# Alter Self - suggested uses



## JoeBlank (Apr 28, 2003)

Playing a sorcerer for the first time, a gnome starting at 4th level. I want him to be versatile, and I have heard all the raves about Alter Self. I want to use this as my 2d level spell. Yes, I know there may be some better choices, but this one fits the character. Plus, he will be using up some of his 2d level castings to metamagic 1st level spells. Mainly I am interested in creative responses to question 1, so 2 and 3 are for extra credit. Thanks for your help.

1. Other than the obvious wings, gills, and disguises, what other uses do you suggest for Alter Self? 

2. And a side question, as long as he is growing gills why wouldn't he throw in some webbed hands and feet to get a little better swim speed? This does not seem to be beyond the scope of the spell, to me at least. Any opinions on this use?

3. Finally, not to ramble too much, but I did note that the poor flight usage from growing wings means that he can not hover. Therefore he has to move some each round (half his speed, so 15' minimum), and would not be able to use metamagic, or other spells with extended casting times. Of course, he could choose to fall, planning ahead by being very high up and being prepared to make a risky Reflex save to pull out of freefall. Am I interpreting this correctly?


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## smetzger (Apr 28, 2003)

JoeBlank said:
			
		

> *
> 3. Finally, not to ramble too much, but I did note that the poor flight usage from growing wings means that he can not hover. Therefore he has to move some each round (half his speed, so 15' minimum), and would not be able to use metamagic, or other spells with extended casting times. Of course, he could choose to fall, planning ahead by being very high up and being prepared to make a risky Reflex save to pull out of freefall. Am I interpreting this correctly? *




Sounds good.

Tail - for a Bonus to Balance checks.

My fav. is using it to look like Darth Maul, good way to intimidate those of evil bent into following you


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## Zhure (Apr 28, 2003)

My sorcerer with Alter Self used a single form all the time. It had wings, a tail, extra arms, gills, and horns (for attacks). Darn demon blood.

He never used it for disguise, lol.


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## Ferret (Apr 28, 2003)

Keys?


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## Murrdox (Apr 28, 2003)

Sex change


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## Antikinesis (Apr 28, 2003)

Zhure said:
			
		

> *My sorcerer with Alter Self used a single form all the time. It had wings, a tail, extra arms, gills, and horns (for attacks). Darn demon blood.
> 
> He never used it for disguise, lol. *



From the SRD:


> The character's attack rolls, natural armor bonus, and saves do not change. The spell does not confer special abilities, *attack forms*, defenses, ability scores, or mannerisms of the chosen form.



I think the "horns (for attacks)" aren't really supported by this spell.

Anyone wanna contribute their thoughts on using _Alter Self_ to grant Reach (10-ft)?

-AK


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## Zerovoid (Apr 29, 2003)

Antikinesis said:
			
		

> *
> From the SRD:
> I think the "horns (for attacks)" aren't really supported by this spell.
> 
> ...




I want to know if you can grow two extra arms and fight with four weapons?


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## Iku Rex (Apr 29, 2003)

Some old Sage answers on alter self: 

_Q: Alter Self: "Your body can undergo a limited physical transformation, [...]. If the form selected has wing you can fly at a speed of 30 ft with poor maneuverability. If the form has gill you can breathe underwater." Are the possible changes listed (extra limbs, wings, gills) the only alterations possible? _

*A: No, they are only examples. *

_Q: What else is possible? [I suggested Scent, Low-light vision, Darkvision or Blindsightis] _ 

*A: The entire sample list shown above is right out. You could, however, give yourself fins, fur, fangs, or claws, or a tail. 

Before you ask: 
fins: swim speed 30 
claw damage 1d4 
bite damage 1d4 
tail slam damage 1d3 (+2 climb and balance) *

_Q: Can you have more than one change in effect at the same time (like wings and gills)? _

*A: Yes. *

_Q: Do you have to take the form of a specific creature or are the changes made to "your own" body? _

*A: You can just change your own body. *

_Q: Can you make more than one alteration (wings *and*  gills *and* claws etc.) each time you cast the spell?_ 

*A: No, once change at a time. *


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## diaglo (Apr 29, 2003)

only problems with the changes much like the wings example. you don't gain complete prof. just b/c you have the change. so with wings you can fly. but you are the worst flyer possible. so you can't hover.

same with adding a tail. and other weapon like abilities. claws, fangs, horns, whatever....it doesn't give you prof with them. or multiattack with multiple arms.

remember too it won't replace more powerful spells:

water breathing is a 3rd lvl spell with 2hrs/lvl duration. fly is 3rd lvl with 10min/lvl duration. alter self is a 2nd lvl spell with 10min/lvl duration

so keep that in mind when you try and make your alterations.


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## JoeBlank (Apr 29, 2003)

Many thanks to all who have responded. I should have done this in the first place, so for easy reference:

Alter Self
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Personal
Target: The character
Duration: 10 minutes/level (D)
The character can alter the character's appearance and form-including clothing and equipment-to appear taller or shorter, thin, fat, or in between. The assumed form must be corporeal. The character's body can undergo a limited physical transmutation, including adding or subtracting one or two limbs, and the character's weight can be changed up to one-half. If the form selected has wings, the character can fly at a speed of 30 feet with poor maneuverability. If the form has gills, the character can breathe underwater.
The character's attack rolls, natural armor bonus, and saves do not change. The spell does not confer special abilities, attack forms, defenses, ability scores, or mannerisms of the chosen form. Once the new form is chosen, it remains for the duration of the spell. If the character is slain, the character automatically returns to the character's normal form.
If the character uses this spell to create a disguise, the character gets a +10 bonus on the character's Disguise check.

Iku Rex, thanks for the Sage advice. Was this from an FAQ or direct email correspondence between you and the Sage? Once again, his advice has helped and confused me at the same time. I liked his example for swim speed, and had assumed it would be similar to flight. Then he gives examples of attack forms, despite the spell description's prohibition against them. Not sure what to make of this, but doubt my little gnome will be wanting to claw and bite very often.

Glad to see he clarified that you can have more than one change in effect at a time (such as gills and wings, I would rather stick with a theme and take gills and fins, or wings and claws). I think he misunderstood your last question, or maybe I did at first. His response seems to contradict the "more than one change at a time" ruling, but I am understanding it to mean pick one form, with multiple effects if you like, and stick with it for the duration of the spell.

I can now see taking any form of movement, including burrow, climb, fly, or swim. Am I missing any? For my purposes, I'd like to come up with an extra change that fits the theme for each type of movement, such as swim and gills. Again, I would rather avoid taking claws or bite attacks, but this could be handy in rare situations. Any suggestions for extra effects to go with fly, climb and burrow?

smetzger, I like your suggestion of intimidating forms, could be handy.

diaglo, I agree with you that the modes of movement are inferior, but I think it will be versatile to have them all available, even in limited forms. Not too worried about extra limbs or claws and such, as a gnome sorcerer ought to stay out of melee anyway. I also agree that, for balance, the Alteration spell should not be usable to take the place of other spells. Instead, it can be a less powerful, shorter duration version of other spells, such as wings v. the Fly spell.

[aside to diaglo: you probably realize that I am talking about my character for Olgar's game, which I am joining starting this Sunday, right?]


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## Iku Rex (Apr 29, 2003)

JoeBlank said:
			
		

> *Iku Rex, thanks for the Sage advice. Was this from an FAQ or direct email correspondence between you and the Sage? *



The later. 



			
				JoeBlank said:
			
		

> *Once again, his advice has helped and confused me at the same time. I liked his example for swim speed, and had assumed it would be similar to flight. Then he gives examples of attack forms, despite the spell description's prohibition against them. Not sure what to make of this, but doubt my little gnome will be wanting to claw and bite very often.*



The spell doesn't confer "attack forms". "Attack form" isn't a defined DnD term, but I assume it refers to a creature's attack routines. (Like claw/claw/bite.)  "Claw damage 1d4" on the other hand, is a _natural weapon_.  It's not much of a weapon (even a dagger is better), but it might get you a bonus to climb or something.   



			
				JoeBlank said:
			
		

> *Glad to see he clarified that you can have more than one change in effect at a time (such as gills and wings, I would rather stick with a theme and take gills and fins, or wings and claws). I think he misunderstood your last question, or maybe I did at first. His response seems to contradict the "more than one change at a time" ruling, but I am understanding it to mean pick one form, with multiple effects if you like, and stick with it for the duration of the spell.*



Nope. The reason I asked is that since the various changes available through alter self aren't dependant on taking a specific form, you could theoretically just go for the full package and take every possible "enhancement" in one go. He (wisely) ruled against that. So, if you want both gills and fins you have to cast alter self twice. (You can _look_ as if you have both with one casting, but they - or one of  them at least - won't actually work.)


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## diaglo (Apr 29, 2003)

Iku Rex said:
			
		

> *The spell doesn't confer "attack forms". "Attack form" isn't a defined DnD term, but I assume it refers to a creature's attack routines. (Like claw/claw/bite.)  "Claw damage 1d4" on the other hand, is a natural weapon.  It's not much of a weapon (even a dagger is better), but it might get you a bonus to climb or something.*




the attack form in this case would be allowing you to get AoO with your claws. whereas normally unarmed you can't without the feat.


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## JoeBlank (Apr 29, 2003)

Now I'm getting even more confused. Fun!

"Attack forms" could also mean special attacks, such as poison, rage, stampede, and others. I think a reasonable conclusion here is that Alter Self can be used to gain a simple attack in the 1d3 to 1d4 range, such as claws, bite, etc.

But on the more than one change at time I am still in need of further clarification, and will perhaps just have to ask my DM to rule. I interpret the following from the Sage:

"Q: Can you have more than one change in effect at the same time (like wings and gills)? 

A: Yes."

to mean that with one casting of the spell you can have more than one change in effect. If not, he should have clarified by responding "Yes, but you would have to cast Alter Self multiple times to effect multiple changes."

So how does this jive with the related question and response:

"Q: Can you make more than one alteration (wings and gills and claws etc.) each time you cast the spell? 

A: No, once change at a time."?

This could mean one change per casting of the spell, i.e. only one "effect" per casting, or it could mean you can only change to one form per casting of the spell, but that form can have more than one effect, as per the earlier response.

And what about effects that are singular in nature, such as only claws, but could certainly grant more than one game-effect, in this case a claw attack as well as a bonus to climb?

Thanks for the debate, it is very helpful on a spell I have not yet used. Keep up the good work. When all is said and done, I will probably direct my DM's attention to this thread and see how he rules.


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## Iku Rex (Apr 29, 2003)

JoeBlank said:
			
		

> *Now I'm getting even more confused. <snip>.*



I asked if you could have more than one change in effect at one time. He said "yes". I asked if you could make more than one change per casting of the spell. He said "no". It seems crystal clear to me. There is no contradiction.


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## JoeBlank (May 1, 2003)

Iku Rex said:
			
		

> *
> I asked if you could have more than one change in effect at one time. He said "yes". I asked if you could make more than one change per casting of the spell. He said "no". It seems crystal clear to me. There is no contradiction. *




It does not seem "crystal" clear to me, although your interpretation seems to be the most probable. One could also interpret "more than one change per casting" to mean growing wings, and then a few rounds later switching to gills, and then a few rounds later to claws, rinse, repeat. 

Even if more than one change is not allowed in the sense that one can not keep changing throughout the duration of the spell, it still seems possible that one could have a single change that results in multiple effects for rules purposes. The example of a fish-man (or fish-gnome) having gills and webbed hands incorporates changes to two different body parts. However, a single change that adds claws could reasonably be used for attacks and for climbing. If balance is the issue, the gills and webbed hands do not seem significantly more powerful than the claws.

Note that I am not supporting either interpretation, I just want to get it right. But as I said before, for this specific character the DM's interpretation will be the right way, for his campaign.

For the record, I am still trying to think of other uses of the spell, to get the most out of it's versatility. So far, we have:

* Modes of movement, such as fly, swim, climb, burrow.
* Attacks, such as claw or bite.
* The ability to breath underwater with gills.
* Disguises (the +10 to disguise from the spell description).
* Possible circumstance bonuses to interaction-skills, such as intimidate, diplomacy, and gather info (by taking a form more likely to be accepted/feared by others).

One other thought to add, in case anyone is interested, I think I can solve the inability to hover problem by adding Featherfall when the character levels. If he really has to cast a metamagiced spell he just has to be sure he is up high enough that he will not hit the ground in one round, cast away, fall for a round, and then cast Featherfall. Or even plan ahead and cast Featherfall before failing to maintain flight speed.


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## LokiDR (May 1, 2003)

If you look at the description of doppleganger, they change form by way of alter self.  This means that anything you have ever imagined a doppleganer doing with it's shape changing you can do with alter self, at least for while.

One of my favorites is to change into a dog.  Most people won't even bother to notice a stray to make the spot check against the disguise.  Just look out for dog catchers


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## JoeBlank (May 1, 2003)

The doppelganger connection was new on me, thanks LokiDR. However, I think you might be taking it too far. The relevant portion of the description from the SRD reads:

"Alter Self (Su): A doppelganger can assume the shape of any Small or Medium-size humanoid. This works like alter self as cast by an 18th-level sorcerer, but the doppelganger can remain in the chosen form indefinitely. It can assume a new form or return to its own as a standard action."

So even a doppelganger is limited to humanoid forms. The only exceptions, over and above just using the spell, that I see for doppelgangers is the option of small or medium-sized humanoid, and the ability to remain in the form indefinitely. I don't think my gnome could increase or decrease beyond his small-size status, but any humanoid form does open up some possibilities.


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## LokiDR (May 1, 2003)

Oops, I missed that "humanoid" in the alter form description under doppleganer.  Oh well, that character is gone.

But I am fairly sure you can change into a dog with alter self though.


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## Wippit Guud (May 1, 2003)

Well then... based on the Doppleganger, you can probably shift your size category up or down one level (and since enlarge/reduse is level 1, and can go beyond one size level at higher levels, it's not overpowered).

As for new uses:

Environmental protection: fur for cold, blubber for cold water

Add two legs (everyone says arms): bonusus vs tripping, balance bonus, faster movement rate perhaps?

Since you can subtract limbs, removed arms and/or legs to bypass bindings/shackles

This might be a bit beyond... changing bone to something bendable... bonus to escape artist checks, squeezing through narrow openings.

Stopping _wounding_ effects? Maybe not permanently, but for long enough to get some healing magic on it.

Modify lungs/vocal chords for increased volume (bardic music would have a larger radius suddenly)

Eyes in the back of your head, literally

Adding appendages... well, that belongs in the Book of Carnal Knowledge I think...

Create a marsupial pouch, good for smuggling small items.

That's all I can think of off the top of my head...


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## Wippit Guud (May 1, 2003)

Wait, got a few more:

Octopus-like suction cups - bonus to prevent disarm, bonus to grapple

Change color to blend in - bonus to hide

Catlike padded feet - bonus to move silently

Nictitating membranes on the eyes - see better underwater

Large, flat feet - walk on snow or sand easier


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## Lord Pendragon (May 1, 2003)

JoeBlank said:
			
		

> *
> 
> It does not seem "crystal" clear to me, although your interpretation seems to be the most probable. One could also interpret "more than one change per casting" to mean growing wings, and then a few rounds later switching to gills, and then a few rounds later to claws, rinse, repeat. *



It's crystal clear to me too.  One change per casting, no changing.  If you want something better, pick up _Polymorph Self_.







> _Originally posted by LokiDR_
> *
> 
> If you look at the description of doppleganger, they change form by way of alter self. This means that anything you have ever imagined a doppleganer doing with it's shape changing you can do with alter self, at least for while.
> ...




LokiDR, where in the world did you get this from?  As far as I know, you can't change into a dog with _Alter Self_.  You need _Polymorph Self_ for that one...which is 4th-level instead of 2nd.


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## Tar-Edhel (May 1, 2003)

Lord Pendragon said:
			
		

> *It's crystal clear to me too.  One change per casting, no changing.  If you want something better, pick up Polymorph Self.*




Not so sure. The sage also said



> *Q: Do you have to take the form of a specific creature or are the changes made to "your own" body?
> 
> A: You can just change your own body. *




What does he mean here? 

That your only option is to change your own body? or that you can take the form of a specific creature or change your own body?

The point being that if you can assume a specific creature, it's easy to take one that has wings, claw and tail for example. How do you then rule the 'extra' changes? Only one would be operational?



> _Originally posted by Lord Pendragon _*LokiDR, where in the world did you get this from?  As far as I know, you can't change into a dog with Alter Self.  You need Polymorph Self for that one...which is 4th-level instead of 2nd. *




On that I agree... Maybe a 1st-2nd edition leftover but I thought Alter self was limited to humanoid forms, although the spell does not specify this. 

And I thought I understood this spell.   Now I'm confused too.


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## MarauderX (May 1, 2003)

All in all I think the Alter self is pretty powerful for evil geniouses who want to spy on the party themselves vs. sending an incompetant henchman to do it for you.  So having a sorcerer in a city to follow the party and it can change form from halfling to human if the party makes a spot check to notice it in the first place.  Being hunted in such a way made my PCs pretty paranoid about anyone they meet and they started to realize they shouldn't take all combat spells all the time just so they can _find_ the enemy in the first place.  

As far as new uses, I would use it for camoflage to help out Hide checks.

(just realized my grammar looks like @$$... I hope everyone can understand what I was trying to say here before I fell asleep.)


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## LokiDR (May 2, 2003)

Lord Pendragon said:
			
		

> *LokiDR, where in the world did you get this from?  As far as I know, you can't change into a dog with Alter Self.  You need Polymorph Self for that one...which is 4th-level instead of 2nd. *




You can give yourself fur.  You can elongate your nose into a snout.  You can change your arms into legs.  You can decrease your size.  Yep, spells dog to me.

You would not change your physical stats, heal, or gain any other benifits of polymorph.  No natural attacks, natural armor, or anything else.  This is a disguise.  Just a disguise as a very different race.


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## Lord Pendragon (May 2, 2003)

LokiDR said:
			
		

> *
> 
> You can give yourself fur.  You can elongate your nose into a snout.  You can change your arms into legs.  You can decrease your size.  Yep, spells dog to me.
> 
> You would not change your physical stats, heal, or gain any other benifits of polymorph.  No natural attacks, natural armor, or anything else.  This is a disguise.  Just a disguise as a very different race. *



So in other words you're pulling this out of the air.  That's fine, but unless you've got something to back it up, I'm going to take it with a grain of salt.  _Polymorph Self_ specifically mentions that it gives a bonus to disguise checks if used for that purpose.  Why in the world would any sane caster use it for that, if they could turn into a dog with a spell two levels lower?

_Alter Self_ is an incredibly good spell because of its versatility.  A mage can have it prepared and, at need: fly, breathe water, climb better, balance better, or any number of things.  Not all at once, but any at need.  Even once the mage has access to _Fly_, and _Polymorph Self_, he may want to keep a slot or scroll of _Alter Self_ around, simply because of the versatility.

But it's not any more than it seems.  It can't mimic spells such as _Blindsight_, _Righteous Might_, or _Polymorph Self_.







> _Originally posted by Tar-Edhel:_
> *
> What does he mean here?
> 
> ...



It means that you don't have to specify "merman" when you want gills, or "avariel" if you want wings.  It means you don't have to specify "Bob, who lives next door to Nancy" if you want be a brown-haired human.  You simply alter your body, giving it the one modification you desire.


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## LokiDR (May 2, 2003)

Lord Pendragon said:
			
		

> *So in other words you're pulling this out of the air.  That's fine, but unless you've got something to back it up, I'm going to take it with a grain of salt.  Polymorph Self specifically mentions that it gives a bonus to disguise checks if used for that purpose.  Why in the world would any sane caster use it for that, if they could turn into a dog with a spell two levels lower?
> *




Hmm, +10 disguise.  Yep, looks like alter self.  Oh, were you refering to Polymorph Self?  Yes, that spell does that as well.  A DM afraid of abuse of this spell may call for multiple castings, but there is NO reason it doesn't work.  

Why would a person use polymorph for a disguise instead of polymorph?  They shouldn't.  Alter Self is much better suited to it, and change self is better still.  Change self can mimic clothes, alter self doesn't - you would be a dog in clothing.  Polymorph takes care of the equipment, but you may loose physical stats.  Alter self doesn't heal you.  Alter self doesn't grant natural armor.  Alter self can't be used for multiple natural weapons at once.  Makes perfect sense to me.


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## Lord Pendragon (May 2, 2003)

Fair enough.

For me, there seems to be a sequential progression going on:

_Change Self_ --> _Alter Self_ --> _Polymorph Self_

Only Features --> Wings or Gills --> Full Body Transformation

But as always, YMMV.


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## JoeBlank (May 2, 2003)

LokiDR said:
			
		

> *Change self can mimic clothes, alter self doesn't - you would be a dog in clothing.   *




I'm not sure what you are saying here, unless you are getting the spells mixed up. From the Alter Self description, several posts above, "The character can alter the character's appearance and form-*including clothing and equipment*-to appear taller or shorter, thin, fat, or in between" (emphasis added). 

Your reasoning that Alter Self could allow a change into a dog is a stretch, maybe with multiple castings, as you have said.  Still, the description says "to appear tall, shorter, thin, fat, or in between." I don't find "dog-shaped" to be in between any of those. 

Still, I am finally learning what a versatile spell this can be. And if I have not said so before, I am not looking to power-game, but I do want to get the most use possible out of the spell. It fits the character, and this is my first time playing a sorcerer. Starting at 4th level, he gets only one 2d level spell known, so I want to be able to use it as often as possible.


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## JoeBlank (May 2, 2003)

Wippit Guud said:
			
		

> *As for new uses: [SNIP]
> *




Fan-freaking-tastic! Now that is some creative stuff, and exactly what I was looking for. Not that I don't appreciate the debate on the limits of the spell, as that has helped me to understand it better.

Wippit Guud, my thanks to you. These contributions have been printed and will be taken with me for my game Sunday. Actually, I'll probably print and take the whole thread, but these will be highlighted. Nice work.


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## Wippit Guud (May 2, 2003)

I have my moments


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## LokiDR (May 2, 2003)

JoeBlank said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I'm not sure what you are saying here, unless you are getting the spells mixed up. From the Alter Self description, several posts above, "The character can alter the character's appearance and form-including clothing and equipment-to appear taller or shorter, thin, fat, or in between" (emphasis added).
> 
> ...




You know, I completely missed that line.  Thanks, this spell is even better than I thought.  And I do see disguise as a dog to be perfectly reasonable.  It is use of the spell for disguise, same as polymorph.  Polymorph gives you so much more though that it really does deserve it's higher level spot.

Just as an example, let's compare Alter Self to my four favorite uses of polymorph: healing, disguise attack form, and defensive form.
*Healing: no contest, Alter Self doesn't, Poly does.
*Disguise: seems pretty similar to me.  If I want to sneak into a drow city, Alter Self would only have the problem of duration (a significant problem, mind you).
*Attack form: lets take a common one - fire giant.
31 str, don't even try it with Alter Self
+8 natural armor, not a chance with Alter Self
21 con, not Alter
Reach, this is argueable, but I would probably say no.
Size penalty, Alter only goes up to 50% larger than you currently are, and I would probably say that doesn't change size class.  Alter self is actually better than Poly.
*Defensive form:  again, a favorite of mine is the Booggie from MMII (a small fey)
21 dex, not Alter
+n natural armor, not Alter
size class small, I might let that go, since 50% of your current size is more or less the definition of the next size down.

In almost all cases, I would rather have Poly.  This is how I know that Poly is higher level spell.


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## rkanodia (May 2, 2003)

Hmm.  How about having four arms?  Of course, you'll have to convince the DM to let you take Multidexterity and Multi-weapon fighting...


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## LokiDR (May 2, 2003)

Would you allow reach?
Size change up with reach?
Size change down?
Change the size of your weapon for more damage?

Thrikeen sorcerer could be a combat monster.  There is a third level spell out of Savage Species called Giralialian's Blessing that gives you more arms.  You should be sure you aren't making the 2nd level Alter Self better than third level Giralialian's Blessing.  The Savage Species spell is same duration, gives more arms based on level, and is range:touch.


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