# Nominations are up!!



## Crothian (Jul 10, 2006)

http://www.enworld.org/ennies/flyer.pdf

Okay gang, the nominations for the ENnies are up.  Voting start s in one week and voting is going to be open for two weeks.  That gives you all up to three weeks to ask questions, go to a local game store, read about these books on the net, and really get to learn a bit more about what us Judges felt were the good books.  It also gives you all plenty of time to second guess us and inquire on how we could nominate these and not whatever you likerd more.


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## Joshua Randall (Jul 10, 2006)

My *word*, how could you *possibly* nominate these products and not the ones *I* would have chosen? I fart in your general direction!


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## EricNoah (Jul 10, 2006)

Congratulations to the nominees, and a special thanks to the judges and the various ENnies coordinators!


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## diaglo (Jul 10, 2006)

Crothian said:
			
		

> http://www.enworld.org/ennies/flyer.pdf
> 
> Okay gang, the nominations for the ENnies are up.  Voting start s in one week and voting is going to be open for two weeks.  That gives you all up to three weeks to ask questions, go to a local game store, read about these books on the net, and really get to learn a bit more about what us Judges felt were the good books.  It also gives you all plenty of time to second guess us and inquire on how we could nominate these and not whatever you likerd more.





is that flyer correct?   

i see some things on there that are... um... out of the clear blue in comparison to my notes.


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## righteousfist (Jul 10, 2006)

*A Category Question*

Er....do the category guidelines for the "Best d20 Product" category take into account that over half of the nominees in this category are not released under the d20 brand? It's just a bit confusing to see one of our games (_Mutants & Masterminds_) in a d20 category when it is specifically and completely NOT d20 affiliated. It's an OGL game. Is this just a differencein semantics? 

Hal Mangold
Director of Production
Green Ronin Publishing
www.greenronin.com


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## Kunimatyu (Jul 10, 2006)

The Iron Heroes Battlebox made it? Yuck. Go Steel Sqwire, though!

I also didn't realize Goodman's Freeport module was so well-thought of.


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## Vascant (Jul 10, 2006)

I have another question, none of the judges even registered NPC Designer so you might see how this does not make much sense....

Well it does but granny is around and I kind of agree with her rules


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## Crothian (Jul 10, 2006)

righteousfist said:
			
		

> Er....do the category guidelines for the "Best d20 Product" category take into account that over half of the nominees in this category are not released under the d20 brand? It's just a bit confusing to see one of our games (_Mutants & Masterminds_) in a d20 category when it is specifically and completely NOT d20 affiliated. It's an OGL game. Is this just a differencein semantics?




That category does include OGL games, I'll mention it that we should amend the name of the category.


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## righteousfist (Jul 10, 2006)

Crothian said:
			
		

> That category does include OGL games, I'll mention it that we should amend the name of the category.




I think simply calling it "Best d20 or OGL Game" would solve the problem, and alleviate a lot of head-scratching. 

Hal Mangold
Director of Production
Green Ronin Publishing
www.greenronin.com


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## Pramas (Jul 10, 2006)

Crothian said:
			
		

> That category does include OGL games, I'll mention it that we should amend the name of the category.




This is how it's described on the ENnies page here, so it seems like it's already the case, it just wasn't reflected on the flier:
http://www.enworld.org/ennies/2006-5.html

*Best d20/OGL Product*
Awarded for the best book using the d20 mechanic. This is open to d20-derived OGL, d20 Licensed games, and products with special D&D licenses.


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## Psion (Jul 10, 2006)

righteousfist said:
			
		

> Er....do the category guidelines for the "Best d20 Product" category take into account that over half of the nominees in this category are not released under the d20 brand? It's just a bit confusing to see one of our games (_Mutants & Masterminds_) in a d20 category when it is specifically and completely NOT d20 affiliated. It's an OGL game. Is this just a differencein semantics?




Hal,

The guidelines for that category includes games that
1) Have a d20 brand, and/or
2) Are released under the OGL and cite one of the D20 SRDs in its section 15.

Edit: AKA, what Crothian said.


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## Shemeska (Jul 10, 2006)

*Like the Snoopy Dance, but eeeeeevil*

*happy 'loth dance*

Very, very cool to see that Planewalker got nominated again.

I'm going to have to take my time before I end up voting though overall, because for a few of these catagories I might have a hard time making a decision. There's some really good things up there.


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## A'koss (Jul 10, 2006)

What?!? No love for _Iron Heroes_?!?

Bah!


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## righteousfist (Jul 10, 2006)

Psion said:
			
		

> Hal,
> 
> The guidelines for that category includes games that
> 1) Have a d20 brand, and/or
> 2) Are released under the OGL and site one of the D20 SRDs in its section 15.




Cool. My confusion was mostly over the way it was presented in the flier. 

Hal Mangold
Director of Production
Green Ronin Publishing
www.greenronin.com


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## rom90125 (Jul 10, 2006)

Vascant said:
			
		

> I have another question, none of the judges even registered NPC Designer so you might see how this does not make much sense....
> 
> Well it does but granny is around and I kind of agree with her rules




The exclusion of NPC Designer is truly negligent, imo.  Vas, don't get down my man.  NPCD is a great product that is ahead of its time.



			
				A'koss said:
			
		

> What?!? No love for Iron Heroes?!?




Seconded.  Register me as extremely disappointed with this year's nominations


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## JoeGKushner (Jul 10, 2006)

A'koss said:
			
		

> What?!? No love for _Iron Heroes_?!?
> 
> Bah!




I'll be honest.

I was one of those people with no love for Iron Heroes. It didn't do for me. Thought it would've made a  good first draft but that it requires a dedicated group of people to wade through the numerous combat options which equal spell complexity. Irregularities in token accumulation, specifics of token acucmulation (or the archer don't shoot my target syndrome), mismatched magic system, lack of clarity in the writing, ton of errata, etc... Good first draft, but best? M'eh.


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## Vascant (Jul 10, 2006)

rom90125 said:
			
		

> The exclusion of NPC Designer is truly negligent, imo.  Vas, don't get down my man.  NPCD is a great product that is ahead of its time.





Down.. *laughs* I am not down..  I don't view it as NPC Designer was excluded, as far as I can tell it wasn't even judged.  I really would like to know though why after I paid the 5 dollars, sent in the 6 CD's with a tracking number and emailed to ensure that they had everything, it was good and entered.. that it wasn't evaluated.


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## KB9JMQ (Jul 10, 2006)

Well congrats to the judges for their hard work to get to this point.
I guess you can take a small break now.


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## diaglo (Jul 10, 2006)

Vascant said:
			
		

> Down.. *laughs* I am not down..  I don't view it as NPC Designer was excluded, as far as I can tell it wasn't even judged.  I really would like to know though why after I paid the 5 dollars, sent in the 6 CD's with a tracking number and emailed to ensure that they had everything, it was good and entered.. that it wasn't evaluated.





oh, i judged it.

edit: i have been instructed to say: "received defective media."


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## andrew_kenrick (Jul 10, 2006)

> I think simply calling it "Best d20 or OGL Game" would solve the problem, and alleviate a lot of head-scratching.




This confused us too (_Lemurian Candidate_ being an OGL product) and I had a horrible feeling that someone had made a mistake and we'd lose the nomination! Then I realised M&M wasn't d20 either and put 2 and 2 together   

Thanks to all the hard work of the judges - and congratulations of course to all the other nominees! We feel a little out of place next to all you guys, I must say


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## Vascant (Jul 10, 2006)

diaglo said:
			
		

> oh, i judged it.
> 
> edit: i have been instructed to say: "received defective media."




*chuckles*  People install it all the time and have to admit.. I don't hear that much.

At the very least you replied, I'll respect you for that much.


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## Alzrius (Jul 10, 2006)

I can't believe that the _Immortal's Handbook Epic Bestiary vol. 1_ didn't get nominated. That book set a new standard for epic-level play, and should have gotten an honorable mention at the very least, IMO.

But other than that, congratulations to the nominees!


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## FickleGM (Jul 10, 2006)

Another hand for the hard work, judges.  Good job.

Congratulations to the nominees, as well.

I love Ennies season...


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## Psion (Jul 10, 2006)

Alzrius said:
			
		

> I can't believe that the _Immortal's Handbook Epic Bestiary vol. 1_ didn't get nominated. That book set a new standard for epic-level play, and should have gotten an honorable mention at the very least, IMO.




There's a few things that folks need to remember when their personal "best pick" doesn't make the cut. Just because it didn't make the cut doesn't mean it didn't get votes from judges. Second, the judging panel is established to represent a variety of viewpoints. One judge may have voted the exact way you would have... but if all of them do, then it's not a very balanced judging panel. Finally, the judging panel has seen all the products.


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## Alzrius (Jul 10, 2006)

Psion said:
			
		

> There's a few things that folks need to remember when their personal "best pick" doesn't make the cut. Just because it didn't make the cut doesn't mean it didn't get votes from judges. Second, the judging panel is established to represent a variety of viewpoints. One judge may have voted the exact way you would have... but if all of them do, then it's not a very balanced judging panel. Finally, the judging panel has seen all the products.




I'm not saying the judges did a bad job. I'm just saying I wish "my guy" had gotten the nomination. Even Crothian expected us to carry on like this.


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## Psion (Jul 10, 2006)

Alzrius said:
			
		

> I'm not saying the judges did a bad job. I'm just saying I wish "my guy" had gotten the nomination. Even Crothian expected us to carry on like this.




Fair enough. But I just thought it'd be good to get my "get some perspective" speech out of the way early this year.


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## d20Dwarf (Jul 10, 2006)

Psion said:
			
		

> Fair enough. But I just thought it'd be good to get my "get some perspective" speech out of the way early this year.




If I was an ENnies judge, I'd take a month off the site right about now.


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## Psion (Jul 10, 2006)

d20Dwarf said:
			
		

> If I was an ENnies judge, I'd take a month off the site right about now.




You perceive, of course, I'm not a judge this year.


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## diaglo (Jul 10, 2006)

d20Dwarf said:
			
		

> If I was an ENnies judge, I'd take a month off the site right about now.




if i were an ENnies judge i'd be...

oh wait...


i'd be celebrating. wooHoooooo... 360+ hours of reading done.


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## d20Dwarf (Jul 10, 2006)

Psion said:
			
		

> You perceive, of course, I'm not a judge this year.




Awww, poor guy, you'll always be a judge in my book...*knocks your shoulder gently*


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## Pinotage (Jul 10, 2006)

Congratulation to all the nominees. Some interesting selections! Well done, judges, nonetheless, and thanks for putting in so much hard work.

Pinotage


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## Cthulhu's Librarian (Jul 10, 2006)

Vascant said:
			
		

> Down.. *laughs* I am not down..  I don't view it as NPC Designer was excluded, as far as I can tell it wasn't even judged.  I really would like to know though why after I paid the 5 dollars, sent in the 6 CD's with a tracking number and emailed to ensure that they had everything, it was good and entered.. that it wasn't evaluated.





Actually, NPC Designer did work, it's another piece of software that didn't work. And I did regester my copy, i used it several times to evaluate it. The others are getting the software confused, becasue they are very similar titles.


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## francisca (Jul 10, 2006)

Psion said:
			
		

> Second, the judging panel is established to represent a variety of viewpoints. One judge may have voted the exact way you would have... but if all of them do, then it's not a very balanced judging panel.




COME ON MAN!  THAT'S JUST CRAZY TALK!


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## Cthulhu's Librarian (Jul 10, 2006)

Vascant said:
			
		

> *chuckles*  People install it all the time and have to admit.. I don't hear that much.
> 
> At the very least you replied, I'll respect you for that much.




Vascant, please see my reply here, and the email I have sent you. We did evaluate NPC Designer, and regester. I have received confirmation from other judges on this, and I regestered my copy and used it. 

Yours was not the defective software that we received, that was something else that was a similar program.


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## diaglo (Jul 10, 2006)

Cthulhu's Librarian said:
			
		

> Vascant said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





yeah my goof. when you mentioned we didn't register i thought you had sent us the faulty product. but now that i've compared titles, CL is correct. i registered your product and used it too. several times in fact.


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## Vascant (Jul 10, 2006)

Cthulhu's Librarian said:
			
		

> Actually, NPC Designer did work, it's another piece of software that didn't work. And I did regester my copy, i used it several times to evaluate it. The others are getting the software confused, becasue they are very similar titles.




I honestly have heard a few versions thus far so hard to say whats the truth at this point, one fact is clear by the nominations though it is clear I am wasting my time doing software and time to take up.. hmm.. golfing


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## Cthulhu's Librarian (Jul 10, 2006)

Vascant said:
			
		

> one fact is clear by the nominations though it is clear I am wasting my time doing software and time to take up.. hmm.. golfing




Nobody said the software was worthless. We can't nominate everything that gets entered. And since it is a panel that votes, any given product could receive votes from some judges and not from others, and not make the final list.


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## Rasyr (Jul 10, 2006)

Shackled City Adventure Path? How did that end up being nominated for both Best Adventure AND Best Setting?? As far as I know, it was just a very large adventure.

Color me confused....


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## JoeGKushner (Jul 10, 2006)

Rasyr said:
			
		

> Shackled City Adventure Path? How did that end up being nominated for both Best Adventure AND Best Setting?? As far as I know, it was just a very large adventure.
> 
> Color me confused....




The City of Cauldron is mapped and detailed with bars, spas, and other locations in addition to having the outlaying reigion mapped with notes and history including the town of Redgorge and numerous ruins.


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## Farland (Jul 10, 2006)

Yay!  We go nominated in the fan site category!    

Congrats to the other nominees.  Now I need to track down the books in the d20 category so that I can do some informed voting.


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## Mark CMG (Jul 10, 2006)

Congrats to all of the nominees!


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## Fiery James (Jul 10, 2006)

Kunimatyu said:
			
		

> The Iron Heroes Battlebox made it? Yuck. Go Steel Sqwire, though!
> 
> I also didn't realize Goodman's Freeport module was so well-thought of.




Hey Kunimatyu, I see your post has been edited.  I'm sure your original post read more like:

"Oh, I see the IH Battlebox was nominated?  Well, despite my dislike for Iron Heroes, or my dislike for the Battlebox itself, or my general dislike for Canadians, it's still nice to see small companies like Fiery Dragon, who are dedicated to trying to make tabletop roleplaying _more fun_ rather than more complicated and who have received a nomination in every ENnies list thus far, have done it again.  However, despite the run-on sentence, I'll throw my support behind Steel Sqwire, the guys who bend coat-hangers into cool shapes, and also are focused on making my tabletop roleplaying experience quicker, easier, and more enjoyable!"

'cause remember - kicking puppies is fun and all, but seeing that little puppy sulking on the second night of GenCon is no fun for anyone.


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## Umbran (Jul 10, 2006)

Vascant said:
			
		

> one fact is clear by the nominations though it is clear I am wasting my time doing software and time to take up.. hmm.. golfing




No.  Failure to be nominated in no way constitutes a message that you are "wasting your time".    The judges have never made the claim that their nominees are the only products worth having.


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## Psion (Jul 10, 2006)

As a minor note, there is some minor errata to the flyer. More details coming, nothing that is going to smash anyone's dreams.


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## mearls (Jul 10, 2006)

This is a very good slate of nominees. Excellent work, guys!


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## Ghostwind (Jul 10, 2006)

Congratulations to Magnificent Egos for their nomination of Galadon. There is some stiff competition in Best Accesory category this year.


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## Teflon Billy (Jul 10, 2006)

Crothian said:
			
		

> http://www.enworld.org/ennies/flyer.pdf
> 
> Okay gang, the nominations for the ENnies are up.  Voting start s in one week and voting is going to be open for two weeks.  That gives you all up to three weeks to ask questions, go to a local game store, read about these books on the net, and really get to learn a bit more about what us Judges felt were the good books.  It also gives you all plenty of time to second guess us and inquire on how we could nominate these and not whatever you likerd more.




Why is *Hudson City: The Urban Abyss* on there? We voted on that last year didn't we?


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## Cthulhu's Librarian (Jul 10, 2006)

As a judge, I'd like to congratulate all the nominees. I'd also like to thank everyone who entered, as the competition gets very interesting, and the quality of the work is consistantly excellent year after year. Being able to take part in the ENnies over the past 3 years has been a real eye opener to the diversity or RPGs, and to the excellent writers, artists, editors, and publishers who work in the field.


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## Cthulhu's Librarian (Jul 10, 2006)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> Why is *Hudson City: The Urban Abyss* on there? We voted on that last year didn't we?




I believe that's the errata Psion mentions above.


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## Teflon Billy (Jul 10, 2006)

Kunimatyu said:
			
		

> The Iron Heroes Battlebox made it? Yuck. Go Steel Sqwire, though!




How can you hate the *Iron Heroes Battlebox*? Not only is it up to ususal Battlebox standards, but it comes with a Cast Iron D20!

My God man!   



> I also didn't realize Goodman's Freeport module was so well-thought of.




It surely was amongst us (see also: *Iron Crypt of the Heretics*)


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## Teflon Billy (Jul 10, 2006)

Cthulhu's Librarian said:
			
		

> I believe that's the errata Psion mentions above.




Ahh


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## Pramas (Jul 10, 2006)

Fiery James said:
			
		

> Hey Kunimatyu, I see your post has been edited.  I'm sure your original post read more like:
> 
> "Oh, I see the IH Battlebox was nominated?  Well, despite my dislike for Iron Heroes, or my dislike for the Battlebox itself, or my general dislike for Canadians, it's still nice to see small companies like Fiery Dragon, who are dedicated to trying to make tabletop roleplaying _more fun_ rather than more complicated and who have received a nomination in every ENnies list thus far, have done it again.  However, despite the run-on sentence, I'll throw my support behind Steel Sqwire, the guys who bend coat-hangers into cool shapes, and also are focused on making my tabletop roleplaying experience quicker, easier, and more enjoyable!"




Score one for Canada. 

Up for some post Ennies drinking again this year, James?


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## Psion (Jul 10, 2006)

I'm going to go ahead and post the errors we found; don't take this as final until you see it on the web page or are contacted by Dextra:


The "Best d20 Product" heading should read "Best D20/OGL Product"
Best Cartography: Honorable Mention should be "Knights of the Grail: A Guide to Bretonnia (Black Industries)"
Best Free Product: The final result for honrable mention was "Temple Quarter: Ceremonies and Rituals (The Game Mechanics)"
Best d20/OGL Product - the Etherscope entry should have been "Etherscope" itself, not the "Lemurian Candidate" adventure.


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## Mark CMG (Jul 10, 2006)

_2006 - Editing snafus continue to plague the industry . . ._


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## ColonelHardisson (Jul 10, 2006)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> How can you hate the *Iron Heroes Battlebox*? Not only is it up to ususal Battlebox standards, but it comes with a Cast Iron D20!
> 
> My God man!




The IH battlebox is one of the only items I have any familiarity with on the list of nominees. I think it's pretty durned cool, especially because of that heavy d20.

Maybe someday I'll get to use it.


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## Odhanan (Jul 10, 2006)

Congratulations to all the nominees, and thanks to all the ENWorld people working on the ENnies!


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## Steel_Wind (Jul 10, 2006)

Honestly - I'm really wondering about the lack of software nominees of any kind too.

I don't care which ones make it - the fact that there aren't any nominated at all (but we see lots of .pdfs and small print run books nominated) seems very odd to me - and well - unjust.

(Put bluntly, software like _Fantasy Grounds _ easily should have been a nominee for Best Product - but *whatever*.)

It seems even more odd given that commercial software accessories like _Dundjinni_ and _CC Pro _ have sales levels & dollars involved that exceed probably 90% of all of the products on the ENnie nomination list.  Which isn't to say that these two products were eligible for this year's awards - simply that commerical software accessories are important products to RPGs.

My main point is not who specifically got nominated or didn't: my point is that *an entire category of RPG accessories got ignored*. I would humbly suggest the ENnies committee create a separate software category on its own next year (with eligibility for Best Product) to address this perceived failure.

Thank you.


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## Crothian (Jul 10, 2006)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> My main point is not who specifically got nominated or didn't: my point is that *an entire category of RPG accessories got ignored*. I would humbly suggest the ENnies committee create a separate software category on its own next year (with eligibility for Best Product) to address this perceived failure.
> 
> Thank you.




We don't get a lot of computer software entered to have its own category.  We can only judge what we see.


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## Steel_Wind (Jul 10, 2006)

Perhaps so - am I'm not faulting you for that.

At the same time, the way ENworld is set up-  discussions of RPG software accessories immediately get banished to the Computer software forum - a relative ghetto - while discussions about OOP products and .pdfs with less than $1,000.00 in sales get mainstream forum attention.

It's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

If you deliberately solicited software accessories with the stated intention of creating a category of awards for it should the submissions merit it - my guess is that you would get a lot more of those kinds of submissions.


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## Crothian (Jul 10, 2006)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> Perhaps so - am I'm not faulting you for that.
> 
> At the same time, the way ENworld is set up-  discussions of RPG software accessories immeidately get banished to the Computer software forum - a relative ghetto - while discussions about OOP products and pdfs with less than $1,000.00 in sales get mainstream forum attention.




I understand.  I don't like that d20 star wars and the other OGL games have there own out of the way forum while non d20 games get the main forum.  Some of the ways the forums are divided up is a bit odd.  



> If you deliberately solicited software accessories with the stated intention of creating a category of awards for it should the submissions merit it - my guess is that you would get a lot more of those kinds of submissions.




I'll make sure the heads of the ENnies see this for next year; it is a good idea.  All we can do is hope to improve each year.  Thanks.


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## Plane Sailing (Jul 10, 2006)

Very interesting list. I see a number of products which I've never heard of(!) and many which are unfamiliar. Some of the ones that I expected are there (Spycraft 2.0, M&M 2e), the only one which I'd thought might be there that wasn't is True20, which I think has the potential to be a real gateway to new genres of OGL roleplaying. Time will tell on that one!

Well done for getting it to this stage guys, I look forward for the voting to begin!

Cheers


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## Cthulhu's Librarian (Jul 10, 2006)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> (Put bluntly, software like _Fantasy Grounds _ easily should have been a nominee for Best Product - but *whatever*.)





We can only judge what we see, and Fantasy Grounds was not entered this year.


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## JVisgaitis (Jul 10, 2006)

Just want to send out a thanks to all the judges for all of their hard work and congratulate all of the nominees from everyone here at The Inner Circle. This is the one time of the year when everyone seems to be happy on the forums as everyone looks forward to Gencon. There have been a lot of negative threads on here in the past few weeks (the first page is rife wth them), so its especially nice to see some jovial posts again. See you at the ceremony!


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## Turjan (Jul 11, 2006)

Congrats to the nominees!

Does the webpage look like this for anyone else?


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## Fiery James (Jul 11, 2006)

Pramas said:
			
		

> Score one for Canada.
> 
> Up for some post Ennies drinking again this year, James?





Definately.  In all seriousness, that was the highlight of my GenCon last year.


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## Eosin the Red (Jul 11, 2006)

Thanks guys!

Pencil Pushers got honorable mention and there was some really fine stuff put out this year. I can only imagine how time consuming the selection process became. The judges did a stellar job!


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## Swamp Druid (Jul 11, 2006)

Are WOTC products not eligible for this? 

I'm just wondering because I didn't see Fiendish Codex listed as one of the monster books.


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## Turjan (Jul 11, 2006)

Swamp Druid said:
			
		

> Are WOTC products not eligible for this?



A product has to be sent in by the publisher in order to be eligible. No product - no nomination.


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## The Serge (Jul 11, 2006)

Dicefreaks is honored by the nomination.  Even if our name continues to be misspelled.


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## Cthulhu's Librarian (Jul 11, 2006)

Turjan said:
			
		

> Does the webpage look like this for anyone else?




You are using Firefox, aren't you? I notioced that as well, and mentioned it to Dextra, our web designer.


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## Turjan (Jul 11, 2006)

Cthulhu's Librarian said:
			
		

> You are using Firefox, aren't you? I notioced that as well, and mentioned it to Dextra, our web designer.



Yes, I do. And thanks .


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Jul 11, 2006)

Congrats to all of the nominees!  Best of luck in the voting!

And a big thanks to all of the judges!  I saw diaglo's big pile of products to judge, and I'm glad that I didn't have the job ... too much stuff, and too many good products to make the hard choices.

I do think, having seen the wide range of submission for the Accessories categories, that perhaps next year there should be some consideration to expanding the Accessories into multiple sub-categories (Minis, Software, general accessories, for example).


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## Psion (Jul 11, 2006)

Turjan said:
			
		

> A product has to be sent in by the publisher in order to be eligible. No product - no nomination.




Not to mention it just came out... it would have missed the window.

So if you beg them to enter next year, who knows?


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## Dextra (Jul 11, 2006)

Vascant said:
			
		

> Down.. *laughs* I am not down..  I don't view it as NPC Designer was excluded, as far as I can tell it wasn't even judged.  I really would like to know though why after I paid the 5 dollars, sent in the 6 CD's with a tracking number and emailed to ensure that they had everything, it was good and entered.. that it wasn't evaluated.




email sent.


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## Dextra (Jul 11, 2006)

*A few comments*

A couple of inconsistencies made it through to both the flyer and the web site- it was 2am when I finished them.  As publishers get back to me with their booth numbersfor Gen Con Indy, product sample links and cover images, I'll be updating the flyer as well as the web site.  

Also, please everyone be advised I do have a day job, so can only make changes either before I leave in the morning (6am), or when I get back from work and evening commitments (9pm), so it may take up to 48 hours for corrections to be made, for which I apologize.

As for some of the other comments:

-The category is Best d20/d20 OGL.  Category description reads: "Awarded for the best book using the d20 mechanic. This is open to d20-derived OGL, d20 Licensed games, and products with special D&D licenses."  I've amended the title on the flyer.

-Expanding the Aid/Accessory category: there was already a mechanic in place to accommodate splitting the category- if sufficient entries (as a general rule, 9 from at least six different publishers) were received of a given kind, say software, miniatures, etc, they could be split from the main category provided it wouldn't gut the parent category.

-The web site: I couldn't upload the latest version until after I had confirmation that Russ had made the announcement on the front page of EN World: I wasn't going to let anyone scoop us.  Since I work during the day, it had to wait until my lunch hour.  If you are linking to the 2006.html file, please be advised that it is inaccurate and not being used.  You should be looking at 2006-1.html.

-Sorry about the misspelling, TheSerge!  I've got to figure out a way to do electronic entry forms exclusively, that way I don't have to worry about trying to read handwriting!

-Post-ENnies celebrations: we've got the hall for an additional two hours after the ceremony and will have a DJ, so publishers and fandom are encouraged to stick around.

-Lack of Love for Product X: 
1. If said publisher didn't enter, we don't consider it: please see the list of participating publishers at http://www.enworld.org/ennies/links.html
2. There may have been lots of love for a product from some judges, but not others.  We had a very diverse set of tastes on the panel.

-Over the next two days I'll be posting more product information including descriptions, cover shots, and links to free samples.  With a week between the announcement of the nominations and the beginning of voting, I hope this will reduce the popularity contest aspect and encourage fans to explore games with which they are unfamiliar and make better informed decisions.

Thank you for your patience, guys.  And thank you judges for your hard work.


----------



## jgbrowning (Jul 11, 2006)

Dextra said:
			
		

> Thank you for your patience, guys.  And thank you judges for your hard work.




You do all this work and then thank _us_ for our patience? You must be Canadian... 

Thanks for all your hard work Dextra. And thanks to all the judges.

joe b.


----------



## Thrommel (Jul 11, 2006)

*Thanks!*

Thanks for the nomination!  

Everyone involved with diamondthrone.com is grateful for the recognition.

-Thrommel


----------



## andrew_kenrick (Jul 11, 2006)

> Best d20/OGL Product - the Etherscope entry should have been "Etherscope" itself, not the "Lemurian Candidate" adventure.




Aww shucks! And here I was thinking I'd been nominated for two! But I'm happy to share the love with Etherscope itself - congrats guys!


----------



## Psion (Jul 11, 2006)

andrew_kenrick said:
			
		

> Aww shucks! And here I was thinking I'd been nominated for two! But I'm happy to share the love with Etherscope itself - congrats guys!




Yeah, sorry about that. Might want to fix your sig.


----------



## malladin (Jul 11, 2006)

andrew_kenrick said:
			
		

> Aww shucks! And here I was thinking I'd been nominated for two! But I'm happy to share the love with Etherscope itself - congrats guys!




Cheers bud, if we could have taken someone else's nomination we would have   

Nigel


----------



## Clueless (Jul 11, 2006)

As Shemmy already posted earlier - w00p!  Thank you for nominating us this year, all of us over at Planewalker are delighted


----------



## Rasyr (Jul 11, 2006)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> The City of Cauldron is mapped and detailed with bars, spas, and other locations in addition to having the outlaying reigion mapped with notes and history including the town of Redgorge and numerous ruins.




You mean it includes things one might expect with a good adventure module. Heck, the words "Adventure Path" in the title says it is an adventure module as opposed to a setting.

Personally, I do not think that an adventure module (no matter how big) should end up being nominated as both an adventure and a setting.

Granted, congrats to Piazo for it being nominated for best adventure and best cartographer and any other nomination it received, except the one for Best Setting. I happen to strongly disagree with that. Heck, if an adventure module can be nominated for Best Setting, then it can only make folks wonder.


----------



## dpmcalister (Jul 11, 2006)

Thanks for the nomination for Modus Operandi in the Best Fan Site category. Some good competition there for me, but here's hoping that the third time's the charm


----------



## DaveMage (Jul 11, 2006)

Rasyr said:
			
		

> You mean it includes things one might expect with a good adventure module. Heck, the words "Adventure Path" in the title says it is an adventure module as opposed to a setting.
> 
> Personally, I do not think that an adventure module (no matter how big) should end up being nominated as both an adventure and a setting.
> 
> Granted, congrats to Piazo for it being nominated for best adventure and best cartographer and any other nomination it received, except the one for Best Setting. I happen to strongly disagree with that. Heck, if an adventure module can be nominated for Best Setting, then it can only make folks wonder.




Agreed on all counts.


----------



## GrayLinnorm (Jul 11, 2006)

I'm glad to see Tome of Horrors 3 nominated for best monster book! I hope it wins. Congratulations!


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Jul 11, 2006)

Looks like a good list. 

Congratulations to all the nominees and thanks to the judges for giving up their lives to read for months! Now go get some rest while you can!


----------



## JoeGKushner (Jul 11, 2006)

Rasyr said:
			
		

> You mean it includes things one might expect with a good adventure module. Heck, the words "Adventure Path" in the title says it is an adventure module as opposed to a setting.
> 
> Personally, I do not think that an adventure module (no matter how big) should end up being nominated as both an adventure and a setting.




We'll have to agree to disagree then. The book has more details in it than you'd use in the adventures making it far more useful than just running the adventurers. One coudl easily run Cauldron or Redgorge without actually running the adventurers themselves. The organizations and other bits that make up the city give ir more of a live than just a standard adventure and innovation, at least in my opinion, should be rewarded.


----------



## devilbat (Jul 11, 2006)

Great job judges!  You can't please all of the people, all of the time.


----------



## francisca (Jul 11, 2006)

Congrats to all the nominees, and a big "Thank You!" to all the judges.


----------



## Rodrigo Istalindir (Jul 11, 2006)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> I'll be honest.
> 
> I was one of those people with no love for Iron Heroes. It didn't do for me. Thought it would've made a  good first draft but that it requires a dedicated group of people to wade through the numerous combat options which equal spell complexity. Irregularities in token accumulation, specifics of token acucmulation (or the archer don't shoot my target syndrome), mismatched magic system, lack of clarity in the writing, ton of errata, etc... Good first draft, but best? M'eh.




FWIW, I concur.  Plus there may have been some subconscious backlash given the anticipation, the hype, and the pedigree.


----------



## Jonny Nexus (Jul 11, 2006)

Vascant said:
			
		

> I honestly have heard a few versions thus far so hard to say whats the truth at this point, one fact is clear by the nominations though it is clear I am wasting my time doing software and time to take up.. hmm.. golfing




I think you're find that's an unproductive attitude to take. The judges have a hard decision to make and the one they end up making is the one they end up making. I was terribly disappointed that my fanzine Critical Miss didn't get nominated for the best fan site award, but I didn't come onto this thread to whine about it.

No, I went onto my personal blog and whined extensively about it there, instead.  

And ended up getting an award that one of my readers created and awarded this very lunchtime!







I think he was a bit bored.  

So ENnies, pah! Who needs them!

Dammit. Dammit, dammit, dammit.


----------



## Cthulhu's Librarian (Jul 11, 2006)

Jonny Nexus said:
			
		

> I was terribly disappointed that my fanzine Critical Miss didn't get nominated for the best fan site award, but I didn't come onto this thread to whine about it.
> 
> No, I went onto my personal blog and whined extensively about it there, instead.




Dude, we gave you the Honorable Mention slot!   I know, it's not the same, but we do want to recognize those entries that just miss the top 5. That's why we have an HM in each category. So we did give you something that you can brag about. 

Nice site, BTW. I really enjoyed it.


----------



## Stormborn (Jul 11, 2006)

Congratulations to all the Nominees!

Since this was the first year that anything I worked on was even considered I was pleased to see that at least one thing I contributed to made the nominations (I wrote the Bloodline feats in the Dragon Compendium) and simultaneously disappointed that one particular product where I was the sole author did not make it.  However, when I look at all the people who sent things in and the quality of a lot of it, I don't feel so bad.  Oh, but next year!

Seriously, anything like this is going to have its criticisms.  I have never heard of any kind of award where there was not some kind of controversy about the nominees.   I think all of the judges should be praised and thanked for their hard word and time spent on this project.


----------



## Jonny Nexus (Jul 11, 2006)

Cthulhu's Librarian said:
			
		

> Dude, we gave you the Honorable Mention slot!   I know, it's not the same, but we do want to recognize those entries that just miss the top 5. That's why we have an HM in each category. So we did give you something that you can brag about.




I have to confess that I did rather assume that there probably weren't much more than six entries, so the Honourable Mention was less an "almost made it" and more a "and there was one other applicant".

Anyhow, although I'm not sure it's exactly something I can brag about (I really liked the idea of being able to constantly say "The ENnie nominated Critical Miss" at every opportunity, and trust me: I would have done!), thanks for the mention.  



			
				Cthulhu's Librarian said:
			
		

> Nice site, BTW. I really enjoyed it.




Well that's good to hear.   

And thanks for spending the time to check it out.


----------



## AscentStudios (Jul 11, 2006)

Congrats to all our fellow nominees, and thanks to all the judges for recognizing our work. We here at Crafty Games and AEG are very excited about the nominations *Spycraft 2.0* received this year and our crossing our fingers for GenCon!


----------



## Morrus (Jul 11, 2006)

Rasyr said:
			
		

> You mean it includes things one might expect with a good adventure module. Heck, the words "Adventure Path" in the title says it is an adventure module as opposed to a setting.
> 
> Personally, I do not think that an adventure module (no matter how big) should end up being nominated as both an adventure and a setting.




I wasn't judging, so I had no part in choosing what got nominated for what categories. However, had I been, I'd strongly disagree with that position (not that it matters - neither of us made the decision!)

IMO (and it's just my opinion), what the publisher decides to call the product is irrelevant to the category.  The only important factor is the function it serves.  And many products may serve more than one function, because products don't necessarily fall into narrow, arbitrary distinctions such as "adventure only", "setting only", or what-have-you.  A product is a product, and is unique.  

It may be that a setting book with a large monster section may fail utterly as a setting, but the monster section might be huge, beautiful and perfect.  In which case it would probably get nominated in a monster book section.


----------



## Cthulhu's Librarian (Jul 11, 2006)

Jonny Nexus said:
			
		

> I have to confess that I did rather assume that there probably weren't much more than six entries, so the Honourable Mention was less an "almost made it" and more a "and there was one other applicant".




There were more than 6. We had a full slate on entries, otherwise we would have not had a full category. I believe our minimum number of entries to have a valid category was 9, and all categories exceded that.


----------



## ColonelHardisson (Jul 11, 2006)

Jonny Nexus said:
			
		

> I have to confess that I did rather assume that there probably weren't much more than six entries, so the Honourable Mention was less an "almost made it" and more a "and there was one other applicant".




I can't speak for this precise situation, but when I was a judge, the "Honorable Mentions" were made because there were more great entries than nomination slots. It's a sign of a very strong roster of entries, not "well, it's the only other entry, so let's mention it." That was never an issue. Products were either good enough to be nominated, or they weren't. Honorable Mention is just shy of a nomination, and should be something to be proud of.


----------



## JoeGKushner (Jul 11, 2006)

Morrus said:
			
		

> It may be that a setting book with a large monster section may fail utterly as a setting, but the monster section might be huge, beautiful and perfect.  In which case it would probably get nominated in a monster book section.




Lockdown for M&M would probably fall into that category.

and from years ago, Crooks Meta-4 setting, even though it wasnt' the majority of the book (although it was detailed in criminal backgrounds!), would be another example of a book serving multi-functions.


----------



## Erik Mona (Jul 11, 2006)

And man oh man Crooks was an awesome book. Sort of like Shackled City. 

--Erik


----------



## andrew_kenrick (Jul 11, 2006)

> Honorable Mention is just shy of a nomination, and should be something to be proud of.




I'm certainly proud of our Honorable Mention, especially as it was in the Best Product category! Assuming that doesn't turn out to be a typo too ...


----------



## JoeGKushner (Jul 11, 2006)

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> And man oh man Crooks was an awesome book. Sort of like Shackled City.
> 
> --Erik




It's the only 1st ed M&M book that I kept. (Man I wish that could get updated to 2nd ed.)


----------



## Dextra (Jul 11, 2006)

*well said*



			
				ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> I can't speak for this precise situation, but when I was a judge, the "Honorable Mentions" were made because there were more great entries than nomination slots. It's a sign of a very strong roster of entries, not "well, it's the only other entry, so let's mention it." That was never an issue. Products were either good enough to be nominated, or they weren't. Honorable Mention is just shy of a nomination, and should be something to be proud of.




That's basically the situation.  Quite a few of our "Honourable Mentions" were the losers of ties between themselves and another nominee (who got the fifth spot on the nomination list).  There's no shame to be had in an HM!


----------



## Jonny Nexus (Jul 11, 2006)

ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> I can't speak for this precise situation, but when I was a judge, the "Honorable Mentions" were made because there were more great entries than nomination slots. It's a sign of a very strong roster of entries, not "well, it's the only other entry, so let's mention it." That was never an issue. Products were either good enough to be nominated, or they weren't. Honorable Mention is just shy of a nomination, and should be something to be proud of.




Yeah, maybe.  

Still sounds like something you tell the fat kid at sportsday: _Kid, ya didn't win the race, but you made us all laugh, and that's something too!_ 

I think also, it seems a much lesser honour, because:

a) well, it is; and

b) you can't easily use it as a tag line to your product.

For example, in this thread alone you have (in sigs):



> Etherscope: the Lemurian Candidate - nominated for Best Adventure, ENnie Awards 2006




And:



> Check out the Ennies Nominated Gates of Hell!




I would have said, "The ENnie nominated Critical Miss."

But you can't really say: "The ENnie honourably mentioned Critical Miss" because that's ungrammatical. And you can't say, "Critical Miss: winner of an ENnie Honourable Mention" because it's not something you win. So you end up with, "Critical Miss: receiver of an ENnie Honourable Mention", which just sounds really awkward and contrived and just a tad desperate.

So I know I'm sounding terribly ungrateful here, but given that it's firstly a lesser recognition, and secondly, one that you can't really mention in sigs and adverts and stuff because the words are too tangled... well it kind of ends up feeling like not much more than a pat on the back which you may as well just say thanks, and then not mention again.  

Which isn't a complaint. There was a top five. I wasn't in it. That's the way competition works. There's nothing so despised as a sore loser, and my intention in coming onto this thread was to make a joke, not whine.

So I'll shut up now and suck it up.


----------



## Turjan (Jul 11, 2006)

Jonny Nexus said:
			
		

> So you end up with, "Critical Miss: receiver of an ENnie Honourable Mention", which just sounds really awkward and contrived and just a tad desperate.



The Honourable Jonny Nexus, critically missing his shot at the ENnies.

No, doesn't work either.


----------



## Jonny Nexus (Jul 11, 2006)

Turjan said:
			
		

> The Honourable Jonny Nexus, critically missing his shot at the ENnies.
> 
> No, doesn't work either.




LOL


----------



## buzz (Jul 11, 2006)

Very happy to see SC2.0 receive so many nominations. It's easily my pick for best d20-type-thing of the year. 

I'll admit to disappointment at the lack of IH-love, though. I've had a number of opportunities to play it, and I haven't seen any of the reservations Joe mentioned impact play at all. IMO, it's a quantum leap for d20 fantasy.



			
				Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> ...the only one which I'd thought might be there that wasn't is True20, which I think has the potential to be a real gateway to new genres of OGL roleplaying.



If IH can be overlooked for the reasons that Joe enumerated, so can True20.


----------



## JoeGKushner (Jul 11, 2006)

buzz said:
			
		

> If IH can be overlooked for the reasons that Joe enumerated, so can True20.




And I did.   

For me, True20 wasn't simple enough if that was what it was going for and if not, it lacked enough system to move me as a reader. I was like, "Wow, these are like Bob's house notes for his game."


----------



## ColonelHardisson (Jul 11, 2006)

Jonny Nexus said:
			
		

> Yeah, maybe.
> 
> Still sounds like something you tell the fat kid at sportsday: _Kid, ya didn't win the race, but you made us all laugh, and that's something too!_




It isn't. By any stretch. 



			
				Jonny Nexus said:
			
		

> I think also, it seems a much lesser honour, because:
> 
> a) well, it is; and
> 
> ...




I've seen products use the "ENnies Honorable Mention" bit. 



			
				Jonny Nexus said:
			
		

> So I know I'm sounding terribly ungrateful here, but given that it's firstly a lesser recognition, and secondly, one that you can't really mention in sigs and adverts and stuff because the words are too tangled... well it kind of ends up feeling like not much more than a pat on the back which you may as well just say thanks, and then not mention again.




The judges were presumably so torn about the product that they felt it _had_ to be mentioned, when it very easily could not have been. To simply dismiss the Honorable Mention with a "that's nice, so what?" attitude is unfortunate. It was recognized. Do with that what you will. 



			
				Jonny Nexus said:
			
		

> Which isn't a complaint. There was a top five. I wasn't in it. That's the way competition works. There's nothing so despised as a sore loser, and my intention in coming onto this thread was to make a joke, not whine.
> 
> So I'll shut up now and suck it up.




You were given a mention as being so good they had to go out of their way to do so. Sounds like a positive thing to me, no matter how you rationalize it isn't.


----------



## Umbran (Jul 11, 2006)

Morrus said:
			
		

> IMO (and it's just my opinion), what the publisher decides to call the product is irrelevant to the category.




Yes, a given product may well fit into multiple categories.  But the question of whether one product should be allowed to receive multiple nominations isn't exactly clear cut.  I don't think there's a clear single answer - it is more a matter of policy and what you want out of awards.


----------



## Arnwyn (Jul 11, 2006)

Rasyr said:
			
		

> You mean it includes things one might expect with a good adventure module. Heck, the words "Adventure Path" in the title says it is an adventure module as opposed to a setting.



Yeah, that was a pretty weird nomination.


----------



## Rasyr (Jul 11, 2006)

Morrus said:
			
		

> I wasn't judging, so I had no part in choosing what got nominated for what categories. However, had I been, I'd strongly disagree with that position (not that it matters - neither of us made the decision!)
> 
> IMO (and it's just my opinion), what the publisher decides to call the product is irrelevant to the category.  The only important factor is the function it serves.  And many products may serve more than one function, because products don't necessarily fall into narrow, arbitrary distinctions such as "adventure only", "setting only", or what-have-you.  A product is a product, and is unique.
> 
> It may be that a setting book with a large monster section may fail utterly as a setting, but the monster section might be huge, beautiful and perfect.  In which case it would probably get nominated in a monster book section.




I have had it brought to my attention (in a very round-about manner), that the actual category name is "Best Campaign/Campaign Supplement", not "Best Campaign Setting/Setting Supplement" as the announcement flyer states.

Given that a "Campaign" is technically a series of linked adventures, that would mean that Setting books actualy do not have a category this year, and that there are 2 (two) specific categories meant for adventures. Or, if "Best Campaign/Campaign Supplement" is meant to include both full campaigns and settings, then there is a category that overlaps with another category (Best Adventures), and you can end up with the problem where the same product ends up nominated for two different awards for the same reason (i.e. because it is both a "bunch of adventures" and a "full campaign (as in a 'series of linked adventures')").

When the submissions were being done, I was under the impression that the category was for settings, and that it did not include "a series of linked adventures" (aka a 'Campaign').

Coming along after the fact, and saying that a product is a product doesn't help if the original definitions were unclear. If a product falls into more than a single category, that is one thing. But when the categories themselves are not clearly defined, or end up allowing an entry it shouldn't because its definition overlaps with another distinct category, then there is quite likely a problem there.

Best Adventure covers adventures. Best Campaign/Campaign Supplement should NOT cover "linked adventures" in addition to covering settings. That way lies problems.

In short, the category definitions need to be clear and concise, and not overlap. If a product falls into multiple categories, great for that product! I have no issues or problems with that. However, a product should never fall into two or more categories because of a single aspect of the product (in this case Shackled City Adventure Path).

And for the record, I am proud of any mention that ICE receives in conjunction with the ENnies. However, this does not stop me from pointing out what I see as a problem. And having categories that overlap in their definition (as to what is eligible) is a serious problem.

Edit: And no, I am not expecting anything to be done about it now, but I would hope that this problem DOES get resolved before next year.


----------



## buzz (Jul 11, 2006)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> And I did.
> 
> For me, True20 wasn't simple enough if that was what it was going for and if not, it lacked enough system to move me as a reader. I was like, "Wow, these are like Bob's house notes for his game."



My faith in you is once again renewed, Joe.


----------



## MonsterMash (Jul 11, 2006)

Congrats to all the nominees and honourable mentions. Thanks to the judges for their hard work, now just have to wait till I can vote in a horribly biased fashion.


----------



## diaglo (Jul 11, 2006)

MonsterMash said:
			
		

> Congrats to all the nominees and honourable mentions. Thanks to the judges for their hard work, now just have to wait till I can vote in a horribly biased fashion.




we should compare notes.


----------



## JoeGKushner (Jul 11, 2006)

Umbran said:
			
		

> Yes, a given product may well fit into multiple categories.  But the question of whether one product should be allowed to receive multiple nominations isn't exactly clear cut.  I don't think there's a clear single answer - it is more a matter of policy and what you want out of awards.




I can't even imagine this being a question. If a product has superior art and superior production values, do you punish it in one field simply because someone wants us to "spread the love" so to speak? Nonsense in my opinion.


----------



## Teflon Billy (Jul 11, 2006)

Cthulhu's Librarian said:
			
		

> Dude, we gave you the Honorable Mention slot!   I know, it's not the same, but we do want to recognize those entries that just miss the top 5. That's why we have an HM in each category. So we did give you something that you can brag about.
> 
> Nice site, BTW. I really enjoyed it.




I liked it best


----------



## Teflon Billy (Jul 11, 2006)

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> And man oh man Crooks was an awesome book. Sort of like Shackled City.
> 
> --Erik




LOL


----------



## Teflon Billy (Jul 11, 2006)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> It's the only 1st ed M&M book that I kept. (Man I wish that could get updated to 2nd ed.)




If you want the conversions Theo and I put together for M&M 2E, drop me an email.


----------



## Rasyr (Jul 11, 2006)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> I can't even imagine this being a question. If a product has superior art and superior production values, do you punish it in one field simply because someone wants us to "spread the love" so to speak? Nonsense in my opinion.




Being eligible in multiple categories is fine. Being nominated in multiple categories is just as fine and acceptable. So long as those categories do not overlap in definition.

The problem lies in when there are two categories who definitions overlap, such as with the Best Adventure category and the Best Campaign/Campaign Supplement category.

You (can) end up with the same product being nominated for two different awards for the same reason(s). There lies the problem.


----------



## Numion (Jul 11, 2006)

Rasyr said:
			
		

> Being eligible in multiple categories is fine. Being nominated in multiple categories is just as fine and acceptable. So long as those categories do not overlap in definition.
> 
> The problem lies in when there are two categories who definitions overlap, such as with the Best Adventure category and the Best Campaign/Campaign Supplement category.




Better get used to the 'problem'. For example Ptolus is a huge 1-20 level adventure and a huge setting in the same book. Books that break the usual barriers are here to stay, and that's a good thing.

I know, it's annoying when something doesn't fit neatly in slots


----------



## DaveMage (Jul 11, 2006)

Numion said:
			
		

> Better get used to the 'problem'. For example Ptolus is a huge 1-20 level adventure and a huge setting in the same book. Books that break the usual barriers are here to stay, and that's a good thing.
> 
> I know, it's annoying when something doesn't fit neatly in slots




If it comes anywhere near the expectations, Ptolus will likely sweep everything next year.  

Everyone else will be trying for silver.


----------



## Teflon Billy (Jul 11, 2006)

DaveMage said:
			
		

> If it comes anywhere near the expectations, Ptolus will likely sweep everything next year.
> 
> Everyone else will be trying for silver.




I haven't been following closely, but what I've heard is that it is Huge, Info-Packed, Gorgeous and a Labour of Love.

And that certainly _does_ sound like a pretty tough superfecta.


----------



## diaglo (Jul 11, 2006)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> I haven't been following closely, but what I've heard is that it is Huge, Info-Packed, Gorgeous and a Labour of Love.




i'll take Prissy for $100, Alex.

"I don't know nothing about birthing no babies."


----------



## Umbran (Jul 11, 2006)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> I can't even imagine this being a question.




Sorry.  Occupational hazard.  I question assumptions rather regularly. 



> If a product has superior art and superior production values, do you punish it in one field simply because someone wants us to "spread the love" so to speak? Nonsense in my opinion.




You see, you assume one rather specific reason for a particular policy.  I very specifically did not make any such assumption.  There are many possible reasons to have awards.  The goals and desired results help form the policy.  I don't think it reasonable to say that all goals are equally served by one policy.


----------



## Teflon Billy (Jul 11, 2006)

diaglo said:
			
		

> i'll take Prissy for $100, Alex.
> 
> "I don't know nothing about birthing no babies."




I'n trying to decide whether I just got served or not


----------



## Turjan (Jul 11, 2006)

Umbran said:
			
		

> You see, you assume one rather specific reason for a particular policy.  I very specifically did not make any such assumption.  There are many possible reasons to have awards.  The goals and desired results help form the policy.  I don't think it reasonable to say that all goals are equally served by one policy.



An important point, I think. A "spread the love" policy has its merits, too, as has the way it's done now. It's a matter of deciding what you want the awards to be. That's more a question for some unemotional discussion; for next year .


----------



## Teflon Billy (Jul 11, 2006)

Turjan said:
			
		

> An important point, I think. A "spread the love" policy has its merits, too, as has the way it's done now. It's a matter of deciding what you want the awards to be. That's more a question for some unemotional discussion; for next year .




I have no "Spread the love" policy, and don't think I would (as a judge) appreciate a policy of that nature.

I vote for what I personally find compelling (which this year seemed to be largely Superheroes, Superspies, Worlds and Cities)

I think the "policy" (such as it is) has always been something along the lines of what the Judges "judge" (and can adequately explain) to be best after discussion with their  fellows.

In my experience, this produces a nice cross-section of consideration with a variety of viewpoints, tastes, knowledges and experience.

I can't imagine anyone would be interested in "being tossed a bone", but I guess I could be wrong.


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## JoeGKushner (Jul 11, 2006)

Turjan said:
			
		

> An important point, I think. A "spread the love" policy has its merits, too, as has the way it's done now. It's a matter of deciding what you want the awards to be. That's more a question for some unemotional discussion; for next year .




What exactly would those mertis be? That hey, you really aren't the best, but because we put limits on what a product can be nominated in, we give you a thumbs up?


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## Numion (Jul 11, 2006)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> What exactly would those mertis be? That hey, you really aren't the best, but because we put limits on what a product can be nominated in, we give you a thumbs up?




It's limited in its current format too. The nominations are limited by the year they were published in, which of course makes sense, Ennies being a yearly business and all. 

But you're still saying "You're not necessarily the best setting - only best of 2005 (or whatever)"

A nitpick


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## MulhorandSage (Jul 11, 2006)

Eosin the Red said:
			
		

> Thanks guys!
> 
> Pencil Pushers got honorable mention and there was some really fine stuff put out this year. I can only imagine how time consuming the selection process became. The judges did a stellar job!




I was really glad that "Last Dominion" got the honorable mention. I haven't seen it yet, but I've liked the other stuff I've seen from you. (And Chiba Bob swears by it, at a level of enthusiasm that's rare from that particular 25+ year gamer, and I generally take him at his word -- so well done.)

Thanks to the judges for their hard work. I really like the format you've settled on for the last two years (the categories seem well-chosen) and I'm looking forward to the awards ceremony.


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## Turjan (Jul 11, 2006)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> I have no "Spread the love" policy, and don't think I would (as a judge) appreciate a policy of that nature.
> 
> I vote for what I personally find compelling (which this year seemed to be largely Superheroes, Superspies, Worlds and Cities)
> 
> I think the "policy" (such as it is) has always been something along the lines of what the Judges "judge" (and can adequately explain) to be best after discussion with their  fellows.



Oh, I'm fine with that. I did in no way say that I'm discontent with the nominations. As far as I can see it, I don't see any nomination where I would outright say that it doesn't deserve it, and I know a great deal of the products.

But you have just to look at the categories "Best Campaign/Campaign Supplement", "Best Game", "Best d20/OGL Product" and "Best Product" in order to see that this could be divided in a completely different way. I won't detail this here now, because, actually, (i) I don't think it belongs here and (ii) I don't have any personal stake in these matters. That's something for next year and should not clutter this year's nominations thread.


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## JoeGKushner (Jul 11, 2006)

I personally felt that Best D20/OGL thing should go out the window myself but as this is mainly a d20 site... and that OGL part is OGL meaning based on d20 SRD stylings so things like FUDGE were out in the cold.


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## JoeGKushner (Jul 11, 2006)

Numion said:
			
		

> It's limited in its current format too. The nominations are limited by the year they were published in, which of course makes sense, Ennies being a yearly business and all.
> 
> But you're still saying "You're not necessarily the best setting - only best of 2005 (or whatever)"
> 
> A nitpick




Well, isn't that what we are saying? You are the best of this year? I don't think we're trying to do the Superboy Prime think and punch time into retconning these nominations as the best of all time.

It might be interesting to see what a five year vote would do among the winners as that would give us five winners.


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## Turjan (Jul 11, 2006)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> What exactly would those mertis be? That hey, you really aren't the best, but because we put limits on what a product can be nominated in, we give you a thumbs up?



Choosing categories is akin to making politics. You can compare it to drawing the borders of electoral districts. That's what you have to think about when you do so.

And I stop it here, because, as I said, I'm not here to criticize the nominations. I simply agreed to a point Umbran brought up.


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## HellHound (Jul 11, 2006)

Rasyr: You say you don't expect your comments to change the awards at this time. Then, instead of making them and harping on about them, how about waiting to be constructive when the awards aren't already taking up 150% of my wife's available time?

You know... basically any other time of the year except *right now* when the ENnies are at their peak and the people who work on them are working their BUTTS off on them? You want change for next year, then *bring it up next year*.



Listen, I'm an ENnies widower. I see my wife when we both get home from work. At which time she's working on the ENnies and all I get to hear about are the various publishers complaining about their nominations or lack thereof (yeah, last year I got to hear about one publisher who was so annoyed at BEING nominated that it became a huge issue), or about the nominations of OTHER products. We eat a quick dinner. I go to bed around midnight... she comes in some time between 2 and 3 am. When I wake up, she's already downstairs working on the ENnies until it is time to go to work. If any of you honestly think that ADDING to what she has to deal with is a good thing, feel free to call me at home and tell me all about it: 1-613-678-3880. I'll be glad to talk about it.


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## Arnwyn (Jul 11, 2006)

If I'm not mistaken, this is just a random discussion thread on a public messageboard, with people simply discussing the nominations. Your wife (and yourself) are free to ignore this thread.

Of course, if people are directly emailing your wife, then I agree - *not cool*.


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## Cthulhu's Librarian (Jul 11, 2006)

deleted by CL


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## HellHound (Jul 11, 2006)

> f I'm not mistaken, this is just a random discussion thread on a public messageboard, with people simply discussing the nominations. Your wife (and yourself) are free to ignore this thread.




Arnwyn: So, if you owned a company and someone on your company message board was discussing how badly something your company was doing was going, you would feel that it was appropriate to ignore the comments?

I was ignoring this thread. 

I don't post to or read these forums currently with this one exception. However, as the manager of the ENnies, my wife doesn't have that privilege. She HAS to keep abreast of the situation, especially when the conversation occurs on the message board of ENWorld, owner of the ENnies. And thus my recommendation that people encourage her now, and bring their requests for changes up later, when things have slowed down a bit.


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## Arnwyn (Jul 11, 2006)

HellHound said:
			
		

> Arnwyn: So, if you owned a company and someone on your company message board was discussing how badly something your company was doing was going, you would feel that it was appropriate to ignore the comments?



This question merits a simple "it depends".



> I don't post to or read these forums currently with this one exception. However, as the manager of the ENnies, my wife doesn't have that privilege. She HAS to keep abreast of the situation, especially when the conversation occurs on the message board of ENWorld, owner of the ENnies. And thus my recommendation that people encourage her now, and bring their requests for changes up later, when things have slowed down a bit.



I suspect at this stage, one should probably continue working on the highest priority items - since it's probably too late to change most things (especially the nominations and categories!).

Any "fires" will likely be directly emailed/phoned/etc. A random thread probably doesn't qualify (and, seeing from the posts in this thread, that looks to be true).


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## mearls (Jul 11, 2006)

HellHound said:
			
		

> Rasyr: You say you don't expect your comments to change the awards at this time. Then, instead of making them and harping on about them, how about waiting to be constructive when the awards aren't already taking up 150% of my wife's available time?




I think this is the key. There's a line between pointing out things you'd like to see changed, and going on and on about it to the point that the method of delivering your message drowns out your message.

IMNSHO, this is the best slate of candidates I've ever seen. There's top to bottom quality in every category. For stuff like the Shackled City, I think the judges did precisely the right thing.

Running an award of any sort in the RPG "industry" is an exercise in frustration. The Origins Awards are so crippled precisely because of all the infighting, whining, and vicious politics that surrounded them.

It'd be sad to see that happen to the ENnies. This award is important, IMO, because it shows that the fans care enough about the business to put all this work into it. I honestly don't even care who wins, or if stuff I worked on gets nominated. I just care that the people I sell books to care enough about this hobby to put a ton of work into an award.

Whether you win, lose, get a nomination, get ignored, or whatever, if you work in the RPG business the ENnies honor the work you do. And for that, let me say THANK YOU to the staff and judges.


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## Rystil Arden (Jul 11, 2006)

mearls said:
			
		

> Whether you win, lose, get a nomination, get ignored, or whatever, if you work in the RPG business the ENnies honor the work you do. And for that, let me say THANK YOU to the staff and judges.




I completely agree, and I am refreshed to hear a voice of goodwill amidst the complaints, especially telling from the creator of Iron Heroes, which was an excellent book and is the only product I expected to be nominated this year that was not (I'll bet it just missed it too).  As far as I'm concerned, this sort of philosophy is a credit to the industry, and it makes me proud to be paying to support it


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## Treebore (Jul 11, 2006)

Personally I'm tired of complaints being treated like they are a bad thing. The only way to improve is to know what is wrong.

As for you Hellhound, if your wife is being harassed with e-mails and phone calls, that is wrong, but if she is so stressed out that she is letting complaints get her down and distract her from the focus of her reponsibilities, get her drunk as hell. That, or a couple of hours of a good toe curling bedroom workout, always do the trick for my wife and I.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Jul 11, 2006)

Treebore said:
			
		

> Personally I'm tired of complaints being treated like they are a bad thing. The only way to improve is to know what is wrong.




I believe the important thing to recognize, though, is that there's a difference between valid complaints and just plain whining.


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## HellHound (Jul 11, 2006)

Arnwyn said:
			
		

> This question merits a simple "it depends".




I think the real issue is that this attempt at constructive change is being spearheaded by a major stakeholder in the awards - the companies themselves. You can't just ignore your stakeholders when you run something. 

If it was complaints from individual users (and yes, she gets a bunch of those in email too), then I'm sure she would give it a quick "whatever*".

*Actually, I'm sure she would be a lot more politic than that - there is a reason she has the job besides her hard work.


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## Mark (Jul 11, 2006)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> I completely agree, and I am refreshed to hear a voice of goodwill amidst the complaints, especially telling from the creator of Iron Heroes, which was an excellent book and is the only product I expected to be nominated this year that was not (I'll bet it just missed it too).  As far as I'm concerned, this sort of philosophy is a credit to the industry, and it makes me proud to be paying to support it





Well said. 

I think there have been far fewer complaints in this thread than it seems. There are a lot more people who only popped in to say, "Congrats!" and then moved along.  However, changes and complaints are probably better saved for a revamping period, post Gencon.  There should probably be a page on the site with that suggestion and information.  Perhaps also an email form on that page with an automated reply that states that all complaints and concerns are welcome and will be handled in due course.  Some people seem to feel disenfranchised by the process and nobody wants that to be anyone's mindset.  It's far easier to give someone a link to information for properly registering a complaint than it is to leave them feeling unheard, and the result is in everyone's better interests.


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## HellHound (Jul 12, 2006)

Treebore said:
			
		

> Personally I'm tired of complaints being treated like they are a bad thing. The only way to improve is to know what is wrong.




I agree COMPLETELY.

Complaints are great, but there is a time for them. Innundating the awards with them NOW, when you had 10 months prior to this to do it, and another 10 months before we get to this stage again... that is a pain. 

Through complaints, things get done. But piling extra work on overworked volunteers = no fun at all, and your message gets lost.

If you post your complaints in September, say, when things start up for next year's awards, then you have a much better chance of an intelligent discussion AND of results.

---

That said, it is true that there has been a lot less crankiness in here this year than in most previous years.


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## Rasyr (Jul 12, 2006)

HellHound said:
			
		

> Rasyr: You say you don't expect your comments to change the awards at this time. Then, instead of making them and harping on about them, how about waiting to be constructive when the awards aren't already taking up 150% of my wife's available time?
> 
> You know... basically any other time of the year except *right now* when the ENnies are at their peak and the people who work on them are working their BUTTS off on them? You want change for next year, then *bring it up next year*.




Several different things going on here.

1) My first post in this thread was a questioning comment. 

2) My later posts were in response to those who answered my first post, most specifically Joe since he responded to my first query.

3) My question(s) (and the responses I received) have fully led me to believe that there is quite possibly a serious flaw in the awards process. 

4) As I stated before, I don't expect anything to be done. I am not asking that the judge vote be redone or anything along those lines. However, the issue I pointed out IS a topic of conversation here. A topic of conversation between the participants. Nobody is asking Dextra to comment, nor do I think that they are expecting her to. ( I know that I am not, on either account).

5) Also there is the fact that if problems and issues are not brought to light immediately (even if there is nothing to be done about them at the time), others have a tendency to treat the issue as if "well, if you thought it was important, why didn't you bring it up then". I have had this happen to me too many times in the past that if I see something I think is wrong.

 I WOULD like to take a moment to thank all of this year's judges, they have done an excellent job. And, Hellhound, I think that you might be exaggerating how much time you actually get to spend with Dextra. I have been involved with awards before as a judge so I know how much time that can consume. Dextra is the coordinator, and thus likely spend 10x as much time on them. She is doing a herculean job, and should be heartily commended for it.

It has also been brought to my attention that some folks may think that I am "working this issue" that I have because Cyradon was not nominated. I want to refute any such thoughts right now. Heck, I am proud that Cyradon received an honorable mention. And it took me 3 different times looking at the announcement flyer before I even realized that Cyradon had been honorably mentioned. The first time I looked, I saw Shackled CIty as a nomination under Best Adventure, and then when I saw it again, I didn't finish reading the rest of the the Best Campaign nominations before coming here and posting my question about it.

I saw that product being nominated in two such vastly different categories, it looked like a problem to me. I still think it is a problem, not with the people involved, but with the processes. Processes that are still evolving. Therefore, I brought the issue up here in this thread (also partially due to #5 listed above).

Hellhound, if I had thought that this was a problem that Dextra needed to deal with now, I would have emailed her directly, not asked about it here. I apologize if my questions/comments have caused her grief.


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## Crothian (Jul 12, 2006)

Rasyr said:
			
		

> 3) My question(s) (and the responses I received) have fully led me to believe that there is quite possibly a serious flaw in the awards process.




That's what I'm interested in.

From what I've read it seems that Shackled City being nominated for Best Adventure and Best Campaign Setting/Setting Supplement is the issue.  

As one of the Judges I felt that Shackled City is one of those rare products that covers a lot of areas.  It has setting material in it as well as Adventures.  Not every product fits neatly into one or the other category, there is going to be cross over.


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## Dextra (Jul 12, 2006)

*Good golly*

Well, I'm certainly glad to see that the ENnies, as usual, are sparking controversy conversation!

About an hour ago (after dropping the eldest off at dance class, having picked her up from school after work), I came home to a fried CPU.  And all I could think of was how thankful I was that my computer didn't actually burst into flame from all of the traffic it has been seeing.  Fortunately once I gave it a chance to cool off, it came back just fine.  Now I'm listening to my fans chugging away, and being thankful that I'm driving to the city tomorrow so I can pick up a new one (although I'm not thankful for the expense, sigh... maybe I can bill the new fan to the ENnies?)

Honestly, I'm glad for the discussion and constructive criticism.  However I'm going to ignore it for now.  There's no time for reform between this moment and when I get back from Gen Con.  I will keep an eye on this thread in order to make sure no disinformation is being spread, and maybe try and bask a little in the occasional (but oh, so wonderful) words of praise.  But for now, I'm going to concentrate upon working with the nominated publishers in order to maximize their visibility, update the web site, deal with my Gen Con and hotel convention services people, order trophies and medals, prepare to print certificates, mail the publishers, get the voting booth prepared, do a massive PR run in gaming media and other media about the voting and the awards ceremony, get our publicity materials ready for the convention, chase down some sponsors (just got an email informing me of the additional $700 worth of costs I wasn't counting on), do some damage control and ego salving for some publishers, keep up on my hate email, get the Dream Date and product auctions going and advertised, and maybe sleep more than five hours in a night.

As I'm sipping my Growers Granny Smith Apple cider with a large storm fan aimed at myself and my beleaguered computer, I'm actually quite pleased with where we are, and how far we have come.  There's considerably less kvetching than in past years, and the flames are not burning with teh hate of a thousand suns.  We're golden.

If there's anything important, email me.  If I don't get back to you within 24 hours, then my computer truly did go to silcon heaven, in which case, phone or send smoke signals.  Thank you everyone for your kind words and thoughtfulness.


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## DaveMage (Jul 12, 2006)

HellHound said:
			
		

> *Actually, I'm sure she would be a lot more politic than that - there is a reason she has the job besides her hard work.




IIRC, the way she conducted herself last year convinced me that she could sell freezers to eskimos.


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## Buttercup (Jul 12, 2006)

I just want to say thanks to all the judges and staff of the Ennies!  I was peripherially involved last year, so I have some idea how hard you work.  (Not that I worked that hard.  My job was piddling compared to what the judges or Dextra have on their plates.)  

And let me remind everyone out there in internet land, this is done by volunteers.  That's a heck of a lot of free time that these folks give up.

And now, I'd like to congratulate all the nominees and honorable mentions.  I'm not (yet) familiar with all of the nominated products, so I've got some work to do before voting time rolls around.  

It makes me really happy that the ENnies continue to thrive.  This is a really cool thing we're part of, don't you think?


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## Dextra (Jul 12, 2006)

Buttercup said:
			
		

> It makes me really happy that the ENnies continue to thrive.  This is a really cool thing we're part of, don't you think?




I just got back from picking up the eldest from dance class.  I was chatting with her teacher (who is incidentally among my best friends) trying to explain why I looked so haggard.

Then I had the realization that we must be doing something right that the Awards are so highly thought of to generate so much emotion.  So congrats to all those who came before who built a solid foundation with all their efforts, and yay me for raising the bar.


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## DaveMage (Jul 12, 2006)

Dextra said:
			
		

> Then I had the realization that we must be doing something right that the Awards are so highly thought of to generate so much emotion.  So congrats to all those who came before who built a solid foundation with all their efforts, and yay me for raising the bar.




Like someone once said, "Don't get worried when I criticize you. When I ignore you, that's when you should worry."


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## Rasyr (Jul 12, 2006)

Dextra said:
			
		

> I came home to a fried CPU.  And all I could think of was how thankful I was that my computer didn't actually burst into flame from all of the traffic it has been seeing.  Fortunately once I gave it a chance to cool off, it came back just fine.
> 
> -----snip-----
> 
> If I don't get back to you within 24 hours, then my computer truly did go to silcon heaven, in which case, phone or send smoke signals.  Thank you everyone for your kind words and thoughtfulness.




Sounds like your cooling fan (for the CPU itself) is going out. I would suggest not using the computer until you can replace it. First time I ever saw a cooling fan go bad, it not only fried my son's CPU, but also the whole motherboard and about half of other things inside the box as well. Not a pretty sight....


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## Klaus (Jul 12, 2006)

Indeed, a big yay! for Dextra, and an extra yay! for Hellhound and the girls, who I'm sure also see some side effects on the Ennies.

A general 'thank you' to all the judges and all the VOLUNTEERS (can't be stressed enough) who bust their... er... hats off to make these awards happen for no other reason than the love for the hobby.

It's an honor to be nominated (four or five years in a row?), and I'm even more excited because this time I'll be there to thank Dex, the judges and everyone involved personally.

So, once more with feeling:

Yay! Thank You!


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## Dextra (Jul 12, 2006)

Rasyr said:
			
		

> Sounds like your cooling fan (for the CPU itself) is going out. I would suggest not using the computer until you can replace it. First time I ever saw a cooling fan go bad, it not only fried my son's CPU, but also the whole motherboard and about half of other things inside the box as well. Not a pretty sight....




Good point!
Unfortunately, I really need to use it right now.  
But whenever I'm not using it, I'm going to turn it off from now on!


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## Pramas (Jul 12, 2006)

The Ennies are without a doubt the most prestigious RPG award in the game industry now, which is pretty amazing when you think back to the first awards ceremony (held online) and consider how much they've grown in a short time. The Ennies do so much right and so far they have avoided many of the traps of other awards. That is really an achievement and all the volunteers that make it happen should be proud of what they've built. So to Denise, the judges, Morrus, and all the volunteers of previous awards--kudos to you and well done. We should also thank the EN World community at large, for providing a positive place where such a set of awards could be nurtured. 

Now that this great thing has been built, though, of course we also want to see it continue to thrive and get even better. I think that's the spirit which commentary should be (and in most cases is) offered. I totally understand why Denise does not want to have discussions about the nature of the awards right now. She's got a ton to do between now and GenCon and I think we'd all agree that should be her focus. I do think there is an advantage to having a discussion about the awards now though, even if Denise herself doesn't go back to read it until next year. Namely, that right now publishers who have been nominated can offer commentary before they find out whether they've won or not. After the awards some commentary could be seen as "sour grapes", even if it isn't. By having a discussion before the awards are given out, that can be avoided. 

For my part, I have two observations, which are based on watching what happened to the Origins Awards over the years. 

1) It really is worth the effort to define the categories in a clear and unambiguous way. The OAs have been poor about actually documenting what the awards are for and often leads to a disconnect between what people think an award is for and what it's actually for. 

2) There was a big drive to reduce the number of categories in the OAs, which I think was misguided and damaging to the awards. One of the great things about the Ennies as an RPG award is that usually like products compete against each other. I think that's something well worth keeping. Right now the OAs have exactly two categories for RPGs, which is pretty ridiculous. The Ennies have largely avoided this trap and that's good. I did note though that there used to a category for smaller settings like city books (Best Setting Supplement IIRC) but that category isn't around this year. I wonder if Tim would have had an issue with Shackled City being in that category, where it's city setting would have competed against similar products. 

That's all I've got to say. Congrats to all the nominees and I'll see you all Friday night at GenCon!


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## Klaus (Jul 12, 2006)

Dextra said:
			
		

> Good point!
> Unfortunately, I really need to use it right now.
> But whenever I'm not using it, I'm going to turn it off from now on!



 One trick is to remove the casing and put a regular fan directed towards the computer. Just be sure nothing falls or spills into the thing.


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## Crothian (Jul 12, 2006)

Pramas said:
			
		

> I did note though that there used to a category for smaller settings like city books (Best Setting Supplement IIRC) but that category isn't around this year. I wonder if Tim would have had an issue with Shackled City being in that category, where it's city setting would have competed against similar products.




As always thanks Pramas for your post. The reason we combined settings and setting supplements was we were not getting enough settings for that category to exist on its own.


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## mearls (Jul 12, 2006)

HellHound said:
			
		

> I think the real issue is that this attempt at constructive change is being spearheaded by a major stakeholder in the awards - the companies themselves. You can't just ignore your stakeholders when you run something.




I agree with this sentiment, but I utterly disagree with the idea that publishers are stakeholders in the awards. The publishers only have a stake in the awards in that they might win one.

The fans, the average guy on the street who buys RPG stuff, are your customers. Any award remains vital only so long as it continues to point to good stuff. Gamers, not publishers, define what "good stuff" actually means.

Look at the Origins Awards. The publishers and RPG designers had free rein to run them, and for years they were wracked by ego clashes, backstabbing, hysterics, and vitriol. In the end, they collapsed. Today, the staggering majority of gamers consider them a joke because when they see the OA nominees, they see stuff that they know doesn't belong in there.

Since gamers judge the OAs pointless, they lose all their value. If gamers value an award, the publishers have to enter if they want to win an award that means anything. It doesn't work the other way - the gaming community, not the publishers, determines an award's net worth. Publishers valued the OAs so much that they tore them to pieces like a pack of rabid dogs. All the while, gamers never cared, and look where the OAs are now.


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## JoeBlank (Jul 12, 2006)

Kudos to the nominees, and the honorable mentions!

And countless thanks to the judges, and to Dextra, and all the others who give of their time to make the ENnies happen. As Pramas mentioned, you guys have helped to bring the ENnies from simple fansite awards to "without a doubt the most prestigious RPG award in the game industry now." That is high praise. Keep up the good work!


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## Rasyr (Jul 12, 2006)

Klaus said:
			
		

> One trick is to remove the casing and put a regular fan directed towards the computer. Just be sure nothing falls or spills into the thing.




Also make sure that the regular fan is NOT too close, as it uses electromagnets, which can cause data loss problems with the hard drive.


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## Rasyr (Jul 12, 2006)

Crothian said:
			
		

> That's what I'm interested in.
> 
> From what I've read it seems that Shackled City being nominated for Best Adventure and Best Campaign Setting/Setting Supplement is the issue.




Actually the issue is that it was nominated in two distinct categories. Personally, I feel that it does not belong in the category you mention, but I have heard (from others) that there may be a case for it being there. But if it does belong there, then I think that it should NOT belong in Best Adventure. The issue is not what categories, but the fact that it is in two categories that I feel are not fully compatible for sharing a product.

However, there are several other issues that this has brought to light, more than I have actually mentioned.

One of the main ones being category definitions, AND names as well. Best Campaign/Campaign Supplement is a bad name for a category that is supposed to be about settings. Even more so when the name used on the announcement flyer is different than the name used on the ENnies website (lack of consistency - this is NOT meant as a slight to Dextra, I fully understand that she is well and truly overworked).



			
				Crothian said:
			
		

> As one of the Judges I felt that Shackled City is one of those rare products that covers a lot of areas.  It has setting material in it as well as Adventures.  Not every product fits neatly into one or the other category, there is going to be cross over.




Problem is, I think that whole group of categories (as they are divided on the ENnies website:



> In order to make room for product images and descriptions, the nominations have been broken into five separate pages:
> 
> 1. Fan Site and Fans' Choice for Best Publisher: Best Fan Site | Fans' Choice: Best Publisher
> 2. The elements that make up the products: Best Cover Art | Best Interior Art | Best Cartography | Best Production Values | Best Writing | Best Rules
> ...




Looking at the above categories, I think that I am of the opinion that anything in the third group should have been exlusive any single category listed within that group and that submission should be limited to the manner in which the product was marketed/advertised.

Meaning that if it was advertised as a campaign (read "linked series of adventures") then it belong in the Best Adventure category, not in the category dealing with settings and setting supplements. And definitely not both.

I also notice that  Artesia is in both Best Game and Best setting. It is marketed/advertised as a full game, thus I would say it belongs under full game. Was Pendragon considered for Best Campaign/Campaign Supplement? It is a full game with a built in setting, so if Artesia was considered for nomination based on its setting then why wasn't Pendragon? 

If it was considered, then answer this, if the games Buffy or Angel were released this year, would you consider them for Best Campaign/Campaign Supplement becuase of any setting material the game included?

I see other oddities and potential issues, but I will leave them alone for now (I hope that the announcement flyer stays available even after GenCon is over, as it will be a great tool for making arguements later for improvements to the ENnies.

-----------------------------------------------------------

I just took a break from writing this, and read the post by Chris Pramas. I'll make responses to his points, but won't quote him, since this beastie is long enough..


Setting Supplement Category - Not sure if I would have had an issue with it or not. Cannot honestly say. However, I do think that having the categories be separate would have been a good thing. I also think that how a product is marketed should help determine what sort of product category is should be in. Less strongly (meaning that a good arguement might sway me), I also think that when it comes to the product type categories (adventure, supplement, campaign setting, setting supplement, full game, etc), that the submitted product should likely be limited to how the product is presented/marketed as (I think that this would reduce attempts to game the system).

Category Definitions - Chris, I cannot remember how much you participated in the OATF discussions, but I have always been a strong proponent of solid, unambiguous category definitions. This issue with SCAP is a strong indicator, to my way of thinking, that good category definitions could possibly have avoided this problem.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As Chris points out, the ENnies are, right now, THE rpg awards. However, the ENnies (after GenCon), really needs to think about codifying its rules and definitions in a much more solid manner than they currently are (and Dextra has done a fabulous job of this so far, but I think it is going to require more than just her). For example, the entry form says judges have the right to move products from one category to another or to remove it from a cat or to add it to another cat if needed. Yet, I have never seen any documentation which shows under what circumstances this may be done, nor even if such moves are tracked. The ENnies are great, but there is still a LOT of room for improvement.... 


Edit --- Added --
I may not be able to respond to this thread again until Saturday or Sunday. I am moving, and will be without an internet connection for several days. I am not ignoring the conversation or anybody in it.


----------



## Clueless (Jul 12, 2006)

Dextra - good luck with that computer move, hopefully you'll be able to get all the data transferred over really easily. I'd offer my services since comp. support is one of the things I do, but I think it'd be a bit of a drive - aside from looking a little fishy. 

Let me know if you need anything from Planewalker like images, or questions answered or the like.


----------



## Dextra (Jul 12, 2006)

Clueless said:
			
		

> Dextra - good luck with that computer move, hopefully you'll be able to get all the data transferred over really easily. I'd offer my services since comp. support is one of the things I do, but I think it'd be a bit of a drive - aside from looking a little fishy.
> 
> Let me know if you need anything from Planewalker like images, or questions answered or the like.




That reminds me, if the fan site nominees could send me a screencap (or some other graphic of 75 x 100 pixels as well as up to 30 words of descriptive text and the name of the web master, that'd be fabulous!


----------



## Jonny Nexus (Jul 12, 2006)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> I liked it best




Thank you. That's very cool to hear. I've always said that I'd rather have a magazine that 50% hated and 50% loved than one that 100% thought was okay.  

And I must again stress that: a) I do appreciate that "honourable mention" (a.k.a. "sixth place") is better than not being nominated at all; and b) my disappointment at not getting a full nomination should not in any way be taken as criticism of either the judges or the judging process.


----------



## Turjan (Jul 12, 2006)

Rasyr said:
			
		

> Actually the issue is that it was nominated in two distinct categories. Personally, I feel that it does not belong in the category you mention, but I have heard (from others) that there may be a case for it being there. But if it does belong there, then I think that it should NOT belong in Best Adventure. The issue is not what categories, but the fact that it is in two categories that I feel are not fully compatible for sharing a product.



I don't really agree with your category issue in general. For example, Necromancer Games has many products where I would have a hard time deciding which category they belong to. They published numerous products that are half setting/half adventure or half sourcebook/half adventure. There is no way to put them exclusively into one of those categories. With Shackled City it's a bit heavier on the adventure side, but Cauldron and the environment are relatively well developed as setting, which means I can see where the decision comes from. It's easy to take Cauldron as your campaign headquarters without the need to touch the actual adventure.


			
				Rasyr said:
			
		

> I also notice that  Artesia is in both Best Game and Best setting. It is marketed/advertised as a full game, thus I would say it belongs under full game. Was Pendragon considered for Best Campaign/Campaign Supplement? It is a full game with a built in setting, so if Artesia was considered for nomination based on its setting then why wasn't Pendragon?



Here, you forget one important point. It's not sufficient for a product to fit a category to be nominated, it must also be among the five best in this category to get nominated. Look at Artesia and look at Pendragon, and maybe, it's not so hard to understand after all .


----------



## hong (Jul 12, 2006)

Klaus said:
			
		

> One trick is to remove the casing and put a regular fan directed towards the computer.



 No, I'm not a fan! I never even looked at your product, let alone sent you 62,343 emails! GET ME OUT OF HERE!!!1!


----------



## MavrickWeirdo (Jul 12, 2006)

Nevermind


----------



## JoeGKushner (Jul 12, 2006)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> I believe the important thing to recognize, though, is that there's a difference between valid complaints and just plain whining.




And differences of opinion.

People can tell me the Shackled City isn't a campaign setting all day and I'm not going to agree with them.


----------



## DaveMage (Jul 12, 2006)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> And differences of opinion.
> 
> People can tell me the Shackled City isn't a campaign setting all day and I'm not going to agree with them.




In that case, the term "Campaign Setting" needs to be defined.

To me, a campaign setting details a campaign world or large part thereof.  It also lists a full pantheon, details the nations within the world (or large part thereof) and details (briefly or extensively) the history of each.  If your (or, more specifically the ENNies as a whole) definition is something else (which is fine), then it needs to be stated for the benefit of the awards.  

"Setting supplement" and all other terms should also be defined.


----------



## malladin (Jul 12, 2006)

Pramas said:
			
		

> 1) It really is worth the effort to define the categories in a clear and unambiguous way. The OAs have been poor about actually documenting what the awards are for and often leads to a disconnect between what people think an award is for and what it's actually for.




This would also remove the whole my opinion/your opinion back and forth which does constructive discussion about the awards no good.  

Nigel


----------



## malladin (Jul 12, 2006)

DaveMage said:
			
		

> *In that case, the term "Campaign Setting" needs to be defined.*
> 
> To me, a campaign setting details a campaign world or large part thereof.  It also lists a full pantheon, details the nations within the world (or large part thereof) and details (briefly or extensively) the history of each.  *If your (or, more specifically the ENNies as a whole) definition is something else (which is fine), then it needs to be stated for the benefit of the awards.  *
> 
> ...


----------



## Cthulhu's Librarian (Jul 12, 2006)

DaveMage said:
			
		

> In that case, the term "Campaign Setting" needs to be defined.




Agreed



> To me, a campaign setting details a campaign world or large part thereof.  It also lists a full pantheon, details the nations within the world (or large part thereof) and details (briefly or extensively) the history of each.  If your (or, more specifically the ENNies as a whole) definition is something else (which is fine), then it needs to be stated for the benefit of the awards.




Not necessarily. I own several "campaign settings" which are neither a large part of a world, or contain a pantheon of gods. What if the world assumes the real world, but with changes, and the religions that exist on it? Would World of Darkness be excluded? what about settings that assume that religion is not a part of the world? What about something set in the modern world, in a genre that is not fantasy? A Pantheon of gods is a pretty poor thing to have as a requirement for a setting. 



> "Setting supplement" and all other terms should also be defined.




Also agreed


----------



## DaveMage (Jul 12, 2006)

Cthulhu's Librarian said:
			
		

> A Pantheon of gods is a pretty poor thing to have as a requirement for a setting.




All I play is fantasy/D&D, so for me, it's a big requirement.  My clerics get depressed when there are no gods to worship.

Again, it's OK if this is not part of your definition - or anyone else's - but it would be helpful to know what *is* part of the definition for the sake of the awards.


----------



## malladin (Jul 12, 2006)

I think the specifics of a defination are unimportant to the current discussion, but the general agreement Dave & CL about the need for definations is the important point and its good to see. Dealing these issues dealt through discussion rather than just I'm right, your wrong, who cares what you think etc, which only causes friction, is really positive and good for the thread.  Wow, I've finally had a positive reason to post, cool   

Nigel


----------



## Psion (Jul 12, 2006)

> I also notice that Artesia is in both Best Game and Best setting. It is marketed/advertised as a full game, thus I would say it belongs under full game.




I disagree with this. Some "games" are marketing with settings, some are not. Spycraft 2.0 has no setting, for example. It would have been wrong to judge as a setting. This is different than, say, Blue Rose, which has a setting and, as the author professes, the setting is the major point. The change in the game mechanics were principally to support the setting.

If I offer up the gaming public a list of what are judged to be the best in various categories, and I use this "mutual exclusion" principle, then I am in essence, not offering the public my best, because I am not considering some of the best settings out there merely because they are marketed as part of a game.

I find this "mutual exclusion principle" faulty (except in cases where it makes sense, and there are some) and feel that operating by it across the board would diminish the value of the awards.


----------



## Cthulhu's Librarian (Jul 12, 2006)

malladin said:
			
		

> I think the specifics of a defination are unimportant to the current discussion, but the general agreement Dave & CL about the need for definations is the important point and its good to see. Dealing these issues dealt through discussion rather than just I'm right, your wrong, who cares what you think etc, which only causes friction, is really positive and good for the thread.  Wow, I've finally had a positive reason to post, cool




I agree that we need definitions, but I will say that when the judges decided on the definitions for this years categories, we thought we had made it clear enough what was expected for a given category. We wanted them to be broad enough to include all titles that could reasonably fit, while being narrow enough to eliminate things that didn't fit. We went back and forth on categories, definitions,a nd acceptable wording wuite a bit, and in the end, we provided what we thought were useful, reasonable definitions that we would be comfortable working within. Obviously, those definitions, while we were all in agreement (along with the Board fo Directors), were not found to be specific enough for some people. There is a balance point, and I am confident that it can be reached. 

However, one thing that I will point out, the judges have always, and will always, have the right to move titles into or remove them from any categories. If, upon reading, they find that a title fits into a category where it was not entered, but they are all in agreement, that title can be moved into that category.


----------



## JoeGKushner (Jul 12, 2006)

DaveMage said:
			
		

> In that case, the term "Campaign Setting" needs to be defined.
> 
> To me, a campaign setting details a campaign world or large part thereof.  It also lists a full pantheon, details the nations within the world (or large part thereof) and details (briefly or extensively) the history of each.  If your (or, more specifically the ENNies as a whole) definition is something else (which is fine), then it needs to be stated for the benefit of the awards.
> 
> "Setting supplement" and all other terms should also be defined.




For me, the definition would probably be a lot smaller. Can I run campaigns based in or off/around this material. I've run adventurers in Carse, Tulan, Eldrad, and Haven for example, all city based books. A campaign can be a 'micro' shot of a setting too. Some books try to put a 'generic' spin on things so that the GM can 'add' his touches. A smaller setting piece, say like those found in Troll Lords Cities & Settlements, doesn't necessarily have to define everything to be useful in my opinion. Just define enough to be useful.

For Pantheons... as some settings, like that of Unknown Armies, is well away from Fantasy, or others that may lean heavily on other modern settings or sci-fi might not have a panethon, I see that as a very limited set of criteria.

I agree that 'clearer' defintions wouldn't hurt though.


----------



## Psion (Jul 12, 2006)

> I agree that 'clearer' defintions wouldn't hurt though.




Man law?


----------



## Umbran (Jul 12, 2006)

Dextra said:
			
		

> Honestly, I'm glad for the discussion and constructive criticism.  However I'm going to ignore it for now.  There's no time for reform between this moment and when I get back from Gen Con.




You are wise.  This is an entirely appropriate approach.  

Discussion right now is important, because it will catch a lot of things while the details are fresh in people's minds.  You don't need to use it now.  But next year, the relevant folks can come back and look these discussions over, and consider the ideas presented.


----------



## DaveMage (Jul 12, 2006)

Cthulhu's Librarian said:
			
		

> I agree that we need definitions, but I will say that when the judges decided on the definitions for this years categories, we thought we had made it clear enough what was expected for a given category. We wanted them to be broad enough to include all titles that could reasonably fit, while being narrow enough to eliminate things that didn't fit. We went back and forth on categories, definitions,a nd acceptable wording wuite a bit, and in the end, we provided what we thought were useful, reasonable definitions that we would be comfortable working within. Obviously, those definitions, while we were all in agreement (along with the Board fo Directors), were not found to be specific enough for some people. There is a balance point, and I am confident that it can be reached.
> 
> However, one thing that I will point out, the judges have always, and will always, have the right to move titles into or remove them from any categories. If, upon reading, they find that a title fits into a category where it was not entered, but they are all in agreement, that title can be moved into that category.




I would also add, just so there's no confusion, that I fully support the judges and ENnies producers coming up with the definitions and putting whatever products wherever they want as long as it fits the category definition.

(And for the record, I think Shackled City is among the best adventure products ever made for D&D, so I certainly don't have a problem with it being considered for multiple awards.)


----------



## nakia (Jul 12, 2006)

I just wanted to add my congratulations to the nominees and those that received honorable mentions.

And give big thanks to the judges and Board of Directors.


----------



## hong (Jul 12, 2006)

Psion said:
			
		

> Man law?



 Worst Rolemaster expansion. EVER.


----------



## Vocenoctum (Jul 12, 2006)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> For me, the definition would probably be a lot smaller. Can I run campaigns based in or off/around this material. <snip>Just define enough to be useful.
> 
> For Pantheons... as some settings, like that of Unknown Armies, is well away from Fantasy, or others that may lean heavily on other modern settings or sci-fi might not have a panethon, I see that as a very limited set of criteria.
> 
> I agree that 'clearer' defintions wouldn't hurt though.




I would say a campaign setting is a product that will allow you to run a campaign there with no other setting material needed from elsewhere. Cauldron is well developed, and I can see it being a setting expansion maybe, but not a setting as such. I think it comes down to, would you buy the product for the setting, or the adventure. For Shackled City, I think the city is indeed just a place to have the adventure, where Ptolus is a city that happens to have a premade adventure set there. It gets subjective sure, but since we're basically talking about 5 judges opinions anyway, how can the process not be subjective? I think close categories like Adventure and Setting should have a line drawn though, since too much overlap is counter productive.


----------



## Numion (Jul 12, 2006)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> I would say a campaign setting is a product that will allow you to run a campaign there with no other setting material needed from elsewhere.




In this sense Shackled City is a campaign setting. Phanteon is in the core books of D&D, and nothing else is really required. This from actual SC DMing experience.


----------



## Teflon Billy (Jul 12, 2006)

Jonny Nexus said:
			
		

> Thank you. That's very cool to hear. I've always said that I'd rather have a magazine that 50% hated and 50% loved than one that 100% thought was okay.




Anyone who has yet to read *Critical Miss*'s "Actual Play" column about _Cyborg Commando_ should get over there and read it right now.

I laughed _hard_


----------



## ColonelHardisson (Jul 12, 2006)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> Anyone who has yet to read *Critical Miss*'s "Actual Play" column about _Cyborg Commando_ should get over there and read it right now.
> 
> I laughed _hard_




Here is the direct link:

http://www.criticalmiss.com/issue3/worst1.html


----------



## Ghostwind (Jul 12, 2006)

Whether you have concrete definitions for categories or not, I suspect much of the controversy is because gaming supplements have evolved to a point where they are no longer easily classified under a single generic label. Take Shackled City for example, it is an adventure (designed to take you from levels 1-20), city supplement, campaign setting (a self-contained world setting that needs no other source material outside ofthe 3 core books), and yet also a setting supplement because of its ability to be dropped into any existing campaign world. There are no clear boundaries here. And it is likely to only get worse as games continue to mature.


----------



## JoeGKushner (Jul 12, 2006)

It's not like the old days of 128 page adventurers were 20 pages were spend describing some village and 80 the dungeon and 28 on game stats.

As products become larger they're simply able to do more than they used to. They can wear many hats.


----------



## Umbran (Jul 12, 2006)

Ghostwind said:
			
		

> ... it is an adventure (designed to take you from levels 1-20)...




You know, I think this here may be a problem.  This is "an adventure"?  It takes you from level 1 to 20 - this is a year or so of weekly gaming sessions, right?  This is only one adventure?  While how they market it isn't defining, we can at least take it into consideration - they don't call it an adventure.  They call it an adventure _path_...

And methinks asking your regular kind of adventure to compete with this is probably like asking an orange to compete with apples.  It isn't intended to save the same purpose.


----------



## Vocenoctum (Jul 12, 2006)

Numion said:
			
		

> In this sense Shackled City is a campaign setting. Phanteon is in the core books of D&D, and nothing else is really required. This from actual SC DMing experience.



Actually, I'd still consider the "core setting" to be setting material. Shackled City doesn't provide deities for example, it just builds off of Core Setting material.

For myself, I could see making "setting supplement or mega-module" something, since Shackled City being compared to a regular adventure doesn't really seem "fair".


----------



## Turjan (Jul 12, 2006)

Umbran said:
			
		

> You know, I think this here may be a problem.  This is "an adventure"?  It takes you from level 1 to 20 - this is a year or so of weekly gaming sessions, right?  This is only one adventure?  While how they market it isn't defining, we can at least take it into consideration - they don't call it an adventure.  They call it an adventure _path_...



When I first wanted to run the Shackled City, I considered converting it to the FR. Then it came to me: Why do I want to do that? If the players find "the adventure" interesting, they will never see anything else during their whole career. It's definitely a different beast.


----------



## Ghostwind (Jul 12, 2006)

Umbran said:
			
		

> You know, I think this here may be a problem.  This is "an adventure"?  It takes you from level 1 to 20 - this is a year or so of weekly gaming sessions, right?  This is only one adventure?  While how they market it isn't defining, we can at least take it into consideration - they don't call it an adventure.  They call it an adventure _path_...
> 
> And methinks asking your regular kind of adventure to compete with this is probably like asking an orange to compete with apples.  It isn't intended to save the same purpose.




And yet more and more products are beginning to resemble this. For instance, _Rappan Athuk Reloaded_ and _World's Largest City _ are both due out this year. Certainly not your average adventures.


----------



## Rystil Arden (Jul 12, 2006)

Turjan said:
			
		

> When I first wanted to run the Shackled City, I considered converting it to the FR. Then it came to me: Why do I want to do that? If the players find "the adventure" interesting, they will never see anything else during their whole career. It's definitely a different beast.



 That might be a good idea if and only if we have enough of those megamodules coming out at a time to warrant an entire category (I believe the minimum is 9 and it is preferred that there be more than that).  It is something to think about, however.


----------



## diaglo (Jul 12, 2006)

Ghostwind said:
			
		

> And it is likely to only get worse as games continue to mature.



um... i beg to differ on this part only.

my games have been mature for years.

i kill things and take their stuff.


----------



## DaveMage (Jul 12, 2006)

Ghostwind said:
			
		

> And yet more and more products are beginning to resemble this. For instance, _Rappan Athuk Reloaded_ and _World's Largest City _ are both due out this year. Certainly not your average adventures.




Maybe we need a "Super-Sized" category.


----------



## diaglo (Jul 12, 2006)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> It's not like the old days of 128 page adventurers were 20 pages were spend describing some village and 80 the dungeon and 28 on game stats.
> 
> As products become larger they're simply able to do more than they used to.





i think i mentioned T1-4 when during this discussion. the next to worst product TSR ever released. Shady Dragon Inn being the worst. 



> They can wear many hats.




i only wear my hat of d02 normally.


----------



## Crothian (Jul 12, 2006)

DaveMage said:
			
		

> Maybe we need an "Epic" or "Super-Sized" category.




There aren't going to be enough products like that.  We have WLC, Ptolus, the DCC World, Rappan Athuk Reloaded...we'd need 5 others to have the minium for a category.  So, even if Age of Worms Adventure Path gets the Shackled City treatment, I'm just not aware of anyone else doing something that would qualify.


----------



## Pramas (Jul 12, 2006)

Crothian said:
			
		

> The reason we combined settings and setting supplements was we were not getting enough settings for that category to exist on its own.




Interesting. GR was responsible for at least three setting supplement type products this past year (Shadowspawn's Guide to Sanctuary, Freedom City 2E, and Karak Azgal for WFRP). I know Necromancer Games had Bard's Gate too.


----------



## Crothian (Jul 12, 2006)

Pramas said:
			
		

> Interesting. GR was responsible for at least three setting supplement type products this past year (Shadowspawn's Guide to Sanctuary, Freedom City 2E, and Karak Azgal for WFRP). I know Necromancer Games had Bard's Gate too.




My post is misleading, sorry about that.  It is settings we didn't have enough for not setting supplements.  The same thing happened last year.


----------



## DaveMage (Jul 13, 2006)

Crothian said:
			
		

> There aren't going to be enough products like that.  We have WLC, Ptolus, the DCC World, Rappan Athuk Reloaded...we'd need 5 others to have the minium for a category.  So, even if Age of Worms Adventure Path gets the Shackled City treatment, I'm just not aware of anyone else doing something that would qualify.





I can only think of 2 (potential) others: 
Accordlands & Castle Blackmoor


----------



## Steel_Wind (Jul 13, 2006)

Perhaps the discussion of Adventure vs. Campaign Setting is beside the point.

I think the point is something else entirely: the perception that a Paizo monster product could be considered for two different main categories allows them to win both (in all probability) and then grab the Product of the year as well.

Is _Who Framed Roger Rabbit _ a live action movie? Yes. Is it an animated movie? Undoubtedly. Should it be eligible to win an Oscar in both categories? 

No - and that's the real practical point under discussion.

Suggestion: if this is with respect to "main category" the judges can pick one.  It is also eligible for Product of the year if it qualifies, of course.

The exclusion rule ought to apply to main categories : it should not apply if you are talking about *technical* awards. This means that a product can have only one main category nomination - but if it's interior artwork is up to snuff - it can still qualify for an award for that too (or some other technical award it qualifies for, say, maps).

This really does address the essence of the main complaint here.  Rasyr sees his Cyradon got an honorable mention and was on the edge of getting in for Best Setting. He didn't make it in - and instead saw _SCAP_ in "his" category as well as another "main" category. This struck him as both unexpected and unjust and off we go...

If the judges do not perceive the essence of the complaint as a response to a perceived injustice - then that's another issue entirely - and one to be resolved in the fullness of time after the passage of same.


----------



## diaglo (Jul 13, 2006)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> Suggestion: if this is with respect to "main category" the judges can pick one.  It is also eligible for Product of the year if it qualifies, of course.





what's a main category? is this on the ENnie site?

even with the oscars the media may pick a few main ones they feel are more important. but the guy winning best musical score or being nominated for it shouldn't be upset about not winning best actor. mostly he is just happy that people felt his work... the musical score was the best out there for that year.

i voted for all of the categories with the thought that people put a lot of work into their products. i commend those who entered. even the stuff i felt i would never buy i read all the way thru and with gusto. i wasn't gonna do this thing (being voted in as a judge) half arsed. and i stand by all of my votes. every last one of them.


----------



## Vocenoctum (Jul 13, 2006)

diaglo said:
			
		

> even with the oscars the media may pick a few main ones they feel are more important. but the guy winning best musical score or being nominated for it shouldn't be upset about not winning best actor. mostly he is just happy that people felt his work... the musical score was the best out there for that year.



It's more about the Roger Rabbit question. Could it be nominated for "Best Live Action" as well as "Best Animated"?


----------



## Pramas (Jul 13, 2006)

Crothian said:
			
		

> My post is misleading, sorry about that.  It is settings we didn't have enough for not setting supplements.  The same thing happened last year.




Ah, I see. Guess I should have submitted more Mythic Vistas titles.


----------



## woodelf (Jul 13, 2006)

righteousfist said:
			
		

> Er....do the category guidelines for the "Best d20 Product" category take into account that over half of the nominees in this category are not released under the d20 brand? It's just a bit confusing to see one of our games (_Mutants & Masterminds_) in a d20 category when it is specifically and completely NOT d20 affiliated. It's an OGL game. Is this just a differencein semantics?




D20 System brand? nope. D20 System games? yep.

M&MM uses a whole lot of stuff out of the D20 SRD. That makes it anything but "specifically and completely NOT d20 affiliated". It's very strongly affiliated. It just doesn't happen to bear the D20 System logo.


----------



## woodelf (Jul 13, 2006)

righteousfist said:
			
		

> I think simply calling it "Best d20 or OGL Game" would solve the problem, and alleviate a lot of head-scratching.
> 
> Hal Mangold
> Director of Production
> ...




Except that the Action! Core Rules is an OGL game. And clearly does not belong in that category. There's nothing that says that a game released using the WotC OGL has to be D20 System, but the reverse is definitely true. While you are legally obligated to make a big difference between games bearing the D20 System logo and those that don't, from the consumer's perspective, the distinction is at best moot and at worst misleading--Arcana Evolved is pretty much plug-n-play compatible with D&D3.5E, but doesn't bear a D20 System logo, while Spycraft is pretty much incompatible with D&D3.5E (or D&D3E, which was current when it was released), yet bears the D20 System logo. And, really, the degree of mechanical difference between M&MM and D&D3.5E is less than between some D20 System logoed games, so it doesn't even reflect the degree to which you'll have to relearn when picking up a new game.

For that matter, what about Shadows of Yesterday? It's released using *an* OGL--specifically, one of the Creative Commons licenses. Heck, when i was submitting Dread, i felt I had to double-check that what they wanted in the "Best D20/OGL Game" category was really D20 System games, with or without the D20 System Logo, rather than open-game-license games (with or without D20 System), since Dread is the latter. 

Unfortunately, WotC chose crappy terminology in several cases when inventing the WotC OGL and D20STL, and now we're stuck with it. Fortunately, i really don't think there's much need to distinguish between D20 System games bearing the logo, and those not, on a general basis. Much more useful would be distinguishing between D&D add-ons and things that aren't intended to be directly compatible with D&D, but there's no easy, WotC OGL-compatible way to do that (due to the draconian trademark restrictions)


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## Steel_Wind (Jul 13, 2006)

diaglo said:
			
		

> what's a main category? is this on the ENnie site?




Yes it is.

The elements that make up the products: Best Cover Art | Best Interior Art | Best Cartography | Best Production Values | Best Writing | Best Rules 

(this is a technical award). You should be eligible for more than one here, as every product uses these elements in making their product. If you prefer to use the best actor/best actress analogy - it applies here. Each "product by content" type uses actors and actresses too.


Type of products by content:  Best Adventure | Best Supplement | Best Campaign/Campaign Supplement | Best Adversary/Monster Product 

(this is a main category): This is not a best actor, best actress situation, in my opinion. It's a Best Picture, Best Animated Picture (short) Best Animated (long), Best Animated (feature) analogy.  

Choose One.  The fact it may qualify for more than one is not the point. The point is  - *choose one*. 

The genesis of the discussion was that Rasyr perceived it to be unjust that one could be nominated for more than one categoy in a "product by content" category.

While you may not agree with him Diaglo - I do very much see his point.  This ought to be revisited in the Fall.


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## Numion (Jul 13, 2006)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> Type of products by content: Best Adventure | Best Supplement | Best Campaign/Campaign Supplement | Best Adversary/Monster Product
> 
> (this is a main category): This is not a best actor, best actress situation, in my opinion. It's a Best Picture, Best Animated Picture (short) Best Animated (long), Best Animated (feature) analogy.




Gaming products aren't as limited in content and format as movies are. Why would we want to ape the Oscars? IMO the analogy doesn't work completely.

Whoop-de-doo if this causes someone to 'miss' a nomination. Not every product is 'entitled' to be nominated (in fact no product is entitled to anything.) If SC works better as a campaign setting than most other products, I think it should get the nomination. If, on top of that, it's a better adventure (path) than most others, it should be nominated as such too.


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## Jonny Nexus (Jul 13, 2006)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> Anyone who has yet to read *Critical Miss*'s "Actual Play" column about _Cyborg Commando_ should get over there and read it right now.
> 
> I laughed _hard_






			
				ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> Here is the direct link:
> 
> http://www.criticalmiss.com/issue3/worst1.html




Thank you! I'd say I'm very proud; except that I'm not sure one should be proud of roleplaying that bad.


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## Orcus (Jul 13, 2006)

I agree with Steel Wind.

My main gripe about SCAP being in the Best Campaign/Setting Supplement is that it will most likely win and that means our Wilderlands Boxed Set--which in my view is 100% campaign setting unlike SCAP's 15%--wont win. 

People will vote for SCAP in any category it is nominated in. Period. Even if it doesnt represent the best of that category.

I understand why SCAP was "nominated" but that doesnt mean it should win the category. IMHO (and I concede clear bias  ) Wilderlands Boxed Set is absolutely what Best Campaign Setting Supplement is all about and is the clear winner in that group. Or should be.

I agree that categories need better definition. By the same logic that SCAP goes in that category, then you should put WLD there. And that seems silly. 

My hope is that this community is a discriminating community. And that it will say "yes, SCAP is an adventure and it is the best. It wins for that. And it will say yes, SCAP may be the best overall product out this year. It wins for that. But when I really ask: is it the BEST campaign setting, the answer is no. I understand why it was nominated, but the answer is no. Wilderlands Boxed Set is the best campaign setting." 

So prove me wrong. Vote for Wilderlands for Campaign Setting. 

I am only half joking, by the way. I have mostly resigned myself that Wilderlands will get lost behind SCAP. Because SCAP is a great product. Heck, I am actually running an SCAP campaign right now myself (because I have used the Wilderlands for years and years and years). And I certainly fear that people will simply vote for it no matter what category it is in and no matter whether it is the best fit to win that particular category. You can defend SCAP's nomination, but at least as I define the category, I dont know that it makes sense for it to win that category.

But that is the beauty of the ENNies. It doesnt matter what I think. It matters what the voters think. And they will definately tell us. So I guess instead of posting here I should start my own "Let SCAP Win Everything Else, But Vote Wilderlands for Best Campaign Supplement!" thread. 



By the way, many thanks to the judges for their hard work and Dextra and Co for another great round of nominations. It is truly an honor to be nominated so many times. It is really great to be in the company of so many other cool products. We publishers are all a bit competitive and all really passionate about our products and so we all want the best shot at recognition for our products (and having SCAP in the category against your personal favorite definately bites  ). But that shouldnt cloud the fact that there really are a great, great set of products in the running this year and we should all step back and soak in the coolness of all these products.

Clark

PS: If not already obvious, I am clearly biased in favor of the Wilderlands.


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## Orcus (Jul 13, 2006)

Wow, did I really just use that many smiley faces? 

Sorry about that.

Clark


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## Numion (Jul 13, 2006)

Orcus said:
			
		

> I agree with Steel Wind.
> 
> My main gripe about SCAP being in the Best Campaign/Setting Supplement is that it will most likely win and that means our Wilderlands Boxed Set--which in my view is 100% campaign setting unlike SCAP's 15%--wont win.




Maybe they should have a lower limit on word count for something to be considered a campaign setting. Percentages aren't that useful. And, SCAP does include campaign world information in the adventures too. Similarly to Enemy Within campaign for WFRP 1E - probably the first campaign setting and adventure in same covers.



> People will vote for SCAP in any category it is nominated in. Period. Even if it doesnt represent the best of that category.




Is your gripe with people voting 'wrong'?  :\


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## Turjan (Jul 13, 2006)

Numion said:
			
		

> Is your gripe with people voting 'wrong'?  :\



I suppose it's just the realization that people will vote for what they know . SCAP is simply the product with the widest name recognition in most of the categories where it is nominated.

Edit: It's telling, btw, that only SCAP is considered competition .


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## Numion (Jul 13, 2006)

Turjan said:
			
		

> I suppose it's just the realization that people will vote for what they know . SCAP is simply the product with the widest name recognition in most of the categories where it is nominated.




I still think it would be a strange argument to deny one product competing in a category because "That's what people will vote".

Besides, I wouldn't be sure about SC winning. A lot of people have a grudge against WotC, and that is bound to carry over to Paizo.


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## Turjan (Jul 13, 2006)

Numion said:
			
		

> I still think it would be a strange argument to deny one product competing in a category because "That's what people will vote".
> 
> Besides, I wouldn't be sure about SC winning. A lot of people have a grudge against WotC, and that is bound to carry over to Paizo.



I suppose that the number of WotC fans is substantially higher than the number of those people with a grudge against them. But, of course, posts like Clark's would be more frequent if WotC themselves had actually submitted product to the ENnies .

There are a few things in the world where you cannot really change much about. Most people will vote without knowing all candidates; that's a given, I suppose, and I will be no exception. This makes the prediction of likely winners a bit easier. From my side, this is no complaint. It's just a little bit of regret, but in the full knowledge that there is no better way. That's life.


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## woodelf (Jul 13, 2006)

[i had a longer, more in-depth post here, but my webbrowser crashed, so the 2nd time around it's a bit briefer.]



			
				HellHound said:
			
		

> I think the real issue is that this attempt at constructive change is being spearheaded by a major stakeholder in the awards - the companies themselves. You can't just ignore your stakeholders when you run something.




Actually, the only people who should really have a say in the awards are the fans & consumers. The publishers most definitely should _not_ be making any of the decisions. It's precisely those being judged also deciding how the judging should occur that has ruined many other awards, both RPG and otherwise. And by 'ruined', i mean making them irrelevant to the people they're supposed to be informing: the fans/consumers.

So, yes, you *can* just ignore the companies. It's the companies who can't just ignore the awards (or, at least, that's the way it should be). The communication path sholud be the consumers/fans telling the awards ceremony how to do things, and then the awards criteria influencing how the publishers behave. It's perfectly acceptable for the publishers to tailor their products to the awards--in fact, if the awards are doing their job (reflecting fan/consumer priorities), it's a very good thing--but the awards should not be tailoring their criteria to the publisher's demands/desires. 

Now, that's in a perfect world. In the actual RPG world, the line between consumer and publisher is mighty slim, and plenty of people outright obliterate that line. So what that means is we just need to consider the motives and impact of criticisms/suggestions, since simply considering the source won't be sufficient. IOW, while my comments as a publisher should be ignored, or at least given minimal weight, my comments as a consumer should be taken seriously. And i'll do my best to be honest in differentiating between the two, and the awards people have to exercise some judgement in determining if i've succeeded. And i think we can trust most other publishers/creators in this industry to do the same--as evidenced by several comments in this thread, already.


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## woodelf (Jul 13, 2006)

Turjan said:
			
		

> I suppose that the number of WotC fans is substantially higher than the number of those people with a grudge against them. But, of course, posts like Clark's would be more frequent if WotC themselves had actually submitted product to the ENnies .




I'm not convinced of that. At least, if people are really nominating and voting based on what they perceive as the best quality. Off the top of my head, i can't think of any 'best' products out of WotC in the last year. 'Good'? Yes, lots. 'Great'? a few. But nothing that just blows me away, or is clearly best-in-class. Now, given that the ENnies, from this stage forward (that is, after the nominations) is basically a popularity contest, i suspect any WotC products that got through the nominations process would win disproportionately. But i'm not sure all that many would have gotten nominated--certainly, if i were one of the judges, none of them would've [by me]. Not that i think my tastes are automatically representative. 



> There are a few things in the world where you cannot really change much about. Most people will vote without knowing all candidates; that's a given, I suppose, and I will be no exception. This makes the prediction of likely winners a bit easier. From my side, this is no complaint. It's just a little bit of regret, but in the full knowledge that there is no better way. That's life.




There _is_ a better way. IMHO, the same thing applies to the ENnies that i've been espousing for the Origins Awards for around 3 years now: popular voting for the nominations, judge voting for the winners (i.e., the exact opposite of the current ENnies procedure). Popular voting to get things on the ballot assures that obscure games don't get missed--they all have *some* fans, *somewhere*. Empaneled judges determining the winners assures that it isn't just a popularity contest--if we want to know what's the most popular, we already know, more or less--it's the thing that sold the most. But if we want to know what's best, we need a process that tries to weed out the influence of popularity. And, it seems to me, the whole point of awards is precisely to do this--to measure something *other* than popularity.

Now, just to be clear, i'm not wholly upset with the current process. The fact that a select group of judges decides the nominations is almost as good as doing it the other way 'round, IMHO. It still means that the winner will be the most popular, vice the best, of the nominated products, but at least we know all of the nominees will be the best of their class, even if the voting won't necessarily rank them accurately within that best-ness. All of this speaking in the ideal case, of course--i'm speaking to what happens if the model works optimally, which may or may not happen in the real world.

Also, in the interest of clarity, i'm not saying that best and most popular are mutually exclusive. Rather, it's just that neither are they necessarily identical. The most-popular product *can be* the best, but you can't count on it.


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## woodelf (Jul 13, 2006)

Orcus said:
			
		

> By the way, many thanks to the judges for their hard work and Dextra and Co for another great round of nominations. It is truly an honor to be nominated so many times. It is really great to be in the company of so many other cool products. We publishers are all a bit competitive and all really passionate about our products and so we all want the best shot at recognition for our products (and having SCAP in the category against your personal favorite definately bites  ).




I've got *no* sympathy for you. Dread's up against Spycraft 2.0 and M&MM2. You know, the game that got me, a don't-like-espionage-genre don't-like-high-crunch-games gamer, dying to play crunchy spies; and the game that has Hero diehards switching to it for their supers gaming. I mean, we're talking perhaps the two best D20 System games to date, and a couple of the best RPGs of all time. And that's not even considering the other exceptionally fine products (Artesia, A Game of Thrones RPG, ShadowRun 4th, and Aces & Eights) in the categories. Heck, i've got a game in the running, and i'm still not 100% sure what i should vote for (though i think i know what'll win out in the end, for me  ). And have i mentioned that Dread is a small-small-publisher's product, with around 100 total copies having ever been sold? Not exactly a good position to be in when it comes to the popular vote part of the contest.   But, damn, am i flattered!



> But that shouldnt cloud the fact that there really are a great, great set of products in the running this year and we should all step back and soak in the coolness of all these products.




Yeah, what he said. This is one of the few times (with the Origins *or* ENnies) when, setting aside my personal preferences, i can look at nearly every product in most categories and say 'they're all so good i don't know who i think should win.' Usually, there are a few products that i can't figure out how they made the cut, and/or a product or two that so clearly outshines the rest as to be a clear winner. Not so much this year. Certainly not in the categories i've paid the most attention to (those Dread is in). And, in all seriousness, despite my pessimism about Dread's chances of actually winning, i sincerely _am_ honored to have even been nominated, especially given the uniformly excellent calibre of the games we're up against. Finding this out Monday night was the coolest, most-happyifying surprise i've gotten in years. No matter who wins.


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## woodelf (Jul 13, 2006)

JoeBlank said:
			
		

> Kudos to the nominees, and the honorable mentions!
> 
> And countless thanks to the judges, and to Dextra, and all the others who give of their time to make the ENnies happen. As Pramas mentioned, you guys have helped to bring the ENnies from simple fansite awards to "without a doubt the most prestigious RPG award in the game industry now." That is high praise. Keep up the good work!




Well, i'd argue the Diana Jones Award is the most-prestigious award an RPG can get, but, yeah, the ENnies are right up there. Heck, the fact that a non-traditional, super-small-press, not-published-by-an-established-company, not-Forge-affiliated, RPG can get nominated has significantly upped my opinion of the validity of the ENnies as being quality-driven rather than popularity-driven (as so many awards are). And this would be true even if that super-small-press RPG hadn't been mine.


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## diaglo (Jul 13, 2006)

Orcus said:
			
		

> My main gripe about SCAP being in the Best Campaign/Setting Supplement is that it will most likely win and that means our Wilderlands Boxed Set--which in my view is 100% campaign setting unlike SCAP's 15%--wont win.




i don't know about that assumption.

i know i had much love for the Wilderlands even though it was d02.


edit: and on the adventure side i voted for the The Whispering Cairn from the Age of Worms adventure path in #124 over SC.


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## Psion (Jul 13, 2006)

woodelf said:
			
		

> Actually, the only people who should really have a say in the awards are the fans & consumers. The publishers most definitely should _not_ be making any of the decisions.




And yet, the credibility of the awards is largely informed by how many publishers choose to participate.


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## Jonny Nexus (Jul 13, 2006)

Psion said:
			
		

> And yet, the credibility of the awards is largely informed by how many publishers choose to participate.




Who did and who didn't participate?

I know Mongoose didn't (and I'm aware that people have "varying" opinions on Mongoose products, but I've heard very good things - for example - about stuff like The Drow War campaign).


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## Psion (Jul 13, 2006)

Jonny Nexus said:
			
		

> Who did and who didn't participate?




I beleive those who entered are a matter of public record, though I couldn't point you too the page right off. Perhaps some kind soul who doesn't have to walk out the door in 30 seconds could pull up a link.


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## Psion (Jul 13, 2006)

woodelf said:
			
		

> Well, i'd argue the Diana Jones Award is the most-prestigious award an RPG can get, but, yeah, the ENnies are right up there. Heck, the fact that a non-traditional, super-small-press, not-published-by-an-established-company, not-Forge-affiliated, RPG can get nominated has significantly upped my opinion of the validity of the ENnies as being quality-driven rather than popularity-driven (as so many awards are). And this would be true even if that super-small-press RPG hadn't been mine.




Well, on the flipside, I think the fact that an award with independant sensibilities recognized a rules-heavy d20 derivative game instead of a forge-derived product upped my opinion of the validity of the Diana Jones Award.


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## diaglo (Jul 13, 2006)

Jonny Nexus said:
			
		

> Who did and who didn't participate?





i think it is on this page: http://www.dreadgazebo.com/ennies06/links.html


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## DaveMage (Jul 13, 2006)

woodelf said:
			
		

> Actually, the only people who should really have a say in the awards are the fans & consumers.




It's been made very clear that Gen Con is helping to finance these awards and has set certain parameters for the awards.  

The fans get to vote (and gripe if we want), but we don't get a final say (although we can certrainly make helpful suggestions).  Decisions are up to the judges within the parameters set by the producers.  (And, frankly, without the producers funding these awards, they ain't happening.)


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## kigmatzomat (Jul 13, 2006)

Actually I don't have a problem with judges vs. internet voting.  Voting is not a simple thing to do as there are various ways to stuff the ballot boxes.  And no, I don't mean publishers are prone to do it but that a few intrepid fanboys might, kinda like Lazlo manhandling the Frito Lay's "enter as many times as you'd like" sweepstakes.  

Maybe some more clarification or at least guidance wouldn't hurt, like telling publishers if they can enter a product under multiple categories and what the normal expectations are of a category.  IMO it should not be a bullet point list of qualifications ("settings *must* contain dieties, rely on core system dieties or be athiestic") but an idea of what the judges are typically expecting. 

Why no hard & fast rules?  I want that completely unconventional, breaks-all-the-standard-tropes product to be able to win rather than being disqualified on a technicality.  It can't win if it can't enter.  

And the truth is that I think the judges get the spirit of the categories.  Can a gamer use this in a particular way?  No?  Then it's a crappy product for that role even if it has high production values.


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## Arnwyn (Jul 13, 2006)

woodelf said:
			
		

> Empaneled judges determining the winners assures that it isn't just a popularity contest--if we want to know what's the most popular, we already know, more or less--it's the thing that sold the most. But if we want to know what's best, we need a process that tries to weed out the influence of popularity. And, it seems to me, the whole point of awards is precisely to do this--to measure something *other* than popularity.



I was under the impression that the current voting system already addresses this.


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## ColonelHardisson (Jul 13, 2006)

Jonny Nexus said:
			
		

> I know Mongoose didn't (and I'm aware that people have "varying" opinions on Mongoose products, but I've heard very good things - for example - about stuff like The Drow War campaign).




I wonder why Mongoose didn't participate? Their stuff has gotten better and better over the years, especially their OGL stuff, specifically their licensed products: Conan and Babylon 5, and Starship Troopers seems to have a strong following also.


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## Vocenoctum (Jul 13, 2006)

woodelf said:
			
		

> Actually, the only people who should really have a say in the awards are the fans & consumers. The publishers most definitely should _not_ be making any of the decisions. It's precisely those being judged also deciding how the judging should occur that has ruined many other awards, both RPG and otherwise. And by 'ruined', i mean making them irrelevant to the people they're supposed to be informing: the fans/consumers.



I think the problem with the ENnies is simply that it draws on ENWorld so much. You have judges drawn from the insular forum, which often comes down to popularity, making decisions based on what is submitted to them, and then a popularity vote on which of those products is the best.
Sure it's the "best award of the RPG Industry", but that's more because of the size of the "industry" than the awards themselves.

The relevance of the awards has been debated in previous years, and I'm sure it will be again. If publishers see their product being pushed aside by things and decide not to submit next year, then the pool becomes smaller and the consumer sees it. If Mongoose and WotC don't bother submitting, how much do the awards actually matter for overall representation of the hobby?


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## Vocenoctum (Jul 13, 2006)

Numion said:
			
		

> Is your gripe with people voting 'wrong'?  :\



I think it's more than folks will vote for "Best Product" every vote. Rather than voting for Shackled City for it's Setting material when it calls for Setting, they'll still vote for "Best Product".


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## Turjan (Jul 13, 2006)

ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> I wonder why Mongoose didn't participate? Their stuff has gotten better and better over the years, especially their OGL stuff, specifically their licensed products: Conan and Babylon 5, and Starship Troopers seems to have a strong following also.



I suppose Vocenectum gave the answer. If most of the voters come from the EN World pool, it's probably a futile endeavor for them, given the general attitude towards them, regardless whether that attitude is justified or not.


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## Psion (Jul 13, 2006)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> The relevance of the awards has been debated in previous years, and I'm sure it will be again. If publishers see their product being pushed aside by things and decide not to submit next year, then the pool becomes smaller and the consumer sees it. If Mongoose and WotC don't bother submitting, how much do the awards actually matter for overall representation of the hobby?




Mearls has opined that WotC not submitting to the ennies gives a chance for smaller publishers to shine.

While I still think it would be good for WotC to participate, in a way I see the point. Witness the fear and loathing over Shackled City, which while not WotC published, is (c) WotC and has a voting block consisting of the Dungeon readership. If it had been, oh, Barakus in the same shoes, nobody would have likely complained about its presence. Now imagine if WotC put products in the mix... you have the same thing to a bigger degree. So while I'd like to see WotC participate, I don't know if I have a good way to handle the implications.

Now, that said, what are White Wolf and Palladium? Chopped liver? 

In the end, if you try to see the awards as deriving the best products, you probably won't get what you are looking for.

If you are looking for the most loved products, you won't get what you are looking for.

If you are looking for the awards as being a way for the fans to express their appreciation for a good job by the creative forces behind some great products, and to give a bit more exposure to under-appreciated games, then you might find yourself a bit happier in the end.


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## Psion (Jul 13, 2006)

Turjan said:
			
		

> I suppose Vocenectum gave the answer. If most of the voters come from the EN World pool, it's probably a futile endeavor for them, given the general attitude towards them, regardless whether that attitude is justified or not.




If there is a place that can complain about products, it's ENWorld.

But I think it would be a mistake for Mongoose to assume that they are somehow targeted to the exclusion of other companies. There's plenty of whining on enworld to go around. 

I've seen no lack of love for Conan 'round these parts, for example.


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## diaglo (Jul 13, 2006)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> I think the problem with the ENnies is simply that it draws on ENWorld so much. You have judges drawn from the insular forum, which often comes down to popularity, making decisions based on what is submitted to them, and then a popularity vote on which of those products is the best.





w00t. i'm a popular insular judge. are you sure we are talking about the same judges?

maybe we need to get more people to enter next year for the judge contest. the reason i entered and won i guess was my outspoken hat of d02. i was tired of the same old same old. and i finally got a chance to have my say and be heard.


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## Vocenoctum (Jul 13, 2006)

Psion said:
			
		

> Mearls has opined that WotC not submitting to the ennies gives a chance for smaller publishers to shine.



I've seen that, and it's possible. They might also not want to get entangled financially. It's also possible they gave it a mercenary look and said "will the expense recoup the costs" and found it wouldn't.

I do remember the year WotC products were ineligible for a lot of the awards, simply because the awards were all D20/OGL and they didn't "qualify". I don't think they've submitted since then, but not sure that it matters, given WotC's personaly turnovers since then.



> While I still think it would be good for WotC to participate, in a way I see the point. Witness the fear and loathing over Shackled City, which while not WotC published, is (c) WotC and has a voting block consisting of the Dungeon readership. If it had been, oh, Barakus in the same shoes, nobody would have likely complained about its presence.



Possibly true, but almost EVERYTHING gets whipped over on the forums here, so I wouldn't take that bet. 
That said, I'm sure my dislike of Shackled City is partly responsible for me entering this discussion, though not for my continueing to debate. (It just seemed like folks wanted to turn it into "publishers complaining" when I'm sure plenty of other folks agree with what is said.) I don't have the hardcover, but found Shackled City hard to integrate into differing playstyles and settings, way too specific, and most of the adventures were too odd to sync one after the other. Age of Worms was better for me, but the adventures lacked, IMO... that's neither here nor there though. 

(Whispering Cairn SHOULD have been best adventure, lettuce follow the wisdom of Diaglo!)


> Now imagine if WotC put products in the mix... you have the same thing to a bigger degree. So while I'd like to see WotC participate, I don't know if I have a good way to handle the implications.



I think the best answer is the tiered award (gold, silver, bronze), if WotC got the Gold and someone else got the silver, they could still be content to know it. If WotC got the silver, then they could shout from the rooftops that they beat out Product X from WotC. 



> Now, that said, what are White Wolf and Palladium? Chopped liver?



Yup, totally inconsequential. 





> If you are looking for the awards as being a way for the fans to express their appreciation for a good job by the creative forces behind some great products, and to give a bit more exposure to under-appreciated games, then you might find yourself a bit happier in the end.



I see the awards as what ENWorld likes best. That combines popularity as well as the underdog that gets championed. It's a good thing the awards are constantly evolving, IMO, but I think it should also be accepted that the "importance" of the awards isn't far beyond ENWorld, and that ENWorld is neither the center of RPGs/D20, nor representative of the hobby as a whole. They're useful and fun, though not sure they're worth the work/expense, that's not for me to judge, as I spend neither on them.


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## Vocenoctum (Jul 13, 2006)

diaglo said:
			
		

> w00t. i'm a popular insular judge. are you sure we are talking about the same judges?



You're one of the more colorful fishes in the small pond. 

My point is, the judges aren't grabbed from anywhere else, just ENworld's community.


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## ColonelHardisson (Jul 13, 2006)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> I do remember the year WotC products were ineligible for a lot of the awards, simply because the awards were all D20/OGL and they didn't "qualify". I don't think they've submitted since then, but not sure that it matters, given WotC's personaly turnovers since then.




My guess is that this is the reason they haven't submitted anything since. I think some of the same people are there from that time period.


----------



## Pramas (Jul 13, 2006)

Entering the ENnies is rather a lose/lose proposition for WotC. If they enter and win, people think, "Of course they won a popularity contest on a D&D fansite." If they enter and lose, people think, "OMG, I can't believe a company with WotC's staff and resources got beaten by a three person company!"


----------



## Mark CMG (Jul 13, 2006)

Pramas said:
			
		

> Entering the ENnies is rather a lose/lose proposition for WotC. If they enter and win, people think, "Of course they won a popularity contest on a D&D fansite." If they enter and lose, people think, "OMG, I can't believe a company with WotC's staff and resources got beaten by a three person company!"





Yup.  Until they have competition from at least one company that holds a like share of the market and has a similar level of resources, I do not think that will change.


----------



## Dextra (Jul 13, 2006)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> I think the best answer is the tiered award (gold, silver, bronze), if WotC got the Gold and someone else got the silver, they could still be content to know it. If WotC got the silver, then they could shout from the rooftops that they beat out Product X from WotC.




The ENnies do a gold and silver award.
WotC chose not to enter last year because of what they call the 800lb gorilla phenomenon.  They gave no reason this year.

There were publishers who didn't enter this year when in years past they had.  Why?  I look forward to finding out.

There were publishers, big name and small, for the first time ever.  I look forward to finding out what they thought of the experience.

Personally, I would like to draw a judge each from RPGNet and The Forge in addition to three judges from EN World.  And allow voting to be from non EN Worlders.  And a secret ballot.  But that can wait until next year.


----------



## Mark CMG (Jul 13, 2006)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> You're one of the more colorful fishes in the small pond.
> 
> My point is, the judges aren't grabbed from anywhere else, just ENworld's community.





I think that technically someone could sign up on EN World with the sole intent of running for one of the seats on the ENnies nominations committee and garner support from outside of the community to do the same just to vote them into that seat but it would probably be a tough sell.  I do not doubt that one of these years another sizeable site will set up a slate of candidates and vote at least some of them in.  Perhaps some that already spend a good (or equal) amount of time here anyway but never considered running for a seat.  Personally, I'd like to see a policy in place that at least two of the seats must be occupied by people who have never done so before.  I don't have a problem with anyone who has held a seat before doing so again, but I think a mechanism to ensure new blood each year would be a positive step.


----------



## Dextra (Jul 13, 2006)

I don't want to interfere with what is the Will of The People (ie. how people vote), but still plan on implementing a ruling by which at least one experienced and one new judge is in place each year.  That way there's guaranteed fresh blood AND experience.



			
				Mark CMG said:
			
		

> I think that technically someone could sign up on EN World with the sole intent of running for one of the seats on the ENnies nominations committee and garner support from outside of the community to do the same just to vote them into that seat but it would probably be a tough sell.  I do not doubt that one of these years another sizeable site will set up a slate of candidates and vote at least some of them in.  Perhaps some that already spend a good (or equal) amount of time here anyway but never considered running for a seat.  Personally, I'd like to see a policy in place that at least two of the seats must be occupied by people who have never done so before.  I don't have a problem with anyone who has held a seat before doing so again, but I think a mechanism to ensure new blood each year would be a positive step.


----------



## Mark (Jul 13, 2006)

Dextra said:
			
		

> I don't want to interfere with what is the Will of The People (ie. how people vote), but still plan on implementing a ruling by which at least one experienced and one new judge is in place each year.  That way there's guaranteed fresh blood AND experience.





I think that by ensuring new blood on the committee you will find you garner more new blood candidates throwing their hat in the ring.  Besides, it doesn't intefere with the will of the people.  It's just as likely that most people vote for new blood but that because there is no consensus on _which_ new blood, we see more of a faux mandate for old blood, so to speak.  It's actually possible for _everyone_ to vote for at least one new blood candidate and _never_ see any new blood on the committee.


----------



## Vocenoctum (Jul 13, 2006)

Mark said:
			
		

> I think that by ensuring new blood on the committee you will find you garner more new blood candidates throwing their hat in the ring.  Besides, it doesn't intefere with the will of the people.  It's just as likely that most people vote for new blood but that because there is no consensus on _which_ new blood, we see more of a faux mandate for old blood, so to speak.  It's actually possible for _everyone_ to vote for at least one new blood candidate and _never_ see any new blood on the committee.





We can have five tiers, one judge from each. Judge it all by Post Count! 
one judge from 1-100 posts, one judge from 101-500 posts...


----------



## Psion (Jul 13, 2006)

Dextra said:
			
		

> I don't want to interfere with what is the Will of The People (ie. how people vote), but still plan on implementing a ruling by which at least one experienced and one new judge is in place each year.  That way there's guaranteed fresh blood AND experience.




Oh, there's some blood guaranteed, alright.   

(Pictures all the prior judges competing for 4 spots...)


----------



## JoeGKushner (Jul 13, 2006)

But at the same time, some of us are old RPG.net hands too. I've got reviews over there years back for example. I know Psion's over there too, as is Corithian and others.

Heck, Necromancer and Malhavoc boards too.


----------



## Psion (Jul 13, 2006)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> But at the same time, some of us are old RPG.net hands too. I've got reviews over there years back for example. I know Psion's over there too, as is Corithian and others.




This is true. I was thinking about that. I go way back on RPGnet. It's where I got my reviewing start.

Yet somehow, I'm thinking if RPGnet put someone up, it'd be someone like Darren McClellan.

Oh, that'd be interesting.


----------



## PaulofCthulhu (Jul 13, 2006)

Jump into the thread and...

I'd just like to say again here, thanks very much to the Judges' Panel for nominating olde Yoggie in the _Best Fan Site_ category. We'll ensure Cthulhu eats you last...

Paul


----------



## diaglo (Jul 13, 2006)

Psion said:
			
		

> JoeGKushner said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




USENET, meng.

i vote for hong for next year.


----------



## Dextra (Jul 14, 2006)

*Support the ENnies!*

By the way, the first of the Sixth Pile Auctions have started.

To track them, check out:
http://www.enworld.org/ennies/support.html


----------



## woodelf (Jul 14, 2006)

DaveMage said:
			
		

> It's been made very clear that Gen Con is helping to finance these awards and has set certain parameters for the awards.




And Gen Con isn't a publisher. No conflict of interest. So, you got me technically (i should've been clear that outside financial influence is acceptable, if only because it's necessary), but the spirit of what i was trying to say still holds--the publishers shouldn't be deciding how the awards are run.

And weren't Gen Con's only parameters that the awards had to be given at GenCon, and non-D20 System games had to be eligible? Not exactly stacking the deck, if you ask me.


----------



## Clueless (Jul 14, 2006)

PaulofCthulhu said:
			
		

> Jump into the thread and...
> I'd just like to say again here, thanks very much to the Judges' Panel for nominating olde Yoggie in the _Best Fan Site_ category. We'll ensure Cthulhu eats you last...
> Paul




Ha! Like mama Shub would let him get through dinner without cleaning his plate? Or are we gonna be dessert?


----------



## DaveMage (Jul 14, 2006)

woodelf said:
			
		

> And Gen Con isn't a publisher. No conflict of interest. So, you got me technically (i should've been clear that outside financial influence is acceptable, if only because it's necessary), but the spirit of what i was trying to say still holds--the publishers shouldn't be deciding how the awards are run.
> 
> And weren't Gen Con's only parameters that the awards had to be given at GenCon, and non-D20 System games had to be eligible? Not exactly stacking the deck, if you ask me.




I believe you are correct - that's what they were last year.  However, since only the Board of Directors and (maybe) the judges are "in the know", we have no idea what subtle changes may be requried this year (if any).    Not to imply that there's anything currently inappropriate or somesuch, because there probably isn't, but there certainly could be in the future.

With Ptolus coming out next year (and currently, it would qualify for 12 or 13 of the 16 categories), it's going to be interesting to see how the categories shake out.


----------



## Ghostwind (Jul 14, 2006)

Perhaps a simple defining rule stating that a product may only be nominated for a single category in design with the exception of Best Overall Game? Or something to that effect. It means pigeon-holing some products, but then it is quite clear that you're not going to make everyone happy, publisher or fan-alike.

Hey Clark, for the record, Wilderlands gets my vote. Best damn campaign setting, period.


----------



## Cthulhu's Librarian (Jul 14, 2006)

DaveMage said:
			
		

> I believe you are correct - that's what they were last year.  However, since only the Board of Directors and (maybe) the judges are "in the know", we have no idea what subtle changes may be requried this year (if any).    Not to imply that there's anything currently inappropriate or somesuch, because there probably isn't, but there certainly could be in the future.



AFAIK, the same parameters were expected of the judges this year as they were last year, so if GenCon made any more stipulations, they were not on the judging end of things. 



			
				DaveMage said:
			
		

> With Ptolus coming out next year (and currently, it would qualify for 12 or 13 of the 16 categories), it's going to be interesting to see how the categories shake out.




That's assuming it is entered. There is no guarantee that Monte will enter it. I would hope that it gets entered, but nothing is certain until the books are in the judges hands.


----------



## DaveMage (Jul 14, 2006)

Cthulhu's Librarian said:
			
		

> That's assuming it is entered. There is no guarantee that Monte will enter it. I would hope that it gets entered, but nothing is certain until the books are in the judges hands.




True, though Malhavoc has always supported the awards so it seems unlikely that they wouldn't submit their star product.  Of course, that does mean giving $600 MSRP (total) + shipping worth of product to the 5 judges, so who knows?  (Well, Monte does.    )


----------



## DaveMage (Jul 14, 2006)

Ghostwind said:
			
		

> Perhaps a simple defining rule stating that a product may only be nominated for a single category in design with the exception of Best Overall Game? Or something to that effect. It means pigeon-holing some products, but then it is quite clear that you're not going to make everyone happy, publisher or fan-alike.
> 
> Hey Clark, for the record, Wilderlands gets my vote. Best damn campaign setting, period.




I'm not sure I'd want to limit a product to one or two awards if it really would qualify for many.  In Ptolus' case, if it really is the fine product it seems it will be, I'd hate to "punish" it for being spectacular by limiting its awards.

However, we're (myself certainly included) probably blowing this out of proportion.  The only beef I had with anything here was Shackled City being in the Campaign Setting category which I perceive as something different from the judges.  

(Go Wilderlands!)


----------



## Psion (Jul 14, 2006)

Cthulhu's Librarian said:
			
		

> AFAIK, the same parameters were expected of the judges this year as they were last year, so if GenCon made any more stipulations, they were not on the judging end of things.




The scope of what GenCon LLC requested of us extends primarily to the categories, and the nature of those requests have been relaxed for the last year. Beyond that we will remain an RPG-focused award (which was pretty much our intent anyways), GenCon's input to the judging and nominations is fairly minimal.


----------



## Jonny Nexus (Jul 14, 2006)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> I liked it best




Interestingly enough, the provisional results of an independent* survey** conducted by the website www.criticalmissforums.com is agreeing with you, with www.criticalmiss.com currently in first place.

http://criticalmissforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=373

And if you ignore all logic that's pretty cool, and even if you don't it still helps a chap raise a smile and get back in the humour groove.  

So all in all I think I can announce that Mr Whiny's been despatched back down to the basement and Mr Disappointment's been handed his gimp suit and told to join him.

* The experts at Dictionary.com define "independent" as meaning "Free from the influence, guidance, or control of another or others" but for the purposes of this post, I've decided to ignore them.

** Voters are asked to choose the best site from a list consisting of the five nominated fan sites plus the honourable mention (Critical Miss).


----------



## Col_Pladoh (Jul 14, 2006)

Now tell me this isn't hand holding and coddling those fresh young folk who play the new game  

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060714a

 
Gary


----------



## Rystil Arden (Jul 14, 2006)

Col_Pladoh said:
			
		

> Now tell me this isn't hand holding and coddling those fresh young folk who play the new game
> 
> http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060714a
> 
> ...



  I guess it isn't surprising that you would think so--why not step in to this thread on the topic and give a perspective from the original design standpoint?  

This thread is more about the ENnies, but the one I linked is all about the rust monster change, and a lively and vigorous debate it is!


----------



## Piratecat (Jul 15, 2006)

I've been asked to emcee again this year. With any luck, _this_ year I'll remember to wear pants!


----------



## Rodrigo Istalindir (Jul 15, 2006)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> I've been asked to emcee again this year. With any luck, _this_ year I'll remember to wear pants!




I'll bring the hydrochloric acid eyedrops just in case.

My memory is failing me (and I still can't search *nudge* *nudge*) -- was there a requirement that judges attend GenCon?

I suspect all this is one reason why the Emmy's and other awards shows let the potential contestants self-select which category that want to compete in.


----------



## Dextra (Jul 15, 2006)

Rodrigo Istalindir said:
			
		

> I'll bring the hydrochloric acid eyedrops just in case.
> 
> My memory is failing me (and I still can't search *nudge* *nudge*) -- was there a requirement that judges attend GenCon?
> 
> I suspect all this is one reason why the Emmy's and other awards shows let the potential contestants self-select which category that want to compete in.




No requirement for the judges to attend GenCon.  If they *do* choose to attend and take advantage of the free badge and room, then they have to work a shift at the booth, and are expected to represent the ENnies in a positive and impartial manner (so no wearing product T-shirts).


----------



## MavrickWeirdo (Jul 15, 2006)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> I've been asked to emcee again this year. With any luck, _this_ year I'll remember to wear pants!




Is that why you were standing behind Dextra and Gelfling #1?


----------



## Rodrigo Istalindir (Jul 15, 2006)

Dextra said:
			
		

> No requirement for the judges to attend GenCon.  If they *do* choose to attend and take advantage of the free badge and room, then they have to work a shift at the booth, and are expected to represent the ENnies in a positive and impartial manner (so no wearing product T-shirts).




Ah, I was mis-remembering then.  I thought about throwing my hat in the ring the last time judges were being nominated, and something stopped me but I can't remember why.


----------



## Rasyr (Jul 16, 2006)

Move sucessfully completed, and I am back online again (3+ days with no internet.... shudder....)



			
				Cthulhu's Librarian said:
			
		

> I agree that we need definitions, but I will say that when the judges decided on the definitions for this years categories, we thought we had made it clear enough what was expected for a given category. We wanted them to be broad enough to include all titles that could reasonably fit, while being narrow enough to eliminate things that didn't fit. <snip>[/QUOTE
> 
> I have an issue with the above comment. Specifically the part where it says "judges decided on the definititions for this years categories". No matter how you attempt to rephrase it, and how it comes out, it boils down to the judges determining the definitions, and it implies that they do so every year. This implies that that definition of a given category can change from year to year as well.
> 
> ...


----------



## Numion (Jul 16, 2006)

Rasyr said:
			
		

> Please let me be very explicit. I am strongly against ANY company gaming the awards system. The nomination of SCAP for both Best Adventure and Best Campaign/Campaign Supplement shows that the awards CAN be gamed.  I am NOT claiming that they were gamed this year. I most certainly do not think that Piazo intended to or tried game the system. However, I do think that the judges decisions have pointed out how it is possible to do so.




Starting to sound serious .. some conspiracy type of thing. Break out the tinfoil hats!   

I just don't see the problem. The judges should evaluate the adventure content in SC against every other adventure supplied to the contest. If it's in top 5 quality, it gets nominated. Then the judges should take the campaign content and measure it against the other campaign supplements. If it's top 5 quality, into nomination it goes.

This sounds more sensible to me than your vague accusations of "gaming" the awards


----------



## MavrickWeirdo (Jul 17, 2006)

Numion said:
			
		

> Starting to sound serious .. some conspiracy type of thing. Break out the tinfoil hats!
> 
> I just don't see the problem. The judges should evaluate the adventure content in SC against every other adventure supplied to the contest. If it's in top 5 quality, it gets nominated. Then the judges should take the campaign content and measure it against the other campaign supplements. If it's top 5 quality, into nomination it goes.
> 
> This sounds more sensible to me than your vague accusations of "gaming" the awards




But knowing the way the system works, some publisher could specifically design a great adventure, with enough background to consider it a full setting, and enough monsters to consider it a monster book...

Why is this a bad idea again?


----------



## Rystil Arden (Jul 17, 2006)

And if this publisher was somehow outstanding enough to manage to be among the very best in each category (and I don't just mean good in one category and thus automatically voted into the other ones--Shackled City isn't going to be nominated for monster book for the few monsters it has just because its an awesome adventure, for instance, and we saw that with this year's judging), should we punish this superhuman feat (yet to be achieved by anyone in my memory) by restricting the possible awards it could win to one of the categories?  Worse still, what if it loses in the one category we stuck it in but would have been the clear winner in one of the others?


----------



## Thorin Stoutfoot (Jul 17, 2006)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> And if this publisher was somehow outstanding enough to manage to be among the very best in each category (and I don't just mean good in one category and thus automatically voted into the other ones--Shackled City isn't going to be nominated for monster book for the few monsters it has just because its an awesome adventure, for instance, and we saw that with this year's judging), should we punish this superhuman feat (yet to be achieved by anyone in my memory) by restricting the possible awards it could win to one of the categories?  Worse still, what if it loses in the one category we stuck it in but would have been the clear winner in one of the others?




Quoted for Truth. I think Rasyr is just bitter that his products didn't get nominated.  I can just imagine his ire next year if (for example) Ptolus swept all the awards.


----------



## Rystil Arden (Jul 17, 2006)

Thorin Stoutfoot said:
			
		

> Quoted for Truth. I think Rasyr is just bitter that his products didn't get nominated.  I can just imagine his ire next year if (for example) Ptolus swept all the awards.



 I disagree, actually--I think he really does want to help make the awards better, I just have a different opinion than he does about what would be the better thing to do.


----------



## Numion (Jul 17, 2006)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> And if this publisher was somehow outstanding enough to manage to be among the very best in each category (and I don't just mean good in one category and thus automatically voted into the other ones--Shackled City isn't going to be nominated for monster book for the few monsters it has just because its an awesome adventure, for instance, and we saw that with this year's judging), should we punish this superhuman feat (yet to be achieved by anyone in my memory) by restricting the possible awards it could win to one of the categories?  Worse still, what if it loses in the one category we stuck it in but would have been the clear winner in one of the others?




I agree. 

If 'gaming' the system consists of such short-handed tactic as making a superior and versatile product .. [/sarcasm]


----------



## PaulofCthulhu (Jul 17, 2006)

We've recorded a new *Yog Radio* on light of the Yog-Sothoth.com _Best Fan Site_ nomination.

Yog Radio #13: ENnie 2006 Nomination (Plug-a-thon) Special

Listen by streaming (likely broadband only)

Download directly (MP3, 20.9 MB, Runtime 61:03)

Do give us a vote!  We'll be at the ENnie Awards Ceremony at Gen Con anyway.

Regards,

Paul


----------



## Vocenoctum (Jul 17, 2006)

DaveMage said:
			
		

> I'm not sure I'd want to limit a product to one or two awards if it really would qualify for many.  In Ptolus' case, if it really is the fine product it seems it will be, I'd hate to "punish" it for being spectacular by limiting its awards.
> 
> However, we're (myself certainly included) probably blowing this out of proportion.  The only beef I had with anything here was Shackled City being in the Campaign Setting category which I perceive as something different from the judges.
> 
> (Go Wilderlands!)




I think it's easy enough really, the judges shouldn't decide catagories. The publisher should simply submit to the catagory they find most appropriate.


----------



## Crothian (Jul 17, 2006)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> I think it's easy enough really, the judges shouldn't decide catagories. The publisher should simply submit to the catagory they find most appropriate.




We ask that the Publishers do, but not all of them do.  And sometimes they submit the book for one thing when it clearly should be in additional categories.  A few years ago Slaine was entered for best cover.  That was it, its a good game so I suggested we also include it in Best d20 Game.  The other judges agreed, liked it enough to nominate it, and it won the Silver that year.  In practice though Judges rarely place books in categories, we usually just leave the books where the judges place them.  In any year I'd say maybe 1-3% of items get placed in a category the Publishers didn't place it in.  And that doesn't mean it gets nominated in that category.


----------



## Teflon Billy (Jul 17, 2006)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> I think it's easy enough really, the judges shouldn't decide catagories. The publisher should simply submit to the catagory they find most appropriate.




Adding to Crothian's comment, we also see a lot of self-nominations come out as "enter this in every category"


----------



## Clueless (Jul 17, 2006)

PaulofCthulhu said:
			
		

> Do give us a vote!  We'll be at the ENnie Awards Ceremony at Gen Con anyway.
> Regards,
> Paul




Bah - does this mean we'll have to sit on opposite side of the room giving each other baleful glares until, as the inevitable happens, Planewalker wins out? *grin* 

Banter aside, I wish I'd known about you guys back when I was head admin on my MUD (Cthulhumud) - I'd've been able to recruit more players for the place before Planewalker ate my time.


----------



## dpmcalister (Jul 17, 2006)

Clueless said:
			
		

> Bah - does this mean we'll have to sit on opposite side of the room giving each other baleful glares until, as the inevitable happens, Planewalker wins out? *grin*
> 
> Banter aside, I wish I'd known about you guys back when I was head admin on my MUD (Cthulhumud) - I'd've been able to recruit more players for the place before Planewalker ate my time.



At least you won't have to keep an eye out for me as I can't afford to get to Gen Con Indy. Still... I might just send a henchman and a few minions just to keep you both in order when the results are announced in Modus Operandi's favour 

Seriously, I'm just happy to be on the shortlist again


----------



## PaulofCthulhu (Jul 17, 2006)

Oh it's all fun!

It'll be the only year we're doing it anyway. At least until the year 2031 by our current calculations. 

Paul


----------



## Clueless (Jul 17, 2006)

I'm lookin' forward to it.   You guys gonna be at the ENparty?


----------



## Dextra (Jul 18, 2006)

PaulofCthulhu said:
			
		

> Oh it's all fun!
> 
> It'll be the only year we're doing it anyway. At least until the year 2031 by our current calculations.
> 
> Paul




My goodness, is this the limey idea of trash-talking?
C'mon guys!  Fight for your votes!  Jeepers- you have dimensional travel and the Great Old Ones to back you up- let's see what you can bring to bear.

PS- loved the ENnies pimp-a-thon.


----------



## Epidiah Ravachol (Jul 18, 2006)

Wait. It's kosher to pimp ENnie nominees?

I've got a severe social anxiety disorder going on here, but if it's all in the clear, I'll let loose with all I've got.*








* Truth be told, that isn't a whole lot beyond my sig line. So consider yourself already unleashed upon.


----------



## Vocenoctum (Jul 18, 2006)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> Adding to Crothian's comment, we also see a lot of self-nominations come out as "enter this in every category"




Well, I meant in addition to limiting them to one category. Only on choice, and the publisher makes it when they submit.


----------



## Clueless (Jul 18, 2006)

Dextra said:
			
		

> My goodness, is this the limey idea of trash-talking?
> C'mon guys!  Fight for your votes!  Jeepers- you have dimensional travel and the Great Old Ones to back you up- let's see what you can bring to bear.
> PS- loved the ENnies pimp-a-thon.




"And in the left corner weighing in at 130 pounds (150 soaking wet) is Shemeshka the Marauder, representing Sigil and all the planes... and in the right corner repr... *glubglub* *thump* 

Ok! Who let the deep one into the ring?!"


----------



## dpmcalister (Jul 18, 2006)

The deep one is just a ploy by your government's espionage agencies to bring enemy agents out into the open...


----------



## Clueless (Jul 18, 2006)

Oh bah, the 'loth's already *own* them...  *plays with soul gem*


----------



## PaulofCthulhu (Jul 18, 2006)

Dextra said:
			
		

> My goodness, is this the limey idea of trash-talking?
> C'mon guys!  Fight for your votes!  Jeepers- you have dimensional travel and the Great Old Ones to back you up- let's see what you can bring to bear.
> 
> PS- loved the ENnies pimp-a-thon.




Trash talk? I don't think the British are very good at it. 

We shall see what we can bring to bear, every tentacale counts!

Glad you liked the show, do errrr, feel free to add it to the RPG Media section of the ENnies links page. We won't mind, no, definitely not.

Summer brings a lot of "away on holiday" and "IP previously used" it would seem. Such are the trials & tribulations for us all!

Is it really only Day 2?

Paul


----------



## Red Spire Press (Jul 18, 2006)

Very proud to have seen the Dark Legacies Campaign Guide nominated for best campaign setting and best art! Tons of blood, sweat, and various other fluids went into this book so it's a real payoff. Thanks to everyone involved.


----------



## Crothian (Jul 18, 2006)

Red Spire Press said:
			
		

> Very proud to have seen the Dark Legacies Campaign Guide nominated for best campaign setting and best art! Tons of blood, sweat, and arious other fluids went into this book so it's a real payoff. Thanks to everyone involved.




Are you planning on doing more with the setting?


----------



## Red Spire Press (Jul 18, 2006)

Crothian said:
			
		

> Are you planning on doing more with the setting?



We have an adventure module coming out this fall. Future products depend on the market, and being a little guy right now is awfully tough.


----------



## dpmcalister (Jul 18, 2006)

PaulofCthulhu said:
			
		

> Do give us a vote!  We'll be at the ENnie Awards Ceremony at Gen Con anyway.



I just thought (dangerous for me I know, but... ), if you're heading to Gen Con anyway, I wonder if I could squeeze myself into one of your suitcases... 

On second thoughts... probably not


----------



## JoeGKushner (Jul 18, 2006)

Red Spire Press said:
			
		

> We have an adventure module coming out this fall. Future products depend on the market, and being a little guy right now is awfully tough.




How about miniatures?

Art book?

Novels?

Lots of areas that don't rely solely on the gaming market eh?


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## diaglo (Jul 18, 2006)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> How about miniatures?
> 
> Art book?
> 
> ...




calendar?

nevermind. forget i said that.


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## Shemeska (Jul 18, 2006)

*Take all the sanity you want jellied horrors, leave me the souls*



			
				Clueless said:
			
		

> "And in the left corner weighing in at 130 pounds (150 soaking wet) is Shemeshka the Marauder, representing Sigil and all the planes... and in the right corner repr... *glubglub* *thump*
> 
> Ok! Who let the deep one into the ring?!"




"First of all dear, how do you know my weight? And second of all, I'm not getting in any corner of any ring with anyone, tentacled or not."

*eyebrow and haughty chuckle*

"And note to self: do not wear a sheer dress around unspeakable things that despite the looks, keep trying to burble and gibber at you that they're not from the Far Realm."


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## Rodrigo Istalindir (Jul 18, 2006)

Shemeska said:
			
		

> I'm not getting in any corner of any ring...."
> 
> Too bad.  You'd almost have to be on some non-euclidean plane to even be able to get in the corner of a ring.


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## Numion (Jul 19, 2006)

Sooo .. now for something completely different.

I was browsing the fansites to better choose my vote. I came upon Yog-Shothoth, and stumbled on to the forums. I started reading this thread on why CoC isn't more popular, since I enjoyed that game in 90s, and even bought the d20 version.

http://www.yog-sothoth.com/modules....topic&t=5884&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

My hyperlink button doesn't work, so copypaste that to your browser.

EDIT: IT DID! 

Anyway, I read the thread, etc .. and god damned the elitism of those people is just staggering! I can't count the times players of 'lesser' games (read = D&D) are referred to as munchkins, rollplayers, highschoolers who can't get dates .. D&D is equal to pokemon to them. All the while their own preferred game (BRP CoC) is free from such ills, and is only unpopular for the vast intellectual challenges it possesses, thus making it uninteresting for 90% population whose IQ falls below the required.

These opinions, judging from postcounts, come from established members of that forum. The hostility and their delusion of mental superiority due to their preferred game borders on irony. I mean, did anyone ever get much dates because they were an advocate of cosmic horror instead of fantasy roleplayer? 

It's also ironic that message boarders of such supreme intellect completely miss the answer to their threads question (why isn't CoC more popular) while it's staring them straight in the face! (It's your own elitism and unwillingness to try to see what the masses enjoy in RPGs beyond your inane and sarcastic (and ultimately false) remarks of munchkinism and rollplaying).

So Yog-Shothoth, you didn't get my vote. It would be a shame if a fan site with such closeminded community should get the award for best, well, anything.


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## Cthulhu's Librarian (Jul 19, 2006)

Numion said:
			
		

> Anyway, I read the thread, etc .. and god damned the elitism of those people is just staggering! <snip>
> 
> So Yog-Shothoth, you didn't get my vote. It would be a shame if a fan site with such closeminded community should get the award for best, well, anything.




First, we didn't pick the website based on the messageboards, but on the content, presentation, and usefulness of the site. The fact that it has a messageboard just adds to the sites usefulness. 

Second, what is so different about what they are saying in that thread than the d20 elitism that sometimes pops up here? Or the indy game elitism that happens on other sites? Or the WoD elitism that happens on WW based boards? I think that just about every messageboard is going to have closeminded individuals who will say that their way is the best, and everyone else is below them. Ever look in the rules forum here on ENW?


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## Numion (Jul 19, 2006)

Cthulhu's Librarian said:
			
		

> Second, what is so different about what they are saying in that thread than the d20 elitism that sometimes pops up here? Or the indy game elitism that happens on other sites? Or the WoD elitism that happens on WW based boards? I think that just about every messageboard is going to have closeminded individuals who will say that their way is the best, and everyone else is below them. Ever look in the rules forum here on ENW?




ENWorld is a good example how the mods and admins excellent work can result in a better athmosphere. Comments like "Game X is for high-school kids that can't get dates" don't fly on boards that are well run (mods & admins).

I've not seen such mental masturbation threads on ENWorld..


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## Piratecat (Jul 19, 2006)

Well, they exist, but we sure don't encourage them.

I think the sites should be judged as a whole: resources, presentation, feel, and usefulness. That way you won't let a negative minor aspect of a site overwhelm the major positives (or vice versa.)


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## JoeGKushner (Jul 19, 2006)

Numion said:
			
		

> I've not seen such mental masturbation threads on ENWorld..




You need to pay more attention to the 4e threads then. Mental masturbation as it's finest.


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## Cthulhu's Librarian (Jul 19, 2006)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> I think the sites should be judged as a whole: resources, presentation, feel, and usefulness. That way you won't let a negative minor aspect of a site overwhelm the major positives (or vice versa.)




Agreed. The talking of a few (or even several) posters on a messageboard does not in any way reflect the overall quality of the site and it's usefulness. I'd no more judge Yog-Shothoth based on the thread you linked to than I would ENWorld based on the 4e threads Joe brings up. It's a small, small portion of the content, and rather insignifgant in the big picture. There are things I dislike about ENW, but they don't keep me from thinking it's the one of the best resources for my RPG needs. If I was a regular CoC player, Yog-Shothoth would be on my short list for that game.


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## Clueless (Jul 19, 2006)

After the ENnies are over - think you guys could shoot us reviews of what you liked / didn't like in navigation and layout for the sites? Can't fix problems without feedback ya know.


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## JVisgaitis (Jul 19, 2006)

Red Spire Press said:
			
		

> Very proud to have seen the Dark Legacies Campaign Guide nominated for best campaign setting and best art!




Congrats! Its a great book and more then worthy of its nominations... 




			
				JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> How about miniatures?
> 
> Art book?
> 
> ...




Most viable of those you mentioned is miniatures, but there is still a lot of overhead and all of these cross with the gaming market anyway. The problem with being a small company (and I speak from experience) is effectively reaching your target market. The best reviews and acclaim in the world don't amount to sales. You need to be stalwart, have a consistent line planned, a bit of luck, and a thick skin to make it. Now jumping out of the gaming arena and trying to make yourself viable in an even larger market? That's a scary proposition indeed...


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## PaulofCthulhu (Jul 19, 2006)

Numion said:
			
		

> Sooo .. now for something completely different.
> 
> I was browsing the fansites to better choose my vote. I came upon Yog-Shothoth, and stumbled on to the forums. I started reading this thread on why CoC isn't more popular, since I enjoyed that game in 90s, and even bought the d20 version.
> 
> ...



As pointed out, these topics come up on many forums for many games from time to time, and there's often a good reason there's usually a proviso that opinions posted "do not necessarily reflect those of the site owners/administrators".

I recently completed _The World's Largest Dungeon_, mine the only character to survive all 40 sessions and all of it recorded on audio (5+ days) and available over at RPGMP3, so hardly 'anti-D&D'.

I would also point interested parties to _Yog Radio_ #8 and the interview with Monte Cook.


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## Jonny Nexus (Jul 20, 2006)

Cthulhu's Librarian said:
			
		

> content




Check!



			
				Cthulhu's Librarian said:
			
		

> presentation




Check!



			
				Cthulhu's Librarian said:
			
		

> usefulness




Ah.

Bugger.


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## PaulofCthulhu (Jul 20, 2006)

For the curious, with reference to the above mentioned game audio recordings, see:

_World's Largest Dungeon_ Direct Downloads - _Dungeons & Dragons_

_Masks of Nyarlathotep_ Direct Downloads - _Call of Cthulhu_

Paul


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## PaulofCthulhu (Jul 22, 2006)

Vote for Yog-Sothoth, win a _HorrorClix Great Cthulhu_!

OK, the two aren't related, but you can still win 1.7Kg of _Great Cthulhu_ in our Lovecraftian Limmericks Competition.

Paul


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## PaulofCthulhu (Aug 1, 2006)

Well, for the curious, our official site count comes in at 98 votes for us and 9 votes against us.

Which I think is quite respectable out of 5,000+. 

See everyone in a week or so, French aircraft pilots willing...

Paul


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## Clueless (Aug 1, 2006)

Looking foward to it


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## diaglo (Aug 2, 2006)

Numion said:
			
		

> I've not seen such mental masturbation threads on ENWorld..




i guess you don't read numerous threads in a day. the percentage is low. but given the absolute number of posts per day. they certainly do exist.

it helps to report them. that's what i do.

i also use my ignore list quite often if the participants don't get themselves banned.


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