red Skull's Hyrdra organization. The ending was good, but I wish it was even more emotional. Bascially, it's the opening scene from the 2009 Stark Trek movie, where the hero is going to sacrifice himself for the greater good while talking with loved ones on the radio, Star Trek was powerful. With Captain America, I was thinking that surely Cap could figure out another option or there must be some other way to save everyone without giving his life... maybe it seemed that he had more time than he should have, I don't know.

Anyway, great rip-roaring adventure film, with a great hero and filled with lots of cool bits that had me wanted much more. 

The didn't play the end-credits button at the screening, but I'm pretty sure I'm going to see it again this weekend and catch that, but I'm already excited for The Avengers next year so that's just icing on the cake. Definately hope they keep WWII stuff in any sequels.

- JB


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## Pbartender (Jul 21, 2011)

Fiery_Dragon said:


> [sblock]I wish it was an hour longer, or that we could get another Cap movie or two before The Avengers 'cause there's a lot of story that gets crammed into montages as they skip across WWII...
> 
> ...leaving not a lot of time to his exploits during WWII...
> 
> ...




I wouldn't be surprised to see, for example, an short animated spin-off series that more thoroughly explores those exploits.  In fact, I'd almost be disappointed if they didn't.


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## Bullgrit (Jul 22, 2011)

Captain America is my favorite superhero. And I've been excited about this movie for years.

But I have two fears:

1- Hollywood and patriotism and non-flawed heroes. I fear that Hollywood will not feel comfortable with Steve Rogers' patriotism and heroic personality. I fear Hollywood will have to . . . twist? . . . these aspects of Captain America to "make the story more compelling". 

2- The comic book Captain America started out pretty cheesy, I know. But he has, over the decades, become more than the cheesy punch-Hitler-in-the-jaw character. I fear Hollywood will make the movie extremely cheesy and the defense will be, "Well, Captain America was really cheesy back in the day."

Does the movie go these routes?

Bullgrit


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## Mark CMG (Jul 22, 2011)

Best of the Avenger movies so far, IMO.  Grest fun!


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## Crothian (Jul 22, 2011)

The movie is extremely patriotic.  I love their use of many of the traditional symbols of that time and incoperating them into the movie.  The only flaws Captain was given is his inability to get drunk and the ability to talk to women.


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## Welverin (Jul 22, 2011)

Bullgrit said:


> Captain America is my favorite superhero. And I've been excited about this movie for years.




He's probably my second favorite after Spider-man, so I've been looking forward to this one.



> Does the movie go these routes?




I say no, and I really liked it.

My only real disappointment would be wanting more like Fiery_Dragon, I think it was about forty minutes in when he finally got his powers.

And the one problem I thought of while typing the above is that Hydra's tech felt out of place, even if it is appropriate relative to the comics.


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## Relique du Madde (Jul 22, 2011)

Crothian said:


> The only flaws Captain was given is his inability to get drunk and the ability to talk to women.




So... his super power is to be the ultimate Wingman / designated driver for Ironman and Thor?


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## Fiery_Dragon (Jul 22, 2011)

Bullgrit said:


> Captain America is my favorite superhero. And I've been excited about this movie for years.
> 
> But I have two fears:
> 
> ...




Have no fear.  

The interesting thing about the movie, from a meta perspective, is that unlike Tony Stark and Thor who need to discover humility or find a cause greater than themselves, that's Steve Rogers STARTING position.  He doesn't have to undergo the hero's journey - he's already there.  It's more about gaining the abilities to match his existing heroic qualities.

As for the cheesey punch-Hitler bits, they address that in the movie, very cleverly.  "Captain America" is super cheesy, but Steve Rogers isn't and rescues him from that fate.

- JB


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## Mark CMG (Jul 23, 2011)

Fiery_Dragon said:


> As for the cheesey punch-Hitler bits, they address that in the movie, very cleverly.  "Captain America" is super cheesy, but Steve Rogers isn't and rescues him from that fate.





Along with Hayley Atwell, that entire tack is what I loved best about the movie.  It's like they completely anticipated that concern and addressed it in the most excellent way one could imagine.


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## Bullgrit (Jul 23, 2011)

Your responses gave me hope. I just got back from seeing the movie.

I approve. It's wonderful. I'm so happy.

Bullgrit


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## AdmundfortGeographer (Jul 23, 2011)

I had no hope for this movie. After hearing they were offering distributors in other countries the option to change the name (3 countries took up the offer) I was about to write it off.

I'm going to see now.


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## Ed_Laprade (Jul 23, 2011)

Eric Anondson said:


> I had no hope for this movie. After hearing they were offering distributors in other countries the option to change the name (3 countries took up the offer) I was about to write it off.
> 
> I'm going to see now.



And well they should have. He is _not_ the first Avenger! I hope to get to see it.


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## DumbPaladin (Jul 24, 2011)

Ed_Laprade said:


> And well they should have. He is _not_ the first Avenger! I hope to get to see it.





Uh ... Ed, they gave other countries the option to rename the movie to just "The First Avenger", so as to drop the word 'America' from the film.


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## Ed_Laprade (Jul 24, 2011)

DumbPaladin said:


> Uh ... Ed, they gave other countries the option to rename the movie to just "The First Avenger", so as to drop the word 'America' from the film.



Well, that's just lame.


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## Abraxas (Jul 25, 2011)

Captain America is my favorite superhero and this is the best superhero movie I have ever seen.

I liked everything about it except it was about an hour too short - I could have easily watched more.


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## megamania (Jul 25, 2011)

Crothian said:


> The movie is extremely patriotic.  I love their use of many of the traditional symbols of that time and incoperating them into the movie.  The only flaws Captain was given is his inability to get drunk and the ability to talk to women.




Proof that drink helps a guy talk to women


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## megamania (Jul 25, 2011)

Hoping to see it this Wednesday.

Next summer should be good also-

Superman
Batman
Avengers
Spider-man


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## Klaus (Jul 25, 2011)

megamania said:


> Hoping to see it this Wednesday.
> 
> Next summer should be good also-
> 
> ...



Superman is June 2013.


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## Wycen (Jul 25, 2011)

Conan O'Brien has been helping promote the movie on his show and he says it "looks gooooodd!"


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## Blastin (Jul 25, 2011)

saw it this weekend with the kids. Really liked it. There were also some great one liners in there. My favorite was Tommy Lee Jones, after Steve passes the last test, looks to the Prof and Grunts:"Humph....he's still too skinny."


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## AdmundfortGeographer (Jul 25, 2011)

"I'm not gonna kiss you!"


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## Bullgrit (Jul 25, 2011)

> There were also some great one liners in there.



Tommy Lee Jones had the best lines, and he delivered them great.

I'm amazed at the special effects that made Chris Evans' the skinny little pre-serum Steve Rogers. I hope whoever played his body gets credit. And speaking of Evans, he did a very good Steve Rogers and Captain America. I'd shake his hand for that proper performance.

And the Red Skull -- Hugo Weaving and the make up artist(s) was excellent combination.

I could go on and on with praise like "awesome" and "fantastic," but really, the bottom line for me is that the whole thing was "proper." They handled the whole Captain America story in a proper way, and the writer, director, producer, and actors get my applause and appreciation.

Bullgrit


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## Welverin (Jul 26, 2011)

Bullgrit said:


> I'm amazed at the special effects that made Chris Evans' the skinny little pre-serum Steve Rogers. I hope whoever played his body gets credit.




That would be Chris Evans, they originally planned to do a face swap on someone else's body, but he refused and said if they can put his face on someone else's body they could make him look smaller and that he should do all of the acting.


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## Bullgrit (Jul 26, 2011)

Well then the CG artists deserve major kudos.

Bullgrit


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## Mouseferatu (Jul 26, 2011)

Just saw this today. I don’t know yet if I’m prepared to call this the _best _Marvel movie to date. Need to see it, and some of the others, a few more times.

But I am prepared to say that, in terms of mood/tone/feel/aesthetics, it got _absolutely everything right_. Seriously. It’s brilliant in that regard alone. My biggest complaint is that it wasn’t about eight hours longer, so we could see a lot more of Cap’s missions during WWII.

Between this and X-Men: First Class, I kind of want at least half of all comic book movies to be period pieces from here on out.


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## horacethegrey (Jul 27, 2011)

Well, just watched this. And I have to say, it's not as good as _Thor_, but it's a solid movie and a great intro to the Captain.

SPOILERS AHEAD!!!

LIKES

*Chris Evans* - Truth be told, I wasn't exactly thrilled when I heard Evans was cast as Steve Rogers. He was annoying as hell as Johnny Storm in the Fantastic Four movies, but here, he does a complete 180 and proves what a damn good actor he is. Where his Human Torch is an arrogant douche, his Captain America is a humble and earnest dude. Evans portrays Steve as an underdog you can't help but root for, like in the scenes before he gets the Super Soldier serum, which for me are the best in the film. He also brings a nice understated humor with Cap in those hilarious USO shows. 

*Period setting* - It's a good thing they hired Joe Johnston to direct this. Like he proved in _The Rocketeer_, the man knows how to create a convincing 40's setting. Despite the advanced tech Hydra displays, I bought that we were back in time when America was fighting in the Big One.

*Peggy Carter* - Wow. Nice to see a romantic interest in a superhero flick who didn't feel useless. Yeah, Haylee Atwell is gorgeous, but mad props to her for playing Peggy as anything but eye candy. She's a tough as nails broad who eventually softens her outlook as she becomes attracted to Cap. Their relationship was handled nicely and provided one of the more poignant moments in the film. 

*The Red Skull *- It's Hugo Weaving. Nothing more needs to be said. 

*After credits teaser* - ASSEMBLE. Nuff said. 

DISLIKES

*Uneven second half *- The first half of the film is great, with some nice character development focusing on Steve and his eventual moment of glory when he rescues Bucky and the 107th from Hydra, thus becoming a hero for real. Everthing after that though, is a bit of a letdown. Cap's WWII exploits I think were needlessly glossed over and could have had more focus. It seems like they were rushing to bring Cap to the modern world in the end, which I thought hurt the film in the long run. I would have liked to see more of Cap's heroics in WWII in other films.

*Lack of Nazi's *- Hydra didn't feel like Nazi's, they felt more like Cobra from _GI Joe_. I wish the filmmakers didn't give us Hydra as Cap's default antagonists in an effort to be respectful to history. Cap is a WWII character like Indiana Jones, and he should be punching Nazi's left and right.

Overall. I enjoyed the movie, but kind of bummed that Cap is now in the modern era. We should have had more films with him in WWII.


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## Plane Sailing (Jul 29, 2011)

Saw the movie and loved it. 

Favourite one- liner? The Red Skull near the beginning, saying something like "And hitler is looking for toys in the desert!" - A lovely nod to Raiders. 

I really liked the way they took the idea of the cosmic cube being the source of the power for hydras high tech weapons. Nice story linkage. 

I also appreciated the brutality of the assault on hydras base. A lot of good men go down in a firefight, and it is unusual to see that reflected on film. 

I also loved Stanley Tucci's work in the movie.


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## Richards (Jul 31, 2011)

horacethegrey said:


> Cap is a WWII character like Indiana Jones, and he should be punching Nazi's left and right.



Well, in Cap's defense, he DID punch "Hitler" about 180 times.  

I just saw this today, and I thought it was very well done.  One of the best "translations" from Marvel Comics to film I've ever seen.

Johnathan


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## Walking Dad (Jul 31, 2011)

I usually like DC more, but I have to say that X-Men First Class and Cp blew Green Lantern out of the water...


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## horacethegrey (Jul 31, 2011)

Richards said:


> Well, in Cap's defense, he DID punch "Hitler" about 180 times.
> 
> Johnathan



Hah. True that.  But while we're on that subject, I'd just like to say that whole USO plotline was a brilliant and original addition to the film. It made sense for the time period and gave a credible reason for Steve Rogers to be walking around in that costume.


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## nightwind1 (Aug 2, 2011)

Bullgrit said:


> Captain America is my favorite superhero. And I've been excited about this movie for years.
> 
> But I have two fears:
> 
> ...



Not at all. This is Cap as he was meant to be, and as he is written when he is written by someone who understands him. This IS Captain America.


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## NewJeffCT (Aug 2, 2011)

I thought the movie was good to very good overall.  I thought Evans was good in the title role and Hayley Atwell was very good as well (and gorgeous - she really fills out those costumes rather well)  I liked Tommy Lee Jones, Hugo Weaving & Stanley Tucci in their roles as well.

Not great - I agree with the above post from horacethegrey - after he rescues the 107th, the film feels a bit disjointed and then ends kind of abruptly.

Also, the teaser for next year's Spider-Man reboot was shown before the movie.  Normally, I love Spidey - heck, I grew up reading Amazing Spider-Man religiously from the early 70s through the mid 90s - however, the teaser just left me cold.  I liked the first Spidey movie a lot, thought the 2nd was good and the 3rd was overcrowded, but okay.  Never felt "meh" about any of them, though.  It just left me no desire to see it.


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## Mouseferatu (Aug 3, 2011)

NewJeffCT said:


> Also, the teaser for next year's Spider-Man reboot was shown before the movie.  Normally, I love Spidey - heck, I grew up reading Amazing Spider-Man religiously from the early 70s through the mid 90s - however, the teaser just left me cold.  I liked the first Spidey movie a lot, thought the 2nd was good and the 3rd was overcrowded, but okay.  Never felt "meh" about any of them, though.  It just left me no desire to see it.




At the risk of threadjacking...

I had the precise opposite reaction. I'm a _huge_ Spidey fan. I'd say, if I had to pick a single favorite comic book character, it'd be him. And I liked the first two Maguire movies. But to me, this trailer just _feels_ more like Spider-Man than those movies did.

Plus, everything else I'm hearing about it--such as they're letting him be a lot more of the wise-cracker he's supposed to be--rings positive for me as well.


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## Sutekh (Aug 3, 2011)

I was always more a Ghostrider (although having seen the first movie I was distraught) fan and an Iron Man fan ( I love the first movie). 

Having said that , I went to a small picture theatre I know (less people) and saw Captain America. 

I liked it a lot. I would of preferred Cap fighting Nazis but Hydra was close enough.

Agent smith as Red Skull rocks. I feel a little bad for Hugo Weaving who has played a fair few villains by now but I think he .. (and this is no slight on the actor) does his best work when you hear the voice but not the face. His voice just brings a whole new level for the game and for an actor thats 9/10 win. Hes almost the go to guy for villains in Hollywood now. 

Question:

A) Did Red SKull die or was he simply 'beamed' back to Asgard ?

B) Is Repulsor technology as 'developed by both Howard and Tony Stark' really just Asgardian technology developed from the Cube? Iron Man 2 Reference: Is the 'new' element simply one that was created by the Asgardians?


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## Bullgrit (Aug 3, 2011)

> Question:
> 
> A) Did Red SKull die or was he simply 'beamed' back to Asgard ?
> 
> B) Is Repulsor technology as 'developed by both Howard and Tony Stark' really just Asgardian technology developed from the Cube? Iron Man 2 Reference: Is the 'new' element simply one that was created by the Asgardians?



A: Is this a comic book story? Do we see a body?

B: Tony got the atomic layout? of the new element from the layout of the tech fair, which was before Howard found the Cosmic Cube.

Bullgrit


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## Sutekh (Aug 3, 2011)

Well to me it looked like it was consuming Red Skull and then he sorta.. disappeared. Which could of meant that the Cubes power destroyed him but then the beam of light surged towards the heavens (and Asgard?). So then I thought he might of been beamed to the High Security Prison in Asgard. 

In Regards to B, Im still of the theory that the cube is connected to the Stark developments with repulsor technology.  In Re to the Tech fair you are right. It was before he found the cube. Stil, with that reveal I think it pays a lot more to the fact he used it to further his work on repulsor.


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## MrMyth (Aug 3, 2011)

Mouseferatu said:


> At the risk of threadjacking...
> 
> I had the precise opposite reaction. I'm a _huge_ Spidey fan. I'd say, if I had to pick a single favorite comic book character, it'd be him. And I liked the first two Maguire movies. But to me, this trailer just _feels_ more like Spider-Man than those movies did.
> 
> Plus, everything else I'm hearing about it--such as they're letting him be a lot more of the wise-cracker he's supposed to be--rings positive for me as well.




My reaction has been pretty back and forth: 

1) I hear they are making a reboot, which feels way too soon, especially since it looks to be retelling a nigh-identical origin story to the last time. Initial reaction: Not interested.

2) I hear a bit more about it - that they are patterning it a bit more after Ultimate Spider-man, aim to have a bit more humor in it, and have a good cast lined up. Reaction: Tentatively interested. 

3) I see the trailer, which looks nothing like that above description, and looks to be playing up even more the moody, emo, sulking Peter Parker than the last trilogy of movies. Maybe it is just the trailer, but... reaction: Not interested. 

Moving away from the threadjack, though... as for the Captain America movie, I thought it was fantastic. Easily coming in behind Iron Man as my second favorite of the current crop of superhero movies. 

And, as Sutekh points out, I thought Hugo Weaving was great - mainly because he is able to shine when he has a different face and different accent from his normal voice. Otherwise, at least for me, I still can't shake the image of Agent Smith from whatever role he is playing.


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## Agamon (Aug 3, 2011)

I really shouldn't have watched Saving Private Ryan the day before going to see this.  I had to keep telling myself, "Comic book movie, comic book movie, comic book movie..." 

Otherwise, it was pretty good.  Behind First Class, on par with Thor.  Hugo Weaving and Tommy Lee Jones were great.

And, no Red Skull isn't dead.  Don't be silly.  Bucky is though.


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## MarkB (Aug 3, 2011)

Bullgrit said:


> B: Tony got the atomic layout? of the new element from the layout of the tech fair, which was before Howard found the Cosmic Cube.




Nitpick: I'm pretty sure the fair in the movie was a standard Worlds Fair type event. The plans which contained the new element were from the first Stark Expo, a purely Stark-sponsored event which would have come later.


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## Bullgrit (Aug 3, 2011)

MarkB said:
			
		

> Nitpick: I'm pretty sure the fair in the movie was a standard Worlds Fair type event. The plans which contained the new element were from the first Stark Expo, a purely Stark-sponsored event which would have come later.



The _Iron Man 2_ wikipedia article suggests you are correct: "a hidden message in the diorama of the 1974 Stark Expo proves to be a diagram of the structure of a new element"

Bullgrit


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## Relique du Madde (Aug 4, 2011)

Agamon said:


> Bucky is though.




You sure he didn't "get better"?


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## Welverin (Aug 4, 2011)

Relique du Madde said:


> You sure he didn't "get better"?




Depends, does getting rescued/kidnapped by the russians giving a mechanical arm and being brainwashed into a spy/assassin count as getting better?


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## Relique du Madde (Aug 4, 2011)

Welverin said:


> Depends, does getting rescued/kidnapped by the russians giving a mechanical arm and being brainwashed into a spy/assassin count as getting better?




Only if he doesn't eventually get the arm ripped off by the Red Skull's daughter in a cross over written by Matt Fraction.


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## Azgulor (Aug 5, 2011)

Couple of points:

*1.* Capt America rocked.  My favorite of the Marvel crop.

*2.* Like Raiders of the Lost Ark, I'd like to have seen some Nazis getting beat upon rather than just Hydra.  That said, I liked the Red Skull-Hydra set-up and it was obvious that it was still the Nazis who the Allies were fighting in WWII.  (In the Avengers cartoon, for example, it's the Allies figthting Hydra -- the Nazis are effectively retconned out of existence.)

*3.* An interview of Chris Evans that I saw said that his contract contains the options for 6 movies: 3 Avengers; 3 Captain America.  The studio doesn't have to make them, but if they do, Evans is wearing the Cap uniform.  This is important because...

*3a.* When the cube does its thing on the Skull, the stream has a very rainbow-esque appearance to it.  If they go with Cap 2 or 3, chances are good the Red Skull will reappear (having be transported _somewhere_ via the cube ala the Rainbow Bridge).

*3b.*  Bucky falling and being lost from sight is largely in sync with the comic-character's history.  I'm not saying Bucky will be back, but if they wanted to go the Winter Soldier route, they set it up so that the Winter Soldier origin wouldn't have to deviate too far from the comic version.


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## Azgulor (Aug 5, 2011)

As an aside, the biggest "what if" I took from the movie was will a Sharon Carter show up in either Avengers or a Cap2? -- and will Haley play that role as well?  I'm certainly hoping so -- she was great as Peggy Carter.  [And my wife's a sucker for the whole reincarnation/descendant looking like an ancestor/relative thing...  This is one of the few instances I'd agree.]


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## Rabulias (Aug 7, 2011)

Azgulor said:


> As an aside, the biggest "what if" I took from the movie was will a Sharon Carter show up in either Avengers or a Cap2? -- and will Haley play that role as well?  I'm certainly hoping so -- she was great as Peggy Carter.  [And my wife's a sucker for the whole reincarnation/descendant looking like an ancestor/relative thing...  This is one of the few instances I'd agree.]




[sblock]On IMDB, Amanda Righetti (who played the SHIELD agent that greeted Cap as he awoke in the modern era) is listed as playing Sharon Carter in The Avengers film.[/sblock]


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## Bullgrit (Aug 7, 2011)

Something that struck me as funny both times I saw this movie:

Stark (paraphrased): "It's made of vibranium. It doesn't vibrate." At that moment and a couple more times in that scene, you hear the shield vibrating.

Then several times throughout the rest of the movie, you hear the shield vibrating.

If the sound effects guys couldn't just leave the shield sounds out, then at least the editors could have taken out the "It doesn't vibrate," line.

Bullgrit


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## Plane Sailing (Aug 7, 2011)

On that matter, the fact that it absorbs impact yet gets bowled over by dual-machine-gun-man in the train... so what was the point of vibranium again?


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## Welverin (Aug 7, 2011)

Plane Sailing said:


> On that matter, the fact that it absorbs impact yet gets bowled over by dual-machine-gun-man in the train... so what was the point of vibranium again?




It's nigh indestructible.


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## Ed_Laprade (Aug 7, 2011)

I finally saw this the other day and was very pleased. I don't know why so many people are put out about Cap fighting Hydra. As far as anyone knows (until near the end of the movie) they _are_ Nazis, like the SS and the Gestapo. In fact, its possible that the Nazis think they're still Nazis. With the allies straffing everything in sight and all the destruction going on (and the only Nazi officers who knew better being dead), they might have just assumed that Schmit never got the memo. 

And, despite the fact that I'm usually a real nitpicker, there was only one thing that grated on me. That was HA calling herself Agent Carter while in uniform. I'm no expert on military protocol, but that just seemed *wrong* to me! Otherwise she was excellent in the role. And that probably wasn't her fault anyway.


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## MarkB (Aug 7, 2011)

Bullgrit said:


> Something that struck me as funny both times I saw this movie:
> 
> Stark (paraphrased): "It's made of vibranium. It doesn't vibrate." At that moment and a couple more times in that scene, you hear the shield vibrating.
> 
> ...




It's not "it doesn't vibrate", it's "it absorbs vibration". So when Peggy shoots it point-blank, the bullets' momentum is absorbed and they fall to the floor instead of bouncing back and killing her or Stark. Likewise, the energy of Hydra's cube-powered weapons gets absorbed instead of disintegrating the shield and Cap.

There's nothing to say that the shield itself won't vibrate - in fact, given all the kinetic energy it's absorbing, it's a testament to Cap's strength that it doesn't vibrate _more_.


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## Welverin (Aug 7, 2011)

Ed_Laprade said:


> I don't know why so many people are put out about Cap fighting Hydra. As far as anyone knows (until near the end of the movie) they _are_ Nazis, like the SS and the Gestapo.




Yes, but we know they're Hydra and not Nazis, so for someone who wants to see Cap fighting his historical villains it's a let down.


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## Plane Sailing (Aug 7, 2011)

Welverin said:


> It's nigh indestructible.




I think you're missing my point


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## Relique du Madde (Aug 8, 2011)

Plane Sailing said:


> On that matter, the fact that it absorbs impact yet gets bowled over by dual-machine-gun-man in the train...




Bucky failed his balance check as the train hit an uneven rail while going around a hairpin turn.  It was just coincidental that the guy was firing at Bucky when it happened.


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## Mark CMG (Aug 8, 2011)

Welverin said:


> Yes, but we know they're Hydra and not Nazis, so for someone who wants to see Cap fighting his historical villains it's a let down.





In the movie, isn't Hydra a scientific division of the Nazis/WWII German army?


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## Welverin (Aug 8, 2011)

Mark CMG said:


> In the movie, isn't Hydra a scientific division of the Nazis/WWII German army?




Not really, well it may not be explicitly stated and I may be reading into things based on comic history, but their more a separate organization that is working with(in) the Nazi government.

I think the Skull illustrates this well, the Nazis think he's one of them, but he's clearly using them and their resources for his own goals, Hydra would be no different.


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## Mark CMG (Aug 8, 2011)

Welverin said:


> Not really, well it may not be explicitly stated and I may be reading into things based on comic history, but their more a separate organization that is working with(in) the Nazi government.
> 
> I think the Skull illustrates this well, the Nazis think he's one of them, but he's clearly using them and their resources for his own goals, Hydra would be no different.





I got the impression from the movie that 



Spoiler



Erskine's formula and Zola's revised formula were part of the Nazi effort to create a super soldier, Johann Schmidt being an early (failed?) test subject who then rose in the ranks to head the scientific division that splits off from the Nazi's after the high command sends some inspectors around to evaulate their progress.  Schmidt/Skull kills the inspectors and intimidates the scientific team into continuing the work for him under the newly independent Hydra.  While Skull was using the funds for his own ends all along, it does seem from the movie (and the use of the Nazi salute) that Hydra was loyal to Hitler until Skull kills the inspectors (after which the new Hydra salute is used).


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## Welverin (Aug 8, 2011)

Mark CMG said:


> I got the impression from the movie that
> 
> 
> 
> ...




And why I said I might be reading more into based on my comic knowledge, since Hydra has been around an extra long time and insinuated itself into many regimes and organizations throughout time.


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## Mark CMG (Aug 8, 2011)

Welverin said:


> And why I said I might be reading more into based on my comic knowledge, since Hydra has been around an extra long time and insinuated itself into many regimes and organizations throughout time.





That's good to know (as someone who didn't read the comics).  FWIW, I think the sort of "eternal" organization has more possibilities than just another Nazi spin off.  In the comics, was Schmidt around before the failed experiement?  (Did that even happen in the comics?)


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## Mark CMG (Aug 8, 2011)

Welverin said:


> And why I said I might be reading more into based on my comic knowledge, since Hydra has been around an extra long time and insinuated itself into many regimes and organizations throughout time.





That's good to know (as someone who didn't read the comics).  FWIW, I think the sort of "eternal" organization has more possibilities than just another Nazi spin off.  In the comics, was Schmidt around before the failed experiement?  (Did that even happen in the comics?)


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## Welverin (Aug 8, 2011)

Mark CMG said:


> That's good to know (as someone who didn't read the comics).  FWIW, I think the sort of "eternal" organization has more possibilities than just another Nazi spin off.  In the comics, was Schmidt around before the failed experiement?  (Did that even happen in the comics?)




I don't think I've ever read an origin story for the Red Skull previously, though there is a mini series running now on issue #2 that is just that.

Anyway, the comic Red Skull/Johann Schmidt was an actual Nazi and one of Caps original villains and goes back to Caps origins in the early forties, thus predating Hydra.

Finally, there was no earlier experiment, when the Skull ended up with Caps powers it was because he was in a cloned body of Cap.


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## Ed_Laprade (Aug 8, 2011)

Well, if we're going to get nitpicky Hydra was formed by Baron Von Strucker, Nick Fury's nemesis, not the Red Skull. At the _very_ end of the war, not in '43-44, as in the movie. (I don't know about anyone else, but I have no idea how long it was supposed to take to get from the beginning of the movie til its end. Months, at least.)

And, for those who don't know, The Skull was in the very first Cap comic (IIRC). The one showing Cap socking Hitler on the jaw _before_ we entered the war.


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## Welverin (Aug 8, 2011)

Ed_Laprade said:


> Well, if we're going to get nitpicky Hydra was formed by Baron Von Strucker, Nick Fury's nemesis, not the Red Skull. At the _very_ end of the war, not in '43-44, as in the movie. (I don't know about anyone else, but I have no idea how long it was supposed to take to get from the beginning of the movie til its end. Months, at least.)




Haven't they recently established/retconed them to have been far, far older, much like what Hickman is doing with SHIELD?


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## Ed_Laprade (Aug 9, 2011)

Welverin said:


> Haven't they recently established/retconed them to have been far, far older, much like what Hickman is doing with SHIELD?



Its been a long time since I've read a new comic, but that's the impression I get. Of course, being a grumpy comics grognard, Marvel can tell me that the stories I read in my youth never happened all they want. Just don't expect me to pay any attention to them!


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## megamania (Aug 14, 2011)

Yup and DC also.


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## Relique du Madde (Aug 14, 2011)

Ed_Laprade said:


> Its been a long time since I've read a new comic, but that's the impression I get. Of course, being a grumpy comics grognard, Marvel can tell me that the stories I read in my youth never happened all they want. Just don't expect me to pay any attention to them!




I take it you agree with Deadpool that Magnito joining the X-Men after what he did to Jean in Morrison's run is messed up.  You will also agree that the Xorns never existed, their existance was an elaborate hoax, and that the X-men should stop insisting that it wasn't a drugged-up-psychotic-roid-raged Magneto (or a Cloneto) that Wolverine beheaded at the end of that fore-mentioned arc.


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## JoeGKushner (Aug 15, 2011)

I dug it.

Saw it with my mother and she dug it.

Had a very good flow from scene to scene. The only thing we thought was that it should have been longer. That is a rarity in a movie that I see it and go, "Man, that movie was too short."

Looking forward to seeing what they do in the future with this universe.


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## Klaus (Aug 15, 2011)

It was very cool indeed. As others have said, I'd love to see more of Cap and the Howling Commandoes going after Cobra... er, Hydra (come on, this was a better GI Joe movie than GI Joe).

It's funny that when fully suited, Chris Evans looked less muscular than when he came out of the Vita chamber.

Also, Peggy Carter was awesome. It's so rare that the "love interest" is as interesting to us as she is to the main character, but Hayley Atwell really delivered it.


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## Ed_Laprade (Aug 15, 2011)

Relique du Madde said:


> I take it you agree with Deadpool that Magnito joining the X-Men after what he did to Jean in Morrison's run is messed up. You will also agree that the Xorns never existed, their existance was an elaborate hoax, and that the X-men should stop insisting that it wasn't a drugged-up-psychotic-roid-raged Magneto (or a Cloneto) that Wolverine beheaded at the end of that fore-mentioned arc.



Didn't read them, so I couldn't say. But then, comics continuity has long been a matter of opinion, eh?


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## Relique du Madde (Aug 15, 2011)

Yup, and unfortunately continually is highly variable even between writers who are working on projects concurrently.


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## ssampier (Aug 16, 2011)

Excellent movie. Hugo Weaving is awesome as usual, but one of the few movies where I don't picture him saying, "Mr. Anderson..." while wearing black sunglasses.

I did have one nitpick, however. When 



Spoiler



Zola


 was captured 



Spoiler



by the Allies Col. Phillips questions him. They had a fairly memorable scene where Phillips eats a steak in front of him.


 However, despite all the time spent they never reference it later or explain why that scene was important.

Other than that, the movie was excellent. I was forced to see it in 3D. The 3D explosions added a lot to the movie. I will admit I flinched a little when the shield was heading toward the camera/screen.


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## MarkB (Aug 16, 2011)

ssampier said:


> I did have one nitpick, however. When
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Wasn't that how they found out the location and defenses of Hydra's main base, along with Red Skull's gameplan? That was certainly my impression.


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## Klaus (Aug 16, 2011)

MarkB said:


> Wasn't that how they found out the location and defenses of Hydra's main base, along with Red Skull's gameplan? That was certainly my impression.



You're correct. Gen. Phillips goes so far as to say "according to my new best friend", etc, etc.


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## Roland55 (Aug 16, 2011)

Mouseferatu said:


> Just saw this today. I don’t know yet if I’m prepared to call this the _best _Marvel movie to date. Need to see it, and some of the others, a few more times.
> 
> But I am prepared to say that, in terms of mood/tone/feel/aesthetics, it got _absolutely everything right_. Seriously. It’s brilliant in that regard alone. My biggest complaint is that it wasn’t about eight hours longer, so we could see a lot more of Cap’s missions during WWII.
> 
> Between this and X-Men: First Class, I kind of want at least half of all comic book movies to be period pieces from here on out.




Agreed ... especially with that last point.

But that may be the "old man" in me coming forward and taking over.

I go way back.


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