# Pathfinder 2 - Levelling Up, Skills, Feats, Faux Leather, More!



## lyle.spade (Mar 13, 2018)

As a GM who swore off PF when 5e came out - actually, I'd dumped the system before that - because of how crunchy it had gotten and how much rules-creep had taken place (and has continued at what seems like a quickened pace since), I must admit that all these changes are really intriguing and I will definitely download the playtest, and will try to find a game of it to play - not to run...I do that too much already...but to play.

A rising tide floats all boats. This is good for RP gaming in general.


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## Jacob Lewis (Mar 13, 2018)

That image of Jason Bulmahn pretty much sums up my reactions lately whenever I read something new about this system. "Yes!" <fist pump>


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## Morrus (Mar 13, 2018)

Me too. I can't wait for August!


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## Brodie (Mar 13, 2018)

I'll give it look as well. Everything seems interesting so far, though the hit point thing still bugs me.

D20 hit points in general bug me. "You can roll and possibly get a bunch of hit points or you can take this standard amount, which is just shy of half of what you COULD get." When I run a d20 game, I always tell my players to take the max amount. However... The very first time I did that, they became worried that I was going to be throwing a lot of damage at them. When I did homebrew rules for a d20 western and a d20 space game, i just baked that in. My stance on d20 hit points is probably another reason I enjoy Shadow of the Demon Lord so much.

Who knows? I may actually end up liking PF2 as much as Shadow of the Demon Lord.


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## jmucchiello (Mar 13, 2018)

Okay, so let's think about "All the feats are in the class table." This means when new feats are released in the Excellent Player's Guide, all the core class feat lists need to be updated. And when new classes are created in the Amazing Player's Guide, they have to include feats from the CBR and the EPG. And then when the Incredible Player's Guide comes out, it has to include all the class tables from CBR, APG, and EPG and those lists must include all the feats from CBR, APG, EPG, and IPG or else you need to reference all those books when you level up your wizard to make sure you aren't ignoring feats on your class list. And then what happens when you add the ORG and the URG and sometimes the YRG?


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## Ronald Cruz (Mar 13, 2018)

"perhaps not less unrealistic than before though"
Mr. Seifter, there are 3 negatives plus "maybe" and "though" in that phrase. I can't understand it, hurts my brain


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## Stacie GmrGrl (Mar 13, 2018)

This has me more excited.


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## vpuigdoller (Mar 13, 2018)

I'm excited as well cant wait till August.


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## 3catcircus (Mar 13, 2018)

jmucchiello said:


> Okay, so let's think about "All the feats are in the class table." This means when new feats are released in the Excellent Player's Guide, all the core class feat lists need to be updated. And when new classes are created in the Amazing Player's Guide, they have to include feats from the CBR and the EPG. And then when the Incredible Player's Guide comes out, it has to include all the class tables from CBR, APG, and EPG and those lists must include all the feats from CBR, APG, EPG, and IPG or else you need to reference all those books when you level up your wizard to make sure you aren't ignoring feats on your class list. And then what happens when you add the ORG and the URG and sometimes the YRG?




Or, you could just only allow official paizo feats.  Better yet, ditch feats for both PCs and NPCs altogether and see how it works.


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## Staffan (Mar 13, 2018)

jmucchiello said:


> Okay, so let's think about "All the feats are in the class table." This means when new feats are released in the Excellent Player's Guide, all the core class feat lists need to be updated. And when new classes are created in the Amazing Player's Guide, they have to include feats from the CBR and the EPG. And then when the Incredible Player's Guide comes out, it has to include all the class tables from CBR, APG, and EPG and those lists must include all the feats from CBR, APG, EPG, and IPG or else you need to reference all those books when you level up your wizard to make sure you aren't ignoring feats on your class list. And then what happens when you add the ORG and the URG and sometimes the YRG?



I think you misunderstand what they mean.

In PF1, there's a general advancement table which lists, among other things, feats at every odd level. There is also, for example, the fighter class advancement table which lists a bonus feat at level 1 and then every even level.

In PF2, the fighter advancement table will instead list a general and a fighter feat at level 1, a fighter feat at level 2, a general feat at level 3, and so on. Well, assuming they keep the same progression which they probably won't, but you get the idea. The point is that you only look at the class advancement table when leveling up, not in two different places.


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## jmucchiello (Mar 13, 2018)

3catcircus said:


> Or, you could just only allow official paizo feats.  Better yet, ditch feats for both PCs and NPCs altogether and see how it works.




All those added books I was talking about were the future expansion Paizo will eventually release. The Gunslinger will be back in a book by Paizo.


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## jmucchiello (Mar 13, 2018)

Staffan said:


> I think you misunderstand what they mean.
> 
> In PF1, there's a general advancement table which lists, among other things, feats at every odd level. There is also, for example, the fighter class advancement table which lists a bonus feat at level 1 and then every even level.
> 
> In PF2, the fighter advancement table will instead list a general and a fighter feat at level 1, a fighter feat at level 2, a general feat at level 3, and so on. Well, assuming they keep the same progression which they probably won't, but you get the idea. The point is that you only look at the class advancement table when leveling up, not in two different places.




That is plausible but that's not what I thought they were talking about AT ALL. But I have to say "So what?" It is a minuscule detail that doesn't really affect play. Changes to actions in combat is interesting. Location of level up information, less so. You have far more combats than level ups.


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## Jacob Lewis (Mar 13, 2018)

jmucchiello said:


> Okay, so let's think about "All the feats are in the class table." This means when new feats are released in the Excellent Player's Guide, all the core class feat lists need to be updated. And when new classes are created in the Amazing Player's Guide, they have to include feats from the CBR and the EPG. And then when the Incredible Player's Guide comes out, it has to include all the class tables from CBR, APG, and EPG and those lists must include all the feats from CBR, APG, EPG, and IPG or else you need to reference all those books when you level up your wizard to make sure you aren't ignoring feats on your class list. And then what happens when you add the ORG and the URG and sometimes the YRG?



Don't forget the BBC, the OMG, the WTF, and the LOL!


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## 3catcircus (Mar 14, 2018)

jmucchiello said:


> All those added books I was talking about were the future expansion Paizo will eventually release. The Gunslinger will be back in a book by Paizo.




Ah, ok.  The 2nd of my statements still stands.  The game would play much smoother if combat feats like power attack, cleave, rapidshot, etc.  Were *actions* that anyone could do instead of feats. 

Power attack? 2 actions.  Great Cleave? 3 actions.  Rapid shot? 2 action.  Likewise, an item creation feat could became unlocked by crafting proficiency rather than character level.


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## mach1.9pants (Mar 14, 2018)

Brodie said:


> I'll give it look as well. Everything seems interesting so far, though the hit point thing still bugs me.
> 
> D20 hit points in general bug me. "You can roll and possibly get a bunch of hit points or you can take this standard amount, which is just shy of half of what you COULD get." When I run a d20 game, I always tell my players to take the max amount. However... The very first time I did that, they became worried that I was going to be throwing a lot of damage at them. When I did homebrew rules for a d20 western and a d20 space game, i just baked that in. My stance on d20 hit points is probably another reason I enjoy Shadow of the Demon Lord so much.
> 
> Who knows? I may actually end up liking PF2 as much as Shadow of the Demon Lord.




You've misunderstood PF2 hitpoints. They are fixed and that amount is equivalent to PF1 max. Fighters get 10, wizards 6, etc  every level


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## EthanSental (Mar 14, 2018)

I think the point jmucchiello is trying to make is this game has the possibility of feat tree explosion like in PF1 where the games has over 2000 feats.  Some like this amount of feats in the name of character options.  Some dislike itmcause it a barrier to play after the 3 HB expansion or monthly companion series that have feats in them.  I came to dislike PF (liked it for the first 2 years) for this feat list growing like a festering sore on a hill giants back and feel like it's going to be worse with PF2 from the explanations so far.


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## Charlaquin (Mar 14, 2018)

Ronald Cruz said:


> "perhaps not less unrealistic than before though"
> Mr. Seifter, there are 3 negatives plus "maybe" and "though" in that phrase. I can't understand it, hurts my brain




 Read, “Still just as unrealistic.”


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## Jhaelen (Mar 14, 2018)

mach1.9pants said:


> You've misunderstood PF2 hitpoints. They are fixed and that amount is equivalent to PF1 max. Fighters get 10, wizards 6, etc  every level



A welcome change. I cannot help to notice, it's something that 4e did, as well...


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## CubicsRube (Mar 14, 2018)

I like the sound of a lot of the changes, but honestly, more hitpoints? I would have thought theyd go in the opposite direction.


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## Aldarc (Mar 14, 2018)

CubicsRube said:


> I like the sound of a lot of the changes, but honestly, more hitpoints? I would have thought theyd go in the opposite direction.



But it also sounds like there will be more damage, especially if there will be more criting due to no more confirming crits, etc.


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## CubicsRube (Mar 14, 2018)

[MENTION=5142]Aldarc[/MENTION] yeah seems so. So its going to stsrt feeling more 4e and 13th age i think


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## Aldarc (Mar 14, 2018)

CubicsRube said:


> [MENTION=5142]Aldarc[/MENTION] yeah seems so. So its going to stsrt feeling more 4e and 13th age i think



I think it's likely that the whole "confirming crits" failed its own critical test, namely, "Is this fun?" Not really.


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## MichaelSomething (Mar 14, 2018)

How many hps you have is only half the equation.  How is hp recovered?


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## CubicsRube (Mar 15, 2018)

[MENTION=5142]Aldarc[/MENTION] i wasnt refering to the crits. I was referring to the inflated hp and damage.


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## Aldarc (Mar 15, 2018)

CubicsRube said:


> [MENTION=5142]Aldarc[/MENTION] i wasnt refering to the crits. I was referring to the inflated hp and damage.



Ah. Sorry about that.


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## CubicsRube (Mar 15, 2018)

No problem! Im glad crit confirming is going in the trash. That was always a crap rule


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