# Chat.... Chat?



## Michael Morris

Chat is the last possible piece needing to be set up on EN2.  The ISRP chat program - flashchat - is already up and running (partially), but the current plug in for IRC chat is no longer supported and over 3 years old.  So what to do?

My personal preference is to use one install of flashchat for all chat services.  The ISRP's rooms would be joined by one or two rooms for general ENWorld chat. The alternative is the provide a page about the ENWorld chat room with a link to download a chat client.

Thoughts and suggestions welcome - however this thread is non-binding.


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## xmanii

Bynw may have some suggestions, I'll point him this way.


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## ToreadorVampire

*Mibbit?*

Indeed, that Java client is a little old.

Might I suggest Mibbit.com as an alternative client, embedded into a page.  It does not use Java at all, and works through JavaScript/AJAX.  We already have an authorised connection from the Mibbit embedded client to Otherworlders.org, and we'll be activating WebIRC functionality soon (I'll be installing it on my server today, then I'll pass it round to the other netadmins to activate later on).

In short, there's no reason not to use #dnd3e (or #dnd4e, or #enworld or anything else) on otherworlders.org, since that's where the community is and has always been?

If you'd like more identity, then I'm sure that with xmanii's (xmanii maintains #dnd3e at the moment) permission a redirect could be set up #dnd3e -> #enworld if you wanted to rename the channel or whatever?

In fact, a Mibbit client could be used for ISRP too?  No need for ENWorld to maintain a chat server at all?

If you want any help configuring/installing/using a Mibbit client, give me a shout - toreadorvampire@hotmail.com - since I've done a lot of customising work on it for my own purposes on a website I'm developing.


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## Michael Morris

If mibit can provide a chat page gateway into the chatroom that's all I really want. As to ISRP, they've  chosen flashchat and I really don't want to try to move them off of it.


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## Bynw

I actually havent looked at the exact java chat that is in use since I use an true IRC client myself. The java chats we currently are offering to others is PJIRC. (Apparently they are changing their website because its going to a landing page right now since the 13th of March). This is embeded into a website. It was last updated about a year ago but at the last time I was aware was actively being developed.

The current EN World chat may be a some version of this that was coded specifically for the forum engine in use here. And unless there has been a major upgrade to that software I dont think the chat would need any changes. The old addage of ... if it works dont fix it.

Mobitt looks pretty neat, I think it might be based on the CGI:IRC project but I'm not sure. We also offer that chat client (CGI:IRC) to some clients as well if they are against java for whatever reason. 

#dnd3e has long been the home of EN World and its predesessor. And many of its users do use an IRC client of some kind. You may find the community against any move towards a flashchat option. Not to mention the other changes that would have to happen doing that.
Bandwidth, finding and training all the chat moderators, bot coding since the current IRC bots in place wouldnt work either and probably a ton of other changes that are not realized until it happens.

I have seen some flashbased IRC clients out there that could be embedded into a website but I've never been able to get them to work, but that could be due to my lack of technical knowledge when it comes to flash as many of them require some kind of changes to the source.

Thats my 2 cents worth ... I think it would be a bad move on EN World's part to change the chat engine. IRC has long been the accepted norm for EN World and is cross platform and has a ton of options for chatters to use to access it. Changing to all Flashbased is the kind of thing that WotC did which alienated a lot of its users. No solution will be 100% acceptable to everyone, thats not going to happen. Cost effective in terms of time it takes to implement and develope ... and IRC wins over any flashchat. Everying is already in place.


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## ToreadorVampire

Sure - here's one I made earlier:

http://ksl.dev.craigfowler.me.uk/who/chat/ - NOTE - this is intentionally broken at the moment while we transition to WebIRC - you will recieve "connection terminated" messages from any Mibbit client used to connect to Otherworlders.org until all of our configs are updated.  Shouldn't take too long. - fixed, WebIRC is configured and working on all otherworlders servers.  Thanks Bynw and DarkSir!

It's a pretty heavily customised embed client (userlist removed, server messages and server notices muted, and I'll be tinkering with the colour scheme in a while) - bits of that web page need fixing too, but you get the picture!

The guy who developed Mibbit goes by the name Axod and hangs out in irc.mibbit.com #help and he's absolutely great for answering questions and processing feature requests (no, really, I mean it - I've had new features/bugfixes completed within minutes!) - plus there's a wiki over at http://wiki.mibbit.com with some documentation (bit disorganised at the moment though, Axod might be better for general Q&A)


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## Ymdar

Gotta second Bynw here. 99% of the ENWorld chat community uses IRC and IRC clients and there would be a _strong_ opposition to any kind of change.
Not to mention Flash requires lots of memory from PCs.


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## NiTessine

I'd vote for Otherworlders.org, too. It's worked fine thus far, and we have an extant community on #dnd3e.

Personally, I would not bother with a chatroom I couldn't access with an IRC client.


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## WickedTroll

I actually registered for an account just to post. If there's any way that it can be done without losing support for the IRC people, it'd be great. I've only ever used the chat, not the forums, and I think a lot of people do the same. :/


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## AltReality

*Possible Changes to the Chat System*

Hi All,
  I just wanted to put in my two cents...
IRC is the internet's standard Chat application. It was created before the World Wide Web, and it is a proven technology.  We have an established community at #dnd3e on otherworlders.org, some of which came from the enworld site, some who have come just through word of mouth and google searches. Changing the chat service so it is not accessible with a standard IRC client will split that community. Some will move over, others will stick with IRC, and both sites will have less visitors as a result. 

  I'm assuming that this change was suggested as a result of the rather funky webchat interface that is currently being used. There are many options available to spruce up the existing page, and maintain the current destination of the chat room. Bynw's mention of the CGI:IRC project is the first to come to mind, and the MIBBIT.COM site looks outstanding...so please allow us to assist you in getting the webchat up to the same standard as the rest of the site, and don't punish the existing community for decisions they have no control over.

Thanks,
AltReality


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## Romers

I found Wizards chat used to be dead... whether #dnd3e is the official chat or not, it should still see support or reference from ENWorld so people know its there for IRC users.

For all my quibbles with D&D, the channel is still a fairly good place to hang out.


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## Kzach

I'd just like to kick in with a comment.

Although my current nick is new, I've been perusing EN World since it was Eric Noah's Unofficial 3e News and had a previous nick on the boards way back when. I stopped coming for several years due to eventual disinterest in 3.x and came back when I heard about the 4e announcement, hoping to find news and discussion here.

Much the same happened with the IRC channel.

From my point of view, Bynw has supported EN World since before it was EN World. A little reciprocation via, at the very least, loyalty wouldn't be too much to expect I would think. I'd like to see the channel expanded, not split in half, which would be the likely result of moving away from otherworlds.org.

Just as a side note, when will we be seeing various industry icons and designers in special IRC chat events organised with the power and influence of EN World in the chat room?


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## Morrus

Honest question: do the majority of the folks in #dnd3e see themselves as being in EN World's chat room, or in an IRC channel which happens to be about D&D?  At least one person above has said they just use the IRC channel, and not the site, which seems to divorce the two somewhat.

I guess the identity thing is key.


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## Mark

Also, how many of the current registered users of EN World use the chat room as it it now?  It may be that whatever barriers exist are keeping people from joining into EN World chat room usage.  I've used the IRC channel plenty over the years and, no offense to anyone involved, it often is polulated by a dozen or so names that are parked but not actually there.  I do not doubt that there is a close knitted community of people who do use that IRC channel at particular times that they all happen to be available, and they are good people from what I have experienced, but it would be ashame to not explore options that might grow the community or allow more EN Worlders to participate in an EN World chatroom option.  On the other hand, maybe no matter what you build it will only ever be used by a couple of dozen people with any regularity.


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## Ymdar

Morrus:

In my opinion you only have to answer on question: Would you like do something with no support, no regulars, no set rules or guidelines with a program that's considered by many to be using too much resource of the computer or would you rather build on a system that's already in place, used by lots of people and easy to modify (for example creating an #enworld channel on the server)? After you got the answer, do what must be done.   


Mark: 

Why do you think the current chatroom structure doesn't allow room for the community to grow? And how do you think a new chatroom software would actually change the behavior of the people?

I'm only asking these questions because -as I said earlier- I think most users of otherworlders.org would not change to a flashchat and I think you should consider that having a second chat would hurt _both_ networks more than having one chat that's somewhat plug-and-play.


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## Kzach

Mark said:
			
		

> ...but it would be ashame to not explore options that might grow the community or allow more EN Worlders to participate in an EN World chatroom option.



Is this option somehow invalid with the current set up?

From what I understand, and I speak for no-one but myself in this regard, the chatroom hasn't received very much support from EN World whereas the chatroom has supported EN World very much.

If you wanted the EN World chatroom to grow the community, that is entirely possible and far more likely and easier to do with the current setup than creating an entirely new and separate entity.

I'm sure that if EN World was to promote the chatroom more and provide some level of support for added functionality and community options that the otherworlders staff would be happy to be involved.

Again, I only speak from opinion and do not speak for anyone else on this matter. Just saying it as I see it.


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## Michael Morris

Bynw said:
			
		

> The current EN World chat may be a some version of this that was coded specifically for the forum engine in use here. And unless there has been a major upgrade to that software I dont think the chat would need any changes. The old addage of ... if it works dont fix it.




The upgrade involves changing vbulletin from version 3.0.7 to version 3.7.  Absolutely none of the old code will work due to key changes in the vbulletin API that were implemented in version 3.5. vbxirc is not an option, it's successor for vb 3.5 was never completed, so it too isn't an option.



> #dnd3e has long been the home of EN World and its predesessor. And many of its users do use an IRC client of some kind. You may find the community against any move towards a flashchat option. Not to mention the other changes that would have to happen doing that.
> 
> Bandwidth, finding and training all the chat moderators, bot coding since the current IRC bots in place wouldnt work either and probably a ton of other changes that are not realized until it happens.




This comment, implying the community at #dnd3e would not be willing to move, that none of the moderators would move over, strongly implies that the #dnd3e has a love of D&D in common with ENWorld and absolutely nothing else. I know user crossover is minimal - I've been in there enough times to know the folks that idle in the channel don't use the boards often. I've been told point blank by several users that they don't frequent the site at all when I've went in there to look for testers on dev in the last year.




> Thats my 2 cents worth ... I think it would be a bad move on EN World's part to change the chat engine. IRC has long been the accepted norm for EN World and is cross platform and has a ton of options for chatters to use to access it. Changing to all Flashbased is the kind of thing that WotC did which alienated a lot of its users.




False. WotC moved to an incredibly buggy proprietary chat system instead of Flashchat which caused the alienation you speak of. This incident is why the ISRP boards were moved from the WotC server to here.



> No solution will be 100% acceptable to everyone, thats not going to happen. Cost effective in terms of time it takes to implement and develope ... and IRC wins over any flashchat. Everying is already in place.




Whatever solution is adopted, it must include full Integration with vbulletin. That means

No one can register a handle in the channel that does not have a corresponding messageboard account.
Anyone banned from the forum is likewise banned in chat, and vice versa
Chat must be usable from a web page. I don't care how many IRC client programs it allows, it must have a web portal.

If IRC can deliver this I'm all ears. If it cannot then it is off the table as far as I'm concerned.


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## Kzach

Michael Morris said:
			
		

> I know user crossover is minimal - I've been in there enough times to know the folks that idle in the channel don't use the boards often. I've been told point blank by several users that they don't frequent the site at all when I've went in there to look for testers on dev in the last year.



This hardly counts for decisive research into the matter.

A couple of people voicing their opinions or stating their habits doesn't make up for the majority.

And just out of curiosity, what nick did you use? How long did you stay in the channel? Did you attempt to join the community there or did you just go in, ask a few questions, and leave?

As I mentioned earlier, I used to come here and the chatroom before I lost interest in 3.x. But I hardly ever posted because I was busy with other things. I currently have a lot of spare time so I find myself posting and chatting more often. Point being, just because people aren't regular posters, doesn't mean they aren't regular members of EN World. Does post-count now determine how valid your opinion is?



			
				Michael Morris said:
			
		

> If IRC can deliver this I'm all ears. If it cannot then it is off the table as far as I'm concerned.




Those are some very restrictive requirements which I'm guessing you know can't be achieved by a dedicated IRC network in connection to a forum.

It seems you care more about what you want than the community itself. The community of #dnd3e is speaking and you're flatly denying them their wishes. It makes me wonder why you started this thread at all if you were always just going to do what you wanted regardless.

*shrug* it's your server so I guess do whatever. But if you ask for people's opinions, expect to get them.


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## Michael Morris

Kzach said:
			
		

> Those are some very restrictive requirements which I'm guessing you know can't be achieved by a dedicated IRC network in connection to a forum.




For the most part vbxIRC accomplishes these goals. It is not compatible with vb 3.5 though, so an alternative must be found.



> It seems you care more about what you want than the community itself. The community of #dnd3e is speaking and you're flatly denying them their wishes. It makes me wonder why you started this thread at all if you were always just going to do what you wanted regardless.
> 
> *shrug* it's your server so I guess do whatever. But if you ask for people's opinions, expect to get them.




It's not my server - it's Russ'. Accusing me of not caring about the input in this thread is very bad form. If you want me to not care then by all means continue making snarky comments like that.


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## Kzach

Michael Morris said:
			
		

> It's not my server - it's Russ'. Accusing me of not caring about the input in this thread is very bad form. If you want me to not care then by all means continue making snarky comments like that.



It wasn't an accusation, it was an observation.


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## LightPhoenix

Kzach said:
			
		

> It wasn't an accusation, it was an observation.




No, it was quite clearly an accusation and admonition.

I don't use the chat, though I've been on it a couple of times.  Everyone there was really nice.

I have to agree that having IRC is prudent.  It may not be the only chat protocol, but it is the definitive chat protocol.  

Is there an IRC client/program/plugin that will work with the new version of vbulletin?  I don't know the answer to that.  I have to imagine that any sort of board integration would likely have to be custom coded (until vbjirc is updated) to read the user db and filter a NickServ through that.


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## Kzach

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> No, it was quite clearly an accusation and admonition.



 :\ 

The over-riding sentiment of users in the chatroom is that they don't want to see it separated from EN World, as is evidenced in this thread.

Michael clearly stated his requirements for keeping the two joined and none of these include the wishes of the IRC users. There is zero consideration for what the users want.

How is pointing this out anything but an observation?

But hey, like I said, it's not my board and not my chat server. I'm just pointing out things I feel should be pointed out.


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## ToreadorVampire

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> Is there an IRC client/program/plugin that will work with the new version of vbulletin?  I don't know the answer to that.  I have to imagine that any sort of board integration would likely have to be custom coded (until vbjirc is updated) to read the user db and filter a NickServ through that.




The first part of that is easy:  A Mibbit embedded client is just plain HTML that can be poked on any web page.  All it requires to run is Javascript support.  "Here's one I made earlier" for the dumpshock.com chat:  http://toreadorvampire.co.uk/dumpshock/  It's very minimal by design, since I'd like the DS admins to adopt it as their semi-official dumpshock chat (their website is currently without chat).  Hence I've left it fairly easy to customise.

The second part (integrating with the boards user list) is a little harder, but not impossible, and does have a few implications.  (here's where I get a little techie):

*Integrating an IRC connection with the forum user database* 

You would set the IRC channel to have a channel-key that is not shared with anybody in plaintext (lest it become comprimised and shared amongst the wrong people).
You follow the instructions at http://wiki.mibbit.com/index.php/Widget#Securing_your_widget to make it so that it is impossible to use a Mibbit widget to connect to <the ENworld channel> from any other website
Configure the channel key with the Mibbit backend (IE:  Go to irc.mibbit.com #help and tell Axod the server, channel, and they channel key and he will configure it for you)
Configure the Mibbit embedded widget to prevent nickname changes and joining other channels (if desired) - again - ask axod on irc.mibbit.com how to do this - he's real helpful
You use server-side logic on the ENW chat page so that the widget does not appear unless the user is logged in using a valid boards nickname (that is not banned)

With that - you have your wish.  However the implications (that I can think of) are:

The only way to connect to the channel would be via the web page, which whilst not based on Java or Flash, will annoy some people
You should probably prefix nicknames when connecting to the network (say connect using the nick en_Nickname) - in order to avoid nick collisions with other chatters that use the network.  Say we had a chatter named It_Trolls (actually we do) - he uses the otherworlders.org network but is nothing to do with #dnd3e or ENWorld, (he lives under the bridge in #dumpshock).  If you had a forums member named the same, your forums user wouldn't be able to connect, because their nick is already in use by someone else who (legitimately) got there first.

As a closing statement - whilst this is possible, it does go against the general (considered good-practice) "online community model" of allowing people to participate as much as possible without having to sign up.  Some visitors who cannot access the chat without having a valid forums username will simply walk away, because they don't like signup forms.  Of note is recent ALA article:  http://www.alistapart.com/articles/signupforms

Also, I would strongly advise against using a chat that cannot be accessed via a normal IRC client.  Being able to chat without having to have a full web browser open (monopolising your screen) is a huge plus that's going for #dnd3e, and the reason that I continued using it 5 years (or however long) ago when WotC changed their chat system to a "can only interact via a web page" model.  When WotC did that a LOT of the regulars - including some really valued ones - vanished and dispersed to other chats.

Either way - even if #dnd3e is to be de-sponsored as the ENW official chat (and a new channel created named #enworld, with new admins and whatever) there is no reason not to use otherworlders.org for it.

_Not that I care, I'm from the 'doesn't use ENWorld' camp, I'm just offering suggestions that  will avoid the gradual breaking up of a community I have grown to love over the last 6/7 years.  I barely even play D&D anymore yet I still connect to #dnd3e because I like the people._


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## Seri

Hi All,

I'd like to see the site and the chatroom attached, banned in one = banned on the other.  It's something that hadn't been supported in the past.

I know I might not have much say as I gave up on the chatroom, not because of the people or otherworlders or bynw (love them all) but because the time commitment to helping tdc run the channel was overwhelming

I'd love to see changes made that increased channel usage and popularity of the channel.

My preference would be to stick on otherworlders (like it's been mentioned, bynw has been wonderful to us for a very long time) with IRC.  

I understood that enworld had a chatroom to accommodate their users that enjoy and possibly prefer that type of communication. I think Enworld has surpassed just being a messageboard site and I don't understand why it would want to lose an aspect of service which has been in place for years. I believe switching to a flash based chat would do that.

If you want the relationship between the boards and the chatroom to improve, i think work needs to be done on both sides. 

xmanii, let me know what you need. tdc will be chiming in on this as well. and thanks to Tor for providing the technical sides of things to support #dnd3e and offering solutions.


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## thatdarncat

At work, so I'll need to keep this short.

If it's not broke, don't fix it 

I don't belive the chatroom in general is broken. MM, I appreciate what you are trying to do, but I don't believe the change you are proposing is good for the community as a whole - chat and forums.

Do you honestly believe that switching to flashchat will increase the userbase in the chatroom as well as the number of forum users using the chatroom?



> I'd like to see the site and the chatroom attached, banned in one = banned on the other. It's something that hadn't been supported in the past.




I'd just like to point out that right now the chatroom moderators cannot see the moderators forum on EN World. Thus it is impossible for us to ensure that the same people are banned in the chatroom as well on the forums.


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## thatdarncat

Kzach said:
			
		

> Just as a side note, when will we be seeing various industry icons and designers in special IRC chat events organised with the power and influence of EN World in the chat room?



Running those events were a major factor in Seri and I burning out on the chatroom.  If someone is willing to host, we'd gladly support them, but they are a major time sink and difficult to run.


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## IIsi 50MHz

Morrus said:
			
		

> Honest question: do the majority of the folks in #dnd3e see themselves as being in EN World's chat room, or in an IRC channel which happens to be about D&D?  At least one person above has said they just use the IRC channel, and not the site, which seems to divorce the two somewhat.
> 
> I guess the identity thing is key.




Boards
I almost never use the boards...because I find web-based boards repulsive due to slowness, random feature limitations from site to site, and feeping creaturism (bloated with too many things not relevant to the actual messaging and that I don't care about). I /have/ experienced fast boards, including web boards, so I know that the "normal experience" these days is not the "best experience". I'd definitely use a much faster board system more.

I tend to use EN boards when someone links to them in IRC, when I help someone find something on them, and especially for more durable discussion amoung and notices for the channel operators.

Good Stuff (Identity)
The identity problem with the channel has always struck me as odd; why is the /official/ chat of the site not named something like #enworld? I'd strongly favour some kind of redirec in the IRC network, so a new channel with a relevant name could be made, and people trying to join the old channel (or trying to join a reasonable guess of the new channel, like "#dnd4e"...if not already in use...) would be shunted into the proper place.

Flash Rant
I'm unlikely to accept a Flash-only chat solution because I would not want to have to load a browser to access chat, rely on extensive logs, and Flash has never earned its name. Flash is slow the same way that Maytag equipment is one of the most frequently repaired of all brands; illusions of speed and reliability are created by marketing (and naming, for "Flash").

IIsi 50MHz
Chanop
irc://irc.otherworlders.org/#dnd3e


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## thatdarncat

The channel has always been #dnd3e because that's what Mark created it as years ago. Yes, it's a little outdated 

But the first thing anyone joining the channel sees is "Welcome to the official EN World chat www.enworld.org"

That said, yes, a redirect to #enworld is doable. The channel name is just tradition.


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## ToreadorVampire

Just FYI I have pre-registered the #enworld name on otherworlders.org in case you'd like to use it.  I see myself as a fairly neutral party in this process, since I'm not, nor have been, nor am interested in being a #dnd3e channel op.

I remember there was some confusion/funny transition periods/all sorts when the #dnd4e channel name got registered, and it passed hands several times before MinceR honourably transferred it over to xmanii.

To avoid all of that in case some random chatter tries to register it (not that I am sure that would happen, but better safe than sorry) - I've got it and am happy to pass it over to xmanii or michael_morris, or morrus, or whoever it gets delegated to if it is to be used by ENWorld.

Throw me an email, or catch me in #dnd3e if that's to happen.


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## thatdarncat

thanks Tore


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## IIsi 50MHz

Michael Morris said:
			
		

> The upgrade involves changing vbulletin from version 3.0.7 to version 3.7.  Absolutely none of the old code will work due to key changes in the vbulletin API that were implemented in version 3.5. vbxirc is not an option, it's successor for vb 3.5 was never completed, so it too isn't an option.
> 
> 
> 
> This comment, implying the community at #dnd3e would not be willing to move, that none of the moderators would move over, strongly implies that the #dnd3e has a love of D&D in common with ENWorld and absolutely nothing else. I know user crossover is minimal - I've been in there enough times to know the folks that idle in the channel don't use the boards often. I've been told point blank by several users that they don't frequent the site at all when I've went in there to look for testers on dev in the last year.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> False. WotC moved to an incredibly buggy proprietary chat system instead of Flashchat which caused the alienation you speak of. This incident is why the ISRP boards were moved from the WotC server to here.
> 
> 
> 
> Whatever solution is adopted, it must include full Integration with vbulletin. That means
> 
> No one can register a handle in the channel that does not have a corresponding messageboard account.
> Anyone banned from the forum is likewise banned in chat, and vice versa
> Chat must be usable from a web page. I don't care how many IRC client programs it allows, it must have a web portal.
> 
> If IRC can deliver this I'm all ears. If it cannot then it is off the table as far as I'm concerned.




Versions
Sounds like good reasoning for dropping vbxirc. Also shows that something IS broken: If upgrading vbulleting is neccessary (probably is, given that upgrades are generally release for good reasons), and doing that breaks compatibility with the old vbulletin, and that breaks the current vbxirc, ...

Crossover
Part of why there's little crossover is that the user experience is so different. Just a few minutes ago, as I intended to reply to your list of specs at the end of your post, I was unable to access EN World for several minutes. My connections elsewhere succeeded, and my IRC connection remained up. IRC disruptions are fare less frequent for me, and usually a matter of few seconds spanned by the auto-reconnect. When I have longer IRC problems, it's almost always on my end: puter crashed so scandisk is running during reboot, power failure, weather between me and the satellite, etc.

Part of the experience difference is because IRC clients generally keep a live connection with clear indications of disconnect, while boards are "connectionless": the boards user has no way to know when a disruption or heavy influx of other users' requests occurs until trying to get the next bit of information, clicking the next link, trying to post, et cet era.

Chat offers a more intimate exchange and potential for more rapid response during a discussion. That is, a discussion takes place in near real time, rather than "post and wait anything from a minute to infinity". On web boards, you have no indication of when another user has stopped taking part unless the user says so before leaving. So, web boards (for me) are more like snail mail than conversations: you never know when or if it will continue. With a chat conversation, you can generally tell when a user lose connection or chooses to leave. You get a more intimate feel in /part/ because of the added info derived from timing of responses. If someone stops responding within the usual rate for a live conversation, it's more immediately meaningful than if people stop posting to a board where anything from a few minutes to a few days is considered normal response time.

Spec List
Item one in your list tells me that you have already decided to elminate IRC. It tells me that you are against allowing introduction to the community via IRC, and that what you require is contrary to the atmosphere of IRC. This limitation would mean that people would be prohibited from happening up us via IRC and that existing users would most likely be required to already be using their "official EN World userID" as their nickname to even enter.

It is not abnormal on IRC for people to adopt different nicknames for different purposes or different times. "Michael_Morris" might become "Morris_Away". A user might sign on to take part in an IRC RPG session, using the name of the user's character as a nickname; this user would be unable to access the chat room before switching to the official ID?

I am opposed to the kind of restriction entailed by your first item. I feel unnecessarily makes the community more closed and is contrary to growth.

Item two on your list makes a great deal of sense. I would like to see a way to easily or automagically synchronise the bans between the two. It's been a pain to try to keep track. OTOH, we have had instances of people who are well-behaved in one of the two, banned in the other. For these few people, the one-side ban has been an opportunity to repair themselves. I'd still default to synchronised bans, though.

Item three is also a good thing. Having web-based access as an OPTION is a Good Thing, for people who don't want to install anything, people who aren't sure what they're doing, and for people who are temporarily unable to use their IRC client (vacationing, lunch break at work or other place that doesn't allow installs, or main puter getting worked on).


If you are indeed already decided, and if you are indeed deliberately framing your requirements to eliminate IRC, then I fear this discussion is pointless. I shall take your responses within it to indicate that there is still some openness to disposal of your first spec requirement.

IIsi50MHz
Chanop
irc://irc.otherworlders.org/#dnd3e


----------



## thatdarncat

Morrus and Mark: The usage of chat or boards has ALWAYS been an issue. Some people prefer one over the other, simple as that.

And I would guess that a far higher precentage of chatroom users visit the boards than boards users visit the chatroom.

Mark: Idling is always going to be a part of any chatroom. It's tradition!  It's the equivilant of leaving your browser open on the index page of the forums then refreshing to see what was posted while you were away from the keyboard.


----------



## Umbran

Michael Morris said:
			
		

> This comment, implying the community at #dnd3e would not be willing to move, that none of the moderators would move over, strongly implies that the #dnd3e has a love of D&D in common with ENWorld and absolutely nothing else.




I'm not sure that's what is implied.  Users, in general, resist change.  Unless they see the change as offering them extra features or other value they don't currently have, they don't generally feel change is justified.  

Specifically, in this case, I would expect the individual users to be losing functionality.  Moving away from IRC would mean that I could not use my Gaim client (which I'm using to access googlechat, AIM, and MIT's internal chat network) to poke my head in the chatroom (which I admittedly only do occasionally, when work is slow).    




> Whatever solution is adopted, it must include full Integration with vbulletin. That means
> 
> No one can register a handle in the channel that does not have a corresponding messageboard account.
> Anyone banned from the forum is likewise banned in chat, and vice versa
> Chat must be usable from a web page. I don't care how many IRC client programs it allows, it must have a web portal.




Hm.  Could you give us a bit of insight into why those are your requirements?  I can see how the first is required for the second, but I don't recall hearing the mods in the respective areas claiming that the second is something they need to have.  I fully agree with the third - if it is an EN World feature, it must be accessible from EN World.


----------



## Mark

thatdarncat said:
			
		

> Morrus and Mark: The usage of chat or boards has ALWAYS been an issue. Some people prefer one over the other, simple as that.
> 
> And I would guess that a far higher precentage of chatroom users visit the boards than boards users visit the chatroom.
> 
> Mark: Idling is always going to be a part of any chatroom. It's tradition!  It's the equivilant of leaving your browser open on the index page of the forums then refreshing to see what was posted while you were away from the keyboard.




I see.  Thanks.

Out of curiosity, how many regular users of the IRC channel from EN World would you estimate you have in there over the course of a month, perhaps averaged just over the last year or so?


----------



## ToreadorVampire

Mark said:
			
		

> Out of curiosity, how many regular users of the IRC channel from EN World would you estimate you have in there over the course of a month, perhaps averaged just over the last year or so?




As crazy as it sounds, that information is readily available!

xmanii generates weekly chat stats, and also did some annual chatstats for 2007.  So ...

http://calandyr.com/dnd/dnd3e.2007.html is the 2007 period, and weekly stats are all indexed on http://www.calandyr.com/dnd/mircstats.html

So ... erm, see for yourself!


----------



## Mark

ToreadorVampire said:
			
		

> As crazy as it sounds, that information is readily available!
> 
> xmanii generates weekly chat stats, and also did some annual chatstats for 2007.  So ...
> 
> http://calandyr.com/dnd/dnd3e.2007.html is the 2007 period, and weekly stats are all indexed on http://www.calandyr.com/dnd/mircstats.html
> 
> So ... erm, see for yourself!





That's useful.  Thanks!


----------



## Morrus

It seems to me the compromise is to find a decent web-based chat interface for the IRC channel (I appreciate that there are people out there who don't like to use a browser; however there are a LOT more out there who don't want to install and learn to use an IRC client).

Secondly, dnd3e definitely is a dated name for the channel; enworld would probably be better.

One of the problems I had with IRC is that I had to continually re-register my name and be "made" owner of the channel again and so forth, that I kinda gave up.  I don't even know who's technically "owner" of the channel now. But I hve nothing against IRC in principle, as long as there's a very simple interface for people to use.


----------



## thatdarncat

Morrus said:
			
		

> It seems to me the compromise is to find a decent web-based chat interface for the IRC channel (I appreciate that there are people out there who don't like to use a browser; however there are a LOT more out there who don't want to install and learn to use an IRC client).
> 
> Secondly, dnd3e definitely is a dated name for the channel; enworld would probably be better.
> 
> One of the problems I had with IRC is that I had to continually re-register my name and be "made" owner of the channel again and so forth, that I kinda gave up.  I don't even know who's technically "owner" of the channel now. But I hve nothing against IRC in principle, as long as there's a very simple interface for people to use.




The mibbit client that Tore linked to seems stable. A couple of minor bugs, but nothing major. I used it all day yesterday.

Registration of a nickname lasts 21 days - meaning if you haven't logged in for 22 days you will need to reregister your nickname. That's standard for any network I'm familiar with. Xmanii currently has channel ownership as he's taken over running the channel.


----------



## ToreadorVampire

*Edit:* I have noticed that my pimp-to-information ratio is rather high in this post, fair warning!



			
				Morrus said:
			
		

> It seems to me the compromise is to find a decent web-based chat interface for the IRC channel (I appreciate that there are people out there who don't like to use a browser; however there are a LOT more out there who don't want to install and learn to use an IRC client).




I think that's the concensus, and allow me to pimp www.mibbit.com again as that interface, it's seriously cool as web-based IRC interfaces go.



> Secondly, dnd3e definitely is a dated name for the channel; enworld would probably be better.




Indeedy, it's nothing for us network admins to add a few lines to our configs that redirect #dnd3e to #enworld, effectively merging the channels under a new name.



> One of the problems I had with IRC is that I had to continually re-register my name and be "made" owner of the channel again and so forth, that I kinda gave up.




Well, with my otherworlders.org network admin's hat firmly on ... let me point you to http://www.otherworlders.org/forums/index.php?topic=222.0 - a Community Supporter Membership at Otherworlders.org is only $15.00 US per year (kiddie's money considering the £ <=> $ exchange rate) - and means that the channel will never expire (nor will the channel ownership expire), and you get two registered nicknames (say, Morrus and Michael_Morris) that also will not expire.



> I don't even know who's technically "owner" of the channel now. But I hve nothing against IRC in principle, as long as there's a very simple interface for people to use.




FYI xmanii has ownership of both #dnd3e and the lesser-used #dnd4e at the moment and leads their management/chanop teams.  I have registered #enworld (so nobody else can squat on the channel name) but I'm not interested in being involved in the IRC channel's management at all, so if you'd like the #enworld channel name, I'll transfer ownership to yourself (or whoever you delegate to) once you're ready.


----------



## Mithran

Well now, never thought I'd be speaking up on something like this, but here it is. I'll admit, I joined EN World mostly for the pbp games, and I never have been particularly active elsewhere. I don't know that I'd call my self active on #dnd3e due to busy schedule, but I do look in every day and have a little chat fun.

Anyway, on to outlining where I think the two communities help each other. I was introduced to #dnd3e, and the rest of what is now Otherworlders.org by the EN World web client. My activity has dropped off on EN World due to various factors, but #dnd3e has kept me me somewhat in touch. We discuss EN World threads from time to time, and I've read many a thread linked in the channel that I never would have, even in my active days. Every now and then, such as now, I'm even motivated to post.

So there you have it. I'm hardly a shining beacon of interesting posting for the forum at the moment, but I'm far more involved in the community than I otherwise would be. Don't take away the passage of users back and forth that allows people to find their personal favored medium while still holding ties with the other.


----------



## Tyranthraxus

Greetings,

As another long time user of #dnd3e (on many of the different servers) and not a user of the forums, I would like to add my voice in support of this channel. I have no problem with it being turned into #enworld nor with any steps used to discourage idlers (because I don't think its good form to idle in a chat channel). I go there primarily to chat with other gamers, and while sometimes it entails long periods of silence, the core group there do seem to get through quite a few topics.

I don't think  I would have any issues with using a web based chat software ( I currently use mirc)

I also think its the perfect place (for example) to discuss in real time, 4th Edition (its pros and cons) and be able to hear from many different viewpoints. While I have used forums in the past, Im typically not a fan of the wait for a response. While Im not really an IT type, I have taken a look at mibbit as suggested above and think it might be the way to go.


----------



## Seri

So what's the status on things, is there a plan for the future of the channel? should there be a conversation with the staff of the channel and the boards?

where does it go from here?


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## Morrus

Seri said:
			
		

> So what's the status on things, is there a plan for the future of the channel? should there be a conversation with the staff of the channel and the boards?
> 
> where does it go from here?




Mike will be around again in a day or two; obviously he'll be imlementing the technical side into EN World II depending on what I decide on.

I'm inclined to go with a #enworld channel with me as owner, and an easy web interface fully integrated into the site.  Ideally with some sort of output onto EN World's main page showing how many people are in chat, etc. to encourage participation.

What I do want is to integrate the two communities more, so that they don't feel like two separate communities.  I'm not sure the best way to do that - as tdc mentioned, scheduled publisher chats etc. are very work intensive, and it's easy to burn out on them.


----------



## Kzach

Morrus said:
			
		

> What I do want is to integrate the two communities more, so that they don't feel like two separate communities.  I'm not sure the best way to do that - as tdc mentioned, scheduled publisher chats etc. are very work intensive, and it's easy to burn out on them.



One thing I'd like to suggest is using the EN World main page as a way to promote the chat room a bit more.

There are PHP modules (I don't know what you're using for the site but I'm sure something similar could be done) for community sites that have a side box that displays pertinent chat room details such as current numbers, random quotes, current topic, etc.

A page with guidelines for the chat could also be used instead of a direct link to the chat room software. I know a number of sites have their chat room link go to a guidelines page first that outlines not only the rules and spirit of the channel, but also who the operators are and what software can be used to connect and how to use it.

Also, events don't have to be publishers or authors. You could determine a once a week schedule, keeping the same time every week, but choosing a topic relevant to EN World each time. Post the chat event on the main page each week and have at least one EN World staff member turn up or assign one of the Otherworlds ops to be a regular moderator.


----------



## thatdarncat

Kzach said:
			
		

> One thing I'd like to suggest is using the EN World main page as a way to promote the chat room a bit more.
> 
> There are PHP modules (I don't know what you're using for the site but I'm sure something similar could be done) for community sites that have a side box that displays pertinent chat room details such as current numbers, random quotes, current topic, etc.



Hmm

Any examples?


----------



## Seri

I think more information is needed on all sides.  I'm feeling like this is a bit us vs them, which is what I think we all want to get away from.

I would like to suggest three things.

1. create a list of questions and try to stick to them so this doesn't turn into a rehashing of the past, this is movement forward and providing solutions to problems.

2. start a thread asking the forum community what they would like to see in a chatroom (interface (web/irc/?) topics, issues, etc.  Have a set time limit to the forum, ie this will run for 1 week and will be used as reference point to improve service to both communities (forum&chat)

3. schedule a chat in channel during the time period mentioned above, have Morrus, MM, Xmanii, channel ops, Bynw and anyone else I'm missing there, and get the same input from the chat community.

I think that would provide a starting point for making decisions that would benefit all of the community.


----------



## genshou

I would certainly like to see more pimping of the chat on the EN World website.  I would imagine a great deal of forumites don't even know the chatroom exists, or at least don't have any idea what it's like in there.

It seems to me like the majority of our EN World visitors are guests, either because they don't have an EN World account or because they don't keep themselves logged in.  I'd like to see some of the oldtimer forumites now and again.


----------



## Seri

Is there any news or info about how chat is going to work, I've noticed the countdown and would like to know how things are progressing.


----------



## thatdarncat

bump?


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## Vempyre

(user comments following)

Woa, I havnt been in #dnd3e myself in years n years, but yet I still recognize names like Seri and thatdarncat, hehe.

I guess I am not that old that I am forgetting names yet!

The reason I havnt been using IRC chat in years is it feels antiquated to me (and that I havn't played DnD much in the last 4 years). I think it's still useful and a great tool of communication, but the interface and oddities of IRC compared to modern technology  quirks me on many levels  It feels like a dinosaur to me (IRC, I mean, not the chat channel itself).

That's why I think a chat interface for ENWorld2 needs to be convivial and transparent, and easy to use, to correspond to today's user demand. Maybe it would lure back old ppl like me who havnt used it in ages. The fact that most ppl here are geeks and knowledgeable in old stuff like IRC is no excuse to setup a proper modern age chat interface  (my opinion)

All the points about a good functional non-quirky chat web portal, integration with the boards (for forum/chat usernames for exemple) are valid and important points to me in regard to the above, if I was to start hanging out in there again 

I have no suggestions as to what technology to use though, sadly, as I have been out of the chat loop for years.


----------



## thatdarncat

Hey Vemp, long time no see 

Can you give me some examples of your problems with IRC?


----------



## Vempyre

The interface, mostly.

/slash commands are so yesterday 

Lack of a visual environment in which you can visualize the ones you chat with. (I guess I am getting used to chat in a 3d environment or a graphical one). But this is more of a flavor thing and has nothing to do with usability. Ever though I grow older and older, I am the type of person that keep switching to the new stuff as it comes out, mostly. That's why I guess to me IRC feels outdated and yesterday 

... It's just that comparing to today's possibilities in technology ... (there is such wonderful videoconferencing software existing today all over)

To resume, I wish Cyberspace was already existing, hehe.

But my personal wishes aside, the interface is very important to help make chat easy to use even for "non-geeks". I feel regular IRC with it's usual interfaces doesn't connect with the world at large, but only to an handful of "know-how" or "nostalgics".

A few years ago still, the internet was mostly populated with geeks. These days everybody is using it. My grand-mother in her mid eighty's is using internet to play cards with her daughters 500 miles away and uses MSN and checks a few web pages. She also uses gaming web sites (card games, mostly) with logins and integrated chat (and even voice chat) while playing. I don't subscribe to cable TV anymore but get my news, videos or written, from the net. I watch my favorite TV shows (and anime!) from the net. I buy e-books from the net and put them on my pocket-pc (which happens to also be my phone end portable video and mp3 player) to read in my bed at night.

It is an example to reflect that all kind of ppl use the internet nowadays, for everything. The internet and this site should change and adapt to offer better interfaces that doesn't require geek knowledge or obscures /slash commands to use.

The same is/has happened to DnD. More and more "less geeky than before" ppl are playing these days with the regained popularity from 3e and I feel 4e will continue that trend even more. Many of those ppl are potential ENWorld newcomers.

Therefore for the future (either immediate or in a few years) I think ENWorld should ensure to have the best Interface possible in all of it's components for the most pleasing and ease of use experience while consulting and using the site. Us geeks don't mind a few kinks, we sometimes even "like" it, hehe. But the rest of the crowd doesn't.

All of this is theoretical of course and I have no direct suggestion for technologies or platforms to use. But I think such values should be considered when using platforms and interfaces for all components of this site (or any site these days).

Why not replace chat with videoconferencing? *wink* Or integrated voice chat? (Ok I am going way too far, hehe)

Last edit : a better resume of my thoughts would be "there's a reason windows replaced DOS".


----------



## genshou

I can count on one hand the number of times DOS crashed on me.  I don't even need the hand.

I can't count on one hand the number of times Windows has had issues that made me wish I could go back to DOS...


----------



## Vempyre

genshou said:
			
		

> I can count on one hand the number of times DOS crashed on me.  I don't even need the hand.
> 
> I can't count on one hand the number of times Windows has had issues that made me wish I could go back to DOS...




But that's for tech savvy ppl and nostalgics. None of us truly want to go back to DOS, we just wish windows was more stable. That a marked difference, hehe. The public at large wants nothing to do with DOS-like stuff and usability.  That's why the public at large doesn't use IRC chat rooms. If we could find a better interface for them to use it, it's number of users would grow.


----------



## fett527

I'm gonna comment here as I find this quite interesting and humorous as I am fed up with flashchat at CircvsMaximvs.

Don't know if thatdarncat et al remember but I ran the adopted IRC chat for NTL for a time.  With that crowd it was quite popular and as I am a chatwhore the flashchat becomes quite unbearable.  Now, if that's due to buggy app, bandwidth or whatever and can be fixed great.  But as soon as I stop being lazy I was going to setup an IRC room and see if peops at CM would use it as IRC rocks balls vs flashchat.

I do hope the plan is to keep IRC and use a web client interface.


----------



## IronWolf

fett527 said:
			
		

> But as soon as I stop being lazy I was going to setup an IRC room and see if peops at CM would use it as IRC rocks balls vs flashchat.




So true.  I *hate* flashchat.  I much prefer IRC for chat, people have their choice of clients and can use the one that they prefer instead of being forced into a client they do not want to use or is particularly buggy on the platform they choose to use.



			
				fett527 said:
			
		

> I do hope the plan is to keep IRC and use a web client interface.




These seems the most sane solution.  Folks can use their client of choice or a web client to make it a little easier on folks that don't want to deal with a full on IRC chat client.


----------



## Bynw

Just as an FYI .... for those that feel regular IRC with it's usual interfaces doesn't connect with the world at large, but only to an handful of "know-how" or "nostalgics".


According to the IRC site of irc.netsplit.de which tracks IRC usage ...


There are currently 842 known networks, with 5859 servers, 518762 channels with 926110  users.

The slash commands are only needed for commands. General chatting doesnt require any.


----------



## thatdarncat

Really, the only slash commands needed are "/me" for actions, "/nick" to change your nickname if needed and "/msg nickserv identify" for logging into your nickname. Maybe "/join" if you want to visit other channels.


----------



## genshou

I find "/msg nickserv identify" takes too long to type.  I prefer "/ns id".  Those first three are the only commands I generally use outside of channel ownership.

Bynw's right.  IRC does the job better than any fancy new chat programs have, and that's why people keep using it.  Just because we have really advanced computers compared to the early 80's doesn't mean we've suddenly stopped using keyboards as a general feature.  We're also still using hammers, shovels, sacks, pants, and hinged wooden doors.


----------



## IIsi 50MHz

Ahem...I could reply about multiple alternate commands, aliases, and extra commands that are "Important!" to me, but I think that requires another thread. I'm too lazy to make another thread 

On a more related vein: in-browser IRC clients, Flash chats, and most instant messengers have an advantage over IRC by working "out of the box" without requiring the user to manually dig up a server name and port, find out where to put them, hope that the server has something of relevance, find out how to get someplace with actual users (a channel, rather than server status messages: "It says connected, but I don't see anybody talking or any users!"). Messengers generally have a much more friendly sign-up process, too. NickServ works differently from network to network, generally requires longer login sequences, and requires extra user training for the user to be able to make the IRC client "integrate" NickServ such that signing on to the server actually /signs you on/ rather than resulting in being muted and/or changed into Guest283501 (or similar). NickServ may not even be present.

I guess, new IRC users who are at least a little familiar with "signing into a service" expect it to work the same way: you download the software, double-click, get led through username and password creation, confirm, and Bam--you get presented with options, buttons, or lists of people. Later, you go back by just double-clicking the programme. Bam! There are your people, or email messages, or buttons for doing your banking... None of this "Ok, I installed the programme; now it's asking me for all this other crap. Some of it sounds like the same thing (username/nickname/userid). Why does it want my real name? How do I find what to put in the Server and Port boxes? Hmm, it says it connected and a whole lot of stuff just /flew/ past. I can't see any people or rooms..." or, later "What do you MEAN I wasn't on the same server as you? I don't want to go through that setup again. I'm just uninstalling this crap!". And don't get me started on netsplits.

Argh, I'm giving Micheal_Morrus fuel. ^_^;;; Give me logging and scripting, or give me death! This is what happens when I try to be on-topic while irritated about unrelated things: rant mode, and feeding the "enemy".

MM, will this new EN World have the go-faster stripes? I'd love to see a light-weight layout that loads in a jiffy--or, for that Googley feeling, one that has features galore, but loads most of the in the background and reuses cached code to due lots of client-side snazziness. Or, nevermind. I'll just sit here hugging my various IRC clients and wait for the final show, shall I?

Thinking of chat, I think I'll have decent time for it this week, at last. Whew!

-- 
IIsi "Rambling" 50MHz
Chanop
irc://irc.otherworlders.org/#dnd3e


----------



## Seri

So in light of ENW2 having a slight delay, Michael, what's the plan for the chat room?

I'd would really appreciate some feedback from MM and Morrus

Thanks


----------



## Morrus

Seri said:
			
		

> So in light of ENW2 having a slight delay, Michael, what's the plan for the chat room?
> 
> I'd would really appreciate some feedback from MM and Morrus




I haven't anything to add since my last post; the technical side/implementation is Mike's job, but as you may have realised, he's a little busy trying not to get fired by his real job right now!


----------



## thatdarncat

Morrus said:
			
		

> I haven't anything to add since my last post; the technical side/implementation is Mike's job, but as you may have realised, he's a little busy trying not to get fired by his real job right now!



Russ, there has been some comment since your post that I think we would like to get some feedback on. 



			
				Seri said:
			
		

> I think more information is needed on all sides. I'm feeling like this is a bit us vs them, which is what I think we all want to get away from.
> 
> I would like to suggest three things.
> 
> 1. create a list of questions and try to stick to them so this doesn't turn into a rehashing of the past, this is movement forward and providing solutions to problems.
> 
> 2. start a thread asking the forum community what they would like to see in a chatroom (interface (web/irc/?) topics, issues, etc. Have a set time limit to the forum, ie this will run for 1 week and will be used as reference point to improve service to both communities (forum&chat)
> 
> 3. schedule a chat in channel during the time period mentioned above, have Morrus, MM, Xmanii, channel ops, Bynw and anyone else I'm missing there, and get the same input from the chat community.
> 
> I think that would provide a starting point for making decisions that would benefit all of the community.




I'd also like to know what you intend to happen to the current channel and mod staff? Are we simply renaming the channel as has been discussed? Or are you wanting to scrap everything and start over on your own?


----------



## Morrus

Well, regarding Seri's question - I'm fairly sure most people know how I view decisions made by committee - pointless waste of time!  Nah, as far as I'm concerned it's solved: keep the channel, find a decent web interface I'm happy with.  Need Mike for that though, so I'll wait.

As far as staff - no intention to change.  My ideal situation is rename it #enworld, but have anyone who goes to #dnd3e end up in the same place.  The web interface would go to #enworld, of course.


----------

