# Living with low expectations?



## sabrinathecat (Feb 16, 2014)

One of my tenants just returned custody of an apartment to me.
Wow.
I have cleaned up worse, but never from a tenant I chose.
Even allowing for the fact that small children were there, they treated my place like a slum. They made me look like a slum-lord.
Atrocious, Disgusting, and disgraceful. I had to ask him how he could live like this. He blamed his wife. Damn, you've got two hands. You've got a bucket and sponge.
Carpet that is supposed to last 10-15 they wrecked in 5. Never replaced a light-bulb. (only about 6 of 20 bulbs work). They've destroyed the garbage disposal. The refrigerator has had all the handles and internal pieces broken (and thrown away). Oh, all the batteries are gone from the smoke detectors, of course. And they managed to break a window. "Oh, it was like that when we moved in. See, it's on the outside." I have pictures of everything from when they moved it. I pointed that out. "Oh no, it was there. I thought you knew." Oh, the front door is broken (there's nothing for the dead-bolt and knob to anchor to). The wife said he broke it one night when he was mad. He said the wood was already split when they moved in. Yeah. Right.

Well, this is going to take a few weeks.
Not touching anything there in the dark (one light switch was covered in grime and grease--yuck I can still feel it on my fingers, and I've used soap and dish soap)

Now, the topic I propose to discuss: How could someone live like that? If you move into a place, and everything is nice, freshly painted, new flooring, new light fixtures, clean, shiny, clean, refurbished, _clean_... How do you let it get this bad? You saw what it was like. You lived in it. You know what it can be... How, and more importantly WHY, would you let it devolve that far. This was nothing like what I saw last spring when I made an annual inspection, so most of this is from the last 6-9 months.
What is the mindset? 
Is is: "I don't care; it's not my property=it's not my problem; I just live here"?
Is it "This is what I'm used to, so that's what I expect, even if someone shows me better"?
Is it "I'm not happy unless I can see cooking grease on all the walls"?
Is it "I don't value my self, so I deserve to live in muck"?
Is it "I don't have a problem with this."?

Something else?

Thoughts?
Opinions?


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## Homicidal_Squirrel (Feb 16, 2014)

sabrinathecat said:


> One of my tenants just returned custody of an apartment to me.
> Wow.
> I have cleaned up worse, but never from a tenant I chose.
> Even allowing for the fact that small children were there, they treated my place like a slum. They made me look like a slum-lord.
> ...



That sounds pretty bad. I'm assuming you will be using their security deposit to fix the place up, right?



> Now, the topic I propose to discuss: How could someone live like that? If you move into a place, and everything is nice, freshly painted, new flooring, new light fixtures, clean, shiny, clean, refurbished, _clean_... How do you let it get this bad? You saw what it was like. You lived in it. You know what it can be... How, and more importantly WHY, would you let it devolve that far. This was nothing like what I saw last spring when I made an annual inspection, so most of this is from the last 6-9 months.
> What is the mindset?
> Is is: "I don't care; it's not my property=it's not my problem; I just live here"?
> Is it "This is what I'm used to, so that's what I expect, even if someone shows me better"?
> ...



It can be one, none, or a mixture of several of them. In my line of work, I've dealt with clients that are very poor to obscenely wealthy. I've seen million dollar homes look like they belonged in the worst ghetto in town. It's amazing how some people live.


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## Kramodlog (Feb 16, 2014)

It's pretty easy to live in a dirty place, it just doesn't have to botter you.


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## Elf Witch (Feb 16, 2014)

I think there are a lot of reasons for this to happen. 

Some people are just slobs and don't care. 

But judging from the fact that six months ago things were not as bad I would guess that with these people some kind of stress arose in their lives making them feel overwhelmed or depressed. They maybe having marriage problems and both were letting resentment stop them from behaving like adults. 

Then of course mental illness can be an issue, it is with hoarding.

I do think a lot of renters do develop the idea that it is not theirs so why care. I personally don't get that I am a renter and I want my home to look nice.


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## sabrinathecat (Feb 16, 2014)

Oh, the marriage fell apart, no question. But that's only part of the equation.
Sad thing is that this guy has been cleaning for the last 2 weeks, and it is still this bad.
The terrible part is that no matter what happens, the kids in the family suffer.


On a lighter note, I've noticed that the renters having the most money trouble are almost always the ones who move out leaving the most loose change on the floor, or in cupboards, or what-not. Guess that's part of the poor-money-management skills.


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## Janx (Feb 16, 2014)

It's a lack of respect for the home.  Not just as your property, but as the place this family shared.

I live in a 30-year old neighborhood (in houston, that's old).  The houses aren't run down, but we're not nice and new like all the other subdivisions that have now popped up in the last 5-10 years around us.

The yack-hole renter across the street who apparently lost his old house to financial issues has said such awesome things as "I would never buy a house in this subdivision" implying he'd get something better.  Meanwhile, he's got the nice car with shiny rims, his wife babysits children in the front driveway, and he parks his trailer for work (appliance installer) on his lawn overnight.

I'm expecting a jesus toilet shrine to pop up in the flowerbed any week now.  Heck, with the cars they got and the rap booming from them, I expect them to be drug dealers or something.

These people are so dang low class trailer park, they don't even know it.

So I see a lack of respect for where he is, and for the level of quality we actually have.  Ain't like we expect manicured lawns.  Just keep the music down and the lawn clear.


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## Kramodlog (Feb 16, 2014)

I can understand the level of music, but the lawn is really none of your business. Cut or uncut, it really has no impact on your quality life. 

And rap music = drug dealer? That kind of stereotype, really?


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## Janx (Feb 16, 2014)

goldomark said:


> I can understand the level of music, but the lawn is really none of your business. Cut or uncut, it really has no impact on your quality life.
> 
> And rap music = drug dealer? That kind of stereotype, really?




It's against the deed restrictions to have the grass too long, or to park vehicles on the lawn (like trailers).  Our neighborhood never had strong enforcement anyway, but its gotten more lax.  The lawn police don't seem to send out nasty grams anymore.  The result is, it looks like crap.  And when neighbors are trying to sell their house, it makes potential buyers think our neighborhood is fricking GunsPoint (where every other persons IS a drug dealer or gang member).

the way the guy parks it also means he is driving over the curb for his house and his neighbors (and part of their lawn), so he is also at actual risk of causing damage to stuff he don't own.


And yeah, white guy, listening to rap at high volume, spends all his money on his ride, missing teeth = ghetto = drug dealer stereotype.  I doubt he actually is a drug dealer, but he is likely clueless as to the stereotype he portrays.

There is a balance between "it's my property I can do whatever I want" and "everybody's house has to conform to exacting standards"

Since this guy doesn't even OWN the property, he has fewer rights than anybody in the whole dispute.

I am all for cutting out the sub-division approval board for color of paint, siding, and all that crap.  But that's under the expectation that people maintain a reasonable minimal appearance of quality (like mowing the lawn, not leaving actual garbage on the lawn, and not parking ginormous trailers that cause accidents around them or lawn damage to others).


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## WayneLigon (Feb 16, 2014)

sabrinathecat said:


> Oh, the marriage fell apart, no question. But that's only part of the equation.




It might be all that's needed. Depression is a major factor in a lot of things like this, because it eats at your self respect. When you have no self-respect, it's almost impossible to have respect for anything else, including stuff that belongs to other people. 

This dovetails into depression's favorite cousin, despair. Once things get so bad (and that level is different for everyone), you stop bothering because you see no way the situation will ever be fixed. 

Or it could be simple petulance mixed with those. Maybe his wife did all those tidy-up things and without her to do them, on some level he refuses to because he thinks if it gets left long enough, she'll come back to do them. Rationality be damned.

He probably does need some minor therapy, especially if the kids are toddlers and he's having to do all that craziness at the same time.

That would be if the cleaning and such was the only thing. The thing with the window and the door, though? That puts you right back on 'This place isn't mine, so fuggit' territory.

Maybe three sight inspections a year along with the annual close-in inspection.


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## Kramodlog (Feb 16, 2014)

Janx said:


> And yeah, white guy,



What does my ethnicity have do with the stereotype you mentioned? 



> listening to rap at high volume, spends all his money on his ride, missing teeth



Seems like rednecks to me.  



> There is a balance between "it's my property I can do whatever I want" and "everybody's house has to conform to exacting standards"
> 
> Since this guy doesn't even OWN the property, he has fewer rights than anybody in the whole dispute.
> 
> I am all for cutting out the sub-division approval board for color of paint, siding, and all that crap.  But that's under the expectation that people maintain a reasonable minimal appearance of quality (like mowing the lawn, not leaving actual garbage on the lawn, and not parking ginormous trailers that cause accidents around them or lawn damage to others).



Appearances are relative. I think an uncut lawn gives a more rural aspect that suburbia desperately needs. I'm not sure why other people should have a say on the appearance of my private property or what I store on/in it as long as it does not pause any danger.


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## Janx (Feb 16, 2014)

goldomark said:


> What does my ethnicity have do with the stereotype you mentioned?
> 
> Seems like rednecks to me.




We're talking about the guy.  Not you.  I have no idea of your ethnicity, and it matters not to the discussion of my white trash neighbor.

I was drawing a picture of what I percieve based on the guy.  You percieve a redneck.  If he thinks he's "better than this neighborhood" and the neighborhood's perception of him is "he belongs in the trailerpark dealing meth" than that's the the image he is protraying.  It doesn't matter what he really is.



goldomark said:


> Appearances are relative. I think an uncut lawn gives a more rural aspect that suburbia desperately needs. I'm not sure why other people should have a say on the appearance of my private property or what I store on/in it as long as it does not pause any danger.




If you lived on a 10 acre tract, what happens on your property pretty much is your business.

If you live in a neighborhood (with deed restrictions on these kinds of things no less), than what you do in your front yard DOES impact other people.  

That trailer almost got a kid hit, because somebody couldn't see around it when it was parked on the street.  My other neighbor got his side mirror whacked off because he'd parked on the street, the trailer got parked on the opposite side, and an idiot drove too fast between them.

This is a big boxy trailer.  About the maximum size a pickup can probably handle fully loaded.

Is it all the trailer's fault?  Of course not.  Is it a good idea to park something like that in a neighborhood on narrower streets?  Not so much.  Is it a good idea to park it on the lawn, given that doing so pretty much means running over curbs (that he doesn't own) and violating someone else's property?

The guy is a renter.  He's got no rights to do any of this compared to anybody else in the neighborhood.  And he is disrespecting the rules and social norms of the neighborghood.


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## Homicidal_Squirrel (Feb 16, 2014)

goldomark said:


> Appearances are relative. I think an uncut lawn gives a more rural aspect that suburbia desperately needs. I'm not sure why other people should have a say on the appearance of my private property or what I store on/in it as long as it does not pause any danger.



The way your home looks affects the property value of your home and the property values of the homes around you.


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## Kramodlog (Feb 16, 2014)

Homicidal_Squirrel said:


> The way your home looks affects the property value of your home and the property values of the homes around you.



Yeah, but that doesn't pose any danger to anyone's health.


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## Kramodlog (Feb 16, 2014)

Janx said:


> We're talking about the guy.  Not you.  I have no idea of your ethnicity, and it matters not to the discussion of my white trash neighbor.



You're the one who mentioned ethnicity, not me. 



> I was drawing a picture of what I percieve based on the guy.  You percieve a redneck.  If he thinks he's "better than this neighborhood" and the neighborhood's perception of him is "he belongs in the trailerpark dealing meth" than that's the the image he is protraying.



Don't judge a book by his cover. Besides, you also seem to have a rather negative opinion of your neighborhood.



> If you lived on a 10 acre tract, what happens on your property pretty much is your business.



You still can have neighbors. Why is it suddenly different?



> If you live in a neighborhood (with deed restrictions on these kinds of things no less), than what you do in your front yard DOES impact other people.



A lot of stuff impacts other people, but aside from dangerous behavior/material, why should we force people to behave in a certain way? Especially when it comes to appreance? The neighbor his missing some teeth? Why not force him to go to the dentist cause his appearence is naughty? Where do you draw the line?



> That trailer almost got a kid hit, because somebody couldn't see around it when it was parked on the street.  My other neighbor got his side mirror whacked off because he'd parked on the street, the trailer got parked on the opposite side, and an idiot drove too fast between them.



Seems the problem is how people drive in a residential area. 



> The guy is a renter.  He's got no rights to do any of this compared to anybody else in the neighborhood.



What rights are those? 







> And he is disrespecting the rules and social norms of the neighborghood.



Meh, social norms just limit the freedom of individuals for arbitrary reasons. They are often used to justify bullying and intmidation of people who commit the crime of being different. Now it's a redneck, later it's a gay couple or a Muslim family...


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## Lwaxy (Feb 16, 2014)

If I wouldn't employ house cleaners every few weeks, our place would look bad, too - health issues often prevent me from doing things so simple as sorting in the dish washer. And when I'm stressed I can't even think of cleaning. Has little to do with low expectations - they seem to have been ok at your last inspection. 

My guess is the family issues those people had caused them to not care - pretty much the house would look like they feel inside, and when the place you live in is bad, you feel even worse. Well, at least I feel worse when the house is messy.


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## Elf Witch (Feb 16, 2014)

goldomark said:


> I can understand the level of music, but the lawn is really none of your business. Cut or uncut, it really has no impact on your quality life.
> 
> And rap music = drug dealer? That kind of stereotype, really?




Actually an uncut unkempt yard does have an impact on my life if it brings down property values and makes me lose money selling my home or makes it hard to sell my home. Also if you don't take care of your lawn the weeds and other crap that grows instead of the grass does not respect your property line and stay there you have now made me have to do more work to maintain mine. The same when you let your trees grow over my property to the point that they are effecting my fence and my roof. 

I don't care what color you paint your home or if you pull up all the sod and replace it with rocks as long as you maintain your property to rules of the neighborhood and don't impact me with your lazy crap. 

Stereotypes exist for a reason and in the real world you get judged by how you maintain yourself. I am constantly being told I don't look like your typical food stamp recipient who shops at Walmart. That is because I make an effort. I may not have expensive clothes but they fit me and I never wear never bedroom slippers to the store. And Janx described this guy as the best stereotype he knew he painted a very good visual picture of the guy.


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## Homicidal_Squirrel (Feb 16, 2014)

goldomark said:


> Yeah, but that doesn't pose any danger to anyone's health.



Doesn't matter. You're affecting someone else.


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## Elf Witch (Feb 16, 2014)

goldomark said:


> What rights are those? Meh, social norms just limit the freedom of individuals for arbitrary reasons. They are often used to justify bullying and intimidation of people who commit the crime of being different. Now it's a redneck, later it's a gay couple or a Muslim family...




That is certainly how the extreme of this could work. The other extreme is the person who believes personal freedom trumps everything else and uses it as an excuse to be a inconsiderate jerk who does not grasp the concept that their rights end where someone else start.


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## Umbran (Feb 16, 2014)

goldomark said:


> Meh, social norms just limit the freedom of individuals for arbitrary reasons.




Sometimes, the reason seems arbitrary to us.  But that doesn't mean the norm doesn't (or didn't) serve some very good purpose.


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## Jan van Leyden (Feb 16, 2014)

sabrinathecat said:


> Is is: "I don't care; it's not my property=it's not my problem; I just live here"?
> Is it "This is what I'm used to, so that's what I expect, even if someone shows me better"?
> Is it "I'm not happy unless I can see cooking grease on all the walls"?
> Is it "I don't value my self, so I deserve to live in muck"?
> ...




While I do share your concern/disgust about the situation, I wouldn't want to pass judgement on the tenants. I'd assume that their behaviour is a symptom rather than a cause. Have you ever seen the home of some compulsive hoarder or the people who support dozens or hundreds of animals in their home? While it's absolutely disgusting to seem such a thing, these people are sick and need support and (probably) treatment.

Of course, you have to mind your own interest and get the problem solved, and you have my full support doing so, but may be these people just can't be judged using your/our frame of reference.

Anyway, best of luck to get this situation solved to your satisfaction!


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## Kramodlog (Feb 16, 2014)

Elf Witch said:


> Actually an uncut unkempt yard does have an impact on my life if it brings down property values and makes me lose money selling my home or makes it hard to sell my home.






Homicidal_Squirrel said:


> Doesn't matter. You're affecting someone else.



Meh, superficial people aren't my problem.


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## Kramodlog (Feb 16, 2014)

Umbran said:


> Sometimes, the reason seems arbitrary to us.  But that doesn't mean the norm doesn't (or didn't) serve some very good purpose.



So?


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## Kramodlog (Feb 16, 2014)

Elf Witch said:


> That is certainly how the extreme of this could work. The other extreme is the person who believes personal freedom trumps everything else and uses it as an excuse to be a inconsiderate jerk who does not grasp the concept that their rights end where someone else start.



Oh no, personal freedom doesn't trump everything. That is ridiculus. I'm just ok with limiting government intervention when it comes to legislating looks and appearances.


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## Grumpy RPG Reviews (Feb 17, 2014)

Some people are just trashy.


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## Umbran (Feb 17, 2014)

Folks, can we cut the politics, please?  Thanks.


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## Umbran (Feb 17, 2014)

goldomark said:


> So?




So, your assertion that social norms are arbitrary isn't, in my opinion, correct; not in the absolute sense it was stated, nor even as a broad generalization.  That's all.


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## Homicidal_Squirrel (Feb 17, 2014)

goldomark said:


> Meh, superficial people aren't my problem.



I'm sure you'd be saying the same thing if someone else caused the value of your condo to drop below what you paid for it. Considering that you actually view your condo purchase as an investment, I'm sure you would be exhilarated that your investment is no longer worth much.


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## Kramodlog (Feb 17, 2014)

Umbran said:


> So, your assertion that social norms are arbitrary isn't, in my opinion, correct; not in the absolute sense it was stated, nor even as a broad generalization.  That's all.



Not much of a defense of your position.


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## Kramodlog (Feb 17, 2014)

Homicidal_Squirrel said:


> I'm sure you'd be saying the same thing if someone else caused the value of your condo to drop below what you paid for it. Considering that you actually view your condo purchase as an investment, I'm sure you would be exhilarated that your investment is no longer worth much.



Have comes to terms with my positions to avoid being an hypocrite.


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## Homicidal_Squirrel (Feb 17, 2014)

goldomark said:


> Have comes to terms with my positions to avoid being an hypocrite.



Liar.


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## Kramodlog (Feb 17, 2014)

Homicidal_Squirrel said:


> Liar.



I hate you! /runs away crying


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## Homicidal_Squirrel (Feb 17, 2014)

goldomark said:


> I hate you! /runs away crying



/Chases Goldo, pointing and laughing.


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## Kramodlog (Feb 17, 2014)

What are you pointing with?


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## sabrinathecat (Feb 17, 2014)

I've cleaned up after hoarders and crazy-cat ladies before. (And irresponsible dog owners). So yeah.
Yes, there was a different culture there. It was... interesting.
And for 4 years, everything went mostly OK.
I don't know exactly what changed or when. Several different stories, and I don't know which, if any, of them are true. Honestly, none of my business.
But wow. Went back in this morning so I could actually see. Looks like the kids ground gum or clay or candy or ??? into the carpet. As well as oil and grease. Sharpe and crayon on walls. I think maybe nail polish based on the spots on one wall & ceiling. Less said about the kitchen the better.
I suppose I could post videos, but who would want to see them?


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## Elf Witch (Feb 17, 2014)

goldomark said:


> Meh, superficial people aren't my problem.




There is nothing superficial about not being able to sell your home when you need to because of having to move to another state or to sell it because you lost your job and the new one does not pay as much. Losing thousands of dollars because of someone else selfishness is hardly superficial. 

It is also not superficial to not want your place to look like a sty or want your health effected because your lazy neighbors don't maintain their pool and now it is a breeding ground for mosquitoes.  West Nile fever and other diseases are out of control in my area. We have to keep our pets even our indoor cats on heart worm medicine year round because it has reached epidemic portions.  They are constantly asking people to not keep stagnant water around yet people do.

I personally hate Nazi style housing associations but I do understand why they got popular it was because of asshats who felt that they didn't have to maintain their property and didn't care that they were hurting their neighbors.


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## Kramodlog (Feb 17, 2014)

Elf Witch said:


> There is nothing superficial about not being able to sell your home



I'm talking about people who will not buy a house simply because a neighbor hasn't mowed his lawn or has a rusty car in his driveway or cause hobo use your garage has a toilet or cause the neighborhood has three crack houses or the tavern next door is noisy at night...



> Losing thousands of dollars because of someone else selfishness [...].



That is pretty much the standard in a liberal economy. 



> It is also not superficial to not want your place to look like a sty or want your health effected because your lazy neighbors don't maintain their pool and now it is a breeding ground for mosquitoes. West Nile fever and other diseases are out of control in my area. We have to keep our pets even our indoor cats on heart worm medicine year round because it has reached epidemic portions.  They are constantly asking people to not keep stagnant water around yet people do.



I mentioned dangers and health hazards.


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## Zombie_Babies (Feb 17, 2014)

I keep bouncing between the idea of keeping my current home when we look to move in a couple of years and renting it out or just selling it and movin' on.  Renting it out is appealing but then I hear about stuff like this and it makes me reconsider.  Odds are I'll just sell cuz I don't wanna deal with crap like this.  If I had to, I'd probably lose my bleep when talking to someone like that.  Not a good thing.


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## Janx (Feb 17, 2014)

Elf Witch said:


> I personally hate Nazi style housing associations but I do understand why they got popular it was because of asshats who felt that they didn't have to maintain their property and didn't care that they were hurting their neighbors.




I suspect most people hate them as well.  Especially the ones that go to extremes.  Technically, we're supposed to have siding/roofing changes approved.  Nobody does in my neighborhood.  They just get the work done.

I'm OK with that level of non-enforcement.  Nobody's doing anything crazy with their changes like bright neon grafiti or something.


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## Janx (Feb 17, 2014)

Zombie_Babies said:


> I keep bouncing between the idea of keeping my current home when we look to move in a couple of years and renting it out or just selling it and movin' on.  Renting it out is appealing but then I hear about stuff like this and it makes me reconsider.  Odds are I'll just sell cuz I don't wanna deal with crap like this.  If I had to, I'd probably lose my bleep when talking to someone like that.  Not a good thing.




I'm inclined to think there is such thing as "Renter Culture", a mindset that you can treat it like crap, because you're renting.

I knew one person, who would take all the lightbulbs in his apartment when he'd move out, because he thought the landlord was a jerk.

We've all seen the stereotype comment from somebody driving a rental care of "It's OK, it's a rental"

I'm betting though, there's some overlap with the type of people, who just don't take care of stuff.  Even their own stuff.


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## Zombie_Babies (Feb 17, 2014)

Janx said:


> I'm inclined to think there is such thing as "Renter Culture", a mindset that you can treat it like crap, because you're renting.
> 
> I knew one person, who would take all the lightbulbs in his apartment when he'd move out, because he thought the landlord was a jerk.
> 
> ...




I know a lot of people that have rental properties and that's why I'm interested - there's some real nice perks.  Thing is, I also hear a lot of awful stories about stuff people do to these rental properties and how terribly difficult it is to evict them.  I just don't think I wanna get into all that.

I've also seen - and fixed - the results of the nasty renter a couple of times.  I don't want that sort of thing happening to something that's mine.  It can be devastating.  My one friend's house took tens of thousands to set right after the renters left and before he could move his family in.  Insane.


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## Bullgrit (Feb 17, 2014)

My current home and my previous home were located in neighborhoods with rather extensive home owners association rules. We knew these rules before we bought our homes, and we could have not bought if we disagreed or found them too restrictive.

In both neighborhoods, we and others rarely bothered with getting stuff approved before just doing whatever we wanted/needed. But we (everyone) didn't do anything do anything wild or strange or asshatish. Often we'd just ask our immediate neighbors, "Hey, we're going to do X. Will that be a problem?" So long as nobody is a jerk or an idiot, most rule enforcement isn't needed. But it's when someone gets a hair up their butt to do something over the top that association rules have to be enforced.

Some friends of ours lived in a neighborhood where one family painted their house a bright weird blue. It really did stand out as an oddball. That situation had to go to some kind of arbitration with the association to get resolved. The family pointed out that others painted their houses without permission beforehand, and everyone else pointed out that they didn't paint their houses colors outside the written rules. It's one thing to want a unique home, but it's more when force that uniqueness on everyone else -- the neighbors are the ones who have to look at your uniqueness all day.

I know of another instance in a different neighborhood where a family put an above-ground pool in their backyard. Their next-door neighbor's house was directly down hill. They worried that if that pool ever got a hole or burst, the water could seriously damage their home. The down-hill neighbor had a legimate worry, and the pool was against the rules as written, but the pool family pitched a fit and everything had to be handled by lawyers. The pool was removed, and the neighbors came to hate each other until one of them moved.

Bullgrit


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## Zombie_Babies (Feb 17, 2014)

Homeowners' associations suck.  You spend an awful lot of money for the privilege of having someone there to tell you what you can't do.  F that noise.


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## Bullgrit (Feb 17, 2014)

As to the OP: 

My brother was, at one time, a maintenance guy for an apartment complex. He's told me stories that make me shake my head. Like a dart board set up in front of a window. Spoiler: the window got broken.

My step-father did some maintenance at an appartment complex we lived in for a while. As a child, I went with him to several calls in the apartments, but I don't remember seeing anything really bad. But that was in the 70s, so I wonder if times have changed some things.

I lived in a one bedroom apartment when I was in college. When I finished and moved out, some weeks later I got a letter from the apartment manager saying that I wasn't getting my security deposit back because the refrigerator and kitchen counter were damaged and had to be replaced. This was a ridiculous charge, so my dad and I went there to see what they were talking about.

The damage was a couple of minor dents that you had to view from the right angle to even find, and a few scratches that you could only barely feel with focused attention. I don't remember making those dents and scratches, and I had no way of proving I didn't make them -- no record of them when I moved in. I was highly pissed, but there was no ground for me to fight it from.

But when I visited the apartment when they were replacing the fridge and counter, I saw the current state of the place. There were three college kids living there, (remember: one bedroom apartment). The place was a mess, and stunk, (smokers and a cat). I was/am naturally very neat and clean, but compared to those kids, I was damn fastidious.

Bullgrit


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## Janx (Feb 17, 2014)

Zombie_Babies said:


> I know a lot of people that have rental properties and that's why I'm interested - there's some real nice perks.  Thing is, I also hear a lot of awful stories about stuff people do to these rental properties and how terribly difficult it is to evict them.  I just don't think I wanna get into all that.
> 
> I've also seen - and fixed - the results of the nasty renter a couple of times.  I don't want that sort of thing happening to something that's mine.  It can be devastating.  My one friend's house took tens of thousands to set right after the renters left and before he could move his family in.  Insane.




There's probably a % ratio of good to bad tenants over the long term.  I've got a friend who's family owns multiple rental properties.  They get some bad ones, but they aren't overwhelmed with constant issues.

I imagine it's something you'd want a certain amount of self-handymanishness, or a cheap guy to fix things that come up.  And some serious effort in screening applicants.  Background checks or references.

being in the right neighborhood and charging a premium may also help in that it filters out riffraff who see the whole area as a slum, and thus treat your property like the surroundings.

Oddly, right before this topic surfaced, I was just talking to somebody about how in TV shows, Hollywood shows us some NYC apartment that is just terrible, and I wondered why the occupants didn't spend $50 in paint, a brush and tape to spruce it up.


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## Janx (Feb 17, 2014)

Zombie_Babies said:


> Homeowners' associations suck.  You spend an awful lot of money for the privilege of having someone there to tell you what you can't do.  F that noise.




$235 a year in my neighborhood.  Pays for things like park maintenance and off-duty cop patrolling

As I said, it varies by neighborhood.  Like BG, my neighborhood is pretty laid back.  Somebody would have to be pretty blatant (apparently more blatant than parking a huge arse trailer on the lawn).

Other neighborhoods, if you simply buy the same paint you already have, you may get yelled at because they changed the colors and expect everybody to comply when they re-paint.

Or you'll get a nastygram if you leave out your can 3 hours past the truck going by.

Those are the places we all hate.


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## Elf Witch (Feb 17, 2014)

It is not just homeowner associations in Coral Springs were I used to llive you had to file a permit to paint your house it was free but it had to conform to one of the approved city colors.  And not keeping your lawn up or your property garbage free or number of other offenses got code enforcement out the first time a warning the second time a fine that hit you daily. And they would put liens  on your property which were a pain if you tried to sell. On the upside Coral Springs is a pretty mice city to live in. Their goal is to keep it looking nice to stop what causes other neighborhoods to go down hill. When property values plummet people move out and neighborhoods become slums.

Renting like any business has its ups and downs. You need good security deposits, background checks and do maintenance checks to make sure the property is being taken of.

It is not always tenants who are bad I have had my share of bad landlords who dragged their feet about repairs, tried to steal the security deposit when I moved out , tried to break Florida law.


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## Janx (Feb 18, 2014)

It may also be worth noting, that in the land of Texas, there's no such thing as Zoning (at least most of texas).

As such, I can't do a damn thing to stop somebody from buying the undeveloped property behind my house and bulldozing it to make way for a mega-church.  Good bye nature, hello flood insurance as the y alter the natural drainage in the area.

So yeah, I'm not a big fan of homeowners associations as a whole. 

 But I see the problem they are trying to solve.  If only they'd have bought up the land back there...


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## sabrinathecat (Feb 18, 2014)

Basic advice: always take pictures of everything before you move in, and right before you hand the keys back. Landlords sometimes do a "final walk-through inspection" with the tenant, but usually not. Likewise, a landlord should always take pictures of everything before handing the keys to a tenant, and right when (s)he gets them back.

There is a renter's culture. There is also, I'm ashamed to say, a Landlord culture. "It's good enough for tenants." UG. I can't tell you how many times one realtor told me that when I was looking at one property and was alarmed at the state of it and asking questions. If it wasn't something the current owners had just done to try to push up the price (and done badly BTW), that was his answer. I didn't buy the place. And I told my agent I never wanted to see that realtor again.

I have spent $35K on clean-up jobs. I have spend $2k on clean-up. One time I got away with only $750, but that was because the guy was a full time contractor and bored, so he fixed things up and made improvements--he got his whole deposit back.

Yeah, that's the other thing I run into a lot--"pppfft I paid a deposit. I'm never gonna see it. So F-them." sad.

I thought the same thing watching "Fast and Furious" or some such street-racing movie. "If those Dumb-shots would spend half the $ they put into that car fixing up their houses, it would be a pretty great neighborhood. Nope: Phallic crutch wins out over brains."

Being a landlord isn't bad if you stay on top of stuff. In fact, it can be very secure and helpful. And you learn a lot. I would never have tackled some of the basic carpentry when I started that I now do out of habit. And this is one thing technology has improved. Used to be I had to fax an application to the agency, then wait a couple hours to get a reply, and hope the toner and paper didn't run out. Now I log onto a web site (sometimes I have to wake up my account if it has been dormant too long), and get a reply within about 5-10 minutes. So if I'm running more than a couple applications, by the time I enter the next one, the first one is ready.

TSP is wonderful stuff. That and a scouring sponge have done wonders. Have mopped down the bedrooms and put a primer coat in one. Carpets ripped out. Should have all three painted tomorrow. After that, the hallway, bathroom, and living room. Kitchen dining room is going to be last because I'm remodeling and upgrading the cabinets and counter tops.
Hired someone to replace the front door--some things you want done by professionals. A lot of stuff needs to be done, but it already looks way better.


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## sabrinathecat (Feb 20, 2014)

End of Day Three:
Bedrooms are painted.
Carpet is pulled out.
Contractors have been by to put together a plan for the kitchen remodel.
New oven arrived. Fridge and Dishwasher due Friday.
I need to look at flooring for kitchen and bathroom.
Walls in dining room and bathroom have been cleaned and sanitized (Bleach and TSP)

Guy did come back to clean out the junk he left in the garage and back yard.

I've put together a basic parts shopping list so i can get a sizable batch of the next stage done over the next 3 days.

Then I am at the mercy of others.

Three more people came by today wanting to rent the place, and I haven't even put a sign up. $2500/month didn't even phase them.


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## Scott DeWar (Feb 20, 2014)

sabrinathecat said:


> One of my tenants just returned custody of an apartment to me.
> Wow.
> I have cleaned up worse, but never from a tenant I chose.
> Even allowing for the fact that small children were there, they treated my place like a slum. They made me look like a slum-lord.
> ...




Wow, where do I start . . . . .

First I would like to mention that My boss from my electrician work owns some rentals and this:


> "I don't care; it's not my property=it's not my problem; I just live here"



is the prevalent mindset from what I have experienced.

some of the grimiest things simply have to be simply replaced. like those switch plates. if they are metal, then try running them through the dishwasher.

I am sorry you have to go through this. Many time I would go and do a repair for him and the occupant would expect something to be repaired that they broke with the attitude of "Well he is making ALL this money off me" when first of all the occupant was on section 8 and not paying any more then 50 dollars per month, second he was actually barely making any profit off the venture after all the repairs he has to do.


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## Janx (Feb 20, 2014)

Scott DeWar said:


> Wow, where do I start . . . . .
> 
> First I would like to mention that My boss from my electrician work owns some rentals and this:
> 
> ...




To cross link this topic, this lack of understanding about money and costs is similar to the "Getting paid for GMing" thread where I've broken down how to compute the basic rate you'd need to charge.

People just don't think about what things cost.  How much of that $2500/month is sabrinacat getting as profit?  How much is paying off the existing mortgage and repairs/maintenance?


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## sabrinathecat (Feb 20, 2014)

Fortunately, I have a standing rule: only one major debt (anything over $10K) at any time. This has saved me from disaster, when other family members have... ...ended up in less than stellar situations.
One mortgage and multiple rental properties means my mortgage will be gone this year.
That just leaves property taxes, utilities, and repair expenses.
So, this year, I'm effectively getting nothing in the way of profit from this unit.
Next year, however, unless something goes wrong, modest profit comes into play.

Of course, one of the things I do is constantly find new minor improvements, or tackle things like replacing fences--maintenance, but only something you have to do once every 10-30 years (barring accidents or major storms).

You have to figure any time someone moves out, at least 1 month's rent is gone. If the place is bad, two or three.
I've told the horror story of the 2-bedroom that ran $35K to fix.
I could go into my own little economics interpretation, but really, most of it is so basic...


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## Scott DeWar (Feb 20, 2014)

sabrinathecat said:


> Fortunately, I have a standing rule: only one major debt (anything over $10K) at any time. This has saved me from disaster, when other family members have... ...ended up in less than stellar situations.
> One mortgage and multiple rental properties means my mortgage will be gone this year.
> That just leaves property taxes, utilities, and repair expenses.
> So, this year, I'm effectively getting nothing in the way of profit from this unit.
> Next year, however, unless something goes wrong, modest profit comes into play.




you are smart



sabrinathecat said:


> I've told the horror story of the 2-bedroom that ran $35K to fix.
> I could go into my own little economics interpretation, but really, most of it is so basic...




ACH! 
Thirty Five T-H-O-U-S-A-N-D ?!?!


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## sabrinathecat (Feb 21, 2014)

Scott DeWar said:


> you are smart
> ACH!
> Thirty Five T-H-O-U-S-A-N-D ?!?!




Not really. In fact there are times I am spectacularly dumb and foolish.

Yep, $35k.
These people had carved phone numbers into walls (because they can't keep track of pencils?) and when I booted them out, started training their dog to use the heat vents as fire extinguishers. Pretty much had to gut the place, nearly down to the studs. New appliances, new kitchen, new bathroom, new flooring. Repairs to garage. Took 2.5 months of solid work. Oh, new windows too. Oh, and they never paid their rent for the 2 months they were fighting the eviction. Needless to say, their deposit was a joke. These were not people I picked--I inherited them when I bought the place.
Nice part was that once my divorce started, I could move right into that unit. Been there ever since.


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## Scott DeWar (Feb 21, 2014)

ready made emergency lodging.


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## sabrinathecat (Feb 22, 2014)

Today was a non-progress day. Lots of running around, not getting much done. Oh well. Some prep work for tomorrow morning I guess. Still disappointing and frustrating.

Up to $2.79 in loose change left scattered about the place--not a record (that was over $10), but I'm not done yet, and still a decent showing.


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## Scott DeWar (Feb 22, 2014)

But not any where near what they did in damage.


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## sabrinathecat (Feb 23, 2014)

Scott DeWar said:


> But not any where near what they did in damage.




No, it's pocket change. But I find the tenants who had the most trouble paying rent also have the most change scattered in their apartments. You can argue poor money management skills or what have you. The net result is an amusing footnote to me, but not much more.


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## Scorpio616 (Feb 25, 2014)

sabrinathecat said:


> Is it "I don't have a problem with this."?



For me, yeah. I can tolerate a LOT of mess, to levels that would make many recoil in disgust. The neat freaks can bandy about terms like unhygenic, squalor, hoarder, but in my book, unless it is smelling or drawing vermin, it probably doesn't 'bug' me. 

Still it's uncool to do that to someone else's stuff.


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## sabrinathecat (Feb 25, 2014)

Let's be clear on one distinction. There's clutter, there's grime, and there's filth.
Clutter is lots of stuff. I live in a clutter of lego and books (and D&D minis). I still clean, but maybe not often enough.
Grime is when oil and dust build up over time, usually around food.
Filth is grime gone nasty, where it is attracting vermin and silverfish.

This time, it was somewhere between grime and filth (OK, the range hood was definitely filth). Cleaning up after crazy cat lady 5 years ago was grime, filth, and clutter.

And the guy did finally show up last night (at 6pm) to pick up the rest of his stuff. Huzzah.


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## Lwaxy (Feb 27, 2014)

Just to note, silverfish can show up everywhere. Like annoying relatives. 

We (and all neighbors) have TONS of them, thanks to living next to the city's open rain drainage system (which is even classified as biotope, which I suppose is technically correct). None of the supposed methods to get rid of them work and the exterminator basically said it would be a losing battle. But the cats have fun with them. I'm wondering if I should name them and invite them to my RPG sessions...


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