# Eve of Mirkwood [Full]



## Dlsharrock (Apr 2, 2008)

*The Third Age of the Sun*, and long have the sons of _Numenore _struggled against the tides of evil. The _Witch King of Angmar_, Lord of the Nazgul, holds dominion in the north and threatens the diminishing kingdom of _Arnor_. He seeks an end to the age of Men. 

In the south, _King Umbardicil_ of _Gondor _battles to maintain his country's borders against the barbarian hordes and especially the _Wainriders of Rhun_. The _Dwarfs of Moria_ have vanished, and the _Elves of Lorien_, _Rivendell _and _Belfallas _are enshrined, unwilling or unable to help the ailing Dunedain. 

Moreover, something evil stirs in the shadows of _Mirkwood_.

The Eve of Mirkwood is a Middle-Earth game set in the realm of Tolkien during the latter centuries of the Third Age of the Sun (TA 1874 to be precise). I'm looking for players who are fans, or who just fancy the chance to explore Third Age Middle-Earth. Knowledge of chronology and mythology are not requirements! In terms of posts, please don't be afraid to use your keyboard. One line players or abbreviated turns (ie Foobar goes NW and KOs the orc) are definitely not my preference.

Expect the setting to be historically accurate, with everything you'd expect to find during this time period within north-western Middle-Earth, including the relevant races, political infrastructures, prominent protagonists and enemies. Having said that, I don't intend to impose linear restrictions on players. If you want to battle the Witch King of Angmar and hunt down the unmentionable evil haunting the twisted depths of Mirkwood then that's fine by me. If you'd prefer to avoid tangling with known chronological events and would rather  just adventure in the dungeons, mountains, cities and wilderness of Middle-Earth that's fine too.

I haven't yet decided on a method of bringing the group together. I intend to look at the characters suggested first, then come up with a reason the group might come together. 

Please submit character ideas to this thread using the character guide below, or email to me if you feel more comfortable doing so (davidATfarcountryweb.co.uk). I'll get in touch with you by email probably. I'm planning on using D&D 3rd ed.

*CHARACTER CREATION GUIDE*
Please no known protagonists like Gandalf or Elrond, no members of the Ainur (Valar or Maiar) and no kings, queens, princes or other politically prominent characters who might throw a spanner in the works of existing chronology. Feel free to ask me about possibilities for any unusual character ideas you have.

PCs you may consider include
*Hobbits *(Falohide) adventurous folk from the Shire or thereabouts. Those with strong Falohide blood include Tooks, Brandybucks and Bagginses. (Race/subrace suggestion: Gnomes, minus the engineering tendencies. Halflings, possibly, though they are more aggressive than Hobbits. No subrace suggestion).
*Hobbits *(Stoor) riverfolk and fishing hobbits from villages in and around Middle-Earth's many rivers. The Brandywine, Anduin and Lune are all good. (Race/subrace suggestion: Gnomes again, minus the engineering tendencies. Halflings are more likely as the Stoor are quite combative (_Smeagol was a Stoor Hobbit_). No subrace suggestion).
*Dwarfs* Durin's folk are in Moria and have closed their doors to the outside world. Dwarfs may be scattered in small groups elsewhere around Middle-Earth but there are no large contingencies of dwarfs abroad in Middle-Earth during this period. (Race/subrace suggestion: Dwarf, Middle-Earth dwarfs fit the template well. Subrace: Deep Dwarfs might work for those who have delved deep into Moria, but they are very much entrenched in Moria, so very unlikely to be usable as an adventurer)
*Elves* (Silvan) from the Greenwood region, ruled by Thranduil the Sindar lord and father of Legolas. Greenwood, at this time, is in the grip of an unknown evil and is widely known as Mirkwood. (Race/subrace suggestion: Wood Elf subrace (also known as Sylvan)
*Elves* (Falathrim) the sea-loving elves, led by Cirdan the Shipwright. They live in Grey Havens in the Gulf of Lune.  (Race/subrace suggestion: Gray Elf).
*Elves* (Sindar/Noldor) the elves of Lothlorien ruled by the Lady Galadriel and Lord Celeborn. (Race/subrace suggestion: Grey Elf)
*Elves* (High elves/any) the elves of Rivendell, ruled by Lord Elrond. (Race/subrace suggestion: Gray Elf)
*Elves* (Any) there are some elves in Edhellond, an elf haven in the Bay of Belfalas, and some in the enclave's main city of Dol Amroth. (Race/subrace suggestion: Gray Elf)
*Men* (Dunedain) Arnorians or Gondor Men. The rangers, disenfranchised men of Arnor, are yet to appear in numbers,  but there may be a few rangers who have removed themselves from Fornost etc. because of plague and subsequently wander the wilderness Aragorn-style.
*Men* (Dale Men/Bardings) Men from the Dale, the town on the edge of Lake Esgaroth and in the shadow of the Lonely Mountain (The Hobbit).
*Men* (Éothéod) Northmen and horse masters. In this period they live in the vale of Anduin, most notably the north of Mirkwood. They will one day become the Rohirrim of Rohan.
*Men* (Atanatari) Scholarly men from any region, but preferably Arnor or Gondor.
*Men* (Dunlendings of Eryn Vorn) hostile to Arnorians and Gondor Men, suits foresters and tracker/burglar type characters.
*Men* (Dunlendings of Tharbad) less prejudice against the Dunedain, but still uneasy around men of Arnor or Gondor. Originating from the town of Tharbad.
*Men* (Rhovanian) refugee nomad from the Wainrider oppressed lands of Rhovanion.
*Men* (Beorning) huge, gruff, black haired and grizzle bearded Men of Mirkwood. The Beornings are woodsmen and hunters. 
*Men* (Dorwinians) refugees fleeing the Wainrider Easterling barbarians. Come from the west shore of Rhun, the inland sea, and are famed as makers of fine wines and strange alcoholic drinks.
*Men* (Forodwaith) Men of the icy kingdom to the north  known by most as the Lossoth or Forodwaith. High endurance to the cold,  but should be a reason why a lone Lossoth has ventured into Middle-Earh.
*Men* (Lakemen) Men of the stilted town in Lake Esgaroth, as encountered by Bilbo in The Hobbit. 
*Men* (Woodman) From Southern Mirkwood. Hunters, trackers and natural rangers, at home amid the trees, but particularly the trees of Mirkwood.


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## Fenris (Apr 2, 2008)

Oh yeah, count me in. Big Tolkein fan. Let me ponder a concept for a bit. Any of the races listed below are OK? Any restricted classes? Stat roll, point buy, starting level, money, magic level (eg items) etc?


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## Dlsharrock (Apr 2, 2008)

Any of the characters in the list above are ok. I leave it up to enterprising players to ponder/suggest parallel D&D classes. I'd just like to hear character ideas for now and will sort out things like stats, starting equipment etc. once I have a better idea of the shape of the group and a likely starting location.

I should probably also point out at this stage that I'm off on holiday next week and will be back on the 13th April, so there's plenty of time before the game begins (around that date) to discuss characters and come up with possibilities in this thread.

_Edit_: oh, and with regard to magic, Middle-Earth is a bit restrictive in that sense and most magic is reserved for the relevant maiar, most notably the five Istari wizards and the 'evil ones', and some of the more prominent Elves, so magic user classes are probably out of bounds (though I'll consider anything!).


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## Ilium (Apr 2, 2008)

This is interesting, but it's hard to come up with a character concept without even a level guide.  If I want to make a thief from Minas Tirith, should he be a small-time hustler or a master cat burglar able to penetrate the home of the Steward himself?  (Not that I'm actually interested in such a character, it's just an example).


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## Shayuri (Apr 2, 2008)

I've always been rather interested in Tolkien's world. I'd like to give this a try.

Elfyness appeals. I especially like the idea of being originally from Greenwood, so I have a clear and powerful tie to the theme of the game.

Class I'll have to think on. More info, like Illium suggests, would be useful.

Oh, and is this "movie Tolkien," or "book Tolkien?"

Magic seemed -more- common/D&Dish in the movie, though by no means common nor D&Dish compared to most contemporary fantasy.


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## Dlsharrock (Apr 2, 2008)

Ok guys, it's definitely a valid point. I'll have a think and come up with something, hopefully to post tommorrow, regarding levels, starting information and so on. 



> Oh, and is this "movie Tolkien," or "book Tolkien?"




Very much book Tolkien. As mentioned previously, knowledge of chronology isn't crucial from a player perspective. From a GM perspective I'm sticking as strictly as I can to a  mixture of official encyclopedias, bestiaries, Silmarillion, Hobbit and Lord of the Rings, plus Tolkien's notes and some of the stuff released by his son, in order to make the period as true to the histories as possible. The only book I haven't studied in great detail is The Children of Húrin, though I do know the story.



> Magic seemed -more- common/D&Dish in the movie, though by no means common nor D&Dish compared to most contemporary fantasy.




Magic relies much more on artefacts than the energy-based 'manna' magic of D&D, though true magic users like Sauron have an inherant spiritual ability to create what I'd deem D&D style sorcery. Even Gandalf is somewhat lost without his staff (and in book Tolkien, by Narya, the Elven ring of fire). It really does depend on where he is though. In the Undying Lands, where he's more maiar than man, he's only a couple of rungs down the evolutionary ladder from godhood.



> If I want to make a thief from Minas Tirith, should he be a small-time hustler or a master cat burglar able to penetrate the home of the Steward himself?




A nice idea for a character actually, and a good potential reason for him becoming an adventurer. The honour-bound Gondor Men of Minas _Arnor _(doesn't become Minas Tirith until Minas Ithil "Tower of the Moon" fell to the Witch King of Angmar and became Minas Morgul "Tower of the Wraiths" when the Gondor Men renamed Minas Arnor "Tower of the Sun" to Minas Tirith "Tower of the Guard"- and in our period the Witch King is still very much in Angmar) um, where was I, the honour-bound Gondor Men of Minas Arnor would likely throw him out of the city at a pinch for doing something so unholy as nicking stuff.


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## Redclaw (Apr 2, 2008)

I would love to play a rider of Rohan, although I don't know what might have led him to leave his home behind.  Give me some time to think about it and come up with a good reason.


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## Dlsharrock (Apr 2, 2008)

Good choice, I look forward to seeing your idea take shape. FYI The riders of Rohan are still known by the more romantic name Éothéod (or the less romantic Northmen) in this time period. They are yet to ally with Gondor to the extent where they will be given the Plains of Calenardhon, which subsequently are renamed Rohan. In effect, Rohan as a country doesn't exist yet. See the map in the first post in this thread for an idea of how Middle-Earth looks in TA 1874. I'm still tweaking the map and will attach a bigger finished version when I get back from holiday.


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## Binder Fred (Apr 3, 2008)

Hello all, 
      New to the forum but I've played with Dave before (and I'm back, which should tell you something . 

      Anyway, I think it would be helpful to state what level we as players would prefer, give our DM an idea of what he's dealing with. I personally prefer low level games, say somewhere around 3rd level. Haven't quite decide re character as I was initially thinking of a peasantish dwarven fellow which might or might not work here; thinking on it. 

       Most of all though, I think it's important to form links between characters so we don't end up a collection of loose pieces. Dave has been very flexible on this in the past so I'll just throw out some ideas and see if anybody's interrested (correct me if I overstep in any way, Dave). On to it : Binding can be done through a strong common motive or through existing links between characters. Both would excellent! Those who've spoken up so far seem to lean toward a Mirkwood theme, and I count an exiled thief plus disenfranched rider, so how about basing the start point around a Beorn (Elrond?)-style village in/by the edge of the forest (mix of logging, gathering and small fields?)? Characters would be a mix of perfecly respectable settlers plus semi-outcasts from elswhere who have come to try and start a new life (not necessarely a good idea for them long term). We can even add a noble-and-guard in there if need be, say they've been sent to get them out of the way or as semi-punishement so they can "get some sense into their heads" by ruling over a small village for a while. Something bad happens (it always seems to, doesn't it?  and off we go!

       In this set-up and dwarf or not, my character would probably be either the smith and/or the mister fix it of the village so he'd be available to take on an apprentice/son/daughter/niece/debts ridden relative from Minas Anor if any of you feel so inclined (Fred looks in Ilium's general direction... .

Binder Fred, Brainstorming away.


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## renau1g (Apr 3, 2008)

Definitely interested... I'd love to play either a dwarf fighter (I've loved the Moria-dwarves) or a Beorning Barbarian. I love Tolkien and Middle-Earth. I look forward to seeing more info.


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## Dlsharrock (Apr 3, 2008)

Greetings to everyone whose expressed an interest so far: Fenris, Ilium, Shayuri, Redclaw, Binder Fred and renau1g. Hi to you all and thanks for showing an interest! I'm looking forward to seeing where this all goes.

No more player apps at this point please. I'd prefer the group to remain between 4 and 6 players, preferably less so I'm anticipating a few non-returners, but if not then I won't complain! If it looks very much like one of the applicants we've seen so far isn't going to further their character, then I'll open up spaces (if a previous applicant hasn't posted something by the time i get back from holiday on 13th April, for example). And if you've expressed an interest but now decided you don't want to play please let me know.

Below are the additional details I promised. Hopefully this will make character generation easier. Firstly, just to address comments made since my last post.



			
				Binder Fred said:
			
		

> Dave has been very flexible on this in the past so I'll just throw out some ideas and see if anybody's interrested (correct me if I overstep in any way, Dave).




I positively encourage this kind of discussion! A settlement around Mirkwood would be doable, but dangerous. Settlers would be _Woodmen_, most likely, intermingled with refugees from the deep wilderness of eastern _Rhovanian_. This region (from the River Running to the _Sea of Rhun_) has been overwhelmed by the _Wainriders _(so called because of their fabulous many horse-drawn chariots called Wains) who are influenced by dark powers and the current greatest threat to the kingdom of Gondor. Some _Beornings _might also be present in the settlement, as they are allies of the Woodmen and Thranduil's _Sindar Elves_ in north Mirkwood (might also be some of these helping the settlement defend itself). 

I would actually suggest, if other potential players like this starting point idea, we use the existing town of _Dale_. This would put the initial game in a relatively safe spot. Given the dangers on all sides otherwise I don't know how long a settlement further south would last and I'd rather not start the game with a massive war 

Dale, of course, is the town on the bank of lake _Esgaroth _and fans of The Hobbit will remember it as the town utterly destroyed by _Smaug _in 2770 of the Third Age. Our game is set in 1874, (that's way before even the dwarfs of Durin's line emerge from Moria and settle in the Lonely Mountain just north of Dale). The other settlement here is _Lake-Town_, a stilted town on the Long Lake itself. Lake-Town is less open to strangers, so you'd get less of a mix of characters. Dale, on  the other hand, would likely be a thoroughfare for Thranduil's Sindar elves from Mirkwood, Beornings and even _Eotheod _from the north of the woods as they patrol the extent of their territory. In this time period it's also feasible refugees from Rhun might settle here, in which case you open characterisation to all sorts of new possibilities. Little is written about the indigenous people of Rhun, so you're free to embellish a bit or use some of the more unusual existing people (Dorwinians for example). The northerly town of Dale would also allow the inclusion of a Man from Forodwaith who might wander down through the pass between the Iron Hills and the Grey Mountains. 

*CHARACTER CREATION UPDATES*

- *Abilities:*
Non-Standard point buy, 28 points. All players begin with 28pts, abilities start at 8. Allocate the abilities accordingly, but remember point costs rise if you increase the score above 14 (8pts for 15, 10pts for 16, 13pts for 17, 16pts for 18).
- *Level:*
All characters start at level 2, with 1000 +6HD XP (I'll trust you to roll yourself), max 5 ranks in any skill (2 and half for cross-class skills) and 1 feat. If you prefer, or if your character's background determines, you may start at level 1 and supply the number of XP you have.
- *Starting gold:*
Use the appropriate random roll for your chosen class then equip yourself accordingly. For purposes of expediency we'll assume D&D currencies and Middle-Earth currencies are one and the same. Metal worth is the key, rather than stamped coins, though some coins (like ancient Elven coins for example) might be worth more than others on rare occassions.
- *Weapon/Armour restrictions:*
Scimitars are Harad barbarian weapons, only found in the far south.
No tiny or small exotic weapons.
Armour is restricted to Hide, Padded, Scale or Splint and helms/shields/gauntlets. Banded and Plate are only available in Gondor or Rivendell at this time. Dwarfs will wear Dwarf mail (chainmail) which is as natural to them as skin to everyone else, despite Gimli's chainmail comedy moment in LotR. Any other character can also wear Dwarf Mail.
- *Subraces/Races:*
I've updated the first post of this thread to _suggest _which subraces you can use as templates for the various Middle-Earth races. Feel free to use a preferred race instead.
- *Class restrictions:*
Only elves may be magic users, and I'll be restricting the magic available at each level, in keeping with the low-end magic of the setting. I have to be quite careful here as even the most powerful wizards of Middle-Earth have only a fraction the power of your average D&D magic user. All spell casters are either bards, druids, clerics or sorcerers, with sorcerers being the preferred choice. Clerics will hail from Gondor or Arnor and will be trained from one of the major city chapels. Religion doesn't feature very highly outside the major civilisations, nor particularly within them, because faith is kinda defunct (when the devil just burned down your village and the gods live on a neighbouring continent, who needs faith?). Monarchy, heirarchy and spirituality are paramount.
Monks should be of exotic race, like maybe Forodwaith. Preferably no monk class, though.
- *Skill Restrictions:*
No scry. Scrying is restricted to the use of Palantiri.
- *Feat Restrictions:*
I'm feeling in the dark a bit here, but I'm inclined to suggest against Metamagic Feats. Item Creation Feats should only apply to Elves who are former Elven Smiths of Eregion, any survivors of which would have retreated to Rivendell or Lorien and should hail from that region. The Scribe Scroll Feat is probably inappropriate.
- *Religion Restrictions:*
Middle-Earth has its own group of godly beings. You might want to check out the Lord of the Rings wiki http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Valar for more information. Different races favour different Valar (the dwarfs were forged by Aule for example), while some races recognise all the Valar. As mentioned previously, there isn't really religion in Middle-Earth persay,  just deep rooted spirituality and a clear-cut sense of good vs evil. Minas Tirith (Minas Arnor in our game) had a chapel, so presumably the Men of Gondor worshipped the Valar somehow, or they may have worshipped Eru, the One, (or Iluvatar) an omnipotent being who conceived all of creation, including the Valar. Certainly, none of the existing D&D religions apply.


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## Shayuri (Apr 3, 2008)

Hey there! Looks like it's coming along nicely. I do have a question and comment...

Question!

Is this 3.0, or 3.5. Bearing in mind that every SRD I know of is 3.5...and I no longer have my 3.0 books. 

Comment!

I like the idea of low magic, and I think as long as you're careful in selecting foes, it can work decently well. The one place it can fall over is on the question of healing. I agree that Middle Earth is an awkward fit for concepts like 'clerics,' and while druidic magic seems more in line with the woodcraft of elves and similar, the class has a lot of stuff that then doesn't fit like animal companions and wildshape.

I seem to recall some threads discussing low-magic settings in D&D...they may address this. There may also be some commonly used house rules regarding healing without clerics that have been discussed. I'm not sure offhand, but it's probably worth looking into.

As for my character, I was thinking ranger...but now I'm thinking Scout. Rangers have some of the same problems druids do, with their animal companion and magic powers. A scout, from Complete Adventurer, also seems more...'elfy' to me. Highly mobile, sneaky, lightfooted... More to come.


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## Dlsharrock (Apr 3, 2008)

Shayuri said:
			
		

> Is this 3.0, or 3.5. Bearing in mind that every SRD I know of is 3.5...and I no longer have my 3.0 books.




3.5 edition. Sorry for the forshortening.

(edit, submitted by accident)



			
				Shayuri said:
			
		

> while druidic magic seems more in line with the woodcraft of elves and similar, the class has a lot of stuff that then doesn't fit like animal companions and wildshape.




It's not a million miles away. Beorn of the Beornings, for example, was able to wildshape into the form of a black bear and there are lots of anthrointelligent animals, like birds, which could be used as familiars (Thrushes, ravens etc). I think what I'll do is take magic user classes as they come and talk with the player(s) about which spells they can use and which might cause problems. My main concern is in a 3rd or 4th level magic user outclassing Gandalf  Not that he's in the game. Though he might be. Or might not. Might. Not... might


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## Necro_Kinder (Apr 3, 2008)

Dlsharrock said:
			
		

> Beorn of the Beornings, for example, was able to wildshape into the form of a black bear




Wasn't Beorn a Werebear? 

Maybe I'm just crazy. Still, I would love to play in this game. Possibly a Human paladin from Gondor. Isn't there a variant class somewhere for a nonspellcasting paladin? I'll have to look for it. If there is, I think that would fit a fine upstanding knight of Gondor.


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## Binder Fred (Apr 3, 2008)

If a full-scaled village is too much, we could always go with a logging camp (attached to Dale/laketown?). There'd be need for a smith (horseshoes, blade maintenance, nails, camp repairs, etc), woodcutters, cooks, people with very good horse-skills to handle and care for the draft horses... gaffers to ferry the logs down the river to Dale along that same river Bilbo used? A healer would be needed as well (lots of injuries in a logging camp). Speaking of Bilbo's adventures in Mirkwood, we could even put in an exotic adjunct to straight logging if we need to fit-in some more combat oriented classes, say spider-silk gathering by a "specialist(s) and assistant" that's using the camp as a base?


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## Shayuri (Apr 3, 2008)

I'd say Gandalf rates at least 3rd level spells.   He just doesn't use them very much. I seem to recall reading that using personal magic in Middle Earth caused maiar, including Istari, to weaken. In D&D terms, it sounded like it used "experience points." So every spell cast had to be weighed rather carefully. One of the benefits that the One Ring lent Sauron (again, if I recall rightly) was that it made him able to use his powers freely...one of the powers the Ring grants its bearer is a sort of permanance.

None of which is very pertinent to the question of adaptation, I guess.

One possibility would be to soup up Alchemy crafting, and perhaps allow minor alchemical herbology, to create healing poultices and so on. Another would be to use the spellcasting progression, if not necessarily spell list, of the Adept NPC class.


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## Dlsharrock (Apr 3, 2008)

Necro Kinder said:
			
		

> Wasn't Beorn a Werebear?




Well, yes. A werebear is a human/bear shapeshifter. In Middle-Earth Beorn was a Northman and Beorning chieftain of huge size and strength. As  big as a troll and with the enviable ability to turn himself into a bear (some sources say he could only do this when he was angered, so a bit like a brown hairy Incredible Hulk - other sources say he could do it at will). He was a hero to the Northmen as he guarded the Ford of Carrock (with his men) against encroaching orcs and warg. He's sometimes described as a beserker.
Here's a link to the lotr wiki - which by the way I don't endorse fully as there are quite a few inaccuracies and chronological mistakes, but in this instance the article's fairly correct.
http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Beorn



			
				Shayuri said:
			
		

> In D&D terms, it sounded like it used "experience points." So every spell cast had to be weighed rather carefully.




No wonder Gandalf was only level 3!
Maybe experience points penalties is one way to go then? Almost certainly the magic needs curbing. I'll have a look around for the threads you mentioned.


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## Shayuri (Apr 3, 2008)

Hee. Actually Necro_Kinder posted the werebear question. 

There is a PrC for barbarians in Complete Warrior that lets the wildshape into a bear when raging. It's pretty nifty. Might be appropriate, though it may be higher level than you like. Like most PrC's, the minimum qualifying level is 5.

One thing you might take a look at is the d20 Call of Cthulhu. They limited magic in that game by making spells cause temporary Constitution damage, I believe. You could heal it back with rest, but use too much magic all at once, and it could easily kill ya.


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## Dlsharrock (Apr 3, 2008)

Shayuri said:
			
		

> Hee. Actually Necro_Kinder posted the werebear question.




Sorry about that.



			
				Shayuri said:
			
		

> There is a PrC for barbarians in Complete Warrior that lets the wildshape into a bear when raging. It's pretty nifty. Might be appropriate, though it may be higher level than you like. Like most PrC's, the minimum qualifying level is 5.




Beorn wasn't around during our game period. He lived at the time of The Hobbit, which is nearly a full millenium in the future, but the PrC does fit very nicely! Could have been made with Beorn in mind.


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## Ilium (Apr 3, 2008)

Dlsharrock said:
			
		

> Beorn wasn't around during our game period. He lived at the time of The Hobbit, which is nearly a full millenium in the future...




I strongly recommend the Encyclopedia of Arda if any of the players are interested in goings-on in Middle Earth.  In particular, click on the CHRONICLE OF ARDA link in the left menu, then type in some dates in the Third Age.  I did the period from 1850 to 1900 TA and got this:

The Third Age
	1850	Death of Telumehtar Umbardacil. He is succeeded by his son, who becomes Narmacil II.
	1851	The first attacks of the Wainriders occur.
	1856	Death of Narmacil II in battle with the Wainriders. He is succeeded by his son Calimehtar.
	1864	Probable date of the birth of Arvedui son of Araphant, later King of Arthedain.
	1891	Death of Araval. He is succeeded as King of Arthedain by his son Araphant.
	1899	The Wainriders are defeated on Dagorlad by Calimehtar of Gondor.
	1900	The White Tower is built in Minas Anor by King Calimehtar.

On the actual web page, every one of those entries has at least one link to an article in the encyclopedia.  It's a great resource.


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## Dlsharrock (Apr 3, 2008)

**PLEASE READ**

*Thanks for all your character submissions/ideas so far. As mentioned in a previous post (but may have been missed in skim reading, so I'll post it here where it's a bit more prominent) I think we have enough characters to  be going on with for now. I'd like the group to be between 4 and 6 players. So far I have submissions/ideas from:*

Fenris
Ilium
Shayuri
Redclaw
Binder Fred
renau1g
Necro_Kinder

I realise this is 7, but I'm anticipating at least one no-show, maybe two or three (based on past experience, and I'll be shooting myself in the foot this time probably,  but never mind). Necro_Kinder, I'll allow you to slip through the fingers of my previous cap on characters as it wasn't a very prominent announcement and you probably missed it. Plus you sound enthusiastic and I like that 

If, after I return from holiday on 13th April, any of the above have not posted again, or gotten back to me with a character, I'll assume they're no longer interested, and if enough are no longer interested, I'll open up spaces for new applications. I think we probably have a full compliment though.

One last thing: if you sent me a character idea by email, I probably didn't get it as I only just realised my email setting is out of date. I've updated it now so please resend. Sorry 'bout that.


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## Dlsharrock (Apr 3, 2008)

Binder Fred said:
			
		

> we could always go with a logging camp




I like this idea a lot. Definitely has legs (and logs). I'd agree with placing it adjacent to Lake Esgaroth and the town of Dale as anything further south would be way open to attacks by Wainriders and the nasties of Mirkwood and probably wouldn't last long. The river in question, btw, is called River Running.


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## Redclaw (Apr 3, 2008)

Aerec, son of Shild, was born as his family left the northern reaches of the Anduin.  His father was chased from the vale by his people, unjustly accused of betraying them.  (One thought is that he was a minor member of the royal family and was trying to make peace with the dwarves by offering up some of the dragon's treasure.)

Aerec was raised in Dale (or whatever village we agree on) amid tales of the valiant horsemen of his ancestry, and was trained by his father in the fighting style and riding skill of the Eotheod.  He spends much of his time imagining a return to his rightful lands and people, although he has become attached to the people of Dale.  

I plan on making him a straight fighter and having him take mounted combat, ride-by-attack, mounted archery and weapon focus (longsword).

Question: Did you really mean to have us use starting gold rather than average for 2nd level characters?  That'll make it tough for me as far as actually having a horse goes, but I guess I can work with it.


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## Binder Fred (Apr 3, 2008)

Redclaw said:
			
		

> Aerec, son of Shild, was born as his family left the northern reaches of the Anduin.




Hey there, Redclaw,

Would Aerec be interrested in working at this little logging camp I know of? His skill with horses would make him perfect for the skidding part of the event (dragging cut trees to the landing where they are set off on the river; usually these are two person teams, one woodcutter, one man in charge of skidding). May help pay for that horse of his. 

Renau, you still interrested in that dwarf? I was thinking of taking the smith role with maybe a Broadbeam dwarf, but I can make do if you want the spot. Two dwarves seem sort of unlikely after all, unless they're related.

Binder Fred, recruiting away.


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## Dlsharrock (Apr 3, 2008)

Thanks for the character submission Redclaw!



			
				Redclaw said:
			
		

> Aerec, son of Shild, was born as his family left the northern reaches of the Anduin. His father was chased from the vale by his people, unjustly accused of betraying them. (One thought is that he was a minor member of the royal family and was trying to make peace with the dwarves by offering up some of the dragon's treasure.)




The dragon's treasure? By which you mean that of Scatha the Worm? This event doesn't take place at this point in time but is the concern of king Frum of the Eotheod, son of the current king Frumgar. It also relies on the dwarfs being present in the Grey Mountains, which they currently are not (and cannot possibly be) for which reason I can't fiddle with the chronology to make the story fit. I'm sure there could be other reasons for his father to go into exile. Self-induced exile for some reason or another may put the Eotheod in a better light in Aerec's eyes.

Some notes regarding the Eotheod would be useful at this point I feel, in order to build up your background or give you some knowledge of the race from which your character sprang.

Boring bit: In the official Middle-Earth chronology, the Eotheod (actually Éothéod and that's the last time I use accents in this game, it could get out of hand  ) are the ancestors of the horse masters of Rohan and they don't move into the Vale of Anduin until *after* the fall of Angmar, which hasn't happened yet. However, I have included them in our period (and thus risk the wrath of purists) because I think the Rohirrim are just too cool to ignore as a race and I wanted them, or at least their forerunners, to play a prominent part in our setting. As they don't play any part in the history of Angmar or Arnor I didn't see a problem with it.

The reason I didn't just include Rohan is because Rohan simply can't exist yet. The Stewards of Gondor don't seek the alliance of the Eotheod until they're desperate, and the Plains of Calenardhon have only recently been diminished as part of the Gondor Realm (they are still within Gondor's borders, but a plague has wiped out most of the inhabitants), so they won't be given to the Eotheod for services rendered for quite some time yet. The kings of Gondor are too proud to call for help from Anduin. Indeed their pride will eventually be their downfall, but that's another story. 

In any case, the ancestors of the Rohirrim were known as the Éothéod and were given the province of Calenardhon by Gondor _after _the *Battle of the Field of Celebrant*. That battle won't occur for many hundreds of years and therefore terms like _Riddermark_, the _Westfold_, and so on are not yet known to the Eotheod, nor are the well known Rohan domains like Helms Deep or Dunharrow (though these places do exist). 

The Eotheod as a settled race live in the Vale between the rivers _Langwell_ and _Greylin_ at the source of the _Anduin_. They live in a small town called _Framsburg _under their king _Frumgar _and often travel on horseback along the shore of Anduin and the fringe of Mirkwood. They have a long standing connection with Gondor (trade and also ancestry) and have even been seen as far afield as Pelagir. They are excellent riders and are therefore capable of travelling great distances compared with the other races of Middle-Earth.



			
				Redclaw said:
			
		

> Aerec was raised in Dale (or whatever village we agree on) amid tales of the valiant horsemen of his ancestry, and was trained by his father in the fighting style and riding skill of the Eotheod. He spends much of his time imagining a return to his rightful lands and people, although he has become attached to the people of Dale.




Nice. And his emblem (and his father's emblem) is the white horse of the Eotheod, which he probably holds dear (attached). The white horse has always represented the Eotheod. It symbolises Felarof, Lord of the Mearas, in his evergreen field. The Mearas are a legendary horse long sought by the Eotheod in the lands of Middle-Earth as maiar spirits in horse form. It is said only the kings and princes of Men can ride the Mearas who will throw from their backs all lesser Men.



			
				Redclaw said:
			
		

> Question: Did you really mean to have us use starting gold rather than average for 2nd level characters? That'll make it tough for me as far as actually having a horse goes, but I guess I can work with it.




The starting gold is just to equip with the basics. I usually redress any common sense problems when I know what the character is. For a horsemaster, for example, a horse is probably a good idea  but not necessarily something he needs to purchase given the likely content of his father's stables  This is just my loose way of setting up characters though. If it's a problem for other players or  gives rise to confusion then I see no problem with using the average for 2nd level characters.


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## Redclaw (Apr 3, 2008)

Sorry about that.  I thought I had put the timeline together, but I guess I was still a bit off.  Since you had the Eotheod at the northern end of the Anduin I figured it was likely after Frumgar's reign, and therefore probably after Scatha's death and the resulting promblems.  Since that's not the case I'll come up with some other reason for Shild's exile/presence in Dale.  I want to keep Aerec interested in the Eotheod, and even have him romanticize them a little, but still have a reason for he and his father not to rejoin them.  

Maybe Aerec's mother is a woman of Dale whom Shild met by chance near the border of the two lands.  He was forced to choose between his people and his love.  While he has willingly settled down to create a life in Dale he can't help fostering the love of adventure and horsecraft that he sees in his son.

Don't worry about setting me straight on chronology.  I fear that I'm just not as well read on the history of Middle-Earth as I should be.  I know the big four, but my knowledge doesn't go far beyond them.  I'm happy to stay true to the time you've selected, I just need help getting the details straight.


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## Dlsharrock (Apr 4, 2008)

> Sorry about that.




Absolutely no reason to apologise. I probably confused you by setting the Eotheod there in the first place. By rights they should be further northwest at this point anyway.

With regard to chronology, and this kind of applies across the board for all players or visitors who choose to post in this thread, I intend to act as both GM/moderator and walking encyclopedia (to the best of my ability) during the character creation process and, to a lesser extent, during gameplay. I'm not the last word with all of Arda history, but  this particular period I've researched *very *thoroughly before setting the game in order to (hopefully) give players a genuine exploration of Middle-Earth circa TA 1874.

Any chronological corrections I make are either FYI (to help with character creation process) or my own rambling. It's not my intention to be a pain in the ass pedant about the chronology and don't intend to spend the whole game banging on about it. Where a PC refers to a place that doesn't exist yet (if Aerec was wandering with his friends along the shores of Anduin and waxed lyrical on the beauty of Meduseld at this time of year, for example, when such a place doesn't yet exist) I'd correct you for purposes of keeping everyone abreast of what does or doesn't exist, has or hasn't happened and so forth. A sort of piecemeal introduction to the setting which will eventually build up to give you a sound idea of the world around your character.



> Don't worry about setting me straight on chronology. I fear that I'm just not as well read on the history of Middle-Earth as I should be. I know the big four, but my knowledge doesn't go far beyond them. I'm happy to stay true to the time you've selected, I just need help getting the details straight.




As I mentioned in my first post, knowledge of the chronology isn't a requirement at all. I'm just happy to have a willing audience to whom I can blather on about Lord of the Rings history and who isn't my girlfriend. I think she's quite glad too


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## renau1g (Apr 4, 2008)

Binder Fred said:
			
		

> Renau, you still interrested in that dwarf? I was thinking of taking the smith role with maybe a Broadbeam dwarf, but I can make do if you want the spot. Two dwarves seem sort of unlikely after all, unless they're related.
> 
> Binder Fred, recruiting away.




I'll take the human, I've got a dwarf in another game going so I don't mind taking the human. I'll work up a barbarian story ending up at a logging camp, probably his great strength would be beneficial.


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## Binder Fred (Apr 4, 2008)

renau1g said:
			
		

> I'll take the human, I've got a dwarf in another game going so I don't mind taking the human.



Thanks! Seems I *was* rather looking forward to playing this guy after all.  



			
				renau1g said:
			
		

> I'll work up a barbarian story ending up at a logging camp, probably his great strength would be beneficial.



Hehe. Maybe he can skid without horses?

Forgot to mention this to *Redclaw* before, but the most dangerous, and therefore best paying jobs, are no doubt with the draftmen, following the logs down the river and stepping into the thick of things when/if they get stuck. Lots of agility and daring-do involved. Usually they unclog it with their cant hooks, but when it's really tight the modern version used to toss-in a stick of dynamite or three. Don't know if there would be a Middle-earth equivalent besides getting the horses down and pulling with ropes/chains.... Dave?

While I'm at it, I'm also wondering about the elven view re human logging of the woods. Could the elves and the Dale people have struck some sort of bargain or is it all under the table right now? Maybe we could have the equivalent of the modern-day forestry engineer marking the trees to be felled beforehand, an elf envoy who does or does not take his job too seriously (For some reason I see him planting clues and poems about the day's target instead of marking them with a clear X . What's your thoughts on this, *Shayuri*? Want to come-in on the logging front? It's the wave of the future/past/alternate history of the planet!

Binder Fred, working on it.


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## Shayuri (Apr 4, 2008)

An excellent question, Binder.

What are your thoughts, GM? I was thinking at first of a sort of "refugee" from the corrupting influence of Mirkwood, but if there are elves that deal with the interloping outsiders...I mean, good men and women of Dale to make sure they don't overstep the bounds of common sense and decency then I could definitely take that part. I suspect I would enjoy finding little ways to remind them that if the forest is metaphorically a lake...they are amphibians, and I am a fish.


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## Necro_Kinder (Apr 4, 2008)

Hey thanks, yeah I guess I missed the one about the cap...

Before I make up a character I was wondering if the Complete Warrior variant paladin class would be ok. He still keeps his mount, but loses his spells for a couple supernatural abilities. If you don't have the book lemme know and I'll write up the changes.

EDIT: How bout a Knight of Gondor? Using the Knight class from PHB2?


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## Dlsharrock (Apr 4, 2008)

renau1g said:
			
		

> I'll take the human, I've got a dwarf in another game going so I don't mind taking the human. I'll work up a barbarian story ending up at a logging camp, probably his great strength would be beneficial.




By which you mean a wandering Beorning, or a disenfranchised oaf from Rhun? (by oaf I'm painting the picture of a luggish type human of Conanish type, probably fleeing the destruction of his small-village settlement and the Wainriders in Rhun)? The only _true _barbarians in the Middle-Earth sense within this district are the Vikingish chariot-driving Wainriders. Other barbarian races include the Mumakil riding Southron (featured in the Battle of Pelennor Fields when the elephant-like Mumakil decimated Theoden's riders) or Haradrim as Gondor Men call them, and also the Variags of Khand to the southeast of Mordor. There are also Black Numenors and Corsairs in the far south of Umbar, survivors of the destruction of Numenor who sailed to the city port of Umbar at the end of the Second Age with the intention of contesting Sauron, but who fell under his spell, as Men were wont to do in those days (edit: and, I forgot to add, the rebellious Gondor Men of the kin-strife in the 14th century who were throne out of the Kingdom and who subsequently seized control of Umbar, though I never really considered them barbarians). That's the barbarians in a nutshell. None of them will be found as travelling individuals, as they are collectively under the Dark Lord's sway. Besides which they are all horribly evil and I'd prefer neutral or goodly characters.

I suppose the Forodwaith of the far north would be classed as barbarians by your average Dunedain, though in my own head I always had them down as a clever and goodly people. 



			
				Necro_Kinder said:
			
		

> How bout a Knight of Gondor? Using the Knight class from PHB2?




Certainly seems to fit the mould, and then you'd get to wear lots of lovely plate. Working up a background will be challenging though. The knights of Gondor are sworn not simply by duty but by every ounce of their being to protect the lands of their fathers, ie Gondor. Gondor itself is currently under threat from the Wainriders who encroach daily on its territory, so a knight might not be spared to go a-travelling. On the other hand... hm.



			
				Shayuri said:
			
		

> I suspect I would enjoy finding little ways to remind them that if the forest is metaphorically a lake...they are amphibians, and I am a fish.




An inspired idea Binder_Fred/Shayuri. Solves the problem of deforesting the elves' natural habitat, which I was going to bring up at some point. I'm also liking the true-to-form elfyness of this emerging character. Mischievious, playful, carefree despite the darkness of the world. Bound to drive his Middle-Men logging associates up the wall.


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## Ilium (Apr 4, 2008)

I'm going to bow out of this one, after all.  I've gotten myself in trouble before by being in too many games, so at this time I think I'll just limit myself to one.

Thanks.


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## Dlsharrock (Apr 4, 2008)

Thanks for letting us know Ilium

And then there were 6. 
I'd still prefer between 4 and 6 players, so still no openings at this point for new characters, though we've not had any sound from the Fenris camp as yet so it may be worth checking back over the course of next week.

But now I must away to the real Misty Mountains of Austria where I intend to slay orcs, battle balrogs and maybe do a bit of skiing.

I'll be back on the 13th April. In the meantime please continue to discuss the starting point for this game and character ideas. I'll devour the results when I return, put in my twopenny's worth then hopefully start the game!


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## Binder Fred (Apr 4, 2008)

Dlsharrock said:
			
		

> Certainly seems to fit the mould, and then you'd get to wear lots of lovely plate. Working up a background will be challenging though.



Hey there. Some thoughts for getting him involved with the camp :

- Business with one of the loggers  : A family emergency? A prophecy about one of them? the anounce of a death and inheritance/return to good grace? If the begining adventure concerns Mirkwood, you do have the problem of keeping him in the region after he finds the guy though, unless the prophecy says something about that...

- Business in the woods  : hot pursuit of hostiles/spies leads to closer investigation? Lost/attacked on his way to Y while guarding X person/thing/message which must be recovered (think of Ara+lego+Gimli's run after the captured hobbits)? He's 2nd level at this point, so maybe he's a squire still? Easier to move those about and maybe they have some sort of Great Test for knight candidates with borderline credential (either of blood or of (inherited) honor)? Or maybe undercover work is required, for there are spies in Gondor/indications the ennemy has magical spying abilities/unknown intelligence and/or alliances (elves?) in the target region?

- Dishonor : your character has been banished from the knights (unjustly? enraged knights at his tail eager to execute him?) and seeks to redeem himself/get revenge. Maybe a bit too heavy for a begining character, but if you want your guy to be dark and broody, this is the way to go. 

"Binder Fred, for the sin of thinking out loud we condemn you to the pit".


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## Necro_Kinder (Apr 5, 2008)

Dlsharrock said:
			
		

> Certainly seems to fit the mould, and then you'd get to wear lots of lovely plate. Working up a background will be challenging though. The knights of Gondor are sworn not simply by duty but by every ounce of their being to protect the lands of their fathers, ie Gondor. Gondor itself is currently under threat from the Wainriders who encroach daily on its territory, so a knight might not be spared to go a-travelling. On the other hand... hm.





I was thinking perhaps he could be more of a diplomat, a Knight sent to find allies and whatnot to help protect Gondor. That would explain his distance from home, and his title. The problem with that is Diplomacy is not on the Knight's skill list. Guess he may not be a very good diplomat, though he probably would have a high-ish charisma.

EDIT: Sorry Fred, somehow I missed your post. Perhaps we can combine ideas and say he mayhaps is a diplomat trying to enlst the help of the Mirkwood elves to defend Gondor, and then due to his Lawful Goodness he stays and helps out with whatever is going on.


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## Fenris (Apr 5, 2008)

Dlsharrock said:
			
		

> Thanks for letting us know Ilium
> 
> And then there were 6.
> I'd still prefer between 4 and 6 players, so still no openings at this point for new characters, though we've not had any sound from the Fenris camp as yet so it may be worth checking back over the course of next week.




The Fenris camp is still pondering. We seem to have the warrior angle quite well covered and I am trying to reconcile d20 Classes with Tolkien a bit to find a character I like that doesn't break  Middle Earth to my sensibilities.


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## Binder Fred (Apr 5, 2008)

Necro_Kinder said:
			
		

> I was thinking perhaps he could be more of a diplomat, a Knight sent to find allies and whatnot to help protect Gondor. That would explain his distance from home, and his title. The problem with that is Diplomacy is not on the Knight's skill list. Guess he may not be a very good diplomat, though he probably would have a high-ish charisma.



If you think you're forcing your concept, you could always say he is/was (one of?) the escort of the guy Gondor actually sent? Guy gets killed/wounded/kidnapped on the way and your character feels duty bound/guilt ridden into taking on the mission as his own? It's sort of thin as a link to the rest of us though : we're talking a "stay one night on the way" or a "lost in the woods" initial reason and then no clear motive for either party to associate with each other long term that I can see...

If this is a preliminary contact between the two parties, the envoy might just be a sealed message to the elven king, carried by an actual knight as a sign of great honor. Message gets stolen or lost, he chasses clues/vague indications all over, the possibilities are endless.  Might combine that with the above and say he's chasing something of value taken when the ambasador was hit (ambassadorial seal maybe?).

Binder Fred, stealthy as ever. 

EDIT: Speaking of, did you see my 04-03 post, *Redclaw* ? Do you think you can fit your character into the logging context?


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## Binder Fred (Apr 6, 2008)

Fenris said:
			
		

> The Fenris camp is still pondering. We seem to have the warrior angle quite well covered and I am trying to reconcile d20 Classes with Tolkien a bit to find a character I like that doesn't break  Middle Earth to my sensibilities.



Maybe a herbalist healer? You could take a spell-casting level or two even, provided the spells are presented as steming from his/her remedies or knowledge and not from actual *magic*. Say you put a 1 minute or more "casting time" on all your "spells", representing the time to actually bind the wound with your herbal poultice /smear on the bear grease (resistance to cold)/chew your hunger-calming root cud, etc. Hit points are mostly luck+determination+calm spirits anyway.

Or how about a peasant-bard? He's a logger  -- Job doesn't necessarely have to follow class (I could very well see a Fierce Barbarian Cook, by the way *Renau* . Say he's had no formal training as such but the guy sure can tell a mean story around the dorm at night, his voice ain't pretty (smoky/broken/rough?) but it can sure stir the heart of folks like you and me brother, talks at length with any traveller he can lay his hands on, is an all around fantastic fellow to have around the camp, etc, etc.

Binder Fred, still in the storm.

P.S. I do plan to take a bit of healing with my dwarven smith by the way. It'll be of the splint-bandage-sow with rough thread-pat on the back and off you go variety. Colds or prolonged care need not apply.


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## Shayuri (Apr 6, 2008)

What do you think the relations overall between men and elves of Mirkwood would be? Would the job of babysitting the loggers be regarded as something honorable, as a sort of embassy to another race, and perhaps entertaining? Or would it be viewed as a distasteful thing; a necessary evil and something most elves would see as being akin to jury duty. Someone's gotta do it, as long as it's not -me-.

Thoughts?


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## Redclaw (Apr 6, 2008)

Shayuri said:
			
		

> What do you think the relations overall between men and elves of Mirkwood would be? Would the job of babysitting the loggers be regarded as something honorable, as a sort of embassy to another race, and perhaps entertaining? Or would it be viewed as a distasteful thing; a necessary evil and something most elves would see as being akin to jury duty. Someone's gotta do it, as long as it's not -me-.



Personally, I would most easily see the elves viewing the humans with distrust and greeting them with threats if they break whatever rules the elves set before them.  I could see some sort of limit or border being put on their logging, and an elf or two assigned to keep an eye on them.  Just my two cents.



			
				Binder_Fred said:
			
		

> EDIT: Speaking of, did you see my 04-03 post, Redclaw ? Do you think you can fit your character into the logging context?



I did, and I see no problem with that connection.  He wouldn't want to use his fine Eotheod stallion for such a task, but could easily have a draft horse or two to use.  He'd be spending his time daydreaming about riding into battle beside his cousins, however.    

On a different note, have any of you played the Lord of the Rings Online MMORPG?  It dealt with the magic question in a slightly different way, and one that seems in tune with where 4E is going.  Basically the idea was that hit points are a combination of actual wounds mixed with morale and will to fight.  Thus the 'healing' class is actually the equivalent of the bard, as their music can restore some morale.  That backs up Binder_Fred's suggestion fo the bard as a solid choice, spellcaster-wise, and could justify the bard's ability to cast CLW, etc.  Just a thought.


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## Shayuri (Apr 6, 2008)

Yar, actually, that's where I'm going with it.   I'm the elf assigned to keep an eye on the humans. I'm just trying to decide, for story purposes, if that's a "Yay! I'm important enough to qualify for this!" job or a "Damn, who did you cheese off?" job.


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## renau1g (Apr 7, 2008)

Dlsharrock said:
			
		

> By which you mean a wandering Beorning, or a disenfranchised oaf from Rhun? (by oaf I'm painting the picture of a luggish type human of Conanish type, probably fleeing the destruction of his small-village settlement and the Wainriders in Rhun)? The only _true _barbarians in the Middle-Earth sense within this district are the Vikingish chariot-driving Wainriders. Other barbarian races include the Mumakil riding Southron (featured in the Battle of Pelennor Fields when the elephant-like Mumakil decimated Theoden's riders) or Haradrim as Gondor Men call them, and also the Variags of Khand to the southeast of Mordor. There are also Black Numenors and Corsairs in the far south of Umbar, survivors of the destruction of Numenor who sailed to the city port of Umbar at the end of the Second Age with the intention of contesting Sauron, but who fell under his spell, as Men were wont to do in those days (edit: and, I forgot to add, the rebellious Gondor Men of the kin-strife in the 14th century who were throne out of the Kingdom and who subsequently seized control of Umbar, though I never really considered them barbarians). That's the barbarians in a nutshell. None of them will be found as travelling individuals, as they are collectively under the Dark Lord's sway. Besides which they are all horribly evil and I'd prefer neutral or goodly characters.
> 
> I suppose the Forodwaith of the far north would be classed as barbarians by your average Dunedain, though in my own head I always had them down as a clever and goodly people.




My thoughts are leaning towards the second consideration of the wandering oaf. My concept for a barbarian isn't the traditional one of living in a tribe, hunting elk or caribou, etc., but rather someone who hasn't been formally trained with weapons, and instead relies more on his strength over skill. I like the idea of fleeing the destruction of a villiage. I'm thinking that he could be overcome with grief as his family and friends were decimated by 
the Wainriders and fell into a more savage state (I would liken it to The Hunter that Drizzt becomes in the Dark Elf Trilogy). Maybe a group of them were sent out to hunt for people escaping the initial destruction and my PC would ambush them to attain revenge after avoiding their capture for weeks. After this he'd wake up from his state and want to get far away from his location. He'd wake up every night from a nightmare, seeing his family being killed by the invaders and relive that moment. Eventually, he'd turn to the bottle to cope with his feelings. He'd do odd jobs as he travelled from place to place, staying just long enough to wear out his welcome. After a few years of this, he found himself at a logging camp...


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## Binder Fred (Apr 7, 2008)

renau1g said:
			
		

> Eventually, he'd turn to the bottle to cope with his feelings. He'd do odd jobs as he travelled from place to place, staying just long enough to wear out his welcome. After a few years of this, he found himself at a logging camp...



Hey there *Renau*.

Not the most reliable of fellows, I take it.  You're still going for a logger spot? If you're character is on the bottle, he might prefer a job that affords more opportunities to - uh - indulge, so to speak, such as the aformentioned adventure in cookery or - why not -  camp helper (in charge of getting water, cutting firewood, scouting out the next skid road and all the other little jobs around the camp (probably including a little fishing/hunting on the side to spice up the menu))?

If you're still in the logging trade, I was sort of thinking my character could be the foreman of the place (a smith is fairly centraly-located all the time) with you as my second in command/go to person out in the field, so to speak. Obviously that doesn't work if he's barely fonctional... or is he the hyper-competent type for a while and then there's the plunge (and then back up and then back down and then...)? That could work.

Let me know,
Binder Fred, who's going for a Track-less ranger.


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## renau1g (Apr 7, 2008)

I was hoping that maybe another character could help pull him from the brink. He wouldn't be soused all the time more like the roller-coaster up & down. I like the cook idea... wouldn't of thought it myself, but it might be an interesting twist.


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## Necro_Kinder (Apr 7, 2008)

What are we doing for starting gold? Are we using just the random starting gold for our class rolled on Invisible castle? I thought that's what was stated earlier, but that does make it hard for me to afford a horse, and it would be odd for a brand new knight / squire to walk all the way to Mirkwood from Gondor.


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## Shayuri (Apr 7, 2008)

As I understand it, we're using starting gold, and the GM will spot us on things we'd logically possess but can't afford...like horses and so on.

No one has anything to say or suggest on my questions? Doh!


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## Binder Fred (Apr 8, 2008)

Shayuri said:
			
		

> No one has anything to say or suggest on my questions? Doh!



I *do* have a few thoughts actually (who would have guessed, right . Give me 24 and I might even have the time to type them up.

Binder Fred, so busy it hu-rts. <"Right," said Fred.>


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## renau1g (Apr 8, 2008)

My thoughts are it kind of depends on how the elven relations are at this point (my knowledge of this time isn't terribly strong), but at least it always seemed that the elves were cool towards humans (at best) on an everyday diplomacy basis. I would lean towards the cheesing off feeling, unless you're a real young elf and maybe you're first assignment, which you might be feeling proud of and not be upset even if it's not the most glamourous position.


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## Binder Fred (Apr 12, 2008)

I thought I was busy before :looks like I was wrong. Got to love those 14-hour days. 

Anyways, back to it : what's the progress since last we spoke (so to speak)? We had :

- One dwarven smith/foreman played by yours truly
- One barbarian/cook on the sauce played by Renau1g
- One elven scout/forest engineer played by Shayuri
- One "future" rider of Rohan/skidder driver played by Redclaw (any thought on his relationship with the other three working at the camp? Why he's there if his family is rich enough to afford (to raise?) battle horses) and finaly 
- One gondorian knight played by Necro Kinder (you game for the "chasing vague indications" scenario or did you go another way?)

Not to forget Fenris, of course, the Undecided. 


			
				renau1g said:
			
		

> I was hoping that maybe another character could help pull him from the brink. He wouldn't be soused all the time more like the roller-coaster up & down.



If he needs an ear, my character is your guy. He'll even keep your "in case of emergency but never again" bottle. Your character trying to get it back by any means available might be part of their daily ritual... What do you say? 



			
				Shayuri said:
			
		

> What do you think the relations overall between men and elves of Mirkwood would be? Would the job of babysitting the loggers be regarded as something honorable, as a sort of embassy to another race, and perhaps entertaining? Or would it be viewed as a distasteful thing; a necessary evil and something most elves would see as being akin to jury duty.



As I see it elves of the wood would neither reguard the position highly nor spit on it. Rather they'd mostly see it as a (odd?) passtime only impacting their lives indirectly... Unless one of them has put some of his/her reputation on the line with his/her backing of this project? One of the (not so?) nobles maybe (the scout himself? His patron?), using a "human cooperation"/"riches from outside" platform to get (her faction?) ahead in the great socio-political dance? *Then* the position becomes one that people want or hate or manoeuvre to get the most competent/most likely to fail elf in that perticular spot. The platform could have been behind the whole cooperation deal from the very begining or it might have started small, for another reason altogether (one personnal/perticular to the scout?) before one of the (relatively) big decided to back or oppose the project and gotten things spinning faster and harder than said scout first anticipated. 

That said I don't have that sharp a grasp of the Tolkien elves psyche (as differentiate from humans). There seems to be a continuum of elven attitudes, from the magicaly light singers in Elron's valley to the blander Legolas (my own opinion, of course), not to forget the queen Galadriel. Whatever motives lie behind, it's certain that the assignement will provide 1) time away from elven culture (does he wish to avoid someone/some other callings?), 2) contact with non-elves/a perticular person (fallen for a human girl/boy/rugged dwarven smith?  and 3) an opportunity to exert power/influence/make a difference/cause mischief. Reach in with both hands, my friend.

Binder Fred, good to be back.


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## Shayuri (Apr 12, 2008)

Good to have you back.

Yeah, I'm basically just farming ideas at this stage. I have notions of my own, but I wanted to see what, if any, unique Tolkien spins there were. I'm familiar with Middle Earth, but not massively so... I recall from The Hobbit that the elves of Mirkwood were pretty xenophobic/isolationist...though they did trade down the river...

I suspect my elf's position, from the elf perspective, is as much to keep an eye on the humans and make sure they're not up to something awful as it is to help guide their woodcutting. As well as keep stray humans from wandering into the woods where other elves might have to deal with them


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## Binder Fred (Apr 12, 2008)

Ahh <nods head>, a babbysitting job.


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## Shayuri (Apr 12, 2008)

Sort of! But more like, "keep the babbys out of our hair." The focus is less on keeping the humans safe, than in keeping them in line. 

Though that's just the official job description. My character's take on it needn't be so blatantly racist.


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## Redclaw (Apr 12, 2008)

Binder_Fred said:
			
		

> - One "future" rider of Rohan/skidder driver played by Redclaw (any thought on his relationship with the other three working at the camp? Why he's there if his family is rich enough to afford (to raise?) battle horses)




Well, going with the idea that his father is of the Eotheod, and his mother is a settled, civilized daughter of Dale, and that his father has been quietly encouraging his combat training and love of the open plains, I could easily see his mother insisting that he find something else to occupy his time, like a job.  He would, of course, be spending his time dreaming of a return to his father's people, but his love and respect for his mother would push him to do his best as part of the logging team, for the time being.


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## Fenris (Apr 12, 2008)

Binder Fred said:
			
		

> Not to forget Fenris, of course, the Undecided.




The Undecided is much closer, but is waiting the return of our Fearless leader so he can answer a long email.


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## Binder Fred (Apr 13, 2008)

Redclaw said:
			
		

> his father has been quietly encouraging his combat training and love of the open plains, I could easily see his mother insisting that he find something else to occupy his time, like a job.



IDEA: His mother's family could be the owners/friends of the owners of the camp (amongst other things).They do sound fairly rich (no reflexion on his father's decision to come live in Dale, of course . She'd want her son to follow in the business, to get him involved in the trade; besides, "His (legendary/builder of the family fortune) Grandad did the very same at his age"! Aerec goes for his own reasons, 'o course (love of horses, chance to get away, fascination with the forest depths/the elves (get to meet one fairly close on *this* job ). 

Actually, have you considered making him a ranger? Just seems to fit for some reason.
_
Binder Fred_, who'se character is getting a dog. A big yellow lab, I think.


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## Redclaw (Apr 13, 2008)

I usually like rangers, but it doesn't fit my image of the ancestors of the Riders of Rohan.  Aragorn was the ranger, not Eomer.


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## Dlsharrock (Apr 13, 2008)

*Welcome to the world's longest post. Happy reading!*

While I was on holiday I read The Hobbit again in order to remind myself of the precise setting (ie Esgaroth). Some revelations follow 

Before I embark on comments re. posts, I'd like to alter my suggestion for a starting location as the town of Dale and shift it to Lake Town (still a logging camp, but one attached to the latter and not the former). I realise now that Dale is in the very shadow of Erebor, the Lonely Mountain, possibly a terraced town, one carved into the rock in much the same fashion as Minas Tirrith. The Lake of Esgaroth, otherwise known as the Long Lake, is a good half day's march south, so impractical for a logging camp of any substance.

Lake Town is much better suited to a logging interest as it's closer to the forest. Here's an earmarked passage from The Hobbit (set more than 1000 years hence from our period. Events of our game will be as legend to the folks who inhabit the location described here):



			
				J R R Tolkien said:
			
		

> ...The sun had set when, turning with another sweep towards the East, the forest river rushed into the Long Lake. There it had a wide mouth with stony clifflike gates at either side whose feet were piled with shingles. The Long Lake! Bilbo had never imagined that any water that was not the sea could look so big. It was so wide that the opposite shores looke small and far, but it was so long that its northerly end, which pointed towards the Mountain, could not be seen at all. Only from the map did Bilbo know that away up there, where the stars of the Wain were already twinkling, the Running River came down into the lake from Dale and with the Forest River filled with deep waters what must have once been a great deep rocky valley. At the southern end the double waters poured out again over high waterfalls and ran away hurriedly to unknown lands. In the still evening air the noise of the falls could be heard like a distant roar.
> Not far from the mouth of the Forest River was the strange town he heard the elves speak of in the king's cellars. It was not built on the shore, though there were a few  huts and buildings there, but right out on the surface of the lake, protected from  the swirld of the entering river by a promontory of rock which formed a calm bay. A great bridge made of wood ran out to where, on huge piles made of forest trees, was built a busy wooden town, not a town of elves but of Men who still dared to dwell here under the shadow of the distant dragon-mountain. They still throve on the trade that came up the great river from the South and was carted past the falls to their town; but in the great days of old, when Dale in the North was rich and prosperous, they had been wealthy and powerful and there had been fleets of boats on the waters, and some were filled with gold and some with warriors in armour and there had been wars and deeds which were now only a legend. The rotting piles of a greater town could still be seen along the shores when the waters sank in drought.




So, in our time, Lake Town could be fairly large and well inhabited, but on the verge of decline. Dire times in Mirkwood have choked the thriving trade mentioned above. The town of Dale is still fairly prosperous but also in decline and guards with great suspicion all its interests in Lake Town (armoured Dale warriors swagger hither and thither and probably a Dale bursar, controlling monetary interests and the soldiers).

The only likely trade at this time would be between the Elves and the Men of Dale and the Men of the Sea of Rhun respectively (with possible additional imports from villages and settlements on the shore of the River Running far to the south. 

Imports from South Rhovanion and Rhun come on longships with flat decks capable of housing many barrels, casks and chests. Such ships would moor in a small port at the foot of the southern waterfall, rarely picking up, almost always depositing. There'd be some kind of wooden lift system, or maybe a long winding path/staircase for carrying payloads up to the shore of Esgaroth and the bridge into Lake Town. 

Visits from the longships are becoming increasingly rare as Wainrider scouting parties suffocate settlements on the shore of the River Running or raid and steal from longships en-route. What goods do make it through would include exotic wines and spirits from the Dorwinian people of Rhun, textiles and food from farming communities. The scarcity of this latter import (caused by the pillaging and razing of long established farmsteads in the southeast) would probably be causing most concern for the Men of the Long Lake, though I'd assume there are a few local farms struggling to take up the shortfall, and the Elves will always trade food (game) for Dorwinian alcohol.

Standing sentinel over all this is the great and jagged tooth of the Lonely Mountain, Erebor, with its grey shadowed flanks and snow-capped peak. The dragon Smaug is yet to make Erebor his home, and the lower slopes are still well forested. Nor are the dwarfs of Durin's line in residence at this time. The mountain is just a mountain.

I don't know if I like the grand disaster idea suggested in Fred's original post, but certainly a decline in quality of life and the closure of the logging camp might give the group a reason to set out in search of alternative earnings.

*Comments on Posts:*

OK, here's what we seem to have developing so far. Kick me if I missed anything:

A logging camp on the shore of the Long Lake, or maybe part of the wooden pile comprising Lake Town (seems more likely as you'd have the added bonus of the town's defenses) or maybe nowhere near the Long Lake and instead somewhere on  the shore of the river, marking an entirely new settlement which, we can assume, was wiped off the map by Smaug or Wainriders at the relevant point in Middle-Earth history. (thoughts?)

--Head Smith at the logging camp (taking care of horseshoes, blades, nails, camp repairs etal) is Fred_Binder's character, a dwarven smith ?? or a woodsman of crushed stature, oft mistaken for a dwarf ??

--Shayuri's character is a Sindar Elf under King Thranduil (scout/ranger- not sure about resident healer, I don't think the Elves would care so much for the health of the Men and he certainly wouldn't need the payment) and has been charged with keeping a watchful eye on activities in the logging camp. I daresay he also has a few other duties, like managing trade links and diplomacy with the lords of Lake Town. 

--Redclaw's character is Aerec, son of Shild, an Eotheod horsemaster born as his family were forced from the northern reaches of the Vale of Anduin. In the logging camp he manages the horses, though he uses the camp's resident shire horses and not his own magnificent steed (sired by his own father's horse, itself a true Vale pedigree I daresay). He probably works in return for use of the logging camp's stables and earns a meagre wage (if any. I'd actually suggest all workers, bar Shayuri's elf, work for rations, living quarters and access to tools/stables/that sort of thing since this is a community in decline and living near the fringe).

--With his mightily hewn arms and oaken legs, Renau1g's character, a large Rhovanian Man from the south, a refugee of the Wainrider oppression and on the run not only from the chariot riding barbarians of Rhun but from the terrors of his past, would be an ideal candidate for any donkey work around the logging camp. Given his stature, he'd make a good logger, but his penchant for alcohol makes him too unreliable for important work and he is thusly reduced to the tasks of general dogsbody and cook.

--Necro_Kinder's character may be an exiled or wandering knight of Gondor. I'm still fuzzy on this one and he needs a good background reason for being in Esgaroth, a long long way from Gondor. I suspect we may have our first casualty of Middle-Earth's strangle-hold restrictions. I did draw up an (I thought rather clever) idea involving the honour guard of a palantiri (based on my own extractions about palantiri from suggestions in Tolkien's work) which I emailed to you Necro_Kinder, but I guess it wasn't of interest?? Certainly there'd be no Gondor diplomats in Lake Town or Dale seeking alliance with Men whose Dundedain roots are  questionable. Some interesting suggestions have been put forward though. Any of these interest you Necro_Kinder?

--Fenris has put forward an idea in an email. An idea in the process of evolution, and emailed so I guess secret for now.



			
				Shayuri said:
			
		

> What do you think the relations overall between men and elves of Mirkwood would be? Would the job of babysitting the loggers be regarded as something honorable, as a sort of embassy to another race, and perhaps entertaining? Or would it be viewed as a distasteful thing; a necessary evil and something most elves would see as being akin to jury duty.




At the risk of repeating in a round-about way what Fred already wrote, the Elves of Mirkwood are distrustful of Men and don't really like them very much. They have even less respect for dwarfs whom they are quick to judge based on previous history. Working so closely with Men would be considered a pretty awful job by the average Sindar, and yes, a necessary evil as the Elven king of Mirkwood, Thranduil, would surely rely on spies to keep abreast of activity in Esgaroth. But I think, as with Legolas in LotR (the son of Thranduil, after all!), an Elf who lives outside the influence of Mirkwood would be less inclined to prejudice and may even find the ways of Men amusing- in the same way a cat finds a ball of lint amusing  He'd still be somewhat distrustful of Dwarves, but Tolkien's Elves have a great capacity for magnamity and are, essentially, a race who love fun (at other peoples' expense), laughter (at the stature of dwarfs) and song (about the mishaps of Men and the clumsiness of dwarfs) above all else. And in the job of go-between at Lake Town I think a Mirkwood Elf would find plenty of opportunities for amusement 

To put personality into context: Elves were abroad long before Men or Dwarves and are, essentially, the beloved of gods, placed on the Earth as things of beauty and cherished by their creators to such an extent that the creators invited them to share the hallowed halls of the Undying Lands. Some Elves stem from ancestry whose decisions were questionable, and some Elves view the other races with what looks, at face value, like prejudice, but this is merely the experience of memory. Because Elves are immortal, they have seen and experienced the things Men and Dwarfs hear only in their songs and stories. And Men and Dwarfs have done some seriously terrible things. Elves, on the other hand, are mischievious and territorial at their worst (ownership of land, and it seems, ownership of treasure), but have never strayed to outright evil. Corruption and betrayal is not in their hearts, but they remember it in the hearts of other races and, along with the perils of love, this has been the chief cause of great pain for Elves through the ages. Whether this is inspiration or not I don't know, but I think playing an Elven character in the world of Middle-Earth is a challenge and one you should enjoy making your own. http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Elf - may be a good place to start.



			
				Necro_Kinder said:
			
		

> What are we doing for starting gold?




I already addressed this. Starting gold and any common sense possessions I'll look at based on the character. I mentioned before that your character would have access to his father's stables, a stud of the Eotheod and therefore a well bred horse of his own. I'd prefer this horse were stabled at the logging camp and it may be a good idea to write in why his father's stables are no longer at his disposal, nor indeed the original Eotheod stud, but that's very very optional. Alternatively, and this may make it easier, he could have access to the original stud, the sired horse he rides personally and some other lesser pedigree horses in his father's stables which would provide good steeds for the other PCs. It may prove awkward to have one player on horseback and the rest on foot. From this you can see, I have no problem with players starting out rich. 



			
				Redclaw said:
			
		

> Well, going with the idea that his father is of the Eotheod, and his mother is a settled, civilized daughter of Dale, and that his father has been quietly encouraging his combat training and love of the open plains, I could easily see his mother insisting that he find something else to occupy his time, like a job. He would, of course, be spending his time dreaming of a return to his father's people, but his love and respect for his mother would push him to do his best as part of the logging team, for the time being.




Ah, and I had him down as an orphan for some reason. 

[QUOTE="Binder_Fred] Binder Fred, who'se character is getting a dog. A big yellow lab, I think.[/QUOTE]

This sounds very familiar (get it?)


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## Dlsharrock (Apr 13, 2008)

Mirkwood region and attached is the full sized Middle-Earth TA 1874 map.


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## Necro_Kinder (Apr 13, 2008)

Dlsharrock said:
			
		

> --Necro_Kinder's character may be an exiled or wandering knight of Gondor. I'm still fuzzy on this one and he needs a good background reason for being in Esgaroth, a long long way from Gondor. I suspect we may have our first casualty of Middle-Earth's strangle-hold restrictions. I did draw up an (I thought rather clever) idea involving the honour guard of a palantiri (based on my own extractions about palantiri from suggestions in Tolkien's work) which I emailed to you Necro_Kinder, but I guess it wasn't of interest?? Certainly there'd be no Gondor diplomats in Lake Town or Dale seeking alliance with Men whose Dundedain roots are  questionable. Some interesting suggestions have been put forward though. Any of these interest you Necro_Kinder?




Sorry Dlsharrock, I didn't get that email. Let me check around though, it may have gotten marked as spam or something. I do like the idea of being a palatiri honor guard though, that sounds quite interesting. If these ideas don't pan out though I can always make another character if you want.


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## Shayuri (Apr 13, 2008)

Thanks for all the info!

It really helps to have that overview of elf perspective...it's rather unique to Tokien's world, and it helps me frame the character more.

A question however on gender roles! Clearly, in the books, all the main characters are male. Does this imply, in the game, that females wouldn't take on roles like this? I ask not to try to bait you into a discussion of sexism in fiction . I'm just trying to work out what my options are.


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## Redclaw (Apr 14, 2008)

I don't really see Aerec coming from an overly wealthy family.  Clearly his father has a nice Vale-breed horse, and I would like him to have provided Aerec with one as well, but I think I'm happier with the idea that those two horses are a good portion of the family wealth.  He had to sacrifice much for his marriage, and perhaps he (Shild) runs the stables of one of the wealthiest people in Laketown, rather than having his own stables.  That would explain why Aerec needs to work at the logging camp, waiting until he is old enough to have his expertise with horses respected and get his own position as stablemaster.


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## Dlsharrock (Apr 14, 2008)

Necro_Kinder said:
			
		

> Sorry Dlsharrock, I didn't get that email.




Hm. Oddest thing is it's not in my sent items folder either. Very very strange. I think the gremlins are out in force.

No matter. I'll just post the idea here, and attempt to remember as much as I can from the original email.

In Middle-Earth there are seven Palantiri, scry-spheres forged by Feanor (see the Silmarillion) and given to the Men of Numenor. When Numenor sank beneath the waves (and for purposes of not waffling I won't go into that story here) only Elendil and his sons survived. They sailed to Middle-Earth and took with them seven of the Palantíri, thus seven scry stones came to the Dunedain. 

The seven Palantíri dwell in Fornost, capital of Arnor, Amon Sul (Weathertop), Elostirion (an Elven tower in the Tower Hills), Osgiliath in Gondor, Orthanc (Isengard), Minas Ithil and Minas Anor. Only one of the stones is known to be lost at the time of our game, and that's the stone from Osgilliath which was lost during the Gondor kin-strife. Here's an extract from the lotr Wiki. I wrote much the same in my own words in the email, but this is more concise and I don't have time to write it all out again. There may be a few minor innacuracies but for the most part, it's correct.



			
				lotr wiki said:
			
		

> The unrest that created the Kin-strife began when Valacar, the son of the Gondorian king Rómendacil II, married a woman of the Northmen of Rhovanion, Vidumavi. She bore him a son Eldacar, but many Gondorians of Númenórean blood were angered by this mixing of blood of Middle Men and Númenóreans, and the coastal provinces rebelled when Valacar grew old.
> 
> When in TA 1432 Eldacar succeeded his father the unrest grew into open rebellion, as many Gondorians saw Eldacar as a halfbreed who had no right to rule. The chief of them was his distant relative Castamir the Usurper, Lord of Ships, who in TA 1437 usurped the throne, forcing Eldacar into exile. During the rebellion Osgiliath was burned, and the great Dome of Stars was lost, together with its Palantír. Castamir also murdered Eldacar's son and heir Ornendil. Eldacar fled to Rhovanion, and Castamir ruled in his stead.
> 
> ...




So!

The palantiri of Osgilliath was supposedly lost in the waters of the Anduin during the Kin-strife war. However, I believe Tolkien had other plans for this palantiri. First, this particular stone could 'not be lifted by the hand of men'. Sound familiar? 'The Witch King of Angmar could not be killed by any man'. An ommission of capital letters suggests men, rather than Men. Second, the Osgilliath palantiri could eavesdrop on the other stones, where other stones could only communicate one to one. If a third tried to connect to a two way conversation between stones, it would see only a black mist. So this is quite a useful stone to lose. I think, therefore, that Tolkien had plans - and a story unwritten perhaps - for the Osgilliath stone. It's loss is never quite fully explained and certain events, particularly in LotR imply the use of the Osgilliath palantiri.

I believe Eldacar recognised the importance of the stone and had it removed and taken to his allies, the 'northmen', the Eotheod/future Rohirrim (his wife Vidumavi was the daughter of Vidugavia, then king of the Eotheod). He couldn't take it himself, being a man, so I think he entreated the task to a female, Vidumavi. Passing rumour into Gondor of the stone's sinking into the river would have been no problem (the Dome of Stars was aflame and the fire would have provided ample cover to steal the stone away on boats). While Vidumavi and an honour guard of loyalist knights headed north for the Vale of Anduin, Eldacar led Castamir's hunt into Rhovanion. Vidumavi delivered the Osgilliath stone to the Eotheod chieftain. She probably returned to Gondor when Eldacar reclaimed the throne. Perhaps many of her honour guard returned too (but not all?? Hint hint). The stone, meanwhile, remained with the Eotheod who became long term allies of Gondor.

In this way, Necro_Kinder, I think you could play a bonefida Gondor Man. He'd be the direct descendant of a knight (his great great great grandfather - or something - being a member of the original honour guard), so in effect he has entitlement. Maybe he knows this? Maybe he discovers it from old scripts or stories belonging to his family? In his head, leastways, he's a knight of Gondor, and traditions passed down through his family (along with inherent warrior genes) would make him a good fighter. 

As for the palantiri, I believe it remained in  the hands of the Eotheod until they became the Rohirrim and founded Rohan. At this time I believe the stone was kept in Edoras, or maybe (and more likely) Aldburg. There was already a palantiri in the tower of Isengard, of course, and this was long guarded by the men of Gondor, but eventually fell into the grasp of Saruman when he took over Orthanc. However, there's a question regarding the whole Saruman/Theoden/Wormtongue dynamic I've never quite understood and I think my missing palantiri jigsaw piece fits rather nicely. What if the Osgilliath palantiri was held at Aldburg, an artefact whose significance was forgotten. At this time all who used the palantiri were tainted by  Sauron's power, because he, of course, had his nasty claws on the palantiri of the Morgul Vale. I've never quite understood why Wormtongue turned to evil (Saruman used the palantiri, so that makes sense,  but Wormtongue's corruption was never fully explained). Perhaps he was some kind of curator, or chief of artefacts. He used the palantiri in Aldburg and fell into communication with Saruman. Just a theory.

I personally wonder if the palantiri was then used to empower Saruman's enchantment over Theoden. Wormtongue probably remembered the stone's existence to his king and thus was granted a high standing position in Edoras. When Theoden used the stone he fell under Saruman's curse and granted Wormtongue the lofty position of councillor. Again, it's just a theory. However, I'm fairly sure, given the evidence, there was another palantiri knocking about during the War of the Ring.



			
				Shayuri said:
			
		

> A question however on gender roles! Clearly, in the books, all the main characters are male. Does this imply, in the game, that females wouldn't take on roles like this? I ask not to try to bait you into a discussion of sexism in fiction . I'm just trying to work out what my options are.




Female Elves were just as formidable as male and I don't think Elves had any concept of sexism, though you won't find any butch female Elves  Galadriel is a good example of the empowered female Elf, beautiful, rather frightening and somehow ethereal. Arwen is a good example of the empowered feminine Elf. It would be nice to have a female in the midst also.



			
				Redclaw said:
			
		

> that would explain why Aerec needs to work at the logging camp




Good. This establishes good motives. I'm still a little concerned about one character on horseback and everyone else on foot though.


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## Shayuri (Apr 14, 2008)

Arr! Good deal then. 

I think I've settled on a ranger/scout...I like the Scout abilities, but I need that Track feat...and Wild Empathy and Favored Enemy: Orc just seem quite elfy to me. 

I haven't done a LOT of crunch yet, but the stats look to be:

Str 10
Dex 16
Con 12
Int 12
Wis 14
Cha 12

After racial adjustments to Dex and Con. This gives a pretty strong +4 to hit with ranged weapons. With Point Blank Shot for a feat, that means +5 within close range, and if I can swing a masterwork bow in lieu of a horse (^_^), that's +6. Not too shabby for a 2nd level character.   And of course with shooting and scooting for that skirmish bonus, I can get +1d6 damage. In areas where there's cover/concealment, I can even shoot, hide, shoot, hide...getting skirmish and benefits of hiding (if I beat opposed rolls, of course).

Just working out my preferred tactics here...

She'll be pretty hopeless in melee until 3rd level, when I can get Weapon Finesse...followed up with Precise Shot at 6...if we go that far...which I hope we can.

It also seems to me that my elf must be young...by elf standards. I'd hate to be centuries old, but only be 2nd level.   That would also help explain her willingness to associate in a cooperative manner with the humans and dwarves, since she hasn't had personal experience with their ugliness. Plus, it helps me see why she's pulled this duty, being of lower "rank," if not low-regarded...perhaps her elders see this as a potentially valuable learning experience for her. Let her see for herself what resides in the hearts of men! Moohoohahaha!


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## Dlsharrock (Apr 14, 2008)

Shayuri said:
			
		

> I think I've settled on a ranger/scout




The scout can't multiclass, except with a prestige class, due to the extreme hardship associated with learning the profession. Now, there are probably some extremely cool prestige classes you could use- particularly in Masters of the Wild 

Oh, and yes: I agree the Elf should be young and not a 300 year old 2nd level scout. 
A note on Elfish immortality, btw: Elves can die, from mortal injuries, drowning, starvation and so forth. Their immortality is one of agelessness and sheer immunity to the associated effects of deteriorating health. On the other hand, and I've had a few protracted 'discussions' with hardcore movie fans on this one, Elves do not have the choice to give up their immortality and are not somehow tied to the fate of the world as with Arwen in LotR. Arwen was the daughter of the half-elven Elrond, thus she had the choice to sail to the Undying Lands and become a full Elven immortal or remain in Middle-Earth and become mortal. Sindar Elves of Mirkwood are immortal and do not have this choice. Elves do have some kind of empathy with the world and the wild, but IMO this does not necessarily suggest they would die automatically if the world fell to evil.


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## Shayuri (Apr 14, 2008)

Hee...regarding the immortality issue, I wasn't too worried about it. Very little game effect in the confines of the time period we're in.  But I did notice an oddity about the LotR movie at least...not sure if it's in the book, since Arwyn wasn't nearly as much a presence in it. But Elrond tries to dissuade Arwyn at one point by warning her that Aragorn would die in the human  manner, leaving her eternally grieving for all the long years of her life.

Then we learn that she's "giving up her immortality." Which seems to kind of...negate that whole other argument. Unless, I suppose, that even an elf that's become mortal will live a whole lot longer than a man. *shrug*

As for the Scout...I'm not aware of any such rule in RAW. House rule? It seems kind of...arbitrary, doesn't it? It's not like Scouts are particularly powerful compared to the other classes, and I'd already be suffering an exp penalty...so it's not like it's any kind of powergaming manuever. Just not sure where you're coming from on this one.

Edit - You don't mean Monk, by any chance, do you? There is a multiclassing restriction on Monks...


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## Dlsharrock (Apr 14, 2008)

Shayuri said:
			
		

> Elrond tries to dissuade Arwyn at one point by warning her that Aragorn would die in the human manner, leaving her eternally grieving for all the long years of her life.




I think the assumption is that she'd go back to the Undying Lands after Aragorn's death. Not made particularly clear, and I'm just guessing to boot.



			
				Shayuri said:
			
		

> I'm not aware of any such rule in RAW




Just a quick note: if players intend to use variant classes, prestige classes or classes from addendum books not found in the core rules, you should allow for the fact that I probably don't have the reference at hand; I don't own Unearthed Arcana, nor do I own Complete Adventurer any more (I lent it to a friend a few months back and he has done a disappearing act)  In this case I searched for freely available information about the Scout class and found this on community3e.com

www.community3e.com/dn/class/scout.doc 

If this contradicts the official printed version, I'll happily take your word for it


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## Shayuri (Apr 14, 2008)

Whoa.

Heeee

My apologies then. I did not understand.

Yeah, the class you have there is way different than the one in Complete Adventurer. 

I believe Crystalkeep probably has the official version, or failing that, I'll see what I can do to get you the progression later tonight. D'ya have an email I can use?


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## Dlsharrock (Apr 14, 2008)

I've updated my email in my Enworld account. You can send me a message through my profile. I'd sooner not post my email in the forum. I get enough spam as it is


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## Binder Fred (Apr 15, 2008)

Alright, the bosses have left for greener pastures so I actually have some time this evening (no more long lunches, long meetings followed by extended beers and prolonged suppers). Nice folks, and I did learn some interresting stuff amidst all that talking, but still, "I'm going to go create a dwarven smith now," somehow never seemed to fit into the conversation. Go figure 



			
				Dlsharrock said:
			
		

> A logging camp on the shore of the Long Lake, or maybe part of the wooden pile comprising Lake Town (seems more likely as you'd have the added bonus of the town's defenses) or maybe nowhere near the Long Lake and instead somewhere on  the shore of the river, marking an entirely new settlement which, we can assume, was wiped off the map by Smaug or Wainriders at the relevant point in Middle-Earth history.



As I saw it, the logging camp would be somewhere out in the forest, where the trees are big/comprised valuable essences, i.e. away from the easily logged forest borders which have usually been picked clean and are second/third/fourth growth stuff. If it's near a town, less than say two hours walk, then you don't really need a homegrown smith, or healer, or a cook for that matter : the town has all that for far cheaper. A camp also gives it that isolated, help is faraway, solve your own problems kind of a feel, which I sort of like. You needn't worry about future traces : an abandonned logging camp will quite disappear after 30-50 years of growth, faster if hunters/elves/etc "steal" the lumber for their own ends.



			
				Dlsharrock said:
			
		

> --Head Smith at the logging camp (taking care of horseshoes, blades, nails, camp repairs etal) is Fred_Binder's character, a dwarven smith ?? or a woodsman of crushed stature, oft mistaken for a dwarf ??



I was thinking of a Broadbeam dwarf, the actual race, as they are probably not quite at home in Moria with the Longbeards, they've had previous history of cooperation with elves (the building of Menegroth to name one) and weren't involved in the Nogrod fiasco during the first age. He could be a dwarf often mistaken for a woodsman of crushed stature, I suppose. All the stunted fellows are locked up in that there Moria place after all, right? 

Smithing is one of the things he does, but wood is really his prime interest -- building with it, using it to shape and/or be shaped by stone or metal; it's oft forgotten that you can't build anything of stone without a wooden structure beneath, or at least a scaffold below : wood working is quiet, granted, shouts less brash than War, Gold or Forge, but it *is* a dwarven skill, and of all the dwarves the Broadbeams are its uncontested masters. He's on a hundred year apprentiship of his own devising and Khazad-dum simply doesn't have what it takes. 10 years here, 20 years there, he's got it all planned out. Only thing left to decide is what great work to build at the end.... He has *quite* a few ideas on the subject, actually.



			
				Dlsharrock said:
			
		

> I don't know if I like the grand disaster idea suggested in Fred's original post, but certainly a decline in quality of life and the closure of the logging camp might give the group a reason to set out in search of alternative earnings.



Doesn't have to be grand, just grand compared to a camp of 30 people or so (logging camps usually involved a hundred loggers at least, but I figure if demand is on the decline and the elves are holding us back from beloved clear cutting, it would make sense to have a small outfit going for the high pay items : long planks, single piece masts and beams and/or high quality furniture or flooring wood).

The problem with "alternative earnings" as I see it is that the group is more likely to shatter to the four winds than anything else : The camp is right now their only reason to associate, i.e. doing away with the camp also cuts their ties to each other. Now if the camp was *threatened* - physically, politically, financially - *then* they might bind together to defend their livelihood/duty/whatever. Say the trigger is that hard times have "forced" the management to order that (a lot?) more trees be cut than our dear Shayuri would normally allow (a large order from a dark client with gold to burn?). My character at least would feel directly responsible, as the foreman, for the continued health of "his" camp.... 

What do you think?



			
				Dlsharrock said:
			
		

> This sounds very familiar (get it?)



LOL. Shame on you, Dave. Horrible, simply horrible. 

Binder Fred, the glue of our lives.

P.S. Should have a sheet for you tomorrow, Dave, and history/description sometime after that.


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## Fenris (Apr 15, 2008)

Dlsharrock said:
			
		

> Just a quick note: if players intend to use variant classes, prestige classes or classes from addendum books not found in the core rules, you should allow for the fact that I probably don't have the reference at hand; I don't own Unearthed Arcana, nor do I own Complete Adventurer any more (I lent it to a friend a few months back and he has done a disappearing act)  In this case I searched for freely available information about the Scout class and found this on community3e.com
> 
> www.community3e.com/dn/class/scout.doc
> 
> If this contradicts the official printed version, I'll happily take your word for it




www.d20srd.org has the variant classes from Unearthed Arcana as they are part of the SRD.

Link


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## Dlsharrock (Apr 15, 2008)

Binder_Fred said:
			
		

> As I saw it, the logging camp would be somewhere out in the forest, where the trees are big/comprised valuable essences,




Mirkwood is a _very _dangerous place and none but the Elves who dwell in the halls of Thranduil would risk living there full time (or part time). A logging enterprise wouldn't last long where the trees are tall and thick. 



			
				Binder_Fred said:
			
		

> If it's near a town, less than say two hours walk, then you don't really need a homegrown smith, or healer, or a cook for that matter




Yuurs. Ok. How about this: our map's not terribly terribly accurate,  but I'm thinking it's the map we'll be using so we'll assume it *is* terribly accurate and sort of ignore the official Tolkien maps a bit   . If we do that then we can imagine a third outlet to the south from the Long Lake, this one travelling at the same height as Mirkwood, but ending at sheer cliffs overlooking the Rhovanion plains. On our map, there's an eastern spur in the Mountains of Mirkwood where the River Running probably runs through a pass. Here there'd be alpine wood aplenty (a misnomer I realise ) and let's say a nicely defensible position above the falls where the river drops over the edge of the eastern spur and into the great plains. An adjoining tributary skirts the spur and takes longships travelling up from the wilderness around the spur of the mountain and up to Long Lake. Natural rock formations combined with ledges and man-made walls would provide defence against Mirkwood's horrors while the rocky but wide shore of the river would provide a space for the actual logging interest. The harvesting of trees from the mountainside would always prove dangerous, but we seem to be mustering a fair few warriors. 



			
				Binder_Fred said:
			
		

> I was thinking of a Broadbeam dwarf, the actual race, as they are probably not quite at home in Moria with the Longbeards, they've had previous history of cooperation with elves (the building of Menegroth to name one) and weren't involved in the Nogrod fiasco during the first age.




A descendant of the few who fled the destruction of Beleriand and found refuge in Moria? Sounds good.



			
				Binder_Fred said:
			
		

> He's on a hundred year apprentiship of his own devising and Khazad-dum simply doesn't have what it takes.




Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the dwarf kingdom's first loner! 



			
				Binder_Fred said:
			
		

> Now if the camp was *threatened* - physically, politically, financially




I thought I was suggesting the same thing? Financial threats and probable closure, as opposed to a grand earthquake, or mass attack by giant spiders, which I really don't want at the start of the game. What did you have in mind?

Thanks for the link Fenris, very useful, although I'm sure I checked the SRD first. Ah well.
Edit: ah, you mean for your character suggestion. Yes, I have access to that through a friend's character sheet and notes  Sorry, I thought you meant the Scout. I haven't been able to find that in any of the OGL stuff online.


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## Shayuri (Apr 15, 2008)

Arr...the Scout isn't OGL is why. 

It's sort of a "nature rogue." 1d8 HD, rogue BAB, 8 skillpoints + int, good Ref saves, class skills are a lot like the Ranger with some rogue staples like disable device mixed in. They get trapfinding, a "sneak attack" variant called Skirmish, and rogue powers like Uncanny Dodge and Evasion. They also get some rangery things like Trackless Step, Flawless Stride, Camoflauge, etc... Over the course of their levels they get two boosts to their move speed, at 10' each.

Skirmish gives a bonus to damage, and later on to AC, when the character moves at least 10' to a new square.  The damage bonus increases much more slowly than sneak attack, due to the AC boost mixed in. It's +1d6 damage at level 1.

Haven't had time to type it up in detail, but I should be able to when I get home from work tonight. Knock on wood. 

Edit - Oh hey! The full class is on Crystalkeep! Yay!  http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/index.php

Select the "Base Classes" pdf, and go to page 160. It's all there! Hurrah!


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## Binder Fred (Apr 16, 2008)

Dlsharrock said:
			
		

> Natural rock formations combined with ledges and man-made walls would provide defence against Mirkwood's horrors while the rocky but wide shore of the river would provide a space for the actual logging interest. The harvesting of trees from the mountainside would always prove dangerous, but we seem to be mustering a fair few warriors.



Sounds good! We *are* downstream of Long Lake now though... Instead of splitting the river, might we posit a smaller stream going down from the mountains to Long Lake just to the west? That fast stream on one side and the river on the other would isolate our plateau from the worst of Mirkwoods denizens. Keep the rest the same but we can now sail the logs down the stream and collect at the lake. Acceptable?



			
				Dlsharrock said:
			
		

> Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the dwarf kingdom's first loner!



Gimli wasn't exactly surrounded kin you know, and Broadbeams would be few and far between to begin with. But, now that you mention it, we *could* posit a posse of fellow dwarves, say half a dozen or so (the fellowship of the beam? . The conspirators have made their pact, then scattered out of Khazad-dum, making their way to locations of interrest in numbers dictated by the dangers and the rewards expected : the most efficient way to go about it, very dwarven. They are next to meet in (your call) years, to update each other on progresses made. In the meanwhile they've set up drop-boxes in likely location, pointed at by Broadbeam trail signs.



			
				Dlsharrock said:
			
		

> I thought I was suggesting the same thing? Financial threats and probable closure, as opposed to a grand earthquake, or mass attack by giant spiders, which I really don't want at the start of the game. What did you have in mind?



Well, "finding alternate sources of income" sounded like finding ways to abandon a sinking ship to me (i.e. go into adventuring, hired jobs or something of the kind) : it's sort of hard to fight the economy of an entire region. If you meant find new ways in which the camp could become profitable again, then that's a different story. 

What did you have in mind? The aformentionned spider silk gathering maybe? Expeditions into the forest would certainly stir things up, and while it might be difficult to get every character involved in the gathering itself, it would certainly be possible to involve *everybody* in a rescue attempt (should something.. untoward happen to the gatherers).

To re-state it, my original idea was to put the camp at the center of elf-human tensions, tensions created by a sudden increase in outright strip cutting, said tensions being fomented by parties who have an interrest in such a situation <hint, hint> 

Binder Fred, slowly swimming out of it.


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## Dlsharrock (Apr 16, 2008)

Binder_Fred said:
			
		

> Sounds good! We *are* downstream of Long Lake now though... Instead of splitting the river, might we posit a smaller stream going down from the mountains to Long Lake just to the west? That fast stream on one side and the river on the other would isolate our plateau from the worst of Mirkwoods denizens. Keep the rest the same but we can now sail the logs down the stream and collect at the lake. Acceptable?




Yuurs. And do away with the falls? I quite like the dramaticism of the falls! Ah well.



			
				Binder_Fred said:
			
		

> The conspirators have made their pact, then scattered out of Khazad-dum, making their way to locations of interrest in numbers dictated by the dangers and the rewards expected




Yes, I like that a lot. Meet ups would likely be once yearly (day after the Dwarven new year?). Gimli wasn't really a loner. In the books at least, he accompanied his father Gloin (one of Bilbo's twelve companions in The Hobbit) to Rivendell to ask Elrond's advice. He joined the Fellowship when he learned of the Ring, pledging his loyalty to the quest and leaving his kinsfolk for the sake of all Middle-Earth.



			
				Binder_Fred said:
			
		

> Well, "finding alternate sources of income" sounded like finding ways to abandon a sinking ship to me (i.e. go into adventuring, hired jobs or something of the kind) : it's sort of hard to fight the economy of an entire region. If you meant find new ways in which the camp could become profitable again, then that's a different story.




I just want to make this clear in my head: you're proposing the logging camp as a _starting location_, not as a permanent setting for the entire game, right?


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## Shayuri (Apr 16, 2008)

At the risk of adding to the confusion, my take on his point was more that the logging camp seemed to be the only thing that held the various PC's together as a group. He was concerned that if the focus of the game moved off the camp (say, because the logging wasn't going well and thus other means of getting money were required) that the PC's would be more likely to fracture into separate interests than to cleave together and quest around as a team.


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## Dlsharrock (Apr 16, 2008)

Quite. My only concern is that with the logging camp as the unbreakable focus of the game, the group are less likely to quest around at all and the game becomes more akin to a sim, or a soap opera based within  the logging camp with duty-based embarkations taking place within reach of the starting location and end-of-scenarios always returning to the camp, rather than the camp being a launching point. It could be argued you could range further afield on certain logging duties, but given the scope of the setting, it seems a bit of a waste. The logic, of course, is sound, and in a regular D&D game I'd consider it a firm basis for a game (albeit a somewhat sedentary one) - but I think in this case freedom to adventure and explore anywhere within what is, let's face it, a really really cool campaign setting are sacrificed for the sake of what seems to be an evolving mini-setting in its own right.

My preference originally was for a starting point with logic enough to bring a group of PCs together that their players could then either explore the rich setting and undertake adventures in the conventional sense, or get involved in the weightier issues of the period (ie, the Witch King of Angmar, the necromancer of Mirkwood, etc) and that would be their choice. Choice here is removed by tying the group to one specific location- if that's what Fred_Binder had in mind at least. I'm sure the point is debatable


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## Shayuri (Apr 16, 2008)

Well, I don't presume to speak for Fred. 

But for myself, I agree that a logging camp isn't in itself very adventurous. I think a better reaction to the valid observation that our characters aren't a cohesive lot is to introduce elements that could bind them together...either through backgrounds or in play.

I took his posts to be more of a warning of what would happen if that didn't take place than an advocation of a particular play style. 

In the beginning, the logging camp is that binding element. By the time the focus shifts, we need something else though. Some reason to band together, rather than to return to our disparate loyalties (dwarfs, elves, men, etc...).

I'm pretty sure this was your intent all along though, of course. Still, it's not a bad idea to all be on the same page when it comes to ideas for how to do it...short of discussing plot points that should remain unknown.


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## Dlsharrock (Apr 16, 2008)

Shayuri said:
			
		

> think a better reaction to the valid observation that our characters aren't a cohesive lot is to introduce elements that could bind them together...either through backgrounds or in play.




I'm not poo-pooing Fred_Binder's ideas, I hope that's not the impression I'm giving! My role as DM requires I keep a certain handhold on the setting and the foundations of the game. I'm merely ensuring I know where we're going with the logging camp idea.

Certainly I agree there needs to be a binding reason for venturing together as a group. And I like the maturity of using logic instead of deux ex machina for this purpose as it holds well with the mature setting and the carefully planned character ideas. On the flip side, we need to ensure the logic doesn't restrain the game or players.

I think I'll wait until Fred responds before I comment further.


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## renau1g (Apr 16, 2008)

I agree with Shay... I like the logging camp for a starting locale, but I'm thinking we _need_ to explore this fantastic setting. I know my char is looking for a way out of his downward spiral and travelling with the one who'd help him (Fred) would be something he'd be interested in.


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## Binder Fred (Apr 17, 2008)

Shayuri said:
			
		

> In the beginning, the logging camp is that binding element. By the time the focus shifts, we need something else though. Some reason to band together, rather than to return to our disparate loyalties (dwarfs, elves, men, etc...).



Well said, Shayuri. Yours truly didn't quite manage to word it as clearly as I'd hoped, it seems. 

But yes, I don't advocate an entire campaign based around the camp. I *do* think the camp is what binds us together initially so we need to get that piece of real-estate firmly caught up in the gears of fate so it can drag all of us along with it when it goes (how's that for a metaphor? . So, in the initial idea I saw us moving from "saving the camp's finances", to "avoiding human-elf war" to "unmasking the warmongers" to etc. That last one can send us out to anywhere in the realms, depending on who the perpetrators are and what means are neccessary to defeat them. Put another way, I think our wandering about the setting needs some sort over-hanging goal, a large problem which the PCs are free to solve as they wish. To set up that goal we do need a bit of a scripted first adventure though, to bind the PCs together and make the problem *theirs*. I think it would be very interesting play, perfect for low levels like us, but if you don't want to roleplay that first adventure (it's not what you had in mind, etc), then we could always create the adventure collectively, put it all in our equally collective backgrounds and skip ahead to the point in time where the problem opens up before us, possibilities endless : "discuss means amongst yourselves, worthy adventurers". I could dig that too.

Binder Fred, asking : what do you all think?


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## renau1g (Apr 17, 2008)

Hmmmm..... actually it's intriguing the thoughts of the low-level play...maybe dealing with some sabateurs from another camp, etc... Just thinking aloud.


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## Binder Fred (Apr 17, 2008)

Dlsharrock said:
			
		

> My preference originally was for a starting point with logic enough to bring a group of PCs together that their players could then either explore the rich setting and undertake adventures in the conventional sense, or get involved in the weightier issues of the period (ie, the Witch King of Angmar, the necromancer of Mirkwood, etc) and that would be their choice.



We could make that choice as players right now (instead of as characters later) and you/us build an adventure that points us in that direction? That's sort of what I had in mind. 



			
				Dlsharrock said:
			
		

> And do away with the falls? I quite like the dramaticism of the falls!



Keep them, by all means! Have the cliff where you wish relative to the camp and a river spouting out of the (upper?) middle of the shear face through the lips of a deep, dark cave (I'm thinking a soft, semi-horizontal limestone layer that got eroded by underground water coming off the mountain; you'd get an oval, elongated lip effect as the water can more easily erode sideways than into the harder surrounding shales/sandstones/whatever). http://www.bebutler.com/Images/SOC/hanging falls.jpg

Binder Fred, wondering if we're not dealing with series of big plutons instead... No, that chain looks fairly straight so probably the result of a minor plate collission. I think...


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## Dlsharrock (Apr 17, 2008)

Binder_Fred said:
			
		

> To set up that goal we do need a bit of a scripted first adventure though, to bind the PCs together and make the problem *theirs*. I think it would be very interesting play, perfect for low levels like us




My only problem with low-level play out of an initial linear adventure surrounding the move from camp to wilderness is the context of our game: ie forum based not tabletop. I've played an awful lot of forum/email games and I know from bitter past experience that they take a loooooong  time to get going if you don't set them off at the correct point. Starting the game at the  beginning of the background story could entail up to 6 months of gameplay (seriously, I've been there) before we even manage to get out into the setting. As I say, I've no problems with a sim-style game based in a sedentary location but it does seem a waste of Middle-Earth. Moreover, going on past experience, a long winded build up can sound the death knell for longevity. While the interplay of logging camp intrigue sounds interesting now, it may not seem so interesting in three months when we're still unfolding the soap opera and Middle-Earth is still siting around twiddling its thumbs.

Around a tabletop, of course, amid the pizza and beer cans, this is probably doable in a session and I wouldn't hesitate to kick-start things right at the beginning. But here we all are.



			
				Binder_Fred said:
			
		

> We could make that choice as players right now (instead of as characters later) and you/us build an adventure that points us in that direction?




At this stage, I'm eager to get characters created and the starting location established. I think the more freedom of choice at the start the better, so I'm going to say no to deciding here and now whether players want to explore or head off on the linear route. I think both are possible without imposing restrictions.

Request!

I think we should establish what the logging camp is, everybody's position in the camp (pretty much done already), where the camp is, how it operates and how it makes money. _Prior _to this, though, I'd really really like to see character sheets coming in from all posters who said they'd play. I have only one so far. Still  need sheets from Fenris, Shayuri, renaug1g, Redclaw and Necro_Kinder.

Proposal!

Once we're at that stage I'll post some suggestions for motivating the group a) together and b) out of the camp and into the setting. I'll include previously mentioned suggestions and a few of the ones I've had rattling around in my own head. We'll discuss which to go with then each player can write the events into their PC background, including how they find themselves rubbing shoulders with other PCs. I realise this is the crux of the logic, so I'm happy to spend time getting it right.


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## Shayuri (Apr 18, 2008)

Here's the raw crunch for elfy...

Name is pending. I want it to be a decent, cool name. Not a throwaway fantasy elf name. 

Any questions, comments, complaints are welcome!

Name
Race: Silvan Elf
Class/Level: Ranger/Scout
Gender: Female
Exp

Desc

Strength (STR) 10 +0 (2)
Dexterity (DEX) 16 +3 (6)
Constitution (CON) 12 +1 (6)
Intelligence (INT) 12 +1 (4)
Wisdom (WIS) 14 +2 (6)
Charisma (CHA) 12 +1 (4)

Alignment: Chaotic Good
AC: 15
Hit Points: 15/15
Movement: 30'

Init: +3
Base Attack Bonus: +1
Melee Attack: +1
Ranged Attack: +4
Fort: +3
Reflex: +7
Will: +2

Race Abilities
+2 Dex, - 2 Con
+2 Listen, Spot, Search
Automatically roll to Search vs Secret doors if pass within 5'
+2 save vs Enchantment
Immune to magic sleep
4 hours trance/night
Proficient in bows, longswords, rapiers
Low Light Vision

Class Abilities:
Skirmish (1d6)
Trapfinding

Favored Enemy: Humanoid (Orc)
Tracking
Wild Empathy

Skills: 36 + 7
Balance +5 (2 ranks + 3 Dex)
Climb +4 (4 ranks + 0 Str)
Hide +8 (5 ranks + 3 Dex)
Knowledge: Nature +5 (4 ranks + 1 Int)
Listen +8 (4 ranks + 2 Wis + 2 race)
Move Silently +8 (5 ranks + 3 dex)
Search +5 (2 ranks + 1 Int + 2 race)
Sense Motive +6 (4 ranks + 2 wis)
Speak Language (2 ranks)
Spot +8 (4 ranks + 2 wis + 2 race)
Survival +7 (5 ranks + 2 wis)

Heal +4 (2 ranks + 2 wis)

Feats
Point Blank Shot

Languages - Common, Elvish, Dwarvish, ?

Money - 44gp

Weapons -
Longbow, +4 to hit, 1d8 damage, 20 x3, 100', 3lbs, 75gp
20 arrows, 3lbs, 1 gp
Short sword, +1 to hit, 1d6 damage, 19-20 x2, 2lbs, 10gp

Armour -
Leather, +2 AC, 15lbs, 10gp

Gear -


Magic -
	None


Background: 
Pending


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## Binder Fred (Apr 18, 2008)

Shayuri said:
			
		

> Languages - Common, Elvish, Dwarvish, ?



Dwarves are pretty secretive re language and given names in Tolkien's setting : None but dwarves really know more than a few words in Khazad and they sure don't teach it to non-dwarves (who aren't maiars or dwarf-friends or something). Re names, it is said they don't even put their given one on their tombstones (all the "public" dwarven names are really little more than nicknames).

Binder Fred, reading up on his subject, as time allows.


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## Redclaw (Apr 18, 2008)

Here's Aerec so far.  I have to finish up his gear...

Name: Aerec, son of Shild
Race: Human (Eotheod)
Class/Level: Fighter 2
Gender: Male
Exp 1,030

Desc

Strength (STR) 15 +2 (8)
Dexterity (DEX) 14 +2 (6)
Constitution (CON) 14 +2 (6)
Intelligence (INT) 10 +0 (2)
Wisdom (WIS) 10 +0 (2)
Charisma (CHA) 12 +1 (4)

Alignment: Neutral Good
AC: 17
Hit Points: 
Movement: 20'

Init: +2
Base Attack Bonus: +2
Melee Attack: +4
Ranged Attack: +4
Fort: +5
Reflex: +2
Will: +0

Race Abilities
bonus feat
+1 skill point per level
favored class: any


Skills: 12+3
Handle Animal +6 (3 ranks +1 Cha +2 feat)
Intimidate +4 (3 ranks +1 Cha)
Ride +9 (5 ranks +2 Dex +2 feat)
Swim -4 (4 ranks +2 str -10 ACP)

Feats
Animal Affinity (human)
Mounted Combat (1st)
Weapon Focus (longsword) (fighter 1)
Ride-by-attack (fighter 2)

Languages - Common

Money - (150gp -103gp) 47gp

Weapons -
Longsword, +5 to hit, 1d8+2 damage, 19-20 x2, 4lbs, 15gp
Short bow, +4 to hit, 1d6 damage, 20 x3, 60', 2 lbs, 30 gp
20 arrows, 3lbs, 1 gp
Dagger, +4 to hit, 1d4+2 damage, 19-20 x2, 1lbs, 2gp

Armour -
Scale Mail, +4 AC, -4 ACP, 30lbs, 50gp
Light Wooden Shield, +1 AC, -1 ACP, 3lbs, 5gp

Gear -


Magic -
	None


Background:


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## Shayuri (Apr 18, 2008)

Well...maybe I don't need those languages then. How many languages can an elf know in Middle Earth?


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## Necro_Kinder (Apr 18, 2008)

Here's a rough draft of my knight. I like the "descendant of guard of the Palantiri", he would be the great-great...-great grandson of one of the Knights sent to find and guard the stone, but he would have not returned home. He would've found this out when he cam to age, and then took on his title and his vows becoming a full-fledged knight. 

[sblock=Knight of Gondor]
Stat Point Buy, Modified

Name: 
Race: Human (Gondor)
Class: Knight 2
Alignment: Lawful Good
Gender: Male
Age: 20
Height: 6’1”
Weight: 185 Lbs.

Abilities:
STR 15 (+2)
DEX 12 (+1)
CON 14 (+2)
INT 12 (+1)
WIS 8 (-1)
CHA 14 (+2)

Racial Abilities: Bonus Feat 1st level, Extra Skill Points

Class Abilities: Fighting Challenge +1, Knight’s Challenge, Knight’s Code, Mounted Combat, Shield Block +1

Hit Dice: 2d12+4
HP: ?
AC: 17 {18} (4 Armor, 2 Shield, 1 Dex) {+1 vs. 1 Opponent}
Armor Check Penalty: -4
Init: +1
Speed: 20 ft.

Saves:
Fort +2 (0 Knight, +2 Con)
Ref +1  (0 Knight, +1 Dex)
Will +2 (3 Knight, -1 Wis)

BAB: 2

Attacks:
Longsword +4 (1d8+2, 19-20x2, S)
Lance +4 (1d8+2, x3, P)

Feats:
Skill Focus (Diplomacy) (1st)
Power Attack (Bonus 1st)
Mounted Combat (Knight Bonus)

Skills: (2+1)x4+4+4=20
Diplomacy +7 (2 Rank, +3 Skill Focus, +2 Cha)*
Handle Animal +4 (2 Ranks, +2 Cha)
Intimidate +6 (4 Ranks, +2 Cha)
Knowledge (Royalty and Nobility) +6 (5 Ranks, +1 Int)
Ride +2 (5 Ranks, +1 Dex, -4 Armor))
*=cross class

Languages: 
Common
Elven

Starting Gold roll
Equipment:  75 GP, 59 Lbs 
Scale Mail (50 GP, 30 Lbs)
Heavy Steel Shield (20 GP, 15 Lbs)
Lance (10 GP, 10 Lbs)
Longsword (15 GP, 4 Lbs)

Horse?
Saddle?

Carrying Capacity
Light: 76 Lbs
Medium: 153 Lbs
Heavy: 230 Lbs
Lift: 230 Lbs
Push / Drag: 1150 Lbs
[/sblock]


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## Dlsharrock (Apr 18, 2008)

Shayuri said:
			
		

> How many languages can an elf know in Middle Earth?




She'd know *Westron *(which passes for common round these 'ere parts). *Sindarin *is the Elven language most commonly spoken by Elves in the Third Age and especially by the _Sindar_, the 'sub-race' to which your character belongs. She probably uses a regional version particular to Mirkwood, though she'd be able to converse quite freely with other Elves in the same language. I shan't waffle too much, but if you want deep info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sindarin looks very accurate and might help you invent a name.

Btw: the dwarven language is called *Khuzdul*, and yes, the dwarfs guard its secrets as well as they guard their treasure.



			
				Necro_Kinder said:
			
		

> He would've found this out when he cam to age, and then took on his title and his vows becoming a full-fledged knight.




Ok, however, here is a quote from your PC's father:



> "Long have I desired this: my son of gentle birth, stands fine in the armour of my fathers. A true Man of Numenor! See here, carved upon the chest plate, the White Tree of Minas Arnor which blooms ere the true king presides. Here lie your loyalties, Man of the South. For within this metal skin you are within the province of your home Ithilien and the embrace of the Men of the West, though that home lies many moons and suns hence, beyond sight and memory.
> Within this beating heart you are a guardian of the oaths of our fathers; a true Esquire of the king! A knight of Gondor! But be warned, my son. The Knights of the Palantiri have long fallen from the thoughts of Minas Arnor, as has the stone under the Dome of Stars. Ere you return I fear honour shall not be easily renewed, nor your legacy stand official in the eyes of our people. Though you carry the bough of the White Tree upon your breast and its root runs strong in your veins, there is no pledge I can make or seal I can give to prove you as a descendant of Vidumavi's tribute. In truth, you are a true Esquire of Gondor. But truth has fallen to ruin in these suspicious times and I fear even the King in Pelennor should fail to recognise his own.




I'll appraise all submissions so far and get back to folks sometime this weekend.
Thanks everyone for your characters.


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## renau1g (Apr 18, 2008)

I'll have my PC up this weekend. Sorry for the delay. Tax season is kicking my butt this year (Canada's lasts until end of April).


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## Dlsharrock (Apr 19, 2008)

It seems points buy occur **after** abilities are adjusted for class/race (according to what I've been told by a mentor GM of mine who has used this system a lot more than me, so if anyone has just reason to suggest it's incorrect I'm open to discussion). 

Therefore points costs increase if you raise the score above 14 irrespective of bonuses/penalties. For example, if you've awarded your character 15 Dex from a starting point of 10 (+2 racial bonus perhaps), the points cost is still 8 not 5. A score of 15=8pts, 16=10pts, 17=13pts, 18=16pts. All ability rises from 9-14 still cost their equivalent in points irrespective of bonuses/penalties.

I'll just put this out there before I give attention to each character as I think some players may need to make adjustments.


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## Redclaw (Apr 19, 2008)

I would actually disagree with that, as it takes away any difference between races.  If the cost is the same, regardless of bonuses, it would be as easy to have an elf with a 16 con as a dwarf with a 16 con.  That negates the racial modifiers, in my eyes.  If you purchase your stats and then adjust them (this is the way the RPGA does it, by the way) then your elves will still be more dextrous than dwarves, and dwarves will be hardier.  That fits the fluff of the races, in my mind.


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## Dlsharrock (Apr 19, 2008)

Yuurs, this was also my thoughts. I think I will consider this and speak with him again. I get the distinct feeling, given his experience with D&D compared to mine, that he's probably come across something I haven't foreseen. Hold fire with the adjustments folks. Any further thoughts are welcome!


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## Dlsharrock (Apr 19, 2008)

Ok. It seems I didn't *quite* understand what was being patiently explained to me (not for the first time, I  hasten to add!), or rather I ommitted a very important detail. This is the first time I've used the points-buy system so please forgive me while I don my trusty brain crampons and climb the learning curve. Bring back dice, all is forgiven!

Racial bonuses/penalties _are _applied prior to adding points. So, if you have your elf with his +2 Dex bonus he goes up to a starting Dex ability score of 10. If you have your half-orc with no Dex bonus his starting Dex ability score is 8. Simple enough so far.

Important bit: Whatever the bonus/penalty is, it then translates to a positive or negative modifier to the points cost. Still with me? Then you're a better man than I because I had to have this explained a good ten times before the penny dropped.

Basically, if you have a -2 Dex racial penalty, you apply this to the relevant ability score *before *you buy your points and you translate the penalty to a +2 bonus modifier on the points _cost_. If your elf has a +2 Dex racial bonus you apply this before you buy your points (so he has Dex 10) and you translate the bonus to a -2 penalty modifier on the points cost, then you buy your points. If it was a -1 or +1 racial bonus/penalty you'd translate it as a +1 penalty/bonus modifier respectively on the points cost, and so on and so forth. You apply the modifier, either as a deduction or addition, whether you go above 14 or not.

Extra points costs still apply if you lift your ability score above 14. The crux of all this is that an elf who starts with a Dex score of 8 and pays 8pts to go up to an ability score of 15 doesn't then get an unfair advantage over those with no racial bonus if he adds his racial +2 bonus to lift Dex to 17 (which should cost 13pts). Yes, the elf should have a +2 advantage anyway, but using this method his advantage is greater. He is in effect an ubber elf!

The 8 point starting level is the default zero cost. So if you have a racial penalty, -2 Con for example, you start with 6 points instead of 8. The cost of adding 1pt to 6 to bring your Con up to 7 isn't 1, but -1 because 8 is default zero. -2 Con is a racial penalty, so it translates as a positive score modifier of +2. -1 + 2 = 1. 

If you think all this is confusing, you're right.
If you are a bit flummoxed, ignore all the above and just do this:

Start all abilities at 8. Add any racial adjustments. For positive racial adjustments (ie +1, +2 etc) deduct the equivalent amount from the cost of buying points. For negative racial adjustments, add the equivalent amount from the cost of buying points. Use this sliding scale.

Ability score  Cost
6                 -2
7                 -1
8                  0 (default zero points cost)
9                  1
10                2
11                3
12                4
13                5
14                6
15                8
16                10
17                13
18                16

And let me know if you have any problems understanding what the hell I'm talking about.


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## Shayuri (Apr 19, 2008)

I do not understand the hullaballoo. The rules are pretty simple and clear, as I understand them.

Racial bonuses/penalties are applied after stats are determined.

This means that if you have +2 racial to Con, then a Con of 18 costs 10 points for you (10 points to get 16, then the racial mod). Racial mods are just like -every other mod in the game-. Added on after stats are generated. Stats...mods. 

Now, if you wanna houserule that, sobeit...but that's the RAW. The PHB lists the order in which characters are generated on page 6. 

Is there something I'm missing that complicates things?


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## renau1g (Apr 19, 2008)

Ok.... I've started on my Character Sheet. I'm going to be working tonight & tomorrow, but I'll be fleshing him out as the weekend progresses. I didn't buy any equipment yet, to come.

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=50123


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## Dlsharrock (Apr 19, 2008)

Shayuri said:
			
		

> Is there something I'm missing that complicates things?




Well, as I understand it:

Elf starts at Dex 8, buy 8pts at a cost of 10 to go up to Dex 16. Add +2 Racial bonus to go up to Dex 18. 

Half-orc starts at Dex 8, buys 8pts at a cost of 10 to go up to Dex 16 and has no racial bonus (which is ok, because he's a clumsy half-orc). But if he then wants to match the elf's Dex 18 he needs to spend a further _6pts_, which means the elf's racial Dex bonus gives him an effective 4pt discount on the cost of setting up his Abilities. Using the 'sliding scale' rule outlined above this issue is neatly addressed. 

Even if an elf is better at Dextrous activities than a half orc, it isn't fair that he should receive an extra 4pts to spend on, say, Intelligence just because he's better with a bow.

Make more sense?

If you like, then yes, it's a house rule. Having said that, if all players take a violent dislike to this I'll reconsider. I'd sooner have a nice smooth game than lots of controversy before we've even started!

Edit: it's also worth remembering this is only an issue with the points-buy system, not random dice rolls. In the case of the latter it isn't an issue at all.


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## Shayuri (Apr 19, 2008)

That's kind of the whole point behind racial adjustments though. It's not like the elf is really getting a point break. If he wants the max possible dex for an elf, he still pays 16 points. 

It's just that for an elf, the max dex is 20, not 18.

It's all relative. You can't compare the score of an elf to the score of an orc. You have to take the costs within each race's normal minimum and maximum...

That's how I see it anyway. YMMV.


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## Dlsharrock (Apr 20, 2008)

Shayuri said:
			
		

> That's kind of the whole point behind racial adjustments though.




Well, I think it's about the value of points, rather than the racial modifier itself. But I'm not going to labour the point, especially as it's somebody else's  Let's just go with the RPGA points buy method of buying points and adding racial modifiers afterward. I'm more interested in playing the game than rewriting the rules 

I think I might bring this up elsewhere in the forums though. I'd quite like to hear what other gamers think of it.


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## Redclaw (Apr 20, 2008)

First of all, I'm playing a human character here, so the decision doesn't really affect me in any way.  That being said, I like good intellectual discussions, so I want to weigh in again.    

I have a few reasons for liking the PHB/RPGA version:

 Changing the order would effectively nerf the racial modifiers.  The reason for having those midifiers, IMHO, is to give each race a unique spot in the makeup of the realm.  Having dextrous elves that are more graceful than humans, and sturdy dwarves who can take a hit better, just makes sense to me.  Any rule that makes it easy for the dwarf to be just as nimble as the elf is an issue.  Imagine Gimli climbing up the oliphant and sliding down its trunk... it just doesn't work.

 The math just doesn't work the way it should.  Since most races get a +2 bonus to one ability and a -2 penalty to another, the would wind up with the same 28 points that a human has when applying the alternate rules (ie. +2 dex gives me 30 points, but -2 con brings me back to 28.)

 Despite the bonuses, there's still plenty of opportunity for characters to defy the system.  You can still have a dwarf with a 16 dex, it'll just cost more, and make him less effective in other areas.  On the other hand, why would you want to make a dwarf with a 16 dex?  That's just not in tune with their society.  

 I understand the objection about the poor half-orc, but at the same time it isn't really an advantage.  That half orc has the advantage of being able to be stronger for fewer points than the elf.  Each race has its own strengths and weaknesses, and most members of those races would be trained in ways to use their strengths and minimize the impact of their weaknesses.  That's why dwarves tend toward   , shields and heavy armor, while elves tend toward light armor and   .  It does encourage a bit of min/maxing, but I see it more as encouraging players to suit their characters to their chosen race.  Without it, the race is just a cosmetic choice.  

So, those are just a few thoughts.  I'm fine either way.   Plus I got to try out the new smilies.


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## Dlsharrock (Apr 20, 2008)

I've created a new thread for discussing the whole thing
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=224284
Please use that for further comments about this. As I said, I'm more than happy to dump the idea and go with the RAW to save controversy and so on.

And anyway, it probably doesn't help you guys that I hadn't explained it properly even the second time around. In the Rules forum thread above I've finally got it straight. From now on I think I'll just stick with what I think and let the RAW do the rest.

So... I await the last couple characters and then we can send this ball a-rolling.


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## Dlsharrock (Apr 20, 2008)

Couldn't wait 

Shayuri...

edit first bit: sorry, brain  burp.

The rest 

Re: starting gold+, at 2nd level I should award you an additional 900gp, given this is an Elf of Mirkwood and not your common or garden D&D ranger will the award be the same? I think so. Given she's mingling with Humans and therefore needs petty cash to get by, her King will have given her a coffer of petty cash. Elves don't have much use for gold in their own societies, though they are fussy about treasure if it lies in their territory (ie, they don't really spend it, but they don't want dwarves or humans to have it either!) and Thranduil is rich enough. I'll award you the full 900gp (add the 44gp she has from the class starting gold roll) to spend as you see fit on goods purchased, probably in Lake Town during likely sojourns there and/or the logging camp, or to horde in pouches and chests wherever you want. If you'd like to purchase a magical item, let me know what it is and I'll let you know if its allowable. If you want to upgrade weapons, armour etc. feel free. Unusual goods purchased should be realistic come with an explanation why she needs it.

XP = 1000 +6d8 (you can roll)

For the Scout ability Skirmish, what's the AC bonus? In the description on the link you gave me it's just listed as +X AC, or does that just apply to level 3?

Abilities, skills, feats etc all good


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## Shayuri (Apr 20, 2008)

Eee...thankee for respies!

I rolled 27 on exp roll... http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/1571704/

Which isn't bad for 6d8...

As for funds...well, I'd like a masterwork bow at least.  Elf craftsmanship! Not actually magical, but definitely well made and all. Similarly, perhaps upgrade her armor to masterwork studded leather? A bit heavier, but due to elfcraft, it doesn't slow her down any more than normal leather would...

Beyond that, the Magic Item Compendium has a few low-cost, low power, objects that might be appropriate. Let me give some brief summaries here...

*Blessed Bandage*, 10gp - Automatically stabilizes a dying character when applied.
*Daylight Pellet*, 150gp - Thrown as a grenade-like weapon. Causes Daylight spell for 10 rounds where it lands.
*Magic Bedroll*, 500gp, - Recover +1 hit point per level from resting in it for a night, gain Endure Elements while resting in it (not sure if elves use bedrolls, but there we are).
*Trollgut Rope*, 500gp - 1/day 50' rope can be commanded to grow up to 350' long. Excess vanishes after 12 hours. Probably would have a different flavor effect than being of troll gut. 

The AC bonus from Skirmish doesn't kick in until higher levels. At level one, it's just bonus damage.


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## Dlsharrock (Apr 21, 2008)

Masterwork bow - ok, cost 375gp and adds +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls. Masterwork arrows to go with your shiny bow are 7gp each. 

Masterwork studded leather armour - ok, cost 175gp and has an armour check penalty of zilch.

Blessed Bandage - ok. Quite a nice low level magic item and seems typical of the kind of low-level magical object described in The Hobbit.

Daylight Pellet - I'm saying no to this one as it's a little too close to existing artefacts, such as the phial of Galadriel, itself a prized Elven item (used against Shelob in Return of the King) and more suited to an Elf of high power like Galadriel herself. Light has very powerful effects on the dark forces of Middle-Earth, while the spiritual and magical energy of light is very auspicious with all sorts of relativity to the Valar and stars and so forth.

Magic Bedroll - bloody hell, that's one expensive mattress. But ok. This seems nice and Elvishy by design.

Trollgut Rope - ok. No reason to change it from trollgut I don't think, however, based on the physiology of trolls in Arda, if the rope ever comes into contact with sunlight, it turns to stone. To counter this problem the rope likely comes sheathed in a leather bag or wrap-around.

Why the blinkin' flip aren't my smileys working!?!


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## Shayuri (Apr 21, 2008)

There's an option somewhere where smileys are turned on and off. Maybe it got toggled somehow?

Re: Daylight Pellet, I forgot to mention it's a one-use item. You throw it, and it "explodes" into radiance. Hence the low cost. 

As for the bedroll, yar, expensive...but speaking from experience, D&D mechanics can be very brutal when there's no magic healing.  Anything that lets us heal a bit more will be welcome.

I can't afford much of that now of course...but it may come up later.


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## Dlsharrock (Apr 21, 2008)

Shayuri said:
			
		

> Re: Daylight Pellet, I forgot to mention it's a one-use item. You throw it, and it "explodes" into radiance. Hence the low cost.




I guessed as much (not many reusable grenades around) 
The issue is twofold and relates to the existing artefacts/magic of Middle-Earth and to the mutifold correlations between light/fire based magic and the spiritual history of light, flame and the Valar. For example, the seemingly low-magic Phial of Galadriel (all it seemed to do was emit light and frighten evil creatures) was a crystal phial filled with water from Galadriel's magic fountain. It was also known as the Star-glass, because it held a little fragment of the light of the Evening Star Eärendil, which was one of the Silmarils, contained within the waters of Galadriel's Mirror. It is thus a reflection of a reflection of the light of the Two Trees of Valinor and thereby something auspicious and hard-won, rather than something you might purchase in Lake Town, or acquire as a natural Elf of Mirkwood. Interestingly there's also the whole Eärendil story, closely related to Galadriel and the Silmaril, which adds further subtle levels to the phial's significance, but I won't blather on about that here. 

As a rule of thumb you can expect restrictions on most fire or light related magics in this game (fire has schizophrenic origins, with lots of weighty connections to Illuvatar's Flame Imperishable, but also the evils of Melkor and Sauron whose pits of production almost always include 'fiery pits' and whose magic/evil invariably finds origin in fire; for example, the Balrog, or the Ring of Power, forged in the lava deeps of Mount Doom).

I'm very much taking my lead from Tolkien who favoured quirky or 'useful' magic in his books as incidental and generally tied these D&D style magical effects into objects. This is more true in the Hobbit than LotR, I think. In LotR most magic seems to be marginalised to the Elves, to the Maiar, or to nature itself and makes significant connections with the light/fire theme.


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## Shayuri (Apr 21, 2008)

Arr, just making sure there was no misunderstanding. Cool deal then! Here is a revised sheet, reposted so you don't have to go back to the old one...including inventory. If all is well, I will include description and background when I post to Rogue's Gallery.

Oh, also, a note on favored class. Since it's a strength of humans that they have none it seems a little unfair to ask that favored class restrictions be lifted...but at the same time, with magic being low, having a favored class of wizard is fairly harsh. Same with any race that has a spellcasting favored class. Perhaps elves might have a different, more martially oriented class favored?

[sblock=Aranel Amandil]
Name: Aranel Amandil
Race: Silvan Elf
Class/Level: Ranger 1/Scout 1
Gender: Female
Exp 1027/3000

Desc
Pending

Strength (STR) 10 +0 (2)
Dexterity (DEX) 16 +3 (6)
Constitution (CON) 12 +1 (6)
Intelligence (INT) 12 +1 (4)
Wisdom (WIS) 14 +2 (6)
Charisma (CHA) 12 +1 (4)

Alignment: Chaotic Good
AC: 16
Hit Points: 15/15
Movement: 30'

Init: +3
Base Attack Bonus: +1
Melee Attack: +1
Ranged Attack: +4
Fort: +3
Reflex: +7
Will: +2

Race Abilities
+2 Dex, - 2 Con
+2 Listen, Spot, Search
Automatically roll to Search vs Secret doors if pass within 5'
+2 save vs Enchantment
Immune to magic sleep
4 hours trance/night
Proficient in bows, longswords, rapiers
Low Light Vision

Class Abilities:
Skirmish (1d6)
Trapfinding

Favored Enemy: Humanoid (Orc)
Tracking
Wild Empathy +2

Skills: 36 + 7
Balance +5 (2 ranks + 3 Dex)
Climb +5 (5 ranks + 0 Str)
Hide +8 (5 ranks + 3 Dex)
Knowledge: Nature +6 (5 ranks + 1 Int)
Listen +8 (4 ranks + 2 Wis + 2 race)
Move Silently +8 (5 ranks + 3 dex)
Search +5 (2 ranks + 1 Int + 2 race)
Sense Motive +6 (4 ranks + 2 wis)
Spot +8 (4 ranks + 2 wis + 2 race)
Survival +9 (5 ranks + 2 wis +2 synergy)

Heal +4 (2 ranks + 2 wis)

Feats
Point Blank Shot

Languages - Common, Elvish

Money - 287gp

Weapons -
MW Longbow, +5 to hit, 1d8 damage, 20 x3, 100', 3lbs, 375gp
20 MW arrows, 3lbs, 140 gp +1 to hit
20 arrows, 3lbs, 1gp
Short sword, +1 to hit, 1d6 damage, 19-20 x2, 2lbs, 10gp

Armour -
MW Studded Leather, +3 AC, 15lbs, 175gp

Gear -
Bedroll
Waterskin
Blessed Bandages x5, 50gp		

Magic -

Background: 
Pending[/sblock]


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## Dlsharrock (Apr 21, 2008)

Redclaw...

Languages: Rohirric and bonus language is Westron, which he speaks well. Rohirric is actually rendered in LotR as archaic Old English,  but is in fact a language in its own right and when Aeric is with his father or other members of the Eotheod tribes he may speak this language without being fully understood by others. Rohirric exists before the evolution of Eotheod into Rohirrim and is the derivative from which the Rohirrim and the region of Rohan gets its name. There are a few sources for Rohirric on the web, but not many as Tolkien never elaborated much on the language, choosing instead to represent it in LotR as an archaic form of Old English, as far as I can ascertain, so readers could understand dialogue. Most of the existing translations are from Rohirrim protagonist names and locations. Curiously, the language of Hobbits has, at some point in the past, been influenced by Rohirric, so you may be able to semi-converse with Hobbits in their own language or understand Hobbit text (and in my game they do have their own language). The Rohirric 'trahan' for example, means burrow in Hobbitish. More significantly, éo means horse (as in Éowyn, Éomer and so on). Théoden supposedly means King and the Rohirric word 'wose' means wild-man, which is where the Wose race of Middle-Earth get their name. Of course, you don't really need to know any of this, I'm just including it fyi.

Starting Gold: as with other players I'm taking the 900gp 2nd level award on a character by character basis. I'm trimming it to 450gp for basic starting equipment. However, Aerec does get a free high pedigree horse worth around 300gp (compared with the usual 75gp) and I'll also award 150gp to spend exclusively on gearing up the horse with barding, saddles and so forth. Add the left over gold from your starting gold to the pile and spend on the horse or basics.

The Horse:

Medium weight barding will reduce the horse's base speed by 15ft. Heavy weight barding will reduce the horse's base speed by 15ft and also moving at only triple its base speed when running instead of quadruple. Light carrying capacity will not affect the horse's movement. Medium will reduce base speed by 15ft. Heavy will reduce base speed by 25ft. 

Size: large animal, light weight creature (Arabian style, cannot fight while carrying a rider).
HP: 20
Speed: 65ft
AC: 31 (-1 size, +2 Dex, +3 natural), touch 10, flat footed 12 
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+8
Attack: Hoof -2 melee (1d4+1)
Full Attack: 2 hooves -2 melee (1d4+1)
Space/Reach: 10ft/5ft
Special Qualities: low light vision/scent
Saves: Fort+7, Ref+4, Will+2
Abilities: Str 14, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 7
Skills: Listen +4, Spot+4
Feats: Endurance, Run, Great Fortitude
Carrying Capacity: Light up to 150lbs. Medium 151-300lbs. Heavy 301-450lbs.
Drag Capacity: A light horse can drag up to 2,250lbs but movement restrictions will be applied.

Feel free to roll Hit Points.
All Abilities, Skills and Feats look good 

As with Shayuri's Elf, feel free to request magic item purchases but remember the low-magic levels of the setting and the likelihood of stumbling across exotic magic items in a logging camp or during his time in Lake Town/Dale. The Eotheod are a fairly superstitious people and not naturally drawn to magic, so heirlooms are probably unlikely.


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## Dlsharrock (Apr 21, 2008)

Favoured class. I'm happy to switch Elf favoured class to Ranger. Wizard is certainly inappropriate. I believe we have a potential Elf Druid in the making with Fenris, but ranger seems more fitting.


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## Redclaw (Apr 21, 2008)

Awesome horse.  Thanks Disharrock.  I don't really see Aerec with anything magic at this point, but I wouldn't object to a masterwork longsword if you're game.    

I appreciate the info on Rohirric, and I will do my best to work in a few choice phrases of Old English.  I'll have to whip out my copy of the untranslated Beowulf for inspiration.


----------



## Shayuri (Apr 21, 2008)

*bows*

I thank you, sir!


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## renau1g (Apr 21, 2008)

Ok, I'm working on Ulfang, almost done. For equipment, I was hoping for Masterwork Greataxe, Comp. Longbow, Chain Shirt (if avail, otherwise studded leather), and possibly buckler from the group of Wainriders who tried to track him down after he escaped the destruction of his villiage. I can't really see any magic items fitting his background.


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## Dlsharrock (Apr 21, 2008)

Renau1g- ironically your character is one of the ones I've been considering for a starting gold decrease due to his being a refugee and unlikely to carry 900 gp across dangerous territory and get away with the money, let alone his life. If we assume he's been in the logging camp for a period then I'm happy to award half the starting gold (450) based on wages earned and the little he probably managed to salvage during his flight from the Wainriders. Haven't got my Players Handbook with me right now, but you should still be able to get most of the equipment you want.

Edit: the buckler sounds reasonable and the least I can throw in given the penalty I'm imposing.


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## renau1g (Apr 21, 2008)

I agree with you Disharrock, I'm for thinking that Ulfang would've burned through a lot of his funds as well given his "condition". It fits his personality and background much better than walking around with 400 gp sitting in his pocket, because if he did, why would he come here to work? Thanks for the ruling, I'll get him finished today.


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## Dlsharrock (Apr 21, 2008)

Necro_Kinder...

Hm. This is an interesting class, especially the Knight's Challenge and Knight's Code, I've never come across it before. Thanks for the Crystalkeep link Shayuri, or I'd still be completely in the dark 

Feel free to roll your own HPs, Necro_Kinder (that goes for everyone, actually).

Starting Gold: As a descendant of a Gondor refugee I'd be loathe to award the 900gp 2nd level boost, but your character's ancestors were more than refugees and were likely well catered for by the Eotheod. Moreover, there's likely plenty of incidental diplomacy work for such a man of honour in places like Lake Town and Dale, so the 900gp award it is. Feel free to use this for purchase of a horse/saddle if you like. Don't use the stats I provided for Redclaw's horse which is a thoroughbred Eotheod steed and has a few modifications. Instead use the stats in  the Monster Manual. If you don't have that, let me know and I'll post it.

Language: Westron (the formal language of Gondor) and as a second limited language, Adunaic, not Elven. Adunaic is the Dunedain related tongue of the Men of the West and was adopted by northern Men along with Westron in Ages past. In our period, The Beornings, Men of the Long Lake and Dale will speak in Westron but 'broader' native dialect may fall back on Adunaic words here and there and certain long-lived phrases or sayings may be pure Adunaic. Our knight will have an inherent knowledge of these words and phrases. He won't have a knowledge of Elven as he's never spent prolonged periods around the Elves and has no reason to know their language.

Abilities, Feats, Skills and so on all look good


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## renau1g (Apr 21, 2008)

http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/1572436/

I rolled 26, almost the same as you Shay.

OK I think I've got him set... let me know your thoughts:

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=50123

P.S. How do we do HP? Max 1st, average after? Or roll?


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## Dlsharrock (Apr 21, 2008)

Thanks Renau1g, I'll try to give it a looksee tonight, but right now it's looking more likely tommorrow.

As we're progressing nicely with our character creations, I've created a new thread to discuss the starting location and get the ball rolling in that direction. The thread's here http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?p=4177874#post4177874

This thread will also serve for OOC discussions during the game.
I've also renamed the campaign Citadel of the Iron Crown (and promise that will be the last time I rename the campaign )

Edit: Oh, and HPs: max 1st level then HPs + (HD x lvl) thereafter. Sorry, I thought I wrote that out on the first page.


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## Shayuri (Apr 21, 2008)

Heya, thanks for the link. I shall take a gander.

One question, and it's about language again.

I re-apportioned the points I spent previously on Speak Language, but I realize I still have a bonus language due me due to my ravening genius (12 ). Besides Westeros (Common) and Elvish (Sindarin), what would some reasonable choices for another language be?

Ideally they'd not only be in-character (ie - not Dwarvish or Hobbitish), but potentially useful to an adventurer too...

I was thinking maybe the dark speech of Mordor, so as to decode Orcish or other dark writing we might encounter. But I dunno if that's something elves would typically learn. 

Thoughts?


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## Dlsharrock (Apr 21, 2008)

Shayuri said:
			
		

> One question, and it's about language again.




I would suggest Quenya. Not spoken in Third Age Middle-Earth as a viable dialect, it is to the Elves of our period what Latin is to modern day British scholars (who like that sort of thing). As an extra language its ideal, because it isn't really a spoken language, but may crop up in ancient scripts and is often used in names and locations held dear by the Elves. As she's a bit of a brainbox it suits her well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quenya

The language of the orcs is a closed book to the Elves... and to me as I couldn't find much reference to it (if the movies are anything to go by it's only regional cockney anyway). The Black Speech of Sauron is actually a variation of Valarin (well, Sauron is a maiar!) and therefore quite closely related to Quenya. So if she can speak Quenya I'd say there's a good chance she can translate Black Speech too, at least in the same way somebody who can speak German can translate Austrian. You can have both languages as a single bonus. And don't say I never give you anything


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## Shayuri (Apr 22, 2008)

You never...oh...right. 

As I was reading the various Tokien Wikis, Quenya seemed to be to be the logical choice to me too! Sort of an older, "purer" Elvish from the old Valinor days. Since she's probably considered a Silvan elf, that is, only Eldar in the most technical sense, or of mixed lineage, I can see her taking an interest in the elves that went to the Undying Lands and returned.

I like your idea too that the Black Speech is related to Quenya. It makes a sort of sense too. Quenya was most likely a very common language on Valinor, and could easily have been adopted by Melkor before he escaped back to Middle Earth before the War of Wrath. From there it becomes the "official" language of the Orcs, and over time assumes a unique regional dialect that is called the Black Speech by soft, pasty elves and humans.

So a Quenya speaker could probably work out the gist of Black Speech, though subtle nuances would be lost (which leaves room for learned sages and so on to be consulted when the details are important).


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## renau1g (Apr 22, 2008)

Dlsharrock said:
			
		

> Edit: Oh, and HPs: max 1st level then HPs + (HD x lvl) thereafter. Sorry, I thought I wrote that out on the first page.




So therefore a barbarian gets 12hp at level 1 and then 12 x 2 at second level (or 24hp?)


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## Dlsharrock (Apr 22, 2008)

Yes, Quenya is the original language of the Elves, but doesn't predate everything. Valarin was the original tongue of the Valar but the Elves who dwelled in Valinor couldn't understand it and some sources suggest they disliked the language, probably because many of the words were extraordinarily long and complex and possibly because the Valar were effectively telepathic, so probably only used stilted sentences to bolster their meaning, rather than conversing fully with sound, when speaking to one another. The Valar spoke to the Elves in Quenya, but rarely used it with each other. And its no fun being the third wheel in a discussion you don't understand 

The Elves borrowed some Valarin for Quenya. In that respect, Black Speech, invented by Sauron (a Maia) and Melkor (a Vala) borrowed greatly from Valarin as both were fluent in this language and Quenya, which formed the basic foundations. However, as Valarin is a quite exceptionally difficult language and probably near impossible to learn at this stage in Middle-Earth history, I'm not including it with Quenya/Black Speech. It's unlikely to ever come up anyway.



			
				Renau1g said:
			
		

> So therefore a barbarian gets 12hp at level 1 and then 12 x 2 at second level (or 24hp?)




12hp at level 1, then HDx2 *rolled* at second level. Of course, if you roll maximum then we're looking at one seriously hardy barbarian!


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## Binder Fred (Apr 22, 2008)

Hey there Folks!
       sorry I haven't been quite as active as before : I've just started a 7-day intensive course yesterday in far away northern Chibougamau, only to find out the hotel's internet isn't working/is presently being installed. So I'm now squatting *another* hotel's connection, same owner and not that far a walk from where I'm staying, thankfully. Anyways, just to say that I'm still here, if in a much dimnished state for the rest of the week.

Binder Fred, jogging off to his course now.


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## Dlsharrock (Apr 22, 2008)

Binder_Fred said:
			
		

> Anyways, just to say that I'm still here, if in a much dimnished state for the rest of the week.




I thought you looked smaller, must be all that jogging 

Welcome back Binder, any attendance you can manage is very much appreciated!


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## Redclaw (Apr 22, 2008)

So Aerec would have 12 hp for level 1, then 2d10+2 hp for level 2?  I only rolled 1d10+2 here


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## Dlsharrock (Apr 22, 2008)

Oh  heckbum, it was late last night and wasn't making myself very clear. Sorry.

HPs: 

As per DMG for players starting at level 2, at second level, you get maximum HPs (in Aerec's case, 12hps) then roll HD for the second level (which I wrote HD x 2, but I realise now how confusing that reads, sorry, probably better written as HD x lvl... no- that still looks like HD multiplied by the level) Well, hopefully you know what I mean. Basically- what you did is right.


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## Shayuri (Apr 22, 2008)

Hee.

You can just say, "Use the rules for hit points as per the SRD and PHB." 

Max at first, then rolled at each level past first.


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## Redclaw (Apr 22, 2008)

Gotcha.  That's too bad.  16 hp isn't a lot for a 2nd level fighter.  Invisible Castle strikes again.


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## Dlsharrock (Apr 22, 2008)

Could all players who've  thus far had characters approved start thinking about finishing them up and posting them as completed character sheets. Include backgrounds, family trees (where applicable or has a point, ie if you want to be Fu, son of Bar, I'd like to know who Bar is), appearance and so forth. If you want to email your finished character to me that's ok. Use the email addy in my profile.

Renau1g, I intend to look at Ulfang properly this evening when I have time enough to give it my full attention. Hm, been a while since I visited Myth Weaver.

Thus far:

Shayuri - Aranel Amandil, the Elven go-between
Redclaw - Aerec, the Eotheod Fighter and all round horsemaster
Binder_Fred - *name pending* the Foredwarf at camp logging
Necro_Kinder - The righteous Knight of Gondor
Renau1g - Ulfang the disenfranchised and troubled Barbarian

Looks to me like Fenris has decided to withdraw from proceedings (which is a shame as his elven healer was looking good). If this is the case, a company of 5 is ample and I think we have ourselves a group


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## renau1g (Apr 22, 2008)

Well I rolled an 8 (HP (1d12=8) ) not too shabby, 3/4 of max. I'll get the background finished today, hopefully.

24 hp - don't worry Redclaw, you can always hide behind Ulfang...


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## Shayuri (Apr 22, 2008)

No healer? Meep.

Are healing potions available? I know they're not really in the legendarium...maybe we can call them herbal salves...or something.


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## Dlsharrock (Apr 22, 2008)

Yuurs, herbal tonics and potions will probably be in order, though I'm certainly not going to leave them lying around. 

Fenris may reappear, otherwise Binder_Fred's character has some healing tendencies, though his are more traditional than magical.

If it's a concern (and personally, I think you're right to meep) it may be a good idea to make sourcing some NPC help a priority before embarking on adventure. I'm posting something to that effect in the OOC thread.

Right... onto Ulfang!


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## Dlsharrock (Apr 22, 2008)

renau1g said:
			
		

> http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/1572436/
> 
> I rolled 26, almost the same as you Shay.
> 
> ...




Ulfang eh? Hehe.

Automatic Language: Westron
Bonus Language: East Rhovanion/Easterling (this is broad mixture of an ancient tongue spoken by the northerly Lossoth people and the Black Speech of Morgoth, hence the bonus bonus language)
Bonus Bonus Language: Black Speech

The Chain shirt: in Middle-Earth chain mail is known as Dwarf mail, primarily because dwarfs wear it like a second skin and because they invented it. I'll allow it because there are plenty of places where dwarf-mail can be purchased, or he may have picked it up from the bodies of those who hunted him along the River Running. Dwarf-mail (like chainmail) counts as light armour, so his 40ft base speed still applies.

The 'common wine' - dwindling spoils from his attack on the hunting Wainriders I think - likely comes from Dorwinian vineyards and is therefore not so common and _probably _valuable. Ulfang takes 10 to identify the wine as Dorwinian and may try to further appraise the wine (by taste) and estimate its true value... d20+(skill rank+0)+(INT mod+0) vs DC12...  or he can just keep it for personal use 

We've already discussed starting gold I think. Add that to your leftover starting gold for level 1 and equip him or horde it as you see fit. As per other PCs, please ask before you invest in any magic items.

Abilities, skills and feats all look good


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## renau1g (Apr 22, 2008)

Thanks for the lookover Disharrock, I used the 450gp we started with to purchase the Masterwork Axe, dwarf mail, etc. and have 5gp leftover from that amount. He appears to realize the value of the wine, probably why he hasn't drank any of it yet.

Appraisal of Wine (1d20=14)


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## Dlsharrock (Apr 22, 2008)

15gp per bottle would be a shrewd market value.


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## Necro_Kinder (Apr 22, 2008)

Well I spent most of my Knight's money on a light warhorse, some barding, and some masterwork armor. I figure the armor being masterwork isn't really a big thing, it's just easier to move about in and it's been in his family for a while so it had to be pretty well made and pretty worn in. I also got him some of the general adventuring things he might have on him; saddle bags, torches, etc. Here's the second draft.

[sblock=Aurvandil, Son of Erentil, Knight of Gondor]

Name: Aurvandil, Son of Erentil
Race: Human (Dunedain)
Class: Knight 2
Alignment: Lawful Good
Gender: Male
Age: 20
Height: 6’1”
Weight: 185 Lbs.
 Experience: 1045

Abilities (modified):
STR 15 (+2)
DEX 12 (+1)
CON 14 (+2)
INT 12 (+1)
WIS 8 (-1)
CHA 14 (+2)

Racial Abilities: Bonus Feat 1st level, Extra Skill Points

Class Abilities: Fighting Challenge +1, Knight’s Challenge, Knight’s Code, Mounted Combat, Shield Block +1

Hit Dice: 2d12+4
 HP: 28 / 28 
AC: 17 {18} (4 Armor, 2 Shield, 1 Dex) {+1 vs. 1 Opponent}
Armor Check Penalty: -3
Init: +1
Speed: 30 ft.

Saves:
Fort +2 (0 Knight, +2 Con)
Ref +1  (0 Knight, +1 Dex)
Will +2 (3 Knight, -1 Wis)

BAB: 2

Attacks:
Longsword +5 (1d8+2, 19-20x2, S)
Lance +4 (1d8+2, x3, P)
Shortbow +3 (1d6, x3, P, 60ft)

Feats:
Skill Focus (Diplomacy) (1st)
Weapon Focus (Long Sword) (Bonus 1st)
Mounted Combat (Knight Bonus)

Skills: (2+1)x4+4+4=20
Diplomacy +7 (2 Rank, +3 Skill Focus, +2 Cha)*
Handle Animal +4 (2 Ranks, +2 Cha)
Intimidate +6 (4 Ranks, +2 Cha)
Knowledge (Royalty and Nobility) +6 (5 Ranks, +1 Int)
Ride +3 (5 Ranks, +1 Dex, -1 Armor, -2 Shield)
*=cross class

Languages: 
Westron
Adunaic

170 +900gp starting gold
Equipment:  167 GP, 59 Lbs 
Masterwork Chain Shirt (250 GP, 25 Lbs)
Heavy Steel Shield (20 GP, 15 Lbs)
Lance (10 GP, 10 Lbs)
Longsword (15 GP, 4 Lbs)
Shortbow (30 GP, 2 Lbs)
20 Arrows (1 GP, 3 Lbs)

Carrying Capacity
Light: 76 Lbs
Medium: 153 Lbs
Heavy: 230 Lbs
Lift: 230 Lbs
Push / Drag: 1150 Lbs

On Horse: 110 Lbs
Light Warhorse (150 GP)
Military Saddle (20 GP, 30 Lbs)
Chain Barding (Chain Shirt) (400 GP, 50 Lbs)
Saddle Bag (4 GP, 8 Lbs)
-Bedroll (1 sp, 5 Lbs)
-Flint and Steel (1 GP, -Lbs)
-Hemp Rope (1 GP, 10 Lbs)
-Torch (3) (3 CP, 3 Lbs)
-Waterskin (1 GP, 4 Lbs)

Eradren, Light Warhorse
Size/Type: Large Animal
Hit Dice: 3d8+9 (22 hp) 
Initiative: +1 Speed: 60 ft. (12 squares)
Armor Class: 18 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +4 natural, +4 Barding), touch 10, flat-footed 17
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+9 
Attack: Hoof +4 melee (1d4+3) 
Full Attack: 2 hooves +4 melee (1d4+3) and bite -1 melee (1d3+1) 
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft. 
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent 
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +4, Will +2 
Abilities: Str 16, Dex 13, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 6 
Skills: Listen +4, Spot +4

Carrying Capacity
Light: 230 Lbs
Medium: 460 Lbs
Heavy: 690 Lbs
Push / Drag: 3,450 Lbs

[/sblock]

Lemme know if he has anything he shouldn't or needs something.


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## Binder Fred (Apr 24, 2008)

Dlsharrock said:
			
		

> Fenris may reappear, otherwise Binder_Fred's character has some healing tendencies, though his are more traditional than magical.



He might get *really* good at them once he can "cast spells" though, but that's not before  fourth level, soonest... It'll lend a hard-edged feel to the begining, where - I suggest- people are fairly fine and unscathed until their very last hit points; at which point a single sword cut will actually hit and take them down (i.e. HP all in luck/wind/determination and only the disabling blow actually hitting flesh in any significant way). Might be better not to build-in a deep hatred/shame of retreats into your character since it will be real low-level play there at the begining. Baran has no problems on that score, by the way : he'll happily wait for another day. 

*Renau*, does your character oppose being called just Fang, or is that too animal-ish for his taste? Ulgaf (white gull)? You there? Just trying to figure out what Baran calls him on a day to day basis. 

Baran's dog is called Belly, by the way, a big yellow lab more or less trained as a (not that efficient) guard dog. Has all the tracking ability of a well-fed couch.


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## Shayuri (Apr 24, 2008)

I would ask what he calls me, but it's probably something along the lines of "damn elf," or similar. 

As for hit points / healing, we could always adapt a sort of vitality point/healing surge system. I think the SRD has something like that in the Unearted Arcana part...I'll have to look.


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## Dlsharrock (Apr 24, 2008)

Altogther now

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaw

- sound advice on healing Binder_Fred. Let us know what you 'unearth' Shay.


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## Shayuri (Apr 24, 2008)

Here's a link that might prove useful.

http://dndsrd.net/unearthedInjury.html

Towards the bottom of the page is a Vitality/Wound Point system that is mentioned as being good for low magic games where healing isn't necessarily available easily.

Another variant rule is that of class defense bonuses, similarly designed to help characters in low magic games keep up with the powercurve when magic bonuses to AC won't be common.


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## Redclaw (Apr 24, 2008)

Aerec, revised

Name: Aerec, son of Shild
Race: Human (Eotheod)
Class/Level: Fighter 2
Gender: Male
Exp 1,030

Desc: Aerec is a young man with obvious ties to the Eotheod.  His blond hair is worn long and loose around his face, and his piercing green eyes show the strength of his people.  

Strength (STR) 15 +2 (8)
Dexterity (DEX) 14 +2 (6)
Constitution (CON) 14 +2 (6)
Intelligence (INT) 10 +0 (2)
Wisdom (WIS) 10 +0 (2)
Charisma (CHA) 12 +1 (4)

Alignment: Neutral Good
AC: 17
Hit Points: 
Movement: 20'

Init: +2
Base Attack Bonus: +2
Melee Attack: +4
Ranged Attack: +4
Fort: +5
Reflex: +2
Will: +0

Race Abilities
bonus feat
+1 skill point per level
favored class: any


Skills: 12+3
Handle Animal +6 (3 ranks +1 Cha +2 feat)
Intimidate +4 (3 ranks +1 Cha)
Ride +9 (5 ranks +2 Dex +2 feat)
Swim -4 (4 ranks +2 str -10 ACP)

Feats
Animal Affinity (human)
Mounted Combat (1st)
Weapon Focus (longsword) (fighter 1)
Ride-by-attack (fighter 2)

Languages - Rohirric, Westron

Money - (150gp -123gp 1sp) 26gp, 9sp

Weapons -
Longsword, +5 to hit, 1d8+2 damage, 19-20 x2, 4lbs, 15gp
Short bow, +4 to hit, 1d6 damage, 20 x3, 60', 2 lbs, 30 gp
20 arrows, 3lbs, 1 gp
Dagger, +4 to hit, 1d4+2 damage, 19-20 x2, 1lbs, 2gp

Armour -
Scale Mail, +4 AC, -4 ACP, 30lbs, 50gp
Light Wooden Shield, +1 AC, -1 ACP, 3lbs, 5gp

Gear - 
Backpack    2lb   2gp
Bedroll    *5lb    1sp
Flint and steel     0lb    1gp
Hooded Lantern     *2lb     12gp
50' hemp rope    *10lb    1gp
Sledge     *10lb    1gp
Spade    *8lb    2gp
Waterskin    4lb     1gp


Horse-Related Gear -  (66/150 spent)
Bit and Bridle    *1lb     2gp
Military Saddle    *30lbs    20gp
Saddlebags    *8lbs   4gp
Leather barding    *30lbs    40gp


Magic -
None


[sblock=Background] "What, lad?  You want to hear your story again?"  Shild's surprise was feigned, as usual.  "All right.  As you well know, it started in the great vale of Anduin, where I learned to ride before I learned to walk.  That is the way of the Eotheod.  As a necessity, I also learned to fight.  Life is difficult north of the Mirkwood, but it is beautiful.  The land welcomed me when I was ahorse, and I spent many days riding as far as I could.  I encountered a number of strange creatures, and was glad many times for my sword and shield.  Despite the danger, I kept riding out alone.  I didn't know it at the time, but I was searching for something.

"It was about 20 years ago that I finally found it, although I didn't realize it immediately.  I came across an amazing town built on floating platforms on a lake.  There I met beautiful lass whom I caught admiring my horse.  At first I just laughed at her fearlessness, bravely walking up to the half-wild horse and rider.  I teased her a bit, and went on about my business, trading with some of the merchants in the town.  Something about her eyes and raven-black tresses haunted my thoughts, however.

"I returned to Lake-Town less than a month later, supposedly for more trade but truthfully to seek out the lass.  Lucky for me, and for you, she had been hoping to see me, or at least my horse, again, too.  My "trading visits" got more and more frequent, until I hired myself on with one of the merchants as a stablemaster and horse trainer.  Not long after that, you joined us and I began your education in the ways of the Eotheod."  Shild looked with pride at the 15-year-old lad in front of him.  He still had a year or two before he would have fully grown into his heritage, but there was no doubting that he would be a warrior and a horseman, despite his mother's concerns.  

"Now, lad.  I know you feel ready to ride out and continue where I left off, but you know your mother can't stand the thought of you out there on your own.  It's best that you listen to her for now, and stay here in Lake-Town.  We'll find you a good job that uses what you know of horses.  That will quiet her while you finish growing.  After that we can talk again."
[/sblock]
[sblock=Aesctir]Size: large animal, light weight creature (Arabian style, cannot fight while carrying a rider).
HP: 20
Speed: 65ft
AC: 16 (-1 size, +2 Dex, +3 natural, +2 armor), touch 11, flat footed 14 
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+8
Attack: Hoof -2 melee (1d4+1)
Full Attack: 2 hooves -2 melee (1d4+1)
Space/Reach: 10ft/5ft
Special Qualities: low light vision/scent
Saves: Fort+7, Ref+4, Will+2
Abilities: Str 14, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 7
Skills: Listen +4, Spot+4
Feats: Endurance, Run, Great Fortitude
Carrying 104 lbs, without Aerec and what he carries.
Carrying Capacity: Light up to 150lbs. Medium 151-300lbs. Heavy 301-450lbs.
Drag Capacity: A light horse can drag up to 2,250lbs but movement restrictions will be applied. [/sblock]


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## Dlsharrock (Apr 24, 2008)

http://dndsrd.net/unearthedInjury.html

Thanks Shay. I'm up for using this, actually. The Vitality/Wounds system looks well suited to Middle-Earth, however I'll require a nod from each player, otherwise we'll stick with the Hit Points and the group can source itself a healer NPC 

Before voting yay, please take a moment to read the link provided by Shay (pasted above - please bookmark it if you're voting yay). Things to note: Con damage can have disastrous effects on life and limb with this system and there's a greater risk of sudden death from enemies capable of dealing large amounts of damage with a single hit. On the plus side, its easier to recover from battle or illness, and the higher the level the tougher your PC becomes.

If we go with the variant rules, just swap your existing Hit Points for Vitality Points since we already started out with maximum HPs at level one. Ensure you also remember to add CON for each level. I forgot to check PC sheets that CON was added and suspect I forgot to mention it in my rather convoluted 'how to determine HPs' blitherfest.

The class defence variant seems more fitting for a low-or-no-armour setting, like a seafaring campaign, or I guess a pre-metallurgy era. I know I've limited types of plate, but there's no reason for PCs to go unprotected by light variations of armour.

Please note also: if you decide to vote nay on the variant rule, you needn't justify, or feel you need to justify, your reason to the group. 

Thanks for the revisions everyone. I'll scribe everything up onto hard copy character sheets and then we can start thinking about getting this game started.


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## renau1g (Apr 24, 2008)

Yay


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## Redclaw (Apr 24, 2008)

I'm game for trying it.


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## Shayuri (Apr 24, 2008)

As I understand it, the class defenses are mostly to make up for low magic games not possessing the magical AC boosts available to mid and high level characters. They're intended, in short, to replace the natural, deflection, and enhancement bonuses that most characters, in normal D&D, start accruing around level 6 or so, and continue to accrue throughout their lives.

Without such bonuses, AC tends to hit theoretical maximums in the low 20's even for sword and boarders, which makes PC's very vulnerable to otherwise-equivalent CR foes, especially melee pounders with access to Power Attack.


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## renau1g (Apr 24, 2008)

I agree without magical defense's I wouldn't want to go against a Balrog (I know they're very high level, so you'd definitely need something)


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## Necro_Kinder (Apr 25, 2008)

Sure, I'm up for something new.


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## Binder Fred (Apr 25, 2008)

Shayuri said:
			
		

> I would ask what he calls me, but it's probably something along the lines of "damn elf," or similar. .



Not to his face, mind.  That might be one of your -um - endearing habits actually : require (ever-changing? Moon-based?) titles when addressed by short lives. If you dig, let us know your preferences, my lady. 

On the healing front, I'm tight on reading time so count me in as an "Abstains" on that score. I'd be remiss if I didn't mention the Feng Shui way of doing things though (Feng Shui is a RPG with a very cinematic/Action movie emulating combat system) : simply heal all heroes back to full between scenes. Exactly what constitutes a scene is up to the DM, and might consist of a single battle or a series of linked battles if the PCs have - for example - no time to rest in between or if it makes more dramatic sense. In our case we could transfer all (half of all?) damage to subdual and treat previous wounds as purely cosmetic/roleplay concerns. Depends on the feel you want for the game.

Binder Fred, system-tinkering at competitive costs.


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## Shayuri (Apr 25, 2008)

One Fred to rule them all, and in the darkness...Binder them.


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## Fenris (Apr 25, 2008)

Dlsharrock said:
			
		

> Yuurs, herbal tonics and potions will probably be in order, though I'm certainly not going to leave them lying around.
> 
> Fenris may reappear, otherwise Binder_Fred's character has some healing tendencies, though his are more traditional than magical.
> 
> ...




Sorry for the abscence folks. Life has been overly busy. And while I am still interested in the game, I do not want to slow it down, especially as it starts, I have been checking in on the thread and the subsequent discussions (ENWorld has been slow of late for me), even though I have not posted.

So Dlsharrock, shall I get rolling with my character,  or step aside to let the game proceed, or perhaps jump back in later as the game gets going, you call it. I am well behind the curve here since while I have my basic concept, lack a good motivation for yet another elf to journey with humans.


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## Dlsharrock (Apr 25, 2008)

Fenris, welcome back ...



			
				Fenris said:
			
		

> So Dlsharrock, shall I get rolling with my character, or step aside to let the game proceed, or perhaps jump back in later as the game gets going, you call it. I am well behind the curve here since while I have my basic concept, lack a good motivation for yet another elf to journey with humans.




I'm very happy to include you on the provision that you can post approximately once every two days, or at the very minimum once every three days. I have known marginal/fringe PCs whose players have posted once every 4 to 7 days in the past, but invariably the game turns its fiery eye upon them and then everything turns into snailsville.

On the subject of posting consistency, I might as well address it here since Fenris brought it up. One post every three days is my preference for an _abolute _minimum, by which you should get the impression that it would be better to post more regularly. I won't leap on anyones' backs if they can't post for a few days for some isolated reason, life is made of little set backs. On a regular basis, though, it causes PCs to dwindle into background scenery at best, slows down the entire game at worst. It also gives me extra NPCing work when it comes to things like combat etc. and I'm essentially a very lazy person  If you intend to go on holiday for a while or won't have internet access for two weeks or something, please let me know in advance and I'll allocate your PC to a volunteer player for the duration. Players who persistently vanish for more than 3 days at a time without giving me prior warning will likely be bumped from the game. I'm fairly unceremonious about it as it's one of my pet peeves. After all, even if you're mega busy it only takes five seconds to let us know. OK, stern DM bit over. You can all come out from behind the couch now 



			
				Shayuri said:
			
		

> As I understand it, the class defenses are mostly to make up for low magic games not possessing the magical AC boosts available to mid and high level characters. They're intended, in short, to replace the natural, deflection, and enhancement bonuses that most characters, in normal D&D, start accruing around level 6 or so, and continue to accrue throughout their lives.




Powerful characters in Middle-Earth tend to retain some kind of inexplicable 'magical' aura and ability for, if not magic casting, then inherent magical defence. I had planned on including something to represent this around 6th level, giving increasing increments of enhancement to AC per level against physical and magical attacks (with alignment based defences for good PCs against evil and vice versa). Would this be an acceptable and slightly simpler alternative?

I've also written up a wordy piece on magic in Middle-Earth, identifying the main factors in order to alter magical aspects of the game as we go, rather than try to pre-empt them all before we play. I may post it later today if I get five minutes.



			
				Binder_Fred said:
			
		

> On the healing front, I'm tight on reading time so count me in as an "Abstains" on that score. I'd be remiss if I didn't mention the Feng Shui way of doing things though (Feng Shui is a RPG with a very cinematic/Action movie emulating combat system) : simply heal all heroes back to full between scenes. Exactly what constitutes a scene is up to the DM, and might consist of a single battle or a series of linked battles if the PCs have - for example - no time to rest in between or if it makes more dramatic sense. In our case we could transfer all (half of all?) damage to subdual and treat previous wounds as purely cosmetic/roleplay concerns. Depends on the feel you want for the game.




I quite like the Vitality/Wounds system to be honest. Try to give it a read at some point Fred and give us your decision. Actually, if you give me until this evening I'll try to compose the variant rule in short, save you some reading time.


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## Shayuri (Apr 25, 2008)

I think that'd be fine...it sounds a lot like the defense bonuses anyway, really...except it kicks in later, which isn't much of an issue since ordinary armor suffices until then.


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## Fenris (Apr 25, 2008)

Dlsharrock,
Sounds good. I should not usually have a problem with that rate of posting. As a caveat I do teach from 8 am until 10 pm (and don't get home until 11 pm) Mondays, Tuesdays and Wednesdays, so they are tricky for me to post. I can squeeze in posts especially Tuesday afternoons, but I am often dead tired at night. But I'll make every effort to at least check in those evenings to make sure I don't hold things back.

So if that is adequate, I'll craft up my druid. (Now where did I put my Tolkien dictionary....)


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## Dlsharrock (Apr 26, 2008)

I would try to post Tuesday afternoons and reserve the rest of your game for the rest of the week. I understand sometimes there's not much time to play, then again if you don't have spare time for an RPG, you really shouldn't be putting yourself forward to play. Anyway, if you think you'll have the free time to join in at the previously mentioned rates, which it looks like you do, then please go ahead with your character.


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## Dlsharrock (Apr 26, 2008)

Awfully sorry folks, have had a rather busy day and haven't had a chance to do anything game related other than post the Magic In Middle-Earth text I wrote at the beginning of the week. You can find it in the OOC thread.

Binder_Fred, I got your emails, thanks! I'll try to get back to you this weekend. I'll also try to read that tunnel combat item you sent.


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## Shayuri (Apr 26, 2008)

Hee...it's all black text though! 

Still, interesting stuff. I do think the use of magic in Middle Earth "diminishes" the user, at least when it's a Maiar. I could swear I remember that being one reason the Rings of Power are so important. They stop that from happening...they allow unfettered use of their powers...


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## Dlsharrock (Apr 26, 2008)

Not black text now.  I used spoiler tags instead of sblock, sorry


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## Dlsharrock (Apr 27, 2008)

*The game has started!*
Thread link at the bottom of this post. Please read the waffle first.

I have everyone's character sheets (with a few queries/possible problems I'll address as they arise to be honest rather than nitpick through them all in this thread. Nothing major I should add). I have some things to discuss with Binder_Fred re. tunnel combat feat and his weapons choices. And we're waiting for Fenris to present his healer character. I think Fenris that you should join in where you can once your character is approved. I think it's better if the PC is encountered or comes to the logging camp as a visitor, rather than his being an integral part of the camp. I previously mentioned the possibility of hiring an NPC healer, perhaps your PC can fulfill this role?? Of course if the game is relatively sedentary at the beginning you may be able to slip your PC into proceedings as camp healer or something.

Some loose ends to tie up - I'm beginning the game as a linear introduction, with Baran and Ulfang together in Baran's hut, chatting and, I daresay, drinking. They disturb the burglars and give chase. I'm not going to roleplay the whole of this as it means some players are forced to sit and watch. Rather, the intro is an intro and the game begins once the intro is over. Other players should bring their characters in at appropriate points. Please all players bear in mind that this introduction has a twofold purpose: one is to start the game off with a bit of excitement and some possible plot hooks, the other is to bring the group together. The secondary purpose is more important than the first. Once the group are established, we can move on and roleplay in a less self-conscious way. 

*Some notes on the game in general (in no particular order):*

- *Rulesplay and Rules Lawyers Rn't Us*. As you all know, we're playing D&D 3.5ed rules. Where rules are appropriate I'll use them. If rules get in the way of _our _enjoyment of the game, I'll omit them. If rules seem inappropriate to the setting I may alter them accordingly (and hopefully intelligently). My games usually emphasise roleplay over rulesplay, and I've had no complaints in more than 10 years of running such games. Rules lawyers are welcome to play in my games, though as a caveat, I don't usually listen to them and have, in the past, asked over-active pedants to either tone it down or find a different game more suited to their... er... preferences. The rules, IMO, are background foundations, _not _foreground scenery.

- *Lookout for Number One and Each Other*. If a situation calls for rules specific to your character, or another PC, and I overlook such a rule, feel free to shout about it. Sometimes it's late, I'm tired or my mind isn't entirely enshrined within the pages of the Core books due to a head cold or my GF nattering at me or something. In such situations please don't be afraid to let me know. 

- *First person, third person once removed etc*. Whether you refer to your PC by name 'ie, Fubar opens the door', or use the first person 'I open the door' doesn't matter to me. I'd prefer present tense 'Fubar opens the door' or future tense 'Fubar will open the door' to past tense 'Fubar opened the door' but it's no biggie. 

- *Map making*. I recommend one player volunteers themselves as group map-keeper.

- *Sticking Together*. Sometimes splitting up will be necessary, but this is officially a group game and I only really have time to moderate one IC thread, so I'd appreciate if players could do their best, using a mix of logic and common sense, to keep the group together. Where this really makes no sense whatsoever, use your best judgement. 

*!!The game thread is here!!*
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=224827

See you in the game!


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## Fenris (Apr 27, 2008)

I should have him finished up tonight and I'll post him. I may send you an email reagrding the why he is there. But filling the healer role is fine by me, that's been the goal all along is to be the party healer.


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## Dlsharrock (Apr 27, 2008)

Fenris said:
			
		

> But filling the healer role is fine by me, that's been the goal all along is to be the party healer.




With that in mind, do we need to go the route of Vitality/Wounds?


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## Fenris (Apr 28, 2008)

Dlsharrock said:
			
		

> With that in mind, do we need to go the route of Vitality/Wounds?





You're call there. I think it does the setting well though.

Here is my character as a first draft. I need a few things t round him out, but I wanted to get your eyes on it so far.

May I treat the staff you gave me as a quarterstaff?
I tried to choose very subtle spells, things the elves would do simply and not think of them as magicalm but let me know if any are not appropriate.

I still need an animal companion, I am leaning towards an eagle, for well many reasons, I think it's the most setting appropriate, but feel free to add some advice.

And have we/you decided upon HP vs W/VP?

[sblock]

```
[B]Name:[/B] Thalion
[B]Class:[/B] Druid (UA variant)
[B]Race:[/B] Elf (Sindar)
[B]Size:[/B] Medium
[B]Gender:[/B] Male
[B]Alignment:[/B] CG
[B]Deity:[/B] Vala

[B]Str:[/B] 10 +0 (02p.)     [B]Level:[/B] 2        [B]XP:[/B] 1000
[B]Dex:[/B] 16 +3 (06p.)     [B]BAB:[/B] +1         [B]HP:[/B] XXX (2d8)
[B]Con:[/B] 10 +0 (04p.)     [B]Grapple:[/B] +2     
[B]Int:[/B] 12 +1 (04p.)     [B]Speed:[/B] 30'      [B]Spell Res:[/B] XX
[B]Wis:[/B] 16 +3 (10p.)     [B]Init:[/B] +3        [B]Spell Save:[/B] +X
[B]Cha:[/B] 10 +0 (02p.)     [B]ACP:[/B] -0         [B]Spell Fail:[/B] XX%

                   [B]Base  Armor Shld   Dex  Size   Nat  Misc  Total[/B]
[B]Armor:[/B]              10    +X    +X    +3    +X    +X    +3    16
[B]Touch:[/B] 16              [B]Flatfooted:[/B] 13

                         [B]Base   Mod  Misc  Total[/B]
[B]Fort:[/B]                      3    +0          +3
[B]Ref:[/B]                       0    +3          +3
[B]Will:[/B]                      3    +3          +6

[B]Weapon                  Attack   Damage     Critical[/B]
Comp Longbow              +5     1d8+1      19-20
Nimbrethil staff          +3     1d6+1      19-20
XXXX                      +X     XdXX+X     XX-XXxX
XXXX                      +X     XdXX+X     XX-XXxX

[B]Languages:[/B] Westron, Sindarian

[B]Abilities:[/B] Favored Enemy (Orcs), Nature sense, Wild Empathy, Woodland stride,

[B]Feats:[/B] Track, 

[B]Spells:[/B]
0 level: 4
1st Level: 3

[sblock=Spell lists]
Default
0 level: Cure Minor Wounds, Detect Poison, Detect Magic, Resistance
1st level: Goodberry, Speak with animals, Cure Light Wounds
[/sblock]

[B]Skill Points:[/B] 26       [B]Max Ranks:[/B] 5/2.5
[B]Skills                   Ranks  Mod  Misc  Total[/B]
Handle animal          2    +0           +2
Heal                       4    +3          +7
Knowledge (Nature)         5    +0    +2    +7
Listen                     3    +3    +2    +8
Ride                       2    +3          +5
Search                     0    +0    +2    +2
Sense Motive               X    +X          +X
Sleight Of Hand            X    +X          +X
Speak Language             X    +X          +X
Spellcraft                 X    +X          +X
Spot                       3    +3    +2    +8
Survival                   5    +3    +4    +12
Swim                       2    +1          +3


[B]Equipment:               Cost  Weight[/B]
Nimbrethil staff +1 Orc bane (cast one spell/day: Warp Wood, Soften Earth & Stone and Tree Shape )
Comp Longbow                     100 gp
Quiver 20 arrows                       2gp
Backpack                                2 gp
Healer's herbal kit                    50 gp


XXXX                     XXsp   XXlb
XXXX                     XXgp   XXlb
XXXX                     XXgp   XXlb
[B]Total Weight:[/B]XXlb      [B]Money:[/B] XXgp XXsp XXcp

                           [B]Lgt   Med   Hvy  Lift  Push[/B]
[B]Max Weight:[/B]               XXX   XXX   XXX   XXX   XXX

Kallo
[sblock]
Size/Type: Small Animal 
Hit Dice: 1d8+1 (5 hp) 
Initiative: +2 
Speed: 10 ft. (2 squares), fly 80 ft. (average) 
Armor Class: 14 (+1 size, +2 Dex, +1 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 12 
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/-4 
Attack: Talons +3 melee (1d4) 
Full Attack: 2 talons +3 melee (1d4) and bite -2 melee (1d4) 
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. 
Special Attacks: — 
Special Qualities: Low-light vision 
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +4, Will +2 
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 6 
Skills: Listen +4, Spot +16 
Feats: Alertness, Weapon Finesse, Link, Share Spells
Environment: Temperate mountains 
Organization: Solitary or pair 
Challenge Rating: ½ 
Advancement: 2-3 HD (Medium) 
Level Adjustment: — 
[/sblock]

[B]Age:[/B] 75
[B]Height:[/B] 6'0"
[B]Weight:[/B] 160lb
[B]Eyes:[/B] Green
[B]Hair:[/B] Silver
[B]Skin:[/B] Fair
```
*Appearance:* Thalion dresses in the simple, but well made and durable clothing of his people. He usually wears green clothes, and has a brown cloak. He carries a staff and a bow with him, and since his return, few have seen him without them.

*Background:* Thalion was a young elf who loved the forest. Greenwood the Great was great
 indeed to one who enjoyed nature. Thalion ran under the boughs and wondered at the life great and small.
He began to learn all the names of the Kelvar and Olvar. He learn the uses for them, to respect them as Yavannas creations. That reverence 
allowed him to have a great sense of closeness with the natural world, and use Yavanna's gifts to him.
All that changed when Thalion was only 50 years old, a young elf still. He had caught sight of a white hart, and had given chase.
He did not want to shoot it, merely watch such a unique creature. The hart eluded him, and Thalion used all his forest lore and skill
to track it down. So focused was he on his prey that he failed to notice that he had wandered deep into the souther reaches of Greenwood.
It was there that a band of orcs on patrol spotted him and after a short fight whihc lieft a few orcs dead, Thalion was captured and taken
to the stronghold of Dol Guldur. There he was kept in a windowless cell, depreived even of the starlight. The light of the Valar was nearly extinguished in him.

What happened inside Dol Guldur, either Thalion does not remember or will not speak of for fear of unleashing horrific memories. Certainly he was 
subjected to terrible tortures that tested him body, mind and soul. In a desperate attempt, he slew his jailor one evening and slipped out in his armor, disappearing into the forest.
He was found by his kinsmen the next day, dazed, haggard and scarred inside and out. The elves of Mirkwood were overjoyed to see him alive, they had given up hope,
as Thalion had disappeared some 20 years ago. But to those who knew him, it was as if Thaion had died, for this was no longer the carefree Thaion they used to know. He was
dark, grim and silent. Prone to angry fits at times. Those who loved him forgave him for they knew the true cause. Thalion felt ill as ease under the mountain hall of King Thandruil.
He felt best out among the fresh air and trees that he had been deprived of for so many years. He also felt some peace form his wounds when he help heal others and soon became an accomplished healer.

But some ember still lay inside him, and that spark grew. He wanted some measure of vengance. He had learned a great deal about his captors during his captivity and used that knowledge to track them in the forest,
and eliminate them. Today he is a wandering elf, no where feels comfrtable as home anymore. He helps those he finds, elf, human or the rare dwarf. He searches Greenwood for signs of orcs and hunts them down where he finds them.


[/sblock]


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## Fenris (Apr 28, 2008)

Dl, I have been meaning to post this. A set of equipemnt rules for a low-magic setting to allow for better weapons and equipment with out the need of magic. Things that represent better craftsmanship. Like the swords of Westernesse that were found. Just something to onder for the game.

[sblock]


•	Accurate: +1 to hit (any weapon) 
•	Balanced: +1 to initiative when readied (any weapon or shield) 
•	Concealable: +4 to slieght of hand checks with this item (any item) 
•	Crushing: Inflicts an additional 2 points of non-lethal damage on successful hit (any blunt weapon) 
•	Deadly: Increases the threat range of any x2 weapon by 1 (any weapon) 
•	Decorative: Gain +1 to diplomacy checks while displaying item (any item) 
•	Fortified: 10% of any critical hit or sneak attack damage being negated (any armor) 
•	Guard: Wielder may reduce attack rolls by 1 for an entire round gains deflection bonus to AC of +1. This deflection bonus is doubled if the item is a shield. (any weapon or shield) 
•	Light: Item is 10% lighter than normal (any item) 
•	Mastercraft: Reduces armor check penalty by 1, to a minimum of 0 (armor or shield) 
•	Rugged: Item gains +2 to hardness and break DC (any item) 
•	Sharp: +1 to damage - bonus applied before multipliers (slashing/piercing weapons) 
•	Sturdy: 50% increase in item hit points (any item) 
•	Thick: A suit of medium or heavy armor provides damage reduction of 1/- against physical attacks - this DR is applied prior to any Damage Conversion (any armor) 
•	Threatening: Wielder gains +2 to intimidate checks when displaying item (any item) 
•	Well-Crafted: Provides a +1 bonus to a specific skill when used as intended (any item)

There are six levels of Masterwork items: 
•	Fine: 1 benefit 
•	Excellent: 2 benefits 
•	Exceptional: 3 benefits, may double once (ie, one double, one single benefit) 
•	Superior: 4 benefits, may double once 
•	Masterwork: 5 benefits, may double twice or triple once 
•	Masterpiece: 6 benefits, may double twice or double once/triple once

[/sblock]


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## Fenris (May 2, 2008)

Hey Dl,
So I am guessing my last tow posts flew under the radar?

Thalion has been up for a few days awaiting approval.


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## Dlsharrock (May 2, 2008)

My sincere apologies Fenris. I've been absolutely snowed under at work this week and haven't had time what with the game being afoot. I have a five day weekend starting today (yay) so I'll have time to look your character sheet over soon. Please also see my apology note in the IC thread (for all players) for my rather weak DMing overall this week.

On the subject of emails under the radar, did you get my one about herbs/trees?


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## Fenris (May 2, 2008)

Dlsharrock said:
			
		

> My sincere apologies Fenris. I've been absolutely snowed under at work this week and haven't had time what with the game being afoot. I have a five day weekend starting today (yay) so I'll have time to look your character sheet over soon. Please also see my apology note in the IC thread (for all players) for my rather weak DMing overall this week.
> 
> On the subject of emails under the radar, did you get my one about herbs/trees?




No apologies nessecary. Life is like that. I did indeed get your email, as you will note when you see Thalion as I incorporated several of the terms there.


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## Dlsharrock (May 3, 2008)

[SBLOCK=Fenris: ]Which variant class druid is this? Just the basic variant (swap Wild Shape for Swift and Deadly Hunter) or the avenger variant? I noticed in your background he's quite vengeful.

Personally I would make some adjustments in this respect. I think the game has enough fighters and warriors-on-the-make and he *is* a druid. My own take would be that, yes, he returned to Thranduil's halls but didn't fit in and chose to leave of his own volition, though he was probably 50% pushed out by the Elves and internal politics too. The Elves of Mirkwood can be pretty harsh (witness their treatment of the dwarves in The Hobbit) and even if he didn't speak of his treatment in Dol Guldur, they'd still sense the growing nugget of chaos inside him. Once back in the woods he'd still need to stay north of the mountains, where there are no orcs, and live empathitically, honing his druidic skills and lending his healing services to animals and birds. In the south life would be impossible. The woods are just too dangerous. To keep some elements of the vengeance idea, I'm adjusting his staff. See below!

Would he venture to Lake-Town or Dale? The Men of those towns are somewhat prejudiced against Elves, but he might be able to lend healing skills there. Why he'd do that remains to be seen. He'd have no need for money nor any compunction to help Men. So I'd suggest until now he's only used his healing magics and skills on animals and birds, which would also explain his low level in this class for someone 50 years of age .
I would suggest dropping the vengeful roaming warrior idea and keep Thalion relatively passive. When his chaotic urges increase you can roleplay a more aggressive nature perhaps? However you see it panning out. I just think there are enough warriors to be going on with.

My plan is to bring Thalion to the logging camp in order to heal someone there. My original device for doing this was to create a friendship between Thalion and an NPC at the camp. Let me know what you think:

The NPC,  Gellion, a pasty faced lad of 19/20, thin and nervous but with a great love for animals and the woods, would work regularly in an area of Mirkwood Thalion frequents. The Man, a keen animal lover but considered something of an oddball by the other workers in the logging camp, found an injured fox in the woods one day and tried to treat it. Usually wary of Men, Thalion watched this one caring for the injured animal and decided to step forward and help. The pair struck up a friendship and met often thereafter in the same spot to share meals and chat. Thalion probably identifies well with the ascetic nature of the NPC, their both being considered strange by their own people. When an injury/illness/poison etc occurs in the logging camp Gellion knows of the perfect person to call upon and fetches Thalion, somehow pursuading the shy druid to come to the camp and help. From this point on Thalion is known at the logging camp and respected for his skills, though many of the Men there are suspicious of him, just as they are of any Elf, but doubly so in his case because they suspect he's a wizard and are afraid of his staff. I would suggest he usually only comes when needed (twice a month on average I'd imagine?) but remains good friends with Gellion and sees him at least once a week in the woods.

In terms of the current game, Thalion is visited by an agitated Thrush, casts Speak With Animals and learns of the burglary in the logging camp. If the group are still at the camp the day after the robbery, he turns up there looking for Gellion, intrigued to find out what happened and wondering if his help is needed (he hears two of the  burglars are wounded). If the group have gone into Mirkwood on the trail of the burglars he heads toward the camp with the same intentions and stumbles across the path of the group. Either way I'll integrate you into the game based on the bird's report. I intend to join Gellion with the group as a 1st level apprentice druid NPC minus the spells (he kinda looks up to Thelion ).

--

The rest:
I think his alignment should be CG

We're going with Hit Points as standard now there's a healer on board  So not Wounds or Vitality.

XP includes +6HD pts.

*Don't forget to include a reminder of your class abilities:* Swift and Deadly Hunter, bonus to AC when unarmoured (AC+Wis and +1 bonus at 5th level then +1 increment at every 5th level thereafter: +2 at 10th lvl, +3 at 15th lvl etc. I see you've added the +3 bonus under Misc) Fast Movement (lvl 3 enhancement bonus as Monk), Favoured Enemy (which you have), Swift Tracker (move at normal speed while following tracks without taking normal -5 penalty and only takes -10 penalty instead of -20 when moving at twice normal speed) and Track, which you have.

Let's improve that staff a bit. I'll award a masterwork, +1 bonus and a magic bane weapon so the enhancement applies to attack and damage rolls and the staff casts spells with 1 charge that recharges indefinitely in 24 hours: spells include Warp Wood, Soften Earth & Stone and Tree Shape (in the case of this last the caster holds the staff in front of himself and he becomes part of the staff's own morphing effect). Command words are used with the staff. No bonuses on a critical  hit. Bane effect applies against orcs, the staff having taken on the vengeful wrath of its owner, with enhancement bonus becomes +3 on attack rolls and deals extra 2d6 points of damage to all orcs. This isn't a set Bane, btw, and if Thalion becomes vengeful against any other type of creature I'll add that to the list. However, he has to have a good reason to be vengeful. He was captured, imprisoned and tortured by the orcs. He really really hates them. Just getting into a brawl with goblins and taking a bit of damage etc doesn't suffice the same level of wrath. He really has to despise the creature for the staff to empathise.

Stats/Abilities all  look good, [edit] though as a more passive druid, perhaps more Int and less Str? Up to you though.

Hopefully the staff will soften the following blow: as Thalion is an elf of Mirkwood and has no use for gold, I'm not awarding him the standard 900gp for level 2. Whatever you purchased with the standard starting gold is his full compliment of equipment.

Thanks for the post about low magic/item compensation. I'll give it a looksee as soon as I can.

Consider Thalion approved and keep tabs on  the game progress as I'll be trying to introduce Thalion at the nearest opportunity [/SBLOCK]


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