# New RPG Company Casting All Women for Genesys



## Morrus (Jun 13, 2012)

I'm mildly disturbed by this news item, but here it is for completeness' sake. There's a new RPG company that is in their words - "revolutionizing the gaming industry", by photographing "hot gamer chicks" beginning with their new game _Genesys_. Fables Streams is launching their new game later this summer, but in the meantime, they are "casting real gamer chicks to portray the nine main characters in the game". 

They are hosting a casting/launch party in Miami this weekend at Q Lounge Miami, where "hundreds of gorgeous women who love gaming will come out for their chance to be 1 of the 9 Fates in the new RPG Genesys". 

I have pasted the "MEDIA ALERT!" below (complete with breathlessly excitable "MEDIA ALERT!" headings), and attached the .docx press release to this post. I'm not sure how I feel about this, but it whiffs of gender-based exploitation to me and doesn't - in my eyes - qualify as "revolutionizing the game industry" so much as "using cliched cheap sexist gimmicks in the game industry that we should have moved away from by now". 

Hopefully, I'm just misunderstanding it - I'm all for promoting women in the industry, and I feel that they are woefully underserved in our hobby, but I feel lines like "There's nothing sexier than a hot gamer chick who knows how to throw it down and keep up with the boys" is language we need to avoid if we actually want our industry to actually represent a diversity of people, and find it hard to see sexism as "revolutionizing".

I'd be very interested in hearing the opinions of our female membership on this issue. Please be warned that, as this is no doubt a sensitive issue, EN World's moderators will be keeping a close eye on this thread; we do not tolerate sexism on our website.

Their website is here.
*** MEDIA ALERT *** MEDIA ALERT *** MEDIA ALERT *** MEDIA ALERT ***

MIAMI, FIRST CITY TO HOST CASTING EVENT FOR RPG COMPANY FABLE STREAMS NATIONWIDE SEARCH

Live Casting Party to Take Place at Q Lounge on Saturday, June 16th

There's nothing sexier than a hot gamer chick who knows how to throw it down and keep up with the boys, which is why the new Role Playing Game company, Fable Streams is searching the country to find nine vivacious women to portray the nine lead characters in their new Role Playing Game (RPG), Genesys. The search for �1 of the 9� will begin in the sexiest city on the planet, Miami, Florida at South Beach�s hottest new lounge, Q Lounge on Saturday, June 16.

The night will begin at 11 p.m. with international sensation Pirate Stereo working the turntables, spinning the hottest beats in Electronic Dance Music (EDM) while female revelers indulge in complimentary vodka cocktails, schmooze with fellow gamers, and prepare for their chance to become 1 of the 9."

The night will serve as an official casting party while simultaneously functioning as a ladies night at the new fabulous bar and lounge. Women will enter free and receive complimentary cocktails until 1 a.m. As the ladies enter the official 1 of the 9 Casting Party, they will be given a registration number and information on the characters they will potentially portray.

Throughout the night revelers will get a preview of the characters and the story of Genesys, as images of the Nine flash across the projection screens.

By the end of the night, Fable Streams will announce the Miami finalists for the national 1 of the 9 Casting Competition. (See end of alert for 1 of the 9 prize information.)

*WHEN:*

CASTING PARTY
Saturday, June 16th 
Casting: 11 p.m. to 1 a.m. 
Party: 11 p.m. to 5 a.m.

*WHERE:*

Q Lounge 
841 Washington Ave. 
Miami Beach, FL 33139
www.qloungemiami.com 

*CONTACT:*

Thomas Barker
305.509.2700
Thomas@tebentertainment.com 

*ABOUT:*

For more information on the 1 of the 9 Casting Competition visit www.1ofthe9.com and for more information on Fable Streams visit www.fablestreams.com.



Winners of the competition will receive the following:

A one (1) year contract with Fable Streams as a Fate
Travel the country with all expenses paid to make paid appearances
Receive paid training to serve as an official spokes model for Fable Streams
Receive a free styling session by professional stylists
Embark on and lead quests at events such as Gen Con, Dragon Con and Fable Streams VIP Launch events
An opportunity to connect with fans and through their own Facebook page and Twitter feed, as well as in person at various events
Receive exposure and coverage in magazines, TV interviews, national publications, websites, blogs, YouTube channels, and the FS website
An opportunity to make co-appearances with major brands.


----------



## Ashilyn (Jun 13, 2012)

...Yeah, that doesn't sound fishy as hell :x


----------



## Posr (Jun 13, 2012)

Fishy and cringe-worthy.


----------



## I'm A Banana (Jun 13, 2012)

Hahahahaha.

Oh man. Yeah, it's skeevy-looking as heck. And more than that, it seems...unintentionally hilarious. I mean, gamers? In a bar? In Miami? Because THAT'S a great place to indulge in your favorite pass-time and meet people with similar interests. 

Even if it's legit, and not more of a misguided marketing scheme / desperate ploy for attention, it reeks of objectification. It's a little sad. A little stupid. If they're not TRYING to look like creep-o's they're failing.


----------



## Ichneumon (Jun 13, 2012)

From all those gamers who would like to see some maturity in the RPG scene, and who want to see women treated as equal participants round the table instead of as eye candy for the guys to ogle - Thank* you very much, Fable Streams.

* I don't mean "thank".


----------



## BriarMonkey (Jun 13, 2012)

It smacks of desperate wanks who are trying to get laid.

I'd avoid that company and the persons affiliated with it at all cost.


----------



## kitsune9 (Jun 13, 2012)

What I would like to know is how they got so much money to put this together if they actually honored their contracts and plan to do this much PR for a rpg. I don't even think WotC or Paizo could afford this kind of budget from travel expenses alone.

I would be more inclined to say this is an elaborate stunt for rpg nerds to pick up pretty girls.


----------



## CleverNickName (Jun 13, 2012)

kitsune9 said:


> What I would like to know is how they got so much money to put this together if they actually honored their contracts and plan to do this much PR for a rpg. I don't even think WotC or Paizo could afford this kind of budget from travel expenses alone.



Yeah, something is rotten in the state of Denmark alright.

This is not an RPG company trying to promote its product.  No, this sounds more like a "modeling" company, trying to recruit "models."  If you catch my meaning.

My guess?  The casting company is a private contractor, and Genesys is just one of several clients.  The casting company is offering its services to Genesys at a reduced cost for coordinating the event...with plans to recover this cost by funneling all of the potential "models" to their other clients.  So nine women will get offered contracts by Genesys...the rest will probably get offers from adult magazines and film producers.


----------



## Lwaxy (Jun 13, 2012)

Sounds awful. I hope they go broke quickly.


----------



## nedjer (Jun 13, 2012)

It's the 'revolutionary' that says it's made for a 'most amazing game ever' thread at RPG.Net.


----------



## Incenjucar (Jun 14, 2012)

This sounds about as promising as "gamer snacks." Also potentially dangerous for attendees who take them at their word.


----------



## Hangfire (Jun 14, 2012)

Wow, just....wow. So it's all about gaming, but takes place from 11 PM to 5 AM (yeah, yeah, I'm old). Just what kind of RPG is this anyway?


----------



## tentfox (Jun 14, 2012)

It is pretty ridiculous that an RPG is essentially a casting couch for cosplay models. In fact when trying to find out about the RPG there is far more information about cosplay models than anything else.
However I find it ridiculous that people here are complaining about the event taking place in a bar and late at night. While on one hand we are trying to defend ourselves from the sexist stereotype, on the other we are perpetuating the other that we are introverted shut-ins. I at least applaud these guys for adding some diversity to RPG conventions.


----------



## TanithT (Jun 14, 2012)

I am a gamer.  Not a *thing* to be stared at, not an object to be objectified, not a 'hot chick' who is somehow not really human and not a full participant or a real gamer.

I would use much stronger language to state how deeply skeeved-out I am, and how angry I am at being treated like an object who only exists to be eye candy for the "real" (male) gamers.  But since that is inappropriate to this forum, I will simply say that I hope these people will someday grow up enough to actually respect other human beings who enjoy the same hobby they do.  

I have no problem with porn.  What consenting adults do is cool with me.  But it's not a good crossover with our hobby.  It is very likely to make women who game feel even more marginalized, objectified, judged for their appearance in a way male gamers are not, and ultimately rejected as people and as gamers even as they are drooled over as objects of gaze.


----------



## TanithT (Jun 14, 2012)

kitsune9 said:


> What I would like to know is how they got so much money to put this together if they actually honored their contracts and plan to do this much PR for a rpg. I don't even think WotC or Paizo could afford this kind of budget from travel expenses alone.
> 
> I would be more inclined to say this is an elaborate stunt for rpg nerds to pick up pretty girls.




Read the proposal more carefully.  This is likely to be an essentially online venture, and to contain marketing angles that are targeted towards what they believe to be the overwhelmingly single young male gamer demographic, including MMORPG and video game players.  

I'm actually guessing they're going to hit the interactive video and online gaming market, though with some unique slants.  Whether it will fly or not I do not know - and I assuredly hope it will not - but the demographics to make it work do exist.   That's what someone in Marketing is saying, and that's where the investment money is coming from.


----------



## Blood & Bones (Jun 14, 2012)

... I like pretty women as much as the next guy, but this smacks not only of creepiness but also of desperation to sell books. Role Players tend to be "smarter than the average bear," which means we can see through these types of tactics. It's insulting, not only to women, but also to the intelligence of male gamers.


----------



## TanithT (Jun 14, 2012)

Blood & Bones said:


> ... I like pretty women as much as the next guy, but this smacks not only of creepiness but also of desperation to sell books.




I don't necessarily think books are their main target, though possibly they are trying to position themselves to snatch some of the tabletop market share that seems in dispute after WotC's poor management decisions dropped their sales considerably.  I would not frankly be surprised if Hasbro cut their losses altogether, at a point that is likely to be sooner rather than later.

I say 'seems' because it's fairly obvious that Pathfinder is the logical successor.  But I suppose if someone had an extreme case of optimism and a high opinion of their own product, they might see the current tabletop market state as an opportunity.

On their website they are looking to hire 3D graphic artists, and they refer extensively to online gaming and game mechanics.   I am guessing that they want to do something they aren't seeing the other big tabletop companies currently doing, which is to say tie very closely into not just online gaming, but social media and live streaming.  I am guessing they are going for a giant tie-in of tabletop + social media + online environment.

This is a marketing angle that absolutely none of the big gaming companies have hit yet, and I think FableStreams is gambling that this may be their chance to make their mark.  The genuinely awful thing is that they could be right, because this really is quite a large marketing hole that no one else has even begun to properly exploit.

Consider how Farmville has done on Facebook, and think about that marketing tool as a tailored appeal to the single young male gamer demographic.  They are using a crude and horrifically insulting approach, to say the least, but it does have a history in the industry - eg, convention booth bunnies.  *sigh*

If this company has anything else done right, they could potentially go a ways.  Assuming I'm right on the social media marketing angle, that is.  I think I am.


----------



## Shemeska (Jun 14, 2012)

I'm not sure if books are their primary target either (based on a brief discussion over email earlier this year when they inquired about my freelancing availability). But I can't say for certain, and respectfully to someone that was willing to pay me, won't be going into details of what was on their minds at that time.


----------



## reemul (Jun 14, 2012)

Sounds like they should just skip a couple of steps and drop a line to Zak at the D&D With Pornstars blog and ask him who he knows in Miami. (Hey, it's a great old school D&D blog. And yes, the players in his home game are ... decorative.)


----------



## reemul (Jun 14, 2012)

OK, I know that's not my actual first post - did the counter get reset in some database update?


----------



## TanithT (Jun 14, 2012)

Shemeska said:


> I'm not sure if books are their primary target either (based on a brief discussion over email earlier this year when they inquired about my freelancing availability). But I can't say for certain, and respectfully to someone that was willing to pay me, won't be going into details of what was on their minds at that time.




Wouldn't expect you to.  It's not worth compromising your professional integrity and reputation, either by being careless with what is told to you in confidence or by becoming associated with projects like this.  

Besides, I expect the reveal to come pretty soon anyhow, if they've tossed this many breadcrumbs out on their site.  I think I can see the picture pretty clearly from here; it just remains to be confirmed if they are up to what I think they are with the social media focus.


----------



## Wraith Form (Jun 14, 2012)

This is just sad and pathetic.  

As others have indicated, as a hetero male with a *healthy* libido, I enjoy looking at and interacting with attractive women.  Quite a lot.

However, I will not and do not endorse this--financially or otherwise--as gamers already have a tough time of it, and female gamers should not be made to feel uncomfortable with any aspect of our hobby.


----------



## jtylerk (Jun 14, 2012)

Porn.


----------



## 1ofthe9 (Jun 14, 2012)

Hello Morrus,

My name is Lynnette, and I am one of the owners of Fable Streams. I'd like to thank you for posting the release on our national casting search for 1 of the 9 female lead characters in our new tabletop RPG, Genesys; however, I think it is very important that we clarify what we are actually looking for with this casting process.

We are in fact looking for our definition of a "gorgeous women." The type of "gorgeous women" we are exclusively looking for are strong, independent women, who break stereotypes and embody the true heart of a gamer. Why can't girl gamers be referred to as "gorgeous?!" I personally know many girl gamers who not only serve as GMs, but can also show everyone at the table a thing or two about gaming. 

We are only looking for women who actually enjoy playing or are exited about learning to play the same games that I, along with thousands of other women enjoy playing.  The mainstream media, television, and film have dedicated many years to portraying gamers as unattractive introverted people, who do not enjoy interacting with others. A perfect example is Raj from the Big Bang Theory, who can't even speak to women unless he has a drink. Fable Streams is about breaking those stereotypes. 

We have a company created by gamers for gamers, dedicated to sparking a movement to break mainstream stereotypes associated with the gaming community. We look forward to hosting our fellow gamers at Q Lounge this Saturday for our casting event and launch party. As gamers, shouldn't we be allowed to have a night out at a club, enjoy great music and have a cocktail, two or maybe even three. For too long gamers have been hiding—no more! Gamers Assemble! 

Anyone interested in knowing more about our launch party and casting event is invited to visit Video Contest 1 of the 9 Fates for Genesys RPG |


----------



## KesselZero (Jun 14, 2012)

1ofthe9 said:


> Blah blah blah




Oh, please.


----------



## TanithT (Jun 14, 2012)

1ofthe9 said:


> We are in fact looking for our definition of a "gorgeous women." The type of "gorgeous women" we are exclusively looking for are strong, independent women, who break stereotypes and embody the true heart of a gamer. Why can't girl gamers be referred to as "gorgeous?!"




Why do you refer to adult women as "girls", or as "hot gamer chicks"?  If you really believe that what you are presenting isn't about objectifying, judging, and making women feel like they are not accepted as normal participants in the hobby, then why not use more respectful language?  

I think it's possible that you imagine you're trying to be respectful of women by offering them 'powerful' character roles, but please consider your language and presentation.  You are essentially soliciting female pinup models and saying, "Look, girl gamers can be sexually marketable commodities too, they're not just ugly nerds, they can be hot sex objects!"

Really not seeing the problem with this?

See, part of the reason I am a nerd is that I say a great big F-U to media stereotypes of how women should act and dress and be, yaknow, marketable sex commodities.  I reject all that stuff because I like to play with snakes and crocodiles in the mud, I like to lift weights and kick ass, I like to dress for comfort rather than style, I like to play D&D and I don't care who knows it, and I feel no need whatsoever to take off my big nerdy glasses or dumb my intelligence down so I can look cuter for the boys.  Don't like me as I am, because I have better ways to spend my time than obsessively grooming myself for your visual pleasure?  Move on; it's not my problem.  Now you're trying to tell me that yes, indeed I *can* successfully be a marketable sex commodity, a gorgeous hot gamer chick?

Uh, dude, no, you're missing the point.  Of course I *can* put on uncomfortable clothes and smile and parade myself in front of a camera.  But I made the choice a very long time ago not to submit to being judged for my worth as a sex commodity.  That's why I'm a nerd.  Not because I lack social skills, or because I'm unattractive, but because I don't buy into the 'looks-ist' garbage that tells women that they have no worth unless they can succeed in the media-driven rat race to be judged on their looks rather than on their accomplishments.

What you're saying is that the stereotype is a valid one - women really do only have worth that is based on their looks - and you're offering folks who have been historically unsuccessful in playing that particular game a chance to get back into it and win.  This is the game a lot of us nerds opted out of on purpose, *because we think the game itself is seriously effed up and we don't want to play*.  No, we don't want back in, and we sure as hell don't want it taking over our gaming tables.

Regardless of your intent, this meme perpetuates the idea that there isn't any other way for a woman to be viewed except on her marketability as a sex commodity.   The spectrum of what a woman can be doesn't just go from "unattractive nerd" to "porn star".  Showing that gamer women can indeed be porn stars - and calling them "girls" and "chicks" while you're at it - does absolutely nothing to, as you say, 'break the stereotype'.   It just perpetuates some equally ugly ones at the other end of the same spectrum.  It doesn't teach your gamer community in general to be accepting or respectful of women as normal human beings who can just be gamers like anyone else.  

Probably the bigger problem is how women are going to feel about the message you are sending with your language.  Are some of them going to like the fact that there are powerful, sexy female characters?  Absolutely.  Are many of them going to like the fact that you are referring to these supposedly intelligent, respected, powerful women as "girls" and "hot chicks"?  Dunno about that so much.  

Are _any_ of us going to appreciate sitting down to a gaming table and being called "girl" and "chick" by the other gamers because your system teaches that language and that way of viewing and interacting with women?  Not a chance in Gehenna, bub.  

As a female gamer, I feel marginalized enough.  As a female at all, I already live in an environment of media bombardment that says I am worth nothing if I am not a marketable sex commodity.  I very much do not need more of this from my own kind.  If I sit down at a gaming table, I expect to be seen as a gamer - as a human being, as an ordinary person who just wants to play like everyone else.  

Bottom line, I do not want my gaming experience to look like this.  I do not want to be objectified by men whose idea of what women are like and how they should see us and treat us comes from people who refer to us in demeaning terms and use us as marketing commodities.  Tone down the 'hot chick' objectification crap and show a little more respect for the things you say you appreciate in women who game, and maybe we'll actually believe you.  Even the men have been reacting pretty negatively and angrily here, so it may be time  to seriously re-think your sensitivity level over in Marketing.


----------



## CleverNickName (Jun 14, 2012)

Welcome to ENWorld, Lynnette.  And thanks for taking the time to explain your company and your mission.  It is a hard market that you are trying to break out into, and I wish you the best.



1ofthe9 said:


> We are in fact looking for our definition of a "gorgeous women." The type of "gorgeous women" we are exclusively looking for are strong, independent women, who break stereotypes and embody the true heart of a gamer. Why can't girl gamers be referred to as "gorgeous?!" I personally know many girl gamers who not only serve as GMs, but can also show everyone at the table a thing or two about gaming.



Of course they can, Lynnette.  In fact, I have the pleasure of being in a domestic partnership with the very woman you describe.  I can't speak for everyone in this thread, but the reason I am so critical of your mission is because you are asking us to agree with you on something that is just...well, incorrect.

I disagree with the notion that society thinks we are all a bunch of unattractive losers who hide in our basements.  To the contrary, recent movies, websites, and clothing magazines seem to tell us that the "nerd" stereotype is desirable, and worthy of imitation.  From t-shirts with pro-nerd catchphrases printed on them, to oversized glasses frames and retro-styled briefcases instead of purses...people are spending a lot of money to look nerdier than ever.

And it's not just about wardrobe.  Here in Portland, it is not unheard of to walk into a microbrew pub and see people playing Magic: the Gathering, D&D, or Munchkin instead of watching the game.  A few days ago, I watched a couple of 30-somethings practicing for a LARP game in the park across the street on their lunch break...still wearing their suits and neckties, and in full view of the law office where they work.

To quote Wil Wheaton, "Geek is the new Jock."

And that is why your event is so offensive to some of us.  See, when you organize an event designed around "breaking mainstream stereotypes associated with the gaming community," the first thing you have to do is convince us that the mainstream stereotype is negative.  And that is going to be a very hard sell for gamers like us, who have known for years how sexy a nerd can be.  When you say "come, let us show the world that nerds are sexy!", we hear "the whole world thinks you're ugly.  Prove them wrong."  Nobody is going to rally around that.

In closing, I believe Schaffer the Darklord said it best in his song "Nerd Lust":

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pgk1nqkJAac]Schaffer The Darklord - Nerd Lust - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## GhostBear (Jun 14, 2012)

There's very little to say that TanithT hasn't already said, aside from:
_
Creepy_.


----------



## KesselZero (Jun 14, 2012)

Also, can we discuss the press release's assertion that Miami is the sexiest city in the world? I maintain that the sexiest city in the world is Winnipeg. Thoughts?


----------



## jtylerk (Jun 14, 2012)

@1of the 9:  As we said to the losing team: "Good hustle."


----------



## nnms (Jun 14, 2012)

I think what we're seeing here is a subculture collision.  I'm not a cosplayer myself, but I do know a bunch and have helped with some mould making, vacuum forming and props reproductions for some of the local cosplayers.

It's a totally different approach to gamer culture than the traditional RPG crowd.  So I'm not surprised that this is ruffling some feathers here.


----------



## CleverNickName (Jun 14, 2012)

KesselZero said:


> Also, can we discuss the press release's assertion that Miami is the sexiest city in the world? I maintain that the sexiest city in the world is Winnipeg. Thoughts?



Portland is waaay sexier, man.  We've got Voodoo Donuts.

Bacon on a donut, with maple glaze?  Hawt.


----------



## hamstertamer (Jun 15, 2012)

I don't see anything _creepy_ about it.  They sell beer, cars, TV shows, magazines, boats, dog food etc. in the same manner (images of sexy women).  So getting upset about the _sexy girl_ marketing strategy of an American game company is ridiculous.  If the "Gamer Girls" think there is something wrong with it, then they won't go.  Why not let them decide for themselves.  It's probably a given that there are some female gamers out there that have a fantasy of being a model too (just like female non-gamers) or they just want to draw attention to themselves for fun.  You can see this attitude from some women at gaming/comic book conventions.

I sometimes believe there are people out there that can't come to terms with the decisions that some women make for themselves.  Thus they are accusatory of the photographer/artist but not of the model.


----------



## TanithT (Jun 15, 2012)

hamstertamer said:


> I don't see anything _creepy_ about it.  They sell beer, cars, TV shows, magazines, boats, dog food etc. in the same manner (images of sexy women).  So getting upset about the _sexy girl_ marketing strategy of an American game company is ridiculous.




Let me see if I can even begin to explain why a lot of people, men and women, are saying that the "sexy girl/hot chick" thing creeps them out and makes them feel uncomfortable, especially when it is brought into our own nerd/geek/gamer subculture.

I have no problems with porn or sex work.  None at all.  Actually I think it's great, and I have friends in the sex industry whom I wholeheartedly support.  Women should have every right to be openly sexual when they choose to be around other consenting adults, without being shamed, penalized, attacked or harassed for it.   I think everyone should have the right to be sexual for money if they want to be, on the premise that if you own it, you get to rent it.  Nobody should be able to say boo about that.   And that's not what I'm saying.

The problem I have is when the sexual depictions of females become _knee-jerk and automatic_, to the point that "female" always equals "sexualized depiction" and "sexualized treatment/language to refer to them".  Because that's when it starts to spill over generally onto women who are *not* choosing or consenting to be sexual in that time or in that place.  

If I am sitting down at a gaming table, and the atmosphere I've just walked into is one where women are invariably sexualized - no exceptions, we're all "girls" or "chicks" or pick your condescending perjorative, always depicted primarily in terms of our sex appeal, and viewed more as passive objects to be acted on than as powerful actors ourselves - I'm going to feel creeped out.  I am going to consider this to be creepy behavior.  

I get that maybe you won't feel the same way.  Possibly you don't have the same experience of being bombarded with shaming media messages, being catcalled on the street by strangers, feeling unsafe walking alone at night, being judged on your shoes and your hair and whether you smile pretty for the boys even when you don't effing feel like smiling.  Our experiences may be different, and that's okay.  That certainly doesn't make you a bad person.  But if your feelings and experiences are that different from mine, I would simply ask that you listen and think for just a moment how it feels to be the product of these experiences.  

How you might react if all these things were true for you in mainstream culture, and you got treated to a little more of the same at the gaming table that was supposed to be your refuge from the cool-kid culture, not one more place to be judged for not being popular enough or pretty enough?  

Yeah, the weather outside is frightful.  That's why I'm an out-and-proud nerd, and why I prefer hanging out with other nerds and geeks and gamers who don't play the mainstream popularity rat race game. I am not thrilled that these enterprising folks are deliberately taking the worst part of mainstream popularity culture and trying to bring it to my gaming table.  It is very likely to spill over into the language other gamers use and the social attitudes they have towards me, another gamer who happens to be female.

Yes, I am creeped out by this.  I respect that other people's experiences and feelings may be different, but these are mine.  




> If the "Gamer Girls" think there is something wrong with it, then they won't go.  Why not let them decide for themselves.  It's probably a given that there are some female gamers out there that have a fantasy of being a model too (just like female non-gamers) or they just want to draw attention to themselves for fun.  You can see this attitude from some women at gaming/comic book conventions.
> 
> I sometimes believe there are people out there that can't come to terms with the decisions that some women make for themselves.  Thus they are accusatory of the photographer/artist but not of the model.



The problem is not the decisions that women make for themselves when they consent to be sexualized because they think it is fun.  That is not actually a problem.  The problem is presenting the overall sexualization of women in a social context that assumes that this condition must be true all the time, for all women, even in times and places where it is not consensual or appropriate.  

When I say "not appropriate" I mean when she's supposedly fighting a remorhaz or scouting in the arctic wilderness while dressed like a hooker with bills due.  Or when she's just another gamer who happens to be female but does not consent to being sexualized.  If you wanna do porn, do porn, but there is a difference between adults choosing to create and enjoy porn (nothing wrong here) and the generic 'pornification' of female imagery to the point that it's pretty much a default setting (lots wrong here).  

Porn is good, mmkay, but automatically porn-ifying a large percentage of female character depictions, or worse, depictions of actual female gamers, not so much.  I think there are real and serious social consequences to doing this, and I personally do not feel comfortable at a gaming table where this is happening.

You don't have to feel the same way, but if people - especially women - are telling you that yes, this DOES genuinely make them feel creeped out and uncomfortable - it's worth listening to rather than dismissively sneering at because it doesn't trouble you any.

If you take home no other message from this post, please consider this.  When a woman tells you "That behavior is creepy - it makes me feel uncomfortable and creeped out," and you respond, "You shouldn't feel that way, your feeling is invalid,  it's not really creepy at all," guess what - 

*THAT IS CREEPY.  *

That is really, truly, seriously creepy, because it it shows that you think your right to tell us how we should feel and what behavior should be okay trumps our right to feel that way.  It's creepy specifically because I don't feel safe or comfortable around people who think that way and behave that way.  Someone who thinks that his right (or society's right in general) to make me feel uncomfortable with sexual behavior trumps my right to say that I'm uncomfortable is a scary, creepy person.    

That's all.  If you don't want to be that scary, creepy person, please listen when a woman says, "That's creepy."  Whether you feel the same way or not, the fact is that she does, and you aren't going to fix that by making her feel even more uncomfortable and casually dismissing her discomfort.


----------



## Blood & Bones (Jun 15, 2012)

1ofthe9 said:


> Hello Morrus,
> 
> My name is Lynnette, and I am one of the owners of Fable Streams.




Well, Morrus didn't respond, so I will; Hello Lynnette!



> We are in fact looking for our definition of a "gorgeous women." The type of "gorgeous women" we are exclusively looking for are strong, independent women, who break stereotypes and embody the true heart of a gamer. Why can't girl gamers be referred to as "gorgeous?!" I personally know many girl gamers who not only serve as GMs, but can also show everyone at the table a thing or two about gaming.




That's all well and good but... you're doing it wrong. That's really the crux of the problem; you are doing it wrong. Basically, what it looks like you are doing is lining up eye-candy for the boys who will be purchasing your new RPG. MAYBE that's not your intent, and PERHAPS some individuals on this thread should give you the benefit of the doubt - but being a fair minded person myself, I find it hard to make that argument for you.

So what's a better way forward? Instead of putting women in the artwork, why not put women in the drivers seat and let them design the thing? There is no question that the number of male game designers out-number female designers and, being a married man, I realize that women have a very different point of view then men (It's subtle, but it exists.) Does this carry over into game design? You bet your dwarven axe it does!

WHAT I'M NOT SAYING: I'm not saying to create Desperate Housewives the RPG!!! Or Sex in the City RPG!!! I'm saying to let women gamers decide on the mechanics and setting - let them design a fully fleshed out RPG.  



> We are only looking for women who actually enjoy playing or are exited about learning to play the same games that I, along with thousands of other women enjoy playing.  The mainstream media, television, and film have dedicated many years to portraying gamers as unattractive introverted people, who do not enjoy interacting with others. A perfect example is Raj from the Big Bang Theory, who can't even speak to women unless he has a drink. Fable Streams is about breaking those stereotypes.




HEY! And what's wrong with Big Bang Theory!? 

Stereotypes are worn down by proof of the contrary, not by utilizing a different stereotype to make your case. Are female gamers sexy, beautiful, and vivacious? Oh hell yeah! But do they need to show skin to prove it? No. However, looking at the header-image for your website, I've got to think that is what you are looking for; a sex object.



> We have a company created by gamers for gamers, dedicated to sparking a movement to break mainstream stereotypes associated with the gaming community. We look forward to hosting our fellow gamers at Q Lounge this Saturday for our casting event and launch party. As gamers, shouldn't we be allowed to have a night out at a club, enjoy great music and have a cocktail, two or maybe even three. For too long gamers have been hiding—no more! Gamers Assemble!




Cool. That's all good. And I hope you succeed in this difficult market. However, I hope you come back to this thread and think about what has been said here, if not respond to it with candor and humility. This is a PR nightmare in the making, but it still isn't too late to undo the damage that has been done.


----------



## TanithT (Jun 15, 2012)

Blood & Bones said:


> So what's a better way forward? Instead of putting women in the artwork, why not put women in the drivers seat and let them design the thing? There is no question that the number of male game designers out-number female designers and, being a married man, I realize that women have a very different point of view then men (It's subtle, but it exists.) Does this carry over into game design? You bet your dwarven axe it does!




Unfortunately, the casting call is about women - excuse me, 'girls' - who can present well on video as "hot gamer chicks".  No mention is made of these women, er, girls, participating in the game design at all.  They get handed characters to play, and somebody does their costuming and makeup and hair. 

Unless I'm totally wrong here, and please feel free to correct me if I am, the casting call is strictly for models/actresses who are "hot chicks", and the "girls" are not being invited or expected to participate in any of the game design aspects at all.

'Cuz, yaknow, that's just not what hot chicks are for.  Can't imagine why people are getting annoyed about the underlying assumptions, here.


----------



## Blood & Bones (Jun 15, 2012)

TanithT said:


> Unfortunately, the casting call is about women - excuse me, 'girls' - who can present well on video as "hot gamer chicks".  No mention is made of these women, er, girls, participating in the game design at all.  They get handed characters to play, and somebody does their costuming and makeup and hair.
> 
> Unless I'm totally wrong here, and please feel free to correct me if I am, the casting call is strictly for models/actresses who are "hot chicks", and the "girls" are not being invited or expected to participate in any of the game design aspects at all.
> 
> 'Cuz, yaknow, that's just not what hot chicks are for.  Can't imagine why people are getting annoyed about the underlying assumptions, here.




No - you're right. If they really just wanted models, they should have just said "models;" it would have been less offensive. Truth is, I could have written a better press release and not change the over all meaning, without being offensive or stereotyping.

Then again, it is possible that this is just a publicity stunt. Negative attention is still attention - in which case we're giving them exactly what they are asking for right now. It's not a good long-term business strategy, but when you have nothing else to go on, shock will at least get you name recognition for a short period of time.

_My_ point was that if they really wanted to engage female gamers, there are far better ways to do it. A casting call for "Hawt Chix" is a better dog whistle for young adult males and old pervy men (guilty). 

To put it another way, if you want to "brings all the boys to the yard," you use your "milk shake." If you want to _Aretha's_ money, on the other hand, you have to give her a little R-E-S-P-E-C-T.


----------



## TanithT (Jun 15, 2012)

Blood & Bones said:


> _My_ point was that if they really wanted to engage female gamers, there are far better ways to do it. A casting call for "Hawt Chix" is a better dog whistle for young adult males and old pervy men (guilty).




Is fairly clear to me that they do not want to engage female gamers, except to hire a few as pinup models to help sell the product to male gamers.  

If they wanted to engage or even just *not totally creep out, insult and alienate female gamers*, they would cut out the "hot chick" crap and replace it with verbiage about how much they appreciate strong, smart, accomplished women who want to play powerful, iconic characters and become the 'face' of their new gaming system.  Perhaps with some actual input from these respected, highly accomplished gamers on the mechanics of the system, the creative setting, etc.  

It certainly could have been done without making it obvious that 'gamer chicks' are valued solely for their "hotness" and for their willingness to be submissive and childlike (eg, girls rather than women).  But that's not how they chose to do it.  Every bit of verbiage in their ad was pretty much calculated to separate the girls from the men.  The "hot gamer chicks" _are_ the packaged product, not the gamers who will be using the product.

So yeah, thoroughly creeped out, and not super optimistic about the success of any company whose marketing is that unprofessional.


----------



## Stacie GmrGrl (Jun 15, 2012)

I read it...read it again, and I just don't get it...

It's a crock of...  well, I can't say that word, but I don't think this is for a pen n paper RPG. Maybe a computer game... but I won't pay a cent towards it. 

I will pass.


----------



## Stacie GmrGrl (Jun 15, 2012)

CleverNickName said:


> Portland is waaay sexier, man.  We've got Voodoo Donuts.
> 
> Bacon on a donut, with maple glaze?  Hawt.




Voodoo Donuts, 24hrs, can not go wrong  
Does give Portland a nice boost of appeal.


----------



## Stacie GmrGrl (Jun 15, 2012)

TanithT... 

You are awesome hun.  I loved everything You have said and instead of requoting everything I just thought I'd say this one message to you. Some guys just don't understand.

I guess and I am wondering... maybe it's a confusion in me... but I refer to myself as a gamer chick, it's over there under my name and it never crossed my mind to think if it might offend... but I often just think of me as just a girl, ya know? And when others talk to me in general conversation I would rather someone refer to me as "hey girl," instead of "hey woman." Idk,  maybe it's just me... 

But when describing myself I could add an adjective that I wish I didn't have to add, and that is transgender. You want to talk about getting the strange looks and have people be confused about you or not quite know how to react trust me... I get it a lot. Being a transgender woman in this hobby of ours is tough... the many guys are wondering why do I do this to myself and with other girls I get two reactions... either they are totally cool or completely horrified. 

So I am just wondering if I should change the gamer chick part? Finding acceptance these last couple years, here in Salem, has been difficult to say the least.


----------



## jedijon (Jun 15, 2012)

Eh, it's just easy to hate this one is all.  There's a WHOLE WORLD of stuff out there just like this.  Then - you can take the plunge and learn there's a whole UNDERWORLD of actual evil, exploitation, enslavement, and various other sundry bits that are tearing people to shreds.

And this game lives in a world with "chibi bento box" or whatever that SDE company's other game is...people, I don't think we're going to get much worse of a name than we already have!


----------



## Stumblewyk (Jun 15, 2012)

If gaming was a larger, more represented hobby in the mainstream world, I'd think this was nothing more than someone with no experience in the gaming community trying to cash in on a marketing segment they didn't already have their grubby hands in with *SEXY SEX*.

Like it's someone with some cash, and their fingers loosely in TV, music, movies, or something, who thought, "You know who I bet loves BEWBS?  Those nerdy Lord of the Rings people.  You know, those geeky virgins who play D&D.  I bet we could get them to stop playing that Dragons and Doo-gooders game and play another game we made up if we include BEWBS.  I'll get my people working on that."


----------



## Meeki (Jun 15, 2012)

Finally, a RPG focused on gorgeous women clad in unrealistically small, form fitting fantasy armor, my gaming life is complete!

I'm sick of all those other RPG's who portray half-naked guys in skimpy armor, ugh! Move over Elminster in a bikini, make room for the elderly lady wizard, Cinnamon.


----------



## pauljathome (Jun 15, 2012)

Meeki said:


> Finally, a RPG focused on gorgeous women clad in unrealistically small, form fitting fantasy armor, my gaming life is complete!
> 
> I'm sick of all those other RPG's who portray half-naked guys in skimpy armor, ugh! Move over Elminster in a bikini, make room for the elderly lady wizard, Cinnamon.




While I completely agree with and understand your joke, the pedant in me has to point out there while there is WAY too much cheesecake art there is also a fair bit of beefcake art with lots of men almost as unrealistically armoured as the women.


----------



## KesselZero (Jun 15, 2012)

CleverNickName said:


> Portland is waaay sexier, man. We've got Voodoo Donuts.
> 
> Bacon on a donut, with maple glaze? Hawt.




Okay, you had to pick the day I started a diet. That sounds pretty amazing. Sadly the only time I've been to the Pacific Northwest it was Yakima, Washington, which is probably not the sexiest city on earth.

Still: Winnipeg. Look into it.


----------



## Kalontas (Jun 15, 2012)

Yet again someone tries to apply to our most primal instincts to drive his sales. Newsflash: it rarely works as well people expect it to.

It's gonna get some major sales at release, and then will promptly be forgotten.


----------



## CleverNickName (Jun 15, 2012)

pauljathome said:


> While I completely agree with and understand your joke, the pedant in me has to point out there while there is WAY too much cheesecake art there is also a fair bit of beefcake art with lots of men almost as unrealistically armoured as the women.



True.  But as ridiculous as the "beefcake" art can be, the men are almost always depicted in positions of power, strength, or authority...and women are nearly always shown in positions of subjugation, helplessness, or weakness.  The problem isn't just the amount of skin showing.

The presence of "beefcake" artwork does not justify or excuse the "cheesecake," because they are two sides of the same coin: they both reinforce the same unwholesome concepts about sexual perception.


----------



## fablestreams (Jun 15, 2012)

To all, 

Fable Streams is made up of a diverse group of individuals. We are a family. Many of us are girls, some are women, others are gay, at least two are hispanic, one is definitely Jewish, a couple are Asian, and the list goes on. Sorry if I left anyone in the family out, but it could get long. We are gamers, creatives, designers, illustrators, word wizards, cosplayers and geeks of many things.  Some of us have been playing for 20 years and others are newly converted.

Just to clear up any assumptions, the 9 houses were originally both men and women. After we started to develop the characters all us ladies said “dam# these beings are BAD A$$!” The girls rallied and demanded that the 9 house leaders not only be solely female, but that we, the (ladies, women, girls, chick’s) would design them.  When you learn more about them you will see that they are extremely diverse just like our little family and probably just like all of you. We are excited to be able to share them with everyone, but the stories are not done with editing yet so we will keep you posted. 

As far as the strong, bold and super courageous (women, ladies, girls, transgenders) who have been amazing enough to want to participate, we commend them and celebrate them.  We are so excited that they are looking to help breathe life into the 9. We are looking for real people. People who love gaming, roleplaying, themselves and all they are. We are looking for individuals who enjoy playing as much as we do. Every individual cast is expected to know our games and other games inside and out. They are true Game Masters and they, as well as all the ladies in our family are a vital part to game settings, story development and future character development. So from the hot chicks in South Beach “We hope you stand with us and forget about Charisma scores, 'cuz you will not need it.” 

- Krystal Z "real world Krystal" from House of Perfection


----------



## TanithT (Jun 15, 2012)

fablestreams said:


> Just to clear up any assumptions, the 9 houses were originally both men and women. After we started to develop the characters all us ladies said “dam# these beings are BAD A$$!” The girls rallied and demanded that the 9 house leaders not only be solely female, but that we, the (ladies, women, girls, chick’s) would design them.




While I am still kinda creeped out by referring to adult women as if they were underage children, especially in a sexual context, this sounds like a much better marketing point than the original press release.  Focusing on the diversity of your writing and coding team as well as the fact that the characters were created by women in addition to being played by women would go a very long way towards showing more respect and less sexploitation.  

And please, even if you personally identify as a girl or a chick, take some time to consider that many other women feel that those terms are derogatory or condescending.  Your choice is your choice and it should be respected, but others may be really uncomfortable with the idea of sitting down at a gaming table and being referred to that way by other gamers because your system says they should.  

Thank you for clarifying.


----------



## TanithT (Jun 15, 2012)

Stacie GmrGrl said:


> I guess and I am wondering... maybe it's a confusion in me... but I refer to myself as a gamer chick, it's over there under my name and it never crossed my mind to think if it might offend... but I often just think of me as just a girl, ya know? And when others talk to me in general conversation I would rather someone refer to me as "hey girl," instead of "hey woman." Idk,  maybe it's just me...




I can't really tell you how to label yourself.  I can only set my own boundaries about the labels I want applied to me, and explain why I feel that way.  

There are social consequences to using labels that can be perceived as condescending or derogatory.  In small ways, the consequences of your choices may affect other women.  But most of all it's you who is being directly affected, so it has to be your decision.  The absolute most I would ask is that you don't imply that those labels are appropriate for all women, whether they are cis or trans.




> Being a transgender woman in this hobby of ours is tough... the many guys are wondering why do I do this to myself and with other girls I get two reactions... either they are totally cool or completely horrified.




Being a transgendered person at all is tough.  You have my deepest respect for having the courage to show your real self in the face of social censure and rejection.




> So I am just wondering if I should change the gamer chick part? Finding acceptance these last couple years, here in Salem, has been difficult to say the least.




If you don't have a decent LGBT community in your area, move if you can.  Seriously.  It gets better when you do.   

As I've been saying to the cisgendered men, my experience and perspective is fundamentally different enough from a transwoman's that it is not my place to tell you how you "should" feel.  I'd be an absolute ass if I even tried.  I'm not here to invalidate your experience or tell you how you have to self-identify.  If it floats your boat to be a gamer chick, it's not any of my beeswax to say you can't personally be that.  Even if I emphatically don't want that label applied to me, or to women in general.


----------



## BriarMonkey (Jun 15, 2012)

fablestreams said:


> ... stuff ...




It matters not who you think you are, or what your "family" is, what matters is the message.  And your message is not only badwrong, but also offensive to many.

If you truely think you are trying to do something new and innovative, you need a new PR company or marketing people because going the route you have chosen will alienate many whom you seek to reach.


----------



## FitzTheRuke (Jun 15, 2012)

If Lynette is "One of the Nine" then doesn't that mean they're only looking for eight "chicks"?

Seriously though, Krystal, I recognize that some people can be oversensitive on these issues, and PC is passe, but you might want to really take a look at that press release again.  It comes off more as a bunch of creepy guys wanting to leer at cosplayers, and not what you describe your actual business to be looking for.

If you want real gamer women to show up, you might want to try something different.   Also, a lot of enthusiastic gamer-girl cosplayers are underage, so calling out for "girls" might get you just that.  Not really a good idea to take them to the bar after 11pm, don't you think?


----------



## GameDaddy (Jun 15, 2012)

OMG! The Q Club is still there! This club has been around since the late 90's, at least!

The average lifespan of a nightclub on Miami Beach is about 12-24 months.

That said, they are not playing by any kind of RPG rules, rather, the gaming company is going on Miami rules... where cash is King!

The publicity alone should give them enough to kickstart a company, easy. That said, if they run any kind of decent events at all, they'll have a continual draw of interested parties with money to invest to keep them going.

I know of DJ's that used to run one event or party a week on Washington Street, that would clear six figures a year, not counting record sales, and merchandising.

Brilliant & Crazy!, let's see how the ladies do!


----------



## GameDaddy (Jun 15, 2012)

BriarMonkey said:


> It smacks of desperate wanks who are trying to get laid.
> 
> I'd avoid that company and the persons affiliated with it at all cost.




Hah! If one is in Miami Beach, you don't need to start a game company to _"get laid"_, 'just sayin.

It sounds like an interesting idea. 

Ah! Here we go, found it!
http://www.fablestreams.com/about/

Good Luck 1of9! I'd be interested in hearing how the launch party turned out!

I'd be even more interested in seeing a preliminary release of the game itself, or additional supplements scheduled to come out with the launch of the game or soon after.


----------



## Blood & Bones (Jun 15, 2012)

fablestreams said:


> To all,
> 
> Fable Streams is made up of a diverse group of individuals. We are a family. Many of us are girls, some are women, others are gay, at least two are hispanic, one is definitely Jewish, a couple are Asian, and the list goes on. Sorry if I left anyone in the family out, but it could get long. We are gamers, creatives, designers, illustrators, word wizards, cosplayers and geeks of many things.  Some of us have been playing for 20 years and others are newly converted. <snip>




From your about page: "We are a group of gamers – not suits – who grew up playing the traditional pencil and paper role playing games."

Okay - you are a diverse group of gamers who aren't stuffy business types. That's great! And your clarification was a wise move on your part. New companies make mistakes, new leaders make mistakes, and new designers make mistakes. Chalk this up as a mistake... but learn from it.

Despite abundant evidence to the contrary, most stuffy business-types get where they are because they learn from their mistakes and are honest with their customer, employees, and peers. You may already have such an individual, but someone on your team should be in charge of marketing and messaging if you are to avoid a situation like this again.

Great companies are transparent - but also control how they approach the market. This mistake occurred because of a lack of control, but you still can (and have started to) make things right by being transparent.


----------



## GameDaddy (Jun 15, 2012)

Blood & Bones said:


> Great companies are transparent - but also control how they approach the market. This mistake occurred because of a lack of control, but you still can (and have started to) make things right by being transparent.




What? They already have their market. If they do it right (Judging by their FB page they are already quite busy), they'll earn more in one night with a publicity party than most game companies will make in a year with a finished game.


----------



## CleverNickName (Jun 15, 2012)

GameDaddy said:


> What? They already have their market. If they do it right (Judging by their FB page they are already quite busy), they'll earn more in one night with a publicity party than most game companies will make in a year with a finished game.



Assuming they can get enough people (and the right people) to come to the party.  I can't speak for everyone, but there's no way at all I would attend.


----------



## GameDaddy (Jun 16, 2012)

CleverNickName said:


> Assuming they can get people to come to the party.  I can't speak for everyone, but there's no way at all I would attend.




If I remember correctly, the Q club used to be called the Lounge. On any given Friday night 800-1,000 people at least, would line up at the door there (the perfect location in SoBe close to awesome amounts of parking!), and that was before 11 PM. I'd wager that almost none of them would be gamers. There's a few celebs (movie stars, or musicians) that would probably just show up for a launch party, maybe a major publisher (or two). A handful of Industry titans or heirs as well, and one or more professional sports figures. That would be a typical Friday night. If the music is good, and any of the other publicity clicks with the SoBe models, folks from MTV, or media in the community there, it's standing room only until closing time (4 AM).

Personally I'm a bit long in the tooth for that sort of thing now, but if you are youngish, single and looking for fun, the Q club would be exactly the place to go to meet someone interesting, and have fun on a Friday night.

If that doesn't sound like your kind of gathering, by all means skip it!

If it were me, and it were in any way possible, I'd also organize another launch party down in Coconut Grove / San Souci at the clubs near the University there.


----------



## Blackbrrd (Jun 16, 2012)

CleverNickName said:


> Yeah, something is rotten in the state of Denmark alright.



Poor Denmark!

It's a bit amusing though, because the Danish actually treat nudity as something natural. Their TV-shows and movies are all full of nudity. Might not be too obvious to americans though, since their tv-series and movies probably get rated the same way porn is.


----------



## TheShroud (Jun 16, 2012)

I personally dont care either way, besides that i know one of the girls that may be a likely candidate, and she is excited about it, i agree that they shouldn't be trying to win players through sex appeal, but on the whole treating women as equals, i feel like its silly the girls doing the casting call know good and well what they are looking for.  If they want to do this that is their choice.  and lets face it, whether we like it or not, or whether it is right or wrong, mature or immature... it is what it is and sex sells, but this trend is losing its steam because now our society would rather see blood and guts more than hot chicks. Which may actually be even worse...(sorry I digress), if people didnt like it they wouldnt be in buisness, so yes it suxs but if the game is good it will stay around if the game suxs it wont matter who they have promoting it. And in a week from now will this even mattter anymore?


----------



## KDNash (Jun 16, 2012)

[MENTION=86279]Stacie GmrGrl[/MENTION]
People giving you problems over that is just wrong. I know that I would never judge you for that, and I'd kick out any player of mine who would give you trouble. I don't know why GMs, or more generally, PEOPLE in general allow that sort of discrimination to fly.


----------



## TanithT (Jun 16, 2012)

> cyderak (in an xp comment to me): I disagree.....Its nice to see "easy-on-the-eyes" women in an RPG book.



Thing is, and I'm really not being sarcastic here, I'm glad SOMEBODY gets to have some sex-positive fun with their RPG's if they choose that as a consenting adult.

That isn't, by itself, the problem.  The problem is the social consequences when mostly just one privileged group of people (in this case, heterosexual males who enjoy looking at skinny white females with OMGBEWBIES) get to have their particular version of funsexytiems in mass market RPG material.

There is nothing wrong with funsexytiems among consenting adults, BUT, and this is a pretty big but (heh heh, no innuendo intended), _stuff happens_ when RPG's get sexualized.  There are effects.  Some of them you might not even notice or think about, because you're one of the privileged group who is getting what you want out of the material.  

Consider what happens when gaming material gets sexified in a way that is very specifically *not intended for heterosexual women to use or consume*.  Heterosexual men (and the occasional lesbian or bi woman) get their jollies by being the consumers, while women are depicted as the objects of gaze.  You're nodding and saying, 'Yes, this is good, I like this, I get what I want."  But, and here is that great big but again, other people mostly aren't.  And they're gamers, too.

This is what it feels like not to be part of the privileged group.  It's sort of like being in a restaurant that doesn't really serve "your kind".  We mostly get to sit and watch while you are getting served all the entrees. The people outside your privileged group are watching you eat and wondering why there is almost nothing being served on their own plates.  

This restaurant is designed to serve most of the food to just this one group.  People on the outside of that group can't help but wonder why they even came here in the first place, even if they can still really enjoy other aspects like the music and the decor and the company.  We start to feel pretty unwelcome at that restaurant even if everyone else in it says more of us should come on in.  After all, it feels just fine to them.

Next thing we notice is that members of our non privileged group are the ones being served *as *the entrees.  And maybe we don't even mind that, because after all it's not actually us on the plate even if it is members of our group.  But if the other people in the restaurant start treating us like entrees and not fellow diners, even if it's subtle and unconscious and mostly in the language they casually use, it's not gonna help that 'feeling welcome' factor.  Maybe most of the diners in the restaurant can actually tell the difference between what is being served up for pleasure and who are the other patrons of the restaurant, but it's fairly likely that some attitude or "entree" type language to refer to us is going to carry over sooner or later. 

Gotta ask you a question.  How would you feel sitting around the table with women and some gay men, at a strip club where the men were there to be ogled and the women were ogling them and making commentary on their bodies?  Would you feel kinda weird, maybe?  Like this was not a party for you?  Would you want to play D&D at that table?

In summary, while I'm of the opinion that sexy stuff for consenting adults is totally cool, there are some *really bad social effects* to having some people be the privileged consumers and everyone else being the products to be consumed.  

I'm aware that there are no easy fixes for the issue, because it's a much more pervasive one than just the gaming industry.  All I can really hope for is that my fellow gamers will just take a minute to think about what it means and how it actually feels to the people you say you want more of in your hobby.


----------



## Elf Witch (Jun 16, 2012)

1ofthe9 said:


> Hello Morrus,
> 
> My name is Lynnette, and I am one of the owners of Fable Streams. I'd like to thank you for posting the release on our national casting search for 1 of the 9 female lead characters in our new tabletop RPG, Genesys; however, I think it is very important that we clarify what we are actually looking for with this casting process.
> 
> ...




And what about the strong independent woman who are not gorgeous? What about woman like me I am 54 I am quite sure no mater how well groomed and extroverted I am I would never be picked because of my age.

Sugar coat it all you want you are looking for a Penny from Big Bang as representative of us gamergirls. 

It is not to bring more females into gaming it is to appeal to the same guys who drool over booth babes at Gen Con.


----------



## Greatwyrm (Jun 16, 2012)

I think the thing that upsets me the most about this is the response the FableStream folks have gotten here.  They obviously saw Morrus' original comments and those that followed here.  After that, they willingly chose to walk into the lion's den and plead their case.  Some of the responses they've gotten are good examples of how we train game designers not to interact with us.

Do I like how this looks?  Not really.  Sell me a system or a setting.  If it's pretty too, even better.  But can we at least put down the torches and pitchforks for a couple of minutes?


----------



## DorkNight (Jun 16, 2012)

I did an interview with these guys a few days ago.

The Dork Night Podcast

They seem earnest enough, and if this is cheesecake, I'm not sure they intend it that way


----------



## Consonant Dude (Jun 16, 2012)

TanithT said:


> There is nothing wrong with funsexytiems among consenting adults, BUT,  and this is a pretty big but (heh heh, no innuendo intended), _stuff happens_  when RPG's get sexualized.  There are effects.  Some of them you might  not even notice or think about, because you're one of the privileged  group who is getting what you want out of the material.
> 
> Consider what happens when gaming material gets sexified in a way that  is very specifically *not intended for heterosexual women to use or  consume*.  Heterosexual men (and the occasional lesbian or bi woman) get  their jollies by being the consumers, while women are depicted as the  objects of gaze.  You're nodding and saying, 'Yes, this is good, I like  this, I get what I want."  But, and here is that great big but again,  other people mostly aren't.  And they're gamers, too.
> 
> ...




I think it's a bad analogy, sorry. 

It's not that they are not "serving your kind". They are definitely  serving everyone. But some people may just not like what's on the menu.  The solution? If you don't like spicy food, skip the Mexican joint and  find a better restaurant. 

Having said that, I don't even accept the basic premise that "the menu"  is not catering to females in the hobby due to perceived  "objectification". 

As a sound engineer I've done a lot of gigs and covered the whole  spectrum of music styles. And in the venues where I work, artists who do  "the objectification thing" encounter massive... massive success with  women. Scantily clad chicks singing hip hop and rappers singing about  b****** (female dogs) have a much higher ratio of women to men than  ordinary-looking people singing about existential and social issues.  You'll be lucky if you get more than 15% women in attendance at  post-rock shows around here. 

I don't think eye candy immediately turns off women. How many guys are  attending all those insipid boys bands and girls bands and sex icon pop  star concerts exactly? Who's buying into all that crappy music wrapped  in publicity stunts like pseudo lesbian French kissing between popular  female singers?

As far as roleplaying is concerned, it's mostly escapism (not surprising  that it got its start in the fantasy genre considering that). It's  about contrasts, things larger than life, black and white. And in some  ways, probably wish-fulfillment. 

Most players want their characters to look like Kate Beckinsale or Brad  Pitt, not Rosie O'Donnell or Tom Petty. It's just how it is. Should I be  offended that roleplaying art often showcases guys with bulging  muscles? 

Do I personally wish the world was a little less about appearances and  glitter? Yeah, but there are limits. Trust me, nobody wants ME to  replace Daniel Craig in the next James Bond. Not even myself, unless  they paid me enough money to buy myself an island and disappear forever 

So, some random, probably crappy company is looking for female  roleplaying models.... what's the big deal exactly? Females who feel  like trying out can do so. And people who want to attend can do so. 

The last thing I am worried about when it comes to gender issues is the roleplaying hobby.


----------



## Felon (Jun 16, 2012)

Greatwyrm said:


> I think the thing that upsets me the most about this is the response the FableStream folks have gotten here.  They obviously saw Morrus' original comments and those that followed here.  After that, they willingly chose to walk into the lion's den and plead their case.  Some of the responses they've gotten are good examples of how we train game designers not to interact with us.
> 
> Do I like how this looks?  Not really.  Sell me a system or a setting.  If it's pretty too, even better.  But can we at least put down the torches and pitchforks for a couple of minutes?



Well-said.  

I don't currently have interest in what Fablestream's doing, but I do get sick of all the sanctimonious attitudes that portray cheesecake as something only juvenile people are into. Sexuality is not juvenile. Enjoying the site of a beautiful woman is not juvenile. Sexual fantasies are healthy as long you keep them in perspective, separating fantasy from reality.

But that won't be heard under the weight of endless pretenses of superiority.


----------



## Felon (Jun 16, 2012)

Elf Witch said:


> And what about the strong independent woman who are not gorgeous? What about woman like me I am 54 I am quite sure no mater how well groomed and extroverted I am I would never be picked because of my age.
> 
> Sugar coat it all you want you are looking for a Penny from Big Bang as representative of us gamergirls.



Well, that's a gamer type they're going for. That doesn't mean that the existence of a variety of female gamers is being denied.



> It is not to bring more females into gaming it is to appeal to the same guys who drool over booth babes at Gen Con.



It's certainly cheesecake. That's the business they're in. But the great thing about the free market is that the dollars do all the talking, not indignant posts in discussion forums.


----------



## Felon (Jun 16, 2012)

CleverNickName said:


> True.  But as ridiculous as the "beefcake" art can be, the men are almost always depicted in positions of power, strength, or authority...and women are nearly always shown in positions of subjugation, helplessness, or weakness.



"Almost always"? Decades ago, yes. These days, hardly that. Badass chicks are the draw in modern cheesecake fiction.


----------



## Sunseeker (Jun 16, 2012)

Considering that almost every shot with a woman in it on their website depicts them in skin-tight, scantly-clad outfits yeah....shameless.  I'm all for a little cheese here and there, but this is a pretty bold faced "lets sell something with hot chicks on it!"


----------



## Morrus (Jun 16, 2012)

TheShroud said:


> I personally dont care either way, besides that i know one of the girls that may be a likely candidate, and she is excited about it, i agree that they shouldn't be trying to win players through sex appeal, but on the whole treating women as equals, i feel like its silly the girls doing the casting call know good and well what they are looking for.  If they want to do this that is their choice.  and lets face it, whether we like it or not, or whether it is right or wrong, mature or immature... it is what it is and sex sells, but this trend is losing its steam because now our society would rather see blood and guts more than hot chicks. Which may actually be even worse...(sorry I digress), if people didnt like it they wouldnt be in buisness, so yes it suxs but if the game is good it will stay around if the game suxs it wont matter who they have promoting it. And in a week from now will this even mattter anymore?




And this, ladies and gents, is why women are such a small minority in our hobby. And they are; this isn't something that can be argued. The evidence is in: this stuff does have an effect. It's not harmless fun.

As for those who argue "it happens everywhere, so it doesn't matter that it happens here" - yes, it does happen everywhere. But we're an RPG forum, so we talk about RPGs. We can't do anything about Hollywood, but we can let our opinion be known about our tiny corner of the world at least. The fact that sexism exists elsewhere doesn't make it OK here in our little hobby. We wouldn't tolerate racism, and that certainly exists elsewhere. Someone else doing a bad thing doesn't make us doing the same bad thing magically OK.

If you're not a woman who feels intimidated or objectified in our hobby, you don't get to tell those women that it's OK. If you're male, you definitely don't.


----------



## Elf Witch (Jun 16, 2012)

Felon said:


> Well, that's a gamer type they're going for. That doesn't mean that the existence of a variety of female gamers is being denied.
> 
> 
> It's certainly cheesecake. That's the business they're in. But the great thing about the free market is that the dollars do all the talking, not indignant posts in discussion forums.




How old are you? I have found that the older I get the less I count. I am a huge geek when it comes to fantasy and SF TV shows but that does not matter to the advertisers because I don't fit that coveted 19 to 29 male demographics. 

Up until very recently make up companies did not bother to make make up for older woman we had to straggle to find something that was not full of glitz and glitter. That is slowly changing thanks to the huge amount of baby boomers with money to spend. 

I know what it feels like to be made uncomfortable by a hobby that focuses on just the guys I lived it during the 70s and mid 80s. When you were lucky if you could find a mini that was not half nude or deal with the whole idea that female characters are not as good as the male characters or hey your the chick go take off your armor and go distract the guards.

I have been to many a gaming or SF con and over heard fat male fans lament on the lack of really hot chicks. 

And that fact that a company that is claiming to have a lot of females in it and is diverse is not showing that but just want gorgeous hot gamers chicks is discouraging to me. Beauty is more than just cheesecake. Look at Frazetta art those woman may be submissive but they sure are not skinny with big boobs. They have full figures dare I say it in today standards they would be called fat.

I have a god daughter who is a beautiful healthy girl she is athletic competes in cross country running. She is 5 11 and weighs a 155 pounds of solid muscle. Yet she worries that she is fat because gasp she wears a size 12 and everyone knows that a size 12 is now considered a plus size. Marilyn Monroe wore a size 12. 

At school she is picked on by the size 0 Queen Bees because she does not look like them. What females do to other females is far worse than what any guy does. 

I think this kind of unhealthy competition is encouraged by society. We put little girls in pageants to compete in beauty. Girls has young as seven have died from anorexia. We pay thousands of dollars for treatments to conform to what is in style. 

This company can advertise any way they want to but I can also choose not to buy their product.


----------



## Morrus (Jun 16, 2012)

Felon said:


> It's certainly cheesecake. That's the business they're in. But the great thing about the free market is that the dollars do all the talking, not indignant posts in discussion forums.




Dollars are not a moral barometer. Plenty of dollars are made through wrongdoing; in fact I'd argue that dollars can promote wrongdoing, rather than being proof of something being morally right. If dollars were the only thing that mattered, we'd have had no social progress since the middle ages. Sometimes - many times in history, and indeed in current mainstream news - things change because it's right, not because it's profitable. This is a good thing, and something we should support.


----------



## TheShroud (Jun 16, 2012)

Morrus said:


> And this, ladies and gents, is why women are such a small minority in our hobby. And they are; this isn't something that can be argued. The evidence is in: this stuff does have an effect. It's not harmless fun.
> 
> As for those who argue "it happens everywhere, so it doesn't matter that it happens here" - yes, it does happen everywhere. But we're an RPG forum, so we talk about RPGs. We can't do anything about Hollywood, but we can let our opinion be known about our tiny corner of the world at least. The fact that sexism exists elsewhere doesn't make it OK here in our little hobby. We wouldn't tolerate racism, and that certainly exists elsewhere. Someone else doing a bad thing doesn't make us doing the same bad thing magically OK.
> 
> If you're not a woman who feels intimidated or objectified in our hobby, you don't get to tell those women that it's OK. If you're male, you definitely don't.




Really?? U being a male I guess you know what is right or wrong as well? ur opinion  just as mine, was my own. You assume and u go off ur opinion or the opinion of a few others. what about those girls who are really looking forward to this? Are they wrong for liking the idea of getting to be apart of it?  Are models wrong for liking how they look and for making a living off of modeling? just because u dont like it doesnt me it is wrong I dont think that it is the only thing that should make or break something, and because we are in an RPG forum and talking about RPGs lets focus on that whether it has girls on the cover of it or not if it sucks as an RPG it suxs, and it wont sell but if it actually has good content and is fun to play then the game will stick around and transend it's, as you put it "sexism" what is sexism to you? Because to me its seperating and belittling women, it is taking advantage of women? Because this company isnt taking advantage of anyone it is offering these women a chance to dress as and go around the country doing magazines, photo shoots and being apart of a "possible" new RPG. all the girls I met going for it did not feel taken advantage of. In fact my friend hasnt shut up about it... oh and her boyfriend is really big about sexism and people screwing her over and he supports this completely.  So let me ask you who are you as a man to call it wrong?  like it or not its what they are doing, like it or not the girls modeling wanted to do it. Why get upset about it? just try the game (or not) and then go heck no or wow this game wasnt bad.  All RPGs have women dressed in images wearing small articles or tight fitting clothes, and women go to Anime, comic, and RPG cons as characters in these outfits... And this upsets you?  I am no women but I am not going to bash something that i see people excited about possibly being apart of it due to my own personal feelings. and that is my feelings .


----------



## Morrus (Jun 16, 2012)

TheShroud said:


> Really?? U being a male I guess you know what is right or wrong as well? ur opinion  just as mine, was my own. You assume and u go off ur opinion or the opinion of a few others. what about those girls who are really looking forward to this? Are they wrong for liking the idea of getting to be apart of it?  Are models wrong for liking how they look and for making a living off of modeling? just because u dont like it doesnt me it is wrong I dont think that it is the only thing that should make or break something, and because we are in an RPG forum and talking about RPGs lets focus on that whether it has girls on the cover of it or not if it sucks as an RPG it suxs, and it wont sell but if it actually has good content and is fun to play then the game will stick around and transend it's, as you put it "sexism" what is sexism to you? Because to me its seperating and belittling women, it is taking advantage of women? Because this company isnt taking advantage of anyone it is offering these women a chance to dress as and go around the country doing magazines, photo shoots and being apart of a "possible" new RPG. all the girls I met going for it did not feel taken advantage of. In fact my friend hasnt shut up about it... oh and her boyfriend is really big about sexism and people screwing her over and he supports this completely.  So let me ask you who are you as a man to call it wrong?  like it or not its what they are doing, like it or not the girls modeling wanted to do it. Why get upset about it? just try the game (or not) and then go heck no or wow this game wasnt bad.  All RPGs have women dressed in images wearing small articles or tight fitting clothes, and women go to Anime, comic, and RPG cons as characters in these outfits... And this upsets you?  I am no women but I am not going to bash something that i see people excited about possibly being apart of it due to my own personal feelings. and that is my feelings .




I don't wish to be rude, but please take a moment to compose your thoughts and present them in a coherent fashion. With all due respect, I didn't follow that wall of text. Calm down a little; it's only a forum post.

As far as I can make out you said "it happens so it's OK"; plenty of things happen, but that doesn't make them OK. I'm aware that plenty of RPGs feature women in skimpy clothing; I also believe this is a contributing factor to the the small percentage of women in our hobby.

I believe that making the hobby inclusive and welcoming to both genders would be a good thing, and would enhance our hobby. While a 50/50 split is a long way off, we can certainly advocate towards it.  And if it ever comes to be, that will be an awesome and welcome thing.

And from a purely economic point of view, increasing your audience by 40% can only be beneficial.

From your post, it appears that you have a tangential relationship with this company, and thus a clear conflict of interest.  I hope that this isn't a case of members of the comany's forums storming over here to post rants, because that won't look good for the company in question. I certainly hope you're not representing the company in some way, because previous posts from company representatives have been reasoned and civil. Let's keep it that way, eh?


----------



## Consonant Dude (Jun 16, 2012)

Morrus said:


> And this, ladies and gents, is why women are such a small minority in our hobby.




That post you quoted, one guy's opinion (which I couldn't really understand), is the reason women are such a small minority in the hobby?

Seriously?

Sorry, I sincerely don't get what you are trying to say. But if you're so sure you've got the whole truth about this issue, you should probably explain it better.


----------



## Morrus (Jun 17, 2012)

Consonant Dude said:


> That post you quoted, one guy's opinion (which I couldn't really understand), is the reason women are such a small minority in the hobby?
> 
> Seriously?
> 
> Sorry, I sincerely don't get what you are trying to say. But if you're so sure you've got the whole truth about this issue, you should probably explain it better.




Then I'll try to explain. There are two facets:

1) My opinion is, of course, my opinion. As others' are theirs. Everyone is welcome to express their opinion civilly. Sarcasm is not welcome here.

2) Those that do not feel that this is an issue are - in my opinion, which is far from unique - part of the problem. We're talking about a general culture which factually discourages female participation: our hobby is dominated by white, heterosexual males. The percentage of female members of our hobby is terrible low, and we hear time and time again both here on EN World and elsewhere as to why that is. Ignoring the opinion of 50% of the human population can never be a good thing; it wasn't in the early 20th century, and it isn't now. As a society, the West has made big strides towards equality (gender, racial, sexual preference, and more) in the the last century, but it still has some way to go. Anything we can do to encourage that progress - even something as insignificant as RPGs - can only be a good thing.

Sure, it's better than it was. But that doesn't mean it can't be better. And the day when the average gaming group actually represents the diversity of our population is going to be a good day.

Because if a large portion of the population is discouraged from participating, that is a bad thing. And quoting the exceptions of female cos-players and the like is quoting exceptions, not the majority.

We've heard from women in this very thread. We haven't heard from the many women who are not posting because they don't feel welcome. I want those women to feel comfortable both here and at the game table.

3) and the third of the incorrectly labelled two facets: the fact that people are actually willing to argue _against_ gender equality surprises me. Who wouldn't want to encourage half the population to partipate in their hobby? When that half is telling us repeatedly over a period of years that they feel excluded, who wouldn't listen? Is it _that_ vital to have cheesecake in their game books? Is that why they like the hobby? Can't they live without it for the sake of a vast number of people? If they _must_ see pictures like that, they have the internet, after all; they can see any picture they like. Why _not_ accept the criticism of half the population and address that criticism? I hoenstly can't think of a good reason not to.

But when it comes dowen to it, don't listen to me. Listen to the women who have posted in this thread. I wish there were more of them, but sadly women are very much a minority in this hobby. I wish those who ae not involved in the hobby could post here to explain why, but they won't - because they're not involved in this hobby and will never post on EN World. 

Those women out there reading this thread but not posting - I encourage you to do so. I understand you may feel excluded or intimidated, but EN World's mod team is on your side.  I know some of you out there have your blogs and such, and have read this thread; please post.


----------



## El Mahdi (Jun 17, 2012)

1ofthe9 said:


> ...I think it is very important that we clarify what we are actually looking for with this casting process.




Okay, I'm listening...



1ofthe9 said:


> We are in fact looking for our definition of a "gorgeous women." The type of "gorgeous women" we are exclusively looking for are strong, independent women, who break stereotypes and embody the true heart of a gamer. Why can't girl gamers be referred to as "gorgeous?!"




Strong is good and quite sexy...independent is good and quite sexy...breaking stereotypes is very good.

So let's take a closer look at this. The press release says you're looking for _"hot gamer chicks"_ and _"girls"_ that are _"vivacious_" and _"vixens"_...hmmm...I thought you wanted strong, independent _women_...?

I'm not saying that strong, independent women can't also be _"vivacious"_, _"hot"_, or _"vixen"_-like...but those traits are far from requirements as to whether a women is considered strong and independent or not...nor are those requirements for a woman being considered _"gorgeous"_.



1ofthe9 said:


> I personally know many girl gamers who not only serve as GMs, but can also show everyone at the table a thing or two about gaming.




As do I, and I think they are awesome. But how many of those strong, independent gaming women do you think are going to feel comfortable GM'ing or playing your role-playing game when it's filled with only _*your*_ concept of strong, independent women? Especially since your definition is limited to _"hot"_, _"vivacious"_, and _"vixen"_-like...and as so many real women gamers don't fit _your_ definition. In other words, only the _"pretty"_ ones fit your definition...

That is unless you're only marketing to a very specific segment of gamers...namely young, single boys (and I intentionally used "boys")...?



1ofthe9 said:


> We are only looking for women who actually enjoy playing or are exited about learning to play the same games that I, along with thousands of other women enjoy playing.




A noble goal, except that it's not true. You're _*only*_ interested in marketing your game to young, single boys. The relatively small amount of _"girls"_ who you'll bring into the game directly through auditions, will be infinitesimal compared to the amount of young single boys you know you're directly marketing too...



1ofthe9 said:


> The mainstream media, television, and film have dedicated many years to portraying gamers as unattractive introverted people, who do not enjoy interacting with others. A perfect example is Raj from the Big Bang Theory, who can't even speak to women unless he has a drink. Fable Streams is about breaking those stereotypes. We have a company created by gamers for gamers, dedicated to sparking a movement to break mainstream stereotypes associated with the gaming community.




Great! But if breaking these stereotypes is one of your primary goals, then why aren't you also casting Men as well as Women, and one's that actually do break stereotypes, rather than just casting for stereotypical "hot gamer chicks"...? Where's the successful older Men and Women that play RPG's? Where's the Physicists, PR specialists, school teachers, soldiers, actors, musicians, lawyers, and others that also play RPG's...?

Oh yeah, I forgot...these groups are useless in marketing a game to young single boys.

You are completely contradicting yourself between your goals you just stated, and the language and manner in which you are marketing your game.

You are not doing anything to break stereotypes, but instead are reinforcing them. In this light, your saying that this is one of your goals is a completely fallacious declaration.



1ofthe9 said:


> We look forward to hosting our fellow gamers at Q Lounge this Saturday for our casting event and launch party. As gamers, shouldn't we be allowed to have a night out at a club, enjoy great music and have a cocktail, two or maybe even three. For too long gamers have been hiding—no more! Gamers Assemble!
> 
> Anyone interested in knowing more about our launch party and casting event is invited to visit Video Contest 1 of the 9 Fates for Genesys RPG |




Hosting fellow gamers and having a party sounds great...except that you feel you need to make it a "Ladies Night" in order to achieve your goals.

"Ladies Nights" have one purpose and one purpose only...get lots of women to come in for free drinks in order to attract even more young single boys as paying customers.

How is that having a party for fellow gamers...?

Either you're unable to see that your "Clarification" is simply a reinforcement of what people were already saying here...or your "Clarification" was nothing more than "Spin".


----------



## Felon (Jun 17, 2012)

Morrus said:


> Dollars are not a moral barometer. Plenty of dollars are made through wrongdoing; in fact I'd argue that dollars can promote wrongdoing, rather than being proof of something being morally right. If dollars were the only thing that mattered, we'd have had no social progress since the middle ages. Sometimes - many times in history, and indeed in current mainstream news - things change because it's right, not because it's profitable. This is a good thing, and something we should support.




And there's been no small amount of wrongdoing committed by those who felt they were the appropriate "moral barometer" for everyone around them. Their convictions about what they think of as decent and proper trumped other people's right to self-determination. D&D, Harry Potter, and the video game industry have all been targeted by those who deemed themselves the arbiters of morality and good taste. 

The principle of supply and demand offers the advantage of reflecting individual choices. If Fablestream's products are successful by virtue of profitability, then they have an audience. You do not approve of the content, and I can't say I have any use for use for it, but happily nobody is forced to purchase it. And even more encouraging, there's still plenty of other less prurient products out there for consumption.

Fablestream have presented their case, and they've asserted their intent is not to depict degradation. My sense of ethics tell me to give them the benefit of the doubt until they prove otherwise. That is bothersome to some is to be expected, but tolerance is the default requirement of living in a society that values diversity and individual liberty.


----------



## Felon (Jun 17, 2012)

Morrus said:


> And this, ladies and gents, is why women are such a small minority in our hobby. And they are; this isn't something that can be argued. The evidence is in: this stuff does have an effect. It's not harmless fun.



Can you present this objective, incontrovertible, argument-obliterating evidence for the community's evaluation? Women are not highly-represented in our community, but that may simply be that the kind of violent power fantasy that typifies the vast majority of RPG's is more off-putting than depictions of scantily-clad women. This is one reason why the R-rated action movie is no longer a major Hollywood endeavor. Women choose the movies that couples see, and they tend to prefer other genres (the other reason is that parents won't take their kids to them).



> If you're not a woman who feels intimidated or objectified in our hobby, you don't get to tell those women that it's OK. If you're male, you definitely don't.



I see. But a woman who feels it's not okay can campaign as much as she please? You, as a male, are entitled to rail against what you find offensive to women, but other males aren't to offer their counter-arguments, their opinions? That strikes me as an inequitable and high-handed view. It's not what I've come to expect of you.

In his post above, El Mahdi seems to be doing the right thing. He's listening, then challenging. He isn't simply dictating morality to others. He resorts to critical thinking and provides arguments that can sway the hearts and minds of others. This is the course I urge for all persons subject to reason.


----------



## Morrus (Jun 17, 2012)

Felon said:


> Please present your incontrovertible, argument-obliterating evidence.
> 
> 
> But a woman who feels it's not okay can campaign as much as she please? You, as a male, are entitled to rail against what you find offensive to women, but other males aren't to offer their counter-arguments, their opinions?
> ...




I think you're misreading - or at the least misunderstanding - my post. You state it's wrong to tell people their opinions are wrong, but then object specifically - and, indeed, only - to the very post where I say it's unfair to tell women their feelings are wrong? 

Do you actually object to my saying it's wrong to tell these women their opinions  are wrong? I'm hoping that this is just a communication problem.

There's a big difference between offering one's own opinion, and stating that women are wrong for feeling the way they - in this very thread - say they do. If they say that's how they feel, then I stand by my statement: nobody can tell them they're wrong to do so. Especially not me, a member of a group which will never feel discriminated against.

One can certainly offer one's opinion. But one cannot tell these women that they are wrong to feel the way they do. Because that is how they feel. They said so, right here in this thread.


----------



## Felon (Jun 17, 2012)

Morrus said:


> There's a big difference between offering one's own opinion, and stating that women are wrong for feeling the way they - in this very thread - say they do. If they say that's how they feel, then I stand by my statement: nobody can tell them they're wrong to do so. Especially not me, a member of a group which will never feel discriminated against.



It sounds like we did indeed have a communication problem on this item. If you are not denying others their two cents, then I can take no issue with that quote.


----------



## Morrus (Jun 17, 2012)

Felon said:


> It sounds like we did indeed have a communication problem on this item. If you are not denying others their two cents, then I can take no issue with that quote.




If I'm denying people their two cents, it'll be fairly obvious.  They wouldn't be able to post. Disagreeing with someone is not denying them their ability to speak.


----------



## Felon (Jun 17, 2012)

Morrus said:


> If I'm denying people their two cents, it'll be fairly obvious.  They wouldn't be able to post. Disagreeing with someone is not denying them their ability to speak.



To clarify further, I mean "denying" as in telling people that "the evidence is in" and "there can no argument". The following seems to your bombshell that cracks the case wide open:



> 3) and the third of the incorrectly labelled two facets: the fact that people are actually willing to argue _against_ gender equality surprises me. Who wouldn't want to encourage half the population to partipate in their hobby? When that half is telling us repeatedly over a period of years that they feel excluded, who wouldn't listen? Is it _that_ vital to have cheesecake in their game books? Is that why they like the hobby? Can't they live without it for the sake of a vast number of people?



As I stated before, I do not see it as a given that women feel excluded by virtue of cheesecake that is, frankly, not overrepresented. I've seen women pick up a D&D book and say "oh, she's pretty" or "give me a break" just as they would flipping through some fashion magazine. 

As I edited into a post above, I submit that the casual attitude towards extreme violence that is typical of RPG's and the gamers is not a draw for them. What is D&D without combat? What percentage of spells pertain solely to freezing, incinerating, electrocuting, shredding or simply tossing big ol' spray of acid onto living flesh? D&D can be said to be about a lot of things, and you can certainly have a session without an initiative roll, but I think we'd be kidding ourselves that D&D started out as and to this day remains an outlet for violent power fantasies that are just as prurient and objectifying and desensitizing as any slap-n'-tickle fantasy.

How many times have folks here been in a situation where a parley ended with a PC knocking someone's head off their shoulders? And when it happens, doesn't everyone at the table chortle like it was the cutest thing in the world? Maybe some folks don't find it all that cute.


----------



## Morrus (Jun 17, 2012)

Felon said:


> To clarify further, I mean "denying" as in telling people that "the evidence is in" and "there can no argument".




Well, there can be no argument against someone telling you how something makes them feel. I guess you could - at a stretch - argue that they're lying, and that they don't feel the way they say they do - but that would be a pretty silly, and remarkably obnoxious thing to say!

If this discussion is to have any wings, it needs to take people at face value: if the women in this thread say that's how these things make them feel, then that's how these things make them feel. I believe them. 

And thus my line of opinion: I would prefer it if our hobby didn't make  them feel that way. I don't think that's a controversial position to take, and I fervently hope that the majority agrees with that position. I'll certainly continue to advocate for it.


----------



## Felon (Jun 17, 2012)

Morrus said:


> Well, there can be no argument against someone telling you how something makes them feel. I guess you could - at a stretch - argue that they're lying, and that they don't feel the way they say they do - but that would be a pretty silly, and remarkably obnoxious thing to say!



Fair enough.



> If this discussion is to have any wings, it needs to take people at face value: if the women in this thread say that's how these things make them feel, then that's how these things make them feel. I believe them.
> 
> And thus my line of opinion: I would prefer it if our hobby didn't make  them feel that way. I don't think that's a controversial position to take, and I fervently hope that the majority agrees with that position. I'll certainly continue to advocate for it.





As I edited into a post above, I submit that the casual attitude towards extreme violence that is typical of RPG's and the gamers is as much a turn-off as anything we're talking about here, and its far, far more prevalent. What is D&D without combat? What percentage of spells pertain solely to freezing, incinerating, electrocuting, shredding or simply tossing big ol' spray of acid onto living flesh? D&D can be said to be about a lot of things, and you can certainly have a session without an initiative roll, but I think we'd be kidding ourselves that D&D started out as and to this day remains an outlet for violent power fantasies that are just as prurient and objectifying and desensitizing as any slap-n'-tickle fantasy.

How many times have folks here been in a situation where a parley ended with a PC gleefully decapitating someone? And when it happens, doesn't everyone at the table chortle like it was the cutest thing in the world? Maybe some folks don't find it all that cute.

I'm not proposing that anything change with regards to violence, because at the end of the day, there's a marketing principle that overrides the lofty goal of being all-inclusive: you cannot appeal to everyone. It would be nice to have more women in the hobby, but most hobbies have their core audience. You think if the NFL got rid of cheerleaders, that would suddenly attract an influx of women who now feel welcome in the boy's club? Fact is, aggressive pursuits like sports, war movies, martial arts, hunting, and RPG's all appeal to guys because most women just don't feel the attraction.


----------



## Kamaloo (Jun 17, 2012)

TanithT and Morrus have spoken extremely cogent arguments against the objectivication of women that I, at least, have experienced turning a number of women off gaming forever. I'd just like to say that the mere fact that many people _can't see a problem with such behavior_ is appalling to me. They may justify their view with arguments like, "everybody does it!", "there are bigger problems to worry about!" or "if it pays, it must be fine!", but as a woman, I'd like to state that IT IS NOT FINE, it is a plenty big enough problem for this hobby, and as others have stated, the existence of a problem elsewhere doesn't make it okay for that problem to exist in your backyard.

Feeling unwelcome in your own hobby so that the men can be pleased is an unpleasant thing. One poster argued against TanithT's analogy of the hobby as a restaurant by saying, "if you don't like the restaurant, find a different one." I believe TanithT wasn't referring to _this particular RPG_ with her analogy, but to the hobby as a whole. I'd like to think that person wasn't telling us to get out of the entire hobby if it makes us feel unwelcome? 

How about: NO. I'd rather voice an argument against that pervasive attitude that women in games exist to be, at best, rescued and/or ogled, and hope that game designers now and in the future hear that argument. If enough of us make it, maybe things will change.

Don't you want to see more women at your tables?


----------



## Kamaloo (Jun 17, 2012)

Felon said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




None of the women I've ever gotten to try the game was particularly put off by the violence of it. This argument might hold more water if a huge subsection of gamer women didn't play inherently violent games like WOW. As it is, I think this is one of the more pernicious myths that get bandied about.


----------



## Morrus (Jun 17, 2012)

Felon said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I honestly don't know. Maybe violence in games is a factor; that's not what women are saying, though. I'm not convinced of the value of opining that a reason other than the one they're actually citing is causing them to feel the way the do.

As I said before, I'm inclined to take people at face value. If women are clearly saying it's the cheesecake and sexist attitudes, I've no reason to believe it's something else. And I certainly wouldn't want to tell them that they feel the way they do for reasons other than those they say.

So I, for one, am going to remain at the point that if women are telling us the problem is sexist attitudes, then I believe that the problem is sexist attitudes, and not violence in games.  I don't feel I have the right to suggest otherwise.


----------



## Felon (Jun 17, 2012)

K. Amaloo said:


> None of the women I've ever gotten to try the game was particularly put off by the violence of it. This argument might hold more water if a huge subsection of gamer women didn't play inherently violent games like WOW. As it is, I think this is one of the more pernicious myths that get bandied about.



That most women are not into violent pursuits is not mythical. It is quite self-evident through the examples I provided above.


----------



## Morrus (Jun 17, 2012)

Felon said:


> . It's a niche interest, and to finger cheesecake as the smoking gun puts the burden of proof on the accuser.




But it doesn't; there is no burden of proof here. Nobody is obligated to prove to you, me, or anyone else, that something makes them feel the way they say it does (indeed - how could they?)

Nah; the burden here isn't one of a court of law. It's a burden of social nicety: if someone tells you something makes them feel a certain way, then believe them.  

Why wouldn't you? How could one claim to know better?


----------



## Kamaloo (Jun 17, 2012)

Felon said:


> That most women are not into violent pursuits is not mythical. It is quite self-evident through the examples I provided above.




So because women don't tend to do things that we're socially and traditionally conditioned not to do, that means we inherently have no desire to do them?

Out of curiousity, are you familiar with the term "mansplaining?"


----------



## Felon (Jun 17, 2012)

K. Amaloo said:


> TanithT and Morrus have spoken extremely cogent arguments against the objectivication of women that I, at least, have experienced turning a number of women off gaming forever. I'd just like to say that the mere fact that many people _can't see a problem with such behavior_ is appalling to me. They may justify their view with arguments like, "everybody does it!", "there are bigger problems to worry about!" or "if it pays, it must be fine!", but as a woman, I'd like to state that IT IS NOT FINE, it is a plenty big enough problem for this hobby, and as others have stated, the existence of a problem elsewhere doesn't make it okay for that problem to exist in your backyard.



In the above paragraph, I think you are mischaracterizing many peoples' point-of-view. Being so reductive of others' positions is invariably going to lead you to react to them negatively. The question is, are you giving the opposing the benefit of the doubt? Or are you inclined to simply write those positions off as "justifications" or "not holding water"?



> Feeling unwelcome in your own hobby so that the men can be pleased is an unpleasant thing. One poster argued against TanithT's analogy of the hobby as a restaurant by saying, "if you don't like the restaurant, find a different one." I believe TanithT wasn't referring to _this particular RPG_ with her analogy, but to the hobby as a whole. I'd like to think that person wasn't telling us to get out of the entire hobby if it makes us feel unwelcome?
> 
> How about: NO. I'd rather voice an argument against that pervasive attitude that women in games exist to be, at best, rescued and/or ogled, and hope that game designers now and in the future hear that argument. If enough of us make it, maybe things will change.



Giving that person the benefit of the doubt, they're saying the same thing as I did: there is a lot of product to choose from. Do not consume products that you find repugnant. And feel free to try sway others. But in turn realize that entails an obligation of fully hearing out the opposing point-of-view, otherwise it's a monologue rather than a discussion.



> Don't you want to see more women at your tables?



Let me blunt here: In my exprience, I've found the average gamer to be selfish, prone to anger and avarice, and either utterly self-involved and apathetic towards the other people at the table, or ready to pass judgment on them in the most high-handed fashion. This hobby is a magnet for the maladjusted. The articulate and enlightened folks on this forum? Don't seem to run into them.

My group has welcomed a few female gamers to the table. They played healers or things that had pets, which was a little different. However, they also conveyed saccharine and passive-aggressive attitudes, and eventually went away when they realized they would have to tolerate diverse playstyles rather than see those other players ejected from the group. Which is exactly what's happened with most of the guys who joined us for a while. In short, their gender didn't contribute much one way or the other.


----------



## Felon (Jun 17, 2012)

Morrus said:


> But it doesn't; there is no burden of proof here. Nobody is obligated to prove to you, me, or anyone else, that something makes them feel the way they say it does (indeed - how could they?)



You don't have to vindicate your feelings. But if you say that cheesecake is the smoking gun for why the throngs of potential female gamers won't join the hobby--well, I just don't weigh the handful of respondents here as being a bombshell case-closer. People are inclined to post about something that bothers. People who are not bothered move on with their lives.



K. Amaloo said:


> So because women don't tend to do things that we're socially and traditionally conditioned not to do, that means we inherently have no desire to do them?



I think that there are biological differences that lead to different attitudes. Testosterone gives men aggression for which they need a release, for instance. And women do have a biological tendency towards nurturing. I am, of course, speaking in broad terms. All things have exceptions, but if the traits I'm talking about were chiefly just simple social conditioning, they wouldn't be so nigh-universal. But we're talking about more than some paradigm we can shift. 



> Out of curiousity, are you familiar with the term "mansplaining?"



No, but I'm a pretty good guesser, and I'm going to bet it's fairly reductive and potentially sexist in its own right.


----------



## Morrus (Jun 17, 2012)

Felon said:


> You don't have to vindicate your feelings. But if you say that cheesecake is the smoking gun for why the throngs of potential female gamers won't join the hobby--well, I just don't the handful of respondents here as being sufficient proof. People are inclined to post about something that bothers. People who are not bothered move on with their lives.




True; I'll concede that a small handful of people is not a representative sample.

But I will add that this is hardly the first time we've heard women saying this. It's not an isolated thread. It's something I've heard repeatedly on RPG forums for as long as I can remember reading such forums. The overwhelming impression to me is that this is a common feeling amongst female gamers.

Maybe I'm wrong. I really don't think I am, though; and the women right here in this thread should be listened to.


----------



## Felon (Jun 17, 2012)

Morrus said:


> Maybe I'm wrong. I really don't think I am, though; and the women right here in this thread should be listened to.



Certainly. A diverse array of perspectives is desirable.


----------



## Felon (Jun 17, 2012)

Elf Witch said:


> How old are you? I have found that the older I get the less I count. I am a huge geek when it comes to fantasy and SF TV shows but that does not matter to the advertisers because I don't fit that coveted 19 to 29 male demographics.
> 
> Up until very recently make up companies did not bother to make make up for older woman we had to straggle to find something that was not full of glitz and glitter. That is slowly changing thanks to the huge amount of baby boomers with money to spend.
> 
> ...



I would say that there are all kinds of unfair biases towards physical appearance. A man who is short and/or bald is typically not gonna be the leading man in a film, but rather a buffoon or a jerk. He's also going to hear what a great friend he is by the ladies a lot more often. And being overweight? Guys get picked on for that too. Although, if a guy is tall, that seems to heavily offset anything else. It is a tall, rich-man's world. 

When talking of physical discrimination, it's a big club, filled with people from both genders, and it's unfortunate that it is so big. Once again, I say biology plays a big part in this as well. Certain traits attract members of the opposite sex, while others are off-putting.

Some of struggle to put it right (which is valiant but futile), while others take advantage of it. You seem to have exercised the proper action towards this product: don't buy it. I'll likely follow suit.


----------



## Greatwyrm (Jun 17, 2012)

Felon said:


> You seem to have exercised the proper action towards this product: don't buy it.




Call me old-fashioned, but I'm accustomed to someone producing a product before I boycott it.

Lets think, just for a moment, that maybe the folks at FableStreams true to their word.  Maybe, just maybe, they really are after Felicia Day and Sarah Darkmagic, rather than Kim Kardashian and Paris Hilton.  We really can't at least wait long enough for them to actually put up or shut up?

Someone said earlier this looked like a press release written by a hype company and not a gaming company.  Maybe I'm unique as the only person here to have ever spoken poorly chosen words or to have had someone say something really dumb on my behalf.  But are we really going to start going all Minority Report when these people haven't even produced anything yet?


----------



## Felon (Jun 17, 2012)

Greatwyrm said:


> Call me old-fashioned, but I'm accustomed to someone producing a product before I boycott it.
> 
> Lets think, just for a moment, that maybe the folks at FableStreams true to their word.



I don't know why you're going after the person whose had the least adversarial attitude towards this product in the last few pages, but the response is simple: when people have new information, they are free to revise their estimation. That's rather implicit. However, you don't need to see a final product for everything. Sometimes broad strokes and first impressions do just fine.



> Someone said earlier this looked like a press release written by a hype company and not a gaming company. Maybe I'm unique as the only person here to have ever spoken poorly chosen words or to have had someone say something really dumb on my behalf. But are we really going to start going all Minority Report when these people haven't even produced anything yet?



Making judgments about a product based directly on what its vendor tells you about it is not Minority Report. That's Preliminary Report. If the press release was poorly-executed, then they need to retract it, issue a new one, and then we can re-assess.


----------



## Greatwyrm (Jun 17, 2012)

Felon said:


> I don't know why you're going after the person whose had the least adversarial attitude towards this product in the last few pages...




I'm not going after anyone.  You were just the most recent person to say something like that.  I'm just a little surprised at the general attitude that a book that doesn't exist yet simply must be awful.



Felon said:


> That's rather implicit. However, you don't need to see a final product for everything. Sometimes broad strokes and first impressions do just fine.




Okay, let's get a first impression from their website.



























So far, I'm not seeing an endless stream of T&A.  Ya, I see the wardrobe of the blonde in pics 1 and 2.  There's probably no excuse for wearing a two-piece to steal a dragon egg either.  But this doesn't look like "Sex Object: the RPG" to me.



Felon said:


> If the press release was poorly-executed, then they need to retract it, issue a new one, and then we can re-assess.




I think it's fair to say there are conflicting opinions and interpretations of that release, given what the people who released it have said.


----------



## TanithT (Jun 17, 2012)

Felon said:


> As I stated before, I do not see it as a given that women feel excluded by virtue of cheesecake that is, frankly, not overrepresented.




I can't speak for all women; that would be silly.  I can say that I feel this way, and that every other female gamer I've ever talked to feels this way, and all the women posting in this thread who don't work for Genesys feel that way.  That's all.

I don't feel quite ambitious enough to undertake a full statistical count myself, though I did an informal one while looking through some random modules I got for Free RPG Day at a local store this afternoon. 

One of the supps - specifically the Pathfinder one, huzzah - was really, really good about showing female characters in totally appropriate clothes.  Even better, there was a dark skinned female paladin in full plate mail.  The mail did have small cups, which I truly wouldn't recommend for fighting in, but most artists aren't going to have enough experience to know that.  And the cups were definitely not emphasized; they were relatively small and the armor was properly large and blocky.  No skin showing that was not on her face. 

The only stupid/skimpy armor in that book was on a succubus, which makes enough sense to get a total pass from me.  The succubus belonged in the module as a logical part of the plot, and they use sex as a weapon, so the depiction was not gratuitous.  Score for Pathfinder's "Dawn of the Scarlet Sun" module, A+.  No facepalming. 

The Warhammer 40K freebie, "Only War: Eleventh Hour" also gets an A.  It has a single female image, plus one character in the far background on the cover that is probably female.  Both are appropriately dressed and holding weapons, just like the men.  The female fighter looks bad@$$ but not ridiculous, like a real woman who seriously lifts weights and runs around the jungle with heavy weapons on her back.  She is sleeveless, but so are most of the men, because they are all depicted as running around in a grungy, sweaty, tropical environment.  So the assorted states of undress (shirtless for some men, light/sleeveless for the woman) all make sense for the environment.  

Good job, Games Workshop.  The only reason it's an A rather an A+ is that the male images substantially outnumber the female ones; there were only two of the latter and twelve of the former,, and one of the female images was a small one in the background of a larger image, where the men were the primary focus.

The D&D "Dead In The Eye" module had no character art at all.  It did have one advertisement in the back that included a drow in dubiously skimpy armor, but the drow was male.  He was depicted as powerful and evil, as well as fit and strong.  You could probably argue that this was a sexualized male image, though there was enough else going on that I still saw it as primarily a character illustration.  Still, it met the criteria for impractically skimpy armor.  

The Harn map had 12 total human images.  None were of females alone; most were of males alone.  Many of the males have weapons and armor, or are shown as other types of adventurers.  Three of the images contained a female.  Two were depicted neutrally, as normal people in ordinary clothing.  None were shown as adventurers or fighters, or with weapons.  One is a queen, the other two are in peasant-ish garb.  One woman in a peasant dress was being restrained with a hand over her mouth by two smiling men in armor while a third watched.  You kind of get the idea what is likely to happen next.

Er.  Um.  Grimdark in an RPG is fine with me.  I have no issues with 'dark' plots or storylines, including torture, murder, genocide, violence and rape - if it's a useful part of the plot and if it forwards the story.  But reading the text that accompanies the image, there's nothing in it that a "violation is imminent" picture would be related to.  So, why?  The message I'm getting from this encapsulation of the Harn system is that men are the fighters and women are NPC background.  Or fodder for violent use.

This one would get a pass from me if the "oh look, evil armored soldiers physically abusing a terrified peasant woman" depiction actually illustrated anything that they were writing in the source material.  It didn't, so it doesn't.  That's a fail, Harn.  Showing realistic pictures of bad, evil people doing bad, evil things is one thing, if it seriously supports the storyline and world background.  Like, if they were giving background for a group of really Bad!Evil people to show just how Bad!Evil they were.  Maybe.  But random female victimization picture for apparently no reason I can find in the text?  Facepalm. 

The rest of the freebies either had no pictures at all or contained images of women literally in bikinis with bared midriff and thighs and decorative "armor" that covered very little, while fighting.  The offenders were:

Cosmic Patrol quick start rules: The Kahn Protocol.  Really, guys?  30's era one piece swim suits are not armor.  They're just not.  Wearing a Busby Berkeley outfit to an axe fight is so much Not A Good Idea.  Facepalm.

Worst offender: Dungeon Crawl Classics by Goodman Games.  There are seven images in total in this book, including the cover, that contain people.  The rest are maps, a skull, a house, abstract decor, non gendered monsters, etc.  Five of those images show women who are fighting or adventuring with bare cleavage, midriff, thighs, etc.  No woman depicted in this sourcebook was in normal, practical or just non revealing clothing.  

Seriously, who wears spiky "armor" just on one arm, carries a shield in the other, then goes to fight monsters in a _miniskirt and bra_?  Because that is actually what she is doing.  The guy next to her getting dumped off the pier is in full plate mail; the guy in front of her appears to be in some kind of robe, or possibly a tight shirt with loose sleeves and textured pants.  On the bright side, she's the only one not yet getting her butt kicked by the fish-thing monster, but I think that's probably because it's laughing too hard at how she's dressed.

Next page, take one point for racial diversity because she isn't lily-white, but for sheesh sake, strapping on a sword and fighting with a thin strip of cloth tied off around your breasts and a highly impractical harem-girl style dangling cloth strip covering your hoo-hah while leaving hips, thighs, midriff and everything else bare?  Really?  Are you not going to a) trip on those fluttering cloth strips, b) end up naked when somebody else steps on them, and c) GET FREAKING KILLED?

Couple more pages over, there's a male dwarf in a tabard.  At least he's as crappily armored as she is in this picture. She's in some kind of superhero-looking leotard getup with another one of those "dangling strips of cloth over the hoo-hah" things going on, leaving her hips and thighs bare.  In fairness, his thighs are showing too, but they aren't the focus nearly as much as her bare bits are.  Facepalm.

Back cover, the group of four adventurers.  One big guy is in armor, two men are in cloaks and robes, but the woman has a peek-a-boo cleavage hole in her hooded upper garment, and no pants.  Seriously, _no pants_.  The mace she's wearing at her belt can NOT be comfortable on her bare thigh. ​
Who the hell goes adventuring with *no pants?*  I am facepalming.  So. Hard.

This was an accurate and complete representation of all of the RPG source material I was handed today in the Free RPG Day swag bag at the store I went to.  I didn't choose any of it, so there's no personal bias.  




> As I edited into a post above, I submit that the casual attitude towards extreme violence that is typical of RPG's and the gamers is not a draw for them.



I don't mean to be insulting, but, um, do you actually know any female gamers?


----------



## Felon (Jun 17, 2012)

TanithT said:


> Seriously, who wears spiky "armor" just on one arm, carries a shield in the other, then goes to fight monsters in a _miniskirt and bra_?



I've seen tons of characters fighting in outlandish outfits with impossible weapons. Outlandishness and impossibility were probably what they were going for. Something, y'know...fantastic?

But on the whole, it sounds like you were able to find products that fell within your tolerance levels. That's reaffirming. Ideally, everyone can find something that appeals to them.



> I don't mean to be insulting, but, um, do you actually know any female gamers?



I think I already fielded that one, but more to the point, I've known plenty of females.

I've played lots of MMO's, and have been gaming plenty long. I've seen all types of gamers. Yes, female gamers can be cold-blooded or hot-blooded, but I'm not talking about the existing female gamers. I'm talking about this hypothetical untapped pool of women that are supposedly shunning gaming because they feel excluded.


----------



## TanithT (Jun 17, 2012)

Felon said:


> And there's been no small amount of wrongdoing committed by those who felt they were the appropriate "moral barometer" for everyone around them. Their convictions about what they think of as decent and proper trumped other people's right to self-determination. D&D, Harry Potter, and the video game industry have all been targeted by those who deemed themselves the arbiters of morality and good taste.




I agree completely.  For the most part, sexual 'morality' is stupid, and hateful, and all about limiting the rights of consenting adults to do what they choose with their bodies.  I think that is quite horrible.

Absolutely none of what I have been saying is about sexual morality.  None of it.  Zero.  Seriously.  I very much support sexual rights and respect for the choices of all consenting adults of all genders and orientations.  I don't believe there is ever any justification for getting between two (or more) consenting adults and limiting their sexual behavior.  Period.  End of sentence.  The people who try to do this are wrong and evil and what they do seriously hurts my LGBT friends.  

I am pro porn and pro sex industry - if you own it, you have the absolute right to rent it, and anyone who says boo to that or decides it means you should be shamed or harassed or treated poorly is a cretin who does not respect other people's rights over their own bodies.  I don't have an issue with women (or men) choosing to be models, or strippers or escorts or prostitutes for that matter.  Their bodies, their choices, end of story.

My issue with the generalized pornification of female images in RPG source material, games and comic books is not a "sexual morality" issue in any way, shape or form.  The issue is one of consent, and social privilege, and social exclusion.  

Porn isn't the problem.  Porn is good, porn is great, everyone should enjoy having it and making it in the flavor they like best.  There are lots of places you can have porn - after all, isn't that what the Internet is for?  The problem is that there are social consequences when you pornify mass market RPG source material in a way that excludes heterosexual women from being the consumers and primarily depicts them as the objects of consumption.

I don't actually care if that is your personal taste and you have a bunch of that in your porn stash.  Please enjoy it there.  But is it really too much to ask that it not be the default setting for female characters in my RPG source material?  Especially when it makes them look stupid?  The gratuitous eye candy doesn't usually add anything to the storyline, the characters, the world background or the campaign, and it has the potential to take a lot away.

Language that diminishes, trivializes or condescends to women can also take a lot away, and make women feel really uncomfortable about participating. So I'm hoping that FableStream will take the hint and become a better model for showing actual respect for the women who want to be involved in the hobby, or with their project.


----------



## Felon (Jun 17, 2012)

TanithT said:


> I don't actually care if that is your personal taste and you have a bunch of that in your porn stash.  Please enjoy it there.  But is it really too much to ask that it not be the default setting for female characters in my RPG source material?  Especially when it makes them look stupid?  The gratuitous eye candy doesn't usually add anything to the storyline, the characters, the world background or the campaign, and it has the potential to take a lot away.



"The default setting"?

Do you really that in the here-and-now, it's the default setting in RPG's? 

I was just going through my D&D minis the other day, and noticing how pretty much all the female characters were well-atired. And there's a lot of'em too. I guess that's one reason to wish I had some femgamers at my table.


----------



## TanithT (Jun 17, 2012)

Felon said:


> I've seen tons of characters fighting in outlandish outfits with impossible weapons. Outlandishness and impossibility were probably what they were going for. Something, y'know...fantastic?




If the guys in these books were wearing nothing but dangly tassles on their wing-wongs while fighting monsters, this would be a believable argument.  That wasn't what was happening, though.  With the exception of the one male drow image, the men were in normal clothes for the environment or in solid, practical armor.  




> But on the whole, it sounds like you were able to find products that fell within your tolerance levels. That's reaffirming. Ideally, everyone can find something that appeals to them.




Yes, that was pretty cool.  It doesn't change the fact that if I walk into a store and pick random gaming material, I'm going to spend a lot of time being reminded that I am not the intended market here.  And facepalming.




> I think I already fielded that one, but more to the point, I've known plenty of females.




So have I.  I'm not sure I know any female gamers who shy away from in-character violence, even if they aren't the serial killer type for reals.  Which I hope your male gamers are not, either.  Because let's face it, adventurers are basically murder hobos, and you can't really tell a good story without conflict.  Which is, quite often, most efficiently and productively solved with a bit of the old ultra-violence, as my droogs might say.   That's generally where all PC's go sooner rather than later in my experience, regardless of who's playing them.


----------



## TanithT (Jun 17, 2012)

Felon said:


> Do you really that in the here-and-now, it's the default setting in RPG's?




I think that every time I browse RPG source material, I'm going to be forcibly reminded by a nontrivial percentage of what I see that I am not its intended market.  And that women are supposed to prioritize looking hot over minor details like not dying, because lingerie has a really sucky armor class.  

I appreciate it a lot when I see material that doesn't make me facepalm, and I do see some of it, certainly more now than ten years ago.   It's very refreshing.  It is still very much a part of my everyday experience as a female gamer to know that any source material I look at has a pretty good chance of sending messages like this.  And they aren't really comfortable or welcoming messages for me.


----------



## TanithT (Jun 17, 2012)

Felon said:


> I've played lots of MMO's, and have been gaming plenty long. I've seen all types of gamers. Yes, female gamers can be cold-blooded or hot-blooded, but I'm not talking about the existing female gamers. I'm talking about this hypothetical untapped pool of women that are supposedly shunning gaming because they feel excluded.




Like a lot of my female friends, when I play on an MMO, I don't actually fess up to being female.  There's no point in it when all it gets you is harassment.   You might actually be surprised who in your party is female IRL, even if they're playing the big tank dude.  Yes, this can still work if your MMO does voice.  I can pretty passably pitch my voice male, and voice changers are easily buyable online for the ladies who can't.  

I don't really have any good answers about your hypothetical pool of women who don't game because they got turned off by what they perceived to be a sexist atmosphere, but maybe this will offer a small bit of anecdotal insight.

I'm largely retired from the con circuit and the SCA now for lack of time, and because it is bloody depressing that I can't fight any more, but I used to do a LOT of fannish events.  Filk cons, gaming cons, relax-a-cons, literary cons, larps, SCA wars and feasts, Faires, etc.  I got to know folks in a lot of different areas of fandom.  Sometimes while I was at a different kind of event at a big con I'd try to recruit someone who seemed cool for the next game I had scheduled.  I had a hell of a lot more luck with men than with women.

This is an adapted summary of multiple conversations I have actually had with fannish women who strongly rejected gaming.  The details varied of course, as does my memory, but the essential core of it is here.

"Hey, it's been fun chatting, but I'm scheduled to run a Serenity game in half an hour - do you play?  You're welcome to join us."

"No, I don't game, sorry."

"Wanna walk down there with me so we can finish what we were talking about while I set up?"

"I don't like to go in the gaming room."

"Why not?  You're at DragonCon, you're dressed up like steampunk Kaylee, and you were just at the science fiction writer's workshop asking about how to get more creative ideas for your writing.  Firefly games are cool."

"Those guys give me the creeps. I don't want to go in there."

This is not a "normal" woman I'm getting this from, because I don't bother recruiting mundanes.  This is someone at a convention who is significantly active in a fandom in some way, and who knows perfectly well what gaming is.  In fact she's probably done it before, and will say so  - she just doesn't want to do it again.

I didn't record statistics, I didn't take numbers, and since these were casual recruitment conversations at busy conventions, I mostly didn't bother asking any further what the specific issues were and why going in the gaming room seemed to be a definite "ew, I don't go in there" for a not overwhelmingly huge but definitely significant percentage of fannish women.  Seriously, the number of times I have heard women say that the gaming room is no-go territory for them is nontrivial.  Why this is exactly, I can not say.  But, it is.  

Some of it may be just the social stereotypes against gamers that seem to operate even inside of fandom, but I don't actually know.  I don't have anything more concrete than this, or any better answers.


----------



## Elf Witch (Jun 17, 2012)

Greatwyrm said:


> Call me old-fashioned, but I'm accustomed to someone producing a product before I boycott it.
> 
> Lets think, just for a moment, that maybe the folks at FableStreams true to their word.  Maybe, just maybe, they really are after Felicia Day and Sarah Darkmagic, rather than Kim Kardashian and Paris Hilton.  We really can't at least wait long enough for them to actually put up or shut up?
> 
> Someone said earlier this looked like a press release written by a hype company and not a gaming company.  Maybe I'm unique as the only person here to have ever spoken poorly chosen words or to have had someone say something really dumb on my behalf.  But are we really going to start going all Minority Report when these people haven't even produced anything yet?




A company needs to be aware that their advertising can turn people off no matter how good the product is. 

I was a fan of Dolce and Gabana especially their perfume until they did the gang rape ad.  The fact that they thought it was okay that a beautiful woman was being held down by a so hot guy with other hot guys waiting around for their turn was in any way a good idea made me say nope  I will not support a company that insensitive.  

This whole hot gamer chick thing has struck a  huge nerve in me so it would take a lot for me to want to look at the game. 

I am not saying I wouldn't but at this point I am like meh not interested.


----------



## Elf Witch (Jun 17, 2012)

TheShroud said:


> Really?? U being a male I guess you know what is right or wrong as well? ur opinion  just as mine, was my own. You assume and u go off ur opinion or the opinion of a few others. what about those girls who are really looking forward to this? Are they wrong for liking the idea of getting to be apart of it?  Are models wrong for liking how they look and for making a living off of modeling? just because u dont like it doesnt me it is wrong I dont think that it is the only thing that should make or break something, and because we are in an RPG forum and talking about RPGs lets focus on that whether it has girls on the cover of it or not if it sucks as an RPG it suxs, and it wont sell but if it actually has good content and is fun to play then the game will stick around and transend it's, as you put it "sexism" what is sexism to you? Because to me its seperating and belittling women, it is taking advantage of women? Because this company isnt taking advantage of anyone it is offering these women a chance to dress as and go around the country doing magazines, photo shoots and being apart of a "possible" new RPG. all the girls I met going for it did not feel taken advantage of. In fact my friend hasnt shut up about it... oh and her boyfriend is really big about sexism and people screwing her over and he supports this completely.  So let me ask you who are you as a man to call it wrong?  like it or not its what they are doing, like it or not the girls modeling wanted to do it. Why get upset about it? just try the game (or not) and then go heck no or wow this game wasnt bad.  All RPGs have women dressed in images wearing small articles or tight fitting clothes, and women go to Anime, comic, and RPG cons as characters in these outfits... And this upsets you?  I am no women but I am not going to bash something that i see people excited about possibly being apart of it due to my own personal feelings. and that is my feelings .




First of all could you please use the English language here and spell out words instead of  text speakusing also paragraphs are your friend I found this nearly impossible to read. 

The fact that you think it hunky dory that all RPGs have woman dressed in scanty clothes and that is okay is really an issue. A lot of us both men and woman have said we would rather see less cheesecake and beefcake and more art that really makes these people look like adventurers. 

As a female gamer it matters to me and let me tell you I have had female friends refuse to even consider gaming because that artwork says woman are not to be taken seriously and that the product is marketed to horny teen age boys. 

If woman want to model and pose for Playboy more power to them it is there life and body if girls want to run around as Vampirella at cons that is there choice. 

And it my choice not to buy a product and to speak out and say why.


----------



## Dire Bare (Jun 17, 2012)

TanithT said:


> The Warhammer 40K freebie, "Only War: Eleventh Hour" also gets an A.  It has a single female image, plus one character in the far background on the cover that is probably female.  Both are appropriately dressed and holding weapons, just like the men.  The female fighter looks bad@$$ but not ridiculous, like a real woman who seriously lifts weights and runs around the jungle with heavy weapons on her back.  She is sleeveless, but so are most of the men, because they are all depicted as running around in a grungy, sweaty, tropical environment.  So the assorted states of undress (shirtless for some men, light/sleeveless for the woman) all make sense for the environment.
> 
> Good job, Games Workshop.  The only reason it's an A rather an A+ is that the male images substantially outnumber the female ones; there were only two of the latter and twelve of the former,, and one of the female images was a small one in the background of a larger image, where the men were the primary focus.




There are women in the Imperial Guard now?  Cool.  I'm relatively new to the Warhammer 40K universe, but I was beginning to feel like the only women in the grimdark future (at least in the various armed forces of the galaxy's races) were the Sisters of Battle (um, "battle nuns"), who seemed like the token female characters and subsequently aren't all that popular in the game (the miniatures game, at least).  While I actually dig the Sisters' miniatures and vehicles, there are just tons of sexist problems with that "faction".  But that's a whole other post . . .

Oh, and it isn't really Games Workshop you're giving an "A" too, its Fantasy Flight Games, under license to Games Workshop.  I've always been impressed with Fantasy Flight Games, their game design, their writing, and their artwork.



> The D&D "Dead In The Eye" module had no character art at all.  It did have one advertisement in the back that included a drow in dubiously skimpy armor, but the drow was male.  He was depicted as powerful and evil, as well as fit and strong.  You could probably argue that this was a sexualized male image, though there was enough else going on that I still saw it as primarily a character illustration.  Still, it met the criteria for impractically skimpy armor.




D&D certainly has its history with cheesecake, but the drow, males and females, seem to incorporate cheesecake as a cultural value.  Which I'm actually pretty fine with, although many of the "classic" images from the 80s and 90s are pretty over-the-top.



> Worst offender: Dungeon Crawl Classics by Goodman Games.  There are seven images in total in this book, including the cover, that contain people.  The rest are maps, a skull, a house, abstract decor, non gendered monsters, etc.  Five of those images show women who are fighting or adventuring with bare cleavage, midriff, thighs, etc.  No woman depicted in this sourcebook was in normal, practical or just non revealing clothing.




The choices that Goodman Games made with their art for that product makes me sad.  I don't own any of their other products (not enough time and money) but I hear nothing but good things about their roleplaying products.  Well, until now.  I have a feeling that the art you say today probably reflects on their overall art design.  Goodman is all about "old school" gaming, and sadly it appears that they might feel cheesecake is an integral part of the "old school" feel.  Someone correct me if my assumption is wrong.

I actually would love to see a company go full 70s Frazetta van-art cheesecake in their art design, with an appropriately matched pulp setting . . . as long as it is marketed correctly . . . to a niche audience of older guys like me with a lot of nostalgia for that era (even if I missed it by a decade).  However, that company should not be WotC, and it should not be the D&D game, nor should it be any company who wants to target the same market WotC does, the general gaming community.

What a lot of hardcore gamers tend to forget, is that to most people, gamers and non-gamers, Dungeons & Dragons *IS* roleplaying.  Every single other game out there, including Pathfinder, isn't on the radar.  The company that produces D&D products, WotC and any licensees, does have a (sort of) responsibility to push D&D to be more inclusive and into having a wide appeal, as it is the flagship property that carries the industry.

2nd tier companies like Paizo (Pathfinder) and FFG (Warhammer 40K RPG) should also strive to move away from sexist art.  They don't "represent" the industry like D&D does, but they do cater to the general gaming community.

And specialist products like I mention above (my desired 70s inspired cheesecake rpg) would have to walk a very careful line . . . or risk becoming the next F.A.T.A.L.



> I don't mean to be insulting, but, um, do you actually know any female gamers?




Every single girl rpg gamer I've met (and talked about these issues with) feels the same way you do.  That despite their love of the hobby, there is an overpowering feeling of "it's not for you".

Every single girl "nerd" that I've met into video games, cosplay, SCA and other related nerdy activities (who isn't already an rpg gamer) has expressed reluctance to even give it a try . . . and its never been because of all the violence, it's been because of the creepy sexist vibe our hobby gives off, in both artwork choices and male gamer attitudes.  Our hobby has made huge strides since I started in the 80s as a kid, but this persists even today.

Also, every non-nerdy (or "normal") women that I've talked about rpgs with has also displayed an aversion to giving it a try due to the creep factor . . . rarely does violence get mentioned, although it has been a factor for a few.

I'm convinced that if the tabletop hobby wants to grow and survive against the onslaught of new media and not be confined to the niche hobby ghetto populated by old beardy fat guys (the one populated by model train enthusiasts), it needs to drop the sexist art.  Plus, I see it as the "right" and "moral" thing to do anyway, so positives all around!


----------



## Elf Witch (Jun 17, 2012)

In the thirty years of gaming I ave never heard any woman say to me no I am not interested because of the violence. 

I have had many say no because of the creepy guys.

Back in the old school days it was a lot worse I can't tell you how many times I had to deal with really outrageous stuff at the table. I had one DM who got a kick out of wanting to role play the rape of female PCs. He justified this by well rape was a common thing back in the dark ages. 

I had one situation in game where the my fellow good PCs including a paladin role played out the rape of a barmaid. They and the DM were shocked when I and the other female gamer declared we were attacking the male PCs and then after we had killed them packed up and left. She quit gaming that day.

Just recently I played at a store and young teen age girl joined us she was new to the game. She was a little over weight kind of shy wore glasses. She was playing a sorceresses. She tried her charms on the King using her high charisma and looks to influence him. One of the guy s actually said to her come on do you really think you have a clue on how to play a hot chick. I respond hey tubby do you think you have a clue on how to play a fit warrior.

The girl shut down. I gave her my email and told her that all gamers are not such jerks but I never heard from her. 

There are a lot of great guys in gaming but there are also a lot of misogynist jerks who hate the fact that girls want to play too.

And to ask is art really an issue go to any forum where there are female gamers and you will see that it is. Astrid's on WOTC had tons of posts by female gamers on this very subject with lots of men coming on complaining that how dare we want to take their cheesecake away form them. 

We don't want to take all cheesecake away. That is not what any of us are saying and no matter how many times we say it, it does not sink in. I know this because I have been saying it every time this subject comes up.


----------



## Lwaxy (Jun 17, 2012)

1ofthe9 said:


> We are in fact looking for our definition of a "gorgeous women." The type of "gorgeous women" we are exclusively looking for are strong, independent women, who break stereotypes and embody the true heart of a gamer. Why can't girl gamers be referred to as "gorgeous?!" I personally know many girl gamers who not only serve as GMs, but can also show everyone at the table a thing or two about gaming.




And thus you reinforce the objectifying of women in RPGs, which is a big big nono in the community! No, gamer women don't want to be portrayed as "gorgeous" because THAR is a stupid, outdated, sexist stereotype we are slowly getting out of the RPG art, and something that turns a lot of females off video games, too. 

Women want to be portrayed as they are, and it happens that most of us arent your definition of "gorgeous." We are normal women - and there more glasses wearing, short, fat, flat breasted, split haired, make up ignoring not model type women out there than those who could pass as a model. As a woman I find what you are doing very offensive and detrimental. I'd tell you to please stop this but you are clearly out for money so that wouldn't matter. 



> We are only looking for women who actually enjoy playing or are exited about learning to play the same games that I, along with thousands of other women enjoy playing.  The mainstream media, television, and film have dedicated many years to portraying gamers as unattractive introverted people, who do not enjoy interacting with others. A perfect example is Raj from the Big Bang Theory, who can't even speak to women unless he has a drink. Fable Streams is about breaking those stereotypes.



Hate to break it to you, but the stereotype you are enforcing is a lot worse. Women have to look pretty and slim and wear nice clothes and look "gorgeous" for what - the males, of course. Because no one needs to dress up to game, especially not for an RPG. The women and girls at my gaming table usually wear the most comfortable things, no make up, and not a one of them is close to your fake ideal for women. And all of them would love to come pay your event commercializing of what you think a female gamer should be a visit and protest. In a time where women still fight to be seen as persons instead of sex objects, you come along and try to pass it off as a positive thing for women?? Dream on. 



> We have a company created by gamers for gamers, dedicated to sparking a movement to break mainstream stereotypes associated with the gaming community. We look forward to hosting our fellow gamers at Q Lounge this Saturday for our casting event and launch party. As gamers, shouldn't we be allowed to have a night out at a club, enjoy great music and have a cocktail, two or maybe even three. For too long gamers have been hiding—no more! Gamers Assemble!



And this is the most silly thing I have EVER heard. If I go out on a non gaming event, like a club or a party, why in the world would this have anything to do with being a gamer? Nothing AT ALL. It has nothing to do with hiding either, I'm just not into shoving my hobbies down everyone's throat. And the very last thing the world needs is pretending, like you do, that gamers can't do the things you cite already. Because, we do. Young, old, fat, slim, male, female - we do whatever we like doing. Thank you very much. 

As a fat, middle aged, disabled woman, your event is sickening because it says "hey, this is how female gamers should look, all "gorgeous." For what? It's about the games, not about looks.


----------



## Kamaloo (Jun 17, 2012)

Felon said:


> In the above paragraph, I think you are mischaracterizing many peoples' point-of-view. Being so reductive of others' positions is invariably going to lead you to react to them negatively. The question is, are you giving the opposing the benefit of the doubt? Or are you inclined to simply write those positions off as "justifications" or "not holding water"?




Perhaps you would care to explain how those positions I mentioned (that is, positions explaining how objectifying women is perfectly all right) are entitled to the benefit of the doubt? Would you offer them the benefit of the doubt if they were, say, arguing that slavery is all right for those same reasons? Because I'll be blunt myself: I see no argument that can reasonably be made in favor of such a thing. Tolerance of opposing viewpoints is good and well, but tolerance of sexism, like racism, is a bad idea.




Felon said:


> Giving that person the benefit of the doubt, they're saying the same thing as I did: there is a lot of product to choose from. Do not consume products that you find repugnant. And feel free to try sway others. But in turn realize that entails an obligation of fully hearing out the opposing point-of-view, otherwise it's a monologue rather than a discussion.




If 'that product' happens to be the entire hobby, as was MY point, then you are essentially telling me not to buy any RPGs. I await any and all explanations of how this is reasonable and fine.




Felon said:


> Let me blunt here: In my exprience, I've found the average gamer to be selfish, prone to anger and avarice, and either utterly self-involved and apathetic towards the other people at the table, or ready to pass judgment on them in the most high-handed fashion. This hobby is a magnet for the maladjusted. The articulate and enlightened folks on this forum? Don't seem to run into them.




I'm sorry you seem to be running into such a low class of gamer, and that you seem willing to pass judgement on gamers as a whole because of them. I'm not sure what it has to do with any of my points, however. 




Felon said:


> My group has welcomed a few female gamers to the table. They played healers or things that had pets, which was a little different. However, they also conveyed saccharine and passive-aggressive attitudes, and eventually went away when they realized they would have to tolerate diverse playstyles rather than see those other players ejected from the group. Which is exactly what's happened with most of the guys who joined us for a while. In short, their gender didn't contribute much one way or the other.




I'm sorry you had a bad experience with women gamers at your table (again with the low end of the spectrum? Where are you finding these people?), but your experiences are no more representative of the entire population than mine are. The difference is that my experiences seem to have been shared by a large section of the female gaming pool.

I'm not saying that gender "contributes" somehow to individual games. I don't think being female contributes any more than being male does. I'm saying it would be nice if half the population of the planet felt more welcome in playing these games. It would be of economic benefit to the sellers, it would be a relief to women who do want to play, and it would represent a drop in sexist attitutes that are pervasive in our society.


----------



## Lwaxy (Jun 17, 2012)

Greatwyrm said:


> So far, I'm not seeing an endless stream of T&A.  Ya, I see the wardrobe of the blonde in pics 1 and 2.  There's probably no excuse for wearing a two-piece to steal a dragon egg either.  But this doesn't look like "Sex Object: the RPG" to me.




Uhm, those breasts falling out of their containment any minute don't shout T&A to you?


----------



## fablestreams (Jun 17, 2012)

*Skin*



Lwaxy said:


> Uhm, those breasts falling out of their containment any minute don't shout T&A to you?




Compared to many established and well known RPGs, comic books, movies, TV commercials, video game covers, etc, etc, etc.  The women of Fable Streams think our art is pretty tame, yes. 

XoXo


----------



## pauljathome (Jun 17, 2012)

Elf Witch said:


> Back in the old school days it was a lot worse I can't tell you how many times I had to deal with really outrageous stuff at the table. I had one DM who got a kick out of wanting to role play the rape of female PCs. He justified this by well rape was a common thing back in the dark ages.
> 
> I had one situation in game where the my fellow good PCs including a paladin role played out the rape of a barmaid. They and the DM were shocked when I and the other female gamer declared we were attacking the male PCs and then after we had killed them packed up and left. She quit gaming that day.
> 
> Just recently I played at a store and young teen age girl joined us she was new to the game. She was a little over weight kind of shy wore glasses. She was playing a sorceresses. She tried her charms on the King using her high charisma and looks to influence him. One of the guy s actually said to her come on do you really think you have a clue on how to play a hot chick.




It is absolutely disgusting that any of these things occurred. And there is absolutely no excuse for it happening.

But I'd REALLY like to think that they're the very unusual outliers. I've been gaming since 1979 and I've NEVER seen anything even approximating that occur. Not in all male groups, not in mixed groups. Never.

I'm quite sure that more subtle sexism has occurred in games that I've played in (a lot of it doubtless without my noticing in).  But nothing at that level

Admittedly, I came into gaming in university and almost all of my gaming has been with adults. Maybe that made a difference. Maybe I've been lucky. Maybe there are regional elements involved.


----------



## Blood & Bones (Jun 17, 2012)

Greatwyrm said:


> I think the thing that upsets me the most about this is the response the FableStream folks have gotten here.  They obviously saw Morrus' original comments and those that followed here.  After that, they willingly chose to walk into the lion's den and plead their case.  Some of the responses they've gotten are good examples of how we train game designers not to interact with us.
> 
> Do I like how this looks?  Not really.  Sell me a system or a setting.  If it's pretty too, even better.  But can we at least put down the torches and pitchforks for a couple of minutes?




... Yes, this thread has gotten emotional, but I don't think I can point to anything that was said about FableStream's actions that were incorrect. I look at it this way; if this was a much larger company and it had been racism instead of sexism, you would have seen an even stronger negative reaction.

Companies, if they are to survive in the social-media market place, needs two things; a thick skin and a willingness to accept valid feedback. If a company isn't willing to accept feedback or shrinks from its own customers when confronted with a legitimate complaints - regardless of how emotionally charged - those companies will shrivel and die.


----------



## TanithT (Jun 17, 2012)

fablestreams said:


> Compared to many established and well known RPGs, comic books, movies, TV commercials, video game covers, etc, etc, etc.  The women of Fable Streams think our art is pretty tame, yes.




The question isn't one of "tame" vs "explicit".  The question is, "How stupid do you have to be go into battle with half your torso completely bare and lots of skin showing?"

As a female SCA fighter I gotta say, the answer is "pretty damn stupid".  

Do you want your character to be portrayed as stupid?  Even if she looks sexy while she's being stupid?  I don't. 

There's nothing wrong with cheesecake, as I and all the rest of the women on this thread have been saying.  I just think there's better things to do with sexy art than to make women look stupid.


----------



## Morrus (Jun 17, 2012)

Greatwyrm said:


> Call me old-fashioned, but I'm accustomed to someone producing a product before I boycott it.
> 
> Lets think, just for a moment, that maybe the folks at FableStreams true to their word. Maybe, just maybe, they really are after Felicia Day and Sarah Darkmagic, rather than Kim Kardashian and Paris Hilton. We really can't at least wait long enough for them to actually put up or shut up?
> 
> Someone said earlier this looked like a press release written by a hype company and not a gaming company. Maybe I'm unique as the only person here to have ever spoken poorly chosen words or to have had someone say something really dumb on my behalf. But are we really going to start going all Minority Report when these people haven't even produced anything yet?




I'll agree that "boycott" may be too strong a word based solely on a press release, and that the proof will be in - as they say - the pudding.

However, and this is a big however, one should absolutely form opinions based on the press coming out of a company.  That's _why_ they make these press releases.  That's what publicity is for. 

Obviously, any company would hope for a positive rather than negative reaction.  Indeed, many would probably prefer a negative reaction to no reaction. But I don't feel that advocating not forming an opinion on a product based on the publicity created specifically for that product makes much sense.

Maybe later publicity could change minds.  But one forms opinions based on the existing publicity.  That's why the publicity is there.


----------



## TanithT (Jun 17, 2012)

pauljathome said:


> But I'd REALLY like to think that they're the very unusual outliers. I've been gaming since 1979 and I've NEVER seen anything even approximating that occur. Not in all male groups, not in mixed groups. Never.




No.  I've seen similar incidents, and walked away from a few gaming tables at conventions because of them.  

Not all guys who game are that creepy, but a nontrivial percentage of them, enough to affect public perception of our hobby, really are.  




> Admittedly, I came into gaming in university and almost all of my gaming has been with adults. Maybe that made a difference. Maybe I've been lucky. Maybe there are regional elements involved.




Age is definitely a factor, though some of the genuinely scariest offenders  - the ones I actually for-real did not feel safe around after they made certain remarks and used certain language to refer to in-game rape - were adult men.  Regional, not so sure; I grew up on the West Coast, am now on the East Coast, and I used to travel quite a bit to hit as many Worldcons and Nasfics as I could.


----------



## Elf Witch (Jun 17, 2012)

fablestreams said:


> Compared to many established and well known RPGs, comic books, movies, TV commercials, video game covers, etc, etc, etc.  The women of Fable Streams think our art is pretty tame, yes.
> 
> XoXo




So because other companies do it it makes it okay for you to do it as well even if your art work is not quite so bad. 

You could have put those woman in less reveling clothes, less cleavage and kept the hair and the facial features and they still would have looked pretty.


----------



## Elf Witch (Jun 17, 2012)

pauljathome said:


> It is absolutely disgusting that any of these things occurred. And there is absolutely no excuse for it happening.
> 
> But I'd REALLY like to think that they're the very unusual outliers. I've been gaming since 1979 and I've NEVER seen anything even approximating that occur. Not in all male groups, not in mixed groups. Never.
> 
> ...




There was a thread on Astrid's on the WOTC forums about creepy behavior and a lot of woman and some men had stories about it. And they were from all over. 

I have played at a lot of con including Worldcons and I have seen it and most of the creepy behavior was not teens but grown men who should know better. 

There are men out there who treat woman like crap who view us as here only to serve them. That some how we are not truly human beings with feelings, dreams of our own. 

It is one thing if a guy finds you desirable as well as smart, funny and enjoys spending time with you outside of bed. But it is really degrading if a guy only views you as something to have sex with  no different than a blow up doll. 

I am well aware that men like looking at sexy woman that a man's sex drive is more visual than a woman. And that is biology and perfectly fine. And that is why there are publications that cater to that.

But most people don't play RPGs to be sexually stimulated so why the need for sexually stimulating art. 

Most of this is not in answer to pauljathome post. It just came to my mind as I was answering him.


----------



## TanithT (Jun 17, 2012)

Elf Witch said:


> You could have put those woman in less reveling clothes, less cleavage and kept the hair and the facial features and they still would have looked pretty.




In the actual campaign material source images, where you are depicting female PC's and NPC's in order to flesh out character and world background, and they are fighting monsters and adventuring in hostile environments and otherwise doing the same exact stuff as the male adventurers?  They should be wearing pretty much the same equipment, too.  Because it's really, really stupid for them not to be.  

The issue here is not "porn is bad", but "please don't make all the women in your world look like fashion plate bimbos who would be utterly incapable of defending themselves or of surviving the dungeon."  Lingerie and prom dresses have a really sucky armor class.  You wear them in the bedroom or the ballroom, not on the battlefield.  

In any other material you want to produce like pin-up calendars, candid art of your character while she is in her bedroom relaxing or getting busy with other characters?  Hey, have fun with that.  That's what it's for.  It's not stupid or demeaning or ridiculous in that context, and you don't send the message that this is all women that are good for and this is the only way a female character can be depicted.  Because porn is fun, and it's okay for adults to have some.  Nothing wrong there.

Fighting monsters in your underwear?  With no pants?  In a chainmail bikini?  In a low-cut prom dress?   That's stupid.  And that's where it becomes obvious that the women in your world are useless for anything except being bimbos, because they sure as hell aren't getting anything else done while they are dressed like that.  In a situation where you're supposed to be depicting them as actors and doers, as strong characters who have skills and strength and powers and spells, you are depicting them as sex objects whose primary asset is how they look.  In fact they clearly care more about how they look than about minor details like actually getting through the adventure alive.

There's definitely a time and a place to dress up (or take it all off) and look sexy when you want to.  But if your female characters *never stop doing that* long enough to do anything else, even when it is is suicidally stupid, it really detracts from them as characters.  

It is maybe slightly more excusable if all of the men are dressed the same way, because then it's obvious that realism has flown totally out the window and you're depicting everybody romping around the fantasy landscape half-nekkid or in kinky costumes.  Because it's fun, not because it's realistic.  It's still stupid, but it's not targeting only one gender as being the stupid ones.

But if the women are portrayed as pin-up types who are dressed fashionably but foolishly for adventuring, while the men are in full armor and sensible clothes, please consider the message you're sending about their respective roles.  It isn't a healthy one.

It only gets worse, or at least more obvious what you're doing, if you also use diminishing language to refer to the actual women whom you are inviting to participate.  Please don't, FableStream.  Thank you.


----------



## Kamaloo (Jun 17, 2012)

Elf Witch said:


> There was a thread on Astrid's on the WOTC forums about creepy behavior and a lot of woman and some men had stories about it. And they were from all over.
> 
> I have played at a lot of con including Worldcons and I have seen it and most of the creepy behavior was not teens but grown men who should know better.
> 
> There are men out there who treat woman like crap who view us as here only to serve them. That some how we are not truly human beings with feelings, dreams of our own.




I played in one group when I was a teenager where the guys flat out began describing how they were feeling up the barmaids, whose main character trait appeared to be "they have big boobs." I left before they started describing actual intercourse. Had that been my introduction to gaming, it would have been the last time I played.

In my early twenties I played a game at a con where we played pregens, and of course I got saddled with the lone female character, since I was the only woman at the table. Now, the premise of this game was that the characters were evil, but worked together to overthrow the good guys. That fell apart about 15 minutes into the adventure when the male players all began laughing about how their characters were going to gang rape my character - and then proceeded to roll to see if they could do it. I left that table in a damn hurry.

These are not the only experiences of disrespect and skeeviness that I've had, just the two I'm using to emphasise the point that behavior like this isn't really all that unusual, nor is it confined to the US. If there are women gamers who don't have stories like the ones described in this thread, I haven't met them.


----------



## Consonant Dude (Jun 17, 2012)

K. Amaloo said:


> Feeling unwelcome in your own hobby so that the men can be pleased is an  unpleasant thing. One poster argued against TanithT's analogy of the  hobby as a restaurant by saying, "if you don't like the restaurant, find  a different one." I believe TanithT wasn't referring to _this particular RPG_  with her analogy, but to the hobby as a whole. I'd like to think that  person wasn't telling us to get out of the entire hobby if it makes us  feel unwelcome?




I am the poster you are referring too (post #67 ). 

I'm sorry, but the idea that the whole hobby is not "serving one kind"  (those were Tanith's words) would be preposterous. The hobby is large,  comprised of fans, professionals, different products, game shops, etc...  and there's no active attempt to prevent people from a specific race,  color, creed, gender to participate. 

It's there for anyone to pick what they like, thus my comment that if  you don't like what's on the menu, you pick another group, RPG, etc...

It should be said that one of the most amazing aspect of tabletop  roleplaying is how empowering it is for the end user. Especially in the  internet age, there's just no excuse. You can pick up from a variety of  games (even some generic ones which are absolutely 100% gender neutral),  make up your storie and adventures, form a group of like-minded  individuals to roleplay with. 

What you're saying is different from Tanith. You're saying the hobby  doesn't make you feel welcome. I can empathize with that but that's a  rather vague statement. There are crappy games and hobby shops out  there. And yeah, it makes me cringe when I hear certain stories about  creepy gamers (those stories happen to guys too, you know). 

But there's tons of great games. And tons of ways to personalize this  experience even more. You can play any kind of adventures you want.  There are hobby shops that are respectful.

And most of all, there's tons of cool people playing those games or just waiting for someone to show them how to play. 

So, I can sympathize that you're not feeling welcome but I can't really  empathize. Because the issues you speak of, I just don't see them as far as the hobby is concerned.



K. Amaloo said:


> Don't you want to see more women at your tables?




There's already been plenty of girls and women at my table. But really, I  couldn't care less whether the people I play with have a penis or a  vagina. I just want to be with cool people and for all of us to have a  great time. And that's what happens in our case. 

None of that stuff about not serving one's kind.


----------



## TanithT (Jun 17, 2012)

Consonant Dude said:


> I'm sorry, but the idea that the whole hobby is not "serving one kind"  (those were Tanith's words) would be preposterous. The hobby is large,  comprised of fans, professionals, different products, game shops, etc...  and there's no active attempt to prevent people from a specific race,  color, creed, gender to participate.




I'm gonna cross reference over here, and quote/repost myself a little, cuz it's relevant.

On Free RPG Day, I went and got a swag bag of modules, maps and gaming  supplements from my local gaming store.  It was also a good chance to check out the place, since I recently moved and hadn't had a chance to yet.  I just took the bag provided; I  did not add or subtract anything based on personal choice.  I think we  can call this a good selection of modern (specifically published for  yesterday's event) promotional material from RPG companies,  representative of what is out there on the market today.

My summary of all the images in all of that material is here.

Overall, do you think a woman looking at the contents of the Free  RPG Day swag bag will feel like she is entirely welcome or well represented as an actively  participating part of this subculture? 

It's certainly true that we have the ability to scan through all this  material, keep the good stuff and the neutral stuff and toss the creepy  stuff in the trash or just not buy it.  But the question is whether the  good stuff is good enough to outweigh the discomfort factor of having to  look through the not so good stuff to get there.

Because *we don't have a choice*.  Literally don't.  Any visit I make to a gaming store to pick up and browse through random RPG source material that I might be interested in has a really, really high percentage chance of including depictions that tell me women are not players or characters, they're cheesecake whose main role in the game is for the guys to enjoy.

If I spend enough time at the gaming store sorting through enough books, I will certainly find some that have pretty rockin' depictions of female characters that are cool and powerful and inspiring and totally work for me.  But guess what I gotta do in order to find that stuff.  I have to look through a lot of material that tells me that as a woman, I am not welcome and not represented in the hobby, at least not as an active participant.  I am not the target market, I am not the intended audience, and my gender doesn't exist in the game except as an NPC prop.  Or as cheesecake for the real gamers to rest their eyes on so the game is more fun for them.  Even if being cheesecake takes away from the depiction of the woman as a functional character as opposed to being strictly an ornamental prop.

And for some guys - not all, but definitely some - this carries over onto the gaming table, and I have a really, really bad experience.  Seriously, I love gaming.  But I game a lot less than I'd really like to, and not just because I'm busier.  I am generally not super eager to browse new material or to go to gaming stores, because I tend to have about as many bad experiences as good ones.  I am much more reluctant to play with gamers I don't already know personally.  I've just had too many bad experiences, and the cost-benefit ratio for me has dwindled to the point that I very rarely game at conventions any more.  It's not worth driving for hours, spending a ton of money, signing up for a game that looks good, then sitting down at a table to a really ugly experience that I have to walk away from.    Yes, I've been the target of "I'm totally gonna rape your character, does she have big boobs, is she naked, what is she wearing, huh huh" thing, too.  It makes the game No Fun, even if it is only supposed to be a joke.  

That kind of thing has happened too many times, and while it hasn't driven me entirely out of the hobby, it's definitely sent me to the fringes of it where I only game with my friends and rarely bother even looking at new material or talking to gamers I don't know, because, what's the point - chances are too good it will only result in facepalming and no fun for me.  

Oh, and gaming stores.  A copy of [ame="http://www.amazon.com/The-Slayers-Guide-Female-Gamers/dp/1903980488"]this book[/ame] was on display on the countertop in the store I went to for Free RPG Day.  I read through it after picking up my swag, because it was right there while I was waiting to check out.  It made me feel so thoroughly alienated, creeped out, objectified and insulted that I honestly never want to go back there.  I get that it's just one book out of hundreds in the store, but given that they chose to position it prominently on the front counter, it's pretty clear that they stand behind it and think it's normal, acceptable, true, useful or funny.  Or all of the above.  

I'm not really interested in censoring other people's views or their sense of humor.  They can publish that stuff if they want to; book banning is evil, even if you don't like the book's contents.  But if you go into a place and people are saying horrible things and making horrible jokes about your group, it is your right to never go back there because it is not a comfortable or welcoming environment for you.  I am exercising it, and I won't be returning to that store, ever.  

There's enough people in my personal social circle who are cooler than this, so I can still game.  Sometimes.  But the more I think about it, the more I have to admit that I am pretty much in the category of women who have been largely chased out of the hobby.


----------



## Consonant Dude (Jun 17, 2012)

Morrus said:


> 2) Those that do not feel that this is an issue are - in my opinion,  which is far from unique - part of the problem. We're talking about a  general culture which factually discourages female participation: our  hobby is dominated by white, heterosexual males.




Since this was in response to my post... I'm curious. Are you saying I'm "part of the problem"? Cause,  you don't even know me. 

It is not a fact that there is a general culture which discourages  female participation. I'm sorry, that's just your interpretation.  The  fact that a hobby, activity, pursuit is dominated by a segment of the  population does not factually proves that there is discouragement or discrimination at work. 



Morrus said:


> The percentage of  female members of our hobby is terrible low, and we hear time and time  again both here on EN World and elsewhere as to why that is.




I hear all the time why folks (whatver their) don't want to try roleplaying. And you know what they say?

They prefer doing something else.

It's really that simple for an overwhelming majority of folks, whether they are male or female. 

Since the dawn of the hobby, people have been asking why aren't there  more females, or why aren't there more roleplayers in general. 

Sometimes there really is no nefarious plot going on. Some people don't  want to sit around a table and pretend to be elves. And that's OK. 



Morrus said:


> Sure, it's better than it was. But that doesn't mean it can't be better.  And the day when the average gaming group actually represents the  diversity of our population is going to be a good day.




This quote explains better than anything why we see things differently. 

Equal opportunity and equal representation are two very different  concepts. Over and over again, your argumentation seems to boil down to a  lack of equal opportunity by pointing out to a lack of equal  representation. 

People shouldn't be discriminated against. Nothing should prevent you  from doing whatever it is you want to be doing. However, it doesn't mean  something's _automatically wrong_ because in some field, hobby, etc... the diversity does not map out with the demographic. 




Morrus said:


> the fact that people are actually willing to argue _against_  gender equality surprises me. Who wouldn't want to encourage half the  population to partipate in their hobby?




Who did that? I hope you're not referring to me. I never argued against  gender equality, never will. And I encourage anybody to participate in  the hobby, not just half the population. 

But see, that's the thing... some people will just prefer doing  something else. It's not that much of an issue. I have a few theories on  why things are this way (and it's certainly not gender-related IMO) but  that would be for another thread. 



Morrus said:


> When that half is telling us  repeatedly over a period of years that they feel excluded, who wouldn't  listen?




This half? What half? As I said, people not interested in this hobby  mostly say they'd rather do something else than sit around a table and  roleplay.

That's factual.


----------



## Elf Witch (Jun 17, 2012)

TanithT said:


> In the actual campaign material source images, where you are depicting female PC's and NPC's in order to flesh out character and world background, and they are fighting monsters and adventuring in hostile environments and otherwise doing the same exact stuff as the male adventurers?  They should be wearing pretty much the same equipment, too.  Because it's really, really stupid for them not to be.
> 
> The issue here is not "porn is bad", but "please don't make all the women in your world look like fashion plate bimbos who would be utterly incapable of defending themselves or of surviving the dungeon."  Lingerie and prom dresses have a really sucky armor class.  You wear them in the bedroom or the ballroom, not on the battlefield.
> 
> ...




Are you responding to something I said or is this just overall? Because it feels like you are preaching to the choir here.

If those woman are magic users they could well be dressed in flowing robes and no armor. There is nothing wrong with looking attractive and being dressed right for combat. I have played a sorcerer who was very powerful but liked pretty things and spent gold on the finest velvets and silks. But in combat she always had her protections up and she was not dressed like a bimbo getting ready to do a pole dance. 

I would like to say something here I have noticed a lot of woman saying that they don't wear make up and for RPGs they dress down and there is nothing wrong with that. My best friend and roomie does not. I don't I wear make up and I like to look pulled together. And there is nothing wrong with that either. Over the years I have met at cons some pretty militant anti make up woman who really look down on woman like me who enjoy wearing make up and fussing with their hair. Putting woman like us down for doing that is just as bad getting put down for those who don't. I take my gaming as serious as they do. I am just as much a geek even if I am a geek in lipstick. 

I don't think there is anything wrong with having art showing pretty people. What makes me roll my eyes is the peak a boo armor or the barely dressed magic user.


----------



## Stacie GmrGrl (Jun 17, 2012)

KDNash said:


> [MENTION=86279]Stacie GmrGrl[/MENTION]
> People giving you problems over that is just wrong. I know that I would never judge you for that, and I'd kick out any player of mine who would give you trouble. I don't know why GMs, or more generally, PEOPLE in general allow that sort of discrimination to fly.




Thank you. 

It's this society, it still has a ways to go. It's learning, and I dare say overall It's learning fast now, that there are people who are just different, with different views, and different orientations and desires.

I have no idea if this will have any bearing on this conversation but it's about the topic of gender, and how over the years I have witnessed gender discrimination, and an influence of it is the artwork... not the entire influence, because it's mainly our society and how people are educated that's the real problem... but it does play a part in influencing perceptions within a rpg,  and how others can respond to such influences.

Also...I love gaming, especially roleplaying games...have been playing and reading, mainly reading...since 90. I feel they can be a great source of inspiration and are very fun, and helpful for being a source of creativity and imagination. 

Regarding this hobby of ours, I have the unique perspective of being a woman who, whether it's unfortunate OR fortunate (which so far remains to be seen), was raised male, for that is the body I was born into. With this came expectations, influences, and assumed stereotypes from the many other people, who decided for me what I SHOULD be like. 

In gaming, I saw men, mainly heterosexual males, while claiming they wanted more women to play...these same guys had no social graces regarding women... these pictures that many women on here find sexist...those pictures, while art, did influence a lot of how my gamer associates at the time treated women, both in the game and what few decided to try to play...and many never came back after trying to play. This was very prevalent in the late 80s and through the 90s, and I have seen things change, to an extent... just during the last few years.

I am not saying all guys are like this...and I am not aiming anything I say at a single target or person. 

This society, while many strides twards gender equality have happened... This is a society where sex sells... and within this society we are quite bombarded from an early age what is 'supposedly acceptable in society' and what is not. Or what is expected, or not. In this society of sex sells, porn has been an influence of this. I love porn, for what it is. As a woman I think it's a wonderful outlet for fantasy and for adults...but I think it does alter a persons attitudes towards others...  if a person isn't fully aware they can watch it and take what they see and it can alter a persons view of others. It can cause people to objectify others, and it should not be brought into rpgs. 

The two, IMO, should not mix. But, as the Book of Erotic Fantasy was published... it did mix. To an extent. 

As a woman...I have seen guys at the table talk down to women, treat them like they don't know anything about gaming... tell a woman they don't know how to roleplay at all, or that their characters were doing stupid things because it wasn't what they would do... I have seen women leave this hobby because many guys just don't know how to act around women. They just don't. I am not saying all men are like this... but many were, and I am sure it still happens.

Now that I am a woman, I HAVE been on the receiving end of this behavior, but that could be also because I am a transsexual woman...and not very many people are educated in people who are gender different. So, currently I have received the double whammy of discrimination in this society... I have had my voice at the game table discounted for being a woman... but it's happened to me by both men and women. 

the last group I was in I only stayed for two sessions, because a guy called me "an It"...and the DM laughed. The other girl there defended me, and another guy then told her she didn't know anything. She quit to. She also stopped playing. 

I haven't actually played a tabletop game, at a table, in over a year because of it...and 
because of it I have debated leaving the hobby altogether. Any gaming I do is online, 
through Pbp.

I hope I didn't break any rules in this posting... I certainly meant no insult to men, because I have gamed with a few guys who were pretty cool and accepted women as gamers... seemed to be more accepted in White Wolf games than D&D. 

I rambled... thank you for reading, and hugs to all the beautiful people.      (was listening to Marilyn Manson at the time of this writing.   )


----------



## Elf Witch (Jun 17, 2012)

Consonant Dude said:


> This half? What half? As I said, people not interested in this hobby  mostly say they'd rather do something else than sit around a table and  roleplay.
> 
> That's factual.




Have you missed the people telling you about female gamers who have left the hobby because of dealing with misogynist behavior from fellow male gamers?

I have read on EnWorld guys who defend not allowing woman at their table because woman bring nothing but drama. I can totally get the idea that some guys view game time as a chance to be with the boys and that is fine. But when I read statements like female gamers disrupt the game because all the guys go goofy over them so I don't want then at my table. That tends to get my back up. Woman get excluded because guys act like goofy little boys is rather unfair.

The guide to female gamers is supposed to be funny and poke fun at the stereotypical female gamer. I remember when it came out and the guys I game with had a lot of fun teasing us woman about it. So we got together and did a little stereotypical male gamer book. But it made me wonder why this book was even necessary and where was the companion to it on dealing with male gamers like cat piss man or mouth breather man?

Woman gamers get stuck with all the same stereotyping as male gamers get plus the whole female stereotype as well. We can't really change how the outside world views gamers but it would be nice if in our hobby we didn't have to deal with some of this crap we deal with.


----------



## TanithT (Jun 17, 2012)

Consonant Dude said:


> This half? What half? As I said, people not interested in this hobby  mostly say they'd rather do something else than sit around a table and  roleplay.




Depends on the demographic.

Approach random women at the mall, or the library, or your school, and ask them about gaming, and you will tend to get the following responses.

"What's Pathfinder?  Is it an outdoor sport like geocaching?"

"Cthu who?  Do you need a Kleenex?"

Or maybe even, "D&D?  You mean, like that creepy guy on Big Bang Theory?  Eww."

Or once you explain gaming as interactive fantasy storytelling to the ones who have only a vague idea of what gaming is, you might get, "Sorry, that doesn't sound like my kind of thing."  And that's legit; mundanes aren't necessarily gamers or fantasy/sci-fi readers, because it's not everybody's cup of tea.

That's the typical mundane response.  I've never bothered talking about gaming or recruiting mundanes for games, because, why.  

I did spend a fair bit of time shilling for gamers to fill time slots in the non gaming areas of large conventions, and I got mostly two types of responses.  The most common from both men and women was, "Oh cool, but I'm doing a panel on storm trooper armor modeling/Harry Potter fandom/robotics/swordplay/WoW during that game, sorry."

Not the most common but definitely not an uncommon response from women was "I don't go in the gaming room."  Seriously, I heard a ton of that.  At DragonCon, there were women who said they took detours around the building, which is a lot of extra walking, so they would not have to go through the gaming area.  At most conventions it's not an issue, so DC was the only place I ever heard that.

None of the fannish women had any trouble knowing what I was talking about no matter which RPG I named.  They know the systems and the terminology perfectly well and I would guess that chances are decent that they've played them at least once, or read the books at least once.  They may even play at home, with their friends.  They definitely know the lingo.  But they won't go in the gaming room at a con.

I rarely had time to ask why they felt that way in any more depth when I was shilling to fill game slots.  So the only facts I can gather are a) a nontrivial number of fannish women refuse to set foot in the gaming area even when invited by another woman, and b) those same women are completely familiar with these games.  

I did get responses of "Naah, not my fandom, not a gamer, I'm just here for the filking/cosplay/anime/etc" from both men and women that I would characterize as fitting your neutral description. But the clear statements of literally not feeling comfortable entering the gaming area were pretty prevalent, and were solely from women.  Make of that what you will.


----------



## TanithT (Jun 17, 2012)

Elf Witch said:


> Are you responding to something I said or is this just overall? Because it feels like you are preaching to the choir here.




Sorry, I was directly addressing FableStreams, not you.  I should have made that more clear.  My apologies.




> If those woman are magic users they could well be dressed in flowing robes and no armor. There is nothing wrong with looking attractive and being dressed right for combat. I have played a sorcerer who was very powerful but liked pretty things and spent gold on the finest velvets and silks. But in combat she always had her protections up and she was not dressed like a bimbo getting ready to do a pole dance.




Like I said, if the character is at a fancy ball in a city, a pretty dress is totally sensible.   In the swamp while fighting dire goldfish or whatever, not so much.  Because, oy, the dry cleaning bill.  Do they have cantrips for that?

Or hell, if she wants to BE a pole dancer in her spare time, that's cool too.  And not stupid.  The trick is depicting the well rounded character AS a character, not just as OMGBEWBIES and nothing else.


----------



## Elf Witch (Jun 18, 2012)

TanithT said:


> Sorry, I was directly addressing FableStreams, not you.  I should have made that more clear.  My apologies.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thanks for clearing that up.

Prestidigitation is a magic user best friend it will clean you and your belongings up.


----------



## Morrus (Jun 18, 2012)

Consonant Dude said:


> Since this was in response to my post... I'm curious. Are you saying I'm "part of the problem"? Cause,  you don't even know me.




No. If I was saying "you are part of the problem" I'd have said "you are part of the problem". I responded to you because you asked me to.



> It is not a fact that there is a general culture which discourages  female participation. I'm sorry, that's just your interpretation.  The  fact that a hobby, activity, pursuit is dominated by a segment of the  population does not factually proves that there is discouragement or discrimination at work.




It's not my interpretation. It's what women are telling us in this very thread. So yes, I believe it to be a fact. I think it would be remarkably arrogant and dismissive of me to tell these women that the environment they perceive does not exist. It would, indeed, make me a douche of the highest order.



> I hear all the time why folks (whatver their) don't want to try roleplaying. And you know what they say?
> 
> They prefer doing something else.




Well, other than the women in this very thread who say otherwise. My position is that I will take them at face value. If you choose not to, you'll need to discuss that with them, not me; my position will remain one in which I believe what they're telling me about their own motivations.

I mean, how many stories do you have to hear, and how many women have to tell you that there is a problem with sexism before you'll believe them? Simply denying the problem exists is - well, at the very least - an unfortunate choice in my eyes.  You could discuss it with them, you could ask for more information, you do a thousand tags - but to simply deny that the problems they say are experiencing even exist is very, very unfair.



> Since the dawn of the hobby, people have been asking why aren't there  more females, or why aren't there more roleplayers in general.




Yes. Yes, they have. That's the whole point.

And the women are answering. To then ignore their answers in favour of your own theory is denial at the very least.



> Equal opportunity and equal representation are two very different  concepts. Over and over again, your argumentation seems to boil down to a  lack of equal opportunity by pointing out to a lack of equal  representation.




That would be incorrect. That is not my argument. My "argument" (and it's not really one) is very, very simple:  look at women are saying to you right now in this thread.



> Who did that? I hope you're not referring to me. I never argued against  gender equality, never will. And I encourage anybody to participate in  the hobby, not just half the population.




Again, when referring to you, I wil use the word "you" or perhaps your name; I will indicate  you in some manner. Allow me to assure you that replying _to _you does not mean I am talking _about _you.


----------



## pauljathome (Jun 18, 2012)

K. Amaloo said:


> If there are women gamers who don't have stories like the ones described in this thread, I haven't met them.




There definitely are some women gamers who don't have such stories. But the ones that I quickly canvassed play (or played) only at private games with friends (or friends of friends). 

I want to be absolutely explicit that I am in no way doubting your stories. I'm just hoping (and presently failing :-() to convince myself that the problem isn't quite as bad as you say. Because if it is as bad as you say then I'm thoroughly ashamed of both my hobby and of my gender :-(.


----------



## Tanstaafl_au (Jun 18, 2012)

Morrus said:


> Well, there can be no argument against someone telling you how something makes them feel. I guess you could - at a stretch - argue that they're lying, and that they don't feel the way they say they do - but that would be a pretty silly, and remarkably obnoxious thing to say!
> 
> If this discussion is to have any wings, it needs to take people at face value: if the women in this thread say that's how these things make them feel, then that's how these things make them feel. I believe them.
> 
> And thus my line of opinion: I would prefer it if our hobby didn't make them feel that way. I don't think that's a controversial position to take, and I fervently hope that the majority agrees with that position. I'll certainly continue to advocate for it.




I wholeheartedly agree.


----------



## Felon (Jun 18, 2012)

K. Amaloo said:


> Perhaps you would care to explain how those positions I mentioned (that is, positions explaining how objectifying women is perfectly all right) are entitled to the benefit of the doubt? Would you offer them the benefit of the doubt if they were, say, arguing that slavery is all right for those same reasons? Because I'll be blunt myself: I see no argument that can reasonably be made in favor of such a thing. Tolerance of opposing viewpoints is good and well, but tolerance of sexism, like racism, is a bad idea.



I notice that you and others were quick to respond that no female gamer you've ever met has had any problem whatsoever with violence, and I get the impression that didn't even strike any of you as a disparity. You ask if I would find slavery or racism deserving of the benefit of the doubt. Well, if it's in the context of a fantasy setting where mass slaughter is harmless entertainment, then how can anything be taboo? Why is cheesecake so much more intolerable than carnage? Objectify a person for purposes of running a sword through their guts = no biggie, but objectify a person for purposes of titillation = unacceptably dehumanizing?

Personally, I like to participate in sufficiently adult campaigns where the taking of life is not regarded as a light-hearted matter, and slavery and racism are present but handled in a tasteful way. And, yes, there are idealized, often beautiful people wearing outrageous outfits and fighting with impossible weapons. 



> If 'that product' happens to be the entire hobby, as was MY point, then you are essentially telling me not to buy any RPGs. I await any and all explanations of how this is reasonable and fine.



I'm stuck at the part where it's somehow reasonable to deem the entire hobby to be sexist. What is that *all* RPG publishers are doing that diminishes females? Or have we completely moved on from discussing products to gaming-table behavior? 

The various examples of piggish, cruel behavior at the gaming table evoke outrage and sympathy. Yeah, I want to wring those guys' necks. But are they representative of the entire hobby? When I previously stated that most gamers I've played with were selfish and peevish, you asserted that I had encountered what, in your opinion, constituted an inaccurate reflection of the whole.

Or are we talking more Tanith's lines about the depiction of women geared up in "unsensible" ways that wouldn't fly in the SCA? Not just naked flesh, but even wearing armor that accentuates their figure? Is sexuality inherently sexist? 

There's a notable difference between idealized male sexuality and idealized female sexuality. The physical traits that make a guy hunk in the conventional sense--namely, height and brawn--are also those that make for a more formidable fighter. The same isn't true of women. So what do you do to address sexism? Downplay idealized women? 



> I'm sorry you seem to be running into such a low class of gamer, and that you seem willing to pass judgement on gamers as a whole because of them. I'm not sure what it has to do with any of my points, however.



Everyone else in this thread, of which you are certainly no exception, have shared your personal experiences and used them as the basis of forming blanket opinions, so kindly spare me your remarks about how I've passed judgment on others. I haven't passed judgment on anyone I haven't met. I specifically referred to the context of my own personal experiences. 

Funny thing about anecdotal evidence. Everyone values their own highly, but it's far less valuable to others. Unless, of course, it serves to reinforce their own anecdotal evidence.


----------



## TanithT (Jun 18, 2012)

Consonant Dude said:


> It is not a fact that there is a general culture which discourages  female participation. I'm sorry, that's just your interpretation.  The  fact that a hobby, activity, pursuit is dominated by a segment of the  population does not factually proves that there is discouragement or discrimination at work.




You know what is really discouraging?

When multiple women say, "These are the things I have personally seen and experienced and felt.  They discouraged me from gaming.  I felt discriminated against."  And guys who are absolutely sure that _they_ aren't part of the problem, the ones who are claiming to be the good guys in our hobby, tell them that they're wrong. About their own experiences.  That there is no such thing as discouragement or discrimination in our hobby.  If women think there is, well, we're just mistaken.  Or lying.  

Except there's this.  Right here.  What you're doing.  

I'm not saying that no one is allowed to disagree with me, or to hold a different opinion than I do.  I have no problem with that.  I am saying that if you are trying to tell me, and several other women in this thread, that we are lying or mistaken about our own personal feelings and experiences in the hobby, something is going on here that is a bit beyond your stating your own experience or your opinion.  That something is pretty discouraging.  I don't know whether or not it's discrimination, but it kinda feels that way.  

I'm really not claiming anything here beyond my personal story.  There are no deep universal truths here, just that this is what it feels like to be me.  This is what I've experienced and what my perceptions are, as one gamer who is female.  That's all.  Your experiences and your perceptions and your opinion may be different, and that's okay.  I respect that.  *But you don't get to tell me that mine don't exist.  *


----------



## Stacie GmrGrl (Jun 18, 2012)

[MENTION=1]Morrus[/MENTION] 
I just want to say Thank you. You are wonderful and I appreciate what You are saying.


----------



## TanithT (Jun 18, 2012)

Felon said:


> You ask if I would find slavery or racism deserving of the benefit of the doubt. Well, if it's in the context of a fantasy setting where mass slaughter is harmless entertainment, then how can anything be taboo? Why is cheesecake so much more intolerable than carnage? Objectify a person for purposes of running a sword through their guts = no biggie, but objectify a person for purposes of titillation = unacceptably dehumanizing?




Depends on the group you're targeting.  I don't think that telling stories about elf on Orc violence is likely to push many people's hot buttons, but how about a historically accurate Huckleberry Finn/Tom Sawyer based RPG where one of the fun adventures your PC's could participate in was hunting down, whipping and collecting bounty on escaped Negro slaves?

Somehow I get the feeling that you'd run into a shortage of African-American players who wanted to game with you.  Because they're going to feel personally targeted by the depiction of their representational characters in the game, even though it's historically accurate.  Actually, _because_ it's historically accurate.  




> I'm stuck at the part where it's somehow reasonable to deem the entire hobby to be sexist. What is that *all* RPG publishers are doing that diminishes females?




I don't think anyone has yet claimed that the entire hobby *is* sexist.  It's not.  But I am telling the absolute truth when I say that if I pick up a random handful of RPG source material or sit down at a random open gaming table at a convention, in my experience, my chances of running into some pretty demoralizing stuff are high enough to make me uncomfortable.




> The various examples of piggish behavior at the gaming table evoke outrage and sympathy. But are they representative of the entire hobby?




In what sense?  Is it fair that it only takes one or two creepy, disrespectful guys at a gaming table to make a female gamer leave?  Is it 'representational' if it's only one out of the six other guys at the table who won't quit asking how big her character's boobs are and if he can roll to have sex with her?  By the numbers it's not, but she's leaving anyway, and she might not want to come back.




> Or are we talking more Tanith's lines about the depiction of women geared up in "unsensible" ways that wouldn't fly in the SCA? Not just naked flesh, but having breasts molded into their armor, having armor that accentuates their figure? Is sexuality inherently sexist?




The question you have to ask is why they're dressed that way, how many of them are dressed that way, and how the men next to them are dressed, and what message overall that's likely to send to a woman at your gaming table.




> There's a notable difference between idealized male sexuality and idealized female sexuality. The physical traits that make a guy hunk in the conventional sense--namely, height and brawn--are also those that make for a more formidable fighter. The same isn't true of women. So what do you do to address sexism? Downplay idealized women?




Sexism and sexual dimorphism are entirely different issues.  You address sexism by _not being sexist_.  What that means to you individually is going to vary, but I don't think it has to mean ignoring or downplaying the physical differences between the sexes.


----------



## TheShroud (Jun 18, 2012)

Elf Witch said:


> First of all could you please use the English language here and spell out words instead of text speakusing also paragraphs are your friend I found this nearly impossible to read.
> 
> The fact that you think it hunky dory that all RPGs have woman dressed in scanty clothes and that is okay is really an issue. A lot of us both men and woman have said we would rather see less cheesecake and beefcake and more art that really makes these people look like adventurers.
> 
> ...




First and foremost my apologies for the other day i was in a bit of a rush, wife and I were going to her father's Bday. 

Secondly I never said it was ok, all I said was that it happens, and to get mad at this product because they are doing it too is pointless.

Also though you may feel it is a negative out look and (I Don't put my value in it being right or wrong, but rather it just there). Though it may be hurtful to some women playing in the RPG world, this may also bring in some female players simply because it has more women involved in the game, heck the women being selected to be the characters are also going to be taught the system so that they can go to major events and act as DMs. 

What really hurts old fashioned Table top games is the stigma's we have recieved AKA Devil worshipping... and weirdos. (though that is a horrible thing to say about a group in general, it is said and believed by many to be truth. and honestly that is what hurts our numbers more than anything. I feel that as an RPG community instead of focusing on the negatives we should find ways of bringing a better light to table top games, ( i dont know maybe have a group of RPGers go to a hospital and teach sick children how to play.) or go out and help the community while promoting the idea that people can join and play games and also help others, maybe then people wouldnt assume there is something wrong with us as gamers (because there isn't). 

Again I never said it was ok that RPGs have skimpy clothes, all i stated is that it is there. 

I try not to waste my time on being mad about things I can't control and focus more on ways I can make it better.

In other words I don't complain about crap unless I can fix it. 

Again I aplogize for my prievious email being written in haste. Also I am tired and about to go to sleep. Sssoooo... if there is errors in here sorry for that too. Goodnight and I hope you have no random encounters while you sleep 

PS your right it is YOUR choice to not buy a product, but it is their choice to make it, and if you are not buying the product why waste your energy being mad at it. Why give them that power over you... 

PSS By talking about this product so much (though it appears to be negative), all you are doing is spreading their name out there. and in buisness more often than not bad publicity is better than no publicity.


----------



## Felon (Jun 18, 2012)

TanithT said:


> The question you have to ask is why they're dressed that way, how many of them are dressed that way, and how the men next to them are dressed, and what message overall that's likely to send to a woman at your gaming table.



To whom do I ask these questions? If I ask myself, the answer is just a reflection of my own disposition, not the originator's intents. Personally, I don't see a lot of cheesecake fetish women these days. What I see are characters that are drawn to look cool, depicted to look like badasses, and that often means *not* dressing in highly-protective but bulky and absurd-looking armor. Nobody fantasizes about being the person in the attack-dog chew-toy suit.

Let's take a notable fantasy icon: Xena. Is she cheesecake, or a strong female role model? The show ran long enough that anyone who followed the show probably doesn't think it's the former, but if all you had to go by was one picture, it would be easy to just roll your eyes.

And why does a fantasy character dress lightly? Well, maybe fantasy characters have defensive capabilities we don't. Xena wouldn't be better-suited to fighting thirty guys with plate armor than she would with her wire-fu. 



> Sexism and sexual dimorphism are entirely different issues.  You address sexism by _not being sexist_.  What that means to you individually is going to vary, but I don't think it has to mean ignoring or downplaying the physical differences between the sexes.



Thing is, Fablestream is saying they're not being sexist, and others aren't buying it. So, "address sexism by not being sexist" doesn't seem to do the trick. It's more like "address sexism by not being sexist in anyone's opinion". And that's not tenable, because then you have to cater to the hyper-sensitive.

That's the part of political correctness that drives reasonable people nuts.


----------



## Morrus (Jun 18, 2012)

Felon said:


> Well, Fablestream is saying they're not being sexist, and others aren't buying it. So, "address sexism by not being sexist" doesn't seem to do the trick. It's more like "address sexism by not being sexist in anyone's opinion".




Well, to be fair, _nobody_* admits to being sexist or racist. Most people will take offence at the very insinuation. 

In the end, all we can do is decide for ourselves whether we believe someone's words or actions to be sexist, and to stand up for what we believe to be right. This is a perception and an awareness issue.

And it's worth noting that the scope of this thread has drifted far beyond this particular example. We're now discussing sexism in the hobby in a general sense, which is an excellent discussion to have. Unfortunately, although we've been having it here on EN World for the better part of 10 years, it pretty much always goes the same way. Even going back to the Avalanche Press cheescake covers discussions nearly a decade ago, the conversation usually consists of women tellng us why they feel that way, and some men joining in to tell them that they're wrong. Eventually the women leave, because it's an unpleasant environment for them. I'm hoping threads like this will - eventually - result in an increased awareness of what these women are saying here, on their blogs, on other forums, and have been saying for years.

*Well, very few people.


----------



## Dire Bare (Jun 18, 2012)

TanithT said:


> Oh, and gaming stores.  A copy of this book was on display on the countertop in the store I went to for Free RPG Day.  I read through it after picking up my swag, because it was right there while I was waiting to check out.  It made me feel so thoroughly alienated, creeped out, objectified and insulted that I honestly never want to go back there.  I get that it's just one book out of hundreds in the store, but given that they chose to position it prominently on the front counter, it's pretty clear that they stand behind it and think it's normal, acceptable, true, useful or funny.  Or all of the above.




Ah, the "Slayer's Guide to Female Gamers" from Mongoose Publishing.  The company that amazes me they still exist.  They produced a lot of crap-quality products during the d20 glut, and just when I thought they couldn't get any worse with their releases this piece of trash was released.  It is a *PERFECT* example of the sexism in our hobby that so bothers Tanith and the other folks in this thread.  What's worse though, is that this book was published in 2002, 10 years ago, is out-of-print, yet was enshrined on the front counter of your "F"LGS?!?!  I would have, ah, said something to the manager.



Elf Witch said:


> The guide to female gamers is supposed to be funny and poke fun at the stereotypical female gamer. I remember when it came out and the guys I game with had a lot of fun teasing us woman about it. So we got together and did a little stereotypical male gamer book. But it made me wonder why this book was even necessary and where was the companion to it on dealing with male gamers like cat piss man or mouth breather man?




That book was not funny.  It was sad.  Or at least this guy gamer thinks so.


----------



## Felon (Jun 18, 2012)

That's more-or-less my point, Morrus. You can't just address sexism by not being sexist unless there's some arbiter whose authority is universally-accepted. There wasn't a series of bullet points for the Genesys guys to consult. Just that deceptive thing called "common sense". Common sense is basically the opposite of racism and sexism: it's a trait that everybody thinks they possess an ample supply of. And yet, people still manage to have extreme differences of opinion.


----------



## TanithT (Jun 18, 2012)

Felon said:


> Well, Fablestream is saying they're not being sexist, and others aren't buying it. So, "address sexism by not being sexist" doesn't seem to do the trick. It's more like "address sexism by not being sexist in anyone's opinion". And that's not tenable, because then you have to cater to the hyper-sensitive.




Good point.

In my way of thinking, if you're talking to a whole group of people and one or two of them say you're an ass, you can probably laugh that off, because there will always be some extremists who are hyper-sensitive.  It is not possible to please all of the people all of the time.

If you're talking to a whole group of people and an overwhelming number of them say you're being an ass, I do generally advise checking behind yourself for ears and a tail.


----------



## Morrus (Jun 18, 2012)

Felon said:


> That's more-or-less my point, Morrus. You can't just address sexism by not being sexist unless there's some arbiter whose authority is universally-accepted. There wasn't a series of bullet points for the Genesys guys to consult. Just that deceptive thing called "common sense". Common sense is basically the opposite of racism and sexism: it's a trait that everybody thinks they possess an ample supply of. And yet, people still manage to have extreme differences of opinion.




And yet, despite these difficulties, the world does manage to - slowly - make progress in many of these areas. So the conversation is worth having.  And the fact that some people have found the press releases by Genesys uncomfortable might (or might not) be information of use to them.

I'm under no illusion that we'll magically solve the world's ills right here. But discussing them is, I think, healthy.


----------



## Felon (Jun 18, 2012)

Do you really think I'm trying to abort discussion?



TanithT said:


> Good point.
> 
> In my way of thinking, if you're talking to a whole group of people and one or two of them say you're an ass, you can probably laugh that off, because there will always be some extremists who are hyper-sensitive.  It is not possible to please all of the people all of the time.
> 
> If you're talking to a whole group of people and an overwhelming number of them say you're being an ass, I do generally advise checking behind yourself for ears and a tail.



But what if everybody isn't calling you an ass? What if there are a range of opinions, even after you filter out the obligatory agitators and dimbulbs? Maybe at the end of the day, you gotta accept that even some reasonable people are gonna have their buttons pushed the wrong way, and your attempts to assuage their concerns are going to have limited effectiveness at best.


----------



## Morrus (Jun 18, 2012)

Felon said:


> Do you really think I'm trying to abort discussion?




No, you're clearly discussing.  Funny that; I'm not sure why I suddenly felt the need to justify the discussion.


----------



## TanithT (Jun 18, 2012)

Morrus said:


> We're now discussing sexism in the hobby in a general sense, which is an excellent discussion to have. Unfortunately, although we've been having it here on EN World for the better part of 10 years, it pretty much always goes the same way. Even going back to the Avalanche Press cheescake covers discussions nearly a decade ago, the conversation usually consists of women tellng us why they feel that way, and some men joining in to tell them that they're wrong. Eventually the women leave, because it's an unpleasant environment for them.




Somebody critted their spot check there, yepyep.

I do miss gaming, and there are times I miss it enough to poke my nose back in somewhere like ENWorld to chat with other gamers.  Or pick up some cool new stuff on Free RPG Day while checking out the local gaming store that I had some positive hopes for.

Then I get hit in the face again with how not welcome I am in the hobby.  When I politely say that some things can really make women gamers uncomfortable and would folks please consider how it feels to be one, I get told no, everything is just fine, there is really no such thing.  I must be wrong or lying or mistaken about my own experiences.  

Ya know, this is seriously No Fun for me.  It's just not.  I'm not sure it ever can be.  




> I'm hoping threads like this will - eventually - result in an increased awareness of what these women are saying here, on their blogs, on other forums, and have been saying for years.



You're trying, and I recognize and appreciate that.  Unfortunately, it isn't happening.


----------



## Kynn (Jun 18, 2012)

It's distressing to me that many men will claim there is no sexism at all in gaming, and in their attempts to "prove" it, they will resort to talking down to women, discounting their experiences, and glorifying displays of sexism.

It'd be amusingly ironic if only it weren't so sad and frustrating.


----------



## TanithT (Jun 18, 2012)

Dire Bare said:


> Ah, the "Slayer's Guide to Female Gamers" from Mongoose Publishing.  The company that amazes me they still exist.  They produced a lot of crap-quality products during the d20 glut, and just when I thought they couldn't get any worse with their releases this piece of trash was released.  It is a *PERFECT* example of the sexism in our hobby that so bothers Tanith and the other folks in this thread.  What's worse though, is that this book was published in 2002, 10 years ago, is out-of-print, yet was enshrined on the front counter of your "F"LGS?!?!  I would have, ah, said something to the manager.




Probably, but I was all out of patience for being told by guys that I was wrong or mistaken about sexism in the hobby, oversensitive, etc.  I just didn't see any point in arguing, so I left.  Given it was actually part of the display, I'm guessing it was the manager or owner who put it there in the first place.

They can do whatever they want in there.  It's their right.  It's my right to vote with my feet and not go back.  So much for my local gaming store.  

Gaming is supposed to be fun.  For everyone.  When it stops being fun, it's time to pick up your dice and go home.  It's mostly stopped being fun for me.


----------



## Elf Witch (Jun 18, 2012)

Felon said:


> I notice that you and others were quick to respond that no female gamer you've ever met has had any problem whatsoever with violence, and I get the impression that didn't even strike any of you as a disparity. You ask if I would find slavery or racism deserving of the benefit of the doubt. Well, if it's in the context of a fantasy setting where mass slaughter is harmless entertainment, then how can anything be taboo? Why is cheesecake so much more intolerable than carnage? Objectify a person for purposes of running a sword through their guts = no biggie, but objectify a person for purposes of titillation = unacceptably dehumanizing?
> 
> Personally, I like to participate in sufficiently adult campaigns where the taking of life is not regarded as a light-hearted matter, and slavery and racism are present but handled in a tasteful way. And, yes, there are idealized, often beautiful people wearing outrageous outfits and fighting with impossible weapons.
> 
> ...




I can't speak for the other woman but in the games I play in I play a hero the good guy who use violence to defend myself and innocents. I don't enjoy playing evil characters unless I am DMing and then I play evil hoping that the good PCs take them out.

I have played in games with slavery, racism and sexism but we were not supporting these themes as the PCs we were fight against them. 

That is very different than saying that violence is okay and sex is bad. Again not one of us as said sex is bad. A lot of us have said that in the right context cheesecake works like with succubi. But and this is something that I think is being ignored  when the male characters who play say wizards are dressed completely in robes  but the female wizards are dressed with a bra top and strip of clothing covering their private parts then the only reason is to turn the female into a sexual object. If both sexes only wore little strips of clothing then you are not singling just the woman out as the sex object. 

I don't know how many ways to keep saying this context matters as well as how the males are being dressed if everybody is nude that is different then if only the women are nude.


----------



## Felon (Jun 18, 2012)

TanithT said:


> Then I get hit in the face again with how not welcome I am in the hobby.  When I politely say that some things can really make women gamers uncomfortable and would folks please consider how it feels to be one, I get told no, everything is just fine, there is really no such thing.  I must be wrong or lying or mistaken about my own experiences.
> 
> Ya know, this is seriously No Fun for me.  It's just not.  I'm not sure it ever can be.
> 
> ...



As Morrus said, we started out talking about a product, and then we started incorporating a discussion of table behavior. The topics are related, but I hope it's understood that having an open mind towards a product is not a defense of scumbag behavior at the table. It certainly isn't a refutation of scumbag behavior.

I haven't followed the whole thread, but I've seen plenty of words of support and empathy. My heart out goes out to what folks like Stacie have experienced. I won't say something like "it made me feel ashamed to be part of the community", because despite being another white guy, I still have never felt truly like part of a community.

I also won't bother saying there's been progress at enlightening people, because there will also be stupid people who screw everything up for everyone else. But, I will say that thanks to the internet and sites like ENWorld, it's much easier to chat up and scope out people before you sit down with them.

Pick-up games suck IMO.


----------



## Morrus (Jun 18, 2012)

Felon said:


> . You ask if I would find slavery or racism deserving of the benefit of the doubt. Well, if it's in the context of a fantasy setting where mass slaughter is harmless entertainment, then how can anything be taboo? Why is cheesecake so much more intolerable than carnage? Objectify a person for purposes of running a sword through their guts = no biggie, but objectify a person for purposes of titillation = unacceptably dehumanizing?




I missed this post, so forgive me jumping back to it.

In my mind, the difference is that objectification, sexism, and racism are real issues that the players themselves may experience in everyday life.  Being stabbed with a sword in real life is, however, extremely unlikely.

It's that impressionable young players may take the wrong message from such scenes or imagery.  You'd have to be crazy to translate slaying an orc into real life, but it is perfectly reasonable to think that a player may be uncomfortable with depictions of issues they themselves actually experience.

That, in my mind, is why the two are different. I don't feel I've explained it well, unfortunately.



> I'm stuck at the part where it's somehow reasonable to deem the entire hobby to be sexist. What is that *all* RPG publishers are doing that diminishes females? Or have we completely moved on from discussing products to gaming-table behavior? .




If anyone has said "all RPG publishers" are doing this, I'll join you in vehement disagreement. The message I'm getting is "sexism exists in the hobby", not "every member of the hobby is sexist".  I don't think anyone in this thread would claim that there are no non-sexist publishers or gamers.


----------



## Elf Witch (Jun 18, 2012)

TheShroud said:


> First and foremost my apologies for the other day i was in a bit of a rush, wife and I were going to her father's Bday.
> 
> Secondly I never said it was ok, all I said was that it happens, and to get mad at this product because they are doing it too is pointless.
> 
> ...




I don't expect any post to be perfect. I make spelling areas and grammar errors all the time. But I have found that it is just easier to read a post if it is not a wall of text and if you are not dealing with text speak. 

I am not mad I am just sad that this is still an issue and it is not pointless to speak out about something. Speaking out and having discussion is one way change happens. If you don't speak out then you have no one but yourself to blame when change does not happen.

What if people like Martin Luther Ling or Marget Sanger or Susan B Anthony had your attitude that is is pointless to speak up.

My speaking up and telling this company I find their ad unacceptable and because of that they have lost me as a customer I am doing something maybe they won't care and maybe they will. 

What hurts table top gaming is the stereotyping.  Making hot vixens the new stereotype may bring in some woman but as you can see here it has turned off some of us and some men as well.


----------



## Consonant Dude (Jun 18, 2012)

TanithT said:


> You know what is really discouraging?
> 
> When multiple women say, "These are the things I have personally seen and experienced and felt.  They discouraged me from gaming.  I felt discriminated against."  And guys who are absolutely sure that _they_ aren't part of the problem, the ones who are claiming to be the good guys in our hobby, tell them that they're wrong. About their own experiences.  That there is no such thing as discouragement or discrimination in our hobby.  If women think there is, well, we're just mistaken.  Or lying.
> 
> ...




Wow. That sure looks like veiled suggestions that I am some kind of misogynistic prick. When did I ever say your experiences do not exist? Are you confusing me with someone else on this thread? 

I just got home, and I know there's a few messages I haven't had the time to respond to but I am aware some people have issues and bad experiences. I am not saying you or anyone else made anything up. 

My position remains: I do not buy for a second that the hobby as a whole is "not serving your kind", or actively discouraging females, or whatever other nonsensical exaggeration people have been throwing around. And I also don't buy that the ratio of female to male gamers means there is ample discouragement by the hobby as a whole. I think some of the assertions being made in this thread are divisive and shortsighted. 

That does not invalidate individual experiences (which I haven't had the time to respond to). It just means I like things should be addressed for what they are, without being linked together indiscriminately. 

I'd rather you stopped with the bold typing telling me not to do things I am not doing, please.


----------



## Felon (Jun 18, 2012)

Morrus said:


> I missed this post, so forgive me jumping back to it.
> 
> In my mind, the difference is that objectification, sexism, and racism are real issues that the players themselves may experience in everyday life.  Being stabbed with a sword in real life is, however, extremely unlikely.
> 
> ...



No no, that's a very valid distinction there. Good point. 

Note that, however, while the means of inflicting violence may be implausible in the real world, violence is hardly alien to modern life, and it can become a fetish in its own right. Indeed, I think the fundamental reason all these we're talking about are attracted to D&D is that it provides them with an outlet for violent fantasies and ugly behavior.



> If anyone has said "all RPG publishers" are doing this, I'll join you in vehement disagreement. The message I'm getting is "sexism exists in the hobby", not "every member of the hobby is sexist".  I don't think anyone in this thread would claim that there are no non-sexist publishers or gamers.



Well, maybe I missed the gist of what Amaloo was saying when she was talking about having to avoid the entire hobby if she wished to avoid consuming sexist products.


----------



## Kynn (Jun 18, 2012)

Consonant Dude said:


> My position remains: I do not buy for a second that the hobby as a whole is "not serving your kind", or actively discouraging females, or whatever other nonsensical exaggeration people have been throwing around.




If it _was_ true, and you were wrong about this, how would you know?  Would you be able to tell if your hobby was, in fact, as a whole, actively discouraging participation by women?

I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here; I'm not saying that you're sexist yourself, but that you may not notice sexism against women, which isn't directly aimed at you.

Having a blind spot doesn't make you a horrible person. But it might be good to listen to the large number of people who do think that sexism in gaming is a problem and that such claims aren't just "nonsensical exaggeration."

(And heck, let's go a step further: let's say you're RIGHT, and there's absolutely no sexism in gaming somehow -- but a lot of women and men feel that sexism in gaming is a problem. How can RPG gaming deal with that perception in a way that doesn't reinforce the idea that gaming is sexism, but instead show gaming's best side?)


----------



## Kynn (Jun 18, 2012)

Felon said:


> Well, maybe I missed the gist of what Amaloo was saying when she was talking about having to avoid the entire hobby if she wished to avoid consuming sexist products.




It's real hard to be a roleplayer these days and not find sexism (or racism, or heterosexism, or cissexism) in any given product. Some of that is endemic to the sexist society we live in, and many games are making progress compared to years ago.

You might have to only play indie games produced by women and guys sensitive to their male privilege to fully avoid sexism in the printed games. You may need to only game with trusted friends (and not at cons or game stores or meetup groups) if you want to avoid sexism from other players.

The hobby, as a whole, is rife with sexism. That doesn't mean every bit of the hobby is drenched in misogyny, but it does mean that it's present a whole lot of the time. And that's one of the barriers that prevents women (and some men) from enjoying gaming as much as the average male player.


----------



## Consonant Dude (Jun 18, 2012)

Kynn said:


> If it _was_ true, and you were wrong about  this, how would you know?  Would you be able to tell if your hobby was,  in fact, as a whole, actively discouraging participation by women?
> 
> I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here; I'm not saying  that you're sexist yourself, but that you may not notice sexism against  women, which isn't directly aimed at you.
> 
> Having a blind spot doesn't make you a horrible person. But it might be  good to listen to the large number of people who do think that sexism in  gaming is a problem and that such claims aren't just "nonsensical  exaggeration."




Here's the thing. I've been listening for over 30 years. I started  playing in 1980 when I was 9. I've asked hundreds of people to try out  roleplaying. Some did, some didn't. I've probably GMed with well over a  hundred female players, played with even more. Many of which I am or was  very close to. 

And I listen. My priority above anything else, including the game's  success is for the social experience to be pleasant for everyone.  Sure,  I'll dig adhering to genre, puzzle solving, system tweaking etc... but  really, I always say RPGs are games of imagination, they're a very  personal experience for the participant and I want everyone to be  comfortable with that. At the end of every session I GM there's 10  minutes allocated to discussions and feedback on what took place. I also  insist that my door is always open privately if something's wrong. 

I did tons of fine tuning thanks to that. Sometimes people didn't like  the system used, or wanted to try a new genre. Sometimes they thought  they didn't get enough game time in the session. Sometimes people just  didn't like the roleplaying experience and thought it was boring. 

But I can't remember one single instance of someone telling me: "I enjoy  roleplaying, but the depiction in the books are really getting in the  way of my fun". 

Gender issues we had usually came up when consulting for new campaigns.  Some genres and settings were too tricky and voted off before trying, or  right after chargen, or after a session or two (Off the top of my head,  Western and very recently, a 16th century japanese campaign. Our group  had concerns that these games might not be terribly fun in the long run.



Kynn said:


> (And heck, let's go a step further: let's say you're RIGHT, and there's  absolutely no sexism in gaming somehow -- but a lot of women and men  feel that sexism in gaming is a problem.




Hey wait a second! 

I have never claimed that there is absolutely no sexism in gaming.  There's sexism everywhere and that most certainly includes gaming. I've  read about it in books, I've seen it happen in sessions I was a part of,  mostly during teenage years. 

What I did say is that I do not subscribe to the notion that this hobby  as a whole is actively not serving "a kind". Especially not in this day  and age where there are so many awesome products to choose from in the  market. It's an extremely empowering hobby anyway. 




Kynn said:


> How can RPG gaming deal with  that perception in a way that doesn't reinforce the idea that gaming is  sexism, but instead show gaming's best side?)




It's a tough one to answer because in my own limited point of view,  based on anecdotal evidence, I haven't felt this was perceived very  often. Not by me, not by gamers I know, male or female. 

You have to remember my original objection had to do with how the  industry supposedly chases away scores of women because of how they are  depicted. And how this apparently explains why gamers as a demographic  don't match with the general population. 

On the industry side, I guess it's about more and more designers  appealing to these people who like roleplaying as a concept, but are  turned off, feel left out or downright antagonized. IME, people in  general (there are exceptions) like to play a character of the same  gender. So right off the bat, you need RPGs that allows the opportunity  to create main female characters that are interesting and can do  interesting things if you want to attract female gamers. 

Interestingly enough, IME among my players, that has surprisingly very  little to do with sexualization and a lot to do with kickass-o-meter.  They want to feel empowered, have an impact at the game level and in the  story. How they conceptualize their characters however, varies  tremendously.


----------



## Consonant Dude (Jun 18, 2012)

Kynn said:


> It's real hard to be a roleplayer these days and not find sexism (or racism, or heterosexism, or cissexism) in any given product. Some of that is endemic to the sexist society we live in, and many games are making progress compared to years ago.




You should try to track down a copy of Everway. 

It's my favorite roleplaying game of all times and it was published in the mid 90s. You might like it.


----------



## Elf Witch (Jun 18, 2012)

Consonant Dude said:


> Here's the thing. I've been listening for over 30 years. I started  playing in 1980 when I was 9. I've asked hundreds of people to try out  roleplaying. Some did, some didn't. I've probably GMed with well over a  hundred female players, played with even more. Many of which I am or was  very close to.
> 
> And I listen. My priority above anything else, including the game's  success is for the social experience to be pleasant for everyone.  Sure,  I'll dig adhering to genre, puzzle solving, system tweaking etc... but  really, I always say RPGs are games of imagination, they're a very  personal experience for the participant and I want everyone to be  comfortable with that. At the end of every session I GM there's 10  minutes allocated to discussions and feedback on what took place. I also  insist that my door is always open privately if something's wrong.
> 
> ...




It is also possible that they just didn't say anything even if they felt this way about the art.

I have been playing a long time and I never used to say anything. I felt that the guys would not get it or they would accuse me of being over sensitive or do what some of the guys have one over the years on threads on this subject which is argue why should they have to give up their cheese cake to accommodate me. 

The art alone has never made me want to quit gaming the attitude of male players made me leave DnD for most of the 80s and I played Hero games where the sexism didn't seem as bad. 

Sexism may not be rife but it still is here a few months ago when we were discussing art in DnD next the thread ended up getting locked, a female gamer who blogs left EnWorld over how she was treated she blogged about it. I got a private message from a male gamer who actually said any of the men standing up for the women are only doing it to score brownie points because they hope to get laid. And that woman don't really belong in gaming and we should stop trying to force our way in where we don't belong. 

I have a friend who has a male sounding name she emailed a DM who was looking for players and they agreed to meet. When he saw she was a woman he told her no that woman were not welcome at his table because his group were serious players and didn't want women  who come looking for boy friends.  My friend is a very serious gamer and since she is married to a non gamer she was only looking for a game not a mate. This did not happen back  in the 80s this happened last year.

You sound like a good DM who makes the game fun for all your players so maybe you have not seen this kind of behavior or would not tolerate it at your table. 

I play with a lot of great guys and it is better than it was in the past but it is still can raise its ugly head.


----------



## Consonant Dude (Jun 18, 2012)

TanithT said:


> Overall, do you think a woman looking at the contents of the Free  RPG  Day swag bag will feel like she is entirely welcome or well represented  as an actively  participating part of this subculture?




I don't even know that *I* would feel welcome in the hobby 

It's certainly not a very exciting selection of products as far as I'm concerned but I tend to be picky when it comes to RPGs. 

I do know about Harn and have to speak about this. Harn is a special case because it so ferociously goes for a historical middle age vibe with dashes of Middle-Earth. It's very well done but very... limiting. HarnWorld is realistic enough that it will be boring to most people. HarnMaster (the system) is also vying for realism. The result of both is that they are unwelcoming to fantasy adventuring and, unfortunately, about as unwelcoming to female adventurers as the middle-age would be. 

I wouldn't subject any players of mine through it as is. I do mine it for ideas, though. But as a rule of thumb, many historical products or those leaning toward a historical vibe will be awful for female players. 

Because I have mixed groups, I tend to focus on fantasy, superheroes and sci-fi because the possibilities are a lot more interesting for everyone. Harn is kinda like the antithesis of that. 

Now, I read the rest of the entries and there was a lot of crap. But as far as unrealistic armors and the like, it's not an issue with the female gamers I know. What is an issue is whether they can kick ass or not. The amount of skin they want to show is up to them. Having a variety of useful, empowering archetypes usable by female characters is what it's all about for my players. 







TanithT said:


> And for some guys - not all, but definitely some - this carries over  onto the gaming table, and I have a really, really bad experience.   Seriously, I love gaming.  But I game a lot less than I'd really like  to, and not just because I'm busier.  I am generally not super eager to  browse new material or to go to gaming stores, because I tend to have  about as many bad experiences as good ones.  I am much more reluctant to  play with gamers I don't already know personally.  I've just had too  many bad experiences, and the cost-benefit ratio for me has dwindled to  the point that I very rarely game at conventions any more.  It's not  worth driving for hours, spending a ton of money, signing up for a game  that looks good, then sitting down at a table to a really ugly  experience that I have to walk away from.    Yes, I've been the target  of "I'm totally gonna rape your character, does she have big boobs, is  she naked, what is she wearing, huh huh" thing, too.  It makes the game  No Fun, even if it is only supposed to be a joke.




Conventions creep me out, and I'm a guy. 

As for the rape thing... that's horrible. This should totally not fly with the other players around the table and even less so with the organizers. You should never, ever be bullied or feel like crap when the goal is to have fun. 



TanithT said:


> There's enough people in my personal social circle who are cooler than  this, so I can still game.  Sometimes.  But the more I think about it,  the more I have to admit that I am pretty much in the category of women  who have been largely chased out of the hobby.




It's your hobby as much as anyone else's. You've got your friends, you've got your imagination. You can extend that network easily. And if you feel there is currently a void in the market, a lack of certain products that might attract a certain audience... try your hand at it! Lots of people publish or release material for free. And if it works out, the niche you fill may expand so much it won't even be called a niche anymore. 

I have no idea why women are not more representative in the hobby (sorry, I know we disagree on that) and even less so why they aren't getting involved more into publishing and designing. That's where the real power is and in this day and age, it's doable with the most limited resources.


----------



## TheShroud (Jun 18, 2012)

Elf Witch said:


> I don't expect any post to be perfect. I make spelling areas and grammar errors all the time. But I have found that it is just easier to read a post if it is not a wall of text and if you are not dealing with text speak.
> 
> I am not mad I am just sad that this is still an issue and it is not pointless to speak out about something. Speaking out and having discussion is one way change happens. If you don't speak out then you have no one but yourself to blame when change does not happen.
> 
> ...





You say you have felt sexism from playing RPGs, and I ask this question( because i need a better understanding of where it is coming from) was it the books, or game, or the people you played with? Because honestly, I have played with many women who loved RPGs and never once got mad at the art work, but if someone said something wrong which some men do. They would feel uncommfortable. And when that happens the problem needs to be addressed right then. 

If its the books, if when you open it up and the pictures are uncommfortably graphic, tell the DM/GM i dont feel comfortable playing this, IF he is a good friend, player, or GM he wont have an issue with finding a different game style. 

Sexism is out there, but it doesnt mean you have to be uncomfortable you have the power as a person to say I want nothing to do with this, and walk away from a particular RPG or situation. 

(about the art work...and I know I am stepping on egg shells) Women and men have differences in appearance. The males physical body is ugly, I've had this convo with a a man who is into men, other guys who are into women, and women into men. And every single one of them agreed that a women's body is more beautiful. Though i feel this is often (and sadly) missued, it is the main way that company's are able to describe these women(not justifying it or saying I am ok with it. Just that no one has found a better way.)

(my attitude) my attitude is not "it is pointless to speak up", it is actually complete opposite. As I described its I do something when I have something to do. If you dont have a solution why are you wasting energy complaining (complsining does not equal to speaking up or out)? that energy you are wasting could be used to come up with a better solution. All I am saying is if you don't like it, and it is broken, then dont complain. Complaining solves nothing, what solves problems are people putting there heads together and designing a new way.

I love hearing issues and problems, and I am all for speaking out, but what I like to hear after a complaint is... "i was thinking and I believe this might make it better...." I try not to let my anger be the only thing I bring to a situation.  Complaints don't work in life, they don't work in relationships, they don't work when school work is late.  But what does work is having an answer.

I care about sexism, I am a husband and a father to 2 girls who will one day be women in this harsh world. But I plan on teaching them "my attitude" (see above paragraph) I want them to change things not complain that it is unfair. 

Change comes from more than just words or an idea, it comes from our actions and desires to make something better.

Again this is only my opinion/view i dont expect or think everyone should agree. Heck that is why we are all different.  So if u have been offended i apologize.


----------



## Morrus (Jun 18, 2012)

Consonant Dude said:


> You have to remember my original objection had to do with how the industry supposedly chases away scores of women because of how they are depicted. And how this apparently explains why gamers as a demographic don't match with the general population.




I think I see the disconnect.

Elf Witch and others haven't been saying (and they can correct me if I'm way off base here) "the art drove me away". They're saying "sexism in the hobby, of which art is but one example, makes me feel less wanted here". They're also citing skeevy male gamers, bad convention experiences, inappropriate descriptive terms of them, and so on. 

In the case of Genysys, it's not really the art; there isn't much to speak of yet. It's phrases like "There's nothing sexier than a hot gamer chick who knows how to throw it down and keep up with the boys". Ignoring the question of what_ is_ "keeping up with the boys", exactly, it carries an implication that it is difficult for a woman to to do so, that it is sexy when you find one that can, and that "keeping up with the boys" is a goal to be lauded. And that's problematic not just because of the words themselves, but because it is revealing of how some men _see_ the women in our hobby. It's a display of an attitude which goes beyond that mere phrase - it says that it's a "boys'" game.

I probably overwrought that paragraph a bit.


----------



## TheShroud (Jun 18, 2012)

Morrus said:


> I think I see the disconnect.
> 
> Elf Witch and others haven't been saying (and they can correct me if I'm way off base here) "the art drove me away". They're saying "sexism in the hobby, of which art is but one example, makes me feel less wanted here". They're also citing skeevy male gamers, bad convention experiences, inappropriate descriptive terms of them, and so on.
> 
> ...




With that being said i can see what u are saying better. And agree that it is wrong for themto promote the game in that way. But it is in our hands to find away to make our RPG world better place. Whether its changing the whole, or handling our games in a better way.. Thank you for clarrifying


----------



## TanithT (Jun 18, 2012)

Felon said:


> But what if everybody isn't calling you an ass?




It doesn't have to be everybody.  If, say, your company puts out a press release and the overwhelming response is pretty negative, it's probably time to rethink the language you're using to sell the concept.




> What if there are a range of opinions, even after you filter out the obligatory agitators and dimbulbs? Maybe at the end of the day, you gotta accept that even some reasonable people are gonna have their buttons pushed the wrong way, and your attempts to assuage their concerns are going to have limited effectiveness at best.




Depends on what you think a 'range' is.  If the issue is women feeling discriminated against or discouraged because they perceive that the hobby positions them as cheesecake and devalues their character representation, and a huge percentage - so far, 100% of the women in this thread who don't work for the company in question - are saying this very clearly, I'm not sure this represents a 'range' even if there is some division in the group that isn't being targeted.


----------



## Morrus (Jun 18, 2012)

TheShroud said:


> Sexism is out there, but it doesnt mean you have to be uncomfortable you have the power as a person to say I want nothing to do with this, and walk away from a particular RPG or situation.




They _have_ been walking away, as they've repeatedly said in this thread. That's called "being driven away", which is exactly the thing people are saying they don't want to be. 

I can understand that. I don't want to be driven away from games, either.

They want to _play_ these games, not have to walk away from them. That's not so unreasonable, is it?



> (my attitude) my attitude is not "it is pointless to speak up", it is actually complete opposite. As I described its I do something when I have something to do. If you dont have a solution why are you wasting energy complaining (complsining does not equal to speaking up or out)? that energy you are wasting could be used to come up with a better solution. All I am saying is if you don't like it, and it is broken, then dont complain. Complaining solves nothing, what solves problems are people putting there heads together and designing a new way.




And they have designed a solution; they keep suggesting it. It's a really simple, easy one: not being sexist. 

Honestly, it ain't that hard. Sure, everyone slips up from time to time, but just being more cognizant of the effect one's language and manner have on other people can make a world of difference. In the long run, it all just comes down to respect.


----------



## TanithT (Jun 18, 2012)

TheShroud said:


> You say you have felt sexism from playing RPGs, and I ask this question( because i need a better understanding of where it is coming from) was it the books, or game, or the people you played with?




It's a subtle gestalt, though some of the pieces of the gestalt aren't subtle at all.  It's the overall gaming environment, which definitely does include how female characters are portrayed in the art and the storyline of the campaign.  The attitude at the gaming table of the individual players and their expectations of women, both as character depictions in the game and as fellow gamers around the table.  Their language when talking about women, again both inside and outside the game.  

Different people are going to have different levels of tolerance for some of these things, and maybe even all of these things.  But if the overall gestalt of the gaming environment adds up to consistently depicting, treating and talking about women in ways that many of them may consider disempowering or condescending, it's going to have an effect on the hobby.  




> If its the books, if when you open it up and the pictures are uncommfortably graphic, tell the DM/GM i dont feel comfortable playing this, IF he is a good friend, player, or GM he wont have an issue with finding a different game style.




I don't personally have a problem with explicit.  I do have a problem with disempowered and inappropriately sexualized.  Porn is cool, but if you take a picture that is supposed to depict fighting on the battlefield, or a representation of the clothes and gear an adventurer wears into the dungeon and make that into porn, you're no longer showing that character as an effective character.  At least, not as an adventuring character.  Also, you're showing that she's stupid. Because, fighting monsters with no pants on.




> Sexism is out there, but it doesnt mean you have to be uncomfortable you have the power as a person to say I want nothing to do with this, and walk away from a particular RPG or situation.




Yes, I do.  And I did.  The price I have personally paid for this is to mostly not game.  It's a high price, but the cost of being consistently disappointed and having more bad experiences than good ones has added up for me to be even higher.  Your mileage may vary; this has been mine.  




> (about the art work...and I know I am stepping on egg shells) Women and men have differences in appearance. The males physical body is ugly, I've had this convo with a a man who is into men, other guys who are into women, and women into men. And every single one of them agreed that a women's body is more beautiful.




The modern media bombards us constantly with how women = beautiful and male physicality isn't so much emphasized.  If you were to take a wayback machine to one of many other societies - the Roman Empire comes to mind first - I guarantee that you'd be saying the exact same thing with the genders reversed.

I find nothing of merit in the female form to look at, personally.  It's boring to me.  No appeal, and weird shapes. Not my thing.  It doesn't upset me, but it does absolutely nothing for me.  Male beauty in all its forms, however....amazingly esthetic.  I like.  Not just as porn, but to look at in general, because it's easy on my eyes in a way the female form is definitely not.  




> Though i feel this is often (and sadly) missued, it is the main way that company's are able to describe these women(not justifying it or saying I am ok with it. Just that no one has found a better way.)




So they describe female characters as going adventuring with no pants on, or in a miniskirt and a bra?  As the main way to communicate what?  That these characters are stupid?  That they don't get the same adventuring gear as the men?  That they're so different from the men that they can't be adventurers?  That they exist only to be cheesecake for the men to look at?  Because those things are being communicated pretty effectively.




> Complaining solves nothing, what solves problems are people putting there heads together and designing a new way. ...  I love hearing issues and problems, and I am all for speaking out, but  what I like to hear after a complaint is... "i was thinking and I  believe this might make it better...."




Once again, it sounds an awful lot like you're saying that Rosa Parks, Susan B. Anthony and Gandhi solved nothing because they spoke out to tell people that there was a problem with the way things were.  

Yes, constructive thoughts are good.  I think I've offered some, and mostly they boil down to other gamers *just being aware* of how the environment of this hobby may feel to us.  And listening to us when we say, "Hey, this thing makes me feel uncomfortable."  

There is no all purpose final fix for the problem.  There just isn't.  There isn't one inside of our hobby and there definitely isn't one for mainstream society.  The only thing I can really accomplish is to clearly communicate how it feels to be me, and to ask that other gamers simply *be aware* of how some things about the hobby can be perceived and felt by people who aren't heterosexual males.  That's all.

It's not really a good thing that a nontrivial number of the convention going fannish/SCA/anime women I talk to literally will not set foot in the gaming area and say that they feel really uncomfortable around gaming and gamers.  If pressed, some will say things like "creepy" and "it's a boy's club and I don't feel like I belong in there."  

I don't know whether many of you were even aware of this or not.  This is not just the casual social stereotype of "gamers = icky nerds" operating here, because I'm already talking to con-going female nerds, some of whom are (or were) gamers themselves.  

Yes, there are certainly female gamers at conventions who are willing to step into the boy's club and play, because the game is just that cool.  But if you spent some time canvassing them and asking them about their experiences, you might just hear a few things that would make your toes curl.  Yes, we can ignore that stuff up to a point, but that doesn't mean it's fun to pay that price of admission.  And past a certain point, you're going to lose the ones who say it's just not worth paying any more.  




> Change comes from more than just words or an idea, it comes from our actions and desires to make something better.




I think it comes first from people understanding why change is even needed.  

I don't have any single solution to the issue.  All I hope to accomplish is to give other gamers a perspective on what it feels like to be me, a female gamer.  I don't claim that my experiences represent all women, because they don't.  Humanity is pretty diverse, and people are not just alike.  But it's one perspective from a point of view and a set of experiences that maybe you don't personally have, and it's a starting point.  

If you find yourself trying to invalidate or silence someone else's personal experiences and feelings because they are not the same as yours, it might be time to ask yourself why that's necessary rather than just sharing your own experiences and opinions.  And more importantly, what you may be contributing to the environment by doing this thing.


----------



## Consonant Dude (Jun 18, 2012)

Morrus said:


> I think I see the disconnect.
> 
> Elf Witch and others haven't been saying (and they can correct me if I'm  way off base here) "the art drove me away". They're saying "sexism in  the hobby, of which art is but one example, makes me feel less wanted  here". They're also citing skeevy male gamers, bad convention  experiences, inappropriate descriptive terms of them, and so on.




Yeah, there's some ugly stuff. I personally avoid most conventions and find gamers through my own network of friends, relatives, coworkers, etc... 




Morrus said:


> In the case of Genysys, it's not really the art; there isn't much to  speak of yet. It's phrases like "There's nothing sexier than a hot gamer  chick who knows how to throw it down and keep up with the boys".  Ignoring the question of what_ is_ "keeping up with the boys",  exactly, it carries an implication that it is difficult for a woman to  to do so, that it is sexy when you find one that can, and that "keeping  up with the boys" is a goal to be lauded. And that's problematic not  just because of the words themselves, but because it is revealing of how  some men _see_ the women in our hobby. It's a display of an  attitude which goes beyond that mere phrase - it says that it's a  "boys'" game.




So, many years ago, I had the chance to meet a person with amazing skills and a passion for cooking. I learned a lot. And nowadays I make it a mission to really entertain my guests. 

I couldn't tell you how many times women have said that there's "nothing sexier than a guy who can cook as well a woman" but it happened many times. I don't take it as an insult. I don't think I should. I take it to mean that in a culture where it seems cooking with care and love is mostly done by women, seeing men applying themselves and sharing that passion is cool. 

If you're outside the norm, the demographic, you may stand out. Now, if people treat you like crap, or discourage you, or ostracize you they're being asses. But they may notice and let you know it's appealing and refreshing. I'm fine with that, personally


----------



## Morrus (Jun 18, 2012)

Consonant Dude said:


> I couldn't tell you how many times women have said that there's "nothing sexier than a guy who can cook as well a woman" but it happened many times. I don't take it as an insult. I don't think I should.




So I'm not sure I understand this, or that I'm getting from it what you mean me to.  More specifically, I don't think that's a valid analogy.  Here's why:

The extrapolation (by reverting the words back to the subject at hand) is "nothing sexier than a woman who can game as well a man"  I'm very uncomfortable with that. That implies to me that (a) men game better than women; (b) it is a man's game; and (c) those women who can game as well as a man should be characterized as "sexy".

I agree with none of those three things. I'd also submit that a women referring to a man's cooking in that matter is not the same thing, because men, traditionally, are not the targets of sexism. It's similar to how racism arguments need to account for the history and culture in which the targets of such comments find themselves and the way those comments echo across society.*

*That is far too poetic; I hope my meaning comes across. I struggled to describe my thoughts.


----------



## Stacie GmrGrl (Jun 18, 2012)

Consonant Dude said:


> Yeah, there's some ugly stuff. I personally avoid most conventions and find gamers through my own network of friends, relatives, coworkers, etc...
> 
> So, many years ago, I had the chance to meet a person with amazing skills and a passion for cooking. I learned a lot. And nowadays I make it a mission to really entertain my guests.
> 
> ...




You seen like an okay guy, I would like to be a player in one of your games.  

Above there was mention of male and female bodies... it's just a matter of preferences, with a influence of media bombardment, but I have seen people of both sexes with what could be considered good looking bodies, especially when I watched wrestling back in the days of when I had cable.

But a persons real beauty, to me, comes from the spark from within them.  It's just what I feel. I have met women with rocking bodies who were just, can't say that word and they were ugly to me. Attitude and self love is beauty to me. But, on a purely physical level, I do find women more beautiful than men.


----------



## Stacie GmrGrl (Jun 18, 2012)

Morrus said:


> So I'm not sure I understand this, or that I'm getting from it what you mean me to.  More specifically, I don't think that's a valid analogy.  Here's why:
> 
> The extrapolation (by reverting the words back to the subject at hand) is "nothing sexier than a woman who can game as well a man"  I'm very uncomfortable with that. That implies to me that (a) men game better than women; (b) it is a man's game; and (c) those women who can game as well as a man should be characterized as "sexy".
> 
> ...




I think what's "sexy" to a person is as subjective and individual as, well, almost anything else to be honest, and that's how it should be. There is no overall standard of what is "sexy" and what is not, despite societies attempts to convince us otherwise.

Maybe to some men any female gamer is sexy, simply because she is actually a gamer and is willing to talk gamer and throw dice and willing to play make believe with him... who knows. To some women, a man who can cook is sexy, simple as that. To some, the female form is boring, to others the make form is ugly. That's just how it is.

And if something is sexy, doesn't always less to sexism... that's more a form of discrimination and just a lack of social graces, IMO. Can art be an influence,  sure, to some... to others it's just a picture. That's how art is to me. Just a picture. I take no offense to art itself. 

What I take offense to are the people who willingly treat others negatively because they are inconsiderate and too opinionated to learn how to be social around others, and decide to treat a certain kind of person with disrespect and they think they are right. 

I don't have the same reaction to some art that others have for those similar reasons... I just like it to make sense within the context in which it's presented within the source material.  To me, seeing a girl almost naked in the snow isn't so much sexist, to me... it's just dumb. But if another person says they feel it's sexist, than it is, and don't try to convince them otherwise. 

More specifically at Dude's comment about the cooking, I think he was trying to just express something he was told by women, and it came across as harmless to me. I don't think he was implying what you might have implied from it. 

Maybe he just finds female gamers who play pretend and throw dice sexy. Who knows.


----------



## Felon (Jun 18, 2012)

TanithT said:


> It doesn't have to be everybody.  If, say, your company puts out a press release and the overwhelming response is pretty negative, it's probably time to rethink the language you're using to sell the concept.
> 
> Depends on what you think a 'range' is.  If the issue is women feeling discriminated against or discouraged because they perceive that the hobby positions them as cheesecake and devalues their character representation, and a huge percentage - so far, 100% of the women in this thread who don't work for the company in question - are saying this very clearly, I'm not sure this represents a 'range' even if there is some division in the group that isn't being targeted.



Well, all feedback should be considered. However, I don't like what happens with things like the new Tomb Raider game. It shows how people can overreact and cry "sexism" and "misogyny" when they really don't have more than snatches of detail to work from.


----------



## TanithT (Jun 18, 2012)

Oops - accidental deletion by a mod who hit edit and not quote.  Might as well delete it the rest of the way since what's left didn't make a ton of sense out of context.  No biggie.


----------



## Stacie GmrGrl (Jun 18, 2012)

Felon said:


> Well, all feedback should be considered. However, I don't like what happens with things like the new Tomb Raider game. It shows how people can overreact and cry "sexism" and "misogyny" when they really don't have more than snatches of detail to work from.




What about the new Tomb Raider? Spill details if you can please.


----------



## Felon (Jun 18, 2012)

TanithT said:


> I don't know.  The storylines I write may include some extremely grimdark scenarios, not because I'm a for-real violent person or a serial killer, but because I enjoy the genre and some very compelling stories can be told in it.  I have depicted some incredibly ugly behaviors and cultures in my campaign worlds, not because I am glorifying the ugly behavior, but because the tension and conflict it creates is a vivid backdrop for good storytelling.  If given a choice between a sparkly unicorns and flowers setting, or even a peaceful, prosperous kingdom type setting, and a really horrific grimdark setting, I'll go with grimdark every time.  There's just better stories to be told there.  Or at least stories that personally challenge and interest me more as a writer, a GM and a player.
> 
> Do you think Stephen King is a horrible person?  Or that Robert Bloch is a psycho killer?  Naaah.  Unlikely.



When discussing fantasy material, at some point there's an inclination to say something like "the important thing is to separate fantasy from reality". But people come to role-play specifically to escape from reality and blur that distinction. Certain types of behavior are okay because they're part of the grim, gritty, dark-agey feel. If a guy's playing some cutthroat killer, why would he mind his manners around anyone? While at that table, he's some Westeros pastiche that thinks a woman is a wench and only good for a couple of things. 

That's a vehicle for desensitized behavior you don't get when reading a horror novel. 



> It's not that I expect anyone else to not share their completely different experience or perspective or opinion.  I respect that - everyone is different, and everyone has the right to disagree with the conclusions you draw from your experiences.  But there's a difference between disagreeing about facts and conclusions and telling someone they're simply wrong for feeling differently.  Or that what they feel does not exist.
> 
> That actually registers as a pretty serious red flag to me, and one that says I don't have the right to say how something personally affects me.  That's a problem, guys.  Because the response isn't just a factual disagreement or a different perspective.  Whether or not it is the intent to convey, the message I get goes something like this.
> 
> ...



It's saddening that you feel that this thread has run in such an oppressive direction, because it seems dismissive of all of the fair and supportive comments that have been the constant. Who's telling you to stop expressing yourself, even implicitly? Who's denying you your feelings? Most of the posts I see have your back, and none of them are trying to shut down the discussion. If I'm wrong, show me. By all means, talk to us.


----------



## Felon (Jun 18, 2012)

Stacie GmrGrl said:


> What about the new Tomb Raider? Spill details if you can please.



Let me see if I can show a couple of trailers from two different upcoming video games. They have been decried using words like "sexist", "misogynistic", and "disempowering". I'm interested to hear if people here draw parallels and/or distinctions between them:

The first is from the upcoming Tomb Raider prequel. 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ol_-QGlwRqc]Tomb Raider - E3 2012 Exclusive Crossroads Trailer - YouTube[/ame]



The second is a trailer for Hitman: Absolutions. 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXs5v-t9NwI]Hitman Absolution - Attack of the Saints Trailer [North America] - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## CleverNickName (Jun 18, 2012)

Just wanted to pop in here and say that my girlfriend and I are following this thread with interest.  The portrayal of women in society has long been a boilerplate for her, as the portrayal of gamers in society has been for me. 

Did any ENWorlders attend this event?  We are hoping to hear first-hand from someone who attended.


----------



## Consonant Dude (Jun 18, 2012)

Morrus said:


> So I'm not sure I understand this, or that I'm  getting from it what you mean me to.  More specifically, I don't think  that's a valid analogy.  Here's why:
> 
> The extrapolation (by reverting the words back to the subject at hand)  is "nothing sexier than a woman who can game as well a man"  I'm very  uncomfortable with that. That implies to me that (a) men game better  than women; (b) it is a man's game; and (c) those women who can game as  well as a man should be characterized as "sexy".
> 
> I agree with none of those three things.




Hmm, I guess it could sound this way but that's not how I perceived it when it happened to me (with the cooking and when I got involved in the cat fancy world). If you share a passion and you're a positive person, I think you naturally want as many people as possible to understand it and perhaps, get interested in it (without preaching and becoming annoying).  

And sometimes, the demographic makes it look like: This activity, or hobby, or pursuit, or career... is the province of <code>[insert a color, gender, sexual orientation combination]</code>. And that's just not true. Some people are just glad when the stereotype barrier is broken, I think. I personally find it inspiring and attractive to see people pursuing dreams goals and passions. And it's even more refreshing when it falls outside of the demographic you expect. And when it's about my passions, I do not like to be part of some hermetic, homogenous club. I welcome diversity 




Morrus said:


> I agree with none of those three things. I'd also submit that a women  referring to a man's cooking in that matter is not the same thing,  because men, traditionally, are not the targets of sexism. It's similar  to how racism arguments need to account for the history and culture in  which the targets of such comments find themselves and the way those  comments echo across society.*
> 
> *That is far too poetic; I hope my meaning comes across. I struggled to describe my thoughts.




I live in the here and now and see the two situations in a similar light. I hate discrimination but my radar doesn't go off in either case. It's possible that I'm not aware of the impact of history or something.


----------



## Elf Witch (Jun 18, 2012)

TheShroud said:


> You say you have felt sexism from playing RPGs, and I ask this question( because i need a better understanding of where it is coming from) was it the books, or game, or the people you played with? Because honestly, I have played with many women who loved RPGs and never once got mad at the art work, but if someone said something wrong which some men do. They would feel uncommfortable. And when that happens the problem needs to be addressed right then.
> 
> If its the books, if when you open it up and the pictures are uncommfortably graphic, tell the DM/GM i dont feel comfortable playing this, IF he is a good friend, player, or GM he wont have an issue with finding a different game style.
> 
> ...




I have felt it in the game , books and minis. Though as I have said it is slowly getting better. I mentioned already the crap I took in the game from overt creepiness to sexism like I am putting a cap of a 10 on strength for all female characters and cap of 12 on wisdom as well because woman are usually not as wise as men and look to them for guidance. 

My first wizard I played the DM proudly provided me with a mini that had been beautifully painted. The mini had long flowing hair with a staff with a crystal ball on top and her one arm was out like she was casting a spell. She was also topless wearing just a belly dancer style bottom. I don't think the DM was trying to be a jerk. Semi nudity was common in the art work of this time. I don't think he or the rest of the guys grasped how very uncomfortable this made me.  

I am way older now and I have learned how to let art like this in RPGs roll off my back and I would never tolerate the stuff I put up when I was a teen and young adult. I have learned how to handle creepy guys and sexist guys. But I still roll my eyes at this kind of art and I will speak out about it when the subject comes up.

I am not going to change systems over one or two pieces of art. But I don't have to like it. It is a very complicated issue. As a feminist of long standing I see that the way woman are portrayed in media is not healthy for the self esteem of young woman. We are bombarded with how we are supposed to look even when it is imposable for the majority of us. Young girls today are having plastic surgery at younger ages, twenty two year olds are having botox because they fear aging.  

The mistake a woman can make is to wrap her self esteem up in how she looks. I am 54 I am seeing this with my friends. My one friend was a beauty queen when she was younger every where she went every man in the place had eyes on her. Now at 54 she even though she is still attractive this is not happening it is happening to her daughter and she had admitted she resents her for it. She has said she feels worthless that her life is over. Even though she has a great career a great family the fact that her beauty is fading is devastating to her. 

I think it is healthier for woman to have not just images of beautiful hot woman but woman who look pulled together but look like them. I think gaming can be a wonderful tool for young girls to expand their imagination to get out there and have power and be heroes so  while I am not saying make the art work unattractive but don't make it sexy which gives the message even when you are fighting to save the world you must look sexy to do it. 

So many young woman today dress in a very sexual way and they feel it is their body they should be allowed to show it off. And in a way they are right. But what they don't understand is that men are very visually stimulated by the way woman look. And if you dress in a way that send those signals when that is not your intention it makes it harder for them to separate that from say the non sexual message you are trying to send. There is a time and a place for it.  At a club looking to meet guys is one thing in the board room trying to come across as professional is another thing all together. 

In the art work you can still make the woman look good without making them look stupid.  You realize that these woman look stupid and laughable come on goes into a fight with a dragon in high heels.  There are a lot of woman who refuse to be sensible when it matters and dress in just a totally inappropriate way for the situation. Every year at the Dade County Youth Fair the paramedics get called out to treat woman who have broken bones or sprained ankles because they are trying to walk around on cracked pavement and climb on rides in high heels. 

I shake my head when I see this woman and I wonder what their IQ is. I wear high heels but not to places like that. And it is not like you can't find pretty flats. 

Like I pointed out earlier woman in the military don't dress like vixens even if they are wearing a skirt and they don't wear stiletto heels either while on duty. In combat zones they wear the same uniform and boots as the guys. I think adventures should be the same.

I do have a solution how about pick realistic looking gaming woman as well as vixens. Save the cheesecake art for the characters that are supposed to be sexual like succubi or evil priestess of the god of lust. And make the woman match the men if men who wear full plate don't have peek a boo cuts then don't dress the woman in fill armor the with them. If male wizards don't run around in skimpy clothes don't make the female wizard do so. 

Speaking out writing letters to gaming companies is not complaining it is trying to do something to effect change. The men and woman speaking up here I think have sent a message to this company that not all of us liked their ad. I don't know if it will make a difference to them but I know for a fact that not saying anything certainly wouldn't have let them know that some of us found it highly sexist.


----------



## nnms (Jun 18, 2012)

TanithT said:


> Yes, that was pretty cool.  It doesn't change the fact that if I walk into a store and pick random gaming material, I'm going to spend a lot of time being reminded that I am not the intended market here.  And facepalming.




Can it be okay to not be the intended market for a product?  I'm not the intended market for a lot of things and if I stumble upon something that's not for me, I put it back down and look at something else.



> Quite often the price of admission to sit at the gaming table with the guys includes my silence or complicity about things that make me feel bad. If I don't pretend it's okay, if I say, "Hey, this makes me feel bad - just thought you'd like to know," there are significant social penalties. They argue, they tell me to stop complaining, they tell me I am hypersensitive or a prude. I'm not one of the guys any more. I have set myself apart, and the atmosphere changes for the worse.




Don't think this just happens because it's a gender issue.  Lots of people identify strongly with a given aesthetic or body of media.  You'd experience a similar (but lesser) reaction if you expressed your dislike for something else the rest of the people at the table liked.  But it's not just expressing dislike that you're talking about.  You're accusing the other people around you of being immoral for liking it-- that's how they see it anyway.  That probably contributes the most to any escalation from friendly disagreement to alienation.

It's human nature to ostracize a moral critic.  Especially in our time where any form of appearing judgmental is a socially acceptable target for alienation or ostracism.  *People participate in their hobbies for enjoyment, not to be judged.*

No one should be surprised or shocked when they say that something someone else likes is harmful that the reaction is less than friendly.



> Let's say I ignore that and go on to sit at a gaming table. Out of five or six guys there, there's a decent chance that at least one of them is going to send me that same message. Maybe it'll be subtle, in the language he uses to refer to me or to other females, and maybe it won't be so subtle.




If you are trying to find subtle proof of anything in the way people express themselves, you'll find the evidence you want to see.  I would hate to spend my time looking for opportunities to be offended by messages I perceive others as sending.


----------



## Kynn (Jun 18, 2012)

I gotta bail from this thread. A lot of you guys here are making me feel less welcome in gaming, and I've been doing this most of my life.


----------



## Consonant Dude (Jun 18, 2012)

Morrus said:


> Well, other than the women in this very thread who say otherwise. My position is that I will take them at face value. If you choose not to, you'll need to discuss that with them, not me; my position will remain one in which I believe what they're telling me about their own motivations.
> 
> I mean, how many stories do you have to hear, and how many women have to tell you that there is a problem with sexism before you'll believe them? Simply denying the problem exists is - well, at the very least - an unfortunate choice in my eyes.  You could discuss it with them, you could ask for more information, you do a thousand tags - but to simply deny that the problems they say are experiencing even exist is very, very unfair.
> 
> ...




I apologize for answering late to this one (still catching up).

To clarify, it's not my own theory. I'm just relating what I'm hearing from my own roleplaying network. That doesn't invalidate what the gamers here have been saying, not at all. But just like I am taking into consideration what these people are saying, I also have to rely on what other females are telling me. Some of them close friends, relatives, people I have loved and known for decades. Some of them gamers, some of them former gamers and some of them who never got interested.

I have no explanation as to why the ratio of females in the hobby is what it is. I'm pretty sure there are a lot of factors at work. 

The females I know who won't game just tell me they'd rather do something else, like going to salsa night. (where the creep factor seems to be pretty freaking high based on their stories).

I am definitely listening to what the female gamers on this thread have to say, though. It's an interesting discussion!


----------



## Consonant Dude (Jun 18, 2012)

Kynn said:


> I gotta bail from this thread. A lot of you guys here are making me feel less welcome in gaming, and I've been doing this most of my life.




Well, I hope it wasn't something I said. If so, please feel free to write here or by PM so that I can better explain. It is not my intention to make anyone feel unwelcome in gaming, quite the contrary. 

I can only say that it's been enlightening for me to revisit this subject. It helps me to read about others' perspective. And if you'd rather not discuss it, that's fine too. But I hope you'll happily continue to game!


----------



## Consonant Dude (Jun 18, 2012)

Stacie GmrGrl said:


> You seen like an okay guy, I would like to be a player in one of your games.




You would be more than welcome should you ever come to Montreal! 

I usually run games in my native language, though. I did run a mini-campaign in Shakespeare's tongue in Toronto and a bilingual campaign once so I'm rusty but willing 

Barring that, maybe one day I'll try gaming online if I find a group!


----------



## TanithT (Jun 18, 2012)

nnms said:


> Can it be okay to not be the intended market for a product?  I'm not the intended market for a lot of things and if I stumble upon something that's not for me, I put it back down and look at something else.




Sure.  The 'unwelcome' factor goes up a lot when you're being depicted *as* the product, though.  




> But it's not just expressing dislike that you're talking about.  You're accusing the other people around you of being immoral for liking it-- that's how they see it anyway.




If I was expressing it in a manner that could possibly be construed that way, yes, it certainly could.  Given that I am personally very vocal about being pro porn, pro sex industry, and pro alternative sexuality/gender expression, it's going to be a very far stretch for anyone to get the idea that I think they are immoral for any type of sexuality they want to express.  Apparently they've been managing it though, because they can't think of any other reason that someone could possibly object to cheesecake in an RPG.

The actual issue is very far from a 'moral' one, though I imagine some folks on either side of the gender gap might get them conflated.




> *People participate in their hobbies for enjoyment, not to be judged.*




Yes.  Exactly.  I am not in this hobby to be judged by my boobage, and it is No Fun when my characters are depicted as if that's all they are there for.

So what happens when the way you enjoy your hobby actively detracts from my comfort and enjoyment, and we're in the same hobby?


----------



## Morrus (Jun 18, 2012)

Kynn said:


> I gotta bail from this thread. A lot of you guys here are making me feel less welcome in gaming, and I've been doing this most of my life.




I urge you to reconsider. You have the right to stand up and speak your piece. Abd if the only advocate for this cause ends up being me - a white British man - then the whole exercise is rendered pointless.

I appreciate that there are very few women speaking up here. And that there are almost no men expressing support for your side of this, and several strenuously denying that the problem even exists. And that's a damn shame.

But if *I* end up being the lone voice, then it's useless. I have no validity here.


----------



## nnms (Jun 18, 2012)

TanithT said:


> If I was expressing it in a manner that could possibly be construed that way, yes, it certainly could.




I don't see how you could not.  If someone likes X and you say X is harmful, you've done so.  And people will get their backs up and friendly disagreement turns into alienation.



> The actual issue is very far from a 'moral' one, though I imagine some folks on either side of the gender gap might get them conflated.




I'm trying to let you know why people you are talking about are reacting to you the way they are.

They are perceiving your objections as moralizing.  Even if they are not.



> So what happens when the way you enjoy your hobby actively detracts from my comfort and enjoyment, and we're in the same hobby?




I'm sure the cases where you've spoken up and the rest of the table suddenly felt their comfort and enjoyment was detracted from didn't give you the warmest reception for the rest of the session.

What I do know is that if you are in a group and the rest of the people like something and you claim it's harmful or that it gives you emotional distress, what you are communicating to the other people is that their liking it is somehow wrong or inappropriate.  They are going to close ranks and place the moral critic on the outside.

You described suddenly feeling alienated and whatnot.

That's why.

As I said before, people don't do their hobbies to be judged.  You don't like it when you or your characters are judged a certain way.  So why would you expect anyone to like it when you turn the judgement around on them by making statements that intimate that there is something wrong with how they are doing things or what they like?

Are you in the right?  Sure.  Do group dynamics care about that?  Nope.


----------



## Lwaxy (Jun 18, 2012)

I have found out that part of the denial is that men, don't want  realities of life including sexism to intrude into their gaming fun. So  both not saying things guys "always will say" as I have been told, and  acknowledging that some of the behaviors are sexist won't do. Only way  is to pretend there is no sexism in any given group. 

to be fair, that can go both ways. I was in an all female group once and  you won't believe some of the things that were said about men. It's  like normal "chick talk" taken to the 9th degree. OK, so lots of it was  venting frustration about male gamers but still.

As for myself, I luckily was never driven away from gaming but once, and that was mainly because the GM was a jerk not related to sexism. I usually fit in with the guys well enough, as I'm not "girly" whatever that exactly is. But I had it happen that I ended up being the only woman left at the table because the others were uncomfortable with some of the jokes. Which I usually only learned long after they were gone.


----------



## Morrus (Jun 18, 2012)

Consonant Dude said:


> Hmm, I guess it could sound this way but that's not how I perceived it when it happened to me.




Of course you didn't perceive it that way. I don't know anything about you, but I'm guessing you're not part of a group that is discriminated against. 

A good test is to replace some words. Replace gender with an ethnic minority. Heck, say "You're eloquent for a black man" and you'll see just how offensive it can be.

Being a white male is a lucky position of non-discrimination. Of course we won't be sensitive to these things. Why would we be?

If you can honestly say "you game well for a woman" doesn't bother you, I'll be surprised.


----------



## nnms (Jun 18, 2012)

Morrus said:


> I appreciate that there are very few women speaking up here. And that there are almost no men expressing support for your side of this, and several strenuously denying that the problem even exists. And that's a damn shame.




I think the main reason that most men don't rally to such positions is that the approach of feminism has largely excluded them in most of their experiences with it in their lives.  Many men see feminism as the idea that you can solve issues affecting two genders by concentrating on one of them.  So the typical guy, who may support a given side, is unlikely to comment in the thread because they already think it's not their place.

So who's left?  The ones who want to close ranks against perceived moralizing and handful of others who are interested in gender issues.



> But if *I* end up being the lone voice, then it's useless. I have no validity here.




Nonsense.  Your Y chromosome has no impact on the validity of your positions and observations.

Stop apologizing for your birth.  You probably have more ability to affect change in the gaming community than most thanks to your ability to bring news and editorials about the issues to EnWorld.


----------



## TanithT (Jun 19, 2012)

nnms said:


> I don't see how you could not.  If someone likes X and you say X is harmful, you've done so.  And people will get their backs up and friendly disagreement turns into alienation.




I don't think that porn of any flavor is intrinsically harmful at all.  It's great, actually.  You should enjoy as much of it as you want with other consenting adults.  

When you take porn outside the happy context of being sexual with other consenting adults, and you put it in places where it can cause social issues and involve people who either aren't adults or don't consent or both, that's not so good.  If either part of the 'consenting adults' element is absent when you're trying to be sexual, it's a problem.  

This doesn't translate to 'sex is bad." This translates to 'sex is for consenting adults to enjoy'.  Sexuality with consenting adults = good.  Sexuality that negatively impacts people who are not consenting or not adults = bad.  





> I'm trying to let you know why people you are talking about are reacting to you the way they are.
> 
> They are perceiving your objections as moralizing.  Even if they are not.




You have good points about the social dynamic, thank you.  However, I'm not sure how to address this type of deficiency in other people's understanding of what I'm saying.


----------



## Greatwyrm (Jun 19, 2012)

Morrus said:


> Being a white male is a lucky position of non-discrimination. Of course we won't be sensitive to these things. Why would we be?




Being a white guy isn't always what it's cracked up to be.  Once upon a time, I was told my hiring for a previous employer was delayed by six months because someone higher up the food chain couldn't understand why I'd want to do "women's work".  When I was in a room with thirty women at another training session and I won the door prize, there was a collectively held breath while the 250 pound good ol' boy went up to (cheerfully and graciously) collect his gift bag of potpourri, flower notepad, and a scented candle.  Not to mention the endless stream of "men suck because...", "hunky movie star", and "ladies' issues" discussions that always ended with sidelong glances and my assurances they wouldn't be included in a sexual harassment lawsuit.

Just because I use the other bathroom doesn't mean I don't get it.


----------



## nnms (Jun 19, 2012)

TanithT said:


> When you take porn outside the happy context of being sexual with other consenting adults, and you put it in places where it can cause social issues and involve people who either aren't adults or don't consent or both, that's not so good.  If either part of the 'consenting adults' element is absent when you're trying to be sexual, it's a problem.




You don't see claiming that something that someone likes in their fantasy art is pornographic and that they are participating in exposing it to non-consenting adults or to minors might just be a bit inflammatory?  That they might perceive that as you attacking something they like and responding to you as an outside moral critic?



> You have good points about the social dynamic, thank you.  However, I'm not sure how to address this type of deficiency in other people's understanding of what I'm saying.




Now I think they probably get what you are trying to communicate quite clearly and just don't like it.  If I was running a game and you started talking about how the rulebook for the game (or perhaps the GM screen?) is an example of spreading pornography to minors, I'd tell you that we can talk about it outside of the game session.  If you persisted, I'd ask you to leave the table and stop accusing the people playing of being criminals.

Up until the last post, I was willing to accept that you weren't moralizing, but now, I'm not so sure.

Fantasy art as exposing minors to pornography?  Just wow.  No wonder other gamers you've interacted with have gotten up in arms when you start talking about this issue.  You're accusing them of a serious crime.


----------



## Consonant Dude (Jun 19, 2012)

Morrus said:


> Of course you didn't perceive it that way. I don't  know anything about you, but I'm guessing you're not part of a group  that is discriminated against.




I am but that's irrelevant. 



Morrus said:


> A good test is to replace some words. Replace gender with an ethnic  minority. Heck, say "You're eloquent for a black man" and you'll see  just how offensive it can be.




Yeah, that sounds... terrible, I agree. But that's not because you replaced a gender with an ethnic background, IMO.

Saying "hey, you're pretty smart for a woman" would lead to just as much facepalming. And that's gender-related.

However, consider how many people pointed out how great it was to see an African American in the oval office. Rightly so, IMO. 

Nobody should be surprised that a black man can be well-spoken or a woman smart. Those who are have issues and usually bear negative feelings and thoughts (even repressed). 

However, people can be genuinely glad to see someone pursuing a dream, career, hobby that doesn't fall into the usual stereotyped demographic and that doesn't immediately scream of discrimination or condescension to me. It can be quite the other way around!

I'm not discarding how you see it or how other people are seeing it but I don't think that's a given that most people will interpret it this way. At least I hope so. I think a lot of it has to do with intent, context and the genuine message behind, not just the words. 

If it's about embracing diversity and celebrating individual empowerment, I'm cool with it


----------



## Lwaxy (Jun 19, 2012)

nnms said:


> You don't see claiming that something that someone likes in their fantasy art is pornographic and that they are participating in exposing it to non-consenting adults or to minors might just be a bit inflammatory?
> 
> Fantasy art as exposing minors to pornography?





I had 4 parents not give consent to their kids playing because some of the books have such soft porno artwork, even if there were only a few pieces. One mother of another kid plain out said that she'd not ever want her son take part in an activity that portrays women as sex objects. I had to explain to her how art in fantasy changes and that I don't use such pictures or that we rather make fun of them. 

Every child that looks through our book collection will inevitably find some of those pictures. Sure, it is not worse than what you see in every place they sell magazines. But I do think it is worse in the context of it being a game which is, in itself, rather kid friendly.


----------



## Elf Witch (Jun 19, 2012)

nnms said:


> Can it be okay to not be the intended market for a product?  I'm not the intended market for a lot of things and if I stumble upon something that's not for me, I put it back down and look at something else.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I had to get up and walk away from my computer after reading this because I was really angry. Because what you are saying is that woman are not the intended target to buy or play RPGs. That if we don't like how the woman are portrayed we should put it down and walk away. And people wonder why woman walk away from gaming,

I don't expect a magazine like Playboy or Maxim to cater to be but I had thought we had gotten past the idea that RPGs are only for the boys. 

She has not once nor have the rest of us accused any male gamer of being immoral for liking cheesecake. What we have complained about is the sexist and rude and creepy behavior at some tables. Did you over look the posts where she said for example she was fine with porn she just doesn't want in her gaming art?

I get what you are saying which is basically shut up how dare you speak out about something that  you find bothers you about your hobby.


----------



## Consonant Dude (Jun 19, 2012)

Elf Witch said:


> It is also possible that they just didn't say anything even if they felt this way about the art.
> 
> I have been playing a long time and I never used to say anything. I felt that the guys would not get it or they would accuse me of being over sensitive or do what some of the guys have one over the years on threads on this subject which is argue why should they have to give up their cheese cake to accommodate me.




I read this last night and decided to sleep on it and think about it. That's a good point, you know. 

There are certainly female gamers that are too close to me (relatives, close friends, people I love dearly) and that I have known for too long not to perceive this. 

But there are plenty others I have gamed with, or who weren't interested in gaming, who might be too shy to express discomfort. 



Elf Witch said:


> You sound like a good DM who makes the game fun for all your players so  maybe you have not seen this kind of behavior or would not tolerate it  at your table.




There were a few incidents, I would say especially as a teenager. There was one major disgusting and prolonged issue when the original Dragonlance modules were released. This was the 80s, we were all teenagers and it had been decided we would go through the entire campaign. 

Now, if you're not familiar with the modules, it's a long series (I think over a dozen module) and it encourages a LARGE CAST of player characters. It wasn't our usual small group of friends. We had to fish elsewhere. We had two DMs co-running it and something like 10 players.

It wasn't about a bunch of friends anymore. There was bullying and then in-game sexual innuendos and harassment. There was peer pressure and some of this impacted high school (many of us attended the same school where there were arguements). So many ugly things happened. Until one of the older kids put a stop to it and the campaign imploded. 

I was relieved it ended but so disgusted I stopped gaming for a year or two. Then I figured out I didn't have to game with asses. And I could walk away. So I tried a few different groups, hooked up again with old players and started slowly getting back into it.

But I learned an important lesson: if you wouldn't be comfortable hanging around these people in other situations than gaming, it's just not worth it. All of a sudden, "Let's invite the rude creepy dude because the party really needs a cleric" didn't fly anymore. 

It's very important to have boundaries and express them.


----------



## Elf Witch (Jun 19, 2012)

I have a question for the guys who seem to feel that cheesecake is important to them in RPGs. I am wondering just how important it is? If there is no cheesecake would refuse to buy the book? If there is no cheesecake will you stop playing the game and leave the hobby?

The reason I am asking this is because if you would stay in the hobby without the cheesecake and the cheesecake art is the that important to you then why object so strenuously about female gamers wanting it out and wanting more realistic art in the books?

I don't understand it. Is it because you are angry at having to share the hobby with woman is it that you feel we are judging you for liking it?

I see nothing wrong with men liking cheesecake. I enjoy beefcake. And I can find it in magazines, the internet and in books. We are sexual beings and we enjoy looking at things that arouse us. But there is a time and a place for that. Why is it important to have sexually arousing art when you game? 

I find it kind of creepy if I was at gaming table and another player was getting aroused. 

Not one woman here as told you that it is wrong to like chesecake. What we have said is that we would prefer for the art in the books not show woman in a sexual way when that is not the purpose of the character.  s really to much to ask that female fighters have on armor that does not look stupid or for woman to dress like the men. If the men run around in loin clothes then it is acceptable for the woman to do so as well. It is like the difference between National Geographic showing woman of primitive tribes being topless and Playboy.


----------



## fenriswolf456 (Jun 19, 2012)

Morrus said:


> I urge you to reconsider. You have the right to stand up and speak your piece. Abd if the only advocate for this cause ends up being me - a white British man - then the whole exercise is rendered pointless.
> 
> I appreciate that there are very few women speaking up here. And that there are almost no men expressing support for your side of this, and several strenuously denying that the problem even exists. And that's a damn shame.
> 
> But if *I* end up being the lone voice, then it's useless. I have no validity here.




Yours won't be the only voice, though I'm not sure how much more I could add, coming in late to the discussion, other than offering support.

And more than likely I would have stayed silent, because in truth I have little direct experience with the issues. I'm coming up on 30 years of gaming, but for virtually all that time, my groups have been my friends and colleagues. Most have been male, but I have gamed with a few female players as well. As such, I like to believe that we all treated each other with a healthy level of respect and fairness.

But I can't say that I was totally unaffected. In my youth, there were times that I'd present a female character in inappropriate dress (mostly as GM, but I'm sure as a player as well). In my mind, being kick-ass was awesome, and sexy was awesome, and so with hormonal math playing a sexy ass-kicker was doubly awesome. Partly this was influenced by art (not necessarily of the games themselves, but also in general), and by my own imagination. I never intended to objectify, and at the time, didn't even think along those lines. It just seemed 'cool' to me.

I like to think I've matured, and that I am more socially aware now. 

It does pain me to hear stories of maginalization and objectionable behaviour, especially in a hobby that I so enjoy. I just think back to all the fun adventures and stories told, and the time spent with friends, and find it is such a shame that such was denied to so many others due to the attitudes of others.


----------



## Elf Witch (Jun 19, 2012)

Consonant Dude said:


> I read this last night and decided to sleep on it and think about it. That's a good point, you know.
> 
> There are certainly female gamers that are too close to me (relatives, close friends, people I love dearly) and that I have known for too long not to perceive this.
> 
> ...




Woman are not Borg so this issue may not be something that bothers all of them. And that is okay.

I now have a rule don't play with jerks and a no a bad day of gaming is not better than no gaming. 

I am finding it kind of sad that a female gamer has left this thread I hope she does not leave EnWorld like the other female gamer did a few months ago. I understand where she is coming from. There have been some discouraging posts in this thread and the sexism thread it is enough to make you want to just give up. Me I am to stubborn for that.  

But I am also encouraged by the guys who have understood and the guys who are trying to understand. I put you in the category of trying to understand. You are asking intelligent questions and not outright dismissing what we are saying.


----------



## Morrus (Jun 19, 2012)

Consonant Dude said:


> I am but that's irrelevant.
> 
> Yeah, that sounds... terrible, I agree. But that's not because you replaced a gender with an ethnic background, IMO.
> 
> Saying "hey, you're pretty smart for a woman" would lead to just as much facepalming. And that's gender-related.




OK, I'll accept that "eloquence" was a bad example. But I don't think that invalidates the point.   Let's drop "eloquence" and replace it with "gaming":

You're good at gaming for a black man.
You're good at gaming for a homosexual man.
You're good at gaming for a woman.
How does the third differ to the first two in your mind?  



> However, consider how many people pointed out how great it was to see an African American in the oval office. Rightly so, IMO.




And, indeed, we'll say it's great to see more women in gaming. This isn't the same statement as those above at all.  These things would be evidence that things are changing for the better.



> However, people can be genuinely glad to see someone pursuing a dream, career, hobby that doesn't fall into the usual stereotyped demographic and that doesn't immediately scream of discrimination or condescension to me. It can be quite the other way around!




I don't quite get the linquistic trick which enabled you to characterise the sexism we're discussing as "people glad to see someone pursuing a hobby"?  

That's not what we're talking about _at all_.   What we're (and when I see "we" I appear to mean "me and a couple of women") trying to discourage is discrimination, not welcoming statements.

Welcoming statements are welcome.  We're very much _not_ taking about, as you say, people who are glad to see someone adopting a hobby not common in their demographic.  I'm one of the people glad to see people adopting a hobby not common in their demographic; my issue here is the _reasons_ (as laid out by the people in question here in this thread) that that hobby is not common in their demographic.

It all comes down to women saying "we're made uncomfortable by the sexism in this hobby".  We can either accept that at face value or not.  No amount of semantic or linguistic discussion changes that basic choice.

May I ask - what is your choice here?  I'm a little unclear.  Do you accept at face value the reasons cited by women in this thread for their non-participation?



> If it's about embracing diversity and celebrating individual empowerment, I'm cool with it




To me, it's about creating an environment which is welcoming to all who wish to participate.  No need to celebrate or embrace anything; just to not make things uncomfortable for anyone (and by "anyone" I mean groups, not individuals).


----------



## Morrus (Jun 19, 2012)

Greatwyrm said:


> Being a white guy isn't always what it's cracked up to be. Once upon a time, I was told my hiring for a previous employer was delayed by six months because someone higher up the food chain couldn't understand why I'd want to do "women's work". When I was in a room with thirty women at another training session and I won the door prize, there was a collectively held breath while the 250 pound good ol' boy went up to (cheerfully and graciously) collect his gift bag of potpourri, flower notepad, and a scented candle. Not to mention the endless stream of "men suck because...", "hunky movie star", and "ladies' issues" discussions that always ended with sidelong glances and my assurances they wouldn't be included in a sexual harassment lawsuit.
> 
> Just because I use the other bathroom doesn't mean I don't get it.




Yeah, but you do know that this isn't an endemic societal problem, I assume?  There will always be exceptions, but it's hard to deny that "white male heterosexual" is very much a non-discriminated-against group compared to others.


----------



## Greatwyrm (Jun 19, 2012)

Morrus said:


> Yeah, but you do know that this isn't an endemic societal problem, I assume?  There will always be exceptions, but it's hard to deny that "white male heterosexual" is very much a non-discriminated-against group compared to others.




Endemic isn't my issue.



			
				Morrus said:
			
		

> Being a white male is a lucky position of non-discrimination. Of course we won't be sensitive to these things. Why would we be?




That is.

You may not experience it.  You may not be offended that nearly every sit-com dad after Bill Cosby has been an oafish, idiot white guy.  You may not be offended that guys who look like me are always bad guys or idiots on pro-wrestling shows.  Maybe I'd like to have a guy that looks like me be cast in a movie as the romantic lead without the words "anti-type casting" attached to the story.

All I'm saying is being a guy doesn't necessarily mean I don't get where the ladies who are offended here are coming from.


----------



## TanithT (Jun 19, 2012)

nnms said:


> You don't see claiming that something that someone likes in their fantasy art is pornographic and that they are participating in exposing it to non-consenting adults or to minors might just be a bit inflammatory?  That they might perceive that as you attacking something they like and responding to you as an outside moral critic?




They might respond that way if I actually said that, yes. 

I don't personally think that even the more extreme examples of such art in mass market RPG's are the most explicit thing kids could be exposed to. It's not an issue I spend a lot of time worrying about, because I don't have kids and I don't game with kids.  It's a reasonable point to think about, if you do want your game to be kid-friendly.  It's okay if you don't, though.  I don't.  

I brought it up not to say that OMG, our hobby needs to be more kid friendly, but as a corollary to the "consenting adult" criteria for when sexuality is okay, mostly to state that even though sex is good, there are some places that it isn't a great idea to have it.  You seem to have really focused on the "minors" aspect, and that's not really where I'm personally coming from.  

 But, it is true that you absolutely can find R-rated, softporn type art in mass  market RPG material.  I'm not sure who you think I'm accusing because of that,  though.  Maybe the publishers, but if they are marketing to adults, it's a non issue in that respect.  



> If I was running a game and you started talking about how the rulebook for the game (or perhaps the GM screen?) is an example of spreading pornography to minors, I'd tell you that we can talk about it outside of the game session.  If you persisted, I'd ask you to leave the table and stop accusing the people playing of being criminals.



I'd do the same if I was the GM.  Unless there were actually young minors at the table and the DM placed something extremely explicit in their view, that isn't something I would be interested in doing.  I've never personally seen that happen, and I don't really think it is happening.


----------



## TheShroud (Jun 19, 2012)

Elf Witch said:


> I have felt it in the game , books and minis. Though as I have said it is slowly getting better. I mentioned already the crap I took in the game from overt creepiness to sexism like I am putting a cap of a 10 on strength for all female characters and cap of 12 on wisdom as well because woman are usually not as wise as men and look to them for guidance.
> 
> My first wizard I played the DM proudly provided me with a mini that had been beautifully painted. The mini had long flowing hair with a staff with a crystal ball on top and her one arm was out like she was casting a spell. She was also topless wearing just a belly dancer style bottom. I don't think the DM was trying to be a jerk. Semi nudity was common in the art work of this time. I don't think he or the rest of the guys grasped how very uncomfortable this made me.
> 
> ...




I appreciate what you are saying, (no i truly do, no sarcasim) My wife (God I love her) is often comparing herself to these women in the media or what society has put out there as to what to expect, and it breaks my heart she is so gorgeous and so incredible and though i love her looks i find her attractive for more than just her good looks, I see her  brillance (and honestly she is probably a lot better person than myself). Sorry i am getting off track.. lol I tend to do that about her. 

My point is I hate how society has said what is right or wrong, or pretty or not, But I choose to find ways everyday to make her realize that this is not the truth of the world or everyone in it. It is all I can do. 

I am sorry that there are a lot of creepers out there, and unfortunately they find their way into our fun world away from our hard lives.   RPGs are suppose to be a place where we can unwind, escape, or just be able to be someone else for a few hours.  It shouldnt ever be uncomfortable or causing seperation.

I also think that there are some women out there like you said who break their ankles trying to look the part, but lets face it there are plenty of men out there doing something if not more just as stupid, I want to blame society but the reality is it is there own choice to follow what others say. 

All we can do is like we have all said in our own ways, Change it or avoid it. 

Sorry for any confusion I may have put out there leading yall to think I am ok with sexism, I am far from that.

I was a prior soldier and I worked with women who were just as tough as any guy I knew, hell most of them were tougher for the simple fact they usually had more to deal with.


----------



## Posr (Jun 19, 2012)

I would like to thank the women and men who have clearly, patiently, and articulately expressed what was problematic about the original news item and sexism that is endemic to our hobby. 

There have been positive changes in representations of women and people of color in RPGs since the 70s when I first started playing, but overall there is a tremendous amount of work to be done. By responding in the way you have you are speaking truth to destructive prevailing norms. It takes endurance to do what you are doing - thank you for keeping on. 

\m/  \m/


----------



## Stacie GmrGrl (Jun 19, 2012)

Consonant Dude said:


> You would be more than welcome should you ever come to Montreal!
> 
> I usually run games in my native language, though. I did run a mini-campaign in Shakespeare's tongue in Toronto and a bilingual campaign once so I'm rusty but willing
> 
> Barring that, maybe one day I'll try gaming online if I find a group!




You mean I would have to learn a new language? /sigh
You sound like my friend Claude who lives in Canada, he said I would have to learn French. I told him if ever I knew I would go up there, then sure thing.


----------



## Dire Bare (Jun 19, 2012)

Felon said:


> Let me see if I can show a couple of trailers from two different upcoming video games. They have been decried using words like "sexist", "misogynistic", and "disempowering". I'm interested to hear if people here draw parallels and/or distinctions between them:
> 
> The first is from the upcoming Tomb Raider prequel.
> 
> Tomb Raider - E3 2012 Exclusive Crossroads Trailer - YouTube




Any new Tomb Raider game has to deal with the baggage of the series, and Lara Croft's traditional outfit is typical sexist video game crap . . . I've never played any of the games, only seen the movie and the marketing, but friends have told me that despite her usual outfit, Croft is a strong female character.

In the above trailer, it looks like a reimagining of the character and franchise to me, in a good way.  Croft's outfit doesn't come across as sexist at all to me, although she does look sexy in the trailer.  She also doesn't appear to be as confidently bad-ass as I've always assumed she was portrayed in older games (but again, haven't played them) . . . she seemed like a normal person caught up in horrific events . . . although with what she goes through in the trailer, I'm not sure Indiana Jones would make it out of that alive!  (and I don't say that cause Indy's a guy, but rather because he's the archetypal bad-ass adventuring archaeologist)



> The second is a trailer for Hitman: Absolutions.
> 
> Hitman Absolution - Attack of the Saints Trailer [North America] - YouTube




This one, however, pissed me off.  The assassin nuns stripping off their habits into sexy bondage gear before shooting a missile launcher into the hotel room was sexist video game stupidity at its finest.  If the assasanuns lost the moronic nun high heels and had kept their habits on as they tried to kill our hero, it might've actually looked pretty good.  This kind of trailer definitely keeps me from purchasing video games, I won't be looking at the new Hitman game anytime soon.  And I'm a guy.


----------



## Consonant Dude (Jun 19, 2012)

Morrus said:


> OK, I'll accept that "eloquence" was a bad  example. But I don't think that invalidates the point.   Let's drop  "eloquence" and replace it with "gaming":
> 
> You're good at gaming for a black man.
> You're good at gaming for a homosexual man.
> ...




It doesn't. They all read condescending to me. 




Morrus said:


> I don't quite get the linquistic trick which enabled you to characterise  the sexism we're discussing as "people glad to see someone pursuing a  hobby"?




Yeah, I must have missed something because now it sounds like you're saying I find sexism to be a good way to greet people. 

I don't do that, sorry. I'm not really sure what you are referring to.



Morrus said:


> That's not what we're talking about _at all_.   What we're (and  when I see "we" I appear to mean "me and a couple of women") trying to  discourage is discrimination, not welcoming statements.




A lot of people have spoken out against discrimination in this thread.  That includes me. The fact my opinion does not map out a 100% with yours  does not change that.  



Morrus said:


> It all comes down to women saying "we're made uncomfortable by the  sexism in this hobby".  We can either accept that at face value or not.   No amount of semantic or linguistic discussion changes that basic  choice.
> 
> May I ask - what is your choice here?  I'm a little unclear.  Do you  accept at face value the reasons cited by women in this thread for their  non-participation?




Semantics? Discussion changes? Man, earlier when I gave you the example  about women finding it sexy to see a man taking charge of the kitchen,  it didn't count. I had to roll with this notion that what's good for the  goose isn't good for the gander. It's not discrimination if it's done to me. 

Then later you come back with an example on a black person. I point out  how I see things and now you shift to some other example and then ask me  to take some kind of stand when all along, I've been giving you answers as best as I can. 

I made my position abundantly clear. You said yesterday that it wasn't  about you. It was about these women posting on ENWorld, telling us how  they feel. Isn't it weird that today, none of the women I have  interacted with here have any problem understanding what I am saying but  somehow, none of my answer is ever good enough for you?




Morrus said:


> To me, it's about creating an environment which is welcoming to all who  wish to participate.  No need to celebrate or embrace anything; just to  not make things uncomfortable for anyone (and by "anyone" I mean groups,  not individuals).




Speaking of semantics... the answer you just gave is pretty much  identical, as far as general sentiment, to what you had quoted. 

We both are firmly against sexism. We have both acknowledged that sexism  exists in this hobby. We are both listening to what women are saying  about the state of gaming. We want everyone to have access and feel welcome in this hobby. 

So what is the problem here?


----------



## Morrus (Jun 19, 2012)

Consonant Dude said:


> It doesn't. They all read condescending to me.
> 
> Yeah, I must have missed something because now it sounds like you're saying I find sexism to be a good way to greet people.
> 
> ...




Well, we're clearly talking at cross purposes somewhere if you keep on thinking I'm accusing you of things.

I was merely trying to argue that I did not think your Obama analogy was a relevant one to the discussion. It was an illustration of positive, not negative attitudes. Maybe I was a little long-winded about it, but that's pretty much what it boiled down to.

Not to put words in your mouth, but from this post I get the impression that my rejection of both analogies (you cooking, and Obama's presidency) might be making you feel I'm dismissing you in some way? I'm not, but I feel both analogies are fundamentally flawed.

But that's all minutia in the greater debate, on which we appear to have a general concordance.


----------



## Consonant Dude (Jun 19, 2012)

Morrus said:


> Not to put words in your mouth, but from this post I get the impression that my rejection of both analogies (you cooking, and Obama's presidency) might be making you feel I'm dismissing you in some way? I'm not, but I feel both analogies are fundamentally flawed.
> 
> But that's all minutia in the greater debate, on which we appear to have a general concordance.




That we do!

I wouldn't say I felt dismissed. 

I have to tell you, this feels very different from talking about what kind of spell system should be used in 5th edition, or whether Shadowrun's setting is more interesting than Transhuman Space. 

If you and I were to argue about DnD combat. You tell me it should use a d20, I tell you it should use a reading of chicken bones thrown randomly on a plate... it's not really a big deal. It doesn't even matter what you think of me after the discussion. And if you misunderstood, there's no harm. 

Here it feels... a lot more significant. This issue transcends gaming. Discrimination and hatred hurts people. I feel like I'm walking on a tightrope because with every post, I am under the impression I may be misjudged for a person I am not. 

It's a massive subject. With each post in this thread, we can go in different directions. We've touched on racism, sexism, violence, sexualization, objectification and even whether discrimination against white men really exists. You could write a thesis on any of these subjects and still not reach consensus on any one of these subjects. 

At least one person has said on this thread she felt less welcome in the hobby after reading it. That's sad. 

Because of all this, I'm probably a little more edgy than I should be. Sorry if I'm a little defensive. I'm gonna stop with the assumptions.


----------



## TanithT (Jun 19, 2012)

Consonant Dude said:


> I wouldn't say I felt dismissed.




I did feel dismissed, specifically by what you said in response to my sharing my own experience and perspective.  I respect your right to draw different conclusions, have different opinions, and to disagree.  Whether it was your intent or not, and your later posts suggests that it probably was not, I honestly felt that what you said was more dismissive than disagreeing.

Just letting you know that this was how I personally felt after reading your response to my restaurant analogy.  That's all.  No grand universal truths intended or implied here.




> At least one person has said on this thread she felt less welcome in the hobby after reading it. That's sad.




More than one.  The combined impact this week of this thread, of taking a statistical look at the promo stuff handed out on Free RPG Day, and the display in my local gaming store has been pretty significant for me.  

Not that it isn't just more of the same stuff I've been dealing with for years, but it's been a pretty solid confirmation on all fronts that there really is very little left here that is fun for me.

The people who think of themselves as the good guys in gaming, as the ones who are speaking out *against* discrimination, are also telling me that I'm wrong for trying to explain what it actually feels like to me.  They're saying that my experiences are invalid or don't exist.  And that does have an impact.  Though probably not the one they intended.


----------



## Elf Witch (Jun 19, 2012)

TheShroud said:


> I appreciate what you are saying, (no i truly do, no sarcasim) My wife (God I love her) is often comparing herself to these women in the media or what society has put out there as to what to expect, and it breaks my heart she is so gorgeous and so incredible and though i love her looks i find her attractive for more than just her good looks, I see her  brillance (and honestly she is probably a lot better person than myself). Sorry i am getting off track.. lol I tend to do that about her.
> 
> My point is I hate how society has said what is right or wrong, or pretty or not, But I choose to find ways everyday to make her realize that this is not the truth of the world or everyone in it. It is all I can do.
> 
> ...




Sure men do dumb things to. We all do. 

 I am not saying that society is to blame because we are society and we are responsible for our decisions. I just saying the pressure to conform can be intense. It is just not woman who get this. Men who stray from what society thinks men should do can have a rough time as well. I took ballet in my youth. Male dancers can have a rough time with their peers and family. One big misconception is that male ballet dancers must be gay and believe me that is not true.  Sure some are but it is not a given.  

But from the time we are born the boys with their blue blankets and the girls with their pink society starts telling is what is expected from us. I sometimes think in some ways girls can have it a little easier being a tomboy is not seen as bad as a boy being a sissy. 

We all try and find a place where we can be comfortable. For me it is the geek hobbies like gaming, SF Cons, SCA.

Over time I have learned to pick my battles. I am big letter writer to companies who do things that upset me. As I said in another post I don't game with jerks and I won't sit there and stew if something is really offensive. Though I often use humor to get my point a cross when it is someone who I know is not really trying to be offensive.


----------



## Consonant Dude (Jun 19, 2012)

TanithT said:


> I did feel dismissed, specifically by what you  said in response to my sharing my own experience and perspective.  I  respect your right to draw different conclusions, have different  opinions, and to disagree.  Whether it was your intent or not, and your  later posts suggests that it probably was not, I honestly felt that what  you said was more dismissive than disagreeing.
> 
> Just letting you know that this was how I personally felt after reading  your response to my restaurant analogy.  That's all.  No grand universal  truths intended or implied here.




I'm really sorry you feel this way. I'm gonna read back the thread. What I think I've said (or at least wanted to say) is that I don't see this hobby as a whole to be sexist, exclusive, etc...

I did not ever want to dismiss your experience, deny what you felt like. My point was that there was a lot being offered in gaming. It's got crap like foundation (you know, the old d20 superhero aberration with boobie stats)  but a lot of cool products. It's got creepy players but a lot of positive, welcoming people. 

I also said I couldn't believe that the industry's presentation of its products, or the behavior of its participant, could be pointed out as the unique reason why we have such a ratio of women in this hobby. 

But never ever did I intend for you to think your experience didn't matter, or tell you to just get another hobby. And I am really sorry if it sounded that way. 



TanithT said:


> More than one.  The combined impact this week of this thread, of taking a  statistical look at the promo stuff handed out on Free RPG Day, and the  display in my local gaming store has been pretty significant for me.
> 
> Not that it isn't just more of the same stuff I've been dealing with for  years, but it's been a pretty solid confirmation on all fronts that  there really is very little left here that is fun for me.
> 
> The people who think of themselves as the good guys in gaming, as the  ones who are speaking out *against* discrimination, are also telling me  that I'm wrong for trying to explain what it actually feels like to me.   They're saying that my experiences are invalid or don't exist.  And  that does have an impact.  Though probably not the one they  intended.




That's... depressing. I really hope you reconsider. I hope I didn't make you feel like you were wrong for explaining how you felt. It never crossed my mind to do that. 

And just so you know, people who are reading this thread gather a lot from your experiences, I know I do. We're all discussing and sometimes disagreeing. But then stuff sinks in. I'm processing what is being said by everyone in this thread. I hope there was something of value for someone in what I said as well.


----------



## Felon (Jun 19, 2012)

Dire Bare said:


> Any new Tomb Raider game has to deal with the baggage of the series, and Lara Croft's traditional outfit is typical sexist video game crap . . . I've never played any of the games, only seen the movie and the marketing, but friends have told me that despite her usual outfit, Croft is a strong female character.
> 
> In the above trailer, it looks like a reimagining of the character and franchise to me, in a good way.  Croft's outfit doesn't come across as sexist at all to me, although she does look sexy in the trailer.  She also doesn't appear to be as confidently bad-ass as I've always assumed she was portrayed in older games (but again, haven't played them) . . . she seemed like a normal person caught up in horrific events . . . although with what she goes through in the trailer, I'm not sure Indiana Jones would make it out of that alive!  (and I don't say that cause Indy's a guy, but rather because he's the archetypal bad-ass adventuring archaeologist)
> 
> ...



Well, I'm happy that at least somebody replied to that post and shared their thoughts.

The Tomb Raider trailer has drawn flack for showing Lara as being disempowered. It's a kind of catch-22: if you use a female character as something kind of untouchable badass, then some people will say she's plastic and phony. If you show her vulnerable and human, then some will say she's being used as an object for degradation. Not my words, mind you. I like the clip and look forward to the game.

The Hitman trailer is totally bizarre and uncomfortable. The PVC sex costumes would be weird and out-of-place in their own right, but then they're mixed in with the nun habits. And then to top things off, after the titillation, we get to see slow-mo shots of them being slaughtered. It's not just tasteless, it's downright yucky. The hate on it pretty universal.


----------



## TanithT (Jun 19, 2012)

Consonant Dude said:


> I'm really sorry you feel this way. I'm gonna read back the thread. What I think I've said (or at least wanted to say) is that I don't see this hobby as a whole to be sexist, exclusive, etc...




We're different people, and of course going to have different personal experiences and perspectives.  That's not solely a function of gender, though of course that's an influence.  I'm glad that your experiences and presumably those of the women you've gamed with have been good, though it might be really enlightening if you asked some of them quietly and privately in a safe and supportive enough environment that they did not feel compelled to say, "no, it's okay" to avoid inviting criticism or accusations of being prudish, moralistic, etc.  

You've seen what happens when a woman does say, "Yes, this stuff makes me feel bad."  It generally results in pretty much of a shitstorm, even if she's not yelling or accusing or doing anything except saying, "Hey, just so you know, this is how it feels."  A lot of women will avoid that conflict and pay the silent price by not saying anything.  Or they walk away, and you might not know why.  They aren't telling, because they really don't want to get into that fight.  It's just not worth it. That may be happening more often than you know.

In my personal experience, over the years I've been gaming, the hobby as a whole has been described by most of the women I know as sexist, exclusionary, a men's club, or as creepy or scary to them.   Not to say that every single gamer is like this, or that every single book has rape imagery or cheesecake pinup art that treats women as bimbos rather than as full characters, but enough do that we really do notice and it makes a personal impact.  

These things specifically have made a personal impact on me and my experience often enough over the years to have really worn my enthusiasm for gaming down from "I live for gaming and am hugely active and even professionally involved in the hobby" to "not even worth trying any more, I'm just going to have another bad experience."

So yes, I do personally see the hobby as a whole as invariably containing these kinds of experiences for me and for other women.  It may not be the largest percentage of encounters, but it's common enough to be on the encounter table.  Keep rolling and it's gonna come up.

I'm sure it's better in some places than others.  I'm sure there is such a thing as women who have rolled well enough on their personal encounter tables, or just been selective enough about who they game with and what books they use, that they have never had really bad experiences or unwelcoming comments pointed in their direction.  I just don't personally happen to know any.

The nature of this issue is that it's always going to be a lot less visible to people who don't get targeted, simply because unless it happens literally in front of you, you won't see or hear it. Women are more likely to talk about these experiences where they know they won't get jumped on or criticized or called prudish for doing so.  And many will not talk about them if they think it will just engender more conflict and bad feelings, or if their acceptance and approval as 'one of the guys' is threatened.




> I also said I couldn't believe that the industry's presentation of its products, or the behavior of its participant, could be pointed out as the unique reason why we have such a ratio of women in this hobby.




Solely?  No.  The hobby doesn't exist in a vacuum.  It is a gestalt, a whole made up of its parts, and the overall impression is worth considering.




> But never ever did I intend for you to think your experience didn't matter, or tell you to just get another hobby. And I am really sorry if it sounded that way.




I appreciate that. My intent was to describe and illustrate with an analogy how my personal experience felt to me, not to say that my opinions and conclusions are all absolutely factual and no one can disagree or come to different conclusions.  They're fact for me - they are indeed my experiences and my perceptions - but that's all they are.

I do personally experience sexism and discrimination in the hobby, in pretty much every aspect I've ever been involved in over the years.  Obviously not from every person or game or every book; I agree there are great people and games and books.  But the percentage of creepy people, exclusionary remarks and bad female character depictions is high enough that there are no good avoidance strategies that don't seriously limit my involvement in the hobby.  





> And just so you know, people who are reading this thread gather a lot from your experiences, I know I do. We're all discussing and sometimes disagreeing. But then stuff sinks in. I'm processing what is being said by everyone in this thread. I hope there was something of value for someone in what I said as well.




I hope so, and that's certainly more of a hopeful thought.


----------



## TanithT (Jun 19, 2012)

Felon said:


> The Tomb Raider trailer has drawn flack for showing Lara as being disempowered. It's a kind of catch-22: if you use a female character as something kind of untouchable badass, then some people will say she's plastic and phony. If you show her vulnerable and human, then some will say she's being used as an object for degradation. Not my words, mind you. I like the clip and look forward to the game.




I have no beef with anything in that clip.  The female character is in her underwear, but then she starts out hanging upside down in some kind of cocoon, so there's a reason.  It's not particularly sexy underwear, either.  She is in trouble and the clip shows it, but that is also part of the storyline.  She isn't being depicted as either helpless or totally powerful, which is a good thing in a believable protagonist.




> The Hitman trailer is totally bizarre and uncomfortable. The PVC sex costumes would be weird and out-of-place in their own right, but then they're mixed in with the nun habits. And then to top things off, after the titillation, we get to see slow-mo shots of them being slaughtered. It's not just tasteless, it's downright yucky.




I have no issue with the violence, but the dominatrix latex fetish wear and high heels in combat was just stupid and gratuitous.  Dressing like that for a fight, you gotta expect to get killed.  Seriously idiotic, and my suspension of disbelief goes out the window.


----------



## I'm A Banana (Jun 19, 2012)

Felon said:
			
		

> Let me see if I can show a couple of trailers from two different upcoming video games. They have been decried using words like "sexist", "misogynistic", and "disempowering". I'm interested to hear if people here draw parallels and/or distinctions between them:




I don't think I can speak to what others might find sexist very much, but I can say that both of those have their problems.

The Tomb Raider trailer focuses a lot on beating up Lara Croft. I get that this is kind of where SquareEnix was going: gritty, survival-style stuff. But any trailer that is showing a continuous beat-down of a girl is going to flash all sorts of alarm bells. It squicks me out a little because it shows that SquareEnix is at least a little blinded by its privilege. They don't get to exist in a world where violence against women specifically isn't a real problem, so they need to be aware of that and pro-actively address that if the concept of the game is "Lara Croft, a young woman, gets her butt kicked for 30 hours or so."

If she's supposed to rise to heroism (and she certainly SHOULD, given that this is a prequel!), the trailer doesn't show a lot of that. Which, again, is probably part of the point (the rise to heroism is the part you play!), it just makes SE in sort of a catch-22. They're going to be accused of sexism and misogyny, but the burden is on them to make sure that their game ISN'T, even though the preview might suggest otherwise. When what you have on offer is "A girl gets beat up for two minutes," the burden is on you to show that you're not just doing it as a snuff film. 

As for the Hitman trailer, I just don't know why they were dressed like dominatrixes under those habits. Or even why they're all women. But the same idea of privilege exists: they don't get to pretend they are in a world where violence against women is perfectly fine to glorfiy.

What these both hinge on is that in a world where women and men were completely equal in society, they'd probably be fine (if a little ridiculous in the Hitman case). But we _don't_ live in that world, and to ignore the fact that we don't live in that world risks whitewashing actual problems that the world has. You don't get to pretend you can represent violence against women without a reaction, because your media exists in a cultural landscape that is greater than you, and that cultural landscape right now includes some very problematic gender-based violence.


----------



## Elf Witch (Jun 19, 2012)

Felon said:


> Well, I'm happy that at least somebody replied to that post and shared their thoughts.
> 
> The Tomb Raider trailer has drawn flack for showing Lara as being disempowered. It's a kind of catch-22: if you use a female character as something kind of untouchable badass, then some people will say she's plastic and phony. If you show her vulnerable and human, then some will say she's being used as an object for degradation. Not my words, mind you. I like the clip and look forward to the game.
> 
> The Hitman trailer is totally bizarre and uncomfortable. The PVC sex costumes would be weird and out-of-place in their own right, but then they're mixed in with the nun habits. And then to top things off, after the titillation, we get to see slow-mo shots of them being slaughtered. It's not just tasteless, it's downright yucky. The hate on it pretty universal.




I just watched both trailers. First of all I am only familiar with the Tomb Raider movies. I am not a video game player. I didn't see her in this trailers as powerless but human and determined to survive. She was not coming across as an experienced powerful action figure but one just starting on that journey.

The second video I found disgusting.


----------



## TanithT (Jun 19, 2012)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> The Tomb Raider trailer focuses a lot on beating up Lara Croft. I get that this is kind of where SquareEnix was going: gritty, survival-style stuff. But any trailer that is showing a continuous beat-down of a girl is going to flash all sorts of alarm bells.




How do you have a female protagonist in a gritty survival story who doesn't take any hits or hard knocks?  You can't.  If you want to tell that genre of story, your protagonist takes knocks.  Doesn't matter if the protagonist is male, female, animal or alien.  That could be Lassie getting torn up on his way to rescue Timmie from the well, and it would be the same story.  Having a female protagonist who gets knocked around in the course of the story doesn't automatically equate to sexualization, or to anything but a survival story where the protagonist happens to be female.




> It squicks me out a little because it shows that SquareEnix is at least a little blinded by its privilege. They don't get to exist in a world where violence against women specifically isn't a real problem, so they need to be aware of that and pro-actively address that if the concept of the game is "Lara Croft, a young woman, gets her butt kicked for 30 hours or so."




Except when it DOES get overtly sexual, the femaleness rather than the humanity of the protagonist is a hugely emphasized focus, and the camera lingers on those sequences and those body parts.  Sexual violence is certainly gritty realism, but it can be problematic to center a game around or to have the camera dwell on lovingly and extensively.  I just don't see any of that happening in this clip, however.   

I don't personally agree with your statement about privilege here, because there is no way to tell a 'hard knocks' survival story without your protagonist taking a lot of them.  An extension of what you are saying is that there shouldn't be female protagonists in this kind of story - women don't get to take punishment and survive and become heroes.




> If she's supposed to rise to heroism (and she certainly SHOULD, given that this is a prequel!), the trailer doesn't show a lot of that. Which, again, is probably part of the point (the rise to heroism is the part you play!), it just makes SE in sort of a catch-22. They're going to be accused of sexism and misogyny, but the burden is on them to make sure that their game ISN'T, even though the preview might suggest otherwise. When what you have on offer is "A girl gets beat up for two minutes," the burden is on you to show that you're not just doing it as a snuff film.




Possibly.  I didn't see her as 'a girl', I saw her as 'the protagonist of a hard knocks survival story' and she's at the beginning of that story.  She's first level right now.  I assume she gets more powerful as the game progresses.  I'm okay with her starting at first level.




> You don't get to pretend you can represent violence against women without a reaction, because your media exists in a cultural landscape that is greater than you, and that cultural landscape right now includes some very problematic gender-based violence.




Excellent point.  How far do we have to go in actually *excluding* women from being the heroes in certain kinds of stories, though, if we can't depict them getting hit?


----------



## Consonant Dude (Jun 19, 2012)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> I don't think I can speak to what others might find sexist very much, but I can say that both of those have their problems.




If this Lara Croft trailer really has problems for some people, I can safely say there is no way to avoid issues in RPGs, which are often adventure and action-oriented. 

We've been watching the video here a few times and everybody's saying it rocks! I'm being asked what kind of system we could use to play a Tomb Raider-style campaign.

I wanted to avoid posting anymore on the issue but this is extremely disappointing. More and more, this isn't even about sexism. Like, at all. It's about personal perception and preferences. And diatribes about how we live in an unfair world for women, so as a result, Lara Croft shouldn't take a beating like any worthy adventurer should!    

I'm all for making sure we live in a better world. Improving laws, raising awareness in society, art, etc... those are separate issues and they are worthy causes.

I'm also all for appropriate games with appropriate art. Banishing exploitative and blatantly distasteful trends in style, art and editorial content of RPGs. Fighting against type. Offering more choice, empowering people. 

But I'm seeing cases that are far from black and white being brought up as issues. And in the case of this Lara Croft trailer, something that boggles the mind. That's sexism? That's a social issue? That's a women issue?

NO. It isn't. It's about your personal preference. Don't like a resilient female protagonist facing adversity in an exciting adventure? Tough luck, move on! I'd run this kind of setting any day. My female players would love it. I refuse to even entertain the notion that we're part of some insidious trend to subjugate the female gender as a result.


----------



## I'm A Banana (Jun 19, 2012)

TanithT said:
			
		

> How do you have a female protagonist in a gritty survival story who doesn't take any hits or hard knocks? You can't.




Sure. But the gender of the protagonist is a loaded choice. I mean, for Tomb Raider, to a certain degree, it's not (Lara Croft is the protagonist!), but for any media object, it always, to a certain degree, is. That's just sort of the reality of the world we live in. Not that it should be, or has to be, or ought to be, but that it *is*, and someone making a gritty survival story featuring a female protagonist needs to be aware that this is a different choice than making a gritty survival story featuring a male protagonist, and they need to be able to responsibly represent that.

So the question is: "Why did you choose a female character to tell this story about someone going through this brutal physical punishment?" 

I know that the reason probably has more to do with franchises and licensing than anything, but I also know that the target audience of the game is likely teenage to adult males, and that the franchise they're working with is steeped in cheap sexual appeals. Videogame characters in general aren't cast as weak and pained, but this Lara Croft certainly is, at least for a time. So why her? Why now? How many other similar videogame characters go through such finely-detailed, lovingly-crafted physical pain and suffering? I can't imagine we'd see Nathan Drake in a similar circumstance. Trying something new is great (I certainly applaud most of what they seem to be trying to do), but because this is not a neutral choice, they need to prove their good intentions. They need to show where they can that they are not choosing to put her through this brutal physical punishment BECAUSE she is female. That her femininity doesn't allow them to play with a male player's psychological fears and dreams and insecurities more. 

The game might totally vindicate that perspective. Or it might not. But whether or not it does, SquareEnix needs to walk forward with an awareness that it is a tight rope to walk. People are going to ask: "Why did you choose a female character to tell this story about someone going through this brutal physical punishment?" People are going to ask: "Some of those scenes in the preview remind me of scenes from 'torture porn' films like _Hostel_. Why did the influence of the series change in tone here from an action-movie, Indiana-Jones feel?"



			
				TanithT said:
			
		

> An extension of what you are saying is that there shouldn't be female protagonists in this kind of story - women don't get to take punishment and survive and become heroes.




It's not that such protagonists shouldn't exist, it's that such protagonists automatically have a different audience reaction, and you can't avoid that, so you need to be aware of it. The reality of the world makes it so that you need to be more careful in doing a videogame about a tormented woman than you need to be when doing a videogame about a tormented man. You can do it. You just need to take extra care to do it well, because if you do it poorly, it's not just bad, it can be DEEPLY wrong. 



			
				TannithT said:
			
		

> Possibly. I didn't see her as 'a girl', I saw her as 'the protagonist of a hard knocks survival story' and she's at the beginning of that story. She's first level right now. I assume she gets more powerful as the game progresses. I'm okay with her starting at first level.




If one assumes the genders can be swapped without consequence, that's a symptom of privilege as I understand it, no? The choice of gender matters, right? So why did Lara Croft's story need this gritty, brutal chapter about her origin? Why did her Indiana-Jones Action-Adventure story need this hard-knocks origin? Why change the tone? Why does she need to be grittier and more realistic? 

It's entirely possible that it's fine and fun and it'll be harmless. But that trailer didn't reassure me. I don't look at a woman going through suffering for two minutes and say, "That's an experience I want in my living room!" 



			
				TanithT said:
			
		

> Excellent point. How far do we have to go in actually *excluding* women from being the heroes in certain kinds of stories, though, if we can't depict them getting hit?




We can. We just have to realize that in the world as it exists now, hitting a woman is not the same thing as hitting a man. 

I mean, in the _Hitman_ (ha!) trailer, there's a lot of women getting hit in all sorts of ways. But because the tone is more action-movie ridiculous, it carries less impact. Yeah, okay, take out those nun-assassin-prostitutes that tried to blow you up. Whatever?

In the _Tomb Raider_ trailer, because it's closer to "realistic," and because her suffering is more a part of the experience, it's iffier. She's not a nun-assassin-prostitute trying to kill a guy. She's a very human woman in very lovingly-depicted pain. I have to ask, "What purpose does this serve?"

The game might have a good answer. It might not. But it's going to get the question.


----------



## TanithT (Jun 19, 2012)

Consonant Dude said:


> If this Lara Croft trailer really has problems for some people, I can safely say there is no way to avoid issues in RPGs, which are often adventure and action-oriented.




Agreed, and we risk running into even worse discrimination by NOT being allowed to show women in a fight for their lives.  In which they are going to take some hits.  Because, fight.  Can not fight without hitting and getting hit.  Not a difficult equation to parse.




> I wanted to avoid posting anymore on the issue but this is extremely disappointing. More and more, this isn't even about sexism. Like, at all. It's about personal perception and preferences. And diatribes about how we live in an unfair world for women, so as a result, Lara Croft shouldn't take a beating like any worthy adventurer should!




Absolutely I get that point.  I also get that this is a bloody complex issue, and staying aware of the real life bad stuff that deeply shapes women's perceptions and preferences while not over-censoring and whitewashing everything is a delicate balance at best.

Here's an analogy to think about.  Drop gender and replace it with race.  Can you tell a story that shows an African-American being enslaved and beaten, and that includes discriminatory language?  Yes, you can.  Roots was a huge success, and it told a powerful and compelling story about our American history.  Which I sincerely hope that no one is proud of, or glorifies, or thinks would be a good idea to repeat.  But that's not what Roots did.  It did a very good job of telling this story from the protagonist's point of view, humanizing the African-American slaves and telling their human stories.  

What if that same work had subtly or not so subtly glorified or justified or focused more on just beating up black people, dehumanizing them, objectifying them, etc?  What if instead of telling the human stories of the protagonists, it focused heavily on the acts themselves, seemingly for their own sake?  Maybe not such a good story to tell to folks who actually lived that history.

We saw the protagonists of that story being beaten and referred to with derogatory language, and struggling with that adversity.  What we did not see was a primary focus on those acts of violence or humiliation, to the detriment of the human story of how those men and women courageously stood up to them.  So it worked.  It was a good story, an inspiring story, a human story.

The story that got told in Roots was one of heroism and humanity under adversity, not of racial degradation and white on black violence.  Even though those latter two elements were a crucial part of the story and were liberally depicted.  There is a difference.

I think we can make a pretty solid comparison between stories that are ultimately about the humanity of the protagonist and their strength under adversity, and stories that are mainly about violence and degradation and that lovingly focus on those sequences to the detriment of telling the protagonist's story.  




> But I'm seeing cases that are far from black and white being brought up as issues. And in the case of this Lara Croft trailer, something that boggles the mind. That's sexism? That's a social issue? That's a women issue?




It's not a black and white issue.  I don't think anyone's ever said it was.

I see no sexism in this trailer, but I do see stuff that might be personally triggering to a woman who has been threatened with violence or who has been the target of violence.  At that point we need to ask ourselves whether game manufacturers are responsible for this, or whether individual women who have reason to be sensitized are the ones responsible for not choosing to view things they know will be upsetting to them.

I don't think there's a single solve-all solution.  I do think that clear labeling is a great start, and the video game industry generally does this.  If we were talking about a minority of women here, it might be less of an issue, but the percentage of women who are survivors of violence, sexual and otherwise, is insanely, unacceptably high in our society.

Is this fair?  No.  Are the game manufacturers responsible for this?  Also no.  And personally I'd tend to err on the side of more freedom and less censorship, as long as everything is clearly labeled enough to let people choose what they do and do not wish to view.  But, and this is a pretty big but, the social condition does exist and it is huge.  Being *aware* of it rather than ignoring it entirely is a really good idea, even if you choose to make products that are targeted to a different demographic.

Some of it has got to be audience, and context.  If I'm visiting a household of Holocaust survivors and their immediate family, do I really want to show "Ilsa, She-Wolf Of The S.S." as our evening's entertainment?  Er, probably not.  Is it okay for the movie to exist so other people can watch it if they want to?  Sure.  I'm not going to suggest censoring it, even if I'm not going to show it to Holocaust survivors. 

The question gets a little trickier if we're talking about something mass marketed to the general public.  Is it a numbers game? Because half the population is female, and a very high percentage of that percentage are survivors of male on female violence, and their fundamental perceptions and experiences have been shaped by the very real fear of that violence, or the actual personal impact of that violence.  And that's a real social problem.

What you're doing by putting a male on female violent game out is still not the same as sticking a Nazi movie in front of a Jewish family who lost loved ones to that regime, because it's a matter of choice.  No one has to buy the game if they don't want to, and censorship sucks.  It is a heavy price to pay.

But freedom has a price to pay also.  What the game manufacturer may be doing is contributing just a little bit to the general culture of depicting violence against women, normalizing it, making it okay.  Does that make it worth censoring?  Is it worth setting women's issues above human freedom and choice and censorship issues?  I have to say no, it's not, but on the other hand, I do want publishers to *be aware that the social issue exists.* And that it is very, very huge and personally impactful on not just some women, but very nearly all women.  That is all.


----------



## TanithT (Jun 19, 2012)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> So the question is: "Why did you choose a female character to tell this story about someone going through this brutal physical punishment?"




Because females have an equal right to be the protagonists in any genre?




> If one assumes the genders can be swapped without consequence, that's a symptom of privilege as I understand it, no? The choice of gender matters, right?



You make many very good points, but this is actually one I disagree with.  I like telling human stories that aren't automatically gendered ones, and when a story can be told that matters and has the same heroic impact whether the protagonist is male or female, I tend to like it a lot better.  Because it is the strength, nobility, heroism and humanity that matters in the plot, not whether the main character has an innie or an outie.

Basically I like it when women are able to do the same things as men, and when gender matters less than ability and personal fortitude.

Learning to fight in the SCA and in the dojo was sometimes more difficult for me, because male opponents would refuse to hit me or refuse to hit me as hard as they should.  It got to the point that I had to take the sifu aside and ask to please not be assigned any more sparring partners from the class, it was totally useless and I wasn't learning anything that way, would the teachers mind just using me as their practice dummy and *not pulling their blows *any more than was appropriate for a male student in a full contact sparring session.  

The "oh, we just shouldn't hit women under any circumstances" attitude can be pretty limiting and damaging to women, IMO.  I didn't pay that much for lessons so I could get less out of them than a male student.  And it was annoying as ^%$$@ to sit out SCA fighter practices thanks to guys who refused to spar with me because they wouldn't hit a woman.  Or guys who did a deliberately crappy job sparring with me while doing just fine with male partners.  

As far as my own experience goes, that felt a lot more like discrimination than the guys who cheerfully waded in and hit me as hard as they were bloody well supposed to.  




> We can. We just have to realize that in the world as it exists now, hitting a woman is not the same thing as hitting a man.



Correct, and that _also_ has a negative, discriminatory impact on women who actually want to fight.

Annoyingly complicated issue, ain't it?


----------



## fablestreams (Jun 20, 2012)

Hello Everyone,

We want to thank everyone for his or her advice, criticism and input. Fable Streams is a young company and we are interested in getting everyone’s feedback so that we can learn and grow. One of the releases for our 1 of the 9 launch event noticeably has ruffled some feathers. 

First, we would like to say that it is not our intent to make anyone feel uncomfortable and we take to heart the comments and impact our release has had for many of you. We would like to note that in our minds, the definition of “hot, gorgeous, chicks, ladies, etc.” is what each individual makes it mean. For us, a truly gorgeous individual is one who knows with absolutes what makes her the powerful and inspiring person that she is.  We understand that our release may not have been effective in communicating this and in the future we will work to be more inclusive of all.

We have reached out to many female gamers in the industry to garner input and opinions on various aspects of our efforts.  We would love to have more input from the women and the girls interested in creating a better female gaming experience and therefore, if you are interested please send us a message Contact | Fable Streams a message 
We have many things that we are working on and your input is valued and appreciated. 

This may be a great time to ask a question that has come up for us. In our interviews, we asked the question, “How do you prefer someone refer to you? As a women, girl, lady?” We have found that women do not want to be called girls, but girls do not want to be called women, some like to be called ladies and some think being called a lady is creepy, stuffy, odd, funny, sweet, etc.  We would be interested to know how you each interpret being referred as a (girl, lady, woman); and does it depend on the gender of the individual that is saying it to you? We have discussions about it in the office all the time. We appreciate any input.

Second, we are honored that so many individuals have taken the time to do some research on the company.  Since last year we have undergone many exciting and new changes. Currently, most information on our Fable Streams and Genesys sites is in the process of being redone. We will be re-launching our sites very soon, just in time for Gen Con and we look forward to everyone’s feedback on that as well. 

Lastly, since we will be announcing our final selections this week we encourage everyone to check back and see who was chosen.  In fact, let us know the individuals you think would be a good fit. Though we would never turn anyone away that is courageous enough to cast, we are looking for individuals that are game enthusiasts and embody the personality of the characters.


----------



## Dire Bare (Jun 20, 2012)

TanithT said:


> The "oh, we just shouldn't hit women under any circumstances" attitude can be pretty limiting and damaging to women, IMO.  I didn't pay that much for lessons so I could get less out of them than a male student.  And it was annoying as ^%$$@ to sit out SCA fighter practices thanks to guys who refused to spar with me because they wouldn't hit a woman.  Or guys who did a deliberately crappy job sparring with me while doing just fine with male partners.




Sorry to take this a little further off-topic, but you got me thinking about my own experiences with martial arts, SCA fighting, and sparring with women.  I, like many guys, am naturally hesitant to hit a woman in most circumstances where I would have no issues in hitting a man.  Yet, when I practiced karate many (many, many) years ago . . . I was in a "no-contact" dojo, but never had issues sparring with women.  When I fought rattan "sword-and-board" not quite as many years ago (but still many), fighting women with the same force as I did men was also never a problem.  And I didn't notice it being a problem for others . . . but, as with many men, I wasn't looking for it either and never asked any of the warrior ladies if this was a problem.

I suppose, like many things, how much sexism exists in a given setting, how noticeable it is to different parties, really can change dramatically on the specific group dynamics.


----------



## Dire Bare (Jun 20, 2012)

fablestreams said:


> Hello Everyone,
> 
> We want to thank everyone for his or her advice, criticism and input. Fable Streams is a young company and we are interested in getting everyone’s feedback so that we can learn and grow. One of the releases for our 1 of the 9 launch event noticeably has ruffled some feathers.




It's good you are absorbing feedback, and thanks for the acknowledgement.



> We would like to note that in our minds, the definition of “hot, gorgeous, chicks, ladies, etc.” is what each individual makes it mean. For us, a truly gorgeous individual is one who knows with absolutes what makes her the powerful and inspiring person that she is.




This, right here, is your problem, IMO.  You can't simply redefine words and expect folks to roll along with you.  I don't care what "gorgeous" and "hot" mean to you.  I know what they really mean, and if I didn't, I have a dictionary.  Words have meaning.

The word-choice and tone of your marketing so far is exclusionary, insulting to those of us who made it past middle school, and focuses on the physical attractiveness of a false stereotype, the "hot gamer chick".  Not that there aren't women out there who love games and are hot.  I know more than a few in real life, and can also point to some good celebrity examples . . . who would all probably be equally appalled at your marketing efforts to date.

Of course you want attractive people to represent your product, and it's cool that you also want them to be real gamers, and not just paid actors or models.  It's not so much what you're doing, but how.  If you put out a talent search for product representatives, both men and women, who are charismatic enough to represent your product and company and are members of the gaming community, without all the juvenile language like "hot", "gorgeous", "chicks", and etc . . . you might have ruffled a few less feathers.

As it stands right now, I'm 0% interested in your product.  If I stumble upon some better marketing efforts down the road, I might be tempted to give FableStreams another shot.


----------



## I'm A Banana (Jun 20, 2012)

TanithT said:
			
		

> Because females have an equal right to be the protagonists in any genre?




Yes. But that isn't a real answer. Because gender is also not irrelevant.

To put it a slightly different way: "Why can't a male character be central in this particular story about someone going through this brutal physical punishment?"

The point being that the gender of your protagonist is a choice with consequences, not just a coin flip. If you put a male, or a transgendered person, in that role, the story should change, even if only subtly.

So what is that choice doing in _Tomb Raider_? What effect does her being female play in the telling of that story. Why is it useful?



			
				TanithT said:
			
		

> You make many very good points, but this is actually one I disagree with. I like telling human stories that aren't automatically gendered ones, and when a story can be told that matters and has the same heroic impact whether the protagonist is male or female, I tend to like it a lot better




Aye, I think we're getting at the crux of our mild disagreement. 

I don't think there can be gender-neutral stories. As long as gender exists, it is an influence, if only subtly, if only in the background, if only in the mind of the creators. Gender doesn't always need to be front-and-center. But it's always _present_, and it cannot be inconspicuously removed. The story of a woman getting tormented and worn down only to find strength from her father and overcome her adversity is different story from the story of the man getting tormented and worn down only to find strength from his father and overcome his adversity. The arcs and the meanings are quite different. Whether or not they should be, or are intended to be, they are. I think if you try to pretend that isn't the case, you get a sort of false perspective that does a disservice to everyone involved.

Gender, I think, is always present. _Tomb Raider_ specifically has never tried to push Lara's gender to the background (QUITE the opposite, the series' success might be partially based on the heroine's cup size). In this trailer specifically the gender becomes important, whether or not it's intentional (and I think in a few situations at least it is intentional). 

Because humans have gender, it's hard (if not functionally impossible), IMO, to tell a believable human story without also telling a gendered story. Because your protagonist needs to have SOME gender, and because the gender they have will affect how the audience will see them, the good story uses the gender like they use every other element of that story: to help relay the message. Think of how Joss Whedon uses gender in the _Buffy the Vampire Slayer_ series. It MATTERS that Buffy is a woman. She's not gender-neutral. 

This might be holding a videogame (hardly a medium known for nuanced...anything) to too high of a scale, but hell, I don't really think, "Be aware of the context in which your stuff happens" should be too high a standard for ANY creative work. 

Anyway.

That's why _I_ feel a little skeeved out at the _Tomb Raider_ trailer. I feel like I'm invited to leer luridly at this abused woman. And BECAUSE it's a woman, it carries with it some specific cultural baggage (ranging from domestic violence through to dependence on male authority and touching a few choice points in between). It's entirely possible that the game itself avoids the obvious prurient interests and unfortunate implications, but the trailer, at least, doesn't really.


----------



## TanithT (Jun 20, 2012)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> Yes. But that isn't a real answer. Because gender is also not irrelevant.




Irrelevant, no.  But in my opinion, gender should not be something that stops a hero from overcoming a challenge, or from facing that challenge in the first place.




> To put it a slightly different way: "Why can't a male character be central in this particular story about someone going through this brutal physical punishment?"



Because Lara Croft isn't male, and they wanted to tell this particular kind of story about that specific character.  If it's handled well and shows how she responds to adversity and challenge by becoming a strong hero, that might be a pretty good story.  I don't know whether it will or not from just this trailer.




> The point being that the gender of your protagonist is a choice with consequences, not just a coin flip. If you put a male, or a transgendered person, in that role, the story should change, even if only subtly.



I don't personally agree.  The original movie Aliens was a very strong story, and Ripley was originally male.  They decided to cast a woman, but they didn't change the script.  It worked.  I'm very glad they didn't change the script.




> So what is that choice doing in _Tomb Raider_? What effect does her being female play in the telling of that story. Why is it useful?



If you turn that around and start with the character, it might make more sense.  Here we are, game writers, and we need to tell a Lara Croft story.  Let's pick a cool, gritty genre that has good stories in it to tell.  How about some hard-knocks survival stuff as her backstory?  Any reason we can't go there, because Lara is female?  Nope, I'm not seeing one.  Women can get knocked down and get up again and keep fighting, too.  




> I don't think there can be gender-neutral stories. As long as gender exists, it is an influence, if only subtly, if only in the background, if only in the mind of the creators. Gender doesn't always need to be front-and-center. But it's always _present_, and it cannot be inconspicuously removed. The story of a woman getting tormented and worn down only to find strength from her father and overcome her adversity is different story from the story of the man getting tormented and worn down only to find strength from his father and overcome his adversity. The arcs and the meanings are quite different. Whether or not they should be, or are intended to be, they are. I think if you try to pretend that isn't the case, you get a sort of false perspective that does a disservice to everyone involved.



I'm not pretending; this is my real perspective.  I don't personally experience my gender as being very defining, or even all that defined.  I'm not transgendered, but I'm not a very strongly gendered person, so I tend not to natively see things in a gender polarity.  I rarely tell stories that are strongly gendered.  I don't personally experience my gender as being present or relevant when I am going about my day to day activities.  Obviously it influences how other people view and treat me socially, and much of the time I really wish it didn't.  Your mileage may of course vary; this is just me.

I'm puzzling over the two storylines you brought up and I'm not really seeing it.  Unless you postulate that the relationship of son to father and daughter to father are that fundamentally different, or unless you add gender specific sexual elements to the adversity, it's the same story.  At least it would be if I was telling it.  You might tell it differently.




> Because humans have gender, it's hard (if not functionally impossible), IMO, to tell a believable human story without also telling a gendered story. Because your protagonist needs to have SOME gender, and because the gender they have will affect how the audience will see them, the good story uses the gender like they use every other element of that story: to help relay the message. Think of how Joss Whedon uses gender in the _Buffy the Vampire Slayer_ series. It MATTERS that Buffy is a woman. She's not gender-neutral.



Not a Buffy fan myself, but those are good points.  I do think you can tell a perfectly good story with a non gendered protagonist (there's some sci-fi out there that does this), with gender-switching or gender fluid protagonists, and with a protagonist whose gender is pretty well interchangeable because it is primarily a human story.  I'm definitely not suggesting that all stories are or should be non gendered, or interchangeably gendered, but there are some very good ones that can indeed work that way.  At least there are for me, and I tend to like them better than gendered stories.

In some ways, gaming is the ultimate interchangeable story; adventures are not written for any one gender or even class of adventurer.  Anyone can interact with them and participate in the story.  They are (I hope) not gender limited by nature.




> That's why _I_ feel a little skeeved out at the _Tomb Raider_ trailer. I feel like I'm invited to leer luridly at this abused woman. And BECAUSE it's a woman, it carries with it some specific cultural baggage (ranging from domestic violence through to dependence on male authority and touching a few choice points in between). It's entirely possible that the game itself avoids the obvious prurient interests and unfortunate implications, but the trailer, at least, doesn't really.



Your feelings are completely valid and reasonable, and I hope that gaming companies are at least aware of the social context of the material they put out.


----------



## TanithT (Jun 20, 2012)

fablestreams said:


> This may be a great time to ask a question that has come up for us. In our interviews, we asked the question, “How do you prefer someone refer to you? As a women, girl, lady?”




Totally depends on the context and the implied relationship, and on what others are being called.

If someone refers to people as "Men and girls" the assumption is either that the males are adults and the females are minor children, or there is a power relationship being described.  It would be the same if it were "Women and boys".  Neither is really appropriate unless the ones being referred to as children actually are children.

If everyone in the group is being addressed as "boys and girls", it's a non issue. "Guys and girls" is more problematic for me, because "guys" does not have the same diminishing connotation as "girls".  "Guys and gals" might be a little more equivalent, since both are slang terms and neither specifically refers to a minor child or to someone who is childlike.

"Ladies and gentlemen" is formal but fine.  No diminishment on either side.




> Though we would never turn anyone away that is courageous enough to cast, we are looking for individuals that are game enthusiasts and embody the personality of the characters.




Why do I get the feeling that if you have multiple applicants for a role, the skinny large breasted pinup model type is gonna get the role over the bespectacled nerd who is not conventionally attractive, even if she has mad credentials in gaming over the hotter looking model?


----------



## Felon (Jun 20, 2012)

Dire Bare said:


> This, right here, is your problem, IMO.  You can't simply redefine words and expect folks to roll along with you.  I don't care what "gorgeous" and "hot" mean to you.  I know what they really mean, and if I didn't, I have a dictionary.  Words have meaning.



By "our definition of gorgeous", they don't mean definition in the literal sense. I think their position Fablestreams is falling back on is that beauty is in the eye in of the beholder.


----------



## Kynn (Jun 20, 2012)

Felon said:


> By "our definition of gorgeous", they don't mean definition in the literal sense. I think their position Fablestreams is falling back on is that beauty is in the eye in of the beholder.




I guess we'll know by the women they choose if they're going for the conventional definition of beauty or if they're specifically willing to choose female gamers who are kick-ass RPG players but don't necessarily have model physiques or faces.

I'm not holding my breath on the latter option, mind you.


----------



## TanithT (Jun 20, 2012)

Kynn said:


> I guess we'll know by the women they choose if they're going for the conventional definition of beauty or if they're specifically willing to choose female gamers who are kick-ass RPG players but don't necessarily have model physiques or faces.
> 
> I'm not holding my breath on the latter option, mind you.




With you on this one.

Because, this.  Pretty much.  At least that's my perspective on the thing. Not saying that a legitimate female badass can't be attractive, but she's not terribly likely to look like a pinup model.  

See, I don't even mind if a company is being honest about looking for sexy models to be their sales shills.  What makes me feel like my intelligence is being insulted is when they try to tell us that's not what they're doing, they're only hiring these "gorgeous hot chicks" for their minds.  

And they only read Playboy for the articles, of course.


----------



## Lwaxy (Jun 20, 2012)

I'd XP you for that story if I could. And I think I have to borrow Lady Aldana for an adventure idea.


----------



## Morrus (Jun 20, 2012)

I'd have to agree that you can't choose existing loaded language and then later reveal that those words mean something different to you; especially in a press release.

I mean, if I reply "when I said 'sexist' I meant 'likes chocolate cake'; that's what it means to me", you'd be right to laugh at me.

In the same vein, if you use loaded phrases like "hot gamer chicks", especially in a - presumably - though out and considered press release, then you have to accept that those words mean something to the majority of people.


----------



## Consonant Dude (Jun 20, 2012)

What's really important as far as I'm concerned is to find genuine gamers. They need to have the outgoing personality to engage potential customers, sell them on the game. This means knowing the system and the setting enough to answer questions as well as the ability to GM demo games.

Of course, when it comes to this particular RPG, any candidate will have to learn it starting from scratch. It's a brand new game. But I'd rather they pick from the candidates who already have a strong tabletop roleplaying background and interest.

I looked at several candidate videos (it's on their website) and I was kinda disappointed by the number entries where there is a total lack of tabletop experience. I curse the dilution of the term "RPG" to mean pretty much any game, these days. 

Playing Final Fantasy and playing Pathfinder are two very different endeavors. 

If they pick dedicated gamers who have a contagious passion for the hobby, they will go in the right direction.


----------



## Ginny (Jul 7, 2012)

*Casting Fiasco*

If you would, please have a look at this blog. It highlights exactly what is wrong with the gaming community when it comes to females. Thanks.

It's amazing that women in the geek community can act like this and be rewarded. bit.ly/OECqUp


----------



## Lwaxy (Jul 7, 2012)

Very interesting, thanks for posting.


----------



## Dire Bare (Jul 7, 2012)

Ginny said:


> If you would, please have a look at this blog. It highlights exactly what is wrong with the gaming community when it comes to females. Thanks.
> 
> It's amazing that women in the geek community can act like this and be rewarded. bit.ly/OECqUp




I'm sorry you had that experience.  Kind of the opposite end of the spectrum from what we've been talking about in this thread.

Many of us, myself included, found the contest to be creepy, sexist, and disturbing.  We expected all of the finalists to be "hot babes" (in the language of the 1of9 folks) with little real connection to tabletop gaming.

It's somewhat heartening that someone who isn't "traditionally attractive" (whatever that means) was chosen as a finalist . . . . but the G+ blog post that you linked to shows that "non-traditionally attractive" gamer women can sometimes be a part of the problem by hating on "skinny blonde white girls".  

I've seen that sort of behavior before from women I've known who weren't "traditionally attractive", that they found it easy to hate on the beautiful girls.  And some of the "traditionally" beautiful girls I've known have experienced hate and discrimination because of their looks, which seems counter-intuitive, but isn't.

And, I guess, that sorts of sums up my problem with the 1of9 contest, it was just ugly all around . . . . despite many of the contestants, and finalists, being true gamer women and being very charismatic, traditionally and otherwise.

Reverse sexism is just as much as problem as your good old "normal" sexism.


----------



## Ginny (Jul 7, 2012)

The idea that my 14 years of cosplay experience (and yes I make my own costumes), fact that I have been a convention guest at conventions all over the US as well as in Japan, Italy, Germany, Russia, Chile, Mexico and the UK, and that I've been playing games since I was old enough to play the neighbor's Atari should be dismissed because I happen to be slightly attractive/blonde/not fat is something I have had to deal with from women for a very long time.

I am a geek first and a model/actress/writer second. And on top of all that I have barely any friends because of this. Allowing someone to publicly denounce someone's "geek cred" because they are thin and blonde is preposterous. I have friends, women and men, of all shapes and sizes. Unfortunately many, many women are too insecure with themselves that they need to try to tear others down. It's sad.


----------



## Lwaxy (Jul 7, 2012)

Yeah it's sad. I've found that as a not beautiful, overweight woman I am actually expected to dislike women who look good and dress themselves to show it. I don't get that at all.  I once got attacked in a store for helping a young, slim girl to find the right outfit for her brother's wedding. 

There are several screws loose with some people.


----------



## relica (Jul 7, 2012)

Okay, as a woman some of these posts are really bothering me. I am one of the girls who did apply for the game, made it into the final round, and did not land a part.

First and foremost, there is nothing wrong with being an "attractive woman" in the gaming universe. Being attractive does NOT mean someone is unqualified. Most of you are talking about how sexism the gaming universe is, only employing "hot models" as booth babes or the face of their game, and while I can admit that's true, what about the flip side of the coin where if a woman is attractive it means that they are unqualified because of their looks?

What is wrong with you people? Don't you see the reverse sexism that's going on here?

Probably because of all these posts, a lot of the girls who tried-out for these parts and were models/cosplayers/actors were likely thrown by the wayside. How about everyone look at credentials first? A lot of the "attractive" women who applied have legit gaming experience to back them up. Isn't that the most important quality above all of the other bullcrap being talked about in this thread? ACTUAL experience? Being attractive as well, with the outgoing personality of an actor, the looks of a model, and the understanding of conventions that cosplayers usually have are just bonuses. CRAZY that they could potentially hire all of the above!

And you know what, being hired based on experience/looks (a healthy dose of both) isn't sexist. It's called life. Unfortunately due to all of this bitching, I don't know if Genesys RPG really gave a lot of the "attractive" girls much of a chance, even though some of their gaming experience rivaled that of the stereotypical nerdy girl, and even in some cases SURPASSED it.


----------



## GameDaddy (Jul 8, 2012)

Yep, I've been following this with interest as well. All the young ladies that applied had to have some experience with, and knowledge of RPG's. I think the pre-judgement and prejudices towards non-gamers in this thread reflects poorly on the RPG community here.

As I originally surmised, South Beach was completely oblivious to the general caterwauling and calls for boycott, and went on with their spectacularly successful event. At least 26 entries now being winnowed down to nine (plus maybe a backup or two).   

...consider also, 1of9 hasn't posted since the original press release. Being a bit more open minded here might have opened up an ongoing dialogue with the gaming company that sponsored this new RPG, it seems now that might be unlikely.

If you really want more RPG gamers etiquette demands one accept them into the fold, and share experiences until a common meaningful dialogue evolves. Just because all of the players are not of the same alignment, doesn't mean they can't all get along for at least long enough to nab the big treasure from the real dragon in the dungeon.

_Just' Sayin_ my peace.


----------



## Dire Bare (Jul 8, 2012)

GameDaddy said:


> Yep, I've been following this with interest as well. All the young ladies that applied had to have some experience with, and knowledge of RPG's. I think the pre-judgement and prejudices towards non-gamers in this thread reflects poorly on the RPG community here.
> 
> As I originally surmised, South Beach was completely oblivious to the general caterwauling and calls for boycott, and went on with their spectacularly successful event. At least 26 entries now being winnowed down to nine (plus maybe a backup or two).
> 
> ...




Heh.  You make it sound like the community here (which, of course, isn't of united opinion on the issue, but whatever) is hating on a particular population of gamers, perhaps "hot chick gamers", rather than a specific company and their marketing choices.

"Open a dialogue"?  Why?  While I wish no one harm or ill luck, whether Genesys succeeds or fails at their new gaming venture isn't all that big of a deal to me.  They are a singular company that used some pretty skeevy marketing (IMO, of course).  And besides, we DID have a dialogue, right in this very thread, with each other and with representatives of Genesys.  While the overall thread opinion seems against Genesys' marketing choices, I think they were treated respectfully and weren't shouted down or shouted at.

Just sayin my peace, too.


----------



## Dire Bare (Jul 8, 2012)

relica said:


> Okay, as a woman some of these posts are really bothering me. I am one of the girls who did apply for the game, made it into the final round, and did not land a part.
> 
> First and foremost, there is nothing wrong with being an "attractive woman" in the gaming universe. Being attractive does NOT mean someone is unqualified. Most of you are talking about how sexism the gaming universe is, only employing "hot models" as booth babes or the face of their game, and while I can admit that's true, what about the flip side of the coin where if a woman is attractive it means that they are unqualified because of their looks?
> 
> ...




I doubt that this post had ANY effect on how Genesys ran their contest, and that's not because I think they are ignoring us, but just because this is one thread on the issue in the wilds of cyberspace.  If the uncomfortableness with Genesys' marketing choices has extended beyond ENWorld here, well, I think that's great, but it would also point to a larger group of folks not liking the 1of9 contest.

And, if you've read this entire thread, you'll find that the majority opinion isn't that "hot chicks aren't real gamers", but rather that Genesys' contest gives off a skeevy vibe.  The reverse sexism we're talking about now just came up the past day or so, and most who've posted have expressed sympathy with Ginny with the treatment she received, not by Genesys, but by another "gamer girl" who is not "traditionally attractive" (or, at least, doesn't perceive herself to be) and has a hate-on for beautiful female gamers.

There's nothing wrong with beautiful women being geeks, gamers, and nerds too, and proudly at that.  But I still stand by my opinion that the marketing and language Genesys used in their 1of9 contest was inappropriate, sends the wrong message, and was just outright skeevy.  I have nothing against any woman who entered the contest (and likely isn't bothered by how Genesys ran and promoted it), "traditionally" beautiful or otherwise.  Well, I do take issue with what Ginny's detractor said about her, but folks say mean things all the time that they really shouldn't, and I'd like to think the woman is an alright person overall.

I haven't been following who entered the contest, who became a finalist, and I won't likely notice when the "9" are chosen.  I don't know how Genesys is making their decisions, whether they are discriminating against non-traditionally beautiful women (like we kinda expected in this thread) or whether in the reverse are discriminating against traditionally beautiful women instead.  But I really, really doubt that me or anyone else being creeped out by the juvenile marketing had any effect on those decisions, and don't feel guilty in the least.


----------



## Lwaxy (Jul 8, 2012)

relica said:


> Probably because of all these posts, a lot of the girls who tried-out for these parts and were models/cosplayers/actors were likely thrown by the wayside. How about everyone look at credentials first? A lot of the "attractive" women who applied have legit gaming experience to back them up. Isn't that the most important quality above all of the other bullcrap being talked about in this thread? ACTUAL experience? Being attractive as well, with the outgoing personality of an actor, the looks of a model, and the understanding of conventions that cosplayers usually have are just bonuses. CRAZY that they could potentially hire all of the above!




I highly doubt anything said here made much of a lasting impression. It is just one thread on one board in the wide labyrinth of cyberspace. 

I didn't follow the contest as it creeped me out somewhat. But now I wonder how the complete composition of their "gamer chicks" will look like. Is there an even distribution of beautiful and not so much attractive? And have some choices been made by what type was already present (which might mean some more qualified might not been picked) or were the decisions totally random? 

Despite the sexist art on their books, if they want to appeal to female gamers, or female wannabe gamers, the key is to represent women of all types. And most of us don't look like models or actors. 

Also, you don't need to look like a model to dress up at cons (I hate the word cosplay, you don't play unless you LARP, you just go there in your costume). I've dressed up for most cons, and in fact some people pick costumes not benefiting their looks at all. 

I can find my way around a convention, thank you, without having to look a model. In fact, I've organized cons and helped others organize them. I've worked in boots before, too. And I'd like to think I did a good job of it. 

If you expect to be taken into consideration first because you look good, then that's just false entitlement. Oh, it might be a reality of life for you because there are way too many people blinded by looks, but I, for one, am glad it is not as bad anymore as it was 10 years ago. 

Yes, one should look at credentials first. Then one needs to consider what mix of people is needed to make a good representation of the average female gamer. I don't know if they did that, I kind of doubt it based on the blog post as Ginny seems more qualified. 

But unless they now rejected every beautiful girl in the contest for "non-traditionally attractive" gamers, I feel there is no need to complain. Because, you know, most of the time people only take a look at the not beautiful people and dismiss them before looking at any credentials at all. So having the table turned around every once in a while is not such a big tragedy.


----------



## GameDaddy (Jul 8, 2012)

Lwaxy said:


> I highly doubt anything said here made much of a lasting impression. It is just one thread on one board in the wide labyrinth of cyberspace.




Enworld is still one of the big three leading forums. Opinions of the members here really count and influence a host of other gamers in smaller fora and gaming communities.




Lwaxy said:


> I didn't follow the contest as it creeped me out somewhat. But now I wonder how the complete composition of their "gamer chicks" will look like. Is there an even distribution of beautiful and not so much attractive? And have some choices been made by what type was already present (which might mean some more qualified might not been picked) or were the decisions totally random?




They probably should have had a larger pool of finalists for the first round to give more of the young ladies a chance to present. Remember the models will be winning a contract for a year to represent one of the nine avatars of the new RPG. While this isn't big in gaming circles, a modeling contract (even a small one) can be a career maker (or a career breaker) in the Modeling Industry. That alone demonstrates to me that this is more of a gamer company than a modeling company that is learning their way through two Industries at once.




Lwaxy said:


> So having the table turned around every once in a while is not such a big tragedy.




D'Oh (slaps forehead), Yes we should just abandon our Inner Geek and dumb ourselves down a notch or two, so we can be more like the common people and express prejudice like everyone else. (NOT!)

Pardon me, however I'm inclined to remain both geeky and smart, and plan to continue in the company of both visually appealing smart geeky women, and plain smart geeky women, for I have discovered that both can be a delight at the gaming table and just wouldn't want to cut out ...say half of female gamers for no other reason than their other outside interests don't necessarily coincide with mine. Be my guest if you want to though, as that will leave more gamers for my table. Do me a favor, and please don't turn them off of gaming.


----------



## Lwaxy (Jul 8, 2012)

What does this have to do with prejudice? Just because I don't consider it a tragedy that the model types are not picked first?  Well, I don't. 

I pick players who fit into the campaigns, what does it matter how they look like? And where did I say it would? 

Please don't put words in my mouth. I have, as obvious from previous posts, no issues with women looking good. I have issues if someone "traditionally beautiful" feels entitled to be picked first. And I have not included Ginny in that either, she obviously knows her way around gaming. 


I know little about modelling except that someone I knew a long time back gave up on it in frustration. I take it the people who applied for the 1of9 thing are not all interested in getting a modelling contract. Are you saying that those who do model consider it more important to succeed here than the others? I can imagine for anyone who gets picked for whatever reason, it is a rather big thing. 

I went and found some of the videos for the event, and I'm merely surprised that a lot of those videos describing themselves do not really mention gaming (although thanks to no sound I could only read the video descriptions). I'm curious as to what the females around here will think about those videos.


----------



## Ginny (Jul 8, 2012)

I have updated the post with links to a lot of what has been happening: Ginny McQueen - Cosplay Girl * Actress * Model* Gamer * Costumer

This is a really great discussion you guys have going, and I'll continue to check in here.

On an unrelated note - does anyone know where I can go to find people to play Shadowrun with in Vegas? I'm all alone here!


----------



## Lwaxy (Jul 8, 2012)

You could try posting in the Games Wanted on here.


----------



## Stacie GmrGrl (Jul 8, 2012)

Ginny said:


> I have updated the post with links to a lot of what has been happening: Ginny McQueen - Cosplay Girl * Actress * Model* Gamer * Costumer
> 
> This is a really great discussion you guys have going, and I'll continue to check in here.
> 
> On an unrelated note - does anyone know where I can go to find people to play Shadowrun with in Vegas? I'm all alone here!




Unfortunately Vegas is pretty far from where I dwell but if I was there playing Shadowrun would be a lot of fun.

Thanks for posting your blog link, first time I ever saw it, and now you have a new fan. Your blog is really cool. 

Regarding this contest, it sucks that another person felt that she had to go out of her way to discredit another for any reason, but basing it on looks just...  why can't people just let people be people.


----------



## Ginny (Jul 8, 2012)

Finalists | Video Contest 1 of the 9 Fates for Genesys RPG - The original FINALISTS page that was deleted

Finalists | Video Contest 1 of the 9 Fates for Genesys RPG - The new FINALISTS page


----------



## Ginny (Jul 8, 2012)

Stacie GmrGrl said:


> Unfortunately Vegas is pretty far from where I dwell but if I was there playing Shadowrun would be a lot of fun.
> 
> Thanks for posting your blog link, first time I ever saw it, and now you have a new fan. Your blog is really cool.
> 
> Regarding this contest, it sucks that another person felt that she had to go out of her way to discredit another for any reason, but basing it on looks just...  why can't people just let people be people.




Thanks! My website is such a mess now and is in the middle of a redesign, so I should have some much better blogs once that's done. I do have a youtube channel with more interesting stuff: Ginny McQueen's Videos - YouTube

This summer marks 14 years of cosplay for me. It's pretty crazy. It's been... weird.


----------



## Lwaxy (Jul 8, 2012)

8 finalists? Aren't they looking for 9 characters?

Seems most of the experience, if any is with dress up, anime and video games. Table top is in the minority.


----------



## Ginny (Jul 8, 2012)

Finalists | Video Contest 1 of the 9 Fates for Genesys RPG - This is the original finalists page before they deleted everyone but 8 girls (6 or 7 from Florida, all East Coast). So clearly they didn't like anyone else for one of the roles and are now claiming they are doing more "casting" (which was originally called a "contest" as evidence by the "contest rules").


----------



## Lwaxy (Jul 8, 2012)

I saw the original list and considering the backgrounds of some, I'd see them as better than a few they finally picked. Oh well.


----------



## Ginny (Jul 8, 2012)

Lwaxy said:


> I saw the original list and considering the backgrounds of some, I'd see them as better than a few they finally picked. Oh well.




It's their company, and they can chose whoever they want. No hard feelings, there. My issue (as was detailed in the blogs and posts I've made) is that they are supporting women who promoted themselves by telling people not to vote for me because "The leading lady right now is, of course, a skinny blonde white girl."

I already made all the points I needed to on my blog, so I won't repeat myself. It's just been a very, very sad experience that women who use tactics like that are rewarded and they company wants them to be seen as a role model and a representative of their company.

Gamer ladies (and men) should be cool to each other, end of story.


----------



## Stacie GmrGrl (Jul 9, 2012)

Ginny said:


> Thanks! My website is such a mess now and is in the middle of a redesign, so I should have some much better blogs once that's done. I do have a youtube channel with more interesting stuff: Ginny McQueen's Videos - YouTube
> 
> This summer marks 14 years of cosplay for me. It's pretty crazy. It's been... weird.




I'll check them out. I like YouTube. Lots of great stuff there.

I've never cosplayed.. never been to a con of any kind to be honest, but I bet they are fun. And weird, and crazy fun all wrapped up in a single event.  

Someday I'll go to a con.


----------



## Dire Bare (Jul 9, 2012)

Ginny said:


> Finalists | Video Contest 1 of the 9 Fates for Genesys RPG - This is the original finalists page before they deleted everyone but 8 girls (6 or 7 from Florida, all East Coast). So clearly they didn't like anyone else for one of the roles and are now claiming they are doing more "casting" (which was originally called a "contest" as evidence by the "contest rules").




A few notes on the developing situation, that I am not following all that closely yet will post about anyway (hey!  it's the internets!).  Ginny, you clearly stated that a Genesys employee was extremely rude to many of the girls at the casting call, and I totally buy that.  This entire operation hasn't been all that professional, IMO.  

But you seem to be referring to Monica (the girl who slammed you for being pretty) as a Genesys representative too (correct me if I'm wrong) . . . . she isn't.  At least, she isn't yet.  She's a contestant who bad-mouthed another contestant.  Which is very different from a company rep bad-mouthing a contestant.  Is Genesys even aware of her slam at you?  I'd consider it a blackmark against Monica if I were in charge, but I wouldn't necessarily drop her as a contestant because of it.  But I'd make sure she new that would not be acceptable once (if) she becomes a rep of my company.

I'm not impressed with Genesys, their marketing, and the unprofessional way they seem to be running their "contest".  And if I had voted, I'd of voted for you, as you seem to embody what Genesys states they are looking for (and, after reading your blog a bit, I like you).  And after reading Monica's comments and watching her entrant video, that woman annoys me.  But I also think I'm sensing a combination of irritation at the unprofessionalism and a little bit of sour grapes by unfairly associating a contestent as a company representative.

And, like Lwaxy (I think we are on the same wavelength, maybe), I'm definitely getting a sour grapes vibe from some of the other folks who have posted in this thread about not making the finals.  Which has nothing to do with Ginny, but adds to the tone our discussion has taken.

Then again, I could have totally misunderstood some of your posts and blog entries, and be way off base.  And, of course, also misunderstood some of the other posters above.  If so, I apologize.


----------



## Elf Witch (Jul 9, 2012)

relica said:


> Okay, as a woman some of these posts are really bothering me. I am one of the girls who did apply for the game, made it into the final round, and did not land a part.
> 
> First and foremost, there is nothing wrong with being an "attractive woman" in the gaming universe. Being attractive does NOT mean someone is unqualified. Most of you are talking about how sexism the gaming universe is, only employing "hot models" as booth babes or the face of their game, and while I can admit that's true, what about the flip side of the coin where if a woman is attractive it means that they are unqualified because of their looks?
> 
> ...




 You say you read this thread but I think you missed the point of what was being said. No one said anything about it being bad to be attractive or that gamer woman can't be attractive. What bother most of us was the language involved hot foxy gamer girls. You can't use words that have a meaning and then say but that is not what we mean. 

Instead of using any words about looks it would have been nice to see them advertise for gamer woman period looks should never have come into it.


----------



## Elf Witch (Jul 9, 2012)

GameDaddy said:


> Yep, I've been following this with interest as well. All the young ladies that applied had to have some experience with, and knowledge of RPG's. I think the pre-judgement and prejudices towards non-gamers in this thread reflects poorly on the RPG community here.
> 
> As I originally surmised, South Beach was completely oblivious to the general caterwauling and calls for boycott, and went on with their spectacularly successful event. At least 26 entries now being winnowed down to nine (plus maybe a backup or two).
> 
> ...




Nobody was caterwauling how rude to dismiss our thoughts on this subject.

Nobody was calling for a boycott what was said that the way the event was advertised  was a turn off for some of us and might make us think twice about eventually purchasing the product. 

You should try and practice what you preach and be a little more opened minded about dissenting opinions.


----------



## Ginny (Jul 9, 2012)

Dire Bare said:


> But you seem to be referring to Monica (the girl who slammed you for being pretty) as a Genesys representative too (correct me if I'm wrong) . . . . she isn't.  At least, she isn't yet.  She's a contestant who bad-mouthed another contestant.  Which is very different from a company rep bad-mouthing a contestant.




Yes, Monica is in fact chosen as a rep. If you check my blog about it, you can see that myself and the other many qualified girls were kicked out (I posted the altered "finalists" as well as their revised one) and those 8 left are their chosen reps. So she is representing them. I also linked to their facebook where many, many people are asking them to disclose what happened and have brought this to their attention.

There are people claiming things like "auditions" and "casting" but first they called it a "contest" and secondly no one had an audition. I know, because I'm a theatre major. Plus 6 or 7 out of the 8 chosen are from Florida, where the company is so it's looking pretty fishy regardless.


----------



## Jon_Dahl (Jul 9, 2012)

I think this would have been a good idea, if it had been fifty-fifty male and female gamers. Now it's pretty sexist because it's only women.
Personally I would have been curious about how handsome male-gamers are out there. Maybe one of the could have been blown all these girls of the water with his looks 

Marketing is very visual and if you lack creativity, trying to hire beautiful people just to pose is ok. But I just hope they would have gone fifty-fifty...


----------



## relica (Jul 9, 2012)

Lwaxy said:


> What does this have to do with prejudice? Just because I don't consider it a tragedy that the model types are not picked first?  Well, I don't.
> 
> I pick players who fit into the campaigns, what does it matter how they look like? And where did I say it would?
> 
> ...




I'm not here to perpetuate a really dumb subargument. I said my piece earlier, but I do feel the need to correct you on a few things.

1) I never said attractive girls should be picked first. You completely missed the point of my first post. The entire point of it was to say that it doesn't matter WHAT people look like on the outside, it's their credentials that matter first. But the fact that looks perhaps added to the casting process isn't unheard of. It's obvious that they wanted the whole package, and there's nothing wrong with that.

2) I don't know about other girls, but I didn't enter into the contest looking for a modeling contract. There are other, far better/easier ways of getting a modeling contract. I really don't know where you got that, or why you felt the need to mention it considering it has nothing to do with the argument at hand.

3) Maybe you should actually WATCH the videos first before you sit there and say "Oh a lot of those videos describing themselves do not really mention gaming". In the videos, one of the questions was asking about RPG experience, or what your favorite RPGs are. Some girls chose to put their experience in the text box, others just chose to talk about it. Granted, you said you had no sound, but instead of throwing out yet another false claim, maybe you should have verified it first with sound so you know what you're talking about.

Whole point of my argument before was that the girls should have been picked based on their game cred first. That's the most important. But if looks & personality played a factor too, there's nothing wrong with that. Just because there were "hot cosplaying models" who applied, doesn't make them any less worthy for the spots simply because they are models. 

Personally (and hypothetically), if I were one of the cosplaying girls who had years and years of gaming experience I'd be completely offended by people just saying "Oh, seems they just want to exploit hot chicks." Or maybe they wanted a hot chick who had awesome gaming credentials plus cosplay experience plus modeling experience too.

But alas, who really knows what they wanted? Who really cares anymore?


----------



## TanithT (Jul 14, 2012)

Ginny said:


> If you would, please have a look at this blog. It highlights exactly what is wrong with the gaming community when it comes to females. Thanks.
> 
> It's amazing that women in the geek community can act like this and be rewarded. bit.ly/OECqUp




Ginny,

I'm sorry you had that experience; you sound like an amply qualified gamer geek.

However, it is not unreasonable for the gaming community to encourage companies to present more balanced representations of women that do not focus so much on conventional physical attractiveness.  I don't honestly see anything wrong with asking for a wider spectrum of representation that shows women of different looks and ages, including non model types.  

It sucks that you, personally, may have lost out here because you *are* a conventionally attractive model type.  Sometimes representation jobs are like that, if there is legitimately a need for a different kind of representation than you can provide.  And there is, legitimately, that need. 

Given your geek cred I personally would have been okay with your winning.  But I still would have been annoyed if the only people who won were model types.  I do not think that would have been a fair or reasonable representation of female gamers, nor would I be willing to believe that geek cred or gaming experience had very much to do with their selection.   

As it is, I'm not nearly as annoyed with the finalists as I thought I would be, as at least some individuals are included who are not showing themselves as model types or in model poses, sexy/pretty clothing, etc.  

One of the things I like very much about Monica is that it is absolutely clear that she is presenting herself as a serious gamer who is here for gaming, not a pretty face and body that can be used to sell stuff.  That's a lot more than I expected given the language of their press release.  The "Here is a serious gamer who is here to game, NOT to dress up and look pretty" message goes a very long way towards a better representation *and better treatment* for women in our community.  That is true regardless of what they happen to look like physically.  

I'm okay with how she campaigned to be taken seriously as a gamer, without even trying for model looks or cute clothes.  I'm okay with her asking folks to help show Genesys that we want better representation for more serious looking, non model types.  I'm less okay with her targeting you personally, but in fairness, I agree that there are indeed legitimate social issues when it comes to having the most traditional model type (skinny white blonde specifically) representing female gamers in our community.  

It's not that gamer women who happen to be skinny white blondes should automatically lose their nerd cred.  That's not fair either.  I remember what happened when I went to a gaming con without stopping at home to dress down from another occasion, and how I was treated because I looked conventionally pretty.  That wasn't fun.  I got ignored and disrespected, and either avoided or treated like a category of "hot chick" rather than like another gamer.  I ditched the decor for a ratty t-shirt and jeans as quickly as possible, lost the makeup, swapped my contacts for nice thick nerdy glasses, wrecked my 'do, and then I got much better treatment.  So I do know how that feels, and no, it's not fair to you at all.

Neither is the fact that in mainstream culture, skinny blonde white women are so often held up to us as the default model that it's turned seriously toxic.  Girls develop eating disorders and commit suicide because they feel so heavily pressured to look like this perfect ideal.  And that's not good either, for a pretty epic value of not good.  Girls are taught that they have no value except for the prettiness of their faces and bodies, and how pleasing they can make themselves to other people's gaze.  The toxic effects of this on girls and on the women they become are widespread and deeply harmful.  

I can not fault people for speaking out against this as the default model, and encouraging companies to make different and more varied choices, especially choices that explicitly do not show women as being valued for how they look or what they wear.

None of this is fair or good.  None of it, not on either side.  I don't have any more comforting words than that, unfortunately.

And, Ginny?  I respect YOUR right to refer to yourself as a girl, if that is how you personally choose to identify, but the rest of us are women unless we are actually girls.  As in, minor children.  I am not a child, and I do not like being referred to in the general language of "gamer girls" or "geek girls" if you are not actually talking about minors.  Thank you for respecting that.


----------



## Lwaxy (Jul 18, 2012)

relica said:


> 2) I don't know about other girls, but I didn't enter into the contest looking for a modeling contract. There are other, far better/easier ways of getting a modeling contract. I really don't know where you got that, or why you felt the need to mention it considering it has nothing to do with the argument at hand.




If you had paid attention you'd seen I was replying to someone who mentioned it. I didn't bring it up, it wouldn't even have occurred to me. I have no clue why you think I brought it up, when I know as good as nothing about modelling. 



> Some girls chose to put their experience in the text box, others just chose to talk about it. Granted, you said you had no sound, but instead of throwing out yet another false claim, maybe you should have verified it first with sound so you know what you're talking about.




I don't have sound, period. I guess I'm not the only one, or that people watch from work etc where they need to mute sound. Gaming experience info is probably what most people look first for.  Some videos had no info at all, but from those which did, not to mention gaming at all is more like putting it in the background.


----------



## 13garth13 (Nov 18, 2012)

reported

Cheers,
Colin


----------

