# New Errata & Sage Advice Compendium (Sleep & Trance Are Fixed!)



## designbot (Aug 31, 2017)

A treasure trove of new _Dungeons & Dragons_ errata and Sage Advice was released today, and it includes changes from the 6th [update -7th!] printing of the _Player's Handbook_ that address some of the slipperiest wording in the rules.







For example, previously, the rules never specified any requirement for or benefit from sleep, making the elf's "Trance" feature confusing. That's fixed now:

Old version:

A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps or performs light activity: reading, talking, eating, or standing watch for no more than 2 hours.

There was a lot of confusion about whether "no more than 2 hours" referred to "standing watch" or to all light activity, and whether sleeping was even required.

New version (from this errata):

A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps for at least 6 hours and performs no more than 2 hours of light activity, such as reading, talking, eating, or standing watch.

Old _Sage Advice_ explanation of Trance:

*Does the Trance trait allow an elf to finish a long rest in 4 hours?* The intent is no. The Trance trait does let an elf meditate for 4 hours and then feel the way a human does after sleeping for 8 hours, but that isn’t intended to shorten an elf’s long rest. A long rest is a period of relaxation that is at least 8 hours long. It can contain sleep, reading, talking, eating, and other restful activity. Standing watch is even possible during it, but for no more than 2 hours; maintaining heightened vigilance any longer than that isn’t restful. In short, a long rest and sleep aren’t the same thing; you can sleep when you’re not taking a long rest, and you can take a long rest and not sleep.

Here’s what this all means for an elf. An elf can spend 4 hours in a trance during a long rest and then has 4 additional hours of light activity. While an elf’s companions are snoozing, the elf can be awake and engaged in a variety of activities, including carving a lovely trinket, composing a sonnet, reading a tome of ancient lore, attempting to remember something experienced centuries before, and keeping an eye out for danger. The Trance trait is, ultimately, meant to highlight the otherworldly character of elves, not to give them an edge in the game.

That all said, if you’re the DM and you decide to let Trance shorten an elf’s long rest, you’re not going to break the game. You are making a world-building choice if you do so. You’re deciding that elves, on a global scale, are ready to reenter a  ght before anyone else, that they heal faster than most humanoids, and that they regain their magical energy faster. Such a choice would make sense in a world where elves are the dominant race, where they not only live longer than others, but also recover faster.

New explanation from the updated Sage Advice Compendium:

*Does the Trance trait allow an elf to finish a long rest in 4 hours?* If an elf meditates during a long rest (as described in the Trance trait), the elf finishes the rest after only 4 hours. A meditating elf otherwise follows all the rules for a long rest; only the duration is changed. [This answer has been altered as a result of a tweak to the rules for a long rest, which appears in newer printings of the _Player’s Handbook_.]

Old Sage Advice explanation of the Lucky feat:

*How does the Lucky feat interact with advantage and disadvantage?* The Lucky feat lets you spend a luck point; roll an extra d20 for an attack roll, ability check, or saving throw; and then choose which d20 to use. This is true no matter how many d20s are in the mix. For example, if you have disadvantage on your attack roll, you could spend a luck point, roll a third d20, and then decide which of the three dice to use. You still have disadvantage, since the feat doesn’t say it gets rid of it, but you do get to pick the die.

The Lucky feat is a great example of an exception to a general rule. The general rule I have in mind is the one that tells us how advantage and disadvantage work (PH, 173). The specific rule is the Lucky feat, and we know that a specific rule trumps a general rule if they confliict with each other (PH, 7).

New explanation:

*How does the Lucky feat interact with advantage and disadvantage?* The Lucky feat represents extraordinary luck that can help you when you need it most. It lets you spend a luck point; roll an extra d20 for an attack roll, ability check, or saving throw; and then choose which d20 to use. This is true no matter how many d20s are in the mix. For example, if you have advantage or disadvantage on your attack roll, you could spend a luck point, roll a third d20, and then decide which of the three dice to use. You still have advantage or disadvantage, since the feat doesn’t say it negates it, but you get to pick the die. The upshot of this fact is that a rogue, for instance, who has disadvantage on an attack roll couldn’t use Sneak Attack even if the rogue uses the Lucky feat to pick the die.

The Lucky feat is a great example of an exception to a general rule. The general rule in this case is the one that tells us how advantage and disadvantage work (PH, 173). The specific rule is the Lucky feat, and we know that a specific rule trumps a general rule if they conflict with each other (PH, 7).

If a DM wants advantage and disadvantage to play their normal roles even when the Lucky feat is used, here’s a way to do so: roll two d20s for advantage/disadvantage, roll a third d20 for Lucky, eliminate one of the three dice, and then use the higher (for advantage) or lower (for disadvantage) of the two dice that remain.*Save**Save*​


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## jaelis (Aug 31, 2017)

Here's the "6th printing" errata updates. But see Pukunui's clarification below!

*Fighter *- _Spells Known of 1st-Level and Higher_ (p. 75). The final sentence ends as follows: “… unless you’re replacing the spell you gained at 3rd, 8th, 14th, or 20th level from any school of magic”.

*Warlock *- _Spell Slots_ (p. 107). In the example, thunderwave has been replaced by witch bolt.

*Wizard *- _Minor Conjuration_ (p. 116). The conjured object also disappears if it deals any damage.

*Multiclassing *- _Spells Known and Prepared_ (p. 164). A new paragraph appears at the end of this subsection: “If a cantrip of yours increases in power at higher levels, the increase is based on your character level, not your level in a particular class”.

*Feats *- _Alert _(p. 165). The third benefit now reads as follows: “Other creatures don’t gain advantage on attack rolls against you as a result of being unseen by you”.

*Adventuring *- _High Jump_ (p. 182). After applying your Strength modifier, a high jump is a minimum of 0 feet.

_Darkvision _(p. 185). The definition of darkvision here now matches the definition everywhere else in the game.

_Resting _(p. 186). The text clarifies that any creature, not just adventurers, can take a short or long rest.

_Short Rest _(p. 186). After applying your Constitution modifier to a Hit Die roll, you regain a minimum of 0 hit points.

_Long Rest_ (p. 186). The first sentence of the rule now reads, “A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps for at least 6 hours and performs no more than 2 hours of light activity, such as reading, talking, eating, or standing watch.” In addition, you regain at least one Hit Die when you finish a long rest. (Note this change was not marked out as 6th printing.)

*Spells*- _Moonbeam _(p. 261). The words “up to” now appear in “move the beam up to 60 feet in any direction”.

_Prismatic Wall_ (p. 269). The spell no longer refers to a rod of cancellation, and the text clarifies that dispel magic works only against the violet layer.
_
True Resurrection_ (p. 284). There’s a new sentence at the end of the second paragraph: “If the creature was undead, it is restored to its non-undead form”.


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## Juomari Veren (Sep 1, 2017)

Still not in love with the ruling on Lucky. I think it should parse advantage/disadvantage first, then let you use a luck point, so that you're not spending a point on what could be a crapshoot by rolling low 3 times. It might not happen often with 3d20 but it's still gonna happen, and the original ruling JC gave on this made this feat way too powerful. I see it as the only reasonable middle ground, IMO.


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## pukunui (Sep 1, 2017)

jaelis said:


> Here's the "6th printing" errata updates:



They goofed up. The stuff marked "6th printing" is from last time. The new stuff hasn't been labeled.

These are the only new changes:


*Crossbow Expert:* The word "loaded" has been cut from the third paragraph.
*Long Rest:* The first sentence of the rule now reads, “A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps for at least 6 hours and performs no more than 2 hours of light activity, such as reading, talking, eating, or standing watch.”
In addition, you regain at least one Hit Die when you finish a long rest.
*Find Steed*: The second sentence now reads as follows: “Appearing in an unoccupied space within range, the steed takes on a form that you choose: a warhorse, a pony, a camel, an elk, or a mastiff.”


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## jaelis (Sep 1, 2017)

pukunui said:


> They goofed up. The stuff marked "6th printing" is from last time. The new stuff hasn't been labeled.



Ah, thanks!


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## pukunui (Sep 1, 2017)

jaelis said:


> Ah, thanks!



No worries. I've let Jeremy know via Twitter. Hopefully they'll fix that up.

As an aside, I like what they did with the new Sage Advance Compendium, putting the new stuff in highlighted boxes. Makes it easier to find. Maybe they should do that with the errata as well.


Did anyone else notice there's a new Monster Lists pdf that incorporates the Volo's monsters in with the MM ones? That could be handy.


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## thexar (Sep 1, 2017)

*Luck is still OP*

Luck's ability to turn Disadvantage into Super Advantage is ridiculous. It should simply be "reroll a die."


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## Greenstone.Walker (Sep 1, 2017)

I wonder if Lucky and advantage/disadvantage could be done as follows?

Roll 2 dice, take the highest or lowest, as appropriate. Spend a luck point to roll two more dice and take the highest/lowest and then pick which one you want - the one from the first two rolls or the one from the second two rolls.


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## Sword of Spirit (Sep 1, 2017)

The easiest way is just to roll your normal roll with advantage/disadvantage. Now you only have one roll. Add another with Lucky, and choose between those 2. This seems like the most obvious and simple way of doing it to me, that I'm not sure why they didn't have it work that way.


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## Psikerlord# (Sep 1, 2017)

buda said:


> Luck's ability to turn Disadvantage into Super Advantage is ridiculous. It should simply be "reroll a die."




Yeah, the ruling is very just.. dumb really.


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## Cap'n Kobold (Sep 1, 2017)

Psikerlord# said:


> Yeah, the ruling is very just.. dumb really.



It makes sense thematically: succeeding by luck even where the odds are stacked against you.
In terms of power level, if its an issue at a table, then there have been some pretty good suggestions in this thread and earlier ones about watering it down to whatever level you consider appropriate..


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## CapnZapp (Sep 1, 2017)

I would like a commentary to each change, explaining what changed, why it changed, what the previous wording could lead to, and generally how the change was necessary.


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## CapnZapp (Sep 1, 2017)

I find the new wordings incredibly confusing:



> New version (from this errata):
> 
> A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps for at least 6 hours and performs no more than 2 hours of light activity, such as reading, talking, eating, or standing watch.



So... you must sleep for six hours? Even if you're an elf that doesn't even know how to sleep? And why do I need to do it for six hours, when my Trance ability talks about four hours?!?!

And what's this with a maximum of 2 hours light activity? What if your long rest has to take 9 hours? Does this mean the human needs to go back and sleep one hour more? Does it mean the elf cannot make do with 4 hourse of trance - since out of the five extra hours, "no more than 2" of them can be spent on light activity, that presumably means three more hours of trancing?!



> New explanation from the updated Sage Advice Compendium:
> 
> Does the Trance trait allow an elf to finish a long rest in 4 hours? If an elf meditates during a long rest (as described in the Trance trait), the elf finishes the rest after only 4 hours. A meditating elf otherwise follows all the rules for a long rest; only the duration is changed. [This answer has been altered as a result of a tweak to the rules for a long rest, which appears in newer printings of the Player’s Handbook.]



So my rest is done after 4 hours after all?!

Why not simply bring up trancing explicitly right there in the long rest definition:

"A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps for at least 6 hours or enters a trance for at least 4 hours, and performs no more than light activity otherwise, such as reading, talking, eating, or standing watch."


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## jaelis (Sep 1, 2017)

That all seems clear enough to me. Elves are an exception explained in sage advice. As usual, they describe the general rule and let specific exceptions explain themselves.

 If you spent 9 hours resting, only 8 hours matters for the benefits. You can spend an hour total at the beginning and/or end doing whatever you want.


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## CapnZapp (Sep 1, 2017)

Q: Do Elves need 4 hours, 6 hours or 8 hours to complete a Long Rest?

Yes. No. Maybe. Nobody knows.

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app


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## dalisprime (Sep 1, 2017)

The elves do, problem is you'd have to go to Iceland and look really hard to find them in order to get an answer.


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## Juomari Veren (Sep 1, 2017)

CapnZapp said:


> So my rest is done after 4 hours after all?!




No. Your rest is done after 8 hours. Most creatures need to spend at least 6 hours sleeping, and have 2 hours to do something that they can do while seated. Elves only have to spend 4 hours "sleeping" in meditation, and can use 4 hours to do something simple while seated.


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## Caliban (Sep 1, 2017)

Juomari Veren said:


> No. Your rest is done after 8 hours. Most creatures need to spend at least 6 hours sleeping, and have 2 hours to do something that they can do while seated. Elves only have to spend 4 hours "sleeping" in meditation, and can use 4 hours to do something simple while seated.




That was the previous answer in Sage Advice, but the updated answer indicates that they've changed their mind, and now elves actually finish their long rest in 4 hours instead of 8.  

At least, that is how I read the updated answer.   Not really a big deal - you can still only get the benefits of a Long Rest once in any 24 hour period, regardless of how long it takes you to complete the Long Rest.


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## CapnZapp (Sep 1, 2017)

View attachment 88122


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## Ristamar (Sep 1, 2017)

It's not confusing on its own.  The wording is fairly clear. Unfortunately, not unlike rules that operate slightly differently from other editions, people are getting thrown off by their preconceived (mis)understandings.


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## JesterOC (Sep 1, 2017)

Juomari Veren said:


> No. Your rest is done after 8 hours. Most creatures need to spend at least 6 hours sleeping, and have 2 hours to do something that they can do while seated. Elves only have to spend 4 hours "sleeping" in meditation, and can use 4 hours to do something simple while seated.




No that is not what the new sage advice says at all.

New Rule
*Does the Trance trait allow an elf to finish a long rest in 4 hours? 
If an elf meditates during a long rest (as described in the Trance trait), the elf finishes the rest after only 4 hours. A meditating elf otherwise follows all the rules for a long rest; only the duration is changed. 

*An elf only needs 4 hours to get a long rest.


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## JesterOC (Sep 1, 2017)

An elf has two options.

1) He can sleep like everyone else.
2) He can enter a Trance and get a long rest in 4 hours.


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## jaelis (Sep 1, 2017)

I feel like the elf trance rule was actually pretty clear as written, and the new sage advice now agrees with the text. 

But it makes me wonder about creatures that don't need to sleep at all, like angels. How do long rests work for them?


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## Bacon Bits (Sep 1, 2017)

Given these rulings, I continue to be happy with my decision to ignore Sage Advice completely.


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## Mistwell (Sep 1, 2017)

CapnZapp said:


> I find the new wordings incredibly confusing:
> 
> 
> So... you must sleep for six hours? Even if you're an elf that doesn't even know how to sleep? And why do I need to do it for six hours, when my Trance ability talks about four hours?!?!
> ...




The elf trance ability is the specific overriding the general. And I strongly suspect you're not "incredibly confused" by it saying you need 6 hours sleep and no more than 2 hours light activity to add up to 8 hours. It of course means just that, and does not require pedantry of any kind to interpret it to mean if you rested for 9 hours that you'd need a 7th hour of sleep. You still only need 6 hours, and 2 additional light activity hours, to get it done no matter how many additional hours of sleep or light activity you engage in.


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## Gadget (Sep 1, 2017)

I always interpreted Lucky interacting with Disadvantage as: Roll 3 dice, pick two, you get the lowest of those two.  That way it is of some benefit, you would obviously discard the lowest dice, but you would still be stuck with the lesser of the two remaining.  Of course, Lucky with advantage would indeed turn into Super Advantage with this ruling.  The new ruling makes Disadvantage become a benefit (other than the fact that you still can't sneak attack and such).


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## JoeElf (Sep 2, 2017)

Here would be a simple way to do Lucky with Advantage (which aligns with the Sage Advice and RAW):
Roll 2d20 for Advantage: if you don't like either, spend a usage of Luck and roll another d20.  For simplicity, you select the highest of the 3d20 [you would technically be selecting the highest of the 2d20 and then the highest between that and the last d20 = still select the highest].

Here would be simple way #1 to do Lucky with Disadvantage (fastest, simplest):
 Roll 1d20, without spending a usage of Luck.  Treat just having Lucky and the Disadvantage as cancelling.  However, you got the benefit of the luck without spending it.

Here would be simple way #2 to do Lucky with Disadvantage (next fastest, next simplest):
Roll 1d20, after spending a usage of Luck.  Treat using Lucky and the Disadvantage as cancelling.  However, you have spent the luck without knowing if it was needed.

Here would be simple way #3 to do Lucky with Disadvantage (more legalistic in original RAW, slowest):
Roll 2d20 for Disadvantage: if you don't like the lowest, spend a usage of Luck.  Keep the lowest die with its value [you are keeping this due to Disadvantage], and re-roll the [previously] higher d20.  Take the better result of the two dice that show now [due to Lucky].

Here would be simple way #4 to do Lucky with Disadvantage (fast, simple):
Roll 2d20 for Disadvantage: if you don't like either, spend a usage of Luck and roll a third d20.  For speed and simplicity, you select the middle result [the median] of the 3d20  [Note that this is not the same as the previous method; it is a slightly quicker but less legal means to an approximate effect, and it still makes a lot more sense than the current Sage Advice].

The new Sage Advice (as I read it) is basically treating the Disadvantage with Lucky as if it were Advantage with Lucky: basically always the highest of 3d20.  That makes no sense.


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## Remathilis (Sep 2, 2017)

pukunui said:


> EDIT: I see that the D&D Conversions document has been updated to v1.01, but I can't actually see anything different at a glance.




Per https://www.diffchecker.com/

Old: Rather than going through the work of full conversion, you may use published adventures from the first three D&D editions as they’re printed. You can “convert” during play using the guidelines in this section. Fourth edition adventures *are *usually amenable to quick conversion.

New: Rather than going through the work of full conversion, you may use published adventures from the first three D&D editions as they’re printed. You can “convert” during play using the guidelines in this section. Fourth edition adventures *aren’t* usually amenable to quick conversion.

Aside from the copyright date changing from 2015 to 2016, there are no changes in the document.


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## pukunui (Sep 2, 2017)

Thanks [MENTION=7635]Remathilis[/MENTION]. I had no idea that site existed. I'll have to bookmark it for future reference.


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## Ibrandul (Sep 3, 2017)

(duplicate post, sorry)


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## Ibrandul (Sep 3, 2017)

Most of these new errata are mechanical corrections and clarifications. But the three changes to Chapter 2 of the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide are pure theme/fluff. Any ideas why these were important enough to warrant errata?


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## Yaarel (Sep 3, 2017)

Is the SRD updated with these errata?


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## Yaarel (Sep 3, 2017)

Out of curiousity, are rules for the Stealth skill to hide now clear, to everyones satisfaction?


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## Blue (Sep 4, 2017)

Yes, both a section that says these are official rulings AND a clear answer that Contagion takes effect after the third failed save.  Taken together that should finally put that to rest.


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## Blue (Sep 4, 2017)

There's an interesting one bullet-point addition on pg 15 about if something is considered magical.  It adds "fueled by a spell slot".


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## CapnZapp (Sep 4, 2017)

I maintain that sleep and trance are NOT fixed.

Just wanted to point out that whomever wrote that headline probably did so after a cursory glance at the contents of the web page...

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app


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## JesterOC (Sep 4, 2017)

CapnZapp said:


> I maintain that sleep and trance are NOT fixed.




Sure looks pretty clear to me. If an elf uses Trance during a long rest. They are rested in 4 hours.


*Does the Trance trait allow an elf to finish a long rest in4 hours?* 
If an elf meditates during a long rest (as describedin the Trance trait), the elf finishes the rest after only 4hours. A meditating elf otherwise follows all the rules fora long rest; only the duration is changed.


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## SubDude (Sep 4, 2017)

The more I think about this, it is starting to make sense.  I started this post in agreement / confusion with CapnZapp.  Here's my current thinking; let me know where I might be misconfused.



Borrowing from the OP, with highlights my own:

New version (from this errata):

A long rest is a period of extended downtime, *at least 8 hours long*, during which a character sleeps for *at least* 6 hours and performs no more than 2 hours of light activity, such as reading, talking, eating, or standing watch.


Original version (unchanged in Player's Handbook):

Trance.   Elves don't need to sleep.  Instead, they meditate deeply, remaining semiconscious, for *4 hours a day*.  (The Common word for such meditation is "trance.")  While meditating, you can dream after a fashion; such dreams are actually mental exercises that have become reflexive through years of practice.  After resting in this way, you gain the *same benefit that a human does from 8 hours of sleep*. 


New explanation from the updated Sage Advice Compendium:

Does the Trance trait allow an elf to finish a long rest in 4 hours? If an elf meditates during a long rest (as described in the Trance trait), the elf finishes the rest after only 4 hours. A meditating elf otherwise follows all the rules for a long rest; only the duration is changed. [This answer has been altered as a result of a tweak to the rules for a long rest, which appears in newer printings of the Player’s Handbook.]



So, if a human sleeps for 8 hours, he has fully met the requirements of a Long Rest.  

Thus, if an elf's Trance grants this exact same benefit, then a 4-hour trance also fully meets the requirements of a Long Rest.


This COULD have been included in the new definition of a Long Rest "...except for elves..."; but I think they wanted to keep away from trying to list every exception in the general rules, and instead only put any exceptions to the general rule within a specific rule.

Unless I'm misunderstanding something, I think I am satisfied.


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## pukunui (Sep 5, 2017)

I've had some clarification from Jeremy Crawford. The latest updates to the errata actually predate the 6th printing, which is why all of that printing's errata is still marked as the most recent. It's like they've errata'd the errata document.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Sep 5, 2017)

pukunui said:


> I've had some clarification from Jeremy Crawford. The latest updates to the errata actually predate the 6th printing, which is why all of that printing's errata is still marked as the most recent. It's like they've errata'd the errata document.




I was wondering about that, since the errata from September of last year was for the 6th printing and has been available since then to download.


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## Li Shenron (Sep 5, 2017)

It would be much simpler to just apply the extra d20 _after _resolving (dis)advantage. 

Then, lucky+disadvantage would be better than disadvantage, but worse than advantage.

Following the sage "advice", lucky+disadvantage is actually better than lucky _without_ disadvantage, which is a nonsense.


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## SkidAce (Sep 5, 2017)

Li Shenron said:


> It would be much simpler to just apply the extra d20 _after _resolving (dis)advantage.
> 
> Then, lucky+disadvantage would be better than disadvantage, but worse than advantage.
> 
> Following the sage "advice", lucky+disadvantage is actually better than lucky _without_ disadvantage, which is a nonsense.




Nonsense, or LUCKY?


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## JesterOC (Sep 5, 2017)

SkidAce said:


> Nonsense, or LUCKY?



It does remind me of the character in wheel of Time. He had amazing luck, if he was about to get stabbed the best thing for him to do was to throw chaos into the mix. Since chaos situations always fell his way, being at a disadvantage was an advantage.


Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk


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## ro (Sep 5, 2017)

SubDude said:


> The more I think about this, it is starting to make sense.  I started this post in agreement / confusion with CapnZapp.  Here's my current thinking; let me know where I might be misconfused.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The one bit that I think is still missed is this:

"Elves ... meditate deeply ... for *4 hours a day*. After resting in this way, you gain the same benefit that a human does from *8 hours of sleep*."

*1 hour of trance = 2 hours of sleep*

And,

"A long rest is a period of extended downtime, *at least 8 hours long*, during which a character *sleeps for at least 6 hours* and performs no more than 2 hours of light activity, such as reading, talking, eating, or standing watch."

6 hours of 8 hours must be sleep: *3/4 of your minimum long rest must be sleep* (or its similar, e.g. trance).

If humans and other non-elves get a long rest's worth of sleep in _6 hours_ and an elven trance is _worth 8 hours_ of sleep, then an elf needs to *trance for 3 hours* with one hour of light activity to finish a 4-hour long rest.

Furthermore, any non-elf getting less than 8 hours of sleep or elf less than 4 hours of trance should suffer sleep deprivation penalties.


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## Azzy (Sep 5, 2017)

ro said:


> The one bit that I think is still missed is this:
> 
> "Elves ... meditate deeply ... for *4 hours a day*. After resting in this way, you gain the same benefit that a human does from *8 hours of sleep*."
> 
> ...




However, the FAQ says specifically, "the elf finishes the rest after only 4 hours".


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## Ristamar (Sep 5, 2017)

People are getting hung up on the "8 hours of sleep" comparison when it's not relevant. Admittedly, I can see why it could cause confusion, but it's not meant to be extrapolated. 

The rules state elves need 4 hours of trance for a long rest (no other rest time required). All others need 8 hours of rest, at least 6 of which must be used to sleep.


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## CapnZapp (Sep 5, 2017)

Azzy said:


> However, the FAQ says specifically, "the elf finishes the rest after only 4 hours".



The FAQ yes, the rules no.

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## CapnZapp (Sep 5, 2017)

Ristamar said:


> The rules state elves need 4 hours of trance for a long rest (no other rest time required).



No, they do not.

(the Sage does, but it's not in either the rules or the errata)



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## Caliban (Sep 5, 2017)

CapnZapp said:


> No, they do not.
> 
> (the Sage does, but it's not in either the rules or the errata)




Oh my god, this changes everything.   They are completely unplayable now.


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## Ristamar (Sep 5, 2017)

CapnZapp said:


> No, they do not.
> 
> (the Sage does, but it's not in either the rules or the errata).




Yes, more accurately then...

The compendium of official rules answers for Dungeons & Dragons (fifth edition) states that elves need 4 hours of trance for a long rest (no other rest time required).


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## jaelis (Sep 5, 2017)

CapnZapp said:


> No, they do not.
> 
> (the Sage does, but it's not in either the rules or the errata)



Just curious, how would you rewrite trance to say this more clearly than it does now? It seems quite clear to me.

"After resting in this way, you gain the same benefit that a human does from 8 hours of sleep."
Is taking a long rest not one of the benefits of 8 hours of sleep (for a human)?


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## Li Shenron (Sep 5, 2017)

SkidAce said:


> Nonsense, or LUCKY?




Nonsense, period.


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## JesterOC (Sep 5, 2017)

Note to remember that in the Tapatalk app, like = laugh. Live and learn. Instead of laughing I just wanted to express my agreement.


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## zedturtle (Sep 5, 2017)

I really am truly confused by the issue. A character (race unspecific) must sleep for 6 hours or more to get a long rest. An elf that trances counts as having slept for eight hours. Thus, the elf has received a long rest. 

In a group with other races, the free time (i.e. the extra time that the Elf is awake compared to the others) is 'wasted' by the fact that the group will stick together. In an all-elf group, the group could trance for four hours if they felt like it, and then everyone would have a long rest (since they've slept for more than six hours).  

What am I missing?


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## Caliban (Sep 5, 2017)

zedturtle said:


> I really am truly confused by the issue. A character (race unspecific) must sleep for 6 hours or more to get a long rest. An elf that trances counts as having slept for eight hours. Thus, the elf has received a long rest.
> 
> In a group with other races, the free time (i.e. the extra time that the Elf is awake compared to the others) is 'wasted' by the fact that the group will stick together. In an all-elf group, the group could trance for four hours if they felt like it, and then everyone would have a long rest (since they've slept for more than six hours).
> 
> What am I missing?




Nothing.   Some people just look for things to complain about.


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## CapnZapp (Sep 6, 2017)

Caliban said:


> Oh my god, this changes everything.   They are completely unplayable now.



I wouldn't go that far, but YMMV 

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Sep 6, 2017)

Non-elves have to spend 8 hours to complete a long rest, only six has to be in sleep. An elf only needs 4 hours to complete a long rest, but all four hours must be spent in trance/meditation. What needs to be thrown out is the 4 hours of trance equaling 8 hours of sleep, when by the mechanics, that is not necessary. 

Even in an all-elf party, realistically a long rest will still need to be at least 6 hours because watches still need to happen if the party is not in a secure location. And in mixed-race parties, they will still need 8 hours for a long rest. Basically the benefit of having elves in the party is that they can stand two two-hour watches, or do other strenuous activity, without losing the benefit of the long rest, while everyone else sleeps.


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## CapnZapp (Sep 7, 2017)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Non-elves have to spend 8 hours to complete a long rest, only six has to be in sleep. An elf only needs 4 hours to complete a long rest, but all four hours must be spent in trance/meditation. What needs to be thrown out is the 4 hours of trance equaling 8 hours of sleep, when by the mechanics, that is not necessary.



Yes, there needs to be a new round of errata, so we don't have to rely on Sage Advice.

The rule needs to actually say "an elf only needs 4 hours to complete a long rest". Until it does, it doesn't.

Currently all the rule is saying is 4 hours trance replaces 8 hours sleep. This means that in games without Sage Advice, it's perfectly possible and reasonable to rule that elves still need 8 hours to complete a long rest.

(Just as it was perfectly possible and reasonable to rule they only needed 4 before, since even before this errata the rules still only said 4 hours trance replaces 8 hours sleep!)

TL;DR: The actual rules have never given clear instructions on how elf trance interacts with long rests, and still don't. 

The devs does not get away with changing a race ability from ribbon to functional (or back) through Sage Advice. If it isn't in the rules, it isn't in the rules.


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## JesterOC (Sep 7, 2017)

CapnZapp said:


> Yes, there needs to be a new round of errata, so we don't have to rely on Sage Advice.
> 
> The rule needs to actually say "an elf only needs 4 hours to complete a long rest". Until it does, it doesn't.
> 
> ...



You don't have to rely on sage advice. It is in the rules. The only true confusion there ever was was because the old sage advice was wack. It was crazy pedantic by interpreting the long rest rules in the worst possible way. 
Now that THAT was fixed they could only interpret it as most people did. Which is a trance is equivalent to 8 hours thus it is the equivalent of a long rest.


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## jaelis (Sep 7, 2017)

In the old long rest rules, it wasn't really clear whether the rest was associated with sleep or just time passing. Sleep was I think the obvious way to interpret it, but the rules didn't force that interpretation. As such, it wasn't 100% clear that a long rest was a benefit of 8 hours sleep, as opposed to, say, getting 8 hours older or something.

The updated rules seem to me to make it much more clear that sleeping is the key feature of a long rest. As such it seems to follow more clearly that a benefit of sleeping is the long rest. I guess you could say it's still not 100% clear unless they say it explicitly, but if it moved from 90% to 99%, that's good enough for me.


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## Flamestrike (Sep 8, 2017)

dalisprime said:


> The elves do, problem is you'd have to go to Iceland and look really hard to find them in order to get an answer.




Word of the new 4 hour long rests for Elves reaching the North Pole:

View attachment 88305


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