# My Paladin killed a.. 2nd thread (The Verdict is IN - p4)



## Torm

Okay. I've read all of the other thread this one is based on, and there seems to be a wide variety of opinions - entirely too much information, it seems to me, for what that thread was started for. What he and his DM seemed to be looking for was a trial, of sorts, so I propose we give it to them:

First, go read the initial post in the other thread. Think it over well. Then come back in here in the character of one of your Paladin characters. State your character's name, alignment, and God of allegiance.

The first twelve LG Paladins (I am aware of variant rules and others who call themselves that - only LGs, please.) that come in and sign in will act as a jury. I will be #1:

Sandelphon, Paladin of Torm the True, LG


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## Nightfall

Ooh what about me! I wanna be Barcionus!


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## Torm

Oh, I don't guess I mentioned this before, and I'm not trying to be rude, but please - no crosstalk from non-participants. It will be difficult enough to come to consensus quickly with just the 12.

Thanks.


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## Nightfall

So I don't count as a paladin huh?


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## Sejs

Valentine del Lonis, paladin of the Triad (FR; Tyr, Torm and Ilmater.).  LG.


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## drunkmoogle

*#3: Valna, LG Paladin (no diety)*

I am Valna Vitrano, paladin of myself. I have much experience in both the celestial and fiendish planes, and let me just say that the world we live in is not so unjust.

I have both celestial and fiendish parents, and I have slain my own father, a half-celestial exiled from Elysium, in the name of justice. My mother, who is just as evil, I have let go, as the laws of Elysium do not pertain to her and she has done nothing to wrong anyone within the recent past.

OOC: this is a very shades-of-gray paladin. Gruff, arrogant, and pushing limits. But in the end, he is still Lawful Good.


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## Torm

So far, I have Sandelphon, Barconius, Valna, and Valentine del Lonis signed in. Everyone else, please sign in in the manner requested:

Name, God, Alignment

Thanks.


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## Nightfall

*Barconius, (Pal 9/Mkn10) God: Corean; Align: LG. Favored Weapon: Longsword*

Barconius, Champion of Mithril, Mithril Sword of Corean, the Champion. LG (as if there were any other)

Tough, fair, honest, and willing to fight for what's right.

*deliberates*

My order, which follows the precepts of our God, the Champion, teaches that sacrifice of self is very important. While it should not come at the price of honor, protecting the innocent is paramount. This is a truly tough decision I face...but as my God guides me, he teaches the act was in good faith, however the actions were not. Thus censure would be appropriate, but certainly no more. A paladin must prove he stands better than a common solider. Yeah, even the "knights" of Calastia slaughter those that harm their own, but they do so with no sense of right or protection. Merely to prove their strength. Thus I vote, with a heavy heart, Guilty. But with a measure of resolve that this paladin should not be cast away. Merely looked after and guided.


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## nonamazing

(Okay, this is cool--I like this).

My Lord, I am Titian Kerrick, follower of Heironeous.

My judgement is that the paladin in question should recieve a slight chastisement, perhaps a temporary loss of his powers until he reconsiders his role as a paladin.

Why?  Not because he slew the varlet--that was a righteous act (although subdual would have been acceptable).  And not because he slew him from behind--although questionable, that was hardly enough to merit punishment.  No, it was because of what he _did not_ do, what any paladin in this or any similar situation must always do first: put themselves into the path of danger.  Before anything else, the paladin should have made sure that he was between the victim and the attacker, ready to protect the child at the cost of his own life if need be.

As it turned out, the man was no serious threat to the paladin.  But he was a threat to the child.  And as protectors of the weak, we must always make it clear that we stand, both literally and metaphorically, between those who threaten and those who are threaten.

Lord Titain Kerrick, currently in special service to his high shining holiness, Heironeous.


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## Sejs

Valentine will do just fine, heh no need to use my full name every time *smiles*

I'm glad to offer whatever help I can.  Is there any other information needed before things get rolling?


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## Torm

Titian Kerrick, you are signed in, provided you are LG. Please confirm.

Your opinion is valued and will be gotten to, but I would like to do this in phases. After everyone is signed in, we will first vote as to whether the Paladin deserves a penalty at all: Guilty or Innocent. If Innocent, we're done. If guilty, we proceed to try to come to consensus on the penalty.


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## Hypersmurf

I considered the last two paladins I've played, and realised that they'd have very different views on the matter.

Tatyana (young and impetutous, commoner-born, Paladin of Remnis, God of Giant Eagles) would be jumping up and down and cheering, and offering to buy him a drink.

Bralburanda Lynn (older and wiser, half-celestial son of a noblewoman, Paladin of Siamorphe, Goddess of Nobility) would be making Marge Simpson "Hmmmmm" noises, and voting for temporary sanctions (though not a stripping of powers).

-Hyp.


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## Torm

Hypersmurf, sign in with one or the other, but not both. Your other character will be useful, however - we will keep them for a tiebreaker, if necessary, so please present their name, god, alignment, too. Thanks.


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## drunkmoogle

torm said:
			
		

> Your opinion is valued and will be gotten to, but I would like to do this in phases. After everyone is signed in, we will first vote as to whether the Paladin deserves a penalty at all: Guilty or Innocent. If Innocent, we're done. If guilty, we proceed to try to come to consensus on the penalty.




Guilty or innocent of what? I assume it's "acting within the bounds of the code of the paladin," just want confirmation.


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## Torm

Drunkenmoogle: Guilty will mean Conduct Unbecoming. Innocent is, well, innocent.


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## Agemegos

Edmund Edwinson, Christian knight, LG


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## nonamazing

My Lord Torm,

I humbly ask your forgiveness for speaking out of turn.  I acted out of zeal, and forgot politeness.

As for this 'alignment' that you speak of--the ideals I hold most highly are those of Law and Goodness.

Titian Kerrick, solar-in-training


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## Torm

The list of those signed in thus far is: Barconius, Edmund Edwinson, Sandelphon, Titian Kerrick, Valentine, & Valna.

Agemegos, what game is that from, if I might ask?


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## Agemegos

Torm said:
			
		

> The list of those signed in thus far is: Barconius, Edmund Edwinson, Sandelphon, Titian Kerrick, Valentine, & Valna.
> 
> Agemegos, what game is that from, if I might ask?




A D&D 3.0 campaign set in a fantasticised Durham, England in AD 1090-1092. Edmund Edwinson was a son of a Saxon (well, Northumbrian) huscarl killed in fighting against the Norman Conquest in 1069. He was raised in Spain, had fought against the Moors, had been captured, enslaved, shown mercy, released. He had studied medicine under an Iberian Jew and made a questionable marriage to his master's daughter. Driven out of Spain by anti-Semitic feeling, he had 'returned' to the land of his fathers, failed to make a living in medical practice, and turned relucctntly to the profession of arms. He was a retainer in the household of Lord Simon de Bohun, protector of the Bishopric of Durham, and had just been knighted when out-of-game considerations forced an end to the campaign. His patron saint was Saint Cuthbert (the christian version). 5th-level paladin.


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## sparxmith

*Loric Vilesilencer*

I am Loric Vilesilencer, LG, Paladin in the service of Nobanion, LG God of Nobility, Wild Beasts, Centaurs, and the Hunt.  I whole-heartedly submit myself to this task.


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## drunkmoogle

Are we going to get to this tonight (EST)? I want to get to bed by 2:00AM...

/totally OOC; my paladin went a week without rest/sustenance for attonement =/


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## Herremann the Wise

Torm said:
			
		

> Okay. I've read all of the other thread this one is based on, and there seems to be a wide variety of opinions - entirely too much information, it seems to me, for what that thread was started for. What he and his DM seemed to be looking for was a trial, of sorts, so I propose we give it to them:
> 
> First, go read the initial post in the other thread. Think it over well. Then come back in here in the character of one of your Paladin characters. State your character's name, alignment, and God of allegiance.
> 
> The first twelve LG Paladins (I am aware of variant rules and others who call themselves that - only LGs, please.) that come in and sign in will act as a jury. I will be #1:
> 
> Sandelphon, Paladin of Torm the True, LG




Herremann Mallaefor, Paladin of Fiarle (An obscure but righteous God whose portfolio includes justice, valour, war, honour, bravery) LG.

I humbly submit myself to this worthy panel.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise


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## SirEuain

Kantos, lawful good servant of Wee Jas, at your service.

(and let me tell you, it's EVER so funny to see the look on other players' faces when their trusted paladin friend REBUKES the zombies)


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## Hemlock Stones

*GOMEZ de KOLLEGO SENTINEL OF TIMANDRA*

GREETINGS BRETHREN!

It is with sad tidings that I have made this journey from the Seventh Realms to make sage counsel regarding the actions in question.

I Gomez de Kollego, Sentinel of Timandra do hereby swear to honor all of my esteemed colleagues with an impartial judgement. I have been a paladin of the Faith (paladin LG 12th) of Timandra and hold the rank of Sentinel.

So Sayeth the Bone Daddy!


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## Torm

Those signed in so far: Barconius, Edmund Edwinson, Gomez de Kollego, Herremann Mallaefor, Kantos, Loric Vilesilencer, Sandelphon, Titian Kerrick, Valentine, & Valna.

Room for two more, everyone. Still waiting on a sign in from Hypersmurf, but he'd better hurry or it looks like it will be gone.

Those who have been confirmed to the list may go ahead and state Guilty or Innocent to the charge of Conduct Unbecoming a Paladin.

Innocent

I will take this back up at approx 10 AM EST, and I hope for a verdict (and sentencing, if necessary) to be reached by tommorrow night. Thanks.

P.S. Even if you are planning on voting Innocent, DO be thinking about what penalty you might want to suggest should it go to that phase.... G'night.


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## Abraxas

Sir Abraxas of Mishtan, Inquisitor of Osiris. (Paladin, 13th, LG) 

I humbly submit myself to bring the impartiality of Osiris to the panel.


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## sparxmith

*Innocent*

*INNOCENT*

The man acted with valour and righteousness.  The evil scumbag was caught in the middle of an evil act.  I wouldn't care if the girl were his slave and he had the legal right to rape her, the Paladin acted Justly.

If, for whatever reason, a guilty verdict is rendered, I move that he be censured and forced to serve penance by aiding the penitent in their road to Righteousness.  He should be forced to serve as guard to one who has renounced his evil ways and is on a quest of atonement.  This would allow the Paladin in question to observe and aid one who is seeking to reject Darkness and turn to the Light.

I look forward to everyone's response.


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## drunkmoogle

Valna Vitrano said:
			
		

> I, Valna Vitrano, find the Paladin in question:
> guilty of conduct unbecoming.




Spoiler text. Goodnight from the east coast.


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## SirEuain

Torm said:
			
		

> Those who have been confirmed to the list may go ahead and state Guilty or Innocent to the charge of Conduct Unbecoming a Paladin.




Guilty, however understandably so. He did not need to kill, and did so without considering his actions beyond their immediate consequences. As it was his choice to cut down a man who may have had accomplices, what those accomplices do next is on the paladin's head.


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## nonamazing

Most Powerful Lord Trom,

I submit that the paladin in question is, in fact, guilty of not living up to the standard required of him, for the reasons which I briefly discussed earlier.

A paladin is a warrior, true--the strong arm of righteousness.  But in our essence, we are protectors.  We stand in front of the Light and protect it from the Darkness.  We do not "walk the line"--we _are_ the line.  The paladin in question acted as a warrior first and a protector second.

Titian Kerrick, paladin, son of Lord Thaddeus Kerrick


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## Elder-Basilisk

Pen and paper only or are message board games permitted?

Pellenor, Paladin of Heironeous from the lands of Ballantine (homebrew using the Greyhawk Pantheon)

or

Sir Rhy Abberach of the Holy Order of the Sword, A welsh Christian Knight who appeared as an NPC in the background of a Rolemaster PC I played and was my character in the Paladins of the Board PbP about four years ago.


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## Herremann the Wise

*Guilty*

"Thank you my Lords for allowing me to concisely address the issue of guilt or innocence in this particular case.

The striking down and decapitation of an unarmed man previous to an announcement of purpose and intent is a dishonourable act. It has not rendered the law the respect it deserves and is an act formally unbecoming of a person of our august station. It is an act committed through chaotic emotion rather than considered and just thought. It is an act made with numerous assumptions and with disregard for the victim, the alleged transgressor, the law and the Church and God to which the Paladin professes to follow.

While there are mitigating circumstances, any commendation due is forfeit because of the lack of wisdom and foresight displayed. While I do not wish to preach to you, my honoured peers, it must be stated that we as Paladins must be above reproach in regard to the law and the codes we follow. To ignore this is to cheapen the efforts of ourselves, our forefathers and the honoured and divine people that have gone before us in service to our righteous deities.

Hence, I have no choice but to announce as a representative of Fiarle and the Pride of the Lion the formal pronouncement of guilty."

[Vocal] This is accompanied by the approving roar of Alla’ Mombassa, Celestial Dire Lion mount, friend and eternal companion of Herremann Mallaefor [Vocal].
[Vision] A light shines down upon the pair as a formal blessing from Fiarle is given [Vision].


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## Hemlock Stones

*Innocent*

GREETINGS BRETHREN!

MATTERS OF CONSEQUENCE

*What I considered important to whether or not Vindicator’s Conduct was Unbecoming a Paladin:*

*Code of Conduct:* A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever *willingly commits an evil act.*
Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), *help those in need * (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and *punish those who harm or threaten innocents*.

*GOOD VS. EVIL*
Good characters and creatures *protect innocent life*. Evil characters and creatures debase or *destroy innocent life*, whether for fun or profit.
“Good” implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make *personal sacrifices * to help others.
“Evil” implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and *kill without qualms if doing so is convenient.*
*LAW VS. CHAOS*“Law” implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability. On the downside, lawfulness can include close-mindedness, *reactionary adherence to tradition, judgmentalness*, and a lack of adaptability. Those who consciously promote lawfulness say that only lawful behavior creates a society in which *people can depend on each other and make the right decisions in full confidence that others will act as they should.*

I believe that the conduct of Vindicator was abrupt and sudden. Yet by the very tenets we owe our existence, Vindicator was reasonable in his actions. Therefore he is *innocent * and his conduct acceptable under the Paladin's Code of Conduct.

However, the community standards, (local legal customs) were not followed and thus broken by Vindicator. The paladin Vindicator must make restitution to the family of the deceased equivalent to the wages and earning that the deceased would have accrued over their shortened lifetime. Further, the girl that was saved, if she has no surviving family or no one will take her in, must be raised by the paladin Vindicator.

I arrived at my decision based on my interpretation of all of the passages that were in bold above as it related to the situation that took place.

...and the Bone Daddy decreed: *"Let the man go free!"*


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## Elder-Basilisk

Spoiler



Sir Rhys Abberach of the Holy Order of the Sword.

The man in question acted justly but without forethought or consideration for the wider effects of his actions. His actions usurped the role of the secular arm of governance to whom it is given to wield the sword for the punishment of evil and therebye brought the system of justice and retribution established by the power of heaven into disrepute and deprived the people of an opportunity to see and participate in the administration of justice.

In light of this, I must hold him guilty of negligence and rash action and recommend that he be ordered to do penance as appropriate to his station. Were he under my command, he would learn humility and consideration in the scullery of the order for a month and then complete a pilgrimage to Rome. To Torm, the appointed agent of justice in the land of Toril, I recommend that the accused be reprimanded and sent upon a pilgrimage or quest that will bring order to a lawless population in your land.



Edit: I hope I haven't spoken out of turn but I'm going to bed, the last message said that there's two slots left. I've spoilered my character's judgement so that, in the event that Torm finds him ineligable to render judgement, it will not unduly influence events.


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## Sejs

*Valentine's say.*

Innocent.

In my oppinion the paladin in question acted prudently and justly given the situation at hand.  I think there can be little doubt as to the deceased's guilt in the several heinous wrongs that had been brought upon the girl - kidnapping and multiple rape being the most obvious.  When the paladin came upon the man about to further brutalize the girl, the man did not pose a threat to the paladin.  He did, however, pose a very real and probable threat to the restrained child.  Rather than risk possible harm to the girl, the paladin cut the man down.


The paladin chose not to use non-lethal force upon the man, and frankly I feel that it was well within his right to decide whether or not to do so.  Were the situation different, and the child not immediatly at risk, non-lethal measures would have proven more gainful, as the wrong-doer could then be restrained and questioned about any possible accomplices or other victims he had stored elsewhere.  But that wasn't the situation that was given.  

Some may speak of capturing the criminal and bringing him to a public trial to recieve his punishment.  Let me preface my following comments by saying that amongst my other duties, I am a servant of the Lord of Justice, Tyr.  I have had to deal with similar situations in the past where punishment had to be handed out without the luxury of a detailed judiciary system to dole out exactly what amercement fit the exact combination of crimes commited.  That being said, most punishments tend to fall into one of several common categories no matter where you go:

Monetary fines or recompense.
Public humiliation.
Maiming.
Execution.

A fine or public humiliation would be ... inadequate ... given the crimes this man visited upon his victim.  Laughably so.  Maiming would probably had sufficed had he commited only one of his misdeeds; his eyes struck had he only kidnapped the girl, his manhood seared off with irons had he commited a single rape.  The fact that he performed several crimes, and their nature,  would mean that any punishment by maiming would just compound upon one another until such punishment would be tantamount to execution.  Frankly, the man's actions set him to die, be it by headsman's axe, hot irons, or a paladin's wrath.

A public trial would indeed likely serve to strengthen local order's protection of the populace by demonstrating just what happens to you when you do evil unto your fellow man.  But that ultimatly doesn't matter; such a public message was not the paladin's concern when he came upon the rapist and his victim - his only concern was the welfare of the child, and rightly so.

So again, in summation, I believe that the paladin acted in a manner that is befitting of a soldier of the light; protecting the weak and innocent from the depredations of the wicked.  I would, and do find him innocent of any misconduct.  




As I was also requested to provide what punishmen I feel would be appropriate should a verdict of guilty be reached, I will endeavor to do so.  Firstly, I do not feel that a stripping of the paladin's status as such should be levied, whatsoever.  The paladin did not commit an evil act, he did not grossly violate his code of conduct, and so on.  I would move that a fitting punishment would be for a temporary reduction or inaccessability of certain powers to be weighed unto the paladin until such time that he completes a task that is fitting to the situation that landed him in such hot water in the first place.  

Therefor, my suggestion for possible punishment of the paladin would be either:

A) In the event that the child victim has no family or guardian, that the paladin be responsible for the care and upbringing of said child, with special attention being given that the child be raised to be an ethical and meritous young woman.  Until such time that she is able to take care of herself as a capable young adult, the paladin should have no access to his holy mount.  This is to represent that the paladin has chosen to bear the burden of the girl's welfare himself rather than rely on others to render aid.

B) In the event that the child is possessed of family or guardian, then the paladin should instead be charged with insuring that the dead rapist did not have any accomplices or other victims hidden away elsewhere.  He would likewise be required to see any such men brought to justice, and any innocents in their custody released and tended to.  During this ordeal, and until such time as it is complete to his god's satisfaction, the paladin should have no access to his ability to detect evil.  This would represent that if that paladin did indeed wish to enter into this situation blindly, then he will see it thru to its completion in the exact same manner.


I have said my peace and look forward to your responses, one and all.  Thank you.


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## Jaws

*Raguel Richmond*

Raguel Richmond, 11th-level Paladin of Baern (homebrew using this Pantheon) and Kingdom of Kalamar map.

Of this order I am made one,
From Mankind to guard this place
That through their Guilt they have foregone,
For they have forfeited His Grace;
Therefore all this must they shun
Or else my Sword they shall embrace
And myself will be their Foe
To flame them in the Face.

He didn't get his calling until he 43 years old. So he isn't naive. His profession was a jeweler.

His holy sword is named Lexa, she was a paladin from 5000 years ago.

Raguel's special mount is a Dire Lion named Keesha.


Peace and smiles 

j.


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## Agemegos

Conduct unbecoming to a paladin: *Guilty*

My lords, it is with great reluctance that I vote to condemn a fellow man. And yet I know full well that the calling of a paladin ofttimes demands that hard choices be made with great urgency and too little knowledge. If I am in such a case, and act in the best of good faith, and turn out to be wrong, I hope not to be condemned. Does that not mean that if I act in bad faith or with unjustified haste, the chance that I turn out to be right cannot acquit me? We must judge our brother on his actions in his circumstances, not on their result.

I cannot in accordance with my oath declare that it is becoming in a paladin to strike down a defenceless man, from behind, without warning.

I cannot in accordance with my oath declare that it is becoming in a paladin to hold a trial in such shabby, disgraceful, unedifying circumstances, with so little regard for propriety and due form.

I cannot in accordance with my oath declare that it is becoming in a paladin to pass judgement without allowing the defence to speak.

I cannot in accordance with my oath declare that it is becoming in a paladin to kill when it is not needful to do so.

I cannot in accordance with my oath declare that it is becoming in a paladin to give up hope in the justice of the courts without he has put them to the test.

And thereore upon my conscience I must declare that he is guilty: of conduct unbecoming in a paladin. And may God have mercy upon both our souls.


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## Sejs

Master Edwinson, given that you feel the paladin in question is indeed guilty of conduct unbecoming, what do you believe would be appropriate penance for our brother, in order for him to regain his good standing?


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## Hemlock Stones

*Penalty If Guilty*

GREETINGS BRETHREN!

The lateness of the hour hath made me slip in the event that Vindicator is found guilty of Conduct Unbecoming a Paladin.

What penance can a headstrong paladin be made to suffer that will reasonably vex him with regards to his stature? If the justice he meted out be deemed wrong, then he can no longer be considered worthy of passing judgement on others. 

The very code we fight the struggle of Good vs. Evil with empowers a paladin to strike instantly for justice with the might of their deity behind them. Such powers must be wielded discrimnately lest an innocent be struck down in error.

Vindicator is still of a noble spirit. The struggles he has won before do not go unheralded. Whatever manner of weapon Vindicator used in this vile deed he can never wield again. (-6 to attacks and damage with whatever weapon it was; if it was a broadsword, he can no longer use a broadsword. In addition if the weapon he used in the vile deed was magical, it should now be considered a Cursed Peasant Slayer and gain a bonus to attack and damage equal to the levels the paladin loses. See below.) May the vigor of Vindicator be taken and sown into the fields of wisdom. (Permanent loss of two points of Strength; Permanent gain of one point of Wisdom) The master that bore you into the ranks of truth bringers has failed to guide you well. You must discover the grains of truth you neglected. (Lose two levels of paladin for every one that the peasant had up to a maximum of four levels lost. This is a level drain with all of the usual HP losses etc.) 

As a final act of attonement, the cursed Peasant Slayer weapon must be destroyed in the nearest magical weapon destroying volcanoe by the hand  of Vindicator. Failure to do this before the anniversary of the vile deed will result in the bearer of the sword becoming a vessel for the spirit and soul of the slain peasant.



Lord Gomez de Kollego, 
Sentinel of Timandra


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## Sejs

(OOC - Headed off to bed.  G'night, all. )
(OOC - You know, in retrospect, I have no bloody clue as to why I posed this.  Like I couldn't have gone to bed without saying something? *boggle*)


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## TheAuldGrump

John deOrleans Paladin of the 7th rank, Order of the Sacred Flame, ordained in service to the one god.

An ye find a vile dastard in the midst of his crimes it is your bounden and sacred duty to act. Should it be a crime petty then ye might show mercy, allowing the carlet to make restitution.

An the crime is the violation of an innocent then the punishment must be final.

Be ye to say that should a rapist be found with his trews about his knees it baen the act of valour to do less than strike him down?

Nay, best he be sent to fuel Hell's e'er burning fire.

Innocent of crime and dishonor both do I hold him.


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## Agemegos

Sejs said:
			
		

> Master Edwinson, given that you feel the paladin in question is indeed guilty of conduct unbecoming, what do you believe would be appropriate penance for our brother, in order for him to regain his good standing?




It seems to me that his condemnation is still in doubt, and it is perhaps improper to speak of the sentence before the verdict lest it sway the jurors in their verdict. But since urgency is so pressing, I will speak.

The question of a sentence is a difficult question, seeing that what is right for a Christian in Durham in the Year of Our Lord one thousand and ninety-two, in a world where there is no god but God, and God is just and merciful, is not necessarily right for a paladin in a strange land where the triumph of Good is not assured. But I will answer as best I can.

*If the paladin does not repent* then I submit that he reveals himself unfit to wield the powers of God, or in his case Tyr: Law and Goodness however administered. He cannot be trusted with them, for there is a very grave danger that he will misuse them, and bring his god, his lord, the law, paladins, and goodness into further disrepute. So if he does not sincerely repent he ought to be stripped of his paladinhood, as having become no longer Lawful.

This is not really a punishment, of course, since the power always belongs not to us but to God. It is but the authority of an office, which we surrender when we cease to do the office.

*If the paladin repents* then I submit that no further action is necessary. Through the saving grace of God this paladin managed to escape the grievous sin that might have resulted from such an intemperate act. His act was not willfully evil in its motivation, and was not grossly evil in its consequences. I would rule it a grave, but not a gross, violation of the Code.

Mind you, if he does repent then naturally he will seek to make a restitution.

He must declare his killing if he has not done so already, and abide by the consequences. I am not sure how these things are handled in his land: in mine he ought to pay the wergild of the man he killed for a manslaughter (these days it goes to the King); in other lands I have been in the procedure would be for him to go to the king's court, plead his case frankly, and abide by the verdict. If it should happen that the court of competent jurisdiction is harsh or unjust, he will submit himself nevertheless and pray that his god will deliver him from maiming or death.

He will also naturally make a restitution to the Law, do something to repair the damage to its reputation that he has wrought. I would suggest that he swear himself to the service of a court of high justice either for a term of years or until he has brought just acquittal for three men wrongly accused.

All this, besides the penance that his confessor sets for him.


In any case, I consider it otiose to suspend some of his powers but not all of them, or to suspend them conditionally or temporarily. Either he is fit to trust with the power of God, in which case the more he has the better, for he may need them in his time of penance for the sake of others. Or else he is not fit to trust with it, in which case it is dangerous to entrust him with any.



Spoiler



In short, if the character immediately starts to mend his mistakes, no action. Otherwise, he ought to be ruled no longer Lawful Good, and consequently unqualified to be a paladin.


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## Khaalis

*Lord Khaalis Bloodtear, Paladin of Hoar the Doombringer, LG*

Forgive my late entrance. I can see that the counsel chambers are full, but some of us had to ride from afar to arrive at all. Though my voice may not carry much weight at this hour, it is still my duty to make known that voice.

In my view, the Paladin on trial here is innocent.

He has done no evil deed nor has he grossly violated our code of conduct. He helped an innocent in dire need and punished the one who would harm and threaten that innocent, as well I believe, other innocents as well. He has fulfilled his vows and lived by his training to remove evil from this world. His compassion was well placed with the innocent and his honor was fulfilled by rescuing the innocent and destroying another aspect of evil, one of so many that so plague our world.  There is no secular law more mighty than divine law, as secular law is fallible, and is not concerned with divine law which dictates that evil shall be fought and eradicated at any possible opportunity. The Paladin in question meted out the punishment dictated by our law and did so with swift mercy and without cruelty. He is a servant of righteousness and should be commended for his actions.


----------



## Agemegos

Khaalis said:
			
		

> He has done no evil deed nor has he grossly violated our code of conduct.




If the charge were 'evil-doing' or 'gross violation of the Code' I should have voted 'not guilty'. But the charge was 'conduct unbecoming in a paladin', and his conduct was that. As we are men of the Word we must speak to the charge made.

This is no corrupt secular court of hidden motives of tricksy wordiness, nor of hasty and vengeful prejudice. We do not hide our meanings in obscure legalism.

If we were asked to judge a charge of willfully evil deed, the charge would be 'willfully evil deed'. If we were asked to judge a charge of 'gross violation of the Code' the charge would be 'gross violation of the Code'. But the charge is one of 'conduct unbecoming'. Therefore we judge whether his conduct was becoming. If we find that it was not, then we decide whether and to what exent unbecoming conduct requires action.

And I reluctantly remind you that the president of the court has asked that those who, for whatever reason, are not empanelled on the jury not confuse and delay proceedings with 'cross-talk'.


----------



## Darklone

*Lark Hervot Arden, First Shield of HRM Malia of Tyndall, LG*

Forgive me for being as late as Lord Khaalis, but I will try to be as short.

The paladin in question is innocent of murder.

Yet he acted rashly, without honor and in the heat of hate, thus defiling his holy calling and bringing the taint of evil upon himself. 

He is still young, so I vote to reconcile him with his teachings by sending him to a secluded monastery in the mountains for 2 months of meditation and self-contemplation.


----------



## Agemegos

Darklone said:
			
		

> The paladin in question is innocent of murder.




With respect, that is not the issue before the court, nor is it an issue that lies within our competence to judge. We are judging whether his actions were becoming in a paladin. Please do not attempt to confuse the proceedings.


----------



## Agemegos

*A pre-emptive clarification*

Duties in a far land 



Spoiler



which has time zone GMT +10 hours


 call me away for a while. And so begging the indulgence of the court I will anticipate the emergence of a number of issue that I believe will come to be of concern to the court.

If Sir Vindicator is charged with _willfully committing an evil_ act I will vote *Not Guilty*. His act was wrong, but unLawful, not Evil, and certainly he did not mean harm by it.

If he is charged with _associating with an evil character_ I will vote *Not Guilty* with an indignant tone in my voice.

If he is charged with _grossly violating the Code of Conduct_ I will vote *Not Guilty*, because I believe that his action a grave breach of the code but not a gross one. My argument is that striking down a defenceless man is dishonourable, that such a shabby and surreptitious way of punishing the wicked is disrespectful to authority (though conducting a proper trial on his own authority might not have been), and that this course of action was not needed to protect the innocent and punish the guilty (though it did achieve those ends).

If it is charged that he is not of _Lawful Good alignment_ I will vote *Not Proven* and thank God for Scottish jurisprudence. I believe we have to see more of his actions to make that judgement. If he recognises the wrongness of his action in its contempt even for his own authority we will be able to tell because he will attempt to repair the harm he did. (For example, he might plead guilty to a manslaughter and pay a wergild, strive to restore the majesty of the law that he defamed, and strive to discover whent the man he killed had any accomplices.) Then we will know that he is still Lawful Good and Not Guilty. But if he acts with insouicance or self-righteousness we will know that he does not understand the wrongness of his action, is not Lawful, and is Guilty.

As for punishments: if he is condemned of any of the charges above he is unfit to hold the office of a Paladin, and may not exercise any of the powers of that office. If he remains in that office, it would be wrong to take away any part of his power to discharge its duties. The powers of a paladin are for the service of others: they are not personal property. Taking them away harms those the paladin serves and protects, not the paladin. The same is true of making the paladin destroy his sword, or forswear the use of any weapon. Besides, I doubt the authority of this court to impose any such penalty.


----------



## Khaalis

Agemegos said:
			
		

> If the charge were 'evil-doing' or 'gross violation of the Code' I should have voted 'not guilty'. But the charge was 'conduct unbecoming in a paladin', and his conduct was that. As we are men of the Word we must speak to the charge made.
> 
> If we were asked to judge a charge of willfully evil deed, the charge would be 'willfully evil deed'. If we were asked to judge a charge of 'gross violation of the Code' the charge would be 'gross violation of the Code'. But the charge is one of 'conduct unbecoming'. Therefore we judge whether his conduct was becoming. If we find that it was not, then we decide whether and to what exent unbecoming conduct requires action.




Where then, good sir, do you see a difference between "Conduct unbecoming a Paladin" and "Violation of our Code"? 

The charge is one and the same.  The Code IS our definition of the conduct of a Paladin.  To conduct oneself in such a way as to be charged with "Conduct unbecoming a Paladin" means one has violate our code. Our code is what defines who we are, and what our purpose in life is. Our behavior is not a seperate entity from our code. If our bahavior is to be besmirched then we have violated our code. 

This Paladin has not violated his code, and thus has not acted in a way Unbecoming a Paladin, to use your choice of words.




> And I reluctantly remind you that the president of the court has asked that those who, for whatever reason, are not empanelled on the jury not confuse and delay proceedings with 'cross-talk'.




This statement shows that a misjustice is possible in this secular court you have chosen to create to try this Paladin. This is spoken with a "close-mindedness, reactionary adherence to tradition, judgmentalness, and a lack of adaptability"*. You should not hold an open forum if you refuse to hear open counsel. Refusing to do so promtes injustice.  All voices should be heard in this matter, justice demands no less.



OOC: * The possible downsides of Lawfulness some fall into as per the SRD.

Also if you want to truly acquire a verdict based on "Conduct Unbecoming" try looking at Military Law (Article 133 of The Uniform Code of Military Justice or UCMJ). The Paladin Code of Conduct is the same idea as the Military Code. They are one and the same. If you violate the code you are charged with Conduct Unbecoming. You cannot be charged with Conduct Unbecoming if you have NOT violated the Code.  The Paladin did not violate the Paladin's Code as presented in the Core Rules, thus he is Not Guilty of Conduct Unbecoming a Paladin.


----------



## Agemegos

Khaalis said:
			
		

> Where then, good sir, do you see a difference between "Conduct unbecoming a Paladin" and "Violation of our Code"?




In the meanings of the words. Wearing clothes with the arse out of the trousers would be unquestionably unbecoming to a paladin, but not a breach of the Code. 

OOC:


> Also if you want to truly acquire a verdict based on "Conduct Unbecoming" try looking at Military Law (Article 133 of The Uniform Code of Military Justice or UCMJ).




I am posting in character. My character antedates the Uniform Code of Military Justice by at least seven hundred years, and isn't an American. He is also very literal in his speech and understanding. Therefore he takes the phrase 'conduct unbecoming to a paladin' literally and at face value. I am not an American either, and it is unreasonable to expect me to master irrelevant minutiae of US military law for the purposes of this little play (though it would be reasonable if I were playing a US military lawyer). And by the way, this is not an open proceeding: Torm requested that it be treated as closed for a very sound reason. And I have listened are length to arguments for both sides in the other, open, thread. I even reversed my initial decison on the basis of the arguments others made.


----------



## Herremann the Wise

Khaalis said:
			
		

> This statement shows that a misjustice is possible in this secular court you have chosen to create to try this Paladin. This is spoken with a "close-mindedness, reactionary adherence to tradition, judgmentalness, and a lack of adaptability"*. You should not hold an open forum if you refuse to hear open counsel. Refusing to do so promtes injustice.  All voices should be heard in this matter, justice demands no less.




Are you besmirching the honour of those who have spoken here who were not tardy in arriving at this legitimate and righteous counsel?
I suggest you are walking upon dangerous ground if you wish to continue the tenor of your remarks in such a way.

Please and with all honour good sir, desist from your capricious and inflammatory interjections.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise


----------



## Quasqueton

For the record, upon entering the courtroom:

Paul Excelsior, paladin of Torm, LG.

Seeing the jury box is full, and the debate in full flow, Paul goes and takes a seat behind Vindicator. He leans forward to whisper to the defendant, 

"There were better ways to handle that situation, but you did nothing wrong or against our code. If penance is sentenced upon you, I will stand with you in whatever effort judged."



OOC: You know, this is one of the most interesting threads I've seen in this forum. I care nothing for reading or participating in the various In Character forums of the Internet, but this is a pretty cool thread.

Quasqueton


----------



## Khaalis

Herremann the Wise said:
			
		

> Are you besmirching the honour of those who have spoken here who were not tardy in arriving at this legitimate and righteous counsel?
> I suggest you are walking upon dangerous ground if you wish to continue the tenor of your remarks in such a way.
> 
> Please and with all honour good sir, desist from your capricious and inflammatory interjections.
> 
> Best Regards
> Herremann the Wise




Touchy are we not?  Not all of us have the profligate time that others do to arrive 'on time', nor do we follow the same time schedule.  Now to thine comments. Was that a veiled threat you just issued a fellow Paladin?  Would that, in itself, not besmirch a Paladin's honor in that they cannot take civil criticism with humility and introspection, without resorting to shadily veiled threats? Just because I am a Paladin does not mean I am incapable of voicing a contradictory opinion, nor does it make said contradiction capricious nor inflammatory. It is intellectual discourse. If those present are too close-minded to hear others, so be it. The Doomlord has far more important tasks for me to attend.


----------



## Torm

The jury stands thus:

Abraxas of Mishtan		not yet	
Barconius			not yet
Edmund Edwinson		INNOCENT
Gomez de Kollego		INNOCENT
Herremann Mallaefor	GUILTY
Kantos			GUILTY
Loric Vilesilencer		INNOCENT
Rhy Abberach		GUILTY
Sandelphon		INNOCENT
Titian Kerrick		GUILTY
Valentine			INNOCENT
Valna			GUILTY

We are split 5-5 so far, and I eagerly await the decisions of Abraxas and Barconius. Should they come in tied, as well, we will defer to the decision of (OOC: rolls a D4 to pick someone signed in but not in the jury yet) Paul Excelsior, Paladin of Torm, the God of this Court.

I thank all of you for coming, especially those who made a long trip to get here.

Those arguing in the back of the court should take it outside. Thank you.


----------



## Westwind

_

My most honored and revered Lord Arioch,

I, Saul Whitestone, Paladin and Divine Champion of Tyr write this to you so as to inform you, and through you the Church, of the outcome of the trial that recently transpired in Yartar.  

The facts of the matter are not in dispute by any party.  The crux of the matter lies in what those facts reveal.  Did this man stray in his action or was he Just and True?  The charged was found innocent of any wrongdoing, although only by the most narrow of margins.  What would one do if they found themselves under the jurisdiction of a Paladin of a different order?  The spirit and vigor of this debate leads me to conclude that further by-laws need to be written to ensure that the proper course of action for members of the Church who find themselves in a non-Church court is clear.

It is an interesting occurance, and one Church historians would do well to take note of, to have such an august group in one place.  However, I cannot help but rejoice at the fact that such a group would never determine my fate.  For while we all are blessed with the title and responsibiliy of Paladin, we differ greatly from our kin, as they differ from us.  I answer to Tyr's law and his representatives on Faerun.  I respect and honor the righteous secular authorities of many Kingdoms, but I am not bound to them less I swear an Oath.

If I may reveal my own feelings on the matter at hand, Lord Arioch.  The deceased was a vile and evil man; he took pleasure in the suffering of children.  As followers of Tyr we are bound to protect those who cannot protect themselves and show mercy upon those who deserve it.  From all I can gather, this man did not deserve mercy.  What should we do when a murderer comes to the Church seeking sanctuary and mercy from the local authorities?  You will recall my own dealings with the Church of Eldath in such a matter.  For Justice to have any meaning, actions must be followed by consequences.  The afterthought of regret, no matter how powerful or how sincere does not cleanse the stain of sin.  Others must know that they are protected.  Sinners must know what awaits them.  It is not the job of the Paladin to work with sinners to show them the error of their ways.  At times, we can and do just that but we are endowed with great gifts by Tyr and those gifts are meant to be used to Punish the Wicked and guard the innocent.  There are those who claim the greatest evil is a Drow or one of the many princes of the Abyss.  I claim it is man.  For while the Drow or Demon-Prince may embody evil, they are evil by blood.  Man is evil by choice and that is a far more dangerous thing.

The man in question did those very things.  And while there may have been more prudent ways of achieving those same ends, it is impossible to find fault in his course.

I remain you humble servant,

S. Whitestone

_


----------



## Taren Nighteyes

*Tydon Lyonvue Cleric and Paladin to Torm*

*Tydon walks into the court and stands in the back.  After having listened to the arguments, discussion, and evidence in this important matter, he speaks more to those around him than to those who are passing judgement at this very moment*

"While the accused acted in haste and with unnecessary force, I feel I would have done the same.  No person of upstanding moral and righteous nature could restrain themselves from ridding the world of such a vile, disgusting, and evil thing.  To be human, a person must have humanity and this creature that was smote down by the accused was devoid of humanity.  A verdict of not guilty is the only just result of this trial.  If his god desires he show more restraint in the use of force, then let his god hand down judgement and punishment.  It is not for this court to decide."

*Shaking his head, Tydon whispers a prayer to Torm to aid the accused holy warrior.  He then awaits for the court's decision.*


----------



## Abraxas

Forgive my delay, I was called to care for one of my charges.


There are higher laws than those of man.  It is a necessary duty of all our brethren to uphold these higher laws - regardless of what secular authorities might claim.  Our accused brother may suffer the affront of others questioning his actions but he should not be subjected to such from those who also follow the path.

How many of us would follow every person crossing our path that, in the words of the accused, appears "shifty".  We would all be led on a merry chase to and fro by the multitudes that exist in the realms if that were to happen.  It was Divine Guidance that singled out this miscreant and prompted pursuit.  It was Divine Guidance that brought him to the scene of perversions past and it was Divine Justice that he stopped future affronts to all that is good.

He Is *Innocent.*

I wish him well.


----------



## Torm

Well, heck, I just realized I missed good Barconius's vote way back on his introductory post - Guilty. That ties it up 6-6. I never thought this would be this close.

We await your opinion, Paul Excelsior....


----------



## Quasqueton

> We await your opinion, Paul Excelsior....



Paul stands up, greatly surprised by this opportunity.

"On the charge of Conduct Unbecoming a Paladin, I find Vindicator Innocent."

Paul Excelsior

Edit: changed "Not Guilty" to "Innocent".


----------



## Nightfall

Torm said:
			
		

> Well, heck, I just realized I missed good Barconius's vote way back on his introductory post - Guilty. That ties it up 6-6. I never thought this would be this close.
> 
> We await your opinion, Paul Excelsior....



My apologises as well good sir for speaking softly. But I am, as said of me, a man of deeds and not words. And I judge a man by his deeds as well as his intent. I do look forward to seeing what this august body will decide. Regardless of the outcome, I stand firm with you all and by my own decision.


----------



## drunkmoogle

Valna Vitrano said:
			
		

> Vindicator, you have been found innocent of the charges brought against you, by a vote of 7-6. I too am surprised with how close the jury pool has voted. Though you may continue your paladinhood unfettered, may this event serve as a warning to you to be less swift with your blade and swifter on wit and and wiser in judgement.
> 
> Now, let me buy you a drink. You have been through much today.




Torm, you're brilliant. But will this solve the issue between Vindie and his GM? Followups, please!


----------



## Torm

Very Well.

Vindicator, your actions have been examined by this Council of Paladins, and you have been found Innocent. If it is in the hands of this council, the powers and abilities granted unto you by your god will remain vested as they are.

Nonetheless, it was also the opinion of several members of this august group that you acted in some small bit of haste. In recognition of that, and at the request of Torm, God of Paladins, you are hereby ordered to use what resources are at your disposal to make certain that all parties that were responsible for any part of the little girl's abuse are brought to justice, and that her future care is, within reason, assured.

Also, you are cautioned that, in the future, you take a moment to consider whether your actions serve the greatest good possible. As you are aware, it is a Paladin's duty to serve good to his or her utmost potential to do so.

Godspeed.

- Sandelphon, Foreman of the Council

This Council stands adjourned. You may all discuss freely, now.


----------



## Sejs

drunkmoogle said:
			
		

> Torm, you're brilliant.




Seconded.   

This was quite fun, Torm, and hopefully useful to Vindicator and his DM.   Thank you for putting it together.


----------



## Henry

Simply awesome.


----------



## Abraxas

This was very interesting and entertaining.

Well, I've got to get back to Daggerdale and help Randal Mourn get rid of some acursed vampires - you're all invited to come along and assist if you are so inclined.


----------



## Taren Nighteyes

*How right you are.*



			
				Henry said:
			
		

> Simply awesome.




How eloquently put.  I couldn't have said it better myself.


----------



## Torm

Thank you, Ladies and Gentlemen, thank you.

:::bows, curtsies, etc:::


----------



## Nightfall

Sandelphon, my thanks for allowing me the prilivege to serve.


----------



## historian

I'm no paladin but I must say that was impressive, most impressive.


----------



## Rackhir

Westwind said:
			
		

> _
> 
> My most honored and revered Lord Arioch,_




Ah, do you realize that Arioch is the primary lord (god) of Chaos in the Elric Saga? I'm not really sure that's a good person to be addressing comments from a paladin to.


----------



## Darklone

I second the call for feedback from Vindicator and his DM


----------



## SALADIN THE JUST

I'd created a ID for myself primarily to participate in these proceedings. Alas, it appears that I am late and a just ruling has been made by this august gathering of sacred knights. It took me some time to arrive from Amn. In any case, since I am here, allow me to introduce myself:

I am Emir Saladin Al'Kashan, (11th Level) Paladin and Sacred Knight of Tyr. Nephew to the present Sultan of Amn (Faerun). Youngest son of the 3rd in line to the Throne.

I would like to recdeive feedback from the Vindicator and his DM with regard to the Council's ruling.


----------



## JoeBlank

Very impressive. Good show, everyone.

If Vindicator and his DM agree to live by the judgment of this council they will have a cool campaign story to tell for years to come.


----------



## Vraille Darkfang

(Much thumping, thudding and general noise)

Dwarf in full-plate bursts in.

"I be Ullric Forgehammer, LG Paladin of the dwarven gods, Hail Claggidin & Moradin!  I am hear to hear....  Where's everyone got to?  Really, you shouldn't post those notices so high, we shorter folk have a hard time reaching them.  And really, do you need that many stairs?  It took me an hour just to get over here.

Well, I'm late and missed it.  As usual I suppose.  Well for what it matters to those still standing around.  I find nothing more valuable than freedom and mercy.  This girl only walks free today because of this man's actions.  Yea, the way he did it was rash and could have very well turned out worse.  (I hear the cult of the Assassins often dress up as beggars & hold young girls hostage as he described.  Thank Moradin that was not the case, otherwise one more Paladin would grace teh fugue plain & 1 young girl would still face torment unthinkable.

The lad lacked judgement, but he had heart.  One can be learned, the other one wither has or has not.  To condem him for killing a monster would be a greater travesty.  Who could condem a lad for smiting evil?  He needs a mentor, one who can show him how to temper mercy with justice, retribution with liberation.

If the court finds the lad guilty of anything, let it be rashness.  If ye find him guilty of murder... Well I have me some coin, enough to pay a cleric to Raise a body from the dead.  If ye find him guilty of murder, I shall to my best to have the victim brought back from beyond (I'll make damn sure he'll face justice mind ye!)  and take responsibility for the boy till his debt is paid to me.

Ah, well... Ain't no one here to listen to one old dwarf anyhow.  I'll be at the Drunken Goblin Inn, I think the stable boy there shows great promise one day."

(Missed this entier thread till now)
Vraille Darkfang


----------



## niastri

drunkmoogle said:
			
		

> Torm, you're brilliant. But will this solve the issue between Vindie and his GM? Followups, please!




lol@ solve arguments.  I imagine this just gave them both many more reasons why they are in fact correct....

I agree though, this was fantastic reading, and I am glad I checked the forums today.


----------



## GreyWanderer

I agree though, this was fantastic reading, and I am glad I checked the forums today.[/QUOTE]​

I agree as well. I must _scry _ here more often


Greywanderer, FairyMage of Falmog.


----------



## Westwind

That's pretty funny about the Arioch thing.  I've never read the books (gasp!), but the name is actually the NPC my DM devised as his primary contact/mentor in the Church of Tyr--I guess he has read the books and tought it was ironic.


----------



## shilsen

This has got to be the most entertaining paladin-related thread I've seen. Any chance we could keep you people on retainer for the next paladin debate ?


----------



## Abraxas

It does appear as that we had the full gamut of Paladin types in here.

We should discuss the paladin forcibly using a Helm of Opposite alignment on evil doers now.


----------



## drunkmoogle

shilsen said:
			
		

> This has got to be the most entertaining paladin-related thread I've seen. Any chance we could keep you people on retainer for the next paladin debate ?




When the need arises, I shall be there. Just bellow.

/ooc: I hate paladin threads. I really hate them. But this was fun .


----------



## Chronosome

Great thread...it's certainly inspiring me to play a paladin!


----------



## SALADIN THE JUST

shilsen said:
			
		

> This has got to be the most entertaining paladin-related thread I've seen. Any chance we could keep you people on retainer for the next paladin debate ?




Call and I shall answer if the issue in question is worthy of contemplation, deliberation and duscussion.

Does anyone still linger within these hallowed Halls of Justice?


----------



## Torm

SALADIN said:
			
		

> Does anyone still linger within these hallowed Halls of Justice?




I remain. I still await a follow-up from Vindicator and\or his DM. I am curious as to whether we helped or not.....


----------



## SALADIN THE JUST

Torm said:
			
		

> I remain. I still await a follow-up from Vindicator and\or his DM. I am curious as to whether we helped or not.....




Hail, and Salutations, comrade! I was hoping to meet the enlightened one who had the wisdom to start this thread and manage it well to assist our poor brethren, the Vindicator.  I await to hear the verdict of his DM. Having been a DM since 1987, I am well acquainted with the inordinate number of fine lines that one has to walk to ensure a memorable game for one and all. It is heartening to see that there are far more than just a handful out there who are as passionate about the Paladin class as I am. It was my first class when I first started D&D in 1985 and it was the last class I played when I decided to DM full-time.


----------



## Zimri

Simone Menden  Worshipper of Pistis Sophia and Ilmater yet remains awaiting an update from Vindicator the vindicated. Though I am monk and not paladin the paths are not terribly dissimilar in my experience, nor that of my companion. Zimri worshipper of both Raziel and Ilmater


----------



## MaxKaladin

SALADIN said:
			
		

> Does anyone still linger within these hallowed Halls of Justice?



A voice from the doorway answers:  "I cannot say I linger, having just arrived.  I am, however, here.  I am Max Kaladin, Paladin* of Torm and member of the Order of the Golden Lion.  It would appear I have arrived too late for my services to be needed."  

A tall, handsome man walks toward Saladin, each footstep echoing loudly in the nearly empty hall.  He wears full plate armor with a deep purple hue that seems to radiate from within the metal itself rather than being the result of any finish applied to the armor.  Under one arm he carries his helm while the holy symbol of his faith hangs from a plain chain around his neck. At his waist are two swords, one longer than the other.   

"I suppose there is no harm done as the verdict reached seems to have been the one I would have urged the assembled paladins to reach.  I must confess that I was just as enthusiastic in my punishment of evildoers in my youth, though I permit myself the conceit of believing that I now temper my actions with more wisdom than I did in my adventuring days.  While I suspect I would have done something similar had I encountered this situation back then, I hope that I would now take a few moments to handle the situation a bit more... judiciously.  You see, of all the news that has reached me of the the event and the debate surrounding it the lack of one thing has stood out in my mind.  That is the effect seeing a man killed right in front of her will have on the child in question.  Tormentor or not, witnessing such a thing can be very traumatic for children even in the harsh world we find outselves in.  She has suffered enough without having to witness such a thing.  Some might say that it is best to see justice done and that is true for some, but I suspect less so for most children.  No, I think it would have been better if the paladin in this case had removed the man from the girl's sight before visiting justice upon him."

_*  Yes, he's Lawful Good.  I don't think they allow any other kind of paladin, though I confess I haven't looked at the 3.x rules -- Max dates to the heyday of 2nd Edition._


----------



## SALADIN THE JUST

Zimri said:
			
		

> Simone Menden  Worshipper of Pistis Sophia and Ilmater yet remains awaiting an update from Vindicator the vindicated. Though I am monk and not paladin the paths are not terribly dissimilar in my experience, nor that of my companion. Zimri worshipper of both Raziel and Ilmater




Salutations, Simone! I have not yet expressed my views on this dilemma faced by our brethren , the Vindicator, so I will now, tho it is of little consequence:

While it may seem somewhat cowardly and dishonourable to have attacked the perpetrator of that vile crime from the back with little warning, one has to balance that against the gravity of the crime and the anguish experienced by the defenceless victim who will presumably be scarred for the rest of her mortal life. Furthermore, Paladins are mortals, as well, albeit ones who are expected to live and be measured against very high standards, hence certain degree of reasonableness and objectivity needs to be exercised before arriving at a conclusion about the Paladin's action. In short, in light of the crime and the age of the victim involved, the Vindicator's actions were justified to some extent, though he ought to factored his DM's hint into the equation and used the blunt side of his blade or the pommel of his sword to incapacitate his target so that he can face justice. And if he is truly concerned, he can take steps to monitor the outcome of his report to the local authorities, and if it seems like they are incapable of delivering justice, then he would be justified to take matters into his own hands. At which point, he would have extended due respect and regard for the local laws and law enforcers and simultaneously delievered justice as it is due to be delievered at the end of the day! - At least thats what I would've done.


----------



## SALADIN THE JUST

MaxKaladin said:
			
		

> A voice from the doorway answers:  "I cannot say I linger, having just arrived.  I am, however, here.  I am Max Kaladin, Paladin* of Torm and member of the Order of the Golden Lion.  It would appear I have arrived too late for my services to be needed."  ]
> 
> Greetings Max! I am honoured to meet a Brethren. I am Emir Saladin Al'Kashan, Paladin of the Righteous Tyr, Nephew to the present Sultan of Amn and Champion of his youngest Daughter. I am in agreement with thy assessment of the issue. While I may not possess the extent of thy deep wisdom, gained from thy long years of practice, I have been well prepared for my role and perphaps may gain more still from thy deep well. That poor child was unduly subjected to far more violence than is natural and further witness to a gruesome end to her perpetrator, hence, as you have rightly pointed out, it would have been far more preferable to have removed the perpetrator from the vicinity to be dealt with some place else, however, in all fairness to Vindicator, when one arrives on scene to witness such vile a crime being delivered upon such innocent a victim, it would take someone with astounding wisdom or gross indifference to stay the sword arm from delivering rightful justice.


----------



## Zimri

MaxKaladin said:
			
		

> A voice from the doorway answers:  "I cannot say I linger, having just arrived.  I am, however, here.  I am Max Kaladin, Paladin* of Torm and member of the Order of the Golden Lion.  It would appear I have arrived too late for my services to be needed."
> 
> A tall, handsome man walks toward Saladin, each footstep echoing loudly in the nearly empty hall.  He wears full plate armor with a deep purple hue that seems to radiate from within the metal itself rather than being the result of any finish applied to the armor.  Under one arm he carries his helm while the holy symbol of his faith hangs from a plain chain around his neck. At his waist are two swords, one longer than the other.
> 
> "I suppose there is no harm done as the verdict reached seems to have been the one I would have urged the assembled paladins to reach.  I must confess that I was just as enthusiastic in my punishment of evildoers in my youth, though I permit myself the conceit of believing that I now temper my actions with more wisdom than I did in my adventuring days.  While I suspect I would have done something similar had I encountered this situation back then, I hope that I would now take a few moments to handle the situation a bit more... judiciously.  You see, of all the news that has reached me of the the event and the debate surrounding it the lack of one thing has stood out in my mind.  That is the effect seeing a man killed right in front of her will have on the child in question.  Tormentor or not, witnessing such a thing can be very traumatic for children even in the harsh world we find outselves in.  She has suffered enough without having to witness such a thing.  Some might say that it is best to see justice done and that is true for some, but I suspect less so for most children.  No, I think it would have been better if the paladin in this case had removed the man from the girl's sight before visiting justice upon him."
> 
> _*  Yes, he's Lawful Good.  I don't think they allow any other kind of paladin, though I confess I haven't looked at the 3.x rules -- Max dates to the heyday of 2nd Edition._




*The raven and mauve haired Simone rises from her spot on the pew that served as part of the visitors gallery for this court. Her ice blue eyes meet those of the newly arrived.*

Greetings and salutations from Ilmater, The Celestial Hebdomad, and myself. Please forgive me for not bowing. Pistis requires that her servants own and wear little and I would not want to risk my robe falling open in this sanctified place.

I did speak of the trauma that would befall the child at such an occurance. Though admittedly not before this court as I was ill quallified to stand beside so many just and noble persons and offer them instruction. My comments were made amongst the crowd in the village square that lead to these proceedings.

Had I or my companion been on the panel or the swing vote alternate Vindicator would be atoning, though I suspect that neither his loss of stature or his penance would have been all too heavy a burden. He is a good man with a strong heart. In time I am sure he shall learn to temper his justice with thought and mercy.


----------



## Zimri

SALADIN said:
			
		

> Salutations, Simone! I have not yet expressed my views on this dilemma faced by our brethren , the Vindicator, so I will now, tho it is of little consequence:
> 
> While it may seem somewhat cowardly and dishonourable to have attacked the perpetrator of that vile crime from the back with little warning, one has to balance that against the gravity of the crime and the anguish experienced by the defenceless victim who will presumably be scarred for the rest of her mortal life. Furthermore, Paladins are mortals, as well, albeit ones who are expected to live and be measured against very high standards, hence certain degree of reasonableness and objectivity needs to be exercised before arriving at a conclusion about the Paladin's action. In short, in light of the crime and the age of the victim involved, the Vindicator's actions were justified to some extent, though he ought to factored his DM's hint into the equation and used the blunt side of his blade or the pommel of his sword to incapacitate his target so that he can face justice. And if he is truly concerned, he can take steps to monitor the outcome of his report to the local authorities, and if it seems like they are incapable of delivering justice, then he would be justified to take matters into his own hands. At which point, he would have extended due respect and regard for the local laws and law enforcers and simultaneously delievered justice as it is due to be delievered at the end of the day! - At least thats what I would've done.




The words of a wise and just person are never truly wasted and are always of import to me Saladin. And you are such a man. All the people that were part of the proceedings and all I have met back here in the gallery are rife with good and noble intentions. It is a good thing that we all weigh things differently if not I fear these lands would be stagnant and corrupt.


----------



## SALADIN THE JUST

Zimri said:
			
		

> *The raven and mauve haired Simone rises from her spot on the pew that served as part of the visitors gallery for this court. Her ice blue eyes meet those of the newly arrived.*
> 
> Greetings and salutations from Ilmater, The Celestial Hebdomad, and myself. Please forgive me for not bowing. Pistis requires that her servants own and wear little and I would not want to risk my robe falling open in this sanctified place.
> 
> I did speak of the trauma that would befall the child at such an occurance. Though admittedly not before this court as I was ill quallified to stand beside so many just and noble persons and offer them instruction. My comments were made amongst the crowd in the village square that lead to these proceedings.
> 
> Had I or my companion been on the panel or the swing vote alternate Vindicator would be atoning, though I suspect that neither his loss of stature or his penance would have been all too heavy a burden. He is a good man with a strong heart. In time I am sure he shall learn to temper his justice with thought and mercy.




*Standing at a tall 6 1/2 feet and broadly built due to some part of Northmen blood running in his veins. Dressed in a completely black traditional costume of Amn, topped with a blood red turban enjeweled with a fist sized diamond, dusky skinned with a well trimmed goatee and deep olive green eyes, Saladin strides forward with a barely a sound from his weatherworn sandals and greets all gathered with a smile as warm as the light in his eyes. A platinum Holy Symbol of Tyr hanging prominently on a thick platinum chain from his neck*


----------



## SALADIN THE JUST

Zimri said:
			
		

> The words of a wise and just person are never truly wasted and are always of import to me Saladin. And you are such a man. All the people that were part of the proceedings and all I have met back here in the gallery are rife with good and noble intentions. It is a good thing that we all weigh things differently if not I fear these lands would be stagnant and corrupt.




You extend to me far more credit than I feel I am worthy of, but I thank you for thy kind words. As always, I strive to be guided by the sure hand of Tyr, for I am nothing more than his humble instrument to be used to rid these tumultuous lands of vile injustice, keen;y tempered by wisdom and honour. Difference is always good, for it will eventually ensure an outcome uniquely appropriate for the issue at hand.


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## Zimri

We are all but tools of the multiverse, ensuring that things work out the way they are supposed to. Do not mistake that statement for neutrality howevr. Evil must be fought. If you slay one evil perhaps it stays dead and perhaps it just gets stronger and comes back. If instead you turn it to good not only has evil assuredly lost a soul and grown weaker but good has gained one and is stronger.

That having been said had I been the one to walk in on that horrid act the perpetrators life would have lasted marginally longer as my ability to subdue is greater than that of vindicator. Once the child was saved, however the perpetrator would have been soundly beaten by an unarmed, unarmored (heck naked even) young woman in the middle of the town square. I am no paladin, the rules for my actions are not nearly as strict. He would have known my Lord was Ilmater, and he would know what being broken feels like.


----------



## Hypersmurf

You know, I count something in excess of two dozen paladins in the same building.

There's gotta be _something_ in the Book of Vile Darkness to cover occasions like this!

-Hyp.


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## Henry

Try as I might, I cannot say, "Max Kaladin, Tormish Paladin" with a straight face. 



> You know, I count something in excess of two dozen paladins in the same building.
> 
> There's gotta be something in the Book of Vile Darkness to cover occasions like this!
> 
> -Hyp.




I believe there is... let's see... Ah, here it is! New Feat - _"Run like Hell," _ p.49...


----------



## Abraxas

I believe its covered in the "Knowing When To Run if You're Evil" section. 

_Drat - Henry beat me by a minute !!_


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## Zimri

Oh SURE. If I were vile I would be thinking of a way to "de paladinize" or kill the whole lot. Running would not be on my to do list.


----------



## Abraxas

But if you were vile you wouldn't play well with others and 1 vs 24 aren't good odds


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## Agemegos

Zimri said:
			
		

> It is a good thing that we all weigh things differently if not I fear these lands would be stagnant and corrupt.




I am afraid that we are far from stagnation in County Durham. The Scots have just crossed the border into Cumbria, and I will be obliged to serve with my lord fighting fellow Christians over a futile border dispute. _Kyrie eleison_!

As for corruption, since I first discovered the ability that I understand to be what you call '_Detect Evil_' I have only met one person who was not accompanied by at least a whiff of the stench of sin. Which is a very melancholy realisation.


----------



## Sejs

> This has got to be the most entertaining paladin-related thread I've seen. Any chance we could keep you people on retainer for the next paladin debate?



 I'd be honored to contribute in this capacity again, should it arise.



> Does anyone still linger within these hallowed Halls of Justice?



 *looking up from where he had been rummaging through his leather satchel, and hearing Sandelphon's comment, Valentine nods* Mm.  I'm still here as well, and at least in part for the same reasons.  I'd like to hear from Vindicator if our procedings were of any help to him.  That and I've got a bit of a wait ahead of me before my friend comes to pick me up in any event.  I figure here's as good a place as any to bide my time, heh.


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## Agemegos

shilsen said:
			
		

> This has got to be the most entertaining paladin-related thread I've seen. Any chance we could keep you people on retainer for the next paladin debate ?




I will serve if I am called. But I beg Lord Torm that I might be excused.


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## Quasqueton

> You know, I count something in excess of two dozen paladins in the same building.



Would this room be considered the safest place in the world right now? (Assuming you are not evil.)

It is cool, I can imagine that this is perhaps the only courtroom where no one thinks it necessary to disarm everyone entering. I can picture 30 paladins in court, all with their various weapons and armor, yet no thought of violence is even considered.

Quasqueton


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## MaxKaladin

SALADIN said:
			
		

> however, in all fairness to Vindicator, when one arrives on scene to witness such vile a crime being delivered upon such innocent a victim, it would take someone with astounding wisdom or gross indifference to stay the sword arm from delivering rightful justice.





"And it is for this reason that I believe he should be considered innocent.  We must not forget that he was suddenly and unexpectedly confronted with a great evil.  Even under the best of circumstances, it can be very difficult to avoid springing into action and visiting the righteous fury of ones diety upon such a vile evildoer.  We must not forget that Vindicator had only moments to act and we must make some allowance for not having the time to fully weigh all of the options and considerations others have thought of after the fact when they are not under the pressure of time or the shock of encountering such evil so suddenly.  I suppose some might argue that a paladin should grow accustomed to such in the line of duty, but I would counter that any paladin who becomes accustomed to such evil may well become unsitable to remain a paladin. "


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## MaxKaladin

Henry said:
			
		

> Try as I might, I cannot say, "Max Kaladin, Tormish Paladin" with a straight face.



 Well, that's probably because the name was created as a joke for a one shot in which I was playing a paladin, but the one-shot became a campaign and the character became a serious character.  The name, however, stuck and Max became one of my longest running characters ever.


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## MaxKaladin

Zimri said:
			
		

> I did speak of the trauma that would befall the child at such an occurance. Though admittedly not before this court as I was ill quallified to stand beside so many just and noble persons and offer them instruction. My comments were made amongst the crowd in the village square that lead to these proceedings.



 "Greetings.  I did intend to say that that consideration was not mentioned in these proceedings. I think it a relevant point and is certainly something Vindicator should consider in the future, but it should not be a cause for him to lose his paladinhood.  Perhaps I err in favor of the virtue of mercy, but I would submit that it was a serious mistake, but one that can be learned from and that the lesson will serve to make him a better paladin in the future.  I feel stripping someone of their calling is best done that they act against the spirit of their calling and I do not feel that was the case here. 

Being a paladin is an exercise in balancing the demands of the various ideals and virtues you are charged with upholding.  Many times you will find that those ideals are in conflict and that one must decide which ideal is most important in the context of the specific situation or which can be neglected with the least harm.  Different paladins can choose different paths and there are obviously those who feel Vindicator chose the wrong path.  I do not feel that he abandoned the path, however, and thus do not feel he should be stripped of his calling.  

Penance, meditation, contemplation.   Whatever you wish to call it, I feel that it would do no harm and would certainly help Vindicator judge wisely in the future for it is our nature as mortals to learn from our mistakes.  All paladins should take the time to contemplate their actions and consider if anything could be done better the next time such a situation was encountered even if none have suggested that the paladin has been anything but exemplary in his actions.  Believing that one cannot act wrongly and that all of ones decisions are above reproach is dangerously prideful and that, too, is something a paladin must avoid being.  Indeed, I was a proud paladin in my younger days -- as well as quick to battle as Vindicator seems to have been.  My quest for my steed was largely intended to show me the error of my ways and make a better paladin of me.  I would be remiss if I suggested that Vindicator should not be given the same opportunity to gain insight into his shortcomings and overcome them as I had.  After all, paladinhood is not a destination, it is a path albeit a narrow one.  One cannot stray far from the path without falling off, but there also time to grab someone who starts to stray and pull them back onto the path before they fall completely off and I feel that is what should be done for Vindicator.  

But, perhaps being so long winded as I is also a violation of some virtue, though I confess I have not stopped to consider which one that might be.  "


----------



## Cannibal_Kender

Sir Prendergast, Paladin of St. Cuthbert, LG

He should keep his paladinhood. The foul villain would have hung anyway.


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## Torm

Agemegos said:
			
		

> I will serve if I am called. But I beg Lord Torm that I might be excused.




Of course. We will let you know if we find out anything regarding Vindicator's ultimate status....


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## Agemegos

Cannibal_Kender said:
			
		

> Sir Prendergast, Paladin of St. Cuthbert, LG
> 
> He should keep his paladinhood. The foul villain would have hung anyway.




With respect, that is very far from being the only point.

One other point is that a paladin is required to act with honour, and many of us doubt that stiking and unarmed man from behind without warning is honourable.

A second point is that a paladin is required to respect legitimate authority. By taking the law into his own hands, Sir Vindicator showed disrespect to the established authorities. And if there were no legitimate authorities, then he treated his own authority with contempt and disrespect by a shabby, disorderly, secretive, hasty proceeding in a back room.

A third point is that a paladin is under some circumstances required to act as judge, jury and executioner, but Sir Vindicator shirked the duties of judge and jury. viz, the duty of judge to demonstrate for all to see that agents of justice are serving justice and not some private end, the duty of a jury to hear and impartially consider any defence. A paladin is required to bring law to lawless lands: Sir Vindicator did not. His actions brought the law into disrepute, and will tend to promote suspicion and feud. As a result of his conduct, some people will turn to private vengeance instead of to the law, and innocent people who find themselves in suspicious circumstances will fear the law as their persecutor instead of loving it as their protector.

A fourth point is that only a person of Lawful alignment is capable of being a paladin. A person of lawful alignment feels in his bones the importance of the law being administered openly and with demonstrated impartiality. He feels in his bones that the exerecise of authority and judgment must not be undertaken lightly, unadvisedly, or wantonly, but reverently, discreetly, advisedly, soberly, and in the fear of God, with due attention to the reasons that authority are established. The reckless, intemperate, disorderly way in which Sir Vindicator carried out his back-room slaughter, and the fact that even in the aftermath he _saw nothing wrong_ in what he had done raises a grave suspicion that he is not of lawful alignment.

Finally: by the grace of God Sir Vindicator turned out in this case to be correct in his hasty judgment. But if he keeps on as he is, failing to consider any possible defnce, one day he will stumble across circumstance in which the superficial appearances are gravely misleading. And if on that occasion he executes a sentence of death without allowing for the possibility of a defence, an innocent man will die at his hand. And yet he shows no sign of recognising that his haste was wrong.


You judge the case in isolation, with regard only to the outcome on the individual. That is a Chaotic standard. As paladins, we must apply a Lawful standard. We must consider the means as well as the ends. We must consider the wider effects, in for example promoting Law or Chaos in the community. We must have an eye of what may reasonably be expected if the actions we judge are followed as a rule.

I did consider those issues. And I did apply such a standard. And as it happens I voted as you did: for acquital on any charge that could result in Sir Vindicator ceasing to be a paladin. But it alarms me, my lord, that you seem not to have considered all the points, and seem not to have applied a Lawful standard.


----------



## Agemegos

Torm said:
			
		

> Of course. We will let you know if we find out anything regarding Vindicator's ultimate status....




Thank you, my lord. A Christian who judges does so in peril of his soul. I pray that I will survive being judged with the justice with which I have judged Sir Vindicator. _Kyrie eleison_.


----------



## Agemegos

MaxKaladin said:
			
		

> Being a paladin is an exercise in balancing the demands of the various ideals and virtues you are charged with upholding.  Many times you will find that those ideals are in conflict and that one must decide which ideal is most important in the context of the specific situation or which can be neglected with the least harm.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> Penance, meditation, contemplation.   Whatever you wish to call it, I feel that it would do no harm and would certainly help Vindicator judge wisely in the future for it is our nature as mortals to learn from our mistakes.  All paladins should take the time to contemplate their actions and consider if anything could be done better the next time such a situation was encountered even if none have suggested that the paladin has been anything but exemplary in his actions.  Believing that one cannot act wrongly and that all of ones decisions are above reproach is dangerously prideful and that, too, is something a paladin must avoid being.




_Amen_


----------



## Agemegos

Agemegos said:
			
		

> With respect,….




OOC: I ought perhaps to explain that Edmund Edwinson is a Saxon (or, strictly speaking, an Angle), and that if you argue with him about Justice you will get an earful. As a certain Norman Baron observed to his son:

"The Saxon is not like us Normans. His manners are not so polite.
"But he never means anything serious til he talks about 'Justice' and 'right'.
"When he stands like an ox in the furrow, with his sullen eyes set on your own,
"And grumbles 'This isn't fair dealing', my son, leave the Saxon alone.

"You can horsewhip your Gascony archers, or torture your Picardy spears;
"But don't try that game on the Saxon, or you'll have the whole brood round your ears.
"From the richest old thane in the county, to the poorest chained serf in the fields,
"They'll be at you and on you like hornets, and if you are wise, you will yield."

-                   Rudyard Kipling _Norman and Saxon_

The hearing is over and the verdict in. I am happy enough to go on playing this game, but suggest that no-one take it for other than that. Okay?


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## Torm

Agemegos said:
			
		

> The hearing is over and the verdict in. I am happy enough to go on playing this game, but suggest that no-one take it for other than that. Okay?




Not sure if I missed something - _was_ someone taking it for other than that?

The only thing _I_ may be "taking it for" outside of an opportunity for us to have some fun, is that I would still like to know whether it was of any use to Vindicator or his DM....


----------



## Chupacabra

An eye-opening and cliche-bending thread.  Very informative, especially to someone like me, who always eschewed playing a paladin b/c I felt they were too limited in outlook and thus, too limited in action.  How wrong I was.

Good work.


----------



## Agemegos

SALADIN said:
			
		

> …when one arrives on scene to witness such vile a crime being delivered upon such innocent a victim, it would take someone with astounding wisdom or gross indifference to stay the sword arm from delivering rightful justice.




My lord, I am happy to report that men are wiser than you dare to hope. Such crimes and worse are more common than we can understand without horror. And yet to our great good fortune bailliffs and justices across the land, and other servants of the law in other lands stay their hands in respect of Justice.

In my father's time in England it would have been up to the victim's family to avenge a crime such as this. And as a malefactor's family are the last to believe evil of their kinsman, the result all too often would have been a feud. But since the reign of the previous King William the people of England have learned that justice for such crimes is available in the courts of the King's justices, and these proceed with such conspicuous impartiality and are so scrupulous to consider the defence of the accused, and that the punishments for crimes are both just and adequate. And so we no longer seek private vengeance if we believe that our cause is just. The country is much more peaceful and orderly now, and even the chroniclers in their monasteries comment that the crime of rape in particular is much less rampant than it was aforetimes.

It is perhaps because of this that the English _fyrd_ has been much more faithful to two successive kings than the Norman barons have been to either.

The due and public process of the courts, and the peace and order that it brings to all, are a precious jewel, a golden thread that I pray will never be broken in my land.


----------



## Agemegos

Torm said:
			
		

> Not sure if I missed something - _was_ someone taking it for other than that?




Not yet. But I feared that my charcter's verbosity was about to try some players' patience.


----------



## Torm

It would appear a response has appeared, although in a different thread altogether.   

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=89630


----------



## SALADIN THE JUST

MaxKaladin said:
			
		

> "And it is for this reason that I believe he should be considered innocent.  We must not forget that he was suddenly and unexpectedly confronted with a great evil.  Even under the best of circumstances, it can be very difficult to avoid springing into action and visiting the righteous fury of ones diety upon such a vile evildoer.  We must not forget that Vindicator had only moments to act and we must make some allowance for not having the time to fully weigh all of the options and considerations others have thought of after the fact when they are not under the pressure of time or the shock of encountering such evil so suddenly.  I suppose some might argue that a paladin should grow accustomed to such in the line of duty, but I would counter that any paladin who becomes accustomed to such evil may well become unsitable to remain a paladin. "




Ditto, mein comrade!


----------



## SALADIN THE JUST

Agemegos
A fourth point is that only a person of Lawful alignment is capable of being a paladin. A person of lawful alignment feels in his bones the importance of the law being administered openly and with demonstrated impartiality. He feels in his bones that the exerecise of authority and judgment must not be undertaken lightly said:
			
		

> saw nothing wrong[/i] in what he had done raises a grave suspicion that he is not of lawful alignment.QUOTE]
> 
> NEVER "in Fear of God", Brother, EVER In Love with GOD!!!


----------



## SALADIN THE JUST

Agemegos said:
			
		

> My lord, I am happy to report that men are wiser than you dare to hope. Such crimes and worse are more common than we can understand without horror. And yet to our great good fortune bailliffs and justices across the land, and other servants of the law in other lands stay their hands in respect of Justice.
> 
> In my father's time in England it would have been up to the victim's family to avenge a crime such as this. And as a malefactor's family are the last to believe evil of their kinsman, the result all too often would have been a feud. But since the reign of the previous King William the people of England have learned that justice for such crimes is available in the courts of the King's justices, and these proceed with such conspicuous impartiality and are so scrupulous to consider the defence of the accused, and that the punishments for crimes are both just and adequate. And so we no longer seek private vengeance if we believe that our cause is just. The country is much more peaceful and orderly now, and even the chroniclers in their monasteries comment that the crime of rape in particular is much less rampant than it was aforetimes.
> 
> It is perhaps because of this that the English _fyrd_ has been much more faithful to two successive kings than the Norman barons have been to either.
> 
> The due and public process of the courts, and the peace and order that it brings to all, are a precious jewel, a golden thread that I pray will never be broken in my land.




I appreciate your point, good sir!


----------



## SALADIN THE JUST

Zimri said:
			
		

> We are all but tools of the multiverse, ensuring that things work out the way they are supposed to. Do not mistake that statement for neutrality howevr. Evil must be fought. If you slay one evil perhaps it stays dead and perhaps it just gets stronger and comes back. If instead you turn it to good not only has evil assuredly lost a soul and grown weaker but good has gained one and is stronger.
> 
> That having been said had I been the one to walk in on that horrid act the perpetrators life would have lasted marginally longer as my ability to subdue is greater than that of vindicator. Once the child was saved, however the perpetrator would have been soundly beaten by an unarmed, unarmored (heck naked even) young woman in the middle of the town square. I am no paladin, the rules for my actions are not nearly as strict. He would have known my Lord was Ilmater, and he would know what being broken feels like.




I am humbled by another facet of wisdom and justice. Something I will take aboard as I continuously learn something new and enlightening each day.


----------



## Agemegos

SALADIN said:
			
		

> NEVER "in Fear of God", Brother, EVER In Love with GOD!!!




I take your point, Sir Saladin, and agree with the thrust of it. Nevertheless it is traditional in my religion thus to express the truth that the faithful one obeys without argument and without thought of transgression, submits fully to the will of God.


----------



## Zimri

SALADIN said:
			
		

> NEVER "in Fear of God", Brother, EVER In Love with GOD!!!




EWWWWWW in love with my own father even Simone doesn't go that far. Thats just sick 8)


----------

