# Samurai Archer



## Zmajdusa (Nov 15, 2017)

So the Samurai fighter subclass has an ability that lets you get advantage on weapon attacks for one round as a bonus action, and recharges after a long rest.  The elven accuracy feat gives you another d20 for making attacks with advantage when using a specific stat to attack with.  At level 6 a wood elf fighter could open up with an action surge and use the attack actions to get 4 attacks with 3d20 to roll for hitting, + 10 to hit (20 Dex+Archery Style+Proficiency), doing 1d8+5 per hit.  Not the best alpha strike in the world, but it is one that will let action surge shine.  Once you get to 8th, sharpshooter makes it drool worthy.


----------



## mellored (Nov 16, 2017)

Crossbow expertise is still going to do better then elven accuracy.   Both for nova, and for regular turns.

But at 11+, having double advantage on 6 attacks (+ sharpshooter damage) is going to destroy things.  At least a few times a day.


----------



## Zmajdusa (Nov 16, 2017)

Crossbow Expert doesn't improve your chance to hit unless you are in melee, a bad place to be for a ranged attacker.


----------



## mellored (Nov 16, 2017)

Sean Holmes said:


> Crossbow Expert doesn't improve your chance to hit unless you are in melee, a bad place to be for a ranged attacker.



No, it gives you an extra attack.  2 attacks > 1 attack with super advantage.

And it's every round, not just 3 per day.

But again, at higher levels, when you have advantage on more attacks, it changes.  7 attacks vs 6 attacks with super advantage will see a shift.


----------



## FrogReaver (Nov 16, 2017)

Sean Holmes said:


> So the Samurai fighter subclass has an ability that lets you get advantage on weapon attacks for one round as a bonus action, and recharges after a long rest.  The elven accuracy feat gives you another d20 for making attacks with advantage when using a specific stat to attack with.  At level 6 a wood elf fighter could open up with an action surge and use the attack actions to get 4 attacks with 3d20 to roll for hitting, + 10 to hit (20 Dex+Archery Style+Proficiency), doing 1d8+5 per hit.  Not the best alpha strike in the world, but it is one that will let action surge shine.  Once you get to 8th, sharpshooter makes it drool worthy.




My only concern is that your damage will be lack luster all but 3-4 rounds a day.  You really need at least one other way to get advantage than the samurai's to make it shine IMO.  3 levels of rogue would help it a lot IMO.  Bonus action hiding and assassinate features would work great here.  

While it won't hit the damage values that a sharpshooter can an interesting (IMO) and more consistent way to get damage is to dual wield and use one attack every turn to try and prone an enemy.  This requires a decent athletics score.  When you desire to you can still use the samuai feature and get all attacks including the bonus action one to have super advantage.


----------



## Zmajdusa (Nov 16, 2017)

The Crossbow Expert ability makes you use a bonus action to attack with a hand crossbow, so you can't do it the same turn you use the Samurai ability.  Yeah, they are sort of in the same boat as the Barbarian, with the barbarian having a 1 minute rage vs the single round.  But at level 10 the Samurai regains a use of their advantage ability when they roll initiative and are out of uses.  So they can alway get an alpha strike in between short rests by 10.  A long time to wait to do something impressive more than 3 times a day, but they are still effective ranged damage before then.  Warlocks would be better at gaining consistent advantage by using the devil sight darkness combo.  The Hexblade patron would make it pretty evil too.


----------



## mellored (Nov 17, 2017)

Sean Holmes said:


> The Crossbow Expert ability makes you use a bonus action to attack with a hand crossbow, so you can't do it the same turn you use the Samurai ability.  Yeah, they are sort of in the same boat as the Barbarian, with the barbarian having a 1 minute rage vs the single round.  But at level 10 the Samurai regains a use of their advantage ability when they roll initiative and are out of uses.  So they can alway get an alpha strike in between short rests by 10.  A long time to wait to do something impressive more than 3 times a day, but they are still effective ranged damage before then.  Warlocks would be better at gaining consistent advantage by using the devil sight darkness combo.  The Hexblade patron would make it pretty evil too.



Yea, things change at 10, and more so at 11.
But early on, crossbow expertise just beats elven accuracy.

And if you have darkness, there's no need for the samurai.  Take battlemaster and get advantage _plus_ precision strike, which doesn't even take your bonus action.


Honestly, I don't think I would play a samurai below level 10.  Though still better than champion.


----------



## Zmajdusa (Nov 17, 2017)

Yeah, but the Darkness is a situational advantage, blindsight and tremor sense get around it.  Granted, most of the time you are doing better as a Battlemaster than a Samurai if you have that option.  Though it is easier to go full Fighter Samurai and have the Adavantage ability that doesn't care if the enemy has tremorsense, blindsight, or truesight, plus Sumurai give proficiency in Wisdom saves at 7th.


----------



## mellored (Nov 17, 2017)

Sean Holmes said:


> Yeah, but the Darkness is a situational advantage, blindsight and tremor sense get around it. Granted, most of the time you are doing better as a Battlemaster than a Samurai if you have that option. Though it is easier to go full Fighter Samurai and have the Adavantage ability that doesn't care if the enemy has tremorsense, blindsight, or truesight, plus Sumurai give proficiency in Wisdom saves at 7th.



You can often out range blindsight and tremor sense with a bow. And there pretty rare at low levels. So it's not that situational.

I missed the wisdom save, that's nice. So I wouldn't play a samurai below level 7.


Now higher level samurai are something else.

I mean, just looking at how many attacks per day they get their dice/advantage on... (assuming 6 battlers and 2 short rest).
Battlemaster vs samurai.
level 3 = 12 vs 6
level 5 = 12 vs 12
level 7 = 15 vs 12
level 10 = 15 vs 18
level 11 = 15 vs 27
level 15 = 18 vs 27
level 17 = 18 vs 36
level 20 = 18 vs 48

Not _quite_ as lop sided at higher level since battlemaster get's to keep their bonus action (6 extra attacks per day with feat), but you can see how well samurai scales later on.


----------



## Zmajdusa (Nov 17, 2017)

Battle master is nice, but as an archer build, Samurai seems significantly better, especially after level 8 when you would easily have a 20 Dex with point buy or standard, and sharpshooter.  The elven accuracy attacks and sharpshooter should allow you to consistently out damage a battlemaster 3 rounds a day easily.


----------



## mellored (Nov 17, 2017)

Sean Holmes said:


> Battle master is nice, but as an archer build, Samurai seems significantly better, especially after level 8 when you would easily have a 20 Dex with point buy or standard, and sharpshooter.  The elven accuracy attacks and sharpshooter should allow you to consistently out damage a battlemaster 3 rounds a day easily.



Battlemasters Precision strike adds +4.5 to hit (+6.5 at level 15), on any attack you want.
Samurai's advantage adds +4.5 to hit (+7 with elven archery), and takes a bonus action that you need to decide on beforehand.  (Plus some nice THP).


----------



## FrogReaver (Nov 18, 2017)

Samauri is more defensive and well rounded.  BattleMaster is more offensive IMO.

A lot depends on your expected number of encounters and short rests when comparing these subclasses.

I would play a samauri over a battleMaster for these reasons:
1.  I want more than just offensive power.
2.  The offensive power gained through the samurai subclass is solid.  It's not the best offense ever (that's the battlemaster), but it definitely enables a few really good alpha strikes in a day.  Personally I'm a big fan of alpha strikes.
3.  Samauri builds in 15 temp hp per day at level 3 (the temp hp scales too) and Wisdom saving throws at level 7.  This really improves his survivability and defenses (especially against control spells).
4.  While it's not a lot the samurai does get a boost to persuasion checks.  This at least gives him a decent social skill even if doesn't prioritize charisma.  Very helpful as Wisdom makes a lot more sense on a samurai.  Makes the samurai at least useful in social situations.  
5.  If you expect few short rests or fewer fights in the day then that favors the samurai a lot.

Honestly, I'm liking him more after this analysis than I did before.


----------



## mellored (Nov 18, 2017)

FrogReaver said:


> Samauri is more defensive and well rounded.  BattleMaster is more offensive IMO.



That that applies a lot more to melee builds than ranged ones.
Archers tend not to use THP until their melee guys are already unconscious, and you can't give it away.

A melee samarurai can certainly make use of the THP at level 3.   I'd put it on par with battlemaster for that, beating it at 10+.
Unless you have other sources of advantage (friendly sorcerer with twin greater invisibility).


----------



## FrogReaver (Nov 18, 2017)

mellored said:


> That that applies a lot more to melee builds than ranged ones.
> Archers tend not to use THP until their melee guys are already unconscious, and you can't give it away.
> 
> A melee samarurai can certainly make use of the THP at level 3.   I'd put it on par with battlemaster for that, beating it at 10+.
> Unless you have other sources of advantage (friendly sorcerer with twin greater invisibility).




Just to be a little over the top...

I didn't realize being an archer made you immune to damage until all melee weapon allies were downed.  I'll certainly have to check into that...


----------



## mellored (Nov 19, 2017)

Samurai12/gloom stalker 4 would be pretty nasty.


----------

