# Why do elves suck?



## Dark Jezter (May 1, 2007)

Well, why do elves suck?


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## Crothian (May 1, 2007)

Usually people who start such a opinionated thread at least have some reasons for they theory.  

I don't think they do.  Many of the reasons people dislike them went away in 3.x.  They are no longer perfect, they don't have the over the top Complete Book of Elves, they are a lot less Tolkien...


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## Zaukrie (May 1, 2007)

I didn't know they did.


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## Anti-Sean (May 1, 2007)

What'choo Tolkien about, DJ?


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## Jer (May 1, 2007)

Elves don't really suck.  I thought they did under 1e and 2e, but BD&D elves were just fine in my book, except for their level caps.  They weren't great at everything, but they were decent at a couple of things and it fit the bill quite nicely.  AD&D elves always stuck in my craw because they seemed so cheesily perfect.  In my first 3e campaign, 3 old-school 2e players all decided to be elves, and it was fun to see the looks on their faces when they realized that the HUMANS were just as good as the elves, if not better.

Personally, though, I prefer my elves to be a bit darker.  My homebrew gameworlds generally put elves more in the realm of Celtic legend than Tolkein.  In my own current campaign the "good" elves are kind of like the elves in Terry Pratchett's novel "Lords and Ladies."  The dark elves are much worse...


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## Piratecat (May 1, 2007)

Crothian said:
			
		

> Usually people who start such a opinionated thread at least have some reasons for they theory.



In this case, I suspect it's because he's trying to be funny. If you don't find it to be so, there's plenty of other polls to answer.


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## Dark Jezter (May 1, 2007)

Damn, I made a couple of copy-and-paste errors while making the poll.  "Orlando Bloom" is supposed to be its own option, as is "Any item with the word elf or elven in the name is automatically better".  The MMORPG option is only supposed to appear once.


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## painandgreed (May 1, 2007)

Other - because they're usually just treated as humans with pointy ears and a dex bonus


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## S'mon (May 1, 2007)

In 1e it was annoying that they were better than humans in every way.  The B/X Elf class is fine though.


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## Dimwhit (May 1, 2007)

You know, DJ, you would have made my life much easier if you had included an All of the Above option...


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## Crothian (May 1, 2007)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> In this case, I suspect it's because he's trying to be funny. If you don't find it to be so, there's plenty of other polls to answer.





The poll wasn't there when I posted.


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## Nifft (May 1, 2007)

IMC, they are fruity, tree-hugging, artsy, flighty, god-killing evil atheist bastards.

Cheers, -- N


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## Dark Jezter (May 1, 2007)

Dimwhit said:
			
		

> You know, DJ, you would have made my life much easier if you had included an All of the Above option...



 It's a multiple choice poll.  Just select them all!


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## davidschwartznz (May 1, 2007)

Nifft said:
			
		

> IMC, they are fruity, tree-hugging, artsy, flighty, god-killing evil atheist bastards.



Hollywood?


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## Dimwhit (May 1, 2007)

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> It's a multiple choice poll.  Just select them all!



 I know that...but you could have saved me many clicks, thus making my life easier, had you included an All of the Above. What, are you lazy or something??


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## barrowwight (May 1, 2007)

because they aren't dwarves.


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## Wulf Ratbane (May 1, 2007)

Great poll. 

Man, did you ever hit the highlights.


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## Infernal Teddy (May 1, 2007)

Jer said:
			
		

> In my own current campaign the "good" elves are kind of like the elves in Terry Pratchett's novel "Lords and Ladies."  The dark elves are much worse...




Thanks. How am I supposed to sleep now? *Scared*


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## occam (May 1, 2007)

I don't like them much because they're kinda boring and suboptimal, rules-wise. A bunch of minor advantages that don't synergize well, and an ability score bonus that doesn't directly support the favored class. Are those worth giving up an extra feat and extra skill points? No way!

It's just the rules that bug me, though. Flavor-wise I think they're just fine in the right campaign.


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## Aeric (May 1, 2007)

They're too darn short.  I refuse to think of elves as the most ancient and powerful race when their biggest representitive only comes up to my chin.


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## molonel (May 1, 2007)

Because sipping or licking isn't nearly so pleasureable.


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## Desdichado (May 1, 2007)

All of the above, but especially because they're *boring*.  Next time I need some warmed over Tolkien leftovers, maybe I'll look their way again, though.


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## EyeontheMountain (May 1, 2007)

Rules:
One sub-race for each base class.
One sub-race for each rule loophole(alter self-->wings)
Way too good ability score modifications and skill bonuses
Access to too many martial weapons, and top quality ones at that. 

Fluff: and Players:
Elves = Perfection? Whatever.
Elves and their long history = not good player characters
Players who refuse to accept elves take a century to grow up but salivate when they sit at young adult for 500 years.
Annoying players gravitate to playing elves. Grand standers and one man parties.

Ok, the last line might have been a bit much, but out of 85% of the annoying self absorbed players I have seen in my PBEMs, they have been elf fanboys. YMMV.  Elves seem to attract people who want their character to be innately special, innately powerful, with no work or in game effort on their part.


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## Davek (May 1, 2007)

barrowwight said:
			
		

> because they aren't dwarves.




That is their only redeeming quality


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## barrowwight (May 1, 2007)

Davek said:
			
		

> That is their only redeeming quality




I have to disagree with you but I like your style!


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## GreatLemur (May 1, 2007)

Oh, man.  So tired of elves.


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## Dimwhit (May 1, 2007)

I think this poll, based on the results, has proven that Elves suck. Way to go, Jezter!


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## Angel Tarragon (May 1, 2007)

Personally, I love elves. And I'm not a hardcore elf fan.

The only qualities I dislike is favored class: wizard, superiority complex, tree-huggers.

I've changed them for my homebrew making them a race of tolerant (blazing the way for the elimination of hate against minority and ethnicity groups and the eliminination of slavery), industrialaists (working with dwarves to creates very long last structures [sometimes the fantasy equivalent of skyscrapers] of beauty, strength and reslience and have also had a hand in the ushering in of the era of steampunk) and have changed their favored class to duskblade.


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## Doug McCrae (May 1, 2007)

Elves suck because they were overpowered in 1e/2e, they're irritatingly perfect in Tolkien and they're a bunch of effeminate, arrogant hippies.


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## Henrix (May 1, 2007)

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> Well, why do elves suck?



Because they have a -2 Con. This places them low on the pecking order, so they suck.

The only singleclassed elven wizard I've seen since 3.0 came out was one of the most careful PCs I've ever seen.


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## Sejs (May 1, 2007)

Simply put: the attitude.

There are some other issues too, but that's the big one.

If they had a PR manager they'd be fine, but somewhere along the way someone latched onto the idea that having elves come across as snooty, smug pricks was a good idea and sadly it's just kept on going from there.

Get rid of that meme and replace it with something memorable and you'd be well on the way to fixing the elven problem.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (May 1, 2007)

barrowwight said:
			
		

> because they aren't dwarves.




Yup.  You missed "All of the above" in your poll options.

(Actually, in truth, I don't hate elves per se ... I just hate the way aberrant fanbois have turned the fruity little tree-huggers into the uber-l337 by trying to emulate Tolkien.  PHB elves are welcome in my campaigns, so long as they remain in their place and recognize the inherent superiority of their betters -- that is to say, dwarves.  Retouched as nomadic, fae-touched woodsfolk with a paranoia about civilization & civilized races and favored class: sorcerer and I think they are much better flavored.  Though the flavor improves further when marinated in ale, roasted in dragon fire, and doused in ketchup.)


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## Quel_technoh (May 1, 2007)

Why do elves suck? Because they'll tell you that they'll cover your back. And they do. With arrows.
Seriously, elves suck because their societies are always on the decline, yet they still feel the need to be blissfully unaware of this fact as they frolic in their forest groves.
(My characters always become pincushions because the 1st level elf archers can't take precise shot. Friends don't let elf warriors cover them with bows.)
And Dwarves _are_ just cooler.


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## Kurashu (May 1, 2007)

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> Well, why do elves suck?




Let's start with why they don't suck...

They....um...err...make good....Spocks?


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## TwinBahamut (May 1, 2007)

Elves suck because classic fantasy elves are nowhere near a cool as mythological/folk tale elves. Well, that, and the horrid prevalence of Drow/Dark Elves annoys me to no end.


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## frankthedm (May 1, 2007)

Quel_technoh said:
			
		

> Seriously, elves suck because their societies are always on the decline, yet they still feel the need to be blissfully unaware of this fact as they frolic in their forest *graves*.



Fixed it for ya!


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## Darklone (May 1, 2007)

Dwarves suck, gnomes rock!


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## (Psi)SeveredHead (May 1, 2007)

Crothian said:
			
		

> I don't think they do.  Many of the reasons people dislike them went away in 3.x.  They are no longer perfect




Not if you ask me. 3.5 doesn't remove Elaine Cunningham's portrait of elves, and other things that made them "perfect".

In fact, by the rules, elves are weak sauce. A Con penalty in 3.x where Con is a huge benefit? Drow are similar, but worse (even more uber by flavor, even wimpier by stats).

PS I don't mind tree-hugging, at least with wild elves. However, I insist that wild elves be statistically identical to regular elves. (I don't see many supplements creating different stats for Inuit, after all.)


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## Gothmog (May 1, 2007)

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> Yup.  You missed "All of the above" in your poll options.
> 
> (Actually, in truth, I don't hate elves per se ... I just hate the way aberrant fanbois have turned the fruity little tree-huggers into the uber-l337 by trying to emulate Tolkien.  PHB elves are welcome in my campaigns, so long as they remain in their place and recognize the inherent superiority of their betters -- that is to say, dwarves.  Retouched as nomadic, fae-touched woodsfolk with a paranoia about civilization & civilized races and favored class: sorcerer and I think they are much better flavored.  Though the flavor improves further when marinated in ale, roasted in dragon fire, and doused in ketchup.)





What Olgar said, exactly.  The things I hate most are the smug attitudes of elves even though they are a dying race in most campaigns, and because the fanboys for elves are extremely vocal and tend to be freaky.  Elf fanboys tend to strike me as the same kind of people who thought vampires were uber-cool with trenchcoats and katanas, as some kind of urban bloodsucking ninjas.  And lets not even touch the 300 lb guy playing a hot elf chick who likes to roleplay out his romantic encounters (and yes, thats pretty common from my experiences).   

I tend to make elves a mandatory NPC race in my games, and play up their fey connections- they are fickle, devious, extremely self-involved, have no empathy for others, and have a dark overtone to them.  In short, they tend to be narcissistic lunatics, who occasionally turn sociopathic and murderous.

And they suck because they aren't humans or dwarves.  Ah, the shame and misery to be born an elf!


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## Kunimatyu (May 1, 2007)

My dislike of elves stems from the experiences I've had with elf-centric players.

In my experience, the people who play the Magical Immortal Pretty People almost exclusively tend to have serious self-esteem issues that I don't want anywhere near my campaign or my group of friends.

I have trouble grasping the mentality because I don't see the fun in playing such a wish-fulfillment character - I have more fun getting in the shoes of a flawed character who's different enough from me to be a change of pace.


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## molonel (May 1, 2007)

Gothmog said:
			
		

> And lets not even touch the 300 lb guy playing a hot elf chick who likes to roleplay out his romantic encounters (and yes, thats pretty common from my experiences).




Your gaming group is really, REALLY different from mine.


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## Thornir Alekeg (May 1, 2007)

Elves suck because they live so freaking long.  

If you want to create a campaign world with forgotten parts of history, you either have to make it many thousands of years ago, you have to make the elves "aloof" and separated from the other races, or you have to manufacture some reason none of those "middle-aged" 1000 year old elves remember anything about it.  

Oh, and they apparently all have ADD - elves can reach high levels in a few years, that's just a few months to humans.  So, why don't powerful old elves dominate the world?  Oh, that's right, they lose interest and move on to other things instead.


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## Gothmog (May 1, 2007)

molonel said:
			
		

> Your gaming group is really, REALLY different from mine.




Haha!  Any person who does that in my group is shown the door rather quickly.  Its happened 3 times with 3 different players at my table, and the first time we sat there open mouthed and dumbstruck.  That guy wasn't invited back.  I usually game with people (male and female) I've known from high school and college, with the occasional new addition.    The other two were warned about it before playing, and they persisted, which resulted in immedate ejection from the game.  I've also seen this a lot at game store events, and guys who obsessively talk about their characters- most play elves, and many play "lecherous hot elf chicks".


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## frankthedm (May 1, 2007)

Aeric said:
			
		

> They're too darn short. I refuse to think of elves as the most ancient and powerful race when their biggest representitive only comes up to my chin



Yeah, D&D elves being only 5' tall kinda feels wierd. Being short does not help the _"Dude looks like a lady!"_ issue.

The Ads for WoW:BC have the malest elf i have ever seen. 





Those are Man-hands.


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## Imp (May 1, 2007)

IMC all elves wear mithril trenchcoats and use katanas and shotguns.



Ok, fine, they're actually fey without any LA and they're extraplanar so nobody gets to be a full elf are you happy?

Not that dwarves are any more at home; they're extraplanar and totally covered in hair.


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## roguerouge (May 2, 2007)

*Elves: Less Fun Than You Might Think*

Okay, I'm going to try to do this in a PG-13 manner....

Elves live for over a thousand years. 
Elves are regularly portrayed as uber-attractive.
There are few campaigns where Elves dominate the land through sheer population growth.

This state of affairs can be explained by: 
A. Elves spend more time looking in the mirror than at each other.
B. Something does not mechanically work well in one gender's reproductive systems.
C. This is a logical response to the disincentive of facing 100 years of "The Terrible Twos" from their children.


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## Wulf Ratbane (May 2, 2007)

Gothmog said:
			
		

> They are fickle, devious, extremely self-involved, have no empathy for others, and have a dark overtone to them.  In short, they tend to be narcissistic lunatics, who occasionally turn sociopathic and murderous.




Wait, are we still talking about elves, or the guys who prowl the off-topic forum looking for romantic advice from Teflon Billy?


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## Olgar Shiverstone (May 2, 2007)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> Wait, are we still talking about elves, or the guys who prowl the off-topic forum looking for romantic advice from Teflon Billy?




Yes.


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## nerfherder (May 2, 2007)

roguerouge said:
			
		

> C. This is a logical response to the disincentive of facing 100 years of "The Terrible Twos" from their children.



Bingo!


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## Mark CMG (May 2, 2007)

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> (. . .) and doused in ketchup.





Yellow mustard only for Chycægo elves.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (May 2, 2007)

Mark CMG said:
			
		

> Yellow mustard only for Chycægo elves.




But for that recipe, they have to be rolled in grey ooze, floured in corn flour, dipped in boiling oil, and heavily salted.  _Then_ add the mustard.


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## Mark CMG (May 2, 2007)

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> But for that recipe, they have to be rolled in grey ooze, floured in corn flour, dipped in boiling oil, and heavily salted.  _Then_ add the mustard.





Or on a bun with fluorescent green spell components and a dash of celery salt.


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## Aeric (May 2, 2007)

frankthedm said:
			
		

> Yeah, D&D elves being only 5' tall kinda feels wierd. Being short does not help the _"Dude looks like a lady!"_ issue.
> 
> The Ads for WoW:BC have the malest elf i have ever seen.
> 
> ...




Yeah, blood elves rock hard.  They have an awesome maniacal laugh and a class which is essentially an ur-priest version of the paladin.  Any race that has a sweatshop manned by sobbing gnomes and a spirit of light chained up in the temple basement whose power is regularly siphoned off is alright in my book.  _They_ are what evil elves should be, none of this drow nonsense.


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## Brennin Magalus (May 2, 2007)

I don't like how elves are presented. They should have sorcerer or perhaps ranger as their favored class, not wizard. Also, they should probably have a strength penalty, not a constitution penalty.


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## Squire James (May 2, 2007)

In my game, nobody wants to play an elf.  They don't care about their "gay" reputation - they just don't like that Constitution penalty.  That ability score has skyrocketed in importance since 2e, and being hit there is a bit painful.  My players will suffer penalties in Dex (and play a heavy-armor guy), Str (and play a wizard), Wis (and play anything but a cleric or druid), Cha (can still dump this one pretty easily), and sometimes Int (reluctantly, because they like skill points).  But Con?  No way!


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## Moon-Lancer (May 2, 2007)

elves get the con shaft. good old wood elves fix that though....

also their proficiency's suck if you have one level of fighter. Give me +1 to hit and damage please. 

I found a fix though. Killoran. They get kick ass smiting, they are true fey (immune to lots of spells) and live forever, and they don't get shafted by con. They are described as looking like half elves but the artist drew them like plant things. I can draw and visualize on my own thank you.


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## Gez (May 2, 2007)

I don't like how they're allowed to be Lawful Evil and yet be considered of Chaotic Good alignment. Also, I don't like how they'll always do everything they can to hog the spotlight in every campaign setting.


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## Desdichado (May 2, 2007)

Mark CMG said:
			
		

> Yellow mustard only for Chycægo elves.



  The gratuitous usage of y's and Old English vowels for a "fantasy" feel seems to go hand in hand with the worst elf players too, doesn't it Mr. Mærk CyMG.


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## frankthedm (May 2, 2007)

roguerouge said:
			
		

> Elves live for over a thousand years.
> Elves are regularly portrayed as uber-attractive.
> There are few campaigns where Elves dominate the land through sheer population growth.



In 3e Elves only have 50 years of adult life before 88 years of middle age at an average Con of 6, followed by 87 years of old age with a Con of 4 and finished off with 4-400 years of being venerable with a Con of 2. 


			
				roguerouge said:
			
		

> B. Something does not mechanically work well in one gender's reproductive systems.



 If both genders have their reproductive systems 'run out' before old age, akin to the human female running out of eggs, then that can be a partial solution. 

Mayhap Elven females only ovulate when they fall in "true love". Thus elves are goodwilled, kind and whimsical because they have to be. 

But overall, I just say elves are not that fertile and have a rough pregnancy, the 2 year gestation and grow up over a century. Elven couples have to try a lot to have kids and it puts the mother in rough shape for some time. Once born the child is quite a burden and few elves entrust others to care for their young.


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## Moon-Lancer (May 2, 2007)

theirs not much difference from a -2 con (elf) to a -4 (human) when dealing with most classes hit points. Its still going to be 1 hit point a level.


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## Mark CMG (May 2, 2007)

Hobo said:
			
		

> The gratuitous usage of y's and Old English vowels for a "fantasy" feel seems to go hand in hand with the worst elf players too, doesn't it Mr. Mærk CyMG.





Sorry.  I must have accidently hit the pretentious lock key on my keyboard.


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## Gentlegamer (May 2, 2007)

Aeric said:
			
		

> They're too darn short.  I refuse to think of elves as the most ancient and powerful race when their biggest representitive only comes up to my chin.



I don't know how tall you are, but I bet most of your real life human ancestors would probably only come up to your chin, too.


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## (Psi)SeveredHead (May 2, 2007)

Moon-Lancer said:
			
		

> good old wood elves fix that though....




That is part of the problem, not part of the solution.



			
				Gentlegamer said:
			
		

> I don't know how tall you are, but I bet most of your real life human ancestors would probably only come up to your chin, too.




I'm pretty sure DnD humans are the same size as we are now (and big for medieval folk). Compared to humans, elves are still short. Mind you, I have no problem with short elves.


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## Felon (May 2, 2007)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> In this case, I suspect it's because he's trying to be funny.



No, unfortunately that is not the case. 

Dark Jezter isn't trying to be funny. He's long harbored some kind of contention about elves and the people he thinks of as elf fanboys, and he's been doing this little routine on this forum for years, although usualed couched as humor so he doesn't get moderators on his back. 

However, he rarely fails to jump into a thread where he can go nuts with elf-bashing, and he goes on about the same handful of perceived travesties post after post, year after year, and those are sure signs that his issue with elves is more than just passing bemusement. Those poll options? Really old material. I've run all of this pat him before, that maybe grinding the same axe for his whole life is kind of a waste of energy, and yet he still can't resist the gravity of this obsession.

Particularly curious, DJ cannot seem to get The Complete Book of Elves out of his head. The book came out in 1993 and he speaks about it like it was some highly relevant topic. He thinks that book is such an egregious travesty that it still bears discussion to this day, and can't conceive that there aren't scores of other people equally outraged.

The only surprising thing is that he hasn't mentioned anything about elf ninjas yet. He always does the elf ninja bit. 

At any rate, if it was just an elf-bashing thread, it might indeed be amusing, but there's the rub. He not only emjoys getting all the elf-bashers all stirred up, but he also wants to offend people who are fond of elves. This desire to offend is pretty heavily evidenced by the poll options he provides, particularly comments about elf fanboys and "the stupidest, most annoying MMORPG players". It is a mistake not to regard his poll as trolling.


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## Mark CMG (May 2, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> No, unfortunately that is not the case.
> 
> Dark Jezter isn't trying to be funny. He's long harbored some kind of contention about elves and the people he thinks of as elf fanboys, and he's been doing this little routine on this forum for years. He does usually try to make some effort to couch it as humor so he doesn't get moderators on his back for trolling.
> 
> ...





I think DJ secretly likes elves and dresses as one when he is at his computer.  He doth protest too much.


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## Dark Jezter (May 2, 2007)

I think Felon needs some Pamprin.


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## Felon (May 2, 2007)

Pamprin's good stuff. 

Hope this thread is enough to set you for a while. See you next time.


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## MerricB (May 2, 2007)

Elves suck for two reasons:

* Mialee artwork
* Inferior wizards in 3e (except for the Races of the Wild generalist wizard subst. level)

Cheers!


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## Olgar Shiverstone (May 2, 2007)

MerricB said:
			
		

> * Mialee artwork




Offset by the Todd Lockwood illo of the elf chick in the elven chain in the DMG:








Hubba Hubba.   Now we know where half-elves come from.


Dwarf women get no love since WotC shaved off all of their beards.


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## Felon (May 2, 2007)

MerricB said:
			
		

> Elves suck for two reasons:
> * Mialee artwork
> * Inferior wizards in 3e (except for the Races of the Wild generalist wizard subst. level)!



True, they do have a weak package, at least for their default favored class. I'd probably go with ranger myself, and strike the "wood elf" from the Monster Manual (which puts the half-orc's racial traits to shame).


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## frankthedm (May 2, 2007)

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> I think Felon needs some Pamprin.



 :\ You know the thread would have had a longer lifespan without that one...


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## Mark CMG (May 2, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> True, they do have a weak package





*Now*, who is bashing elves?


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## Moon-Lancer (May 2, 2007)

(Psi)SeveredHead said:
			
		

> That is part of the problem, not part of the solution.




and what "problem" would that be? keep in mind i liked ElfQuest back in the day, so magical divergence isn't a problem in my opinion. 




			
				MerricB said:
			
		

> Elves suck for two reasons:
> 
> * Mialee artwork
> * Inferior wizards in 3e (except for the Races of the Wild generalist wizard subst. level)
> ...




I so agree with you on this. Mialee art makes me want to puke. ug. Its not so much the art itself, its the core dzn really.


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## Felon (May 2, 2007)

frankthedm said:
			
		

> :\ You know the thread would have had a longer lifespan without that one...



Pretty mild response, actually.


			
				Mark CMG said:
			
		

> *Now*, who is bashing elves?



Not _that kind_ of package...


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## nambu96 (May 2, 2007)

I loves me some Complete Book Of Elves. Elves> Everyone else= Perfect


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## nambu96 (May 2, 2007)

Oh yeah....Hi new guy here...gettin back into D&D. Love this place and all of you people....oops sorry was that to Elvish (effeminate). Anyways we'll talk soon.


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## Nifft (May 2, 2007)

davidschwartznz said:
			
		

> Hollywood?




Similar, except of course that Gnomes control the media.

Cheers, -- N


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## hong (May 2, 2007)

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> Well, why do elves suck?



 Forrester did this better than you.


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## frankthedm (May 2, 2007)

I don't put too much blame on Bloom's portrayal of Legolas. I’ll blame those who don’t grasp Hollywood characters always auto succeed when the director want them to. Some systems and variants embrace that over the top crap, Core D&D does not. In Core D&D the Oliphant soaks up arrow after arrow due to HD and CON, takes his AoO, hits due to STR and BAB, nails the elf, grabs and does constrict damage and probably kills the elf archer in a round or two because the rest of the party is still on the wall.


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## kirinke (May 2, 2007)

Lol. I used to like elves, and generally played them or half-elves. Nowadays, I like the 0 LA Aasimar in FR. Now those are nice if ya like the play the goody-two shoe characters like I do.


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## Michael Silverbane (May 2, 2007)

I like elves.  I think they are cool.

I am reminded of the saying, "Don't hate me because I'm beautiful."

Later
silver


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## frankthedm (May 2, 2007)

Aeric said:
			
		

> Yeah, blood elves rock hard.  They have an awesome maniacal laugh and a class which is essentially an ur-priest version of the paladin.  Any race that has a sweatshop manned by sobbing gnomes and a spirit of light chained up in the temple basement whose power is regularly siphoned off is alright in my book.  _They_ are what evil elves should be, none of this drow nonsense.



Sounds almost Melnibonéan.


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## rounser (May 2, 2007)

I rather liked the liosalfar and dockalfar model for elves from the Dungeon magazine module "Legacy of the Liosalfar".  Tying elves closely to the seelie and unseelie courts makes for a refreshing change from Tolkienesque surface elves and Gygaxian drow.

As implied in "Legacy", dockalfar come with a PHD in unseelie deception and twisted cruelty, making even a single redcap elf potentially more villain than the PCs can handle.


----------



## Aust Diamondew (May 2, 2007)

I use to really like elves, then I tired of them.
For both RP and mechanical reasons, they're boring in both and actually weak mechanically (-2 con).

These days my races of choice are halfling, human and dwarf.  Mechanically interesting (albeit a little strong with the dwarf, and human is what you make of it) and fun to RP.

Edit: of course nearly any race can be fun, elves included, I'm just generalizing.


----------



## Doug McCrae (May 2, 2007)

DJ, you forgot one of the most important reasons - female elves can't have large breasts.


----------



## Dark Jezter (May 2, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> Forrester did this better than you.



 One of the greatest tragedies of the database crash of 2002 was the loss of Forrester's elf rant.


----------



## hong (May 2, 2007)

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> One of the greatest tragedies of the database crash of 2002 was the loss of Forrester's elf rant.



 Firebeetle does this better than you.


----------



## Dark Jezter (May 2, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> Firebeetle does this better than you.



 Crothian does this better than you.


----------



## hong (May 2, 2007)

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> Crothian does this better than you.



 No, _I_ do this better than you.


----------



## Moon-Lancer (May 2, 2007)

nm.


----------



## Dark Jezter (May 2, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> No, _I_ do this better than you.









Truly you have a dizzying intellect.


----------



## Moon-Lancer (May 2, 2007)

Doug McCrae said:
			
		

> DJ, you forgot one of the most important reasons - female elves can't have large breasts.




why not?


----------



## hong (May 2, 2007)

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

>











> Truly you have a dizzying intellect.




Yes, yes, I do. And I _still_ do this better than you.


----------



## Moon-Lancer (May 2, 2007)

wouldn't dpr weasley fall under the same category of why elves suck? I mean he is attractive, smart, strong, good with swords, slightly argent... ect... uber?

doesn't he just scream




"check me out"?

isent that why most people hate elves, for the very same reason weasley is awesome?


----------



## Demmero (May 2, 2007)

I just happen to be wearing my tie-dyed Eric Cartman "It's all a bunch of tree-huggin' hippie crap" T-shirt.  Guess how I voted


----------



## Moon-Lancer (May 2, 2007)

"The stupidist and most annoying MMORPG players are attracted to elves like moths to a lightbulb" ?   i kid i kid.


----------



## HeavenShallBurn (May 2, 2007)

*Why I Hate Elves*

I hate elves, I really do, or at least the modern post-Tolkien interpretation of "Elf" that has taken over pop-culture.  IMC the elves are the normal PHB race in a world of oddities, they're short-lived, genocidal racial-supremicists with a penchant for dictatorships and icky magical biotech.  The place of elves is taken by the Uhvi-Sidhe who are partially modelled off traditional fae, partially off Exalted Fae and partially off of Diskworld fae.  Even the best of them ricochet between maddeningly benificent and terrifying.

Regarding my take on traditional D&D elves I'm with this guy.



> Elves.
> 
> I hate elves. HATE Elves
> 
> ...




Also as one of the more reasonable furrys that the wierd ones give a bad name with their antics I apologize on their behalf.  I don't think they entirely realize what they're doing or how odd some of it is.


----------



## Moon-Lancer (May 2, 2007)

HeavenShallBurn said:
			
		

> I hate elves, I really do, or at least the modern post-Tolkien interpretation of "Elf" that has taken over pop-culture.




I don't mean to be a old stick in the mud, but if your talking about Tolkien and the word elf, he didn't exactly invent it, but he did make it widely popular. I saw a book that had the world elven or elves and its publish date was 1910'sh. I too thought elves was a word made by Tolkien, but it would seem he did not, or at least this book was published first, before the hobbit.

  It was about a guy who finds a elven babe in his fathers desk she takes him to underhill/fairy or something of that nature. I forget the name of it. I have it laying around here but I cant find it and I cant remember the name. The elves were tall and fare, so i don't think Tolkien has a monopoly in that department. He did do alot to popularize them and he did give them warrior features. 

anyway, um sorry for all the posts. i will shut up now and let everyone pretend to commit genocide and hate speech rhetoric. I will be someplace else pretending something else entirely.


----------



## EyeontheMountain (May 2, 2007)

Michael Silverbane said:
			
		

> I am reminded of the saying, "Don't hate me because I'm beautiful."
> 
> silver




I am reminded of the reply, "Ok, I'll hate you because you are a vain, self-centered XXXXXXX." 

This is in no way an attack at Silverbane.


----------



## GreatLemur (May 2, 2007)

frankthedm said:
			
		

> Yeah, D&D elves being only 5' tall kinda feels wierd. Being short does not help the _"Dude looks like a lady!"_ issue.
> 
> The Ads for WoW:BC have the malest elf i have ever seen.
> 
> ...



Have you seen 'em in game?  They are fancy, prancy ladyboys.


----------



## HeavenShallBurn (May 2, 2007)

Moon-Lancer said:
			
		

> I don't mean to be a old stick in the mud, but if your talking about Tolkien and the word elf, he didn't exactly invent it, but he did make it widely popular. I saw a book that had the world elven or elves and its publish date was 1910'sh. I too thought elves was a word made by Tolkien, but it would seem he did not, or at least this book was published first, before the hobbit.
> 
> It was about a guy who finds a elven babe in his fathers desk she takes him to underhill/fairy or something of that nature. I forget the name of it. I have it laying around here but I cant find it and I cant remember the name. The elves were tall and fare, so i don't think Tolkien has a monopoly in that department. He did do alot to popularize them and he did give them warrior features.




I don't and didn't think he invented the term but when he reinterpreted elves they became something very different.  In their place Tolkien elves are actually interesting but as they seeped into pop-culture and were twisted and copied hundreds of times they became something I just can't like.  I prefer the more traditional Sidhe interpretation.



			
				Moon Lancer said:
			
		

> anyway, um sorry for all the posts. i will shut up now and let everyone pretend to commit genocide and hate speech rhetoric. I will be someplace else pretending something else entirely.




I do tend to agree with the get rid of them theory but mostly because they've become sitflingly boring to me.  Mostly I just post that guy because he's so over the top with his hatred of elves it's funny.  And hey better a fictional genocidal hatred of a fictional species than real hatred or real genocide it probably helps the guy who originally posted it on the WoTC boards blow off steam.


----------



## MoogleEmpMog (May 2, 2007)

GreatLemur said:
			
		

> Have you seen 'em in game?  They are fancy, prancy ladyboys.




Maybe in WoW, but in the Frozen Throne, blood elves were wicked awesome.

Anyway, elves suck because they have -2 Con and a favored class that doesn't play to their racial strengths.

Other than that, I like elves - though I've always been partial to the more unpredictable, violently isolationist, untamed fey-style elves on the one hand and the well-meaning yet toweringly arrogant Spelljammer elven imperialists on the other.


----------



## frankthedm (May 2, 2007)

GreatLemur said:
			
		

> Have you seen 'em in game?  They are fancy, prancy ladyboys.



Sadly yes. 

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/burningcrusade/images/screenshots/ss13.jpg


----------



## blargney the second (May 2, 2007)

It's the plethora++ of subraces that gets my goat.
-blarg


----------



## jdrakeh (May 2, 2007)

Doug McCrae said:
			
		

> Elves suck because they were overpowered in 1e/2e, they're irritatingly perfect in Tolkien and they're a bunch of effeminate, arrogant hippies.




Agreed on all counts. Except they aren't hippies (if any D&D race is representative of hippie culture, it has to be the Hobbits Halflings with their communal living arrangements, fondness for pipes, and unfettered appetite). Elves are more like Green Peace (some of whom are hippies, but many of whom are merely radical causites).


----------



## Moon-Lancer (May 2, 2007)

in case anyone cares, i remember the name of the book. It was called Phantastes: a faerie romance by George Macdonald 1905. George Macdonald died in 1905, so I have no idea when he actually wrote the book. 

HeavenShallBurn, i know that you really didn't mean all of what you quoted, but gods, that guy was a tad unstable sounding.


----------



## Gerion of Mercadia (May 2, 2007)

Slipping into an old character of Mine... Arvenkiir of Celadonis...

****
It's Not elves that "suck" - it's the humans.

Humans have this uncouth unwarranted arrogance.  They think they know everything.  They say "Never in a thousand years", when they can't even BEGIN to comprehend how long a thousand years really is.  They think themselves "better" - more highly evolved than others - and they aren't even close.  They are incapable of appreciating the finer things in life... no sense of taste or refined things whatsoever.  Heck, the only thing the typical male human wants to do when they see an elf is try and "make love" to you, even if you aren't a female.  Probably why they can breed with orcs so well; despite their towns and cities they are just as barbaric and uncouth.  The human women... if you wanted to - ha, just walk into one of their taverns one evening.  The womenfolk will swoon over you if you treat em with any kind of dignity at all.  They are utterly incapable of percieving another's perspective.  

You see, orcs - at least they have an art.  Their canvas is flesh, the paint is blood, and their art is war.  Humans, they are too busy "adapting" to master ONE thing.  In every regard - they are SO third rate at best.  Most of the time - they aren't even on the scale.

When it comes to magic, they view spellcasting as little more than a set of tools to do certain things... they have no sense of the Art of Magic.  Trying to teach them? Pointless, they lack the patience and discipline to take a little at a time, and appreciate the whole.  They want what they want, when they want, how they want it, all the time.  Greedy, avaricious, self serving fools.  They bicker, whine and moan amongst themselves readily for no purpose whatsoever, unlike the other more civilized races who at least don't deplete their resources with infighting so the orcs and goblinkind don't overrun them.

At least they make for a good source of ready slave labor... they can be reasonably organized once made to appreciate their superiors.  All you have to do is divide them. Keep them divided - and you will conquer them one by one.

***


----------



## Kobold Avenger (May 2, 2007)

I don't hate elves, and do have some things about them that I like, but there still are many things out there included in the list that I hate them for.

One of them being that too many people just copy from Tolkien's elves and the other being certain fanboy elements.

I think they should honestly stop this whole race in decline thing, because they obviously aren't.  I wouldn't mind if they were closer to the Sidhe archetype, and were simply feytouched humans sort of divided between the seelie and unseelie courts (morally ambiguous version).  It makes them more interesting to me, because then you can play with a lot of other faerie politics and fey creatures.  

Secondly I don't mind this "elves are gay" thing, in any campaign I run, well all elves will indeed be gay (or at least bi) and it will be something mandated on all elf PCs.  Somehow I think that'll cut down on some of the bad fanboy elements (or maybe not).


----------



## Someone (May 2, 2007)

In my experience, no angsty drama queen, stupidly incompetent characters when it comes to do things related with the actual module the group is supposed to be playing, haunted with a dark past that spends hours at a time dissapearing without pevious notice and doing things totally not related with the current adventure's players are also attracted to elves like moths to the flame. Because the character described above isn't enough, and they also must be insufferably arrogant (when they are not tortured by angst)


----------



## StreamOfTheSky (May 2, 2007)

Elves suck because they rule flavor-wise.  It's a sad paradox.  Many people want to play an elf, but dwarves, not so much.  So, WotC puts an LA +1 or 2 package onto the dwarf and makes the elf mechanically inferior to a kobold as well as inferior to *nearly every other race in the game* at their favored class.

Also, many of your reasons for why elves suck are highly debateable.  Elves are elitist?  And the dwarves who think, "Aye, ye' weak-boweled humans can't hold yer liquor like a dwarf!  And ye' alcohol tastes like me' piss!" are not elitist, how?

What elves were like in previous editions shouldn't matter for a discussion of them in 3rd edition.  If you'd care to hold a discussion on why you hate them in a previous edition, feel free to start a thread about that, while I and and all others who never play in an earlier edition anymore can look at the thread and think, "Oh, that carries absolutely no relevance to me.  Moving on..."

Your entire opening post seemed to be an attempt at being inflamatory to me, but since a mod already posted in the thread without saying so, I guess I'm just interpretting your meaning wrong.


----------



## Plane Sailing (May 2, 2007)

The CON penalty


----------



## Plane Sailing (May 2, 2007)

My favourite fictional take on elves is probably from Terry Pratchetts discworld novel, 'Lords and Ladies'. That was a particularly nice spin on them.


----------



## Coplen (May 2, 2007)

I'm sure elven women suck?



















What?


----------



## victorysaber (May 2, 2007)

Kunimatyu said:
			
		

> My dislike of elves stems from the experiences I've had with elf-centric players.
> 
> In my experience, the people who play the Magical Immortal Pretty People almost exclusively tend to have serious self-esteem issues that I don't want anywhere near my campaign or my group of friends.
> 
> I have trouble grasping the mentality because I don't see the fun in playing such a wish-fulfillment character - I have more fun getting in the shoes of a flawed character who's different enough from me to be a change of pace.





Does anyone have elves in their campaign as the Magical Immortal Pretty People?


----------



## Gez (May 2, 2007)

victorysaber said:
			
		

> Does anyone have elves in their campaign as the Magical Immortal Pretty People?




Well, all the people that play in the Forgotten Realms, for example. And everyone else who abide by the cliché of elves as the "most ancient and powerful race." Why should fey-like, chaotic, whimsical eternal adolescents be the most powerful race anyway?

By the way, though I take the "most ancient and powerful" phrasing directly from Aeric, I think he didn't really mean it:



			
				Aeric said:
			
		

> They're too darn short.  I refuse to think of elves as the most ancient and powerful race when their biggest representitive only comes up to my chin.




Just take a look at his avatar.


----------



## EyeontheMountain (May 2, 2007)

StreamOfTheSky said:
			
		

> Also, many of your reasons for why elves suck are highly debateable.  Elves are elitist?  And the dwarves who think, "Aye, ye' weak-boweled humans can't hold yer liquor like a dwarf!  And ye' alcohol tastes like me' piss!" are not elitist, how?




Which would bother you more IRL? Some guy who said the same thing, or some dude who said he was better than you in every way? 

I rest me case, boyo


----------



## (Psi)SeveredHead (May 2, 2007)

Moon-Lancer said:
			
		

> and what "problem" would that be? keep in mind i liked ElfQuest back in the day, so magical divergence isn't a problem in my opinion.




I like Elfquest too, but they don't portray a thousand subraces in a role playing game, and if you look up, you'll see that "too many subraces" is tied for top place for why to hate elves (at the time of this posting).





> wouldn't dpr weasley fall under the same category of why elves suck? I mean he is attractive, smart, strong, good with swords, slightly argent... ect... uber?




You could say the same thing about Anakin Skywalker, but he isn't your "typical" human.



			
				GreatLemur said:
			
		

> Have you seen 'em in game? They are fancy, prancy ladyboys.




Blizzard had to make them more masculine; the previous model for males was so skinny you could literally see their digitized skeletons sometimes (which were just lines, but still...)



			
				Stream of the Sky said:
			
		

> And the dwarves who think, "Aye, ye' weak-boweled humans can't hold yer liquor like a dwarf! And ye' alcohol tastes like me' piss!" are not elitist, how?




Well first, dwarves don't insult humans on everything, and second, most humans can't hold alcohol as well as dwarves. That's tangible, as opposed to "I can make art better, magic better, swords better, and everything else than you" vibe that you get from an elf. I'd rather hang out with a surly dwarf than an uppity elf.

Here's the quote from Errant Story, stated by a half-elf, that I just stole from someone's signature: 







> “Nah, they're elves. Their warpgates would be, like, gigantic, with glowing symbols and crystal crap, trimmed in gold, and basically say "our form of instantaneous global travel is better than your form of instantaneous global travel."”




That's so like a stereotypical elf.


----------



## Kastil (May 2, 2007)

I made my world virtually elf-free.  They stay in their nancy woods and tree hump.  Period.  If my players insist on still playing one, they have to give me a damn good reason for it.  If they have got that far, then they have to realize wherever their character goes they will be discriminated against because elves are not well liked in the world.


----------



## Desdichado (May 2, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> Particularly curious, DJ cannot seem to get The Complete Book of Elves out of his head. The book came out in 1993 and he speaks about it like it was some highly relevant topic. He thinks that book is such an egregious travesty that it still bears discussion to this day, and can't conceive that there aren't scores of other people equally outraged.



I have vague memories of some big flamewar on the issue between the two of you a few years ago.  Am I remembering that correctly?  If so, I'd be careful about casting about the "can't let go of a grudge" accusation if I were you.


----------



## Dark Jezter (May 2, 2007)

Kastil said:
			
		

> I made my world virtually elf-free.  They stay in their nancy woods and tree hump.  Period.  If my players insist on still playing one, they have to give me a damn good reason for it.  If they have got that far, then they have to realize wherever their character goes they will be discriminated against because elves are not well liked in the world.



 Why must you always be so cool, Kastil? 

I once started work on a homebrew setting that didn't have elves, period.  In that particular setting, "elf" was just another word used to refer to fey creatures like dryads, nymphs, and sprites.


----------



## Odhanan (May 2, 2007)

LOL thanks for the laugh, DJ! The choices in the poll cracked me up! Nice way to start the day, I tell you!


----------



## recentcoin (May 2, 2007)

*Elves - The Other White Meat*

Elves don't suck.  You're not cooking them properly if you think that.  They're lean, low in cholesterol, and have less calories than say, orc or other red meat.  They're high in several essential amino acids.  Free range elves are leaner than commercially raised ones, but they also tend to be bonier and less tender.  


You should try a little olive oil and rosemary.  A hot skillet and they sear up nice and tender.  

If you don't like that, you could try crushing some whole black pepper, fresh flat leaf parsley, sage from the garden, fresh thyme, lemon basil, and coarse sea salt.  Mix it into some of that really thick yogurt.  Rub it all over the roast and pop it in the oven.  

You might also try a spicy marinade - fresh ginger, lime juice, black pepper, cilantro, and some chillies.  Soak over night and grill.


----------



## Kastil (May 2, 2007)

Demmero said:
			
		

> I just happen to be wearing my tie-dyed Eric Cartman "It's all a bunch of tree-huggin' hippie crap" T-shirt.  Guess how I voted



Oh Dem?  I forgot to tell you that you have to play an elf in my next campaign.   
You get the Fornicate with Tree Feat free at first level!


----------



## Kae'Yoss (May 2, 2007)

Elves don't nearly suck as bad as, say, trolls. Trolls have more sub-races than elves and dwarves combined (and that's a lot) and all of them are annoying. The hate troll subrace is among the worst. They should be exiled to the wizards boards.


----------



## Emirikol (May 2, 2007)

Elvthes sthuck.    Perchance it's because they can't hold their liquor...

I agree that "they're perfect and we're going to rub it in your face" situation of typical portrayal is what does it.


----------



## Flexor the Mighty! (May 2, 2007)

GreatLemur said:
			
		

> Have you seen 'em in game?  They are fancy, prancy ladyboys.




Yeah.  Blood Elfs make me wish I could freely attack fellow Horde characters.  

I'm more tired of them than anything.  I'm glad nobody took an elf in the latest D&D game.   I think a campaign plot will be the Orcs nearly exterminating the elf nation of Celene and the near dissapearance of the Elf.  I still want to use the plot point of Grummesh killing the elf main god.


----------



## Dark Jezter (May 2, 2007)

Emirikol said:
			
		

> Elvthes sthuck.    Perchance it's because they can't hold their liquor...



One of the only things that annoyed me about the extended edition of *The Return of the King* was the scene where Legolas out-drinks Gimli.  Elves should not be out-drinking dwarves.  It's like an unwritten law or something.

Peter Jackson is such an elf fanboy.  He even let himself get killed by Legolas in his cameo appearance.


----------



## Kastil (May 2, 2007)

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> Why must you always be so cool, Kastil?



Sweetheart, you're the reason I took a peek over here.


----------



## frankthedm (May 2, 2007)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> Yeah.  Blood Elfs make me wish I could freely attack fellow Horde characters.
> 
> I'm more tired of them than anything.



Could you elaborate on these issues with the blood elves? I don't play WOW so I am unfamiliar with the particulars of theirs.

Though I can see it would be way too easy to make an Inu-yasha clone or 10 with them.


----------



## Desdichado (May 2, 2007)

frankthedm said:
			
		

> Though I can see it would be way too easy to make an Inu-yasha clone or 10 with them.



I have no idea what that means.


----------



## Flexor the Mighty! (May 2, 2007)

frankthedm said:
			
		

> Could you elaborate on these issues with the blood elves? I don't play WOW so I am unfamiliar with the particulars of theirs.
> 
> Though I can see it would be way too easy to make an Inu-yasha clone or 10 with them.





1. They are sissy pretty boys. 
2. They, and the Alliance race of the last expansion, removed the biggest mechanical difference between sides.  Alliance had paladins, and the Horde had Shamen.  Now the Horde has not only elfs, but elf Paladins, and the Alliance has Shamen.


----------



## FickleGM (May 2, 2007)

Kae'Yoss said:
			
		

> Elves don't nearly suck as bad as, say, trolls. Trolls have more sub-races than elves and dwarves combined (and that's a lot) and all of them are annoying. The hate troll subrace is among the worst. They should be exiled to the wizards boards.



 Well, elves may not suck as bad as trolls, but at least you agree that elves suck...


----------



## Kae'Yoss (May 2, 2007)

FickleGM said:
			
		

> Well, elves may not suck as bad as trolls, but at least you agree that elves suck...




No, I don't. They don't. Those who can't handle them properly do.


----------



## Desdichado (May 2, 2007)

Kae'Yoss said:
			
		

> No, I don't. They don't. Those who can't handle them properly do.



Wow, no need to get insulting there Kae'Yoss.  It's not like you really are an elf or anything; it's nothing personal.  DJ--and apparently an awful, awful lot of other folks who play D&D too--just think they suck.

If you can't play nicely in threads where you disagree with the premise of the conversation, I'm afraid I'll be forced to start reporting your posts.  Really; it's for your own good.


----------



## Psion (May 2, 2007)

Hobo said:
			
		

> Wow, no need to get insulting there Kae'Yoss.  It's not like you really are an elf or anything; it's nothing personal.  DJ--and apparently an awful, awful lot of other folks who play D&D too--just think they suck.
> 
> If you can't play nicely in threads where you disagree with the premise of the conversation, I'm afraid I'll be forced to start reporting your posts.  Really; it's for your own good.




If you are concerned with reporting posts that insult others, you might want to with post 1. In case it escaped your attention, some poll choices ("Elf fanboys are are almost furry-like in their weirdness") are, if anything, more insulting than what you are responding to.


----------



## Flexor the Mighty! (May 2, 2007)

Psion said:
			
		

> If you are concerned with reporting posts that insult others, you might want to with post 1. In case it escaped your attention, some poll choices ("Elf fanboys are are almost furry-like in their weirdness") are, if anything, more insulting than what you are responding to.




Elf fans are great, but Elf fanboys on the other hand...


----------



## Desdichado (May 2, 2007)

Psion said:
			
		

> If you are concerned with reporting posts that insult others, you might want to with post 1. In case it escaped your attention, some poll choices ("Elf fanboys are are almost furry-like in their weirdness") are, if anything, more insulting than what you are responding to.



Ah, but they don't target anyone in particular though.  All you have to do to avoid insult is not self-identify as an elf fanboy, which I doubt most people would do.


----------



## Kae'Yoss (May 2, 2007)

Psion said:
			
		

> If you are concerned with reporting posts that insult others, you might want to with post 1. In case it escaped your attention, some poll choices ("Elf fanboys are are almost furry-like in their weirdness") are, if anything, more insulting than what you are responding to.




Well, there's a reason both the OP and this person are on my list (and if this one wasn't, the condescending "it's for your own good" crap would have accomplished it.)

Plus, I wasn't insulting. I was just stating facts. 

Fact is, there's nothing wrong with elves. Maybe the con penalty is punishing, but that doesn't mean you can't play an elf and have fun (if it is, it probably makes you a pure powergamer). 

The error lies with people: People who become raving fanboys (though they come in all flavours. There's RFs for dwarves, for Wizards, and so many other things. It's not limited to elves at all), people who use the race as an excuse to be a prick (again, nothing limited to elves. In fact, I saw it more often with dwarves personally), people who are blind to the real problem and start hating some piece of game rules instead of those abuse it, and start winding others up. 

If saying that hatemongering and flamebaiting sucks is insulting, then I guess I am insulting.


----------



## Desdichado (May 2, 2007)

Kae'Yoss said:
			
		

> Fact is, there's nothing wrong with elves.



How is that a fact, exactly?  Because--as you imply--anyone who doesn't like playing them must be a "pure powergamer?"

Or are you too busy publicly going over your Ignore list to see this question?


----------



## megamania (May 2, 2007)

For several reasons given and because they are just too damned popular.  Especially Drow which I am tired of and have never as of yet used or played.


----------



## Dimwhit (May 2, 2007)

Hobo said:
			
		

> How is that a fact, exactly?  Because--as you imply--anyone who doesn't like playing them must be a "pure powergamer?"




Of course it's fact Elves don't suck.

They blow.


----------



## Agent Oracle (May 2, 2007)

1.) "I'm an elf! i'm perfect!" (given, voted for)
Player 1) " I have flawless beautiful skin, and radient long golden hair that streams down my shoulders.  I have a little crown of daisies in my hair."
Player 2) "My paladin bows, and says 'Hail and well met, Madam elf'." 
Player 1) *narrows eyes* "Sir."

2.) I'm an elf, I'm Mighty!
Too many people seem to think elf = nigh-immortal ultra-powerful.  players of certain, other games tend to think that their 300 year old elf should be more powerful at 1st level than the 18 year-old 1st level human.  I dislike this intensly.

3.) Tree hugging hippy crap. (voted for)
Thank gods WotC has made elves environmentally neutral.  I occasionally throw an elven lumberjack into the mix to confuse tree-hugging hippy elf players.


----------



## diaglo (May 2, 2007)

Kurashu said:
			
		

> Let's start with why they don't suck...
> 
> They....um...err...make good....Spocks?



so your elves write books about how to raise children.

interesting.


----------



## diaglo (May 2, 2007)

Agent Oracle said:
			
		

> 3.) Tree hugging hippy crap. (voted for)
> Thank gods WotC has made elves environmentally neutral.  I occasionally throw an elven lumberjack into the mix to confuse tree-hugging hippy elf players.




the Original D&D elf was Neutral.


----------



## Dimwhit (May 2, 2007)

diaglo said:
			
		

> the Original D&D elf was Neutral.



 Yes, but OD&D sucks only slightly less than elves...

Edit: Will someone quote this? I think diaglo still has me on ignore.


----------



## Dark Jezter (May 2, 2007)

Dimwhit said:
			
		

> Yes, but OD&D sucks only slightly less than elves...
> 
> Edit: Will someone quote this? I think diaglo still has me on ignore.



 Covered.


----------



## GreatLemur (May 2, 2007)

frankthedm said:
			
		

> Could you elaborate on these issues with the blood elves? I don't play WOW so I am unfamiliar with the particulars of theirs.



Well, to start with the remedial stuff, _World of Warcraft_'s playable races are divided into two factions: The Horde and the Alliance.  The Horde originally included orcs, trolls, tauren (basically Native American minotaurs), and a "race" of intelligent undead called the Forsaken.  The Alliance originally included humans, night elves (tall, purple-skinned "wild elf" types), dwarves, and gnomes.  Since Alliance races tend to be prettier, there tend to be a lot more Alliance characters on any given server.  Also, for whatever reason, the Alliance seems to attract younger players, on average.

The recent release of the first WoW expansion, _The Burning Crusade_, added a new race to each faction.  The Horde got the blood elves, who are essentially a race of magic-addicted "high elf" types, and are considerably prettier-looking than the other Horde races.  The Alliance got the draenei, who have way more convoluted backstory than I'm gonna subject you to, but look much more _interesting_ than the other Alliance races.  This has caused some annoyance for Horde players who don't wanna see elves running around their cities, and who would love to play as draenei, but don't want to cross the faction line.

Also, as Flexor mentioned, the new races have access to character classes which were previously the exclusive property of the opposite faction, and that bugs some people a whole lot.

It's been theorized that giving the Horde a "pretty" race was a move calculated to balance faction populations a little bit, and thus help the Horde out in player-vs.-player competition.  Personally, I think the decision was at least _partly_ in response to WoW's huge popularity in Asia: The blood elves are kind of anime-looking, in a way.  Certainly, they're a lot closer to the character design you see in the _other_ MMORPG that dominates Korea, _Lineage 2_.

Incidentally, humans, night elves, and blood elves are currently the most popular races in WoW, while orcs and trolls are utterly neglected.  Damn, but people depress the hell out of me.


----------



## Desdichado (May 2, 2007)

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> Covered.



No good!  He's probably ignoring you too!


----------



## Desdichado (May 2, 2007)

In another version of this same conversation, the question came up: how do you fix elves?

I mean, I think the answer varies depending on what you think the most glaring problem with them is, but let's have some ideas for how to make the elves something other than annoying pretty people with a few warmed over bland Tolkien themes grafted on from time to time.


----------



## Kastil (May 2, 2007)

Wow.  I'm really amazed at how many people have come into a thread that stated "Elves Suck!" just to say "No they don't!  You're mean!".  Seriously... If you want to proclaim your love of elves, start your own thread instead of getting your panties in a bunch over what non-elf lovers have said in this one.


----------



## Dragonbait (May 2, 2007)

They are portrayed as perfect because Tolkien wanted them to be that way, and so many others have followed the pattern and frankly, we want to bang 'em. Why would we want to make something most people are attracted to anything but seemingly perfect?


----------



## Dimwhit (May 2, 2007)

Dragonbait said:
			
		

> They are portrayed as perfect because Tolkien wanted them to be that way, and so many others have followed the pattern and frankly, we want to bang 'em. Why would we want to make something most people are attracted to anything but seemingly perfect?



 I don't know, man, they look more like 9-year-old girls to me. And we all remember what that gets us around here...


----------



## Dark Jezter (May 2, 2007)

GreatLemur said:
			
		

> Well, to start with the remedial stuff, _World of Warcraft_'s playable races are divided into two factions: The Horde and the Alliance.  The Horde originally included orcs, trolls, tauren (basically Native American minotaurs), and a "race" of intelligent undead called the Forsaken.  The Alliance originally included humans, night elves (tall, purple-skinned "wild elf" types), dwarves, and gnomes.  Since Alliance races tend to be prettier, there tend to be a lot more Alliance characters on any given server.  Also, for whatever reason, the Alliance seems to attract younger players, on average.
> 
> The recent release of the first WoW expansion, _The Burning Crusade_, added a new race to each faction.  The Horde got the blood elves, who are essentially a race of magic-addicted "high elf" types, and are considerably prettier-looking than the other Horde races.  The Alliance got the draenei, who have way more convoluted backstory than I'm gonna subject you to, but look much more _interesting_ than the other Alliance races.  This has caused some annoyance for Horde players who don't wanna see elves running around their cities, and who would love to play as draenei, but don't want to cross the faction line.
> 
> ...



 Great post.  I would also like to note that this isn't exclusive to World of Warcraft either; in any fantasy MMORPG, the "pretty" races (usually humans and elves) are inevitably the most popular, which also means that they attract the youngest and most immature players.  I have a friend who played Alliance when WoW first came out, and then eventually created a Horde character.  He noticed almost immediately that there were a lot fewer immature Horde players than Alliance players.

Although this is no longer true now that *The Burning Crusade* has been released.  Now there's a bunch of jackass Blood Elf players running around in Horde cities.


----------



## jasin (May 2, 2007)

Hobo said:
			
		

> Ah, but they don't target anyone in particular though.  All you have to do to avoid insult is not self-identify as an elf fanboy, which I doubt most people would do.



Equally, you just have to not self-identify as someone who can't handle elves properly to avoid being insulted by Kae'Yoss's "They don't [suck]. Those who can't handle them properly do."

Can _you_ handle elves properly?


----------



## Dragonbait (May 2, 2007)

Dimwhit said:
			
		

> I don't know, man, they look more like 9-year-old girls to me. And we all remember what that gets us around here...




A TV spot on _To Catch a Predator_?


----------



## Desdichado (May 2, 2007)

jasin said:
			
		

> Equally, you just have to not self-identify as someone who can't handle elves properly to avoid being insulted by Kae'Yoss's "They don't [suck]. Those who can't handle them properly do."
> 
> Can _you_ handle elves properly?



D'oh!


----------



## Doug McCrae (May 2, 2007)

GreatLemur said:
			
		

> Personally, I think the decision was at least _partly_ in response to WoW's huge popularity in Asia: The blood elves are kind of anime-looking, in a way.  Certainly, they're a lot closer to the character design you see in the _other_ MMORPG that dominates Korea, _Lineage 2_.



I read somewhere that the Horde races are actually a lot more popular in Asia. Apparently they prefer monstrous looking characters.


----------



## GreatLemur (May 2, 2007)

Doug McCrae said:
			
		

> I read somewhere that the Horde races are actually a lot more popular in Asia. Apparently they prefer monstrous looking characters.



That comes as a huge shock, from everything I thought I understood about Asian nerds.  Interesting.

Damn, and the WoW census tool doesn't seem to include Asian servers, just US and European.  Unfortunate.


----------



## (Psi)SeveredHead (May 2, 2007)

Hobo said:
			
		

> In another version of this same conversation, the question came up: how do you fix elves?
> 
> I mean, I think the answer varies depending on what you think the most glaring problem with them is, but let's have some ideas for how to make the elves something other than annoying pretty people with a few warmed over bland Tolkien themes grafted on from time to time.




From a flavor point of view, Eberron did a great job. There's only one elven race (the drow don't count, and they're also different).

Elves are generally either Valenar or Aerenal. Valenar elves revere their warlike ancestors and try to emulate and do better than their deeds. They *deliberately* provoke other races to war just to prove their uber-ness, and have performed despicable acts like slaughtering human refugees. The typical NPC Valenar is a bit overlevelled, but they're not the typical 15th-level drow found in FR so it's not too bad.

The Aerenal literally worship their ancestors; their "god" is called the Undying Court and consists of their "undying" ancestors. Elves can and will literally pay visits to their great-great-great-great grandmothers, for instance. Together the Undying Court is as powerful as a deity and has managed to fend off dragon attacks, but it never leaves Aerenal and doesn't adventure; individually they're around CR 9 (lower tier) or CR I forget (higher tier, below CR 20). There's nothing to indicate they have more levels than anyone else and are definitely not "cute tree-huggers". Maybe they do tend to disdain other races, but then they live on an island by themselves and will be much more humble when outnumbered by members of other races (well, they better be!).

There's no elven pantheon; an elf is totally free to worship anyone among the Sovereign Nine, for instance, so evil elven clerics can exist.

Elves from the human lands are called "Khorvaire elves" and don't seem to act snooty.

The drow don't worship their own pantheon, instead worshipping "the Dark Six" or Khyber if evil or something else if not evil... their culture isn't monolithic. A good-aligned drow isn't at all unusual but they're not going to be angsty heroes and they stick to Xen'drik (they're not a PC race in the Eberron Campaign Setting).


----------



## Sejs (May 3, 2007)

Hobo said:
			
		

> In another version of this same conversation, the question came up: how do you fix elves?




Pretty simple - doesn't even need a mechanical fix.  


Take 'em back to their more fey roots.


More wild and chaotic.  Fickle, passionate, and perpetually living in the now.  The old school kind of elves that would try to chase down a deer unarmed, get drunk off their ass under the stars and screw on a whim.  Ones that don't care if Everything Was Better Before, because frankly, they can hardly remember it anyway.


----------



## WonderRat (May 3, 2007)

Sejs said:
			
		

> Pretty simple - doesn't even need a mechanical fix.
> 
> 
> Take 'em back to their more fey roots.
> ...




Playing them like that could be fun.

Kinda odd I am annoyed by both ends of the spectrum. Either they are simply humans with pointy ears or just act goofy. Not as much not a very alien culture, but more like some sorta pseudo-Celtic stereotypes. I suppose overall I don't think elves suck, I just find their stereotype even more annoying then the cookie cutter copies of the other races.


----------



## mhacdebhandia (May 3, 2007)

I don't like elves because of Tolkien. He did it, so everyone does it; and either they're just like his, only less well-conceived . . . or they're a lot more interesting than his, but would be even better if they weren't elves at all.

Everything else - stupid MMO players, drooling fanboys, things made by elves rawking hardcore . . . it all comes from Tolkien and his imitators with their Ubermenschen.


----------



## Moon-Lancer (May 3, 2007)

mhacdebhandia said:
			
		

> I don't like elves because of Tolkien. He did it, so everyone does it; and either they're just like his, only less well-conceived . . . or they're a lot more interesting than his, but would be even better if they weren't elves at all.
> 
> Everything else - stupid MMO players, drooling fanboys, things made by elves rawking hardcore . . . it all comes from Tolkien and his imitators with their Ubermenschen.




Its one thing to say that you don't like immature players who are fans of elves. 

Its another thing to say that this is Tolkien's fault. I think that is ignorent. He made dwarves what they are today too, he also made halfings (now they are all copies of Bilbo only more attractive)... what does that say about them? he dident just set the foreground for d&d, also set the background. Stupid magic rings and old temples!!!!! stupid demons coming from forgotten cities!!!! Stupid ancient evil!!!! stupid Wizard with swords!!!!


----------



## Moon-Lancer (May 3, 2007)

Perhaps I have been saved. I don't play mmorpg's so I dont know these raving fan boys. Nore do I know very many gamers so I don't know any elven fan boys personally. in fact i have never EVER seen or met one online or otherwise. I have however met lots of people that think dwarves or halflings are somehow better then sliced bread though. I don't hold it against them.


----------



## WonderRat (May 3, 2007)

Moon-Lancer said:
			
		

> Perhaps I have been saved. I don't play mmorpg's so I dont know these raving fan boys. Nore do I know very many gamers so I don't know any elven fan boys personally. in fact i have never EVER seen or met one online or otherwise. I have however met lots of people that think dwarves or halflings are somehow better then sliced bread though. I don't hold it against them.




I haven't met many halfling fanboys, but I have met plenty of dwarf fanboys. I can't say I like the dwarf stereotype much either.  And where is the love for gnomes? Honestly I think the only elf fanboys I have seen online are really more like otherkin then simply folks who really love elves.


----------



## Dark Jezter (May 3, 2007)

Moon-Lancer said:
			
		

> Its one thing to say that you don't like immature players who are fans of elves.
> 
> Its another thing to say that this is Tolkien's fault. I think that is ignorent. He made dwarves what they are today too, he also made halfings (now they are all copies of Bilbo only more attractive)... what does that say about them? he dident just set the foreground for d&d, also set the background. Stupid magic rings and old temples!!!!! stupid demons coming from forgotten cities!!!! Stupid ancient evil!!!! stupid Wizard with swords!!!!



 Just a nitpick, but Gary Gygax has publicly stated more than once that Robert E. Howard, Jack Vance, and Fritz Leiber were much bigger influences on the creation of D&D than Tolkien was.


----------



## mhacdebhandia (May 3, 2007)

Hobo said:
			
		

> In another version of this same conversation, the question came up: how do you fix elves?
> 
> I mean, I think the answer varies depending on what you think the most glaring problem with them is, but let's have some ideas for how to make the elves something other than annoying pretty people with a few warmed over bland Tolkien themes grafted on from time to time.



Play games set in Eberron.


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## mhacdebhandia (May 3, 2007)

Moon-Lancer said:
			
		

> Its one thing to say that you don't like immature players who are fans of elves.
> 
> Its another thing to say that this is Tolkien's fault. I think that is ignorent. He made dwarves what they are today too, he also made halfings (now they are all copies of Bilbo only more attractive)... what does that say about them? he dident just set the foreground for d&d, also set the background. Stupid magic rings and old temples!!!!! stupid demons coming from forgotten cities!!!! Stupid ancient evil!!!! stupid Wizard with swords!!!!



Excuse me, but that's a wagonload of crap.

Okay, first you assume that I like dwarves and halflings. I don't. Dwarves are less boring than elves, but hobbity halflings are actually worse.

Second, *everything* you mention after that ignores the fact that Gary Freaking Gygax didn't take his inspirations from Tolkien - he took them from Jack Vance, Fritz Leiber, Robert E. Howard, *all of whom* were writing sword-and-sorcery tales before Tolkien started up the high fantasy genre - and I *personally* think D&D is better with more _Weird Tales_ and less _The Lord of the Rings_.


----------



## Moon-Lancer (May 3, 2007)

well i mean not to offend, but i didn't imply you were a fan of dwarves and halfings. I'm saying I have known people to be fans of dwarves and halfings. 

Most of my message was not meant to imply anything about you and if thats how it came across, then i'm sorry. 

just becuse Gary _Freaking_   Gygax says what influence him, this does not mean it was so. 

halfings at the time of od&d were called Hobbits. That is purely from lotr. Orc is also strait out of lotr. G&G had a law suit hanging over his head. do you think it was in his best interest to say d&d was based off lord of the rings? hobbits were changed to halfings. 

Does anyone have a good case as to how d&d isn't like lord of the rings and what books influenced it more? I don't put much faith into what G&G says. I look at the final product, and just its names is very telling.


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## Kae'Yoss (May 3, 2007)

Moon-Lancer said:
			
		

> Perhaps I have been saved. I don't play mmorpg's so I dont know these raving fan boys.




I don't do, either. Those I know who do let me shy away from it. I won't say that all MMORPG players are like this, but it seems that the worst ones live around here.



> Nore do I know very many gamers so I don't know any elven fan boys personally. in fact i have never EVER seen or met one online or otherwise.




I don't know too many, but it is three gaming groups worth of people who play(ed) D&D, all in all 20 or more people I'd say. There were one or two people who tended to play somewhat annoying elves, but, seriously, they tended to play somewhat annoying anything.



> I have however met lots of people that think dwarves or halflings are somehow better then sliced bread though. I don't hold it against them.




I did have my share of those raving dwarf fanboys. Abusing the ridiculously overpowered 3e stats, abusing the racial background to play antisocial characters and get on everyone's nerves, and so on.

But you don't see me going around saying everyone who likes dwarves is a raving dwarf fanboy or anything.


----------



## Sejs (May 3, 2007)

Kae'Yoss said:
			
		

> Everyone who likes dwarves is a raving dwarf fanboy.




!!!


I can't believe you said that, Kae'Yoss!


----------



## babomb (May 3, 2007)

barrowwight said:
			
		

> because they aren't dwarves.




Quoted for truth.


----------



## Set (May 3, 2007)

I like *Sejs* comment above about making them more chaotic and fey.

The elves of Evermeet and Spelljammer and Eberron and even Menzoberranzan are described as almost uber-lawful.  They're either tightly organized, or completely bound into a caste system, or fanatical followers of 'the Way of Lolth' or something.  It's completely counter to what I think of as 'chaotic.'

From the old stories, elves were described as fickle.  They followed rules, but they weren't rules that men could understand, and one minute they'd seem friendly and whimsical, and the next they'd be killing your cattle and kidnapping your children.

The most interesting role-playing of elves I've seen was a time they were portrayed as fickle fey, almost as much like sharks as people.  An elven warrior would wander the world, matching his blade against any threat, just to prove his own skill.  He would drink and laugh and party, but he was a complete hair-trigger.  His emotions, wild and fey, were vastly stronger than those of humans.  He would laugh himself sick, sometimes at a joke that didn't seem that funny (but, to his century old perspective, was hilarious).  He would fall madly passionately in love with someone he saw at a distance, and be obsessed with her, only to lose interest and wander away.  He would grow violent in a second, having taken offense so quickly that he'd go from laughing to drawing his blade and attacking so quickly that his drinking companion would have a sword lodged in his throat before he even realized that he'd said something to set the elf off.

And, just as quickly, he'd be overcome with wrenching sadness and regrets, and have to be all-but carried away.  The elf lived life entirely in the moment.  No past.  No future.  He had been living that way for centuries, and unless he got himself killed, he'd likely continue to do so for centuries more.  The idea of trying to remember the past, or plan for the future, was an alien concept for him.  He'd been around longer than many human *nations,* and, particularly in a setting like the Realms, he'd live to piss on the graves of many of the gods.  Why plan for the future?  You can't control it.  Save all your money, see it become worthless with the collapse of the monarchy.  Invest in wheat, and a crop blight destroys it.  Build a city, only to see it burn.

The great elven secret was that life was there to be experienced, not studied.


----------



## Infernal Teddy (May 3, 2007)

Set, that was a great mine of ideas, mind if I borrow?


----------



## Set (May 3, 2007)

Infernal Teddy said:
			
		

> Set, that was a great mine of ideas, mind if I borrow?




Always.  If I posted it, it's free to use.


----------



## Infernal Teddy (May 3, 2007)

Domo!


----------



## Desdichado (May 3, 2007)

mhacdebhandia said:
			
		

> Second, *everything* you mention after that ignores the fact that Gary Freaking Gygax didn't take his inspirations from Tolkien - he took them from Jack Vance, Fritz Leiber, Robert E. Howard, *all of whom* were writing sword-and-sorcery tales before Tolkien started up the high fantasy genre - and I *personally* think D&D is better with more _Weird Tales_ and less _The Lord of the Rings_.



I think Gary Freaking Gygax can be full of crap too I imagine--but it's not necessary here since you're misquoting him and misrepresenting him in this case.  It's true that he said that he greatly preferred the pulp style sword & sorcery tales of folks like Howard or Leiber.  It's also true that much of the tone and feel of D&D is more like that than Lord of the Rings, especially in many of its early publications.  However, much of the flavor and superficial detail is *exactly* like Tolkien's work, and Gary Freaking Gygax himself said that he did that on purpose.


----------



## Baby Samurai (May 3, 2007)

I went for Favoured Class: Wizard

I mean, if elves are so inherently magical and charismatic, I’m thinking sorcerer…


----------



## Gez (May 3, 2007)

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> One of the only things that annoyed me about the extended edition of *The Return of the King* was the scene where Legolas out-drinks Gimli.  Elves should not be out-drinking dwarves.  It's like an unwritten law or something.
> 
> Peter Jackson is such an elf fanboy.  He even let himself get killed by Legolas in his cameo appearance.




And apparently, he never read The Hobbit, where a bunch of elves (of the exact same ethnie as Legolas, they're his kins) get completely drunk on _HUMAN_ wine (no silliness about "feywine" or whatever that's more potent than what mere mortals can stand), so drunk that Bilbo manages to free the dwarves from their prison cells.



			
				Hobo said:
			
		

> In another version of this same conversation, the question came up: how do you fix elves?



You can't. It's a problem of how they're perceived. Only thing you can use is succeed at making an influential portrayal of them that's different from the cliché.

Take a look at D&D elves. Alright, they're chaotic good, they're rather short, and they're not immortal. They aren't any smarter or wiser than humans or dwarves or gnomes. A bit more graceful, true, but they're also more frail. Those points are practically constant (yeah, only exception is that they're lawful when there's only the law-chaos axis and chaos is used to mean evil).

Now that the rules are covered, look at what the writers made about them, in the settings. Rigid caste society here. Uber ancient and powerful kingdom with unchanging traditions there. The best wizards here and there. Even though in AD&D they were limited to something like level 15 max. Tall. Well built. Resist poisons, diseases, and strong alcohol better than humans and even dwarves. Have basic telepathy. Learn how to speak in the womb. Never really die, instead planeshifting directly to Arvandor or whatever when they're too bored of hte world to stay any longer. And all that crap.

You can't fix them if you don't work directly on the setting.



			
				Dragonbait said:
			
		

> They are portrayed as perfect because Tolkien wanted them to be that way



They weren't perfect in Tolkien's portrayal. They're pretty, yeah. But they're selfish, terribly selfish. And ultimately, they're not loved by Eru as much as humans are, because humans get to go beyond the Tir-na-nog clone when they die, while elves don't.



			
				Sejs said:
			
		

> More wild and chaotic.  Fickle, passionate, and perpetually living in the now.  The old school kind of elves that would try to chase down a deer unarmed, get drunk off their ass under the stars and screw on a whim.  Ones that don't care if Everything Was Better Before, because frankly, they can hardly remember it anyway.



Exactly. At the very least, the wood/wild elves should be like that.


----------



## Dragonbait (May 3, 2007)

Gez said:
			
		

> They weren't perfect in Tolkien's portrayal. They're pretty, yeah. But they're selfish, terribly selfish. And ultimately, they're not loved by Eru as much as humans are, because humans get to go beyond the Tir-na-nog clone when they die, while elves don't.




Meh. What's one more innacurate and negative generalization amongst so many on these kind of threads?


----------



## Dark Jezter (May 3, 2007)

Gez said:
			
		

> And apparently, he never read The Hobbit, where a bunch of elves (of the exact same ethnie as Legolas, they're his kins) get completely drunk on _HUMAN_ wine (no silliness about "feywine" or whatever that's more potent than what mere mortals can stand), so drunk that Bilbo manages to free the dwarves from their prison cells.




It's interesting, really:  In *The Hobbit* the elves were thoroughly silly; they'd sing bad poetry and get drunk on wine.  But when Tolkien wrote *The Lord of the Rings*, elves suddenly became too dignified and pious for such nonsense.


----------



## Nyeshet (May 3, 2007)

I find it interesting that the only real reason listed for elves being subpar (having Wizard as a favored class) is second lowest on the pole - lowest, actually, if you exclude the "other" category.


----------



## Kae'Yoss (May 3, 2007)

Sejs said:
			
		

> !!!
> 
> I can't believe you said that, Kae'Yoss!




Had to be said. And you know what? They all saw Snow White 1000 times and still cry when she eats that apple   !


----------



## Desdichado (May 3, 2007)

Nyeshet said:
			
		

> I find it interesting that the only real reason listed for elves being subpar (having Wizard as a favored class) is second lowest on the pole - lowest, actually, if you exclude the "other" category.



I'm not sure what you mean or why that's interesting.  The text answers are presumably for "other" responses and/or other discussion, so why would there need to be a lot of discussion around items that score higher on the poll?

For that matter, favored class is also the easiest thing to fix.  I think it's been 5-6 years now since I decided that I was going to completely ignore the favored class rules and allow players to take levels in whatever classes they wanted to.


----------



## Doug McCrae (May 3, 2007)

mhacdebhandia said:
			
		

> Gary Freaking Gygax didn't take his inspirations from Tolkien




Halflings (actually called hobbits in the original game until the Tolkien estate got wind of it)
Orcs
Half-orcs
Long-lived elves that use bows, live in the woods in harmony with nature and have pointy ears
Dour, avaricious dwarves
Half-elves
Rangers
Balor = Balrog
Wights
Iuz = Sauron
Iuz (the country) = Mordor
Adventuring party = Fellowship of the Ring
Dungeon crawl = Mines of Moria sequence in LotR


----------



## Dark Jezter (May 3, 2007)

Doug McCrae said:
			
		

> Adventuring party = Fellowship of the Ring
> Dungeon crawl = Mines of Moria sequence in LotR




Read some Howard, Vance, or Lieber.  The concepts of adventuring parties and dungeon crawls existed long before LotR was ever published.


----------



## Doug McCrae (May 3, 2007)

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> Read some Howard, Vance, or Lieber.  The concepts of adventuring parties and dungeon crawls existed long before LotR was ever published.



Give examples from the authors you mentioned.


----------



## Gez (May 3, 2007)

Doug McCrae said:
			
		

> Long-lived elves that use bows, live in the woods in harmony with nature and have pointy ears



Where did Tolkien say elves had pointy ears, again? (Related question, where did Tolkien say orcs were green? But there's fewer people thinking green orcs originated from LotR.)


----------



## Desdichado (May 3, 2007)

Gez said:
			
		

> Where did Tolkien say elves had pointy ears, again? (Related question, where did Tolkien say orcs were green? But there's fewer people thinking green orcs originated from LotR.)



Ironically, the orcs being green has more basis in Tolkien than pointy eared elves.  He did describe at least some them more than once as "sallow" skinned.

Which I don't think should be taken to mean that they're literally green, but at least it's not too far a stretch.


----------



## Dark Jezter (May 3, 2007)

Doug McCrae said:
			
		

> Give examples from the authors you mentioned.



 You're joking, right?

Fritz Leiber created the original adventuring team, Fafhrd and Grey Mouser.  And Conan was going through dungeons containing monsters and traps 20 years before LotR was written.  The Conan story *Red Nails* is pretty much one great big dungeon crawl.


----------



## Doug McCrae (May 3, 2007)

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> Fritz Leiber created the original adventuring team, Fafhrd and Grey Mouser.



Why not cite Gilgamesh and Enkidu, if all it takes is a duo?

The Fellowship looks a lot more like the typical D&D party to me. For one thing, there are more than two of them. Also the variety of races is Tolkienesque. Leiber and Howard's heroes are all human.

I was thinking of the Mines of Moria as a dungeon crawl in the sense that a whole adventuring party goes underground and encounters monsters. Of course there are plenty of prior examples of individual heroes doing this, such as the story of Orpheus, but not gangs. The only other example I know of is Merritt's The Moon Pool, which is listed in the 1e AD&D bibliography.


----------



## Dark Jezter (May 3, 2007)

Doug McCrae said:
			
		

> Why not cite Gilgamesh and Enkidu, if all it takes is a duo?




Maybe I will.  I could also state Jason and the Argonauts as an example of an adventuring party.

The point stands:  Tolkien did not invent the concept of adventuring parties.


----------



## Moon-Lancer (May 4, 2007)

but d&d took from lotr the iconic adventuring parties we have today, were the wizard is the strongest, and that alone has had a profound impact on d&d


----------



## Mycanid (May 4, 2007)

Hmm ... has the thread turned into an anti-JRRT thread?

I thought it was elves in general we were speaking of. Oh well.  :\


----------



## Moon-Lancer (May 4, 2007)

thats my fault, i think. I am not sorry that this thread is changed from what it started out to be though. 


anyway, about the ear thing...

in the ETYMOLOGIES Tolkien says this.  The Quendian ears were more pointed and leaf-shaped than [?human]. 

Tolkien's sun could not read his fathers handwriting [?human], so we know that elven ears were more pointed then "something"

also he describes them as having a leaf shape, but some leaves look like human ears so hard to definitively tell what he meant by this. But to say they were "described" as being exactly like human ears is false.

*Ah edit*

i see what you mean now, I dont know. People tend to lay the hate on Tolkien when they blindly rant about elves.


----------



## questing gm (May 4, 2007)

Elves suck if the DM says so...and i know one DM who has a hostile apathy for them, he says he blame the BoEF...

and about fixing them, well...

I made the elves in my homebrew more primal in nature, living in the woods as nomads and using primitive weapons like bows. The humans are the ones that are subjugating them with their high order and civilization.


----------



## molonel (May 4, 2007)

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> The point stands:  Tolkien did not invent the concept of adventuring parties.




The fact that he didn't invent the concept has no bearing on where his influence flowed from.

And I think it's awfully hard to argue that the totally human duo of Fritz's Leiber's books is more like the average D&D party than the Fellowship of the Ring.

It's also a LOT harder to argue that Conan, who was largely a solo adventurer, bore more of a resemblance than the Fellowship (wizard, elf, dwarf, human ranger, halfling rogues/scouts).

There is saying, and there is doing. D&D is heavily, HEAVILY influenced by Tolkien. In 1st Edition AD&D, prior to the release of Unearthed Arcana, you could only be a human ranger (Aragorn). There were treants (ents), balors (balrogs), half-elves.

Show me where these things flowed from the Conan stories, and I'll concede the point.

Heck, barbarians as a class didn't even show up until Unearthed Arcana.


----------



## Dimwhit (May 4, 2007)

questing gm said:
			
		

> he says he blame the BoEF...




Ah, the Book of Elf Porn. If anything, that should make someone more inclined to LIKE Elves...


----------



## frankthedm (May 4, 2007)

Make em 1/2 a foot taller taller than humans, 
Change the -2 Con to -2 Wis
-5% Arcane failure rate for worn armor
Drop the secret door BS
Drop bonus weapons
Favored class:any arcane spellcaster


----------



## mhacdebhandia (May 4, 2007)

Moon-Lancer said:
			
		

> well i mean not to offend, but i didn't imply you were a fan of dwarves and halfings. I'm saying I have known people to be fans of dwarves and halfings.
> 
> Most of my message was not meant to imply anything about you and if thats how it came across, then i'm sorry.
> 
> ...



If you knew more about the beginnings of D&D, you'd realise how much was drawn from non-_Lord of the Rings_ sources (for instance, the _prismatic spray_ spell is literally straight from the Excellent Prismatic Spray in Jack Vance's Dying Earth stories) . . . *and* that it was Dave Arneson's suggestion that Tolkien elements be included, to capture his fanbase.

You know what elements of D&D come from Tolkien? You named nearly half of them - halflings, orcs, elves. The other four? Rangers (_a la_ Aragorn), treants (originally ents), goblins, and the balor (based on the Balrog).

That's it. I'm not giving you dwarves, dragons, groups of adventurers, dungeons, any of that. There's precedent in mythology, folklore, and other writers for all of it.


----------



## Moon-Lancer (May 4, 2007)

well lotr made the iconic d&d adventuring party, not the idea of a group itself. And far as d&ds iconic dwarves go, isn't that just Gimli? We all know that all red dragons are smog. 

Its not fair to say folk lore is the sources when its clear that d&d and lotr both came to alot of the same conclusions? me thinks that Tolkien or at least the end product of d&d merely looked at what influenced Tolkien and listed that. 

Im not saying d&d IS lotr, but to say that d&d bares not resemblance to it is a far fetched, considering alot of the base classes and races are strait from lotr.

If you have other sources to contribute and how that influenced d&d i am very welcome to hear of it, but so I only have have prismatic spry on that list.


----------



## mhacdebhandia (May 4, 2007)

No-one said that _The Lord of the Rings_ didn't influence _Dungeons & Dragons_. What I flatly deny - because it's simply a bunch of crap - is that idea that Tolkien is responsible for everything:



> he dident just set the foreground for d&d, also set the background. Stupid magic rings and old temples!!!!! stupid demons coming from forgotten cities!!!! Stupid ancient evil!!!! stupid Wizard with swords!!!!



Tolkien's magic ring comes straight outta Wagner, and his dwarves are Germanic/Norse.

Are there even any old temples anywhere in Tolkien? In any case, you talk about "old temples", "demons" and "forgotten cities" and anyone who knows anything about the history of fantasy knows that Robert E. Howard, Jack Vance, and Fritz Leiber - among others - were writing about that long before Tolkien.

Howard and Leiber wrote in the Thirties, and the first Dying Earth book by Vance was published in 1950, before the first publication of _The Lord of the Rings_ (albeit well after _The Hobbit_ in 1937, but then that book is less D&Dish than the trilogy proper).

Ancient evil is a pretty nebulous concept to be identifying as an element of _D&D_ that comes from Tolkien. There's no Sauron in Greyhawk - the closest thing, Iuz, is only superficially similar, in that he's an evil overlord ruling a kingdom, but he's more like a god- or demon-king than Sauron. The great evil powers of the earliest D&D sources have more to do with mythological and sword-and-sorcery antagonists than anything else. Lovecraft, too - Tharizdun, for instance.

As for wizards with swords, come on! Wizards couldn't even *use* swords until Third Edition, for the gods' sake.

The concept of memorising spells comes directly from Jack Vance's Dying Earth stories, as do spells like _prismatic spray_ and others. Barbarians are pretty clearly inspired by Conan and others, including Fafhrd from Leiber's stories. Reptile- and frog-men come from Howard and other sword-and-sorcery types, too. D&D thieves are way more influenced by Leiber's Gray Mouser than by the hobbits.

The D&D paladin, swanmay, and troll come from _Three Hearts and Three Lions_ by Poul Anderson. The original Law - Neutrality - Chaos alignment axis comes from that story and from Michael Moorcock's Elric stories and other Eternal Champion multiverse tales.


----------



## Dark Jezter (May 4, 2007)

It's too bad that you can't fork threads here like you can at Circvs Maximvs, because this thread is seriously getting derailed (which I, admittedly, contributed to).


----------



## wildstarsreach (May 4, 2007)

If you use the suggested FAQ for the change in favored class as Duskblade, then the suck less.  The PrC Bladesinger sucks sor the Gish  and the EK builds are power flavor rather than theme.  I find that even though the Duskblade is powerful, it is relative at certain levels.  3-8 and 13-15.  After  that it begins to be seriously deluted.


----------



## Moon-Lancer (May 4, 2007)

surly you jest... and just where would this thread lead if it had not? a romantic story about a fictional holocaust? sorry i just find it hard to believe that this thread was leading someplace that wasen't a overheated inferno. anyway um sorry about the mess.    

mhacdebhandia, i respect what you say, and I think that you are right for the most part. However I also think though that their would have not been a want or a will to find these forgotten tombs, had Tolkien not popularized fantasy. I do think though Tolkien had great influence in leading path to these older stories. I think he played a large role in create the want for d&d with elves, dwarvs, and wizards. I think he had great influence regardless if he was used as a primary source or not.


----------



## StreamOfTheSky (May 4, 2007)

Moon-Lancer said:
			
		

> Perhaps I have been saved. I don't play mmorpg's so I dont know these raving fan boys. Nore do I know very many gamers so I don't know any elven fan boys personally. in fact i have never EVER seen or met one online or otherwise. I have however met lots of people that think dwarves or halflings are somehow better then sliced bread though. I don't hold it against them.




QFT

Couldn't describe my attitude and experiences any better than that.  Except perhaps for the last line, however.


----------



## Moon-Lancer (May 4, 2007)

lol 

*edit*

eh, I think you could have. I'm a typo master.


----------



## StreamOfTheSky (May 4, 2007)

Kastil said:
			
		

> Wow.  I'm really amazed at how many people have come into a thread that stated "Elves Suck!" just to say "No they don't!  You're mean!".  Seriously... If you want to proclaim your love of elves, start your own thread instead of getting your panties in a bunch over what non-elf lovers have said in this one.




Well, if it weren't for the stupidity and diluted relevance of the arguments, I wouldn't mind so much.  Ripping on 3.5 elves for a book from the early 90's?  Just who is it that has their panties in a bunch?  Further, I dispute your point about people coming in here just to argue.  I saw the thread title and thought it would be a discussion of why they suck _mechanically_, something I already professed to believe in my previous post.  But, upon seeing the idiotic (and biased) poll options, I felt the need to respond.  Everyone has a right to post in a thread if their post is relevant, and trying to tell those who disagree with the OP to just go away and start a new thread is vile.  Not only that, but that new thread would just end up as an attack on this thread, creating even more hostility than if people just debated the issue in the thread as mature adults.

Finally, I don't "love" elves.  I merely enjoy the basic concept of a long-lived, intellectually superior race that is elitist.  Why?  I don't know, maybe for the same reason I find myself rooting for the well-played villains, like Xykon in order of the stick, if you're familiar.  Has anyone here ever even tried to play a foppish noble?  It's just so much fun!  And it's alos challenging, as you have to maintain your attitude of superiority without actually saying or doing something irritating enough to actually push someone "over the edge" and try to kill you.  Truly, a mental tight-rope walk if ever there was one.


----------



## airwalkrr (May 4, 2007)

elves don't suck


----------



## Doug McCrae (May 4, 2007)

mhacdebhandia said:
			
		

> No-one said that _The Lord of the Rings_ didn't influence _Dungeons & Dragons_.



You did.







			
				mhacdebhandia said:
			
		

> Gary Freaking Gygax didn't take his inspirations from Tolkien


----------



## Gez (May 4, 2007)

Moon-Lancer said:
			
		

> But to say they were "described" as being exactly like human ears is false.




I did not say that. Elves could have had ear shaped like saxophones in his vision for all I care. I was just saying that I don't remember Tolkien explicitely describing the shape of elven ears in LotR or The Hobbit, so people using "D&D elves have pointy ears" as an argument for "D&D elves are taken from LotR" is highly dubious.



			
				StreamOfTheSky said:
			
		

> Finally, I don't "love" elves.  I merely enjoy the basic concept of a long-lived, intellectually superior race that is elitist.




Intellectually superior? Elves have the same mental stats (Int, Wis, Cha) as goblins and kobolds. And you know how "intellectually superior" those are portrayed...

That's why I said elves weren't fixable. The rules could give them -6 penalty in all ability scores, say their favorite class is barbarian, and explicitely state that they can't cast spells -- and despite that, writers would still rave about ancient elven magic and powerful elven archmages in the settings and adventures.



			
				Doug McCrae said:
			
		

> You did.



Are you implying Dave Freaking Arneson is not the coauthor of OD&D?


----------



## Dark Jezter (May 4, 2007)

StreamOfTheSky said:
			
		

> Well, if it weren't for the stupidity and diluted relevance of the arguments, I wouldn't mind so much.  Ripping on 3.5 elves for a book from the early 90's?  Just who is it that has their panties in a bunch?  Further, I dispute your point about people coming in here just to argue.  I saw the thread title and thought it would be a discussion of why they suck _mechanically_, something I already professed to believe in my previous post.  But, upon seeing the idiotic (and biased) poll options, I felt the need to respond.  Everyone has a right to post in a thread if their post is relevant, and trying to tell those who disagree with the OP to just go away and start a new thread is vile.  Not only that, but that new thread would just end up as an attack on this thread, creating even more hostility than if people just debated the issue in the thread as mature adults.




Hey, it's not _my_ fault that you read "Why do elves suck?" as "Why do 3.5e elves suck mechanically?"  If I were making a thread on that subject, I'd just put it in the rules forum.

I also feel the need to point out the irony of someone advocating discussion as "mature adults" resorting to thinly-veiled personal attacks and apparantly being unable to spot obvious tongue-in-cheek humor.


----------



## Desdichado (May 4, 2007)

Gez said:
			
		

> Are you implying Dave Freaking Arneson is not the coauthor of OD&D?



Doug Freaking McCrae is doing nothing of the sort.


----------



## rgard (May 4, 2007)

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> Well, why do elves suck?




It doesn't help that Corellon Larethian wears eye shadow.


----------



## Dark Jezter (May 4, 2007)

rgard said:
			
		

> It doesn't help that Corellon Larethian wears eye shadow.



 Have you seen the illustration of Corellon Larethian in the 3e *Deities and Demigods*?

He makes Clay Aikan look like John Wayne.


----------



## questing gm (May 4, 2007)

rgard said:
			
		

> It doesn't help that Corellon Larethian wears eye shadow.




or made Grummsh lost one....


----------



## Kae'Yoss (May 4, 2007)

molonel said:
			
		

> There were treants (ents), balors (balrogs)




In fact, there were ents and balrogs. And hobbits. The names changed only after they've been told that keeping the names would not be a good idea legally.



			
				questing gm said:
			
		

> or made Grummsh lost one....




Gruums is the god of orcs. The traditional role of orcs is to be slaughtered by the dozen. That was true in Tolkien's stories, and it surely is true in D&D, or at least every game I played in and most I heard about. 



			
				StreamOfTheSky said:
			
		

> Well, if it weren't for the stupidity and diluted relevance of the arguments, I wouldn't mind so much.




Exactly. If it were a mechanical discussion on how the elves got the shaft in 3e and dwarves are far to good and all, there would be no problem. Even if it were just a fun thread, I would not mind. But it's hatemongering and flamebaiting, and should have been locked down 10 minutes after it was started. Since it wasn't locked, we feel responsible of getting rid of the prejudice and blind hatred for a fantasy race and get the facts in.



> Ripping on 3.5 elves for a book from the early 90's?




One of the most ridiculous things you can do. It's like hating a mexican guy living today because those aztecs were conducting human mass sacrifices. 



> Everyone has a right to post in a thread if their post is relevant, and trying to tell those who disagree with the OP to just go away and start a new thread is vile.




I wouldn't say vile. It's like someone with a lame argument telling everyone else to shut up because they can tear through it with ease.



> Finally, I don't "love" elves.  I merely enjoy the basic concept of a long-lived, intellectually superior race that is elitist.




Not that all elves are elitist. It's, as usual, a vocal minority. Just like a minority of really obnoxious people who like elves are used as an excuse to bash elves.



			
				rgard said:
			
		

> It doesn't help that Corellon Larethian wears eye shadow.




That picture in Deities and Demigods was an atrocity. It wasn't the only horrible art they put into D&DG and Faiths and Pantheons, and should not be held against the deity/deities in general. The original artists just need to be shot


----------



## Dark Jezter (May 4, 2007)

Kae'Yoss said:
			
		

> Exactly. If it were a mechanical discussion on how the elves got the shaft in 3e and dwarves are far to good and all, there would be no problem. Even if it were just a fun thread, I would not mind. But it's hatemongering and flamebaiting, and should have been locked down 10 minutes after it was started. Since it wasn't locked, we feel responsible of getting rid of the prejudice and blind hatred for a fantasy race and get the facts in.




"Hatemongering"?  "You feel 'responisble' to get rid of our prejudice and blind hatred"? 

Good Lord.  You're speaking as if I'd started a thread to attack a real life ethnicity.  If you honestly can't distinguish between making fun of a cliche fantasy race and real-life racism, then I think there are bigger issues that need to be addressed than this thread.

Of course, you probably won't see this unless somebody quotes me; as earlier in the thread you advertised the fact that I'm on your ignore list.


----------



## Kastil (May 4, 2007)

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> "Hatemongering"?  "You feel 'responisble' to get rid of our prejudice and blind hatred"?
> 
> Good Lord.  You're speaking as if I'd started a thread to attack a real life ethnicity.  If you honestly can't distinguish between making fun of a cliche fantasy race and real-life racism, then I think there are bigger issues that need to be addressed than this thread.
> 
> Of course, you probably won't see this unless somebody quotes me; as earlier in the thread you advertised the fact that I'm on your ignore list.





Why would anyone ignore you?

I think 'teh hate' comes from the same place deep within us that got sick of people playing Drizzt clones.  I loved LotR but when every elf fayboi comes out of the closet and skips around playing their character like a Legolas clone, it gets tiresome.  Just sayin'.


----------



## molonel (May 4, 2007)

Kae'Yoss said:
			
		

> Exactly. If it were a mechanical discussion on how the elves got the shaft in 3e and dwarves are far to good and all, there would be no problem. Even if it were just a fun thread, I would not mind. But it's hatemongering and flamebaiting, and should have been locked down 10 minutes after it was started. Since it wasn't locked, we feel responsible of getting rid of the prejudice and blind hatred for a fantasy race and get the facts in.




I really hope that was written with a HUGE snarky grin and a ginormous dose of self-aware irony.

Otherwise, it scares me just a little bit.



			
				Kae'Yoss said:
			
		

> One of the most ridiculous things you can do. It's like hating a mexican guy living today because those aztecs were conducting human mass sacrifices.




Well, except with the difference that Mexicans are real and subject to actual racism, and elves, well, aren't. And aren't. Ya know?


----------



## BronzeDragon (May 4, 2007)

I would refer you to Forrester's Lecture named "The Aelvish problem", but that's been lost to time.

I do have it saved up somewhere though.


----------



## Dark Jezter (May 4, 2007)

BronzeDragon said:
			
		

> I would refer you to Forrester's Lecture named "The Aelvish problem", but that's been lost to time.
> 
> I do have it saved up somewhere though.



 If you happen upon it, please email it to me or post it in this thread.

Seriously.


----------



## Gez (May 4, 2007)

Kae'Yoss said:
			
		

> One of the most ridiculous things you can do. It's like hating a mexican guy living today because those aztecs were conducting human mass sacrifices.



This analogy would be very apt if there were many long-lived people (elves, maybe?) who were there at the time and would still be there now, refusing to accept that time has changed and still behaving like mass human sacrifices are something to do every week end.

'Cause, you know, people who played with the CBOE are still out there -- some of them are even writing sourcebooks.



			
				Kae'Yoss said:
			
		

> Not that all elves are elitist. It's, as usual, a vocal minority.



Oh? Can I see the poll you conducted among the elves? I'd be curious to see the percent!   



			
				Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> If you happen upon it, please email it to me or post it in this thread.
> 
> Seriously.



Motion seconded.


----------



## Kae'Yoss (May 4, 2007)

molonel said:
			
		

> Well, except with the difference that Mexicans are real and subject to actual racism, and elves, well, aren't. And aren't. Ya know?




So you say it's perfectly alright behaving irrationally about elves and their fans just because elves are just fiction? Those who are offended by being called unflattering things just because they don't rant about elves with foaming mouths aren't fiction, you know.


----------



## Flexor the Mighty! (May 4, 2007)

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> "Hatemongering"?  "You feel 'responisble' to get rid of our prejudice and blind hatred"?
> 
> Good Lord.  You're speaking as if I'd started a thread to attack a real life ethnicity.  If you honestly can't distinguish between making fun of a cliche fantasy race and real-life racism, then I think there are bigger issues that need to be addressed than this thread.
> 
> Of course, you probably won't see this unless somebody quotes me; as earlier in the thread you advertised the fact that I'm on your ignore list.




 

Death to Elves!


----------



## molonel (May 4, 2007)

Kae'Yoss said:
			
		

> So you say it's perfectly alright behaving irrationally about elves and their fans just because elves are just fiction? Those who are offended by being called unflattering things just because they don't rant about elves with foaming mouths aren't fiction, you know.




Well, of course.

I mean, elves suck. So it's perfectly legitimate to make fun of those mincing, effeminate fey.


----------



## Infernal Teddy (May 4, 2007)

BronzeDragon said:
			
		

> I would refer you to Forrester's Lecture named "The Aelvish problem", but that's been lost to time.
> 
> I do have it saved up somewhere though.




Well, when you find it, I'd like a copy


----------



## Brennin Magalus (May 5, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> Yes, yes, I do. And I _still_ do this better than you.




I side with hong, probably because he is also in statistics.


----------



## Brennin Magalus (May 5, 2007)

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> "Hatemongering"?  "You feel 'responisble' to get rid of our prejudice and blind hatred"?
> 
> Good Lord.  You're speaking as if I'd started a thread to attack a real life ethnicity.  If you honestly can't distinguish between making fun of a cliche fantasy race and real-life racism, then I think there are bigger issues that need to be addressed than this thread.




Clearly, someone needs to lobby the Democrats to add elves to their hate crimes bill.


----------



## Sejs (May 5, 2007)

StreamOfTheSky said:
			
		

> Finally, I don't "love" elves.  I merely enjoy the basic concept of a long-lived, intellectually superior race that is elitist race of smug, arrogant, overbearing assbaskets.




Fixed that for ya.


----------



## DungeonMaester (May 5, 2007)

In AD&D Elves are 90% immune to ZOMG HATE.

---Rusty


----------



## mhacdebhandia (May 5, 2007)

Doug McCrae said:
			
		

> You did.



You seem to forget that Gary Gygax didn't invent _Dungeons & Dragons_ by himself, or that he wasn't the only person who created material for the game even in its early days. In other words, that Gygax wasn't much inspired by Tolkien doesn't mean that Tolkien didn't influence the game - it just happened in other writers' works.

My point was simply that Moon-Lancer's assertion that Tolkien is responsible for the background and foreground of the game is clearly laughable, since one of the two creators didn't care much for _The Lord of the Rings_.


----------



## Gothmog (May 5, 2007)

What is so funny to me is that nobody would bat an eye if we were making fun of orcs for being loud, stupid, barbaric, but they still have the "orcs are better than eveyone else" attitude.  The reason people don't make much fun of orcs is that they aren't very entertaining to make fun of, and there aren't (many) raving fanboys for orcs.  And if they are, they don't pretend to be sexy, cooler than thou, mysterious and angst ridden orcs.  Scary thought though- orc goths!   

Anyway, elves have always struck me as the worthless yuppie types- the ones concerned with making and maintaining a certain appearance, but who have no substance or talents to back up their arrogance.  Or movies stars- pretty to look at, but with few other redeeming qualities and hedonistic personal lives that would make them ideal subjects on Jerry Springer.  And people like that deserve ridicule if they can't back up what they claim, and walk around with major superiority complexes.  At the same time, elves don't usually do anything practical- they are aloof, hide in their forests, and claim its someone else's problem while they deride other for being short-sighted and barbaric.  They are like the worst traits combined from a yuppie, a ceberity, and a hippie.  So yes, some people invite ridicule, but out of politeness to REAL people, most of us don't make fun of them.  But a fantasy race whose feeling you can't hurt and who aren't real- its open season.


----------



## Dark Jezter (May 5, 2007)

Gothmog said:
			
		

> What is so funny to me is that nobody would bat an eye if we were making fun of orcs for being loud, stupid, barbaric, but they still have the "orcs are better than eveyone else" attitude.  The reason people don't make much fun of orcs is that they aren't very entertaining to make fun of, and there aren't (many) raving fanboys for orcs.  And if they are, they don't pretend to be sexy, cooler than thou, mysterious and angst ridden orcs.  Scary thought though- orc goths!
> 
> Anyway, elves have always struck me as the worthless yuppie types- the ones concerned with making and maintaining a certain appearance, but who have no substance or talents to back up their arrogance.  Or movies stars- pretty to look at, but with few other redeeming qualities and hedonistic personal lives that would make them ideal subjects on Jerry Springer.  And people like that deserve ridicule if they can't back up what they claim, and walk around with major superiority complexes.  At the same time, elves don't usually do anything practical- they are aloof, hide in their forests, and claim its someone else's problem while they deride other for being short-sighted and barbaric.  They are like the worst traits combined from a yuppie, a ceberity, and a hippie.  So yes, some people invite ridicule, but out of politeness to REAL people, most of us don't make fun of them.  But a fantasy race whose feeling you can't hurt and who aren't real- its open season.



 Very well put, Gothmog.


----------



## molonel (May 5, 2007)

mhacdebhandia said:
			
		

> You seem to forget that Gary Gygax didn't invent _Dungeons & Dragons_ by himself, or that he wasn't the only person who created material for the game even in its early days. In other words, that Gygax wasn't much inspired by Tolkien doesn't mean that Tolkien didn't influence the game - it just happened in other writers' works. My point was simply that Moon-Lancer's assertion that Tolkien is responsible for the background and foreground of the game is clearly laughable, since one of the two creators didn't care much for _The Lord of the Rings_.




http://www.theonering.net/features/interviews/gary_gygax.html

How did it influence the D&D game? Whoa, plenty, of course. Just about all the players were huge JRRT fans, and so they insisted that I put as much Tolkien-influence material into the game as possible. Anyone reading this that recalls the original D&D game will know that there were Balrogs, Ents, and Hobbits in it. Later those were removed, and new, non-JRRT things substituted–Balor demons, Treants, and Halflings. Indeed, who can doubt the excellence of Tolkien’s writing? So of course it had a strong impact on A/D&D games. A look at my recommended fantasy books reading list in the back of the original DUNGEON MASTERS GUILD will show a long list of other influential fantasy authors, though.


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## Gothmog (May 5, 2007)

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> Very well put, Gothmog.




Thanks- thats been my public service announcement for the week.


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## mhacdebhandia (May 5, 2007)

molonel said:
			
		

> http://www.theonering.net/features/interviews/gary_gygax.html
> 
> How did it influence the D&D game? Whoa, plenty, of course. Just about all the players were huge JRRT fans, and so they insisted that I put as much Tolkien-influence material into the game as possible. Anyone reading this that recalls the original D&D game will know that there were Balrogs, Ents, and Hobbits in it. Later those were removed, and new, non-JRRT things substituted–Balor demons, Treants, and Halflings. Indeed, who can doubt the excellence of Tolkien’s writing? So of course it had a strong impact on A/D&D games. A look at my recommended fantasy books reading list in the back of the original DUNGEON MASTERS GUILD will show a long list of other influential fantasy authors, though.



Guild? Heh.

Gee, but that quote seems to me that it was the players' idea to have Tolkienesque elements in the game - doesn't it seem that way to you?


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## mhacdebhandia (May 5, 2007)

Anyway, the issue of Gygax and Tolkien is a sidetrack, because it actually doesn't matter: If I dislike Tolkien's influence on D&D and want to strip it out as much as possible, I have the right to do so, because I'm not alienating anyone by doing so (given that I choose players who either agree with me or don't care at all).

If you love Tolkien and want more of it in the game, the same applies to you.

I like that Wizards of the Coast is broadening beyond the - to me - less valuable "traditional" set of fantasy concepts and producing settings like Eberron which do things differently with the same game material. That way, everyone wins.


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## molonel (May 5, 2007)

mhacdebhandia said:
			
		

> Guild? Heh.
> 
> Gee, but that quote seems to me that it was the players' idea to have Tolkienesque elements in the game - doesn't it seem that way to you?




The point being, however, that Gygax did write it - which is exactly the opposite of what you claimed - and they are in the game, and he says that derived from Tolkien's work. Of course there were other influences. He said so. But Tolkien's influence was heavy, and tangible.

If it pleases you to think of him grimacing while he sat at his typewriter, pounding out the words with a group of gamers standing behind him holding axes, knives and various implements of torture, hey, whatever blows your hair back.


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## Moon-Lancer (May 5, 2007)

clearly lotr wasen't on the list so it wasen't influenced by it. LOL


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## Gez (May 5, 2007)

molonel said:
			
		

> http://www.theonering.net/features/interviews/gary_gygax.html




Of course, given the interviewers, Gygax wasn't going to say "I hate Tolkien and tried to limit lotrish influence as much as possible."   

Point is, D&D elves are not LotR elves. You could make a case they're closer to Hobbit elves, maybe... But that's it.


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## Illirion (May 5, 2007)

I think elves suck because (in dutch) the word 'elf' also means 'eleven', like the number 11. In addition: 'half-elf' means 'half past 10' in dutch and has often been the cause of even more confusion around the gaming table  .

Other than that I always liked dwarves better than elves. Dwarves are just a lot more down to earth than elves  .


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## molonel (May 5, 2007)

Gez said:
			
		

> Point is, D&D elves are not LotR elves. You could make a case they're closer to Hobbit elves, maybe... But that's it.




Which is to say that they are closer to the Sylvan or possibly the Sindar than they are to the Noldor.


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## WarlockLord (May 5, 2007)

I hate all the guys, who, because girls would rather commit seppeku than look at them, who play Hawt Female Elves.  I don't mind drow as much, because they aren't all perfect, and they have moral quandaries.  I am currently designing a drow anima mage, and he's exploits the worthless, virtually nonexistant vestiges to save his friends (somewhat like Elric performing human sacrifices).  He is highly intelligent, but sarcastic and not great at putting up with other's foibles (has a high Cha, this is RP).

However, I have found a use for elves: When you need undead minions, rampage through Happy Elf Land! The best use those for those overcliched obnoxious creatures!  KILL! KILL! KILL! KILL! KILL! 

Only use for them.


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## Dark Jezter (May 5, 2007)

WarlockLord said:
			
		

> I hate all the guys, who, because girls would rather commit seppeku than look at them, who play Hawt Female Elves.  I don't mind drow as much, because they aren't all perfect, and they have moral quandaries.




How do you feel about players/DMs who use leather-wearing, whip-wielding hot dominatrix-like female drow?


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## Nail (May 5, 2007)

Elves don't suck.

.....You sure you didn't leave "Half-" outta th' title?


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## Gez (May 5, 2007)

molonel said:
			
		

> Which is to say that they are closer to the Sylvan or possibly the Sindar than they are to the Noldor.



Legolas is not a Noldor.


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## Doug McCrae (May 5, 2007)

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> How do you feel about players/DMs who use leather-wearing, whip-wielding hot dominatrix-like female drow?



Sometimes LARP is a better medium than tabletop.


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## Set (May 5, 2007)

Doug McCrae said:
			
		

> Sometimes LARP is a better medium than tabletop.




Depends on the age and fitness of the LARPers.  Sometimes the imagination of 'hot drow chick in leather' is much more enjoyable than the reality of 'heavy-set pale person who may or may not be female in tight leather pretending to be a drow dominatrix'...


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## (Psi)SeveredHead (May 5, 2007)

Gez said:
			
		

> Legolas is not a Noldor.




Aye. The number of Noldor seen in LotR is very small. To see lots of Noldor, you'll need to read the Silmarillion.

Legolas doesn't bother me; he might even have the "perfect" thing going for him, but he never *says* it. He might not be humble, but he's definitely not arrogant.


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## Piratecat (May 5, 2007)

A joke is only funny if it isn't beaten to death - and so, gentle readers, say goodbye to the Elf hatin' until another day. We're about done here. 

Klunk.


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