# Witch spell question



## Summer-Knight925 (Feb 13, 2012)

How many spells does a witch know? Is it like the cleric and knows the whole list?


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## DogBackward (Feb 13, 2012)

No, the Witch works like the Wizard. You start with 3+Intelligence 1st level spells known, and all 0 level spells. Then you learn 2 new spells at each Witch level above 1st. Your Witch spells are "stored" in your familiar similar to the way a Wizard has a spellbook, and you have to commune with your familiar for one hour to prepare spells, just like a Wizard has to use their spellbook to prepare spells. The only real difference is that the Witch's familiar doesn't have a limited number of "pages" of spells it can hold.


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## N'raac (Feb 13, 2012)

The Witch basic class info is online at Witch - Pathfinder_OGC.  The rules for a witch's spell selection are cleverly hidden in the section on Witch Familiar.



> A witch must commune with her familiar each day to prepare her spells.  Familiars store all of the spells that a witch knows, and a witch cannot  prepare a spell that is not stored by her familiar. A witch’s familiar  begins play storing all of the 0-level witch spells plus three 1stlevel  spells of the witch’s choice. The witch also selects a number of  additional 1st-level spells equal to her Intelligence  modifier to store in her familiar. At each new witch level, she adds  two new spells of any spell level or levels that she can cast (based on  her new witch level) to her familiar. A witch can also add additional  spells to her familiar through a special ritual.



Basically, the special ritual requires you to have, and destroy, a scroll of the desired spell, then make a spellcraft check similar to the check a wizard uses to learn a spell.

In addition to these spells, each witch selects a patron, and the patron adds a spell to the witch's repertoire at each even numbered level, starting with a 1st level spell at 2nd level and endng with a 9th level spell at L18.

Witch familiars are detailed more at Witch's Familiar - Pathfinder_OGC.  Note that, if the familiar dies or is otherwise lost, 







> it can be replaced 1 day later through a special ritual  that costs 500 gp per witch level. The ritual takes 8 hours to complete.  A new familiar begins knowing all of the 0-level spells plus two spells  of every level the witch is able to cast. These are in addition to any  bonus spells known by the familiar based on the witch’s level and her  patron (see patron spells).



.  Losing your familiar is pretty serious business for a witch.


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## gamerprinter (Feb 13, 2012)

As nobody has seemed to mention but the Witch has a Witch's spell list - a limited list of spells. Many of the new PF classes have their own limited list of spells (each different from the other), this includes bard, paladin, inquisitor, ranger, magus, summoner and witch.

The witch gains some bonus healing spells, but still their primary list of spells is pretty limited. Consider Fireball is not on the Witch's spell list, among many others.


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## N'raac (Feb 14, 2012)

gamerprinter said:


> As nobody has seemed to mention but the Witch has a Witch's spell list - a limited list of spells. Many of the new PF classes have their own limited list of spells (each different from the other), this includes bard, paladin, inquisitor, ranger, magus, summoner and witch.
> 
> The witch gains some bonus healing spells, but still their primary list of spells is pretty limited. Consider Fireball is not on the Witch's spell list, among many others.




They definitely have a different flavour.  I'm not sure my L1 Witch has any spells which can inflict direct damage - definitely a support combatant rather than the guy who will take the opponents down.


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## DogBackward (Feb 14, 2012)

They've got a few direct-damage spells, like Burning Hands at level one. But really, Witches are _amazing_ debuffers. At first level, a Witch with Extra Hex can cause a target to roll 2d20 and take the lowest for all d20 rolls for one round as a standard action, then spend a move action to turn that into two rounds. Then to the same thing to a different guy next round, while extending the duration of _both_ penalties by a round. Get higher levels, when you can start stacking debuff hexes on a single target while keeping them going via Cackle, and it's disgusting.

Speaking of disgusting, I _love_ the theme of a lot of the witch spells. They have the perfect squicky feel. Vomiting a swarm of bugs, leaving my skeleton behind and walking around as my skin, being surrounded and carried by a swarm of wasps. It's all incredibly thematic and very cool.

I love the witch.


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## N'raac (Feb 14, 2012)

DogBackward said:


> They've got a few direct-damage spells, like Burning Hands at level one.




There's a sonic one that does some damage at L1 in one of the books as well.  I know I didn't take BH; not sure as I think about the sonic one.  As I said, I don't think _my witch_ has any direct damage spells.  Others could go for a different build. 



DogBackward said:


> But really, Witches are _amazing_ debuffers. At first level, a Witch with Extra Hex can cause a target to roll 2d20 and take the lowest for all d20 rolls for one round as a standard action, then spend a move action to turn that into two rounds. Then to the same thing to a different guy next round, while extending the duration of _both_ penalties by a round. Get higher levels, when you can start stacking debuff hexes on a single target while keeping them going via Cackle, and it's disgusting.




This is definitely their forte.  But, as I said, it makes them a support character - you can debuff all you like, but someone has to finish the enemy off.  That's the feel I'm going for with this particular character, so we'll see how it plays out in practice.  Worst case, I can always learn a damaging spell at L2 or later levels.  As for hexes, I'm starting with Evil Eye and Cackle, but same basic logic applies.  Extra Hex seems likely to be chosen more than once over time...but then, I've never found a lot of standard Arcane feats appealed.


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## DogBackward (Feb 14, 2012)

If nothing else, you can use the Slumber hex to put someone to sleep, then use a _Coup de Grace_ to finish them off. If you're worried about thematics, you can fluff it as offreing a sacrifice to your patron. Make sure to only use a dagger or short-sword (athame), and only use that weapon for the purpose of your "sacrifices".


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## StreamOfTheSky (Feb 15, 2012)

Witch definitely is more support/debuff, and their spell list is annoyingly focused on mind-affecting will saves and divinations, expecially at low levels.  Patron choice can help.  You could take Elements and get some blast spells, unfortunately mostly fire.  You could then take Dazing Spell feat and be able to throw save or lose effects against any of the 3 saves (you get tons of will save effects and by level 10 you have Ice Tomb hex and Baleful Polymorph for fort).  I think the "Triple Threat" is a pretty solid Witch build.


I have a Witch Handbook, if you'd like, though it's based upon doing the most optimal things.  Like...getting Slumber, boosting the DC sky high and taking Accursed Hex for when it misses, and spamming save or lose stuff every round.  May not appeal to your tastes.   But the feat, familiar, and patron advice might still be helpful, and I actually listed and rated every single witch spell.



DogBackward said:


> If nothing else, you can use the Slumber hex to put someone to sleep, then use a _Coup de Grace_ to finish them off. If you're worried about thematics, you can fluff it as offreing a sacrifice to your patron. Make sure to only use a dagger or short-sword (athame), and only use that weapon for the purpose of your "sacrifices".




It's much more efficient to use ready or delay to Slumber an enemy just before an ally within melee reach (or within a 5 ft step of melee reach) has his turn, though.


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## DogBackward (Feb 15, 2012)

StreamOfTheSky said:


> It's much more efficient to use ready or delay to Slumber an enemy just before an ally within melee reach (or within a 5 ft step of melee reach) has his turn, though.




I meant as an option to deal damage yourself. Most of the time, you should be concentrating on making it easier for your allies to kill things, yeah. But people were talking about a lack of damage-dealing potential for the Witch in general. And this is at least one way to possibly kill something yourself, if need be.

I'll take a look at your other stuff. I'm making a Witch as a backup character for our current game, at level 11, so it's bound to be helpful. Thanks.


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## N'raac (Feb 15, 2012)

StreamOfTheSky said:


> Witch definitely is more support/debuff, and their spell list is annoyingly focused on mind-affecting will saves and divinations, expecially at low levels.




My skim through the spell list (0 and 1st) to build my L1 witch focused on spells that don't require a Will save, simply because anything weak to will saves can likely be affected by hexes anyway.



StreamOfTheSky said:


> Patron choice can help.  You could take Elements and get some blast spells, unfortunately mostly fire.




But why?  The Witch is a stellar debuffer and supporter.  If the desire is to play a blaster, Sorcerers and Wizards are better at it.  My point is more to be aware that this is the role you're setting yourself up for so, if that's not the role you wish to play, maybe choose a different class.  If it is your desired role, then you've come to the right place!

There's a nice synergy between "I can buff the warrior if he stays close by" and "I'd sure like a warrior nearby since I have low hit points and no armor" as well.  Now, our group has a Dwarven Gunfighter/Gun Tank/Pistolero, so what better fellow to stand back from the main melee with me?

The obvious direct damage choice is the Inflict spells - not sure how I missed that.  Of course, these come with both touch range and will saves, both major drawbacks.



StreamOfTheSky said:


> I have a Witch Handbook, if you'd like, though it's based upon doing the most optimal things.  Like...getting Slumber, boosting the DC sky high and taking Accursed Hex for when it misses, and spamming save or lose stuff every round.  May not appeal to your tastes.   But the feat, familiar, and patron advice might still be helpful, and I actually listed and rated every single witch spell.




Pretty sure I've looked at that, and some other handbooks (Witch and Wizard).  They focus on optimization, sure, but it's nice to see other peoples' takes on the options.  I don't think most of us want a fully optimized cardboard cut-out character (or are going to argue "I Cackle every waking moment so Fortune stays up forever"), but few of us want to play the comic relief sidekick who spends most combats cowering, running or unconscious either, so there is a balance to be struck.  

I'm definitely looking at Slumber, Fortune, Flight and Misfortune as we go forward (and I definitely agree that the lower level hexes are full of great choices, which thin out rapidly with the more powerful hexes - of course, some nice feats are only available at higher levels, so Extra Hex early and Split Hex later works).

EDIT:  And you talked me into changing my patron (though it was a bit of a near thing - one spell read made the difference).


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