# OD&D 4 me (April Fools)



## Rel

*OD&D 4 me*

Unless it's for moderation, you guys probably don't see me around here much lately.  I've been pondering exactly why that is and I had an epiphany about it this weekend that I knew you'd want to know about:  OD&D is really the direction I want to be headed.

I mean what's at the heart of gaming?  Fun.  Imagination.  Stories.  Mystery.  Magic.

Seems like I've let those fall by the wayside amid all the discussions of tactics, balance, "what's core?", "does this model reality?", and "where's the verisimilitude?"  When did I start using the word "verisimilitude" on a regular basis anyway?

With Gary passing recently, it had me reflecting back on gaming with him this past GenCon and how much *pure fun* that was.  None of the other BS that we're constantly reading about here on the boards.  Just the magic of enjoyment that comes from exploring a dungeon, falling down a 10' pit and smashing skeletons while finding a Shield +1.

There were no attacks of opportunity (although Gary could have given somebody one if he felt it was warranted:  GM judgement at work).  There was no counting squares.  There was no big list of abilities that could be used 1/day.  There were no skills to track.  We had Sleep and Charm Person and we LIKED IT.  And for anything else you could make a Dex check.

Just think of how much easier that is to keep track of.  How much easier is it to PREPARE for?!  When I think of running other versions of D&D, I think my players must assume that I am MADE of free time!  And if I'm going to spend the time to prep the game at all then they can certainly live with a more simplified ruleset where I'm granted a bit more GM fiat.

It's all very clear now.  That is the direction my games should be headed.

IN CASE IT ISN'T CLEAR, I POSTED THIS THREAD IN THE 4E FORUM BECAUSE IT WAS THE ABOVE REALIZATION THAT HAS DECIDED ME AGAINST ADOPTING 4E.  THANK YOU.


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## Wisdom Penalty

Great in theory, tough in practice.

I'm not knocking your desire to go oD&D.  I have had the same thing.  And I acted on it.  For a 1 or 2-night session, it was great fun.  For an extended campaign...it was hard.  

Not on the DM, mind you, but on the players.  There was little difference for level-ups other than "roll hit points".  While this may sound Cool, it began to get tiresome (around level 4).

Anyway, there's always a part of me that wants to go that route. And, ironically, it's the same part of me that has me so hopeful for 4E.  I think - no, hope - we get "back" to some of that seat-of-the-pants DM fiat stuff in 4E that was sorely missed in 3E.

W.P.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully

The whole verisimilitude thing has gotten really bad, hasn't it? Sometimes, we seem to over-analyze all this stuff. 

I have no experience with OD&D, but plenty with 3.x. After preparing and running my first 4E "light" playtest with my group, I definitely can say that the preparation seemed to have dropped considerably. I used exclusively kobolds in my encounters, and I didn't create a single write-up on my own. That was a serious time-saver. The rest of the "plot" was quickly done (stealing from various sources), and I think I took two short evenings to prepare for it (4-6h total), including the time to create the map for the dungeon. And I only finished 2/3 of the adventure in a 5h session. And we had a lot of fun, too!  

Maybe I come around and post my first playtest experience a little more verbose.


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## Cadfan

Two Words:

Og: Unearthed.


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## Kwalish Kid

Rel said:
			
		

> We had Sleep and Charm Person and we LIKED IT.  And for anything else you could make a Dex check.



Dana Carvey ?


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## Kzach

That's wonderful.

Why is this in a 4e forum though?

Do moderators get to skip all the rules and post whatever they feel like wherever they feel like?

If I'd posted this the thread would be moved and I'd be accused of trolling.


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## mhensley

Wisdom Penalty said:
			
		

> Great in theory, tough in practice.
> 
> I'm not knocking your desire to go oD&D.  I have had the same thing.  And I acted on it.  For a 1 or 2-night session, it was great fun.  For an extended campaign...it was hard.
> 
> Not on the DM, mind you, but on the players.  There was little difference for level-ups other than "roll hit points".  While this may sound Cool, it began to get tiresome (around level 4).
> 
> Anyway, there's always a part of me that wants to go that route. And, ironically, it's the same part of me that has me so hopeful for 4E.  I think - no, hope - we get "back" to some of that seat-of-the-pants DM fiat stuff in 4E that was sorely missed in 3E.




QFT

I dearly love Basic D&D, but my group would revolt if I tried to get them to play it again.  While it is really easy to DM, the sparseness of mechanics and lack of tactical combat makes the game rather lackluster for players (at least mine).  Plus there are some real issues I have with early D&D- the high death rate, the 1st level wizard that's useless after he casts his one sleep spell, the incompetent thief (but boy can he climb walls), the tons of save or die effects, etc.


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## phil500

I was recently about to get into a group that played 1st ed. adnd.  I flipped through a book and realized i wasnt interested- the DM allowed for parties of all levels and i was gonna have to start at 1 and be useless for several weeks.

but mostly, i didnt like the vagueness of spell effects.  they involved too much DM arbitration b/c you could easily break quests with them.


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## delericho

Rel said:
			
		

> Just think of how much easier that is to keep track of.  How much easier is it to PREPARE for?!  When I think of running other versions of D&D, I think my players must assume that I am MADE of free time!  And if I'm going to spend the time to prep the game at all then they can certainly live with a more simplified ruleset where I'm granted a bit more GM fiat.
> 
> It's all very clear now.  That is the direction my games should be headed.




There's a lot of truth in that, although my older edition of choice would probably be BECM D&D. However, while it sounds nice in theory, I know that in practice I would be driven mad by the quirks of the older rulesets: the lack of a unified mechanic, different XP progressions for each class, etc.


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## mattfs5

Rel said:
			
		

> Unless it's for moderation, you guys probably don't see me around here much lately.  I've been pondering exactly why that is and I had an epiphany about it this weekend that I knew you'd want to know about:  OD&D is really the direction I want to be headed.
> 
> I mean what's at the heart of gaming?  Fun.  Imagination.  Stories.  Mystery.  Magic.
> 
> Seems like I've let those fall by the wayside amid all the discussions of tactics, balance, "what's core?", "does this model reality?", and "where's the verisimilitude?"  When did I start using the word "verisimilitude" on a regular basis anyway?
> 
> With Gary passing recently, it had me reflecting back on gaming with him this past GenCon and how much *pure fun* that was.  None of the other BS that we're constantly reading about here on the boards.  Just the magic of enjoyment that comes from exploring a dungeon, falling down a 10' pit and smashing skeletons while finding a Shield +1.
> 
> There were no attacks of opportunity (although Gary could have given somebody one if he felt it was warranted:  GM judgement at work).  There was no counting squares.  There was no big list of abilities that could be used 1/day.  There were no skills to track.  We had Sleep and Charm Person and we LIKED IT.  And for anything else you could make a Dex check.
> 
> Just think of how much easier that is to keep track of.  How much easier is it to PREPARE for?!  When I think of running other versions of D&D, I think my players must assume that I am MADE of free time!  And if I'm going to spend the time to prep the game at all then they can certainly live with a more simplified ruleset where I'm granted a bit more GM fiat.
> 
> It's all very clear now.  That is the direction my games should be headed.




I wholeheartedly agree.  I've recently had the same revelations, and now am in the process of starting a new AD&D campaign (1e/2e hybrid) with my group, which I brought up on 3.0/3.5.

When 4e was announced, I really wanted to like it.  I needed a break from the burden of preparing and running 3e, so I followed the news as closely as I could (and still do, to some extent, which is why I'm reading this board now).

4e is just not for me.  You said it every bit as well as I could have, so I won't bother repeating or paraphrasing your post.  4e looks to be a fine, well-designed, and well-balanced system... it's just not even close to how I want to play D&D.  Now that I've found AD&D again, I don't see myself ever going back to 3rd.

I understand that this board is primarily read by people who are psyched about 4e, and this post isn't intended to be a shot at you guys in the slightest.  But, after reading the OP's comments, I felt that I had to chime in and nod my agreement.  I also disagree with Wisdom Penalty's statements.  It's all about your group, and what you and your players want to get out of the game.  For the player in my group that's creating a 1e AD&D monk, for example, I'm fairly certain that the impending quest of seeking out a higher level monk and defeating him/her in single combat before he can attain 8th level will far outweigh any lack of mechanical bonuses his character receives up until that time.

Thanks for the post, Rel.

Matt


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## delericho

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> After preparing and running my first 4E "light" playtest with my group, I definitely can say that the preparation seemed to have dropped considerably. I used exclusively kobolds in my encounters, and I didn't create a single write-up on my own. That was a serious time-saver.




Is this really a surprise? The big drain on prep-time in 3.5e always came with statting up custom NPCs, especially at high level.

A couple of weeks ago, I created an adventure for 6th level PCs, using the pre-gen lizardfolk from MM4 (and the variant lizardfolk from MM3), traps from the DMG and DMG2 (or was it Dungeonscape?), a black dragon from Draconomicon, and maps downloaded from Wizards.com. The whole thing took less than an hour to prep, and we played through it in a single six-hour session.

As long as the DM is happy to restrict himself to the bank of pre-generated elements, prep time will be very quick indeed. And, in fact, 3.5e has the edge here, simply by virtue of that bank of pre-generated elements being so much bigger. The real test of 4e prep will come when DMs start advancing monsters, adding class levels and templates (or equivalent), and otherwise stepping off the beaten path. In which area there are big savings to be had, and to be fair to it, 4e is looking pretty good so far.


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## Rel

mhensley said:
			
		

> I dearly love Basic D&D, but my group would revolt if I tried to get them to play it again.  While it is really easy to DM, the sparseness of mechanics and lack of tactical combat makes the game rather lackluster for players (at least mine).  Plus there are some real issues I have with early D&D- the high death rate, the 1st level wizard that's useless after he casts his one sleep spell, the incompetent thief (but boy can he climb walls), the tons of save or die effects, etc.




I think that the combat can be as tactical as the players want if the GM is willing to work with them (at my gaming table I do the best I can to work with the players).  If they want to trip an opponent or "bull rush" them then I can just have them and the foe each roll a d20 and see who rolls the most under their Strength.  Stuff like that.  A simple mechanic is a flexible mechanic.

As for the spells, first of all, for anybody who doesn't know, they were called "Magic Users" back then.  That Magic User is going to have to realize that he's "paying his dues" for later on when he's the most powerful member of the party.  He should still be able to contribute to their efforts after he's cast his Sleep Spell if he's creative (again, my willingness to work with the player).  If he's not satisfied or capable of that, he probably shouldn't be playing a Magic User in the first place.


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## nerfherder

Rel said:
			
		

> It's all very clear now.  That is the direction my games should be headed.



I think it's great that you've re-discovered your sense of wonder.


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## Morrus

Rel, you really should know better.   This is not a 4E thread.  I'm moving it to General.

Really, I don't have time to babysit you.


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## Thornir Alekeg

Sure Rel, we all know you just want to be able to give out your own slimy mule bones to the party and not have the players whining about wealth-by-level guidelines and nerfing the party.  

Seriously, I hope you and your friends all the best with it.  For me I'm looking for a middle ground.  I want some of the great player options and features that really came to life with 3e without bogging the game down as much as it can.  I want more DM lattitude and less prep time, but I also appreciate some of the consistency that can come about with the increased complexity of the rules.  GM fiat is great up to a point but like anything, too much can be just as bad as too little.  

I'm hopeful that 4e will land somewhere near that middle ground I'm looking for.


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## Jdvn1

Rel said:
			
		

> I mean what's at the heart of gaming?  Fun.  Imagination.  Stories.  Mystery.  Magic.
> 
> Seems like I've let those fall by the wayside amid all the discussions of tactics, balance, "what's core?", "does this model reality?", and "where's the verisimilitude?"  When did I start using the word "verisimilitude" on a regular basis anyway?



I agree with all of these sentiments--when I started playing, it was all about fun, imagination, stories, mysteries, and magic. We didn't worry much about modeling reality and never used the word verisimilitude.

... But I started with 3e.

I don't think it's about the system but about how you and your players approach it. I'm not sure I even encountered the word "versimilitude" until EN World, then I would discuss it with my friends.


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## Rodrigo Istalindir

I'll agree that at a certain point, rules can be the enemy of imagination.  But if you've got a good GM and good players who trust him, the rules don't have to get in the way.  They can provide a solid framework within which the players can operate with an understanding of what they should be able to do and what they shouldn't, and the GM is free to disregard the rules when it makes sense to do so.

I'd like to think I can have wonder and imagination and all that in my 3e games, because it also offers me satisfaction in the other areas that 1e doesn't.

As usual, it comes down to the people, not the game.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully

delericho said:
			
		

> Is this really a surprise?



From what perspective? From soneone going into D&D 4 with only 3.5 experience and knowing nothing about its design goals and changes? Absolutely.

For someone totally into the hype of 4E and knowing what the designers are aiming for? I would have been surprised if it didn't work! 

It worked as advertised. I like that. I don't need to create stat-blocks, since the MM has provided them for me. 
To be honest, I am wrong. I created a stat-block, but I didn't use it. I wanted to add a Goblin Minion, but the adventure didn't get to that point. I think it took me 5 minutes to recombine some of the Goblin and Kobold Minion stats. Though I don't know if it would have taken me more then that in 3E - but then, in 3E, I would have already have the "Minion", and instead create the Picador. (And I assume Goblin Minions will be in the real MM, too).

So, no, I was not surprised. I was just happy.


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## Dinkeldog

I've always believed that OD&D is actually the direct progenitor of 3E.  There are actually prestige classes in OD&D (Druid, for example), and it's very miniatures-based.  Granted, we usually put our miniatures on a hex-grid.


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## Flexor the Mighty!

Rel said:
			
		

> Unless it's for moderation, you guys probably don't see me around here much lately.  I've been pondering exactly why that is and I had an epiphany about it this weekend that I knew you'd want to know about:  OD&D is really the direction I want to be headed.
> 
> I mean what's at the heart of gaming?  Fun.  Imagination.  Stories.  Mystery.  Magic.
> 
> Seems like I've let those fall by the wayside amid all the discussions of tactics, balance, "what's core?", "does this model reality?", and "where's the verisimilitude?"  When did I start using the word "verisimilitude" on a regular basis anyway?
> 
> With Gary passing recently, it had me reflecting back on gaming with him this past GenCon and how much *pure fun* that was.  None of the other BS that we're constantly reading about here on the boards.  Just the magic of enjoyment that comes from exploring a dungeon, falling down a 10' pit and smashing skeletons while finding a Shield +1.
> 
> There were no attacks of opportunity (although Gary could have given somebody one if he felt it was warranted:  GM judgement at work).  There was no counting squares.  There was no big list of abilities that could be used 1/day.  There were no skills to track.  We had Sleep and Charm Person and we LIKED IT.  And for anything else you could make a Dex check.
> 
> Just think of how much easier that is to keep track of.  How much easier is it to PREPARE for?!  When I think of running other versions of D&D, I think my players must assume that I am MADE of free time!  And if I'm going to spend the time to prep the game at all then they can certainly live with a more simplified ruleset where I'm granted a bit more GM fiat.
> 
> It's all very clear now.  That is the direction my games should be headed.




Yep.  Great post.  I found some of this simplicity in C&C myself, OD&D is taking it back to square 1 which is sometimes a great thing to do.


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## Rel

Morrus said:
			
		

> Rel, you really should know better.   This is not a 4E thread.  I'm moving it to General.
> 
> Really, I don't have time to babysit you.




Um, boss, you'll note that I used the number "4" right in the thread title.  I thought it was pretty obvious that this was an explanation of my going in a direction _other_ than 4e and was thus relevant to that forum.  As you say, you're pressed for time, so you probably didn't read it that closely.  I'll slide it back over where it belongs.  No hard feelings.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully

> As long as the DM is happy to restrict himself to the bank of pre-generated elements, prep time will be very quick indeed. And, in fact, 3.5e has the edge here, simply by virtue of that bank of pre-generated elements being so much bigger. The real test of 4e prep will come when DMs start advancing monsters, adding class levels and templates (or equivalent), and otherwise stepping off the beaten path. In which area there are big savings to be had, and to be fair to it, 4e is looking pretty good so far.



Here I have to disagree that 3E has a real advantage here. Maybe if I wanted to use the Mind Flayers of Thoom (sp) or a Hogboblin army (and in fact, I might want to do that), but what's with all the other monsters (especially humanoids)? 4E promises me I will get my "themed armies" the moment a monster appears in the book, I don't have to wait for a later book. And, as you say, it seems to provide me "faster" tools to add to them.

The real advantage are the existing adventures. Assuming I didn't already use all that adventures I was interested in in the first place (or am in the process of using them). And that I am not also interested in writing my own, or that easier stat-block creation means it will also be easy to re-use 3E adventures...


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## delericho

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> From what perspective?




In that you created an adventure out of pre-statted monsters, and it was really quick. You would have gotten exactly the same results in any edition of any game. (See also my own example of doing the same in 3.5e.)



> To be honest, I am wrong. I created a stat-block, but I didn't use it. I wanted to add a Goblin Minion, but the adventure didn't get to that point. I think it took me 5 minutes to recombine some of the Goblin and Kobold Minion stats.




This, however, I find much more interesting. Creating custom monsters and NPCs is something that takes rather too long in 3e, and it is reassuring that it appears faster in 4e. (Where 'custom' in this case means "anything we don't already have stats for. As you note, the 4e MM will almost certainly include Goblin minions, and there are multitudes of 3e advanced Goblin stats out there, scattered amongst the thousands of pages of sourcebooks and adventures.)


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## Plane Sailing

Rel said:
			
		

> Um, boss, you'll note that I used the number "4" right in the thread title.  I thought it was pretty obvious that this was an explanation of my going in a direction _other_ than 4e and was thus relevant to that forum.  As you say, you're pressed for time, so you probably didn't read it that closely.  I'll slide it back over where it belongs.  No hard feelings.




Rel, what do you think you're doing? 

This isn't going to go anywhere worthwhile, I'm locking this thread.


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## delericho

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> Here I have to disagree that 3E has a real advantage here. Maybe if I wanted to use the Mind Flayers of Thoom (sp) or a Hogboblin army (and in fact, I might want to do that), but what's with all the other monsters (especially humanoids)?




There are many thousands of stat-blocks in existence for 3e creatures and NPCs. When the 4e Monster Manual is released, there will be a few hundred for 4e. The advantage is pretty clearly with 3e at this time. I expect that will change.

The big problem with stat-blocks for many creatures is knowing where to find them. To get the stats for that Orcish army, you need "Sons of Gruumsh". For kobolds, "Crown of the Kobold King" is probably your best bet. Lizardfolk are in MM4, hobgoblins in MM5. So, finding all these things is a bit tricky.



> 4E promises me I will get my "themed armies" the moment a monster appears in the book, I don't have to wait for a later book. And, as you say, it seems to provide me "faster" tools to add to them.




If it truly is easier to advance and template monsters in 4e than has been the case in 3e, that will be a massive boon.


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## Thornir Alekeg

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> Rel said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Um, boss, you'll note that I used the number "4" right in the thread title. I thought it was pretty obvious that this was an explanation of my going in a direction other than 4e and was thus relevant to that forum. As you say, you're pressed for time, so you probably didn't read it that closely. I'll slide it back over where it belongs. No hard feelings.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rel, what do you think you're doing?
> 
> This isn't going to go anywhere worthwhile, I'm locking this thread.
Click to expand...


Is it April 1st already?


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## Dinkeldog

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> Rel, what do you think you're doing?
> 
> This isn't going to go anywhere worthwhile, I'm locking this thread.




One might have thought an admin would know how to lock a thread by now.  Still it saves me the trouble of unlocking it.

I've got every confidence that our posters here can handle a controversial topic without flying off the handle.


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## el-remmen

Morrus said:
			
		

> Rel, you really should know better.   This is not a 4E thread.  I'm moving it to General.
> 
> Really, I don't have time to babysit you.




Heh. _Someone's_ jealous that they didn't get to that game with Gygax at GEN CON.


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## Dinkeldog

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> Is it April 1st already?




Not by my calendar.  Still, it's a rainy day and a Monday, so...  One more passive-aggressive post like that and I'll have to ask you to not post in this thread again.  Please don't make me do that.


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## Wystan

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> Is it April 1st already?




What difference would that make, I see now that Rel is a Vocal Proponent of doing your own thing, so I will announce that I an going back to V&V (Villains and Vigilantes) D&D with SUPERPOWERS!!!!!


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## Mark

Consider this thread UN-bookmarked.


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## DaveyJones

OD&D(1974) is the only true game. All the other editions are just poor imitations of the real thing.


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## Jdvn1

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> Is it April 1st already?



 Well, considering it's a leap year, kind of!


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## Plane Sailing

OK, I made a mistake and didn't lock it. Fair enough.

However, it DOESN'T belong in the 4e forum. 

OD&D isn't a d20 system game, but since OSRIC is about making older D&D versions available, I think this perhaps belongs in the OGL forum where such stuff is talked about.


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## Dragonblade

Whoa! Edition war and mod war in the same thread!! Its like deities fighting across the planes or something. 

*munches popcorn and sits back to enjoy the show*


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## Piratecat

DaveyJones said:
			
		

> OD&D(1974) is the only true game. All the other editions are just poor imitations of the real thing.



Enough. I've put up with that for eight years. Diaglo, start your own damn website if you want to spout off about OD&D. But I don't see how it's the least bit appropriate for this thread.

Meanwhile, my apologies, folks. I'd like to see certain moderators in the Mod forum, please. We clearly have some discussion about how we handle moderation.

Thread moved to the correct forum.


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## Rel

DaveyJones said:
			
		

> OD&D(1974) is the only true game. All the other editions are just poor imitations of the real thing.




I suppose I'm now coming around to this way of thinking in a way.  I mean not that 3e, 4e, etc. are badwrongfun.  Just that I'm starting to wonder how I ever had a good time with all that complexity.


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## Thornir Alekeg

Dinkeldog said:
			
		

> Not by my calendar.  Still, it's a rainy day and a Monday, so...  One more passive-aggressive post like that and I'll have to ask you to not post in this thread again.  Please don't make me do that.



 You know it is April 1st for our friends in Sydney and Tokyo, but I see how it is. 

Come see the oppression inherent in the system!


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## Nikosandros

Am I missing something? Is there an inside joke between the moderators and others in the know?


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## Charwoman Gene

I can't imagine having a good time with that little complexity.


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## Zaruthustran

I hear you, Rel. But I think you should withhold judgment on 4E, and particularly the specific issue of how DMs function in 4E, until you see the 4E DMG.

So far the only hard rules we've seen have been snippets of a combat demo. Frankly, at this point it's silly to make big dramatic statements for _or_ against the entire 4E game.


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## Charwoman Gene

Nikosandros said:
			
		

> Am I missing something? Is there an inside joke between the moderators and others in the know?




Discussing Moderation is against the rules.
I doubt this is a joke.


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## Rel

I've gone back and edited the first post so that hopefully there will be no further confusion about what forum this thread is supposed to be in.


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## Rodrigo Istalindir

Rel said:
			
		

> I suppose I'm now coming around to this way of thinking in a way.  I mean not that 3e, 4e, etc. are badwrongfun.  Just that I'm starting to wonder how I ever had a good time with all that complexity.




It's probably a result of getting older.  Studies have shown that as you age, your ability to juggle complex tasks and do math on the fly gets worse.  Piratecat can attest to this; notice how he's moved towards Dread, which requires almost no work on the DMs part at all; he never even has to add numbers or roll dice or calculate a DC. 

It's a bell curve; when you're young and inexperienced, OD&D is the game of choice, because otherwise you'd get buried in the complexity.  As you mature (to a certain point) you become intellectually capable of handling harder and harder games.  The comes a time when you find yourself struggling to manage a bunch of conditional modifiers from round to round, not to mention forgetting where you left your glasses and now you can't read the damn numbers on the dice.  I can see how returning to the simplicity of the games of your youth would appeal.  Kinda like wearing Depends is a return to the cradle.


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## Nikosandros

Charwoman Gene said:
			
		

> Discussing Moderation is against the rules.
> I doubt this is a joke.



Well, I was hoping that the argument wasn't real... it looks a bit silly and there is no need to do it in public. Also, PC reply to DaveyJones was a bit strange...

I'm still not entirely convinced that they aren't pulling our leg...


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## Rel

You're really taking this too far.  I'm closing this thread.  Please take the discussion into the Mod Forum.  

- Xath


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## Piratecat

Nikosandros said:
			
		

> Also, PC reply to DaveyJones was a bit strange...



Sorry, I'm just having a bad day. DaveyJones is an alt username for Diaglo. I have a short patience span for certain things, and various problems today are wearing me a bit thin. 

I've asked the mods to resolve this privately.


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## Charwoman Gene

---


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## keterys

I actually had dropped 1e/2e for D&D Cyclopedia* before 3rd came out and converted my campaign over to that. 3rd had a lot of things going for it, but 4e has so far felt like it picked up a lot of what I missed from the D&D Cyclopedia feel. Launched off from the solid math and balance core that 3rd introduced and started to strive for...

Seriously, I am so glad to see more realistic heavy rules crunch take a back seat to quick rules interpretation and fun winging it.

_And_ I don't have to worry about a single sleep spell breaking the game, too? Woo.

* I'm not entirely sure how different BECMI is to D&D Cyclopedia at this point... they certainly looked mostly the same to me, but there was a ten or more year gap between reading 'em and I played more cyclopedia version so it's all muddled.


----------



## Wystan

We all live in a yellow submarine, a yellow submarine, a yellow submarine, but some of us want it to be a purple diving bell, a purple diving bell....

Amber for the masses!!!!!!!


----------



## FickleGM

Damn it.  I forgot to mark "Angry Mod Day" on my calendar. 

Can I pretend to be a mad mod, too?  Better yet, make me a mod for a day and we can have some real fun.


----------



## Wystan

I hate slow web access, Double post deleted....

But I still Say Tunnels and Trolls is a better system than OD&D...


----------



## Wormwood




----------



## Umbran

Folks,

Sorry for the confusion.  There's been a bit of miscommunication going on.  Unfortunate, but occasionally unavoidable.

Whatever issues there may have been, there is content here that's valid for discussion.  So, please continue _with respect_ for your fellow EN World members.


----------



## Ovinomancer

FickleGM said:
			
		

> Damn it.  I forgot to mark "Angry Mod Day" on my calendar.
> 
> Can I pretend to be a mad mod, too?  Better yet, make me a mod for a day and we can have some real fun.





It's all your fault, anyway.


----------



## Imperialus

And Rel tags Umbran who comes into the ring swinging...  But what's that?  Pkitty coming up behind him with a chair?


----------



## Storminator

Can we get a poll for this thread? It really needs one.

PS


----------



## Imperialus

I vote maybe.


----------



## Remathilis

There is more brown and red in this thread than any other one I've seen in a long, long time. Wow.

Onto point: Rel, if you will have more fun in OD&D, have fun with it. I know I can never wrap my brain around many of the inconstancies that muddied my gaming experience with it: blatant inequality of classes, wonky sub-systems, varying high-or-low dice rolling, etc. Not saying 3e or 4e made it all go away, but I cannot, for the life of me, envision going back to the world percentile strength, Thac0, save vs. breath weapon, dual-classing, demi-human level limits, Hide in Shadows %, Cureall, and druids dueling to get past 12th level. 

If you can, hats off. You're a better man than I.


----------



## Desdichado

FickleGM said:
			
		

> Can I pretend to be a mad mod, too?



Only if you wear this outfit.


----------



## Orcus

OK, wow. I missed this whole thing. 

Rel, to expand on your thoughts, I have the "go back to AD&D" thought every now and then. I mean, it is kind of part and parcel of my whole 1E feel thing.  I have even run a few retro games, with old friends. I hate to admit it, but while it is super fun to get those guys together again, as a DM I just couldnt go back to 1E as a system permanently. I could flirt with it, and have, but I just couldnt switch back all the way. Things that before just seemed like goofy inconsistencies now drive me crazy.  YMMV. 

Clark


----------



## Dinkeldog

Remathilis said:
			
		

> There is more brown and red in this thread than any other one I've seen in a long, long time. Wow.
> 
> Onto point: Rel, if you will have more fun in OD&D, have fun with it. I know I can never wrap my brain around many of the inconstancies that muddied my gaming experience with it: blatant inequality of classes, wonky sub-systems, varying high-or-low dice rolling, etc. Not saying 3e or 4e made it all go away, but I cannot, for the life of me, envision going back to the world percentile strength, Thac0, save vs. breath weapon, dual-classing, demi-human level limits, Hide in Shadows %, Cureall, and druids dueling to get past 12th level.
> 
> If you can, hats off. You're a better man than I.




Then house rule them out.  

Except save vs. breath weapon, because if you house rule that out, then you're not playing pre-3E D&D any more.


----------



## Henry

Umbran said:
			
		

> So, please continue _with respect_ for your fellow EN World members.




Yeah, such as it is...


----------



## Desdichado

If Sky Galleons of Mars is migrating to OD&D, then that does it.  I'm moving the NC gameday website out of my bookmarks!


----------



## Storminator

Hobo said:
			
		

> Only if you wear this outfit.
> 
> Snipped image...




He's already wearing that outfit.

PS


----------



## VorpalWarrior69

*ABC Afternoon special?*

Was this a skit put on by the moderators to show us how silly we look when we snipe, snide, and snark at each other?  Cause...well...it got the point across to me, even if unintentional...


----------



## Rykion

Wystan said:
			
		

> I hate slow web access, Double post deleted....
> 
> But I still Say Tunnels and Trolls is a better system than OD&D...



For old school roleplaying feel nothing beats Cops & Robbers or Cowboys & Indians, err I guess Cowpeople & Native Americans these days.  You even get to run around outside and get some exercise.  Unfortunately, those games tended to devolve into rules arguments.  Thankfully, rule 0 and claiming I had a bullet-proof force field always saved the day.


----------



## Rel

Orcus said:
			
		

> OK, wow. I missed this whole thing.
> 
> Rel, to expand on your thoughts, I have the "go back to AD&D" thought every now and then. I mean, it is kind of part and parcel of my whole 1E feel thing.  I have even run a few retro games, with old friends. I hate to admit it, but while it is super fun to get those guys together again, as a DM I just couldnt go back to 1E as a system permanently. I could flirt with it, and have, but I just couldnt switch back all the way. Things that before just seemed like goofy inconsistencies now drive me crazy.  YMMV.
> 
> Clark




Thanks for helping to bring us back on topic, Orcus.  Sorry things went off...on a tangent there for a while.  There have been some lurking tensions but I think we've sorted that out now.

Anyway, my point is that our interests tend to drift over time.  When I was young I played AD&D but longed for something more complex.  Then I played Rolemaster for quite a few years but eventually the complexity started to feel cumbersome.  So we "simplified" and moved to 3e.  Then to 3.5 and then to Warhammer.

But what I've started to see is that the stuff that really matters, the fun, imagination, magic, mystery is all completely independant of the system.  In fact, all but the lightest systems tend to hamper rather than enhance that sort of stuff.  So best to pare things back to the basics as much as possible.  It doesn't get much more basic than OD&D and I think we'll be satisfied with that.  And if any of the players aren't satisfied then maybe they need to look for their gaming elsewhere because I'm serving up the Original Recipe at my table from now on!


----------



## Rodrigo Istalindir

That was uncalled for, Rel (and Xath was nice enough to edit it out, so no one else can see the snark :\ )  You've gotten so touchy you can't even take a joke anymore.  For the record, I'm the same age as Piratecat and I knew I was older than you when I posted it.


----------



## el-remmen

Rel has a point.  

Not every DM is blessed with the skills necessary to run a complex and manipuable ruleset, and/or nor blessed with quick-thinking intelligent players.  Some folks can't handle more than "Advanced Cowboys & Indians".  Who are we to judge them for their diminished capacity?

I for one am tired of the gamer snobbery that goes around here sometimes, and if it weren't for the fact that I can't get in the mod forum since the days of my "semi-retirement" as mod, I would be able to confirm that in there, where the ENworld rules don't apply, there is a lot more passive-aggressive snipes at each others playstyles than you could imagine. . . At least it used to be that way. . .  Russ/Plane-Sailing, I am looking at you.


----------



## SSquirrel

Dragonblade said:
			
		

> Whoa! Edition war and mod war in the same thread!! Its like deities fighting across the planes or something.
> 
> *munches popcorn and sits back to enjoy the show*




Travelling backwards thru time to discover the real cause of the Spellplague and other problems in the Realms, Khelben Blackstaff finds that it was in fact the Great Mod War of 2008 GR (Grognard Reckoning) that shattered the planes and caused such havoc in the world.

I have to agree with Remathilis tho, I can't go backwards b/c of so many of the little things I hate about the earlier editions.  Frankly, I don't think magic-users should be forced to basically do nothing all day, esp at low levels, b/c one fight took the 3 spells they had.  I don't think any one class should be  the most powerful by any real margin at any level.  I started BECMI 20 years ago playing a magic-user even, but I prefer how much closer class equality became in 3E, altho there is obviously still a ways to go.  

Enjoy OD&D, b/c I sure wouldn't for any real length of time.  An occasional one shot, sure. Campaign, no way.


----------



## Ovinomancer

Storminator said:
			
		

> He's already wearing that outfit.
> 
> PS




 He promised he'd only wear it for me.


----------



## Storminator

SSquirrel said:
			
		

> I have to agree with Remathilis tho, I can't go backwards b/c of so many of the little things I hate about the earlier editions.  Frankly, I don't think magic-users should be forced to basically do nothing all day, esp at low levels, b/c one fight took the 3 spells they had.  I don't think any one class should be  the most powerful by any real margin at any level.  I started BECMI 20 years ago playing a magic-user even, but I prefer how much closer class equality became in 3E, altho there is obviously still a ways to go.




It wasn't that bad. It's like the 3rd room you whack the goblins and get the Wand of Fire, then you're 2nd level and you can fireball stuff all day until you're 3rd level. You really only need to live thru one fight with nothing to do.

PS


----------



## Cadfan

A lesson I've learned over the years is that a game system only needs as many rules as are necessary to accomplish its goals.

That's why my favorite systems are, in order,

1: D&D
2: Og: Unearthed
3: Faery's Tale

Why those systems in that order?  Because they each accomplish different goals in different ways.

D&D has two goals that I can see.  The first goal is to be a lifestyle game that rewards extensive investment of time in world creation, character creation, and system mastery.  The second goal is to be fight-porn.  With those goals in mind, I think 4e is probably the best version of D&D out there, in that it strikes the best balance between the various competing interests involved in that goal set (You know, increased fine detail rewards system mastery, but slows fight scenes to a crawl, etc).

Og: Unearthed has the goal of being a fast, easy to play, single evening game, with hijinks and chaotic gameplay.  As a result, its rules are simple enough to learn in a single evening and to use on your first play without difficulty, and they're designed to not get in the way of the largely player driven action.  In a way, its a game that's very comparable to Paranoia, except tuned to one shot game play instead of lifestyle game play.

Faery's Tale is a game designed for children.  Its also more about story telling than tactics.  This means its rules are pretty simple, and most of its "special case" type rules are NOT mechanical advantages.  They're things like "This character is friendly with butterflies, and butterflies will do them favors if they can."  A rule like that would give certain ENWorlder's an absolute aneurysm if it were used in D&D, because it provides no guidance on what kind of favors a butterfly might agree to provide, or what a butterfly can even do.  That's left to the game master to ad lib in the spirit of the game.  But you know what?  While a rule written in that style is a nightmare in a fight-porn game like D&D ("So, wolves do me favors.  I gather the biggest pack of wolves I can and use them as cannon fodder versus the dragon.  What??  Nothing says I can't!"), its entirely appropriate for a game like Faery's Tale.

So... this is all a roundabout way of saying that I'm not sure that OD&D is really the best call.  It has nostalgia value, and that's worth something.  I hate to say it, but if you're not looking for a lifestyle game and you're not looking for fight-porn, an entirely different system might be in order.


----------



## GoodKingJayIII

Yes.


----------



## Rel

Rodrigo Istalindir said:
			
		

> That was uncalled for, Rel (and Xath was nice enough to edit it out, so no one else can see the snark :\ )  You've gotten so touchy you can't even take a joke anymore.  For the record, I'm the same age as Piratecat and I knew I was older than you when I posted it.




Did you not read Umbran's admonition to keep this thread on topic and put aside that other stuff?  Sorry, Rodrigo.  I like you and everything but we'll see you back in three days.


----------



## Rex Blunder

I see where you're going, Rel. I had a very similar experience - I had been playing OD&D for a while, and, honestly, I started getting a little bogged down. There was a lot of DM preparation: drawing a map, and tediously rolling hit points for all the characters AND the monsters AND the cohorts. Not to mention, whenever you level, you have to roll even more hit points!! Plus, I felt that some of the rules were a little too constrictive: for instance, why should a 10' pole cost 1 gold? Maybe in my campaign it costs 10 gold. But the text says "Selection of items is strictly up to the players." Talk about handcuffing the DMs.

Besides, OD&D basically turned it into a superhero/anime game. After all, a level 8 Fighting Man is a "Superhero", and a level 9 Fighting Man is called "Revolutionary Girl Utena!" It just didn't feel like D&D anymore.

I realized that I stopped having fun when the Chainmail Fantasy Supplement came out. My group has gone back to Chainmail, and we've been having a lot of fun. We recently refought the battle of Hastings and saved England for the Saxons!

YMMV of course.


----------



## Eridanis

You've got to be kidding me, Rel. Check your PMs.


----------



## el-remmen

Rel said:
			
		

> Did you not read Umbran's admonition to keep this thread on topic and put aside that other stuff?  Sorry, Rodrigo.  I like you and everything but we'll see you back in three days.




Rel, please check your PMs, because this just is not right for you to do.  Don't make me regret coming to your defense.


----------



## Crothian

OD&D is a nice game.  I got the PDF of it recently.  A lot of world building doesn't have to go into it.  Character creation is a breeze.  We sat down and were ready to play in a little under 30 minutes and it only too that long because some of my players are indecisive.


----------



## wedgeski

It's a red-ink bloodbath! Rather than believe the entire moderation staff of my fave site have collapsed into edition-war anarchy, I will smile and look knowingly at what the date almost is.

And just so all my bases are covered: it's perfectly reasonable to retreat to an older edition when the fancy takes you. One of my gaming pals did it... but then stopped playing altogether. Make of that what you will!


----------



## Umbran

el-remmen said:
			
		

> Rel has a point.





Yes, and that's why I reopened the thread.  However, I stipulated that folks needed to post _with respect_, and you're clearly not showing that.

I'm going to have to ask you to not post in the thread again.  

Please, folks, if you're going to be nasty, just hold it for a while, okay?


----------



## Rel

el-remmen said:
			
		

> Rel, please check your PMs, because this just is not right for you to do.  Don't make me regret coming to your defense.




THAT was defending me?  If so then I'll thank you to stay off of my side in the future.

Ugh.  What a mess this has turned into.  I'm sorry that I ever started this thread now.


----------



## WayneLigon

I can understand the need and want for a simpler rules set. I used to _love _ complex rules sets. I thrived on the rules and loved new classes, new items, new combat modifiers and all that lot. _Loved _ them. (I could also say that I've noticed a broad trend for many younger gamers to want more stability and control over their lives, and rules for a pasttime provide an illusion of that.)

Then as I got older, I came to the realization that was all crap. I embraced 3E and still do, as a nice and complete RPG set of rules that all work mostly the same and seldom at cross purposes. But I find myself over the last eight years wanting more for less. I think the toolbox approach is still the way to go but I want a smaller toolbox, now.

I probably wouldn't go as far as OD&D. The simplicity there is also an illusion created by simple incompleteness. It's something I've wanted to try for a while now, but I strongly suspect it would satisfy me about as well as Tunnels and Trolls did. After a time, it seems you'd go back to the same things that happened when I played OD&D: the GM will spend a lot of time filling in the rules, to the point that you might as well have bought 4E and saved yourself a lot of trouble. That could be a good thing for you, but for me I never could keep the changes straight in my head. In short, yeah, prep time might be shorter but you'll spend a lot more game time arguing about things or trying to do things the rules don't directly cover. 

The way Diaglo handles it is probably the only way, but it seems like a hell of a lot of work on the GM and player's part to me, just from reading his posts over the years. I might be mistaken.

But I agree that I want a simpler rules set. So far, it seems like Savage Worlds will be the way to go but I want to try other RPGs, such as Hollow Earth Expeditions or FATE.


----------



## Yair

:carefully stepping over the remains of the bar fight:

I can certainly see the appeal of simpler games. (Yes, I guess my age is showing.) But why OD&D? Why limit yourself with all its idiosyncratic ways and mechanics? If I want to run a simple game, I prefer a truly simple system like FUDGE. One of the best games I ever run was a Matrix game using There Is No Spoon. Simple games are fun, but OD&D for me is too complex to be simple yet too simple to be complex in an interesting manner. It doesn't do what it sets out to do well - it doesn't provide the rules robustness and flexibility I want from a game centering around killing things and taking their stuff, kicking down dungeon doors, and masterminding political upheavals in a pseudo-medieval fantasy setting. I'm not sure what's the idea system for that is. I doubt if it's 4e, I'm leaning more towards M&M with elements of 4e and IH thrown in - but I don't think it's OD&D, and indeed think 4e will do it better than OD&D. (It will have more robust rules, giving proper guidance to the DM when whipping up opponents; it will allow great flexibility and tactical fun for players; it will provide social skills and systems to found poltics on; and so on.)


----------



## Victim

What I like in gaming is the gaming.  I like playing games.  If the mechanical system of an RPG doesn't provide at least one fun game, then what's the point?  I don't really want to play something where the best strategy is manipulating the DM as opposed to rules elements.


----------



## Morrus

This thread is getting ridiculous.  In addition, any discussion about wanting to make rule-sets "simpler" clearly belongs in House Rules.  So I'm moving this thread there.


----------



## Wormwood

VorpalWarrior69 said:
			
		

> Was this a skit put on by the moderators to show us how silly we look when we snipe, snide, and snark at each other?  Cause...well...it got the point across to me, even if unintentional...


----------



## Storminator

WayneLigon said:
			
		

> I probably wouldn't go as far as OD&D. The simplicity there is also an illusion created by simple incompleteness. It's something I've wanted to try for a while now, but I strongly suspect it would satisfy me about as well as Tunnels and Trolls did.




Just stop right there. Don't even compare D&D to Tunnels and Trolls. T&T was a joke, and a badly done one at that.

PS


----------



## Irda Ranger

Best. Thread. Evar.   On several levels. 

I also like the topic, so regardless of whether this Mod-Fight is real or April Fools, I do have something to say ...



			
				Rel said:
			
		

> Anyway, my point is that our interests tend to drift over time.  When I was young I played AD&D but longed for something more complex.  <_snip_>   But what I've started to see is that the stuff that really matters, the fun, imagination, magic, mystery is all completely independent of the system.  In fact, all but the lightest systems tend to hamper rather than enhance that sort of stuff.  So best to pare things back to the basics as much as possible.  It doesn't get much more basic than OD&D and I think we'll be satisfied with that.




I've heard this siren call myself.  Since my wallet wasn't tied to the mast I ran out and bought the OD&D PDF's from RPGNow and all the Castles & Crusades books from the Trolls.  I was bound and determined run some good, old school fun.  I wanted "simply fun", and this was going to be it.

But I found there was a real difference between "simple" and "good."  Simple can be a lot of thins. It can be elegant and efficient, but it can also be boring or stupid. There are lots of simple games out there that are no fun at all. Simple does not always equal good.

And in OD&D/C&C's case, simple did not equal good (enough ... for me). I found I just couldn't live with classes that were wildly out of whack with each other. It wasn't "fun" to be the Wizard at 1st level or the Fighter at 12th+ level. It wasn't fun to play a PC for two years and have him die on a single d20 roll. Etc. Even if we don't talk about builds or class-balance at my table (such talk is rare), I know the problem is there and it irritates me.

This close to D&D 4E's release I don't think its the wisest course to commit to any one edition of D&D. 4E may turn out not be as suited to your tastes as OD&D, but it's not like WotC hasn't learned from the short-comings of 3.5E's "too many rules, too much work" problem. It may yet be the imperfect best system. Let's get some "all the rules" playtests under our belts and see what happens in June.


----------



## Alt Boy!

Personally I think 4e should have gone the other direction.

I should start looking around for people for my FATAL campaign...


----------



## Jack99

I feel much the same way. I have considered switching back to an older edition, since I am looking for a simpler game, but it sounds like 4e will be just that, with more class balance as well, because frankly, 3.5 gets ridiculous at double digit levels.

(just had to post in this awesome thread)


----------



## Thornir Alekeg

el-remmen said:
			
		

> Some folks can't handle more than "Advanced Cowboys & Indians".



 I find this to be a bit insulting.  As a kid I did my fair share of LARPing with "Cowboys and Indians" and "Cops and Robbers," and I've introduced the games to my own children.  Perhaps you think playing without a written rulebook is overly simplistic, but determining if someone was shot, and if they were how many shots it takes to kill them is far from a simple matter.  And I cannot tell you just how complex the game can get when the cop is suddenly transformed into knight and the robber becomes a huge dragon.  Maintaining game balance in those situations is very difficult.


----------



## Rel

Irda Ranger said:
			
		

> Let's get some "all the rules" playtests under our belts and see what happens in June.




I'll be damned if I'm going to wait until June to start having fun.  

OD&D may not be perfect.  But have you seen some of the comments made about me here at ENW?  Go check some of the GenCon threads if necessary.  I hate to toot my own horn but I'm a REALLY good GM.  I feel certain that whatever rough spots OD&D has I can smooth them out and make them shine.


----------



## Dinkeldog

wedgeski said:
			
		

> It's a red-ink bloodbath! Rather than believe the entire moderation staff of my fave site have collapsed into edition-war anarchy, I will smile and look knowingly at what the date almost is.
> 
> And just so all my bases are covered: it's perfectly reasonable to retreat to an older edition when the fancy takes you. One of my gaming pals did it... but then stopped playing altogether. Make of that what you will!




Actually, I think I have it.  The moon did enter Aquarius just a little before Rel started this gooberiffic thread, so clearly it's being caused by the combination of conflicting the emotional state (shown by the moon) with the clear thought brought on by Aquarius--the Thinker of the Zodiac.  It's probably got him confusing heart and mind--shown by a reversion to the childlike OD&D as opposed to the more mature 4E.


----------



## Einan

I never played OD&D.  What's the specific appeal?


----------



## Nikosandros

Storminator said:
			
		

> Just stop right there. Don't even compare D&D to Tunnels and Trolls. T&T was a joke, and a badly done one at that.



My experience with T&T is very limited, but there are people who enjoy it. You might not like it, but certainly it is no joke.


----------



## Dinkeldog

Wait, now we have another admin who doesn't understand basic board operations?  

That's okay, Russ, I'll move it back for you.


----------



## Irda Ranger

Rel said:
			
		

> I'll be damned if I'm going to wait until June to start having fun.



Oh c'mon. Is this a real response to my post? I said you shouldn't commit to one system over the other when "the other system" hasn't been released yet. I never said to not have a blast with OD&D between now and June.



			
				Rel said:
			
		

> I feel certain that whatever rough spots OD&D has I can smooth them out and make them shine.



I have people who do that for me. His name is mearls.


----------



## WyzardWhately

Einan said:
			
		

> I never played OD&D.  What's the specific appeal?




Pretty difficult to describe, really.  I mean, I love the older versions of the game.  The rules were much simpler, and didn't really try to cover everything you might do.  Most things came down to DM adjudication and an attribute check.  There was also an intangible aura about the game that seems to have been lost.

There was much more "feel" to the game, things like danger, mystery, exploration, and etc.  It felt closer to its old-school sword & sorcery roots.  Things weren't as clean, and there weren't a lot of implied setting elements that would make the game world feel too modern or explored.


----------



## Rex Blunder

Rel said:
			
		

> I hate to toot my own horn but I'm a REALLY good GM. I feel certain that whatever rough spots OD&D has I can smooth them out and make them shine.




YES! Exactly. A bad DM can ruin even a good rule system. Therefore the converse is true. It's called ELEMENTARY LOGIC people!

Since we're in the Houserules Forum, let me just mention that I employed a house rule for OD&D called "Every Time You Want To Do Something, Just Roll a d6 and If You Get a 6, You Succeed, And If You Get A One, Your Guy Dies". I won't get into all the specifics of <i>exactly</i> how this rule worked, but I will say that it effectively replaced a lot of subsystems and modelled reality to a sometimes alarming degree. Sometimes it was spooky.

If Rel is anything like me (and by definition, he is, since I am also a REALLY good GM) he is undoubtedly using the same rule.


----------



## Nikosandros

Morrus said:
			
		

> This thread is getting ridiculous.  In addition, any discussion about wanting to make rule-sets "simpler" clearly belongs in House Rules.  So I'm moving this thread there.



Let me suggest moving this thread to a random board every 1d4 + 1 turns.


----------



## Einan

WyzardWhately said:
			
		

> There was also an intangible aura about the game that seems to have been lost.




Was this attributable to it being the first of its kind most people encountered or is there some sort of unreplicated element to the game?


----------



## Alt Boy!

Nikosandros said:
			
		

> Let me suggest moving this thread to a random board every 1d4 + 1 turns.




Give the MODS some SLACK!  :


----------



## Henry

Morrus said:
			
		

> This thread is getting ridiculous.  In addition, any discussion about wanting to make rule-sets "simpler" clearly belongs in House Rules.  So I'm moving this thread there.




Russell, please see my post in the Mod forum. We REALLY need to talk.


----------



## Nikosandros

Alt Boy! said:
			
		

> Give the MODS some SLACK!  :



I think that they are making fun of us...


----------



## Rex Blunder

WyzardWhately said:
			
		

> There was also an intangible aura about the game that seems to have been lost.






			
				Einan said:
			
		

> Was this attributable to it being the first of its kind most people encountered or is there some sort of unreplicated element to the game?




No, it was a definite real aura. 10' radius.


----------



## Storminator

Nikosandros said:
			
		

> Let me suggest moving this thread to a random board every 1d4 + 1 turns.




P.E.A.C.H. this version:

Move Thread (standard, recharge 5, 6)
Mod can move thread to new forum. No opportunity attacks.

PS


----------



## Rodrigo Istalindir

Rel said:
			
		

> Did you not read Umbran's admonition to keep this thread on topic and put aside that other stuff? Sorry, Rodrigo. I like you and everything but we'll see you back in three days.




Hmmm.  I logged in from home and I can post just fine.  That was a quick three days.

So let me continue the discussion.

Old-school only works if everyone at the table buys into it.  If that's the case, then fine.  But it's going to be increasingly hard to find people willing to go retro *and* agree on what all the DMs rulings should be.  Since most gamers will be coming from a 3e/4e background, there going to be working on the assumption that that's how things work, and the more the DM deviates from those expectations, the rougher things will be.  So you may as well have all the rules, anyway.


----------



## Irda Ranger

Nikosandros said:
			
		

> Let me suggest moving this thread to a random board every 1d4 + 1 turns.




Random Forum Generator (Tab. 12.5) - Roll 2d12%
1 - 15% - General 
16 - 30% - 4th Edition
31 - 45% - D&D Rules
46 - 60% - House Rules
61 - 70% - Pathfinder, d20, etc.
71 - 80% - Plots, Places & Rogues
81-90% - Roll on the Industry Forums Table (Tab. 12.6)
91-95% - Roll on the Gaming Action Table (Tab. 12.7)
95-97% - Roll on the Non RPG-Specific Forums Table (Tab. 12.8)
97-99% - Roll on the Hosted Sites Table (Tab. 12.9)
00% - Roll on the Meta - Forums About Forums Table (Tab. 12.10)
101%+ - Roll Twice. Clone thread and move to both results.


----------



## Grazzt

Storminator said:
			
		

> P.E.A.C.H. this version:
> 
> Move Thread (standard, recharge 5, 6)
> Mod can move thread to new forum. No opportunity attacks.
> 
> PS




No good. Rel's not going to 4e. Need to rewrite this in OD&D terms.


----------



## Hypersmurf

Cadfan said:
			
		

> Faery's Tale is a game designed for children.




Just like 4E!

The thing is, 4E is designed to be simple by being streamlined - everything falling under consistent mechanics.  And we _still_ see people getting rules wrong, even though there are only a few rules we know so far.

Rel's point, I think, is that OD&D is simple by being loose, and so it's much harder to get a rule 'wrong', since it's not really possible to get a rule 'right', either.

If it were up to me, I'd probably put the thread back in the 4E forum - I think that the comparison between OD&D and 4E is at the heart of what Rel is saying.  But I like my job too much, and I'm not going to risk sticking an oar in right now.

-Hyp.


----------



## Nikosandros

Rodrigo Istalindir said:
			
		

> Old-school only works if everyone at the table buys into it.  If that's the case, then fine.  But it's going to be increasingly hard to find people willing to go retro *and* agree on what all the DMs rulings should be.  Since most gamers will be coming from a 3e/4e background, there going to be working on the assumption that that's how things work, and the more the DM deviates from those expectations, the rougher things will be.  So you may as well have all the rules, anyway.



I'm currently running an AD&D game. Except for a player that has 2e experience all the others came from a 3e background and things are working just fine for us.


----------



## Desdichado

Umbran said:
			
		

> Please, folks, if you're going to be nasty, just hold it for a while, okay?



I told you already I was sorry about the burrito bar incident, but I couldn't hold it any more.


----------



## Hypersmurf

Storminator said:
			
		

> P.E.A.C.H. this version:




Our policy on cross-board trolling is not negotiable.

Storminator, don't post in this thread again.

-Hyp.
(Moderator)


----------



## Xath

In an actual response to this thread (since it obviously can't remain closed... :\)

I think it's ridiculous for you to renounce a game you haven't even played or read through yet.  Even when I played the 4e preview at D&D XP, I wasn't ready to issue final judgement on it, and I won't until I've seen the whole thing.  

And as for OD&D?  I guess I can see how the nostalgia wave is hitting due to recent events, but face it.  That game is seriously flawed.  Even supposedly "fantastic GMs" would be hard pressed to get a serious, story-driven campaign out of that system.


----------



## Riley

[Cure Moderate Wounds]


----------



## Voadam

delericho said:
			
		

> There are many thousands of stat-blocks in existence for 3e creatures and NPCs. When the 4e Monster Manual is released, there will be a few hundred for 4e. The advantage is pretty clearly with 3e at this time. I expect that will change.
> 
> The big problem with stat-blocks for many creatures is knowing where to find them. To get the stats for that Orcish army, you need "Sons of Gruumsh". For kobolds, "Crown of the Kobold King" is probably your best bet. Lizardfolk are in MM4, hobgoblins in MM5. So, finding all these things is a bit tricky.




For tons of useful statblocks check out Creative Conclave's Lazy GM's series.

I hate the series title as much as I do the "Idiot's Guide to" and "For Dummies" title series names but I love the product concept for my 3.5 games.

Orcs http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=55095&filters=0_0_0&manufacturers_id=807

Kobolds http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=50254&filters=0_0_0&manufacturers_id=807

Lizard Men http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=50255&filters=0_0_0&manufacturers_id=807





> If it truly is easier to advance and template monsters in 4e than has been the case in 3e, that will be a massive boon.




Agreed.


----------



## Henry

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> If it were up to me, I'd probably put the thread back in the 4E forum - I think that the comparison between OD&D and 4E is at the heart of what Rel is saying.  But I like my job too much, and I'm not going to risk sticking an oar in right now.
> 
> -Hyp.




I also think Russ is being MORE than a bit unfair with Rel, but I'd rather not get into it.

Hell, I've had my doubts about 4e lately, myself, but this is not a respectful way to handle just because you disagree. I've got plans for an OD&D game this coming weekend, myself, just to show my gaming group what it's like.


----------



## Dausuul

Nikosandros said:
			
		

> Let me suggest moving this thread to a random board every 1d4 + 1 turns.




And a chart!  We need a chart to roll on, to determine which board.  Any thread about going back to old-school D&D needs a chart.  (Edit: Looks like Irda Ranger is ahead of me.)



			
				Einan said:
			
		

> Was this attributable to it being the first of its kind most people encountered or is there some sort of unreplicated element to the game?




No, I think there is actually an unreplicated element.  (I think this because I recently ran a BECMI game for a bunch of people who'd never played it before and they loved it, with at least one going so far as to say it was his new favorite edition barring 4E.)

At least one unreplicated (to me, anyway) element in OD&D is the thrill.  It's a dangerous frickin' world for an OD&D character.  Every time you turn around you have to roll a die, and if that die comes up wrong, you drop dead.  If you go to zero hit points, you drop dead.  Sometimes you drop dead just because.  The only thing standing between you and destruction is the will of the dice and the uncertain whim of the DM.  And because of that, when you win, it's exciting as hell.


----------



## Jdvn1

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> If it were up to me, I'd probably put the thread back in the 4E forum - I think that the comparison between OD&D and 4E is at the heart of what Rel is saying.  But I like my job too much, and I'm not going to risk sticking an oar in right now.



Maybe Rel would be happy with a 4E OD&D conversion? If so, this could go in the little-loved Conversions subforum.


----------



## Rodrigo Istalindir

Nikosandros said:
			
		

> I'm currently running an AD&D game. Except for a player that has 2e experience all the others came from a 3e background and things are working just fine for us.




But are you ruling more or less according to what 3e would do anyway?  And if you added a new player that started with 4e, how would he adapt?

The problem with DM arbitration for everything is consistency of expectations on the part of the player.  Not saying it can't be done, just that it gets harder and harder.  And it's one of the things that they've tried to avoid with 3e and moreso with 4e.


----------



## Rel

Rodrigo Istalindir said:
			
		

> Hmmm.  I logged in from home and I can post just fine.  That was a quick three days.
> 
> So let me continue the discussion.




No, let's NOT continue the discussion.  Obviously I was distracted and must not have entered the ban correctly.  I'm going to to sort out whatever technical issue I bungled but I'd appreciate it if you would respect the "spirit" of the ban and not post any further for right now.  ESPECIALLY in this thread.

In fact you posting that rather than e-mailing me about it is pretty disrespectful and I'm going to lengthen your ban to 7 days.  I really expected more of you, Rod.


----------



## Hypersmurf

Xath said:
			
		

> Even supposedly "fantastic GMs" would be hard pressed to get a serious, story-driven campaign out of that system.




Let's not confuse ourselves here.  Rel isn't after a 'serious, story-driven campaign'.  He said 'fun'.

Poles apart.

-Hyp.


----------



## Rex Blunder

Grazzt said:
			
		

> No good. Rel's not going to 4e. Need to rewrite this in OD&D terms.




MODS: Mods can move this thread to a new forum, once per post. Mods cannot be affected by normal missile fire, but silver-tipped arrows will score normal damage, and magic arrows will score double hits upon them. Posters banned by Mods become Mods in 1-6 days.


----------



## Rel

Oh THAT is just ing great!

Ok  it.  I'm out of here.


----------



## Charwoman Gene

Nikosandros said:
			
		

> I think that they are making fun of us...




"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity."


----------



## Grazzt

Rex Blunder said:
			
		

> MODS: Mods can move this thread to a new forum, once per post. Mods cannot be affected by normal missile fire, but silver-tipped arrows will score normal damage, and magic arrows will score double hits upon them. Posters banned by Mods become Mods in 1-6 days.




Not bad.  Close to how I would've done it as well. And since it's OD&D, I can easily house rule it without tearing apart the rest of the system. Well done.


----------



## Nikosandros

Rodrigo Istalindir said:
			
		

> But are you ruling more or less according to what 3e would do anyway?



Not really. I'm really playing it more or less fast and loose with things like movement. We normally use individual initiative with speed factors (a house rule), but during the last time, since the were a lot of combatants between monsters, PC and hirelings, I just switched in the middle to group initiative. None of the players had a problem with such an "inconsistent" ruling.


----------



## mhensley

this thread=








If there's one thing I learned over the years it's to play what your players want.  Trying to make guys play a game they don't like leads to fail.  If they're cool with OD&D, you're golden.  If not, expect a lot of frustration on both sides.


----------



## Einan

Was the unduplicated element in OD&D the fact that so much was determined by mere chance?  Does this imply that removing DM control and placing more emphasis on random results would cause any version to have more of the thrill factor?


----------



## Cadfan

Einan said:
			
		

> I never played OD&D.  What's the specific appeal?



Nostalgia.


----------



## Riley

Irda Ranger said:
			
		

> Random Forum Generator (Tab. 12.5) - Roll 2d12%
> 1 - 15% - General
> 16 - 30% - 4th Edition
> 31 - 45% - D&D Rules
> 46 - 60% - House Rules
> 61 - 70% - Pathfinder, d20, etc.
> 71 - 80% - Plots, Places & Rogues
> 81-90% - Roll on the Industry Forums Table (Tab. 12.6)
> 91-95% - Roll on the Gaming Action Table (Tab. 12.7)
> 95-97% - Roll on the Non RPG-Specific Forums Table (Tab. 12.8)
> 97-99% - Roll on the Hosted Sites Table (Tab. 12.9)
> 00% - Roll on the Meta - Forums About Forums Table (Tab. 12.10)
> 101%+ - Roll Twice. Clone thread and move to both results.





01: 2d3 Type IV Demons are gated in.  The thread is locked.
02: One Type [2d3] Demon is gated in.  The second poster in the thread is banned from posting in that thread for 1d7 days.
03-07: Roll twice on the Hordelings table.  Choose the taller of the two results.  3d12 posters are banned from posting in 1d14 threads for 7d2 days.  The thread is relocated to the Moderator Schmoderator Forum.
08-10: Xvarts attack!  For each thread, add two minor powers from Table 14a, and one major power from table 17c.  All threads are relocated to the Archive, and filed under Moderator Forum.


----------



## Charwoman Gene

I like Gomez Addams.


----------



## der_kluge

Whoa, I better sneak this in before the thread gets closed.

There's a difference between the "out of game" loop and the "in game" loop. To me, it doesn't really matter how complicated character creation is - so long as it doesn't bog down the inner game loop, which is combat. When you've got all these modifiers and stacking/not stacking rules, and keeping track of durations of spell effects, and all this other crap, it can really bog down.

But having a nicely defined skill list and feat selection largely don't affect the in-game loop. Sure, it might make players take a little longer to decide on their action, but I think it does add a lot to the game.

I run, what I consider, to be an "old school" kind of game, but I've managed to do that within the 3.5 ruleset. Specifically, I've found the E6 ruleset, which I think accomplishes this very nicely, and very easily.

Furthermore, a few simple houserules, and the ability to "handwave" a lot of crap can really speed up play.

Lastly, I think "old school" is as much a feeling as it is a mechanic.


----------



## Nikosandros

mhensley said:
			
		

> If there's one thing I learned over the years it's to play what your players want.  Trying to make guys play a game they don't like leads to fail.  If they're cool with OD&D, you're golden.  If not, expect a lot of frustration on both sides.



Well, that's a given. RPGs are a group activity and the decision on what to play must be reached by consensus. The simple idea of forcing someone to play something is rather absurd to me...


----------



## Remathilis




----------



## Delta

Cadfan said:
			
		

> Nostalgia.




A response: http://www.philotomy.com/#glasses


----------



## Blackrat

So if Rel quit can I have his place? I can use the Green Letters, see.


----------



## Charwoman Gene

Blackrat said:
			
		

> So if Rel quit can I have his place? I can use the Green Letters, see.




I already have the job.  See you after your 2.3 day ban.

I've been fired, never mind.


----------



## Delta

Dinkeldog said:
			
		

> There are actually prestige classes in OD&D (Druid, for example), and it's very miniatures-based.




You're thinking of BXCMI -- in OD&D Supplements, druid was another base class. It was BXCMI that made Druids branch off Clerics.

The earliest prestige class thing that I know of was Bards from the AD&D 1E PHB.


----------



## Baka no Hentai

I have to agree with Xorn on the point of finding it next to impossible to run a complex, story-driven campaign with OD&D. Maybe it is just lack of experience on my part, as I never played OD&D much before I got into AD&D... but the framework just doesnt seem cut out for the type of games I run.

It all comes down I guess to what type of game you like to run, for Rel it seems to be straight up fun. For me, its about the story, and the rules are just a medium for the players to interact with the game world that we are creating. If 4E ends up enabling me to tell the story better, then thats what I will use. 

Oh, and I have to concur with others in saying that this thread delivers!


----------



## Storminator

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> Our policy on cross-board trolling is not negotiable.
> 
> Storminator, don't post in this thread again.
> 
> -Hyp.
> (Moderator)




Wait?! Whaaa?

That's not trolling. This thread needs politeness and honesty more than any other.

PS


----------



## Rex Blunder

Charwoman Gene said:
			
		

> I like Gomez Addams




I just John Astin (the actor who played Gomez) in Samuel Beckett's "Krapp's Last Tape" recently in Baltimore.

He was pretty good. I would probably watch it again, once or twice. But somehow it didn't "feel like John Astin" anymore.  For one thing, he ate several bananas, which he never did in The Addams Family, as far as I remember. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.


----------



## mhensley

Really Old School D&D Rules-

Character Creation:  choose a class- fighting man, magic user, or cleric.

Play: 

Roll 1d6-
1-5: You were killed in the dungeon.  Roll on the Death Table and create a new character.
6: You survived the dungeon and got a big treasure.  Go you!

Death
1- killed by an orc
2- fell in a pit
3- poisoned
4- level drained
5- turned to stone
6- dissolved by green slime


----------



## Thornir Alekeg

Rex Blunder said:
			
		

> No, it was a definite real aura. 10' radius.



 Was that a shot at the hygiene of old-school gamers?  If it was I can tell you that there are plenty of 3.5 players I've encountered in the FLGS that could really use an introduction to the concept of soap.


----------



## Aeson

edited.


----------



## WyzardWhately

Einan said:
			
		

> Was this attributable to it being the first of its kind most people encountered or is there some sort of unreplicated element to the game?




I'd say unreplicated element.  My reasoning for this is as follows:  I sorta started gaming with 2nd ed, but never really got to play until 3rd.  I played 3rd for a quite a while, and then went back to start looking through 1E, RC, BECMI, and OD&D.  I get this frisson from those games that I didn't with 3.x, and I know I'm not alone.  

The possibility that it's just the first game one encountered doesn't hold up, because I didn't get to play any substantial amount of the earlier versions until AFTER I was already well-versed in the new ones.


----------



## Wisdom Penalty

Aha!  This is what I have been waiting for!  It's time for me to be the hero of EN World.

NO ONE gets their account suspended more quickly than me.  It's my name, dammit.

In order to take the attention away from the in-fighting amongst the mods, I shall type up a witty, brilliant, and ultimately ban-worthy post.

I only need a couple things:

1) Piratecat. He's the master when it comes to kicking me off for a couple days.

2) Someone to post something completely off-base, preferably with a great dose of negativity and bitterness.  Normally I look to ByronD or Hobo for such triggering events.  Gentlemen, would you please do me the favor of posting?


W.P.


p.s. In all serious, as I managed to say when I snagged the #2 post on this thread, I think Rel had a point that's probably common amongst many of us old-time gamers. He's opted to go one route (oD&D) and others are opting to another (4E).  Not sure if I see where the evilness is hiding in that post, and I'm all about trying to find evil.


----------



## Morrus

Blackrat said:
			
		

> So if Rel quit can I have his place? I can use the Green Letters, see.




He didn't quit.  He was politely asked to leave.

And, frankly, I've had just about enough of this.  I'm tempted to just sign on the dotted line at which point it won't be my problem any more.


----------



## Thornir Alekeg

Morrus said:
			
		

> He didn't quit.  He was politely asked to leave.
> 
> And, frankly, I've had just about enough of this.  I'm tempted to just sign on the dotted line at which point it won't be my problem any more.



 Is Eric Noah going to buy the site back from you?  I really, really hope so, because at least then the name EE EN World would make sense again.


----------



## Blackrat

Morrus said:
			
		

> He didn't quit.  He was politely asked to leave.
> 
> And, frankly, I've had just about enough of this.  I'm tempted to just sign on the dotted line at which point it won't be my problem any more.



Well the thing is Morrus, after this, I have to say the offer has gone down 30%.


----------



## mhensley

This has to be an early April Fool's joke.  Why else hasn't this thread been locked down for good?


----------



## hafrogman

Blackrat said:
			
		

> Well the thing is Morrus, after this, I have to say the offer has gone down 30%.



Oooh!  Oooh!  Can I be your evil henchling?  I do a good hunchback, and have the leer down pat.  Once you kill buy out Morrus, you'll be needing new Admins.  I never liked the look of Piratecat.  Shifty, you know?

So yeah, buy him out.  The time for the Hiveocracy has come!


----------



## FickleGM

Out of the thread. 

- Xath


----------



## Tewligan

Grazzt said:
			
		

> No good. Rel's not going to 4e. Need to rewrite this in OD&D terms.



Any player may attempt to move a thread as desired - is not such action the very meat and drink of heroic fantasy? However, as adjudicator and sole authority of his crafted milieu, it falls fully upon the capable shoulders of the Dungeon Master to determine the result of any attempt to do so, be it for weal or woe. Do not be swayed by impassioned pleas or appeals to the rules on the part of the hapless players, Gentle Dungeon Master! Only by weighing the possibilities of such an action against a myriad of other factors to be considered when making your decision will you make a ruling that is fair, sensible, and above all else fun for all involved parties. And is that not the true crux of the game, Gentle Reader?

(Damn, I wish the Colonel was still around...)


----------



## mhensley

hafrogman said:
			
		

> I never liked the look of Piratecat.  Shifty, you know?




I see what you mean.


----------



## Blackrat

hafrogman said:
			
		

> Oooh!  Oooh!  Can I be your evil henchling?  I do a good hunchback, and have the leer down pat.  Once you kill buy out Morrus, you'll be needing new Admins.  I never liked the look of Piratecat.  Shifty, you know?
> 
> So yeah, buy him out.  The time for the Hiveocracy has come!



Yeah, I know what you mean. Never trust a cat my mom used to say. They betrayed us almost a millenia ago. We rats don't forget. Time for the Hive Uprising. From now on All Hail the Hive!


----------



## Dinkeldog

Moved to Meta because people are talking about board rules.


----------



## Zaruthustran

Blackrat said:
			
		

> Well the thing is Morrus, after this, I have to say the offer has gone down 30%.




I'll offer whatever this guy offered you, +1d6%.


----------



## GnomeWorks

Morrus said:
			
		

> He didn't quit.  He was politely asked to leave.
> 
> And, frankly, I've had just about enough of this.  I'm tempted to just sign on the dotted line at which point it won't be my problem any more.




Man, please, don't do it.

I've been here for seven years, now. You've always been the guy in charge, since I've been around. You've brought this board through so much, like the massive server change in January of '02. It hasn't been easy, running this place, but you've stuck with it, and you've done a fantastic job doing it. There's a reason folks like me keep coming back.

I've seen the change in the boards, the past eight, nine months. It has gotten to be a bit of a rougher place. But I was here before that, and I know that this community is - for the most part - full of decent, helpful folk. I've seen more orange and red text in the past nine months than I think I've seen in the six years before that.

But there's a reason for all this, and I'm sure you recognize it: 4e's coming is polarizing the community. We've got a lot of people who are, for one reason or another, rather uptight about it. There are heated discussions that turn into flamewars, whereas before the participants may have backed off and simmered a bit before returning. That isn't happening now, because this is a massive change in our hobby. We're all a bit defensive; some of us handle that defensiveness better than others.

My point, Morrus, is that this place is hectic right now, yes. It may even get worse before it gets better. But at some point, those who are pro-4e and those who aren't moving to it will settle their differences, and we'll move on. It'll take awhile, but it'll happen. We just have to get through this rough period, and then it'll be smoother sailing.

So, please, don't give up. Not now. We need these boards now more than ever.


----------



## Morrus

This is clearly an Off Topic thread at this point.  Off it goes!


----------



## Jdvn1

hafrogman said:
			
		

> I never liked the look of Piratecat.  Shifty, you know?



What kind of respectable message board trusts pirates as admins? Maybe they're pandering to their audience...


----------



## mhensley

Morrus said:
			
		

> This is clearly an Off Topic thread at this point.  Off it goes!




You guys are being too obvious with this now.


----------



## Piratecat

Rel said:
			
		

> Oh THAT is just ing great!
> 
> Ok  it.  I'm out of here.



News flash. People who whine, then stomp off in a huff with their toys? _Not_ impressive. We have one fewer moderators, folks, and an early apology to the people I was going to GM for at the NC game day. After some of the conversation we've had today in the mod forum, I'm no longer comfortable at Rel's game day. I'm sorry.

Russ, I'm well aware that you're pissed. Just don't do anything stupid.


----------



## Rex Blunder

Morrus said:
			
		

> This is clearly an Off Topic thread at this point. Off it goes!




Great! Who has something else to say about Gomez Addams?


----------



## Blackrat

Morrus said:
			
		

> This is clearly an Off Topic thread at this point.  Off it goes!



Ha! It came to the Hive. The Hive Uprising has started. Soon we'll rule all!

Froggy! Where's that henchling when I need him.


----------



## hafrogman

Morrus said:
			
		

> This is clearly an Off Topic thread at this point.  Off it goes!



WOO HOO!  It's arrived, it's arrived!

*ahem*

I claim this thread in the name of the off-topic gestalt.  Welcome to the new home of the Hive.  You will now all be added to the collective.  Welcome to the Hivemind.

One of us!
One of us!


----------



## hafrogman

Blackrat said:
			
		

> Froggy! Where's that henchling when I need him.



Yeth, marthter?

*drool*


----------



## Zaruthustran

Piratecat said:
			
		

> News flash. People who whine, then stomp off in a huff with their toys? _Not_ impressive. We have one fewer moderators, folks, and an early apology to the people I was going to GM for at the NC game day. After some of the conversation we've had today in the mod forum, I'm no longer comfortable at Rel's game day. I'm sorry.
> 
> Russ, I'm well aware that you're pissed. Just don't do anything stupid.




If this is real, then that's sad news. Piratecat is best GM ever.


----------



## Mistwell

This is a fine start to April.
I marvel at the brave Fools willing to participate.


----------



## Nikosandros

GnomeWorks said:
			
		

> Man, please, don't do it.



Too late. I already bought the site. From now onwards, the site will be exclusively dedicated to the Italian RPG Kata Kumbas, based on Mediterranean folklore, because frankly I had enough of all this elves, dwarves and assorted pseudo-Germanic nonsense.


----------



## hafrogman

Rex Blunder said:
			
		

> Great! Who has something else to say about Gomez Addams?



I kinda like it when he talks French.  It . . . does things to me.


----------



## Morrus

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Russ, I'm well aware that you're pissed. Just don't do anything stupid.




I may be a little drunk and angry right now, but I know what I'm doing.  This has been coming for a long time, and you know it.


----------



## Blackrat

hafrogman said:
			
		

> Yeth, marthter?
> 
> *drool*



Convert everyone to Hivers!


Well what are you waiting for, get to it.


----------



## Jdvn1

hafrogman said:
			
		

> WOO HOO!  It's arrived, it's arrived!
> 
> *ahem*
> 
> I claim this thread in the name of the off-topic gestalt.  Welcome to the new home of the Hive.  You will now all be added to the collective.  Welcome to the Hivemind.
> 
> One of us!
> One of us!



 Took long enough! This thread was off topic since the OP! This "Morrus' D&D / 4th Edition / d20 News"--nothing about OD&D allowed.


----------



## Nikosandros

mhensley said:
			
		

> You guys are being too obvious with this now.



It was highly suspicious right from the start...


----------



## Storminator

hafrogman said:
			
		

> WOO HOO!  It's arrived, it's arrived!
> 
> *ahem*
> 
> I claim this thread in the name of the off-topic gestalt.  Welcome to the new home of the Hive.  You will now all be added to the collective.  Welcome to the Hivemind.
> 
> One of us!
> One of us!




Can the Hivemind get it's own forum, or a way to stick it on second page? There is enough drivel on the internet as it is!

PS


----------



## Lanefan

Not sure whether this is an April Fool's act or not, but the optics aren't very good regardless.  Someone posts that they're bailing on 4e and going back to 0e (a perfectly reasonable decision to make if the situation warrants) and gets flayed sideways for it...that alone is bad enough; ENWorld already seems to have gained something of a 4e-or-the-highway reputation, deserved or not, and this plays right into it (hence my nagging suspicions of prankishness).  But the OP is made by a moderator, and while I don't know the personalities behind the scenes, this sets the others mods and admins off such that the thread gets closed 3 times, moved at least 4 times, and strewn with words in Bad Colours, all over top of a reasonable discussion of the relative simplicity between editions.

So, what gives?

For my own part, I just started a new 1e-based campaign a week or two back, and a mid-week e-mail from one of the players really summed it up for me: "...it's good to see the game going back to its chaotic and non-serious roots!"  This from someone who's been playing for 28 years and has never even tried 3e, and who had a character die in the new game's very first session!

Rel's opening post here - whether serious or not - has it right.

Lanefan


----------



## Blackrat

Morrus said:
			
		

> I may be a little drunk and angry right now, but I know what I'm doing.  This has been coming for a long time, and you know it.



You know. The offer's down to 60% now. If you want still to come out winning you should write the name down soon .


----------



## Thaumaturge

Morrus said:
			
		

> I may be a little drunk and angry right now, but I know what I'm doing.  This has been coming for a long time, and you know it.




Can you at least hand the site over to someone in the US?  I'm tired of having a Brit run the site.


Thaumaturge.


----------



## Goobermunch

Morrus said:
			
		

> He didn't quit.  He was politely asked to leave.
> 
> And, frankly, I've had just about enough of this.  I'm tempted to just sign on the dotted line at which point it won't be my problem any more.




But the real question, Russ, is how is there any money in gold farming for 4e?

--G


----------



## FickleGM

This thread is full of fun.

/me hugs the thread and loves the thread and calls the thread George


----------



## mhensley

Morrus said:
			
		

> I may be a little drunk and angry right now, but I know what I'm doing.  This has been coming for a long time, and you know it.




The suspense is terrible... I hope it'll last.


----------



## GnomeWorks

...

I hate April.


----------



## hafrogman

Blackrat said:
			
		

> Convert everyone to Hivers!
> 
> 
> Well what are you waiting for, get to it.



Right, right.  I'm on it.

...

Wait. . . how do I do that again?  Oh damn, first day on the job and I'm gonna get fired.  I should have written it down.  Oh, wait. . . I did.  Index card, index card. . .

Aha!  Step One:  Speech.

Resistance is futile.  We are the dyslexic borg.  Prepare to have your ass laminated.

...

No, dangit.  Wrong speech.

Er. . . err. . . different plan!

Step One:  Steal Underpants.
Step Two: ???
Step Three: Profit.

Okay, so if everyone could just look the other way, while I. . . .*YANK*. . .

Leopard print?  Really?


----------



## Mistwell

Nevermind, continue on


----------



## Matthan

Almost makes you wonder if ENworld 2.0 is ready to go live and with April Fool's, they decided to make the most of it.  That's my new theory.

As for my gaming, I've never played OD&D and don't own the books, so I'm looking forward to 4E.  Besides, I live near Atlanta, GA near Stone Mountain actually.  Who down here would actually play OD&D?


----------



## Zaruthustran

Re: the sale of ENWorld, I suspect we'll all login tomorrow to see the site re-skinned as: "Dorito's Cool Ranch 4th Cheesition News"


----------



## Piratecat

Morrus said:
			
		

> I may be a little drunk and angry right now, but I know what I'm doing.  This has been coming for a long time, and you know it.



If that's your decision, I pretty well should just resign right now. I have absolutely no interest in that, and you friggin' well know it. I've already lost one friend today. I'd rather not lose more.


----------



## Remathilis

This is kinda like a civil war...

Marvel's _Civil War?_

The Galactic Civil War?

does that mean we can move it to the Media Lounge now?


----------



## Grazzt

mhensley said:
			
		

> The suspense is terrible... I hope it'll last.




Thank you Mr. Wonka


----------



## Lanefan

And even while I'm typing my last post, the thread gets moved twice more and becomes more fully exposed as Not Entirely Serious...

Our spiked chains are being yanked, people. 

Lanefan


----------



## Morrus

Piratecat said:
			
		

> If that's your decision, I pretty well should just resign right now. I have absolutely no interest in that, and you friggin' well know it.




Yeah, well you know how much I value your opinion given the way you behaved when you visited here.  Just another example of what's wrong around here.


----------



## Jdvn1

... Says the bugbear to the frog in a top hat! 

The Hive is _high quality_ drivel, anyways. We're mostly contained in one thread in the Off-Topic subforum anyways. Is it too tough to pass over a single thread?


----------



## hafrogman

Lanefan said:
			
		

> Not sure whether this is an April Fool's act or not, but the optics aren't very good regardless.



I disagree.  See this post for one poster's insight.  It's a central point of satire to highlight problems by taking them to illogical extremes.  You see it as a vindication of certain actions, but I believe it is supposed to be a condemnation there of.  

Mods: Isn't it silly when we do "this"?  
Posters: Yes.
Mods: It's silly when you do it to.  Stop.


----------



## Piratecat

Morrus said:
			
		

> Yeah, well you know how much I value your opinion given the way you behaved when you visited here.  Just another example of what's wrong around here.



Oh, I'm sorry? Did five apologies not suffice?

But fine. You want to sell out? Well  you, go ahead and do it. But I don't need to be a part of it. You're on your own.


----------



## Michael Morris

What in the blazes is going on here?? (Goes back and re-reads the thread in disbelief)


----------



## Morrus

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Oh, I'm sorry? Did five apologies not suffice?




Apologies dripping with sarcasm are worthless.


----------



## Jdvn1

Zaruthustran said:
			
		

> Re: the sale of ENWorld, I suspect we'll all login tomorrow to see the site re-skinned as: "Dorito's Cool Ranch 4th Cheesition News"



 If that's true, I owe you a beer.

In fact, all the admins need to just calm down and share a beer together to solve their differences. Drown your differences in beer.

I dont' think that came out right.


----------



## FickleGM

This in' thread in' rocks!   yeah!

   !


----------



## fett527

Michael Morris said:
			
		

> What in the blazes is going on here?? (Goes back and re-reads the thread in disbelief)



What?  You gonna "save" ENW from the mods now too?  Malice isn't a database Spoony.


----------



## hafrogman

FickleGM said:
			
		

> This in' thread in' rocks!   yeah!
> 
> !



Don't   swear in here, !  What would your  grandma think?!?


----------



## Thaumaturge

hafrogman said:
			
		

> Don't   swear in here, !  What would your  grandma think?!?




_HIS_ grandma?        sailor that one. 

Thaumaturge.


----------



## Dausuul

FickleGM said:
			
		

> This in' thread in' rocks!   yeah!
> 
> !




Okay, now I'm wondering--did you actually type in swear words that got filtered, or did you just click on the  smiley a whole lot?


----------



## FickleGM

hafrogman said:
			
		

> Don't   swear in here, !  What would your  grandma think?!?



 That I'm smiley.


----------



## Thaumaturge

hafrogman said:
			
		

> Don't   swear in here, !  What would your  grandma think?!?




 double post.

Thaumaturge.


----------



## Morrus

Actually, maybe it's important that a lot of people see what's happening.  I think I'll put this back in General.


----------



## Imperialus

Morrus said:
			
		

> He didn't quit.  He was politely asked to leave.
> 
> And, frankly, I've had just about enough of this.  I'm tempted to just sign on the dotted line at which point it won't be my problem any more.




Giving that site back to Eric?  Just as well, he ran a tighter ship.  You can't even seem to control your own mods.


----------



## Jdvn1

fett527 said:
			
		

> What?  You gonna "save" ENW from the mods now too?  Malice isn't a database Spoony.



 And what kind of Admin makes FF3 references in a D&D forum?! Bards aren't spoony, they're underpowered!

-Jdvn the "Not a Rogue, I'm a Treasure Hunter"


----------



## fett527

FickleGM said:
			
		

> This in' thread in' rocks!   yeah!
> 
> !



Get a grip le.


----------



## hafrogman

Morrus said:
			
		

> Actually, maybe it's important that a lot of people see what's happening.  I think I'll put this back in General.



*sob*


----------



## Michael Morris

It's a Final Fantasy IV reference, not Final Fantasy III. You're full of fail.

Now would someone please explain to me what's going on here?  I'm not a mushroom you know.


----------



## Imperialus

Michael Morris said:
			
		

> Now would someone please explain to me what's going on here?  I'm not a mushroom you know.




Rel moved his bookmark, teh interweb is dying.


----------



## GnomeWorks

Michael Morris said:
			
		

> It's a Final Fantasy IV reference, not Final Fantasy III. You're full of fail.




You're full of fail. You didn't even notice that the quote he cited was from VI, not III.

Stupid American enumeration.


----------



## fett527

Michael Morris said:
			
		

> It's a Final Fantasy IV reference, not Final Fantasy III. You're full of fail.
> 
> Now would someone please explain to me what's going on here?  I'm not a mushroom you know.



And here I thought you knew all that happened behind the scenes.  I am so disappointed.  

Next you'll say something like "I hate Magic: The Gathering" and my world will crumble.


----------



## Jdvn1

Michael Morris said:
			
		

> It's a Final Fantasy IV reference, not Final Fantasy III. You're full of fail.
> 
> Now would someone please explain to me what's going on here?  I'm not a mushroom you know.



 It's Final Fantasy II if you're a red-blooded American! We took the Japanese Final Fantasy  IV and improved it. You think "Edward" is a Japanese name?


----------



## hafrogman

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> -Jdvn the "Not a Rogue, I'm a Treasure Hunter"



Heh, "treasure hunter" he calls himself.  You, sir, are a thief.  Plain and simple.  Those uniforms you stole from the innocent guards?  Do you think the government is made of money?  Do you think cotton grows on trees?  No!

Those guards had to purchase new uniforms to replace those you stole.  Out of their own limited funds.  Hardworking family men, men who want nothing more than to provide for their wives and children, and you just took from them.  You may as well have walked up to their children and stolen the very food from their plates.

You are a thief, and I urge whatever remaining mods we have to punish you for your thieving ways.

- Hafrogman
- Evil Henchman's Local 666


----------



## Wisdom Penalty

Michael Morris said:
			
		

> It's a Final Fantasy IV reference, not Final Fantasy III. You're full of fail.
> 
> Now would someone please explain to me what's going on here?  I'm not a mushroom you know.




*Review

Rel posted he was quitting 3E and going back to oD&D for the less restrictive ruleset and the benefits he believe can be gained by doing such.  He posted this in the 4E forum. Morrus switched it out and said it belonged in General. Various posters threw in their $.02, the obligatory haters chipped in a couple pebbles, and then mods began to gang tackle one another in the best example of a flamewar since Hong joined the community. Now we have the rabble rousers in the background yelling for more fireworks, the mods moving the thread more times than a female dwarf has facial hair, and so on. It's cats and dogs...

...and seemingly all because one guy doesn't like 3E.

W.P., FTW
*


----------



## GoodKingJayIII

Epic Moderator Maneuver


----------



## Jdvn1

hafrogman said:
			
		

> *sob*



 Power is so fleeting...


----------



## GnomeWorks

fett527 said:
			
		

> Next you'll say something like "I hate Magic: The Gathering" and my world will crumble.




He uses Guay art for an avatar to show the world why she shouldn't be an artist for M:tG.



			
				Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> It's Final Fantasy II if you're a red-blooded American! We took the Japanese Final Fantasy IV and improved it. You think "Edward" is a Japanese name?




Nope, that's because it was Gilbert in the original! And how did we make it better, by taking away Rosa's ability to pray, Tellah's ability to cast randomly-selected spells, and Cecil's dark wave? Americans fail!


----------



## Michael Morris

fett527 said:
			
		

> And here I thought you knew all that happened behind the scenes.  I am so disappointed.
> 
> Next you'll say something like "I hate Magic: The Gathering" and my world will crumble.



 Hate to break it to you, but I haven't played that   game in years.


----------



## hafrogman

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> It's Final Fantasy II if you're a red-blooded American! We took the Japanese Final Fantasy  IV and improved it. You think "Edward" is a Japanese name?



Pfft.  Final Fantasy II is NOT Final Fantasy IV.  Those foreigners gave us Final Fantasy IV EASY TYPE.  A game for little children.  Is that the kind of statement we want the world to hear about America?  I say no!  Demand true translations, demand no censorship, demand real gameplay!


----------



## I'm A Banana

> Rel posted he was quitting 3E and going back to oD&D for the less restrictive ruleset and the benefits he believe can be gained by doing such. He posted this in the 4E forum. Morrus switched it out and said it belonged in General. Various posters threw in their $.02, the obligatory haters chipped in a couple pebbles, and then mods began to gang tackle one another in the best example of a flamewar since Hong joined the community. Now we have the rabble rousers in the background yelling for more fireworks, the mods moving the thread more times than a female dwarf has facial hair, and so on. It's cats and dogs...
> 
> ...and seemingly all because one guy doesn't like 3E.




It's because he doesn't like *4e*, isn't it?

There's no lesson to be learned if Morrus is doing what I think he's doing. There will be no joy in Mudville. Even jokes can be taken too far.


----------



## Michael Morris

Wisdom Penalty said:
			
		

> *Review
> 
> Rel posted he was quitting 3E and going back to oD&D for the less restrictive ruleset and the benefits he believe can be gained by doing such.  He posted this in the 4E forum. Morrus switched it out and said it belonged in General. Various posters threw in their $.02, the obligatory haters chipped in a couple pebbles, and then mods began to gang tackle one another in the best example of a flamewar since Hong joined the community. Now we have the rabble rousers in the background yelling for more fireworks, the mods moving the thread more times than a female dwarf has facial hair, and so on. It's cats and dogs...
> 
> ...and seemingly all because one guy doesn't like 3E.
> 
> W.P., FTW
> *



 Ok, it all makes sense. 3e sucks - who could love it. OD&D sucks more. Long live 4e.


----------



## Remathilis

Wisdom Penalty said:
			
		

> *Review
> 
> Rel posted he was quitting 3E and going back to oD&D for the less restrictive ruleset and the benefits he believe can be gained by doing such.  He posted this in the 4E forum. Morrus switched it out and said it belonged in General. Various posters threw in their $.02, the obligatory haters chipped in a couple pebbles, and then mods began to gang tackle one another in the best example of a flamewar since Hong joined the community. Now we have the rabble rousers in the background yelling for more fireworks, the mods moving the thread more times than a female dwarf has facial hair, and so on. It's cats and dogs...
> 
> ...and seemingly all because one guy doesn't like 3E.
> 
> W.P., FTW
> *




Or so you think...

Dum, Dum, DUUUMMMMMMMM!


----------



## fett527

Michael Morris said:
			
		

> Hate to break it to you, but I haven't played that   game in years.





Not funny.


----------



## diaglo

the offer is valid. it is just the terms that need some work.


----------



## Jdvn1

hafrogman said:
			
		

> Heh, "treasure hunter" he calls himself.  You, sir, are a thief.  Plain and simple.  Those uniforms you stole from the innocent guards?  Do you think the government is made of money?  Do you think cotton grows on trees?  No!
> 
> Those guards had to purchase new uniforms to replace those you stole.  Out of their own limited funds.  Hardworking family men, men who want nothing more than to provide for their wives and children, and you just took from them.  You may as well have walked up to their children and stolen the very food from their plates.
> 
> You are a thief, and I urge whatever remaining mods we have to punish you for your thieving ways.
> 
> - Hafrogman
> - Evil Henchman's Local 666



 Hey, I needed those uniforms to save the world! Those guards can forgo a single meal to prevent total destruction, can't they?!


----------



## Michael Morris

fett527 said:
			
		

> Not funny.



 Few things are my short friend, few things are.


----------



## fett527

diaglo said:
			
		

> the offer is valid. it is just the terms that need some work.



So how did you spike Rel's kool-aid?


----------



## Remathilis

diaglo said:
			
		

> the offer is valid. it is just the terms that need some work.




*En World - Diaglo's D&D/OD&D (1974)/Chainmail News* site?


----------



## Jdvn1

hafrogman said:
			
		

> Pfft.  Final Fantasy II is NOT Final Fantasy IV.  Those foreigners gave us Final Fantasy IV EASY TYPE.  A game for little children.  Is that the kind of statement we want the world to hear about America?  I say no!  Demand true translations, demand no censorship, demand real gameplay!



 I know a guy who couldn't beat FF2. I still don't quite understand why.

Still, we didn't just get easy type, we got _improved_. Aren't you glad you didn't have to pronounce Japanese names in that game?


----------



## hafrogman

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> Hey, I needed those uniforms to save the world! Those guards can forgo a single meal to prevent total destruction, can't they?!



Yeah . . . because you and your "rebels" did such a good job there, didn't they.  Tell that to the millions that lost their lives in the shattering of the old world, all because you interfered.


----------



## fett527

Michael Morris said:
			
		

> Few things are my short friend, few things are.




No personal attacks, Fett.


----------



## Remathilis

hafrogman said:
			
		

> Pfft.  Final Fantasy II is NOT Final Fantasy IV.  Those foreigners gave us Final Fantasy IV EASY TYPE.  A game for little children.  Is that the kind of statement we want the world to hear about America?  I say no!  Demand true translations, demand no censorship, demand real gameplay!




Actually, that's not entirely true...


----------



## Jdvn1

GnomeWorks said:
			
		

> Nope, that's because it was Gilbert in the original! And how did we make it better, by taking away Rosa's ability to pray, Tellah's ability to cast randomly-selected spells, and Cecil's dark wave? Americans fail!



FF2 improved ability to read!


----------



## Wisdom Penalty

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> It's because he doesn't like *4e*, isn't it?




Nope. (And thanks for giving me my opening.)

Rel played (past tense) 3E/3.5E.  He got tired of the complexity. He was done.

Rel decided to move to oD&D.

Those are the facts, Jack.  The man was sick, the man was tired, the man returned to the birthplace of it all. More power to the man.

The 4E component comes in for two reasons:

1) Rel posted in the 4E forum.

2) 4E was not the game Rel opted to move to upon decided he was tired of 3E.


This case is closed unless further evidence is provided to the contrary.

Good day, sir.

W.P.


Dum, dum, DUUMMMMMM!!!!


----------



## GnomeWorks

hafrogman said:
			
		

> Yeah . . . because you and your "rebels" did such a good job there, didn't they.  Tell that to the millions that lost their lives in the shattering of the old world, all because you interfered.




Someone was trying to tell me the other day that FF XI should've been set in the world of ruin, because it would've been a lot more interesting.

To relate this to 4e, though, the world of ruin would possibly make for an interesting PoL setting.


----------



## Charwoman Gene

Wisdom Penalty said:
			
		

> a female dwarf has facial hair, and so on.




No, they don't.


----------



## hafrogman

Remathilis said:
			
		

> Actually, that's not entirely true...



Oh.  I stand corrected.

However, I will not be retracting my irrational xenophobia and jingoism.

Thank you.


----------



## Jdvn1

hafrogman said:
			
		

> Yeah . . . because you and your "rebels" did such a good job there, didn't they.  Tell that to the millions that lost their lives in the shattering of the old world, all because you interfered.



 We had to do something to stop genocide!


----------



## GnomeWorks

Remathilis said:
			
		

> Actually, that's not entirely true...




Bah. Play American II, then Japanese IV. There are differences (including but not limited to the things I listed above), and the original is more difficult.


----------



## Dinkeldog

Remathilis said:
			
		

> *En World - Diaglo's D&D/OD&D (1974)/Chainmail News* site?




What news would there be?  Unless the delay in the GSL was so that it would be retroactive to cover previous editions.  Could be pretty interesting to see 3rd party supplements for OD&D.  Especially if it meant we could get a good setting.


----------



## Wisdom Penalty

Charwoman Gene said:
			
		

> No, they don't.




I was tempted to say: "Yes, they do."

But, alas, I must save such retorts to do battle with the typical riffraff that enjoy raining on parades.  Your posts, on the contrary, are witty and to the point.

Plus, I generally agree with you, thus your opinions must be correct.

Let us agree to disagree, hm?

W.P.


----------



## Eridanis

Too much drama in this thread. I think it belongs in Plots & Places.

And lay off the ing cursing, please.


----------



## Michael Morris

GnomeWorks said:
			
		

> Bah. Play American II, then Japanese IV. There are differences (including but not limited to the things I listed above), and the original is more difficult.



 True. The US version was based on the Japanese "easy" version. If you want the original you can get it on the Playstation as part of _Final Fantasy Anthologies_ which also has _Chrono Trigger_ on it.


----------



## Wulf Ratbane

This thread's as good as any Story Hour (except maybe mine).


----------



## der_kluge

I wonder what would happen if I reported all the mods' posts in this thread?

Would ENWorld collapse into a singularity?


----------



## GnomeWorks

Michael Morris said:
			
		

> True. The US version was based on the Japanese "easy" version. If you want the original you can get it on the Playstation as part of _Final Fantasy Anthologies_ which also has _Chrono Trigger_ on it.




Ah, CT... now _there_ is a good game.


----------



## hafrogman

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> We had to do something to stop genocide!



Meh.  See previous comments regarding xenophobia and jingoism.  They had it coming.


----------



## Shade

Paging Mr. Godwin...


----------



## Remathilis

der_kluge said:
			
		

> I wonder what would happen if I reported all the mods' posts in this thread?
> 
> Would ENWorld collapse into a singularity?




Try it, I double dog dare ya!

The inmates are taking over the asylum!


----------



## hafrogman

Shade said:
			
		

> Paging Mr. Godwin...



Oh there you go, trying to drag "him" into it.

You know who else dragged people to places?


----------



## fett527

der_kluge said:
			
		

> I wonder what would happen if I reported all the mods' posts in this thread?
> 
> Would ENWorld collapse into a singularity?



It'd be like a whack-a-mod.


----------



## hafrogman

Charwoman Gene said:
			
		

> No, they don't.





			
				Wisdom Penalty said:
			
		

> Yes, they do.



That was never five minutes just now. . .


----------



## Praeden

One moment I was on the Plots, Places & Rogues! sub-forum.  Suddenly, from nowhere, a strange mist enveloped me. When it cleared, I found myself on this strange demi-thread, with no way to return.  Already I have encountered many strange beings, all taken from their home forums, now trapped as I am.

Am I to remain here all my life?  Or do perhaps the dark and mysterious Moderators hold the key to my escape?  Clearly they have little love for one another - perhaps an alliance might be forged...


----------



## Imperialus

fett527 said:
			
		

> It'd be like a whack-a-mod.




Oh!  That would make a great fund raising event for Diaglo's revamped ENworld next Gencon


----------



## Shade

Defiler said:
			
		

> One moment I was on the Plots, Places & Rogues! sub-forum.  Suddenly, from nowhere, a strange mist enveloped me. When it cleared, I found myself on this strange demi-thread, with no way to return.  Already I have encountered many strange beings, all taken from their home forums, now trapped as I am.  Am I to remain here all my life?  Or do perhaps the dark and mysterious Moderators hold the key to my escape?  Clearly they have little love for one another - perhaps an alliance might be forged...




You can check out any time you'd like, but you can never leave.


----------



## Dinkeldog

Plots, Places and Rogues?  As much as I'd like to have this thread die, really?  The place is like a graveyard.


----------



## GnomeWorks

Shade said:
			
		

> You can check out any time you'd like, but you can never leave.




My steely knife is at the ready.


----------



## noffham

They set me up with this gorgeous lair!

Do you have a lair?

I have a lair!


----------



## Cthulhu's Librarian

I knew there was a reason I stopped posting here. You guys are all dumb-s.


----------



## fett527

i'm sure there are great plot arguments for 4e vs OD&D.


----------



## hafrogman

noffham said:
			
		

> I have a lair!



Liar.


----------



## Imperialus

Cthulhu's Librarian said:
			
		

> I knew there was a reason I stopped posting here. You guys are all dumb-s.




I am so reporting you for that you


----------



## hafrogman

GnomeWorks said:
			
		

> My steely knife is at the ready.



That won't do you any good.  The beast has DR 25/bludgeoning.  You'll never be able to kill it that way.


----------



## FickleGM

Nothing to see here...lag caused the post to be obsolete.


----------



## Arnwyn

I can't believe I slogged through all this.


FLAT. OUT. AWESOME. (I think this is the 4th forum... though I might have missed one or two.)


----------



## GnomeWorks

hafrogman said:
			
		

> That won't do you any good.  The beast has DR 25/bludgeoning.  You'll never be able to kill it that way.




Maybe if we all stab it together, that'll overcome the DR?


----------



## fett527

Arnwyn said:
			
		

> I can't believe I slogged through all this.



That's what she said.


----------



## Dinkeldog

Last warning--any more cursing will earn you a vacation from the thread.


----------



## Voadam

Dinkeldog said:
			
		

> Plots, Places and Rogues?  As much as I'd like to have this thread die, really?  The place is like a graveyard.





Are you kidding? Since they added plots to the Rogue Gallery forum the only way I can keep track of my pbp characters is to link them in my sig. Graveyard, Feh.


----------



## Cthulhu's Librarian

Imperialus said:
			
		

> I am so reporting you for that you




Go ahead. If this is what ENW is offering up for discussion anymore, I could care less if those ers ban me. If they can pull their heads out of their es long enough to hit the right buttons to do it. The mods here are jokes. I'm going back to a real message board.


----------



## Xath

FickleGM, I banned you from this thread for your inappropriate earlier comment.  Next post gets you a vacation from the boards.


----------



## Voadam

GnomeWorks said:
			
		

> Maybe if we all stab it together, that'll overcome the DR?




Does 4e even have DR any more? No wait, Rel rejected 4e for OD&D as his new game of choice. 

Does OD&D even have a type of DR?


----------



## Imperialus

Cthulhu's Librarian said:
			
		

> Go ahead. If this is what ENW is offering up for discussion anymore, I could care less if those ers ban me. If they can pull their heads out of their es long enough to hit the right buttons to do it. The mods here are jokes. I'm going back to a real message board.




Yeah, run back to gleemax.


----------



## hafrogman

Cthulhu's Librarian said:
			
		

> I'm going back to a real message board.



Battle.net?

Nothing says intelligent, well reasoned conversation like Battle net.


----------



## Cthulhu's Librarian

Imperialus said:
			
		

> Yeah, run back to gleemax.




I don't think so.

Who do you think you are anyway, sitting there with less than 1000 posts. Come back when you have a real post count.


----------



## fett527

Xath said:
			
		

> FickleGM, I banned you from this thread for your inappropriate earlier comment.  Next post gets you a vacation from the boards.



You got something against short people?  You don't even have an e-peener to wave.

:gnash:


----------



## Jdvn1

Dinkeldog said:
			
		

> Last warning--any more cursing will earn you a vacation from the thread.



 I think this thread is a sign we all need a vacation!


----------



## hafrogman

Voadam said:
			
		

> Does 4e even have DR any more? No wait, Rel rejected 4e for OD&D as his new game of choice.
> 
> Does OD&D even have a type of DR?



I imagine it had, "this monster can only be hurt by magical weapons", but I could be wrong.

Red boxer. . . 

But then I guess steely knives just aren't magical enough then?  The beast has an enchanted hide?  Or perhaps he uses Belle as a human shield.  No matter how much Gaston and the villagers try, they just can't kill the Beast.


----------



## fett527

Imperialus said:
			
		

> Yeah, run back to gleemax.



Now that's just downright nasty.


----------



## hafrogman

Dinkeldog said:
			
		

> Last warning--any more cursing will earn you a vacation from the thread.



Sometimes. . .

I feel, like I need a vacation.





To the city of cavemen, the City of Bedrock. . . I'd be a Flintstone, now I'll tell you why.


----------



## FickleGM

Xath said:
			
		

> FickleGM, I banned you from this thread for your inappropriate earlier comment.  Next post gets you a vacation from the boards.



 If I flirt with you inappropriately, would my transgressions be forgiven? :naughty:


----------



## GnomeWorks

Voadam said:
			
		

> Does 4e even have DR any more? No wait, Rel rejected 4e for OD&D as his new game of choice.
> 
> Does OD&D even have a type of DR?




I hear that, in OD&D, if you throw a planet at Demogorgon, it doesn't even matter unless it's a +3 planet of doom.

Or something.


----------



## Xath

Fett, Enjoy your vacation from the boards.


----------



## noffham

hafrogman said:
			
		

> Liar.




No, in OD&D it was % in liar.

It was the Arduin Grimoire that actually laid out the % chance OF lying.

What were we talking about again??


----------



## Imperialus

Xath said:
			
		

> Fett, Enjoy your vacation from the boards.




Completely uncalled for Xath.  Fett didn't do anything other than stand up to you.


----------



## hafrogman

noffham said:
			
		

> What were we talking about again??



I'm not sure myself, anymore.  Possibly innappropriate flirtation.  What's the % for a Doxy again?


----------



## el-remmen

Morrus said:
			
		

> Apologies dripping with sarcasm are worthless.




In the words of one our most esteemed posters of all time, "Piratecat is a lying bitch."

So really, you shouldn't be surprised.


----------



## Xath

Holy Crap people, I am trying to maintain some semblence of dignity amidst this crap-storm, but I'm at my last nerve!  I am a moderator, and I am doing my best to moderate this thread appropriately.  Regardless as to whether you think this is a joke, please try to respect the board rules.  If you take issue with my decisions, email or PM me.  

Do not call me out in the thread.  I will be leniant to those of you who, up to this point, have thought this was some sort of sick joke.  My mercy ends now.  Anyone else who challenges mod decisions in public will get a vacation.


----------



## FickleGM

Xath said:
			
		

> Holy Crap people, I am trying to maintain some semblence of dignity amidst this crap-storm, but I'm at my last nerve!  I am a moderator, and I am doing my best to moderate this thread appropriately.  Regardless as to whether you think this is a joke, please try to respect the board rules.  If you take issue with my decisions, email or PM me.
> 
> Do not call me out in the thread.  I will be leniant to those of you who, up to this point, have thought this was some sort of sick joke.  My mercy ends now.  Anyone else who challenges mod decisions in public will get a vacation.



 Have I told you lately, that I love you?


----------



## hafrogman

FickleGM said:
			
		

> Have I told you lately, that I love you?



There's no one else above her?



_edit: Because I don't know the lyrics apparently._


----------



## el-remmen

Umbran said:
			
		

> Yes, and that's why I reopened the thread.  However, I stipulated that folks needed to post _with respect_, and you're clearly not showing that.
> 
> I'm going to have to ask you to not post in the thread again.




WAIT A GODDANG MINUTE HERE!  I _just_ saw this.

Umbran is kicking _ME _ out of a thread.  _UMBRAN_?

Dude, I been a mod since. . . well, since long before you. . .  You don't have that authority, and I find the idea that you would even THINK you did laughable. LAUGHABLE!

How about I kick _you_ out of the thread?


----------



## Xath

Fickle, Enjoy your ban.


----------



## el-remmen

Xath said:
			
		

> Holy Crap people, I am trying to maintain some semblence of dignity amidst this crap-storm, but I'm at my last nerve!  I am a moderator, and I am doing my best to moderate this thread appropriately.  Regardless as to whether you think this is a joke, please try to respect the board rules.  If you take issue with my decisions, email or PM me.
> 
> Do not call me out in the thread.  I will be leniant to those of you who, up to this point, have thought this was some sort of sick joke.  My mercy ends now.  Anyone else who challenges mod decisions in public will get a vacation.




Xath,

You're right.  As a moderator that has been around longer than just about anyone, I think the time has come for me just declare this thread closed.

And so it is.


----------



## Piratecat

el-remmen said:
			
		

> Xath,
> 
> You're right.  As a moderator that has been around longer than just about anyone, I think the time has come for me just declare this thread closed.
> 
> And so it is.



Nemmerle, perhaps you forget. You quit being a real moderator a year ago, because you decided you didn't want to do the work. That's what "Emeritus" _means._ Morrus presumably edited your account access accordingly.

You actually didn't notice until now?

I'm not quite sure how you get off using red text. You don't have that right any more than I do.


----------



## Imperialus

qoth the server 404


----------



## Piratecat

Imperialus said:
			
		

> Now I get it, you killed Pkitty and stole his e-peener.  Have to show it off now.



You are _not_ helping. I may not be party to Morrus's dumb-ass actions regarding a place I love, but you should treat the mods with respect. They're going to have a hell of a job.


----------



## Xath

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Nemmerle, perhaps you forget. You quit being a real moderator a year ago, because you decided you didn't want to do the work. That's what "Emeritus" _means._ Morrus presumably edited your account access accordingly.
> 
> You actually didn't notice until now?
> 
> I'm not quite sure how you get off using red text. You don't have that right any more than I do.




Nonetheless, I appreciate the sentiment, and I will once again close this thread.


----------



## Charwoman Gene

el-remmen said:
			
		

> And so it is.




I love board hax.


----------



## Michael Morris

Hmm..  Has everyone around here gone nuts?  Just in case I think it would be prudent of me to change the passwords to the root account and the database.  Boards may go down momentarily while I process these changes.


----------



## el-remmen

PC,

I thought you took your ball and went home. . . ?

I guess your rep of lying bitchiness is well-deserved.

I wash my hands of this.  I am going back to the story hour forum where I started off and concentrate on the most important aspect of D&D no matter who you are or how you play (unless you are some kind of mouth-breather, in which case I don't care what you think), and that is making stories.


----------



## Charwoman Gene

This is like performance art


----------



## Michael Morris

Guys, if you keep closing and opening the thread you might break something.


----------



## Piratecat

el-remmen said:
			
		

> PC,
> 
> I thought you took your ball and went home. . . ?



No. I resigned, because Morrus has told me his future plans for the site, and I don't approve; he doesn't get to be a jerk just because he's been drinking and is angry at Rel. There are principles at stake here.


----------



## el-remmen

Michael Morris said:
			
		

> Guys, if you keep closing and opening the thread you might break something.




Lucky those of us with TRUE MOD POWERS (thank you very much) can still post when it is closed, and it is STAYING CLOSED.

Okay, now I am _really_ leaving. . .  I just wanted to make sure I am not held responsible if something _does_ break.


----------



## Imperialus

el-remmen said:
			
		

> Lucky those of us with TRUE MOD POWERS (thank you very much) can still post when it is closed, and it is STAYING CLOSED.
> 
> Okay, now I am _really_ leaving. . .  I just wanted to make sure I am not held responsible if something _does_ break.




Yet it's open again.  Look if you mods want to dick around, do it in your own damn forum.  That's why I'm pissed at Xath.  I can appreciate you guys being pissed at each other but if you're going to drag each other around in front of the plebs expect some comments from the peanut gallery.


----------



## hafrogman

Testing, testing. . .

Open sesame?


----------



## Xath

Imp, Vacation


----------



## Thulcondar

Piratecat said:
			
		

> No. I resigned, because Morrus has told me his future plans for the site




Now THAT sounds interesting. Can you share?

I've gotta say, this does really sound like a gag thread at this point.


----------



## Tewligan

fett527 said:
			
		

> It'd be like a whack-a-mod.



Just FYI, if you see "Whack-A-Mod" spraypainted on the side of a windowless old van parked at a rest stop, do NOT climb into the van - it's not the game you think it is.

Rel destroyed my innocence that day.


----------



## Beckett

This thread is a beautiful piece of art.


----------



## hafrogman

Tewligan said:
			
		

> Just FYI, if you see "Whack-A-Mod" spraypainted on the side of a windowless old van parked at a rest stop, do NOT climb into the van - it's not the game you think it is.
> 
> Rel destroyed my innocence that day.



Ew.


----------



## I'm A Banana

> I've gotta say, this does really sound like a gag thread at this point.




I hope you're right...I wouldn't want to see Morrus do anything....drastic...

 

If it is true, we're all boned. Though I think Morrus is well within his rights, I'm with P-kitty on this one. There's principle, here.


----------



## Irda Ranger

Michael Morris said:
			
		

> Guys, if you keep closing and opening the thread you might break something.



This looks like tacit admission of poor db code to me. A real db admin would have put together a robust system by now that could handle even drunk and angry admins, no matter how faced they get.


----------



## Tewligan

Michael Morris said:
			
		

> Guys, if you keep closing and opening the thread you might break something.



That's what she said.


----------



## evileeyore

Xath said:
			
		

> Imp, Vacation



FULL OF WIN!



Wow... just wow.  I can't figure out if this real or memorex, but hot-god-damn this thread was full of amusing.


Uhhh...  what is the topic anymore?


----------



## diaglo

Beckett said:
			
		

> This thread is a beautiful piece of art.



that's b/c as you know firsthand from Gen Con it is all about OD&D(1974)

or at least it was in the first post.


----------



## hafrogman

evileeyore said:
			
		

> Uhhh...  what is the topic anymore?



Peace, tolerance and understanding.


----------



## hafrogman

diaglo said:
			
		

> that's b/c as you know firsthand from Gen Con it is all about OD&D(1974)
> 
> or at least it was in the first post.



Didn't you get banned?  Or did that die with the cat?  Or was it just for the other screenname?


----------



## I'm A Banana

> This looks like tacit admission of poor db code to me. A real db admin would have put together a robust system by now that could handle even drunk and angry admins, no matter how faced they get.




You haven't noticed how slow and buggy the forums are recently? Especially after the 4e announcement, when new posters from all over the globe have flooded the server? This thing's held together by bubble gum, duct tape, and the idealistic dreams of little children. Spoony's a hero for keeping it up this long.

...come to think of it, wasn't OD&D held together by bubble gum, duct tape, and dreams? 

Damn my circular thinking.


----------



## Sashi

We're playing a game of OD&D right now, and all of the warts are showing.

The classes are all either over or underpowered, all task resolution systems are inconsistent. The house rule file is expanding at an exponential rate as we try to do anything other than whack the opponent with a stick. There's almost no way for one fighter to differentiate himself from another in combat.

There's a huge difference between "simple" and "easy".

If you really want a "simple" game, just roll a d20 and say if it was good enough to pass whatever test was put in front of the party.


----------



## AntiStateQuixote

Xath said:
			
		

> Imp, Vacation



Improved Vacation?  Man, I want that feat!

*Improved Vacation [General]*
*Prerequisite*: a job with benefits
Your powers of vacationing are superior to those of normal people.
*Benefit*: When you take a vacation you experience double the amount of fun that a normal vacation would grant.
*Normal*: When on vacation you experience a level of fun directly related to the amount of time, cash and alcohol expended/consumed while on vacation.
*Special*: If you are an ENWorld moderator you can (apparently) impose this feat on any non-moderator ENWorld users.


----------



## Baumi

This 1.st April will be awesome


----------



## Dinkeldog

Was duct tape even patented when OD&D was around?


----------



## Thulcondar




----------



## Korgoth

I really like OD&D.  Even just with the 3 LBBs you can play endlessly.  It gives you "rules as tools" and bascially expects you to put together your own game.

Each supplement, like Greyhawk or FFC/Blackmoor (or Arduin, etc.) is really the house rules of whichever DM we are discussing (Gygax, Arneson, etc.).  Each DM essentially makes his own supplement when he decides how he will adjudicate things.

Everything is simple.  Monsters are simple: in statting a dungeon recently, all I put down were AC x, HD x, Move x".  That's all the statblock you need: 3 numbers.

Mike Mearls actually had an excellent observation about the rules-lightness: that it encourages players to treat encounters not in terms of game effects, but in terms of literary devices.

It isn't for everyone.  It does not even run "right out of the box".  But if you want to take a basic set of guidelines and make your own rules light fantasy game out of it (be it LOTR, Conan, Thundarr the Barbarian, Carter of Mars, etc.) it's a gem.

I don't want or need skills, feats, powers, maneuvers, etc.  I can rule all that on the fly, or use the very simple rules provided (want to grapple? roll your hit dice versus his hit dice, higher score wins, etc.).

So, Rel, if you're still listening, I hope you enjoy OD&D.  I know I will.  Come by Finarvyn's board some time and hang out with the gang.


----------



## Plane Sailing

el-remmen said:
			
		

> WAIT A GODDANG MINUTE HERE!  I _just_ saw this.
> 
> Umbran is kicking _ME _ out of a thread.  _UMBRAN_?
> 
> Dude, I been a mod since. . . well, since long before you. . .  You don't have that authority, and I find the idea that you would even THINK you did laughable. LAUGHABLE!
> 
> How about I kick _you_ out of the thread?




Let me put it this way Nemm.

Look at your title. It says moderator.

Look at my title. It says Admin. ADMIN.

So I outrank you and more importantly I've got access to the Admin control panel and you don't. 

Say goodbye to your moderator status. If you give us any more crap you'll be saying goodbye to your boring so-called storyhours too, so if you fancy giving us any trouble, make sure you have a backup.

For goodness sake.


----------



## DaveMage

Brent_Nall said:
			
		

> Improved Vacation?  Man, I want that feat!
> 
> *Improved Vacation [General]*
> *Prerequisite*: a job with benefits
> Your powers of vacationing are superior to those of normal people.
> *Benefit*: When you take a vacation you experience double the amount of fun that a normal vacation would grant.
> *Normal*: When on vacation you experience a level of fun directly related to the amount of time, cash and alcohol expended/consumed while on vacation.
> *Special*: If you are an ENWorld moderator you can (apparently) impose this feat on any non-moderator ENWorld users.




You left out a pre-requisite: Location = Las Vegas


----------



## CleverNickName

Wow...I go down to Neuberger Hall to get a book loan and a parking permit, and look at all that I miss while I was away.

FWIW, I still play Basic D&D.  Granted, the red-box rules are still a more recent edition than OD&D, but the heart and soul of the game is still very much intact if you ask me.  I also play 3.5E, and will continue to do so for at least a couple more years.  A new edition being released does not diminish the years of fun and enjoyment I have experienced under older rules systems.

About the other thing:

I love this site, regardless of what version of D&D I happen to be playing at the time.  When I'm not lurking around in the many different forums, I am posting ideas and asking questions and taking polls just so I can learn more about this wonderful hobby that we all share.  There is truly no other place like it, and you (all of you) know it.

If this was all an elaborate April Fools joke, consider me duped.


----------



## WhatGravitas

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> So I outrank you and more importantly I've got access to the Admin control panel and you don't.



But isn't Morris more Admin-y than you?

Cheers, LT.


----------



## Plane Sailing

Lord Tirian said:
			
		

> But isn't Morris more Admin-y than you?
> 
> Cheers, LT.




Actually no, but I don't anticipate that creating any problems. I was made an Admin for my technical skills rather than my good looks (but I don't want to drag this off topic)

Cheers


----------



## Michael Morris

One of these days people will stop mixing up Morr*i* (me) with Morr*u*s (Russ).

This thread has no business being in general by the way - and since everyone else is being catty and misbehaving I guess it falls to me - the worst behaved admin on staff - to move this to off topic where it belongs.  Grow up people - geez..


----------



## hafrogman

Lord Tirian said:
			
		

> But isn't Morris more Admin-y than you?
> 
> Cheers, LT.



No, Morris is just Tech Admin.  Morrus is the chief. . . except that he's selling off his interests to a corporate sponsor.  Mum's the word on that though, don't tell anyone.


----------



## Irda Ranger

And as It was Foretold, the Rain Washed the Mountaintops, and the Truth Was Spoken from the Mouth of an Osprey:


> The game is also so simple that nobody has any choices. ... I'm playing the wizard, and I literally go from being "HOLY **** this is overpowered" to "Wow I'm useless" in three spells, flat. (And no, it's not okay for ANY of this to happen...)



And the Enemies of the Fun Were Smited.




			
				Sashi said:
			
		

> every time someone wants to do something outside of the rules he resolves it a different way (because there's no consistent rule written for it) OR he comes up with a resolution system (which is a bad one, because he's not a good game designer), and then writes it in the word document of house rules (which expands every session. Currently we're at 100+ house rules,



Been there. It's ugly. It's also hard, and I'm lazy. For this reason I have hired a few guys up in Seattle to do this for me and to have the house rules document delivered to my door in a nice, neat package. They don't respond to my emails often, but I expect to receive "the big fix" some time in June or so.


----------



## Dinkeldog

CleverNickName said:
			
		

> Wow...I go down to Neuberger Hall to get a book loan and a parking permit, and look at all that I miss while I was away.
> 
> FWIW, I still play Basic D&D.  Granted, the red-box rules are still a more recent edition than OD&D, but the heart and soul of the game is still very much intact if you ask me.  I also play 3.5E, and will continue to do so for at least a couple more years.  A new edition being released does not diminish the years of fun and enjoyment I have experienced under older rules systems.




Red-box is far inferior to 1974.  Hardly the same game, really.  More like version 0.5--and we know how well the half-versions are.


----------



## der_kluge

Korgoth said:
			
		

> Everything is simple.  Monsters are simple: in statting a dungeon recently, all I put down were AC x, HD x, Move x".  That's all the statblock you need: 3 numbers.




But even that's not entirely true, is it? I mean, it's one that to put that as a stat block for an Orc, but quite a different thing for a troll - which regenerates (how much? How often) or a skeleton (takes half damage from slashing weapons) - so some monsters have *other* things that can complicate the stat block.

I can appreciate a simpler ruleset, but the player in me finds the lack of options and diversification woefully lacking from such a system. Such was my major complaint with C&C.


----------



## hafrogman

Michael Morris said:
			
		

> This thread has no business being in general by the way - and since everyone else is being catty and misbehaving I guess it falls to me - the worst behaved admin on staff - to move this to off topic where it belongs.  Grow up people - geez..



Wait.  *Looks around*  We're back?

We're back!

Ratty!  Let the invasion begin anew!


----------



## Irda Ranger

Michael Morris said:
			
		

> One of these days people will stop mixing up Morr*i**s* (me) with Morr*u*s (Russ).



TFTFY.

And _jeez_, if you can't bother to spell your own name right, why should we give a  which mod you are ...


----------



## WhatGravitas

Michael Morris said:
			
		

> One of these days people will stop mixing up Morr*i* (me) with Morr*u*s (Russ).



Hell, no! I meant you, with *i*, because as tech guy, you can kill ENWorld, and take Plane Sailing's stuff admin rights!

Cheers, LT.


----------



## Darkness

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> So I outrank you and more importantly I've got access to the Admin control panel and you don't.



About time we got rid of nemm. Come on, do it - you know you wanna. I'll even lend you a hand:

http://www.enworld.org/admincp/index.php?


----------



## I'm A Banana

Heh. Darkness, I am honored that you repeated my little thing back on page 8!


----------



## hafrogman

Michael Morris said:
			
		

> One of these days people will stop mixing up Morr*i* (me).



Are you free Tuesday?


----------



## Remathilis

This would be a good time for a h@kk0r to come and change all the admin's passwords...


----------



## hafrogman

Darkness said:
			
		

> About time we got rid of nemm.



*psst*  You might want to edit your title.  Being the hand and eye of a 'registered user' might not be the power trip it used to be.





Spoiler



Devious by the way, I might not have noticed if I hadn't quoted you.


----------



## CleverNickName

Dinkeldog said:
			
		

> Red-box is far inferior to 1974.  Hardly the same game, really.  More like version 0.5--and we know how well the half-versions are.



Uh, I guess.  (shrug)  It would seem that all I've ever played are half-versions.  I was BORN in 1974, so obviously I missed out on that...for the most part, anyway.  When I started gaming, I was too busy collecting the Basic, Expert, Companion, and Masters boxed sets to bother with the AD&D craze.  Then I went off to college, got married, moved out of state, went back to college, etc., such that by the time I got back into gaming the 3.5 Edition was hitting the shelves.

I guess you can't miss what you've never experienced, eh?


----------



## Kid Charlemagne

Rel said:
			
		

> Oh THAT is just ing great!
> 
> Ok  it.  I'm out of here.




Oh, boo-friggin-hoo.  This whole thread is just one long, sad sob story.

As such  I am moving to the Story Hour Forum.


----------



## Kid Charlemagne

Oh, and just because some Mods are off their meds doesn't mean Board rules aren't still in effect.  Some of us are still actually minding the shop and not off in our cups somewhere.  Jeezus!


----------



## Pbartender

_Keep that kind of language to yourself, buddy - PS_


----------



## hafrogman

you too, buddy - PS

THIS POST HAS BEEN CENSORED BY THE MAN.  THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT BE VLOGGED!


----------



## Remathilis

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> Oh, and just because some Mods are off their meds doesn't mean Board rules aren't still in effect.  Some of us are still actually minding the shop and not off in our cups somewhere.  Jeezus!




You want a cookie or something?


----------



## Slander

hafrogman said:
			
		

> No, Morris is just Tech Admin.  Morrus is the chief. . . except that he's selling off his interests to a corporate sponsor.  Mum's the word on that though, don't tell anyone.




I hear Stephen Colbert is shopping the rights to EN World so he'll have a better chance of getting his 4E books early.


----------



## JamesM

Pbartender said:
			
		

> _Keep that kind of language to yourself, buddy - PS_



edited  by Moderator - don't call out the Mods, boys...
-Kid Charlemagne


----------



## Plane Sailing

Piratecat said:
			
		

> No. I resigned, because Morrus has told me his future plans for the site, and I don't approve; he doesn't get to be a jerk just because he's been drinking and is angry at Rel. There are principles at stake here.




Could you re-think your decision? OK, I know you don't approve but helping with the transition would be nice. The furore on the announcement of 4e was bad enough with half the moderators away gaming with Gary Gygax, but this is going to be pretty tough.

Think about it. Please?


----------



## Crothian

Can we get back to the glory of OD&D already?


----------



## Beckett

Crothian said:
			
		

> Can we get back to the glory of OD&D already?




When elf technology and elf celebrities ruled supreme!


----------



## Wulf Ratbane

Thulcondar said:
			
		

> I've gotta say, this does really sound like a gag thread at this point.




Oh, it's gag-worthy all right.


----------



## Matthan

While I still hold to my theory.  I want to hear more about the glories of OD&D.  I understand there are a lot of charts.  Can you play without them or do you have to carry them around all the time?


----------



## Crothian

Matthan said:
			
		

> While I still hold to my theory.  I want to hear more about the glories of OD&D.  I understand there are a lot of charts.  Can you play without them or do you have to carry them around all the time?




Carrying around the books really isn't an issue.  I haven't weighed them but I'd imagine that all the books published for OD&D weigh less then the three core 3e books.  Heck, they might even be less then the PHB since they aren't even hard bound.  

There are charts.  But the charts are wondering monsters, treasure, basic equipment lists, and other things that are still in the game today just presented differently.  It's not like rolemaster.


----------



## Thulcondar

Matthan said:
			
		

> While I still hold to my theory.  I want to hear more about the glories of OD&D.  I understand there are a lot of charts.  Can you play without them or do you have to carry them around all the time?




Bear in mind that it's not too difficult to carry them around all the time. They all fit in a couple 8.5"x5.5" booklets. AD&D is a tad tougher since the books are physically larger, but the basic three still fit easily in the average backpack, with room for a couple cans of Jolt thrown into the bargain.

I've been running an AD&D 1E campaign myself for about a year now, with players who have a mix of experience with 3.x and nothing, and it's been a blast for all (I hope). My gripe with the newer versions is the difficulty in "winging it". Perhaps 4E will change that, perhaps not. I'll certainly buy the core books just to get a feel for it. But when they market what is essentially a completely new game as a "version" of an old game, I fail to see why I should invest the time and effort into learning it. I've been happy with AD&D for 20 years. There's some nostalgia involved, but it's also the fact that I know the system so well. 

"Newer" doesn't necessarily mean "better" any more than "older" does. In the case of 3.x (and, from what I can see, 4.0) it just means "different". Why change?


----------



## Wulf Ratbane

I recently got out my old 1e books (to study the graphic design, actually, such as it was...)

Not only is there a 1e feel, there's a very specific 1e _smell_. My 1e books smell like no others I own. 

Opened a floodgate of memories and emotions.

The DMG still falls open at my touch to all the most heavily trafficked pages. I can literally hold it by the spine, think of a section, and just let it fall open to that page.


----------



## Kid Charlemagne

Mine smell like the duct tape I used to hold the bindings together!  I am however chagrined to learn that I don't remember the page of the combat charts correctly off the top of my head anymore.  I thought pg101, it was actually 74.


----------



## Matthan

My breadth of roleplaying game experience is very limited, but I remember having the old TSR Marvel Super-heroes game and, if memory serves, they had a chart for damage dealt and to hit stuff (it was very complicated to my third or fourth grade mind, but I remember puzzling over that chart).  I always assumed that was a carry over from OD&D, but it isn't?  

So would you describe OD&D as just covering the basics of a roleplaying game with the participants (players/dms) encouraged to fill in the blanks?


----------



## Derro

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> I recently got out my old 1e books (to study the graphic design, actually, such as it was...)
> 
> Not only is there a 1e feel, there's a very specific 1e _smell_. My 1e books smell like no other




I miss my 1e DMG. The original with the battle at the City of Brass not the Easley with the wizard. The only good 1e originals I have are the Cthulhu/Moorcock Deities and Demi-gods and three (WTF?) copies of Fiend Folio. And I'd sooner part with my left walnut than those.


----------



## Crothian

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> The DMG still falls open at my touch to all the most heavily trafficked pages. I can literally hold it by the spine, think of a section, and just let it fall open to that page.




We always joked that you could tell a used DMG by the way it would always open to the to hit tables.


----------



## Crothian

Derro said:
			
		

> I miss my 1e DMG. The original with the battle at the City of Brass not the Easley with the wizard. The only good 1e originals I have are the Cthulhu/Moorcock Deities and Demi-gods and three (WTF?) copies of Fiend Folio. And I'd sooner part with my left walnut than those.




I recently got my books out of an old box and found out I have three copies of Oriental Adventures.  I have no idea why.


----------



## Korgoth

der_kluge said:
			
		

> But even that's not entirely true, is it? I mean, it's one that to put that as a stat block for an Orc, but quite a different thing for a troll - which regenerates (how much? How often) or a skeleton (takes half damage from slashing weapons) - so some monsters have *other* things that can complicate the stat block.




Well, if a monster does something special I might note it, like Ghouls: AC 6, HD 2, Move 9", damage + paralyze.

Everything does a base of 1d6 damage in the game.  Some monsters get a bonus (like an ogre gets 1d6+2), but instead of that I actually base damage dice on a comparison of attacker's hit dice to defender's hit dice, like in Empire of the Petal Throne.  Basically, if a 4 HD creature attacks a 1 HD creature, it rolls 2 dice; it progresses in steps of two based on that (though it counts 1+1 as a step, but not other plusses as steps; I don't find this hard to remember).  You can run it either of those two ways, or assign a flat number of damage dice based on Hit Dice (an idea I also like; you can make it roughly equal the Fighting Man progression on the To Hit chart... so 1 die at lvls 1-3, 2 dice at lvls 4-6, etc.).  Any of those three are easy, transparent methods.

Which highlights more of the strengths of the system.  Virtually nothing changes based on which style of damage rolls you pick, except the narrow thing you were hoping would change.

Also, monster creation is easy.  Abomination of Yondo: AC 5, HD 9, Move 9", poisoned.  Done!

I think the game, in its simplicity, allows for a ton of options.  I think that feats limit options because if you don't have the feat, you can't do what it defines.  So every feat that gets added, the less characters are allowed to actually do (without the feat).  In OD&D there are no such things, so it's all a Ref call and a roll.

Bascially, it's a question of whether you like rules-light.  If you do, and you like hacking together your own unique snowflake of a game, you're golden and OD&D is what you want.  If you want rules-light but "plays straight out of the box", you're looking for Classic instead.  And if you want feats, skills and all the rest of it, well clearly there are those choices out there too.


----------



## hossrex

I love this topic post!  Genuinely.

As my gaming group struggles with the decision about whether or not to switch to 4E, I've made very clear that I would either like to try the new edition (just to see what its like), or go back to the original Gygax stuff...  partially because its classic (regarding the quote in whomevers signature, I might prefer a 2008 mustang to the Model T...  but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be awesome to bust out a tricked out Model T every now and then), and partially because the tragic event last month really had me thinking about *THE* man of DnD.  It just makes me want to play the game the *HE* created...  and not the games he influenced.

Drawbacks?  Of course there are a few.  Find me a system without them and I'll do my best to wake you from that lucid dream you seem to be having.


----------



## John Crichton

1e?  OD&D?

I haven't played that game in, like, 9 years.

Meh.


----------



## Klaus

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> I recently got out my old 1e books (to study the graphic design, actually, such as it was...)
> 
> Not only is there a 1e feel, there's a very specific 1e _smell_. My 1e books smell like no others I own.
> 
> Opened a floodgate of memories and emotions.
> 
> The DMG still falls open at my touch to all the most heavily trafficked pages. I can literally hold it by the spine, think of a section, and just let it fall open to that page.



 Major ditto.

I sadly don't have the 1e books I learned the game with, other than the Fiend Folio. But they did have a unique smell that induces time travel.


----------



## Lanefan

Derro said:
			
		

> ... and three (WTF?) copies of Fiend Folio.



Don't know about Fiend Folio, but years ago we empirically proved that 1e Monster Manuals, when left on their own in a cupboard for any length of time, will reproduce.

Lane-"it's the only way we could explain why we had so many"-fan


----------



## Pants

Derro said:
			
		

> And I'd sooner part with my left walnut than those.



You have a left walnut?! I hear there's a cream for that.


----------



## Derro

Pants said:
			
		

> You have a left walnut?! I hear there's a cream for that.




Walnut cream? Sounds like a dessert. Something that would go with pears I think.


----------



## Relique du Madde

Klaus said:
			
		

> they did have a unique smell that induces time travel.




I envy you because I inherited my older brother's collection which has a unique smell that  reminds me of rodent urine and mildew.   I don;t mind though since the reason I ever became interested in mythology, storytelling, and rpgs was after looking through the 1e books back when I was 6.


----------



## Pbartender

Pbartender said:
			
		

> _Keep that kind of language to yourself, buddy - PS_




What kind of language?  This kind of language?

You can go  your -ing   , you god-ed ing son of ing piece of .

Or, if it please you, how about in haiku?

Plane Sailing  off
 ing   er
Stupid ing Mod.


----------



## SSquirrel

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> It's because he doesn't like *4e*, isn't it?
> 
> There's no lesson to be learned if Morrus is doing what I think he's doing. There will be no joy in Mudville. Even jokes can be taken too far.




KM I'm not even a mod and I'm ready to ban you for that one


----------



## der_kluge

Korgoth said:
			
		

> In OD&D there are no such things, so it's all a Ref call and a roll.




It's probably the best, and worst thing about OD&D right there. If you have an awesome ref who is all about the story, and cinematic, and being very open to the players trying -whatever- ("I leap onto the dragon's back!") then it would be great.  But if you have a more railroady GM who likes the control over the PCs (let's face it, we've all played with this kind before), OD&D sucks marbles.


----------



## MerricB

My introduction to Michael Moorcock was through an article published in a "Best of Dragon" compilation. It was about The Vanishing Tower.

Reminds me of this thread, really. 

Cheers!


----------



## SSquirrel

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> Actually no, but I don't anticipate that creating any problems. I was made an Admin for my technical skills rather than my good looks (but I don't want to drag this off topic)
> 
> Cheers




At this stage I don't think it's a case of dragging this thread off topic, it's more a matter of threatening death, beating and pummeling it to head back ON topic.

I never owned the OD&D books, started 20 years ago w/Basic.  Besides only having 3 classes in OD&D, what are the other differences really?


----------



## Derro

MerricB said:
			
		

> My introduction to Michael Moorcock was through an article published in a "Best of Dragon" compilation. It was about The Vanishing Tower.




From the City of Brass to Dead-Orc Pass...


----------



## Rel

Well I've caught up on this train wreck of a thread.  Just a bit over 12 hours after I started it.  Amazing how much can change in so short a time.  I'm genuinely sorry for some of the things that were said publicly and privately today.

But hey, tomorrow is another day.  I've had some contacts with some folks and I'm interested to see where this all leads.

See you on the flip side.


----------



## Darrin Drader

*Oh, you poor, poor people. You think this was all a joke? Oh no, Morrus signed on the dotted line and now this place is mine. All      ing mine! That's right, all the stupid pendantic      ing will soon be at an end because I'm breaking out the banhammer and smashing some of you poor sods to make examples out of you.

Oh, and don't go thinking of running off now. Where are you planning on going?      ing RPG.net? Make me laugh! So everyone get ready for the new ENWorld, or as I like to call it       YOU WORLD!*

Piratecat, please check your PMs. I will need a henchman or two, and if you can't do it and maintain your dignity as PKitty, maybe we could break Apocalyptic Kitty out of retirement? Seriously. think about it.


----------



## Hairfoot

SSquirrel said:
			
		

> I never owned the OD&D books, started 20 years ago w/Basic.  Besides only having 3 classes in OD&D, what are the other differences really?



Trying to figure that out, myself.

Now, is this a joke thread because so many of us grognards are farcically threatening to return to original D&Ds, or because the idea of _not _playing 4E is patently absurd?


----------



## Jdvn1

Whisperfoot said:
			
		

> *Oh, you poor, poor people. You think this was all a joke? Oh no, Morrus signed on the dotted line and now this place is mine. All      ing mine! *




... Wait, I was hoping to sign... and I've heard a few others say that _they_ signed as well... Where's Morrus so we can ask him to clear this up? ... Wait, did he ask _you_ for the money up front too?


----------



## Darrin Drader

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> [/b]
> ... Wait, I was hoping to sign... and I've heard a few others say that _they_ signed as well... Where's Morrus so we can ask him to clear this up? ... Wait, did he ask _you_ for the money up front too?




Of course he did, but I'm smarter than the average fiend. I put the money into a holding fund that won't get transferred to him until I have full access.

As for those others who did put the money up, PWNED!


----------



## Remathilis

Wait, what happened here? I was enjoying watching the mods fight like they're auditioning for the next season of _Flavor of Love_, and all of a sudden a doey-eyed block of nostalgia breaks out.

Onto other topics: my friend who has DMed as long as I has also experienced Spontaneous Rulebook Gestation: He has two copies of Legends & Lore 2nd Ed, and THREE DMG 3.5's. Apparently along the way, they ate his 3.5 PHB as well....


----------



## Korgoth

der_kluge said:
			
		

> It's probably the best, and worst thing about OD&D right there. If you have an awesome ref who is all about the story, and cinematic, and being very open to the players trying -whatever- ("I leap onto the dragon's back!") then it would be great.  But if you have a more railroady GM who likes the control over the PCs (let's face it, we've all played with this kind before), *All Gaming Whatsoever* sucks marbles.




Edited to reflect my general response (I won't say FIFY because I find that snotty).

I don't think the most codified, RPGA-approved, longer than the OED set of rules can save you from a killjoy DM.  I'm not saying there's no reason to choose rules-heavy, but if the reason for choosing rules-heavy is as a defence against doofus DMs, I don't think that will really help.


----------



## howandwhy99

Hey!  I'm a moderator!  

-Thanks Mr. Whisperfoot


----------



## Lanefan

howandwhy99 said:
			
		

> Hey!  I'm a moderator!
> 
> -Thanks Mr. Whisperfoot



Mr. Whisperfoot needs to work on making your username come up in bold above your avatar, then... 

Lanefan


----------



## Lanefan

Korgoth said:
			
		

> Edited to reflect my general response (I won't say FIFY because I find that snotty).
> 
> I don't think the most codified, RPGA-approved, longer than the OED set of rules can save you from a killjoy DM.  I'm not saying there's no reason to choose rules-heavy, but if the reason for choosing rules-heavy is as a defence against doofus DMs, I don't think that will really help.



Agreed.  Thing is, there's some out there who think the existence and constant use of lots and lots of rules will somehow magically turn doofus DMs into functional-if-not-brilliant DMs; and it just don't work that way. 

Lanefan


----------



## Dinkeldog

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> Mine smell like the duct tape I used to hold the bindings together!  I am however chagrined to learn that I don't remember the page of the combat charts correctly off the top of my head anymore.  I thought pg101, it was actually 74.




N00b


----------



## Dinkeldog

Lanefan said:
			
		

> Agreed.  Thing is, there's some out there who think the existence and constant use of lots and lots of rules will somehow magically turn doofus DMs into functional-if-not-brilliant DMs; and it just don't work that way.
> 
> Lanefan




Are you suggesting that a lack of rules somehow magically turns doofus DMs into functional-if-not-brilliant DMs?  

After all, that lack of rules led my best friend who was always DMing to always populate one room of the dungeon with 16 kobolds.  Against my single PC.  It was a bloodbath every time.  The campaign came down to trying to guess which room would have something randomly in it that I could take out at 1st level.


----------



## Dinkeldog

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> I recently got out my old 1e books (to study the graphic design, actually, such as it was...)
> 
> Not only is there a 1e feel, there's a very specific 1e _smell_. My 1e books smell like no others I own.




Did you ever get Chivalry and Sorcery?  Not to throw this thread off-topic, but those books had a real distinct odor.  Then again, so did my best friend's rulebook for Bushido.


----------



## Lanefan

Dinkeldog said:
			
		

> Are you suggesting that a lack of rules somehow magically turns doofus DMs into functional-if-not-brilliant DMs?



No, I'm suggesting there's nothing that can do this, and following up with a corollary suggestion that seeing as a good DM doesn't need lots and lots of rules to be a good DM that the rules just get out of the way and let the game proceed. 


> After all, that lack of rules led my best friend who was always DMing to always populate one room of the dungeon with 16 kobolds.  Against my single PC.  It was a bloodbath every time.  The campaign came down to trying to guess which room would have something randomly in it that I could take out at 1st level.



Henchmen.  You needed to drag several henches and hirelings along, to even up the odds a bit....

Lanefan


----------



## CleverNickName

Pbartender said:
			
		

> What kind of language?  This kind of language?
> 
> (snip)
> 
> Or, if it please you, how about in haiku?
> 
> (snip)



(scratches head, blinks in amazement)

I'm not sure what exactly happened today.  Maybe everyone suddenly started taking crazy pills, or maybe I did and didn't know it.  Perhaps the people from the Battle.Net forums hacked everyone's accounts and started posting under false names?  I dunno.  All I know is, many people that I used to find insightful and dignified have started behaving like...well, much less than insightful and dignified.

I've been following this thread all afternoon because certain posts have elevated my concern about the future of this site and the community it serves.  Yet following this thread gets more difficult with every passing hour, because the thread keeps moving from one forum to another without warning, rhyme, or reason.  When I finally _do_ manage to track the thread down, this is the kind of crap I find.

If this is all supposed to be a joke, I am not seeing the funny.


----------



## Lanefan

CleverNickName said:
			
		

> I've been following this thread all afternoon because certain posts have elevated my concern about the future of this site and the community it serves.  Yet following this thread gets more difficult with every passing hour, because the thread keeps moving from one forum to another without warning, rhyme, or reason.



Well, trying to track this thread down is only going to raise your blood pressure.  It's much easier to just pick a random forum, sit there, and wait; and the thread will eventually find its way to you. 

Wandering thread tables for the win!

Lanefan


----------



## Relique du Madde

CleverNickName said:
			
		

> (scratches head, blinks in amazement)
> 
> <SNIP>
> 
> If this is all supposed to be a joke, I am not seeing the funny.




Don't worry now that the forum has been pushed back into the late 70s, Andy Kauffman is alive  which means that you will eventually see the brilliance in the style of humor forced onto us by the moderators* of this site.   If not, then you will be like the majority of Andy's audience who didn't realize they they were the butt of an elaborate joke with a the punchline designed only to piss them off while those in the know laugh at you from behind the stage.

Oh yeah... and VIVA EL HIVE!


* If this day really existed and was not an elaborate prank, then all I have to say is that Loki must be proud.


----------



## MerakSpielman

Loki is proud either way. So are Eris and Coyote.

Reading this thread is honestly the most fun I've had on ENworld in YEARS! Though my bull(expletive deleted)-meter is going way off the scale, and I'm 99% sure this is some sort of (expletive deleted)ed-up prank, It's still as entertaining as (expletive deleted)ing (expletive deleted).


Anyway, on-topic (is there such a thing?), I've pre-ordered my 4e books and am planning on a campaign. And I don't give a flying (expletive deleted) what the rules say, I'm going to use my imagination, have fun, and do improv role-playing at the table.


----------



## Olaf the Stout

Well that was a fun read!  Very entertaining guys!   

Olaf the Stout


----------



## Mark

Whisperfoot said:
			
		

> *     YOU WORLD!*





I can't wait until August comes for the FUNie Awards.


----------



## Mistwell

CleverNickName said:
			
		

> If this is all supposed to be a joke, I am not seeing the funny.




Try harder.


----------



## Mistwell

Dinkeldog said:
			
		

> Not to throw this thread off-topic, but...


----------



## Mistwell

Dinkeldog said:
			
		

> Not to throw this thread off-topic, but...


----------



## CleverNickName

Mistwell said:
			
		

> Try harder.



Hmm.  Must not be my particular brand of humor.  (shrug)  I'll try again in a week or two.


----------



## MerakSpielman

I have received news that this is not, in fact, an elaborate joke. The interesting thing is I didn't THINK I had inside connections. But, apparently, I do.


----------



## howandwhy99

This is no joke.  OD&D is the one true game.  Period.

Also, I wanted to point you guys to the Diaglo's OD&D News Art forum where I posted two new OD&D images by Claudio Pozas himself. (link )

Anyways, I'm done covering for the night.  See ya.


----------



## Darrin Drader

Diaglo will be handling most of the day-to-day running of the site. I'll just be overseeing things.


----------



## SSquirrel

Just make me Lord of the Squirrels in the new regime is all I ask.  I mean, I have EVIL SQUIRREL PCs in D&D now *points to WotC website* heh


----------



## CleverNickName

Wow...you guys rock.  \m/

I was all sorts of angry, verklempt, and huffy about this whole thread...that is, until I saw the rebuild of the front page.  The "review" on the first page for the 1975 Greyhawk modules? a detailed look at my beloved 1981/1983 Boxed Sets?  And I laughed out loud when I read about the "new" concept of cantrips ("they're like teeny, weeny spells.")

I'm not one of those guys who can't take a joke, and I'll always admit it when I've been had.  I never saw it coming, and I ate it up like candy.  I humbly bow before your superior wit, sense of humor, comic timing, and all of the other awesome awesomeness, and offer up this bottle of Dead Guy ale as a libation.

Well played, gentlemen.  Well played.  Especially you two, Piratecat and PBartender.


----------



## physics_ninja

I, for one, welcome our new OD&D overlords.


----------



## Lord Sessadore

CleverNickName said:
			
		

> Wow...you guys rock.  \m/
> 
> I was all sorts of angry, verklempt, and huffy about this whole thread...that is, until I saw the rebuild of the front page.  The "review" on the first page for the 1975 Greyhawk modules? a detailed look at my beloved 1981/1983 Boxed Sets?  And I laughed out loud when I read about the "new" concept of cantrips ("they're like teeny, weeny spells.")
> 
> I'm not one of those guys who can't take a joke, and I'll always admit it when I've been had.  I never saw it coming, and I ate it up like candy.  I humbly bow before your superior wit, sense of humor, comic timing, and all of the other awesome awesomeness, and offer up this bottle of Dead Guy ale as a libation.
> 
> Well played, gentlemen.  Well played.  Especially you two, Piratecat and PBartender.



Yeah, I suspected when I saw those two news items under "April 1st".  But then I read this thread...

All I can say is, I really, really hope this is a big, elaborate joke.  If it is, very well played.  If not... then I'm sad


----------



## Dausuul

Lord Sessadore said:
			
		

> Yeah, I suspected when I saw those two news items under "April 1st".  But then I read this thread...
> 
> All I can say is, I really, really hope this is a big, elaborate joke.  If it is, very well played.  If not... then I'm sad




I was on the fence about this for a long time--some of those early posts had a very sharp edge on them that made me doubt it was a joke.  However, the sheer magnitude of the arguments in this thread has convinced me it can't possibly be serious; how many mods have had their mod-ness arbitrarily revoked?  How many forums has this thread bounced through?  And how many times has some mod announced that this thread was closed, yet people kept posting?

Conversely, if the stuff going on here _were_ serious, I wouldn't expect anybody to be in the mood for perpetrating April Fool's pranks, and "Diaglo's OD&D News" is obviously one.

And they even got a pretty good discussion of the merits of OD&D out of it.

As one of my fellow gamers would say, well played, gentlemen.


----------



## Lanefan

I just hope that Henry's resignation announcement - which just appeared at the top of these pages - is a continuation of the prank, rather than serious.

We'll know, if it's still there on the 2nd.

Lanefan


----------



## Kzach

Rel said:
			
		

> IN CASE IT ISN'T CLEAR, I POSTED THIS THREAD IN THE 4E FORUM BECAUSE IT WAS THE ABOVE REALIZATION THAT HAS DECIDED ME AGAINST ADOPTING 4E. THANK YOU.



That is a weak and pitiful excuse. This thread was created for no other reason than to stir trouble.

I've reported this thread to the FCC.


----------



## Lord Sessadore

Yeah.  If it's all a joke, then well done, and I'll move on with life.  

If it's not a joke, I'll still move on with life ... but couldn't they have waited until the 2nd??

Anyway, I'm not gonna make a big deal about it.  I'm assuming it's an elaborate funny for now.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

I think this isn't a joke thread. It's a therapy thread - made for me, to help me battle against my red-text phobia! 

It's a nice gesture, really, really is, but it just doesn't work.


----------



## Baumi

Too bad that OD&D was only the second RPG, since Savage Worlds kicked so many RPG-Systems-Asses that it made a Timejump back to the 60s and Rule now as the best and first RPG ever! 

@Darkness: since your are still Admin, how about uping me a to Modstatus, kick out all these New Worlders and declare this site property of the Austrian-Hungarian Empire?


----------



## dragonlordofpoondari

el-remmen said:
			
		

> In the words of one our most esteemed posters of all time, "Piratecat is a lying bitch."




 Best. Thread. Evar.


----------



## Charwoman Gene

Take a bow, ladies and gentlemen.


----------



## Pbartender

Whisperfoot said:
			
		

> *Oh, you poor, poor people. You think this was all a joke? Oh no, Morrus signed on the dotted line and now this place is mine. All      ing mine! That's right, all the stupid pendantic      ing will soon be at an end because I'm breaking out the banhammer and smashing some of you poor sods to make examples out of you.
> 
> Oh, and don't go thinking of running off now. Where are you planning on going?      ing RPG.net? Make me laugh! So everyone get ready for the new ENWorld, or as I like to call it       YOU WORLD!*
> 
> Piratecat, please check your PMs. I will need a henchman or two, and if you can't do it and maintain your dignity as PKitty, maybe we could break Apocalyptic Kitty out of retirement? Seriously. think about it.




What a dip.

Hey Darrin, if you really want to pretend like the you're ing swearing, you need to take out the god- spaces between the ing smilies.  Clicking on the  smilies four times in a row just makes you look like a ing poser who's too afraid type "" in public.



			
				CleverNickName said:
			
		

> All I know is, many people that I used to find insightful and dignified have started behaving like...well, much less than insightful and dignified.




Insightful and dignified, my ass.

The only reason I'm posting like this, is that about 4 pages ago in the thread I noticed █████████ ██████████████████ █████████████ Rel, Nemm and Piratecat ████████████████ ██████. After that, ████ ███████████ ██████████████████████ ██████████████. So I think you might understand why ███████████████████ █████████████████████████ ████████ ████.   the ers.

ity ity   ing !

NYAH!

Can I be a Moderator? I think I've proven I've got all the necesssary skills.







Wow.  I'm tired.


----------



## Plane Sailing

Pbartender said:
			
		

> What a dip.
> 
> Hey Darrin, if you really want to pretend like the you're ing swearing, you need to take out the god- spaces between the ing smilies.  Clicking on the  smilies four times in a row just makes you look like a ing poser who's too afraid type "" in public.
> 
> 
> 
> Insightful and dignified, my ass.
> 
> The only reason I'm posting like this, is that about 4 pages ago in the thread I noticed █████████ ██████████████████ █████████████ Rel, Nemm and Piratecat ████████████████ ██████. After that, ████ ███████████ ██████████████████████ ██████████████. So I think you might understand why ███████████████████ █████████████████████████ ████████ ████.   the ers.
> 
> ity ity   ing !
> 
> NYAH!
> 
> Can I be a Moderator? I think I've proven I've got all the necesssary skills.
> Wow.  I'm tired.





I try to be nice, I really do, but where does it get me.

Pbartender, you're suspended for a week.


----------



## Rel

Well I'm pleased to announce that, as one of the few moderators here to remain faithful to OD&D and the Legacy of Gygax, I have been reinstated under the new management!

Now let's see if we can clean house and remove some of the bastards who gave me such fits yesterday...


----------



## Rodrigo Istalindir

Rel said:
			
		

> Well I'm pleased to announce that, as one of the few moderators here to remain faithful to OD&D and the Legacy of Gygax, I have been reinstated under the new management!
> 
> Now let's see if we can clean house and remove some of the bastards who gave me such fits yesterday...




Sweet!  Hey, sorry about some of the stuff I said yesterday.  I was just a little cranky.

I'm really glad to see that diaglo has kept somebody who really "gets" what D&D is supposed to be about.


----------



## Wulf Ratbane

I brought my AD&D Player's Handbook to work with me today. 

I'm feeling very... secure. 

[sniffffffffffffffffff]


----------



## diaglo

Rodrigo Istalindir said:
			
		

> Ok, that's just a load of crap.  If the downfall of the ancien regime results in the likes of you being allowed to wield power again, I call for a recount.  Or re-roll.  Or something.  I don't care if Diaglo granted us amnesty, I'm willing to take up arms (or keyboard, as it were) and protest.
> 
> Who's with me?



20 is optimal.

but i'm all for refereeing whatever the members number is now for the site.


----------



## el-remmen

I'm willing to come back and help to moderate the plebes on the stipulation that Alex/Plane-sailing is stripped of his powers.


----------



## Piratecat

Rodrigo Istalindir said:
			
		

> Sweet! Hey, sorry about some of the stuff I said yesterday. I was just a little cranky.
> 
> I'm really glad to see that diaglo has kept somebody who really "gets" what D&D is supposed to be about.



I'm with you! This new regime _rocks._ They've returned to the basics, and thus have restored my faith in gaming. I will never, ever rest until I find a way to make sure their ideas live on forever!

Man, I need a sammich.


----------



## Rel

I'm really glad to see that everybody is on board!  I was expecting to have to ban a bunch of folks but you guys have really come around.  Kudos!


----------



## Rodrigo Istalindir

WTF?

Funny, Rel 

Bad enough to edit my post for no reason, but editing the quoted text is just wrong.  Seriously, is this what things are going to be like around here?  If I wanted this kind of crap, I'd post at Circvs Maximvs.  My words are my children, and changing them is like killing one of my kids.


----------



## Piratecat

Hey, you edited my post! You BASTARD. Change it back!


----------



## EricNoah

I've got a very warm, fuzzy feeling inside.  

Hopefully I can get to the bathroom before it comes back up!


----------



## Remathilis

That's Right, who       ing called it ON PAGE 8!!!!!


THIS GUY!!! 

*
I TOLD YOU!!! You didn't believe me! WHY DIDN'T YOU BELIEVE ME?!?!?!?!?!? *


----------



## Plane Sailing

el-remmen said:
			
		

> I'm willing to come back and help to moderate the plebes on the stipulation that Alex/Plane-sailing is stripped of his powers.




I respectfully step down.


----------



## Rodrigo Istalindir

EricNoah said:
			
		

> I've got a very warm, fuzzy feeling inside.
> 
> Hopefully I can get to the bathroom before it comes back up!




I told you that muffin wasn't green because of St. Patrick's Day.


----------



## el-remmen

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> I respectfully step down.





That is very gracious of you. <snicker>


----------



## hafrogman

el-remmen said:
			
		

> That is very gracious of you. <snicker>



I see what you did there.


----------



## el-remmen

hafrogman said:
			
		

> I see what you did there.




ha, frogman.


----------



## Krusk

Original D&D or 4th Edition...  It matters not to Krusk...  

Poor, neglected, unwanted half-orc barbarians have no place in either.


----------



## WhatGravitas

hafrogman said:
			
		

> I see what you did there.



Then don't talk about it... or your post will vanish...

Cheers, LT.


----------



## hafrogman

Lord Tirian said:
			
		

> Then don't talk about it... or your post will vanish...
> 
> Cheers, LT.



I, uh, don't know what you're talking about.


----------



## Umbran

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Hey, you edited my post! You BASTARD. Change it back!





Discussion of moderation in-thread is not acceptable, and abuse of the moderation staff won't be tolerated.  Please, if you cannot keep your posts civil, hold off until you've cooled down.  

If anyone has any questions about a particular bit of moderation was handled, please e-mail Rel, specifically.  His address is available in a stickied post at the top of the Meta Forum


----------



## Rodrigo Istalindir

Umbran said:
			
		

> His address is available in a stickied post at the top of the Meta Forum[/color]




Cool.  I'll go sign him up to receive daily updates from fatbottom.girls.makethis.rockinworldgoround.


----------



## cougent

Shouldn't this thread get moved to the "Talking the Talk" forum?


----------



## Charwoman Gene

Here  is my response thread to the actions of Morrus.


----------



## Deset Gled

I'm confused...

Is this the thread where we talk about politics and religion?  Because the ones you like all suck.


----------



## thedungeondelver

So will this thread be closed at one 12:00:00 eastern standard, GMT, or what, exactly?

I mean being as the date will have changed and all.


----------



## Irda Ranger

Rel said:
			
		

> I mean what's at the heart of gaming?  Fun.  Imagination.  Stories.  Mystery.  Magic.
> 
> Seems like I've let those fall by the wayside amid all the discussions of tactics, balance, "what's core?", "does this model reality?", and "where's the verisimilitude?"  When did I start using the word "verisimilitude" on a regular basis anyway?



I've never had these discussions at my table while playing 3E. NEVER. You've just been hanging out too long on EN World. The atmosphere here is poisonous.  You have let it corrupt you, and lead you away from the "Fun.  Imagination.  Stories.  Mystery.  Magic."

I know it's hard to admit, but what's really happened to you is a direct result of a failure in your character. Your flawed and misguided preferences have lead you down a dark path, and it's not the game system which is to blame. I guarantee that you will have these same issues with OD&D.  OD&D cannot make you a better person.




			
				Rel said:
			
		

> With Gary passing recently, it had me reflecting back on gaming with him this past GenCon and how much *pure fun* that was.  None of the other BS that we're constantly reading about here on the boards.  Just the magic of enjoyment that comes from exploring a dungeon, falling down a 10' pit and smashing skeletons while finding a Shield +1.



I'm sure it was, but the OD&D==fun correlation isn't causation. You played OD&D before you became in EN World regular. That's the real cause.




			
				Rel said:
			
		

> There were no attacks of opportunity (although Gary could have given somebody one if he felt it was warranted:  GM judgement at work).  There was no counting squares.  There was no big list of abilities that could be used 1/day.  There were no skills to track.  We had Sleep and Charm Person and we LIKED IT.  And for anything else you could make a Dex check.



On the fly game design at its worst. Not even EGG at his height could think up rules on the fly as well balanced and intuitive as a whole team of really smart designers with hundreds of play testers and months of lead time at their disposal.




			
				Rel said:
			
		

> Just think of how much easier that is to keep track of.



What's to keep track of? How many HP you have and whether you've used your Daily Power cast _Sleep_ yet?

That's right. OD&D had Daily Powers too. They were called spells, but that's just a rose by another different name. OD&D also had At-Will Powers, like Attack and Climb Walls.

Going back to OD&D saves you nothing. _Nothing_. And it certainly won't make up for your personal failings as a player/DM.




			
				Rel said:
			
		

> How much easier is it to PREPARE for?!  When I think of running other versions of D&D, I think my players must assume that I am MADE of free time!  And if I'm going to spend the time to prep the game at all then they can certainly live with a more simplified ruleset where I'm granted a bit more GM fiat.



Simplified ruleset? DM Fiat? More like "We couldn't bother to make a complete ruleset, so you have to do it yourself." And your so-called "preparations" would be just as easy in 3E if there were no actual rules to compare your NPCs and Monsters with.  What you're really trying to avoid isn't the "hard work" of making an NPC or Monster "to spec", but rather you're trying to avoid the embarrassment of one of your players whipping out the D&D 3.5 MMIV and showing you, conclusively, just how badly designed your monsters are. You can't handle the heat, so you've gotten out of the (3E) kitchen.

In short: Your current game system is not the problem. You are. Anyone who says otherwise is selling something.

But I'm not just picking on you, Rel.  Clearly this madness has spread to all of the petty dictators who don't like exposing their (poor) DM-ing skills to playtester informed, critical feedback from their players. I've been a fan of EN World for a long time, for their forward looking and courageous ways. But clearly the nuts have taken over the asylum, and rather than confronting the future it has been rejected by those who fear change.

Good riddance to you all. I'm joining Charwoman Gene's 4E board.


----------



## Belen

Morrus said:
			
		

> Rel, you really should know better.   This is not a 4E thread.  I'm moving it to General.
> 
> Really, I don't have time to babysit you.




W*anker.  You do not know how to play real D&D, so you kill discussion by moving it to General.


----------



## Belen

Xath said:
			
		

> Imp, Vacation




Jeez...can't you come up with a different color?


----------



## Rel

Irda Ranger said:
			
		

> And it certainly won't make up for your personal failings as a player/DM.




Well I don't have any but if I find one I'll let you know.



> Good riddance to you all. I'm joining Charwoman Gene's 4E board.




Don't let the door hitcha where the good lord splitcha!


----------



## qstor

Morrus said:
			
		

> And, frankly, I've had just about enough of this.  I'm tempted to just sign on the dotted line at which point it won't be my problem any more.





Morrus sorry that you've left thanks for all your work. I wanted to get my piece in before the thead was closed. I didn't know about the Eric Noah edition wars thing. Part of me wants to think is this all an April Fools joke but I guess not.

The thread is kinda a train wreck. Do we blame it all on 4e? Not sure...some of the posts in the 4e subforum were too much of WOTC "can do no wrong" for me. 

Now the site is falling. Isn't Dragonsfoot for OD&D/AD&D folks? I used to stick out of the 1e/2e vs 3e fights now I have to pick between ALL the other editions vs 4e and for me the choice is clear. ENworld RIP?

Mike


----------



## Gentlegamer

Irda Ranger said:
			
		

> On the fly game design at its worst. Not even EGG at his height could think up rules on the fly as well balanced and intuitive as a whole team of really smart designers with hundreds of play testers and months of lead time at their disposal.



The players discover what the designers do not. Ad hoc rulings tailored to each group are superior to what "really smart" designers come up with.


----------



## Charwoman Gene

WE DO NOT LIKE PEOPLE POSTING OUR HOME TELEPHONE NUMBERS -- mearls


----------



## Nine Hands

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> Just like 4E!
> 
> The thing is, 4E is designed to be simple by being streamlined - everything falling under consistent mechanics.  And we _still_ see people getting rules wrong, even though there are only a few rules we know so far.
> 
> Rel's point, I think, is that OD&D is simple by being loose, and so it's much harder to get a rule 'wrong', since it's not really possible to get a rule 'right', either.
> 
> If it were up to me, I'd probably put the thread back in the 4E forum - I think that the comparison between OD&D and 4E is at the heart of what Rel is saying.  But I like my job too much, and I'm not going to risk sticking an oar in right now.
> 
> -Hyp.




Yup, as long as there are rules, someone will get them wrong.


----------



## Irda Ranger

Gentlegamer said:
			
		

> The players discover what the designers do not.



If I wanted to be a playtester, I'd sign up. I like my RPGs like I like my cars - well oiled machines that are fast, powerful, and finely tuned.




			
				Gentlegamer said:
			
		

> Ad hoc rulings tailored to each group is superior to what "really smart" designers come up with.



You are not a unique and beautiful snowflake except in the ways your ad hoc rulings are poorly considered.  While there are many ways to be badwrongunfair, there are very few ways to make a fungood rule. A well designed _Dispel Magic_ is equally beneficial to all groups.




			
				Rel said:
			
		

> Don't let the door hitcha where the good lord splitcha!



You can't get rid of me that easily! Let it be known: I will be "The Diaglo of d20." There is only one true fully evolved D&D.  All others are less fit predecessors destined for replacement.


----------



## howandwhy99

Irda Ranger said:
			
		

> You can't get rid of me that easily! Let it be known: I will be "The Diaglo of d20." There is only one true fully evolved D&D.  All others are less fit predecessors destined for replacement.



I suppose we can abide one lone nut naysayer.  Welcome to your new role as court jester.


----------



## blargney the second

My hat of OD&D know no limit.


----------



## Irda Ranger

howandwhy99 said:
			
		

> I suppose we can abide one lone nut naysayer.  Welcome to your new role as court jester.



Oh! _Zing_!

Though I sincerely hope that's the last time in my life I am ever compared with Tom Cruise. It's bad enough having gone to same high school as him (true fact).


----------



## Michael Morris

blargney the second said:
			
		

> My hat of OD&D know no limit.



 Those are treasonous words citizen. Why if I were a mod and not just a mere tech admin I'd ban you.


----------



## the Jester

Wow, I read about 75% of this thread (the beginning, most of the middle and the end) and I'm sorry that things got all out of hand. I hope that everyone can just be friends when all is said and done. I hope you guys in the former/current admin/mod zone aren't still hating on each other and stuff. 

But I have a question for the new management: will you allow us to post our own adventures for various versions of the ruleset (either od&d, BECMI or 1e, or I suppose later versions too)? I really doubt whether WotC would care about that kind of thing, you could prolly get away with it. You might even be able to sell the good ones in teh WNEorld store!


----------



## vermicious knid

Whisperfoot said:
			
		

> *Oh, you poor, poor people. You think this was all a joke? Oh no, Morrus signed on the dotted line and now this place is mine. All      ing mine! That's right, all the stupid pendantic      ing will soon be at an end because I'm breaking out the banhammer and smashing some of you poor sods to make examples out of you.
> 
> Oh, and don't go thinking of running off now. Where are you planning on going?      ing RPG.net? Make me laugh! So everyone get ready for the new ENWorld, or as I like to call it       YOU WORLD!*
> 
> Piratecat, please check your PMs. I will need a henchman or two, and if you can't do it and maintain your dignity as PKitty, maybe we could break Apocalyptic Kitty out of retirement? Seriously. think about it.




So are you going to unban yourself on Circus Maximus?


----------



## blargney the second

Michael Morris said:
			
		

> Those are treasonous words citizen. Why if I were a mod and not just a mere tech admin I'd ban you.



Neener neener!


----------



## Greylock

Cthulhu's Librarian said:
			
		

> Go ahead. If this is what ENW is offering up for discussion anymore, I could care less if those ers ban me. If they can pull their heads out of their es long enough to hit the right buttons to do it. The mods here are jokes. I'm going back to a real message board.



Hi, Rich, 

How are you doing today? Haven't seen you around in a long while, but I wanted to say "howdy, darned good to see ya!". I know, it's very unlikely that you'll see this, but unless I find your email address lying around, I'd never get a chance again.

Hey, didn't you keep at alsih2o's PbP for a while after I was "laid off" from his forum? I wonder how it all turned out.

Oh well, see ya around.

Grey



			
				Whisperfoot said:
			
		

> *Oh, you poor, poor people.*



Hi Darrin,

Darned good to see you stepping up to the plate, and returning ENWorld to it's roots. Well, D&D's roots. But at least the board is in good 'Merican hands now. Well, except that you're in Washington, which pretty much means you're really a Commie or a Canadian in disguise. Oh well. Pickers can't be choosy.

Guess this means the smilie page is going to expand some, right? Kewl. I like smilies. 

Oh well, gotta run. Good to see you taking such an active hand in things, unlike the prior owner, who just sat on the hoard of GP ENWorld shipped daily to Britland.

See ya,

Grey


----------



## Thulcondar

I play AD&D so I'm getting a kick out of these replies...


----------



## howandwhy99

Michael Morris said:
			
		

> Those are treasonous words citizen. Why if I were a mod and not just a mere tech admin I'd ban you.



Hey Michael, PM me.  I have some tech concerns for you regarding my account.


----------



## Lanefan

blargney the second said:
			
		

> My hat of OD&D know no limit.



Blarg, you're in Victoria, and I'm in Victoria, and them's fightin' words!

Besides, Victoria Rules rule right! 

Lanefan


----------



## Rel

I've read back over this thread and you folks have given me a lot to think about regarding some of the potential problems of OD&D.

I think I'll use Savage Worlds for my next campaign instead.


----------



## Rodrigo Istalindir

Rel said:
			
		

> I've read back over this thread and you folks have given me a lot to think about regarding some of the potential problems of OD&D.
> 
> I think I'll use Savage Worlds for my next campaign instead.


----------



## Greylock

Rel said:
			
		

> I've read back over this thread and you folks have given me a lot to think about regarding some of the potential problems of OD&D.
> 
> I think I'll use Savage Worlds for my next campaign instead.




Why learn a whole new system? Why not use Castles & Crusades? It's Crusaderlicious.


----------



## Charwoman Gene

Rel said:
			
		

> I've read back over this thread and you folks have given me a lot to think about regarding some of the potential problems of OD&D.
> 
> I think I'll use Savage Worlds for my next campaign instead.




*twitch* *twitch*

*cry*


----------



## howandwhy99

Rel said:
			
		

> I've read back over this thread and you folks have given me a lot to think about regarding some of the potential problems of OD&D.
> 
> I think I'll use Savage Worlds for my next campaign instead.



I think you need a nice lay down and some warm milk.  Maybe a short nap?  I know when I have a big day sometimes the world seems too much to handle.  Don't worry.  It will sort itself out.  No need to get rash or start dismantling your own happiness because of others, right?  We can talk more tomorrow.  Maybe we could play a nice game of OD&D?


----------



## Bront

Rel said:
			
		

> I've read back over this thread and you folks have given me a lot to think about regarding some of the potential problems of OD&D.
> 
> I think I'll use Savage Worlds for my next campaign instead.



Chainmail might have worked better.


----------



## Darrin Drader

vermicious knid said:
			
		

> So are you going to unban yourself on Circus Maximus?




Actually I intend to turn it completely over to Edena of Neith.


----------



## Henry

Rel said:
			
		

> I think I'll use Savage Worlds for my next campaign instead.



*
HERETIC!

BURN HIM!*


----------



## Michael Morris

Well I hope everyone had fun - we're back to normal now, and a countdown begins...


----------



## Korgoth

Michael Morris said:
			
		

> Well I hope everyone had fun - we're back to normal now, and a countdown begins...




*sniffsniff* It was fun while it lasted.


----------



## physics_ninja

Michael Morris said:
			
		

> Well I hope everyone had fun - we're back to normal now, and a countdown begins...




I, for one, welcome our Normal Overlords.


----------



## CleverNickName

Michael Morris said:
			
		

> Well I hope everyone had fun - we're back to normal now, and a countdown begins...



A countdown, eh?  Hmm....


----------



## blargney the second

physics_ninja said:
			
		

> I, for one, welcome our Normal Overlords.



*raises his fist piously*
Up the Sun!


----------



## Plane Sailing

I guess it is worth closing and archiving this thread for future posterity then.

We, the admins, mods and co-conspirators of ENworld hope you had lots of fun with our various Aprils Fools japes


----------

