# Doctor Who (2020) - spoilers!



## Morrus (Jan 1, 2020)

I loved the first episode of 2020! Next one if this two-parter is on Sunday.

The spy stuff was fun. Haven’t seen Lenny Henry in ages! Shame Stephen Fry died so soon.

Crisis on Infinite Earths? Multiple universes.

What’s that weird purgatory place people get teleported to?

The Master!


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## dragoner (Jan 2, 2020)

It was pretty great!


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## Richards (Jan 2, 2020)

Morrus said:


> What’s that weird purgatory place people get teleported to?




It looked like a flea's-eye view of a dog.

Johnathan


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## Ryujin (Jan 2, 2020)

I enjoyed it very much. It felt very much like the frenetic energy of the Tennant days and yet still new.


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## Morrus (Jan 2, 2020)

Richards said:


> It looked like a flea's-eye view of a dog.



Hmmm - the Master does like to miniaturize people!


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## Ryujin (Jan 2, 2020)

Yes, but when he does, they're generally dead.


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## Umbran (Jan 3, 2020)

The electrical discharges along the strands made me thing neurons.  Like, they are inside someone's (or something's) brain...

I have to admit I prefer the Master who isn't literally barking/cackling mad.  More in the Delgado/Ainley mode.


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## Richards (Jan 6, 2020)

Well, tonight's episode made very little sense.  What was the plan, exactly?  Light-energy aliens from another universe want to invade Earth, so they need to send spies to various points in time to observe the eventual creation of the computer?  And the Master's going to help them because it's fun to kill humans, but then he'll double-cross the aliens because he's so eeeevil?  I must have missed the part where they explained why it made sense for the aliens to transport the Doctor and Yaz from Earth to their universe and back again, and why they sent the Doctor to various points in the past.  And what was Lenny Henry's character's goal?  Help aliens take over and turn most humans into data storage devices, so he can get to be one of the overseers of the project?  Um, why?  To impress his mom, who he then killed?

And laser shoes and laser cufflinks?  Really?

About the only redeeming bit of this two-parter (plot-wise) was the end of this episode with what happened to Gallifrey.  I'm curious to find out how the Timeless Child ties into this and what "lies" Time Lord civilization was based on.  I just hope they do a better job of making it make at least some sort of sense - this season, so far, while it has had some nice effects, isn't faring very well on that front.

Johnathan


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## Morrus (Jan 6, 2020)

Yeah, I have to agree. I have no idea what the plot was, or why anybody did anything.

But the episode end reveal was very interesting.


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## wicked cool (Jan 6, 2020)

next week looks like a filler episode. for about a minute when the massive download started I thought it was a cyberman plan. 

why did he give them his dead mother? cant figure out the whole sending the historical figures to the forest/inside world. 

Going to agree with others-seems like we got a bigger budget however part 2 of this episode was a major letdown

I am highly concerned at some point we are going to get a big lore altering change and I'm not going to like it. My theory is somehow the DR/Master are not true timelords but in fact are less than 100%


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## dragoner (Jan 6, 2020)

A lot of cool scenes, everything well done, except seems disjointed over all.

I also wonder now what has happened to Gallifrey, of course the Master blew it up (how?), though it seems to be a recurring theme, I would guess the Doctor will save it.


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## Vael (Jan 6, 2020)

Umbran said:


> The electrical discharges along the strands made me thing neurons.  Like, they are inside someone's (or something's) brain...




Oooh, I like this theory.



Umbran said:


> I have to admit I prefer the Master who isn't literally barking/cackling mad.  More in the Delgado/Ainley mode.




I really like this incarnation. There's a bit of that manic Simm energy, but he seems more seething, volcanic.

Overall, I'm just so happy. The Doctor is back! The team is back!

I hadn't noticed how little the Doctor had told her companions in the last series. So I'm interested to see how this proceeds.


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## Tonguez (Jan 8, 2020)

I really liked the Spy Master, Sasha Dawan does better crazy than Simms did, I also liked that they did a call back to the sound of drums and the Timeless child too

I liked the Spy theme of the first episode and the nod to Ada Lovelace in the second (Including her childhood illness), that was a nice homage and historic tidbit. I would have loved to see her added as a companion - a historic belle with advanced mathematical acumen has the makings of a great character, I hope we see her again. Indeed I’m kinda hoping that the Kasaavin’s realm really is inside Ada’s head and its her synapses that they travel along...


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## GreyLord (Jan 8, 2020)

Well, I finally caught it.  I thought something was off with O when we met him.  He just didn't seem...exactly right.  I still can't put my finger on it, but he didn't seem to be what we were told he was (and it looks as if I was right, though guessing at who he really was...was a tad harder and I didn't guess that part...till of course, the reveal).

I liked the second part.  I thought that the "alternate" dimension seemed something like an internet, or cables, or something like that (and I could see them as neurons in someone's head as well).


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## MNblockhead (Jan 8, 2020)

The only way I can make any sense of it is if the Kasaavins are an artifical intelligence. They need a massive network to invade and the earth is almost there. While they can somewho observe accross time and space they can't transfer, so they monitor worlds to understand when a civilization has the networked society they need to successfully infiltrate it.  The Master's poorly explained statue and plan somehow helped them jumpstart the process on earth. Lenny Henry had a dangerous mix of hubris, distain for most of humanity whom he sees as less than him, a mommy complex, and perhaps a mental illness. 

Why didn't the Kasaavins simply put themselves into robots...who knows maybe they come from a dimension that is so alien that they can't or would not want to limit themselves into discreet, individual entities. But if they are all around the universe, wouldn't they have been able to infiltrate an even more advanced and connected civilization. Perhaps the earth was there first successful toehold. Maybe the Master had something to do with it. 

I don't know. Really stretching here to try to make it make any sense.


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## wicked cool (Jan 13, 2020)

good 3rd episode-Wont spoil much but not as good as spyfall. felt more like last season which I didn't enjoy

Did watch an interview with Tenant and Smith at a recent convention. Hope we see one or both someday back on this show


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## Son of the Serpent (Jan 13, 2020)

I cant wait for regeneration.  Probably will happen in the 2020 season.


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## Umbran (Jan 13, 2020)

wicked cool said:


> why did he give them his dead mother?




Was that really hard to see?  Or is this a trope folks are unfamiliar with?  Successful character is so, because they were constantly attempting to be 'good enough' for a demanding parent.  Eventually character exacts revenge on said parent.  This doesn't ring any bells?



> My theory is somehow the DR/Master are not true timelords but in fact are less than 100%




Well, that the Doctor was part human was suggested with Paul McGann, and then quickly ignored everywhere else.  Or, the idea that the Time Lords maybe didn't so much create their technology as steal it, would be _entirely_ in keeping with their rather nasty nature seen at various points in the series, old and new.


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## Umbran (Jan 14, 2020)

Just watched this week's offering.  In many ways, perhaps it is a weak episode...

but the message at the end is important enough to carry it.


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## Richards (Jan 14, 2020)

Episode 3:  "Orphan 55"

I liked the Dreg monster design, for the most part.  I liked the design of the vehicle the resort people were in that crashed.

Let me think...yep, that's about all I liked about this episode.  The concept of a vacation paradise you can only get to via teleporting from anywhere across the cosmos (which sounds like it would be pretty expensive and/or require a lot of power but can apparently happen merely by placing six coupons together) was pretty stupid.  Graham gathered the six required coupons but the teleport took him, the Doctor, Yaz, and Ryan so they all got the 2-week vacation - what would have happened if, say, Graham had assembled his six coupons in the middle of a crowded Grand Central Station or something?  Free vacations for all?

The whole competing "Mom doesn't pay enough attention to me so I'm going to blow up her life's work" attitude vs. "I'm going to completely ignore my daughter to spend time building this great project...for her!" attitude was pretty silly.

I'm still trying to figure out how a life form that breathes oxygen and exhales carbon dioxide evolves to do the exact opposite.  (Because of global warming, apparently.)  So what exactly happened?  Global warming killed off all the plant life on the planet and the atmosphere ended up choked with carbon dioxide from all the people alive who still insisting on breathing, so they had to evolve?  That's... I don't think that's how that would work.  (Are there no oxygen breathers on this orphan world?  If not, you're going to have the same problem in reverse once all the carbon dioxide gets converted to oxygen by the Dregs.  Then what?  Do they evolve back to oxygen breathers again?)  And while I certainly don't mind allegories in Doctor Who to get a point across, this one was bludgeoned at the TV viewer to a ridiculous extent.  They might as well have ended it with, "Well, that's the end of tonight's story; now I'd like to lecture all the viewers about the horrors of global warning for several minutes."  I guess subtlety was not what they were going for.  And I really doubt anyone who's not already behind the "global warning is bad" message is going to have their opinion swayed by an episode of Doctor Who.

I thought that was awfully nice of the Dreg to just stand there and breathe oxygen in the Doctor's face to refill the oxygen supply on her arm (instead of eviscerating her like they were doing to the rest of the resort folks).  And it was sure sporting of the Dreg to just walk right into the cage and get locked up rather than attack the Doctor there at the end.

And watching the episode I actually started wondering if the writer got paid a hefty bonus for every "heroic sacrifice" he was able to put into the plot.  (That would have made an interesting drinking game.)

I see there will be a Cyberman episode later this season.  Maybe that one will have some decent writing behind it.  I'm underwhelmed so far this season.  Still, next week has Nikola Tesla in it - that should be interesting.

Johnathan


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## Son of the Serpent (Jan 14, 2020)

Umbran said:


> Just watched this week's offering.  In many ways, perhaps it is a weak episode...
> 
> but the message at the end is important enough to carry it.



Thats a very sad saving grace.

What was the message at the tail end of, what i feel like you are implying was, an hour of boredom?


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## Morrus (Jan 14, 2020)

Richards said:


> I'm still trying to figure out how a life form that breathes oxygen and exhales carbon dioxide evolves to do the exact opposite.  (Because of global warming, apparently.)




It's the other way round. Plants breathe CO2 (and water) and create glucose as food, with oxygen as a side-product.


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## Umbran (Jan 14, 2020)

Son of the Serpent said:


> What was the message at the tail end of what i feel like you arr implying was an hour of boredom?




Oh, no, I was not bored watching the episode.  It was weak for other reasons, but it didn't bore me.

The message:



Spoiler


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## Umbran (Jan 14, 2020)

Richards said:


> The concept of a vacation paradise you can only get to via teleporting from anywhere across the cosmos (which sounds like it would be pretty expensive and/or require a lot of power but can apparently happen merely by placing six coupons together) was pretty stupid.




With respect, long-range transmat/teleport was established in Doctor Who... back in the 1970s, I believe.  And, the Doctor has a box bigger on the inside that goes anywhere in time and space, and you're worried about just moving people around?



> I'm still trying to figure out how a life form that breathes oxygen and exhales carbon dioxide evolves to do the exact opposite.  (Because of global warming, apparently.)  So what exactly happened?




Um, Doctor Who isn't about telling you the exact history of its monsters, unless that history is plot relevant.  

Be that as it may, it is important to note that "breathing" means different things for different organisms.  For you and I, "breathing" is taking in an oxidizing agent that we then use to burn fuel.  For plants, "breathing" is a process where they bring in the bulk of their building material (carbon) - plants build themselves out of thin air!

Chemically, carbon dioxide doesn't work as an oxidizing agent - it is already oxidized, obviously, thus the name.  So, it must be that these creatures are acting more like plants - they are taking in carbon dioxide for the carbon, and they release the oxygen as a by-product.  



> And I really doubt anyone who's not already behind the "global warning is bad" message is going to have their opinion swayed by an episode of Doctor Who.




With respect, the show is talking about efforts to change how global society operates and a massive scale.  That's not a thing you talk about once, and never mention again.  That's a message that needs to be repeated, over and over, to keep people's mind on the target, even if they are on-board with the notion.

If you don't want to be given an occasional moral... Doctor Who really isn't the right show to watch.


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## Son of the Serpent (Jan 14, 2020)

Umbran said:


> Oh, no, I was not bored watching the episode.  It was weak for other reasons, but it didn't bore me.
> 
> The message:
> 
> ...



Ah.  Why was it weak?


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## Morrus (Jan 14, 2020)

I found it a little clumsily preachy. Doctor Who is better when it shows (as it did earlier in the episode), rather than tells (as it did at the end).


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## Son of the Serpent (Jan 14, 2020)

Morrus said:


> I found it a little clumsily preachy. Doctor Who is better when it shows (as it did earlier in the episode), rather than tells (as it did at the end).



I completely agree with that.  Honestly i cant think of a context (entertainment or otherwise) that preachiness is not a complete turn off to me.  I hate preachiness.  If something is preachy keep it away from me.


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## wicked cool (Jan 14, 2020)

it was beyond preachy. The preacher hit us over the head with a brick


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## Son of the Serpent (Jan 14, 2020)

Umbran said:


> With respect, long-range transmat/teleport was established in Doctor Who... back in the 1970s, I believe.  And, the Doctor has a box bigger on the inside that goes anywhere in time and space, and you're worried about just moving people around?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



IME much more people at this point are likely to abandon the "global warming matters m'kay? Ship" from the message saturating their lives than are people likely to join that boat.

People dont like to be preached at.  But that message is starting to get the cultural perception of being preachy by default.  Kinda getting to the point where there is a tightrope to be walked because it was pushed too hard too fast.

People love dogma.  They are deathly allergic to dogmatc saturation though.  Success is not captured with a lead blanket.


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## Umbran (Jan 14, 2020)

Son of the Serpent said:


> People love dogma.  They are deathly allergic to dogmatc saturation though.




And that... is a dogma.  

Believe what you want.  I'm not going to argue it here.


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## Son of the Serpent (Jan 14, 2020)

Umbran said:


> And that... is a dogma.
> 
> Believe what you want.  I'm not going to argue it here.



Is it though?  Is it?  

But sure.  Lets not argue about it.


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## Tonguez (Jan 15, 2020)

having watched it, I thought there was far too much going on - Bellas heel turn wasnt needed for instance,
also surprised they decided to set it in Russia, though not so surprised about the Made in China jab

the end was preachy, but its not the first time Who hasbeen that....


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## wicked cool (Jan 15, 2020)

last 2 seasons-less classic creatures and a lot less Tardis. Preach all you want but please return to some classics. is it 4+ years since we've seen a weeping angel? 

One of my favorite parts of Mandalorian are nods to lore and returns of classics


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## Morrus (Jan 15, 2020)

wicked cool said:


> last 2 seasons-less classic creatures and a lot less Tardis. Preach all you want but please return to some classics. is it 4+ years since we've seen a weeping angel?
> 
> One of my favorite parts of Mandalorian are nods to lore and returns of classics



Of the last four episodes only one hasn’t had a classic villain - two Master episodes and a Dalek episode.


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## Anoth (Jan 15, 2020)

Last season really disappointed me. I mean alot. But this season is off to a good start. Keep it up.


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## Vael (Jan 15, 2020)

I didn't hate the episode, Orphan 55 was an okay viewing experience. But the episode does not hold up to any scrutiny. I didn't really care for any of the guest cast. The monster design and the tech was kinda cool.


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## trappedslider (Jan 15, 2020)

My favorite bit of the episode was the fact that the captions included the 3 in the characters name.


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## Tonguez (Jan 15, 2020)

trappedslider said:


> My favorite bit of the episode was the fact that the captions included the 3 in the characters name.




Hyph3n with a 3 - yeah, strangely enough she was my favourite character, even if she was a cutesy feline and just a red shirt being lined up to die
And what exactly happened to Benni? Where was his voice coming from? (I thought they were going show that he had been ‘infected’ and the reveal would be that the Dregs were humans transformed by a infection (or a Chernobyl like disaster), unfortunately that wasnt to be)


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## Ryujin (Jan 16, 2020)

Tonguez said:


> And what exactly happened to Benni?




"They were having fun." That line, alone, should get the imagination going as to what happened to him. And not in a good way.


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## Richards (Jan 20, 2020)

Episode 4: Nikola Tesla's Night of Terror

Well, now that's more like it!  A credible alien plan for once, decent special effects, and a fairly good alien design (the Skithra Queen reminded me more than a little of the Racnoss Empress from the Tenth Doctor's "The Runaway Bride" episode, only much more humanoid in build).  Plus, it was a historical episode, which are often fun.  This was easily my favorite episode this season.

Johnathan


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## trappedslider (Jan 21, 2020)

I loved how the doctor Squeed over Tesla and not Edison lol


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## Morrus (Jan 21, 2020)

Yep, this was the best one so far. A very traditional episode.


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## wicked cool (Jan 21, 2020)

Wow I found it to be one of the worst episodes. You have an advanced race needing Tesla to fix their ship and the guns don't work however they threaten us? super fast scoprions but cant catch people (reminded me of t-rex jurrasic park bumping into things. The Dr lectures Tesla when he wont share the alien found technology with her. Plus we got zilch when it comes to the what/why the master did?

Im really curious if this show is at the same hype it was when Matt Smith/Tenant were Dr's especially in the UK.


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## Tonguez (Jan 21, 2020)

While I did like the introduction of Tesla the story seemed a bit cartoonish in its portrayal of his rivalry with Edison and the unneccesary train sequence, but it was the alien plot that really spoiled what could have been an interesting story, especially when the scorpions proved a bit incompetent to actually be  a real threat to anyone - it destroyed any sense of real menace and the Queens make up just made them come off as amateur Racnos cosplay.

and although it was Tesla who finally pushed the button,  I was surprised at the ruthlessness of the Doctor making the order to kill the entire Scorpion species rather than just fixing their ship and telling them to leave.
Even in the case of the very similar Racnos it was Saxon who order their ship be destroyed.

(also was anyone else reminded of Command and Conquers Tesla Coil weapon?)


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## Richards (Jan 22, 2020)

Tonguez said:


> I was surprised at the ruthlessness of the Doctor making the order to kill the entire Scorpion species rather than just fixing their ship and telling them to leave.




True, but that wasn't until after the Skithra Queen threatened to burn the world below her ship if she didn't get what she wanted.  Throughout the Doctor's various incarnations, there has been a decided lack of compassion for bullies.  And threatening the Earth is a good way to get the Doctor on your case.

Johnathan


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## Nutation (Jan 22, 2020)

wicked cool said:


> super fast scoprions but cant catch people (reminded me of t-rex jurrasic park bumping into things.




I liked this part. The monsters never catch the companions, but in this case we saw why. They were bad at cornering and they possibly fought each other (not sure what I was seeing). Usually, the chase just arbitrarily fails before the companion closes a door, etc.


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## trappedslider (Jan 27, 2020)

well, that was something else. I loved the call back to David's issue with the double "oo" sound and Jack is back!


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## Richards (Jan 27, 2020)

Yeah, that was definitely an interesting episode.  I'm not sure what's going on with the Doctor's potential past "former self," but we've seen a "fake Doctor" before - the Tenth Doctor faced that guy with the hot air balloon who thought he was the Doctor after having been accidentally "contaminated" with the Doctor's memories - although this seems very different.  And the chameleon arch is in play again, too - interesting.  I guess we'll have to see how it all plays out.  I do hope they're not planning on grafting in a whole lot of former incarnations of the Doctor that have faded into obscurity; while it played out well enough for the War Doctor, I'd rather they not continue to go the retroactive continuity route.  But we'll see.

Johnathan


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## Vael (Jan 27, 2020)

I was really happy with this episode. Sets up a lot of interesting stuff, I'm eager to see how this season progresses.


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## Morrus (Jan 27, 2020)

Now that was an awesome episode. Judoon, Captain Jack, two Doctors, another time lord, cryptic messages about Cybermen, what’s not to like?


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## Blackrat (Jan 27, 2020)

Yeah, I don’t know what expletives to use! That was some episode


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## Morrus (Jan 27, 2020)

So she had a TARDIS that looks a lot like old Who, and she doesn’t know what a sonic screwdriver is. 

Theories?


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## Richards (Jan 27, 2020)

If we take her story at face value and she _is _a previous incarnation of the Doctor, then she's got to be pre-Pertwee, as I believe the Third Doctor was the first to wield a sonic screwdriver.  And since I believe we saw the First Doctor regenerate into the Second, she's either pre-Hartnell or perhaps somewhere between the Second Doctor and the Third.  (I don't recall there being an actual regeneration scene between those two - but I could be wrong.)

I'm personally of the opinion that the "Ruth" Doctor somehow _isn't_ in fact the real Doctor, as it would seem odd to cast the first female Doctor and then write up a plot-line where nope, she wasn't the first female Doctor after all.  (I'm applying "meta-game" logic here, I admit.)  I do recall in "The Doctor's Daughter" the Tenth Doctor ended up with a female clone patterned after himself; it could be something like that or maybe the "Ruth" Doctor is from a parallel dimension.  That is, after all, where the current batch of Cybermen come from (another Tenth Doctor group of episodes - funny how much of this season is calling back to Tennant's reign).

Johnathan


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## Morrus (Jan 27, 2020)

We’ve seen Hartnell steal the TARDIS, though. So she can’t be pre-Hartnell.


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## Nagol (Jan 27, 2020)

Richards said:


> If we take her story at face value and she _is _a previous incarnation of the Doctor, then she's got to be pre-Pertwee, as I believe the Third Doctor was the first to wield a sonic screwdriver.  And since I believe we saw the First Doctor regenerate into the Second, she's either pre-Hartnell or perhaps somewhere between the Second Doctor and the Third.  (I don't recall there being an actual regeneration scene between those two - but I could be wrong.)
> 
> I'm personally of the opinion that the "Ruth" Doctor somehow _isn't_ in fact the real Doctor, as it would seem odd to cast the first female Doctor and then write up a plot-line where nope, she wasn't the first female Doctor after all.  (I'm applying "meta-game" logic here, I admit.)  I do recall in "The Doctor's Daughter" the Tenth Doctor ended up with a female clone patterned after himself; it could be something like that or maybe the "Ruth" Doctor is from a parallel dimension.  That is, after all, where the current batch of Cybermen come from (another Tenth Doctor group of episodes - funny how much of this season is calling back to Tennant's reign).
> 
> Johnathan




The 2nd to 3rd Dr. regeneration was at the hands of the time lords who stole Jaime's memories and dropped him back in his normal timeline at the time he left with the Dr.  They also placed blocks in the Dr.'s mind to prevent TARDIS use until Pertwee was able to work around them.  So probably not pre-Pertwee.


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## tomBitonti (Jan 27, 2020)

If the master went to a "parallel" (or some similar alternate universe), could it be that the other doctor is a parallel universe doctor?

Or, is she a failed replica, with most of the doctor bits, but not the entire moral package?

Thx!
TomB


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## Richards (Jan 28, 2020)

Some further thoughts:

The Ruth Doctor kind of works as a pre-Hartnell Doctor if we assume her TARDIS isn't stolen (because we know Hartnell, the First Doctor, was the one who stole the TARDIS in the first place).  She could have been given the TARDIS by the Time Lords and sent to Earth on a secret mission, requiring her to use the chameleon gate to temporarily transform into a human.  Then, mission complete (which hasn't been shown on screen yet), she later returns to Gallifrey, eventually regenerates into the First Doctor, who at some point gets fed up with Time Lord intervention and decides to steal a TARDIS.  If that were true, it would explain why he chose that particular Type 40 - he'd already become accustomed to it from his previous incarnation.

But that raises some questions about regeneration: it's been stated (since regeneration was mentioned on the show) that Time Lords can regenerate 12 times, for a total of 13 bodies.  This was a plot point with the Master during the Fourth Doctor's era, since he had used up his 12 regenerations and was shambling around like a lich (in "The Deadly Assassin") and was offered a new complete set of regenerations during "The Five Doctors" (after abducting Nyssa's father's body in "The Keeper of Traken").  Also, the Eleventh Doctor was at the end of his regeneration cycle (10 previous forms, his current form, plus the War Doctor, plus the Tenth Doctor "wasting" a regeneration on growing his severed hand into a clone replica for Rose), so the Ruth Doctor being a previous incarnation of the Doctor doesn't make the math add up.

Unless...the Ruth Doctor is just one of the Doctor's original 13 bodies, at the end of which he was (for whatever reason) given a new full set of regenerations and the First Doctor we know is really just the first of the second set of 13.  That's possible, but I don't really like it - too much retconning for my liking.  (Although it helps explain the extra images when the Fourth Doctor was engaged in a mental duel with Morbius (in "The Brain of Morbius") when the images on the screen regress from Tom Baker to Pertwee to Troughton to Hartnell...to a bunch of other men we'd never seen before.  Former Morbius forms, or previous Doctor incarnations?

Eh - I'm still holding out on the "parallel universe" explanation.

Johnathan


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## trappedslider (Jan 28, 2020)

Richards said:


> Some further thoughts:
> 
> The Ruth Doctor kind of works as a pre-Hartnell Doctor if we assume her TARDIS isn't stolen (because we know Hartnell, the First Doctor, was the one who stole the TARDIS in the first place).  She could have been given the TARDIS by the Time Lords and sent to Earth on a secret mission, requiring her to use the chameleon gate to temporarily transform into a human.



The secret Mission idea can fit nicely with what Jack was saying,about some sort of alliance sending someone

As for parallel or alternate universe unless Chris is lying,that's a no.


show boss Chris Chibnall has confirmed that this isn't 'a trick'.

He told The Mirror: 'The important thing to say is – she is definitively The Doctor. There's not a sort of parallel universe going on, there's no tricks. Jo Martin is The Doctor.'

Chibnall noted that the Top Boy star was credited in the same way John Hurt was credited when he appeared as another previously-unseen incarnation, who cropped up during the 50th anniversary special The Day Of The Doctor in 2013. 

'That's why we gave her the credit at the end which all new Doctors have the first time you see them. John Hurt got that credit,' Chibnall explained.









						Doctor Who unveils Jo Martin as first black Time Lord in show history
					

Doctor Who has introduced its first black portrayal of the titular Time Lord in its illustrious 57-year history.




					www.dailymail.co.uk


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## Richards (Jan 28, 2020)

Interesting, although the title of that article is misleading: this may be the first black Doctor we've ever seen, but she certainly isn't the first black Time Lord - or even the first female black Time Lord.  We saw a white male Time Lord regenerate into a female black Time Lord when the Twelfth Doctor shot him with a gun.  There may well have been more, but admittedly not in as prominent a role.

So it sounds like my parallel universe idea is out the window, then.  Hmm.  I guess I'll have to go back to my "13 previously unknown incarnations" theory, if only to get the numbers to add up correctly.  I just hope Chibnall is taking the Doctor's past history into account; I don't want him blatantly ignoring the past so he can do what he wants in the present without worrying about creating logical paradoxes or opening plot holes that are never resolved.

Johnathan


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## Rabulias (Jan 28, 2020)

Richards said:


> But that raises some questions about regeneration: it's been stated (since regeneration was mentioned on the show) that Time Lords can regenerate 12 times, for a total of 13 bodies.






			
				The Master said:
			
		

> Everything you think you know is a lie.


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## GreyLord (Jan 28, 2020)

OR, it could be a LATER regeneration???

With some unknown history regarding memory???


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## Morrus (Jan 28, 2020)

Chris Chibnall says not a parallel universe.









						Jo Martin - Not A Parallel Universe Doctor Who
					

Talking to the Daily Mirror in the UK, Doctor Who showrunner Chris Chibnall stated that the Doctor, as portrayed by Jo Martin in this weekend's episode



					www.bleedingcool.com
				




"The important thing to say is – she is definitively the Doctor,” he explained. “There’s not a sort of parallel universe going on, there’s no tricks.

“Jo Martin is the Doctor, that’s why we gave her the credit at the end which all new Doctors have the first time you see them. John Hurt got that credit.”


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## Blackrat (Jan 28, 2020)

I really need to watch the episode again, but I am leaning to pre-Hartnell theory. Her mannerisms were similar to the Dr.1, and she had an impatient, berating nature to her, like Dr.1. The interior of her TARDIS was also reminescent of the early versions. Now, we know Dr.1 stole that TARDIS, but it was in repair bay and the chameleon circuit failure could have been already in effect at the time, and manifested as the last disguise it used when he initialised it. So, having used that TARDIS before could have been a contributing factor in him deciding to steal that particular one. There have also been hints to an earlier regeneration cycle, though those are rather vague.

But, all this together, makes me think it is possible, even plausible that she is the last of the previous cycle.


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## Morrus (Jan 28, 2020)

Blackrat said:


> Now, we know Dr.1 stole that TARDIS, but it was in repair bay and the chameleon circuit failure could have been already in effect at the time, and manifested as the last disguise it used when he initialised it.



It didn’t look like a police box when he stole it. It looked like a silver capsule.


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## Blackrat (Jan 28, 2020)

Indeed, but they could have managed to reset it at the repair bay, then when he initialised it, it reverted back to the last disguise. Far fetched, I know, but a possibility. I like the theory, and will love to see what the truth turns out to be, regardless...


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## Blackrat (Jan 28, 2020)

I will be rewatching tonight, I need to pay more attention to the interior, but I think it looked like the early versions with modern twists...


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## Ryujin (Jan 28, 2020)

Clearly Hartnell-Doctor stole the TARDIS, but I suppose there could have been a Doctor before him who used one, but officially rather than unofficially....?


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## Anoth (Jan 28, 2020)

Ryujin said:


> Clearly Hartnell-Doctor stole the TARDIS, but I suppose there could have been a Doctor before him who used one, but officially rather than unofficially....?



You’re all wrong. The tardis stole a timelord to explore all space and time.


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## Mallus (Jan 28, 2020)

To summarize this season: the opening two-partner was a fun Bond homage (and I like Sacha Dhawan's Tennant-era Master), the next two were forgettable (despite Tesla?!), and the last was Chibnall upping his game in way I didn't see coming. Now I'm interested in the rest of the season and Whittaker series 3!


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## wicked cool (Jan 28, 2020)

Problems if true
Destroys the whole narrative for her being the first female Dr (if true)
We have potentially another War Dr situation?

There seems to be a lot to digest in this episode but was there really? We get a little bit of Barrowman and yet hes all mysterious and speaking in code. I don't remember him being all mysterious ever? We get a new Dr/fake Dr and now we might mess up the whole timeline. Sure its a better episode but not sure this helps sinking ratings 

Still feel like Chibnalli wants to destroy the Dr Who universe pre 2017


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## wicked cool (Feb 3, 2020)

Has to be the worst episode of the season.


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## Blackrat (Feb 3, 2020)

It was a bit of meh, but still kinda classic Dr.: Saving earth from monster of the week...


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## Vael (Feb 3, 2020)

I enjoyed it. The guest cast managed to sell their characters with minimal time. I like this new development of the Doctor willing to send her "fam" out on different missions. I still need more Yaz, but I liked both her interactions with Jake and her jump first mentality. After last weeks episode, almost anything will feel like a come down, but this was solid.


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## Morrus (Feb 3, 2020)

I quite liked it. It didn't blow me away, but it was solid.


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## Richards (Feb 3, 2020)

Yeah, that one was pretty "Meh."

Johnathan


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## Khelon Testudo (Feb 4, 2020)

I think this season is on a starvation budget, even compared to last one. Re-used sets, and poorly handled bird puppets. Aliens in gas masks and raincoats. Also a bit preachy, but Who was ever thus.

Make-up was good.


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## Tonguez (Feb 4, 2020)

I dont know if  Lungbarrow is still canon but it is implied there that the Doctor is The Other who along with Rassilon and Omega were the founders of Timelord society and virtually Demigods to Galifreyans.
So could Ruth be a version of the Other?

That would explain how Ruth is a pre-Hrtnell version of the Doctor but also why the Doctor doesnt remember Ruth and still leave Hartnell was the first renegade Timelord who was stolen by the TARDIS.
Given that Captain Jack refers to something having been sent back in time, was that a reference to this _Other _Doctor?



Also this is the second time this season with a "pollution threaten Earths survival" theme.


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## Morrus (Feb 4, 2020)

Khelon Testudo said:


> I think this season is on a starvation budget, even compared to last one. Re-used sets, and poorly handled bird puppets. Aliens in gas masks and raincoats. Also a bit preachy, but Who was ever thus.
> 
> Make-up was good.



Weird. I think this year looks much higher budget than last year.


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## GreyLord (Feb 5, 2020)

wicked cool said:


> Problems if true
> Destroys the whole narrative for her being the first female Dr (if true)
> We have potentially another War Dr situation?
> 
> ...




Most of Doctor Who in the earlier years (first series 1-26) hovered around 7 million viewers with highs at almost 12 million some seasons and the worst down to around 5 million.  When it dropped below 5 million consecutively was when it was finally cancelled.

This season seems to be headed more towards the direction of series 10 right now, but it is mid-series so it might prop up soon.  None of them have been below season 23-25 yet of the older Doctor Who series in viewership.

I think that series 10 was being hampered (or they saw it was) with an older doctor when previous doctors were younger, and putting in a younger doctor again (Whitaker) propped up the ratings once more for series 11.

I'm not sure what's happening with the flagging viewership this season right now, though it may be a continuation of the slowly declining ratings of series 11 (started at almost 11 million and decreased to around a little over 6.5 million, a point where series 12 started a little higher than for the first episode).

I'm not sure why the sinking viewership/rankings to be honest, nor what is causing it or could help it.


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## Morrus (Feb 5, 2020)

GreyLord said:


> Most of Doctor Who in the earlier years (first series 1-26) hovered around 7 million viewers with highs at almost 12 million some seasons and the worst down to around 5 million.  When it dropped below 5 million consecutively was when it was finally cancelled.




Those sorts of figures aren't comparably to today. There were only three channels back then.

TV as a whole is generally dropping in viewing figures due to a saturation of choice. Pick almost any show, and you'll probably find viewers have decreased in the last few years.


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## wicked cool (Feb 5, 2020)

shes dropped a lot since Capaldi and has a better night. She still has very good numbers and it appears the budget has decreased based on these costumes


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## Morrus (Feb 5, 2020)

wicked cool said:


> shes dropped a lot since Capaldi and has a better night.




Saturday night TV in the UK is traditionally a better night than Sunday night. That's where all the big prime time shows go (X Factor, Strictly, where Doctor Who relaunched, etc.)

Capaldi's three series opening figures were 6.68m (2017), 6.54m (2015), 9.17m (2014). 2017 averaged about 5m viewers.

Whitaker's have been 10.96m (2018) and 6.89m (2020). 2018's series averaged about 7m viewers. So far this year is averaging about 5.5m, a little higher than Capaldi's.



> She still has very good numbers and it appears the budget has decreased based on these costumes




Because you saw that one guy with gas mask in the latest episode? _Spyfall_ was a very expensive double episode, and they're shooting on-location in various foreign countries. They're spending tons of money.


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## Mallus (Feb 5, 2020)

Praxeus looked expensive, too. And I think it ranks as one of the best directed Doctor Who episodes.

As for it walloping the audience upside the head with a cricket bat that has an environmentalist message scrawled on it... let's just say I really enjoy science fiction when it refrains from subtlety.


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## Morrus (Feb 5, 2020)

Mallus said:


> As for it walloping the audience upside the head with a cricket bat that has an environmentalist message scrawled on it... let's just say I really enjoy science fiction when it refrains from subtlety.



Heh. Yeah.









						Except For That Time: Political and Social Awareness in Doctor Who - Sartorial Geek
					

We heard it when Jodie Whittaker was announced as the Doctor. The first time we saw a photo of the new ethnically diverse companions Yasmin, Ryan, and Graham we heard it.




					sartorialgeek.com
				












						Doctor Who's long history of political and social consciousness
					

Anyone who thinks Doctor Who hasn't always used its storytelling for politically and socially conscious ends hasn't been paying attention...




					www.denofgeek.com


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## Mallus (Feb 5, 2020)

Just to be clear, I was being completely serious. I'm a old-school Trekkie at heart. I like my messages & allegories loud. Like turned up to 11. There's a place for subtlety in art, but that place is rarely sci-if.


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## Morrus (Feb 5, 2020)

Mallus said:


> Just to be clear, I was being completely serious.



I know! I was backing you up there!


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## Ryujin (Feb 5, 2020)

Mallus said:


> Just to be clear, I was being completely serious. I'm a old-school Trekkie at heart. I like my messages & allegories loud. Like turned up to 11. There's a place for subtlety in art, but that place is rarely sci-if.




I agree whole heartedly; SciFi tends to be at its best, when making in-your-face social commentary.

Or 'splosions. Lots of 'splosions.


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## GreyLord (Feb 6, 2020)

Mallus said:


> Praxeus looked expensive, too. And I think it ranks as one of the best directed Doctor Who episodes.
> 
> As for it walloping the audience upside the head with a cricket bat that has an environmentalist message scrawled on it... let's just say I really enjoy science fiction when it refrains from subtlety.




I'm not so certain it is hitting people with a cricket bat so much as trying to be science fiction.

Science Fiction tries in some ways to predict what a possible future may be based upon what we currently know or think we know according to science.

With much of our current scientific ideas we have certain predictions regarding Climate Change and what may happen if we and the rest of the world continue as we have been (and, even if the entirety of the Western population suddenly becomes carbon neutral or even reverses what they have been doing, they still consist of less than 1/3 of the world's population...if the rest of the world continues...who knows what may happen)?

Thus, as with Science Fiction I think they are just extrapolating possible future scenarios and ideas based upon what our modern sciences have as possible predictions.

No need for hitting anyone upside the head with a cricket bat.


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## Morrus (Feb 17, 2020)

Good episode. I liked that one. Mary and Percy Shelly, Byron (whose daughter we saw earlier in the series!) and a lone Cyberman. Two part finale begins next week!

And are ghosts real?


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## trappedslider (Feb 18, 2020)

As the episode started, I thought it would have been better if it had aired around Halloween lol


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## Vael (Feb 24, 2020)

It's hard to evaluate a two-parter, but I enjoyed last night's episode. Looking forward to part 2, and seeing how the season mystery is put together.


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## jonesy (Feb 24, 2020)




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## Tonguez (Feb 28, 2020)

oh the Master!

and who is Brendan?


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## Morrus (Feb 28, 2020)

Tonguez said:


> and who is Brian?



Brian?


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## GreyLord (Mar 2, 2020)

Well...on the finale...

That's one way to invalidate a lot of episodes (or make others worthless in what occurred in them).

Be funny to see the 3/4 of who fans go crazy, and the other 1/4 try to calm the rest of them that's it's okay.


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## Blackrat (Mar 2, 2020)

I’m seeing this as a move back towards the The Other storyline. I like it. The finale was not great, but it was solid.

And I loved the Cyber-Time-Lords


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## Morrus (Mar 2, 2020)

Brain of Morbius finally confirmed after all these years!

My only question is why does Doctor Ruth’s TARDIS look like a police call box 

Also, are there now two spare TARDIS’s lying around? One looking like a tree, another like a house in Sheffield?


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## Adam Crossingham (Mar 2, 2020)

Morrus said:


> Also, are there now two spare TARDIS’s lying around? One looking like a tree, another like a house in Sheffield?



So Team Tardis can go and rescue the Doctor of course.

Then Doctor-Donna can find the other one and hilarity ensues.


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## Ryujin (Mar 2, 2020)

Morrus said:


> Brain of Morbius finally confirmed after all these years!
> 
> My only question is why does Doctor Ruth’s TARDIS look like a police call box
> 
> Also, are there now two spare TARDIS’s lying around? One looking like a tree, another like a house in Sheffield?




Do you know how much a 237 bedroom, 96 bath home with 3 built in pools would go for in Sheffield?! They're set for life!


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## Nutation (Mar 2, 2020)

1. I didn't see any definitive link between The Timeless Child and The Doctor, just the Master's say-so.
2. Were there Brain of Morbius stills? I was thinking of that episode, but didn't back up to step through frame-by-frame. If so, group them with Doctor Ruth, but still no definitive ties to The Timeless Child.
3. It's awfully soon to be invalidating The Time of the Doctor.
4. Susan? Clara? I don't think Chibnall has any respect for the established history of the show.


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## Truth Seeker (Mar 3, 2020)

-Amid the worst ratings in nearly its 50-plus year history, it's reported the current series of Doctor Who is losing a majority of its companions. It's reported that *Bradley Walsh* *will quit *Doctor Who following this year's Holiday special and that co-star* Tosin Cole *will be joining him.-


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## Ryujin (Mar 3, 2020)

So now we're looking at throwing out one of two long-standing 'facts.' Sure, it makes sense that The Master was lying and was actually the foundling, but he and The Doctor grew up together and looked into the Untamed Schism together, which is what drove The Master mad. On the other hand it makes sense that The Doctor is the foundling as The Master stated, except for the previous statement.


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## Blackrat (Mar 3, 2020)

Ryujin said:


> So now we're looking at throwing out one of two long-standing 'facts.' Sure, it makes sense that The Master was lying and was actually the foundling, but he and The Doctor grew up together and looked into the Untamed Schism together, which is what drove The Master mad. On the other hand it makes sense that The Doctor is the foundling as The Master stated, except for the previous statement.



Except that the Doctor suggested the Division turned them back into child when they wiped their memory. So they grew up again, and all their memories with the Master are still true.


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## wicked cool (Mar 3, 2020)

I'm not surprised-Its really 2 bad they are destroying the history of the show as well. Chiballi will go down as the man who set back Dr. Who for years. In the end who will be more reviled Kathleen Kennedy or Chibnalli.

Horrible companions-4 is not better than 1 as it shortens screen time and less emotional investment

For the most part some of the worst storylines-Pale shadow compared to Smith and Tenant

I'm sorry but she maybe the worst Dr we have ever had (I would rank her with Colin Baker but him and McCoy we saddled with awful budgets/costumes etc and the franchise was dying). Plus you then introduce us to another Dr who also has no personality. You need a James gunn type director who can add a little bit of humor to this dull affair. If you want a female Dr then find a comedian (what is the equivalent of Saturday night live in England). Leslie Jones would have been far superior to either Dr as she has wit and screen presence

you took away the Christmas special-Why? its pathetic they cant get their act together

theres no excuse-kids/teenagers will binge watch older shows on Netflix such as the Office. You had a loyal audience and clearly flushed it away. BBC response was Dr Who/Star Wars fans are bigots etc. Sorry but that's not a way to win back your audience


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## Morrus (Mar 3, 2020)

wicked cool said:


> I'm not surprised-Its really 2 bad they are destroying the history of the show as well. Chiballi will go down as the man who set back Dr. Who for years. In the end who will be more reviled Kathleen Kennedy or Chibnalli.




My god, the internet is silly sometimes. Sometimes I swear it just parodies itself.


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## Ryujin (Mar 3, 2020)

Morrus said:


> My god, the internet is silly sometimes. Sometimes I swear it just parodies itself.




I challenge your "sometimes" and offer "mostly" by way of response.


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## wicked cool (Mar 3, 2020)

and yet the ratings are what they are.


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## trappedslider (Mar 3, 2020)

And yet BBC is standing by it's show


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## DwarfHammer (Mar 3, 2020)

Nutation said:


> 1. I didn't see any definitive link between The Timeless Child and The Doctor, just the Master's say-so.
> 2. Were there Brain of Morbius stills? I was thinking of that episode, but didn't back up to step through frame-by-frame. If so, group them with Doctor Ruth, but still no definitive ties to The Timeless Child.
> 3. It's awfully soon to be invalidating The Time of the Doctor.
> 4. Susan? Clara? I don't think Chibnall has any respect for the established history of the show.




Number 4 exactly. He has no respect for the show or the characters. He’s just doing sensational writing.  It’s like a bad soap opera where we’re waiting for the next absurd twist or truth to be revealed.


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## wicked cool (Mar 4, 2020)

The magicians got cancelled-big ratings hit this season/high production costs. Killed off a major character last year that many viewed as a "progressive wish". I was a huge fan of this show based on books and stuck with knowing they watered down/changed the history etc. This show had a big following at one point

True it is syfy and that doesn't amen as much as BBC but ratings do matter especially to advertisers.


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## Morrus (Mar 4, 2020)

wicked cool said:


> True it is syfy and that doesn't amen as much as BBC but ratings do matter especially to advertisers.



The BBC doesn’t have advertisers.


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## wicked cool (Mar 4, 2020)

ok my mistake
I agree it wont be cancelled but doing some homework ratings matter? Just viewing stories form the past 5 years 

I could see it be moved to a different time slot 

last week people were watching and there was evidence of a dropoff mid episode based on viewers coming back for another show afterwards


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## Son of the Serpent (Mar 4, 2020)

wicked cool said:


> ok my mistake
> I agree it wont be cancelled but doing some homework ratings matter? Just viewing stories form the past 5 years
> 
> I could see it be moved to a different time slot
> ...



Something very extreme is going to happen within no more than 2 years.  I can guarantee that.

Aparently over the course of the most recent season (STRICTLY JUST DURING THAT SEASON-sorry.  Cant stress that enough.) alone, dr who is estimated to have lost over half of what was their current fan base at the beginning of that season.

What they are doing right now...something about it really doesnt work.  Could be a lot of things but SOMETHING is not working.  Multigenerational fanbases of that size dont typically just sublimate like that for no reason.  The popularity of the show is seriously in danger of dying and not coming back unless there is a course correction and fast.


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## wicked cool (Mar 5, 2020)

I don't think they care. The message is all that matters
the message is strong female characters & less white male characters, blatant political messages  and history will be rewritten

Dr Who, Star wars, terminator, ghostbusters, birds of prey etc-the problem is for the most part you alienate a chunk of your fanbase, you have horrible scripts and writing and you are destroying your franchises due to box office bombs

Alien 1&2-Strong female character, good script, Loyal fanbase-Problem with this is the scripts went downhill


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## Mallus (Mar 5, 2020)

wicked cool said:


> ... the message is strong female characters & less white male characters...



When I was growing up all my media heroes were white men. Spock & Kirk, Bond, James Bond, Rick Blaine in his bar over in Casablanca.

The thing is, I'm not a white man. I can't pass for a white man, even, though I'm told I can easily pass for Chinese (but I'm not Chinese).

So whenever read the complaint about 'less white male characters', I gotta admit my first thought  is: What the hell is wrong with these people? Why can't they identify with a protagonist who isn't white or isn't a guy or who might even be a woman of color (gasp!). Because, if you're not a white guy, you've learned to do this your entire life. And it's fine. It's not a bad thing. Heck, I prefer Mr. Spock to Mr. Sulu, even though I resemble and share a bit of heritage with Mr. Takei and not Mr. Nimoy.

But sometimes it's nice to see yourself onscreen (and it's not like there's a shortage of white guys in media).

And if that alienates a chunk of the fanbase, then that particular chunk of the fanbase has problems that making The Doctor a white guy from Gallifrey again won't fix.



> Alien 1&2-Strong female character, good script, Loyal fanbase-Problem with this is the scripts went downhill.



Do you really think Ripley circa Aliens won't catch heat if the film were released today? You'd have a legion of guys online defending Carter Burke against than mean, unfeminine girl emasculating him (and then totally winning Mary Sue-style over yet another strong woman, the Xenomorph Queen, while the only other surviving white guy lies ripped in half in pool of milk-colored blood).


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## Son of the Serpent (Mar 5, 2020)

Mallus said:


> When I was growing up all my media heroes where white men. Spock & Kirk, Bond, James Bond, Rick Blaine in his bar over in Casablanca.
> 
> The thing is, I'm not a white man. I can't pass for a white man, even, though I'm told I can easily pass for Chinese (but I'm not Chinese).
> 
> ...



I dont think she would catch heat.  Shes not a completely bald faced mary sue.  Shes an actually well written and acted, as well as conservatively realistic character.  Droves of people like her even today.  So yeah.  You're missing the point.

Ps:  i believe in aliens 2 there is actually a character who although legitimately tough is clearly intended to mock people who like mary sues and she does so quite effectively.  She dies like the rest if i remember correctly.  Or at least needs ripley to save her.  I believe both happen.  Its been a while since i watched though.  Either way i remember that she acheives her rhetorical function.


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## wicked cool (Mar 5, 2020)

no as fans were clamoring for ripley to return-there was an alien script that would have brought her and hicks back but that got shelved for Prometheus 2.Main characters in those were strong femal characters and not Mary sues like Rey

I don't want to see the day were we return to the silly scream queens (my kids laugh when the heroine trips and flees when the killer is chasing them) and I don't want to see the days return where the first character killed in that movie was a minority and the white guy was left standing in the end

I want Night of the living dead where the last survivor is the smartest or the luckiest and I don't care what color or sex they are

the female narrative works such as the hunger games. 

im sorry but these companions on new Dr who are terrible. 

Yaz-sorry awful compared to almost every supporting companion and not as good as supporting characters on torchwood

Mickey smith way more interesting than Ryan-Its not race its acting

these characters are boring. The 5th Dr had 3 companions at a time and I'm sorry it worked better. Adric, Nyssa and Tegan were better characters. When Tegan left the show I kept hoping she would come back

Ive been following this show for a long time and its bad and its destroying itself


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## Morrus (Mar 5, 2020)

This is _not_ going to turn into yet another derailment into somebody ranting about diversity in media. Take that crap elsewhere, please.


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## DwarfHammer (Mar 5, 2020)

Mallus said:


> When I was growing up all my media heroes were white men. Spock & Kirk, Bond, James Bond, Rick Blaine in his bar over in Casablanca.
> 
> The thing is, I'm not a white man. I can't pass for a white man, even, though I'm told I can easily pass for Chinese (but I'm not Chinese).
> 
> ...




You are absolutely right. I will never be able to enjoy doctor who after what chibnal did to it. It’s just the way it is. I won’t be able to enjoy the character. I
Enjoy Luke Cage and cyborg and many others. It’s when they switch things up. Let’s have a black James Bond. I don’t like that. Create a new character like they did with John Stewart. Don’t rename him Hal Jordan. Love Captain Jack. Don’t twist the doctors character and make him something he’s not.  Black panther love him. Wonder Woman, lover her.  Just keep making cool characters and not ruin ones that already exist. There’s nothing wrong with being a man’s man. Make Clinton Eastwood and rocky like characters with balls. Wyatt Earp and so forth.


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## Morrus (Mar 5, 2020)

DwarfHammer said:


> You are absolutely right. I will never be able to enjoy doctor who after what chibnal did to it. It’s just the way it is. I won’t be able to enjoy the character. I
> Enjoy Luke Cage and cyborg and many others. It’s when they switch things up. Let’s have a black James Bond. I don’t like that. Create a new character like they did with John Stewart. Don’t rename him Hal Jordan. Love Captain Jack. Don’t twist the doctors character and make him something he’s not.  Black panther love him. Wonder Woman, lover her.  Just keep making cool characters and not ruin ones that already exist. There’s nothing wrong with being a man’s man. Make Clinton Eastwood and rocky like characters with balls. Wyatt Earp and so forth.



I literally _JUST_ wanted against do this. Don't post in this thread again, please.


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## Son of the Serpent (Mar 5, 2020)

So the thing im about to mention isnt supposed to be political.  Just prefacing with that.  Its a major item in the works (if the rumor is true).  A major spoiler.  But also one that from a business perspective worries me.  Because i think it will be highly unpopular.  Shows need popularity like we need air.  Without it they WILL suffocate.

There is a rumor with a fair bit of weight behind it that a major retcon is in the works to make it such that there was in fact actually a single incarnation of the doctor prior to what weve always thought was the first one.  If its true the first doctor will in fact actually have been a female.

Again.  Still not getting political.

My question is, regardless of whether you think this would be a cool idea or not, does anyone else else think that just might kill the show?  By "kill" i dont mean "make bad".  By "kill" i mean cause fan drop off to the point the show is deemed unprofitable.

A third time.  NOT POLITICAL.  Its business savvy concern.  And also just a really big potential spoiler.


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## Mallus (Mar 5, 2020)

Son of the Serpent said:


> My question is, regardless of whether you think this would be a cool idea or not, does anyone else else think that just might kill the show?  By "kill" i dont mean "make bad".  By "kill" i mean cause fan drop off to the point the show is deemed unprofitable.



Would it kill the show? No. Or at least I seriously doubt it.

Will the show end soon? Probably not. But maybe?

The salient thing is we're now in the 15th(?) year of the Doctor Who revival, and eventually production will cease until the show is resurrected again. When you consider how much the business, audience, and culture has changed since 2005, whatever else you might think about the recent direction & changes on the show, Doctor Who's second act has been a smashing success, and the answer to why it ends when it ends is ultimately going to be: time.

(as for 'retconning' the Doctor's origin, given how the Doctor's story has been added to over time -- pop quiz: in what season, err, series was their home planet/species invented? -- I don't think that's ever the proper term for developments to the character)


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## Tonguez (Mar 5, 2020)

Nutation said:


> 1. I didn't see any definitive link between The Timeless Child and The Doctor, just the Master's say-so.
> 2. Were there Brain of Morbius stills? I was thinking of that episode, but didn't back up to step through frame-by-frame. If so, group them with Doctor Ruth, but still no definitive ties to The Timeless Child.
> 3. It's awfully soon to be invalidating The Time of the Doctor.
> 4. Susan? Clara? I don't think Chibnall has any respect for the established history of the show.




They were Brain of Morbius flashbacks and thats something I really like about the episode. While Chibnall may be upsetting some viewers of the new run, the fact that he has made references back to the old Doctors is just brilliant imho.
The former lives have been referenced a number of times, notably in Brain of Morbius but also through Sylvester McCoys run where he intimates that he was more than just another Time Lord and that he was there at the beginning alongside Omega and Rassilon. It also confirms that the Time Lords are elitist gits who elevated themselves above their Shabogan peers and named themselves Lords of Galifrey and on that point is Tecteun = Omega?

Anyway I liked it and I like the new mystery of Doctor Who? Whittaker has had a fine run as the Doctor and to compare her to Colin Baker is just stupid. Yeah Doctor Ruth was a bit bland but Sacha Dawhans Master was captivating.




Mallus said:


> (as for 'retconning' the Doctor's origin, given how the Doctor's story has been added to over time -- pop quiz: in what season, err, series was their home planet/species invented? -- I don't think that's ever the proper term for developments to the character)




Troughton era introduces the Time Lords but their home planet isnt named
Its was during the Pertwee era that he mentions the name Galifrey when he first meets Sarah Jane (so season 11).


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## DwarfHammer (Mar 5, 2020)

Morrus said:


> I literally _JUST_ wanted against do this. Don't post in this thread again, please.



I guess inclusive means no straight white men allowed. Screw your and your forum.


----------



## Mallus (Mar 5, 2020)

Tonguez said:


> Troughton era introduces the Time Lords but their home planet isnt named
> Its was during the Pertwee era that he mentions the name Galifrey when he first meets Sarah Jane (so season 11).



Wow, I didn't realize the name Gallifrey wasn't introduced until season 11. Thanks!


----------



## Morrus (Mar 5, 2020)

@Son of the Serpent, would you and your* seven* warnings for anti-inclusive content care to PM me and explain why you "liked" the statement "I guess inclusive means no straight white men allowed. Screw your and your forum"? Am I to assume you share this position?


----------



## Son of the Serpent (Mar 5, 2020)

Mallus said:


> Wow, I didn't realize the name Gallifrey wasn't introduced until season 11. Thanks!



Actually i missed that too.  Wild...


----------



## MNblockhead (Mar 5, 2020)

I thought Whitaker did a good job as the Doctor, especially in this season.  I really liked Graham as a companion and Yaz is fine.  I find Ryan weak and forgettable, just have a hard time caring about his character.  My main gripe is that I just didn't find most of the shows in the past two seasons very good. I did, however, like the last three episode of season 12.


----------



## Son of the Serpent (Mar 5, 2020)

Morrus said:


> @Son of the Serpent, would you and your* seven* warnings for anti-inclusive content care to PM me and explain why you "liked" the statement "I guess inclusive means no straight white men allowed. Screw your and your forum"? Am I to assume you share this position?



So...ive actually pm'd you before and i suspect you may not recieve notification when i do so for reasons not established.  I would not respond to red text normally in a thread, pinging you (ive realized since the last time i ping'd umbran, i think, thats incorrect) but since im not sure you know i pm'd you thats the only reason im responding in thread.  As a courtesy to let you know i pm'd you just a bit ago.  I dont respond to mod messages in thread typically anymore.  Only doing it with you because im not sure you know i pm'd you.  Ok.  Thats all i was gonna say.  Just trying to let you know.


----------



## wicked cool (Mar 5, 2020)

I want to apologize to all. I sometimes get carried away with my passions (Dr Who is one).Ive been a huge fan since day 1 of the Tom Baker era .Baker and the Delgado master are probably my favorite heroes and villians from tv


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## Nagol (Mar 5, 2020)

MNblockhead said:


> I thought Whitaker did a good job as the Doctor, especially in this season.  I really liked Graham as a companion and Yaz is fine.  I find Ryan weak and forgettable, just have a hard time caring about his character.  My main gripe is that I just didn't find most of the shows in the past two seasons very good. I did, however, like the last three episode of season 12.




I really like Whittaker in the role.  I think Yaz could be a good companion if given more screen time.  I have little to no interest in the other two and their relationship.  I also think each character is getting starved for screen time by all the others.

I think there were some problematic changes to the role of the Doctor (specifically last season where the Doctor's knowledge and expertise became unreliable -- it's not that the Doctor didn't know something it's that the Doctor knew stuff that was wildly incorrect) and to how the Doctor and crew relate to their environment (all of them wandering around in 21st century clothing in King James' time during a witch scare and absolutely no one commented.  Really? The companions used to at least pretend to dress appropriately).


----------



## Zardnaar (Mar 5, 2020)

Problems not Jodie and co but the writing. It went downhill late Matt Smith and fell off a cliff with Capaldi and never recovered. Wife pulled the plug 2 episodes into last season but  had been considering it for a while.

  New Who peaked a decade ago?  Doesn't matter who the Doctor is if the writings bad.


----------



## MNblockhead (Mar 6, 2020)

Yes.  Capaldi could have been a great Doctor if the writing were better. I think Whitaker is making doing her best to polish a turd. The last few episodes show how going she can be given better stories. 



Zardnaar said:


> Problems not Jodie and co but the writing. It went downhill late Matt Smith and fell off a cliff with Capaldi and never recovered. Wife pulled the plug 2 episodes into last season but  had been considering it for a while.
> 
> New Who peaked a decade ago?  Doesn't matter who the Doctor is if the writings bad.


----------



## Zardnaar (Mar 6, 2020)

MNblockhead said:


> Yes.  Capaldi could have been a great Doctor if the writing were better. I think Whitaker is making doing her best to polish a turd. The last few episodes show how going she can be given better stories.




 Yeah Capaldi could have been great. Unfortunately......... the writing.


----------



## MNblockhead (Mar 6, 2020)

Nagol said:


> I really like Whittaker in the role.  I think Yaz could be a good companion if given more screen time.  I have little to no interest in the other two and their relationship.  I also think each character is getting starved for screen time by all the others.




Agree regarding Yaz.  Graham could have been one of the best and most memorable companions if the focused on the loss of his wife and how he brings a mature and thoughtful perspective the craziness surrounding what companions of the doctor are subjected to. Ryan feels shoehorned in. I appreciate what they are trying to do, but it is too much. Ryan may be a good actor, I don't think I've seen him in anything else, but I find the side stories surrounding his personal life tiresome.  

I think it may be because he is the most needy of the characters but there isn't the screen time to develop it properly. He might work better as a companion if he was the only companion. Then the stories of him dealing with his relationships with his adoptive and biological fathers, and with his friends, could be more impactful. 

Not of the actors are terrible and Whitaker and Walsh are both very good in my opinion. There is just too much shoehorned in to let them develop their characters properly.


----------



## Nagol (Mar 6, 2020)

Zardnaar said:


> Problems not Jodie and co but the writing. It went downhill late Matt Smith and fell off a cliff with Capaldi and never recovered. Wife pulled the plug 2 episodes into last season but  had been considering it for a while.
> 
> New Who peaked a decade ago?  Doesn't matter who the Doctor is if the writings bad.



I agree about the writing trajectory.  I think it is interesting that the writing stayed terrible under Whittaker, but changed how it was terrible.  Moffat as showrunner seemed to be aiming for a much younger (pre-teen probably) demographic with little thought to plausibility or sense and a lot of eye-rolling moments.  Chibnall instead attempts to create a more shallow experience (if you had told me Doctor Who could get more shallow a few years ago I would have laughed and laughed ).


----------



## Morrus (Mar 6, 2020)

MNblockhead said:


> Yes.  Capaldi could have been a great Doctor if the writing were better.



He’s my favourite Doctor by far. His last two seasons were excellent.


----------



## BookBarbarian (Mar 6, 2020)

It was interesting how Clara went from one of my favorite companions when paired with Smith to one of my least favorite with Capaldi even though I loved Capaldi.

I do think that's indicative of the writing taking a shift for the worse.


----------



## Morrus (Mar 6, 2020)

BookBarbarian said:


> It was interesting how Clara went from one of my favorite companions when paired with Smith to one of my least favorite with Capaldi even though I loved Capaldi.
> 
> I do think that's indicative of the writing taking a shift for the worse.



I was never keen on her.


----------



## BookBarbarian (Mar 6, 2020)

Morrus said:


> I was never keen on her.



I thought she was intelligent, capable, positive, and (my favorite) not interesting in dating the Doctor. Then suddenly she was just a downer. Negative and whiny in practically all scenarios. Bill was a breath of fresh air after that.


----------



## BookBarbarian (Mar 6, 2020)

DwarfHammer said:


> I guess inclusive means no straight white men allowed. Screw your and your forum.



This is probably unfair to you since I suspect you can't respond.

Having spotlight on a small amount of non straight white men doesn't kick straight white men out of the party. The vast majority of the world will still cater to us. 

I once thought differently but looking back I'm surprised I did. Inclusion and diversity have been a big part of Sci-Fi for a long time. Asimov taught it with Robots, Star Trek with Aliens, Marvel with Mutants. Still there was a time when I had trouble with it.


----------



## Morrus (Mar 6, 2020)

BookBarbarian said:


> I thought she was intelligent, capable, positive, and (my favorite) not interesting in dating the Doctor. Then suddenly she was just a downer. Negative and whiny in practically all scenarios. Bill was a breath of fresh air after that.



Bill was bloody awesome. My favourite New Who companion in an excellent season with a wonderful performance by Capaldi. That season was Who at its very best. So was Donna. I found Clara and Martha to both be quite boring. And Rose was fantastic, of course.


----------



## GreyLord (Mar 6, 2020)

I didn't really care for Clara as a companion.  Perhaps it was that it seemed at times the roles of companion and doctor got reversed and instead of the Doctor being the cocky one, it was the companion instead.

On the otherhand, I absolutely LOVE the three companions we have now.  I'm not sure why people don't think they have enough screen time or work well.  I think they are aces above the last doctor's companions for the most part.

Yaz has had a LOT Of character development IMO.  She has a back history dealing with family, herself (and we had the episode that dealt with mental illness and showing her overcoming it and really was inspirational I felt in many ways with her story there) and other issues.  She's intelligent and really a great companion, perhaps one of the best from what I've seen.

I also like the dynamic between Ryan and Graham.  It's the rocky start but developing relationship...all at the same time where they are dealing with the loss of their loved one.  That relationship has really cemented.  In a way I see them as two sides of the same companion, both reflecting different issues of loss, love, and relationships from two opposite ends of the spectrum (old and young, husband or son, etc).

I honestly like the new companions for the Doctor.


----------



## Mallus (Mar 6, 2020)

Personally I loved Capaldi's time as the Doctor. He's got at least 3 or 4 of the franchises best episodes to his credit.


----------



## Zardnaar (Mar 6, 2020)

Mallus said:


> Personally I loved Capaldi's time as the Doctor. He's got at least 3 or 4 of the franchises best episodes to his credit.



 I liked him as the doctor, loved Missy but the stories were a bit meh.

 The tank, guitar scene with Capaldi was quite funny. Wasn't a fan of the Cybermen plot. 

 Haven't really minded any of the companions but Rose and Donna were so good.


----------



## Morrus (Mar 6, 2020)

Mallus said:


> Personally I loved Capaldi's time as the Doctor. He's got at least 3 or 4 of the franchises best episodes to his credit.



Absolutely. He's the strongest actor to hold the part. His first season was weak, but when he hit his stride there were a couple of really superb seasons.

There's one episode - the one on Gallifrey where he's in the barn - that he doesn't say a thing for the first 15 minutes. Just acts with his presence. And you don't even realise he hasn't said anything, because he's a strong enough actor that he didn't need to. A wonderful, wonderful performance.

Any Missy? Superb! My favourite iteration of the Master of all time. Capaldi and Michelle Gomez. Just sublime.


----------



## Son of the Serpent (Mar 6, 2020)

I think my favorite companion was cap'n jack harkness.


----------



## doctorbadwolf (Mar 6, 2020)

wicked cool said:


> next week looks like a filler episode. for about a minute when the massive download started I thought it was a cyberman plan.
> 
> why did he give them his dead mother? cant figure out the whole sending the historical figures to the forest/inside world.
> 
> ...



My theory is that timelords are the descendants of humans who were altered by time travel. You know, like how Rory and Amy's kid was a timelord.


----------



## Ryujin (Mar 6, 2020)

doctorbadwolf said:


> My theory is that timelords are the descendants of humans who were altered by time travel. You know, like how Rory and Amy's kid was a timelord.




I've wondered if they might do that reveal for years now.


----------



## doctorbadwolf (Mar 6, 2020)

Ryujin said:


> I've wondered if they might do that reveal for years now.



Me too. Even before River Song's origins were revealed, but once they showed us that two humans coneiving a child in the midst of time travel leads to a timelord (is she technically a timelord, they never say, but she certainly seems to be one), it's pretty strongly implied as a possibility.


----------



## Vael (Mar 6, 2020)

BookBarbarian said:


> It was interesting how Clara went from one of my favorite companions when paired with Smith to one of my least favorite with Capaldi even though I loved Capaldi.
> 
> I do think that's indicative of the writing taking a shift for the worse.




How strange, I go completely the other way. Clara as the "Impossible Girl" was bothersome, it was another annoying mystery which didn't do much for me. And the romantic tones between her and Smith frustrated me. Clara was at her best with Capaldi in her last season, I didn't care for Capaldi's first season that much.

I haven't noticed a downward trend in the writing, but I've noticed a flattening. Early seasons of nuWho have had superlatively fantastic episodes, but also absolute bombs. The last Capaldi season, and the two seasons of Whittaker have been pretty evenly good for me. Nothing has captivated me as much as say "Blink", but nothing has frustrated me as much as "Fear Her", for example.


----------



## Ryujin (Mar 6, 2020)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Me too. Even before River Song's origins were revealed, but once they showed us that two humans coneiving a child in the midst of time travel leads to a timelord (is she technically a timelord, they never say, but she certainly seems to be one), it's pretty strongly implied as a possibility.




It would go a long way to help explain The Doctor's affinity for a crappy race like Humanity.

I believe it was mentioned that River only had one heart.


----------



## Son of the Serpent (Mar 6, 2020)

doctorbadwolf said:


> My theory is that timelords are the descendants of humans who were altered by time travel. You know, like how Rory and Amy's kid was a timelord.



Is river song really a time lord and also is she really their kid?  I feel like there is a whole lot of *WEIRD* surrounding her even by doctor (let alone time lord even) standards.  I feel like she and bad wolf are somehow slightly not mortal (i mean not the mortal KIND of being.  Not just immortal.  Sorta how the demons like the beast are outright somehow higher in a way than normal life.).  A liiitle bit god like.  Demigods basically (so somewhere between humans/time lords/housecats vs things like the beast/the tentacle beings from another universe in classic who (cant remember their name).) somewhat like omega became.

Also totally not playing favorites or anything.  I actually dont even like her character.  But somehow river actually seems like MORE than a time lord.  Is that weird?


----------



## Son of the Serpent (Mar 6, 2020)

I apologize for the parantheses yarnball.


----------



## Son of the Serpent (Mar 6, 2020)

doctorbadwolf said:


> My theory is that timelords are the descendants of humans who were altered by time travel. You know, like how Rory and Amy's kid was a timelord.



Also for the record i actually think that timelords are part human and a few other things.  But i also think it goes vice verse.  That is to say that those other things are also part time lord.  Due to time travel im saying i think they essentially have the same thing going on that illithids have wich is to say that their temporal origin has become indeterminate.  Its a paradoxical loop where timelords, humans, and a couple other races keep progenerating eachother and then diverging "the long way round".


----------



## Son of the Serpent (Mar 6, 2020)

On a side note, i think neothelids may actually still be extraordinarily immature illithids (just less so than tadpoles).  I think THOON's true nature may actually be that its the only known example we have of a fully adult illithid pure form.


----------



## doctorbadwolf (Mar 7, 2020)

Ryujin said:


> It would go a long way to help explain The Doctor's affinity for a crappy race like Humanity.
> 
> I believe it was mentioned that River only had one heart.



Humanity is fantastic, so no explanation needed, there.

And River may have one heart, but she regenerates, and has a natural affinity for the TARDIS and such, she’s definitely some kind of Timelord.


----------



## Son of the Serpent (Mar 7, 2020)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Humanity is fantastic, so no explanation needed, there.
> 
> And River may have one heart, but she regenerates, and has a natural affinity for the TARDIS and such, she’s definitely some kind of Timelord.



She actually directly states the explanation for her affinity for the tardis.

She states very clearly (and at some point so does the doctor) that she is "PART TARDIS".

So thats where the affinity comes from.  Literally part tardis is the claim.

Pretty sure shes part time lord too though.


----------



## Son of the Serpent (Mar 7, 2020)

Son of the Serpent said:


> I think my favorite companion was cap'n jack harkness.



Actually...after really really thinking it over...i think jack harkness is actually the onky companion i like as a character.  I hate every other companion's guts and find them incredibly annoying.  Only just now did sit down think it through and realize harkness was the only exception though.  Huh...why is it that all the companions are so annoying to me?  Really weird.

Oh well


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Mar 19, 2020)

So, now the "secret" is out about the true nature of the Doctor. I know a lot of people hate it aggressively so, is that the reason there were no new posts in a while? 

I have some mixed feelings. I kinda liked the idea that the Doctor was a special Timelord because of the choices (s)he made for her life. He didn't need a "special" origin. It's a big retcon in ways, but in ways that's also not really a big deal to me - Gallifrey has been a dead place for most of the series, and I haven't actually seen much of the previous shows to notice how much it might retcon, because it basically retcons nothing in the "new" series.


----------



## Son of the Serpent (Mar 19, 2020)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> So, now the "secret" is out about the true nature of the Doctor. I know a lot of people hate it aggressively so, is that the reason there were no new posts in a while?
> 
> I have some mixed feelings. I kinda liked the idea that the Doctor was a special Timelord because of the choices (s)he made for her life. He didn't need a "special" origin. It's a big retcon in ways, but in ways that's also not really a big deal to me - Gallifrey has been a dead place for most of the series, and I haven't actually seen much of the previous shows to notice how much it might retcon, because it basically retcons nothing in the "new" series.



With how bad the show is currently tanking i think in a few seasons they'll retcon his new origin (along with a lot of other things.  The shows looking pretty shaky on its legs right now)  It will be one of the fastest "i take it back"s in the history of double retcons.


----------



## Morrus (Mar 19, 2020)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> is that the reason there were no new posts in a while?



I’ve mainly be driven out of this thread, and others (Star Trek, Star Wars, etc), by hatewatchers. They just make the conversation unfun and largely impossible.


----------



## Herschel (Sep 23, 2020)

Morrus said:


> He’s my favourite Doctor by far. His last two seasons were excellent.




This, so much this. I didn't like his first series much, but LOVED The final two. He and Missy were brilliant together, as well, easily my favorite Doctor/Master combo. Jodie's cool, but her first series I missed Peter. I really dislike the three seasons and next format because you get "intro season where they figure it out" followed by "Yay, now we're talking" leading to "Farewell tour? We just got to know the real you!" and then "who's the new person?" all over again. 

I like Graham and Yaz as companions, but admit Ryan often seems like the character-building prop for the other two.


----------



## Herschel (Sep 23, 2020)

Morrus said:


> Bill was bloody awesome. My favourite New Who companion in an excellent season with a wonderful performance by Capaldi. That season was Who at its very best. So was Donna. I found Clara and Martha to both be quite boring. And Rose was fantastic, of course.




The more I watch the older episodes in comparison, the less I like Rose. Bill and Donna are my favorites, but Rose just feels a bit weak. Of course that may be shaped by my love of Lucie Miller in the Big Finish 8th stories, who did the "girl from the projects" in a way I enjoyed more.


----------



## Herschel (Sep 23, 2020)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> So, now the "secret" is out about the true nature of the Doctor. I know a lot of people hate it aggressively so, is that the reason there were no new posts in a while?
> 
> I have some mixed feelings. I kinda liked the idea that the Doctor was a special Timelord because of the choices (s)he made for her life. He didn't need a "special" origin. It's a big retcon in ways, but in ways that's also not really a big deal to me - Gallifrey has been a dead place for most of the series, and I haven't actually seen much of the previous shows to notice how much it might retcon, because it basically retcons nothing in the "new" series.




But remember, just as The Doctor lies, The Master is even more duplicitous. And crazy. It could be his conspiracy theory rather than reality.


----------



## Umbran (Sep 23, 2020)

Herschel said:


> But remember, just as The Doctor lies, The Master is even more duplicitous. And crazy. It could be his conspiracy theory rather than reality.




He is crazy, but he isn't _stupid_.  And I doubt the writers are apt to say, "It was all nonsense," after making such a big deal of it - that's unsatisfying storytelling.  It is possible the Master didn't have it all correct, but there'll be significant truth to it.


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## Herschel (Sep 24, 2020)

Umbran said:


> He is crazy, but he isn't _stupid_.  And I doubt the writers are apt to say, "It was all nonsense," after making such a big deal of it - that's unsatisfying storytelling.  It is possible the Master didn't have it all correct, but there'll be significant truth to it.




Maybe, maybe not. It could be the Master's attempt to manipulate The Doctor for some other purpose. He's ever the schemer (in most incarnations) with an almost hypnotic way of twisting others' beliefs and memories. There are so many ways they can go with this.


----------



## Umbran (Sep 24, 2020)

Herschel said:


> Maybe, maybe not. It could be the Master's attempt to manipulate The Doctor for some other purpose.




I think, "That huge thing we writers dropped on you last season?  Forget it, it was all a lie." would go over like thunderous flatulence in front of a parole board to the audience.



> He's ever the schemer (in most incarnations) with an almost hypnotic ...




It isn't "almost" hypnotic.  Canonically, _"Both the Doctor and the Master have been shown to be skilled hypnotists, although the Master's capacity to dominate – even by stare and voice alone – has been shown to be far more pronounced."_  - The Master (Doctor Who) - Wikipedia


----------



## MarkB (Sep 24, 2020)

Umbran said:


> I think, "That huge thing we writers dropped on you last season?  Forget it, it was all a lie." would go over like thunderous flatulence in front of a parole board to the audience.



About as well as "Hey, you know how we killed off the Time Lords, and then had this big-deal plot line about bringing them back? Well, now they're dead again. And also cybermen, for some reason."


----------



## Herschel (Sep 24, 2020)

Umbran said:


> I think, "That huge thing we writers dropped on you last season?  Forget it, it was all a lie." would go over like thunderous flatulence in front of a parole board to the audience.




While it wouldn't be the first time, more like a half-truth, which has a LOT of options.


----------



## Umbran (Sep 24, 2020)

Herschel said:


> While it wouldn't be the first time, more like a half-truth, which has a LOT of options.




Which s what I already suggested with, "It is possible the Master didn't have it all correct, but there'll be significant truth to it. "

So, sure, agree with me.  I'm good with that.


----------



## Herschel (Sep 25, 2020)

Umbran said:


> Which s what I already suggested with, "It is possible the Master didn't have it all correct, but there'll be significant truth to it. "
> 
> So, sure, agree with me.  I'm good with that.




Yeah, I think we're pretty darned close for the most part, though I also wouldn't be surprised if they did a total left-turn either.


----------



## Hussar (Oct 10, 2020)

Glad this thread came back.  I just recently got to watch all the episodes.  I thought the second season was cool and I want to see where they are going with the "reveal".  

It absolutely astounds me that people complain about retcons in a TIME TRAVEL show.  If there was ever a show where retcons make perfect sense, it would be Doctor Who.  And, really, what does this actually change?  How does the Doctor being the Timeless child actually retcon anything?  That's the part I don't really get.  Nothing changes.   The origins of the TIme Lords has never really played any part in any of the New Who and barely played a part in old.    Why does this engender such strong reactions.

It's like the Doctor coming back as a woman.  If there was any character, anywhere in fiction, where gender swapping made sense, it's the Doctor.  It's really sad that people lost their naughty word over this.


----------



## Vael (Oct 10, 2020)

I'm just eagerly awaiting more Doctor Who. I've really liked Jodie Whittaker's take, and her "fam". Apparently the holiday special (moved to New Year's Eve, I think) was already filmed, and the next season is supposed to start filming this month.


----------



## Morrus (Oct 10, 2020)

Is there not a Christmas special this year then? I haven't been keeping track. I always like Doctor Who as part of my Christmas Day tradition while recovering from Christmas Dinner.


----------



## trappedslider (Oct 11, 2020)

Morrus said:


> Is there not a Christmas special this year then? I haven't been keeping track. I always like Doctor Who as part of my Christmas Day tradition while recovering from Christmas Dinner.



looks like there is a special, but it may not be aired at christmas 
	

	







						Doctor Who Christmas special 2020 release date, cast, trailer, plot: When is it out?
					

THE DOCTOR WHO CHRISTMAS SPECIAL is on the cards for 2020 and some clues have been given as to what fans can expect. When is the Doctor Who Christmas special out?




					www.express.co.uk


----------



## Herschel (Nov 30, 2020)

Yeah, it looks like New Year's Day again, which is a bummer. A little Doctor in an isolated Christmas would be nice.

The trailer looks solid. Chris Noth is a bit over-the-top, and I have some suspicions. 

I think it's been officially announced that Graham and Ryan will be leaving after this episode. I wonder if Ryan gets killed and Graham feels his relationship with the Doctor has cost him "everything" and walks away. That might be an Adric-type kick in the gut. I also think it could happen while the Doctor is locked away and either happens before or during the rescue. Either feelings of "You weren't there" or "We got you back, but at what cost?" This could be a fairly "Doctorless" episode, or at least having a parallel storyline for the majority of it.


----------



## Morrus (Nov 30, 2020)




----------



## MarkB (Nov 30, 2020)

Morrus said:


>



It kind-of makes it look like the Doctor will hardly even be there.


----------



## nevin (Nov 30, 2020)

I'm just so sad the best they could come up with for a season ending was killing  Gallifrey AGAIN!  There's an entire universe out there and the writers keep doing the same things over and over.   The whole timeless child thing really didn't do anything.  The council had already given the Doctor effectively unlimited regenerations.  There is so much in the old episodes just waiting for a twist or two.  I like the new doctor but whoever is coming up with the stories should be fired.   Disassembing a Daleks armor with impact wrenches.  Really?   eradicating life on Gallifry for what the 3rd or 4th time?  

 I've always hoped that River sent a clone like the ones at the drilling site that had all the memories and thought they were the originals, to the Library and the Doctor doesn't know that.   That would be an awesome episode. 

And why doesn't his child ever come back.  wouldn't that be a great episode.  I might forgive the lousy Gallifrey ending if this season we found her(or him) on a new planet of timelords that she helped establish.  So much good historical stuff to spin stories with and they seem to be hell bent on only doing "new things" and too many of them are not new they are just repeated ideas.   And for goodness sakes, inject some of the hope from the first few seasons back into the universe.  
The Doctor has always been some of my favorite SciFi.  I hope they get off of autopilot and start having more fun and heroics and less running because they can't fix anything.


----------



## Hussar (Dec 2, 2020)

Considering how little Gallifrey actually appears in Doctor Who, even in the old serials, it wasn't exactly around all the time, who cares if Gallifrey dies?  It has a nice impact on The Doctor, who is now alone in the universe again - truly alone since she apparently wasn't even really Gallifreyan at all.  How do you deal with that?  Plus, now, we have the mystery of where did the Doctor truly come from?  Plus, the other versions of the Doctor running around that the current Doctor can't remember.  

All sorts of very cool plot lines.  I really am failing to see the problem.


----------



## nevin (Dec 2, 2020)

Yeah. All alone for the 3rd time since they rebooted the series.  Insert Dead horse into Tardis and move on sharply.  There must be 50 plot lines left open and unexplored and we keep going back to the same one. With bad scripts to drag it down even further


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## Echohawk (Dec 2, 2020)

More like 500 plot lines left open. Heck, even after 57 years, we still don't really have a particularly solid explanation of why the Doctor left Gallifrey in the first place. Or what happened to the rest of her family. I mean Susan has to have had parents, right? Why didn't she or the Doctor ever mention them? I'm also vaguely surprised that Gallifrey hasn't been destroyed more frequently than it has. Sure, it has some interesting defenses (I assume, mostly), but the Doctor has made so very many powerful enemies over the years, that it seems almost unrealistic that Gallifrey isn't under constant attack from nearly omnipotent, extra-dimensional, pan-universal forces out for revenge. Hmmm... then again maybe that explains why _Earth_ is constantly being threatened... the Doctor seems a lot fonder of Earth than she is of Gallifrey.


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## Truth Seeker (Jan 3, 2021)

JODI QUITS ---Needs confirmation!! Whoa, just after the Holiday Special.


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## Morrus (Jan 3, 2021)

Fixed link!








						Doctor Who star Jodie Whittaker quits after three years as Time Lord
					

EXCLUSIVE: Doctor Who bosses are planning for the Time Lord's fourteenth regeneration after Jodie Whittaker decided she will leave after the next series which airs in the UK in the Autumn later this year




					www.mirror.co.uk


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## Truth Seeker (Jan 3, 2021)

Uhm, took me a minute to understand the new linking setup work, but thanks!!!


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## GreyLord (Jan 7, 2021)

So, did anyone besides me watch the Doctor Who special these past holidays?

Most of the past two seasons has kept my interest, but this special didn't quite keep me involved at some points.  I was even kind of bored about mid way through.  Maybe it was just me this time. 

No spoilers for those who haven't seen it, but I'm wondering if they are going to do a revival of Torchwood.

More to say on that idea, but that would involve me needing to include spoilers.


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## Omand (Jan 8, 2021)

I watched it.  It was not as engaging as other past specials, or perhaps I should say that parts of it were not as engaging.  Some very nice parts too though.

I also caught the possible whiff of a Torchwood revival.  Not sure how I feel about that.  I loved the original series because of the character interaction.  Then they started killing everyone off.  I watched but was neutral about the Children of Earth mini-series, and the US produced mini-series was Torchwood in name only.  I watched it, but I really wish it had never happened.  How would they come back from that.

Cheers


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## delericho (Jan 9, 2021)

I watched the special, and was pleasantly surprised - from the trailer I had expected it to be awful, and it fortunately wasn't that.

That said, I didn't think it was particularly great either. It pretty much seemed to be a mash-up of lots of other Dalek stories, with very little new to offer. That may just be an inherent problem when using villains that have appeared so often over the years - there's just not much left to do.


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## Tonguez (Jan 9, 2021)

delericho said:


> I watched the special, and was pleasantly surprised - from the trailer I had expected it to be awful, and it fortunately wasn't that.
> 
> That said, I didn't think it was particularly great either. It pretty much seemed to be a mash-up of lots of other Dalek stories, with very little new to offer. That may just be an inherent problem when using villains that have appeared so often over the years - there's just not much left to do.




Yeah, more or less this. It was engaging enough but it wasnt particularly innovative and thus kind of predictable. I also agree that because of the Daleks being such iconic villains in a long standing show they dont offer any more surprises - we've seen them fly, we've seen them hybridize with humans, we've seen them get emotions, we've seen them fight each other and we all know that the Doctor will come up with some solution to getting rid of the threat so everyone makes it home for tea.,

I do wonder if its time to change things up again and come up with an entirely new approach to the show. Maybe having a Doctor on Earth, working support to a Torchwood team would be a nice change.


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## MarkB (Jan 12, 2021)

Tonguez said:


> I do wonder if its time to change things up again and come up with an entirely new approach to the show. Maybe having a Doctor on Earth, working support to a Torchwood team would be a nice change.



Jon Pertwee called. He'd like his first three seasons back.


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## Morrus (Jan 12, 2021)

Not sure about John Bishop as the new companion.


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## MarkB (Jan 12, 2021)

Morrus said:


> Not sure about John Bishop as the new companion.



They managed to make Catherine Tate work as a companion, to the extent that I was sad to see her leave, so the potential is there. I just don't think Chris Chibnall is the person to pull it off.

And missing out on the first ever all-female TARDIS crew feels like a mis-step.


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## Tonguez (Jan 12, 2021)

MarkB said:


> Jon Pertwee called. He'd like his first three seasons back.



Yes, thats the inspiration for it

but maybe a little less Venusian kung fu


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## GreyLord (Jan 14, 2021)

Spoiler



On the Torchwood note, with what happened to Ryan and Graham at the end, and their interest in things around the world, do you think they would ALSO be incorporated into a Torchwood show?  I feel that's something indicated or hinted at.  A team like that could have Captain Jack, Mickey Smith, Martha Jones, and rounding it out with Ryan and Graham...though with that set I'd hope they don't kill them all off as they have with others previously.



Just some thoughts on Torchwood (obviously with spoilers...so be that as it may...just so people are aware).

I think there could be a strong hint (perhaps they are pushing for it strongly or maybe it is already in the worlds) that they want to do a Torchwood show with the ending of the Special.


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## Hussar (Jan 17, 2021)

One could always hope.  Children of Earth still stands as one of the best written SF shows of all time.


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