# Steven Eriksons Malazan series



## Scorch (Sep 12, 2004)

Well,  I just finished the first book of the series and am eager to read the others.  Unfortunately they are not out in America yet.

Does anyone know of Tor's release schedule of the rest of the series.  I would by used copies but they are going for $30 to $40 EACH!  Anyone know of a cheap source for them?

Thanks,

Scorch


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## drothgery (Sep 12, 2004)

A Canadian online bookstore (like www.Amazon.ca or www.Chapters.ca) will sell you the books new for a fairly reasonable price (though shipping from Canada is a little more than shipping within the US); remember the prices are in Canadian dollars, so check exchange rates (www.xe.com) to figure out how much you're actually spending.


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## barsoomcore (Sep 13, 2004)

They are worth every penny, I'll tell you that.

And the Canadian editions, though they have pretty crappy covers, don't have nearly the horrific covers the American editions have been saddled with. Man, those suck.


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## Scorch (Sep 13, 2004)

barsoomcore said:
			
		

> They are worth every penny, I'll tell you that.
> 
> And the Canadian editions, though they have pretty crappy covers, don't have nearly the horrific covers the American editions have been saddled with. Man, those suck.




Thanks, all!  I placed my order with Amazon.ca.  

I have to agree about the covers.  I was looking at the American cover of "Gardens of the Moon" and thinking to myself:  "That guy is not Whiskeyjack, Coll, Paran, Croaker, or Kalam.  The girl is not Lorn, definitely not Tattersail, but maybe can be Sorry... maybe..."

I have always had a serious problem with recent cover art of Fantasy novels.  Ah well, I usually remove the dust covers while reading the hard backs and then slip them back on when I place it on the book shelf.

Scorch


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## Cthulhu's Librarian (Sep 13, 2004)

barsoomcore said:
			
		

> And the Canadian editions, though they have pretty crappy covers, don't have nearly the horrific covers the American editions have been saddled with. Man, those suck.



 I REALLY like the Canadian/British covers. What do you find crappy about them? I thought they fit the books quite well, and they completely avoided the typical fantasy trope of "Buff guy with sword and girl" that the US edition has embraced to my dismay.


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## Scorch (Sep 13, 2004)

I just finished reading an interview with the author:

http://www.sfsite.com/06a/se82.htm

I knew this guy had to be a gamer as I read the first novel and sure enough he states outright that he has been gaming since his 20s in a GURPS variant system.

I am going to have to check out the "Monarchies of God" series since he said it was some of the best fantasy fiction he has read.

Scorch


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## barsoomcore (Sep 14, 2004)

A couple are OKAY. _Gardens of the Moon_ and _Deadhouse Gates_ are alright covers. But I find the figures on _Memories of Ice_ and _Midnight Tides_ poorly done, and they just aren't very attractive.

They're not HORRIBLE, and no question they're better than most of the spew-some hackery that one finds on most fantasy novel covers, but I wouldn't put them up on my living room wall, for example. Unlike, say, this:







Oh Frank, why have you forsaken us?

I've got nothing against "buff guy + girl" covers, but at least have them done by somebody with an artistic sensibility who knows how to create powerful images. Most fantasy novel covers appear to be done by somebody who has airbrushed photographs of bored models.

I blame Boris Vallejo.


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## Pants (Sep 14, 2004)

Cthulhu's Librarian said:
			
		

> I REALLY like the Canadian/British covers. What do you find crappy about them? I thought they fit the books quite well, and they completely avoided the typical fantasy trope of "Buff guy with sword and girl" that the US edition has embraced to my dismay.



Deadhouse Gates and House of Chains have awesome covers.  The others, I admit, are fairly boring.  Memories of Ice and Midnight Tides both plain suck.


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## barsoomcore (Sep 14, 2004)

Here's another interview from the TOR website:

http://www.tor.com/erikson/meet.html

And for further horror, here's the US cover of _Deadhouse Gates_:

http://www.stephenyoull.com/New20.html

Yikes.

This series is kind of interesting in the way it's getting published. Erickson has published two novellas set in Malazan with minor characters from the "core" novels through a company called PSPublishing, and now that same company has announced a novel being written by one Ian Cameron Esselmont that is apparently a Malazan-set novel. Esselmont is apparently the co-creator of the Malazan world and an old friend of Erickson's, so this is all kind of wacky and fun.


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## Liminal Syzygy (Sep 14, 2004)

Interesting comment in the latter interview about how he seems spell-casting tropes pass back and forth between fantasy books and RPGs and lose their flavor. How his system of "warrens" was created to break away from this and how he is trying to be vague about how it really works.

By the way, I saw elsewhere that he is looking to finish book 6 by Dec. 2004, so an April 2005 release may not be likely, but isn't out of the question. We're probably looking at mid-next year.


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## Khayman (Sep 14, 2004)

Steven Erikson...? 

<googles furiously>

I thought he was familiar. He's another anthropologist! And, now that I'm looking at a photo of him, I've seen him shopping at a bookstore near here.

I've been told by two people to read his stuff, and now this thread comes up. All right, world, I get the hint.


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## Liminal Syzygy (Sep 14, 2004)

Let us know what you think of his work from the standpoint of another anthropologist!


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## mmu1 (Sep 14, 2004)

I've heard a lot of good stuff about this guy, but the problem I generally have with following ENWorld recommendations is that Gene Wolfe and R.A. Salvatore both get equally enthusiastic reviews around here, sometimes...

Fortunately, I came across the 1st book in hardcover yesterday at Barnes and Noble marked down to $12.50, and it is looking good, aside from the cover.


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## barsoomcore (Sep 14, 2004)

mmu1 said:
			
		

> The problem I generally have with following ENWorld recommendations is that Gene Wolfe and R.A. Salvatore both get equally enthusiastic reviews around here, sometimes...



Hee.

Does it help to know that I, probably Mr. Erickson's biggest booster on this board, am on the Gene Wolfe side of that particular opposition?

If you like Gene Wolfe and hate R.A. Salvatore, you'll probably like Steven Erickson. If you're the opposite, you'll probably hate Erickson.


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## Pozatronic (Sep 14, 2004)

barsoomcore said:
			
		

> If you like Gene Wolfe and hate R.A. Salvatore, you'll probably like Steven Erickson. If you're the opposite, you'll probably hate Erickson.





  I dislike R.A. Salvatore. I have yet to read any of Gene Wolfe, but after looking through some of his books and after all the good things I've read about him on ENWorld, I plan on giving him a go.

   I may be the only one, but I started the Gardens of the Moon after I received a preview copy...and I didn't really care for it. It was neat at first, but I quickly lost interest in it. I thought it was (don't hate me for this) kinda lame. I didn't really take interest in the Warrens, none of the characters were "alive" to me...maybe I should give it another go (after Gene Wolfe, of course). For some reason I was expecting it to a different kind of epic...more mythic, like Tanith Lee's Flat Earth series. Although, it did have a slightly Martinish feel, what with everybody dying. Please understand, I just came off reading Guy Gavriel Kay's last novel, and a Tanith Lee run...those two authors are difficult to beat.


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## drothgery (Sep 14, 2004)

In a lot of ways, the Mazalan books are _The Black Company_ meets _The Wheel of Time_, done very well (so far, though I've yet to read book five, as I'm waiting for the paperback).


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## barsoomcore (Sep 14, 2004)

Only with a two-hundred-thousand year history of revenge and pain behind them.

_Gardens of the Moon_ is easily the worst of the series. It's confusing and sometimes not as well-written as the later books are. If you can get through it, you're off to a heck of a race.

VERY different from Guy Gavriel Kay, I'll grant. I find him very different from Martin (who I don't like very much), too.

Pozatronic, you are certainly not the only one to find Erickson not to your tastes. It isn't for everyone, and I think there are some very fair criticisms that can be levelled at the first book. Things do improve muchly after that, and I happen to like the first book, so there you go.


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## Harp (Sep 15, 2004)

I was able to grab a copy of the first book on a recent trip to England, thinking it would be ideal for the 10-hour plane ride home.  But, like others apparently, I didn't find myself really getting drawn in by the story or caring about any of the characters after the first 100 pages, so I gave it up and watched the 'Starsky and Hutch' in-flight movie instead.  Heck, maybe that says it all right there.

For reference, some of my favorite fantasy authors include Martin, Cook (the Books of the North, in particular), and Kay.  Naturally, I was very excited to see that Erickson's work had been favorably compared to them, but from my perspective, it just didn't pan out.  I'm not enough of a literary critic to explain why it was different, it just didn't work for me.

And for the record, I can't stand Salvatore, and haven't read Wolfe.


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## Pants (Sep 15, 2004)

barsoomcore said:
			
		

> _Gardens of the Moon_ is easily the worst of the series. It's confusing and sometimes not as well-written as the later books are. If you can get through it, you're off to a heck of a race.



I actually really liked GotM (although DG is better so far), but it has some really noticeable problems.  

GotM spoilers below...

The characterization is quite thin and the attack on Anomander Rake and the Moon's Spawn is one of the most confusing and poorly written parts of a book I've ever read.  At some point, it supposedly shifts into a 'flashback' moment, but it's so poorly done that it makes it seem as if Hairlock dies twice.  I reread that part several times, but it took someone on the Malazan forums to point out to me that it was a flashback scene.  Ugh.

However, aside from that, the book is pretty good.  Confusing at times, but still good.


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## Eridanis (Sep 15, 2004)

On barsoomcore's recommendation, I read the first book, and really enjoyed it. Haven't ordered the following books yet, though I will (unless the American editions come out before I get around to it!).

I was at Barnes & Noble last week, and saw the US first edition hardcover for 50% off. $12 is a great price for a hardcover, and definitely worth it for the story.


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## barsoomcore (Sep 16, 2004)

As you say, Pants, there's definitely problems with GotM. I like it, as well, but I recognize its flaws. When I finished it, I thought, "Well, there were a lot of cool ideas in there, but I don't know that he's much of a writer."

I read it over again, though, so obviously the cool ideas really spoke to me. They were cool enough that I made the effort to plug through the writing and figure out what was going on.

It's _Deadhouse Gates_ that draws people in. Honestly, everyone, if you thought GotM had good ideas but found it confusing or not super-exciting, you owe it to yourself to pick up DG and give it a go. Things REALLY take off with that book, and for my money the one following -- _Memories of Ice_ -- is even better. MoI is one of the best books I've read in recent years. Absolutely blew me away, and convinced me that Erickson just might be a genius. Whether or not he actually is a genius remains to be seen -- if he can wrap up this series in a satisfying manner and maintain the level of quality he's reached, then yep, he's a genius.

I don't know that he's as good as Steven Brust, but he's awfully darn good. But then, Steven Brust is the best writer EVAH, so obviously nobody is as good as him.


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## neg (Sep 17, 2004)

*Tor/Erikson/Me*

Nice to see Erikson getting some posts on my favorite boards.

I work as a salesperson for Tor and all of the publishers associated with the parent company.

Let me see if I can give you some information that might be useful:

Comparisons to the Black Company are very apt.  I am reading Glen Cook's series right now.

Gardens of the Moon in mass market in January '05, look for it very late in December.  It contains a teaser to Deadhouse Gates, Book 2.

If you are a hardcover junky, it has been marked down and now is the time to get it at chain bookstores like Barnes and Nobles, Borders, Hastings, Books a Million, and Media Play.  If you would be so kind to hunt down your local Media Play and purchase it there, I would be ever so greatful as I handle that account.

Book 2 Deadhouse Gates is being published in two different and simultaneous formats.

Hardcover Deadhouse Gates ISBN 0765310023 $25.95.  Should hit the streets on 2/2/05.  May be difficult to find because of the other version we are publishing, so you might want to special order it.

Tradepaper of Deahouse Gates ISBN 0765314290  $14.95.  Should hit the streets on 2/2/05 and will definitely be the choice format stocked and promoted at most bookstores.  You can probably hunt down a discount copy early after publication.  I know Media Play will have it 20% off.  I am sure other retailers will have it discounted as well, just not sure who.  

Tor felt they didn't get the audience they wanted on the first book, so they did a wise and gutsy play and they are hoping it will pay off.  They heavily markdowned the hardcover of book 1 to build the readership and they will publish the next book in a cheaper trade paper edition to further build readership.

They are looking to publish a new Erikson every nine months at this point.

Hope this was helpful, let me know if there are any questions.  I might be able to answer them.

-neg


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## neg (Sep 17, 2004)

*What a great find!*



			
				barsoomcore said:
			
		

> This series is kind of interesting in the way it's getting published. Erickson has published two novellas set in Malazan with minor characters from the "core" novels through a company called PSPublishing, and now that same company has announced a novel being written by one Ian Cameron Esselmont that is apparently a Malazan-set novel. Esselmont is apparently the co-creator of the Malazan world and an old friend of Erickson's, so this is all kind of wacky and fun.




Holy cow!  Thanks barsoomcore, this made my day.

You can buy the three books mention by barsoomcore at this website in the United States, I was able to hunt down the link for PSPublishing.

http://www.clarkesworldbooks.com/index.html

Yum!  More Malazan goodness!

-neg


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## jester47 (Sep 17, 2004)

neg said:
			
		

> I work as a salesperson for Tor and all of the publishers associated with the parent company.
> 
> Comparisons to the Black Company are very apt.  I am reading Glen Cook's series right now.
> 
> ...




Hey Neg,

Let me see if I can give you some information that might be useful, hopefully you can get it back to TORs marketing people...

Some reasons sales might not have been as good: 

The art on the cover looked like "Generic Fantasy Epic here!  Our cover looks like a bunch of other cheap authors you have never heard of so buy this book."  They need to get the original art or get a new Non-Bore-Laggio artist to do the cover.  Apparently marketing has NO IDEA that their covers are killing their sales.  F/SF readers go off the cover.  DEL REY knows this.  Wizards of the Coast knows this.  Ballentine knows this.  When browsing, they judge by the cover.  Readers think "Hey, they kicked down some money(or took some time to find a good artist) for this art, someone has a discerning eye and has a good (probably expensive) cover design graphic artist, that means they are putting some effort behind it, so it might actully not be trash."  Use the original art used for Deadhouse Gates, I garuntee sales will jump. 

On any kind of promotion they need to say its like Gleen Cook meets George R. R. Martin.  They need to leave any mention of Jordan out of it.  Even though I never liked the guy (Jordan), most of us that WERE fans are getting really sick of that him (at least I am finding more and more).  The last thing we want is ANOTHER Robert Jordan spinning our WHEELS and wasting our TIME.

No one knows who this Steven Erikson guy is.  He needs reviews in lots of places.  People need to see where he got to in canada and the UK.  If TORs Marketing is worth their salt, they wont depend on the book jockys at B&N to know who he is and spread the word.  I found out about him by word of mouth through a collector.  I had never heard of him before.  AND I WAS WORKING AT B&N, and I prided myself on at knowing most of the obscure authors names in the SciFi/Fantasy section.  

Of course if you don't ever talk to the marketing folks (I think you do cause sales is pretty darned close to marketing) then I guess this is a useless rant.  

Aaron.


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## neg (Sep 17, 2004)

*Hey Aaron-*

Thanks for your input.  Sales actual does get some input on marketing and such.  The covers have been a hot topic of discussion and continued to be mulled over.  I believe the feeling was that the first two British covers were good, but after that the artwork got less "useful" in relation to the actual content of the books.  It continues to be debated...I won't say more than that.

The publisher and the in house readers know the better comparisons are to Glen Cook, and George R. R. Martin.  We are steering comparisons to Martin more than anyone else.  We know that this is not a Wheel of Time, and sales has been conveying to the publisher that Jordan is seeing some pushback from the readers as to his novels.  New Spring in particular, stressed this point.  I think the publisher understands that now.

With all that said, I must defend Tor.  They are the top Sci-Fi/Fantasy publisher in the US, hands down.  They might not be your personal favorite, but the industry knows this to be true.  Tor has been voted Locus magazines "best publisher" like 16 years running.  They do know what they are doing a vast majority of the time.

However, this is case where sales enthusiasm outstripped marketing efforts I believe, and we are seeing some difficuty with sell through.  The publisher is making adjustments, and some intelligent ones at that.  I think once the first mass market lands, more people will pick up the book and they will have a better result with book 2, especially with it coming in trade paper to launch.

You still in the book industry?

-neg


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## jester47 (Sep 17, 2004)

Sorry to get all ranty Neg, Tor is a good publisher I like a lot of their stuff, just the art somtimes...  I think they slipped on "moon."  But then again, its somtimes better to build hype slowly than to shout "TADA!" and then sadly watch everyone continue on their business like nothing had happened.  

Yes and no to being in the book industry.  I always consider myself in the industry as my mother wrote the Harbrace College Handbook for many years.  So I was around publishers and editors for much of my life.  Enough so that I think I can tell whole divisions of publishing companies how they should do their job.   As for it putting food on the table, nope, I am now in the proud employ of a major software producer in the pacific northwest.  Yay.  

Marketing is my guilty fantasy.  I think I know what sells cause I pay attention to how people think...

Aaron.


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## drothgery (Sep 18, 2004)

jester47 said:
			
		

> On any kind of promotion they need to say its like Glen Cook meets George R. R. Martin. They need to leave any mention of Jordan out of it. Even though I never liked the guy (Jordan), most of us that WERE fans are getting really sick of that him (at least I am finding more and more). The last thing we want is ANOTHER Robert Jordan spinning our WHEELS and wasting our TIME.



But the Mazalan books _aren't_ Cook meets Martin, they're Cook meets Jordan (unless Martin picked up a much more High Fantasy tone after book two, where I gave up on Martin, which I'm pretty sure he didn't). They're in a world where magic is common and powerful. Ancient history is a major driving force in the story. The cast of characters is incredibly large. Erikson is more likely to kill off a character than Jordan, but he's far less likely than Martin to do so.


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## jester47 (Sep 18, 2004)

drothgery said:
			
		

> But the Mazalan books _aren't_ Cook meets Martin, they're Cook meets Jordan (unless Martin picked up a much more High Fantasy tone after book two, where I gave up on Martin, which I'm pretty sure he didn't). They're in a world where magic is common and powerful. Ancient history is a major driving force in the story. The cast of characters is incredibly large. Erikson is more likely to kill off a character than Jordan, but he's far less likely than Martin to do so.




YMMV?


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## jester47 (Sep 18, 2004)

Hey there Neg,

I gotta apologize.  I happened to be in a bookstore today and I realised the mistake I made.  For some reason, don't ask me why, I get TOR and BAEN confused.  BAEN is the company o' bad covers.  However the fact I thought that "moons" was published by BAEN does say somthing about its cover art...

Again sorry, ussually the cover art for TOR books is spot on.  

Aaron.


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## neg (Sep 18, 2004)

*Covers*

Yeah Baen seems to have kept the same artist since almost inception of the imprint, which makes there covers just too similar book to book in my opinion.  

Tor had a little bit of the same habit, especially on their fiction side imprint called Forge.  However, I think they have gotten away from that in the past few years.  Much to the betterment of the books and the sales.  Still a wider array of covers would only further benefit us.  But publishing is always looking for repeated successes, so innovation isn't always at the top of the list.

I haven't read Martin, but I have read Cook and Jordan.  Erikson falls into the Cook comparison easily, but I don't know about the Jordan comparison, though I have only read Eye of the World.

Sadly publishing always has found the need to draw easy boxed comparisons for sell in and sell through.  Buyers/readers/salesman/editors et all...would rather know who a person writes like rather than what makes them stand out from the pack so that they can easily draw comparisons and nod their heads.  It is just the way the business works.   For Fiction it is Da Vinci Code, before that it was Lovely Bones, before that it was Nanny Diaries.  For Sci-Fi/Fantasy it is almost always Jordan, Goodkind, Brookes (I see that fewer than the other two), Martin, and Orson Scott Card.  It is the nature of the business.

-neg


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## Clarkesworld Books (Sep 18, 2004)

*Erikson's books*

Hi!  I found this place by tracking back a link to my site.  Great to see this conversation going on and if I'll have to mention it to the folks over at the Malazan.com forums.  I'm sure they'd be just as interested as I am.

It seems that there is almost universal dislike of the US covers.  Reaction from the long-time (pre-US publication) fans has been horrible.  They feel the art doesn't represent the story.  I'm inclined to agree.  It certainly didn't make selling this book easy.  I had to twist a lot of arms to get people to ignore the cover.   

I've been importing Midnight Tides and it's actually outsold Gardens.  The Blood Follows and The Healthy Dead novellas set sales records for us.  This is a great series.   While I am extremely happy that TOR is rolling the rest of the books out in 9 month intervals, they have slipped up with the presentation and marketing of Gardens.  Those of us who have seen the cover art for Tor's edition of Deadhouse Gates continue to be disturbed.  (A link to the artists work was posted at the Malazan forum.)  Most of us are hoping that the quality of the story eventually overcomes this... as it should.

I think I can get off my soapbox now...  I should say that this instance (and their website) are the only times I've been disappointed in Tor.  They are typically a quality operation.

  -Neil


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## neg (Sep 18, 2004)

*Covers?*

Hey Neil-

Heh, I just ordered some Erikson books from you this morning.  I can recommend Clarksworld Books on customer service.  I had a slight payment problem, emailed, and Neil got right back to me.  On a Saturday no less!

Any way, I hear the cover issue.  Truly I do not think that the first cover, Gardens of the Moon U.S. Edition, was THAT bad.     Seriously, I think it will make for an attractive mass market, and hopefully the casual browser will take a chance.

I do think that some of the older fans are wanting to find some identifable characters on the covers.  And I don't disagree that they might have some trouble finding that on the covers of the U.S. Editions.  However, I don't think the first cover is truly horrible, rather I think it works toward getting the casual browser to take a look at it.  Especially when it gets to mass market.

Now, with that said, I do have some difficulty with the forthcoming cover for Deadhouse Gates.  I actually prefer the British cover for this title, and I wish we would go with it personally.  Nothing personal against the artist who put time and effort into the cover, but I think the British cover captures this book particularly well.

I am not thrilled with the next few British covers personally.  I don't think a new cover treatment for the U.S. Editions of those books is necessarily a bad thing.

But too much discussion about the covers, I would rather get people to read the content of the book than dwell on the cover.  Maybe the age old adage "Don't judge a book...." applies here.

I hope people pick up a discounted hardcover (available now) or a mass market of Gardens of the Moon in Jan '05.  You won't regret it.

-neg


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## Clarkesworld Books (Sep 19, 2004)

*Covers*

Thanks Neg!

Wish I could agree that this cover attracted customers.  I've seen covers do that in our store, but this certainly wasn't one of them.  Fortunately word of mouth has been strong and with a cheaper edition on the way, people will be willing to take the chance.  Given that the later books are even better, he should do very well after this slow start in the US. 

I'll certainly second Neg's "don't judge a book by it's cover" on this one.  Excellent series and the best is yet to come.

 -Neil


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## barsoomcore (Sep 19, 2004)

neg said:
			
		

> Holy cow!  Thanks barsoomcore, this made my day.



Feel free to reward me with freebies. 

This has been a very interesting thread, I have to say. Nice to see people who actually know what they're talking about posting. Cause otherwise, you'd all have to listen to me blathering on and on about how great Steven Erickson is.


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## jester47 (Sep 19, 2004)

I forgot to mention that when I was in said bookstore I picked up one of those discounted Gardens of the Moon copies.  

Barsoomcore is probably picking his jaw up off the floor at this point, as he and I went round about Memories of Ice.  But I plan on giving Erikson a second chance, as I think I was trying to read the book too fast last time.  Now that I own an Erikson book I can take my time rather than have to worry about returning it on time.  Hopefully the rumor that ERikson's books stand on thier own as separate stories is true. 

Aaron.


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## barsoomcore (Sep 20, 2004)

I think that taking the books in order will greatly improve your opinion of them. Though the flaws that you saw in MoI exist in abundance in GotM. You have been warned.

Stick with it, though, because _Deadhouse Gates_ is amazing.


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## Cthulhu's Librarian (Sep 20, 2004)

Hey Neg-

 How long have you worked for Tor? My wife Laura worked there for a couple years, from 97-99. She was Linda's assistant for a year, and then the Ad/Promo Coordinator for 2 years. Maybe you met her at Sales Conference if you were there then?


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## TheOtherFool (Sep 21, 2004)

I'm one of the long-time malazan fans Neil mentioned and i'd just thought i'd add my bit on the cover issue.

My problem with the covers isnt so much that i cannot see any of the characters in them. Heck, i still dont know who the characters on the UK covers are supposed to be.

Thing is, they simply lack style and uniqueness. I will bet you anything that if you held a drawing competition without the judges even knowing any of the books, 10 times out of 10 the UK covers will destroy the US ones.

And of course one shouldnt judge a book by its cover, but when i put one of my favorite books/series on my shelf, i'd really like it to look good, and not like pulp.

So if i lived in the US and didnt have the books yet but knew how good they were, i'd import them just for the cover even if i had to pay a couple bucks more.


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## neg (Sep 21, 2004)

Cthulhu's Librarian said:
			
		

> Hey Neg-
> 
> How long have you worked for Tor? My wife Laura worked there for a couple years, from 97-99. She was Linda's assistant for a year, and then the Ad/Promo Coordinator for 2 years. Maybe you met her at Sales Conference if you were there then?





That is a little before my time.  I joined VHPS in January of 2001, so I missed her by a few years.

Is she still in the industry? Are you?

-neg


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## Cthulhu's Librarian (Sep 21, 2004)

neg said:
			
		

> That is a little before my time.  I joined VHPS in January of 2001, so I missed her by a few years.
> 
> Is she still in the industry? Are you?



 And now to take this conversation off topic... 

 No, neither of us work in publishing anymore. She worked for Tor in Marketing and Ad Promo, and I worked for HarperCollins in both the HarperPrism (now EOS) & HarperEntertainment divisions as an Assistant Editor. Now we both work for the University of Virginia, she's in the bookstore and I'm in the library. 

 Did you work for any of the other publishers before VHPS? I've got friends around the industry in several companies. You said you are in sales, what part of the country do you cover? 

 If you should happen to talk to Linda Quinton or David Hartwell, tell them Laura Martof and Rich Miller say hello.


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## Scorch (Sep 21, 2004)

Cthulhu's Librarian said:
			
		

> And now to take this conversation off topic...




To bring it back on topic briefly, I just wanted to thank you all for your replies.  I got Books 2, 4, and 5 from Amazon.ca last week (#3 is on its way).  

Read the intro/prelude to book 2 last night.  

Thanks,

Scorch


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## neg (Sep 22, 2004)

Cthulhu's Librarian said:
			
		

> Did you work for any of the other publishers before VHPS? I've got friends around the industry in several companies. You said you are in sales, what part of the country do you cover?
> 
> If you should happen to talk to Linda Quinton or David Hartwell, tell them Laura Martof and Rich Miller say hello.




Off Topic:

VHPS is the first major New York publisher I have worked for.  Prior to this I worked for a local Minnesota publisher that was small to medium sized, but nothing like the New York behemoths.

For VHPS my former territory was the Upper Midwest: MN (based), IA, WI, and NE.  But they just promoted me, and I work for mass merchandise now calling on Levy in Chicago.  A much different line of work to be sure.

I will pass on hellos when I see everyone at presales in a few weeks!

On Topicish:

So does anyone think they should make a d20 campaign product off of these books at some point?  I mean they are making The Black Company d20, why not Malazan?

-neg


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## barsoomcore (Sep 23, 2004)

Yes, I do. For the warrens, for the Deck, for the Houses and Holds and Thrones, for the gods and their servants, for all that, yes.

The BIG problem will be balance. Why would anyone want to play Fiddler when you could play Anomander Rake? Or at any rate, if Fred is playing Rake and George is playing Fiddler, how do you run a game that allows them both to contribute and have fun?


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## myrdden (Sep 23, 2004)

barsoomcore said:
			
		

> Yes, I do. For the warrens, for the Deck, for the Houses and Holds and Thrones, for the gods and their servants, for all that, yes.
> 
> The BIG problem will be balance. Why would anyone want to play Fiddler when you could play Anomander Rake? Or at any rate, if Fred is playing Rake and George is playing Fiddler, how do you run a game that allows them both to contribute and have fun?





Wouldn't that be like running an Epic character alongside a 10th level character?


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## CCamfield (Sep 23, 2004)

Personally I'd rather it not be d20 but an rpg would be great.  

It'd be interesting to see a list of assassin abilities.  The scene after Kalam got out of the harbour (in book 3, I think) was wicked and very surprising...


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## barsoomcore (Sep 23, 2004)

myrdden said:
			
		

> Wouldn't that be like running an Epic character alongside a 10th level character?



Well, yeah, that's kind of my point.

I'm not saying it's a problem that can't be solved, but it's still a problem.


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## Liminal Syzygy (Sep 24, 2004)

Yes, it would be great to see such a product -- I would definitely buy it. But from the interview on Tor's web site it seems the warrens-driven magic system was purposely created to be vague and not easily translatable into an RPG.


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## DrBloodmoney (Sep 30, 2004)

Hi all,
My first post here.  Followed a link that Neil posted over at www.malazan.com.

Just wanted to say that on a good number of webforums that I hang out at for Sf/F books, most of the members had purchased the Malazan books from overseas.  I have imported all of them so far, and will probably continue to do so until the US publication catches up to them.  

That being said, I did buy *Gardens of the Moon* in HC (despite the horrific cover-art) and will continue to buy the rest in HC as well (because I'm a HC junkie).

But the cover-art really might be hurting sales.  I personally can't stand it.  But I generally find that I like the UK cover art much more than the US anyways.  Much less cartoony and Darrell Sweet-ish.  I tend to appreciate the more understated look on my books.  Like the recent Bakker hit (thank God Tor didn't pick him up and screw up the Canadian cover-art) *The Darkness that Comes Before*.  Overlook did a good job of keeping that nice art when they published in America.  I wonder why Tor couldn't do that as well.


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## Liminal Syzygy (Oct 1, 2004)

Another vote against the cover art for the US books... I know the UK versions aren't ideal but the US aren't an improvement by any means. Sorry, neg.


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## Pants (Oct 1, 2004)

I just finished _Deadhouse Gates_ last night.  Good book and in some respects, very good, but I can't help but think that I might've thought it was better if every Erikson fan hadn't hyped its greatness to me over the last year and a half.  Seriously, near every fan claimed it was the best book written. Ever.  

It was good, don't get me wrong, but I can't help but think that the overabunance of spastic hype didn't get to me in some ways. 

Oh well, spoileristic comments to follow:


Spoiler



Icarium and Mappo were the stars of the book.  Two truly cool characters, especially Mappo.  Out of everyone in the book, I looked forward to reading about these two the most. Erikson really knocked these two out of the ballpark with an excellent mix of mystery, character development, and emotion.  Absolutely great in every way.

Felisin. Probably the worst part of the book. For the first 3/4 she's an annoying bitch - I'm talking Sansa annoying here.  But while Sansa grew to become one of the most heart-wrenching characters in aSoIaF (granted it took 3 books, compared to Erikson's 1, so it's probably not an apt comparison), Felisin just changes... in one scene.  I'd accept it if it had something to do with her becoming Sha'ik, but according to her... it didn't, not really at least.  Oh well, her final scene with Baudin was really good, it almost made me disregard the rest of the book where she was annoying.

The Chain of Dogs.  Good but probably the most overhyped part of a book ever. The end is excellent, but I couldn't help the detached feeling I felt throughout the rest of the plot-line. Erikson was tugging at my emotions, just in the wrong ways. Yeah, everything is terrible, people are starving and dying, the nobles are big, naive jackasses, Coltaine is doing the impossible. This would be good if Duiker and the soldiers didn't break out with philosophical ramblings every other paragraph. THAT was the bad part. I don't mind philosophy mixed in with my fantasy, if it is done well and it is kept in moderation, but Erikson just went overboard.

Despite that, the very end of the Chain of Dogs, from Coltaine's last stand to Duiker's 'death' is bloody amazing.  Very emotional and extremely well written.  I applaud this part.

When I first finished _Gardens of the Moon_ I thought that the introduction of the Azath House was way too deus ex machina.  I'm not sure if I really think that anymore, but I wonder if Erikson could have handled it better.  Dropping vague hints about the Deadhouse in Malaz would rectify the situation, since we wouldn't really know what a Deadhouse is, but when it finally shows up it would seem like less of a 'pulled out of nowhere' kind of thing.

Finally, some questions for those of you in the know. If any of these questions are answered with spoilers from later books, just tell me so:

1) DG mentions that Ammanas and Cotillion are Kellanved and Dancer Ascended. GotM and DG both mention that Quick Ben was once a High Priest of Shadow.  However, if I have my facts straight, Quick Ben joined the Bridgeburners during Kellanved's reign, so how could he have been a High Priest of Shadow if Ammanas didn't exist back then?  Unless he became a High Priest of Shadow after he joined the Bridgeburners, which then kills my whole point. So, did I spot an inconsistency or will this be addressed later on?

2) What exactly do the T'lan Imass look like? The descriptions are vague, but I've got this wacky idea that they vaguely resemble humans in form.



Yeah, it is kind of ranty, but I'm overall pleased with the book. I started _Memories of Ice_ last night and I'm looking forward to it. I hope the hype on MoI doesn't get to me like it did with DG.


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## jhallum (Oct 1, 2004)

*Answers.*



			
				Pants said:
			
		

> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> ...






Spoiler



1)I think this is something that will be addressed later on.  It is an inconsistency, but it is also possible that they killed an earlier pair of ascendants and stole their identities.  It has not been addressed through book 5.

2)The Imass are described in detail  in a later book.  They are humanoids, yes.  More Neanderthal in appearance, than human, but more human-like than any of the other races.



I won't ruin your enjoyment of Memories of Ice with any cheers or jeers for it, then, let it stand on its own merits.    

-jeremy


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## jhallum (Oct 1, 2004)

DrBloodmoney said:
			
		

> That being said, I did buy *Gardens of the Moon* in HC (despite the horrific cover-art) and will continue to buy the rest in HC as well (because I'm a HC junkie).
> 
> But the cover-art really might be hurting sales.  I personally can't stand it.  But I generally find that I like the UK cover art much more than the US anyways.  Much less cartoony and Darrell Sweet-ish.  I tend to appreciate the more understated look on my books.  Like the recent Bakker hit (thank God Tor didn't pick him up and screw up the Canadian cover-art) *The Darkness that Comes Before*.  Overlook did a good job of keeping that nice art when they published in America.  I wonder why Tor couldn't do that as well.





Agreed.  I imported all of the books from England, but I have the first two in paperback, and the last three in the big trade paperback.  I will probably buy the hardcover version, and read them, since the paperbacks are fragile.


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## Dakkareth (Oct 1, 2004)

Another Erikson thread. Nice  The Malazan Book of the Fallen is about the best series I've ever read, so keep that in mind, when considering my words 

Comparing Erikson's writing to other authors' I'd say, it's like G.R.R. Martin grown up in many aspects of that term. (Deleted long and inadequate try to explain this in detail. Maybe I'll try again later.)

I've seen the covers of the American releases and I concede, that it's singularily ugly. The UK covers (which incidentally are used on the German translations as well) of GotM, DHG and HoC are simply great and those for MoI and MT are at least not bad. I wonder, why they couldn't simply keep them ...

And while it would probably be cool to play Anomander Rake in an RPG, it's one of the most important points in the series, that in the end the mortals have grown up enough to beat ascendants, gods and dragons at their own game, that it is the mortals, who in their unfathomability (if that's a word) can throw a wrench into the machinations of the gods and who are usually responsible for great decisions - great powers balance each other out while the mortal factor is deciding. If the DM could live up to these principles, I wouldn't mind playing Fiddler when the others at the table play frighteningly Epic characters like Icarium, Mappo or Iscaral Pust. There's a special appeal to being overly aware of one's own limitedness and mortality and still being able to surprise (that at least) the others.



> Yes, it would be great to see such a product -- I would definitely buy it. But from the interview on Tor's web site it seems the warrens-driven magic system was purposely created to be vague and not easily translatable into an RPG.




I probably wouldn't be here on this board, if I wasn't someone to think of gaming system equivalents  Of course translating the entire system would be a major task, but combining as power point system with a sphere system like divine spells in 2e or even better Mage with restrictions on availability and caster level boni/mali would go a long way into the right direction 

I might actually try something like this in a PbB some day. Some day.

For now I'm hoping, the release for Bonehunters given on Amazon is a good one and that the novellas will be released in greater numbers soon


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## Anomander Rake (Oct 1, 2004)

*Erikson*

I believe the sales of _Gardens of the Moon_ will pick up in the US. I think in the UK, Erikson started off slowly, and about 2 years after _Gardens_ was published, he started to become much better know, and now 5 years on, he's well known in the UK and Canada with a growing fan base.

As Neg said, once the Mass Market Paperbacks are out, more people will be willing to try him out as they're much cheaper (to say he's a unknown author over there, and therefore are less likely to buy a Hard Cover), and until then, fans of his series need to continue spreading the word.

I'm glad Tor have been listening to the comments about the Book Cover, and that they are taking that into consideration for future marketing.


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## Pants (Oct 2, 2004)

jhallum said:
			
		

> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> 1)I think this is something that will be addressed later on.  It is an inconsistency, but it is also possible that they killed an earlier pair of ascendants and stole their identities.  It has not been addressed through book 5.





Spoiler



That can't be it, as someone (Fiddler I think) mentions that High House Shadow appeared for the first time after Kellanved and Dancer's supposed assassinations.



Oh well, not a big deal anyways. I just noticed it was odd.


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## Dakkareth (Oct 2, 2004)

> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> 1) DG mentions that Ammanas and Cotillion are Kellanved and Dancer Ascended. GotM and DG both mention that Quick Ben was once a High Priest of Shadow. However, if I have my facts straight, Quick Ben joined the Bridgeburners during Kellanved's reign, so how could he have been a High Priest of Shadow if Ammanas didn't exist back then? Unless he became a High Priest of Shadow after he joined the Bridgeburners, which then kills my whole point. So, did I spot an inconsistency or will this be addressed later on?




Not really a spoiler, but still: 



Spoiler



Before Kellanved and Dancer ascended, the realm of Shadow was empty. Priests of Shadow worshipped the empty throne and weren't pleased, when two newcomers spoiled their fun by seating themselves on the throne. (more details in HoC)


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## neg (Oct 14, 2004)

Anomander Rake said:
			
		

> I'm glad Tor have been listening to the comments about the Book Cover, and that they are taking that into consideration for future marketing.





And after having lunch with the director of marketing for Tor, I am EXTREMELY happy to report that Deadhouse Gates, US edition, will be using the *UK cover art.* 

I can't take credit for the change, but I am happy to report it. We did have a conversation about why the first book didn't take off in the marketplace.  I mentioned the cover art on the first book didn't seem to connect with fans, and expressed concerns about the cover of Deadhouse Gates.  She told me they were going to use the UK cover art for book two, which was news to me.

I have to praise Tor for doing everything right in trying to get Erikson to a wider audience with Book Two.  Trade paper original and UK cover art!

-neg


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## Pants (Oct 15, 2004)

neg said:
			
		

> And after having lunch with the director of marketing for Tor, I am EXTREMELY happy to report that Deadhouse Gates, US edition, will be using the *UK cover art.*
> 
> I can't take credit for the change, but I am happy to report it. We did have a conversation about why the first book didn't take off in the marketplace.  I mentioned the cover art on the first book didn't seem to connect with fans, and expressed concerns about the cover of Deadhouse Gates.  She told me they were going to use the UK cover art for book two, which was news to me.
> 
> ...



Wow, that's awesome! 
Unfortunately, that means I'll have to resist buying DG in HC for its gloriously awesome cover.


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## Cthulhu's Librarian (Oct 15, 2004)

neg said:
			
		

> And after having lunch with the director of marketing for Tor, I am EXTREMELY happy to report that Deadhouse Gates, US edition, will be using the *UK cover art.*
> 
> I can't take credit for the change, but I am happy to report it. We did have a conversation about why the first book didn't take off in the marketplace.  I mentioned the cover art on the first book didn't seem to connect with fans, and expressed concerns about the cover of Deadhouse Gates.  She told me they were going to use the UK cover art for book two, which was news to me.
> 
> I have to praise Tor for doing everything right in trying to get Erikson to a wider audience with Book Two.  Trade paper original and UK cover art!




Great! Thanks for the update!


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## Liminal Syzygy (Oct 15, 2004)

I'll be buying a copy as well in that case.


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## Clarkesworld Books (Oct 16, 2004)

Horray!  That's great news, thanks for passing it along!

 -Neil


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## GreyOne (Oct 19, 2004)

Cool, a Malazan thread.  I've been reading this series since it first came out, waiting anxiously year after year for the books.  It's the best epic fantasy series going, bar none.  Gritty, grim, and epic on a well, epic, scale.  I pimp this series wherever and whenever I go. 

Erikson is a great storyteller, and the world he's created is unbelievably deep and ancient.


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## Pants (Oct 22, 2004)

A question for all the big Malazan fans...

How exactly do you all pronounce many of the words?
T'lan Imass, Genabackis, K'Chain Che'Malle, D'ivers, Forkrul Assail (I'm positive I butchered this name), and Jaghut  to be exact.

I've read that the apostrophe that appears in many names is supposed to be pronounced as a glottal stop. However, even after reading what a glottal stop is, I still have no idea how to pronounce it.  So, I've pretty much muddled my way through the pronunciations and have come up with what sounds best/coolest:

Genabackis - I pronounce it with a hard G. The rest is pretty self-evident.
T'lan Imass - Tilaan *I*maas (I as in D*i*fference)
K'Chain Che'Malle - K(uh)Chain Chay'Mahl
D'ivers - D*i*vers (I as in D*i*fference)
Forkrul Assail - Forkrool Assail
Jaghut - Ja*g*oot (Hard G).

Anyone else have any ideas?


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## barsoomcore (Oct 23, 2004)

tuh-LAN eh-MASS
kuh-CHAIN chay-MAHL
dye-VERS (soft s -- not "diverse")
zhag-HOOT
BRIDGE BURNers


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## Pants (Oct 23, 2004)

barsoomcore said:
			
		

> BRIDGE BURNers



Damn, that one always gave me trouble...


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## Tanager (Oct 25, 2004)

thu-Lan ee-Mass
kuh-CHAIN cheh-MAHL 
Jen-ah-bak-is
dee-Ver ( as in Fench for many or diverse)
Ya-gut (no real reason for the 'soft' J other than i like the way it sounds better)




edited because there's only one F in French


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## Dakkareth (Oct 26, 2004)

I pronounce Jaghut more like 'Jack-hut', but otherwise barsoomcore's proposals are quite close to mine.

BTW, do any of you frequent the official boards at http://malazan.com/6/ubb.x ? It makes for quite an eye-opener, what details a couple of hundred other people notice, that you don't ... Of course this being Erikson there's a lot to be found


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## Efjay (Oct 27, 2004)

*Question about Gardens*

Glad I found this forum. I'm a little more than 3/4 of the way through the book but for some reason I remain confused as to why Hairlock began working with the Bridgeburners. Considering his and their actions later on, it seems unlikely that they would or need to work together. Is it more complicated than they both felt that they would be betrayed?


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## barsoomcore (Oct 27, 2004)

Your answers will be far more readily found on the Malazan discussion forums (link listed above). Hairlock is a mean and slippery and evil little bastard, and there's no telling what sort of nastiness he had planned for anyone foolish enough to work with him.

Quick Ben, of course, believes that HE is meaner, slipperier, more evil, and most importantly SMARTER than ANYONE, so he was willing to work with a monster like Hairlock.

But for definitive answers on all things Malazan, go to their boards. Every detail is illuminated, I promise you.


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## Dakkareth (Oct 29, 2004)

I'd say, there are two major reasons: 1. Hairlock doesn't want to die and QB is just about the only one, who has mastered soul-shifting (well, Tattersail does try, but that doesn't count), so he made a deal with him. As result, he is magically bound to obey QB (wait for it ). 2. Hairlock also hates Tayschrenn with passion and this being a chance to stab him from behind, figuratively speaking ...

barsoomcore: So you do frequent the board there?


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## mmu1 (Oct 29, 2004)

So I finally finished reading through _Gardens of the Moon_, and I liked it enough to order the other three books for Amazon.

Although I have to say, it's good to hear that his writing gets better as things move along, because the first book, while loaded with interesting characters and great depictions of high magic at work, does border on incoherent at times.


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## Liminal Syzygy (Oct 29, 2004)

Hate to tell you mmu1, but there are five total books out now so you missed one.


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## mmu1 (Oct 29, 2004)

Cordo said:
			
		

> Hate to tell you mmu1, but there are five total books out now so you missed one.




Nope, didn't miss anything... Just decided not to order the one that's currently selling for $20+ (as opposed to $9-$11 for the other three) just yet - for all I know, I might lose interest with the series.


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## Pants (Oct 29, 2004)

Cordo said:
			
		

> Hate to tell you mmu1, but there are five total books out now so you missed one.



I didn't order _Midnight Tides_ either.
There are only a few authors that I would risk buying a HC unseen and, at the time, Erikson wasn't one of them.


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## Dakkareth (Oct 29, 2004)

The Malazan boards are down. Looks bad.  

And yes, Gardens of the Moon can be hard to see through at times. You have to understand, it was originally written 10 years before the rest of the books and also contains a number of small continuity errors (mostly pertaining to the exact timeline). It becomes much clearer when reading it again after having read the other books, though.


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## mmu1 (Oct 30, 2004)

BTW, unless it becomes apparent by reading the next books, or it'd involve major spoilers, can someone tell me why the first one is called "Gardens of the Moon"?


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## Dakkareth (Oct 30, 2004)

'Gardens of the Moon' most likely refers to Moon's Spawn, the floating fortress of the Andii. Pale and later Darujhistan can be considered its 'garden' at times and as that's, where the conflicts of the book take place ... Granted, it's a little obscure, more so than the following titles, but it seems to be the general consensus.



> The Malazan boards are down. Looks bad.



It's back up! Time to catch up ...


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## myrdden (Nov 1, 2004)

I just finished reading "House of Chains".  What was everybody's (who read the book) opinion?


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## barsoomcore (Nov 1, 2004)

I thought House of Chains was a bit of a misstep, frankly. It was REALLY dense, and lacked the emotional impact of Memories of Ice or Deadhouse Gates.  The Toblakai was a great character, and it gave a very new view of the T'lan Imass, but the ending just didn't smack me with the big stick of "Holy Crap" that the previous two books had.

Still very, very good, however.


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## Clarkesworld Books (Nov 2, 2004)

*cover*

Well, we've received the cover images for Deadhouse Gates.  UK cover with the US fonts.  You can get it out on my site: Deadhouse Gates US hardcover.  

I still can't believe that they switched covers.  That's just too cool for words.

By the way, we're also running a contest.  Everyone that orders DG is eligible to be one of two people who will get their copy for free.  <contest>

  -Neil


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## Liminal Syzygy (Nov 2, 2004)

Regarding the title of "Gardens of the Moon", I could be mistaken but doesn't one of the poems mention the "gardens of the moon"? I forget the exact context.


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## myrdden (Nov 2, 2004)

barsoomcore said:
			
		

> I thought House of Chains was a bit of a misstep, frankly. It was REALLY dense, and lacked the emotional impact of Memories of Ice or Deadhouse Gates.  The Toblakai was a great character, and it gave a very new view of the T'lan Imass, but the ending just didn't smack me with the big stick of "Holy Crap" that the previous two books had.
> 
> Still very, very good, however.




That's pretty much how I felt about the ending as well.  I liked it, but it didn't have the intensity like the previous  two books did.  Personally I cannot get into Karsa's character and keep wishing he gets killed off soon (a wish I realize is pretty much hopeless).


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## Onos T'oolan (Nov 24, 2004)

I think "all" the UK covers are great; I also hope that Tor sticks with using them for the rest of the series. Barring that they should just pick one artist and stick with him/her, rather than flip-flopping all over the place with different artists/styles with each title - there should be some consistency after all.

 I think any attempt to put "identifiable characters on the covers" is doomed. No artist could ever graphically depict a character from these novels in a way that would satisfy even a small majority of readers - everyone's imagination is unique.

 I also think that it's precisely because the UK versions _don't_ attempt to depict close-ups of characters that they are successful. When you focus on one or two characters (which in itself is ridiculous considering the large cast of equally important characters in each book) you lose the 'epic' feel of the books' content. 

 These books aren't small personal stories about a small group of characters; these books are about epic events spanning hundreds of thousands of years, acted out by a _very_ large cast of characters.

  Just my humble $0.02 for my first post


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## myrdden (Nov 24, 2004)

Onos T'oolan said:
			
		

> Just my humble $0.02 for my first post




And a fine first post it was.

Welcome!


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## Onos T'oolan (Nov 24, 2004)

myrdden said:
			
		

> Welcome!



Thanks 

 Regarding House of Chains: I think of the four books up to that point, HOC was the weakest. Pacing/flow was a bit off compared to the previous novels. 

 I particularly was not crazy about Karsa Orlong -- didn't hate him, just found him a little annoying. I think if I had encountered him in another series/novel I would've liked him, but he just doesn't fit into MBOTF IMO; too typical of the 'Conan'-mold of barbarian-type characters.

 For one, I think he's just too powerful - inexplicably so. Secondly, he seems to break some of the 'rules' that have been laid out so far, but without really explaining how eg. his imperviousness to magic - he defeats elder warrens like Tellan, but some squad mage is able to bind him using a spell designed to capture denrabi 

  On the other hand I really liked the Onrack/Trull Sengar sequences, and I always like all the Bridgeburner story lines.

  Still a great book -- it's just that Erikson is so good I can't help holding him to a higher standard


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## myrdden (Nov 24, 2004)

Onos T'oolan said:
			
		

> Thanks
> 
> Regarding House of Chains: I think of the four books up to that point, HOC was the weakest. Pacing/flow was a bit off compared to the previous novels.
> 
> ...




I agree that HOC wasn't quite as good as the others, but the next book _Midnight Tides_ picks right back up.  I'm eagerly waiting the next installment.


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## barsoomcore (Nov 24, 2004)

About Karsa Orlong: First off, he's a Thelomen Toblakai, and we don't really know what the heck THAT means at this stage, but they're CLEARLY forces to be reckoned with. Far more powerful than any human being would be, obviously. Plus he's all full of otataral goodness, and so far the best we can say about that is that it's awfully unpredictable. Remember Rallick Nom? (It was Nom, wasn't it, what smeared the otataral all over himself?)

And we don't see any real evidence that he's impervious or invulnerable to magical effects -- the denrabi-catching spell was getting slowly destroyed by Orlong, and he certainly would have broken free before too long.

He's just really, really tough in the same way that Icarium is. I guess them Thelomen Toblakai are just built tough.


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## Pants (Nov 25, 2004)

I'm in the middle of HoC right now and I'm very much enjoying it.  Karsa... isn't my favorite character, but I'm interested in seeing where his story goes.

The whole Tiste Edur/Tiste Liosan/Nascent thing interests me not and is pretty much the ONLY storyline that I have almost 0 actual interest in at this point.  That may change though...


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## Alratan (Nov 25, 2004)

I have to add, that whilst Steven Erikson, is generally an excellent witer of fantasy in almost all its aspects, he is... not the best at female characterisation.


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## barsoomcore (Nov 25, 2004)

I've heard this before and am not sure where it comes from. There's a plethora of female characters I find compelling and believable -- Tattersail, Stonny, Felisen (sp), that Tiste Andii woman Whiskeyjack hooked up with whose name I can't recall, Kilava, that hilarious barbarian woman who got pregnant by Kruppe -- there's a great variety, I find, some heroic, some not so much, just like the boys.

Somebody told me they couldn't find Tattersail believable because she's fat but guys think she's hot and nobody thinks fat girls are hot. I did not have a ready reply to that statement.


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## myrdden (Nov 26, 2004)

Alratan said:
			
		

> I have to add, that whilst Steven Erikson, is generally an excellent witer of fantasy in almost all its aspects, he is... not the best at female characterisation.




I am curious...what do you mean by this.

Please expand.


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## Onos T'oolan (Nov 28, 2004)

Alratan said:
			
		

> I have to add, that whilst Steven Erikson, is generally an excellent witer of fantasy in almost all its aspects, he is... not the best at female characterisation.



I too have heard this on more than one occasion, but the people who say this never really elaborate ... what is it about his depictions that seem flawed to you? Can you provide an example of a writer/book/character that would be an example of 'good' female characterization?

 Personally I find Erikson's female characters are varied and believable. MBOTF women experience a broader range of emotions, experiences, professions, etc. than those in other books I've read, and they play meaningful roles. 

 There are a lot of geeked-out sci-fi/fantasy writers who clearly have 'unrealistic' ideas about women and male/female dynamics, and their characterizations often feel forced. Many 'famous' fantasy authors, like Robert Jordan, for example, do a much poorer job with female characters and male/female interactions IMHO.

 /runs for his life from rabid Jordan-ites


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## Onos T'oolan (Nov 28, 2004)

barsoomcore said:
			
		

> Somebody told me they couldn't find Tattersail believable because she's fat but guys think she's hot and nobody thinks fat girls are hot. I did not have a ready reply to that statement.



You only have to look at the artwork from our own past to realize that what we would call 'big' or 'fat' women were at one time greatly admired


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## barsoomcore (Nov 29, 2004)

Jane Fonda ain't got a motor in the back of her Honda


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## Pants (Dec 3, 2004)

I just finished _House of Chains_ and I have to say... I enjoyed it immensely.  While it did have some slow parts, I thought the characters of Karsa and Onrack were pretty interesting and well developed, though I could certainly see why Karsa might not be enjoyed (the all-powerful, rules-breaking barbarian could get really old, really fast...).  

The ending was great and overall this book proves to me that Erikson is an absolute master at worldcrafting, dare I say better than Tolkien.


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## neg (Dec 18, 2004)

*Gardens of the Moon*

Just wanted to let everyone know that Gardens of the Moon is now officially published in mass market.  I got my copies late this week and they should be hitting bookshelves this weekend, probably.

I say probably as it is the Christmas season and receiving rooms for bookstores are often not as efficient at this time of year.

So if you are looking for last minute stocking stuffers for the fantasy reader in your life, think Steven Erikson

Gardens of the Moon  ISBN 0765348780  $7.99

I will make a general post about this and see if the ENWorld Book Club takes a look at it...  

Enjoy-

Neg


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## barsoomcore (Dec 19, 2004)

That's "Officially published in mass market for _AMERICANS_." The rest of us have had the mass market paperback for four years now.

But yes, it is a fine, fine book that deserves every ounce of praise heaped upon it. Hurrah for getting the Americans caught up!


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