# Doctor Who s8e12: Death in Heaven  [spoilers]



## Morrus (Nov 8, 2014)

About to start! I'm excited! An extra-long one-hour episode!

Why did Clara Oswald never exist? UNIT! Will Danny return? Is Missy really the Master? We find out very soon!


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## Morrus (Nov 8, 2014)

TARDIS skydive rescue - awesome!

Danny able to give orders to all the Cybermen - rubbish.

Doctor executing Master - I don't think he did. Different SFX. 

That finding Gallifrey thing? So she was lying after all?

Nick Frost is Santa!

Why use a plane when you have a TARDIS?


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## MarkB (Nov 8, 2014)

Morrus said:


> TARDIS skydive rescue - awesome!
> 
> Danny able to give orders to all the Cybermen - rubbish.
> 
> ...




Why did you think it was rubbish that Danny could command all the Cybermen? It seemed to make sense continuity-wise - he was given their control bracelet, from the hand of their previous commander - and plot-wise it worked too, making a fitting end to Danny's plot arc.

It seemed pretty obvious that the Doctor teleported Missy rather than killing her.

I was really sad that the UNIT scientist girl died - she was always a bit of a fandom stand-in, but still, a good character, and resourceful in a crisis.


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## Morrus (Nov 8, 2014)

MarkB said:


> Why did you think it was rubbish that Danny could command all the Cybermen? It seemed to make sense continuity-wise - he was given their control bracelet, from the hand of their previous commander - and plot-wise it worked too, making a fitting end to Danny's plot arc.




Ah. Maybe I missed something? I don't recall Danny getting the bracelet. 



> It seemed pretty obvious that the Doctor teleported Missy rather than killing her.




My wife says Danny shot her to save the Doctor getting his hands dirty. I'll have to rewatch.


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## MarkB (Nov 8, 2014)

Morrus said:


> Ah. Maybe I missed something? I don't recall Danny getting the bracelet.




Yeah, the Doctor threw it to him. Pretty much his epiphany - he realised that he knew one person he could trust with an army, and it wasn't himself.



> My wife says Danny shot her to save the Doctor getting his hands dirty. I'll have to rewatch.




So will I. There was a cyberman there at the end, but it wasn't Danny - he'd already blown himself up in the cloud. If the cyberman did shoot Missy, then it was the Brigadier - but again, it seemed like the wrong special effect for that.


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## Morrus (Nov 8, 2014)

MarkB said:


> Yeah, the Doctor threw it to him. Pretty much his epiphany - he realised that he knew one person he could trust with an army, and it wasn't himself.
> 
> 
> 
> So will I. There was a cyberman there at the end, but it wasn't Danny - he'd already blown himself up in the cloud. If the cyberman did shoot Missy, then it was the Brigadier - but again, it seemed like the wrong special effect for that.




I agree it was a different SFX.


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## Plane Sailing (Nov 9, 2014)

I thought it was supposed to look like the brigadier cyberman shot missy, although I don't know that we ever saw the cybermen with disintegrators.  Certainly the doctor was holding missy's device end on rather than upright, and upright was the disintegration mode. 

You do see the doctor clearly tossing the bracelet to Danny. 

I thought the lie at the beginning from Clara was potentially very interesting. The mutual lies to each other at the end was quite touching.


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## Staffan (Nov 9, 2014)

Morrus said:


> I agree it was a different SFX.




Yeah, it was clearly the same FX used for teleporting earlier. Which is good, because I want to see Missy again.


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## Morrus (Nov 9, 2014)

The trailer fakeouts are annoying.

Don't get me wrong - I don't want trailers to spoil surprises. But pretending there is an awesome twist and there just not turning out to be one is vey underwhelming. Doing it twice is more so.

Clara doing the whole "you'll never set foot in your TARDIS again" and "Clara Oswald never existed!" led me to believe cool things were ahead. A dream sequence and a  momentary bluff were... anticlimactic.

That's an issue with the trailers though. I enjoyed the episode.

So - she was lying about Gallifrey's location, right?


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## Morrus (Nov 9, 2014)

Plane Sailing said:


> I
> 
> You do see the doctor clearly tossing the bracelet to Danny.




Rewatching, yep. You do. They totally Phantom Menaced it!


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## Raunalyn (Nov 9, 2014)

I really liked Missy...I do hope they bring her back. Michelle Gomez really looked like she was enjoying herself.


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## trappedslider (Nov 9, 2014)

Raunalyn said:


> I really liked Missy...I do hope they bring her back. Michelle Gomez really looked like she was enjoying herself.




Ham and Cheese soo much..I'm surprised some of those headstones didn't have bite marks lol


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## Jester David (Nov 9, 2014)

Morrus said:


> My wife says Danny shot her to save the Doctor getting his hands dirty. I'll have to rewatch.



Like [MENTION=40176]MarkB[/MENTION] I assumed it was the Cyberman assumed to be the Brigadier keeping the Doctor's hands clean. 
But the FX did look more like a teleport. They could have just reused the SFX (those are pricey) or deliberately used that one to allow room to bring back the Master. 

But, while neat, the Brigadier semi-returning felt deux ex machnica. (Heh. A deus ex machina cyberman. Heh.) It was kinda foreshadowed and it makes total sense but it's so abrupt. Still, any excuse to namedrop Lethbridge-Stewart is fine by me.


I liked the mutual lying at the end. Such a different way for companions departing. 

Despite being extra long it felt like there were some bits missing.
I felt there was a scene missing between the graveyard and Clara's room where the Doctor explains that someone could come back. Likely cut for time/pacing but awkward from a story purpose. But I liked Danny sacrificing his life to return the boy he killed. That was such a nice bit of his overall character arc.
Perhaps that's also where the Doctor explained how Danny could retain his emotion. Unless the whole "promise" thing was meant to imply cybermen could always do it. Which feels like a cop out as it just means every other cyberman in the show just didn't love enough.

I loved the Doctor being President of Earth and mocking the Master for how easy it was. 

The name of the episode is a fun line. Death in Heaven. Referencing both the afterlife and the fact there's deadly cyber-pollen in the sky. 

I liked the UNIT scientist (whose name I had to Google: it's Osgood). The scene with her and the Master was... hard to watch.

I'm okay with the trailer fake-outs. Too often they spoil things (*cough* cybermen *cough*) so I liked this one. Especially since it was revealed so early. And I enjoyed Coleman getting top billing and her eyes being in the opening rather than Capaldi's.


This season was really about the Doctor discovering who he was. We didn't just get a single episode regeneration but a full season of discovery. The tension between the Doctor and the military, culminating with him being ruler of earth and leader of a cyber army. I think we've set up Capaldi for a good place next season.

I'm hoping for a couple companions again. I prefer an ensemble in the TARDIS and like the Doctor, male companion, female companion dynamic of the early Doctors.


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## Ryujin (Nov 9, 2014)

I enjoyed this episode more than I have most of the others, this season. The 'soldier's promise' was a particularly nice point, especially coming up on Remembrance Day. The PE teacher got to go out in style. 

I agree that the SFX used looked more like a teleport that disintegration, though The Doctor was also meant to think that Missy was gone. He immediately started looking for who actually fired the 'shot.'


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## Morrus (Nov 9, 2014)

I think I missed something somewhere, despite two watchings now.  Still it's an excuse for a third!

Why was Danny able to override his Cyberman programming?  And why was the Brigadier able to, also? Is the implication that love overrides the programming?  In that case, presumably the majority of people love somebody - why don't all the Cybermen overcome their programming?  Or was the love of those two greater than that of everyone else?  

Or am I just missing a plot point?

If you have a TARDIS and your have a plane, is your optimal mobile headquarters the plane?  Why wasn't his first order "Right, everyone into the TARDIS!"

Missy still had her disintegrator on her after being captured?  Did they not check her for weapons?  The Doctor was OK with her being left alone with a couple of guards despite knowing she's the friggin' _Master_?

Hmmm.  More I think about it, the more questions I have. That's not good. On the plus side I LOVED Michelle Gomez.  I really hope she's still around. I thought she was hilarious in _Green Wing_, and she's wonderful in _Doctor Who_.


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## Umbran (Nov 9, 2014)

Morrus said:


> Danny able to give orders to all the Cybermen - rubbish.




"PE!  Catch!"  The Doctor threw the bracelet to Danny. (which you got already.  Nevermind!)



> Doctor executing Master - I don't think he did. Different SFX.




It was the Brigadier, or so we are led to think.



> That finding Gallifrey thing? So she was lying after all?




Yep.  Thus setting us up for the Gift of the Magi at the end - each giving up something so the other can be happy.

Which, of course, brings in Nick Frost - terribly appropriate for the Gift of the Magi ending.  I love that they got a guy named Frost for that role


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## Umbran (Nov 9, 2014)

Morrus said:


> Why was Danny able to override his Cyberman programming?  And why was the Brigadier able to, also?




"Because love, it's not an emotion. Love is a promise..."

Which is a call-out to John Lennon, “Love is a promise, love is a souvenir, once given never forgotten, never let it disappear.”



> In that case, presumably the majority of people love somebody - why don't all the Cybermen overcome their programming?




In the immediate case - because the majority of the dead have been dead for decades, centuries,or millennia.  The people they love are themselves dead. 

In general... um, because they don't care about the plot hole this presents  

Or, for the No Prize... because for it to kick in, the cyberman must 1) have incredible will (Danny, the Brigadier) and 2) be in close proximity to someone they loved before being made a cyberman.  There is precedent for resisting Cyberman-assimilation in Matt Smith's episode "Nightmare in Silver".

Or, for another No-Prize:  The process by which Missy made cyberman is different than other cybermen we've seen, so the statement doesn't generally hold at all. 




> If you have a TARDIS and your have a plane, is your optimal mobile headquarters the plane?  Why wasn't his first order "Right, everyone into the TARDIS!"




1) Do you take the Master into a TARDIS?  Really?

2) UNIT Protocols

3) As previously discussed (though, we disagree on the point) the TARDIS' ability to go exactly where the Doctor wants is unreliable.  If he slips even hours ahead, to after the rain falls, he cannot go back and make it not fall without creating paradox.  



> Missy still had her disintegrator on her after being captured?




The tech with the glasses and bow tie had it on the desk, and was working on it.  Missy gets free, comes up to the desk, and while the tech is distracted, Missy picks it up.



> The Doctor was OK with her being left alone with a couple of guards despite knowing she's the friggin' _Master_?




Well, what else does he do?  Keep watch personally, and thus get nothing else done?  Will a *million* guards be sufficient?  It is the Master, after all...


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## MarkB (Nov 9, 2014)

Morrus said:


> I think I missed something somewhere, despite two watchings now.  Still it's an excuse for a third!
> 
> Why was Danny able to override his Cyberman programming?  And why was the Brigadier able to, also? Is the implication that love overrides the programming?  In that case, presumably the majority of people love somebody - why don't all the Cybermen overcome their programming?  Or was the love of those two greater than that of everyone else?
> 
> Or am I just missing a plot point?




First, we really don't know how many cybermen broke their control. We only had that one graveyard-ful to go on.

Danny hadn't deleted his emotions yet, and was probably one of the few who hadn't, being only recently deceased, and that gave him a significant edge.

And he was also being confronted by the object of his devotion right at the moment his emotions were overridden - that probably made a huge difference.



> If you have a TARDIS and your have a plane, is your optimal mobile headquarters the plane?  Why wasn't his first order "Right, everyone into the TARDIS!"




The plane is equipped to be the mobile command centre for the entire world, and its staff are familiar with its layout. Not so the TARDIS.



> Missy still had her disintegrator on her after being captured?  Did they not check her for weapons?  The Doctor was OK with her being left alone with a couple of guards despite knowing she's the friggin' _Master_?




The question about the disruptor has been answered, but the more pertinent one would be why she still had the bracelet on. Anything she's carrying could be alien tech - she should've been stripped and changed into prisoner coveralls while she was still drugged.

And yeah, the security was terribly lax - the Doctor's seen the Master escape from more sophisticated restraints than just handcuffs. He also knows the Master is adept at suborning his captors - she should've been solidly manacled and gagged. Still, they were awfully rushed.


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## Jester David (Nov 9, 2014)

Morrus said:


> Missy still had her disintegrator on her after being captured?  Did they not check her for weapons?  The Doctor was OK with her being left alone with a couple of guards despite knowing she's the friggin' _Master_?





Umbran said:


> The tech with the glasses and bow tie had it on the desk, and was working on it.  Missy gets free, comes up to the desk, and while the tech is distracted, Missy picks it up.



The part that stood out in that scene is how the guards do NOTHING when the person right in front of them says she's going to kill the techie and/or react when they see the handcuffs. Or even notice the Master planting the handcuffs.
And the techie doesn't immediately shout "at arms!" when the threat and/or security breach is noticed.

To say nothing on them standing their while the Master grabbed techie and then disintegrated them.

Worst. Guards. Ever. 

That scene would have been so much better had the guards not been present. It would have seemed odd, but less odd than them just being completely asleep at their post.


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## Morrus (Nov 9, 2014)

MarkB said:


> First, we really don't know how many cybermen broke their control. We only had that one graveyard-ful to go on.
> 
> Danny hadn't deleted his emotions yet, and was probably one of the few who hadn't, being only recently deceased, and that gave him a significant edge.




No, his emotions had been deleted. Clara did it at his request.



> The plane is equipped to be the mobile command centre for the entire world, and its staff are familiar with its layout. Not so the TARDIS.




The TARDIS is equipped to do anything. What on earth could that plane possibly do that the TARDIS couldn't? Plus it can't be attacked by Cybermen.


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## Morrus (Nov 9, 2014)

Why does nobody know Osgood's name? Poor woman.


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## MarkB (Nov 9, 2014)

Morrus said:


> No, his emotions had been deleted. Clara did it at his request.




I was talking about when he first woke up. The next part of my reply addressed what happened when his emotions were deleted.


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## Remus Lupin (Nov 9, 2014)

Am I the only one who thinks that "Danny and I are going to be fine" is a reference to a baby Danny back at home, which is why Clara can't travel with the Doctor anymore? she wanted to tell Danny she loved him and come clean because she was going to announce that she was pregnant, and then he died. There has to be a baby Danny because it's the only way that future descendant pioneer time-traveller Danny can exist, since he a) is a genetic descendent of Clara and b) Looks like Danny.

So, I'm calling it: Baby at home with Clara.


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## Remus Lupin (Nov 9, 2014)

Also, Osgood was awesome! I'm so sorry to see her go!


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## Richards (Nov 9, 2014)

Umbran said:


> Which, of course, brings in Nick Frost - terribly appropriate for the Gift of the Magi ending.  I love that they got a guy named Frost for that role



"Nick Frost" almost seems like the sort of name Santa Claus would make up as a pseudonym.

Despite my love for Roger Delgado and my feelings that the subsequent Masters were never as good as the original, I think I've come to the opinion that "Missy" is the best Master of them all.  I'm sure (or at least surely hoping) we'll see more of her in future episodes.

"Ooh, good point.  That's a very good point.  Still -- bananas!"  Awesomeness, although it came at the expense of Osgood's life.  Still, she went out on a high note, with the Doctor having instilled in her the idea that she might be his next companion, what with putting "all of time and space" on her bucket list.  And I'm guessing the only reason they killed her off was there was no good way to keep her alive from an exploding plane, when they already had to figure out a way to keep the Doctor (awesome escape, by the way!) and Osgood's mom alive.  (It would stretch credulity for "Cyberman Brigadier" to have been able to save both his daughter and his granddaughter, and it would have put him in a bad light to not have saved whichever one he couldn't save.)  And there was no good reason not to have Osgood on the plane, so from a writing standpoint, her death was kind of inevitable, given the circumstances.  But it's a real shame, because I really liked her.

Johnathan


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## MarkB (Nov 9, 2014)

Having re-watched the epsiode, it's definitely the cyberman who blasts Missy - I'd missed the shot coming into frame from the side the first time, and the cyberman's deployed weapon in the next shot.



Remus Lupin said:


> Am I the only one who thinks that "Danny and I are going to be fine" is a reference to a baby Danny back at home, which is why Clara can't travel with the Doctor anymore? she wanted to tell Danny she loved him and come clean because she was going to announce that she was pregnant, and then he died. There has to be a baby Danny because it's the only way that future descendant pioneer time-traveller Danny can exist, since he a) is a genetic descendent of Clara and b) Looks like Danny.
> 
> So, I'm calling it: Baby at home with Clara.




The timing doesn't look right. It's only two weeks later, and there's no indication of a 9-month gap in the timeline prior to this episode.

Leaving aside hand-waving of "timey-wimey", it's possible that Danny already had a kid from a former relationship. All it takes is for their distant descendant to get together with one of Clara's distant descendants at some point for there to be common DNA.


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## Richards (Nov 9, 2014)

I don't think Remus was saying Clara had already had the baby, merely that she knew she was pregnant at that point.  (And that if it was a boy, she'd be naming it "Danny.")  It's an interesting theory, and one that I think is perfectly plausible.  (Plus, it helps explain the "Future Astronaut Pink" from the "Listen" episode.)

Johnathan


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## Ryujin (Nov 9, 2014)

Morrus said:


> No, his emotions had been deleted. Clara did it at his request.
> 
> The TARDIS is equipped to do anything. What on earth could that plane possibly do that the TARDIS couldn't? Plus it can't be attacked by Cybermen.




My take on that is the 'duty of a soldier' angle. As they say, "Once a soldier, always a soldier." The problem with Cybermen is that once their indoctrination is complete, they have no emotion. Is duty an emotion? The "love is a promise" thing is a little odd, I'll admit, but I think that it ultimately came down to fulfilling his sworn duty.

I'd not be letting The Master/Missy anywhere near my TARDIS. He had already stolen it from The Doctor more than once, in the past.

As to the disintegrator/cell phone doohickey she didn't still have it on her, but it was still in the room where she was being held. Presumably she just picked it up after freeing herself.


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## Nellisir (Nov 9, 2014)

Best episode of the season.


I initially thought Missy teleported, because it was a blue effect rather than a red effect, but I'm not sure which color represents a Cyberman blast. Missy's teleport earlier was blue, and her disintegrations were red.
Is cyberpollen really a better term than nanotech?
I think the whole "love is a promise" bit overrode the Cybermen coding. It's explicitly not "an emotion"; it's more of an order. So CyberDan's overriding order is to protect Clara. Plus, Missy is bananas. Her programming is probably weird as hell. 
Danny and the kid was perfect. Exactly right on the nose.
I don't know about Gallifrey; reading this thread I guess Missy lied, but I didn't get that so much from the episode; I thought the Doctor just teleported a ways away to look at it.  Did seem odd.
Michelle Gomez. Best Who villain ever. I'll bet they have to rebuild the scenery to get the teeth marks out after she's done shooting. I want to see her and Moriarty together.


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## Remus Lupin (Nov 9, 2014)

I think it's possible that there had been a longer interval than just two weeks since the cyber attack. We only know that she had called him two weeks before, but I'm also open to the possibility that she's still pregnant and not far along. I don't know how else "Danny and I will be fine" makes sense. And the doctor knows, which is why the remark doesn't strike him as odd.


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## MarkB (Nov 9, 2014)

Remus Lupin said:


> I think it's possible that there had been a longer interval than just two weeks since the cyber attack. We only know that she had called him two weeks before, but I'm also open to the possibility that she's still pregnant and not far along.




The scene where Danny sends the kid back is captioned "Two weeks later", and it doesn't seem like the meeting with the Doctor takes place much after that.



> I don't know how else "Danny and I will be fine" makes sense. And the doctor knows, which is why the remark doesn't strike him as odd.




The whole point of that final scene is that Clara and the Doctor are ending their relationship exactly as they were pursuing it - both lying to each other to spare the other's feelings, both so practised at it that it comes naturally and totally convincingly.


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## Morrus (Nov 9, 2014)

Yeah, they were both lying to each their at the end. 

New question: so Missy was the woman in the phone shop. She says she "chose" Clara. She went out of her way to keep them together.

But.... why? What on earth for?


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## MarkB (Nov 9, 2014)

Morrus said:


> Yeah, they were both lying to each their at the end.
> 
> New question: so Missy was the woman in the phone shop. She says she "chose" Clara. She went out of her way to keep them together.
> 
> But.... why? What on earth for?




Clara had a way of getting under the Doctor's skin, showing him his darker side. I think Missy genuinely believed the Doctor was just like her, deep down, and hoped that Clara would help to show him that. That's really just a guess, though.


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## Ryujin (Nov 9, 2014)

I got the impression that while Missy couldn't influence The Doctor she could certainly arrange to set him up with a "control freak" companion, who she could use to steer him the way that she wanted to.


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## Bagpuss (Nov 9, 2014)

Morrus said:


> Why was Danny able to override his Cyberman programming?  And why was the Brigadier able to, also? Is the implication that love overrides the programming?  In that case, presumably the majority of people love somebody - why don't all the Cybermen overcome their programming?  Or was the love of those two greater than that of everyone else?




I think both of them were confronted with the object of there affection, so it could snap them out of it, the other cybermen didn't happen to come across the their loved ones? Also all that Love is a Promise stuff people have mentioned.



> If you have a TARDIS and your have a plane, is your optimal mobile headquarters the plane?  Why wasn't his first order "Right, everyone into the TARDIS!"




Well the Doctor is kind of fussy over who he lets in, and UNIT seem a bit paranoid about letting the Doctor out of their sights in time of crisis. That's my feeling, protocols allow the Doctor anything he needs, except being able to run away and leave us in the .



> Missy still had her disintegrator on her after being captured?  Did they not check her for weapons?




You see her grab it off the table, when she zooms over to stand behind glasses-girl.


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## Bedrockgames (Nov 9, 2014)

Nellisir said:


> [*]Michelle Gomez. Best Who villain ever. I'll bet they have to rebuild the scenery to get the teeth marks out after she's done shooting. I want to see her and Moriarty together.
> [/LIST]




Absolutely agree. We only really ever got two full episodes with her (and the occasional glimpses after each episode) and I feel like that just isn't enough. I would definitely be happy with them handwaving her death somehow to bring her back. I was actually disappointed when the cyberman killed her.


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## Bagpuss (Nov 10, 2014)

My grip with the plot was, the personalities where taken from the "recently dead" and stored in the nethersphere. 

By recently they didn't mean recently in 2014, they meant recent from whichever part of history they came from, past, current or future.

So when they got put back into bodies, they can't have all gone into their own bodies as some won't even had been born yet, but others would have rotted to the point there was nothing to interface with.

So...

a) How come Danny ended up in his own body?
b) What was really left of the brain to interface with from a body that died in 1748 (one of the graves you see a Cyberman rising from)?
c) Where did Danny find Clara a coat?

____________________________________

The Mary Poppins arrival more than makes up for those gripes though.


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## Morrus (Nov 10, 2014)

Watched again. Disintegration are red. Teleports are blue. Double checked.

The Brig definitely takes the shot.

And then takes off and lives evermore as a Cyberman. Creepy and weird.


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## Jester David (Nov 10, 2014)

Remus Lupin said:


> Am I the only one who thinks that "Danny and I are going to be fine" is a reference to a baby Danny back at home, which is why Clara can't travel with the Doctor anymore? she wanted to tell Danny she loved him and come clean because she was going to announce that she was pregnant, and then he died. There has to be a baby Danny because it's the only way that future descendant pioneer time-traveller Danny can exist, since he a) is a genetic descendent of Clara and b) Looks like Danny.
> 
> So, I'm calling it: Baby at home with Clara.



Time can be rewritten. They're always saying it but we never see it. Clara's future was changed, and there's no time travelling descendants.


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## Jester David (Nov 10, 2014)

Morrus said:


> Yeah, they were both lying to each their at the end.
> 
> New question: so Missy was the woman in the phone shop. She says she "chose" Clara. She went out of her way to keep them together.
> 
> But.... why? What on earth for?




Because she was the control freak that would push the Doctor, getting him to do things he wouldn't otherwise. Like try and go to the afterlife to save her boyfriend. 

Yeah, it's a little weak.


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## Nellisir (Nov 10, 2014)

Jester Canuck said:


> Because she was the control freak that would push the Doctor, getting him to do things he wouldn't otherwise. Like try and go to the afterlife to save her boyfriend.




That's what I got out of it too. She would push the Doctor. Push and push and push. I'm not sure it's "weak", but it could've been stronger.

I like that she wasn't a milksop of a companion, and I might argue that her pushing pushed him out of the black hole he was in and into realizing who he was.


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## tomBitonti (Nov 10, 2014)

I thought there were some nice moments.

The death of the scientist was odd: Odd to discard a character after presenting them in that much detail.  Adds to the poignancy, but, detracts from the story telling.  All you get out of it is how nasty Mistress is.

From a dramatic storytelling point of view, the business with Danny's emotions was a train wreck.  Either it is significant, or its not.  They tried to have it both ways, and as a result the story point doesn't work.

Clara seems to rebound a little too quickly.  But, that is TV for you, where tragedies are resolved in a blink.  A person could be completely devastated and need months to recover from such a loss.

I do wonder why the Doctor responded the way he did after visiting Gallifrey.  Because he can't go back?  Or won't?  Something about Gallifrey perhaps?

Oh, and the security on the Mistress (and the guards).  Not nearly the worst every, but pretty terrible.  They didn't search her?  And, who uses those sorts of hand cuffs anymore?  And wouldn't you restrain her in several different ways?  And, wouldn't the guards prevent the scientist from approaching?  Seems like standing orders for a secured prisoner.  And why not call for help after the threat was made?  So much wrong that my brain hurts ...

Thx!

TomB


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## trappedslider (Nov 10, 2014)

tomBitonti said:


> I do wonder why the Doctor responded the way he did after visiting Gallifrey.  Because he can't go back?  Or won't?  Something about Gallifrey perhaps?




I thought it was implied that the MAster lied to the Doctor about Gallifrey's location


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## Bagpuss (Nov 10, 2014)

I suspect Clara is pregnant one of the post-its on her bookcase last week was "three months", it's the only way to explain the Danny Pink lookalike at the end of time. Well unless they bring Danny back from the dead... which considering the end of the episode they may very well do.


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## Bagpuss (Nov 10, 2014)

tomBitonti said:


> The death of the scientist was odd: Odd to discard a character after presenting them in that much detail.  Adds to the poignancy, but, detracts from the story telling.  All you get out of it is how nasty Mistress is.




If you watch Doctor Who Extra, that is exactly why they did it. Just to hit home how nasty the Mistress is. Moffart said to do that they needed/wanted to throw a character the audience liked under a bus, unfortunately it was Osgood. 



> From a dramatic storytelling point of view, the business with Danny's emotions was a train wreck.  Either it is significant, or its not.  They tried to have it both ways, and as a result the story point doesn't work.




Well they can, they made you think his emotions were important, and in fact in a sense they were, they are what made the promise happen. The point was with love even after all the hormones (the emotion) have gone there is still something left.



> Clara seems to rebound a little too quickly.  But, that is TV for you, where tragedies are resolved in a blink.  A person could be completely devastated and need months to recover from such a loss.




Seriously? She's British, a relative dies and you go to work the next day. You put on a brave face, especially in public. She met the Doctor in a coffee shop (perhaps even for that reason).



> I do wonder why the Doctor responded the way he did after visiting Gallifrey.  Because he can't go back?  Or won't?  Something about Gallifrey perhaps?




Because he got his hopes up and it wasn't there.


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## Richards (Nov 10, 2014)

Here's where I'm confused: Missy's cyber-control bracelet.  She gives it to the Doctor, he tosses it to Danny, Danny uses it to command the Cybermen to fly up with him into the clouds and self-destruct, destroying the clouds and their Cyber-pollen.  Okay, so far so good.  But in my mind, the cyber-control bracelet should then be destroyed at that point.  But no, Danny's still got it in the afterlife (and at this point, which afterlife is he in? - actual Heaven or back in the Nethersphere?) and uses it to communicate with Clara and send back the boy he killed.  And the boy arrives in Clara's apartment wearing the cyber-control bracelet, because the Doctor later spots Clara wearing it in the coffee shop and deduces that Danny made it back from the afterlife intact as he had anticipated.

So, all of the Cybermen who self-destructed upon Danny's orders - are their memories and consciousness back in the Nethersphere?  And if so, are they in there as Cybermen?  (Danny Pink showed up, originally, in the clothes he was wearing when he died.  And since they were "wearing" Cyberman bodies when they died this second time....)

Johnathan


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## Remus Lupin (Nov 10, 2014)

Watching the episode again, I see I missed a couple of things in that final scene between the Doctor and Clara and that make me realized that, yes, she was referring to adult Danny when she said "Danny and I will be fine." I had missed the Doctor's noticing the bracelet and jumping to the conclusion that Danny had made it back.

Nevertheless, I'll still put money on Clara being pregnant, if for no other reason than I don't think Moffett would drop "future time traveling Danny" in front of us, kill off Danny, and then leave that plot thread dangling. Yes, "time can be rewritten," but this is about plot and story. If that particular angle were to be rewritten, it should have factored into the story somehow, or should never have been raised to begin with. Clara's descendent could have looked like anyone. I don't think that he looked like Danny just by accident.


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## Bagpuss (Nov 10, 2014)

Richards said:


> But in my mind, the cyber-control bracelet should then be destroyed at that point.  But no, Danny's still got it in the afterlife (and at this point, which afterlife is he in? - actual Heaven or back in the Nethersphere?) and uses it to communicate with Clara and send back the boy he killed.  And the boy arrives in Clara's apartment wearing the cyber-control bracelet, because the Doctor later spots Clara wearing it in the coffee shop and deduces that Danny made it back from the afterlife intact as he had anticipated.




Yeah it makes very little sense that bit, for example what is Missy doing in the Nethersphere talking to the AI construct and welcome some people, if it is just a datacore? Why does she vapourise him in the same way she does everyone else if he is just a data construct and not a real person?


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## Ryujin (Nov 10, 2014)

Richards said:


> Here's where I'm confused: Missy's cyber-control bracelet.  She gives it to the Doctor, he tosses it to Danny, Danny uses it to command the Cybermen to fly up with him into the clouds and self-destruct, destroying the clouds and their Cyber-pollen.  Okay, so far so good.  But in my mind, the cyber-control bracelet should then be destroyed at that point.  But no, Danny's still got it in the afterlife (and at this point, which afterlife is he in? - actual Heaven or back in the Nethersphere?) and uses it to communicate with Clara and send back the boy he killed.  And the boy arrives in Clara's apartment wearing the cyber-control bracelet, because the Doctor later spots Clara wearing it in the coffee shop and deduces that Danny made it back from the afterlife intact as he had anticipated.
> 
> So, all of the Cybermen who self-destructed upon Danny's orders - are their memories and consciousness back in the Nethersphere?  And if so, are they in there as Cybermen?  (Danny Pink showed up, originally, in the clothes he was wearing when he died.  And since they were "wearing" Cyberman bodies when they died this second time....)
> 
> Johnathan




To me, the Cybermen self destructing was the weakest point. Cybermen fly up into the air and explode, creating Cyber Pollen that's eventually going to turn everyone into Cybermen. Cybermen fly up into the air and explode, destroying the Cyber Pollen that the original exploding Cybermen created. 

I'm pretty sure that The Doctor is well aware that Clara was lying to him, in the coffee shop. The "never trust a hug" line is what makes me believe that.


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## Bagpuss (Nov 10, 2014)

Richards said:


> But in my mind, the cyber-control bracelet should then be destroyed at that point.  But no, Danny's still got it in the afterlife (and at this point, which afterlife is he in? - actual Heaven or back in the Nethersphere?) and uses it to communicate with Clara and send back the boy he killed.  And the boy arrives in Clara's apartment wearing the cyber-control bracelet, because the Doctor later spots Clara wearing it in the coffee shop and deduces that Danny made it back from the afterlife intact as he had anticipated.




The whole Nethersphere thing is a complete mess, if it is a Matrix Data Slice and Seb is just an interface, how is Missy in there? Also why does she disintegrate Seb when he could just be deleted? How would a physical object like the bracelet get there?

Although to be fair The Matrix on Gallifrey did have a method for physical beings to enter the Matrix (the legendary Seventh Door), rather than just their consciousness.

So lets say the Nethersphere duplicates the consciousness of the person including how they perceive themselves (clothes, etc) and all the Cybermen get transferred back there when the blew up. Danny perceives himself to have the bracelet, the bracelet acts like the Key of Rassilon (opening the Seventh Door), allowing Missy into the Matrix physically, but perhaps it could also allow someone stored in the Matrix to become physical.

The bracelet could just be a symbolic code, the actually technology be in the Nethersphere itself. So he gives the bracelet to the boy and he steps out.


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## Ryujin (Nov 10, 2014)

Direct physical digitization, like a Star Trek transporter on steroids, but with consciousness?


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## Bagpuss (Nov 10, 2014)

Well the Matrix on Gallifrey was used for storing the consciousness of dead Timelords and was sort of part virtually reality part pocket dimension, everything in there seemed completely real. So if there was a way for something physical to get in, then it makes sense that something in might be able to get out.

Note the Master copied the Key of Rassilon before, so I expect that's what the bracelet was.


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## Umbran (Nov 10, 2014)

Bagpuss said:


> Note the Master copied the Key of Rassilon before, so I expect that's what the bracelet was.




It may have been a pale imitation of the Key.  The real Key of Rassilon would not have been a one-trip-only thing.


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## Umbran (Nov 10, 2014)

tomBitonti said:


> Clara seems to rebound a little too quickly.  But, that is TV for you, where tragedies are resolved in a blink.  A person could be completely devastated and need months to recover from such a loss.




Real people do put on a brave face and deal with the world after losses.  Inside, she may still be a wreck.



> I do wonder why the Doctor responded the way he did after visiting Gallifrey.  Because he can't go back?  Or won't?  Something about Gallifrey perhaps?




There's no reason he can't go back - they clearly don't hold what has happened against him too much, as they gave him a whole new set of (goodness only knows how many) regenerations.

I think it is a simple fact of non-presence.  Gallifrey wasn't there.  The Mistress lied.


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## Umbran (Nov 10, 2014)

Richards said:


> Here's where I'm confused: Missy's cyber-control bracelet.  She gives it to the Doctor, he tosses it to Danny, Danny uses it to command the Cybermen to fly up with him into the clouds and self-destruct, destroying the clouds and their Cyber-pollen.  Okay, so far so good.  But in my mind, the cyber-control bracelet should then be destroyed at that point.




I think it is akin to the Key of Rassilon - just not as powerful (since it isn't the full Gallifreyan Matrix, it doesn't need to be).  It allows people to enter and leave the Matrix.

If you have a problem with the Nethersphere, it should be - "The boy Danny sends back - where did he get a physical body?"


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## Morrus (Nov 10, 2014)

tomBitonti said:


> I do wonder why the Doctor responded the way he did after visiting Gallifrey.  Because he can't go back?  Or won't?  Something about Gallifrey perhaps?




Gallifrey wasn't there.  He opened the door and there was just space.  So, yeah, something about Gallifrey, I guess!


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## Morrus (Nov 10, 2014)

An interesting tidbit buried in there - The Doctor has been married 4 times (all deceased) and has children and grandchildren, all missing, presumed dead.


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## Bagpuss (Nov 10, 2014)

Umbran said:


> If you have a problem with the Nethersphere, it should be - "The boy Danny sends back - where did he get a physical body?"




If the key allows Missy to enter the Nethersphere, several times it appears, by transferring her physical being to data, and then her data back to physical, it seems possible it could transfer the boys data to a physical body.

Also it's a one time thing because the bracelet can only effect one wearer, and or the Nethersphere is running down on power.


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## Umbran (Nov 10, 2014)

Bagpuss said:


> If the key allows Missy to enter the Nethersphere, several times it appears, by transferring her physical being to data, and then her data back to physical, it seems possible it could transfer the boys data to a physical body.




Yes, but Missy starts out physical.  We are not sure if she's *physically* present in the Nethersphere, or just an electronic representation.  The dead within the Nethersphere are bodieless - the bodies got buried, burned, or what have you.  So, where does it get a body for the boy?  



> Also it's a one time thing because the bracelet can only effect one wearer, and or the Nethersphere is running down on power.




Let's be honest - it is a one-time thing because the plot demands it.  Having everyone who is dead - the implication was that Missy was gathering the dead for thousands of years - able to come back is extremely problematic for a planet.


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## MarkB (Nov 10, 2014)

Bagpuss said:


> Yeah it makes very little sense that bit, for example what is Missy doing in the Nethersphere talking to the AI construct and welcome some people, if it is just a datacore?




The purpose of the Nethersphere was to make peoples' 'afterlives' sufficiently unpleasant that they would willingly abandon their own emotions. I'm pretty sure Missy would have greatly enjoyed taking part in that process.



> Why does she vapourise him in the same way she does everyone else if he is just a data construct and not a real person?




Presumably the simulation is sufficiently true-to-life that killing him that way still works. And given the level of technology involved, the fact that he was a data construct doesn't preclude him being a person.


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## Umbran (Nov 10, 2014)

MarkB said:


> The purpose of the Nethersphere was to make peoples' 'afterlives' sufficiently unpleasant that they would willingly abandon their own emotions. I'm pretty sure Missy would have greatly enjoyed taking part in that process.




Good point.  Let us note that, Danny didn't do this.  Maybe the Brigadier did not.  This may set them apart from (implied) everyone else in the Nethersphere, who chose to have emotions erased before going to cyberman-bodies.  We can argue that this difference is what makes them able to resist programming later.



> Presumably the simulation is sufficiently true-to-life that killing him that way still works.




Or, the same visual effect is the digital representation of having his routines wiped, because Missy likes the effect and presumably she wrote the darned thing.


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## Bagpuss (Nov 10, 2014)

Umbran said:


> So, where does it get a body for the boy.




From the data in the virtual pocket dimension where he has a body that is so real that it can create one when it transfers to the real world.


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## Jester David (Nov 10, 2014)

Morrus said:


> An interesting tidbit buried in there - The Doctor has been married 4 times (all deceased) and has children and grandchildren, all missing, presumed dead.




The marriage aren't much of a revelation: there's Susan's grandmother (presumably), River Song, Queen Elizabeth I, and (possibly) Marilyn Monroe. 
Okay, the last is easy to forget but I just rewatched the Christmas Carol special.


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## Umbran (Nov 10, 2014)

Bagpuss said:


> From the data in the virtual pocket dimension where he has a body that is so real that it can create one when it transfers to the real world.




Meaning, "out of the scriptwriter's butt?"


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## Shijuro (Nov 11, 2014)

So I was watching last week's episode, and thought "is Moffat really going to Ed Wood's 'Plan 9 From Outer Space' for plotlines?  How long until he borrows 'Glen or Glenda'?"

And then, we learn who Missy is.  Granted, it's a bit more than borrowing your wife's jumper, but still...  I'm looking forward to the possibility of a 'Bride of the Monster' rehash next season.


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## Mallus (Nov 11, 2014)

Shijuro said:


> So I was watching last week's episode, and thought "is Moffat really going to Ed Wood's 'Plan 9 From Outer Space' for plotlines?  How long until he borrows 'Glen or Glenda'?"



It's Plan 12 From Outer Space! 

Glen or Glenda in Doctor Who? Perfect place to debut Eddie Izzard's Doctor!

As for Death in Heaven... good, really good even, but not great. A fitting end to a season where the writing team did a great jobs establishing, developing, and then, umm, climaxing -- no, too naughty-sounding -- _resolving_ their themes. The Master's plot was actually fairly sensible, as far as these things go, and the reveal that the Cyberzombie army was a gift _for_ the Doctor was terrific. 

I even came around to liking Michelle Gomez's 'Master as evil Mary Poppins' routine. 

The only thing I didn't like was the resurrection of the boy Danny Pink killed. I know it's all science fantasy BS... but up until that point I felt the writing had done a pretty good job at providing explanations for how what was happening was happening.


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## Nellisir (Nov 11, 2014)

I want to see the selfie Missy & the Doctor were (not really, I know) "taking".


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## Beleriphon (Nov 11, 2014)

Morrus said:


> So - she was lying about Gallifrey's location, right?




I don't think so, I think there's more to the statement then The Doctor is seeing. Just because its at that particular spot doesn't mean Gallifrey has to be there at that particular time.


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## Morrus (Nov 11, 2014)

Beleriphon said:


> I don't think so, I think there's more to the statement then The Doctor is seeing. Just because its at that particular spot doesn't mean Gallifrey has to be there at that particular time.




Seems an odd leap to me, especially given that he's standing in a time machine.


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## Beleriphon (Nov 11, 2014)

Morrus said:


> Seems an odd leap to me, especially given that he's standing in a time machine.




I still don't think its a lie, only a half-truth. I'm quite certain there is more going on with Missy's statement about the co-ordinates than we, or The Doctor, are aware of.


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## Fast Learner (Nov 12, 2014)

Just want to add that all of the hand-wavy stuff worked just fine for me, and I enjoyed the heck out of the episode, particularly in the way it pulled all of the series' strings together.


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## Bagpuss (Nov 12, 2014)

Umbran said:


> Meaning, "out of the scriptwriter's butt?"




No if it can translate a body to data, and back again it should be able to do that last step. It's all just information.

The dead sister coming back in "In the Forest of the Night", now that was out of the scriptwriter's butt.


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## Umbran (Nov 12, 2014)

Bagpuss said:


> No if it can translate a body to data, and back again it should be able to do that last step. It's all just information.




Except... 

When it takes in Missy (*if* it does - I don't think we know if she was actually bodily present or that was just a representation of her mind present within the computer) then it has her body to work with in the first place.

For the dead, it *wasn't* taking the bodies.  Those were left out in the world to be reanimated later.  So, there's no reason for the computer to have the pattern of the physical body, nor the energy to manifest an entire body out of nothingness - it has to get the mass from somewhere.


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## Richards (Nov 13, 2014)

Bagpuss said:


> The dead sister coming back in "In the Forest of the Night", now that was out of the scriptwriter's butt.



Dead sister?  Somehow I thought she was just a runaway, who had come home at the end of the episode.

Johnathan


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## Bagpuss (Nov 14, 2014)

Richards said:


> Dead sister?  Somehow I thought she was just a runaway, who had come home at the end of the episode.




Okay watching back (I love iPlayer) Clara does just say "She went missing last year." but I thought it was heavily implied she was dead. Then appearing out of the disappearing bush gave it a mystical feel to her return.


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## delericho (Nov 15, 2014)

An extended preview of this year's Christmas Special, from last night's Children in Need programme:

[video=youtube;MsxEenCBRG0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsxEenCBRG0[/video]


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