# WotC Foundry VTT Author Chimes in on OGL 1.1



## Steel_Wind

Posted earlier today on Foundry VTT's Discord Announcement Channel:

===================================
*A Preliminary Statement Regarding The OGL Controversy*
===================================
Hello everyone. Over the past week our team, like many of you, have been closely following the news regarding anticipated updates to the Open Gaming License that has served the TTRPG community for the past two decades. A multitude of voices are rightfully expressing anger about the leaked 1.1 license terms. We are deeply concerned too, the terms of the draft license are wholly unacceptable to the creator community.

We have directly communicated those concerns to Wizards of the Coast. We are committed to supporting our fantastic network of content creator partners many of whom create content for D&D or other game systems using the OGL. We are determined to offer an industry-leading virtual tabletop that supports our users' most beloved game systems to the extent allowed by licensing requirements.

It is unfortunate that Wizards of the Coast has not posted an official statement. Many creators are rightfully feeling as if their livelihoods are under attack. We had wished to share a statement in response to official details posted by WOTC, but after several days of silence on the issue we feel compelled to join our team's voice to this conversation.

We hope that the strong community reaction and lack of official response imply that this dangerous path is being actively reconsidered. Until we have more clarity, it is essential for the community to continue expressing concerns to ensure the seriousness of this issue is understood by decision makers at WOTC and Hasbro. We encourage you to engage respectfully with this issue using the following resources:


The ogl channel in this Discord server where you may discuss this topic.
The #OpenDND website which contains an open letter discussing the issue as well as links to several resources to learn more.
The* #OpenDnD* hashtag on Twitter and other social media platforms.


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## dave2008

I'm glad to hear someone with some authority is stepping up to tell WotC that this is unacceptable.


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## payn

Hmm, are VTTs the real target with OGL 1.1?


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## dave2008

payn said:


> Hmm, are VTTs the real target with OGL 1.1?



I think they are a part of it, but I doubt they are the only target.


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## Sacrosanct

payn said:


> Hmm, are VTTs the real target with OGL 1.1?



The primary one I think. It’s no secret where the market is going, and how VTT is continuing to grow and is the future. They are trying to lock that market down


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## dave2008

Sacrosanct said:


> The primary one I think. It’s no secret where the market is going, and how VTT is continuing to grow and is the future. They are trying to lock that market down



They should do that with a superior product, not by breaking the knee caps of your competitors.


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## Sacrosanct

dave2008 said:


> They should do that with a superior product, not by breaking the knee caps of your competitors.



I agree, but I also know how corporations work.


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## LordEntrails

Personally, I don't blame WotC for trying to reduce what I have seen as a huge .. hole in the current approach of Foundry and other VTTs. I have felt from day 1 it was unethical what people were doing to get WotC content into Foundry and other non-licensed VTTs. I feel it is about time that these people who are taking advantage of technical loopholes finally be made to compete on a fair and level playing field. Other VTTs have licenses, Foundry et al should be required to obtain and comply with such if they are to allow use of WotC IP.


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## EzekielRaiden

Sacrosanct said:


> I agree, but I also know how corporations work.



Indeed. Why do the work of making and marketing an actually superior product, when you can, with a tenth the cost and a few hours of a lawyer's time, deny anyone else the ability to compete with whatever product you produce?


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## Steel_Wind

LordEntrails said:


> Personally, I don't blame WotC for trying to reduce what I have seen as a huge .. hole in the current approach of Foundry and other VTTs. I have felt from day 1 it was unethical what people were doing to get WotC content into Foundry and other non-licensed VTTs. I feel it is about time that these people who are taking advantage of technical loopholes finally be made to compete on a fair and level playing field. Other VTTs have licenses, Foundry et al should be required to obtain and comply with such if they are to allow use of WotC IP.



*Unethical*? As a result of switching over to 5e from PF2 on Foundry VTT in March of 2022, I bought the following on DDB:

PHB
DMG
MM
Tasha's
Xanathar's
Fizban's
Rime of the Frost Maiden
Candlekeep Mysteries
Shadow of the Dragon Queen; and
2 six month Master subscriptions

All of that spent on DDB over the past nine months. Without Foundry VTT? *Not one nickel* would have gone to WotC for that.

Respectfully, what you think to be the case, and what *actually is the case* are two very different things when it comes to Foundry VTT & 5e.


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## bedir than

Steel_Wind said:


> *Unethical*? As a result of switching over to 5e from PF2 on Foundry VTT in March of 2022, I bought the following on DDB:
> 
> PHB
> DMG
> MM
> Tasha's
> Xanathar's
> Fizban's
> Rime of the Frost Maiden
> Candlekeep Mysteries
> Shadow of the Dragon Queen; and
> 2 six month Master subscriptions
> 
> All of that spent on DDB over the past nine months. Without Foundry VTT? *Not one nickel* would have gone to WotC for that.
> 
> Respectfully, what you think to be the case, and what *actually is the case* are two very different things when it comes to Foundry VTT & 5e.



Foundry doesn't enforce those purchases though. People can just load the content in or use stolen versions, right?


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## Steel_Wind

bedir than said:


> Foundry doesn't enforce those purchases though. People can just load the content in or use stolen versions, right?



You could hand-code in the missing feats, spells, class abilities and bonuses if you know how. Few do, fewer still want to bother with it. It's a _massive_ pain in the ass.

The so called "Plutonium" version of pirated material that could be added to Foundry was very much a point-in-time affair in early 2020 and all discussion of it was banned on any of Foundry's many discord channels. It was nigh impossible to keep it working through the many updates to Foundry over that time. The overwhelming majority don't bother and just pay WotC for the content and Mr. Primate to be able to use it. The original Plutonium version does not work any more, and no version of it I have ever seen has been working since the middle of 2020. Atropos went out of his way to ensure any updates to Foundry would break Plutonium in a bajillion ways. It was *very deliberate. *To the best of my knowledge, the pirates largely gave up when Mr. Primate's importer offered a cheap solution for those who would buy the books on DDB.

If you want to get banned on a Foundry Discord channel, type the word "plutonium" in a channel and count the seconds to see how long it takes for a mod to arrive in your discussion area. In the summer of 2020, it was less than 10 seconds. It might be as many as 20 now, I don't really know. I have literally never seen it mentioned in Discord since the summer of 2020. [I am being facetious of course; please don't hassle a mod -- but yes, they will ban your ass for it.]

The overwhelming majority of 5e DMs that want to use Foundry VTT to run their 5e games pay to access the material on DDB as well as the Patreon to ensure it is importable.  You cannot import  a class feature, monster, spell, item, etc, that you do not own on DDB.

I am sure there are those who have limited incomes and just want to run the SRD version of the 5e rules. They don't have to spend money to do that. And they wouldn't otherwise be buying FG2 -- they would just use Roll20 for free with no addons. But for all others? They are paying for it to WotC at full retail via DDB.  There is nothing "unethical" about that. Current subscribers for Mr Primate's patreon is about ~30,000 or so? I think that was the number when @darjr and I were talking about it last month. Perhaps I am mistaken and that was the estimated monthly fee Mr. Primate was earning from his patreon. 

Whatever the case, it indicates that there are a lot of people who are using DDB for Foundry VTT for 5e use.  Those who are using it for PC import only use a free patreon shim by another author so that's more difficult to track.  Whatever the case, it's a lot of people on DDB paying money to WotC to use their content in an online game of 5e.


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## Scribe

Steel_Wind said:


> The overwhelming majority of 5e DMs that want to use Foundry VTT to run their 5e games pay to access the material on DDB as well as the Patreon to ensure it is importable. You cannot import a class feature, monster, spell, item, etc, that you do not own on DDB.




This speaks I think to a lot of people.

The majority, do not pirate things, and actually want to pay to support people.

Its only when corporations get massive delusions of self importance, and over reach, that people start to recoil in disgust.


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## Aldarc

dave2008 said:


> They should do that with a superior product, not by breaking the knee caps of your competitors.



Why pick one or the other when you can try doing both?


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## Velderan

Sacrosanct said:


> The primary one I think. It’s no secret where the market is going, and how VTT is continuing to grow and is the future. They are trying to lock that market down



I'm not saying you're wrong, but it seems weird they just announced DMG content will be unlocked for Roll20 if their plan was to aggressively compete with other VTTs. I'd think they'd keep DMG content exclusive to their upcoming VTT if they wanted another competitive advantage.

I'm not sure what to make of the whole situation at this point.


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## Umbran

Aldarc said:


> Why pick one or the other when you can try doing both?




Because your product is _nowhere near_ done, and you'll sour your market in the meantime because you are forcing them to change and your actions leave them a period of no options?

Get a good product out first, _then_ kneecap the others in the market.  

Or, just _buy_ the best competitor you can in the market - then you don't need to kneecap them.


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## bedir than

Steel_Wind said:


> You could hand-code in the missing feats, spells, class abilities and bonuses if you know how. Few do, fewer still want to bother with it. It's a _massive_ pain in the ass.
> 
> The so called "Plutonium" version of pirated material that could be added to Foundry was very much a point-in-time affair in early 2020 and all discussion of it was banned on any of Foundry's many discord channels. It was nigh impossible to keep it working through the many updates to Foundry over that time. The overwhelming majority don't bother and just pay WotC for the content and Mr. Primate to be able to use it. The original Plutonium version does not work any more, and no version of it I have ever seen has been working since the middle of 2020. Atropos went out of his way to ensure any updates to Foundry would break Plutonium in a bajillion ways. It was *very deliberate. *To the best of my knowledge, the pirates largely gave up when Mr. Primate's importer offered a cheap solution for those who would buy the books on DDB.
> 
> If you want to get banned on a Foundry Discord channel, type the word "plutonium" in a channel and count the seconds to see how long it takes for a mod to arrive in your discussion area. In the summer of 2020, it was less than 10 seconds. It might be as many as 20 now, I don't really know. I have literally never seen it mentioned in Discord since the summer of 2020. [I am being facetious of course; please don't hassle a mod -- but yes, they will ban your ass for it.]
> 
> The overwhelming majority of 5e DMs that want to use Foundry VTT to run their 5e games pay to access the material on DDB as well as the Patreon to ensure it is importable.  You cannot import  a class feature, monster, spell, item, etc, that you do not own on DDB.
> 
> I am sure there are those who have limited incomes and just want to run the SRD version of the 5e rules. They don't have to spend money to do that. And they wouldn't otherwise be buying FG2 -- they would just use Roll20 for free with no addons. But for all others? They are paying for it to WotC at full retail via DDB.  There is nothing "unethical" about that. Current subscribers for Mr Primate's patreon is about ~30,000 or so? I think that was the number when @darjr and I were talking about it last month. Perhaps I am mistaken and that was the estimated monthly fee Mr. Primate was earning from his patreon.
> 
> Whatever the case, it indicates that there are a lot of people who are using DDB for Foundry VTT for 5e use.  Those who are using it for PC import only use a free patreon shim by another author so that's more difficult to track.  Whatever the case, it's a lot of people on DDB paying money to WotC to use their content in an online game of 5e.



Thank you. The test drive I took with a group was back in 2020


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## Sacrosanct

Velderan said:


> I'm not sure what to make of the whole situation at this point.



I think this is the wise choice at this point.


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## Steel_Wind

Scribe said:


> This speaks I think to a lot of people.
> 
> The majority, do not pirate things, and actually want to pay to support people.
> 
> Its only when corporations get massive delusions of self importance, and over reach, that people start to recoil in disgust.



Well, I don't know how true that is. If it's easy to pirate, people will pirate. Just ask anyone in the music industry about the impact of MP3's.

Or anyone in the gaming biz about pirated PDFs, for that matter. I am sure more are pirated than are purchased off of Paizo, Drive Thru or perhaps DMsGuild.

That said, when it comes to that material that represents a true lost sale? I am less persuaded the numbers are as bad as all of that. My guess is that the vast majority of ENWorld users have pirated scanned PDFs of many of WotC's 5e books (if for no other reason that being able to search the OCR text for a word). However, my guess is ALSO that those same people have hardback physical copies and/or DDB versions of them, too.

Is there really lost revenue there? _Some_, sure -- but I doubt the problem is anywhere near as large as it would appear at first blush for either Paizo or WotC products.

All of that said, if an electronic product provides a value, and the value-in-use of that digital product requires that it be from a legitimate source, then people who were going to buy it are overwhelmingly likely to buy it.

In 2023, that will have to do.


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## Seramus

Steel_Wind said:


> That said, when it comes to that material that represents a true lost sale? I am less persuaded the numbers are as bad as all of that. My guess is that the vast majority of ENWorld users have pirated scanned PDFs of many of WotC's 5e books (if for no other reason that being able to search the OCR text for a word). However, my guess is ALSO that those same people have hardback physical copies and/or DDB versions of them, too.



This is me 100%. I purchase the books like a responsible adult, then immediately download a PDF so that I can search for text and have it available on my phone/laptop/etc. The physical books just sit there, almost never getting actually used.


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## Velderan

Steel_Wind said:


> *Unethical*? As a result of switching over to 5e from PF2 on Foundry VTT in March of 2022, I bought the following on DDB:
> 
> PHB
> DMG
> MM
> Tasha's
> Xanathar's
> Fizban's
> Rime of the Frost Maiden
> Candlekeep Mysteries
> Shadow of the Dragon Queen; and
> 2 six month Master subscriptions
> 
> All of that spent on DDB over the past nine months. Without Foundry VTT? *Not one nickel* would have gone to WotC for that.
> 
> Respectfully, what you think to be the case, and what *actually is the case* are two very different things when it comes to Foundry VTT & 5e.



OT, but if you don't mind me asking why did you switch from PF2 to 5e?


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## Seramus

Velderan said:


> OT, but if you don't mind me asking why did you switch from PF2 to 5e?



PF2 has a lot of really great ideas, genuinely interesting and cool innovations. But it still suffers from lots of unnecessary granularity, and feats with tiny tiny bonuses. I really wish I could smash the character creation of PF2 into the main system of 5E and make some kind of glorious/unholy hybrid.

Also, no players. Hard as heck to find players.


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## Steel_Wind

Velderan said:


> OT, but if you don't mind me asking why did you switch from PF2 to 5e?



It was for "political" reasons - though I don't think this is really "politics". @Umbran will correct me if necessary, I'm sure.

[And I apologize in advance if it is]

What happened was last February, Russia invaded Ukraine. Various Western nations announced financial sanctions on Russia and Russians, and in particular, took steps to ensure that it would be _really hard_ to send money to (or get money out of) Russia to and from the West.

About 2-3 weeks after the invasion and as sanctions were being discussed in the media and announced by the UK, Canada, the USA and much of the rest of the West, there was an expansion DLC released for _Wrath of the Righteous, _the PC Game for PF1.  The game is written by Owlcat, a Moscow based developer  and published by its parent, which is a corporation based in Cyprus.  I don't have anything against the devs in Owlcat, but the purpose of our financial sanctions is not to express our outrage to the people of Russia -- it's to make their lives difficult and so make it more difficult for Putin to govern that nation.  And Owlcat's finances are based in Cypus. As a lawyer, I know that is a *RED FLAG.    *

If you know anything about international banking, you know that Cyprus has the most corrupt banking system in the West. If you think you can track money that goes into a Cypriot bank? You can't; not really.

So as the DLC was announced, Paizo shilled for Owlcat -- as I am sure they were contractually obligated to do on both Twitter, via-email and on Paizo's website.

I took exception to this, because in the context at the time -- and at all times since -- sending money in a way that it *certain to reach* ordinary every day Russians just living their lives in Russia has been something that all of us,. collectively, in the West have been morally and legally against doing. Business as usual with Russia and Russians was _not okay._

I posted on this very topic on Paizo's message board to complain about it. Tonya Woldrige *DELETED MY POST* suggesting that I was discussing "politics" and that was not okay on Paizo's boards. *That was a deliberate and convenient lie, imo*.

I cancelled my subscriptions the next day (I like to wait and not do things when I am angry). I ceased all development of a PF2 version of RotRL I was doing as a for pay gig for Foundry VTT, ended all work I was doing on the Automated Animations and SND FX for PF2 for Foundry VTT (free project, I was ~half done) and suspended two Pathfinder 2 campaigns indefinitely.  Another player of mine, who runs _Agents of Edgewatch_ ended his campaign that same day.

This was a difficult decision for me, as many of the top level creative people at Paizo are people I consider to be personal friends. I bear them no ill will -- but this was more than "just business" to me.

And just like that, after being a Paizo superfan and literally owning every product they had ever released, in any format, (including some really obscure ones from 2003) I was out.

If and when the war In Ukraine comes to an end, I will reconsider my position. If, before that should occur, WotC does something really offensive with the OGL 1.1, I will, perhaps, also reconsider.

But for now, that's why I am here, running _Rime of the FrostMaiden_ and _Shadow of the Dragon Queen _via Foundry VTT, and how it is that WotC recently got a whole lot more of my money.


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## Stormonu

Seramus said:


> This is me 100%. I purchase the books like a responsible adult, then immediately download a PDF so that I can search for text and have it available on my phone/laptop/etc. The physical books just sit there, almost never getting actually used.



I purchase more PDF than physical books these days, and certainly whenever I purchase physical copies I ensure I get the PDF along with it (if available). At home, I'll often pull down the book to read, but on the go and at the FLGS, I leave the books behind - I'm too old to be lugging around a 35 lb. backpack anymore.

That 5E doesn't have PDFs is incredibly annoying; hell, I got PDF copies of the GI Joe & Transformers game but can't get Wotc 5E PDFs?  I have purchased Beyond copies of most of the books, but that's only available when online and annoyingly formatted and linked.


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## Seramus

Steel_Wind said:


> It was for "political" reasons - though I don't think this is really "politics". @Umbran will correct me if necessary, I'm sure.



I don't disagree, though I'm saddened that Owlcat got screwed by mere proximity.
That said, I think the topic is _extremely_ political and best avoided here.


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## payn

Steel_Wind said:


> I posted on this very topic on Paizo's message board to complain about it. Tonya Woldrige *DELETED MY POST* suggesting that I was discussing "politics" and that was not okay on Paizo's boards. *That was a deliberate and convenient lie, imo*.



Paizo does not allow political discussions on their boards. Also, unlike EN World, the mods there often delete postings instead of leaving them. That is confusing at times because you have no idea what was moderated, but thats how they roll.

Yes, it is very convenient for some topics.


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## Steel_Wind

payn said:


> Paizo does not allow political discussions on their boards. Also, unlike EN World, the mods there often delete postings instead of leaving them. That is confusing at times because you have no idea what was moderated, but thats how they roll.
> 
> Yes, it is very convenient for some topics.



Well, let's not kid ourselves here. The entire Western world was united in its condemnation of the invasion of Ukraine. It certainly was not an issue of much division re: domestic politics in any English language speaking nation on Earth -- nor in any democracy on this planet, either. 

And there's nothing "politically divisive" about a pair of dead kids lying in a pool of blood in the streets of Kyiv or Chernihiv. You need to really strain the purpose of Paizo's Message Board rules to reach that conclusion.

Anyway, that's why.


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## Sword of Spirit

Stormonu said:


> That 5E doesn't have PDFs is incredibly annoying; hell, I got PDF copies of the GI Joe & Transformers game but can't get Wotc 5E PDFs?  I have purchased Beyond copies of most of the books, but that's only available when online and annoyingly formatted and linked.



And subject to content alteration or deletion at any time.


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## Zardnaar

Steel_Wind said:


> It was for "political" reasons - though I don't think this is really "politics". @Umbran will correct me if necessary, I'm sure.
> 
> [And I apologize in advance if it is]
> 
> What happened was last February, Russia invaded Ukraine. Various Western nations announced financial sanctions on Russia and Russians, and in particular, took steps to ensure that it would be _really hard_ to send money to (or get money out of) Russia to and from the West.
> 
> About 2-3 weeks after the invasion and as sanctions were being discussed in the media and announced by the UK, Canada, the USA and much of the rest of the West, there was an expansion DLC released for _Wrath of the Righteous, _the PC Game for PF1.  The game is written by Owlcat, a Moscow based developer  and published by its parent, which is a corporation based in Cyprus.  I don't have anything against the devs in Owlcat, but the purpose of our financial sanctions is not to express our outrage on the people of Russia -- it's to make their lives difficult and so make it more difficult for Putin to govern that nation.  And Owlcat's finances are based in Cypus. As a lawyer, I know that is a *RED FLAG.    *
> 
> If you know anything about international banking, you know that Cyprus has the most corrupt banking system in the West. If you think you can track money that goes into a Cypriot bank? You can't; not really.
> 
> So as the DLC was announced, Paizo shilled for Owlcat -- as I am sure they were contractually obligated to do on both Twitter, via-email and on Paizo's website.
> 
> I took exception to this, because in the context at the time -- and at all times since -- sending money in a way that it *certain to reach* ordinary every day Russians just living their lives in Russia has been something that all of us,. collectively, in the West have been morally and legally against doing. Business as usual with Russia and Russians was _not okay._
> 
> I posted on this very topic on Paizo's message board to complain about it. Tonya Woldrige *DELETED MY POST* suggesting that I was discussing "politics" and that was not okay on Paizo's boards. *That was a deliberate and convenient lie, imo*.
> 
> I cancelled my subscriptions the next day (I like to wait and not do things when I am angry). I ceased all development of a PF2 version of RotRL I was doing as a for pay gig for Foundry VTT, ended all work I was doing on the Automated Animations and SND FX for PF2 for Foundry VTT (free project, I was ~half done) and suspended two Pathfinder 2 campaigns indefinitely.  Another player of mine, who runs _Agents of Edgewatch_ ended his campaign that same day.
> 
> This was a difficult decision for me, as many of the top level creative people at Paizo are people I consider to be personal friends. I bear them no ill will -- but this was more than "just business" to me.
> 
> And just like that, after being a Paizo superfan and literally owing every product they had ever released, in any format, (including some really obscure ones from 2003) I was out.
> 
> If and when the war In Ukraine comes to an end, I will reconsider my position. If, before that should occur, WotC does something really offensive with the OGL 1.1, I will, perhaps, also reconsider.
> 
> But for now, that's why I am here, running _Rime of the FrostMaiden_ and _Shadow of the Dragon Queen _via Foundry VTT, and how it is that WotC recently got a whole lot more of my money.




I had developed a taste for Russian beer. 

 Now I'm generally drinking German or Lithuanian/Ukrainian when I can find it.


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## payn

Steel_Wind said:


> Well, let's not kid ourselves here. The entire Western world was united in its condemnation of the invasion of Ukraine. It certainly was not an issue of much division re: domestic politics in any English language speaking nation on Earth -- nor in any democracy on this planet, either.
> 
> And there's nothing "politically divisive" about a pair of dead kids lying in a pool of blood in the streets of Kyiv or Chernihiv. You need to really strain the purpose of Paizo's Message Board rules to reach that conclusion.
> 
> Anyway, that's why.



They dont want to host any of that on their boards, doesn't mean they are not sympathetic. When they dropped the no politics rule they dropped it hard. Drove a lot of folks out because discussion got pretty specific to fewer topics.


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## Steel_Wind

payn said:


> They dont want to host any of that on their boards, doesn't mean they are not sympathetic. When they dropped the no politics rule they dropped it hard. Drove a lot of folks out because discussion got pretty specific to fewer topics.



There are a broad swath of topics that would fall under "domestic politics" in the USA, but which they declare are "human  rights" and so "not politics".  (To be clear, I happen to agree with that view. I have a trans kid and so does my brother.)

By the same token, the right to _not get murdered on your own city streets by a foreign state_ is the most fundamental of those human rights.  The main difference is that on that issue, Paizo suddenly didn't look very good.  

Please appreciate that as this was going on at the time, it was in the context (on the _following day _I think) of McDonald's announcing it was permanently pulling out of all operations in Russia.  

"Hey loyal customer, we've got new DLC for that game we know you own! Buy it here!" [insert link] 

[The End]


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## LordEntrails

Steel_Wind said:


> I bought the following on DDB



On DDB, You didn't buy it on Foundry. It has been apparent for many months, before WotC bought DDB, that WotC felt that such was not a fair use of their IP. 

WotC's 5E (and 2E with some restrictions are on FG) versions of D&D content are available for licensing by VTTs. If Foundry felt it was the right business decision for them, I see no reason they could not also obtain legal access to the content.


Steel_Wind said:


> Few do, fewer still want to bother with it. It's a _massive_ pain in the ass.



So being difficult to do something justifies stealing if it is easier?


Steel_Wind said:


> The overwhelming majority don't bother and just pay WotC for the content and Mr. Primate to be able to use it.



They pay for it on DDB, they DO NOT pay for it on their VTT of choice. 


Steel_Wind said:


> use Foundry VTT to run their 5e games pay to access the material on DDB



I don't recall any lawyers not saying it was a very grey area from day one. And if WotC decided they wanted to do something about it, they probably could. And, it now looks like they are and will.


Steel_Wind said:


> there are a lot of people who are using DDB for Foundry VTT for 5e use.



Popularity does not make things right or ethical. There are way too many instances one can look to history for proof of that, as recent as just a week ago or so.


Velderan said:


> t it seems weird they just announced DMG content will be unlocked for Roll20



Roll20 already has a license to release the DMG. They have for years. But Roll20 has stated it was not valuable enough for their users to release it. It's never been about Roll20 having the legal right to release it, it has been as simple as they did not think they could do so for enough profit (possible in part because they did not see that they could add enough value to it).


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## Steel_Wind

LordEntrails said:


> On DDB, You didn't buy it on Foundry. It has been apparent for many months, before WotC bought DDB, that WotC felt that such was not a fair use of their IP.
> 
> WotC's 5E (and 2E with some restrictions are on FG) versions of D&D content are available for licensing by VTTs. If Foundry felt it was the right business decision for them, I see no reason they could not also obtain legal access to the content.
> 
> So being difficult to do something justifies stealing if it is easier?
> 
> They pay for it on DDB, they DO NOT pay for it on their VTT of choice.
> 
> I don't recall any lawyers not saying it was a very grey area from day one. And if WotC decided they wanted to do something about it, they probably could. And, it now looks like they are and will.
> 
> Popularity does not make things right or ethical. There are way too many instances one can look to history for proof of that, as recent as just a week ago or so.
> 
> Roll20 already has a license to release the DMG. They have for years. But Roll20 has stated it was not valuable enough for their users to release it. It's never been about Roll20 having the legal right to release it, it has been as simple as they did not think they could do so for enough profit (possible in part because they did not see that they could add enough value to it).



Let me address your comments, because they seem high on hyperbole -- and low on rationality.

Firstly, this is not about Foundry VTT -- it is about a patreon software shim created by "Mr. Primate", and another less capable free software shim by VTTA.

Secondly, DDB products are something that the vast majority of Foundry VTT users - me included, bought for EXACTLY this purpose. That is ownership of the data from the perspective of "theft" and "ethics". That is a color of right. We aren't talking about theft or piracy anymore -- and it's _*not even close*_. 

"_Oh, but you didn't get it for X purposes, you only are allowed to use it for Y purposes.  It's theft!"_

What you are talking about is not theft, it's a technical breach of an EULA with ZERO DAMAGES.* Indeed, LESS than ZERO damages. *

Why? Because WotC makes MORE money if I buy the product on DDB for use with Foundry VTT than if I was to buy the same product on Roll 20 or FG's store -- because on those purchases, WotC gets only a percentage of the sale, whereas when buying it on DDB (for the same amount of money, I might add) WotC gets 100% of it. 

Which explains why it is that WotC has not sent a Cease & Desist to Mr. Primate.  For the very good reason it is manifestly in WotC's financial interest to allow it to continue. It is, in fact, _insanely profitable _for them to do so as the  marginal cost of allowing it is _*close to ZERO*_. The money they get in return is essentially all profit - and they get to keep all of it, 100%.

The only people who are aggrieved here is the owner of FG and, to a lesser extent, Roll20, who have technology developed on a more closed system that does not leverage DDB. The people the shareholders of those two services should be upset with is WotC for not sending a C&D. 

The fact that WotC has not done so tells you all you need to know about what kind of licensor partner WotC is. They will act *only* when it is in their financial interest to do so  -- and not until. Just like every other licensor in the history of ever, I might add.

If this is a discussion about morals and ethics, the one who is acting unethically isn't me or other Foundry VTT users of Mr. Primate's patreon -- it's WotC, who is happy to take 100% of a sale and screw over their  licensees until such time as they can create their own VTT -- *and then screw over everybody*. 

Which brings us back to the true subject matter of this thread.


----------



## LordEntrails

Steel_Wind said:


> Let me address your comments, because they seem high on hyperbole -- and low on rationality.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> Which brings us back to the true subject matter of this thread.



Justify your actions however you wish. I'm not the only one who has thought that the Beyond 20 extension (and others) has been ethically dubious from day 1. 

My behavior reflects my ethics. And I have no concerns over no longer being able to use my DDB purchases in the future in the way I intended to use them. I can see how others who do not share my ethics might be concerned about theirs.


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## Sword of Spirit

LordEntrails said:


> If Foundry felt it was the right business decision for them, I see no reason they could not also obtain legal access to the content.



They cannot obtain it, despite attempts, because WotC refuses to grant it to them. For some reason they don't want to enter a formal agreement with a VTT that is likely bigger than Fantasy Grounds at this point

Personally I hope they continue not to long enough for me to import all my content before WotC changes it yet again.


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## Steel_Wind

I pay close to $500 CDN for access on DDB for a number of products over the course of nine months, and I'm acting unethically? I don't agree.

It is doubtful that WotC could even get an injunction if it tried to do so to prevent this, I might add. They don't meet the second branch of the test for obtaining an injunction -- they have not and will not suffer _irreparable harm_ by this software shim; indeed, they been *enriched *by it.

That fact is something you seem to be ignoring. I am not sure why.


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## LordEntrails

Sword of Spirit said:


> They cannot obtain it, despite attempts, because WotC refuses to grant it to them



Says who? Someone who has not obtained such a license. Maybe they haven't obtained it because they are not willing to put in the safeguards to protect the IP. Maybe it's because WotC is unwilling to even discuss it. Maybe it's a thousand things. But we only know one-side of the story. To believe that is the unbiased truth is the height of ignorance.


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## LordEntrails

Steel_Wind said:


> That fact is something you seem to be ignoring. I am not sure why.



You're the one talking about legal actions and injunctions, not me. I'm the one who has said that I do not believe it is ethical to do what you are doing, But that you get to make that choice for yourself. The appearance that such an observation by me has you so riled up is telling.


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## ArchAngel Shadow

EzekielRaiden said:


> Indeed. Why do the work of making and marketing an actually superior product, when you can, with a tenth the cost and a few hours of a lawyer's time, deny anyone else the ability to compete with whatever product you produce?



They DO produce a superior product, and most people use it. That's why everybody ELSE is trying to use their rules and player base to build their OWN products and companies without contributing to the upkeep of that rules base and community.


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## EzekielRaiden

ArchAngel Shadow said:


> They DO produce a superior product, and most people use it. That's why everybody ELSE is trying to use their rules and player base to build their OWN products and companies without contributing to the upkeep of that rules base and community.



Where is this superior WotC VTT of which you speak?


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## doctorhook

Scribe said:


> This speaks I think to a lot of people.
> 
> The majority, do not pirate things, and actually want to pay to support people.
> 
> Its only when corporations get massive delusions of self importance, and over reach, that people start to recoil in disgust.



I feel this immensely. Personally, WotC’s approach to both D&D and MTG over the past year have made me extremely interested in piracy. Not piracy in the sense of “illegal downloads” so much as like “pirate radio”—homemade and with a total disregard for authority. If the “authority” behind these beloved hobbies is so greedy that it interferes with my ability to enjoy these hobbies, AND it’s within my ability to continue with my hobby anyway, I will and I think many others will too.


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## doctorhook

ArchAngel Shadow said:


> They DO produce a superior product, and most people use it. That's why everybody ELSE is trying to use their rules and player base to build their OWN products and companies without contributing to the upkeep of that rules base and community.



Are you talking about 5E? Because superiority isn’t NOT the reason for 5E D&D’s success. The reality is that the vast majority of players aren’t familiar with other TTRPGs and are hesitant to learn. It’s like playing board games with your relatives at Christmas—a lot of the players only know how to play Monopoly (or Clue or Life) and don’t like boardgames enough to want to learn any others. They’re playing the familiar game to avoid being left out, but aren’t interested in doing the work of learning which games they like better.


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## Zardnaar

doctorhook said:


> Are you talking about 5E? Because superiority isn’t NOT the reason for 5E D&D’s success. The reality is that the vast majority of players aren’t familiar with other TTRPGs and are hesitant to learn. It’s like playing board games with your relatives at Christmas—a lot of the players only know how to play Monopoly (or Clue or Life) and don’t like boardgames enough to want to learn any others. They’re playing the familiar game to avoid being left out, but aren’t interested in doing the work of learning which games they like better.




 Often see tis arguement thrown around. Alot of D&D players don't like RPGs/not interested. 

 If D&D collapsed and burned you wouldn't see a drastic uptick in players moving to other systems.


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## Umbran

LordEntrails said:


> The appearance that such an observation by me has you so riled up is telling.




*Mod Note:*

I was watching The Orville a few days ago, in which the antagonist Kaylon present an argument that amounts to, "The fact that you defended your planet so stridently against our attack is evidence that we were right to attack you."

That folks get offended when you make an accusation is not evidence your accusation is accurate.  

Please stop making the discussion about the speakers, rather than the words.  Thanks.


----------



## doctorhook

Steel_Wind said:


> It was for "political" reasons - though I don't think this is really "politics". @Umbran will correct me if necessary, I'm sure.
> 
> [And I apologize in advance if it is]
> 
> What happened was last February, Russia invaded Ukraine. Various Western nations announced financial sanctions on Russia and Russians, and in particular, took steps to ensure that it would be _really hard_ to send money to (or get money out of) Russia to and from the West.
> 
> About 2-3 weeks after the invasion and as sanctions were being discussed in the media and announced by the UK, Canada, the USA and much of the rest of the West, there was an expansion DLC released for _Wrath of the Righteous, _the PC Game for PF1.  The game is written by Owlcat, a Moscow based developer  and published by its parent, which is a corporation based in Cyprus.  I don't have anything against the devs in Owlcat, but the purpose of our financial sanctions is not to express our outrage on the people of Russia -- it's to make their lives difficult and so make it more difficult for Putin to govern that nation.  And Owlcat's finances are based in Cypus. As a lawyer, I know that is a *RED FLAG.    *
> 
> If you know anything about international banking, you know that Cyprus has the most corrupt banking system in the West. If you think you can track money that goes into a Cypriot bank? You can't; not really.
> 
> So as the DLC was announced, Paizo shilled for Owlcat -- as I am sure they were contractually obligated to do on both Twitter, via-email and on Paizo's website.
> 
> I took exception to this, because in the context at the time -- and at all times since -- sending money in a way that it *certain to reach* ordinary every day Russians just living their lives in Russia has been something that all of us,. collectively, in the West have been morally and legally against doing. Business as usual with Russia and Russians was _not okay._
> 
> I posted on this very topic on Paizo's message board to complain about it. Tonya Woldrige *DELETED MY POST* suggesting that I was discussing "politics" and that was not okay on Paizo's boards. *That was a deliberate and convenient lie, imo*.
> 
> I cancelled my subscriptions the next day (I like to wait and not do things when I am angry). I ceased all development of a PF2 version of RotRL I was doing as a for pay gig for Foundry VTT, ended all work I was doing on the Automated Animations and SND FX for PF2 for Foundry VTT (free project, I was ~half done) and suspended two Pathfinder 2 campaigns indefinitely.  Another player of mine, who runs _Agents of Edgewatch_ ended his campaign that same day.
> 
> This was a difficult decision for me, as many of the top level creative people at Paizo are people I consider to be personal friends. I bear them no ill will -- but this was more than "just business" to me.
> 
> And just like that, after being a Paizo superfan and literally owing every product they had ever released, in any format, (including some really obscure ones from 2003) I was out.
> 
> If and when the war In Ukraine comes to an end, I will reconsider my position. If, before that should occur, WotC does something really offensive with the OGL 1.1, I will, perhaps, also reconsider.
> 
> But for now, that's why I am here, running _Rime of the FrostMaiden_ and _Shadow of the Dragon Queen _via Foundry VTT, and how it is that WotC recently got a whole lot more of my money.



As a big PF2e fan and an ardent support of Ukraine, I’m shocked and concerned to hear this! I wasn’t aware, so thanks for this. I don’t own any Owlcat products, and I won’t buy any for the foreseeable future. I’m still supportive of Paizo… but you’ve made me think twice.


----------



## doctorhook

Zardnaar said:


> Often see tis arguement thrown around. Alot of D&D players don't like RPGs/not interested.
> 
> If D&D collapsed a d burtn you wouldn't see a drastic uptick in players moving to other systems.



I generally agree with that assessment, that’s what I was trying to say. I think the majority of 5E players are into it casually and are never going to invest heavily the way Hasbro hopes.


----------



## ECMO3

Regarding DNDB and Foundry or any VTT.

Saying you can buy a book on DNDB but you are not allowed to use it on Foundry is the same as buying a book at the Barnes and Noble but are told you can only use it at Barnes and Noble.  You are not allowed to bring it home and play it and you darn sure are not allowed to carry it over to your friend Bill's house to play.

I am sure if that is the same legally, but that is identical morally and ethically.


----------



## drl2

LordEntrails said:


> Personally, I don't blame WotC for trying to reduce what I have seen as a huge .. hole in the current approach of Foundry and other VTTs. I have felt from day 1 it was unethical what people were doing to get WotC content into Foundry and other non-licensed VTTs. I feel it is about time that these people who are taking advantage of technical loopholes finally be made to compete on a fair and level playing field. Other VTTs have licenses, Foundry et al should be required to obtain and comply with such if they are to allow use of WotC IP.



It sounds like you're assuming the Foundry (etc) folks just tried to sneak their way into D&D support without trying to obtain official support.

I'm not privy to any discussions that may or may not have happened between WOTC and Foundry, but I strongly suspect the opposite to be the case - that FVTT has tried to become an official licensee on some level, but came along at a time when WOTC was solidifying plans for their own VTT... so they joined the game too late.

The SRD was out there and available and in widespread use elsewhere - were they supposed to ignore the largest part of their market in the name of being "fair" about Hasbro's profit margins?


----------



## MNblockhead

dave2008 said:


> I'm glad to hear someone with some authority is stepping up to tell WotC that this is unacceptable.



What authority does Foundry have? They are one of the top three VTTs, along with Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds, but of those they do not have a WotC license and do not sell official WotC material. They only offer the SRD.  WotC benefits indirectly through users who buy D&D Beyond subscriptions to import official content in the VTT, but Foundry releasing a statement isn't going to have the impact that Fantasy Grounds or Roll20 would.  Then again, the lack of a legal relationship with WotC give's Foundry more freedom to share their opinion.


----------



## dave2008

MNblockhead said:


> What authority does Foundry have. They are one of the top three VTTs, along with Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds, but of those they do not have a WotC license and do not sell official WotC material. They only offer the SRD.  WotC benefits indirectly through users who buy D&D Beyond subscriptions to import official content in the VTT, but Foundry releasing a statement isn't going to have the impact that Fantasy Grounds or Roll20 would.  Then again, the lack of a legal relationship with WotC give's Foundry more freedom to share their opinion.



Someone in the industry has more authority then a fan like me.  Since I posted that comment, several 3PP have singed the OpenDD letter, so it is less of an issue now. But I was glad to see it at the time when so many were being quite.


----------



## Oofta

doctorhook said:


> Are you talking about 5E? Because superiority isn’t NOT the reason for 5E D&D’s success. The reality is that the vast majority of players aren’t familiar with other TTRPGs and are hesitant to learn. It’s like playing board games with your relatives at Christmas—a lot of the players only know how to play Monopoly (or Clue or Life) and don’t like boardgames enough to want to learn any others. They’re playing the familiar game to avoid being left out, but aren’t interested in doing the work of learning which games they like better.



I've tried other RPGs off and on over the years, mostly at cons. I stick with D&D because I prefer the system and the latitude of styles when it comes to campaigns.  You may prefer a different system, but D&D has several qualities that make it work for me and the people I play with.

Yes D&D has a massive head start over most other systems, but saying that people just don't know any better feels dismissive of people's opinions and preferences.


----------



## Quarzis

Steel_Wind said:


> It was for "political" reasons - though I don't think this is really "politics". @Umbran will correct me if necessary, I'm sure.
> 
> [And I apologize in advance if it is]
> 
> What happened was last February, Russia invaded Ukraine. Various Western nations announced financial sanctions on Russia and Russians, and in particular, took steps to ensure that it would be _really hard_ to send money to (or get money out of) Russia to and from the West.
> 
> About 2-3 weeks after the invasion and as sanctions were being discussed in the media and announced by the UK, Canada, the USA and much of the rest of the West, there was an expansion DLC released for _Wrath of the Righteous, _the PC Game for PF1.  The game is written by Owlcat, a Moscow based developer  and published by its parent, which is a corporation based in Cyprus.  I don't have anything against the devs in Owlcat, but the purpose of our financial sanctions is not to express our outrage to the people of Russia -- it's to make their lives difficult and so make it more difficult for Putin to govern that nation.  And Owlcat's finances are based in Cypus. As a lawyer, I know that is a *RED FLAG.    *
> 
> If you know anything about international banking, you know that Cyprus has the most corrupt banking system in the West. If you think you can track money that goes into a Cypriot bank? You can't; not really.
> 
> So as the DLC was announced, Paizo shilled for Owlcat -- as I am sure they were contractually obligated to do on both Twitter, via-email and on Paizo's website.
> 
> I took exception to this, because in the context at the time -- and at all times since -- sending money in a way that it *certain to reach* ordinary every day Russians just living their lives in Russia has been something that all of us,. collectively, in the West have been morally and legally against doing. Business as usual with Russia and Russians was _not okay._
> 
> I posted on this very topic on Paizo's message board to complain about it. Tonya Woldrige *DELETED MY POST* suggesting that I was discussing "politics" and that was not okay on Paizo's boards. *That was a deliberate and convenient lie, imo*.
> 
> I cancelled my subscriptions the next day (I like to wait and not do things when I am angry). I ceased all development of a PF2 version of RotRL I was doing as a for pay gig for Foundry VTT, ended all work I was doing on the Automated Animations and SND FX for PF2 for Foundry VTT (free project, I was ~half done) and suspended two Pathfinder 2 campaigns indefinitely.  Another player of mine, who runs _Agents of Edgewatch_ ended his campaign that same day.
> 
> This was a difficult decision for me, as many of the top level creative people at Paizo are people I consider to be personal friends. I bear them no ill will -- but this was more than "just business" to me.
> 
> And just like that, after being a Paizo superfan and literally owning every product they had ever released, in any format, (including some really obscure ones from 2003) I was out.
> 
> If and when the war In Ukraine comes to an end, I will reconsider my position. If, before that should occur, WotC does something really offensive with the OGL 1.1, I will, perhaps, also reconsider.
> 
> But for now, that's why I am here, running _Rime of the FrostMaiden_ and _Shadow of the Dragon Queen _via Foundry VTT, and how it is that WotC recently got a whole lot more of my money.



Hmm… I had no idea about this. Guess, I’ll have to switch over to Pathfinder.  Your contention that ALL of us in the West are morally against paying hard working people just because they happen to have a certain nationality and a government they likely didn’t even vote for is one of the more frightening things I have ever read.  Gods forbid others should disagree with your political view (or point out that it was political).  Paizo just earned a lot of respect in my book for standing against the outrage brigade.


----------



## LordEntrails

drl2 said:


> I'm not privy to any discussions that may or may not have happened between WOTC and Foundry, but I strongly suspect the opposite to be the case - that FVTT has tried to become an official licensee on some level, but came along at a time when WOTC was solidifying plans for their own VTT... so they joined the game too late.



When I don't know what two parties have discussed, I try not to make assumptions on what the two may or may not have discussed. Nor do I assume large corporations are inherently evil.


drl2 said:


> The SRD was out there and available and in widespread use elsewhere - were they supposed to ignore the largest part of their market in the name of being "fair" about Hasbro's profit margins?



SRD is not at issue (with me).


----------



## Umbran

Quarzis said:


> Paizo just earned a lot of respect in my book for standing against the outrage brigade.




*Mod Note:*
While @Steel_Wind was overstepping to make that assertion, and probably shouldn't have been talking word political events, you aren't making it any better.

Folks need to drop it, now.  I hope that's clear enough.


----------



## Mannahnin

doctorhook said:


> Are you talking about 5E? Because superiority isn’t NOT the reason for 5E D&D’s success. The reality is that the vast majority of players aren’t familiar with other TTRPGs and are hesitant to learn. It’s like playing board games with your relatives at Christmas—a lot of the players only know how to play Monopoly (or Clue or Life) and don’t like boardgames enough to want to learn any others. They’re playing the familiar game to avoid being left out, but aren’t interested in doing the work of learning which games they like better.



Indeed.  D&D is the biggest in PART because it's a good game, but in large part because of First Mover Advantage and Network Effects.

D&D being the biggest is self-reinforcing, as long as he publisher doesn't screw it up.  As Ryan Dancy explained quite clearly when it was instituted, PART of the point of the OGL was to ensure no publisher or owner could lock D&D away, and PART of it was the business advantages gained from the enhanced network effects.  Turning quite a large portion of the RPG-publishing industry into support for D&D and reinforcement of its preeminence.  It was in fact a smart business move.  Enlightened self interest is a thing.


----------



## MonsterEnvy

doctorhook said:


> As a big PF2e fan and an ardent support of Ukraine, I’m shocked and concerned to hear this! I wasn’t aware, so thanks for this. I don’t own any Owlcat products, and I won’t buy any for the foreseeable future. I’m still supportive of Paizo… but you’ve made me think twice.



Owlcat moved out of Russia right after the war started. The reason they moved to Cyprus is cause they did not want to be associated with Russia.


----------

