# [Bo9S] Notes on swordsage in play



## hong (Jan 26, 2007)

Had my first session with a 16th level swordsage today in an AoW campaign. You can see the build here:

http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3297520&postcount=13

Most of the fighting was against giants and dragons, although the first fight of the day was against a marilith. That one was fun, especially when I used One With Shadow and Greater Insightful Strike to impale it on my sword for 90 points of damage. I knew I had it on the run when it put up a blade barrier between me and it.  Things kinda fell away a bit after that, though.

First impressions are that the class is very much like a monk, only with a sword instead of fists, better armour, and these new funky things called maneuvers substituting for supernatural abilities.

- MAD is alive and well, with all of Str/Dex/Wis/Con contributing to combat output.

- Cleric BAB is a major downside if you want a character who can mix it up in combat. Lower chances of hitting, reduced opportunities to Power Attack, and fewer iterative attacks all add up.

- On the upside, the class can be very survivable; I had the highest or 2nd highest AC in the party, and the best saves. There's also maneuvers to foil your opponents' attacks, and boost your saves even higher if you want to be even more untouchable. And like the monk, it's also pretty flexible out of combat, although that didn't get touched on much in this session.

Overall the class is highly dependent on maneuvers for its combat ability. The maneuvers also don't synergise well with feats (and it's not like you've got a lot of feats anyway). Nearly all of them take either a swift, standard or full-round action to use, so things like Spring Attack don't work. This was frustrating since with only 140 hp, I really didn't want to end my turn next to a pissed-off giant if possible -- and if I had taken SA, I'd have been plinking away for ~20 points of damage each round. (By comparison, the dwarf barbarian had ~+40 atk bonus when raging, 270 hp, and regularly ended fights beaten down to < 100.)

Specific observations about maneuvers (Shadow Hand/Diamond Mind/Tiger Claw):

- The maneuvers that work off skill bonuses have the potential to cause problems, given how cheap skill boosters are in RAW. The two that I used regularly were Greater Insightful Strike (2x Concentration check as damage) and Swooping Dragon Attack (Jump check to jump over target, then Fort save DC = check result to avoid being stunned). GIS is without a doubt the best strike < 9th level in the Diamond Mind discipline, if you have a Concentration boost item (mine was +10). I'd say that either 6th level is a bit low for this one, or Diamond Nightmare Blade needs to be pumped up.

- Swooping Dragon Attack is saved from being outrageously broken by the requirement to "jump over the target", which we interpreted as a high jump (DC = 4x target height). This makes jumping over big creatures pretty tough. Depending on DM interpretation, the requirement can become easy even against big targets if you have flight/air walk, or manage to get into a position high up. Against Medium targets (and some Large ones), success is trivial using just SRD equipment and spells (haste, ring of jumping).

- GIS and SDA were so much better than all my other strikes that I ended up being something of a two-trick pony. Even just normal full attacking did pitiful damage compared to what these were capable of. Heck, I was calling GIS my custom coup-de-grace after finishing off two giants with 100+ point strikes each.

- One With Shadow is very useful both as a counter and also in conjunction with big-hit strikes like GIS. Dragons have normal AC ~40 and touch AC 8, and you don't want to waste your one GIS for the fight (leaving recharging aside).

- Faking Spring Attack via Shadow Blink, Shadow Jaunt and Quicksilver Motion gets expensive in terms of maneuvers spent.

Overall, is the swordsage broken? Going from my (limited) experience, I'd say not, although it does have the opportunity to grab the spotlight now and then. Is it powerful? Your answer to that will probably match your answer to the question of whether the monk is powerful, since there's so many similarities between the two classes. I'll note that in this particular session though, the other players ended up labelling the character as a tertiary combatant, not even a secondary combatant. Maybe I'll swop her out for a warblade next session.


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## Nifft (Jan 26, 2007)

Were you using the rule that Adaptive Style means you can recover ALL Swordsage maneuvers as a full-round action?

It's true that this cuts into your already meager feats, but it's such a GOOD one, since it rewards heavy maneuver use, escape, and then a round of recovery.

Cheers, -- N


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## hong (Jan 26, 2007)

Yeah, we used that rule. Even with that, spending one full round doing nothing is a pretty major cost. I'd have liked to be able to use GIS more than once in a fight without having to recharge.


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## bestone (Jan 26, 2007)

They get SICK SICK SICK! skill points, its insane

Yeah, i played with one recently, and he stole the spotlight, his ac was insane *having both an 20 in dex, anx 18 in wisdom* he was a level 3. All his feats went into the shadow whatevers that made his to hit and damage use dex, and he used some double sided weapon with some manuver that let him use both ends (28ac at level 3!)

his basic tactic was to be invisible, sneak up, and do some wierd attack, that immediately did a 10' burst of 6d6 fire damage or some such

We just found it a bit too much *we havent read the book yet tho, because that just seems off, i have bought it, and am looking at it now*

but from what i seen *be it false or true* i think they are just a bit much

Then again, that particular dm likes to do the whole mass of weeneis, boss mob, mass of weenies, boss mob, mass of weenies, bbeg style

lots of fights of small amounts of weenies, and solid abilities useable 1/encounter may have just been the problem


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## hong (Jan 26, 2007)

6d6 fire damage points to Fan the Flame, a 3rd level Desert Wind strike. You can't get 3rd level strikes as a 3rd level character.


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## Nifft (Jan 26, 2007)

bestone said:
			
		

> he was a level 3 [...] his basic tactic was to be invisible, sneak up, and do some wierd attack, that immediately did a 10' burst of 6d6 fire damage or some such




Death Mark, and you have to be 5th level to use it.




			
				bestone said:
			
		

> We just found it a bit too much *we havent read the book yet tho, because that just seems off, i have bought it, and am looking at it now*




You should go do that.

Cheers, -- N


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## bestone (Jan 26, 2007)

wow, just read that death mark, thats a crazy skill

you hit, and do weapon damage, then based on the creatures size it explodes for 6d6 damage (medium creature being 10'), useable 1/encounter


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## RigaMortus2 (Jan 26, 2007)

You do realize that a simple Fire Resistance spell can negate nearly the entire set of maneuvers from Desert Wind discipline.


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## RigaMortus2 (Jan 26, 2007)

Nifft said:
			
		

> Were you using the rule that Adaptive Style means you can recover ALL Swordsage maneuvers as a full-round action?
> 
> Cheers, -- N




Minor nitpick...  Adaptive Style doesn't let you *recover* your maneuvers.  It lets you Ready a new set (which can all be the same maneuvers you just used) which in turn makes them *immediately available for use*.

Recovery is a specific term with it's own mechanic.  Which happens to have a similiar effect.

It's a minor nitpick of mine.  Kinda like when people refer to all instances of someone losing their Dex bonus as being flat-footed.


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## Nifft (Jan 26, 2007)

RigaMortus2 said:
			
		

> Minor nitpick...  Adaptive Style doesn't let you *recover* your maneuvers.  It lets you Ready a new set (which can all be the same maneuvers you just used) which in turn makes them *immediately available for use*.




You are, of course, correct. I should have said "... means you can effectively recover ..." 

Thanks, -- N


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## RigaMortus2 (Jan 26, 2007)

Nifft said:
			
		

> You are, of course, correct. I should have said "... means you can effectively recover ..."
> 
> Thanks, -- N




I've spoken with my people, and we agree that this would be an acceptable way to put it 

You are effectively recovering all your maneuvers.  The only reason I like to make the distinction is that when people look it up, and they don't see any mention of the word "recover" in Adaptive Style, or any mention of the Adaptive Style feat in the Recovery section, it can cause miscommunication.


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## Nail (Jan 26, 2007)

Thanks for the info, hong.  Play experience is key to evaluating some of the abilities of a class.

Some abilities, of course, can be evaluated without play experience.  Like that wacky d12 HD for a WB.


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## satori01 (Jan 26, 2007)

Some Pretty Nice stats there Hong!.  I've found the Swordsage to be a fairly balanced class.  I DM for one that is 15th level and 3rd Level.

The Swordsage has not been at neither level the dominant combatant.
Manuever selection can play a key role in how the Swordsage plays.

The 15th level Swordsage/Master of Nine  seems to be primarily focused on the Burning Wind and Devoted Spirit chain.  I do know that he chose a maneuver from every school to maximize the bonus from Master of Nine.  Even with that, I can not say he out damaged any of the other warrior combatants.

Where the Swordsage did prove useful was in the Tactical Arena.  
The battle was a gigantic affair, played over 3 real days,  probably a total of 18 hours on a single battle.  The healing power of Devoted Spirit coupled with the ranged and Flaming Square powers of Burning Wind, coupled with Evasion, and some of the defensive swift DR granting powers of Stone Dragon School, and the character was pretty durable, despite having lesser HP.

In all a nice team player, however the Swordsage depends upon the player to utilize the correct power at the correct time, and like a sorcerer that has the wrong spells known in a circumstance, can be little more than an observer.

The 3rd level Swordsage seems to be specializing in Shadow Hand and Stone Dragon Maneuvers, which are proving to be especially useful.  The Shadow Hand stance that grants you concealment after moving 10' is particularly useful, especially when conjoined with the Stone Dragon boost that gives DR 5- for one round.

Allows a sneaky character to saunter up, strike, and survive the barrage that will come after the hit.


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## Mort (Jan 26, 2007)

Nail said:
			
		

> Thanks for the info, hong.  Play experience is key to evaluating some of the abilities of a class.
> 
> Some abilities, of course, can be evaluated without play experience.  Like that wacky d12 HD for a WB.




I wouldn't say that. 
The warblade has absolutely no range capability they have to get up close and hit stuff; that coupled with medium armor (and medium armor can impact some of their manuevers) really hurts. When I DM'd a 5th level warblade he needed every bit of that d12 hit die just to stay up. Plus becuase of MAD his damage dealing was nowhere near what I've seen barbarians capable of. So the d12 HD did not seem the least bit much. 
Line him up with the crusader (d10 hit die) and he comes up short because the crusader is constantly healing the damage he takes and dishing out a ton with furious counterstrike etc.

The swordsage in the group was pretty good, the stance that helps with flanking (Island of blades I think, don't have the books with me) was a great party aid. He would have been more effective if he'd rolled above a 4 to hit in 3 separate fights though.


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## blargney the second (Jan 26, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> Overall, is the swordsage broken? Going from my (limited) experience, I'd say not, although it does have the opportunity to grab the spotlight now and then.



Any class that can grab the spotlight now and then is all right by me.
-blarg


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## hong (Jan 27, 2007)

satori01 said:
			
		

> In all a nice team player, however the Swordsage depends upon the player to utilize the correct power at the correct time, and like a sorcerer that has the wrong spells known in a circumstance, can be little more than an observer.




Tell me about it.



> The 3rd level Swordsage seems to be specializing in Shadow Hand and Stone Dragon Maneuvers, which are proving to be especially useful.  The Shadow Hand stance that grants you concealment after moving 10' is particularly useful, especially when conjoined with the Stone Dragon boost that gives DR 5- for one round.
> 
> Allows a sneaky character to saunter up, strike, and survive the barrage that will come after the hit.




If you mean the various Stone Dragon stances that grant DR, combining them with Child of Shadow seems problematic. The former stop working if you move more than 5', while the latter requires you to move 10' or more. I guess you could work around this by carefully declaring when you move and when you change stances each round, but the intent certainly seems to be that they depend on entirely opposite things.


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## hong (Jan 27, 2007)

Mort said:
			
		

> I wouldn't say that.
> The warblade has absolutely no range capability they have to get up close and hit stuff; that coupled with medium armor (and medium armor can impact some of their manuevers) really hurts.




Not having range capability really doesn't mean a lot. Even if they did have proficiency with missile weapons, all of their maneuvers are still tied into melee, and they're going to have a twinked-out sword as opposed to a twinked-out bow. They're still going to be vastly more dangerous in close than far away. It's much the same with any build: you're always much more competent in your chosen specialty compared to other things you could do.

Medium armour only is possibly more limiting, but even then mithral full plate is cheap at high levels.


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## Krafen (Jan 27, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> If you mean the various Stone Dragon stances that grant DR, combining them with Child of Shadow seems problematic. The former stop working if you move more than 5', while the latter requires you to move 10' or more. I guess you could work around this by carefully declaring when you move and when you change stances each round, but the intent certainly seems to be that they depend on entirely opposite things.




The only Stone Dragon manuevers I know of that grant DR are strikes that grant  DR x/adamantine for 1 round if you hit with the strike. The only stance I know of that offers DR is Supreme Blade Parry (Iron Heart 8).


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## Mort (Jan 27, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> Not having range capability really doesn't mean a lot. Even if they did have proficiency with missile weapons, all of their maneuvers are still tied into melee, and they're going to have a twinked-out sword as opposed to a twinked-out bow. They're still going to be vastly more dangerous in close than far away. It's much the same with any build: you're always much more competent in your chosen specialty compared to other things you could do.






That's absolutely true, but the point is you are limited to a melee build without any real choice. Next you are not likely to have a huge AC - as a matter of fact a good number of stances and manuevers actually decrease your AC, so you're going to get pounded while in melee (unlike a fighter where you can choose defense over offense, the warblade is almost pure offense, yes there are some defensive manuevers but they are not that prevalent). I've just noticed that the warblade will get pounded, and unlike the crusader can't do much about it.



			
				hong said:
			
		

> Medium armour only is possibly more limiting, but even then mithral full plate is cheap at high levels.




Again true but:

1) Depending on build, full plate (or any med-heavy armor), even mithral will not be practical - Anything having to do with tiger claw or the more move oriented Diamond Mind builds will not sync well with any confining armor - even mithral.

2) I get tired of all mithral, all the time as I'm sure many DM's do- sometimes it's just not going to be available to the players (even high level ones) easily.

Point is the d12 seems to balance out in play with how much damage the warblade takes while doing his schtick.


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## hong (Jan 27, 2007)

Krafen said:
			
		

> The only Stone Dragon manuevers I know of that grant DR are strikes that grant  DR x/adamantine for 1 round if you hit with the strike. The only stance I know of that offers DR is Supreme Blade Parry (Iron Heart 8).



 Oops, I got mixed up.


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## blargney the second (Jan 27, 2007)

I think it'd be kind of fun to play a dragonborn warblade with the breath weapon option for ranged attacks.


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## hong (Jan 27, 2007)

More thoughts on the session:

- Pouncing Charge saw some use, but since my BAB isn't that high, the iterative attacks tended to miss. Maybe in combination with One With Shadow it would have been more effective -- but that would also mean no Str bonus to damage, and I'd rather save OWS for GIS.

- I never used Rabid Bear Strike. Maybe I should have used it more, but an extra +10d6 damage didn't seem that great at the time.

- Bloodletting Strike could have been useful (4 Con damage, Fort save for half).

- I used Emerald Razor + Power Attack once, but that only added up to 40-odd damage.

I generally went into fights with 4-5 strikes readied, with save and move maneuvers making up the rest. I didn't end up needing any of the save counters, but by Murphy's law as soon as I drop them I'll end up needing them....

Choosing which maneuver to use was also made more complicated by the constraints on actions in a round. Eg I can use raging mongoose to get extra attacks, but that means no teleporting away afterwards. Or I can use cloak of deception, but not if I've already changed stances. Etcetera. This is possibly the system working as designed.

Not only does the medium BAB hurt the damage output, but also all those Setting Sun maneuvers that depend on opposed attack rolls. I didn't see much point picking up (and readying) a maneuver to redirect an attack 1/encounter when my attack bonus is +28 at best, including party buffs. (Don't forget also that every immediate action used to evade an attack is a swift action that could have been used for a boost.)

Now that I look at it again, a pure swordsage seems designed more for the sneaky/JOAT end of the spectrum: a great class to solo a dungeon with, but a fifth wheel in a party environment. Since I was looking for someone who could mix it in a fight, maybe I should have multiclassed with warblade. It stands to reason that a more martial-oriented character would borrow stuff from the martial specialist class.


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## ohGr (Jan 27, 2007)

Krafen said:
			
		

> The only Stone Dragon manuevers I know of that grant DR are strikes that grant  DR x/adamantine for 1 round if you hit with the strike. The only stance I know of that offers DR is Supreme Blade Parry (Iron Heart 8).



Roots of the Mountain (Stone Dragon 3, stance) gives you, among other bonuses, DR 2/-.


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## Nail (Jan 28, 2007)

Mort said:
			
		

> That's absolutely true, but the point is you are limited to a melee build without any real choice..



Nonsense, my good man.

Your choice was to take the class.  The class is optimized to be a melee combatant.  How does being optimized to be a melee combatant make the class weak enough to get all of the extra benefits (like d12 HD)?


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## Slaved (Jan 28, 2007)

Nail said:
			
		

> Your choice was to take the class.  The class is optimized to be a melee combatant.  How does being optimized to be a melee combatant make the class weak enough to get all of the extra benefits (like d12 HD)?




Since his point is that with the class you are limited to melee then saying you could have been something else does not really seem to hold any weight.

It is limited to melee almost exclusively and it only goes up to medium armor. Plus it has some multiple attribute dependency issues.

Very similar to the barbarian really.


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## Olaf the Stout (Jan 29, 2007)

Not quite up with the Bo9S acronyms.  Can anyone tell me what MAD stands for?

Olaf the Stout


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## Sithobi1 (Jan 29, 2007)

Multiple Ability Dependency. It means you need many high ability scores, like a Monk or Paladin.


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## Olaf the Stout (Jan 29, 2007)

Sithobi1 said:
			
		

> Multiple Ability Dependency. It means you need many high ability scores, like a Monk or Paladin.




Thanks.  I thought it might be something like that.  I got the M and the A but I couldn't figure out what the D might stand for.

Olaf the Stout


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## Nifft (Jan 29, 2007)

From what I've seen (building them more than playing them), the Warblade matches up very well with a Barbarian.

The light armor, the amazing hit points, the damage output -- but a Warblade can buff the whole party (with White Raven maneuvers), while a Barbarian doesn't have to use Swift actions to fuel his save and damage bonuses, and gets more full attacks.

 -- N


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## hong (Jan 29, 2007)

Olaf the Stout said:
			
		

> Thanks.  I thought it might be something like that.  I got the M and the A but I couldn't figure out what the D might stand for.
> 
> Olaf the Stout



 Mang, where you BEEN these last few years, Olaf? That acronym has been in use on EN World for ages.

Oh that's right, you got LOCKED OUT of the site. HAW HAW!

Erm.


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## Olaf the Stout (Jan 29, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> Mang, where you BEEN these last few years, Olaf? That acronym has been in use on EN World for ages.
> 
> Oh that's right, you got LOCKED OUT of the site. HAW HAW!
> 
> Erm.




Now that's not very nice!    

Stupid internet and its not working.

Olaf the Stout


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## hong (Feb 4, 2007)

I had my second session with the swordsage last night. Things went better in this one than the first, so the unfamiliarity factor is probably receding. Good enough for me, although the king of the spotlight was undoubtedly someone else.

The first fight was against a half-dozen dragons besieging the giants' fortress. These were size L blacks and H blues... which, against an EL 17 party, is pretty much meat.  The dwarf barbarian is an engine of destruction once he winds up, and the spellcasters chipped in with various boom spells to add to the slaughter.

The SECOND fight ended with us running away, tails between our legs. The dwarf doesn't have a tail, so he substituted his intestines instead. This was against a named fang dragon, buffed to the gills with spells. We dispelled the buffs, but by this time the dwarf had been taken to -50 hit points and was only saved by the PHB2 feat that lets you delay damage/effects suffered to the end of your round. It's like 3/4 of the good bits of the frenzied berserker, without any of the bad bits.

The THIRD fight had us quaking in our boots initially, but ended up being relatively easy -- not that it saved the dwarf from having his guts removed a second time. This was against Brazzemal the red dragon, after we blew up the dracolich phylactery he was looking for. A combination of grasping hand (? the spell that forces a save each round to avoid being stunned), Swooping Dragon Strike and reactive counterspelling meant that he lost quite a few rounds doing nothing, although he still managed to rip the dwarf a new one. I can also confirm that Greater Insightful Strike is very useful for cleaving inanimate objects... such as, I dunno, a phylactery.

The FOURTH fight was part of the next AoW module, taking place in the Wormcrawl Fissure, wherever that is. All I know is that it contains a bunch of kobolds who follow some red dragon called Brazzemal who used to live in some fire giant cave that was too small for him and had 666 gems stuck in his belly or he did before we cut them out, along with his horns which are now adorning the dwarf's helmet. Or something. And chimeras.

Undead chimeras.

Undead chimeras dripping with WORMS THAT EAT YOUR BRAIN!

Undead chimeras... that had the party very happy because their holy undeadbane Kyuss-bane silver weapons dealing an extra 6d6+4 damage per hit could FINALLY be used to full effect. It was a slaughter, and not of the party members. Not that I approved of such one-sided violence, partly because it ran counter to the sense of dread and foreboding that the designers undoubtedly wanted to invoke, but mostly because I didn't have such a weapon. D'OH!

Some people maintain that there is a rich and detailed storyline connecting these random instances of violence, but after careful study, I have come to the conclusion that they were mistaken.

Greater Insightful Strike is now established as my workhorse attack, often in combination with One With Shadow. Even now that I have 5-Shadowcreepingiceenervwhatnot, nothing else deals as much damage in as reliable a fashion. Swooping Dragon Strike runs a close second, tempered only by the desire not to abuse it so much that the DM clamps down. A DC 60 Fort save to avoid being stunned is just stupid, so I've suggested turning it into either dazing or staggering (which is still pretty bad).

The session overall was an interesting contrast with the first one. In the first session we were fighting mostly giants with crap ACs, which I could hit easily even with my middling attack bonus. This time it was dragons with AC in the 40s, and without One With Shadow, I'd have been wasting a big chunk of my strikes. It's been noted that this mirrors the experience of spellcasters, who often have big spell effects contingent on the target failing the save.

I'm finding the per-encounter limit on maneuvers to be quite a major factor in my tactics. While it's true that they refresh after every fight, typically _within_ each fight I was always careful about what to use. This is very different to, say, a sorc who can just blast away with scorching rays every round with impunity. Heck, even a wiz at 17th level has enough spells that running out isn't a concern (you'll run out of hit points before running out of spells, and that's a limit that applies to everybody). I'd say that Adaptive Style refreshing all of a swordsage's maneuvers is necessary, if you don't want them to be ineffectual for half of each combat.

The movement maneuvers (Shadow Hand teleport, Quicksilver Motion) are great for saving one's bacon, with the proviso that they can be used only once. I finished the fight with Brazzemal untouched, save for when I rolled a 1 to save against his Tempest Breath and took 4 points of damage. A good save to roll a 1 for.  I can only imagine how annoying I'd be if I had some of the counters from Setting Sun... probably not that annoying, actually, given they mostly rely on opposed rolls (Str, Dex, attack) and trying that against size L, H and G monsters sounds like a losing proposition.

Plans: assuming I don't get turned into wormfood in the Fissure, I'm intending to get Diamond Nightmare Blade next level. Combined with the true strike I got enchanted into my sword during a momentary lapse of reason from the DM, that should make for some good cheese smackdown potential -- at the least, it'll reduce my dependence on GIS. I still won't be matching the dwarf for sheer carnage, but since I'm (usually) not risking my entrails in each fight I can't complain.


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## blargney the second (Feb 4, 2007)

That was awesome.

Do it again!


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## hong (Mar 4, 2007)

So, 3rd session tonight. Long break due to other stuff getting in the way.

Picked up diamond nightmare blade. Picked up swift-action true strike 1/day, enchanted into my sword (the DM was well-apprised of what was coming). Got everyone's attention.

- 196 points of damage against some hideous flesh-construct aberration in a lich's fortress, taking it down.

- 201 points against the lich the next day, after winning init. Lich goes down without getting a shot off. I said to the others that I'd be bragging online if I broke 200 hp, so here I am. 

- 201 points against some huge worm-like creature at the entrance to the Tabernacle of Worms (Dragotha's immense underground lair), destroying it in one blow. This was without the true strike, since I was saving it for Dragotha; simple max-Power Attack against low AC.

- 180 points against one of Dragotha's minions, again taking him down in one blow (again, no true strike).

I'll revise my evaluation of diamond nightmare blade; it's hideous against low-AC creatures, and middling-AC ones if you have true strike. Against high-AC ones you're mostly still better off with greater insightful strike + one with shadow.

It should be noted that some of the encounters in the Wyrmcrawl Fissure don't seem to be that tough, the above cheese notwithstanding. In another fight, we met a giant crawling undead worm-sorcerer thing, 80 ft long... the archer hits it for >100 points from 5 arrows, the wiz drops a meteor swarm on it for another 116 points, and it's dead. No Con bonus makes for fragile undead.

OTOH we've met an NPC who gave us a foreshadowing of Dragotha's stats: 800+ hit points, SR 35 and AC >50. Now that will be something different. We've got some plot-device items/effects that will help against him, but we're still scared shitless.

I believe I've got the hang of juggling strikes, boost and counters now. I use almost no boosts, which incidentally means the 20th level swordsage ability is of questionable value. Counters OTOH are immensely useful, especially one with shadow (turn incorporeal), which saved me from being bitten for >50hp, a slay living, an enervation, and other crap.


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## Nail (Mar 4, 2007)

Hong: your analysis is blindingly useful.  Thanks!


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## Slaved (Mar 4, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> - 201 points against some huge worm-like creature at the entrance to the Tabernacle of Worms




With diamond nightmare blade? Were you using it as rolling 4 times at once and adding it all together or rolling once and multiplying by 4? Just curious.


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## hong (Mar 4, 2007)

Slaved said:
			
		

> With diamond nightmare blade? Were you using it as rolling 4 times at once and adding it all together or rolling once and multiplying by 4? Just curious.



 ?

DNB causes a successful hit to deal 4x damage. So for a bastard sword with -12/+24 Power Attack, that's (1d10 + 21 + 24) x 4 = 4d10 + 180.


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## 3d6 (Mar 4, 2007)

> *Multiplying Damage*
> 
> Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results. Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage.
> 
> _Exception:_ Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied.



SRD link.


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## Slaved (Mar 4, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> ?
> 
> DNB causes a successful hit to deal 4x damage. So for a bastard sword with -12/+24 Power Attack, that's (1d10 + 21 + 24) x 4 = 4d10 + 180.




4x damage could be (d10+21+24)x4 or 4d10+84+96, I was just wondering when you did the multiple.

Since you roll 4 times for this ability do you do a similar thing for criticals or do you just multiply the result? Also, for a 2x crit weapon would you wind up doing 8x total damage or 5x total damage in your opinion?


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## hong (Mar 4, 2007)

Slaved said:
			
		

> 4x damage could be (d10+21+24)x4 or 4d10+84+96, I was just wondering when you did the multiple.
> 
> Since you roll 4 times for this ability do you do a similar thing for criticals or do you just multiply the result?




Er, crits RAW have always been roll multiple times, add up. Dunno what you've been doing....



> Also, for a 2x crit weapon would you wind up doing 8x total damage or 5x total damage in your opinion?




A x2 crit with DNB would be total 5x damage, a x3 crit would be 6x damage. This is in the maneuver description, and consistent with the general D&D rule for adding multipliers.


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## Nifft (Mar 4, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> I believe I've got the hang of juggling strikes, boost and counters now. I use almost no boosts, which incidentally means the 20th level swordsage ability is of questionable value. Counters OTOH are immensely useful, especially one with shadow (turn incorporeal), which saved me from being bitten for >50hp, a slay living, an enervation, and other crap.




Interesting. I'd've thought stances would be doing more heavy lifting, particularly if you're not using boosts much.

Do counters eat all your swift actions?

Cheers, -- N


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## Slaved (Mar 4, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> Er, crits RAW have always been roll multiple times, add up. Dunno what you've been doing....




I am just asking what you all did in your group. Sorry if that is a problem.


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## hong (Mar 4, 2007)

Nifft said:
			
		

> Interesting. I'd've thought stances would be doing more heavy lifting, particularly if you're not using boosts much.
> 
> Do counters eat all your swift actions?
> 
> Cheers, -- N



 There just don't seem to be that many good boosts. Cloak of deception (turns you invisible for 1 round) is nice, but for most of the monsters we've fought, it's the armour that's the problem, not a gigantic Dex bonus. Raging mongoose (2 extra attacks as a swift action) could be good for other builds but for me it just didn't come up that much.

Counters do seem to eat a few actions, mostly the save ones to avoid instakill spells. When they run out, one with shadow is another way to do the same thing.

Stances I tend to set once, and forget about them. Mostly I switch between balance on the sky (air walk) and leaping dragon stance (for the Tiger Claw strikes that require jumping).


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## blargney the second (Mar 4, 2007)

Any chance you could post the basic stats here? 
-blarg


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## hong (Mar 5, 2007)

Well, looks like the next session won't be until the 31st, so that's 3 sessions in 2 months... good thing I got the DM to approve diamond nightmare blade now.

Stats follow. Yeah, I deviated from the pure swordsage path just to see what warblade could add. I've been very indecisive about this character so far, actually; at first I wasn't going to get diamond nightmare blade, then I thought of taking a scout level, then changed my mind.


*Padma Illindra [redux]*

Female human swordsage 17/warblade 1
LG Medium humanoid (human)
*Init* +18; *Senses* Listen +26, Spot +6
*Languages* Common, Old Suloise
________________________________________
*AC* 37, touch 27, flat-footed 30 (Dex +6, Wis +6, armor +8, deflection +3, natural armor +2, insight +1, dodge +1)
*hp* 196 (18 HD)
*Resist* improved evasion
*Fort* +20, Ref +22, Will +21
________________________________________
*Speed* 30 ft
*Melee* _Sakhalandra (Spiritreaver)_ +26/+21/+16 (1d10+15/19–20) or masterwork rapier +21/+16/+11 (1d6+7/18–20)
*Base Atk* +13; *Grp* +19
*Atk Options* insightful strike (Diamond Mind, Tiger Claw), martial discipline weapon (Tiger Claw), Blade Meditation (Diamond Mind), Power Attack, Acrobatic Strike, boots of speed
*Combat Gear* 2 flasks universal solvent, 2 potions of cure light wounds
________________________________________
*Swordsage Maneuvers and Stances Known* (IL 17th):
Stances — stance of clarity (1st), child of shadow (1st), assassin’s stance (3rd), leaping dragon stance (5th), balance on the sky (8th)
Strikes — shadow blade technique (1st), emerald razor (2nd), claw at the moon (2nd), insightful strike (3rd), death from above (4th), bloodletting strike (DC 21) (5th), pouncing charge (5th), rabid bear strike (6th), greater insightful strike (6th), swooping dragon strike (7th), diamond nightmare blade (8th), five-shadow creeping ice enervation strike (DC 25) (9th)
Boosts — cloak of deception (2nd), shadow stride (5th), moment of alacrity (6th), quicksilver motion (7th), shadow blink (7th)
Counters — moment of perfect mind (1st), action before thought (2nd), mind over body (3rd), one with shadow (8th), diamond defense (8th)
Disciplines: Diamond Mind, Shadow Hand, Tiger Claw​*Warblade Maneuvers and Stances Known* (IL 9th):
Stances — punishing stance (1st)
Strikes — disarming strike (2nd)
Counters — iron heart surge (3rd), iron heart focus (5th)
Disciplines: Iron Heart​________________________________________
*Abilities* Str 22, Dex 22, Con 22, Int 12, Wis 22, Cha 13
*SQ* battle clarity (Reflex saves), defensive stance (Shadow Hand, Tiger Claw), weapon aptitude
*Feats* Dodge, Great Fortitude, Blade Meditation (Diamond Mind), Unnerving Calm, Power Attack, Adaptive Style, Acrobatic Strike, Weapon Focus (rapier, shortspear, trident, bastard sword), Improved Initiative
*Skills* Concentration +39, Balance +33, Jump +34, Tumble +33, Knowledge (martial lore) +21, Listen +26, Sense Motive +26, Intimidate +21, Diplomacy +5
*Possessions* combat gear plus Sakhalandra, +4 mithral chain shirt, gloves of Dexterity +6, periapt of Wisdom +6, shirt of Constitution +6, belt of giant Strength +6, ring of protection +3, bracers of natural armor +2, cloak of resistance +5, headband of Concentration +10, ring of agility +5, boots of speed, dusty rose ioun stone, handy haversack, masterwork rapier, 9,245 gp


_Sakhalandra (Spiritreaver):_ This +5 ghost touch, martial discipline, cold iron bastard sword is attuned to the arts of the Tiger Claw, and is infused with a portion of the great mage Balakarde’s vengeful spirit. It grants its wielder a +4 insight bonus to initiative, a +2 luck bonus to Strength and Constitution, and, once per day, the benefit of a quickened true strike. Price 130,370+ gp. (init and stat boosts are from the AOW module)


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## Hypersmurf (Mar 5, 2007)

Slaved said:
			
		

> I am just asking what you all did in your group.




If you can explain to me how to roll 50.25 on d10+21+24, I'll understand your question better 

-Hyp.


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## hong (Mar 5, 2007)

Hmm... I wonder if the swordsage Weapon Focus could be used with the warblade weapon aptitude. Not that it's likely to matter in this case.


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## Slaved (Mar 5, 2007)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> If you can explain to me how to roll 50.25 on d10+21+24, I'll understand your question better
> 
> -Hyp.




Is that relevant to my question in some way?


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## Elethiomel (Mar 5, 2007)

Slaved said:
			
		

> Is that relevant to my question in some way?



Yes. In order to come up with an odd number, you must multiply an odd number with an odd number, or a non-whole number with an even number. Since we're talking about a multiple of 2 for the attack, an odd-numbered result indicates that they roll X number of dice instead of just rolling dice and multiplying by X.


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## Slaved (Mar 5, 2007)

The odd number was why I asked in the first place. I had been going to follow it up with a question of how the odd number was reached if he had said multiply and I had assumed that if it was the case then there would have been some damage reduction that was an odd number. Since there are odd number damage reductions out there that would have been a perfectly viable answer either way.

But going that far was not really necissary given the answer. The question afterwards about the crit multiplier was just to see how they were doing it as each group does it differently. Plus the wording for each part of the ability in question could be interpreted in multiple ways depending.


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## Hypersmurf (Mar 5, 2007)

Slaved said:
			
		

> The odd number was why I asked in the first place. I had been going to follow it up with a question of how the odd number was reached if he had said multiply and I had assumed that if it was the case then there would have been some damage reduction that was an odd number.




It seems like a perfect time for an application of Occam's Razor.

Given the figure of 201, either:

a/ they play crits by the rules, or
b/ they have a house rule on crits, and also there was some damage reduction he neglected to mention in his original post to account for the final figure not matching the hypothetical house rule.

Me, I'd be happy to assume a/ is correct, unless compelling evidence later came to light to make me change my mind...

-Hyp.


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## Slaved (Mar 5, 2007)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> It seems like a perfect time for an application of Occam's Razor.




Apparently asking a simple question here is treated very poorly.

In any event, 201 could have been from having the damage reduced by damage reduction. No house rules needed.

All I did was ask a couple of simple, noninvasive questions, to see how another group did the bookkeeping. Thanks for making it into a chore and forcing me to regret being curious. Good job guys.


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## Hypersmurf (Mar 5, 2007)

Slaved said:
			
		

> In any event, 201 could have been from having the damage reduced by damage reduction. No house rules needed.




The house rule is multiplying a single damage roll, rather than adding multiple damage rolls.

-Hyp.


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## hong (Mar 5, 2007)

Geez, doesn't anyone want to hear me talk about my character?


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## Slaved (Mar 5, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> Geez, doesn't anyone want to hear me talk about my character?




Yes I do actually. Have you gone through any long or drawn out battles where you have run out of maneuvers yet? I really want a round by round account of that battle with the 800+ hit point and >50AC creature!


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## Nail (Mar 5, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> Geez, doesn't anyone want to hear me talk about my character?



<raises his hand>


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## blargney the second (Mar 5, 2007)

*raises his available hand*


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## Nail (Mar 5, 2007)

Specific Question: What your most common "recharge routine"?  How often, what's the melee situation, which maneuvers that - once spent - do you immediately recharge for, etc.


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## hong (Mar 5, 2007)

Slaved said:
			
		

> Yes I do actually. Have you gone through any long or drawn out battles where you have run out of maneuvers yet? I really want a round by round account of that battle with the 800+ hit point and >50AC creature!




We haven't done that one yet. That's Dragotha the dracolich, who we assume is waiting for us at the end of this dungeon.

I did run out of maneuvers in the last fight of the session though, against 6 of his minions (funky humanoid clerics). It wasn't a particularly tough fight, although a wall of stone that split the party delayed the end by a few rounds. I ran out right at the end, and we were joking that now I'd be reduced to doing 1 point of damage per hit. Going from thunderbolts to thumbtacks, as it were.

The more memorable fight for me was against the flesh-construct aberration. We found a huge force-vat containing a hideous soup of body parts and stuff. I mean, the dishes in _Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom_ had nothing on this baby. Naturally, operating on the assumption that everything found in the dungeon was to be either a) looted or b) destroyed, and this was too big to loot, we destroyed it. All the body parts came flooding out and combined into Voltron a massive flesh-thing that wanted to eat us. The nerve! We did not come into this dungeon to battle against foodstuffs that don't know their place, let me tell you. So we fight.

After a few rounds, the lich in whose lair we were fighting had the temerity to interrupt proceedings. (He'd already interrupted us before, when we demolished a couple of other, smaller, flesh-construct things.) First he put a maximised ball lightning (Spell Compendium?) on top of the dwarf barbarian, which was not nice... then he put a black blade of disaster on top of me, which was even more not nice.

Of course, I didn't really want to save each round against a disintegrate effect, so I figured this was as good a time as any to unleash the big smite. The blade of my sword crackles with an eldritch blue glow as I activate true strike, and I wind up and Power Attack for max, dealing 196 points and exploding the horrible flesh-thing into a shower of Kyuss worms and gore. With the aid of improved evasion I deftly avoid the rain of flesh-eating worms and come out the other side in a suitably dramatic pose.

Until I remember the damn black blade of disaster is still floating on top of me, so I run away and hide in a corner, out of sight of the lich. Same corner as where the dwarf is hiding from the ball lightning, in fact.

Other player is like "you were holding back before this, weren't you?" and I'm like "yeah".


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## hong (Mar 5, 2007)

Nail said:
			
		

> Specific Question: What your most common "recharge routine"?  How often, what's the melee situation, which maneuvers that - once spent - do you immediately recharge for, etc.



 Not sure that I have a definite recharge routine, really. I'll usually have DNB and GIS readied, as well as 2-3 other strikes that vary depending on the situation. When the first 2 are gone, I'll start looking for an opportunity to recharge; if the fight looks like it's about to end, I generally won't bother.


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## Hypersmurf (Mar 5, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> We found a huge force-vat containing a hideous soup of body parts and stuff. I mean, the dishes in _Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom_ had nothing on this baby.




How about the one in _Conan the Barbarian_?

"So, this is Paradise..."

-Hyp.


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## hong (Mar 5, 2007)

Worse than that, even. I mean, this monster was Huge! That's about the size of a beer glass.


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## hong (Mar 5, 2007)

And what the heck, here's the character backstory. 

*Padma Illindra [redux]*


_“Oh no, not again”_

A willowy, wandering swordswoman from Gandharva in Faerun’s east, Padma Illindra has popped up repeatedly in the selectors’ lists over the last 7 years despite a tendency to go missing in action at critical moments. A stylish fighter with a flashing blade and a remarkable ability to reinvent herself, she gives the impression of always being on the threshold of greatness without quite breaking through. Some have compared her to Damien Martyn; but others reject such comparisons, pointing out firstly that every character is unique, and secondly that Martyn, as far as can be told, doesn’t have breasts.

In her first outing at the top level, in company with a motley group of adventurers she helped destroy a cult of elemental evil in Cormyr. Consistent failure to smite, however, saw her dropped for the latter half of the campaign. She then toured the Silver Marches and Anauroch, where despite playing second fiddle to the kobold Deekin she put an end to the machinations of the lich Heurodis. In the process she fell through a portal to the plane of shadows but managed to escape, emerging in the city of Waterdeep. There, she was a key player in the campaign against the archdevil Mephistopheles; her achievements in this time memorably included breaking the 150 (points of damage on one hit) barrier, and an unbeaten stand of 86 (kills in one fight) with Valen Shadowbreath at the gates of Lith My’athar. Chafing at arbitrary restrictions placed on her, however (chiefly the requirement to tell her party members every 10 minutes to for gods sake stop running halfway across the map), she moved to Neverwinter where conflict with a resurgent King of Shadows was brewing. She led her side to a series victory, but again at the moment of triumph she was sucked through a planar gate, this time to the world of Oerth.

Now located in the Free City of Greyhawk, Illindra’s first foreign transfer has placed a number of new challenges in her path as she seeks to restart her career. For starters, all her Toril-specific abilities, including 1) her trackless step; 2) her +2 bonus to saving throws against spells and spell-like effects with the words “rock”, “stone”, or “wood” in the name of the effect, shugenja spells of the earth element, and wu jen spells connected to earth or wood; 3) her +2 racial bonus to Wilderness Lore and +4 racial bonus to Hide skill checks when in woods or forest; and 4) her ability to speak with animals once per day, no longer function. The last is particularly aggravating, and stories have surfaced in the media that she continues to try to speak with animals, most recently just before the shock one-day loss to Bangladesh. Illindra herself firmly rejects such allegations, claiming merely to have been drunk at the time. In addition, all her languages (with the exception of “Common” and Spirit Tongue, which is called “Old Suloise” in Oerth or something equally silly) have been rendered useless. Thankfully, in this line of work one tends to do most of one’s talking with a sword or a fireball, something at which Illindra can claim much experience.

— Smiteinfo staff, 595 CY


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## jasin (Mar 5, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> Of course, I didn't really want to save each round against a disintegrate effect, so I figured this was as good a time as any to unleash the big smite. The blade of my sword crackles with an eldritch blue glow as I activate true strike, and I wind up and Power Attack for max, dealing 196 points and exploding the horrible flesh-thing into a shower of Kyuss worms and gore.



I must say I am impressed. How do you get 196? True strike + Power Attack + diamond nightmare blade + insightful strike? (I just noticed that both a maneuver and a swordsage special ability are called exactly the same... I'm thinking about the swordsage special.) Or is there something else?


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## hong (Mar 5, 2007)

jasin said:
			
		

> I must say I am impressed.




Coming from the person who built Nialle and Lianne, that's high praise! The 196 was before gaining a warblade level. Insightful strike (the swordsage ability) helps, yes. 

bastard sword 2-handed + Str 22 + Wis 22 + sword +5 + Blade Meditation (Diamond Mind) = +21 damage
-12/+24 Power Attack = +45
diamond nightmare blade x4 = +180

Add true strike and Acrobatic Strike to get +39 attack, 4d10+180 damage. Even without true strike that's still +19 attack, which is enough for low-AC melee brutes.


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## glass (Mar 5, 2007)

Slaved said:
			
		

> Yes I do actually. Have you gone through any long or drawn out battles where you have run out of maneuvers yet? I really want a round by round account of that battle with the 800+ hit point and >50AC creature!



As someone who is DMing* AoW for a group which includes a Swordsage, I would also very much like to read that when the time comes.


glass.

(* Although my party is only in the second adventure and currently on hiatus anyway, os there's no rush).


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## green slime (Mar 5, 2007)

I agree with mr glass.


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## jasin (Mar 5, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> Coming from the person who built Nialle and Lianne, that's high praise!



You remeber their names! 

But honestly, the latest Padma seems more twinked out to me.

Lianne could do +9d6+99 iaijutsu damage, but that was once per fight. Padma has diamond nightmare blade for ~200, greater insightful strike for another ~100, and a whole bunch of other lesser strikes... or she can just go ethereal for a round and come out with DNB ready again.

Granted, my girls were better in straight up melee with their Cha-boosted attack bonuses...



> The 196 was before gaining a warblade level. Insightful strike (the swordsage ability) helps, yes.



BTW, how come you took punishing stance? No higher level Iron Heart stances you found interesting?

BTW2, I made a warblade for Savage Tide (Keca's been all sorts of busy, so AoW has been on hold for the last three weeks). He started as pure Iron Heart, with the inevitable exception of moment of perfect mind, but now I'm trying to decide on the direction I'll be taking him.

White Raven can make a great pirate captain, but there's another player doing the flamboyant swashbuckler thing, and I'm already playing the diplomat in AoW, so this time I went with a typical D&D fighter personality, complete with Cha 8. Not that that makes WR maneuvers any less effective, but it just doesn't fit very well.

Tiger Claw only has a couple of maneuvers I like, but those I really like, and there's an organization in the city called the Church of Whirling Fury which is a bunch of evil-hating barbarians and clerics, so TC could create an interesting angle there.

And then there's Diamond Mind, which is overall one of my favorites (along with IH), but I'm not sure if I want to play that sort of monkishness in a pirate game. OTOH, the church of Wee Jas is strong in the city, and I've taken a liking for them already, so I might end up as the only law-leaning member of the party...

OK, I'm done with the hijack. We can get back to talking about Padma now.


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## hong (Mar 6, 2007)

jasin said:
			
		

> You remeber their names!




Well, it took a bit of work, but I got there in the end. 



> But honestly, the latest Padma seems more twinked out to me.
> 
> Lianne could do +9d6+99 iaijutsu damage, but that was once per fight. Padma has diamond nightmare blade for ~200, greater insightful strike for another ~100, and a whole bunch of other lesser strikes... or she can just go ethereal for a round and come out with DNB ready again.
> 
> Granted, my girls were better in straight up melee with their Cha-boosted attack bonuses...




Heh. I was actually thinking that, more by accident than design, I've managed to create a decent iaijutsu duelist. +18 init, 200 damage is enough to one-shot 5 of 6 PCs in the party, including herself. 

(goes searching for Li's statblock...)

Padma against Lianne would probably still go Lianne's way, though. 10 levels of iaijutsu master gets you Strike With No Thought, which means you always go first (and, incidentally, makes you immune to flat-footedness). So Lianne makes 2 attacks using One Strike Two Cuts, which is 2x wpn damage +18d6+198... I'm not 100% sure if you get Iai Focus dice with both attacks, but that's my guess.

At this point Padma is most likely dead, but if not we roll init, which Lianne probably wins with +21 against +18. So she can finish the job with another 2 hits from 1S2C, or just a full attack. If Padma manages to get a shot in, her best bet is to go invisible with cloak of deception, since even with true strike, AC 51 is not trivial to hit if you want to Power Attack as well. DNB also requires a Concentration check with DC = AC, and that's not a good bet either.

Mind you, Lianne is a purposely twinked build and first-strike-kill is what she's designed for, so it shouldn't be surprising that she comes out ahead. It would be rather embarrassing (for both of us) if it was otherwise. 



> BTW, how come you took punishing stance? No higher level Iron Heart stances you found interesting?




It actually says that a 1st level warblade can only take a 1st level stance. It's the same for crusaders and swordsages. Yeah, a bit weird, but I'm not that fussed. It's really Iron Heart Surge + Iron Heart Focus + uncanny dodge that I'm after.



> BTW2, I made a warblade for Savage Tide (Keca's been all sorts of busy, so AoW has been on hold for the last three weeks). He started as pure Iron Heart, with the inevitable exception of moment of perfect mind, but now I'm trying to decide on the direction I'll be taking him.
> 
> White Raven can make a great pirate captain, but there's another player doing the flamboyant swashbuckler thing, and I'm already playing the diplomat in AoW, so this time I went with a typical D&D fighter personality, complete with Cha 8. Not that that makes WR maneuvers any less effective, but it just doesn't fit very well.
> 
> ...




Have you seen Enter the Dragon (the Bruce Lee movie)? The main villain in that has his own island, a bit like a pirate warlord. He's icy-cool most of the time, but explodes into a murderous fury when he gets angry. You could play a Diamond Mind guy like that: your general air of calmness just puts your episodes of violence into sharp relief.


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## jasin (Mar 6, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> Heh. I was actually thinking that, more by accident than design, I've managed to create a decent iaijutsu duelist. +18 init, 200 damage is enough to one-shot 5 of 6 PCs in the party, including herself.



Yes! That's one of the things I liked about the XPsiHB, actually, how the bonus damage and touch attack psionic feats (Psionic Weapon and... something with a fancier name) let you create a swordsman who uses concentration to strike deadly blows (which is a pretty good description of an iaijutsu duelist, at least a fictional OA one).

And diamond mind is like that, only better. And swordsages even get an initiative bonus!



> Mind you, Lianne is a purposely twinked build and first-strike-kill is what she's designed for, so it shouldn't be surprising that she comes out ahead. It would be rather embarrassing (for both of us) if it was otherwise.



OK, yes, when both sides have the 200 hp in one hit thing down, initiative is the next most important number, an an iaijutsu master is hard to beat there.

But you're sure as hell trying! How'd you get +18 init? +6 Dex, +4 Imporoved Initiative, +4 quick to act... what am I missing?

Edit: OK, found the +4 from the spirit-possessed sword.



> Have you seen Enter the Dragon (the Bruce Lee movie)? The main villain in that has his own island, a bit like a pirate warlord. He's icy-cool most of the time, but explodes into a murderous fury when he gets angry. You could play a Diamond Mind guy like that: your general air of calmness just puts your episodes of violence into sharp relief.



That could work, since I've been trying to play my Iron Heart guy like that.


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## jasin (Mar 6, 2007)

Not directly related to Padma, but a question that might be interesting to anyone watching this thread: why is ghost blade (6th, strike, attack opponent's flat-footed AC) so high in level, especially compared to emerald razor (2nd, strike, attack opponent's touch AC) and cloak of deception (2nd, boost, become invisible)?

I mean, I can see situations where ghost blade would be better: high-Dex, low-armour opponents who can see invisible or have uncanny dodge or Blind-Fight. But is that going to come up often enough to justify choosing GB over other 6th-level maneuvers?


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## hong (Mar 6, 2007)

jasin said:
			
		

> Not directly related to Padma, but a question that might be interesting to anyone watching this thread: why is ghost blade (6th, strike, attack opponent's flat-footed AC) so high in level, especially compared to emerald razor (2nd, strike, attack opponent's touch AC) and cloak of deception (2nd, boost, become invisible)?
> 
> I mean, I can see situations where ghost blade would be better: high-Dex, low-armour opponents who can see invisible or have uncanny dodge or Blind-Fight. But is that going to come up often enough to justify choosing GB over other 6th-level maneuvers?



 Well, ghost blade brings sneak attack/sudden strike into play... but then so does cloak of deception. And in fact, uncanny dodge would also protect against ghost blade, since you treat the target as flat-footed. Yeah, the levels look a bit messed up.


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## hong (Mar 6, 2007)

jasin said:
			
		

> Yes! That's one of the things I liked about the XPsiHB, actually, how the bonus damage and touch attack psionic feats (Psionic Weapon and... something with a fancier name) let you create a swordsman who uses concentration to strike deadly blows (which is a pretty good description of an iaijutsu duelist, at least a fictional OA one).
> 
> And diamond mind is like that, only better. And swordsages even get an initiative bonus!




The quote from Hero is appropriate: "how swift thy sword".

... or maybe, depending on the campaign: "in kung fu, speed is everything". Ie, the one from Kung Fu Hustle. 



> OK, yes, when both sides have the 200 hp in one hit thing down, initiative is the next most important number, an an iaijutsu master is hard to beat there.




I just looked up OA, actually, and it's a bit ambiguous whether you get the Iaijutsu Focus damage with both attacks from 1S2C. The skill description says "if you attack a flat-footed opponent immediately after drawing a melee weapon"; is the second attack considered to happen immediately after drawing the weapon?

But then the sidebar on "Iaijutsu strikes in normal combat" (p.82) just says "when you are attacking a flat-footed opponent and you draw your weapon in the same round you strike", so maybe I'm splitting hairs.

What would happen if it was a formal duel as opposed to normal combat?



> But you're sure as hell trying! How'd you get +18 init? +6 Dex, +4 Imporoved Initiative, +4 quick to act... what am I missing?
> 
> Edit: OK, found the +4 from the spirit-possessed sword.




The Imp Init is mostly for pose value. Or maybe not... I still get all twitchy over the episode of the halfling accountant in Geoff's last game.


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## jasin (Mar 6, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> I just looked up OA, actually, and it's a bit ambiguous whether you get the Iaijutsu Focus damage with both attacks from 1S2C. The skill description says "if you attack a flat-footed opponent immediately after drawing a melee weapon"; is the second attack considered to happen immediately after drawing the weapon?



When I played my iaijutsu master, we ruled that you only got iaijutsu damage on the first attack. But then, those were more innocent times, when a fighter dealing 50+ damage in a single hit not once but twice before the other guy even got to act, was deemed quite impressive and/or suspicious. 



> The Imp Init is mostly for pose value.



Well, when you've got an attack that can kill many enemies outright, going before they get to do something similar to you ends up being more than pose, I think.



> Or maybe not... I still get all twitchy over the episode of the halfling accountant in Geoff's last game.



This sounds familiar, but I can't quite place it. Have I heard about this already? Was sadism or masochism involved somehow?


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## hong (Mar 6, 2007)

jasin said:
			
		

> When I played my iaijutsu master, we ruled that you only got iaijutsu damage on the first attack. But then, those were more innocent times, when a fighter dealing 50+ damage in a single hit not once but twice before the other guy even got to act, was deemed quite impressive and/or suspicious.




Hm. Well, if 1S2C only allows Iai Focus dice on the 1st attack, that's still 2x wpn damage +9d6+99, which is ~165 + 2 Con, or 185 against a 20th level character. That's slightly less than an even chance of killing Padma outright in the surprise round, if both attacks hit. Not quite as overwhelming as before, but I'd still lay good odds on Lianne.

Basically, you don't want to start a fight within melee range of an iaijutsu master, but I think we knew that already. 


Edit: Lianne is here for those who want to check out Jasin's twink-fu.




> Well, when you've got an attack that can kill many enemies outright, going before they get to do something similar to you ends up being more than pose, I think.




It's more that nothing we've fought has had an init bonus close to +14, let alone +18. But what the heck, it's cool being able to roleplay waiting for everyone else to catch up. 



> This sounds familiar, but I can't quite place it. Have I heard about this already? Was sadism or masochism involved somehow?




Yep. Geoff gave her the sadism spell from BoVD, but misread it so that it gave a bonus to damage as well as attacks.

Ugly. Very ugly.


----------



## hong (Mar 31, 2007)

So, we fought Dragotha today.

Kung fu dragon.

More later.


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## Nifft (Mar 31, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> Kung fu dragon.




I feel the need for details.

Thanks, -- N


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## kibbitz (Mar 31, 2007)

Wow. Even without 3.5E (I only own corebooks for 3.0), between you and jasin (and that thread with Lianne), I'm almost ready to go out tomorrow morning and place an order for Bo9S. Will wait eagerly for your experience with Dragotha.


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## Faerl'Elghinn (Mar 31, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> Overall, is the swordsage broken? Going from my (limited) experience, I'd say not, although it does have the opportunity to grab the spotlight now and then. Is it powerful? Your answer to that will probably match your answer to the question of whether the monk is powerful, since there's so many similarities between the two classes. I'll note that in this particular session though, the other players ended up labelling the character as a tertiary combatant, not even a secondary combatant. Maybe I'll swop her out for a warblade next session.




I don't think the Swordsage is anywhere near broken (mostly for the same reasons you cite), although I certainly find the class intriguing/viable.  IME, the Warblade is nigh on the most powerful 20-level class ever printed in official material, but I wouldn't really even consider that class worthy of the term "broken" (close, maybe, with the right build, but not uncheckable).  Even if it were, we all own stock in Nerf.

Personally, I really like the gestalt implications of the Swordsage.  I'm running a campaign where an ancient vampire is "recruiting" gestalt characters for their exceptional abilities.  I can't wait to send the Githzerai vampire Swashbuckler/Swordsages (gestalt) after the party...  yummy.


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## Faerl'Elghinn (Mar 31, 2007)

kibbitz said:
			
		

> Wow. Even without 3.5E (I only own corebooks for 3.0), between you and jasin (and that thread with Lianne), I'm almost ready to go out tomorrow morning and place an order for Bo9S. Will wait eagerly for your experience with Dragotha.



Do it.  The book is freaking awesome.


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## Satori (Mar 31, 2007)

I just wanted to pop in and express my gratitude for the very detailed explanation of a Swordsage in play.  I've been dying to play one, but haven't found a game yet that allows ToB.  

Rather than simply say, "They suck" or "They rock", you've given extremely detailed descriptions of how you've been successful and how you've failed.

Thanks!


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## Felon (Mar 31, 2007)

Slaved said:
			
		

> Since his point is that with the class you are limited to melee then saying you could have been something else does not really seem to hold any weight.



The arguement you're crticizing holds weight quite well. If you play a fighter, you know you're not going to be a spellcaster, so any suggestion that you should be compensated with a d12 hit die upgrade for lack of spellcasting is unreasonable. Likewise, the rationale that the warblade's lack of ranged attacks and maximized hit die somehow correlate and cancel out is a little light in the logic department. A warblade is all about melee, and it should be balanced against characters that are also all about melee, and then only in purely melee situations. 



> It is limited to melee almost exclusively and it only goes up to medium armor. Plus it has some multiple attribute dependency issues.



All-told, medium armor might cost a whole point or two of AC over heavy armor. If that. And it allows for better Tumble checks, something a WB is wont to do anyway.

The warblade is not dependent on multiple ability scores in the true sense of the word "dependency". He reaps benefits for having a high Int, but does not need it to perform in the sense that a monk needs a high Wis. He "needs" it in the sense that a warmage needs it, because he enjoys some perk that he can actually perform handsomely without.


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## Fedifensor (Apr 1, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> Likewise, the rationale that the warblade's lack of ranged attacks and maximized hit die somehow correlate and cancel out is a little light in the logic department. A warblade is all about melee, and it should be balanced against characters that are also all about melee, and then only in purely melee situations.



With no proficiency with ranged weapons, there are several situations where a warblade has no option other than standing around (or taking the -4 nonproficiency).  With a good strength bow, a fighter can at least do _something_ against a ranged attacker.  Unless the warblade can get ahold of magic that gives him the ability to get into melee, he's in trouble.




> All-told, medium armor might cost a whole point or two of AC over heavy armor. If that. And it allows for better Tumble checks, something a WB is wont to do anyway.



Best medium armor is a breastplate for +5 AC, while the best heavy armor is full plate for +8 AC.  Looks like a 3 point difference to me.




> The warblade is not dependent on multiple ability scores in the true sense of the word "dependency". He reaps benefits for having a high Int, but does not need it to perform in the sense that a monk needs a high Wis. He "needs" it in the sense that a warmage needs it, because he enjoys some perk that he can actually perform handsomely without.



That is true. However, in order to make up for the AC loss from not wearing armor, the warblade's Dex needs to be higher.  So you're looking at Str, Dex, and Con, with Int as a nice bonus.


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## jasin (Apr 1, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> All-told, medium armor might cost a whole point or two of AC over heavy armor. If that. And it allows for better Tumble checks, something a WB is wont to do anyway.



You cannot tumble in medium armour.


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## boolean (Apr 1, 2007)

jasin said:
			
		

> You cannot tumble in medium armour.




Unless you're a dwarf.


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## hong (Apr 1, 2007)

Okay, Dragotha.

We didn't fight the mother of all worms immediately, of course. We cleared out the Tabernacle first, killing a dragon watchdog and several hapless avolakia flunkies. It's a funny state of affairs when you can call spellcasters with finger of death "hapless flunkies", but I'm not complaining.

The avolakias (avolakii? avolakiae?) were no match for either diamond nightmare blade, or the dwarf barbarian with the holy greatsword. I got embarrassed enough by regularly one-shotting them with 200+ points with DNB that I declared I was no longer using this maneuver in the first round.

Mind you, I'm something of a flat-track bully compared to the dwarf. DNB works well against low-to-middling AC opponents, against whom I can Power Attack for everything. If the AC is high, I have to resort to greater insightful strike, whose damage output is half that of DNB. Both of these are also usable only 1/encounter, barring refreshes. The dwarf when raging is able to deal 200+ points every round with a full attack even against tough opposition, and closer to 300 if Power Attacking against evil undead.

It's perhaps an indication of relative strengths. The barb (or any other conventional tank) is strongest with a full attack; if forced to move around, he's much less dangerous. By contrast, a swordsage doesn't put out that much more damage if given the opportunity to make a full attack; for me at least, I'm actually more dangerous if I use a strike. This has its good and bad points. Good -- I have the flexibility to move around the battlefield without worrying that I'm wasting attacks; bad -- I can't amp up the damage if needed.

Another downside of full attacks is that you're left standing next to the bad guy, and if they're as nasty as you, that could be bad. As stated before the dwarf has come close to being killed several times, and he has ~70% more hit points than me (and even more when raging). Still, there's no doubt that he's the main offensive weapon in this group, with a couple of healers backing him up if required.

Still, I managed to steal a number of kills from under the dwarf's beard: he'd be next to a monster and ready to make a full attack next round, and I'd run in and loose off a strike, killing it with one blow. Most amusing.

Oh yeah, Dragotha.

The generally slimy, putrescent, unclean feel of the whole dungeon had us in mind that we had entered a gigantic digestive passage, leading to the question of whether there were intestinal villi lining the walls. And indeed there were; or at least lots of Kyuss worms on the walls, floors and doors, trying to eat anything that touched them. They didn't actually slow us down much, since most of us had flight by this time, and those who didn't could be carried. I SHOULD have made a comment at some point about the Diet of Worms, but I was distracted at the time.

Anyway, before we got to Dragotha, we had to fight his watchdog: a gargantuan wormdrake, guarding a circular passage extending upwards and downwards. It also proved to be not that much of a challenge. The dwarf knocked off half its hit points, and 5-shadow creeping whatsit took care of the rest. It had regen /silver though, so the dwarf got the honour of finishing it off due to having a silver weapon. Improved evasion meant I took no damage at all during this fight, underlining the survivability of the swordsage class (although it helps if someone else is being the damage sponge).

There's also something cool, when the DM says "make a Fort save!", being able to reply "no!" and tap mind over body. There were also to jokes about using Cartesian dualism to separate your mind from your body, especially when the Fort save was to avoid worms burrowing into your brain.

Dragotha, yes, yes.

Twice in the session I used diamond defense, rolled a 2, and escaped by the skin of my teeth. One of these times was after losing 4 negative levels, which brought up the question of how initiator levels and readied maneuvers are affected by energy drain. We resolved it as per caster levels, so I was effectively down -8 from a typical use of diamond defense (-4 penalty to the saving throw, and another -4 due to reduced IL). Interesting negative synergy there.

So, anyway, we finally got to Dragotha.

Well, we didn't get to Dragotha RIGHT AWAY. First we had a final meeting with Bucknard Balakarde's ghost first, who gave us the complete rundown on the dragon's stats. Complete enough for most purposes anyway: immune to everything, SR 35, AC 58, 17th caster level, 800+ hit points, etc, etc. The most important bit of information we got was the paralyzing gaze, so we went in buffed with freedom of action and blindsight along with haste, heroism, heroes' feast, prayer and other stuff. We were, like, glowing in the dark by the time we met the bad guy.

The FIRST thing that Dragotha did was taunt us about Lashonna being a servant of Evil. To which we're like, "duh, really!" The SECOND thing that he did was command us to bow down or flee. To which we're like, "no, we're staying!" I guess our massacring his flunkies must have done something to his self-confidence.

Time to roll initiative. Let's just say that this was NOT a good time for me to roll a 1.

The wizard goes first, and casts time stop, followed by gating in a solar. (Hey, if you're fighting something this big, you might as well have fun.) Unfortunately, he forgot about the paralyzing aura, so the solar freezes up as soon as the time stop runs out. Thankfully the solar has wish 1/day, which he immediately uses to cast freedom of movement.

Dragotha goes next and blasts everyone with a (quickened, clinging) negative energy breath. It's only 120 points, following by another 60 next round... piece of cake. He follows up with horrid wilting, which is puny by comparison.

I go next. I leap forward, my sword sliding out of its sheath with the aid of a shiny, newly-acquired crystal of return (draw blade as free action), and launch into greater insightful strike. The sword comes down in a glittering arc... to be met by Dragotha's fool's strike counter, from Setting Sun.

FECKIN' KUNG FU DRAGON!

The sound you hear is my butt puckering up at the prospect of an opposed attack roll against a gargantuan dracolich. Amazingly Draggie rolls crap, and I roll great, so I do NOT skewer myself, instead dealing 108 points to him.

Bucknard Balakarde's soul fragments and the bonuses bestowed were the key to winning the fight. +20 insight bonus to attacks for one person, transferable as an immediate action; +2 caster level for one person, transferable as an immediate action; +10 on all saves; evasion; immune to paralysis; immune to fear; and other stuff. I had the +20 attack at the start, which is what allowed me to hit Dragotha with GIS, and win the opposed roll against fool's strike. I handed it off to the barb shortly afterwards. He didn't actually need it to hit Draggie, but it allowed him to Power Attack effectively. Too effectively, in fact; Drag pulls out another Setting Sun counter, this time scorpion parry. So instead of smacking into Drag, the dwarf's greatsword is deflected in its path, continuing on its merry way... straight into me.

FECKIN' KUNG FU DRAGON!

Still, even with only 4 out of 6 attacks hitting, that was enough to make the dwarf the primary target for Draggie's attentions, who hits him right back for even more damage. But he's used to that. He also has a cleric and druid behind him, both with mass heal.

Somewhere in there I also used rabid bear strike and the dwarf hit Draggie a few times more, for another couple hundred points. And so did the cleric and druid, with their mass heals. It's all a bit hazy.

At this point Draggie must have got annoyed at the casters targeting him for a combined 200 points each round, as well as healing up the dwarf. So he puts them into a forcecage... which the wiz blows up with disintegrate. And unfortunately for Drag, he's used his action to cast a spell so he can't attack the dwarf, who is still next to him. So he uses sudden leap, springing into the air and landing behind us all in a thunderous fury!

However, anything a pansy kung fu dragon can do, I can do better. I use sudden leap as well, chasing hard on Draggie's tail, and in midair activate emerald razor, coming down on him for 50 points of damage. Yeah, it's 3 rounds in and already I'm scraping the bottom of the barrel. Luckily so is Dragotha, as the dwarf, pissed that his target ran away and left him behind, comes over and whacks him twice more for 120 points. That's enough to destroy the vaunted dracolich.

We got a shedload of treasure (about 1.1 million gp total!). Pity we can't spend it to our liking, since the adventure path is on a strict timetable and the End Of The World is fast approaching. Next session will be the start of the last module, where we'll be fighting Kyuss and his wailing dire ax. It's all fun and games round here.


----------



## Someone (Apr 1, 2007)

When reading that I couldn't help but imagine underage characters yelling in japanese while wielding stupidly oversized weapons. 

Not meant as a criticism, mind you.


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## kibbitz (Apr 1, 2007)

Didn't sound like Dragotha amounted to much.   Also have minor difficulties imagining a gargantuan monster performing kungfu-ish maneuvers on human-sized characters...


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## Nifft (Apr 1, 2007)

Someone said:
			
		

> When reading that I couldn't help but imagine underage characters yelling in japanese while wielding stupidly oversized weapons.




I would actually like to see transliterations of the "original Japanese" for the various maneuvers, so NPCs could yell them before getting toasted.

Cheers, -- N

PS: Hong, nice to know that 3 rounds is deep into combat with a Swordsage. That makes a lot of sense when I look at high-level spellcasters and their expected number of combat actions vs. number of combats per day.


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## hong (Apr 1, 2007)

Well, Draggie is undead which makes a bunch of strikes useless, like 5-shadow whatsit and others requiring a Fort save. His high AC also rules out diamond nightmare blade (even with the the +20 attack bonus, there's still the issue of the Concentration check). In combat with living creatures (like the group of avolakia priests the previous session) I might go 5-6 rounds before running out.


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## blargney the second (Apr 1, 2007)

What level were you going into that fight?
-blarg


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## kibbitz (Apr 1, 2007)

Nifft said:
			
		

> I would actually like to see transliterations of the "original Japanese" for the various maneuvers, so NPCs could yell them before getting toasted.
> 
> Cheers, -- N




If by transliterations, you mean equivalent JP names for the maneuvers/etc, a fair amount would probably sound similar to their English counterparts   Diamond Nightmare Blade would be Dai-mon-do Naitomea Buredo or something along those lines, though Dance of the Spiders could be something like Kumo no Mai. Not sure how many of those would actually transliterate well, but then again, I'm hardly an expert in Japanese myself.


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## NilesB (Apr 1, 2007)

Faerl'Elghinn said:
			
		

> IME, the Warblade is nigh on the most powerful 20-level class ever printed in official material, but I wouldn't really even consider that class worthy of the term "broken" (close, maybe, with the right build, but not uncheckable).  Even if it were, we all own stock in Nerf.



Experience or opinion? Actual play reports I've seen suggest that the Warblade is significantly less powerful than the Crusader and slightly less powerful than the Swordsage.

And none of them match the crazy brokenness of the Archivist.


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## Nifft (Apr 1, 2007)

kibbitz said:
			
		

> Dai-mon-do Naitomea Buredo or something along those lines, though Dance of the Spiders could be something like Kumo no Mai




That's exactly what I was thinking. It would make about as much sense as the pseudo-Latin used in Harry Potter, but sense is hardly the point -- it's more of a style thing.

However, it's not exactly fair to pick on just Japanese... how about if each culture / tradition / player were responsible for translating their maneuvers into some foreign language?

Dwarf Warden: "Gebirgsfinanzanzeige-Schlag!"

Elf Duelist: "Tempo sta fermo!"

Halfling Dervish: "!جحيم الانفجار" (okay I can't actually read that either)

Cheers, -- N


PS: I forgot to mention the point of this: so you'd have a reason to yell your maneuver name out loud, but the Martial Lore skill would actually remain useful. "Your tradition would call what he's about to do an 'inferno strike', rather than 'جحيم الانفجار'."


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## hong (Apr 2, 2007)

blargney the second said:
			
		

> What level were you going into that fight?
> -blarg



 19th. I think we're on the low side for this mod, but the minmaxing expertise of some members of the group makes up for that.


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## kibbitz (Apr 2, 2007)

Nifft said:
			
		

> That's exactly what I was thinking. It would make about as much sense as the pseudo-Latin used in Harry Potter, but sense is hardly the point -- it's more of a style thing.
> 
> However, it's not exactly fair to pick on just Japanese... how about if each culture / tradition / player were responsible for translating their maneuvers into some foreign language?
> 
> ...




Yea, well, that's why I just stick to JP audio when watching anime and Chinese for wuxia flicks Watching them declaring their maneuver LOUDLY during execution already stretches it. Hearing them do it in some other language, well, I suppose I just can't get used to it 

I suppose that Martial Lore allows for style/maneuver identification just as Spellcraft allows for identification of spells being cast. Besides aesthetics though (however questionable they may be), I'm not sure why you'd ever need to vocalize your maneuver. Unless, of course, that you just want to


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## Nifft (Apr 2, 2007)

kibbitz said:
			
		

> Unless, of course, that you just want to




Indeed. It makes very little sense; it's a style thing. 

Cheers, -- N


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## hong (Apr 2, 2007)

Someone said:
			
		

> When reading that I couldn't help but imagine underage characters yelling in japanese while wielding stupidly oversized weapons.
> 
> Not meant as a criticism, mind you.



 I was actually thinking more of Dynasty Warriors....


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## Egres (Apr 2, 2007)

Nifft said:
			
		

> Elf Duelist: "Tempo sta fermo!"



In Italian that sounds like "Time, stop!" (in the same manner you would say to an annoying kid named "Time" to stop playing around you).


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## EyeontheMountain (Apr 2, 2007)

Fedifensor said:
			
		

> Best medium armor is a breastplate for +5 AC, while the best heavy armor is full plate for +8 AC.  Looks like a 3 point difference to me.




Not when you figure in dex, then it is one point.


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## jasin (Apr 2, 2007)

When you figure in Dex, you have less stat points and/or less money to spend elsewhere.


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## Krafen (Apr 2, 2007)

kibbitz said:
			
		

> If by transliterations, you mean equivalent JP names for the maneuvers/etc, a fair amount would probably sound similar to their English counterparts   Diamond Nightmare Blade would be Dai-mon-do Naitomea Buredo or something along those lines, though Dance of the Spiders could be something like Kumo no Mai. Not sure how many of those would actually transliterate well, but then again, I'm hardly an expert in Japanese myself.




Well, I would probably translate Diamond Nightmare Blade as "daiyamondo no akumaken".
For those who are interested, that is pronounced dah ee yah mohn doe no ah koo mah kehn.

If someone wanted to actually do the translations, the thing to keep in mind is the English names were chosen for style more than meaning. Simply finding the equivalent word in another language is insufficient. You need to look at the connotations and emotional connections of the words used and find those in the other language. Also, particularly if intended for English speakers to say and hear, it is important that is sounds good and flows well.


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## kibbitz (Apr 2, 2007)

Krafen said:
			
		

> Well, I would probably translate Diamond Nightmare Blade as "daiyamondo no akumaken".
> For those who are interested, that is pronounced dah ee yah mohn doe no ah koo mah kehn.
> 
> If someone wanted to actually do the translations, the thing to keep in mind is the English names were chosen for style more than meaning. Simply finding the equivalent word in another language is insufficient. You need to look at the connotations and emotional connections of the words used and find those in the other language. Also, particularly if intended for English speakers to say and hear, it is important that is sounds good and flows well.




No difference for Japanese, actually. A maneuver should sound cool and look awesome (effectiveness is always debatable. ) Much of naming depends purely on your sense of aesthetics and that of your audience. I used Kumo no Mai because I felt it sounded better. For the same reason, I used Diamond Nightmare Blade (and isn't Diamond no Akumuken too literal itself?)


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## Nail (Apr 2, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> ..... Next session will be the start of the last module, where we'll be fighting Kyuss and his wailing dire ax. It's all fun and games round here.



Excellent!  Thanks, hong.  This swordsage breakdown is increasingly helpful!


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## Nifft (Apr 3, 2007)

Egres said:
			
		

> In Italian that sounds like "Time, stop!" (in the same manner you would say to an annoying kid named "Time" to stop playing around you).




I like it as an imperative. 

Thanks, -- N


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## hong (Apr 3, 2007)

Nail said:
			
		

> Excellent!  Thanks, hong.  This swordsage breakdown is increasingly helpful!



 One thing that's interesting is the relative power levels of the PCs. Eg everyone usually assumes that clerics and druids are the most powerful classes. We have both of these, but they play more of a supporting role. The wiz is more prominent, but he's still nowhere near the biggest hitter in the fights.

It's really down to the characteristics of the players. The dwarf is played by the best powergamer in the group, and you can usually bet that whatever he plays, it's going to be strong. The cleric and druid players are basically casual gamers who come along to hang out with friends, and aren't out to twink builds or hog the spotlight. The wiz player is more of a tactical/mastermind type; while he can powergame, it's not really his thing. As long as the character survives the encounters, he's happy; and usually he prefers to buff/support the tank than be the main damage-dealer himself.


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## hong (Apr 3, 2007)

Satori said:
			
		

> I just wanted to pop in and express my gratitude for the very detailed explanation of a Swordsage in play.  I've been dying to play one, but haven't found a game yet that allows ToB.
> 
> Rather than simply say, "They suck" or "They rock", you've given extremely detailed descriptions of how you've been successful and how you've failed.
> 
> Thanks!



 It's all part of my cunning plan to TELL YOU ABOUT MY CHARACTER.

HAW HAW!


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## blargney the second (Apr 3, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> It's all part of my cunning plan to TELL YOU ABOUT MY CHARACTER.
> 
> HAW HAW!



Dammit, I fell for it!


----------



## jasin (Apr 3, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> One thing that's interesting is the relative power levels of the PCs. Eg everyone usually assumes that clerics and druids are the most powerful classes. We have both of these, but they play more of a supporting role. The wiz is more prominent, but he's still nowhere near the biggest hitter in the fights.
> 
> It's really down to the characteristics of the players.



That has been my experience as well. I'd say that it's true that clerics and druids have the potential to be (among the) most powerful, but it's how you use the potential that counts. And that doesn't just mean character design twinkery; tactics in play are at least just as important.

I've been in a game with a single-class ranger with just a couple of non-PHB feats and a psion straight off the WotC minmaxing boards (full plated psion/illithid slayer polymorphing into a hydra with a feat to gain a Su ability), and it was the ranger that was considered the powerhouse of the group, while the psion somehow consistently managed to enter his uber combat mode exactly the round before the fight is over.



> The wiz player is more of a tactical/mastermind type; while he can powergame, it's not really his thing.



Who is that?


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## Piratecat (Apr 3, 2007)

Reading this is a delight.  I've bought the book.

I just intend to use it for bad guys.


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## Nifft (Apr 3, 2007)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Reading this is a delight.  I've bought the book.
> 
> I just intend to use it for bad guys.




I highly recommend the Swordsage or Warblade for bad guys. The Crusader is excellent, but a lot of work in play... maybe it needs a specialized electronic tool to manage?

Since you are smart and on top of stuff, you might also consider Hong's spiffy ToB-inspired bad guy classes. I'm sure he'll provide a link with very little provocation. 

Cheers, -- N


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## Piratecat (Apr 3, 2007)

Goodness, that would be useful.


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## blargney the second (Apr 3, 2007)

Nifft said:
			
		

> I highly recommend the Swordsage or Warblade for bad guys. The Crusader is excellent, but a lot of work in play... maybe it needs a specialized electronic tool to manage?



That matches my experience.  The swordsage & warblade mostly have abilities that you can precalculate and not have to worry about while running them.  The crusader's refresh mechanism and delayed damage pool require more attention.


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## GoodKingJayIII (Apr 3, 2007)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Reading this is a delight.  I've bought the book.
> 
> I just intend to use it for bad guys.




Took the words right out of my mouth.  Thanks for the informative play experience with the class.  Threads like this are really enjoyable and helpful.

Bought the book a few weeks ago and I really like it.  It'll have to find its way into my games whenever I get playing again.


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## hong (Apr 4, 2007)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Goodness, that would be useful.



 See link in sig.

Oops, no sig! Sig attached.

-------
"Yes, I said Awesome Blow. Go ahead, hong - you know you wanna sig it...." -- S
*Hong's D&D page* | *Hong's Iron Heroes page*


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## hong (Apr 4, 2007)

jasin said:
			
		

> That has been my experience as well. I'd say that it's true that clerics and druids have the potential to be (among the) most powerful, but it's how you use the potential that counts. And that doesn't just mean character design twinkery; tactics in play are at least just as important.
> 
> I've been in a game with a single-class ranger with just a couple of non-PHB feats and a psion straight off the WotC minmaxing boards (full plated psion/illithid slayer polymorphing into a hydra with a feat to gain a Su ability), and it was the ranger that was considered the powerhouse of the group, while the psion somehow consistently managed to enter his uber combat mode exactly the round before the fight is over.




That reminds me of the ubertwinked cleric in the RttToH campaign, who was also the character who died the most. If he got his full buff suite up, he could be awesome, but this almost never happened and his unbuffed strength was puny by comparison. The player has an eldritch knight in this campaign (absent for a few sessions) and he's still the one who's died the most.



> Who is that?




Martin. He's probably the one who's most likely to think in terms of "winning the game", ie foiling the DM's dastardly plans, surviving to fight another day, etc. The powergaming he does is directed towards this end, as opposed to being an end in itself: eg he got shadowdancer levels for hide in plain sight, uncanny dodge and evasion, and his ninja character in RttToEE/RttToH had the same abilities. One of the first spells he cast in the Dragotha fight was superior invisibility (Spell Compendium), so that Draggie wouldn't be able to target him.


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## Nail (Apr 5, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> One of the first spells he cast in the Dragotha fight was superior invisibility (Spell Compendium), so that Draggie wouldn't be able to target him.



Now there's a cool spell......


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## jasin (Apr 5, 2007)

Is it? "So invisible you can't be seen even by things that see invisible" reminded me a bit of d02's "killz yous even if you cant be kilt".

Still, by the time we go up against Dragotha, I'll probably have it myself. I'm not proud.


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## Nail (Apr 6, 2007)

jasin said:
			
		

> Is it? "So invisible you can't be seen even by things that see invisible" reminded me a bit of d02's "killz yous even if you cant be kilt".
> 
> Still, by the time we go up against Dragotha, I'll probably have it myself. I'm not proud.



In one of the final fights in the last campaign, I had the BBEG use it at the beginning of the  fight (along with Time Stop, obviously).  It worked very well....and kept the high-level combat going.  Usually high level combats are too short for my liking.


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## hong (Apr 6, 2007)

I hate greater invis with all of my body including my pee-pee, so I feel much the same way about the superior version. Still, I might allow it by making it target: personal. It'll make wizards that much more annoying, but then going up against a wiz without spellcaster support is foolish.

Oddly I don't have so much of a problem with the ninja ability to go invisible. I guess it's because it's an integral part of their schtick, and I love my ninjae.


Hong "yes, with my pee-pee as well" Ooi


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## KerlanRayne (Apr 6, 2007)

Hong, how is One With Shadow helping at all with Greater Insightful Strike? I must be missing something there. 

KerlanRayne


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## Egres (Apr 6, 2007)

KerlanRayne said:
			
		

> Hong, how is One With Shadow helping at all with Greater Insightful Strike? I must be missing something there.
> 
> KerlanRayne



_An incorporeal creature’s attacks pass through (ignore) natural armor, armor, and shields_


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## Vysirez (Apr 6, 2007)

Egres said:
			
		

> _An incorporeal creature’s attacks pass through (ignore) natural armor, armor, and shields_




And he has a ghost touch weapon, so he obviously planned that one in advance. 

I have to agree with some of the other posters, great thread. I definitely like the info on how it's playing for you. Also wanted to make a comment on your boost thing, I think it just happens to do with the schools you focus in, Desert Wind and Tiger's claw are a bit more boost heavy. Now that you have played the character a bit, I would guess you might drop some of the strikes and grab a few more boosts, but donno really. 

Course I also have to admit that I would have a really hard time making a swordsage without the shadow hand feat that gives dex to damage if your in a shadow hand stance and using XYZ weapons.


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## hong (Apr 6, 2007)

Vysirez said:
			
		

> And he has a ghost touch weapon, so he obviously planned that one in advance.




Actually, no. I DID have another cunning plan that involved being incorporeal, but the DM shot it down. But I kept one with shadow anyway because it's still great for defense, and the ghost touch weapon because 1) I'm generally paranoid about incorporeal draining undead; 2) I like the weapon theme (reaver of spirits). The synergy with greater insightful strike came in a flash of inspiration in the first fight against the marilith.



> I have to agree with some of the other posters, great thread. I definitely like the info on how it's playing for you. Also wanted to make a comment on your boost thing, I think it just happens to do with the schools you focus in, Desert Wind and Tiger's claw are a bit more boost heavy. Now that you have played the character a bit, I would guess you might drop some of the strikes and grab a few more boosts, but donno really.




Yeah, I think if I were to respec the character, I might pick up dancing mongoose and raging mongoose and drop some of the low-level strikes. Still, it's a pretty effective build now that I've gained some experience.



> Course I also have to admit that I would have a really hard time making a swordsage without the shadow hand feat that gives dex to damage if your in a shadow hand stance and using XYZ weapons.




Weapon of choice for a Shadow Hand swordsage is definitely spiked chain. Even ignoring the trip/disarm cheese, you get reach, Dex to damage, 2-handed damage and 2-handed Power Attack. It would be heavy on the feats, though.


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## KerlanRayne (Apr 7, 2007)

I was under the impression that a Ghost Touch weapon would not work if the weapon itself was incorporeal, only if the user was. I have seen discussions saying you can't use a Ghost Touch weapon to negate the penalties while using Blink because it only crosses one direction. Does it not work for a different reason that doesn't affect this character? 

KerlanRayne


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## Vysirez (Apr 7, 2007)

Ghost touch doesnt work for blink because you are not incorporal, you are ethereal. At least part of the time. Ghost touch doesnt work vs ethereal, just incorporal


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## kibbitz (Apr 7, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> Actually, no. I DID have another cunning plan that involved being incorporeal, but the DM shot it down. But I kept one with shadow anyway because it's still great for defense, and the ghost touch weapon because 1) I'm generally paranoid about incorporeal draining undead; 2) I like the weapon theme (reaver of spirits). The synergy with greater insightful strike came in a flash of inspiration in the first fight against the marilith.




Could you reveal what that cunning plan involves and on what grounds was it shot down on?


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## hong (Apr 7, 2007)

kibbitz said:
			
		

> Could you reveal what that cunning plan involves and on what grounds was it shot down on?



 One with shadow + diamond nightmare blade + Power Attack = 

Unfortunately I forgot that if you're incorporeal you lose your Str score, so you no longer meet the Str 13 prereq for Power Attack =


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## Egres (Apr 7, 2007)

wrong thread, please ignore.


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## kibbitz (Apr 8, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> One with shadow + diamond nightmare blade + Power Attack =
> 
> Unfortunately I forgot that if you're incorporeal you lose your Str score, so you no longer meet the Str 13 prereq for Power Attack =




Wow... I can't imagine the devastation if there was some way to allow your Str to apply under incorporeality


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## Fedifensor (Apr 8, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> One with shadow + diamond nightmare blade + Power Attack =
> 
> Unfortunately I forgot that if you're incorporeal you lose your Str score, so you no longer meet the Str 13 prereq for Power Attack =




Well, if you had a naturally psionic race, there's always Deep Impact + Diamond Nightmare Blade + Power Attack...


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## hong (Apr 9, 2007)

Happiness is rolling 4 critical hits in a row on a Colossal overworm, with haste, Power Attack and pouncing charge. 20, 18 (Improved Crit), 19, 20. 298 points of damage before DR, 238 after.

But it was still standing (or squirming), so I hit it again with greater insightful strike for another 100 points.

But it still refused to die, so I hit it again with true strike + diamond nightmare blade. And rolled another 20, for 270 points. I described it as starting on one side of the thing and cutting straight through to the other side, in one smooth motion. Because of evasion, I didn't even mess my perfect hair.

In the next fight, the wiz blasted 12 Kyuss knights with a maximised meteor swarm; they charged; and the cleric hit them with mass heal. I got there just in time for one of them to drop at my feet.

We needed some cigars, that's for sure. Alhaster in the middle of the Kyuss onslaught has a certain New York + Ghostbusters vibe to it.

This session was pretty much summed up by those fights. Geoff (the DM) also used some of my NPC villain classes (see D&D link in sig) against us, but they didn't achieve much. Well, except for the last fight with the chief Kyuss knight, who challenged the dwarf to a duel. The dwarf ripped him a new one, but got hit in turn by the Kk's eye tentacle attacks, draining him down to Int 0. We called it a draw; the dwarf called it a win because the bad guy dropped first.

Speaking of the dwarf, it's not good when he fails a save vs confusion and decides to lay into the party -- in particular, into me. But I ran away next round, leaving a trail of blood and urine, while the dwarf stood around doing nothing. We dealt with that easily enough, by the cunning strategem of waiting for it to wear off.

Finally reached 20th level. Picked up time stands still, and swapped out claw at the moon for raging mongoose. Those two plus haste = 10 attacks on a full round action. The DM pointed out that if I had Scribe Martial Script, I could put TST into a script and give it to the dwarf. Ick!

NEXT session we'll most likely be meeting both Lashonna and Kyuss. That should be slightly different.


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## hong (Apr 9, 2007)

kibbitz said:
			
		

> Wow... I can't imagine the devastation if there was some way to allow your Str to apply under incorporeality



 I guess it would be a bit like the fight in tonight's session where I got to use my newly acquired heartseeker amulet (next melee attack is a touch attack). We nerfed it so that it requires a standard action rather than a swift action, and I can only use it once per encounter, but still, that's an almost-guaranteed 200+ points. The scary thing is that the dwarf still out-damages me, at least against evil Kyuss-worshippers (of which there are plenty).


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## hong (Apr 22, 2007)

We had the last session of the AoW yesterday. Man, that Kyuss with his wailing dire ax executioner's mace is a badass.

First, some final observations about swordsage and schools.

The medium BAB isn't as limiting as it appeared at first. This is because much of the swordsage's combat power is tied up in strikes, so most of the time I was making just the one attack per round at my highest bonus. In this circumstance, it didn't matter as much that I had fewer iterative attacks, or that the BAB wasn't the best (since it was usually still high enough).

Diamond Mind is an awesome offensive and defensive school at high levels. The best offensive strikes I had were time stands still (#1), diamond nightmare blade and greater insightful strike. Diamond defense saved my butt half a dozen times, and on at least 4 occasions those were with a 2 on the d20 roll. This made for much mirth (from me) and much wailing and gnashing of teeth (from the DM and other players).

Of the other strikes, five-shadow superlongname still has the coolest name, but we ruled that it didn't work on undead, which is most of the monsters in AOW. Other than that, the secondary effects are nice, but when it comes to taking someone down, there's no substitute for gobs of hit point damage. Swooping dragon attack OTOH is just silly; I stopped using it after the first 2 sessions because DC 60+ saves were too much for people to accept.

Time stands still and diamond nightmare blade are possibly a bit too good. I hit 300 points in the first round against Kyuss with TST. That was with -10/+20 Power Attack and an artifact item giving +20 to hit; that +20 however has to be considered in the context of my medium BAB and Kyuss' 53+ AC. I can only imagine what a properly twinked warblade would be capable of. In another fight, I hit 270 points with a DNB critical. IMO the maneuver is too situational; it's mediocre against high-AC opponents, but against low- and moderate-AC ones it's a killer. Maybe +5 attack and x3 damage would make things more consistent, rather than x4 damage.

Other staple stances/maneuvers: from Shadow Hand, the teleporters, balance on the sky and one with shadow; from Tiger Claw, sudden leap, leaping dragon stance, pouncing charge and raging mongoose; from Diamond Mind, all the save boosters and quicksilver motion.

Great moments in the session:

The fight with Lashonna at the base of the ziggurat. The wizard cut loose with 2 maximised meteor swarms, and the cleric did the same with 2 mass heals. The dwarf barbarian, who normally feasts on such occasions, was there basically to clean up the scraps this time. I busied myself taking down a couple of armoured reavers in one round, with time stands still (one full attack per opponent, after they got softened up first with a sunburst). Oh, and I showed those Blessed Angels how to REALLY wield a bastard sword like a girl.

The fight with the three broodfiends, with their Int-draining attacks, was PAINFUL. We went 4 sessions without a single PC death, and then we got 2 in the one fight. The eldritch knight archer failed saves against 2 of their breath weapons, and then got whacked with a critical, taking him to -25 points. He was a puddle of goo inside his contingencied resilient sphere. I got tentacled for 11 points of Intelligence drain, taking me to 1 Int. I've already mentioned separating your mind from your body, but this was ridiculous. The barb had it worse, being taken to negative Int, dropping him stone dead despite still having >300 hit points.

(Aside: D&D could do with a spell to remove ability drain as a standard action. Restoration takes 3 rounds, and greater res 10 minutes.)

As if this wasn't bad enough, the archer then got up, and we could see that he was now an undead horror dripping with worms. (Something similar would have happened to the barb, but the cleric used miracle to keep him alive.) He started attacking us, so we were forced to take him down. Some of the other players questioned my ability to keep using maneuvers despite being at 1 Int, but I pointed out that I'd been separating my mind from my body for so long, it had become second nature. Besides, by definition, you don't need brains to dish out mindless violence.

So, we killed the undead archer. The wiz glitterdusted him, negating his greater invis, and I charged in with diamond nightmare blade, doing ~190 damage. Poor sod didn't even have Con bonus to hit points.

I GOT TO DIAMOND NIGHTMARE BLADE A PLAYER CHARACTER. I CAN DIE HAPPY NOW.

Next fight, with Maralee and her Kyuss knight companions, all 8 of them, all with more Int-draining tentacles. The barb was hiding behind the wiz, but we shoved him out in front. Another meteor swarm/mass heal/incendiary cloud combo helped take them out, and Maralee made a tactical mistake by charging in to attack, thus opening her to a full attack from the barb and a GIS from me. However, it still wasn't enough to kill her before she took me to 1/4 hit points and the barb to negative Int again. Yep, third PC death for the session, although a heal stopped him from turning into undead.

Last fight, with Kyuss. From what the module says (the DM lent it to me after the game), I surmise that Kyuss should have taken 2 rounds to emerge from his prison if we finished all the subquests, which we did. Stuff that for a joke; we'd probably have snotted him in one round, let alone two, if left to our own devices.

So, instead, we got to face Kyuss in (almost) his full glory: AC 53-ish, 600+ hit points, active from the get-go. And we snotted him anyway, time-stop-multiple-harm cheese and all.

From the top:

I win init, go first, open with sudden leap, followed by time stands still for 303 points (less DR). Wiz casts time stop of his own, summoning an elemental monolith and a solar, and bringing out the sphere of annihilation. Eldritch knight dispels 5 of 8 of Kyuss' buffs.

Kyuss casts time stop, coming out of it much healthier, with a new buff going (unholy aura) and a funky looking rod floating on top of the sphere. Said rod falls into the sphere, causing an almighty explosion for 60 points of damage to everyone. Presumably Kyuss as well.

The barb charges in and hits for another 100 points with Slashing Flurry (and he wanted the rod of law, hah). The cleric strips another 2 of Kyuss's buffs away.

In the next round, I use diamond nightmare blade for 230 points, the elemental monolith hits for ~90 points, and the solar casts mass heal for another 100 points.

Kyuss is looking rather unhealthy again, so he does his time stop trick, which the cleric tries to counter, but fails. He reappears somewhere over there. The barb, instead of following, delays....

I attack with pouncing charge, for another 150-odd points. The wiz dim doors the barb next to Kyuss, and the barb full attacks for something in the region of 300 points. The numbers got a bit hazy after a while.

Kyuss is again looking rather bad, so resorts to time stop again, but is counterspelled. Whoops! Decisive moment in the fight, thanks to the cleric and the eldritch knight who used a spell to let him reroll the dispel check. He's naturally rather pissed, so resorts to his engulf special attack, rolling over the wiz, the barb, and me. This was one of the occasions where diamond defense saved my butt. There's nothing like rolling a 2 on a DC 39 save, and announcing "I made it!" The wiz also succeeded, but the barb wasn't so lucky, taking 16 points Int drain, dropping him to -4. For the third time in the session.

I dance out of the engulfing mass of worms, and on emerging, use greater insightful strike to shove my blade into Kyuss where it hurts. Damn Kyuss still won't go down! And because I used diamond defense, I couldn't finish him off with raging mongoose!

So it was the barb and wiz who killed Kyuss instead. THEY STOLE MY KILL, THE BASTARDS.

3 rounds. One guy died, and would have lived if he'd rolled 1 higher on his save. Half the group came out of it with no damage at all, including me. Kyuss' time stop tactic had the side-effect of keeping him constantly on the defensive, so he never actually did anything to hurt us (except for making the sphere explode, and engulfing at the end) -- and as soon as the tactic failed, we were able to finish him.

It's not a fight I'd have wanted to do without all that spellcaster support, since it's the combination of melee twinkage and counterspelling that did it for him. I'm not sure that the counterspelling cleric had as much fun as he might have, though, since although it was a critical contribution to the fight, all the gloryhound damage-dealing stuff was from me, the wiz and the barb. But that's a discussion for another thread.

So it all ended in joy and happiness... and a massive tower that dissolved into a huge mass of worms in seconds flat. Said worms proceeded to eat into the ground, creating a 100' wide hole and forming a notorious dungeon that will challenge adventurers for years to come. Well, these things happen.

(Epilogue)

As it turns out, Padma's not going to to be able to retire just yet. She's fated to get sucked back to Faerun, as the next episode of the struggle against the King of Shadows gets started. No rest for the wicked, as they say....


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## kibbitz (Apr 22, 2007)

Way past bedtime, so I skimmed through it quickly. Still, this definitely rated as awesome. Pity about the Barb dying repeatedly, but well, better him than you   Though was the eldritch knight you mentioned at the finale with Kyuss the same guy as the one who was turned into undead? If so, how was he restored?


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## shilsen (Apr 22, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> The barb had it worse, being taken to negative Int, dropping him stone dead despite still having >300 hit points.




Was this a house rule or a special ability of those creatures? Normally, no ability can be drained below 0 and being dropped to 0 only kills you for Con. Int 0 just renders you unconscious.


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## Slaved (Apr 22, 2007)

shilsen said:
			
		

> Was this a house rule or a special ability of those creatures? Normally, no ability can be drained below 0 and being dropped to 0 only kills you for Con. Int 0 just renders you unconscious.




I thought the same thing. Perhaps it is a special ability like the shadows strength drain?


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## moritheil (Apr 22, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> Some people maintain that there is a rich and detailed storyline connecting these random instances of violence, but after careful study, I have come to the conclusion that they were mistaken.




Quoteworthy.  Thanks for sharing your analysis with us!


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## Nail (Apr 23, 2007)

Slaved said:
			
		

> I thought the same thing.



Me too.

Clarify, oh Never-Damaged-By-Kyuss?


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## hong (Apr 23, 2007)

shilsen said:
			
		

> Was this a house rule or a special ability of those creatures? Normally, no ability can be drained below 0 and being dropped to 0 only kills you for Con. Int 0 just renders you unconscious.



With these monsters, 0 Int kills you and turns you into an undead Kyuss minion. The negatives are just my way of emphasising how dead he was. 0 = all dead, -1 = really all dead, -6 = incredibly, positively, no I really mean it all dead.


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## hong (Apr 23, 2007)

kibbitz said:
			
		

> Way past bedtime, so I skimmed through it quickly. Still, this definitely rated as awesome. Pity about the Barb dying repeatedly, but well, better him than you   Though was the eldritch knight you mentioned at the finale with Kyuss the same guy as the one who was turned into undead? If so, how was he restored?



 Yeah, same character. The cleric actually bought 5 scrolls of true res at Magepoint before the start of the session.


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## Olive (Apr 23, 2007)

This is a cool thread that makes me want to both buy all the Age of Worms dungeon mags and the Bo9S pretty much straight away!


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## hong (Apr 23, 2007)

Olive said:
			
		

> This is a cool thread that makes me want to both buy all the Age of Worms dungeon mags and the Bo9S pretty much straight away!



 My fiendish plan is succeeding! 


And just for posterity, here's Padma's statblock as of just before the Kyuss fight.


*Padma Illindra [redux]*

Female human swordsage 18/warblade 2
LG Medium humanoid (human)
*Init* +15; *Senses* Listen +29, Spot +8
*Languages* Common, Old Suloise
________________________________________
*AC* 42, touch 31, flat-footed 34
(Dex +7, Wis +7, armor +8, deflection +5, natural armor +3, insight +1, dodge +1)
*hp* 220 (20 HD)
*Immune* grappling
*Resist* improved evasion, uncanny dodge, +4 bonus to saves against necromantic and death effects
*Fort* +24, *Ref* +26, *Will* +25
________________________________________
*Speed* 30 ft
*Melee* _Sakhalandra (Spiritreaver)_ +29/+24/+19 (1d10+15/19–20) or _luck rapier_ +24/+19/+14 (1d6+8/18–20)
*Base Atk* +15; *Grp* +22
*Atk Options* insightful strike (Diamond Mind, Tiger Claw), martial discipline weapon (Diamond Mind, Tiger Claw), Blade Meditation (Diamond Mind), Power Attack, Acrobatic Strike, _boots of speed, amulet of finding the center_ 1/encounter, _sacred scabbard_ 3/day
*Combat Gear* 2 flasks universal solvent, 2 potions of cure light wounds
________________________________________
*Swordsage Maneuvers and Stances Known* (IL 19th, 11 prepared):
Stances — stance of clarity (1st), child of shadow (1st), assassin’s stance (3rd), leaping dragon stance (5th), balance on the sky (8th)
Strikes — shadow blade technique (1st), emerald razor (2nd), insightful strike (3rd), death from above (4th), bloodletting strike (DC 22) (5th), pouncing charge (5th), rabid bear strike (6th), greater insightful strike (6th), swooping dragon strike (7th), diamond nightmare blade (8th), five-shadow creeping ice enervation strike (DC 26) (9th), time stands still (9th)
Boosts — cloak of deception (2nd), shadow stride (5th), moment of alacrity (6th), quicksilver motion (7th), shadow blink (7th), raging mongoose (8th)
Counters — moment of perfect mind (1st), action before thought (2nd), mind over body (3rd), one with shadow (8th), diamond defense (8th)
Disciplines: Diamond Mind, Shadow Hand, Tiger Claw​*Warblade Maneuvers and Stances Known* (IL 11th, 3 prepared):
Stances — punishing stance (1st)
Strikes — disarming strike (2nd)
Boosts — sudden leap (1st)
Counters — iron heart surge (3rd), iron heart focus (5th)
Disciplines: Iron Heart, Tiger Claw​________________________________________
*Abilities* Str 22*, Dex 25*, Con 22*, Int 12, Wis 24*, Cha 13
*SQ* battle clarity (Reflex saves), defensive stance (Shadow Hand, Tiger Claw), weapon aptitude, freedom of movement
*Feats* Dodge, Great Fortitude, Blade Meditation (Diamond Mind), Unnerving Calm, Power Attack, Adaptive Style, Acrobatic Strike, Weapon Focus (rapier, shortspear, trident, bastard sword), Improved Initiative
*Skills* Concentration +41, Balance +28, Jump +30, Tumble +31, Knowledge (martial lore) +23, Listen +29, Sense Motive +29, Intimidate +25, Diplomacy +8
*Possessions* combat gear plus _Sakhalandra (Spiritreaver), luck rapier, celestial armor, gloves of Dexterity +6, amulet of finding the center +6, shirt of Constitution +6, belt of giant Strength +6, bracers of natural armor +3, cloak of resistance +5, headband of Concentration +10, ring of protection +5, ring of freedom of movement, boots of speed, dusty rose ioun stone, pale green ioun stone, handy haversack, greater crystal of lifekeeping, lesser crystal of return, sacred scabbard,_ 330,413 gp
* +2 inherent bonuses to Strength, Dexterity, Constitution and Wisdom.


_Amulet of finding the center:_ The emerald at the center of this dark, three-tined amulet sparkles with motes of green light. Its wearer gains a continuous +6 enhancement bonus to Wisdom. Once per encounter, it grants its wearer the ability to make their next melee attack as a melee touch attack. Activating this ability requires a standard action, separate from the attack itself. Price 39,000 gp.

_Sakhalandra (Spiritreaver):_ This _+5 ghost touch, martial discipline, cold iron bastard sword_ is attuned to the arts of the Tiger Claw and Diamond Mind. Once per day, it grants its wielder the benefit of a quickened _true strike_. Price 160,370 gp.


Add another level and 85,000 gp after defeating Kyuss. WTF am I going to do with 415,000 gp?!


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## Satori (Apr 23, 2007)

After looking at your statblock, I'm both amazed and very pleased.

Let me explain.

After reading through your posts, I was continually impressed with what appeared to be very meaty and substantial numbers and results during combat.  I immediately assumed that you munchkined the hell out of your PC and essentially went for a "Crash Test".

However, after looking at your character, I can't help but notice that the PC isn't exactly "Optimized" by most "Number Crunch" standards.

No Shadowblade, no Stormguard Warrior cheese, no White Raven obnoxiousness, only a smattering of Warblade (arguably broken), no Jade Phoenix Mage, no Shadow Sun Ninja with Constitution Damage regeneration for unlimited negative levels, no Diamond Mind combined with Iaijutsu Master, no Kukri Bloodclaw Master cheese with a "Bag of Rats" for critical hit insanity...

In fact, it seems like you avoided a large number of the "MUST HAVE" crunch feats for melee characters...

...and you still survived, had fun, contributed greatly, and dished out respectable numbers.

I think I just had an RP-gasm.

...

Ok, I'm done.

If I'm to believe this...then the ToB:Bo9S essentially offers a way for a PC to not only indulge in characterization at the expense of functionality...but to do so AND remain a valid and integral part of the group as well!

I think I might need a few more moments.


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## Arkhandus (Apr 23, 2007)

Cool stuff to read about, hong.  Thanks for sharing your experiences with us all!

After reading this thread, and seeing a friend play a swordsage in a brief 1st-4th level mini-campaign, I decided to try out a Tome of Battle character when we met for D&D again this Sunday.  The previous DM moved out of town, so a different DM took over, the guy who played the swordsage in that game (with my halfling copper-dragon shaman, another player's half-orc barbarian, and another guy's human rogue).  He decided to start a separate game, so we started making new characters, and he set the level to 10th and a 42-point-buy, max HP and 49,000 GP to spend.  He's going to make things tough, using the same point buy and max HP setup for NPCs.

So I decided to try playing a swordsage this time.  I know warblade would likely be too cheesy, and one player's already going to be a barbarian anyway, so I'm avoiding that potential cheese factory.  Likewise with regards to the more abusive maneuvers and feats, far as I know, I'll avoid them if I can spot them.

Anyway, since I only have access to the ToB while I'm at the Sunday game with the DM who owns a copy, I wanted to ask for a bit of advice/assistance.  Just a bit.  Hong, if ya think I should move this query to a separate thread, just say the word.

[sblock]My Halfling Copper-Dragon Shaman 4 is being replaced with a Half-Giant (LA +1 race) Swordsage 5/Psychic Warrior 4.  Probably going to be true neutral.  Total ability scores from the point-buy, race, leveling, and items are Str 26 (+8), Dex 12 (+1), Con 16 (+3), Int 10 (+0), Wis 18 (+4), and Cha 10 (+0).  HP 99, standard AC 20, touch AC 15, flat-footed AC 19, initiative +3, speed 30 ft., BAB +6/+1.  I still need to name the guy, probably going to give him a background on Athas if there's any way he could've been astrally or ethereally transported away from there by another fellow....

Other PCs are a Human Wizard (probably from Oerth), a Sun Elf Swashbuckler (probably from Faerun), an Orc Barbarian (dunno where from), a Human (I think?) Warmage/Healer/Mystic Theurge (probably from Faerun), and a Goblin Rogue (dunno where from, but he's a siege engineer, tinker, and alchemist; just a rogue for the skill points, and he doesn't want to be relying on magic artifice).

For my PC, I may or may not want to take a prestige class from Book of Nine Swords, Expanded Psionics Handbook, or Complete Psionic.  All I'm sure of right now is that I'd really like a few more psionic feats/powers at some point and I intend to focus on stuff from the Book of Nine Swords.  Just about any 3.5 WotC book is allowed in the campaign, except Unearthed Arcana, Magic of Incarnum, and probably just a few other exceptions.

My feats at present are Adaptive Style, Psionic Weapon (PsyWar1 bonus feat), Vital Recovery, Instant Clarity (PsyWar2 bonus feat, from Bo9S), Martial Study (Desert Wind style - Burning Brand learned - Tumble permanent class skill), and Deep Impact.  Not sure yet if I should replace Martial Study (my 6th-level feat) with something else or just change the style/maneuver.  I may swap Instant Clarity (Bo9S psionic feat) with Psionic Meditation if I can't make Instant Clarity work well with my maneuvers, since I may need to regain my psionic focus in battle more often than 3 times per day to remain effective (though the move action to do so at-will through PM may cut into my effectiveness or not).

Main abilities so far are Powerful Build, Naturally Psionic, Stomp psi-like ability, two bonus feats, swordsage AC Bonus (Wis), Quick to Act (+2 initiative), Discipline Focus (undetermined as of yet), a few psionic powers, 13 power points, and a handful of martial maneuvers/stances.  Intended disciplines for use are Desert Wind (likely secondary), Diamond Mind (maybe primary), Setting Sun (not sure), and Stone Dragon (maybe primary).  I haven't looked at the other Swordsage disciplines yet except Shadowhand, which isn't likely to fit my character well so probably gonna ignore it.

Armed with a keen +1 large greatsword of ghost touch (save myself a feat and be able to hit annoying spirit/ether critters), a +1 large composite longbow (+8 Strength to damage, my backup since I can't fly under my own power), an ordinary large spiked gauntlet (in case I'm grappled or somesuch), a +1 mithril shirt of light fortification (...I fear the crits this DM may unleash), a +4 belt of giant's strength (I'm one of the 2 frontline PCs), a +2 periapt of wisdom (Will saves are important, my swordsage AC needs it, and my skills need it), a +1 cloak of resistance (obvious reasons), and a paltry few basic supplies.  If I really need some more cash for an item, I may swap out the Keen quality on my greatsword, and instead take the Ghost Strike psionic feat in place of Martial Study.

I can't remember if using Instant Clarity to regain Psionic Focus is a free action, or a swift action, and I couldn't figure out or remember if it only works at the end of the maneuver it is used with.  I was thinking about manifesting Psionic Lion's Charge and then using the 2nd or 3rd level Desert Wind boost (I forget its name) that grants an extra attack during a full-attack action (I recall the maneuver's duration being 'until end of turn'), but with -2 on the attack rolls (essentially like a melee version of Rapid Shot).  Now I can't remember either if Instant Clarity is strictly limited to once per round (I do know it's limited to 3 uses per day).  Psionic Lion's Charge is a swift action to manifest, and I don't recall if that Desert Wind maneuver is also a swift action or not; if they're both swifts, then I can't combine them in one turn.

I basically wanted to do this: First round of combat, use the Desert Wind maneuver I can't recall the name of; charge at an enemy; manifest Psionic Lion's Charge; attack once, expend Psionic Focus for Psionic Weapon's extra damage; use Instant Clarity to regain Psionic Focus; make my iterative attack, expending Psionic Focus again for Deep Impact to make it a touch attack; use Instant Clarity again to regain PF; make my extra attack from the maneuver, expend PF again for Psionic Weapon; use Instant Clarity again to regain PF for use next round.

Basically go all-out to pulverize a Big Bad in one round, or at least seriously maim them, and generally draw the remaining foes' attention to me rather than the less-threatening (and more fragile) casters, rogue, and swashbuckler.  Besides, I got Vital Recovery and Adaptable Style to help myself heal and recover maneuvers quickly, at least once per encounter, and one of the party's casters is a Healer/Warmage/Mystic Theurge (yes, a logic-breaking combo of pacifistic support and raw destruction) anyway.  I am guessing that my first conceived tactic is probably not viable in the rules, but I don't have the Book of Nine Swords myself to check now that I'm home.

An alternative tactic I'm considering is Dissolving Weapon (+4d6 acid on next attack) manifested in the round before I attack, then charging in and using a Strike maneuver of some sort (maybe Burning Brand?) in combination with that acid damage and Psionic Weapon (+2d6 damage).  But I'm not sure it'll be worthwhile, considering the standard action manifestation time of Dissolving Weapon.

If both that and Psionic Lion's Charge prove ineffective combos with my Swordsage maneuvers, I may just go with Concealing Amorpha as my 2nd-level power or just lower my Psychic Warrior level to 2nd while boosting my Swordsage level to 7th.  But I really wanted to give 3.5 psionics a try while I'm actually playing a 3.5 game for a change, so I'm hoping I can make an effective combo of psi + martial strikes/boosts.

For my 1st-level powers I'm going with Expansion and two other powers from amongst Biofeedback, Force Screen, Grip of Iron, Defensive Precognition, Offensive Precognition, and Offensive Prescience.  Animal Affinity is of little use to me, so I'm not considering it; +2 AC from Dex or Wis wouldn't help much, and I don't have the manifester level to augment it enough for +4 from boosting both scores.  Most likely I'm going to go with Force Screen and Offensive Prescience, but I'm not sure.  Considering my PC is a very muscular half-giant and I'll be using Expansion, my grapple check modifier will already be +18 to +22, so Grip of Iron's +4 may be a waste, but combined with a Stone Dragon maneuver or two my PC might be a very effective grappler, but I dunno (I don't have the feats to spare for Improved Unarmed Strke or Improved Grapple, most likely, so I'd likely suffer AoOs and take some punishment whenever I start a grapple).

My AC is usually going to suck or be mediocre (at present, it looks like I'll have AC 20 most of the time; +5 from a mithril shirt of light fortification, +1 Dex, +4 Wis as a Swordsage), especially if I charge into melee often, and with the AC I'll lose from manifesting Expansion.  Besides whatever I may acquire from maneuvers and stances in terms of AC bonuses, my AC is probably going to be ineffective most often.  Thus Force Screen (+4 shield to AC) and Defensive Precognition (+1 or +2 insight to AC and saves) may be helpful in reducing how painfully easy it will be for enemies to hit my PC.  I don't recall if the Swordsage's AC Bonus from 2nd-level is an insight bonus or just an unnamed bonus that, like the Monk's, isn't so much insight but mere instinct.  Thicken Skin is a decent power to replace Defensive Precognition, but although its duration is longer it doesn't boost saves as DP does.  If it seems I can't get my AC to a decent number at a decent cost in power points, I'll just go with Biofeedback and be able soak up a bit more damage at least.

Besides those psionic and psionic/maneuver-combo matters, I'm wondering what maneuvers and stances I should take.  I'm intending to use some mix of Desert Wind, Diamond Mind, Setting Sun, and Stone Dragon, but most likely I'll be focused in just one of those while dabbling a tad in one or two of the others.  It didn't look like Shadowhand would be terribly useful/effective with my character, and our party is only 6 PCs (three of whom are likely to avoid melee) so White Raven is probably no good to us.  Leadership is probably not a feat I want to take with this character.[/sblock]


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## hong (Apr 23, 2007)

Satori said:
			
		

> After looking at your statblock, I'm both amazed and very pleased.
> 
> Let me explain.
> 
> ...



 Heh. I guess I have a low threshold of wackiness when it comes to powergaming. Our whole group is like that, in fact. Even the dwarf tank was a very straightforward fighter/barbarian build; he just happened to have Melee Weapon Mastery, Slashing Flurry and lots of magic items optimised for fighting Kyuss spawn.

I did get a couple of custom items to aid in twinking: swift-action true strike 1/day on the sword, for +30000 gp, and a nerfed heartseeker amulet (MIC) for +3000 gp. The nerf was in making it a standard action instead of a swift action to activate.

The former was very useful, allowing me to max Power Attack/diamond nightmare blade on monsters with fairly high ACs (40-50). I don't think it was broken for the price; I looked on it essentially as a way of ensuring I could showboat in a tough fight, 1/day. I could still use the PA/DNB combo effectively without it, just on lower ACs (<35) and with slightly less PA damage. In the REALLY tough fight (Dragotha, AC 58) it didn't help, because then the Concentration check became the limiting factor.

By contrast, I got to use the touch attack item once. Giving up a std action to activate is a big hit.


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## Nifft (Apr 23, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> The cleric actually bought 5 scrolls of true res at Magepoint before the start of the session.




I think this says something very significant about high-level play. 

 -- N


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## hong (Apr 23, 2007)

Nifft said:
			
		

> I think this says something very significant about high-level play.
> 
> -- N



 It's more that it was the buildup to the final encounter, and the module actually encourages the DM to let the players get as much stuff as they can. You get a MOUNTAIN of treasure after killing Dragotha -- something like 1.2 MILLION gp worth. Since the end of the world is coming up, as well as the end of the adventure path, you might as well spend it.

Magepoint, IIRC, is pretty much there for the sole purpose of giving your characters a home base where they can rest/resurrect/resupply in between modules. The DM basically said we could buy anything in the DMG and MIC in between killing Dragotha and going to Alhaster, but no crafting of custom items (including adding stuff to existing items). I took the opportunity to get 8 scrolls of wish, for the inherent bonuses.


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## Imruphel (Apr 29, 2007)

Hong,

Thanks for posting your notes about Bo9S in play. After reading your comments I decided to buy the book and I'm really pleased with it. I'm going to include encounters with a crusader and with a warblade in my next couple of sessions and see if it whets the appetites of the players. I think one of them, in particular, would enjoy adding some warblade levels to his khopesh-using trip-master fighter.


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## hong (May 2, 2007)

Jeez mang, the game's been over for a week. Hey, I bet you're great with birthdays too! HAW HAW!

Ahem. Anyway, crusaders. They're a tricky class to play, IME, since you can never be sure which maneuvers are available and the bookkeeping is rather complex. Still, in the hands of a smart player they can be damn-near impossible to kill. I've DMed a dwarf crusader for a few sessions, and last session he copped a critical hit for 120 points. He was at -ve hp, but his Stone Power and delayed damage kept him going. Amazing.

Warblade is a lot easier. You're basically a fighter or barb with a few extra powers per fight. One thing to be careful about is that you don't get sucked in by the Int-based abilities; pumping Int at the expense of other stats won't usually do much good.

Can't remember if I mentioned this, but if you're going to use swordsages, I've found that they make heavy use of swift/immediate actions (this is true of all the ToB classes to some extent, but the SS in particular). This makes for some interesting tactical conundrums, especially if you add items from the Magic Item Compendium (lots of swift/immediate activation items).


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## Nail (May 2, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> .. if you're going to use swordsages, I've found that they make heavy use of swift/immediate actions (this is true of all the ToB classes to some extent, but the SS in particular). This makes for some interesting tactical conundrums, especially if you add items from the Magic Item Compendium (lots of swift/immediate activation items).



I was just working on a Swordsage, and found this to be true as I planned out tactics.  Often, I'd like to have an immediate action free to use as a counter in round 1 (usually the round in which you close)...but then I couldn't use the following round's swift action.  That's a major bummer, as many of standard-action manuevers just cry out for some of the swift action boosts.

...I do have that right, correct?  You can use an immediate action when its not your turn, but it uses up the swift action from your next turn?


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## Nifft (May 2, 2007)

This is why Stance of Alacrity is 8th level. Getting to do both a Counter and a Boost is solid awesome.

 -- N


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## hong (May 2, 2007)

Nail said:
			
		

> ...I do have that right, correct? You can use an immediate action when its not your turn, but it uses up the swift action from your next turn?




Correct.

And don't get me wrong, I LIKE the tactical constraint this puts on decisionmaking. Makes a change from just using your most powerful available ability each round.


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## Nail (May 2, 2007)

Nifft said:
			
		

> This is why Stance of Alacrity is 8th level. Getting to do both a Counter and a Boost is solid awesome.



Too bad the Swordsage I was working on was only 5th....



			
				hong said:
			
		

> ...don't get me wrong, I LIKE the tactical constraint this puts on decisionmaking. Makes a change from just using your most powerful available ability each round.



Me too.  Still, it's easy to forget about the immediate action if several other people have had their turns in between that and your next turn.


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## Hypersmurf (May 2, 2007)

Nail said:
			
		

> Too bad the Swordsage I was working on was only 5th....
> 
> Me too.  Still, it's easy to forget about the immediate action if several other people have had their turns in between that and your next turn.




Have a Swift Action card on the table in front of you.  At the end of your turn, you get to turn it face-up.  If you use an Immediate or Swift action, turn it face down.  You can't use an Immediate or Swift action unless your card is face-up.

-Hyp.


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## hong (May 2, 2007)

Apropos of nothing, I reckon a SS could do with maybe a few more maneuvers known and readied early on, and not so many later on. Since so much of their power is tied up in maneuvers (especially strikes), it's gonna hurt if you only have 3-5 available in a combat. Conversely, at high levels you have more maneuvers known than you're realistically going to use, so the excess goes to waste.


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## Kmart Kommando (May 27, 2007)

My 2nd level Crusader keeps absorbing 3-4 times his total hit points every combat, and the healer never has to heal me in combat.    

Last session, I walked into a fight down 11 hit points (somebody missed a trap), and then ended the fight down 6 hit points.  Then I walked into a fight 6 down hit points, came out down 7 hit points, then started the third combat down 7 hit points and walked out fully healed.   

Keeping track of the maneuver pool though, is very annoying, even at low levels.  Sometimes I forget to flip my next maneuver card, or mark down damage off my delayed pool before my temp hit points in a round, etc.

My high level Swordsage had Adaptive Style for his whole career, and I used it maybe once every third session.


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## hong (Jun 27, 2008)

jasin said:


> Is it? "So invisible you can't be seen even by things that see invisible" reminded me a bit of d02's "killz yous even if you cant be kilt".
> 
> Still, by the time we go up against Dragotha, I'll probably have it myself. I'm not proud.



So, from emails, Jasin should now have faced or be about to face Dragotha.

Tell us what happened, Jasin!


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## jasin (Jun 28, 2008)

hong said:


> So, from emails, Jasin should now have faced or be about to face Dragotha.
> 
> Tell us what happened, Jasin!



We've only just entered the Tabernacle of Worms.

I don't have superior invisibility, and I don't think I'll get it. I do have AC in the 60s thanks to shapechanging into a pit fiend, and the melee guys aren't far behind, polymorphed into giants. We also have two celestials along: poor Angelica whom I've been binding since 11th level, and an unnamed generic greater planar ally of Garl Glittergold, who turned out to be the one to kill the thessalhydra and get his sword imbued with a part of Balakarde's spirit. Oh, and the pathetically multiclassed derro wyvern-rider is with us too, having failed a save vs. dominate monster.


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## SPECTRE666 (Jun 28, 2008)

hong said:


> http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3297520&postcount=13



-This link isn't working. I would really like to see this character. Thanks.


*SPECTRE666*


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## hong (Jun 29, 2008)

Add a "/forum" right after "enworld.org", like so:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showpost.php?p=3297520&postcount=13

But it's just a lower-level version of the level 20 Padma in this thread.


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## SPECTRE666 (Jun 29, 2008)

hong said:


> Add a "/forum" right after "enworld.org", like so:
> 
> http://www.enworld.org/forum/showpost.php?p=3297520&postcount=13
> 
> But it's just a lower-level version of the level 20 Padma in this thread.



-Thanks.


*SPECTRE666*


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## Razz3e (Jul 1, 2008)

To the OP, why wouldn't Spring Attack work with maneuvers that require a Standard Action? Don't they work like attacks? I don't see why one couldn't move, attack with a maneuver, and continue moving unless the maneuver was a full-round action.


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## blargney the second (Jul 1, 2008)

Spring Attack lets you move before and after you use the attack action with a melee weapon.  You can't replace that attack action with a standard action strike any more than you could replace it with a standard action spell or a standard action breath weapon.


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## Razz3e (Jul 2, 2008)

Strange, I could've swore using a maneuver for an attack is no different than making an actual attack. Does this also mean one could not use feats in conjunction with attacks using maneuvers, such as Combat Expertise and Power Attack?


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## Kmart Kommando (Jul 2, 2008)

Looks like yes to Power Attack and no to Combat Expertise, by how it's worded.  We've been using both with martial strikes.


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## Razz3e (Jul 2, 2008)

Kmart Kommando said:


> Looks like yes to Power Attack and no to Combat Expertise, by how it's worded.  We've been using both with martial strikes.




I re-read the text and it states no "special attacks" such as bull rush or sunder. I assume they are talking about the attacks described in the Player's Handbook (Aid Another, Bull Rush, Charge, Grapple, Sunder, Trip, etc.), as it does not specifically state anywhere that you cannot combine FEATS with your strike maneuvers. As evidenced by the text, it only mentions bull rush and sunder, not feats.


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## Old_school_overlord (Jul 2, 2008)

If you've used an immediate action, I believe you can still trade your following turn's move action for a swift to boost with.


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## Jhaelen (Jul 2, 2008)

Old_school_overlord said:


> If you've used an immediate action, I believe you can still trade your following turn's move action for a swift to boost with.



Nope.
Many consider it a reasonable house-rule, though. Or at least I've seen many argue that it wouldn't hurt balance to allow trading a move action for a swift action.

I happen to disagree with that view, though.
Imho, many immediate/swift powers have clearly been written under the assumption noone would be able to use them more than once in a given round. It also makes using immediate actions a no-brainer. Normally, it involves a trade-off since taking an immediate action will deprive you of your next swift action.


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## Kmart Kommando (Jul 4, 2008)

Razz3e said:


> I re-read the text and it states no "special attacks" such as bull rush or sunder. I assume they are talking about the attacks described in the Player's Handbook (Aid Another, Bull Rush, Charge, Grapple, Sunder, Trip, etc.), as it does not specifically state anywhere that you cannot combine FEATS with your strike maneuvers. As evidenced by the text, it only mentions bull rush and sunder, not feats.



well, Combat Expertise says 







> When you use the attack action or the full attack action in melee, you can take a penalty of as much as –5 on your attack roll and add the same number (+5 or less) as a dodge bonus to your Armor Class. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus.



so no strikes that aren't attack actions or full-attack actions, because pretty much all of them are standard actions or fullround actions that happen to involve an attack or several attacks as part of them.
Power Attack just says :







> On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.



 you can use it with anything that does melee damage.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Jul 4, 2008)

Jhaelen said:


> I happen to disagree with that view, though.
> Imho, many immediate/swift powers have clearly been written under the assumption noone would be able to use them more than once in a given round. It also makes using immediate actions a no-brainer. Normally, it involves a trade-off since taking an immediate action will deprive you of your next swift action.




Agreed.

I would let someone trade a standard action for an extra swift action, if they needed it THAT badly.


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## OneWinged4ngel (Jul 5, 2008)

hong said:


> 6d6 fire damage points to Fan the Flame, a 3rd level Desert Wind strike. You can't get 3rd level strikes as a 3rd level character.




Gotta love when people scream "(insert new ruleset here) is overpowered!" (particularly Tome of Battle and Psionics) just because they can't read the simple rules in simple english.


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## Runestar (Jul 5, 2008)

Razz3e said:


> Strange, I could've swore using a maneuver for an attack is no different than making an actual attack. Does this also mean one could not use feats in conjunction with attacks using maneuvers, such as Combat Expertise and Power Attack?




By your interpretation, a warblade with bab16+ could use 4 attack maneuvers/round, by virtue of having 4 attacks....


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## Nadaka (Jul 7, 2008)

Mort said:


> That's absolutely true, but the point is you are limited to a melee build without any real choice...




Ahem... Warblade 20 Archer.
http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-831418


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## GoodKingJayIII (Aug 6, 2008)

About to play a Warblade for the first time this evening, 11th level.  Went for Diamond Mind and Iron Heart, but I'm aiming mostly for a defensive character.  If nothing else, I'm wishing I had a few thousand more gold for some stat boosting items.  Those will come later though.  Still, I expect my damage will still be potent.

I reread most of this writeup.  I'm expecting to enjoy myself.


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## akbearfoot (Aug 8, 2008)

I'm playing a warblade currently going through the Age of Worms storyline adapted for Ebberon.

We just hit 6th level and sofar he is a lot of fun.  He definitely hits harder than anyone else in the group, but he is behind on the defensive front.  He's also got a neat twist as he's inherited the Genie blood line from UA.

Everyone in the group has some sort of bonus item/bloodline/ability to add a little extra strength, and his bonus was a free minor Genie bloodline, with the option to buy up to Major(for the cost of intermediate), additionally the DM gave me 1d8s for hit points on the bloodline levels I spend.  Right now he's a Warblade 5, Bloodline1, focused on Diamond mind and Iron heart, with a little white raven.

Punishing stance and Pearl of black doubt are his 2 stances.  
Maneuvers = Tactical Strike, White Raven Tactics, Steel Wind, Moment of Perfect Mind, Iron Heart Focus, and Sapphire Nightmare blade(never prepared).

Feats: Exotic Wpn:bastard Sword 1, Power Attack B, Vital Recovery 3, Adaptive Style 6, Blind Fight B, Improved Initiatave B

His future plans are to buy his major bloodline with another bloodline level, a level of Swordsage, then take all 5 levels of master of 9.  The bloodline levels synergize VERY well with initiator classes, as well as providing 2 of the 5 required feats for Mo9, and giving an extra +2 bonus to concentration checks for those nifty diamond mind maneuvers.

His attack options are currently limited, since he only has 2 useful strike maneuvers.  But in the next 2 levels he'll be trading Steel Wind for Mithral Tornado, and adding Ruby Nightmare blade to his list.  At the mid range of 12-15th level he'll be gaining many extra maneuvers from swordsage and Mo9 which will give him a LOT of extra versatility.

He usually keeps Moment of perfect mind up instead of Iron Heart Focus since failed will saves are a fight ender, and he can spend a full round action to 're-load' Iron heart focus if he gets poisoned or diseased or what have you.

My DM has ruled that I 'can' use White raven tactics on myself, however I have only used it on other allies sofar, usually to raise their initiative so we act before the Bad guys.  It works quite well with my +7 initiative mod.

My strikes hit harder than the rest of the groups, but my 22 AC is lower than the 2 warforged (23 and 24) and especially the beasthide elite shifter druid with PHB2 shifting with his 27+ armor class.  However I have the best defense against mind affecting stuff with MoPM and a +13 concentration mod.


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