# Experiences with Basic Fantasy RPG



## Remathilis (Jun 8, 2009)

I'm going to shock some of you...

When my 3.5 game ends later this year, I may NOT be going to 4e. The is building opposition (rather than the initial apathy) to it, and I'm not sure I'm willing to sacrifice my players (and friends) for my choice of game system. 

While (heavily modified) 3.5 and/or Pathfinder remain options, of late my eye has wandered toward Basic Fantasy RPG (Basic Fantasy Role-Playing Game). It reminds me of my days playing BECMI (Rules Cyclopedia) D&D with its simple mechanics and general tone, but also feels modern (or at least improved upon) in certain mechanical areas (no level limits, race/class split, upward AC) and has room to incorporate some of my old 2e/RC house rules (crits, non-weapon profs) as well as a plethora of expansion material (the Dungeoneer's Almanac and playtest classes seem full of crunchy goodness to pillage etc)

What I'm looking for is some road experience with the system. Is there any areas where the system lacks (I'm especially interested in the lack of high level spells for wizard/clerics and how that affects high-level play, as well as thief skill ranks seeming awfully low) and how easy is it to convert other D&D material to it (easy by appearance, but are there pit traps to be wary?)

Anyone who can comment on how well it plays (esp at higher levels) and converts (at any level) as well as anything else, feel free to add.


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## Shades of Green (Jun 8, 2009)

I've recently converted from D&D 3.0E to BFRPG. So far I've gotten to levels 6-7 and it plays like a charm. The best thing about it is the ease of prep, taking far less time than D&D 3.0E and being quite enjoyable. The game itself runs very smoothly as it is relatively rules-light, so once you know the rules well you don't have to thumb through too many pages during play.

The rules combine old-school simplicity with a few new-school convenient features (especially AC going up rather than down) and play very well. Regarding high-level spells, while the main BFRPG book only has six levels of spells and the (free) Old Dungeoneer's Almanac supplement has level 7 spells, adding more spell levels should be easy; BFRPG is very moddable.

Regarding the thief skills, they should be modified according to the situation's difficulty; low-level thieves should usually try to overcome low-grade locks and sneak in favorable conditions; attempting to deal with better locks or less sneak-friendly conditions will be a challenge.

One thing that you should keep in mind is that BFRPG combat is quite abstract (especially in comparison to 3E/4E) and thus a lot of DM and player creativity and narrative are needed to spice it up.


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## S'mon (Jun 8, 2009)

Humans seem underpowered - I'm not sure the 20% XP bonus is enough of an advantage.


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## ruemere (Jun 8, 2009)

Try Savage Worlds. Recent Explorer's Edition reads like d20 with much, much more convenient resolution mechanics, easy to grasp rules and furious action.

Regards,
Ruemere


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## Solomoriah (Jul 20, 2009)

S'mon said:


> Humans seem underpowered - I'm not sure the 20% XP bonus is enough of an advantage.



10% actually.  The beauty of it is, it's just a number.  If you don't like it, change it.


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## Mythmere1 (Jul 20, 2009)

Excellent game. Another hidden benefit - it's compatible with all the Swords & Wizardry modules, it's compatible with all the Labyrinth Lord modules. It's compatible with all the Moldvay Basic modules (need to flip the AC, though). There's a huge body of materials for it.

(obviously, I somewhat prefer Swords & Wizardry, but since I wrote it, I'm about as biased as you can get on that).

If you're looking at BFRPG and it looks right, then grab it. It holds up, and you'll find that the free-form approach lets you create awesome campaigns up to whatever level you want.

(the amount of playtesting on BFRPG is mind-boggling - it has gone on for YEARS at DF).


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## Spinachcat (Jul 21, 2009)

I play both 4e and retro D&D.    They are both great fun and offer different play experiences for both the GM and players.  

The Nice Thing about Basic Fantasy, Labyrinth Lord, OSRIC, AD&D 1e, 2e, C&C and the great and mighty glory known as Swords & Wizardry is that they are all 90% compatible so whatever was written for one system can easily be used for any of the others with very minor tweaking. 

But the Best Thing is how fun and easy these old school games are to customize to whatever fantasy you desire.   Of the D&D clones, I use Swords & Wizardry as my basic toolkit.   From there, I change, tweak, add, subract and do whatever I feel is best to create the "D&D" that I desire.   The Do-It-Yourself philosophy of the Old Schol model is tremendous fun, especially in the internet age.

Don't forget to check out Knockspell magazine and Fight On! magazine!

And since I pimp Mazes & Minotaurs on almost any thread about Old School RPGs, here's the link to my favorite "retro" game.   
M&M


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## danbuter1 (Jul 21, 2009)

I really like BFRPG. I do think Thief skills could use a slight bump at early levels. I also use the optional "similar to 2e" way of increasing them. Humans work out ok, as they level faster than everyone else.


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## Maliki (Jul 21, 2009)

BFRPG is one of the best systems I have seen.  The core book is very basic and rules light, while the supplements add a ton of depth to the game. Everything is pretty modular, anything you don't like is easy to change. 

Most older editions of D&D convert well enough with a flip of he AC. Later editions need to be toned down a bit, but still can be done.


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## smootrk (Jul 21, 2009)

BFRPG is my game of choice nowadays.  I have written material that has become supplements for the game also.  While it plays 'old school', it really is a good system where one can incorporate anything - truly anything one likes from any edition.. with ease.  And after DMing for it, I cannot comprehend going back to 3.x or 4 again... I might play the new stuff, but the prep time for 3.x burned me out.

Has anyone mentioned the fact that the PDFs are free, and the books are sold through LULU without profit?


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## HywayWolf (Jul 21, 2009)

I am not an experienced DM or Player so my comments may not be as useful as the ones already recieved, but BFRPG is my game of choice.  I played mostly B/X back in the 80's and stopped playing long before 2E appeared, so you can imagine my shock when I returned to D&D in 2007.  I didn't even recognize the game.  I wanted to play, but the knowledge base required to play 3.5 seemed very daunting. Looking back at my game of choice, B/X, I liked what I saw, but the inconsistencies seemed more glaring in my elder years than they did when I was young and stupid.  BFRPG was what I found to bridge what I thought was missing from "old school".  

It plays great with lots of room for imaginative thinking on both the DM and players parts.  It allows for more than the handful of character/classes B/X allowed and it made combat much easier.


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## kitsune9 (Jul 21, 2009)

Remathilis said:


> I'm going to shock some of you...
> 
> When my 3.5 game ends later this year, I may NOT be going to 4e. The is building opposition (rather than the initial apathy) to it, and I'm not sure I'm willing to sacrifice my players (and friends) for my choice of game system.
> 
> ...




I looked at this game a while back. Way too low magic for me. I tend to run campaigns from 1st to 20th+ level with 9th level spells and all that.


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## pdiddy (Jul 21, 2009)

BFRPG is a great game. I think you hit the nail on the head when you say it has the feel and playstyle of the old basic/expert games but it also includes what some would consider modern sensibilities.

There is also a great sword & sorcery supplement at:
http://www.retroroleplaying.com/files/BF-Swords-and-Sorcery-Supplement.pdf


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## JeffB (Jul 21, 2009)

pdiddy said:


> BFRPG is a great game. I think you hit the nail on the head when you say it has the feel and playstyle of the old basic/expert games but it also includes what some would consider modern sensibilities.




Yup. Thats pretty much it. It takes a few things from D20 that I prefer (e.g. Negative levels, race and class separation among others) and tacks them onto the MCM B/X rules. I have not run any BFRPG games (wasn't crunchy enuff for my old gaming group), but it seems to me that it would run just as well as the system it is primarily based on (and MCM B/X is  my fave version of the TSR produced D&D game, so I'm a fan).

Make sure you pick up the supplemental rules materials off the BFRPG website as well- some great additions in there.

I'd also highly reccomend Spellcraft & Swordplay if you are looking for a retro D&D style game with more modern mechanics/sensibilities.


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## Baron Opal (Jul 21, 2009)

kitsune9 said:


> I looked at this game a while back. Way too low magic for me. I tend to run campaigns from 1st to 20th+ level with 9th level spells and all that.




Check out Labarynth Lord. It goes all the way to elev.., er, _twenty_.


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## Solomoriah (Jul 21, 2009)

So does BFRPG.  What kitsune9 means is that the game doesn't have 7th, 8th, or 9th level spells (though 7th level spells are added in the Almanack).

The main reason those spells are missing is that nobody has come up with a really interesting list of spells for the 8th and 9th levels.  The omission of the 7th level spells was for consistency with my "coverage target" game.


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## Raven Crowking (Jul 21, 2009)

Chris,

You did a very fine job with the game.

RC


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## Remathilis (Jul 22, 2009)

Ah, this thread is bittersweet for me now...

I bought the BFRPG book. I printed the Almanack, made character sheets, converted one of my favorite basic D&D module, and got ready to run a game. This Friday!

No one was interested. I actually had players willing to take a few weeks off game rather than "go backwards" from 3e. 

So I boxed up my BFRPG stuff for now, and intend that ONE DAY I shall run my BFRPG game; probably not with those losers.

Anyone in the Metro Detroit area looking for a BFRPG game; I'll make arrangements.


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## Solomoriah (Jul 22, 2009)

Raven Crowking said:


> You did a very fine job with the game.



Thanks!

I visited your site... you have a few images that don't display.  Just thought you might like to know.

Oh, and your RPG system looks interesting.  A bit too "advanced" for me, but definitely interesting.


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## Solomoriah (Jul 22, 2009)

Remathilis said:


> No one was interested. I actually had players willing to take a few weeks off game rather than "go backwards" from 3e.



Well, that sucks.  Long term players?  Friends, even?  Heck, I'd play about anything once if a friend asked (as long as it wasn't too freaky).



Remathilis said:


> Anyone in the Metro Detroit area looking for a BFRPG game; I'll make arrangements.




Have you checked on Dragonsfoot yet?  Post in the "Looking for Games/Gamers" forum.  Given your location, I'd be surprised if there are really no old-school players in your area.

Too bad you're so far away... I never get to play, only GM.


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## Raven Crowking (Jul 22, 2009)

Solomoriah said:


> Thanks!




Any time.  Brilliant stuff, and much that I modified for my own game.  



> I visited your site... you have a few images that don't display.  Just thought you might like to know.




Thanks.  When I have the August release done, I'll try to fix them.



> Oh, and your RPG system looks interesting.  A bit too "advanced" for me, but definitely interesting.




Any adventures done for my system should adapt pretty easily to yours, though, and vice versa.  The different specifics should be easy to ignore.  I am working on an RCFG megadungeon that shouldn't take more than 20 minutes per level to adapt to BF when done.....mostly just cutting & pasting stat blocks.  I'd be happy to send you a copy when completed (perhaps around Christmas.......).


RC


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## Korgoth (Jul 22, 2009)

Remathilis said:


> Ah, this thread is bittersweet for me now...
> 
> I bought the BFRPG book. I printed the Almanack, made character sheets, converted one of my favorite basic D&D module, and got ready to run a game. This Friday!
> 
> ...




Ouch! That sucks, man. I'm sorry to hear it.

Hopefully they didn't accuse you of "nostalgia".


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## Oni (Jul 22, 2009)

Korgoth said:


> Ouch! That sucks, man. I'm sorry to hear it.
> 
> Hopefully they didn't accuse you of "nostalgia".




What the heck is wrong with nostalgia?  I go back to things fairly often for no better reason than to enjoy the simple pleasure of nostalgia.  Growing tired of it being turned into a dirty word both by those that try to use as an insult and the hypersensitive who let them.


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## Korgoth (Jul 22, 2009)

Oni said:


> What the heck is wrong with nostalgia?  I go back to things fairly often for no better reason than to enjoy the simple pleasure of nostalgia.  Growing tired of it being turned into a dirty word both by those that try to use as an insult and the hypersensitive who let them.




"Hypersensitive"? No, I just don't like bullshoot.

"Nostalgia" means "The thing you like objectively sucks and you're irrational."

But hey, if you like being insulted I'm not going to stop you.


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## ExploderWizard (Jul 23, 2009)

Remathilis said:


> Ah, this thread is bittersweet for me now...
> 
> I bought the BFRPG book. I printed the Almanack, made character sheets, converted one of my favorite basic D&D module, and got ready to run a game. This Friday!
> 
> ...




 Hang on a moment. Nobody wants to "go backwards" but everyone hates 4E? Do any of these turkeys have the stones to run a game themselves? If the answer is no, then it's time to find new friends.


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## Oni (Jul 23, 2009)

Korgoth said:


> "Nostalgia" means "The thing you like objectively sucks and you're irrational."




That's pretty much the kind of thing I'm talking about right there.



> But hey, if you like being insulted I'm not going to stop you.




Insulted?  No.  Mildly annoyed?  Yes. 

Like I said before, there's a small group that seems to want to turn nostalgia into a weaponized buzzword, and another small group that wants to use it to take umbrage at the drop of a hat, and both are being largely unreasonable.


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## Solomoriah (Jul 23, 2009)

"Nostalgia" isn't a bad word to me.  Your mileage may vary.


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## Remathilis (Jul 23, 2009)

Korgoth said:


> Ouch! That sucks, man. I'm sorry to hear it.
> 
> Hopefully they didn't accuse you of "nostalgia".




Heh. I SOLD it partially on the "nostalgia" kicker! As one player put it "Its nostalgic for you (since you started in BD&D) but not for us (since we started in 2e)." Another said "Well, if we're going to go back, why don't we just dust off our 2e material."



ExploderWizard said:


> Hang on a moment. Nobody wants to "go backwards" but everyone hates 4E? Do any of these turkeys have the stones to run a game themselves? If the answer is no, then it's time to find new friends.




Ha! Good point!

The general consensus (excluding one diehard 4e fan and myself) is 3.x is fine enough, they shouldn't have messed with it. Anything earlier brings up ghosts best left forgotten (differing XP tables, 5 save slots, thief % skills) but 4e basically went too far in changing everything to become hyper-balanced and thus "bland". 

(This is not an EW: these are my players thoughts, not mine. Don't argue with me, these don't represent my views)

One is a DM (3e). One DMed before (but would rather play; he'd also like to play 4e). 

Otherwise I agree with you; its a very "closed-minded" view on things, but short of kicking everyone out to run a game I'm not even sure would last long (it might NOT be what I wanted after all) I'm kinda in a bind. 



Solomoriah said:


> "Nostalgia" isn't a bad word to me.  Your mileage may vary.




I like it. I accept it. Its not my only reason to looking into the game, but I don't deny its a selling point.


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## Nikosandros (Jul 23, 2009)

Solomoriah said:


> "Nostalgia" isn't a bad word to me.  Your mileage may vary.



Nostalgia isn't a bad word at all and is also a rather common feeling. People sometimes take umbrage at the fact that the word is used in a context like "_It's only because of an irrational feeling of nostalgia that you play old editions of D&D even though they clearly suck and the new editions are so much better._"


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## Nikosandros (Jul 23, 2009)

Remathilis said:


> Otherwise I agree with you; its a very "closed-minded" view on things, but short of kicking everyone out to run a game I'm not even sure would last long (it might NOT be what I wanted after all) I'm kinda in a bind.



Are the players unwilling to even play a single trial game?

If so, yes it's rather close minded. On the other hand, if they've tried and would rather play 3e, this is something I can respect. I personally prefer a variety of games, but I can't begrudge someone for wanting to stick with a single game that they like best.


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## JeffB (Jul 23, 2009)

I had the same issue with my old group- They wanted all the crunch of 3E/4E characters but none of the complication during gameplay(????). 3E was a no-go for me and had been since 2002. We had tried C&C and that was a no-go for me AND them. 4E was going pretty well, but they still wanted something less crunchy for combat ( I don't even run alot of combat! None of them could ever articulate exactly what they wanted out of a game system, but I'm thinking they really should be playing something besides D&D)

After running a one-shot weekend marathon of S&W with my original grade school group and having a total freaking blast, I figured I would try something similar with the (then) current group but a bit more crunchy. I bought BFRPG, the group said  "no thanks". Not crunchy enuff, wonky old school D&D. Schedules fell apart, none of them wanted to run anything themselves, and so the group disbanded.


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## Solomoriah (Jul 23, 2009)

Wow, bummer.  I find myself wondering just what game they WOULD like.


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## ExploderWizard (Jul 23, 2009)

Nikosandros said:


> Are the players unwilling to even play a single trial game?
> 
> If so, yes it's rather close minded. On the other hand, if they've tried and would rather play 3e, this is something I can respect. I personally prefer a variety of games, but I can't begrudge someone for wanting to stick with a single game that they like best.




Preferring a certain game is all well and good but RH is in a situation with some very selfish players. 3.X is arguably the edition that requires the most prep and effort to run. RH has a group that only wants to play this edition and wants him to be the one to run it all.  

From a common courtesy perspective this is just plain wrong. If these people are actual friends rather than just casual gaming buddies it's even worse.


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## HywayWolf (Jul 23, 2009)

For you folks that want to run BFRPG, but can't find FTF players, if you decide to run an online voice chat BFRPG send me an email.  I'd love to join in.


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## Remathilis (Jul 23, 2009)

Nikosandros said:


> Are the players unwilling to even play a single trial game?
> 
> If so, yes it's rather close minded. On the other hand, if they've tried and would rather play 3e, this is something I can respect. I personally prefer a variety of games, but I can't begrudge someone for wanting to stick with a single game that they like best.




Ok, I've been running an Eberron game for a long time now, and the group is now 11th-12th level. That's a lot of hard prep. I have 4 players. 
1.) Didn't want to play. Downloaded/read the rules, and thought them too anachronistic. He was my sit-out. Dislikes 4e also, though he has given it a very valid trial with it. 
2.) Didn't want to play, but would so "for my sake." Would much rather end the Eberron game to play 4e, an opinion no one else agrees with. 
3.) Another "would do it for my sake" player. Dislikes 4e, but didn't play it much either.
4.) New player, Eberron was his first D&D game. No official opinion, but was kinda bending between "Not interested" and "for my sake". 

So out of 4 players, one wasn't coming and three was only coming because they felt it was their gamer duty. All except for player 2 would rather play 3e. 



Solomoriah said:


> Wow, bummer.  I find myself wondering just what game they WOULD like.




One likes the new hawtness of 4e. Two like 3e's wealth of options. One doesn't have an opinion, but would rather not learn the game over again after just getting the hang of it now. 



ExploderWizard said:


> Preferring a certain game is all well and good but RH is in a situation with some very selfish players. 3.X is arguably the edition that requires the most prep and effort to run. RH has a group that only wants to play this edition and wants him to be the one to run it all.
> 
> From a common courtesy perspective this is just plain wrong. If these people are actual friends rather than just casual gaming buddies it's even worse.




The compromise we worked out was to set down the high level 3.5 game for a more module-driven low level 3.5 game. My stipulation was tight control on char-gen; pretty much PHB + limited options (vs. my normal anything goes) to simulate the feel of Basic, in spirit if not in rules. 

And yes, these are some of my closest friends. I had two of them apologize to me for being jerks about not wanting to play (the two who would do it "for my sake") but the one who threatened to sit it out hasn't said boo yet.

Tomorrow's game night. We shall see what happens then.


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## Grimstaff (Jul 23, 2009)

Remathilis said:


> No one was interested. I actually had players willing to take a few weeks off game rather than "go backwards" from 3e.
> 
> So I boxed up my BFRPG stuff for now, and intend that ONE DAY I shall run my BFRPG game; probably not with those losers.




Eek! I'm hard-pressed to think of anything ruder than this, I suppose none of them ever put in the time to prep a game...

It'd be one thing to try it out for a couple of sessions and *then* vote on continuing or not. Good luck finding some more considerate players in the future.


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## Doug McCrae (Jul 23, 2009)

JeffB said:


> They wanted all the crunch of 3E/4E characters but none of the complication during gameplay(????).



One word:

Mutants & Masterminds


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## Mallus (Jul 23, 2009)

Doug McCrae said:


> One word:
> 
> Mutants & Masterminds



Two more: Warriors and Warlocks --it's not _necessary_, but it's a pretty great as sourcebooks go.

Two weeks ago I ran the 1st session of my old World of CITY 3e campaign converted to M&M/W&W. This was a 13th level 3e game w/4 full-progression spellcasters. It went swimmingly. So much easier to prep for/run that 3e.

M&M isn't a rules-lite game be any means. But it's a whole lot more transparent that 3e, not to mention easier to customize. If your players just can't quit the crunch, check it out.


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## Nai_Calus (Jul 24, 2009)

Very lame for you. :< I'm in the same boat, I was running 3.5 for my first time DMing(Which thankfully just died because we couldn't make everyone's schedules work), and sick of it. I wanted to go either 4e or BF, but everyone in my group refuses to play anything but 3.5. 4e 'sucks' (None of them have read the rules), and BF 'doesn't have enough options'(None of them have read the rules for that either). It's ridiculous. :-/

It's perhaps just as well, I'd currently rather be playing, since running 3.5 put me off DMing for now, heh. Drove me nuts. Maybe I should see if I can find a group doing it online.

(Dearest kitten I love you, but stay off the keyboard.)


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## Spinachcat (Jul 25, 2009)

Play with the three friends who will "do it for your sake" and then make sure you put extra effort into making the sessions extra awesome.   BF is easy to houserule, so if there is something they absolutely loved about 3e, weave that into the BF game.   Wow them with the fun and they'll be really glad they played "for your sake"

As for Mister Poopy Pants, I suspect he'll change his mind when hears the others are having a blast playing BF.   

Good luck!


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