# (+) Reviving Ideas from DnDnext



## UngeheuerLich (Jan 26, 2022)

As DnD 5.5 or 6E is approaching, I'd like to ask you if there are ideas from the 5e playtest you want to see revived. 

I for my parts mentioned elsewhere that I was really fond of Themes. The Idea of different classes somehow sharing a resource and way of fighting seemed very appealing to me.


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## DND_Reborn (Jan 26, 2022)

Since I have no idea what was involved in the playtest, I can't speak about it. Is there a resource available to browse through with information about it?


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## Frozen_Heart (Jan 26, 2022)

Manoeuvres for all martials as standard.
Sorcerer being actually unique and interesting, rather than a gimped wizard with the metamagic feat glued on.


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## Sacrosanct (Jan 26, 2022)

I liked how specialties worked.  Sort of a hybrid between background and subclass, but not tied to any class.  I liked how you could have any class choose a certain specialty as long as they met the (very easy) prerequisite.

*Edit  I also liked the fighting styles better than the more simplified versions they went with


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## Vaalingrade (Jan 26, 2022)

Yeah, fighters being good #1.


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## bennet (Jan 27, 2022)

Those are two very different editions, 5.5 has rangers dual bow wielding while in 6e they removed combat because it was upsetting the community.


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## Tales and Chronicles (Jan 27, 2022)

- Sorcerer having a real specific class function instead of receiving the other spellcasters's discarded features.

- Classes more frontloaded, fulfilling the fantasy of said class by level 10 or so. No more waiting 20 levels to do something basics as _becoming harder to be targeted by wolves and gophers_!

- Rage gives you temp hp instead of resistance. Berserker's fury do not cost a bonus action nor does it inflict exhaustion. It only cost 5 hp per free additional attack (once per turn). Barbarian can spend uses of Rage to autocrit on a hit.

- Rogue need Advantage for Sneak Attack, but each subclass comes with a way to generate advantage for itself.

- Clerics have bonus spells up to 7th level if they do not gain martial weapons + heavy armor. There's 12 different Channel Divinity and you domain tells you which you can use.

- Druid shapeshift comes with templates instead of using the monsters from the MM. 

- Paladins smite comes in the form of a Channel Divinity, and they can give a +CHA bonus to a save to ONE target as a REACTION. 

- Rangers are based on what they hunt or their favored enemy (Giant slayer, Dragon hunter, Horde Breaker etc).


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## commandercrud (Jan 27, 2022)

Knowledge skills


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## jmartkdr2 (Jan 27, 2022)

Wasn't involved in the playtest, but everything I heard about the playtest sorcerer makes me with something like that was available.


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## Azzy (Jan 27, 2022)

Frozen_Heart said:


> Manoeuvres for all martials as standard.



And damage on a miss.


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## Tales and Chronicles (Jan 27, 2022)

Azzy said:


> And damage on a miss.



So much outcry for this one. 

Evoker wizard gets this, no one bats an eye.

Martials get to do this? 1000 pages thread about the meaning of HP and verisimilitude!


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## DND_Reborn (Jan 27, 2022)

Deleted pending mod approval.


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## Tales and Chronicles (Jan 27, 2022)

DND_Reborn said:


> Here is a site I found with all the packets from the playtest
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Just as a little note, those packets are still marked as ''do not distribute''. I was never made clear if it was okay to post them here on Enworld, I you want to ask a mod before posting them.


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## DND_Reborn (Jan 27, 2022)

vincegetorix said:


> Just as a little note, those packets are still marked as ''do not distribute''. I was never made clear if it was okay to post them here on Enworld, I you want to ask a mod before posting them.



It isn't my dropbox and I haven't look at them yet.


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## Shiroiken (Jan 27, 2022)

ASI for starting class is absolutely a must! It "solved" the problem of certain races being "bad" at certain classes, since everyone had a boost to be good at it.

The martial die was absolutely amazing, but there's no way that makes a return. It goes against the "simple" philosophy that is very popular with most players/DMs.


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## Levistus's_Leviathan (Jan 27, 2022)

Size Categories for weapons. A much more elegant solution to the whole "Heavy Weapon" problem than what we currently have.


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## deganawida (Jan 27, 2022)

I haven't read my packet in years (I actually think I lost it), but IIRC fighters' maneuvers, which all fighters received, were both specific to fighting style and also broader in application*, meaning that the player had more imaginative space with which to describe and implement their maneuvers.  That was something which I remember as a big plus.  I'll confess to a great deal of disappointment in that being changed.

*please correct me if my memory is incorrect.


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## deganawida (Jan 27, 2022)

vincegetorix said:


> - Classes more frontloaded, fulfilling the fantasy of said class by level 10 or so. No more waiting 20 levels to do something basics as _becoming harder to be targeted by wolves and gophers_!




This.  Rather than worrying too much about dead levels or making single-class characters more appealing, have the class fully built by the time most campaigns peter out.


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## Jer (Jan 27, 2022)

vincegetorix said:


> So much outcry for this one.
> 
> Evoker wizard gets this, no one bats an eye.
> 
> Martials get to do this? 1000 pages thread about the meaning of HP and verisimilitude!



Because of the faction of folks who view hit points as a physical wounding mechanic.  An evoker's fireball does damage on a miss because you still got singed from the flames but you avoided the brunt of the attack.

I think that "damage on a miss" could actually be sold with the right presentation.  Calling it "damage on a miss" already sets up people to knock it down.  For example, give the Fighter a special ability at 3rd level which is called something like "Weapon Expertise".  The text of the rule is something like "You are so highly trained with fighting with your weapons of choice that you rarely actually miss your target when using them - if you do not beat the opponent's AC but also do not roll a 1 you are able to achieve a glancing blow on the target doing Str bonus + proficiency bonus damage. A 1 always misses." Or something to that effect.  It respects the fiction for those who want hp to be meat and also works with the vision of the fighter as a martial weapon master.


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## HammerMan (Jan 27, 2022)

UngeheuerLich said:


> As DnD 5.5 or 6E is approaching, I'd like to ask you if there are ideas from the 5e playtest you want to see revived.
> 
> I for my parts mentioned elsewhere that I was really fond of Themes. The Idea of different classes somehow sharing a resource and way of fighting seemed very appealing to me.



themes were great. I think we need something (background expansion, theme what ever you call it) that has overlap from class to class to give abilities to match what you want.

I would also like 5.5/6/Anniversary edition to build the martial die into fighters and have subclasses that work off it. 

I would also love if they made sorcerers and wizards more distinct. I don't remember the whole thing but I remember a subclass (maybe it was a whole class build?) that as you spent slots you got tougher so you start the day as a wizard but end it like a barbarian.


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## HammerMan (Jan 27, 2022)

vincegetorix said:


> - Druid shapeshift comes with templates instead of using the monsters from the MM.



not just wild shape but do away with polyorph like abilities that let you pick ANY X from monsters manual and instead make a stat block similar to more modern summoning spells, but let you flavor it.


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## HammerMan (Jan 27, 2022)

Shiroiken said:


> The martial die was absolutely amazing, but there's no way that makes a return. It goes against the "simple" philosophy that is very popular with most players/DMs.



it could. 

Give a die code martial die to fighters (and subclasses of paliden/ranger maybe rogue and barbariand subclasses too... in my perfect world a wizard sub class too) the default use is to add to damage the first time you hit with a weapon attack.   Sub classes then gain manuivers but keep a basic 'warrior' fighter (like champion) that only adds it to damage and has no other options... but they still get increased crit and fast healing and extra athlet (I think that's it) but I think it is doable...

if not break fighter in 2 the way we have a wizard and a sorcerer (and a bard and a warlock and an artificer) you can have a fighter and a XXXX (I like warlord or warblade but I don't really care the name) one kept simple one more complex.


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## HammerMan (Jan 27, 2022)

Azzy said:


> And damage on a miss.



not an easy thing... but something expert weapon users should be able to buy into.

in 4e the most well know where paragon feats (aka level 11+) that gave an off stat to damage on a miss. so hit is 1d8+str mod+magic but miss is con mod for an axe or hammer. I think (may have been homebrew) there was a bow one for wis so hit is 1d8+dex mod+ magic but miss is wis mod.  

I would love this. just a way to be better with weapons'.


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## UngeheuerLich (Jan 27, 2022)

HammerMan said:


> themes were great. I think we need something (background expansion, theme what ever you call it) that has overlap from class to class to give abilities to match what you want.
> 
> I would also like 5.5/6/Anniversary edition to build the martial die into fighters and have subclasses that work off it.
> 
> I would also love if they made sorcerers and wizards more distinct. I don't remember the whole thing but I remember a subclass (maybe it was a whole class build?) that as you spent slots you got tougher so you start the day as a wizard but end it like a barbarian.



Yes. That sorcerer was great. Even if it won't make it in as sorcerer, it probably would instead work as the psionic fighter or the arcane paladin/ranger


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## HammerMan (Jan 27, 2022)

Jer said:


> Because of the faction of folks who view hit points as a physical wounding mechanic.  An evoker's fireball does damage on a miss because you still got singed from the flames but you avoided the brunt of the attack.
> 
> I think that "damage on a miss" could actually be sold with the right presentation.  Calling it "damage on a miss" already sets up people to knock it down.  For example, give the Fighter a special ability at 3rd level which is called something like "Weapon Expertise".  The text of the rule is something like "You are so highly trained with fighting with your weapons of choice that you rarely actually miss your target when using them - if you do not beat the opponent's AC but also do not roll a 1 you are able to achieve a glancing blow on the target doing Str bonus + proficiency bonus damage. A 1 always misses." Or something to that effect.  It respects the fiction for those who want hp to be meat and also works with the vision of the fighter as a martial weapon master.



I can get behind this idea, but I think the 'not your main attack stat' is the most important part. heck because Int is so underused part of me wants to use Int Mod as the damage on a miss "You trained so well turning most misses into a glancing blow by being intelligent."


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## HammerMan (Jan 27, 2022)

UngeheuerLich said:


> Yes. That sorcerer was great. Even if it won't make it in as sorcerer, it probably would instead work as the psionic fighter or the arcane paladin/ranger



yeah I am fine with renames... "is not a rose by anyother name still an expensive flower that my girlfriend wants instead of the cheaper ones?"


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## billd91 (Jan 27, 2022)

The +1 point of ASI for initial classes was an excellent feature. The earlier playtests (packet 2 or so) had +1 from race, +1 from class. I'd be pretty content with +1 race, +1 subrace, +1 class. A good balance between racial archetype and class development.


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## Vaalingrade (Jan 27, 2022)

Jer said:


> Because of the faction of folks who view hit points as a physical wounding mechanic.  An evoker's fireball does damage on a miss because you still got singed from the flames but you avoided the brunt of the attack.



In the system I'm working on, I've found myself just littering it with notes about how game terms are not in-world physics to ward off this particular monster.


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## Rune (Jan 27, 2022)

I really liked the warlock (witch) who traded beauty for power.

The character I made, Pretty Polly (think a halfling version of Tracy Ullman’s character in _Robin Hood: Men in Tights_), has since made her appearance in multiple campaigns with various builds, but none of them has ever captured the feeling of sacrificing something for power that those mechanics evoked.


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## HammerMan (Jan 27, 2022)

Vaalingrade said:


> In the system I'm working on, I've found myself just littering it with notes about how game terms are not in-world physics to ward off this particular monster.



yeah I almost wish the words hit and miss were not as backed in... you rolled high enough to damage and you didn't roll high enough to damage needs better wording. 

"I hit an AC 17" 
"Sorry Monster has an 18, so you blade rebounds off the tough hide"
"Wait if it connected I hit right?"

and then we go back to touch attack in 3e... excuse me while I go try to uncross my eyes


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## Li Shenron (Jan 27, 2022)

A few ideas I liked during playtest:

1- "specialties": these were nothing more than simple lists of pre-selected feats, but looked like a good reference plan that you could pick and later decide to deviate from [these were axed when feats became optional and big enough so that each feat could be already thought of as a specialty, but I still like the idea]

2- "incidental tasks": neat and simple [were replaced by the uselessly verbose and prone to rules-laywering "one object minor interaction" rules]

3- "exploration turns": a good way for structuring routine wilderness travel when you don't necessarily plan any major events during it [didn't have enough exploration tasks to provide much tactical variations but it could have been a start]

4- bolder higher-level features, like for example Fighter's Indomitable being at-will

5- Bard getting more college features (at 5 different levels): it's the only class in the PHB that only gets them 3 times, so there is a long waiting time between the second and the third, and nothing after level 14 [I think a larger spread would give a better feeling to the colleges, even if some were minor features]

6- Druid having no mention of armor/shield restrictions [this beholdershit was NEVER playtested, it only sprung up into the printed PHB]


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## UngeheuerLich (Jan 27, 2022)

billd91 said:


> The +1 point of ASI for initial classes was an excellent feature. The earlier playtests (packet 2 or so) had +1 from race, +1 from class. I'd be pretty content with +1 race, +1 subrace, +1 class. A good balance between racial archetype and class development.



Actually that would help for multiclassing.


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## Vaalingrade (Jan 27, 2022)

HammerMan said:


> yeah I almost wish the words hit and miss were not as backed in... you rolled high enough to damage and you didn't roll high enough to damage needs better wording.
> 
> "I hit an AC 17"
> "Sorry Monster has an 18, so you blade rebounds off the tough hide"
> ...



There's no solving the Discworld citizen (being relentlessly literal) in D&D.

"You beat the AC"
"I was using a sword. I SLASH the AC".

"You overcome the AC"
"Then the mosnter is defeated!"

"Your roll was higher than the AC"
"I CAN FLY!?"


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## kapars (May 6, 2022)

Does anybody remember how the Monk changed? Is there a legal way to see this playtest content?


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## SakanaSensei (May 6, 2022)

I would love if the “hit on a ‘miss’” was handled like shock damage in Worlds Without Number. No attack is a single swing, some things are going to get through, sometimes you’ll make contact with a shield and the pure impact is still going to hurt.

Anything to make things move faster, please.


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## Azzy (May 6, 2022)

kapars said:


> Does anybody remember how the Monk changed? Is there a legal way to see this playtest content?



I do not remember, unfortunately.

No, there is no _legal_ way to see the playtest content—even though it's out there and several posters kept the old playest packets.


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## Ath-kethin (May 6, 2022)

I liked the NEXT sorcerer being more distinct from the wizard. The ability score bonus tied to class as well as race was great too.

And I really liked the feat tree for gaining spells/spellcasting, the only surviving member of which is Magic Initiate. I like being able to add a bit of juice to my character without multiclassing.


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## Azzy (May 6, 2022)

Ath-kethin said:


> And I really liked the feat tree for gaining spells/spellcasting, the only surviving member of which is Magic Initiate. I like being able to add a bit of juice to my character without multiclassing.



Yeah, I was sad that those feats went away.


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## Sacrosanct (May 6, 2022)

kapars said:


> Does anybody remember how the Monk changed? Is there a legal way to see this playtest content?



Ki points were a bit different.  You started with 2 at first level, but it only went up roughly every third level.  You also got an expertise dice, that started at 1d6 at 2nd level, up to 1d12 at 18th.

Unarmed attacks started at 1d6 damage.  You also got the following features:






Instead of having passive movement increases, you used a ki point to increase your movement by 15ft (step of the wind).  Same with other standard current abilities like missile deflection and making your attacks magical.  The original monk had you spend a ki point to do those.   Most of the Way of the Elements abilities, you spend a ki point to either damage someone(s) by 1d10 points, or gain damage reduction by 1d10.  1d10 seemed to be the key die to use for many of those abilities. 

Expertise is you choosing either Dex or Wisdom, and from that point forward, any ability check you have to make using that ability would add the expertise die


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## dave2008 (May 6, 2022)

DND_Reborn said:


> Since I have no idea what was involved in the playtest, I can't speak about it. Is there a resource available to browse through with information about it?



There were a lot of fun ideas in the playtest that didn't make it through. If you DM I can tell you more.


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## GMforPowergamers (May 6, 2022)

Frozen_Heart said:


> Manoeuvres for all martials as standard.
> Sorcerer being actually unique and interesting, rather than a gimped wizard with the metamagic feat glued on.





Vaalingrade said:


> Yeah, fighters being good #1.





Azzy said:


> And damage on a miss.



yes all martial (and as such introduce that ranger and paladin are half martials) have maneuvers and some of those include damage on a miss
also sorcerer not just being the wizard with meta magic


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## DND_Reborn (May 6, 2022)

dave2008 said:


> There were a lot of fun ideas in the playtest that didn't make it through. If you DM I can tell you more.



Yes, I am typically our DM but (thankfully) am getting a bit of break right now.


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## dave2008 (May 6, 2022)

DND_Reborn said:


> Yes, I am typically our DM but (thankfully) am getting a bit of break right now.



My apologies, I mean Direct Message (DM).


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## DND_Reborn (May 6, 2022)

dave2008 said:


> My apologies, I mean Direct Message (DM).



Ah! That makes more sense LOL!

You forgot the "me" in your post--hence the confusion. 


> There were a lot of fun ideas in the playtest that didn't make it through. If you *me* DM I can tell you more.




It is also why personally I use PM (private message), but no worries.


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## GMforPowergamers (May 6, 2022)

DND_Reborn said:


> It is also why personally I use PM (private message), but no worries.



if you think that is bad don't google what other things then At the Moment and Automated Teller Machine share the same abbriviation... and realize that in a game I had someone mean At the Moment, I asked what this had to do with a teller machine, and that players then girlfriend blurted out she thought he meant the other one...  context should have told us it was at the moment.


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## HammerMan (May 6, 2022)

GMforPowergamers said:


> if you think that is bad don't google what other things then At the Moment and Automated Teller Machine share the same abbriviation... and realize that in a game I had someone mean At the Moment, I asked what this had to do with a teller machine, and that players then girlfriend blurted out she thought he meant the other one...  context should have told us it was at the moment.



That reminds me of the story of the mom who horrified her daughter by sending LOL meaning lots of love after someone died… but the daughter got the LOL and thought laughing out loud.  

We get a lesson in work on why not to use abbreviation and that is always an example


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## kapars (May 7, 2022)

Sacrosanct said:


> Ki points were a bit different.  You started with 2 at first level, but it only went up roughly every third level.  You also got an expertise dice, that started at 1d6 at 2nd level, up to 1d12 at 18th.
> 
> Unarmed attacks started at 1d6 damage.  You also got the following features:
> 
> ...



Is this the Ki per short rest or long rest? It seems even more harsh than it is now. Did they get maneuvers like other martials?


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## Tales and Chronicles (May 7, 2022)

kapars said:


> Is this the Ki per short rest or long rest? It seems even more harsh than it is now. Did they get maneuvers like other martials?



Long rest. But maneuvers were less dependent on ki, most of them were free and only highly mystical ones used ki, and they only cost 1 point.


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## EzekielRaiden (May 7, 2022)

While there were several things I'm glad didn't stick around, I absolutely do miss some stuff from it. Both the Sorcerer and the Warlock were much better conceptually and more distinctly flavorful. Seeing WotC run skittish after the very first feedback round on those things, despite digging in its heels about _other_ features that were not well-received (like the proficiency dice), was proof enough to me that the playtest wasn't actually serious about doing interesting things.

They won't bring these things back with 5.5e, much as I would like them to. But there may someday be a thing where we get to see what a Sorcerer and Warlock might have looked like if they'd stuck with the model they'd gone with originally.

Honestly, Sorcerer _could_ have been something really, really cool. Every subclass could've been a significantly different experience, with your bloodline features pushing you toward a different playstyle and away from "squishy caster." We saw the Dragon sorcerer: slowly going from a light-armored sword-wielder to a savage maelstrom of elements and claws and teeth. What would a Shadow sorcerer be? Perhaps becoming a life-stealing echo of physicality, striking from unexpected directions and flirting with dissolving into entropic nothingness. A Storm Sorcerer could literally have become a _living storm_, every move light the flash of lightning, every strike a thunderbolt. Chaos? Imagine slowly losing physical form, physical locality, blurring with alternate universe versions of yourself or dissolving into a Star Trek-style changeling.

But nope. The, _ahem_, Traditionalists couldn't stand it, it wasn't traditional enough. So it had to go. And now they complain that it's just a worse Wizard....

It's almost like that's what a minority demanded, and then nobody (not even them!) actually _liked_ it.


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## Scott Christian (May 7, 2022)

Weren't dwarves immune to poison. Personally, I kind of like that thought, although with all the races now, I am not sure it would balance too well.


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## kapars (May 13, 2022)

Since it may further this discussion it appears that someone is hosting a dndnext playtest document right now . I stumbled on it Googling for info.

Three things that stuck out to me as Monk player:
1. Monk abilities worked without Ki but could be enhanced by spending Ki. This makes so much more sense and we wouldn’t even be having to worry about short rest debates so much
2. Some playtesters must have really hated on the four elements monk to go from the coolness listed there to the half baked third caster we have now. It is like they tried to change it and ran out of time and that is what we’ve been stuck with for 8 years and counting
3. DMs complaining about stunning strike spam need never have happened cause they only triggered attempts on critical hits


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## Horwath (May 13, 2022)

Frozen_Heart said:


> Manoeuvres for all martials as standard.
> Sorcerer being actually unique and interesting, rather than a gimped wizard with the metamagic feat glued on.



Maneuvers for all, at least resource pool for them can be on same counter.

Then all classes have their own pace at acquiring them.

Make metamagics spell maneuvers(cost and degree depending on strength of the metamagic effect)


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## Horwath (May 13, 2022)

billd91 said:


> The +1 point of ASI for initial classes was an excellent feature. The earlier playtests (packet 2 or so) had +1 from race, +1 from class. I'd be pretty content with +1 race, +1 subrace, +1 class. A good balance between racial archetype and class development.



+1 ASI from race, based on 3 key abilities
+1 ASI from sub race, based on 3 key abilities
+1 ASI from background, based on 3 key abilites
+1 ASI from class, based on 3 key abilities

No ability can get more than +2 from this.

or just scrape ASI bonuses from race and have modified point buy pool.

point buy pool: 32pts

score 8: 0 pts
score 9: 1 pt
score 10: 2 pts
score 11: 3 pts
score 12: 4 pts
score 13: 5 pts
score 14: 6 pts
score 15: 8 pts
score 16: 10 pts

or default array of: 16,14,14,12,10,8.


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