# I have Demon Queen's Enclave (P2) and Manual of the Planes



## Jack99 (Dec 5, 2008)

Will be back in about 90 minutes to answer questions; I just need to feed the girls first. I haven't actually read the books yet (just picked them up), but will do my best if anyone is interested in a few tidbits.


Cheers


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## Rechan (Dec 5, 2008)

Monsters, monsters monsters. What monsters are in Demon Web (The DM booklet should have the new ones). 
I'd like to know about the Devils in the MotP: The 4 devils, what levels/roles are they, and what the devils _are_ would help (What's a barbed devil? A pain devil? Etc). 

Demon Web: Does the adventure feel particularly Paragon-y? Is there RP potential, or is it dungeoncrawl-tastic? How does it hold up vs. the others? Is it as good as Trollhaunt?

MotP: So, do the chapters on Shadowfell/Feywild give you some good foundation to run in them, or is it just some superfluious description but nothing concrete? Are the details _good_?


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## Rechan (Dec 5, 2008)

And here, I will get this out of the way:

Total monster list for those who need to get minis together.


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## GMforPowergamers (Dec 5, 2008)

I have a few small quastions, but first thank you...

MoP:
1) how big of a section is the spelljammer section?

2) can we get strad basics...role level elite solo?

Demon Web
1) Is there a set up for the next mod?

2) how much of the adventure uses winter haven

3) Any new magic items


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## doppelganger (Dec 5, 2008)

Rechan said:


> And here, I will get this out of the way:
> 
> Total monster list for those who need to get minis together.




I am also very interested in this information.


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## Fallen Seraph (Dec 5, 2008)

P2:

-From the images released it appears there is at least somewhat of a sci-fi bent. How much of that is there, and how much would you say could be ripped for other usage?

MoTP:

-Could you give a brief synopsis of the Paragon Paths?
-Same with Sigil?
-What is the art like?


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## Rechan (Dec 5, 2008)

GMforPowergamers said:


> 2) can we get strad basics...role level elite solo?



Strahd is in Open Grave, not MotP.


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## Rechan (Dec 5, 2008)

Fallen Seraph said:


> -From the images released it appears there is at least somewhat of a sci-fi bent. How much of that is there, and how much would you say could be ripped for other usage?



Could you explain that? I looked at the images and didn't get any sci fi vibe at all.


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## Fallen Seraph (Dec 5, 2008)

Rechan said:


> Could you explain that? I looked at the images and didn't get any sci fi vibe at all.



The three monsters (illith, grell, forgot the name of the other) in the glass tubes in blue liquid. The semi-bio-organic/robotic armour those two guards seem to have. They just seem sci-fi to me.


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## mac1504 (Dec 5, 2008)

Fallen Seraph said:


> The semi-bio-organic/robotic armour those two guards seem to have. They just seem sci-fi to me.




I believe those are supposed to be mezzoloth/mezzodemons?


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## Shemeska (Dec 5, 2008)

Are the Keepers the same ones I did the ecology for in Dragon? What fluff is there for them?

For the Canoloth, are the yugoloths as a race mentioned?

What is said about Pluton and Carceri (yes it irks me that 'loths were made demons because there was supposedly no place for them, and then two of their main haunts show up as Astral domains). And is there a gehenna pastiche present?

The description of Sigil... does it make any attempt to hold to the 2e/3e metaplot, or does it backtrack in any ways. Ie is Alisohn Nilesia mentioned as Factol of the Mercykillers.

And the most important question of all: is my namesake mentioned as the most awesome person in Sigil? And if so, how do they spell her name?


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## Sir Robilar (Dec 5, 2008)

What are the descriptions of the Shadowfell and the Feywild like? I mean, how long are they, how detailed, are encounters part of them? Maps of Shadowfell cities or other locales?

Thanks!


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## Vayden (Dec 5, 2008)

Most importantly, where did you get it a week and a half early, so that I can do the same?


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## bording (Dec 5, 2008)

I'd really like to see the details of the Create Teleportation Circle ritual.


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## JeffB (Dec 5, 2008)

Isle of Dread? How much does it line up with X1? Is it more..err...fantastical? (being in the feywild)

Or is this version of the Isle of Dread something completely different?


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## Jack99 (Dec 5, 2008)

Got a bit side-tracked (wife), will post as fast as I can digest the stuff...


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## Jack99 (Dec 5, 2008)

Rechan said:


> Monsters, monsters monsters. What monsters are in Demon Web (The DM booklet should have the new ones).



There is a bunch of old monsters with new levels or a twist, but these are the brand new monsters.
[sblock=New monsters]
Ghoul Eyebiter, level 16 controller (leader)
Web Golem Grappler, level 13 elite controller
Web Golem Thresher, level 14 elite solider
Chwidencha, level 13 brute
Fithrichen, level 12 controller
Mithrenda, level 11 skirmisher
Cave Widow, level 14 skirmisher
Husk Spider, level 14 elite brute
Lolth’s Brutal Swarm, level 17 soldier
Yochlol Tempter, level 17 controller
[/sblock]



> I'd like to know about the Devils in the MotP: The 4 devils, what levels/roles are they, and what the devils _are_ would help (What's a barbed devil? A pain devil? Etc).



Graz'zt: level 32 solo controller
Dispater: level 28 solo controller (leader)
Baphomet: level 28 solo brute

Barbed devil: defenders of infernal fortresses or elite bodyguards, name from spiked body (level 18 soldier or skirmisher)
Brazen devil: named after being permanently encased in hellforged brass armor, elite guards of Asmodeus' palace (level 28 soldier)
Pain devil: merc's, named after their ability to inflict pain.. (level 8 solider or level 11 controller)
Storm Devil: the artillery of the nine hells (level 23 artillery)



> Demon Web: Does the adventure feel particularly Paragon-y? Is there RP potential, or is it dungeoncrawl-tastic? How does it hold up vs. the others? Is it as good as Trollhaunt?



Enter the drow city that is under assault of an army of undead coming from a realm in the shadowfell, then enter said realm to stop the soon to be newest exarch of Orcus, while risking to actually make him exarch? I would say yes on the Paragon feel. 

The adventure is pretty freeform, there are lots of options and ways to resolve certain parts of the adventure. Basically we are presented a good number of interesting NPC’s, with varying motives, and it is largely up to the players what to do with the information. Or they can just kill everything, of course.

Regarding the quality, and this is just from a quick scan to list the monsters and get a feeling, I am gonna go out on a limb and say that I am getter a better impression about it than I had from Trollhaunt, which I until now thought of as the best one.


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## Rechan (Dec 5, 2008)

For a book about battlin' undead, it sure has a lot of Drow enemies.



> Pain devil: merc's, named after their ability to inflict pain.. (level 8 solider or level 11 controller)



Well, I can possibly use this, and use it like, _soon_. But, good.



> Enter the drow city that is under assault of an army of undead coming from a realm in the shadowfell



Wow. That's... interesting, that the PCs are going into a Drow city to _save_ it.

Thanks, Jack!


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## Jack99 (Dec 5, 2008)

GMforPowergamers said:


> 1) Is there a set up for the next mod?



Not that I noticed


> 2) how much of the adventure uses winter haven



One of the hooks involves Winterhaven. Else the time will be spend in the Underdark and in the Shadowfell
3) Any new magic items[/QUOTE]
[sblock=New items]
Death Weapon, level 13+
Drow House Insignia, level 12+
Mask of the Matriarch, level 18
Nightbringer (artifact, paragon level)[/sblock]



Fallen Seraph said:


> P2:
> 
> -From the images released it appears there is at least somewhat of a sci-fi bent. How much of that is there, and how much would you say could be ripped for other usage?



 No sci-fi feel here at all.




> -Could you give a brief synopsis of the Paragon Paths?



Blade of Cendriane: eladrin ranger path, experts at feystepping and dualwielding longswords, defenders of the remains of an ancient empire.

Doomguard Marauder: fighter path. A nihilistic society of mercenaries that believe that the universe is sliding towards destruction, and that everything eventually comes to an end.

Gatecrasher: rogue trained in arcana path. Rogue that rocks the planes (sounds weird, but tbh, so did the PP when I read it..

Knight of Celestia: paladin path. Icon of virtue, championing the causes of Mt Celestia

Malec-Keth Janissary: Swordmage path. Elite products of the tower of Malec-keth, a war-magic academy in the City of Brass.

Planeshifter: Warlock or Wizard path. Has extensive knowledge of the planes, loves travelling. Can cast portal in combat!

Shadow Captain: warlord path. A hero seeking power in the darkness, the lost souls and spirits.

Soul Guide: Cleric Path. Guardian of the dead. Undead hater



> -Same with Sigil?



A plane onto itself, some say it is a tiny reflection of all that is, everything that has been and everything that will be.
Ruled by mysterious Lady of Pain, armed with mazes, and still keeping deities, demon princes etc out of Sigil
Still has 6 wards
Still has a lot of portals
etc

It's been more than 8 years since I sold my PS collection (yeah, big mistake, I know), so memory is quite fuzzy about the details, but in general, it sounded familiar.



> -What is the art like?



 Average mostly, although some pieces are really awesome.



Vayden said:


> Most importantly, where did you get it a week and a half early, so that I can do the same?



In Denmark 



bording said:


> I'd really like to see the details of the Create Teleportation Circle ritual.



 Level 15 ritual, can make a teleport circle that you can use to travel to. Lasts 24 hours, but can be extended by spending a healing surge. Keep it up for a year and a day, and it becomes permanent.


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## Jack99 (Dec 5, 2008)

Rechan said:


> Wow. That's... interesting, that the PCs are going into a Drow city to _save_ it.




I am not sure that's what I said


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## Rechan (Dec 5, 2008)

Jack99 said:


> I am not sure that's what I said



If they're not saving it, then why stop the undead?


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## Jack99 (Dec 5, 2008)

Shemeska said:


> Are the Keepers the same ones I did the ecology for in Dragon? What fluff is there for them?



I do not recall the ecology you wrote, but the keepers are now eerie custodians of the Shadowfell's city of Gloomwrought.  They act on the behest of an unknown master, but their agenda is secret, although related to death. Seeing a Keeper outside of the Shadowfell is an ill omen of immediate death. It disolves into inky black pool when killed.



> For the Canoloth, are the yugoloths as a race mentioned?



Nope. They are demons.



> What is said about Pluton and Carceri (yes it irks me that 'loths were made demons because there was supposedly no place for them, and then two of their main haunts show up as Astral domains). And is there a gehenna pastiche present?



Carceri is a well-hidden dominion. A prison plane, created to imprison a primordial creature the gods couldn-t destroy.

Pluton is a forgotten dominion, once the domain of Nerull (ie where the souls of the dead went), until he lost most of his power to what has become the Raven Queen. Some souls still come here.



> The description of Sigil... does it make any attempt to hold to the 2e/3e metaplot, or does it backtrack in any ways. Ie is Alisohn Nilesia mentioned as Factol of the Mercykillers.



 I will need more info, sorry, as mentioned earlier, my recollection of PS lore is really bad. But neither Alisohn nor the Mercykillers are mentioned.



> And the most important question of all: is my namesake mentioned as the most awesome person in Sigil? And if so, how do they spell her name?



She is mentioned yeah, along with Alluvius Ruskin, Rule-of-Three and Vocar the Disobedient, as some of the "Faces of Sigil". She is spelled Shemeshka.


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## Jack99 (Dec 5, 2008)

Rechan said:


> If they're not saving it, then why stop the undead?




Well, there is a way to "win" without saving the drow town. But not stopping the undead would be a bad idea, for the world at large.


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## Scribble (Dec 5, 2008)

Rechan said:


> If they're not saving it, then why stop the undead?




Enemy of my bigger enemy is my friend... until bigger enemy is dead and I can go back to hatin on my first enemy.


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## Jack99 (Dec 5, 2008)

JeffB said:


> Isle of Dread? How much does it line up with X1? Is it more..err...fantastical? (being in the feywild)
> 
> Or is this version of the Isle of Dread something completely different?



Sorry, never had X1.

Isle of Dread is a tropical island that worldfalls constantly (ie passes over from Feywild to the Real World). Lots of savage beasts, ancient yuan-ti temple, and people from different moments in history inhabit the isle. Oh there is also a thin tower of crystal rising from one of the central mountains.



Rechan said:


> MotP: So, do the chapters on Shadowfell/Feywild give you some good foundation to run in them, or is it just some superfluious description but nothing concrete? Are the details _good_?




Well, it does help, and it's nice to get an overview of what races there are in the two planes, and how to interact. And of course the locations do a lot as well, to help understanding these two "new" places.

TBH, if there was a whole book coming out, it would help more. 30 pages (for the two planes) isn't much when there is so much to cover, but it's a good base.


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## thundershot (Dec 5, 2008)

So Isle of Dread is a demiplane now? Hmm.... I take it no Rakasta?

How much space is dedicated to the Spelljammers?




Chris


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## Jack99 (Dec 5, 2008)

thundershot said:


> So Isle of Dread is a demiplane now? Hmm.... I take it no Rakasta?



 Not really a demiplane. It's part of the Feywild, but the whole isle worldfalls into the mortal realms at times. Just as some eladrin cities do.




> How much space is dedicated to the Spelljammers?



 Just the mention of spellingjamming vesels, used to travel around the Astral Sea. (at least that's the only mention I have seen). There is also the stats for a Spelljammer.
[/QUOTE]


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## Shemeska (Dec 6, 2008)

Jack99 said:


> I do not recall the ecology you wrote, but the keepers are now eerie custodians of the Shadowfell's city of Gloomwrought.  They act on the behest of an unknown master, but their agenda is secret, although related to death. Seeing a Keeper outside of the Shadowfell is an ill omen of immediate death. It disolves into inky black pool when killed.




Yeah, the same critters. Sounds like the diverged pretty far on them however. Oh well.



> She is mentioned yeah, along with Alluvius Ruskin, Rule-of-Three and Vocar the Disobedient, as some of the "Faces of Sigil". She is spelled Shemeshka.




Well I'll applaud them on this one note: they actually read some of the source material then beyond the 3e PlHB subchapter on Sigil, because Alluvius is a bit outside of the norm. Vocar the Disobedient seems to be new. That's an interesting mixture (if quirky since they're not the most powerful by any means, but they're interesting ones certainly). But oddly, no Factols listed there. Rhys of the Transcendant Order was probably the most powerful and influential person in Sigil, so it's odd to not see her listed, unless they intended to downplay the Factions.

Interesting.


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## Shemeska (Dec 6, 2008)

And btw, Jack, I appreciate you taking the time to answer questions. Thank you 

What do they say about Moil?


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## Fallen Seraph (Dec 6, 2008)

Shemeska said:


> And btw, Jack, I appreciate you taking the time to answer questions. Thank you



Here, here.

Besides, the base stats for the Bladeling is there anything else? Or is it the same as the rest of MM races?

I saw on the other thread mention of how the Great Wheel is redone for 4e. While I never really liked the Great Wheel still be neat to here how they redid it.


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## Jack99 (Dec 6, 2008)

Shemeska said:


> Well I'll applaud them on this one note: they actually read some of the source material then beyond the 3e PlHB subchapter on Sigil, because Alluvius is a bit outside of the norm. Vocar the Disobedient seems to be new. That's an interesting mixture (if quirky since they're not the most powerful by any means, but they're interesting ones certainly). But oddly, no Factols listed there. Rhys of the Transcendant Order was probably the most powerful and influential person in Sigil, so it's odd to not see her listed, unless they intended to downplay the Factions.
> 
> Interesting.



Well, it's only 5 pages. But based on those, the Factions are either non-existant or very down-played. There is only one authority, and that's the Lady of Pain. No police-force, except some ill-organized citizen group called the Sons of Mercy, who have no official power. That's not how I recall it to be, or what? 



Shemeska said:


> And btw, Jack, I appreciate you taking the time to answer questions. Thank you



 No worries, I just hope I answer most correctly and do not miss something obvious.


> What do they say about Moil?



 A city that revered Orcus, then Pelor, which naturally made Orcus quite cranky. He tossed it into the Shadowfell, where it is slowly sinking into a sea of necromantic energy. So naturally, it has been (and is) a local attraction point for undead, including such illustrious ones as Acererak.



Fallen Seraph said:


> Besides, the base stats for the Bladeling is there anything else? Or is it the same as the rest of MM races?




Just base stats, the racial power and a racial feat with the corresponding racial power.

Anyway, almost 2 AM here, so time to hit the sack.


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## Shemeska (Dec 6, 2008)

Jack99 said:


> Well, it's only 5 pages. But based on those, the Factions are either non-existant or very down-played. There is only one authority, and that's the Lady of Pain. No police-force, except some ill-organized citizen group called the Sons of Mercy, who have no official power. That's not how I recall it to be, or what?




They're taking a rather loose post Faction War approach it seems. The Sons of Mercy were one of the two factions (along with the Sodkillers) that originally merged to form the Mercykillers. During the Faction War, the Mercykillers splintered back into those two groups, with the Sons of Mercy setting themselves up as a well intentioned but overly idealistic police force in the FW's aftermath.




> A city that revered Orcus, then Pelor, which naturally made Orcus quite cranky. He tossed it into the Shadowfell, where it is slowly sinking into a sea of necromantic energy. So naturally, it has been (and is) a local attraction point for undead, including such illustrious ones as Acererak.




Pretty much the same as it was previously detailed in RttToH and Dragon, except for saying they turned to Pelor. That's a bit odd. And they stuck it in the Shadowfell, whereas previously it was a demiplane on the edge of (and slowly being subsumed into?) the Negative Energy Plane.


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## Shroomy (Dec 6, 2008)

Shemeska said:


> Pretty much the same as it was previously detailed in RttToH and Dragon, except for saying they turned to Pelor. That's a bit odd. And they stuck it in the Shadowfell, whereas previously it was a demiplane on the edge of (and slowly being subsumed into?) the Negative Energy Plane.




That makes sense given the 4e cosmology since the Shadowfell incorporates some of the traits of the Negative Energy Plane.

My question is how does the book treat fey desmenes and the domains of dread?


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## TarionzCousin (Dec 6, 2008)

There are nine pages on the Nine Hells. Can you give us an overview?

Likewise, I would like a summary of the City of Brass, the Abyss, and the Astral plane stuff. 

Is Gloomwrought actually gloomy?


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## M.L. Martin (Dec 6, 2008)

Shemeska said:


> Vocar the Disobedient seems to be new.




   Hmm...I knew the name sounded familiar, and I found a reference to a "Vocar the Obedient" in _Domains of Dread_, p. 115, as a 16th-level priest and the secret leader of Vecna's cult in Kas's domain of Tovag. Any connection?


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## Serendipity (Dec 6, 2008)

Matthew L. Martin said:


> Hmm...I knew the name sounded familiar, and I found a reference to a "Vocar the Obedient" in _Domains of Dread_, p. 115, as a 16th-level priest and the secret leader of Vecna's cult in Kas's domain of Tovag. Any connection?




:: is having really bad flashbacks to Die Vecna Die!  ::


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## TarionzCousin (Dec 6, 2008)

Speaking of the Abyss, is there any mention of Red Shroud and/or Broken Reach?


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## Shemeska (Dec 6, 2008)

Matthew L. Martin said:


> Hmm...I knew the name sounded familiar, and I found a reference to a "Vocar the Obedient" in _Domains of Dread_, p. 115, as a 16th-level priest and the secret leader of Vecna's cult in Kas's domain of Tovag. Any connection?




While I like Ravenloft, I'm not nearly as keen on its material, but it sounds like you're onto something there. Nice catch 

And I could deal with a Vecnite priest in Sigil.


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## mach1.9pants (Dec 6, 2008)

Jack99 said:
			
		

> Level 15 ritual, can make a teleport circle that you can use to travel to. Lasts 24 hours, but can be extended by spending a healing surge. Keep it up for a year and a day, and it becomes permanent.



Cool, that is the first question I asked CS when I go the books, something that really should have been in the PHB IMO


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## fba827 (Dec 6, 2008)

You guys are starting to mention a bit of spoiler-ish comments regarding the adventure module.

While I will personally not play it (our group doesn't do modules, though we may harvest out ideas on occasion), you may want to consider that someone else might.   So either edit the title or first post to say "spoilers" or else put up some spoiler tags to hide it  (sblock and /sblock)

that said, hopefully only the DMs of groups are in here to read about the module in the first place  (though they may be here to also see what was said about Manual of the Planes).


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## Jack99 (Dec 6, 2008)

Matthew L. Martin said:


> Hmm...I knew the name sounded familiar, and I found a reference to a "Vocar the Obedient" in _Domains of Dread_, p. 115, as a 16th-level priest and the secret leader of Vecna's cult in Kas's domain of Tovag. Any connection?




Yep. That's the guy. Later he is promoted to Exarch, but has since lost that status. However, being an ex-exarch (can't believe I just wrote that) of the god of secret, makes him very interesting to quite a few people.



TarionzCousin said:


> Speaking of the Abyss, is there any mention of Red Shroud and/or Broken Reach?
> 
> Didn't catch any.


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## jensun (Dec 6, 2008)

Shemeska said:


> Pretty much the same as it was previously detailed in RttToH and Dragon, except for saying they turned to Pelor. That's a bit odd. And they stuck it in the Shadowfell, whereas previously it was a demiplane on the edge of (and slowly being subsumed into?) the Negative Energy Plane.



While it has been a long time since I read RttToH wasnt Moil cursed by Orcus because they started worshipping a sun god?


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## Jack99 (Dec 6, 2008)

Shroomy said:


> My question is how does the book treat fey desmenes and the domains of dread?



Fey demenes are areas (some small, some large) that attune themselves to the most powerful creature living in that area.  Likewise with domains, except they have the twist that you cannot just exit them, without slaying the dark lord (or breaking his curse etc)who has a lot of control over them, as opposed to fey demenes, who “act” independently. Cool stuff IMO.


TarionzCousin said:


> There are nine pages on the Nine Hells. Can you give us an overview?



The Nine Hells is a dominion floating in the Astral Sea. It’s  also a planet, so when you breach the veil from the Astral Sea, you plummet to the surface, unless you enter at the correct spot. Then it describes the Nine Hells and their Lords. Pretty standard stuff, following the prior editions as far as I can tell.



> Likewise, I would like a summary of the City of Brass, the Abyss, and the Astral plane stuff.



City of Brass was pretty much covered in the excerpt. 

The Abyss is made of layers, floating pieces of terrain caught in a downward spiral. The Abyss is full of demons (surprise!) and powerful demons can get take control of a layer (or parts thereof) and bend it to its will.
We get a paragraph about The Plain of a Thousand Portals (top layer), the Abysm (Demogorgon’s layer), Azzagrat (Graz’zt’s 3 layers), The Demonweb (Lolth’s layer), Thanatos (Orcus’ layer), Twelvetrees (a place where some angels got tricked) and the Endless Maze (Baphomet’s layer)

The Astral Sea is a space-sea that binds the dominions together. I am not quite sure what you want to know, any chance you could be more specific? I believe the preview had a list of the dominions, so that would be a waste to type them all out again. It has been one of the battlegrounds of the bloodwar, and githyanki are one of the races living here.



> Is Gloomwrought actually gloomy?



Despite its name, Gloomwrought is described as one of the brightest spots in the Shadowfell.


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## Jack99 (Dec 6, 2008)

Rechan said:


> Demon Web: Does the adventure feel particularly Paragon-y? Is there RP potential, or is it dungeoncrawl-tastic? How does it hold up vs. the others? Is it as good as Trollhaunt?




Having read it cover to cover, I must say that it rocks. As I say in my blog's mini-reviews, it's by far the best adventure ever produced by WotC. Included blog for people who do not like to click on links in sig.

[sblock=short review of DQE (spoilers)]
The heroes find themselves (depending on which hook you use) heading to a drow settlement in the Underdark in order to stop a greater evil brewing. An rebellious drow has been lured to the dark side (as if Lolth doesn’t qualify as the dark side already) by Orcus. The drow, now a vampire, has taken over a domain in the Shadowfell which used to be ruled by an exarch of Orcus. From there, it has launched an attack on the drow settlement, breaching it defences. 

So when the players arrive, they find a town-battlefield, infested by undead and demons. And drows, of course. The goal might be to stop the nefarious plans of the Orcus worshipping vampire-drow, but how do you do that. Do you ally with the lone drow necromancer, with the failed drow commander that thinks of himself as dead man walking, or do you see out the matron mother in the temple of Lolth, and strike a deal with the most unholy of all. Or maybe you just plow through everything. That would of course be a pity. Once an alliance has formed, how do you proceed to enter the realm of Orcus? There is also a personification of the plane that has its own agenda, and an artefact that doesn’t quite want what everyone assumes it wants.
The adventure is choking full of interesting encounters, awesome settings, meaningful choices, cool application of skill challenges and interesting NPC’s. 

DQE (P2) is by miles the best adventure WotC has ever produced. In fact, I will go so far as to say that it is probably one of the best adventures made for D&D in many years. Buy now!
Rating:******
[/sblock]

It definitely feels paragon-ly - much more than Trollhaunt.

[sblock]Seriously, if you run this well, your players will never trust any NPC in your campaigns again. (if they still do )[/sblock]


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## Shroomy (Dec 6, 2008)

Jack99 said:


> Fey demenes are areas (some small, some large) that attune themselves to the most powerful creature living in that area.  Likewise with domains, except they have the twist that you cannot just exit them, without slaying the dark lord (or breaking his curse etc)who has a lot of control over them, as opposed to fey demenes, who “act” independently. Cool stuff IMO.




Does the book given some example desmenes and domains?  If so, could you provide a brief description?


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## Shroomy (Dec 6, 2008)

Jack99 said:


> Having read it cover to cover, I must say that it rocks. As I say in my blog's mini-reviews, it's by far the best adventure ever produced by WotC. Included blog for people who do not like to click on links in sig.
> 
> [sblock=short review of DQE (spoilers)]
> The heroes find themselves (depending on which hook you use) heading to a drow settlement in the Underdark in order to stop a greater evil brewing. An rebellious drow has been lured to the dark side (as if Lolth doesn’t qualify as the dark side already) by Orcus. The drow, now a vampire, has taken over a domain in the Shadowfell which used to be ruled by an exarch of Orcus. From there, it has launched an attack on the drow settlement, breaching it defences.
> ...




Wow, I'm so stoked for this adventure, and I loved H2, H3, and P1!


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## Rechan (Dec 6, 2008)

P1 was the first 4e module I wanted to run wholesale (rather than farm for encounters/monsters/maps) so wow, that's a good vote of confidence!

Although, I think an Orcus/Lolth schism plot would be more intriguing than that. An issue of "Pick the lesser evil" like in Return to Castle Ravenloft.


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## Jack99 (Dec 6, 2008)

Shroomy said:


> Does the book given some example desmenes and domains?  If so, could you provide a brief description?




Not really. They mention that desmenes usually happen where ley lines cross. They mention it could be as small as hut or a tower, or it could be the area around the eladrin king's castle, causing storm clouds to appear when he is in a foul mood.

No real examples of Domains, but there is one described in Dragon, but I suspect that you are very well aware of that 



> Although, I think an Orcus/Lolth schism plot would be more intriguing than that. An issue of "Pick the lesser evil" like in Return to Castle Ravenloft.



I agree. It's just pretty much a given, which is the lesser evil in this case.


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## TarionzCousin (Dec 6, 2008)

Jack99 said:
			
		

> City of Brass was pretty much covered in the excerpt.



What excerpt?  

Thanks for the great info, Jack99. I appreciate it.

Edit: I found the excerpt here.


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## Derulbaskul (Dec 7, 2008)

Jack99 said:


> (snip) Enter the drow city that is under assault of an army of undead coming from a realm in the shadowfell, then enter said realm to stop the soon to be newest exarch of Orcus, while risking to actually make him exarch? (snip)






Rechan said:


> (snip)Although, I think an Orcus/Lolth schism plot would be more intriguing than that. (snip)




It really does read a bit too much like 3E's _City of the Spider Queen_. Perhaps a little more creative effort should have been expended to get past a conflict between the _spider drow_ and the _undead drow_? I just hope it reads and plays better that _CotSQ_.


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## Michele Carter (Dec 7, 2008)

Shemeska said:


> Well I'll applaud them on this one note: they actually read some of the source material then beyond the 3e PlHB subchapter on Sigil, because Alluvius is a bit outside of the norm. Vocar the Disobedient seems to be new. That's an interesting mixture (if quirky since they're not the most powerful by any means, but they're interesting ones certainly).




Heh. Well, since it's Sunday and I'm procrastinating on the work I've got to do today: Those are four characters I suggested to James for the Sigil writeup. Shemeshka, Rule-of-Three, and Alluvius are personal favorites. I also thought it'd be interesting to include an ex-exarch of Vecna, and James was the one who remembered Vocar and adapted him perfectly. If we'd had more space, I would've liked to have seen Estavan, Zadara, and a half-dozen more old friends.


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## Fallen Seraph (Dec 7, 2008)

Well... Michele, you could always introduce those old friends if I don't know Sigil got expanded, perhaps as part of some manner of setting. Maybe go by the name Planescape, hint, hint *nudge, nudge*


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## Cadfan (Dec 7, 2008)

What "themes" are there for the shadowfell?  I ask out of interest regarding the not-yet-written "shadow" power source.


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## demonsquidgod (Dec 7, 2008)

Is there any info on the Far Realms, or adventuring in them? Beyond just that it's freaky and monsters come from it.


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## Shemeska (Dec 7, 2008)

WotC_Miko said:


> Heh. Well, since it's Sunday and I'm procrastinating on the work I've got to do today: Those are four characters I suggested to James for the Sigil writeup. Shemeshka, Rule-of-Three, and Alluvius are personal favorites. I also thought it'd be interesting to include an ex-exarch of Vecna, and James was the one who remembered Vocar and adapted him perfectly. If we'd had more space, I would've liked to have seen Estavan, Zadara, and a half-dozen more old friends.










 You're awesome Michelle.


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## Jack99 (Dec 8, 2008)

Cadfan said:


> What "themes" are there for the shadowfell?  I ask out of interest regarding the not-yet-written "shadow" power source.



Do not compute.


demonsquidgod said:


> Is there any info on the Far Realms, or adventuring in them? Beyond just that it's freaky and monsters come from it.



 Not a lot. There are a few examples of theories on how the Far Realms look, and how the Far Realms influence on the mortal world.


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## Shroomy (Dec 8, 2008)

Jack99 said:


> The Astral Sea is a space-sea that binds the dominions together. I am not quite sure what you want to know, any chance you could be more specific? I believe the preview had a list of the dominions, so that would be a waste to type them all out again. It has been one of the battlegrounds of the bloodwar, and githyanki are one of the races living here.




Can you describe the Astral Sea as a "space-sea."  Exactly how does that work.  Do you sail through some parts and fly through others, or is it a sea with dominions hovering over it, etc.  Also, how exactly has the Bloodwar been characterized in 4e?


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## Shemeska (Dec 8, 2008)

One last question for you Jack:

Since the book apparently lists my namesake the Marauder in the list of notable people in Sigil, how do they actually list her? Do they give a species listing or class etc like the little abbreviated stats they had next to names during 3.x? I ask mostly because well, yugoloths don't really exist in 4e, and she was an arcanaloth. I'm just wondering how they're going to work that in.


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## Jack99 (Dec 9, 2008)

Shemeska said:


> One last question for you Jack:
> 
> Since the book apparently lists my namesake the Marauder in the list of notable people in Sigil, how do they actually list her? Do they give a species listing or class etc like the little abbreviated stats they had next to names during 3.x? I ask mostly because well, yugoloths don't really exist in 4e, and she was an arcanaloth. I'm just wondering how they're going to work that in.




You've undergone a racial change


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## TarionzCousin (Dec 9, 2008)

Shemeska said:


> One last question for you Jack:
> 
> Since the book apparently lists my namesake the Marauder in the list of notable people in Sigil, how do they actually list her? Do they give a species listing or class etc like the little abbreviated stats they had next to names during 3.x? I ask mostly because well, yugoloths don't really exist in 4e, and she was an arcanaloth. I'm just wondering how they're going to work that in.






Jack99 said:


> You've undergone a racial change



First, gender. Now, race. You've got issues.


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## Shemeska (Dec 9, 2008)

Jack99 said:


> You've undergone a racial change




But from arcanaloth to what?


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## Shemeska (Dec 9, 2008)

TarionzCousin said:


> First, gender. Now, race. You've got issues.




Apparently! First there was the world's most awesome typo leading to "D&D's first cross-dressing arcanaloth" and now a species change too!


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## Jack99 (Dec 9, 2008)

Shemeska said:


> But from arcanaloth to what?




Raavasta!


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## Fallen Seraph (Dec 9, 2008)

Jack99 said:


> Raavasta!



Maybe I am just being forgetful. But can you refresh my memory what that is?


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## Jack99 (Dec 9, 2008)

Fallen Seraph said:


> Maybe I am just being forgetful. But can you refresh my memory what that is?




Rumor has it that Ravaasta's were once demons called Arcanoloths, but they got booted out of the Abyss for being to conniving. They are a race of dealmakers and plotters (and merchants!) that sell their services to anyone, aiming for profit and chaos.

Sounds fun to me.


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## Shroomy (Dec 10, 2008)

Jack99 said:


> Rumor has it that Ravaasta's were once demons called Arcanoloths, but they got booted out of the Abyss for being to conniving. They are a race of dealmakers and plotters (and merchants!) that sell their services to anyone, aiming for profit and chaos.
> 
> Sounds fun to me.




So what are their powers like?

On a related note, ravaasta is a new D&D term, correct?  I can't find any references to it anywhere else.


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## Jack99 (Dec 10, 2008)

Shroomy said:


> So what are their powers like?
> 
> On a related note, ravaasta is a new D&D term, correct?  I can't find any references to it anywhere else.




I think they are new, yes, I do not recall seeing the name before. 

Power-wise, they some very interesting stuff, amongst other a charm power called bind, that gives the victim the choice between being dominated or getting some ongoing psychic damage. They also get another power that enables the Raavasta to redirect attacks to a creature it is affected by the bind power.


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## TarionzCousin (Dec 12, 2008)

Is there anything else you want to share about the Manual of the Plains? 

What is your favorite location in the book?

Favorite monster?

Favorite Paragon Path?

Do ships sail IN or ON the Astral Sea?

What is the coolest thing about the Feywild?

What is the coolest thing about the Shadowfell?

What is the weirdest part of an Astral Domain?


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## Knightfall (Dec 12, 2008)

Jack99 said:


> Raavasta!



Hmm, I like that.


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## Jack99 (Dec 12, 2008)

TarionzCousin said:


> What is your favorite location in the book?



 I think I am in love with the Feywild - otherwise, I was always a huge fan of Sigil



> Favorite monster?



There aren't that many, Grazz't is just nasty.



> Favorite Paragon Path?



/shrug



> Do ships sail IN or ON the Astral Sea?



In



> What is the coolest thing about the Feywild?



Court of Stars, and the desmene



> What is the coolest thing about the Shadowfell?



Domains



> What is the weirdest part of an Astral Domain?



I wouldn't call them weird. Now, the Far Realms sound like they would hit a 16 on a 1-10 weird-o-meter.


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## Rechan (Dec 12, 2008)

> Court of Stars, and the desmene



What's cool about desmenes?


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Dec 12, 2008)

Jack99 said:


> I think I am in love with the Feywild - otherwise, I was always a huge fan of Sigil
> 
> There aren't that many, Grazz't is just nasty.
> 
> ...



You certainly mean 16_i_?


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## avin (Dec 12, 2008)

Raavasta? 

Appearance stays the same? DMs using 4E who wants Yugoloths back just rename it to Arcanoloth... hope there's finally a mini for it!

About what the factions are more represented, Doomguards and Mercykillers have one thing in common: they have miniatures of it. Expect Harmonium in the near future.


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## Jhaelen (Dec 12, 2008)

How useful is the battlemap poster in P2? Is it versatile enough to be reused for other encounters than the ones in the adventure?

The great town/citygate map in P1 was a major reason I decided to get the module...


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## TarionzCousin (Dec 12, 2008)

Jack99 said:


> Court of Stars, and the desmene



Is the Court of Stars radically different from 3E? Why is it so cool?

Jack99, thanks for all this info. I really appreciate it. You've just passed Jack37 on the "Best Jack List."


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## Kobold Avenger (Dec 12, 2008)

Who are some of the named Archfey of the Court of Stars?

And what's the Shadowfell equivalent of the Archfey, are they the Dark Lords?

What do they have on the Anomalous Planes like the Far Realm and the Plane of Dreams?


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## Jack99 (Dec 12, 2008)

avin said:


> Raavasta?
> 
> Appearance stays the same? DMs using 4E who wants Yugoloths back just rename it to Arcanoloth... hope there's finally a mini for it!




Foxheaded humanoids who can change shape at will


Jhaelen said:


> How useful is the battlemap poster in P2? Is it versatile enough to be reused for other encounters than the ones in the adventure?
> 
> The great town/citygate map in P1 was a major reason I decided to get the module...



I can't say that I agree with your reasoning, but on a 1-10 versatility scale I am guessing it's about a 3. More like a 7 if you use it only for drow cities. (there is a big altar of Lolth on it)



TarionzCousin said:


> Is the Court of Stars radically different from 3E? Why is it so cool?



I just like it a lot. Reading about it reminds me of a mixture of the court of the French Kings and the Game of the Tsurani Lords (Feist), with all the deceptions, backstabbing etc, just on steroids. IMO a perfect fit for the mischievous fey.


> Jack99, thanks for all this info. I really appreciate it. You've just passed Jack37 on the "Best Jack List."




Giev XP!
(Just kidding, I am only happy to be able to help, for once. It's rare that we get scoops over here)


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## Jack99 (Dec 12, 2008)

Kobold Avenger said:


> Who are some of the named Archfey of the Court of Stars?



Tiandra the Summer Queen, The Prince of Frost, Green Lord Oran, Scamander, Cat Lord, Monkey King, Baba Yaga, Hyrsam the Satyr Prince are some of those mentioned. The first three each get a paragraph.



> And what's the Shadowfell equivalent of the Archfey, are they the Dark Lords?



I guess. It's not state explicitly.



> What do they have on the Anomalous Planes like the Far Realm and the Plane of Dreams?



Not much. Mostly trying to convey their weirdness (they each barely get a page), although the Plane of Dreams does come with some pointers as to who and what uses it regularly, and why.


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## Kobold Avenger (Dec 12, 2008)

Now that's amusing that they have the Monkey King (Sun Wu Kong in Chinese, Son Goku in Japanese) of Chinese Mythology and Journey to the West among one of the Archfey.

I was under the impression they were going to have Titania and Oberron, made famous by Shakespeare as the monarchs of the Fey, at least as they mentioned it in Worlds & Monsters.


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## avin (Dec 12, 2008)

Kobold Avenger said:


> Now that's amusing that they have the Monkey King (Sun Wu Kong in Chinese, Son Goku in Japanese) of Chinese Mythology and Journey to the West among one of the Archfey.
> 
> I was under the impression they were going to have Titania and Oberron, made famous by Shakespeare as the monarchs of the Fey, at least as they mentioned it in Worlds & Monsters.




Maybe they're into Dragon Ball 

I'll add Titania and Oberron too. There's always space for good stories.


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## tsadkiel (Dec 12, 2008)

Kobold Avenger said:


> I was under the impression they were going to have Titania and Oberron, made famous by Shakespeare as the monarchs of the Fey, at least as they mentioned it in Worlds & Monsters.




I think Tiandra and Oran are Titania and Oberon renamed.


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## Amphimir Míriel (Dec 13, 2008)

tsadkiel said:


> I think Tiandra and Oran are Titania and Oberon renamed.




Copyrights, anyone?


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## Mercule (Dec 13, 2008)

Jack99 said:


> gives the victim the choice between being dominated or getting some ongoing psychic damage



Cool.  How would you like to be screwed today?


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## Kobold Avenger (Dec 13, 2008)

Amphimir Míriel said:


> Copyrights, anyone?




Doesn't apply, Shakespeare's work is in the public domain and is way too long ago, around before Copyright laws ever existed.


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## doppelganger (Dec 13, 2008)

Kobold Avenger said:


> Doesn't apply, Shakespeare's work is in the public domain and is way too long ago, around before Copyright laws ever existed.



I think he meant that Wizards could copyright the new names, not that they changed the names because of a copyright Shakespeare held.


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## thundershot (Dec 14, 2008)

As much as I love this thread, I just got my shipping notice from Amazon! I can't wait for these books (even though my group is still on KotS, the other adventures look pretty good)..


Oh.. the MAPS.... I noticed that one of the modules (I haven't run the others yet, so they blend together) have varying quality of maps... how are they for this one?



Thanks
Chris


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## Fifth Element (Dec 14, 2008)

doppelganger said:


> I think he meant that Wizards could copyright the new names, not that they changed the names because of a copyright Shakespeare held.



_Trademark _the new names. Trademark.


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## M.L. Martin (Dec 14, 2008)

I spotted an early release copy at a local Border's today and paged through it. Being ambivalent about 4E, I don't have a solid opinion about it, but one thing I can report on:

  The Blood War still exists--it's just in a state of uneasy truce right now, since Asmodeus doesn't want to provoke the Abyss, which would only unify in the face of an outside threat. 

  We also find out why it started in 4E's cosmology--the Abyss wants a piece of its Heart back. Asmodeus took it long ago, forged it into his famous _ruby rod_, and used it to kill his master. This weakened the Abyss and demonkind, too.


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## Nai_Calus (Dec 14, 2008)

Matthew L. Martin said:


> We also find out why it started in 4E's cosmology--the Abyss wants a piece of its Heart back. Asmodeus took it long ago, forged it into his famous _ruby rod_, and used it to kill his master. This weakened the Abyss and demonkind, too.




Now I have this horrible mental image of an intelligent rod that talks like Ruby Rhod from The Fifth Element, and Asmodeus being as unenthusiastic about it as Korben Dallas was in the movie.


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## Shroomy (Dec 14, 2008)

Matthew L. Martin said:


> I spotted an early release copy at a local Border's today and paged through it. Being ambivalent about 4E, I don't have a solid opinion about it, but one thing I can report on:
> 
> The Blood War still exists--it's just in a state of uneasy truce right now, since Asmodeus doesn't want to provoke the Abyss, which would only unify in the face of an outside threat.
> 
> We also find out why it started in 4E's cosmology--the Abyss wants a piece of its Heart back. Asmodeus took it long ago, forged it into his famous _ruby rod_, and used it to kill his master. This weakened the Abyss and demonkind, too.




I have to say that I rather like this explanation for the Blood War, more so than the Chaos vs. Law conflict (but then, I never liked the Chaos vs. Law conflict all that much).


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## M.L. Martin (Dec 14, 2008)

Shroomy said:


> I have to say that I rather like this explanation for the Blood War, more so than the Chaos vs. Law conflict (but then, I never liked the Chaos vs. Law conflict all that much).




   What it reminds me of is the initial explanation from what I recall reading in MC8 _Outer Planes Appendix_, about how the 'block of evil' was split at the dawn of time between the baatezu and the tanar'ri, and they were locked in perpetual struggle to achieve dominion over Evil itself.


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## Shemeska (Dec 18, 2008)

Having finally seen the book myself, a few first impressions:

1) The massive white space in the layout of the book is annoying to no end.

2) The ravaasta picture is just damn cool. And so is its writeup as a reimagined monster. It's not the same arcanaloth, but then again it's not the same cosmology, so outside of any preconceptions carried over from the original, it's a spiffy monster.

3) The planes vary from decent to very well written. I could tell which sections Rob Schwalb worked on, because I liked them best as far as themes and general elements I like that he has a tendency to include.

4) It's not a bad book. But it's very clear that my idea of and favored design approach to the planes is often antithetical to the design stance the 4e writing team used in working on the book, and in making their favored changes upon concepts that they converted over from the Great Wheel cosmology.

5) The artwork is a very mixed bag for me. Some pictures are just spectacular (the ravaasta, Dispater, etc) and others look amateurish (grazzt and the maralith). And then there's the fact that they continued the 4e trend of recycling 3.5 artwork. In just the first look, I found artwork that originally appeared in the 3.x books Sandstorm and Lost Empires of Faerun. It's jarring and tacky, and I have to wonder why WotC has been continually doing this, especially since they're putting books out in a more selective manner at the moment. It's their time to showcase their best work and emphasize a style for 4e, and I find myself going, "Nice art. I rather liked it the first time I saw it, several years ago when it was illustrating something else entirely. Now it's just jarring to see it crop up again with the serial numbers filed off."


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## Fifth Element (Dec 18, 2008)

Nai_Calus said:


> Now I have this horrible mental image of an intelligent rod that talks like Ruby Rhod from The Fifth Element, and Asmodeus being as unenthusiastic about it as Korben Dallas was in the movie.



Ruby Rhod from the what now?


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## Shemeska (Dec 18, 2008)

Fifth Element said:


> Ruby Rhod from the what now?




This:


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## tsadkiel (Dec 18, 2008)

tsadkiel said:


> I think Tiandra and Oran are Titania and Oberon renamed.




And now that I have the book, I *really* think Tiandra and Oran are Titania and Oberon renamed.


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## kenmarable (Dec 18, 2008)

Nai_Calus said:


> Now I have this horrible mental image of an intelligent rod that talks like Ruby Rhod from The Fifth Element, and Asmodeus being as unenthusiastic about it as Korben Dallas was in the movie.



That's it - I'm getting this book now!


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## Shroomy (Dec 19, 2008)

I got both P2 and the MotP this week.  I've read most of P2 and I have to say it is full of awesome; I agree with Jack that is probably the best of the 4e WoTC modules released so far.  A couple of things that I've noticed that I don't believe have been mentioned:

*In addition to all the new monsters, many of which are conversions, the phycomid makes a return to 4e, but as a hazard.
*The shunned make a nice counterpart to the reconceptualized drider; it also makes a lot more sense IMO.
*This has to be the first adventure where the NPCs make extensive use of magic items.
*I believe this is the first adventure outside of _Dungeon_ that used monsters from outside sources (the 



Spoiler



draegloth from the FRCS


 and the 



Spoiler



Purplespawn Nightmare from the _Draconomicon_


).
*Nightbringer is another really, really awesome 4e artifact.  I look forward to how they use it in the future adventures.


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## Jack99 (Dec 19, 2008)

Yeah, didn't want to spoil everything. 

Which is also why I said nothing of the Blood War still being in effect -  figured that would be a surprise to most. It was to me at least.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Dec 20, 2008)

I took a look into P2 now finally, and I must say, I am pleased. I think it might be a challenge to run, keeping the different NPCs and their motivation. There are lot of interesting story elements in the adventure. The skill challenges are interesting, especially with the variations on how to resolve such a challenge. 
There are a few interesting monsters, too, plus an interesting artifact. 

The adventure definitely creates a "Paragony" feel. 

--

I have the Manual of the Planes for some time now, and it is a very enjoyable read. I must say I really like the Feywild, and if I decide to run something homebrew, i want to utilize more of it. The H/P/E series so far has been spare on the Feywild, unfortunately. 

I liked most of the fluff and the plot hooks presented in the book. There isn't actually much crunch in the book, a big difference to something like Adventurers Vault or Martial Power. I like books that manage to keep their focus straight on crunch or on fluff.


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## Fifth Element (Dec 20, 2008)

Shemeska said:


> This:



Oh yeah, what's the name of that movie?


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## Jack99 (Dec 20, 2008)

Fifth Element said:


> Oh yeah, what's the name of that movie?




...


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## thundershot (Dec 20, 2008)

ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


*ahem*


I've had both books for almost a week and a half now, and they're both very enjoyable reads. The Manual of the Planes is one of the few D&D books I'm reading cover to cover straight through, and I'm happy with it.

P2 is also great, but I, too, am worried about making sure the NPC's get their proper due...


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