# Is the Spiked Chain Fighter really that Cheesy?



## Herremann the Wise (Jun 8, 2007)

Hello Everyone,

There have been several threads regarding the Spiked Chain and its lack of sense as well as its supposed "overpoweredness". I'm not so sure this is actually true. I've been fiddling round with a 10th level character to throw at my PCs but for all the supposed smell, I can't find the cheese.

Has anyone got a level 10 souped up Spiked Chain fighter that I can throw at my group. Consider it 32 point buy and a PC level of wealth, I want this guy to make my player's sweat. I have a funny feeling though he ain't gonna be quite as good as what I'm thinking.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

PS: I've played around with a Swashbuckler 3/ Fighter 4/ Exotic Weapon Master 3 build but I have a feeling this is completely ineffectual. Help me good boffins of EN World, you're my only hope.


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## Legildur (Jun 8, 2007)

I'm currently playing a Bbn1/Clr3/Ftr4 half-orc spiked chain wielder.  He's fun, but not devastating as he only excels against humanoids.

He has Kord as a deity with the Luck and Strength domains, so before a big battle he can cast Enlarge Person and Bull's Strength to buff up.  Currently wandering through the World's Largest Dungeon, and often don't have the tactical space to be size large and make use of the consequent 20ft reach.

His feats are Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Imrpoved Disarm, Weapon Focus (spiked chain), Exotic Weapon Proficiency (spiked chain), and Combat Reflexes.

Next feats are Weapon Specialisation (spiked chain), Melee Weapon Mastery (piercing), and Power Attack. (there are already two effective melee fighters in the group for really hitting hard, I'm just there for battlefield nuisance value).

Future levels will be in Exotic Weapon Master.


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## Sejs (Jun 8, 2007)

Herremann the Wise said:
			
		

> Has anyone got a level 10 souped up Spiked Chain fighter that I can throw at my group. Consider it 32 point buy and a PC level of wealth, I want this guy to make my player's sweat.




A?  No.  A spiked chain fighter will get killed horribly by your party.  What was the line in Baldur's Gate?  "Let's see who is the better swordsman - you, or my group."  A single spiked chain figher is a speedbump.  Your PCs will not sweat.

Now a team of three spiked chain fighters.. that's a bit more sweatworthy.


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## hong (Jun 8, 2007)

Sejs said:
			
		

> A?  No.  A spiked chain fighter will get killed horribly by your party.  What was the line in Baldur's Gate?  "Let's see who is the better swordsman - you, or my group."  A single spiked chain figher is a speedbump.  Your PCs will not sweat.
> 
> Now a team of three spiked chain fighters.. that's a bit more sweatworthy.



 Mind you, it could also be argued that three Str-twinked raging barbarians would be even more sweatworthy.

IMO, the point of the spiked chain isn't that it's dangerous. What it IS, is annoying. The barbarian is pretty straightforward: he hits you, you hit him, eventually one of you goes down. The spiked chain guy, OTOH, is all about stopping you hitting him. Close in, AoO, trip, you fall down; on his turn, disarm, you lose your weapon. Now there are ways to deal with this, just like there are ways to deal with a raging barbarian in your face; but I'd wager that most people would get tired of fighting spiked chain guys before they get tired of fighting regular melee brutes.


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## JRR_Talking (Jun 8, 2007)

Yep

Ive only played Living Greyahwk about 15 times so far, and im already had enough of both half-orc spikey chains and barbars as well

it isnt just cheesey, its silly


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## necromental (Jun 8, 2007)

I'm curently playing 

Human Ranger1/Fighter4/Exotic Weapon Master1/Pious Templar4 Of Moloch(custom LE fire deity, favored weapon spiked chain, you can substitute him with Kossuth if playing Faerun)

Ranger lvl 1 is background flavor, fighter feats, exotic weapon master's Flurry of Strikes, 4 lvls of templar give DR 1/-, mettle, a bit of divine spellcasting(paladin's or blackguard's spell list), W.Specialization bonus feat, and another fighter bonus feat and general smite 1/day(vs. anyone, +4 attack, lvl on damage)

Feats: Ex.W.Proficiency(spiked chain), W.Focus, W. Spec(bonus), Track(bonus), C.Reflexes, C.Expertise, P.Attack, Blind-Fight, Improved Trip, Expert Tactician, True Believer


you can substitute blind fight for Extra Smite, Greater Resiliency, or Improved Disarm


next two lvls are ex.w. master(exotic reach, and trip features), and then pious templar all the way


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## Victim (Jun 8, 2007)

No, it's merely good, and an actual reason to remain fighter.

Don't go with Swashbuckler.  Going Dex for Finess doesn't help you Trip at all.


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## Plane Sailing (Jun 8, 2007)

Legildur said:
			
		

> I'm currently playing a Bbn1/Clr3/Ftr4 half-orc spiked chain wielder.  He's fun, but not devastating as he only excels against humanoids.
> 
> He has Kord as a deity with the Luck and Strength domains, so before a big battle he can cast Enlarge Person and Bull's Strength to buff up.  Currently wandering through the World's Largest Dungeon, and often don't have the tactical space to be size large and make use of the consequent 20ft reach.
> 
> His feats are Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Imrpoved Disarm, Weapon Focus (spiked chain), Exotic Weapon Proficiency (spiked chain), and Combat Reflexes




Gosh, I wonder how many half-orcs would have put their an initial 15 in Intelligence?

Joking aside, I wouldn't expect to see very many half-orc fighters with spiked chain and improved trip/disarm etc, because getting the Int 13+ prereq must *really* hurt when your race has a -2 Int penalty.


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## Bagpuss (Jun 8, 2007)

So you don't want me to mention mine then? Admittedly I rolled some odd stats, 17,16,16,15,11,5

Which for a Half-Orc is Str 19 (+1 at 4th), Dex 16, Con 16, Int 13, Wis 11, Cha 3

He's 6th level all Fighter...

Gaunlets of Ogre Strength, Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip, Improved Disarm, etc.

His total trip modifier is +10, and Disarm +22.

Next three level in EWM to get exotic trip, exotic reach and flurry.

I just hope I never meet a Charisma draining monster.


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## Legildur (Jun 8, 2007)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> Gosh, I wonder how many half-orcs would have put their an initial 15 in Intelligence?
> 
> Joking aside, I wouldn't expect to see very many half-orc fighters with spiked chain and improved trip/disarm etc, because getting the Int 13+ prereq must *really* hurt when your race has a -2 Int penalty.



It did! It did! And needing the 13 Wis for the 3rd level Cleric spells. But such is life. But I had a decent set of scores to start with.

And like I said, he is more nuisance value than outright mean - simply there to support the other meatshields, which is a funny story as a couple of times now I've had to use the reach of the chain to trip allies trying to flee from combat due to a failed saving throw (even used a bolas (non-proficient) once to trip an ally).


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## Legildur (Jun 8, 2007)

Bagpuss said:
			
		

> I just hope I never meet a Charisma draining monster.



Oh, and they exist... trust me


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## The Blow Leprechaun (Jun 8, 2007)

Bagpuss said:
			
		

> Which for a Half-Orc is Str 19 (+1 at 4th), Dex 16, Con 16, Int 13, Wis 11, Cha 3



I think you're pretty severely autistic at that point. That might be fun to roleplay.

I'm currently playing a spiked chain fighter, but at the moment he's only level 1, so I can't really speak to effectiveness yet. I'm planning on turning him into a Dragon Disciple for the strength bonuses (need something that will pretend to make trip an effective tactic at later levels), and it dovetails amazingly with my character story.

Personally, I don't think a spiked chain build is the be-all and end-all of anything. It's primarily a nuisance tactic (although since it's a two-handed weapon, you can power attack nicely with it). Trip is a dangerous attack because every time you fail the strength check, they can return the favor and you can either go down yourself or lose your weapon.

Unless your DM is a) stupid or b) too rigid to adapt the module s/he's using, it's pretty easy to get around a spiked chain fighter. Use minions to absorb his AOOs and then get in his face, have one creature 5' adjust into his threatened area and another following behind him (because you can't make AOOs through cover), use ranged attacks, plan an ambush and close during a surprise round, heck - just tumble... DC 15 is pretty easy. 

The spiked chain fighter isn't cheesy, it just takes advantage of one of the classic weaknesses of monsters - their stupidity. If your game has smarter monsters, they just have to act like it and actually think instead of rushing headlong and swinging.


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## hong (Jun 8, 2007)

The Blow Leprechaun said:
			
		

> I think you're pretty severely autistic at that point. That might be fun to roleplay.




He's the quiet guy, never says much, keeps to himself... likes cutting pieces off people now and then, but everybody has their quirks, you know?


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## Tetsubo (Jun 8, 2007)

Yes. The Spiked Chain is the cheesiest weapon in the game. In ANY game. It is the absolute definition of CHEESE.

My hatred for the Spiked Chain knows no bounds... it is in fact the ONLY thing in the world I still hate. Stupidity of this level should be punishable by imprisonment... 

Simply put the Spiked Chain is the dumbest thing ever introduced into D&D...


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## Felix (Jun 8, 2007)

> *No*. The Spiked Chain is the *best* weapon in the game. In ANY game. It is the absolute definition of *SWEET*.
> 
> My *love* for the Spiked Chain knows no bounds... it is in fact the ONLY thing in the world I still *love*. *Awesomeness* of this level should be *rewarded* by *enshrinement*...
> 
> Simply put the Spiked Chain is the *cleverest* thing ever introduced into D&D...



I just wanted to get that anti-post up there quick, so the concentrated mass of ire didn't collapse into a black hole, sucking all of ENWorld into the ether.


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## el-remmen (Jun 8, 2007)

I called it Kau sin ke - and since it is an exotic weapon, I made it as part of another culture where the campaign is not taking place - and since I enforce setting cultural appropriateness in the character creation process no one has even looked in that direction.


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## Legildur (Jun 8, 2007)

The Blow Leprechaun said:
			
		

> ...because you can't make AOOs through cover...



... unless you have taken a level of Exotic Weapon Master (CW) and selected the _Exotic Reach_ Exotic Weapon Stunt.


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## Moon-Lancer (Jun 8, 2007)

I have yet to see any proof that the spiked chain is broken or that its cheesy, it just hasn't gotten enough good lip service yet. I personally see it as being like ivy's sword.


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## hong (Jun 8, 2007)

Moon-Lancer said:
			
		

> I have yet to see any proof that the spiked chain is broken or that its cheesy, it just hasn't gotten enough good lip service yet. I personally see it as being like ivy's sword.



 Yep. And Ivy is FECKIN' ANNOYING to play against.

Well, when she's being run by the AI, that is. When it's a human, she's deadmeat because no ordinary human has a clue how to control that damn whip.


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## TheGogmagog (Jun 8, 2007)

I've played two pole-arm (quickdraw greatmace) trip-masters.  They ranged from craptacular to underwhelming.  First to trip you have to be facing something equal to or smaller than you and without four leggs.  These were both from 5th to 8th level, and there were few chances where I had a chance to trip.  It only mattered once, a small dragon, it kept him from getting full attacks and escaping.  Aside from that it only came into play a half dozen other times, either an already futile fight or only slowed the opponent down a little (move action and attack of opportunity to stand).  If you were in a city based mostly humanoid opponents campaign, and/or allowed all books and PRC's it _might_ be as powerful as the awsome build people say.  Oddly I don't see any of them here.

If you are DM and would really put this to the test, how bout a giant or other large base creature?  A thri-kreen would have both large size and four leggs, that would be a trip machine.

Also as mentioned make it two of these fighers, a cleric and a warmage.  Then you have a challenge.  Even one thri-keen (or whatever they are called) all maxed out but standing alone shouldn't be that tough.  Hmmm, another thought for an encounter;  A Hydra with improved trip....


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## Moon-Lancer (Jun 8, 2007)

actually in a tournament i played in, a kid from my school really knew how to use her. he was a total pro. It was kind of sick to watch, but I did beat him now and again (go siegfried). the computer in my experience dosen't use ivy as good as it could be. The computers only advantage is it can counter really good (that goes for all characters the computer plays). aside from that, the computer generally doesn't know when to use the right moves. hell even i can use ivy better then the computer and i don't player her that much. 

now maxi, theirs one heck of a button smasher (ok so i don't know him very well). 

*ahem*

anyway the flavor for the spiked chain can be changed. theirs also brotherhood of the wolf. It also uses a whip sword like weapon very much like ivys. and its a live action movie. so yeah... its not too impossible to visualize, and thierfor isen't cheese in my opinion. 

*some edits*


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## Moon-Lancer (Jun 8, 2007)

while having a whole army with spiked chain users my be a bit odd, i think its perfectly acceptable for hero to wield a unwieldy weapon because they are special or uneq. In my opinion their should be more exotic weapons worth a feat.


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## cignus_pfaccari (Jun 8, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> IMO, the point of the spiked chain isn't that it's dangerous. What it IS, is annoying. The barbarian is pretty straightforward: he hits you, you hit him, eventually one of you goes down. The spiked chain guy, OTOH, is all about stopping you hitting him. Close in, AoO, trip, you fall down; on his turn, disarm, you lose your weapon.




I agree.  The spiked chain can be annoying when turned on you, but it's only really useful against humanoids and other not-big weapon wielders.  Against monsters, your lack of damage shows up pretty clearly.

Brad


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## Nazhkandrias (Jun 8, 2007)

The Spiked Chain is only slightly overpowered on a Medium creature if used and abused properly. Its true power shines when in the hands of a Large creature. Even then, the Spiked Chain can be circumvented fairly easily by a savvy DM. If a player starts getting cocky with Improved Trip, guess what? They just earned a trip to an evil Yuan-Ti monastery. Not much tripping against those snake-tailed Halfbloods, Abominations, and their huge snake minions. Or, simply send a squad of Elven snipers at them. The three best ways to stop a Spiked Chain trip monkey is to use monsters resistant to trip, ranged attacks, and larger creatures (a common feature in most campaigns anyway). Or, another Spiked Chain wielder, for that matter. Overall, I DO allow Spiked Chains, but if it becomes a problem, the monsters MIGHT get smarter and start to use ranged attacks.

As for a good Spiked Chain wielder, consider the Goliath. Powerful Build increases trip effectiveness and weapon sizes, and they have no racial penalty to Int, making them ideal for a Spiked Chain wielder. Try these stats out, for a Fighter 9/Barbarian 1 Goliath put into MM format for your viewing pleasure.

[sblock=Goliath Fighter/Barbarian]
*Goliath, 9th-Level Fighter/1st-Level Barbarian
Medium Monstrous Humanoid*
*Hit Dice*: 9d10+36 plus 1d12+4 (101 hp)
*Initiative*: +1
*Speed*: 30 ft. (4 squares)
*Armor Class*: 19 (+7 _+2 breastplate_, +1 _amulet of natural armor +1_, +1 Dex)
*Base Attack/Grapple*: +9/+19
*Attack*: +18 _+2 large spiked chain_ (2d6+10/19-20) or +11 large masterwork composite longbow (+6 Str) (2d6+6/x3)
*Full Attack*: +18/+13 _+2 large spiked chain_ (2d6+10/19-20) or +11/+6 large masterwork composite longbow (+6 Str) (2d6+6/x3)
*Space/Reach*: 5 ft./5 ft. (10 ft. with spiked chain)
*Special Attacks*: Mountain rage
*Special Qualities*: Acclimated, fast movement 10', mountain movement, powerful build
*Saves*: Fort +12, Ref +2, Will +1
*Abilities*: Str 22, Dex 12, Con 18, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 8
*Skills*: _Your choice of 60 skill points, preferably in Intimidate, physical skills, and perception skills. Keep in mind the +2 to Sense Motive._
*Feats*: Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (spiked chain), Improved Critical (spiked chain), Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (spiked chain), Weapon Specialization (spiked chain)
*Environment*: Mountains (any)
*Organization*: Solitary
*Challenge Rating*: 11
*Treasure*: Standard
*Alignment*: Chaotic Evil
*Advancement*: By character class
*Level Adjustment*: +1[/sblock]

This should be pretty accurate (I used equipment as detailed for NPCs in DMG), and it seems pretty potent. Feel free to swap out feats to munchkinize this guy as you see fit, and keep in mind that Mountain Rage bumps you up to Large size, giving you the coveted 20 ft. reach with the Spiked Chain. Hope you enjoy him, I would be frightened by him! Oh, his only major weaknessess are his abyssmal Will and Ref saves, do with these as you see fit. For an extra challenge, try fighting this guy on his home turf - high altitudes. His acclimation means he's alright, but the PCs are at a serious disadvantage.


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## Piratecat (Jun 8, 2007)

Tetsubo said:
			
		

> Simply put the Spiked Chain is the dumbest thing ever introduced into D&D...



Flail snail.
Enveloper.
Carbuncle.
Flumph.

Ever since I saw the Jackie Chan movie where he fights someone with a red-hot steel chain, I've liked the weapon. Of course, my players have never tried to use one...


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## Erywin (Jun 8, 2007)

When I get back home, I might try building up a Crusader Swordsage using a spiked chain, I remember alot of feats and or manuvers being useful together.  There is that Feat that while in a shadwhand stance you get Dex and Str to damage, altho hotly debated wether or not thats a typo in the text.

Cheers,
E

edit: Make that Swordsage instead of Crusader


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## Tetsubo (Jun 8, 2007)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Flail snail.
> Enveloper.
> Carbuncle.
> Flumph.
> ...




Did said chain have spikes projecting from each link, piercing Mr. Chan's hands?

Chain weapons are odd but viable weapons. SPIKED chains are abominations in the eyes of all that is holy.

They. Are. Dumb.


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## ThirdWizard (Jun 8, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> Yep. And Ivy is FECKIN' ANNOYING to play against.
> 
> Well, when she's being run by the AI, that is. When it's a human, she's deadmeat because no ordinary human has a clue how to control that damn whip.




I can do that move where it flies into 10000000 pieces and attacks; I'll beat you down in some Soul Calibur as Ivy!

Well, I would have about five years ago at least...


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## Moon-Lancer (Jun 8, 2007)

Tetsubo said:
			
		

> Did said chain have spikes projecting from each link, piercing Mr. Chan's hands?
> 
> Chain weapons are odd but viable weapons. SPIKED chains are abominations in the eyes of all that is holy.
> 
> They. Are. Dumb.




swords are dumb because you cant hold the blade and not get cut. 

see, both these arguments are strawmen.


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## Nazhkandrias (Jun 8, 2007)

Tetsubo said:
			
		

> Did said chain have spikes projecting from each link, piercing Mr. Chan's hands?



Well, obviously that picture of a Spiked Chain is absolute bupkis, as is the picture of the Scythe. An actual Spiked Chain would have a good-sized chunk of it free of spikes to use as a grip. A viable Scythe would be wielded as Astaroth wields Thanatos in SC2. The one pictured is simply for cutting grass.

But the point is, I don't think any weapon should be disallowed based on how realistic or feasible it is in real-life. D&D is all about over-the-top heroics and theatrics - physics and "could it be done in real life" shouldn't enter into it - why else would we play it if we were limited by what we can do in real life? The key term here is fantasy. Ah yes, fantasy; a world of ridiculously oversized weapons, crazy plans and maneuvers, giant beasts that make no biological sense, and the craziest weapons imaginable!



			
				ThirdWizard said:
			
		

> I can do that move where it flies into 10000000 pieces and attacks; I'll beat you down in some Soul Calibur as Ivy!



The input time required for that move is ridiculous. A quick Jade Crusher, Dark Bite, or throw from even a slow character like Nightmare (SC2 Nightmare, my main man) will put a quick end to that. In addition, any 8WR counters will destroy you. It's about the most situational move in the game, and it only works if your opponent doesn't know Ivy at all. Trust me, stick to her stance variations.


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## Plane Sailing (Jun 8, 2007)

The only time when I'd consider a spiked chain to be cheesy is in the Enlarge Person (or other Large user) issue - where basically it allows them to fully control a 20ft area with their reach.


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## Plane Sailing (Jun 8, 2007)

An interesting idea I heard someone mention once and which I think bears consideration, is that the spiked chain rules could actually be used quite well for a (real) quarterstaff or Bo staff, which is essentially a weapon that excels at being used both at reach and close up, and is jolly good for tripping and disarming.

Cheers


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## Moon-Lancer (Jun 8, 2007)

I dig that.


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## Mistwell (Jun 8, 2007)

No fans of weapon finnesse with the spiked chain?

How about the tripping feats that were added to the newer books (I think PHB II)?


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## Nazhkandrias (Jun 8, 2007)

Sorry, but for Trip builds, Str, not Dex, is paramount. With point buy, you can be much more effective as a Str-based Spiked Chain user, and you free up a feat. The finesse quality only makes the Spiked Chain more versatile for smaller users, and then, it's more of the AoO chain rather than the trip chain.


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## (Psi)SeveredHead (Jun 8, 2007)

It's powerful, depending on the campaign. If your opponents are frequently (demi)humans, you'll often walk all over them. You will not have an easy time tripping giants, though. There is nothing wrong with a campaign that uses lots of (demi)humans - any "Against the Drow" adventure, for instance, will be full of them.

The trip sequence is a big deal, too. You trip your opponent, they fall, and then you get a free attack (to do damage, at +4 to hit while you're at it). If it weren't for the likelihood of failing your opposed stat check, you would always use trip when possible. With the *+4** bonus from Improved Trip, the chance of succeeding at the stat check is quite high, even if your enemy has equal stats to you.

So you've knocked your opponent down and got to hit him. Your opponent starts getting up. You get an AoO. The AoO resolves *before* the action that triggered it, so your opponent is still treated as prone as they get up. As a result, you *don't* get to knock them right back down (no serial tripping), and your opponent *does* get to get up (but takes damage). This had to be explained in the FAQ because the rules around this were poorly explained.

The biggest thing that makes tripping really good? Classed (demi)human oponents have to be specifically built to avoid being tripped, otherwise they have little chance of resisting being tripped. Even a high Strength fighter or high Dex rogue has little chance to avoid being tripped if the attacker has a (nearly) matching stat. A raging barbarian has a decent advantage, though.

Spiked chains give lots of extra attacks (very good threatened area, hit 'em on the way down, hit 'em on the way up) but do lower base damage compared to other two-handed martial or exotic weapons. On the whole I think they get the advantage over the other weapons, but not a huge one ... depending on the campaign.

* Your opponent's stat needs to be 8 points higher just to match yours, assuming they're the same size as you. That's ... a lot.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jun 8, 2007)

IMHO, its not so much the spiked chain fighter that is cheesy, its the art...oh yeah, and the spiked chain itself.

AFAIK, the only weapons that actually resemble the dimensions of the weapon from the PHB have no spikes on them, only chains and a weight at the end (like the OA version).

Though I suppose you could have one with the weights having spikes...but if you've ever seen someone work with a chain weapon, you'd know that would still be a problem.



> swords are dumb because you cant hold the blade and not get cut.




Actually, you _can_ if you're wearing the gauntlets typical of a fully-armored warrior.  In fact, there is something called the "Mortschlag" (Murder Blow) in which the sword is grasped by the blade and the foe is struck in the head by the sword's crosspiece- effectively working like a blunt pick.

It may not penetrate the armor, but it probably will cause a concussion good enough to stop or drop your foe, allowing you to finish him off.

But the point was that you can't fight with a spiked chain if it really were as it was illustrated.  You don't have enough places to grab it and get damage-dealing leverage with it.


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## The Blow Leprechaun (Jun 8, 2007)

(Psi)SeveredHead said:
			
		

> The biggest thing that makes tripping really good? Classed (demi)human oponents have to be specifically built to avoid being tripped, otherwise they have little chance of resisting being tripped.



Again, though, only if they're stupid enough to consistently put themselves in a position to _be_ tripped. Classed demihumans are often way too smart to fall for this trick more than once, and any DM who keeps mindlessly walking them towards the spiked chain fighter should have their DM-card revoked. Even a creature with animal intelligence shouldn't fall for this more than once.

This is a powerful tactic, but it's not _that_ powerful. PCs have to constantly respond and adjust their tactics based on what the monster they're facing is doing - why should monsters be any different? If a PC had DR 2/whatever, wouldn't an intelligent creature be smart enough to realize its weapon isn't working as well as it thought and change up tactics? In that case, the monster may not have another weapon - against a spiked chain, it could always choose not to be an idiot and stick its hand in front of the lawn mower.


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## wildstarsreach (Jun 9, 2007)

JRR_Talking said:
			
		

> Yep
> 
> Ive only played Living Greyahwk about 15 times so far, and im already had enough of both half-orc spikey chains and barbars as well
> 
> it isnt just cheesey, its silly




A spiked chain is limited and problematic.  To have real cheese, you have to go with the Kusari-gama out of OA.  It can do everything a spiked chain can and be used as a double weapon  without the short haft feat, be used at standard combat and weapon finesse can be used with it.  It has 1d6 slashing or 1d4 blunt as opposed to piercing only.  I have a ninja that uses this to trip opponents and then to strike at range while being out of range of the opponents.


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## Vysirez (Jun 9, 2007)

The thing about a spiked chain is even if you don't or can't go for the whole tripping thing, it's still extra attacks. Especially nice at lower levels. So your 4th lvl greatsword fighter could either move to the badguys and get 1 attack. While spiked chian guy  could ready an action to attack something that closes with him, and get his one attack, plus one per target up to his max number of AOOs. This can often be 2-3 extra attacks. What other pair of feats(exotic weapon and combat reflexes) can give you that many extra attacks. With pretty much any melee type build I have to resist the urge to use a spiked chain just cause I've all ready done a couple and I don't want to annoy my DM too much.


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## Tetsubo (Jun 9, 2007)

Moon-Lancer said:
			
		

> swords are dumb because you cant hold the blade and not get cut.
> 
> see, both these arguments are strawmen.




Swords are not designed to be held by the blade with your bare hands.

There simply isn't any way to use the Spiked Chain AS DEPICTED IN EVERY ILLUSTRATION of the weapon. It is an absurd design that has no place even in a fantasy game...


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## Herremann the Wise (Jun 9, 2007)

Tetsubo said:
			
		

> Swords are not designed to be held by the blade with your bare hands.
> 
> There simply isn't any way to use the Spiked Chain AS DEPICTED IN EVERY ILLUSTRATION of the weapon. It is an absurd design that has no place even in a fantasy game...




I really didn't want this thread to go in this direction.

Tetsubo, you have already put forward your opinion and you're entitled to it - but repeat it too many times and you're just thread-crapping. When I crafted the thread, my purpose was to throw something at my PCs that's a little different, but I quickly found that there was more mystique surrounding the spiked-chain build than actual substance.

In reference to your arguments, check out the two pictures in Heroes of Horror in regards to the Tainted Minion and Tainted Reaver. These illustrations show a reasonable (at least in terms of fantasy) depiction of a spiked chain in action. For those without access to the book, two large rings act as handhold with a regular chain between them. On the other end of each of these handholds is the spiked part of the chain.

This is good enough for me.

[edit]her's the link: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ag/20051014a&page=3[edit]

Anyway, thanks everyone for putting forward so many good ideas. My plans are to go for a dexterity build and have him surrounded by a few big boppers that can take advantage of any mayhem. I don't want to make the build so it is impossible for the PCs to win a trip check, just enough so that it's tough. If I was playing a PC build however, strength is obviously the way to go from what you're saying.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise


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## (Psi)SeveredHead (Jun 9, 2007)

The Blow Leprechaun said:
			
		

> Again, though, only if they're stupid enough to consistently put themselves in a position to _be_ tripped. Classed demihumans are often way too smart to fall for this trick more than once, and any DM who keeps mindlessly walking them towards the spiked chain fighter should have their DM-card revoked. Even a creature with animal intelligence shouldn't fall for this more than once.
> 
> This is a powerful tactic, but it's not _that_ powerful. PCs have to constantly respond and adjust their tactics based on what the monster they're facing is doing - why should monsters be any different? If a PC had DR 2/whatever, wouldn't an intelligent creature be smart enough to realize its weapon isn't working as well as it thought and change up tactics? In that case, the monster may not have another weapon - against a spiked chain, it could always choose not to be an idiot and stick its hand in front of the lawn mower.




So your answer is that "melee is dumb"?

You trip the NPC. They get up, get hit but not tripped, then move away. The spiked chain wielder follows, then trips them again. Avoiding a spiked chain is very difficult as long as the spiked chain wielder has as much mobility as the victim; anywhere the victim goes, the spiked chain weilder can follow. Or the spiked chain wielder can go after someone else in the party.


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## Moon-Lancer (Jun 9, 2007)

Tetsubo said:
			
		

> Swords are not designed to be held by the blade with your bare hands.
> 
> There simply isn't any way to use the Spiked Chain AS DEPICTED IN EVERY ILLUSTRATION of the weapon. It is an absurd design that has no place even in a fantasy game...




Well their have been good examples of the spiked chain. I remember one with the spiked chain making its way into the foreground of the picture. I forget were it was from though. Quite simply, most illustrations are a bit ridicules, but are you going to ban a weapon because artiste zero? here is how it works. one artiest makes a semi absurd dzn of a weapon, and to save time the other artist's use it too. It is after all in the equipment section. 

I don't see how one conception of the spiked chain can make the weapon broken or cheesy? cant you imagine it in such a way as to be mechanically feasible? I can. Do you choose to use the most absurd abstraction possible or are you just limited to official d&d art?

If you wish to discuss the implications  the artiste on the imagination of the common gamer, I would be very welcome to join you in such a thread. It could be fun. But quite simply swords were not meant to be gripped by the blade, and spiked chains were not meant to be gripped by the spikes. its just a victim of odd artistic conception. 

If anyone can find that image I was talking about earlier, please post it, just for the awesome factor. imho it was the best spiked chain image in a d&d book thus far.


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## The Blow Leprechaun (Jun 9, 2007)

(Psi)SeveredHead said:
			
		

> So your answer is that "melee is dumb"?



No, my answer was if you mindlessly walk towards the spiked chain wielder, knowing he'll mow you down when you try, _that's_ dumb.

You have to remember, the PC most likely to be able to do this is a Fighter (I suppose a wizard build to do this might be interesting to keep people away from you, but good luck winning those trip attempts with much regularity).

But this isn't your only job as a Fighter - you've got a lot of responsibility to take attention away from the monsters and keep them from eating your less melee-able companions. What do I do as a spiked chain wielder if they ignore me and destroy my companions? If they spread out, I can't keep them _all_ busy, and with my reduced damage capacity (sure you get an extra attack, but that initial trip attack doesn't do any damage now, does it?) I'm less able to crunch those enemies and keep them away from my wizard, or my rogue, or my cleric.

The synergy with Combat Reflexes is great, but every reach weapon achieves the exact same effect when combined with this. That's one of the major uses of the feat. Without a reach weapon, it's a pretty silly feat to take - not useless, but not all that use_ful_, either.

I just had a fight last session where a monster was able to close with me because of my responsibilities to keep the rest of the party alive. I _could_ have 5' adjusted back after my attack to make the skulk provoke an AOO again, but doing so would have almost definitely gotten the rogue killed.

My point is that monsters need tactics, too. If a sorcerer has just nailed a group of monsters with a fireball, they sure as heck shouldn't all stand together in a mob anymore - they should spread out and take that tactic away from the sorcerer, just like infantry facing cannon don't cluster together. DMs need to stop being lazy and _tactically_ deny the spiked chain wielder their benefits.

I could almost exactly emulate the abilities of a spiked chain by having armor spikes and wielding a guisarme (all I'd lose is a +2 to disarm) - and I wouldn't even need to spend a feat on an Exotic Weapon Proficiency. I'd even have a better crit multiplier! Would that be cheesy, or just powergaming?


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## milo (Jun 9, 2007)

I personally prefer the cleric of kossuth route for the spiked chain.  Go with the war domain to get prof and focus.  Don't have my books handy, but I think the destruction domain is also available.  Divine power + Righteous might with combat reflexes for the Aoo is devastating.  Stats are at 1st 14 str 14 dex 14 con 14 int 14 wis 10 cha put 4th and 8th stat into wis.  Feats would be 1st combat reflexes 1st combat expertise 3rd dodge 6th mobility 9th spring attack.  Could possibly sub out combat reflexes for whirlwind.  Pick up a couple of stat boosting items to change final stats before spells to str 14 dex 16 con 14 int 14 wis 20 cha 10.  Gloves of dex are necessary to counteract dex negative from righteous might.  After spells str 24 dex 14 con 20 int 14 wis 20 cha 10.  Bear's endurance, righteous might and divine power.  There are many more good spells to cast but this is to keep it short and only needs three rounds of prep time.  He could easily hear the party coming up and cast the bear's endurance ahead of time.  Have a room with a few weak enemies to give him casting time, then he busts through the door on round 4 or 5.


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## Tetsubo (Jun 9, 2007)

Herremann the Wise said:
			
		

> I really didn't want this thread to go in this direction.
> 
> Tetsubo, you have already put forward your opinion and you're entitled to it - but repeat it too many times and you're just thread-crapping. When I crafted the thread, my purpose was to throw something at my PCs that's a little different, but I quickly found that there was more mystique surrounding the spiked-chain build than actual substance.
> 
> ...




I will bow to your wishes. But in neither of those images does the Spiked Chain perform as it's text describes it would...


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## Shin Ji (Jun 10, 2007)

Tetsubo said:
			
		

> I will bow to your wishes. But in neither of those images does the Spiked Chain perform as it's text describes it would...




First, let me say I agree that the spiked chain makes very little sense looking at it.  I tend to visualize it as a normal length of chain, with a spiked ball at the end, similar to the head of a morningstar.

I'd actually prefer it to be a bludgeoning weapon, something like a meteor hammer.

But as to the best way to build a spiked chain wielder, let me put forward this build.  Warning- it uses several books.

You take your first two levels as a Wolf Totem Barbarian, from Unearthed Arcana.  This gives you Improved Trip without needing to get a high Int or take Combat Reflexes.  Pick up Whirling Frenzy from the same book if your DM allows it.

After that, you fill space until 6th level, where you take Exotic Weapon Master to get Flurry of Strikes and net yourself an extra attack.

Fighter dips are nice, as are Warblade dips, in order to be competitive with spellcasters.  Getting into Warmind (from the Expanded Psionics Handbook), or Occult Slayer is probably a good idea.

And the real icing on the cake is to get the Shock Trooper feat from Complete Warrior- it lets you Power Attack full without taking a penalty to hit.  By 10th level, using the Pouncing Charge maneuver, you can do over 300 damage on a charge.


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## The Blow Leprechaun (Jun 10, 2007)

Shin Ji said:
			
		

> First, let me say I agree that the spiked chain makes very little sense looking at it.  I tend to visualize it as a normal length of chain, with a spiked ball at the end, similar to the head of a morningstar.
> 
> I'd actually prefer it to be a bludgeoning weapon, something like a meteor hammer.



Yeah, if I'd been designing it, that's probably what I'd have done, also, but then you'd be able to effectively sunder with it from reach too, and people already cry foul about it.

I almost wonder if that's what the designers had in mind, but then decided being able to sunder with it was too powerful, and made it spiked/piercing. After all, piercing weapons are the only weapons that _can't_ sunder, and a chain-based weapon realistically makes more sense both as a bludgeoning or slashing weapon before a piercing one.


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## Ridley's Cohort (Jun 10, 2007)

In the hands of a specialist, tripping is a highly efficient means of dealing with melee-oriented Medium humanoids.  The downside of this route is you are investing 3 or more feats on a tactic that is suboptimal for almost everything else.

IME this is a balanced trade off -- Medium humanoids may be the most common style of opponent, but I see plenty of critters that laugh it off thrown into the mix.  I can easily imagine campaigns where this is overpowered or underpowered, based on the opponent mix.

I do not see this as a fundamentally different problem than Favored Enemy -- whether it is awesome or crappy or somewhere in between depends on the style of campaign.


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## wildstarsreach (Jun 10, 2007)

Let us look at situations.  In Kill Bill #1, you have the chain fight who was effective until the hero penetrates her range and kills her.  A chain fighter is unique and powerful.  My Ninja with his Kusari-gama and combat reflexes effective but not necessarily great.  There are limitations but there are advantages as well.

Some of the pictures of chains are more idealized than practical.  The pictures of chains may influence people that they can't work.  They can and do with they proper visualizations.


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## wildstarsreach (Jun 10, 2007)

Ridley's Cohort said:
			
		

> In the hands of a specialist, tripping is a highly efficient means of dealing with melee-oriented Medium humanoids.  The downside of this route is you are investing 3 or more feats on a tactic that is suboptimal for almost everything else.
> 
> IME this is a balanced trade off -- Medium humanoids may be the most common style of opponent, but I see plenty of critters that laugh it off thrown into the mix.  I can easily imagine campaigns where this is overpowered or underpowered, based on the opponent mix.
> 
> I do not see this as a fundamentally different problem than Favored Enemy -- whether it is awesome or crappy or somewhere in between depends on the style of campaign.




The tactic is very effective in a cooperative party that has their tactics down well.


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## Plane Sailing (Jun 10, 2007)

Herremann the Wise said:
			
		

> In reference to your arguments, check out the two pictures in Heroes of Horror in regards to the Tainted Minion and Tainted Reaver. These illustrations show a reasonable (at least in terms of fantasy) depiction of a spiked chain in action. For those without access to the book, two large rings act as handhold with a regular chain between them. On the other end of each of these handholds is the spiked part of the chain.




The tainted reaver is quite an interesting picture actually - you can see that his left hand is actually gripping a spiked part of the chain (beyond the ring), and that there is blood coming off his hand!


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## Moon-Lancer (Jun 10, 2007)

well he does look the crazy type does he not? 

He is probably enjoying it.


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## Stalker0 (Jun 11, 2007)

Go with knight 3/fighter X for spiked chain love.

PC approached Cheeser, and gets tripped. Next round he stands up, provoking an AOO. Because of the knight ability, if he tries to move forward or back you get another AOO. Trip again, or just wail on him. If he gets closer to him, on your move take a 5 foot step back. Guess what? Your opponent CANNOT take a 5 foot step (as he is in difficult terrain due to the knight ability). So he moves toward you, taking another AOO, and only gets 1 attack because he had to move and not take a 5 foot step. Rinse and repeat.

Granted, most of this can be done with any reach weapon, but the Spiked Chain takes it up a notch.

If your going to use a spiked chain guy against your party, use one of them and a raging barb and watch the party sweat. Being prone is bad, being prone when the barb gets an extra +8 damage due to power attack (the +4 to attack = +8 damage with same to hit chance), and things get a hairy.


Oh...and I'm a Taki man myself


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## hong (Jun 11, 2007)

Stalker0 said:
			
		

> Oh...and I'm a Taki man myself




It's the nipples, isn't it?


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## Darklone (Jun 11, 2007)

Spiked chain dudes: 
Well, some time ago I built a two man team, one spiked chain dude and a bloodsorcerer. The chainman was supposed to keep the enemies from the sorcerer who blasted everything away.

Read my sigged short story if you want to know how it ended.


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## Stalker0 (Jun 11, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> It's the nipples, isn't it?




Came in for the nipples, stayed for the speed, the combos, and the look when you counterattack every move an opponent makes.


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## UnsocialEntity (Jun 11, 2007)

If you want a chain fighter that's strong, ignore all the tripping nonsense. Tripping is useful in a group to control the battle, but I know you're looking for something to inspire true fear in your party, right..?   

So we want a goliath (+1 LA) that's 6/1/2 fighter/barb/crusader. Take the dungeonscape "dungeoncrasher" fighter alternative, knockback feat, spiked chain feat (duh), combat reflexes, barbarian alternative feature for pounce, shock trooper. Maybe improved initiative so you can get a high initiative and ensure a charge. Not like you won't have a crapload of feats from fighter. Oh and feel free to take whirlwind frenzy rage variant from unearthed arcana for one extra attack.

With dungeoncrasher and knockback, you're bullrushing them into walls/trees/etc (direct the bullrush to a wall perfectly with shocktrooper), and causing weapon damage plus 8d6 + 3 x str. With pounce from barbarian and the ridiculous reach of a large spiked chain, you should be able to charge and slam a low str/AC character into the wall a few times... If you manage to slam them 3 times on the charge, just with dungeoncrasher alone you'd cause 24d6 + 9 x str. Don't forget to use heedless charge from shock trooper to keep your attack high even while power attacking for the full 10 BAB.

Anyways, on top of all this, you added crusader for a reason. You'll be able to grab thicket of blades stance at crusader 2, so if someone even tries to make a 5 foot step adjustment within your considerable threat range, you're slamming them in the face. 

If you fear casters, feel free to add in the feat mage slayer, so that all the casters in your threat range can't cast defensively too.

Anyways, be careful with that build, because if you focus on one PC you're gonna drop them. If the goliath has a buddy like a cleric or wizard that can buff him up, it gets even more ridiculous.

Have fun with the goliath face hunter.


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## Bagpuss (Jun 11, 2007)

Stalker0 said:
			
		

> Go with knight 3/fighter X for spiked chain love.
> 
> PC approached Cheeser, and gets tripped. Next round he stands up, provoking an AOO. Because of the knight ability, if he tries to move forward or back you get another AOO. Trip again, or just wail on him. If he gets closer to him, on your move take a 5 foot step back. Guess what? Your opponent CANNOT take a 5 foot step (as he is in difficult terrain due to the knight ability). So he moves toward you, taking another AOO, and only gets 1 attack because he had to move and not take a 5 foot step. Rinse and repeat.




Erm he used a move action to get up and another to move towards you so he doesn't even get the single attack.

He could however take a 5ft step back, or withdraw without problems since the difficult terrain penalties only apply for the square you are entering not leaving.



> Granted, most of this can be done with any reach weapon, but the Spiked Chain takes it up a notch.




It can't with a normal reach weapon you don't threaten adjacent squares so they don't count as difficult terrain, so he can take a 5ft step towards you because you only suffer terrain penalties for squares you enter while moving.

The only problem with a Knight build as I've mentioned it to three GM's I play with, and they all think a knight taking an AoO on an opponent getting off the floor is sort of going against the Knight's Code, and taking a cheap shot at a guy when he isn't ready to fight. 

If you are using the Knight build then you want that feat in PHB2 that lets you take an AoO against an opponent that doesn't move. So if they move you get an AoO because even a 5ft step is a 10ft move due to your Bullwark of Defense, and if they don't move you get and AoO from that feat.


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## Darklone (Jun 11, 2007)

Bagpuss said:
			
		

> The only problem with a Knight build as I've mentioned it to three GM's I play with, and they all think a knight taking an AoO on an opponent getting off the floor is sort of going against the Knight's Code, and taking a cheap shot at a guy when he isn't ready to fight.



Heeheehee, ya know, it's called Code of Honor 

Me like cool style moves in duels. Yet I wouldn't mind a knight whacking away at crawling or standing opponents in a battle.


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## Stalker0 (Jun 11, 2007)

Darklone said:
			
		

> Heeheehee, ya know, it's called Code of Honor




The DM is always right of course, but the knight's code is not the vague paladin's code, its actually VERY specific in what it disallows. Anything else is an interpretation not supported by the rules.


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## wildstarsreach (Jun 12, 2007)

My friend Takasi came up with a dwarven knight cohort build as a chain fighter to impede the enemies movements while protecting his character.  He went with another cohort but this was an interesting one.


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## Bagpuss (Jun 12, 2007)

Stalker0 said:
			
		

> The DM is always right of course, but the knight's code is not the vague paladin's code, its actually VERY specific in what it disallows. Anything else is an interpretation not supported by the rules.




Flavour text and rules are intermixed with the Knight's Code of Honour. For example it says a knight doesn't hit an opponent who isn't ready. If you are getting up off the floor, you aren't ready to fight (hence you get the AoO), but should a Knight really take advantage of that situation?


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## Rvdvelden (Jun 12, 2007)

> Next round he stands up, provoking an AOO. Because of the knight ability, if he tries to move forward or back you get another AOO




I thought you could only get 1 AoO per round against a given character, no matter how much AoO's he provokes and how many you still have left?


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## The Blow Leprechaun (Jun 12, 2007)

Rvdvelden said:
			
		

> I thought you could only get 1 AoO per round against a given character, no matter how much AoO's he provokes and how many you still have left?



You can only get 1 AOO per provocation, but if the same character keeps provoking AOOs on the same turn and you've got AOOs left to make, I believe you can continue wailing on them for it.


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## werk (Jun 12, 2007)

The Blow Leprechaun said:
			
		

> You can only get 1 AOO per provocation, but if the same character keeps provoking AOOs on the same turn and you've got AOOs left to make, I believe you can continue wailing on them for it.




Only one for movement.  If he leaves two threatened squares, you only get one.  If he leaves a square, then casts a spell, you get two if you are able to make two/rd.


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## The Blow Leprechaun (Jun 12, 2007)

http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/initiativeAndAoO.html

Yeah, all of their movement counts as one provocation for you.


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## Bagpuss (Jun 13, 2007)

Okay but does standing up (a move action) count as movement?


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## robberbaron (Jun 13, 2007)

Only time one of my gribblies used a spiked chain it was a Nalfeshnee (the gribbly, not the chain). Suffered from lack of Combat Reflexes but nice nonetheless.

Let the PCs level a couple of times and I might do something similar, only somewhat more specialised.


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## Darklone (Jun 13, 2007)

Bagpuss said:
			
		

> Okay but does standing up (a move action) count as movement?



Nope, that's a ME action, not movement.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#standUp


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## The Blow Leprechaun (Jun 13, 2007)

But remember, since the AOO interrupts the action being taken, you can't trip someone when they try and stand up from prone - they're still prone when you get your AOO (with -4 AC).


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## UltimaGabe (Jun 13, 2007)

The thing I want to point out is that almost all of the arguments here about why the Spiked Chain is "cheesy" or "overpowered" could be emulated almost perfectly by ANY REACH WEAPON. A Guisarme or Ranseur can do exactly what the Spiked Chain does (since not many of you are talking about BOTH tripping and disarming- the problem seems to be more about tripping than anything else) and they have the exact same reach. True, you can use a Spiked Chain within 5 feet, whereas a Guisarme can NOT be used within 5 feet, but that's not really what's being argued, is it? A Guisarme still gives you AoOs. A Guisarme still gives you the ability to trip your opponent. Heck, a Guisarme and Spiked Chain even deal the same damage, with the same crit multiplier! And if you're that worried about threatening within 5 feet, give your character a spiked gauntlet or armor spikes, and you're set.

See? It's not the Spiked Chain that's the problem, it's reach weapons in general. And is anyone claiming there's a problem with reach weapons?


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## Moon-Lancer (Jun 13, 2007)

spiked chain is only an x2. the Guisarm is an x3. I think that only further demonstrates your point though.


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## The Blow Leprechaun (Jun 13, 2007)

The Blow Leprechaun said:
			
		

> The synergy with Combat Reflexes is great, but every reach weapon achieves the exact same effect when combined with this. That's one of the major uses of the feat. Without a reach weapon, it's a pretty silly feat to take - not useless, but not all that use_ful_, either.
> 
> I could almost exactly emulate the abilities of a spiked chain by having armor spikes and wielding a guisarme (all I'd lose is a +2 to disarm) - and I wouldn't even need to spend a feat on an Exotic Weapon Proficiency. I'd even have a better crit multiplier! Would that be cheesy, or just powergaming?



I think I covered that point already


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## GammaPaladin (Mar 5, 2008)

Moon-Lancer said:
			
		

> Well their have been good examples of the spiked chain. I remember one with the spiked chain making its way into the foreground of the picture.



I saw this picture once, and I can't find it again!

If _anyone_ can point me in the right direction, please help!

[EDIT: N/M, finally found it after hours of search. Was posted over on rpg.net. Don't know what it's from though.]


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## Elethiomel (Mar 5, 2008)

Sure you do both tripping and disarming. And you threaten *all* squares within your reach, that's what makes it so cheesy. Okay, here's how to make a NPC tripmonkey disarmer to make your party run home to mama in tears:
 - Be Large
 - Be Strong
 - Be Dextrous
These three qualities can be had many ways, but the easiest is to go with the Maug from the fiend folio. For extra bonus points, give the Maug a level of Warmind as well for the Expansion power so he can be Huge.
 - Take Combat Reflexes
 - Take Improved Trip
 - Take Improved Disarm
This necessitates some levels in Fighter. If you still have levels left over, put them in Exotic Weapon Master for the Exotic Reach stunt and the extra damage stunt.

Now, if someone is stupid enough to provoke an AoO from you (which they will be, especially if you're huge and threaten 30' in every direction) you trip them, then use the free attack you get from Improved Trip to Disarm them, now that you're at a +4 bonus and they're at a -4 penalty. Now they're prone and have no weapon and you've used exactly one AoO. 
-If they want to crawl anywhere, you wail on them (and they leave their weapon behind). 
-If they pick up their weapon you wail on them. If they pick up their weapon and crawl away you first wail on them and then disarm them. 
-If they get up you wail on them. 
-If they pick up their weapon and get up you first wail on them and then disarm them (since they're considered prone for the getting-up AoO you still get the prone bonus and they the penalty for the Disarm attempt). 
-If they get up and then pick up their weapon you wail on them and then trip-disarm them.

Once you have a melee weapon wielder inside your reach, they are not getting out with their weapon and without a lot of damage. If I have time later I'll put together a CR10 Maug Warmind/Fighter/EWM.


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## Jack99 (Mar 5, 2008)

Just threw something together, so I hope I didn't make too many mistakes. 

Egghead, Ogre fighter level 7 (cr10)
str 14->24
dex15->13
con 13->14(lvl)->18
int 17->13
wis 8->8
cha 8->4

HP: 4d8+16+7d10+28
saves: +13/+4/+2

Feats: (4 for HD/levels, 4 for fighter) Weapon focus, weapon spec, exotic weapon, combat expertise, improved trip, power attack, combat reflexes, hold the line

bab+10
mwk large spiked chain: +18/+13 2d6+12
full power attack: +8/+3 2d6+32 (use when target is down)

Key for him to cause problems to a party, is to get close to the casters as soon as possible. Items: +str, +saves (especially will), extra actions/move and of course, some AC won't hurt.

Cheers


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## green slime (Mar 5, 2008)

No, it isn't cheesy. Its the Improved Trip which is cheesy, IMO.


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## Elethiomel (Mar 5, 2008)

green slime said:
			
		

> No, it isn't cheesy. Its the Improved Trip which is cheesy, IMO.



Maybe so. But Improved Trip gets even more cheesy when you combine it with the omnireach of the Spiked Chain and the Disarm bonus of the Spiked Chain.


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## Andras (Mar 6, 2008)

I'm just about to introduce a Goliath Barbarian/Fighter as a replacement for my current character.

He has Mountain Rage so he is actually large when raging, and I'm taking Dungeon Crasher for the Fighter.

20' reach when Raging, Combat Reflexes, Knockback, Power Attack, Imp BullRush, Shocktrooper.


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## Slaved (Mar 6, 2008)

You could save yourself a feat Jack99 by just using the Guisarme. You could spend the extra feat on Melee Weapon Mastery!


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## Animal (Mar 6, 2008)

why use goliath? i might also suggest that you should try Jotunbrud feat from RoF instead of LA races. a large spiked chain isn't worth +1 LA.


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## Andras (Mar 6, 2008)

Because of Goliath Barbarian Racial Substitution Level 1: Mountain Rage.

I dont have a feat slot to spare, and I'm not a spellcaster, so I don't mind the LA hit. 
The 12hd ftr/barb will be more powerful then the 14hd monk he'll be replacing.


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## green slime (Mar 7, 2008)

Elethiomel said:
			
		

> Maybe so. But Improved Trip gets even more cheesy when you combine it with the omnireach of the Spiked Chain and the Disarm bonus of the Spiked Chain.




Its only the Improved Trip cheese which makes it bad. The spiked chain is really by itself a substandard weapon: it does little damage, and has an even worse crit. IMC, I removed the free attack granted from a successful Trip attempt. Suddenly it wasn't such a big issue.


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## eamon (Mar 7, 2008)

I vote "not worried" about spiked chain and Improved trip.  If a player intends to use it cheesily, then make em aware that all somewhat-intelligent combatants will instinctively try to avoid AoO's and thus stop at the reaches edge - and note that such stopped combatants also provide soft cover, meaning that the next combatant can usually walk a field further without provoking an AoO.

Seriously, It's annoying maybe, but not horribly so, and not much more so than many other player abilities.  The druid with the high wisdom casting plain old entangle tends to stop my humanoid masses far more effectively, and that's just a level one spell.  And entangled creatures take a -2 attack and -4 dex penalty, meaning that they can't even use ranged combat very effectively.  A spiked chain also doesn't work well when partially surrounded by allies.

Also, enemies can (and do IMC) tumble to avoid AoO's, so if they're the dextrous type, let em try that.  Failure to tumble just means they take the AoO nevertheless, so it's not really a problem.  Finally, you can also oppose using Dex, so some combatants actually manage, despite being human.  And even a strong fighter (20 str, +9 trip check) tripping a halfling (8str, -5 trip check) has an unfortunately high chance of actually being countertripped, which actually therefore occaisionally happens (though more usually with stronger opponents) and is very annoying to the fighter.  And unlike many other specialists, this one can't really scale well: he'll never be much good at tripping ogres, and be outright useless against larger opponents.

Having seen an effective, but not game-breaking exotic weapon master maxed out tripper, I'm not worried.  It's more tactical work for the DM, but not problematic.


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## Felix (Mar 7, 2008)

Elethiomel said:
			
		

> Okay, here's how to make a NPC tripmonkey disarmer to make your party run home to mama in tears:
> - Be Large
> - Be Strong
> - Be Dextrous



Only if the party doesn't have someone capable of casting a Will save spell.

Seriously, if you put all your resources into doing one thing extraordinarily well, yes, you'll do that thing very well, but you'll open yourself to some glaring weaknesses while you're at it.


----------



## Set (Mar 7, 2008)

I'm kinda partial to those feats that let you use a Spiked Chain as a double weapon (but not as a reach weapon, at the same time).

Although I prefer that the chain does 1d6 B damage, or 1d4 P with a hooked end.  2d4 is an odd number, and the spiked chain doesn't seem to be mechanically viable.  (As anyone who has ever tried to throw a sheet of paper knows, they tend to flip up and 'hit' flat side first, losing force and not 'cutting' through the air.  With a spiked chain the effect would be greatly exagerrated, due to the movement of the links.  A spiked ball, or weight, would be way more likely to strike for damaging effect than any sort of blade, which would be *more* likely to strike flat-end agaisnt the target to little effect.  Blades work better on inflexible handles, such as sword pommels or axe-handles.)

That being said, even with reduced damage, the Chain is as effective as any other 'Exotic' weapon (none of which seem worth a Feat, IMO).  With full damage, it's probably the only Exotic Weapon that is worth a feat.


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## cignus_pfaccari (Mar 7, 2008)

green slime said:
			
		

> Its only the Improved Trip cheese which makes it bad. The spiked chain is really by itself a substandard weapon: it does little damage, and has an even worse crit. IMC, I removed the free attack granted from a successful Trip attempt. Suddenly it wasn't such a big issue.




And if the (N)PCs being tripped aren't excessively hindered by being tripped, it's even less of an issue.

It's just as easy to cast a spell lying on your back as it is to do so standing up.

Brad


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## Elethiomel (Mar 7, 2008)

Felix said:
			
		

> Only if the party doesn't have someone capable of casting a Will save spell.
> 
> Seriously, if you put all your resources into doing one thing extraordinarily well, yes, you'll do that thing very well, but you'll open yourself to some glaring weaknesses while you're at it.



Sorry, Maugs are constructs and hence immune to mind affecting spells.


----------



## Felix (Mar 8, 2008)

Elethiomel said:
			
		

> Sorry, Maugs are constructs and hence immune to mind affecting spells.



This changes little; that'll take care of the Will saves, but since it has that power as well, there should either be a complimentary weakness or the monster should be thrown at tougher PCs.

How crippling is its LA and racial HD?

If it's large, the ECL* goes up.
If it is immune to all mind-affecting spells, the ECL goes up.
If you dedicate the bulk of your ability increases to Dexterity and Strength _without_ sacrificing any or many of your other stats, the ECL goes up.
If you are not saddled with many sub-par racial HD, the ECL goes up.
If you make up for racial HD and a dearth of feats by adding class levels, the ECL goes up.

Saying that the Maug does not follow any of these forms would be similar to me introducing a monster that had a 1000hp, 30s for all its stats, base 50 move, perfect flying, SR 20+HD, DR 30/--, no LA, unsurvivable melee, ranged, and innate magical attacks, and the darned thing has a CR of 1. It's taking the example _ad absurdum_, but you can clearly see that my monster is too strong for its CR. 

If your Maug's CR represents its abilities and defenses, it will be a survivable encounter for the appropriate PCs, and naturally overwhelming for PCs whose party is too low a level. Focusing its power in melee tripping combat will leave it at the mercy of ranged attacks and non-[Mind-affecting] Will save spells. (_And if you throw it at the PCs in an environment where ranged attacks are difficult if not impossible, and the only arcanist is an Enchanter, the EL of the encounter should go up._)

At the point where the monster is too strong for its CR, whether or not it trips anyone is besides the point; the combat style ceases to matter. Tripping will be equally as abusive as a Huge Greatsword wielding Power Attacking Cleave machine: the only novel element introduced by the Tripping Maug as opposed to the Greatsword Maug is tedium.

I should say at this point that if the Maug were considered the forerunner to Warforged, the game designers wisely removed the immunity to all [Mind-affecting] spells.




Also, if you really want to make your PCs cry, attack them with a hybrid Stirge/Black Pudding, where every time you damage a Stirge, they split and _voila_!, you have a new CON-draining vector. CON-draining: _that's_ terror.






*Since this thread has been mostly about PCs, I used ECL, but CR can easily be substituted in all of those.


----------



## Elethiomel (Mar 8, 2008)

Felix said:
			
		

> If your Maug's CR represents its abilities and defenses, it will be a survivable encounter for the appropriate PCs, and naturally overwhelming for PCs whose party is too low a level. Focusing its power in melee tripping combat will leave it at the mercy of ranged attacks and non-[Mind-affecting] Will save spells. (_And if you throw it at the PCs in an environment where ranged attacks are difficult if not impossible, and the only arcanist is an Enchanter, the EL of the encounter should go up._)
> 
> At the point where the monster is too strong for its CR at whether or not it trips anyone is besides the point; the combat style ceases to matter. Tripping will be equally as abusive as a Huge Greatsword wielding Power Attacking Cleave machine: the only novel element introduced by the Tripping Maug as opposed to the Greatsword Maug is tedium.




I get what you're saying, I really do. But your last statement just wrong - the difference between the tripping Maug and the greatsword Maug is more than tedium. You can get to the greatsword Maug and damage it in melee - and HP are constructs' weakness, because they do not have a CON score. You can not get to the spiked-chain wielding Maug and damage it in melee. It's very nearly impossible, that's how improbable it is. Hence there is a large difference.

And I see the rationale that this (smart feat and gear selection) should increase its CR. I do not, however, agree. I think that character optimisation is not just for PCs. I do agree, however, that you shouldn't just throw this CR10 Maug at any party. You should throw it at players who are decently into optimisation because it will cater to their play style to get around such a tactical, well-built opponent.

I am of the opinion that the CR system is broken and becomes more and more so the higher level you play at. Party composition and individual strengths and weaknesses just matter too much, and any encounter should be analysed for how it interacts with these.

All that said, my example tripper was envisioned to be the most effective tripper I could think of on short notice, while covering up the "achilles heels" of the build as well as possible.


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## Zelc (Mar 8, 2008)

I think a lot of the "Spiked Chain is cheesy" sentiment comes from people looking at an optimal spiked chain build and comparing it to the non-optimized characters that frequent their campaigns.  In this sense, I'd agree: the spiked chain build would be overpowered.  However, so would most optimized builds.  I'd guess the other part of the sentiment comes from the frustration of being locked down as opposed to simply killed very quickly (as other optimized builds often do).

Compared against optimized builds, reach weapons and Stand Still or Improved Trip make the fighter at least somewhat competitive and useful compared to CoDZilla and full casters.  There was a thread on the official CharOp forums where someone built a Stand Still + Thicket of Blades lockdown fighter.  Even with such an optimized build, it still relied on an item of 1/day Anti-Magic Field to lock down casters, and even then, there were methods of escaping the lock.  Some of the suggested methods include Tower Shields to block the AMF emanation or to escape without an AoO, Smokesticks to provide concealment and block AoOs, and an Animal Companion or Elemental Companion grappling you out of the lock.  The lockdown build is also far less effective against monsters with reach.  I'd say the lockdown build is on par with a mildly-optimized full caster build, especially without the AMF.

Ironically, the revised and possibly improved version of the Lockdown build used a glaive, not a spiked chain.  As a Crusader, it couldn't spare the feat for Exotic Weapon Proficiency.


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## Felix (Mar 8, 2008)

Elethiomel said:
			
		

> You can get to the greatsword Maug and damage it in melee - and HP are constructs' weakness, because they do not have a CON score. You can not get to the spiked-chain wielding Maug and damage it in melee.



The Power Attacking Greatsword wielding Maug will deal more damage, and go through more PCs who think that closing to melee is a good idea, than the Chain wielder. The PCs won't have the hilarious time getting tripped, but how much more hilarious is getting Cloven?



> And I see the rationale that this (smart feat and gear selection) should increase its CR. I do not, however, agree. I think that character optimisation is not just for PCs.



Nor do I suggest such. I merely suggest that if you make the NPC more difficult to overcome, the Challenge Rating, designed to reflect the difficulty of overcoming the challenge, should increase. It doesn't mean that NPCs shouldn't optimize, only that DMs should take into consideration how much harder they're making things for the PCs.

A straight-from-the-monster-manual goblin has a CR 1/3. The CR rises when you add levels in Fighter. If you agree that a level 10 goblin fighter shouldn't be a CR 1/3, then what's the significant difference between that and raising the CR of a Maug who takes optimized feats and is only encountered in environments that gives the advantage to the Maug?



> I am of the opinion that the CR system is broken and becomes more and more so the higher level you play at.



At first level all parties have a sort of parity. At 15th you can have a wide gulf between one party and the next. Which is why the CR system is "broken" at higher levels: there is no possible way for any system to anticipate the strength and weaknesses of an infinite number of party compositions. Such fine-tuning necessarily must be left to the DM, who is the only one familiar with the strengths and weaknesses of his particular group. The CR system gives the DM a good starting point for NPC challenges, but a DM will feel betrayed if he (erroneously) believes the CR system is a rubber stamp that needs no input from him.



> All that said, my example tripper was envisioned to be the most effective tripper I could think of on short notice, while covering up the "achilles heels" of the build as well as possible.



That's just it: the Achilles' heel of tripping is its intended target: small numbers of Small and Medium bipedal creatures. If you confine yourself to always attacking those enemies, you'll be a wunderkind. If you run into wargs, monsterous spiders, giants, centaurs, dwarves, dragons, oozes, waves of zombies and skeletons, stirges, et cetera, on any kind of regular basis, the combat style you spent your resources developing will count for Jack.

And Jack left town.

(The natural response is that parties are made up of small numbers of Small and Medium bipedal creatures. Which would make Tripping a pain in the butt if the DM kept throwing optimized tripper after optimized tripper. Throwing wave after wave of ranged opponents against melee parties would do likewise. Construct after construct against a party of rogues. Only undead against parties lacking clerical support. Tripping is not unique in this regard.)


----------



## Elethiomel (Mar 8, 2008)

Felix said:
			
		

> That's just it: the Achilles' heel of tripping is its intended target: small numbers of Small and Medium bipedal creatures. If you confine yourself to always attacking those enemies, you'll be a wunderkind. If you run into wargs, monsterous spiders, giants, centaurs, dwarves, dragons, oozes, waves of zombies and skeletons, stirges, et cetera, on any kind of regular basis, the combat style you spent your resources developing will count for Jack.




Wrong again. I played a PC tripper Maug (though not nearly as monstrous as one with a level in Warmind and using a Spiked Chain to get the disarm cheese on top of it) and have successfully tripped, of the above:
Wargs,
Monstrous spiders,
giants (including Huge ones),
centaurs,
dragons (including Large ones),
and for waves of many monsters, my tripper had 8 AOOs a round. That's beginning to be rather a lot of enemies for one character to keep crowd controlled.


----------



## Felix (Mar 8, 2008)

> I played a PC tripper Maug



May I ask (again) what the LA and racial HD burden of a Maug is?


----------



## Elethiomel (Mar 8, 2008)

Felix said:
			
		

> May I ask (again) what the LA and racial HD burden of a Maug is?



2 racial HD, +3 LA

You can find the full stats in the Fiend Folio. Your comments on ECL vs "real power" earlier I took to be rhetorical. I could just as easily have tripped all those different kinds of monsters with a minotaur, ogre, half-giant or other Large race with a high Strength bonus.


----------



## Felix (Mar 9, 2008)

Elethiomel said:
			
		

> 2 racial HD, +3 LA
> 
> You can find the full stats in the Fiend Folio.



As was understood. Don't have the book, though. I did see on the interweb several examples of PC Maugs that were clearly broken. As in, no racial HD and only +1 LA. Which is why I asked. Yours does not seem nearly as unreasonable as those others. I'm confident we can hash this out...

Large. That's +1 LAish.

Huge Stat bonus without accompanying huge penalty. Another +1 LA.

Immunity to every [Mind-affecting] spell. _At least_ +1 LA. I'd not be surprised for consensus to make it more.

So that's the LA taken care of. Any thing else? Construct traits other than the aforementioned immunity? Natural Armor? Bonus to HD based on size? Immunity to Magic? SR? DR?



> Your comments on ECL vs "real power" earlier I took to be rhetorical.



Re-read them: ECLs and CRs don't exist in a vacuum. See also the not-CR 1/3 Goblin Fighter 10.

An encounter between an enchanter and 4 low-Wisdom, low-Will save PCs is going to be more difficult than a fighter versus those same PCs because the fighter cannot exploit their weakness.

An encounter with your tripmonster is going to be more difficult in an environment that prohibits ranged attacks.

An EL 10 full of constructs is going to be harder for a party of rogues than an EL 10 of human guards.​
Do you not agree that the circumstances of the fight, and the corresponding strengths and weaknesses of the combatants, will change how hard it is for one group to defeat another? Because if you do, I fail to see why you are reluctant to apply it to your Huge MetaMind Immune-to-[Mind-affecting] Tripping machine.



> I could just as easily have tripped all those different kinds of monsters with a minotaur, ogre, half-giant or other Large race with a high Strength bonus.



You had 8 AoO's and enough Strength to trip a Huge Giant. Did your other stats suffer from your focus in Dex and Str? Was the character creation of this Maug extraordinary beyond being allowed to play a Maug in the first place?

I'm following this line of questioning because I believe you have presented an extraordinary case as evidence that a standard mechanic and weapon are broken. The possibility of a CR 1 monster with 1000hp and 30's for stats does not mean CRs are broken; have you considered that your experience with your Maug proves only that the mechanic _can be_ broken instead of necessitating that it is?

Also, do you often play monstrous PCs? Or are the majority of your PCs drawn from the PHB races?


----------



## Elethiomel (Mar 9, 2008)

Felix said:
			
		

> As was understood. Don't have the book, though. I did see on the interweb several examples of PC Maugs that were clearly broken. As in, no racial HD and only +1 LA. Which is why I asked. Yours does not seem nearly as unreasonable as those others. I'm confident we can hash this out...
> 
> Large. That's +1 LAish.
> 
> ...



Then there's no possibility of raising HP based on CON, as he doesn't have one, and you're not counting those two HD of "construct" in there which contribute 0 to any save.
Large is not only positive. I don't see Large as being +1 LA by itself.

Anyway, I don't have a problem with the Maug by itself. But we'll come to that.



			
				Felix said:
			
		

> Re-read them: ECLs and CRs don't exist in a vacuum. See also the not-CR 1/3 Goblin Fighter 10.



Which I skipped as an irrelevancy because a Goblin Fighter 10 is not CR 1/3 by default, and hence arguing that it isn't is pointless.



			
				Felix said:
			
		

> An encounter between an enchanter and 4 low-Wisdom, low-Will save PCs is going to be more difficult than a fighter versus those same PCs because the fighter cannot exploit their weakness.
> 
> An encounter with your tripmonster is going to be more difficult in an environment that prohibits ranged attacks.
> 
> An EL 10 full of constructs is going to be harder for a party of rogues than an EL 10 of human guards.​



Well, point by point:
Yes, but I don't see any point in tailor-making my encounters to my PCs in one way or another, except as fits the theme of the campaign. If all the players decide to roll up characters with low Will saves when I've already decided (as the GM) that all the trouble all over the countryside is brewed up by a high-level enchanter messing with peoples' minds, then that's too bad for the PCs.

I don't see how my tripmonster is so very vurnerable to ranged attacks. He has a reach of 30' if Huge, and that's where you'll find most ranged characters who sneak attack or has point blank shot anyway. Plus, I had in mind gear choices to make ranged attacking harder if I actually put a build together (specifically, the idiotic Animated Shield with the crystal that gives bonus AC against ranged attacks attached).

Finally, yes, EL10 of constructs against a party of rogues is pretty lame. So what? I'm not running a campaing for a party of rogues here. If I was, all encounters would be with buildings that needed entering, marks that needed conning, and the town guard. Now if the campaign was nonspecific and everybody decided to make a rogue *anyway*, sure. That's their problem. Now they can use all their rogue skills to bypass the encounter instead of fighting it (in which case it becomes an "impassable room" problem rather than a "fight" problem - and that method of making an "impassable room" I might well employ in an all-rogue campaign too.)



			
				Felix said:
			
		

> Do you not agree that the circumstances of the fight, and the corresponding strengths and weaknesses of the combatants, will change how hard it is for one group to defeat another? Because if you do, I fail to see why you are reluctant to apply it to your Huge MetaMind Immune-to-[Mind-affecting] Tripping machine.




Because he's not circumstances, he's an NPC made within the rules. He's optimised, yes, but if the PCs are too, that's fair.




			
				Felix said:
			
		

> You had 8 AoO's and enough Strength to trip a Huge Giant. Did your other stats suffer from your focus in Dex and Str? Was the character creation of this Maug extraordinary beyond being allowed to play a Maug in the first place?



32 point buy. 
And no, I didn't have enough Strength to trip a Huge Giant. I had enough Strength, Feats, Items, and Buffs *put together* to trip a Huge Giant.




			
				Felix said:
			
		

> I'm following this line of questioning because I believe you have presented an extraordinary case as evidence that a standard mechanic and weapon are broken. The possibility of a CR 1 monster with 1000hp and 30's for stats does not mean CRs are broken; have you considered that your experience with your Maug proves only that the mechanic _can be_ broken instead of necessitating that it is?
> 
> Also, do you often play monstrous PCs? Or are the majority of your PCs drawn from the PHB races?




I often play monstrous PCs. I often GM. As a GM, I tailor the challenge to the party as long as the party doesn't do something silly like all walk around with intelligence damage uncured because "they don't need it", or they all roll fighters and expect me never to use any will-save abilities against them. And many of my encounters are decided long before the first character is rolled up anyway.

I haven't presented an extraordinary case as evidence that a standard mechanic and weapon are broken. I don't believe the Trip mechanic is broken. I believe the Spiked Chain is broken because it allows ALL of:
 - Attacking at reach distance
 - Attacking at normal distance
 - Weapon Finesse
 - Two-handed 2:1 power attack exchange
 - Tripping
 - Disarm bonus

No other weapon not inspired by the spiked chain (it has a few derivatives) can do all these things. Granted, it has low base damage. That's not really a concern, as with some optimisation very little of your damage tends to come from the standard base damage of your weapon anyway. It has poor crit range *and* multiplier, which is somewhat of a balancing factor. I still don't think it balances *all those things* out though. Especially the two first points.

My envisioned build here was made in response to the OP who said, "There have been several threads regarding the Spiked Chain and its lack of sense as well as its supposed "overpoweredness". I'm not so sure this is actually true. I've been fiddling round with a 10th level character to throw at my PCs but for all the supposed smell, I can't find the cheese."

I envisioned a character to optimise the Spiked Chain. To do this, I went with something I knew (Maug tripper build) and poured on some extra cheese. I refused to go with the spiked chain when I originally made my PC Maug tripper, even though it would have cost me less feats, less class levels, and less discussions with my GM regarding what "fighting this way" when two-weapon-fighting means, and given me extra bonuses on top of it.


----------



## Felix (Mar 9, 2008)

Elethiomel said:
			
		

> Then there's no possibility of raising HP based on CON, as he doesn't have one, and you're not counting those two HD of "construct" in there which contribute 0 to any save.



I would count those construct HD against all the other benefits I asked you about. I still don't know if they have SR, DR, and other immunities.



> Large is not only positive. I don't see Large as being +1 LA by itself.



It certainly isn't +0 LA. Closer to +1, surely. What detriments do you weigh against reach (which factors into your chain-wielding tripmonkey)? -1 AC and Attack? When making a melee build, would you not gladly trade -1 AC and Attack for reach? Should a class ability that is immensely helpful to melee types not be charged +1 LA because it is a hindrance to spellcasters and rogues?



> Which I skipped as an irrelevancy because a Goblin Fighter 10 is not CR 1/3 by default, and hence arguing that it isn't is pointless.



Then how does granting Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, and Combat Reflexes to take advantage of the Chain's abilities not change the CR of the Maug? Why would that not increase its CR? What abilities do you think they look at when they calculate CR?



> Well, point by point:
> Yes, but I don't see any point in tailor-making my encounters to my PCs in one way or another, except as fits the theme of the campaign.



But you see how the challenge presented by the encounter is fluid, and not merely fixed by the CR of the opponent.



> I don't see how my tripmonster is so very vurnerable to ranged attacks.



Relative to melee attacks, yes. For the same reason the Terrasque is more vulnerable to ranged attacks. It's not an insta-kill, but I'd rather fight that thing from a distance. 



> Finally, yes, EL10 of constructs against a party of rogues is pretty lame. So what?



If you change the nature of the encounter, you change the difficulty. You changed your Maug, so why not adjust the EL accordingly?



> Because he's not circumstances, he's an NPC made within the rules. He's optimised, yes, but if the PCs are too, that's fair.



So you don't have a problem with allowing the environment in which the PCs fight to affect the EL of the encounter. Why would changing the build of a monster as written not have a similar effect when the CR is calculated based on the monster as written?



> 32 point buy.



Ok. Was it not a fair question, though?



> And no, I didn't have enough Strength to trip a Huge Giant. I had enough Strength, Feats, Items, and Buffs *put together* to trip a Huge Giant.



Fair to say. But if you are only able to do such a heroic thing by the combination of Strength, Feats, Items, and Buffs together, how does this make the Spiked Chain necessarily cheese?



> I haven't presented an extraordinary case as evidence that a standard mechanic and weapon are broken. I don't believe the Trip mechanic is broken. I believe the Spiked Chain is broken because it allows ALL of:
> - Attacking at reach distance
> - Attacking at normal distance
> - Weapon Finesse
> ...



Attacking at both normal and reach distance costs either a feat or a -4 nonproficiency penalty. *Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain*, 1.
And if you want to take advantage of the AoOs, that costs a feat. *Combat Reflexes*, 2.​
Weapon Finesse costs a feat. *Weapon Finesse*, 3.

Two-handed power attack costs a feat. *Power Attack*, 4.

Tripping is free, unless you want to be good at it, in which case it costs two feats. *Combat Expertise, Improved Trip*, 5 & 6a

Disarming is free, unless you want to be good at it, in which case it costs two feats. *Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm*, 5 & 6b

If you want to both Trip and Disarm, you get a discount and that's only 3 feats. *Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Improved Disarm*, 5, 6 & 7.



> Granted, it has low base damage. That's not really a concern, as with some optimisation very little of your damage tends to come from the standard base damage of your weapon anyway.



Optimization by way of more feats? Perhaps you mean Power Attack and a high Strength? In which case the ability to Finesse the thing counts for nothing.



> It has poor crit range *and* multiplier, which is somewhat of a balancing factor. I still don't think it balances *all those things* out though. Especially the two first points.



It doesn't have to balance out *all those things*. The options available for the Spiked Chain wielder are legion, but that does not mean that each option does not carry an associated cost; Fighter will be the only class that will make all of those options available. 

To effectively use Trip and Disarm, you need INT 13, which honestly is a common dump stat for fighters. It means his WIS will likely not be as high, so he won't be able to bolster his weak Will save.

To make best use of the weapon's reach, Combat Reflexes need be augmented by a high DEX. This will aid his Reflex save, Initiative, and AC; but fighters often do not need a high DEX because of their ability to wear heavy armors, and this also affords the fighter the ability to put that high stat in Con or Wis.

Power Attacking two-handed is nice, but when he does so with a spiked chain, he will crit half as often with smaller dice. This will be mitigated somewhat if he makes a few more attacks because of reach relative to a greatsword, but not so much relative to a glaive.

A fighter with a greatsword who does not spend feats on EWP, Combat Reflexes and Improved Trip can better afford Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and Improved Critical. Were they to both Power Attack, the greatsword will more likely hit (or hit harder): [+1 attack or +2 damage from another point of BAB via Weapon Focus]; will hit harder (+2 damage via Weapon Specialization); and will crit ~4 times as often. He'll also be ready to pick up the Improved versions of WF and WS.​


> My envisioned build here was made in response to the OP who said, "There have been several threads regarding the Spiked Chain and its lack of sense as well as its supposed "overpoweredness". I'm not so sure this is actually true. I've been fiddling round with a 10th level character to throw at my PCs but for all the supposed smell, I can't find the cheese."



Your 10th level Maug Fighter 5 Spiked Chain Tripper will have 6d10+10 HP (avg 43hp). A 10th level _Fireball_ does 35 points of damage on a failed save. And your base saves are Fort +4, Ref +1, Will +1. There are ways of protecting yourself from this common 3rd level spell, but the party will have to spend resources in doing so. Hardly any cheese there. Unless it's a Oscar Mayer Cheese-filled Glass Cannon.



> I refused to go with the spiked chain when I originally made my PC Maug tripper, even though it would have cost me less feats, less class levels, and less discussions with my GM regarding what "fighting this way" when two-weapon-fighting means, and given me extra bonuses on top of it.



Compared to Two Weapon Fighting, a Power Attacking Greatsword looks like cheese. I don't see how this should reflect poorly on the Spiked Chain.

-----------------

Simpler question:

How is your ECL 10 Maug tripmonkey significantly less cheesy (not that I think it is, but you do) when equipped with a Guisarme and corresponding feats as opposed to a Spiked Chain?


----------



## Elethiomel (Mar 9, 2008)

Felix said:
			
		

> I would count those construct HD against all the other benefits I asked you about. I still don't know if they have SR, DR, and other immunities.



They have SR, they do not have DR, they have standard construct immunities.




			
				Felix said:
			
		

> It certainly isn't +0 LA. Closer to +1, surely. What detriments do you weigh against reach (which factors into your chain-wielding tripmonkey)? -1 AC and Attack? When making a melee build, would you not gladly trade -1 AC and Attack for reach? Should a class ability that is immensely helpful to melee types not be charged +1 LA because it is a hindrance to spellcasters and rogues?



Because *each feature need not be charged an integer LA cost*. You can charge it .85 LA and then round up once all your LA adjustments are added together. This is more reasonable than considering each feature either 0, 1, or 2 LA, surely?




			
				Felix said:
			
		

> Then how does granting Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, and Combat Reflexes to take advantage of the Chain's abilities not change the CR of the Maug? Why would that not increase its CR? What abilities do you think they look at when they calculate CR?




Because like the Gnome Fighter 10 who is not CR 1/3, the Maug has class levels to gain all those feats and the CR adjustments for class levels are already set down in the rules. So you don't need to look at what feats it has to judge its CR, just its levels.




			
				Felix said:
			
		

> But you see how the challenge presented by the encounter is fluid, and not merely fixed by the CR of the opponent.



Yes. I have never disagreed with this. I only disagree that an optimised opponent facing an optimised party should have a CR adjustment merely because it is optimised.



			
				Felix said:
			
		

> Relative to melee attacks, yes. For the same reason the Terrasque is more vulnerable to ranged attacks. It's not an insta-kill, but I'd rather fight that thing from a distance.




Fortunately for the Maug, it is smart enough not to allow people to fight it at a distance for long.


			
				Felix said:
			
		

> If you change the nature of the encounter, you change the difficulty. You changed your Maug, so why not adjust the EL accordingly?



Oh, I did. I changed his CR *when I gave him levels*



			
				Felix said:
			
		

> So you don't have a problem with allowing the environment in which the PCs fight to affect the EL of the encounter. Why would changing the build of a monster as written not have a similar effect when the CR is calculated based on the monster as written?




See above regarding levels.




			
				Felix said:
			
		

> Ok. Was it not a fair question, though?



Maybe. I didn't think the question was very good seeing as you're harping on the Maug. If I'd only spent some time and effort into setting up another build, I might not have had to sit here and defend the maug ad nauseam.




			
				Felix said:
			
		

> Fair to say. But if you are only able to do such a heroic thing by the combination of Strength, Feats, Items, and Buffs together, how does this make the Spiked Chain necessarily cheese?



*I did not use the spiked chain in those instances*



			
				Felix said:
			
		

> Optimization by way of more feats? Perhaps you mean Power Attack and a high Strength? In which case the ability to Finesse the thing counts for nothing.



Wrong. If you want to optimise for AC and to-hit at once while neglecting damage directly from stats, you can get STR 13 and then get your DEX into the sky and take Weapon Finesse and Power Attack. The Spiked Chain is the only weapon with which you can use your DEX to hit while getting saucy returns from Power Attack.




			
				Felix said:
			
		

> It doesn't have to balance out *all those things*. The options available for the Spiked Chain wielder are legion, but that does not mean that each option does not carry an associated cost; Fighter will be the only class that will make all of those options available.




Yes, most of those carry an associated cost to do well. That doesn't mean the options aren't there if you want to do them without any special advantage (you know, except having a reach weapon which allows trip and gives a bonus to disarm thereby negating the biggest drawback of *not* having the feat, the attack of opportunity).



			
				Felix said:
			
		

> To effectively use Trip and Disarm, you need INT 13, which honestly is a common dump stat for fighters. It means his WIS will likely not be as high, so he won't be able to bolster his weak Will save.



See above.



			
				Felix said:
			
		

> To make best use of the weapon's reach, Combat Reflexes need be augmented by a high DEX. This will aid his Reflex save, Initiative, and AC; but fighters often do not need a high DEX because of their ability to wear heavy armors, and this also affords the fighter the ability to put that high stat in Con or Wis.




Yes, for your standard fighter that may be true. That doesn't negate the cheese I explained above.



			
				Felix said:
			
		

> Power Attacking two-handed is nice, but when he does so with a spiked chain, he will crit half as often with smaller dice. This will be mitigated somewhat if he makes a few more attacks because of reach relative to a greatsword, but not so much relative to a glaive.



Everyone on these forums seem to be very much concentrating on damage. I think you underestimate the power of having all your opponents be prone and without a weapon.




			
				Felix said:
			
		

> A fighter with a greatsword who does not spend feats on EWP, Combat Reflexes and Improved Trip can better afford Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and Improved Critical. Were they to both Power Attack, the greatsword will more likely hit (or hit harder): [+1 attack or +2 damage from another point of BAB via Weapon Focus]; will hit harder (+2 damage via Weapon Specialization); and will crit ~4 times as often. He'll also be ready to pick up the Improved versions of WF and WS.​



See above.




			
				Felix said:
			
		

> Your 10th level Maug Fighter 5 Spiked Chain Tripper will have 6d10+10 HP (avg 43hp). A 10th level _Fireball_ does 35 points of damage on a failed save. And your base saves are Fort +4, Ref +1, Will +1. There are ways of protecting yourself from this common 3rd level spell, but the party will have to spend resources in doing so. Hardly any cheese there. Unless it's a Oscar Mayer Cheese-filled Glass Cannon.



Congratulations! After many posts, you finally found the real achilles heel of the build. Sure, SR helps a little, but not nearly enough. And Orbs make Maugs cry. It's +20 for being a Large construct, btw. Oh, and this was one of the reasons my PC maug picked up 2 levels of Monk.




			
				Felix said:
			
		

> Compared to Two Weapon Fighting, a Power Attacking Greatsword looks like cheese. I don't see how this should reflect poorly on the Spiked Chain.



You have no idea about the context of those discussions: I was a Monk Maug with a Guisarme. Having both my Guisarme and Unarmed Strike available to fight with, I and the GM looked at Two-Weapon Fighting and had a discussion, the conclusion of which was that "Fighting this way" with two-weapon fighting referred to getting extra attacks with the "off hand" weapon, not substituting either weapon in a full attack, for example. Thus our conclusion was that my Maug did not have to take Two-Weapon Fighting to have both the Unarmed Strike and the Guisarme ready to attack at the same time. (monks can freely attack with other body parts than their hands).




			
				Felix said:
			
		

> Simpler question:
> 
> How is your ECL 10 Maug tripmonkey significantly less cheesy (not that I think it is, but you do) when equipped with a Guisarme and corresponding feats as opposed to a Spiked Chain?



My ECL 10 Maug Tripmonkey (who is a PC, as he has ECL 10 rather than CR 10; this is a significant difference) cannot in the event of someone actually *getting* to melee range just take a 5-foot-step away and trip-disarm them to render them unable to hurt him in melee next turn. He must move significantly further and has +2 less to his Disarm checks. The big hole in his reach that (if he is Huge) extends 15 feet from him where he can attack nothing is a big weakness.


----------



## Felix (Mar 9, 2008)

Elethiomel said:
			
		

> They have SR, they do not have DR, they have standard construct immunities.



Standard construct traits like the inability to heal via _Cure_ spells?



> Because *each feature need not be charged an integer LA cost*. You can charge it .85 LA and then round up once all your LA adjustments are added together. This is more reasonable than considering each feature either 0, 1, or 2 LA, surely?



I wonder how accurately "+1 LA*ish*" describes +.85 LA.



> Because like the Gnome Fighter 10 who is not CR 1/3, the Maug has class levels to gain all those feats and the CR adjustments for class levels are already set down in the rules. So you don't need to look at what feats it has to judge its CR, just its levels.
> 
> Yes. I have never disagreed with this. I only disagree that an optimised opponent facing an optimised party should have a CR adjustment merely because it is optimised.
> 
> Fortunately for the Maug, it is smart enough not to allow people to fight it at a distance for long.



Good for the Maug. But it's _more_ vulnerable to ranged attacks (like the 3rd level _Fireball_ that' so terrifying) than it is to melee attacks. Is there something you dislike about this?



> Oh, I did. I changed his CR *when I gave him levels*



And kept the feat it was given for its 2 racial HD? Well alright then.



> Maybe. I didn't think the question was very good seeing as you're harping on the Maug. If I'd only spent some time and effort into setting up another build, I might not have had to sit here and defend the maug ad nauseam.



You suggested that a Maug Spiked Chain tripper would cause PCs to run to momma. If the Maug has absurd abilities that make it more powerful than its CR warrants, then the reason PCs would run to momma would be inherent in the Maug _and not because of the Spiked Chain_.

If the Spiked Chain is broken, it shouldn't need a Construct from the Fiend Folio, a level in a Psionic Class, and, like your tripper Maug, a coordination between Items, Buffs, et al in order to prove it.



> *I did not use the spiked chain in those instances*



Exactly. Thank you for noting how you can do silly things like trip Huge Giants without resorting to the "cheese" of the spiked chain.



> Wrong. If you want to optimise for AC and to-hit at once while neglecting damage directly from stats, you can get STR 13 and then get your DEX into the sky and take Weapon Finesse and Power Attack. The Spiked Chain is the only weapon with which you can use your DEX to hit while getting saucy returns from Power Attack.



Hey, if you want to spend 3 feats (Power Attack, Weapon Finesse, and Exotic Weapon Prof) to do something a PC with a guisarme and heavy armor can do automatically, by all means. I wouldn't accuse it of being optimized, though.

Seriously, in this example, you'll be able to either hit easily or hit hard depending on how much you Power Attack. The guy with the guisiarme and heavy armor will have the AC, the attack bonus and the damage. He likely won't move as far, but a lockdown build doesn't rely on lots of movement.


Going to a flag football game, but...

_More to Come!_



> Yes, most of those carry an associated cost to do well. That doesn't mean the options aren't there if you want to do them without any special advantage (you know, except having a reach weapon which allows trip and gives a bonus to disarm thereby negating the biggest drawback of *not* having the feat, the attack of opportunity).
> 
> 
> See above.
> ...


----------



## Elethiomel (Mar 9, 2008)

Felix said:
			
		

> Standard construct traits like the inability to heal via _Cure_ spells?



Of course.


			
				Felix said:
			
		

> I wonder how accurately "+1 LA*ish*" describes +.85 LA.



.85 LA was an example figure.


			
				Felix said:
			
		

> Good for the Maug. But it's _more_ vulnerable to ranged attacks (like the 3rd level _Fireball_ that' so terrifying) than it is to melee attacks. Is there something you dislike about this?



Stop the psychoanalysis already.


			
				Felix said:
			
		

> And kept the feat it was given for its 2 racial HD? Well alright then.



No. I would not consider switching the feat an intelligent creature gets for its racial HD to have an impact on its CR.


			
				Felix said:
			
		

> You suggested that a Maug Spiked Chain tripper would cause PCs to run to momma. If the Maug has absurd abilities that make it more powerful than its CR warrants, then the reason PCs would run to momma would be inherent in the Maug _and not because of the Spiked Chain_.
> 
> If the Spiked Chain is broken, it shouldn't need a Construct from the Fiend Folio, a level in a Psionic Class, and, like your tripper Maug, a coordination between Items, Buffs, et al in order to prove it.
> 
> Exactly. Thank you for noting how you can do silly things like trip Huge Giants without resorting to the "cheese" of the spiked chain.



I *did not make this build to prove that the spiked chain was broken*. I wanted to provide the OP with a build that would maximise the cheese of the spiked chain by using other cheese along with it.



			
				Felix said:
			
		

> Hey, if you want to spend 3 feats (Power Attack, Weapon Finesse, and Exotic Weapon Prof) to do something a PC with a guisarme and heavy armor can do automatically, by all means. I wouldn't accuse it of being optimized, though.




The weapon-finesse spiked chain wielder can't use his spiked chain to trip very well, so the guisarme comparison is void. Yes, this means that one of the many options the spiked chain gives is mutually exclusive with one other option. Let me state clearly what I think is broken with the spiked chain: It allows attacks at reach-range and at nonreach-range at the same time. If you want the "most broken" bit, that's it right there.


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## Corsair (Mar 9, 2008)

I'm not entirely sure why this Maug is such a problem.


Fighter: Oh noes!  a Maugtripmonkey!

Wizard:  Really?  (*knowledge arcana roll*) That thing has a crappy will save normally.  ~~GLITTERDUST~~

Cleric:  Oh no, I can't tell if it made its save or not.  Just to be safe...  ~~OBSCURING MIST~~ *closes with Maug's last known location*

Fighter:  Thanks team!  *moves into the mist towards the possibly blind Maug who can't see them through the mist to trip them anyways*


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## Zelc (Mar 9, 2008)

If you think the spiked chain is so broken, then tell me why one of the most optimized lockdown builds uses a longspear.

Honestly, lockdown builds allow tanks to actually meet their job description and keep the monsters away from the squishies.  There is almost no incentive for a monster to attack a normal tank.  They can just move around him and kill the casters.  Lockdown builds tend to be everyone's best friend, allowing the rest of the party to shine while keeping them safe and setting up monsters for kills.

By the way, if you think lockdown builds are overpowered, tell me what you think of the Web + Solid Fog combo.  Or Wall of Thorns.  Or Black Tentacles.  Or Entangle.  Or Kelpstrand (ok this one is very powerful).


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## Felix (Mar 9, 2008)

Elethiomel said:
			
		

> It allows attacks at reach-range and at nonreach-range at the same time. If you want the "most broken" bit, that's it right there.



_Relative to polearms_
*Costs*: 1 feat or -4 non-proficiency penalty; sub-standard damage; sub-standard crit range and multiplier; Piercing damage.

*Benefit*: No need to take a 5-foot step; harder to Sunder.

I can see where not needing to move can be beneficial; yes, being able to attack at both 10' and 5' is handy; it's nice when your weapon doesn't break when you fight a Blackguard; but to consider the spiked chain broken you have to look at the costs and benefits and judge that the benefits far outweigh the costs.

It's much like the 3.0 monk: at first blush everyone thought it was overpowered because it got something at every level; the monk in play didn't live up to that judgment because of the costs associated with all those assorted benefits. Neither does the Spiked Chain.


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## Tetsubo (Mar 9, 2008)

Zelc said:
			
		

> If you think the spiked chain is so broken, then tell me why one of the most optimized lockdown builds uses a longspear.
> 
> Honestly, lockdown builds allow tanks to actually meet their job description and keep the monsters away from the squishies.  There is almost no incentive for a monster to attack a normal tank.  They can just move around him and kill the casters.  Lockdown builds tend to be everyone's best friend, allowing the rest of the party to shine while keeping them safe and setting up monsters for kills.
> 
> By the way, if you think lockdown builds are overpowered, tell me what you think of the Web + Solid Fog combo.  Or Wall of Thorns.  Or Black Tentacles.  Or Entangle.  Or Kelpstrand (ok this one is very powerful).




I would never allow such a "lockdown build" in any campaign I ran. I wouldn't play any such build even if it were allowed in a campaign I played in. Such builds are just silly.


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## Victim (Mar 9, 2008)

Polearm plus armor spikes (when 5 ft stepping is unavailable) can already allow for attacks at 10' and 5'.


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## Zelc (Mar 9, 2008)

Tetsubo said:
			
		

> I would never allow such a "lockdown build" in any campaign I ran. I wouldn't play any such build even if it were allowed in a campaign I played in. Such builds are just silly.



The point isn't whether you'd allow this build in a campaign or not, the point is lockdown builds don't require having a spiked chain.  This build is perhaps the most optimal fighter lockdown build, and it does so with a longspear.  If the spiked chain is as broken as you say, why did the well-known optimizer behind this build choose not to use it?

And if you don't allow the multiclassing, would you allow a Fighter 20?







			
				Fighter 20 Build said:
			
		

> 2- EWP Spiked Chain. Alternatively, Short Haft and use a glaive so you can set against a charge for double dmg. Picked the chain for the easy area threat. ALTERNATE: Take a big piercing polearm (guisarme or longspear) and wear SPiked Gauntlets. This frees up a feat while allowing you to threaten near and far, letting you take Power Attack or (wait for it!) WEAPON SUPREMACY! Note that with Adaptive, all your Weapon Focus chain could apply to your Gauntlets, too, including Supremacy. You also become hell against a charge...and hey, Lances do piercing dmg, too, don't they?


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## Elethiomel (Mar 9, 2008)

Felix said:
			
		

> _Relative to polearms_
> *Costs*: 1 feat or -4 non-proficiency penalty; sub-standard damage; sub-standard crit range and multiplier; Piercing damage.
> 
> *Benefit*: No need to take a 5-foot step; harder to Sunder.
> ...




I still disagree. Look at your analysis again when you throw Enlarge Person into the picture. An Enlarged person does not have the easy "just a 5-foot step and the enemy will be in reach" solution that you posit as generally applicable above.


Also, for others: Lockdown builds without the spiked chain are obviously very viable. However, other feats and/or class abilities being cheesy does not prevent the Spiked Chain being cheesy.


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## Zelc (Mar 10, 2008)

Elethiomel said:
			
		

> Also, for others: Lockdown builds without the spiked chain are obviously very viable. However, other feats and/or class abilities being cheesy does not prevent the Spiked Chain being cheesy.



The fact that perhaps one of the most optimized lockdown builds doesn't think the spiked chain is worth the feat should show that the spiked chain isn't as hot as you think it is.

ETA: I'd like to add we're not just talking about _viable_ here.  We're talking about _highly optimized_ builds not needing or wanting the Spiked Chain.


----------



## Felix (Mar 10, 2008)

Elethiomel said:
			
		

> I still disagree. Look at your analysis again when you throw Enlarge Person into the picture. An Enlarged person does not have the easy "just a 5-foot step and the enemy will be in reach" solution that you posit as generally applicable above.



*Benefits:* the Enlarged person has a higher Strength, a bonus to tripping, a bonus to disarming, a bonus to grappling, bigger damage dice, and his increase in reach means that opponents will be further away from him when he trips them.

*Costs:* if the assailant is Medium-sized or smaller, the Enlarged person must withdraw 10' to bring the assailant into his weapon's threatened area; lower AC; lower Dex; lower Attack bonus.

Posit: still generally acceptable. With all those bonuses, you'd better be able to keep him Prone. That or your dice hate you.



> Also, for others: Lockdown builds without the spiked chain are obviously very viable. However, other feats and/or class abilities being cheesy does not prevent the Spiked Chain being cheesy.



This is true. The existence of a Half-ogre Rogue/Warblade/Fighter/Monk/Crusader/WitchSlayer does not prevent a Maug Fighter/Warmind/ExoticWeaponMaster from being milk derivative. Nor does equipping said cheese-Maug with a weapon transfer its cheesyness to said weapon.

If the weapon is broken, it should be easier to demonstrate than your trotted out Maug. (And considering that _Glitterdust_ and _Fireball_ are still its weak points at ECL 10, it doesn't demonstrate it hardly at all.)

But perhaps it is easier to demonstrate and I've just been focusing too much on the race. You suggested:



			
				Post 77 said:
			
		

> Okay, here's how to make a NPC tripmonkey disarmer to make your party run home to mama in tears:
> - Be Large
> - Be Strong
> - Be Dextrous
> ...



Shall we try this again without the killed-by-two-_Fireballs_-Maug?

Make me run home to mama.


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## green slime (Mar 10, 2008)

Its obviously not the Spiked Chain that's broken in this thread...


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## Tetsubo (Mar 10, 2008)

Zelc said:
			
		

> The point isn't whether you'd allow this build in a campaign or not, the point is lockdown builds don't require having a spiked chain.  This build is perhaps the most optimal fighter lockdown build, and it does so with a longspear.  If the spiked chain is as broken as you say, why did the well-known optimizer behind this build choose not to use it?
> 
> And if you don't allow the multiclassing, would you allow a Fighter 20?




Look at the illustration below.

I don't need any other excuse in saying that the Spiked Chain is blatantly absurd.


----------



## green slime (Mar 10, 2008)

Tetsubo said:
			
		

> Look at the illustration below.
> 
> I don't need any other excuse in saying that the Spiked Chain is blatantly absurd.




Have you looked at any fantasy art lately? 

Read any spell descriptions lately?

Read much feat descriptions?

DnD seems to thrive on the blatantly absurd.


----------



## cignus_pfaccari (Mar 10, 2008)

Tetsubo said:
			
		

> Look at the illustration below.
> 
> I don't need any other excuse in saying that the Spiked Chain is blatantly absurd.




Heh.

I've always felt that the graphic depiction of the spiked chain was the only really good reason for not liking it.

Generally, though, when I think spiked chain (and used one on a character where it wasn't nearly as cool as people might've thought), I think kusari-gama-ish, not the pic you posted.

Brad


----------



## Zelc (Mar 10, 2008)

I thought we were talking about whether the spiked chain is cheesy, not whether the spiked chain is realistic.


----------



## Felix (Mar 10, 2008)

Zelc said:
			
		

> I thought we were talking about whether the spiked chain is cheesy, not whether the spiked chain is realistic.



Trotting out that picture is Tetsubo's reflex when people present arguments that the Spiked Chain is fine mechanically.

Tetsubo, are there any other picture from the PHB of things that are absurd? Or is the Spiked Chain the only one?


----------



## Deset Gled (Mar 10, 2008)

All of the evidence presented in this thread has basically lead me back to the same oppinion I had before it:  reach weapons can be abused, tripping can be abused, and some D+D weapons don't make practical sense.  

The spiked chain is no different, mechanically, than a guisarme used with Improved Unarmed Strike (or armor spikes, etc).  You have reach, you can trip, and you still threaten adjacent squares.  There are a number of different ways to achieve this without the spiked chain, all with minor variations in damage, crits, etc.  The spiked chain is no worse than any other trip weapon with reach.

The spiked chain is no different, conceptually, than a two-bladed sword or a mercurial greatsword.  These are weapons made to be "cool", to hell with the realism.  There may be some miniscule amount of realism that they're based off of, but in the end they're just abstract weapons used for flavor.

The real problem is that the spiked chain combines these two unrelated issues in one weapon, so you effectively have twice as many people complaining about it.


----------



## Tetsubo (Mar 10, 2008)

Zelc said:
			
		

> I thought we were talking about whether the spiked chain is cheesy, not whether the spiked chain is realistic.




To me it is cheesy simply because it is a practical absurdity.

But if you would like a mechanical absurdity, you can use a Spiked Chain underwater because it is a Piercing weapon. There you go, mechanical absurdity.


----------



## Tetsubo (Mar 10, 2008)

Felix said:
			
		

> Trotting out that picture is Tetsubo's reflex when people present arguments that the Spiked Chain is fine mechanically.
> 
> Tetsubo, are there any other picture from the PHB of things that are absurd? Or is the Spiked Chain the only one?




There are lots of poor illustrations in the PHB of weapons. The Spiked Chain is just the most egregious. It is proof that the game designers and illustrators don't own any weapon reference books and have never actually held a weapon in the hands. The Spiked Chain, as depicted in the PHB, is unusable.


----------



## Tetsubo (Mar 10, 2008)

Here are some examples of chain weapons that aren't absurd.

Why couldn't the game designers just used real world versions rather than create something silly?


----------



## Felix (Mar 10, 2008)

Tetsubo said:
			
		

> Why couldn't the game designers just used real world versions rather than create something silly?



If the artist who drew that PHB spiked chain had instead portrayed a Spiked Manrikigusari, exactly what complaints would you have about the mechanics?

Would you label it absurd because it does only Piercing damage instead of Piercing/Bludgeoning?


----------



## Tetsubo (Mar 10, 2008)

Felix said:
			
		

> If the artist who drew that PHB spiked chain had instead portrayed a Spiked Manrikigusari, exactly what complaints would you have about the mechanics?
> 
> Would you label it absurd because it does only Piercing damage instead of Piercing/Bludgeoning?




If the artist had presented it as a Piercing/Bludgeoning design AND removed all of the projections from the links themselves, yes I would find it both more mechanically balanced and less visually absurd. But it is shown as having those silly projections on the links again and again and again in official illustrations. Once is a mistake, a dozen times and it is policy.

But the item is still the "kitchen sink" weapon of the game. The designers created a combat system that had numerous elements to reflect combat. Then they created a weapon that goes around those limitations. I see the Spiked Chain as a meta-item. An item designed to skirt the rules themselves. For that reason alone it is absurd and has no place in the game.

There are lots of real world chain weapons that they could have included in the PHB. But two of them are the Spiked Chain and the Dire Flail, the later is only slightly less silly than the former.

You will note that chain weapons (while vastly cool) never seem to play much of a role in actual, real world combat. If a Spiked Chain were really as uber-l33t as the rules show it to be, every army in history would have outfitted troops with them.

The one weapon that did have the biggest role in history, the spear, never seems to get a lot of play in D&D. An example was given in this thread. But by and large I have rarely seen a lot of spear builds. Yet the spear probably decided more battles in history then any other melee weapon.


----------



## Felix (Mar 10, 2008)

Tetsubo said:
			
		

> If the artist had presented it as a Piercing/Bludgeoning design AND removed all of the projections from the links themselves, yes I would find it both more mechanically balanced and less visually absurd.



This is the first time I've ever seen anyone suggest that the Spiked Chain would become _more balanced_ if an ability were _added_ to it.



> I see the Spiked Chain as a meta-item. An item designed to skirt the rules themselves. For that reason alone it is absurd and has no place in the game.
> ...
> There are lots of real world chain weapons that they could have included in the PHB.



A Spiked Manrikigusari looks like it can hit someone 10' away, and you can hold it in the middle of the chain to hit folks 5' away.

It can wrap around weapons and limbs, so it can disarm and trip; the Spiked Manrikigusari can do this too, yes?

You can use the weight of the hammer to swing the chain instead of your own muscles, but doing so is only easy for folks who are Dexterous, neh?

Perhaps they looked at the chain weapons, saw they should be able to take advantage of the rules they'd created for doing things in combat that you should be able to do in combat, and voila!, you have the Chain, Spiked. It doesn't have to be a meta-game weapon to do all of those things. Has your opinion of the illustration colored the suspected origins of the weapon's mechanics?



> You will note that chain weapons (while vastly cool) never seem to play much of a role in actual, real world combat.



*Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain*. Most people don't spend their only feat on that. Shoot, I spent my feat on Skill Focus: Time Wasting.



> The one weapon that did have the biggest role in history, the spear, never seems to get a lot of play in D&D. An example was given in this thread. But by and large I have rarely seen a lot of spear builds. Yet the spear probably decided more battles in history then any other melee weapon.



And the crossbow is a simple weapon while the longbow is a martial weapon. Historically the crossbow could be easily wielded by peasant armies while the longbow took years of training. Do you dismiss the exact same relationship between the spear and the spiked chain?

---

Also, I'm right there with you on the Dire Flail.


----------



## Tetsubo (Mar 11, 2008)

Felix said:
			
		

> This is the first time I've ever seen anyone suggest that the Spiked Chain would become _more balanced_ if an ability were _added_ to it.
> 
> 
> A Spiked Manrikigusari looks like it can hit someone 10' away, and you can hold it in the middle of the chain to hit folks 5' away.
> ...




The illustration in the original 3.0 PHB caused me to laugh out loud. Literally. Only later did I begin to dislike it for mechanical reasons.

By making it Piercing/Bludgeoning you avoid the underwater use issue. If you were to describe it as a two-handed weapon that does not allow a 1.5 Strength bonus that would help. It should also be noted that while it could be used at both 5' and 10' ranges but not in the same round. I'd probably make it 1d6 damage. It is rather small and light. Your idea of a Spiked Manrikigusari has merit.

Both the crossbow and longbow are highly effective weapons. One just takes decades to master. The Spiked Chain *as depicted in the PHB* is useless. It does not have the lethality or usefulness of a longbow. Longbows decided who ruled kingdoms. Spiked Chains just cut cheese.

Your idea for the Spiked Manrikigusari  is good. 

For a martial weapon that does many of the Spiked Chains roles (and is far more realistic) look at the Heavy Flail. 

For an exotic chain weapon, file off the description of the Dire Flail. Describe it as a chain with heavy weights at either end. Essentially a Heavy Manriki-gusari. Replace the plain weights with spiked ones and you have a Piercing/Bludgeoning version. A "holy water sprinkler" with style...

All of these ideas (yours and mine) are better than how the Spiked Chain was presented in the PHB. I don't have an issue with exotic weapons. There are literally tons of examples of them in the real world. Which is one of the reasons I got so annoyed when the game designers came up with such a silly idea. It was like they stepped over a dollar to pick up a dime. If they had invested a $100 in weapon reference books, this could have been avoided. 

I figure I have $1000+ invested in such reference books...


----------



## Felix (Mar 11, 2008)

Hypothetical:

The PHB, instead of the current picture, presents this as the spiked chain. Your reaction?



> If you were to describe it as a two-handed weapon that does not allow a 1.5 Strength bonus that would help. It should also be noted that while it could be used at both 5' and 10' ranges but not in the same round. I'd probably make it 1d6 damage.



With all these addendums and caveats, do you still think it is mechanically worth an extoic weapon feat? Few enough players I know take the chain as a weapon as-is; lowering the damage, weaknening the range, and removing the strength bonus wouldn't help sell the thing.

While I don't see a mechanical need for it, you instead of completely removing the 1.5 Str bonus, you could remove it in the event the weapon is Weapon Finessed. Since they're not using their Strength to accack, they ought not get an extra bonus; but leave the option open for Str-based characters.

While that would make sense, I think it's a needless complication that doesn't add anything beneficial to the weapon.


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## green slime (Mar 11, 2008)

The weapon as is, isn't worth a feat. IMO, it really needs something else added to it to justify the cost.

But then again, I think none of the Exotic weapons are really worth the cost of a feat.


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## werk (Mar 11, 2008)

Tetsubo said:
			
		

> Here are some examples of chain weapons that aren't absurd.
> 
> Why couldn't the game designers just used real world versions rather than create something silly?




I thought the OP discussed this with you on the first page?


Repeating yourself could be a sign of senility.


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## Tetsubo (Mar 11, 2008)

Felix said:
			
		

> Hypothetical:
> 
> The PHB, instead of the current picture, presents this as the spiked chain. Your reaction?
> 
> ...




That picture is still absurd. Look at each link in the chain. The links are rectangular. At each corner of the rectangle is a projecting "spike". There is no way to wield such a weapon without damaging your own hands. That is a design flaw.


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## Set (Mar 11, 2008)

green slime said:
			
		

> The weapon as is, isn't worth a feat. IMO, it really needs something else added to it to justify the cost.
> 
> But then again, I think none of the Exotic weapons are really worth the cost of a feat.




True that.  That uber +1 crit mod on a Kukri is so not worth a Feat over a Dagger.

Normal (spike-less) Chains (same rules, but 1d6 B damage) are kinda neat, and I'd allow them to switch grip from double weapon to reach weapon, but not both at once.

And I'd allow Quarterstaffs to be Finesse weapons, 'cause that sounds fun, too.  



			
				werk said:
			
		

> I thought the OP discussed this with you on the first page?  Repeating yourself could be a sign of senility.




Agree or disagree with Tetsubo.  Name-calling and snark got boring a long time ago.


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## Tetsubo (Mar 11, 2008)

werk said:
			
		

> I thought the OP discussed this with you on the first page?
> 
> 
> Repeating yourself could be a sign of senility.




This thread has gone on long enough that might be a possibility.


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## werk (Mar 11, 2008)

Set said:
			
		

> Agree or disagree with Tetsubo.  Name-calling and snark got boring a long time ago.




I don't think I was...I was just trying to point out that we've been down this road before...in _this_ thread. 


http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3576479&postcount=47


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## Umbran (Mar 12, 2008)

werk said:
			
		

> Repeating yourself could be a sign of senility.





So could forgetting the basic rules of politeness of the messageboard upon which you've over three thousand posts, hm? 

I will remind you all, in case anyone else is feeling... similarly forgetful - you are to be _respectful_ of your fellow posters, and their opinions.


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## Tetsubo (Mar 12, 2008)

Hey, I'm a tolerant guy. I don't mind if someone points out that I might have repeated myself. Lots of threads, it's bound to happen.

What I'm not tolerant of is the Spiked Chain...


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## Felix (Mar 12, 2008)

Tetsubo said:
			
		

> That picture is still absurd. Look at each link in the chain. The links are rectangular. At each corner of the rectangle is a projecting "spike". There is no way to wield such a weapon without damaging your own hands. That is a design flaw.



What other weapons in the PHB do you consider absurd? Because surely the Dire Flail and the Spiked Chain cannot be the only flawed-design weapons if this is the standard you hold all fantasy weapons to.

Are any monsters flawed in design because they'd be improbable?

How about magical spells? Anything absurd there?


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## green slime (Mar 12, 2008)

Felix said:
			
		

> What other weapons in the PHB do you consider absurd? Because surely the Dire Flail and the Spiked Chain cannot be the only flawed-design weapons if this is the standard you hold all fantasy weapons to.
> 
> Are any monsters flawed in design because they'd be improbable?
> 
> How about magical spells? Anything absurd there?




Tried that tack earlier, didn't seem to have much effect, I'm afraid. DnD thrives on the improbable and the impossible. Reality doesn't have much to do with fantasy at all.

But Tetsubo is perfectly correct. It is an improbable weapon. I just don't have a problem with the weapon being unrealistic. Its not like it is seeing a lot of use in the campaigns I run anyway. And Floating balls with eyestalks that shoot rays of death and antimagic are also impossible, and unrealistic. 

Like Tetsubo, I would like to see more reasons for spears to be used.


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## Felix (Mar 12, 2008)

green slime said:
			
		

> Tried that tack earlier, didn't seem to have much effect, I'm afraid. DnD thrives on the improbable and the impossible. Reality doesn't have much to do with fantasy at all.



Tetsubo comes down pretty hard on the Spiked Chain in particular, and the artwork seems to have as much, if not more, to do with his displeasure than the mechanics. Since at the gaming table the visuals I get come from my imagination and the DM's descriptions, I don't see why the PHB picture has to be that much of a sticking point.



> But Tetsubo is perfectly correct. It is an improbable weapon.



As depicted? Oh, yeah. Totally. But he seemed mollified by the idea of calling the spiked chain, and drawing the thing like, a Spiked Manrikigusari. And the mechanics of the Spiked Chain could make sense for a Spiked Manrikigusari. So if the mechanics aren't terribly objectionable, and the real world provides a reasonable visual substitute for that silly thing in the PHB, can't the weapon be accepted?



> Like Tetsubo, I would like to see more reasons for spears to be used.



Spears were weapons of choice for a very long time because it gave poorly trained and poorly armored conscripts a cost-effective way of being a significant presence on the battlefield. But a party of PCs is exactly *not that*: relative to the great majority of the population, the PCs are very well trained and very well equipped. There may be a big difference to the treasurer of a kingdom between arming the rank and file with spears instead of ranseurs, but those economies of scale won't be realized by the PCs because they are individuals instead of massed units.

That being said, spears should have a place in the game. They're cheap and rudimentary; primitive societies are going to have spears as a weapon of choice. Peasants will have pole-arms to fight with that they'd otherwise be using for agricultural purposes. Guardsmen will have spears at castle doors. You'll see spears in D&D everywhere that their Simple Weapon status and their 5gp cost matters to whomever is paying for them to be made.


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## Tetsubo (Mar 12, 2008)

Felix said:
			
		

> What other weapons in the PHB do you consider absurd? Because surely the Dire Flail and the Spiked Chain cannot be the only flawed-design weapons if this is the standard you hold all fantasy weapons to.
> 
> Are any monsters flawed in design because they'd be improbable?
> 
> How about magical spells? Anything absurd there?




Weapons exist in the real world. Monsters and D&D style magic spells...? Not so much.

I expect weapons to behave as they would in the real world. I see that as a very low standard.

Did you look at the rapier illustration? Looks like what a five year thinks a rapier looks like.

Illustrations can make or break a gaming book for me. Weapon illustrations doubly so.

The Spiked Chain illustration shows that the person that designed the weapon and the person that drew the image don't have a firm grasp of what an actual implement of destruction looks like. I have a problem with that. Weapons are a HUGE part of a fantasy game. How you present that part should matter.


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## Felix (Mar 12, 2008)

Tetsubo said:
			
		

> The Spiked Chain illustration shows that the person that designed the weapon and the person that drew the image don't have a firm grasp of what an actual implement of destruction looks like.



Assuming the person who designed the weapon didn't have the Spiked Manrikigusari in mind.

Youi're right: the picture of the Spiked Chain in the PHB is silly. And maybe I play my games on smaller tables or with more people than you do, but we never have room to lay our books out open on the table; they're always stacked somewhere within reach. I spend a lot more time in game visualizing my character than I do checking out the PHB illustrations. It would be as if someone who didn't like the picture of Tordek proceeded to argue that the Fighter was an absurd class.

Bad picture? Check. Should the illustrator be smacked upside the head with a cluebat? Yup. Does an artist's bad depiction ultimately matter? Not if you can get over it and visualize it for yourself. And in this case, you don't need to do much visualizing. Want peircing damage? Add spikes. Spikes make everything cooler.


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## Tetsubo (Mar 13, 2008)

Felix said:
			
		

> Assuming the person who designed the weapon didn't have the Spiked Manrikigusari in mind.
> 
> Youi're right: the picture of the Spiked Chain in the PHB is silly. And maybe I play my games on smaller tables or with more people than you do, but we never have room to lay our books out open on the table; they're always stacked somewhere within reach. I spend a lot more time in game visualizing my character than I do checking out the PHB illustrations. It would be as if someone who didn't like the picture of Tordek proceeded to argue that the Fighter was an absurd class.
> 
> Bad picture? Check. Should the illustrator be smacked upside the head with a cluebat? Yup. Does an artist's bad depiction ultimately matter? Not if you can get over it and visualize it for yourself. And in this case, you don't need to do much visualizing. Want peircing damage? Add spikes. Spikes make everything cooler.




Make it Piercing/Bludgeoning and it sort of makes sense. I still think it is a sub par weapon choice. I'd rather take the Heavy Flail and save a feat.


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## Felix (Mar 13, 2008)

Tetsubo said:
			
		

> Make it Piercing/Bludgeoning and it sort of makes sense. I still think it is a sub par weapon choice. I'd rather take the Heavy Flail and save a feat.



Oh certainly it's a sub-par weapon choice, but some folks have been calling it broken because it's too powerful. It's an interesting weapon to throw at your PCs every now and again, and for Fighters it gives them a venue for their myriad feats. It's nice for flavor and when you want to be different, and yeah, there are other weapons that do one or two of the things a chain does better. If I were going damage-dealing, I'd go Greatsword; if it were a lockdown build, I'd go polearm; if it were disarming, I'd go flail. 

Still, Asian flying weapons have some kind of je ne sais quoi. Also, Michelle Yeoh trips, disarms and hits guys 10' away. Ok, ok. So it's a rope dart. Still cool.


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## green slime (Mar 13, 2008)

So basically we are all agreed:

1) Spiked Chain ain't that good, really. Honestly. Sure its fun, but there are other, cheaper roads to achieve the same effect or similar.
2) The picture in the PHB is unrealistic.


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## eamon (Mar 14, 2008)

green slime said:
			
		

> So basically we are all agreed:
> 
> 1) Spiked Chain ain't that good, really. Honestly. Sure its fun, but there are other, cheaper roads to achieve the same effect or similar.
> 2) The picture in the PHB is unrealistic.




Well, I wouldn't go so far as to say it's not good, because sometimes it is, but that it's not a weapon without downsides, and not game-breaking.


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