# Doctor Who Series 6 Fall run



## Herschel (Aug 28, 2011)

Ummm, WTF?!?!?!?!?! That was ...... bizarre, to say the least. I can't decide if it was brilliant or I absolutely detested it (Let's Kill Hitler). There's obviously much more coming even though it looks like Moffat has seemingly painted himself in a corner again.


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## Remus Lupin (Aug 28, 2011)

Oh, I thought it was a great episode. One of the top two or three so far of the season. Lots of good lines, decent plot development, some answers about River, and some tantalizing threads to follow for future episodes.

As I explained to my wife, when she asked what the First Question was, that no one knows it, but of course we all know the answer!


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## Herschel (Aug 28, 2011)

Yeah, I'm just not sure I like the River backstory as they've done it. She's probably my favorite character and I'm feeling a bit underwhelmed with her part in the episode. It also can't wrap up that cleanly and quickly.


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## GMforPowergamers (Aug 28, 2011)

Herschel said:


> Yeah, I'm just not sure I like the River backstory as they've done it. She's probably my favorite character and I'm feeling a bit underwhelmed with her part in the episode. It also can't wrap up that cleanly and quickly.




I am a little unhappy. River and Jack are my two fav things to come out of the new run, and they seam to have no idea how to handle her.

Regening into her, as is was a bit of a cop out, them leaving her is worse. I have been hopeing for a 'young' river as a compainian for atleast a little while. 

And a poision that no one ever cured, that stops regeneration, and is topical... and no one EVER weaponized it??? Shoot super soakers full of it at time lords for gods sake.

and the riveal of River growing up with amy and rory seamed forced, and even more hoaky then normal who.

all in all it seamed like some of it was way too quick. 1st eap back and no reason to look for the baby...um except we know that there is no way AMY would let them keep and raise her...even though she turns out to be river.

and can someone please explain to me why oh ehy anyone smart enough to make a time traveling miniturizzeing robot is dumb enough to think they can kill hitler???

WORSE... pre ww2 the Doctor told hitler the british are comeing...did he just start the war?

and did mel/river have no parents? did amy and rory go to school with a homeless familyless girl?  OR are there big gaping plot wholes you can drive a mack turck through??


I really liked the idea of Dr River Song, the Doctor's long time compainon and lover, maybe wife, being the daughter of two compainions... but it totaly doesn't work if she is never there. I had imagined this season ending with amy and rorey getting the baby back, rasieng her, then when the Dr comes to visit she becomes a new compainon and works on her doctorit inbetween adventures...

remeber the Doctor was at every one of her birthdays... um well...maybe only in this form. 

And the "i want to kill you" to "I want to save you" was soo quick I think I got whip lash just watching it.


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## MarkB (Aug 29, 2011)

I liked it a lot, but felt that it completely wasted its setting in its focus on the main characters.

I did think the Starship Humanoid with miniaturised crew was a neat idea.



GMforPowergamers said:


> and can someone please explain to me why oh ehy anyone smart enough to make a time traveling miniturizzeing robot is dumb enough to think they can kill hitler???




Well, first, the Justice Wossnames didn't kill their intended victims they - as stated - caught up to them near the end of their timelines and "put them through hell", which seemed to consist of some form of agony beam.

And second, just before the TARDIS entered stage left, the crew of the Tesselactor had just realised that they were too early in Hitler's timeline, and were about to abort.


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## Mallus (Aug 29, 2011)

I am incapable of not loving any work of fiction with lines like these:

"You've got a time machine, I've got a gun. What the Hell? Let's kill Hitler."

And...

"At least I'm not a time-travelling, shape-shifting robot operated by miniaturized cross people, which I have got to admit, I didn't see coming. "

And...

"Okay. I'm trapped inside a giant robot replica of my wife. I'm really trying not to see this as a metaphor."

The episode was exuberant, sentimental, a dash dark (and not because it was set in Nazi Germany), and more than a little meta. Custom-suited for my purposes.


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## Herschel (Aug 30, 2011)

Don't get me wrong, there was a lot of great lines in it and the Hitler red herring was fine but Mels is Melody will be River all wrapped up that quickly and cleanly? That doesn't give the character or story the treatment it deserves. I mean the instantanious change from I'm sent to kill you to I'm going to save you by giving up so much is just a bit too far-fetched for my tastes.


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## Mallus (Aug 30, 2011)

Herschel said:


> Don't get me wrong, there was a lot of great lines in it and the Hitler red herring was fine but Mels is Melody will be River all wrapped up that quickly and cleanly? That doesn't give the character or story the treatment it deserves.



I thought it was enough, close to perfect.

There was a wonderful metaphor going on in the episode, which might have been obscured by Hitler in the cupboard, the robot full of miniaturized cross people, and the poisoned Fred Astaire routine: Amy and Rory are looking for their daughter. It turns out she was an important part of their lives from the very beginning, they just didn't realize it, it wasn't the way expected, and they come into this knowledge after it's too late to change any of it. They're stuck with the lives they've led, despite knowing a bloke with a time machine.

Except for knowing the bloke w/the time machine part, this is pretty much true of everyone's life. It's not what we expect, it's all we have, and, if we're lucky, we can look back with our memories and find the good and meaningful things we didn't know the significance of at the time. 

I didn't need (any more of) the machinations of plot. We know how River dies, how she was born, that she was kinda-sorta raised by, or at least alongside of, her parents, we now know we've been watching the story not only two people falling in love, but how they redeemed each other. Anything more would be going through the motions.

There's also something lovely about the title; it's not just an attention-grabber and a red herring, it dovetails straight into the overarching theme. On the surface, it's the line that every SF fan has always wanted to hear in their favorite show or story (which had time travel). And, I'm sure, it's a line every Who writer has always wished they had the freedom to _write_. It speaks to the power of the whole genre: we can do _anything_, set any wrong to right, look at the endless redemptive power at our disposal!

Except what can you _never_ do in a time travel story? Kill Hitler. Or your grandparents. You should even be careful around butterflies in the Pleistocene. There are things we cannot undo without losing ourselves.

Maybe it's just me, but I love the way Mels could _say_, "Let's kill Hitler", the way it could be given voice, but, in the end, not _done_, because even with fantasy, with a time machine, there's a hard limit to what can be taken back. Sometimes redemption is reconciliation, it is letting go, making peace, falling in love with your assassin, giving your life for your victim, and realizing the only childhood you'll share with your daughter is the one you had... 

I'll stop now !



> ...is just a bit too far-fetched for my tastes.



I'll say this: Moffat combines sentimentality and gamesmanship into something I find irresistible. I want to believe!


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## Herschel (Aug 30, 2011)

That's just it. I've been able to roll with his stuff up to that point but it was broken right then and there for me.

Plus, it would have been nice to be able to later introduce a younger River just to keep the thread going off and on for years.


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## Pinotage (Aug 31, 2011)

My head hurts. I'm finding this all very confusing, but then at least that's the style of Doctor Who these days. Only by the final episode do you really figure out what's going on.

Can somebody explain something to me, though? The whole River/Doctor premise is that he meets her for the first time when she's going to die, and she meets him for the first time when he's much older. So does this episode count as the first actual meeting between River and the Doctor. Or are they referring to a different 'version' of River, i.e. a good River?

Pinotage


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## MarkB (Aug 31, 2011)

From River's chronological viewpoint, her first face-to-face meeting with the Doctor (not counting when he meets her baby Ganger-duplicate in "A Good Man Goes to War", though in purely sensory terms that would have felt like a face-to-face meeting) would be when he meets the girl in the spacesuit at the end of "The Impossible Astronaut".


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## Remus Lupin (Aug 31, 2011)

No, that can't be right. She transforms from Mels to River in front of the Doctor, so that would be his first face to face meeting with her as River. If she had successfully killed him by the lake, she wouldn't be seeking him out to kill him at a later point in her personal chronology, would she?

That said, the lake may be the earliest point in time and space that she meets him.

What concerns me is that if the Doctor's death is a fixed point (like Jack Harkness and the destruction of the Mars colony if I'm understanding correctly), then it's unalterable. I think this sets up serious problems for the series down the road, assuming that there will be further regenerations for the Doctor in seasons to come, how to we get back to the 11th Doctor 200 years further into the Doctor's personal chronology?

I'm sure Moffett has some kind of timey-wimey way of getting around it in the end, but puzzling it out is sure making my brain hurt!


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## MarkB (Aug 31, 2011)

Remus Lupin said:


> No, that can't be right. She transforms from Mels to River in front of the Doctor, so that would be his first face to face meeting with her as River. If she had successfully killed him by the lake, she wouldn't be seeking him out to kill him at a later point in her personal chronology, would she?




I think it would be unwise to make assumptions as to what happened at the lake, especially when it comes to the identity of someone whose face we didn't see. Just because history records River as being the Doctor's eventual killer, that doesn't make it true.

Young Melody may have occupied that space suit back in 1969, but there could have been anyone (or even no-one) in there when it appeared in 2010.


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## Herschel (Sep 1, 2011)

Or the Doctor himself in the suit and it was his 'ganger at the lake.


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## Remus Lupin (Sep 1, 2011)

I'm trying not to make any assumptions about what happened on the lake, though I think it's highly likely that whatever the truth of the matter is, the Doctor is not permanently and irrevocably dead. But I am concerned about that "fixed point" concept. If the information by the little people in the human suit was right, then that's the definitive date of the Doctor's death, and that has me concerned.

But as for who "killed" him, I'm totally open to the idea that it isn't River at all. But that just reinforces the point -- that the lake was not his first meeting with her.


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## MarkB (Sep 1, 2011)

Remus Lupin said:


> I'm trying not to make any assumptions about what happened on the lake, though I think it's highly likely that whatever the truth of the matter is, the Doctor is not permanently and irrevocably dead. But I am concerned about that "fixed point" concept. If the information by the little people in the human suit was right, then that's the definitive date of the Doctor's death, and that has me concerned.
> 
> But as for who "killed" him, I'm totally open to the idea that it isn't River at all. But that just reinforces the point -- that the lake was not his first meeting with her.




I didn't say it was. I was referring to when the Doctor is confronted with the girl in the spacesuit at the end of the first episode of the series, back in 1969, and Amy panics and tries to shoot her.

We didn't really get to see much about that meeting, since the following episode skips forwards six months and only shows glimpses of it in flashback.


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## Herschel (Sep 7, 2011)

Is it just me, or can Mark Gatiss not write a coherent or decent ending to his stories? This one had some good stuff but like the Lazarus story the ending just felt tacked on. There was a nice set up with The Doctor talking to George but they got away from that a little quickly for my tastes. Still enjoyable though.


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## Mark CMG (Sep 8, 2011)

Didn't River say in an earlier episode that the first time she met the Doctor they kissed?  And that it was very memorable, or some such words?


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## Herschel (Sep 11, 2011)

Tonight's episode was rather brilliant. The choice presented to Rory was rather awful yet necessary. Rule #1: The Doctor lies. I like the way they even made the smiling Rorybot look sad.


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## Morrus (Sep 11, 2011)

Herschel said:


> Tonight's episode was rather brilliant. The choice presented to Rory was rather awful yet necessary. Rule #1: The Doctor lies. I like the way they even made the smiling Rorybot look sad.




Meh. A Time Lord in a TARDIS can't do anything about a time based problem. It's in his race's name. If he doesn't have expertise in that, what good is he?

Why not just contact someone running the hospital and explain the mistake? And why have a setup where such a stupid mistake can be made? Hey, pick a random button to decide whether we imprison you for life or not!

Stupid plot.


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## Herschel (Sep 11, 2011)

This one was all about making choices and the relationships between the characters. The plot was irrelevent and wasn't meant to be the focus IMO. Amy getting out-of-time could have happened any number of ways. I think it also sets up Amy & Rory's departure from the series.


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## Mark (Sep 11, 2011)

Amy and Rory need to settle down after this season.


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## Morrus (Sep 11, 2011)

Herschel said:


> This one was all about making choices and the relationships between the characters. The plot was irrelevent and wasn't meant to be the focus IMO. Amy getting out-of-time could have happened any number of ways. I think it also sets up Amy & Rory's departure from the series.




Oh, I agree the character work was excellent. And the makeup on future Amy was incredible.


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## Plane Sailing (Sep 11, 2011)

Morrus said:


> Oh, I agree the character work was excellent. And the makeup on future Amy was incredible.




Best, most realistic 'aged' makeup I've seen on anyone, anywhere.


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## nerfherder (Sep 12, 2011)

Plane Sailing said:


> Best, most realistic 'aged' makeup I've seen on anyone, anywhere.



Yep - I certainly can't think of a better example off the top of my head.


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## Silverblade The Ench (Sep 12, 2011)

Amy's definately a gal you'd like to grow old _with_, yum! 
Ok, so I'm an old romantic...with a thing for redheads  


Good way they showed her having become so bitter because such isolation would drive you insane...which also played back on the Doctor: he knows he need companions to avoid similar issues.

Morrus
well we'd have had no story if it was that easy and 
a) Doc was afraid of lethal disease with no cure
b) Murphy's Law still rules even in the future!


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## Mallus (Sep 12, 2011)

Possibly my favorite episode of the Who 2005+ era, if only for the "You're trying to turn me into you" line, which I never expected to hear on the show. They've done horror many times before, but never quite like this.


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## Plane Sailing (Sep 17, 2011)

I liked todays episode for the modern twist on Minotaur in the Labyrinth, and for the compassion the Doctor feels towards Amy and Rory at the end.

Thinking back on it, I don't think I really 'got' the whole point of the 'praise be to him' conversion thingy that victims underwent, nor the explanation for how the other four ordinary people ended up there, so I find it less satisfying in retrospect than I did at the time. I did like the Doctor in it though.


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## MarkB (Sep 17, 2011)

So, what's up with the Doctor liking apples again now? Or was that just a replica of an apple?


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## Plane Sailing (Sep 18, 2011)

I wonder what the doctor might have seen in room 11 (11 for 11 regenerations?). I'd suspect that the thing he might be most scared of is himself. After all, he has been responsible for a couple of effective genocides (or more), and he realises in this episode how dangerous he is to his companions - a theme which Rory amplifies too.


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## Morrus (Sep 18, 2011)

Plane Sailing said:


> I wonder what the doctor might have seen in room 11 (11 for 11 regenerations?). I'd suspect that the thing he might be most scared of is himself. After all, he has been responsible for a couple of effective genocides (or more), and he realises in this episode how dangerous he is to his companions - a theme which Rory amplifies too.




Yup, I figured it was himself. "Of course. Who else would it be?" Not "what". Definitely himself.


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## Herschel (Sep 19, 2011)

MarkB said:


> So, what's up with the Doctor liking apples again now? Or was that just a replica of an apple?




I wondered that too. I'm thinking it's another Moffat non-continuity error setting up something, like the jacket in the Byzantium. Maybe the 'ganger is still in the Doctor's place or some such.


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## Mark Hope (Sep 20, 2011)

Plane Sailing said:


> I wonder what the doctor might have seen in room 11 (11 for 11 regenerations?). I'd suspect that the thing he might be most scared of is himself. After all, he has been responsible for a couple of effective genocides (or more), and he realises in this episode how dangerous he is to his companions - a theme which Rory amplifies too.




When he opened the door, you could hear the TARDIS Cloister Bell ringing.  So I figured his bad dream was the TARDIS in mortal danger.  Like the Doctor said: "Who else?"  The one thing that's going to freak him out is putting his wife in danger...


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## MarkB (Sep 20, 2011)

I think the question that would be even more interesting than "Who/what does the Doctor most fear?" is "Who/what does the Doctor have faith in?"

The maze kept him in the game, it knew that he had faith which the minotaur could convert and feed upon. I wonder what, after all he's seen, the Doctor still believes in.


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## Herschel (Sep 27, 2011)

He prefers to be called Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All. 

Cute episode with the ending being the most interesting part with the set-up for next week. It could be tremendous or a colossal mess. When The Doctor said 'it's time to go' at the end it looks like he really meant 'it's time to go to the lake meeting after about 37 more minutes of screen time.' I'm curious to see how Moffat ties this one together but then another season/series will be in the books.


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## Pinotage (Sep 27, 2011)

Herschel said:


> He prefers to be called Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All.
> 
> Cute episode with the ending being the most interesting part with the set-up for next week. It could be tremendous or a colossal mess. When The Doctor said 'it's time to go' at the end it looks like he really meant 'it's time to go to the lake meeting after about 37 more minutes of screen time.' I'm curious to see how Moffat ties this one together but then another season/series will be in the books.




But didn't the Impossible Astronaut say something that the Doctor at the lake who dies being several hundred years older? I don't see how the Doctor at this age can be going to the lake, unless they're mixing Doctor timelines and not telling us.

Pinotage


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## Morrus (Sep 27, 2011)

Pinotage said:


> But didn't the Impossible Astronaut say something that the Doctor at the lake who dies being several hundred years older? I don't see how the Doctor at this age can be going to the lake, unless they're mixing Doctor timelines and not telling us.
> 
> Pinotage




The Cyberman episode was 200 years after the previous episode. He spent 200 years travelling around.


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## MarkB (Sep 27, 2011)

But we haven't seen Billy the Fish yet!


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## BrooklynKnight (Sep 28, 2011)

Morrus said:


> The Cyberman episode was 200 years after the previous episode. He spent 200 years travelling around.




Did they depict that in any way because I think I missed that..


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## Walking Dad (Sep 28, 2011)

MarkB said:


> But we haven't seen Billy the Fish yet!




Which also there were more adventures with River Song, as she remembered this encounter in the first episode of this season.


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## Morrus (Sep 28, 2011)

BrooklynKnight said:


> Did they depict that in any way because I think I missed that..




Can't remember; I guess they must have done because the BBC's episode description says "After traveling for 200 years and leaving messages for Amy Pond across time and space, the Doctor realizes his time is up, its time to settle down and accept his future at Lake Silencio. . . . . .But not before one last goodbye. The Doctor travels to England and visits Craig and Sophie, who are now happily married and struggling with parenthood. Not everything is well, as the Doctor soon finds himself miraculously working at a shop and battling Cybermen."

And _Confidential _definitely said it more than once.


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## GreyLord (Sep 28, 2011)

I'm wondering after last week if they'll have a two parter...where much is handled with the season finale...only to have you wait till Christmas for the wrap up...wouldn't that be a kicker!

Is it scheduled to be the normal length, or is it going to be a longer episode.  I'm trying to figure how they'll wrap it all up in a single episode of normal length.


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## BrooklynKnight (Sep 29, 2011)

Morrus said:


> Can't remember; I guess they must have done because the BBC's episode description says "After traveling for 200 years and leaving messages for Amy Pond across time and space, the Doctor realizes his time is up, its time to settle down and accept his future at Lake Silencio. . . . . .But not before one last goodbye. The Doctor travels to England and visits Craig and Sophie, who are now happily married and struggling with parenthood. Not everything is well, as the Doctor soon finds himself miraculously working at a shop and battling Cybermen."
> 
> And _Confidential _definitely said it more than once.




It wasn't obvious in the show itself at all and that leaves me wondering if he wasn't lying about the 200 years from the very start. If Amy and Rory knew he was about to walk to his Death a few days after he dropped them off she *never* would have left. It makes sense as a lie....plus I don't think the Doctor could honestly go 200 years without a Companion. He's too lonely.

Maybe they flubbed? Eh, I guess it doesn't really matter, I'm still enjoying the whole ride.


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## GreyLord (Sep 29, 2011)

BrooklynKnight said:


> It wasn't obvious in the show itself at all and that leaves me wondering if he wasn't lying about the 200 years from the very start. If Amy and Rory knew he was about to walk to his Death a few days after he dropped them off she *never* would have left. It makes sense as a lie....plus I don't think the Doctor could honestly go 200 years without a Companion. He's too lonely.
> 
> Maybe they flubbed? Eh, I guess it doesn't really matter, I'm still enjoying the whole ride.




Who says he didn't have a companion during that time.  It's a clean slate for them to make another show, fill in later, or whatever they want to do with it.


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## MarkB (Sep 29, 2011)

GreyLord said:


> I'm wondering after last week if they'll have a two parter...where much is handled with the season finale...only to have you wait till Christmas for the wrap up...wouldn't that be a kicker!
> 
> Is it scheduled to be the normal length, or is it going to be a longer episode.  I'm trying to figure how they'll wrap it all up in a single episode of normal length.




This Saturday's show is normal length, and will be followed by the opening episode of the new season of Merlin.


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## GreyLord (Sep 29, 2011)

MarkB said:


> This Saturday's show is normal length, and will be followed by the opening episode of the new season of Merlin.




Thanks.  That means if the wrap up takes longer...perhaps they'll do a tie in to the Christmas special...or not.  I have no idea how they'll wrap it all up in one episode...but I'm certain that if they do wrap it up, they obviously have some idea on how they are going to do it.


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## BrooklynKnight (Sep 29, 2011)

GreyLord said:


> Who says he didn't have a companion during that time.  It's a clean slate for them to make another show, fill in later, or whatever they want to do with it.




I'm not sure I follow. How is it a clean slate? He dropped off Amy and Rory because he knows he keeps ruining his companions lives. He dropped them off intentionally so he could be alone so they could live their lives. PLUS if he knew he was going to go see them in their past he couldn't bring them along.

Also one of the fundamental features of Doctor Who has been that we never really know how long each generation of the Doctor will last. Just how long is Matt Smith gonna stick around for that 200 year spin-off?

It just doesn't make sense, it's really bad writing and Moffat is usually great and sneaking in foreshadowing and clues. A lie makes more sense.

It doesn't really matter though. I love the show and I'm looking forward to the finale, counting the minutes even. This one thing just became a pet peeve but I'll get over it. It's no worse a continuity issue then any of the dozens in Trek or Wars or Gate.


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## Pinotage (Sep 29, 2011)

BrooklynKnight said:


> I'm not sure I follow. How is it a clean slate? He dropped off Amy and Rory because he knows he keeps ruining his companions lives. He dropped them off intentionally so he could be alone so they could live their lives. PLUS if he knew he was going to go see them in their past he couldn't bring them along.
> 
> Also one of the fundamental features of Doctor Who has been that we never really know how long each generation of the Doctor will last. Just how long is Matt Smith gonna stick around for that 200 year spin-off?
> 
> ...




Well said. My sentiments also.

Pinotage


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## Morrus (Sep 29, 2011)

BrooklynKnight said:


> I'm not sure I follow. How is it a clean slate? He dropped off Amy and Rory because he knows he keeps ruining his companions lives. He dropped them off intentionally so he could be alone so they could live their lives. PLUS if he knew he was going to go see them in their past he couldn't bring them along.
> 
> Also one of the fundamental features of Doctor Who has been that we never really know how long each generation of the Doctor will last. Just how long is Matt Smith gonna stick around for that 200 year spin-off?
> 
> ...




It's not a continuity issue. That requires a continuity error; there is none.

You not liking a plot decision is not a continuity issue; it's a preference.

I agree I'd have liked to see a sequence depicting the passage of 200 years. But we didn't; we were simply told about it. I'd be with you if you said it was dealt with unsatisfactorily; but not when you say it's a continuity error.

It was set 200 years after the previous one. Whether or not you believe that it was, it was.


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## Mark CMG (Sep 29, 2011)

The dept store ep seemed like filler to me with a few brief bright spots (the name "Stormageddon" for instance) and some cleanup of details.  Of course, there will always be better and lesser episodes in any series.  I look forward to seeing how they work out the death so they can move on.


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## Remus Lupin (Sep 30, 2011)

The whole episode was worth it JUST for "Stormageddon."


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## Vyvyan Basterd (Sep 30, 2011)

I liked that it was the "old" cybermen. Plus a cybermat! I was just watching old Troughton episodes and was reminded of the little silver cyberbugs. It was cool to see one included in the new series.


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## Plane Sailing (Sep 30, 2011)

Mark CMG said:


> The dept store ep seemed like filler to me with a few brief bright spots (the name "Stormageddon" for instance) and some cleanup of details.  Of course, there will always be better and lesser episodes in any series.  I look forward to seeing how they work out the death so they can move on.




I'm sorry it wasn't good for you, but I loved it - I really like the ones where they show that particular side of the doctor. I loved the Shssss!, I loved the Doctors easy way of making friends with people, I liked the whole thing really.


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## Mark CMG (Oct 1, 2011)

Plane Sailing said:


> I'm sorry it wasn't good for you, but I loved it - I really like the ones where they show that particular side of the doctor. I loved the Shssss!, I loved the Doctors easy way of making friends with people, I liked the whole thing really.





I think part of my problem with this one was that the characters all seemed to lack depth, even the Doctor, but that's a fault of the writing, obviously.  Craig was rather one-note ("You need help, Doctor, and when you're around something is up!)  The rest of the Dept Store Employees were all rather cliche.  Even the moment where the Doctor saw Amy seemed very forced.  It felt like they had a handful of moments they wanted in the episodes and then wrote the script to accomodate them.  The Shhh thing seemed comedically formulaic as did the slapstick-fighting scenes both in the house with the cyber-crawler and in the ship with the overused "You have to fight it!  You can do it!  I know you can!" faux-failure then the baby crying giving renewed strength tripe.  I did like seeing the old cybermen.

The episode with the ship-maze-Minotaur-god alien, on the other hand and for example, was loaded with good writing and solid characters from top to bottom and an excellent new take on the classic mythology.  So, too, The Girl Who Waited was phenomenally written and acted from start to finish.  The episode with the kid and the doll house in the cupboard was more in keeping with a filler episode that still manages to work despite being predictable on some levels.  The kid and cupboard reminded me of Time Bandits.  Anyway, the series still has lots to offer even after so many years of massaging the same old premise but this episode just didn't hold up as well for me.  I'm glad some people liked it.


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## Plane Sailing (Oct 1, 2011)

Well, I liked the finale. I like the way they handled everything. I liked the Chekovs gun. I like the final conclusion, and I even liked the question.

I'm a pretty happy bunny. Here's to shadows!


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## Plane Sailing (Oct 1, 2011)

Well, I liked the finale. I like the way they handled everything. I liked the Chekovs gun. I like the final conclusion, and I even liked the question.

I'm a pretty happy bunny. Here's to shadows!


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## GreyLord (Oct 2, 2011)

Which question?



Spoiler



You mean, who is Doctor Who?

If they stick to where they were going in the previous series and he is one of the Big 3 Timelord Dieties/Immortals/whatever you want to call them, then I think that would be answered to a degree.

I'm not certain why that shouldn't ever be answered however.  It would explain how he had the power to lock them away...as well as why Rassilon could come up with a way for them to escape (only to be foiled by the Doctor).

I didn't quite like how it ended, a fixed point where he dies...well...not quite so fixed then since he didn't die...it was the robot ship instead.  Is it really a fixed point then?

The next thing though is, Is Riversong really married to him now...or not?  Did he go back and marry her afterwards?  She didn't marry the Robot now, did she...or was that a proxy marriage?


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## Dausuul (Oct 2, 2011)

I thought the lead-in to The Question was very clever. "The first question, the oldest question in the universe, hidden in plain sight, the question that must never be answered." 



Spoiler



Because it is, after all, the oldest question in the show; hidden right in the title; asked before the first episode even aired and still not answered fifty years later. "Doctor--_Who?_"

Not that I think we're actually going to get an answer when the time comes. I certainly hope not! It would be a huge letdown.

I think next season may be Matt Smith's last, though. "The fall of the eleventh" almost has to mean the death of the Eleventh Doctor, and Moffat won't want to keep that hanging fire for too long. Wonder who they'll pick for number twelve?


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## Herschel (Oct 2, 2011)

Weird episode, I thought we'd get more "old" cameos after Charlie but no. They cleaned the season up fairly well and there was more River. Matt Smith is signed through the 2013 season so he'll be back for a couple more, minimum.


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## Fast Learner (Oct 2, 2011)

GreyLord said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't quite like how it ended, a fixed point where he dies...well...not quite so fixed then since he didn't die...it was the robot ship instead.  Is it really a fixed point then?




If the fixed point actually is 



Spoiler



everybody in the universe knows The Doctor died


 then I think it still holds.


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## BrooklynKnight (Oct 3, 2011)

So here's another thing to consider....which explains how River keeps getting out of Prison...



Spoiler



Since the Tesselator or Tesselactor or whatever you call it, was the one that got shot it kinda stands to reason that the entire crew of that ship was witness to the "still point in time" and saw the entire exchange between The Doctor and River. In fact they would have been present at the aborted universe as well. Thusly, they'd know River was innocent and most likely facilitate her ability to leave jail whenever she needs to. She stays in jail during the day to sell the story.



Also, I'm going to predict that 



Spoiler



We "might" see more of River Song for the next full season, and that with 11's death her story will end too. I would not be surprised in the slightest if her last episode either mentions or sets up her trip to the Library.


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## Mallus (Oct 3, 2011)

BrooklynKnight said:


> So here's another thing to consider....which explains how River keeps getting out of Prison...



I think the best way to explain River's escape artistry is this:

River Song's story is a fairy tale, a storybook sort of story, or if your feeling Classical, it's myth and she's a sci-fi jailbird take on Persephone consigned to spending half her time in  the underworld and half on wonderful dates across the universe with a dashing man in a blue box.

This is the proper context for understanding the how's and why's of her life.

Trying to make another kind of sense of out it is... well, challenging, for starters. I'm sure some people would find it fun, but for me it's nothing but an invitation to a big headache.


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## Remus Lupin (Oct 3, 2011)

I certainly do think that it would be great to have a "final" River episode in which the Doctor gives her his sonic screwdriver as she is en route to the Library. But as I recall she said something in "Silence in the Library" that led me to believe that this would happen with a different incarnation of the Doctor than either of the others we've seen. 

Whether that would work in terms of the timeline as it currently stands though, is another question, given that *this* Doctor apparently spent a good chunk of two centuries of his own timeline filling up River's Journal with her. 

I suppose there's no reason to believe that there aren't still pages to be filled.


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## BrooklynKnight (Oct 3, 2011)

I don't care what Doctor Who Confidential says. I think the 200 year thing is a lie. Even River says. The Doctor always lies, and so does she. 

Until we get some on screen confirmation that he actually spent 200 years wandering around....I'm not gonna believe it. Taking into account everything else going on, and everything we know about him, it just makes no sense what so ever unless he just lied.


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## Morrus (Oct 4, 2011)

BrooklynKnight said:


> I don't care what Doctor Who Confidential says. I think the 200 year thing is a lie. Even River says. The Doctor always lies, and so does she.




The Doctor doesn't always lie about everything.  He sometimes lies about some things.

But - meh.  It's OK if you choose not to believe it.  It might involve you screaming at your TV screen next year if he gives his age, but that's your business!


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## BrooklynKnight (Oct 4, 2011)

Morrus said:


> The Doctor doesn't always lie about everything.  He sometimes lies about some things.
> 
> But - meh.  It's OK if you choose not to believe it.  It might involve you screaming at your TV screen next year if he gives his age, but that's your business!




So far how many times has the doctor claimed that 200 years on screen? Was it only that one time or were there other examples?


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## Morrus (Oct 4, 2011)

BrooklynKnight said:


> So far how many times has the doctor claimed that 200 years on screen? Was it only that one time or were there other examples?




Arthur, I'm not trying to convince you of anything.  If you want to believe 200 years didn't pass, that's OK by me.


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## horacethegrey (Oct 5, 2011)

Agh. A little late to the party here. But I thought I'd just pop in and give my take on these last few eps of Series 6. WARNING! SPOILERS BE AHEAD!

*Let's Kill Hitler* - Hmm... Not Moffat's best to be sure, but it does neatly tie up some of the plot threads he's weaved for the past two seasons, and gives a definite origin to the conundrum that is River Song. But the setting of WW2 Germany feels wasted, and am really not impressed with the human robot ship thingy.

But kudos to Moffat for finding a way to give the Doctor regenerations beyond the standard 12 limit, via River's improptu sacrifice for him. 

*Night Terrors* - And this ain't Mark Gatiss' best either, but it's an improvement over _Victory of the Daleks_. I feel though the idea of a alien child wanting to belong with a human family was a missed opportunity. So much potential storywise. Though I do like the doll house bits. Wonderfully creepy.

*The Girl Who Waited* - Now that's more like it. A heartwrenching tale of love and loss with some of the best moments between Amy and Rory. Stellar acting from both Karen Gillan and Arthur Darvill really make this one of the best stories focusing on the Doctor's companions. 

*The God Complex *- Whoa. A terrific reworking of _Thesseus and the Minotaur_ as only Doctor Who can. Some great writing and character work here. Particularly with Amy, in the scene where the Doctor finally breaks her illusions of him and finally lets her grow up. Fantastic. One of DW's best IMO.

*Closing Time* - Nice to see the Cybermen return to being scary. Too bad though I found this episode a bit underwhelming. I liked that they brought back James Corden's Craig from _The Lodger_, one of my fave eps from last season. Too bad he acts like such a stupid prat here, getting himself and his infant son in mortal peril by insisting on hanging around the Doctor. Still, nice to see the Cybermats pop up once more.

*The Wedding of River Song* - As season finales go, this was a bit of a letdown. I do like the idea of time collapsing because of the ensuing paradox of the Doctor not 'dying' at the appointed time. But last season's _The Big Bang_ had a better sense of the universal armageddon than here. As for the Doctor's handy way of cheating 'death', that felt like a bit of a copout. I would have liked for a more creative solution from him, but what's done is done. I really feel this story could have been a two parter. Everything felt a bit rushed. All in all this episode felt more like a setup for Moffat's plans for Season 7 and the show's 50th anniversary, and I do hope he delivers there.

All in all, I'd say season 6 doesn't quite match the quality of season 5. While the Moff's ongoing storyline fell flat in some places, there were some great bits. And the great thing about the Moff's tenure are the brilliant standalone eps from other writers. The aforementioned _The Girl Who Waited_ (Tom Macrae), _The God Complex _(Toby Whithouse), and of course, _The Doctor's Wife_ (by some guy named Gaiman ). 

On the acting front, Matt, Karen and Arthur were all consistently good, and the arcs of their respective characters were resolved in a satisfying way.

So yeah, I'm looking forward to season 7 and the 50th year of Doctor Who. Let's hope it delivers.


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## Plane Sailing (Oct 6, 2011)

One of the things that I'll be looking forward to is a divergence from the way that Russel T Davis build the Doctor up into a colossus bestriding time, known and feared by everyone. It gives them permission to make smaller, clever adventures without having the increasingly insane season-enders of Davis' run


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## MarkB (Oct 6, 2011)

Plane Sailing said:


> One of the things that I'll be looking forward to is a divergence from the way that Russel T Davis build the Doctor up into a colossus bestriding time, known and feared by everyone. It gives them permission to make smaller, clever adventures without having the increasingly insane season-enders of Davis' run




If they can achieve that, I'll certainly welcome it.


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