# The Walking Dead



## Dannyalcatraz (Nov 1, 2010)

I'm watching the pilot for this series as I type this.

While I note a tiny plot hole in the main character's initial survival, I have to say this zombie horror tv show seems to be well acted and written.

Let me back up and repeat this, to ensure that you didn't miss it: its a zombie horror tv show.

It is at least better than most (not all) of the zombie movies I've seen in the past few years.  It's been done with an amount of care not unlike the British show _Survivors_.  Because its late-night and AMC is a cable station, we get to hear honest to goodness adult language.

Anyone else catch it?


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## Dog Moon (Nov 1, 2010)

Oh crap, that started already!  Oy, I need to try to find it again sometime this week.  I was interested in checking this out, but didn't know when it started.  Or more likely I forgot when it started.

Thanks for the reminder!


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## Hand of Evil (Nov 1, 2010)

yep, I enjoyed it, though I did think the start was too much 28 days.  Yep, a lot better than most zombie movies I have seen.  

Been counting the rules:
1) guy telling the cop to watch their numbers.  
2) warning to keep out of the city...oops!


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## Dannyalcatraz (Nov 1, 2010)

The lone glitch was how the sheriff survived his coma.  I'm not talking about how, despite the presence of zombies within the hospital, he was lucky enough not to be eaten.

The dried out flowers implied nobody had been around him in a while, and his intravenous drip was empty or nearly so.  Later visual and dialog cues indicate the zombie problem had been serious for a month or more.

So why wasn't he extremely dehydrated (like his flowers) or starving from lack of nutrition, and thus extremely weak.  As in, virtually unable to move?

Beyond that?  Aces!


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## Hand of Evil (Nov 1, 2010)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> The lone glitch was how the sheriff survived his coma.  I'm not talking about how, despite the presence of zombies within the hospital, he was lucky enough not to be eaten.
> 
> The dried out flowers implied nobody had been around him in a while, and his intravenous drip was empty or nearly so.  Later visual and dialog cues indicate the zombie problem had been serious for a month or more.
> 
> ...




In a way I think they showed this, him falling from the bed and then sucking down water from the bathroom.  They just did not spend a lot of time on it.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Nov 1, 2010)

Hand of Evil said:


> In a way I think they showed this, him falling from the bed and then sucking down water from the bathroom.  They just did not spend a lot of time on it.




They did, they did, but he was still _waaaaay_ to ambulatory. He should have been crawling or zombie-shuffling himself.  Those flowers weren't just dead, they were _crumbling_.

And there's conflicting evidence elsewhere: IV bags don't last all day...but we also know that his bandages hadn't been well attended.  Did someone risk their life to help him until they couldn't anymore, or was the filmmaking crew just a little sloppy?

Then again, I grew up in a medical household, so stuff like that bugs me more than others.


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## Fast Learner (Nov 1, 2010)

My willing suspension of disbelief says that the hospital was manned by some caring souls for several weeks of zombie world, up until just a few days before he awoke. They didn't do much that wasn't absolutely necessary to keep the patient alive, putting up new saline and such. Flowers had been ignored for weeks. Something along those lines.

He still would have been much, much weaker. Likely couldn't have walked at all without a fair bit of physical therapy. But the dehydration thing can be written off.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Nov 1, 2010)

In fairness, it could be a plot point they're setting up- the ID of the person who tried to save him in the hospital.


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## Insight (Nov 1, 2010)

'Walking Dead' a Monster Smash



> AMC's The Walking Dead premiere ratings are enormous: The 90-minute Halloween night debut delivered 5.3 million viewers and a 3.3 adults 18-49 rating.
> 
> That's the largest demo audience for any series premiere on any cable network this year.
> 
> It's also the highest numbers for any series in AMC's history, and beat most non-sports programs on broadcast Sunday night.


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## renau1g (Nov 1, 2010)

Hand of Evil said:


> yep, I enjoyed it, though I did think the start was too much 28 days.  Yep, a lot better than most zombie movies I have seen.




Have you read the comics by chance? 

I was blown away at the production values, way higher than almost any zombie movie I've seen since the Dawn of the Dead remake (2002?) which consequently was right before the pilot. Great job, although the zombies were kind of a cross between Romero and 28 Days Later ones as in 



Spoiler



Atlanta when they were chasing him on the horse they were pretty damn quick, IIRC they're walkers and relatively slow-moving in the books



I have high, high hopes for the series based on the source material and am glad to see AMC rewarded for the project. 

[MENTION=19675]Dannyalcatraz[/MENTION] - unless it breaks from the comic I don't believe they'll have anything with his savior. If you're curious 



Spoiler



I believe in the comic they mentioned that the hospital was supposed to be looked after and he was to be taken care of there under guard. Perhaps that's what the army copters outside it in the show represent? Being a smaller town they were slower to have the zombies show up as well so he was likely tended to longer.



I do agree about the IV bag, but c'est la vie. If that's the one thing that's being identified in the show, I'll take it


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## Dannyalcatraz (Nov 1, 2010)

I haven't read the comics, but if they're good enough to spawn a good _long-lasting_ TV show for the cost of minor gaffes, I'm good with that.


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## Shade (Nov 1, 2010)

Absolutely fantastic!   The mood, the dramatic use of silence, the overwhelming _humanity_ of this show...all make this my new must-watch show.

Once again, Lennie James has blown me away with his acting prowess.  I'm sad he's not a series regular.  

Did anyone else think the zombie that stepped off the bus looked like Grima Wormtongue (Brad Dourif)?


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## Blastin (Nov 1, 2010)

As to the "they stole the waking in the hospital from 28 days later." : As mentioned above the show is based on the comic and that begining was right from the comic. The comic was written and released before 28 days later was in theaters...

  As a big fan of the comics: I loved the show. They took all the good stuff from the comics and then sprinkled them with extra slimy zombie goodness.

  The comics are about the survivors and how they deal with and change to survive. The zombies are just the window dressing for this, not the center of attention.


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## Klaus (Nov 1, 2010)

How gory was it? Yes, I've seen the zombies in pictures and stuff, but how about when they attack?

(it only premieres here tomorrow)


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## Crothian (Nov 2, 2010)

There is gore but I didn't find it too bad.  There is potential for worse though.


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## darjr (Nov 2, 2010)

My wife said the same thing about the dehydration. And we talked about someone having taken care of him. It wouldn't be the last time he 'missed' other survivors.

The thing that's bugging me is the room with the dead in it. He didn't understand about the dead yet, so I would have thought he would have tried to see if he could 'help' the people trapped in the room.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Nov 2, 2010)

Gore was no worse than a zombie movie on TV.


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## jcayer (Nov 2, 2010)

I'm not normally a zombie guy, but I tuned into this and have to say it was amazing.  It was the most intense show I have ever seen on TV.  My wife, who I didn't think would show any interest, kept putting her laptop down and watching it.  I was informed afterward that I have to watch it when she is not around as it was too intense for her liking.

The gore was pretty intense when they showed it.


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## Fast Learner (Nov 2, 2010)

Shade said:


> Once again, Lennie James has blown me away with his acting prowess.  I'm sad he's not a series regular.



Yeah, I was really disappointed to see that on IMDB. 

On the other hand, if they regularly have little vignettes like that -- stories of people who have survived that we don't have to see again but can really enjoy -- then I'll be an even bigger fan.



> Did anyone else think the zombie that stepped off the bus looked like Grima Wormtongue (Brad Dourif)?



Yeah, very similar. And they focused on him at least 3 different times.


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## IronWolf (Nov 2, 2010)

Watched it tonight on Amazon VOD.  Excellent show!  Very impressed.


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## Klaus (Nov 2, 2010)

Fast Learner said:


> Yeah, I was really disappointed to see that on IMDB.
> 
> On the other hand, if they regularly have little vignettes like that -- stories of people who have survived that we don't have to see again but can really enjoy -- then I'll be an even bigger fan.
> 
> ...



Note: "series regular" means he'd appear in all 6 episodes of season 1. Season 2 has been greenlit.

SPOILER for the comic book



Spoiler



His character does appear again, albeit muuuuch later, and much more haunted.


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## Janx (Nov 2, 2010)

having never read the comic book...

Why should we assume the flowers were brought soon after his injury?  it might have been some time after?

That would justify him being more healed, when he wakes up.

If nothing else, his relative recovery is typical for hollywood injuries in the face of plot, namely, the actor recovers at the speed of plot.  And its not like he was leaving with a spring in his step.  Effectively, he got nursed to some better health when he was found.

What I find odd, which is common in almost all zombie movies, is that they take place in a world with no zombie movies.  To me, once you realize "OMG, there's zombies", you arm up, stay quiet, and move carefully.  Stay out of highly populated areas.


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## Hand of Evil (Nov 2, 2010)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> In fairness, it could be a plot point they're setting up- the ID of the person who tried to save him in the hospital.




Or that he is just not "as dead a zombie."


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## Krug (Nov 2, 2010)

Great start to the series. I really enjoy the comic book and they've done a great job adapting it. Yeah some things don't make sense, but it's head and heels above most zombei horror films.


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## renau1g (Nov 2, 2010)

Janx said:


> What I find odd, which is common in almost all zombie movies, is that they take place in a world with no zombie movies.  To me, once you realize "OMG, there's zombies", you arm up, stay quiet, and move carefully.  Stay out of highly populated areas.




I would imagine that most people would be in a state of denial or shock during the inevitable Zombocolypse. Also, many people aren't nerds (I say that affectionately) that love zombies movies/books/Zombie Survival Guides. 

Plus, fatigue, paranoia, a host of other mental health issues would likely hamper your judgment. I couldn't imagine the horror of seeing a loved one eaten alive and what affect that would have on a person.

Wow...totally off-topic.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Nov 2, 2010)

> Also, many people aren't nerds (I say that affectionately) that love zombies movies/books/Zombie Survival Guides.




While true, I'd say a simple majority of people (in the West, at least) are familiar with them.  Even my Mom, for instance, who watches no horror- she leaves the room if I'm watching SyFy or Chiller- has _some _knowledge of zombies.


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## Crothian (Nov 2, 2010)

The main issue with zombie movies is they don't all agree.  But we are seeing them shot in the head and didn't have to go through characters who died because they didn't know to do that.  I'm not sure what widom one can gleem from Zombie movies except that everyone is doomed and you might as well end it on your own terms.


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## Sutekh (Nov 3, 2010)

Why no ZOMBIE HORSE?


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## Krug (Nov 3, 2010)

Crothian said:


> The main issue with zombie movies is they don't all agree.  But we are seeing them shot in the head and didn't have to go through characters who died because they didn't know to do that.  I'm not sure what widom one can gleem from Zombie movies except that everyone is doomed and you might as well end it on your own terms.




For the graphic novel, it focuses on the human communities that the group encounters and what humans will do to survive. The zombies almost fade into the background.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Nov 3, 2010)

Sutekh said:


> Why no ZOMBIE HORSE?




Because that is the most boring variant of basketball ever invented:

"baalllll"
_*thwipp tang tang tang*_
"Hhhhhhhhhhhhh"
_*bdunkbang tang tang tang*_
"grrrrrrrrrrr"
_*bdunkbang tang tang tang*_
"Hhhhhhhhhhhhh"

(28 days later)

_*thwipp tang tang tang*_
"Hhhhhhhhhhhhh"
_*bdunkbang tang tang tang*_
"Hhhhhhhhhhhhh"
_*thwipp tang tang tang*_
"HhhhhhOoooooo"
_*bdunkbang tang tang tang*_
"grrrrrrrrrrr...Hhhhhhhhhh"
_*thwipp tang tang tang*_
"HhhhhhOooooooRRrrrrr...eat Trebek.."
_*tang tang tang tang tang*_
"...eat Trebek...EAT TREBEK!"



What?


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## Blastin (Nov 8, 2010)

"You must spread xp around before giving to Danny Alcatraz again..."

Second episode keeps up the great work thus far. Already some pretty major changes from the comic as far as new characters. And Glen finding Rick while having a bunch of the camp mates with him. In the comic Glen was alone.

Thought they did some good foreshadowing of how different Shane and Rick are with Shane's attitude about the folks in the dept sore being as good as dead.

Thank god they already green lit season two...


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## Hand of Evil (Nov 8, 2010)

Very pleased with the second one, did some great moral questions.


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## LightPhoenix (Nov 8, 2010)

I'm ambivalent on this episode, mostly because I've read the comic.  This episode diverged a whole lot from the comic, and IMO not for the better.  Ignoring that, I thought it was a pretty decent episode.

I'm gonna throw my specific comments behind a spoiler block, since the comic informs the show.  There will be slight comments on future arcs based on the comic, so don't read if you want absolute non-spoilerage.

[sblock]There were two things that I really didn't like about the episode based on the comic.

The first is Glenn bringing others into Atlanta.  That's just not something Comic Glenn would do.  One of the whole points of Glenn's story is that he starts off as something of a loner, and that's part of what makes him good at scavenging.  Of course, that framed the whole episode, so it was tough for me to really get into it.

The second is Lori's relationship with Shane.  This one I'm trying to give the benefit of the doubt, since Lori does in fact sleep with Shane in the comic.  The big reason I'm hesitant is because it's clear in the comic Lori thinks it was a mistake, even before she found out Rick was alive.  Still, in the comic, it happens before we're introduced to the group, and I'm liking that we get to see a bit of them before Rick does.

I kept expecting a lot of the non-comic people to die.  Hell, some of them barely got names, and I don't think Zoning Lady did at all.  I'm hoping the people that die in the comic still die in the show; their deaths are a big part of the story.

There were two beats I loved in the episode.  Andrea and the gun was a nice touch, especially given her character arc.  Same with Rick and reciting the guy's info.[/sblock]


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## Blastin (Nov 9, 2010)

I hand kinda the same thoughts about the "new" characters: "heh....new zombie snacks." 

It should be interesting to see if they are going to be red shirts or if they will become more part of the story. The conflict because of the brothers (one of whom they left on the roof) should be interesting.


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## Sutekh (Nov 9, 2010)

Rooftop guy is more likely to be dehydration dead than a fresh zombie because of their inability to climb . Ive always found Michael Rooker to be a forceful actor , and as soon as I saw him with the rifle I knew his character was going to be antagonistic. He does it well.

I think what Rick fails to understand is that just because situations change, someone with deep set values  (such as Racial hatred) arnt going to just change. I think its something a lot of tv shows dont really ever touch but the Walking dead needs to because of its very nature.  It could be said the zombies are the ultimate equals, black and white zombies abound and none is any tougher than another.. or weaker. 

My thoughts

* As soon as the Sewer system was mentioned I knew that plan was gonna go bad.  In a dark enclosed space with a walker? Freaky!

* The cutting up of the zombie? I was on the train watching this and my face definetly showed signs of disgust.


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## Fast Learner (Nov 9, 2010)

Sutekh said:


> I think what Rick fails to understand is that just because situations change, someone with deep set values  (such as Racial hatred) arnt going to just change.




I am of the firm belief that most racism (and homophobia, misogyny, religious intolerance, etc.) is based in fear. Fear of the other, the unknown, the ones you don't know how to rank yourself against (in the case of dominance), the ones whose beliefs are different from yours but just as deep (and how can that be?), the ones you can't understand because you don't speak their language, etc. People don't like to be afraid and adjust by transforming it into anger and even violence.

In desperate situations like this such fear will only be multiplied. It's possible that, given enough time and a lack of support by people like you (because there just aren't enough around), such fear will subside and attitudes can be changed. If there are others with the same fears, though, they'll end up multiplying yours and you theirs, turning fearful anger into deep, violent hatred.

Hard to say if there are enough people in this zombpocalypse world to re-form hate/intolerance groups, but it wouldn't be surprising.


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## Janx (Nov 9, 2010)

Fast Learner said:


> ...snip...
> 
> It's possible that, given enough time and a lack of support by people like you (because there just aren't enough around)





I'm sorry, but this reads like you just called sutekh a racist.

Suggesting that racism would die in ZombieLand if there was a lack of support by people like sutekh is how that reads in English.

I assume that's not what you meant to imply.


As for Racism being Fear based, I just don't buy it.  While there's prolly some racists quivering in their bed worrying about the whatchamacallits getting with his women and taking his job, and racists using fear of "what the watchamacallits are gonna do", most of the die hard racists strike me more as sociopaths seeking dominance.  And Sociopaths aren't really afraid of anything.

Ultimately, the racist on the roof is the bad human you shoot at his first sign of trouble during the Zombie Apocolypse.  He got better than he deserved because he wasn't wired as the kind of human that was going to help rebuild society, regardless of his zombie-killing prowess.


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## Krug (Nov 9, 2010)

Well in a way it's good that they deviated from the comic book. Being too faithful can be a bit of a crutch. I agree that Glenn should be more of a loner, but happy to see an Asian character who isn't a kungfu nerd for once.


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## renau1g (Nov 9, 2010)

Krug said:


> Well in a way it's good that they deviated from the comic book. Being too faithful can be a bit of a crutch. I agree that Glenn should be more of a loner, but happy to see an Asian character who isn't a kungfu nerd for once.




Yeah I was glad for the divergence as well. I've already read the comics so a simple re-hash of that (as good as the comic is) would likely be less appealing for me than the way they're going. I just hope that the expected "red shirts" deaths don't impact other deaths that may or may not occur to main characters. (ok it's a zombie series, of course _someone_ bites it).

The great thing with the comic was that you were attached to many of the characters before their deaths. There's currently too many to get attached to and I hope they "thin the herd" soon.


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## Janx (Nov 9, 2010)

Krug said:


> Well in a way it's good that they deviated from the comic book. Being too faithful can be a bit of a crutch. I agree that Glenn should be more of a loner, but happy to see an Asian character who isn't a kungfu nerd for once.




For TV series, I think it's even better that it diverges from printed material.  A TV show, in theory, needs more episodes than a book might provide if interpreteted  directly.

Furthermore, the ways something is told in one medium doesn't always make for good telling in another.  Hence LotR's divergence from the novel.


Thus far, the show to me is all about Rick, and only forks to other characters because they're going to intersect with him.  In this case, his budddy who's doing his wife.  I'm OK with that.

Since they showed the tool box get dropped with a hacksaw, you just know the racist guy is going to get to it (or chew off his hand).  So that'll come back, along with his brother.


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## Stoat (Nov 9, 2010)

A Nitpick:

Why would Glenn and the other refugees head into downtown Atlanta to scavenge?  It's pretty clear that their camp is out in the boonies, and Atlanta is surrounded by a vast suburban sprawl.  To get downtown, the refugees would have to go past dozens of Wal-Mart's, Rite-Aid pharmacies, Sam's Clubs, grocery stores, etc. etc.  

I figured they were just unfortunate souls trapped downtown, and it took me aback to realize they'd gone there voluntarily.


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## renau1g (Nov 9, 2010)

Were they in downtown Atlanta? I just assumed they were just inside the city as the zombies wouldn't have let RIck get that far into the city.


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## Joker (Nov 9, 2010)

Stoat said:


> A Nitpick:
> 
> Why would Glenn and the other refugees head into downtown Atlanta to scavenge?  It's pretty clear that their camp is out in the boonies, and Atlanta is surrounded by a vast suburban sprawl.  To get downtown, the refugees would have to go past dozens of Wal-Mart's, Rite-Aid pharmacies, Sam's Clubs, grocery stores, etc. etc.
> 
> I figured they were just unfortunate souls trapped downtown, and it took me aback to realize they'd gone there voluntarily.




They wanted the tank.

Who wouldn't?


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## Joker (Nov 9, 2010)

Glenn, close your windows.


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## Janx (Nov 9, 2010)

Stoat said:


> A Nitpick:
> 
> Why would Glenn and the other refugees head into downtown Atlanta to scavenge?  It's pretty clear that their camp is out in the boonies, and Atlanta is surrounded by a vast suburban sprawl.  To get downtown, the refugees would have to go past dozens of Wal-Mart's, Rite-Aid pharmacies, Sam's Clubs, grocery stores, etc. etc.
> 
> I figured they were just unfortunate souls trapped downtown, and it took me aback to realize they'd gone there voluntarily.




Excellent point.

Presumably, they were into the city deep enough for buildings to be 2 or more stories tall.  Which ought to be pretty much downtown.

There would have been a ton of stuff to pass BEFORE getting into the heart of the city.  

All for a tank?  A.  they botched that.  B.  How did they know it was there, it was in the heart of the city where no man should dare to tread?

Glenn couldn't close the window, Rick broke it to get into the car.

They should have been raiding walmarts on the fringes, lower population, and if the epidemic hit at night, less likely to have people (zombies) in it.

I'd also consider hitting military bases.  Any kind of military outfit (national guard station) would have supplies, trucks, guns.  Which could then be used to build a zombie killing machine to clean out a small isolated area so they could fortify up.


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## Crothian (Nov 9, 2010)

We don't know what happened as the epidemic hit.  But in panic situations like hurricanes and such walmarts and grocery stores are rushed to by people to buy what they need and to stalk up on items.  And since walmarts at least up here are 24 hour stores it might not have mattered when it hit.  But in every story like these there are always bad choices made bty the main characters.  Not everything thinks well under pressure and in a crisis situation.


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## LightPhoenix (Nov 10, 2010)

Stoat said:


> Why would Glenn and the other refugees head into downtown Atlanta to scavenge?  It's pretty clear that their camp is out in the boonies, and Atlanta is surrounded by a vast suburban sprawl.  To get downtown, the refugees would have to go past dozens of Wal-Mart's, Rite-Aid pharmacies, Sam's Clubs, grocery stores, etc. etc.




In the comic, Glenn explicitly says states he usually sticks to the outskirts.  I forget why he was downtown at that point though.


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## Klaus (Nov 10, 2010)

LightPhoenix said:


> In the comic, Glenn explicitly says states he usually sticks to the outskirts.  I forget why he was downtown at that point though.



Harder and harder to find stuff. Most buildings were packed with walkers.


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## Krug (Nov 10, 2010)

I would think the easier locations have already been looted, but one shouldn't think too much about the logic. Hey it's a zombie movie; my scientifc side refuses to believe the walkers can still go around without sustenance for ages, but I just enjoy the show/comic for the human drama.


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## IronWolf (Nov 10, 2010)

Finally watched this week's episode.  Still enjoying it!


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## Sutekh (Nov 10, 2010)

I don't for one second think that Fastlearner meant that I was a racist. Im certainly a Zombist though (they all gotta die!  ) As an Australian I dont ever see a large amount of Racism, not to the extent that other countries do and have. 

I was under the impression that the outlying shops would of been looted already so people would make their way further into the center. It may of been 'safe' before the Rick indicent with the Tank and all the loud noises but, the helicopter noise was still never really fully explained. I know I heard it, I know Rick heard it. Is there still possibly a 'military' presence out there?


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## Stoat (Nov 10, 2010)

The Walking Dead Google Map (which appears to be based on the comix and seems spoilerrific) puts the refugee camp at a quarry a half-mile or so from Georgia Tech.  That makes Glenn's trip downtown make a little more sense.  He's only going a mile or so and he's already well past the 'burbs.

THE WALKING DEAD GOOGLE MAP - Google Maps


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## Fast Learner (Nov 10, 2010)

Janx said:


> I'm sorry, but this reads like you just called sutekh a racist.
> 
> Suggesting that racism would die in ZombieLand if there was a lack of support by people like sutekh is how that reads in English.
> 
> I assume that's not what you meant to imply.




I cannot even _remotely fathom_ how you read it that way, and am pleased that Sutekh did not. 

As to the causes of intolerance, this definitely isn't the site to discuss it, and I shouldn't have engaged the topic.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Nov 10, 2010)

> Hard to say if there are enough people in this zombpocalypse world to re-form hate/intolerance groups, but it wouldn't be surprising.




Haters like that would probably survive the Chewed World Hors D'oeuvres- many fringe hate groups have isolated, fortified compounds full of weapons, accessible to their elites, if noone else.

Sure, some would collapse, but the better organized ones would do as well as military bases.


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## Sutekh (Nov 10, 2010)

Danny brings up a damn good point. Now we know that the military looked to have had their ass kicked in Atlanta. The tank and the sandbags and the big guns we saw were all deserted and picked over areas. Im inclined to believe that while they didnt get overwhelmed quickly,it still progressed rapidly. What is more interesting is that if this is set 'now' , a large chunk of US forces are overseas on deployment which makes it far more likely to me that what was left couldnt contain the menace.  Assuming world events being world evens in the Walking Dead of course.

Of course I could be way off base.

Id be looting dem military bases though 

Speaking of military equipment though, are todays nuclear power plants dotted across America in need of TLC on a regular basis so they dont have .. hiccups? Im assuming the zombies dont make for good people to tend to complex machinery.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Nov 10, 2010)

> Danny brings up a damn good point. Now we know that the military looked to have had their ass kicked in Atlanta.



For most people, it's hard to shoot or use force against someone you know or think you know or reminds you of people you know...look at those old Tienamen Square videos.

But the white separatists and similarly armed, paranoid & insular groups are going to be defaulting to an "us or them" mindset...and will be expecting enemies.  If they recognize the zombie threat early enough, they'll probably do just fine.



> Speaking of military equipment though, are todays nuclear power plants dotted across America in need of TLC on a regular basis so they dont have .. hiccups? Im assuming the zombies dont make for good people to tend to complex machinery.



Homer Simpson seems to handle it pretty well.


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## LightPhoenix (Nov 10, 2010)

Sutekh said:


> Speaking of military equipment though, are todays nuclear power plants dotted across America in need of TLC on a regular basis so they dont have .. hiccups? Im assuming the zombies dont make for good people to tend to complex machinery.




My understanding is that most, if not all, nuclear reactors have safeguards in place to quench reactions if there's no human input for a certain amount of time.


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## Hand of Evil (Nov 10, 2010)

LightPhoenix said:


> My understanding is that most, if not all, nuclear reactors have safeguards in place to quench reactions if there's no human input for a certain amount of time.




Watch Life without Humans on The History Channel - the plants will shut down after a few days BUT it is the cooling rods that will be the issue.  They are in tanks of water, when the water goes because of the heat from the expended rod, things go BOOM.  It will be mostly a dirty bomb, not the mushroom cloud but lots of RADs as the winds takes it.  This will take place within a year.  

But that is not all, you have dams that will start to fail within a year to five, which will cause flooding.  You have trains of Chlorine gas just waiting to rust out or something else happens, which will create fogs of doom.  Then there are all those gas lines, oil refineres and storage units.  Oh, lets not forget Kudzu, it will take over Atlanta within 5 years.  Yep, they discussed this on Life after Humans.  Then, there will be the wild fires that will hit the cities hard.


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## Klaus (Nov 10, 2010)

Hand of Evil said:


> Watch Life without Humans on The History Channel - the plants will shut down after a few days BUT it is the cooling rods that will be the issue.  They are in tanks of water, when the water goes because of the heat from the expended rod, things go BOOM.  It will be mostly a dirty bomb, not the mushroom cloud but lots of RADs as the winds takes it.  This will take place within a year.
> 
> But that is not all, you have dams that will start to fail within a year to five, which will cause flooding.  You have trains of Chlorine gas just waiting to rust out or something else happens, which will create fogs of doom.  Then there are all those gas lines, oil refineres and storage units.  Oh, lets not forget Kudzu, it will take over Atlanta within 5 years.  Yep, they discussed this on Life after Humans.  Then, there will be the wild fires that will hit the cities hard.



Yeah, Life Without Humans won't be a Garden of Eden. But TWD takes place pretty soon by those standards, so we have some time before it becomes Thundarr's world... 

Back to the second episode, I was most surprised to see zombies using rocks to break the glass doors. And later on, *running* (not a mere shuffle, but an all-out run) after Rick and Glenn and then that one zombie *leaping* over the chain-link fence!

Also, the "zombie sniffing" got a little too blatant in this episode. In the comic, the zombies simply ignored them, but in the TV series they seemed like police dogs (should they even be breathing?).


----------



## LightPhoenix (Nov 10, 2010)

Hand of Evil said:


> Watch Life without Humans on The History Channel - the plants will shut down after a few days BUT it is the cooling rods that will be the issue.  They are in tanks of water, when the water goes because of the heat from the expended rod, things go BOOM.  It will be mostly a dirty bomb, not the mushroom cloud but lots of RADs as the winds takes it.  This will take place within a year.




Sounds interesting, I'll have to seek it out!


----------



## renau1g (Nov 10, 2010)

Klaus said:


> Back to the second episode, I was most surprised to see zombies using rocks to break the glass doors. And later on, *running* (not a mere shuffle, but an all-out run) after Rick and Glenn and then that one zombie *leaping* over the chain-link fence!
> 
> Also, the "zombie sniffing" got a little too blatant in this episode. In the comic, the zombies simply ignored them, but in the TV series they seemed like police dogs (should they even be breathing?).




Yeah, the zombies seem like a cross between 28 Days Later/Dawn of the Dead Remake fast zombies/infected and the traditional Romero zombies (which the comic has as their choice for zombies). The whole leaping over the fence things would make it hard when 



Spoiler



they settle into the prison later (if the series gets there)





LightPhoenix said:


> Sounds interesting, I'll have to seek it out!




An awesome show. My wife & I loved it. We're right near Detroit, so the one that featured them was cool "Hey, I know that place" was frequently said by us.


----------



## Klaus (Nov 10, 2010)

I prefer the comic zombies. Their slow, unstoppable approach creates more tension for me. The leaping over the fence was too much for me.


----------



## Morrus (Nov 11, 2010)

jcayer said:


> It was the most intense show I have ever seen on TV.




Really?

It's not bad (well, it's pretty good) but it's nowhere near the top 100 intense shows I've seen on TV.


----------



## Richards (Nov 13, 2010)

For those wishing they had "gotten in on the ground floor" as it were with this series, AMC is airing the first two episodes of "The Walking Dead" with limited commercial interruption (which is how you fit a 90-minute episode and a 60-minute episode into a two-hour time slot) this Sunday, starting two hours before normal.  (I watch "The Walking Dead" at 9 PM in my time zone, so it starts at 7 PM.)  And then the third episode starts immediately afterward, in its normal time slot.

Johnathan


----------



## Remus Lupin (Nov 13, 2010)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Because that is the most boring variant of basketball ever invented:
> 
> "baalllll"
> _*thwipp tang tang tang*_
> ...




"You must spread some XP around before giving to Danny Alcatraz again." DANG!


----------



## Umbran (Nov 14, 2010)

renau1g said:


> I do agree about the IV bag, but c'est la vie. If that's the one thing that's being identified in the show, I'll take it




I have only just watched the first episode, and I haven't read the comic, so I'm not reading too far in this thread to avoid spoilers.  However, a point about the IV bag...

If the bag were on a pump, rather than a straight drip, and that pump shut off when power went out, some remaining in the bag would be explained.

The flowers can be a touch misleading.  They tell you how long it is after his buddy dropped them off, but he could have been cared for for some time after that - just the caregivers didn't bother removing the dead flowers.


----------



## Klaus (Nov 14, 2010)

From the arrayed bodies outside the hospital, we know that it functioned for quite some time after the zombie thing.


----------



## Janx (Nov 14, 2010)

Klaus said:


> From the arrayed bodies outside the hospital, we know that it functioned for quite some time after the zombie thing.




Not only that, it was a relatively controlled position when they left.

Considering a room was locked and labeled.  No random wandering zombies in the halls (stuck in the building) after killing the last of the hospital staff.  Basically, the last humans left a secured place.  Well, there was the one... 

I would assume, that to explain the chopper outside, is they succombed to an outdoor attack, and the zombies had since wandered off.


----------



## Hand of Evil (Nov 15, 2010)

Do wish they would show a time line, it would be interesting to see. 

Kind of surprised they have not gone to shields, hammers, picks and maces to fight the zombies.  I would also be looking at zombie death traps.  Also, maps...this is Georgia, the south, there is a Wal-Mart every five to ten miles, also farms.  These people have yet to prove they are smarter than the walking dead.

Still love the show.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz (Nov 15, 2010)

Hammers they could get, but bats and pipes give more reach.  Picks would be rarer- in a city, you'd have to get into a mountaineering store or a construction site of some sort.

Shields would have to be made unless you have access to riot gear...anyone want to raid a big city police station?  If there are survivors, you risk getting shot.  If there are none, you could get trapped, especially if you can't find the keys and set off alarms. _ *blaaat blaaat DINNER blaaat blaaat*_

And maces?  You'd definitely only find those lying around in certain museums.


----------



## Klaus (Nov 15, 2010)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Hammers they could get, but bats and pipes give more reach.  Picks would be rarer- in a city, you'd have to get into a mountaineering store or a construction site of some sort.
> 
> Shields would have to be made unless you have access to riot gear...anyone want to raid a big city police station?  If there are survivors, you risk getting shot.  If there are none, you could get trapped, especially if you can't find the keys and set off alarms. _ *blaaat blaaat DINNER blaaat blaaat*_
> 
> And maces?  You'd definitely only find those lying around in certain museums.



Cue in Gamma World-style "STOP" sign shields.







And looking at that picture, a baseball bat with some nails driven through it would make quite the morningstar.


----------



## Remus Lupin (Nov 15, 2010)

Dang, now I want to play Gamma World!


----------



## Hand of Evil (Nov 15, 2010)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> And maces?  You'd definitely only find those lying around in certain museums.




Not in Georgia, there is a place off of 402 exit on I20 that makes them.   the warhammers would be the best weapon for the job.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Nov 15, 2010)

Hand of Evil said:


> Not in Georgia, there is a place off of 402 exit on I20 that makes them.   the warhammers would be the best weapon for the job.




I could find some in the Dallas area, too...but I'm a gamer.  And I know people in SCA.  I can put my hands on all kinds of archaic weaponry.

Compare that to these guys- a sheriff a long way from home, a housewife, a deputy, a white supremacist, etc.  They're not going to know JACK about that kind of stuff.


----------



## Hand of Evil (Nov 15, 2010)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> I could find some in the Dallas area, too...but I'm a gamer.  And I know people in SCA.  I can put my hands on all kinds of archaic weaponry.
> 
> Compare that to these guys- a sheriff a long way from home, a housewife, a deputy, a white supremacist, etc.  They're not going to know JACK about that kind of stuff.




Yep, but they should know of the bases in the area.  Hell, I think I may head to old Fort Jackson in Savannah, you have the Trenton near by too, then you have river access.  These guys are still living out in the open and from what I can tell, with only a single exit!!!


----------



## Klaus (Nov 15, 2010)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> I could find some in the Dallas area, too...but I'm a gamer.  And I know people in SCA.  I can put my hands on all kinds of archaic weaponry.
> 
> Compare that to these guys- a sheriff a long way from home, a housewife, a deputy, a white supremacist, etc.  They're not going to know JACK about that kind of stuff.



Okay, now we need to see how the Medieval reenactment types are faring...


----------



## Dannyalcatraz (Nov 15, 2010)

Hand of Evil said:


> Yep, but they should know of the bases in the area.  Hell, I think I may head to old Fort Jackson in Savannah, you have the Trenton near by too, then you have river access.  These guys are still living out in the open and from what I can tell, with only a single exit!!!




The same hazards exist for hitting a base as hitting a police station, only moreso: any survivors there may have trouble distinguishing you from the walkers; everything nifty is under lock & key, and without the right keys, you set off alarms which will put you on the menu; bases are noisy places to start off with- the base may be surrounded or overrun with Walkers already.



Klaus said:


> Okay, now we need to see how the Medieval reenactment types are faring...




"Hey Marty, kewl zombie makeup!  LARPing this weekend?"

"glllllaaaaargh!"

"That rocks, dude!  Whoa- even got some stench for authenticity!"

"glllllaaaaargh!"

"Uh...that's close enough..."

"GLAAAAARRRRaaargh!"

"DUDE!  No, duuu"*_gurgle_*


----------



## Remus Lupin (Nov 15, 2010)

If there are any concentrated areas of human habitation left, i'd bet on the military bases. I'd expect at least a few deep underground bunkers housing military staff and scientists trying to find ways to combat the Zeds. Of course, in classic G.A. Romero style, they'd actually be worse than the zombies their fighting.


----------



## Hand of Evil (Nov 15, 2010)

Remus Lupin said:


> If there are any concentrated areas of human habitation left, i'd bet on the military bases. I'd expect at least a few deep underground bunkers housing military staff and scientists trying to find ways to combat the Zeds. Of course, in classic G.A. Romero style, they'd actually be worse than the zombies their fighting.




That will be the CDC in Atlanta


----------



## Remus Lupin (Nov 15, 2010)

Now, I haven't read the comics yet. Are you giving spoliers?


----------



## Klaus (Nov 15, 2010)

Remus Lupin said:


> Now, I haven't read the comics yet. Are you giving spoliers?



Nah. Once they leave the camp, the comic doesn't return to Atlanta (or hasn't yet, it's close to issue 80).


----------



## Remus Lupin (Nov 15, 2010)

Ok. That would make a pretty awesome Romero-eque plot development though, a la "Day of the Dead."


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## FoxWander (Nov 16, 2010)

Remus Lupin said:


> Ok. That would make a pretty awesome Romero-eque plot development though, a la "Day of the Dead."




Yeah, but if they did that they'd be universally panned as just ripping-off Romero.  They've got plenty of awesome coming if they just stick to the comics general plot line.  Aside from the 28-days-later-esque beginning (and I'm not sure which did that first- WD or 28 Days?) they don't have to crib off anybody.

I am worried that all the drama the show is gen'ing up is just to have more drama. Doesn't zombie survival horror have enough drama already?!  While I don't want a complete re-tread of the comic, they've already skewed the story off several times.  While it's all pretty awesome so far, I worry that they'll get derailed from the book's core plot points and get too much soap opera in my zombie apocalypse!


----------



## Krug (Nov 16, 2010)

Yeah.. a reentry into the city to save a jerk kinda stretched credibility. I guess it's going to tie into the helicopter that we saw in part 2. Still, not following the comics does kinda keep things surprising. I expect a walker to jump out from every unseen nook and cranny, such as the pond they're using for washing.


----------



## Klaus (Nov 16, 2010)

FoxWander said:


> Yeah, but if they did that they'd be universally panned as just ripping-off Romero.  They've got plenty of awesome coming if they just stick to the comics general plot line.  Aside from the 28-days-later-esque beginning (and I'm not sure which did that first- WD or 28 Days?) they don't have to crib off anybody.
> 
> I am worried that all the drama the show is gen'ing up is just to have more drama. Doesn't zombie survival horror have enough drama already?!  While I don't want a complete re-tread of the comic, they've already skewed the story off several times.  While it's all pretty awesome so far, I worry that they'll get derailed from the book's core plot points and get too much soap opera in my zombie apocalypse!



TWD #1 came out before 28 Days Later.


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## Janx (Nov 17, 2010)

Krug said:


> Yeah.. a reentry into the city to save a jerk kinda stretched credibility. I guess it's going to tie into the helicopter that we saw in part 2. Still, not following the comics does kinda keep things surprising. I expect a walker to jump out from every unseen nook and cranny, such as the pond they're using for washing.




Speaking of jerks, who taught him how to use a hacksaw?

He had plenty of time to look around for the hacksaw.

when reaching for a hacksaw that is just beyond your arm reach, rotate your body and use your foot.  It's not rocket science.


On the drive back to Atlanta, they had plenty of time to paint a sign to say stay out, or come up with  a story.


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## IronWolf (Nov 17, 2010)

Krug said:


> Still, not following the comics does kinda keep things surprising. I expect a walker to jump out from every unseen nook and cranny, such as the pond they're using for washing.




No kidding!  I thought for sure something was going to happen at the quarry!


----------



## LightPhoenix (Nov 17, 2010)

I liked this episode a lot more than the last.

It's clear to me now that this season is going to end where the first novel did.

Glad to say I was wrong to hesitant about Lori and Shane.  I don't think it was as messed up as it was in the comic.  Still, I think they did a good job convincing me that a) Lori would have gone for Shane, and b) Shane is a dick.  It was satisfying, if that's the right word for it.

I could have done without the washing circle scene.  There's a similar scene in the comic, but minus the misogynist guy.  It's also a bit more interesting - Lori tells the story of how she met Rick.  Also, it's a little less sexist in the comic - while Lori and the gang are washing clothes, Rick and Shane are off hunting and Glenn is (IIRC) back in Atlanta.  With all the extra characters, I guess they felt they needed to make the point of people not doing work.  Still, the scene didn't really add anything, except to show Shane freaking out.

I was really glad to see Merle using a bow - that's a long-standing gripe among the comic viewers.

Given how the Lori/Shane thing turned out, I'm a little less hesitant on Hacksaw guy cutting off his hand.  Still, a tourniquet is not a magical cure for amputation, and I was hoping for something a little more realistic from the show.  I don't even remember seeing blood, and there's no way a self-amputation with a hacksaw would be that neat and clean.


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## Sutekh (Nov 17, 2010)

Rick was more interested in Helping out Morgan and son then with saving Merle. That was a side 'bonus'. He owes almost everything to Morgan so it made sense he would risk himself to help Morgan out. Morgan might not approach Atlanta the same way etc

and we wanted those guns. 

Most of you guys are Americans, arnt Guns plentiful there.. I saw that large calibre machine gun in episode 1 and 2!


----------



## Klaus (Nov 17, 2010)

LightPhoenix said:


> I liked this episode a lot more than the last.
> 
> It's clear to me now that this season is going to end where the first novel did.
> 
> ...



The weird thing is that the misogynist guy/beat up scene happened in the comics just a few months ago, in an entirely different setting: 



Spoiler



it's pretty much a year later, and in a "safe" community outside DC, and it was Rick that went berserk on the guy.


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## LightPhoenix (Nov 17, 2010)

Klaus said:


> The weird thing is that the misogynist guy/beat up scene happened in the comics just a few months ago, in an entirely different setting.




Yeah, interesting timing on that.  I'll have to admit, I'm not as into the current comic arc as I have been previous.  I don't want to bring too many comic spoilers into the thread though.


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## LightPhoenix (Nov 22, 2010)

I feel weird posting after myself.  It seems so profane.  Blah.

Spoilers for the newest episode (#4) behind a spoiler block.

All in all I've been apathetic to the new characters.  However, I think Daryl is pretty awesome, and I'm really hoping he survives.  That business with the hand?  Brilliant.

Also, I'm not keen on how many survivors there are.  New ones seem to be popping up every episode.  What does it really mean to be a survivor if so many people have survived?

[sblock]On the other hand, I was disappointed that more of the survivors didn't die in the zombie attack.  It would have been nice to see some more of the bit players that we're come to accept and/or like to be killed off.  I mean, Dream Guy survives?  Really?  Thin out the herd, that's what they're there for.

I had forgotten Amy dies this early into the story.  Amy's death is really what moves the story arc forward, and it means more with less people in the story.  

I think this is one point where the show _should_ have taken advantage of the divergence from the comic - kill more of the bit players we've come to know and like.  Amy still dies, but the fact that so many people die accomplishes the same thing, if not even more so.  Make it absolutely crushing, because that's what moves the story forward.[/sblock]


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## Remus Lupin (Nov 22, 2010)

Well, I think the key now is that they realized that their campsite is definitively NOT SAFE. Based on the previews for next week, they're planning to move on. There was a lot of awesome in this episode, and the survivors in Atlanta seem to cut against the grain of the "everybody turns horrible in the zombiepocalypse" theme that's so much a part of the literature.


----------



## renau1g (Nov 23, 2010)

[sblock=Spoilers]
The Atlanta survivors was great and terrible... it was a heavy divergence from the themes of the books, with the exception of Herschel and _potentially_ the newest neighbourhood they're in near Washington everyone else has turned to near-animals. ALthough it _is_ pretty early on in the series, but damn start killing all the extras. The only one I like is Daryl. First, he uses a crossbow. Smart. Second he is ruthless, with using the hand of his brother to freak out the kid, smart as well. And he can track, useful to the group for hunting food. All in, he's probably the most useful of the survivors, although that leads me to believe he's going to bite the bullet. I was really hoping that the previous scene would cut out the # of extra survivors to a couple or so. 

Oh BTW - what do you all suppose happened to Mearl? [/sblock]


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## Sutekh (Nov 24, 2010)

Merle? 

This is my theory


He Stole the car. Zombies from the city/outlying areas followed the car as he drove towards camp. He stopped not far from Camp, knowing about the string can defense systems he cut them, got back in the van and drove off to parts unklnown. He got a sort of revenge because he knew he couldnt take out the survivors by himself.


----------



## Krug (Nov 24, 2010)

Man they were so exposed, and no guards? Well it was bound to happen I suppose.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Nov 24, 2010)

Remus Lupin said:


> Well, I think the key now is that they realized that their campsite is definitively NOT SAFE. Based on the previews for next week, they're planning to move on. There was a lot of awesome in this episode, and the survivors in Atlanta seem to cut against the grain of the "everybody turns horrible in the zombiepocalypse" theme that's so much a part of the literature.




OTOH, it also sort of verifies what I was talking about earlier: if vatos with guns can survive in fortified positions in a city, so too can militias and other armed groups in fortified positions in the hinterlands.

Hmmm, I wonder if the polygamist groups in Utah's mountains teach the sister-wives to shoot?

And considering the 20th century of the American Southwest, I wonder if there are ANY zombies where we did nuclear weapon testing?


----------



## Klaus (Nov 24, 2010)

Krug said:


> Man they were so exposed, and no guards? Well it was bound to happen I suppose.



To be fair, they rigged strings with cans all around the perimeter. The walkers seemed to have bypassed those...

[sblock]
with the help of Merle, probably.
[/sblock]


----------



## renau1g (Nov 24, 2010)

I guess I just hope they do have Merle in it still. It would be very unsatisfying if he just "disappeared"


----------



## Felon (Nov 24, 2010)

Well, if Merle did disable the cans, then he was also setting his brother up to be Zombie Chow.

Then again, he's not that good at thinking things through. Folks, if you're ever stuck in a situation where you can only get out of handcuffs by using a hacksaw on yourself, don't cut off your entire hand. Just take out the thumb section and slip the rest through. And that should only occur after trying to break some bones.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz (Nov 24, 2010)

Words to grow on!


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## IronWolf (Nov 25, 2010)

Sutekh said:


> Merle?
> 
> This is my theory
> 
> ...




Yeah - I am thinking he must have had something to do with it to get that many zombies close to the campsite.


----------



## Crothian (Nov 25, 2010)

I hope he had nothing to do with it.  Zombies are dangerious enough and they don't need someone to lead them to food.


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## renau1g (Nov 27, 2010)

Well they also did have the car alarm going for a while that may have also helped attract the zombies. Remember in the books where they explain about a gunshot acting like a net to attract them... a car alarm blaring constantly for the whole time from Atlanta to their camp would be far worse (despite RIck's comment about the sound echoing around the area's hills)


----------



## IronWolf (Nov 27, 2010)

renau1g said:


> Well they also did have the car alarm going for a while that may have also helped attract the zombies. Remember in the books where they explain about a gunshot acting like a net to attract them... a car alarm blaring constantly for the whole time from Atlanta to their camp would be far worse (despite RIck's comment about the sound echoing around the area's hills)




True! I had forgotten about the car alarm, though when Glenn pulled blazing into camp with it still going I had thoughts that might attract more zombies to camp.  It had just slipped my mind.


----------



## Hand of Evil (Nov 27, 2010)

again, I will say it, they have not proven to be smarter than the zombies.    being outside is not a good idea, period.  They would have been better to be out in a field with clear view than where they were.


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## Klaus (Nov 27, 2010)

Hand of Evil said:


> again, I will say it, they have not proven to be smarter than the zombies.    being outside is not a good idea, period.  They would have been better to be out in a field with clear view than where they were.



Yep. And doing some earthworks (trenches, spikes drivne into the ground) to make zombie approach harder. If the zombies are in greater number, they have to negate that advantage by having a single means of approach (q.v. Thermopylae). The quarry guarding one side is a good start.


----------



## FoxWander (Nov 28, 2010)

Hand of Evil said:


> again, I will say it, they have not proven to be smarter than the zombies.    being outside is not a good idea, period.  They would have been better to be out in a field with clear view than where they were.




Yes, this is the main thing that ultimately bugs me about most zombie stuff (movies/shows/whatever).  I can suspend my disbelief enough to accept that most of these things are setup in worlds that don't have zombie movies. I.e.- before the outbreak happens nobody has ever thought of or, obviously, dealt with zombies before. So there's no 'zombie survival guide' in these scenarios, and certainly no zombie fans (like us) who have contemplated, or even roleplayed, how to deal with a zombie outbreak.  I can accept that this unrealistic idea is necessary for the complete unrealism of actual zombies to work as a story. 

But, despite this lack of foreknowledge or planning, most survivors in these flicks never LEARN how to deal with the situation they're in!  In TWD these people have had _weeks_ to get over their shellshock, accept the situation, and make meaningful effective plans and counter-measures.  Or at least attempt to do so.  But they don't.  As pointed out- they're out in the open with just a line of noisemakers (right at the edge of camp no less) and a SINGLE lookout for warning. And they've blocked most of their visibility so that lookout is barely effective. As Klaus mentioned, they've got the quarry on one side BUT they're so far away from it that it's actually just another front to watch.  And...

Well, I'm sure I (we) could pick the show apart this way in typical "nerd-rage" fashion ad nauseum, but I don't want to do that.  I really LIKE the show and I'll be tuning in every week (well, DVRing every week) for as long as it last.  BUT- I'd enjoy it (or ANY zombie flick) _so much more_ if they could just deal with the situation :realistically: using characters that actually _think_ about what they're doing and plan intelligently based on the capabilities of the enemy (zombies)- AND do all this WITHOUT injecting unnecessary drama for drama's sake!  The situation will provide all the drama a show could need without inventing more AND without giving your characters dramatic-stupidity just to ratchet up the tension.  The comic managed to do this (in it's own way), but every week the show seems to veer slightly more away from this ideal.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz (Nov 28, 2010)

On survivors not learning: look around you very carefully and you'll find that you're living in a world full of people who don't understand what it takes to survive...and never will.

There was a reality show a few years ago featuring kids surviving on their own.  One of the kids lived on a farm, so he caught, killed and cleaned a chicken: animal rights groups and parents were outraged!  Nevermind this happens every day on farms throughout the world, and the kids needed food.

Or to put it a different way, the things we gamers see as obvious...aren't.  Most people don't understand about LoS and making a position defensible.  Those people thought about getting away, and that isolation and concealment were their best defenses (and they may still be right about that, despite recent results).

They kept fires low.  They had a (shoddy) alarm system.  They kept a sentry on duty with a high vantage point.  They thought about ammo & firearms.  They have a few axes.

They only seem to have one shovel, though- making trench digging tough.

What they need is a clearing, yes, but one that is still concealed, with a patrolled perimeter.  Not that they have enough people for that...


----------



## Crothian (Nov 28, 2010)

FoxWander said:


> But, despite this lack of foreknowledge or planning, most survivors in these flicks never LEARN how to deal with the situation they're in!




Many people that are shell shocked takes years to get over it if they ever do.  And look around, many people do not learn from their own mistakes.  They convinced themselves they were safe.  People crack under stress and this is real stress, survival, not the little stresses that people fail to deal with in the real world.  Even if there are zombie movies and zombie survival guides, it is not like they are mandatory reading or that many people know about them.  They might be making bad choices but that is realistic as looking around I see people make bad choices, the sames ones some times, all the time.


----------



## Klaus (Nov 28, 2010)

To TWD's defense: in the comic they *do* learn from their mistakes, and are always thinking of ways to improve their situation.


----------



## Remus Lupin (Nov 29, 2010)

I can't be too hard on them. If all of this has taken place in an apparently very short period of time, it's hard to know how they would react. It's not like they've had months to develop a plan. I imagine that they had only been camped outside of Atlanta for a week, maybe two, after having arrived and found the place a wasteland. They're ordinary people, not zombie-fic loving geeks who have "The Zombie Survival Guide" on their bedstands.

Now, after last night's episode, they're beginning to develop more of a long-term plan. They I think I would have opted to make for Fort Benning myself. Though again, knowing my Z-lit, it would have turned out that the military had hunkered down to defend its turf and not allowed anyone in. As a result, the bodies, and the zombies, would be stacked like cord-wood around the perimeter, even worse than at the CDC.


----------



## Hand of Evil (Nov 29, 2010)

Think we got your first time line, 63 days after the virus went global.  Still, not a lot but figure 2.5 months after the lead was shot.  

Think the virus was loose at the time he was shot but isolated, then started to spread and he woke up about two weeks after the panic and rush to Atlanta.


----------



## Remus Lupin (Nov 29, 2010)

Actually, what bothers me most about the brevity of the time line is how quickly it means his wife jumped into bed with his buddy. Mourning period? What mourning period?

PS., And that old guy with the beard -- he knows what's going on.


----------



## LightPhoenix (Nov 29, 2010)

At this point in the thread, it should come as no shock that I'm a big fan of the comic.  I'm willing to look past most of the little things as long as the overall story is intact.  Even the Atlanta stuff I wasn't pleased with, but willing to let slide.  However, this episode was too much.  As far as I'm concerned, this is no longer The Walking Dead.  It's a zombie show, but not a comic adaptation any more, except in name only.  To say I'm disappointed is an understatement, to say the least.

Otherwise, there were some nice character beats from almost everyone.  I found it hard to care about Jim since he only showed up last episode, but still well acted.

The CDC plan is just stupid.  Rick is dumb, but he's not _that_ dumb.  Going towards the city with a bunch of defenseless people is idiotic.  If the CDC didn't pan out, they were stranded?  Even worse.  I don't see Shane going for that plan, no matter how shamed he is about Lori and aiming for Rick.



Remus Lupin said:


> PS., And that old guy with the beard -- he knows what's going on.




That's because Dale is awesome, no matter what medium.


----------



## Crothian (Nov 29, 2010)

I've seen small mourning periods from people and that's without the stress of the world ending around them, so not that big of deal.  Interesting to see what the CDC guy does next week.


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## Sutekh (Nov 30, 2010)

LightPhoenix: I think you are going to struggle to like this show because of your personal investment in the comic. Ive never read an issue although Ive heard of it. I think its based on the comic but thats it. 

I thoroughly loved this episode myself. From the Shane momentarily thinking about shooting down Rick to a certain sister coming back from the dead. The necklace scene was a lovely touch and when those  eyes opened, I did have a tear... and then jumped when the screen went to Daryl swinging the pickaxe. Damn thats a nasty weapon. 

Daryl is fast becoming one of my fave characters like Glen.

The group had to make a decision. I sided with Rick. The CDC was closer, the cars were in poor condition (note the overheat on the way). Rick breaking down was so going to happen but the sliding door opening up.. another level of awesome.


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## RangerWickett (Nov 30, 2010)

I was amused that that wasn't actually the CDC. Maybe it was a satellite installation elsewhere in Atlanta, or somewhere deeper in the facility that civilians like me aren't allowed, but the few times I've been in to get lunch with a friend who works there, it didn't look anything like that.

(Obviously, they weren't going to get access to film at the real CDC. I'm just a tad disappointed there haven't been more Atlanta landmarks.)


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## FoxWander (Nov 30, 2010)

Just saw the last episode...   So... I guess they are completely diverging  from the comic.  Ok, I can accept that- the comic is rather bleak (to put it mildly) and I have to admit I was really doubting that a direct translation would survive long.  So I'll just accept the show as it's own thing and see how they incorporate the comic storyline while going in their own direction. 

Looking at it from that point of view I'll probably be able to enjoy it more.    Taking it as separate from the comic, the "drama for drama's sake" I've been harping on isn't so bad I guess.  My main grief has been the divergence from the comic and _its_ drama- but if they're just using the comic as a guideline, then what drama there has been has made sense for the show as it's set up.  I'll still be annoyed if they take it too far, but I can be more accepting if I stop comparing it to the comic.

As far as being too too critical when it comes to the actions/decisions of the characters... maybe I'm being too harsh there also.  But it just annoys me when characters do stupid things that you just can't imagine someone in that situation actually doing.  When they don't _really_ consider the weird circumstances they're in and act, if not accordingly, then at least intelligently.  This was one of the main complaints people had about _Heroes_ (although in that case it was mainly the writers giving the characters dramatic stupidity to advance the plot-of-the-week).  They hardly ever did things appropriate to someone with those capabilities in that world setting, i.e. I have super powers and I'm in a world where super powers exist- I should consider those aspects when developing my plan.  

But then again, normal folk don't sit back and consider how to act in extremely abnormal situations in the same way that gamers do.  And who's to say that even as big a zombie-fic-geek as I am that come the zombipocalypse I wouldn't just completely lose my $*!% like everyone else and wind up zombie-chow too.  But I just _really_ would love a zombie flick that treated the subject right.  

Ehh- It's still early in the show yet.  Maybe a little of Darryl will rub off on everyone else.  He may be a bit too quick to bury that pickaxe in someone's head, but he's obviously considered and adapted to the situation.


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## Hand of Evil (Nov 30, 2010)

See, they are going to break another rule: Going to the Lab / haunted house / X.  Nothing good ever comes from going to see Scientist in events like this.


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## LightPhoenix (Nov 30, 2010)

Sutekh said:


> LightPhoenix: I think you are going to struggle to like this show because of your personal investment in the comic. Ive never read an issue although Ive heard of it. I think its based on the comic but thats it.




Yeah, I'm fully aware of that.  That's part of the reason why I've tried to lessen my talking about comic spoilers; I'm trying to divorce the two in my head.  Still, with the name and set-up, I was expecting them to follow the comic a little bit more.  I'm still going to watch it; despite my rather melodramatic post, I liked the episode up until the CDC (which I still think is an utterly stupid idea).

I think the comic is a great story, and I really encourage anyone who likes the show, zombie movies, and what not to read it.  It's well worth the time.



FoxWander said:


> Just saw the last episode...   So... I guess they are completely diverging  from the comic.  Ok, I can accept that- the comic is rather bleak (to put it mildly) and I have to admit I was really doubting that a direct translation would survive long.  So I'll just accept the show as it's own thing and see how they incorporate the comic storyline while going in their own direction.
> 
> Looking at it from that point of view I'll probably be able to enjoy it more.    Taking it as separate from the comic, the "drama for drama's sake" I've been harping on isn't so bad I guess.  My main grief has been the divergence from the comic and _its_ drama- but if they're just using the comic as a guideline, then what drama there has been has made sense for the show as it's set up.  I'll still be annoyed if they take it too far, but I can be more accepting if I stop comparing it to the comic.




That's pretty much where I'm at.  I was always a little dubious as to how the show was going to work - for one thing, there's a _lot_ of turnover with people dying.  It doesn't really make for appealing work when you know your character will only last a season at best.  I'm also willing to bet that someone along the line nixed the ending of the first arc.  I'm hoping we still get some of the later characters though.  It'd be great to see Tyrese and Michonne.  I'm also hoping they preserve the nature of the infection; I think it's a neat little twist.


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## Remus Lupin (Nov 30, 2010)

> See, they are going to break another rule: Going to the Lab / haunted house / X. Nothing good ever comes from going to see Scientist in events like this.




"Here, let me just inject you with this Zombie juice. I promise you'll be fine."


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## Krug (Nov 30, 2010)

io9 kind of had it right. The show is suffering from Lost syndrome; demented scientist trapped alone underground? Uhhh...


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## Crothian (Nov 30, 2010)

LightPhoenix said:


> I liked the episode up until the CDC (which I still think is an utterly stupid idea).




Why is it a "utterly stupid idea" ?  I like that they argued about it and listed the reasons for making the choice as well as offering up other ideas.  It seems to be that they have no good idea on where to go so might as well try for a place you know.  Travel anywhere for them is a risk and a gamble.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Nov 30, 2010)

They're caught in the logical whipsaw between "never split the party" and "don't put all your eggs in one basket."


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## Crothian (Nov 30, 2010)

Last time they split the party the camp got hit and people died.


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## Sir Brennen (Nov 30, 2010)

For those ranting about divergence from the comic - the author Robert Kirkman (also an executive producer on the show) has said in an interview ( 'Walking Dead' writer Robert Kirkman talks about last night's episode ) that, in general, the series will stick to the path of the comic. There may be detours and side treks along the way, but overall they will follow the story-arc he originally wrote.

The CDC thing was something I personally wondered about when reading the comic. Kirkman admitted in the same interview that he didn't know it was in Atlanta when he wrote the series. Frank Darabont (producer) pointed out that it would be a logical thing to do since they were in the area.


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## FoxWander (Nov 30, 2010)

Sir Brennen said:


> The CDC thing was something I personally wondered about when reading the comic. Kirkman admitted in the same interview that he didn't know it was in Atlanta when he wrote the series. Frank Darabont (producer) pointed out that it would be a logical thing to do since they were in the area.




Well that's good to know (Kirkman and the CDC) because I seriously wondered why they didn't run by there in the comic as well.  This is also why I decided I was being a little too harsh on the show.  From the character's POV this is some kind of crazy disease/viral outbreak.  If you're right next to the main place that should have answers or offer hope for dealing with it then (sorry LightPhoenix) you would HAVE to go.  Now- taking the whole clan into zombie-central was epically boneheaded BUT after their last scooby-doo fiasco there was no way they were gonna split the party again.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Dec 1, 2010)

Crothian said:


> Last time they split the party the camp got hit and people died.




Right...but every time they move, they risk EVERYONE'S life.


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## Crothian (Dec 1, 2010)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Right...but every time they move, they risk EVERYONE'S life.




Every time they stay in one place they are at risk, too.  The CDC building seems like the first truly impenetrable place we have seen in the show so far.  The show did a good job of establishing that every choice they make has risk involved.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Dec 1, 2010)

Crothian said:


> Every time they stay in one place they are at risk, too.  The CDC building seems like the first truly impenetrable place we have seen in the show so far.  The show did a good job of establishing that every choice they make has risk involved.




Hence the whipsaw: every decision is so incredibly fraught with risk that they risk "analysis paralysis"...and every gamble could result in utter destruction.


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## coyote6 (Dec 1, 2010)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Hence the whipsaw: every decision is so incredibly fraught with risk that they risk "analysis paralysis"...and every gamble could result in utter destruction.




Yeah. Especially add in that pretty much all of them had to have seen people they knew and loved not just killed, but turned into monsters that tried to kill them, and that they know that probably most everyone they ever knew is dead . . . it's not exactly prime conditions for rational decision making.


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## Richards (Dec 1, 2010)

Since Dr. Butterfingers the Clumsy CDC Scientist just lost his best culture sample of necrotic tissues, and has now met up with (or is just about to meet up with) the "main party" in this little adventure, anybody want to bet that there's going to be a little trip in the very near future to go visit Jim the Infected Hole-Digger who's currently leaning against a tree?  I'll bet he's got some interesting cultures currently being grown in his body.

Johnathan


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## Klaus (Dec 1, 2010)

Richards said:


> Since Dr. Butterfingers the Clumsy CDC Scientist just lost his best culture sample of necrotic tissues, and has now met up with (or is just about to meet up with) the "main party" in this little adventure, anybody want to bet that there's going to be a little trip in the very near future to go visit Jim the Infected Hole-Digger who's currently leaning against a tree?  I'll bet he's got some interesting cultures currently being grown in his body.
> 
> Johnathan



I was thinking more along the lines of "finally! test subjects I can infect and harvest cultures in a controlled environment!"


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## Sutekh (Dec 2, 2010)

Id go to the CDC too. DEcontamination facilties, bio lock down procedures. Food supplies.

Also, that Scientist wasnt demented. He was alone , trying to do the work of a bio team by himself and was so tired that he could  not properly do his duties... which resulted in his accident in the lab.


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## FoxWander (Dec 2, 2010)

Sutekh said:


> Id go to the CDC too. DEcontamination facilties, bio lock down procedures. Food supplies.
> 
> Also, that Scientist wasnt demented. He was alone , trying to do the work of a bio team by himself and was so tired that he could properly do his duties... which resulted in his accident in the lab.




Speaking of that accident.  I don't know if we have anybody here that does, or has, worked in a bio-lab, but is _*fireballing*_ the lab actually some kind of "standard protocol"  in the event of a containment breach?   Cause that seemed a little... extreme, to say the least.  Just hoping for some kind of real world check.


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## Krug (Dec 2, 2010)

FoxWander said:


> Speaking of that accident.  I don't know if we have anybody here that does, or has, worked in a bio-lab, but is _*fireballing*_ the lab actually some kind of "standard protocol"  in the event of a containment breach?   Cause that seemed a little... extreme, to say the least.  Just hoping for some kind of real world check.




Somehow... I doubt it.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Dec 2, 2010)

I read a nonfiction book about RW viruses like Ebola, and while I don't recall fireballing contaminated labs as being policy, I do recall the real procedures being similarly dangerous and destructive.  Simply put, they don't want to take chances.


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## Ahnehnois (Dec 2, 2010)

That struck me as being glib and a bit fast-a fireball without any human authorization. That said, real-world biohazard procedures can be quite extreme. The space suit certainly isn't an exaggeration. Even the fireball wouldn't kill some of the more resilient pathogens. And from reading books I know that the scientists inside those suits do frequently knock things over and do damage the suits, which is an even bigger deal than the show seemed to make of it.

In the broader scope of things, it's a great show. The move to the CDC seems very logical to me. Hopefully they get the second season into production quickly.


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## Hand of Evil (Dec 2, 2010)

Where is Diaglo when you need him, he works there!  

It is not a bad idea to go to the CDC, I just think the party does not plan their actions that well, no real thought.  Yes, going to the CDC is a smart move but not thinking about distance, time of day and having a safe house to fall back to.  I know, these people are not gamers but knowing that you will be going through a dead zone with a lot of road blockage, you should have found a safe place to hold up and run back to, then gone on to the CDC.


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## Klaus (Dec 2, 2010)

Krug said:


> Somehow... I doubt it.



Maybe that kind of procedure was put in place between "wildfire" and "epidemic". Whatever "wildfire" was, it happened about 4 months before the zombie apocalypse.


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## Hand of Evil (Dec 2, 2010)

Klaus said:


> Maybe that kind of procedure was put in place between "wildfire" and "epidemic". Whatever "wildfire" was, it happened about 4 months before the zombie apocalypse.




Think "wildfire" is a hot spot (infected zone/outbreak) that went out of control and jumped containment.  Once, it jumped "epidemic" was the next step, local then global, then it becomes a "pandemic".


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## Joker (Dec 2, 2010)

Hand of Evil said:


> Think "wildfire" is a hot spot (infected zone/outbreak) that went out of control and jumped containment.  Once, it jumped "epidemic" was the next step, local then global, then it becomes a "pandemic".




I'm pretty sure Madagascar closed down everything, so they're safe.


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## Klaus (Dec 2, 2010)

Joker said:


> I'm pretty sure Madagascar closed down everything, so they're safe.



Aruba, baby.

Failing that, Tristan da Cunha.


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## Janx (Dec 2, 2010)

Hand of Evil said:


> Think "wildfire" is a hot spot (infected zone/outbreak) that went out of control and jumped containment.  Once, it jumped "epidemic" was the next step, local then global, then it becomes a "pandemic".




As I recall, the term "Wildfire" from Andromeda Strain referred to a highly infectious and dangerous viral outbreak.

Epidemic and Pandemic is what the CDC calls the swine flu virus that gives you a normal flue and has the usual contagion rates and outcomes.


Wildfire is what you call a virus that rapidly spreads and kills 99% of the population and is running loose in the public, like a wildfire.


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## Sir Brennen (Dec 2, 2010)

Hand of Evil said:


> It is not a bad idea to go to the CDC, I just think the party does not plan their actions that well, no real thought.  Yes, going to the CDC is a smart move but not thinking about distance, time of day and having a safe house to fall back to.  I know, these people are not gamers but knowing that you will be going through a dead zone with a lot of road blockage, you should have found a safe place to hold up and run back to, then gone on to the CDC.



To be fair, they might have planned it so they had plenty of time to get to the CDC during daylight hours and been able to retreat to a safe spot should it turn into a dead end, if the RV hadn't broken down on the way there, throwing the timetable off.

In a bit of TWD news, the writing staff of season one has been fired. Though not confirmed yet, sounds like they may be going with freelancers for the second season. Some commentary here: Why dumping Walking Dead's writing staff might be a GOOD thing


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## Felon (Dec 2, 2010)

I am puzzled by the notion that going to the CDC would be considered a stupid idea. 

What I do find less than credible is the casual abandon with which these guys will splatter infected blood and guts all over the place without trying to keep it off them. They don't protect their hands or mouths when they're hacking and chopping up bodies. They don't even turn their heads away or pucker their lips reflexively. I started to take note of this back in the second episode, when everyone needlessly huddled around close and watched while the bodies were chopped up with an axe to make the zombie suits.


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## FoxWander (Dec 2, 2010)

Yeah, they are kind of unconcerned about infection or catching "the zombie bug" (or whatever it is they think makes dead people start walking again), but it's odd that you mention that particular scene because that was the only time when they _did_ take precautions.  They all put on gloves and those smock-things.  Rick even says to make sure they don't get any on their skin or in their eyes.  And then after that they completely forget about such things. 


Oh, and one more things about their trip to the CDC and the lack of planning involved.  Putting aside their stupidity just with bringing the whole clan along on this scenic trip into zombie central- why did everyone have to get out of the vehicles to go check the doors when they got there?!?  Couldn't just a couple of them gone out to do that while everyone else stayed in the relative safety of an enclosed vehicle.  You know, maybe with the engine running so the few that got out could just run back, jump in, and they all take off if things start to go bad.

And did they even consider that they were taking a bunch of noncombatants into a veritable mine-field of tripping hazards? Dramatic-tension laws dictate that if the group has to run then the most vulnerable people WILL TRIP on something.  And at the worst possible time.  Yet there they are- with kids and unarmed meat snacks- surrounded by unpredictable terrain.  Not to mention the inevitable assumed-dead-body-that-suddenly-grabs-your-ankle trick!  It's as if they not only have no awareness of zombie movies, but they've never seen a horror movie ever!  Cause the dead body that grabs you suddenly is the oldest trick in the book.


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## Felon (Dec 2, 2010)

FoxWander said:


> Yeah, they are kind of unconcerned about infection or catching "the zombie bug" (or whatever it is they think makes dead people start walking again), but it's odd that you mention that particular scene because that was the only time when they _did_ take precautions.  They all put on gloves and those smock-things.  Rick even says to make sure they don't get any on their skin or in their eyes.



Yeah, but they didn't protect their faces, and they didn't need protection at all if the ones not doing the chopping just moved away. Instead, they basically stood virtually on top of the mess. 



> Oh, and one more things about their trip to the CDC and the lack of planning involved.  Putting aside their stupidity just with bringing the whole clan along on this scenic trip into zombie central- why did everyone have to get out of the vehicles to go check the doors when they got there?!?  Couldn't just a couple of them gone out to do that while everyone else stayed in the relative safety of an enclosed vehicle.  You know, maybe with the engine running so the few that got out could just run back, jump in, and they all take off if things start to go bad.



The impression I got was that they really wasn't any turning back. They'd banked everything on the CDC's viability, and used up enough gas that they weren't getting out of the city before dark. Also, I also get the impression that walker hordes aren't an ever-present threat as they are in the zombie flicks. In an open parking lot, it's not going to be like "Poof! Horde!"


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## Dannyalcatraz (Dec 2, 2010)

Ah, but there is a subtle difference that sets these zombies apart from all others, and its a very dangerous difference: they go quiescent.

In all other zombie fiction I can think of except the movie _Shock Waves_, zombies are more or less in constant motion.  This makes them visible.

In contrast, _these_ zombies will occasionally "rest", which means you can walk right by one and not notice until it's chasing you down- we've seen this a few times, especially in the streets, as dormant ones clamber out of busses and cars to attack the living.

So while there doesn't seem to be the risk of "Poof, Horde!" (a phrase that requires careful punctuation), there is always the risk of one or more undetected ones popping up wherever he dead may be found.

In a sense, it's like submarines hunting a convoy.  They don't need a Sherriff, they need a Navy officer!


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## Remus Lupin (Dec 2, 2010)

I don't know why, but the expression "Poof! Horde!" keeps making me chuckle.


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## Klaus (Dec 2, 2010)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Ah, but there is a subtle difference that sets these zombies apart from all others, and its a very dangerous difference: they go quiescent.
> 
> In all other zombie fiction I can think of except the movie _Shock Waves_, zombies are more or less in constant motion.  This makes them visible.
> 
> ...



In the comic 



Spoiler



there are two types of zombies. The "walkers" will constantly walk about towards the last thing that caught its attention. If it hears a gunshot to the north, it will walk to the north until something else catches its attention. Then there are the "lurkers", which lay mostly dormant until a human gets close. After the human moves a few paces back, the lurker will return to dormancy


 .


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## Hand of Evil (Dec 6, 2010)

Now that was a stupid ending - 



Spoiler



get into the CDC only to have it blow up.  It was bad enough they made the place Umbrella, with voice computer but to blow it up after they got there; dumb.


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## Crothian (Dec 6, 2010)

They had to leave the group alone and not safe.  I think it would have b een better for the story since the next part is a year away to let them have a small victory and stay in the CDC for a little while, like till season two episode one.


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## Remus Lupin (Dec 6, 2010)

Gotta wonder what the scientist guy whispered in his ear near the end there. A lead on a place to go?

I though the "oh God we're all gonna die" part of their dillemma was well acted and convincing, though the situation was contrived. Why let them in in the first place, if only to die with you less than a day later? And would the CDC really only have backup power for a month if they were going to run that much power-draining high tech gear? A sensible backup system should have lasted at least a year at full capacity, not a month with one guy. It's sure as hell a good thing he told the kids not to fire up the wii console!

But again, the show's about the characters, and the characters were convincing, from Shane's drunken meltdown to Jaqui's decision to stay and be incinerated. The show's only worth watching if the Zombie mayhem is the circumstance under which genuine character development takes place, and on this score it was done well. I don't see things ending well for Shane though. But I suppose as things stand right now, it's not ending well for any of them.


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## Joker (Dec 6, 2010)

Remus Lupin said:


> Gotta wonder what the scientist guy whispered in his ear near the end there. A lead on a place to go?




Maybe that the pathogen is airborne.  Or that despite that these people are your friends, if zombies are chasing you, trip one of them.

I suppose we won't find out for a long time.


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## LightPhoenix (Dec 6, 2010)

Utterly pointless.  If they didn't know what synapses were, what possible usable information did they really think they were going to get?   Blah.

Didn't really care if Building Code Lady stayed; I still don't even know her name.  For a second, I actually thought the show might kill Andrea and Dale, so I guess that was well-played.

I hope Key Dropper doesn't take the place of Tyrese in the show.  For one thing, I don't know his name either.

For the record, what Jenner most likely told Rick (fairly major spoiler): 



Spoiler



Everyone is infected with the zombie virus, even those who aren't bitten.  Anyone who dies, almost no matter how, becomes a zombie.  Zombie bites only cause the fever, which then kills you.


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## Ahnehnois (Dec 7, 2010)

The "science" part of it was nonsense, but that's pretty much par for the course. They didn't seem to define "syanpse" accurately, and the imaging is not reflective of any real technology I'm aware of.

That aside, it was a dramatic conclusion and gives the show a good kickoff point for whenever it starts up again.


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## dravot (Dec 7, 2010)

Remus Lupin said:


> I though the "oh God we're all gonna die" part of their dillemma was well acted and convincing, though the situation was contrived. Why let them in in the first place, if only to die with you less than a day later? And would the CDC really only have backup power for a month if they were going to run that much power-draining high tech gear? A sensible backup system should have lasted at least a year at full capacity, not a month with one guy. It's sure as hell a good thing he told the kids not to fire up the wii console!




The doctor was whacked, in his own way.  He had accepted death, and preferred going out in the explosion to anything on the outside.  He assumed that Rick and company would agree.

From what the doctor said, the CDC was set to protect itself against an act of terrorism - I doubt that they would have expected the place to be self-sustaining for more than a day or two.


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## Krug (Dec 7, 2010)

Ending just felt rather meh. OK let them in then shove them out again. Scientist guy turning crazy? Uhhuh and the explosion seemed rather convenient... again. I'm guessing he told Rick 



Spoiler



his wife's pregnant.


 My main gripe that it was this episode was almost done to undo the last ep, so most of it was a waste of time.


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## Crothian (Dec 7, 2010)

How is it a waste of time and whose time?  They once again learn that others have survived.  They learn the situation is global.  They got a good shower and some sleep and a good meal.  And in the end it just reinforces that they are all screwed.


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## Janx (Dec 7, 2010)

what did we learn from the episode:

how rick was left alone (and uneaten thanks to SHane) in the hospital

rick now has a secret he learned from the Doctor.

we learned the basic nature of the virus, and that it is world-wide


Yes, the group is still on the run.  I suppose our other choice was "they live out their days in the CDC" which wouldn't have been very exciting barring a breach or running out of supplies.

I find it ridiculous that all the other doctors killed themselves rather than survive.  Pansies.

Here's whats unknown:
how long does the zombie effect last, before decay or environmental damage render it inert?

Can a set of combat procedures be developed that minimizes risk to clear out an area, defend it, grow or gather food?

Consider up north, where once the temperate reaches freezing, these zombies should stop being able to move, unless the virus generates a LOT of heat.

Consider the damage hurricanes could do to zombies, who aren't smart enough to seek shelter.

Consider farm crops still growing out there (corn fields?) that could be harvested for food.

Consider taking over a remote small town or gas station and reinforcing it with supplies from Home Depot.  Getting into a cinder block building and properly sealing the exits (load in/out through the roof).

It is possible these folks could hold out for a year, and the zombie population could die out due to weather and wear and tear on the bodies.

In facing an extinction event, the goal of the species is to avoid that extinction, not welcome it.

Consider picking up ALL the ammunition and weapons they pass by dead soldiers.  Its not like good hardware was hard to find outside the hospital or CDC.

There's still hope left.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Dec 7, 2010)

Somebody needs to learn how to operate military stuff- half-tracks, tanks...APCs, for goodness sakes!

I suspect that the psychological horror of what was happening prevented soldiers from doing what all the survivors now know must be done: if you meet a zombie in the road, KILL IT.

There is no reason beyond psychology (see Tienamen Square) why those big tanks shouldn't have simply crushed legions of the walkers.


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## Sabathius42 (Dec 8, 2010)

I am always amazed (even though it happens so often) when someone ponies up money to make a movie based on a book or comic which is awesome...and then changes it so much from the source material that it barely represents the original story and is no longer awesome.

I'm looking at you Walking Dead and League of Extraordinary Gentlemen above others.

DS


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## Fast Learner (Dec 8, 2010)

Janx said:


> Consider taking over a remote small town or gas station and reinforcing it with supplies from Home Depot.  Getting into a cinder block building and properly sealing the exits (load in/out through the roof).




Tons of small towns across the country have National Guard armories that are easily defended. They're also well-supplied with medicines, etc. If the bulk of mankind is ever destroyed and you're a survivor, keep it in mind.




Dannyalcatraz said:


> I suspect that the psychological horror of what was happening prevented soldiers from doing what all the survivors now know must be done: if you meet a zombie in the road, KILL IT.



Especially since, as we learned, you're not killing anyone at all, they're definitely corpses.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Dec 8, 2010)

> rick now has a secret he learned from the Doctor.




Given the blood test that was the price of admissions, I'm guessing someone's preggers!


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## RigaMortus2 (Dec 8, 2010)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Given the blood test that was the price of admissions, I'm guessing someone's preggers!




Nice, I didn't make that connection.

And since Rick's wife was with his "best friend" not too long ago, wonder who it could be?


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## Hand of Evil (Dec 8, 2010)

Far as I can tell, Rick has only been up and about for a week.  It has been about two that he was left for dead.  

The way the army was killing people in the hospital, would not trust them to be helpful.  

Lay out tires, zombies just can't handle the tire drill, just have some spikes for them to fall on.  Pits, like they can't find a bob cat tractor.  But, I would have a personel carrier by now, also some portable generators, even some solar panels! 

As I said, war hammer and shield would be my weapon, ponk!  

Once I had a base of safety (see older post) I would be planning raids for supplies, four man team; a driver, a look out and two to enter and grab.  I would be looking at homes, break in, hit the kitchen for can goods and get out.  Also, be looking for food distribution centers for mother loads.

Oh, the Atlanta Aquarium...think I would check it out for some "mail" shark suits but then I know of other places in the Atanta area to find "armor".


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## Richards (Dec 8, 2010)

At the very least, I think I'd swap out some vehicles, considering one of the cars in their convoy is a completely open Jeep!  I sure wouldn't want to be in a Jeep when the zombie masses start swarming over the convoy.

Johnathan


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## Ahnehnois (Dec 8, 2010)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Given the blood test that was the price of admissions, I'm guessing someone's preggers!



This might be true, but I kind of hope not. The magic TV "blood tests" that  catch everything are kind of a myth. In fact, since the doctor couldn't identify the nature of the pathogen at all, one wonders how he would test for it at all, and, assuming he somehow found a test, why hormones involved in pregnancy would be part of it.

That aside, a quasi-illegitimate baby could really blow up this situation.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Dec 8, 2010)

> In fact, since the doctor couldn't identify the nature of the pathogen at all, one wonders how he would test for it at all...




While he may not have been able to ID whether it was viral, bacterial, parasitic or prions, he may have been able to detect it's effects: metabolic waste products, destroyed cells, toxins, enzymes, protiens, etc.


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## coyote6 (Dec 8, 2010)

Hand of Evil said:


> But, I would have a personel carrier by now, also some portable generators, even some solar panels!




The problem with snatching an APC is that they guzzle gas. Gas goes bad fairly quickly; realistically, by now, gas supplies are going to start being bad. So having an APC would just lead to more gas scrounging problems. Of course, no post apocalyptic fiction I've seen seems to take that into account, and Walking Dead probably won't, either.

Still, taking a gas guzzler that no one has experience working on mechanically is probably not a great idea. When it breaks down, how are they going to fix it? The Winnebago is bad enough, but at least Dale seems to know it inside out. I assume that's the reason they keep the other cars, too -- they know them.

Also, I wonder how useful it would be to keep to older cars? They would be more worn, but they don't have the electronics to fix a new car's computerized system if something goes wrong. Might be why they keep the jeep rather than grab a new SUV.

I assume they did crush undead with tanks -- until the military ran out of gas, and those Abrams became forts rather than vehicles. Of course, rolling over the zombies wouldn't necessarily kill 'em, unless you popped the head. Rick's first zombie -- the half-woman in the park -- is evidence of that.

I don't know if these Walking Dead freeze or otherwise behave like World War Z's zombies, either. 

What they need is close-fitting (so it isn't easy to grab) bite-proof armor. They don't need to stop shark bites, just zombie bites; extra weight would be bad, because it means you can't run away from an unexpected horde.

Of course, traditional zombies are really pretty easy to kill, until something goes wrong. And in a zombie tale, something _always_ goes wrong.


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## Hand of Evil (Dec 8, 2010)

coyote6 said:


> The problem with snatching an APC is that they guzzle gas. Gas goes bad fairly quickly; realistically, by now, gas supplies are going to start being bad. So having an APC would just lead to more gas scrounging problems. Of course, no post apocalyptic fiction I've seen seems to take that into account, and Walking Dead probably won't, either.
> .



Today's APC can run on just about anything or a mix of.  As far as the amount of gas, that depends on IF there was a complete shut down of our infra-structure and that I do not see, there may be limited travel but there will be gas to find, just from the people who are now zombies walking.  Just have to know where to look, like construction sites, airports and city bus maintenance areas, to schools (public transportation will have been shut down).   

Yep, keep away from newer cars and keep to the older stuff.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Dec 8, 2010)

Again, they need to think like the Navy:

1) one big vehicle for the bulky stuff they can't transport any other way or to serve as living quarters.  Bus, Winnebago, camping van, mobile kitchen truck, etc., or some kind of military vehicle like a Duce, APC or what have you.  Ideally, you could get your hands on a something with a turret mounted weapon- 50 cal not required.

2) smaller vehicles- rugged & dependable- for more routine tasks and carrying the bulk of the group.

3) motorcycles...or better, good solid mountain bikes for EVERYONE.  Quiet, maneuverable, rugged, fast, and runs on people power.  Could be loaded on larger vehicles when moving around or doing recon.


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## Remus Lupin (Dec 8, 2010)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Again, they need to think like the Navy:
> 
> 1) one big vehicle for the bulky stuff they can't transport any other way or to serve as living quarters.  Bus, Winnebago, camping van, mobile kitchen truck, etc., or some kind of military vehicle like a Duce, APC or what have you.  Ideally, you could get your hands on a something with a turret mounted weapon- 50 cal not required.
> 
> ...




Sir, when the Zombie apocalypse comes, I'm moving in with you.


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## Janx (Dec 8, 2010)

coyote6 said:


> Gas goes bad fairly quickly; realistically, by now, gas supplies are going to start being bad. So having an APC would just lead to more gas scrounging problems. Of course, no post apocalyptic fiction I've seen seems to take that into account, and Walking Dead probably won't, either.




Gas goes bad quickly?  Not in my experience.

Sure, there's the John Denver story where during the 70's gas shortage, he had horded a huge quantity of gas, only to find when he finally went to use it, it had turned to turpentine.

However, in the small scale test of my garage, I fill up the 2 gallon can of gas for my mower once a year, in the middle of the summer when it runs out.  That means I use some to finish the summer, and it sits all winter and is still good in the spring, seeing how it lasts until I run out in the mid-summer again.

I've never seen a problem with this in 30 years. in 2 different climates.

That doesn't mean it won't go bad.  But gas is not milk, despite having a similar price per gallon.

---

Good call on the bicycles.  Quiet is good, assuming the zombies can't go that fast (BTW, crusing speed on a mountain bike is about 15MPH, courtesy of the 30 miles per day I put on mine riding to work and back one summer in college).

Military vehicles (like the downtown tank) are likely to be out of gas.  Odds are good they were left running when they were overrun (and how do you get infected in a tank. Close the hatch when they get close and run them down or drive away).\


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## renau1g (Dec 8, 2010)

Janx said:


> Gas goes bad quickly?  Not in my experience.
> 
> However, in the small scale test of my garage, I fill up the 2 gallon can of gas for my mower once a year, in the middle of the summer when it runs out.  That means I use some to finish the summer, and it sits all winter and is still good in the spring, seeing how it lasts until I run out in the mid-summer again.
> 
> ...




Does Gas Go Bad?

re: a tank. Perhaps the soldiers ended up out of gas, but trapped inside without MREs or water. Your choice of death via dehydration or starvation or take a chance and make a break for it...


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## Felon (Dec 8, 2010)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Somebody needs to learn how to operate military stuff- half-tracks, tanks...APCs, for goodness sakes!
> 
> I suspect that the psychological horror of what was happening prevented soldiers from doing what all the survivors now know must be done: if you meet a zombie in the road, KILL IT.
> 
> There is no reason beyond psychology (see Tienamen Square) why those big tanks shouldn't have simply crushed legions of the walkers.



Yep, rotted flesh against steel or concrete isn't much of a contest. The walkers shouldn't really have posed that much of a threat once you got all of the healthy soldiers and officials on one side of a nice, solid barrier. I'm sure our military has plans in place against a mass uprising and plagues and likely both at the same time, and in many respects living, intelligent, *armed* people are actually far more dangerous opponents than zombies. To say there's no power and no communication globally is kind of far-fetched. Zombies can't have knocked out every antenna or satelittle tower.


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## Hand of Evil (Dec 8, 2010)

kind of surprised we did not see napalm damage in the city, zombies packed in the streets; would take out a lot of walkers.    Maybe New York and LA.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Dec 9, 2010)

Given the number of milspec arms captured in police raids annually, I'm surprised you don't see more utter destruction in the cities, period.


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## Klaus (Dec 9, 2010)

Felon said:


> Yep, rotted flesh against steel or concrete isn't much of a contest. The walkers shouldn't really have posed that much of a threat once you got all of the healthy soldiers and officials on one side of a nice, solid barrier. I'm sure our military has plans in place against a mass uprising and plagues and likely both at the same time, and in many respects living, intelligent, *armed* people are actually far more dangerous opponents than zombies. To say there's no power and no communication globally is kind of far-fetched. Zombies can't have knocked out every antenna or satelittle tower.



I'm convinced that, in zombie stories, zombies have an "entropy aura" that creates a "Murphy's Law field". Because anything that can go wrong in a zombie story *will* go wrong.


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## Remus Lupin (Dec 9, 2010)

"You must spread some experience around before giving to Klaus again." Dang.


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## Felon (Dec 9, 2010)

Hand of Evil said:


> kind of surprised we did not see napalm damage in the city, zombies packed in the streets; would take out a lot of walkers.    Maybe New York and LA.



See, that's sort of my guess about what scientist-guy whispered into sheriff-guy's ear. "More HIT's are coming. Then nukes. It's all automatic. Nothing anybody can do to stop it. Doomed, I say. DOOOOOMED. Okay, now get out."

You know, it really does not speak well to the show that I'm not invested enough in any character to learn their name. Except for Merle.


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## NewJeffCT (Dec 9, 2010)

Felon said:


> Yep, rotted flesh against steel or concrete isn't much of a contest. The walkers shouldn't really have posed that much of a threat once you got all of the healthy soldiers and officials on one side of a nice, solid barrier. I'm sure our military has plans in place against a mass uprising and plagues and likely both at the same time, and in many respects living, intelligent, *armed* people are actually far more dangerous opponents than zombies. To say there's no power and no communication globally is kind of far-fetched. Zombies can't have knocked out every antenna or satelittle tower.




I was thinking that as well - why not just run a line of tanks over the zombies?  

This has a decent explanation of how things can go wrong with well equipped soldiers against zombies:  *The Battle of Yonkers *from *World War Z*:

Battle of Yonkers - Zombie Wiki - Zombies, Undead, Survival Guide


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## NewJeffCT (Dec 9, 2010)

LightPhoenix said:


> I hope Key Dropper doesn't take the place of Tyrese in the show.  For one thing, I don't know his name either.




I think I read an interview with somebody involved with the show, and T-Dogg (the key dropper) is NOT going to be Tyrese.

I wonder who will get cast as Michonne?  I think Gina Torres might do well in the role - she can play a bad-ass tough chick.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Dec 9, 2010)

I swear, its amazing how incompetent the military in zombie horror fiction must be.  If ever there were an opponent you'd want to use special weapons & tactics for (not S.W.A.T. in the police sense), it's zombie hordes.

Screw most small arms & artillery; thet the sharpshooters do their work picking off zombies one at a time from 1000 yards with all the ammo they want and good reloading teams: they won't have to move unless in danger of being overrun, because zombies don't shoot (except for a very rare few).

Otherwise, use water cannon to herd them or draw them into killzones with bait (trained volunteers), then light them up with:


Flamethrowers
Napalm
Fuel air explosions
Acid sprays (to be developed)
Daisy cutters & bouncing bettys

And the list goes on...shaped charges with copper plates, for instance, can cut a huge swathe through massed zombmanity, as would good old fashioned chain/canister/grapeshot  If nothing else, their mobility would be impaired as they get cut in half...and slow zombies are easier to kill.

Even at least one of the new non-lethal weapons systems out there would be useful: the goo guns that spray adhesive foam.

Controlled demolitions of abandoned buildings could clear blocks at a time, crushing them under tons of debris.

(I do admit aerosolization could be a risk, but thats what evacuations are for.)


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## Felon (Dec 9, 2010)

NewJeffCT said:


> I was thinking that as well - why not just run a line of tanks over the zombies?
> 
> This has a decent explanation of how things can go wrong with well equipped soldiers against zombies:  *The Battle of Yonkers *from *World War Z*:
> 
> Battle of Yonkers - Zombie Wiki - Zombies, Undead, Survival Guide



Yeah, I've read that before (nice bit of sophistry), and listened in on such discussions (all perks of living a full-on nerd life). I'm no military man, but there are a few things that are just basic facts. I do know that once you start getting into the assault rifle category of firepower, bullets go from just poking holes that induce bleeding, organ falure, and nerve trauma--i.e. the stuff that doesn't take out zombies--to becoming essentially giant ice-cream scoops that rip the body apart in sizable chunks. Popping the apricot becomes more akin to an ideal than an absolute necessity.

Anyway, if you're facing millions of zombies, it's safe to say the military is likely to abandon digging in with infantry in preference of airstrikes. And regardless of whatever ambitious planning might be in place, getting some jets to drop air-fuel bombs on home soild could actually be executed very quickly as a fallback plan. And such contingencies are likely in place right now to respond to a catastrophic outbreak in a matter of minutes. We're not talking about dicey ways of destroying a person, like boiling their blood. We're talking about an attack that vaporizes.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Dec 10, 2010)

I'm reminded of Rod Steiger as the General, pointing wordlessly at Glen Close as the First Lady in _Mars Attacks_ when she agrees with him about bombing the bejesus out of the Martians.

That's my desired response from the military.


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## Klaus (Dec 10, 2010)

I think this thread begs for this article:

7 Scientific Reasons a Zombie Outbreak Would Fail (Quickly) | Cracked.com


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## Dannyalcatraz (Dec 10, 2010)

Thanks for the link!

1) nice article with few holes in the reasoning.  The one flaw that sprung immediately to mind was the thing about predation: the animating infectious agent may also make the zombie flesh unpalatable to all but carrion eaters.  Still, that means a FEAST for the California Condor and others!

2) Favorite quote:



> Their main form of reproduction is also their only source of food and their top predator. If they want to eat or reproduce, they have to go toe to toe with their number one predator every single time. That's like having to fight a lion every time you to want to have sex or make a sandwich.




3) I want the phone number for the busty brunette "Irrelephant" t-shirt model.


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## Hand of Evil (Dec 10, 2010)

Klaus said:


> I'm convinced that, in zombie stories, zombies have an "entropy aura" that creates a "Murphy's Law field". Because anything that can go wrong in a zombie story *will* go wrong.




The first Chill game by Pace Setter called this power HAYWIRE, flash lights would fail, cars stall, guns jam, even doors to be locked/unlocked.  Man, I got to dig out my copy!


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## Hand of Evil (Dec 10, 2010)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> I swear, its amazing how incompetent the military in zombie horror fiction must be.  If ever there were an opponent you'd want to use special weapons & tactics for (not S.W.A.T. in the police sense), it's zombie hordes.




Agree, Zombies are Lemmings...they will chase people off a cliff!


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## NewJeffCT (Dec 10, 2010)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Thanks for the link!
> 
> 1) nice article with few holes in the reasoning.  The one flaw that sprung immediately to mind was the thing about predation: the animating infectious agent may also make the zombie flesh unpalatable to all but carrion eaters.  Still, that means a FEAST for the California Condor and others!




I think you are right on that - zombies don't seem to attract the typical carnivores from what I understand - bears, coyotes, wolves, etc.

Heck, if that were true, there would be a trail of animals following every zombie horde scavenging the bits & pieces that fall of them as they march.


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## Mallus (Dec 10, 2010)

"The devil you say, Chesterton. You mean you've discovered some rank _implausibilities_ in a parlor-kinetoscope serial about a _zombie apocalypse?_"

Ahem... I've got one episode to go and I'm pretty much loving it. 

re: military vs. zombie apocalypse. While it's --incredibly nerdy-- fun to talk about the efficacy of flamethrowers and fuel-air bombs versus the soft rotting flesh of the nearly mindless, shambling dead, focusing on the hardware kinda misses the point. The show is set nearly 200 days into the public _declaration_ of the emergency (nice Andromeda strain shout-out). It's not hard to imagine even military discipline, and the broader chains of command and supply, breaking down in that period, as the dead are coming back to life and, presumably, tens of millions of your fellow citizens, and non-military relatives, are dying. Then coming back life. The military, even with their all their toys, loses because the people in the military, being people and all, _break_. 

I see it going down like this. First, the military _doesn't_ hunker down. They try to maintain order and help folks. Which exposes them to danger, losses. This also points one of the major themes in the genre: do the same morals/ethics/'right actions'/advantageous survival behaviors from the pre-apocalypse still apply?

At some point the military stops trying to aid the civilian population, but by this time the external supports systems have all broken down. Then morale collapses... etc.  I'm not convinced positing the breakdown of the military in light of the breakdown of, well, civilization, is really portraying them to be incompetent. I'm sure they had plenty of terrifically gory victories over the dead in the initial part of the conflict.

Also, I doubt our country's level of preparedness for a serious flu pandemic... never mind a full-scale ZA. 

The trouble with nerd, particularly gamer-nerd criticism, is it treats fiction like it's a game. It's all about who has the guns, napalm, and/or +3 swords of wounding. Even characters are just playing pieces to be deployed, logically, on the board. Gamer crit is based around the characters _not_ being people, not having any emotional attachments or reactions. or worse, fallibility, as well as around decisions being made and organizations acting with perfect intelligence and efficiency, ie completely unlike the way decision get made and organizations act in the real world. 

Instead, it's all about who uses the big guns with the --armor piercing/Teflon-coated/discarding-sabot/depleted uranium- ammo in the smartest way. Just like _they_ would. You know, if it were happening to them.

/soapbox


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## NewJeffCT (Dec 10, 2010)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> I swear, its amazing how incompetent the military in zombie horror fiction must be.  If ever there were an opponent you'd want to use special weapons & tactics for (not S.W.A.T. in the police sense), it's zombie hordes.




I think the default assumption is that because the zombies are so new & so different, the military has trouble devising new/different tactics in dealing with them.   

Plus, in the early days before a lot is known, they might be worried that it can also be spread as an airborne pathogen - hence the soldiers in World War Z being dressed in full chemical warfare gear despite it being a hot summer day.  

The soldiers were told to shoot the zombies in the head after being trained from Basic on up to shoot for the body, as it is a far bigger target.  

Again, not excusing the military incompetence in every zombie story ever made, as I agree that it should be a lot easier than the books make it seem.  Just trying to come up with some reasoning behind it.  And, in World War Z...spoilers -  



Spoiler



once the military adjusts their tactics, they move rather swiftly across the country clearing it of zombies.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Dec 10, 2010)

Mallus said:


> re: military vs. zombie apocalypse. While it's --incredibly nerdy-- fun to talk about the efficacy of flamethrowers and fuel-air bombs versus the soft rotting flesh of the nearly mindless, shambling dead, focusing on the hardware kinda misses the point. The show is set nearly 200 days into the public _declaration_ of the emergency (nice Andromeda strain shout-out). It's not hard to imagine even military discipline, and the broader chains of command and supply, breaking down in that period, as the dead are coming back to life and, presumably, tens of millions of your fellow citizens, and non-military relatives, are dying. Then coming back life. The military, even with their all their toys, loses because the people in the military, being people and all, _break_.




That is the kind of point I was talking about re: psychology, but the fact of the matter is, I'd be damn surprised if anything short of a bird-flu fast pandemic would disrupt a 1st world nation's military hierarchy and civil government in under a year...and zombie syndrome simply doesn't spread that fast.  It *can't* if its sole means of transmission is via direct injury (bites, scratches, etc.).

I'll say this, though- the infrastructure to fail first in any zombpocalypse will be the medical services.  They're basically unarmed, rarely are trained combatants, are trained to go towards the injured (which zombies resemble), and despite precautions will be exposed to blood, bones, and aerosolized necrotic tissue...even in the REAL world.


> I see it going down like this. First, the military _doesn't_ hunker down. They try to maintain order and help folks. Which exposes them to danger, losses. This also points one of the major themes in the genre: do the same morals/ethics/'right actions'/advantageous survival behaviors from the pre-apocalypse still apply?
> 
> At some point the military stops trying to aid the civilian population, but by this time the external supports systems have all broken down. Then morale collapses... etc.  I'm not convinced positing the breakdown of the military in light of the breakdown of, well, civilization, is really portraying them to be incompetent. I'm sure they had plenty of terrifically gory victories over the dead in the initial part of the conflict.




Zombies, if nothing else, are flammable...and because all of their liquid intake is from eating (we never see them drinking), their flesh is dehydrated.  Therefore, they are more flammable than we are.  Incendiaries of all kind are going to be ordered up, and not just by the military.  I'm sure that molotov cocktails and aerosol flamethrowers are pretty easy to make, and not just by gamer nerds- trust me, frat boys know them too.

And, FWIW, believe me when I tell you there are a decent number of gamers & sci-fi/fantasy/horror fans in the military...someone would figure it out and pass it up the chain of command, probably right after a successful engagement.



> Also, I doubt our country's level of preparedness for a serious flu pandemic... never mind a full-scale ZA.




Bird flu spreads orders of magnitude faster than ZA.  ZA would spread pretty slowly, especially once it was identified.



> The trouble with nerd, particularly gamer-nerd criticism, is it treats fiction like it's a game. It's all about who has the guns, napalm, and/or +3 swords of wounding. Even characters are just playing pieces to be deployed, logically, on the board. Gamer crit is based around the characters _not_ being people, not having any emotional attachments or reactions. or worse, fallibility, as well as around decisions being made and organizations acting with perfect intelligence and efficiency, ie completely unlike the way decision get made and organizations act in the real world.
> 
> Instead, it's all about who uses the big guns with the --armor piercing/Teflon-coated/discarding-sabot/depleted uranium- ammo in the smartest way. Just like _they_ would. You know, if it were happening to them.






NewJeffCT said:


> I think the default assumption is that because the zombies are so new & so different, the military has trouble devising new/different tactics in dealing with them.
> 
> Plus, in the early days before a lot is known, they might be worried that it can also be spread as an airborne pathogen - hence the soldiers in World War Z being dressed in full chemical warfare gear despite it being a hot summer day.
> <snip good stuff>




The thing is, the military wouldn't have to develop new stuff, 99% of what they'd need is already in their stockpile and there are soldiers trained to use them.

And believe me, the military is pretty good about assessing the effectiveness of weapons vs target types.  They'd figure out the machine guns and exotic rounds wouldn't be the best pretty quickly and switch to tactics that are either very accurate (snipers) or weapons that obliterate huge areas with the right kind of stuff (incendiaries, controlled demolitions).

The only holdup is the psychology of using those weapons in cities.


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## Remus Lupin (Dec 10, 2010)

It is a basic premise of all Zombie Horror that people are horrible, the government is corrupt, and the military is incompetent. Were these things not true, a zombie outbreak would fail quickly. Also, technology always fails.


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## NewJeffCT (Dec 10, 2010)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> The thing is, the military wouldn't have to develop new stuff, 99% of what they'd need is already in their stockpile and there are soldiers trained to use them.
> 
> And believe me, the military is pretty good about assessing the effectiveness of weapons vs target types.  They'd figure out the machine guns and exotic rounds wouldn't be the best pretty quickly and switch to tactics that are either very accurate (snipers) or weapons that obliterate huge areas with the right kind of stuff (incendiaries, controlled demolitions).
> 
> The only holdup is the psychology of using those weapons in cities.




I realize the military would not need to develop new tactics, and I agree that it seems unlikely they would lose.  However, the premise of World War Z is that the Battle of Yonkers was a colossal strategic miscalculation and thousands of soldiers were killed while tens of millions of TV viewers watched on the 24/7 cable news networks.  From the images on TV, the zombies seemed endless and unstoppable and the loss in battle set off a worldwide panic that led to the breakdown of society...


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## Crothian (Dec 10, 2010)

Remus Lupin said:


> It is a basic premise of all Zombie Horror that people are horrible, the government is corrupt, and the military is incompetent. Were these things not true, a zombie outbreak would fail quickly. Also, technology always fails.




Not always, I think zombie horror just ignores lots of things and places this group of people in this tough situation with little thought to how the government or military would react.  It's basic horror 101; take a group of people and isolate them and then put them in mortal danger and let the fun begin.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Dec 10, 2010)

NewJeffCT said:


> I realize the military would not need to develop new tactics, and I agree that it seems unlikely they would lose.  However, the premise of World War Z is that the Battle of Yonkers was a colossal strategic miscalculation and thousands of soldiers were killed while tens of millions of TV viewers watched on the 24/7 cable news networks.  From the images on TV, the zombies seemed endless and unstoppable and the loss in battle set off a worldwide panic that led to the breakdown of society...




When has any war involving a world power's defeat ever been decided by one battle?

I know that I watched the Gulf War when my Dad was deployed.

I wasn't worried- concerned, yes-  but not worried.  Had those initial engagements been turned around as Iraqi victories, the cry would not have been "Oh, no!" but "Oh yeah?" as things got ramped up.

And if ZA actually did get out of hand, and cities or even the nation itself were severely compromised, you KNOW that the military's last act would be to order those soldiers in safely isolated locations to let the munitions (including nukes) fly.

And that's a LOT of cities & zombies gone: between the air forces and navies of the USA & Russia alone you're talking tens if not hundreds of thousands of soldiers, ICBMs, TacNukes and so forth.  That's because the vectoring of ZA would largely prevent it from reaching subs, aircraft carriers and missile silos.


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## coyote6 (Dec 11, 2010)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Bird flu spreads orders of magnitude faster than ZA.  ZA would spread pretty slowly, especially once it was identified.




That assumes the zombie-causing agency is only passed by contact with the zombies. If _anybody_ that dies for any reason turns into a zombie, and zombie bites just kill you & zombify you faster, then the apocalypse gets a lot more apocalyptic. How many people die every day? They're all zombies. And they're probably zombies before the people at the morgues, mortuaries, cemeteries, crime labs, etc. are aware that they should be ready to re-kill corpses. 

I'm pretty sure at least some zombie stories have something like that as a basis for the zombification.

Then there's zombies a la King's _Cellular_ or the final episodes of _Dollhouse_ (neither of which actually zombies, but serve much the same function), where people are "converted" simultaneously, and over broad swathes of territory, if not world-wide.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Dec 11, 2010)

> That assumes the zombie-causing agency is only passed by contact with the zombies.




I personally haven't seen any zombie fiction in which the condition is spread without something like a disease-type vector or creation by human action- spells, super-science, etc.

The closest thing to what you describe I know of is the undead in Legend of the Seeker, but they're not really zombies.


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## Klaus (Dec 11, 2010)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> I personally haven't seen any zombie fiction in which the condition is spread without something like a disease-type vector or creation by human action- spells, super-science, etc.
> 
> The closest thing to what you describe I know of is the undead in Legend of the Seeker, but they're not really zombies.



[sblock]
In the Walking Dead comic, anyone that dies comes back, regardless of bites. 
[/sblock]


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## Viking Bastard (Dec 11, 2010)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> I personally haven't seen any zombie fiction in which the condition is spread without something like a disease-type vector or creation by human action- spells, super-science, etc.



Night of the Living Dead? Dawn of the Dead? Day of the Dead? Land of the Dead?

It's never clear what activates the Romero zombies, but everyone who dies returns as a zombie. It is not spread by a bite, but zombie bites are deadly.


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## Crothian (Dec 11, 2010)

In the second residental evil movie zombies dig out of their graves so they were not biten first.


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## Janx (Dec 11, 2010)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> When has any war involving a world power's defeat ever been decided by one battle?
> 
> I know that I watched the Gulf War when my Dad was deployed.
> 
> ...





Why would you send a platoon into the city to face the zombies, when instead, you could send in a chopper?  Zombies don't shoot missiles (or anything else for that matter).

I agree that the military would probably attack from a distance. and thus be relatively secure.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Dec 11, 2010)

Viking Bastard said:


> Night of the Living Dead? Dawn of the Dead? Day of the Dead? Land of the Dead?
> 
> It's never clear what activates the Romero zombies, but everyone who dies returns as a zombie. It is not spread by a bite, but zombie bites are deadly.




Go watch those again. Even in those films, most who die do not come back unless injured by zombies.  The "transmission by injury" trope _started_ with Romero.

I will concede, though, that ZA's start is mysterious, including the animation of some long dead.  But again, we don't know if they were infected before burial...incubation times seem to vary, after all.  That they rise after being long buried proves nothing: just being buried 6' down means you're under tons of earth in a coffin, with no leverage.  It would take ages to dig yourself out.  You'd die long before surfacing...conveniently, having time and no worries about death are two quintessential zombie traits.


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## Viking Bastard (Dec 11, 2010)

Well, you go watch those again. I was just introducing them to my GF. It was a point in Day of the Dead!

Didn't the spread by infection start with Russo's sequel novel?


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## renau1g (Dec 11, 2010)

I know there's been a lot of talk about the inefficient/inept military in zombie fiction. I just (well in Oct) finished reading Tooth and Nail. A zombie book about a group of soldiers stuck in NYC during zombie times. Great read, soldiers are really efficient, only problems they have are the psychological effects of shooting American citizens (which is a nice realism element). I really recommend this book. 

One of the problems with the military in an event like this is A) people at the top will likely take a bit longer to realize/admit that the dead are walking, and b) I'd imagine many soldiers go AWOL to get to their wife/husband and kids. It would be mighty difficult for me to stay on my base if I knew that my family might be torn apart by a bloodthirsty zombie. 


[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Tooth-Nail-Craig-Dilouie/dp/1930486987/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1288749829&sr=8-1]Amazon.com: Tooth And Nail (9781930486980): Craig Dilouie: Books[/ame]


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## Dannyalcatraz (Dec 11, 2010)

Viking Bastard said:


> Well, you go watch those again. I was just introducing them to my GF. It was a point in Day of the Dead!




Are we talking the 1985 original in which they have the soldiers in the underground bunker and the scientist working with "Bub" the trained, gun-shooting zombie he's feeding with dead soldiers?

Only those dead injured by zombies come back.  Otherwise, you wouldn't have the base leader bringing fallen soldiers back into the compound...thus, unintentionally providing "Dr. Nutjob" with chow for his zombie training program.

Furthermore, towards the end of the movie, Johnson, who is accidentally shot and killed by Miller, who is being attacked by a zombie, does not reanimate...and Miller in turn begs to be killed so he does not reanimate.

http://m.imdb.com/title/tt0088993/synopsis

http://m.imdb.com/title/tt0088993/synopsis


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