# The Best Class/Build for My Party's Leader?



## Retreater (Dec 17, 2010)

After getting wiped out with a TPK last session, my group is reconfiguring itself with players taking on different roles. Everyone found his or her niche, and I was left with the role of Leader (one that I was excited to play anyway). 

The other players have chosen their class: Paladin/Cavalier (Essentials), Sorcerer, and Wizard (mostly PHB1 with some Essentials powers peppered in). 

I'm leaning toward a Valorous Bard, wearing chainmail and wielding a longsword and shield. My thought is that we will need a Leader with some melee combat ability to stand in and protect the squishy Sorcerer and Wizard. 

The Bard doesn't seem to suffer from the MAD of the PHB1 Cleric or Warlord and might have slightly better healing capacity than the Essentials Warpriest. (Assuming a 20 Cha, he can restore +5 extra HP with his healing instead of +1d6 - so it averages out more; plus his Song of Rest or whatever it's called adds +5 to all healing surges during a short rest - so it can help save surges.)

Are there others that might be a better fit for the party's configuration? (Assuming an adventure that's a mix of wilderness and dungeon exploration? - actually a conversion of the 3.5e Shattered Gates of Slaughtergard.)

Thanks,
Retreater


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## Aulirophile (Dec 17, 2010)

If you're not in a rush remember you can use a Healing Spell, wait five minutes, use a... etc., Song of Rest barely helps if you do this (and this is completely intended, in fact there is even a feat that maximizes all healing done this way). So that feature is rarely worthwhile.

Secondly a Bard will never outheal any reasonable Cleric build, and Warpriests are basically just as strong. Bards score something like fifth overall for healing when it comes to being a Leader, Clerics are first (Inspiring Warlords are second). 

You do unfortunately sort of need another melee character (unless that is a melee/close Dragon Magic Sorc) or I'd reccomend Killswitch. 

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Hell, I'll recommend Killswitch anyway. You have two Arcane party members.

If not that, your groups perception probably stinks. Shaman or Cleric. Shaman is kind of nice in that it provides both a melee blocker with the spirit and you can stay at range, but tactically they are one of the most difficult leaders to play and build well.


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## FreeXenon (Dec 17, 2010)

Something melee based would be good. 

You have a Wizard and a Sorcerer which are really squishy, and with 4E's abundance of critters on the field I always recommend 2 meat shields - a primary defender and then something else meaty.


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## AbdulAlhazred (Dec 17, 2010)

Yeah, the bard can handle doing some melee. A STR cleric (or Warpriest if you prefer) will give you the best healing of any melee character though, and they are QUITE tough. In that case go with STR/WIS and leave CHA as your 3rd stat, you can use powers like Healing Strike on top of the basic Healing Word, plus even CLW if you need more healing beyond that.

A good melee Warlord is the third option. They can put out a pretty reasonable amount of healing and still crank out good damage, plus you can do things like Commander's Strike and have the Pally lay into someone (assuming a STR paladin) or go with other powers if good MBAs aren't there. Nobody in our group has run a Warlord yet, so I haven't really memorized the best options in detail. 

The Shaman is definitely another interesting option. A bear shaman can end up dropping a pretty nice amount of surgeless healing and the bear is an excellent blocker that can do some modestly good defending. The ability to drop the bear at the most opportune spot on the map whenever you want is pretty nice.


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## Neonchameleon (Dec 17, 2010)

To join in the chorus: You need to be on the battle line.  That's more important than exactly how much you heal.  (Warpriests are not as good healers as wisdom clerics).  But my instincts are heading in another direction entirely: Essentials Druid (or spring, I think).  Respectable healing, covering a wide area including your pet (and giving CA to the ranged guys if you go for spring), decent synergy.

Alternatively for the fun option run a Battlefront Leader Bravura Warlord and use Brash Assault.  Scale + Large Shield for defence.  Brash Assault people in the defender's aura and give the free basic attack to the sorceror...  This really is a risky option tho.

I don't honestly think the shaman is going to cut it - post MM3 it's too easy to destroy the spirit companion then run through the hole.


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## Fkewl (Dec 17, 2010)

Our team is 2 strikers (thief and slayer), 1 defender (fighter with 27ac) and me as leader. 

Here's my Leader that i'm playing right now, 
and i can say at level 6  :

-> he kicks ass (one game i had the same DPS has the 2 strikers) with a +13/+14 attack for 2d4+9 high-crit falchion

-> has good defenses (imho) AC: 22 Fort: 20 Reflex: 16 Will: 20 and nice HP at 55 

-> heals just fine and has a lot of TEMP hp to give 
At-will for 7 temp 
2 empowered at-wills for more heals (or 1 if under level 6) 
an encounter for another 7 temp (when bloodied) for all allies
the normal 2 encounter heals from the ardent
and i even give more damage or temps with the Warlord multi-class when my allies Action Point

-> as options to help out your teammates (push, temp and debuff atwills, then later on making foes attack each other is so fun)
My dm hates me when i impose a -5 to all defenses to foes in a close burst 1 !

-> as roleplay goodies from the backgrounds
(hellfire heir, crimson curse and from thay (we play in FR) ) 

And if your team had a Knight, he would gain another +4 dmg to his aura attack since it's an opportunity attack ! (mantle of elation)


At level 6 : 

Morthos Kevrani, level 6
Revenant, Ardent
Ardent Mantle: Mantle of Elation
Choose your Race in Life: Tiefling
Background: Crimson Curse, Hellfire Heir, Thay (Learn Supernal)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 10, Con 18, Dex 12, Int 8, Wis 13, Cha 18.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 10, Con 15, Dex 10, Int 8, Wis 13, Cha 17.


AC: 22 Fort: 20 Reflex: 16 Will: 20
HP: 55 Surges: 11 Surge Value: 13

TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +7, Athletics +7, Bluff +12, Intimidate +14, Heal +9

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +3, Diplomacy +7, Dungeoneering +4, Endurance +8, History +2, Insight +4, Nature +4, Perception +4, Religion +2, Stealth +3, Streetwise +7, Thievery +3

FEATS
Level 1: Turathi Weapon Training
Level 2: Weapon Expertise (Heavy Blade)
Level 4: Resourceful Leader
Level 6: Hellfire Blood

POWERS
Ardent at-will 1: Demoralizing Strike
Ardent at-will 1: Energizing Strike
Ardent daily 1: Implanted Suggestion
Ardent utility 2: Healing Bond
Ardent at-will 3: Unnerving Shove
Ardent daily 5: Specter of Doubt
Ardent utility 6: Escalating Fury

ITEMS
Manifester Falchion +2, Summoned Finemail +2, Scar of the Dragon's Altar (heroic tier), Distance Sling +1, False Blood Amulet +2



At level 7  -> change  unnerving shove for Unhinging Strike
At level 8 -> getting feat "Martyr's Surge" for an extra +d6 on that healing (when bloodied)  
- might wanna take that feat before lvl 8 if healing is your primary concern. 

Anyway, have fun ! i know i do when i play Morthos !


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## MatthewJHanson (Dec 17, 2010)

I don't know if the "Best/Optimized" but I have a Dragonborn Valorous bard and it is a ton of fun to play. One of my favorite tactics is to use cutting words to draw another creature into a close blast 3, then drop my dragon breath and use an action point to use shout of triumph and hit the same blast 3 again.

The bard's infinite multiclassing can let you pick up a few more defending powers (though also requires you to spread the stats around). I went with Combat Awareness plus Melee Training.


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## Rune (Dec 17, 2010)

Aulirophile said:


> Secondly a Bard will never outheal any reasonable Cleric build, and Warpriests are basically just as strong. Bards score something like fifth overall for healing when it comes to being a Leader, Clerics are first (Inspiring Warlords are second).




Have to disagree with you.  My Bard multi-classed Cleric/Ardent/Artificer/Runepriest/Warlord/Paladin definitely heals more and better (at range & as minor actions--multiples of which can be used in a single turn!) than the the party cleric.  Hands down.


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## Aulirophile (Dec 17, 2010)

Rune said:


> Have to disagree with you.  My Bard multi-classed Cleric/Ardent/Artificer/Runepriest/Warlord/Paladin definitely heals more and better (at range & as minor actions--multiples of which can be used in a single turn!) than the the party cleric.  Hands down.



Uh-huh. I can build a Cleric which can allow a five person party to spend 10+ surges per combat. If you used every single MC heal as a Bard you'd _barely _be able to match that, for one encounter/day, while paying the steep price of taking some very lackluster feats (and the skill training therefrom is useless, since you can just pick up Bard of All Trades). It isn't some kind of idle speculation on my end, Bards can prevent roughly 228 damage on average either through healing or things like Chord of Resilence (and at that assumes the Summer Rhymer PP, which is hardly optimal in a general sense but does produce the most healing). Clerics double that, even if they aren't Pacifists. And who cares if they can't Healing Word twice in the same turn? They can allow all allies who need it to spend a surge in a close burst 5, more then once if they really think it'll be needed. Unless you have five minor actions, you're just not going to pull that off as a Bard, sorry. 

I agree it is possible to build a Cleric that heals worse then a Bard, but that is a poorly built Cleric. Nothing to do with the Bard. 

You're welcome to do the math yourself. The only Bard build even remotely comparable to a Cleric is a Tiefling with a Flaming Weapon/Weapon of Summer that abuses Stirring Song of Baator... and it still loses to a Healic.

I say this having played both a Valorous and a Cunning Bard to Epic, and a Pacifist Cleric to Epic. Bards do some things great, but no one competes with Clerics on encounter to encounter healing.


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## Retreater (Dec 17, 2010)

So am I reading correctly that the consensus is a cleric for healing and melee combat abilities? 

If I'm going to go cleric, how do I best optimize that class? I know that the PHB1 cleric is woefully underpowered compared to other classes from later sources (primarily due to MAD issues). 

Should I forget making a PHB1 cleric and go straight for one of the Essentials builds? 

I'm kinda nervous about it. I'm new to 4E and I feel at least partially responsible for the demise of the first party (my defender didn't do his job and everyone died). I'm also new to the group and don't want them to think that I'm dead weight in the party.

Retreater


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## FreeXenon (Dec 17, 2010)

I don't know you or your players, but don't be so hard on yourself. You are just starting to get a feel for the game and 4E can be quite tactical when it comes to combat. Defenders and Controllers can have a really large and important affect on the flow of battle, and knowing where and when to place yourself and use your abilities can be tricky.



Retreater said:


> I'm kinda nervous about it. I'm new to 4E and I feel at least partially responsible for the demise of the first party (my defender didn't do his job and everyone died). I'm also new to the group and don't want them to think that I'm dead weight in the party.


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## renau1g (Dec 17, 2010)

Runepriest...do it...you know you want to....


edit: I just realized you are new to 4e. No, do not seriously take Runepriest. A Warpriest is a good suggestion, or an Armored Warlord. Gain access to scale armor and heavy shields.

Armored Warlord

Heroic Tier
Prerequisite: Warlord, Battlefront Leader class feature, proficiency with chainmail
Benefit: You gain proficiency with scale armor, and you increase your number of healing surges by one.


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## Aulirophile (Dec 17, 2010)

The issue, as I see it, is you want something 1.) Relatively uncomplicated so you can focus more on getting used to 4e and 2.) You don't want a TPK repeat. A Pacifist Cleric, properly built, is basically the anti-death of a party. Your party simply can't die if you're conscious. In addition to that you really need a second front liner because your party is mostly squishy, but being a front liner means you need solid defenses. The good armored options are Valor Bard (decent defenses, tons of surges to make up for the only decent part), Melee Cleric (or Warpriest), and Warlord. Warlord would be my first choice for a melee leader, but...

So here:

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Warpriest you will absolutely not regret.

Or this Inspiring Warlord I whipped up. Enjoy. 

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
level 11
Dragonborn, Warlord, Battlelord of Kord
Build: Inspiring Warlord
Warlord: Battlefront Leader
Commanding Presence: Inspiring Presence
Dragonborn Racial Power: Dragonfear

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 21, Con 12, Dex 14, Int 11, Wis 9, Cha 21.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 11, Dex 13, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 16.


AC: 29 Fort: 26 Reflex: 24 Will: 26
HP: 74 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 19

TRAINED SKILLS
Intimidate +17, Heal +9, Athletics +13, Endurance +9

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +5, Arcana +5, Bluff +10, Diplomacy +10, Dungeoneering +4, History +7, Insight +4, Nature +4, Perception +4, Religion +5, Stealth +5, Streetwise +10, Thievery +5

FEATS
Level 1: Armored Warlord
Level 2: Improved Inspiring Word
Level 4: Heavy Blade Expertise
Level 6: Weapon Focus (Heavy Blade)
Level 8: Improved Defenses
Level 10: Weapon Proficiency (Bastard sword)
Level 11: Fight On

POWERS
Warlord at-will 1: Intuitive Strike
Warlord at-will 1: Rousing Assault
Warlord encounter 1: Vengeance is Mine
Warlord daily 1: Lamb to the Slaughter
Warlord utility 2: Inspired Belligerence
Warlord encounter 3: Warlord's Strike
Warlord daily 5: Stand the Fallen
Warlord utility 6: Rousing Words
Warlord encounter 7: Fierce Reply
Warlord daily 9: Warlord's Recovery
Warlord utility 10: Reactive Surge

ITEMS
Drakescale Armor, Heavy Shield, Magic Wyvernscale Armor +3, Magic Bastard sword +3, Iron Armbands of Power (heroic tier), Amulet of Protection +3
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======


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## Chzbro (Dec 17, 2010)

Personally, I would suggest the Inspiring Warlord or Valorous Bard.

While it's true that a cleric might flat-out out heal a bard or warlord, the cleric pays for that with a lot less versatility (imo). I have played both ranged and melee clerics, and while they can be a lot of fun, eventually I kind of get bored with them. It's basically heal and hit stuff or heal and shoot stuff. While there is absolutely nothing wrong with this, in a party of 4 (especially one like you've described) the more versatility you have the more you'll like it.

Inspiring warlords are no slouches when it comes to healing, and with a reach weapon can really mix up attack options. Valorous bards can kick out loads of temp hps, and can be invaluable in small parties with at-wills like Misdirected Mark (helping you to make your tank even more effective).

It's partially personal preference, but with the warlord or bard you give yourself more options when it comes to "saving the day." The battle cleric can do a respectable job as a 2nd meatshield, but the other options are (again imo) much better at complimenting the main tank and boosting the effectiveness of the party as a whole.

One of my favorite things about 4E is that questions like "what is the best healer?" are much less useful than "what are the best ways to synergize this leader to this party?"

Another favorite thing is: No matter which you choose, you'll have fun with it. But remember, you're the leader. Worry less about how to maximize your character and more about how to maximize your allies' abilities with your character and you'll have more fun at the table (and so will they).


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## Prestidigitalis (Dec 18, 2010)

I'm intrigued by the idea of a standard-issue Half Elf Valorous Bard taking the Warlord power _Guide the Strike_ for the Dilettante power.  That could be a quick route to high damage if you have an optimized ranged striker in the party.  It's a ranged power, so you have to worry about positioning to use it well, but it adds a lot of flexibility.


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## Destil (Dec 18, 2010)

I'd say the main consensus, is that you want a melee type to help fill out the front line.

Valorous Bard should be fine. Melee Cleric, Warlord, Runepriest or Melee Artificer would also work. Each has strengths and weaknesses. Is the sorcerer squishy? What's the party's Con scores like? Artificer has the option to move surges around really well, if your sorcerer is going to be in melee to use lots of close bursts and blasts that can be a big bonus (assuming they don't invest in better defenses).


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## renau1g (Dec 18, 2010)

For almost any party I recommend Comrades Succor. It's great for my 13 surge paladin to spread out the wealth to the 6 surge wizard. Saved us from needing to stop at least 1 time. All for 25 gold per casting.


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## Dice4Hire (Dec 18, 2010)

renau1g said:


> For almost any party I recommend Comrades Succor. It's great for my 13 surge paladin to spread out the wealth to the 6 surge wizard. Saved us from needing to stop at least 1 time. All for 25 gold per casting.




Where is that?


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## renau1g (Dec 18, 2010)

Dragon 380. Sorry, it's only 10 gold, not 25. It does cost one person involved 1 surge also.


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## Aulirophile (Dec 18, 2010)

Nevermind.  XD



renau1g said:


> For almost any party I recommend Comrades Succor. It's great for my 13 surge paladin to spread out the wealth to the 6 surge wizard. Saved us from needing to stop at least 1 time. All for 25 gold per casting.



10g actually, but yeah, amazing.

*Comrades' Succor*

_Ritual participants share their vitality and luck with one another._
*Component Cost*: 10 gp
*Market Price*: 150 gp
*Key Skill*: Heal (no check)*Level*: 1
*Category*: Restoration
*Time*: 5 minutes
*Duration*: Instantaneous
While  performing this ritual, you and up to 5 participants in the ritual can  choose to lose any number of healing surges and select another  participant to gain an equal number of healing surges. No participant  can have more healing surges than his or her daily maximum.  Additionally, you or one participant must lose 1 healing surge when  performing this ritual.

Published in Dragon Magazine 380, page(s) 89.


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## Aulirophile (Dec 18, 2010)

Prestidigitalis said:


> I'm intrigued by the idea of a standard-issue Half Elf Valorous Bard taking the Warlord power _Guide the Strike_ for the Dilettante power.  That could be a quick route to high damage if you have an optimized ranged striker in the party.  It's a ranged power, so you have to worry about positioning to use it well, but it adds a lot of flexibility.



Since you're going to be in melee a Ranged Dilettante is not the safest idea. Actually Half-Elf ValBard is really nice because you can take the Warlock At-Will that counts as an MBA. Through heroic this means one/encounter you can actually make an opportunity attack/charge/etc., that isn't a total failure. If your DM ever figures out your OA is 4+ points behind your regular attacks to hit and -4 on the damage (and the gap is growing) you won't be much of an impediment. Add in the fact that the Warlock MBA slides 1 and you have a winner.


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## AbdulAlhazred (Dec 18, 2010)

Retreater said:


> So am I reading correctly that the consensus is a cleric for healing and melee combat abilities?
> 
> If I'm going to go cleric, how do I best optimize that class? I know that the PHB1 cleric is woefully underpowered compared to other classes from later sources (primarily due to MAD issues).
> 
> ...




First advice is play what you want to play. ANY of the common suggestions here will be fun and will perform well in the intended role. 

Specifically though the STR cleric is actually not at all underpowered. Pick a race with a STR/WIS racial bonus and you're in very good shape. Even if you go with a STR/CHA bonus you're getting excellent synergy. Dragonborn and Dwarf will both work really well, as will many others.

You have one of the very best at-will leader powers in the game with Righteous Brand. Pick up a Crusader's Weapon and a Brooch of Healing, or switch to a big nasty blade, you can pretty much take most feats that a fighter with a similar weapon load would, plus you have access to plenty of fine powers. Many of them don't really rely a huge amount on Wisdom or Cha to function. For instance Spiritual Weapon works great for a melee STR cleric. Pick a relevant domain and you can gain some nice extras. 

Not really sure where the idea that STR cleric was 'MAD' really comes from, nor the idea that they were super gimped in PHB1. They weren't the most heavily supported class, but they have a LOT of weapon user support to fall back on and enough powers to do really well (just not a vast amount of choice). DP certainly fixes that if it is a concern. Basically you have a melee combatant only very slightly behind the fighters and rangers AND a very very fine healing build with some excellent combat buffs.

STR clerics aren't the sexiest of classes, they are VERY much like the old AD&D cleric, but they are a very solid build. Of course the Warpriest gets to double on Wisdom, but has VERY few power choices. It is a real tossup between them and the flavor is really pretty much the same. If you like tinkering go with the STR version, if you don't, then the WP is probably the best.


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## Aulirophile (Dec 18, 2010)

AbdulAlhazred said:


> First advice is play what you want to play. ANY of the common suggestions here will be fun and will perform well in the intended role.
> 
> Specifically though the STR cleric is actually not at all underpowered. Pick a race with a STR/WIS racial bonus and you're in very good shape. Even if you go with a STR/CHA bonus you're getting excellent synergy. Dragonborn and Dwarf will both work really well, as will many others.
> 
> ...



The errata'd Righteous Brand actually can't really be defined as one of the best Leader powers in the game anymore, sadly, particularly as it is worse then Wis-Cleric At-Wills.


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## Retreater (Dec 18, 2010)

> Not really sure where the idea that STR cleric was 'MAD' really comes from, nor the idea that they were super gimped in PHB1.




The problem is that all of the "good" attacks are based off Wisdom or Charisma. But then the damage is +Strength bonus. Or I have a Strength-based attack that grants temporary HP based on my Charisma bonus (+1) which is almost useless compared to the +5 I could get from a bard.

For a PHB1 cleric to be as good as any PHB3 class, you have to have high scores in Str, Wis, and Cha. On top of that, being forced to have high Wis and Cha is sort of like wasting your ability scores anyway, because they are reduntant bonuses on Will Defense. 

Unless I'm just not understanding character creation, which is a possibility.

Spreading around the ability score bonuses means that your PHB1 cleric will probably have a +3 in his highest ability score. An Essentials cleric will probably have a +4 or +5 in his highest ability score. A big difference at the current level (3rd). 

The problem with the Essentials cleric is that they are ... a little on the boring side ... and they're not on the working CB.

Retreater


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## Destil (Dec 18, 2010)

A PHB Strength cleric should be flat out Str/Cha. The strength powers should *mostly* use Cha as their 'kicker' stat for extra effects. That said there's a cleric class feature (healer's lore) that does focus on Wis. In my opinion you're best off just dumping Wis, anyway, and taking some Con/Int or Dex. Powers that use Wis should genearlly be self contained (i.e. I don't *think* there should be a power that cares about both Wis and Str, and it if it it's a mistake).

You're not as bad off in NADs as the Wis cleric, since you actually get plenty from just splitting your stats. Wis clerics also use Cha (and healer's lore should most likely have done so as well, or there should be an alternate feature for Strength clerics).

Strength cleric is one of the most under-supported builds, though. As much as people complain about runepriests I bet most actually have just as many if not more options than Str clerics. It's a workable build, but undersupported. Still comes with a fantastic at will, at least.


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## AbdulAlhazred (Dec 18, 2010)

Aulirophile said:


> The errata'd Righteous Brand actually can't really be defined as one of the best Leader powers in the game anymore, sadly, particularly as it is worse then Wis-Cleric At-Wills.




Uh, granting a +4 power bonus to attack rolls to an ally is worse than what? lol. Sorry, this is just not true. RB is no longer FLAT OUT BROKEN, but it is still fantastically effective right up to the top of epic tier. Very few leader at-wills are competitive with it in the buffing department.



Retreater said:


> The problem is that all of the "good" attacks are based off Wisdom or Charisma. But then the damage is +Strength bonus. Or I have a Strength-based attack that grants temporary HP based on my Charisma bonus (+1) which is almost useless compared to the +5 I could get from a bard.




Except this again simply isn't true. I don't know where you get that from. IF you have a high CHA then there are absolutely some wonderful powers to leverage that with, and IF you have a high WIS there are also wonderful powers to leverage THAT with. Having DMed a group with a well-made STR cleric in it all through heroic and into paragon I've witnessed it in action. A STR/WIS strength cleric build kicks butt and has no problem with dumping CHA to a tertiary. In fact it isn't even really worth bothering with CHA in this case, just drop the points into CON, you'll be happy for the hit points.



> For a PHB1 cleric to be as good as any PHB3 class, you have to have high scores in Str, Wis, and Cha. On top of that, being forced to have high Wis and Cha is sort of like wasting your ability scores anyway, because they are reduntant bonuses on Will Defense.




See above. Play a STR/WIS cleric and you'll change your mind on this. CHA is not a vital attribute for this build at all.



> Unless I'm just not understanding character creation, which is a possibility.




No, I don't think you're failing to understand character creation, I think you are just highly overestimating the requirement for a high CHA with this build.



> Spreading around the ability score bonuses means that your PHB1 cleric will probably have a +3 in his highest ability score. An Essentials cleric will probably have a +4 or +5 in his highest ability score. A big difference at the current level (3rd).
> 
> The problem with the Essentials cleric is that they are ... a little on the boring side ... and they're not on the working CB.
> 
> Retreater




Again, there's no need to spread anything around. You simply have to take the right powers. With a good WIS you can take certain WIS based powers, but you just mainly concentrate on the STR based powers with WIS riders.

Just consider for instance a level 1 STR cleric with an 18 STR/16 WIS, you have Righteous Brand and Lance of Faith as excellent at-will choices. LoF will be 1 less to-hit vs RB, but it targets reflex, so it is actually the more accurate of the 2 powers on average, where's the lack of support for choices there? Healing Strike is a great level 1 encounter power, but all 4 of those in PHB1 are perfectly usable (wow with Cause Fear you might make the enemy move away only speed+1, but it is a crappy power anyway and the difference is minor). Level 1 daily powers? The choices again are basically any of them you want to use in PHB1, CHA isn't even a rider for any of them. 

I don't disagree that there are some VERY good powers that rely on CHA to be really effective, but they aren't the only good choices. At high heroic tier PHB1 gets a bit more sparse, but you still have choices and DP certainly provides good additional options. A WIS/CHA cleric surely has more higher level power choices, but not by as much as people seem to think, nor are those choices better. 

No, STR cleric is IMHO the strongest cleric build there is when you actually look close. It MAY be slightly eclipsed now by Warpriest, but it absolutely competes with and IMHO blows the doors off the laser cleric.


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## Prestidigitalis (Dec 18, 2010)

Aulirophile said:


> Since you're going to be in melee a Ranged Dilettante is not the safest idea.




First, there will be times that isn't a problem: at the start of the encounter before you have closed to melee; after you have killed an enemy but before you have moved on to the next one; when the only adjacent enemies can't take OAs due to being dazed; etc.  At these times, having the option to hand your attack off to someone else who can better use it adds a lot of flexibility.  It's also good for those times when you are up against a flying creature, etc.

However, if you want a "safer" approach, you can always take Commander's Strike.  A Valorous Bard won't get much of a damage bonus, but every little bit helps.  (For a Cunning Bard -- wow) If you are working with an MBA-based Essentials class like the Knight, Slayer or Thief, you might end up granting them the attack far more often than you use your own at-wills.



Aulirophile said:


> Actually Half-Elf ValBard is really nice because you can take the Warlock At-Will that counts as an MBA. Through heroic this means one/encounter you can actually make an opportunity attack/charge/etc., that isn't a total failure. If your DM ever figures out your OA is 4+ points behind your regular attacks to hit and -4 on the damage (and the gap is growing) you won't be much of an impediment. Add in the fact that the Warlock MBA slides 1 and you have a winner.




Sure, that works, though you could also just take Melee Training.  I'd say that the Dilettante power is worth a lot more than a single feat, at least once you have hit paragon tier.


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## Aulirophile (Dec 18, 2010)

AbdulAlhazred said:


> Uh, granting a +4 power bonus to attack rolls to an ally is worse than what? lol. Sorry, this is just not true. RB is no longer FLAT OUT BROKEN, but it is still fantastically effective right up to the top of epic tier. Very few leader at-wills are competitive with it in the buffing department.



+3 (not 4) to one melee ally vs +2 to _everyone in your party. _Which of these two is better? How about a +1 regardless of if you hit or miss to one ally or yourself, and you don't need to worry about declaring it in advance? How about a +1 bonus, flat out, that you can increase to +3 under certain circumstances that applies to everyone? 

Mathematically, all of those are better. They are all Cleric At-Wills. I'm not even comparing RB to other Leader At-Wills here, just the things it is legitimately competing against. And in that competition it loses.


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## AbdulAlhazred (Dec 18, 2010)

Aulirophile said:


> +3 (not 4) to one melee ally vs +2 to _everyone in your party. _Which of these two is better? How about a +1 regardless of if you hit or miss to one ally or yourself, and you don't need to worry about declaring it in advance? How about a +1 bonus, flat out, that you can increase to +3 under certain circumstances that applies to everyone?
> 
> Mathematically, all of those are better. They are all Cleric At-Wills. I'm not even comparing RB to other Leader At-Wills here, just the things it is legitimately competing against. And in that competition it loses.




When you need someone to hit the target? The highest bonus is the best. RB also does damage, unlike Astral Seal. I don't know what the last power you're referring to is, but I'd note that +3 is a good bit more than +1 and WILL often be better. So I don't agree that "all of those are better". I don't agree that ANY of them are flat out better. They may be better in some situations, but that isn't exactly news. I'd also point out that you can quite happily compare RB to ALL other leader at-will powers, it STILL comes out VERY well. I'll match my STR cleric against any other leader build in a general sense and it will stand up. I'm not claiming it is incontrovertibly the best leader in the game, that's a pretty hard thing to judge and is highly subjective. What I am saying is it is in no way an inferior option. I'm by far not alone in holding that opinion. It is a build that is often overlooked. When you start listing out possibilities for melee leader classes however it should definitely be right up there on the list. Anyone that has seen it competently played will see that.


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## Aulirophile (Dec 18, 2010)

AbdulAlhazred said:


> When you need someone to hit the target? The highest bonus is the best. RB also does damage, unlike Astral Seal. I don't know what the last power you're referring to is, but I'd note that +3 is a good bit more than +1 and WILL often be better. So I don't agree that "all of those are better". I don't agree that ANY of them are flat out better. They may be better in some situations, but that isn't exactly news. I'd also point out that you can quite happily compare RB to ALL other leader at-will powers, it STILL comes out VERY well. I'll match my STR cleric against any other leader build in a general sense and it will stand up. I'm not claiming it is incontrovertibly the best leader in the game, that's a pretty hard thing to judge and is highly subjective. What I am saying is it is in no way an inferior option. I'm by far not alone in holding that opinion. It is a build that is often overlooked. When you start listing out possibilities for melee leader classes however it should definitely be right up there on the list. Anyone that has seen it competently played will see that.



Actually Astral Seal does more damage. The increased hit chance combined with the minus to defenses serves as a greater average increase to party DPR. That is with At-Wills, doesn't factor in the healing or the fact that daily/encounter powers might be used. So Astral Seal 1, RB 0. And, mathematically, each additional point of +hit is worth less in terms of total percentage then the previous one, so no, a big bonus to one person is not in any way better then a smaller bonus to everyone. 

+1 to _everyone _(including yourself) is better then +3 to one person. Particularly as that must person must be melee and must be able to engage the target on his next turn and it doesn't increase your chance to hit the target at all, just an allies. That isn't even an option with RB. So RB still loses.

I'm not saying Str Clerics are horrible, necessarily, but their support by comparison is extremely lackluster and RB is _not _a good At-Will in comparison to other Cleric At-Wills, it is mathematically inferior to three other options. 

And it really doesn't compare to other leader At-Wills. Magic Weapon? Not even close. Intuitive Strike I concede is comparable, you lose stat mod damage, it is +2 instead of +3, and the attacker needs CA, but you don't need to pre-pick the ally who benefits and it is more accurate since it is a weapon attack vs a NAD. Guiding Strike is only situationally better, since the defense you debuff must be one that two party members will attack (or one+yourself, actually gaining a benefit to yourself is fun), though if you can satisfy that it is better. So RB might, _might, _be better then Shaman, Ardent, or Runepriest At-Wills (and I'm only conceding this because I know very little about those classes). Three of the least supported Leader classes. Yeah, that is a "strong" option. 

You can like RB all you want, but "many people hold this opinion" is not a compelling argument compared to, you know, math. If you personally prefer RB (for whatever reason) that is one thing. There are many powers that people think of as fun. But to _generally reccomend _such powers is flawed when superior powers exist.


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## AbdulAlhazred (Dec 18, 2010)

Astral Seal CAN produce more damage in certain cases. RB however has the advantage in any kind of pivotal situation. It doesn't actually generate more damage, you haven't considered all aspects of the math. You can go take a look at the workup that Keterys did on this WAY back when. At that time, pre-debuff, AS was marginally better all around. This is no longer the case. You have to factor in things like excess damage, wasted conditions, and action economy considerations. On the whole RB actually outperforms AS.

Anyway, we can continue to argue for 100 more pages about this. My point was pretty clear, the OP asked about melee leaders. I pointed to the STR cleric. Another poster came back with the usual rote misfactual "STR clerics are crap" and I replied that in fact it is in no way shape or form an inferior choice. I stand by that statement. Again, I'm not really trying to compare the whole class build to all other leaders and state that it 'the best'. It is QUITE a bit better than you're making it out to be though. Remember, as a melee oriented character you have access to ALL of the vast array of benefits available to weapon users and some good solid weapon keyword powers to use them with. The same can be said for PPs and EDs, etc.


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## Aulirophile (Dec 19, 2010)

AbdulAlhazred said:


> Astral Seal CAN produce more damage in certain cases. RB however has the advantage in any kind of pivotal situation. It doesn't actually generate more damage, you haven't considered all aspects of the math. You can go take a look at the workup that Keterys did on this WAY back when. At that time, pre-debuff, AS was marginally better all around. This is no longer the case. You have to factor in things like excess damage, wasted conditions, and action economy considerations. On the whole RB actually outperforms AS.
> 
> Anyway, we can continue to argue for 100 more pages about this. My point was pretty clear, the OP asked about melee leaders. I pointed to the STR cleric. Another poster came back with the usual rote misfactual "STR clerics are crap" and I replied that in fact it is in no way shape or form an inferior choice. I stand by that statement. Again, I'm not really trying to compare the whole class build to all other leaders and state that it 'the best'. It is QUITE a bit better than you're making it out to be though. Remember, as a melee oriented character you have access to ALL of the vast array of benefits available to weapon users and some good solid weapon keyword powers to use them with. The same can be said for PPs and EDs, etc.



Warlords have all of that and are Martial. Martial power source has the best melee weapon support. Str Clerics aren't bad, but they are easily the weakest Cleric build and require significant feat investment and stat spread to defensively match Warlord or Valbard. And Clerics, by default, have two PPs with no pre-reqs other then "Cleric" that are Str-based. We're not talking about a "ton of options", sorry. 

How does free healing vs a very minor amount of damage win in a "pivotal" situation? And AS wins on wasted damage, it does none. RB can kill the target _completely _wasting the buff. Astral Seal can't. Astral Seal wins on action economy: it applies to everyone who attacks, in melee it will sometimes be the case that your only other melee ally cannot attack your target without provoking OAs and etc, meaning RB's bonus is wasted. And if you really need the your ally to have that bonus, _it is more accurate. _Providing +2 (again, to everyone) instead of a +3 but providing it 10% more often is automatically better in "pivotal" situations. I have considered all aspects of the math, extensively. You clearly haven't.


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## Nifft (Dec 19, 2010)

Since you have two non-melee attackers in your party, I think you'll get better mileage out of effects that don't rely on melee attacks.

Righteous Brand can be awesome in the right party, but in this party it only works if the Fighter is in the right position. It basically means your Cleric and the Fighter both are focused on one foe at a time, while the Sorcerer and Wizard are left to fend for themselves.

Consider this mid-range melee-friendly build:

*Dwarf Cleric*, all attacks use Wisdom.
I'd take Healer's Mercy over Turn Undead unless you think undead will figure heavily in the campaign.

At-Wills:
- Sonnlinor's Hammer (_Wisdom-based melee basic attack_)
- Astral Seal (_mid-range focused fire_)

Encounter:
1 - Divine Glow (_the attack bonus stacks with Astral Seal's penalty_)
3 - Hymn of Resurgence (_another defense penalty, which stacks_)
7 - Wrathful Lightning (_re-position the Defender or yourself_)

Daily:
1 - Beacon of Hope (_the +5 healing enhances Astral Seal and your own Second Wind_)
5 - Consecrated Ground (_nobody dies this fight, guaranteed_)
9 - Astral Defenders or Blade Barrier (_the latter if the Wizard and Sorcerer have a lot of push or slide effects_)

Utility:
2 - Armor of Faith (_when an enemy is picking on one PC's weak defense_)
6 - Bastion of Healing or Gift of Good Fortune
10 - Shielding Word or Recall Ally

Basically, play as a Pacifist Cleric when you can, or as a secondary melee blocker when you can't. 


The place where things get interesting is your Paragon Path: you take *Warpriest*. Now you can Mark with any at-will melee attack power (i.e. Sonnlinor's Hammer), and your Mark grants you a free opportunity attack (i.e. Sonnlinor's Hammer). Pick up magic items which boost your opportunity attacks or melee basic attack: they're your main contribution to melee combat, and your main threat as a secondary Defender.


For Feats, there are some things to consider:

1/ Can you count on your DM to give you a specific magic item?
Yes = Dwarven Weapon Training (and put "+2 Disrupting Mordenkrad" on your wishlist)
No = Symbol of the Sonnlinor (and feel bad about losing the extra damage, or take both)

2/ How much of a Defender do you want to be?
VERY = Battlefield Awareness, Wary Fighter, Hammering Iron
Not so much = Coordinated Explosion, Shield the Fallen, Quick Steps

3/ You want a bonus to both weapon and implement attacks using a hammer (or axe or mace, but I recommend a hammer). The cheapest way to get both is Versatile Expertise, but that increases at levels 15 and 25 (rather than 11 and 21). Look at all your Expertise options carefully.

4/ At Paragon tier, you must take Dwarven Durability. It's so good it should not be optional. I also like Justice Hammer, since you'll be making a lot of at-will attacks (because of your Mark), and because it means you won't feel sad if you crit with Astral Seal (usually depressing because no damage -> no extra damage).


Magic Items:
*Mordenkrad of Disruption* - eat justice, evildoer!
*Rushing Cleats* - if you took the Hammering Iron feat.
*Bracers of Mighty Striking* - a cheap, solid bonus.
*Helm of Opportunity* - another cheap, solid bonus.
*Moradin's Blessing of Iron* - go ahead, Pull me.
*Armor* - Healer's Armor has been nerfed, so pick anything else.
*Brooch of the Healer* - has NOT been nerfed, so it's still awesome.


If the tactics & synergies of this build aren't obvious, let me know, I can explain stuff.

Cheers, -- N


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## Herschel (Dec 19, 2010)

Aulirophile said:


> +1 to _everyone _(including yourself) is better then +3 to one person.




I'll take the +3 for one ally just as happily. It either greatly increases the chance of landing a daily or a perfect teamwork power with a defender if you're the melee pair (which the OP is). Either build is fine. 

One thing I'd like to point out that seems to have been missed is the actual social situation teh OP listed: He's joining a new group. Ignore Char-Op twinkie builds and build something fun, cool and useful without trying to look like a show-off solo.


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## Obryn (Dec 19, 2010)

You know, I'll go ahead and give another recommendation for the Sentinel Druid.  Either build would work, really, but with all your ranged attackers, Spring/Wolf is badass.

It's a Wis/Con class, so you will have plenty of HPs and surges.  It's not only a melee-focused class, but it also gives you a second melee combatant to help protect your allies even more.  Although almost all your powers are Dailies, several of them last the whole day - and your Wizard would love you forever with the Level 6 utility (either fox's or serpent's cunning) which gives them +1 to hit.  All day.  (And a new trained skill, etc.)

Finally, your AC won't be too shoddy with Hide and a Light Shield, since Constitution helps your AC instead of Dex in light armor.

Heck; go with half-elf.  Your stats are a perfect match, with Wis/Con.  Go with the new Essentials racial power, and snag yourself another extra Leadery thing which is versatile enough to find use in every encounter.

-O


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## Retreater (Dec 19, 2010)

Does this cleric suck? 

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
level 3
Dwarf, Cleric
Build: Battle Cleric
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 18, Con 14, Dex 12, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 12.
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 12, Dex 12, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 12.

AC: 19 Fort: 16 Reflex: 13 Will: 16
HP: 36 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 9
TRAINED SKILLS
Religion +6, Insight +8, History +6, Heal +8
UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +2, Arcana +1, Bluff +2, Diplomacy +2, Dungeoneering +5, Endurance +6, Intimidate +2, Nature +3, Perception +3, Stealth +2, Streetwise +2, Thievery +2, Athletics +5
FEATS
Cleric: Ritual Caster
Level 1: Armor Proficiency: Scale
Level 2: Battle Healer
POWERS
Channel Divinity: Healer's Mercy
Cleric at-will 1: Invigorating Assault
Cleric at-will 1: Priest's Shield
Cleric encounter 1: Healing Strike
Cleric daily 1: Shield of the Gods
Cleric utility 2: Cure Light Wounds
Cleric encounter 3: Split the Sky
ITEMS
Ritual Book, Terror Warhammer +1, Crossbow, Crossbow Bolts (20), Amulet of Health +1, Hide Armor, Potion of Healing (heroic tier) (2), Dwarven Scale Armor +1
RITUALS
Gentle Repose, Comrades' Succor
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======


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## Aulirophile (Dec 19, 2010)

No, but it has (minor) issues. Your first defense feat should be Light Shield Prof, because it gives you +1 AC (just like Scale vs Chain) and +1 Ref. For the same reason going up to Heavy Shield Prof after that would be better then Scale if you still wanted to buff defenses. This naturally assumes a 1h weapon, if you want to go with a 2her Scale prof is the obvious choice. Either way picking up Dwarven Weapon Training at some point will be good. 

A crossbow is useless, it uses Dex for the attack/damage roll when you make an RBA with it. A couple of heavy thrown are a better option (albeit with shorter range). Hand axes or throwing hammers. Get a magical one as a back-up weapon eventually, it returns to your hand after throwing it. 

There is so much Wis support now you can actually make a fairly amazing Melee Cleric who is completely Wis-based. Most of the riders are Cha based, but many are just Wis based. The following build allows you to get the epic crit feat with axes, and at level 8 you can pick up one of the weapons that also acts as a Holy Symbol. Can grab Heavy Shield Prof at Paragon. Your Fort and Ref will be a little low starting mid-Heroic, but with Improved Defenses and a Belt/Boots that boost Ref/Fort (and those are extremely common) they'll be fine. You can also get both Scale, Plate, and Plate Specialization if you want to invest the feats for ridiculous AC. Switch to an Executioner's Axe if you want to go 2h and pick up Scale and then Plate at Paragon.

Oh, and you can pick up a Ranged At-Will once you get a weapon that acts as a Holy Symbol, giving you a good option for ranged buffing or healing or damage or save granting (take your pick). 

If you've decided to go Cleric I'd read this thread.

Whoops! Browser Settings Incompatible

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
level 3
Dwarf, Cleric
Build: Battle Cleric

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 14, Con 15, Dex 10, Int 8, Wis 18, Cha 14.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 14, Con 13, Dex 10, Int 8, Wis 16, Cha 14.


AC: 19 Fort: 14 Reflex: 13 Will: 18
HP: 37 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 9

TRAINED SKILLS
Religion +5, History +5, Insight +10, Heal +10

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics, Arcana, Bluff +3, Diplomacy +3, Dungeoneering +7, Endurance +5, Intimidate +3, Nature +5, Perception +5, Stealth, Streetwise +3, Thievery, Athletics +2

FEATS
Cleric: Ritual Caster
Level 1: Shield Proficiency: Light
Level 2: Dwarven Weapon Training

POWERS
Channel Divinity: Healer's Mercy
Cleric at-will 1: Sonnlinor's Hammer
Cleric at-will 1: Brand of the Sun
Cleric encounter 1: Sun Burst
Cleric daily 1: Nimbus of Holy Shielding
Cleric utility 2: Angelic Witnesses
Cleric encounter 3: Resurgent Sun

ITEMS
Ritual Book, Light Shield, Dwarven Chainmail +1, Healer's Brooch +1, Quick Waraxe +1
RITUALS
Gentle Repose, Comrades' Succor
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======


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## Unwise (Dec 20, 2010)

Similar to the previous poster, if you are happy enough with a relatively cookie cutter build, I would suggest the Essentials Warriorpriest, choosing the Sun aspect.

In heroic teir, they appear to me to be the masters of giving people extra saving throws. They are still very good healers too. What impesses me about essentials clerics is their stunning utility powers. They can pick up a great deal of healing via utility spells.

It is hard to marry up the idea of a sun worshiping dwarf. I find it fun though.

I have just started playing a Dwarf Cleric of Pelor "Durak Sunblind". He is from a deep dwarven hold, where many of them have barely even seen sunlight. The first time he does, he is dazzled by it, he just loves the outside world. He heads back into the dwarf hold and tries to tell everyone "You don't need to live underground, outside has fresh air, grass and best of all sunlight!". Naturally they all think he is very undwarfy. He persists at this, preaching on streetcorners etc, eventually his family try and honour-kill him as he shames them all with his "elfyness".

He is forced our of his home, intent to prove his sanity to his clan. He is utterly devoted to Pelor, who he believe has quite literally shown him the light and brough him out of that horrible underground 'prison'.


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## Prestidigitalis (Dec 20, 2010)

Unwise said:


> I have just started playing a Dwarf Cleric of Pelor "Durak Sunblind". He is from a deep dwarven hold, where many of them have barely even seen sunlight. The first time he does, he is dazzled by it, he just loves the outside world. He heads back into the dwarf hold and tries to tell everyone "You don't need to live underground, outside has fresh air, grass and best of all sunlight!". Naturally they all think he is very undwarfy. He persists at this, preaching on streetcorners etc, eventually his family try and honour-kill him as he shames them all with his "elfyness".
> 
> He is forced our of his home, intent to prove his sanity to his clan. He is utterly devoted to Pelor, who he believe has quite literally shown him the light and brough him out of that horrible underground 'prison'.




Very cool concept.  This is how I build characters too -- mechanics first, and then ask "How could a character end up like that?"


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## Herschel (Dec 20, 2010)

I had to roll up a shardmind minstrel last night just so I could have a Shard Bard.  It was a fun concept and even turned out pretty well. 

In other words, you can make a solid character in so many ways. Don't worry about "perfect" or "Optimized" just make a good character and have fun. A Valorous Bard can be quite good and will work in melee well enough in the party you described.


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## Prestidigitalis (Dec 20, 2010)

Herschel said:


> I had to roll up a shardmind minstrel last night just so I could have a Shard Bard.




Just don't volunteer for sentry duty when there are Red Dragons about -- you don't want to end your days as a charred Shard Bard guard.


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## jbear (Dec 21, 2010)

Ok here's is another dwarven cleric, although the advice so far has been very sound. 

I haven't looked at magical equipment. I consider that to be 'out of your hands'.



level 4
Dwarf, Cleric
Background+2 to Religion) 

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 13, Con 17, Dex 8, Int 10, Wis 19, Cha 14.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 13, Con 14, Dex 8, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 14.


AC: 20 Fort: 15 Reflex: 12 Will: 18
HP: 44 Surges: 10 Surge Value: 11

TRAINED SKILLS
Religion +9, History +7, Insight +11, Heal +11

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics, Arcana +2, Bluff +4, Diplomacy +4, Dungeoneering +8, Endurance +6, Intimidate +4, Nature +6, Perception +6, Stealth, Streetwise +4, Thievery, Athletics +2

FEATS
Cleric: Ritual Caster
Level 1: Dwarven Weapon Training
Level 2: Axe Expertise (This will effectively give your Urgosh Brutal 1)
Level 4: Armour Proficiency: Scale
POWERS
Channel Divinity: Healer's Mercy
Cleric at-will 1: Sonnlinor's Hammer
Cleric at-will 1: Brand of the Sun
Cleric encounter 1: Sun Burst
Cleric daily 1: Moment of Glory (This power can turn the course of an encounter single handedly. Seriously worth considering!)
Cleric utility 2: Return from Death's Door (A get out of Jail free card 1/day)
Cleric encounter 3: Resurgent Sun

ITEMS
Ritual Book, Scale Armour, Urgrosh


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## Nifft (Dec 21, 2010)

Retreater said:


> Cha 12.
> ...
> Religion +6, Insight +8, History +6, Heal +8






Aulirophile said:


> Cha 14.
> ...
> Religion +5, History +5, Insight +10, Heal +10






jbear said:


> Cha 14.
> ...
> Religion +9, History +7, Insight +11, Heal +11




Why History instead of Diplomacy? If you have Insight, you may want to open your mouth during social combat.

Cheers, -- N


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## Prestidigitalis (Dec 21, 2010)

Nifft said:


> Why History instead of Diplomacy? If you have Insight, you may want to open your mouth during social combat.




But it's so much more comical when the only person who realizes what's going on has to fume and fret while the others make a hash of the negotiations!


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## AbdulAlhazred (Dec 21, 2010)

Yeah, History gets the short end of the stick but it is one of my favorite skills as a DM. There are a LOT of ways you can justify it for a check in a lot of SCs for instance.


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## Nifft (Dec 22, 2010)

AbdulAlhazred said:


> Yeah, History gets the short end of the stick but it is one of my favorite skills as a DM. There are a LOT of ways you can justify it for a check in a lot of SCs for instance.



 History is a fine skill in the hands of a PC with an Intelligence bonus (rather than a penalty). A Wizard, for example, or a Warlord or Invoker or Swordmage or Warlock.

How can you defend it for *these PCs*?
Not in general, but rather in this specific instance.

 -- N


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## Nifft (Dec 22, 2010)

Prestidigitalis said:


> But it's so much more comical when the only person who realizes what's going on has to fume and fret while the others make a hash of the negotiations!



 Is that you, Durkon?


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## Prestidigitalis (Dec 22, 2010)

Nifft said:


> Is that you, Durkon?




For a penguin, you look suspiciously like a tree...


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## tuxgeo (Dec 22, 2010)

Obryn said:


> You know, I'll go ahead and give another recommendation for the Sentinel Druid.  Either build would work, really, but with all your ranged attackers, Spring/Wolf is badass.
> 
> It's a Wis/Con class, so you will have plenty of HPs and surges. . . .




Veering ever so slightly off-topic here: Speaking of the Sentinel Druid, I have a question that really doesn't deserve its own thread, so I'll ask it here (since it might accidentally be relevant to the build in question) -- 
Regarding the other Sentinel build, the Summer/Bear one, specifically regarding its weapon choices: you get 1d10 for the [W] damage with a one-handed mace, or 1d12 for the [W] damage with a two-handed mace; however, both the DDI Compendium and the updated (today) Character Builder only list the one-handed mace. 

So my question is: Where is the pricing information for a two-handed mace? 
(Sorry to derail the thread for such a simple question.) 

_Edit: If they merely expressed the difference badly, and actually meant 1d10 for a Mace when used One-handed, and 1d12 for the very same Mace when used Two-handed, then sorry not only for the question but also for my own denseness. 

Edit again: Well, yeah. OK. Morningstar, you say? And Great Club. I must have been very tired when I posted this question; I looked right at those two and didn't see them. [thx for PM]
_


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## Aulirophile (Dec 22, 2010)

Nifft said:


> Why History instead of Diplomacy? If you have Insight, you may want to open your mouth during social combat.
> 
> Cheers, -- N



I trained the same skills his example character did.


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## Nifft (Dec 22, 2010)

Aulirophile said:


> I trained the same skills his example character did.



 I guess I can't argue with that  ... but if he's still looking for advice, I'd advise him to play to his strengths (which include Cha and not Int).

Cheers, -- N


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## AbdulAlhazred (Dec 22, 2010)

Yeah, generally if you have a low stat there's not a lot of pressing reason to train in the corresponding skill(s), but it does depend on the theme of the character and maybe just the mix of skills in the party. If nobody else has a decent History bonus, then it may come in handy. Your character will never be great at it, but if someone else has the CHA skills covered already then at least you have a decent chance of passing a check if it comes up. Depending on the DM History could be a key skill or it could be pretty worthless. I know in my game for example it is a darn handy skill to have and players tend to find pretty easy justifications for using it in a variety of situations. It is a lot like Streetwise really, either really handy or just meh. Of course if you can come up with a background that allows you to train Streetwise at least that will use your CHA score effectively.


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## Dragon Sin-Camealot (Dec 26, 2010)

What all campaigns need is a leader and a command structure.  Or one or two experienced players with a proven winning record on hard missions.

If it's up to the DM to remember stuff like combat advantage and saving effects. It should be up the the player leader to remember similiar effects.

That person or persons don't have to be leaders as a class character.  They can play a striker or whatever and continue to lead the real players.  Like recommending when and how to use an encounter power.

I mostly play a group where it's up the invidual to make that choice.  I don't think DnD is a game where you will lose from second-rate choices.

Basic strategy is that you lose from several mistakes over time.  It could be two of the same mistake and three different ones.

If you want to win you will prepare to reduce your mistakes.  I know this advice isn't new.


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