# Modern & Futuristic Weapons



## Sigurd13 (Mar 22, 2009)

So this seems like a ~fairly~ uncommon topic with a modest underground following. Hopefully I can still garner some decent feedback for the weapons I've made so far. 

*Setting*: Pre-War Eberron. 

The year is 533 by the Galifar calendar of Eberron, before THE War and just after the observatories have been built. It is here, at this point in the Eberron Universe’s timeline, that I'm inserting the old AD&D "Tale of the Comet" mod. 

My intent is to plant the seeds of technology and technical mastery that will help explain the technical and artifice-emphasized magical themes and classes of Eberron. That way when 4e Eberron comes out I can run it with this campaign as interesting back-story and introduce firearms. 

*Concept:* Of course the old AD&D rules for the guns were completely outlandish and overpowered. In "Tale of the Comet" the guns were based off of the wizard’s once-a-day magic attacks (remember 15d6 fireballs, anyone? Imagine having a gun that would shoot 6 of them before needing to be reloaded! See the balance issue?) 

So, in an effort to keep damage output balanced I tried to keep the modern guns ~fairly~ simple, basing their damage off of existing weapons.

This way, the only advantage modern weapons offer over their more archaic coutnerparts is their alternate firing modes...which I may or may not have done a good job on balancing. 

Additionally I wanted to lay the groundwork for future ‘gunfighter’ concepts, but instead of putting in the effort to create a new class and worrying about play testing and balance issues I decided to add a short set of weapon properties and feats to enable current classes to use ranged weapons effectively in close combat. 


Enjoy!

*Table of Contents*:



New Combat Action- Reload
New Weapon Properties
New Heroic Tier Feats
Advanced Weapons

Small Arms
Long Arms
Heavy Arms

Melee Weapons
5. Ammunition and Accessories


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## Sigurd13 (Mar 22, 2009)

*New Combat Action, Weapon Properties and Heroic Feats*

New Combat Action-

1.) *Reload*: Minor Action
_You fully reload the weapon’s ammunition._
Effect: The reloaded advanced weapon may now be used normally.

2.) *Switch Ammo:* Minor Action
_You load alternate ammo or equips an ammo attachment._ 
Effect: The modified weapon now benefits from the special ammo's properties. 

3.) *Reload Special Ammo:* Free Action when Reloading
_You Reload with alternate ammo or equip a weapon attachment._
Effect: The modified weapon now benefits from the special ammo's properties in addition to regaining its normal functions.


Weapon Properties-

*Empty #*: At the end of every round in which the weapon is fired, roll a 1d6. If you roll # or higher, you must Reload before you may use this weapon to attack again. 

*CCT*: Close Combat Tactics rated (see Close Combat Tactics feat below).

*Melee:* Useable only when proficient with the weapon. This weapon counts as a melee weapon with a reach of 1 for the purpose of using attack powers containing the melee weapon keyword. 

*Alt Fire[___]*: Alternative Firing mode. Useable only when proficient with the weapon. Allows for the use of a specific alternative firing method as part of an attack action this round. After using an alternative firing mode a weapon is considered out of ammo and must be Reloaded before being used in any form of attack. Modes are listed below:

*_______Long Burst_______*
_You switch the weapon to Long Burst mode and fire extra rounds._
*At-Will **Weapon*
*Minor Action Ranged *weapon
*Effect: *As part of an attack action that uses this weapon you may add an extra +1d6 to the damage roll if the attack hits. The decision to use this power must be made prior to knowing the outcome of the attack. If the attack targets more than one creature only the first target receives this bonus damage. 
You must Reload before you may use this weapon to attack again.
Increase damage to +2d6 damage at 21st level.

*_______Spray_______*
_You switch the weapon to Full Auto and concentrate a spray at your enemy._
*At-Will **Weapon*
*Standard Action Ranged *weapon
*Primary Target: *One creature
*Attack: *Dexterity vs. AC
*Hit: *[1w] damage. Make a Secondary Attack.
Increase damage to [2w] + Dexterity modifier at 21st level.
*Secondary Target: *Each creature adjacent to the primary target with which you have line of effect. Rules for cover apply normally.
*Secondary Attack: *Dexterity vs. AC
*Hit: *Half damage.
*Effect: *You must Reload before you may use this weapon to attack again.
*Special: *This power counts as a ranged basic attack. When a power allows you to make a ranged basic attack, you can use this power.

*_______Burst_______*
_You launch an explosive projectile from the weapon._
*At-Will **Weapon*
*Standard Action Area *burst # within *Ranged *weapon
*Attack: *Dexterity vs. Reflex
*Hit: *[1w] + Dexterity modifier damage.
Increase damage to [2w] + Dexterity modifier at 21st level.
*Effect: *You must Reload before you may use this weapon to attack again.
*Special: *This power counts as a ranged basic attack. When a power allows you to make a ranged basic attack, you can use this power.

*_______Blast_______*
_You discharge a blast from the weapon._
*At-Will **Weapon*
*Standard Action Close *blast # 
*Attack: *Dexterity vs. AC
*Hit: *[1w] + Dexterity modifier damage.
Increase damage to [2w] + Dexterity modifier at 21st level.
*Effect: *You must Reload before you may use this weapon to attack again.
*Special: *This power counts as a ranged basic attack. When a power allows you to make a ranged basic attack, you can use this power.

*_______Beam_______*
_You hold the trigger and the weapon fires a continuous beam of energy._
*At-Will **Weapon*
*Standard Action Area wall **# *within *Ranged *weapon
*Target: *Each creature in the wall
*Attack: *Dexterity vs. AC
*Hit: *[1w] + Dexterity damage. 
Increase damage to [2w] + Dexterity modifier at 21st level.
*Effect: *You must Reload before you may use this weapon to attack again.
*Special: *This power counts as a ranged basic attack. When a power allows you to make a ranged basic attack, you can use this power.
*Note*: The origin square for this attack is the same as the attacker's square, as if it were a ranged attack. Rules for cover apply normally. 

*_______Taze_______*
_Your weapon discharges electricity, dazing the target._
*At-Will **Weapon*
*Standard Action Melee *weapon
*Attack: *Strength vs. Fortitude
Hit: Half[1w] damage and the target is immobilized until the end of your next turn. If target is already immobilized, target is dazed instead. If target is already dazed, target goes unconscious (save ends).
Increase damage to [1w] at 21st level.
*Effect: *You must Reload before you may use this weapon to attack again.



Weapon Feats- 
*Note: A single advanced weapon may be chosen when taking the Weapon Proficiency feat.

*Advanced Weapons Training*: 
*Benefit: *You gain proficiency in an advanced weapon group of your choice (Small Arms, Long Arms, Heavy Arms, Artillery or Advanced Melee).

*Close Combat Tactics*: 
*Benefit: *You may use this weapon in melee combat without provoking opportunity attacks. You provoke all other opportunity attacks normally. 

*Point Blank Shot*: 
*Benefit: *Anytime you could normally make an opportunity attack you may make a ranged basic attack using an Advanced Weapon instead of a melee basic attack. This attack does not provoke opportunity attacks. 

*Ranged Training:*
*Benefit: *Choose an ability other than Dexterity. When you make a ranged basic attack using a weapon you are proficient with, you can use that ability instead of Dexterity for the attack roll and the damage roll.


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## Sigurd13 (Mar 22, 2009)

*Ranged Weapons - Small Arms*

*ADVANCED WEAPONS*​Note: Price and Weight are fairly irrelevant, those can always be adjusted to fit the campaign setting.


*Small Arms* - (One Handed)​ 

Pistol - Standard semi-automatic sidearm​ 
LeMat Special - This semi-automatic weapon has an extra barrel containing a single shell round. Alt Fire[Blast 2] uses 2d4 weapon damage.​ 
Machine Pistol - Hand held submachine gun with a wide array of firing settings.​ 
Neutron Pistol - Hand held blaster weapon fires a calibrated sequence of ionized particles.​ 
Sawed Off Shotgun - Large semi-automatic weapon firing large fragmentation shells with a shortened barrel.​ 
Laser Pistol - Hand held laser weapon fires a precise beam of electromagnetic energy. ​ 


```
[SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman][COLOR=white][B][U]Weapon                  Prof.      Damage      Range    Price   Weight         Group          Ammo Type               Properties[/U][/B][/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman][COLOR=yellow]Pistol                         +3           1d6            5/10        25           2           Small Arms         Cartridge          Melee, Load Free, Off Hand, CCT[/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman][COLOR=silver]LeMat's Special         +2        1d6/2d4        5/10        30           4          Small Arms          Cartridge         Alt Fire[Blast 2], Load Free, Melee, CCT, Off hand[/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman][COLOR=yellow]Machine Pistol           +2           1d6            5/10        40           5           Small Arms         Cartridge          Melee, Alt Fire[Spray, L.Burst], Load Free, Off Hand, CCT[/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE]
[COLOR=silver][SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]Neutron [/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR][SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman][COLOR=silver]Pistol            +3           1d8            5/10        40          4           Small Arms      Fission Core        Melee, Alt Fire[L.Burst], Load Free, CCT[/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman][COLOR=yellow]Sawed Off Shotgun   +2            2d4            3/6          35          4           Small Arms            Shells             Alt Fire[Blast 2], Load Free, Melee, CCT[/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE]
[COLOR=silver][SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]Laser [/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR][SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman][COLOR=silver]Pistol               +3           1d6            5/10         45          5           Small Arms            E-Cell             Melee, Alt Fire[Beam 3], Load Free, CCT[/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE]
```


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## Sigurd13 (Mar 22, 2009)

*Ranged Weapons - Long Arms*

*Long Arms* - (Two handed)​ 
Rifle - Standard semi-automatic long range weapon​ 
Assault Rifle -Semi-automatic long range weapon with a wide array of firing settings.​ 
Sniper Rifle - Semi-automatic weapon with a scope for extreme long range targeting.​ 
Neutron Rifle - Long range blaster weapon fires a calibrated sequence of ionized particles.​ 
Shotgun - Semi-automatic weapon that fires large fragmentation shells. ​ 
Laser Rifle - Long range laser weapon fires a precise beam of electromagnetic energy.


```
[LEFT][B][U]Weapon           Prof.    Damage    Range   Price   Weight      Group       Ammo Type         Properties[/U][/B]
[COLOR=yellow]Rifle             +3       1d8      15/30     40      7       Long Arms      Cartridge       Load Free, High Crit, Small[/COLOR]
[COLOR=silver]Assault Rifle     +2       1d8      10/20     60      8       Long Arms      Cartridge       Melee, Alt Fire[L.Burst, Spray, Blast 2], Load Free, CCT  [/COLOR]
[COLOR=yellow]Sniper Rifle      +3      1d12      20/40     55      16      Long Arms      Cartridge       Load Free, High Crit, Brutal 2[/COLOR]
[COLOR=silver]Neutron Rifle     +2       2d4      10/20     55      8       Long Arms     Fission Core     Alt Fire[L.Burst, Spray], Load Free, Small[/COLOR]
[COLOR=yellow]Shotgun           +2       2d4       5/10     45      10      Long Arms       Shells         Melee, Alt Fire[Blast 2], Load Free, CCT[/COLOR]
[COLOR=silver]Laser Rifle       +2       1d8      10/20     55      8       Long Arms       E-Cells        Alt Fire[Beam 6], Load Free, Small[/COLOR][/LEFT]
```


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## Sigurd13 (Mar 22, 2009)

*Ranged Weapons - Heavy Arms*

*Heavy Arms** - *(Two handed)

Flamer - This heavy spray weapon deploys ignited flammable plasma from a canister. On any successful hit, the target also takes ongoing 5 fire (save ends).

Chain Gun - This heavy automatic weapon rapidly fires huge volumes of rounds fed by a belt.

Grenade Launcher - This heavy, large caliber weapon fires explosive shells and other types of ammunition.

Laser Cannon - High powered laser weapon fires a wide beam of electromagnetic energy.



```
[B][U][COLOR=white]Weapon             Prof.   Damage    Range    Price   Weight    Group       Ammo Type      Properties[/COLOR][/U][/B]
[COLOR=yellow]Flamer              +2      2d6       3/6       65     60     Heavy Arms      Fuel        Melee, Alt Fire[Blast 2], Empty 6[/COLOR]   
[COLOR=silver]Chain Gun           +2      2d6       5/10      75     50     Heavy Arms    Cartridge     Melee, Alt Fire[Spray], Empty 6[/COLOR]   
[COLOR=yellow]Grenade Launcher    +2      1d12      10/20     75     10     Heavy Arms    Explosive     Melee, Alt Fire[Burst 1], Load Free [/COLOR]
[COLOR=silver]Laser Cannon        +2      1d10      5/10      65     15     Heavy Arms     E-Cells      Melee, Alt Fire[Blast 2, Beam 8], Load Free[/COLOR]
```


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## Sigurd13 (Mar 22, 2009)

*Melee Weapons*

*MELEE WEAPONS*​ 
*--One Handed**--*

Power Fists (pair) - A pair of mechanical gauntlets that augment wielder’s speed and striking power. The pair counts as wielding two weapons. 

Kinetic Sledge - A small, very light hammer containing internal mechanisms that stores kinetic energy and releases it upon striking.

Glow Rod - Small mace or club that delivers an electrical charge. The electrical current can be set to stun enemies. 

Ripper (Chain dagger) - A small dagger sized blade lined with a chain set with extremely sharp serrated blades and powered by a powerful electric motor. 

Lacerator (Chain Sword) - A medium sized blade lined with a chain set with extremely sharp serrated blades and powered by a powerful electric motor. 



```
[B][U]Weapon              Prof.      Damage      Range    Price    Weight       Group            Properties[/U][/B]  
[COLOR=yellow]Power Fists (pair)    +3         1d8          -       20        4         Unarmed       Off Hand, High Crit, Brutal 1  [/COLOR]
[COLOR=silver]Kinetic Sledge        +2         2d6          -       35        8         Hammer        Versatile, High Crit  [/COLOR]
[COLOR=yellow]Glow Rod              +2    2d4 Lightning     -       40        8          Mace         Versatile, Alt Fire [Taze], Load Free  [/COLOR]
[COLOR=silver]Ripper                +3         1d10         -       50        5       Heavy Blade     Off Hand, Versatile, High Crit[/COLOR]
[COLOR=yellow]Lacerator             +2         1d12         -       60        6       Heavy Blade     Brutal 2, High Crit [/COLOR]
```
*--Two Handed--*

Chainsaw - Large flat blade lined with a chain set with extremely sharp serrated blades and powered by a large, combustion motor.

Arc Fork - Long pole ending with two prongs carrying an electrical charge. The electrical current can be set to stun enemies. 


```
[B][U]Weapon          Prof.      Damage      Range    Price    Weight       Group              Properties[/U][/B]  
[COLOR=yellow]Chain Saw         +2         2d8          -       50        7       Heavy Blade      High Crit, Empty 6   [/COLOR]
[COLOR=silver]Arc Fork          +2     2d4 Lightning    -       50        9     Polearm, Spear     Reach, Alt Fire [Taze], Load Free  [/COLOR]
```
*--Vibro-Blades--*

Vibro-blades are masterwork weapons with a small subsonic generator inlaid in the hilt or handle. The blade is specially redesigned to acoustically amplify sound waves, often times made from materials with a high resonant acoustic integrity. The generator produces an extremely high frequency soundwave which is amplified during passage through the material of the weapon itself. The end result is a blade that vibrates at extremely high frequencies on a subatomic level- greatly enhancing the blade's cutting power. 

Virtually any non-advanced, slashing, melee blade can be modified to become a vibro-blade given the knowledge, skill, parts and tools to do so. 

The cost of modification is half the base weapon's market value + 360gp for additional resources, tools and materials. This cost is in addition to the market value of the weapon.

Vibro-Blade Template:
Prof: base weapon Proficiency +1
Cost: 360gp + 150% base weapon market value ([market value x 1.5]+360gp)
Properties: Gains High Crit. If base weapon is already High Crit, double bonus damage.
Gains Brutal 1. If base weapon is already Brutal, add +1 to the Brutal Modifier.

Examples:

```
[COLOR=white][B][U]Weapon                   Prof.    Damage    Range    Price    Weight      Group                    Properties[/U][/B][/COLOR]
[COLOR=yellow]Vibro-Execution Axe       +3       1d12       -       405       14         Axe               High Crit (2), Brutal 3[/COLOR]
[COLOR=silver]Vibro-Dagger              +4       1d4       5/10     362        1      Light Blade          High Crit, Brutal 1, Off- hand, Light Thrown[/COLOR]
[COLOR=white][COLOR=yellow]Flaming Vibro-Longsword   +4       1d8        -      1860        4      Heavy Blade          High Crit, Brutal 1, Versatile[/COLOR]  [/COLOR]
[COLOR=silver]Vibro-Double Sword        +4      1d8/1d8     -       420        9    Heavy, Light Blade     High Crit, Brutal 1, Defensive, Off Hand [/COLOR]
```


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## Alex319 (Mar 23, 2009)

I'm a little confused. Why do your ranged weapons say "Load Free" if the rules under "Reloading" say loading is a minor action?

Also, your "sawed off shotgun" fires in a "burst 2", which is a 5x5 square area, larger even than the blast radius of a grenade. Are you sure you don't mean "blast 2" here?


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## Sigurd13 (Mar 23, 2009)

Alex319 said:


> Also, your "sawed off shotgun" fires in a "burst 2", which is a 5x5 square area, larger even than the blast radius of a grenade. Are you sure you don't mean "blast 2" here?




Typo! Thanks for catching it!



Alex319 said:


> I'm a little confused. Why do your ranged weapons say "Load Free" if the rules under "Reloading" say loading is a minor action?




Alex, 

Under normal conditions (ie-when using the weapons for either ranged basic attacks or power attacks), they cost nothing to load (Load Free property). This ensures that a player's actions don't get bogged down by a bunch of random penalties just for doing what they'd normally do with a sword, dagger or crossbow. 

However, if a character were going to use the special powers that make the gun what it is (the alt fire capabilities) then it was necessary to have a cost to use it for balance sake. I chose to force the character to spend a combat action. 



I did this so that a player who chose to use firearms could do so without being penalized just for wanting to imagine a character with two pistols instead of two daggers. This is also why I elected to keep the damage output similar to normal weapons. For all intents and purposes, these guns should seem little more than daggers or bows or javelins that have been 'reskinned' to look like guns.

However, to just say to the characters "well, if you want a gun, just use a crossbow and we'll say it's a gun" isn't enough. There are certain things that a gun can do that a crossbow can't; it doesn't have to be loaded every round, it has multiple firing modes, it's damage and properties are different, etc. 

So I chose to add the alt fire[] properties to guns. But as you can see, some of them are fairly powerful... more powerful than some at will abilities. And for that there had to be a balancing factor. So, in exchange for getting a different attack with a different attack type and different properties, you must (at some point) spend a minor action before using the weapon again.  

This way, the character sacrifices nothing to use the gun as is... but it costs them something to use the extra abilities. After all, there are several other key powers that rely on minor actions (healing powers, fighter's mark, hunter's quarry, etc) and so the character has to choose whether to use these powers or use the alt fire on a weapon. This seems to be in keeping with the central theme of 4e, that is, resource management. 



*Short Answer:* The only time the player has to spend a minor action to _reload _is after using the alt fire capability. Until the weapon is _reloaded_ by using the Reload combat action (and spending the minor action to do so) the player cannot attack, use powers, take immediate actions, basic attack actions, opportunity attacks, or any other action _that involves attacking with the weapon_. Otherwise, loading is a free action.

This was done to make guns accessible and comparable to regular weapons (which should hopefully be incentive enough for characters to try them) while providing extra 'oomph' for a small price, preventing overuse and abuse (hopefully!).

Hopefully that clears up the confusion some?


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## Keia (Apr 3, 2009)

I like what I see here.  I hadn't thought to make powers as weapon features or properties to simulate the different firing techniques.

I've been working through a system to convert a Stargate game that I've had on the back burner for a while to 4e (I mean, seriously, Jaffa just scream Minion to me at times ).

Keia


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## Sigurd13 (Apr 5, 2009)

*Many Thanks*



Keia said:


> I like what I see here. I hadn't thought to make powers as weapon features or properties to simulate the different firing techniques.




Thank you very much for the positive feedback! I felt pretty excited by the concept when it hit me...now I just need it play tested.

My main inspiration for the design was trying to make the weapon stats and usage as comparable to normal weapons as possible. I didn't want my players to read the entries and feel encumbered by the rules, nor did I want the weapon damage to be so superior that it made the old weapons obsolete. 

Of course, the weapons _are _different than standard weapons because of the properties and alt fire powers, but these are optional. If a character wanted, they could use _*most*_ of these weapons as they would any other weapon, and never use the extra fluff.

I'm glad that this idea was helpful to you! ^_^




Keia said:


> I've been working through a system to convert a Stargate game that I've had on the back burner for a while to 4e (I mean, seriously, Jaffa just scream Minion to me at times ).




Absolutely! I'm not _extremely_ familiar with Stargate, but I'm sure the same technique could be used to make blasting staffs (do they have a proper name?) and those stinger guns and such. Open a new thread when you're ready and I'll be glad to provide you with feedback of your own.


*As a side note*: Recognize this quote? "Here's some advice from an old tracker. You wanna find something? Use your eyes."  ^_~


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## Sigurd13 (Apr 9, 2009)

Sorry for the blatant self promotion, but I hoped I could get some further feedback on these weapons. My introduction of these items into the game won't be for a while, but I'd rather get the feedback before the thread disappears into the quagmire of "page 13 obscurity."


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## illathid (May 7, 2009)

These look pretty good. Any chance we could get a couple more futuristic weapons? I'd love to see some Lasrifles, maybe even a Chainsword to go with the Ripper.

As you've might've been able to guess, i'm trying to make a 4e Dark Heresy crossover. And your weapons have seemed like the best ones I've seen so far.


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## Sigurd13 (May 7, 2009)

illathid said:


> These look pretty good. Any chance we could get a couple more futuristic weapons? I'd love to see some Lasrifles, maybe even a Chainsword to go with the Ripper.
> 
> As you've might've been able to guess, i'm trying to make a 4e Dark Heresy crossover. And your weapons have seemed like the best ones I've seen so far.




Firstly, thanks for the compliment! As for your ideas on other futuristic weapons, I'll see what I can come up with. 

Did you have anything specific in mind, besides chainswords and laser rifles? Do you have some links to some Dark Heresy materials so I can get a better feel for the setting? 

I'll update when I can!


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## illathid (May 7, 2009)

Sigurd13 said:


> Firstly, thanks for the compliment! As for your ideas on other futuristic weapons, I'll see what I can come up with.
> 
> Did you have anything specific in mind, besides chainswords and laser rifles? Do you have some links to some Dark Heresy materials so I can get a better feel for the setting?
> 
> I'll update when I can!



Well Dark heresy is a Warhammer 40k RPG, so if your familiar with that setting at all the armaments available are all fairly consistant. You could also go here to check out for more information on the different weapons available:

Main Page - Lexicanum

Anywasy, I should go to bed. But I'll check back regularly, and maybe even comment more on the rules. Thanks for the quick reply.


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## Sigurd13 (May 11, 2009)

Sorry for not posting sooner... I've been pretty busy with work and I've been sleeping more to catch up. I'm also fiddling with updating the look of the thread as well. Hopefully next week I should have some new weapons up. 

I'm planning on adding a template for Vibroblades, a medium sized chainblade (think of the ripper as a mechanized short sword and the chainsaw as a broadsword), two reach weapons, beam weapons (still writing the associated alt fire property) and several weapons that possess an area or close firing mode by default (ie rocket launcher). 

I've also got a list of alternative ammo and accessories coming up. So stay tuned!


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## Sigurd13 (May 17, 2009)

Sorry for taking so long to update! It takes a LONG time to format those tables (a lot of tinkering with spaces. (Does someone have a neat trick for tabs and alignments in html?) And I've been sort of grappling with a couple new weapon ideas and modes of fire that don't seem 'finished' yet. For example, I'm not totally satisfied with the Beam alt fire capability yet... it seems too close to the Spray firing mode... and I feel as though using an area effect to target a ranged attack is a little clunky. 

Ideally I *ought* to invent new types of area attacks (cone, arc, etc) but that's REALLY going against my philosophy of 'low impact' rule creation. Of course, you can hardly say that adding futuristic weapons to a fantasy setting is low impact. 
I guess that must make me some sort of hypocrite. LOL ^_^

Thoughts?


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## turk128 (May 19, 2009)

Browsing through this, I really like what I see: you have a solid basis for something here, more so than any sci-fi 4e write-up I've read.

Some suggestions...


Sigurd13 said:


> *_______Taze_______*
> _Your weapon discharges electricity, dazing the target._
> *At-Will **Weapon*
> *Standard Action Melee *weapon
> ...



Some change to make it flow a little better:
*Hit: *Half[1w] damage and the target is slowed until the end of your next turn. If target is already slowed, target is dazed instead. If target is already dazed, target goes unconscious (save ends). 

Also, more things should expand the minor action to force the player to really think strategically with how they use their minor (or converting their move):

*Guns that have high proficiency... instead of giving that high prof in the stat, leave it at +2 and give it a property.
Careful Aim: Minor Action
You gain a +1 power bonus to attack with this weapon for the first attack you make with it, before the end of your next turn.

*Stabilizing... for *Long Burst, Spray, or **Burst *add this: after use, receive a -2 to hit with this weapon until a minor action is used to stabilize.

*Range Finding: Minor Action
You increase the range of this weapon by 5 squares for the first attack you make with it, before the end of your next turn.

*Aim Assist: Minor Action
This weapon gains the Brutal 1 property for the first attack you make with it, before the end of your next turn.


Instead of reloading for everything... put something like this in:
Alt Fire Switch: Minor Action
You swap this weapon into Alt Fire mode. If the Weapon is already in Alt Fire mode, the weapon switches into Nomal Fire mode. Alt Fire mode can only be used for basic attacks. You cannot use a weapon in Alt Fire mode with any Class' At-Will, Encounter, Utility or Daily powers.
(This way it forces the player to use the weapon's powers or their own... unless they somehow have cool powers that allow them to use weapon's Alt Fire.)

Also, some of the Weapon Properties are way powerful. Spray should be the only one that counts as a ranged basic. Spray can be buffed a little more: make the secondary attack autohit.


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## illathid (May 26, 2009)

Quick question: Why do some of the melee weapons like the Ripper have the "load free" property? That seems like a useless property as they don't have anything to load.

Also, I'd be interested in seeing how you'd see Bolt weapons or Melta weapons working under your system.


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## blalien (May 26, 2009)

Overall I like.  I appreciate the effort, and I might actually get an opportunity to playtest them at some point.  I would get rid of the 1d6 after every attack.  It drags down combat by a split second (that adds up over time) and only makes sense for rapid-fire weapons anyway.  I think you're better off just keeping track of ammo, or ignoring it all together.

I couldn't comment on the weapons themselves until I get a chance to use them.  If you want to challenge yourself, though, design weapons for civilizations tens of thousands of years down the line.  Like, a society so advanced that compared to them we're cavemen throwing rocks at each other.  A few ideas are:
*A device shaped like a paperclip you can wrap around your finger.  Thought-activating the device causes a molecule-thin beam to emit from the end and penetrate any surface.  Useful for cutting holes in walls and people, or for slicing a building in half like a katana in a bad anime.
*Super-hot napalm that consumes anything, even metal
*A device that creates a microscopic black hole that exists only for an instant.  Like the Large Hadron Collider in the palm of your hand.
*And of course, armor that protects you against any of this.
I don't know, work with it if you feel like it.  Believe it or not it would actually be useful for my campaign.

Finally,


> Neutron Pistol - Hand held laser weapon fires a calibrated sequence of supercharged particles.



Sorry, I had to laugh.  Neutrons are not charged particles.  Lasers are not charged either, and they only behave like particles when you know their precise position.


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## Sigurd13 (May 28, 2009)

I keep meaning to update but life keeps getting in my way! Scheduling conflicts and sinus infections abounding! GAh! 



illathid said:


> Quick question: Why do some of the melee weapons like the Ripper have the "load free" property? That seems like a useless property as they don't have anything to load.
> 
> Also, I'd be interested in seeing how you'd see Bolt weapons or Melta weapons working under your system.




The glow rod has the property because it has the Alt Fire[Taze] property. So, unless the alt fire has just been used (requiring a minor to Reload) it's load free.

As for the ripper and lacerator.... hmm... that's a good question Illathid. I suppose it's to reflect the fact that they DO require ammunition (batteries) but it was never meant to bog down the combat mechanics. Of course, that's a fluff reason, so I suppose I'll just eliminate it. *edited*

The bolta/melta weapons may not actually be weapons, but alternative forms of ammunition. I'm currently working on a list of different types of ammunitions (bullets, laser modules, grenades, etc) that will change the damage type of the already existing weapons. That's not to say I can't come up with a custom weapon if you're interested. ^_^




blalien said:


> Overall I like. I appreciate the effort, and I might actually get an opportunity to playtest them at some point. I would get rid of the 1d6 after every attack. It drags down combat by a split second (that adds up over time) and only makes sense for rapid-fire weapons anyway. I think you're better off just keeping track of ammo, or ignoring it all together.




First of all, thank you so much for your consideration! I'm always pleased to hear that others find my ideas useful! 

Are you refering to the 'Empty 6' mechanic? That one was reserved for the heavy weapons which either had 1) a limited ammunition capacity as in the case of the grenade launcher or 2) HUGE ammunition capacity as in the case of the chain gun and flamer. 

I felt these weapons represented two special cases: 
On the one hand a typical grenade launcher has between 5 and 12 shots- so it didn't warrant a load standard or load minor (especially since you were using a minor to Reload). But at some point the weapon was going to require some extra action to reload. 

Alternatively, the flamer and chain gun both hold an extraodinary ammount of ammo, but also use an indeterminate ammount per attack... which also justified NOT giving either a standard/minor load...but requires that extra time be spent to reload the weapon _at some point._ 

I felt the 'Empty 6' mechanic successfully represented both of these scenarios, while at the same time providing for that cinematic 'empty click' moment in action movies. It is these three, and only these 3 weapons (so far) that use this mechanic. 

It's probably more fair to just count ammo (since you could theoretically run into a streak of 6's) but I just loathe that level of book keeping. I refuse to count bolts, arrows, sling stones, bullets, batteries, number of rounds or otherwise. This belief isn't helped by the fact that 4e has done away with durations in rounds, lending credence to this philosophy. ^_~

However, of the three weapons, I think perhaps only the chain gun and the flamer are the only weapons truly deserving of this mechanic. After all, how time consuming can it be to click in a new cylinder clip of grendades? And of course, if this mechanic is slowing down your game, then feel free to track the ammo differently. The 'rules' represented here are merely guides- you are of course welcome to use RULE #0 at any time. 

As for you playtesting, that would be awesome! Please let me know if the overall mechanic (the Alt Fire[]/Reloading mechanic specifically) seems balanced! I'm eager to have that kind of feedback! Thanks! ^_^



blalien said:


> ... design weapons for civilizations tens of thousands of years down the line. Like, a society so advanced that compared to them we're cavemen throwing rocks at each other. A few ideas are:
> *A device shaped like a paperclip... Useful for cutting holes in walls and people...
> *Super-hot napalm that consumes anything, even metal
> *A device that creates a microscopic black hole...
> ...




I'm currently working on a suite of alternative ammunitions and accessories, I'll keep these ideas in mind. 



blalien said:


> Sorry, I had to laugh. Neutrons are not charged particles. Lasers are not charged either, and they only behave like particles when you know their precise position.




LOL! A physicist/chemist/hard science major, I am NOT! I prefer literature and the soft sciences thank you! LMAO! 

No, you are absolutely correct! It's the protons and electrons that are charged and clearly a weapon that fires neutrons cannot be a laser weapon. Coming up with a fluff description quickly can lead to these kind of flubs! I've changed it a little... see what you think!

I will say this though, there WAS a semi-scientific reason for choosing neutrons- they have the most mass of any of the sub atomic particles and seem most likely to cause physical trauma. Right? That's sciency-ish right? ^_^




turk128 said:


> Browsing through this, I really like what I see: you have a solid basis for something here, more so than any sci-fi 4e write-up I've read.




Thank you for the compliment and the feedback! ^_^




turk128 said:


> Some change to make it flow a little better:
> *Hit: *Half[1w] damage and the target is slowed until the end of your next turn. If target is already slowed, target is dazed instead. If target is already dazed, target goes unconscious (save ends).



This is definitely a possibility for Taze. I like the continuity of this description, especially since it is also represented several times in the Monster Manual. I had thought about it when I first conceptualized Taze, but honestly didn't like the first condition to be slow. Tazed people are not slow! They are paralyzed! (lol) 
Hmm...maybe immobilize would be better as the first status condition? 



turk128 said:


> Also, more things should expand the minor action to force the player to really think strategically with how they use their minor (or converting their move):
> 
> *Guns that have high proficiency... instead of giving that high prof in the stat, leave it at +2 and give it a property.
> Careful Aim: Minor Action
> ...




Firstly, I think you are right to add more options that capitalized on using Minor actions to make the decision for the characters even more meaningful. I totally agree with that sentiment. 

However, my gut feeling with the majority of these suggestions is that they ought NOT be weapon properties. Maybe they could be options unlocked by accessories? This seems especially true for the Range Finding and Aim Assist abilities... can't you see these abilities as part of a laser guidance system on a rocket launcher? Or maybe as a attachments to a sniper rifle? 

Careful Aim seems more like a new combat manuever honestly. Something between standing and prone, like:

-------------------------
CAREFUL AIM: MINOR ACTION
- _Drop into a crouch and draw a steady bead on your enemy._

_CROUCH CONDITION:_


You gain a +1 bonus to ranged attack rolls.
You grant combat advantage to enemies making melee attacks against you.
You get a +1 bonus to all defenses against ranged attacks from nonadjacent enemies.
You’re kneeling on the ground. (If you’re flying, you safely descend a distance equal to your fly speed. If you don’t reach the ground, you fall.)
You take a –1 penalty to melee attack rolls.
You are slowed.
You can standup as a minor action.
You can crouch as a minor action.
Stabilizing is actually a really interesting concept. I feel like it goes REALLY well with some of the weapons, but having to both reload AND stabilize seems like too much of a penalty... unless I rewrote long burst, spray and burst like you say...I will definitely be thinking this one over.

As for the suggestion to knock down the weapon proficiencies, I'm sorry to say but I strongly disagree. I don't think it's fair to have an entire suite of weapons that only go up to +2. It's unlike any other weapon group already printed. I already took the high prof into account when I wrote these weapons- those with high prof typically lack the variety of extra powers that the other weapons have... and I think that's a good balance. Of course, if you happen to playtest, try it out for yourself and let me know what you think then. ^_^



turk128 said:


> Also, some of the Weapon Properties are way powerful. Spray should be the only one that counts as a ranged basic. Spray can be buffed a little more: make the secondary attack autohit.



I'm not really sure what you mean here. If you feel like the weapon properties are really powerful, why do you think Spray needs to be improved? Do items like Bracers of Perfect Shot make you wary of the ranged basic quality? Please elaborate. ^_^


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## Sigurd13 (May 28, 2009)

turk128 said:


> Instead of reloading for everything... put something like this in:
> Alt Fire Switch: Minor Action
> You swap this weapon into Alt Fire mode. If the Weapon is already in Alt Fire mode, the weapon switches into Nomal Fire mode. Alt Fire mode can only be used for basic attacks. You cannot use a weapon in Alt Fire mode with any Class' At-Will, Encounter, Utility or Daily powers.
> (This way it forces the player to use the weapon's powers or their own... unless they somehow have cool powers that allow them to use weapon's Alt Fire.)




 Second time revising and writing this post! Decided to make it a separate post because it hits on a point that's central to the design philosophy of the system. 

If I understand your suggestion... instead of requiring a minor action be spent after each use, you are suggesting that alt fire be like a toggle- when it's off, the alt fire modes can't be used. When alt fire is 'active,' then the alt fire modes are available _with the caveat that class powers can't be used._ For simplicity sake, I'm going to assume you mean class _weapon_ _attack_ powers (it doesn't make sense that a cleric couldn't use healing powers, or implement attack powers while in alt fire mode). 

If that's essentially the gist of what you mean, then first let me point out that you can't use class powers in conjunction with alt fire powers _as is._ Most powers are Standard Action (except Long Burst) and thus are powers in and of themselves. This makes it impossible to use their properties as part of any other attack. So excluding normal attack powers while in 'alt fire mode' isn't saying anything new. It certainly isn't a new penalty.

For reference, let’s pare down the systems to these short rules:
-----------------
Reload
Minor action with each use- further penalized by inability to attack if not Reloaded.

Alt Fire Toggle
Minor action to toggle over. No further penalties.
Minor action to toggle back. No further penalties.
  -------------------

The thing I'd fear most under your system is combat becoming too unbalanced and compartmentalized. The alt fire modes are pretty powerful- essentially giving any character the ability to use area/close AOE attacks AT WILL, much like a controller can. Not only does it infringe on the controller's role, but more importantly it allows a party to do a lot more damage to large groups of monsters. Most at will powers only do [1w] to one monster. So imagine an entire party spamming alt fire into a cluster of monsters. BIG DAMAGE.

  This seems like it would make certain encounters WAY too easy, for example, combat involving:


 Swarms
Lots of minions
Soldiers, Brutes and other melee units all clustered around a Leader's aura
Tight spaces, or limited mobility dungeons
 In these circumstances, I could see a party just spending the one minor action and then just spamming alt fire. I imagine this would make these sorts of encounters REALLY easy and wouldn’t cost the players much in the way of spent powers or resources.

The rest of the time, I would think characters would tend to;

1) Avoid using alt fire because it’s too cumbersome to spend two minor actions to switch over and back to exploit two monsters being near each other

2.)Just use the alt powers all the time. After all, it costs nothing to use and they’d be ready to attack en masse without having to toggle over. Combat tactics might devolve into ‘spray and pray.’


  Any of these scenarios would be bad in my book. So to balance the power and effectiveness of the alt fire powers, it seemed fair to require an extra action. 
This gives the player’s decision weight because that same action could have gone to Divine Challenge, Healing Word, Hunter's Quarry, or Warlock's Mark. It might have gone to a dwarf's second wind, or the use of a healing potion. Maybe it prevented the rogue from using 'Hide in Plain Sight.' Maybe the player decides to go ahead and use the minor action to do something OTHER than Reload and loses the ability to make opportunity attacks or attack powers that can be used as immediate reactions. And so on. 

  This mechanic forces tactical choices, preventing monotony AND it limits the use of these powers, preventing over use. And at the end of the day, the price of a minor action is pretty reasonable, making the alt fire mode accessible. 
If you’re still not certain whether the players will recognize the tactical aspect of this mechanic, just wait until the first time the Fighter doesn’t Reload the same round s/he uses Spray. Losing the ability to make opportunity attacks (and thus, mark or tank effectively) will make for a very quick lesson learned. 

I may just be quibbling over nothing. After all, the system has still not been play tested. But I’ve been burned by being too lenient in the past. And it is always much easier to start conservatively and then ease up on the rules than it is to start lenient and get stricter to reign in your game. 
Try both and let me know what seems to work!


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## Sigurd13 (May 31, 2009)

Vibro-Blades Added in Melee Weapon Section.


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## Acid_crash (May 31, 2009)

Do you have, by chance, a pdf of these rules for download?  They look awesome and it would be a great way to playtest them by using them against the players by having a strange metallic shaped thing crash land near them and humanoids wearing bionic suits of strange armor come walking out firing these strange weapons at them.

It'd be a lot easier to use a pdf file to print than to copy and paste from here.


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## Sigurd13 (Jun 1, 2009)

Acid_crash said:


> It'd be a lot easier to use a pdf file to print than to copy and paste from here.




Thank you for the interest! I'm slowly working on getting everything cobbled together into a coherent whole. I can definitely work on getting what I have into PDF format. 

Look for updates later! ^_^


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## Sigurd13 (Jul 13, 2009)

*Ammo concept*

Time flies when you have class! Finally all that's over with and I've had a chance to get my notes together and start working on the ammunition and accessories section. 

The Term "Ammunition:"
I use 'Ammunition' loosely here to simply describe items that are added to a weapon to produce a new damage effect. These are divided into types based on the delivery method of the specific weapon system (cartridges, shells, E-Cells and Fission Cores). 
So while weapons with traditional projectiles can be 'modified' simply by using ammo with special properties, other weapons must be modified with special parts. However I assume that these are easily attached and detached and so takes the same amount of time to deal with as other ammo. 


Special Effect of Elemental Ammo:
I've begun with special ammunition. The primary purpose is to allow these weapons to take advantage of vulnerabilities. Thus, I didn't add any damage or special conditions to the effects of the special ammo since it will already be doing some sort of extra damage against vulnerable foes. 
Also it seemed *outrageously* *broken* to allow the ammo to add status effects when most weapons can be fired indefinitely, not to mention most alternate firing modes hit multiple targets.

Switching Ammo types:
Two new combat mechanics cover this concept, written at the beginning of the thread and reproduced here;

1.) *Switch Ammo*, Minor Action
_You load alternate ammo or equip an ammo attachment._ 
Effect: The modified weapon now benefits from the special ammo's properties. 

2.) *Reload Special Ammo*, Free Action when Reloading
_You Reload with alternate ammo or equip an ammo attachment._
Effect: The modified weapon now benefits from the special ammo's properties.

Additionally, during a short or extended rest the character may choose what type of ammo to begin combat with. 


Missing Prices:
If you notice, I didn't list prices as I'm not yet sure how to handle it. Most consumables start at about 50gp (though these are potions)... but then how much ammo do you get? If I start setting a cost for ammo per bullet, then we're back to counting munitions again. Gar! I'll work on that.

Not all weapons can fire all damage types:
The concept that only certain weapon types should only be able to fire certain damage types got stuck in my brain thematically as I was writing this section. I've been tenaciously trying to maintain a sense of 'realism' while conceptualizing these weapons and certain damage types just 'didn't make sense.' After all, how does a beam weapon shoot ice? Or a a regular, cartridged pistol shoot force?


Obviously my grasp on the actual science is fuzzy at best, but I went with my instincts. I don't really foresee a balance issue with allowing all weapon types to fire all damage types, so if the 'feel' or setting of your game don't require my sense of 'realism'- then feel free to use this section as a template and allow force bullets or necrotic lasers or whatever. ^_^ 


Enjoy! Next up is new explosives ammo and new fuels!


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## Sigurd13 (Jul 13, 2009)

*Ammunition and Accessories*​ 

*I. Traditional Munitions* 

--Cartridges and Shells--   
Incendiary Rounds- These munitions ignite on contact, burning the target. 

E-Mag Rounds - On contact, these munitions generate an electro-magnetic pulse that shocks the target.

Caustic Rounds - This ammunition is filled with an extremely corrosive acid. 

Cryogenic Rounds - An extremely cold substance fills these insulated munitions, freezing the target on contact. 


```
[B][U][COLOR=white]Ammo               Ammo Type               Properties[/COLOR][/U][/B]
[COLOR=yellow]Incindiary     Cartridge & Shells        All damage is fire[/COLOR]
[COLOR=silver]E-Mag          Cartridge & Shells        All damage is lightning[/COLOR]
[COLOR=yellow]Caustic        Cartridge & Shells        All damage is acid[/COLOR]
[COLOR=silver]Cryogenic      Cartridge & Shells        All damage is cold[/COLOR]
```
 

*II. Ammunition** Attachments* 

Infrared Modulator - Module that shifts the laser's spectrum such that the laser burns the target more intensely.

Lightning Array - Array modification that allows the laser to fire a stream of electrons, shocking the target. 

Neutron Charger - Attachment that augments the size of the ionized particles, producing a more massive, more forceful strike. 

Electron Phaser - Add-on alters ionic composition, allowing weapon to fire electrically charged particles. 


```
[B][U][COLOR=white]Attachment             Ammo Type          Properties[/COLOR][/U][/B]
[COLOR=yellow]Infrared Modulator      E-Cells            All damage is fire[/COLOR]
[COLOR=silver]Lightning Array         E-Cells            All damage is lightning[/COLOR]
[COLOR=yellow]Neutron Charger       Fission Core         All damage is force[/COLOR]
[COLOR=silver]Electron Phaser       Fission Core         All damage is lightning[/COLOR]
```


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## jdhVictor (Nov 30, 2009)

*Thanks*

Great Material, thanks... this along with the blackpowder weapons I found elsewhere will give me the core of a time hopping campaign I am planning.

Thanks!
jd


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## malcolm_n (Dec 1, 2009)

jdhVictor said:


> Great Material, thanks... this along with the blackpowder weapons I found elsewhere will give me the core of a time hopping campaign I am planning.
> 
> Thanks!
> jd



This also ties in nicely with my tournament campaign I'm gonna start again soon.  Thank you for such great detail in explanations and the work put forward, it's awesome.


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## havard (Dec 21, 2009)

Thanks for posting this! It will be very helpful for converting the City of the Gods to 4E. 

Havard


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## Chainsaw (Jan 1, 2010)

Sigurd13 - I don't suppose you have this data in a word file?


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## Marasmusine (Jan 13, 2010)

An interesting read, I'll probably cannabilize some of this! I had been trying to come up with a system too. This is what I was thinking:

Laser Pistol (military ranged, one hand) +2 prof, 1d6 photon dam, 15/30 range, 6 shots, high crit, versatile
Laser Carbine (military ranged, two hands) +2 prof, 1d8 photon dam, 15/30 range, 6 shots, high crit
Photon (superior ranged, two hands) +2 prof, 1d10 photon dam, 10/20, 18 shots, high crit, heavy

(My damage types are Photon, Explosive, Corrosive, Thermal, Electric, Concussion, Toxic)

The "Heavy" weapons use Strength for basic attacks. Reloading them takes a move action.

I have made pistols "versatile" rather than "off-hand".

I have tried a few different ways to handle automatic weapons, but finally decided to use something like the Ammunition magic items from Adventurer's Vault 2. The Photon gun in my above examples is supposed to be a repeating laser gun, so the only ammunition choice for the Photon is:

*Photon Pack: *9 shots, 30 credits. *Automatic fire:* This uses up 9 shots. When firing on automatic you gain a +1 Tech bonus to attack and damage rolls. When you hit an enemy, you deal an extra 1d8 photon damage to that enemy and each creature adjacent to it that you have line of effect to.
(As the Photon has 18 shots, two packs are needed to fully load it. You can, of course, fire single shots without the Tech bonus)


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