# Toughness Feat Alternatives?



## Oryan77 (Mar 30, 2009)

The Dracolyte PrC in the Draconomicon requires the Toughness feat. I've never been a fan of that feat and it seems like a complete waste. 

Does anyone have any suggestions for a feat that would be a good alternative for this PrC? Or does anyone have any house rules for the Toughness feat? Like maybe gain +3 HPs each level, or would that be overkill for the feat?


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## Dannyalcatraz (Mar 30, 2009)

I'm not a fan of the feat myself.

As I recall, though, aren't there some feats that showed up in other WotC sourcebooks that have Toughness as a prereq?  You know, ones that may make it a decent choice?

Be that as it may, can you tell us (since I don't have the D-con in front of me) why they may have made Toughness a prereq for that PrCl?


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## Alzrius (Mar 30, 2009)

I'd suggest replacing it with Improved Toughness (_Complete Warrior_; _Libris Mortis_; _Monster Manual III/IV/V_). The prerequisite is base Fort save +2, and it grants 1 hit point per level/Hit Die.


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## Oryan77 (Mar 30, 2009)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> can you tell us (since I don't have the D-con in front of me) why they may have made Toughness a prereq for that PrCl?




I don't see any reason why Toughness is a prereq. The PrC is basically a cleric class that gains a new Domain, Alertness, a Wyrmling, Sleep & Paralysis Immunity, Darkvision & Low Light Vision, and can Summon a Dragon. So I figured changing the Toughness prereq wouldn't be a big deal since it doesn't seem to add to the flavor of the class in any way.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Mar 30, 2009)

I can see Toughness for a PrCl like that- it represents the innate toughness of the critter in question.  However, I can also see that it isn't necessarily the best one out there.

If you look in _Dragon Magic_, you can find a feat called Dragontouched.  It lets you qualify for Draconic Heritage feats without being a sorcerer- possibly a good prereq.

That means you could get things like Draconic Skin (get some NatAC), Draconic Presence (cause fear effects when casting), Draconic Resistance (resistance to an energy type) and some others from _Dragon Magic_ or _Draconomicon_ (if any exist).


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## Ogrork the Mighty (Mar 31, 2009)

Oryan77 said:


> I don't see any reason why Toughness is a prereq. The PrC is basically a cleric class that gains a new Domain, Alertness, a Wyrmling, Sleep & Paralysis Immunity, Darkvision & Low Light Vision, and can Summon a Dragon. So I figured changing the Toughness prereq wouldn't be a big deal since it doesn't seem to add to the flavor of the class in any way.




It's only a big deal insofar as the feat requirement is the "price" that needs to be paid to get access to all the goodies the prestige class has to offer. If you simply replace the Toughness requirement (a sub-optimal feat) with another feat that is more beneficial, then it kinda defeats the "cost" of the prerequisite.

I second the suggestion to use Improved Toughness instead.


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## JacktheRabbit (Mar 31, 2009)

No alternative feat is needed or should be allowed. It is fairly common for Prestiege classes to have a crap feat as aprt of its requirement to make you pay something for it.


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## Fallen Archon (Mar 31, 2009)

Masters of the Wild expands off of Toughness with three other feats:

Dragon's Toughness
Prereq: Base Fort +11
Benefit: +12 hp
Special: You can gain multiple times

Dwarf's Toughness
Prereq: Base Fort +5
Benefit: +6 hp
Special: You can gain multiple times

Giant's Toughness
Prereq: Base Fort +8
Benefit: +9 hp
Special: You can gain multiple times

Sure, they didn't get the update to 3.5, but my gm allows 'em anyway.


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## Jeff Wilder (Mar 31, 2009)

By the time _Draconomicon_ was in development, WotC was well aware that Toughness was among the weakest feats.  It's likely that its inclusion in the prestige class in question was a deliberate balancing factor.


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## Asha'man (Mar 31, 2009)

My version of the Toughness feat is as follows:
You gain +1 hp, and +1 hp per HD. So 2 hp for level 1, and 1 for every HD thereafter. This is retroactive, and essentially means that your HD becomes one size bigger. I don't use Improved Toughness or allow Toughness to be taken repeatedly, but I don't know if there would be any balance issues with doing so.


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## radja (Mar 31, 2009)

in my 3.5 game I've houseruled improved toughness to have a prereq of toughness instead of the normal prereqs. I've also slightly upgraded toughness: it not only increases your maximum hitpoints by 3, it also adds 3negative HP before you die. a character with the toughness feat doesn't die until at -13HP instead of at -10 HP.


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## amethal (Mar 31, 2009)

In my campaign I allow players to replace the Toughness requirement with Skill Focus (Craft [basketweaving]) or Ride by Attack.


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## Aus_Snow (Mar 31, 2009)

Sturdy, from Arcana Evolved, is a somewhat stronger version of Toughness. The Warmain class, also from that ruleset, gets it straight away (at 1st level) for free. Tough class, that one (what with d12 Hit Die as well!)

Sturdy grants double your Con bonus to your HP, or 4, whichever is higher.


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## Liquidsabre (Apr 2, 2009)

Asha'man said:


> My version of the Toughness feat is as follows:
> You gain +1 hp, and +1 hp per HD. So 2 hp for level 1, and 1 for every HD thereafter. This is retroactive, and essentially means that your HD becomes one size bigger. I don't use Improved Toughness or allow Toughness to be taken repeatedly, but I don't know if there would be any balance issues with doing so.




Yea I did something similar. I just combined Toughness and Improved Toughness to provide +3 HP at 1st level and an additional +1 HP per level after that.


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## frankthedm (Apr 2, 2009)

Oryan77 said:


> I don't see any reason why Toughness is a prereq. The PrC is basically a cleric class that gains a new Domain, Alertness, a Wyrmling, Sleep & Paralysis Immunity, Darkvision & Low Light Vision, and can Summon a Dragon. So I figured changing the Toughness prereq wouldn't be a big deal since it doesn't seem to add to the flavor of the class in any way.



No it does not add to the _flavor_ of the class. It may very well add to the _balance_ of the class.

Here is one way to put it.


Jeff Wilder said:


> By the time _Draconomicon_ was in development, WotC was well aware that Toughness was among the weakest feats.  It's likely that its inclusion in the prestige class in question was a deliberate balancing factor.



Here is another way.


DocMoriartty said:


> No alternative feat is needed or should be allowed. It is fairly common for Prestige classes to have a crap feat as part of its requirement to make you pay something for it.


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## clearstream (Apr 2, 2009)

radja said:


> in my 3.5 game I've houseruled improved toughness to have a prereq of toughness instead of the normal prereqs. I've also slightly upgraded toughness: it not only increases your maximum hitpoints by 3, it also adds 3negative HP before you die. a character with the toughness feat doesn't die until at -13HP instead of at -10 HP.




I was running with *'You get a +2 feat bonus to Con for the purpose of calculating hit points'* but what you have is very nice too. I wanted something simple that would unambiguously scale as you gained levels.

-vk


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## Darklone (Apr 5, 2009)

Liquidsabre said:


> Yea I did something similar. I just combined Toughness and Improved Toughness to provide +3 HP at 1st level and an additional +1 HP per level after that.




Same here.


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## Arkhandus (Apr 5, 2009)

3 hp/level would be too much.  Improved Toughness from Complete Warrior gives 1 hp/level and can only be taken once.  It requires something like +2 or +4 Base Fortitude Save, I forget which.

My houseruled version of Toughness can be taken multiple times, and gives 4 HP.  It doubles at 10th-level onward (retroactively).


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## Angrydad (Apr 5, 2009)

radja said:


> in my 3.5 game I've houseruled improved toughness to have a prereq of toughness instead of the normal prereqs. I've also slightly upgraded toughness: it not only increases your maximum hitpoints by 3, it also adds 3negative HP before you die. a character with the toughness feat doesn't die until at -13HP instead of at -10 HP.




Consider the -13 HP idea yoinked. 

On a more related note, I've houseruled Toughness to grant what Improved Toughness currently grants (+1 HP per HD) and find that it is something my players actually consider taking. Sure, at the lower levels it is less power than the Toughness feat RAW but it quickly becomes more useful once you reach level 4+. I'd even consider letting players take it multiple times if they wanted, though I might add a Fortitude save requirement so I don't get someone loading up on it early on.


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## reierh (Sep 3, 2011)

Currently My games use a system similar to the Wound Point and Hit Point system found in Unearthed Arcana and Star Wars.

very briefly:

Toughness = +3 Wound Points
Improved Toughness = +6 Wound Points
Greater Toughness = +9 Wound Points
Advanced toughness = +12 Wound Points 
Epic Toughness = +15 Wound Points
Legendary Toughness = +18 Wound Points

Dwarf's Toughness = +1 HP/HD
Giant's Toughness = +2 HP/HD
Dragon's Toughness = +3 HP/HD


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## Celebrim (Sep 4, 2011)

My version of toughness grants you 3 + your base fortitude save hit points.*

This is slightly worse than most upgrades of toughness that you'll typically see, but I think a lot of people underestimate the value of toughness as a feat simply because it doesn't scale.  If your game isn't going past 3rd level or so, Toughness as written is one of the stronger feats available.  Once you make the feat scale upward at all it becomes much more attractive.  

For example, exactly what single feat in core with no prerequisites is better than +23 hit points at 20th level?  That's like upgrading your class to the next higher hit die for a feat.  Presumably rewritten thusly, you'd no longer be able to take Fortitude multiple times, but if you could I'd have a hard time resisting the urge to turn every general feat into Toughness.  A human with +184 hit points sounds pretty nice to me.   And think about it, what other feat with no prerequisites would be strong enough to consider taking it for every slot if you had the chance?

There is also some interesting synergy in my game with Great Fortitude, in that I've modified that feat to modify your base fortitude save by +2.  So, if you take both feats that would be a maximum +7 h.p. at first level, with essentially one extra hit point every two levels after that.


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## Dandu (Sep 4, 2011)

> For example, exactly what single feat in core with no prerequisites is better than +23 hit points at 20th level?



Combat Reflexes, if you've decent Dex.


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## kitcik (Sep 4, 2011)

This could be a new thread. Best non-metamagic feats with no pre-req's.

Combat Reflexes
Improved Initiative
Nymph's Kiss
Law Devotion
Travel Devotion


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## Dandu (Sep 4, 2011)

Leadership has a prerequisite of character level 6, which is fairly easy to obtain, but a prerequisite nonetheless.


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## RainOfSteel (Sep 4, 2011)

Way back at the end of 2000, when I was preparing to run a D&D 3.0 campaign, multiple players approached me during character creation to point at Toughness and mention that the feat was underpowered as written.

At the time, I agreed and house ruled they could role one extra hit die (for the class that provided the feat) if they took it and take their chances on what number came up.

Basically, verbatim Toughness has been at or near the bottom of feat utility since the beginning.


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