# Feast For Crows rocks so far!(small spoilers)



## Melkor Lord Of ALL! (Nov 1, 2005)

A Feast For Crows does not not disappoint me, contrary to some opinions. Maybe action isn`t as epic as in ASOS, but it is really dark, vicious and personal, vile men and women plot, and crows indeed feast upon Westeros. So far I have read Sansa chapters( Littlefinger rocks again, and sweet girl learns much from him), most of Cersei( she is so arrogant, vicious and yet blind, fun to read. Even has some lesbian action!). Finally the best so far, Iron Isles. Asha is great character, but her Pirat uncle Euron is the biggest badass ever! Here is his great quote:



"Who knows more of gods than I? Horse gods and fire gods, gods of cedar wood, of empty air..... I know them all! I have seen their people garland with flowers, and shed the blood of goats and bulls and children in their names. And I have heard their players, in half a hundred tongues. Save me, succor me, make me wealthy.... protect me! Protect me from my enemies, protect me from the Darkness, from the slayers. Protect me from Silence!( his ship)"-He laughed- "Godless? Why, Aeron, I am the godliest man ever to raise sail! You serve one god, but I have served thousand. From Ib to Asshai, when men see my sails, they pray."

The priest raised a bony finger. "They pray to trees and golden idols and goat-headed abominations. False gods...."

"Just so" said Euron, "and for that sin I kill them all. I split their blood upon the sea and sow their screaming women with my seed. Their little gods cannot stop me, so plainly there are false gods."


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## Kahuna Burger (Nov 1, 2005)

wow. I have to say this description and excerpt reinforces my plans involving the book.  :\


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## Eboe (Nov 1, 2005)

*Its out?*

Ive been so out of touch that I didnt even realize it was out yet.


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## Banshee16 (Nov 2, 2005)

Cool..

It's going to be a long year waiting for the paperback..

Banshee


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## KenM (Nov 2, 2005)

Eboe said:
			
		

> Ive been so out of touch that I didnt even realize it was out yet.




  Its out in the UK. Out in US this Tuesday. 11/8.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Nov 3, 2005)

Which would explain why the bookstore didn't have it when I visited.  Maybe this Saturday.


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## Imperialus (Nov 6, 2005)

the offical North America release date is November 8th.  I got my copy today (the joys of working in a book store .  I won't post spoilers but suffice to say... it's damn cool.


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## Steel_Wind (Nov 8, 2005)

Well, I just finished it.  As there is a small spoilers warning in this header, I'll make us of it and warn you all now - but I promise I have not included anything below of any consequence. It's pretty much spolier free.

General: I began to read and did not stop unless duty called  - of the type that could not be put off. Five years was too long a wait.

But the truth is, I'm still waiting. We got half a book. An enjoyable enough half, but this is no feast - it's merely an appetizer. 

*The Good * 

Martin is, as ever, a masterful writer. If the pacing in this one suffered, the prose didn't.

_A brief look inside the schemes of Littlefinger_.  The man tells Sansa many of his plots and methods and he truly is a master of his craft.  The rest of the players are rank amateurs compared to Lord Petyr.  You almost have to cheer for the man.

_A glimpse at the Cult of the Drowned God_  Aeron Damphair is not only a fanatic and a prophet, he is one damned spooky man with a creepy religion and a baptismal rite that takes no prisoners.  This man is the only fictional character in a fantasy novel who has actually scared me a little.

_Dunk & Egg vs Brienne and Pod_ Those who have read the tales of the Hedge Knight will notice various references to Dunk and Egg throughout AFFC.  But it's more than the references. There is a clear nod towards the duo being reborn as Brienne and Podrick Payne.  Sadly, neither get enough time in the book. No one really get enough time in the spotlight except the one point-of-view character that you will come to with a *sigh* as the novel wears on.

_Cersei's Smallest Council_ While there is a great deal to be said about Cersei Lannister below, the chapter on the Small Council is well done. There is no exposition or narrator's description or judgments made during the look see inside the council meeting. Instead, the reader has an unfiltered opportunity to see how well the new Regent of the Seven Kingdoms has chosen her players.

*The Bad*

_Where's Arya?_ It's not that Arya is not in AFFC. Ostensibly she is. But there's just not enough of her. Not nearly enough.

_Samwell Tarly_ Ditto for Sam. Sam and Aarya are the two points of view that most fans of the series want to read about most  - given what we have in AFFC. But we see neither of them enough - which is a real shame.

_Dorne_ I guess this was necessary but a dozen pages on being trapped in a prison cell gets as tedious to read as it was for the prisoner to endure. 'Nuff said.

*The Ugly*

_ Cersei...Cersei...Cersei_ Look. It's not that they weren't enjoyable chapters. Any of them taken on their own has its moments and they do advance the metaplot of the Seven Kingdoms well enough.

But between Jaime and Cersei, the book is well over half about them. I didn't do a page count, but I expect Cersei grabs at least a third of the pages on her own. It's just too much; in fact, it's way too much.

Had there been another 200 pages of Brienne Arya and Sam, it would have been ok. But as it stands, about half way through the book you reach the end of the chapter and the next page says "Cersei" and you start to groan: "Again?? Gods no - not again!!"

I would have much enjoyed 40 pages less of Cersei and 40 pages more of Sam and  Aemon Targaryen. I would say "that's just me" - but I don't think so.

*Overall * 

A good burger and fries to a starving man is a welcome meal. But it isn't a banquet - and this just isn't a Feast.  For those waiting for the REAL contnuation of the story, AFFC isn't it. It's a Lannister in Baratheon's tunic - a pretender to the throne.   My big fear is that a _Dance with Dragons _ may not be "it" either.

Don't get me wrong. I love this series - but the absence of Jon, Danny Bran and Tryion is painfully obvious at times.  That's not to say that the other great characters GRRM has come up with weren't equal to the task - but he simply didn't use the other great ones he does have  enough. Not nearly enough.

3.75 out of 5.

Get to work George!! Five years and only this to show for it? SLACKER!! Get writing!!


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## Steel_Wind (Nov 8, 2005)

Further to my review/complaint that there was just way too much Cersei and not enough Sam, Sansa and Arya in a FFC, here's the chapter/page breakdown in AFFC:

Prologue: Oldtown 15 (no real pov character)
Cersei 10 chap,  148pp
Jaime 7  94pp
Brienne 8  115
Dorne 4, 54
Sam 5, 59
Arya 3, 40
Iron Isles 5, 69
Sansa 3, 50


As you can see, the noverl is *very light * on Sam, Sansa and Arya pov chapters.  A series  that became beloved by readers as being about the Starks and their struggles has turned very much into a story about the Lannisters and their struggles.  Particularly given the absence of Tyrion and the domination of the pov character, Cersei, this was not a welcome development. 

I imagine the pacing and "non-Stark" perspective of AFFC is effected very much by the absence of Jon and Bran from a book that was originally intended to contain their chapters - but there you have it.

In the end, the devotion of only 3 chapters to Arya seems to be a real kick in the teeth to fans who have been waiting for five years.  I somehow expect that the same light treatment of Bran awaits us in a Dance with Dragons. 

Both Bran and Arya develop the "magic" side of the story - and GRRM seems to want to save that plot element for when Winter sets in and the final battle against the Others is joined.


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## KenM (Nov 8, 2005)

I'm picking up the book today. But from what I read online, it will be a step down from the other books. All my favorite POV's were cut.  GRRM Better make this up in the next book or I'm done.


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## Justin (Nov 9, 2005)

Ok, perhaps some of you will remember my recent, Marvin-the-Robot-depression-inducing thread about not being able to find anything to read.  I'd mentioned that I don't like excessive sex and/or violence in my fiction (or in real life for that matter, but that's another can of wyrms).  But I have seen so many people raving about this series and I simply cannot understand it, based on my brief, ill-fated, 100-page excursion into A Game of Thrones.

So, I am honestly looking for an explanation of why so many people love this series.  What is it about it that people truly enjoy?  Did I just not give it enough time?  I would truly love to read a series that is as expansive and richly detailed as this one seems to be, if only I could get past my aforementioned dislikes.  

Justin


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## BastionLightbringer (Nov 9, 2005)

Justin said:
			
		

> So, I am honestly looking for an explanation of why so many people love this series.  What is it about it that people truly enjoy?  Did I just not give it enough time?  I would truly love to read a series that is as expansive and richly detailed as this one seems to be, if only I could get past my aforementioned dislikes.
> 
> Justin





Well for me, I love the characters and how nobody is invincible. There is no superhuman fighting machines. I feel the violence helps deliver the feel and danger of the medievel time period. Martin does tend to go overboard w/ the sex , but thats in the 2nd & 3rd books(IIRC), and is usually important to the plot.

As far as not giving them enough time, I was hooked by page 70(i think) of Game of Thrones. I say keep reading, It can get overwhelming with all the characters and families, but the more you read the more it makes sense.

Bastion


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## Kahuna Burger (Nov 9, 2005)

Justin said:
			
		

> Ok, perhaps some of you will remember my recent, Marvin-the-Robot-depression-inducing thread about not being able to find anything to read.  I'd mentioned that I don't like excessive sex and/or violence in my fiction (or in real life for that matter, but that's another can of wyrms).  But I have seen so many people raving about this series and I simply cannot understand it, based on my brief, ill-fated, 100-page excursion into A Game of Thrones.
> 
> So, I am honestly looking for an explanation of why so many people love this series.  What is it about it that people truly enjoy?  Did I just not give it enough time?  I would truly love to read a series that is as expansive and richly detailed as this one seems to be, if only I could get past my aforementioned dislikes.
> 
> Justin



no. You have tastes that do not include this series of books. I congratlate you on figuring this out in 100 pages, rather than trudging on through three books assuming people would not have put onto a sucky series until you were finally forced to acknowlege that you had wasted your time.

The people raving about this book have different tastes than you. If you think it sucks, it sucks for you and I can assure you that it will only suck more if you force yourself on. I read the first three books and they still sucked by the end. (for me - I know my tastes aren't universal, because someone must be eating all that poi.)


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## Steel_Wind (Nov 9, 2005)

Simple. 100 pages only? You bailed too soon. For me it didn't get going till page 150 or so.

This is the best fantasy series ever written. I do not hedge on that opinion. Given that this opinion is widely shared, it would seem reasonable that where there is a great deal of smoke there is *some* fire.

I suggest that you pick up a _Game of Thrones_, start again, and continue to read.


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## Justin (Nov 9, 2005)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> Simple. 100 pages only? You bailed too soon. For me it didn't get going till page 150 or so.
> 
> This is the best fantasy series ever written. I do not hedge on that opinion. Given that this opinion is widely shared, it would seem reasonable that where there is a great deal of smoke there is *some* fire.
> 
> I suggest that you pick up a _Game of Thrones_, start again, and continue to read.




I appreciate your enthusiasm, but could you elaborate, much as BastionLightbringer did a couple of posts ago, on what about the series that you like so much?

One thing I realized, however, is that I had the same problem with Peter Hamilton's "Night's Dawn" series.  Talk about sex and violence!  I liked a lot of the characters and concepts in the first two books (one book for those outside the US), but the extreme, graphic nature was a severe turn off.


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## Justin (Nov 9, 2005)

Kahuna Burger said:
			
		

> no. You have tastes that do not include this series of books. I congratlate you on figuring this out in 100 pages, rather than trudging on through three books assuming people would not have put onto a sucky series until you were finally forced to acknowlege that you had wasted your time.
> 
> The people raving about this book have different tastes than you. If you think it sucks, it sucks for you and I can assure you that it will only suck more if you force yourself on. I read the first three books and they still sucked by the end. (for me - I know my tastes aren't universal, because someone must be eating all that poi.)




Thanks for the blunt honesty.  This is what will most likely be the case, though I wanted to make sure I was giving the series a fair shake.  I read the ~1200 pages of Hamilton's _Reality Dysfunction_ twice before giving up on trying to proceed with the rest of the series, and that was a painful read.


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## Starman (Nov 11, 2005)

Well, I just finished reading it. Was it as good as the first three books? No. It was still good; I enjoyed it. However, I was let down.

It felt very obvious that this was half of a book. I think that including the missing POVs from Jon, Daenerys, Bran, Davos, and Tyrion would have fleshed things out more and made this book all that it could have been. Their absence was a huge weight that this half of the book just couldn't lift. 

Likes:
The glimpses into Littlefinger's plotting was interesting, although it didn't really go anywhere. He did a clever job of buying time in the Vale, though. It was also nice to see Sansa maturing and beginning to learn from Petyr. 

Arya's chapters were a treat as usual. She's going to be quite the killer. My jaw dropped when she killed Daeron so casually.

Sam's chapter's were also good. I'm glad that he finally bedded Gilly and it was good to see more of Maester Aemon. 

I'm glad Cersei seems to be reaping her due at the end of the book.

Jamie backhanding Conningham for speaking ill of Brienne. I also liked his training with Payne. He seems to be slowly regaining some of his skill.

It was cool to learn more about the Iron Islands and Dorne. Hotah was cool and Damphair was scary. 

Dislikes:
Cersei. I know Martin needed somebody's viewpoint for events in King's Landing, but did it have to be Cersei. I disliked her more with every chapter. 

Since Martin did not give the characters in Dorne and the Iron Islands their own names for the chapters, I got the impression that we would not be seeing these viewpoints often or again. It would have been nice if he had found one viewpoint in each to stick with so we could get some continuity. Aeron would have been perfect for the Iron Islands as he is in the thick of it and he is an interesting character. Areo Hotah seemed a lot more interesting than Arianne Martell, but I don't know if he was involved enough to give a good view of what was going on in Dorne. 

I like Brienne, but her story didn't really go anywhere until the end. 

Death has not improved Catelyn at all. I like her even less now that she's dead. How does that work?

Of course, my biggest complaint is still the missing half of the book. I wonder if it wouldn't have been better for Martin to divide it in half by time rather than by character. The story has grown to be about more than the Starks, although they are still the heart of it. I want to read about them, darn it!


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## Steel_Wind (Nov 11, 2005)

Based on the reactions posted to the SoIaF forums, virtually everything you've said Starman appears to be the general overall reaction.

There are a few interesting easter eggs though. Here's a few for you:



Spoiler



1. The Alchemist who kills Pate in the Prologue matches the description, feature for feature, of the form taken by Jaqen H'gar when he changed before Arya's eyes.

2. The Sphinx,  Alleras in Oldtown is not male; she's a female in disguise. The riddle is that she is Serella of Dorne in disguise.

3. Sandor Clegane is alive and was the grave digger on the Quiet Isle near Saltpans.

4. Theory: the Horn of Darkness found by Euron is not a horn of Dragon control, it's the Horn meant to bring down the wall. The Horn of Jaruman found by Mance is probably the one to control dragons. Fire opposes Ice; Ice opposes Fire.  When Euron uses it as his hole card against Dany - he'll get his cooked. But by sounding it, the horn may already have caused a crack in the Wall.


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## Steel_Wind (Nov 11, 2005)

Justin said:
			
		

> I appreciate your enthusiasm, but could you elaborate, much as BastionLightbringer did a couple of posts ago, on what about the series that you like so much?




On reflection, no. ASoIaF has a few hundred fan sites, is #1 this week on Amazon.com and, save for Mr. Potter,  is currently the most popular fictional series in print.

So... no, I think, on reflection, there is more than enough material out there for you to decide why people love the books and why they are so popular. Comparing them to your reaction regarding a relatively obscure SF series seemed to me wholly bizarre.   In the end, you are either going to read this series or you're not.  I feel no need to seek converts to the cause or to advocate the series any further.  If sexual themes make you uneasy - then they do.

Up to you.


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## KenM (Nov 11, 2005)

So will "A Dance with Dragons", the next one due out be only the other half of Crows? Or will it be a a full book?


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## Starman (Nov 11, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> So will "A Dance with Dragons", the next one due out be only the other half of Crows? Or will it be a a full book?




I thought Martin said somewhere that it was going to include more than just what he didn't include in _Feast_. 

SteelWind, I saw the first three of those on the SoIaF boards. I'm embarrassed to say that I didn't pick up on any of them, other than I knew Sandor wasn't dead. I was just reading too fast to find out what happened. Number four is an interesting theory, though. If we had Jon's viewpoint, we might have more information to go on to see how accurate it is.


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## Steel_Wind (Nov 11, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> So will "A Dance with Dragons", the next one due out be only the other half of Crows? Or will it be a a full book?




According to Martin's comment in _AFFC_'s postscript "_Meanwhile Back on the Wall_..." ADwD will be essentially the other half of AFFC.  At the time the decision to split AFFC was made, there were 300 pages or so of Jon and Dany left to write.

As to whether or not _ADwD _ will include more chapters on Arya is unknown. I hope that it does.  I expect it will be a Jon and Dany fest though - along with Tyrion and Davos - which can only be a good thing

After _ADwD_, we will be moving forward to the end of the series and resolution of the cliffhangers that confront the reader in _AFFC _ and - presumably - will confront us again in _ADwD_.

GRRM says the series will probably take 7 books now to finish. Given the glacial pace of AFFC, I wonder if it will require eight.


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## Digital M@ (Nov 12, 2005)

Seeing how I don't think I will enjoy this book very much, could one skip this and pickup the next book without missing too much.  Maybe if I just read the Sam chapters and a few of the others but I do not wish to read a book dedicaated to Jaie and his sister.


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## Steel_Wind (Nov 12, 2005)

Digital M@ said:
			
		

> Seeing how I don't think I will enjoy this book very much, could one skip this and pickup the next book without missing too much.  Maybe if I just read the Sam chapters and a few of the others but I do not wish to read a book dedicaated to Jaie and his sister.




No. You won't be able to skip it.

Don't get me wrong - it's not a bad book; it's a good book. If you are a big fan of the series - it's a very good book.

The problem is that the others in the series have been GREAT books. Accordingly, it looks a little dimmer by reason of its company.

Compared to 95% of the pap that passes as fantasy fiction published every year, this still walks all over the competition.

But _Storm of Swords _ it isn't.


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## EricNoah (Nov 13, 2005)

I'm about 100 pages in and am enjoying it immensely.  I also like knowing another volume is (probably) only a year away.


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## Vocenoctum (Nov 13, 2005)

Justin said:
			
		

> I appreciate your enthusiasm, but could you elaborate, much as BastionLightbringer did a couple of posts ago, on what about the series that you like so much?
> 
> One thing I realized, however, is that I had the same problem with Peter Hamilton's "Night's Dawn" series.  Talk about sex and violence!  I liked a lot of the characters and concepts in the first two books (one book for those outside the US), but the extreme, graphic nature was a severe turn off.




I enjoyed the books well enough, though I didn't find them great. The sex was excessive for me, and if the sex & violence in the first 100 pages was enough to draw you off, I'd not bother with more, because it only gets worse from there. Catelyn's chapters were the only one's I really detested, but by the time the trilogy was finished, I was done with the series.


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## Dark Jezter (Nov 13, 2005)

Starman said:
			
		

> Death has not improved Catelyn at all. I like her even less now that she's dead. How does that work?




Ugh.  Aside from all of the gratitious and completely unnessecary sex scenes and GRRM's love of killing off good guys just for shock value, Catelyn was my least favorite thing about the original trilogy.

Still, I'm looking forward to reading this book.  It's next on my reading list after I finish *Lonesome Dove.*


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## EricNoah (Nov 14, 2005)

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> Catelyn was my least favorite thing about the original trilogy.




Ha  we all have our "least favorites."  For me, it's Sam ... blech!

I personally like it when an author kills off his characters.  It leaves you with a real sense of suspense when you truly don't know if the other characters are going to live or die.


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## Dark Jezter (Nov 14, 2005)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> Ha  we all have our "least favorites."  For me, it's Sam ... blech!




I'm not too keen on Sam either.  Freakin' annoying crybaby is what he is. 



> I personally like it when an author kills off his characters.  It leaves you with a real sense of suspense when you truly don't know if the other characters are going to live or die.




Well, I'm not saying that major characters should be invulnerable, but after the "Red Wedding" scene in Book 3, it became very apparant to me that a surefire way to get yourself killed off in GRRM's books is to be a good guy.


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## Endur (Nov 14, 2005)

I think the book was great.  Although I agree I was hoping for another 1200 pages instead of 680.  

As to Sam & Arya, I don't mind the number of chapters we received.  I would have liked more about Maester Aemon, but what we received is sufficient.

As for Cersei, I think you realize that this is the last time we will see her with this many chapters.  Its because she is the only POV character who was in King's Landing when important events were going on.

My favorite points of view in all of his books:
Eddard Stark, Jon Snow, Jaime Lannister, Tyrion Lannister, Dunc


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## Broccli_Head (Nov 14, 2005)

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> Ugh.  Aside from all of the gratitious and completely unnessecary sex scenes and GRRM's love of killing off good guys just for shock value, Catelyn was my least favorite thing about the original trilogy.
> 
> .[/b]




And making sure bad guys hang on by the slimest of threads when they should be dead. 

Although, after SoS, I did have a better opinion of Jamie Lannister.


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## Banshee16 (Nov 15, 2005)

Do we find out what happened to Catelyn?  Why (and how) she came back?

Hopefully there's some vengeance coming up for the Red Wedding...

Banshee


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## Harmon (Nov 15, 2005)

I am a couple chapters in and I can't complain about it   

Though I feel that all the "heroes" are missing from Feast.


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## KenM (Nov 15, 2005)

Harmon said:
			
		

> I am a couple chapters in and I can't complain about it
> 
> Though I feel that all the "heroes" are missing from Feast.




  I feel its like Lucas did a Star Wars movie without Luke, Han, Leia, Chewie.


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## Dark Jezter (Nov 15, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> I feel its like Lucas did a Star Wars movie without Luke, Han, Leia, Chewie.



 (Insert cliche snarky comment about George Lucas and/or the prequel trilogy here)


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## Steel_Wind (Nov 15, 2005)

Banshee16 said:
			
		

> Do we find out what happened to Catelyn?  Why (and how) she came back?




Yes, kinda and yes.


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## Starman (Nov 16, 2005)

Endur said:
			
		

> My favorite points of view in all of his books:
> Eddard Stark, Jon Snow, Jaime Lannister, Tyrion Lannister, Dunc




That reminds me of another part of Feast that I enjoyed, when Brienne picked up a new shield and it had Dunk's heraldry on it. I wonder where that will lead?


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## iwatt (Nov 16, 2005)

I'll be getting AFfC in the mail sometime next week (damn slow shipping to South America    ), and I don't think I'll have tuime to reread the previous books. Any ideas were I can find some good summaries?

Thanx


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## Starman (Nov 17, 2005)

iwatt said:
			
		

> I'll be getting AFfC in the mail sometime next week (damn slow shipping to South America    ), and I don't think I'll have tuime to reread the previous books. Any ideas were I can find some good summaries?
> 
> Thanx




Try here.


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## iwatt (Nov 17, 2005)

Starman said:
			
		

> Try here.





Thanx, nice link


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## Endur (Nov 19, 2005)

A Game of Thrones is AWESOME!  I recommend not reading the summaries.  Wait until you get A Game of Thrones to read it.



			
				iwatt said:
			
		

> I'll be getting AFfC in the mail sometime next week (damn slow shipping to South America    ), and I don't think I'll have tuime to reread the previous books. Any ideas were I can find some good summaries?
> 
> Thanx


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## Harmon (Nov 20, 2005)

God I love Arya Stark    

No one has ever tried to eat my worm before.

She is one of the truly great characters.


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## Dagger75 (Nov 20, 2005)

Harmon said:
			
		

> God I love Arya Stark
> 
> No one has ever tried to eat my worm before.
> 
> She is one of the truly great characters.




Mine too.  Except round these parts everybody hates her.  Don't know why.


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## Furtive Noise (Nov 20, 2005)

Whew.. just finished it.  Great to get sucked into one of these books again, though keeping track of all the different lords of Riverrun and the Vale gets a little tedious at times.  True that its not as strong as the other books in the series but I think it was still great.

      I think people may come at the series from a few different angles.. if what you like is rooting for the Starks and seeing how they will survive and ultimately take revenge then this book may not satisfy you all that much.  I love the politicking and different factions manouvering so I still got a lot out of this one (though I did miss Tyrion).  Glad Cersei wasn't made to be a more sympathetic person, not that that would have been likely... I can understand people getting sick of her chapters but no one else had the view of events in Kings Landing like she did, and to an extent the story is just as much about the Lannisters as the Starks.  It was nice to see Sam grow up a bit, didn't think they needed more of him than they showed.  I was surprised we didn't get just one more Arya chapter, what kinda crazy blind ninja/assasin training comes next?  For me the saddest point in the book (as in tragic, not badly thought out or something) was seeing Dondarrion's band of robin hood like men turn into desperate vigilante types.  Anyway.. gonna let it all sink in and hopefully find another book to get half as involved in while the wait starts for the next one.


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## Theron (Nov 21, 2005)

I finished it over the weekend.  Definitely the weakest of the series so far, but still head and shoulders above the vast majority of the fantasy field.

Re: the complaints about Cersei's screen time.  I knew she was going to be a POV character this time around and I feared that Martin would have me grudgingly caring for her by the end of the book, much as he did with Jaime's first POV book.  Looking back, I think he was playing on that expectation with every intention of making us like her even less.  He did need to show us how things were falling out in King's Landing, and more importantly, he had to show us that things were going to hell pretty much entirely through Cersei's actions.  If he'd done it from without, through the eyes of another party, it wouldn't hold as much impact.  If you think about it, we've had three volumes of POV from a tremendous schemer in Tyrion.  All along, we've gotten the feeling that Cersei was a conniving rhymes-with-witch, but one also got the idea that she did have a bit of an inkling of how the Game of Thrones was played.

In this volume,  we really see that any clout she had was entirely due to family and station.  She's the classic case of someone believing their own press and getting destroyed by it.  When she started hatching her plans to undo Margaery and kill Jon at the wall in one Rube Goldbergish swoop, I found myself laughing out loud at the sheer incompetence that would dream up such a notion.

In short, I didn't mind her having all that screen time.  I'm not sure who else you could have given it to.  She's a hateful little beast, but she's readable, and after the way all the competent people vacated King's Landing, who else could he elevate to POV character?


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## nakia (Nov 21, 2005)

I finished the book over the weekend as well and share much of the sentiment already expressed.  I also felt that the varrying points of view for the Iron Islands and Dorne were distracting; this was only added to by not naming the chapters after people and using epithets instead.  You know, I am not sure we needed all that Iron Island stuff anyway.  Just give us the Dragon Horn in a prologue and tell us the reavers are up and down the Mander in some other POV's.

Some more spoilers and questions below:

If Brienne/Pod are Dunk/Egg, does that mean Pod is a Targaryen?
I felt there was a lot more going on in the Brienne chapters than I was aware of, precisely because it felt so meandering and occasionally pointless.  I wonder what I missed.

Nice to see Sam grow up a bit, in more ways than one.  

Seems like the big mystery has moved to Oldtown.  What's going on there?  How will that impact Dany and the return of magic and the dragons?

What will happen to Loras?

When will we see the return of Gregor in undead-invincible form?  That will be scary.  Qyburn creeps me out.


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## Steel_Wind (Nov 21, 2005)

The Major Spoilers and Easter eggs from _AFFC_ are as follows:



Spoiler




 R+L=J : The evidence mounts with a few offhand references to the “wolf bitch” by Cersei.


 Sandor is alive:  The most likely explanation is that Sandor was rescued by a Septon or other brother or the Quiet Isle. Sandor is the grave digger whose face is not all seen but who is described as "bigger even than Brienne". He limps  - as Sandor did when Arya abandoned him due to his wound. Above all, "Dog" sniffs at him and licks him.

Lastly, Sandor’s warhorse, Stranger, is clearly described as the horse on the Quiet Isle.  The Hound is dead; but Sandor Clegane remains.

 The Alchemist who kills Pate in the prologue is described – to a T – as the same face that Jaqen H’Gar assumes when he transforms in front of Arya in a Clash of Kings.

At the end of the novel, Jaqen has now assumed the form of Pate and is in Marwyn’s chambers. What he is up to we do not know.

 Read closely and you will see that “Alleras the Sphinx” is androgynous in description. This is for good reason. Alleras spelled backwards reveals “his” true identity as Sarella of Dorne, the Viper’s daughter  - the only child of the Viper who was outside of Dorne and could not be found to be locked up.

 There is reason to believe that Loras is not as injured as we are lead to believe. The  injury to Loras is described to Cersei by Aurane Waters and he is vague on how badly burned Loras may be.  Otherwise, Loras took two crossbow bolts, to shoulder and thigh.

Cersei repeats Aurane’s tale to Margaery and Margaery cries. The same night Margaery is told of the injury, Lady Merryweather leaves Cersei’s bedchambers and says she spends it with Margaery to comfort her.  What they discuss or what Merryweather tells Margaery / is told by Margaery we do not know.

It is after Loras’ “injury” that we notice Pycelle is spending more time with the little Queen. It is also at about this time that Kevan Lannister vanishes.

Lady Merryweather is also the only person who is privy to Cersei’s plots concerning Margaery. Indeed - she is the source for all of Cersei's suspicions over Margaery's virginity and tells her tales of Renly and the marriage and Pycelle's visits.  But the same Merryweather refused to bring her son to foster with Tommen although invited repeatedly to do so.  “Someone tells. Someone always tells.”

It is Pycelle’s public confirmation that Margaery has asked for moon tea that prompts Cersei to expose herself by going to the High Septon and leaving her guards behind.  

After her arrest: 

The Merryweathers vanish. Pycelle takes over the small council, Aurane Waters puts the fleet to sea and Qyburne is deposed. Kevan Lannister is summoned to act as Regent.

Meanwhile, Cersei has placed herself in a position where she is to be put on trial.

In order to have Cersei fall at the trial, her champion must fail. The central point is that Loras – who would succeed against virtually any other champion  - as a King’s guard cannot refuse the Queen Mother’s request to act as her champion.  But Loras does not have to accept a request that is never made because he is “too injured” to be considered as a champion.


 There is a theory that the obsidian candles describe as “sharp as razors” and “slender as a sword” may not be candles at all but are the blades of ancient dragonglass swords. It may be that any one could qualify as “Lightbringer” as they burn, give off both heat and light but are not consumed.


 Another theory that the Horn found by Euron is not a horn of Dragon Control. It is a horn of Fire and is meant to oppose ICE – not control dragons. It may well be the horn meant to bring down the Wall. If so – Mance Rayder’s Horn of Winter (which is reportedly burned by Melisandre in AdwD) was something else entirely and after 8,000 years, critical mistakes are about to be made in confusing the purpose of ancient artifacts.


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## Theron (Nov 21, 2005)

Nice summary, Steel_Wind.  I'd caught a couple of those, a few others were "Oh yeah, duh," sorts of things and a couple I managed to miss altogether.


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## stevelabny (Nov 25, 2005)

I finally finished it after re-reading the first three (originally read in 2003).
I havent been to the ASOIAF boards yet, but just read ths thread and now I'm gonna throw my opinions in the ring.

Going in, I wasn't as fearful of the split-book as others as I am NOT a fan of Jon Snow at all. (See previous threads about him being 1> stupid 2> evil and 3> the bad guy.)
The main thing I love about the series is the multiple POVs that let you actually see things from all angles and was intrigued by what Cersei might bring to the table. 
My favorite characters in the series are the supporting cast. Sandor, Bronn, Asha, Loras, Littlefinger, Varys.  Arya was the Stark I was drawn to originally, but I look forward even more to Sansa's transformation.

Coming out of the book, I'm not thrilled.

The book felt like it had way more recapping of the current situation in every chapter than the prior books, especially the first chapter for each, presumably to catch up the people who didn't bother to reread the other books after such a long wait. 
Also, I thought there were way too many irrelevant history and heraldry lessons. 
While all of the previous flashbacks with Ned and Rhaegar bear relevance to the current story, I felt like many of this books sidetreks did not.

I think the book suffered from being split in half, because the Jaime chapters would wind up to close to either the Cersei or Brienne chapters and all three would wind up repetitive. 

But I think I know what I missed most from this book. The humor. Another fun part of the series is that GRRM gets that there is more than one kind of humor.  Dolourous Edd, Hodor, Tyrion and Bronn,  Shagga son of Dolf and more all provide different types of comic relief to the story. This book was missing ALL of the comic characters.

Now onto slightly more spoilery stuff. 

[sblock]

Book 3 left Sandor and Gregor on the brink of death.
They both "die" off-camera in book 4 never being seen again. 
Even before I read this thread, I was sure Sandor was alive and Franken-Gregor will rise again but it still came across as lame to give both off-camera deaths.
Throw in the possibility of Davos being dead, the contiinued lack of information on the fate of Theon (Asha offhandedly says he's dead, but doesn't provide any other information) , and then the brink of death endings for Brienne and Loras and its a bit much.
Can we go back to gruesome death scenes?

The absence of Sandor was extremely disappointing to me, made worse by the absence of Bronn. The constant teases to both characters without them actually appearing drove me crazy. Especially since I know that they won't be in the next book either.

I was hoping that either Varys or Jorah Mormont would show up somewhere in the book also, but no such luck.  Now the pieces are truly scattered all over the board. 

The revelation that Cersei was completely and utterly clueless was sort of an unexpected non-twist, but it felt like Catelyn and Eddard revisited. I do so prefer a character with brains.
Giving the morons too much page time is a real downer.

Brienne is a classic example of secondary character who should NOT be a focal point. She quickly proved to be disinteresting. Sticking her with Podrick and having her walk around in circles for a book (didn't Arya already do that?) didn't help matters any.

The Dorne chapters were interesting because Dorne has been such an enigma so far, and the Sand Snakes are almost as cool as the Red Vyper, but again, overall, not much happened.  

The Iron Isles chapters suffered from shortage of Asha-attention, and not enough forward movement. 

The Sam chapters were all one long boat-trip. fine, two boat trips.

Not much happened overall, which made the passage of time, or lack thereof,  in this book a real problem for me.  Since AFFC and its other half were supposed to cover the "5 year jump" , it really worries me that barely a year passes.  While Arya and Sansa are both learning, I feel they didn't progress nearly as far as I wanted them too. While Cersei got herself into a whole bunch of trouble, I really felt like that should have been part of the "plot" of the book and not the cliffhanger. And the Citadel prologue and epilogue was a totally pointless tease. (Although I missed the Sarella / Alleras thing, and I almost always catch that trick) 

My hope for the future remains simple. Any ending other than Jon and Dany live happily ever after.  I want to see Stark vs Stark even more than Lannister vs Lannister (but not quite as much as Clegane vs Clegane) 

[/sblock]


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## Eosin the Red (Nov 25, 2005)

I finished it .... It delivered to my expectations of depresion, in a good way.

Katelyn sucks and needs to die...again.
Littlefinger is such a bad, bad man.
Little Robert just needs to be strangled.

Poor Davos.

I smell a great big ole fishy story round Merryweather, Loras, Longwater, Kevan, Pycrelle, and maybe a few others. I wonder if Jaime is involved? Speaking of Jamie ~ he is fated to kill Cersei.... I wonder what she will do and how he will get to her? IRC he is younger than Cersie by minutes.

Arya... our little girl has gone and all growed up. Kinda ugly.

Sandor... Hope he has found some peace. Was it being left for death by a 10 year old she-wolf who refused to even grant him mercy that prompted him to find faith?

I am itching for all the cliff hangers lift in this book... Sam, Breinne, Cersei, Loras, and the mysteries of Old Town. The next book promises to be more filling for me (I like "those" characters better) but I can't see how he can wrap up the story in four more books. Not that I mind a long series but having them 5 years apart doth suckith.

I tried to figure out the riddle of the Sphinx but couldn't get it. I knew it was there but not how to solve it, too many characters bubbling in my head.

I give this one a 4.25 out of 5.0.... The last book got 4.90 and at least a solid portion of that was based of the horror of the Red Wedding. I am glad GRRM didn't live close to my house, I might have done something rash-er than throw the book into the backyard.


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## Ulrik (Nov 25, 2005)

Eosin the Red said:
			
		

> Little Robert just needs to be strangled.




I give Little Robert exactly 0% chance of surviving the next year. Everyone knows how sickly he is, and Littlefinger has set it up so that he will still have control of the Vale through Sansa and Harry. Even if his shaking sickness doesn't do him in, what's stopping LF from slipping a little something into his food? Who would suspect a thing?

(Or does LF prefer to rule through Robert?)


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## Eosin the Red (Nov 26, 2005)

Ulrik said:
			
		

> I give Little Robert exactly 0% chance of surviving the next year. Everyone knows how sickly he is, and Littlefinger has set it up so that he will still have control of the Vale through Sansa and Harry. Even if his shaking sickness doesn't do him in, what's stopping LF from slipping a little something into his food? Who would suspect a thing?
> 
> (Or does LF prefer to rule through Robert?)





He'll wait til Sansa and her new beau are "wedded & bedded." Then our snotty little tyrant is gonna learn to fly!


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## Steel_Wind (Nov 26, 2005)

Assuming Sansa decides that she is going to be a party to that. I am not so sure - not so sure of that at all.


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## Methinkus (Nov 27, 2005)

*Stannis vs Varys*

SPOILERS!!









Spoilers. . . . i guess only kinda . . .














Does anyone else think that in the next book the Spider is going to apear on the Wall?  Varys talks to Tyrion in one of the old books about how much he hates Magic, and says that if Stannis is using sorcery to acheive his ends Varys will do everything he can to kill him.  Since we havent seen him in Kings Landing in an entire book I think its very likely that he has decided to head north for the winter.

Given the story he told Tyrion about how and why he was castrated, I think we all understand why he hates magic so much.  Hearing just that one story about his past made the eunich one of my favourite characters - along with Rob and Kahl Drogo,    -  so watch out Red Witch, the Spider is a much more capable plotter that Stannis' old Maester!  If im right about this then it is going to be one great showdown!


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## Starman (Nov 27, 2005)

Methinkus said:
			
		

> Does anyone else think that in the next book the Spider is going to apear on the Wall?  Varys talks to Tyrion in one of the old books about how much he hates Magic, and says that if Stannis is using sorcery to acheive his ends Varys will do everything he can to kill him.  Since we havent seen him in Kings Landing in an entire book I think its very likely that he has decided to head north for the winter.
> 
> Given the story he told Tyrion about how and why he was castrated, I think we all understand why he hates magic so much.  Hearing just that one story about his past made the eunich one of my favourite characters - along with Rob and Kahl Drogo,    -  so watch out Red Witch, the Spider is a much more capable plotter that Stannis' old Maester!  If im right about this then it is going to be one great showdown!




I don't think Varys is done manipulating things in the south. If he's not in King's Landing or somewhere close, then he has probably gone to Daenerys to help her out. Remember that he is a Targaryen loyalist.


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## BastionLightbringer (Nov 28, 2005)

*Finished*

Well I finished today and have some observations and some questions.

I Liked it and enjoyed it, but it was a small disappointment. It feels like half a book, like not much really happened. I think whats most dissapointing is the next book takes place at the same time as this one, so none of this books cliff-hangers will be answered.

Another thing, I think Martin is becoming a little predictable.I think its always safe to assume the worst possible character will always win: 
Did anyone doubt that Euron would win the vote, or Littlefinger would sway the Lords Declarent, or Cersei would get her way (til the end)








Another problem I have that I think others mentioned:
We don't see anyone die in the book. Come on Sandor, Gregor, Beric, Loras, Davos. It ruins the suprise if he brings them back later, and leaves us wanting if he doesn't.






One question, Since I missed the whole Alleris thing; I dont understand how would Measter Aemon know about the sphinx?


BUt don't get me wrong, I love this series and will continue to read and wait. I gues I'll past the time with the GoT RPG i just picked up.

Bastion


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## CrusaderX (Nov 28, 2005)

I finished the book over the weekend as well.  I enjoyed it, and the pages did turn quickly, but not quite as much as the past three books.  I'm eagerly awaiting ADWD, though.

I did't catch the AFFC easter eggs mentioned in this thread.  They  make the book better, IMO, especially the identity of the alchemist.  I really shoud have realized who it was.

One question about the book, though, since I may have missed something:



Spoiler



Were all of the accusations against Margarey false?  They were simply made up to trap Cersei, right?


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## Steel_Wind (Nov 28, 2005)

*The accusations against Margaery and the Injuries to Sir Loras*



Spoiler



I believe they were made up to trap Cersei, yes. 

My theory is as follows:

Margaery was not acting when she was first told what happened to Loras. Aurane Waters tells Cersei the tale and smiles when Cersei insists on telling Margaery. _He smiles because they have her_. 

Margaery was told by Cersei and believed it - her initial reaction was genuine as were her tears.

Read the chapter again: that same night after Margaery is told by Cersei about what supposedly happened to Loras - Lady Merryweather leaves Cersei's bedchamber and goes to spend the evening with Margaery and her maid to "comfort them" instead. It is then that Lady Marryweather tells Margaery the truth to "comfort her" and bring Margaery into the Queen of Thorns' machinations.

Look back on all the information that Cersei is given regarding Margaery and her virginity, the Blue Singer, who she sees, etc. It all stems from information Lady Merryweayther gives Cersei. Cersei's "independent investigations" are all undertaken only after the seed is first planted by Taena. It is Lady Merryweather who remember's Renly's erection that wedding night, that Margaery is no virgin, etc.. Lady Merryweather also tells Cersei that Pycelle has been spending a great deal of time with Margaery as well - and Cersei walks right into it and asks Pycelle what - where he confesses: "I provide Her Grace with sleeping draghts and ... other sorts of potions." 

Pycelle was set up and the door is opened - and Cersei walks right into it. 

Later in open court after Margaery is arrested, Cersei asks Pycelle to go to Baelor's Sept to verify her virginity, instead of going herself to speak with the High Septon. Pycelle goes white and admits to the moon tea in open court.

That's all it takes - the council is dissolved and off Cersei marches. But as she does, Lord Merryweather and Aurane Waters immediately move to justify launching of the fleet. An accident? Come on! Read it again!

Cersei readily agrees. (And off Aurane Waters goes to get the fleet battle ready and cast off).

The next day, before Cersei goes to the High Septon, it is Lady Merryweather who asks about what happens if Margaery asks for a trial by combat. Taena is ready to suggest the answer to Cersei if our Golden Fool fails to see it - but Cersei takes the bait and off to the High Septon she goes. But before she goes she once again invites Lady Merryweather's son to court - and once again is declined.

GRRM is telling us - once more - that Taena is a traitor. 

Margaery plays her part and reminds Cersei that Loras is hurt. That done, Margaery tells the "vile, scheming, evil bitch" to leave. 

The High Septon does not confront Cersei with Osney Kettleblack until after Cersei has said that it must be a member of the King's Guard who must defend the Queen. When she says that - they have her. The next thing he says is that Cersei may not leave. 

The same timorous Pycelle who confessed to giving Margaery moon tea is shortly thereafter busy running the kingdom and calling for Kevan Lannister within an hour of Cersei's arrest by the High Septon. The fleet which was readied for battle by the comments of Lord Merryweather and Aurane Waters is off to sea and the defence of Highgarden. 

Cersei was played the entire time - and Loras' "injuries" are an integral part of it. Without Loras being injured, any trial by combat would go in Cersei's favor. They played her for a fool the entire time. Who is "they"? The Queen of Thorns and Littlefinger.

Why is Qyburn let in to see Cersei? So that she does not suspect the whole of the truth, else she might puzzle it out and recognize Loras is not injured - and see her one route of escape. So Qyburn tells Cersei what they want her to believe: that Aurane Waters has gone off to be a pirate or to Stannis (anywhere but Highgarden) and the Merryweathers - true friends of Cersei that they are - have now fled the city to avoid the wrath of Cersei's enemies ascendant.

Cersei, more the fool, thinks that Taena fleeing to Longtable is a sign of her loyalty and a stroke of good fortune. She sees what they want her to see and misses all the clues to the truth.

So, to recap: what's in it for the QoT?

1 - She must preserve Margaery from Cersei;
2- She must get rid of her without provoking the Lannisters or deposing Tommen.  This is vital because the urgent need is for the Royal Fleet to save Highgarden *right now* which stands exposed to the Ironborn.  All of this must be done in such a way as to avoid a war with the Lannisters.

In order to do this, she must use the High Septon - a man who cannot be bought.  To do this, she must risk Margaery (without really risking her).

And so Lady Taena Merryweather and the Kettleblacks (and through them, LF) play their game.

It's all about this: Get Cersei to say to the High Septon that the Queen must rely upon the Kingsguard to defend her against a charge and with the Blue Singer's tale - Cersei is damned. Osney Kettleblack sings a tale as well? So much the better, but the Blue Singer was the intended informant.  Osney Kettleblack was just a bonus. 

As long as Loras is "hurt", Cersei is deposed without risking war with the Lannisters.

*So what is in it for Littlefinger?*

As it turns out, what's in it for Petyr Baelish is nothing less than the Rule of the Seven Kingdoms.

It was Jaime's suggestion of settling on Baelish as the perfect Hand to appease the Tyrells that got me thinking...

"If Cersei can be put aside, Ser Kevan may agree to serve as Tommen's Hand. And if not, well, the Seven Kingdoms did not lack for able men. Forley Prester would make a good choice, or Roland Crakehall. If someone other than a westerman was needed to appease the Tyrells, there was always Mathis Rowan...or even Petyr Baelish. Littlefinger was as amiable as he was clever, but too lowborn to threaten any of the great lords, with no sword of his own. *The perfect Hand*." - Jaime Lannister, AFFC, page 667.

This leads me to believe it may have been the QoT & LF behind this. 

If LF thinks that the only thing that stands between him and the Rule of the Realm is Ser Kevan Lannister - we might have a very good idea what happened to Ser Kevan whilst travelling in the treacherous riverlands...

Ser Kevan's "vanishing" may well be the work of LF removing the one obstacle between him being named Hand of the King.


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## Eosin the Red (Nov 28, 2005)

I think Steel Wind has the gist of but I think the participants and provocateurs might be a little different. I also don't think that everything is quite that nice and tidy. 

The main problem I see with the tidines is that the High Septon is a total wild card right now. I think things are headed for something much uglier in the near future and that at the core of it we will find the Septon, his sparrows, and his new swords. Anybody who doesn't see what a dangerous man he has become is a moron and I doubt the QoT is a moron (nor is Jaime, Kevan, or Varys). The only moron who thinks they can keep the bottle corked is Cersei.

I think Kevan and Pycelle (and maybe Varys) are the two main instigators. Loras, Taena, Longwater, and Magery are just the pawns. 

Overall, it is still a good theory and it is obvious that SOMETHING is happening behind the scenes and that something involves Taena.


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## nakia (Nov 28, 2005)

Ulrik said:
			
		

> I give Little Robert exactly 0% chance of surviving the next year. Everyone knows how sickly he is, and Littlefinger has set it up so that he will still have control of the Vale through Sansa and Harry. Even if his shaking sickness doesn't do him in, what's stopping LF from slipping a little something into his food? Who would suspect a thing?
> 
> (Or does LF prefer to rule through Robert?)




More spoliers: 

I think the killing of Robert has already started.  IIRC, the Eyrie's Masester has been giving Robert some potion/medicine for the shaking sickness that is supposed to be used very sparingly, but Robert's been taking it fairly regularly.  Alayane/Sansa convinces the Maester to give him more of the stuff before they descend from the Eyrie.  The Maester agrees, but then says Robert can't have any more of the potion for at least six months.

I'm interested to see how things will play out now that the Church has been rearmed.  I'm also curious to learn what's up with the Citadel. Aemon's prophecy about the sphinx may refer to the Citadel itself, not specifically about Alleras. Now we have two new factions at play in Westeros.


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## The Serge (Nov 29, 2005)

Finally finished this today after picking it up on the 18th.  Superb, although I do agree with some of the issues folks have with it being only half a book.

A few things.

First, I actually like the fact that we have an opportunity to see things from Cercei's perspective.  Given the type of writing Martin has proven his adeptness with, handling multiple characters and revealing how stories shift based upon the character in question telling the story, it was time that we saw the world through her eyes.  He spent three novels making her seem like an utter witch (well, the "b" word is more appropriate)... Indeed, he did the same thing with Jaime in the first two novels.  However, by the third novel, we see Jaime in a new light and slowly develop some respect and even admiration for him (incest and callously throwing a child to his death aside).  Some may well have expected something similar with Cercei.  Rather, what we get with Cercei is a woman filled with a desire to prove herself, unable to recognize her own failings, paranoid of others, petty to the point of cruelty, and with strong love (or at least strong sense of ownership) for her children.  In some ways, she's the mirror of Catelyn Stark (who, aside from her hatred of Jon Snow, was a fairly decent character).  I think seeing her as a truly despicable person, but one with motivation to explain her nature, was a good thing.

I agree that it was unfortunate that we didn't see more of Sam and Arya.  I really like Arya and I was floored with the conclusion of her last chapter...  although not surprised.  I always liked Sam.  He's great.  The craven who's really not the craven.  I look forward to seeing where the story takes him (assuming he's not killed; no one's safe in Martin's novels).  I also like Brienne.  I was so ticked with what happened with her confrontation with Biter.  I hope that I'm wrong, but I fear she took on a new pledge with the Hangedwoman in order to save Podrick.  Brienne is the only decent knight in these stories and it's going to get her killed.

All in all, I loved it.  I would say that a fantasy novel, it's a 5 out of 5; however, as an inclusion into the cycle, a 3 out of 5 as it's clearly only one part of two.  I think Martin would have been better off publishing this once he had the second part finished so it could be released a month later.


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## Ulrik (Nov 29, 2005)

The Serge said:
			
		

> I hope that I'm wrong, but I fear she took on a new pledge with the Hangedwoman in order to save Podrick.  Brienne is the only decent knight in these stories and it's going to get her killed.




[sblock]_Going_ to get her killed? I didn't see much difference between the Brienne chapter and epilogue of a Storm of Swords (where Merric gets hanged). My bet is the word she screamed was "Jaime". She's toast.[/sblock]


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## Pants (Nov 29, 2005)

Finished it last night.

Although I agree that it wasn't up to _Storm of Swords_ quality, it was still good.

Some thoughts:



Spoiler



- Arya - Loved the few Arya chapters that we got. I was very surprised in how she just offhandedly killed Daereon (Sp?). I really wished that we got to see more of her as her chapters were the most enjoyable.

- Sam - I do like how his character has progressed, but I didn't really want anymore chapters to focus on him. Things only got really interesting for him when he finally reached Oldtown. I picked up on the Faceless Man/Jaquen H'gar thing right away. Made me feel proud too, until I read about all the other things that I completely missed 

Aemon dying, not much of a surprise. He was old and he was on his way out since the beginning of the book. Still sad to see him go, he was a great character.

- Brienne - I found her chapters strangely *empty*. Most of them were about her wandering around, seeing the effects of the war, though I felt that Arya's journey in CoK did a much better job. Though it was nice seeing her bring an end to some of the Rogue Bloody Mummers, I just felt that her chapters could have been better spent doing something else. I like her character, but I think that parts of her journey weren't important enough to warrant whole chapters, while other parts could have used a little more fleshing out.

I hope Pod and her survive, though the chances of that happening seem unlikely.

I was very saddened to see what has become of the Brotherhood Without Banners. Beric dead for good, an insane UnCatelyne leading them, and they've become little more than bandits and vigilantes. I wanted to see more of Beric and to have him die offscreen in such a way made it very unsatisfying. Especially since he died to bring the horrible UnCat back.

- Jaime - Enjoyable. His chapters were very enjoyable, especially his verbal sparring with Cersei, his gradual redemption (though it seems like he is aiming more for a Tywin-lite than an honorable knight now), and his last chapter(s). Freakin perfect. Edmure survives, Riverrun is taken bloodlessly, another Frey gets offed (further confusing matters of succession), the Blackfish gets away (and he got just the right amount of screen time when he met with Jaime), and Jaime finally cuts the last ties to his wretched sister.

- Cersei - Ah, Cersei, the Little Queen that Couldn't. Such a deplorable character, such a horrible schemer. She reaches waaaay too high and thinks so much of herself that when things finally come crashing, I said to myself "Yes!" Funny how she thinks she's playing everyone for fools, yet everyone is really playing her for one. I had my doubts about Taena from the beginning, way too convenient, the end proved what she was. 

- Iron Islands - I think that just enough was shown of the Iron Islands. We didn't need anymore and we got just enough to see what the situation was like between Victarion, Euron, Asha, and Aeron. Pretty enjoyable.

- Dorne - Some of these chapters could have been cut down, though I feel that they were integral to the plot. Dorne throwing its support to Dany was surprising and showed that Doran had some bite, even though he had practically no bark. I'm looking forward to seeing what the repurcussions of Arys's death and Myrcella's maiming will have. With Cersei contained, I have a feeling that it won't be a stupidly bloody affair, but Kevan remains an enigma. He may not take action. He knows about Cersei and her spawn, he may want to get rid of them. Who knows.


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## nakia (Nov 29, 2005)

*Brienne's Word*

The word Brienne says at the end of her last chapter is key to what will happen to her:

Spoilers:
The going theory (one that I think has merit) is that Brienne says "sword".  She was offered a choice by Undead Caitlyn -- take up the sword and go kill Jamie (breaking her oath to Jamie), or get the rope.  She refuses to make that choice, so gets hung.  While watching Pod die, she realizes that her honor isn't worth more than Pod's life, so she says the one word that will get them set free.

This is an interesting arc for her, since she chastised Jamie so much in aSoS for having no honor and now she gives up her honor to save Pod (and has to go after Jamie in the process). It also sets up another confrontation between Jamie and Brienne somewhere down the road.

This is also further proof that, even undead, Caitlyn sucks.

People with an overdeveloped sense of honor don't do well in this series.  Just ask Ned Stark.


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## Pants (Nov 29, 2005)

nakia said:
			
		

> The word Brienne says at the end of her last chapter is key to what will happen to her:
> 
> Spoilers:
> This is also further proof that, even undead, Caitlyn sucks.





Spoiler



She's turned into Lysa!


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## Steel_Wind (Nov 29, 2005)

*Regarding Brienne*



Spoiler



The other possibility is that Brienne yells "Arya" in an attempt to persuade Catelyn that she is worth letting live.

But, I expect that Brienne will yell "sword" and will swear to hunt down Jaime to Stoneheart.

I do not, however, expect that Brienne will keep that vow. I believe she is in love with Jaime and will not  - in the end -be able to do it.

The question of whether she will keep that oath or not will be the real point of the rest of Brienne's tale in the story.  GRRM will have his opportunity to show us that there are a few oaths a true knight must not keep and are best broken. 

Jaime broke his oath to Aerys and, strangely, did the right thing by doing so; so it will be with Brienne as well.  But the path is never easy and the fallout never simple.


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## nakia (Nov 29, 2005)

*Brienne's Word*

I'm not too fond of the "Arya" theory, b/c Brienne doesn't really know much about Arya anyway.  Plus, the Jamie/Brienne love and conflict just needs to be played out more, which happens with "sword" and not with "Arya".

BTW, I enjoy your posts on the SoIaF boards, Steel Wind.  I'm a big lurker there.


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## Klaus (Nov 27, 2006)

Just finished the book (read it in about a week).

Y'know, I think I'd rather have the book GRRM described in his epilogue, telling half the story for all the characters. This book had waaaaaaaaaaaa(...)aaaaaaaaay too much decompression, throwing names just for the sake of doing so (kinda like Tolkien with the songs and describing the landscape). By the final third of it, I was skipping entire paragraphs to get back to the action.

And Cersei thinks the younger, fairer queen was Margaery, oblivious to the existence of Daenerys...

I think Brienne will uphold her first oath to serve Catelyn (whom I didn't hate when alive, but Mummy-Catelyn is grating). I also think that if Franken-Gregor roll sout, Sandor will join the Warrior's Sons and both will perish in each other's arms.

But the series is beginning to tire me a bit. I Wish GRRM would start converging the storylines to turn next book into a race-to-the-dragons and to wrap it all up in a sixth book.

Allayne's chapters were made worth it just from Petyr's explanation of his plan. Two paragraphs and you see the man is a political genius.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Nov 27, 2006)

Klaus said:
			
		

> Just finished the book (read it in about a week).
> 
> Y'know, I think I'd rather have the book GRRM described in his epilogue, telling half the story for all the characters. This book had waaaaaaaaaaaa(...)aaaaaaaaay too much decompression, throwing names just for the sake of doing so (kinda like Tolkien with the songs and describing the landscape). By the final third of it, I was skipping entire paragraphs to get back to the action.




Agreed.  Still waiting on the other half of the book, which was supposedly done last year and coming out this year.


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## Fast Learner (Nov 27, 2006)

It wasn't done last year. It's not even done now, nor is it likely to be. http://www.georgerrmartin.com/if-update.html


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## Celtavian (Dec 7, 2006)

*fe*



			
				Justin said:
			
		

> I appreciate your enthusiasm, but could you elaborate, much as BastionLightbringer did a couple of posts ago, on what about the series that you like so much?
> 
> One thing I realized, however, is that I had the same problem with Peter Hamilton's "Night's Dawn" series.  Talk about sex and violence!  I liked a lot of the characters and concepts in the first two books (one book for those outside the US), but the extreme, graphic nature was a severe turn off.




If you don't like sex and violence, then you won't like these books. I don't mind visceral sex and violence in the books I read as long as they are good. And this is a good book. 

It has an engaging plot and a great deal of verisimilitude in world development. The larger story arc involves dragons and demons from beyond the wall. This story arc has not yet fully played out and we really only know bits and pieces about what is going on.

The initial story arc was a succession war. It was very interesting to see all the players attempting to usurp the throne play the "Game of Thrones". Martin kept you in the dark about who was going to win and didn't ever reveal his hand until it was all said and done. 

Martin really keeps the plot engaging. You really want to know what happens next and how it will happen.

It isn't a perfect book. Some of the sex is gratuitous and unncessary, but I'm sure it appeals to some of the audience whereas a reader like myself could care less if it was there or not. Some of the situations the characters are put in are contrived and concluded in an artificial manner. But overall it is a very good series of books with an engaging plot and engaging characters.

All in all, if you don't enjoy sex and violence in the books that you read, then you should not read this series. It didn't lessen at all in a _Feast for Crows_, it in fact increased. But that doesn't make it a bad book, it is in fact a very well written series of books and I enjoyed them all immensely.


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## Endur (Dec 11, 2006)

*2008*

2008 is my prediction for the next book.


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## Steel_Wind (Dec 11, 2006)

I expect November 2007 for a release date, such that he'll be finished the manuscript in April/May or so.

The big concern is how long for the next final two novels after that? I expect a three year wait at least for book six.

Martin writes slowly, is enjoying his success and goes to too many conventions. It clearly detracts from his focus.  His becoming quite wealthy from the success of a Song of Ice and Fire does not assist in maintaining his focus either.

Ah well. Can't begrudge a man his well earned comforts. Just wish he was writing faster...


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## Fast Learner (Dec 11, 2006)

I predict a similar Fall 2007 publish date, in time for Christmas purchases.

And I agree about George being led by other things, and also don't begrudge him that one bit. I'm a fair bit younger than him, so as long as he finishes them before he dies, I'm probably good.


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## delericho (Dec 11, 2006)

I finished it at the weekend, and thoroughly enjoyed it. I actually found the Jaime and Cersei chapters to be my favourites, which was a bit of a surprise. Still, it really suffered for the lack of Tyrion and Jon Snow - you can't cut out my favourite characters without losing something 

I think I would have preferred the book he described in his afterword - half the story for all the characters - or, better yet, just a longer wait for the complete volume. Then again, in hindsight, I think I would have preferred to wait for the whole series to be out before starting, as these delays are really killing my ability to follow the story.


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## IcedEarth81 (Dec 11, 2006)

Didn't Littlefinger tell Sansa at one point that he thought it would take Cersei longer to pull herself down so he had to speed up his plans? I got the feeling he wanted a longer time to get other plans going before getting rid of Cersei. How much of Cersei's fall was Littlfinger actually behind.

I also thought that was a clever little nod to the original 5 year plan.


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## RaceBannon42 (Dec 11, 2006)

George certainly has more interests than just pounding out his books. He also wants to write the best book he can, so yeah if he's not feeling his muse, he's not going to just grind through it. As for going to too many cons... I like that about him. He's accessable to his fans. He's a great guy to sit down with and have a drink and shoot the breeze. I'd much rather see that than someone who seems to view their fans with disdain, and we know there are those authors out there. ADwD will be finished eventually, and I'll be trilled when it comes out whenever it is.


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## Brogarn (Dec 14, 2006)

Finished this yesterday. I'm torn between never wanting to read another book in this series and being completely anxious for the next installment. I found myself annoyed at the way he throws some characters away and how much time I spend reading about characters who's entire existence is pointless and they end up dying. I'm so tired of finding a character I can really root for just to watch them croak in the most unfair way or worse, as a one sentence blow off. I also don't need the entire genealogical tree of every minor character introduced. There's far too much for me to try to remember as it is. But the good stuff in the books, the plots, intrigues and waking up of magic in the world, just keep me wanting more.

I hate them and love them all at once.


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## Alaric_Prympax (Dec 14, 2006)

Brogarn said:
			
		

> I'm so tired of finding a character I can really root for just to watch them croak in the most unfair way or worse, as a one sentence blow off.




Unless you actually see the body 'on screen' don't believe they're dead.  But then again even if they do die sometimes they come back like UnCat (though I belong to the camp that wishs she'd have stayed dead).  

If the character you are talking about is the one I'm thinking of we'll know more what happens in the next book (I don't believe that character is dead).


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## Black Omega (Dec 15, 2006)

I finished the book not long ago and did really enjoy it.  UnCat's annoying and I have little use for her.  Sam really is a coward except for the rare moments his emotions overwhelm him, but his story is interesting and there is some small hope he might develop into something more.  I like how Jamie is developing because he knows no matter what he does he'll never be seen as a great honorable knight.  But he keeps on doing his best to do the right thing, even knowing it will be twisted to make him look like an honorless cur.

The progression of the series is interesting for me.  At the start of Game of Thrones we have a sort of golden age.  Noble lords, ruthless but efficient bad guys, a black knight, a white knight, vile but larger than life killers, ect.  Now most of those people are dead or hopelessly scarred and crippled. Including some of the kids. Jaime Lannister has become a better person.  Aside from him, the entire realm has gotten worse.  It's like going into the dark ages before the real return of dragons to the island.


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