# Polymorph & Pregnancy



## Centaur (May 6, 2003)

At the risk of censorship or having this thread removed, I have a question of opinion to ask of everyone.  As the heading would indicate, it has to do with the use of Polymorph spells and Sex.

Please people, lets keep it clean, Here is the question.

For the Purpose of argument, we'll keep the discussion to the use of *Polymorph Other*.

*First*, can a person under the effects of a polymorph spell become pregnant?

For example:
1) A Female Elf is Polymorphed into a female Gnome.
2) A male human is Polymorphed into a female human.

In either of these cases, could the person become pregnant?

*Second*, Could a person induce pregnancy while under the effects of a polymorph spell?

For example:
3) A Male Elf polymorphed into a Male Gnome.
4) A Female Human Polymorphed into a Male Human.

In either of these cases, could the person induce pregnancy?

If pregnancy is possible under 1 or 2 above, what would happen to the fetus when the spell is reversed?  What happens to the child when the pregnancy comes to term?

*Third*, what happens to an existing fetus when Polymorph is cast onto someone who is already pregnant?  Is the person protected from the effects by some mystical force to protect the child or is the fetus subject to the same transformation as the mother (i.e.. transformed to a fetal version of what mom is transformed into)?  Or is it not? What happens to the child if the pregnancy goes to term while under the influence of the pregnancy?

*Fourth*, what if the form the person is polymorphed into is of a different Type than that of the persons natural form.  For example, a humanoid is transformed into a giant or a dragon.

We already know from the rules that Dragons and some Outsiders can assume compatible forms to breed with humans etc., what about the other way around or is this a factor of their supernatural existence or power?

How would you run this in your own campaign?  Are there rules concerning it anywhere?  Has it ever been discussed before?


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## Umbran (May 6, 2003)

In considering Polymorph Other, the spell says, "The polymorphed creature acquires the physical and natural abilities of the creature it has been polyumorphed into while retaining it's own mind."

So, that pretty much handles 1,2, and most of 4.  In general, siring or bearing children is a physical or natural ability.  You get whatever ability the new form should have.  

I'd suggest that the dragon and outsider broad ability to crossbreed is not natural, and so is not covered by this spell.  A person polymorphed into a dragon might be able to breed with other dragons, but not with much else.

Your third point opens up a can of worms bordering on the political, and I won't speculate.  The spell description includes nothing specifically relevant that I can see, so you can choose to run it any way you like.


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (May 6, 2003)

Centaur said:
			
		

> *Third*, what happens to an existing fetus when Polymorph is cast onto someone who is already pregnant?  Is the person protected from the effects by some mystical force to protect the child or is the fetus subject to the same transformation as the mother (i.e.. transformed to a fetal version of what mom is transformed into)?  Or is it not? What happens to the child if the pregnancy goes to term while under the influence of the pregnancy?




I'll pull something out of fantasy stories to answer this question.  I picked up a set of fairy tales, called something like "Enchanted Worlds," at a garage sale.  I think they were some kind of Time-Life series like you would buy off the TV, as they are lovely hardcover books with glossy pages and lots of pictures  There was one book for each theme - fairies, elves, giants, ghosts, wizards, enchantments, love, etc.

One of the stories, I believe in either the fairies or enchantment book, dealt with the question posed above.  The wife of a man was transformed into a dog to punish her husband.  However, she was pregnant at the time.  While her husband was eventually able to break the curse, the curser told him that the children's names weren't on the spell, and thus couldn't be broken.  Thus the man's potential heirs were born dogs, though his wife was returned to her natural form.  Now, they were very intelligent and loyal dogs, but still dogs.


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## DonAdam (May 6, 2003)

I'm going to try to stick to the descriptive here, but if this post gets out of hand by all means edit it away, mods:

It also depends on your view of conception. There is no doubt that it is a physical act, but many religions, including most Christian sects, also posit a divine action in conception (no discussion of the ethical implications, please).
Specifically, as far as I know (being a theology major) the Roman Catholic church posits the infusion of the intellectual soul as part of the act of conception. This act is performed by God, not by the couple, who participates in it.

If something similar happens in your campaign world, it would simply be an issue of divine fiat. Of course, that raises the question of whether what would be conceived would be of an intellectual nature.

And that, of course, opens up a whole range of potential problems.

So the moral of the story is, introducing metaphysical considerations thoroughly complicates things, and in my experience is rarely of value in D&D.

My solution? Just tell them that their "equipment" doesn't work, or avoid polymorphed sex in your games altogether.


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## BlackWych (May 7, 2003)

See the upcoming Book of Erotic Fantasy for details....


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## Monte At Home (May 7, 2003)

1. Probably.

2. "any part of the body... removed from the whole reverts back to the original form." So unless they are already genetically compatible, no. (This is why a polymorphed dragon in the form of a human, getting together with a human, still produces a half dragon)

3. I'd treat it as a part of the polymorphed creature's body.

4. Not sure that it changes anything.


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## Centaur (May 7, 2003)

Monte At Home said:
			
		

> *2. "any part of the body... removed from the whole reverts back to the original form." *




Heaven forbit I should correct Monte Cook but in case number 2 above, nothing is leavng the body of the polymorphed creature.

However I do see your point with regards to points 3 and 4.  It makes these two possibilities mute.

Thanks for the input.


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## Kahuna Burger (May 7, 2003)

All of these are going to come down to a dm call, but I'll give what my calls would be.



			
				Centaur said:
			
		

> *
> For the Purpose of argument, we'll keep the discussion to the use of Polymorph Other.
> 
> First, can a person under the effects of a polymorph spell become pregnant?
> ...





I would say yes in both cases. If the resulting fetus goes to term; in the case of the first I would give the child traces of both gnomish and elvish ancestry from the mother. In the case of the second, what happens if a dispell magic is cast of the pregnant "female" prior to childbirth : I would say that if the fetus is full term it would be "expelled" and possibly suffer shock, and if not would simply become part of the (again) male creatures body. The third option, of having a male with a soon to be dead and necrotic fetus stuck somewhere in his body cavity is kinda gross.



> *
> Second, Could a person induce pregnancy while under the effects of a polymorph spell?
> 
> For example:
> ...




I would certainly allow both polymorphed creatures to induce preganancy, and again in the case of a change of species, aspects of the orriginal species would be found in a resulting child. The child would also always be female if you wanna be psuedo genetics about it. (makes note to have a npc who is a lesbian love child concived with one mother polymorphed... maybe thats how amazons reproduce... high level druid = father/mother to the next generation....)

*



			Third, what happens to an existing fetus when Polymorph is cast onto someone who is already pregnant?  Is the person protected from the effects by some mystical force to protect the child or is the fetus subject to the same transformation as the mother (i.e.. transformed to a fetal version of what mom is transformed into)?  Or is it not? What happens to the child if the pregnancy goes to term while under the influence of the pregnancy?
		
Click to expand...


*
in the case of a female to female transformation, certainly a fetus would become a fetal whatever. If brought to term as a whatever, it would either have half breed traits, or be a whatever which a dispell magic would return to its mother's orriginal form depending on dm whim combined with how much of the pregnancy was spend in the polymorphed form. If a pregnant female is transformed into a male, the fetus is subsumed for the durration of transformation.

*



			Fourth, what if the form the person is polymorphed into is of a different Type than that of the persons natural form.  For example, a humanoid is transformed into a giant or a dragon.

We already know from the rules that Dragons and some Outsiders can assume compatible forms to breed with humans etc., what about the other way around or is this a factor of their supernatural existence or power?
		
Click to expand...


*
As above, the child of a polymorphed creature would have traits of both its matural and magically induced form. Count me also with those who say "compatability" of dragons et al is from their shapechanging and thus moot here.

Kahuna Burger


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## Kahuna Burger (May 7, 2003)

Monte At Home said:
			
		

> *
> 2. "any part of the body... removed from the whole reverts back to the original form." So unless they are already genetically compatible, no. (This is why a polymorphed dragon in the form of a human, getting together with a human, still produces a half dragon)*




Have to disagree. If a substance meant to leave the creatures body does so it retains its form. Otherwise, creatures polymorphed into spiders could not spin webs, no polymorphed creature would have working poison, etc. Sperm could be directly compared to poison in this case - produced naturally in the polyed creature, becomes a seperate substance while still in the polyed creature, and leaves the creature normally without being dispelled back into some unknown bodily fluid of the orriginal.

Kahuna Burger


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## Hypersmurf (May 7, 2003)

> *Otherwise, creatures polymorphed into spiders could not spin webs*




That's right - It's an [Ex] ability.



> *no polymorphed creature would have working poison,*




That's right - It's an [Ex] ability.

-Hyp.


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## thundershot (May 7, 2003)

*wanders into a thread where sperm is compared to poison*

 

Anywho, it would greatly depend on the DM, but I would say yes to all. Anything that creates more avenues for me to create new plots is okay by me. 



Chris


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## Kahuna Burger (May 7, 2003)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> *
> 
> That's right - It's an [Ex] ability.
> 
> *




Kahuna burger does a quick check then seriously mocks and insta houserules this silliness. Then has amusing thoughts about waste removal in polymorphed form that erics grandmother wouldn't want to hear...

There is no legitamate difference between a natural and extraordinary ability that is inherent in a non supernatural creature...

Kahuna Burger

PS, since my responses were how I would call it, they remain unchanged.


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## Kahuna Burger (May 7, 2003)

thundershot said:
			
		

> **wanders into a thread where sperm is compared to poison*
> *




Recalls ongoing "toxic substance/biohazard" joke but doesn't go into details due to grandma rule...  

Kahuna Burger


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## Hypersmurf (May 7, 2003)

> *There is no legitamate difference between a natural and extraordinary ability that is inherent in a non supernatural creature...*




Except the descriptor and the way they interact with the Polymorph chain, yeah.

-Hyp.


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## Monte At Home (May 7, 2003)

Well, the polymorph spell has been through a lot of changes since I left, but I can tell you that what I wrote was our original intention. That, in fact, is why that line is in the spell description.


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## Tonguez (May 7, 2003)

My answer to the result of all the above = *Scorcerers*

oh and maybe some 'natural lycanthorpes' (Garou) and one or two Templated Abberations (or Abberant Humanoids) 

but then I have a major hero in my campaign who is the daughter of a Half-Fiend Otyugh and his human bride and natural lycanthorpes are a dime a dozen (well maybe not quite that common)


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## Iron_Chef (May 7, 2003)

Polymorph Other say the creature "retains its own type" so a dwarf turned into an ogre (giant) is still considered a humanoid (dwarf) for all practical purposes. Does this help at all?


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## Hypersmurf (May 7, 2003)

> *Polymorph Other say the creature "retains its own type" so a dwarf turned into an ogre (giant) is still considered a humanoid (dwarf) for all practical purposes.*




I'd say for most _practical_ purposes he's considered an ogre 

For some abstract purposes he's still a dwarf, and the occasional practical one - like "Does Hold Person work?"

But to Joe Peasant, that thing what walked past were def'nitly un Ogger.

-Hyp.


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## Umbran (May 7, 2003)

Kahuna Burger said:
			
		

> *There is no legitamate difference between a natural and extraordinary ability that is inherent in a non supernatural creature...*




Well, let's see.  For the most part, spiders are Fine creatures.  The Polymorph Other only gets you down to Dimunitive.  There are only a couple of really big spiders that the spell might allow.  And they are known for their size, not for having particularly valuable poison or silk-spinning abilities. 

So, in those terms, a spider with lots of silk and powerful poison large enough for the spell is not found in nature - thus, they are supernatural.

Plus, let's not confuse "legitimate" with "good in the game".  It may seem illogical to you to classify something as "extraordinary", even though it is a normal functioning of a critter.  But what makes the game work well isn't necessarily what's logical.  Giving access to every single power of animals that seems "natural" (like strong silk and nasty poison) in that single spell is simply too much.  It makes the one spell grant far too many possible powers, it becomes too flexible and useful for it's level.  Thus, the restriction.


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## David Argall (May 7, 2003)

*remember to give the player problems*

"First, can a person under the effects of a polymorph spell become pregnant?

Second, Could a person induce pregnancy while under the effects of a polymorph spell?"

   Obviously yes in both cases.   Under rules - The polymorphed critter gains the "natural abilities" of the new form, which would clearly include doing what comes naturally...
    And we do want complications for the PC, which means pregnancy should be a definite possibility.

    "If pregnancy is possible under 1 or 2 above, what would happen to the fetus when the spell is reversed? What happens to the child when the pregnancy comes to term?"

     1st point is that the PC won't know, and should be quite worried about the worst [however defined by the PC] happening.

    The DM should likely rule according to what keeps life most interesting for the PC.  This means the kid is still there in most cases.  [A male polyed to female and becoming pregnant should still be pregnant, with both father/mother and child in danger unless they gain some magic aid.  As a technical point, a man can give birth, with the assistance of a few million$ in highly skilled doctoring, who preferably have tried this about a dozen times before to work out the kinks.  Those of us who are not insane billionaires of course prefer the more regular methods.] Most likely the child appears a normal member of the mother's race, but some odd points will start to appear.  Where the DM wants a quest for magic correction, the child should be born the wrong race or of mixed race.     

    "Third, what happens to an existing fetus when Polymorph is cast onto someone who is already pregnant?"

    Here again, eliminating the child is too dull.  So the kid survives the experience, with complications.  The kid would be an apparent member of the mother's apparent race when born.  Whether she is currenly polymorphed or has been changed back, there will be signs that there is something odd about the kid.

   "Fourth, what if the form the person is polymorphed into is of a different Type than that of the persons natural form. For example, a humanoid is transformed into a giant or a dragon."

    The standard rule of fantasy is that 1 [female] + 1 [male] = 3.  The race of either parent is not important.    One prefers the same race, but successful mating with just about any other is entirely possible.  So our humanoid/dragon can get kids by either race, or by a 3rd, tho the polymorphed will likely prefer the old race who will reject him/her while he/she may be sought by members of the new race despite his/her disinterest in the idea.


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## Zappo (May 7, 2003)

"Nooo, noone could ever _need_ a BoEF, really, it's for perverts only, who on Earth would need rules for sex..."


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## Kahuna Burger (May 7, 2003)

Zappo said:
			
		

> *"Nooo, noone could ever need a BoEF, really, it's for perverts only, who on Earth would need rules for sex..."
> *




Were a book to be advertised as adressing social and biological repurcussions of sex and reproduction *without* having a stronger focus on pornographic images, mechanical rules for the actual act, rape spells or imature thought in general, I'd be all for it. Such a suplement does not yet exist nor has one been advertised, and sadly, marketing mentality will likely not allow it.

Kahuna Burger


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## jasper (May 7, 2003)

UMM guys how can you tell the difference between male and female dragons, spiders etc. 

As to all questions it depends on the intent of caster.
First of all gee i get polymorph into JayLo. Aint no man touch me. And I going to start hunting down and busting knee caps of a certain spell slinger.

As to girl to boy. The baby is carrying to term. Then the midwife god helps with the delievery. Them ma, pa, and offspring are going to bust a cap into a certain so to be dead spellsinger.


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## The Sigil (May 7, 2003)

Centaur said:
			
		

> For the Purpose of argument, we'll keep the discussion to the use of *Polymorph Other*.
> 
> *First*, can a person under the effects of a polymorph spell become pregnant?



Maybe.  

Look at the wording here from the SRD: _The subject retains its own type, extraordinary abilities, spells, and spell-like abilities, but not its supernatural abilities._

That the subject retains its own type tells me that the change is, in effect, cosmetic.  Your DNA (which IMO determines your creature type) remains the same, even if your physical form has been altered.

Taking this to the extremely bizarre medical example, I could be surgically altered to look exactly like, say, a small pony.  Yes, it would take extensive operation, but in theory, it could be done, yes?  But I am still a human... I am still me... despite the cosmetic change, I still have a human's DNA... and consequently, the sperm (or eggs) I produce will also be "human."

Having tackled that, let's go to your specifics...



> For example:
> 1) A Female Elf is Polymorphed into a female Gnome.



Yes... provided the coupling is one that could normally impregnate an ELF (not a gnome), as the DNA of her eggs must still match that of the potential sire.



> 2) A male human is Polymorphed into a female human.



A very tough call... but I would say "no..." on grounds that the character's DNA is still "male human" (i.e., has XY chromosomes) and that while he may be "surgically altered," his body chemistry is still wrong... he still has a "man's chemistry."  Also, women are born with their full complement of eggs and no not produce them later in life, while sperm are generated throughout a man's life... and I don't think the scope of the polymorph spell would include converting cells into egg cells... especially not sperm cells because then you could get a "Y" sperm cell transformed into an egg, which suddenly allows for a YY match on potential offspring (remember, male is XY, female is XX) - it is essentially an undefined quantity.



> *Second*, Could a person induce pregnancy while under the effects of a polymorph spell?
> 
> For example:
> 3) A Male Elf polymorphed into a Male Gnome.



Following the same line of reasoning as above, the elf could induce pregnancy - but only in creatures that can normally be impregnated by a male elf.



> 4) A Female Human Polymorphed into a Male Human.



This is a little bit tougher than the Male -> Female question.  I would lean towards "no" for symmetry, but the fact is, that if she has "working glands" there is no need to polymorph her "eggs" into "sperm" (in fact, it could be argued that if this is the case, one coupling would render her infertile should she ever reverse the process, as females do not continuously generate eggs)... instead, these glands would work as normal - but her DNA would be XX instead of XY so instead of a 50% chance of male, 50% chance of female offspring, she would have a 100% chance of female offspring.

For symmetry purposes, I personally would lean towards, "no" -- but within the interpretations I have set, I can see "yes, but those offspring will always be female" as an acceptable answer as well... pick whichever one suits you best - though the second interpretation suddenly makes the perpetuation of an Amazonian society, 100% sans men, quite possible (provided they can find a polymorpher) and makes for some interesting cultural implications among Amazons and/or lesbians (and I will let that discussion drop at that - I think it's valid to point out that there are implications for an Amazon society as they are a topic in fantasy RPGs, but I think those implications are so obvious as to not need further exposition).



> If pregnancy is possible under 1 or 2 above, what would happen to the fetus when the spell is reversed?  What happens to the child when the pregnancy comes to term?



Well, this one actually becomes pretty clear cut when you assume that the change is 100% cosmetic and that pregnancy is induced in the same manner as the "pre-polymorph" type.  The fetus is, in essence, wholly unaffected by the polymorph spell - if the father/mother was ORIGINALLY a human, regardless of the form it later polymorphed into, the child inherits "human" genes from that parent.  (Replace "human" with race of choice for other examples).

This also goes well with the existing system for describing the genesis of half-fiends, half-dragons, half-elves, et al.  If one parent is a dragon, regardless of the form he later polymorphs into, the child receives a draconic heritage.

See below for a fuller discussion of what happens when a pregnancy comes to term.



> *Third*, what happens to an existing fetus when Polymorph is cast onto someone who is already pregnant?  Is the person protected from the effects by some mystical force to protect the child or is the fetus subject to the same transformation as the mother (i.e.. transformed to a fetal version of what mom is transformed into)?  Or is it not? What happens to the child if the pregnancy goes to term while under the influence of the pregnancy?



This is the TOUGH question... tougher than the other two, because we cannot rely upon the single simple assumption used earlier to deduce the answers.  I do not think that pregnancy is a sufficient condition to protect one from the force of magic, so the person is not protected by some mystical force in order to protect the child.

The discussion also borders on the political, because the answer can be shaped by whether or not you believe the fetus is "part of the mother's body" and therefore subject to the effects of the spell or "a separate and distinct entity" and therefore NOT subject to the effects of the spell.  Based on that RL (political) viewpoint alone, you are liable to get separate answers.  I will try to field the question from both POVs and let you decide which one you want to use.

"Part of the mother's body" - along with everything else in mom, the fetus undergoes a cosmetic change into a fetal version of the end-result-of-polymorph-creature in question.  If the pregnancy goes to term, and the baby is born, we can consult the description of the spell: _Any part of the body or piece of equipment that is separated from the whole reverts to its original form._  In this case, part of the mother's body (the fetus) is separated from the whole, and therefore reverts to its original form - ostensibly once the separation is complete (e.g., when the umbilical cord is cut - make sure baby is clear of mommy if mommy has been polymorphed into a tiny form compared to a normal baby).  So the child is born looking like the polymorphed creature, but immediately returns to its normal (non-polymorphed) form upon completion of birth (remember, its genetic makeup was unchanged by the polymorph).

"A separate entity" - The fetus does NOT undergo the cosmetic change - it is a target separate and distinct from mom; in mom's new form, the cosmetic changes do not affect the DNA, so there is no worry about carrying a human baby in a cow's uterus - it's a human baby in a human uterus that happens to be shaped like a cow's uterus.  If the pregnancy goes to term, the baby comes out looking like "normal."  If mom is polymorphed into a cow, it literally looks like a cow giving birth to a baby human, for example. 

*Note on this second interpretation: * This method opens a whole 'nother can of worms - you could theoretically use the polymorph spell to polymorph mom into a form that is physically too small to contain the fetus (i.e., you could transform a woman who is nine months pregnant into a pigeon, and the pigeon is physically too small to contain the fetus).  For "ease of use," I would suggest that we add a "side effect" to the polymorph effect - a simple Reduce effect targeted on the baby that reduces the baby in size along with mom - and which is dispelled upon birth (as the polymorph if you consider the fetus as part of the mother, above).  Doing it any other way opens too many cans of worms - what happens if mom is polymorphed into something small and later gets pregnant and the baby then grows too big?  What happens if mom is a couple of days pregnant and then polymorphed into something small?  For simplicity's sake, let's just say that baby - including babies sired after the polymorph takes effect, while not changed in physical form, gets Reduced to scale with mom (adding a 1st-level effect on the side does not seem like overkill).

In both cases, if the form in question lays eggs, etc., I would suggest that the fetus "reverts to normal" (size and/or form) when the egg is expelled from the body - this CAN have deleterious consequences to the baby - I would suggest that the child can survive in the egg as though still in utero for a couple of minutes should the egg be off sufficient size to contain the child (as that is the function of an egg) but because of a physiology not suited for prolonged time in an egg (e.g., needing fresh blood through an umbilical cord, not just nutrients through an egg), moms-to-be are strongly encouraged to make sure the baby gets attention immediately (including breaking the egg) or risk the child suffocating/drowning... of course, eggs that are too small to hold the child rupture when the child is born and, while they make the child a little messier, have no deleterious effects.

The final thing to consider (in both cases) is "what happens if a pregnant woman is polymorphed into a man?"  (Since my view on impregnation was that a man polymorphed into a woman cannot become pregnant, the "what happens if a man becomes pregnant and the effect is later dispelled is not needed - and it seems obvious to me that a woman polymorphed into a man cannot then become pregnant).  Again, for the sake of greatest simplicity, I would rule that because of the potential for damage to mother's and baby's body, a polymorph spell cannot change the gender of a pregnant woman - the polymorph works as normal in all respects except the gender cannot be changed.  (Implication: It makes for a GREAT pregnancy test.)



> *Fourth*, what if the form the person is polymorphed into is of a different Type than that of the persons natural form.  For example, a humanoid is transformed into a giant or a dragon.
> 
> We already know from the rules that Dragons and some Outsiders can assume compatible forms to breed with humans etc., what about the other way around or is this a factor of their supernatural existence or power?



It is a factor of their supernatural existence.  Remember, your DNA doesn't change - if you can't impregnate someone due to genetic differences, you can't impregnate them while polymorphed, either (if it's merely a question of different size categories and resultant literal physical inability to mate under normal circumstances rather than strict genetics - and I'll leave it at that - you can impregnate someone while polymorphed subject to the depictions above).



> How would you run this in your own campaign?  Are there rules concerning it anywhere?  Has it ever been discussed before?



As I outlined above.  Not that I am aware of.  Probably, but I wasn't privy to the discussion.

Seriously, once you make the assumption - based on the fact that your type DOESN'T change - that the change is purely cosmetic and therefore has no effect on your genetic structure, the "rules" fall out rather easily and the only times we have to "fudge" a bit are (1) if you believe that the fetus is separate from the woman and have to concern yourself with childbirth and physically getting the fetus to "fit" within the polymorphed form no matter what and (2) changing the gender of someone already pregnant.  And the two simple fudges suggested (a "Reduce" effect on the fetus in the first case and the removal of the ability to select gender in the second) are simple and have pretty nice results... including the nifty "pregnancy test" side effect. 

Worth noting (for me) is that the "litter of puppies" example above (well, we can remove the curse on your wife, but not your kids) doesn't do it for me - it allows a spell that ostensibly has a single target to affect multiple targets with no increase in required spell power (level), and I don't like that one, though it makes for interesting RP possibilities.

--The Sigil


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## LazarusLong42 (May 7, 2003)

Kahuna Burger said:
			
		

> *Were a book to be advertised as adressing social and biological repurcussions of sex and reproduction without having a stronger focus on pornographic images, mechanical rules for the actual act, rape spells or imature thought in general, I'd be all for it. Such a suplement does not yet exist nor has one been advertised, and sadly, marketing mentality will likely not allow it.*




Indeed.  I'd buy it.  The societal implications of pregnancy, birth, and motherhood/fatherhood on adventurers would be particularly interesting.  But yes, we're not likely to see it, or, frex, a treatise on evolution's place in D&D as influenced by divine and arcane magic, or anything like that.  But they'd be interesting to write 

/biologist

As to pregnancy and polymorph... personally, if a _polymorphed_ creature became pregnant, I would simply not allow the effect to be dispelled.  The _polymorph_ effect was cast on a single creature, but is now in effect on two creatures; _dispel magic_ either targets one creature (which the pregnant creature is not) or an area where it still targets creatures individually, in which case it can't figure out what creature the _polymorph_ effect was cast on.

Similarly, _polymorph_ spells could not affect a pregnant creature, either in her normal form or a _polymorphed_ form, because she is, for the moment, not one creature.  (And yes, this would have to become consistent:  _bull's strength_ and similar spells that target one creature would have no effect; 3R _haste_ or 3E _mass haste_ would affect the pregnant creature as if she were two creatures; etc.)

This could lead to some interesting problems, especially if a female adventurer who was only a month pregnant got hit with one of these spells.  I guess it'd be more effective than killing a rabbit...


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## BOZ (May 7, 2003)

well, here's my take on it.

it's the DM's option as to whether or not a creature's DNA transforms during the polymorph or if polymorph is merely a form change.

if the DNA changes, then i'd say that the baby's DNA is decided at the time of conception, and remains so regardless of any subsequent form changes the mother goes through.

if the DNA does not change, then the baby has the mother's natural DNA.  if such a union is capable of producing children, then the baby will be a mixture of the mother and father's true forms.

in order for a baby to be born, it must be inside a womb (for most races) yes?  well, if a creature is impregnated (whether said creature is naturally a female or a male polymorphed into a female) then it must retain a womb to give birth correct?  there are a few ways to deal with this, should the mother take on a form that does not normally have a womb:

1. the baby ceases to exist.

2. the mother cannot change form while pregnant.

3. the mother will have a womb capable of supporting the baby, no matter what form she/he/it takes.

sound reasonable?


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## Centaur (May 7, 2003)

I've noticed a few people reference using dispel magic to reverse the efects of a polymorph other Spell.  This is not possible.

To reverse the effects of a polymorphs Other Spell, you need to use another Polymorph Other Spell with the tartget form being "YourSelf".

Might make a difference in a couple of peoples POV.

EDIT: Retraction
My Mistake, see comments below!


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## John Crichton (May 7, 2003)

Centaur said:
			
		

> *I've noticed a few people reference using dispel magic to reverse the efects of a polymorph other Spell.  This is not possible.
> 
> To reverse the effects of a polymorphs Other Spell, you need to use another Polymorph Other Spell with the tartget form being "YourSelf".
> 
> Might make a difference in a couple of peoples POV. *



Huh?  No where in the Polymorph spell description is this stated.  Dispell Magic is one of the surefire ways to beat a polymorph.  Unless I have missed some errata somewhere, that is how it is played...


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## Kahuna Burger (May 7, 2003)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> *Huh?  No where in the Polymorph spell description is this stated.  Dispell Magic is one of the surefire ways to beat a polymorph.  Unless I have missed some errata somewhere, that is how it is played... *




Yeah, duration is permanant, not instantaneous. Dispell all the way, baby...


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## Centaur (May 7, 2003)

Op my bad, duration is permanent not Instantaneous like I was thinking....

opps.


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## Storm Raven (May 7, 2003)

*Re: Re: Polymorph & Pregnancy*



			
				The Sigil said:
			
		

> *It is a factor of their supernatural existence.  Remember, your DNA doesn't change - if you can't impregnate someone due to genetic differences, you can't impregnate them while polymorphed, either (if it's merely a question of different size categories and resultant literal physical inability to mate under normal circumstances rather than strict genetics - and I'll leave it at that - you can impregnate someone while polymorphed subject to the depictions above).*




Your entire argument has a flaw: it assumes that in a D&D world, creatures heritage is determined by DNA. It is entirely possible that DNA doesn't exist for D&D creatures, they operate on an entirely different model (such as those believed by ancient or midaevil culture).

Even if DNA exists for creatures in a campaign world, the argument also assumes (based on nothing more than supposition), that your DNA doesn't change when you are polymorphed based on the extremely tenuous connection that you retain your type. But type is only used for a variety of magical and supernatural effects, assuming that these effects are tied to your DNA seems a bit of a stretch as well.


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## WizarDru (May 7, 2003)

Centaur said:
			
		

> *I've noticed a few people reference using dispel magic to reverse the efects of a polymorph other Spell.  This is not possible.
> 
> To reverse the effects of a polymorphs Other Spell, you need to use another Polymorph Other Spell with the tartget form being "YourSelf".
> 
> Might make a difference in a couple of peoples POV. *




JC is correct, I think you may be confused by the appelation 'Permanent'.  You would be correct, if the duration of the spell were 'instantaneous', but it isn't.  The spell merely never wears off on it's own.  In other words, I polymorph Other (soon to be Baneful Polymorph) Dragon A.  He is now a bull terrier.  He will remain so until the spell is removed, or supplanted by another Polymorph to effectively counteract the first one.  A disple magic or greater dispelling could remove it two minutes from now, or two hundred years.  The spell never expires, until disrupted.  In an anti-magic field, the spell would be suppressed, reverting the subject back to normal (and hence, the possibliity of a good story around that concept).

And this is exactly the sort of subject material that I was proposing would make the BoEF useful, I might add.  KB, where did Gwen mention that there would be rules for the actual act and a mechanical treatment of rape?  I was under the impression that she had said exactly the oppposite, as had AV.


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## Centaur (May 7, 2003)

The entire basis for this question was because I was thinking (and have been running in my campaign for a long time) that the duration was _Instantaneous_ and Not _Permanent_.

Kind of puts things in a whole new light (for me anyway).


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## Umbran (May 7, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> *it's the DM's option as to whether or not a creature's DNA transforms during the polymorph or if polymorph is merely a form change.*




There's actually a step before this:

It's the DM's option as to whether the concept of "DNA" is applicable to creatures in the world.  

When trying to come up with a reasonable ruling that can cover multiple worlds that use the same system, it is usually wise to avoid inserting real-world science into the discussion.  

While Monte does have the inside scoop on what the authors intended, his explanation does seem to have that weakness - it appears to rely on a modern scientific version of reproductive mechanics to have transferred genetic material "part of the creature".

One can simplify it - avoid all mention of normal biology.  Choose siring and carrying a child to be either a natural or Extraordinary ability.  Choose ability to cross-breed similarly.  Once that's done, the rest pretty much follows logically in the spell description.


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## LGodamus (May 7, 2003)

Out of all the posts , I am 100% with the sigil on this topic....
The spell indicates you retain your type , meaning,to me, that the changes do not affect your true being only your form....so no weird cross species  odd interbreeding for my game.


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## Centaur (May 7, 2003)

*New Thread*

Based on the sudden relization of a wrong interpretation of the duration of polymorph, I have started a new thread under "House Rules" regarding the implications of changing the duration of the Polymorph Other spell from Permanent to Instantaneous.

Anyone wishing to participate here is a direct link. Polymorph Other "Duration" 

Have At!


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## BOZ (May 7, 2003)

Umbran said:
			
		

> *There's actually a step before this:
> 
> It's the DM's option as to whether the concept of "DNA" is applicable to creatures in the world.
> 
> When trying to come up with a reasonable ruling that can cover multiple worlds that use the same system, it is usually wise to avoid inserting real-world science into the discussion.*




that's basically what i meant.


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## The Sigil (May 7, 2003)

Umbran said:
			
		

> It's the DM's option as to whether the concept of "DNA" is applicable to creatures in the world.
> 
> When trying to come up with a reasonable ruling that can cover multiple worlds that use the same system, it is usually wise to avoid inserting real-world science into the discussion.
> 
> ...



Of course it it usually wise to avoid inserting real-world science into the discussion...

But what I said regarding DNA was, in my mind, basically a shorthand for:

"The polymorph spell's description says that a creature's type does not change when polymorphed.

"A dwarf is made of 'humanoid (dwarf)' stuff.

"Therefore, a dwarf polymorphed into a pony is, in effect, a pony made of 'humanoid (dwarf)' stuff... not pony stuff... to keep its type.

"That the type does not change implies that the form is not what is important so much as the matter that makes it up... and if the stuff that makes up the creature determines type, a convenient shorthand for this is DNA as it is something that is readily understood." 

I then DID make the presumption to jump to real-world genetics with the DNA examples (esp. the XX/XY examples).  My apologies.

In my experience, though, using "real world" rules is generally a good way to approach a problem unless you have a compelling reason not to - IOW, I assume the "real world" is the default until someone tells me specifically, "it doesn't apply."

Regardless, I tried to make my ruling so that we had the fewest additional assumptions (and I think, given the Type/DNA argument, that my assumption is a "reasonable" interpretation) - one - and the fewest potential rules problems.  The solution I proposed fits (IMO) elegantly with the existing rules and pre-empts a lot of potentially sticky situations.

When striking a balance between ease of use and absolutely perfect detail, I'll take "easier to use and universally apply if not quite as detailed/interesting" over "detailed/interesting, but impossible to use without DM fiat in every single case."

IOW, give the players my rule, and there is no argument.  Give them an "it depends" rule and the DM can be accused of favoritism - or worse, inconsistent rulings. 

But everyone has their own opinions, all equally valid.  I just happen to like mine best. 

--The Sigil


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## Centaur (May 7, 2003)

The Sigil said:
			
		

> *
> Regardless, I tried to make my ruling so that we had the fewest additional assumptions (and I think, given the Type/DNA argument, that my assumption is a "reasonable" interpretation) - one - and the fewest potential rules problems.  The solution I proposed fits (IMO) elegantly with the existing rules and pre-empts a lot of potentially sticky situations.
> *




There is of course nothing wrong with this assumption.

My assumption has always been that a creatures type is linked to it's Soul or Spirit and that the Body (DNA or not) was just a meat bag that the Soul Resides within.

From this we derive that the polymorph spell affects the meat bag and not the Soul.  If we make this assumption then we need to decide if Conception of a child is based on the interaction of Two Souls or if it starts with the Meat bags interacting and is therafter "Possessed" by a spirit.  This in itself opens a whole new ball of wax.


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## Norfleet (May 7, 2003)

I'd have to say that the effects of a polymorph being placed upon, or dispelled from, a pregnant character, could become extremely messy.

This is not dissimilar from the messy results that occur when a monster which has performed a swallow whole attack on a character who is not dead is abruptly turned into a bunny rabbit.

Depending on the form assumed or reverted to, life support for the internally contained may become impossible, resulting in unpleasant side effects. This as no different from the side effects which result from a polymorph on any character currently hosting a parasitic organism.

As for whether or not a polymorphed character can impregnate or be impregnated, according to the description of polymoph, this is a yes, since the "polymorphed creature acquires the physical and natural abilities of the creature it has been polymorphed into". Don't think it gets much more physical or natural than that.


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## Sejs (May 7, 2003)

> UMM guys how can you tell the difference between male and female dragons, spiders etc.




By looking at its driver's lisence.




> Look at the wording here from the SRD: The subject retains its own type, extraordinary abilities, spells, and spell-like abilities, but not its supernatural abilities.




Whoa.. so if say I polymorph other an _awakened_ medium-size monsterous spider into a female drow the resultant creature will retain it's poisonous bite and ability to spin webs?

Interesting.. uh, but where would the poison or webs come from?  Drow don't have poison glands or spinnerettes..


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## PowerWordDumb (May 7, 2003)

*Good one*

Nice post Sigil, for me your line of reasoning makes all the difference.

A crucial distinction is that when your human (or dwarf, goblin, etc) is polymorphed into a dragon (or whatever), you are *NOT* a dragon - you're a human shaped like a dragon.

The fact you can use all the existing "natural" abilities simply means that your arms, legs, tail, etc all move the right way for the current form you take, and that your claws are appropriately sharp, and your wings are capable of physically sustaining flight.  Not that you have the internal workings to breathe fire, or whatever.

So... physically you could make the attempt to impregnate (or be impregnated), but the "stuff" of your makeup would still only impregnate (or get impregnated) based upon your proper creature type... in this case human.

At least, makes sense to me.  Other interpretations are fine, but for now this one is what I like the best.


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## The Sigil (May 7, 2003)

Sejs said:
			
		

> Whoa.. so if say I polymorph other an _awakened_ medium-size monsterous spider into a female drow the resultant creature will retain it's poisonous bite and ability to spin webs?
> 
> Interesting.. uh, but where would the poison or webs come from?  Drow don't have poison glands or spinnerettes..



No, they don't... but spiders do.

Perhaps if you think of polymorph as a spell that can stretch/pull/shrink/rearrange skin, musculature, and bones (including "adding new appendages") but that does not add (nor subtract) internal organs you can see this better.

The spider's poison gland isn't gone when the polymorph occurs, it just shrinks so as to sit right above her palate - or maybe right below her jaw.  The silk glands are shrunk and possibly moved around, but are still there.

In fact, the more I think about it, the more that seems a simpler way to think of polymorph than even in my earlier post... polymorph simply shrinks/rearranges skin, musculature, bones, et al but neither adds nor subtracts internal organs (and their related abilities).  Now, of course, when your mouth is warped/reshaped into a froggy mouth (when I turn you into a toad), you can't cast spells because you can't properly vocalize the words.

Does that make any sense to anyone else?

Polymorph doesn't turn a halfling into a dragon... it turns a halfling into a dragon-shaped halfling. 

As for changing gender, well, I think we all know that the appropriate "parts" can be recreated by rearranging tissue without actually haveing to add or subtract organs themselves.  But any further down that path and I'm likely to get the thread closed. 

--The Sigil


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## PowerWordDumb (May 7, 2003)

Makes perfect sense to me, Sigil, but then I was already sold.



Would be nice if WoTC revisited some of the descriptive text for 3.5e... clarifications such as this and the recent AoO discussions would greatly reduce some of the popular misinterpretations going around today.


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## Sejs (May 7, 2003)

*nod*  Good way of putting it, Sigil.  It would actually clear up a good ammount of confusion if that were just stated in the spell's information to begin with.


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## Hypersmurf (May 7, 2003)

> *Perhaps if you think of polymorph as a spell that can stretch/pull/shrink/rearrange skin, musculature, and bones (including "adding new appendages") but that does not add (nor subtract) internal organs you can see this better.*




So what happens when a wizard polymorphs into a gelatinous cube, or a druid wildshapes into an air elemental?

-Hyp.


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## Centaur (May 7, 2003)

The Sigil said:
			
		

> *
> Perhaps if you think of polymorph as a spell that can stretch/pull/shrink/rearrange skin, musculature, and bones (including "adding new appendages") but that does not add (nor subtract) internal organs you can see this better.
> *




But polymorph does add organs.  If you turn into a fish, you get gills to extract oxygen from the water.  While related to our lungs, gills are not the same.

I personaly prefer a description that changes the body completely from one form to another rather than some sort of "Warp effect" as implied by The Sigil (nothing wrong with his view either).


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## LGodamus (May 8, 2003)

ok then...we  just need to slap an (ex) before the procreate special ability.......


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## Hypersmurf (May 8, 2003)

> *ok then...we  just need to slap an (ex) before the procreate special ability....... *




"Mummy, where do half-dragons come from?"

-Hyp.


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## John Crichton (May 8, 2003)

*To Centaur:*  Out of the explainations/suggestions you have seen so far, what makes the most sense or works the most for you.  I was going to throw my 2 cents in but I'm wondering where the thread-starter stands based on 40+ posts.  

I do think this is an interesting topic and I'm thinking of using aspects of it as a plot-hook...


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## Centaur (May 8, 2003)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> *To Centaur:  Out of the explainations/suggestions you have seen so far, what makes the most sense or works the most for you.  I was going to throw my 2 cents in but I'm wondering where the thread-starter stands based on 40+ posts.
> 
> I do think this is an interesting topic and I'm thinking of using aspects of it as a plot-hook... *




First I would like to thank everyone for their input, it has helped me a lot (not to mention my missconception on the duration fau pa).

What works the best for me is to assume that a persons Soul can be considered a seperate piece from their body.  However, for the act of procreation to occur, their needs to be some sort of interaction between the two.  The Soul is where the "Creature Type" Remains, not with the body.

If a compatible male and female body conjoin then new life can be created.  Once this life is created, the souls of each participant then have a recepticle into which they can pour the _Spark of Life_.  Once they both have deposited their spark then a new soul has been created in the new life form.

The result is that the basic life form created will initialy appear similiar to a cross breeding of the male and female forms.  However, if the resultant soul has any su sp or ex abilites, these will eventualy manifest and could alter the final apperence of the child.

Based on the original question posed,
1) Can become Pregnant
2) Can become Pregnant
3) Can Induce Pregnancy
4) Can Induce Pregnancy (even though it has left the body and should revert to it's original for it is actaly not part of the male anatomy but rather something that it produces)

As for the reversal of a polymorph on a pregnat person, they gestation would continue (even in the man as we have a vestigual womb) and would eventualy come to term as the original thing concieved, not what the new form of the person is.

A person already pregant who is polymorped would be in much the same position as a preson who had a polymorph reversed.

I think I'll run the Type thing on a case by case basis blending parts of the two souls as I see fit.

One Idea I am toying with is to have the "Mother" Stuck in the current form until after the pregnacy goes to term and perhapse even a little while afterwards so that the child can be properly weined (spelling?) say for at least six months to a year.  Could provide for some interesting roleplaying.

Hope this helps John

I'm sure we'll all be working out the kinks in whatever system we decide to use for some time to come.

I also like to run Polymorph so that the normal Chemical based "Instincs" based on smells (Pharamones) and such are based on the body and have a direct effect on the mind.  This makes it is that a woman transformed into a man would find women sexualy attractive and would find themselves thinking about sex all the time (excess testosterone).  And Visaversa.

Note:
I may edit this or repost later, must go home to wife now before she calls.  Work day over 1/2 hour ago, have to pick up dinner for hockey game, go Canucks.


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## Kahuna Burger (May 8, 2003)

Centaur said:
			
		

> *
> 
> But polymorph does add organs.  If you turn into a fish, you get gills to extract oxygen from the water.  While related to our lungs, gills are not the same.
> 
> I personaly prefer a description that changes the body completely from one form to another rather than some sort of "Warp effect" as implied by The Sigil (nothing wrong with his view either). *




Damn, beat me to it. While this would be an interesting spell, its not polymorph as it stands. Its possible that a truely wonky type (like myself) would respond to this by making polymorph do what most people assume it should (change one thing into another in a way that makes consistent sense) and raising the level slightly to acount for extraordinary abilities. Then you add a spell even lower level than polymorph and call it topolomorph to do the things sigil is suggesting. Which could not turn a person into a fish that can survive in water, or a dog into a snake with working poison glands (or to a certain extent a giant spider into a drow, since bone and skin are organs) but could do mammal to mammal pretty well.

Just out of curiousity, do people apply this interpretation of the polymorph spell to wildshape, esp the elementals? If so... um, what is the point of the ability? Seems like it would be easier to do a "megan from excalibur" thing and let the druid just get a little bigger/smaller/stronger/faster/add claws (but not multiple attacks... dear god, does anyone not let druids use multiple attacks in wildshape?) Or is there a big ol' adendum to wildshape to make it not the same as polymorph? Blink Blink.... whoa what about scent?

Kahuna Burger


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## Kahuna Burger (May 8, 2003)

Centaur said:
			
		

> *
> One Idea I am toying with is to have the "Mother" Stuck in the current form until after the pregnacy goes to term and perhapse even a little while afterwards so that the child can be properly weined (spelling?) say for at least six months to a year.  Could provide for some interesting roleplaying.
> *




Danger, will robinson, DANGER!!! Could and would make being female a completely unballancing occurance, which strikes me as against both the letter and spirit of the rules as written. If you are not a druid (or to some extent other spellcaster) you have "second save" (check to see if I'm pregnant and didn't know yet!) against a spell based on your gender, and if you are a druid... well, lets just say that if any stage of pregnancy inhibited polymorph, the iconic druid would *not* be female. 



> *
> I also like to run Polymorph so that the normal Chemical based "Instincs" based on smells (Pharamones) and such are based on the body and have a direct effect on the mind.  This makes it is that a woman transformed into a man would find women sexualy attractive and would find themselves thinking about sex all the time (excess testosterone).  And Visaversa.
> *




Gah! More Danger! Red alert! (ehem) I mean, if no one in your groups is (or is close to) a gay, lesbian, trans or otherwise "not gender stereotyped" individual, I guess telling a person what their characters personality would be based on sex would be... fine... *twitch*

And if your players are willing to have their roleplaying a new form limited by your assumptions rather than their own ideas... *double twitch*

Kahuna Burger


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## KingCroMag (May 8, 2003)

Wasn't there a page on wizards (either a adventure or location hook) that describe a transmuter who turned dogs and rats into more valuable pets and operated a ranch to breed polymorphed animals. I know web based things do not have the precedence as the core rules, but something to think about.

-KCM


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## Centaur (May 8, 2003)

Wow, after tonights Hocky game, I may just write off the sport all together.  I'll know tommorow night.

At any rate.



			
				Kahuna Burger said:
			
		

> *
> Danger, will robinson, DANGER!!! Could and would make being female a completely unballancing occurance, which strikes me as against both the letter and spirit of the rules as written.*




As I said, only toying with the idea.  Likely what will happen is that I will use this idea as a one off freak occurence (a curse if you will) on an NPC that cannot afford the political ramifications of the situation and hire the PC's to do something about it.



			
				Kahuna Burger said:
			
		

> *
> Gah! More Danger! Red alert! (ehem) I mean, if no one in your groups is (or is close to) a gay, lesbian, trans or otherwise "not gender stereotyped" individual, I guess telling a person what their characters personality would be based on sex would be... fine... *twitch*
> *




Some people are more "Open Minded" than others.  In my group there are one or two people who could roleplay the situation and one or two that would have such a problem with that they would just never put themselves into the situation (and I won't force it on them).

However as a male DM, with a mostly male players, I quite often find myself roleplaying the other side of "Romantic" encounters in many a game.  While I would never even think about a guy in that way in real life, I have no problem protraying it in the game universe.  A certain amount of detatchment is always neccecary.

Course, it could be used a different way. A PC turned into a cow or horse may suddenly find the smell and taste of grass appetizing.  At leaste they won't starve while their stuck this way till the party reverses the effect.

Remember that it's all about escapeism and "fantasy" roleplaying.  Besides, we as people have instinctual urges to do many things that society calls illegal, such as killing and such.  However we have the will and the trained politeness to hold ourselves back, most of the time.

I personaly think that the *Art of Shapechanging* in any roleplaying scenario is vastly underrated.  I however probably use it far to much.

Anyway, enough off topic, back to the thread...

Some have said that the ability to procreate should be ex ability or such.  While this may be one way to solve the dilema I don't think I will use it in my game.

I generaly view any ability that is labled as EX, SP, or SU as something that gives the character or entity a game system advantage. I don't think, in most cases, being able to become or induce pregnancy would be an advantage to the characte, expecialy the way most of us play the game.  The last thing we want is to be tied down with this sort of responsibility (in the game).  

Therefore, if anything it is a disadvantage of a natural nature, just like a small creatures strenght or a large creaters dexterity.  It could be used to great ends by an imaginative DM.  Just don't over use.

At any rate, I half expected this post to be ignored or trashed after a few posts, so I'm happy to see that in the first few days of my posting to this site I could generate such a hail of comments.

Keep Posting, less the lines become dusty....


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## Hypersmurf (May 8, 2003)

> *I generaly view any ability that is labled as EX, SP, or SU as something that gives the character or entity a game system advantage.*




Light Sensitivity (Ex): Orcs suffer a -1 penalty to attack rolls in bright sunlight or within the radius of a daylight spell.

-Hyp.


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## tarchon (May 8, 2003)

I was kicking this around a while ago, a template, untested, un-UL approved:

Monster Title: Shiftling
Type: shapechanger
Hit Dice: as base creature
Initiative: as base creature
Speed: as base creature
AC: as base creature
Attacks: as base creature
Damage: as base creature
Face/Reach: as base creature
Special Attacks: as base creature
Special Qualities: Unstable Form (Su)
Saves: +2 racial bonus vs. Transmutation spells and effects
Abilities: as base creature
Skills: as base creature
Feats: as base creature
Climate/Terrain: as base creature
Organization: as base creature
Challenge Rating: as higher of base creatures + 1
Treasure: as base creature
Alignment: as base creature
Advancement: as base creature

Description: Shiftlings are the offspring of transformed creatures. 
While the natural form of some parental beings, such as dragons, shows strongly 
in offspring begotten even in a polymorphed state, for most creatures,
such offspring appear to be perfectly normal examples of their born 
type. The shiftling's dual heritage only reveals itself clearly when 
it is exposed to transmutation magic.

Unstable Form (Su) - A shiftling affected by any form of Transmutation magic
other than its own immediately shifts to its alternate form.  A saving throw 
is allowed per the spell (or effect's) description, however the only effect 
experienced by the shiftling is the transformation.  This effect is permanent 
until a subsequent Transmutation effect shifts the creature's form again.  
Unlike with Polymorph spells, the shiftling gains all abilities of its current 
form, including Supernatural abilities.  All ability scores are 
altered (not just the physical abilities) as well and the shiftling even tends 
to take on psychological traits of the new form.
However the creature type always remains Shapechanger (notably making them
immune to spells that specifically affect other types, such as Humanoid), and 
the specific details of the alternate form are consistent between transformations, 
resembling the original form in traits which are common to both, such as gender 
and relative age, height, and weight.  After the first transformation experience, 
a shiftling forever radiates a faint Transmutation aura.  True Sight reveals an 
image of the creature constantly and randomly shifting between its two native forms.

A shiftling PC has the option of choosing Transmuter as its favored class,
and, as noted, a shiftling's own Transmutation spells (or other magical effects) 
affect the shiftling normally.  Additionally, shiftling spellcasters automatically
gain Spell Focus (Transmutation) as a free feat, though they can never take
Transmutation as an opposition school for school specialization.

Shiftlings tend to feel an unexplained affinity for creatures of their alternate 
form before discovering their true nature (many live and die without ever 
discovering it), and sometimes, though not always, develop deep feelings of 
alienation from their birth species.  They commonly have very mercurial 
temperaments and a strong leaning towards Chaos, whatever the natural tendencies 
of their native forms.


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## Sejs (May 8, 2003)

> I generaly view any ability that is labled as EX, SP, or SU as something that gives the character or entity a game system advantage.




Vulnerable to Blessed Crossbow Bolts (Ex):  Any hit scored with a blessed crossbow bolt instantly slays a Rakshasa.


It's great, if a Rakshasa polymorphs for some reason the only ability they keep is their neato power to die instantly to anyone with a crossbow, bolt, and enough pocket change to give god a phonecall.


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## Hypersmurf (May 8, 2003)

Sunlight Vulnerability (Ex): Bodaks loathe sunlight, for its merest touch burns their impure flesh. Each round of exposure to the direct rays of the sun deals 1 point of damage to the creature.

Flashbacks (Ex): From time to time, a bodak sees something that reminds it of its almost-forgotten life. At the start of every encounter, there is a 5% chance that it notices something about an opponent (randomly determined, if more than one opponent is present) that causes it to recall its life. If this happens, the bodak takes no action for 1 round and thereafter suffers a -2 morale penalty to all attacks directed at that opponent.

-Hyp.


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## Kahuna Burger (May 8, 2003)

Centaur said:
			
		

> *
> Some people are more "Open Minded" than others.  In my group there are one or two people who could roleplay the situation and one or two that would have such a problem with that they would just never put themselves into the situation (and I won't force it on them).
> 
> However as a male DM, with a mostly male players, I quite often find myself roleplaying the other side of "Romantic" encounters in many a game.  While I would never even think about a guy in that way in real life, I have no problem protraying it in the game universe.  A certain amount of detatchment is always neccecary.
> *




You know, I honestly have no idea how this is supposed to relate or respond to the concerns of mine it came after. And without dragging the thread into potentially political waters, there is no way to find out. So I'll settle for the suggestion that you seriously missed the point, and not bother with a more detailed commentary.  

Kahuna Burger


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## Nareau (May 8, 2003)

My thinking with questions like these is "What's the most interesting thing that might happen?"  I agree with others who have stated that real-world science shouldn't enter the equation.

So if a gnome and an elf fell madly in love and wanted to conceive a child, I'd let polymorph help them out.

If a dragon polymorphed into a human female in order to get it on with her human boyfriend, I'd let her remain pregnant when she returned to her dragon form (and the child would eventually be laid in an egg, and hatch out).

If a pregnant rat were to be polymorphed into an ogre, we would see a scene of incredible horror.

If a pregnant woman were to be polymorphed into an asian man, this would happen.  

Spider


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## thundershot (May 8, 2003)

MY EYES!!! THEY BLEED!!


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## Centaur (May 8, 2003)

tarchon said:
			
		

> *I was kicking this around a while ago, a template, untested, un-UL approved:
> 
> Monster Title: Shiftling
> Type: shapechanger.......
> *




Could be a cool approach...

To all those who found the flaw in my: I generaly view any ability that is labled as EX, SP, or SU as something that gives the character or entity a *game system advantage*. comment,

Cudos,

 there are alwasys exceptions to every rule and I did say generaly.  

But now I think I'll go start another thread and see what dark road it leads us down.

PS. Kahuna Burger, email me with further comments on your last post.  I'm not sure how I missed your point and would like to know.


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## LGodamus (May 8, 2003)

ummm  I figured it would be obvious that when I talked about Procreate being  an (ex)  trait that everyone would catch on that I was joking


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## LGodamus (May 8, 2003)

ummm  I figured it would be obvious that when I talked about Procreate being  an (ex)  trait that everyone would catch on that I was joking


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## TheTurboTornado (Nov 3, 2015)

Ahem:

First, second and fourth: Yes. Polymorph other *would* give the target the internal reproductive organs needed for reproduction, or succesfully alter existing ones. As for question #4, the offspring would be whatever creature the mother was at childbirth. Polymorphing a female human into a female dragon would thus cause the offspring to be a dragon, possibly with human features. What I like to do in such situations is say: The personality of the baby is how it would have been if both parents would naturally be the same type. Thus, if a male elf inpregnates a female gnome through polymorph, the DM could decide that the elf would be very serious if born a gnome, and that thus the offspring would be serious as well.

Third and final part of second: Hard, but I'd rule similar to these two (each word is a separate link) El Goonish Shive comics: Transformed creatures cannot mate within a few days of the transformation, making most spells unfitted because of time limits. Besides, any pregnant creature is immune to any form of transformation that would affect the baby. Alter self would work, but polymorph? Nope. Also, as shown in the comic, any spell would become permanent, and the only way to become normal again is through Dispel Magic or a 2nd Polymorph spell after childbirth. Or in my opinion, to a week or two after childbirth, for the sake of feeding the child.

This transformation immunity seems a little OP at first thought, but as we see in the book of erotic fantasy, pregnancy is not all that desirable during adventuring!

TL;DR/Summary:
1:Yes, the spell would not be dispellable in any way and the baby would be born healthy and well, as the creature the mother was polymorphed into.
2: Yes, the spell would become permanent, and could only be reversed a few weeks after childbirth.
3: The second polymorph spell would have no effect.
4: See 1.


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## Iron Sky (Nov 3, 2015)

A similar issue came up when my group did our brief stint with Eclipse Phase: If you were once male, then upload yourself into an empty female body or vica versa, which are you? In recent modern times people tend to say "I identify as..." if they are in a similar situation, but if someone polymorphed you into the opposite gender, would that modify the gender you were attracted to due to different hormones and whatnot?


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## Scott DeWar (Nov 4, 2015)

I once had a twisted dm, first edition A D&D who had a BBEG polymorph my male fighter with exceptional strength into a female with the reduced strength because I was rolling too well in fights. one 0olf the players decided to rape my now female by casting hold person and then the subject of pregnancy came up. It was not good. I quit playing with that group.


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## Sadras (Nov 4, 2015)

Scott DeWar said:


> I once had a twisted dm, first edition A D&D who had a BBEG polymorph my male fighter with exceptional strength into a female with the reduced strength because I was rolling too well in fights. one 0olf the players decided to rape my now female by casting hold person and then the subject of pregnancy came up. It was not good. I quit playing with that group.




Hence the need for mechanical alignment and ability stripping


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## Scott DeWar (Nov 4, 2015)

The cleric was Lawful neutral and should have lost his abilities in my opinion. Nothing happened to the character or the player which is why I left.


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## Celebrim (Nov 6, 2015)

Scott DeWar said:


> I quit playing with that group.




Definitely the right choice.


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## TheTurboTornado (Nov 28, 2015)

The Sigil said:


> women are born with their full complement of eggs




That is entirely correct. However, what makes you say that a man polymorphed into a woman would not have eggs? Every human is born with their full complement of legs too, but polymorph can easily solve that. I recommend not using real-world science here anyway, as science and magic don't do together too well...


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## Scott DeWar (Nov 28, 2015)

TheTurboTornado said:


> That is entirely correct. However, what makes you say that a man polymorphed into a woman would not have eggs? Every human is born with their full complement of legs too, but polymorph can easily solve that. I recommend not using real-world science here anyway, as science and magic don't do together too well...




 . . . . unless it is an alchemist and a wizard working in conjunction . . . . .


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## TheTurboTornado (Nov 28, 2015)

Scott DeWar said:


> . . . . unless it is an alchemist and a wizard working in conjunction . . . . .




What do you mean by that?


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## Scott DeWar (Nov 28, 2015)

Science and wizardry working together, see?


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## TheTurboTornado (Nov 28, 2015)

Scott DeWar said:


> Science and wizardry working together, see?




Oh yeah. Conjunction. As in teamwork. Great, now I feel dumb. *casts Dopeslap Self* Ow.

Yes, that would be true, if you viey alchemy as science, which is up to the individual. *I*'m not really sure it is science.


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## Umbran (Nov 28, 2015)

Scott DeWar said:


> . . . . unless it is an alchemist and a wizard working in conjunction . . . . .




Alchemy is not science.  Alchemy is magic.  Chemistry is science.


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## TheTurboTornado (Nov 28, 2015)

Anyhoo, back to the subject at hand. I have seen some posts here about Polymorph adding pheromones to the 'experience'. I would rule it like this: When using Polymorph to assume a form one has never assumed before, the mind gets *BOMBARDED *with hormone *and* pheromone inputs your brain can simply not handle. If Polymorphing into a cow this would make grass smell irresistably delicious(even  more so than a normal cow), and (being a guy) Polymorphing into a woman for the 1st time would find men very, VERY attractive(also even more so than a normal woman) and triggering exaggeratedely(how do you even spell that?) woman-ey thoughts. After one gets used to the form (read: the mind gets used to the phero/hormones), this *doesn't* stop, but the subject gets better at suppressing the feelings.

This would also add more depth to shapeshifting. Druids and transmuters would keep a bunch of favourite forms, as they are more used to these. As a DM, however, pay attention to the level of 'thought bombardement'. When Polymorphing into a red dragon, there *is* a difference between "A sudden urge to burn down the village pops up in the back of your mind" and "You are temporarily CE(good thing my MM was within reach, else I wouldn't know exact alignment) and start burning the whole village down". Same for "You find (certain man, bonus points for him being a PC ) very attractive" and "You walk up to (aforementioned man), kiss him full on the lips, and whisper flirts into his ear"

Oh gosh, the squick! Good thing I homebrewed Brain Bleach...


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## Scott DeWar (Nov 28, 2015)

Umbran said:


> Alchemy is not science.  Alchemy is magic.  Chemistry is science.



 Oh ye of common knowledge!! We have been in the hiding for so very long and so very secret . . . . . .


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## Umbran (Nov 28, 2015)

TheTurboTornado said:


> When using Polymorph to assume a form one has never assumed before, the mind gets *BOMBARDED *with hormone *and* pheromone inputs your brain can simply not handle.




Why can't they handle it?  The brain is polymorphed too.  The natural abilities of the creature become yours - that should include pheromones (the power of which is commonly overstated anyway).


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## TheTurboTornado (Nov 28, 2015)

Umbran said:


> Why can't they handle it?  The brain is polymorphed too.  The natural abilities of the creature become yours - that should include pheromones (the power of which is commonly overstated anyway).




You are absolutely correct when you say:"the brain is polymorphed, which includes pheromones". However, the *mind* isn't. Your mind remains the same. Else, you would literally have the memory of a goldfish when polymorphed into a goldfish. This needs to be clarified first.

 As quoted from Wikipedia: Pheromones are chemicals capable of acting outside the body of the secreting individual to impact the behavior of the receiving individual. So what exactly happens? You new brain picks up these pheromones, and processes them. However, your mind, or conciousness, is not used to the impact they have on your behavior. Thus, you cannot properly keep them under control. But the more you get subjected to a certain type of pheromones, the more your mind gets used to it, until it reaches a point where it can fully handle the pheromones.

Still, good question. Thank you for your attentiveness.


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## Scott DeWar (Nov 28, 2015)

When changed via polymorph, isn't there a will save every day to keep your own mind?

It can, if I am right, then to change instantly.


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## TheTurboTornado (Nov 28, 2015)

Scott DeWar said:


> When changed via polymorph, isn't there a will save every day to keep your own mind?
> 
> It can, if I am right, then to change instantly.




Not that I know of, and I just looked it up.


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## Umbran (Nov 28, 2015)

TheTurboTornado said:


> However, your mind, or conciousness, is not used to the impact they have on your behavior.




I don't buy this.  It sounds like a GM attempt to screw a player for using powers the game hands them to use without strings attached.  

If we are allowing so much science as "pheromones", then the only impact they have on the mind is through the brain - if the brain has been altered to be appropriate, then the impact of them should be "normal" - if pheromones are part of the creature's normal mode of determining attractiveness, it would map to the character's normal mode of same.  If you polymorph into a giant insect, yes, maybe you'll find an insect of your species attractive, but not like, "OMG, they are the most attractive thing you have ever seen!  Bow-chicka-bow-wow!"  There is no call to say, "Your mind isn't used to this," any more than there is call to tell someone who polymorphed into a bird, "Your mind isn't used to wings, so you cannot fly."


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## Scott DeWar (Nov 28, 2015)

Strangely enough, I just checked Pathfinder and it says nothing about flight, but allows burrowing or swimming or other abilities as per the creature you become. I think that is an oversight.


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## TheTurboTornado (Nov 29, 2015)

Umbran said:


> I don't buy this.  It sounds like a GM attempt to screw a player for using powers the game hands them to use without strings attached.
> 
> If we are allowing so much science as "pheromones", then the only impact they have on the mind is through the brain - if the brain has been altered to be appropriate, then the impact of them should be "normal" - if pheromones are part of the creature's normal mode of determining attractiveness, it would map to the character's normal mode of same.  If you polymorph into a giant insect, yes, maybe you'll find an insect of your species attractive, but not like, "OMG, they are the most attractive thing you have ever seen!  Bow-chicka-bow-wow!"  There is no call to say, "Your mind isn't used to this," any more than there is call to tell someone who polymorphed into a bird, "Your mind isn't used to wings, so you cannot fly."




I'm not trying to *bleep* with my players, I'm just trying to enhance the polymorphing experience. If you don't buy it, then I'm okay with that.  But I think you are taking this a little too heavy. I never said that the reaction is "OMFG I WANT TO BOW CHICKA BOW WOW!!!!1!!!!11!" I said that you have a strange, hard to controllable urge. A male wizard who sees a girl reacts less heavily when said wizard, for the first time polymorphed into a woman, sees a guy with equal attraction levels (insert obligatory over 9000 joke here). Nothing to *bleep* with the players. Again, if you don't like it, that's fine by me.


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## CapnZapp (Nov 29, 2015)

TheTurboTornado said:


> I'm not trying to *bleep* with my players



But...how else will they get pregnant? 




(I'll see myself out)


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## TheTurboTornado (Nov 29, 2015)

CapnZapp said:


> But...how else will they get pregnant?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Because they bleep with NPC's, or possibly PC's. Not. With. Me.


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## TheTurboTornado (Dec 8, 2015)

Let us leave the topic of pheromones for what they are right now and move on. There is something that has been bugging me, namely how to tackle abortion. How would you guys do it? Through a new spell, an existing spell, a potion, or a magic item? Or have I not read the BoEF well enough?


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## Lanefan (Dec 8, 2015)

It's questions like this (among many others) which I was so hoping the d20-era Book of Erotic Fantasy would give useful coherent answers to.  Oh the disappointment...

I had this sort of thing happen in my current campaign, in fact: an originally-female (human) character had been permanently changed to male and kept finding ways to temporarily change back to female; which usually lasted as long as it took for her to get hit with a Dispel Magic.  However, during one of her temporarily-female phases she got pregnant; whereupon I quietly ruled to myself she would remain female no matter what until the pregnancy ended via any means be it her death, an abortion, coming to term, or whatever.  Well, despite adventuring in the field for 6 of her 9 months she made it to full term and on giving birth almost immediately reverted to male...no breastfeeding for you, kid...which she'd otherwise have done some months prior.

But polymorph on someone already pregnant, or becoming pregnant while polymorphed (the latter is highly unlikely in my game as polymorph spells have a much lower duration than forever), is a can o' worms I'd never considered before.

For the sake of simplicity and sanity I think if a polymorph hit someone already pregnant I'd rule the fetus would go with the mother - turn a pregnant human into a dwarf and you get a pregnant dwarf carrying a dwarf child - and if birth somehow happened during the polymorph duration the spell would continue to affect both as if simultaneously cast on each; thus here a dwarf baby would be born and when the mother turned back to a human the baby would change with her.  I'd also rule that a pregnant female could (usually*) only be polymorphed into a female, to preserve the pregnancy. (which means abortion, otherwise perfectly accepted in my world, cannot be achieved via a polymorph-return cycle)  If the polymorph is to something that does not normally become pregnant as such, e.g. a salmon, I'd probably say the fetus is lost but it would almost certainly be a moot point as chances are extremely high that such polymorph is being done in order to kill the mother anyway.

The more frequent example of this sort of thing is shapeshifting Nature Clerics (Druids); here I've already ruled the fetus changes in lockstep, and as birth cannot happen while shapeshifted and as the shapeshift is controlled by the Druid she can and will - and must - change to her normal form in order to give birth.  Shapeshifting cannot change one's gender, so that headache doesn't happen; and I only allow them to shapeshift into ordinary animals or birds - I can deal with a pregnant bird instead of an egg-laying one for this purpose.

* - except when polymorphing into an Orc; I have Orcs change gender on the fly somewhat randomly anyway as a product of their whacked-out biology, and in this case a male CAN be pregnant.

Another area where I have already thought over this sort of thing is if a pregnant character dies and is revived, what happens to the fetus?  What I do is give the mother a saving throw on revival if such is done by Raise Dead (use of this spell implies both that the corpse is pretty much whole and hasn't been dead all that long) which if successful means the fetus comes back with her; but if revival is via Resurrection (requiring only a bit of the corpse) or by Reincarnation (probably into a different species) the fetus is lost.

Lan-"gods can impregnate others while shapeshifted - ordinary mortals, not so much"-efan


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## TheTurboTornado (Dec 8, 2015)

Lanefan said:


> It's questions like this (among many others) which I was so hoping the d20-era Book of Erotic Fantasy would give useful coherent answers to.  Oh the disappointment...
> 
> I had this sort of thing happen in my current campaign, in fact: an originally-female (human) character had been permanently changed to male and kept finding ways to temporarily change back to female; which usually lasted as long as it took for her to get hit with a Dispel Magic.  However, during one of her temporarily-female phases she got pregnant; whereupon I quietly ruled to myself she would remain female no matter what until the pregnancy ended via any means be it her death, an abortion, coming to term, or whatever.  Well, despite adventuring in the field for 6 of her 9 months she made it to full term and on giving birth almost immediately reverted to male...no breastfeeding for you, kid...which she'd otherwise have done some months prior.
> 
> ...




Thank you for your answer. However, it wasn't much use to me. I fully blame this on myself though.  You see, I had previously posted a reply on the original question by Centaur in which I said, among others, that pregnancy results into Immutable Form, as golems have. I forgot to mention this (Look it up, it's a lot clearer. I would quote it, but I don't know how to do multiple quotes). This renders your answer pretty much useless.

Nevertheless, thanks for answering, it was very interesting, and I'm definetly using your idea on rezzing pregnant people.

As for my question, I'll re-ask it as following: If following my aforementioned views on Polymorph and Pregnancy, how would you tackle abortion? (if the answer is a spell of some sorts, please go into detail)


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## Lanefan (Dec 8, 2015)

TheTurboTornado said:


> As for my question, I'll re-ask it as following: If following my aforementioned views on Polymorph and Pregnancy, how would you tackle abortion? (if the answer is a spell of some sorts, please go into detail)



This would usually* be handled at a much simpler level: there's herbs that can do it, commonly available at any herbalist's shop or - for field adventurers - reasonably easily found in most climates by any Ranger or Nature Cleric.

* - however if the pregnancy is divinely caused (e.g. by Zeus messing around with the pretty mortals, as He's been known to do) these herbs are way outgunned, and the pregnancy probably cannot be stopped without some sort of divine help.

Lan-"for these purposes, polymorph is simply the wrong tool for the job"-efan


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## Lanefan (Dec 8, 2015)

TheTurboTornado said:


> You see, I had previously posted a reply on the original question by Centaur in which I said, among others, that pregnancy results into Immutable Form, as golems have.



Passing thought: how does this interact with shapeshifting Druids (Nature Clerics)?  Does a pregnant mid-to-high level Druid lose her innate ability to shapeshift? (if yes, this seems like an unfair penalty to female Druids)  Also, how does this interact with creatures that are naturally able to shapeshift e.g. Doppelgangers - are they also locked into their normal form while pregnant?  

Lan-"assuming, of course, Doppelgangers use the same reproductive system as the rest of us"-efan


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## Herobizkit (Dec 9, 2015)

It would be a viable way for the mother to give birth to a Changeling...


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## Leatherhead (Dec 9, 2015)

This thread is a great example of the reason I use the "Magic is not Physics, or by extension Biology" rule nowadays. I just ask myself "What would be the most pleasing outcome to the metaphysical being (or perhaps crazy mage, if they are doing independent work from scratch) in charge of this mess?" and carry on from there. Which means that sometimes nothing bad happens, and other times everything bad happens.



Lanefan said:


> * - however if the pregnancy is divinely caused (e.g. by Zeus messing around with the pretty mortals, as He's been known to do) these herbs are way outgunned, and the pregnancy probably cannot be stopped without some sort of divine help.




This is why Atropals happen. 

But, by far, the most shocking revelation of this thread is that El Goonish Shive still exists.


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## TheTurboTornado (Dec 19, 2015)

Lanefan said:


> Passing thought: how does this interact with shapeshifting Druids (Nature Clerics)?  Does a pregnant mid-to-high level Druid lose her innate ability to shapeshift? (if yes, this seems like an unfair penalty to female Druids)  Also, how does this interact with creatures that are naturally able to shapeshift e.g. Doppelgangers - are they also locked into their normal form while pregnant?
> 
> Lan-"assuming, of course, Doppelgangers use the same reproductive system as the rest of us"-efan




Well, umm... Good one. I'd say they still lose that ability. It strips them of one of their biggest powers, but I guess they'd just have to plan this out. 

As for the herbs: Good idea. I'd like to add that they cost 25 gp per dose, and they have to be used for 5 following days to have effect. Their effect would be to kill the foetus, shrink it to some degree and simply restart the menstruational cycle, so that the dead foetus simply gets "washed out." If the baby is too big, I had a very dark idea. Let's just say that in my campain, there will be a Plane of Aborted Babies...

And yes, EGS still lives, why? Did it go on hiatus at some point or something? I know EGS:NP did...


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## Big J Money (Jan 25, 2016)

Isida Kep'Tukari said:


> I'll pull something out of fantasy stories to answer this question.  I picked up a set of fairy tales, called something like "Enchanted Worlds," at a garage sale.  I think they were some kind of Time-Life series like you would buy off the TV, as they are lovely hardcover books with glossy pages and lots of pictures  There was one book for each theme - fairies, elves, giants, ghosts, wizards, enchantments, love, etc.
> 
> One of the stories, I believe in either the fairies or enchantment book, dealt with the question posed above.  The wife of a man was transformed into a dog to punish her husband.  However, she was pregnant at the time.  While her husband was eventually able to break the curse, the curser told him that the children's names weren't on the spell, and thus couldn't be broken.  Thus the man's potential heirs were born dogs, though his wife was returned to her natural form.  Now, they were very intelligent and loyal dogs, but still dogs.




I was able to stop reading this thread at this reply.  Very cool input.


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## CM (Jan 25, 2016)

[MENTION=6800647]TheTurboTornado[/MENTION]: Level 1 novice, level 5 necromancer (dual-class)


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## LuisCarlos17f (Jan 26, 2016)

I have got my own theory about how polymorph works.. and I don't like the idea all cells from a body changing its DNA temporally. I imagine really the polymorphy is like a illusion, the original body doesn't change at all, only to become invisible and "demicorporeal", while the mind is using a second "body" created by "living ectomplasm". 

Then a pregnant female with a polymorph effect shouldn't be too dangerous for the baby, because mommy has become half-ghost while she is remote-controlling a second body. (but maybe there is some risks for the baby, but if the mother is a innate shapeshifter).


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## TheTurboTornado (Feb 14, 2016)

Lanefan said:


> Passing thought: how does this interact with shapeshifting Druids (Nature Clerics)?  Does a pregnant mid-to-high level Druid lose her innate ability to shapeshift? (if yes, this seems like an unfair penalty to female Druids)  Also, how does this interact with creatures that are naturally able to shapeshift e.g. Doppelgangers - are they also locked into their normal form while pregnant?
> 
> Lan-"assuming, of course, Doppelgangers use the same reproductive system as the rest of us"-efan






TheTurboTornado said:


> Ahem:
> 
> First, second and fourth: Yes. Polymorph other *would* give the target the internal reproductive organs needed for reproduction, or succesfully alter existing ones. As for question #4, the offspring would be whatever creature the mother was at childbirth. Polymorphing a female human into a female dragon would thus cause the offspring to be a dragon, possibly with human features. What I like to do in such situations is say: The personality of the baby is how it would have been if both parents would naturally be the same type. Thus, if a male elf inpregnates a female gnome through polymorph, the DM could decide that the elf would be very serious if born a gnome, and that thus the offspring would be serious as well.
> 
> ...





Ok, I gave the matter a bit more thought, and this is my new idea:

Polymorph and Natural Shapeshifting could happen, but not with the freedom they used to have. 

Say, a male human turns into a female human and gets pregnant. The magic that is childbirth would make that the spell would become undispellable, as if the base form of the polymorphed person would change. This would mean that it the creature is polymorphed again, and that polymorph is reversed, the form they revert to is the pregnant female form. 

The same goes with polymorphing into a form that can not naturally become pregnant. If a pregnant woman, polymorphed or not, turns into, let's say, a T. Rex, the pregnancy would obviously not work, as T. Rex(...es? I guess?) are not mammals, and thus have no wombs. If they do-I haven't studied T. Rex autonomy, so I could be wrong- they are not fit for carrying a live child, only for laying eggs, but thats beside the matter. Same goes with transforming into a man, as they can also not become naturally pregnant. The baby would go to hyperspace/ a pocket dimension, whatever rows your boat, and as soon as the mother transforms into a form suited for pregnancy, the child gets placed into the womb again. This is known as pausing the pregnancy.

When a pregnant woman is polymorphed into a form that is able to become pregnant (i.e. female human to female dwarf), the pregnancy would continue, but 2 weeks before coming to term, the pregnancy cycle would still be paused, just like female ---> male transformations and the like.

Anything that I have said in my previous post that does not clash with what I said here (I.E. that polymorph allows pregnancy and stuff) still counts. That includes the time limit of the undispelleriness by the way.


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