# Sorcerer Fix - Continued from "D&D Rules" (PART 4)



## Khaalis (Mar 31, 2004)

Since the last thread has yet again reached far too many pages to bring in many readers much less posters, I am taking others' recommendations and splitting off to this new Thread to begin anew, once again. 

The older threads can be found here: 
Class Imbalance?: http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=75827
Sorcerer Fix - Continued from "D&D Rules": http://www.enworld.org/forums/showt...5939
Sorcerer Fix - Continued from "D&D Rules" (PART 2): http://www.enworld.org/forums/showt...31
Sorcerer Fix - Continued from "D&D Rules" (PART 3): http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=78851


*Thread Mission Statement:*
To create a dynamic and appealing version of the sorcerer class that:
*A)* Makes a sorcerer class mechanic that *Matches* the Flavor Text as designated in the PHB.
*B)* Balances the class to the existing core classes of the PHB, *while making the class a harder choice to abandon to a PrC at the earliest convenience*.
*C)* Make the sorcerer a unique class with its own class abilities that separate it from being a Wizard that prepares spells differently.
*D)* Could be used as a substitute for the core sorcerer of the PHB, thus following a similar design template such as fixed skill lists and class abilities.
*E)* Present further *Optional* information to advance and customize the sorcerer.


*Summary to Date*
It has been discussed, ad nauseum, and determined that many feel that the sorcerer is overall, underpowered in comparison to the other base classes. It is also known that the sorcerer Flavor Text and sorcerer mechanics have little to do with one another. The flavor text is Non-OGL and has survived various development revisions pre-3.0 release, 3.0 release, 3.0 errata, 3.5 revision, and 3.5 errata. The flavor text of the sorcerer is here to stay. The purpose of this thread is to make a class mechanic that matches that flavor text and uses it to define what the sorcerer is and should be. There is also the need to make the sorcerer into a unique class and not just a wizard that prepares spells differently. The sorcerer needs to find its own niche and strength as a class, not just to be the equivalent of a Hedge Wizard. 

With that said, here is where we are to date after 19 thread pages and over 410 posts later.


*UPDATES

SORCERER REVISION UPDATE 4.04
SORCERER REVISION UPDATE 7.04*

The PDF version of the work-in-progress to date is located at:

{Edit: Currently the Site is down due to a change in residence/account. If you want the file, just PM or email me.}

Further comment and discussion is looked forward to.

Thanks for all your support.
-Khaalis


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## Ghostwalker_Daishi (Apr 1, 2004)

Wow, this has come a long way.  I, for one, am really interested to see how this all works out in the end.

Good luck!


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## Khaalis (Apr 1, 2004)

Ghostwalker_Daishi said:
			
		

> Wow, this has come a long way.  I, for one, am really interested to see how this all works out in the end.
> 
> Good luck!




Thanks for he bump! Any comments?


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## JimAde (Apr 1, 2004)

Wow!  Great job to Khaalis and everybody else who contributed.  My current group is without an arcane spell-caster, so I think they'll be getting a lieage sorcerer NPC 

One comment: The PDF includes the OGL, but I noticed the lineage spell lists include non-OGC spell names (Bigby's Clenched Fist instead of Clenched Fist, etc.)  A minor point, but if you want to be proper Open Content...

Thanks for all the work!


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## Khaalis (Apr 1, 2004)

Thanks for the Technical OGL catch. As I am not a publisher I am not as up on the whole legal issues thing as much as I probably should be. I knew it had to be included though since this is "distribution" even if not-for-sale.

Thanks again!


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## Khaalis (Apr 1, 2004)

_New update posted with the spell name changes. Think I got them all...._


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## Fieari (Apr 4, 2004)

Absolutely wonderful.  My only complaint is that some of the paragraphs are rather long, and the space between lines is rather small.  I like a little bit more white on my page, just for readability's sake.  Of course, that means more pages, but how much would that really hurt?


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## Khaalis (Apr 4, 2004)

Fieari said:
			
		

> Absolutely wonderful.  My only complaint is that some of the paragraphs are rather long, and the space between lines is rather small.  I like a little bit more white on my page, just for readability's sake.  Of course, that means more pages, but how much would that really hurt?



Email me and I can do up a custom version for you via email (if you cant edit it yourself).


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## Cheiromancer (Apr 4, 2004)

The weaving and unweaving rules allow mid to high level sorcerers to recharge spell slots with a few hours of meditation.  Is this a bug or a feature?



> Weaving: To weave a higher-level spell-slot, a sorcerer must
> sacrifice a number of spell slots equal to the intended spell level +2.
> Thus  to weave a 5th  level spell,  requires 7 spell  levels  (a 4th and a
> 3rd, 2 3rd and a 1st etc.). Casting a spell as a woven spell-slot  is a
> ...




A 10th level sorcerer has used up all her spell slots except one 3rd and one 4th level spell slot.  These she weaves together to make a 5th level spell slot.  She then unweaves the 5th level spell slot to make two 4th level spell slots.  She unweaves one of the 4th level spell slots to make two 3rd level spell slots.  Now she has two 3rd level spell slots and one 4th level spell slot.  She has used 45 minutes of meditation to restore a 3rd level spell slot.

Is this correct?


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## Khaalis (Apr 5, 2004)

Cheiromancer said:
			
		

> The weaving and unweaving rules allow mid to high level sorcerers to recharge spell slots with a few hours of meditation.  Is this a bug or a feature?
> 
> A 10th level sorcerer has used up all her spell slots except one 3rd and one 4th level spell slot.  These she weaves together to make a 5th level spell slot.  She then unweaves the 5th level spell slot to make two 4th level spell slots.  She unweaves one of the 4th level spell slots to make two 3rd level spell slots.  Now she has two 3rd level spell slots and one 4th level spell slot.  She has used 45 minutes of meditation to restore a 3rd level spell slot.
> 
> Is this correct?




Good questions! Thanks for asking.

1) This is not a bug. This is an "Optional Rule" that would increase the versatility of the class to make them seem more free-form without going to a Spell-Point system and that introduces a fair cost to the versatility. It was included as an "Option" for those that wanted to use the system, and something that could be ignored by those that do not.

2) Weaving a higher level spell to unweave more lower level spells is incorrect.  You cannot weave a higher level spell to unweave into lower spells.  Weaving specifically states that it is at at-the-time action. Weaving is casting a spell as a Full-Round action. Once you weave its gone, used. You cannot weave a higher level spell-slot for later use. 

Thus, no... you cannot weave a 3rd + 4th to get a 5th, then unweave the 5th into 2 4th (thus cheaply converting a 3rd to a 4th).


What the caster could do is this:
1) Keep their 3rd and 4th level spell slots for later use.
2) Weave a 5th level spell leaving them with 0 spells left for the day.
3) Unweave from 0/0/0/1/1.

a) With 15 minutes meditation they could: 
* Unweave the 4th level spell slot to gain 2 3rd level spell slots bringing them to 0/0/0/3/0.  
*OR*
* Unweave the 3rd level spell slot to gain 2 2nd level spell slots bringing them to 0/0/2/0/1.

b) With 30 minutes meditation they could:
* Unweave the 4th level spell slot to gain 2 3rd level spell slots bringing them to 0/0/0/3/0 then unweave a 3rd level spell slot bringing them to 0/0/2/2/0.
*OR*
* Unweave the 3rd level spell slot to gain 2 2nd level spell slots bringing them to 0/0/2/0/1 then unweave a 2nd level spell slot bringing them to 0/2/1/0/1.

c) With 45 minutes meditation they could:
* Unweave the 4th level spell slot to gain 2 3rd level spell slots bringing them to 0/0/0/3/0 then unweave a 3rd level spell slot bringing them to 0/0/2/2/0 then unweave another 3rd level spell slot bringing them to 0/0/4/1/0.
.....*OR*
* Unweave the 4th level spell slot to gain 2 3rd level spell slots bringing them to 0/0/0/3/0 then unweave a 3rd level spell slot bringing them to 0/0/2/2/0 then unweave another 2nd level spell slot bringing them to 0/2/1/2/0.

*OR*

* Unweave the 3rd level spell slot to gain 2 2nd level spell slots bringing them to 0/0/2/0/1 then unweave a 2nd level spell slot bringing them to 0/2/1/0/1 then unweave another 2nd level spell slot bringing them to 0/4/0/0/1.
.....*OR*
* Unweave the 3rd level spell slot to gain 2 2nd level spell slots bringing them to 0/0/2/0/1 then unweave a 2nd level spell slot bringing them to 0/2/1/0/1 then unweave a 1st level spell slot bringing them to 2/1/1/0/1.

etc.  

Remember that for each 15 minutes only one spell slot can be unwoven.

Hope that adequately answers your questions.


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## Ghostwalker_Daishi (Apr 5, 2004)

One question: How many/what kind of lineages are we looking at for our goal?  3? 15? 80 Grafrillion?


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## Khaalis (Apr 5, 2004)

Ghostwalker_Daishi said:
			
		

> One question: How many/what kind of lineages are we looking at for our goal?  3? 15? 80 Grafrillion?




There IS no goal.  The lineage sorcerer follows the same pattern as Monte's Arcana Unearthed examples of templated class: the_Witch_, _Totem Warrior_ and _Champion_ classes.  The lineages presented originally are some of the more common examples, but in the end they are still templated examples. There is no limit beyond others' imaginations as to what lineages can and will evolve.


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## Coredump (Apr 5, 2004)

hmmm.... personally, I think that the unweaving/weaving should come at a definite cost.

Do you feel that 3 3rd level spells are worth less than one 4th level spell? (in general, not in specific situations) The 'core' method was definitely a cost. (one 3rd level gained for a 4th level lost), but an expensive one. It doesn't have to be that expensive, but it should be a cost. I don't really see giving up a 4th for 2 3rds as much of a hardship. I would reduce it to equal levels, or perhaps level plus one. (so a 5th could be a 3 and 2)

As for weaving, the problem is higher level, I think 3 3rds and a 2nd is worth much less than the 9th level I can get. Or even the  2 3rds and 2nd for the 6th level.  While two levels 'wasted' may be enough of a cost, a mechanic saying you can only weave 2 spell slots may limit it enough. (So, for the 9th, you need a 6 and 5, or 7-4, or 8-3.) this stops the ability to give up a bunch of useless slots for the powerful spell. Or perhaps a mechanic that increases the 'waste' the more spells used. Like +1 for each slot used, or for each 2 slots used.

Just some ideas, and not well written ones at that... 

.


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## Samothdm (Apr 5, 2004)

*Your Section 15*

I really like a lot of these ideas you have and might tweak some of them for my own campaign.  One of the things that's bothered a fellow DM and I is that there's really no reason for a sorcerer to progress all the way to 20th level when there are tons of "+1 spellcaster level" PrCs out there.  

Just a minor note for your Section 15: you've referenced some rules ideas from _Forgotten Heroes: Sorcerer _ and also OGC from _Unearthed Arcana _ so you'll need to list those in your Section 15.  Also, you forgot to list yourself.  You'll want to add a line at the end with your name (or a "company name") and the copyright date of this material.  

Copyrights are "free" - you don't apply for them.  Simply putting down "This material is (C) 2004 by Khaalis" is good enough.  That in theory should protect you should someone try to lift your non-OGC (such as your layout, borders, etc.) and put it into their work.  But, IAMAL so you may want to ask someone in the Publishing Forum for advice on this.


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## pyk (Apr 6, 2004)

You should post this over to WotC's boards. A couple of folks there would drool over this concept.


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## Khaalis (Apr 7, 2004)

Coredump said:
			
		

> hmmm.... personally, I think that the unweaving/weaving should come at a definite cost.
> Do you feel that 3 3rd level spells are worth less than one 4th level spell? (in general, not in specific situations) The 'core' method was definitely a cost. (one 3rd level gained for a 4th level lost), but an expensive one. It doesn't have to be that expensive, but it should be a cost. I don't really see giving up a 4th for 2 3rds as much of a hardship. I would reduce it to equal levels, or perhaps level plus one. (so a 5th could be a 3 and 2)
> As for weaving, the problem is higher level, I think 3 3rds and a 2nd is worth much less than the 9th level I can get. Or even the  2 3rds and 2nd for the 6th level.  While two levels 'wasted' may be enough of a cost, a mechanic saying you can only weave 2 spell slots may limit it enough. (So, for the 9th, you need a 6 and 5, or 7-4, or 8-3.) this stops the ability to give up a bunch of useless slots for the powerful spell. Or perhaps a mechanic that increases the 'waste' the more spells used. Like +1 for each slot used, or for each 2 slots used.
> Just some ideas, and not well written ones at that...




This is particularly why the system is an option. It is designed to give the sorcerer a more “free form” feel but at a cost – unlike a spell point system, but it remains an option not a part of the core class. You could make it a feat as well.  On a personal note, I feel that the 4 lower level spells (3 3rd and 2nd) are worth far more than a 9th level spell. That is a reflection of my feelings on most 9th level spells however. Even a _Wish_ is limited in its scope and not as useful in most cases as casting a variety of lower level spells.  However, on the same note, I have no personal issue with a sorcerer burning through their daily allotment of spells ultra fast to cast a very small number of higher level spells if that is really what they want to do.  I am more a fan of diversity and utility style than the “big-bang” style. In most cases in an “real” campaign, not a “one shot arena” style encounter, a sorcerer (or any caster) is much better off being able to cast those 3 3rd level spells and 2nd level spell (possibly covering/solving 4 encounters) rather than burning them all for a 9th level spell to conclude 1 encounter.  Even as a pure invoker, 3 3rd levels and a 2nd level damage spell are generally worth more than a 9th level spell in the overall picture. But again, that’s just my personal opinion.



			
				Samothdm said:
			
		

> I really like a lot of these ideas you have and might tweak some of them for my own campaign.  One of the things that's bothered a fellow DM and I is that there's really no reason for a sorcerer to progress all the way to 20th level when there are tons of "+1 spellcaster level" PrCs out there.
> 
> Just a minor note for your Section 15: {snip}




Thanks for the comments. The revised version is finally posted. I tried to do this earlier but Frontpage sucks and doesn’t overwrite existing files on a publish, so I had to go in and manually ftp the changes.



			
				pyk said:
			
		

> You should post this over to WotC's boards. A couple of folks there would drool over this concept.




What board would you suggest? Are they tolerant of such works? I got the impression most of the WotC boards were WotC material purists…

Thanks for the input. More is welcome.


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## pyk (Apr 7, 2004)

Khaalis said:
			
		

> What board would you suggest? Are they tolerant of such works? I got the impression most of the WotC boards were WotC material purists?
> 
> Thanks for the input. More is welcome.




Over at WotC, they've been talking A LOT about how the sorcerer needs to be fixed, just like you folks have.

Try this board:

Discussing things with Skip Williams!

They can help to tell you if your ideas are balanced against the other classes or not.


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## Khaalis (Apr 7, 2004)

pyk said:
			
		

> Discussing things with Skip Williams!




Yeah, um, well... I guess I should say thanks for the bump but considering the context in which was handed out...


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## Evilhalfling (Apr 13, 2004)

*Child of Nature lineage unbalanced?*

Wonderful thread guys, I finally quit lurking in response to it. 
However some of the last batch of lineages could use tweaking.  The Child of Nature lineage seemed perfect for a new player’s Barbarian/Sorcerer, but really all druid spells? Including easy access to healing? I tweaked it to only plant and animal domains.  The benefits seem out of scale as well…The druid gets woodland stride at 2nd and trackless step at 3rd while the sorcerer gets both at 1st?  
How 'bout 
1st animal empathy and cast lineage abilities at +1 caster level
8th woodland stride and trackless  (1 level behind the ranger)
14th wild shape as 7th level druid (possibly with advancement) 
Comments?


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## Khaalis (Apr 13, 2004)

Evilhalfling said:
			
		

> Wonderful thread guys, I finally quit lurking in response to it.
> However some of the last batch of lineages could use tweaking.  The Child of Nature lineage seemed perfect for a new player’s Barbarian/Sorcerer, but really all druid spells? Including easy access to healing? I tweaked it to only plant and animal domains.  The benefits seem out of scale as well…The druid gets woodland stride at 2nd and trackless step at 3rd while the sorcerer gets both at 1st?
> How 'bout
> 1st animal empathy and cast lineage abilities at +1 caster level
> ...




Thanks for the input and comments. I thought this was a dead thread.

As for the Child of Nature…
Let me start with spell access. The logic of receiving all Druid spells is primarily due to simplicity. I did not want to get into a long list of approved spells.  The second issue is that everyone keeps saying how much weaker divine spells are than arcane, and that druid spells are generally even weaker than cleric spells. 

The problem I have with Plant and Animal spells only is – well basically - they suck to be blunt about it. These spells are basically worthless to a sorcerer for anything other than flavor. The sorcerer is hard pressed enough as it is to pick decent spells.  However with that said, a Child of Nature should have a druidic flair, as they are a “divinely” inspired sorcerer – gaining their power as a grant from some higher power. Thus I also have no issue with them getting limited access to healing. Druids do not have healing at as good a rate as clerics to begin with, and if the sorcerer wants to burn their spells known to be a secondary healer, I don’t have an issue with it.  The other issue with the spells is that the nature sorcerer should have access to spells like Shillelagh, Longstrider, Commune with Nature, Call Lightning, Flamestrike etc. These are far more fitting to the sorcerous nature of the class as divine agents of nature’s wrath. To gain access to all the summoning, conjuration, transformation, elemental, etc. spells that the core concept should have access to, the only way is to allow the whole Druid list.  Keep in mind – the sorcerer’s limited spells known is the primary limiting factor here. 
Honestly, how many people are going to choose the overall weaker Druid spells over arcane spells? As an example – would you take Call Lightning or Lightning Bolt?  For the most part the druid spells add a variant form of utility spells.

Now as for Overall Balance issues with class abilities I don’t really see any issues.

Nature Sorcerer Abilities
1: Woodland Stride, Trackless Step
2: _Detect Magic_ (Cha mod/day)
5: _Summon Nature’s Ally I_ (Cha mod/day)
8: Wild Shape (Small-Medium; Cha mod/day)
11: _Summon Nature’s Ally II_ (Cha mod/day)
14: Wild Shape (Small-Large; Cha mod/day)
17: _Summon Nature’s Ally III_ (Cha mod/day)
20: Outsider = Darkvision, Low-Light Vision, DR 10/cold iron, Immunity-Fey Magic

Druid Abilities
1: Animal Companion, Nature Sense, Wild Empathy
2: Woodland Stride
3: Trackless Step
4: Resist Nature’s Lure
5: Wild Shape (Small-Medium; 1/day)
6: Wild Shape (Small-Medium; 2/day)
7: Wild Shape (Small-Medium; 3/day)
8: Wild Shape (Small-Large; 3/day)
9: Venom Immunity
10: Wild Shape (Small-Large; 4/day)
11: Wild Shape (Tiny-Large; 4/day)
12: Wild Shape (Tiny-Large; Plant; 4/day)
13: Thousand Faces
14: Wild Shape (Tiny-Large; Plant; 5/day)
15: Timeless Body, Wild Shape (Tiny-Huge; Plant; 5/day)
16: Wild Shape (Tiny-Huge; Plant; 5/day), Elemental Shape (Small-Large; 1/day)
18: Wild Shape (Tiny-Huge; Plant; 6/day), Elemental Shape (Small-Large; 2/day)
20: Wild Shape (Tiny-Huge; Plant; 6/day), Elemental Shape (Small-Huge; 3/day)

Sorcerer Spells:..6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6
Druid Spells:…..6/5/5/5/5/5/4/4/4/4

Yes, the Sorcerer gets Woodland Stride and Trackless step before a Druid, however the rest of the Druid’s abilities outshine the sorcerer’s as they should since the sorcerer gets more spells. I don’t see that getting two core nature avenger abilities at 1st as unbalanced compared to what else a druid gets.

The druids Animal Companions easily equal if not surpasses the sorcerer’s Innate _Summon Nature’s Ally_ spells which have limited duration and limited power in comparison to a Companion. 

A nature sorcerer’s Wild Shape is at best Small-Large Animal Cha mod/day compared to the druid’s Tiny-Huge Animal or Plant 6/day, and Small-Huge Elemental 3/day + Thousand Faces.  For a sorcerer to get 9 wild shapes per day would require a Charisma of 28 (and that doesn’t even count the druid’s _alter self_ at will). 

The sorcerers Outsider ability (gained at 20th) is easily balanced with (if not surpassed by) a druid’s pre-20 abilities: Nature Sense, Wild Empathy, Resist Nature’s Lure, Venom Immunity and Timeless Body.

Combined with the hefty restrictions on the nature sorcerer, I honestly think they are pretty well balanced. They get just enough druid-like ability to make them feel “druidy” but nowhere near enough to make then an equal to the druid’s niche.

Thoughts?


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## Tuzenbach (Apr 17, 2004)

I hereby decree that this thread should be *stickied* (is that even a word?) to the top of this page until the Summer Soltice.......or at least Beltane!

Khaalis has obvioulsy spent a lot of time and energy figuring out logical ways in which WotC *should have* presented the Sorcerer class. I suggest you all check out his nifty PDF. Thank you.


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## fourthmensch (Apr 17, 2004)

Wow. I'm really impressed with the lineage sorcerer. I can't even express how vast an improvement over the core sorcerer this is. 

 Excellent work!


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## Axegrrl (Apr 19, 2004)

I'm curious what discussion there's been about the whompin' amount of benefits given at 20th level. (Got a link?) 

In the dragon lineage, for instance, you get most of the abilities of a half-dragon character -- the type, AC, special attacks, and special qualities -- with _no_ level adjustment. The half-dragon character has a +3 LA. Even without the ability bonuses, hit dice bonuses, and regular attacks, I think the benefits at level 20 are equivalent to  at least a +1 LA. 

Are there any other classes that give you a big pile of benefits at 20th level that are not part of a steady, something-each-level progression?

I realize the 20th-level benefits are designed to keep the class attractive all the way through 20th level. But suppose I never expect the character to get that far, due to (say) finishing college, moving, etc. In that case, there's no incentive to go past 14th level in the class, when the fear effect gets refined and useful. (Speaking of which, the 8th-level version of same seems like it might be more of a handicap than a benefit, since it affects your friends as well as your foes....) My thought would be to spread that bunch of effects from 20th level out a bit.


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## Mark Causey (Apr 20, 2004)

I've been following your dedicated work off and on for a while now, Khaalis. Forgive me, though, if I haven't read every post; if I'm being repetitive, then at least accept my praise!

I was going to comment on your description of Spells, specifically the first paragraph, last sentence. However, as I was writing this, I realized it was a direct quote from the PHB.

What a weird sentence structure. On first read it made it seem like clerics and wizards cast spontaneously. Anywho, I guess when you revise something like that, it's best to stick with what they wrote than to rewrite and confuse someone more.

Uhm, I've got a question for you. What prompted you to discard the 5/15 level Augment Familiar ability? I had a character concept based off of that alone ... I had imagined someone who was just a natural in the Wizard college, was so good in fact that he never needed his book to memorize his spells ... then one day his cat familiar grew fey-like wings, and he knew something was .. a little off.

Also, would you be willing to make another Lineage? I was thinking of something like this:

An experiment gone wrong long ago made a clone of a powerful spellcaster but he never had a chance to transfer his power and mind to within his new body. This new body eventually was discovered, and it was brought back to society ... years later, some people claim to be his descendent.

Thus, I was thinking about a Living Construct Lineage ... 

Once again, if none of this is helpful, imagine it all as praises!


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## Khaalis (Apr 20, 2004)

Hey all. Sorry I haven’t posted in a while, but I usually rely on the automated email system to let me know if someone has posted rather than coming to the boards, but for some reason none of the last 4 responses have triggered an email notification. Oh well… on with the replies.

First – Thanks for all the compliments. It is not just my idea, but a conglomerate of many people’s ideas and input. It is a far cry from where I started the class all those months back. Thanks to everyone for their continued support of the project.

*Replies…*


			
				Axegrrl said:
			
		

> I'm curious what discussion there's been about the whompin' amount of benefits given at 20th level. (Got a link?)  Are there any other classes that give you a big pile of benefits at 20th level that are not part of a steady, something-each-level progression?




As for a link, there are a few too many to list. The thread has been so long that going back to dig out all of the references would be difficult at best. It has been discussed. Some were for, some were against, but in general it was felt to be a decent balance as an inspiration to stay in the class, especially when weighed against the alternative PrC options.  As for other classes, only the Monk gives a similar benefit (from the core classes), though various PrC’s do as well.  This solution may not be the best alternative, but it is one I find attractive and at least makes a player “think about it” before dumping levels in sorcerer to another class.

In the end there is NO way to really inspire a class to remain single class until 20th level. Not with the attractiveness of PrCs and multiclassing in general. There are few who would not be better off, even with the “power level” of the 20th level transformations, NOT to take a PrC such as Incantrix, Archmage, Shadow Adept, etc.  In the end it was basically decided that in 90% of the cases where “power level” is an issue, it is a mute point anyway since the character will be Optimized using PrC’s rather than the 20th level ability.

I notice in your comments below that you are weighing the class in terms of Character Optimization (ei: Power Design).  It is correct that if you are going to abandon 20th level acquisition then there are “optimal” levels to aim for with the class.  In most cases this depends on what you want out of the class and what you are “optimizing” with.



> In the dragon lineage, for instance, you get most of the abilities of a half-dragon character -- the type, AC, special attacks, and special qualities -- with _no_ level adjustment. The half-dragon character has a +3 LA. Even without the ability bonuses, hit dice bonuses, and regular attacks, I think the benefits at level 20 are equivalent to  at least a +1 LA.
> I realize the 20th-level benefits are designed to keep the class attractive all the way through 20th level. But suppose I never expect the character to get that far, due to (say) finishing college, moving, etc.
> In that case, there's no incentive to go past 14th level in the class, when the fear effect gets refined and useful. (Speaking of which, the 8th-level version of same seems like it might be more of a handicap than a benefit, since it affects your friends as well as your foes....) My thought would be to spread that bunch of effects from 20th level out a bit.




Ok, lets look at the Dragon in a comparison. Most of these ideas were taken as inspiration from the Dragon Disciple PrC, but with the physical transformations (wings & natural weapons) removed for aesthetics purposes. I personally don’t like the “gross” (as in largely obvious) physical transformations in a class ability.  It was also decided not to recreate the Dragon Disciple exactly, instead giving it something a bit different yet still distinctly draconic (thus the fear aura).  As far as the LA, the Dragon Disciple as presented in the DMG/SRD shows the logic and validity of assigning a template without the LA as a class ability, and in my version, I don’t even grant the Flight, Blindsense, Natural Weapons, D12 HD, Bonus Spells, and Ability Score increases that the Dragon Disciple does.  As much as I *HATE* to admit it, a Draconic Sorcerer is _still_ actually almost better off taking 10 levels of the Dragon Disciple PrC or the ½-Dragon Template and burning those Sorcerer levels rather than attaining 20th level. This in and of itself makes it balanced in that 20th level in sorcerer is still the lesser option.  

*Draconic Lineage:* At 20th level, a draconic sorcerer gains the following benefits.
•	Gains the Dragon Type (Augmented Subtype) = No longer affected by “Humanoid” spells such as _Charm Person, Enlarge Person, etc._.
•	Darkvision out to 60’ and Low-Light Vision.
•	Gains a +4 natural armor bonus.
•	Gains a Breath Weapon usable once per day that deals 6d8 points of damage (Ref DC 10 + 1/2 the sorcerer’s HD + the sorcerer’s Constitution modifier).
•	Gains Immunity to magical sleep effects and paralysis effects and to one energy type based on lineage. (Black, Copper & Green = Acid; Blue & Bronze = Electricity; Brass, Gold & Red = Fire; Silver & White = Cold)

*Half-Dragon Template* (per SRD)
As Draconic Lineage… *PLUS*
•	Natural Weapons: 2 Claws (Primary) + Bite (Secondary) allowing an attack routine of 3 Attacks at any level at +0/+0/-5 modifiers; Can also use standard weapon attack with a free secondary Claw and Bite attacks at -5 penalties on the claw/bite.
•	Ability Increases: Strength +8, Con +2, Int +2, Cha +2
•	If Large: Gains Wings = Fly speed at double land speed)

*Dragon Disciple* (per SRD)
*Dragon Apotheosis:* At 10th level - acquires the Half-Dragon Template... *PLUS*
•	Bonus Spells
•	Wings – Regardless of Original Size
•	Blindsense
•	10D12 HD




			
				adamantineangel said:
			
		

> Uhm, I've got a question for you. What prompted you to discard the 5/15 level Augment Familiar ability? I had a character concept based off of that alone ... I had imagined someone who was just a natural in the Wizard college, was so good in fact that he never needed his book to memorize his spells ... then one day his cat familiar grew fey-like wings, and he knew something was .. a little off.




After much discussion on the topic of Familiars it was determined that one of the big issues most people have with the sorcerer is the familiar.  Firstly, familiars are a long lost hold over to fantasy wizards due to Shakespeare and other such classic representations of the “Witch and her black cat”. It was also determined that the familiar for the most part (with the exception of certain lineages) should remain a boon to the wizard if for no other reason than by following the flavor text, sorcerers are not educated in the necessary arcane rituals needed to summon a familiar. Thus familiars were dropped for the most part.



> Also, would you be willing to make another Lineage?



The system of design for this class was originally and specifically designed to allow for the new creation of lineages, similar to the template class designs by Monte Cook: the Witch, Champion and Totem Warrior.



> I was thinking of something like this: An experiment gone wrong long ago made a clone of a powerful spellcaster but he never had a chance to transfer his power and mind to within his new body. This new body eventually was discovered, and it was brought back to society ... years later, some people claim to be his descendent.  Thus, I was thinking about a Living Construct Lineage ...
> Once again, if none of this is helpful, imagine it all as praises!




Living Constructs… hmmm. Sounds a bit like the Warforged from Eberron. Not sure you could do much with this as a lineage however…

The first things you have to ask are: 

What is it to be of a Construct Lineage?
What or who is the progenitor (how did they come to exist)?
Are the sorcerers actually constructs or are they just descendents of a clone? If the remains of a clone – they wouldn’t really be constructs…
Are they magical experiments, or a cloning gone wrong? (Think Alias from Azure Bonds)
What makes them unique?
What properties do they have?
What magical affinities do they have?
What skill affinities fit the lineage?

As a base line from the SRD we have:
*Construct Type:* A construct is an animated object or artificially constructed creature.
Traits: A construct possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).
—No Constitution score.
—Low-light vision.
—Darkvision out to 60 feet.
—Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).
—Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease , death effects, and necromancy effects.
—Cannot heal damage on their own, but often can be repaired by exposing them to a certain kind of effect (see the creature’s description for details) or through the use of the Craft Construct feat. A construct with the fast healing special quality still benefits from that quality.
—Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability damage, ability drain, fatigue, exhaustion, or energy drain.
—Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects, or is harmless).
—Not at risk of death from massive damage. Immediately destroyed when reduced to 0 hit points or less.
—Since it was never alive, a construct cannot be raised or resurrected.
—Because its body is a mass of unliving matter, a construct is hard to destroy. It gains bonus hit points based on size, as shown on the following table (Small 10, Medium 20, Large 30)
—Proficient with its natural weapons only, unless generally humanoid in form, in which case proficient with any weapon mentioned in its entry.
—Proficient with no armor.
—Constructs do not eat, sleep, or breathe.

However since it needs to be “Living” we could also look to the following as a guide:
*Native Subtype:* A subtype applied only to outsiders. These creatures have mortal ancestors or a strong connection to the Material Plane and can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. Creatures with this subtype are native to the Material Plane (hence the subtype’s name). Unlike true outsiders, native outsiders need to eat and sleep. 

Compare this with the Warforged from Eberron:
*Living Construct (Ex):* A living construct is a subtype of construct, given sentience and free will through powerful and complex creation enchantments. A living construct is a sentient, artificially constructed creature that combines aspects of both constructs and living beings. As a living construct a warforged has the following features:
-A warforged gets its HD, BAB, Saves, and Skill Points from the class it selects.
-As a created life form, a warforged has a Constitution score.
-A warforged only has normal vision.
-As a living construct, spells that target constructs as well as those that target living creatures affect the warforged. Because of this, damage dealt can be healed by a _cure light wounds_ spell or a _repair light damage_ spell, and they are vulnerable to _disable construct_ and _harm_. However, spells from the healing subschool provide only half effect for a warforged.
-Not immune to mind-affecting spells.
-Immune to poison, _sleep_, paralysis, disease, nausea, energy drain, fatigue and exhaustion.
-Not immune to death effects or necromancy effects, except those mentioned as immunities.
-0hp = disabled; -1 to -9 = inert.
-Does not heal naturally (only magically).
-Subject to criticals, nonlethal damage, ability damage, ability drain.
-Does not need to eat, sleep, or breath; but can benefit from consumable magic.
-Can be _raised_ or _resurrected_.

From here – what do you see as the core of the lineage?

Look forward to responses.


----------



## Mark Causey (Apr 20, 2004)

Wow, I've been reading too much about Eberron. It's influencing my speech patterns  :\ 

I believe I was looking for someone with a slightly alien mindset and strange abilities and the first thing I thought of was a clone. But, there are probably many more experiments on other kinds of creatures than just for the purpose of a replacement body (if the Monster Manuals and Fiend Folio are any evidence). Thus, I was actually looking for the descendents of magical experimentation on humanoid races, an Abberation.

Aberration Type: An aberration has a bizarre anatomy, strange abilities, an alien mindset, or any combination of the three.

Traits: An aberration possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

—Darkvision out to 60 feet.

—Proficient with its natural weapons. If generally humanoid in form, proficient with all simple weapons and any weapon it is described as using.

—Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Aberrations not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Aberrations are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.

—Aberrations eat, sleep, and breathe.

So, the core concept of having Aberration Ancestry would be one of the three defining characteristics of an Aberration Type.

Aberrant Lineage: Aberrant sorcerers are the descendant of a magical experiment that had no obvious effects on the subject, who was thus released back into society, or possibly rescued, and continued their lives as normally as they could. Further generations bore out a subtle arcane energy within themselves, and their lineage bore sorcerers. Aberrant sorcerers of whatever base race find others of their 'kind' and most other humanoids to be strange and somewhat alien. They seek to understand more about themselves and the alien world they live in. These sorcerers gain the following abilities and restrictions:

Benefits: Aberrant sorcerers gain an inherent +1 bonus to Sense Motive and Gather Information checks as they often practice at learning who is doing what and why. However, as they bear more arcane energy from within than can be handled under normal circumstances, it focuses itself in ways almost as alien as the sorcerer themself. Aberrant sorcerers can make a Confusing Gaze a number of times per day equal to 3 + sorcerer's Cha modifier. 

[Confusing Gaze (Su): Any creature within 30 feet that meets the sorcerer's gaze is affected as if by confusion (caster level equal to sorcerer's caster level; Will DC 15 negates)]

Finally, Sorcerers can manipulate magical energy much in the way that their ancestors were manipulated. They are able to choose any spell from the Abjuration or Transmutation schools.

Special Limitation: Aberrant sorcerers are heavily influenced by the will and energies used to create their ancestor, and through that chaotic will, they must always be Chaotic, and this shows in their Aura as well. Aberrant sorcerers can never use any item or spell that has the Law descriptor. Any Aberrant sorcerer that pushes themselves to other alignments along the Law-Chaos axis find that they are suppressing the mystical energy within themselves and can never progress in the Sorcerer class again. Also, Aberrant sorcerers find their minds somewhat malleable to others and suffer a -2 penalty against Mind Affecting spells and effects, and have trouble with Illusions, never receiving the +4 bonus from communication from others that an illusion is present.

Lineage Spells: The Aberrant sorcerer has a specific affinity with aberrant magic that manifests in a Lineage Spell List. These Lineage spells may never be changed through spell swapping or through spell evolution, but only through Innate Ability Evolution. These Lineage Spells are gained as bonus known spells as soon as the sorcerer is able to cast spells of that level. The sorcerer gains the Aberrant Lineage spell list. Aberrant Lineage Spell List: 0 - Flare, 1 - Endure Elements, 2 - Spider Climb, 3 - Fly, 4 - Stoneskin, 5 - Telekinesis, 6 - Transformation, 7 - Spell Turning, 8 - Iron Body, 9 - Freedom.

Lineage Abilities: The Aberrant sorcerer's connection with the chaotic magic within themselves becomes stronger as they become more attuned with their own volatile natures, and that of others. At 8th Level, the sorcerer gains the feat Arcane Strike (Complete Warrior) for free, as they can tap into their internal mutable energy and bring it forth in unusual ways. At 14th Level, the sorcerer's heritage becomes much more evident as some part of the experiment comes forth in the form of a natural attack which deals damage per the sorcerer's size. The sorcerer can choose to gain one of the following: Bite, Claw, Gore, Slam or Talon. Once chosen, this can never be reversed. The sorcerer also gains the Weapon Focus feat for their natural attack. Note, Arcane Strike can be made through the natural weapon attack. At 20th Level, the sorcerer's heritage transforms her fully, and she changes type to Aberrant (no change in Hit Die, BAB, or skill points is made). This leaves them immune to any spell that targets humanoids only, and they also gain Darkvision out to 60'. The swirling arcane energies within them lash out at other magic and grant her Spell Resistance of 30 and her body's transformation finalizes with granting her Damage Resistance of 15/Law.

How's that?

AtR


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## Khaalis (Apr 21, 2004)

adamantineangel said:
			
		

> I believe I was looking for someone with a slightly alien mindset and strange abilities and the first thing I thought of was a clone. But, there are probably many more experiments on other kinds of creatures than just for the purpose of a replacement body (if the Monster Manuals and Fiend Folio are any evidence). Thus, I was actually looking for the descendents of magical experimentation on humanoid races, an Abberation.
> Aberration Type: An aberration has a bizarre anatomy, strange abilities, an alien mindset, or any combination of the three.
> Traits: An aberration possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).
> —Darkvision out to 60 feet.
> ...




So basically a Magical Experiment lineage?
The problem I have is how this works. Considering some SRD Aberrations = Aboleth, Athach, Choker, Chuul, Cloaker, Drider, Ethereal Filcher, Ettercap, Gibbering Mouther, Grick, Otyugh, Phasm, Rust Monster, Skum.

How would these be introduced into a humanoid sorcerer?  Wouldn’t Monstrous Humanoid be more fitting? Something more along the lines of experiments with: Centaur, Gargoyle, Grimlock, Hag, Harpy, etc?  Just trying to get a better picture of where/how/why the lineage exists. It mostly comes down to semantics but the application of the correct type is a bit important.

*Monstrous Humanoid Type:* Monstrous humanoids are similar to humanoids, but with monstrous or animalistic features. They often have magical abilities as well.
_Traits:_ A monstrous humanoid possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).
—Darkvision out to 60 feet.
—Proficient with all simple weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
—Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Monstrous humanoids not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Monstrous humanoids are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
—Monstrous humanoids eat, sleep, and breathe.




> Aberrant Lineage: Aberrant sorcerers are the descendant of a magical experiment that had no obvious effects on the subject, who was thus released back into society, or possibly rescued, and continued their lives as normally as they could. Further generations bore out a subtle arcane energy within themselves, and their lineage bore sorcerers. Aberrant sorcerers of whatever base race find others of their 'kind' and most other humanoids to be strange and somewhat alien. They seek to understand more about themselves and the alien world they live in. These sorcerers gain the following abilities and restrictions:




What is it that is making them Aberrant? How are they alien?



> Benefits: Aberrant sorcerers gain an inherent +1 bonus to Sense Motive and Gather Information checks as they often practice at learning who is doing what and why.




If they are of alien mindset, wouldn’t they have a harder time with these skills? I would think that a good Restriction for them would be that all Social Skills suffered a penalty due to their alien nature which would influence their dealings with others.

I could see gaining Survival as a class skill and a +1 to Intimidate skill checks. Survival because they are used to being on their own and fending for themselves. The +1 to intimidate due to their strangeness and alienisms.



> However, as they bear more arcane energy from within than can be handled under normal circumstances, it focuses itself in ways almost as alien as the sorcerer themself. Aberrant sorcerers can make a Confusing Gaze a number of times per day equal to 3 + sorcerer's Cha modifier.
> [Confusing Gaze (Su): Any creature within 30 feet that meets the sorcerer's gaze is affected as if by confusion (caster level equal to sorcerer's caster level; Will DC 15 negates)]




I would make the save scaling rather than static, such as (Will DC 10 + ½ the sorcerer’s level + sorcerer’s Charisma modifier / Negates).



> Finally, Sorcerers can manipulate magical energy much in the way that their ancestors were manipulated. They are able to choose any spell from the Abjuration or Transmutation schools.




Need to add … “regardless of the spell list they come from.” to the end.  

Why these schools? I would lean more toward Abjuration and Illusion.

Examples of Transmutation and Abjuration (non-Wiz) from SRD A-L: Air Walk, Align Weapon, Animal Shapes, Animate Objects, Animate Plants, Antilife Shell, Antiplant Shell, Atonement, Awaken, Barkskin, Bless Water, Bless Weapon, Changestaff, Chill Metal, Cloak of Chaos, Command Plants, Control Plants, Control Winds, Diminish Plants, Dispel Chaos, Dispel Evil, Dispel Good, Dispel Law, Disrupting Weapon, Entangle, Entropic Shield, Forbiddance, Freedom of Movement, Giant Vermin, Glibness, Glyph of Warding, Glyph of Warding-Greater, Goodberry, Heat Metal, Hide from Animals, Hide from Undead, Holy Aura, Ironwood, Liveoak, Longstrider…



> Special Limitation: Aberrant sorcerers are heavily influenced by the will and energies used to create their ancestor, and through that chaotic will, they must always be Chaotic, and this shows in their Aura as well. Aberrant sorcerers can never use any item or spell that has the Law descriptor. Any Aberrant sorcerer that pushes themselves to other alignments along the Law-Chaos axis find that they are suppressing the mystical energy within themselves and can never progress in the Sorcerer class again. Also, Aberrant sorcerers find their minds somewhat malleable to others and suffer a -2 penalty against Mind Affecting spells and effects, and have trouble with Illusions, never receiving the +4 bonus from communication from others that an illusion is present.




Ok, this is the first mention of the influence of Chaos. This should be more clearly defined in the original description.   I would say that the general feel of this is that they are almost more of a Chaos Extraplanar influence, kind of a Chaos Sorcerer. This would lean me to the Outsider/Native more so than Aberration.
Also why the penalty on Mind-Affecting effects and Illusions? Being alien and chaotic in nature I would think it harder to influence their minds and harder to influence them with illusions. Illusions are based on a basic understanding of what the viewer expects.  For example, an Illusory door is made to look like oak with iron bindings and hinges because that is what most expect to see. However, someone that is rather alien may not expect that, thus would be harder to predict what they expect and thus harder to fool with illusions. Also considering the chaotic bent, Illusion fits very well with that aspect. 

I would however give them a substantial penalty on Divination magic (such as casting at -1 caster level) as it is harder for them to understand that which they see and hear, as well as probably disallowing any _Charm_ denominated spells as they just do not have the social understanding to control other’s minds. Being quite alien I would also give the afore mentioned social penalties as well. I would also have them suffer the standard listed penalties against the banned LAW denominator.



> Lineage Spells: The Aberrant sorcerer has a specific affinity with aberrant magic that manifests in a Lineage Spell List. These Lineage spells may never be changed through spell swapping or through spell evolution, but only through Innate Ability Evolution. These Lineage Spells are gained as bonus known spells as soon as the sorcerer is able to cast spells of that level. The sorcerer gains the Aberrant Lineage spell list. Aberrant Lineage Spell List: 0 - Flare, 1 - Endure Elements, 2 - Spider Climb, 3 - Fly, 4 - Stoneskin, 5 - Telekinesis, 6 - Transformation, 7 - Spell Turning, 8 - Iron Body, 9 - Freedom.




Why these spells? I would have leaned more toward the chaotic/alien aspect…
_0 - prestidigitation, 1 – lesser confusion, 2 - misdirection, 3 – blink (or displacement), 4 - confusion, 5 - mislead, 6 - repulsion, 7 - spell turning, 8 – cloak of chaos, 9 – freedom (or storm of vengeance)_



> Lineage Abilities: The Aberrant sorcerer's connection with the chaotic magic within themselves becomes stronger as they become more attuned with their own volatile natures, and that of others. At 8th Level, the sorcerer gains the feat Arcane Strike (Complete Warrior) for free, as they can tap into their internal mutable energy and bring it forth in unusual ways.




Great ability, but why?   From a Gaze Attack at 1st to Arcane Strike at 8th? I am not sure where this fits in with the Aberration or Chaos aspects.



> At 14th Level, the sorcerer's heritage becomes much more evident as some part of the experiment comes forth in the form of a natural attack which deals damage per the sorcerer's size. The sorcerer can choose to gain one of the following: Bite, Claw, Gore, Slam or Talon. Once chosen, this can never be reversed. The sorcerer also gains the Weapon Focus feat for their natural attack. Note, Arcane Strike can be made through the natural weapon attack.




I can understand that this is from a Physical Transformation into an aberration. I personally am not a fan of permanent physical transformations but I can see where this is coming from. Kind of like the Oozemaster, Geomancer, Dragon Disciple, etc.  If you stuck with this aspect, I would limit it to Claws (Talon is the same thing), Slam and Gore (with the appropriate physical changes for Claws and Gore). I would also fully detail this section with the exact specifics of the damage by size category, whether it is considered armed or unarmed attack, etc. Instead of Weapon Focus, I might think about Monk’s Ki Strike (magic) as you are trying to make the class reliant on their natural form as a weapon.



> At 20th Level, the sorcerer's heritage transforms her fully, and she changes type to Aberrant (no change in Hit Die, BAB, or skill points is made). This leaves them immune to any spell that targets humanoids only, and they also gain Darkvision out to 60'. The swirling arcane energies within them lash out at other magic and grant her Spell Resistance of 30 and her body's transformation finalizes with granting her Damage Resistance of 15/Law.




For these I would go with:
* Darkvision 60’
* Damage Reduction 10/law 
* SR 30
* Ki Strike increases to magic and Chaos.

Just my humble thoughts. Hope it helps you to solidify your idea. Overall my personal impression would almost be that they are Slaad Lineage.


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## Ferret (Apr 21, 2004)

The first paragraph or so on the shapechanger lineage split it between were's and other shape changers, "Shifter sorcerers are  the descendant of a 
natural shapeshifter such as a doppelganger or were-creature far in 
their  family's past. These sorcerers gain  the  following abilities and 
restrictions."

Yet non of the abilities are suited to anything other then a Were creature's descendent.

Why not a lunar lineage that is seperate?


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## Mark Causey (Apr 21, 2004)

Khaalis said:
			
		

> Also why the penalty on Mind-Affecting effects and Illusions? Being alien and chaotic in nature I would think it harder to influence their minds and harder to influence them with illusions. Illusions are based on a basic understanding of what the viewer expects.




I had originally imagined the alien mindset as making the individual unable to distinguish between these weird people here and that weird looking wall there, but I can see your point about it being based off of expectation.

Let's try this again:

Chaotic Lineage: Chaotic sorcerers are the descendant of one of many possiblities that have led to them being an arcane receptacle of chaotic energies. Possibilities include some distant magical experiment with Chaos magic or conception occurring on the Plane of Chaos; but most likely the Chaos Sorcerer has a direct line of descent from Chaotic Outsiders. However the sorcerer has found herself here, she and others like her share some common characteristics that include finding others of their 'kind' and most other humanoids to be strange and somewhat alien. These self-same humanoids find her alien and somewhat apprehensive, as well, although they probably have no solid idea why. Still, the Chaos sorcerer seek to understand more about themselves and the alien world they live in. These sorcerers gain the following abilities and restrictions:

Benefits: Chaos sorcerers gain an inherent Survival as a class skill and a +1 to Intimidate skill checks. Often, they find themselves out on their own, fending for themselves. Their alien qualities lend themselves to Intimidation, whether intentional or not. They bear their arcane energy closer to the surface than most other spellcasters, and while that energy from within can usually be handled under most circumstances, it focuses itself in ways almost as alien as the sorcerer themself. Chaos sorcerers can make a Lesser Confusing Gaze a number of times per day equal to 3 + sorcerer's Cha modifier. 

[Lesser Confusing Gaze (Su): Any creature within 30 feet that meets the sorcerer's gaze is affected as if by lesser confusion (caster level equal to sorcerer's caster level; Will DC 10 +  ½ the sorcerer’s level + sorcerer’s Charisma modifier / Will negates)]

Finally, Chaos sorcerers can manipulate magical energy in a Chaotic fashion and find that they are able to choose any spell from the Abjuration and Illusion schools, regardless of the spell list.

Special Limitation: Chaos sorcerers are heavily influenced by the nature of their ancestor or the nature of the experiment, and because of that Chaotic heritage, they must always be Chaotic, and this shows in their Aura as well. Chaos sorcerers can never use any item or spell that has the Law descriptor. Any Chaos sorcerer that pushes themselves to other alignments along the Law-Chaos axis find that they are suppressing the mystical energy within themselves and can never progress in the Sorcerer class again. Also, Chaos sorcerers find their personalities alien to others and suffer a -2 penalty against on all Social skills, except for Intimidate, which they excel at, willingly or unwillingly. They have trouble with Divination, never having a good mental reference for what they see or hear, suffering a -1 caster level on these spells.

Lineage Spells: The Chaos sorcerer has a specific affinity with chaos magic that manifests in a Lineage Spell List. These Lineage spells may never be changed through spell swapping or through spell evolution, but only through Innate Ability Evolution. These Lineage Spells are gained as bonus known spells as soon as the sorcerer is able to cast spells of that level. The sorcerer gains the Aberrant Lineage spell list. Chaotic Lineage Spell List: 0 - Prestidigitation, 1 – Lesser confusion, 2 - Misdirection, 3 – Displacement, 4 - Confusion, 5 - Mislead, 6 - Repulsion, 7 - Spell turning, 8 – Cloak of Chaos, 9 – Freedom.

Lineage Abilities: The Chaos sorcerer's connection with the chaotic magic within themselves becomes stronger as they become more attuned with their own volatile natures, and that of others. At 8th Level, the sorcerer's Lesser Confusing Gaze becomes a Confusing Gaze, with the creature affected as per the spell, Confusion. The sorcerer can choose, if they wish, to downgrade their Gaze to Lesser Confusion at the time of the Gaze. At 14th Level, the sorcerer's Gaze symbolizes their true Chaotic power and becomes a Gaze of Insanity, with the creature affected as per the spell, Insanity. The sorcerer can choose, if they wish, to downgrade their Gaze to Lesser Confusion or Confusion at the time of the Gaze. At 20th Level, the sorcerer's heritage transforms her fully. Her soul and her body merge to become one unit, and she changes type to Outsider (Chaotic, Native), but no change in Hit Die, BAB, or skill points is made. This leaves her immune to any spell that targets humanoids only, and she also gains Darkvision out to 60'. The swirling arcane energies within them lash out at other magic and grant her Spell Resistance of 30 and her body's transformation finalizes with granting her Damage Resistance of 10/Law.

How's that? 

AtR


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## Imret (Apr 21, 2004)

Khaalis said:
			
		

> After much discussion on the topic of Familiars it was determined that one of the big issues most people have with the sorcerer is the familiar.  Firstly, familiars are a long lost hold over to fantasy wizards due to Shakespeare and other such classic representations of the “Witch and her black cat”. It was also determined that the familiar for the most part (with the exception of certain lineages) should remain a boon to the wizard if for no other reason than by following the flavor text, sorcerers are not educated in the necessary arcane rituals needed to summon a familiar. Thus familiars were dropped for the most part.




Been lurking the thread for a while - significantly impressed, by the way. Some serious work has been put into this, obviously, and it's not only well thought-out, it's distinctive enough to not make the sorcerer "bookless wizards". But I just wanted to drop my two cents on this.


I recognize I may be in the minority on this, but I've always been a little stuck on the wizard getting a familiar. The wizard learns his arcane talents in relative isolation, learning to weave the patterns of the world into a form useful to him, where the sorcerer does the same by force of personality. It just seems a little more logical, to me, that the caster whose personal magnetism powers his magic gains the aid of a small animal, drawn to him by the vagaries of magic and changing as his power grows.

If one uses the "familiars must be bound by a specific ritual" formula, then it should be a wizard-only trait. If the animal's connection to the caster is less clearly defined, my own mind leans towards sorcerer-only.

But I suppose it is a sacred cow, so to speak, and it's hard to find something to give to wizards in place of it. The item familiar concept is neat, but...animals can run away. This can be incredibly important, if one's DM is malicious.   

/hijack

But yeah. Anyway. Great work!


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## Khaalis (Apr 22, 2004)

*Shifter Reply - 1st of 3*



			
				Ferret said:
			
		

> The first paragraph or so on the shapechanger lineage split it between were's and other shape changers, "Shifter sorcerers are  the descendant of a
> natural shapeshifter such as a doppelganger or were-creature far in
> their  family's past. These sorcerers gain  the  following abilities and
> restrictions."
> ...




Hmm… actually I tried to make the abilities to enfold both sides of the shapechanger coin. There are 2 distinct types of shifters – Were-creatures and the Doppelganger/Slaad/Rakshasa group.

Lets look at it piece by piece.

1st - Disguise Class skill, Disguise & Bluff Skill Bonuses: Doppelganger/Rakshasa/Slaad based
1st - _Alter Self_: Doppelganger/Rakshasa/Slaad based
1st - Can Learn All appearance or shape altering spells: Doppelganger/Rakshasa/Slaad based
1st - Can Learn All Compulsion spells: Doppelganger/Rakshasa/Slaad based
8th – Were-Shape Animal/Hybrid: Were-creature based
14th – Improved Were-Shape: Were-creature based
20th – Were-Appearance: Were-creature based
20th – Darkvision: Shapechanger Type (All)
20th – Scent: Were-creature based
20th – Spell Resistance: Rakshasa/Slaad based
20th – DR 15/Silver: Were-creature based (Only by default, though other Shapeshifters get DR as well but to varied damage types and I didn’t want to bring something like “Holy” into the mix).

Shifter Lineage Spell List: Doppelganger/Rakshasa/Slaad based
_0–prestidigitation; 1st-disguise self; 2nd-detect thoughts; 3rd-suggestion; 4th-polymorph; 5th-baleful polymorph; 6th-mislead; 7th-statue; 8th-iron body; 9th-shapechange_

Overall it comes out to:
Doppelganger/Rakshasa/Slaad based: 6 abilities
Were-creature based: 5
Shapechanger all: 1 ability

I think it came out relatively balanced between the two types.

Now with that said, there is no reason you cant toss the Shifter and go with a design of your own taste. Again, these lineages are just examples of the overall template.  Technically you could make 4 Lineages from this one concept, though there would be quite a bit of overlap.

For a purely Lycanthrope lineage I would grant something like this:

*Skills:* Handle Animal and Survival as class skills
*Spells:* Learn all Transmutation spells, and all spells with the Animal designator regardless of spell list.
*Banned:* Necromancy, energy descriptors

*Abilities*
1st – Feral Focus (3+Cha mod/day): Temporarily gain a +2 bonus to Strength, a +2 bonus to Constitution, and a +1 morale bonus on Will saves, , but he takes a –1 penalty to Armor Class. The increase in Constitution increases the sorcerer’s hit points by 1 points per level, but these hit points go away at the end of the focus when their Constitution score drops back to normal. (These extra hit points are not lost first the way temporary hit points are.) While focused, a sorcerer cannot use any Charisma or Intelligence-based skills, or any abilities that requires social interaction or cognitive thought including casting spells or activating magic items that require a command word, a spell trigger (such as a wand), or spell completion (such as a scroll) to function. They can use any feat they have except Combat Expertise, item creation feats, and metamagic feats. A fit of feral focus lasts for a number of rounds equal to 3 + the sorcerer’s (newly improved) Constitution modifier. A sorcerer may prematurely end their focus. At the end of the focus, the sorcerer loses the feral focus modifiers and restrictions and becomes fatigued (–2 penalty to Strength, –2 penalty to Dexterity, can’t charge or run) for the duration of the current encounter.  A sorcerer can only use feral focus once per encounter. Entering a feral focus takes no time itself, but a sorcerer can do it only during their action, not in response to someone else’s action.
8th – Were-Shape Animal/Hybrid: As Shifter
14th – Improved Were-Shape: As Shifter
20th - At 20th level, a lycanthropic sorcerer gains the Lycanthrope (Natural) template, choosing an animal type based on alignment as follows, though the sorcerer’s alignment does not change to that of the typical lycanthrope’s.
Werebear if the sorcerer is LG, NG, LN or CG
Wereboar or Weretiger if the sorcerer is N, NG, NE, LN or CN
Wererat if the sorcerer is LE, LN or NE
Werewolf if the sorcerer is CE, CN or NE
•	Also gain Darkvision out to 60’ (from Shapechanger subtype)
•	The lycanthropic sorcerer’s damage reduction improves to 15/silver. 

*Shifter Lineage Spell List:* _0–know direction; 1st-longstrider (or speak with animals); 2nd-bull’s strength; 3rd-greater magic fang; 4th-polymorph; 5th-overland flight; 6th-transformation; 7th-summon natures ally VII; 8th-animal shapes; 9th-shapechange_


Thoughts?


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## Khaalis (Apr 22, 2004)

*Alien Reply – 2nd of 3*



			
				adamantineangel said:
			
		

> I had originally imagined the alien mindset as making the individual unable to distinguish between these weird people here and that weird looking wall there, but I can see your point about it being based off of expectation.



Wasn’t trying to slam it or anything. Hope you understood that. I was just having trouble getting a full picture of the lineage from the way it was described mixed with its abilities.



> Chaotic Lineage: Chaotic sorcerers are the descendant of one of many possibilities that have led to them being an arcane receptacle of chaotic energies. Possibilities include some distant magical experiment with Chaos magic or conception occurring on the Plane of Chaos; but most likely the Chaos Sorcerer has a direct line of descent from Chaotic Outsiders. However the sorcerer has found herself here, she and others like her share some common characteristics that include finding others of their 'kind' and most other humanoids to be strange and somewhat alien. These self-same humanoids find her alien and somewhat apprehensive, as well, although they probably have no solid idea why. Still, the Chaos sorcerer seek to understand more about themselves and the alien world they live in. These sorcerers gain the following abilities and restrictions:




If I might suggest some editorial edits?…

*Chaos Lineage:* Chaos sorcerers derive their chaotic power from a multitude of possibilities such as being exposed to a connection to a plane of chaos at birth, experiments involving chaos magic, or by being the direct descendent of a chaotic outsider species from one of the various the planes of chaos such as the Slaad who revel in mixing with humanoids on the material plane. Chaos sorcerers, seeing the world through their inherent chaotic nature tend to regard most other beings to be somewhat strange or alien, only truly finding themselves at ease with others that see the world from the same perspective. At the same time, the chaos sorcerer is usually seen as an oddity at best by others as well, since their views and interactions with the world around them seem just as alien to others as most beings seem to the chaos sorcerer.



> Benefits: Chaos sorcerers gain an inherent Survival as a class skill and a +1 to Intimidate skill checks. Often, they find themselves out on their own, fending for themselves. Their alien qualities lend themselves to Intimidation, whether intentional or not. They bear their arcane energy closer to the surface than most other spellcasters, and while that energy from within can usually be handled under most circumstances, it focuses itself in ways almost as alien as the sorcerer themself. Chaos sorcerers can make a Lesser Confusing Gaze a number of times per day equal to 3 + sorcerer's Cha modifier.
> [Lesser Confusing Gaze (Su): Any creature within 30 feet that meets the sorcerer's gaze is affected as if by lesser confusion (caster level equal to sorcerer's caster level; Will DC 10 +  ½ the sorcerer’s level + sorcerer’s Charisma modifier / Will negates)]
> Finally, Chaos sorcerers can manipulate magical energy in a Chaotic fashion and find that they are able to choose any spell from the Abjuration and Illusion schools, regardless of the spell list.




If I might suggest some editorial/mechanics edits again?…

*Benefits:* Chaos sorcerers gain Survival as a class skill as well as gaining a +1 to all Intimidate skill checks as they often find themselves out on their own, fending for themselves and their alien qualities lend themselves to be rather intimidating to those around them, whether intentional or not. Chaos sorcerers bear their arcane energy closer to the surface than most other spellcasters, and while that energy is usually controlled under most circumstances, it focuses itself in the ability to make use a special supernatural Lesser Confusing Gaze attack a number of times per day equal to 3 + the sorcerer's Charisma modifier. 
*Lesser Confusion Gaze:* This special attack takes effect when opponents look at the sorcerer’s eyes. The gaze attack acts as a _Lesser Confusion_ spell with the following exceptions. The range of the gaze attack is 30 feet and the duration is equal to one round per sorcerer level each time it is activated. The saving throw for a gaze attack is a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 the sorcerer’s level + the sorcerer’s Charisma modifier). A successful saving throw negates the effect.  Each opponent within range of the gaze attack must attempt a saving throw each round at the beginning of their turn in the initiative order. Only looking directly at the chaos sorcerer leaves opponents vulnerable. Opponents can avoid the need to make the saving throw by not looking at the chaos sorcerer, in one of two ways. 
_Averting Eyes:_ The opponent avoids looking at the chaos sorcerer’s face, instead looking at its body, watching its shadow, tracking it in a reflective surface, and so on. Each round, the opponent has a 50% chance to not need to make a saving throw against the gaze attack. The chaos sorcerer with the gaze attack, however, gains concealment against that opponent.
_Wearing a Blindfold:_ The opponent cannot see the chaos sorcerer at all (also possible to achieve by turning one’s back on the sorcerer or shutting one’s eyes). The chaos sorcerer gains total concealment against the opponent. 
The chaos sorcerer can actively gaze as an attack action by choosing a target within range. That opponent must attempt a saving throw but can try to avoid this as described above. Thus, it is possible for an opponent to save against a chaos sorcerer’s gaze twice during the same round, once before the opponent’s action and once during the sorcerer’s turn. 
Gaze attacks can affect ethereal opponents. A chaos sorcerer is immune to the gaze attack of other chaos sorcerers.
Allies of the chaos sorcerer might be affected. All the sorcerer’s allies are considered to be averting their eyes from the sorcerer with the gaze attack, and have a 50% chance to not need to make a saving throw against the gaze attack each round it is activated. 

Additionally, chaos sorcerers can also learn any spell from the Abjuration and Illusion schools of magic as well as any spell with the Chaos descriptor, regardless of the spell list from which it comes.




> Special Limitation: Chaos sorcerers are heavily influenced by the nature of their ancestor or the nature of the experiment, and because of that Chaotic heritage, they must always be Chaotic, and this shows in their Aura as well. Chaos sorcerers can never use any item or spell that has the Law descriptor. Any Chaos sorcerer that pushes themselves to other alignments along the Law-Chaos axis find that they are suppressing the mystical energy within themselves and can never progress in the Sorcerer class again. Also, Chaos sorcerers find their personalities alien to others and suffer a -2 penalty against on all Social skills, except for Intimidate, which they excel at, willingly or unwillingly. They have trouble with Divination, never having a good mental reference for what they see or hear, suffering a -1 caster level on these spells.




Some more editorial/mechanics suggestions again?…

*Special Limitation:* Chaos sorcerers are heavily influenced by the nature of their ancestor or the nature of the experiments used on them. Due to that heritage, chaos sorcerers have a natural connection to the way of chaos and must therefore always be of a chaotic alignment. This natural connection to chaos is so strong that their Aura gives off a strong radiation of chaos in addition to that of their magical aura (see the _Detect Evil_ spell for more details). They may also never learn any spell, spell-like ability or supernatural ability with the Law descriptor nor that belongs to the Law clerical domains. The sorcerer cannot use spell completion or spell trigger items that activate banned spells, as they just do not work for the sorcerer. Chaos sorcerers find their personalities alien to others and find it difficult to relate to most beings, thus suffering a -2 penalty on all Social skills, except for Intimidate which they are naturally adept at. They also have trouble with Divination spells, never really having a good mental reference for what they see or hear in reference to the world around them, and thus suffering a -1 caster level on these spells. Due to their strong affinity to magic of chaos, they are left with a natural weakness toward magic of law, receiving a –2 penalty to all saving throws against any spell, spell-like ability, or supernatural ability of the law descriptor or used by creatures of the law subtype. A chaos sorcerer who becomes any non-chaotic alignment or learns a prohibited spell, spell-like ability or supernatural ability may no longer gain levels as a sorcerer but retains all sorcerer abilities. Also, like a member of any other class, a chaos sorcerer may be a multiclass character, but they face a special restriction. A chaos sorcerer who gains a new class or template that involves racial or bloodline or heredity related abilities that are contradictory to a Chaotic orientation (for example Axiomatic), may never again raise their sorcerer level and loses all sorcerer lineage abilities (including their bonus spells known and lineage based spell-like abilities, but not including weapon proficiencies and standard spells known).



> Lineage Spells: The Chaos sorcerer has a specific affinity with chaos magic that manifests in a Lineage Spell List. These Lineage spells may never be changed through spell swapping or through spell evolution, but only through Innate Ability Evolution. These Lineage Spells are gained as bonus known spells as soon as the sorcerer is able to cast spells of that level. The sorcerer gains the Aberrant Lineage spell list.
> *Chaotic Lineage Spell List:* _0 - prestidigitation, 1 – lesser confusion, 2 - misdirection, 3 – displacement, 4 - confusion, 5 - mislead, 6 - repulsion, 7 - spell turning, 8 – cloak of chaos, 9 – freedom_




I might suggest a few changes. Since they have lesser confusion as a gaze attack, and later confusion, do you want to double it with a required spell that duplicates the same effect? I might suggest replacing lesser confusion and confusion with: _Protection from Law_ at 1st and _Chaos Hammer_ for 4th. Another good substitution might be _Word of Chaos_ for 7th.




> Lineage Abilities: The Chaos sorcerer's connection with the chaotic magic within themselves becomes stronger as they become more attuned with their own volatile natures, and that of others. At 8th Level, the sorcerer's Lesser Confusing Gaze becomes a Confusing Gaze, with the creature affected as per the spell, Confusion. The sorcerer can choose, if they wish, to downgrade their Gaze to Lesser Confusion at the time of the Gaze. At 14th Level, the sorcerer's Gaze symbolizes their true Chaotic power and becomes a Gaze of Insanity, with the creature affected as per the spell, Insanity. The sorcerer can choose, if they wish, to downgrade their Gaze to Lesser Confusion or Confusion at the time of the Gaze. At 20th Level, the sorcerer's heritage transforms her fully. Her soul and her body merge to become one unit, and she changes type to Outsider (Chaotic, Native), but no change in Hit Die, BAB, or skill points is made. This leaves her immune to any spell that targets humanoids only, and she also gains Darkvision out to 60'. The swirling arcane energies within them lash out at other magic and grant her Spell Resistance of 30 and her body's transformation finalizes with granting her Damage Resistance of 10/Law.




Again, just some tweaks? (I would suggest dropping the downgrade on the vision, as it seems a bit off that they would wish to reduce the gaze attack as it is not a permanent effect, but something that is activated only when they wish to use it.)

*Lineage Abilities:* The chaos sorcerer's connection with the chaotic magic within themselves becomes stronger as they become more attuned with their own volatile natures, and that of others. At 8th level, the sorcerer's gaze attacks increases in power from acting as a _Lesser Confusion_ spell to acting as a _Confusion_ spell.
……….At 14th level, the sorcerer's gaze attack is empowered even more by the true chaotic source of their innate power, increasing to act as an _Insanity_ spell. 
………..At 20th level, a chaos sorcerer becomes so attune to their chaotic aura that they become one with their chaotic lineage gaining the outsider type as well as the augmented, native and chaotic subtypes. The sorcerer does not go through any noticeable physical changes however. They are forevermore treated as an outsider rather than as a humanoid (or whatever the sorcerer’s creature type was) for the purpose of spells and magical effects. Additionally, the chaos sorcerer gains the following benefits.
•	Darkvision out to 60’.
•	Gain Spell Resistance (Ex): This grants spell resistance of 30.
•	Gain Damage Reduction (Su): Grants damage reduction 10/law, which allows them to ignore the first 10 points of damage from any attack made by a non-lawful weapon or by any natural attack made by a creature that doesn’t have similar damage reduction.
•	Gain Smite Law (Su): Three times per day, the sorcerer may make a normal melee attack to deal extra damage equal to their HD (maximum of +20) against a lawful foe.
Unlike other outsiders, the sorcerer can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. Also unlike other outsiders, native outsiders still need to eat and sleep.


Thoughts??


_Edit:_ PS: I like the idea so much I am going to add it to the official list of samples.


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## Khaalis (Apr 22, 2004)

*Familiars – 3rd of 3*



			
				Imret said:
			
		

> I recognize I may be in the minority on this, but I've always been a little stuck on the wizard getting a familiar. The wizard learns his arcane talents in relative isolation, learning to weave the patterns of the world into a form useful to him, where the sorcerer does the same by force of personality. It just seems a little more logical, to me, that the caster whose personal magnetism powers his magic gains the aid of a small animal, drawn to him by the vagaries of magic and changing as his power grows.
> If one uses the "familiars must be bound by a specific ritual" formula, then it should be a wizard-only trait. If the animal's connection to the caster is less clearly defined, my own mind leans towards sorcerer-only.
> But I suppose it is a sacred cow, so to speak, and it's hard to find something to give to wizards in place of it. The item familiar concept is neat, but...animals can run away. This can be incredibly important, if one's DM is malicious.
> But yeah. Anyway. Great work!




1st – thanks for the compliments. Always nice to know the project isn’t totally in vain.

/OnRant
On familiars…  My issues are varied. For one I am not thrilled with the whole sacred-cow aspect of it. I personally think it is silly that ALL arcane casters have to have familiars. As I stated earlier this is a literary hold-over that never went away.  From my stand, Familiars should be an option.  Not all practitioners of the “Art” have familiars. This is a personal choice.  Yet in game mechanics – its only a choice if the player wishes to give up one of his more potent class abilities.  From a purely game mechanics point of view, in my opinion, Wizards should have gotten “Bonus Feat” at 1st level in place of Familiar and “Summon Familiar” should have been an optional feat.  Its companion should also have been “Item Familiar”.  When was the last time you saw the great wizards of literature – Gandolf, Saruman, Raistlin, Dalamar, Elminster, Merlin, etc. – with a familiar?  You don’t. What do they almost all have in common though?? The Wizard’s Staff! Where is that reflected in D&D? In crappy, incredibly expensive magic items. Bleh!
/offRant

Now as for Sorcerers with familiars, I don’t like them being able to use the “Summon” ritual aspect. Sorcerers specifically don’t have the knowledge to do such a thing at 1st level.  What makes more sense to me is an Item Familiar – something that could absorb their magical presence and over time take on a Personality of its own that is a reflection of the sorcerer’s, or even as you say having something alive yet that is gained through the use of their personality – would be closer in mechanics to the Animal Companion (as per druid). 

Thoughts?


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## Hardhead (Apr 22, 2004)

EDIT:  This is now a pointless post.


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## Mark Causey (Apr 22, 2004)

Khaalis said:
			
		

> Wasn’t trying to slam it or anything. Hope you understood that. I was just having trouble getting a full picture of the lineage from the way it was described mixed with its abilities.




That's what the discussion is about ... taking raw ideas and shaping them  I'd rather have you pick it apart than to say, "It's your version, have fun. Next question?"





			
				mighty Khaalis said:
			
		

> If I might suggest some editorial edits?…




You cleaned up my chaotic ramblings well, as well as truly defined the gaze vision, making it more than just a cut and paste from the Umber Hulk.



			
				powerful Khaalis said:
			
		

> I might suggest replacing lesser confusion and confusion with: _Protection from Law_ at 1st and _Chaos Hammer_ for 4th. Another good substitution might be _Word of Chaos_ for 7th.




I had been thinking about putting those in, but thought that they would need the confusion spells to 'explain' their vision; but why do sorcerers, much less Chaos Sorcerers, need to 'explain' where they learned something? I would almost imagine an in-game prohibition of taking the top 5 spells of the player's choice for any given spell learning event and making them choose randomly 




			
				tweaking Khaalis said:
			
		

> Again, just some tweaks? (I would suggest dropping the downgrade on the vision, as it seems a bit off that they would wish to reduce the gaze attack as it is not a permanent effect, but something that is activated only when they wish to use it.)




Mainly, this was for the Insanity Vision, as that is pretty close to permanent.



			
				finishing touches Khaalis said:
			
		

> •	Gain Smite Law (Su): Three times per day, the sorcerer may make a normal melee attack to deal extra damage equal to their HD (maximum of +20) against a lawful foe.




Perfect addition. Now I get to make that sorcerer, and figure out how to make him summon pseudonatural creatures WITHOUT branching out to a prestige class, because I want to stick all the way to 20 ... ;(

[







			
				gracious Khaalis said:
			
		

> _Edit:_ PS: I like the idea so much I am going to add it to the official list of samples.




Well, thanks for helping me getting it to that point, I'm glad I could suggest .. hopefully it will also give people ideas for other 'alignment' sorcerers.

AtR


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## Coredump (Apr 23, 2004)

Just letting you all know that there are still folks eagerly reading... even if we (I) don't have much to add.

Thanks to all of you.

.


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## Khaalis (Apr 23, 2004)

Ok - to attempt to appease a wider range of taste, what would be the opinion on changing the 2nd level Arcane Sense into a Mutable Sorcerer ability?  

This would allow more flexibility, but is a less "Core" feel - though the Ranger and the Monk now both use Mutable styles.


*Sorcerer Ability:* A sorcerer is not a defined term beyond that they share manipulation of arcane magic in common. Sorcerers can develop vastly different abilities from one another, usually as a reflection of their lineage, but other times it is a reflection of the sorcerer's upbringing and environmental influence. Sorcerers can fill many roles such as hedge wizards, fortune hunters, opportunists, charlatans, alchemists, demonologists, planar travelers, street wizards, investigators, adventurers, oracles and many other concepts as influenced by their surroundings. The varied abilities required by each different specialty are a reflection of the sorcerer’s specific culture and heritage.  At 2nd level the sorcerer gains one option from the list below that reflects the type of sorcerer they are developing into.

*Animal Companion (Ex):* A sorcerer may use their presence and natural charm to gain an animal companion. This is a free-willed animal and acts in all respects as a druid's animal companion (see the _Druid_ in the Player's Handbook.)

*Arcane Sense (Sp):* The sorcerer is so in tune with magic that they can feel magic flow through them as well as sense its presence and flow in all things around them as well. As a result of this deep attunement, at 2nd level, the sorcerer’s senses allow them to see as if using detect magic (as the spell) a number of times per day equal to their Charisma modifier. This spell-like ability is activated as a standard action that draws an attack of opportunity and requires full concentration for as many rounds as the sorcerer wishes to attain information (as the spell description).

*Bonus Feat:* The sorcerer may choose a bonus feat from the following list, though any necessary prerequisites must be bet. These bonus feats should focus on the sorcerer’s spell-like abilities, social skills, heredity, and any other arcane pursuit. Heritage can count for feat prerequisites per DM approval.
*EXAMPLE WotC FEATS*
_Player's Handbook:_ Alertness, Augment Summoning, Combat Casting, Endurance, Great Fortitude, Greater Spell Focus, Greater Spell Penetration, Improved Counterspell, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Magical Affinity, Negotiator, Persuasive, Self-Sufficient, Skill Focus, Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, Toughness
_Book of Exalted Deeds:_ Ancestral Relic, Animal Friend, Celestial Familiar, Exalted Companion, Exalted Wild Shape, Gift of Faith, Nimbus of Light, Nymph’s Kiss, Sacred Vow (& associated vows), Sanctify Martial Strike, Servant of the Heavens, Spell Focus (Good)
_Complete Warrior:_ Arcane Strike, Improved Familiar
_Draconomicon:_ Dragon Familiar, Dragoncrafter, Dragonfriend, Dragonthrall, Frightful Presence, Sense Weakness
_Tome & Blood:_ Arcane Defense, Arcane Preparation, Augment Summoning, Extra Slot, Extra Spell, Greater Spell Focus, Greater Spell Penetration, Spell Specialization

*Item Familiar:* The sorcerer may choose to imbue an item with a part of thei magical essence and eventually have it mirror their personality, thus gaining the ability to create an item familiar, using the “Item Familiar" option from the Unearthed Arcana (p.170). Note that a sorcerer cannot have both a familiar and an item familiar unless they possess the Extra Familiar feat.

*Spontaneous Metamagic (Ex):* Choose one metamagic feat of choice from either: Enlarge Spell, Extend Spell, Heighten Spell, Silent Spell, or Still Spell (only feats with up to a 1 spell level adjustment may be chosen for this ability). This metamagic feat is a virtual feat that may be used “on-the fly” to effect any lineage spell (and only lineage spells) the sorcerer knows, a number of times per day equal to the sorcerer’s Charisma modifier. This feat is used without prior preparation, increased spell level or extended casting time. The maximum level of spell to which a caster can apply a metamagic feat is equal to the maximum spell level they are capable of casting, minus the spell level adjustment of the metamagic feat. If the result of this calculation is less than 0, then that metamagic feat cannot be used on any of the sorcerer's spells. A caster can apply more than one metamagic feat to a spell, or even the same metamagic effect more than once (if allowed by the feat's description). However, to determine the maximum level of spell that can be so affected, add together the spell level adjustments given for the various feats. The Heighten Spells feat may be used to increase a spell's effective level (for purpose of save DC's and so on) up to the maximum spell level you are capable of casting. The spell is treated as a spell of that level for purposes of save DC and similar effects, but does not require a higher-level spell slot.

Thoughts & Discussion?


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## Zoatebix (Apr 23, 2004)

More flexibility is always good, but the bonus feat option seems like the short end of the stick.  One could say that's the price of flexibility, but I think that they should get something a little more dynamic than a single feat.

If they choose to give up the second-level power, perhaps they get a bonus feat at levels 2, 10, and 18 instead?
-g


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## Khaalis (Apr 23, 2004)

Actually some of those feats are quite potent, especially if stacked well with their powers. For example a sorcerer specialized in summoning spells would gain a great deal of benefit from the bonus Augment Summoning feat. BoED feats are all quite powerful.  I am not sure about the balance of giving multiple feats (even at staggered levels) over a single ability at 2nd level though.  Especially when it throws in the mechanic that only 1 such option would gain continuing benefits at higher levels. Others thoughts on this?


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## Coredump (Apr 23, 2004)

(Good ol'Khaalis, waits till I say I have nothing to add... then gives me something to comment on.. 

I like the mutable aspect, but I think less flexibility is better in this case.  Adding too much flexibility removes flavor. Look at the fighter... just a pile of feats.  I say keep the animal companion, arcane sense, item familiar, and get rid of the 'bonus feat' and metamagic. They get a feat every 3 levels, use those for metamagic.  

Augment summoning (for example) seems better suited as a lineage advantage.  I would look for more choices that would be selected due to flavor, not due to power. Maybe some sort of heightened senses or such.

.


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## Mark Causey (Apr 23, 2004)

Maybe define the bonus they get based upon their Lineage? Or is that what you're trying to get away from, no selections other than the Lineage and spells?

Or maybe you could have variations on the Arcane Sight alone ...

Arcane Sight - as defined.
Arcane Touch - as Arcane Touch, but with _Mage Hand_,
Arcane Voice - as Arcane Touch, but with _Ghost Sound_,
Arcane Gaze - as Arcane Touch, but with _Daze_ ...

Just some ideas off of the top of my head ....

AtR


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## Zoatebix (Apr 23, 2004)

On second thought - I think I agree with Coredump on this one.

Plus I forgot that one had to invest experience to make an item familiar more powerful - I thought more of the 2nd level power choices scaled with level.
-g


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## Khaalis (Apr 26, 2004)

Ok  - so we have some support for the idea of making the 2nd level power mutable. The difficulty is in what choices, and how many of such choices to give.  I can agree with the Feats, as I too tend to feel they are a bit too generic, though they can add flavor if used correctly.  For this tweak will drop the bonus feats.  Also the more I think about it, I agree on the metamagic as well. Leave this ability to its appropriate Lineages otherwise it takes some of the uniqueness away from those lineages.

However, that doesn’t leave us with many options, only: Animal Companion, Arcane Sense, and Item Familiar.  Is this enough?  Should we come up with more options such as Arcane Channeling, Arcane Strike, etc.?


*Sorcerer Ability:* A sorcerer is not a defined term beyond that they share manipulation of arcane magic in common. Sorcerers can develop vastly different abilities from one another, usually as a reflection of their lineage, but other times it is a reflection of the sorcerer's upbringing and environmental influence. Sorcerers can fill many roles such as hedge wizards, fortune hunters, opportunists, charlatans, alchemists, demonologists, planar travelers, street wizards, investigators, adventurers, oracles and many other concepts as influenced by their surroundings. The varied abilities required by each different specialty are a reflection of the sorcerer’s specific culture and heritage.  At 2nd level the sorcerer gains one option from the list below that reflects the type of sorcerer they are developing into.

*Animal Companion (Ex):* A sorcerer may use their presence and natural charm to gain an animal companion. This is a free-willed animal and acts in all respects as a druid's animal companion (see the _Druid_ in the Player's Handbook.)

*Arcane Sense (Sp):* The sorcerer is so in tune with magic that they can feel magic flow through them as well as sense its presence and flow in all things around them as well. As a result of this deep attunement, at 2nd level, the sorcerer’s senses allow them to see as if using detect magic (as the spell) a number of times per day equal to their Charisma modifier. This spell-like ability is activated as a standard action that draws an attack of opportunity and requires full concentration for as many rounds as the sorcerer wishes to attain information (as the spell description).

*Item Familiar:* The sorcerer may choose to imbue an item with a part of thei magical essence and eventually have it mirror their personality, thus gaining the ability to create an item familiar, using the “Item Familiar" option from the Unearthed Arcana (p.170). Note that a sorcerer cannot have both a familiar and an item familiar unless they possess the Extra Familiar feat.

Thoughts & Discussion?


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## Khaalis (Apr 27, 2004)

*Summoned Companion*

New ability option, a blend of the Animal Companion with the more magical variation of the paladin’s Special Mount.

*Summoned Companion (Sp):* Upon reaching 2nd level, a sorcerer may choose to gain the service of an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal extra-planar animal to accompany and serve them on their adventures. This animal is usually a heavy warhorse (for a Medium sorcerer) or a warpony (for a Small sorcerer), a badger, camel, dire rat, dog (or riding dog), eagle, hawk, owl, snake (Medium viper) or wolf (or any other animal of no more than 2HD).

Once per day, as a full-round action, a sorcerer may magically call their companion from the extra-planar realm in which it resides. The companion immediately appears adjacent to the sorcerer and remains for 2 hours per sorcerer level; it may be dismissed at any time as a free action. The companion is the same creature each time it is summoned, though the sorcerer may release a particular companion from service.

Each time the companion is summoned, it appears in full health, regardless of any damage it may have taken previously. The companion also appears wearing or carrying any gear it had when it was last dismissed. Summoning a companion is a conjuration (summoning) effect.

Should the sorcerer’s companion die, it immediately disappears, leaving behind any equipment it was carrying. The sorcerer may not summon another companion for thirty days or until they gain a sorcerer level, whichever comes first, even if the companion is somehow returned from the dead. During this thirty-day period, the sorcerer takes a –1 penalty on attack and weapon damage rolls. If a sorcerer releases their companion from service, they may gain a new one by performing a ceremony requiring 24 uninterrupted hours of meditation. This ceremony is also required to replace a companion that has perished.

At 2nd-level the sorcerer’s companion is completely typical for its kind except as noted below. As the sorcerer advances in level, the companion’s power increases as shown on the table.  A sorcerer of 4th level or higher may select from an alternative list of companions (see below). Should they select a companion from one of these alternative lists, the creature gains abilities as if the character’s sorcerer level were lower than it actually is. Subtract the value indicated in the appropriate list header from the character’s sorcerer level and compare the result with the sorcerer level entry on the table to determine the companion’s powers. (If this adjustment would reduce the sorcerer’s effective level to 0 or lower, thet can’t have that creature as a companion.) 

THE SORCERER’S SUMMONED COMPANION
The sorcerer’s companion is superior to a normal creature of its kind and has special powers, as described below. A sorcerer’s companion is treated as a magical beast for the purpose of all effects that depend on its type (though it retains HD, base attack bonus, saves, skill points, and feats by its natural type).

*Sorcerer…….Bonus…..Natural…...Str/Dex………………Bonus
Level………...HD……....Armor……....ADJ…..…..INT…..Tricks……….Special*
2-5……….........+0……….....+2…………......+1……….......4…….....1………......Empathic Link, Share Spell
6-8………….......+2……….....+4………….....+2……….......5………...2………......Evasion
9-11………….....+4……….....+6…………......+3……..….....6…….....3………......Devotion
12-14………......+6……….....+8………….....+4……..….....7………...4………......Multiattack
15-17………......+8………....+10……….......+5……..….....8………...5………......Improved Evasion
18-20……….....+10………...+12……….......+6……..….....9………...6………......Spell Resistance

*Sorcerer’s Companion Basics:* Use the base statistics for a creature of the companion’s kind, but make changes to take into account the attributes and characteristics summarized on the table and described below.

_Bonus HD:_ Extra eight-sided (d8) Hit Dice, each of which gains a Constitution modifier, as normal. Extra Hit Dice improve the companion’s base attack and base save bonuses. A summoned companion’s base attack bonus is equal to that of a cleric of a level equal to the companion’s HD. A companion has good Fortitude and Reflex saves (treat it as a character whose level equals the companion’s HD). The companion gains additional skill points or feats for bonus HD as normal for advancing a monster’s Hit Dice.

_Natural Armor Adj.:_ The number on the table is an improvement to the companion’s existing natural armor bonus.

_Str/Dex Adj.:_ Add this figure to the companion’s Strength and Dexterity scores.

_Int:_ The companion’s Intelligence score.

_Bonus Tricks:_ The value given in this column is the total number of “bonus” tricks that the companion knows in addition to any that the sorcerer might choose, or be able to teach it (see the Handle Animal skill). These bonus tricks don’t require any training time or Handle Animal checks, and they don’t count against the normal limit of tricks known by the companion. The sorcerer selects these bonus tricks, and once selected, they can’t be changed.

_Devotion (Ex):_ A companion gains a +4 morale bonus on Will saves against enchantment spells and effects.

_Empathic Link (Su):_ The sorcerer has an empathic link with their companion out to a distance of up to 1 mile. The sorcerer cannot see through the companion’s eyes, but they can communicate empathically. Note that even intelligent companions see the world differently from humans, so misunderstandings are always possible. Because of this empathic link, the sorcerer has the same connection to an item or place that their companion does, just as with a master and familiar (see Familiars).

_Evasion (Ex):_ If a companion is subjected to an attack that normally allows a Reflex saving throw for half damage, it takes no damage if it makes a successful saving throw.

_Improved Evasion (Ex):_ When subjected to an attack that normally allows a Reflex saving throw for half damage, a companion takes no damage if it makes a successful saving throw and half damage if the saving throw fails.

_Multiattack:_ A companion gains Multiattack as a bonus feat if it has three or more natural attacks and does not already have that feat. If it does not have the requisite three or more natural attacks, the companion instead gains a second attack with its primary natural weapon, albeit at a –5 penalty.

_Share Spells:_ At the sorcerer’s option, they may have any spell (but not any spell-like ability) they cast on themselves also affect their companion.  The companion must be within 5 feet at the time of casting to receive the benefit. If the spell or effect has a duration other than instantaneous, it stops affecting the companion if it moves farther than 5 feet away and will not affect them again even if it returns to the sorcerer before the duration expires. Additionally, the sorcerer may cast a spell with a target of “You” on their companion (as a touch range spell) instead of on themselves. A sorcerer and their companion can share spells even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the companion’s type (magical beast).

_Spell Resistance (Ex):_ A companion’s spell resistance equals its master’s sorcerer level + 5. To affect the companion with a spell, a spellcaster must get a result on a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) that equals or exceeds the companion’s spell resistance.

ALTERNATIVE COMPANION EXAMPLES
A sorcerer of sufficiently high level can select their companion from one of the following lists, applying the indicated adjustment to the sorcerer’s level (in parentheses) for purposes of determining the companion’s characteristics and special abilities. Some variations such as Celestial, Fiendish and Elementals may require certain lineages, per DM approval.

*5th Level or Higher (Level –3):* Ape (animal); Bear, black (animal); Bison (animal); Boar (animal); Cheetah (animal); Crocodile (animal)*; Dire badger; Dire bat; Dire weasel; Leopard (animal); Lizard, monitor (animal); Lizard, shocker (animal); Shark, Large* (animal); Snake, constrictor (animal); Snake, Large viper (animal); Stirge; Wolverine (animal) 
Anarchic, Celestial, Feral, Fiendish, Half-Elemental, Shadow-bound, or Warbeast templated version of base list companion

*8th Level or Higher (Level –6):* Bear, brown (animal); Dire wolverine; Crocodile, giant (animal); Deinonychus (dinosaur); Dire ape; Dire boar; Dire wolf; Elasmosaurus* (dinosaur); Lion (animal); Pseudodragon (dragon); Rhinoceros (animal); Snake, Huge viper (animal); Tiger (animal)
Anarchic, Celestial, Feral, Fiendish, Half-Elemental, Shadow-bound, or Warbeast templated version of 5th Level (Level-3) list companion

*11th Level or Higher (Level –9):* Bear, polar (animal); Dire lion; Megaraptor (dinosaur); Shark, Huge* (animal); Snake, giant constrictor (animal); Whale, orca* (animal)
Anarchic, Celestial, Feral, Fiendish, Half-Elemental, Shadow-bound, or 
Warbeast templated version of 8th Level (Level-6) list companion

*14th Level or Higher (Level –12):* Dire bear; Elephant (animal); Octopus, giant* (animal)
Anarchic, Celestial, Feral, Fiendish, Half-Elemental, Shadow-bound, or Warbeast templated version of 11th Level (Level-9) list companion

*17th Level or Higher (Level –15):* Dire shark*; Dire tiger; Squid, giant* (animal); Triceratops (dinosaur); Tyrannosaurus (dinosaur)
Anarchic, Celestial, Feral, Fiendish, Half-Elemental, Shadow-bound, or Warbeast templated version of 14th Level (Level-12) list companion

(*) Available only in an aquatic environment.


Thoughts/Comments?


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## Evilhalfling (Apr 27, 2004)

hmm 
first old business -
Why the decision to use druid animal companion instead of ranger? 
is aura sight really that powerful? 
- bother - the obvious reason is that Ranger companions suck.
I really hate peekaboo pals - and immedatily changed the paladin's back to 3.0

Comments after Dming a weakened version of the Child of Nature Lineage 
- most of his powers are going to waste.  He has sworn off the summoning spells, never used animal empathy and is only planning on leaning barkskin from the new lists. Is this his problem or mine? 
I moved woodland stride and trackless step to 8th, but he would benifit from these immensily, I have lots of outdoor fights and he uses Barbie speed to full advantage. adjusting this would be the easiest fix.

- The concept is a barbarian ancestor/spirit worshiper so logically he should get speak w/dead.  
Would it be better just to add this to spell lists avaliable to learn, Lineage list, require research or just disallow?


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## Khaalis (Apr 28, 2004)

Thanks for the comments and input.  To address your comments…



			
				Evilhalfling said:
			
		

> hmm
> first old business -
> Why the decision to use druid animal companion instead of ranger?
> is aura sight really that powerful?
> ...




I chose to use the druid companion version as a base because they are better than the Ranger, as Rangers only use ½ their level to determine the power of their companion. The balance factor to prevent the sorcerer’s companion from overshadowing the druid’s is the fact that the druid can have more than one companion (many more due to Animal Friendship) and the druid’s never go away, unlike a sorcerer’s.  

As for Pokemount – I agree that it is not fitting for the Paladin, but for a sorcerer … the ability to “summon” a companion makes much more sense and is a mechanic that could find a home with the sorcerer class – unlike the paladin whom isn’t supposed to be a highly magical class.

Arcane Sense is actually weaker than I had originally wanted, and I am still not sure that it is all that great a boon – especially compared to the benefit that could be gained from something like a familiar which if used correctly are actually quite a powerful addition to a character. At the very least IMHO Arcane Sense should have been an at-will ability, but too many people said that it was too powerful to allow _Detect Magic_ at will.



> Comments after Dming a weakened version of the Child of Nature Lineage
> - most of his powers are going to waste.  He has sworn off the summoning spells, never used animal empathy and is only planning on leaning barkskin from the new lists. Is this his problem or mine?
> I moved woodland stride and trackless step to 8th, but he would benifit from these immensily, I have lots of outdoor fights and he uses Barbie speed to full advantage. adjusting this would be the easiest fix.
> 
> ...




Ok. I am a little confused and could use some clarification. Basically you are saying you made an alternate version of the Child of Nature? 
•	If you swore off the Summoning spells – what is the Lineage Spell list?  Why sworn off the summoning spells?
•	Not sure where animal empathy comes in (that’s 3.0) and its not part of the lineage.
•	Granted that the Druid spell list isn’t the best, but wanting to learn only Barkskin goes to prove that offering the entire list is not unbalanced as some thought it would be. It does offer many good spells – depending on the kind of character you are trying to build.
•	If you moved Stride and Step to 8th – what did you give at 1st?
•	What did you do with the Wild Shape? Remove it from 8th but leave at higher levels?

If you just want to manipulate the Nature Sorcerer, I would put the level abilities back where they were, and simply change the spell list. (Maybe use the one below that is more reflective of a shaman.)

Now if you are asking for a barbarian culture Spirit Shaman lineage, I think it would be quite different from the Child of Nature lineage.  This is what I would see working well (1st draft).


*ANCESTOR SPIRIT SHAMAN LINEAGE:* The ancestor spirit shaman sorcerer is the descendant of a long line of shamans and holds a strong tie to those ancestors. This is similar to a Magical Family lineage but from a more savage culture.  This lineage is powerful and directly links the sorcerer to the forces of their own ancestry. 

*Benefit:* Ancestor spirit shaman sorcerers gain Listen and Survival as class skills. Their link to their ancestor spirits allow them to speak with those spirits to gleam information about the future. This acts as an _augury_ (as the spell), a spell-like ability, usable a number of times per day equal to 3+ the sorcerer’s Charisma modifier. However, unlike other spell-like abilities, this _augury_ still requires the use of a fortune telling medium such as bones, runes, arcane bonfire, blood etc. (but only worth 5gp) but does not require the use of incense.  Ancestor shaman sorcerers may learn any spell of the Divination designator regardless of the spell list from which it comes as well as any spell that directly harms undead or incorporeal creatures.

*Special Limitation:* Ancestor shaman sorcerers have an innate connection to their ancestors and their culture and thus are influenced by the cultures more wild tendencies and thus they may not be of a lawful alignment and are illiterate like others of their culture, though they may spend 2 skill points at any time to become literate. They may also never learn any spell, spell-like ability or supernatural ability with the Lawful designator nor that creates or controls undead. The ancestor shaman sorcerer cannot use spell completion or spell trigger items that activate banned spells, as they just do not work for the sorcerer. Due to their strong affinity to magic of the spirit world, they are left with a natural weakness toward magic of necromantic origin, receiving a –2 penalty to all saving throws against any spell, spell-like ability, or supernatural ability of the necromancy school or used by creatures of the undead type. An ancestor shaman sorcerer who becomes of any lawful alignment or learns a prohibited spell, spell-like ability or supernatural ability may no longer gain levels as a sorcerer as well as loses all sorcerer lineage abilities (including lineage bonus known spells and spell-like abilities, but not including weapon proficiencies and normal spells known), until they atone (see the atonement spell description). Also, like a member of any other class, an ancestor shaman sorcerer may be a multiclass character, but they face a special restriction. An ancestor shaman sorcerer who gains a new class or template that involves racial or bloodline or heredity related abilities that are not specifically spirit oriented (for example Half-Dragon), may never again raise their sorcerer level and loses all sorcerer lineage abilities (including their bonus spells known and lineage based spell-like abilities, but not including weapon proficiencies and standard spells known).

*Lineage Spells:* The sorcerer has a specific affinity with their ancestor spirits and the magic they wield that manifests in a Lineage Spell List. These lineage spells may never be changed through spell swapping or spell evolution, but only through Innate Ability evolution. These lineage spells are gained as bonus known spells as soon as the sorcerer is able to cast spells of that spell level. The sorcerer gains the Ancestor Spirit Shaman Lineage spell list.
*Ancestor Spirit Shaman Lineage Spell List:* _0–know direction; 1st-sanctuary; 2nd- shield other; 3rd- speak with dead; 4th- divine power; 5th- commune; 6th- geas/quest; 7th- ethereal jaunt; 8th- word of recall; 9th- shades_

*Lineage Abilities:* The ancestor shaman sorcerer’s connection with their ancestor spirits grows over time and they become more attune to the force of the spirit world.  
……….At 8th level the abcestor shaman sorcerer gains the ability to sense spirits, incorporeal and invisible creatures within 60’ which also reduces miss chances on incorporeal and invisible creatures by 25%. They may also imbue themselves or others with the power of their ancestor spirits, enhancing any one ability score (per use of the ability) as if casting a 2nd level ability score enhancement spell such as _bull’s strength_. The sorcerer need not know the specific spell to duplicate its effects. The enhancement lasts 1 hour/sorcerer level. This ability may be used a number of times per day equal to their Charisma modifier.
……….At 14th level the ancestor shaman sorcerer gains the ability to summon an ancestral spirit from the astral plane that takes the form of a shadow, an undead shade. Unlike a normal shadow, this shadow spirit’s alignment matches that of the sorcerer, and the creature cannot create spawn. The summoned shadow spirit cannot be turned, rebuked, or commanded by any third party. This shadow spirit serves as a companion to the sorcerer and can communicate intelligibly with the sorcerer. Every third level gained by the sorcerer adds +2 HD (and the requisite base attack and base save bonus increases) to their shadow spirit companion. If a shadow spirit companion is destroyed, or the sorcerer chooses to dismiss it, the sorcerer must attempt a DC 15 Fortitude save. If the saving throw fails, the sorcerer loses 200 experience points per sorcerer level. A successful saving throw reduces the loss by half, to 100 XP per sorcerer class level. The sorcerer’s XP total can never go below 0 as the result of a shadow spirit’s dismissal or destruction. A destroyed or dismissed shadow spirit companion cannot be replaced for 30 days.
……….At 20th level, an ancestor shaman sorcerer becomes so attune to their lineage that they gain the outsider type as well as the augmented and native subtypes. The sorcerer undergoes no outward physical transformation however. They are forevermore treated as an outsider rather than as a humanoid (or whatever the sorcerer’s creature type was) for the purpose of spells and magical effects. Additionally, the ancestor shaman sorcerer gains the following benefits.
•	Darkvision out to 60’.
•	An ancestor shaman sorcerer with the leadership feat, may acquire a ghost as a special cohort (with the appropriate level modified by the +5 ECL of the ghost template). This ghost is an ancestor spirit that has chosen to travel with the shaman and aid them in their endeavors. Unlike a normal ghost, this ghost’s alignment matches that of the sorcerer. The ancestor spirit cannot be turned, rebuked, or commanded by any third party. This ghost serves as a companion to the sorcerer and can communicate intelligibly with the sorcerer. If a ghost ancestral spirit is destroyed, the sorcerer must attempt a DC 20 Fortitude save. If the saving throw fails, the sorcerer loses 400 experience points per sorcerer level. A successful saving throw reduces the loss by half, to 200 XP per sorcerer class level. The sorcerer’s XP total can never go below 0 as the result of a ghost spirit’s destruction. A destroyed ghost spirit cannot be replaced for 1 year.
•	Gain *Damage Reduction (Su):* Grants damage reduction 5/-, which allows them to ignore the first 5 points of damage from any attack made by a weapon or by any natural attack made by a creature that doesn’t have similar damage reduction. 
•	Gain *Spell Resistance (Ex):* This grants spell resistance of 30.
Unlike other outsiders, the sorcerer can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. Also unlike other outsiders, native outsiders still need to eat and sleep.

Thoughts?


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## Evilhalfling (Apr 28, 2004)

I modified the orginal concept, I was the one objecting to the CoN spell lists. This is what I was using -
Sprit Lineage Spell List : 0–know direction; 1st-Summon Nature’s Allay I; 2nd-Speak w/ animal; 3rd Summon Nature’s Ally III; 4th-BestowCurse; 5th- Summon Nature’s Ally V; 6th-Geas ; 7th- Summon Nature’s AllyVII; 8th-Stone Tell, 9th – Elemental Swarm

Lineage Abilities: The sorcerer’s affinity with their spirit lineage grows over time
……At 2nd level Spirit sorcerers gain animal empathy as a druid or ranger 
…...At 5th level the sorcerer can cast their lineage spell as a spell-like ability a number of times equal to their CHR bonus per day.  They loose the spell from known spells.
…..At 8th level the sorcerer gains woodland stride, and trackless step
…..At 11th level the sorcerers spell like ability is replaces by the 2nd lvl lineage spell
…..At 14th level the sorcerer can use wild shape three per day as a druid  ½ their level. .

Spirit sorcerers gain survival, and heal as class skills. They cast lineage abilities at +1 caster level. They can learn any spell from the animal or plant clerical domains as a known spell. Lineage spells are gained as bonus known spells as soon as the sorcerer is able to cast spells of that spell level.
But I like your new  Ideas  

I don't want to change the class to much from under the PC - but he is a powergamer so I am sure that any changes that result in more power will be accepted.

Lets see I like the augury. 
as "the price of seeking knowledge" is the theme of this campaign 
so I may feel evil enough to require a personal sacrifice in  hit pts = caster level in blood loss perhaps? to fuel this power. (I realize this is only appropriate for this campagin)  This can be added via quest as well - 

See invisble and Buffing? not sure if both are appropriate and certainly tone the buff down to the houserule duration of existing spells i.e. 10min per level.  

Adding all divinations to spell list is a great idea - it fixes my speak w/dead problem, improves the paltry lists I gave him (not wanting healing as druid) 

I like new Limitations they fit better then CoN *Yoink* 
The Wildshape at 14th makes more sense to me then the anchestor spirit - as he is closely linked to both Bear and Stag spirits - one by birth the other by vison quest. 
I can move trackless step back to 2nd, but woodland stride is a huge change 
I think i will keep it at 8th and use either buff or See Inv. 
Did I mention this thread convinced me to quit lurking


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## Khaalis (Apr 29, 2004)

Evilhalfling said:
			
		

> I modified the orginal concept, I was the one objecting to the CoN spell lists.



To each there own – and exactly why I wanted a templated class structure so it would be easy to do such modifications to personal taste and campaign style. 



> This is what I was using -
> Sprit Lineage Spell List : 0–know direction; 1st-Summon Nature’s Allay I; 2nd-Speak w/ animal; 3rd Summon Nature’s Ally III; 4th-BestowCurse; 5th- Summon Nature’s Ally V; 6th-Geas ; 7th- Summon Nature’s AllyVII; 8th-Stone Tell, 9th – Elemental Swarm




This is … odd?  It seems, when mixed with the Plant/Animal Domain access to be more of a Totem Spirit concept rather than an Ancestor Spirit concept?  Why Bestow Curse? 
Also, if they have sworn off the Summon Ally spells, I would suggest the following to balance it out and make it more fair and related to the concept but keep some of the original flair you had to the list. This is assuming you are going for a more “Nature Totem” Spirit feel.

*Sprit Lineage Spell List:* _0–know direction; 1st-speak with animals; 2nd-barkskin; 3rd-speak with dead; 4th-bestow curse; 5th-(See Below); 6th-geas; 7th-(See Below); 8th-stone tell; 9th–elemental swarm_

*5th:* Lots of options here depending on the style of game.
I am not sure what to place here since you mention knowledge spells are pricey, but yet you give _Stone Tell_, _Speak with Dead_ etc. so if you feel beneficent and want to go with the divination line add _Commune with Nature_. Otherwise I would choose _Baleful Polymorph_ for a combat oriented spell, _Stoneskin_ for a defensive spell or _Tree Stride_ as a utility spell.

*7th:* The same deal as with 5th level. If you want to follow the divination path then grant _Greater Scrying_ or _True Seeing_. If not , then either _Fire Storm_ or _Changestaff_ as a combat spell, _Wind Walk_ as a utility spell.

Just some thoughts…



> ……At 2nd level Spirit sorcerers gain animal empathy as a druid or ranger



I assume you are using 3.0 – but I would still drop the Animal Empathy thing if it is not being utilized in the campaign.  You could replace this with the Augury ability (see my comments on that below).



> Lets see I like the augury.  as "the price of seeking knowledge" is the theme of this campaign
> so I may feel evil enough to require a personal sacrifice in  hit pts = caster level in blood loss perhaps? to fuel this power. (I realize this is only appropriate for this campagin)  This can be added via quest as well.



You could do this as a quick change of fluff and mech for the ability. Remove reference to the bonfire, bones, etc. and make it a blood sacrifice spell. Requires the expenditure of HP (I would say roughly 1d4 hp?) per use instead of the gold cost.



> See invisble and Buffing? not sure if both are appropriate and certainly tone the buff down to the houserule duration of existing spells i.e. 10min per level.



Is this a general comment or in regards to your Spirit version?  The Sense Invisibility comes as apart of the Sense Incorporeal – since incorporeal creatures are invisible. It also isn’t true “See Invisible” as it does not negate the invisibility miss chance, it only decreases the penalty by 25% to 75% from 100%.

As for the Buff duration – I am not sure.  I personally am in the camp of “It wasn’t broken”.  The spells are really not of any use to cast if they are short duration, and no sorcerer in his right mind would ever learn them and waste those precious slots – even at 10min/level.  As for appropriate – I think that the buff spells are very fitting to the kind of shaman I described, but only moderately for the type you describe. I will have to think on the duration.



> Adding all divinations to spell list is a great idea - it fixes my speak w/dead problem, improves the paltry lists I gave him (not wanting healing as druid).



This was my initial difficulty with the list. The healing cross-over is the difficult part. Most of the Decent druid spells fall outside the Animal/Plant spheres.  However they come from too many descriptors and schools to list them. You “Could” get a druid feel without healing by granting access to all Animal, Plant, Divination and Elemental descriptor spells. You still lose a few good ones like Changestaff, Control Weather, etc. but its as close as you can get without granting the whole list (or saying the Druid list “except” healing spells).



> I like new Limitations they fit better then CoN *Yoink*



Yes this is a key area that is very different from a Shaman concept to a Druid concept.



> The Wildshape at 14th makes more sense to me then the anchestor spirit - as he is closely linked to both Bear and Stag spirits - one by birth the other by vison quest. I can move trackless step back to 2nd, but woodland stride is a huge change
> I think i will keep it at 8th and use either buff or See Inv.



That works as well. I was under the impression from the original post it was more an ancestor spirit, thus the one I wrote up. However the totem spirit is different and I agree that the wild shape works better.



> Did I mention this thread convinced me to quit lurking



Welcome to the boards!  

Ok so overall we have something similar to this for your lineage.


*TOTEM SPIRIT SHAMAN LINEAGE:* The totem spirit shaman sorcerer is one with a deep connection to nature and to the animal and nature totem spirits. This lineage links them to the powers of the nature spirits, imbuing them with powers more linked to nature than most other sorcerer. 

*Benefit:* Totem spirit shaman sorcerers gain Heal and Survival as class skills. Their link to their ancestor spirits allow them to speak with those spirits to gleam information about the future. This acts as an _augury_ (as the spell), a spell-like ability, usable a number of times per day equal to 3+ the sorcerer’s Charisma modifier. However, unlike other spell-like abilities, this _augury_ still requires the use of a fortune telling medium such as bones, runes, arcane bonfire, blood etc. (but only worth 5gp) but does not require the use of incense.  Totem sorcerers, like nature and animal spirits, do not leave trails and cannot be tracked in any terrain, unless they choose to leave a trail. Totem sorcerers may learn any spell of the Divination, Animal or Plant designator regardless of the spell list from which it comes.

*Special Limitation:* Totem sorcerers have an innate connection to their ancestors and their culture and thus are influenced by the cultures more wild tendencies and thus they may not be of a lawful alignment and are illiterate like others of their culture, though they may spend 2 skill points at any time to become literate. They may also never learn any spell, spell-like ability or supernatural ability with the Lawful designator nor that creates or controls undead. The totem sorcerer cannot use spell completion or spell trigger items that activate banned spells, as they just do not work for the sorcerer. Due to their strong affinity to magic of the spirit world, they are left with a natural weakness toward magic of necromantic origin, receiving a –2 penalty to all saving throws against any spell, spell-like ability, or supernatural ability of the necromancy school or used by creatures of the undead type. A totem sorcerer who becomes of any lawful alignment or learns a prohibited spell, spell-like ability or supernatural ability may no longer gain levels as a sorcerer as well as loses all sorcerer lineage abilities (including lineage bonus known spells and spell-like abilities, but not including weapon proficiencies and normal spells known), until they atone (see the atonement spell description). Also, like a member of any other class, a totem sorcerer may be a multiclass character, but they face a special restriction. A totem sorcerer who gains a new class or template that involves racial or bloodline or heredity related abilities that are not specifically spirit oriented (for example Half-Dragon), may never again raise their sorcerer level and loses all sorcerer lineage abilities (including their bonus spells known and lineage based spell-like abilities, but not including weapon proficiencies and standard spells known).

*Lineage Spells:* The sorcerer has a specific affinity with their ancestor spirits and the magic they wield that manifests in a Lineage Spell List. These lineage spells may never be changed through spell swapping or spell evolution, but only through Innate Ability evolution. These lineage spells are gained as bonus known spells as soon as the sorcerer is able to cast spells of that spell level. The sorcerer gains the Totem Spirit Shaman Lineage spell list.
*Totem Spirit Shaman Lineage Spell List:* _0–know direction; 1st-speak with animals; 2nd-barkskin; 3rd-speak with dead; 4th-bestow curse; 5th-commune with nature; 6th-geas/quest; 7th-scrying, greater; 8th-stone tell; 9th–elemental swarm_

*Lineage Abilities:* The totem sorcerer’s connection with their ancestor spirits grows over time and they become more attune to the force of the spirit world.  
……….At 8th level the totem sorcerer gains the ability to imbue themselves or others with the power of their totem spirits, enhancing any one ability score (per use of the ability) as if casting the 2nd level ability score enhancement spell _bear’s endurance, bull’s strength, cat’s grace, eagle’s splendor, fox’s cunning or owl’s wisdom_. The sorcerer need not know the specific spell to duplicate its effects. The enhancement lasts 10 minutes per sorcerer level. This ability may be used a number of times per day equal to their Charisma modifier.
………. At 14th level the totem sorcerer gains the ability to _Wild Shape_ into an animal form (and back again) a number of times per day equal to their Charisma modifier. This ability acts exactly as the druid’s Wild Shape ability, except that the sorcerer is considered a druid of half their sorcerer level for determining the shapes they may assume.
……….At 20th level, a totem sorcerer becomes so attune to their lineage that they gain the outsider type as well as the augmented and native subtypes. The sorcerer undergoes no outward physical transformation however. They are forevermore treated as an outsider rather than as a humanoid (or whatever the sorcerer’s creature type was) for the purpose of spells and magical effects. Additionally, the totem sorcerer gains the following benefits.
•	Darkvision out to 60’.
•	Gain *Damage Reduction (Su):* Grants damage reduction 5/-, which allows them to ignore the first 5 points of damage from any attack made by a weapon or by any natural attack made by a creature that doesn’t have similar damage reduction. 
•	Gain *Spell Resistance (Ex):* This grants spell resistance of 30.
Unlike other outsiders, the sorcerer can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. Also unlike other outsiders, native outsiders still need to eat and sleep.

Thoughts?


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## Khaalis (Apr 29, 2004)

*On Arcane Sense*

Since it seems that Arcane sense it not such an attractive ability, as is. What about the following suggestion?  This will give the ability growth with the character in that the effect grows in power with the power level of the character/campaign, but is still restricted to the same number of uses.

*Arcane Sense (Sp):* The sorcerer is so in tune with magic that they can feel magic flow through them as well as sense its presence and flow in all things around them as well. As a result of this deep attunement, at 2nd level, the sorcerer’s senses allow them to see as if using _detect magic_ (as the spell) a number of times per day equal to their Charisma modifier. This spell-like ability is activated as a standard action that draws an attack of opportunity and requires full concentration for as many rounds as the sorcerer wishes to attain information (as the spell description). At 10th level the sorcerer's Arcane Sense spell-like ability improves from acting as a _detect magic_ spell to acting as an _arcane sight_ spell and at 18th level improves from acting as an _arcane sight_spell to acting as a _greater arcane sight_ spell.

Thoughts?  Would this be equivalent to a Summon Companion choice or an Item Familiar? If not - would 3+ChaMod or "At will" uses make it balanced?


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## Khaalis (Apr 29, 2004)

*Update*

Update on the dowload link will happen (hopefully) by Noon EST 4/29. See the 1st post of the thread for details. If this does not happen on schedule I will post when it is complete.


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## Evilhalfling (Apr 29, 2004)

First of all, thanks for the write up.  Now on to spell quibbles 

"This is … odd?  It seems, when mixed with the Plant/Animal Domain access to be more of a Totem Spirit concept rather than an Ancestor Spirit concept?  Why Bestow Curse? "

Yes it is better described as animal totem with ancestor spirits mixed in.
Now that I have divinations on the list to choose from I can remove some of them from the Lineage list.  I think that having to spend valuble known spells fits the price of knowledge theme.  

"Also, if they have sworn off the Summon Ally spells"

The player has, through poor results. but I want to use the lineage for NPC's 
so I think I will leave on the summon III and move off some others. summon III is very strong and it will encourage him to try it again.

"*Sprit Lineage Spell List:* _0–know direction; 1st-speak with animals; 2nd-barkskin; 3rd-speak with dead; 4th-bestow curse; 5th-(See Below); 6th-geas; 7th-(See Below); 8th-stone tell; 9th–elemental swarm_"

1st speak with animals 
This is a much better spell and more likely to be used chr bonus times per day 
that will change for all future sorc.
I may wait until he hits 5th - then change out his lineage spell, it seems a better transition - he is 2barb/3sor but if he is planning on more barbie levels then this would be too slow. 
3rd - keeping summon nature III
4th - I like the flavor of  curse - something any good savage-type caster should do. but do you have a counter suggestion ? 
5th staying further from free divinations Tree Stride to maintain his character (not class)focus on movement. 
7th - changestaff gotta love trent in a pocket - 
8th Wind Walk - I have read this is an adventure breaker but it fits, so I am moving it back (no expectations of pc's reaching this) 

This may weaken the class more than I wanted tree stride is espcially suspect - it isn't that great a spell 
would stoneskin, divine power or righteous might be more appropriate here ? 
or at 4th ? either would help return him from a high level spell caster into meele fighter.  Righteous might may be too divine - changing dmg reduction to 5+/magic and calling them Ancestoral Might or Ancestoral Power would fix that. 

BTW  I ment Wild Empathy(ex) the ability not the skill.  Forcing a sorc to spend skill points would suck.  I think adding more animal encounters would fix this as well.
Comments? 
*Ed. fixing quote problems*


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## Evilhalfling (Apr 29, 2004)

Arcane Sight -
The reason I thought this weak, was because all socr. I have ever used/played with,  took detect magic, so they could use it 6 times per day 
so the orginal ability was equivelent to +1 0th lvl spell known
With the upgrades I like it much better.  
I don't think that going from CHR mod to 3+ CHR mod would make much of a difference. 
 -at will- would insure that a sweep of all NPC's for magic would become as common as a paladin's detect evil sweeps.  As a DM this would irritate because I would have to outfit noncom NPC's with magic


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## Khaalis (Apr 29, 2004)

Evilhalfling said:
			
		

> Yes it is better described as animal totem with ancestor spirits mixed in.
> Now that I have divinations on the list to choose from I can remove some of them from the Lineage list.  I think that having to spend valuble known spells fits the price of knowledge theme.



Whatever works for you!  For your theme of costly knowledge – this makes sense.  



> The player has, through poor results. but I want to use the lineage for NPC's so I think I will leave on the summon III and move off some others. summon III is very strong and it will encourage him to try it again.
> 1st speak with animals
> This is a much better spell and more likely to be used chr bonus times per day
> that will change for all future sorc.
> ...




Leaving Summon is good. I don’t mind the summon spells as they are very useful. They may not be powerful, but useful. Remember that it takes creativity sometimes such as combining NA1 with Speak  with Animals to have a nice little information gatherer.

As for making the changes, if you are DM, I would simply pull the player aside and say that you need to make a few tweaks to the class. Make them now and get it over with, with an explanation of why. Better than to wait until the character is already 8th+ level.

4th – Bestow Curse works. It is a very shaman oriented spell which is why I left it. I was just surprised since it didn’t really fit in with some of the other spell choices (really the only offensive spell in the original list).
The rest are also good choices. Very useful spells.  Especially now that you decided to veer away from the divination spells.



> This may weaken the class more than I wanted tree stride is espcially suspect - it isn't that great a spell would stoneskin, divine power or righteous might be more appropriate here ?
> or at 4th ? either would help return him from a high level spell caster into meele fighter.  Righteous might may be too divine - changing dmg reduction to 5+/magic and calling them Ancestoral Might or Ancestoral Power would fix that.



Tree stride matches the Travel aspect you are moving toward with the class. It is a long distance travel spell. If you want the character to gain a more offensive nature I would go for a combat spell rather than the utility spell. For which spell – I would go with Baleful Polymorph (goes with the animal totem theme) or Stone Skin (nature totem).  As for Righteous Might – it could work, but I wouldn’t get into changing spells myself – that more work then necessary IMHO.



> BTW  I ment Wild Empathy(ex) the ability not the skill.  Forcing a sorc to spend skill points would suck.  I think adding more animal encounters would fix this as well.



Ah ok. Wild Empathy is ok (same thing really, just cleaned up). Not one of my more favored abilities and only really comes into play in a highly animal encounter game or with someone with more animal oriented abilities than this class now has. Personally, it’s a flavor choice. Which ability is more fitting to your vision of the class?

Hope that helps!


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## Khaalis (May 4, 2004)

Still seeking comments on the mutable ability at second level.



*Sorcerer Ability:* A sorcerer is not a defined term beyond that they share manipulation of arcane magic in common. Sorcerers can develop vastly different abilities from one another, usually as a reflection of their lineage, but other times it is a reflection of the sorcerer's upbringing and environmental influence. Sorcerers can fill many roles such as hedge wizards, fortune hunters, opportunists, charlatans, alchemists, demonologists, planar travelers, street wizards, investigators, adventurers, oracles and many other concepts as influenced by their surroundings. The varied abilities required by each different specialty are a reflection of the sorcerer’s specific culture and heritage.  At 2nd level the sorcerer gains one option from the list below that reflects the type of sorcerer they are developing into.

 *Arcane Sense (Sp):* The sorcerer is so in tune with magic that they can feel magic flow through them as well as sense its presence and flow in all things around them as well. As a result of this deep attunement, at 2nd level, the sorcerer’s senses allow them to see as if using _detect magic_ (as the spell) a number of times per day equal to their Charisma modifier. This spell-like ability is activated as a standard action that draws an attack of opportunity and requires full concentration for as many rounds as the sorcerer wishes to attain information (as the spell description). At 10th level the sorcerer's Arcane Sense spell-like ability improves from acting as a _detect magic_ spell to acting as an _arcane sight_ spell and at 18th level improves from acting as an _arcane sight_spell to acting as a _greater arcane sight_ spell.

 *Item Familiar:* The sorcerer may choose to imbue an item with a part of thei magical essence and eventually have it mirror their personality, thus gaining the ability to create an item familiar, using the “Item Familiar" option from the Unearthed Arcana (p.170). Note that a sorcerer cannot have both a familiar and an item familiar unless they possess the Extra Familiar feat.

 *Summoned Companion (Sp):* Upon reaching 2nd level, a sorcerer may choose to gain the service of an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal extra-planar animal to accompany and serve them on their adventures. This animal is usually a heavy warhorse (for a Medium sorcerer) or warpony (for a Small sorcerer), badger, camel, dire rat, dog (or riding dog), eagle, hawk, owl, snake (Medium viper) or wolf (or any other animal of no more than 2HD).
……….Once per day, as a full-round action, a sorcerer may magically call their companion from the extra-planar realm in which it resides. The companion immediately appears adjacent to the sorcerer and remains for 2 hours per sorcerer level; it may be dismissed at any time as a free action. The companion is the same creature each time it is summoned, though the sorcerer may release a particular companion from service.
……….Each time the companion is summoned, it appears in full health, regardless of any damage it may have taken previously. The companion also appears wearing or carrying any gear it had when it was last dismissed. Summoning a companion is a conjuration (summoning) effect.
……….Should the sorcerer’s companion die, it immediately disappears, leaving behind any equipment it was carrying. The sorcerer may not summon another companion for thirty days or until they gain a sorcerer level, whichever comes first, even if the companion is somehow returned from the dead. During this thirty-day period, the sorcerer takes a –1 penalty on attack and weapon damage rolls. If a sorcerer releases their companion from service, they may gain a new one by performing a ceremony requiring 24 uninterrupted hours of meditation. This ceremony is also required to replace a companion that has perished.
……….At 2nd-level the sorcerer’s companion is completely typical for its kind except as noted below. As the sorcerer advances in level, the companion’s power increases as shown on the table.  A sorcerer of 4th level or higher may select from an alternative list of companions (see below). Should they select a companion from one of these alternative lists, the creature gains abilities as if the character’s sorcerer level were lower than it actually is. Subtract the value indicated in the appropriate list header from the character’s sorcerer level and compare the result with the sorcerer level entry on the table to determine the companion’s powers. (If this adjustment would reduce the sorcerer’s effective level to 0 or lower, thet can’t have that creature as a companion.) 

THE SORCERER’S SUMMONED COMPANION
The sorcerer’s companion is superior to a normal creature of its kind and has special powers, as described below. A sorcerer’s companion is treated as a magical beast for the purpose of all effects that depend on its type (though it retains HD, base attack bonus, saves, skill points, and feats by its natural type).

*Sorcerer…….Bonus…..Natural…...Str/Dex………………Bonus
Level………...HD……....Armor……....ADJ…..…..INT…..Tricks……….Special*
2-4……….........+0……….....+2…………......+0……….......5…….....1………......Empathic Link, Share Spell
5-7………….......+2……….....+4………….....+1……….......6………...2………......Improved Evasion
8-10………….....+4……….....+6…………......+2……..….....7…….....3………......Devotion
11-14………......+6……….....+8………….....+3……..….....8………...4………......Multiattack
15-20………......+8………....+10……….......+4……..….....9………...5………......Spell Resistance

*Sorcerer’s Companion Basics:* Use the base statistics for a creature of the companion’s kind, but make changes to take into account the attributes and characteristics summarized on the table and described below.
…..*Bonus HD:* Extra eight-sided (d8) Hit Dice, each of which gains a Constitution modifier, as normal. Extra Hit Dice improve the companion’s base attack and base save bonuses. A summoned companion’s base attack bonus is equal to that of a cleric of a level equal to the companion’s HD. A companion has good Fortitude and Reflex saves (treat it as a character whose level equals the companion’s HD). The companion gains additional skill points or feats for bonus HD as normal for advancing a monster’s Hit Dice.
…..*Natural Armor Adj.: * The number on the table is an improvement to the companion’s existing natural armor bonus.
…..*Str/Dex Adj.: * Add this figure to the companion’s Strength and Dexterity scores.
…..*Int: * The companion’s Intelligence score.
…..*Bonus Tricks: * The value given in this column is the total number of “bonus” tricks that the companion knows in addition to any that the sorcerer might choose, or be able to teach it (see the Handle Animal skill). These bonus tricks don’t require any training time or Handle Animal checks, and they don’t count against the normal limit of tricks known by the companion. The sorcerer selects these bonus tricks, and once selected, they can’t be changed.
…..*Devotion (Ex): * A companion gains a +4 morale bonus on Will saves against enchantment spells and effects.
…..*Empathic Link (Su): * The sorcerer has an empathic link with their companion out to a distance of up to 1 mile. The sorcerer cannot see through the companion’s eyes, but they can communicate empathically. Note that even intelligent companions see the world differently from humans, so misunderstandings are always possible. Because of this empathic link, the sorcerer has the same connection to an item or place that their companion does, just as with a master and familiar (see Familiars).
…..*Improved Evasion (Ex): *When subjected to an attack that normally allows a Reflex saving throw for half damage, a companion takes no damage if it makes a successful saving throw and half damage if the saving throw fails.
…..*Multiattack: * A companion gains Multiattack as a bonus feat if it has three or more natural attacks and does not already have that feat. If it does not have the requisite three or more natural attacks, the companion instead gains a second attack with its primary natural weapon, albeit at a –5 penalty.
…..*Share Spells: * At the sorcerer’s option, they may have any spell (but not any spell-like ability) they cast on themselves also affect their companion.  The companion must be within 5 feet at the time of casting to receive the benefit. If the spell or effect has a duration other than instantaneous, it stops affecting the companion if it moves farther than 5 feet away and will not affect them again even if it returns to the sorcerer before the duration expires. Additionally, the sorcerer may cast a spell with a target of “You” on their companion (as a touch range spell) instead of on themselves. A sorcerer and their companion can share spells even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the companion’s type (magical beast).
…..*Spell Resistance (Ex): * A companion’s spell resistance equals its master’s sorcerer level + 5. To affect the companion with a spell, a spellcaster must get a result on a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) that equals or exceeds the companion’s spell resistance.

ALTERNATIVE COMPANION EXAMPLES
A sorcerer of sufficiently high level can select their companion from one of the following lists, applying the indicated adjustment to the sorcerer’s level (in parentheses) for purposes of determining the companion’s characteristics and special abilities. Some variations such as Celestial, Fiendish and Elementals may require certain lineages, per DM approval.
… *5th Level or Higher (Level –3):* Ape (animal); Bear, black (animal); Bison (animal); Boar (animal); Cheetah (animal); Crocodile (animal)*; Dire badger; Dire bat; Dire weasel; Leopard (animal); Lizard, monitor (animal); Lizard, shocker (animal); Shark, Large* (animal); Snake, constrictor (animal); Snake, Large viper (animal); Stirge; Wolverine (animal) 
Anarchic, Celestial, Feral, Fiendish, Half-Elemental, Shadow-bound, or Warbeast templated version of base list companion
… *8th Level or Higher (Level –6):* Bear, brown (animal); Dire wolverine; Crocodile, giant (animal); Deinonychus (dinosaur); Dire ape; Dire boar; Dire wolf; Elasmosaurus* (dinosaur); Lion (animal); Pseudodragon (dragon); Rhinoceros (animal); Snake, Huge viper (animal); Tiger (animal)
Anarchic, Celestial, Feral, Fiendish, Half-Elemental, Shadow-bound, or Warbeast templated version of 5th Level (Level-3) list companion
… *11th Level or Higher (Level –9):* Bear, polar (animal); Dire lion; Megaraptor (dinosaur); Shark, Huge* (animal); Snake, giant constrictor (animal); Whale, orca* (animal)
Anarchic, Celestial, Feral, Fiendish, Half-Elemental, Shadow-bound, or 
Warbeast templated version of 8th Level (Level-6) list companion
… *14th Level or Higher (Level –12):* Dire bear; Elephant (animal); Octopus, giant* (animal)
Anarchic, Celestial, Feral, Fiendish, Half-Elemental, Shadow-bound, or Warbeast templated version of 11th Level (Level-9) list companion
…*17th Level or Higher (Level –15):* Dire shark*; Dire tiger; Squid, giant* (animal); Triceratops (dinosaur); Tyrannosaurus (dinosaur)
Anarchic, Celestial, Feral, Fiendish, Half-Elemental, Shadow-bound, or Warbeast templated version of 14th Level (Level-12) list companion
(*) Available only in an aquatic environment.


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## Fieari (Jun 15, 2004)

PLAYTEST NOTES!

I've started playing a 5th Level Magical Family Lineage Sorcerer in my most recent game, and after only one session, it's been great.  I'm not certain 'm using the most up-to-date document though, since the one I'm using only specifies arcane sense at 2nd level and doesn't talk about familiars except under Magical Family, in which it's described "As a Wizard"... 

Anyway, despite all that, I'm having a blast.  My character concept was of a young rebellious youth... rebelling against his Lawful Evil Wizard parents, who are the madcap kind who go around digging dungeons and filling them with monsters and magical items for adventurers to get slaughtered in.  As such, my character hates magic, hates magic users, and upon running away, was disgusted to learn that Wizarding has been in his family so long that it's now in his very blood.  At least he's been able to focus on Abjuration... that way, he can dispel magic more than cast it.

Notes: Arcane Sense has been wonderful.  My character is paranoid that "Dad" has sent his familiar after him, so he's been taking pains to cover his tracks, and look around for anyone using magic that might be looking for him.  In the adventure so far, it's more or less felt like I get unlimited uses, as even detecting my beer every time I drink hasn't drained all my uses (only 17 CHA, so 3/day, but still enough so far).  If we actually go dungeon crawling, I might need more, but I glanced at the thread and it seems you've modified things so you get more arcane senses per day as you level up?  I'll need to check that out, sounds good to me.

Since I'm starting at 5th level, I've recieved a spell-like ability from my Abjuration spell list... and I chose "Protection from Alignment"... which is working out pretty well.  I can play up the paranoid runnaway pretty well, casting it serripticiously whenever I suspect something might be remiss, and not worry about losing my other spells... like Magic Missile, which was useful when we ran into some assassins.  And when the NPC we encounntered was wearing a cursed mind control ring and my spell-like ability was the only thing (short of cutting off a finger, which another NPC had done voluntarily to excape the ring) that could get it off his finger, that felt great.

I'm REALLY looking forwards to getting my Lineage Gift... although I'm somewhat dissapointed I can only choose Power Spell at 8th level, and not any of the others.  I really want Mastery of Counterspelling, esspecially as it fits so well with my character's theme: an anti-magic sorcerer. (I debated between the "Unknown Anti-magic" lineage and the "Magical Family Disjunction" lineage a bit, then decided that the ability to get Mastery of Counterspelling fit that niche so much better than the unknown lineage could possibly)  I'm considering asking my DM to allow me to just pick any given lineage gift from that list at 8th and 12th, not just at 12th.

All in all, it feels much more balanced and much more INTERESTING than the old Sorcerer.  I've always been a sorcerer fan, mostly by the flavor text, and at low levels I used to run out of spells really quickly... and now I don't.  As long as I don't push myself, and only inform the DM of my character's stats not the other players, I give off the feeling that I have unlimited magical potential at my fingertips.  I never have to let them see my limits, which does wonders for roleplaying a reputation!

I'm quite happy with what I've used so far, and I've only played the guy for ONE DAY.  Woohoo!


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## Evilhalfling (Jun 18, 2004)

Lineage for monster sorcerers – specifically Kaorti –  (Fiend Folio) 

Kaorti are a group of sorcerers and wizards who stepped through the dream realm and ended up in the far realm – They were absorbed by a nameless entity and transformed into terrible natives.  They are neutral evil, and cannot survive exposure to this world without protective armor. 
Spell like abilities: disguise self (at will); color spray, ray of enfeeblement, reduce, spider climb, feather fall 1/day
They tend to take the alienist PrC as quickly as possible.

So I am okay with some of the sorcerers loosing their lineage benefits from becoming Kaorti – but some lineages should be compatible.  Conjurer lineage would fit well with alienists, and Illusion lineage fits with the dream aspects.  The Kaorti have mostly alteration powers, the alienists have conjuration and dreamers illusion – erm help? 
The Far Realm is beyond alignment so those don’t work well. I see the dream realm as closely tied to both the far realm and the ethereal plane (they are co-mingled in my cosmology) And while the kaorti actually traveled to the far realm, there are humans who could follow that path. They are called the Dreamers.  

Dreamer: 0-ghost sound; 1st-true strike; 2nd-Blur; 3rd-major image; 4th-phantasmal killer; 5th-Dream; 6th-mislead; 7th-Plane Shift ; 8th-Etherealness; 9th-Foresight

*Benefits * – control over sleep, dreamers receive the benefits of 8 hours of sleep in 4, much like an elf.  Recovering spells still takes 8 hours.   Dreamers can also use the skill lucid dreaming at caster level + Wis Mod. Dreamers can sleep under difficult conditions, such as when wearing armor without penalties.  sorcerers with the dreamer lineage are immune to sleep spells.  When a dreamer uses summoning spells he taps into the place where nightmares dwell.  All summoned creatures gain the psudonatural template. This replaces the fiendish or celestial template otherwise applied.  

*Hindrances:*   Dreamers must be open to other worlds at all times, they loose the ability to learn or cast and abjuration spells that affect divinations or planer travelers – while retaining the abjurations that deal only with physical or elemental protection.  The sorcerer cannot use spell completion or spell trigger items that activate banned spells, as they just do not work for the sorcerer.


2nd level Aura Sight (scales by level) 
8th    ……….At 8th level the dreamer sorcerer gains the ability to sense, incorporeal and invisible creatures within 60’ which also reduces miss chances on incorporeal and invisible creatures by 25%., They receive a +2 save bonus vs. any spell in the illusionist school. 
14th  ? 
20th Transformation : See Alienist or if Kaorti, the Pseudonatural template


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## Khaalis (Jun 21, 2004)

Fieari said:
			
		

> PLAYTEST NOTES!




Thanks Fieari!



> I'm not certain 'm using the most up-to-date document though, since the one I'm using only specifies arcane sense at 2nd level and doesn't talk about familiars except under Magical Family, in which it's described "As a Wizard"...




You have the most up-to-date version. The Proposed changes here have NOT been implemented as I never received a single comment on them, so I was unsure whether to go forward with them or not.

I am glad you are enjoying the build. Further comments as you play it would be appreciated as well.

Thanks!

EvilHalfling – I don’t own the Fiend Folio so I am not sure how much help I can be for your Lineage build. Anyone else have it and can comment?


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## Evilhalfling (Jun 21, 2004)

well my totem spirit shaman player is having a ball. 
he is now a 3rd/4th barb/sorc 
specializing in personal buff spells.

speak w/animals, barkskin, as spell and war paint (brew potion) and blood auguary see regular use.  The flavor works wonderfully and he is a nice counterpoint to the new druid/ranger and the existing straight mage even though I was worried about overlap.  Between the druids animal messanger, the mage's owl familiar and the socr. speak w/animals the party spread out over two hundred miles and reassembled easily. 
I gave him the choice for a 5th level lineage spell - he selected Righteous might- and is looking forward to both that and the totem ability boosts at 8th lvl.  
He has came up with the concept of a totem pole abandonded in his peoples lost homeland, sold me on the idea, and convinced the party to go look for it  He is also has learned the totem animals for the other players and is working on creating personalized fetishes for each one.  He is so distict from a vanilla sorcerer that they might not even recognize what he is doing.


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## Mr. Draco (Jun 25, 2004)

Khaalis said:
			
		

> Still seeking comments on the mutable ability at second level.




Personally, I love the idea!  It allows sorcerrors to truly develop in any way the player chooses, as well as providing even more variation between individual sorcerrors.

As for other comments/criticism, I can't think of any as of just yet, but I'll mull it over for a while.


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## Khaalis (Jun 28, 2004)

Ok, after several requests here and via PM, I will bump this topic in search of comments on the mutable ability at second level. To anyone still on the boards familiar with this thread (as well as new people willing to check out the main class), I request thoughts and comments on the following change to the Lineage Sorcerer.  Thanks!

In place of "Arcane Sense" at 2nd level, the proposal is to substitute it with the mutable "Sorcerer Ability" option (as follows).


*Sorcerer Ability:* A sorcerer is not a defined term beyond that they share manipulation of arcane magic in common. Sorcerers can develop vastly different abilities from one another, usually as a reflection of their lineage, but other times it is a reflection of the sorcerer's upbringing and environmental influence. Sorcerers can fill many roles such as hedge wizards, fortune hunters, opportunists, charlatans, alchemists, demonologists, planar travelers, street wizards, investigators, adventurers, oracles and many other concepts as influenced by their surroundings. The varied abilities required by each different specialty are a reflection of the sorcerer’s specific culture and heritage.  At 2nd level the sorcerer gains one option from the list below that reflects the type of sorcerer they are developing into.

 *Arcane Sense (Sp):* The sorcerer is so in tune with magic that they can feel magic flow through them as well as sense its presence and flow in all things around them as well. As a result of this deep attunement, at 2nd level, the sorcerer’s senses allow them to see as if using _detect magic_ (as the spell) a number of times per day equal to their Charisma modifier. This spell-like ability is activated as a standard action that draws an attack of opportunity and requires full concentration for as many rounds as the sorcerer wishes to attain information (as the spell description). At 10th level the sorcerer's Arcane Sense spell-like ability improves from acting as a _detect magic_ spell to acting as an _arcane sight_ spell and at 18th level improves from acting as an _arcane sight_spell to acting as a _greater arcane sight_ spell.

 *Item Familiar:* The sorcerer may choose to imbue an item with a part of thei magical essence and eventually have it mirror their personality, thus gaining the ability to create an item familiar, using the “Item Familiar" option from the Unearthed Arcana (p.170). Note that a sorcerer cannot have both a familiar and an item familiar unless they possess the Extra Familiar feat.

 *Summoned Companion (Sp):* Upon reaching 2nd level, a sorcerer may choose to gain the service of an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal extra-planar animal to accompany and serve them on their adventures. This animal is usually a heavy warhorse (for a Medium sorcerer) or warpony (for a Small sorcerer), badger, camel, dire rat, dog (or riding dog), eagle, hawk, owl, snake (Medium viper) or wolf (or any other animal of no more than 2HD).
……….Once per day, as a full-round action, a sorcerer may magically call their companion from the extra-planar realm in which it resides. The companion immediately appears adjacent to the sorcerer and remains for 2 hours per sorcerer level; it may be dismissed at any time as a free action. The companion is the same creature each time it is summoned, though the sorcerer may release a particular companion from service.
……….Each time the companion is summoned, it appears in full health, regardless of any damage it may have taken previously. The companion also appears wearing or carrying any gear it had when it was last dismissed. Summoning a companion is a conjuration (summoning) effect.
……….Should the sorcerer’s companion die, it immediately disappears, leaving behind any equipment it was carrying. The sorcerer may not summon another companion for thirty days or until they gain a sorcerer level, whichever comes first, even if the companion is somehow returned from the dead. During this thirty-day period, the sorcerer takes a –1 penalty on attack and weapon damage rolls. If a sorcerer releases their companion from service, they may gain a new one by performing a ceremony requiring 24 uninterrupted hours of meditation. This ceremony is also required to replace a companion that has perished.
……….At 2nd-level the sorcerer’s companion is completely typical for its kind except as noted below. As the sorcerer advances in level, the companion’s power increases as shown on the table.  A sorcerer of 4th level or higher may select from an alternative list of companions (see below). Should they select a companion from one of these alternative lists, the creature gains abilities as if the character’s sorcerer level were lower than it actually is. Subtract the value indicated in the appropriate list header from the character’s sorcerer level and compare the result with the sorcerer level entry on the table to determine the companion’s powers. (If this adjustment would reduce the sorcerer’s effective level to 0 or lower, thet can’t have that creature as a companion.) 

*THE SORCERER’S SUMMONED COMPANION*
The sorcerer’s companion is superior to a normal creature of its kind and has special powers, as described below. A sorcerer’s companion is treated as a magical beast for the purpose of all effects that depend on its type (though it retains HD, base attack bonus, saves, skill points, and feats by its natural type).

*Sorcerer…….Bonus…..Natural…...Str/Dex………………Bonus
Level………...HD……....Armor……....ADJ…..…..INT…..Tricks……….Special*
2-4……….........+0……….....+2…………......+0……….......5…….....1………......Empathic Link, Share Spell
5-7………….......+2……….....+4………….....+1……….......6………...2………......Improved Evasion
8-10………….....+4……….....+6…………......+2……..….....7…….....3………......Devotion
11-14………......+6……….....+8………….....+3……..….....8………...4………......Multiattack
15-20………......+8………....+10……….......+4……..….....9………...5………......Spell Resistance

*Sorcerer’s Companion Basics:* Use the base statistics for a creature of the companion’s kind, but make changes to take into account the attributes and characteristics summarized on the table and described below.
…..*Bonus HD:* Extra eight-sided (d8) Hit Dice, each of which gains a Constitution modifier, as normal. Extra Hit Dice improve the companion’s base attack and base save bonuses. A summoned companion’s base attack bonus is equal to that of a cleric of a level equal to the companion’s HD. A companion has good Fortitude and Reflex saves (treat it as a character whose level equals the companion’s HD). The companion gains additional skill points or feats for bonus HD as normal for advancing a monster’s Hit Dice.
…..*Natural Armor Adj.: * The number on the table is an improvement to the companion’s existing natural armor bonus.
…..*Str/Dex Adj.: * Add this figure to the companion’s Strength and Dexterity scores.
…..*Int: * The companion’s Intelligence score.
…..*Bonus Tricks: * The value given in this column is the total number of “bonus” tricks that the companion knows in addition to any that the sorcerer might choose, or be able to teach it (see the Handle Animal skill). These bonus tricks don’t require any training time or Handle Animal checks, and they don’t count against the normal limit of tricks known by the companion. The sorcerer selects these bonus tricks, and once selected, they can’t be changed.
…..*Devotion (Ex): * A companion gains a +4 morale bonus on Will saves against enchantment spells and effects.
…..*Empathic Link (Su): * The sorcerer has an empathic link with their companion out to a distance of up to 1 mile. The sorcerer cannot see through the companion’s eyes, but they can communicate empathically. Note that even intelligent companions see the world differently from humans, so misunderstandings are always possible. Because of this empathic link, the sorcerer has the same connection to an item or place that their companion does, just as with a master and familiar (see Familiars).
…..*Improved Evasion (Ex): *When subjected to an attack that normally allows a Reflex saving throw for half damage, a companion takes no damage if it makes a successful saving throw and half damage if the saving throw fails.
…..*Multiattack: * A companion gains Multiattack as a bonus feat if it has three or more natural attacks and does not already have that feat. If it does not have the requisite three or more natural attacks, the companion instead gains a second attack with its primary natural weapon, albeit at a –5 penalty.
…..*Share Spells: * At the sorcerer’s option, they may have any spell (but not any spell-like ability) they cast on themselves also affect their companion.  The companion must be within 5 feet at the time of casting to receive the benefit. If the spell or effect has a duration other than instantaneous, it stops affecting the companion if it moves farther than 5 feet away and will not affect them again even if it returns to the sorcerer before the duration expires. Additionally, the sorcerer may cast a spell with a target of “You” on their companion (as a touch range spell) instead of on themselves. A sorcerer and their companion can share spells even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the companion’s type (magical beast).
…..*Spell Resistance (Ex): * A companion’s spell resistance equals its master’s sorcerer level + 5. To affect the companion with a spell, a spellcaster must get a result on a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) that equals or exceeds the companion’s spell resistance.

*ALTERNATIVE COMPANION EXAMPLES*
A sorcerer of sufficiently high level can select their companion from one of the following lists, applying the indicated adjustment to the sorcerer’s level (in parentheses) for purposes of determining the companion’s characteristics and special abilities. Some variations such as Celestial, Fiendish and Elementals may require certain lineages, per DM approval.
… *5th Level or Higher (Level –3):* Ape (animal); Bear, black (animal); Bison (animal); Boar (animal); Cheetah (animal); Crocodile (animal)*; Dire badger; Dire bat; Dire weasel; Leopard (animal); Lizard, monitor (animal); Lizard, shocker (animal); Shark, Large* (animal); Snake, constrictor (animal); Snake, Large viper (animal); Stirge; Wolverine (animal) 
Anarchic, Celestial, Feral, Fiendish, Half-Elemental, Shadow-bound, or Warbeast templated version of base list companion
… *8th Level or Higher (Level –6):* Bear, brown (animal); Dire wolverine; Crocodile, giant (animal); Deinonychus (dinosaur); Dire ape; Dire boar; Dire wolf; Elasmosaurus* (dinosaur); Lion (animal); Pseudodragon (dragon); Rhinoceros (animal); Snake, Huge viper (animal); Tiger (animal)
Anarchic, Celestial, Feral, Fiendish, Half-Elemental, Shadow-bound, or Warbeast templated version of 5th Level (Level-3) list companion
… *11th Level or Higher (Level –9):* Bear, polar (animal); Dire lion; Megaraptor (dinosaur); Shark, Huge* (animal); Snake, giant constrictor (animal); Whale, orca* (animal)
Anarchic, Celestial, Feral, Fiendish, Half-Elemental, Shadow-bound, or 
Warbeast templated version of 8th Level (Level-6) list companion
… *14th Level or Higher (Level –12):* Dire bear; Elephant (animal); Octopus, giant* (animal)
Anarchic, Celestial, Feral, Fiendish, Half-Elemental, Shadow-bound, or Warbeast templated version of 11th Level (Level-9) list companion
…*17th Level or Higher (Level –15):* Dire shark*; Dire tiger; Squid, giant* (animal); Triceratops (dinosaur); Tyrannosaurus (dinosaur)
Anarchic, Celestial, Feral, Fiendish, Half-Elemental, Shadow-bound, or Warbeast templated version of 14th Level (Level-12) list companion
(*) Available only in an aquatic environment.


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## Laman Stahros (Jun 28, 2004)

Khaalis said:
			
		

> *Summoned Companion (Sp):*
> …..*Int: *The companion’s Intelligence score.
> …..*Bonus Tricks: *The value given in this column is the total number of “bonus” tricks that the companion knows in addition to any that the sorcerer might choose, or be able to teach it (see the Handle Animal skill). These bonus tricks don’t require any training time or Handle Animal checks, and they don’t count against the normal limit of tricks known by the companion. The sorcerer selects these bonus tricks, and once selected, they can’t be changed.



I love these options, however, if the Summoned Companion's Int is going to increase then it is not an animal (its a Magical Beast) and the Handle Animal rules should not be used.

You also mentioned as a balancing factor between this and the druid's animal companion that the druid can have multiple companions. In 3.5E, that is not correct. They can have one companion and the Animal Friendship spell is gone.


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## Fieari (Jun 29, 2004)

Hm.  One of the things I was planning to have my character do, once he reaches a higher level, was to grab a dragon familiar.  The Draconomicon has rules for this, and it would slide so easily into that list you have there.  Or would that be against the rules?  I'm not really clear about what's open game (to be included in this sort of thing) and what's not...


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## Khaalis (Jun 29, 2004)

Good catch on the Tricks. Removed. Also a good catch on the Druid companion. I had forgotten about the change to single companion in 3.5.  The real balance factor is that unlike a druid’s companion which is around all the time, the sorcerer’s is conjured and last only a few hours per level, and may only be summoned 1/day. 

Fieari – I am not sure what, if anything in the Draconomicon is OGL. I don’t think any of it is actually. I will have to check once I get access to the book (likely Thu).

The altered ability appears as follows.

 *Summoned Companion (Sp):* Upon reaching 2nd level, a sorcerer may choose to gain the service of an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal extra-planar animal to accompany and serve them on their adventures. This animal is usually a heavy warhorse (for a Medium sorcerer) or warpony (for a Small sorcerer), badger, camel, dire rat, dog (or riding dog), eagle, hawk, owl, snake (Medium viper) or wolf (or any other animal of no more than 2HD).
……….Once per day, as a full-round action, a sorcerer may magically call their companion from the extra-planar realm in which it resides. The companion immediately appears adjacent to the sorcerer and remains for 2 hours per sorcerer level; it may be dismissed at any time as a free action. The companion is the same creature each time it is summoned, though the sorcerer may release a particular companion from service.
……….Each time the companion is summoned, it appears in full health, regardless of any damage it may have taken previously. The companion also appears wearing or carrying any gear it had when it was last dismissed. Summoning a companion is a conjuration (summoning) effect.
……….Should the sorcerer’s companion die, it immediately disappears, leaving behind any equipment it was carrying. The sorcerer may not summon another companion for thirty days or until they gain a sorcerer level, whichever comes first, even if the companion is somehow returned from the dead. During this thirty-day period, the sorcerer takes a –1 penalty on attack and weapon damage rolls. If a sorcerer releases their companion from service, they may gain a new one by performing a ceremony requiring 24 uninterrupted hours of meditation. This ceremony is also required to replace a companion that has perished.
……….At 2nd-level the sorcerer’s companion is completely typical for its kind except as noted below. As the sorcerer advances in level, the companion’s power increases as shown on the table.  A sorcerer of 4th level or higher may select from an alternative list of companions (see below). Should they select a companion from one of these alternative lists, the creature gains abilities as if the character’s sorcerer level were lower than it actually is. Subtract the value indicated in the appropriate list header from the character’s sorcerer level and compare the result with the sorcerer level entry on the table to determine the companion’s powers. (If this adjustment would reduce the sorcerer’s effective level to 0 or lower, thet can’t have that creature as a companion.) 

*THE SORCERER’S SUMMONED COMPANION*
The sorcerer’s companion is superior to a normal creature of its kind and has special powers, as described below. A sorcerer’s companion is treated as a magical beast for the purpose of all effects that depend on its type (though it retains HD, base attack bonus, saves, skill points, and feats by its natural type).

*Sorcerer…….Bonus…..Natural…...Str/Dex………………Bonus
Level………...HD……....Armor……....ADJ…..…..INT…..Special*
2-4……….........+0……….....+2…………......+0……….......5…….....Empathic Link, Share Spell
5-7………….......+2……….....+4………….....+1……….......6………...Improved Evasion
8-10………….....+4……….....+6…………......+2……..….....7…….....Devotion
11-14………......+6……….....+8………….....+3……..….....8………...Multiattack
15-20………......+8………....+10……….......+4……..….....9………...Spell Resistance

*Sorcerer’s Companion Basics:* Use the base statistics for a creature of the companion’s kind, but make changes to take into account the attributes and characteristics summarized on the table and described below.
…..*Bonus HD:* Extra eight-sided (d8) Hit Dice, each of which gains a Constitution modifier, as normal. Extra Hit Dice improve the companion’s base attack and base save bonuses. A summoned companion’s base attack bonus is equal to that of a cleric of a level equal to the companion’s HD. A companion has good Fortitude and Reflex saves (treat it as a character whose level equals the companion’s HD). The companion gains additional skill points or feats for bonus HD as normal for advancing a monster’s Hit Dice.
…..*Natural Armor Adj.: * The number on the table is an improvement to the companion’s existing natural armor bonus.
…..*Str/Dex Adj.: * Add this figure to the companion’s Strength and Dexterity scores.
…..*Int: * The companion’s Intelligence score.
…..*Devotion (Ex): * A companion gains a +4 morale bonus on Will saves against enchantment spells and effects.
…..*Empathic Link (Su): * The sorcerer has an empathic link with their companion out to a distance of up to 1 mile. The sorcerer cannot see through the companion’s eyes, but they can communicate empathically. Note that even intelligent companions see the world differently from humans, so misunderstandings are always possible. Because of this empathic link, the sorcerer has the same connection to an item or place that their companion does, just as with a master and familiar (see Familiars).
…..*Improved Evasion (Ex): *When subjected to an attack that normally allows a Reflex saving throw for half damage, a companion takes no damage if it makes a successful saving throw and half damage if the saving throw fails.
…..*Multiattack: * A companion gains Multiattack as a bonus feat if it has three or more natural attacks and does not already have that feat. If it does not have the requisite three or more natural attacks, the companion instead gains a second attack with its primary natural weapon, albeit at a –5 penalty.
…..*Share Spells: * At the sorcerer’s option, they may have any spell (but not any spell-like ability) they cast on themselves also affect their companion.  The companion must be within 5 feet at the time of casting to receive the benefit. If the spell or effect has a duration other than instantaneous, it stops affecting the companion if it moves farther than 5 feet away and will not affect them again even if it returns to the sorcerer before the duration expires. Additionally, the sorcerer may cast a spell with a target of “You” on their companion (as a touch range spell) instead of on themselves. A sorcerer and their companion can share spells even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the companion’s type (magical beast).
…..*Spell Resistance (Ex): * A companion’s spell resistance equals its master’s sorcerer level + 5. To affect the companion with a spell, a spellcaster must get a result on a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) that equals or exceeds the companion’s spell resistance.

*ALTERNATIVE COMPANION EXAMPLES*
A sorcerer of sufficiently high level can select their companion from one of the following lists, applying the indicated adjustment to the sorcerer’s level (in parentheses) for purposes of determining the companion’s characteristics and special abilities. Some variations such as Celestial, Fiendish and Elementals may require certain lineages, per DM approval.
… *5th Level or Higher (Level –3):* Ape (animal); Bear, black (animal); Bison (animal); Boar (animal); Cheetah (animal); Crocodile (animal)*; Dire badger; Dire bat; Dire weasel; Leopard (animal); Lizard, monitor (animal); Lizard, shocker (animal); Shark, Large* (animal); Snake, constrictor (animal); Snake, Large viper (animal); Stirge; Wolverine (animal) 
Anarchic, Celestial, Feral, Fiendish, Half-Elemental, Shadow-bound, or Warbeast templated version of base list companion
… *8th Level or Higher (Level –6):* Bear, brown (animal); Dire wolverine; Crocodile, giant (animal); Deinonychus (dinosaur); Dire ape; Dire boar; Dire wolf; Elasmosaurus* (dinosaur); Lion (animal); Pseudodragon (dragon); Rhinoceros (animal); Snake, Huge viper (animal); Tiger (animal)
Anarchic, Celestial, Feral, Fiendish, Half-Elemental, Shadow-bound, or Warbeast templated version of 5th Level (Level-3) list companion
… *11th Level or Higher (Level –9):* Bear, polar (animal); Dire lion; Megaraptor (dinosaur); Shark, Huge* (animal); Snake, giant constrictor (animal); Whale, orca* (animal)
Anarchic, Celestial, Feral, Fiendish, Half-Elemental, Shadow-bound, or 
Warbeast templated version of 8th Level (Level-6) list companion
… *14th Level or Higher (Level –12):* Dire bear; Elephant (animal); Octopus, giant* (animal)
Anarchic, Celestial, Feral, Fiendish, Half-Elemental, Shadow-bound, or Warbeast templated version of 11th Level (Level-9) list companion
…*17th Level or Higher (Level –15):* Dire shark*; Dire tiger; Squid, giant* (animal); Triceratops (dinosaur); Tyrannosaurus (dinosaur)
Anarchic, Celestial, Feral, Fiendish, Half-Elemental, Shadow-bound, or Warbeast templated version of 14th Level (Level-12) list companion

(*) Available only in an aquatic environment.


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## Mark Causey (Jun 29, 2004)

Would it be possible to alter the Leadership feat for this ability, specifically for the cohort?

I could see a Fey lineage sorceror with a grig, maybe ...

I know that this has no mechanics worked out already, and would be a large possible hole for abuse, but it seems that a HD or maybe CR instead of level of the companion, and making it related to the lineage would make sense ...

Just adding something in ^_^

AtR


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## Khaalis (Jun 30, 2004)

adamantineangel said:
			
		

> Would it be possible to alter the Leadership feat for this ability, specifically for the cohort?
> 
> I could see a Fey lineage sorceror with a grig, maybe ...
> 
> ...




First - Thanks for the input!

As for the idea, I had thought of this. It is basically the premise used in Draconomicon as well as for the special Paladin Mounts.  The only issue with using it for the Sorcerer would be the level restriction. I dont think I would want to give Leadership (even limited) at 2nd level, especially since most of the cohorts that would fit the individual sorcerers would require a decently high leadership score. 

Any other thoughts on this?


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## Mark Causey (Jul 12, 2004)

I suppose, then, that you could just add the fey creatures at the different level adjustments ...

maybe there could be a feat like improved familiar that increases your level relative to the companion chart, maybe up one echelon?


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## Khaalis (Jul 20, 2004)

Ok last run before it is added to the class description.

*Sorcerer Ability:* A sorcerer is not a defined term beyond the fact that they share manipulation of arcane magic in common. Sorcerers can develop vastly different abilities from one another, usually as a reflection of their lineage, but other times it is a reflection of the sorcerer's upbringing and environmental influence. Sorcerers can fill many roles such as hedge wizards, fortune hunters, opportunists, charlatans, alchemists, demonologists, planar travelers, street wizards, investigators, adventurers, oracles and many other concepts as influenced by their surroundings. The varied abilities required by each different specialty are a reflection of the sorcerer’s specific culture and heritage.  At 2nd level the sorcerer gains one option from the list below that reflects the type of sorcerer they are developing into.

*Animal Companion (Ex):* A sorcerer may use their presence and natural charm to gain an animal companion. This is a free-willed animal and acts in all respects as a druid's animal companion  (see the _Druid_ in the Player's Handbook), but progress more slowly. Sorcerer animal companions progress using the following ANIMAL COMPANION table.

*Sorcerer…….Bonus…..Natural…...Str/Dex………Bonus
Level………...HD……....Armor……....ADJ…..…..Tricks....Special*
2-5……….........+0……….....+2…………......+0……….......1…….....Link, Share Spell
6-8………….......+2……….....+4………….....+1……….......2………...Evasion
9-11………….....+4……….....+6…………......+2……..….....3…….....Devotion
12-14………......+6……….....+8………….....+3……..….....4………...Multiattack
15-17………......+8………....+10……….......+4……..….....5………...-----
18-20………......+10………..+12……….......+5……..….....6………...Improved Evasion

*Arcane Sense (Sp):* The sorcerer is so in tune with magic that they can feel magic flow through them as well as sense its presence and flow in all things around them as well. As a result of this deep attunement, at 2nd level, the sorcerer’s senses allow them to see as if using _detect magic_ (as the spell) a number of times per day equal to their 3+ their Charisma modifier plus one additional use per 5 sorcerer levels. This spell-like ability is activated as a standard action that draws an attack of opportunity and requires full concentration for as many rounds as the sorcerer wishes to attain information (as the spell description). At 10th level the sorcerer's Arcane Sense spell-like ability improves from acting as a _detect magic_ spell to acting as an _arcane sight_ spell and at 18th level improves from acting as an [/i]arcane sight[/i] spell to acting as a _greater arcane sight_ spell.

*Item Familiar:* The sorcerer may choose to imbue an item with a part of their magical essence and eventually have it mirror their personality, thus gaining the ability to create an item familiar, using the “Item Familiar" option from the Unearthed Arcana (p.170). Note that a sorcerer cannot have both a familiar and an item familiar unless they possess the _Extra Familiar_ feat.

*Summoned Companion (Sp):* Upon reaching 2nd level, a sorcerer may choose to gain the service of an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal extra-planar animal to accompany and serve them on their adventures. This animal is usually a heavy warhorse (for a Medium sorcerer) or warpony (for a Small sorcerer), badger, camel, dire rat, dog (or riding dog), eagle, hawk, owl, snake (Medium viper) or wolf (or any other animal of no more than 2HD).
……….Once per day, as a full-round action, a sorcerer may magically call their companion from the extra-planar realm in which it resides. The companion immediately appears adjacent to the sorcerer and remains for 2 hours per sorcerer level; it may be dismissed at any time as a free action. The companion is the same creature each time it is summoned, though the sorcerer may release a particular companion from service.
……….Each time the companion is summoned, it appears in full health, regardless of any damage it may have taken previously. The companion also appears wearing or carrying any gear it had when it was last dismissed. Summoning a companion is a conjuration (summoning) effect.
……….Should the sorcerer’s companion die, it immediately disappears, leaving behind any equipment it was carrying. The sorcerer may not summon another companion for thirty days or until they gain a sorcerer level, whichever comes first, even if the companion is somehow returned from the dead. During this thirty-day period, the sorcerer takes a –1 penalty on attack and weapon damage rolls. If a sorcerer releases their companion from service, they may gain a new one by performing a ceremony requiring 24 uninterrupted hours of meditation. This ceremony is also required to replace a companion that has perished.
……….At 2nd-level the sorcerer’s companion is completely typical for its kind except as noted below. As the sorcerer advances in level, the companion’s power increases as shown on the table.  A sorcerer of 4th level or higher may select from an alternative list of companions (see below). Should they select a companion from one of these alternative lists, the creature gains abilities as if the character’s sorcerer level were lower than it actually is. Subtract the value indicated in the appropriate list header from the character’s sorcerer level and compare the result with the sorcerer level entry on the table to determine the companion’s powers. (If this adjustment would reduce the sorcerer’s effective level to 0 or lower, thet can’t have that creature as a companion.) 

*THE SORCERER’S SUMMONED COMPANION*
The sorcerer’s companion is superior to a normal creature of its kind and has special powers, as described below. A sorcerer’s companion is treated as a magical beast for the purpose of all effects that depend on its type (though it retains HD, base attack bonus, saves, skill points, and feats by its natural type).

*Sorcerer…….Bonus…..Natural…...Str/Dex………………Bonus
Level………...HD……....Armor……....ADJ…..…..INT…..Special*
2-4……….........+0……….....+2…………......+0……….......5…….....Empathic Link, Share Spell
5-7………….......+2……….....+4………….....+1……….......6………...Improved Evasion
8-10………….....+4……….....+6…………......+2……..….....7…….....Devotion
11-14………......+6……….....+8………….....+3……..….....8………...Multiattack
15-20………......+8………....+10……….......+4……..….....9………...Spell Resistance

*Sorcerer’s Companion Basics:* Use the base statistics for a creature of the companion’s kind, but make changes to take into account the attributes and characteristics summarized on the table and described below.
…..*Bonus HD:* Extra eight-sided (d8) Hit Dice, each of which gains a Constitution modifier, as normal. Extra Hit Dice improve the companion’s base attack and base save bonuses. A summoned companion’s base attack bonus is equal to that of a cleric of a level equal to the companion’s HD. A companion has good Fortitude and Reflex saves (treat it as a character whose level equals the companion’s HD). The companion gains additional skill points or feats for bonus HD as normal for advancing a monster’s Hit Dice.
…..*Natural Armor Adj.: * The number on the table is an improvement to the companion’s existing natural armor bonus.
…..*Str/Dex Adj.: * Add this figure to the companion’s Strength and Dexterity scores.
…..*Int: * The companion’s Intelligence score.
…..*Devotion (Ex): * A companion gains a +4 morale bonus on Will saves against enchantment spells and effects.
…..*Empathic Link (Su): * The sorcerer has an empathic link with their companion out to a distance of up to 1 mile. The sorcerer cannot see through the companion’s eyes, but they can communicate empathically. Note that even intelligent companions see the world differently from humans, so misunderstandings are always possible. Because of this empathic link, the sorcerer has the same connection to an item or place that their companion does, just as with a master and familiar (see Familiars).
…..*Improved Evasion (Ex): *When subjected to an attack that normally allows a Reflex saving throw for half damage, a companion takes no damage if it makes a successful saving throw and half damage if the saving throw fails.
…..*Multiattack: * A companion gains Multiattack as a bonus feat if it has three or more natural attacks and does not already have that feat. If it does not have the requisite three or more natural attacks, the companion instead gains a second attack with its primary natural weapon, albeit at a –5 penalty.
…..*Share Spells: * At the sorcerer’s option, they may have any spell (but not any spell-like ability) they cast on themselves also affect their companion.  The companion must be within 5 feet at the time of casting to receive the benefit. If the spell or effect has a duration other than instantaneous, it stops affecting the companion if it moves farther than 5 feet away and will not affect them again even if it returns to the sorcerer before the duration expires. Additionally, the sorcerer may cast a spell with a target of “You” on their companion (as a touch range spell) instead of on themselves. A sorcerer and their companion can share spells even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the companion’s type (magical beast).
…..*Spell Resistance (Ex): * A companion’s spell resistance equals its master’s sorcerer level + 5. To affect the companion with a spell, a spellcaster must get a result on a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) that equals or exceeds the companion’s spell resistance.


----- *ALTERNATIVE COMPANION EXAMPLES* -----
A sorcerer of sufficiently high level can select their animal or summoned companion from one of the following lists, applying the indicated adjustment to the sorcerer’s level (in parentheses) for purposes of determining the companion’s characteristics and special abilities. Some variations such as Celestial, Fiendish and Elementals may require certain lineages, per DM approval.
… *5th Level or Higher (Level –3):* Ape (animal); Bear, black (animal); Bison (animal); Boar (animal); Cheetah (animal); Crocodile (animal)*; Dire badger; Dire bat; Dire weasel; Leopard (animal); Lizard, monitor (animal); Lizard, shocker (animal); Shark, Large* (animal); Snake, constrictor (animal); Snake, Large viper (animal); Stirge; Wolverine (animal) 
Anarchic, Celestial, Feral, Fiendish, Half-Elemental, Shadow-bound, or Warbeast templated version of base list companion
… *8th Level or Higher (Level –6):* Bear, brown (animal); Dire wolverine; Crocodile, giant (animal); Deinonychus (dinosaur); Dire ape; Dire boar; Dire wolf; Elasmosaurus* (dinosaur); Lion (animal); Pseudodragon (dragon); Rhinoceros (animal); Snake, Huge viper (animal); Tiger (animal)
Anarchic, Celestial, Feral, Fiendish, Half-Elemental, Shadow-bound, or Warbeast templated version of 5th Level (Level-3) list companion
… *11th Level or Higher (Level –9):* Bear, polar (animal); Dire lion; Megaraptor (dinosaur); Shark, Huge* (animal); Snake, giant constrictor (animal); Whale, orca* (animal)
Anarchic, Celestial, Feral, Fiendish, Half-Elemental, Shadow-bound, or 
Warbeast templated version of 8th Level (Level-6) list companion
… *14th Level or Higher (Level –12):* Dire bear; Elephant (animal); Octopus, giant* (animal)
Anarchic, Celestial, Feral, Fiendish, Half-Elemental, Shadow-bound, or Warbeast templated version of 11th Level (Level-9) list companion
…*17th Level or Higher (Level –15):* Dire shark*; Dire tiger; Squid, giant* (animal); Triceratops (dinosaur); Tyrannosaurus (dinosaur)
Anarchic, Celestial, Feral, Fiendish, Half-Elemental, Shadow-bound, or Warbeast templated version of 14th Level (Level-12) list companion

_(*) Available only in an aquatic environment._


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## Khaalis (Jul 20, 2004)

*UPDATES

SORCERER REVISION UPDATE 4.04
SORCERER REVISION UPDATE 7.04*

The PDF version of the work-in-progress to date is located at:
http://home.rochester.rr.com/khaalisrealm/


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## Gustave Arcanus (Aug 26, 2004)

Wow, what a thread.  First visit to the forum, and I get mind-fried with this monstrosity.      I love it.  I've always loved sorcerers, and have always felt (as have so many others) that they get the shortest end of the stick, followed closely by wizards.

Unfortunately, I haven't the time to read all four threads completely and the PDF links for some reason are coming up as corrupted.  I'm no playtester or article writer (congrats to those of you that are), but I've got some ideas from times playing such casters and other classes.

The spell display (Psion-eque) from the frist thread sounded really interesting, and I love the idea of the aura (beginning of 2nd thread).  The 2 spells per level increase was a concept I'd discussed with my local group, and made sense to us.  Also, we'd toyed with giving all base classes 4+Int for skill points, with two exceptions: Rogue (8) and Bard (6).  Cutting the Ranger's 6+Int, I know, but we've always felt that the class features and spells were more than enough to make up for it.  Especially our group ranger's personal favorite, Hunter's Mercy.

But I guess that's digressing a bit, since this is supposed to be about sorcs.  Maybe, but more next time.  Assuming this thread is even still living.


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## Fieari (Aug 26, 2004)

Well, unfortunatly, my current group has broken up for the school semester since we go to different colleges, and thus I wasn't able to level up my sorc sufficiently to give further analysis, but on the upside, I'm looking into finding a group this semester at MY college, and I'll probably be DMing so this sorcerer would definitely be an option I'd give to my players... so I might be able to give more reports later in the year.


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## Khaalis (Aug 26, 2004)

*Gustave Arcanus:* Thanks for the comments and the renewed interest in the threads. They have been dead for quite some time now, but getting small bumps now and then.  I am not sure why you cannot download from the links. I just tested both from here at work and all seems fine. If you like, drop me a PM with your email and I can send them out to you directly.

*Fieari:* Thanks for the update. Good luck on finding a game group at college. Oh I do so miss those days.  I was the original founding president of the gaming club on campus where I went to school. Unfortunately the club only lasted about 4 years after my graduation before it died off.  Anyway, any testing comments you have at any time would be appreciated.

Thanks!


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## Gustave Arcanus (Aug 27, 2004)

*Sorcerer Ideas From The Front Lines*

In thinking of the Aura ability and specialization, the Quintessential Sorcerer's character concepts dealing with school specialization (Summoner, Spirit Guide, etc) all require half the sorcerer's list be of a given school (Conjuration and Necromancy, respectively).  It'd be a little extra bookkeeping, but any sorcerer with half or more of their known list of a given school would be considered "tainted" by it, and would show up in their aura.  Otherwise, it'd show up as Universal (would also register this way, obviously, if the mage in question failed the Spellcraft check).  And it wasn't said at the time (2nd thread) but I figured the aura strength could be based on the highest level spells the sorcerer knows, much like a magic item is rated.

The Spell Display idea was good, but the feet/spell level thing kind of confused me, since they were given in ranges of spell levels anyway.  Also 0-level spells were left off (the chart started at 1-2); was that intentional or an oversight?  Anyway, I averaged the resulting areas and came up with 15', 120', 400', and 1000' radii respectively for the four categories.  Also replaced the "Always" entry with a 0 for Extreme.  Mostly because distance from the radius and other such things could raise it, and there's always the Murphy's Law of a natural 1.    

I'm converting an old 3.0 sorcerer (Ray Bradoc BTW, props to those that know the reference) to 3.5 for an upcoming game where he and three other characters become somewhat of the Four Horsemen and take over Sembia on their quest for power and glory.  They'd always worked for Cormyr, and let's face it.  Sembia's got some prime land.    Anyway, I'll be going over the books (I only have 3.0 Players, Tome & Blood, and 3rd party at the moment) so more to come.

Happy Gaming!


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## jharn (Aug 28, 2004)

I like what I have read so far about this sorcerer.  Unfortunatly,  my version of Acrobat will not allow me to read the PDF for some reason. I would love to get a copy of the Lineage Sorceror in html or Text format so that I can really read all of it.


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## Khaalis (Aug 30, 2004)

*JHARN:* You can download Acrobat Reader 6.0 for free here. 

http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep2.html

You are the first person I have heard of having an issue with the format, so if you are running a really old version of Reader, you should upgrade anyway since most pdfs out there are v6.


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## Angel Tarragon (Sep 13, 2004)

This awesome material! I can not wait to use it my game. Thank you very much for some well thought out options!


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## Fieari (Sep 13, 2004)

Fisrt session with my new group.  We have one sorcerer, who is using the magical familiy lineage, conjuration specialist.  At level three, he has one level of sorc, and a +2LA template of Half-Dragon.  He remarked that it was nice to see that he wasn't allowed to munchkin taking Child of Fire with the half-dragon, since that would be a little over the top.  It made him REALLY think about whether he wanted that half-dragon template or not, and though he decided to go for it in the end, I could tell it was a struggle.

No imbalances at this point in time... for the first session, he hasn't even used any abilities that are above and beyond the regular sorcerer.  He's mostly been trying to keep the other (idiot) players from killing themselves with strategic usage of magic missile.

I'll keep you updated week to week if I can.


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## FoxWander (Sep 13, 2004)

Great post! I remember looking through the first installment but never getting around to adding anything, even though I felt the same way about the sorcerer problem. I'm pleased to see some of your lineage templates are almost exactly the same ideas I've had- namely the Shifter and Divine Receptacle lineages. And all the other ideas are just as great. 

Now I do have something to add though. I've been running my group through a published adventure where the main adversary is a necromancy themed sorcerer. It inspired me to consider what the personality of someone who has _natural, inborn_ necromancy powers must be like. I have to imagine they'd have a pretty strange view on life. Which got me to thinking of Brian Lumley's _Necroscope_. If you've never read it, the main character has the natural ability to speak with the dead. Exactly as you and I might have a conversation about life, our job, or our hobbies; this character would sit in a graveyard and talk to the dead. And then there's the kid in _The Sixth Sense_. Anyway, all of this leads up to a lineage type you don't have yet. So here's my contribution- 

*The Death-Touched Lineage*
Death-touched sorcerers are the descendents of those scarred by necromancy or a prolonged relationship with the undead (perhaps their mother was energy drained while they were in the womb?). This lineage gives them an affinity for the death, spirits and the undead.

*Benefit:* Death-touched sorcerers gain Knowledge (Religion and Arcana) and Move Silently as class skills. Their nature makes them naturally suited for esoteric thought as well as embodying the phrase ‘quiet as the grave’. They may also speak with the dead at will, but note: this *is not* as the spell of the same name. They are actually conversing with the spirit of the departed and not the “imprinted knowledge stored in the corpse”, and the spirit is under no compulsion to answer, whether truthfully or not; or indeed to even answer at all. The desire of the spirit to communicate is solely a function of diplomacy and its nature in life. Also unlike the spell, the corpse does not actually ‘speak’, rather the sorcerer receives any reply mentally. Thus any companions or observers hear only a one sided conversation. The sorcerer must either be within normal conversation range (about 20’ max) of the actual corpse (or a part of it), or he must be touching a person or object very dear to the dead creature in life. This *speak with the dead* ability gives them a +2 on any applicable Gather Information checks. Death-touched sorcerers may learn any Necromancy spell regardless of the spell list from which it comes.

*Special Limitation:* Death-touched sorcerers are heavily influenced by their ancestry and suffer some of the vulnerabilities of that undead heritage. Whenever a death-touched sorcerer is the subject of a Cure Wounds spell they must make a Will save appropriate to the level of the spell or be damaged by the spell instead. The sorcerer may apply spell resistance, if any, and may attempt a second Will save to take only half damage. Conversely though, if the death-touched is the subject an Inflict Wounds spell they may be cured by it instead with a successful Will save. Due to their strong affinity to death and the spirit world they are left with a natural weakness toward good magic, receiving a –2 penalty to all saving throws against any spell, spell-like ability, or supernatural ability of the good descriptor or used by creatures of the good subtype.

*Lineage Spells:* The death-touched sorcerer has a specific affinity with death and the undead and that manifests in a Lineage Spell List. These lineage spells may never be changed through spell swapping or spell evolution, but only through Innate Ability evolution. These lineage spells are gained as bonus known spells as soon as the sorcerer is able to cast spells of that spell level. The sorcerer gains the Death-Touched Lineage spell list.
*Death-Touched Lineage Spell List:* _0–touch of fatigue; 1st-chill touch; 2nd-command undead; 3rd-vampiric touch; 4th-animate dead; 5th-magic jar; 6th-create undead; 7th-ethereal jaunt; 8th-create greater undead; 9th–energy drain_

*Lineage Abilities:* The death-touched sorcerer’s connection with the dead grows over time and they become more attune to the forces of the spirit world. 
-- At 8th level the death-touched sorcerer gains the ability to sense the undead, spirits, ethereal and incorporeal creatures within 60’ at will. This reduces the miss chance versus incorporeal creatures to 25%. The death-touched sorcerer also gains protection as if under a permanent _Death Ward_ spell.
-- At 14th level the death-touched sorcerer's connection to their undead ancestry deepens such that they take on some of the traits of undeath. The sorcerer gains immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects), poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, and disease; as well as fatigue and exhaustion effects. However, this radical change to their very nature has a deep impact on their ability to connect with and understand the living. They suffer a –2 penalty to any skill checks involving interaction with those who are _not_ dead.
-- At 20th level, a death-touched sorcerer becomes so attune to their lineage that they gain the outsider type as well as the augmented and native subtypes. The sorcerer undergoes a minor physical transformation, often gaining a deathly pallor and a cold, though not unnaturally so, touch. There may be other manifestations as well- an unnatural gleam in their eyes, the musty smell of grave dirt around them, etc.. They are forevermore treated as an outsider rather than as a humanoid (or whatever the sorcerer’s creature type was) for the purpose of spells and magical effects. Additionally, the death-touched sorcerer gains the following benefits.

 Darkvision out to 60’.
 Gain *Damage Reduction 10/magic(Su)* 
 Gain *Immunity* to critical hits, non-lethal damage, ability drain, physical ability score damage (Str, Dex, Con), and death from massive damage.
 No longer needs to breathe, eat or sleep
Unlike other outsiders, the sorcerer can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. 

Thoughts? Comments? Adjustments?


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## Fieari (Sep 13, 2004)

Neat lineage!  I'd only alter it to make it so that in addition to being more vulnerable to Good spells, that they also can't ever learn them or activate magic items that cast them.  The Speak With Dead thing is quite cool as well... that's something no one else can do, and yet doesn't look unbalanced at all to me.


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## Khaalis (Sep 14, 2004)

Fieari said:
			
		

> Fisrt session with my new group.  [snip]
> I'll keep you updated week to week if I can.




Thanks for the updates. Its nice to see some news of the class in action by others using it. Enjoy. Hope it keeps working out for you.


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## Khaalis (Sep 14, 2004)

FoxWander said:
			
		

> {snip} Anyway, all of this leads up to a lineage type you don't have yet. So here's my contribution-




Thanks for all the comments. I am always seeking more viewpoints on the build. Now onto your addition…  I like the premise and the work you have done on it, just have a few comments and questions.



> *The Death-Touched Lineage*
> Death-touched sorcerers are the descendents of those scarred by necromancy or a prolonged relationship with the undead (perhaps their mother was energy drained while they were in the womb?). This lineage gives them an affinity for the death, spirits and the undead.




Small question: Mind if play with grammar, spelling, etc?

Also, their seems to be a bit of cross-over in your ideas presented here. You state that a Death-touch sorcerer is one who has a relationship to lineage exposure to necromancy and undead.  Yet on the other hand you give them abilities relating more to a shamanic-religious philosophy of death and the afterlife, rather than undeath…

Is this an intentional crossover?  Are they more like a Sensitive or are they sorcerers with Necromantic power of the undead?  Currently the class seems to bounce back and forth and is a bit too unclear.




> *Benefit:* Death-touched sorcerers gain Knowledge (Religion and Arcana) and Move Silently as class skills. Their nature makes them naturally suited for esoteric thought as well as embodying the phrase ‘quiet as the grave’. They may also speak with the dead at will, but note: this *is not* as the spell of the same name. They are actually conversing with the spirit of the departed and not the “imprinted knowledge stored in the corpse”, and the spirit is under no compulsion to answer, whether truthfully or not; or indeed to even answer at all. The desire of the spirit to communicate is solely a function of diplomacy and its nature in life. Also unlike the spell, the corpse does not actually ‘speak’, rather the sorcerer receives any reply mentally. Thus any companions or observers hear only a one sided conversation. The sorcerer must either be within normal conversation range (about 20’ max) of the actual corpse (or a part of it), or he must be touching a person or object very dear to the dead creature in life. This *speak with the dead* ability gives them a +2 on any applicable Gather Information checks. Death-touched sorcerers may learn any Necromancy spell regardless of the spell list from which it comes.




Ok, following the above questions, I need to sort out some of the reasoning behind the abilities…

Why Knowledge (religion and arcana) and Move Silently? I assume… 
Knowledge (religion) = religious philosophy of the afterlife?
Knowledge (arcana) = innate understanding of necromancy?
Move Silently = confused on this one, but I assume it’s the reference to ‘quiet as the grave’?

1st the skill section of benefits should follow one of the following patterns:
* Add 2 Class Skills
* Add 1 Class Skill and 1 Language
* Add 1 Class Skill and +1 to a skill
* Add +2 to a skill (can also add a language)

2nd – I would lean toward some different skill choices depending on the orientation of the class.
If the class is a link to undeath and the negative plane, I would add Knowledge (planes) or specifically Knowledge (undead) as a class skill. I would then grant something such as a +1 to all Intimidate skill checks, or Move Silent as the second class skill.

I like the Speak with the Dead ability, but I am not sure how usable it is in game. The spell has set rules for how it works and why. The ability you list will only work on the DM’s approval considering that most cosmologies assume the spirit has left the world for other planes of existence, thus only making the ability usable on ghosts.
Personally, I would probably lean toward…

They may also speak with the spirits of the dead as per _speak with dead_, as a spell-like ability, a number of times per day equal to 3+ the sorcerer’s Charisma modifier. However, unlike the spell the information gathered is as if using the Gather Information skill at a +2 bonus to the skill check rather than the standard Will save.  Also, the death-touch sorcerer can communicate with any deceased regardless of someone else has used _speak with dead_ on the corpse.  The sorcerer can still use this ability on a corpse that has been deceased for any amount of time, but the body does not have to be mostly intact to be able to respond, as only the head is required to speak with the sorcerer. This ability, unlike the spell does let you actually speak to the departed spirit but its memories of life are vague at best and the spirit never remembers previous conversations through this ability just as with the spell. This ability still does not affect a corpse that has been turned into an undead creature.

However, if you are going for an Undead/Necromancy touched sorcerer rather than a shamanic spirit sorcerer, I would simply grant _speak with dead_ as a spell-like ability 3+Cha mod times per day.




> *Special Limitation:* Death-touched sorcerers are heavily influenced by their ancestry and suffer some of the vulnerabilities of that undead heritage. Whenever a death-touched sorcerer is the subject of a Cure Wounds spell they must make a Will save appropriate to the level of the spell or be damaged by the spell instead. The sorcerer may apply spell resistance, if any, and may attempt a second Will save to take only half damage. Conversely though, if the death-touched is the subject an Inflict Wounds spell they may be cured by it instead with a successful Will save. Due to their strong affinity to death and the spirit world they are left with a natural weakness toward good magic, receiving a –2 penalty to all saving throws against any spell, spell-like ability, or supernatural ability of the good descriptor or used by creatures of the good subtype.




Here you are making them vulnerable as undead – linking them to undead rather than the shamanic aspects.

I think the drawback is a bit steep and somewhat complex. If you want them resistant to magical healing I would give them an involuntary spell resistance versus all Conjuration (Healing) spells that scales as they grow more powerful toward the negative energy. Thus I would grant SR (Conjuration-healing) 10 + Sorcerer Level.  (Possibly 5+level if you don’t want to be too severe.)

Since this is a limitation, I would not add the ability to heal from _Inflict_ spells or it simply is not a limitation, but only changes the manner in which they heal.

Some other limitation considerations I would look at are as follows.

If this is based on a link to negative energy and undeath, I would do this as follows.

*Limitations:* A death-touched sorcerer is strongly affected by the negative energy of their lineage and thus may not be of any good alignment. They may also never learn any spell, spell-like ability or supernatural ability with either the Good or Conjuration (healing) descriptor or any other positive energy oriented ability. The sorcerer cannot use spell completion or spell trigger items that activate banned spells, as they just do not work for the sorcerer. Due to their strong affinity to magic of necromancy, they are left with a natural weakness toward magic of good and light, receiving a –2 penalty to all saving throws against any spell, spell-like ability, or supernatural ability of positive energy, thus those with the good, sacred and healing descriptors or used by creatures of the good subtype. This necromantic aura also prevents the sorcerer from benefiting from healing magic. The death-touched sorcerer gain Spell Resistance 10 + their Sorcerer Level versus all Conjuration (healing) spells, spell-like and supernatural abilities.  A death-touched sorcerer who becomes good or learns a prohibited spell, spell-like ability or supernatural ability may no longer gain levels as a sorcerer but retains all sorcerer abilities. Also, like a member of any other class, a death-touched sorcerer may be a multiclass character, but they face a special restriction. A death-touched sorcerer who gains a new class or template that involves racial or bloodline or heredity related abilities that are not specifically Necromantic (or Undead) oriented (for example Half-Dragon), may never again raise their sorcerer level and loses all sorcerer lineage abilities (including their bonus spells known and lineage based spell-like abilities, but not including weapon proficiencies and standard spells known).




> *Lineage Spells:* The death-touched sorcerer has a specific affinity with death and the undead and that manifests in a Lineage Spell List. These lineage spells may never be changed through spell swapping or spell evolution, but only through Innate Ability evolution. These lineage spells are gained as bonus known spells as soon as the sorcerer is able to cast spells of that spell level. The sorcerer gains the Death-Touched Lineage spell list.
> *Death-Touched Lineage Spell List:* _0–touch of fatigue; 1st-chill touch; 2nd-command undead; 3rd-vampiric touch; 4th-animate dead; 5th-magic jar; 6th-create undead; 7th-ethereal jaunt; 8th-create greater undead; 9th–energy drain_




This looks fine for an undead oriented sorcerer. However if going for the more benevolent shamanic orientation I would lean more toward…
*Death-Touched Lineage Spell List:* _0–disrupt undead; 1st-unseen servant; 2nd-see invisibility; 3rd-gaseous form; 4th-fear; 5th-contact other plane; 6th-undeath to death; 7th-ethereal jaunt; 8th-trap the soul; 9th–soul bind_




> *Lineage Abilities:* The death-touched sorcerer’s connection with the dead grows over time and they become more attune to the forces of the spirit world.
> -- At 8th level the death-touched sorcerer gains the ability to sense the undead, spirits, ethereal and incorporeal creatures within 60’ at will. This reduces the miss chance versus incorporeal creatures to 25%. The death-touched sorcerer also gains protection as if under a permanent _Death Ward_ spell.




What is the definition of “spirits”?
What information is gained when “sensed”? I assume that it is specific since it reduces miss chances.  However, how does merely sensing them reduce miss chances?
Additionally, I would have to note that the 2 of these powers combined is too much, especially with being at will/permanent.

If you are going the shamanic spirit version I would grant...

-- At 8th level the sorcerer gains a supernatural aura that may be activated as a move-equivalent action a number of times per day equal to 3+ the sorcerer’s Charisma modifier and acts as the _see invisibility_ spell (at the sorcerer’s class level) except that it detects undead as well as invisible and ethereal creatures by outlining them in a faint aura. This ability also reveals illusions used to hide or camouflage undead, and also reveals undead creatures who are simply hiding, concealed, or otherwise hard to see. This aura can be dispelled, but can be activated again as a move-equivalent action on the sorcerer’s next turn.  


If you are going the undead/negative energy aspect I would grant…

-- At 8th level the sorcerer gains a supernatural aura that may be activated as a move-equivalent action a number of times per day equal to 3+ the sorcerer’s Charisma modifier and acts as the _death ward_ spell (at the sorcerer’s class level) except that it also dispels negative levels and restores one experience level to a creature who has had a level drained. The drained level is restored only if the time since the creature lost the level is equal to or less than one day per caster level. A sorcerer who has a level restored by this effect has exactly the minimum number of experience points necessary to restore them to their previous level.  This aura can be dispelled, but can be activated again as a move-equivalent action on the sorcerer’s next turn.




> -- At 14th level the death-touched sorcerer's connection to their undead ancestry deepens such that they take on some of the traits of undeath. The sorcerer gains immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects), poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, and disease; as well as fatigue and exhaustion effects. However, this radical change to their very nature has a deep impact on their ability to connect with and understand the living. They suffer a –2 penalty to any skill checks involving interaction with those who are _not_ dead.




Here you go completely to the undead aspect again. However, the ability is VERY powerful. If the undead path is the one you are following see my comments for this below at 20th.

Instead of this ability, and want to still go the route of being undead, I would grant something along the following lines.

-- At 14th level the death-touched sorcerer gains the supernatural ability to change into the form of an undead spirit (and back again) a number of times per day equal to their Charisma modifier. This ability acts as the _ghostform_ spell (Tome & Blood).




> -- At 20th level, a death-touched sorcerer becomes so attune to their lineage that they gain the outsider type as well as the augmented and native subtypes. The sorcerer undergoes a minor physical transformation, often gaining a deathly pallor and a cold, though not unnaturally so, touch. There may be other manifestations as well- an unnatural gleam in their eyes, the musty smell of grave dirt around them, etc.. They are forevermore treated as an outsider rather than as a humanoid (or whatever the sorcerer’s creature type was) for the purpose of spells and magical effects. Additionally, the death-touched sorcerer gains the following benefits.
> 
> Darkvision out to 60’.
> Gain *Damage Reduction 10/magic(Su)*
> ...




Since at 14th level you seem to be going for a completely undead oriented conversion I am a bit confused by the Outsider conversion at the end.  I could see outsider if this was more a shamanic spirit totem style sorcerer, but one that is based on becoming more and more undead-like I would convert to undead at 20th.

-- At 20th level, a death-touched sorcerer becomes so attune to their lineage that they gain the undead type as well as the augmented subtypes. The sorcerer undergoes no noticeable physical transformation short of a slight loss in weight and a loss of pallor in the skin. They are forevermore treated as an undead rather than as a humanoid (or whatever the sorcerer’s creature type was) for the purpose of spells and magical effects. Additionally, the totem sorcerer gains the following benefits and hinderances.
•	The sorcerer’s Constitution score becomes zero, but current hit point totals do not change. However, when reduced to 0hp or below they are destroyed. They can also no longer be healed by Conjuration (healing) spells but negative energy (such as an _inflict_ spell) can heal them. They are also immune to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless) since they no longer have a constitution.  For Concentration skill checks, the sorcerer now uses their Charisma modifier. 
•	Darkvision out to 60’.
•	Gain immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects), poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, and death effects including from massive damage.
•	They are no longer subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), as well as to fatigue and exhaustion effects. They are also not affected by _raise dead, reincarnate, resurrection_ or _true resurrection_ spells or abilities. 
•	Undead do not breathe, eat, or sleep.


I look forward to your further replies. Like I said, its an interesting concept, just needs some ironing out.  Thoughts?


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## FoxWander (Sep 15, 2004)

Khaalis said:
			
		

> Thanks for all the comments. I am always seeking more viewpoints on the build. Now onto your addition…  I like the premise and the work you have done on it, just have a few comments and questions.
> 
> 
> 
> Small question: Mind if play with grammar, spelling, etc?



First off, thanks- glad to add something useful to the discussion. ANd feel free to adjust grammar, spelling, whatever.



			
				Khaalis said:
			
		

> Also, their seems to be a bit of cross-over in your ideas presented here. You state that a Death-touch sorcerer is one who has a relationship to lineage exposure to necromancy and undead.  Yet on the other hand you give them abilities relating more to a shamanic-religious philosophy of death and the afterlife, rather than undeath…
> 
> Is this an intentional crossover?  Are they more like a Sensitive or are they sorcerers with Necromantic power of the undead?  Currently the class seems to bounce back and forth and is a bit too unclear.



Well the smarmy answer to both your questions is "yes". I was going for both a Sensitive AND Necromantic power. The reason is because I'm basing this on the character in _Necroscope_, mixed with D&D magic. In _Necroscope_ the main power (and actually, the only power) of the character was his ability to speak with the dead. To hold a conversation with them exactly as if they were still alive. But he was one of the ONLY people on earth who COULD actually speak with the dead, and so most of the dead he talked to were very grateful for the conversation- because they had no one else to talk to. Being dead, they now existed in a purely mental state and had nothing better to do than contemplate the ideas and hobbies they had in life. But they had noone else to discuss these with until the necroscope came along. So the main character learned all kinds of interesting things. When he had a math problem at his university he found the grave of a dead professer and mathmatical genius to tutor him. In the years since he'd died the professor had contemplated math so much he had found solutions to supposedly unsolvable problems, and secrets that would allow someone to bend space/time. All of which he eagerly passed on to the necroscope character. And so went the rest of the book as villains tried to capture the necoscope to abuse his powers. But, as the necroscope was a good guy, very respectful of the dead 
and would often help them complete their unfinished tasks (like the kid in _Sixth Sense_)- the dead were very protective of the necroscope. Eventually this connection was such that they rose up from the grave a few times to help and defend him.

Of course, that cosmology doesn't exist in D&D, and it puts magic in the equation also. The main gist, and I suppose 'source of power', for the Death-Touched that I was going for was in this ability to freely communicate with the dead and the sorcerous powers that might evolve from that connection. Hopefully I'm making since here- I'm a little tired.




			
				Khaalis said:
			
		

> Ok, following the above questions, I need to sort out some of the reasoning behind the abilities…
> 
> Why Knowledge (religion and arcana) and Move Silently? I assume…
> Knowledge (religion) = religious philosophy of the afterlife?
> ...



To reflect more what I'm trying to portray, maybe the skills should be Knowledge (arcana and planes). Just drop Move Silently. That mostly stemmed from the idea of someone routinely sneaking into graveyards and such, and maybe a little of the "quiet as the dead" (and not "the grave") connection. Regardless, Move Silently isn't a core of the class as much as esoteric knowledge should be, so the two knowledge skills fit better.



			
				Khaalis said:
			
		

> I like the Speak with the Dead ability, but I am not sure how usable it is in game. The spell has set rules for how it works and why. The ability you list will only work on the DM’s approval considering that most cosmologies assume the spirit has left the world for other planes of existence, thus only making the ability usable on ghosts.
> Personally, I would probably lean toward…
> 
> They may also speak with the spirits of the dead as per _speak with dead_, as a spell-like ability, a number of times per day equal to 3+ the sorcerer’s Charisma modifier. However, unlike the spell the information gathered is as if using the Gather Information skill at a +2 bonus to the skill check rather than the standard Will save.  Also, the death-touch sorcerer can communicate with any deceased regardless of someone else has used _speak with dead_ on the corpse.  The sorcerer can still use this ability on a corpse that has been deceased for any amount of time, but the body does not have to be mostly intact to be able to respond, as only the head is required to speak with the sorcerer. This ability, unlike the spell does let you actually speak to the departed spirit but its memories of life are vague at best and the spirit never remembers previous conversations through this ability just as with the spell. This ability still does not affect a corpse that has been turned into an undead creature.
> ...



Your first suggestion is more what I'm going for. And it works better since you clarify it in more of a rules-sense than I did. The main thing is that, for the Death-Touched, it's as if the spirit of the deceased is right there with him, and he can converse with them freely. But he has no way to COMPEL them to answer, unless he resorts to the actual spell- in which case the rules of the spell apply. Although I would add that use of the spell would probably be considered insulting to the dead person and would have a negative effect on future conversations using the Death-Touch ability.



			
				Khaalis said:
			
		

> I think the drawback is a bit steep and somewhat complex. If you want them resistant to magical healing I would give them an involuntary spell resistance versus all Conjuration (Healing) spells that scales as they grow more powerful toward the negative energy. Thus I would grant SR (Conjuration-healing) 10 + Sorcerer Level.  (Possibly 5+level if you don’t want to be too severe.)
> 
> Since this is a limitation, I would not add the ability to heal from _Inflict_ spells or it simply is not a limitation, but only changes the manner in which they heal.



This is a good idea. I'd go with the 5+level SR. This could potentially be a very bad limitation, but since it also avoids the chance to be injured by healing spells, it should work.



			
				Khaalis said:
			
		

> Some other limitation considerations I would look at are as follows.
> 
> If this is based on a link to negative energy and undeath, I would do this as follows.
> 
> *Limitations:* A death-touched sorcerer is strongly affected by the negative energy of their lineage and thus may not be of any good alignment. They may also never learn any spell, spell-like ability or supernatural ability with either the Good or Conjuration (healing) descriptor or any other positive energy oriented ability. The sorcerer cannot use spell completion or spell trigger items that activate banned spells, as they just do not work for the sorcerer. Due to their strong affinity to magic of necromancy, they are left with a natural weakness toward magic of good and light, receiving a –2 penalty to all saving throws against any spell, spell-like ability, or supernatural ability of positive energy, thus those with the good, sacred and healing descriptors or used by creatures of the good subtype. This necromantic aura also prevents the sorcerer from benefiting from healing magic. The death-touched sorcerer gain Spell Resistance 10 + their Sorcerer Level versus all Conjuration (healing) spells, spell-like and supernatural abilities.  A death-touched sorcerer who becomes good or learns a prohibited spell, spell-like ability or supernatural ability may no longer gain levels as a sorcerer but retains all sorcerer abilities. Also, like a member of any other class, a death-touched sorcerer may be a multiclass character, but they face a special restriction. A death-touched sorcerer who gains a new class or template that involves racial or bloodline or heredity related abilities that are not specifically Necromantic (or Undead) oriented (for example Half-Dragon), may never again raise their sorcerer level and loses all sorcerer lineage abilities (including their bonus spells known and lineage based spell-like abilities, but not including weapon proficiencies and standard spells known).



I specifically wanted to avoid limiting the Death-Touched to non-good alignments. His connection to necromancy is involuntary and, depending on how he views it (a curse, a gift, a chance to champion the lost casues of the departed, etc.) shouldn't necessarily dictate whether he is good or evil. For the same reason, I don't like the idea of barring him from any spells. I would still keep the -2 versus Good spells. Whether he uses his gifts for good or not, he is still tainted by them. So good aligned Death-touched will have to live with being tragic heroes, cursed by the very powers they use to fight evil. Perhaps to play up this side more, as well as giving somewhat of an appropriate alignment limitation- we could add a rule the whatever his alignment, the death-touched detects as _evil_ to any alignment sensing effects. 



			
				Khaalis said:
			
		

> This looks fine for an undead oriented sorcerer. However if going for the more benevolent shamanic orientation I would lean more toward…
> *Death-Touched Lineage Spell List:* _0–disrupt undead; 1st-unseen servant; 2nd-see invisibility; 3rd-gaseous form; 4th-fear; 5th-contact other plane; 6th-undeath to death; 7th-ethereal jaunt; 8th-trap the soul; 9th–soul bind_



Hmm, I'm torn... both spell lists seem somewhat appropriate for the idea I was going for. The control/create undead spells in my list were a reflection of the 'willing to serve even to the point of reanimation' devotion the dead might have towards the sorcerer (from the _Necroscope_ idea). But the creation of the outright evil greater undead doesn't really fit the concept. (if an individual player wants to go that route they can choose the create undead spells for their spells known). And now I don't lik either of our choices for 8th and 9th level. How about this list..._0–disrupt undead; 1st-unseen servant; 2nd-command undead; 3rd-gaseous form; 4th-animate dead; 5th-contact other plane; 6th-undeath to death_ (I'm not sure about this one either, but can't think of something more appropriate)_; 7th-ethereal jaunt; 8th-polymorph any object; 9th–time stop_ The last two are to reflect the 'learning i]impossible[/i] secrets' idea from _Necroscope_ (in that the character basically learned a psionic teleportation power from the math professors quantum mathmatics theories) I don't know... can you think of better spells for 6, 8 and 9th level?



			
				Khaalis said:
			
		

> What is the definition of “spirits”?
> What information is gained when “sensed”? I assume that it is specific since it reduces miss chances.  However, how does merely sensing them reduce miss chances?
> Additionally, I would have to note that the 2 of these powers combined is too much, especially with being at will/permanent.
> 
> ...



Again, you've hit the idea I was going for, but with a more rules-fruiendly approach. And your right, gaining _Death Ward_ as well would be too much. How about an idea from the Dustmen faction of Planescape? They gained an ability called (I think) _Death Truce_. Basically, as long as they didn't attack the undead, the undead wouldn't attack them. This worked even against intelligent undead- they could not attack unless the Dustman character broke the truce first. However, "breaking the truce" could logically, and rightfully, include such actions as obviously aiding those who were attacking the undead creature, obvious preparations for an attack and such. The only immunity they had was being nuetral. Do you think the sight ability AND the truce would be too much at once? 



			
				Khaalis said:
			
		

> -- At 14th level the death-touched sorcerer gains the supernatural ability to change into the form of an undead spirit (and back again) a number of times per day equal to their Charisma modifier. This ability acts as the _ghostform_ spell (Tome & Blood).



I'll have to find my T&B but this looks like a good idea. And again, it has the convenience of simple rules-friendliness.  

As for the 20th level ability, I'm not sure where to go now. I was going for some kind of 'Aspect of Undeath' transformation without actually becomming ubdead. One, the traits and abilities of the Undead type are pretty powerful (specifically immunity to crits and fortitude saves), and two, I wanted them to still be living but so connected with death that they took on some of the strengths of undeath. That's why I went Outsider rather than Undead. 

Unfortunately, it's quite late now and I'm can't think straight enough to come up with more ideas for what I'm going for. If you, or anyone else, have something- I'm open to suggestions. One thing I had thought yesterday when I posted was a few less powers than I actually listed, but with the added effect that when the sorcerer died they would become an undead creature, probably a lich. 

Anyway, I'm going to sleep. Thanks for all the good ideas and suggestions. I'm sure we can work this into something that can be added to the awesome product you've already developed. 

ps- normally I would go back and correct the many typing errors I'm sure I made, but I'm way too tired for that... so please ignore any spelling problems.


----------



## Khaalis (Sep 16, 2004)

Ok, taking all of your comments for flavor and feel into account... how is this revision?

*DEATH-TOUCHED LINEAGE:* Death-touched sorcerers are a rare lineage of sorcerers born with an ability to bridge the gap between the living and the dead, gifted with the ability to speak directly to the spirits of the dead. This forms the sorcerer’s power in an innate affinity for magic related to the dead, but not necessarily a necromancer that is a specialist in the undead. This connection to the dead is involuntary and death-touched sorcerers may choose to harness the ability for their own ends, champion the causes of the dead or simply feel forced into a life of a tragic hero cursed by the powers they were born with.

*Benefit:* Death-touched sorcerers gain Knowledge (arcana and planes) as class skills. The sorcerer’s link to the spirits of the dead allows them to speak with those spirits to converse or even to glean information. This acts as a _speak with dead_ spell-like ability at will, with the following exceptions.  Unlike the spell, the death-touched sorcerer does not compel a spirit to answer. Instead, information gathered is as if using the Gather Information skill (at a +2 insight bonus to the skill check) rather than the standard Will save. Also, the death-touch sorcerer can communicate with any deceased spirit regardless of whether or not someone has used _speak with dead_ on the corpse. The sorcerer can still use this ability on a corpse that has been deceased for any amount of time, and the corpse still needs to be mostly intact to be able to respond, as it is the gate between the death-touched sorcerer and the spirit. This ability, unlike the spell, allows communication between the sorcerer and the departed spirit, not just lingering memories in the corpse. However, the spirit’s memories of life are vague at best due to their connection to their new plane of existence. The spirit always remembers previous conversations through this ability however, unlike the spell. This ability still does not affect a corpse that has been turned into an undead creature. Death-touched sorcerers may learn any spell, regardless of the spell list from which it comes from, that directly affects undead or incorporeal creatures.

*Special Limitation:* Death-touched sorcerers have an innate connection to the spirits of the dead and with many necromantic magics which leaves a tell-tale mark of negative energy on the sorcerer making it harder for them to heal by magical healing. The death-touched sorcerer gains an involuntary Spell Resistance equal to 5+ their sorcerer class level versus all Conjuration (healing) magic. By involuntary, this means that the Spell Resistance is always active and cannot be voluntarily dropped by the sorcerer. The sorcerer’s aura also always detects as necromantic regardless of the other powers they possess.  The death-touched sorcerer may also never learn any spell, spell-like ability or supernatural ability with the Good or Healing designator. They cannot use spell completion or spell trigger items that activate banned spells, as they just do not work for the sorcerer. Due to their strong affinity to magic of the spirit world, they are left with a natural weakness toward magic of good or positive origin, receiving a –2 penalty to all saving throws against any spell, spell-like ability, or supernatural ability of the good designator or used by creatures of the good subtype.  A death-touched sorcerer who learns a prohibited spell, spell-like ability or supernatural ability may no longer gain levels as a sorcerer as well as loses all sorcerer lineage abilities (including lineage bonus known spells and spell-like abilities, but not including weapon proficiencies and normal spells known), until they atone (see the _atonement_ spell description). Also, like a member of any other class, a death-touched sorcerer may be a multiclass character, but they face a special restriction. A death-touched sorcerer who gains a new class or template that involves racial or bloodline or heredity related abilities that are not specifically spirit oriented (for example Half-Dragon), may never again raise their sorcerer level and loses all sorcerer lineage abilities (including their bonus spells known and lineage based spell-like abilities, but not including weapon proficiencies and standard spells known).

*Lineage Spells:* The sorcerer has a specific affinity with the spirits of the dead and the magic they wield manifests in a Lineage Spell List. These lineage spells may never be changed through spell swapping or spell evolution, but only through Innate Ability evolution. These lineage spells are gained as bonus known spells as soon as the sorcerer is able to cast spells of that spell level. The sorcerer gains the Death-touched Lineage spell list.
*Death-touched Lineage Spell List:* _0–disrupt undead; 1st-unseen servant; 2nd-command undead; 3rd-gaseous form; 4th-planar ally, lesser; 5th-contact other plane; 6th-planar ally; 7th-ethereal jaunt; 8th-planar ally, greater; 9th-etherealness_

*Lineage Abilities:* The death-touch sorcerer’s connection with the spirits of the dead grows over time and they become more akin to those spirits and to the force of the spirit world.
……….At 8th level the sorcerer gains a supernatural ability that may be activated as a move-equivalent action a number of times per day equal to 3+ the sorcerer’s Charisma modifier and acts as a _see invisibility_ spell (at the sorcerer’s class level) except that it detects undead as well as invisible and ethereal creatures by outlining them in a faint aura. This ability also reveals illusions used to hide or camouflage undead, and also reveals undead creatures who are simply hiding, concealed, or otherwise hard to see. The aura also acts as a _sanctuary_ spell against these creatures. This aura can be dispelled, but can be activated again as a move-equivalent action on the sorcerer’s next turn and lasts for 10 minutes per sorcerer class level.

……….At 14th level the death-touched sorcerer begins to come closer to the spirits they have such a strong contact with and can become incorporeal once per day per point of Charisma modifier as a standard action. The sorcerer can remain incorporeal for up to 1 minute each time they transform. During this time, the sorcerer’s body fades into an immaterial form that retains their basic likeness. While incorporeal, the sorcerer gains the incorporeal subtype (see below). They gain a Fly speed equal to their base land speed with perfect maneuverability. Their material armor remains in place and continues to provide its armor bonus to AC and their material weapons also remain corporeal. The sorcerer can, in fact, use equipment normally, deriving benefits from items that enhance his capabilities; however, all their equipment remains material even when the sorcerer is incorporeal. Losing their physical form allows the sorcerer to more easily access their innate spell power, and they gain a +1 bonus on all save DCs for spells they cast while incorporeal.

…..In this form the death-touched sorcerer appears almost like a ghost wearing items of the material world. This doesn’t make their equipment more susceptible to attack (the normal rules for attended objects apply), but it does make it impossible for the sorcerer to enter or pass through solid objects while wearing solid equipment. If they drop their material equipment, they can pass through solid objects at will as described below.

_Incorporeal Subtype:_ An incorporeal sorcerer has no physical body. They can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. They are immune to all non-magical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, they have a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source (except for positive energy, negative energy, force effects, or attacks made with ghost touch weapons).
…..An incorporeal sorcerer has no natural armor bonus - and, unlike other incorporeal creatures, does not gain a deflection bonus from their Charisma modifier. An incorporeal sorcerer can enter or pass through solid objects (subject to the restrictions described previously), but must remain adjacent to the object’s exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than their own. They can sense the presence of creatures or objects within a square adjacent to their current location, but enemies have total concealment (50% miss chance) from an incorporeal sorcerer that is inside an object. To see farther from the object they are in and attack normally, the incorporeal sorcerer must emerge. An incorporeal sorcerer inside an object has total cover, but when they attack a creature outside the object they only have cover, so a creature outside with a readied action could strike at them as they attack. An incorporeal sorcerer cannot pass through a force effect.
…..An incorporeal sorcerer’s attacks pass through (ignore) natural armor, armor, and shields, although deflection bonuses and force effects work normally against them. They can pass through and operate in water as easily as they do in air. An incorporeal sorcerer cannot fall or take falling damage. They cannot make trip or grapple attacks, nor can they be tripped or grappled. In fact, they cannot take any physical action that would move or manipulate an opponent or its equipment, nor are they subject to such actions.
…..Incorporeal creatures have no weight and do not set off traps that are triggered by weight. An incorporeal creature moves silently and cannot be heard with Listen checks if it doesn’t wish to be. It has no Strength score, so its Dexterity modifier applies to both its melee attack rolls and its ranged attack rolls. Non-visual senses, such as scent and blindsight, are either ineffective or only partly effective with regard to incorporeal creatures. Incorporeal creatures have an innate sense of direction and can move at full speed even when they cannot see.

……….At 20th level the death-touched sorcerer becomes so attuned to the spirit world and the dead that they become a being of pure magic and complete connection to the spirit world, gaining the incorporeal subtype permanently. If the sorcerer desires, they can become corporeal once per day per point of Charisma modifier for up to 1 minute each time they transform, but they spend the rest of their time as an entity of magic, untethered by the physical world. The sorcerer’s worn equipment (including armor and weapons) becomes incorporeal with them. This has no effect on the equipment’s function, but now when the sorcerer is incorporeal, they can enter or pass through solid objects while wearing their equipment. The equipment automatically changes to incorporeal when the sorcerer is incorporeal, and it returns to corporeality when the sorcerer does. Unlike other incorporeal creatures, the sorcerer can be _raised, reincarnated, or resurrected_ just as other living creatures can be.


Thoughts?


----------



## FoxWander (Sep 16, 2004)

Wow, this looks really good. I only have comments on a few of your changes.



			
				Khaalis said:
			
		

> *Lineage Spells:* The sorcerer has a specific affinity with the spirits of the dead and the magic they wield manifests in a Lineage Spell List. These lineage spells may never be changed through spell swapping or spell evolution, but only through Innate Ability evolution. These lineage spells are gained as bonus known spells as soon as the sorcerer is able to cast spells of that spell level. The sorcerer gains the Death-touched Lineage spell list.
> *Death-touched Lineage Spell List:* _0–disrupt undead; 1st-unseen servant; 2nd-command undead; 3rd-gaseous form; 4th-planar ally, lesser; 5th-contact other plane; 6th-planar ally; 7th-ethereal jaunt; 8th-planar ally, greater; 9th-etherealness_



I think _Planar Ally_ is a good choice for the 6th and 8th level spells, however I still like _Animate dead_ as the 4th level spell. It's in keeping with the source idea (_Necroscope_), but also I think it still fits the character concept. Something that could be added to somewhere is that any undead the Death-touched intends to create must agree to the idea first using the speak with dead ability. Also I'd add that undead created by the sorcerer may still be communicated with via that ability.




			
				Khaalis said:
			
		

> At 14th level the death-touched sorcerer begins to come closer to the spirits they have such a strong contact with and can become incorporeal once per day per point of Charisma modifier as a standard action. The sorcerer can remain incorporeal for up to 1 minute each time they transform. During this time, the sorcerer’s body fades into an immaterial form that retains their basic likeness. While incorporeal, the sorcerer gains the incorporeal subtype (see below). They gain a Fly speed equal to their base land speed with perfect maneuverability. *Their material armor remains in place and continues to provide its armor bonus to AC and their material weapons also remain corporeal. The sorcerer can, in fact, use equipment normally, deriving benefits from items that enhance his capabilities; however, all their equipment remains material even when the sorcerer is incorporeal.* Losing their physical form allows the sorcerer to more easily access their innate spell power, and they gain a +1 bonus on all save DCs for spells they cast while incorporeal.
> 
> …..In this form the death-touched sorcerer appears almost like a ghost *wearing items of the material world.* This doesn’t make their equipment more susceptible to attack (the normal rules for attended objects apply), *but it does make it impossible for the sorcerer to enter or pass through solid objects while wearing solid equipment. If they drop their material equipment, they can pass through solid objects at will as described below.*



I found my Tome & Blood book- I think the _Ghostform_ spell you suggested before works just fine for this ability. Unless you had a specific balance point for including the bits about material armor and equipment that I highlighted above, I'd just drop it. It makes the ability unnecessarily complex, but mainly a ghost in solid armor just kinda looks goofy.  How about idea that all equipment and weapons aquire the _Ghost Touch_ special ability while the sorcerer is in _Ghostform_? That might be a bit too much "best of both worlds" but it does work well and without adding rules to the system.



> =Khaalis]At 20th level the death-touched sorcerer becomes so attuned to the spirit world and the dead that they become a being of pure magic and complete connection to the spirit world, gaining the incorporeal subtype permanently. If the sorcerer desires, they can become corporeal once per day per point of Charisma modifier for up to 1 minute each time they transform, but they spend the rest of their time as an entity of magic, untethered by the physical world. The sorcerer’s worn equipment (including armor and weapons) becomes incorporeal with them. This has no effect on the equipment’s function, but now when the sorcerer is incorporeal, they can enter or pass through solid objects while wearing their equipment. The equipment automatically changes to incorporeal when the sorcerer is incorporeal, and it returns to corporeality when the sorcerer does. Unlike other incorporeal creatures, the sorcerer can be _raised, reincarnated, or resurrected_ just as other living creatures can be.



I don't know about becoming a being of pure magic and permanently incorporeal. How about a variation on the Ghost template? From the SRD...



			
				SRD:Ghost template said:
			
		

> _Manifestation (Su)_: Every ghost has this ability. A ghost dwells on the Ethereal Plane and, as an ethereal creature, it cannot affect or be affected by anything in the material world. When a ghost manifests, it partly enters the Material Plane and becomes visible but incorporeal on the Material Plane. A manifested ghost can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons, or spells, with a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source. A manifested ghost can pass through solid objects at will, and its own attacks pass through armor. A manifested ghost always moves silently. A manifested ghost can strike with its touch attack or with a ghost touch weapon (see Ghostly Equipment, below). A manifested ghost remains partially on the Ethereal Plane, where is it not incorporeal. A manifested ghost can be attacked by opponents on either the Material Plane or the Ethereal Plane. The ghost’s incorporeality helps protect it from foes on the Material Plane, but not from foes on the Ethereal Plane.
> 
> When a spellcasting ghost is not manifested and is on the Ethereal Plane, its spells cannot affect targets on the Material Plane, but they work normally against ethereal targets. When a spellcasting ghost manifests, its spells continue to affect ethereal targets and can affect targets on the Material Plane normally unless the spells rely on touch. A manifested ghost’s touch spells don’t work on nonethereal targets.
> 
> A ghost has two home planes, the Material Plane and the Ethereal Plane. It is not considered extraplanar when on either of these planes.




The variation would be that the Death-touched remains a material creature but with the _Manifestation_ ability shifts him into the Ethereal plane- and then he's effectively a ghost manifesting on the Material plane. The ability would change like this (changes in *bold[/i])...



			
				Death-touched Manifestation said:
			
		


			A transcended Death-touched sorcerer dwells on the Material Plane and, as a material creature, it cannot affect or be affected by anything in the ethereal world. When a Death-touched manifests, it enters the
		
Click to expand...


*


			
				Death-touched Manifestation said:
			
		

> Etherial[/b] Plane and becomes visible but incorporeal on the Material Plane. A manifested ghost can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons, or spells, with a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source. A manifested ghost can pass through solid objects at will, and its own attacks pass through armor. A manifested ghost always moves silently. A manifested ghost can strike with its touch attack or with a ghost touch weapon *(while manifested, all the Death-touched sorcerer's equipment, armor and weapons gain the ghost touch special ability)*. A manifested ghost remains partially on the Ethereal Plane, where it is not incorporeal. A manifested ghost can be attacked by opponents on either the Material Plane or the Ethereal Plane. The ghost’s incorporeality helps protect it from foes on the Material Plane, but not from foes on the Ethereal Plane.
> 
> When *an ascended Death-touched sorcerer* is not manifested and is on the *Material* Plane, its spells cannot affect targets on the *Etherial* Plane, but they work normally against *material* targets. When a *Death-touched* manifests, its spells *affect* ethereal targets and can affect targets on the Material Plane normally unless the spells rely on touch. A manifested *sorcerer's* touch spells don’t work on nonethereal targets.
> 
> *An ascended Death-touched sorcerer* has two home planes, the Material Plane and the Ethereal Plane. It is not considered extraplanar when on either of these planes.



(I'm not sure if "ascended" is the best word to call the ability, I just used it to differentiate from a Death-touched _without_ this ability.)

The rest of the ghost template would be the same, except that the Death-touched probably should probably be immune to turning- as he's not undead. I would allow the sorcerer to choose 3 special abilities from the template's list. If _Malevolence_ is choosen, obviously it could only work when the sorcerer _Manifests_. (as per the above change to that ability)

What do you think?


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## Khaalis (Sep 17, 2004)

FoxWander said:
			
		

> I think _Planar Ally_ is a good choice for the 6th and 8th level spells




After thinking about your linking to the idea of having the spirits of the dead actually ‘help’ the sorcerer, this was the best thing I could come up with, especially since the spirits of the undead in 99% of D&D cosmologies are outer planar entities.



> however I still like _Animate dead_ as the 4th level spell. It's in keeping with the source idea (_Necroscope_), but also I think it still fits the character concept. Something that could be added to somewhere is that any undead the Death-touched intends to create must agree to the idea first using the speak with dead ability. Also I'd add that undead created by the sorcerer may still be communicated with via that ability.




The only problem I see with this is you might want to re-write the intro-descriptive paragraph to include the reference to the novel and explain better the reason they might use _Animate Dead_ when they really are against the idea of undead as the antithesis of death.

When working on the additional spell list, the addition of a spell cant really have “special requirements”.  The spell isn’t being gained with exceptions like the “speak with dead” class ability. Its just a bonus spell known, as is.  It would also seem to be an odd addition to the Limitations section when it has no real specific relation to the overall vision of the class.

Maybe I need more clarification on the ideal of why they would animate a corpse into a skeleton or zombie undead, yet they have a beef with greater undead…




> I found my Tome & Blood book- I think the _Ghostform_ spell you suggested before works just fine for this ability. Unless you had a specific balance point for including the bits about material armor and equipment that I highlighted above, I'd just drop it. It makes the ability unnecessarily complex, but mainly a ghost in solid armor just kinda looks goofy.  How about idea that all equipment and weapons aquire the _Ghost Touch_ special ability while the sorcerer is in _Ghostform_? That might be a bit too much "best of both worlds" but it does work well and without adding rules to the system.




The more I thought about it, the more I realized that Ghostform was a bit ‘broken’.  Obviously WotC agreed since it has yet to be reprinted to 3.5 in any source yet (unless it makes it to Complete Arcane but I doubt it).  So what I did, is took the idea one more step and borrowed the same basic idea from a source that IS 3.5 rules based….the “PSION UNCARNATE”.  This way I didn’t have to really make up rules, just a few minor tweaks to fit not being a PrC and it was already done for us.




> I don't know about becoming a being of pure magic and permanently incorporeal. How about a variation on the Ghost template? From the SRD...
> The variation would be that the Death-touched remains a material creature but with the _Manifestation_ ability shifts him into the Ethereal plane- and then he's effectively a ghost manifesting on the Material plane. The ability would change like this (changes in *bold[/i])...
> The rest of the ghost template would be the same, except that the Death-touched probably should probably be immune to turning- as he's not undead. I would allow the sorcerer to choose 3 special abilities from the template's list. If Malevolence is choosen, obviously it could only work when the sorcerer Manifests. (as per the above change to that ability)*



*

This again is the final expanded ability of the “Psion Uncarnate”.  It is a balanced high end power that mimics what you stated you were looking for. Undead-like quality without being an actual undead.  

The problems with the Ghost Template are that creature’s type Does changes to undead, as well as gaining the Incorporeal subtype.  THAT is far too much.  Also, the fact that the character is no longer of the material world, becoming a creature of the Ethereal Plane. Add to this, the ghost also gain a handful of special abilities above and beyond those gained by the Undead and Incorporeal type/subtype.  

While your modification isn’t too bad, it is a bit cumbersome to work with as a warping of the existing ability. It is also only a temporary ability, rather than the end metamorphosis style ability that most of the 20th level sorcerers gain. Personally I find it much easier to attach a type/subtype than to make such a vast modification. The other issue I have is that it breaks a fundamental rule – giving the sorcerer 2 home planes of existence and making a planar creature as well as undead – which is far too much. The Ghost template is VERY powerful.  However, if you start going through and modifying the entire template to a custom template, you are still basically adding a effectively a +3 to +5 Level Adjustment Template as a single level ability.

You can use whichever you like, but my personal preference is for the Uncarnate ability. It works more smoothly in my opinion and seems more like a magical transformation that taking a part of the Ghost’s template.

Thoughts?*


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## FoxWander (Sep 19, 2004)

Wow, Khaalis, thanks for working on this with me. Of course, I have a few more tweaks to the idea. Rather than do the quote-then-comment game, I’ll just put all my comments here then post a whole new write up at the end. 

You asked for more background on the concept. Well it’s been quite awhile since I read _Necroscope_ so my ideas here may not really mesh with the character in the book (btw, for reference purposes I felt compelled to find my copy of the book- the character’s name is Harry Keough, though he’s just as often called “the necroscope”. His ability to speak with the dead is called “deadspeak”. This may be a good term for the death-touched communication ability, but since I’m not trying to make an exact ‘necroscope’ here, that may be inappropriate, or just smack of plagiarism.) The idea I have is just as much influenced by _The Sixth Sense_ if you want to just skip the book references. The core of it is the innate ability to speak with the dead- combined with innate sorcerous necromantic spells and you get the concept I see as the Death-touched. That’s why I love your lineage sorcerer idea. The vanilla WOTC sorcerer just doesn’t hint at what kind of _person_ a sorcerer must be. They’re born with *innate* magical powers! No long apprenticeship or book studying. No praying at the feet of the gods. Just magic- literally at their fingertips. That power HAS to shape who they are. So what kind of person comes from inborn power to speak with and summon the dead? A very different person than someone born with _lightning bolt_ or _fly_ in their blood, I should think. It all boils down to what they DO with that power though- just as it does with all things. So that’s why you’ll see I’ve tried to avoid any predefining of the death-touched sorcerer’s relationship to the dead, or the undead, in my write-up below. That’s for the player to decide. So if I gave the impression they viewed undead as the antithesis of the dead or automatically felt cursed by their powers, I apologize for not being clearer on my view of the concept. My calling them a ‘tragic hero’ was in reference to the always _detecting_ as evil and negatives versus _good_ limitations and how that would affect a good-aligned death-touched sorcerer. 

This is also why I think _animate dead_ works for the spell list. But part of that is colored by the original 3.0 write up for skeletons and zombies, when simple _animated_ dead were *neutral* aligned. This made perfect sense to me- as mindless animated creatures, how could they be “evil”? This was changed in 3.5, but I kept it as a house rule. So that’s why I saw a distinction between _animate dead_ and _create (greater) undead_. The _create_ spells make straight up EVIL creatures. In _Necroscope_, the dead rose from their graves of their own accord simple from their love of and desire to protect Harry Keough- thus “evilness” didn’t seem to fit. But, all undead are evil now in D&D (regardless of how much that may or may not make sense) so that is neither here nor there. I had thought about adding an ability to the *Benefit* section to the effect that any undead created by the death-touched sorcerer were not automatically evil, but rather matched the alignment of the sorcerer. But that added more awkward rules, clashed somewhat with the “always detect as evil” taint of the lineage and would most likely be just too much for benefits. So instead I decided to add a choice to the spell list. I know this doesn’t really fit with the other lineage sorcerers, but I think it should work out fine. Especially since the spell levels match up in all cases. The choice deals with undead vs. planar allies, as you’ll see below.

As for the _ghostform_ spell vs. the Psion Uncarnate class abilities. I still think simply referencing the _ghostform_ spell should suffice and still be balanced, and here’s why. First of, you’re correct that the spell is probably overpowered for a 5th level spell, but it’s probably spot on for a 6th level spell. As a 6th level spell a sorcerer would be able to know it at 12th level. Since we’re talking about gaining it as a 14th level lineage ability, there shouldn’t be a balance issue. Second, the spell works almost exactly as the Psion Uncarnate _Shed body_ ability combined with the _Assume equipment_ ability gained at the 3rd level of that PrC. Looking at the requirements for becoming a Psion Uncarnate, the PrC can be taken as early as 5th level. So, a Psion Uncarnate can essentially replicate the _ghostform_ spell as an 8th level character. Again, since the lineage ability is gained at 14th level, there shouldn’t be a balance issue. 

Finally, you bring up a good point about the awkwardness of the changes I proposed to the *Ghost* template, and I had missed that the *Undead* type was gained as well. So awkward + way too powerful = scratch that idea. But I still like the ghostly concept, so I’ve taken a slightly different approach below.

OK, that’s enough talking, err, typing. (And don’t I make a lot more sense when I’m NOT falling asleep at the keyboard!  ) And now, yet another version of …


*DEATH-TOUCHED LINEAGE:* Death-touched sorcerers are a rare lineage of sorcerers born with an ability to bridge the gap between the living and the dead, gifted with the ability to speak directly to the spirits of the dead. This forms the sorcerer’s power in an innate affinity for magic related to the dead, but not necessarily a necromancer that is a specialist in the undead. This connection to the dead is involuntary and death-touched sorcerers may choose to harness the ability for their own ends- be they good, evil or some shade between. Harry Keough, of Brian Lumley’s _Necroscope_ books, or Cole Sear, from the movie _The Sixth Sense_ would be death-touched sorcerers were they to exist in the D&Dverse.

*Benefit:* Death-touched sorcerers gain Knowledge (arcana and planes) as class skills. The sorcerer’s link to the spirits of the dead allows them to speak with those spirits to converse or even to glean information. This acts as a _speak with dead_ spell-like ability at will, with the following exceptions. Unlike the spell, the death-touched sorcerer does not compel a spirit to answer. Instead, information gathered is as if using the Gather Information skill (at a +2 insight bonus to the skill check) rather than the standard Will save. Also, the death-touch sorcerer can communicate with any deceased spirit regardless of whether or not someone has used _speak with dead_ on the corpse. The sorcerer can still use this ability on a subject that has been deceased for any amount of time, however the sorcerer does not need a “mostly intact” corpse to communicate. This ability, unlike the spell, allows communication between the sorcerer and the departed spirit, not just “imprinted knowledge stored in the corpse”. However, a focus for communication is still required- this can be the corpse of the subject, a part of it, or an object _very dear_ to the subject in life. Also, the spirit always remembers previous conversations through this ability, unlike the spell. This ability still does not affect a corpse that has been turned into an undead creature, unless the undead was created by the sorcerer. Death-touched sorcerers may learn any spell, regardless of the spell list from which it comes from, that directly affects undead or incorporeal creatures.

*Special Limitation:* Death-touched sorcerers have an innate connection to the spirits of the dead and with many necromantic magics. This leaves a tell-tale mark of negative energy on the sorcerer making it harder for them to heal by magical healing. The death-touched sorcerer gains an involuntary Spell Resistance equal to 5+ their sorcerer class level versus all Conjuration (healing) magic. By involuntary, this means that the Spell Resistance is always active and cannot be voluntarily dropped by the sorcerer. The sorcerer’s aura also always detects as necromantic regardless of the other powers they possess. The death-touched sorcerer may also never learn any spell, spell-like ability or supernatural ability with the Good or Healing designator. They cannot use spell completion or spell trigger items that activate banned spells, as they just do not work for the sorcerer. Due to their strong affinity to magic of the spirit world, they are left with a natural weakness toward magic of good or positive origin, receiving a –2 penalty to all saving throws against any spell, spell-like ability, or supernatural ability of the good designator or used by creatures of the good subtype. A death-touched sorcerer who learns a prohibited spell, spell-like ability or supernatural ability may no longer gain levels as a sorcerer as well as loses all sorcerer lineage abilities (including lineage bonus known spells and spell-like abilities, but not including weapon proficiencies and normal spells known), until they atone (see the atonement spell description). Also, like a member of any other class, a death-touched sorcerer may be a multiclass character, but they face a special restriction. A death-touched sorcerer who gains a new class or template that involves racial or bloodline or heredity related abilities that are not specifically spirit oriented (for example Half-Dragon), may never again raise their sorcerer level and loses all sorcerer lineage abilities (including their bonus spells known and lineage based spell-like abilities, but not including weapon proficiencies and standard spells known).

*Lineage Spells:* The sorcerer has a specific affinity with the spirits of the dead and the magic they wield manifests in a Lineage Spell List. These lineage spells may never be changed through spell swapping or spell evolution, but only through Innate Ability evolution. These lineage spells are gained as bonus known spells as soon as the sorcerer is able to cast spells of that spell level. The sorcerer gains the Death-touched Lineage spell list. _(note: at levels 4, 6 and 8 two spells are listed, depending on the sorcerer’s alignment one or the other is gained- not both! Neutral aligned sorcerer’s may choose which one upon gaining 4th level spells, they then gain the matching 6th and 8th level spells when appropriate.)_
Death-touched Lineage Spell List: _0–disrupt undead; 1st-unseen servant; 2nd-command undead; 3rd-gaseous form; 4th-planar ally, lesser or animate dead; 5th-contact other plane; 6th-planar ally or create undead; 7th-ethereal jaunt; 8th-planar ally, greater or create greater undead; 9th-etherealness_

*Lineage Abilities:* The death-touch sorcerer’s connection with the spirits of the dead grows over time and they become more akin to those spirits and to the force of the spirit world.

-- At 8th level the sorcerer gains a supernatural ability that may be activated as a move-equivalent action a number of times per day equal to 3+ the sorcerer’s Charisma modifier and acts as a see invisibility spell (at the sorcerer’s class level) except that it detects undead as well as invisible and ethereal creatures by outlining them in a faint aura. This ability also reveals illusions used to hide or camouflage undead, and also reveals undead creatures who are simply hiding, concealed, or otherwise hard to see. The aura also acts as a sanctuary spell against these creatures. This aura can be dispelled, but can be activated again as a move-equivalent action on the sorcerer’s next turn and lasts for 10 minutes per sorcerer class level.

-- At 14th level the death-touched sorcerer begins to come closer to the spirits they have such a strong contact with and can become incorporeal once per day per point of Charisma modifier as a standard action. This ability functions exactly as the _Ghostform_ spell from _Tome and Blood_. Losing their physical form allows the sorcerer to more easily access their innate spell power, and they gain a +1 bonus on all save DCs for spells they cast while incorporeal.

-- At 20th level the death-touched sorcerer becomes so attuned to the spirit world and the dead that they transcend their mortal form and complete their connection to the spirit world, gaining the outsider type, as well as the augmented and native subtypes. The sorcerer undergoes a minor physical transformation usually to the skin or eyes- such as a death-like pallor, an unusually cold touch or eyes that are completely white. They are forevermore treated as an outsider rather than as a humanoid (or whatever the sorcerer’s creature type was) for the purpose of spells and magical effects. Additionally, the sorcerer gains the following benefits.

Darkvision out to 60’
Gain *Damage Reduction (Su):* Grants damage reduction 10/magic, which allows them to ignore the first 10 points of damage from any attack made by a non-magical weapon or by any natural attack made by a creature that doesn’t have similar damage reduction
No longer needs to eat or sleep, however the sorcerer still breathes
The ability to take on, or drop, the *Ghost template* at will, with the following modifications:
1) Type does not become undead while a ghost
2) Hit dice and hit points do not change
3) Gain the _manifestation_ special attack and two other special attacks chosen when this ability is first gained (once chosen, these two special attacks cannot be changed)
4) Do not gain _turn resistance_, the sorcerer is not undead and therefore cannot be turned​Unlike other outsiders, the sorcerer can be _raised, reincarnated, or resurrected _just as other living creatures can be.

The obligatory call for- Thoughts?


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## Khaalis (Sep 20, 2004)

No problem on working on the ideas, it’s the best way to hash out something close to balanced.  As for the general concept, I will state that what I put together is attempting to remain to 3.5 SRD standards and that influences a lot of my comments and opinions on something like this.



> So if I gave the impression they viewed undead as the antithesis of the dead or automatically felt cursed by their powers, I apologize for not being clearer on my view of the concept. My calling them a ‘tragic hero’ was in reference to the always _detecting_ as evil and negatives versus _good_ limitations and how that would affect a good-aligned death-touched sorcerer.




Sorry for the misinterpretation. I think I understand now, the lineage is simply related to the ability to speak with the dead as the primary and also throwing in some bit of linked necromantic magic and becoming something akin to a “spirit” themselves. Is that about right?




> This is also why I think _animate dead_ works for the spell list. But part of that is colored by the original 3.0 write up for skeletons and zombies, when simple _animated_ dead were *neutral* aligned. This made perfect sense to me- as mindless animated creatures, how could they be “evil”? This was changed in 3.5, but I kept it as a house rule. So that’s why I saw a distinction between _animate dead_ and _create (greater) undead_. The _create_ spells make straight up EVIL creatures. In _Necroscope_, the dead rose from their graves of their own accord simple from their love of and desire to protect Harry Keough- thus “evilness” didn’t seem to fit. But, all undead are evil now in D&D (regardless of how much that may or may not make sense) so that is neither here nor there. I had thought about adding an ability to the *Benefit* section to the effect that any undead created by the death-touched sorcerer were not automatically evil, but rather matched the alignment of the sorcerer. But that added more awkward rules, clashed somewhat with the “always detect as evil” taint of the lineage and would most likely be just too much for benefits. So instead I decided to add a choice to the spell list. I know this doesn’t really fit with the other lineage sorcerers, but I think it should work out fine. Especially since the spell levels match up in all cases. The choice deals with undead vs. planar allies, as you’ll see below.




I will look into some other options, as I have seen some rules for something that might work as a related benefit, basically a “spirit” as a familiar type.  As for animate dead, I feel that if you want the class to be open to good-aligned sorcerers as well, I would not include this ability. 3.5 went back to “lesser” undead being evil, because of two reasons.
1) In D&D, these undead instinctively seek to destroy the living.
2) The act of creating undead, even as simple as animating a corpse is seen as an evil act. 
There are a few forms of undead that are “good” but they are generally very powerful.

Personally I think the choice of the use/animation/creation of undead should be left to personal choice of the sorcerer thus allowing more freedom of alignment. Otherwise the minimum restriction must be that no death-touched sorcerer can be good-aligned.



> As for the _ghostform_ spell vs. the Psion Uncarnate class abilities. I still think simply referencing the _ghostform_ spell should suffice and still be balanced, and here’s why. First of, you’re correct that the spell is probably overpowered for a 5th level spell, but it’s probably spot on for a 6th level spell. As a 6th level spell a sorcerer would be able to know it at 12th level. Since we’re talking about gaining it as a 14th level lineage ability, there shouldn’t be a balance issue. Second, the spell works almost exactly as the Psion Uncarnate _Shed body_ ability combined with the _Assume equipment_ ability gained at the 3rd level of that PrC. Looking at the requirements for becoming a Psion Uncarnate, the PrC can be taken as early as 5th level. So, a Psion Uncarnate can essentially replicate the _ghostform_ spell as an 8th level character. Again, since the lineage ability is gained at 14th level, there shouldn’t be a balance issue.




The only core (major) issue I have with _ghostform_ is that it is not open source SRD. The Psion Uncarnate is. Technically I cannot include _ghostform_ (even the name) anywhere in the document.  What I would look at is combining _Shed body_ with the _Assume equipment_ ability as a single ability.




> *Benefit:*
> this can be the corpse of the subject, a part of it, or an object _very dear_ to the subject in life.




Not sure I like this as it is far too subjective and leaves a bit too much up to the DM to make this a viable condition.



> *Lineage Spells:*
> _(note: at levels 4, 6 and 8 two spells are listed, depending on the sorcerer’s alignment one or the other is gained- not both! Neutral aligned sorcerer’s may choose which one upon gaining 4th level spells, they then gain the matching 6th and 8th level spells when appropriate.)_
> Death-touched Lineage Spell List: _0–disrupt undead; 1st-unseen servant; 2nd-command undead; 3rd-gaseous form; 4th-planar ally, lesser or animate dead; 5th-contact other plane; 6th-planar ally or create undead; 7th-ethereal jaunt; 8th-planar ally, greater or create greater undead; 9th-etherealness_




Though this breaks the template it is a bit necessary if you must draw a line between good and ‘other’ death-touched sorcerers.



> *Lineage Abilities:*
> -- At 20th level ...
> [*]No longer needs to eat or sleep, however the sorcerer still breathes
> [*]The ability to take on, or drop, the *Ghost template* at will, with the following modifications:[/list]
> ...




I still think the use of the template is far too powerful, most certainly more powerful than any other sorcerer. The “Ghost Template” ability technically only fills one slot of the ability template but it grants a slew of other abilities.

Personally, in my opinion I think it would be best to make them a Native Outsider but instead of the Incorporeal Subtype or the Ghost Template heavily modified, simply give them the Incorporeality special ability (per the SRD) at will but this does not allow them to carry equipment with them.  That or allowing the Uncarnate _Shed body_ and _Assume equipment_ ability from 14 at will instead of limited uses per day.



> *INCORPOREALITY*
> Spectres, wraiths, and a few other creatures lack physical bodies. Such creatures are insubstantial and can’t be touched by nonmagical matter or energy. Likewise, they cannot manipulate objects or exert physical force on objects. However, incorporeal beings have a tangible presence that sometimes seems like a physical attack against a corporeal creature.
> Incorporeal creatures are present on the same plane as the characters, and characters have some chance to affect them.
> Incorporeal creatures can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, by magic weapons, or by spells, spell-like effects, or supernatural effects. They are immune to all nonmagical attack forms. They are not burned by normal fires, affected by natural cold, or harmed by mundane acids.
> ...




Thoughts again?


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## Khaalis (Sep 21, 2004)

*UPDATE

SORCERER REVISION UPDATE 9.21*

The Lineage Sorcerer has been updated with the alternate versions of the Unearthed Arcana's Battle Sorcerer template as discussed here: http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=100405.


The PDF version of the work-in-progress to date is located at:
http://home.rochester.rr.com/khaalisrealm/



Old versions available by request (due to website size limitations).
SORCERER REVISION UPDATE 4.04
SORCERER REVISION UPDATE 7.04


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## GreyGremlin (Sep 21, 2004)

*Broken Link*

Just so you know, the link on your page returns a 404 error.  You *might*  consider removing all the spaces from the filename.


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## Khaalis (Sep 21, 2004)

Actually I shouldnt update pages at my equivalent of Midnight. I need to relink the actual link to the file...  DOH!

The link should now work fine. Thanks for the catch!


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## solomoncane (Sep 23, 2004)

*Congrats & a suggestion for the PDF*

To Khaalis & everyone else on this project--great work.
Khaalis - on the next version of the PDF, could you drop in the spells per day and spells known charts from the SRD.  It would make the document a complete reference for the sorcerer & variants.
Thanks.


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## Khaalis (Sep 23, 2004)

solomoncane said:
			
		

> To Khaalis & everyone else on this project--great work.
> Khaalis - on the next version of the PDF, could you drop in the spells per day and spells known charts from the SRD.  It would make the document a complete reference for the sorcerer & variants.
> Thanks.




Thanks for the suggestion and the compliments, I wasn't sure people would want the extra space taken up by the Spells Per Day table.  There is no need for the spells known table as it exists however, as the variant uses a different acquisition method that doesn't rely on the table (2 spells per level, only 1 in highest spell level).


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## dragoncc (Sep 25, 2004)

Excellent work Khaalis!  Been following this thread off & on while my DM & I work on converting his homeworld into 3.5 & I must say this is good stuff  

A note on the work you & FoxWander have been working on: there is a "companion spirit" in the mage class in _The Elements of Magic_ (original one not the revised one) that would probably fit the bill for your spirit familiar as that's the similar one we developed for our familiar system period - really what we feel familiars are supposed to be but that's another thread 

Anyway, keep up the good work & I'll let you know how our first sorcerer does.

Thanks for your (& everyone else's) hard work!


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## Khaalis (Sep 25, 2004)

dragoncc said:
			
		

> Excellent work Khaalis!  Been following this thread off & on while my DM & I work on converting his homeworld into 3.5 & I must say this is good stuff
> 
> A note on the work you & FoxWander have been working on: there is a "companion spirit" in the mage class in _The Elements of Magic_ (original one not the revised one) that would probably fit the bill for your spirit familiar as that's the similar one we developed for our familiar system period - really what we feel familiars are supposed to be but that's another thread
> 
> ...




Thanks for the compliments. I am surprised at how much support the thread and the design have gotten. I am always glad to continue working on it and tweaking it to better create a sorcerer that makes more sense to the masses.

Is _The Elements of Magic_ OGL? Could you share some of the information on the specific ability? If not how much is acquisition of the old product or is it even still available?


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## dragoncc (Sep 25, 2004)

Khaalis said:
			
		

> Is _The Elements of Magic_ OGL? Could you share some of the information on the specific ability? If not how much is acquisition of the old product or is it even still available?




Not OGL as far as I remember, but a quick google proved fruitful as far as availability & pricing.  Looks like it's still available & on sale from RPGNow:

http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=535

Basically it's a familiar that is a spirit (as traditional familiars are described) as opposed to a "normal" D&D animal with spirit-related conferred abilities where the usual ones don't fit.  As general as I can get without revealing specifics 

The one thing I have noticed is that they did not include that version in the _Elements of Magic revised edition _ (they simplified it into something totally different), so you might be able to contact the author Matt Blakeley to see if he would let you use it in your class.


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## Angel Tarragon (Sep 25, 2004)

Thanks for the link to the download on your page Khaalis!


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## Khaalis (Sep 28, 2004)

Any further comments on the Death-touched, FoxWander?


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## FoxWander (Sep 28, 2004)

Khaalis said:
			
		

> Any further comments on the Death-touched, FoxWander?



Sorry, I went on a mini-vacation and haven't been around a computer.

I think I agree with most of your points above. I unfortunately tend toward the slightly unbalanced when designing new stuff. That's why I appreciate your comments.

I wish there was some balanced way to allow a good-aligned Death-touched to animate/summon good-aligned undead. I think calling a good-aligned ghost to help the sorcerer would be a perfect ability for this lineage. Perhaps gaining a spirit familiar, like the Ancestor Spirit Shaman would work. Here's that write-up for reference...


			
				Khaalis- Ancestor Spirit Shaman said:
			
		

> At 14th level the ancestor shaman sorcerer gains the ability to summon an ancestral spirit from the astral plane that takes the form of a shadow, an undead shade. Unlike a normal shadow, this shadow spirit’s alignment matches that of the sorcerer, and the creature cannot create spawn. The summoned shadow spirit cannot be turned, rebuked, or commanded by any third party. This shadow spirit serves as a companion to the sorcerer and can communicate intelligibly with the sorcerer. Every third level gained by the sorcerer adds +2 HD (and the requisite base attack and base save bonus increases) to their shadow spirit companion. If a shadow spirit companion is destroyed, or the sorcerer chooses to dismiss it, the sorcerer must attempt a DC 15 Fortitude save. If the saving throw 6
> fails, the sorcerer loses 200 experience points per sorcerer level. A successful saving throw reduces the loss by half, to 100 XP per sorcerer class level. The sorcerer’s XP total can never go below 0 as the result of a shadow spirit’s dismissal or destruction. A destroyed or dismissed shadow spirit companion cannot be replaced for 30 days



I think that would work quite well for the Death-touched 14th level ability as well.

Then for the 20th level lineage ability, drop the Ghost template ability I had and replace it with the ability to go _Incorporeal_ at will, along with their equipment. They'd also have the +1 bonus to the save DCs of their spells, for being closer to the source of thier powers while incorporeal. And for a little more "ghostly" feel to this ability, I'd like to add that if the sorcerer should cast _Magic Jar_ while incorporeal they do not need the gem or crystal focus for the spell. Instead they need to succeed at a touch attack where they simply merge with the body of the possessed if the _Magic jar_ spell is successful. (Sorry, I just really like the idea of the sorcerer becoming very akin to a ghost as part of the transformation.  )

Everything else I'd keep the same as I previously posted. I know the two spell choices in the spell list breaks with the template, but it's the best way I can think to allow good or evil Death-touched. And I really don't like limiting the class to just non-good alignments. Granted, I can't see too many people playing a good-aligned version of this class, but I'd like to keep the option there. We could also avoid the issue by just dropping the _Create undead_ and _Planar Ally_ spells off the list and leaving those types of spells to the choice of the players for their normal spell lists-  but then we're back to, I'm not sure what spells really fit for the lineage at 4th, 6th and 8th levels. *Open call to anyone reading this: Have any suggetions for appropriate spells based on the lineage concept as developed so far?* 

Optionally, back to what I mentioned above, do you think allowing the creation of undead that match the alignment of the sorcerer would create any problems? Rules-wise I don't see it as unbalancing by itself. Nothing else would change about the undead, except for its alignment. So it would still be affected by all the same spells in the same way, could still be turned/rebuked, etc.. The only problem really comes from the roleplaying side, which makes it not really a problem but a great roleplaying oppurtunity. How does the good sorcerer reconcile the creation of undead, even though they serve willingly and are of the same alignment he is?  How do intelligent, good undead deal with their inherently "evil" powers? There are all kinds of great concepts in the idea of creating good undead that would have to be dealt with, but that could be a problem in itself- does the idea add "too much" to the game for just being a variant core class? That may be the problem more than any potential "rules issues" with the alignment of the undead themselves. 

So what does anyone else following this thread think? And of course, to Khallis, about the lineage ability ideas... Thoughts?


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## Evilhalfling (Sep 29, 2004)

Well Foxwarder I still lurk this thread after getting such great feedback from Kaalis on the Totem Shaman socerer, who I am sorry to say died last session, he was incapacitated in battle, and dropped into a bag of holding by his friends, with a NPC in the shape of a goldfinch.  When they both died of suffication, the goldfinch became a man and the bag was overloaded and both were lost forever. 

I tried looking up the repose domain on the SRD 
Repose Domain Spells
1 Deathwatch
2 Gentle repose
3 Speak with dead
4 Death ward
5 Slay living
6 Undeath to death
7 Destruction
8 Surelife
9 Wail of the banshee

but it seems nothing like what you intended - Create Undead to create good aligned undead has the problem that normally the spell forces the caster to compel the undead, they are not automatically controlled.  Having these undead start as friendly would be a major benfit. 
So my official recommendation is to add good aligned undead to the planar ally options, this gives you helpful undead but with established rules.


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## Evilhalfling (Sep 29, 2004)

Well Foxwarder I still lurk this thread after getting such great feedback from Kaalis on the Totem Shaman socerer, who I am sorry to say died last session, he was incapacitated in battle, and dropped into a bag of holding by his friends, with a NPC in the shape of a goldfinch.  When they both died of suffication, the goldfinch became a man and the bag was overloaded and both were lost forever. 

I tried looking up the repose domain on the SRD 
Repose Domain Spells
1 Deathwatch
2 Gentle repose
3 Speak with dead
4 Death ward
5 Slay living
6 Undeath to death
7 Destruction
8 Surelife
9 Wail of the banshee

but it seems nothing like what you intended - Create Undead to create good aligned undead has the problem that normally the spell forces the caster to compel the undead, they are not automatically controlled.  Having these undead start as friendly would be a major benfit. 
So my official recommendation is to add good aligned undead to the planar ally options, this gives you helpful undead but with established rules.


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## Khaalis (Sep 30, 2004)

If we give Incorporeality “at will” for 20th, I think that is all they should get as it is a VERY powerful ability.  If you were to limit it to say 3+Cha Mod uses per day, I would consider giving them a Spell-Like Ability and DC mods as well.

So we have the following then?

Ok, taking all of your comments for flavor and feel into account... how is this revision?

*DEATH-TOUCHED LINEAGE:* Death-touched sorcerers are a rare lineage of sorcerers born with an ability to bridge the gap between the living and the dead, gifted with the ability to speak directly to the spirits of the dead. This forms the sorcerer’s power in an innate affinity for magic related to the dead, but not necessarily a necromancer that is a specialist in the undead. This connection to the dead is involuntary and death-touched sorcerers may choose to harness the ability for their own ends, be they good, evil or somewhere in between.
(Reference: Harry Keough, of Brian Lumley’s _Necroscope[/]i books, or Cole Sear, from the movie The Sixth Sense would be death-touched sorcerers were they to exist in the D&D universe.)

*Benefit:* Death-touched sorcerers gain Knowledge (arcana and planes) as class skills. The sorcerer’s link to the spirits of the dead allows them to speak with those spirits to converse or even to glean information. This acts as a speak with dead spell-like ability at will, with the following exceptions.  Unlike the spell, the death-touched sorcerer does not compel a spirit to answer. Instead, information gathered is as if using the Gather Information skill (at a +2 insight bonus to the skill check) rather than the standard Will save. Also, the death-touch sorcerer can communicate with any deceased spirit regardless of whether or not someone has used speak with dead on the corpse. The sorcerer can still use this ability on a corpse that has been deceased for any amount of time, and the corpse still needs to be present with at minimum the head intact, as it is the gate between the death-touched sorcerer and the spirit. This ability, unlike the spell, allows communication between the sorcerer and the departed spirit, not just lingering memories in the corpse. However, the spirit’s memories of life are vague at best due to their connection to their new plane of existence. The spirit always remembers previous conversations through this ability however, unlike the spell. This ability still does not affect a corpse that has been turned into an undead creature. Death-touched sorcerers may learn any spell, regardless of the spell list from which it comes from, that directly affects undead or incorporeal creatures.

*Special Limitation:* Death-touched sorcerers have an innate connection to the spirits of the dead and with many necromantic magics which leaves a tell-tale mark of negative energy on the sorcerer making it harder for them to heal by magical healing. The death-touched sorcerer gains an involuntary Spell Resistance equal to 5+ their sorcerer class level versus all Conjuration (healing) magic. By involuntary, this means that the Spell Resistance is always active and cannot be voluntarily dropped by the sorcerer. The sorcerer’s aura also always detects as necromantic regardless of the other powers they possess.  The death-touched sorcerer may also never learn any spell, spell-like ability or supernatural ability with the Good or Healing designator. They cannot use spell completion or spell trigger items that activate banned spells, as they just do not work for the sorcerer. Due to their strong affinity to magic of the spirit world, they are left with a natural weakness toward magic of good or positive origin, receiving a –2 penalty to all saving throws against any spell, spell-like ability, or supernatural ability of the good designator or used by creatures of the good subtype.  A death-touched sorcerer who learns a prohibited spell, spell-like ability or supernatural ability may no longer gain levels as a sorcerer as well as loses all sorcerer lineage abilities (including lineage bonus known spells and spell-like abilities, but not including weapon proficiencies and normal spells known), until they atone (see the atonement spell description). Also, like a member of any other class, a death-touched sorcerer may be a multiclass character, but they face a special restriction. A death-touched sorcerer who gains a new class or template that involves racial or bloodline or heredity related abilities that are not specifically spirit oriented (for example Half-Dragon), may never again raise their sorcerer level and loses all sorcerer lineage abilities (including their bonus spells known and lineage based spell-like abilities, but not including weapon proficiencies and standard spells known).

*Lineage Spells:* The sorcerer has a specific affinity with the spirits of the dead and the magic they wield manifests in a Lineage Spell List. These lineage spells may never be changed through spell swapping or spell evolution, but only through Innate Ability evolution. These lineage spells are gained as bonus known spells as soon as the sorcerer is able to cast spells of that spell level. The sorcerer gains the Death-touched Lineage spell list.
*Death-touched Lineage Spell List:* 0–disrupt undead; 1st-unseen servant; 2nd-command undead; 3rd-gaseous form; 4th-planar ally, lesser OR animate dead; 5th-contact other plane; 6th-planar ally OR create undead; 7th-ethereal jaunt; 8th-planar ally, greater OR create greater undead; 9th-etherealness
(*Note:* At levels 4, 6 and 8 two spells are listed, depending on the sorcerer’s alignment one or the other is gained, not both. Neutral aligned sorcerer’s may choose which one upon gaining 4th level spells, they then gain the matching 6th and 8th level spells when appropriate.)

*Lineage Abilities:* The death-touched sorcerer’s connection with the spirits of the dead grows over time and they become more akin to those spirits and to the force of the spirit world.
……….At 8th level the sorcerer gains a supernatural ability that may be activated as a move-equivalent action a number of times per day equal to 3+ the sorcerer’s Charisma modifier and acts as a see invisibility spell (at the sorcerer’s class level) except that it detects undead as well as invisible and ethereal creatures by outlining them in a faint aura. This ability also reveals illusions used to hide or camouflage undead, and also reveals undead creatures who are simply hiding, concealed, or otherwise hard to see. The aura also acts as a sanctuary spell against these creatures. This aura can be dispelled, but can be activated again as a move-equivalent action on the sorcerer’s next turn and lasts for 10 minutes per sorcerer class level.

………. At 14th level the death-touched sorcerer gains the ability to summon a ghostly spirit from its resting place on the outer planes. This spirit takes the form of a shadow, an undead shade. Unlike a normal shadow, this spirit’s alignment matches that of the sorcerer, and the creature cannot create spawn. The summoned spirit cannot be turned, rebuked, or commanded by any third party. This shadow spirit serves as a companion to the sorcerer and can communicate intelligibly with the sorcerer. Every third level gained by the sorcerer adds +2 HD (and the requisite base attack and base save bonus increases) to their shadow spirit companion. If a shadow spirit companion is destroyed, or the sorcerer chooses to dismiss it, the sorcerer must attempt a DC 15 Fortitude save. If the saving throw fails, the sorcerer loses 200 experience points per sorcerer level. A successful saving throw reduces the loss by half, to 100 XP per sorcerer class level. The sorcerer’s XP total can never go below 0 as the result of a shadow spirit’s dismissal or destruction. A destroyed or dismissed shadow spirit companion cannot be replaced for 30 days.

……….At 20th level the death-touched sorcerer becomes so attuned to the spirit world that they become a being of pure magic with a complete connection to the spirit world.  The sorcerer undergoes a minor physical transformation usually to the hair, skin or eyes, such as grey-blue death-like pallor, blue lips, vacant un-dilating eyes, skin cold to the touch, etc.  They are forevermore treated as an incorporeal creature rather than as a humanoid (or whatever the sorcerer’s creature type was) for the purpose of spells and magical effects, even when in corporeal form. Additionally, the death-touched sorcerer gains the following benefits.
•	Darkvision out to 60’.
•	If the sorcerer desires, they can become incorporeal at will, as a standard action, for as long as they wish. Changing back to corporeal form is also a standard action. The sorcerer’s worn equipment (including armor and weapons) becomes incorporeal with them. This has no effect on the equipment’s function, but when the sorcerer is incorporeal they can enter or pass through solid objects while wearing their equipment. The equipment automatically changes to incorporeal when the sorcerer is incorporeal, and it returns to corporeality when the sorcerer does.

*Incoporeality (Su):* When becoming incorporeal the sorcerer lacks a physical body. They become insubstantial and can’t be touched by non-magical matter or energy. Likewise, they cannot manipulate objects or exert physical force on objects. However, incorporeal beings have a tangible presence that sometimes seems like a physical attack against a corporeal creature.  Incorporeal creatures still exist on the same plane, and those on that plane still have some chance to affect them.  
…..When incorporeal, the sorcerer can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, by magic weapons, or by spells, spell-like effects, or supernatural effects. They are immune to all non-magical attack forms. They are not burned by normal fires, affected by natural cold, or harmed by mundane acids. Even when struck by magic or magic weapons, an incorporeal death-touched sorcerer has a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source—except for a force effect or damage dealt by a ghost touch weapon.
…..Incorporeal death-touched sorcerers are immune to critical hits, extra damage from being favored enemies, and from sneak attacks. They move in any direction (including up or down) at will. They do not need to walk on the ground. They can pass through solid objects at will and cannot fall or take falling damage, although they cannot see when their eyes are within solid matter. They also have no weight and do not set off traps that are triggered by weight. They can also pass through and operate in water as easily as they do in air. They do not leave footprints, do not have a scent, and do not make noise unless they manifest, and even then they only make noise intentionally.
…..Incorporeal death-touched sorcerers hiding inside solid objects get a +2 circumstance bonus on Listen checks, because solid objects carry sound well. Pinpointing an opponent from inside a solid object uses the same rules as pinpointing invisible opponents (see Invisibility, below). 
…..The physical attacks of incorporeal death-touched sorcerers ignore material armor, even magic armor, unless it is made of force (such as mage armor or bracers of armor) or has the ghost touch ability. Also, corporeal creatures cannot trip or grapple incorporeal death-touched sorcerers. ​…..Unlike other incorporeal creatures, the sorcerer can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. Also unlike other incorporeal creature, death-touched sorcerers still need to eat and sleep like a normal humanoid.




Thoughts?_


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## Veritas (Sep 30, 2004)

Hmph... I've been working on my own variant of the sorcerer, but nothing to this magnitude. 

I just gave them a form of natural Eschew Materials called "Blood Focus", that allows them to ignore spell components less than 100gp per level, and a different ability for scrolls called Transference. Transference allows the sorcerer to syphon off the magical energies held within scrolls in order to fuel their own magic. They cannot use scrolls the normal way, though, since they lack the arcane knowledge to use them. They can attempt to use them normally with the Use Magic Device skill though, which I added to their class list. It limits the sorcerer in their choice of spells, but it does make a bit more sense... to me anyways. heh.

I like the different lineages you've gone into detail about, though. I haven't had a chance to read it through thoroughly, but I've thought of this kind of thing myself, and I'm liking what I'm seeing with your version.


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## Khaalis (Sep 30, 2004)

Thanks for the comments. A lot of people had input shaping the class that now exists and I think it is a very solid build. The core build allows for just about any type of "lineage" one could desire with the "Default/Unknown" lineage being zesty enough to make the sorcerer unique compared to the wizard.

Its not a style for everyone, obviously, but many people want to stick to the flavor text that sorcery is an inherited ability rather than a studied skill like wizardry.  There are also those who feel that the sorcerer is fine as-is, but through experimentation and repeated attempts to play the sorcerer or run sorcerer players, I found that the sorcerer was vastly lacking in both class uniquness as well as in mechanical "power" compared to the other classes.  Now that the XPH is out, my vision of what a sorcerer should have been is in all reality - the Psion. It comes across as actually being innate unlike the core sorcerer which ends up just being a poor imitation of a wizard - and in all reallity not much better than the NPC Adept.

Again, any further comments more than welcome. Its always a project 'in-the-works'.


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## Veritas (Sep 30, 2004)

Yeah, I've never been satisfied with the core Sorcerer, right from its introduction in 3e, and the addition of Spell Swap in 3.5e wasn't much of a tweak.

I went much more for the innate-ability sorcerer and pulled it back from the learned-magic, as you said.

Oh, and I like your addition of Item Familiars into the class. I've been looking into using that ever since I picked up the UA. I was going to change all familiars over to the same rules as item familiars. So, the animal companion familiar wouldn't give any skill bonuses and such, it would give the abilities of an item familiar, storing XP, skillpoints and spellslots. However, I took familiars away from the sorcerer, and left them only for the wizard. Perhaps I should rethink that.

I'll definitely return any comments I have regarding what I see though. 

And I finally picked up a copy of the XPH, but I haven't had a chance to read it yet. I'll take a look at the Psion, now that you mention it. It'll give me some insight into what your thoughts are.


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## Khaalis (Oct 6, 2004)

Any more comments on the Death-Touched Lineage?


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## FoxWander (Oct 8, 2004)

Sorry not to respond sooner. It looks good to me. Glad I could contribute some to the project.


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## Bihor (Oct 8, 2004)

I love the Lineage and will use it in my campaing.

The only one I think is missing is the Fairy lineage


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## Khaalis (Oct 12, 2004)

Bihor said:
			
		

> I love the Lineage and will use it in my campaing.
> 
> The only one I think is missing is the Fairy lineage




Originally this was contained in the "Child of Nature" entry. Do you have an idea for something specifically more Fey?


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## Khaalis (Oct 13, 2004)

*UPDATE

SORCERER REVISION UPDATE 10.12*

The Lineage Sorcerer has been updated with the _Death-Touched Sorcerer Lineage_.


The PDF version of the work-in-progress to date is located at:
http://home.rochester.rr.com/khaalisrealm/


Old versions available by request (due to website size limitations).
SORCERER REVISION UPDATES 4.04, 7.04 and 9.21


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## Gustave Arcanus (Oct 20, 2004)

*News From The Front*

Hey, been a while. 

Finally got a chance to do some playtesting, and it works pretty well. At least, the old version (9.-ish) did. The Mutable variant could be potentially unbalancing as it was written then, not sure if any changes have been made to it.

As the lineages themselves go, I've found that the Unknown Lineage is really pretty powerful late-game because of the ability to use low-cost metamagic for free almost as often as you'll ever need them. Heighten Spell is a wonderful pick for them. The Tarot ability to craft items, I feel, shouldn't have to wait 'til 20th level (if I read it right) if you pick up the abilities before then. Otherwise, one of my personal favorites is the Magical Family lineage, mostly because of the Archmage-ish abilities (not the least of which being Arcane Fire at epic levels) and complete freedom in choosing the Lineage Spells.

I look forward to seeing more input for this massive (and massively rewarding) project, as well as future projects involving the other character classes, the Fighter in peticular. Personally, I feel that their ability to pick almost any combat-oriented feat as a bonus every other level is good, but lacks a lot of flavor and eventual power. Too often I've seen (and heard people complain) about high-level Fighters that are forced to bow and beg to the Mages (both varieties, even the base versions) for their ability to wipe their existence from the multiverse with but a gesture and/or a few words. In the end, their versatility is at once their greatest asset and their greatest weakness.

But this is for another thread. Good gaming, all! 

P.S.: Something that just popped to mind, the innate evolution only happens to 3rd-level and lower spells, and never to the 0-level one.  How about some options (Mutable feature, feat, whatever) to allow the 0-level spell to evolve, or higher-level ones to do so?


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## Khaalis (Oct 26, 2004)

Gustave Arcanus said:
			
		

> Hey, been a while.



Hey Gustave - thanks for posting!



> Finally got a chance to do some playtesting, and it works pretty well. At least, the old version (9.-ish) did. The Mutable variant could be potentially unbalancing as it was written then, not sure if any changes have been made to it.




What do you find as potentially unbalancing about the mutable ability at 2nd level? Some examples would be useful to see what you mean.




> As the lineages themselves go, I've found that the Unknown Lineage is really pretty powerful late-game because of the ability to use low-cost metamagic for free almost as often as you'll ever need them. Heighten Spell is a wonderful pick for them. The Tarot ability to craft items, I feel, shouldn't have to wait 'til 20th level (if I read it right) if you pick up the abilities before then.




This is as designed actually. It is the same system as presented in the Unearthed Arcana and is meant to make the generic sorcerer (those not using lineages) be viable against the Wizard.




> I look forward to seeing more input for this massive (and massively rewarding) project,



Thanks for the compliment.



> as well as future projects involving the other character classes, the Fighter in peticular. Personally, I feel that their ability to pick almost any combat-oriented feat as a bonus every other level is good, but lacks a lot of flavor and eventual power. Too often I've seen (and heard people complain) about high-level Fighters that are forced to bow and beg to the Mages (both varieties, even the base versions) for their ability to wipe their existence from the multiverse with but a gesture and/or a few words. In the end, their versatility is at once their greatest asset and their greatest weakness.
> But this is for another thread. Good gaming, all!



Yes, Fighters (and other classes like Bard) are in need of some serious love. There is also a tread or few on the WotC boards about the Fighter. Its one of the weaker designs, but as you say thats another discussion...




> P.S.: Something that just popped to mind, the innate evolution only happens to 3rd-level and lower spells, and never to the 0-level one.  How about some options (Mutable feature, feat, whatever) to allow the 0-level spell to evolve, or higher-level ones to do so?




Originally in the older threads, people voted down the ability to Spell-Like the higher level spells as being too powerful, and the 0-levels spells as a basically worthless ability.  What makes you lean toward this?

Thanks!


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## Bihor (Oct 30, 2004)

For me the idea of fey lineage should include in the lineage ability somme invisibility and a enchantment.

the Child on nature is good but I found it more druid-like

Maybe i should call my idea the sprite lineage.

and a level 20 it should get a size category smaller and get wings.

Just some creazy though , I did not sleep las night


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## Fieari (Nov 5, 2004)

Hey Khaalis, I just discovered the WotC Character Optimization boards, and posted this there to see if they could break it in any way.  The first thing that came up was the fact that by spending a few very low level spells, you can obtain very high level slots in little over an hour.



> Weaving / Unweaving
> 
> 3 2nd + 1 1st = 7th level = 5th slot
> Unweave 5th slot = 2 4th level slots
> ...




I thought it was an interesting point... the sorcerer in my campaign hasn't used any spell weaving at all, and of course, he's only level 5 right now, but I -could- potentially see this happening later.  Level 9 slots are incredibly powerful... that's very little investment for a LOT of reward.  I seem to remember while it was being discussed before (I wasn't REALLY paying attention at that time) there was talk of making sure there was always loss when weaving up... but here, you can clearly see there's gain.


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## Khaalis (Nov 9, 2004)

Well, the first thing that comes to mind, is that you cant weave a spell slot you dont know a spell for, so I am assuming that this is for a high level character?

As to the question of spell levels beyond 9th, the answer would have to be no. The core system itself doesnt have spell slots over 9th so any spell weaved into a spell level higher than 9th would stay 9th, losing any extra levels.  This would also count when ealing with spell levels you dont know spells for. It caps at the level you can cast, regardless of how many levels you lose past the cap. 

Edit: Found the thread and posted to it.
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=333275


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## Evilhalfling (Nov 9, 2004)

*Land Tied Sorcerer Lineages*

Im working up a new campaign, and am very fond of the lineages, but there are too many to logically expect a player to choose from.   I am considering limiting it to 4 lineages per contentient (with 3 of 5 designed) the last 2 are far away and have little impact on the campaign.

This would change the bloodline mechanic a bit and possibly allow loss of some ablities if you were not on home turf. 
Opition 1: loose bonus spells and level linked ablilities while not on home turf.
   but continue to gain them, ready to use if you return. 
Option 2: keep your old ablilities but are not able to learn new ones until you return. 
Option 3: your homeland deterimines your lineage, it doesn't change even if you leave. 
Then comes the question of adapting to a new land.  I might have some lineages that correspond, and others that are antithetical.  In any case you would not be able to change lineages within a land, and would only be able to return to your previous line.

Any suggestions?


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## Khaalis (Nov 10, 2004)

Evilhalfling said:
			
		

> Im working up a new campaign, and am very fond of the lineages, but there are too many to logically expect a player to choose from.   I am considering limiting it to 4 lineages per contentient (with 3 of 5 designed) the last 2 are far away and have little impact on the campaign.
> 
> This would change the bloodline mechanic a bit and possibly allow loss of some ablities if you were not on home turf.
> Opition 1: loose bonus spells and level linked ablilities while not on home turf.
> ...




Personally I would simply go with option 3. Your heritage is your heritage. Think about it. Your hair doesnt change color if you visit another continent, so why would any other heritage related trait?  Now general spells learned through the standard 'Known Spells' mechanic could be influenced by location, but not what is durived from the blood coursing in your veins. You also cannot change linegaes. Its a part of you. JMHO.

As for the number of choices. I never intended all DM's to use them all. They are simply exmples of the more common types to choose from. Each DM should choose what lineages work best for their campaign, just as with any other race or class choices. 

Hope that helps.


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## Gustave Arcanus (Dec 7, 2004)

*Long Time No See*



			
				Khaalis said:
			
		

> What do you find as potentially unbalancing about the mutable ability at 2nd level? Some examples would be useful to see what you mean.



It's not the 2nd level ability that I find unbalancing.  Actually, it is a wonderful option, especially for characters wishing to aquire an item familiar.  As a sorcerer, they can do it a level earlier than a normal character can, and not spend a feat to do it, giving them a viable advantage.

What I found to be potentially unbalancing is the Mutable Variant just before the EOD.  Normally I simply use the Sorc/Wizard split, but sometimes we'll experiment with others.  In peticular, prestige class spell lists, when combined with the ability to learn spells a level earlier, has proven to be rather disgusting.  I built a character with Displacement, Improved Invisibility, Vampiric Touch, and Haste (all thanks to Assassin and Shadow Lord splits), all as 1st level spells.  What added to the raw power of this character was the fact that I still had a LOT of points left over.  Enough to add Fort as a good save and gain a Fighter's base AT.



			
				Khaalis said:
			
		

> This is as designed actually. It is the same system as presented in the Unearthed Arcana and is meant to make the generic sorcerer (those not using lineages) be viable against the Wizard.



Oh, alright then.  



			
				Khaalis said:
			
		

> Originally in the older threads, people voted down the ability to Spell-Like the higher level spells as being too powerful, and the 0-levels spells as a basically worthless ability. What makes you lean toward this?



Zero-level spells should never be overlooked by a good player.  I've found in my experience that they can be as useful if not moreso than a higher-level spell.  In fact, I can use a zero-level spell (Detect Magic, to be exact) to counter the effectiveness of a 4th-level one (Improved Invisibility).  You don't see the person, but you can still see the aura of the magic.  Plus, I use Cantrip (Prestidigitation) ALL the time.  Gotta love old-school.  

And for the higher-level spells, nobody says that you shouldn't have to spend a feat to get those spells as awakened abilities, or that you get them as often as your others.  Making you take a feat in order to gain each additional spell level would preclude the highest spells until epic levels, and only granting half of the uses per day of the others would balance it out for power.


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## Corlon (Dec 7, 2004)

wow, this is a pretty awesome class.

YOINK


Just one quick question...

the sorcerer gets a familiar, an animal companion, AND a summoned companion?


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## Fieari (Dec 8, 2004)

No, you don't.  It may be possible to get two familiars, through the use of the Magical Family lineage, but not otherwise.

At 2nd level (and not at 1st), your sorcerer gets the pick of Animal Companion, Arcane Sense, Item Familiar, OR Summoned Companion.  You get to pick ONE and ONLY ONE.



As an update to my campaign, my group has a Nature's Child lineage sorcerer who has gone from level 1 to 6.  We've found him... less than optimal, although it may be simply because our group also has a cleric, and he's been learning spells that the cleric can already cast, meaning that as the only arcane caster, his usefulness is VERY limited.  Not the fault of the lineage, it's more the fault of the player.

Although, the cleric did just die last campaign... and I'm not sure what class she'll pick next.  Maybe she'll go wizard, or pick a different lineage sorcerer, letting the current sorc take the functional place of the cleric, albeit with slightly less utility than the cleric offered.  That could work... not sure what'll actually happen though.

The player is quite looking forewards to obtaining the Fey subtype though.  Transforming into another kind of creature at 20th level has got to be one of the best features of the class.  It's quite an incentive.


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## Quickleaf (Dec 9, 2004)

Great work!    
I actually am working on a variant wizard that is designed along these lines, with heavy influence from the Ultimate Wizard. I was thinking about redoing the sorcerer next, but it looks like I won't need to. yah!

So, the question I have is...How would you build an oracle using the lineage sorcerer? That is, someone who has a gift of seeing the future in their blood.


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## Corlon (Dec 10, 2004)

Hmm, I've given this a more thorough readover, and....


The idea is cool, and the whole beginning is cool, but I think it starts falling apart a bit in the later levels.

There are also some balance issues I find with things like the shifter class (you could get something like 7 castings a day of alter self at first level!).


But let's take for example the fire lineage:  Very cool first abilities:  the ability to learn any fire spell, and the free fire spells along with a fire attack and +10 speed (the attack isn't that great, but it's pretty cool).  This balanced by the not being able to learn cold spells and the -2 to saves.

But later on, getting resistance 10 at 8th, immunity at 14, and the fire elemental type at lv 20 just isn't going to keep a person interested in the class it seems...

I don't really know what I'm trying to say, it seems that the lineages are a good idea, but they lack pizzazz.


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## Khaalis (Dec 16, 2004)

Sorry I haven’t been around. My father has been in the hospital for the last few weeks, diagnosed with type 4 terminal cancer, so I haven’t been around. I will be around only sporadically for a while.

Fieari – Thanks for the updates. I am curious to know how the Nature’s Child pans out.

Quickleaf – For the Oracle, it totally depends on what form of oracle you refer to…  In all cases the caster would choose predominately Divination spells.

Already written Lineages that work well…
Unknown Lineage with Divination Spell List.
Ancestor Spirit or Totem Spirit Shamans for a shamanic oracle.
Celestial, Fiendish or Natures Child with heavy divination for a more communal oracle.
Divine Receptacle with the Divination domain for a divine oracle.
Gypsy Family – enough said…
Magical Family with Divination school specialty.
Tarot Lineage for a more pagan oracle.

Corlon – In reference to the Shifter, I don’t really see _Alter Self_ as a game breaking spell at 7/day. It is limited to the same “type”, may only be off by one size category, can only mimic a creature of up to 5HD, you lose any extraordinary special attacks and qualities not derived from class levels (thus racial), and you only gain normal physical abilities of the creature not extraordinary, supernatural or spell-like. It doesn’t even alter your gear in appearance (unless its absorbed to being non-usable), so its limited in use as a disguise tool as well. Overall, yes it has uses to a very planned and intelligent player, but nothing game breaking. At least IMHO.

As for the elemental lineages, this is purely a matter of taste. The abilities of resistance and immunity may seem weak to some, and incredibly powerful to others. This is a source of constant debate with prestige classes that give the same benefits.  In someone’s campaign, resistance to fire may be a huge boon if they are based in say a desert campaign were fire magic and fire creatures are predominant.  To some the abilities are seen as only a 1 in 5 usefulness since there are 4 other energy types they can be effected by.  To those that do not see the immunity as a boon, then the elemental lineages might not be their cup of tea, and neither would any of the other elemental oriented PrC’s that basically give the same benefits. They would be better off being an Unknown Evoker or something similar.

As for the overall lacking in Pizzazz as you put it. Always open for ideas, but most of these lineages have been hashed over for balance.  With the restrictions of power, we lose some ability to have pizzazz. 


Keep the comments and thoughts coming. I’ll check in as often as I can manage.


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## Corlon (Dec 16, 2004)

hmm, maybe give some abilities that enhance spells (that is IMO what the sorcerer is about anyways) like the ability to change somethign about the area of spells, enhance the range, DCs, or damage for spells with the descriptor.

Perhaps have a list of abilities (somethign akin to talents from D20 modern) that a person can choose from every time they gain an ability.  Maybe give 6, two normal, two improved, and two greater, and have lists where you can choose from up to that list but you can choose from the lower ones, or possibly make ability chains (as in the fire resistance 10, immunity, etc.) so a person can go up in one or have a bunch of different abilities none of which are great.

This would make the sorcerers even more customizable inside of each lineage, so every child of fire sorcerer you meet won't have exactly the same abilities...

-Corlon


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## Fieari (Dec 16, 2004)

That sounds more like a job for metamagic feats than a class feature, personally.  Speaking of which, I don't think there are any metamagic feats that effect range or area... a niche that needs to be filled, perhaps?

Hm.  You know, couple this design document with some nice flavor text, maybe get an artist or two, add some feats, roleplaying advice, a couple new magic items, and this might be publishable as a book.  "Complete Sorcerer" anybody?


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## Corlon (Dec 16, 2004)

I don't like the metamagic because it changes the casting time, and I'm not partial to the increased levels either.

I'm just thinking like various abilities, some like are already there and some that modify either the lineage spells or all spells with (*insert*) descriptor.  Possibly have one "talent" where all the current lineage and innate abilities are.

Innate abilities could be one of these talents perhaps?


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