# [FR] In what order should I read the books?



## msd (Jun 8, 2004)

Hi all,

Just a quick question about the Forgotten Realms novels.  Is there a recommended order in which to read the books?  Maybe its me, but I can't seem to find what looks to be an official timeline...or is there no such thing?

Thanks in advance,
Matt


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## BobROE (Jun 8, 2004)

I can give a better list tomorrow (I'm about to go to bed) if no one else has.  But it really doesn't matter what order you read them in, unless they have the same characters.

For instance the 3 cormyr novels should be read in this order
Cormyr: A Novel
(Something of the) High Road [sorry can't remember the exact title].
Death of a Dragon.

Now it doesn't really matter if you read R.A. Salvatore's books before this (since they occur before this in the timeline), since they have no interconnections.


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## Taelorn76 (Jun 8, 2004)

Many books are independant from each other. I would say most stories are in the form of trilogies.  I started with the Avatar Trilogy and I think that's a good place to start. Many stories don't reference what has happened in other books unless it was something monumental that occured.

*The Avatar trilogy: *
Shadowdale, Tantras, Waterdeep.

The only exception to this are the Drizzt books those should be read in order.
*The Darkelf Trilogy: *
Homeland, Exile, Sojourn
*Icewind Dale Trilogy: * (published before Darkelf but events take place after that trilogy)
The Crystal Shard, Streams of Silver, The Halfling's Gem
*Legacy of the Drow: *
The legagy, Starless Night, Siege of Darkness, Passage to Dawn
*Paths of Dakness: *
The Silent Blade, The Spine of the World, Servant of the Shard, Sea of Swords
*Hunter's Blade Trilogy: *
The Thousand Orcs, The Lone Drow, The Two Swords


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## Alzrius (Jun 8, 2004)

msd said:
			
		

> Hi all,
> 
> Just a quick question about the Forgotten Realms novels.  Is there a recommended order in which to read the books?  Maybe its me, but I can't seem to find what looks to be an official timeline...or is there no such thing?
> 
> ...




Hi Matt. A significant portion of the FR books don't rely on each other, so in most cases you shouldn't have too hard of a time worrying about what occurs in what order, simply because it won't matter. Usually, such books are referenced as being part one, two, etc of a trilogy or series.

That said, there are some resources you can use to help. WotC's Forgotten Realms novel guide may be of limited assistance.

Although it's slightly dated, there is a timeline specifically for the books of the Sembia series.

What you're looking for though is this Forgotten Realms novel timeline which lists all the books through the first quarter of 2003 (roughly) in order of when they begin (books that aren't here are probably in list three below).

If you're looking for a specific series, and want to see how that series breaks down chronologically, the following lists can help:

List One mostly deals with books that are part of a series.

List Two deals with books that were released under a banner that didn't necessarily deal with each other, as well as other miscellanious books.

List Three deals with books where the chronological setting is unable to be determined.

As a final note, remember that these lists are somewhat dated, so newer works (such as the Rogues series, etc.) won't be on here.

Hope that helps!


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## Cthulhudrew (Jun 8, 2004)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> The only exception to this are the Drizzt books those should be read in order.
> *The Darkelf Trilogy: *
> Homeland, Exile, Sojourn
> *Icewind Dale Trilogy: * (published before Darkelf but events take place after that trilogy)
> The Crystal Shard, Streams of Silver, The Halfling's Gem




This is just my suggestion, but I'd actually read the Icewind Dale trilogy before any of the other Dark Elf books (and not just because, well, I did). To me, these were the definitive "Drizzt" books- it is where he was introduced the first, and the most clearly, IMO. It also builds the other characters very nicely- far more than any other of the novels in the series the Icewind Dale trilogy (especially The Crystal Shard) is an ensemble piece, and not just a "Drizzt kicks @$$" book. Also, Salvatore was at his best in these novels, I think- having read a lot of his work, and more than once. There is a freshness to it, and a real sense of "grounding" the work, whereas a lot of the later novels just become a series of repetitive and sometimes confusing (hard to visualize) fight scenes.

As well, I think in large part because Salvatore was working with "new" territory in the Realms (and wasn't that familiar with them himself) I think the Icewind Dale trilogy is a lot more "generally accessible" to people starting out reading Realms books. Not terribly heavy in the "needing to know" about everything sense, whereas the longer the trilogy goes (and this includes, to my recollection, much of the Dark Elf Trilogy, which is Menzoberranzan centric) the more continuity heavy and specific the books get.

(Just thought of another reason the ID trilogy might better be read first- The DE trilogy assumes some working knowledge of who and what Drizzt is, and what he stands for, as evidenced by the Chapter Narratives that pop up now and then by Drizzt. Without some grounding in the character, I'd think those could be a bit confusing.)

Anyway, just my suggestion. Not trying to turn this into a bashing/praising thread.


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## Alzrius (Jun 8, 2004)

I disagree. Just because Salvatore wrote the Icewind Dale stuff first, and then went back and did the prequels, doesn't mean that they should be read in that same order.

I read the Dark Elf books first, and then the Icewind Dale stuff, and had no idea they hadn't been written in order (save that in some of Drizzt's personal notations he refers to characters he hadn't met yet, but those notations are outside the story anyway). To me, reading them in chronological order offered more in the way of building - if I had just started out with a good-aligned drow, living on the surface, with an eclectic group of friends, I'd have felt somewhat daunted.


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## Dark Jezter (Jun 8, 2004)

I'm with Cthulhudrew:  I would read _The Icewind Dale Trilogy_ before _The Dark Elf Trilogy_, mainly because Drizzt seems more interesting and mysterious in _The Icewind Dale Trilogy_ if you don't already know everything about his past.  Also, as Cthulhudrew pointed out, _the Dark Elf Trilogy_ seems to assume that the reader already knows who Drizzt is and is familiar with his outlook and personality.

So, you should start with _The Icewind Dale Trilogy_, then read _The Dark Elf Trilogy_, then _The Cleric Quintet_ (these books are about a different cast of characters than Drizzt and company, but they are still connected to Salvatore's other FR novels), then _Legacy of the Drow_, then _Paths of Darkness_, and finally _The Hunter's Blades Trilogy._

It's a lot of reading, and there are a few books in the series that could have been better (such as _Sea of Swords_ and _Passage to Dawn_), but on a whole I found the series to be enjoyable and fun to read, with characters you really grow attached to.


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## Sarigar (Jun 8, 2004)

If you want a chronological order then check out Wizards website here:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=books/fr/fictionlist


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## The Serge (Jun 9, 2004)

I'd recommend reading them in the order they were written.  This is usually my recommendation for reading any author since more discerning readers will sense a change in quality and writing maturation from multiple books.  This is even more pronounced when reading books featuring the same characters/worlds.  So, in the case of Drizzt, I'd read the terribly written Icewind Dale Trilogy, the slightly better Dark Elf Trilogy (recenlty repackaged with a snazzy Lockwood cover) and then the stuff that comes afterwards.  Although I detest Salvatore, his strength as a writer clearly increases over the course of these books and its best to read them and watch him grow as a writer.


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## msd (Jun 9, 2004)

*An interesting issue*



			
				The Serge said:
			
		

> I'd read the terribly written Icewind Dale Trilogy...Although I detest Salvatore




This really was the source of the question.  I love the campaign sourcebook and really enjoy the other books about the setting but never had read the novels...

I picked up the Crystal Shard and am just having one HECK of a time trying to get through the first 50 pages.  The writing is just so...

I guess, what I am wondering is, do people read a lot of the non-Salvatore Forgotten Realms stuff, is the Crystal Shard reall (as you seem to indicate) not representative of his stuff, and if not...

Does anyon want to recommend a really good fantasy book while I'm still on vacation and before my summer job starts?   

Thanks in advance and thanks for all the help you guys have already given.

Matt


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## The Serge (Jun 9, 2004)

Icewind Dale's, I believe, his first big time, professional undertaking.  His talent improves dramatically in subsequent books.  However, I don't like him and never will (and I've read 10 of his books in order to find out what I should avoid as a writer... And because I wanted to understand as much as possible about Drizzt and his dubious popularity).

That said, I've found most of the novels out of TSR/WotC to be substandard.  Weis and Hickman of Dragonlance fame are the only authors of the talent I'm drawn to and their writing certainly improved over time.

As for what you could read now...?  I recommend Caitlin Kiernan's _Threshold_ and _Low Red Moon_.  Modern fantastic "horror."  Evocative, moody stuff.  Excellent.  She's a brilliant writer who captures a reader with frightening ease.  Highly recommended!


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## Angcuru (Jun 9, 2004)

I bought the Dark Elf Trilogy a while back but never got around to reading it.  Now, in this thread I get the impression that Sal's writing is either readable, or simply terrible.  Can anyone explain either view?


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## Dark Jezter (Jun 9, 2004)

Angcuru said:
			
		

> I bought the Dark Elf Trilogy a while back but never got around to reading it.  Now, in this thread I get the impression that Sal's writing is either readable, or simply terrible.  Can anyone explain either view?



 I've found most people who think Salvatore's books are terrible and totally without merit can be lumped into a few categories:

*The Pidgeonholers:* These people have been underwhelmed by the FR novel scene on a whole (which is understandable, since there are a lot of awful FR novels out there).  Since Salvatore is the most popular FR author, he's guilty by association.

*The Literary Snobs:*  These guys hate Salvatore's books because they aren't "high literature."  They don't carry any deep messages, they don't try to change the reader's outlook on life, and they weren't written by an Oxford intellectual.  Salvatore's books don't pretend to be anything but entertaining tales of high adventure, much like Robert E. Howard's Conan stories, and because of that they believe that his popularity is undeserved.

*The English Professors:*  "No no!  The narrative here is all wrong, and I didn't like the flow of the last chapter at all.  Why does this guy sell so many books?  Don't people understand that it's more important for a book to be technically flawless than entertaining?"

*The Tolkienophiles:*  These guys believe that Tolkien is God.  All other fantasy novels are nothing compared to his marvelous works.  Salvatore, Martin, Howard, Lieber, Moorecock, Jordan, Brooks, and everyone else are all hacks in their eyes.

*The Anti-Drizzts:*  These people are sick and tired of players creating dual-scimitar wielding, good-aligned drow rangers in their D&D campaigns, and they're lashing out at Salvatore in retaliation.

Not everybody is like that, though.  Some people have given Salvatore a fair shake, and simply found his novels not to their liking.  Nothing wrong with that.


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## The Serge (Jun 9, 2004)

At the expense of sounding like I'm defending my position (which I'm not... Just trying to get a conversation going), my distaste for Salvatore is multitiered...  Just like my distaste for Goodkind.

Salvatore's writing is plodding, dull, and cheap.  His characters are generally cutout carbon copies of "traditional" archetypes.  Drizzt is generally the reluctant, yet fearsome hero, mysterious in his nature and distrusted by a world that hates his kind in spite of the good he does.  Bruegor the dwarf is...  Well, he's another grumpy dwarf who fiercely loves his friends, hates his enemies, is a father figure, and tends to be the comic relief.  Wulfgar is the huge barbarian.  Catibrie is the fiesty damsel who's more deadly than most give her credit for, but is still the girl in the middle of a love triangle.  I mean, we've seen these thousands of times before.  While I've no problem with archetypes in any genre, we've seen these particular ones done countless times to much better and less obvious effect.  Salvatore offers them up as a simple foundation to promote simple story telling.

His characters are shallow.  His stories and an inch deep in a child's plastic pool.  There are no twists, surprises, or intrigue.  There's nothing to challenge the reader in any way.  The only place in which he excels is in describing his fighting scenes.  Initially, this is pretty cool.  It evokes a cinematic sense.  However, it gets tired and a worthless consumption of space.  By the third book, we know just how great these combatants are; there's no reason to belabor the point.  While he's wasting sentence after sentence describing how Drizzt swings his swords, we could be learning a bit more aobut Drizzt or any of the other characters... Or the world around them and the history that influenced the present.

Plot?  Well, the plots have gotten better over time.  This much is true.  But they're still dull and predictable.  This is generally acceptable when the characters are intriguing, or there's some humor, or something.  But, we don't have that here.  Not at all.

I'm not asking for a literary masterpiece.  I'm not asking for a great deal of internal consistency.  I am asking for something at least partially unique or well done.  We've neither in Salvatore's case.  Heck, I think that most people who like him (and I know a few) can recognize that he's really not as talented (at least with the WotC stuff) as many make him out to be.


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## Mystery Man (Jun 9, 2004)

> Not everybody is like that, though. Some people have given Salvatore a fair shake, and simply found his novels not to their liking. Nothing wrong with that.



That would be me.  It's too much dizzying, hopping around from character to character for me.




			
				The Serge said:
			
		

> Salvatore's writing is plodding, dull, and cheap. His characters are generally cutout carbon copies of "traditional" archetypes.
> 
> His characters are shallow. His stories and an inch deep in a child's plastic pool.
> 
> ...



Not that I agree or disagree but I think comments like these are what got the WoTC novel section shut down.


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## Mystery Man (Jun 9, 2004)

msd said:
			
		

> Hi all,
> 
> Just a quick question about the Forgotten Realms novels. Is there a recommended order in which to read the books? Maybe its me, but I can't seem to find what looks to be an official timeline...or is there no such thing?
> 
> ...



You can get the book list in different orders here (Forgotten Realms: The Library) if you want. 

I recommend reading Ed's Elminster, Making of a Mage first all the way up to Elminster in Hell. I found E. in Hell unreadable (personal pref) so you may want to check that out at the library first. 

Elaine Cunningham is exceptional. Her Daughter of the Drow series rocks.


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## The Serge (Jun 9, 2004)

Mystery Man said:
			
		

> Not that I agree or disagree but I think comments like these are what got the WoTC novel section shut down.



What's your point?  Not trying to be snippish or anything, just curious as to what this means given the direction the conversation has taken.  

Frankly, I think WotC made something of a mistake in shutting down the section.  Aside from disuaging discourse on their material (which happens all of the time for the game), it makes them appear to be resistant to criticism of their novel line...  Which seems petty.  Of course, I never posted there, but I don't see the reason to shut that down when negative comments about for their accessories and core rules.


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## Mystery Man (Jun 9, 2004)

The Serge said:
			
		

> What's your point? Not trying to be snippish or anything, just curious as to what this means given the direction the conversation has taken.
> 
> Frankly, I think WotC made something of a mistake in shutting down the section. Aside from disuaging discourse on their material (which happens all of the time for the game), it makes them appear to be resistant to criticism of their novel line... Which seems petty. Of course, I never posted there, but I don't see the reason to shut that down when negative comments about for their accessories and core rules.



I didn't mean to single you out so if it seems like an attack it isn't.  

Not that I'm an oafish fawning fan of Salvatore's by any means, I've had my problems with some of his books. And I'm sure he could care less.  But....
There's a difference between an honest critique and constructive critisism and just being downright mean spirited. And even your comments are tame compared to some of the real scorchers I've read before they shut it down. I don't blame them, but then again I don't much care one way or the other. There are lots of places to go and discuss the FR novels, Candlekeep, Salvatore's own website that are better than WoTC anyway.


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## Faraer (Jun 9, 2004)

Best starting points are Ed Greenwood's _Spellfire_ (written to introduce the Realms to new readers, and unparalleled in that purpose), Elaine Cunningham's _Elfshadow_, and the multi-author _The Halls of Stormweather_. Ed's written in the Realms for 20 years longer than anyone else, and there's no substitute for the authentic Realmsian life his novels breathe.

_Elminster in Hell_ is much the most ambitious Realms novel written, with only _Cormyr_ and _Evermeet_ of comparable ambition. It may be my favourite, but its resonance is greater if it's not the first Realms book you read. The latest, _Elminster's Daughter_, is actually a good Realms-introduction that stands up just fine as a stand-alone sword and sorcery novel.

Bob Salvatore's books, and I don't think he'd necessarily disagree, are only peripherally about the Realms. They're set in their own enclave which doesn't have much to do thematically or in terms of continuity (though this is less true lately) with the greater Realms.

(I second the Caitlín Kiernan recommendation, on an unrelated note.)


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## Sir Whiskers (Jun 10, 2004)

Mystery Man said:
			
		

> Elaine Cunningham is exceptional. Her Daughter of the Drow series rocks.




Seconded. She also wrote _Evermeet_, which (IMO) is quite good. Also, pick up the anthology _Realms of the Underdark_ - her short story, Rite of Blood is excellent.


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## Dark Jezter (Jun 10, 2004)

I don't know.  As much as I enjoy Salvatore's FR novels, I was never able to get into Elaine Cunningham's books.  She seems to be a serious elf fangirl, and in her stories it seems as though elves (and by extension, drow) are the best at everything they do:  Elves are the deadliest warriors, the most powerful wizards, the wisest clerics, etc.  If you're a person who dosen't care a whole lot for elves, this can get old fairly quickly.

In fact, I know a guy who commenly refers to Cunningham's novels as "elf operas."


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## BobROE (Jun 10, 2004)

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> In fact, I know a guy who commenly refers to Cunningham's novels as "elf operas."




Does that include the 3 that aren't about elves?


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