# Author (and artist) of The Book of Erotic Fantasy



## GKestrel (Apr 30, 2003)

The topic of the moment seems to be The Book of Erotic Fantasy.  Many posts have speculated about the book and its contents.

I wish to clarify the authorship.

I am one of the book's two authors. The other does not wish to reveal his identity at this time.  It is not Anthony Valterra, nor is it my husband, Andy Collins.

I've spoken with Anthony about the prospect of sharing a few excerpts from the text with the public in the near future.

The work is, indeed, focused on sex. It has an erotic slant. The topics are treated with taste, seriousness, and humor.  It's not an in-your-face book. 

It's a game product.  One of which I'm proud to be an author. I believe it is full of good, solid rules mechanics appropriate for audiences interested in including such topics in their games.

Gwendolyn F.M. Kestrel
"Unashamed."

_Piratecat here; I changed the thread title when I merged two threads._


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## Terry Edwards (Apr 30, 2003)

Romance, seduction and sex have been shunned by the gaming community for too long.  Perhaps this is due to the uncomfortable situations that can be created from roleplaying intimate encounters, but the topic can greatly enrich the roleplaying experience.  This product is long overdue.  Let's lay down the swords and reach for some lovin'.

Terry Edwards
familiarstudios@hotmail.com
Art Portfolio
http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/news...ame=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php


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## Gothmog (Apr 30, 2003)

Good for you Gwendolyn- don't be ashamed despite what critics of your work might say.  Like any other medium or field, gaming will only grow and develop when the boundaries are tested, and your book looks like it will do just that.

That said, when I first heard this book mentioned yesterday, I thought it might be a joke.  Personally, I'm not sure how much I would use a book like the Book of Erotic Fantasy- but then again I don't know anything about it and all we have now is wild speculation.  Any insights you could provide into the BoEF would be appreciated and might help to clear up misconceptions.  For example: 

* How extensively does the book focus on bringing erotic elements into a game?

* Are there new prestiege classes, spells, and feats designed to be used?

* New monsters?  If so, I'm kind of having a hard time imagining what they would be like.

If you'll pardon the expression, I do hope that the BoEF will present its subject matter in a mature (non giggling) sort of way- more on incorporating mature elements into a game than "oh look, elf boobies!"  I think we all look forward to any info you can provide.


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## Sirius_Black (Apr 30, 2003)

Good for you Mrs. Kestrel.  It took a great deal of courage to post this message with the Puritan uprising that has already taken place.


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## Cergorach (Apr 30, 2003)

Hmm... I have some very mixed feelings about this, on one hand i am thinking about some of the adult Black Dog books (which is a good thing), on the other i'm thinking about some of the net books out there (which is a bad thing). I think no one is waiting on rules mechanics for sex, or how to roleplay sex. Now roleplaying seduction and having mechanics could be interesting though. Overall, your walking on a tightrope in a hurricane, please don't fall off ;-)


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## BlackWych (Apr 30, 2003)

Don't you think this will perpetuate the negative perspective of D&D and gaming in general?  Or is it about the money?


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## fusangite (Apr 30, 2003)

This is a very courageous post given the tone of much of the debate here on ENWorld. I commend you for identifying yourself and coming forward to engage in dialogue.

My quarrel with your book has never been based on the identity of its authors. Frankly, I don't know the personalities of the D20 world. But here is my concern:

Because of the way the OGL D20 system works, your book will be viewed as part of the canon of D&D. I feel that this will have two potentially negative effects on our game:
1. Your material could easily become a lynchpin of adolescent male gaming, giving such games a socially destructive sexual component which may lead to people abandoning the system too early or developing a wholly warped idea of what RPGs are.
2. Your material will expose D&D to public criticism that can severely damage its image. I can see many parents, previously uninterested in regulating their kids' involvement in RPGs, suddenly becoming engaged in curtailing it.

If D&D were merely a game for adults, I could see your product merely as a bad idea but, according to a recent ENWorld poll, the vast majority of people who play D&D do start before they turn 20. Given our culture's unhealthy, contradictory and strident views about child sexuality, I feel that you are really playing with fire on behalf of all of us. 

So, rather than criticise your actions elsewhere, I feel I should bring my concerns directly to your attention. 

Thank you for posting.


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## hong (Apr 30, 2003)

BlackWych said:
			
		

> *Don't you think this will perpetuate the negative perspective of D&D and gaming in general?  *




Personally, I couldn't give two hoots about the reputation of D&D and gaming in general.


Hong "having enough problems with his own reputation" Ooi


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## KDLadage (Apr 30, 2003)

*As I stated...*

...in this thread, I hope to see something handled with taste and class. The press release gave me a few doubts, but I understand that those are supposed to garner some reaction, so I just trudged on.

I would like to ask a couple of questions if you do not mind:
 Are you including a full, detailed discussion of the CHARISMA attribute? So many people, I feel, misunderstand and flat out mis-use this attribute that it is not even funny. I am hoping you are.
 Have you contacted Christine Morgan? She can be found online here and is the author of *GURPS SEX*, perhaps one of the best supplements to *GURPS* ever written (imnsho). She handled the topics of sex, courtship, seduction and so forth with maturity, class and an eye for detail. Depending upon the level of completion of this book right now, I would strongly recommend getting ahold of her and see if she can add anything to your product.
 If you do not mind my asking, what prompted you to want to write this? I know why I have have wanted Christine Morgan to get hers off the internet and into a print volume, but I was just curious what the spark was that told you that this needed to happen, and now?
Oh... and good luck. I am looking forward to seeing this when you are done.


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## KDLadage (Apr 30, 2003)

*Double Post*

Nothing to see here. Move along, move along.


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## mkarol (Apr 30, 2003)

Yes, thank you for clearing the air and "outing" yourself


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## Hand of Evil (Apr 30, 2003)

Hello, welcome aboard and don't think you have to defend yourself or your work.  Any information you can provide would be appreciated as I do think we are muture and all know how to handle adult issues.  


Hong, sex can help any one rep!


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## kenjib (Apr 30, 2003)

Hello Gwendolyn,

Thanks for posting here.  To what extent does the book cover topics of fetish and occult sex rites?  The press release seems very much slanted toward these topics in a very intentional manner.  Are these topics covered in depth or is this a marketing tactic?


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## JacktheRabbit (Apr 30, 2003)

*Re: Author of The Book of Erotic Fantasy*



			
				GKestrel said:
			
		

> *The topics are treated with taste, seriousness, and humor.  It's not an in-your-face book.
> 
> Gwendolyn F.M. Kestrel
> "Unashamed." *





Thanks for the information.

I do not know why but I keep getting the horrid images in my mind of those 1950's US goverment informational movies. You know the one with the commentator who spoke in the background:

"Now watch as young Bobby climbs into bed."

"Oops don't forget to take your clothes off first"

Bobby looks up with an 'oops' look on his face then starts to undress.


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## Mark (May 1, 2003)

*Re: Author of The Book of Erotic Fantasy*



			
				GKestrel said:
			
		

> *I've spoken with Anthony about the prospect of sharing a few excerpts from the text with the public in the near future. *




Perhaps, before you even go that far, you might give everyone some idea of the types of new material you will be bringing to the pool.  Of course, some material will be OGC simply because it has to be, but are there any new mechanics that you are probably going to open up just because you'd like to see them picked-up at other Pubs?  If so, what please?  Hook me now while you have my attention...


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## diaglo (May 1, 2003)

*Re: Re: Author of The Book of Erotic Fantasy*



			
				DocMoriartty said:
			
		

> *
> 
> 
> Thanks for the information.
> ...




yeah, i'm seeing Masters and Johnson written all over the cover of this one too.


Edit: or Kinsey.


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## LostSoul (May 1, 2003)

I, for one, am looking forward to this book.  I'm developing a campaign world in which sex is a big part, so this might be able to help.  

I just hope there aren't any mechanics for having sex.


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## d20Dwarf (May 1, 2003)

*Re: Re: Author of The Book of Erotic Fantasy*



			
				Mark said:
			
		

> *
> but are there any new mechanics that you are probably going to open up just because you'd like to see them picked-up at other Pubs? *




Can we please not use the abbreviation "pubs" in context of this conversation? 

I think even though the author feels besieged to a point, the issue remains the fact that the  press release for the product barely mentioned the fact that there would be any writing in the book whatsoever, instead focusing on the fetish photography and sexual antics of the book's publisher.

What impression were people supposed to get?


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## Mark (May 1, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: Author of The Book of Erotic Fantasy*



			
				d20Dwarf said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Can we please not use the abbreviation "pubs" in context of this conversation?
> 
> ...




It's so rare I ask a serious question.  Can't we just...?

I am interested.  I don't know many people who decide to bring a book to print without a fairly good idea of what is going into it, even if the exact wording isn't planned this far in advance.  I have no doubt they have discussed what types of mechanics will be in the book.  I have no impression of the book myself, because I am very much a wait-and-see kind of guy when it comes to products.  Just wait and see _my_ next one!


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## Piratecat (May 1, 2003)

Gwendolyn, we've known each other for like 12 years. This is kind of surreal.  

 - Kevin Kulp


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## jasper (May 1, 2003)

Yeah fusangite about as canon as all other splat books. Change canon to part of and I could swallow the rest of your post.


I hope your book does well but I will not buy it. Don't feel single out since I have only bought the core books and the dragon slayers guide by E.GG.


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## Belen (May 1, 2003)

Ms. Kestrel,

While many of the replies to this book under your post has been positive.  I felt a need to speak out in opposition.  First, the fact that both you and Mr. Valterra remain attached to WOTC only proves that Valar is not the independent company that you'd like us to believe.  Since, AV mentioned starting a private label run by WOTC but for mature products, I see no reason to believe that this is not connected.

Second, how will you keep this material away from kids?  It will be impossible to keep gaming material out of the hands of children.  Many 18 year old high school students play with kids of younger age.  I am certain that they will see no trouble in excepting the money of friends to buy the DnD porn book.  You may not care if chidren get the material of not, but as a person living under the rule of the preachers in the bible belt, I have an interest in not seeing public railing against our hobby from the pulpit!  Yes, demon-worship may be passe these days, but you are tapping right into the biggest fear among parents: sex.

Third, the book does not even have the good taste to use fantasy art.  Whereas many parents may ignore cartoon pictures, I guarantee you that real models will make them look twice.  It will be REAL nudity.  How can you justify this?  What place does eroticism have in a game?

Fourth, the BoEF will only serve to heighten the gamer stereotype of nerds playing the parents basements.  It will serve to fuel the image that a bunch of guys with no social life and an inability to get a girlfriend, play this game.  It is a stereotype that I have worked against for a decade.  It has been bad enough trying to get past people's beliefs and let them see the truth.  Most people will see this book and never even take the time to listen!

I am not telling anyone that they cannot make sex part of their game.  That is for each group to decide on their own.  In fact, the GMs should be the one's making the material!  It is a game of imagination afterall.  Why do we need RULES for sex?  Did you ever consider that by turning sex into a die roll that you are lessening it in real life?  Kids who get this book will not truly respect the act if they are "experienced" with in game sex!  Or is this a liberal political agenda to bring more people around to your viewpoint by targeting people at a young age?  Because it will be teens, especially virgins who finds this book to be the most desireable.

I am sure that people will rail against me and bandy names such as troll and puritan.  However, it is MY image that concerns me.  I love the game of DnD and I hate that I have defend myself, my morality and my honor from people because of the existing stereotype.  For those of you who want to say that this book will have no effect, that I am a doomsayer, or that I should not try to censure others for what they do in their private homes, then you are not seeing the point of my argument.  

I have no desire to control what you do in your own group.  You can still DO it.  We do not need a public set of rules for ertocia in DnD.  This is simplely a move to create controversy in order to sell a product: DnD.  And I do know that WOTC is involved.  I know that you do not care how we, the players, appear to others.  You're in it for the money, but I do wish that you'd considered that angle.

The only thing that I can do is write Hasbo and WOTC and let them know what I think.  In fact, I will be sending multiple letters, including a petition started by my players and circulating around the local game shops and universities.  I did not fight the BoVD, but I will not go quietly into the darkness on this issue.


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## herald (May 1, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Author of The Book of Erotic Fantasy*



			
				Mark said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Just wait and see my next one!  *




Mark will be writing a book on what happens to characters after they are retired.

There will be rules for sending your characters to a retirement home, or Assisted Living complex, various races opinions on old adventures and there retirement. (Orcs tend to eat their own, and then steal thier stuff as opposed to the Halflings who steal thier stuff and then eat them.)

Included in the OGL will be rules for wrestling night nurses, Using charisma to get a better spongebath, and using bluff to keep people intersested in your old "War" stories. 

Web Enhancements will include "Retiring your Epic Character" and "Divine Ascension and Bedpans." to coinside with with the Epic Rules Handbook and Dieties and Demigods rules when they hit the SRD.

Look for "Knocking on Heaven's Door: Retired Characters" in a friendly gaming store near you.


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## heirodule (May 1, 2003)

Sirius_Black said:
			
		

> *Good for you Mrs. Kestrel.  It took a great deal of courage to post this message with the Puritan uprising that has already taken place. *




The Puritans were actually quite frank in their attitudes about sex, and wrote steamy love poetry.

Its the Victorians who had what we would erroneously call "hangups".


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## Mark (May 1, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Author of The Book of Erotic Fantasy*



			
				herald said:
			
		

> *Mark will be writing a book on what happens to characters after they are retired.
> 
> There will be rules for sending your characters to a retirement home, or Assisted Living complex, various races opinions on old adventures and there retirement. (Orcs tend to eat their own, and then steal thier stuff as opposed to the Halflings who steal thier stuff and then eat them.)
> 
> ...




_*Mark scribbles down a few notes...looks up...whistles nonchalantly...strolls off a few feet then dashes for the door!*_


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## herald (May 1, 2003)

I'm eager to see if this is a book that I will buy. I have spoken to my wife and she seems interested too.

I also know that there are other adults in our game. (We have a group that I like to call the Parent's League.) Who are interested in as well.

As for the children that we have, I don't let then look though any of my books. There still to young. That doesn't mean that I don't encourage them to enjoy fantasy. I just perfer that they go out and play right now and when I feel that they are old enough, I will bring out my books and slowly let them enter the game. 

I look forward to your work.


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## Mark (May 1, 2003)

BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> *... the biggest fear among parents: sex.*




They oughta know...


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## herald (May 1, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Author of The Book of Erotic Fantasy*



			
				Mark said:
			
		

> *
> 
> *Mark scribbles down a few notes...looks up...whistles nonchalantly...strolls off a few feet then dashes for the door!* *




Hey...! 

Man, I hope I get a credit....

Yea like that will ever happen...


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## Mark (May 1, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Author of The Book of Erotic Fantasy*



			
				herald said:
			
		

> *Hey...!
> 
> Man, I hope I get a credit....
> 
> Yea like that will ever happen... *




I'll take that as a signed release form...in triplicate! 

(Please accpt this home version of our game for playing...)


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## CMG57 (May 1, 2003)

I am always surprised at the intolerance of gamers.  One might expect those engaged in a hobby  quick to be accused of being bad or evil to be a bit more open minded of things that are different.  Games depict every aspect of life: from war to food to sleeping, so why is it that games or game products depicting sex or even nudity cause such an uproar.  Is sexuality no longer considered part of life? As with all aspects of life, types of sexuality differ.  Should a manual of weapons disregard an axe as a weapon simply because I do not care to use an axe as a weapon?  No, it encompasses a variety of weapons, as should the Book of Erotic Fiction should encompass a variety of types of sexuality.   Yes, perhaps every campaign does not require a manual of this type.  Then again, no campaign requires every manual or supplement ever printed does it?  The photographs I have seen are professionally done and tasteful.  It matters not  what the photographer does on his own time and with his own career. The fact is that he has produced quality prints for this manual.  The statement that  Anthony Valterra is using his position at Wizards to further this project holds no logic; anyone, yes, anyone may use the OGL/d20 license for their product as long as they follow the requirements listed therein.  This product is not intended for children, obviously it  is intended for mature, adult gamers. Keeping products that parents feel are inappropriate for children away from children is not the responsibility of any manufacturer whether it be medication, household cleaners, books or games.  It is the responsibility of the parent.  Most certainly I will buy a copy of the Book of Erotic Fiction and bravo to Valar Project for being innovative. 

Calye


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## Quinn (May 1, 2003)

*Re: Author of The Book of Erotic Fantasy*



			
				GKestrel said:
			
		

> *The work is, indeed, focused on sex. It has an erotic slant. The topics are treated with taste, seriousness, and humor.  It's not an in-your-face book.
> 
> It's a game product.  One of which I'm proud to be an author. I believe it is full of good, solid rules mechanics appropriate for audiences interested in including such topics in their games.
> 
> *




This is a far cry from the press release which said:

_"A generation of fantasy roleplaying game enthusiasts grew up wondering what the elf maiden looked like without those gauzy robes."_

and

_"Anthony Valterra helped found a fetish club (Oregon Guild Activists of S/M) and an occult church (Church of the Blood Red Moon) as well as engaging in a wide variety of other unusual adventures. He has used these personal experiences to guide him in the creation of this product."_

I'm sorry, but that sounded very "in your face" to me and gave me a really bad first impression.  Personally, Gwendolyn, I think you should've written the initial press release.  As for the product, I'll wait and see, but still.....baaaad first impression.


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## Squirrel Nutkin (May 1, 2003)

To Whom it May Concern at Hasbro and WotC,

While many of the threads about Dungeons & Dragons on this board have been positive. I felt a need to speak out in opposition.

How will you keep these rulebooks away from kids? It will be impossible to keep gaming material out of the hands of children. You may not care if chidren get the material of not, but as a person living under the rule of the preachers in the bible belt, I have an interest in not seeing public railing against our hobby from the pulpit! Yes, demon-worship may be passe these days, but you are tapping right into the biggest fears among parents: theft, violence, and murder.

How can you justify this? What place does crime and bloodshed have in a game?

D&D will only serve to heighten the gamer stereotype of "trenchcoat mafia" kids with trigger-happy fingers. It will serve to fuel the image that a bunch of sociopathic guys play this game. It is a stereotype that I have worked against for a decade. It has been bad enough trying to get past people's beliefs and let them see the truth. Most people will see these books and never even take the time to listen!

I am not telling anyone that they cannot make crime and violence a part of their game. That is for each group to decide on their own. In fact, the GMs should be the one's making the material! It is a game of imagination afterall. Why do we need RULES for robbing and killing people? Did you ever consider that by turning crime into a die roll that you are lessening it in real life? Kids who get this book will not truly respect the act if they are "experienced" with in game murder! Or is this a liberal political agenda to bring more people around to your viewpoint by targeting people at a young age? Because it will be teens, especially angry young misfits who finds this book to be the most desireable.

I am sure that people will rail against me and bandy names such as troll and hippy. However, it is MY image that concerns me. I love Hasbro's less offensive card games and boardgames (except for Clue which is very inappropriate) and I hate that I have defend myself, my morality and my honor from people because of the existing stereotype. For those of you who want to say that this book will have no effect, that I am a doomsayer, or that I should not try to censure others for what they do in their private homes, then you are not seeing the point of my argument. 

I have no desire to control what you do in your own group. You can still DO it. We do not need a public set of rules for burglary and murder in D&D. This is simply a move to create controversy in order to sell a product: D&D. I know that you do not care how we, the players, appear to others. You're in it for the money, but I do wish that you'd considered that angle.

The only thing that I can do is write you and let you know what I think. In fact, I will be sending multiple letters, including a petition started by my players and circulating around the local game shops and universities. I did not fight TV, movies, and video games, but I will not go quietly into the darkness on this issue.

Squirrel Nutkin


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## Belen (May 1, 2003)

Squirrel,

Personally, I think that was wrong, man.  I have no desire to start a flame war, so I will refrain from dropping down to the level you wish, but if you have a point then you should write it yourself instead of plagarizing someone else's work.

We all have a write to our own viewpoint.  Ye gods, this is why I do not like messageboards.  <sigh>

Dave


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## Quinn (May 1, 2003)

Squirrel Nutkin said:
			
		

> *I love Hasbro's less offensive card games and boardgames (except for Clue which is very inappropriate) and I hate that I have defend myself, my morality and my honor from people because of the existing stereotype.*




ROFLMAO!


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## hong (May 1, 2003)

Squirrel Nutkin said:
			
		

> *
> Yes, demon-worship may be passe these days, but you are tapping right into the biggest fears among parents: theft, violence, and murder.
> *




Not to mention really big bazongas.


Hong "prefers small bazongas, really" Ooi


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## Squirrel Nutkin (May 1, 2003)

BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> *We all have a write to our own viewpoint.*



I agree. And as somebody who feels that violence is wrong and sex is not, I think I just made my own viewpoint crystal clear.


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## Zappo (May 1, 2003)

Sirius_Black said:
			
		

> *Good for you Mrs. Kestrel.  It took a great deal of courage to post this message with the Puritan uprising that has already taken place.*



From what I've seen, it's just a vocal minority that strongly opposes this book. Half of the other thread was composed of the same bunch of people posting in circles. And consider the vast, vast majority that just shrugged and didn't even bother to post!


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## Assenpfeffer (May 1, 2003)

fusangite said:
			
		

> > *Because of the way the OGL D20 system works, your book will be viewed as part of the canon of D&D.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Quinn (May 1, 2003)

Zappo said:
			
		

> *From what I've seen, it's just a vocal minority that strongly opposes this book. Half of the other thread was composed of the same bunch of people posting in circles. And consider the vast, vast majority that just shrugged and didn't even bother to post! *




Very true.  The only part that bugs me is that this is what eventually makes it into Newsweek or the 6 o'clock news.  Nothing about the success of Wizards of the Coast, the resurgence in RPGs...no, nothing sells except "Oh look, those D&D wackjobs are at it again!"  To have a book that seems destined to feed right into that mindset bothers me.


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## thundershot (May 1, 2003)

I think people need to read Squirrel's reply a little closer... 



Chris


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## Pielorinho (May 1, 2003)

Quinn said:
			
		

> *Very true.  The only part that bugs me is that this is what eventually makes it into Newsweek or the 6 o'clock news.  Nothing about the success of Wizards of the Coast, the resurgence in RPGs...no, nothing sells except "Oh look, those D&D wackjobs are at it again!"  To have a book that seems destined to feed right into that mindset bothers me. *




Huh?  I'll be surprised if you can show me a single article in a major news outlet that mentions, by name, a single D20/OGL product.  Much less an article ABOUT a D20/OGL product.

I think you have an inflated sense of how much the rest of the world cares about our little niche.  We're good for some throwaway jokes on late-night TV, but nobody give's a squirrel's butt about the particulars of our hobby, except for those of us engaged in it.

As for preachermen freaking out about any particular product, again, I think you've got too much faith in them.  The religious rants I've seen about D&D have betrayed a deep ignorance about the game, have shown that the ranters haven't ever picked up one of the basic rulebooks.  Anti-D&D folks don't hang out on D&D messageboards, don't cruise game shops looking at new products.  Their twenty-year-old stereotypes suit them just fine, thankyouverymuch.

Of course, if you can produce an anti-D&D rant that mentions the Book of Vile Darkness by name, I'll be impressed and will retract that last comment. (NOT an anti-BOVD rant:  a rant about the evils of RPGs in general)

Tempest, meet teapot.  Teapot, tempest.  Have fun!
Daniel


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## Psion (May 1, 2003)

CMG57 said:
			
		

> *I am always surprised at the intolerance of gamers.  One might expect those engaged in a hobby  quick to be accused of being bad or evil to be a bit more open minded of things that are different.  Games depict every aspect of life: from war to food to sleeping, so why is it that games or game products depicting sex or even nudity cause such an uproar.*




Considering one person in this thread has been critical thus far, I am confused where this "uproar" is. Considering how naturally contraversial sex issues are, I consider this rather tame. If there is any uproar, it seems to be the folks yelling out how they are being oppressed.


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## d20Dwarf (May 1, 2003)

Psion said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Considering one person in this thread has been critical thus far, I am confused where this "uproar" is. Considering how naturally contraversial sex issues are, I consider this rather tame. If there is any uproar, it seems to be the folks yelling out how they are being oppressed. *




Well said!


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## lmccauley (May 1, 2003)

Squirrel Nutkin said:
			
		

> *To Whom it May Concern at Hasbro and WotC,
> ...*



Bravo!


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## Ghostwind (May 1, 2003)

It continues to amaze me how many people think that a game approaching 30 yrs old is so fragile that no one may ever deviate outside the norm without risking the destruction of the game. For those of you who are old enough to remember, much the same was said about the first comic books that chose not to go with the CCA label and produce more mature and adult stories and art. Comic books are still big business and continue to thrive. Why would D&D be any different?

There is a line of thought that says, "We must not publish books like this because it will warp the development of our fragile youth." My response to this is, "What makes this different from any other mature subject matter?" Instead of "Erotic Book of Fantasy" substitute "racy, violent R-rated Hollywood movie" and see if it changes the perspective any. You can go to any bookstore and pick up a paperback book filled with provacative fiction designed to shock the reader and draw him into the story. Do we rally against this also? It is the responsibility of the parents to be involved in their child's life and know what he or she is doing, reading, playing, etc. It starts at the home and ends at the home. To condemn a publisher and writer because you feel the book will fall into the hands of younger gamers is wrong. In essence you are saying that "in order to ensure that no inappropriate material is viewed by our youth we should deprive everyone of the right to this material. If you want something like this in your campaign, make it up yourself."

The fact remains that there is a significantly large number of gamers who have played D&D since its early days who would welcome material that is not so formulaic and generic. Why does everything HAVE to be written for the 15-20 yr old gamer? If given proper treatment, a mature line of gaming products would likely flourish among the older gamers who are looking for more than just dungeon hack-n-slash. D&D isn't always about killing things. There are many more facets to the game that many GMs are actively incorporating into their campaigns. From what I have read, this book sounds like a tool for those GMs who want to have more to their games than dungeon crawls and published adventures. I applaud Gwendolyn for having a genuine desire to create books for this segment of the gaming population.

Finally, a couple of folks have commented that the authors are in it for the money and nothing else. As someone who is heavily involved in the industry, I have to say "Ha! Don't kid yourself." Valar and the authors are certainly not in it for the money. There is very little money to be had in the RPG publishing business. Any publisher out there will testify that it is a love for the hobby coupled with a desire to do well that drives them. Publishers (and especially writers) make very little money on products. Don't believe me? Read this thread where Jim Butler explains some of the logistical costs involved in making books. Then maybe you will understand that money is certainly not a factor here.


----------



## MerakSpielman (May 1, 2003)

Squirrel Nutkin said:
			
		

> *To Whom it May Concern at Hasbro and WotC,
> 
> How will you keep these rulebooks away from kids?
> *




The same way you keep all of your other adult material away from kids. And they're not the publishers of the BoEF.



> *
> How can you justify this? What place does crime and bloodshed have in a game?
> *





Do we play the same game? Crime and bloodshed have been staples of fantasy RPG since it came along. Have any of your D&D sessions honestly gone by without bloodshed? 

*



			D&D will only serve to heighten the gamer stereotype of "trenchcoat mafia" kids with trigger-happy fingers. It will serve to fuel the image that a bunch of sociopathic guys play this game. It is a stereotype that I have worked against for a decade. It has been bad enough trying to get past people's beliefs and let them see the truth. Most people will see these books and never even take the time to listen!
		
Click to expand...


*
Are you attacking D&D specifically as a game that gives people the wrong impression about gamers in general?

Get over it. People don't care what gamers do. Even the bible-thumpers don't really care, since they already made up their minds on the subject 20 years ago (there are some minds it's not worth the time and trouble to try to change). There have been no uproars against D&D for a LONG time - and it's not because they took the demons and devils out of the Monster Manual. Nobody cares anymore. The BoVD didn't even make a blip on the radar of this supposed community of anti-D&D fanatics, waiting for any excuse to use the game as a scapegoat for their children's personality problems. If a book about demon worship and ritual sacrifice didn't bother them, why will a few nekkid elves?




> *I am not telling anyone that they cannot make crime and violence a part of their game. That is for each group to decide on their own. In fact, the GMs should be the one's making the material! It is a game of imagination afterall. Why do we need RULES for robbing and killing people? Did you ever consider that by turning crime into a die roll that you are lessening it in real life? Kids who get this book will not truly respect the act if they are "experienced" with in game murder! Or is this a liberal political agenda to bring more people around to your viewpoint by targeting people at a young age? Because it will be teens, especially angry young misfits who finds this book to be the most desireable.*





How will the BoEF promote any of these things? It seems it will focus on eroticism, not crime and violence (at least, not any more than the PHB and DMG already do, and I don't see you picking on them). How can you have a game without crime? What do the characters do in a world where everybody treats everybody nicely and there is no devient behavior to be heroic about? And violence? Do you even use the sections on Combat? I don't understand. You've been around a long time, Nutkin. You even have your own spin-off board. Have you only just now noticed that D&D is a game full of blood, crime, and violence? Why aren't you protesting the sex? That's what this new book is about, not crime and violence.



> *I am sure that people will rail against me and bandy names such as troll and hippy. *




Not at all.


> *However, it is MY image that concerns me. *




Clearly.


> *I love Hasbro's less offensive card games and boardgames (except for Clue which is very inappropriate) and I hate that I have defend myself, my morality and my honor from people because of the existing stereotype. For those of you who want to say that this book will have no effect, that I am a doomsayer, or that I should not try to censure others for what they do in their private homes, then you are not seeing the point of my argument.*





Is this the same Squirrel Nutkin who started Nutkinland, where things are a lot more gritty than here at EN world? If not, I appologize, but I thought you were a bit more open minded than this. For anybody who hasn't been there, here's nutkinland.



> *I have no desire to control what you do in your own group. You can still DO it. We do not need a public set of rules for burglary and murder in D&D. *





We already have that... In the PHB.



> *This is simply a move to create controversy in order to sell a product: D&D.*





This product has been officially protested by WoTC. Maybe part of the publicity stunt, maybe not. What they really want to sell is the BoEF.



> *I know that you do not care how we, the players, appear to others. You're in it for the money, but I do wish that you'd considered that angle.*





I could care less how I appear to others. Everybody has heard of D&D. Everybody has their opinions about it already. This book won't alarm people and more than other books on sex for RPGs have.



> *The only thing that I can do is write you and let you know what I think. In fact, I will be sending multiple letters, including a petition started by my players and circulating around the local game shops and universities. I did not fight TV, movies, and video games, but I will not go quietly into the darkness on this issue.*




Perfectly within your rights. Good luck. Just make sure you know what you're protesting. This will be a book on eriticism and sex, not blood and violence. 

Or were you protesting anything that has crime and murder in it? 'Cause that means you're protesting most RPGs out there, and you're going to be sending a LOT of letters.


----------



## Squirrel Nutkin (May 1, 2003)

Uh... Merak, you might wanna read BelenUmeria's message first, and _then_ read my reply.


----------



## d20Dwarf (May 1, 2003)

Ghostwind said:
			
		

> *Comic books are still big business and continue to thrive. Why would D&D be any different?
> *




Thrive? Comic books are dying on the shelves as an industry, it's not nearly as vibrant as it once was. The decline coincided with the rise in the number of independent, edgy, ULTRA violent, ULTRA sexual comic books.

Whether or not that was the cause of the decline, I can't say, so don't go accusing me of post hoc ergo propter hoc.  I'm just saying that it's possible that this sort of content DOES hurt sales in a primarily escapist market, whether it be aimed at children or adults.


----------



## Pielorinho (May 1, 2003)

MerakSpielman said:
			
		

> [snip]




On another messageboard I'm on, occasionally someone will post something sarcastically, and another poster will take them seriously, not realizing that they're responding to a sarcastic post.  To represent the sound of the joke going over their head, onlookers will reply:

WHOOOSH!

I'm just sayin', is all. 

Daniel


----------



## KDLadage (May 1, 2003)

MerakSpielman said:
			
		

> *--snip--*



Wow. It has been thirteen years since I witnessed anybody miss a point by a margin *that* wide... I mean, wow.

Note to MerakSpielman: I suggest you go back and re-read the thread. Mr. Nutkin was (quite obviously) making his point through hyperbole and satire.


----------



## Liquid Snake (May 1, 2003)

Well said Ghostwind.

By the criteria of all those fundamentalists (insiders or outsiders to RPGs) how much of the stuff White Wolf makes is not "harbinger of doom" to RPG, the book that is really going to tick off the media and smite us with their anger?

D&D and Gaming are stronger than this.


----------



## MerakSpielman (May 1, 2003)

Squirrel Nutkin said:
			
		

> *Uh... Merak, you might wanna read BelenUmeria's message first, and then read my reply.  *




Uhhhh...

We dont' have a smiliy for blushing do we?


Sorry Nutkin, my faith in you is restored.

I really missed that one.

But hey, I only missed one post....


I'll leave my post up there to amuse future travelers to these parts. Glad I could lighten y'alls day.


----------



## Assenpfeffer (May 1, 2003)

The message temporarily recalled...


----------



## Pielorinho (May 1, 2003)

You're a good sport, Merak.

Daniel


----------



## MerakSpielman (May 1, 2003)

Pielorinho said:
			
		

> *You're a good sport, Merak.
> 
> Daniel *






			
				MerakSpielman said:
			
		

> *I could care less how I appear to others.*




However, it's actually kind of fun being the dunce...


----------



## Harlock (May 1, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: Author of The Book of Erotic Fantasy*



			
				d20Dwarf said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Can we please not use the abbreviation "pubs" in context of this conversation?
> 
> ...




Thanks Wil!  I guess I'll go buy a book you wrote now for saying what I wanted to.


----------



## lmccauley (May 1, 2003)

MerakSpielman said:
			
		

> *
> I'll leave my post up there to amuse future travelers to these parts. Glad I could lighten y'alls day.
> 
> *



Good on ya.  You certainly made me smile - if you'd pulled the post then I probably would have missed it.

Cheers,
Liam


----------



## herald (May 1, 2003)

Well we all know that burning the Harry Potter books was so very successful. And no one went to see his movies after that. And those DVD's and games that have his pictures on them, well they just sit on the shelves and...

Said it before and I will say it again...

"Debbie does Dallas" didn't ruin the Dallas Cowboys. (Niether did having it's cheerleaders posing nude for Playboy) This will not ruin D&D.


----------



## Quinn (May 1, 2003)

Pielorinho said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Huh?  I'll be surprised if you can show me a single article in a major news outlet that mentions, by name, a single D20/OGL product.  Much less an article ABOUT a D20/OGL product.
> 
> I think you have an inflated sense of how much the rest of the world cares about our little niche.  We're good for some throwaway jokes on late-night TV, but nobody give's a squirrel's butt about the particulars of our hobby, except for those of us engaged in it.*




Nope, I've never heard a product mentioned by name.  However, news reports have used pictures and artwork taken from WotC books for their broadcasts.

It came up with this trial recently, which is why this bothers me: http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/2004489/detail.html

Does it matter that they didn't mention a specific d20/OGL product by name?  I don't think so.  It's probably more hurtful that media reports just say "Dungeons & Dragons".  Let's put it this way: name any time where RPGs have received good press in major news outlets.


----------



## Assenpfeffer (May 1, 2003)

BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> *While many of the replies to this book under your post has been positive.  I felt a need to speak out in opposition.  First, the fact that both you and Mr. Valterra remain attached to WOTC only proves that Valar is not the independent company that you'd like us to believe.  Since, AV mentioned starting a private label run by WOTC but for mature products, I see no reason to believe that this is not connected.*




Have we established that Ms. Kestrel is attached to WotC?  I must have missed that.



> *Second, how will you keep this material away from kids?  It will be impossible to keep gaming material out of the hands of children.*




Fun Fact #3 - most game and comic shops _already_ carry adult material.  You may not see it - it may be behind the counter, or stashed in the back room.  They may not stock it, only order it if somebody requests it.  The game or comic store that has _never_ dealt with adult material is a rarity.

I _guarantee_ that much of that nasty anime and smut comics are more over-the-top, and considerably more offensive, than BoEF will be.



> *Many 18 year old high school students play with kids of younger age.  I am certain that they will see no trouble in excepting the money of friends to buy the DnD porn book.  You may not care if chidren get the material of not, but as a person living under the rule of the preachers in the bible belt, I have an interest in not seeing public railing against our hobby from the pulpit!  Yes, demon-worship may be passe these days, but you are tapping right into the biggest fear among parents: sex.*




I have this weird idea where it's the parents' responsibility to keep objectionable material out of kids' hands.  Not the publishers, and not self-styled industry watchdogs.



> *Third, the book does not even have the good taste to use fantasy art.  Whereas many parents may ignore cartoon pictures, I guarantee you that real models will make them look twice.  It will be REAL nudity.  How can you justify this?  What place does eroticism have in a game?*




Since you've already seen enough of the art to know that it contains nudity and conclude that it's in bad taste, could we see some samples?



> *Fourth, the BoEF will only serve to heighten the gamer stereotype of nerds playing the parents basements.  It will serve to fuel the image that a bunch of guys with no social life and an inability to get a girlfriend, play this game.*




Occasionally I am struck silent by little ironies like this.



> *Most people will see this book and never even take the time to listen!*





No... most people will never see or hear of this book in the first place.



> *Did you ever consider that by turning sex into a die roll that you are lessening it in real life?  Kids who get this book will not truly respect the act if they are "experienced" with in game sex!*




Anyone who has actually _had_ sex would understand the fundamental presposterousness of this notion.



> *Or is this a liberal political agenda to bring more people around to your viewpoint by targeting people at a young age?*




Indeed, it's all a plot by the Commies.  Where's Joe McCarthy when you need him?



> *Because it will be teens, especially virgins who finds this book to be the most desireable.*




I can think of a couple of people who seem unhealthily fixated on it, that's for sure.



> *I am sure that people will rail against me and bandy names such as troll and puritan.  However, it is MY image that concerns me.  I love the game of DnD and I hate that I have defend myself, my morality and my honor from people because of the existing stereotype.*




At some point in your life you're going to realize that defensiveness and emotional overinvolvement in gaming isn't going to actually net you anything for all the aggravation it generates.  Especially when it comes to absolute non-issues like this one



> *For those of you who want to say that this book will have no effect, that I am a doomsayer, or that I should not try to censure others for what they do in their private homes, then you are not seeing the point of my argument.*





You've got that right.



> *And I do know that WOTC is involved.*




You know that Anthny Valterra is involved and that he works for WotC.  Neither of us knows who owns Valar or the actual extent of Valterra's involvement.  A corporation is not indivisble from its employees or stockholders.  A corporation's employees and stockholders can operate independently of the corporation and contrary to the corporation's wishes.

So please demonstrate some _evidence_ - not hearsay or from-between-the-cheeks speculation - that there is any kind of connection between Valar and WotC, other than Valterra working for WotC and having some involvement with Valar ownership.  Corporate ownership is a matter of public record - you can look this kind of stuff up.



> *The only thing that I can do is write Hasbo and WOTC and let them know what I think.  In fact, I will be sending multiple letters, including a petition started by my players and circulating around the local game shops and universities.  I did not fight the BoVD, but I will not go quietly into the darkness on this issue.*




Good grief.


----------



## ColonelHardisson (May 1, 2003)

Assenpfeffer said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Have we established that Ms. Kestrel is attached to WotC?  I must have missed that.
> *




She's definitely done a lot of work for WotC, in print and on their website.


----------



## Gothmog (May 1, 2003)

A couple of thoughts here:

To those of you concerned that young children might get their hands on this book, and possibly see nudity- didn't any of you look at Playboy or Penthouse magazines when you were a kid?  I know I had seen those magazines by the time I was 10, and I am from an upper class family that didn't have ANY porn in the house.  And from the game store owners I know personally, I know that they would not sell this book to someone who was too young.  Its far easier for a kid to get his hands on REAL porn than this book, and real porn is likely to be more alluring and "forbidden" than the BoEF.  Heck, I'd guess a in large percentage of households out there, the parents probably have some porn magazines/videos/whatever already stashed away that a kid could stumble across if they really looked.  Most gas station owners are not as picky about who they sell porn to as game store owners would be.  And a kid who gets his hands on porn often tries to show it to his friends.  You are delusional if you think that the BoEF will be the first time little Jimmy sees boobies.  That arguement holds NO water.  For those of you that are really concerned about your kids seeing images of nude females (or males), wouldn't your time be better served by protesting to ACTUAL porn companies?

Originally posted by BelenUmeria:


> Fourth, the BoEF will only serve to heighten the gamer stereotype of nerds playing the parents basements. It will serve to fuel the image that a bunch of guys with no social life and an inability to get a girlfriend, play this game. It is a stereotype that I have worked against for a decade. It has been bad enough trying to get past people's beliefs and let them see the truth. Most people will see this book and never even take the time to listen!




Not to pick on you specifically BelenUmeria, but gamers always have had that stereotype, as well as any participants in more intellectual activities.  Chess clubs, science geeks, computer nerds, gamers- they are all lumped into the same category.  That stereotype exists because there are a sizable number of people in each of those groups for which it IS TRUE.  It doesn't matter if it is true or not for you personally, because when someone gets to know you and finds it isn't true, they will think "well, he's an oddity in that group."  Its not really even a negative stereotype, its just not one that will allow a person into the "hip" crowd, and I don't give a rat's behind what the hip crowd thinks of me.

Originally posted by BelenUmeria:


> Or is this a liberal political agenda to bring more people around to your viewpoint by targeting people at a young age? Because it will be teens, especially virgins who finds this book to be the most desireable.




Oh, give me a break!  This is not some conspiracy by liberals to undermine the morality of American (or any) youth!  See above for the availability of porn materials to ANY youth who wants it today.  And unless you have PROOF that AV is covertly tied to WoTC to produce this product, anything else about that is pure speculation.  Yes, AV probably did use his name recognition to achieve a bigger furor over this than it would have received otherwise- but who cares?  Nobody screamed and predicted doomsday for gaming when Mongoose released their Nymphology book.

This book won't make a bit of difference how gaming is percieved by the public, because they simply don't care anymore.  There are better and more important things to be upset about than what a fringe group of society does with their free time.  Gaming will never acheive widespread public acceptance or participation (nor would I want it to- it would be a disaster for this hobby).  For those of you who object to this book, don't look at it, and don't buy it.  I myself am not particularly interested in this book, but BY GOD I am not going to put myself on moral high ground and inform others that I won't let them have the chance to use this material in their game.  Seems like common sense to me.  Live and let live everybody.

By the way Squirrel Nutkin- nice parody.  I am always amazed by how people get so fired up over sex in a game, but gloss over killing, stealing, and random acts of violence like it wasn't there


----------



## seasong (May 1, 2003)

*Re: Author of The Book of Erotic Fantasy*



			
				GKestrel said:
			
		

> I wish to clarify the authorship.



Thanks. It doesn't really matter, but thanks. PirateCat smiles upon you, and that's good enough for me.







> The work is, indeed, focused on sex. It has an erotic slant. The topics are treated with taste, seriousness, and humor.  It's not an in-your-face book.



The biggest problem with your book is your ad copy. Here is my review, and some suggestions:

*A Review of Valar Project ad copy, by seasong*

An exciting new book is being published by Anthony Valtera, and written by Gwendolyn F.M. Kestrel and one unknown author. Or at least, we think it is. It's hard to tell what, exactly, the book is about. It's something about fantasy and sex, two taste-great things that may blend well, but...

_Okay, wait. Before I start on this, I want to be clear about something. I think this could be a cool book. I don't think a good adult book about romance, sex, seduction, or even depravity in a game would be a bad thing. I'm not going to include certain things in my campaign, but for those things I do choose to include, I wouldn't mind a written collection of ideas boiled down for the gamer pallate. This review *isn't about the book*. It also isn't about Gwendolyn or Anthony - they both seem like good people.

This is a review of the ad copy they wrote, or hired someone to write. Now back to the review._

Is this just a republishing of the online Guide to Unlawful Carnal Knowledge? A translation of _GURPS Sex_? A guide to romantic pursuit in psuedo-medieval fantasy? An expanded, 32-page cover of the arte of seduction? Or is this a City of the Spider Dominatrix module?

All we have to go on is the ad copy. And from the links in the copy, and the copy itself, my best guess would be that this is going to be a picture book of nekkid women in mediocre costumes and bad lighting*, with a few rules on how to handle subdual damage with a flail, and novel uses of Rope Use and Escape Artist.

I'm not saying that's what it IS. I'm saying that when I read the ad copy, and I look at the site it leads to, _that's the impression I get_. Gwendolyn made a post to ENWorld recently explaining the authorship, and let slip that "it has an erotic slant" and "it's a game product", but still I find myself thinking, "subdual damage with a flail".

Let's look at the ad copy in a bit more detail.

"A generation of fantasy roleplaying game enthusiasts grew up wondering what the elf maiden looked like without those gauzy robes."

This is the opening sentence, the _wham_ that captures your interest. It is passive voice**. Things roll downhill from there.

Firstly, while the book may be tasteful, this sentence is just juvenile. The point of the sentence is not romance, seduction or sex in mature games - the topic is the _juvenile fantasies_ that young boy enthusiasts grew up with.

Secondly, all of the women discussed are subjects of the lust, not active participants, while the men are encouraged to match the prowess of the legendary Conan. With the exception of Belit***, women were the subjects of lust there, too, rather than active participants. I don't care if the author of the book is a woman, that's stupid.

And yes, the ad copy may be misrepresenting the book. That's my point - it's _bad ad copy_.

Next, we have the apparently required blatant lie: "Valar Project, Inc. will be the first company to take on the subject of sex in the world of elves and dragons." Valar Project has apparently not heard of _Encyclopedia Arcane: Nymphology_. Or the _Book of Vile Darkness_. Or a half dozen supplements in other game systems, particularly White Wolf's _World of Darkness_ series. Now, maybe none of those books has covered the same aspects of sex, and I'd be perfectly willing to accept that, except that they don't _mention_ what aspects their book covers. The ad copy simply states, "In 2003 all the curiosity about sex in the realms of fantasy will be satisfied."

Riiiight. Just for that, I'm tempted to write a second review when the book comes out, titled, "Was all of my curiousity satisfied?"

At this point, we know that there are two things in the book: elf maidens without a gauzy robes, and rules for comparing your prowess to Conan's. Now we get to where the meat of the book is usually tucked away:

"All the images in the book use live models digitally enhanced from photographs. This process allows for realistic images of elves, fairies, nymphs and other standard fantasy characters."

I find it interesting that every standard fantasy character mentioned is fey or partially fey. In fact, every possible subject except Conan is, even the gauzy elf maiden and Arwen. If this is really what the book is about, may I suggest a quick visit to Elfwood? All of your curiousity may be better satisfied there. And between the Internet and Photoshop, I find it difficult to imagine that digitally altered photographs of the sort you might like is hard to find.

...and that's it, except for a link to the photographer's web site*, a photo of an attractive woman with grease smeared on her arms and a bloodied sword, and the "tip sheet".

The tip sheet is what really gets me. Anthony Valtera is not the author. So why do we care where he's worked for the past 3 years, that he founded a fetish club, or that he used his "adventures" to help create this product? What are _Gwendolyn's_ qualifications? And can we expect that every digitally altered photograph will have the attention to detail that this one does? How much machine grease should we expect in our fantasy?

For the photographer, see my footnotes.

* Most of the women on the site are very attractive. Many of them have excellent makeup jobs. Some of them aren't even nekkid, and have good costumes to boot. But there are only two men, a lot of mediocre costumes, and the lighting choices, from an artistic standpoint, were just plain bad. Either that, or the artist's scanner needs to be replaced. I got the feeling, skimming through, of a bad 80s MTV video with rapidly zooming and receding, whacky camera angles. The alien chair was possibly the best costume on the set... and I say possibly, because I _never got a good look at the costume_. Which is typical of the lighting choices in these pictures - even the elf woman that is given as an example in the ad copy looks like she's being lit by headlights somewhere in the direction she's looking. Maybe I'm missing the story - she could have been just teleported to the modern world, sloshed with grease by a mechanic in his garage, and stabbed him with her sword. That would also explain the bank-like stone brick scheme behind her.

** Passive voice has a purpose. It is grammatically correct, and very useful on occasion. The _wham_ statement is not one of them. Most writers use passive voice when they try to avoid personal responsibility for the text, lack comfort with the subject, or write scholarly acadamese.

*** Belit was easily the most interesting female character in the Conan mythoi, because she was one of the only interesting female characters, period. Still, she had spunk until she died tragically to give Conan something to grieve over.


----------



## Assenpfeffer (May 1, 2003)

ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> *She's definitely done a lot of work for WotC, in print and on their website. *




Freelance work?  Or on staff?


----------



## ColonelHardisson (May 1, 2003)

Assenpfeffer said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Freelance work?  Or on staff? *




I don't know for sure.


----------



## edbonny (May 1, 2003)

BlackWych said:
			
		

> *Don't you think this will perpetuate the negative perspective of D&D and gaming in general?  Or is it about the money? *




These questions are extremely narrow-minded as well as being leading. 

What "negative perspective" could you possibly be talking about? With an incredible successful relaunch of the the D&D line 3 years ago, various positive write-ups and mentions in magazines like Time/Newsweek and newspapers (New York Times), a slew of extremely popular video games and so much more, I can't fathom where a negative perspective even exists except perhaps among a fringe minority.

And this question "about the money?"  Nearly all books are published to make money - that pays the authors, printers, et. al. for their work. Do you want this book to be given away for free? Or are you implying something else.

Please enlighten me. I am curious as to what this negative perspective is and what money you are talking about.

- Ed


----------



## Belen (May 1, 2003)

I suddenly became a fan of seasong.  Great comments.


----------



## Quinn (May 1, 2003)

d20Dwarf said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Thrive? Comic books are dying on the shelves as an industry, it's not nearly as vibrant as it once was. The decline coincided with the rise in the number of independent, edgy, ULTRA violent, ULTRA sexual comic books.
> 
> Whether or not that was the cause of the decline, I can't say, so don't go accusing me of post hoc ergo propter hoc.  I'm just saying that it's possible that this sort of content DOES hurt sales in a primarily escapist market, whether it be aimed at children or adults. *




Hmmm...yet that's not really the segment of the comic book industry that's hurting right now.  In fact, the mature lines are doing very well.  The traditional super hero titles are the ones that have been suffering.  More likely reasons for the decline: oversaturation of the market with too many publishers putting out far too many titles, the disappearance of "comic book collectible" buyers who popped in and out around the time of the Death of Superman series, and rapid price increases forcing people to cut down on the sheer number of books bought.


----------



## Pielorinho (May 1, 2003)

Quinn said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Nope, I've never heard a product mentioned by name.  However, news reports have used pictures and artwork taken from WotC books for their broadcasts.
> 
> ...




Actually, that article is exactly what I'm talking about.  Can a prosecutor possibly get more ignorant than to suggest that Dungeons and Dragons compelled a teenager to describe his friends murdering somebody?

Do you think that the prosecutor is going to refer to any specific D&D product in the course of his arguments?  I highly doubt it.  In fact, I'll bet $50 that that prosecutor has never heard of the D20 license, and probably hasn't heard of the Book of Vile Darkness (the last tempest in a teapot we had 'round these parts).

The World at Large doesn't know jack about our geeky little hobby.  If someone publishes Elves Gone Wild, or Hobbits 'n Chains, or Gettin' Kinky with Polymorph Self, or whatever, nobody in the World at Large is going to notice.  They haven't noticed in the past, they're not noticing now, and there's no signs that they'll notice in the future.

There may be good arguments against this book (although I've not yet heard them).  Claiming that it's going to hurt the reputations of gamers is not a good argument.

Daniel


----------



## edbonny (May 1, 2003)

*Re: Author of The Book of Erotic Fantasy*



			
				GKestrel said:
			
		

> *The topic of the moment seems to be The Book of Erotic Fantasy.  Many posts have speculated about the book and its contents....(snip)...
> 
> Gwendolyn F.M. Kestrel
> "Unashamed." *




Congratulations on taking this bold step! This is a topic that has long deserved a tasteful examination. I am very interested in hearing more about the book's content. 

Romance, seduction, love, lust, love lost and all other aspects that can claim a link to things erotic are apart of our real world and so can (and do) become a part of our gaming world. 

Keep us updated!

- Ed


----------



## heirodule (May 1, 2003)

Gothmog said:
			
		

> *A couple of thoughts here:
> 
> To those of you concerned that young children might get their hands on this book, and possibly see nudity- didn't any of you look at Playboy or Penthouse magazines when you were a kid?  I know I had seen those magazines by the time I was 10, and I am from an upper class family that didn't have ANY porn in the house.  *




Yes, and look how its made you blase about sexuality being exposed to kids.


----------



## seasong (May 1, 2003)

BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> I suddenly became a fan of seasong.  Great comments.



Thanks . I am an occasionally rapid opponent of bad ad copy. What's this about some book being published somewhere? Is it any good?


----------



## thundershot (May 1, 2003)

*Elves Gone Wild!*

ROFL!! I wanna see "Elves Gone Wild" ...  I can see that one being done as a PDF, or maybe a segment for the next Portable Hole book.. 



Chris


----------



## maddman75 (May 1, 2003)

I'm still unclear about what this book is.  Is it a supplement of sexual/seduction rules, a la Guide to Unlawful Carnal Knowledge, or a book of erotic photography, with a few rules on the side?  What is the general demeanor of the photography?  There's a big difference between Playboy and Hustler, ya know.

As for possibly creating an uproar - that would only be good for the industry.  It was responsible for the big gaming boom in the 80s.  In the media, it doesn't matter what they are saying.  Just as long as they are saying it about you.

I also find offensive that only 'losers living in their parents basement who've never had actual sex' could only find eroticism and porn interesting.  None of those things describe me, and I enjoy erotic materials.  (Maybe its just me -- millions of web sites and I'm the only one )  As noted, most gaming shops carry adult anime or other comics and movies and so already deal with keeping inappropriate materials away from kids.

Also, I'd advise everyone to stay away from the "L" and "C" words in this discussion.  Politics gives them thar mods an itchy trigger finger.


----------



## Quinn (May 1, 2003)

Pielorinho said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Actually, that article is exactly what I'm talking about.  Can a prosecutor possibly get more ignorant than to suggest that Dungeons and Dragons compelled a teenager to describe his friends murdering somebody?
> 
> ...




Yeah, I've kind of learned to expect ignorance from other people on this subject, so the prosecutor's arguments don't surprise me.  I think part of the reason that no one has mentioned a product by name is because anyone who so much as flips through the pages of almost any RPG book is going to think its pretty innocuous.  This book may not be.  I mean, right off the bat, Wizards has to put out a press release distancing themselves from it.

Again, after Gwendolyn's post, I have no idea what is going to be included in this book.  Is it raunchy?  Is it tasteful?  Is it tongue in cheek?  I don't know.


----------



## Gothmog (May 1, 2003)

Originally posted by Heirodule:


> Yes, and look how its made you blase about sexuality being exposed to kids.




Blase?  Hardly.  I am not the kind of guy who goes looking for porn, and I treat sex as something sacred between two people who love each other.

However, if I were to be blase about something, I'd rather it be sex than violence.


----------



## Pielorinho (May 1, 2003)

Pielorinho said:
			
		

> *There may be good arguments against this book (although I've not yet heard them).*




Actually, Seasong's post came in while I was writing this.  After reading his post, I take it back:  NOW I've heard some good arguments against it.  If it's going to be a bunch of nekkid women being the objects of lust, if it ends up being "let's drool over faerie girls," then it sounds kinda lame.

Make the product challenging and interesting -- make it cover something beyond girlie pinups with pointy ears -- and you may have a good product.  But if it's just photoshopped traditional softcore, I'll be disappointed in y'all.

Daniel


----------



## Artimoff (May 1, 2003)

Pielorinho said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Huh?  I'll be surprised if you can show me a single article in a major news outlet that mentions, by name, a single D20/OGL product.  Much less an article ABOUT a D20/OGL product.
> 
> Daniel *




I remember the FoxNews review of the D&D movie. It had about 3 of the 10 paragraphs devoted to the movie and 7 devoted to the upcomming 3rd edition. The reviewer had nothing to say but good things about the game, although I can't say the same about the movie. 

Oh yeah, the topic...

Sex is bad. Mmmnkay.


----------



## seasong (May 1, 2003)

Pielorinho said:
			
		

> Actually, Seasong's post came in while I was writing this.  After reading his post, I take it back:  NOW I've heard some good arguments against it.  If it's going to be a bunch of nekkid women being the objects of lust, if it ends up being "let's drool over faerie girls," then it sounds kinda lame.



I'm hoping that the quality of the ad copy is also an indicator of its accuracy .

Now that I've reviewed the ad copy, I can say the other stuff I wanted to say:

1. I would love to see a _Tournaments, Fairs and Taverns_ treatment of seduction, romance, royal affairs, high court "back room trades", prostitutes, sex magic, intrigues, and so on. I'm pretty sure this book isn't that, however. It's not the sort of thing that has a focus on illustrations, but on meaty research.

2. I would also love to see a Kenneth Hite-like treatment of putting romance, love, dalliances, children and other such "lighter side" sex topics into ordinary roleplaying. Something that gave me rules for the tête-a-tête between knight and lady. I'm pretty sure this book isn't that, either.

3. I wouldn't _mind_ seeing a book on interpreting fetishism and S&M into a game system framework, although it is difficult for me to see how that needs rules mechanics. I was joking about rules for subdual damage with a flail - I don't want to see that.

4. I also wouldn't mind seeing a slim volume of seduction rules, or an expansion of the combat-oriented magic items of D&D into the item enhancements the nobility would _really_ commission if magic existed. Some discussion of how to incorporate this stuff into a game would not go amiss, either.

5. There's plenty of things this book could be, that would be cool and neat and sweet. I just can't tell from the ad copy .


----------



## Bendris Noulg (May 1, 2003)

Gothmog said:
			
		

> However, if I were to be blase about something, I'd rather it be sex than violence.



Here here!


----------



## MerakSpielman (May 1, 2003)

Gothmog said:
			
		

> *Originally posted by Heirodule:
> 
> Blase?  Hardly.  I am not the kind of guy who goes looking for porn, and I treat sex as something sacred between two people who love each other.
> 
> However, if I were to be blase about something, I'd rather it be sex than violence. *



Agreed. 

But then, I do not view sex as some sort sin or as something that is somehow "dirty." Sex _can_ be dangerous, granted, but despite all the dangers, I would still rather my children run around having sex than run around waving guns around.

It's natural for kids to be curious about sex. It is the parent's obligation to explain to them about what it is and the dangers involved. At the very least teach them "good touch, bad touch."  Even very young children are regularly abused, partially because their parents were so afraid to have them learn that sex existed at all that the poor kids didn't understand what was being done to them and that it was wrong. I think children need more and earlier sex education to prevent them from being harmed and abused by sickos.

If your four year old gets into your BoEF (or any other adult material) it should be looked at as an _opportunity_ to explain these things that they are so obviously already curious about. If it makes the parent uncomfortable, well tough, that's parenthood. Wouldn't you rather they hear it from your mouth and in your words than from other kids, who likely don't know what they're talking about?


----------



## CMG57 (May 1, 2003)

> Considering one person in this thread has been critical thus far, I am confused where this "uproar" is.




Since there are no less than four separate discussions on this topic, I chose to post my support and thoughts of this product in this thread as it seemed to have the most mature discussion at the time.  As to where the uproar is, it appears to be in every thread related to the BoEF.

Calye


----------



## KDLadage (May 1, 2003)

*CMG57*: having witnessed the flame-fest that was the FATAL fiasco of RPGNet...

...having been in Singapore when an American recieved six lashes of a cane...

...having been in San Diego when the Rodney King Riots took over Los Angeles...

...and so on, I would have to say that our defintions of "_uproar_" differ slightly.


----------



## EricNoah (May 1, 2003)

Hey there, folks, some reminders and warnings for all of you:  

You are not to drag religion or politics into this discussion.  That will probably be hard for some of you.  But don't do it.  I don't want to read any more posts about the "moral minority" or "I detest Ms. Clinton" or anything like that.  

You are not to make personal attacks, on each other or on the producers/authors of this project.  I know this has been hard for some of you. It's hard to understand how someone can hold the exact oposite opinion to yours and still be a reasonable, thinking, worthwhile human being.  But get used to it, it's the only way we're going to get along around here.  I don't want to read any more comments like "you're narrow-minded" or "try discussing this in an intelligent manner" (implication: you're not doing so) or anything like that. 

Suggested alternatives -- say what *you* think, what *you* feel, but don't say what *others* should think or feel, and leave the blaming, accusations and the whole "why are you people so stupid" attitude behind.  

Thanks to the many posters who have attempted to participate in these emotionally-charged discussions in a very pleasant, mature manner.


----------



## Psion (May 1, 2003)

Bendris Noulg said:
			
		

> *Here here! *




Where, where?

Or perhaps you meant _hear, hear!_?

[/pet peeve]


----------



## WizarDru (May 1, 2003)

One thing keeps coming to my mind, here.  Dragons, apparently, sleep around.  I mean, if Bruce Cordell were to have his way, they'll mate with anything with a pulse (take a look at Bastion of Broken Souls).  It would be rather interesting to see a write-up of how they approach that sort of thing.  3E has provided a large body of half-dragons and other templated creatures that could use a little discussion, if only from the 'how do the genetics of this work' to 'how do dragons approach relations with other creatures, why do they do it so often, and do they have other goals in mind?'

By the same token, though I wouldn't want a discussion about it, Half-Orcs are right there, in the core.  The unspoken assumption is that, generally, they are the products of a non-consenual coupling, isn't it?  Maybe that should be represented differently, and possibly presented in a different light.

I'm not really sure what I think of the book, per se, but I think there are plenty of topics in that light that could be addressed, if handly properly.

I think the real issue here is the press release was put out to blatantly manipulate the online fan-base.  It has suceeded in generating talk about the product, certainly, but I think it may have also soured some folks on the actual product sight unseen.  Whether it will share space with our XXXenophile collections and Book of Vile Darkness or not will depend on the content.  Hearing that Gwen Kestrel is involved gives it a few points back from what it's lost out of the gate.  I will wait and see.


----------



## Bendris Noulg (May 1, 2003)

Psion said:
			
		

> [/pet peeve]


----------



## Harlock (May 1, 2003)

MerakSpielman said:
			
		

> *But then, I do not view sex as some sort sin or as something that is somehow "dirty."*




I wanted to point out that sex being "dirty" is probably not the reason all people are objecting to this book.  In fact, I think the reason I object to the book at this point is because I view sex as sacrosanct.  Will the book cover that aspect of human sexuality?  Based on the ridiculous press release that hardly leaves it open for a mature and candid look at sex rather than some sophomoric bondage elf fest with nudie pictures.  I hope I am wrong.  At any rate, if this is not a bondage-filled fetish fantasy with blood and boobs, as it were, I'll likely not pick it up based on the cheap publicity stunt that press release may prove to be.  Damned if they do, and damned if they don't you say?  Why, yes, and as it's my dollar, I'll spend it how I please.  As will you, I hope.  

If you want to support this type of book and do not feel that a misleading, inflammatory press release is irresonsible, then I honestly encourage you to support this book.  I'm not trying to pick on you MerakSpielman, yours was simply the last post I read, and I wanted to let some of the more vocal folks know that blanket statements in this discussion serve no purpose but to infuriate and do not lend themselves to healthy discussion.  

Saying someone who wants this book is dirty, wrong, lewd or base is an outrageous accusation.  Saying someone who doesn't want this book is pro-violence, puritanical, uptight and sexually repressed is an equally absurd allegation.  Both sides think they are right.  Are minds being changed here or are we simply feeling goaded into having to defend our belief system by proving the inferiority of other peoples thinking rather than simply stating our beliefs and moving on?  

Also, I'd really love to see more than one post from the author we know about.  If this is a mature and responsible look at sex, please elaborate and also, please explain what it is exactly we were supposed to get from that now infamous press release.  Was it simply a marketing ploy?  Do you think it wholly responsible or representative of this tome?  Thanks.

EDIT: Ah, Eric posted while I was typing.  Thanks Eric.  You mods are saints for even letting this topic remain open.  I appreciate you allowing mature discussion of an obviously volatile issue and appluad all the mods of EN World for their dedication and hard work.  Good day ladies and gentlemen.


----------



## Psion (May 1, 2003)

CMG57 said:
			
		

> *Since there are no less than four separate discussions on this topic, I chose to post my support and thoughts of this product in this thread as it seemed to have the most mature discussion at the time.  As to where the uproar is, it appears to be in every thread related to the BoEF.*




Oh, I agree the contraversy is there. It's just that if you look at the content of the thread, there uproar is much more in the realm of "and you better not say any thing bad about it because I want this stuff" rather than an uproar of folks says "ban this stuff."


----------



## MEG Hal (May 1, 2003)

*About the authors and backers...*

I have talked to, done a few meals with and have had business and personal contact with AV and he is a professional and a darn nice person.  I have no issues with his branching out to work on d20 product.  As a new company (Valtar) you have to admit they do have a book that has not been covered yet.

I had the pleasure of meeting Gwen at GAMA this year and was also impressed by her professionalism and friendliness (also Andy Collins), and knowing that these are some of the people working on the book (Andy is not) I feel that if this topic is to be done, I am glad these are some of the people working on it.

No flames, no issues just an interesting idea that is stirring up the pot by some of the leaders in the RPG industry.


----------



## The Grumpy Celt (May 1, 2003)

Just a few points and a question…

First, no gaming book has universal use. The three main books, the “Player’s Handbook,” the “Dungeon Masters Guide” and the “Monster Manual,” are the only three essential books, assuming it is a D&D game. Therefore, for example, not every one uses the “Secret College of Necromancy” or the “Forgotten Realms Campaign Settings,” even though those are well-written and useful books. Asserting that a book must be used by everyone is a specious assertion deliberately meant to cloud the real issues.

Secondly, sexuality has figured in games in the past (a statement made from personal experience: one of my player characters, with the assistance of another player character, ran a brothel between adventures), from DM’s winging it to people using the net-book of “Carnal Knowledge.”

Thirdly, the book will likely be a commercial success based solely on the sexual content and the controversy (such things sell like hot cakes).

Fourth, it will not damage the hobby or industry. What with the war on terrorism, the economy and other issues, people have better things to do with their time than kill D&D over a sex book. Nor is the fact that it is sexual in nature overwhelmingly damning. White Wolf has outright published material on necrophilia. If the hobby and industry can handle horny, sadomasochistic vampires then it can handle (pardon the expression) elf cleavage.

That said, how much actual active tabletop game use do you think this book will get? 

At the risk of being blunt, (and admittedly without seeing the book) it seems likely it will get the same use as an issue of Hustler or a book of Kevin Taylor art. That is to say, personal and private use.

It simply seems unlikely that this book will find anything like the game use of even “Secret College of Necromancy” let alone the “Forgotten Realms Campaign Settings.”

Even in the game with the brothel (which the GM disliked as he was uptight and wanted to run a mostly clerics and paladins game but humored Ian and I with the house of ill repute) the sexuality took place “off stage,” so to speak. Seduction rolls were sometimes made, and two characters were quite active (proactive even), but the discussions were never graphic. At one point, a husband a wife joined the group and their characters were also sexually active – but again, the discussions were never graphic.

If you are actually aiming to broaden the horizons of gamers and to make them confront personal hypocrisy, you will probably be disappointed.

By comparison, Madonna has spent two decades doing that and while her work is a commercial success, she is widely despised.


----------



## Harlock (May 1, 2003)

Love the sig Grumpy Celt.  Yeah, it's off topic but heck, a little humor in this festival of debate was what I needed.  Thanks!


----------



## Lord Ravinous (May 1, 2003)

> BelenUmeria:
> Second, how will you keep this material away from kids? It will be impossible to keep gaming material out of the hands of children. Many 18 year old high school students play with kids of younger age. I am certain that they will see no trouble in excepting the money of friends to buy the DnD porn book.




I don't find this as being a big problem, cause if a kid wants porn, and he has an 18yr. old friend thats willin' to buy him the stuff, I'm sure he(or she) would be more likely request sumthin' a bit more mainstream. I mean, would you (as a 15yr. old kid) rather spend $8 on a Penthouse, or $20-$25 on a D&D supplement w/ boobies in it ( I can say boobies right?).

Uh-oh *hides face because he knows the price for Penthouse*


----------



## MerakSpielman (May 1, 2003)

Lord Ravinous said:
			
		

> *
> I can say boobies right?).
> *




Of course. It's a kind of bird.

Just like an ass is a pack animal.

And a  is a rooster.


And they don't get filtered out, do they?  


edit: Took out my equivelent for a cat because it DIDN'T get filtered, and I thought it would. I just can't look at that particular word and think "cat."


----------



## machine (May 1, 2003)

Squirrel Nutkin said:
			
		

> *To Whom it May Concern at Hasbro and WotC,
> 
> While many of the threads about Dungeons & Dragons on this board have been positive. I felt a need to speak out in opposition.
> 
> ...




<sniff, sniff>  I smell a troll.


----------



## MeepoTheMighty (May 1, 2003)

Lord Ravinous said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I don't find this as being a big problem, cause if a kid wants porn, and he has an 18yr. old friend thats willin' to buy him the stuff, I'm sure he(or she) would be more likely request sumthin' a bit more mainstream. I mean, would you (as a 15yr. old kid) rather spend $8 on a Penthouse, or $20-$25 on a D&D supplement w/ boobies in it ( I can say boobies right?).
> 
> Uh-oh *hides face because he knows the price for Penthouse* *




Or he'll just go on the internet and get more porn than he knows what to do with, and spend his money on weed instead. I really think parents have a lot more to worry about than whether or not Timmy has seen a book that, from the sounds of it, has less nudity than a Playboy.


----------



## diaglo (May 1, 2003)

MerakSpielman said:
			
		

> *edit: Took out my equivelent for a cat because it DIDN'T get filtered, and I thought it would. I just can't look at that particular word and think "cat." *




a kitty is something you put chips into when gambling.


----------



## Barendd Nobeard (May 1, 2003)

Harlock said:
			
		

> *Based on the ridiculous press release [/SIZE] *



  I think that's the main reason for the current uproar about the book:  A ridiculous press release.

Of course, controversy sells, so it was probably intentional.  But it's still ridiculous.

After the author's post, the book sounds interesting.  But that press release had me putting it on my "no way" list.


----------



## Assenpfeffer (May 1, 2003)

Harlock said:
			
		

> *At any rate, if this is not a bondage-filled fetish fantasy with blood and boobs, as it were, I'll likely not pick it up based on the cheap publicity stunt that press release may prove to be.  Damned if they do, and damned if they don't you say?  Why, yes, and as it's my dollar, I'll spend it how I please.  As will you, I hope.  *




Absolutely.

I think we can all agree that the press release was unprofessional and poorly put together.  The press release (which was _not_ clearly a press release in the original gamingreport article,) makes the product look like an exceptionally tack excecise in pandering.  Valar needs to hire themselves a publicist.

Actually, they could hire _me_.  I can write better ad copy than that.  And I work cheap.  

Based on the comments, here and elsewhere, of some of the people involved, it looks like the book _may_ be tasteful and respectful.  It _is_ possible to do mature material that way, and I see no reason why it can't be done for gaming.

Personally, I'm reserving judgement until I've seen it, or at least until I have more concrete info.

I do take issue with what I see as extreme overreaction from a couple of parties, but that's really another issue, and a conflict of personalities more than something that can be meaningfully debated.  I'm done with the subject.


----------



## Mathew_Freeman (May 1, 2003)

machine said:
			
		

> *
> 
> <sniff, sniff>  I smell a troll. *




No, you smell satire. Entirely different.


----------



## d20Dwarf (May 1, 2003)

MeepoTheMighty said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Or he'll just go on the internet and get more porn than he knows what to do with, and spend his money on weed instead. I really think parents have a lot more to worry about than whether or not Timmy has seen a book that, from the sounds of it, has less nudity than a Playboy. *




I think you and others are looking at this issue in a vacuum. It does no good to compare this book to porn, because it is a gaming book, not a porn book (or is it?). The only relevant comparisons are to other gaming books, and whether or not this book crosses the line compared to them.

If the book can only be defended as "not as bad as Hustler," then I think it's already lost the battle.

It doesn't help that one person arguing for the book already admitted he shows porn to his 4-year-old children.


----------



## machine (May 1, 2003)

Gothmog said:
			
		

> *You are delusional if you think that the BoEF will be the first time little Jimmy sees boobies.   *




ROFLMAO!

<wipes tear from eye>  

Thank you for that laugh.


----------



## MerakSpielman (May 1, 2003)

machine said:
			
		

> *
> 
> <sniff, sniff>  I smell a troll. *




If you want a laugh, read my response to it when I thought he was being serious.


----------



## MerakSpielman (May 1, 2003)

deleted duplicate post.


----------



## Harlock (May 1, 2003)

MerakSpielman said:
			
		

> *deleted duplicate post. *




Some days it just doesn't pay to post, does it Merak?


----------



## mythusmage (May 1, 2003)

Kids and Sex.

Kids are cute, kids are cuddly. Never leave a kid alone with a loaded handgun. For that matter, never leave a kid ignorant of sex, and all that comes with it.

When my nephew was 15 he'd look up certain sites on the Internet. This led to a talk from his father, and the computer getting moved into the family room so mom and dad could keep an eye on his activity. When mom and dad were home, he was a good boy. But when they were gone he'd go looking for sex sites again.

While his then 11 year old sister was home. Naturally, she'd tell mom and dad about her brother's misdeeds, and he'd get into trouble.

Her take on what he was looking at?

"Yuck." (That is a direct quote.)

Yes, the two would watch R rated flicks on the premium channels. Even the ones with full or partial nudity. Their parents' reaction to it? Better they see nudity than run into some predator in a chat room.

Folks, things are changing, and will change. By the time your grandkids have kids of their own I doubt folks will get upset about nekkid folks on kiddie shows, complete with the proper equipment. When a sex scene pops up in an evening program the youngins will likely learn a valuable lesson. Namely, that forcing people to have sex is bad. Sex is only good when both parties are willing participants

One day three boys, an American, a Brit, and a French kid caught a couple doing the two back tango.

The American asked, "What are they doing?"

The Brit replied, "Making love."

The French kid took a look at the scene and added, "Oui, and badly."


----------



## Lord Ravinous (May 1, 2003)

> d20Dwarf:
> It does no good to compare this book to porn, because it is a gaming book, not a porn book (or is it?).




No no, I'm in no way comparing it to porn, I was defending it as not being porn, the guy from Apex, NC said that 15yr old kids would get their 18yr old friends to buy it for them and I simply stated that if they want porn they'll get an $8 porno mag on just go to a friendly website, not buy a D&D book about Sex, Romance, etc. It'd be like askin your friend to buy you a Glamor or Cosmo cause they have sexy advertisements. lol, I just need to shut up before yall think I'm a freak.


----------



## Dr. Harry (May 1, 2003)

CMG57 said:
			
		

> *I am always surprised at the intolerance of gamers.  One might expect those engaged in a hobby  quick to be accused of being bad or evil to be a bit more open minded of things that are different. *




  First, if this reply looks godawful, it is because I made a mistake in my reasoning about how to intersperse my comments with a quote.  Hopefully, it looks okay.

The use of language on this thread has been - I feel- very sloppy, resulting in postings that can be read as extreme, as I read the post that I am quoting.  For all those who do not mean this, please be more careful and remember that we cannot see your faces.

The word 'intolerant' as it is most commonly used should more precisely be stated as "intolerant due to bigotry" or, perhaps, "irrationally intolerant".  In the broader sense, I hope that each person here is "intolerant" of quite a wide number of activities (murder, theft, illegal drug use, and so on).  The questions here should concern where is that line drawn and what are proper responses to take when one feels it has been crossed.  To say that someone opposed to what we have seen of the BoEF is "intolerant" - as it's commonly used - is improper, as it is entirely possible that one could actually have a well-defined and well thought out moral system that happens to find some things objectionable.

One should not be so "open-minded" that one's brain falls out!



			
				CMG57 said:
			
		

> *Games depict every aspect of life: from war to food to sleeping, so why is it that games or game products depicting sex or even nudity cause such an uproar.  ... material cut for space ... The photographs I have seen are professionally done and tasteful.  It matters not  what the photographer does on his own time and with his own career. The fact is that he has produced quality prints for this manual.  The statement that  Anthony Valterra is using his position at Wizards to further this project holds no logic; anyone, yes, anyone may use the OGL/d20 license for their product as long as they follow the requirements listed therein.  ... material cut for space ...
> *




As someone else pointed out, in the cultures where most of the role-playing material is made, takes place, and sells, violence is a social activity and sexuality is a private activity.  Due to this, there is concern about whether this product is being made and marketed for prurient purposes.  I imagine and hope that a book illustrated with photographs that proposed to detail graphically the real effects of fighting with medieval weaponry and dwelling on the pain caused would trigger the same sort of response.  After all, aspects of sexuality exist in a number of places in the game system - in an abstracted fashion, in the same way that fighting is abstracted.  (Although admittedly not to the same degree, but remember the roots of RPG came from wargaming.  If the roots were in sex games, we would not be seeing this response, and also most people posting in this thread would not be here.

My judgment of the photographer's taste is different than yours.  That does not in itself prove that you are wrong in this matter of taste (of course, it doesn't prove you are *right*, either!), but since the photographer's site was specifically cited in the press release, it has already been chosen (by Valar, inc.) as relevant to the discussion.

Finally (and this was not directly addressed by Cayle, but I didn't want to respond ten different times to ten different posts just to up my post count), while it is a form of self-censorship to choose not to buy a product, and to choose not to shop at a store that carries products that I feel are beyond a line I've set for myself, that's a reflection of straightforward ethical responsibility, not some "intolerant" attempt at *imposing* censorship on anyone else.  I reject the idea that I have some responsibility to choose to shop at a store that carries material I find repeelent over shopping at a store that doesn't, just to show I'm not "intolerant".

  Harry


----------



## MerakSpielman (May 1, 2003)

d20Dwarf said:
			
		

> *
> It doesn't help that one person arguing for the book already admitted he shows porn to his 4-year-old children. *




Excuse me? I said no such thing, and I rather resent you putting words in my mouth. 

I said that if your kid gets into your porn, you should take the opportunity to explain some of the facts of life, lest they start making things up on their own. Likewise, if your four year old somehow ends up seeing an absurdly violent TV show or movie, it should be taken as an opportunity to explain about what violence is and that TV isn't real.

In summary, _whatever_ your child is exposed to, you should be there as a parent to keep them from misunderstanding what is going on.

I leave whatever moral slant you put into your explanations up to you and your personal ethical code. Like Eric said, that is really none of my business.


----------



## SemperJase (May 1, 2003)

MerakSpielman said:
			
		

> *
> I would still rather my children run around having sex than run around waving guns around. *




This is a false dilemma. I would not want my children doing either of them.

Call me a puritan, but is a book on erotic sex going to contribute to D&D? Are gamers so unimaginative or lacking in experience that we need to learn from a book how to do it? 

The D&D stereotype says gamers lack social skills and have difficulty interacting with other people. This book only confirms that type. Rules for adding erotica? Please. 

What's next, D20 rules for a hosting a dinner party?


----------



## Taren Nighteyes (May 1, 2003)

SemperJase said:
			
		

> This is a false dilemma. I would not want my children doing either of them.
> 
> Call me a puritan, but is a book on erotic sex going to contribute to D&D? Are gamers so unimaginative *or lacking in experience * that we need to learn from a book how to do it?
> 
> ...




ummm....if you would believe the stereo-types, the answer is yes - need instruction booklet 

GAMERS ARE SOCIAL RETARDS!

Taren Nighteyes


----------



## MerakSpielman (May 1, 2003)

SemperJase said:
			
		

> *
> 
> This is a false dilemma. I would not want my children doing either of them.*




Not really a false dilemma. I imagine my kids growing up and doing one. Then I imagine them growing up and doing the other. Envisioning them with guns bothers me more. Try it. Which vision bothers you more?



> *Call me a puritan, but is a book on erotic sex going to contribute to D&D? Are gamers so unimaginative or lacking in experience that we need to learn from a book how to do it? *




Clearly you are not the target audience for this product. You are under no obligation to purchase it. 



> *The D&D stereotype says gamers lack social skills and have difficulty interacting with other people. This book only confirms that type. Rules for adding erotica? Please. *





Just how many minds do you think it's going to change? Nobody outside of the RPG community is even likely to hear of it, or if they do, they won't really remember it a few months later. Even better, they could make a REAL uproar! D&D would take off again, as soon as it started to get a bit taboo again.



> *What's next, D20 rules for a hosting a dinner party? *




D20 Guide to Party Etiquette. Interesting. Does the paladin lie and compliment the bad wine, just to be polite? I might take a look at it.


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## mythusmage (May 1, 2003)

SemperJase said:
			
		

> *What's next, D20 rules for a hosting a dinner party? *




Martha Stewart d20!

Today, Halloween decorating tips for the lich in your life.


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## Harlock (May 1, 2003)

MerakSpielman said:
			
		

> *Not really a false dilemma. I imagine my kids growing up and doing one. Then I imagine them growing up and doing the other. Envisioning them with guns bothers me more. Try it. Which vision bothers you more?*




That's an interesting excercise and based on how you presented it you expect most people would have the same feelings.  I for one am much more comfortable envisioning my child with a gun than having sex.  He's three, that may be part of it.  Also, it depends on the type of sex one imagines.  Is it consentual between two adults?  Is it in the bonds of marrigae, or even sealing in a Temple?  Some people look at sex and say icky.  Some people look at guns and say icky.  I look at guns and say, "Oh, a tool."  It can be used to harm others, but it can also be used to sustain life through hunting, defend, or just for the simple pleasure of target practice in a competitive or non-competitive environment.  I can see a gun being less destructive than sex in a lot of ways.  I can see sex being more pleasurable than sport shooting in a lot of ways.  However, it doesn't work that way for everyone.  I think your invitation to "try it" overlooked environmental, social and personal biases and maybe wasn't a great example.


----------



## MerakSpielman (May 1, 2003)

Indeed, Harlock, and thanks for pointing it out. Both sex and firearms can be used in both appropriate and inapproprate ways.

I was envisioning worst-case scenarios for both of them. I.e., sex that results in both a STD and an unwanted pregnancy, and gun use that involves the accidental death of an innocent friend.

Oh, and I have to use my imagination too. My son's only 16 months old.

I might also add, Harlock, that your posts are some of the more intelligent and well written ones in the debate. Keep it up!


----------



## Kestrel (May 1, 2003)

I have no use for the book myself, but I will defend the right to publish it.  I have no desire to roleplay sex with the guys that I play games with.  I'll do that kind of roleplaying with my fiance 

Also want to throw out some applause to Merak.  I've never seen someone so tolerant and stable-minded on a message board 

Bravo!


----------



## d20Dwarf (May 1, 2003)

MerakSpielman said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Excuse me? I said no such thing, and I rather resent you putting words in my mouth.
> 
> ...




Sorry if I misrepresented you. I shouldn't have perpetuated the comments in the first place, since this isn't the place to discuss such things. I will say, however, that responsible parents will not have porn in a house with children, and leave it at that.


----------



## MEG Hal (May 1, 2003)

MerakSpielman said:
			
		

> Not really a false dilemma. I imagine my kids growing up and doing one. Then I imagine them growing up and doing the other. Envisioning them with guns bothers me more. Try it. Which vision bothers you more?




Both bother me immensely (due to my kids ages), I have a 2 and 3 year old and:
1) Use a gun in my profession
2) Deal with sex offenders in my profession

But I am also not opposed to this book.  Will it be on a shelf where my kids can get to it-nope
Is my gun someplace where my kids can get to it-nope

My children do not even no I carry a gun ( I carry concealed) and until they are older it will remain to be that way.

IMHO personal opinion (not MEG's), it is the responsibility of the parent if they have a book they feel is not suitable for minors make sure minors will not look at it, if you have a weapon, make sure the minors can not get to it (safe, lockbox etc...).  I am not stating not to teach children about these issues, it is just something I will talk to them about when we are ready.

*So buy the book, do not buy the book, but be responsible if you have youngins' around.  I have respect for the team that is putting this together so I will take a look at the book and see what I think when it is here.


----------



## Ancalagon (May 1, 2003)

I'm just confused as to why the press released led us to believe Valtera was the author when he is not.  

Sure, creating controversy to atract attention is an old tactic, but that was downright missinformation.

As to the product itself, I will reserve judgement for when I see it.

Ancalagon


----------



## MerakSpielman (May 1, 2003)

Ancalagon said:
			
		

> *I'm just confused as to why the press released led us to believe Valtera was the author when he is not.
> 
> Sure, creating controversy to atract attention is an old tactic, but that was downright missinformation.
> 
> ...




But their lawyers will say the release never actually _said_ he was the author. Just the photographer. The release also made the book sound like it was Penthouse for D&D, with which Gwen here, one of the actual authors, seems to disagree.

So, yes, it was a pretty cheap ploy. They picked the most contraversial person on the team and talked only about them. They put up a like to that person's most contraversial work.

This was done pretty much ONLY to generate the kinds of discussions we're having here. The more contraversy that surrounds a product, in general, the better it sells. Simply by debating the appropriateness of the book, we are fueling its sales. More people are reading this thread than are posting in it. That sounds like free advertising to me, eh?

Valtera has probably done some pretty mild work, too. It wasn't linked to the press release, because it would have done little to nothing to generate discussion about the product.

People in the porn business can and do more respectible work. The new director for the Harry Potter movies (the old one backed out) used to direct porn movies, for instance (not that there wasn't any hooplah about that). Of course, they didn't want the publicity, so it wasn't mentioned in their press releases.

There's always _somebody_ on the deveopment team for any media (book, film, whatever) who's done some [fringe? adult? questionable?] work in the past.  In this case, they chose to advertise the fact.

And we're all paying perfectly into their hands, _especially_ the naysayers. Yes, those of you opposing the book are doing _exactly_ what the publishers wanted you to. Without you, there would be no discussion, no debate, no publicity.


----------



## mistergone (May 1, 2003)

What I haven't seen yet is an explaination why a book like this is needed. I've seen a lot of people say they want to see it. But what real purpose does it serve? How vital are rules for sex in your roleplaying game?

Now, I know, a lot of gaming books are released that are not needed, per se, but understand that I feel the same way about them. However, I usually hear reasons as to why they might be needed. In this case, I haven't really heard any.


----------



## Assenpfeffer (May 1, 2003)

MerakSpielman said:
			
		

> *And we're all paying perfectly into their hands, especially the naysayers. Yes, those of you opposing the book are doing exactly what the publishers wanted you to. Without you, there would be no discussion, no debate, no publicity. *




Who says the naysayers aren't all on the Valar payroll, eh?

EDIT:  Actually, that's a great marketing idea that I'll use if I ever publish my own product - find some innocuous reference somewhere in the text, blow it all out of proportion and plaster every gaming forum I can find about how it's going to destroy the hobby, think of the children, boycott now, etc. etc. all under a variety of bogus pseudonyms.


----------



## WizarDru (May 1, 2003)

mistergone said:
			
		

> *Now, I know, a lot of gaming books are released that are not needed, per se, but understand that I feel the same way about them. However, I usually hear reasons as to why they might be needed. In this case, I haven't really heard any. *




Several were mentioned above as possiblities, and in other threads.  Whether or not you find them useful is another thought entirely.  I thought I presented a couple, and there have been others, as well.

For example:


Many cultures tied sex or abstinence to magical powers or purity.  No rules exist for this.
Spells exist that use Vile components, but none that involve sexual components or effects.  With several creatures, such as nymphs and succubi, sexual powers are intimated, but not expanded upon.  
Reproductive issues, and consequences of sex.  Half-dragons abound, it seems, in 3E.  The stork didn't bring those kids.  The same with Half-orcs and half-elves.
Speaking of half-breeds, why are there no half-dwarves, or half-gnomes/half-halfings?  And why ARE there half-ogres?
Many ancient cultures held significance in the menustration cycle, and fertility was an important aspect of both magic and power.  Rules and discussion of this topic would have merit.

I could go on, but you get the idea.  There are lots of avenues of potential discussion, here.  Will this book cover that?  I have no idea.  But I could see where it could contain useful or interesting ideas.


----------



## Spatula (May 1, 2003)

d20Dwarf said:
			
		

> *Thrive? Comic books are dying on the shelves as an industry, it's not nearly as vibrant as it once was. The decline coincided with the rise in the number of independent, edgy, ULTRA violent, ULTRA sexual comic books.
> 
> Whether or not that was the cause of the decline, I can't say, so don't go accusing me of post hoc ergo propter hoc.  I'm just saying that it's possible that this sort of content DOES hurt sales in a primarily escapist market, whether it be aimed at children or adults. *



The last "boom" period in comics coincided with an increase in ultra-violence and near-naked pinup-posed babes.  So did the pandering hurt or help sales?  IMO, it probably helped some, but the reasons behind the boom didn't have much to do with the actual content of the books.  The US comic industry is dying, has been dying for a long time now, because comics were banished from newstands and for the most part can now only be found in specialty shops.  And the price of mainstream comics has caught up with inflation.  And people have a lot more choices for escapist distractions available to them these days.  I don't think the content of independant books aimed at mature readers has much to do with it.  Most comic buyers aren't even aware of the independant books, regardless of their content.  A lot of comic shops still don't carry much of anything outside of the big publishers, again, regardless of content.

And I think it's likely the RPG market is hurting (compared to its heyday in the 80's) for similar reasons.  Loss of access (can you still buy RPG books in Toys'R'Us or Kaybee?).  Increased prices (due to higher production values and lower print runs).  Competition from video games and other entertainment.

"Edgy" material in any entertainment market isn't going to hurt that market.  By the very nature of the material, it's going to be on the fringe and most buyers won't even be aware of it.  Even if they were, the existance of edgy books/movies/games isn't going to stop people from consuming the mainstream books/movies/games that they do enjoy.


----------



## Bendris Noulg (May 1, 2003)

mistergone said:
			
		

> What I haven't seen yet is an explaination why a book like this is needed.



Why not?

Seriously, the genre (sub-genre?) of Erotic Fantasy has been around for a long time: Conan, Den, Velajo and Frazetta art, Red Sonya...  Even Xena, despite being scrubbed for WGN TV, has more than a few episodes that seemed more aptly placed in the pages of Heavy Metal than on TV (especially if you've seen some of those uncut versions...  Yowza...).  Personally, it was indeed Erotic Fantasy that got me into D&D to begin with.

Generally, these rules would support that aspect of the genre.  In addition, the rules regarding pregnancy, birth control, and the like will also relate to the flip-side: The reprocutions of such acts, from STDs to illegitament children.

In addition, there are other elements: The benefits of sex-slaves and/or harems (a new spin on Leadership?), sex magic, the creative chakra, etc.  For instance, was the orgy scene in Conan the Barbarian just a frollicing of wanton lust, or was Thulsa Doom channeling the energy into some greater working?

Sure, a DM could make his own rules, but this is more time taken away from development of setting and plot (which is rarely a good thing), or he can simply be arbitrary about it (which can easily bring complaints from the players regardless of how fair the DM is being about it because there are no rules for it).

For instance, last night, my wife and I had a long talk about how, in 3E, the chainmail bikini is indeed a viable option (based on the fact that high Dex and magic would provide protection, optionally along with Defense Bonuses and Defense Rolls, with the chainmail bikini being nothing more than decoration).  People will still decry such an outfit even though such is far more viable in 3E than it was in any edition.  This led on to a thourough look through my good ol' Heavy Metal and Richard Corben collection, going over how, even though the actual act of sex isn't _often_ portrayed (disclaimer: outside of the Druuna books, of course), it was often occuring.  Reason being?  Much like the justification for the whole-sale slaughter of entire races in D&D is based on "it's not the real world", so too is the idea that sex need not be taboo, shameful or sinful in such a world.

For instance, there was some complaint about a prestige class in BoVD requiring a sexual ritual, insinuating that the book implied that sex was evil.  It seemed all too easy for the complainers to overlook the fact that the requirement was a "humiliating" sexual ritual, which is definately related but by no means the same thing.

This appears indeed to be the angle that this book is aiming for, recognizing an entire facet of the fantasy genre with rules to support it, making these rules in a manner to allow them to be ported into a standard game (in total or piece-meal), and likely as an OGL product rather than hanging it's "image" on the d20 logo.

I _think_ that's part of the reasoning behind what Anthony is implying when he indicates "compatible" in the press release.  The d20 logo indicates, more or less, some degree of compatibility in that certain key elements of balance (character creation, leveling, etc.) are identicle to the Core Rules (and thus everything else must be written to match well enough to be deemed "balanced"), while an OGL-only product can indeed break from that standard without any justification (assuming the product is self-balanced, else today's fan base will demand a certain degree of explaination).  So perhaps, just this once, AV let that "slip" as a matter of indicating that, while an independantly produced OGL Game, it will be written with the same numerical standard many of us have become familiar with (either as the default we use or as the standard the we home-brew/alter d20 material from).

Of course, this assumes that it's OGL, not OGL/d20STL, as the press release pointed at the OGL several times but never mentions the d20STL at all.


----------



## Squirrel Nutkin (May 1, 2003)

d20Dwarf said:
			
		

> *I will say, however, that responsible parents will not have porn in a house with children, and leave it at that. *



How true! Why, when I was a little kid I used to look at my dad's copies of Playboy and Penthouse (he didn't hide 'em very well) and just look at me now. A raving sex maniac with absolutely no sense of decency...


----------



## diaglo (May 1, 2003)

Squirrel Nutkin said:
			
		

> *A raving sex maniac with absolutely no sense of decency...  *




you said it, not me.


----------



## Skaros (May 1, 2003)

mistergone said:
			
		

> *What I haven't seen yet is an explaination why a book like this is needed. I've seen a lot of people say they want to see it. But what real purpose does it serve? How vital are rules for sex in your roleplaying game?
> 
> Now, I know, a lot of gaming books are released that are not needed, per se, but understand that I feel the same way about them. However, I usually hear reasons as to why they might be needed. In this case, I haven't really heard any. *




One point on this.  There's no particular need for anyone to provide a good reason is there?  At least pertinent to this discussion.  If the subject were about whether such a supplement had enough demand to make it successful, this would be an important question.

However, if there isn't a desire for it, I suppose it won't sell well, and that will take care of itself.

Skaros


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## Delgar (May 1, 2003)

WooHoo! Elf porn is hot, Dwarf porn is not!

Next we'll have:

Dragon Kama Sutra - Over 500 new positions you can try with your dragon mate. (Warning: we're not liable for any crushed, humans, elves, dwarves etc.)

Eric Noahs Guide to How to have a Half-Fiend Love Child - Step by step instructions on how to seduce a fiend!

Flumph love - We know you love em but we'll show you how you can REALLY LOVE them.

Delgar


----------



## Ghostwind (May 1, 2003)

Delgar said:
			
		

> *Flumph love - We know you love em but we'll show you how you can REALLY LOVE them.*




That was one visual I did not need.


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## d20Dwarf (May 1, 2003)

So many hanging, fleshy appendages, so little time....


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## Henry (May 1, 2003)

mistergone said:
			
		

> *What I haven't seen yet is an explaination why a book like this is needed. I've seen a lot of people say they want to see it. But what real purpose does it serve?*




To me, this question in a way answers itself, because if there is a demand for such a book, then it will sell, thus justifying its existance. Many things justify a published work: Profit, Pride in one's work, public interest, desire to spread a message, or simply love of a subject.

That said, I understand the position you gave in the second paragraph - I was pointing out that this particular work may be a combination of the above reasons, it's just that public interest may not be one of them (though public interest is necessary to avoid a profit loss).


----------



## JRRNeiklot (May 1, 2003)

I don't see what the big deal is.  If you don't like it, don't buy it.  Simple.  No different than bitching about violence and sex on television.  Wake up people, it's YOUR television.  Change the damn channel!

*By people, I mean people in general, who are usually sheep, not the nice folks here!  *


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## Henry (May 1, 2003)

d20Dwarf said:
			
		

> *So many hanging, fleshy appendages, so little time.... *



Kind of reminds me what Robin Williams once said about Sex for an Amoeba: "_It's less complicated for them - they just split in two and say, 'Was it good for me?' Who knows?"_


----------



## MerakSpielman (May 1, 2003)

Generally everybody's sheep except:

1) Yourself
2) The people you know really well
3) People you really agree with.

I'm starting to lean away from the "people are sheep" philosophy, myself.


----------



## rkanodia (May 1, 2003)

About "What purpose does this serve?": I don't expect to buy/use BoEF, but certainly it's going to be a more interesting product than the nineteenth COMPLETE MEGA UBER MUNCHKIN'S GUIDE TO FIFTH LEVEL TRANSMUTATIONS.

About rules adjudication taking the fun out of real life sex: well, there may be a point there.  Lord knows how many days I've wished I could just take ten...


----------



## MerakSpielman (May 1, 2003)

rkanodia said:
			
		

> *
> About rules adjudication taking the fun out of real life sex: well, there may be a point there.  Lord knows how many days I've wished I could just take ten... *




Just take a little extra time and take twenty, dude.


----------



## Maerdwyn (May 1, 2003)

I'm firmly in the "I won't buy it, but don't care if someone else does" camp.  

I will say that I'd be very surprised if my FLGS carried it, as the owner works hard at making the shop a kid-friendly place.

Also, I'm glad that the author is proud to be associated with the book, though I wonder if she is proud of being associated with yesterday's press release, and what it sugested about the nature of her book.


----------



## Psion (May 1, 2003)

*



			One point on this. There's no particular need for anyone to provide a good reason is there?
		
Click to expand...


*
Oh, there certainly is. The publisher should provide potential customers with a reason why they should spend their bucks on this instead of whatever other products are out there. If there is no reason to buy this product over (say) a collection of Royo art, then why buy it?


----------



## Arnwyn (May 1, 2003)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Several were mentioned above as possiblities, and in other threads.  Whether or not you find them useful is another thought entirely.  I thought I presented a couple, and there have been others, as well.
> 
> ...



Thank you, WizarDru, for this great post. I was really wondering what a book like this (either BoEF or the already existing Nymphology) would really be used for. I mean, a *real* use preparing for or during a game session. I couldn't come up with anything (yeah, me and my lack of an imagination) and was going to start a thread on it, but no need now. Your response above gives me some perspective of where a book about "sex in D&D" could be useful. (Now I personally wouldn't buy it, but the examples above do provide actual utility.)

However, based on the (very poor) ad copy, I have a niggling feeling that none of what you mention above will be there in any meaningful terms... 

[Lousy humor] Of course, where is my book on D&D economics, merchants, kingdom building/management, and mass combat? There will be two books about "sex in D&D" for the el-freako gaming groups who want to talk about and roleplay sex with their other male buddies, but one measly pdf discussing economics in Western Europe (and nothing else) that can be used in any group? The injustice! INJUSTICE! [/Lousy humor] Believe me, "Fields of Blood" (<- not pdf) can't come out fast enough.


----------



## Bendris Noulg (May 1, 2003)

arnwyn said:
			
		

> Thank you, WizarDru, for this great post. I was really wondering what a book like this (either BoEF or the already existing Nymphology) would really be used for.



Actually, as a fan of Erotic Fantasy, I've found Nymphology to be a poor product, aimed at humor rather than playability.  Off the top of my head, I think I've "approved" two Feats and a Spell (or is it two Spells and a Feat?).  One Prestige Class _seemed_ suitable with some tweaking, but as a standard practice I keep to Prestige Classes of my own making.

At any rate, I'm hoping BoEF will be a better product; Of course, it's not hard to surpass 1% usability.


----------



## BOZ (May 1, 2003)

Gothmog said:
			
		

> ** New monsters?  If so, I'm kind of having a hard time imagining what they would be like.*




i'm not.


----------



## machine (May 1, 2003)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> *Suggested alternatives -- say what *you* think, what *you* feel, but don't say what *others* should think or feel, and leave the blaming, accusations and the whole "why are you people so stupid" attitude behind.  *




Well said!


----------



## kenjib (May 1, 2003)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> *One thing keeps coming to my mind, here.  Dragons, apparently, sleep around.  I mean, if Bruce Cordell were to have his way, they'll mate with anything with a pulse (take a look at Bastion of Broken Souls).  It would be rather interesting to see a write-up of how they approach that sort of thing.  3E has provided a large body of half-dragons and other templated creatures that could use a little discussion, if only from the 'how do the genetics of this work' to 'how do dragons approach relations with other creatures, why do they do it so often, and do they have other goals in mind?'
> 
> By the same token, though I wouldn't want a discussion about it, Half-Orcs are right there, in the core.  The unspoken assumption is that, generally, they are the products of a non-consenual coupling, isn't it?  Maybe that should be represented differently, and possibly presented in a different light.
> 
> ...




I agree 100%.  I also agree that there are some very useful topics for such a book to cover, and Seasong's excellent post really drove that point home.

However, if the book turns out to be tasteful and useful (which I doubt to be honest -- to many warning signs), I will oppose it just on the ad copy.  There are few things I despise more in life than deceptive hype-driven advertising.  As Harlock says, damned if you do, damned if you don't?  Sure is!  I'm not the one who wrote the ad copy, though, so don't blame me.  As far as I'm concerned they've already painted themselves into a corner from which they can't recover in my eyes.

Also, people seem to draw a dichotomy between sex and violence and try to point it out as some kind of hypocrisy.  I would like to point out then, that the link from the press release which shows examples of the artists' prior works conflates sex and violence.  There is a picture, in an erotic context, of a woman who has overdosed on pills, slit her wrists, and is sitting in a bathtub full of blood.  This is just one of the series'.  The nexus of sex and violence together are far worse than either one independently.  I actually find nothing wrong wrong with content on sexual behavior and the GUCK is fine with me, some immature and sophomoric parts aside, but this ad copy is a far cry from the healthy enjoyment of the wonders of sexual relationships and this is one of the things that the press release used to exemplify what the book will be about.  That's what ad copy does.  That's what ad copy is for.  That's why those links and selling points are in the ad copy.  Sex AND violence.  Not sex OR violence.  Whether or not the book actually ends up containing it, that is what this company has promoted it to contain.

I'd rather my kid first learn about sex as a good thing, not something related to death, violence, and mutilation.  Again, if the book isn't about this stuff, then I'm still bothered by this book, but for different reasons.


----------



## LostSoul (May 1, 2003)

MerakSpielman said:
			
		

> *Generally everybody's sheep except: *




The first step is to realize that you are a sheep, too.  Then you can see it.


----------



## KDLadage (May 1, 2003)

The recent discussion of the future release known as the "Book of Erotic Fantasy"
has me wondering what other sorts of doors and avenues could be opened with the
inevitable release? Is this the gateway product that will convince some hill-billy
slob that it is time to write the "Book of Racial Purity?"

I may be the only one concerned about this, and I may be not quite seeing this for
some socially redeaming quality the authors intend to it serve.

All things considered, I cannot imagine what that value would be.

The right of the authors to produce it, however, is not in question. Consider that
regardless of my thoughts on the topic at hand, I am sure that there are people
out there that will read this book and see it as a set of rules that they have so
longed for. Perhaps I am mistaken and the rules presented will fill some gap that,
lacking another term, needed to filled.


{It is a joke; read the first letter of each line}


----------



## jmucchiello (May 1, 2003)

MerakSpielman said:
			
		

> *Just take a little extra time and take twenty, dude. *



Take 1: Yeah, but then you have all that failure before you succeed.

Take 2: Yeah, but then it still only lasts 2 minutes.  

[runs off]


----------



## Tiefling (May 1, 2003)

Dammit, KDLadage, *I* invented that!


----------



## machine (May 1, 2003)

Tallarn said:
			
		

> *
> 
> No, you smell satire. Entirely different. *




Not always.  

I was gettin' riled up untill I checked out the poster.  Then my eyes were opened and I'd realized I'd taken hook, line, and sinker.

Darn squirrel anyway.


----------



## EricNoah (May 1, 2003)

KDLadage said:
			
		

> *
> The recent discussion
> {It is a joke; read the first letter of each line} *




I don't know what resolution you're at, but the joke doesn't work in 800x600


----------



## coyote6 (May 1, 2003)

MerakSpielman said:
			
		

> *I'm starting to lean away from the "people are sheep" philosophy, myself. *




Goats. We're all goats.

Or perhaps muskrats.


----------



## KDLadage (May 1, 2003)

Tiefling said:
			
		

> *Dammit, KDLadage, I invented that!  *




I only steal-ur, I mean borrow from the best!


----------



## KDLadage (May 1, 2003)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I don't know what resolution you're at, but the joke doesn't work in 800x600  *




Curses! Foiled again!

Addendum: Eric, I normally work at 1280x1024 and I just dropped down to 800x600 to see what it looked like, and *MAN*, how can you work like that!?


----------



## machine (May 1, 2003)

MerakSpielman said:
			
		

> *
> 
> If you want a laugh, read my response to it when I thought he was being serious.  *




I read your post.  I have to say you weren't alone.  I darn near let loose with a vitriolic response.


----------



## Pirate Queen Eliza (May 1, 2003)

*BoEF Artist Starts Own Thread on the Subject...*

Ahoy!

My name is Eliza Gauger, and I'm one of the artists who's doing the photo manipulations for the Book of Erotic Fantasy.  I may also be modelling for one or two characters; we'll see.

I'm a forum dork, although my usual digs are the SeaGoth forum over at EZboard.  I'm also a longtime, second-generation gamer and third generation sci-fi nerd.  I must confess that I prefer WoD to D&D, although I learned to read using the oldschool Dieties and Demigods and Moster Manual.  So I have a little background with the genre, although assuredly not as much as some of you.  I have an interest in maintaining communication directly with you guys, because I hate misinformation with a passion.

Firstly, I'd like to dispell any lingering doubts about this book's reality.  It does indeed exist in potentia (we're at the content-generating stage right now), and will be published in October.  

Secondly, let me make it clear that I am not one of the writers and have only seen snippets of the fluff text.  I am working on many of the images, however.

Thirdly, to all the people who are ranting and raving about how this book is going to degrade the d20 system and how disgusting and pornographic it will be and blah blah:     You don't know anything about the contents of this book except what the press release has told you, which is pretty much zilch.  And we all know that press releases are less than reliable.  Their purpose is to create buzz to keep everyone on the subject for the months between the press release and the actual product, so it stays fresh in your minds.  So do everyone a favor and try to exercise a little self control and common sense.  When you actually see the content from the actual book, then you'll be able to get all growly without being completely baseless.  KTHX.

A few factoids for you folks:

1. Regardless of Valterra's sexual practices or Hypnox's website, *this is not a fetish book.*  There will be some kink content, but kink falls under the catagory of "sexuality", whether you like it or not.

2. There will be no "roll for  size" tables or anything of the sort.  I'm not sure why I even have to say this, but people seem to be fixated on it.

3. Aside from the things I've already told you, I am not intimately familiar with the books content yet, myself.  I plan to become more familiar with it this Friday, when we will be having a company meeting.  







...phew.  Questions?  Bueller?  


(edited to correct heinous spelling errors)


----------



## BrooklynKnight (May 1, 2003)

can you post some of the... um... PG13 rated photos on here for us yet?


----------



## Pirate Queen Eliza (May 1, 2003)

ArthurQ said:
			
		

> *can you post some of the... um... PG13 rated photos on here for us yet? *




Hee hee hee!  No, not yet.  I'm glad you're interested.


----------



## Piratecat (May 1, 2003)

I just merged Eliza's and Gwendolyn's threads.


----------



## d20Dwarf (May 1, 2003)

*Re: BoEF Artist Starts Own Thread on the Subject...*



			
				Pirate Queen Eliza said:
			
		

> *Thirdly, to all the people who are ranting and raving about how this book is going to degrade the d20 system and how disgusting and pornographic it will be and blah blah:     You don't know anything about the contents of this book except what the press release has told you,  *




Question: If the press release is spreading misinformation, who's to blame for the spread of misinformation?


----------



## Pirate Queen Eliza (May 1, 2003)

Squirrel Nutkin said:
			
		

> *To Whom it May Concern at Hasbro and WotC,
> 
> While many of the threads about Dungeons & Dragons on this board have been positive. I felt a need to speak out in opposition. *




That was a beautiful piece of parody, Squirrel.  Beautiful.


----------



## rkanodia (May 1, 2003)

jmucchiello said:
			
		

> *Take 1: Yeah, but then you have all that failure before you succeed.
> 
> Take 2: Yeah, but then it still only lasts 2 minutes.
> 
> [runs off] *



Seriously.  If your significant other is willing to let you take twenty, you, sir, are a far luckier man than I!


----------



## Pirate Queen Eliza (May 1, 2003)

*Re: Re: BoEF Artist Starts Own Thread on the Subject...*



			
				d20Dwarf said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Question: If the press release is spreading misinformation, who's to blame for the spread of misinformation?  *




Whoever wrote the press release, and I have no idea who that may be.


----------



## Eridanis (May 1, 2003)

Apparently, Ms. Kestrel reads our questions, but can't be bothered to reply to them. Read her condescening comments over at gamingreport:

http://www.gamingreport.com/article.php?sid=8290&mode=thread&order=0

At first, I was in the "they can do what they like, it's a free country, but I won't buy it" camp. But with her condecending attitude, she has lost my respect with lines like "It's really a question of what your interests are and whether you're comfortable with the topic of sex." No, Ms. Kestrel; my comfort with sexual topics has nothing to do with whether I want rules for sex in one's campaign. I can understand if you want to look down on those who don't agree with your point of view, but for the sake of your business' bottom line, you might want to keep your snickers behind your hand.

I have no doubt that some game groups might enjoy adding this book's rules to their game. But please don't look down on those who might prefer to concentrate on politcal, military, or philosophical topics in thier games, and leave their sexual adventures to their interactions in the real world.


----------



## Piratecat (May 1, 2003)

Actually, let's be fair.  She mentioned over at her own bulletin board (and Andy's) that she was having trouble getting through. I have no doubt she'll be back.


----------



## Zappo (May 1, 2003)

Eridanis said:
			
		

> *Apparently, Ms. Kestrel reads our questions, but can't be bothered to reply to them. Read her condescening comments over at gamingreport:
> 
> http://www.gamingreport.com/article.php?sid=8290&mode=thread&order=0
> 
> ...



I've read the post, but I sincerely don't see any condescending attitude. What she's saying in that post is that games with an erotic theme have as much right to exist as any other - now, one might disagree on this, and one might even find the comparison degrading for militar, philosophical, or political games, but that's just one's problem. She isn't looking down on anyone.


----------



## Silver Moon (May 2, 2003)

I just wanted to say that I am extremely impressed with the quality of the discussion on this particular thread.  It is great to see this topic treated in such a serious and mature manner.  Even the "comic relief" posts are well done, adding some needed humor without detracting from the overall discussion.   

As for the topic itself, I personally would not purchase this product, however I find myself agreeing with many of the points on both sides of the issue.


----------



## Tiefling (May 2, 2003)

Eridanis said:
			
		

> *Apparently, Ms. Kestrel reads our questions, but can't be bothered to reply to them. Read her condescening comments over at gamingreport:
> 
> http://www.gamingreport.com/article.php?sid=8290&mode=thread&order=0
> 
> ...




Notice the "what your interests are" part.


----------



## Arcane Runes Press (May 2, 2003)

Eridanis said:
			
		

> *Apparently, Ms. Kestrel reads our questions, but can't be bothered to reply to them. Read her condescening comments over at gamingreport:
> 
> *




What condescending comments?

The _only_ line I can see in there that could be even remotely seen as condescending is the one you quoted, and that's even really reaching. 

The little interview seems perfectly reasoned and reasonable to me. 

There's already enough vitriol being thrown around in regards to this book. No need to find offense in innocent comments. 

Patrick Y.


----------



## Aristotle (May 2, 2003)

I consider myself a moderate liberal. Personal freedoms (speach, individuality, etc) are very dear to me. I've taken part in the administration of some of the largest free adult chatrooms on the 'net (at least in their time). I'm also a gamer... and spend a huge amount of my time involved in game related activity. In other words... I don't personally have an issue with this product. Heck, I might even be considered a prime member of the target audience.

Will I buy it? That depends on how good the product is. I'll apply the same process of review to it that I do any other game book and decide at that time if it belongs on my shelf.


BUT... I find myelf having an issue with the concept of a book on erotic fantasy. The same issue that so many others have. Kids... 

Sure, kids can get "normal porn" much more readily (and at a much lower cover price) than "game porn". Sure, most kids who are old enough to game have already seen erotic artwork or worse. Some of them have probably even experimented with sex. My issue isn't with young teens seeing nudity or even reading sexually explicit stories. My issue is that role playing has a fragile reputation. 

I'm not implying that this book will destroy D&D. In fact I'd wager the book will sell well. Sex sells afterall. Rather, I am implying that many parents with children who play D&D are already on guard. They've heard all the old stories and stereotypes, and they are watching what sort of imagery and content these products have.

I thought the "old tome" look was an ingenious marketing strategy on the part of WotC. The trend caught on across the d20 product range, and has kept the chainmail bikini clad warrior and the scantily clad damsel in distress off of the covers for the most part. I feel this has helped the game's shelf image a good bit in the eyes of most parents. Even the "Vile" book looked fairly harmless on the shelf (except for the parental warning). 

I hope the designers of this new book take that into consideration. Even a vaguely erotic cover will send up flags in the minds of the majority of parents. The word "sex" on the cover is already going to be an issue... Some parents who see that sexual content is "part of the game" may decide against letting their children participate in the hobby at all. I'd rather see the book placed in as tasteful a light as possible.

Will it hurt the hobby in the end? I highly doubt it... While I think the book itself will sell well, I do believe that the parent factor could cause a small loss of revenue to the hobby in general, although I'll concede that only the smallest of publishers would probably even notice the loss. More importantly it could also cost us a few gamers... While it may not kill the hobby to lose some potential customers because their parents wouldn't let them play the games, I certainly find it very sad that it might cause some folks to miss out on our wonderful hobby.

To those who would say that the scenario I am proposing will be rare at best... I can only base my argument on what I see. my FLGS has a regular influx of kids (some quite young). Some of the kids pull their parents around the store showing them what games they want to play and asking for money to get the coolest new books. Other parents stand silently in the background watching what their children are looking at, and monitoring what they buy. I definately see parents regulating "questionable material" on a regular basis. Maybe this isn't true for every store, but I have to imagine that if it happens here it happens elsewhere too.

Honestly... I'd like to see this book done without the d20 logo (OGL only). While I hate censorship I think it would distance the product from the D&D line a little. I think this would be a responsible thing to do... If there is backlash it might help direct more of it towards the company that produced the book and less of it at the D&D brand in general.

I doubt that will happen, but I would really like to see a parental advisory sticker (like the one on the BoVD) to designate the material as mature.


----------



## Spatula (May 2, 2003)

Eridanis said:
			
		

> *Apparently, Ms. Kestrel reads our questions, but can't be bothered to reply to them. Read her condescening comments over at gamingreport:
> 
> http://www.gamingreport.com/article.php?sid=8290&mode=thread&order=0*



I don't see any condescending comments there.  Nor anything that could even be construed as condescending.


----------



## Pirate Queen Eliza (May 2, 2003)

Eridanis said:
			
		

> *Apparently, Ms. Kestrel reads our questions, but can't be bothered to reply to them. Read her condescening comments over at gamingreport:
> 
> http://www.gamingreport.com/article.php?sid=8290&mode=thread&order=0
> 
> ...




I fail to see how she was being condescending.


----------



## Eridanis (May 2, 2003)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *Actually, let's be fair.  She mentioned over at her own bulletin board (and Andy's) that she was having trouble getting through. I have no doubt she'll be back. *




Ah, I didn't know that. I think I was more worked up about her making her comments here, and then sharing her reply elsewhere, and took that to be condesention. My bad, and my apologies.

Just got back from a nice, calm walk with my daughter. I should have known to taken the walk before posting, and not after. I would have posted in my normal calm frame of mind. 

Still won't buy the book, though. Life's too short.


----------



## Quinn (May 2, 2003)

Edit:   ya know, enough folks have already said what I was going to say so I'll just get rid of this.


----------



## Barcode (May 2, 2003)

First of all, plenty of well-expressed support for free speech and open minds in the posts thus far, so let me just add a nod, an assent and a thumbs up to that.

I feel I must add a small reality check for those who are deeply concerned about the reputation of RPG's among the Normals.

It doesn't get much worse than what it is, guys.  I don't want to turn this into a rant about respect and understanding, but let's face it, we don't get much.  A small press boobie book (if the worst fears of its detractors are at all founded) is not going to tip the scales of public opinion significantly.  I am glad that some of you feel that gaming has somehow achieved enough social acceptance that there is something at risk here, but from my seat, I ain't seeing it.  

If this did get the attention of the mainstream and cause a stir, that's fine by me.  I like sticking it to the squares.  They are so cute when they are all blustery and indignant.

And in closing, let me add, for the "Won't someone please think of the children?" camp: I guarantee you that your kids, with a minimum of initiative, have as much access to as much porn as they want, in whatever flavors they want.  I would think you would be relieved if their inclinations were towards soft-focus nipple shots of buxom elves.


----------



## hunter1828 (May 2, 2003)

Barcode said:
			
		

> And in closing, let me add, for the "Won't someone please think of the children?" camp: I guarantee you that your kids, with a minimum of initiative, have as much access to as much porn as they want, in whatever flavors they want.  I would think you would be relieved if their inclinations were towards soft-focus nipple shots of buxom elves. [/B]





Ain't that the truth!  I collect fantasy art in electronic format from various web sites which I print and use as illustrations in my campaigns.  Some of what I gather is erotic in nature, perhaps about 20%-25% of the total.  Of the erotic about 15%-20% is "explicit" in nature.  So, it's out there for any kid to jump online and search for.  This book won't have anything in it not available online, that's for sure.

hunter1828


----------



## s/LaSH (May 2, 2003)

My thoughts:

Can this be seen as demeaning towards women? Yes. Who have all the people working on the project that posted here been (including the author)? Women. Either society as a whole has brainwashed them culturally, or it's pretty harmless.

Personally, I think rabid promotion of mindless sex is bad, but this isn't rabid at all (as fas as I can tell). It looks OK to me.

Will I buy it? Probably not, because I'm poor - unless it's got some very esoteric subjects in it that could enhance my group (which is me and two other guys, each of whom plays two characters, thus romance is pretty much dead and somewhere at the bottom of a canal, much to my chagrin).

Would this product exist in my ideal world? Probably not, for a long string of reasons starting with 'nobody responds to appeals to animal instincts any more'. But the next two steps into that ideal world include a Borg-like collective consciousness and the abolition of money and national boundaries. Perhaps the best reason you wouldn't need it in that world would be: "Anyone can get it because the moment someone imagines such a product the collective knows all". I think it would be a great way for the world to confront itself. The children are something I hadn't thought about until now, however. Hmmm...

That's all I have to say on the topic, I guess.


----------



## GKestrel (May 2, 2003)

*Catching Up on Thread*

Gentlefolk,

I've found that logging into ENWorld can be difficult.  My internet connection regularly reported to me yesterday that there were too many users on.  A happy dilemna, but still one that limited my ability to contribute to the conversation.

After getting on the messages boards again (rather sorry to find them down yesterday), I find a plethora of responses.

Meanwhile, I've been continuing the conversation at andycollins.net's boards.
http://pub36.ezboard.com/fgameschat19968frm1.showMessage?topicID=118.topic
And from what I've read thus far here, I've been answering many of the same questions.

It's a quieter board, and easy for me to access. So, I've better ability to answer questions that are directed to me and the work under discussion.

Please read through my answers there and feel free to ask again any questions that I haven't yet addressed. I'll be happy to tell you what I know or think and frankly tell you when I can't provide an answer either from ignorance or an inability to share information that belongs to someone else.

Gwendolyn Kestrel
"Unashamed."


----------



## jdavis (May 2, 2003)

Man I'm really becoming a glutton for punishment here. Threads are growing at a alarming rate on the subject and I just can't keep up. Do we have any actual facts on this yet, aside from it will have pictures and the press release was written by PT Barnum? It's getting tiresome just to weed through all the hype to figure out what is going on.


Oh and just to cover both the children and D&D and the reputation of D&D being ruined post, my 11 year old daughter thinks people who play D&D are wierdos and totally uncool but she still thinks NSINC is cool so what does she know. What's the effect of this going to be on children, well slim and none. If it ever reaches store shelves then it may cause a little tussle but if it is sold over the internet then it will probably never even be known to exist by many of them. What I find so disturbing here is just how little faith some people have in children, and I wonder if some of the more vocal protesters even have children. Children can be remarkably intelligent if you actually set down and talk to them about stuff, the first time you start telling them that something is forbidden to them they will bee line for it once you turn your back but if you actually spend some time talking to your child like they were human beings then you will find they can handle quite a bit. As far as damaging D&D's reputation well I hate to inform you but most people don't think people who play D&D know what boobs look like, heck this can't hurt the reputation as you can't really go much lower than wierdo and freak. D&D is old news nobody really cares anymore it's not evil or taboo anymore were just sort of all lumped together with comic book fans and sci fi lovers, the general public thinks we are all the comic book guy from the Simpsons anyway, this will fall well beneath the radar. Oh and that really was a terrible press release, I don't think that can be stated enough.


----------



## JohnBrown (May 2, 2003)

Well, since the book is months away from release, and what we know so far is only waht has been posted on the Net.  I am not sure that we fully appreciate what this book may or may not contain.  Based on some of the tidbits we have gathered so far.  Here are my uninformed, sarcastic opinions about this new book:

Tantric sex game mechanics (or some variation thereof).

Just think, after a couple hours of ritualistic hanky-panky you can achieve the same effect as Ethereal Jaunt, Contact Other Plane and/or Gate.  Or maybe, instead of memorizing spells, using the power of your mind, or just because you can, you ritualistically have sex to prepare your fireball and or cure light wounds?  Oh wait, I bet it must have some new spells and prestige classes as well.  No matter that they are likely to be pretty much the same as existing spells and/or classes/PrCs, just with a minor twist.  Heaven knows, there just aren’t enough books out there with new spells, PrCs, or magic system variants.

Yep, can’t wait for the book to come out.



Pregnancy. 

Great!  Another way for me to punish my players when they do something I think is wrong or inappropriate.  I mean I could talk to them about their character’s behavior, but why when I can just make their characters pregnant.  That will teach them!   After all, it won’t be any different than them finding cursed magical items (offspring being in the same vein as a cursed magical items, after all).  On the flip side, when they want their character to be pregnant, but misbehaving, I can just hide behind the rules. After all, if they weren’t misbehaving and wanted to be pregnant, I would just let them be pregnant, wouldn’t I.  I bet it will even have a nice percentage breakdown.  It’s way to difficult to just grab a number out of the air.  

It might even be introducing the “Sort-of-Pregnant” Feat or possibly the Profession (midwife) or maybe the Lamaze skill…you think?  I bet it also covers things like creatures with more than one sex, or that have the males as the ones who get pregnant.  You know, all the science fiction novels and TV shows (Last night’s Enterprise, for example) that have covered these topics just isn’t enough.  Without this book, I might have to actually use some imagination to bring these over into a fantasy setting.

I don’t know how I played D&D for so many years without this book.




Touch on Fetishes

See Tantric Sex Mechanics above.

Can’t get enough of those good old crunchy rules to slow my game down even further. 




Seduction

Yeah, the current, Bluff and/or Diplomacy check mechanic that exists now is just too hard for me to understand.  I hope they devote at least 10 pages explaining how it works and all of the possible outcomes.

Rules, must have rules!




Cross-breeding

You know my players are constantly discussing why there are no half-dwarves.  Oh, sure, I came up with some lame excuse like the genetic make-up of dwarves is naturally incompatible with other races…unless of course magic is involved…which was tried, thus producing derro…so not many people have tried since.  But unless I read it in a book somewhere that it is ok for me to use such an explanation, I just don’t feel good about myself.

After all if it isn’t in print, then it just not right.




Infusing Romantic Elements into D&D

Harlequin Romance d20 is a great idea!  If that is what we are trying to achieve, however, why not just call it that…hmmm?  Oh, that’s right, I forgot, the predominate gender in this little niche market that we all love so much is male.  Females make up the predominate portion of the romance novel/film market, however.  What we going to do about this?  I know, let’s tie it to D&D with some nekkid pictures of elves.  Yep, that will help move units.

********************************************

All sarcasm aside for a moment, this sole subject – “Infusing Romantic Elements into D&D” – might have some value. It will be interesting to see how it is covered.  It wouldn’t really appeal to any of the players in my group, but it might to someone else.  It will also be interesting to see the page ratio of this subject to everything else the book may or may not contain.  

For the rest of it?  My statements above may be proven to be unfair, but I’m am willing to bet that I am not far off the mark.  

I really don’t see what the hubbub is all about.  There seems to be quite a lot of attacking or defending something that, at least based on what we know now, deserves neither in my opinion.  Granted we only have the vaguest idea about what the book actually covers but so far it sounds like what we have here is yet another twist on the “Complete Handbook” with pictures that might range anywhere from PG-13 to XXX.   Big deal.   Not exactly something to get uptight over, and not much to anticipate either since it is likely to add zilch to the average D&D campaign.

Unless you just want to look at Photoshop pictures of nekkid “elves”.  

To sum up my opinion on just the idea of “The Book of Erotic Fantasy”:

Yawn… So, what else have you got?


----------



## GKestrel (May 2, 2003)

*Caught Up*

Okay. There. I'm caught up on the thread.  Very interesting discussion in general with many folk voicing interesting, well-considered philosophies and commentary.

A few quick responses:

Kevin Kulp: Hi!  Yeah, 12 years is it since we met? Gosh time flies! Neither of us were neophytes in the hobby back then either. Solidly over a decade since we met through gaming and we both seem to be as keen as ever on the hobby.  

Eridanis: Gosh, not being up to post for less than two days and I'm "condescending." I accept the apology you proferred.

PirateQueenEliza: Looking forward to meeting you Friday and I'll bring a copy of my manuscript to date.

Wizardru: Good comments, and you direction of inquiry is not unlike the one I've pursued.

Now, here's what's what with me.

1) I don't own any part of Valar Project. I'm just one of the freelance writers involved in writing the text. I feel committed to the project because it's my words, my sweat, and my time. I'm writing for a flat fee and a small royalty. As for the royalty: If the product does well, it's not going to buy me a house or a car. It might fund my amazon.com habit for a month or let me catch up on a number of the cool d20 products that I've been too budget-concious to buy.

2) Consider the implications of point 1: I can't tell you much about the product because I'm just a freelancer.  I don't own the company and I don't own the product.  I'm trying to provide general information. Currently, I'm working with Valar Project to arrange for an excerpt or two to be posted so that folk who wish to can choose to assess the text themselves. Anthony seems agreeable and we'll be discussing the possibility tomorrow.

3) I didn't write the press release and was merely given a courtesy copy when Valar Project released it.

4) I didn't grant gamingreport.com an interview as some think. They reprinted information I posted on andycollins.net.  What they did was absolutely fine.  I just bridle at the accusations that I was being rude and neglectful to the folk here on ENWorld.

5) I work full-time and have a taxing freelance schedule in the evening. I don't have time to read and keep up on the many discussions on the many boards. I'd love to, but I can't.

6) To make my life simpler and to centralize a source of information, I'll be regularly reading and replying to andycollins.net.  If you want to hear from me, that's where to find me.

Gwendolyn
"Unashamed."


----------



## BrooklynKnight (May 2, 2003)

Pirate Queen Eliza said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Hee hee hee!  No, not yet.  I'm glad you're interested. *




Well, I hear that most of the art in the book will be from live models, and as an amatuer photgrapher myself, whos wanted to take _tastefull_ erotic pictures and such, i'm looking forward to seeing how the book handles it.

As for everything else, I dont know how many times in games i've played there has been a situation where a female PC got pregnant or a male one contracted some disease, or vice versa (male pc impregnanting someone, female getting sick). Usually it was ad hoc stuff done by a crazy DM who was drawing the line between a chuckle and being...disgusting.

I look forward to seeing how the book presents such rules and information. I have no doubt that it will be FAR more tastefull then GURPS Sex, or the infamous F.A.T.A.L.

My one sadness is that a personal friend of mine was writing a book with the same premise to pitch to a d20 company, and now there is no real point for him to continue.


----------



## Bendris Noulg (May 2, 2003)

ArthurQ said:
			
		

> My one sadness is that a personal friend of mine was writing a book with the same premise to pitch to a d20 company, and now there is no real point for him to continue.



Tell him to keep his notes; He might have ideas for things they haven't thought of, or perhaps can take a concept further.


----------



## Harlock (May 2, 2003)

*Anthony Valterra speaks*



> _posted by Anthony Valterra at http://pub53.ezboard.com/fseagothforumfrm27_
> *To those of you who are appreciating the images all credit goes to Valar Projects Art Director (Suan Geluardi), the amazingly talented photographer (Doug "Hypnox" Safford) and our way to young to be this talented photoshop artists (Eliza Gauger, Atchi and once again Susan Geluardi).
> 
> My thanks,
> ...




Just a bit more info that AV posted on a Seattle Goth EZ Board.  I tracked some stuff down from Eliza's helpful profile on Andy's site.  I've also asked a question of Gwendolyn and now Eliza as well over on Andy's site.  Dealing with all of these sites sucks.  What the frell, I'll post my questions from there here: 

(Gwendolyn apologized for sort of brushing this off initially) It's not a brush off yet, honestly, but I did also ask for an opinion. Do you think the press release was wholly responsible (meaning was it fair to the public to represent the book this way) and do you think it was representative of The Book of Erotic Fantasy.

Also, Question for Eliza: When you say "Buzz = royalties. Woot!" and have links to the controversy created by this press release in your livejournal at http://vebelfetzer.livejournal.com/ what impression do you think the average gamer should get? 

And, for anyone involved: A while back over on ENWorld Anthony was probing about a subdivision of WotC putting out mature themed products, going so far as to cite Vertigo Comics being part of DC... is that line of questioning related to Valar? Is Valar funded in part or in whole by WotC or does it just so happen that some folks from WotC worked together and Anthony's query was unrelated?

As I get a response I'll post it.

EDIT: fixed a linkage problem and clarified why I mentioned a brush off.


----------



## talinthas (May 2, 2003)

Eridanis said:
			
		

> *Apparently, Ms. Kestrel reads our questions, but can't be bothered to reply to them. Read her condescening comments over at gamingreport:
> 
> 
> Well, given that her comments on gaming report were taken from a thread on Andy Collins' Boards where she responded to all of my questions, i'd say that you are sorely mistaken sir.*


----------



## Harlock (May 2, 2003)

Here's Gwendolyn's response to my questions above from over there at Andy's boards:



> _Originally posted by Gwendolyn F. M. Kestrel_
> *Well, for those good at subtext interpretations, I did answer it by stating unequivocally that it's not what I would have written.
> 
> I wanted to tread that fine line and not express an openly negative opinion.
> ...




Kudos to her for doing it the hard way and giving an honest answer.


----------



## Nyarlathotep (May 2, 2003)

MerakSpielman said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Uhhhh...
> 
> ...




I must say that literaly made me LOL.

Thanks


----------



## Truth Seeker (May 2, 2003)

*Truth*

Well, I just got in here....(coughing)...ran to get sign up(choking)...to make my said(sneezing)...on this matter too.

And Hi to Ranger Reg, it is I SSII from the Wotc, Oriental Adventures.

I am not to repeat what was said in quotes or snippets.


Just this.....In this country, and its history, there are times when the social well being is examine and improved upon.

Moral, and social consciousness make up this fabric of this society.

And there times, when someone or a minority wishes change, and it grows from there, but in the process of bringing it about, it is talked about, pros and cons examined, advantages and disadvantages are laid on the table.

Such as this book in preproduction, the author and artist had their say. Their views were expressed and heard.  Feedback is produce.

Now, why is the book being made, one, it has not been done on a mass market scale.

Two, there are groups of people who would like to further their gaming with more flair. Granted.

Three, the mispresentation of it existence was or if so, a ploy of chance, that for one, it is has been notice greatly....hence free advertisement throughout forums in the states and abroad.

Four, the ying and yang effect, differences of opinions fly across the spectrum, which increases more views and recants, more spotlight on a book not yet released. Manfacturing massive interests.

Five, moral and social impact, discussed in detail by many, Squirrel, my hat is tipped to your Sir. Just one of many. But yet, I have not seen or seen it yet, the question or answer the effect of this material on a younger inmature mind by the 'author'. Reason,  striving for recognition in the field, for props, and prestige of being the first to make such book.   In lament terms....
make the greenback chickie.

And finally Six, it is their right to publish said material, under the guidelines of the OGL, buttttttt...it is their responibility to the gaming community in general to see that this will not set back or cause the rebirth of a once dying industry(although, maybe I did see a quote on that, reading 6 full forums pages is hard on the eyes) to go back to that undesired scenario.

Yes, I did say it is their responsiblity, as stated before,  one or a minority can change the perception of something to a higher degree, and it has history to prove it.

I have stated in EnWorld(The Simple Traveler) on the news section my views and questions on this 'manual'.....I will state here once again, yes, I will buy the book as a collector's item, no, it will be not be used in my games period.  That is my choice, as it is their to bring it into public domain.

My concern, and the only one, as pointed out many times, the younger minds that will get their hands on it, and what it can lead to.  It is bad enough, that there is a majority of the NEXT generation that are playing this hobby right now, cannot voice their opinion as well.

I have elected myself to do so.

Now, the main questions that need to answered.

On what moral grounds is it needed?

On the social consciousness level, why it is needed after 30+ years of gaming, and the handling is done by DMs in their own style and taste.

And yes, I know.....because we can do it, that is the answer I heard so far.

Well then.....Ms Gwen and the artist involve, is this your legacy to next gaming generation after us, that D&D or whatever is used as roleplaying mechanics.....that the premise of this hobby, should revolve around the art of 'sex.'

Forgive me for sounding coy, last I check, it was the art of roleplaying and adventure of the unknown. And oh, yes there was sex too, but that was done in a tasteful manner(plus no book wasn't there).

Apologies to all if I have restated some comments from the discussion, like before, I just got in finally.

And after such time mentioned, the hell that most of the early players went through with this game......I thought there were lessons learned.

History does not have to repeat itself......consider the possible ramfications of what will be done in the long run, and I know this, and it not wrong, we in this country tend to think in the short term.

Be responsible and be wise, your actions will change the lives of many. As it is so, so shall it be.


----------



## dpdx (May 2, 2003)

I only have this to add:

Whether or not I'd purchase the BoEF would be 100% driven by a combination of the personal dynamics of my gaming group, and my role (and this is really binary: am I/am I not the DM?) in that group.

So far, even with the huge mixture of genders, preferences and attitudes about sex that occur in my group, I come to the conclusion that exactly because we are fairly diverse, no one would be comfortable with one person out of it "laying down the Rules" that the rest of the player's PCs would then have to follow in a campaign, even from a flawlessly-executed game system chronicled expressly for that purpose.

[Humor type="lame"]And if my relatively mellow group can't come to an agreement, I shudder to think of the Rules threads that would appear on ENWorld: "Greater Carnal Magnificence is Broken." "Am I Being Flanked?" "Poll: Should Charm Get Me Breakfast the Morning After?"[/humor]


----------



## mistergone (May 2, 2003)

Skaros said:
			
		

> *
> 
> One point on this.  There's no particular need for anyone to provide a good reason is there?  At least pertinent to this discussion.  If the subject were about whether such a supplement had enough demand to make it successful, this would be an important question.
> 
> Skaros *




No, no need for a good reason... just a question I had. Curiosity. That's all.


----------



## Shadowdancer (May 2, 2003)

I've read several people express concern over the possible damage this book might cause to the reputation of gamers.

Have any of you thought that it might actually _improve_ the reputation of gamers? Some of the too-cool people who put down D&D might be a bit intrigued if they find out there is sex and pictures of nekkid elf babes involved. Especially the jocks. "Porn? You guys have porn? Well, yeah, I'll play, as long as there's porn involved."

Yes, I am joking, but still -- it does give one pause.

As for as my own gaming group -- we already have a pretty mature game. We have four players, all older than 40. Two women, two men, all of whom are married. Two of the players are married to each other. This book would have to be really, really, _really_ out there to be more graphic or bizarre or kinky than our game already is and has been for years.

And there are already products on the market that deal with sex in a mature, matter-of-fact, non-sensationalistic fashion. Go check out the just released "Shelzar: City of Sins," and you will see what I mean. If this BoEF is in a similar vein, I'll probably buy it.

I welcome and applaud more products of this type being done for those who choose to use them. If you don't want it in your game, fine, don't buy it.


----------



## WizarDru (May 2, 2003)

dpdx said:
			
		

> *[Humor type="lame"]And if my relatively mellow group can't come to an agreement, I shudder to think of the Rules threads that would appear on ENWorld: "Greater Carnal Magnificence is Broken." "Am I Being Flanked?" "Poll: Should Charm Get Me Breakfast the Morning After?"[/humor] *




BWA-Ha-ha!  LOL!

"Am I being Flanked?"  Oh, that's rich.  Kudos.  


Remember hong's Rule:  Any phrase, when placed in the following sentence, can be an inuendo:

"I'm _being flanked_ right now, if you know what I mean, and I think you do!"
"I'm _taking an attack of opportunity_ right now, if you know what I mean, and I think you do!"
"I'm _dropping my weapon_ right now, if you know what I mean, and I think you do!"

You get the idea.  

OK, I'll stop now.


----------



## KDLadage (May 2, 2003)

ArthurQ said:
			
		

> *I look forward to seeing how the book presents such rules and information. I have no doubt that it will be FAR more tastefull then GURPS Sex, or the infamous F.A.T.A.L.*



Now, I can understand not wanting to see another F.A.T.A.L.... but, if you do not mind my asking, what did you find that was not tastefull about *GURPS Sex*? I ask because I have used that little set of rules many times and have found Christine Morgan's work to be of the highest calibre.


----------



## Al (May 2, 2003)

Well, I've read most of this thread, and most of the 'antis' seem to boil down to two major arguments.

1. It will 'corrupt' young gamers.
2. It will damage the reputation of the game.

Both are highly flawed.

With regard to the first, we have to bear in mind that there is a real issue of DM responsibility.  The DM has a responsibility to only introduce the BoEF if he feels it appropriate, and if the players are mature enough to deal with the BoEF in an adult fashion.  A high school DM who introduces it to a group of 14-year-olds is clearly acting in an irresponsible manner.  Aha, though- what about irresponsible DMs?  Personally, I don't think that this makes a huge difference.  Irresponsible DMs can introduce pornography, the GUCK (though I'm not sure how this compares with the BoEF) or any other material already.  If a DM is irresponsible, he is irresponsible regardless of the BoEF; if he is responsible (as I hope most are) then he will only introduce it if appropriate.

As for tarnishing the reputation of the game, this is somewhat self-indulgent.  Dividing the general population into the hardcore antis (a la Jack Chick), gamers and the rest, it's clear to see it has little impact on any group.  The hardcore antis are largely out-of-touch (Chick's website does not feature the Book of Vile Darkness, for example) with even the new material that they could bash gaming with.  In any case, they will be against gaming whatever it does.  These people are frequently _against Harry Potter and Pokemon_ : they just seem determined to attack gaming and fantasy irrespective of what it does.  The BoEF will not alter these attacks, even if they do get wind of it.  As for gamers, I think that by and large it will not deter them.  Like the BoVD, most retailers will tend to keep it until wraps, and probably sealed.  If the gamers want it, they will buy it.  If not, they won't.  I can't see anyone really quitting DnD because of the BoEF, especially as it isn't core rules.  An erotic fantasy section in the DMG might deter some, but a separate optional supplement will make no difference.  As for the population at large, we flatter ourselves that we are even on their radar.  I've never seen a major national daily or weekly than even mentioned Dungeons & Dragons (except for a film review of the awful movie), let alone an obscure non-core supplement.  People are largely uninterested in the intricacies of the gaming world.  Some may have vague notions of the standard stereotypes of long beards, slightly unwashed adolescents and such like, but they will neither know nor care about the details.  After all, the much-vaunted moral outcry against the BoVD never materialised, and that was actually published by WotC themselves.

Really, I can't see what all the fuss is about.  There was hysteria about the BoVD, there is hysteria about the BoEF.  In the former case, there was no moral backlash, no public outcry, no mass boycotts.  I fail to see any of these materialising as a result of the latter.


----------



## Celtavian (May 2, 2003)

*Re*

Personally, I have been using sex and romance in my D&D games for nearly as long as I have been playing. There is no better way to manipulate imaginative male gamers than to incorporate an attractive female into the campaign. 

I have had the most amusing times as a DM watching male players attempt to "do the right thing" when dealing with female PC's or NPC's. Males by their nature will act differently even when dealing with imaginary females if run well by a DM.

I often find a picture of an attractive female to enhance the fantasy and further draw the male player in. A nice picture goes along way in causing a player to develop an attachment to the NPC. 

Hell, I once had my male players fighting over one of my NPC's. It was endlessly amusing watching them fight each other over a made up character all in the interest of roleplaying.

This book could be good fun for creative DM's who can incorporate romance and sex into their games without going overboard. With the vast majority of the gamer base being male, sex and romance can be a poweful roleplaying tool for the DM.


----------



## Truth Seeker (May 2, 2003)

*PowerFul tool....*

Ah yes...a powerful tool.

Like DMs enforcing the mating cycle of certain races in the game.

Like women players need to do that. Or younger girlls players.

In  a man's hands.....and here the kicker, the suppose author of the book as stated is a woman.

Now that is funny.


----------



## mythusmage (May 2, 2003)

d20Dwarf said:
			
		

> *So many hanging, fleshy appendages, so little time.... *




What are you going to do when the earlobes run out?


----------



## mythusmage (May 2, 2003)

*On Those Sweet, Lovable, Wonderful, Innocent Children*

If it weren't for parents, life on Earth would be extinct.


----------



## Delgar (May 2, 2003)

I want Flumph LOVE!!!


Delgar


----------



## TalonComics (May 2, 2003)

I'd just like to say as a retailer I don't think this book is going to cause me even an ounce of controversy even in the "bible belt." I plan on selling this book on the shelf with little or no fanfare other than making sure minors aren't thumbing through it.

Beyond that, I hope the book is good and treats sex, romance and seduction in an adult fashion without the snickering, immature concepts I've commonly seen run in crappy D&D games.

I've always been an advocate of seeing more women playing RPGs. Hopefully, the idea of romance and seduction will give women who aren't currently playing now another reason to consider D&D and RPGs as a whole. I think D&D can be just as romantic as the gothic flavor of Vampire the Masqerade.

Good luck to all that are involved in this venture. You can count on my store to be selling this book. 

~Derek


----------



## BOZ (May 2, 2003)

BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> *Squirrel,
> 
> Personally, I think that was wrong, man.  I have no desire to start a flame war, so I will refrain from dropping down to the level you wish, but if you have a point then you should write it yourself instead of plagarizing someone else's work.
> 
> We all have a write to our own viewpoint.  Ye gods, this is why I do not like messageboards.  <sigh>*




and yet, we can clearly see that he is still here.


----------



## jaerdaph (May 2, 2003)

Personally, I don't want to comment on any book I haven't even seen yet, but I do know this: I'll really have to think twice before I ask if any of the prestige classes in The Book of Erotic Fantasy got the (ahem)... shaft.


----------



## Assenpfeffer (May 2, 2003)

TalonComics said:
			
		

> *I've always been an advocate of seeing more women playing RPGs. Hopefully, the idea of romance and seduction will give women who aren't currently playing now another reason to consider D&D and RPGs as a whole. I think D&D can be just as romantic as the gothic flavor of Vampire the Masqerade.*




Which is, itself, an interesting point.  It's widely conceded that there's a much higher percentage of women in Vampire games than there is in D&D games.  Is this because of the much greater role that sensuality plays in Vampire, a game with clear sexual overtones, even when it doesn't use depictions of sex.  Vampire mythology and literature has always been about sex - and about _forbidden_ sex, at that.


----------



## BOZ (May 2, 2003)

maddman75 said:
			
		

> *I also find offensive that only 'losers living in their parents basement who've never had actual sex' could only find eroticism and porn interesting.  None of those things describe me, and I enjoy erotic materials.  (Maybe its just me -- millions of web sites and I'm the only one )  As noted, most gaming shops carry adult anime or other comics and movies and so already deal with keeping inappropriate materials away from kids.
> 
> Also, I'd advise everyone to stay away from the "L" and "C" words in this discussion.  Politics gives them thar mods an itchy trigger finger. *




yet another reason not to hate maddman.


----------



## BOZ (May 2, 2003)

Kestrel said:
			
		

> *I have no use for the book myself, but I will defend the right to publish it.  I have no desire to roleplay sex with the guys that I play games with.  I'll do that kind of roleplaying with my fiance
> 
> Also want to throw out some applause to Merak.  I've never seen someone so tolerant and stable-minded on a message board
> 
> Bravo! *




i thought you wrote this book?

oh wait... nevermind.


----------



## BOZ (May 2, 2003)

Delgar said:
			
		

> *WooHoo! Elf porn is hot, Dwarf porn is not!
> 
> Next we'll have:
> 
> ...




you made my day.


----------



## Henry (May 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Delgar:_
> Next we'll have:
> 
> Dragon Kama Sutra - Over 500 new positions you can try with your dragon mate. (Warning: we're not liable for any crushed, humans, elves, dwarves etc.)
> ...




You know, you really need to stop -- you're doubtlessly giving M. Jason Parent an endless amount of new ideas for the next "Portable Hole Full of Beer" book.


----------



## Delgar (May 2, 2003)

> You know, you really need to stop -- you're doubtlessly giving M. Jason Parent an endless amount of new ideas for the next "Portable Hole Full of Beer" book




Like:

"Portable Hole Full of Flaggelating Flumphs"
"101 New Pulsating Staffs"
"Bag of Holding or Dwarven S&M Den?"
"Hewards Handy Sextoy Sack"
"Vecna's *(&^"

Bring on the Flumph Porn!!! We want nekkid Flumphs!

Delgar


----------



## Delgar (May 2, 2003)

> you made my day.




At least I made someones day!!!

Delgar


----------



## MerakSpielman (May 2, 2003)

Delgar said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Like:
> 
> ...




How about just leaving it to the imagination?

Hand of Glory
Portable Hole
Any Rod, Wand or Staff
Gloves of Dexterity
Potion of Heroism
...

Edit: We're not exactly sounding mature are we? More like the giggling highschoolers we've been slamming for the last few pages...


----------



## Harlock (May 2, 2003)

MerakSpielman said:
			
		

> *Edit: We're not exactly sounding mature are we? More like the giggling highschoolers we've been slamming for the last few pages... *




Thanks MerakSpielman!  I laughed pretty hard after reading that line.  I think being able to even objectively point that out took some courage and introspection.  Great stuff, best line of the thread in fact.


----------



## Urizen (May 6, 2003)

Ok, this just seems kind of odd to me. I realize my post is going to probably offend some people. I apologize ahead of time. I tend to come across as arrogant, but I guess that's just how I am. I simply say what I'm thinking. I don't have all that much tact. So, if I offend anyone with this.. I do sincerely apologize.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
*A whole bunch of inappropriate stuff deleted by Piratecat.*
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Don't get me wrong, if that's your cup of tea then great, enjoy yourselves. It just seems kind of, well, lame. 

I've always looked at Dungeons and Dragons as a game of Adventure. Sexual activity was always assumed to happen, it never really needed to be RP'd out. It seems kind of out of place (at least to me) to be going on a dungeon crawl, for example, and, in the midst of all the dangers that accompany such a journey, OH MY! The characters need to have sex to replenish their spell abilities!! 

I just don't see what the point is behind writing this particular book. Ok you think the game needs more sexuality and mature content. Great! But can't all of this be handled "behind the scenes?" I mean not everyone is going to play this type of character in a given session, so what do the other players do while the "sex" characters (for lack of a better description) do their tantric thing...

I'm reminded of Shadowrun game sessions I used to play in where the guy who played the Decker began his matrix run and everyone else cleared out because they knew that it was gonna take all night. I wonder if that is (in general) the sort of thing people can expect with these types of characters. 

I'm sorry, but I just don't see how this type of thing fits into the game.

Again, if I offended anyone. I do apologize.


----------



## herald (May 6, 2003)

Wow, I can hear the moderators coming now to lock down the thread. You pushed it over the line with that one.


----------



## Urizen (May 6, 2003)

yeah, probably.

Like I said, I have no tact.

<<Conversation between Ralan, the Studly 1st level tantric mage and  Gorm, his Dwarven friend.>>>

Ralan: Please Gorm, I need to learn this new Tantric spell from Tilyana, but she won't sleep with me unless her Chamber maid, Grushna (a Half orc) gets some too.. 

Gorm: Ye must be crazy... I ain't goin' anywhere near that!!

Ralan: Come on man, Take one  for the Team


----------



## Piratecat (May 6, 2003)

Urizen, welcome to the boards. If you wish to post here, you need to abide by the rules. Please read the FAQ and the summary at the top of every forum. Your post just now wasn't even remotely appropriate.

You see, it doesn't matter how many times you apologize in advance. Next time you're tempted to post something that would offend Morrus' or Eric's grandmother - don't. It's that simple. And no discussion of how you "have no tact" excuses you from obeying this guideline.  

If this is somehow a problem for you, please email me.


----------



## Urizen (May 6, 2003)

I understand, and in the future I will be sure to abide by the rules I just broke with that post.


----------



## Wayside (May 6, 2003)

Urizen said:
			
		

> *yeah, probably.
> 
> Like I said, I have no tact.
> *




There's a difference between having no tact and being willfully tactless.  I'd think any fan of Blake capable of making such a distinction.


----------



## Piratecat (May 6, 2003)

Urizen said:
			
		

> *I understand, and in the future I will be sure to abide by the rules I just broke with that post. *




Thanks! Now go have fun.


----------



## Urizen (May 6, 2003)

Wayside said:
			
		

> *
> 
> There's a difference between having no tact and being willfully tactless.  I'd think any fan of Blake capable of making such a distinction. *




You're right. I was willfully tactless, but I happen to like freedom of speech. I have a habit of posting my what I'm thinking un-edited. 

A person simply can't preface a post with "And I know this is going to offend some people" and not know those words should probably be left un-posted. So in that sense I am guilty.

I did apologize repeatedly, as my true intention was not to offend but rather to clearly state my opinions on this subject.

Again, in the future I will make every effort to curb my tendancies to say exactly what I'm thinking.


----------



## Tzarevitch (May 6, 2003)

MerakSpielman said:
			
		

> *
> 
> How about just leaving it to the imagination?
> 
> ...




You forgot the Oil of Slipperyness.  

. . . 


I apologize in advance but it was too inviting to pass it up. 


Tzarevitch


----------



## MerakSpielman (May 7, 2003)

Urizen said:
			
		

> *...
> Again, in the future I will make every effort to curb my tendancies to say exactly what I'm thinking. *




Saying what you're thinking is generally fine, as long as you think long and hard about how to _phrase_ it right. The concepts remain intact, but the tone and terminology that are used change. It's a useful skill in real life and on the boards.


----------



## mythusmage (May 7, 2003)

Since we're getting into allusion and simile here, I'd like to remind you all of these words from Tom Lehrer:

When correctly viewed,
Everything is lewd.
I can tell you things about Peter Pan,
Or the Wizard of Oz (there's a dirty old man!).


----------



## Krug (Jul 1, 2003)

From ogrecave.com 



> *Origins 2003 aftermath: the dirty details*
> Anthony Valterra showed me a 36-page-or-so preview of the upcoming 192-page Book of Erotic Fantasy. From that small sample, I can say that the book seems about 50% relatively lame fan service (a Command Orgasm/Masturbation spell, with color photo illustration. Did the world need that? I'm thinking not), and 50% fairly interesting, more sophisticated stuff. The prestige classes are where a lot of the interest is - Anthony told me that co-author Gwen Kestrel is very big on classes that interrelate (quite appropriate for a sex book). The Dominator and Submissive prestige classes have abilities that complement each other, for example. There's some sort of mage that can burn actual ability stats to achieve some effects, and s/he does well paired with a "sacred prostitute" class that restores ability scores. I asked if the sacred prostitute gave you 50 hit points if you got her alone in a van, but he didn't get it.


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## Djeta Thernadier (Jul 1, 2003)

I think it sounds like a great idea. I heard about this a while ago and was very intrigued.

As for keeping it away from children, you can't childproof the world, even if you could, most high school kids are having sex anyways. You can sheild the kiddies from everything, they are still going to have natural urges and instincts. And for that matter, if these kids want to look at sexual stuff, it's abound on the internet and elsewhere. 

It's not just kids who play D&D, anyways. There are plenty of adults. Those kids who DO play D&D , IMHO, tend to be smarter and less likely to engage in *reckless* sexual behavior than their non RPG counterparts. That's not based on any stats, just based on the kids I know who think D&D is cool. (I'm not a kid btw, I'm 26)

And this is not porn. It's erotic, but there is a big difference between erotic and pornographic, which I'm not going to get into here. 

Thank you for posting Ms. Kestrel. You should be proud of your work and definately not be ashamed of it's erotic nature.

~Sheri


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## Ghostwind (Jul 1, 2003)

I actually got to read the proof (as opposed to glancing through it) and, while the content is certainly of an adult nature, it is quite good. The images are essentially a strong PG-13/soft R rating, while the rules are balanced and the subject matter is treated with professionalism and seriousness. If the rest of the book is as good as the preview, it should be quite useful for gamers who are looking for a more adult level of play.

I was watching the reactions of people quite closely when Anthony was handing out his flyers and showing the proof. It was interesting to see the number of male gamers who seemed to want no part of it versus the number of female gamers who were quite excited at the idea of the book, especially when they learned the book was targeted at relationships, intimacy, pregnancy, and the like and not just sex.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Jul 1, 2003)

I'm bumping this up.


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## Iron_Chef (Jul 1, 2003)

BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> *
> I have no desire to control what you do in your own group.  You can still DO it.  We do not need a public set of rules for ertocia in DnD.  This is simplely a move to create controversy in order to sell a product: DnD.  And I do know that WOTC is involved.  I know that you do not care how we, the players, appear to others.  You're in it for the money, but I do wish that you'd considered that angle.*




WRONG! You are desiring to control what others do in their group by attempting to restrict their access to this material which you personally find "dirty" and objectionable. Nor do you do know for a fact that WoTC has any part in this project or company, or you'd provide us with concrete evidence, not vague "gut" feelings.



			
				BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> *The only thing that I can do is write Hasbo and WOTC and let them know what I think.  In fact, I will be sending multiple letters, including a petition started by my players and circulating around the local game shops and universities.  I did not fight the BoVD, but I will not go quietly into the darkness on this issue.
> 
> Dave Allen *




It's "what about the children?" finger-pointing hysterics like you that are impeding the progress of society and ruining the fun for adults everywhere. You can't childproof the world. It's 100% a parental responsibility to restrict a child's access to "adult" material. You keep going down this path and you're headed into George Orwell's 1984, but you don't seem to care, let alone consider the consequences of your actions in the long run. How would you feel if this kind of "ban it!" hysteria were directed at something you had an interest in? You'd be outraged, just like your post outraged me.

You think violence is nothing to protest over, but freak out over sex, romance and nudity? That's so twisted as to be completely insane. Your letters will go straight in the trash, as neither WoTC nor Hasbro has anything to do with this project. Treating violence as acceptable, even desirable, while calling sex "dirty" is sending the wrong message. Sex is natural, enjoyable and isn't going away, no matter how much puritans like you might wish it to sweep it under the rug, whether due to your own twisted inadequacy or a desire to "protect the children" (which, IMO, is just a front for an entirely more sinister far right Christian pro-censorship agenda).

Personally, I think the book sounds rather lame (just like the GUCK and Nymphology were massive disappointments despite a few interesting tidbits), but I will vigorously defend the right of the authors and publisher to exercise their right to freedom of speech, rake in barrelfuls of cash from controversy, and I hope more adult themed RPG products will be published (preferably without juvenile "insta-orgasm" spells, complicated sex mechanics and magic dildos). The D&D game has been "dumbed down" enough thanks to Lorraine Williams and "Angry Mother Syndrome" and I refuse to let it slip back in that direction. I am an adult gamer and I want intelligent, mature gaming products.


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## hunter1828 (Jul 1, 2003)

This thread is almost two months old and I think eveyone knows by now that WotC is *NOT* involved with the Book of Erotic Fantasy.

hunter1828


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## fusangite (Jul 2, 2003)

Well, thanks for posting the "details" of the preview for this book. I think I'll take the idea of the Dominator/rix and Submissive as prestige classes as my new example for pointing out how stupid prestige classes are as a concept. 

D&D, more than any other RPG, is marketed to kids. And because of the structure of the open gaming license, the fact is that regardless of the legal realities, this book will be associated with WOTC and D&D. I think this book makes the case for modifying the open gaming license better than anything else could. 

Those who wish to engage in the sex-violence comparison are really dealing with apples and oranges here. The fact is that every society has taboos against public sexual activity and no society has taboos against public violence. This is not because sex is worse than violence; it clearly isn't -- violence usually does more harm than good whereas sex does more good than harm. This, however, does not change the fact that being exogamous, monogamous creatures, public sex is something the vast majority of human beings are hard-wired against. 

Obviously, this book has been written, is being vigorously promoted and nothing we can say here will stop its ultimate publication. That said, I think the book will have a net adverse effect on the gaming community for years to come. It's a shame Valterra and Kestrel are going ahead with it. 

Why is this? Because the book will legitimate and facilitate graphic sexual depictions and sexualized play within D&D. I'm not suggesting that adolescent male gamers do not run games replete with sexual references, but one would have to be an idiot not to see that by creating gaming structures for sexual interaction and giving conferring the legitimacy on such interactions that the book does, the amount of sex in adolescent games will increase. Arguing that because teenagers already think about sex all the time, nothing we do will affect the ways they are sexual or the situations in which they are sexual is a spurious and invalid argument. How we make alcohol available and the contexts in which we do so helps to determine under what conditions and how much adolescents drink. How we make drugs available and the contexts in which we do so helps to determine under what conditions and how many drugs kids do. Surely, BOEF will affect how gamer kids deal with sex.

Why is that bad? I think that by increasing the amount of inflated erectile tissue under a gaming table over the course of an evening or afternoon, D&D is being harmed. Uncomfortable sexual dynamics will be created or increased between young DMs and players. The amount of proxy sexual interaction between players will also increase. This will harm D&D by:
(a) being more likely to present an uncomfortable, sexually-charged atmosphere to young female gamers entering a predominantly male group
(b) redirecting the sexual energies of young men away from creating real relationships with real people in favour of making believe they are having sex with their friends or acquaintances (Yahoo and AOL are already having this effect; let's not make it any worse than it's already getting)
(c) redefining gaming as a group sexual activity in the minds of adolescents, parents and educators
(d) causing gaming groups to break up when the sexual theme of the game erupts in sessions in embarassing and inappropriate ways
(e) changing D&D from a game that is transgressive in the minds of a small minority of religious fundamentalists into a game that is transgressive in the minds of significantly more people, many of whom are part of the cultural mainstream

It is important to distinguish between non-interactive sexual storytelling such as movies, books and comics and interactive, improvisational sexual activities. Public sexual interaction, whether real or by proxy is regarded in all societies as abnormal and special reserved either for the sacred sphere or condemned altogether. Thus, I want to make it clear that sex-based RPGs should not and cannot be compared to sexual stories and films; nor can it be compared to violent roleplay. It is a special case. 

There will always be sex in games to one degree or another; the question is: will we as the gaming community work to see that this is redirected and limited or will we send young DMs the signal that they have written a successful adventure when all their players have erections?


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## Iron_Chef (Jul 2, 2003)

fusangite said:
			
		

> *will we send young DMs the signal that they have written a successful adventure when all their players have erections? *




Gawd, I hope so.  There's nothing better than Friday night spent smooching it up with some hot imaginary chainmail bikini babe and chopping off bad guy's heads all in the span of a few hours. 

Seriously, you are not understanding that the book is for mature audiences and will be clearly labeled as such. Parents who allow their little gamers to purchase such a book without checking it first are BAD PARENTS. It is by this complete and utter deep-rooted psychological failure by people to accept responsibility for themselves as PARENTS that we continue to see these misguided pro-censorship "childproof the world" campaigns threaten everything that is fun in this world for us adults. This world is run by adults and should be enjoyed by adults. Kids are just along for the ride... It's solely the parent's job to "protect them." Not the author. Not the publisher. Not the corporation that owns the publisher. And certainly not the government. They can't even balance the budget; how are they supposed to do anything right?

I note you are from Canada, land of censorship. Canada has the most aggresive and restrictive censorship policies in the free world, wores than the notorious UK. All mail is routed to one destination for "inspection" where goose-steppin' customs goons can't wait to steal their citizen's money by jacking all their "objectionable" foreign products, like books and movies. Canada recently put a guy in jail in one of the worst travesties of justice ever committed (involving a conspiracy by the police and prosecutors) because the guy made videos with and for adults featuring naked girls undergoing simulated (CGI) gunshot wounds. Nothing you couldn't see in an R-rated movie, but Canada threw the guy in jail, bankrupted him trying to defend himself, and stole the copyrights to all his films in a settlement saying his life's work could never be released again or he'd go back to jail. Nice country you got there. The poor guy can't even move to America now because he's got a "criminal" record, so he's a virtual prisoner of the Canadian regime for the rest of his life, without ever having committed a crime. Lovely; the Nazis would be proud. 

Your complacency and apparent endorsement of your corrupt political and judicial system is horrifying. What if they made gaming or one of your other hobbies illegal? Or your religion? Or your chosen career? You'd be next on their hit list and would have only yourself to blame when the jackboots kick in your door. 

Canada is no friend to free speech, and your misguided opinions about what we can and cannot read in America are extremely dangerous. Freedom of speech is one of our most important rights here. You stick to your repressive Canada where the government does your thinking for you; I'll take the USA any day (even with the current administration, lol).

BLAME CANADA!


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## tetsujin28 (Jul 2, 2003)

GKestrel said:
			
		

> *The topic of the moment seems to be The Book of Erotic Fantasy.  *



 Really? Never heard of it.


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## talinthas (Jul 2, 2003)

this was the topic of months ago, really.


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## takyris (Jul 2, 2003)

Fusangite, I respect your point, but in that respect, it's no different than a player who wants to use his Dazzling Swashbuckler PrC in what the DM sees as a grim, gritty campaign.  Every splatbook, from what I remember, has a big thing at the front that reads "You do NOT automatically get to put this into your game -- your DM is the sole arbiter of whether or not this gets in, whether or not this gets modified, and whether or not you can use it," or words to that effect.

In my main campaign, I have no more intention of letting my PCs use the BoEF than I do of letting them use psionics -- it's not in my game's flavor.  But that's really all it is -- flavor.

I played in a d20 Modern game with a 17-year-old kid that my buddy and I were sort of mentoring (as a way to get him to shut up -- we all ended up on stage crew together).  It was not a sex-heavy game.  It was a guns-heavy game.  He STILL ended up asking if he could make a Charisma check to see if he got a "hot nurse" when he went to the hospital after falling from a 9-story building.  And he wasn't kidding.

In a game with a bad DM, the lame sex stuff is already happening, and the BoEF won't do anything more than provide titillation and a faint sense of disappointment when it fails to be as Penthouse Forum-ish as they wanted.  In a game with a good DM, sexuality might or might not be included.  It's been off-screen in my game, and I don't see my players clamoring to change that rule -- but if they did, I'd be up for giving it a shot.   And I'm sure that the rules in the book would be more balanced than the joking suggestions I hear tossed out when someone wants to "know how they did" by something other than their own descriptions.


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## Spatula (Jul 2, 2003)

fusangite said:
			
		

> *That said, I think the book will have a net adverse effect on the gaming community for years to come.*



My bet is that, like the BOVD, once the BOEF is actually released the controversy will evaporate and this whole mess will quickly be forgotten.


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## Belen (Jul 2, 2003)

It always amazes me how the "publish anything" crowd devolves into name-calling and character bashing in an argument.  Someone posts a constructive argument that has nothing to do with censorship, such as fusangite, and someone immediately calls him a nasty nazi-like censor and then labels his nation as bad, just because they do not agree with their opinion.

How pathetic.


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## Skaros (Jul 2, 2003)

Iron_Chef said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Gawd, I hope so.  There's nothing better than Friday night spent smooching it up with some hot imaginary chainmail bikini babe and chopping off bad guy's heads all in the span of a few hours.
> 
> ...




Maybe I missed it, but where did fsungite promote government censorship or suggest that his argument is based on wanting to protect children?

Quote him, or retract your racist remarks.  Oh, what the heck, how about retracting some of those remarks even if you can quote him suggesting what you say he suggested.

Skaros


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## LuYangShih (Jul 2, 2003)

I never even knew about this book before reading this thread.  The book seems pointless, especially given the ad copy of the game posted in this thread.  I doubt it will address any valid topics in a consistent or mature manner.  It will sell, though, and that is the point.


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## fusangite (Jul 2, 2003)

Iron_Chef says



> Seriously, you are not understanding that the book is for mature audiences and will be clearly labeled as such.




No. It's perfectly clear to me that it will be labeled as such. I'm sure you'll agree that product labelling does not have the most enormous effect on who consumes a product. Other factors are more important: what products something is associated with, where they are sold, how they are advertized, at what price they are sold, etc. There are many many factors which determine a product's availability to and popularity with a particular group of individuals. 

My argument is that the most important thing about this product is that it is the first and only one of its kind. This factor, beyond any labeling and marketing considerations, will produce an impact and an impact disproportionately felt by gamers who lack other sexual outlets.



> Parents who allow their little gamers to purchase such a book without checking it first are BAD PARENTS. It is by this complete and utter deep-rooted psychological failure by people to accept responsibility for themselves as PARENTS that we continue to see these misguided pro-censorship "childproof the world" campaigns threaten everything that is fun in this world for us adults.




So, you blame the inability of parents to be omniscient and omnipotent for the rise of state action to censor things. As you well know, all adolescents defy their parents and all adolescents engage in transgressive acts. The outrageously insensitive statements you make about the absolute power and exclusive responsibility of the family unit stuns me here.



> This world is run by adults and should be enjoyed by adults. Kids are just along for the ride... It's solely the parent's job to "protect them." Not the author. Not the publisher. Not the corporation that owns the publisher. And certainly not the government.




This kind of brutal nihilistic philosophy is supported by no one. If kids are hungry and their parents can't feed them, would you argue that they should starve because the rest of us in society have no responsibility for their welfare!? What utter rot. The well-being of not just kids but all members of society is a collective responsibility we all share. When we take actions, we must understand that they affect others and work to ensure that these effects are not negative.



> They can't even balance the budget; how are they supposed to do anything right?




Are you going to apprehend the children of all the parents whose credit card debt or mortgage is out of control on that basis?



> I note you are from Canada, land of censorship. Canada has the most aggresive and restrictive censorship policies in the free world, wores than the notorious UK.




I agree with you here. The child pornography law in Canada is an absurdity and a disgrace. Our customs officials have far far too much power and the government will do nothing about them despite repeated rulings against them by our supreme court. We have a very disturbing package of gun control legislation which is written like UK child protection laws not to limit gun possession but to create a loophole so as to permit warrantless searches of people's homes. You are preaching to the choir here about the Canadian government's ambivalence towards certain basic freedoms. 

I agree with you that state action is almost always the wrong way to regulate offensive, controversial or damaging material. *WHICH IS WHY AT NO POINT DO I ADVOCATE ANY STATE ACTION WHATSOEVER TO DEAL WITH BOEF OR ANY OTHER PUBLICATION I OBJECT TO.* You see, I actually believe in the doctrines of personal and social responsibility; I'm calling on the gaming community to live by those ideals. Most quasi-libertarians like you seem to misunderstand your own ideology. The point of libertarianism is for the state to withdraw from regulating various spheres of human behaviour because _voluntary_ institutions and practices will arise in its place. I'm not a libertarian but I would suggest that you would be well-served to at least comprehend your own ideology.

In response to takyris, D&D needs more DMs like you. I'm sure that most experienced gamers will immediately understand why sex and D&D do not mix. My concern is primarily about first-time, young and inexperienced DMs not about BOEF adversely affecting established and successful games.


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## Arnwyn (Jul 2, 2003)

Iron_Chef said:
			
		

> *I note you are from Canada, land of censorship. Canada has the most aggresive and restrictive censorship policies in the free world, wores than the notorious UK. All mail is routed to one destination for "inspection" where goose-steppin' customs goons can't wait to steal their citizen's money by jacking all their "objectionable" foreign products, like books and movies. Canada recently put a guy in jail in one of the worst travesties of justice ever committed (involving a conspiracy by the police and prosecutors) because the guy made videos with and for adults featuring naked girls undergoing simulated (CGI) gunshot wounds. Nothing you couldn't see in an R-rated movie, but Canada threw the guy in jail, bankrupted him trying to defend himself, and stole the copyrights to all his films in a settlement saying his life's work could never be released again or he'd go back to jail. Nice country you got there. The poor guy can't even move to America now because he's got a "criminal" record, so he's a virtual prisoner of the Canadian regime for the rest of his life, without ever having committed a crime. Lovely; the Nazis would be proud.
> 
> Your complacency and apparent endorsement of your corrupt political and judicial system is horrifying. What if they made gaming or one of your other hobbies illegal? Or your religion? Or your chosen career? You'd be next on their hit list and would have only yourself to blame when the jackboots kick in your door.
> 
> ...



This post is a joke, right?

If not, then that was the most woefully ignorant post I've seen at ENWorld in a *long* time. You're not a particularly bright light, are ya, Iron_Chef?

Then again, I'm amazed this thread is still going...


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## Darth Shoju (Jul 2, 2003)

Iron_Chef said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I note you are from Canada, land of censorship. Canada has the most aggresive and restrictive censorship policies in the free world, wores than the notorious UK. All mail is routed to one destination for "inspection" where goose-steppin' customs goons can't wait to steal their citizen's money by jacking all their "objectionable" foreign products, like books and movies. Canada recently put a guy in jail in one of the worst travesties of justice ever committed (involving a conspiracy by the police and prosecutors) because the guy made videos with and for adults featuring naked girls undergoing simulated (CGI) gunshot wounds. Nothing you couldn't see in an R-rated movie, but Canada threw the guy in jail, bankrupted him trying to defend himself, and stole the copyrights to all his films in a settlement saying his life's work could never be released again or he'd go back to jail. Nice country you got there. The poor guy can't even move to America now because he's got a "criminal" record, so he's a virtual prisoner of the Canadian regime for the rest of his life, without ever having committed a crime. Lovely; the Nazis would be proud.
> 
> ...




Ummm what the hell is this? Fus, man I can't believe you were so mellow about these comments. I mean, yeah I agree our customs officials do have too much power, and our laws need reformation, but Iron Chef's comments went WAY beyond that. I found them to be utterly offensive. I'm having a really hard time understanding how they have been let stand this long. This is a message board about *ROLEPLAYING* not a forum for slandering other people's nationalities. I would greatly appreciate if you (Iron Chef) would desist from taking potshots at my country. You want to continue to debate this very tired point about the BoEF fine, but leave Canada out of it.


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## Ghostwind (Jul 2, 2003)

Unless someone has something relevant to discuss about the book itself and not the political idealisms of neighboring countries, it would seem a prudent time to close this thread before it gets even more political.


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## Remathilis (Jul 2, 2003)

Heh, Being a native Detroiter, I have to laugh at the concept of Canada being a "Nazi" nation, I mean, I can cross the border into Windsor where the drinking age is 19, there are no provisions against strip clubs, Pot fines are smaller (and no jail time!), gay-marriage is a proposed law, and women can go topless on public beaches. 

Totalitarian Regime? I think NOT! I wish America was as liberal, we'd have lower blood-pressure and health-care to treat it!

anyway, enought politics on a RPG board. Just needed to defend my Canadian neighbors.


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## Henry (Jul 2, 2003)

This thread, nor the forums, are a place for political discussion, unless it directly pertains to the "politics" of gaming.

Thread closed.


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