# Dragon's Revisited [Come on in folks]



## Liquide (Dec 26, 2002)

Well we started a dragon thread a while back, it was mainly for malessa so she could get some help and inspiration in her own dragon sketches and drawings.

This time around I thought we can do a dragon workshop thingie, explain techniques and then post an image that uses those techniques.

I'm currently doing a dragon with HB hardness and using sketch paper that I'll scan as soon as I have defined all lines and detail a bit better 

The pic is inspired by the red dragon bt Mr. Lockwood in the Monster Manual, so fellas come on in and post your dragons and tell us a bit about them 

This below is my little "essay" from the original dragon thread.
__________________________________

Well I need some help with how to build a dragon so I'm typing down my thoughts on how a dragon's anatomy actually is built up.

In general a dragon is created from 4 different creatures (this assumes a 6 limbed dragon where the 2 additional limbs are the wings).

I also assume that we use the classical long necked stream-lined dragon in this example.

<ul>
<li> *Head of the dragon* The head is loosely based on that of an eagle, the front beak is directly taken from that of an eagle with the exceptions of the nostrils which is positioned in the front of the beak instead of longer up on the face. The dragon's also have a toothy maw which the eagle doesn't have which also means that inside the mouth you need to add some fleshy parts. A dragon doesn't usually have feathers so the texture of the skin is based and built with snake-like scales (just look at a boa constrictor on how this looks), eyes of the dragon is located within very deep eye sockets but is otherwise similar to the eye of a crocodile. In addition a dragon's head is usually built on a massive bone structure where some bones penetrates the skin and scales of the dragons in the shape of horns or just massive bony plates.

OK that is that for the head, just add anything below if I have forgotten something 

*The front of a dragon*

<li> *The Neck of the dragon* The neck is base on that of a vulture combined with some snake/serpent anatomy for greater flexibility and power. The base of the head is connected to neck in the same manner that a vultures neck is connected to its head. It then shifts gradually over 1/4th of the necks total length to the anatomy of a snake, where massive muscles can be seen below the skin and scales of the neck. The scales we'll use on the dragon's neck is built in the exact same manner as those of a big snake such as a boa constrictor, python or anaconda. The neck is never thinner then the base of the dragon's neck and gradually widens to match the torsos width and half its height where it connects to the rest of the body.

<li> *Front Torso and chest of the dragon* Now we come to a tricky part of dragon anatomy where you really need to look at an anatomical map of the creatures involved to see how muscles flow beneath the skin. The front and upper parts where the neck connects to the torso and chest is the of an eagle, also connect the wings of the dragon like if you have drawn a eagle in this part but a dragon needs more massive muscles so have that in mind when you add them. While the torso starts to round and go backwards towards the abdomen gradually change the muscles and anatomical style to better match that of a lion (since we will use a lions anatomy a bit later). Connect the front legs just as if you have drawn an eagle then switch to the anatomy of an Allosurus front legs to get a more massive muscular view (an eagles front legs is not meant to rend it is built to hold its prey while an Allosaurus were built to rend and tear with its claws), just remember to makes the legs more massive then on the Allosaurus since the dragon also needs to be able to use the legs in order to walk on all fours  . For scales, continue with the snake-like scales from the dragons neck down to the chest and the underbelly of the dragon, while you start to use the more massive and greater crocodile scales on the sides and top of the dragon. A dragon is of greater size then a snake so it sides and back needs greater protection and therefore we use the crocodile scales on the sides and back of the dragon. We use the snake scales on the belly, and remember to lets them go up a little bit on the side of he belly as well, for greater flexibility and mobility in the dragon's body.
</ul>

*Wings and Hind-quarters of the dragon*

<ul>
<li> *The wings of a dragon* The wings can be a bit tricky to pull of but I'll give you a few tips here. The base of the wings is connected just like if you where drawing an eagle (we do this so we can easier cheat with the anatomy of the dragon and make the drawing look more realistic), then we go over to draw them exactly as id we had drawn a bat's wing. Just remember two things;
<ul>
<li> dragon's have a greater more massive muscle structure so take this in account when adding muscles to the and around the wings.
<li> a dragons wing-span is around 1.5 times up to 3 times the dragon's total body length (including tail) in order to be able to fly and also to give the impression of a massive creature 
</ul>
The scales used on the wings should be small and flexible to allow the motion of wings that is needed in order to fly. Base them on a small serpents or snakes scales for the best and more flexible effect.

<li> *The dragon's hind-quarters* Where we connect the hind-quarters to the front and the cheats of the dragon we start to redraw the muscles and bone structure to match that of a lion. The spine and back of the dragons is redrawn over about 3 rib sections of the rib-cage to gradually change from eagle to lion. The under-belly and you just add another set of torso muscles to make the switch from eagle to dragon less apparent. remember to make the hind-quarters a bit wider then that of a normal lion (this mainly due to the fact that we need to add a larger and more massive tail to the dragon then the tail a lion normally has). The hind legs you can draw exactly as if they are from a lion (but give them a three toed claw in the end  instead of the lions paw). For scales just continue the serpent/snake pattern on the underbelly and the crocodile pattern on the back sides.

<li> *The dragons tail* Just draw the beginning of the tail where it connects to the dragons body as if it was a crocodile tail and gradually change the appearance over 1/5th of the tails total length to better match the appearance of a snakes or a serpents end-quarters. For scales use crocodile scales in the beginning of the upper tail (where it connects to the body) and gradually change them to snake/serpent scales, and on the below/bottom just continue the snake like pattern we have used from the neck over the torso/chest and over the tail 
</ul>

[edit]

 Inserted my old description of a dragon into this post.
[/edit]


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## cthuluftaghn (Dec 26, 2002)

Cool... I just saw this from work.  Malessa's offline right now, but I'll give her a holler when I'm on break and point her in this direction.  I know she still wants to do more with dragons... it's a major goal of hers.


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## Malessa (Dec 26, 2002)

Sounds good to me!


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## Aldymnor (Dec 26, 2002)

Awesome idea, i think I'll come back later with some sketches...
Here's one already (granted it's old...)






This one has a dragon - I think I tried going for facial spikes... umm yeah.   Again, I'll do more later.


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## Liquide (Dec 26, 2002)

Well here is the dragon that I'm currently working on.
It is still in draft stage but since I felt that I strated this thread I at least need to post something 

Will post more on this sketch the more detail that will go in to it.

This is done with a HB pencil and inspiration is taken from Todd Lockwood's red dragon in the Monster Manual.

Pic is not intended to be a copy of his dragon, it is instead supposed to look like a dragon of that particular spieces.

Around 2 more hours of work needed to complete this one.

So come on and tell me what you think.

Also I need to buy a new scanner (darn lousy quality in this one)


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## Malessa (Dec 27, 2002)

Wow! He's your best yet! Now hurry and finish him, I want to see end results!!


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## Liquide (Dec 27, 2002)

Malessa said:
			
		

> *Wow! He's your best yet! Now hurry and finish him, I want to see end results!! *




I'll try and finish her up today, and you just say that to make me happy 

Now tell me why you think it is good!


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## Malessa (Dec 27, 2002)

The porportions seem right on, the muscle definition is there, scales are in check. The detail is coming along nicely.  I know your not finished yet with all the detail and back legs, so I'm not going to point out the obvious, lol....  But I will point out that the front legs and claws look very good. I know how hard it is to keep the porportions the same. The head, neck, chest and body are my favorite overall so far. The one and only flaw I do see though, is the scales on front legs don't match. One leg's scales seem to overlap, the other underlap. Then again, I know your not finished, and if your like me, even when you are finished, there is always touch-ups that can be made, lol.....As far as I'm concerned though, he's looking perfect! NOW HURRY UP!


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## Malessa (Dec 27, 2002)

I'll start a new one soon, but here is the latest one.  He started out as a sketch I did earlier on your first thread of dragons.  He's the one that I didn't use any visual inspiration.  I colored him in PSP.  I first used color to target, retouch tool.  Then hot waxed under effects option.  Then used glowing edges under effects as well.  Then used color to target again and inner bevle.  I then touched up with spray paint and smudged.  Can't rem. rest off the top of my head. I slapped a background on, not my best, but to at least get rid of the dull white background.

Ok, I know I still have a ways to go on achieving my idea of 'the ultimate dragon', but I do think I'm progressing.  Any of you who followed the thread before can 'hopefully' vouch for that.

Ok now for the collective criticism.  What does he lack? What did I do wrong? How can I make the next picture better? Besides of course a better background. 

Fire Away!


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## cthuluftaghn (Dec 27, 2002)

I've always liked the lion-like quality of this dragon's body.  I'd like to see a similar picture but in brighter and more vivid detail.  With this one, you've got the shape down, but use lots of dark color and shading to hide what would be the details.


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## Liquide (Dec 27, 2002)

From a honest doodler to another (in the sense of critisicm that is a good thing).

The things I have a hard time to picture are:


 *Depth:* All the shadow kind of blend togather so even though I know how the orignial picture looks like (which was a good step forward in progession I might add) I cannot see the depth of the picture. Try use shadows a bit less and only where it is most needed. Such as below the wings to give the illusion of depth and 3d 

 *Detail:* Dont' hide all that wonderful detail you had in this B/W doodle, try use less chunks of colors/shades so it blends togather the originals details and shadows instead of covering them in this fashion. The brightred you have chosen works well though, try combineit with a fiery orange for more detail o come out (and try replace a lot of the dark shadows with a dark crimson color instead)

Apart from these two above I like it, and I also see that you have the same problem as myself when it comes to backgrounds  (e.g. we try to cover them up in themselves so we don't have to work on them to much).

Oh and paint on my fair lady, you're a truly getting closer to your dragon you want to be able to draw for each picture you make (and I want the same honest reply from you when I post my lady red dragon a bit later [still meddling with some shadows and detail] )


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## Liquide (Dec 27, 2002)

Well she isn't quite finished yet but I felt like doing a progression report and here we go again, still need to renew my scanner hardware though 

So fire away with the comments / critisicm.


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## Malessa (Dec 27, 2002)

WHOLLY $%@*! Looks great to me, matter of fact, I can't find anything to criticise, cept maybe it took you long enough!  Just kidding.  She is a beaut! Are you going to try to color her? An exceptional dragon like her needs exceptional color and background! Then again, she's pretty perfect just like that..
hmm...
btw, you know I've done 2 since your old thread...*cough*


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## Liquide (Dec 27, 2002)

Malessa said:
			
		

> *WHOLLY $%@*! Looks great to me, matter of fact, I can't find anything to criticise, cept maybe it took you long enough!  Just kidding.  She is a beaut! Are you going to try to color her? An exceptional dragon like her needs exceptional color and background! Then again, she's pretty perfect just like that..
> hmm...
> btw, you know I've done 2 since your old thread...*cough* *




Thanks, I'll  try and color her in pshop later on still I need to know why she is good lady 

And gimme more dragons Malessa


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## Malessa (Dec 27, 2002)

Liquide said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Thanks, I'll  try and color her in pshop later on still I need to know why she is good lady
> 
> And gimme more dragons Malessa  *




Everything is portioned right, right down to the feet and toes, I know thats the hardest to accomplish and you pulled it off without a hitch. The detail is just enough to show the muscle, scales and shading without to much or not enough.  The only thing that I can see that is missing, but not missed, is the tiny scales that cover the whole body. Like I said though, they are not missed or necessarily needed in my opinion. My problem with my own work is I love detail, but end up with too much or it looks cluttered, you don't have this problem.

Doh! Grumble, grumble, I was refering to YOU doing another!lol, but I will see what I can muster.  After your next, that is.....Muhaahaaha


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## Liquide (Dec 28, 2002)

Well I must post something in order to get Malessa to do another dragon. I know it is not a  full dragon but it is all I have managed to scrabble togather today. 

Fire away your comments!


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## Wolv0rine (Dec 28, 2002)

Okay, okay, Malessa's just too gung-ho.  I know Liquide can take him some creative crits, so just to balance things out, I'll shoot it down (because he already knows I dig the pic, hehe)

1. This is a personal preference thing, but I think the horns atop his head are too short.  They look more like bony ridges than horns.
2. The cheek frill bothers me a bit, I think it's because it's underdeveloped.  Give just a hint more impression of the individual spires that end in spurs.
3. The foreground wing's humorous bone doesn't meet up with the shoulder, it looks dislocated.
4. Foreground foreleg, from the 'elbow' down this looks great, but I get the impression that this humorous is too short by just a wee bit, because I have to look to see that the anatomy here isn't shoulder-elbow-forearm-claw.
5. Fromthe point where the tail bends, it begins to become distorted, at one point the line just wavers and creates a bulge in the lower-tail.
6. The wings, I think, are too structured in their texture.  There's this impression of taut leather (as there should be), from the lines, but they are too symetrical.

Now, I do like this pic.  Here is what I DO like
1. On the whole, it stands up well.  Forms and structure are mostly in proportion to each other, and it fills the negative space very well.
2. The head itself has a good shape, not over-done, not under-done.  More draconic to my eye than any other dragon I've seen Liquide do.
3. The neck, in thickness, length, and scale-pattern -- this is a grand dragon neck.  It connects to the head, and the shoulders (and before anyone calls that a backhanded compliment, look at some dragon pics.  So many don't do that).
4. The outline of the wings is superb.  This is their size, mass, and overall shape.  These wings could lift this dragon (even if it does have 2 sets of biceps, hehe)
5. The claws are very nice.  In specific, the claws that are bearing the dragon's weight are very nice.  It would be easy to stop and point and say "Hey, here are three dozen tips for making those claws look like they are *really* bearin that weight!", but darnit I like 'em.
6. The subtle shading of the musculature.  I like this technique, although I think it's just a hair too light.  We need a slightly darker line, with a bit of shading gradiation blending it into the hide, but I like how muted it is now too.

Overall... we know that Liquide's got a solid handle on the theoretical anatomy, the man's practically written a treatise on it for us.    And, while I disagree on a few points, he sticks to his own rules, and that provides a level of internal consistency that is supporting of each piece.

Okay, that's enough, I just don't want your head to swell up with praise so much that you don't improve, mate. 

((BTW, this is the full-body dragon, not the head-only))


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## Wolv0rine (Dec 28, 2002)

Not to hijack the thread, but I figured I'd throw in a dragon sketch I did not long ago while I had oriental dragons in mind heavilly.  No forethought, just let the pencil move as it would.


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## Malessa (Dec 28, 2002)

I guess it's my turn to draw. I've changed my methods of drawing a bit.  Y'all haven't seen much current stuff since most of it is either in our pdf book of swords, or hasn't been published yet. I'm not going to mention anything else, but I think you see a noticeable difference on my sketches.  Keep in mind though, its going to be awhile. 

Btw, really dig the dragon head Liquide!  Did a good job on the detail of the open mouth.


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## Malessa (Dec 28, 2002)

Wolv0rine said:
			
		

> *Not to hijack the thread, but I figured I'd throw in a dragon sketch  *




Who am I to say, but hijack all you want, it is afterall, a dragon thread!

Btw, looks good, has a cat like influence to it.


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## Aldymnor (Dec 29, 2002)

JEez Liquide these are awesome.

I think the second one (maybe?) you posted has a tail that looks a little pooey.  (Edit: just remembered the real word - formless... like it's lumpy or something)  They're all awesome though.
I'm almost done wtih my next one, it's a composite shot so it's taking a while.  This is a great thread!
I also like Malessa's, it's so grimey!


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## Aldymnor (Dec 29, 2002)

(Ignore the girl, this is just talkin about the dragon)

Here I attempted to use a muscle configuration not unlike the Lockwood clone above provided skillfully by Liquide.

I sorta failed.  The wing is bubbly, and I should slender that down a bit.

One thing I like is that this dragon isn't spiked much - I intend on making it a good dragon (or gem as the case may be)

Is the neck too long?  I wonder. 

Any other comments / shreds are totally welcome.  (Also welcome on the girl, but really she's not the focus on this piece.)


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## Malessa (Dec 29, 2002)

Looks great Aldymnor! Very cool indeed, I like your style.


Ok here is mine so far, I'm no where near being done with sketch yet. Feel free to fire away though anyway!


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## Psychotic Dreamer (Dec 29, 2002)

Liquide:  Well I must say the updated picture of the Dragon is looking very nice.  It screams Dragon.  It is exactly what I am looking for in a Dragon.  I think what I really like about it is the general look of the head and the detail on the feet.  My only real thing that doesn't quite feel right is the tail.  I agree with Aldymnor that it just feels formless.  Granted I wouldn't have noticed it if it wasn't for his comment.  

Granted I always feel strange commenting about anyones art since I have no artistic talent myself.  I'm awed by anyone with the ability to draw as well as you and the others do.


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## Maldur (Dec 29, 2002)

Liquide: nice dragon.
Some things I noticed.

The short head spikes and minimal ridges give the impression its a fairly young dragon , was that your intension?

The wing is kinda weird. The muscled part look a bit misplaced. I always invisioned them more orn the frontedge of the wing ( like malessa's-BW/ like bats.

The skin done is shaded pencil like that. doesn't really scream scales to me. Maybe a bit more texture?


You can try doing the same dragon with a different pose. Try thinking of a pose which shows the wingstructure more, or the tail. ( the tail seems allright but the pose gives it a bit of a lumpy quality.


Malessa:
I really love you second, Black and white dragon. the coloured one was a bit overdone in colour, so much it showed colour and obscured the dragon. Your black and white shows you do know what dragons look like. in your first picture is kinda hard to see that. the colouring might be more appropriate for deamons or devils??


Wolv0rine: your "dragon" is very nice. But ( at least to me) NOT a dragon. Im definately gonna steel the pic for another monster ( im not sure when or what monster) but not a dragon.


Aldymnor:
Great!  I just love doodles the first dragon is nice and dynamic, I always like movement in pictures.


All of you keep it up, Im a lousy artist, so Im very jealous


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## Wolv0rine (Dec 29, 2002)

Maldur said:
			
		

> *Wolv0rine: your "dragon" is very nice. But ( at least to me) NOT a dragon. Im definately gonna steel the pic for another monster ( im not sure when or what monster) but not a dragon.*




*Nods*  I was trying to meld classic dragons and asian dragons (many of which tend to be fairly leonic) into something a little of both.  It's not quite dragon to me, either (although perhaps some kind of dragonic being or creature), but I liked the look of the head in general, glad you did too. 

And Malessa, that last one was pretty darned nice.


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## Liquide (Dec 29, 2002)

Wolv0rine said:
			
		

> *Okay, okay, Malessa's just too gung-ho.  I know Liquide can take him some creative crits, so just to balance things out, I'll shoot it down (because he already knows I dig the pic, hehe)
> 
> 1. This is a personal preference thing, but I think the horns atop his head are too short.  They look more like bony ridges than horns.
> 2. The cheek frill bothers me a bit, I think it's because it's underdeveloped.  Give just a hint more impression of the individual spires that end in spurs.
> ...





 Actually your eyes doesn't folly you here mate  , it wasn't intended as horns. The original drawing by the grand Mr. Lockwood had horns but I felt I wanted to Liquidize my version of it a lil bit so I opted for my bony ridge version of the head instead. Hope you can like it more now when you know that 

 Suggestions lad, suggestions on how to this  I can extend and make the cheek larger I presume and more defined bone structure, but please send me some sugestions.

 Me and bones == don't match up well  Still I can see what you mean, lil hard to fix it now since the paper is well "over-done" at that place on the illo.

 Well, no comments here it is a lil bit short, but it would mean that I am to redraw a large chunka of the illo in order for it to match up, so no please.

 Had to bend the tail for it to fit, this one I can remodel since I have not torn the paper apiece at that place yet  So suggest the fix please.

 Nag Nag Nag  , well if you say so (I likem me wings though  )
[/list=1]



			
				Wolv0rine said:
			
		

> *Now, I do like this pic.  Here is what I DO like
> 1. On the whole, it stands up well.  Forms and structure are mostly in proportion to each other, and it fills the negative space very well.
> 2. The head itself has a good shape, not over-done, not under-done.  More draconic to my eye than any other dragon I've seen Liquide do.
> 3. The neck, in thickness, length, and scale-pattern -- this is a grand dragon neck.  It connects to the head, and the shoulders (and before anyone calls that a backhanded compliment, look at some dragon pics.  So many don't do that).
> ...




Hey I never swell (at least not too much since that would make me explode), and thanks mate 

editted for grammer


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## Liquide (Dec 29, 2002)

Aldymnor said:
			
		

> *
> 
> 
> 
> ...




First, the lady became the focus of the pic when you made her the centre front piece but enough of that from me now 

The muscle tone I created in my pic is done with an eraser and not a pencil I might add BTW. First I fill all the body areas with the muscle lines, fill in lots of light pencil fillings. Then I use the eraser to define the highlighted muscles and smudge out the shadows (just discovered this technique and it is fast and gives a quite nice result, takes some time to master though)

Neck seems OK to me mate, I tend to make it a bit shorter and more musculer since I want to give the impression of a muscular and agile predator that uses its neck to tear away bits of flesh when it has grasped an opponent/carcass, but that is just my personal preference.

Dragons need spikes and bony plates  , it is not the dragon that does the detail. It is the detail that does the dragon, the more detail (and smaller details) you can put into the pic to more firghtening it will look and the more real people will percieve your dragon as.

Ok enough of my thoughts


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## Liquide (Dec 29, 2002)

Malessa said:
			
		

> *Looks great Aldymnor! Very cool indeed, I like your style.
> 
> 
> Ok here is mine so far, I'm no where near being done with sketch yet. Feel free to fire away though anyway! *




OK lady, there is nothing wrong with this as far as the sketch tell me so far  One little nit-pick (and it is a small one), a bat wing has 1 thumb and 4 fingers not 2 thumbs and 7 fingers  but me commenting on fantasy anatomy will prolly just get me in trouble.

And you are improving by miles with this picture compared to the old ones, one little note when making the horns try and find some obscure animal with curved horns for dragons (makes for a better image and strengthens the illusion that you have actually drawn something from real-life), suggestions on animals can be found in every movie about african wildlife (more or less).

.End report


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## Malessa (Dec 29, 2002)

Thanks Liquide, I'll look up bat anatomy on google, horns as well.  Right now I just woke up..blurry eyed..so need much coffee first... Hopefully I'll finish him today, or at least make more progress...for now........COFFEE.....MUST HAVE COFFEE.....! *yawn*


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## Malessa (Dec 29, 2002)

Here is what I found on bat anatomy, thought I'd post it since this is a workshop. You were right on the bat finger thingy,  .  Maybe this will help everyone else as well to see what you were talking about.


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## Aldymnor (Dec 29, 2002)

Liquide -yeah I know the lady was centre.  This is an illustration of _her_ but for purposes of the forum, I was only talking about the dragon.

I don't think all dragons need spikes but you're right about the details.  As I said, it was just a sketch, not a finished piece and I was studying the form more than the detail.

And Malessa - that diagram above makes me think of a wyvern more than a dragon.  I always defined the difference in that Dragons were quad-legged (quadroped?) with wings and Wyverns had two legs and their arms _were_ wings.  That's just me though.


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## Wolv0rine (Dec 29, 2002)

Argh!  That's what I get for posting so late at night.  I had meant to mention the 2-thumbs, 7-fingers things (I've become a stickler on wings in general in most cases, after a huge chunk of research I did myself, just like Malessa's doing).  That was a good reference pic, I suggest you find a couple of just the wing, extended a bit, and other types of wings to compare them to, as well.  It's very enlightening.


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## Wolv0rine (Dec 29, 2002)

Liquide said:
			
		

> *
> 
> 
> Actually your eyes doesn't folly you here mate  , it wasn't intended as horns. The ornognal drawing by the grand Mr. Lackwood had horns but I felt I wanted to Liquidize my version of it a lil bit so I opted for my bony ridge version of the head instead. Hope you can like it more now when you know that
> ...





1. Aha!  So you didn't fubar the horns, you just filed them down.   Okay, now that I can live with and respect.  hehe
2. Okay, on this one I meant the flare-frill (not the 3-peaked one directly under the eyes, but the one that stretches from chin to behind the eye).  What I meant was, look at where the little bone spurs extend from it, then look along it's length leading up to those bone spurs..  you can see where the long bone extends through the flared frill, but I thought it was just a bit too subtle.  Actually I'm coming to the conclusion that what I'm seeing as just barely too subtle is really just the appearance given by this eraser technique, so maybe we can throw this one out. 
3. & 4. No, it's not something you can fix without re-drawing the whole frelling thing, but it's something to watch out for next time.  My guess is that most people not looking that close will never notice this bone problem, and when they finally do, they might thing they're special. ;P
5. Oh, I like that the tail curves around, it's just the bloby looking part (looking like a slight hand drift, obviously not intended, this is the same category as a bent sword blade or something, artist error not technique error)
6. Oh, *I* like the wings, I think you just haven't learned a strong taut leather technique yet is all.  Which is better than the alternative, because it's easy enough to learn a good technique. 

Naturally, mate.  I mean geez, you know how it goes..  you spot some boo-boos, you know how to fix 'em, you find the stuff they did right so you don't look like a sadist...  LOL


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## Liquide (Dec 30, 2002)

OK tonite (today) there will be another update, I'll introduce you to the dragon I have meddled togather today.

I currently have no scanner where I am (not at home) so I cannot scan the draft and show you the sketch, but I'll try and explain what I'm doing.

Next upcmoing illo is of a short-neck / feline dragon, changed some in the anatomy to make it match up well (compared to my above dragon), gave it a shorter neck and slightly diffrently shaped head then I normally draw.

So hold your horses, I'll be back sooner then you expect (but longer then some can wait  ).


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## Malessa (Dec 30, 2002)

Eek! Slow down, I haven't had time to finish mine yet. Then again.....yeah! Lets see another!


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## Liquide (Dec 30, 2002)

Well here he is (yup a male this time around), little diffrent from the classical dragon. Also a lot diffrent from the dragon I describe in my initial post.

Took a lot of inspiration from lions and cheetas on this one, well enough of my ramblings.

Here he we go, oh and comment on folks (waiting for you wolv0rine).

edit - it is still in draft, will try and finish him up tomorrow - end edit


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## Wolv0rine (Dec 30, 2002)

Okay now, you asked specifically. 

-I like the finger bones in the wings, although the wing-top (thumb end) looks a little..  confused, in that I can't tell for sure  what is what up there.  Also, the wing forearm muscles look a touch odd, am I seeing a boo-boo, or am I not well enough versed in wing musculature?
-You've got the wing humorous meeting the shoulder here, good job.    I am noticing that the wing shoulder seems to be *under* the foreleg, which is going to make flight difficult.  I'd suggest the foreleg's shoulder be rolled forward and down just a bit, making it just under and just in front of the wing shoulder.
-Speaking of the foreleg, it's forearm looks a bit too human here to me, and the background foreleg's claw looks just a little too much like a hand in comparison to the other claws.
-Nice job with the forward-curved horn here, outstanding texture to it, but where is this thing sprouting from?  You have depth in every other part of the pic, except where this horn meets the head, where it looks flat and pasted on.
-*This* tail rocks, mate.  I'm loving it.  Only suggestion I could make it to include something to more clearly indicate where the bottom of the tail is, perhaps some kind of line along the top of the under-scaling (and maybe along the bottom of the over-scaling) that says "This section endeth here".  Maybe a bit of shadowing where the tail turns, to really make that sucked pop out, because it deserves it (it's a really good tail).
-The head is interesting, but looks a little too skeletal to me.  Looks almost undead, and I think you shortened the neck too much, this thing's going to be slow, and mostly only go after things directly in front of it, because it can't move it's head up, down, or sideways very much.  On the other hand, if this was the idea, you nailed it dead-on.

Overall, I see this as a very strange beast.  It has these glorious wings, but would have trouble using them because of where they are mounted.  It has these beautiful, powerful, springing legs, so it should be faster than hades, but the equally long forelegs are going to slow it down unless it does a *lot* of leaping (which those hind legs would also be very good at, I think).  And while it's body speaks of speed and quick-striking, it is likely to only strike at what it directly in front of it, because that is where it's field of vision is.  I might suggest altering to horns just a bit, too, for two reasons;
1) The horn obscures the view of much of the head, negating a lot of the work you've put into the head, becuse a viewer is almost encouraged to not look there past the horn.  This short-changes you, because I have no doubt you busted your hump on the head.
2) From the look of it, I'm not thinking that this creature can get any real use out of it's horns, both because the points are well below it's casual line-of-sight (being below it's chin), and because they are somewhat short (they barely reach past it's teeth).
I'm presuming you weren't really focusing on that aspect very much (I'm guilty of focusing too much on one place to get another place right myself, far too often), so that's all understandable.

And, the leathery texture where the wing meets the ribcage is nice, not too symetrical.  The problem is the flap between the shoulder and the elbow, because you need some folding of that flap there (because it's loose, unlike the other side where it's taut and stretched).

In short, it never ceases to impress me how quickly you make improvements to your style and technique.  Overall, I get the impression that you wanted to experiment with a diferent vision of dragon, and were concentrating on that to the degree that you made some simple mistakres that you normally wouldn't make in the piece like this.  I think in a next draft lots of things will improve, especially if you wait until you get some feedback before you start the next draft. ;P

Good work, mate!  (I'm brutal, I know, but it's done with love, you should hear the crits *I* get!  LOL)


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## brak1 (Dec 31, 2002)

Hey all.  Wanted to make sure I commented on everyone and didn’t just throw something into the pot without some other contribution. 

Liquide: Like your style, man.  I get the sense that there’s more detail to the drawings than what we’re seeing.  I’m particularly fond of the one you posted on the 28th – even if it isn’t a full figure drawing I feel like I get a better sense of the ferocity, the toughness and the sheer power a beast like that should project.  If I have any problems at all, they’re with the wings- I understand completely where you’re going with them, and yet aesthetically they don’t please me.  I’m not sure if it’s the sheer amount of skin or what, but something about the wings being attached along the length of the body seems awkward (not awkwardly done, but it seems that these dragons might be ungainly in the air).

Malessa: Your posts kind of got me back into drawing again, so I’m glad to see more of them!  I remember the first dragon you posted and I’ve always liked it.  I happen to like some of the oriental representations of dragons and this one seems like a cross between western and eastern types.  I imagine it to have bristly feathers instead of scales.  The second one also has hints of eastern influence – maybe it’s just the horns.  Very nice start to this drawing, great sense of power in the chest and shoulder area.  Like the way the back leg conveys a sense of motion, just swinging back and forth with the beat of the wings  – although I find myself wondering where the other hind leg is…

WolvOrine:  I do like the asian dragons myself!  A more feral and softer look, yes, but I think it’s a little easier to instill them with a sense of intelligence, or at least a more warm intelligence.  Western dragons always seem cold and aloof to me.

Aldymnor: What I like best about this picture is the sense of weight the dragon has.  The neck is a little thinner than might be healthy for a head that size, but overall the impression is of mass and solidity. 

I think it’s been close to 10 years since I last drew a dragon.  Think I’ll try tonight, though!  Thanks for the inspiration, folks.


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## brak1 (Dec 31, 2002)

Well, here's my first attempt/failure.  At some point I began to realize I wasn't accomplishing what I had hoped and that I wasn't going to finish it.  I'll try again later.

One of the things I wanted to do was to give that fully armored sense of a dragon, covered in scales and impervious to harm.  However, as I went on I realized that the wings were not going to fit into that idea - how do you armour wings and yet make them believable for use in flying?  

Yes, I know, I'm an idiot.  

Anyway, here he is.  Damn.  Now that I look I see his head was too damn small anyway...


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## Maldur (Dec 31, 2002)

I actually kinda like the armoured dragon. It look really tough.

the neck looks a bit thick, where it bend to atach to the head but if you thin that it could work really well.

Let us see more?


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## Dremen (Dec 31, 2002)

Just a minor comments. Since Liquide invited some non artists to post a view.

This is just a general comment. Some of the dragons look too big to fly. The muscles are very large and the dragons wings look too small to lift them. (Not that this is real life  ). 

I think if the dragons looked about 10% leaner with about 15% wing span it might even out the design.

Sorry if this is repeated, I didn't read every relpy.

-D


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## Malessa (Dec 31, 2002)

Like the pic Liquide, very clean, imaginative, muscles look great.  Only thing is, and remember, I'm not a dragon expert yet, so take my comments with a grain of salt.  It doesn't seem dragon like to me? Can't put my finger on it, to explain...

Anyway, here what I've done so far, and yes, I'm still not finished. Still have wings to go, another hind leg to go, and touch up building.  Hope I remembered all the corrections that were needed thus far. If you see anything that needs fixing, lemme know! 

Gimme all your do's, boobo's, and ok's...


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## Dalamar (Dec 31, 2002)

Malessa, how on Earth did you have the patience to do all those scales?

Otherwise, very nice.

Oh, and to contribute for the pool, here's one of mine. Altho I think that the one that I posted on the last thread looked a lot better.


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## Maldur (Dec 31, 2002)

Malessa, thats great!!
Liquide is not the only one improving immensely.


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## Malessa (Dec 31, 2002)

Thanks guys! As far as all the scales, well, lol, if you look closely, they are just little circles...

Argh! Now that my pic is up on screen in front of me straight, the tower on right is crooked...I draw at an angle, as you must now can tell..lol....


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## Liquide (Dec 31, 2002)

OK another dragon on its way  , and Malessa that piece is one marvellous dragon (I hope it is a she, since there are something frightening about 250,000 lb. hyper-intelligent women that can squish you like a fly). Still I don't have patience with either scales nor backgrounds a´which you have a much better grasp on then I have (backgrounds that is).

Well someday we can have a background workshop aswell, but for now please stick to dragons OK?


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## Liquide (Jan 1, 2003)

Well here is my wingless dragon, even though one pictures dragon with wings I wanted to try one without wings in this take.

It is still a draft but I wanted to play around with odd poses and I wanted to create an inpressive horned beast.

So here we go folks.

Oh and Malessa and Wolv0rine I want your input folks


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## Dalamar (Jan 1, 2003)

Now that's one impressive beast, Liquide.

It seems to me his/her plating in the neck changes the 'order' of the plates. That is, from the second to last spike, the ones that are further from the head are under but from the spike towards the head it's vice versa. You get what I mean?
The same effect is with the plating in the tail as compared to the chest. These aren't things you notice on first sight but I paid attention to because I messed the scales on the dragon I posted (check the forelimbs).

Otherwise, very impressive. Altho I personally miss the scaly look. But that's just a matter of taste.


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## MEG Hal (Jan 1, 2003)

Liquide said:
			
		

> *Well I must post something in order to get Malessa to do another dragon. I know it is not a  full dragon but it is all I have managed to scrabble togather today.
> 
> Fire away your comments! *




I like the head of this better then the full pose, and in the full pose, one thing I thik is cool is aging the gragon, show some scars, holes in the wing etc...they are suppose to be a huge thing of legend, make em scary.  Both look good though bud.


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## Mathew_Freeman (Jan 1, 2003)

*Tallarn applauds the efforts of all*

Just skimming through and glancing at each one, I love them! Well done all. I'll try and come back another day with some more constructive criticism, but here's a big WOW! from me in the meantime.


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## megamania (Jan 1, 2003)

Looks good.  Wish I could show off my work but no way to it.


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## cthuluftaghn (Jan 1, 2003)

Malessa's not feeling very well today.  Perhaps she'll be back on her feet enough to shuffle over to the 'puter chair tomorrow and give some feedback.


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## Andrew D. Gable (Jan 2, 2003)

Nice.  Gives the idea of dragon-as-animal, which I'm rather fond of.  Dangit, it didn't reply with the pic.  Well, it's Liquide's last one.


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## LGodamus (Jan 2, 2003)

Makes me wish my scanner wasn't busted...I would love to participate.


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## Malessa (Jan 2, 2003)

brak1 said:
			
		

> *Well, here's my first attempt/failure.  At some point I began to realize I wasn't accomplishing what I had hoped and that I wasn't going to finish it.  I'll try again later.
> 
> One of the things I wanted to do was to give that fully armored sense of a dragon, covered in scales and impervious to harm.  However, as I went on I realized that the wings were not going to fit into that idea - how do you armour wings and yet make them believable for use in flying?  *




I like what I see so far on the scales and armor. The only thing that bothers me, and this is my own taste, was the teeth need to look sharper.


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## Klaus (Jan 2, 2003)

Some really cool dragons there, folks! Malessa's latest dragon reminded me a lot of Valerie Valusek's work back in 2E. Liquide's wingless dragon was cool, bearing some resemblance to Lockwood's black dragon.

Wolvorine, I really liked your leonine dragon, very Oriental in style. Try adding boar's tusks to the lower jaw, and a full mane going over the neck a bit. It also reminded me of a Ki-Rin (check the cover of Oriental Adventures 1E, by Jeff Easley).

Here are some tips on drawing dragons:

The anatomy: When drawing the skeletal dragon for Counter Pack: Dragons, I had to look over some pictures of animal skeletons, so I went over a lion, a bat and a brontosaurus. Picture this: Take a brontosaurus' neck, spine and tail, slap those on a lion's ribcage, fore and hindquarter's (but please do shrink the bronto, ok?  ). Then take a bat's wings and place them just a bit behind the lion shoulders. Now cover with the apropriate muscles. A dove has strong pectorals for the flapping, so look at that for a dragon's "wing pectorals".

The pose: You have NO idea how hard it is to fit a dragon in a 4x2 inch rectangle...  

Here's a nice trick: draw the spine of the dragon in a single line, from the tip of the tail to the base of the head, as if he were a snake of sorts. Avoid brisk turns, since it's the creature's spine. If the dragon is turning his head to see an enemy behind him, he'll turn his head, his neack and at least a bit of his forequarters.

The scales: look at pictures from crocodiles and iguanas for peebly-looking dragons (could be good for blues and blacks, who live in environments similar to gila monsters, iguanas and crocs). Iguanas also serve as cool resources for reds (specially the giant Galapago ones). For white, try fish scales, which are smaller. I like fish scales for metallic dragons, since they too have metallic hues.

I just did several new dragon pictures for a new edition of Counter Pack: Dragons (which was a special GenCon release), where I did full-bodied dragons, hatchlings of all cromatics (so cuuuute), plus some cool half-dragons. Ever tried doing that half red/half ogre from the MM Appendix? A really cool villain for a 3rd level party. 

Draw On!


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## Malessa (Jan 2, 2003)

Liquide said:
			
		

> *Well here is my wingless dragon, even though one pictures dragon with wings I wanted to try one without wings in this take.
> 
> It is still a draft but I wanted to play around with odd poses and I wanted to create an inpressive horned beast.
> 
> ...




This is impressive all right, I like the mouth and horns and such. Still doesn't remind me of a dragon though, but thats my taste. What if you tried combining your first dragon pic with this one, that might be cool?


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## alsih2o (Jan 2, 2003)

32 years old, drawing and doodling my whole life and it took a liquide thread to get me to start thinking about how dragons are shaped...here is a page of warm-up sketches and stylization notes.


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## Liquide (Jan 2, 2003)

Dalamar said:
			
		

> *Now that's one impressive beast, Liquide.
> 
> It seems to me his/her plating in the neck changes the 'order' of the plates. That is, from the second to last spike, the ones that are further from the head are under but from the spike towards the head it's vice versa. You get what I mean?
> The same effect is with the plating in the tail as compared to the chest. These aren't things you notice on first sight but I paid attention to because I messed the scales on the dragon I posted (check the forelimbs).
> ...




Well the plating order was a mistake on my part (I intended it to look the same all over), but now I can remodel it a bit and it will still look OK (even when it changes over) so it is not a big un. He was fun to draw in any case and I really enjoyed doing the horns since curved horns are usually very hard to get right (I think I nailed that in this sketch at least).

For scales I usually stick away from them until after I get most of the muscle lines and some line shading done since it is easier to place them then. And on another note I also stick away from small scales since they have a tendency to look "odd" when you puts lots of them on a large body (can be done in a good manner but it is hard to execute it properly).

Thanks for the comment, and good that you likes it in whole


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## Liquide (Jan 2, 2003)

MEG Hal said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I like the head of this better then the full pose, and in the full pose, one thing I thik is cool is aging the gragon, show some scars, holes in the wing etc...they are suppose to be a huge thing of legend, make em scary.  Both look good though bud. *




Well the full body is a remake of the one found in the MM by Mr. Lockwood (however redone a bit since I don't like to copy straight from a source), had fun doing it and mostly satisfied (not yet finished though).

The head was just something I did you play around with furls, bone structure and spikes of a dragon's face. Had no real source material for the drawing but was very fun to model. Could add a lot of detail to the "beak" and neck plates I think since it is most likey that those places are where the dragon will take the greater amount of physical damage.

And thanks for popping in Hal, now you just need to comment on the others art aswell as my newer stuff  (pun intended but in a friendly manner)


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## Liquide (Jan 2, 2003)

Andrew D. Gable said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Nice.  Gives the idea of dragon-as-animal, which I'm rather fond of.  Dangit, it didn't reply with the pic.  Well, it's Liquide's last one. *




The "animal" and feral look is probably since it is based on familiar animals aswell as it only has 4 limbs instead of 6 (wings remember). It is based on a lion/cheeta with some influences from a horse (will not tell which parts). The neck is redrawn from an Allosaur model I have at home and the tail is just drawn from the head.

Thanks for the comment  , the wingless one was quite fun to make (almost threw away the sketch in the early rouch draft since I wasn't satisfied but it turned out well enough it seems  )


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## Liquide (Jan 2, 2003)

Hi there Claudio always nice to see you pop in to these threads 



			
				Klaus said:
			
		

> *Some really cool dragons there, folks! Malessa's latest dragon reminded me a lot of Valerie Valusek's work back in 2E. Liquide's wingless dragon was cool, bearing some resemblance to Lockwood's black dragon.*




Well the head is actually inspired from both Lockwoods Black and Blue dragons in the MM, still tweaked everything to merge with my style a bit better. Horns are always fun to draw don't you think 



> _Originally posted by Klaus _*Wolvorine, I really liked your leonine dragon, very Oriental in style. Try adding boar's tusks to the lower jaw, and a full mane going over the neck a bit. It also reminded me of a Ki-Rin (check the cover of Oriental Adventures 1E, by Jeff Easley).*




Wouldn't that make it look very primal? I thougt in oriental mythos that dragons where pictured as wise intelligent beasts more then a fierce musucular and proven beast of battle. But it would certainly look cool  



> _Originally posted by Klaus _*Here are some tips on drawing dragons:*




Cool lets see if our views is similar then.



> _Originally posted by Klaus _*The anatomy: When drawing the skeletal dragon for Counter Pack: Dragons, I had to look over some pictures of animal skeletons, so I went over a lion, a bat and a brontosaurus. Picture this: Take a brontosaurus' neck, spine and tail, slap those on a lion's ribcage, fore and hindquarter's (but please do shrink the bronto, ok?  ). Then take a bat's wings and place them just a bit behind the lion shoulders. Now cover with the apropriate muscles. A dove has strong pectorals for the flapping, so look at that for a dragon's "wing pectorals".*




Well I agree on everything 'cept for the bronto tail and neck, since the bronto's neck wasn't intended (as far as science can tell today) to be used in an active and flexible manner it would look a bit static if drawn as they are supposed to be drawn. I prefer to base the neck on a big constrictor snake's body/neck since it give a better view of musles and is also a quite powerful view that supports the image and the "natural" pose of a dragons neck.

The tail also needs more flexibility then the brontos tail (a brontos tail is an extension of its spine and isn't so felixible as say a lions or even a lizards as far as sience can tell). I prefer to make it as the far end of a contrictor snake, or an extended version of a crocodiles tail.



> _Originally posted by Klaus _*The pose: You have NO idea how hard it is to fit a dragon in a 4x2 inch rectangle...  *




Heh  , well none of my dragon sketches are smaller then an A4 and I still have problems with fitting everything in (mainly the wings since they need to be so bloody HUGE!).



> _Originally posted by Klaus _*Here's a nice trick: draw the spine of the dragon in a single line, from the tip of the tail to the base of the head, as if he were a snake of sorts. Avoid brisk turns, since it's the creature's spine. If the dragon is turning his head to see an enemy behind him, he'll turn his head, his neck and at least a bit of his forequarters.*




Good solid advice, more or less the same technique I do for all things reptilian and quadraped. Easier to fit everything else in this way. After the spine I position in the shoulders to see how the weight of the creature will be distributed. When shoulders are positioned I place wings and where wings connect followed by the hind legs to place weight right. Final stage is to outline the head and the tails shape for me however  (final rough draft stage that is)



> _Originally posted by Klaus _*The scales: look at pictures from crocodiles and iguanas for peebly-looking dragons (could be good for blues and blacks, who live in environments similar to gila monsters, iguanas and crocs). Iguanas also serve as cool resources for reds (specially the giant Galapago ones). For white, try fish scales, which are smaller. I like fish scales for metallic dragons, since they too have metallic hues.*




All solid advice, I prefer a crocs back however, combined with bony structures from mammals to support the back though. Mainly since it gives a more primal and firece image. But solid and good advice.



> _Originally posted by Klaus _*I just did several new dragon pictures for a new edition of Counter Pack: Dragons (which was a special GenCon release), where I did full-bodied dragons, hatchlings of all cromatics (so cuuuute), plus some cool half-dragons. Ever tried doing that half red/half ogre from the MM Appendix? A really cool villain for a 3rd level party.
> 
> Draw On! *




Draw on mate, and that product I wanna see soon 
Please come back later or earlier for more disussion Claudio (always nice to do workshops and discuss techniques)


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## Liquide (Jan 2, 2003)

OK gimme a lilbreak here, will reply to all of you I just need to make me some coffee and get me a cig first. back in a bit.


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## Malessa (Jan 2, 2003)

Liquide said:
			
		

> *OK gimme a lilbreak here, will reply to all of you I just need to make me some coffee and get me a cig first. back in a bit. *




Same here, only lemme ask something first..

I'm going to go ahead and start painting my dragon pic, wondered if it would be alright if I posted progress report pics here so you all can help me not overdue it?


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## Liquide (Jan 2, 2003)

Malessa said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Same here, only lemme ask something first..
> 
> I'm going to go ahead and start painting my dragon pic, wondered if it would be alright if I posted progress report pics here so you all can help me not overdue it? *




do so its a workshop after all [still gettin coffee]


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## Klaus (Jan 2, 2003)

Liquide -> The reason I referenced a bronto's skeleton was to get a grip on how the vertebrae would look if they had to support such a big creature. And I wanted to see the size of the bones in the legs too! As far as movement go, I usually think of my cat when doing a dragon. I don't know, I usually associate pseudodragons with cats and go from there... 

Here's another good tip when designing creatures:

Creatures in hot climates tend to have bigger ears, tails and frills, to help disperse heat. Creatures in colder climates tend to have smaller ears and tails to help conserve heat.

Even though this doesn't seem to apply to fantasy creatures, if you follow general "guidelines" evolution teaches us, your creatures will look more real.

PS: Oh, the oriental dragon: Try this:
Draw a "squarish" head, as opposed to the triangular head of western dragons (which tend to look like horse heads). Add two human eyes on the front (not on the sides), a lion or tiger nose, a beard (not too long), some frills like Lockwood's gold dragon, and intead of the traditional horns, try adding antlers (like an deer's). Oh, and true oriental dragons (which would be Outsiders) are never drawn in full. They always have a cloud or something covering up at least a small section of their body, to keep the illusion that the dragon "could" be infinite. A taoist monk taught me that.


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## Wolv0rine (Jan 2, 2003)

Klaus said:
			
		

> *PS: Oh, the oriental dragon: Try this:
> Draw a "squarish" head, as opposed to the triangular head of western dragons (which tend to look like horse heads). Add two human eyes on the front (not on the sides), a lion or tiger nose, a beard (not too long), some frills like Lockwood's gold dragon, and intead of the traditional horns, try adding antlers (like an deer's). Oh, and true oriental dragons (which would be Outsiders) are never drawn in full. They always have a cloud or something covering up at least a small section of their body, to keep the illusion that the dragon "could" be infinite. A taoist monk taught me that. *




All while hoping that your Art Director doesn't assume that you're just trying to be lazy, or cover up some part of the dragon that you can't draw.


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## Malessa (Jan 2, 2003)

Klaus said:
			
		

> *
> Here's another good tip when designing creatures:
> 
> Creatures in hot climates tend to have bigger ears, tails and frills, to help disperse heat. Creatures in colder climates tend to have smaller ears and tails to help conserve heat.
> ...




Thanks Klaus on all your advice to us!  Learning something everyday, I wouldn't want it any other way!


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## Malessa (Jan 3, 2003)

Boy Liquide, thats the longest coffee break in history!! So put the cig. and cup down already and come tell me what you think so far! 

Everyone else fire away and tell me what you think thus far, I'm still not done yet, but here it is......


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## brak1 (Jan 3, 2003)

Oh.  Oh my goodness (faints dead away).  

Seriously Malessa, that dragon is amazing!  What a difference!  I thought it was kind of floating in midair before, but now I see It's crouching on the turret - completely changes the scale of the thing.  

I'll be back for more later, but this is definetely going on my desktop when you're done - I need to be able to look at this whenever I'd like to.


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## cthuluftaghn (Jan 3, 2003)

*Gasp!*

I... I... uh....  WOW.  Can't wait to get off work.  I've got some "special" congratulating to do when I get home.

xoxo


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## Malessa (Jan 3, 2003)

Thanks brak1, hope I did ok with this..

Nobody mentioned any booboo's so I think I'm done.  Y'all fire away...lemme know what you think.


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## Wolv0rine (Jan 3, 2003)

That's truthfully one *hell* of a color job, Malessa.  I have no idea what you did, but it was a frelling good idea.


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## Malessa (Jan 3, 2003)

Wolv0rine said:
			
		

> *That's truthfully one hell of a color job, Malessa.  I have no idea what you did, but it was a frelling good idea.  *




Thank you, although I hope I can remember how I done it for the next pic, lol....


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## Dalamar (Jan 3, 2003)

Malessa said:
			
		

> *Nobody mentioned any booboo's so I think I'm done.  Y'all fire away...lemme know what you think. *



Awesome! How did you color it? Altho I think that your scales suffered on the coloring. But amazing nonetheless. I've got a dragon coming up in a moment, I just need to finish it a bit and erase the pencil.


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## Dalamar (Jan 3, 2003)

Here it is. I think it has some mistakes, but that's what I get for learning to draw more types than perspective.


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## Malessa (Jan 3, 2003)

Dalamar said:
			
		

> *Awesome! How did you color it? Altho I think that your scales suffered on the coloring. But amazing nonetheless. I've got a dragon coming up in a moment, I just need to finish it a bit and erase the pencil. *




Thanks, hmm..how I colored it, well, used psp, separated everything into layers, color to target, some glowing edging, bevle, lighten and darken, smudging, and alot of trial and error and redo's, lol.  

I was dissappointed in the loss of the scales, but didn't know how to fix without messing them up completely. I already see alot of mistakes, but oh well, hopefully I'll do better next time.

Can't wait to see what you've done!

Doh! there it is.......silly me.


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## Malessa (Jan 3, 2003)

Dalamar said:
			
		

> *Here it is. I think it has some mistakes, but that's what I get for learning to draw more types than perspective. *




Yours looks a heck of alot better than my first, second, third, fourth, (you get the idea) atempts.  The one I did above is actually my 8th try, I think, lol, lost track... Anyway, your dragon has alot of great possibilities.  Use animal influences to help with anatomy, Liquide has that down pat, and can explain much better than I.  All and all, your doing good!  Best advice I can give is to keep practicing and don't give up and check out everyones suggestions on this thread.

Btw...I like the armor look you gave him, and the open mouth, thats always hard for me to do!


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## Dalamar (Jan 4, 2003)

> *Yours looks a heck of alot better than my first, second, third, fourth, (you get the idea) atempts.  The one I did above is actually my 8th try, I think, lol, lost track... *



Actually, I've drawn quite a few dragons in my time, now's just the first time I've actually tried to make them _really_ look like one.







> *Anyway, your dragon has alot of great possibilities.  Use animal influences to help with anatomy, Liquide has that down pat, and can explain much better than I.*



The problem here is, I can't draw normal animals. 


> * All and all, your doing good!  Best advice I can give is to keep practicing and don't give up and check out everyones suggestions on this thread.
> 
> Btw...I like the armor look you gave him, and the open mouth, thats always hard for me to do! *



I dunno about the mouth, there's something that bother me about it, I just can't get my hands on what it is excactly that bother me. And I will keep practicing. Oh, and here's a colored version of the same. Did it with Photoshop and a little of time.


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## annadobritt (Jan 4, 2003)

WOW!!!! I am very jealous of all you fantastic artists.

Malessa, your dragon on the tower is absolutely fantastic.  

Wish I had 1/16th of your talent. 

If I saw that dragon offered as a poster, I'd snap it up in an instant.

Has anyone ever tried to draw a Pseudodragon?


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## Wolv0rine (Jan 5, 2003)

I have an older pic (nearly 10 years old now, really..wow) that has what could be called a pseudodragon (I meant it to be one, but whether or not it meets the visual criteria is another matter).

I've been meaning to scan that sucker in for years now, but it's so d@mned big...  bigger than my flatbed scanner, and I'm too lazy to piece to together. 

(Why did I reply then?  Because it's 5 in the morning, I need to be up by at least noon, the 2 year old twins will likely wake up soon, and I'm goofy with need for sleep, that's why darnit. )


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## Malessa (Jan 7, 2003)

Hey Liquide, you off your coffee break yet??? lol, what do you think about Pseudodragons? Want to give it a try??


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## Liquide (Jan 7, 2003)

Not on a coffee break  , my computer has been over at a friends house in the week-end (we played a lot of games over network) and I have still not been able to get it home.

Just gimme a day to get the computer back home and I'll catch up (currently at me pops house).


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## Knightfall (Jan 9, 2003)

Malessa said:
			
		

> *Thanks brak1, hope I did ok with this..
> 
> Nobody mentioned any booboo's so I think I'm done.  Y'all fire away...lemme know what you think. *




The dragon is perfect, but I already told you that on your Illustrations thread.  One question, is the dragon attacking the castle?  Or is it just perched there?

If it's attacking, then I suggest modifying the castle's tower to look more... broken, crushed, with falling stones, buckling,  cracking, etc.  (I'm assuming you can still modify it in this way.)

BTW, now that you and Liquide are becoming really good, you might want to think about trying some different sorts of breath weapon designs to use with your dragons.

Of course, pictures of roaring lions or of snakes striking with fangs bared would give a good indication of how the mouth would need to be formed to release such a breath weapon.

Plus, you might want to do a sketch of a dragon in flight.  I'm sure everyone's up for the challenge.  A gold dragon, with oriental influence, in flight over a mountain or swooping down over a city, breathing fire.  Yes, that's my challenge to the artists in the thread, which I'm not.  Maybe with a dragon rider.  

Cheers!

KF72


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## Knightfall (Jan 9, 2003)

Dalamar said:
			
		

> *Here it is. I think it has some mistakes, but that's what I get for learning to draw more types than perspective. *




Dalamar, IMO, the head and neck need to be bigger, longer.  Either that or streamline the body a little.



			
				Liquide said:
			
		

> *Well here is my wingless dragon, even though one pictures dragon with wings I wanted to try one without wings in this take.
> 
> It is still a draft but I wanted to play around with odd poses and I wanted to create an inpressive horned beast.
> 
> ...




Liquide, I loved this wingless dragon.  Looks very prehistoric and reminds me of the Felldrakes from Monster Manual II.

Cheers!

KF72


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## Dalamar (Jan 11, 2003)

Here's a nice, big green.


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