# [OOC] The Endless Falls Character Discussion Thread



## Ferrix (Nov 11, 2004)

This is the place for the character/player discussions to carry on without driving Isida to the brink of insanity, or well give her that tiny nudge to push her over.

Proceed.


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## Ferrix (Nov 11, 2004)

Just something to that sparked some cogs in my head was Arion's breakdown of saves, so I figured I'd go ahead and make a rough sketch of the places where characters focused.  This is stuff only provided by equipment, not classes, etc.  Although some of that line is blurred with the cheese that is the way the monk's belt is interpreted.

*Rahveon*
Attribute Bonuses: +6 +6 +11 +6 +6; +5 +5 +5 +5 +4 +4 +2 +2 +2 = +69
Save Bonuses: +2 +1 +1 +1ref +5 = +9/(+1)
Armor Bonuses: +1 armor (+8 abilities) +5 +1 +4 = +19
Weapon Bonuses: +6 weapon, +2 weapon, +1 hit, +1 +3 = +13
Specific Skill Bonuses: +10
Universal Skill Bonuses: +2 +1 +1 = +4
Immunities: Criticals & Sneak Attacks, death spells, death effects, energy drain and negative energy effects
Constant Powers: True seeing, Haste, Righteous Might, Reduce Person
Other: 5th level monk abilities, sustenance, adaptation, +2 +1 ability checks, teleport at will, mind blank 1/day, commune 1/day, spell turning 3/day, DR 3/evil

*Sigrún*
Attribute Bonuses: +4 +4 +4 +4 +4 +5; +6 +6 +6 +6 +6 +6 = +61
Save Bonuses: +5 +5 +4 = +14
Armor Bonuses: +5 armor (+4 abilities) +5 +5 = +19
Weapon Bonuses: +2 ray (+50% dmg), +1-5 weapon = +3-7
Universal Skill Bonuses: 
Specific Skill Bonuses: +30 +10 = +40
Immunities: Criticals & sneak attacks, death spells, death effects, energy drain
Constant Powers: True seeing, Freedom of Movement, deathward, Hustle
Other: True Resurrection 1/month, Evasion, +275pp; 3 powers, -4pp, +2 DC?s, +3 manifester level, +2 penetration, adaptation

*Pilmer*
Attribute Bonuses: +5 +5 +5 +5 +5; +12 +6 +4 +6 +4 = +57
Save Bonuses: +5 +6 +3 = +14
Armor Bonuses: +8 +5 +5 +5 +4 +8 +1 = +36
Weapon Bonuses: +5 weapon +3 = +8
Specific Skill Bonuses: +30 +30 +30 +30 +30 +10 +10 +10 +10 +10 +10 +10 = +220
Universal Skill Bonuses: +3 = +3
Immunities: death spells, death effects, energy drain
Constant Powers: Death Ward, Blur, Nondetection
Other: adaptation, sustenance, monks belt, wizardry 1, wings of flying, +2 caster level, +3 ability checks, can?t be flanked, retains dex to AC, 120 ft. darkvision, sees all invisible and ethereal things, all around vision, +2 penetration, +2 DC?s

*Arion*
Attribute Bonuses: +5 +5 +5 +5 +5 +5; +6 +6 +6 +6 +6 = +60
Save Bonuses: +5 +5 +2 = +12
Armor Bonuses: +5 +5 +1 +8 +5 = +24
Weapon Bonuses: +5/+11 weapon +3 = +8/14
Specific Skill Bonuses: +5 +10x7 +11x7 = +152
Universal Skill Bonuses: +3 = +3
Immunities:
Constant Powers:
Other: Spring & striding + haste, throwing, +3 ability checks, regenerate ring, deflect arrows, snatch arrows, improved kuji-kiri, bardic music abilities, 25 personal pocket dimensions, 5th level monk, silent image at will, astrally travel, six +5 shuriken, +3 caster level, Akumunaga (artifacty)

Don?t know: crown of mastery, rod of disguise, orb of illusory power

*Solarian*
Attribute Bonuses: +5 +5 +4 +4 +4 +4; +6 +6 +6 +4 +12 +6 = +66
Save Bonuses: +1 +1 +4 = +6
Armor Bonuses: +8 +5 +1 +17monk +5 = +19/26
Weapon Bonuses: +5 weapon +1 +4 +1 +3 = +14
Specific Skill Bonuses:
Universal Skill Bonuses: +1 +4 +1 = +6
Immunities: electricity, petrification, fire, sonic, death effects/spells, energy drain, crits/sneak attacks, immune to fear
Constant Powers: Disguise self, True Seeing, Greater Heroism
Other: acid & cold resistance, bow of solars, efficient quiver, +1 ability checks, +3 caster level, +13 tmp HP,


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## Kelleris (Nov 11, 2004)

Hmm...  I was thinking more of a one-at-a-time, hammer-this-out approach (more systematic than just wandering around as things strike us).  I'm rather hoping that you (pl) will raise whatever things about Arion annoy you.  I'd like to have an unobjectionable character before anyone starts to hate me.    

Anyway.  For my items:

The lesser crown of mastery grants a +4 circumstance bonus to all skill checks, in the same manner that the circlet of persuasion affects charism-based checks.

The rod of disguise is simply a standard metamagic rod of Disguise Spell.

The orb of illusory power acts as the material component for any illusion spell you cast, and grants a +2 bouns to the save DCs of Illusion school spells.

What conclusions do you draw from that, Ferrix?

Also, didn't Sigrun have a continuous touchsight?


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## Ferrix (Nov 11, 2004)

Well, it can easily be a one-at-a-time thing, I just figured I'd give at least a basic comprehensive view of where people invested a lot of item resources.

So far I haven't drawn any conclusions on that information yet beyond mere observation.

Oops, missed that, although I did omit probably more than just that on multiple occasions for more than one character.


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## Kelleris (Nov 11, 2004)

Ah.  Well, can hardly call you for missing something on an epic character.  So complicated...  

That's not a bad way to start, actually.  A similar breakdown of classes and feats would also be useful:

Arion
Classes: Bard 22, Ex-assassin 5, Duelist 1 (3.0), Shadowdancer 1
Race: Helps rogue minor, helps arcane casting medium (LA 2)
Number warrior: 15 (half rogue-classes, duelist)
Number skill-user/rogue: 28
Number arcane/psionic casting: 13 (half bard, one-third assassin)
Number divine casting: 0
Combat feats: 9 of 15 (1 epic - dodge, weapon finesse, combat expertise, mobility, weapon focus, arcane strike, combat reflexes, single blade style, battle dance)
Skill feats: 2 of 15 (1 epic - permanent emanation (zone of silence), obscure lore)
Magic-related feats: 2 of 15 (1 epic - practiced spellcaster, weaver of symphonies)
General feats: 2 of 15 (item familiar, craft masterpiece performance)
Highest 3 stats: Int > Cha > Dex


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## Ferrix (Nov 11, 2004)

Mind doing some grunt work on the other characters as well?


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## Kelleris (Nov 11, 2004)

No, I don't mind a bit, but you'll have to give me until tomorrow.  Unfinished German homework calls me.    

Does that breakdown look good to you?


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## Ferrix (Nov 11, 2004)

Only thing that might need clarifying is the number class-type thing.

German homework... enjoy... it's time for bed if I want to get up and do capoeira effectively in the morning.


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## Rikandur Azebol (Nov 11, 2004)

I will watch Your disscusion with great interest.


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## Zack2216 (Nov 11, 2004)

Rikandur Azebol said:
			
		

> I will watch Your disscusion with great interest.




I agree. If you need explanation on how wild surge/surging euphoria works, just say so.


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## Wrahn (Nov 11, 2004)

Kelleris said:
			
		

> Number arcane/psionic casting: 13 (half bard, one-third assassin)




Shouldn't bard be 2/3?  6th level spells being 2/3 of 9th level.  just a thought.


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## Wrahn (Nov 11, 2004)

I don't believe a line by line comparison of characters is meaningful.  I would submit that there are three areas where we should compare characters.  Those being Offense, Defense and Non-Combat.  For the time being I will only be comparing the 5 active characters (Rahveon, Solarian, Arion, Sigrun and Caria)

Offense:

You will note that I give casters a lot of respect, that is because they deserve a lot of respect, they can dish out tremendous amounts of damage very quickly

1. Sigrun: Summoning Hordes of extremely powerful constructs in addition to a full range of psionic abilities, make the Arcitect the heavy hitter of our little cadre.

2. Caria: Lesser summoning abilities than Sigrun, but still impressive none the less.  I feel Solarian and Caria are very close, but Loudbark I think pushes her over.

3. Solarian:  Competent Melee combatant with a wide mixture of quickened spells.  Solarian can get offensive very quickly.

4. Rahveon:  Against something not immune to criticals, Rahveon is very dangerous.  Otherwise he hits very hard.

5. Arion:  No slouch in combat, only getting 3 attacks hurts, but arcane strike and a massive amount of Con damage can rapidly change the situation.

Defense:

1. Solarian:  High AC, Spell Resistance, Host of Immunities, best saves in the group, no doubt who has the best defenses.

2. Rahveon: Saves + Hit Points

3. Arion:  Not being seen is a very potent defense + high AC

4. Caria: With a high Spell Resistance I would rate her higher, but like Loudbark adding to her offense, he can be a liability in her defense

5. Sigrun: As powerful as Sigrun is offensively, he suffers from it defensively, he has a host of abilities which will increase his defenses, but they leave him hampered with his offense.  Low AC and Low hit points, even in the best of circumstances, can leave you exposed.

Non-Combat:

1. Arion:  Massive skills + bardic knowledge

2. Caria:  A massive array of spells, almost on the same footing as Solarian, but the floating 500xp really helps

3. Solarian:  Same Reason as Caria, divine spell casters get a massive array of spells.

4. Sigrun:  Not to say he isn't useful outside of combat, he has a host of very useful abilities, but the psions weakness is the lack of breadth in their abilities.

5. Rahveon: A few items, no real appreciable skills, Rahveon sits at the bottom of this catagory.


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## perivas (Nov 11, 2004)

Ferrix said:
			
		

> Just something to that sparked some cogs in my head was Arion's breakdown of saves, so I figured I'd go ahead and make a rough sketch of the places where characters focused.  This is stuff only provided by equipment, not classes, etc.  Although some of that line is blurred with the cheese that is the way the monk's belt is interpreted.




Now I feel excluded!  Just kidding.

Wrahn, I'm surprised that you think Caira is so good in all areas...although I must admit that being able to summon 21st level arcane casters is impressive!


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## Ferrix (Nov 11, 2004)

The reason I did a line by line comparison was not in relation to the characters abilities, but rather in the relation of where the players put the characters money.  Which is a very different thing, although it plays into the characters ability.  I think Kelleris' analysis is one way to approach it, and yours another.  A by the numbers approach as Kelleris' has done is good for supporting Wrahn's more descriptive analysis.

Also, like any "caster" Sigrun is not so great defensively unless he has a few rounds to prepare, in which case he's got more than enough to keep him going.  Particularly if he has time to create an astral construct (not summoning exactly) and use his assume construct feat in conjunction to encase himself within it for his own protection and some good melee power.

More comments later.


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## Ferrix (Nov 11, 2004)

perivas said:
			
		

> Now I feel excluded!  Just kidding.
> 
> Wrahn, I'm surprised that you think Caira is so good in all areas...although I must admit that being able to summon 21st level arcane casters is impressive!




A monk's belt would have been one the "best" investments you could have made cheese wise, although you'll note not everyone took that option.


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## Wrahn (Nov 11, 2004)

Actually it depends on your Dex and Wisdom, On Rahveon it gave him one Armor class, but was overall less expensive and it seems cooler that he is unarmored finesse fighter than a heavily armored trudge through it kind of fighter.  Either would be okay, but I like the lightly armored one better.

And about the Monk's Belt, I agree it is very cheap for what it does.  I read it up and down but the only conclusion I came to was that was what they meant.

For Solarion, however, wow, that made his AC go through the roof.


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## Wrahn (Nov 11, 2004)

Another thing to consider, in PbP game, generally speaking combats take a long time, Epic only makes it worse.  I am imagining that combat is going to be rare (I hope so for Isida's sake).  That mean the Non-Combat stuff is probably going to be more relevant than the combat stuff.

I was not trying to weigh anything as being more important than the others, but that is my general assessment of it.  (Which might lead on to ask, why did you build a combat monster character, to which I can only respond, that is what I like.  Big, strong tough characters)


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## Kelleris (Nov 11, 2004)

Actually, I was doing my line-by-line thing as a prelude to doing exactly what you did, Wrahn.  I agree with your assessment of bardic spellcasting as probably being at 2/3 per level, though.  Should I go ahead and finish up the breakdown I started, everyone?

Wrahn - Interesting look at the characters.  Some comments:

I think Solarion is the better offense character, over Caira.  Loudbark is useful for tactical support, but I just don't seem him doing much more than a high-level summon spell in pure offense.  He's also something of a liability in that he needs to be put into a melee situation where he can contribute, but not be the brunt of attention.

And, actually, I would put Rahveon over Caira as well.  The combination of Devastating/Overwhelming Critical is ridiculously lethal, since your strength is so high.  Also, saves are, at this level, a major part of getting something done even in melee; most wizards and most powerful monsters have some kind of blanket attack that quickly deals with messes of weak characters.  Extremely good saves make those not an issue, so while Caira's creatures and Sigrun's constructs are getting pulverized by the dragon's breath weapon, you and Solarion will just be glad they're using weaker area attacks instead of concentrating on you.  Perhaps it would be different if it was a look at a series of one-person "parties", but I think in the context of the party Rahveon and Solarion will be more effective than otherwise.

Also, I would put Sigrun in the 3rd-place non-combat slot.  His skills are actually quite decent, including a good number of knowleges, one of which is higher than my bardic knowledge check.  Additionally, psions have the advantage in spell conditions; he can cast in uncomfortable situations, or when talking to someone, for instance.  Additionally, two catsers with full divine are largely redundant; generally it is only the better of the two that will be in a really good position to do their thing.  Also, Solarion's usual spell list is so focused on hurtin' people that I don't see him putting much utility there unless we already know we'll need it.

Speaking of which, I assume those "open" slots are for OneAboveAll to fill in, and not simply slots that haven't been prepared yet?  Divine casters have one time of day (dawn, I assume, for this guy) that they prepare their spells, and that's it.  They can't do the wizard piecemeal preparation thing.

And something that's been bothering me.  Perivas, you have a druid worshipper of the Green Goddess who also studies alien entities beyong space and time.  Huh?

But, aside from trying to wrap my head around that bizarreness, you need to indicate somewhere what she's irrationally afraid of.  It's a part of the alienist class, along with the wisdom hit.

Also, we should add Su'ryuu to our discussion here, now that Zack's been added to the game.


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## Ferrix (Nov 12, 2004)

Zack's character has some errors in the creation process.

The first level adjustment buy off should have cost him 11,000xp rather than 8,000xp.  As it's ECL-1x1000, he didn't include the half-dragon LA in his ECL which he should have.  This would put him at ECL 29, with 27 wilder levels and 2 LA.  Why he didn't buy off all of his LA I don't know.

He also has too many power points.

Although I had a question, does a character who has entered epic progression with a level adjustment as Su'ryuu does continue to gain the last two power point increases and powers known of the wilder even though the wilder does not again additional power points or powers known in epic levels?  Thus when he attains ECL 21, he gains his 19th wilder level, does he gain those 31pp?  And when he attains ECL 22, he gains his 20th wilder level, does he gain those 32pp and another power?

Even if he does, he should only have 532 power points, not 875.  343 from wilder 20, and 189 from having a manifester level of 27 with a +14 charisma modifier.

Also the cost of six +5 tomes should be 825,000gp, not 820200gp, which puts him over the limit of 4,300,000gp to spend by 4,760gp.


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## perivas (Nov 12, 2004)

Kelleris said:
			
		

> And something that's been bothering me.  Perivas, you have a druid worshipper of the Green Goddess who also studies alien entities beyong space and time.  Huh?




She's not exactly...well, actually, only minimally similar to...a druid.  She's a cleric of a powerful nature-loving deity.  (There are a lot of those whose worshippers are not druids.)  Now, if you are a powerful cleric and wanted to talk to your god and his/her messengers in person...you head off to the Outer Planes...where you don't always meet your god first.  So, you start talking with some of these outsiders from beyond and discover the nature of things are not so simple.  (It's not just you/angels/gods, but you/angels/gods and others/other's angels/other's gods and parallel universe-you/parallel-universe angels/parallel-universe gods and distant outsiders from beyond/distant outer plane angels from beyond/your own god!)  You come to understand the role that gods at the Outer Planes have in the scheme of things...but you don't end up abandoning your god.  Sometimes, things get a little crazy out there for the fragile mortal mind...that's when you end up with someone like Caira.


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## Ferrix (Nov 12, 2004)

Su'ryuu also can't take exotic weapon proficiency at level 1, but if he just switches it with empower power, then there's no problem.

Also his skills are off, he should have 255 skill points at Wilder level 27, ECL 29, he has listed 310 skill points.  He retroactively figured the inherent bonus of +5 which is only available at the earliest of ECL 14 with the amount of money available for a character of that level.  [cheese]255 skill points is the most you can get if you buy the tome at ECL 14.[/cheese]

It also might be more wise to spread out the characters wealth, you have it clumped into four incredibly expensive items (your epic enhancement bonus items and your sword).  These four items take up about 75% of your wealth.


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## Zack2216 (Nov 12, 2004)

Skill points: corrected
Equipment: corrected (shrunk ring of resistance down to +4)
Power point total: corrected

About my ecl, I had assumed that I would've been able to drop it at ecl 9, not class level 9, and forgot to read the example, which explains it in detail. 
 

 So, after doing some math, I found that if I do dump that 45 k exp to get rid of the ecl, I do come out to 28th level. Beforehand, I didn't do the math to determine which route would be better. So, I still get to stay level 28 wilder wise, and the last 31 pp thing isn't an issue. So, no real change, other then my ecl. 

My pp, I don't know. Just same bad calculator math on my part. Probably forgot to divide by 2 somewhere. Also, after re-reading the epic power point/manifester level progression, several times, I figured that the character doesn't get bonus power points per manifester level after 20, and recaclulated thusly, because the book stated that no bonus power points are gained after 20. I mean, unless there was a ruling somewhere (crosses fingers).

Also, what would you have suggested equipment wise?


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## Wrahn (Nov 12, 2004)

I am trying to understand the buying down the LA thing, this is how I understand it:

The earliest you can buy an ECL off is 3 x the ECL number so for ECL 4 you could buy it off at 12, 21, 27 and 30.  The formula for figuring out how much EXP it cost is the current level plus the current ECL minus one and then take the total times a thousand.  So to buy off the entirety of the ECL of 4 would take 96,000 experience and would require 501,000 xp total (so they could have reached level 30 and bought off the last level, delevelling back to 28 a thousand XP away from 29.)

So for the math geeks amoung us:

```
LA 4

((LA x 3) + (LA) - 1) x 1,000 = 15,000
((LA x 3 + (LA - 1) x 3) + (LA -1) - 1) x 1,000 = 23,000
((LA x 3 + (LA - 1) x 3 + (LA - 2) x 3) + (LA - 2) - 1) x 1,000 = 28,000
((LA x 3 + (LA - 1) x 3 + (LA - 2) x 3 + (LA - 3) x 3) + (LA - 3) - 1) x 1,000 = 30,000

Total of 96,000

So to simplify:

1000(4LA - 1) +
1000(7LA - 5) +
1000(10LA - 12) +
1000(13LA - 22) 

or

34,000LA - 40,000
```

By my Estimation that would make Su'ryuu a 27th level character, a 1,000 XP from 28 with 1 ECL or a 26th level caster


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## Wrahn (Nov 12, 2004)

Kelleris said:
			
		

> Actually, I was doing my line-by-line thing as a prelude to doing exactly what you did, Wrahn.  I agree with your assessment of bardic spellcasting as probably being at 2/3 per level, though.  Should I go ahead and finish up the breakdown I started, everyone?
> 
> Wrahn - Interesting look at the characters.  Some comments:
> 
> ...




Su'ryuu is in the process of being modified, let's wait till we see a final version.

The reason I value clerics so highly in Non-combat situations is the VAST array of spells, particularly divinations that they have.  While I am not saying Sigrun is useless in Non-combat situations (far from it), what I am saying is that the versatility of the clerics spells, it is difficult to compete with just skills.  The more books that they have access to, the more powerful they become.

Having actually played in an epic game, I can assure you, anything that we fight that is suppose to challenge us will be immune to criticals.  They have to be, have you ever seen a high level rogue go to town on someting?  Ever seen a vorpal sword going snicker-snack?

So while mooks and the like will probably be sown like wheat, the BBEGs (which more than likely are going to be gods which are automatically immune to criticals according to dieties and demigods) are going to have to be dealt with the old fashion way.  Which is why I would rank Rahveon low on offensive, that and because as Ferrix said, casters have a lot of tricks up their sleeves.

Which is why I listed Arion the lowest, even though the +12 to Hit and +6d6 damage per swing is impressive with arcane strike, the BBEGs are going to be able to neutralize him, either by keeping him busy with something else or keeping him away.

As far as Caria goes, my theory here is that Loudbark is nearly the combatant that Solarian is, and Caria is at least equal to him in spell casting, but two people get more actions than one, which is why I placed them higher than Solarian offensively.  I did count Loudbark against her in her defense.

As far as Sigruns special defenses go, yes they are impressive, but they can also be foiled and then Sigrun is screwed, he also can't cast when he is in the big astral construct (if I remember correctly) hampering his offense.


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## Ferrix (Nov 12, 2004)

Half-dragon LA is +3... just a note before I'm off for the weekend.

And reread the assume construct feat, he can manifest powers, it's just as if he's behind a wall of ectoplasm (and would therefore need to use burrowing power or something like that) although he does have line of sight.


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## Wrahn (Nov 12, 2004)

Yeah, the +3 LA would explain that .

Still going through it, I do have a question.  Let's say I have a LA of 2 (which I do, but that is irrelevant).  At sixth level I buy off an LA for 7,000xp which means I delevel to 4th level.  Do I then start counting from 4th level, so at 7th level I buy off the last LA (having earned 3 more levels)?

Or does this work like some kind of XP sink.  I reach 6th level and say I want to buy off an LA, so the next 7,000 xp I earn go toward buying off the LA?


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## Wrahn (Nov 12, 2004)

Zack-

Most of this is at least partially cheesy so take it with a grain of salt (or a shot of tequila, your choice)

If you don't mind being Large (-1 to hit, AC, -1 to certain skills)

*Belt of Titanic Power*: Continuous Righteous Might, +6 Enhancement to Strength, +6 Enhancement to Con 468,000

(Size = Large +4 Size Bonus to Strength, +6 Enhancement Bonus to Strength, +6 Enhancement Bonus to Con, +2 Size Bonus to Con, 3/Good Damage Reduction, +4 Enhancement to Natural Armor)

This does the same thing as the Belt of epic strength and the bracers of epic health, plus a few other things.

The Boots of Swiftness are not a good bang for your buck.

120,000 Boots of Continuous Haste (+30 ft of movement, +1 to attack, AC and Reflex saves, an additional attack at highest attack bonus)
25,000 Ring of Evasion
36,000 +6 Gloves of Dexterity
35,000 Ring: +10 Insight Bonus on Tumble, +10 Competence Bonus on Tumble
35,000 Bracer: +10 Insight Bonus on Balance, +10 Competence Bonus on Balance

251,000 only saving you 5k and you lose out on the jump and climb bonuses, but it gives you combat bonuses through haste.

You should really consider the Rod of Splendor, it only gives +8 Charisma but is only 250k ish and doesn't take an items slot.

more later


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## Wrahn (Nov 12, 2004)

Zack-

Is the dwarven Urgosh you list Shadowfell as being an urgrosh?


			
				3.5 SRD said:
			
		

> Urgrosh, Dwarven: A dwarven urgrosh is a double weapon. You can fight with it as if fighting with two weapons, but if you do, you incur all the normal attack penalties associated with fighting with two weapons, just as if you were using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. The urgrosh’s axe head is a slashing weapon that deals 1d8 points of damage. Its spear head is a piercing weapon that deals 1d6 points of damage. You can use either head as the primary weapon. The other is the off-hand weapon. A creature wielding a dwarven urgrosh in one hand can’t use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.
> 
> If you use a ready action to set an urgrosh against a charge, you deal double damage if you score a hit against a charging character. If you use an urgrosh against a charging character, the spear head is the part of the weapon that deals damage.
> 
> Dwarves treat dwarven urgroshes as martial weapons.




If it is the damage you list is a little wonky:

Full Attack: Shadowfell +34/+29/+24, 2d8+27 and 3 con damage and 2d4 negative levels; and bite +28, 1d6+7

I am assuming you are making your weapon +6 with metaphysical weapon, but where are you getting 2d8, the Urgrosh is a double weapon (and a weak one at that) its damage is 1d8/1d6.  You don't have two weapon fighting so you are at -6 to hit with it, the damage bonus is wrong since it is treated as a one handed medium weapon and a one handed light.

If the urgosh is the urgrosh then (as far as I can tell) it looks like this:

+28/+28/+23/+18 for 1d8 + 20 primary and 1d6 + 13 offhand

The cost is wrong as well.  As it requires enchantment of both heads of the weapon effectively doubling the cost.

I am going to guess you were looking at the Fullblade or the Mecurial Greatsword (though I believe the Mecurial Greatsword has been errataed, can't remember specifically what was done to it)


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## Wrahn (Nov 12, 2004)

Zack-

Isn't your Inertial Armor Bonus too high?  (1 Base(4) + 26 (13))=27 and +17 armor bonus.

Don't mean to be picking on you, it is actually kind of a question, we don't use Psionic as they are written in my home game.


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## Kelleris (Nov 12, 2004)

Continuous _righteous might_?

Urgh...  Well, let's see what the final numbers look like.

And could someone please tell me how Su'ryuu's weapon does 3 Con damage and 2d4 negative levels with no save per hit, and only costs a half-million gold?      And then gives her 2d4 x 5 temporary hit points?

I'm gonna start demanding a discount for Akumunaga at this rate...    

*shakes fist angrily*


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## Wrahn (Nov 13, 2004)

Kelleris said:
			
		

> Continuous _righteous might_?
> 
> Urgh...  Well, let's see what the final numbers look like.
> 
> ...




I am not sure about the cost being right, but depending on how it was constructed I think the cost could right.

Marrow crushing + Wounding is where you get the Con damage

The rest is based on the Soul Drinker weapon in the ELH


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## Kelleris (Nov 13, 2004)

What's the bonus on marrow crushing?  I might need to grab that (though I don't own the _BoVD_).


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## Wrahn (Nov 13, 2004)

Don't forget the BoVD is 3.0

I just looked up Marrowcrushing it is a +3 that does 1 Con damage, I am not sure where the other point of Con damage.

The game has started, I am not sure that changing equipment is a good idea


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## Kelleris (Nov 13, 2004)

Oh, I wasn't planning to.  Not much gold remaining, even if I was inclined to do so.  I was just wondering if it would be worth using a _wish_ to add once I have the (gold and/or) XP to spare.

EDIT: You know, there was a _greater wounding_ property in, I think, the MMII.  Not 3.5, but it's just double the effect of _wounding_ for a +4 ability.  Should be remarkably easy to convert, and closer to how WotC prices the "does 1 point of Con damage" ability than the +3 marrow thing.

Actually, can Su'ryuu just stack them?  A _+1 wounding, wounding, wounding weapon_?  They don't do non-stackable things, so that might work.


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Nov 13, 2004)

No Stacking Of Wounding!  For The Love Of Pelor, No!!!!!!!


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## Kelleris (Nov 13, 2004)

Heehee...

Would you believe me if I said I just proposed that to see if you were still paying attention?

 

No?

...

Darn.


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Nov 13, 2004)

You, Sir, are full of cheese.  Cheddar.  And lots of it.


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## Kelleris (Nov 13, 2004)

Wee!  To be fair, I was (mostly) asking for Su'ryuu's weapon.  Not that I wouldn't take advantage of it if it proves to be a good idea for her...


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## Zack2216 (Nov 13, 2004)

Err, I was going for waraxe. Sorry about that. I had intended to use a d10 base weapon, using axe for for flavor/coolness factor, and made it bigger, once again for looks.

Ooh, righteous might. I never thought of that. Hey, doesn't it give +8 to strength and +4 con? If I had remembered that. Hmmm...

I can't believe I forgot about greater wounding. That would definately solve that odd con damage, and make the weapon cost a little less.

About inertial armor, I had assumed that I had used wild surge with it, which increases my manifester level by 8. So, we get 1pp for +4 base, 34 pp for +17, total 21. Me being dazed for a round doesn't mean the power didn't go off.

My base attack bonus is +19/+14/+9, I get +14 strength bonus to attack, and the weapon is +1. 19+14+1 is 34.
My damage is 2d8 + 21 str (2-handed weilding) +1 enhancement +5 collision enhancement.

After looking at the epic rod of splendor, what is up with that? The +8 bonus alone is woth 640 k. For the sake of a lower degree of brokenness, I will avoid that item. Besides, I think they would've fixed that in the eratta.

But, if it is possible to start changing around my equipment...

1.dump marrowcrushing+wounding for greater wounding (converted)
2.Rearange epic stat buffs to allow for a permanent righteous might effect.
3.break down my boots


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## Kelleris (Nov 13, 2004)

Well, greater wounding would still be only 2 points of Con damage per hit, and not 3.  It's also from a very odd source, so check with Isida first.

The _rod of splendor_ is cheaper because you have to hold it in hand to get the Charisma bonus.  Your hand is a more valuable "slot" than your cloak slot.  Or so I assume...


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## Zack2216 (Nov 13, 2004)

Ok, after some changes, I have 192k left to spend, and I must say that my character is definately more potent than before. Man, those bracers really freed up a lot of gold when I replaced them.

I'm thinking about insight bonuses to attack/damage/AC, and improving my weapon. However, I don't know if it would be kind of me to make her worse. 

I find it amusing that in some instances, I am just blowing off money, such as in my skill bonuses. I doubt I will ever need to jump 70 ft, but hey, it's pretty cool to say that I could. Besides, flyin's for weeny's.


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## Rikandur Azebol (Nov 13, 2004)

Zack2216 said:
			
		

> I find it amusing that in some instances, I am just blowing off money, such as in my skill bonuses. I doubt I will ever need to jump 70 ft, but hey, it's pretty cool to say that I could. Besides, flyin's for weeny's.




Agree on that !   
Imagine expression on the enemy's face when you just stabbed him and jumped out of his charge range. Or behind obstacle that isn't possible to cross that round. My Tsunami was desinged to be nasty ... But now I started to realise how nasty.  

And seeing You all modifing and buying off ECL ... I had decided to do the same. Lets see ...

ECL +3 ... I can buy off on 9 lvl, 15 lvl and 18 lvl :
On 9 lvl, 8k XP ... sob, sob. ELC +2
On 15 lvl, 14k XP ... going to pass out. ECL +1
On 18 lvl, 17k XP ... my heart ! No ECL, finallly.   

Whole operation swallowed 39k XP. Chmm ... 
-28 lvl :386k XP.
My current XP: 404k XP.
-29 lvl :414k XP.
-30 lvl :443k XP.

Not so bad, after all this buying off Tsunami ended up with one more lvl.   
I will recalculate her then. And Isida ... I had wasted additional gold that Wrahn Epic experience saved. Please, can I have these items ?


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## Zack2216 (Nov 13, 2004)

To buy off ecl +3, it requires:

lvl 9- 11k exp (You need 9 class levels before you can buy it off. This doesn't include you're level adjustment. Including level adjustment, this puts you at level 12, and according to the formula, you -1 and X 1000)
lvl 15- 16k exp(15 class levels needed. Now, your level adj. is +2. Do the formula, -1 X 1000)
lvl 18- 18 k (18 class levels needed. Now, your level adj. is +1, so 18 +1 -1 X 1k)


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Nov 13, 2004)

Sure, if you ended up with more gold, then go ahead and buy more stuff.


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## Wrahn (Nov 13, 2004)

Righteous Might and Divine Favor have been Errata'ed

Righteous Might gives +4 Str and +2 Con as Size modifiers and 3/(good or evil) DR that goes up to maximum of 9 at 15th level I think.

Divine favor caps out at 9th level now (+3/+3)

If you are using the Dwarven Waraxe two handed, you don't need the exotic weapon proficiency.

And the Rod of splendor specifically says +8 Enhancement to Charisma as long as held or carried.  With the or in there, I am assuming they mean as long as it is in your possession you get the bonus.

Yes the price is total screwed compared to what we have to work with, Look at the Rod of Epic Spellcasting (+10 Insight Bonus to Spellcraft 246,000gp).  Which is why I don't use those things as examples of how to build magic items.


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## Rikandur Azebol (Nov 13, 2004)

Zack2216 said:
			
		

> To buy off ecl +3, it requires:
> 
> lvl 9- 11k exp (You need 9 class levels before you can buy it off. This doesn't include you're level adjustment. Including level adjustment, this puts you at level 12, and according to the formula, you -1 and X 1000)
> lvl 15- 16k exp(15 class levels needed. Now, your level adj. is +2. Do the formula, -1 X 1000)
> lvl 18- 18 k (18 class levels needed. Now, your level adj. is +1, so 18 +1 -1 X 1k)




Thanks Zack.    
I foolishly forgot to use LA, thank You for correcting me. It mean extra 6k XP dissapear. Chmm ... Luckily for match anti-talent, in on word me, it doesn't change much except that I need now 16k XP to advance a lvl. Uff. 



			
				Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> Sure, if you ended up with more gold, then go ahead and buy more stuff.




Thank You DM ! Now I have something to begin the restoration of the Endless Falls.  A source of water, and some trees ! Every journey starts from the first step.    

And monument of memory, for all those who died with the world would be apporiate too. Maybe Architect may do something ?


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## Mad Hatter (Nov 13, 2004)

Disregard post.


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## Zack2216 (Nov 14, 2004)

I see. Well, that was corected.


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## Kelleris (Nov 14, 2004)

What would you guys say to voluntarily lowering our saves a few notches?

Wait!  Hear me out!    

Here's what I was thinking.  It seems to me that the parts of the game that involve saving throws will be more interesting if we can be more sure that they'll matter in some way.  I think we all look at our respective saves, grimace, and then pick only things that have a significant effect, save or no save.  I mean, just look at our four solid spellcasters:  we have two summoner-types (Caira, Sigrun), a guy who relies on sneak attack dice to do decent damage (Pilmer), and a buff-himself build (Solarion).  If that's all that's feasible, I think we lose a lot of the richness and interest of the spell system, not to mention something like 60% of its depth.

Looking at it another way, say you have a dedicated caster.  18 starting, all level points into the casting stat, +12 item, +5 inherent bonus, all coming out to a 42, giving a +16 bonus.  With a 9th-level spell, that's a save DC of 35.  Granted, it can go maybe 5 points higher with a full-on caster build, but then again, there's no chance at all that an NPC spellcaster (who has only a bit more than a half-million gold at this level) will even have that +12 item.  Realistically, if we have a +35 or better on a save, that makes a whole subsection of spells and spell-like abilities much less interesting.  If we have that on all of our saves, it makes the sort of things we can have as challenges, well, crushingly dull in my opinion.

I don't really like that.  So, what I would propose is that we all drop some of the luck bonuses, sacred bonuses, and whatnot, and shoot for a set of saves that have at least some resemblance to the DCs we force to begin with.  It looks to me like numbers from the low 20s to the mid 30s are pretty reasonable to very good for this level, not counting monsters with so many HD that they have something like an 87 save DC anyway.  But that's what preparedness, caution, and full access to the cleric and druid spell lists are for.    

Now, I'm not suggesting that we change our saves relative to each other.  My Will save will still blow, and Solarion's saves will still be quite good across the board, because that's what he does (Contemplative...   :\ ).  I just think we should rejigger to make more sense when compared with the rest of the world, those poor slobs who don't have 4.3 million gold and a very lenient DM as far as item creation goes.  Isida will be able to use interesting spells that have the downside of actually having saves attached to them, and we'll be able to do likewise as a nice bonus.

Before you start worrying that this will somehow make us all die, I would like to point out that this isn't some kind of pregen adventure.  If we have a certain level of saves that we all share, Isida will know and not arbitrarily kill us all.  There's no need to squeeze every ounce of blood out of this stone, and I feel that it makes the game less interesting (insofar as saves affect the game) if we do so.

And I already know that someone's going to take issue with changing equipment.  Frankly, not only are we doing it already with Su'ryuu on a huge scale, we've never made a save, and probably won't for at least a few days.  Changing this is eminently reasonable still, and will only enrich the game from this point (again, insofar as saves affect the game).

Well?


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## Rikandur Azebol (Nov 14, 2004)

Kelleris said:
			
		

> What would you guys say to voluntarily lowering our saves a few notches?
> 
> And I already know that someone's going to take issue with changing equipment.  Frankly, not only are we doing it already with Su'ryuu on a huge scale, we've never made a save, and probably won't for at least a few days.  Changing this is eminently reasonable still, and will only enrich the game from this point (again, insofar as saves affect the game).
> 
> Well?




As an alternate with lowest saves abroad I agree. 
But from the other point of view, I still have a lot of immunities wich make overall saving a bit diffrent piece of cheese for Tsunami, in comparision to Arion. She's invurnerable to most spells that aren't designed to affect constructs. Hell, pathetic "Stone to Mud" is more menacing for my Maug than God Power stating: "In radius equal to ... blah, blah ... in yards all living creatures die without saves."

Besides, are You ready to lead by example ? I can alvays drop my +5 resistance bonus to saves ... But that will force me to forewarn You all, guys. Wizbang with "Golem Control" may cause a lot of mess then.


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## Wrahn (Nov 14, 2004)

1)  Spellcasters already do the most damage at this level of the game, why on earth would we want to make it easier for the bad guys to do damage to us.

2) You are comparing the saves against the wrong things.  (Not that Solarian and Rahveon's saves aren't still high)

3) Rahveon's saves (and an Immunity to Fire) are his only defense against magic, lowering them would be foolish

4) Your argument could be used with any aspect of an epic character, Arion's Skills, Rahveon's Strength, Sigrun's constructs, Caria's summoning

5) Some characters have advantages over other characters.  High Skills are one aspect, high saves are another, more hit point, better spell casting, more psionic point, higher DCs, ability to cast more spells per round.

6) From "exotic" (luck, sacred, morale, competence) magic bonuses Solarian has 6 and Rahveon has 4, all coming from things that do other things on their character (Greater Heroism, Heroism, Luckstone, competence bonus)  Removing the other bonuses is only going to widen the gap.

7) There are a plethora of spells that do not offer saves (meteor swarm, maze, imprisonment) that will plenty effective against those who have high saves.

8) If we keep our saves at approxiamately the same relationship, we really haven't done anything, if our saves were all -10 then Isida would still have to make creatures with the DC 0 saves


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## Kelleris (Nov 14, 2004)

Rikandur - Of course I'm willing to do so.  I have a +5 luck bonus to all saves that I could drop.  That would give me a lowly +19 to Will saves, but what're you gonna do?  Besides, having a single abysmal save can be quite entertaining, since it gives me something to worry about, plan for, and have fun facing up to the challenge of.  And it's my own fault for sticking with the 7 Wisdom for RP purposes.    

Wrahn - Okay, then.  Point by point:





> Spellcasters already do the most damage at this level of the game, why on earth would we want to make it easier for the bad guys to do damage to us.



That's the thing.  A _certain kind_ of spellcaster can already do the most damage, the kind that doesn't rely on save or- spells.  Look at Caira, for example.  Facing NPCs with saves in the range that I've mentioned would not greatly affect her power one way or the other, because she pretty much bypasses the save mechanic anyway.  Buff casters, sneak-attack casters, and summoner casters are all viable at this level.  The master illusionist, the necromancer, and the artillery cannon really aren't, or their options are so restricted as to make them both predictable and boring.  Lowering our saves en masse would mean that we can add the latter to our list of potential foes without being (any more) overwhelmed by the former sort of casters.




> You are comparing the saves against the wrong things. (Not that Solarian and Rahveon's saves aren't still high).



I am comparing saves against the wrong things?  I am explicitly comparing them to the save DCs of spells and spell-like abilities, which make up easily half of the save-requiring effects in the game.  Looking at the ELH, the same range is pretty good for most monster abilities, except for those that are just off the charts anyway.  That seems to me to be exactly the right thing to compare them to.




> Rahveon's saves (and an Immunity to Fire) are his only defense against magic, lowering them would be foolish.*



More importantly, and not merely localized with your character, is the very point you so helpfully make in #8.  Our relative saves are all that matter as far as being well- or ill-equipped for challenges goes.  I'll say it again: I have no interest in really weakening anyone's character.  Lowering numbers that are, after all, completely abstract, is not really a weakening of you character in this particular context.




> Your argument could be used with any aspect of an epic character, Arion's Skills, Rahveon's Strength, Sigrun's constructs, Caria's summoning.



Yes, I perhaps it could (though I have my doubts).  However, there are two things that make saves worth worrying about more than simply being really, really good at what you're supposed to be really, really good at.  First, saves are ubiquitous.  If I lowered my skill checks and nobody else did, I'm just worse at what I do.  Lowering saves instead puts a range of interesting challenges within feasible terms, and doing it all at once means that we are all just as good overall, since we have a DM and not an unintelligent program running the game.  Second, there is the conflict of saves with another aspect of characters, their save DCs.  Save bonuses are a heck of a lot cheaper than DC bonuses, so unless we self-regulate saves become extremely high and eventually meaningless after a point.  For example, my skills can be matched by someone who puts as much work into finding people as I do into not being seen.  Sigrun's constructs can be matched by someone who puts as much work into creating an opposing army of constructs as he does.  However, if we all cheese out on our saves, someone who puts just as much work into his or her save DCs will just be hoping we roll a 1.  There's a fundamental disparity in ease-of-acquisition that isn't there in your other examples.




> Some characters have advantages over other characters. High Skills are one aspect, high saves are another, more hit point, better spell casting, more psionic point, higher DCs, ability to cast more spells per round.



Yes, and that's why I propose we all do it as a group instead of one person doing it and relinquishing an advantage,  There is no advantage-relinquishing going on here whatsoever, in fact, and that's exactly my point.  Rahveon and Solarion will still be the guys with really good saves, I will still have a gaping hole for a Will save, and so forth.  The only difference is that everyone will be 5 points (say) lower, and a d20 will matter again.  All of this is not to say that there's no such thing as having too much of an advantage, which there certainly is and which I'm not prepared to accuse anyone of.




> From "exotic" (luck, sacred, morale, competence) magic bonuses Solarian has 6 and Rahveon has 4, all coming from things that do other things on their character (Greater Heroism, Heroism, Luckstone, competence bonus) Removing the other bonuses is only going to widen the gap.



So just drop the morale bonus from _greater heroism_.  Instead of making it an item of _greater heroism_, have it be an item that grants the same bonuses granted by _greater heroism_ except the saving throw bonuses, and then subtract out the cost of a +4 morale bonus to all saves (32,000 by the guidelines).  Simple as pie, and the same goes for other effects as well.  You can hardly complain that doing so is arbitrarily making up a new item for a specific effect, in the light of our character sheets' equipment lists.




> There are a plethora of spells that do not offer saves (meteor swarm, maze, imprisonment) that will plenty effective against those who have high saves.



Yeah, and there's probably 8 times as many that do care about saves.  And I want to reiterate the crucial distinction here: there is a difference between high saves and saves that only involve a d20 as a formality.  The former is a legitimate character advanatge, and the latter is a breakdown of the game system that should be addressed.




> If we keep our saves at approxiamately the same relationship, we really haven't done anything, if our saves were all -10 then Isida would still have to make creatures with the DC 0 saves.



Exactly my point.  The difference is that Isida isn't just arbitrarily picking numbers for us to save against, she's implicitly playing by (mostly) the same rules as us.  If we lower our saves as I've suggested, those rules let us have more fun because they let Isida challenge us in a greater variety of ways.  Isn't that what the game is about, really?  Surely it's not about collecting the highest possible abstract numbers on our character sheets.  If she _was_ arbitrarily picking numbers, then you should just be glad that we can transfer that gold to something more interesting, something with more character than "+X bonus to X", and we're better off than before, having not wasted gold en masse on something that Isida's just going to judge relatively or arbitrarily anyway.

* - Except of course for his massive hp, his immunity to death and negative energy effects, his constant true seeing, his 9 levels of spell turning 3/day, his immunity to mind-affecting abilities and divinations, his immunity to environmental effects, and the fact that he'll still have the best saves in the group (Solarion excepted).  If I didn't know better, I would almost think you would rather be playing rock-paper-scissors instead of D&D, with all those unbeatable immunities.  By contrast, my immunities consist of the following: Enchantment spells and abilities; _I_ don't think it's foolish, and Arion has a lot more to worry about than your character.  You callin' me an utter moron, punk?!


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## Rikandur Azebol (Nov 15, 2004)

Kelleris said:
			
		

> Rikandur - Of course I'm willing to do so.  I have a +5 luck bonus to all saves that I could drop.  That would give me a lowly +19 to Will saves, but what're you gonna do?  Besides, having a single abysmal save can be quite entertaining, since it gives me something to worry about, plan for, and have fun facing up to the challenge of.  And it's my own fault for sticking with the 7 Wisdom for RP purposes.




Do You noticed that It is my ONLY save bonus ? Except feats, but You wouldn't convice me to drop them. Unless You convice Isida to order me to ... And I would be sulking there anyway.   

Try to write it nicely and convincingly, just unlike bullet point stuff that You put out with Arion's speech. I know that I am being mean now, but You should write more creatively then ... describe emotional effects for example, like dryad. Never ever do it that way again, ok ?   

If You convice Wrahn without starting another, pointless from my point of view, discussion ... Then I would say that Your Diplomacy is HIGH.   
He is "almost" as stubborn as I.  

And then It would be onlly beggining ! Our DM, rest of players. Grit Your teeth and start.  

As a backup for Your idea I could say that after reading Tsunami's saves without bonus I get really scared about her "wellbeing". Imagine ... Being afraid for 26 lvl fighter !


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## Wrahn (Nov 15, 2004)

Kelleris said:
			
		

> That's the thing.  A _certain kind_ of spellcaster can already do the most damage, the kind that doesn't rely on save or- spells.  Look at Caira, for example.  Facing NPCs with saves in the range that I've mentioned would not greatly affect her power one way or the other, because she pretty much bypasses the save mechanic anyway.  Buff casters, sneak-attack casters, and summoner casters are all viable at this level.  The master illusionist, the necromancer, and the artillery cannon really aren't, or their options are so restricted as to make them both predictable and boring.  Lowering our saves en masse would mean that we can add the latter to our list of potential foes without being (any more) overwhelmed by the former sort of casters.




A single 30th level mage can easily toss out 4 meteor swarms a round and even making saves that is still 48d6 damage.  Toss in a slightly more viscious build and you can have that empowered to 72d6 (That for reference is 252 points of damage on average)



> I am comparing saves against the wrong things?  I am explicitly comparing them to the save DCs of spells and spell-like abilities, which make up easily half of the save-requiring effects in the game.  Looking at the ELH, the same range is pretty good for most monster abilities, except for those that are just off the charts anyway.  That seems to me to be exactly the right thing to compare them to.




You were comparing them to the "average" 30th level caster, of which there is no such thing.  I could use the existing rules to make something whose save is beyond any of us.



> Our relative saves are all that matter as far as being well- or ill-equipped for challenges goes.  I'll say it again: I have no interest in really weakening anyone's character.  Lowering numbers that are, after all, completely abstract, is not really a weakening of you character in this particular context.




Abstract, yes, meaningless, no.  If the numbers were meaningless we should be playing first level characters.



> Yes, I perhaps it could (though I have my doubts).  However, there are two things that make saves worth worrying about more than simply being really, really good at what you're supposed to be really, really good at.  First, saves are ubiquitous.  If I lowered my skill checks and nobody else did, I'm just worse at what I do.  Lowering saves instead puts a range of interesting challenges within feasible terms, and doing it all at once means that we are all just as good overall, since we have a DM and not an unintelligent program running the game.  Second, there is the conflict of saves with another aspect of characters, their save DCs.  Save bonuses are a heck of a lot cheaper than DC bonuses, so unless we self-regulate saves become extremely high and eventually meaningless after a point.  For example, my skills can be matched by someone who puts as much work into finding people as I do into not being seen.  Sigrun's constructs can be matched by someone who puts as much work into creating an opposing army of constructs as he does.  However, if we all cheese out on our saves, someone who puts just as much work into his or her save DCs will just be hoping we roll a 1.  There's a fundamental disparity in ease-of-acquisition that isn't there in your other examples.




I am not competing with the other characters DCs, I am not competing with other players skill checks either, If I were, I would be calling to high heaven about how Arion is built.  And yes there is a disparity between characters, the answer can be found in building other characters up rather than taking our selves down.



> Yes, and that's why I propose we all do it as a group instead of one person doing it and relinquishing an advantage,  There is no advantage-relinquishing going on here whatsoever, in fact, and that's exactly my point.  Rahveon and Solarion will still be the guys with really good saves, I will still have a gaping hole for a Will save, and so forth.  The only difference is that everyone will be 5 points (say) lower, and a d20 will matter again.  All of this is not to say that there's no such thing as having too much of an advantage, which there certainly is and which I'm not prepared to accuse anyone of.




If there is no change in the difference between the saves, there is no difference.  DCs can be as high or as low as the GM wants.



> So just drop the morale bonus from _greater heroism_.  Instead of making it an item of _greater heroism_, have it be an item that grants the same bonuses granted by _greater heroism_ except the saving throw bonuses, and then subtract out the cost of a +4 morale bonus to all saves (32,000 by the guidelines).  Simple as pie, and the same goes for other effects as well.  You can hardly complain that doing so is arbitrarily making up a new item for a specific effect, in the light of our character sheets' equipment lists.




Not possible, they aren't bought that way.  It is a continuous spell.  The competence bonus and the Luck bonus maybe (as they are bought that way) but, short of getting rid of it or placing a "limitation" on it, they you can't really do that.



> Yeah, and there's probably 8 times as many that do care about saves.  And I want to reiterate the crucial distinction here: there is a difference between high saves and saves that only involve a d20 as a formality.  The former is a legitimate character advanatge, and the latter is a breakdown of the game system that should be addressed.




It is only a "breakdown" of the system if you are comparing yourself to the rest of the group, which I have repeatedly said is a mistake.



> Exactly my point.  The difference is that Isida isn't just arbitrarily picking numbers for us to save against, she's implicitly playing by (mostly) the same rules as us.  If we lower our saves as I've suggested, those rules let us have more fun because they let Isida challenge us in a greater variety of ways.  Isn't that what the game is about, really?  Surely it's not about collecting the highest possible abstract numbers on our character sheets.  If she _was_ arbitrarily picking numbers, then you should just be glad that we can transfer that gold to something more interesting, something with more character than "+X bonus to X", and we're better off than before, having not wasted gold en masse on something that Isida's just going to judge relatively or arbitrarily anyway.




You weren't listening to my point, the system is more than capable of throwing things at us that will challenge our saves, if you don't think so, then you haven't been playing the high end, at all.



> Except of course for his massive hp, his immunity to death and negative energy effects, his constant true seeing, his 9 levels of spell turning 3/day, his immunity to mind-affecting abilities and divinations, his immunity to environmental effects, and the fact that he'll still have the best saves in the group (Solarion excepted).  If I didn't know better, I would almost think you would rather be playing rock-paper-scissors instead of D&D, with all those unbeatable immunities.




You obviously haven't been playing high level games...

There is SO much that you need to prepare for, so much that you can not prepare for.  Just off the top of my head, here are a few examples of what we could be facing:  (epic)Psedonatural Bone Ooze, Elite Half-Fiend Great Wyrm Red Dragon, Asmodeus(!), A Paragon Tarrasque (or an Epic Pseudo Natural Tarrasque would be fun), Tiamat (!) (though she is only CR 25, I think you would have to throw in her cohorts),  a 10th level Soul Eater Pit Fiend with a 30th level sorceror and a shade rogue and a 20th level Firegiant cleric.

If you think combat at epic level can be devolved into rock/paper/scissors or that Rahveon is protected from magic, then you need to reassess what we are going to be facing.  The epic combats that I have been involved in are huge, fun and most of all immensely complicated.

If you think our saves are too high, look at the ruin swarm (CR23)


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## Ferrix (Nov 15, 2004)

I think a slight comparison is in order, let's look at a level 2 party.

We have a rogue, a paladin, a monk and a cleric.

Say for stats we have three good stats, two 14's and a 16, the rest are average.

The rogue has put his good stats in Dexterity 16, Intelligence 14 and Charisma 14.
The paladin has put his good stats in Strength 14, Constitution 14, and Charisma 16.
The monk has put his good stats into Dexterity 14, Constitution 14 and Wisdom 16.
The cleric has put his good stats into Constitution 14, Wisdom 16 and Charisma 14.

Looking at the saves:
Rogue: Fort +0, Refl +6, Will +0 = +6
Paladin: Fort +8, Refl +3, Will +3 = +14
Monk: Fort +5, Refl +5, Will +6 = +16
Cleric: Fort +4, Refl +0, Will +6 = +10

Obviously here the rogue has the significant disadvantage in saving throws, he has almost half as much as the lowest other character when you add them up, and almost a third as many as the highest character (the monk).

That's only at 2nd level, jump to 30th level and you are going to have just as much disparity if not more.


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## Wrahn (Nov 15, 2004)

Kelleris-

By the way, are you going to get rid of the Practiced Spellcaster feat or make a pitch to Isida about keeping it?  I think you need to do it soon either way.


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## Rikandur Azebol (Nov 15, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> A single 30th level mage can easily toss out 4 meteor swarms a round and even making saves that is still 48d6 damage.  Toss in a slightly more viscious build and you can have that empowered to 72d6 (That for reference is 252 points of damage on average)






			
				Wrahn said:
			
		

> Abstract, yes, meaningless, no.  If the numbers were meaningless we should be playing first level characters.






			
				Wrahn said:
			
		

> I am not competing with the other characters DCs, I am not competing with other players skill checks either, If I were, I would be calling to high heaven about how Arion is built.  And yes there is a disparity between characters, the answer can be found in building other characters up rather than taking our selves down.






			
				Wrahn said:
			
		

> It is only a "breakdown" of the system if you are comparing yourself to the rest of the group, which I have repeatedly said is a mistake.






			
				Wrahn said:
			
		

> You weren't listening to my point, the system is more than capable of throwing things at us that will challenge our saves, if you don't think so, then you haven't been playing the high end, at all.






			
				Wrahn said:
			
		

> You obviously haven't been playing high level games...
> 
> There is SO much that you need to prepare for, so much that you can not prepare for.  Just off the top of my head, here are a few examples of what we could be facing:  (epic)Psedonatural Bone Ooze, Elite Half-Fiend Great Wyrm Red Dragon, Asmodeus(!), A Paragon Tarrasque (or an Epic Pseudo Natural Tarrasque would be fun), Tiamat (!) (though she is only CR 25, I think you would have to throw in her cohorts),  a 10th level Soul Eater Pit Fiend with a 30th level sorceror and a shade rogue and a 20th level Firegiant cleric.
> 
> If you think combat at epic level can be devolved into rock/paper/scissors or that Rahveon is protected from magic, then you need to reassess what we are going to be facing.  The epic combats that I have been involved in are huge, fun and most of all immensely complicated.




Impossible ! I agree with Wrahn here ! I had run few combats, out of curiosity, between Rhaevon and Tsunami and even Arion and Tsunami. 
Out of three "duels" Arion won one ... he stole, as a free action, mattock of titans from Tsunami and smashed her with it. Not to mention that he was barely alive after the combat. I will mention that I didn't used any spell that Arion know. I'm not used for spellcasting without huge warrior between me and enemy. Once Arion lost, because of massive dmg, pathetic 1 would You belive ? Second it was close combat, with some miraculously won initiatives for Tsunami. And really good for it because it allowed her to make some cruical hits wich decreased Arion's HP significantly. She was simply faster than him, wich allowed her to pursue Arion when he was backing out ... or to flee unpunished when threatened too much. Going to love these 140' jumps. 

Of my "duels" with elefantic crusher, Rhaveon I could simply state ...  
In straight  combat, exchanging blows, elefant crushes Tsunami to dust. Is seriously wouded after that ... But nothing that fev days of rest wouldn't heal.  
In environment allowing some mobility, Tsunami won. Sorry Wrahn, but after few hours even Rhaevon's strenght can fade avay. For onlookers it was more like battle of titans ... stone boulders, three times Rhaevon's size, thrown like small rock are just example. They left real wasteland ... Even if his teleport at will is real pain !
In third fight, this time dangerous one. They fell to magma pool. Tsunami died, toasted and jovared. Elefant walked out of magma, and shaked it out of himself ... after it solidified. 

Rhaevon is well designed, and if You Wrahn still saying that there are combat monsters that even Elefant-Man fears ... I belive and tremble.   



			
				Wrahn said:
			
		

> If you think our saves are too high, look at the ruin swarm (CR23)




Kelleris ? I changed my mind. I think that Tsunami is balanced enough, and I would not drop this save bonus. No, maam. I read some epic monsters and shruddered. Even if these critters were vurnerable to Tsunami's sword ... they are still well beyond her capacity of dealing with routinely.


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## Wrahn (Nov 15, 2004)

As a side note, as I looked back on what I wrote, I am used to playing with people who like to play with the rules like I do.  That includes the Game Master whom I played in the epic game with.

I know that it takes a tremendous amount of effort to build a challenge to meet epic characters, I am not sure we can expect the same level of complication that I have seen from my real life game given the time constraints that Isida is under, so in other words my experience may not be worth as much as I portrayed it above.

But on the other hand, perhaps it is.

Ultimately Kelleris, you could be right or wrong, the only thing we have to figure it out though is what the GM tells us.  She seems okay with it, so we owe her at least the chance to see what she can do.  If we encounter issues after we have seen where we are, THEN we should talk about.


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## Ferrix (Nov 15, 2004)

A few things I'm noticing about some of Wrahn's items.

One example:
His tabard which grants continuous heroism is listed at 24,000gp, which is correct if you price it as a spell but since it provides a very specific set of bonuses which at least two of them have something analogous in the DMG, it should be vastly more expensive.

+2 Morale Bonus on chance to hit, saves, skills, and ability checks

+2 morale bonus to saves = 2^2*2000 = 8000gp
+2 morale bonus to hit = 2^2*5000 = 20000gp
+2 morale bonus to skills = 2^2*4000 = 16000gp
+2 morale bonus to ability checks = 2^2*4000 = 16000gp

Total = 60,000gp (this is without multiplying lesser costs by 1.5)

That's over twice the price of how he ran it up.

Also I find his Divine Power belt incredibly cheesed.  Increasing his size with righteous might and then shrinking it with reduce person to gain a +2 size bonus to strength, dexterity and constitution and really abusing the rules.  He shouldn't gain any bonuses from being the same size he was before just because he found two spells which change the size of someone without correctly balancing the attribute changes and used them together to get a net increase.

This divine power belt I just plain don't like.  We also said no nonstandard (enhancement bonuses) to attributes.


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## Ferrix (Nov 15, 2004)

Also the hallowed cloak of mystic shielding which provides a +3 luck bonus to hit and damage along with a +5 bonus to saves should cost:

3^2*5000 + 3^2*5000 + 25,000*1.5 = 127500gp

The 3^2*5000 comes from the formula for the bracers of archery, a bonus to hit or damage is equal to the bonus squared times 5000, calculated individually.


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## Wrahn (Nov 15, 2004)

Items that give bonuses to stat other than enhancement are not supported in the item creation rules (like skill bonuses, but that is a different argument)

Righteous Might gives bonuses above and beyond what the size increase gives you, It is infusing you with a bit of divine power.  (Look at enlarge person).  All the Reduce Person does is lower the size back down.  (+2 Size Bonus to physical stats +4 to Nat armor, 3/evil DR for 366,000gp is powerful, but only at this level, otherwise it is too expensive.)

The rules support the creation of permanent magical effects.

Divine Favor at 9th level is 72k, no way in the item creation rules to give a bonus to attack and damage.  You example is flawed with the bracers of archery because they have other effects (They give a feat and the bonus to hit and damage is dependent on having the feat independent of the item.)

Sometimes spells are cheaper than an associated item, sometimes it is the only way to get an item to do what you want it to do.


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## Ferrix (Nov 15, 2004)

The bracers of archery are a good guideline for something like this, and it only provides a feat if you don't already have proficiency with the bows, it doesn't grant the bonuses to hit and damage if oyu don't have proficiency.  Hell the greater bracers of archery actually cost more than your tabard, and they only provide a +2 to hit and a +1 to damage, no where near the +2 to hit, +2 to saves, +2 to skills and +2 to ability checks that the tabard provides.  And it if was actually flawed, I'd actually be erring on the lower side, since an item which restricts a bonus to only a specific situation or use reduces the cost.

And considering the way all bonuses to hit and damage scale exponentially it makes a great deal of sense.  Look around on the WotC boards and you'll see the exact same formula for bonuses to hit and damage from items that aren't weapons.  Bonus squared times 5000.

Just because the rules support the creation of permanent magical effects does not mean that more concrete examples shouldn't be followed more closely.

Do some reverse engineering and you'll see your tabard of heroism is far superior to any listed item.


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## Wrahn (Nov 15, 2004)

I am well aware of the efficiency of Heroism, why do you think I bought it?

I notice you still paid 40,000 for your Freedom of Movement, despite how it "should" be bought.  Before you start in on others for gaining a cost break because of inconsistancies in the rules, perhaps you should make sure that you aren't also doing so as well.

Bracers of Archery are too complicated an item to make that assumption.  It sounds reasonable, but before making the assumption you would need to check with the game master.


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## Ferrix (Nov 15, 2004)

However, there is a difference between an already listed item (freedom of movement) and a created item which does far more than items of a similar cost.

And I don't see how you think the bracers of archery are very complex items to deconstruct, considering basically the Wizards boards agree on the very same deconstruction.

And I wouldn't call it efficiency at all.


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## Wrahn (Nov 15, 2004)

Ferrix said:
			
		

> However, there is a difference between an already listed item (freedom of movement) and a created item which does far more than items of a similar cost.




Yes, they don't follow the item creation rules which explain the cost of the item in the custom creation, which in fact, is what you are doing.  In addition, they explain how continuous effects work and don't explain some of the effects that the item grants.

I interpret the rules as being assumptions you can make without asking the game master.  Anything that goes beyond that you need to ask.



> And I don't see how you think the bracers of archery are very complex items to deconstruct, considering basically the Wizards boards agree on the very same deconstruction.




Because some guys on a board are doing things one way, does not mean it makes sense.

Let me be specific:

X Feat: Martial Weapon Proficiency Longbow
X Feat: Martial Weapon Proficiency Shortbow
Y +1 Competence Bonus to hit (-Z% only with Martial Weapon Proficiency any bow not granted by the item.)

There are 3 variables there we do not know.  That is why it is too hard to figure out what cost they were using.  In addition, we don't know what the higher cost was, so we don't know what was multiplied by 1.5.



> And I wouldn't call it efficiency at all.




  Temper temper

This is why this thread is a bad idea.  Surely you don't mean to imply that by following the easy to read and understand rules I that I am cheating.  I could draw offense to that.


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## Ferrix (Nov 15, 2004)

*laughs* if you thought that was some semblance of an uncontrolled temper it makes me laugh.

On another note,

The reason for this thread is to not drive Isida insane if comments come up between players about their respective characters.  Which is exactly what we're doing, giving commentary on each others characters.

Also, not saying you are cheating, just giving my say that the cost of the tabard of heroism is far too low for the bonuses it provides.  Even if I went with the weapon bonus rules (bonus squared x 2000, x2 nonstandard), it's still priced too low.

Also, the stone of perfection also provides a similar cost comparison.  As it provides a +1 to hit, unlike the stone of good luck, deducting the cost of the stone of good luck from the stone of perfection leaves 10,000gp, divide by two since it didn't take a slot and there's 5000gp for a +1 to hit.

Cheating to me is like fudging a dice roll or going obviously outside of the system or rules, something I wouldn't expect from anyone who really just recognizes this as the fun game that it is.


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## Wrahn (Nov 15, 2004)

While the comparison of the Luckstone versus the Competence Bonus granted by the Ioun stone seems to support your position, it in fact does not:

(Note these are completely bogus numbers)

$2 +1 to saves
$3 +1 to Skills ($2 x 1.5)
$3 +1 to ability checks ($2 x 1.5)

$8 for Luckstone

$5 +1 to hit
$3 +1 to saves ($2 x 1.5)
$3 +1 to Skills ($2 x 1.5)
$3 +1 to ability checks ($2 x 1.5)

$14 for ioun stone

Subtracting 8 from 14, you come up with the cost of $6 on the +1 to hit, when it is only $5.  Unless you make the assumption that they are not following their own rules (which isn't invalid) but then that completely negates the usefulness of the example and you can not reverse engineer it.

And no, I did not think it was uncontrolled anger, but certainly it was a... rude statement which could lead to harsher retaliation.

Further, opening up this can of worms, while saving Isida, invites this confrontation.


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## Ferrix (Nov 15, 2004)

Or it could have been just a light quip which was commenting more upon the usage of the word.


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## Wrahn (Nov 15, 2004)

Ferrix said:
			
		

> Or it could have been just a light quip which was commenting more upon the usage of the word.




Regardless, such usage does tend to get people in trouble, even if it wasn't intended.  I have gotten into huge arguments over quips if delivered in person would have been funny, but delivered over email seriously offended.

I didn't take offense, hopefully you didn't take offense at what I have said.

I feel using spells to deliniate bonuses not reflected in the rules is a more balanced approach in most cases than buying bonuses.  Mostly because of the bounded nature of spells and unbounded nature of the bonuses.  Example:

+1 luck, insight, morale, sacred, divine, profane, size, competence, circumstance, synergy, holy, unholy, haste, and enhancement bonus to hit (95,500) for +14 to hit.

As opposed to the +2 size bonus to strength, dexterity and Con for the 366,000 which you can't really push farther.  (And yes I appreciate that it was cheesy, the alternative was being Huge and having reduce Person at will, which would have only made Rahveon more powerful, which was not my goal)


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## Ferrix (Nov 15, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Regardless, such usage does tend to get people in trouble, even if it wasn't intended.  I have gotten into huge arguments over quips if delivered in person would have been funny, but delivered over email seriously offended.
> 
> I didn't take offense, hopefully you didn't take offense at what I have said.




Agreed.  Text forms rarely work to convey meaning properly.



			
				Wrahn said:
			
		

> I feel using spells to deliniate bonuses not reflected in the rules is a more balanced approach in most cases than buying bonuses.  Mostly because of the bounded nature of spells and unbounded nature of the bonuses.  Example:
> 
> +1 luck, insight, morale, sacred, divine, profane, size, competence, circumstance, synergy, holy, unholy, haste, and enhancement bonus to hit (95,500) for +14 to hit.
> 
> As opposed to the +2 size bonus to strength, dexterity and Con for the 366,000 which you can't really push farther.  (And yes I appreciate that it was cheesy, the alternative was being Huge and having reduce Person at will, which would have only made Rahveon more powerful, which was not my goal)




Agreed, I just thought it was really cheesy.  Although not as bad as a continuous Mantle of Egregious Might for 360,000gp.

Should have kept that retributive amulet for my defense, or gotten a starmantle cloak to keep up my cheese levels .


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## Kelleris (Nov 15, 2004)

Rikandur - Well, it would probably be reasonable for you to keep your current bonuses.  I think your position as the guy with the worst saves will remain secure.      I don't know where that bit about bullet points came from, though.  They are eminently suited to this sort of discussion...

Besides, Wrahn started it!    

And I have been making a point to post at least once daily, you know.  The game is probably slow because I introduced a need for mad rhymin' skills, as part of my nefarious plot to make you so sick of creative presentations that everyone will start using bullet points exclusively.

Wrahn - You know what?  I was going to respond to your comments, but in light of your utter obstinance on everything I have suggested, I think you have demonstrated yourself unwilling to compromise.  Instead of proposing a compromise solution, as I have repeatedly asked you to do, you argue against everything I say regardless of whether it is really materially affecting you or not and "helpfully" reread my character sheet for errors every time I do bring up something.



> That's only at 2nd level, jump to 30th level and you are going to have just as much disparity if not more.




Yeah, that's kinda my point, and kinda not.  Half of my point is that certain people have saves that are completely, across the board, better than other people, creating a difficult situation for the DM.  The things that challenge some people's Fort saves don't even involve a meaningful d20 roll for other people.  Likewise, I agree with you about the save disparity.  However, I think that this is something we can pretty easily self-regulate to correct, in the interests of having a more fun game.  Since this idea is so alien to everyone that they refuse even to propose some acceptable compromise alternative, go ahead and forget I said anything.

Think I'm misjudging your intent in arguing the way you have?  Fine.  The ball is in your court.  Prove me wrong.



> This is why this thread is a bad idea. Surely you don't mean to imply that by following the easy to read and understand rules I that I am cheating. I could draw offense to that.




They are guidelines, for the love of all that is good and holy.  Not rules!  And even if they were rules, so was the bag of rats in 3.0, and that didn't make it a good idea.  I seem to be the only one that thinks so, but I'll go ahead and say it again: _just because you can do it, doesn't mean you should_.

Why don't we try looking at how much an item is _worth_, for a change, instead of all this mathematical hair-splitting?


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## Kelleris (Nov 15, 2004)

And just to show that I'm serious about compromising, and because it is evidently bothering you, Wrahn, I am dropping Practiced Spellcaster from my feat list.


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## Rikandur Azebol (Nov 16, 2004)

Kelleris said:
			
		

> Rikandur - Well, it would probably be reasonable for you to keep your current bonuses.  I think your position as the guy with the worst saves will remain secure.      I don't know where that bit about bullet points came from, though.  They are eminently suited to this sort of discussion...
> 
> Besides, Wrahn started it!




Stubborn You are. 
Och, where from bit about bullet points ? I, personally, like exagerate descriptions followed by bullet point explaination. First to make me marvel about creativity of the writer, second to avoid confusion.  

I have nasty sense of humour ... I'm afraid. More than just fev people stopped talking with me after one, innocent from my point of view, joke. :\ 



			
				Kelleris said:
			
		

> And I have been making a point to post at least once daily, you know.  The game is probably slow because I introduced a need for mad rhymin' skills, as part of my nefarious plot to make you so sick of creative presentations that everyone will start using bullet points exclusively.




Rhyming is fun ! And Players may be delayed because they have ... You know, other activites ... I dare even to say, life ?   

Not to mention Isida, _unfortunately_ She have right to have her own life too.   

How You like sample of my irony ? And that just warming up.


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## Kelleris (Nov 16, 2004)

By where that bit about the bullet points came from, I simply meant that it seemed kinda random, not immediately connecting with what we were talking about.

I'm only talking about myself as far as posting goes. *waves hand* Ignore the extraneous speculation (and that's all it is).  It wasn't really meant as an occasion for sarcasm, especially since I was actually feeling a little bad about forcing everyone to rhyme.  I recommend blank verse instead.

Right.  As far as the rant earlier goes, I dearly wish for a bit less of this:



> A: "You are using something that is cheesy/underpriced/flat-out broken/just stupid.
> B: "No I'm not.  S, H, and L say so."
> A: "Yes you are.  Q, G, and C say so."
> B: "No I'm not.  W, J, and Y say so."
> [Continue until vomiting or complete frustration is induced.]




And a bit more of this:



> A: "You are using a spell (say) that is cheesy/underpriced/flat-out broken/just stupid. It bothers me because it belittles my character/makes the game less interesting/annoys the dickens out of me/whatever."
> B: "Oh, I'm sorry to hear that, A, but I really want to keep whatever-it-is.  How about if I rejiggered the ability/added a weakness/came up with a less bothersome means to the same end/admit that I have some responsibility to other players.  I will moderate what I want by admiting that it isn't all that important/bumping the spell level by 1/recosting the item/asking what you would prefer."
> A: "Oh, okay.  That is a reasonable compromise.  I feel better and am happy to play with your character without reservations now."
> B: "Good.  I care about my fellow players and therefore want to address their concerns instead of arguing them into the ground/pestering the DM/finding something to counterattack with/annoying the heck out of them whenever they see my avatar."




And, for what it's worth, it wasn't the saving throw issue that finally aggravated me to ribbons.  It was Wrahn and Ferrix's discussion of item costs, which including no offers of compromise, asking of how much the items are actually _worth_ rather than what some simple guidelines supposedly dictate, or acknowledgement that (yes, again, it's important) just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.  And then it ended with a (tongue-in-cheek) agreement that, obviously, Sigrun was oozing gouda to an insufficient degree.

Now, I've been more ambivalent than I should have been about compromising, so I'm not even going to do point-by-point arguments anymore.  If that's all you care to do, then just tell me what you don't like about Arion and why (and purely mechanical quibbles will fall on deaf ears).  I will change it so that it addresses your concerns and doesn't compromise mine too much, and then I will have fulfilled my duties to my fellow players as far as character creation is concerned.  Assuming you aren't willing to deal likewise with me, I'm out of this thread with no intention of coming back.  

Be advised that I will then take whatever IC opportunities present themselves to make fun of your character, as a way of appeasing my disgruntled ego.      And I will get Rahveon back for that cross-dresser comment a hundredfold!


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## Rikandur Azebol (Nov 16, 2004)

Sarcasm ? Sigh ... What I dislike about Arion ? Where to begin ... 
I wouldn't play Arion. Why ? Guy confuses me extremly, and I cannot create imaginative visage of him. That's all, my personal feelings, from one point I thought that he was ninja type ... and You say he isn't. That confused me. I guess that sword Akumanga have similiar troubles while convicing Arion to do "the neccesary".   

For example I have very clear picture of Tsunami, imagine Sophita from "Soul Edge" a game that killed me three pads fev years ago. And mix it with nymph picture from MM 3.5 . Of course put the Nymph into the armour ...   

And I could draw picture of Wrahn's elefant man. Ther was elefantine monster in "Blade & Sword", a game from China ... probably. Diablo-like. Simply change of armour for full plate mail is piece of cake.

Similiar tale I could tell about most other characters, where Ferrix's psion is simply bald Gandalf, for me. Never get used to this whole psionic stuff. 

And about Arion ? Once I see ninja with murder in his eyes, other time I see bardlike guy ... playing flute. First is asian, second is english.   :\ 

Uff, now Kelleris, what do You dislike in Tsunami ?


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## Wrahn (Nov 16, 2004)

Kelleris-

Worth is a term so highly subjective that it loses meaning.  The rules are an objective way of determining worth (well at least partially).  Arguing with rules actually allows you to make a coherent arguement without falling back to the emotional.

The thing I don't understand about your "Your high saves makes me feel less valuable" is Rahveon was posted first and hasn't changed significantly statistically.  If you thought that Rahveon's saves were going to make you feel weak and ineffective, why did you make Arion's saves so low?

I have expressed my feelings on this and even my willingness to compromise, when we have something more concrete to look at.  But right now, I don't think we have enough to make an objective opinion.  Beyond that I do not find myself moved by your argument.

As a side note: Solarian is OneAboveAll's character, what he wants to do with it is up to him.


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## perivas (Nov 16, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> You were comparing them to the "average" 30th level caster, of which there is no such thing. I could use the existing rules to make something whose save is beyond any of us.




I heavily doubt that.  I studied the problem closely and tried my best to create the highest possible save requirement.  In the end, I came to the conclusion that someone who forces the others to make a save is worthless 90+% of the time considering some players' saves.  I started with a black ethergaunt with an INT bonus of +20 and 17 levels of casting and added items, Red Wizard levels and feats to push it to the max...and it still wasn't enough.  I'm not asking you to change any saves...I couldn't care less.  I'm just pointing out that the current saves on some characters are for all practical purposes impossible to overcome for a ECL 30 character.




			
				Kelleris said:
			
		

> And just to show that I'm serious about compromising, and because it is evidently bothering you, Wrahn, I am dropping Practiced Spellcaster from my feat list.




I have that feat too, I believe...and will remove it as well.  Now, what to pick, what to pick, what to pick...hmm?


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## Wrahn (Nov 16, 2004)

perivas said:
			
		

> I heavily doubt that.  I studied the problem closely and tried my best to create the highest possible save requirement.  In the end, I came to the conclusion that someone who forces the others to make a save is worthless 90+% of the time considering some players' saves.  I started with a black ethergaunt with an INT bonus of +20 and 17 levels of casting and added items, Red Wizard levels and feats to push it to the max...and it still wasn't enough.  I'm not asking you to change any saves...I couldn't care less.  I'm just pointing out that the current saves on some characters are for all practical purposes impossible to overcome for a ECL 30 character.




Without going over CR 30 and without playing around with templates, I can reach 54 DC playing with non-exotic feats and items.  That is just using the SRD.  Throw in Epic spells (which have been banned from us, but not neccesarily from Isida) and that number goes through the roof.

That is with about 5 minutes of paging through the SRD too.  Don't worry, their are plenty of ways to hose us over "legal-like" without resorting to going to the dieties and demigods.  And Isida has given us more than ample reason to believe she is going there.

And I suppose yes, practice spell caster bothers me, Isida asked us to remain within certain books.  If we had had access to it, I may have considered going a different direction.


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## Rikandur Azebol (Nov 16, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Without going over CR 30 and without playing around with templates, I can reach 54 DC playing with non-exotic feats and items.  That is just using the SRD.  Throw in Epic spells (which have been banned from us, but not neccesarily from Isida) and that number goes through the roof.




Could You hint to me something ? In tabletop game My wizard is quickly advancing and I want to prepare this evil bastard against demons, for he is stuck up in the Abyss, with ordinary guys he can handle his way ... but Epic level. I'm sorry for shameless nagging, but I need to buff up his spell DC. What items/feats would You propose ? And I'm talking about direct damage spellslinger with a lot of customised energetic "missiles". Acid thunder etc. Why waste feat when You can research it ?


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## Wrahn (Nov 16, 2004)

I suppose I should ask how high do you think this game is going to go.  There are things you can do that will not see fruition until around 30th level that are less effective at lower levels.

Automatically quickened spells + Multispell as many times as you can get it, is obnoxiously powerful with or without DCs.  Improved Heighten Spell and Improved Spell Capacity are good ones to get the DC of that special spell up.  Certainly get your intelligence up and you may want to look into school specialization feats, though I am not a huge fan of those.

As far as items go, Monte Cook's Book of Eldritch Might has an amulet of the arcanist which grants +2 to spell DCs for 50k.  There is also a spell which increases the DCs of spells cast afterwards called Greater Magic Flow at 4th level.  (Though I would not allow them to stack, they are both unnamed bonuses so _technically_ they should)

I think also in that book there is a Holy Lace feat which increases the DC of spells versus evil by +1.

I think the most important thing to remember is concentrate on weaknesses, big fighter type, try Will saves, caster type, reflex, roguish, fortitude.  Be flexible.  Sometimes you will not be able to raise you DCs high enough, in which case summon things, always keep Maze and Forcecage memorized.  Meteor Swarm and quickened true strike is another method of bringing the pain.  

The last is just accept you will sometimes be unable to have a save high enough and just unload.  Even taking half damage some of these spells are going to be more damage than most want to deal with.  Or keep throwing instant kill spells at them until they roll low enough.


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## Kelleris (Nov 17, 2004)

> And about Arion?  At [o]ne [time] I see [a] ninja with murder in his eyes, [an]other time I see [a] bard[-]like guy ... playing [a] flute. First is [A]sian, [the] second is [E]nglish.*




Yeah, that's the idea.  The thing to pay attention to is whether he has Akumunaga drawn or not.  Basically, there are three personalities at work here.  Arion has a "base" personality, which is very, very bardic.  He makes snide comments, prances about giving speeches, and loses badly in melee combat of any kind.

Akumunaga's personality is sort of evilly good.  It was designed from the beginning to kill people by whatever means necessary, but it is only sentient because Arion (a basically good person, and nearly a pacifist) has infused it with that portion of his being and those memories that he doesn't want to deal with as being part of himself.  It's CG-CN, but an utterly ruthless version of said alignment.

When Arion has Akumunaga drawn (which he rarely does), these two are no longer separate personalities.  They effectively form one composite entity that has a skill set significantly different from that of "base" Arion, and generally have killing someone or otherwise navigating some exceptionally dangerous situation on their mind.  Think of this as being sorta like Arion goals and Akumunaga's methods.

*cough*

So I suppose the compromise here is to fill out the personality and appearance sections of my character sheet.      I've been meaning to do so, but other things keep eating up the discretionary time I would use for that.  I'm pretty lazy when it comes to that stuff anyway, as a rule...

* - I am a grammar nazi, just so you know.      I don't mean to offend you, and I'll stop if you ask, but I try to correct posted quotations.  Since you might be in the process of learning English, maybe you don't mind my corrections.



> Worth is a term so highly subjective that it loses meaning. The rules are an objective way of determining worth (well at least partially). Arguing with rules actually allows you to make a coherent arguement without falling back to the emotional.




That's funny, the designers of the game certainly seem to disagree.  In fact, they specifically say so in the GUIDELINES section you insist on referring to as a set of rules.  They say that you should compare the costs so derived with items of similar value, because the GUIDELINES are not infallible rules.  Wonder why they might've done that when worth is a meaningless term?  Or why worth is clearly the standard they used in actually pricing a fair number of items in the DMG?  Huh, how odd.

As for why I don't do what you did and boost my saves, it's for two reasons:  a) I think what you've done is cheesy beyond my tolerance levels, and I don't want to do something like that, and b) I think my saves are just fine, and I rather look forward to rolling some saves with my fingers crossed, hoping for some number above 2.  Plus, I've been saying we should all aim for some range (I proposed one, but I'm not married to it), not that you, in particular and in company with nobody else, should lower your saves.

I've been giving concrete examples all along, but since you don't realize that GUIDELINES are not rules, my major complaints will just meet with a shrug and a no, as you've amply demonstrated.  The mindset that abusing the pricing GUIDELINES with spells like _greater heroism_ is just being "efficient" and not dishonest isn't one that I can communicate with in any valuable way.  Aside from that, despite your supposed willingness to compromise, which I don't recall reading, you have never proposed a compromise solution to either something I have suggested for Arion or something someone has suggested for Rahveon.  I don't see this trend changing in the future, given how your arguments have run.



> Without going over CR 30 and without playing around with templates, I can reach 54 DC playing with non-exotic feats and items. That is just using the SRD. Throw in Epic spells (which have been banned from us, but not neccesarily from Isida) and that number goes through the roof.




Really?  I can't do it.  Perivas can't do it.  Maybe you can, but why should we force the DM to do something that's obviously quite difficult?  It seems to me that we should just let her make a reasonable NPC mage, without twinking him to the limit, and have him play well against us.  You seem to be of the opinion that we are playing _against_ the DM somehow, that she has a responsibility to make characters as broken as possible to counter our PCs, which are in turn as broken as possible.  Personally, I think we should make reasonable characters, so Isida doesn't have to cheat or scour her books looking for the optimal build to challenge us.


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## Ferrix (Nov 17, 2004)

I didn't realize people thought of Sigrun as bald.. maybe I have to relook at that picture I linked but he's really got a full head of hair.

I wouldn't mind taking my saves down a notch or two, give me some money to spend elsewhere (physical defense or something like that). The only reason I really did notch them up so much was to make them a slightly closer match to Rahveon's.

I find Kelleris has a good point that the guidelines in the back of the DMG for item creation are just that, guidelines and references to existing items should be made.  Sure that usually means the DM has to get involved, but I think some level of self-regulation is important.

I actually had a pretty good picture of Arion, and it basically comes off as how Kelleris described him, a fractured person depending upon whether the blade is out or not.  Glad I didn't go with my original concept or you guys would be twirling in your heads with a bipolar paladin/antipaladin.

About the saves, Sigrun can manage a DC 44 with say Energy Burst if I had chosen it as a power.  I'll make the save say 40% of the time, if it was a power that had a Will save however, say mind thrust which I can augment to a DC 44, I'd make the save 85% of the time.  If all my saves are up around +41 or more, then it's really not a challenge.  And although Sigrun isn't tweaked out for high DC's, the DC's he can manage are still quite respectable.


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## Wrahn (Nov 17, 2004)

They are guidelines, yes, for THE GAME MASTER.  Making assumptions without explaination or permission is only making the game masters job more difficult.  And no the designers agree with me, PLAYERS need to ask THE GAME MASTER if they want a change in the rules.

again,

We are PLAYERS, we get to follow the rules

Isida is THE GAME MASTER, she gets to follow the guidelines, if she chooses.

and Kelleris, I find it difficult to believe that someone who took a level of Duelist (3.0) has a maximum cheesiness quotient.

To get the 54 DC, all I did was take an Elder Titan, gave him a roll 18 Wisdom, moved some feats around to give him improved spell capacity (x6) and Improved Heighten, Amulet of the Arcanist, Inherent Bonus +5, +12 Enhancement bonus.  Plus school specialization, I probably could have gotten it higher, just didn't want to take the time to figure it out.  (Heighten x6 Implosion)

Playing around with templates and getting complicated can easily get higher DCs.  Ah well, some people I suppose would view the Elder Titan build as complicated, perhaps I have been playing the game too long as I don't.


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## Ferrix (Nov 17, 2004)

I would actually say an Elder Titan is no where near an "average" spellcaster.  When I normally look at average, I'm looking at ECL and CR, not just CR which is a whole other ball game.

A seventy hit dice outsider is not anywhere near the realm of a 30 HD human wizard.


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## Wrahn (Nov 17, 2004)

Ferrix said:
			
		

> I would actually say an Elder Titan is no where near an "average" spellcaster.  When I normally look at average, I'm looking at ECL and CR, not just CR which is a whole other ball game.
> 
> A seventy hit dice outsider is not anywhere near the realm of a 30 HD human wizard.




Yeah, the only thing they have in common is the same challenge rating.


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## Ferrix (Nov 17, 2004)

Yeah but the Elder Titan is ECL 70+,
Pit the Elder Titan against a wizard 30 and the wizard is toast.


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## Kelleris (Nov 17, 2004)

Blech...  Think I'm coming down with something...



> To get the 54 DC, all I did was take an Elder Titan, gave him a roll 18 Wisdom, moved some feats around to give him improved spell capacity (x6) and Improved Heighten, Amulet of the Arcanist, Inherent Bonus +5, +12 Enhancement bonus. Plus school specialization, I probably could have gotten it higher, just didn't want to take the time to figure it out. (Heighten x6 Implosion)




That is an insane number of hoops to jump through to make a completely twinked out save character.  Whether a 70-HD outsider should even be CR 30 is highly doubtful to begin with.  And you _still_ need all of a 13 with your worst save against his very best spells.  Your example is so skewed it's ridiculous.

You logic regarding the guidelines baffles me.  Well, it doesn't actually, but it would if I thought you were looking at it from an even remotely unbiased point of view.  Are you seriously saying that using the DM-only guidelines as the end-all and be-all rules is right, because they're somehow only guidelines for the DM?

As for the level of Duelist.  Yes, it is cheesy, quite so.  Which made me work all the harder to avoid the cheese in other areas, especially items.  Please note how few inanely underpriced items I have, if any.  Aside from that, let's look at how my AC stacks up against the rest of the party:

Arion: 57 (66 melee)
Sigrun: 47
Rahveon: 56
Solarion: 68
Caira: 37
Tsunami: 58
Pilmer: 54
Su'ryuu: 47

In other words, right into the upper-middle of the melee people.  I honestly think it's a bit high, but it matches well with my attack bonus, and I have to be able to stand in the same melees as the characters you made.  Arion has a high AC and low hit points, and I had to add some cheese to get that effect.

On the other hand, your lack of restraint is almost stunning.  The difference between the saves of the two characters you made and those of everyone else hardly needs to be pointed out yet again.  That was not done because your character should have good saves as part of his character concept, it was done because you could, and because you apparently have a phobia of rolling a d20.

Ferrix admits that he is willing to lower his saves if you are, and he's the only person even remotely in the same ballpark, and only because he wants to be able to save against the same things that Isida chooses to throw at you and the other character you made.  I think that makes the consensus opinion that your saves are cheesy to a much greater degree than my AC.

And, for that matter, if I thought I could get away with it, I would drop Duelist in a snap.  I really don't like having it on there, but the numbers of the people that I will be sharing melee space with necessitate it.

Or how about this?  I'll drop it anyway, if you'll agree to do something about your saves, along with the rest of us.  If the Duelist level is bothering you all that much, if you demand perfection before you'll agree even to improvement, I'd be willing to do that.


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## Kelleris (Nov 17, 2004)

Off Topic Post:  Just FYI, Ferrix, the second Dronus game thread is up.  You can find a link in any of the three OOC threads.


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Nov 17, 2004)

I am about two posts away from seriously kicking someone's butt halfway into next week.


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## Kelleris (Nov 17, 2004)

Please don't.  We started this thread specifically so you wouldn't have to worry about it, or even look at it.  If we decide to do anything major, we'll ask in the OOC thread, in nice polite language.  So far all that's happened is that I've dropped a feat that wasn't on your approved list to begin with.  

This is just to work things out so far offscreen that it doesn't even make the OOC headlines.  Please ignore us.    We don't want to bother you, which is why this thread is over here, away from the OOC thread that you do have reason to check often.


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## Rikandur Azebol (Nov 17, 2004)

*Grammar nazi ? I could find uses for thee. *



			
				Kelleris said:
			
		

> Yeah, that's the idea.  The thing to pay attention to is whether he has Akumunaga drawn or not.  Basically, there are three personalities at work here.  Arion has a "base" personality, which is very, very bardic.  He makes snide comments, prances about giving speeches, and loses badly in melee combat of any kind.




SO why You don't take instead of ,Practiced Spellcaster, some fasttalk feat ... or Dash or if it's epic, speed bump ? Bards who are pacifists by nature, know that fast legs and gold tongue are essential in their proffesion.    



			
				Kelleris said:
			
		

> Akumunaga's personality is sort of evilly good.  It was designed from the beginning to kill people by whatever means necessary, but it is only sentient because Arion (a basically good person, and nearly a pacifist) has infused it with that portion of his being and those memories that he doesn't want to deal with as being part of himself.  It's CG-CN, but an utterly ruthless version of said alignment.
> 
> When Arion has Akumunaga drawn (which he rarely does), these two are no longer separate personalities.  They effectively form one composite entity that has a skill set significantly different from that of "base" Arion, and generally have killing someone or otherwise navigating some exceptionally dangerous situation on their mind.  Think of this as being sorta like Arion goals and Akumunaga's methods.




Good ... so sword is ninja, and Arion is typical anime hero youth, yep ?  
Now it's all clearer. But sword still have hard time with this stubbor bleeding heart.   



			
				Kelleris said:
			
		

> So I suppose the compromise here is to fill out the personality and appearance sections of my character sheet.      I've been meaning to do so, but other things keep eating up the discretionary time I would use for that.  I'm pretty lazy when it comes to that stuff anyway, as a rule...
> 
> * - I am a grammar nazi, just so you know.      I don't mean to offend you, and I'll stop if you ask, but I try to correct posted quotations.  Since you might be in the process of learning English, maybe you don't mind my corrections.




Feel free to correct me, and be ready to explain.   
It is that obvious that english isn't my primary landguage ? Damn, why I still make so many mistakes ... where is perfection that I'm looking for. 



			
				Kelleris said:
			
		

> As for why I don't do what you did and boost my saves, it's for two reasons:  a) I think what you've done is cheesy beyond my tolerance levels, and I don't want to do something like that, and b) I think my saves are just fine, and I rather look forward to rolling some saves with my fingers crossed, hoping for some number above 2.  Plus, I've been saying we should all aim for some range (I proposed one, but I'm not married to it), not that you, in particular and in company with nobody else, should lower your saves.




I didn't boost my saves from just one reason. Tsunami have other protections wich make her almost invurnerable in meele against NORMAL cratures. And I would give Wrahn's Earthshaker CR 35 for elefant is almost indestructible. 

And If I know that my Maug could not make the save ... it forces me to think before wading carelessly into the combat. And force me to empasize tactics ! It will not end like my wizard, about wich I asked Wrahn earlier, who make himself doublesword with personality of 20 lvl fighter inside. And some CHEESY spells. (True strike, Tenser's transformation, Haste / once per day ) Enough to say that Riki could mop the floor with Fighter of equal lvl. WIch shouldn't be. Only these paladins are real pain in the ... ehem.   

I understand that Wrahn prepared Rhaveon for future, in advance, so I dare to speak. And don't be soo pinpointing abot nagging that elefant is broken, Kel. Just ask Wrahn about his motives, and if he would like ... he would explain. It's that simple.

To be honest I was learning this simple truth for years.  

Wrahn, did You created Rhaveon to be ready for taking on Gods ?   

Ferrix, sorry ... simply, because of memorised pictures from the PsHB I get impression that all psions should be bald. Didn't intend to make You uneasy. Good that I didn't write how in my mind's eye Zack's ... dragon-half is looking.


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## Wrahn (Nov 17, 2004)

Ferrix said:
			
		

> Yeah but the Elder Titan is ECL 70+,
> Pit the Elder Titan against a wizard 30 and the wizard is toast.




 welcome to the faulty nature of Challenge ratings, heaven knows that an Elder Titan would kick the crap out of an "average" 30th level caster all things being equal, but then again I think our group would beat the Elder Titan too.


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## Wrahn (Nov 17, 2004)

I find myself getting as exasperated as Isida.

for the time being I am going to ignore these rants and go with my original assessment, if there is a problem, we can address it later, right now, no one has shown me there is a problem.

Rikandur-

Some of the big dieties have DCs way beyond Rahveons save (Look at Thor DC 112 fort save or die every time he hits)

How Rahveon came to be is his name "Mountain-Shaker".  I thought of the name as being very epic and began building a character around it.  I knew the African Elephant Anthropomorphic Animal gave huge strength bonuses and that a Half-Dragon gave large bonuses also.  I have always liked the Dragon Disciple so I decided to go with that.  So that got me started thinking about how he would become one.

A tribal society seemed to be inspired by the favored class: Barbarian, leading me down the road of spirit worship.  Leading me to the great fire serpent spirit that protected the Undellas.  A dragon.  Then the question became why would such a dragon take a disciple?

Anyway, Bard as a lorekeeper seemed as good a reason as any to take bard and Holy Liberator is suggested from his wandering righting wrongs and the like.  Though since I posted right away with a build and had no access to my books I just excluded the Holy Liberator.

So to answer your question, no, I did not make my character specifically to stand against the gods.  I made him expecting to be the focal point of an enemies damage, to withstand things others could not, but I am not sure that I could make a character capable of standing up to at least some of the gods.


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## Rikandur Azebol (Nov 17, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Some of the big dieties have DCs way beyond Rahveons save (Look at Thor DC 112 fort save or die every time he hits)
> 
> So to answer your question, no, I did not make my character specifically to stand against the gods.  I made him expecting to be the focal point of an enemies damage, to withstand things others could not, but I am not sure that I could make a character capable of standing up to at least some of the gods.




God of Death may kill whole party with a glance, except Tsunami.  

I understand, and were suspecting as much, seeing his HP's. And saves. 
Rhaveon is so called "tank", guy who will recive blows that will make ribbons from all other kids. From the other point of view, without support he may quickly fell to massed "fire". Round after him, rest of  the party goes to their ancestors.   

And Yes, from my point of view Rhaveon can kill most of the gods who aren't combat oriented, in meele. At lest those from avaible to me sources. Infernal would be greater pain in the ... back, for Rhaveon than some of the gods.   

And Thor can be tricked. Look at Loki, he alvays have his way with this fool.    

Now I have full view of Rhaveon and I agree that he should have BIG saves.
You have my moral support now. Damn ... It was me who created character to be as self sufficent as possible ... Habit of being last man standing, I guess.   

And my wizard died, sob, Planetar assasinated him ... and took his soul to heavens for "trial". Sigh ... next one will be rogue.


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## Ferrix (Nov 17, 2004)

Well, let's get a jump on the IC thread then.


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## Wrahn (Nov 17, 2004)

Eep!  Planetar Assassin, shesh, your wizard must have done something very bad to get planetars to assassinate you.  Sorry to hear about the loss.


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## Kelleris (Nov 18, 2004)

Rikandur - Unfortunately the God of Death could just default to his second option: a severe beating.    

And I have learned through long personal experience that you can justify anything, no matter how cheesy, with some creativity in the background.  And Wrahn definitely has a cool background going.  For what it's worth (*sigh*) I agree that Rahveon should have high saves.  I just think there's a difference between "high and within reasonable limits" and "cheesy, broken-high."

Ferrix, could you add your additional Astral Construct levels (X - XIV?) to your character sheet?  I's like to see what they look like.  I'm thinking I can drop my AC and make it up with Expertise and fighting defensively.  On looking at the ELH creatures and whipping up some quick NPCs, it looks like the AC is okay (high, but that's what I wanted), but the attack bonus is just too high.

I'm not familiar with a universe in which a supposedly (hah!) CR 30 monster has an attack bonus of 87-72 and an AC of 58 (high for his level), and this purportedly makes sense.

Anyway.  Killing two birds with one stone here.  I'll be able to drop that icky Duelist level and cannibalize my too-high attack bonus to make up for it.  I'd just like to see your astral guys for reference (now and just generally speaking).


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## Ferrix (Nov 18, 2004)

I don't want to post it in my character sheet cause it'll take up four scrolling pages.  I'll try to search back in the OOC thread and put a link.


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## Kelleris (Nov 18, 2004)

Fair enough.  Just as long as everyone can get at it.  Don't suppose you remember the usual AC and attack bonus off the top of your head?


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## Ferrix (Nov 18, 2004)

Here's the links also, they're at the end of my char sheet as well.

*Links to Astral Constructor Stuff*
Related Feats
Epic Astral Constructs and Compiled Menus

Astral Constructs
10th level - Attack +36, AC 35
11th level - Attack +40, AC 37
12th level - Attack +44, AC 39
13th level - Attack +46, AC 41
14th level - Attack +50, AC 43
15th level - Attack +54, AC 45

I followed the general progression that they use in the existing astral constructs as my guideline, where AC's generally increased by 2 and attack increased by 4 (2 from BAB, 2 from increased strength) every level of the construct.


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## Kelleris (Nov 18, 2004)

How many list abilities can you give them?  I know one is the usual XPH limit, and that you have a feat that gives another...


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## Rikandur Azebol (Nov 18, 2004)

Kelleris said:
			
		

> Rikandur - Unfortunately the God of Death could just default to his second option: a severe beating.
> 
> And I have learned through long personal experience that you can justify anything, no matter how cheesy, with some creativity in the background.  For what it's worth (*sigh*) I agree that Rahveon should have high saves.  I just think there's a difference between "high and within reasonable limits" and "cheesy, broken-high."




Gods aren't that dangerous. My wizard, who were slain yesterday by LUCKY Planetar had two of them on his hitlist. Tredemous resouces were wasted but playing on all gods common weakness, arrogance, allowed him to lure both into point of no escape. These guys were so called combat oriented gods ... with major holes in magical power. And both were slain avay from Riki, he don't want to became one. In my campaing one who kills god, becames one. Riki avoided this fate twice. And on his homeland Prime along with second wizard in the group ... they destroyed churches of all known gods, second wizard installed ancestor worship in the religious hole that was left. Rki ended in Abyss ... became infamous. In short demons weren't even naming him. 

And I think that God of Death, if he is typical, and heals slower than Tsunami, would have hard time fighting her. Unless his AC is over the roof, say 65.   

Uchm, and remeber that Elefant have major drawbacks in addition to the power. No super-healing, like Tsunami, so he need to rest each time he take beating. That thing is balancing enough, for me. In Abyss he wouldn't last for too long. Too big for the Demon Princes to ignore ... and no skills at hiding for rest. 

Wrahn-No problem, I supose if this all would work ... that they would give my wizard sort of a body to anserv some questions. Then he would kill himself and vaporise his soul.  
Later his auto triggering "reviwe engine" should restore him. I was shocked mainly because it was first death for my wizard ! 
And, belive or not, if someone becames half-fiend just from being in Abyss ... then every Celestial may have reasons to attack him. And Riki stabbed her, unfortunaltely with his anti-fiend dagger, and ruined Celestial's disguise who was trying to redeem promising demon. Demon fled in dread,    , and not because of seeing celestial. And Riki is rude, and use harsh words even towards the women.

How many more resons could I give, to explain that Planetar could lost her nerves ?


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## Mad Hatter (Nov 18, 2004)

Wrahn, everyone is pretty much in the same ballpark.  Perivas is willing to change and drop a feat because Kell did and Ferrix is willing to change.  The only one holding up the show happens to be you.  So why don't you go ahead and conform to the group; because if Kelleris was on the receiving end you too would be bemoaning the point and demonstrating how he is being disruptive.

You're exasperated?  How about your fellow players who look over at your character sheet and see this massive block of cheese and brokenness that isn't even funny?  Your fellow players have a problem big enough that they are working together to get a solution and you simply look at the words and say:  "Well the guidelines support what I do."  Well how about showing a little constraint and consideration to the people who are playing with you?  What would it take?  How does that look that everyone else is willing to give up *something* and you aren't?  You just rely on the good ol' guidelines. 

So the only thing that's making me scratch my head is why are you fighting so hard over this?  The purpose of this thread was to identify major sticking points and then fix it.  Kell has fixed something, Perivas is going to fix something and Ferrix will fix it if you do.  So we are asking you, player to player, to fix it.  We've had this long, painful discussion about if what we do is cheese or not, fair or not.  The majority of it has been spent commenting on Rahveon the Mountain Shaker.  Shouldn't that be a clue that maybe, just maybe, the Elephant isn't up to snuff and should be changed to be more accomodating?  Be a sport and fix it. 

Rikandur-  Wrahn won't take a beating. I defy anything to get past his defenses at all and not kill someone else in the party.  Simply gaze upon his character sheet and notice his immunities granted to him by items.  He has every immunity that Tsunami has, plus some, save poison.  Then you can tell me that he is balanced.


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## Rikandur Azebol (Nov 18, 2004)

Mad Hatter said:
			
		

> Rikandur-  Wrahn won't take a beating. I defy anything to get past his defenses at all and not kill someone else in the party.  Simply gaze upon his character sheet and notice his immunities granted to him by items.  He has every immunity that Tsunami has, plus some, save poison.  Then you can tell me that he is balanced.




Let's compare:

Rhaveon- Immune to all death spells, magical death effects, energy drain, and any negative energy effects. Immune to Criticals and Sneak Attack, fire immunity.

Tsunami-Immune to all death spells, magical death effects, energy drain, and negative energy, immune to criticals,immune to ability damage/drain, subdual damage, poison, mind affecting spells.

I disagree about who have more and better immunities.   

Rhaveon can tire or be afraid. Tsunami ? Absolutly not. Elefant can heal as fast as Maug ? I doubt. He is just half as much in HP's, and in antimagic field would suffer terribly and be at big disadvantage. Most of Tsunami's immunites are inherent racial traits. She would just jump half distance that she could with magic. 

And if confronted with Arion, Elefant would lose. Why ? Arion could stole all his items, and armour, before Rhavon even notice. Sleigh of Hand ...  
And without his item induced immunites he would be as vurnerable to damage as anyone. Except Rogues with Dexterous Will and Fortitude. Sneaky guys are hard to kill.  

But You have a point. Rest of players involwed are changing, or changed, to fit the party better. Let's wait what Wrahn would say for such statement.


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## Wrahn (Nov 18, 2004)

Let me try this one more time.  Cutting away the histrionics the "saves" discussion thus far:

Kelleris:  I think all our saves are too high and we should lower them.

Wrahn:  I don't think there is any way to tell.  Let's wait and see before we do anything.

Neither side is being unreasonable.  Let's not dwell on this any longer, because all we are doing is circling the same subject and if we keep doing it we are going to go down the drain.


Mad Hatter-

Your post was inflammatory, inaccurate and unhelpful.  Please try to keep the negativity to a minimum, it is not a good way to debate and leads to unhelpful confrontations.


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## Wrahn (Nov 18, 2004)

Take this for what it is worth:
(I did not include Caira in the skills analysis, I am not sure what the number is (I think it is ranks but not sure))

Skills:
Arion 1069 (200% of average)
Su’ryuu 546 (102%)
Sigrun 539 (101%)
Solarion 460 (86%)
Tsunami 308 (57%)
Rahveon 286 (54%)

Average: 534.6666667


Saves:
Solarian: +143 (143% of average)
Rahveon:  +135 (135%)
Sigrun: +103 (103%)
Caira: +95 (95%)
Arion: +90 (90%)
Su’ryuu: +71 (71%)
Tsunami: +65 (65%)

Average: 100.2857143

So on skills we go from 54% to 200%
and saves we go from 65% to 143%

Should we all stay within a certain percent of each other?  
What is an acceptable range if we do?
And where is the percent range to prevent us from become monotenous?


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## Wrahn (Nov 18, 2004)

Rikandur-

immune to ability damage/drain

Is huge, I can't even tell you...  

(but I will try) I used to play a Shifter in an epic game, we had an enemy that could infect people with a disease and force them to join a hive mind, which then would mutate it's "extensions" to better suit it's needs.

One of the most powerful mutation was based on a Thorciasid which would have ripped us appart if I hadn't been able to turn into an Iron Golem.  Then it became pretty pathetic.

No, I will gladly give you the advantage in the special defenses and you get to fight all the Pseudonatural Bone Oozes we run accross.


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## Rikandur Azebol (Nov 18, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Rikandur-
> 
> immune to ability damage/drain
> 
> ...




Ops, I had overreached and assigned for Tsunami immunity that she have not. She isn't immune to negative energy attacks, thos that deal normal damage. 

Chmm, if it eat stone, she's snack. From the other way, Rhaveon might stop Elder Titan fev round longer than Tsunami. And with support of heavy artillery in shape of backstabbing Akumanga, for we couldn't count on Arion in this like Kelleris wrote himself, Titam might even feel some pain.   

Will You agree that our both fighters have their advantages and disadvantages ? And one more question, just out of curiosity, what would You point out as weak spots of Tsunami ? I had pointed out  what I consider to be waek spots of Mountain Shaker.


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## Rikandur Azebol (Nov 18, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Rikandur-
> 
> immune to ability damage/drain
> 
> ...




Ops, I had overreached and assigned for Tsunami immunity that she have not. She isn't immune to negative energy attacks, those that deal normal damage. 

Chmm, if it eat stone, she's snack. From the other way, Rhaveon might stop Elder Titan fev round longer than Tsunami. And with support of heavy artillery in shape of backstabbing Akumanga, for we couldn't count on Arion in this like Kelleris wrote himself, Titam might even feel some pain.   

Will You agree that our both fighters have their advantages and disadvantages ? And one more question, just out of curiosity, what would You point out as weak spots of Tsunami ? I had pointed out  what I consider to be waek spots of Mountain Shaker.


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## Ferrix (Nov 18, 2004)

Kelleris said:
			
		

> How many list abilities can you give them?  I know one is the usual XPH limit, and that you have a feat that gives another...




One base, 5 bonus (one from feat, 4 from constructor levels).


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## Wrahn (Nov 18, 2004)

Well, I tried to shore up what I thought were her major weaknesses when I made the item suggestions.

I still think she is low on hit points, the unfortunate part about that is it is extremely difficult to get her hit points.  It is one of the prices you pay to have all those cool immunities.  Her saves, particularly her reflex save could use some work, even taking half damage against some of these things is going to hurt.

I think you will be okay with your will save, not a lot is going to effect you there, but a lot of epic casters like disintigrate (40d6 damage, go figure).

So were I you, I would try and wrangle up some more hit points, and a few more points in saves.  Since you are not in the game yet, let me make another suggestion or two:

You have a keen scimitar, a scabbard of keen blades (I think I know what this does), and improved critical: Scimitar.  In 3.5 none of these abilities stack.  I would lose Improved Critical: Scimitar, maybe go with Greater Weapon Focus: Scimitar.

I would add:

Victor's Belt: +6 Enhancement Bonus to Strength and Dex, +5 Luck bonus to saves, +5 Insight Bonus to Reflex save.  (195,500)

The Cult of War was an ancient organization founded by Valthrog, who was thought to be an avatar of the god of war.  Even Hundred and sixteen years, seven months, three days, they held a great contest.  All who wished to come would gather in Valthrog's great arena and would fight until only one being was left standing.  The winner would be granted a prize.

The Empress decided it would be nice to have a new belt and ordered her champion to participate.  Three days later, Tsunami was the last contestant standing.  The Empress ordered her to wear it so she could display it.

(Predicated on the idea that a item that only adds to one save costs half as much)

Edit: Blah, blah, blah must read closer


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## Kelleris (Nov 18, 2004)

Ferrix -   

~~~~~~

Dang, I wish I'd thought of that percentage range thing.      Pondering that, and I'll get back to you later...

Rikandur - It's the classic undead problem.  You're immune to a lot of things, but very vulnerable to what you aren't immune to.  I think you come out okay, perhaps too low on saves (and I certainly wouldn't ask you to lower them).  Anything that corner-cases you will be a huge problem.  _Baleful polymorph_ is NOT YOUR FRIEND.

There's also another thing, and this is the one that really bothers me: you cannot be ressurected.  If you die, you are dead, and that's the end of Tsunami.  Even _true resurrection_ doesn't work on contructs.

Also, where is this fast healing coming from?  Did I miss something?  Please tell me you aren't just thinking the Maug rapid repair ability?  Please?  Because that's only one point an hour, by my Fiend Folio.  For total rest.  We each get more than that (in 24-hour blocks) just through natural healing.  And when the buff caster has 5 heal spells prepared, any fast healing below the double digits tends to be pretty extraneous.  I mean, any one of us could have taken the Fast Healing epic feat for 3/hp/round fast healing...


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## Wrahn (Nov 18, 2004)

Kelleris said:
			
		

> Ferrix -
> 
> ~~~~~~
> 
> ...




Having played with Tsunami's items a little, the Fast Healing comes from one of her rings (only works on Constructs, good item choice considering)

Yeah, you are right about the Ressurection thing.  Probably could do it with a wish or the psionic version there of...


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## Kelleris (Nov 18, 2004)

Maybe, but it would be more powerful than true res, and therefore in the "DM gets to mess with you" range of effects.

How fast is the fast healing?


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## Wrahn (Nov 19, 2004)

Fast Healing 3 for 400k I believe


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## Rikandur Azebol (Nov 19, 2004)

Kelleris said:
			
		

> Rikandur - It's the classic undead problem.  You're immune to a lot of things, but very vulnerable to what you aren't immune to.  I think you come out okay, perhaps too low on saves (and I certainly wouldn't ask you to lower them).  Anything that corner-cases you will be a huge problem.  _Baleful polymorph_ is NOT YOUR FRIEND.




Not so much, Tsunami stll have OC that any Drow would kill to have. Character lvl plus 14, and currently it is 40. I feel rather safe from casters of my CR. 



			
				Kelleris said:
			
		

> There's also another thing, and this is the one that really bothers me: you cannot be ressurected.  If you die, you are dead, and that's the end of Tsunami.  Even _true resurrection_ doesn't work on contructs.
> 
> Also, where is this fast healing coming from?  Did I miss something?  Please tell me you aren't just thinking the Maug rapid repair ability?  Please?  Because that's only one point an hour, by my Fiend Folio.  For total rest.  We each get more than that (in 24-hour blocks) just through natural healing.  And when the buff caster has 5 heal spells prepared, any fast healing below the double digits tends to be pretty extraneous.  I mean, any one of us could have taken the Fast Healing epic feat for 3/hp/round fast healing...




Like Wrahn pointed out My Fast Healing 3 is from item. Dang ... Extremly slow rate of Rapid Repair is alos bothering me greatly. Even with someone helping and Periapt of Wound Closure it is still 4 HP/h. I may look forward towards Faster Healing from "Masters of the Wild". Tweak it somewhat to suit it to constructs ... And it would give restless and helpless healing of 2 HP/hour, and 6 HP/hour if I manage to rest and get some care. 

As for dying. I'm certainly not intending to die ! Besides, if there could be Raise Outsider from 6 lvl divine, I could hire wizard to make Reconstruction from 7 lvl ... If Isida would allow. And for now, if You would want to reconstruct Tsunami and have some spare gold ... contact Thulkarr, leaders/fathers of the Maugs. Maugs certainly have their representative in Sigil.


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## Rikandur Azebol (Nov 19, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Well, I tried to shore up what I thought were her major weaknesses when I made the item suggestions.
> 
> I still think she is low on hit points, the unfortunate part about that is it is extremely difficult to get her hit points.  It is one of the prices you pay to have all those cool immunities.  Her saves, particularly her reflex save could use some work, even taking half damage against some of these things is going to hurt.
> 
> ...




What ? In scabbard description states clearly that its spell stack with feat or _keening_ of the weapon. And why take Greater Weapon Focus ? THese feats don't stack ... I belive.

Disintegrate ... Guess why my most expensive item is a shield, wich may help me with all those nasty touch attack spells.   

And I belive that wizbangs could toss no more than one spell per round ... new haste hiders them in this field. 

O course there alvays is Time Stop ... Byt it is one Meteor Swarm less to soak.

Low on HP ? Perhaps Yes ... but Rhavon have just about half as much, and can loose them even faster than Tsunami. I checked with my wizard ... 
3 _x_ demon skulls ( unholy wersion of meteor swarm ) and he looses half of his HP. Averagely. Key is to aim these that first wictim is hit with unsavable part, then some blasts cover him additionally. Rhaveon needs some OC ! Desperately and minimum 40 !    



			
				Wrahn said:
			
		

> I would add:
> 
> Victor's Belt: +6 Enhancement Bonus to Strength and Dex, +5 Luck bonus to saves, +5 Insight Bonus to Reflex save.  (195,500 gp)
> 
> ...




Aii ! With such wonderful description ... You are _mean_ Wrahn.    

Then what to drop ? Mirror, Tsunami never liked it. But its just 175 k. And Orb of storms, sigh no controlled weather then. And pay up for improvement of Longbow. 0.3k.


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## Wrahn (Nov 19, 2004)

Rikandur Azebol said:
			
		

> What ? In scabbard description states clearly that its spell stack with feat or _keening_ of the weapon. And why take Greater Weapon Focus ? THese feats don't stack ... I belive.




They used to, in 3.0, but in 3.5 no ability that increases the critical threshold stack.  (I looked specifically at the scabbard, it cast Keen Edge 3/day, Keen Edge has this line:  Multiple effects that increase a weapon’s threat range (such as the keen edge spell and the Improved Critical feat) don’t stack. You can’t cast this spell on a natural weapon, such as a claw.  sorry :\  )



> Disintegrate ... Guess why my most expensive item is a shield, wich may help me with all those nasty touch attack spells.




Good point, I had forgotten about that particular effect. 



> And I belive that wizbangs could toss no more than one spell per round ... new haste hiders them in this field.




For non-epic spell casters that is close to being true (they can throw a quickened spell in there too, but are limited to 1 quickened spell per round)

With Automatic Quickened Spell and Multispell, this become a lot more complicated.  Conceivable, a dedicated wizard could have Automatic Quicken Spell (0-9) and Multispell (x4) at 30th level, meaning he could throw 5 quickened spells and 1 normal spell in a single round.



> O course there always is Time Stop ... Byt it is one Meteor Swarm less to soak.
> 
> Low on HP ? Perhaps Yes ... but Rhavon have just about half as much, and can loose them even faster than Tsunami. I checked with my wizard ...
> 3 _x_ demon skulls ( unholy wersion of meteor swarm ) and he looses half of his HP. Averagely. Key is to aim these that first wictim is hit with unsavable part, then some blasts cover him additionally. Rhaveon needs some OC ! Desperately and minimum 40 !




In 3.5 for meteor swarrm, to make someone ground zero from a meteor swarm (and thus deny them a reflex save) you have to make a ranged touch attack.  6 meteor swarms, even making the save is a lot of damage, considering chances are they will be anything but fire and if someone was really interested in removing my character from the playing field, a meta magic rod of maximize in each hand could make things reall ugly (assuming they miss the ranged touch attack and I make all my saves it is still 432 points of damage)



> Aii ! With such wonderful description ... You are _mean_ Wrahn.




Sorry     



> Then what to drop ? Mirror, Tsunami never liked it. But its just 175 k. And Orb of storms, sigh no controlled weather then. And pay up for improvement of Longbow. 0.3k.




That is your decision.  It will increase your reflex save by 13 and everything else by 5.  I was suprised you didn't have an enhancement bonus to your strength.


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## Kelleris (Nov 19, 2004)

Mmmm...  You can't stack metamagic feats anymore.  Also, NPC gold is only 540,000 at 30th level.  They can't really afford to dual-wield greater metamagic rods, unless that's almost all they have.


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## Wrahn (Nov 19, 2004)

Kelleris said:
			
		

> Mmmm...  You can't stack metamagic feats anymore.  Also, NPC gold is only 540,000 at 30th level.  They can't really afford to dual-wield greater metamagic rods, unless that's almost all they have.




:scatches head:

You can not stack metamagic feats of the same type in 3.5 (no double empowered fireballs) but you can stack other types (quickened, widened fireballs for instance are fine).  SRD link  If you are talking about metamagic rods not stacking, it specifically says in their description that they can be used with caster known metamagic feats. SRD link

2 metamagic rods of greater maximize cost 243k, less than half the money they have available.  Need to get to 36 Int to get the 6th meteor swarm which is barely doable (standard 25 point buy, 8 Str, 10 Dex, 14 Con, 18 Int, 9 Wis, 8 Cha) +7 from level +5 from book +6 Enhancement items = 36 and an additional 173,500, but we were going to buy those anyway.

29th level Wizard, 1st level Archmage (for mastery of elements), making him a hobgoblin and buying off the ECL for +2 Dex and Con will nicely round him out.  If I get really bored at work today I will stat out Thrizilgreep, the Master of Green Rock Tower


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## Kelleris (Nov 19, 2004)

I meant that you couldn't double-maximize the meteor swarm.  I interpret that clause of the rod ("A caster may only use one metamagic rod on any given spell, but it is permissible to combine a rod with metamagic feats possessed by the rod’s wielder.") to mean other metamagic feats besides the one that the rod "stores the essence of."  Only one metamagic rod, only one iteration of any one effect, but any number of actual feats, in other words.

And less than half is a lot to spend on something that isn't going to increase their survivability.  That wizard's going to be either a very one-trick pony or extremely easy to kill.  And I doubt he'd win initiative over all of us.

And, actually, now that I think of it, since nobody wears armor anymore, he's going to have some trouble hitting with that touch attack for the meteor swarm against characters (and even a pretty good number of monsters).


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## Wrahn (Nov 19, 2004)

He is a wizard, it is the wizards lot to die, lol.

No, I agree you can't stack Maximize, but even if you could, it wouldn't do anything more than just one maximize.

The reason he needs both maximize rods for the 6 spells he is casting in the first round.  It was an example of bad-things-casters-can-do, it isn't meant to be a functional PC.  If you are really worried about Thrizilgreep, he could save the last spell for time stop maximize that, then drop somewhere around 16 or so delayed blast fireballs and then teleport out (assuming 5 scrolls).  So that is another 320d6 (or 1120 average or 560 pts if all saves are made, on average) but only 5 maximized meteor swarms (360 pts, assuming saves made) or a total of 920pts of damage, assuming all 36 saves are made and the caster is sipping tequila on the beach 1000 miles away.

Round break down if I wasn't clear above:

Rnd 1
Multispell1: Maximized Meteor Swarm
Multispell2: Maximized Meteor Swarm
Multispell3: Maximized Meteor Swarm
Multispell4: Maximized Meteor Swarm
Quickened: Maximized Meteor Swarm
Move: Puts Rods away
Standard: Maximized Timestop

Timestop1
Multispell1: Delayed Blast Fireball (5)
Multispell2: Delayed Blast Fireball (5)
Multispell3: Delayed Blast Fireball (5)
Multispell4: Delayed Blast Fireball (5)
Quickened: Delayed Blast Fireball (5)
Move: draw scroll
Standard: Read Delayed Blast Fireball (5)

Timestop2
Multispell1: Delayed Blast Fireball (4)
Multispell2: Delayed Blast Fireball (4)
Multispell3: Delayed Blast Fireball (4)
Multispell4: Delayed Blast Fireball (4)
Quickened: Delayed Blast Fireball (4)
Move: draw scroll
Standard: Read Delayed Blast Fireball (4)

Timestop3
Multispell1: Delayed Blast Fireball (3)
Multispell2: Delayed Blast Fireball (3)
Multispell3: Wall of Force
Multispell4: Wall of Force
Quickened: Wall of Force
Move: draw scroll
Standard: Read Delayed Blast Fireball (3)

Timestop4
Multispell1: Wall of Force
Multispell2: Wall of Force
Multispell3: Wall of Force
Multispell4: Wall of Force
Quickened: Wall of Force
Move: draw scroll
Standard: Read Delayed Blast Fireball (2)

Timestop5
Move: draw scroll
Standard: Read Dimensional Lock
Multispell1: Wall of Force
Multispell2: Wall of Force
Multispell3: Wall of Force
Multispell4: Wall of Force
Quickened: Teleport

Multiple walls of force layered is to prevent disintegrate, Dimensional lock (cast of course outside the area the mage is in) to prevent those pesky teleport and dimensional shifts.  This consumes all 5th 6th 7th 8th and 9th level spells.

It is arguable that he even needs to do the wall of force thing as he knows the exact moment of his timestop ending, setting it for the end of the timestop will probably have them detenotate at the moment time resumes.

And lastly you are absolutely correct, if one of us gets our hands on him he is dead meat, nothing he is going to be purchasing is going to change that.


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## Wrahn (Nov 19, 2004)

It is that kind of thing, by the way, is why I don't think Rahveon's saves are not too high and that his is actually poorly resistant to magic.  A single round from an "average" mage can reduce him and everything around him to a smoldering ruin

The DCs to make the saves are going to be somewhere around 35 to 37 (Greater Magic Flow cast and Greater Evocation school specialization), so Sigrun is not going to be taking much damage (I would make him and his really-easy-to-hit-with-a-ranged-touch-attack construct ground zero for the the meteor swarms which would pretty much be the end of them though (960 pts of damage assuming all 20 of them hit))  Assuming that he can get us when we are bunched.

The best protected of us is either Solarion (depending on what spells are active and what element he chooses, could be completely unharmed) or Caira (probably will need a 17 or 15 to penetrate the 51 SR)


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## Rikandur Azebol (Nov 19, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> They used to, in 3.0, but in 3.5 no ability that increases the critical threshold stack.  (I looked specifically at the scabbard, it cast Keen Edge 3/day, Keen Edge has this line:  Multiple effects that increase a weapon’s threat range (such as the keen edge spell and the Improved Critical feat) don’t stack. You can’t cast this spell on a natural weapon, such as a claw.  sorry :\  )




You have nothing to be sorry for.  It's game designers fault.  And I simply changed weapon enchancemaent from Keen to Defending. Decrease attack rating to get ... +10 AC ! Almost better than Arion's.   

I will stay with Feat, I have little paranoia about nasty thing called Antimagic Field. How much blood it spoiled for my wizardling ... Very frustrating when Your favourite spell just fizzles over these guys, and they laugh !     



			
				Wrahn said:
			
		

> Good point, I had forgotten about that particular effect.




I'm very glad You appreciate this little fact. 



			
				Wrahn said:
			
		

> For non-epic spell casters that is close to being true (they can throw a quickened spell in there too, but are limited to 1 quickened spell per round)
> 
> With Automatic Quickened Spell and Multispell, this become a lot more complicated.  Conceivable, a dedicated wizard could have Automatic Quicken Spell (0-9) and Multispell (x4) at 30th level, meaning he could throw 5 quickened spells and 1 normal spell in a single round.
> 
> In 3.5 for meteor swarrm, to make someone ground zero from a meteor swarm (and thus deny them a reflex save) you have to make a ranged touch attack.  6 meteor swarms, even making the save is a lot of damage, considering chances are they will be anything but fire and if someone was really interested in removing my character from the playing field, a meta magic rod of maximize in each hand could make things reall ugly (assuming they miss the ranged touch attack and I make all my saves it is still 432 points of damage)




That's why my DM was infuriated when Riki, instead playing fair spell tossing at each other ... Simply teleported behind his opponent and strangle him with bare hands. Not all wizards/sorcerers/clerics have Str 25.    



			
				Wrahn said:
			
		

> That is your decision.  It will increase your reflex save by 13 and everything else by 5.  I was suprised you didn't have an enhancement bonus to your strength.




I rarely use enchacements of any kind for warriors, more often wizards were tossing it on their allies in cruicial moments. Or on himself to snap the neck of the ogre like a twig.   

Ranged touch attack, guys who deviced it are insane after critical it will mean ... och toast from Rhaveon ... pool of melted marble from Tsunami, and shadows over the wall from anyone else in the party ! That's OBSCENE, like Isida spoke seeing Rhaveon's strength, but from the other way now I understand why these two gods just were gazing like kicked puppies when Riki's henchmen unleashed hell.

Chmm ... I think that I will drop idea of creating evil fiend, fiends are sissies 
Instead I would dare to create Invicible Sorcerer Kebidabu ! Riding 12-headed pirohydra. 

P.S. Guys ... ? Why disscusion so abruptly stopped ?

P.S.2. Zack, will Su'ryuu make Tiamat pay for her insulting behaviour ?


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