# Pit Fiend vs Balor....BLOODWAR....who would win ?



## Hackenslash (Aug 17, 2003)

Hi all,

I came across some interesting reading on the internet about the "Eternal Blood War" and of course it's mentioned in the MM and DMG but I was wondering what all of you thought of the new DR ratings and how it would effect the Bloodwar. I mean do they just end up hacking at each other for hours due to DR Ratings being what they are eg. 5/Good or 10/Good etc.....or do they overcome the DR's due to their eternal struggle or is that indeed why it's called an eternal struggle.

Also, Who do you think would win in one to one combat between a Pit Fiend and a Balor, as they are both very powerfull and what tactics would they use against each other. I have a very cool idea for my new campaign that will culminate in the PC's witnessing and getting involved, as these awesome creatures go head to head. The plot is in it's infancy at the moment but suffice to say that it will be quiet complex and will involve the PC's getting the Pit Fiend to Battle the Balor for them, while they take on the Balors minions, either thru artifact strength charm magic or alignment change, not sure yet. 

Thanks for any info. and/or comments. Cheers !!!


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## hong (Aug 17, 2003)

The star destroyer would win, with the Enterprise coming a distant second. Elminster would be left in the dust.


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## Zerth (Aug 17, 2003)

Yeah, and the troll always dies first


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## Endur (Aug 17, 2003)

DR = Eternal Struggle.

Actually, these creatures are very powerful, so some of their blows will penetrate DR.  

Both are DR 15

Both have lots of spells and immunities.  We'll cover combat first.

Pit Fiend: Initiative +12, Hit Points 225, AC 40, Grapple +35
Balor: Initiative +11, Hit Points 290, AC 35, Grapple +36

To Hit: Pit Fiend 
2 claws +30 melee  (damage 2d8 +13, avg 22)
2 wings +28 melee (damage 2d6 +6, avg 13)
bite +28 melee (damage 4d6 +6 + disease + poison, avg 20)
tail slap +28 melee (2d8 +6, avg 15)

Pit Fiend attacks, only the bite and the claws are likely to penetrate DR.

To Hit: Balor
+1 Vorpal Longsword: +31/+26/+21/+16: (2d6 +8/19-20, avg 15)
+1 Flaming Whip: +30/+25 (1d4 +4 plus d6 fire plus entangle, avg 7)

Vorpal Sword wins the fight on a 20, most other attacks won't penetrate DR.


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## Philip (Aug 17, 2003)

Easy: the Balor cannot overcome the Pit Fiend's regeneration ability. The Pit Fiend wins.

Additionally, the Horned Devil summoned by the Pit Fiend will eventually inflict a tail wound to the Balor, which kills it due to its Infernal Wound ability while the devils teleport away....


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## James McMurray (Aug 17, 2003)

> Additionally, the Horned Devil summoned by the Pit Fiend will eventually inflict a tail wound to the Balor, which kills it due to its Infernal Wound ability while the devils teleport away....




Unless the Balor decides to take 20 on his heal check to stop the damage, or kills the Horned Devil right off the bat.


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## Philip (Aug 17, 2003)

James McMurray said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Unless the Balor decides to take 20 on his heal check to stop the damage, or kills the Horned Devil right off the bat.  *




That's a good one! It would cost him 40 hp, but with his Wis modifier, it wouldn't be a problem. It would be a funny sight, though, the Balor trying to patch himself up


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## John Q. Mayhem (Aug 18, 2003)

I just want to say that I've always been pissed off about the CR difference between 3.0 balor and pit fiends. I don't have the 3.5 MM yet, but just in general terms I think that the pit fiend would win, because IMHO, they actually command the awe and respect of their minions instead of ruling through fear. Also, I've just always thought of them as a whole heck of a lot smarter than balor. Better tacticians, anyway.


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## Darkness (Aug 18, 2003)

John Q. Mayhem said:
			
		

> *I just want to say that I've always been pissed off about the CR difference between 3.0 balor and pit fiends. I don't have the 3.5 MM yet ... *



Then look it up in the SRD: 

http://www.wizards.com/D20/article.asp?x=srd35


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## AuraSeer (Aug 18, 2003)

John Q. Mayhem said:
			
		

> *[...]I think that the pit fiend would win, because IMHO, they actually command the awe and respect of their minions instead of ruling through fear.*



I may have awe and respect for the CEO of my software company, but that doesn't mean he can take down a Balor all by himself.


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## Darklone (Aug 18, 2003)

AuraSeer said:
			
		

> *
> I may have awe and respect for the CEO of my software company, but that doesn't mean he can take down a Balor all by himself. *



Right. AEGs Evil book has some thoughts about chaotic evil and lawful evil societies... short summary: CE rulers have to be tough and overpowering, LE rulers have a strict order between equally or comparable strong dudes ruling different parts.

Therefore the CE rulers would be lots tougher, but there would be more LE rulers.


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## Bauglir (Aug 18, 2003)

I don't think the Pit Fiend stands any good chance to win outright.  Even if it survives the endless vorpal attacks for long enough to drop the balor, it's unlikely to have enough hp left to survive the death throes


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Aug 18, 2003)

Remember the Pit Fiend might try to disarm the Balor (if neccessary, by entering a grapple with him) or sunder its vorpal sword (Though the last might be impossible because of his lack of +5 weapons?)

Mustrum Ridcully


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## Tabarnak Smokeblower (Aug 18, 2003)

I'd say the pit fiend should win. Why? simply because there are a LOT less Pit Fiends than Balors, and if a Balor could take out a Pit Fiend, then the Blood War wouldn't be eternal for too long 

TS


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## Hjorimir (Aug 18, 2003)

Pit Fiend creates a magical adamantine glaive via *wish* and proceeds to sunder the *+1 vorpal longsword* with a single attack. Gets into a grapple and just continues to put the *SQUEEEEZE* on the Balor.


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## daTim (Aug 18, 2003)

Interesting question, but I dont see either one fighting very often. Pit Fiend/Balors are generally the Aristocrats of the Demon types. A Balor would probly just get its Marilith to handle his military affairs for him.


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## Hackenslash (Aug 18, 2003)

*Wow...quite a difference in opinions....*

Thanks for all the replys. It seems that there is a difference in opinion on who would win the fight between a Balor and a Pit Fiend. At first I thought that it would be the Pit Fiend but I have done a little further research and after play testing one such battle the Balor Won, with it's Vorpal Sword really counting. However, due to the superior tactics of the Pit Fiend I am not sure that it would let itself get in a straight slug fest with a Balor so I might have to re-think my plans as to how to get them to fight each other on more even grounds with equal odds. Summond allies will not be an option for either of them and the few they will have as part of their entourage will be occupied and eventually handled by the PC's. With this climatic battle occuring in the Background. But I have to say that the Balors Vorpal Sword as a standar item is a force to be reckoned with. Thanks for all the feedback, Any other thoughts on how the Pit Fiend could even the odds using the standard rules and equipment it comes with in the 3.5 MM. Cheers All


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## Darkness (Aug 18, 2003)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> *... sunder its vorpal sword (Though the last might be impossible because of his lack of +5 weapons?)*



Hm. He doesn't need a +5 weapon - he needs a +1 weapon (enhancement bonus is what counts - DMG, p. 222).

But unless he _has_ a +1 weapon, he's screwed as far as Sundering is concerned. (_Wish_ notwithstanding, of course.)

- _Maybe such a weapon is part of his treasure or else the PCs have one for him to use_ Darkness


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## Hackenslash (Aug 18, 2003)

*Interesting thought.....*

Thanks Darkness, maybe that's how the PC's will help the Pit Fiend against the Balor, stepping in after they defeat the entourage and with the Pit Fiend Half dead from it's wounds, the PC's hand over a magic weapon to even the odds, now as it would only have to be a minimum of +1 to Sunder the Balors Vorpal sword, that should be within the reach of the PC's treasure limit...hehehehe ....Cheers !!!


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## Hjorimir (Aug 18, 2003)

Even without restoring to a _wish_, it seems that getting its hands on a magical weapon to sunder the +1 vorpal longsword would be pretty much automatic for a Pit Fiend.

Given the nature of devils to have long drawn out plans, I would suggest that the Pit Fiend is probably aware of a possible encounter with the Balor and would plan accordingly.

If I was the Pit Fiend I would offer advancement to the Balor's Marilith with some cunning deal (we are talking about devils after all) that would work to my advantage.

I could see this playing out in a campaign where it looks like the Balor has every advantage in the upcoming battle to be outdone, in the end, by the double-crossing devils.

I've always kind of had the idea that the reason the nine hells can battle the obviously much larger abyss and hold them to a stalemate is due to superior planning and tactics. I could even theorize that the strife between Graz'zt, Orcus, and Demogorgan are the result of hellish machinations (ala Asmodeus).


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## Hackenslash (Aug 18, 2003)

*I like this idea too....*



			
				Hjorimir said:
			
		

> *......I could see this playing out in a campaign where it looks like the Balor has every advantage in the upcoming battle to be outdone, in the end, by the double-crossing devils.
> 
> I've always kind of had the idea that the reason the nine hells can battle the obviously much larger abyss and hold them to a stalemate is due to superior planning and tactics. I could even theorize that the strife between Graz'zt, Orcus, and Demogorgan are the result of hellish machinations (ala Asmodeus). *




Good Point, Hjorimir. I like this double crossing idea and it would seem all the more prevelent in a climatic battle to have the mighty Balor defeated only through the traitorous actions of his own allies, with the not quite so injured Pit Fiend smirking to himself in the background. The Blood War has always interested me but I was confused over the new DR issues and how it would pan out in direct confrontation. It would be really cool if someone wrote some more details about it, or even better wrote a whole book on it or a novell with anti-heros in the form of Devils against the overwhelming odds of the Abysal Hordes. I'm sure it would be epic stuff and would make an even better movie...Any further thoughts...Cheers All !!!!


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## Hackenslash (Aug 19, 2003)

*BUMP!!!*

Hi All,

Any other thoughts on the rules regarding this encounter or maybe rules that I may have overlooked for the Blood War.


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## Epametheus (Aug 21, 2003)

How I'd expect match-up between a generic balor and generic pit-fiend to go is pretty simple -- either they'd spam Mass Hold Monster/Dominate Monster at each other until one finally botched the save, or one of them would realize that the battle was too even for either of them to win and teleport away.  A balor _might_ not care about having 50/50 odds, but the pit-fiend most certainly would care.

It looks like pit-fiends are actually superior in melee now (the unarmed attack for the balor seems to have been nerfed a little).

However, if you're basing a quest around these guys, they shouldn't be measly generics.  Realistically (as much as such a term could apply to DnD), Pit Fiends and Balors are unholy generals of the highest order, and can pretty much acquire whatever the hell they want.  I can easily picture a balor lugging around a huge +5 holy anarchic lawful-outsider bane silvered great-axe for the sole purpose of smiting the hated baatezu.  Yeah, it'll suffer a negative level whenever it picks up Ghrn'sha the Devil Splitter, but when you live in Hell, suffering some slight discomfort is a small price to pay for victory.

And if the Pit Fiend needs the PCs to help it against the Balor, then the Balor probably needs the PCs to help it against the Pit Fiend.  Have both sides competing for the loyalty (and quite possibly, souls) of the PCs.


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## The Little Raven (Aug 22, 2003)

EDIT: No point.


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## DMBronsonBaker (Mar 14, 2011)

Just as a house rule to simplify things like this,my group runs it like,if you have DR equal too,or greater than,your opponents DR,you get through it. Cause chances are if you have skin that thick,the muscle underneath it can certainly hit hard enough to get through.


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## Thunderfoot (Mar 14, 2011)

All this new fangled Planescape bloodwar stuff.  What a bunch a hoowy.

Back in my day they were called Type 6 demons - and they didn't regenerate.  And Pit Fiends, they aren't gonna be off fight over some piece of useless plane that neither side can use.  No siree, Asmodeous and Orcus have better things for their lieutenants to do - like torture lowly souls and whip lesser demon/devils into line.  Bloodwar, heh.

(This semi humorous rant is brought to you by the 1eAD&D Monster Manual pages 16, 17, 19, 20  & 23.  And by the letter Q.)


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## Plane Sailing (Mar 16, 2011)

DMBronsonBaker said:


> Just as a house rule to simplify things like this,my group runs it like,if you have DR equal too,or greater than,your opponents DR,you get through it. Cause chances are if you have skin that thick,the muscle underneath it can certainly hit hard enough to get through.




Holy thread necromancy, batman!

Nice to have you aboard, DMBronsonBaker - I'd be interested in hearing what it was about a 7 year old thread that prompted you to join in the conversation  

Seriously, was it a result of a google search, or something similar?

Cheers


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