# To Enworld martial artists: Hung Gar vs Muay Thai vs BJJ.....



## zdanboy (Jan 4, 2003)

Hello!
As you may (or may not) remember, some time ago I asked what martial arts I should try training......

Most of of those who replied said that I should choose Hung Gar....and so I did.....

I have trained it for 2 months now, and I am very happy with it....the more punch, less kick approach suits me well, and the training really helps me to stay in shape....

Case in point is: I have friend who wanted to start training martial arts too.....and he narrowed his choice to the follwing:

1. Hung Gar
2. Muay Thai
3. BJJ (Brazilian Jiu Jitsu)

He asked me to help him....I am ask you to help me...which one should I recommend to my friend....???

He is quite a man...weighting 95 kg....and height 190 cm.....

He likes the BJJ, cause he heard that it is the best martial art (watched it on Pride and UFC)

Hung Gar he chose cause I came with that idea....

And Muay Thai....let's just say he likes it.....

He wants to choose the best style for self-defense.....so which ne should I recommend?


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## kengar (Jan 4, 2003)

This probably isn't the kind of answer you're after, but when I started training in the martial arts years ago this was the advice I was given:

"Choose a teacher not a style."

It was some of the best advice I've ever received on any topic.

A good teacher makes all the difference. They can also tell your friend whether their classes will focus on the kinds of things he's interested in. He sounds physically fit enough to begin any of them. His personality and how well he "clicks" with a teacher and/or school will matter more.


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## jhanzur (Jan 4, 2003)

90% of street fights end up on the ground.


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## olethros (Jan 4, 2003)

*vs.*

Here's my take on it.

Muay Thai: Excellent standing up fighting, not really any groundfighting or any weapons

BJJ: Excellent groundfighting, not really any standing up fighting or weapons

Hung Gar: Mix of standing up fighting weapons with some gorundfighting if you have a good sifu.

BJJ has been devstating in the UFC type fighting which relies on 1 on 1 confinement to a ring (no running) around and no weapons or really dirty fighting.  Ask this question: Can you use BJJ against multiple attackers?  Can you use BJJ against someone with a weapon?  I'm not sure myself, but ask those questions.

Muay Thai is devestating in similar arena as BJJ (1 on 1 confinement to a ring) but has no real groundfighting or weapons.

Hung Gar will be ablanced mix but I have to agree with Kengar that a good instructor makes all the difference.  Kung Fu will require more training to become as street effective but you will be alittle more well balanced.  You also get weapons training which comes in handy.  Some may argue that training in archaic weapons is useless in the modern day and age but realize that sword techniques can be used with an umbrella or fan techniques with a large cell phone, rolled up magazine,  or pen. 

I will admit that I do study Kung Fu so I may sem biased but I have great respect for MT and BJJ.  MT is as powerful, if not more so, than boxing (probably the best fists only fighting art hands down).  BJJ has no match if it goes to the ground.  

PS-  Jhanzur, where did you get that statistic?  Can you point me to a journal article or AP story?  I see that number alot but nobody has ever properly referenced it.


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## Umbran (Jan 4, 2003)

jhanzur said:
			
		

> *90% of street fights end up on the ground. *




Supposedly, though I wonder who did the research to come up with that number.

In any case, I will put forth the suggestion that folks who choose their martial art for purposes of winning street fights are probably choosing for the wrong reasons.  As one teacher I've had remarked, "If you're here to learn how to trash bozos, please go study Tai Qwan Leep."

I'll second kengar's suggestion.  The teacher is more important than the style.  Your own motivation is more important than the style.  The style is a means, not an end.


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## Oni (Jan 4, 2003)

As said above the teacher is one of the most important things.  


However something else that you might consider.  If you could train together you can learn a great deal.  Having someone else around that is studying the same thing and is a good friend can really inspire you to train harder and push you to do better than you might have done otherwise.  If you two hang out often, then suddenly you are not leaving all of your training at the dojo or whatever have you door.  This may or may not be a factor, but it wouldn't hurt to mention this to your friend.


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## LGodamus (Jan 4, 2003)

If he wants pure Self Defense then none of the arts you have listed are appropriate...... although Hung gar would be the closest of the three.....Also you should consider ONI's statement seriously......if you train in a dojo only about 4-10 hours a week you will never be great...You must train much more than that, however it is easier and takes less self discipline if you have a friend who does the same.....both of you will advance much faster.

Now on to points on each style:
Hung Gar: Firstly teacher choice is more critical in this art than the other 2. also as with any kung fu style it will take you much more time before you learn effective manuevers most of your beggining time will be spent strengthening your body and will.Also be aware that unless you are chinese you will never be taught the most advanced and closely guarded secrets of any kung fu art.

BJJ: First of all I am not putting down BJJ as I practiced it for years...but BJJ has an inflated reputation which comes partly from its practicioners (I too used to do this) and partly from its success in the ring. However, success in the ring is not idicitive of street effectiveness....sometimes quite the opposite. Many of the techniques you learn in man to mangrappling will get you killed on the street or when fighting for your life.

Muay Thai: sport thai boxing has many of the downsides as BJJ in that it is optimized for the ring and not the street, with the difference being it is stand up and Bjj is on the ground, but sport thai boxing is not what Original Muay Thai is....sadly though most of the Original is gone now; as  tends to happen with martial arts over time. One of thai boxings good points is massive power ,though. Many of the techniques you will learn and practice will knock a man unconcious with just one combination or even a single blow.


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## ancient_ones (Jan 4, 2003)

It depends upon your friends  tastes, Would he be interested in a slower more tradition approach to fighting? empty hand and weapon froms of hung gar. Or would he prefer a more excellerated high intensity competion style of Muay Thai or BJJ. Like was mentioned earlier it really boils down to the instructor.


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## Fenros (Jan 4, 2003)

I agree with everyone else when they say the teacher is THE most important. Take Karate in America for instance. There's a notion that it has become this chain store-McDonald's style-local dojo-drop off my six year old kid-type care bear-place. And sadly, its mostly true. However, its not the fault of the martial art style. You find a good Karate teacher and you'll get good training from him.

With things like Karate, Tae Kwon Do, and Kung Fu, they get this perception as being silly out dated regimens that get beat in the street. But a good teacher in any of these style will teach you a version of his style that IS effective in the street. He'll even admit and point out the faults/weaknesses of his own style so you know not to make a mistake. And then teach you something to make up/fill in for that weakness in the original style.

I also agree on taking martial arts together as friends. Personally, and that's just me, I would try to get your friend to take Hung Gar with you. But let's say he doesn't choose Hung Gar, you two should still practice and spar together on weekends or something. Figure things out for yourself. What works, what doesn't.

Not to say style is totally unimportant. Because some have better foundations or more flexibilities than others. But the teacher is important. And what's just as important next to the teacher? The person himself. Or herself. Because, even great teachers have poor students.

But back to your original question:

BJJ I agree is over-hyped. I personally don't judge a martial art on how well it does in UFC (and the like). There are tons of street fighters in the world that would never get on tv that would trounce these guys. But getting on tv and matching up against other fighters (with rules and parameters) isn't their thing. 

Any JJ is good for grappling. Doesn't have to be BJJ. But like the others said above, you may be training slightly to much to one side in sacrifice of another. Best goal is to take something that will give you both. A great Hung Gar teacher should do that. But, I'm not sure how many great Hung Gar teachers there are in the world. Or if any of them made it over to Warsaw. Its possible.

Muay Thai is totally devastating. And street effective. But, its heavily reliant on conditioning and power. Not something you may have as you get older. Why not study something that you can still use when you're 50? Because eventually, you will be. 

I vote for Hung Gar. But only if that teacher is good. One that knows the difference between tradition and actual street application. One who's experienced.


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## takyris (Jan 4, 2003)

I've taken Kenpo for about 12 years.  It all comes down to the teacher that works for you, the style that'll inspire you to keep working at it, and what you want.

I like punch/kick stuff more than I like wrestling.  Kenpo has never been boring for me.  I learned a bit of Jujitsu as a complementary art, but by and large, Kenpo is great for me.

(Side note: Treat cross-training like D&D multiclassing.  Add one or two levels of additional arts while sticking with one primary.  Don't divide them evenly into halves or thirds.  Trust me on this.  Really.  The cool stuff is at the top.  What I'm learning today is as acrobatic and graceful and Jet-Li-ish as I could ever have hoped for, despite the rather utilitarian practicality of Kenpo's early belts.)

What does your friend think he wants?  What does he really want?  If he really wants practical self-defense, then that's fine.  But almost everyone SAYS that they want practical self-defense, and then they're annoyed when their art doesn't feature kicks to the head.  I was motivated by self-defense, but I also wanted a good workout and something that would help me with self-discipline and concentration.  Kenpo was good for those things.  At least, MY school was.  Your nearby Kenporium might not be.  Ditto BJJ, Muay Thai, and Hung Gar.

The teacher is critical.  There are great BJJ people.  There are lousy BJJ people.  Some jujitsu works great on the street.  Other jujitsu, not so much.  Working in the ring is a good predictor of working in the ring, and that's it.  Now, some of the Gracies are just fantastic.  I firmly believe that they could clobber ten guys in a subway.  But I also believe that their martial art didn't determine that for them.  That's just them.  The martial arts threads are full of "Bruce Lee versus BJJ" hypotheses.  The best one that I heard was that if Bruce Lee were still alive, he'd be good friends with the Gracies, and both sides would train with and learn from each other.  A fight between them would lean heavily on luck and circumstance.

Any decent art from any decent teacher will give your friend what he needs.  I think that training with a friend is the best way to go -- that's how I started out, and it got both of us to Blue Belt really quickly.  We practiced after school, at lunch, in the park on weekends.  I made a lot more progress than I would have made on my own.  By the time my friend moved, I was set to continue onward with the foundation we'd laid together.

Anyway, blabbering.  Hope this helps.

-Tacky


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## Drakmar (Jan 5, 2003)

get him to do the Kung Fu... 

then he can say..

Whoa... I know Kung Fu!!!   

Personal.. all the good advice has been said.  But for me.. the real decider would be, do I have a friend I can train with?  That makes things easier.. someone to talk with it about.. extra training on those days you are feeling realling pumped..etc.


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## LGodamus (Jan 5, 2003)

I agree with takyris one one of his two major points...Mostly that people fool themselves on what they want...they say they want self defense or combat effectiveness but what they really want is what they see in van damme movies .
 On the part about spreading yourself between two arts I believe Tak is partly right ,but if you take an art like taekwon do and then add something like chin na or or any combination of forms you are screwing yourself...If your art is a stand up fighting art and you just supplement that with a grappling art or vice versa you are not doing yourself anygood. The two were not designed to go hand in hand and will not mesh well. You should dedicate yourself to the art and the teacher that fit you and stick with it.  For example : You are a kicking style fighter and you try to learn to wrestle by training in that also......you have taken away time you could have devoted to your original art to become a mediocre grappler. Now you arent as good at your original art as you could have been and are not good enough as a grappler to be another grappler if it comes down to it...in short you have wasted your time. Now if you had stuck with your original art you could have had your teacher point out your first styles grappling weakness and how to avoid  playing into them........


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## Number47 (Jan 5, 2003)

aikido

Aikido

AIKIDO!

Seriously, aikido is great if you want to defend yourself without necessarily injuring the other guy. Lots of police take it.


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## Trevalon Moonleirion (Jan 5, 2003)

A teacher can make or break a style--I agree 100%  I studied Isshinryu Karate for 5 years and loved it.  Practical, a decent workout, and the sensei and other instructors all had good advice to give on self-defense etc.  The class was also very balanced--a bit of sparring, some drills, some kata, some fun stuff, some self-defense.


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## Kail (Jan 5, 2003)

I won't bother restating most of what has been said by people above, but I will add just a bit more to the discusion.  With your friends size, MT has some definate advantages in applying his reach and, by his weight once in good shape, power.  MT also has a very "hands on" approach to training, you train it like you would use it.  This is a real advantage if your friend is looking for a slef-defense type art.  While traditional arts work great in real confrontations, the level of dedication and training to really understand and apply those arts is very high, and something not too many people are willing to put into their training.  

  If your friend is looking to compete BJJ is what he should look into.  The entry cost is low for gear, the copetition levels are variable by desire of the competitor and the areas with copetitions are spreading constantly it seems like.  The style offers solid ground work with a varity of technique.  Yes, early BJJ success in UFCs was over blow.  In a tournament organized by the Gracie family, with a rules set they were already used to competing under, the results were as they should have been.  Lately the family has taken some loses because the level of competitor they face is higher than it was in the early UFC days.  

  If 90% of fights end up on the ground it is only because 90%+ of people in fights don't know how to fight.  And, throwing in my rather worthless{research wise} personal experience, all but one of the fights I've seen have staid up and doen damage.  Going to the ground, close grappling is the reaction of many people because they think its safer, harder to get punched/hurt in a grapple.  My pointless point for the day.

  The Hung Gar I would recomend if your friend is looking into a long term style.  It will be something that, because of its depth, he can train in for a life time and not get to a point where all he has left are a few competitors skills and an old man's body.  Plus if you train in the same style, you can push and inspire each other, pull each other through the low points where you really don't feel like training etc.  Of course, if he trains in a different style, you can share what you learn and broaden the knowledge base you are working from.  

  Always enjoy what your doing, support each other and train hard for the right reasons. 

 Kail


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## kengar (Jan 5, 2003)

Wow. It's nice to have my advice about the instructor so soundly validated. 

I'll toss one other piece of advice in one a different note. Read (and have your friend read) "Living the Martial Way" by Forrest Morgan. Probably the best book on martial arts training I've read. Not particular to any style, but an incredible amount of practical training ideas and attitude/motivation for anyone who wants to go beyond "Supermarket" karate/kungfu/etc.


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## olethros (Jan 5, 2003)

*Lineage*

Another corollary to the find a good instructor portion.  Ask about lineage.  Find out who the instructor's instructor was.  If it's Hung Gar, find out who brought it over from China.  If it's BJJ, find out who brought it from Brasil.  Make sure the instructor studied the art for a whiole under someone authentic.  

Also, I've been told that any KungFu school worth it's salt should have at least 18 weapons that they teach.  This goes back to the fact that there are supposidly 18 core weapons of kung fu (I have no idea what they are but I suspect staff, speak, broadsword, and straight sword are in there)  There are obviously exceptions to this rule, Wing Chun I think has fewer weapons.


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## Leopold (Jan 5, 2003)

kengar said:
			
		

> *This probably isn't the kind of answer you're after, but when I started training in the martial arts years ago this was the advice I was given:
> 
> "Choose a teacher not a style."
> 
> ...




i concur completely...you know the style you like go find a school and listen and watch the teacher. A good teacher instructs and talks more than acts and will show you were you go wrong. You don't want a cocky arrogant teacher to pound on you day and night and not give you thought and reason behind everything. mind over body, go and find a good teacher and then startl learning..


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## Darius101 (Jan 5, 2003)

*To martial art or not to martial art*

I have been a martial artist for about 20+yrs and I must say that 
#1 Picking the correct teacher is essential to success in your art. 
It is not the end all be all for getting in the door to the closed door schools however. That requires skill and a good teacher. 

#2 No martial art no matter what it is.....will help you in a street fight unless you yourself train to fight to the point that it is reflexive and reactive not just Dojo style going through the motions for competition. Cometition is different than real life. 

#3 Muay Tai is more of a sport - kinda like boxing or kick boxing. To me it was somewhat limiting in scope and that may have been my teachers fault for that I cannot say. 
About the groundfighting thing- the reason most fights end up on the ground is that many Americans grab and try to take you down to wrestle with you. My experience has been to not let it get to that point. None of my streetfights have ever gotten to the point where we were on the ground fighting. Part of this may also be because of my training. 

Ok out of the three martial art listed and asked about I would pick Gracie Ju-jitsu as the best for self defense here in America with Hung Gar a close second. I have met a number of people who teach that are not very trustworthy at all. One of the best elements you can look at is the lineage of the art that your teacher is teaching you. Where did he learn?  who was his teacher? And did he merely learn from seminars or actually live with his teacher for a time?  
As far as the best martial art goes there is no martial art that is better or worse than any other it is the skill of the practioners that determines the level you can attain in the said martial art. To a much larger extent your atitude will determine what your teacher will teach you and how far you can go. 

Both of my teachers were 30+year practioners of the art. 
Both said not to limit yourself to one single style. You should never put limits on yourself no matter what you do. 
Both were Asian. 
Both were masters in their respective arts and one really didn't want to teach but we talked him into it as a friend. 
Most martial arts places are in it for the money not for the art, I wanted to learn the art and it took me about 1-2years of watching artists before I picked my teachers. I thouroughly checked out their credentials. 

Remember that most if not all martial arts today have their roots in the shaolin temple. Many of the grappling arts such as Hung gar and Juijitsu have the common root of Chin-na. Wing Chun was created to combat this art and those like it. Aikido is a derivitive (but different form of) Aikijitsu. Aikido is the soft side of it. Aikijitsu is what the samurai practiced for many years and Juijitsu became judo when Kano began that art in the late 19th century. I am not giving you a history lesson just pointing out that Martial arts are not all that different, they all came from the same tree at some point. 
There are a pletheroa of books I could tell you to read on these subjects but some of the best are: 
**Autum Lightening By Dave Lowery
Perssimon Wind By Dave lowery
**Akido in America By various Authors 
The Way of the Warrior by Howard Reed
The Tao of Tai-Chi Chuan by Jou, Tsung Hwa. 
**Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere by A. Westbrook and O. Ratti
Also if you can find some of the works of Don Drager those are a great read and history lesson on the worlds martial arts. 

I would list what martial arts I took but that is unimportant to this disussion. My first blackbelt was obtained in 1991.  All a blackbelt means is that you have mastered the foundations and are now ready to learn your art. Chinese arts do not have belts you just learn them. Belts are a big part of American martial arts though.  
Enjoy, 
Darius


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## Darius101 (Jan 5, 2003)

> Also, I've been told that any KungFu school worth it's salt should have at least 18 weapons that they teach. This goes back to the fact that there are supposidly 18 core weapons of kung fu (I have no idea what they are but I suspect staff, speak, broadsword, and straight sword are in there) There are obviously exceptions to this rule, Wing Chun I think has fewer weapons.




Wing Chun has these weapons:
"Bot" Jam Doh
Long Pole - Taught to Leung Yee Tai and Wong Wa Boh and is essentailly the Shaolin long pole techniques. it si actually called the "Look Deem Boon" (6 and a half point pole)

Yes the Shaolin teach 18weapons and 74 styles to their practicioners at the temple. They teach a wider variety than just 18, but the core learning is 18 weapons and 74 martial art styles. Why do you think they start so young?  You have been watching too much Kung Fu the T.V. Series with David Carradine. They opened their doors to Americans for a short period of time in the late 1980's and early 1990's. I was asked to go train with them but due to family obligations and my wife I was unable to trian with them. They Are coming to U.S.A. for demonstrations in the next few months if you would like to go watch them. They will be in Cleveland, Ohio in February. 
Chinese arts have over 2000 documented styles of martial arts and of these not all have weapons. So to make a statement that any Chinese school worth it's salt will teach weapon training is an insult based on ignorance.  Any chinese arts intructor will know his lineage and will refer to it as a family. 
Example being: 
I have trained in Wingchun and was taught by ------- whose teacher was  Yip Man and I am a second generation practioner from Yip Man the last grandfather before Yip Chun his son. 

Grandfather and Grandmaster are interchangeable at times at least with my teacher it was. 
Poison Hands is always a fun thing to learn along with Dim-Mak both of which teachings were hidden in other arts for many many years. Some people did not even know they were being taught these facinating arts. 
Enjoy, 
Darius


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## zdanboy (Jan 6, 2003)

Thanks for all the positive replies guys. They have been really helpful, and my friend is strongly considering Hung Gar, as you suggested...in fact now it boils down to Hung Gar vs Muay Thai. He would like to get some short specifics on both of those martial arts (I do not know that much about Hung Gar, that is why I cannot help him)....so, if any of you could provide some descriptions I would be very glad......

The thing really liked about Muay Thai, was the thing that Kail mentioned...."hands-on" approach to training....he loved that....

Also I have to say that I have also been considering switching from Hung Gar to Muay Thai. This does not mean I think Hung Gar is ineffective, or so...but I love the inclusion of knees and elbows of MT.......some, I am in a tough spot....if ya could also help me choose (remain in HG or go MT), that would be super!

On the downside I heard that MT sparring and training can result in many injuries to the face and shins......

Also, I do not know if I have good physical condtion and weight and height to do MT.........my height is 173 cm, and weight 75 kg....


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## Darius101 (Jan 6, 2003)

Hung gar ---is more of a softer style than MT. 

MT will get you in shape if you are not in shape...actually any martial art will do that. 

Please specify what you mean by effective or let me know what you mean by "hands on" approach to training. 
Does this mean sparring?  Or That the teacher is actually in there working with you guys not on the side observing the class. Letting his 'Black Belts' run the class and only stepping in when needed. 

My choice would be to go with my heart and then do what is fun. What is the pain to glory ratio for you?   Mine was always to challenge myself. Sometimes that ment training past the point of exhaustion....or until I got sick. You will get out of training what you put into it. Training for me was not always fun but it was always a good time. 
Darius


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## olethros (Jan 6, 2003)

> You have been watching too much Kung Fu the T.V. Series with David Carradine. They opened their doors to Americans for a short period of time in the late 1980's and early 1990's. I was asked to go train with them but due to family obligations and my wife I was unable to trian with them. They Are coming to U.S.A. for demonstrations in the next few months if you would like to go watch them. They will be in Cleveland, Ohio in February.




Actually I've never seen the tv series.  I've been studying Kung Fu for a few years. (9th Generation from the creator Wong Long N. Praying Mantis Kung Fu).  My statement was based on that "I'd heard", not it is so or this is the rule.  From what I understand the 18 weapons rule is applicable more to northern styles, but not as applicable to souther styles such as Wing Chun.  Since we're talking about HG here, it was my understanding based on reading that several of the early HG people were Shaolin trained so that rule might be applicable to Hg but as I say, it's not a real rule since there are so many exceptions.

I've seen the younger Shaolin monks perform before and their level of skill is incredible for their age.  



> So to make a statement that any Chinese school worth it's salt will teach weapon training is an insult based on ignorance.




Then whomever wrote that statement was ignorant, but I think I read it in a book on Chinese martial arts that was written in the 60's.  It's very likely that book was inaccurate.  My Sifu has always said that most traditional Kung Fu schools will have at least some weapon training available and that's a good way to weed out the American Kung Fu knockoff school that learned forms from videos and then teach them as canon to their students. (Seen it happen.)


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## Darius101 (Jan 6, 2003)

> Then whomever wrote that statement was ignorant, but I think I read it in a book on Chinese martial arts that was written in the 60's. It's very likely that book was inaccurate. My Sifu has always said that most traditional Kung Fu schools will have at least some weapon training available and that's a good way to weed out the American Kung Fu knockoff school that learned forms from videos and then teach them as canon to their students. (Seen it happen.)




Yes traditional schools in chinese arts do teach some form of weapon if it is part of their tradition. There are over 2000 distinct styles of martial arts in china. 
Tai-Chi for example only teaches weapons after you have been in it for a period of 3 years or If you have shown a 'certain' aptitude that the teacher looks for to teach it. 

I am a 3rd Generation practioner of Wing Chung from Yip Man...I was taught by Kikan Wu and he was taught by HO Kam- Ming. I am 

The knock off schools were a result of a number of things that were happening in the 60's and further propelled in the 70's when Kung Fu and Bruce Lee became the latest thing. There was also a scramble to find a successor to Mr. Lee when he passed away. 
Olethros ...How do you like praying mantis? That art has always facinated me since I saw a demonstration by an older shaolin priest that was living in San Francisco. He was an amazing man. He also knew many other styles from the temple. 
I also saw a demonstration by Aikido masters in san Francisco and that began an interesting passion for that art as well. Unfortunatly I do not have a good teacher near me for either. The praying mantis school here is a sham and the Aikido school here does not teach when I can take a class. 
I also took Taihojitsu (Japenese police arresting technique) from Soke Higuchi.....very hard working class indeed and not taught in many places outside of Japan.  It was an honor to be in that class for 10+yrs. 
Learn all that is learnable ......
Darius


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## NoOneofConsequence (Jan 7, 2003)

jhanzur said:
			
		

> *90% of street fights end up on the ground. *




The two fighters whose experience I respect the most laugh at the idea of ending up on the ground. Their attitude is "first to go down = first to lose".


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## mmadsen (Jan 7, 2003)

> The two fighters whose experience I respect the most laugh at the idea of ending up on the ground. Their attitude is "first to go down = first to lose".



Then I hope they spend the vast majority of their training time working on takedowns and takedown defense.


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## LGodamus (Jan 7, 2003)

That 90% on the ground stuff is rediculous.. In my style which even focuses on grappling our teacher says when you hit the ground is when you start losing teeth. maybe 90% between unskilled fighters. Only people who do not know how to fight will be wrestling in a real fight.


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## Kail (Jan 7, 2003)

zdanboy,

  Greetings, don't know how much history I can provide, but what I know comes from my contact in chinese arts and current instructor.  Hun Gar, if I am recalling this right, originated from the tirger and crane animal forms, combine the power and agressive attacks and subtle and deceptive movements of each form into one fighting style.  Its supposed to be really good stuff, a search of the net should turn up plenty of sites and from those you can most likely find some really solid history.

  The "hands on" part of MT, if its solid and real, will be in the ring, on the mat sparring and working the heavy bags.  You won't see much in the way of forms training and shadow boxing is most likely the only thing you will run into that doesn't involve hitting something when throwing a strike.  Its tough and will test you physically and mentally by pushing you to your aboslute limits and then just a bit more if you let it.  It may be competion oriented, but learning to throw hard hits and recieve them is always good for self-defense, and altering a knee or kick to target the groin is not that hard.
   Hun Gar has its ups as well.  Its an art you will be able to train in for a life time.  Between forms, which can be broken down into application for fights with a good instructor, solo sets, I believe they do wooden dummy training as well, you have a full work out that will keep you in it for a long time.  The techniques you learn will be applicable in a self-defense situation, but will need time and dedication to learn to apply them.  Just putting in the hours at class will not be enough, training on your own is a must.

  Myself, I would focus on Hun Gar and work out with the Mui Tai when time allowed to get a bit of getting knocked around full out.  Getting your cage rattled now and then is good for you, kinda tests your mettle.  I don't know if what I've writen helps you and your friend decide at all, but I hope you both train a long time, treat that training right and enjoy every second of it.

Kail


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## zdanboy (Jan 7, 2003)

Hello again,

I wish to thank everyone, for their suggestions and bits of info. It helped me, and my friend a awful lot....really, I really appreciate it....

Regarding my friend....he is still undecided....and he added Kenpo into the choices....but reading th things you posted gave him a kick in the right direction....I think he will choose wisely....

As for me.....well......MT is out, cause the school is too far away....but......recently I found out about a a kung-fu style named Yiquan. This internal style (I think it is internal.....) has no forms (weird for a kung-fu style) and focuses on the intstict way of doing things......

I also heard it was based on Xingyiquan (Hsing-I).....

Anybody here heard about it? Or does someone know more about internal styles (Bagua, Taiji) ?


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## olethros (Jan 8, 2003)

*PM*



> Olethros ...How do you like praying mantis? That art has always facinated me since I saw a demonstration by an older shaolin priest that was living in San Francisco. He was an amazing man. He also knew many other styles from the temple.




I was lucky enough to find a school that is very traditional.  The man that brought the style from China tests all the other Sifu's regularly to ensure they are correctly teaching the original techniques.  He's pretty well respected not only in American by other Chinese masters, but also in China. (I've seen HK magazine do articles on him)  

Someone once told me that you can tell a kung fu school is traditional if the training is as hard, if not harder, than US Army boot camp.  Mind you this was meant as a joke but it gives you a good idea.

One the other hand, if I had to fight and experienced BJJ or MT practitioner I'd make sure I had a weapon.  Those guys train fast and hard.


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## Drakmar (Jan 8, 2003)

This is a link to a School that tells you about Yee Chuan
http://www.lungchi.com
or 
http://www.qldkungfu.com

I am actually going to check out the qldkungfu school tonight.  I have been trying to find a teacher the I like for months.  So here's hoping.

you should all probably have a read.  (the History section may or may not be correct.. like almost every single page out there.)

As for Hung Gar.. it does utilise both the Knees and Elbows in combat.   The reason why it is not as noticable as say.. MT.. is that MT seems to have a grand total of about 10 different kinds of attacks.  Where as Kung Fu's have a truckload.

o.. and "Tiger and Crane" style was developed from Hung Gar.  Hung Gar was based on Shoalin Kung Fu.  They maintained the 5 elements (wood, water, fire, metal, earth(i think)) and the 5 animals (Dragon, Tiger, Crane, Snake, Leopard).  It is a Full System.. starting off mainly as an external kung fu, and developing into an internal kung fu when you do the Iron Thread? form.  The most well known school of Hung Gar that I know of (with the "best" lineage) is in San Fransico.


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## Darius101 (Jan 9, 2003)

*Taichi and Bagua*

The hard styles always end (after years of training in them) teaching some of the soft style priciples at later stages. 

Soft styles are like a needle inside cotton. They look soft but are actually harder to train in at first (for americans anyway) due to our fast lifestyle. 


> As for me.....well......MT is out, cause the school is too far away....but......recently I found out about a a kung-fu style named Yiquan. This internal style (I think it is internal.....) has no forms (weird for a kung-fu style) and focuses on the intstict way of doing things......




It has to form?  Yiquan has foundations in Hsin-I and Bagua would be interesting to train in.  

Olethros...sounds great I miss those days of training that way since my teachers moved away. I can remember training for 4-6 hours a night to the point I would get sick ...then train some more. That training really sticks with you. My teacher told me that when I learn to control things properly I can fight for 3-4hours against everyone in the Dojo/ School and be invigorated not tired at the end of the session. He never let us see him get out of breath no matter how hard he was working with us. It was amazing to see. My Japenese instructor was also an olympic coach for Japan's Judo team. 
Thanks again for all the info I really have to get back to San Fran or New York ..for some training again. 
I can remember that there was traditional sword Demo going on in the 80's and Steven Segal did an amazing demo for the group..just about 1 year before the Above the Law movie came out. 
Later, 
Darius


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## wisdome (Sep 24, 2004)

You know guys, I am truly shocked that no one has mentioned Jeet Kune Do concepts!

This great martial art (which I just happen to train =)), includes every aspect of fighting. Well, every good aspects anyway. Jeet Kune Do CONCEPTS. It evolves all the time, you can add your own teckniques to it. Because of this, it is even more important with a good trainer. 

It includes grappling, Muay Thai, Boxing, Wing Chun, trapping teckniques, Kali, Penchak Silat, and so much more! This is THE "martial art" to train, if you have the time... my trainer has been training it for like 10 years, of which three years was under supervision of Dan Inosanto. Dan Inosanto was one of three students which were allowed to professionally teach the "art" by Bruce Lee. So you see, my trainer is great.
Yes, Bruce Lee. This was the man who "invented" the concept. And it is a concept, not a fixed system. That's why I think it is the best "art" to train.
Like I said earlier, you don't care about any lousy ****-teckniques, and only includes the best ones, to be as effective as possible.

About self defense... I think that "Kali soft forms" is the best one. It is widely used by the police in Denmark, but I'm not sure wether it has spread outside of the northern Europe. Anyways, it is really a great self-defense, because you can disable your opponents without injuring them to much =). Not as with usual Kali-teckniques, then...

"Be formless, like water..."

Edit: JKD Concepts isn't selfdefense. If the ****** started the fight, give him hell =)


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## Adlon (Sep 24, 2004)

I couldn't agree more, wisdome....

My teacher studied under Ted Wong, one of those THREE you mention, and is listed on the official JKD site. Imagine that, in my one horse town of Ft. Myers, Fla......

Anyways, as you pointed out, JKD is a compilation of styles, which ultimately surpasses a description of 'style'.

Bruce studied just about every style out there. He felt Wing Chun was too restrictive, and non-adaptive. He took in all that he felt was useable from all styles, and tossed out the rest. One style that comes to mind, is Savate. WHO talks about this style anymore? Not to many, but, the low kicks from that style were seen in many of Bruce's movies, you just have to look for them.

I highly suggest one read the Tao of Jeet Kune Do. You'll gett a real mindset of what it takes to be a martial artist.


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## Sir Elton (Sep 24, 2004)

I had some great teachers while studying United Studios Karate.  Choose a good teacher, and put your heart into it and he will get in shape.


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## Hypersmurf (Sep 25, 2004)

wisdome said:
			
		

> You know guys, I am truly shocked that no one has mentioned Jeet Kune Do concepts!




Possibly because the last post to the thread was a year ago 

Wisdome, we'd appreciate it if you don't try to finesse the profanity filter.  It's there for a reason... putting stars in the middle of words might get past the automatic filter, but it's still not allowed.

Thanks.

-Hyp.
(Moderator)


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## Darklone (Sep 25, 2004)

Well, considering how long it was ago... any news which school zdanX choose ?


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## wisdome (Sep 26, 2004)

I apologize for swearing. I just wanted to bring forth my feelings about the art itself, and maybe it was the wrong way, but you all got the idea!

Omg, yes, savate... that is one art I just absolutely love, although it is pretty hard. Anyways, it is perhaps not the most effective art there is, and require a lot of flexibility, but it is really cool. But I would stick with jun fan kick-boxing and muay thai for kicks!

Adlon, is Ted Wong practising JKD Concepts nowadays? I thought that his and Inosantos versions were different, that Ted Wong was kinda "preserving" the art as it were at the time of Bruce Lees death, and that Wong and Inosantos were kinda like "rivals" because Inosantos wanted to evolve the sport while Wong wanted it to stay with Lees version. I am not sure of this though, and I'd like to hear you side of the story...

Whoa, that was one long sentence.


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## nerfherder (Sep 27, 2004)

Two of the things I liked about my aikido school were:
1) only two belts - black & white.
2) lessons were around $2 for a couple of hours.

Basically, the instructors did it for the love of it, not as a business.  I'm pretty sure it was run as non-profit making - sensei just covered his costs.  We were fortunate that one of the instructors had trained under Chiba sensei in San Deigo and another when he was in the UK.

Someone also mentioned about training with a friend.  I'd definitely agree.  I trained with my ex-wife (she wasn't my ex at the time, otherwise it would have been... interesting!), and we used to go when the dojo was closed on a Sunday with another couple of friends and train for hours.  Nothing like having tons of space to throw uke around   .

Cheers,
Liam


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