# [Complete Champion] Spontaneous Divination



## EvilGM (May 16, 2007)

One of the wizard alternative class features is spontaneous divination. This feature replaces one of the wizard bonus feats and lets them sacrifice a prepared spell to cast any divination spell of equal or lower level.

The feature doesn't specify the spell has to be in your spellbook, or even arcane or divine. It just says any spell of the divination school.

It seems a tad powerful and something every wizard would give up a bonus feat for.

What do you think?


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## evilbob (May 16, 2007)

That sounds pretty cool.

Kinda sucks for diviners, though.  Why bother specializing?


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## IanB (May 16, 2007)

This is one of the ones that made me raise my eyebrows a bit too. I would be inclined to require the spells spontaneously cast to at least be in the wizard's spellbook.


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## pawsplay (May 17, 2007)

What the...?


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## TYPO5478 (May 17, 2007)

evilbob said:
			
		

> That sounds pretty cool.
> 
> Kinda sucks for diviners, though.  Why bother specializing?



Well, you'd still get the extra spells per day and +2 on spellcraft checks...


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## evilbob (May 17, 2007)

Spellcraft:  true.  But extra spells per day:  that's kinda my point.  _Everyone_ gets extra spells per day for divining:  these include _all their spells_.  You would just get exactly one more spell (per level) do that with, which isn't too remarkable.  (And only one prohibited school, which is a pittance they've already thrown diviners.)

And the whole "one of your bonus spells must be from this school" is actually a drawback, if it actually works the way the OP said - no one would ever need to learn a divination spell again, so you're effectively learning only 1 new spell per level.  Overall verdict:  sucks for diviners.  

Of course, the full text might include some kind of perk for someone who specialized...  We're just speculating at the moment.


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## TYPO5478 (May 17, 2007)

evilbob said:
			
		

> Spellcraft:  true.  But extra spells per day:  that's kinda my point.  _Everyone_ gets extra spells per day for divining:  these include _all their spells_.



No, only diviners get extra spells per day for divining.  Other specialists get extra spells per day for their particular schools. Generalists get no extra spells per day because they haven't specialized in a school (obviously I'm not referring to extra spells from high Int; you're right that everyone gets those, but on the other hand they aren't restricted by school).



			
				evilbob said:
			
		

> And the whole "one of your bonus spells must be from this school" is actually a drawback, if it actually works the way the OP said - no one would ever need to learn a divination spell again, so you're effectively learning only 1 new spell per level.



I don't think the rules say that one of the spells a specialist learns every new level must be from his selected school.  They just say that his extra spell *slot* must be dedicated to casting a spell from his selected school.  He can still learn 2 spells per level.  For example, a level 7 diviner who sacrificed necromancy could learn an enchantment spell and a transmutation spell at level 8; he doesn't *have* to choose a divination spell if he doesn't want to.

But you're right: if he doesn't have to actually know the divination spell he wants to cast, there's no reason to learn it in the first place.  But this is actually an *advantage* (probably too good an advantage): he can just sacrifice his open bonus slot to cast any divination spell and spend his spellbook learning spells he *can't* cast spontaneously.


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## Nail (May 17, 2007)

EvilGM said:
			
		

> What do you think?



Please quote the actual rules text.  Thanks!


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## evilbob (May 17, 2007)

TYPO5478 said:
			
		

> No, only diviners get extra spells per day for divining.



I believe you have missed my point... and then were kind enough to explain specialist wizards to me.    I'll try again, but this time please assume I know what specializing does:  yes, only diviners get an actual extra spell per day that is devoted to divining.  But any wizard with this feat can use _any_ of their spells per day for divining.  Which is _not functionally equivalent_ to having one extra spell, but _like_ having all your spells be "extra divining spells."  If this doesn't make sense, feel free to completely ignore it.  



			
				TYPO5478 said:
			
		

> I don't think the rules say that one of the spells a specialist learns every new level must be from his selected school.



Huh, you know I could have sworn that was in the PHB, but I can't find it in the SRD, either.  I'll have to look again, but I guess I'm wrong.



			
				Nail said:
			
		

> Please quote the actual rules text. Thanks!



Actually, I went by a game store at lunch and they had this book and I looked up the variant rule.  I cannot quote you the exact text, but it pretty much says exactly what the OP said:  a wizard may cast "any" divination spell, and there is no mention of any kind of restriction (unless I just missed it, which is possible).

Now, whether or not "any" specifically means "any in your spellbook" is probably open to debate, simply because a wizard cannot normally cast anything not in his spellbook - without a use-item or another spellbook, anyway - which would seem to include any spell covered by this ability, but then again wizards can't convert spells, either, so it's hard to say.  (And would a scroll or borrowed spellbook count as a possible source?)  And I'm GUESSING that it would more-or-less restrict the wizard to arcane spells, since a wizard can only use arcane spells normally, but that's certainly fair for debate as well.  In any case, I'm guessing this will be errata-ed SOON.


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## IanB (May 17, 2007)

The one-of-the-spells-must-be-from-your-school rule was in 3.0; it appears to be gone in 3.5.


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## IanB (May 17, 2007)

I have the book (at home, not with me) and it is indeed pretty much as the original poster states.

To be honest I think this book needed one more going-over by a rules person. There are a number of little things I noticed (spells that allow certain actions not defining what action type they are, etc.) that will require rulings.


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## EvilGM (May 17, 2007)

exact wording -

"You can spontaneously cast any spell of the divination school by sacrificing a prepared spell of equal or greater level. For example, if you suddenly have need of the 2nd lvl spell locate object, you can sacrifice a prepared 2nd lvl spell (such as mirror image) or any prepared spell of a higher level to cast it on the spot."


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## TYPO5478 (May 17, 2007)

evilbob said:
			
		

> I believe you have missed my point...



I didn't realize you were referring only to characters who had taken the feat.

Still, it's not really extra spell slots in the sense of actually being able to cast *more* spells in a day.  Just different spells.  A level 7 generalist with Int 18 gets a total of 18 spells per day.  A level 7 diviner with Int 18 gets 23 spells per day, but one from each level has to be a divination spell.  If they both take this feat and then cast 18 spells, the generalist has to rest, but the diviner can still cast 5 more spells.

I see what you're saying though.    



			
				evilbob said:
			
		

> Huh, you know I could have sworn that was in the PHB, but I can't find it in the SRD, either.  I'll have to look again, but I guess I'm wrong.



I can relate: I could have sworn specialist wizards got a bonus on the save DC from spells of their chosen school, but I can't find that rule either.  Maybe that's another change from 3.0...?


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## Corsair (May 17, 2007)

Why are the divine books always the messiest?


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## TYPO5478 (May 17, 2007)

EvilGM said:
			
		

> exact wording -
> 
> "You can spontaneously cast any spell of the divination school by sacrificing a prepared spell of equal or greater level. For example, if you suddenly have need of the 2nd lvl spell locate object, you can sacrifice a prepared 2nd lvl spell (such as mirror image) or any prepared spell of a higher level to cast it on the spot."



Well, apparently you can't sacrifice an open spell slot.  Which means diviners would still have to learn divination spells to fill their slots with before they could spontaneously convert them into other divination spells.  They'd only need one for each level, but still that's pretty lame.  On the other hand, it appears that any other specialist could drop their specialty school slot to cast a divination spell.

You're right, evilbob, this feat seems to screw diviners.


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## Pickaxe (May 18, 2007)

TYPO5478 said:
			
		

> I don't think the rules say that one of the spells a specialist learns every new level must be from his selected school.  They just say that his extra spell *slot* must be dedicated to casting a spell from his selected school.




Actually the rules do require one of the two new spells gained at each level come from the specialist school; the rule is in the magic chapter, in the section on adding spells to a spell book.



			
				SRD said:
			
		

> Spells Gained at a New Level
> 
> Wizards perform a certain amount of spell research between adventures. Each time a character attains a new wizard level, she gains two spells of her choice to add to her spellbook. The two free spells must be of spell levels she can cast. If she has chosen to specialize in a school of magic, one of the two free spells must be from her specialty school.




--Axe


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## TYPO5478 (May 18, 2007)

Pickaxe said:
			
		

> Actually the rules do require one of the two new spells gained at each level come from the specialist school; the rule is in the magic chapter, in the section on adding spells to a spell book.



Huh.

I wonder why they took that out of the school specialization rules from 3.0 to 3.5.  Or maybe it was never in there?  I'm not particularly familiar with 3.0 rules.


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## Wish (May 18, 2007)

It's a cool ability, but I don't know about overpowered.  The problem with divination (I've played a pair diviners to highish level) is that so many of the spells are so very specific, and their use so limited.  This is a great work-around for that problem.

If you really want to see an overpowered substitution level, check out the barbarian section.  Just say no to Lion Totem barbarians.  Just say no.


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## IanB (May 18, 2007)

Wish said:
			
		

> It's a cool ability, but I don't know about overpowered.  The problem with divination (I've played a pair diviners to highish level) is that so many of the spells are so very specific, and their use so limited.  This is a great work-around for that problem.
> 
> If you really want to see an overpowered substitution level, check out the barbarian section.  Just say no to Lion Totem barbarians.  Just say no.




What, you don't want barbarians with pounce running around willy-nilly in your game?


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## Wish (May 18, 2007)

I just want them to work for it a little.  If you want to multi-class barbarian/druid for that wild feat that let you burn wildshape uses for pounce, go for it.  Want to be a wildrunner and get pounce when you primal scream?  Sure.  Maybe not such a good idea for a one-level dip into a base class to give pounce under all circumstances.  And heck, if you're a fighter in heavy armor, you can't use fast movement anyway, so why not dip, get rage and pounce?  Good grief, what were they thinking.

I will say though, that I like the book overall, on first skim-through.  I love what they've done for paladins, with the substitution levels and Battle Blessing feat.  You now have options to either ditch your useless spells for something useable, or take a feat to make your spells useful.  Great stuff.


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## SadisticFishing (May 19, 2007)

IanB said:
			
		

> The one-of-the-spells-must-be-from-your-school rule was in 3.0; it appears to be gone in 3.5.




It is indeed in the 3.5 PHB. In chapter 10, somewhere


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## jasin (May 19, 2007)

EvilGM said:
			
		

> One of the wizard alternative class features is spontaneous divination. This feature replaces one of the wizard bonus feats and lets them sacrifice a prepared spell to cast any divination spell of equal or lower level.
> 
> The feature doesn't specify the spell has to be in your spellbook, or even arcane or divine. It just says any spell of the divination school.
> 
> ...



That Complete Champion seems like a worthy successor to Complete Divine.


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## jasin (May 19, 2007)

evilbob said:
			
		

> Why bother specializing?



Why indeed, even before this feat?


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## Liquidsabre (May 20, 2007)

Oh the feat is certainly off. Does the feat have a prereq at all? I can understand the feat requiring the caster to be a Diviner specialist in order to select and the spell would have to be known by the caster.



			
				jasin said:
			
		

> Why indeed, even before this feat?




Oh the question should always be why NOT specialize my friend. Increasing the number of spells you can cast at your highest level by either half or double is worth it alone - going from 1-2 fireballs per day to 2-3 is nothing to scoff at when you're 5th level. In fact, the base number of spells for a Wizard being capped at 4 is brought up to 5 by specialization which makes the Wizard comparable to the number of spell cast per day 0by a Sorcerer at a base of 6 spells/day. 

Since a Wizard must choose which few spells they have access to due to cost (as a wizard can't afford to put every spell into his spellbook afterall) any Wizard ends up focusing their spell choices on a select few based on style and utility. Losing two schools (if chosen carefully) usually has little effect on utility as there are so many utility spells across the schools and style is easy to select a chosen school for.


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## EyeontheMountain (May 20, 2007)

Liquidsabre said:
			
		

> Since a Wizard must choose which few spells they have access to due to cost (as a wizard can't afford to put every spell into his spellbook afterall) any Wizard ends up focusing their spell choices on a select few based on style and utility. Losing two schools (if chosen carefully) usually has little effect on utility as there are so many utility spells across the schools and style is easy to select a chosen school for.




Yes, a good point to bring up is the focused specialist class mod in Complete Arcane. With that, you give up a lot of flexibility, but you get comprable spells to a sorcerer. Although if you go diviner, you only give up two schools, and that does not hurt much at all.


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## RigaMortus2 (May 20, 2007)

What if you were another kind of specialist, say an Enchanter.  And you chose Divination as your prohibited school.  Could you use this feat to actually cast a Divination spell???


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## Marshall (May 20, 2007)

You cant have Div as a prohibited school...


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## jasin (May 20, 2007)

Liquidsabre said:
			
		

> Oh the question should always be why NOT specialize my friend. Increasing the number of spells you can cast at your highest level by either half or double is worth it alone - going from 1-2 fireballs per day to 2-3 is nothing to scoff at when you're 5th level. In fact, the base number of spells for a Wizard being capped at 4 is brought up to 5 by specialization which makes the Wizard comparable to the number of spell cast per day 0by a Sorcerer at a base of 6 spells/day.



It seems to me that any arcanist willing to sacrifice versatility for extra spell slots has a more attractive and obvious choice than a specialist wizard: namely, the sorcerer!

And specializing does sacrifice versatility, noticeably. There is no school that doesn't have at least a couple of excellent spells which any wizard should be sorry to miss.


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## RigaMortus2 (May 20, 2007)

Marshall said:
			
		

> You cant have Div as a prohibited school...




Well...  Ok then...


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## shilsen (May 21, 2007)

jasin said:
			
		

> It seems to me that any arcanist willing to sacrifice versatility for extra spell slots has a more attractive and obvious choice than a specialist wizard: namely, the sorcerer!
> 
> And specializing does sacrifice versatility, noticeably. There is no school that doesn't have at least a couple of excellent spells which any wizard should be sorry to miss.



 Specializng doesn't sacrifice that much versatility, IMO. Being able to cast that extra spell per level daily adds to versatility since you can prep a more varied set of spells, and offsets the lack of spells from one (if you're a Diviner) or two schools. Also, having the extra spell slot makes it much easier to do the single best thing a wizard can do to increase versatility that a sorcerer can't - leave a few spell slots open during spell preparation and fill them later during the day as needed.


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## ThirdWizard (May 21, 2007)

Meh, free Scribe Scroll means specialization is worthless IMO.


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## boolean (May 21, 2007)

ThirdWizard said:
			
		

> Meh, free Scribe Scroll means specialization is worthless IMO.



Depending on your definition of 'free'. Scribing still costs xp and gp, as well as time.


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## evilbob (May 22, 2007)

jasin said:
			
		

> Why indeed, even before this feat?



Two words:  Complete Mage.  Actually, here's a few more:  Player's Handbook II.  The former has tons of goodies for all types of mages, and makes specialist wizards much more viable.  And the Master Specialist PrC is just plain awesome.  The latter has some variant rules for specialist wizards that are really, really good, and much better than having a familiar you never remembered to name anyway.  

I still wonder if they will errata this to require a wizard to have the spell in their spellbook or not...


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