# Dundjinni Demo Review



## Cerubus Dark (May 16, 2004)

Well after downloading the 15.9 megs of files that are required for the program, I can say I am not impressed with the Dundjinni Demo.

Downloading the demo is simple enough, you need both files accourding to the web site.  One is the Dundjinni Demo Setup file and the other is Sun's Java Run-Time Environment.  Seems simple enough or you could grab both at once and plop it on a CD.  After running the Dundjinni Demo Setup program (this auto starts Sun's Java Run-Time Enviroment setup), you would think you are done, but wait there is more!

After installation Windows didn't see that there was a new program installed, infact there was no program installed.  The Demo "installed" a .jar file with no way to open it.  Clicking on the icon for the Dundjinni Demo opens the .jar file.  Was it worth the 15.9 megs of space on my Hard drive?  In a word, No.  They need to fix this error before I would even concider to try a full version of the software at anywhere from 34.00 to a whopping 69.95 for a product that may not even install correctly.  I will stick to using Fractal Mapper 7.0 thank you.

There also seems to be no support for the demo, they don't even mention the error then again, they only have an older version of the manual avalible to view.


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## dpmcalister (May 16, 2004)

I've just downloaded the single file (I've already got the Java Run-Time Environment installed) and it worked first time. I would suggest that your problems are associated with a corrupt download. Have you tried e-mailing Fluid to sort the problem out before slagging the program the way you have?


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## Cerubus Dark (May 16, 2004)

dpmcalister said:
			
		

> I've just downloaded the single file (I've already got the Java Run-Time Environment installed) and it worked first time. I would suggest that your problems are associated with a corrupt download. Have you tried e-mailing Fluid to sort the problem out before slagging the program the way you have?



Downloading the single file or the two files should not matter on the end result of the program's instalation.


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## dpmcalister (May 16, 2004)

True, but posting your complaints here (pretending to be a review) rather than posting on Fluid's boards and asking for assistance is out of order (IMHO). After all, it could just be a corrupt download. Have you tried downloading it again? Has the JAVA aspect installed OK? If so, then try the single file.

Remember, it could just be your computer...


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## Cerubus Dark (May 16, 2004)

dpmcalister said:
			
		

> True, but posting your complaints here (pretending to be a review) rather than posting on Fluid's boards and asking for assistance is out of order (IMHO). After all, it could just be a corrupt download. Have you tried downloading it again? Has the JAVA aspect installed OK? If so, then try the single file.
> 
> Remember, it could just be your computer...



I doubt its my computer.

I have tried *BOTH* installs and they are the same bloody thing.


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## dpmcalister (May 16, 2004)

Like I said, it works fine on my PC so I doubt its the program... likewise, if it was the program, wouldn't more people have complained?


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## tmaaas (May 16, 2004)

I had absolutely no trouble with the install on the first try.

A couple of points...

*It's a pre-release demo and not a demo of the finished product (though close). Fluid released it to help stomp out bugs. As these things go, I think it was jolly good; I've seen a lot worse from other companies. 

If you do have a problem, posting it in the "bugs" section of the Fluid boards would be productive. 

*I've heard of very few issues with the install and I'm fairly active on the Fluid boards, so I think you may be an unusual case.


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## tmaaas (May 16, 2004)

Just popped over to the Dundjinni forums and noticed you had posted your install issue there.

Good show, Cerebus!

I'll be very interested to see how promptly they help you. Please let us know what happens.


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## Cerubus Dark (May 17, 2004)

tmaaas said:
			
		

> Just popped over to the Dundjinni forums and noticed you had posted your install issue there.
> 
> Good show, Cerebus!
> 
> I'll be very interested to see how promptly they help you. Please let us know what happens.



Well if this isnot a final version I may give them another shot, the pics I have seen of finished maps made me drool, they look a lot better than CC2!


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## tmaaas (May 17, 2004)

Well, if they can help you with the install issue then you'll be able to try it out for yourself.

No, it's not the final version, but it is close. I just wouldn't expect it to be totally bug free.

Actually, I wouldn't expect the final version to be totally bug free either. It's a nice ideal, but I really don't see any software anymore that is perfect upon initial release.

However, I expect a lot more than we got with etools. But again, only the final release will truly show if Fluid can pull it off.


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## Mynex (May 17, 2004)

Cerubus Dark said:
			
		

> After installation Windows didn't see that there was a new program installed, infact there was no program installed.  The Demo "installed" a .jar file with no way to open it.




This is a 'Windows problem'.  The java installation sometimes omits one very important detail... to include the /lib path of the java install with 'Path' of the enviornment variables... 

Which means this: Without that set correctly, ANY .jar file you attempt to click on will open up like a zip file (which is how Windows treats .jar files usually)...

With the path to the '/lib' directory set in your enviornment variables, standard double clicking will open the program as it's supposed to be.

Without this set you have to type a really long line something like this;
DOS PROMPT: >path to where the java install /lib is< -java >jar name<.jar

Moral of the story: Set your enviornment variables! 

(and I agree, this isn't a review so much as 'cripes how do I' post... but hey, get it working then come back and post a review... I'm curious how other people see this product than I do. )


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## Ranger REG (May 17, 2004)

Do you actually mean I have to configure/install a lot of different stuff with WinXP before I can install the program?

 :\


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## kingpaul (May 17, 2004)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> Do you actually mean I have to configure/install a lot of different stuff with WinXP before I can install the program?
> 
> :\



I didn't have to.  I installed the program and was able to start toying with it immediately.  Haven't done much with it yet mind you.


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## herald (May 17, 2004)

error


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## herald (May 17, 2004)

Computer Malfunction on my part. Didn't mean to post.


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## jodyjohnson (May 17, 2004)

I had a similar issue.

Double clicked on the Icon and it didn't know which program to use.  I don't think Java came up in the original menu so I browsed to it and then opened it with Java.

Worked fine after that.

I had 2 versions of Java installed - the one with Dundjinni and an older version.  That may have been the problem for me, but I don't see it anymore after setting the jar file to open with the newer version of Java.


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## Ranger REG (May 17, 2004)

kingpaul said:
			
		

> I didn't have to.  I installed the program and was able to start toying with it immediately.  Haven't done much with it yet mind you.



Perhaps you should give it a run-through.

I just want to know if the program can run on Microsoft Virtual Java Machine. If not, will it install its own Java Run-Time Environment if the setup does not detect one in my system's hard drive?


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## NeghVar (May 18, 2004)

It may not be a MS Windows issue at all - File Compression Utilities (like WinZip) sometimes take over ownership of .jar files.

Generally installing/reinstalling the Java runtime client resolves this issue.

Not always...sometimes you need to go into Windows Explorer, click on Tools. Folder Options, then select the File Types tab. Scroll down throught the list and make certain that jar files are associated with the Sun Java client.

Please keep in mind what I just described is a worse case scenario.

Hope this helps!


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## kingpaul (May 18, 2004)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> I just want to know if the program can run on Microsoft Virtual Java Machine. If not, will it install its own Java Run-Time Environment if the setup does not detect one in my system's hard drive?



I don't know what version of MS VM I have, but I do have 1.4.2_03-b02 of Sun's java.


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## argon_the_red (May 18, 2004)

*Dundjinni requirements*



			
				Ranger REG said:
			
		

> Do you actually mean I have to configure/install a lot of different stuff with WinXP before I can install the program?




Dundjinni requires Sun's Java Run-Time Environment (JRE) version 1.4.2 or later in order to run.  (The MS one will NOT work.)  The JRE is freely available from Sun and also on the Dundjinni web site.  To reiterate what has been posted both here and on the Dundjinni boards, you need to have .jar files associated with Java, the Java environment variables need to be set, and you if you have multiple version of Java installed you need to be using one that is compatible.  Not to worry, however, because a default install of the current JRE will set everything correctly so you should not have to worry about it.  Install the JRE then install Dundjinni and everything should work.

That said there are a few things to look out for.  Some programs like to "steal" the file association for .jar files, particularly file compression utilities.  An old JRE will not work.  A MS JRE will not work.  The Java browser plug-in is not the same as the JRE, (though the latter installs the former I believe).  JavaScript is not the same as Java.

This thread is continuing on the Dundjinni forums here:
http://www.dundjinni.com/forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=232


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## Ranger REG (May 19, 2004)

Perhaps before they release the software, they will configure the setup program to install the necessary components, including the JRE, as a convenience. I don't like the idea of just popping in the CD, only to have a dialog popup box telling me to go to a web site and download/install JRE.

Like with most PC games, I should be able to pop in the CD/DVD-ROM and setup will do the rest so I can start playing right after the install.

I gotta tell you, I'm still not excited for the _Dundjinni_ program.


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## TheAuldGrump (May 19, 2004)

I had a similar problem for a while - in my case I updated Power Archiver, and though I checked 'Do not assosciate with all files' box it went and did so anyway. 9Power Archiver is a _very_ good program, just a bit... grabby.) So in my case it went from working fine to not working because I updated a completely different program.

Make sure your zip/ archive program is _not_ assosciated with .jar files, and that Java _is_.

The Auld Grump


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## Cerubus Dark (May 19, 2004)

Well even after doing everything they recommend I still was not able to get the program working.  We tried for three days to get it to work.

*sigh*  I won't be able to make the pretty maps I guess..


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## Mercule (May 19, 2004)

I wouldn't worry about it CD.  I had no problems getting the install done, and still didn't find it worthwhile.

I had a half-done crypt map that I figured would be a good test and something that I'd like to have look nice.  A real win-win.

After yutzing with the thing for an our, I uninstalled and went back to pencil and paper.  This thing makes my 5-year-old Campaign Cartographer (that I've spent only, like, 15 hours using) lot quick and easy.  Blech!


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## argon_the_red (May 19, 2004)

Mercule said:
			
		

> After yutzing with the thing for an our, I uninstalled and went back to pencil and paper.  This thing makes my 5-year-old Campaign Cartographer (that I've spent only, like, 15 hours using) lot quick and easy.  Blech!




Here's what I could make in about an hour:
http://www.dundjinni.com/downloads/dotw.asp?name=Small Stronghold


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## tmaaas (May 20, 2004)

argon_the_red said:
			
		

> Here's what I could make in about an hour:
> http://www.dundjinni.com/downloads/dotw.asp?name=Small Stronghold




Was that map yours?

Yes, with a little practice (i.e. once you are familiar with the program) you should be able to make very nice maps with little effort.

For those who didn't see my response to Mercule in the other thread, it seems Mercule tried out the demo without also downloading the documetation and had some trouble. After and hour, he/she gave up.

When I first tried out the demo, I fooled with it for an hour or two without documetation and didn't have too much trouble, but obviously Mercule's experience was different.

I then downloaded the instructions and they did give some helpful advice. I learned even more from the Dundjinni boards.

I really don't think the usability issue will be there for the full version with the on-line help.


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## argon_the_red (May 20, 2004)

tmaaas said:
			
		

> Was that map yours?




I did the Stronghold, Scott did the Temple, and Mike did the Campaign preview.

Dundjinni is EASY to use.  As the demo is a little outdated you won't be able to see the full extent of it.  For instance the snap-to-grid behavior (now changed) is counter-intuitive in the current demo.  Creating dungeons is easy.  Creating believable outdoor areas in even easier.  Stop by the Dundjinni booth at Origins and I will make you an expert in 15 minutes.


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## Mac V (May 20, 2004)

*Dundjinni*

First off, I installed Dunjinni on 2 computers and haven't had ANY trouble. Second off, I have found this program incredibly easy to use and very flexable. I can't make heads or tails of CC2, but I've made some cool maps in like 20 minutes with this program. On top of all that, I find the art equal to anything you would find in a Dungeon magazine. My only gripe is I don't own it yet. If anyone is thinking of buying this, download the demo and give it a whirl. With a little patience I think you'll be very satisfied.


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## Henry (May 20, 2004)

For those who have used this program:

Is there any existing program you know of that you could liken Dundjinni to? For instance, Campaign Cartographer is based on a CAD package. Is Dundjinni designed to be similar to, say a CAD package, or Adobe Illustrator, or Corel Draw? Or is it totally different?


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## tmaaas (May 20, 2004)

Henry said:
			
		

> For those who have used this program:
> 
> Is there any existing program you know of that you could liken Dundjinni to? For instance, Campaign Cartographer is based on a CAD package. Is Dundjinni designed to be similar to, say a CAD package, or Adobe Illustrator, or Corel Draw? Or is it totally different?




The best program to compare Dundjinni to is Photoshop. Of course, Dundjinni is not near as expensive, flexible, or powerful... but, for creating RPG maps (which it is designed for) it is easier and better for the average person.

Your primary tools include a room marquee which creates outlines of rooms, a fill tool, and a stamp tool.

To use the marquee, you create an outline of a room in the shape you want. You can do various squares/rectangles/polygons, circles/ovals, lines, freehand, etc. You can also combine shapes to make almost anything you want (this takes a bit of practice, though).

The border of the marquee is your "wall" and can be set to any desired thickness. Once you're done with the marqee, you "fill" the wall with a wall texture and then "fill" the floor with a floor texture. (You can use anything for the textures; for instance, you can use a floor graphic to fill a wall.)

Then you use the stamp tool to place various objects: doors, room dressings, critter tokens, etc.

All in all, very easy (except that doors are a bit of a pain; they could have done this better).

As argon_the_red posted, outdoors is even easier. This is primarily due to a nice feature when stamping trees and similar items. Dundjinni has several different versions of a pine tree, for instance. When you stamp down, it auto-rotates through the different images so you get a "natural" look. It may be a simple concept, but it's really slick. I was impressed the first time I used it.

Besides that, you have some standard object manipulation and draw tools; predifined "layers" for floors, walls, and objects; some nice shadow and bevel filters; and other niceties.

I haven't tried out the adventure creation functionality, so I can't comment on that.

Relative to Campaign Cartographer and Adobe Illustrator, both of these programs are vector based. Dundjinni (and Photoshop) are pixel-based. Both have their advantages, so it depends on your needs. 

In general, however, I think you'll get much nicer looking maps out of Dundjinni than a vector-based program (this is also why maps for Dungeon magazine, etc. are usually done in Photoshop instead of a CAD program).


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## tmaaas (May 21, 2004)

Heads up, everyone!

Looks like Fluid is paying attention to us.

They will be releasing a new demo aimed to alleviate both Cerebus and Mercule's (other thread) issues.

Cerebus, perhaps after the new demo comes out you'll be willing to give it another try. If it works for you...

In particular, the new demo will have a new installer which should solve some of the Java issues, it will contain some enhanced functionality (changes since the last demo), and they will be putting a documentation link on their download page.

After this demo comes out, I play with it some more and give a more "formal" review.


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## Ranger REG (May 21, 2004)

What is the PC system's minimum (and recommended) requirement to operate _Dundjinni_ (retail version) fully?


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## tmaaas (May 21, 2004)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> What is the PC system's minimum (and recommended) requirement to operate _Dundjinni_ (retail version) fully?




*From Fluid's online store:*

System Requirements
Windows 98 or later
800 MHz Pentium 3 or better
256 MB RAM or more
75 MB hard disk space (approx.) [Silver or Gold edition]
110 MB hard disk space (approximate) [Platinum edition]


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## Hand of Evil (May 21, 2004)

tmaaas said:
			
		

> *From Fluid's online store:*
> 
> System Requirements
> Windows 98 or later
> ...




There is also the JAVA requirement.


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## Cerubus Dark (May 21, 2004)

tmaaas said:
			
		

> Cerebus, perhaps after the new demo comes out you'll be willing to give it another try. If it works for you...



After the new demo comes out I am more than willing to try again.  It was so annoying to try to set the program up.  I did everything they said to do, but it still refused to open.

**Awaiting new Demo**


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## Ranger REG (May 21, 2004)

tmaaas said:
			
		

> *From Fluid's online store:*
> 
> System Requirements
> Windows 98 or later
> ...



Okay. My PC is qualified, although I may have to replace the motherboard if I want to get more RAM (currently using old RIMM modules).




			
				tmaaas said:
			
		

> 75 MB hard disk space (approx.) [Silver or Gold edition]
> 110 MB hard disk space (approximate) [Platinum edition]



Okay, so what's the difference between all three editions, in terms of features and price? And will the Platinum work on my PC set up as above, without any problem of slowing down?


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## Ranger REG (May 21, 2004)

Hand of Evil said:
			
		

> There is also the JAVA requirement.



* groans *  :\ 

If Fluid can install that as well as the main program in one convenient setup, then I'll be pleased. As I said before, I'd like to be able to put the CD-ROM into my drive, let the setup program install all the components, and let me start designing.


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## tmaaas (May 22, 2004)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> Okay, so what's the difference between all three editions, in terms of features and price? And will the Platinum work on my PC set up as above, without any problem of slowing down?




A comparison of all three versions is here.

Prices are in their store.

Silver: you get the mapping program & basic art (dungeon and wild).

Gold: Adds adventure creation functionality, stats for monsters from the SRD, Monsternomicon, & Book of Fiends, and Reaper miniature character tokens.

Platinum: Adds three more art packs (castles, temple, village), stats from Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed & Eldritch Might books, and Reaper miniature monsters.

The Platinum version costs about the same as the Silver and the three art packs sold separately. So if you want the art, you might as well go Platinum.

I am


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## TheAuldGrump (May 22, 2004)

Henry said:
			
		

> For those who have used this program:
> 
> Is there any existing program you know of that you could liken Dundjinni to? For instance, Campaign Cartographer is based on a CAD package. Is Dundjinni designed to be similar to, say a CAD package, or Adobe Illustrator, or Corel Draw? Or is it totally different?




The closest that I can think of is Map X, though mind you Map X is still an Alpha.

I generally prefer Dungeoncrafter, but some of that is likely accountable to familiarity. (Plus I like the scale of the maps in Dungeoncrafter better.)

The Auld Grump


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## Ranger REG (May 22, 2004)

tmaaas said:
			
		

> A comparison of all three versions is here.
> 
> Prices are in their store.
> 
> ...



Is there an Electrum edition? No offense, but I don't think I may need _Arcana Unearthed_ and Reaper Miniatures extras.


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## Ayrk (May 24, 2004)

One thing that I was disappointed about was that if you want to publish your maps in a for sale product, you either have to come up with your own art tiles (i.e., you can't use all of the existing tiles) or pay Fluid some unknown license fee.

I have a book in the works that I was going to use Dundjinni for the maps, but since my margins don't allow for an additional license fee I guess I'll continue to use CC2 which isn't as pretty but is certainly acceptable and has no additional costs.


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## BryonD (May 24, 2004)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> Is there an Electrum edition? No offense, but I don't think I may need _Arcana Unearthed_ and Reaper Miniatures extras.




Agreed.

This product looks interesting to me.  But at $70 to get everything I would need, it just isn't really even a consideration.

Add in that I do not see a single item on the gold edition list that would interest me.  What does any of that stuff have to do with making maps?

Any chance you could offer a "map-maker's" kit with JUST the map stuff (silver + art packs)?  I'd consider paying around $50 for that.
But $35 for not everything I would need is a no sale and $70 for everything I need plus some completely tangent stuff thrown in is also a no sale.


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## Fargoth (May 24, 2004)

Ayrk said:
			
		

> One thing that I was disappointed about was that if you want to publish your maps in a for sale product, you either have to come up with your own art tiles (i.e., you can't use all of the existing tiles) or pay Fluid some unknown license fee.
> 
> I have a book in the works that I was going to use Dundjinni for the maps, but since my margins don't allow for an additional license fee I guess I'll continue to use CC2 which isn't as pretty but is certainly acceptable and has no additional costs.





This is one of the many reasons I'll be sticking with the ProFantasy Suite of products that I own. One of the main types of maps that I create are large-scale kingdom/continental maps. From what I can tell, Dundjinni focuses on the close-up maps for adventure encounters. CC2's CAD engine is extremely powerful. I'll admit it takes time to learn it but in the long run the tools that CC2 provides are far more numerous then Dundjinni. With limited post-production work in PSP or PS you can achieve the same results that Dundjinni can ... you just need to know the nuances and abilities of the products at your disposal.

I understand that many, in fact most people, don't want to spend a lot of time cranking out maps. I suppose I'm in the minority there. I produce maps for others and the customizable tools available in CC2 and Photoshop put anything else to shame. No matter what a client asks for I can meet their needs with CC2 and PS ... not too sure Dundjinni can do that yet. I'd be limited to the art packs.

As was mentioned in the quote above, even if it could I would have to either purchase a special license or create my own art packs ... both of which are something I'm not willing to do as a cartographer who has other, better (IMHO) tools at my disposal.

Dundjinni is great to create quick maps. That's what I believe it's targets towards. For the serious cartographer, there are better tools available.


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## Ranger REG (May 25, 2004)

Fargoth said:
			
		

> Dundjinni is great to create quick maps. That's what I believe it's targets towards. For the serious cartographer, there are better tools available.



Yeah, but they required formal training. BTW, does CompUSA offer a certified training class for _CC2 Pro_?


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## prcrash (May 25, 2004)

Ayrk said:
			
		

> One thing that I was disappointed about was that if you want to publish your maps in a for sale product, you either have to come up with your own art tiles (i.e., you can't use all of the existing tiles) or pay Fluid some unknown license fee.
> 
> I have a book in the works that I was going to use Dundjinni for the maps, but since my margins don't allow for an additional license fee I guess I'll continue to use CC2 which isn't as pretty but is certainly acceptable and has no additional costs.




Ayrk, tell me what you need in terms of art for Dundjinni, and I'll make it for you. Walls, floors, objects, etc. I don't want money, just my name somewhere on that book of yours...


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## Ayrk (May 25, 2004)

prcrash said:
			
		

> Ayrk, tell me what you need in terms of art for Dundjinni, and I'll make it for you. Walls, floors, objects, etc. I don't want money, just my name somewhere on that book of yours...




That is a generous offer. Shoot me an email at erik@secondrat.com and we'll talk.


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## prcrash (May 25, 2004)

Ayrk said:
			
		

> That is a generous offer. Shoot me an email at erik@secondrat.com and we'll talk.




Check your e-mail...


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## argon_the_red (May 29, 2004)

Cerubus,

Did you try the new demo?  Does it run on your system?


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