# Lost 05/09/07



## Banshee16 (May 10, 2007)

Ok, did anyone other than me notice the face of a man, sitting in the chair, when Benri was thrown against the wall?  Benri was thrown from right to left, backwards against the wall, so he was facing to the right.  But the camera cut right and showed someone for maybe 0.5 seconds, facing left.  Was that Jonah or Jordan or whatever his name was?

Did anyone record it so this can be checked?

I don't think Locke is dead.  If Mikhael can come back, and Locke can walk after being paralyzed, I'm not sure if a bullet would be enough to stop him.  And he's a pretty central character, so I don't think they'd end him so inconclusively.

Also, now we know what happened to the Dharma Initiative.  And that Roger or whatever his n ame is...the guy with the dark eyes, who gave Locke the file on Sawyer was an original.  And that the "natives" killed the DI folks.  But we also know there's something funky going on with lifespan there, because he was the same age there that he appears like 30 or 40 years later.

Banshee


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## Dubya (May 10, 2007)

I missed the first fifteen minutes or so of the show.  Can someone recap what happened up until the flashback where the teacher was talking about the volcano?

I thought I saw something but I wasn't for sure.  I think that there is something going on with the lifespan also.  Wasn't that one of the projects that the Dharma Initiative was working on?  Who are the Hostiles?  Didn't they say they were the natives of the island?  

Dubya


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## Jamdin (May 10, 2007)

His name was Jacob


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## LightPhoenix (May 10, 2007)

These are only my initial thoughts, but I thought I'd share.

Locke was completely awesome in this episode.  If Locke is truly deaders, which I doubt, this is a fine episode to go out on.  Unlike, say, everyone else that died, except for Boone.

Sayid and Sawyer, also awesome, and rational to boot.

Jack and Juliet?  All I can say if, wtf.  I'm all for Sayid and Sawyer offing Jack, Juliet, and Kate.  One can only hope.

The Dharma stuff was okay, but not really interesting enough for a whole flashback sequence, I don't think.

Jacob was a total cop-out, in my opinion.  I'm putting my vote on Jacob being the smoke monster, which is also the sand-like stuff they went over on their way there.

The episode was a mixed bag for me - good and bad don't mix to make average.  Hoping next week's will be better.


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## PeterGirvan (May 10, 2007)

Jacob could be seen sitting in the chair for a brief moment. (at least, I assume it was Jacob). 

Now what the heck is Jacob? Some type of psionic entity?

And I agree (hope!) that Locke will recover. 

It was also good to see Jack finally make some overture to the rest of the castaways. His reticence has been way too annoying.


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## LightPhoenix (May 10, 2007)

Dubya said:
			
		

> I missed the first fifteen minutes or so of the show.  Can someone recap what happened up until the flashback where the teacher was talking about the volcano?




This is from memory.

A woman, Emily, and her husband Roger are having a baby.  It looks kind of like the jungle.  The baby is born, but Emily starts bleeding out.  Roger carries Emily through the jungle, to a highway outside of Portland.  A hippie couple stops, but Emily dies right after asking Roger to name their son Benjamin.

Ben and Alpert have an arguement over the tape recorder, and go outside to talk with Tom.  Tom stares, as do the others, as Locke stumbles into the Others' camp with his father's body.

Roger and Ben are brought to the island to work for Dharma by the man who stopped earlier.  They see an orientation video as they go through "processing."  Roger Linus is assigned the title "Work Man," and has a hissy fit about being a janitor.  The hippie guy, on the other hand, is very nice to them.

(This next part may not be the scene that was next)

Mikhail comes running through the jungle, reaches the Others, demands they invade the Losties to get Naomi, Ben agrees.  Locke wants to see Jacob, Ben says no, Locke kicks Mikhail's butt, and it's decided they go to see Jacob.  Everyone else just stares are Locke's awesomeness.

Also, Sawyer gets Sayid, plays him the tape.  Kate sees them, sticks up for Jack, Sayid and Sawyer are totally awesome and basically tell her off.


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## Demmero (May 10, 2007)

Banshee16 said:
			
		

> Ok, did anyone other than me notice the face of a man, sitting in the chair, when Benri was thrown against the wall?




There was also a close-up shot of a very angry-looking eye (Sauron?   shortly thereafter.

I noticed that Richard Alpert seemed pretty close in age then-and-now; not sure if giving him a hippie haircut was maybe just the best they could do to make him look younger.  Since it looks like the Hostiles now run the island and the Dharma Initiative is kaput, it seems likely that Locke's blowing up the communications station will have an effect on the outside world...whoever's doing the Dharma food drops and such might look into the 'Hostile's attack on the place.

Also interesting is that Ben lied to the Hostiles about being born on the island; maybe they think he's a 'miracle baby' who somehow beat the long odds and was conceived and born on the island...something they apparently can't do.  Then Locke comes along--Mr. Spirituality--healed of paralysis by the island, and he becomes a threat to Ben's rule.

Ben breaks one of the Evil Overlord rules by telling Locke this before shooting him, however; that may come back to haunt him later.


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## David Howery (May 10, 2007)

Now, the writing on this episode was a vast improvement... we finally get some real answers, such as what happened to Dharma... but get more questions, naturally, like who are the Hostiles and where did they come from.

And Ben has somehow apparently conned Dharma into thinking the project is ongoing, because they are still getting food drops, power, and have connections on the mainland...


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## John Crichton (May 10, 2007)

Aside from enjoying the weird of this ep, I will say that I'm glad they are bring back a theme that has been brewing under the currents since the start of season one.  That is the eventual Jack vs. Locke showdown.  I originally thought that it would be the castaways vs. themselves and split into factions but it appears now that Locke is getting his own people and that Jack will have the majority of the Lostaways on his side.  

Also, I'll say that this is a nice bookend to last season's finale where Jack gives the knowing nod, like he's got a plan in mind.  Kate's still with the plan and it appears that Sawyer's dislike of Jack blinded him for a bit.  Will be interesting to see if it plays out that way.


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## John Crichton (May 10, 2007)

David Howery said:
			
		

> Now, the writing on this episode was a vast improvement... we finally get some real answers, such as what happened to Dharma... but get more questions, naturally, like who are the Hostiles and where did they come from.
> 
> And Ben has somehow apparently conned Dharma into thinking the project is ongoing, because they are still getting food drops, power, and have connections on the mainland...



 I wonder if Richard and his kin have four toes per foot...


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## Cthulhudrew (May 10, 2007)

Banshee16 said:
			
		

> Ok, did anyone other than me notice the face of a man, sitting in the chair, when Benri was thrown against the wall?




My friend and I both noticed the same thing and rewound to double check- there was definitely someone there, but you couldn't see more than part of its shirt and the profile of its hairline. From the hairline, it looked like Ben, but there is no way to know for sure (well, I suppose some really gifted person could screencap it and lighten it, and that might do something).


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## Cthulhudrew (May 10, 2007)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> Jacob was a total cop-out, in my opinion.  I'm putting my vote on Jacob being the smoke monster, which is also the sand-like stuff they went over on their way there.




Could be. My first thought (after the initial Quicksand? moment) was that it might be dynamite powder, pointing to some sinister plot of Rousseau's.


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## Cthulhudrew (May 10, 2007)

Demmero said:
			
		

> I noticed that Richard Alpert seemed pretty close in age then-and-now; not sure if giving him a hippie haircut was maybe just the best they could do to make him look younger.




Even if he was younger at the time, there's still something wonky going on. Ben was in (at most) his early teens when he encountered Richard, and he's currently in his late 40s/early 50s- Richard should be looking much more aged if the natural rules of time/age are going on on the island. Some kind of mystery there, that's for sure.

I'm really wondering how Ben got to his status of cult leader considering it appears the Others are much older than he is- I suppose it has something to do with his apparent psychic abilities (his communication with his mother/the island? and the like).


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (May 10, 2007)

The homage to Stephen King/Peter Straub's Black House was awesome.

I'm thinking that Jacob is a psychic manifestation of Ben's. That Ben wouldn't be one of the "special children" seems unlikely to me.

If Ben's mom can appear inside the sonic fence, I'm going to have to reconsider whether the smoke monster is all the ghosts we've been seeing all the time.


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## Hand of Evil (May 10, 2007)

You got to wonder about the castaways and their ability to see things and such, if that was important to The Others.  Locke was kickass in this one but then every one was.


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## Fast Learner (May 10, 2007)

There is indeed about 1/2 second of Jacob in the scene. Forehead and hair of a middle-aged person, maybe a bit younger. Flat-ish nose that has the characteristic bump of a nose that's been broken. Fairly-long hair. It looks, actually, like Terry O'Quinn, the actor who plays Locke.

Ah, just noticed they've got the screencap up at losteastereggs. Several great caps from the episode, actually.

Edited to add a link specifically to the screencaps of Jacob, as the main page link above will "expire," as it were, getting replaced with next week's caps once they're up.


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## Fast Learner (May 10, 2007)

Rather than editing again, here's a hdtv capture of the same shot. Since it's on imageshack, it may reach too many views at some point, so look while you can. 

Maybe not Locke (or Locke's twin?), hard to say.

Edited to attach the image, in case the link goes bad.


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## Hand of Evil (May 10, 2007)

That one screen shot look to show a big hole in Jacob's head!  I am of the impression that Ben has captured Jacob's spirit.

http://bp3.blogger.com/_RrObyQ3XzcY/RkKWtpsh6XI/AAAAAAAAFRE/CHJIyPT10d4/s1600-h/Image13.jpg


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## el-remmen (May 10, 2007)

COuld be Locke in a wig?   - But that migh be my imagination filling in for me.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (May 10, 2007)

It's nice to watch an episode of Lost that really kicks butt again.


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## Hand of Evil (May 10, 2007)

I kind of see Dennis Hopper in the image:


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## Arnwyn (May 10, 2007)

That was definitely a pretty good episode - though I did find it pretty disturbing. No question for me, I find Lost at it's best when it's actually answering some questions.

Locke kicked ass for sure - I will be very disappointed if he kicks the bucket, as I find him integral to the show. Jack, Juliet, and Kate, OTOH, continue to suck. Unlike Locke, I wouldn't mind if all three of them were removed from the show.

The Others/Hostiles continue to prove to me that they are entirely evil (and annoying), and must be eradicated.

Definitely something supernatural going on with the island, as it looks like the dead can communicate here or something - some part of the island's "unusual properties", as said by the dude in the Dharma intro video.

Some weird stuff:
What the heck did the Hostiles use to gas the Dharma people? Extremely virulent stuff, apparently. It also looks like the Hostiles are technologically advanced - gas masks, chemical weapons, and ways to get off the island (it was that original Hostile guy who was in the U.S. recruiting Juliet all those years later...).

Also, it looks like there's funky aging stuff happening on the island.

What the heck is Jacob? And why does he need "help"?


Neat.


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## Demmero (May 10, 2007)

Arnwyn said:
			
		

> Locke kicked ass for sure - I will be very disappointed if he kicks the bucket, as I find him integral to the show. Jack, Juliet, and Kate, OTOH, continue to suck. Unlike Locke, I wouldn't mind if all three of them were removed from the show.




Heh.  I feel pretty much the opposite.  Locke didn't kick ass--he just thought he was kicking some.  In the end, he's lying in a pit of corpses with a bullet in his chest because he thought he had the upper hand on Ben and turned his back on him.  Dumbass.

Jack--I used to like him a lot.  Now he bugs me.  I'll give him the benefit of the doubt--to a point--because I don't believe he could've turned into an Other in one week's time.  My guess is that he and Juliet have a plan to try to turn the tables on Ben somehow, and the fewer people who know about it the less likely Ben is to catch on.

Juliet--don't particularly like her, but I find her character interesting.  She knows Ben better than the Lostaways, so I figure that's why she's being extra sneaky/careful about switching sides and turning against him.  She's likely playing a very dangerous game matching wits with Ben, and she seems to know it.

Kate--I don't really get all the Kate hate that's going around.  I guess that it's probably because her character's become almost solely the love interest in the triangle with Jack and Sawyer.  Part of me cringed when she went to Jack with the secret about Naomi.  But you know what?  It makes a hell of a lot of sense.  Naomi had a tree branch rip through a lung, a Jack's a doctor.  I really don't get Sayid putting all his trust in a known Other (Mikhael) with limited medical training over Jack.

Also, kate did something that a lot of the Lostaways were blasted for earlier in the show--she said to hell with keeping secrets from one another.  Yeah, her blabbing was probably mostly motivated by wanting to get back into Jack's good graces, but on some levels it just makes good common sense.

Jack's reaction--thanks for telling me that secret, Kate...by the way, Juliet and I have our own secret that we WON'T be telling you--was a real slap in the face to her (or should be).  Maybe it'll put some of the old independent fire back into Kate's character if she can move on.  I hope so.


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## David Howery (May 10, 2007)

okay, so what's the time frame on this show's background?  Dharma was set up some time when the earliest PCs were available, so... early 80's?  Couldn't have been much before that.  And Ben was 10 or so when taken to the island?  But the Hostiles have apparently been there for some time.......


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## Mark CMG (May 10, 2007)

I thought it was volcanic ash.


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## Hand of Evil (May 10, 2007)

David Howery said:
			
		

> okay, so what's the time frame on this show's background?  Dharma was set up some time when the earliest PCs were available, so... early 80's?  Couldn't have been much before that.  And Ben was 10 or so when taken to the island?  But the Hostiles have apparently been there for some time.......



They are from the Black Roc.


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## Cthulhudrew (May 10, 2007)

Arnwyn said:
			
		

> What the heck did the Hostiles use to gas the Dharma people? Extremely virulent stuff, apparently. It also looks like the Hostiles are technologically advanced - gas masks, chemical weapons, and ways to get off the island (it was that original Hostile guy who was in the U.S. recruiting Juliet all those years later...).




Maybe they used Dharma equipment smuggled to them by Ben. We've gotten different descriptions of their technical ability (sometimes their equipment seems primitive- the medical stuff Jack saw- sometimes it seems more advanced. Up until now, they seem to be using Dharma stuff as well- living in their houses, island, etc.)



			
				Demmero said:
			
		

> Heh.  I feel pretty much the opposite.  Locke didn't kick ass--he just thought he was kicking some.  In the end, he's lying in a pit of corpses with a bullet in his chest because he thought he had the upper hand on Ben and turned his back on him.  Dumbass.




When we first saw the pit, and Ben talked about how he dumped the bodies there, I said to my friend, "Don't turn your back on him, John, or else he's gonna club you in the head and dump you in there too." Well, I was wrong about the club.


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## Cthulhudrew (May 10, 2007)

Hand of Evil said:
			
		

> They are from the Black Roc.




That would be trippy- maybe they are the surviving slaves and/or slavers? Good idea.


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## Banshee16 (May 10, 2007)

David Howery said:
			
		

> Now, the writing on this episode was a vast improvement... we finally get some real answers, such as what happened to Dharma... but get more questions, naturally, like who are the Hostiles and where did they come from.
> 
> And Ben has somehow apparently conned Dharma into thinking the project is ongoing, because they are still getting food drops, power, and have connections on the mainland...




I don't have a problem with this...

I like Question -> Answer -> Question

I hate Question.....

Banshee


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## Banshee16 (May 10, 2007)

PeterGirvan said:
			
		

> Jacob could be seen sitting in the chair for a brief moment. (at least, I assume it was Jacob).
> 
> Now what the heck is Jacob? Some type of psionic entity?
> 
> ...




Anyone have Tivo, who can provide a screen capture of Jacob or that eye?

Banshee


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## Banshee16 (May 10, 2007)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> My friend and I both noticed the same thing and rewound to double check- there was definitely someone there, but you couldn't see more than part of its shirt and the profile of its hairline. From the hairline, it looked like Ben, but there is no way to know for sure (well, I suppose some really gifted person could screencap it and lighten it, and that might do something).




What if.....what if the island has something to do with psychic projection....like how Walt had the ability to manifest stuff?

What if Jacob is simply a manifestation of Ben's mind/subconscious or whatever?  That could explain why he was invisible.  Ben gets a certain amount of control over the Others by being the moutpiece of Jacob.  What if Ben simply learned to manifest using the island's power, and Jacob is simply a form of his desire to control what's around him....hence this invisible friend with poltergeist-like abilities, who nobody else can see.

Banshee


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## Welverin (May 10, 2007)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> which is also the sand-like stuff they went over on their way there.




My first thought upon seeing that was of salt lines for keeping out/in hungry ghosts in Exalted. Jacob's apparitional nature only strengthens the connection in my mind.

I find it's becoming more and more clear that Ben hates Locke for (potentially) being what he's claimed/pretended to be for so long.


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## Fast Learner (May 10, 2007)

Banshee16 said:
			
		

> Anyone have Tivo, who can provide a screen capture of Jacob or that eye?



Just look earlier in the thread, I posted links (and attached a picture).


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## The Grumpy Celt (May 10, 2007)

Hrmm…. How did Locke learn about Jacob?



			
				 Demmero said:
			
		

> Ben breaks one of the Evil Overlord rules by telling Locke this before shooting him, however; that may come back to haunt him later.




Given Benry’s cruelty, bloody mindedness, capacity for lying and desire to keep people on the island, I think he sent Michael and Walt to their deaths. That is – in story, rather than out-of-story – why we’ve not seen them again and never will. Out of story it has to do with the actors, in story they are dead and possibly eaten by Dharma Brand Sharks.



			
				Arnwyn said:
			
		

> The Others/Hostiles continue to prove to me that they are entirely evil (and annoying), and must be eradicated.




I wasn’t clear on why the Others and the Initiative were so automatically diametrically opposed. That the Dharma people built and worked on the island is not quite enough reason for me to explain or justify a blood feud leading to mass murder.

And despite all the proverbial hand waving and mumbo jumbo, my theorizes and observations still stand. The Others are simply a sad and dangerous cult of personality surrounding Benry. He and they all are not currently doing good or righteous work, they are merely jerking people around and playing with lives like they are games, all for the sake of just doing it. There are pressing problems and issues that need to be dealt with and the like, but the Others are not actually grappling with any of that.



			
				Demmero said:
			
		

> I noticed that Richard Alpert seemed pretty close in age then-and-now…




I feel a bit vindicated – I did say that Richard was going behind Benry’s back in giving Locke the file on Sawyer and that Benry’s control was never absolute and was further slipping. Ha!



			
				Arnwyn said:
			
		

> …I will be very disappointed if he kicks the bucket, as I find him integral to the show.




It seems unlikely that Locke is dead. As for the pile of bodies, I wonder if they are related to the two bodies discovered in the caves back in the first season. Were “Adam and Eve” Dharma people?



			
				Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> The homage to Stephen King/Peter Straub's Black House was awesome.




What was the homage to _Bleak House_?


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## Welverin (May 10, 2007)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> Hrmm…. How did Locke learn about Jacob?




He didn't, he asked Ben for answers and Ben said Jacob was the man who could give them to him, not that it was quite so straight forward.



> Given Benry’s cruelty, bloody mindedness, capacity for lying and desire to keep people on the island, I think he sent Michael and Walt to their deaths. That is – in story, rather than out-of-story – why we’ve not seen them again and never will.




You shouldn't assume so much. [SBLOCK]I read something a while back where one of the EP's said that Michael and Wilt will be back on the show at some point.[/SBLOCK]




> I wasn’t clear on why the Others and the Initiative were so automatically diametrically opposed.




No such thing was stated or established in anyway, all we got were some events from Ben's perspective, how it got that way is yet to be defined. So your lack of clarity is not at all odd.



> It seems unlikely that Locke is dead. As for the pile of bodies, I wonder if they are related to the two bodies discovered in the caves back in the first season. Were “Adam and Eve” Dharma people?




We'll find out about that by the time the show ends, they were placed so people knew that the creators didn't make everything up as they went along, and did in fact have things planned out from the beginning.


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## Taelorn76 (May 11, 2007)

Hand of Evil said:
			
		

> I kind of see Dennis Hopper in the image:



You know I see that as well.


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## Taelorn76 (May 11, 2007)

Arnwyn said:
			
		

> Some weird stuff:
> What the heck did the Hostiles use to gas the Dharma people? Extremely virulent stuff, apparently. It also looks like the Hostiles are technologically advanced - gas masks, chemical weapons, and ways to get off the island (it was that original Hostile guy who was in the U.S. recruiting Juliet all those years later...).
> Neat.




I think they just took over th Dharma''s village and used the sub Dharma had to go back to the main land. I have a feeling corporate offices may not know that the hostiles took over.


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## Silver Moon (May 11, 2007)

David Howery said:
			
		

> And Ben has somehow apparently conned Dharma into thinking the project is ongoing, because they are still getting food drops, power, and have connections on the mainland...



No, only the station that had the giant electromagnet where Dharma folks hit the button every 108 minutes.


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## Mark CMG (May 11, 2007)

If you dig a hole to put bodies in, why not fill it back in when you are done?


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## Cthulhudrew (May 11, 2007)

Mark CMG said:
			
		

> If you dig a hole to put bodies in, why not fill it back in when you are done?




Because you never know when you might need to dump more bodies in it?


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## Mark CMG (May 11, 2007)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> Because you never know when you might need to dump more bodies in it?





There was about a twenty or thirty year lull, I think.


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## Hand of Evil (May 11, 2007)

Mark CMG said:
			
		

> If you dig a hole to put bodies in, why not fill it back in when you are done?



Because you did not dig the hole, you just dumped the bodies there.


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## Gab (May 11, 2007)

Two things I noticed when watching the show again last night:

1. In the beginning of the episode, when Richard comes into Ben's tent while Ben is holding the wooden doll, Ben says something like, _You do remember birthdays, don't you, Richard?_. A bit of foreshadowing I didn't catch the first time I watched the episode Wednesday.

2. When Ben is young, in school, and they are doing the volcano experiment, Annie (?) asks the teacher if that is what happened to the volcano on this island, ie. So there's a plot device that can be used if the writers need it; say, end the series by having the volcano explode and destroy the island, à la _L'Ile Mystérieuse_ (Jules Vernes).


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## Taelorn76 (May 11, 2007)

Silver Moon said:
			
		

> No, only the station that had the giant electromagnet where Dharma folks hit the button every 108 minutes.



Well,

That does explain why the hatch had Quarantine written on it


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## Taelorn76 (May 11, 2007)

Gab said:
			
		

> Two things I noticed when watching the show again last night:
> 
> 1. In the beginning of the episode, when Richard comes into Ben's tent while Ben is holding the wooden doll, Ben says something like, _You do remember birthdays, don't you, Richard?_. A bit of foreshadowing I didn't catch the first time I watched the episode Wednesday.




My wife caught that as well. 


Here is a theory. 

People on the island seem to have an extended life. So maybe the island's way to control the population is not let women carry to term.


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## ThirdWizard (May 11, 2007)

Re: Extended life span

Ben's father seemed to have aged normally.


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## Hand of Evil (May 11, 2007)

ThirdWizard said:
			
		

> Re: Extended life span
> 
> Ben's father seemed to have aged normally.



This may be due to the island accepting a person.  This could be why Locke was so special to the Others.


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## Atavar (May 11, 2007)

Mark CMG said:
			
		

> If you dig a hole to put bodies in, why not fill it back in when you are done?




Because a pile of dirt isn't as interesting to the audience? 

Also, I think that eye we see a glimpse of is Mikhail's missing eye.  IT'S ALIVE!!!

Later,

Atavar


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## Mistwell (May 11, 2007)

Jacob is almost certainly the smoke creature. The dust from the smoke creature (likely volcanic dust) is outside his hut.  And he himself is an invisible entity.  So, it seems when Jacob roams the island, he wears the ash.

And he's already met Locke, many episodes ago.


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## Mark CMG (May 11, 2007)

Atavar said:
			
		

> Because a pile of dirt isn't as interesting to the audience?





Exactly.  So why bother putting them into a clearly dug hole rather than just have it appear they were rolled into a natural ravine?  Just a case of either not thinking through something that could have _so_ easily been avoided *or* it actually is something important to have noted.  I wonder which one it will prove to be?


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## Fast Learner (May 11, 2007)

I noticed the same of the hole, and also that nothing is growing in it, unlike the way things would actually be in a jungle. Made me wonder whether that was significant or simply a matter of set dressing.


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## Cthulhudrew (May 11, 2007)

As Sigmund Freud would say- "Sometimes a hole is just a hole."


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## Taelorn76 (May 11, 2007)

ThirdWizard said:
			
		

> Re: Extended life span
> 
> Ben's father seemed to have aged normally.




Ben has aged as well. It could be only the original inhabitants (the hostiles) are ageless.


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## RigaMortus2 (May 12, 2007)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> If Ben's mom can appear inside the sonic fence, I'm going to have to reconsider whether the smoke monster is all the ghosts we've been seeing all the time.




Why?  The smoke creature was ground level when you see it chasing Kate and Juliette, so that is why it ran into the fence.  But I don't see why it can't just fly over it without any problem.  Heck, Kate climbed over it with no problem.


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## RigaMortus2 (May 12, 2007)

Hand of Evil said:
			
		

> I kind of see Dennis Hopper in the image:




I kind of see John Ratzenberger


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## Lhorgrim (May 12, 2007)

Now that you mention it, I've never seen Dennis Hopper and John Ratzenberger together at the same time.  Coincidence?


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## RigaMortus2 (May 12, 2007)

I wonder if they will ever explain or give a reason for this

http://www.longlostlist.net/listforum/geography/landmarks/blacksmoke.htm

Remember this back at the end of Season 1?  Is there a purpose to it?  Is there a connect to that and the smoke monster?  Is it just the others clever way of drawing out the lostaways?  Is it a lure to keep the real smoke monster away?  Did the others even have anything to do with it?  If you remember correctly, there were no footprints in the beach around that flame.


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## John Crichton (May 12, 2007)

RigaMortus2 said:
			
		

> I wonder if they will ever explain or give a reason for this
> 
> http://www.longlostlist.net/listforum/geography/landmarks/blacksmoke.htm
> 
> Remember this back at the end of Season 1?  Is there a purpose to it?  Is there a connect to that and the smoke monster?  Is it just the others clever way of drawing out the lostaways?  Is it a lure to keep the real smoke monster away?  Did the others even have anything to do with it?  If you remember correctly, there were no footprints in the beach around that flame.



 I chalked it up to a diversion by Rousseau to get the baby.  She is an excellent tracker and can easily cover where she has been.

:: shrugs ::


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## Cthulhudrew (May 13, 2007)

RigaMortus2 said:
			
		

> I kind of see John Ratzenberger




If we see Jacob dancing, we'll know for sure.


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## The Grumpy Celt (May 13, 2007)

Welverin said:
			
		

> ...I read something a while back where one of the EP's said that Michael and Wilt will be back on the show at some point.




I am aware of that, I am aware an offer was made. But the actor who played Walt (Malcolm David Kelley) is growing and aging at a normal rate, which is much faster than the time line of the show. The actor who played Michael (Harold Perrineau) has apparently turned down a chance to return to the show.  

So, as a way of explaining their disappearance, I think it will be revealed that Benry sent them to their deaths. That would be keeping with who and what Benry is as a man and a character.

I still want to know about the relationship between the Others and whatever force or group on the Mainland that keeps them supplied. If it is Dharma, then Dharma  is run by morons.


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## Fast Learner (May 13, 2007)

Though I agree that it's unlikely that Walt will be back for the very reason you mentioned, one possibility, anyway, would be in a vision of Desmond's, which could reveal something about what to do now.


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## RigaMortus2 (May 13, 2007)

They could bring Walt and Michael back w/o any problem.  We already know that there is some strange aging things going on on the island, so if he comes back older, I don't think it would be any more strange.  There is obviously something up with the time stream here, heh.


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## Hand of Evil (May 13, 2007)

One of the starnge things to me, is that the dharma group is still providing goods to the island.  This makes me think that they were all dharma, unless we are talking Howard Hughes thing here.


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## Taelorn76 (May 14, 2007)

Hand of Evil said:
			
		

> One of the starnge things to me, is that the dharma group is still providing goods to the island.  This makes me think that they were all dharma, unless we are talking Howard Hughes thing here.




I think Dharma doesn't realize that the Hostiles have killed off all the original Dharma group. Remember Richard recruited Juliet.


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## delericho (May 14, 2007)

Sad to say, my reaction to this episode was the same as Locke's on seeing the empty chair - time to call shenanigans and walk away. I'll watch to the end of the season, but unless they give me a compelling reason to stay beyond that point, I'm done.


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## Hand of Evil (May 14, 2007)

This season and the last few episodes have failed to boost the ratings, they have anounced an end date, so, maybe there will some clean up.


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## Felon (May 14, 2007)

Mark CMG said:
			
		

> Exactly.  So why bother putting them into a clearly dug hole rather than just have it appear they were rolled into a natural ravine?  Just a case of either not thinking through something that could have _so_ easily been avoided *or* it actually is something important to have noted.  I wonder which one it will prove to be?




Probably just a case of overthinking things through. There's no compelling reason to fill a hole in the middle of nowhere back in.

I enjoyed the episode, particularly seeing how the van Hurley found with the Shamballa tape in it came to be there. Or was that an 8-track?


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## Felon (May 14, 2007)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> Given Benry’s cruelty, bloody mindedness, capacity for lying and desire to keep people on the island, I think he sent Michael and Walt to their deaths.



Probably, but aren't we done with "Benry" by now? His name's pretty well-established by now.


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## Felon (May 14, 2007)

Hand of Evil said:
			
		

> This season and the last few episodes have failed to boost the ratings, they have anounced an end date, so, maybe there will some clean up.



It's still winning its ratings with the 18-49 demographic, so the ratings are hardly low. The show's just not the phenomenal success it once was.

That's over. We don't know everything, but we do know enough to know we had blown The Others up to be bigger boogeymen than they actually were. Bug-eyed Ben just isn't that great of an arch-villain. Also, many of the main characters' backstories are more-or-less complete now, enough to make viewers feel they have the answers they wanted.


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## Mark CMG (May 14, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> There's no compelling reason to fill a hole in the middle of nowhere back in.





My point being that there's no compelling reason to dig a hole in the middle of nowhere in the first place.  Tough to get heavy equipment out into the jungle so it would have had to been dug by hand.  It would have taken days and days.


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## Fast Learner (May 14, 2007)

Mark CMG said:
			
		

> My point being that there's no compelling reason to dig a hole in the middle of nowhere in the first place.  Tough to get heavy equipment out into the jungle so it would have had to been dug by hand.  It would have taken days and days.



Though I agree that the "digging it and not filling it in" thing is weird (maybe they had to deal with smokey all of a sudden?), it wouldn't take that long to dig. By myself, with lots of clay and rocks and junk to deal with, I've dug a 4'x4' hole 6' deep in 5 hours. With a half-dozen people digging and another several moving excess soil away, it could easily be dug in a day.


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## Mark CMG (May 14, 2007)

Fast Learner said:
			
		

> Though I agree that the "digging it and not filling it in" thing is weird (maybe they had to deal with smokey all of a sudden?), it wouldn't take that long to dig. By myself, with lots of clay and rocks and junk to deal with, I've dug a 4'x4' hole 6' deep in 5 hours. With a half-dozen people digging and another several moving excess soil away, it could easily be dug in a day.





That hole was significantly larger and the roots in a jungle that thick are not something to shrug off lightly.  Without heavy equipment, even with a dozen people, it would take days.  Of course, it's not unlikely they have plenty of explosives.


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## The Grumpy Celt (May 14, 2007)

Maybe Dharma dug the hole and the Others just used it. All of the instillations we've seen so far have been below ground, meaning before it was a structure it was a great big hole someone dug. Maybe it was part of a Dharma project that ended in mass murder.


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## The Grumpy Celt (May 14, 2007)

Hand of Evil said:
			
		

> ...unless we are talking Howard Hughes thing here.




I don't get this reference. What do you mean?


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## Mark CMG (May 14, 2007)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> Maybe Dharma dug the hole and the Others just used it. All of the instillations we've seen so far have been below ground, meaning before it was a structure it was a great big hole someone dug. Maybe it was part of a Dharma project that ended in mass murder.





That tracks.  Sharp thinking.


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## Felon (May 14, 2007)

Great. So we've achieved suspension of disbelief about digging a hole.


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## Mark CMG (May 14, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> Great. So we've achieved suspension of disbelief about digging a hole.





We give suspension of disbelief when the show comes on.  Story continuity is what was sought regarding the hole.


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## The Grumpy Celt (May 15, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> Great. So we've achieved suspension of disbelief about digging a hole.




You know what I have trouble with, what I can't suspend disbelief about?

Everyone's hair.

They all look to good.

Well, off subject a bit…

The next episode is about Charlie and he may or may not die in it – it remains to be seen. “"This job is going to end for everyone. I've achieved everything that I wanted to do. It's been a fantastic opportunity for me, and it's done exactly what I wanted it to do: distance me from playing a hobbit (in The Lord of the Rings) and have people in America know I can act,” said Dominic Monaghan.

The next day (i.e. it airs on May 17th) is a special called “Lost: The Answers.” This is a new title, as it was originally called “We Lost The Answers” and it was going to be an hour long apology.

The season finale is a two hour episode that centers on Jack. It airs May 23. One old face you will not be seeing is Harold Perrineau as Michael, who actually turned down an opportunity to return in the season finale. Source: MediaWeek


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## Fast Learner (May 15, 2007)

TV Guide pointed out this week that in 90 days Sun's hair has grown five inches, which is pretty impressive. Jack's, on the other hand, doesn't seem to have grown at all, but I suppose he could be cutting it regularly.


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## Dalerone (May 15, 2007)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> The season finale is a two hour episode that centers on Jack. It airs May 23. One old face you will not be seeing is Harold Perrineau as Michael, who actually turned down an opportunity to return in the season finale. Source: MediaWeek




It is a shame really, hopefully they can get him back before the series ends to tie up that loose end.  Other then that I think these last few episodes have been great.  Maybe Ben just has multiple personalities and that is who Jacob is.  That was my first thought.


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## DonTadow (May 15, 2007)

Dalerone said:
			
		

> It is a shame really, hopefully they can get him back before the series ends to tie up that loose end.  Other then that I think these last few episodes have been great.  Maybe Ben just has multiple personalities and that is who Jacob is.  That was my first thought.



Hey, did anyone see the latest ABC schedule. Lost isn't even on it. What's this crap in Lost's timeslot. 

When I read the article, it says that Lost will be a midseason replacement and they don't knowwhere it will be on the schedule. Talk about decreasing the brand even more. Network execs are idiots.


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## The Grumpy Celt (May 15, 2007)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> Hey, did anyone see the latest ABC schedule...




My understanding is that they intend to run all of next seasons episodes back to back in a row, with out any interruptions. They will still come once a week, but their won't be a mid-season hiatus the way they had this year. So maybe that is why it qualifies as a mid-season replacement.


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## IcedEarth81 (May 15, 2007)

Why is there such a big discussion about how the hole was dug, why it was dug, etc? Why does it matter? It was simply there to show what they did to the Dharma folks and a place for Ben to waylay Locke. Seriously, some of you are looking too hard for something to complain about regarding Lost.


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## DonTadow (May 15, 2007)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> My understanding is that they intend to run all of next seasons episodes back to back in a row, with out any interruptions. They will still come once a week, but their won't be a mid-season hiatus the way they had this year. So maybe that is why it qualifies as a mid-season replacement.



Thats what I thought, but they released the schedule and Lost isn't on it

http://apnews1.iwon.com/article/20070515/D8P4SRJG3.html


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## Sir Brennen (May 15, 2007)

Right. It's not on the _fall _schedule. It's coming back in January for it's non-interrupted run. Still on Wednesday nights, and probably back in it's 9/8 Central time slot.


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## Mark CMG (May 15, 2007)

IcedEarth81 said:
			
		

> Why is there such a big discussion about how the hole was dug, why it was dug, etc? Why does it matter? It was simply there to show what they did to the Dharma folks and a place for Ben to waylay Locke. Seriously, some of you are looking too hard for something to complain about regarding Lost.





Nope.  No one is actually complaining and the discussion is sort of over, since the TGC put forth a viable explanation.  The show is made up of little clues and anything that seems unusual or suspect deserves close scrutiny.  It is really the whole point to watching the show, IMO.  It is meant to be a mind puzzle, not simply an entertainment.  If someone is just watching the show and not trying to figure out the mystery behind it they are missing half the fun.


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## Fast Learner (May 17, 2007)

Because, honestly, there can never be enough discussion of the hole, a new pet theory: the hole is lined with something (say, lead) that prevents the island's healing powers from healing you. It would make perfect sense for the hostilies to throw the Dharma bodies in such a hole.


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