# Knife of Dreams - SPOILERS!



## Starman (Oct 14, 2005)

I wanted to start a thread about the book for those of us who have finished reading it, so we could discuss spoilers.

Things I liked:
-Perrin FINALLY rescuing Faile
-Most of the Mat chapters, especially Tuon completing the marriage ceremony
-Elayne FINALLY securing her throne 
-Rand going nuts on the shadowspawn that attacked the manor he was staying at. One man army.
-Getting to read Moiraine's letter to Thom and Mat agreeing to help him rescue her
-Rand revealing one of his questions and answers from beyond the twisted door ter'angreal
-Nynaeve setting Lan up to lead an army to Tarwin's Gap
-Galad killing Valda and taking control of a large number of Children
-Loial marrying Erith

Things I didn't like:
-The battles seemed too easy-Perrin's battle against the Shaido, the shadowspawn attacking Rand and co., Mat's battles with the Seanchan, Elayne's final battle for Caemlyn. I never really got a sense that the good guys could lose. 
-Not enough Rand. He is at the center of everything and he just wasn't around much, more than CoT, but not enough.
-Stupid Forsaken. These guys are retarded. They are just now spreading the word that Mat and Perrin need to die? Sure, Ishmael did back in TGH, but you'd think it would have remained a high priority. Semirhage's attempt at kidnapping Rand was also pathetic. 
-Speaking of Semirhage's kidnapping attempt, Rand's loss of his hand seemed anticlimatic. I guess I was expecting a lot more with that. Hopefully Mat losing/trading in his eye is more exciting.
-The White Tower split is really starting to bore me. I want it over with.

Thoughts?


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## Aris Dragonborn (Oct 14, 2005)

I just finished the book five minutes ago, and planned on starting a similar thread, but it seems you beat me to it.  

My thoughts:



> Things I liked:
> -Perrin FINALLY rescuing Faile
> -Most of the Mat chapters, especially Tuon completing the marriage ceremony
> -Elayne FINALLY securing her throne
> ...




Yes, I was QUITE glad that Perrin finally rescued his wife. The only thing I didn't like about the whole situation was that I thought that Jordan dragged it out too long (but with all the other sub-plots he had to deal with, who could blame him?) 

Poor Mat. No matter how hard he tried, he still ended up married AND a noble to boot. Prince of the Ravens indeed. 

The Elayne chapters were probably my least favorite, but still well done.

Rand/Lews Therin throwing those Deathgates and Fire Blossoms around was almost as cool as the Rolling Ring of Earth and Fire at Dumai's Wells. 

I was happy to see Lan return to the Borderlands to rouse support for Rand, and even more thrilled to see Nynaeve rousing support for Lan (The Golden Crane stands for Tarmon Gaidon!). 

So, Galad is Lord Captain of the Children now. Could be interesting. We'll see.

I liked the marriage scene too, but even moreso the image I got of Loial and Elder Haman running through the halls, ears laid back and axes at the ready. I never thought of Loial speaking at the Great Stump to rouse the Ogier.




> Things I didn't like:
> -The battles seemed to easy-Perrin's battle against the Shaido, the shadowspawn attacking Rand and co., Mat's battles with the Seanchan, Elayne's final battle for Caemlyn. I never really got a sense that the good guys could lose.
> -Not enough Rand. He is at the center of everything and he just wasn't around much, more than CoT, but not enough.
> -Stupid Forsaken. These guys are retarded. They are just now spreading the word that Mat and Perrin need to die? Sure, Ishmael did back in TGH, but you'd think it would have remained a high priority. Semirhage's attempt at kidnapping Rand was also pathetic.
> ...




Why are you complaining? We don't have to read about Faile being a prisoner anymore!  But I know what you mean. I think that part of it might be that we all know what has to happen for Rand to stand a chance to reach the Last Battle, and we also know that Jordan is going to write the stories to that end. We just don't know _how_ he's going to do it (the particulars, I mean).

As for the rest, the Forsaken are retarded, because they're _still_ underestimating their enemies. The flat refuse to entertain the notion that Rand is anywhere near as powerful as Lew Therin, or that he is Lew Therin reborn. They just can't fathom that any of his allies could defeat them, and that is part of what causes them to act the way they do. 

And I think the White Tower will be re-united by the half-way point in the last book. And I also think that there is going to be a _lot_ of Rand in the last book also. 

Overall, a great book (considering that I finished in um, two days). I'll probably end up going back through the series again, just to put it into proper perspective.

Cheers!


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## Starman (Oct 15, 2005)

Aris Dragonborn said:
			
		

> Yes, I was QUITE glad that Perrin finally rescued his wife. The only thing I didn't like about the whole situation was that I thought that Jordan dragged it out too long (but with all the other sub-plots he had to deal with, who could blame him?)




I agree that it dragged far too long. The other odd thing about the rescue was Faile's reaction to Rolan's death. I expected more there. I didn't mind seeing Rolan die, though he was cool, her reaction was just odd. Aram's betrayal was a bit too quick, as well. 



			
				Aris Dragonborn said:
			
		

> Poor Mat. No matter how hard he tried, he still ended up married AND a noble to boot. Prince of the Ravens indeed.




That part was great. Mat's chapters were again the most enjoyable overall, even if there were individual parts I like more. 



			
				Aris Dragonborn said:
			
		

> Rand/Lews Therin throwing those Deathgates and Fire Blossoms around was almost as cool as the Rolling Ring of Earth and Fire at Dumai's Wells.




Definitely. I wanted to jump up and cheer reading about that. 



			
				Aris Dragonborn said:
			
		

> I was happy to see Lan return to the Borderlands to rouse support for Rand, and even more thrilled to see Nynaeve rousing support for Lan (The Golden Crane stands for Tarmon Gaidon!).




Another part that made me want to jump up and cheer. 



			
				Aris Dragonborn said:
			
		

> Why are you complaining? We don't have to read about Faile being a prisoner anymore!  But I know what you mean. I think that part of it might be that we all know what has to happen for Rand to stand a chance to reach the Last Battle, and we also know that Jordan is going to write the stories to that end. We just don't know _how_ he's going to do it (the particulars, I mean).




That's probably part of it. I still think, though, that he could make it feel more deadly. Having more of the minor characters die off in these battles would help. 



			
				Aris Dragonborn said:
			
		

> As for the rest, the Forsaken are retarded, because they're _still_ underestimating their enemies.




That's the thing, though. They've been set back in their plans so many times by now, you would think that _one _of them might start taking Rand and co. more seriously.



			
				Aris Dragonborn said:
			
		

> Overall, a great book (considering that I finished in um, two days). I'll probably end up going back through the series again, just to put it into proper perspective.




Despite some quibbles, I definitely enjoyed it, as well. It was much more exciting than the last couple of books.


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## Bran Blackbyrd (Oct 15, 2005)

Starman said:
			
		

> Things I liked:



*-Perrin FINALLY rescuing Faile*
It's about time too.
*-Most of the Mat chapters, especially Tuon completing the marriage ceremony*
Absolutely. Mat chapters almost never disappoint.
*-Elayne FINALLY securing her throne.*
About time on that one too. What annoys me about this (and this applies to a lot of the plot threads in the series) is the lack of communication. Elayne is still miffed about Rand saying he'd "give" her the throne. If any of these characters would spend five minutes talking to each other, they'd have the world in the palm of their hand. If he'd just open his mouth, she'd realize he actually has a better claim to Andor's throne than she does.
*-Rand going nuts on the shadowspawn that attacked the manor he was staying at. One man army.*
Deathgates and Blossoms of Fire! One man army!
*-Getting to read Moiraine's letter to Thom and Mat agreeing to help him rescue her*
Yes, and it appears that the party will consist of Mat, Thom and Jain Farstrider.

To which I might add:
-The last 7 pages of chapter 23. Especially when Jahar demands that the Rebel Sitters remember Eben Hopwil, who died defending his bonded Aes Sedai. I have to admit, that choked me up.
-Aram dies. It's about freakin' time. Now let's move on.
-Battlemaster Mat steps up and delivers once again.
-Halima'gar is finally revealed for what she/he is. Too bad she wasn't captured too.
-Egwene produces more interesting chapters than she has in ages.
-The midwife tastes Elayne's urine. The readers have been doing it for a few thousand pages, so it's about time it actually happened to someone in the book instead. I'm not an Elayne hater (there are a lot of them out there) but she's held the spotlight during some of the most boring drivel for the last three or four books... plus her knack for getting kidnapped and costing unnecessary lives is getting old (see below).



> Things I didn't like:



*-Not enough Rand. He is at the center of everything and he just wasn't around much, more than CoT, but not enough.*
Yup. Not enough Rand.
*-Stupid Forsaken. These guys are retarded. They are just now spreading the word that Mat and Perrin need to die? Sure, Ishmael did back in TGH, but you'd think it would have remained a high priority. Semirhage's attempt at kidnapping Rand was also pathetic.*
And as close as she came to killing him instead of blowing off a limb... she's lucky the good guys have her captive because Moridin would have her for breakfast.
*-Speaking of Semirhage's kidnapping attempt, Rand's loss of his hand seemed anticlimatic. I guess I was expecting a lot more with that. Hopefully Mat losing/trading in his eye is more exciting.*
It would be hard not to feel anticlimactic; it's been about five books since they first foreshadowed it. I'm just glad  it's done with. As for Mat; he's got a ton of Odin symbolism going, I suppose he'll eventually get maimed as well... It's all fun and games until you become the Prince of Ravens and lose an eye.
*-The White Tower split is really starting to bore me. I want it over with.*
Egwene needs to hurry up and start kicking ass and taking names; diplomatically speaking, of course.

To which I might add:
-Masema is still alive? Forget Lanfear, the whole plotline with Masema and his army is what created 'The Bore'.
-Windfinders... They irritate the ever-lovin' crap right outta me.
-The Rebel Sitters dismayed reaction when the Ashaman offer to let the rebel Aes Sedai bond Ashaman as warders, but then find out it will only let them break even with the number of Ashaman that have bonded Aes Sedai. Aes Sedai: Biggest Hypocrites Ever. It's called equality, witches; choke on that. Certain Aes Sedai are ok, but after I had to read the 353,000th specific Aes Sedai character's name, I started to hate them as a group.
-Elayne gets kidnapped for what must be the eight-hundredth time. Only Gabrielle from Xena got kidnapped and/or held at 'weaponpoint' more than this. Maybe one of these days she'll come up with a plan that doesn't end up costing anywhere from a dozen to five hundred lives because she rushed in without thinking. And this was against darkfriends that got their butts kicked in the first couple books. Was the balefire weapon destroyed or recovered? I don't remember hearing about it after the windfinder got off her high horse and fried the BA that was holding it. Most *'angreals aren't very easy to destroy.
-rant Perrin's total dedication to sacrificing a gazillion lives for Faile. Okay, he loves her, but could he do it in a less self-centered, selfish way? Even when he sees Rand's hand is missing he basically says, "Sorry, I don't have time for so much as a mental 'that's gotta hurt' I'm too busy sacrificing an army of good guys so I can rescue one person." I have news for Perrin; without Rand he'd have no army for rescuing Faile, in fact, he'd have never met her. /rant

Despite the gripes, I really do love the series As A Whole.


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## Eosin the Red (Oct 15, 2005)

Alrighty then...


MUCH better than the last book but Elayne still left a bad taste in my mouth. Not the best in the series but well done.

The big draw for me was the story moved at a good clip and the plot moved waaaayyy forward. We know the last battle is here.. everyone knows they are facing TG. Time to stop squabbling and get to whacking the DO.

Mat's stuff was good but I would have liked to have seen him get to the Tower. Enough I say, let Moir ride free. I liked the Mat & Tuan stuff.

Perrin's stuff pretty much dragged in the set up but you knew that had to happen. Should have just gone and killed Maisema. He needs a few more Ashaman... It ain't like he can't just send Grady for a few?

Rand's stuff rocked on toast. Short one hand and going blind.. ugly, but down with another Forsaken.

Egwene's chapters were by far some of my favorites. Wow, she has shaped up. I am also ready for her to start to proverbial booty stomp... I want to see Elaidia(?) howl.

Best parts of the book.... "The Golden Crane!,"  "Remember Eben," Moir's Letter, and Valda vs Galad.

PS - I think SH might have had shot at success but she fell victim to the unsteadiness of the OP. Still, a pretty dicey play for one as careful and patient as herself.

Samael??


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## Starman (Oct 15, 2005)

Eosin the Red said:
			
		

> Samael??




I'm really curious to find out what's going on here, too. If Sammael really is still around, and it's possible being his death was ambiguous, what the hell has he been up to since the end of _A Crown of Swords_?


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## ToddSchumacher (Oct 15, 2005)

So many cool things happen in this book. Many commented above so I won't repeat. 

I loved that we get Tam's questions to Perrin about Rand, his and the Village reaction to the Ahsa'man recruiting. All that, and looking forward to seeing a meeting between Tam and Rand.  I know I amy not see it in the next book, but I look forward to it. I've always enjoyed Tam scenes.

I liked that Tuon even called Mat  'Toy' while thinking of him!

I can't wait until the others learn of his marriage.

I had hoped that we got to see the rescue of Morraine, but Mat knowing of it,  and her mentioned in Rand scenes showing that plot moving forward, is good to see.


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## Samnell (Oct 16, 2005)

Starman said:
			
		

> I'm really curious to find out what's going on here, too. If Sammael really is still around, and it's possible being his death was ambiguous, what the hell has he been up to since the end of _A Crown of Swords_?




I think it might be Demandred. I don't have my book on hand to check the Foresaken Coffee Hour in KoD to see his reaction or thoughts, though. Off chance it could have been Taim, but then one has to account for how he knows what Demandred looks like.


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## Starman (Oct 16, 2005)

Samnell said:
			
		

> I think it might be Demandred. I don't have my book on hand to check the Foresaken Coffee Hour in KoD to see his reaction or thoughts, though. Off chance it could have been Taim, but then one has to account for how he knows what Demandred looks like.




Demandred is a possibility. I don't have my book with me, either, but I do remember him acting suspicious when it was being discussed.


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## Samnell (Oct 16, 2005)

Starman said:
			
		

> Demandred is a possibility. I don't have my book with me, either, but I do remember him acting suspicious when it was being discussed.




I recall that it was a Halima/Aran'gar/Balthemal POV too, which is unusual. A lot of the recent Foresaken Coffee Hours have been through Demandred's eyes.

Incidentally, remember the thing about there being two extra, unoccupied chairs at the table? Taim and Alviarin for Chosen in '08?


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## Starman (Oct 16, 2005)

Samnell said:
			
		

> Incidentally, remember the thing about there being two extra, unoccupied chairs at the table? Taim and Alviarin for Chosen in '08?




I'm not sure Alviarin would make the cut. She seems to have fallen from her height of power. I think strength in the power would count for a lot, too. I don't remember her being very strong, but I could be mistaken. I think she might end up being a Dreadlord, though.

Taim, I think, has a much better chance.


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## Samnell (Oct 16, 2005)

Starman said:
			
		

> I'm not sure Alviarin would make the cut. She seems to have fallen from her height of power. I think strength in the power would count for a lot, too.




We know that the Aes Sedai of modern days set their rankings by the power. We don't know if this is so for the Shadow. When Mesaana appears in disguise to Alviarin, she hides her strength. That could be a general part of the disguise, though. Anyway, given how the Shadow operates, I suspect aptitude at completing assignments, surviving intrigue, and raw personal power are all factors. Remember that the case for the Foresaken being extremely strong to a random Randlander works like this: In the Age of Legends, channelers had unspeakable power. Some of them went over to the Shadow. The strongest of these (who survived, and happened to be having a Coffee Hour at Shayol Ghul when Lews Thern and his gentleman callers arrived and thus got bound in the dungeon dimension) are the Foresaken. While certainly strong, a Foresaken need not necessarily be earth-shatteringly strong. Moghedien appears to be an even match for an untrained Nynaeve and she's one of the strongest the Aes Sedai have seen in a thousand years. The Moggy isn't marked up as being exceptionally powerful among the Foresaken except for in the World of Dreams.

All of that said, the modern AS do rank by strength. Alviarin managed to become Keeper to Elaida. Some of that is surely intrigue strength and political interest, but she's no certianly no slouch in modern terms of Power either. She has enough juice to Travel. Of course, fair point that she's not the force she once was. But Shaidar Haran is impressed enough with her.



> Taim, I think, has a much better chance.




There's also the issue of that Taim certainly would be in the running...but who else? What other evil, channeling figures have been of high visibility in recent books? Jordan seems to be getting his act together, so I doubt we'd see the sudden appearance of another potent channeler like we did with Cadsuane. None of Liandrin's brood have been great successes, and Moggy shielded her back in Book 5.


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## Starman (Oct 18, 2005)

Samnell said:
			
		

> We know that the Aes Sedai of modern days set their rankings by the power. We don't know if this is so for the Shadow. When Mesaana appears in disguise to Alviarin, she hides her strength. That could be a general part of the disguise, though. Anyway, given how the Shadow operates, I suspect aptitude at completing assignments, surviving intrigue, and raw personal power are all factors. Remember that the case for the Foresaken being extremely strong to a random Randlander works like this: In the Age of Legends, channelers had unspeakable power. Some of them went over to the Shadow. The strongest of these (who survived, and happened to be having a Coffee Hour at Shayol Ghul when Lews Thern and his gentleman callers arrived and thus got bound in the dungeon dimension) are the Foresaken. While certainly strong, a Foresaken need not necessarily be earth-shatteringly strong. Moghedien appears to be an even match for an untrained Nynaeve and she's one of the strongest the Aes Sedai have seen in a thousand years. The Moggy isn't marked up as being exceptionally powerful among the Foresaken except for in the World of Dreams.
> 
> All of that said, the modern AS do rank by strength. Alviarin managed to become Keeper to Elaida. Some of that is surely intrigue strength and political interest, but she's no certianly no slouch in modern terms of Power either. She has enough juice to Travel. Of course, fair point that she's not the force she once was. But Shaidar Haran is impressed enough with her.




I agree that the biggest factor is probably going to be whether or not the person can accomplish the tasks the Dark One has for them. However, Alviarin seems to have mostly failed in the end. Now, she's just getting strapped every day and is shunned by everyone else in the Tower. How much can she really accomplish anymore? I think she'll get a chance to be a Dreadlord, though. The Shadow is going to want as many of those as they can get, even if it seems Taim has trained about a hundred or so, all ready.



			
				Samnell said:
			
		

> There's also the issue of that Taim certainly would be in the running...but who else? What other evil, channeling figures have been of high visibility in recent books? Jordan seems to be getting his act together, so I doubt we'd see the sudden appearance of another potent channeler like we did with Cadsuane. None of Liandrin's brood have been great successes, and Moggy shielded her back in Book 5.




I don't think we'll see anymore major, evil channelers. The Dark One is going to have to stick with the Forsaken he has left and Taim.


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## Samnell (Oct 18, 2005)

Starman said:
			
		

> I don't think we'll see anymore major, evil channelers. The Dark One is going to have to stick with the Forsaken he has left and Taim.




So who is the other spare chair for? Since the Foresaken seem to meet in a place deliberately created each time they go there (what with all the talk of view walls and such) I have my doubts that it was left over from the Myrdraal mixer held in the same room two nights before.

A chair for Taim and a chair for who else? That's what I'm getting at about the scarce odds of a new evil channeler of significance popping up. Sure Alviarin has blown it on controlling Elaida, but her brief seems to have been generally sowing dissension and division in the White Tower. On that level, the Egwene chapters of KoD scream her massive success. I also suspect that Elaida is so earth-shatteringly stupid (even for a Jordan character) that she can do most of her own screwing up without any help from a Black Ajah Keeper.


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## Starman (Oct 18, 2005)

Well, if Sammael really is back, it could be for him. I don't know. I guess I just have a hard time picturing Alviarin on a level with the rest of the Forsaken. 

My prediction for the other chair is...Bela. There's just something not right about that horse. 



			
				Samnell said:
			
		

> I also suspect that Elaida is so earth-shatteringly stupid (even for a Jordan character) that she can do most of her own screwing up without any help from a Black Ajah Keeper.




Yeah, you're right. She is painfully stupid.



			
				Samnell said:
			
		

> I have my doubts that it was left over from the Myrdraal mixer held in the same room two nights before.




Dude, you should have been there. It was a blast!


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## Samnell (Oct 18, 2005)

Starman said:
			
		

> Well, if Sammael really is back, it could be for him. I don't know. I guess I just have a hard time picturing Alviarin on a level with the rest of the Forsaken.




I don't think Sammael is back. I think someone probably a Foresaken is using his appearance to commandeer Shadowspawn for the attack on Rand. It probably has to be a channeler to control Myrdraal and Moridin seemed pretty sure it was a male channeler. Our suspects are few, though I suppose it could be Aran'gar. The mystery to me is why cart the Shadowspawn through the Ways to nail Rand under an assumed identity. The Dark One said it's ok to kill Rand again. Semirhage's plan seems to suggest that capture is preferred still, but not required at all. Perhaps the disguise was just to avoid punishment for a kill without attempt to capture. Alternatively, Taim could be involved for his own reasons. But how Taim would know what Sammael looked like is beyond me.

Anyway, Jordan seems to be of the opinion that Sammael is dead.

http://www.steelypips.org/wotfaq/1_dark/1.1_forsaken1/1.1.1_forsaken.html



> My prediction for the other chair is...Bela. There's just something not right about that horse.




You know, after so many books I would really get a kick out of Bela being casually killed by a Trolloc as it ran by.



> Yeah, you're right. She is painfully stupid.




I'm not totally sure that Alviarin was even placed with the intent of her being Keeper. It might be nice and satisfying for the head of the Black to be Keeper, but mission-critical? Possibly not. Anyway, her POV scenes show a lot of irritation over her current public status but no sign of any setback in the Shadow's plans.



> Dude, you should have been there. It was a blast!




Some friends and I were wrecking up a Lenscrafters, just because.


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## Starman (Oct 18, 2005)

Samnell said:
			
		

> I don't think Sammael is back. I think someone probably a Foresaken is using his appearance to commandeer Shadowspawn for the attack on Rand. It probably has to be a channeler to control Myrdraal and Moridin seemed pretty sure it was a male channeler. Our suspects are few, though I suppose it could be Aran'gar. The mystery to me is why cart the Shadowspawn through the Ways to nail Rand under an assumed identity. The Dark One said it's ok to kill Rand again. Semirhage's plan seems to suggest that capture is preferred still, but not required at all. Perhaps the disguise was just to avoid punishment for a kill without attempt to capture. Alternatively, Taim could be involved for his own reasons. But how Taim would know what Sammael looked like is beyond me.
> 
> Anyway, Jordan seems to be of the opinion that Sammael is dead.
> 
> http://www.steelypips.org/wotfaq/1_dark/1.1_forsaken1/1.1.1_forsaken.html




I thought I remembered Jordan saying something like that. You're right, though, that it seems really weird for anyone to impersonate Sammael, especially after waiting this long. You would think that this would have been mentioned before if it was happening, not to mention the question of why anyone would want to. I guess we'll find out in the next book.



			
				Samnell said:
			
		

> You know, after so many books I would really get a kick out of Bela being casually killed by a Trolloc as it ran by.




If only George R.R. Martin was writing the series...



			
				Samnell said:
			
		

> Some friends and I were wrecking up a Lenscrafters, just because.


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## drothgery (Oct 18, 2005)

- Odds are it was Taim trying to pass himself off as Sammael (or just as a Forsaken). He's about the only one who might be able to pull it off, and wouldn't be more effective as himself.

- Rand is only tolerable in small doses (and has been since about book four), so I'm glad his appearances were short and to the point.

- Nynaeve reminded me of why she was my favorite character for a long time.

- Mat & Tuon are great. Quite possibly the best couple involving major characters that Jordan has set up; only other candidate is Nynaeve & Lan (mostly because Rand's relationships don't really click, being too driven by prophecy; Egwene & Gawyn had hardly any time together; Perrin and Faile have their moments, but Berelain tends to throw monkey wrenches into that relationship; Siuan and Gareth Byrne haven't really done anything, and the same goes for Moiraine and Thom).


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## Samnell (Oct 18, 2005)

drothgery said:
			
		

> - Rand is only tolerable in small doses (and has been since about book four), so I'm glad his appearances were short and to the point.




Rand's been redeeming himself for me since Winter's Heart. I got powerfully sick of him in Crown of Swords, but my incandescent hatred of most of the female characters (whether they started out interesting or have been brainless harridans all along) tends to drown out his odd quirks.


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## Dragonblade (Oct 18, 2005)

I haven't read the book yet and spoilers don't bother me, but I think I will love this book. But I will say that I actually consider Rand my favorite character, just barely edging out Mat.

So more Rand is always a plus for me. Ever since book 4 he has been one of the only major characters to fully embrace what he is and what he thinks must be done. While all of the other characters spend most of their time whining, wringing their hands, trying to avoid prophecy, or jockeying for power, only Rand has been on a steady course the whole time.

"No truce with the shadow," always struck me as a profound statement of moral clarity amidst the confusing morass of conflicting emotions, goals, allegiances, and actions that plague the rest of the characters. And yet, unlike Galad, who does what he feels needs to be done and feels no guilt. Rand does what needs to be done but is plagued with guilt. He just doesn't get all angsty about it.

Has the fact that Rand and Galad are half-brothers come up at all? I think that would make for some interesting scenes.


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## Starman (Oct 18, 2005)

Dragonblade said:
			
		

> So more Rand is always a plus for me. Ever since book 4 he has been one of the only major characters to fully embrace what he is and what he thinks must be done. While all of the other characters spend most of their time whining, wringing their hands, trying to avoid prophecy, or jockeying for power, only Rand has been on a steady course the whole time.
> 
> "No truce with the shadow," always struck me as a profound statement of moral clarity amidst the confusing morass of conflicting emotions, goals, allegiances, and actions that plague the rest of the characters. And yet, unlike Galad, who does what he feels needs to be done and feels no guilt. Rand does what needs to be done but is plagued with guilt. He just doesn't get all angsty about it.
> 
> Has the fact that Rand and Galad are half-brothers come up at all? I think that would make for some interesting scenes.




I'm not sure I would say that Rand has been on a steady course. Granted, he's had a lot of obstacles, but look how much time he's spent just sitting around at the palaces in Caemlyn or Cairhien or somewhere else. He could have easily been much more active in trying to prepare for the Last Battle.

That said, Rand is my favorite character. He's been through a lot and the worst is yet to come.

It's hard to make judgements on Galad's character because we haven't been in his head much. I think the biggest difference between him and Rand is that Galad sees the world in black and white. There's a right way and a wrong way. Once he knows what the right way is, there's nothing to worry about. It's the right way, so there is no other way.


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## Samnell (Oct 18, 2005)

Dragonblade said:
			
		

> I haven't read the book yet and spoilers don't bother me, but I think I will love this book. But I will say that I actually consider Rand my favorite character, just barely edging out Mat.




I liked Mat considerably less this book, but I think that's mainly because I'm not that interested in the whole romance plotline. Now had Mat been romancing the Son of the Nine Moons...


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## cignus_pfaccari (Oct 19, 2005)

Starman said:
			
		

> -Stupid Forsaken. These guys are retarded. They are just now spreading the word that Mat and Perrin need to die? Sure, Ishmael did back in TGH, but you'd think it would have remained a high priority. Semirhage's attempt at kidnapping Rand was also pathetic.




So, you've captured a Forsaken.  What do you do with her?

My first thought was that you just go ahead and Still her, and be done with it.  If you come to a way to make her cooperate, you can fix it.

I did enjoy this a lot better than the last couple of books.  Quite fun, really, with lots of cans of whoop-butt being opened.

Brad


----------



## Starman (Oct 19, 2005)

cignus_pfaccari said:
			
		

> So, you've captured a Forsaken.  What do you do with her?
> 
> My first thought was that you just go ahead and Still her, and be done with it.  If you come to a way to make her cooperate, you can fix it.




Just as with Moghedien, you make her cough up as much information as you can. Lack of cooperation means being stilled and executed.


----------



## iwatt (Oct 26, 2005)

Starman said:
			
		

> Just as with Moghedien, you make her cough up as much information as you can. Lack of cooperation means being stilled and executed.




Except you still her and have Nynaeve heal her. That will keep her channeleing but at a gimped level.


----------



## drothgery (Oct 26, 2005)

iwatt said:
			
		

> Except you still her and have Nynaeve heal her. That will keep her channeleing but at a gimped level.




No, you just execute her. If she's knocked down from uber-powerful to merely strong (say, on a level with Moiraine), well, Moiraine killed one of the Forsaken and made a very good try at another one. Moggy got away. Rand thinks Asmo got away. It's just not worth it.


----------



## iwatt (Oct 26, 2005)

drothgery said:
			
		

> No, you just execute her. If she's knocked down from uber-powerful to merely strong (say, on a level with Moiraine), well, Moiraine killed one of the Forsaken and made a very good try at another one. Moggy got away. Rand thinks Asmo got away. It's just not worth it.





But knowledge is power. And Sermihage is the greatest healer of the Age of Legends....

Now Sermihage is a different nut to crack than Moghy, but Cadsuane isn't Nynaeve either   



By the way, all along ther series it's been said over and over again that you can't channel at what you can't see. Shouldn't somebody come up with the equivalent of a flashbang grenade to decomission channelers.


----------



## Xath (Oct 26, 2005)

I thought Taim was one of the Forsaken disguised.  Is there something to refute this that I missed?


----------



## drothgery (Oct 27, 2005)

Xath said:
			
		

> I thought Taim was one of the Forsaken disguised.  Is there something to refute this that I missed?




Jordan has explicitly denied that he's Demandred, and he couldn't possibly be anyone else (the other male Forsaken are busy being Moridin [Ishamael], being dead [Asmodean, Aginor/Osan'gar/Corlan Dashiva, Be'lal, Rahvin, Sammael], or in female bodies [Balthamel/Aran'gar/Halima Sharanov]).


----------



## Samnell (Oct 27, 2005)

drothgery said:
			
		

> Jordan has explicitly denied that he's Demandred, and he couldn't possibly be anyone else (the other male Forsaken are busy being Moridin [Ishamael], being dead [Asmodean, Aginor/Osan'gar/Corlan Dashiva, Be'lal, Rahvin, Sammael], or in female bodies [Balthamel/Aran'gar/Halima Sharanov]).




And Rand has seen Moridin, at Shadar Logoth when he and Sammael were fighting. One presumes that having dealt extensively with Taim before, Rand would have known him by name instead of as "the Wanderer" had Taim been there.


----------



## Xath (Oct 27, 2005)

Unless he's Sammael.  Aran'gar has shown us that nothing is impossible with dead forsaken.

I have to go re-read the other books.  Right now I'm just talking out of my buttox.


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## cignus_pfaccari (Oct 27, 2005)

drothgery said:
			
		

> No, you just execute her. If she's knocked down from uber-powerful to merely strong (say, on a level with Moiraine), well, Moiraine killed one of the Forsaken and made a very good try at another one. Moggy got away. Rand thinks Asmo got away. It's just not worth it.




Agreed.

On the other hand, geeking her sends her back to Daddy, who will spin her back out ASAP.  It took several books to get the other Forsaken (Forsook?), but presumably the Dark One will want the help at Tarmon Gai'don.  Balefiring her out of the Pattern is apparently not an acceptable option, IIRC past books.

So, you Still her, and keep her under heavy guard.  After all, can't have her going and killing herself to get away.  Plus, if you're feeling adventurous, you can dangle the offer of restoring her ability to try and tease some cooperation out of her.  If she does decide to cooperate, "borrow" the Oath Rod and make her swear on that, which ought to be interesting.

Brad


----------



## drothgery (Oct 27, 2005)

Xath said:
			
		

> Unless he's Sammael.  Aran'gar has shown us that nothing is impossible with dead forsaken.




"Sammael is toast" 
-Robert Jordan

Also, Taim was in the picture before Sammael was out of the picture, and Taim looks nothing like Sammael (fooling a skilled channeler with Illusion for an extended period requires at least a vaguely similar appearance).


----------



## iwatt (Oct 27, 2005)

drothgery said:
			
		

> "Sammael is toast"
> -Robert Jordan




Yeah. He was taken down by Ishy/Moridin and Rand, when their balefire weaves crossed. (at least I think it was balefire).


Geting back on track, I liked most of the things mentioned by previous posters. 

I did like how the Seanchan think almost everything Randlanders believe in is supperstition. But I think that Seanchan omen reading (birds, etc..) probably is also true. Kind of like warnings in the pattern. Similar to what "deja vu" (sp?) meant int _The Matrix_

I disliked splitting Elayne from Aviendha (another bloody plot line developing?). Also, I hope the Sea Folk leave the picture. What an anoying group they are.

I also disliked (and always have) Cadsuane's approach to teaching Rand and the A'shaman how to laugh and cry again. Take a paranoid, stubborn, half crazy, hyper-responsible guy like Rand, who after all is said and done knows he is the only one who can get things done.  This will never mix well with someone who goes for mindgames instead of just plain talking straight.

Things I'm looking forward to: 

1) when Tuon discovers that she's married to the Horn-Blower.
2) When the Wolf-King summons the wolves to Tarmon Gaidon. No more mopy Perrin please.
3) Egwene finally getting rid of Elaida. (She was summoned to Elaida's study, at the end of her last chapter). By the way, I think the Red Mistress of Novices will be the Official one when the tower unites. I have no idea who'll be the Keeper (I like Tarna Feir as well), but maybe Leane will regain her post.
4) Tarmon Gaidon.   
5) Moraine, future queen of Cairhien (my bet is she looses her ability to channel), but who else will be
6) Tarmon Gaidon   
7) Mat kicking some Gholam ass.
8) Tarmon Gaidon.
9) Lan v/s Slayer... (I think this will be the matchup)
10) Tarmon Gaidon


----------



## drothgery (Oct 27, 2005)

iwatt said:
			
		

> Also, I hope the Sea Folk leave the picture. What an anoying group they are.




It seems like the likeability of individual memebers an exotic culture in Jordan's world is inversely related to how evil the culture is. Most non-Darkfriend Seanchan seem like pretty nice people. But their society is built on institutional slavery, and women who can channel are treated little better than pets -- and psychologically tortured to the point where they believe this is the right thing to do.

Aiel are a pretty mixed lot; some are cool, some aren't. But they've got a society that's far more cruel and unrelenting than they need to, have real issues with torture, and tresspassers into the waste are sold as slaves to the Sharans.

And there's nothing at all that's inherently evil about the Sea Folk. But except for the ones that took Elayne and Nynaeve to Tanchico, they're just really annoying individually.


----------



## iwatt (Oct 28, 2005)

drothgery said:
			
		

> It seems like the likeability of individual memebers an exotic culture in Jordan's world is inversely related to how evil the culture is.




Good examples.   

But I sort of disagree. Take Shienarans. A tradition of duty and responsibilty, and of protecting those weaker than them, and I've liked all those characters, Same deal with Saldeans. (and yes, I do like Faile, jealous and all).

Truth be told, the groups that annoy me have one thing in common: Females are the sole source of authority. For example: Aes Sedai, Wind Finders, the town with the huge Ter'nagreal thast blocks channeling.

The groups that "work" for me are those that have a balanced approach: Two rivers (Village Council/ Women's Circle); Aiel (Chiefs/Wise Ones), Ki8ngdoms of Randland (Theer are High Lords and Ladies).

I'm guessing Jordan did this on purpose, to illustrate that extreme forms of sexism are bad, maybe? Cause truth be told, you just want to shake some sense into Aes Sedai some times, and don't get me started on the Windfinders.


----------



## Samnell (Oct 28, 2005)

drothgery said:
			
		

> It seems like the likeability of individual memebers an exotic culture in Jordan's world is inversely related to how evil the culture is.




For me it isn't just the exotic cultures. I find most of the Two Rivers folk incredibly unlikeable, and they're not really exotic. Maybe it's because I live in a small town. Unlike most of the exotics, Jordan clearly expects readers to like and relate to the Duopotamians too. He's said they're based on people from his childhood.

For a while I really liked the young Tairen lords Mat hung around with in Shadow Rising. They weren't terribly bright (which is usually a deal-breaker for me) and their society was just as screwed up and abusive as the Seanchan in its own way. I guess jaded semi-urbanites are easier for me to relate to than hidebound country folk. Probably says something about me.


----------



## talinthas (Nov 2, 2005)

just finished.  I love jordan again =)

A few notes-  The last sentance of the book finally confirms that it really is Taimandred =)  (recall Lord of Chaos, where demandred is given the command to let the Lord of Chaos Rule, both in the prologue and the epilogue.)

I jumped up and cheered when Galina got jacked by Therava, and again when Suroth got sold into slavery.  Punks got what they deserved =)

The Golden Crane rides for Armageddon!  I've been waiting for that since the Great bloody Hunt =)  

Jordan is wrapping up, but i hate how so many of the long long long story arcs are coming to utterly anti climactic endings.  Like a page or two, and bam! an 8,000 page arc is ended, moving on.  Rand losing his hand, Eganin and Domon (though i really love that the tower of ghenji is finally coming into play), and so on.  

But the way the story is going, there's no way he's gonna be able to finish in one book.  And if he could, it wouldnt be very satisfactory.


----------



## Starman (Nov 2, 2005)

talinthas said:
			
		

> just finished.  I love jordan again =)
> 
> A few notes-  The last sentance of the book finally confirms that it really is Taimandred =)  (recall Lord of Chaos, where demandred is given the command to let the Lord of Chaos Rule, both in the prologue and the epilogue.)




Didn't Jordan come out and say that Taim wasn't Demandred, though? I could have sworn he did.



			
				talinthas said:
			
		

> I jumped up and cheered when Galina got jacked by Therava, and again when Suroth got sold into slavery.  Punks got what they deserved =)




I agree. 



			
				talinthas said:
			
		

> The Golden Crane rides for Armageddon!  I've been waiting for that since the Great bloody Hunt =)




This was one of my favorite parts of the book.



			
				talinthas said:
			
		

> Jordan is wrapping up, but i hate how so many of the long long long story arcs are coming to utterly anti climactic endings.  Like a page or two, and bam! an 8,000 page arc is ended, moving on.  Rand losing his hand, Eganin and Domon (though i really love that the tower of ghenji is finally coming into play), and so on.




Again, I agree. It was nice to see subplots coming to a conclusion, however, I think Jordan is under a lot of pressure to finish the series and so things that should have been more dramatic, such as Rand losing his hand, Perrin's battle against the Shaido, Aram's betrayal, etc. are being given the quick finish. It's rather disappointing. We go several books with very little happening to one book where a whole lot happens, but it's too quick and anti-climatic.



			
				talinthas said:
			
		

> But the way the story is going, there's no way he's gonna be able to finish in one book.  And if he could, it wouldnt be very satisfactory.




I'm wondering how the next book is going to be, myself. After I finished _Knife of Dreams_, I thought that book twelve is either going to be a 1500 page monstrosity to cram everything in or it's going to be shorter and very anti-climatic. I'm hoping for the 1500 page monstrosity, myself. We'll see.

Anyone see that Jordan has said that the tentative title for the next book is _A Memory of Light_. I like it and I think it leads to some interesting ideas for the plot.


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## Starman (Nov 2, 2005)

Starman said:
			
		

> Didn't Jordan come out and say that Taim wasn't Demandred, though? I could have sworn he did.




I just checked the FAQ. http://www.steelypips.org/wotfaq/1_dark/1.1_forsaken1/1.1.5_taimandred.html



> Taim is not Demandred in disguise.
> 
> How do we know? Because RJ said so.
> 
> ...




I think the quote means that Demandred has been using Taim for his schemes.


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## iwatt (Nov 2, 2005)

Starman said:
			
		

> I just checked the FAQ. http://www.steelypips.org/wotfaq/1_dark/1.1_forsaken1/1.1.5_taimandred.html
> 
> 
> 
> I think the quote means that Demandred has been using Taim for his schemes.




Also, I think Sermihage uses the phrase as well (lord of Chaos Rule), which ties in with Demandred pulling the strings (Sermihage is allied with Demandred).




> I'm wondering how the next book is going to be, myself. After I finished Knife of Dreams, I thought that book twelve is either going to be a 1500 page monstrosity to cram everything in or it's going to be shorter and very anti-climatic. I'm hoping for the 1500 page monstrosity, myself.




Personally, I'm hoping for a book in two volumes....    I don't mind a long series, I did mind CoT not having any significant plot development.


As a side note: Is the killing of shadowspan a function of gateways, or only of deathgates? (and you have to hand it to RJ, his naming of sowrd moves and weaves is pretty cool and evocative    )


----------



## talinthas (Nov 2, 2005)

personally, i love reading the battles between blademasters.  Nursemaid Walking Her Dog counters Three Swans Arguing Politics, which leads into A Man Drinks Oosquai And Gets Really Messed Up Before Beating His Children Causing Them To Fight Back, Take Their Mom And Leave The House etc.


But yeah, Rolling Ring of Earth And Fire still brings an evocative memory of that amazing scene at Dumai's Wells, even 10 years later.  Probably one of the best battles he's written.

And man, where the light were the wolves in the shaido battle?  and why no satisfactory end for sevannah?


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## Starman (Nov 3, 2005)

iwatt said:
			
		

> As a side note: Is the killing of shadowspan a function of gateways, or only of deathgates? (and you have to hand it to RJ, his naming of sowrd moves and weaves is pretty cool and evocative    )




I'm sure that the deathgate weave is different from that of gateways, otherwise Rand would have just thought of them as gateways.



			
				talinthas said:
			
		

> But yeah, Rolling Ring of Earth And Fire still brings an evocative memory of that amazing scene at Dumai's Wells, even 10 years later. Probably one of the best battles he's written.




I think that it is easily the best battle RJ has written. I crack open _Lord of Chaos_ from time to time just to read that chapter.


----------



## Dragonblade (Nov 4, 2005)

Yeah, I love that battle. Especially the visual of the chest they had Rand locked inside just exploding into a million fragments as he finally gets access to the One Power. Then all the Asha'man coming in through the gateways and kicking ass. And of course, Taim commanding the Aes Sedai, "Kneel, or you will be knelt."

Great stuff!


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## talinthas (Nov 4, 2005)

and the whole way he broke their shield by worming a strand of power through the nothingness... god, the last half of that book was fantastic.  the pinnacle of jordan.  I think dumai's well is why everyone has been so dissapointed with the rest of the books since.  They've all just been plot wrap up and talking, and no amazing decisive battles.  From Shadow Rising to Lord of Chaos was an amazingly intense stretch of action and plot, and he pretty much emptied the barrel there.  One can only hope the Last Battle is worthy.


----------



## cignus_pfaccari (Nov 4, 2005)

talinthas said:
			
		

> I think dumai's well is why everyone has been so dissapointed with the rest of the books since.  They've all just been plot wrap up and talking, and no amazing decisive battles.




Hrm...you may have something there.

There've been a few fights, but the ones with main characters have been disappointingly brief until KoD.  After all, I want to see Rand nuking things, and then going hand-to-hand with his Flame sword.  I want to see Mat being the best general EVAR.  I want to see Perrin hacking his way through Shaido and Shadowspawn.  I don't want to see Rand getting it on with some combination of his girlfriends, or Perrin being browbeaten by Faile.

Brad


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## Lazybones (Nov 4, 2005)

cignus_pfaccari said:
			
		

> On the other hand, geeking her sends her back to Daddy, who will spin her back out ASAP.  It took several books to get the other Forsaken (Forsook?), but presumably the Dark One will want the help at Tarmon Gai'don.  Balefiring her out of the Pattern is apparently not an acceptable option, IIRC past books.



I vaguely remember something about that. But my first thought after the Semirhage scene was, "If he Balefires her, he gets his hand back."

I agree with most of the earlier posters in that I thought the Mat chapters were the best, followed (suprisingly, since I disliked her in earlier books) Egwene's. Perhaps because she was out from under Halima's thumb and could exercise her full subtlety and force of will. I guess I am an Elayne hater, though, because her chapters in the last book made me ill (Time for a bath? Eight pages! Getting tea? Five pages!) and in this book I barely slogged through them to get to the better stuff. I think those around her must be getting nervous, because any time she leaves the palace everyone around her ends up getting slaughtered. 

Now begins the interminable 14-18 months until the next one...


----------



## Ulrik (Nov 22, 2005)

I wonder if it is possible to make Tor Books have an editor go over books #8-#10 and edit it down to one book? There's about one book worth (maybe) of plot development in those books, so I think it could be great.  

And another thing, is it just me or did _nothing_ happen i CoT? I remember putting down that book thinking that nothing did, and now I can't remember anything about it - and it didn't bother me in the slightest while reading Knife of Dreams... :\


----------



## iwatt (Nov 22, 2005)

Ulrik said:
			
		

> I wonder if it is possible to make Tor Books have an editor go over books #8-#10 and edit it down to one book? There's about one book worth (maybe) of plot development in those books, so I think it could be great.
> 
> And another thing, is it just me or did _nothing_ happen i CoT? I remember putting down that book thinking that nothing did, and now I can't remember anything about it - and it didn't bother me in the slightest while reading Knife of Dreams... :\





About the only things that actually happened (and not recaps or repeats) was:

- Logain is a power in his own right, with A'shaman followers
- Elayne has 4 houses with ehr (Dyelin and the 3 kids)
- Egwene is the best _Cuendillar_ maker in the world
- Elayne takes a bath.
- Mat kills a woman.
- Masema is talking to the Seanchan.


----------



## Xath (Nov 22, 2005)

> Elayne takes a bath.




Obviously the most important plot point of the book.


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## Ulrik (Nov 22, 2005)

iwatt said:
			
		

> About the only things that actually happened (and not recaps or repeats) was:
> 
> - Logain is a power in his own right, with A'shaman followers
> - Elayne has 4 houses with ehr (Dyelin and the 3 kids)
> ...




That seems right. Fortunately, Knife of Dreams was a huge improvement. Not that it was difficult, but still, it's at least as good as a Crown of Swords.

Hmm, I just started rereading Path of Daggers for the second time (I've read #1-#7 about six or seven times), I guess I really am excited by WoT again!

(Wonder what it would take to make Tor reissue #8-#10 as a single book with under a thousand pages, maybe less? It would make rereading the entire series a pleasure, and not just a pain! The Dead Marshes in LotR was a bore, but Tolkien didn't need ~2500 pages to get through it!

Anybody want to sign a petition?)


----------



## Starman (Nov 22, 2005)

Ulrik said:
			
		

> (Wonder what it would take to make Tor reissue #8-#10 as a single book with under a thousand pages, maybe less? It would make rereading the entire series a pleasure, and not just a pain! The Dead Marshes in LotR was a bore, but Tolkien didn't need ~2500 pages to get through it!
> 
> Anybody want to sign a petition?)




Well, uh, considering that Robert Jordan owns all of the rights to the books, I don't think a petition will influence Tor in anyway. I also don't think Jordan will be swayed by a petition. Artists are notoriously protective of their work and I don't think that Jordan would even ever say outloud that he could have trimmed the series down. 

If you don't want to reread them, you're just going to have to skip them or read chapter summaries.


----------



## iwatt (Nov 22, 2005)

Starman said:
			
		

> If you don't want to reread them, you're just going to have to skip them or read chapter summaries.




Reading everything in one go makes reading books 8-10 much more entertaining. (I just did it ).

Books 1-6 are awesome.

Book 7 is pretty good, except that I fell the ending is kind of forced

Book 8 rambles and doesn't have a good ending.

Book 9 rambles a lot more, but finishes very strong.

Book 10 ...... enough said  :\ 

Book 11 ..... Awesome, except that some things feel a bit rushed, but that's probably the fault of Jordan extending them too much (Faile kidnapping, I'm looking at you   )


Now the truth is, I don't think he can really finish the series in one last book. Also, since 13 is just to powerful a number, I'm thinking Jordan will get another book out of the series.


----------



## Starman (Nov 22, 2005)

Oh, I'm not near as big a critic of the last half of the series as some people. While the first six books are definitely stronger than the last five, only book ten was a big disappointment to me. 

I, too, have been wondering if he really can finish the series in one more book. It seems like there's still too much that needs to happen. I'm going to be upset if the Last Battle is as rushed as parts of _Knife of Dreams_. However, with Jordan now working on the next book, _A Memory of Light_, and still sticking to his story of it being the last one, I am inclined to believe him this time.


----------



## Headsman (Nov 22, 2005)

*Read or not to Read*

I used to try and read the books before the newest one hit the street, but after book 6 or seven I just didn't have the time.  So I got the audio disks.  A little expensive but worth it.  This allows you to skip through the boring stuff.  

Book 11 was the best book in about 5 books.  I thought that it closed a lot of the stories that were dragging on.  I look forward to book 12 but I don't see how it could be the last book.  Jordan needs to spend a lot of time on the Last Battle or this whole series will be a disappointment.  I agree that the number 13 has to much significance for an other that takes delight in hidden meaning.


----------



## Ulrik (Nov 23, 2005)

Starman said:
			
		

> Well, uh, considering that Robert Jordan owns all of the rights to the books, I don't think a petition will influence Tor in anyway. I also don't think Jordan will be swayed by a petition. Artists are notoriously protective of their work and I don't think that Jordan would even ever say outloud that he could have trimmed the series down.
> 
> If you don't want to reread them, you're just going to have to skip them or read chapter summaries.




I know it's not feasible. I just wish.   

Reading Knife of Dreams made me realize that I still like WoT a lot, something #8-#10 had nearly made me forget. What I really want is to balefire them, make it so they never happened!  

Then RJ could start over on a new #8.

(The books themselves aren't quite this bad, but I feel that they sully the rest of the series  )


----------



## iwatt (Nov 23, 2005)

Starman said:
			
		

> I, too, have been wondering if he really can finish the series in one more book. It seems like there's still too much that needs to happen.





Yeah, I share your worries. Look at what has to be finished, even without Tarmon Gaidon

- Rescue of Moraine
- Brigitte/Gaidal Cain
- Weld the armies together (Borderlander/Aiel/Seanchan)
- Peace with the Seanchan (Mat rocks)
- The broken crown and the throne of Saldea (Tenobia will bite the big one    , long live the Wolf King)
- Seanchan Attack on the White Tower
- Rebellion in the Black Tower
- Purge of the Black Ajah
- Egwene defeat Elaida
- Egwene bonding Gawyn
- Nyanaeve getting Lan's bond
- A'shaman learning to cry and laugh


And probably a lo more things I'm forgetting


----------



## drothgery (Nov 23, 2005)

I really think RJ can skip some of those

- Brigitte/Gaidal Cain

If Cain's out there, he's just a kid, and Brigitte's a main character's Warder, not a main character. This can stay unresolved.

- Weld the armies together (Borderlander/Aiel/Seanchan)

Not really important. In any kind of mass battle scenario, the forces of Shadow are royally screwed (the forces of Light have at least a 10:1 advantage in people who can channel, without the Seanchan and Shiado as dupes of the Shadow, and given that, there's only one way for battles to play out...), and there's nothing they can do about it, therefore the mass armies can't matter much.

- The broken crown and the throne of Saldea (Tenobia will bite the big one    , long live the Wolf King)

Can easily be skipped. There's no real need to resolve this before TG.

- Egwene bonding Gawyn
- Nyanaeve getting Lan's bond

Again, this can easily be skipped or hand-waved past. I mean, we know Egwene will bond Gawyn as soon as they're together and he's convinced that she's really Aes Sedai. We know Myrelle will pass Lan's bond to Nynaeve as soon as they're all together.


----------



## Ulrik (Nov 23, 2005)

drothgery said:
			
		

> - Brigitte/Gaidal Cain
> 
> If Cain's out there, he's just a kid, and Brigitte's a main character's Warder, not a main character. This can stay unresolved.




I thought this was Olver? Or is that a discredited theory?


----------



## drothgery (Nov 23, 2005)

Ulrik said:
			
		

> I thought this was Olver? Or is that a discredited theory?




Olver's too old. Time's funny in_ tel'aran'rhoid_, but it doesn't move backwards.


----------



## iwatt (Nov 23, 2005)

drothgery said:
			
		

> Olver's too old. Time's funny in_ tel'aran'rhoid_, but it doesn't move backwards.





yeah, and I thin RJ already specifically said that olver is not Gaidal.




> Again, this can easily be skipped or hand-waved past.




Yeah, he can easily skip past almost every little detail in his world, and have a book solely dedicated to a massive battle. I'd just like some better closure. Also, after all the different characters he's introduced, I'd hope for a pretty strong epilogue.



> Not really important. In any kind of mass battle scenario, the forces of Shadow are royally screwed (the forces of Light have at least a 10:1 advantage in people who can channel,




I'm not sure the correlataion is that bad, but anyways, there is the fact that channeling close to Shayol Ghul is very bad idea. Finally, a massive horde of trollocs is nothing to snear at (look at the trolloc wars). That was a time when Aes Sedai were very powerful (ability hadn't been culled from mankind), and that war lasted 300 years.


----------



## drothgery (Nov 24, 2005)

iwatt said:
			
		

> I'm not sure the correlataion is that bad, but anyways, there is the fact that channeling close to Shayol Ghul is very bad idea. Finally, a massive horde of trollocs is nothing to snear at (look at the trolloc wars). That was a time when Aes Sedai were very powerful (ability hadn't been culled from mankind), and that war lasted 300 years.




That's because the Trolloc Wars were a Plot Device; it makes no sense for them to have lasted that long given the way the world works in the "modern era" of the novels. Given how the One Power dominates battles in the novels, and that the Aes Sedai always badly outnumbered the dreadlords, the Tower should have been able to ride out in force, smack the Trollocs around, and send them running back to the Blight.

Besides, you did read that trolloc attack scene in KoD, right? 



Spoiler



Rand and a handful of others destroyed about a hundred thousand trollocs and fades.


 Trollocs are basically worthless against skilled channelers. And given that borderlanders routinely beat them without channeling support despite being badly outnumbered, I'd say trollocs are worthless against skilled soldiers. Ergo, trollocs are worthless, period. Plus 



Spoiler



they can't Travel


, which makes the a logistical liability, not an asset.


----------



## iwatt (Nov 24, 2005)

drothgery said:
			
		

> ....and that the Aes Sedai always badly outnumbered the dreadlords....




I'm sorry, but you state this as a fact, and I have seen no evidence of it in the books. Also, it was mostly the green Ajah that participated in battle. That's just 1/7th of the Ajahs. Because I don't see the White tower giving up their meddling and sending all the sisters to battle    And in the Trolloc Wars the Wise ones didn't participate in battle. I think not many will participate now either.

I think there is a lot of Dreadlords around. They're probably in the ranks of the Ashaman right now, and apparently a lot of the Black Ajah seem to be in the upper spectrum of power as well. Also, the Dark one has one huge advantage: he can replace his Dreadlords. Just needs bodies   

About the logistics: it's not that Trollocs can't Travel (I'm guessing you're inferring that from the battle in KoD). Those weren't Gateways, they were Deathgates (part of the weave helped kill shadowspan). And also, Trollocs are logistical dream: they eat whatever they find, probably even other Trollocs


----------



## cignus_pfaccari (Nov 25, 2005)

drothgery said:
			
		

> Besides, you did read that trolloc attack scene in KoD, right?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




As this is a spoiler-thread, I don't think we need to bother with the spoiler tags.  

But remember, Rand realized that without Logain and his crew there to back him and the Aes Sedai up, he'd've been overrun.  As is, one or two got almost close enough to get into melee.  And therein lies the key.

Remember, Rand is the most powerful modern male channeler in the world, with his channeling guided by the foremost male channeler of the Age of Legends.  If he has trouble with a passel of Trollocs using forgotten massively powerful combat weaves with reasonable warning, imagine how much more difficult it is for a run of the mill Aes Sedai.

Females, if you recall, favor Air and Water, which don't offer much in the way of combat weaves.  And we can expect only 1/7th of the Aes Sedai to be ruthlessly optimized for combat.  Even if we have a Green who has a thousand-yard stare, she's still not necessarily going to be prepared all the time.  A determined charge with no warning could (and probably did) kill any Aes Sedai, no matter how tough.

Even in mass battles, having a channeler on your side isn't a guarantee of victory.  They're no more arrowproof than any other person who doesn't wear armor.  Sure, there might be weaves against that, but that's a weave you're not using to blow things up.  They may not be able to kill things fast enough to avoid getting overrun and killed, as almost happened to Rand.  While he can defend himself fairly well, having him participate in melee removes him from fire support, which means many more trollocs get through.

And, of course, if there is a channeler on the other side, you'll have to get through them first.  They'll try and take each other out, effectively neutralizing each other.



> And given that borderlanders routinely beat them without channeling support despite being badly outnumbered, I'd say trollocs are worthless against skilled soldiers.




I don't know about that.  They're big and tough and wield nasty weapons; they're effectively equivalent to D&D ogres.  They're individually much more powerful than a normal person, but rather ill-tempered.  I also seem to remember that the Borderlanders really did prefer to fight them with a 3-1 ratio at least, and still took casualties.  Also, the trollocs don't seem to have nearly as many noncombatants as the Borderlanders; their females fight much more often, and also seem to be pretty fecund.

I imagine that the Borderlanders do their darnedest to choose the time and place of their engagements, and do as much of their fighting at distance as possible.  They particularly seem to employ mounted archers, if Davram Bashere's soldiers are typical, so an obvious tactic would be a rolling ambush.  Infantry would most likely be best employed similiarly to the Band of the Red Hand, with pikes and archers.

Brad


----------



## drothgery (Nov 25, 2005)

cignus_pfaccari said:
			
		

> As this is a spoiler-thread, I don't think we need to bother with the spoiler tags.
> 
> But remember, Rand realized that without Logain and his crew there to back him and the Aes Sedai up, he'd've been overrun.  As is, one or two got almost close enough to get into melee.  And therein lies the key.
> 
> Remember, Rand is the most powerful modern male channeler in the world, with his channeling guided by the foremost male channeler of the Age of Legends.  If he has trouble with a passel of Trollocs using forgotten massively powerful combat weaves with reasonable warning, imagine how much more difficult it is for a run of the mill Aes Sedai.




The thing is that it was a handful of channelers vs a hundred thousand trollocs. More typially, it'd be a few hundred soldiers screening a few dozen channelers figthing thousands or tens of thousands of trollocs.



			
				cignus_pfaccari said:
			
		

> Females, if you recall, favor Air and Water, which don't offer much in the way of combat weaves.  And we can expect only 1/7th of the Aes Sedai to be ruthlessly optimized for combat.  Even if we have a Green who has a thousand-yard stare, she's still not necessarily going to be prepared all the time.  A determined charge with no warning could (and probably did) kill any Aes Sedai, no matter how tough.




Closer to 1/4; about half of all Aes Sedai are Green or Red (slightly more Reds than Greens). Of course, we know that at least some Blues can be extremely effective in combat (as per Moiraine), the Reds probably know their way around a fight as well, and the others might need a Green to show them what to do, but that doesn't take too long (as per Verin & Alanna in the Two Rivers -- the exploding catapult stones were almost certainly Alanna's idea). I don't think Agelmar was exaggerating when he said that Moiraine would be worth a thousand lances by herself.



			
				cignus_pfaccari said:
			
		

> Even in mass battles, having a channeler on your side isn't a guarantee of victory.  They're no more arrowproof than any other person who doesn't wear armor.  Sure, there might be weaves against that, but that's a weave you're not using to blow things up.  They may not be able to kill things fast enough to avoid getting overrun and killed, as almost happened to Rand.  While he can defend himself fairly well, having him participate in melee removes him from fire support, which means many more trollocs get through.
> 
> And, of course, if there is a channeler on the other side, you'll have to get through them first.  They'll try and take each other out, effectively neutralizing each other.




But if you've got ten, and they've got one, then one of yours neutralizes one of theirs, and your other nine go to work.


----------



## Orius (Dec 5, 2005)

Initial thoughts before diving into the rest of this thread:

The good:

Galad becoming leader of the Whitecloaks.
Egwene's resistance in the White Tower.
Nynaeve dumping Lan in Saldaea and then recruiting people follow him.
Pretty much all of Mat's plotline.
Loial encountering his mother and getting married.
Loial and Elder Haman taking down the big axes to fight the Shadowspawn.
Bad guys finally getting theirs (Valda, Galina, Suroth, and Sevanna).
Lots of plot points getting wrapped up.

The bad:
Elayne's plot line taking up 7 or 8 chapters where it only needed two.
We didn't get to see Egwene confront Elaida (at least now yet).

The freaky:
The ghost village that sucked the peddler into the ground.
The ripples in the Pattern threatening to unravel everything.
Palaces and the White Tower rearranging themselves.
Semirhage taking out the entire Seanchan royal family and plunging the entire continent into chaos (yet she gets captured rather easily; shouldn't she know weaves can be inverted?).


----------



## Orius (Dec 5, 2005)

Starman said:
			
		

> -The White Tower split is really starting to bore me. I want it over with.




On one hand, this plotline has been dragged out quite long, and it probably should have been wrapped up in this book.  But on the other hand, I liked Egwene's total defiance of Elaida.  Great scenes included the disastrous novice class, the novices all standing up to honor her in the mess hall, and the parts where Egwene sows doubt into the minds of as many sisters as she can manage.  Elaida will almost certainly be brought down in the next book, and she will probably fall very hard.

What really bored me was Elayne's whole plotline from WH to KoD.  It took too long too wrap up, overshadowed too many other important plots, and was very anticlimatic when it ended.  Also annoying to me is how she's constantly blaming Rand for getting her pregnant in her PoV when she demanded he sleep with her in the first place, and then didn't bother to drink that contraceptive tea.  Slut.      (Yeah, she's my least favorite character.)


----------



## Orius (Dec 5, 2005)

Starman said:
			
		

> I agree that it dragged far too long. The other odd thing about the rescue was Faile's reaction to Rolan's death. I expected more there. I didn't mind seeing Rolan die, though he was cool, her reaction was just odd. Aram's betrayal was a bit too quick, as well.




Yeah Rolan's death was a WTF moment.  Let's see, he protects her and her friends from being raped by the Shaido drunks, offers to help them escape, and pulls them out of the building that Galina knocked over on them, all to get smacked upside the head with Perrin's hammer.  No good deads going unpunished here for sure!  And Faile didn't seem all that fazed by it either.

As for Aram's death, I was disappointed that Perrin didn't take Masema out.  I knew Aram was going to end up dying a violent death as well.


----------



## Orius (Dec 5, 2005)

Eosin the Red said:
			
		

> Mat's stuff was good but I would have liked to have seen him get to the Tower. Enough I say, let Moir ride free. I liked the Mat & Tuan stuff.




Well, I know a lot of fans have been wanting to see this for a long time now, but I'm glad RJ didn't try to squeeze it in here.  It wouldn't have fit.  Mat had too much to to in this one, and I want the Finn smackdown to kick butt.


----------



## Orius (Dec 5, 2005)

Samnell said:
			
		

> I also suspect that Elaida is so earth-shatteringly stupid (even for a Jordan character) that she can do most of her own screwing up without any help from a Black Ajah Keeper.




Persoanlly, I think Fain's influence on her back in Book 5 is what made her stupid.  I think he did something to her to enhance her natural arrogance, and sow suspision in her so she trusts few non-Reds which has lead to all her massive blunders.  Before that she was very bitchy, but she didn't seem like a moron, however I haven't read the long version of New Spring, so maybe I'm wrong.


----------



## Orius (Dec 5, 2005)

iwatt said:
			
		

> Y Also, I hope the Sea Folk leave the picture. What an anoying group they are.




I never really liked them that much.  The only thing they've really accomplished was fixing the weather in Book 8.  Otherwise, their whole Bargain with Rand is mostly pointless.  The most important thing for them to do byy the agreement was warn him of the Seanchan.  But at that point, they're already taken Amador and are on their way to Ebou Dar.  He certainly doesn't need them for the Last Battle.  Nothing else they do or say it at all interesting (a shame too, because their social structure seems a bit interesting if I could make myself care).



> 1) when Tuon discovers that she's married to the Horn-Blower.




Nah.  When Mat discovers that she knows.    



> 9) Lan v/s Slayer... (I think this will be the matchup)




I'm thinking Slayer vs. Perrin is another strong possibility.


----------



## Orius (Dec 5, 2005)

iwatt said:
			
		

> But I sort of disagree. Take Shienarans. A tradition of duty and responsibilty, and of protecting those weaker than them, and I've liked all those characters, Same deal with Saldeans. (and yes, I do like Faile, jealous and all).
> 
> Truth be told, the groups that annoy me have one thing in common: Females are the sole source of authority. For example: Aes Sedai, Wind Finders, the town with the huge Ter'nagreal thast blocks channeling.
> 
> ...




The way understand, it's supposed to show a society that is the flip side of the Middle Ages: where in the Middle Ages, women were seen as the cause of humanity falling from grace, in the Third Age men are percieved as being at fault because of LTT's pride and the tainting of _saidin_.  They're still uppity bitches, but it does make sense.


----------



## Orius (Dec 5, 2005)

drothgery said:
			
		

> It seems like the likeability of individual memebers an exotic culture in Jordan's world is inversely related to how evil the culture is. Most non-Darkfriend Seanchan seem like pretty nice people. But their society is built on institutional slavery, and women who can channel are treated little better than pets -- and psychologically tortured to the point where they believe this is the right thing to do.




RJ I think did a great job with portaying the Seanchan.  Not a place I'd like to live of course, but he sets them up TGH as a long-term threat, but in PoD he starts showing their side, because at this point most readers are probably hating their guts with stuff like _damane_ and _da'covale_.  They're not just faceless bad guys.



> Aiel are a pretty mixed lot; some are cool, some aren't. But they've got a society that's far more cruel and unrelenting than they need to, have real issues with torture, and tresspassers into the waste are sold as slaves to the Sharans.




I like the Aiel except for the Shaido.  Many of the major recurring Aiel are among the more enjoyable minor characters.  And their hostility makes some sense.  They started out as complete pacifists.  Everyone in the AoL knew what an Aiel was, but that changed in the Breaking.  They had to become hard to survive, and it gave them a very strong mistrust of anyone who was not Aiel.   When they followed the Jenn Aiel into the Waste they had to remain hard, because life there was harsh.  Bair summed it up pretty well in TSR: "Soft things die, here."



> And there's nothing at all that's inherently evil about the Sea Folk. But except for the ones that took Elayne and Nynaeve to Tanchico, they're just really annoying individually.




I agree.  They seem interesting at first, but RJ makes them boring.  I don't know if it's because they seem so arrogant, or because of the annoying Windfinders vs. Aes Sedai vs. Kin plotline of PoD.


----------



## Orius (Dec 5, 2005)

Starman said:
			
		

> Didn't Jordan come out and say that Taim wasn't Demandred, though? I could have sworn he did.




Yes he did.  I believe he also said that we haven't seen who, if anyone, he is pretending to be outside Shayol Ghul.


----------



## Orius (Dec 5, 2005)

iwatt said:
			
		

> (and you have to hand it to RJ, his naming of sowrd moves and weaves is pretty cool and evocative    )




Yeah, the sword forms have cool names. And it's also better than him simply giving a bunch of boring blow by blow descriptions of the duels.  That was another great part of the Galad vs. Valda duel — he mentions lots of sword forms that he introduced earlier, some as far back as TGH, while throwing in some new ones as well.


----------



## Orius (Dec 5, 2005)

talinthas said:
			
		

> and why no satisfactory end for sevannah?




She was captured by the Seanchan and tied naked across a saddle.  Presumably she's going to end up as _da'covale_, which really is a fitting end for her given how she enjoyed taking all those wetlanders as _gai'shain_


----------



## Orius (Dec 5, 2005)

iwatt said:
			
		

> Now the truth is, I don't think he can really finish the series in one last book. Also, since 13 is just to powerful a number, I'm thinking Jordan will get another book out of the series.




I've though for a while that it would be 13 books.  It just seems to be the right number of books to take care of all the plots, and also 13 has several significant meaning in his universe.  However, I understand that he is geting tired of working on the series (he's been at it about 20 years now) he want to get it over with.  I think he might be able to finish it in 1 book, but I doubt the whole book will be about Tar'mon Gaidin.  Though on the other hand, if he does go 13, the best possible ending for the next book would be to have the Trollocs suddenly swarming out of the Blight without warning.  I was expecting that at the end of this one actually.


----------



## Ulrik (Dec 5, 2005)

Orius said:
			
		

> I've though for a while that it would be 13 books.  It just seems to be the right number of books to take care of all the plots, and also 13 has several significant meaning in his universe.  However, I understand that he is geting tired of working on the series (he's been at it about 20 years now) he want to get it over with.  I think he might be able to finish it in 1 book, but I doubt the whole book will be about Tar'mon Gaidin.  Though on the other hand, if he does go 13, the best possible ending for the next book would be to have the Trollocs suddenly swarming out of the Blight without warning.  I was expecting that at the end of this one actually.




Well, what do you call those 100,000 Trollocs attacking Rand & Co.? 

Actually, I dread the possibility that book 12 is the last one. I've been waiting Ages for this series to be done, but if he wraps it up in the next book it will just be rushed and unsatisfactory. Even worse, the first half will just be braid-thugging, sniffing and thinking someone else knows more about women than me, and the last battle will be done in one chapter.


----------



## iwatt (Dec 5, 2005)

Orius said:
			
		

> Nothing else they do or say it at all interesting (a shame too, because their social structure seems a bit interesting if I could make myself care).




Yeah, they could be cooler, but all we see is the bossy/bitchy behavior. No info on master of the sword (i think that was their name?). What I find intersting is that a windfinders atatus is determined more by the ship's and captain status than her own ability.



			
				Orius said:
			
		

> Nah.  When Mat discovers that she knows.




Actually that would be cool,but I think the only ones that know, IIRC are Hurin, Mat, Rand, Perin, Verin, Moraine, Lan (probably), Birgitte, and Siuan. And I think Tuon was pretty honest about what info the Foretlling her _Damane_ gave her. His status as Hornblower is pretty secret IMHO. 




			
				Orius said:
			
		

> I'm thinking Slayer vs. Perrin is another strong possibility.




Yeah. Maybe Perrin in Telharanriod against Luc, and Lan v's Isam in the Blight. That would be awesome.   


Anyhow, who do you think takes down Shaidar Haran and Moridind? Rand against both?


----------



## Orius (Dec 6, 2005)

iwatt said:
			
		

> Anyhow, who do you think takes down Shaidar Haran and Moridind? Rand against both?




Probably it will be Rand vs. Moridin.  That's a pair that's faced off time and again throughout the ages.  Don't really know who if anyone will take out SH.  I haven't really thought too much about who's going to battle who at TG.  It seems a good bet the Nynaeve will eventually finish Moghedien off though.


----------



## iwatt (Dec 6, 2005)

Orius said:
			
		

> Probably it will be Rand vs. Moridin.  That's a pair that's faced off time and again throughout the ages.  Don't really know who if anyone will take out SH.  I haven't really thought too much about who's going to battle who at TG.  It seems a good bet the Nynaeve will eventually finish Moghedien off though.




Nice call on Nynaeve.    Although part of me wants to have Birgitte to get some payback   

There was a time I thought Perrin would kill SH because of the whole "neverborn" thing. But now I'm not sure. He's gotta take down the Darkhounds somehow (ouch) I think.

Mat's role in TG seems to be "just" as overall military leader I guess. Although maybe "band Of the Red Hand" and "Hand of the Dark" means something?


Actually what puzzles me the most is that apparently neither Mat or Perrin are bound to the Horn (or even to the pattern). You'd think that the other two legs of the tripod would have important/reborn souls.


----------



## glass (Dec 7, 2005)

drothgery said:
			
		

> We know Myrelle will pass Lan's bond to Nynaeve as soon as they're all together.



I didn't realise she hadn't already.


glass.


----------



## Belen (Dec 7, 2005)

iwatt said:
			
		

> Actually what puzzles me the most is that apparently neither Mat or Perrin are bound to the Horn (or even to the pattern). You'd think that the other two legs of the tripod would have important/reborn souls.




I think it was done for a reason.  Obviously, new people get bound to the pattern all the time and souls are reborn according to need.  I think that Rand needed companions that had never been spun out before.  Reborn souls seems to always follow a similiar schtick etc.

Certainly, they will both be bound to the pattern from this point forward.


----------



## Orius (Dec 7, 2005)

iwatt said:
			
		

> There was a time I thought Perrin would kill SH because of the whole "neverborn" thing. But now I'm not sure. He's gotta take down the Darkhounds somehow (ouch) I think.




I think Slayer might somehow be connected to the Darkhounds too, so that gives another reason for Perrin to take him down.



> Mat's role in TG seems to be "just" as overall military leader I guess. Although maybe "band Of the Red Hand" and "Hand of the Dark" means something?




We all know Mat's big battle coming up will be smacking down the Finns.  We've only been waiting for that since as far back as Book 4.


----------



## iwatt (Dec 7, 2005)

Orius said:
			
		

> I think Slayer might somehow be connected to the Darkhounds too, so that gives another reason for Perrin to take him down.
> 
> 
> 
> We all know Mat's big battle coming up will be smacking down the Finns.  We've only been waiting for that since as far back as Book 4.





Nice call with respect to Slayer.


Yeah, the Finns. I think it will actually be Thom's time to Shine. Has anyone figured what "irno to bind" means (the riddle).


----------



## Starman (Dec 8, 2005)

iwatt said:
			
		

> Yeah, the Finns. I think it will actually be Thom's time to Shine. Has anyone figured what "irno to bind" means (the riddle).




You need iron to kick their asses.


----------



## iwatt (Dec 8, 2005)

Starman said:
			
		

> You need iron to kick their asses.





you want to bind their what   

....


----------



## glass (Dec 8, 2005)

It just shows how big and sprawling this series has become. I had completely forgotten about the Slayer until he was mentioned in this thread, and I still can't remember who the Finns are.


glass.


----------



## Starman (Dec 8, 2005)

glass said:
			
		

> It just shows how big and sprawling this series has become. I had completely forgotten about the Slayer until he was mentioned in this thread, and I still can't remember who the Finns are.
> 
> 
> glass.




The Aelfinn and the Eelfinn (or however they're spelled) are the snakes and foxes-the creatures that live through the twisted doorway ter'angreals. One group answered questions, the others gave Mat his ashandarei, memories, and then hung him.


----------



## Orius (Dec 11, 2005)

Starman said:
			
		

> The Aelfinn and the Eelfinn (or however they're spelled) are the snakes and foxes-the creatures that live through the twisted doorway ter'angreals. One group answered questions, the others gave Mat his ashandarei, memories, and then hung him.




Yes, they were named back in Book 4, back when they were introduced and we were told about the Tower of Ghenjei.  Book 9 established that the Aelfinn are the snakes (and that by extention the Eelfinn are the foxes).  They are mentioned again several times in this book, most prominently when Thom gives Mat his letter from Moiraine to read. Mat believes that the Eelfinn (and possibly the Aelfinn as well) somehow are inside his head, watching everything he does, which is something that makes him very uncomfortable.


----------



## glass (Dec 11, 2005)

Starman said:
			
		

> The Aelfinn and the Eelfinn (or however they're spelled) are the snakes and foxes-the creatures that live through the twisted doorway ter'angreals. One group answered questions, the others gave Mat his ashandarei, memories, and then hung him.



Oh I see. I knew who the Aelfinn and Eelfinn were, I just didn't make the connection.  


glass.


----------



## Ashrem Bayle (Dec 15, 2005)

Something that occured to me reading the last book...

I think Moradin may betray the Dark One:

1. Way back in the beginning, in the prologue to Eye of the World, Ishamael offered Lews Therin a chance to join him, and together they would destroy the Dark One forever.

2. Ishamael has been spun out of the Bore hundreds or thousands of times, witnesssing the cycles each time. He tells Rand that the cycles has been repreating itself over and over again for thousands of years, and he is sick of it. I can't remember his name off the top of my head, but Rand had a sage/advisor that believed the same thing, and he believed that this time something was different, Rand could break the cycle. Unfortunatly, he was killed before Rand could talk to him about it.

3. Moradin saved Rand's life when fighting Sammael. Why would he do that?

Just some random thoughts. Moradin uses the True Power exclusivly now, which is supposed to bind you the the Dark One even farther, but a lot of things just aren't adding up with him.


----------



## Belen (Dec 15, 2005)

Ashrem Bayle said:
			
		

> Something that occured to me reading the last book...
> 
> I think Moradin may betray the Dark One:
> 
> ...





Personally, I think they are fated to seal the bore as if it has never been created.


----------



## Ashrem Bayle (Dec 15, 2005)

BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> Personally, I think they are fated to seal the bore as if it has never been created.




Maybe this requires the True Power, if it does, it makes sense that Moridan would have to gain the favor of the DO, so he could use it. But the DO can cut him off from it at any time, so who knows?


----------



## Aaron L (Dec 16, 2005)

iwatt said:
			
		

> Actually that would be cool,but I think the only ones that know, IIRC are Hurin, Mat, Rand, Perin, Verin, Moraine, Lan (probably), Birgitte, and Siuan. And I think Tuon was pretty honest about what info the Foretlling her _Damane_ gave her. His status as Hornblower is pretty secret IMHO.





Dont forget Egwene, Nynaeve, Elayne, Rhuarc, and Faile.  


I am waiting anxiously to see Rand and Tam meet again.  I hope it isnt glossed over like Rand and Logain meeting.  That made me throw the book in disgust.


----------



## Ashrem Bayle (Dec 16, 2005)

Aaron L said:
			
		

> Dont forget Egwene, Nynaeve, Elayne, Rhuarc, and Faile.
> 
> 
> I am waiting anxiously to see Rand and Tam meet again.  I hope it isnt glossed over like Rand and Logain meeting.  That made me throw the book in disgust.




I didn't like the way Tam reacted to hearing Rand was the Dragon Reborn. It was like:

*Perrin:* Your son is the messiah/anitchrist.
*Tam:* Bummer...


----------



## Aaron L (Dec 16, 2005)

I think Tam may already have pieced it together himself.  Hes rather worldly and pretty sharp, and if he knew anything about the Prophecies, well, he KNEW where Rand was born, after all.  So his reaction wasnt as stunned as someone who had no idea.


----------



## Ashrem Bayle (Dec 16, 2005)

Aaron L said:
			
		

> I think Tam may already have pieced it together himself.  Hes rather worldly and pretty sharp, and if he knew anything about the Prophecies, well, he KNEW where Rand was born, after all.  So his reaction wasnt as stunned as someone who had no idea.




Yeah, maybe you're right.

And hey, did anyone else notice the sheer number of lesbians mentioned in this book? It seemed like every other page mentioned a "pillow friend". Of note, I thought were about to see some hot Chosen on Chosen lesbian action for a few pages there.


----------



## Orius (Dec 18, 2005)

Ashrem Bayle said:
			
		

> And hey, did anyone else notice the sheer number of lesbians mentioned in this book? It seemed like every other page mentioned a "pillow friend". Of note, I thought were about to see some hot Chosen on Chosen lesbian action for a few pages there.




Yeah, I was wondering the same thing.  The White Tower seems absolutely rife with lesbianism. Moiraine did it, Siuan did it, Elaida did it, practically half of them seem to have done it.

On the other hand I thought it was funny that that old bat Romanda enjoyed reading that romance novel about heroes like Birgitte.

Also, what's with all the foul-mouthed Aes Sedai too?  There's already Doesine who was introduced back in Book 8, and characterized by lots of swearing.   But this book had at least 3 or 4 more sisters with bad mouths.


----------



## iwatt (Dec 19, 2005)

Aaron L said:
			
		

> Dont forget Egwene, Nynaeve, Elayne, Rhuarc, and Faile.




Forgot about Faile and Rhuarc. But Nyaneve and Elayne specifically don't know (Birgitte spelled this out in  Ebou Dar). Possible Egwene learnes MAt was the Hornblower from Siuan, but that is just guesswork at this point.


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## iwatt (Dec 19, 2005)

Orius said:
			
		

> Yeah, I was wondering the same thing.  The White Tower seems absolutely rife with lesbianism. Moiraine did it, Siuan did it, Elaida did it, practically half of them seem to have done it.




Actually, it's not that wierd if you consider Aes Sedai arrogance. It's hard to feel an emotional bond with somebody who you consider your inferior. Kind of like the ancient greeks felt about women   .


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## drothgery (Dec 19, 2005)

iwatt said:
			
		

> Forgot about Faile and Rhuarc. But Nyaneve and Elayne specifically don't know (Birgitte spelled this out in  Ebou Dar).




Birgitte beleives they don't know. She is incorrect. Moiraine talked about Mat blowing the Horn of Valere in front of Elayne, Egwene, and Nynaeve (and possibly Aviendha, I don't remember if she was there or not) at the end of The Dragon Reborn.


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## iwatt (Dec 19, 2005)

drothgery said:
			
		

> Birgitte beleives they don't know. She is incorrect. Moiraine talked about Mat blowing the Horn of Valere in front of Elayne, Egwene, and Nynaeve (and possibly Aviendha, I don't remember if she was there or not) at the end of The Dragon Reborn.





Ah, I'd forgotten about that part. Part and parcel of all the secrets and mysteries everybody keeps from everyone else.  :\


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## Orius (Dec 25, 2005)

iwatt said:
			
		

> Actually, it's not that wierd if you consider Aes Sedai arrogance. It's hard to feel an emotional bond with somebody who you consider your inferior. Kind of like the ancient greeks felt about women   .




Good point, not to mention the fact that few men want to be with an Aes Sedai to begin with.  Also, they do try to discourage novices from thinking too much about boys because they don't want them to get pregnant while training, maybe that has something to do with it too.


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## iwatt (Dec 26, 2005)

Orius said:
			
		

> Good point, not to mention the fact that few men want to be with an Aes Sedai to begin with.




Alos, form Toveine's POV (she's one of Logain's wenches    ) she preferred young boys to men. Kinda of like men who like young girls  :\  I'm guessing the WT is rife with sexual disfunction.

By the way, you'd think everybody in Randland would be more promiscous giving the apparent availabilty and good track record of birth control herbs.


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