# [GE] A Game Of Elves, ElfQuest d20, OOC



## Timothy (Jan 5, 2003)

I'm going to star an Elfquest PbP.

Elfquest is a fantasy comic. It is about elves *gasp!* but these elves are diffrent from the Tolkien or DND ones, and there are a lot of varieties.

This game is only for people who read elfquest (and if you read one, you're addicted) and would like to play PbP. I do not have the rules, but the basis would be D20, with add-ons.\

Everybody can contribute to the rules, and we're not going to make this too difficult.


So, elfquest lovers, Unite, and let's play!


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## Guilt Puppy (Jan 5, 2003)

I promised myself no more PbP games, but Elfquest? Can't pass that up!

Regarding rules, I could write up some races to begin with... Post them here?

(Edit: Some suggestions

Sending should be a feat, elf-exclusive (although the Sun Villagers are the only ones who wouldn't have it automatically.)

Classwise, the spell-casters would probably need to be changed... If you're okay with RP-heavy, magic could be loosened quite a bit (to fit the flavor of the book)... You'd have plant-shapers (Wis-based), healers/flesh-shapers (Wis, again), the Rayek-style telekinesis folk (Cha, I'd say)... That covers most of the magic (in the original books, at least), but I could stomach an Int-based arcane caster as well.

Weapon proficiency and the like might be better based on race... It'd be hard to balance the races while still staying true to the books, but here's some basic stat thoughts:

Humans: As PHB

Wolf-riders: -2 Str, +2 Con, Low-Light vision, bonuses on Balance and Ride?

Sun Villagers: -2 Str, +2 Wis (Sending requires a feat)

Blue Mountain elves: -2 Str/Con, +2 Dex, and (!) flight 20ft (Perfect)

Go-backs: +2 Con, -2 Cha, Cold Resistance 5

Mountain Trolls: +2 Str, -2 Int, -2 Cha, Darkvision, Speed 20ft, +2 vs. Magic?

Frost Trolls: +2 Str/Con, -2 Int/Wis/Cha, Darkvision, Cold Resistance 5, Speed 20ft, +2 vs. Magic?

Half-Trolls (ie Two-Edge): Darkvision, Speed 30ft, +1 vs. Magic?

Preservers: Okay, near impossible as a PC race, since they're practically indestructible...

Anything important that I'm missing?


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## Timothy (Jan 7, 2003)

Great Take on the rules Puppy, I like it allreay!
Although I would give the wolfriders +2 dex. The races don't have to be balanced in comparison to humans, but in comparison to each other. So we could raise all stats a bit, to represent the book better.
I'll post my take soon.

Is ther someone else that wants to play too?


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## Guilt Puppy (Jan 8, 2003)

Timothy said:
			
		

> *Great Take on the rules Puppy, I like it allreay!
> Although I would give the wolfriders +2 dex. The races don't have to be balanced in comparison to humans, but in comparison to each other. So we could raise all stats a bit, to represent the book better.
> I'll post my take soon.
> *




That they don't need to balance against humans is true, I hadn't fully considered that... Although it will make things a little tougher (in-party the group will be balanced, but CRs lifted from the MM and places won't be balanced against them)... I definitely think the -2 Str should be kept though (again, the whole d20 rules are thrown off if you stop using humans as the base 10's for all stats)... Even the Wolfriders were clearly not as naturally strong as humans in the books, so the baseline needs to be put off a little. Giving the Go-Backs a +0 Str actually seemed a little generous.

It was actually pretty tough to pick an appropriate bonus for the Wolf-Riders, as well as others... Maybe give all the elf races a +2 Dex and -2 Str as the baseline, then stick the "cultural" modifiers on top of that? (Birdriders should be upped to +4 in that case: They were definitely even more lithe than the average elf.)

Also an important question: Small or Medium-sized? I say Medium, but I could see cases argued either way.

Oh, and High Ones: -2 Str/Con, +2 Dex/Int/Wis/Cha... Definitely not a balanced race  (still under-represents them as seen in the books, but we can assume the rest was from Class levels)


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## Timothy (Jan 8, 2003)

Humans: As PHB

Wolf-riders: +2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Cha Low-Light vision, + 4 bonuses on Balance and Ride, animal companion: Wolf, aging effects, as per PHB Elf

Darts Wolfriders:-2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Wis, +2 bonus on ride, Animal companion: jackal.

Sun Villagers: -2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Wis, +2 Cha (Sending requires a feat), +2 bonusses on Diplomacy and Proffesion (agriculture)

Blue Mountain elves: -2 Str/Con, +4 Dex, +2 Int and flight 30ft (Perfect)

Go-backs: +2 Con, +2 Dex, -2 Cha, Cold Resistance 5, Proficient and +1 on Swords (long, bastard and great) (Timeline is set after Gormuhl Djun is defeated, and the palace is whole again)

Mountain Trolls: +2 Str, -2 Int, -2 Cha, Darkvision, Speed 20ft, +2 vs. Magic +2 craft: weapons

Frost Trolls: +2 Str/Con, -2 Int/Wis/Cha, Darkvision, Cold Resistance 5, Speed 20ft, +2 vs. Magic

Half-Trolls (ie Two-Edge): Unique, not available as player race.

Preservers: (Not for PC's)Okay, near impossible as a PC race, since they're practically indestructible...

High Ones: (not for PC's) -2Str/Con, +2 Int/Wis/cha, shapchange 2/day.



I sthere anyone else who wants tp play this?


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## Uriel (Jan 8, 2003)

Wolf-riders: +2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Cha
+2 to Con and Dex..and the neg is Cha? That is WAy Powerful.Up there with a +1ECL race (look at FR Aasimar).
I think that they should have the -2 Str...they are little (they ride Wolves, normal sized wolves).
Or, -2 Int. The are instinct (Wis) Based, not Learning oriented...it took Cutter how long before he figured out the Pommel of his Sword???? 
Search was not his best skill.
But, it is your game.


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## Timothy (Jan 8, 2003)

I was thinking of having all elfs be ECL +1.
And -2 can be done indeed.

Would you like to be part of this game uriel?


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## Uriel (Jan 8, 2003)

Err...I must be careful, Timothy, I am far closer to the perilous 'Garyh' Level than you...my Sanity is not assured in these dark days ahead (And I'm starting a second game (as DM) with 3 more in the very near future....)I think that's 15, although 2 are Dead, I fear. (Garyh has a dead one or two also...GARHY! Mythmere isn't coming back <sniff>. Let it go, man! 
I'll hold off on Elfquest, although (since I'm 33), I remember running to the COmic store and waiting for EQ...and Yep, I actually have them all from then Woohoo@ Oversized WaRP Graphics!
Now I want to 'Go-Back' and read them again. I was all about Strongbow and Two-Edge.


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## Timothy (Jan 9, 2003)

Aw, Come on Urile, you know you want to do this!

Join in, we need more players!!!


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## G.A. Donis (Jan 9, 2003)

My wife is a major Elfquest fanatic.  She doesn't hang out on the ENBoards, but would you mind if I mentioned this to her?  I imagine she would be very interested in playing this.


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## Timothy (Jan 9, 2003)

Sure thing G.A. The more fanatics the Merrier


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## Argent Silvermage (Jan 10, 2003)

I met Wendy at a convention in Philly when I was 14 (Thats 15 years ago) when she was just starting to promote Elf-Quest and I told her that Barbarian Elves would never sell. Guess I was wrong. If I may I would like to play. 
Most likely a Wolfrider stone shaper.
I would say that magical types should be done as an entirely new class. and probably Psionic as most of the Elves "magic" is actualy psionics not D&D style magic. 
A stone of plant shaper for instance should have a limited but potent number of "spells" set up sort of like a Psychic warrior or Psion.


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## Capellan (Jan 10, 2003)

An Elfquest PbP?  Count me in.  I vote for playing Wolf-riders or Go-backs, personally.  They were always the most fun 

I'll have to go re-read my Graphic Novel collection, not to mention my copy of the Chaosium RPG ...


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## Timothy (Jan 10, 2003)

Great we have enough players now!

I do not know the rules for psionics, but we could incorperate them into our oen rules.

I won't be able to post for a time, but if you have any rules suggestions, plz post them, I'd like to see them.

What we need:

Races
Classes
Combat
Magic
Equipment

and some more things, offcourse


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## Argent Silvermage (Jan 10, 2003)

Give me a few days. I'm working on the classes right now. 
Basic Ideas are
Barbarian (as PHB)
Mage (special class. one type of magic, stone, plant, flesh or TK.)
Fighter (as PHB)
or Bearst Rider (New class)

Any other suggestions. It's been many years since I read of the world of Two Moons.


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## redstrm (Jan 11, 2003)

This is G.A. Donis' wife...
Am I too late to join?


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## Guilt Puppy (Jan 11, 2003)

Argent said:
			
		

> *Give me a few days. I'm working on the classes right now.
> Basic Ideas are
> Barbarian (as PHB)
> Mage (special class. one type of magic, stone, plant, flesh or TK.)
> ...




Some sort of Ranger variant is probably appropriate... Not sure how to handle it, but I'd say the Wolf-Riders are more than just Barbarians or Fighters with Track...

I'd also leave Rogue in, as I'd say it fits just fine.

(I have no real preference regarding race, although Wolf-Riders do have the natural appeal, and the most source material surrounding them...)


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## Argent Silvermage (Jan 11, 2003)

Decided to rethink Stone and Plant shaping. 
I'm looking at making them Feats. 
a progressive scale of a few feats.
The spells would be powered by the characters hit points, and uses per day is level + con bonus if any. To use them does subdual damage. All spell like effects will use the characters Con score for the determining ability. IE: a plant shaper can shape living plant material up to 10 pounds per (level+ con bonus) per subdual hit point used. Thus you can knock yourself out from the effort.
Damaging effects will be as per a cure light wounds spell of the applicable character level. IE: a 3rd level plant shaper can make a humans club grow spikes into the humans hand doing the damage of a cause moderate wounds spell.

What do you all think?


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## Argent Silvermage (Jan 11, 2003)

Guilt Puppy said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Some sort of Ranger variant is probably appropriate... Not sure how to handle it, but I'd say the Wolf-Riders are more than just Barbarians or Fighters with Track...
> 
> ...



I agree Ranger is far more appropriate than Barbarian. Rogue is good. (Skywise!)
I may actualy make each race a seperate "class" and have different feats and skills show the difference between members of that race. Seeing as how there would not be a "multi class option" in Elf Quest any way.


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## Guilt Puppy (Jan 12, 2003)

Argent said:
			
		

> *
> I agree Ranger is far more appropriate than Barbarian. Rogue is good. (Skywise!)*




Heh, I did such a double-take when I first read that... My primary handle is Skywise, and since you were responding to me, I thought you were making some point of weird _emphasis_ toward me... Took me a while to sort that out   (Argent!)

[/quote]*
I may actualy make each race a seperate "class" and have different feats and skills show the difference between members of that race. Seeing as how there would not be a "multi class option" in Elf Quest any way. *[/QUOTE]

No multi-classing? Really, I see multi-classing being a lot heavier... I mean, Scouter is definitely not a fighter in the sense that Strongbow is, nor is Cutter, but they'd probably be modelled as having levels in Fighter nonetheless.

Making magic into a feat system might make them too easy to take, IMO... The multi-class system seems to work exceptionally well with Elfquest and magic, IMO... Try to complement one shaping class with another, and you start running into XP penalties... Even buffing up a magic class with a fighting class is difficult... _Unless_ it's your favored class (and favored class means a lot more in Elfquest: Wolf-Riders all do seem to have the same focused set of skills, as do Go-Backs, et cetera.)

Further, I'd keep the magic of spell-casting classes fairly weak, with some decent Skills to balance it out (usually a slow BAB, however)... Magic shouldn't start being really useful until around fourth level, to discourage excessive magical multi-classing... Could be difficult to balance, however.

Some favored class thoughts:

Wolf-Riders: Ranger (definitely need a variant... TWF, Favored Enemy, and spells don't really fit the wolfriders, but the whole "Ranger" concept is ideal).

Go-Backs: Fighter (easy  )

Sun Villagers: Something akin to Expert, as best as I can tell

Bird-Riders: Monk variant? Really tough to say...

Dart's Riders: Fighter?

Mountain Trolls: Fighter? Maybe Rogue?

Frost Trolls: Barbarian?

It's pretty tough to fit all this into a class system... Anyway, this could become a whole conversion project well before it could be a playable game. Maybe another thread should get started?


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## Capellan (Jan 12, 2003)

Guilt Puppy said:
			
		

> *Go-Backs: Fighter (easy  )
> *




Actually, I don't know that I agree.  Go-Backs are tough and hardy, alright, but they lack the sophisticated combat abilities of a Fighter (consider that they tend individually to be inferior warriors to the Wolf-riders).  I'd say they would be a variant Barbarian, instead.  That also helps give them some of the skills they need for survival in the cold lands.


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## Timothy (Jan 13, 2003)

redstrm said:
			
		

> *This is G.A. Donis' wife...
> Am I too late to join? *




You can still join, Everyone that helps with the rules is welcome.

I see this is gonna be pretty difficult.

I like the way magic deals sub-dual damage, making shaping based on Con. But other scores have to play a roll as well.
I think magic should be classes.

Classes themselves will need alot of changing.

I'm off to bed now, keep up the good work!


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## Timothy (Jan 15, 2003)

working on the classes, bump


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## Argent Silvermage (Jan 15, 2003)

Timothy said:
			
		

> *working on the classes, bump *



Just remember that this is a seperate universe from D&D proper and the classes don't have to balance with any other classes except those in the Elfquest universe. 
Thus a ranger from Greyhawk will not be the same as an Elfquest Ranger.


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## Timothy (Jan 15, 2003)

hmmm, you r right argent.

I'm probarly going for less classes then in PHB. Also, normal humans will follow all the rules of PHB and DMG

Classes (for now)

Fighter (with companion, will be the most common class)

Beast Rider (shares more traits with his wolf/bird than normal, only available for Wolfriders (dart's too) and Flyers)

Ranger (or Archer)

Magic user (has sub-classes)

Multclassing will have no penalty what so ever, it is very usual to take more then one class, in fact most do.

Ther will also be NPC classes, also for elves, but they are not the same powerlevel as PC's (though not forbidden for PC's)


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## Guilt Puppy (Jan 16, 2003)

Note that, if classes don't balance with Greyhawk, any CRs you carry over will be off by a little... Of course, CRs are not a perfect science, so this maybe won't matter too much.

If you want me to try to put together a magic system, give me the word. I'm all for the subdual damage approach (it's completely represented in the books)... I think class levels will mainly deal with how much you can shape per round (although the Rayek style casters will need a pretty different workup.)

BTW, those Rayek style casters will not be as tough as Rayek, so don't use him to set the standard. He was more of a "got lucky on his rolls" case than anything else.

(Oh, off-topic: Timothy, are you still playing in Game of Trust? Let me know if not, so I can open up the slot... If you are, post a little! I'm trying to keep it casual, but it's been about a week.)


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## Timothy (Jan 16, 2003)

to Guilt Puppy: Word!
And I'll post tonight, I've been out 4 days, and after that didn't come around to reading all (just a bit, but I need to read it all very good before I make a reply)

And I've been thinking abot rayek too, I think he is a flyer/Attack mage (no name yet, you get what I mean) So that means the following subclasses (but go on and change it if you want Guilt Puppy)

Healer, Shaper (only one material per class), Flyer, attacking mage, telepathic.

Hope that helps!


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## Guilt Puppy (Jan 17, 2003)

Timothy said:
			
		

> *And I've been thinking abot rayek too, I think he is a flyer/Attack mage (no name yet, you get what I mean) So that means the following subclasses (but go on and change it if you want Guilt Puppy)
> 
> Healer, Shaper (only one material per class), Flyer, attacking mage, telepathic.*




I'd disagree with making Flyer/"Attack mage" separate... While flight wasn't a strictly racial characteristic of the bird-riders (since Winnowill and others didn't fly), Rayek's flight was clearly of a different nature (his was a product of his telekinesis -- in other words, all part of one phase of development, not multi-classing)... I'd say give Flight as a beast-rider ability at a certain level for those who fly birds... Or maybe even PrC it (did anyone fly aside from the Chosen Eight, or whatever they were called?)

Also, "attack mage" doesn't aptly describe what Rayek did... Although he sure _could_ use his magic in a violent way, it was mainly rooted in his ability to levitate objects (including himself).

Here's how I'd rough out the magic system:

Everything has a subdual damage cost. The maximum subdual damage you can undergo in one action is equal to your class level plus your Wisdom modifier. Magic is cast as a standard action; however, in cases where it can be sustained for a full round's duration, the maximum expenditure increases to twice your class level, plus your Wisdom modifier.

If an ability has a subdual cost greater than your maximum per round, it can still be cast, though you must sustain the ritual for the appropriate length of time.

*Healers:*

(Save DC = 10 + 1/2 Class level + Int, as they require a knowledge of anatomy)

- Heal damage. (Cost: 2 per hit point healed).

- Convert damage to subdual damage. (Cost: 1 per hit point.)

- Inflict damage, touch attack, Fortitude half. (Cost: 2 per damage inflicted.)

- Heal ability score damage. (Cost: 10 per point of damage.)

- Add an enhancement bonus to a creature's physical ability score (effects disappear after one hour) (Cost: 10 XP and 10 subdual per +2 bonus, maximum +6; healer level 3+)

- Add an inherent bonus to a creature's physical ability score (permanent) (Cost: 5000 XP and 50 subdual per +1 bonus, maximum +5; healer level 11+)

- Add an enhancement bonus to a creature's physical ability score (effects disappear after one hour) (Cost: 10 XP and 10 subdual per +2 bonus, maximum +6; healer level 3+)

- Add an inherent bonus to a creature's physical ability score (permanent) (Cost: 5000 XP and 50 subdual per +1 bonus, maximum +5; healer level 11+)

et cetera... You can get into polymorph and stuff as well.

For the other shapers, you can flatten it out to volume of rock/wood shaped, with saving throws if that shaping effects living flesh (Fortitude if piercing, Reflex if you're trying to encase something). In the case of telekinesis, similar rules for how much matter can be moved, with special rules for energy bursts, cones, and the like.


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## Timothy (Jan 17, 2003)

I like the rules Guilt Puppy, although I would make the permanent ability score even harder to do (maybe level 15+ and 6000 XP cost) because in teh core ules this can only be done by a wish spell.


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## redstrm (Jan 17, 2003)

I was thinking that there should be regional feats like there is in the Forgotten Realms book.  Some of the magic feats that you mentioned perhaps.

What about prestige classes?  You could use PH for base classes (with a few modifications) and make Flyers and such be prestige classes.  You had to earn the right to fly after all...


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## Timothy (Jan 17, 2003)

Regional feats are quite good indeed, but they will be based on subrace.

And the classes will be based on PHB, but with some twists.


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## Guilt Puppy (Jan 17, 2003)

Timothy said:
			
		

> *I like the rules Guilt Puppy, although I would make the permanent ability score even harder to do (maybe level 15+ and 6000 XP cost) because in teh core ules this can only be done by a wish spell. *




If you want, I wouldn't mind outlining the whole magic system like that... I'd go ahead and do it myself, but I don't want to conflict with anything you're working on.

(Edit And agreed on the inherent bonus... I was just trying to rough things out off the top of my head.


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## Timothy (Jan 17, 2003)

I'm not sure about the magic classes, so you could do everything, because this sounds VERY good. I'll post the classes tomorrow.


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## Guilt Puppy (Jan 18, 2003)

ElfQuest Magic 

A lot of the costs need to be fiddled with, but the basic idea comes across... Was hard balancing the abilities (they're way weaker than anything a spell-caster of equivalent level could do, usually, except they can be done a lot more often) but I think with some play-testing things can be worked out. Should definitely work as a system in an rp-heavy game.

Also implicit to this is using the abilities in non-specified ways... Say you wanted to have a stone-shaper ride a crest of stone over several large jutting rocks in a chasm... There's nothing there that specifically says they can do that (they can shape cubic feet of stone, but what if they want to do it quickly with less precision, sucking the stone back up behind, et cetera...) One option would be to use calculus, another would be to say "that sounds somewhere between Stone Waves and Encase Creature in terms of difficult, so I'll say it requires level 11+, with a cost of 15 per 5 feet moved." The whole system is focused on being as free-form as possible (by combining multiple abilities in one casting, et cetera)

Further, the logic of the system focuses on Wisdom first, Charisma second, and Intelligence last, all though all three effect casters... A run-down:

Wisdom: Effects how much you can cast in a round. Also improves certain magic effects directly.

Charisma: Used for save DCs.

Intelligence: Prereq for meta-magic style feats.

I think this naturally covers all the styles of spell-casting: The wisdom-based caster who uses spells the way they come to them, the charismatic caster whose spell-power is a threatening force, and the meticulous, studied caster who learns to shape their abilities in new ways.

The system naturally favors Wisdom over the other stats, as it seems most important in Elven spell-casting in general. Non-elven spell-casting is another issue, and one not covered here at all(although the PHB Wizard may be appropriate, if you nerf all setting-inappropriate spells.)

Also note that these are _highly_ specialized classes... More highly specialized than anything in the PHB. Because of this, a single-classed magic-user is going to seem generally weaker in an adventure than the non-magic classes; this is based on the assumption that most elven spell-casters are multi-classed. Unlike the PHB casters, this magic is built to work _well_ with multi-classing: Its usage does scale independent of the spell-casting class (more hit points results in more spells per day, essentially), without negating the usefulness of advancing in that class (access to more powerful abilities.)

I'd consider an option for the Elven races (excluding Go-Backs) where the highest level spell-casting class is not taken into account for multi-class XP penalties. This allows for Healer/Fighters, Plantshaper/Rangers, et cetera, all within one tribe. This simulates (somewhat) the "in-born talent" nature of elven spell-casting, while still allowing the D&D-style flexibility that lets a character make a Healer/Plantshaper/Telekin if they _really_ want to.

Oh, and "Telekin" was the best name I could come up with (Telekineticist was too damn long)... "Sender" is also somewhat inaccurate to the Suntop style of magic, but again, best I could come up with. Feel free to change those (and add the flavor text which is sorely lacking from the abilities.)


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## Timothy (Jan 18, 2003)

Guilt Puppy, I have just one thing to say:

WOW!

This is a very good magic system that IMHO represents the world of elfquest and keeps game balnce. I hope I will be able to post the other classes by tomorrow, because I'm off to bed, although I doubt they will be as good as this.


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## Timothy (Jan 19, 2003)

I showed my drafts for classes to some friends today, and it was generally disliked, I get the advice to leave the classes like they are as much as posible. so that's what I will do. (The classes we're disliked because I added to much special abilities that weren't needed).


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## Timothy (Jan 19, 2003)

Okay, Here are the classes (in a doc format attached to this post) They are still subject for change, as I'm not sure about the Beast-rider class. Maybe it is too powerful, but I really like it. Let me know what you think, I can always bring down the HD to D10, but plz tell me what you think.


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## Argent Silvermage (Jan 20, 2003)

I am Impressed to the point of rapture. That magic system is a thing of Beauty.


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## Guilt Puppy (Jan 20, 2003)

Argent/Timothy: Thanks  I still worry that the magic system may be a little boring at lower levels... But at least the lower-level abilities tend to have the broadest range of application, so creative players should be okay.

The other new classes look great... I'd suggesting leaving in the PHB Barbarian as an option, but I really like the flavor of the new version.

Beast-rider is also great... I might swap Treat as Equal around to allow the _rider_ to take the form of the mount (or maybe both!), although I don't know how specifically either is referenced in the books (in either case, it's an ability that will rarely occur, so...)

I think I might go for an Archer/Wolf-Rider once we start going... In past experience, you always end up with a disproportionate number of spell-casters in EQ RPGs (compared to the books), so I try to avoid them... That, and if the magic system turns out to be over-powered, I don't want to get accused of making it that way on purpose


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## Timothy (Jan 20, 2003)

The beastrider class is referenced in some hidden years books about twospear, you have an elf that resembles a wolf much more than the other elfs, his name was Greywolf I think, although I don't know for sure. He is in the story about how two-spear got his second spear.

Also, I mostly only know the Dutch words for ElfQuest, in my experience all the names were directly translated from english ito dutch, so I;ll do that vive versa. If a name or an ability has a different name in english plz say so. (For example: Recogniztion).

I do not see elfs becoming barabarians, because they do not fly into an uncontrollable rage. Hmmm, waita minute, I can see the Go-Backs do that. Okay, I'll allow Barbarian form  the PHB, but leave the other versions intact. I need a name for the barbarian with the heightened wareness.


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## Capellan (Jan 20, 2003)

Possible name for the heightened awareness Barbarian: Scout or Wild Scout.

I have a quick question about the magic classes: how will a Wolfrider's Sending ability be modelled?  Do they all have one level in Sender, or is it some kind of Feat or Racial Talent?

I have some comments and suggestions about the Beastrider and Archer classes, but they'll be more detailed, so I'll write themup separately before posting.


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## Timothy (Jan 20, 2003)

Guilt P, could you handle all the Questions involving your magic system? You'll be totally in charge for that.

Capellan: I'm looking forward too your suggestions.

Could everyone who is still interested in playing and whose still readin all this post?


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## Capellan (Jan 20, 2003)

*Beastrider*
I'd suggest changing the Animal Bond bonus to occur at every even numbered level only, dropping the bonus at 1st.  This leads to a 20th level Beastrider getting a +10 bonus.  That appeals to my sense of neatness 

A much more significant change that I would suggest is to change the Mounted Feat progression from its current run (1st, 5th, 9th, 13th and 17th) as this leads to the strange situation that a Fighter could basically have all five Mounted Feats by 4th level (if they took nothing else), while a Beastrider must wait until 17th.  Beastriders will, I think, want the Mounted Feats much earlier than that.  I suggest giving the feats at 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th and 9th.

It's not specified in the write-up, but I think you should make it clear that if a Beastrider's mount dies, then it takes a year for their next mount to develop any Advancement abilities the last mount may have had.  Basically the same thing as a Paladin, to emphasis the importance of the link between mount and rider.

Everything else seemed fine, except that I am not sure why Concentration is a class skill, and I think Listen should probably be on the list of class skills.


*Archer*
I'm not a fan of the "two BABs" idea, so I'd suggest changing the class to be "BAB as Rogue", with a special class ability:

Ranged Combatant: the Archer gains +1 to hit with all ranged attacks.  This bonus stacks with all other bonuses.  It increases to +2 at 5th, +3 at 9th, +4 at 13th and +5 at 17th levels.

This means the Archer has only one BAB, but comes close to mimicking the higher BAB when using ranged weapons.  The difference is that they don't get extra iterative attacks from this ability, which they do from an increase in BAB.

I'd also suggest changing "Archery" to simply Free Feats, full strength, without the light armour restriction, as the restriction is pretty meaningless for a high Dex character, anyway.  I'd provide the feats at 2nd, 5th, 8th, 11th, 14th, 17th and 20th levels.  The list of feats would be the same as you have given, with Weapo Specialisation (ranged weapons only) also added to the list, and the "any bow" feats expanded to "any ranged weapon".

I'd drop the Bow Specialisation currently given at 5th level, as well as the Deadly Aim (2nd) and Defensive Firing (8th).

Point Blank Shot would remain as a free feat at 1st level.

Finally, I'd change the Special Abilities to be given at 7th, 13th and 19th levels and change the list as follows:

Add Deadly Aim and Defensive Firing as special abilities.  Remove the Concentration Checks involved in both skills.  Limit the Deadly Aim to the same as the "Ranged Combatant" bonus above, with each +1 taking a full round action to gain.  Change the "no target movement" to "no target movement, or target is unaware of the archer's presence".

Make Defensive Firing allow the Archer to use missiles of any kind without an AoO, no Concentration check required.  It's not that big a deal.

Remove Armoured Archer - it is no longer required under this model.

Remove Bow Mastery - it's a bit too twinky 

Critical Shot - increase the pre-req to "has improved critical with the weapon"

Power Shot - I'd change the name and explain the bonus as targetting particularly vital parts of the enemy, rather than the "power" of the shot, but the mechanics are fine.

Quickstring - change the ability so that, instead of the current concept, it changes the Archer's BAB with Ranged Weapons to mimic the Unarmed BAB of a Monk.  ie iterative attacks occur every -3, not every -5.  Allow other BABs to stack with this ability (since it won't be available until 7th, anyway)

Sniper Attack - make this 1d6 per time it is taken, rather than 2d6 the first time, then 1d6 after that.  2d6 in one hit is too much.

Storm of Arrows - this is too powerful, IMO, and should be removed.

Trick Shot - this ability overlaps the Sharp-shooting feat, and woulfd be problematic for adjudication.  I'd say it would be ebst to remove it, and just use the Sharp-shooting feat.

For the class skills list, I'd remove Concentration and add in MOve Silently and Handle Animal.  This fits better with the ranger/scout kind of idea.


*Awareness Barbarian*
I don't get the -2 penalty to damage?  What is the reason for this?  If the intent is just to balance the bonuses given by the ability, I'd suggest just dropping the bonus to hit, and this penalty, and leaving it at +4 Dex and +1 morale bonus on all checks.  The improved version would be +6 Dex and +2 to checks.

Also, thinking about it, Scout is a poor choice of name for this class: it suggests sneaking and spotting skills that don't really fit into the class's make-up.  Instead, how about "Dervish"?


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## redstrm (Jan 20, 2003)

Will sending be a feat?
Not all elves can do it.  It could be one of the race/regional feats for wolfriders.
I see that there is a sending class of magic, but many elves simply send and nothing else.  I don't think that you should have to spend a level for this ability.


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## Capellan (Jan 20, 2003)

redstrm said:
			
		

> *Will sending be a feat?
> Not all elves can do it.  It could be one of the race/regional feats for wolfriders.
> I see that there is a sending class of magic, but many elves simply send and nothing else.  I don't think that you should have to spend a level for this ability. *




I agree.  Reading the Sender class, I notice that there doesn't seem to be a "standard" sending ability - all the abilities are more than that - so it may be that GP's intent was for the "Elven Talent" ability to encompass standard sending?


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## Timothy (Jan 20, 2003)

Hmm, about those mounted feats, I first had it the way you said it would. But I changed it because the lower levels would have too much power in comparison too higher levels. I could change it back, or chage the ability into an extra feat, that CAN be used to get mounted feats. If you want the feats sooner, you can take them as normal feats.

I agree with the animal bond. And w\iting a year and a day before a new band is formed.

About the Archer: 
I agree with the BAB/AAB
I think the archery feats should stay as the are
I'd drop the Bow Specialisation currently given at 5th level, as well as the Deadly Aim (2nd) and Defensive Firing (8th). but I'll let the special abilities stay as they are, with these abilities added as choices.



> Remove Armoured Archer - it is no longer required under this model.
> -- Will stay
> 
> Remove Bow Mastery - it's a bit too twinky
> ...




Okay, I'm off to scholl only one hour, will respond some more this afternoon.


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## Argent Silvermage (Jan 20, 2003)

So we have classes.
Lets decide on point buy and level.


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## Timothy (Jan 20, 2003)

As for the awareness barbarian
I'll change the awareness ability as you suggested.

I do not know the word dervish, what does it mean?

And argent: We'll need to tackle equipmnet before we can begin.
I think the combat system doen't need adjusting.

The greatest problem I have with equipment is the lack of magic items in the books, I think I'll just rule magic items out. But then we have a balance issue to deal with.


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## redstrm (Jan 20, 2003)

I finally got time to find my original Chaosium book.  Who else has this?  It has many things that could be converted or expanded upon as a base...

The magic powers it lists are...

Telekinetic:
Anti-healing
Fire-Starting
Flesh-Shaping
Healing
Levitation
Plant-Shaping
Rock-Shaping
Shape-Change

Telepathic:
Animal Bonding
Astral Projection
Finding(Dowsing)
Hypnosis
Magic-Feeling
Mind-Snare
Sending
Shielding

I think that most are covered in Guilt Puppy's classes already.


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## redstrm (Jan 20, 2003)

What about the Sea Elves?  They have the ability to shape-change so that they have legs so they would be feisable in a campaign.


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## Timothy (Jan 20, 2003)

I haven't read anything about sea elves yet, I guess we are that far into the series overhere.
I will start the campaign 10 or 20 years after the fall of the citadel.


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## redstrm (Jan 20, 2003)

I played around with a character sheet...

All that I did so far was to change the logo and some of the knowlege skills on the first page.  The second page with the magic will take the most work but until the system is ironed out I thought that it would be a waste of time.

Thoughts?  Changes?
I have it in pdf format but it won't let me upload it...


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## redstrm (Jan 20, 2003)

The sea elves (Wave Dancers) were a short series after the main series was finished.  They are around after the palace but not well known.


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## redstrm (Jan 20, 2003)

I still think that most specialized classes should be Prestige Classes.
If you make Beast Rider a Prestige class instead of a regular class it will help offset the power some.
Make some of the mounted feats prerequisits to the class.  For instance the Halfling Outrider (Sword & Fist) needs to have Mounted Combat and Mounted Archery before they can take the class.  Windrider (Masters of the Wild) is another good class to look at for ideas.
The same with the Archer Class (Deepwoods Sniper, Arcane Archer, and Order of the Bow) just take the best features of these classes and combine them...


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## Timothy (Jan 20, 2003)

Hey, nice sheet!

This reminds me: Skills: they're going to need some change, but since I want to begin, I'll do that on a case by case basis.

Do you REALLY mind if I'll rule out the sea elves?


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## Timothy (Jan 20, 2003)

redstrm said:
			
		

> *I still think that most specialized classes should be Prestige Classes.
> If you make Beast Rider a Prestige class instead of a regular class it will help offset the power some.
> Make some of the mounted feats prerequisits to the class.  For instance the Halfling Outrider (Sword & Fist) needs to have Mounted Combat and Mounted Archery before they can take the class.  Windrider (Masters of the Wild) is another good class to look at for ideas.
> The same with the Archer Class (Deepwoods Sniper, Arcane Archer, and Order of the Bow) just take the best features of these classes and combine them... *




Since I'm getting rid of multiclassing I would like all classes to be available at first level. So PrC doesn't fit into that concept.


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## redstrm (Jan 20, 2003)

No prob on the Sea Elves. Maybe later...

Guess I missed the part about no multi-classes.


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## redstrm (Jan 20, 2003)

Why did you decide to eleminate multi-classing?  That seems to be a big part of the d20system.


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## Capellan (Jan 20, 2003)

redstrm said:
			
		

> *Why did you decide to eleminate multi-classing?  That seems to be a big part of the d20system. *




I think he meant he's eliminating the penalties for multi-classing ... so we will have free range to MC as much as we like.  The trade-off is no PrCs.

Normally, I'd agree that a Beastrider was more a PrC than anything else, but Elfquest is a different setting to most ... I think such classes are "core" in the World of the Two Moons.


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## Timothy (Jan 20, 2003)

yep, that's what I ment. This will mae it easier to be a beastrider/archer/mage for example


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## redstrm (Jan 20, 2003)

I was looking at the Beast Rider class:

I agree with Capellen that the Animal Bond should come every even level.

Mount advancement as per Paladin is excellent.

I'm not to sure about Treat as Equal and Recognition.  I don't remember it working that way (I thought that Timmorn was just prolific), but I would have to go back and read the books to be sure...

Here are some of my suggestions:

Mounted Combat and Empathic Link (as per Paladin) should be free feats at first level.
This way you are free to choose any of the mounted feats for your character feat.

AC bonus while riding (similar to Halfling Outrider in Sword and Fist) advancing at the same rate as the mount advancement.

Mount Friendship (possibly at 7th level)( as per Windrider in Masters of the Wild): gain a +4 competance bonus on all diplomacy and handle animal checks with animal of the same type as riders mount.
[Cutter befriending the wild wolf after Nightrunner died]

Leap from Saddle (possibly at 10th level)(as per Halfling Outrider)

All of this makes for a very powerful class but I'm not sure how to curtail it...  A level adjustment would do it, but that makes it impossible to become one as a starting character...  Just not sure.


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## Guilt Puppy (Jan 21, 2003)

Regarding Sending...

Basic sending (like all the Wolf-riders can do), was assumed to be a standard ability for most elves (Sun Villagers excepted; they would have to take a feat.) I don't consider it part of the magic system exactly, because I don't think it should incur a subdual penalty (it seems as natural as speaking to those who can do it.)

In practice, there are two kinds of sends: Open sends and closed sends. Open sends are heard by anyone within a certain distance, closed sends are heard only by specified targets (although Senders, at higher levels, have the ability to break this up.)

Off the top of my head, I'd say distance for normal sending would be 100 feet, +/- 20 feet per point of charisma modifier. (For instance, a Cha 6 Wolf-Rider would have a send range of 60 feet, while a Cha 20 character would be able to send out to 200 feet.)

The "Sender" class was for elves with more focused sending-related abilities than normal (ie Suntop)... The name is a source of some confusion, so maybe it should be changed (telepath?). Assume that the Sending feat comes free at first level for the appropriate elves (considering I don't own the books, I can't check up on which, but I think it's the Wolf-Riders and Go-Backs... Could the average bird-rider send?)

BTW, that character sheet looks awesome.


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## Timothy (Jan 23, 2003)

I'll change the document (The beastrider, archer and Barbarian class (what doe sDervish mean?) Tonight, according to the feedback I've gotten.

About the equipment:

There is no problem if the campaign plays a couple of hundred years after the fall of the citadell, this will explain the new elves (the PC's) too.
With one nation of humans (Shuna will became queen of some of the lands that Gromuhl Dunn used to have, and her descendants still rule) being friendly towards humans. And humans that have discovered magic (as you used in the DnD system) The elves can find magic items that we're created by humans. Also, more technology will be available to the elves (bought from the humans or trollls) so all kinds of armor and new weapons will be available too.

If everybody agrees on these rules for equipment, and leaving the rules for skills as they are, we can start.

What level do you guys want?


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## Argent Silvermage (Jan 23, 2003)

I think we should start at around 5th level. That way we would all have a chance of surviving away from our tribes. I'm assuming that would be the reason we have been drawn together is we are seperated from our original tribes.


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## Uriel (Jan 24, 2003)

OK, so who is playing in this one?


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## Guilt Puppy (Jan 24, 2003)

I'm in for sure.

No idea what race/class I'll start out as... If we're tying it in that closely to the series, should the bloodlines be the same as well? (A few hundred years could be as little as a generation, and I'll admit that the idea appeals to the fanboy in me  )


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## Argent Silvermage (Jan 24, 2003)

I'm thinking about a Wolfrider/Stone shaper named Heartstone.


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## Timothy (Jan 24, 2003)

Guilt Puppy said:
			
		

> *I'm in for sure.
> 
> No idea what race/class I'll start out as... If we're tying it in that closely to the series, should the bloodlines be the same as well? (A few hundred years could be as little as a generation, and I'll admit that the idea appeals to the fanboy in me  ) *




Yep you're all the children off the elves that currently live in the series. You can make up your own parents as well, as long as there is room for them in the current story (All wolfriders are known, so not them, but some Sun-villagers, Go-backs etc. are not fleshed out, so you can make them up.)

And Argent, wolfriders do not have stoneshapers, but I could allow it if one of your players is a relative of Ahdri form the sun village. But you can be fully wolf-blodded for gaming purposes.

That's another quistion ,if you come from a mixed marriage, pick one base race, with some extra abilities if you really want. 
I would like a bio from all of you, although it hasn't got to be long.

Who is still in?


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## Argent Silvermage (Jan 24, 2003)

Timothy said:
			
		

> *
> 
> And Argent, wolfriders do not have stoneshapers, but I could allow it if one of your players is a relative of Ahdri form the sun village. But you can be fully wolf-blodded for gaming purposes.
> 
> *




Actualy the Sunvillager Stone shaper was my second choice. I'll do that instead. I prefer not to be linked to any of the actual elves in the series.. gives more room for movement.
name :Ozirus


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## redstrm (Jan 24, 2003)

I'm still in...  I will have to think about what to play.


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## Timothy (Jan 27, 2003)

okay, let's begin creating guys!

what do you want to play?


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## Guilt Puppy (Jan 27, 2003)

Do you still object to Wolf-Rider Barbarians? (If so, I'll go with either dervish or fighter... in either case, heavily multi-classed with beast-rider.)


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## Timothy (Jan 27, 2003)

I still do not see them do it, but if you really wan too, go right ahead, it IS possible.


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## Timothy (Jan 27, 2003)

whoops, forgot to uploead the updated classes.


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## Capellan (Jan 28, 2003)

I'm still in (sorry for the slow reply - spent 5 days out of town at a gaming convention  ).

I'll take a look at the updated docs and consider my options, but I am leaning toward a Rogue/Archer, possibly with a smifgen of Healer.  I'll likely play a Go-Back: probably one who is ashamed of his magical gift, which is why he has struck out on his own.


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## Timothy (Jan 28, 2003)

Okay, let's get this show on the road!!!!

Level: 5 (ECL being 6)
Stats: 32 Point buy

Books: Core and splat, and all rules given in this thread. all rules in this thread overrule official rules.


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## Guilt Puppy (Jan 30, 2003)

BTW, what was the latest on the races? Most recent post I can find is pretty old, and not definitive. -2 Str/Cha +2 Dex/Con?


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## Timothy (Jan 30, 2003)

races as i posted (repost)

Humans: As PHB

Wolf-riders: +2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Cha Low-Light vision, + 4 bonuses on Balance and Ride, animal companion: Wolf, aging effects, as per PHB Elf

Darts Wolfriders:-2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Wis, +2 bonus on ride, Animal companion: jackal.

Sun Villagers: -2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Wis, +2 Cha (Sending requires a feat), +2 bonusses on Diplomacy and Proffesion (agriculture)

Blue Mountain elves: -2 Str/Con, +4 Dex, +2 Int and flight 30ft (Perfect)

Go-backs: +2 Con, +2 Dex, -2 Cha, Cold Resistance 5, Proficient and +1 on Swords (long, bastard and great) (Timeline is set after Gormuhl Djun is defeated, and the palace is whole again)

Mountain Trolls: +2 Str, -2 Int, -2 Cha, Darkvision, Speed 20ft, +2 vs. Magic +2 craft: weapons

Frost Trolls: +2 Str/Con, -2 Int/Wis/Cha, Darkvision, Cold Resistance 5, Speed 20ft, +2 vs. Magic

Half-Trolls (ie Two-Edge): Unique, not available as player race.

Preservers: (Not for PC's)Okay, near impossible as a PC race, since they're practically indestructible...

High Ones: (not for PC's) -2Str/Con, +2 Int/Wis/cha, shapchange 2/day.

Money: as per DMG lvl 5


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## Guilt Puppy (Jan 31, 2003)

Timothy said:
			
		

> *Blue Mountain elves: -2 Str/Con, +4 Dex, +2 Int and flight 30ft (Perfect)
> *




Not to start changing rules too late into things, but IMO the flight shouldn't be a racial ability... Did anyone other than the Chosen Eight actually fly? It seems to me like it should be modelled more like a PrC class ability in their case, not a racial one.

And I still think Wolf-riders should have a -2 Str (a few characters were strong, but I'd say on average the tribe was weaker than humans -- or Go-Backs, for another example)... But I won't complain too hard since I'm _playing_ a Wolf-rider.


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## Timothy (Jan 31, 2003)

It could be changed, bti rather not this late. if anybody else supports theadvice of guilt puppy, we'll take that way.

How are the chars going?


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## Guilt Puppy (Feb 2, 2003)

```
Hail, CG Wolf-rider Beast-rider2 PHBBarbarian3

Str 16 +3 
Dex 16 +3 (+2 racial)
Con 16 +3 (+2 racial)
Int 10 +0
Wis 12 +1
Cha 10 +0 (-2 racial)

HD: 5d12+15 (37 hp)
Init: +3
Speed: 40ft
AC: 16 (+3 Studded Leather, +3 Dex)
Saves: F +7  R +6  W +2

Attack: MW Battleaxe, +10  melee, 1d8+3 x3
(Rage): MW Battleaxe, +12  melee, 1d8+5 x3

Skills: (32 pts)
Animal Empathy  +4   4
Handle Animal   +8   8
Jump            +6   4 
Ride            +11* 8
Wilderness Lore +9   8
(*+2 on Quicksnap)

Feats: Alertness, WeapFoc(BAxe), [Mounted Combat]

Special: Rage 1/Day (7 rounds), Fast Movement, Uncanny Dodge(Dex), Animal Bond +1

Items:
MW Battleaxe
MW Studded Leather

---

Quicksnap, Wolf

Str 13 +1 
Dex 15 +2
Con 15 +2
Int  2 -4
Wis 12 +1
Cha  6 -2

HD: 2d8+4 (13 hp)
Init: +2
Speed: 50ft
AC: 14 (+2 Dex, +2 Natural)
Saves: F +5  R +5  W +1

Attack: Bite, +3  melee, 1d6+1 x2

Skills: (32 pts)
Hide            +3
Listen          +6
Move Silently   +4
Spot            +4
Wilderness Lore +1*
(*+4 when tracking by scent)

Feats: Weapon Finesse (Bite)
Special: Trip, Scent
```

Still need to work on items (are magic items available?)... Also, can we customize the wolves at all (perhaps just a point-buy 18 or so?)

Further, how are you handling mount advancement? Strictly as with Paladin mounts (requiring Beast-rider levels), or do they gain experience? I have a feeling that most will be severely at risk in combat as levels increase (esp. considering that beast-rider is primarily intended as a multiclass supplement)


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## Timothy (Feb 2, 2003)

Ah, the first char!

Magic items as per DMG, the game is set soemt ime after the fall of the citadel, and the elves maintain friendly relations with one kingdom of men (ruled by the children of shuna) where they can get magic items from. Humans have evolved to a status similiar as the PHB. 

I'm sorry I haven't repleid, but my connection was down, I'm now on my dial-up. Hope it will be back this afternoon.


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## Sniktch (Feb 4, 2003)

Argh!  Can't believe I missed this thread before now, as I used to be a huge Elfquest fanatic (haven't read anything in ten years though).  I'll definitely keep my eye on it, though - Timothy, count me as an alternate against game attrition if you would 

I'm going to print out all the custom rules you've decided on, and I'll give you my take on them once I've finished reading...


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## Timothy (Feb 5, 2003)

Hey, Sniktch, you can play too, if you want!


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## Timothy (Feb 5, 2003)

sow, how's everyone char going?

(plz, say good, so that I don't have to create a re-recuitment thread.)


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## Guilt Puppy (Feb 6, 2003)

I'll have magic items worked up soon... Still mulling the character over in my mind, figuring out what he'd have. Also, in terms of history, are we trying to tie it into the book? If so, does anyone remember if Skywise's Go-Back daughter (name, anyone remember?) is still alive or not?

Heh, the details of the series (esp later stuff) escape me still...

Oh, BTW, big word of warning: I'm changing the magic system a little here and there... More costs are being lowered than being raised, some new abilities are being added, but in some cases restrictions are being imposed. I've weakened Practiced Casting to one point ignored per taking of the feat... Also thinking about setting the base Int at 13+ for it -- or even nerfing it entirely -- as it's an extremely powerful ability when using Ritual magic. Another possibility is simply qualifying that it only applies to the first round of a Ritual effect.

Also some basic errata... For instance, the Sender had two wholly different abilities called "Sense Location." Whoops


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## Guilt Puppy (Feb 8, 2003)

ElfQuest Magic, v 2.0 

Changes:

- Clarified some rules on when the subdual damage occurs, attacks of opportunity, and the like.

- Clarified some spells.

- Altered the way the Healer deals with subdual damage (it now costs two points to heal one point of subdual damage.)

- Changed Plant-shapers damage to be based around 1d4+1's, as opposed to 1d6's (same average, less range.)

- Substantially increased power of spell-shaper magic, to account for their other weaknesses. Based damage around 1d8+1.

- Added Sense Magic to the Sender's spell-list, and corrected some mis-namings.

- Added Combat Casting

- Substantially weakened Practiced Casting, as it was just asking for abuse.

- Changed the mechanics for the Sender's Wisdom bonus to armor class, making it less open to abuse. (Note that in the example, I forgot to specify the Sender was wearing a chain shirt. Oops!)

- Altered some costs here and there to try to balance the spell-casters a little more between each other, and those in the PHB.

Note that the stone-shaper is now extremely powerful in a cavern -- although extremely weak most other places. This is not the best way to balance a class, but given flavor reasons it seemed like the only option aside from having an altogether too-weak class. Plant-shapers run into similar problems, although they have the benefit of better hit points, skill points, and attack rolls, and are thus a little weaker in the forest than the stone-shaper is in a cave (although both classes are still extremely potent).

I may change some abilities around to make the shapers' damaging effects and the telekin's damaging effects resemble each other more, but I still haven't decided which model I want to keep, or whether that's really at all necessary. (It's still a little odd to have some effects cost a plus per radius, and others a times per radius, but considering it should really be times radius squared I guess both are equally wrong  )


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## Timothy (Feb 9, 2003)

great work once again guilt puppy. I think I'll post aal the rules in one post and re-recruit some players, so we can actually get to playing.

Game will start in the coming week...


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## Timothy (Feb 9, 2003)

New thread, reply there plz.


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