# Congratulations to the 2020 ENnies Winners!



## schneeland (Aug 1, 2020)

I know it was just a solution for the weird times we live in, but it was actually nice to be able to watch this online (well, at least partly, as it started at 2am for me).


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## Morrus (Aug 1, 2020)

schneeland said:


> I know it was just a solution for the weird times we live in, but it was actually nice to be able to watch this online (well, at least partly, as it started at 2am for me).



The event has been streamed online for years.


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## schneeland (Aug 1, 2020)

Morrus said:


> The event has been streamed online for years.




Weird, I never realized that. I guess it needed the buzz of Gencon Online to make me realize that's a thing. I guess I will also check it out next year, then


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## Maggan (Aug 1, 2020)

Congrats to all winners and to all that were nominated!


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## Egg Embry (Aug 1, 2020)

Some excellent games taking home the awards!


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## Tyler Pickering (Aug 1, 2020)

I've never heard of or seen almost all of these products. Should I be delving more into these obscure RPGs?


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## Von Ether (Aug 1, 2020)

Congrats to all the winners and the nominees. There were so much good stuff this year.


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## Jeff Carpenter (Aug 1, 2020)

Always looking for a good adventure I clicked on "A Pound of Flesh" and this was the product description.

"A Pound of Flesh is a toolkit for building your own run-down, back-water, black market space station. And all in a compact zine format."

I'm confused is it a adventure or a supplement? 

Good for it and it looks interesting just not sure it's in the right category.


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## Morrus (Aug 1, 2020)

Tyler Pickering said:


> I've never heard of or seen almost all of these products. Should I be delving more into these obscure RPGs?



If you want! They’re very good!


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## volanin (Aug 1, 2020)

*Monsters Know What They're Doing* is $14 (52% off) on Amazon today.
It's a steal for this 560-page book.

Non-affiliate link:
The Monsters Know What They're Doing: Combat Tactics for Dungeon Masters (1): Ammann, Keith: 9781982122669: Amazon.com: Books


Also, *Thousand Year Old Vampire* has free community copies available on the Author's website.
Although it'd be really awesome if you could afford the $15 asking price for the PDFs.

Author's site link:
Thousand Year Old Vampire by timhutchings


These are the two that interested me the most.
_(And *Trilemma Adventures*... just check out those maps... it's amazing!)_


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## Espadadelaaurora (Aug 1, 2020)

Congratulations to all the winners and nominees, really great stuff in there!

Really happy for Free League and the Alien Rpg, absolutely love that game!.


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## imagineGod (Aug 1, 2020)

Should gold not be listed above silver if we follow the sporting standards like in the Olympic games?
Because, when I ran a quick search for Alien I saw it below Mork Borg and panicked (so Alien) then saw the silver and gold tagging.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Aug 1, 2020)

I have been DMing for decades, and The Monsters Know What They're Doing has been invaluable for me, especially when dealing with veteran players who are definitely going to wreck the monsters otherwise. The description of tactics and the culture and personality they imply are great.


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## imagineGod (Aug 2, 2020)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> I have been DMing for decades, and The Monsters Know What They're Doing has been invaluable for me, especially when dealing with veteran players who are definitely going to wreck the monsters otherwise. The description of tactics and the culture and personality they imply are great.



I was tempted to pick that up, then thought it was an old OSR type product and skipped it.  Now, will look into it again.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Aug 2, 2020)

No, it's all built on the 5E monster books. The website is free and definitely worth reading.


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## jaycrockett (Aug 2, 2020)

Can’t believe I didn’t know about Zombie World.  That’s like my dream game come true, rules wise.


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## Rygar (Aug 2, 2020)

Tyler Pickering said:


> I've never heard of or seen almost all of these products. Should I be delving more into these obscure RPGs?




Almost no one has, which is what makes this so incredibly bizarre.  The number of RPG players who could name anything on this list is probably vanishingly small.  

I have to wonder what the point of Ennies is if their nominees and winners are so disconnected from the market?  They can't even make the claim that they're "Introducing titles to the RPG masses" because they're so disconnected from the RPG masses that there's pretty much a 0% chance the average RPGer is going to think the Ennies are anything they should bother watching/reading.

Looking over their page, it's worse than I thought.  Not only all of the above, but their judges are a list of people no one knows and no real reason why they should, and their hosts are a list of people who aren't going to generate any excitement.

Just seems like a top to bottom mess.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Aug 2, 2020)

Rygar said:


> Almost no one has, which is what makes this so incredibly bizarre.  The number of RPG players who could name anything on this list is probably vanishingly small.



I don't think you should extrapolate your own experience out to cover all of gamerdom like that.

I don't consider myself an especially hardcore gamer and I knew the following products:

Kids on Bikes
Labyrinth
Deck of Many Animated Spells
RPG Writers Workshop
The Monsters Know What They're Doing
Mordenkainen's Fiendish Folio
Ultraviolet Grasslands
Uncaged
Mork Borg
Trilemma
Arkadia
Humblewood
Alien RPG
If you read the front page of EN World even once a week you would know almost all of those, and if you supplemented that by checking DMs Guild and Drive Thru RPG every few weeks to see what's new and hot, you would know all of them.

Most of these have been the focus of their own threads on ENWorld or RPG.net or both as well.

Based on write-ups at EN World, I now own Kids on Brooms (the magical school spin-off of Kids on Bikes) and have pre-ordered the Alien RPG starter set. I also am participating in the RPG Writers Workshop and routinely use the Monsters Know What They're Doing. I also threw a few bones to the indie publishers who came out with Mordenkainen's Fiendish Folio last year.


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## ruemere (Aug 2, 2020)

Rygar said:


> Almost no one has, which is what makes this so incredibly bizarre.  The number of RPG players who could name anything on this list is probably vanishingly small.
> 
> I have to wonder what the point of Ennies is if their nominees and winners are so disconnected from the market?  They can't even make the claim that they're "Introducing titles to the RPG masses" because they're so disconnected from the RPG masses that there's pretty much a 0% chance the average RPGer is going to think the Ennies are anything they should bother watching/reading.
> 
> ...



In that case this is a golden opportunity for you to broaden your perspective, and also to share something of your likes for this year. 

Note: I already own most of the stuff on this year's list.


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## Morrus (Aug 2, 2020)

Rygar said:


> I have to wonder what the point of Ennies is if their nominees and winners are so disconnected from the market?



To reward excellent creators for their work.


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## Eltab (Aug 2, 2020)

I found _The Monsters Know What They Are Doing_ at my public library.  I am giving serious thought to buying my own copy.

It's been so long since I could just wander into a hobby shop, I did not recognize much of anything else.


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## reelo (Aug 2, 2020)

One thing's certain: Fria Ligan/Free League is the next big player after WotC, Paizo, and Chaosium. They have a very solid lineup of games: Forbidden Lands, Tales from the Loop, Alien, The One Ring, Symbaorum, etc... All top-notch stuff!


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## imagineGod (Aug 2, 2020)

Rygar said:


> Almost no one has, which is what makes this so incredibly bizarre.  The number of RPG players who could name anything on this list is probably vanishingly small.
> 
> I have to wonder what the point of Ennies is if their nominees and winners are so disconnected from the market?  They can't even make the claim that they're "Introducing titles to the RPG masses" because they're so disconnected from the RPG masses that there's pretty much a 0% chance the average RPGer is going to think the Ennies are anything they should bother watching/reading.
> 
> ...



Probably because anything and everything that expects greater adoption by the common player demographic is being made with the D&D 5th Edition OGL.

I just heard that the old award winning *Midnight RPG* is getting a new release, but the company, Edge Entertainment, that took over the* Genesys ruleset* will not be using Genesys, but instead opted for, you guessed it, D&D 5th Edition.









						D&D 5E - Midnight: Legacy of Darkness announced at GenCon Online
					

After more than a decade out of print, the "what if Sauron won" 3E setting Midnight is coming back in 2021 for 5E as Midnight: Legacy of Darkness, Edge Entertainment announced Thursday, July 30, at GenCon Online:    In its heyday, Midnight was one of the biggest RPG successes in Fantasy Flight's...




					www.enworld.org
				




So in a way, I am happy that Free League won an ENnie for their Alien RPG, since it uses a different d6 dice pool called the Year Zero Engine, which is perfectly fine tuned for the Alien RPG experience (try it if you have not yet had the chance).


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## imagineGod (Aug 2, 2020)

reelo said:


> One thing's certain: Fria Ligan/Free League is the next big player after WotC, Paizo, and Chaosium. They have a very solid lineup of games: Forbidden Lands, Tales from the Loop, Alien, The One Ring, Symbaorum, etc... All top-notch stuff!



And their recently delivered Vaesen (based on dark Nordic horror stories) and newly announced Twilight 2000 reboot.





__





						Fria Ligan | Twilight: 2000
					






					frialigan.se


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## Morrus (Aug 2, 2020)

imagineGod said:


> I just heard that the old award winning *Midnight RPG* is getting a new release, but the company, Edge Entertainment, that took over the* Genesys ruleset* will not be using Genesys, but instead opted for, you guessed it, D&D 5th Edition.



Well, to be fair, it was originally a D&D setting.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Aug 2, 2020)

.


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## SavageCole (Aug 2, 2020)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> I have been DMing for decades, and The Monsters Know What They're Doing has been invaluable for me, especially when dealing with veteran players who are definitely going to wreck the monsters otherwise. The description of tactics and the culture and personality they imply are great.




While I’d seen the title mentioned, seeing that this book netted an Ennie and seeing your comments and others, I went ahead and bought this book today.  

These awards are not the Nobel prize, but they DO mean something.   I know people who look to these awards to guide them in navigating the glut of RPG products out there.  To separate the wheat from the chaff.  Most years, I‘ve already owned a few of these games before the nominations even come out (this year no exception).   There’s one way I see Ennies impacting my buying decision.  They usually tip me over the edge to go ahead with a buy.  You see, at any time there are like a dozen gaming products that I’m interested in that I don’t buy — unless something gives me that little extra nudge.  That can be a sale, a great review, actual play performance, or an award like this one.


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## Maggan (Aug 2, 2020)

Rygar said:


> I have to wonder what the point of Ennies is if their nominees and winners are so disconnected from the market?  They can't even make the claim that they're "Introducing titles to the RPG masses" because they're so disconnected from the RPG masses that there's pretty much a 0% chance the average RPGer ...




If we set the bar at ”most people aware of product” only D&D would win anything. Which is a totally different flaw in an awards process.


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## MNblockhead (Aug 2, 2020)

Just bought The Monsters Know What They're Doing, look like just what I need as I DM for veteran players.


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## Arilyn (Aug 2, 2020)

Congratulations to all the winners. Great crop this year!


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Aug 2, 2020)

SavageCole said:


> These awards are not the Nobel prize, but they DO mean something.   I know people who look to these awards to guide them in navigating the glut of RPG products out there.  To separate the wheat from the chaff.



I literally just used the Hugo Awards this way the other day.

And after the Ennie nominations came out, I put the print edition of Thousand Year Old Vampire on my Noble Knight wishlist so I would remember to grab it when it came back into print. (I know there's a PDF, but it seems like, for that game, having an actual artifact in your hands will be a big part of the experience.)


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Aug 2, 2020)

MNblockhead said:


> Just bought The Monsters Know What They're Doing, look like just what I need as I DM for veteran players.



Prepare for surprised players.


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## dragoner (Aug 2, 2020)

Congrats to the winners! The awards ceremony and after parties is often a fun event.



Rygar said:


> Almost no one has ...




You haven't heard of Mork Borg or Alien?


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## MidnightBlue (Aug 2, 2020)

imagineGod said:


> Probably because anything and everything that expects greater adoption by the common player demographic is being made with the D&D 5th Edition OGL.
> 
> I just heard that the old award winning *Midnight RPG* is getting a new release, but the company, Edge Entertainment, that took over the* Genesys ruleset* will not be using Genesys, but instead opted for, you guessed it, D&D 5th Edition.
> 
> ...





I hadn't heard about a new Midnight RPG edition.  I still have 1E & 2E.  Great setting.  I like Dawnforge as well.  Though having moved away from D&D/Pathfinder/OGL 3.0-5.0 for the most part, not sure it is worth me grabbing.  But now I know to keep a lookout for it.  Thanks!


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## Tyler Pickering (Aug 2, 2020)

The Monsters Knows book was great and some of the supplements like Loke Battlemats I loved as well. I play Pathfinder 2E and love it and thats what matters to me. I am going to check out some of these other games but I still feel like the Ennies should be more inclusive of the bigger name titles if they deserve to be on that list.


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## MidnightBlue (Aug 2, 2020)

I admit, much like the Oscars, I seldom have a good knowledge base for most of the nominations...and it was the same for me again this year.  It was VERY recently that I learned of Mork Borg when I became a backer in their latest Kickstarter.  Of course I knew Aliens, Call of Cthulhu, D&D, & Pathfinder, but of all the products listed only actually had the Aliens RPG, Labryinth RPG, and Kids on Bikes RPG, I think...still waiting on Mork Borg to deliver.  So most of these products and producers were new to me and it was hard to vote, not knowing the competition.

I blame the new Kickstarter/crowd-funding world we live in for the RPG industry.  There was a time, and it feels so long ago, where I would have recognized nearly every nomination because it would have passed through the shelves of my FLGS and I would have at least picked it up and browsed, even if I didn't buy that particular game.  I really do miss that.  There are so many great games out there that I'll never know about now, because I didn't happen to trip and fall into their Kickstarter.  I love the plethora of games and the larger indie market that crowd-funding allows, but there is a measure of sadness when I see how small my FLGS' RPG section is now that not as many games go to retail through them.

But there were a couple of bright spots for me in this years' ENnies list:

1. I'm a big Free Leagues (Fria Ligan) backer/supporter, so nice to see them getting some serious love this year.

2. I discovered and purchased Thousand Year Old Vampire thanks to the rewards' callout.  Waiting on my physical book, but looking forward to it.

3. I was so happy to see the H. P. Lovecraft Historical Society in the list of Fan Favorite Publishers, even if they didn't win.  I purchased all of their Dark Adventures Radio Theatre radio dramas this year (I have 2 more to listen to out of more than 20).  I've purchased a bunch of their other items as well and REALLY hope that they get to partner up with Chaosium and do DART radio dramas for "Horror on the Orient Express" and "Beyond the Mountains of Madness" like they did with "Masks of Nyarlathotep" and another CoC scenario that I can't recall this second.  So happy shout out to HPLHS!  If you are looking for some truly amazing premium props for your Call of Cthulhu games, HPL products, or some great and fun radio dramas, check them out: HPLHS - The H.P. Lovecraft Historical Society  (I'm not affiliated other than being a customer and fan.)

Either way, congrats to all the nominees and winners!


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## MNblockhead (Aug 2, 2020)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> Prepare for surprised players.




So I bought the physical book on Amazon and it will be delivered by tomorrow night, then are started reading the look-inside pages that are available on Amazon and I couldn't wait until tomorrow and got the Kindle version as well.  This is the first D&D related purchase in a while that I'm sure I'll read through and refer back to a lot. 

This is why I like awards like the Ennies. I'm not looking for confirmation that the purchases I made are "good" but to a way to learn about materials I would otherwise overlook. There is so much content out there that I end up sticking to creators who I know deliver.  I don't even both browsing Drive Thru RPG or DMs Guild any more. Just too much stuff. But I'll browse something like the Ennies awards where others have put together a process to sort the wheat from the chaff and sometimes I find something I didn't know I "needed" or am learn about a new system that sounds cool and has good reviews from folks whose opinions and taste a trust enough to take a gamble on something new.


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## MNblockhead (Aug 2, 2020)

MidnightBlue said:


> I blame the new Kickstarter/crowd-funding world we live in for the RPG industry.  There was a time, and it feels so long ago, where I would have recognized nearly every nomination because it would have passed through the shelves of my FLGS and I would have at least picked it up and browsed, even if I didn't buy that particular game.  I really do miss that.  There are so many great games out there that I'll never know about now, because I didn't happen to trip and fall into their Kickstarter.  I love the plethora of games and the larger indie market that crowd-funding allows, but there is a measure of sadness when I see how small my FLGS' RPG section is now that not as many games go to retail through them.




For me Kickstarter has replaced browsing through the game store, especially board games. I browse KS at least once per week, no matter where I am in the world. Even before COVID, and even if I spent most of my time at home in the USA, I would not get to my FLGS once a week.  And the game store I would go to frequently was the Fantasy Flight Game Center, which has a more limited selection than some of the more traditional stores. I went to the FFGC because of the play space, good food, and convenient location.  

This has led to me generally knowing more about the more popular independent products and missing new publications and games from the more established companies.  I pretty much rely on EN World to fill in the gaps as it is pretty much the only source of gaming news that I frequent.


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## MGibster (Aug 2, 2020)

Tyler Pickering said:


> I've never heard of or seen almost all of these products. Should I be delving more into these obscure RPGs?




I made a similar comment in the previous thread regarding this year's nominations.  More specifically, I compared it to the discrepancy between movies nominated for Oscars and what most people have actually seen.  But, yes, apparently we should be checking them out as many people here recommend some of them.  I can attest that Aliens is a very good game...not that I've gotten to play it yet.


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## MGibster (Aug 2, 2020)

Maggan said:


> If we set the bar at ”most people aware of product” only D&D would win anything. Which is a totally different flaw in an awards process.




Twenty-five years ago we probably would have seen many of these in our local game store.  I first became acquainted with Kids on Bikes because it was on the shelf of my FLGS here.  But times change, and most games stores I visit today have a very limited selection of RPGs available.  From a business perspective it just doesn't make sense to stock a wide variety apparently.


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## Skywalker (Aug 2, 2020)

Rygar said:


> Almost no one has, which is what makes this so incredibly bizarre.  The number of RPG players who could name anything on this list is probably vanishingly small.




In comparison, I thought this year's winners were actually representative of the wider hobby with a strong focus on quality. Sure, no one is going to know them all, especially as they have to be released in the last 12 month, but most RPGers are going to know a good number given they all have a good amount of buzz surrounding them.


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## Morrus (Aug 2, 2020)

Skywalker said:


> In comparison, I thought this year's winners were actually representative of the wider hobby with a strong focus on quality. Sure, no one is going to know them all, especially as they have to be released in the last 12 month, but most RPGers are going to know a good number given they all have a good amount of buzz surrounding them.



It's not supposed to be a list of games you've heard of. You can make that list yourself!


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## dragoner (Aug 3, 2020)

I haven't heard of a lot of stuff and it's not surprising because I am not in the know kind of person. So these awards do help to go check stuff out.

For the people objecting to them, what products do they think should have won instead?


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## hawkeyefan (Aug 3, 2020)

Tyler Pickering said:


> I've never heard of or seen almost all of these products. Should I be delving more into these obscure RPGs?




Yes!

I’m not aware of every game that comes out, but I try to pay attention to as much as I can. I was familiar with many of the nominees, and own several. I’ll be picking up a few more now, too.


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## hawkeyefan (Aug 3, 2020)

Rygar said:


> Almost no one has, which is what makes this so incredibly bizarre.  The number of RPG players who could name anything on this list is probably vanishingly small.
> 
> I have to wonder what the point of Ennies is if their nominees and winners are so disconnected from the market?  They can't even make the claim that they're "Introducing titles to the RPG masses" because they're so disconnected from the RPG masses that there's pretty much a 0% chance the average RPGer is going to think the Ennies are anything they should bother watching/reading.
> 
> ...




If you don’t recognize any of the nominees at all....then what games would you even suggest?  

And the hosts are all accomplished RPG folks, a couple well established, and some more recent. I believe that Chris Spivey was a big winner last year. But I suppose you wouldn’t remember that. 

Honestly, if you don’t recognize any of the nominees and you aren’t impressed by the hosts....then I’m not really sure your view on games should matter all that much.


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## Stormonu (Aug 3, 2020)

Hmm.  Nothing from Piazo for PF/PF2/Starfinder, and only one product (and PDF at that) for WotC.  Interesting times.

I am glad to see Alien got best RPG.  That game deserves it.  I have a Kids on Bike free RPG day book in front of me, but I have found I like the tone of Tales from the Loop much better and hope we'll see it on next year's list of winners.


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## dave2008 (Aug 3, 2020)

I have read the Monster's Know What They are doing website / blog a few times.  The fact that the book is only $15 on amazon and a get free 1-day shipping made it a easy purchase for me.  Thank you for whomever pointed that out up thread.


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## dave2008 (Aug 3, 2020)

Rygar said:


> Almost no one has, which is what makes this so incredibly bizarre.  The number of RPG players who could name anything on this list is probably vanishingly small.
> 
> I have to wonder what the point of Ennies is if their nominees and winners are so disconnected from the market?  They can't even make the claim that they're "Introducing titles to the RPG masses" because they're so disconnected from the RPG masses that there's pretty much a 0% chance the average RPGer is going to think the Ennies are anything they should bother watching/reading.
> 
> ...



IDK, I'm not very well informed and I only play D&D (so that is generally my RPG focus) and I have heard of several of these.  This seems more like a you issue than an Ennies issue.


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## JediSoth (Aug 3, 2020)

Stormonu said:


> Hmm.  Nothing from Piazo for PF/PF2/Starfinder, and only one product (and PDF at that) for WotC.  Interesting times.
> 
> I am glad to see Alien got best RPG.  That game deserves it.  I have a Kids on Bike free RPG day book in front of me, but I have found I like the tone of Tales from the Loop much better and hope we'll see it on next year's list of winners.




IIRC, neither Paizo nor Wizards of the Coast submitted products. One of the criteria for a nomination (to say nothing of a win) is that a publisher must submit their products.


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## hawkeyefan (Aug 3, 2020)

JediSoth said:


> IIRC, neither Paizo nor Wizards of the Coast submitted products. One of the criteria for a nomination (to say nothing of a win) is that a publisher must submit their products.




Yeah, that’s my understanding, as well. I believe WotC has done that for some time now. I didn’t know Paizo also did it, but it makes sense if that’s indeed the case. 

Neither of them need the exposure that winning an Ennie may bring, but smaller publishers may benefit from an award win. I know that I’ve picked up several products after becoming aware of them because of Ennie nominations.


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## dave2008 (Aug 3, 2020)

JediSoth said:


> IIRC, neither Paizo nor Wizards of the Coast submitted products. One of the criteria for a nomination (to say nothing of a win) is that a publisher must submit their products.



I thought that was the case - thank you for clarifying.


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## dave2008 (Aug 3, 2020)

Rygar said:


> Almost no one has, which is what makes this so incredibly bizarre.  The number of RPG players who could name anything on this list is probably vanishingly small.
> 
> I have to wonder what the point of Ennies is if their nominees and winners are so disconnected from the market?  They can't even make the claim that they're "Introducing titles to the RPG masses" because they're so disconnected from the RPG masses that there's pretty much a 0% chance the average RPGer is going to think the Ennies are anything they should bother watching/reading.
> 
> ...



PS as noted here, a publisher must submit a product to be nominated.  Paizo and WotC didn't submit.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Aug 3, 2020)

dave2008 said:


> PS as noted here, a publisher must submit a product to be nominated.  Paizo and WotC didn't submit.



Well, someone submitted Mordenkainen's.


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## Tyler Pickering (Aug 3, 2020)

Is there a reason they do not submit their products?


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## Stormonu (Aug 3, 2020)

Stormonu said:


> Hmm.  Nothing from Piazo for PF/PF2/Starfinder, and only one product (and PDF at that) for WotC.  Interesting times.
> 
> I am glad to see Alien got best RPG.  That game deserves it.  I have a Kids on Bike free RPG day book in front of me, but I have found I like the tone of Tales from the Loop much better and hope we'll see it on next year's list of winners.




Wow, I feel foolish.  My Tales from the Loop rulebook just came in with a big 'ol sticker on it saying it won an Ennie in 2017.  Didn't realize it had been around that long.

Also interesting to know the _publisher_ has to submit their product for consideration.  Thought others could submit it for nomination.


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## Waller (Aug 3, 2020)

Tyler Pickering said:


> Is there a reason they do not submit their products?



Green Ronin too. Kobold Press. Looks like everybody in Seattle.

Edit, Monte Cook Games too, also from Seattle.


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## Tyler Pickering (Aug 3, 2020)

I would take the awards more seriously if these other publishers products were in it. I'm not going to naughty word on these winners and I am going to check out the Alien RPG but the fact this is more like an "Indie" award does take away something whatever that may be.


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## Maggan (Aug 3, 2020)

Tyler Pickering said:


> Is there a reason they do not submit their products?




I think it is because it is a lose/lose situation for them.

If they win they get flack for crowding out the smaller publishers, and the awards get flack for awarding market reach over quality.
If they lose, they get flack for publishing bad products that can be beaten by small indie publishers.
The above applies regardless of the quality of the products submitted.

So it is a lot easier to just sit the awards out. But that could be conjecture on my part, after reading between the lines previous years.


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## Waller (Aug 3, 2020)

Maggan said:


> I think it is because it is a lose/lose situation for them.
> 
> If they win they get flack for crowding out the smaller publishers, and the awards get flack for awarding market reach over quality.
> If they lose, they get flack for publishing bad products that can be beaten by small indie publishers.
> ...



Wizards are in the UK Games Expo awards and Pathfinder 2E was in the Origins awards.


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## Maggan (Aug 3, 2020)

Corrosive said:


> Wizards are in the UK Games Expo awards and Pathfinder 2E was in the Origins awards.




Interesting. So why wouldn't they submit to the ENnies, do you think?


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## dave2008 (Aug 3, 2020)

Tyler Pickering said:


> Is there a reason they do not submit their products?



not sure, but they used too. It started (or stopped I guess) a few years back.  Some time after the release of 5e IIRC.


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## dave2008 (Aug 3, 2020)

Tyler Pickering said:


> I would take the awards more seriously if these other publishers products were in it. I'm not going to naughty word on these winners and I am going to check out the Alien RPG but the fact this is more like an "Indie" award does take away something whatever that may be.



As I noted previously, it was only fairly recently they stopped submitting products. Not sure why the big publishers stopped, but WotC and Paizo used to regularly win some Ennies.


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## Haffrung (Aug 3, 2020)

So essentially, the Ennies are the independent small-press RPG awards. Any reason they don't just call them that? 

It is strange that the six or seven largest RPG publisher recuse themselves from the only RPG industry awards. It would be like if the only movies nominated for Academy Awards were independent films that only had limited release on 100 or fewer screens, or the Pulitzers were only open to books that sold fewer than 10k copies. 

I guess industry leaders feel giving publicity to small publishers is more worthwhile than recognizing excellence in the field. But even if that's the case, the boost is probably negligible, along the lines of selling 700 copies of a product instead of 400. It all seems like inside baseball at that point, and nothing really to do with average gamers at all. And no, people who read this forum daily and buy multiple indie RPG books a year are not average gamers.


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## dave2008 (Aug 3, 2020)

Haffrung said:


> So essentially, the Ennies are the independent small-press RPG awards. Any reason they don't just call them that?
> 
> It is strange that the six or seven largest RPG publisher recuse themselves from the only RPG industry awards. It would be like if the only movies nominated for Academy Awards were independent films that only had limited release on 100 or fewer screens, or the Pulitzers were only open to books that sold fewer than 10k copies.
> 
> I guess industry leaders feel giving publicity to small publishers is more worthwhile than recognizing excellence in the field. But even if that's the case, the boost is probably negligible, along the lines of selling 700 copies of a product instead of 400. It all seems like inside baseball at that point, and nothing really to do with average gamers at all. And no, people who read this forum daily and buy multiple indie RPG books a year are not average gamers.



Agreed, but average gamers don't know anything about RPG awards either.  I mean i just learned in this thread that Origins gives out an RPG award and that  event takes place in my hometown!

Also, the big publishers were involved with the ennies until very recently. Not sure why this has changed, but I am curious to know.


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## Maggan (Aug 3, 2020)

Haffrung said:


> But even if that's the case, the boost is probably negligible, along the lines of selling 700 copies of a product instead of 400.




If I was a small publisher that had my sales almost doubled from receiving an award, I'd be happy as a clam!


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## hawkeyefan (Aug 3, 2020)

Pure conjecture on my part, but I know that WotC also does not attend GenCon in any official capacity. Maybe the Ennies being awarded at GenCon has something to do with that?

Regardless, though....I’m glad that’s the case. Do people really need to find out about Theros or Pathfinder 2 through the Ennies? No, not at all. These products are well known, and constantly discussed and debated here on this site and similar places.

And to be honest, even here on EN World, a place frequented by avid gamers, anything that’s not D&D or D&D adjacent still goes unnoticed by a significant amount of posters.

Let the Ennies highlight excellent games that folks might not otherwise be aware of. These products deserve attention. Let them get some spotlight.


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## Arilyn (Aug 3, 2020)

To me, it feels like games are more likely to be judged on their own merits. With WOTC and Paizo not involved, there is not a huge bloc of voting going to DnD products, simply because too many voters had little or no exposure to other games.


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## Morrus (Aug 3, 2020)

hawkeyefan said:


> Regardless, though....I’m glad that’s the case. Do people really need to find out about Theros or Pathfinder 2 through the Ennies? No, not at all. These products are well known, and constantly discussed and debated here on this site and similar places.




Not that I speak for the ENnies' current goals, but when I was involved 'finding out about stuff' or 'sales' weren't a factor in why we did it; didn't even enter our heads. We assumed companies had that stuff under control and we made no claims of affecting sales (and neither would we want to).

It was for the creators (not the publishers per se, but the individual writers, artists, etc.) who got to be_ award-winning_ writers and artists. I never once met somebody walk off that ENnies stage not feeling on top of the world, at least for that day. No matter how cynical you are, winning an award feels good. And the internet can be kinda crappy to creators.

It was a way to reward people and say 'thank you'. When a company entered, it was for the benefit of their creators. Open up an RPG book and look at the list of names in the credits. Those people, who get to have 'award winning RPG designer' on their wikipedia page.


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## hawkeyefan (Aug 3, 2020)

Morrus said:


> Not that I speak for the ENnies' current goals, but when I was involved 'finding out about stuff' or 'sales' weren't a factor in why we did it; didn't even enter our heads. We assumed companies had that stuff under control and we made no claims of affecting sales (and neither would we want to).
> 
> It was for the creators (not the publishers per se, but the individual writers, artists, etc.) who got to be_ award-winning_ writers and artists. I never once met somebody walk off that ENnies stage not feeling on top of the world, at least for that day. No matter how cynical you are, winning an award feels good. And the internet can be kinda crappy to creators.
> 
> It was a way to reward people and say 'thank you'. When a company entered, it was for the benefit of their creators. Open up an RPG book and look at the list of names in the credits. Those people, who get to have 'award winning RPG designer' on their wikipedia page.




That’s great to hear, and absolutely makes sense from a judge’s point of view.

I’m speaking solely as a spectator and consumer. I’ve definitely paid attention to the Ennies the past few years specifically because I feel that strong products are nominated. I always try to pick up a few of the nominated games. 

Which likely reflects the kind of selection process you’re talking about! I feel like I’ll be getting a product that’s likely to contain quality work.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Aug 4, 2020)

Haffrung said:


> So essentially, the Ennies are the independent small-press RPG awards. Any reason they don't just call them that?



Because they're open to everyone.

What if, let's pretend, only left-handed people submitted entries to the Ennies. Would you like them to relabel their awards in response?


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Aug 4, 2020)

Haffrung said:


> It would be like if the only movies nominated for Academy Awards were independent films that only had limited release on 100 or fewer screens, or the Pulitzers were only open to books that sold fewer than 10k copies.
> 
> I guess industry leaders feel giving publicity to small publishers is more worthwhile than recognizing excellence in the field. But even if that's the case, the boost is probably negligible, along the lines of selling 700 copies of a product instead of 400. It all seems like inside baseball at that point, and nothing really to do with average gamers at all. And no, people who read this forum daily and buy multiple indie RPG books a year are not average gamers.



You've got some strange ideas on book sales numbers. (Also, are most people focused on the Pulitzers for _books_?)  The game titles that were finalists and winners for Ennies all sold more than 700 copies before this point. And even established novelists have a hard time selling more than 10k copies.

Again, folks, please stop extrapolating _your _personal experiences and tastes to somehow being representative of the industry. You aren't a bad person for not giving a crap about stuff you don't give a crap about, but that doesn't mean the rest of the world needs to have the same tastes.

If you, for whatever reason, aren't interested in games that aren't made by Paizo or Wizards of the Coast anyway, do you really need awards to recognize them? Just go buy some gold stickers and put them on the covers of your copies.


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## MGibster (Aug 4, 2020)

The Ennies are s pretty good representation of the gaming landscape.  There are just so many games available to choose from these days.  You might not find them at your FLGS, but you can buy them online.


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## Haffrung (Aug 4, 2020)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> Again, folks, please stop extrapolating _your _personal experiences and tastes to somehow being representative of the industry. You aren't a bad person for not giving a crap about stuff you don't give a crap about, but that doesn't mean the rest of the world needs to have the same tastes.




As someone who spends a lot of time on RPG forums and has heard of several of the nominated games, I'm well aware my experience is not representative of the wider RPG public. Everyone on this forum, heck pretty much everyone who has even heard of the Ennies, makes up a tiny and unrepresentative sample of the RPG player and buyer base, which is estimated to number in the millions. 

I'm not making a value statement. Popularity and awareness have little correlation to quality (assuming we can even agree on what quality means). I don't see why it's necessary or dispute comments pointing out how few people play the games nominated. The local indie bands in my city struggle to get more than 50 or 60 people out to a live show. Doesn't mean they aren't great bands. It _does_ mean they aren't popular if 95 per cent even of live music fans have never heard of them.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Aug 4, 2020)

For the record, comparing these products to local indie bands is a real disservice to the RPG creators involved.

There are thousands of people playing Mork Borg, for instance. (500-999 PDF sales in English at DriveThruRPG, plus 1,152 folks from the Kickstarter, plus all the folks who've bought it through retail outlets, which are numbers that only Free League will know, at the end of the day.)

Uncaged III is a Platinum seller at DriveThruRPG, which means it has sold between one to two thousand copies (comparable to WotC's lone entry on the list, interestingly).

Most indie bands would be pretty happy with either of those numbers. I know musicians who still can't unload all the cassettes they all had optimistically made back in the day.

If the only stuff that should be considered for major awards is stuff that sells in the millions, there's only a handful of products that are eligible _ever_ in the RPG space. WotC has said that most people buy the core books and then just make up in their own content, so the multi-million seller list is likely very, very small. I don't think the Ennies should just keep giving the 5E PHB an award every year.


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## dragoner (Aug 5, 2020)

I still haven't seen any products put forth by the complainers that they think should have won.


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