# Opinions: What makes a good adventure?



## Mark

What is it that makes a good adventure?  What makes it fun and interesting?  What keeps you coming back to the game table again and again?  I'd also like for people to preface their comments by suggesting whether they believe they speak primarily from a Player or DM point of view (or both equally), as that can certainly make a big difference...

Thanks in advance for any comments!


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## The Sunderer

Blimey this is a difficult one...

(thinks)

(thinks some more)

I think that a good DM can make even the worst scenario a good experience...  Of course Players are important too and I have a player response to a scenario raise it above the bar as well...


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## Cloudgatherer

An interesting plot/story line, a dilemma, and "winning" in the end make an adventure worth while!  I'll also add creativity, as it is possibly one of the hardest things to do as a DM/GM, create an original plot line that keeps the players interested and saying "what happens next?"


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## Lidda

Treasure!

More treasure!

A lot of sneaking around, and hiding is good too!

And some combat to heighten the drama.  But only when it is something that has junk to kick.  Undead, constructs and creatures with no discernable anatomy have no junk to kick and so do not make for good combat encounters.

And, of course, after the combat is done, there must be wallets to steal, with more treasure!!!


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## Maudlin

Interactivity, I think. You can have the bestest dungeons and the most eeevil villains all you want, if the adventure is just one thing strung onto the end of the previous thing, people will leave to go play BG2.

Oh, and comprehensiveness. If something is plausible for the players to do, at least the attempt should be allowed. If a DM sins against this I usually go kick against a wall and ask if the facade falls over 

I guess this is from a player's perspective, although I don't think there is much difference. (I usually DM, but I enjoy DMing what the players enjoy playing)

Oh, wait, and lots of XP


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## Urbanmech

Interesting encounters, either unique locations or making rare (as in little used) monsters the focus.  Also an adventure should have a few different ways to reach the end goals.  Players usually chafe when they feel railroaded.

Templates and advanced monsters can make for very interesting encounter opponents that we never really saw in previous versions of the game.  They can make for tough and unpredictable foes.

Just my 2 copper.


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## Wulf Ratbane

Piles of dead bad guys. (TM)


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## Grim

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> *Piles of dead bad guys. (TM) *




I second that... and with some treasure too!!!

on a diffent note...

these boards are so quiet... only 130 or so people posting... wow... its kind of cool... like im part of some special fellowship or something... like a *CULT!!!*


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## The Sunderer

> on a diffent note...
> 
> these boards are so quiet... only 130 or so people posting... wow... its kind of cool... like im part of some special fellowship or something... like a CULT!!!




I wouldn't worry, the hordes will descend on us soon


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## Old One

I will answer as a DM and as a Player...

*DM's Perspective*

First off, I very rarely use modules/adventures "off the rack".  I have found, over the years, that it takes me just as much time to modify a module - because I like to tinker with everyting - as it does to make my own.  That said, here are the things I would look for:

 Detachable maps and handouts - I hate having to flip back and forth or photocopy a map for use in an adventure!
 Stats in the body of the adventure
 Timeline - I prefer a matrix-type adventure flow, as opposed to a linear approach.  A timeline and a couple of "if-then" contingencies are always nice
 Twists - a couple of good twists are always fun

*Player's Perspective*

When I play, which is all too infrequently, I look for the following:

 Consistency
 Variety of challenges - straight-up combat is fun, but I like adventures that combine intrigue, combat, puzzules and twists in equal doses
 Matrix Structure - I really dislike one-dimensional, linear adventures.  It should be about choices and consequences.

My two coppers!

Old One


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## Felonious Ntent

I agree 100% with Lidda.


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## Nish

1. Intrigue
2. Intrigue
3. Intrigue

Nothing beats unravelling a complicated and diabolical plot where each answer leads to three more questions.

Other things that are important are proper atmosphere and setting (dark, corrupt, and tragic are my personal favorites), interesting and well-developed characters (both PC and NPC) that are firmly connected to the game world, and every once in a while having, some feeling of usefulness/accomplishment/power and soforth.

All from a players perspective.


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## Mark

Within the adventure- Intrigue, Twists, Combat and Non-Linear Plots.  That's what I'm hearing the most... (Oh, yes.  Lots of XP and Treasure, too!)

New stuff isn't being mentioned much but I think a lot of you might feel that is implied.  Maybe not.  Maybe the feeling is that old dogs can do new tricks so new material isn't that important.  I'd like to hear more clarification of that on both sides of the issue.

I think that making sure there is some feeling of accomplishment is huge, as Nish and Cloudgatherer say.

On the more practical note, separating maps but integrating stat blocks is what Old One says.  Is this just his opinion or more universal?


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## Wulf Ratbane

Mark said:
			
		

> *On the more practical note, separating maps but integrating stat blocks is what Old One says.  Is this just his opinion or more universal? *




Yep. In both cases, it's about not having to flip back and forth to find the information you need.

I like to have my map clipped to the inside of my screen, and all the stats on the page that's open in front of me.

Of course from time to time I throw battles at my players where I can't fit all the stats on one page... sometimes the pile of dead bad guys is very tall indeed.

Wulf


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## Mark

My bad...

I forgot to mention the pile of dead bad guys!


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## Rel

This is a tough question and the answer is probably unique to each GM and his group of players.  I will mention one thing that I think makes a good adventure that I haven't seen above:  A plot that is meaningful to the characters on a personal level.

I have run plenty of good adventures where the party goes off to slay some dragon for the treasure or chop up some goblins for the "good of the kingdom".  But I find that the best adventures are the ones where the characters have a very personal stake in the outcome of the adventure.  Perhaps they are going to rescue a neice or nephew.  Maybe they are taking revenge on the goblins who killed one of their brothers.  They could be recovering a family heirloom that was stolen by bugbear bandits.  Whatever the reason, I try to make the motivation for the adventure more than a quest for more gold, experience points or even for "the greater good".

In my present campaign, the party (a druid, a fighter/ranger and a sorcerer/rogue) is waging war against a group of gnolls that have inhabited the abandoned ruins of a nearby town.  The druid wants them gone because they have shown that they have little respect for nature and because he has been promised a large tract of land to put into a "preserve" if the gnolls can be driven away.  The gnolls are the favored enemy of the fighter/ranger but he is also hoping to recover some treasure from them that was part of "trust fund" for the families of fallen soldiers, one of whom was his grandfather.  The sorcerer/rogue's girlfriend's parents were killed by the gnolls and he is partially pursuing them for revenge.  The ruins the gnolls presently inhabit guard the way to some silver mines from which the party has been promised a portion of the profits as reward for earlier heroism.  To top it off, the party was earlier nearly killed by the gnolls while traveling on a previous adventure (the one that earned them an interest in the silver mines).

Needless to say, they don't require any prodding to go after the adventure with great tenacity.

So I would say that the party sharing a common goal that they all wish to pursue for important character reasons is one ingredient for making good adventures.


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## Wulf Ratbane

*HEY!*



			
				Mark said:
			
		

> *My bad...
> 
> I forgot to mention the pile of dead bad guys!  *




You also forgot the TM.

*Piles of dead bad guys* is NOT open content! 

It is 100% Wulf Ratbane IP!


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## Dinkeldog

I think Rel nailed it, except that he didn't include the Pile of Dead Bad Guys (TM).  That's the quality that should push Deep Horizon up over the other Adventure Path series for my group.  When one of the players asks why they're going through all of this one of the other players answers instead of me.


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## Psion

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> *Yep. In both cases, it's about not having to flip back and forth to find the information you need.*




No joke! Monte preaches that you shouldn't waste space with that, but I find it so annoying to run games where I keep having to flip through the monster books, especially at high levels where the creatures tend to have lots of special abilties.

Anyways, from a DM standpoint, I also think that resilience to players going off the beaten path is essential. A great many adventures go off on the assumption that the players are going to make a specific choice, and give no thought at all to what other things the players might try and what happens if they do so.


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## Ziggy

As with all other questions related to quality there is no single answer to this. It depends quite a lot on the DM and the players, the theme of the campaign/setting a.s.o.

It is easier to point out the elements that makes for a bad adventure, IMHO these include:


* Inconsistency: * This is the biggest killer. Quite often I see adventures with no internal consistency. A good adventure should make sense, and monsters/NPC should just not be placed around at random. My biggest gripe is probably traps. All too often I see dungeons with traps scattered all over. How the inhabitants manage to get in and out without triggering all the traps is left unexplained, not to mention why they put them there in the first place. This annoys me both as a DM and a player.
* (Too much) randomness: * This is mostly a player gripe. A little randomness can be quite thrilling, but if I get the feeling that my actions/plans have no actual impact on the word, I get both bored and frustrated. Actions should have consequences, and encounters should not appear out of the blue. Thus random encounters are (in general) a bad thing unless there is a specific reason for them.
* Singular focus: * The adventure should allow for several roleplaying modi. An adventure with just combat (or just NPC interaction) gets boring after a short while. The adventure should also allow for change of pace, with situations with high and low "tenseness". 
* Linear plot: * This is both a DM and a player issue. I tend to get bored if the adventure has a simple structure. The real world is never simple, and I like the adventures to have the complexity found in real world situations. Thus simple "lets kill the evil wizard" is not rated high in by book, while "let find out who the mastermind behind the evil in the village" might be a good scenario if it includes multiple threads. Note that it can be too complicated, and the players should have a reasonable change of untangling the threads, if not you are falling into the "randomness" trap (at least from the player perspective). 

.Ziggy


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## Old One

*Rel's Comments...*

I think Rel's comments are very pertinent, especially in the context of linked adventures or a campaign.  Giving the players reasons to really *CARE* about the enviornment they are in. 

In my *Faded Glory* campaign, I have tied the PCs intimately to the game world...they, their friends, their family and their enemies all act, interact and react to what is going on.  It is tough to do that in a stand alone adventure, but one thing that I would like to see is more suggestions by adventure/module authors on how DMs can plug the offering into an on-going campaign.

Old One


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## wolff96

*Re: Good Adventures*

As a player, it's all about the encounters.  Whether it's going to sword to sword and spell to spell with the enemy or bowing to your dance partner at the king's masked ball, the characters you meet along the way are what brings the world to life.

In my opinion, this is something that exists totally outside game system.  Sure it's easy to make a monster unique by adding templates or odd powers to it, but it's the villainous little man who always lisps or has a manaical cackle that will stand out long after the latest half-fiend vampiric dragon is long dead. (Though I've got to admit that would be a memorable dragon!)

If the world doesn't live and breathe, it's not worth playing in.


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## Dave G

As a player... I just want a mixture of elements... I like hack and slash as much as the next person, but I want more opportunities to role play... I like puzzles and problem solving, but most DM's tend to overcompensate with them... just like with the monsters.  They need to make sense... why would the Arch Mage have a riddle trap in the sewer beneath his lab?  Why is the fire giant staying in this place?   Answer these questions in a way that makes sense, and the world will become more real for everyone playing...

On a side note, for those who shy away from published adventures, I really like what Thunderhead Games did in their _Interludes_ product, with ways to scale the encounters for different types of parties...  Very cool!


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## Pielorinho

Very interesting thread!  Some more thoughts:

-Villain Intelligence.  Nothing grates more than being genuinely outsmarted by a villain.  When the bad guy in our campaign stole all of our gear by shapeshifting into a party member, and by the way ambushed the impersonated party member and drove him insane, he earned a bunch of frothing enemies.  He didn't just hurt us or steal from us:  he wounded our pride, made us look like fools.

Contrariwise, I hate it when a putatively intelligent villain acts like a cretin.  In one adventure, an enchanter has the ability to enter people's dreams, charm them there, implant suggestions in their minds, etc.  What does the adventure designer have this villain do?  Enter people's minds and go "booga booga," that's what!  Stuff like that annoys me.

-Change of pacing.  Like Ziggy said, killing things all day long gets just as boring as talking all day long does.  I like adventures that include a mixture.

Otherwise, I agree with most of what's been said.

Daniel


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## Fayredeth

I will say that variety and yet continuity are big factors, an intriguing setup or plot, NPC interactivity, situations that make the players think and come up with a plan or else bad things will result. Keep it fresh. But don't hesitate to tie things in from the past which eventually dawn on the players. 

Does that make any sense?


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## Fenrir

A consistent mood, theme, and style creates an effect that leaves the players with a better experience than simply having a smorgasboard. Also, a healthy mixture of action and drama, an ending that leaves them going "wow," and appropriate buildup of tension to said ending are also very good to have.

Also, I think that a player, not just a character, should take something away from a good adventure- much like some video games, like Metal Gear Solid. Not only did you have fun, but you learned something from it or found something particularly intriguing about it.

Can't forget the piles of dead bad guys (TM).


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## WSmith

Of course many long haired, buxom beautiful women wearing chainmail bikini can't hurt either.


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## Uller

*FUN!*

As a DM:

An adventure is fun if it kept the player's attention and things went roughly as planned:  The problems were solvable, but not too easy or too hard.  The players all felt like they had a chance to participate and knew roughly what to do(with out being led by the nose...they had to have an opportunity to change the course of things if they wanted).

As a player:  It needs to be exciting.  Again, not overly complex, but not overly easy either.   I don't want to feel like I am following a single path...to follow it means success...to step off means death.   There needs to be at least one good fight(more are better) and a feeling that we've discovered something new or solved a problem.

I don't care too much about inconsistant stories and what not...last game, we accidently released a demon...then we killed it without too much difficulty.  There were powerful people keeping the demon locked up...obviously if we could destroy it, they could destroy it...I didn't allow that to ruin my fun....It was fun fighting the thing.  It was fun negotiating with the people who were keeping it locked up....


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## Pielorinho

*Drama Scenes*

As a DM, I love getting to my Drama scenes.

Preparing Drama Scenes is the best part of game preparation.  I hate making up stats for villains, and so I spend most of my time on the Drama Scenes, relying on tools like PCGen for a lot of the grunt work.

To continue my previous example, in the last session, a magical villain was able to enter the dreams of the players and make magical suggestions to them within their dreams.  I spent awhile figuring out first what sort of suggestion he'd make, and then how each nightmare would play out.

Each nightmare "script" (I allowed players to interrupt the script with their own dream-actions) pulled on imagery from that PC's past, trying to creep the PC and player out as much as possible.

Now, there are precautions the PCs could have taken which would have prevented these nightmares from occurring; if they'd taken them, I would've had to suck it up and either modify or discard all my planning.

The fact that they didn't take these precautions meant that I got to play through these Drama Scenes.  Which was lots of fun for me.

This is kinda based off of something PirateCat once wrote about adventure design:  he starts with an interesting scene and tries to figure out how to get the story to that scene.  I don't quite work that way -- I put pretty heavy weight on starting with NPC motivations and schemes, and work forward from there.  But I definitely see the advantage of the Drama Scene method, and I try to marry the two approaches to story design as much as I can.

Daniel


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## Nightfall

Well I can think of at least three adventures in print and/or in Electronic format that are out.

White Robes and Black Hearts: The Enigma of the Aracanex by Dark Portal Games. Simply put, you want REALLY challenge your players, this is the module for you, ESPECIALLY if they are looking for a questing type of game.

Interludes: Excursions into Bluffside by Thunderhead Games. It is by far one of the more scalable and hands on type of deals for PCs, plus the fact nothing is ever certain or ending. 

Rappen Athuk: 15 levels of pure hell and dungeon crawl madness. Without a doubt, this adventure will give your players some REAL nightmares and see at least more than one character die gruesomely. 

Course I'm thinking that Necropolis will be even BETTER but still, that's because it was already done before hand!  

So there's my picks fellas. Take them for what they are.


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## Mark

Nightfall said:
			
		

> *Well I can think of at least three adventures in print...
> 
> So there's my picks fellas. Take them for what they are. *




Of course, reading the thread might help you form a post next time, Nighty-Night.   I'm really not looking for recommendations of specific adventures, just opinions of what makes any adventure (in general) better than others.

Nice to see you took your time with the spelling of your screenname this time, though I'll miss that extra "t"... 

*edit* To clarify, please give us your impressions of what makes a good adventure, Nightfall.  I do like your picks, but I am looking for more generalized input. Sorry about the screenname crack but I'll bet that was bugging you a bit, too, eh?  C'mon.... Admit it...  *end edit*


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## TheDayKnight

As a DM:

The adventure must enhance the campaign plot-line. The PCs must have a good time. 

As a player:

An adventure that makes me feel that I am affecting the world or country in a signifigant way. Not simply a "hack-through-the-tulips".


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## Basil

Giant melted-cheese alligators.

Oh!  And, uh... what's it called?  Oh, yeah.  Fun...

But, seriously... Giant melted-cheese alligators really make the game worth while.

-Basil


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## Sir Hawkeye

A sense of danger. It's not fun if the PC's don't feel like they're being challenged.

And a backup plan. i.e. What happens if the PC's fail, and where do they go from there?

Plus everything else that's been mentioned.

And zombies.


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## Holy Bovine

Good adventures....hmmmm...wish i had the skill to run some of _those_ 

Seriously I feel a good adventure has to have a large variety of things for the PC's to do.  As others have said just killing stuff or just talking gets old fast.  But even beyond that I would suggest players also have options to go 'outside the book' and attempt things not covered by the adventure as written.

I love it when adventure writers give a little sidebar or note saying 'what to do if...' or even better 'further adventure ideas in...'  You would be amazed how often those little 'further adventure ideas in..' blurbs have been turned into full blown adventures that superced the main one.  Of course this usually results in some 'seat of the pants' DM-ing but that's always been one of my strong suits.

Interesting NPC's and locations always help even if is only something as simple a Weaponsmith with an unusal way to do inventory.  

For example in my current campagin the party met a weaponsmith called Crazy Egor (yes stolen for the used games supplier but based off how his Gen Con booth was organized the year I went there).  When they asked him if he had any silvered weapons he reached into a large barrel full of swords, daggers and whatnot and pulled out exactly what the PC wanted.  Without a scratch on him.  Got a few raised eyebrows at the table at the time.  He also had a thing about tridents (but I won't go into that here  )

*whew* long post.  Don't know if any of it is helpful but there it is.


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## Creamsteak

Im such an idea thief... but is it wrong? I'm stealing ideas from all over this forum for my campaign, I hope it is not insulting. I like a lot of the really original ideas. 

Anyhowitz...

I run about three great sessions in a row before suddenly it all begins to get repetative all at one time. Then we double back, go the opposite way and repeat.

You probably won't have a perfect campaign, you might have one like mine. I've recently learned to go ahead and plot ahead about twenty sessions to much. You might think it can be a waste of time, but for me at least, I have found that while the PC's become sidetracked doing something it is important for things you plotted to involve the PC's to continue to happen. After about the third turn around you have a nasty web of different things going on at the same time, and the PC's have a nice variety of choices to make that seriously effect the campaign setting.

This refers to a sort of edge of the seat DMing... sort of.


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## Pillars of Hercules

CM, from the perspective of either DM or player, I'd go with interactivity and multiple solutions.  This translates into the  following obscure principles:

The barkeep is Arran, Son of Horrin, not, uh, "the barkeep."

There should be more than one way to skin the cat.  

When the PCs push, the villians and the world at large should push back.

Does any of this make sense?


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## Mark

Good stuff.  Thanks to everyone who replied.  Any more ideas?


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## Ziggy

Some more  (mostly positive this time):

GM:

- Explain the *motivation* of the major NPC's, not just their actions. This will make it much easier to react to player input and unexpected situations. 

- Good layout (in a published adventure). The difference between a smooth flowing session and flipping desperately through the book is decided by the layout and structure of the material. 

- Surprises. If an adventure doesn't make me think "That's a pretty neat idea" or even better "That's so coool", I won't play it. So, it should include something like a neat magic item, a fun story/background, and interesting NPC (or all of them....  )

PC:

- Allow creative solutions, don't have "only this thing (found on corpse 34) can solve this puzzle" situations. Don't require specific skills, spells or items in order to complete the adventure

- FUN. It's been said before, but it *is* the most important thing of any RPG sessions. I'll say it again: FUN FUN FUN FUN FUN  (it's that important)...

- Surprises. I like to be surprised as a player as well. Not all the time, but at least scene should have a surprise or hidded twist.

.Ziggy


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## Ravellion

I need "Realism". I have to believe it somehow, or I will become awfully aware that I am sitting in a dining room, which is bad. "Realism" is very important for me becoming immersed in teh story.

Rav


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