# Most powerful feat ever?



## Doctor DM (Nov 6, 2007)

In your opinion, what is the strongest, most overpowered, broken feat out there?

Or just the best feat ever. Or feat combos.

I think Greenbound Summoning takes the cake. Just on the fact that your summoned creatures can cast wall of thorns. PLUS all the sick bonuses they get?

I don't know how it got published...

As for a more traditional great feat, I like the simple power attack with a two handed weapon. 2 for 1? Awesome! The damage can get ugly.


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## Creamsteak (Nov 6, 2007)

*WIN [General]*
You win.
*Benefit:* You win.
*Special:* You can take this feat multiple times, each time you win.


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## Doctor DM (Nov 6, 2007)

Creamsteak said:
			
		

> *WIN [General]*
> You win.
> *Benefit:* You win.
> *Special:* You can take this feat multiple times, each time you win.




haha, oh I'm taking that next level for sure. What book is that in?


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## Nifft (Nov 6, 2007)

*Leadership.*

Cheers, -- N


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## Creamsteak (Nov 6, 2007)

Doctor DM said:
			
		

> haha, oh I'm taking that next level for sure. What book is that in?



I belive it was in the mongoose "book of feats", whatever it was called, in the appendix. I'm paraphrasing it though. I believe the actual version had a whole lot of "explanation" that really spoils the whole joke.


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## Hypersmurf (Nov 6, 2007)

Doctor DM said:
			
		

> I don't know how it got published...




The original author weighed in at one point, and said that what he wrote isn't what got published.

He originally wrote it as a metamagic feat with a level adjustment.  I can't recall exactly what it was, but it's a bit more reasonable - let's say it was a +3 level adjustment.  Now you have to make a choice between taking one round to summon a Dire Wolverine, or two rounds to summon a Greenbound Wolf.

As opposed to the [General] feat it ended up as, where it's a no-brainer, no-cost option every single time.

-Hyp.


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## LonePaladin (Nov 6, 2007)

I remember seeing one in a third-party sourcebook focusing on drow — what was notable was the cover art and interior illustrations showed drow as having bright blue skin and red hair. In that book was a feat that essentially gave its possessor a +1 or +2 on *everything* that involved die-rolls. It had one prerequisite, which was phrased along the lines of having the favorable attention of some deity or other... which, when translated into "at the table" terms, means one thing: the DM likes you.

An absolutely horrible book. The thoroughly munchkinized feat didn't help matters.


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## SelcSilverhand (Nov 6, 2007)

Not broken, but in the best feat ever catagory:

Improved Initiative.

Making your move before the BBEG can do his thing usually means the difference between being the hero, or rerolling a new char.


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## Lopke_Quasath (Nov 6, 2007)

To add to and edit Hypersmurf's post:

It was intended to be a metamagic feat with a spell slot +2 levels higher.
Somehow it got published without it.

I saw the original post somewhere yesterday. I'll look for the link.

Here it is: http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=2195156&postcount=46


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## Savage Wombat (Nov 6, 2007)

Wasn't there an old thread about feats that look really powerful, up until the last sentence that completely ruins it for you?


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## s-dub (Nov 6, 2007)

*Combat Brute*

If I read it correctly, it could allow a Frenzied Berzerker to make 2 handed power attacks at a 5 dmg/1 attack ration =P


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## Deset Gled (Nov 6, 2007)

"Most powerful" can mean different things depending on the build, and how much work you're willing to put in to exploit it.  Greenbound Summoning is probably the simplest feat to abuse.  Leadership can give you a lot more power, but will require effort on the part of the player (and help from the DM).

Improved Combat Expertise, from 3.0's Sword and Fist (and a number of other sources), removed the +/- 5 restriction from Combat Expertise (now just Expertise).  Not amazingly broken in the "kill them and take their stuff" way, but by far the most powerful feat there is if you're trying to maximize AC.  Combine with All Power Attack All the Time for best results.

The unerrataed 3.0 Quicker than the Eye (from Song and Silence) granted you a free standard action if you threatened an enemy that was denied their dex bonus to AC.  This meant that if you carried a blind kobold in your backpack, you got the effect of a continual 3.0 Haste.  Very nasty.  It was later changed to only grant a free attack against the enemy who was denied their dex bonus.

Divine Metamagic from Complete Divine can be extremely powerful if you work for it.  It allows a cleric to burn turning attempts to use metamagic feats instead of using a higher spell slot.  The problem is that it doesn't limit the maximum spell level equivalent to the maximum spell level you can cast, which opens up access to things like Persistent Divine Might.  There were a number of psionic feats that had this problem as well, but IIRC they were all fixed in errata.


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## Drowbane (Nov 6, 2007)

Brew's top 5 most powerful (some may be broken) feats~

5) Natural Spell - every Druid has this feat.  And why not? Werebear form & nukage? Sweet!
4) Power Attack - every Str-focused character in the game has this feat, and for good reason.
3) Greenbound Summoning - Uber Druidic Summoning for no penalty other than one feat slot and having to refactor the stats on all of your summons? Deal!
2) Arcane Thesis & Divine Metamagic - tied for 2nd - by Raw, these feats both allow you to cast meta-spells way over 9th level.  
1) Leadership (PHB) / Undead Leadership (Libris Mortis)- The Leaderships only take the #1 slot cause your cohort could very well have all of these feats... not to mention that a second character for free is pretty powerful.


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## Zurai (Nov 6, 2007)

Spell Stowaway: Time Stop.


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## Mistwell (Nov 6, 2007)

Divine Metamagic.

One of the few things in the game that I think is actually broken as written, though a houserule fix is quite easy to make it fine (just the same language they used in Metamagic Song, which is something like "You cannot use this feat to add metamagic feats that would make the spell's effective level higher than the highest level of spell that you can cast normally").


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## brehobit (Nov 6, 2007)

_Greenbound _is clearly the winner IMO.  Nothing comes even close.  It puts the popular _augment summoning_ to shame in a big way, and has fewer prereqs.  
_Divine metamagic_ can be huge, but as long as you remove persistent spell it's not _that_ overpowering at levels I play (1-7 or so). (Oh no nightsticks either).  Powerful, but not in the greenbound range that I've seen. 
_Leadership _can be huge if the DM let's the player design the follower AND the player abuses that.  
_Natural spell_ and _power attack _are both very powerful, and I find natural spell a bit overwhelming.  I don't really have a problem with power attack, although I'd prefer that the damage multiplier be 1.5x rather than 2x for two handed weapons.
The weapon mastery feats are also very powerful.  Very very powerful.
So order assuming a DM imposes "reasonable" order on leadership: Greenbound summoning, Natural spell, weapon mastery, power attack, divine metamagic, leadership.


Can anyone show me an abuse of divine metamagic that is really unreasonable without nightsticks or persistent spell?  Sure casting 2 spells a day as a swift action is quite powerful, but you are talking about needing 2 feats to pull that off and 8 turning attempts (so probably a third feat and a CHR of 14+).  Eh.


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## Bad Paper (Nov 6, 2007)

Drowbane said:
			
		

> 4) Power Attack - every Str-focused character in the game has this feat, and for good reason.



meh.  My barbarian has it, but now that I picked up the Book of Nine Swords, none of the characters I designed (six so far) has taken Power Attack.


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## Nail (Nov 6, 2007)

Bad Paper said:
			
		

> meh.  My barbarian has it, but now that I picked up the Book of Nine Swords, none of the characters I designed (six so far) has taken Power Attack.





...that probably says more about ToB:Bo9S than it does about Power Attack....


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## Ed Gentry (Nov 6, 2007)

Where (what book) can Greenbound be found?


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## Stratovarius (Nov 6, 2007)

Ed Gentry said:
			
		

> Where (what book) can Greenbound be found?




Lost Empires of Faerun.


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## Quartz (Nov 6, 2007)

Multispell can be pretty sick. Especially if you're an Ultimate Magus sing Augmented Spellcasting and can start off with a Quickened Time Stop, because after the Time Stop expires, you can cast 2 more spells, or more if you've taken Multispell multiple times. Think of following up your Quickened Time Stop with Quickened Disintegrate and then an Intensified Meteor Swarm.


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## mvincent (Nov 6, 2007)

Nifft said:
			
		

> *Leadership.*



Agreed.

I also like Craft Wondrous Item: basically burn one level worth of XP (which you eventually get back) to say, give you and your party an extra 125,000 gp worth of gear. Since gear isn't used when calculating CR, you continue levelling much more easily.


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## s-dub (Nov 6, 2007)

Speaking of nightsticks, where do I find those?


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## 3d6 (Nov 6, 2007)

Leadership.


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## Thurbane (Nov 6, 2007)

Pounce
Divine Metamagic
Sudden Metamagic


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## HeavenShallBurn (Nov 7, 2007)

Metamorphic Transfer-it's the feat that makes Pun-Pun possible nuff said.


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## Storme (Nov 7, 2007)

To me, the most powerful bar none is twin...or Energy Add Mixture (but that takes 2 feats to get) with Wand Mastery.

Especially if you're an Artificer.

When you can do 30d6 at level 9, and one-shot just about anything the DM throws at your party...I'm thinking a bit much (Scorching Ray CL 11 which is 3 beams for 5d6 ea 2x is 30d6).

Or don't make an Artificer and give Metamagic Spell Trigger (from Complete Mage), wand mastery and twin to your wizard or druid and simply add twin to your wand (or Staff if you want...its based on your CL after all).  If you can afford the approximately 400g per shot, you cannot be stopped.

In any case, DOUBLE anything is pretty huge.  I'd say TWO monsters you summon is better than ONE greenbound of the same type any day.

This is all assuming of course, that you aren't talking about Epic.  Since Epic is basically, "Acceptable Godliness," anything within it's context can be considered "most powerful," and therefore quite redundanct in this topic.  Hehe.


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## UltimaGabe (Nov 7, 2007)

Storme said:
			
		

> In any case, DOUBLE anything is pretty huge.  I'd say TWO monsters you summon is better than ONE greenbound of the same type any day.




Erm... do you know what Greenbound does? I'm tempted to say you must not, since I don't think you'd make that claim if you did. 

That being said, double anything is OFTEN pretty huge. Not always. It depends on the cost, really- and when it comes to damage, twinning spells is often lackluster except with a specific few spells (cough Scorching Ray ftw cough).


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## Storme (Nov 7, 2007)

UltimaGabe said:
			
		

> Erm... do you know what Greenbound does? I'm tempted to say you must not, since I don't think you'd make that claim if you did.
> 
> That being said, double anything is OFTEN pretty huge. Not always. It depends on the cost, really- and when it comes to damage, twinning spells is often lackluster except with a specific few spells (cough Scorching Ray ftw cough).





Yep.  I sure do.

2 Huge Air Elementals are going to take the fire giant apart much faster and more effectively than one Greenbound Elemental who can cast wall of thorns, 10 DR, fast healing, etc.  Better yet, have two huge air elementals fight one greenborn air elemental.  Grab some dice, a pencil and paper, and run a simulated battle between them and get back to us.

Any questions?

In a "Best in show" contest, the greenborn would win.  In a fight?  I'll take two standards.  It's a numbers game, bro.


Worst thing about Twin Scorching Ray (or even Orb of Acid) Wands though is....getting HIT by one.  As I often point out...if you can do it...so can the NPCs.


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## Stalker0 (Nov 7, 2007)

Nothing can produce more raw power than leadership. Leadership gets you any other feats you want, assuming your dm allows it that way.

That's the interesting thing about leadership, depending on how the dm rules it, it can be the single strongest feat in the game or the absolute weakest*

*Absolute weakest with the exception of the 3.0 eagle claw attack, which has the honor of being the absolute weakest feat in 3e's history.


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## Nifft (Nov 7, 2007)

Stalker0 said:
			
		

> *Absolute weakest with the exception of the 3.0 eagle claw attack, which has the honor of being the absolute weakest feat in 3e's history.



 Weapon Specialization: Net?

Cheers, -- N


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## Quartz (Nov 7, 2007)

Storme said:
			
		

> When you can do 30d6 at level 9, and one-shot just about anything the DM throws at your party...I'm thinking a bit much (Scorching Ray CL 11 which is 3 beams for 5d6 ea 2x is 30d6).




How do you get CL 11 at L9?

At 11th level, you're using Empowered and Twinned, so 6x 6d6 is 36d6 (126 HP average) anyway, each of which requires a ranged touch attack, and each of which is subject to DR. SR, and other spell effects. Minor Globe of Invulnerability would really ruin your day.


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## Elethiomel (Nov 7, 2007)

Storme said:
			
		

> Yep.  I sure do.
> 
> 2 Huge Air Elementals are going to take the fire giant apart much faster and more effectively than one Greenbound Elemental who can cast wall of thorns, 10 DR, fast healing, etc.  Better yet, have two huge air elementals fight one greenborn air elemental.  Grab some dice, a pencil and paper, and run a simulated battle between them and get back to us.
> 
> Any questions?



How do you reconcile the fact that Greenbound Summoning doesn't increase spell level with the supposed overpoweredness of things-that-double-other-things like Twin Ray? One greenbound huge air elemental vs two of whatever elementals you get out of a monster summoning however many levels lower the spell would have to be to be "twinnable" into the same slot - very different.


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## Archimedes314 (Nov 7, 2007)

Stormguard Warrior. I had a twink-gasm when I read it for the first time.

Also, I don't really think Leadership should be included in this discussion, it is simply too good. Typically in these kind of theoretical discussions you need to assume a highly permissive DM (any semi-competent DM without serious self-confidence issues is going to ban-hammer a lot of the things in this thread, thus effectively rendering their power moot), and with a highly permissive DM, Leadership, and a high diplomacy modifier I once literally took over a campaign world. 'Nuff said I think.


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## Goldmoon (Nov 7, 2007)

Doctor DM said:
			
		

> In your opinion, what is the strongest, most overpowered, broken feat out there?
> 
> 
> As for a more traditional great feat, I like the simple power attack with a two handed weapon. 2 for 1? Awesome! The damage can get ugly.




Heh, try it while mounted and charging, then add in Spirited charge. Power attack for 5 x2 for two handed =10 x3 for charging =30. thats 6x what you put into it. If you fugure that you get a +2 bouns to hit for charging then you really only give up 3 points of attack for 30 points of damage. Thats 10 to 1 Power attack damage!!!


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## Zurai (Nov 7, 2007)

Goldmoon said:
			
		

> Heh, try it while mounted and charging, then add in Spirited charge. Power attack for 5 x2 for two handed =10 x3 for charging =30. thats 6x what you put into it. If you fugure that you get a +2 bouns to hit for charging then you really only give up 3 points of attack for 30 points of damage. Thats 10 to 1 Power attack damage!!!




Multipliers do not work that way. In D&D, a doubling of a doubling is a x3 bonus, not a x4. x2 * x3 = x4, not x6. Basically subtract 1 from the multiplier of every multiplier past the first and add them together. x2 * x2 * x2 = x4, not x8, etc.


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## Archimedes314 (Nov 7, 2007)

Zurai said:
			
		

> Multipliers do not work that way. In D&D, a doubling of a doubling is a x3 bonus, not a x4. x2 * x3 = x4, not x6. Basically subtract 1 from the multiplier of every multiplier past the first and add them together. x2 * x2 * x2 = x4, not x8, etc.




You are correct, but the multipliers are being applied to different quantities. Wielding a two-handed weapon multiplies your power attack bonus damage by two. This is then added to your total damage, which is multiplied by three (excepting variable damage like sneak attack). Now if he also had, say, a valorous weapon, then the multiplier to his total damage would be just x4, not x6.


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## Bad Paper (Nov 7, 2007)

Nail said:
			
		

> ...that probably says more about ToB:Bo9S than it does about Power Attack....



yes, probably something like, "Finally a way to wiggle out from under the tyranny of Power Attack..."


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## Nifft (Nov 7, 2007)

Bad Paper said:
			
		

> yes, probably something like, "Finally a way to wiggle out from under the tyranny of Power Attack..."



 QFT. 

Also phrased as, "Wait, my melee dude has *choices*?!"

Cheers, -- N


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## Black Knight Irios (Nov 7, 2007)

Try Robilar's Gambit...funny things can happen...


> Also phrased as, "Wait, my melee dude has choices?!"




Yes, exactly as many as your BAB...!


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## Nifft (Nov 8, 2007)

Black Knight Irios said:
			
		

> Yes, exactly as many as your BAB...!



 You're setting up a "one-dimensional" joke here, aren't you?

Sorry, -- N


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## Nifft (Nov 8, 2007)

Quartz said:
			
		

> How do you get CL 11 at L9?
> 
> At 11th level, you're using Empowered and Twinned, so 6x 6d6 is 36d6 (126 HP average) anyway, each of which requires a ranged touch attack, and each of which is subject to DR. SR, and other spell effects. Minor Globe of Invulnerability would really ruin your day.



 1/ Spells aren't subject to DR unless they say they are.

2/ That's not how Twin Spell works; you'd need Split Ray instead.

3/ Split Ray only gives you +1 ray.

4/ Arcane Thesis raises your caster level (for your one special spell) by +2.

Cheers, -- N


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## Cbas_10 (Nov 8, 2007)

Vow of Poverty.

I have to say that my games are not populated by "Christmas Tree Characters", and I run a relatively low-magic Greyhawk setting (meaning PCs have roughly half of the standard/average accumulated wealth, compared to the DMG's estimates/suggestions).  In a game where a DM does not throw tons of magic items out there like candy....the Vow vastly overpowers anything else.

A lot of you mentioned Leadership and the fact that having a cohort is so powerful.  Well, yeah...if a player is able to custom-tailor a cohort to perfectly compliment the PC...it would certainly be quite powerful.  Thus, I'd imagine, is the reason that the DMG specifically states that the DM determines any details beyond the basics: race, class, and alignment.  Besides, there are plenty of other details and headaches given to the PC with this feat to make anyone at least hesitate before taking this feat.


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## Dice4Hire (Nov 8, 2007)

Stalker0 said:
			
		

> *Absolute weakest with the exception of the 3.0 eagle claw attack, which has the honor of being the absolute weakest feat in 3e's history.




I don't know. Improved Initiative is way up there.


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## Quartz (Nov 8, 2007)

Nifft said:
			
		

> 1/ Spells aren't subject to DR unless they say they are.




Sorry, that was a typo for ER - energy resistance.



> 4/ Arcane Thesis raises your caster level (for your one special spell) by +2.




D'oh! :slaphead:


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## Nail (Nov 8, 2007)

Nifft said:
			
		

> QFT.
> 
> Also phrased as, "Wait, my melee dude has *choices*?!"
> 
> Cheers, -- N



The issue was "most powerful", not "most choices".

The fact that ToB:Bo9S has more choices and is more powerful just adds more fuel to the fire.


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## Zurai (Nov 8, 2007)

Nail said:
			
		

> The fact that ToB:Bo9S has more choices and is more powerful just adds more fuel to the fire.




Prove that it is more powerful, since you say that it is a _fact_.


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## jolt (Nov 8, 2007)

More powerful is not the same thing as too powerful.  Is ToB: Bo9S too powerful?  Eh.  Is it more powerful than Core 3 Books only?  Absolutely. If you read ToB: Bo9S and don't come away with that then you've skipped something.  Is that "more power" needed?  Maybe/ maybe not, but that wasn't the question.

jolt


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## Zurai (Nov 8, 2007)

jolt said:
			
		

> More powerful is not the same thing as too powerful.  Is ToB: Bo9S too powerful?  Eh.  Is it more powerful than Core 3 Books only?  Absolutely. If you read ToB: Bo9S and don't come away with that then you've skipped something.  Is that "more power" needed?  Maybe/ maybe not, but that wasn't the question.
> 
> jolt




I reject that Bo9S is even remotely *close* to being _as_ powerful as any sorcerer, wizard, druid, or cleric. let alone _*more*_ powerful. They're roughly as powerful as a power-attacking 2H barbarian - less powerful most levels, more powerful early on.


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## Creamsteak (Nov 8, 2007)

This is a topic for another thread but:

It's pretty hard to beat the druid and cleric on the powermeter. Bo9S does seem to make paladins, monks, and fighters take a look though.


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## Nail (Nov 8, 2007)

Zurai said:
			
		

> I reject that Bo9S is even remotely *close* to being _as_ powerful as any sorcerer, wizard, druid, or cleric.



If comparing classes was the subject of this thread, I'd take you up on that.

Most powerful feat?  Different thread.


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## Zurai (Nov 8, 2007)

Ah yes, the patented "I'll come into the thread, make unprovable claims and say they're fact, and then say 'this isn't the right thread to be discussing this' when challenged" defense. Touche.


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## Nifft (Nov 8, 2007)

Nail said:
			
		

> The issue was "most powerful", not "most choices".
> 
> The fact that ToB:Bo9S has more choices and is more powerful just adds more fuel to the fire.



 Natural Spell eats Bo9S alive.
And it's not even my choice for best feat.

Cheers, -- N


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## Thurbane (Nov 8, 2007)

Zurai said:
			
		

> Ah yes, the patented "I'll come into the thread, make unprovable claims and say they're fact, and then say 'this isn't the right thread to be discussing this' when challenged" defense. Touche.



Ah yes, the patented "make sarcastic reply to draw out offtopic argument" reposte. En garde!


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## Nail (Nov 9, 2007)

Zurai said:
			
		

> Ah yes, the patented "I'll come into the thread, make unprovable claims and say they're fact, and then say 'this isn't the right thread to be discussing this' when challenged" defense. Touche.



As opposed to the "Deny, without facts" provocation?  I'll pass, thanks.

[EDIT]Thurbane beat me to it!


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## Nail (Nov 9, 2007)

Nifft said:
			
		

> Natural Spell eats Bo9S alive.
> And it's not even my choice for best feat.
> 
> Cheers, -- N



Huh.

We've played with Natural Spell ("the required feat for druids!"), but always with house rules modifying it to a full round action, and everyone can tell the animal is casting a spell.  So although in theory I can see how the feat is very good, we've not seen that in (admittedly modified) practice.

You sure Natural Spell is more powerful than all of what ToB:Bo9S has to offer?  Really?  YMMV, I guess.


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## Slaved (Nov 9, 2007)

At the moment I would say the most powerful feat of any that someone has in the group I am in is Raging Luck.

Going from a small pool per level to a small pool per day plus the other pool as a backup is incredible!


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## Slaved (Nov 9, 2007)

How is saying that the Book of Nine Swords gives options for melee characters other than power attack the same as saying that the Book of Nine Swords has feats which are more powerful than power attack?


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## Nifft (Nov 9, 2007)

Nail said:
			
		

> You sure Natural Spell is more powerful than all of what ToB:Bo9S has to offer?  Really?  YMMV, I guess.



 Really.

Druids can be more powerful than all the stuff in ToB, and that's before splatbooks.

ToB is great because it offers reasonable power to non-casters. Casters are still more powerful, but not by as much. A 20th level Warblade or Crusader can stand next to a 20th level Cleric or Druid and feel like he's actually contributing to the combat.

Cheers, -- N


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## Nifft (Nov 9, 2007)

Slaved said:
			
		

> At the moment I would say the most powerful feat of any that someone has in the group I am in is Raging Luck.
> 
> Going from a small pool per level to a small pool per day plus the other pool as a backup is incredible!



 There are some fantastic ways to break this feat if you can cast while Raging.

Cheers, -- N


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## blargney the second (Nov 9, 2007)

I've got a character with Combat Intuition, and it's a surprisingly potent feat.  Knowledge is power.  (Knowledge Devotion is another great one along those lines.)


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## s-dub (Nov 9, 2007)

Nifft said:
			
		

> There are some fantastic ways to break this feat if you can cast while Raging.
> 
> Cheers, -- N




The only way I can think of being able to do this is to be a rage mage....what other ways can you think of?


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## Nifft (Nov 9, 2007)

s-dub said:
			
		

> The only way I can think of being able to do this is to be a rage mage....what other ways can you think of?



 That's the only way I can think of, too. But I'm not an Eberron expert by any means.

Anyway, the trick I read about is to also get the feat that allows you to substitute an Action Point for a charge on a device (like a Wand or Staff). Together with a wand of that spell which gives you one action point every round, you get all-day free use of expensive charged items.

But that's two feats, a spell, and a setting. 

Cheers, -- N


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## Alzrius (Nov 9, 2007)

Stand back fellas, the strongest feat you'll ever see is right here. From the pages of The Practical Enchanter comes:



> A feat for superbeings only
> 
> *In The Spotlight*
> You become a whirlwind of action when you're the center of attention.
> ...




The wording is a bit odd, in that "an action" seems to be a full round's worth of actions. Just imagine what you could do with gaining another round's worth of action every time you're attacked.

I think this is a clear winner for the most powerful feat ever.


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## Creamsteak (Nov 9, 2007)

I so want to use that feat on my next BBEG, though I anticipate dice being thrown at my head.


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## Nifft (Nov 9, 2007)

Creamsteak said:
			
		

> I so want to use that feat on my next BBEG, though I anticipate dice being thrown at my head.



 I had the same thought.

PC: "I flurry!"
DM: "Oh, gooooooooooood..." 

Cheers, -- N


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## Slaved (Nov 9, 2007)

Nifft said:
			
		

> That's the only way I can think of, too. But I'm not an Eberron expert by any means.
> 
> Anyway, the trick I read about is to also get the feat that allows you to substitute an Action Point for a charge on a device (like a Wand or Staff). Together with a wand of that spell which gives you one action point every round, you get all-day free use of expensive charged items.
> 
> ...




What spell gives you an action point each round and which book is it in??


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## Stalker0 (Nov 9, 2007)

Nifft said:
			
		

> Weapon Specialization: Net?
> 
> Cheers, -- N




Bah!! That's a prereq feat for the also lame Weapon Supremacy: Net. But that feat actually has use, and since WS: Net is a prereq, its innately more useful than eagle claw attack


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## Nifft (Nov 9, 2007)

Stalker0 said:
			
		

> Bah!! That's a prereq feat for the also lame Weapon Supremacy: Net. But that feat actually has use, and since WS: Net is a prereq, its innately more useful than eagle claw attack



 D'oh! Good point!

PHB-II totally breaks Weapon Spec (Net), which becomes *infinitely* more powerful thanks to that supplement.

Okay, how about Skill Focus (Speak Language)?

Cheers, -- N


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## Nifft (Nov 9, 2007)

Slaved said:
			
		

> What spell gives you an action point each round and which book is it in??



 An Eberron book (which I don't have...)

Sorry, -- N


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## MarauderX (Nov 10, 2007)

SelcSilverhand said:
			
		

> Not broken, but in the best feat ever catagory:
> 
> Improved Initiative.




Nah, you end up missing out on all the party buffs when you're surprised.  I'd vote this one as the most overrated.


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## MarauderX (Nov 10, 2007)

Archimedes314 said:
			
		

> Also, I don't really think Leadership should be included in this discussion, it is simply too good. Typically in these kind of theoretical discussions you need to assume a highly permissive DM (any semi-competent DM without serious self-confidence issues is going to ban-hammer a lot of the things in this thread, thus effectively rendering their power moot), and with a highly permissive DM, Leadership, and a high diplomacy modifier I once literally took over a campaign world. 'Nuff said I think.




PCs die; so do retainers that are lower level.  Think about the BBEGs and their army of minions and close crew of higher-level guys... now think of an evil party out to ruin the PC's day while they are too wrapped up in other tasks... and the bad guys get to level up on the hundreds of retainers too... making them evenly matched after decimating those under the Leadership feat.  
To me the Leadership feat is an opportunity, a vast open door in which spies, do-gooders, PC-wanna-bes and all sorts of riffraff attach themselves to the PC's good reputation... and drag it down like an anchor if not maintained.  Don't get me wrong, the feat is great for a PC - followers can take care of all sorts of small tasks such as eradicating goblins or dire rats, but when it comes to the big tasks the PC's have to get it done themselves.


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## Archimedes314 (Nov 11, 2007)

MarauderX said:
			
		

> PCs die; so do retainers that are lower level.  Think about the BBEGs and their army of minions and close crew of higher-level guys... now think of an evil party out to ruin the PC's day while they are too wrapped up in other tasks... and the bad guys get to level up on the hundreds of retainers too... making them evenly matched after decimating those under the Leadership feat.
> To me the Leadership feat is an opportunity, a vast open door in which spies, do-gooders, PC-wanna-bes and all sorts of riffraff attach themselves to the PC's good reputation... and drag it down like an anchor if not maintained.  Don't get me wrong, the feat is great for a PC - followers can take care of all sorts of small tasks such as eradicating goblins or dire rats, but when it comes to the big tasks the PC's have to get it done themselves.




Not trying to be insulting or anything, but this doesn't have anything to do with what I posted. You are talking about how you (an actual DM) limit leadership in play. My whole point was that when you are talking about the "most powerful feat ever" it is necessarily a theoretical discussion, and in such a discussion you can't make assumptions about how the DM is going to limit whatever that feat is. No two DMs are alike and they very likely will rule different ways. So you assume a sort of tabula rasa DM who doesn't put restrictions (beyond those explicitly spelled out in the rules) on your character, and with such a DM Leadership is just absurdly powerful (and no I'm not talking about a DM who lets you design your cohort down to the skill points, though that is very powerful in its own right).


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## Muaythaidaddy (Nov 12, 2007)

Natural Spell, Improved Initiative, Leadership, Greenbound Summoning, Divine Metamagic, Power Attack......... all of these are very good to take.


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## Elemmakil (Nov 12, 2007)

Elethiomel said:
			
		

> One greenbound huge air elemental vs two of whatever elementals you get out of a monster summoning however many levels lower the spell would have to be to be "twinnable" into the same slot - very different.




IIRC Greenbound Summoning cannot be applied to elementals because the "Greenbound" template doesn't apply to elementals.  I would place Rashemi Elemental Summoning higher after level 11, perhaps level 13.  By level 17, it is way ahead.

However, neither of those two feats should exist.


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## Kat' (Nov 13, 2007)

Three feats I've come to really adore are those making underpowered base classes worth playing again:
- Swift Hunter: makes it worth playing a nearly straight ranger or nearly straight scout (Sco4/Rgr16 or Rgr4/Sco16)
- Daring Outlaw: makes it worth playing a nearly straight Swashbuckler (Rog4/Swb16)
- Battle Blessing: makes it OMGYESYESGIVEMEMOREBABY worth playing a straight Paladin.

Other stuff I like:
- Drakkensted Mount / Draconic Aura / Double Draconic Aura: yeah, Special Mounts have Int > 3, so they do gain feats when their HD increase. Drakkensted are Dragonblood animals, thus allowing them to take draconic feats. Groovy !
- Chain Spell. Worth creating whole builds around it. I mean... Chain AT Destruction? Chain Dispel Magic? Chain Phantasmal Killer? Chain Charm Monster, which is thousand times better than Mass Charm Monster because it is not limited by HD (and BTW, it's one level lower)? Also to be used in combination with the Archmage's Arcane Reach for instant party-buffing.
- Aligned Attack: definitely worth it for a Psychic Warrior
- Knockback: Funny combination with Combat Brute, the reason why I like Goliath Fighters
- Melee Weapon Mastery: +2 unnamed to attack and damage with every melee weapon with a given damage type? Oh yes
- Pierce Magical Concealment: excellent mage-killer
- Shield Ward, an excellent choice for sword-and-board types


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## Thanee (Nov 13, 2007)

Deset Gled said:
			
		

> The unerrataed 3.0 Quicker than the Eye (from Song and Silence)...




Expert Tactician, from Sword and Fist. 

Bye
Thanee


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## Inconsequenti-AL (Nov 13, 2007)

Saw a 3rd party book with Ranged Power Attack for archers - that was potentially unceccesarily silly. (Mongoose, I think?)


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## Squire James (Nov 13, 2007)

I remember reading a feat from "Quintessential Elf" (I think) that allowed someone to threaten all within 0 to 20 feet with a bow.  Prerequisites?  Elf and Point Blank Shot.  A level 1 elf fighter can get it.  A little weaker than some feats I've seen here, but none of those are fully usable at level 1...


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## Virtue (Nov 16, 2007)

Doctor DM said:
			
		

> In your opinion, what is the strongest, most overpowered, broken feat out there?
> 
> Or just the best feat ever. Or feat combos.
> 
> ...





What book is Greenbound Summoning in?


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## Ruslanchik (Nov 16, 2007)

Seriously, Vow of Poverty has got to be at the top of the list.  

This feat actually gives you bonus feats.  'Nuff said.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Nov 16, 2007)

Nifft said:
			
		

> D'oh! Good point!
> 
> PHB-II totally breaks Weapon Spec (Net), which becomes *infinitely* more powerful thanks to that supplement.
> 
> ...



I am not sure if I'd really would want to count the "subselections" of feats here. But then, there is no way Eagle Claw Attack could not be the weakest feat ever.  

And I love and hate Melee Weapon Mastery - it is  very good feat - finally - for a fighter to take. But only if you happen to be a fighter that has focused on a specific weapon. Which I dislike, because all you ever do is damage. You don't trip, disarm, grapple, sunder, bullrush or do any other interesting combat options, because all your resources were spent on mastering a single weapon. (And what happens if you find a cool magic weapon of a different type then your favored one? Sell it, like the dozens +1 weapons you don't need any more?)


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## Merlin the Tuna (Nov 16, 2007)

Ruslanchik said:
			
		

> Seriously, Vow of Poverty has got to be at the top of the list.
> 
> This feat actually gives you bonus feats.  'Nuff said.



Vow of Poverty is a trap.  In a game that generally follows WBL guidelines, it hurts more than it helps.  Numbers have been crunched on the subject.


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## Nifft (Nov 16, 2007)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> I am not sure if I'd really would want to count the "subselections" of feats here. But then, there is no way Eagle Claw Attack could not be the weakest feat ever.



 I seem to recall *Hear the Unseen* allows you to use the Listen skill to do what it could do anyway, but at a higher DC (!). Does Eagle Claw Attack actually worsen your ability to sunder? (Been a while since I looked at Sword & Fist.)

Anyway: in Core, I'm going to stick with *Skill Focus (Speak Language)*. It's 100% totally useless.

- - -

Best feat I still think is *Leadership*. We all know that the current thinking is that combat actions are true power. Leadership gets you extra combat actions. The fact that it also gets you a free Cleric is secondary, but juicy.

Cheers, -- N


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## Mistwell (Nov 16, 2007)

Words of Creation will kick your silly feats butt all week and twice on Sunday.


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## brehobit (Nov 16, 2007)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> Words of Creation will kick your silly feats butt all week and twice on Sunday.



It and Greenbound are similar, but even so, I'd give the (slight) nod to Greenbound.  This assumes the "doubling" of the bard's effect happens _before_ other modifiers.  Otherwise, WoC wins hands down if optimized nicely.

Good point!

Mark


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## MarauderX (Nov 19, 2007)

Archimedes314 said:
			
		

> Not trying to be insulting or anything, but this doesn't have anything to do with what I posted. You are talking about how you (an actual DM) limit leadership in play. My whole point was that when you are talking about the "most powerful feat ever" it is necessarily a theoretical discussion, and in such a discussion you can't make assumptions about how the DM is going to limit whatever that feat is. No two DMs are alike and they very likely will rule different ways. So you assume a sort of tabula rasa DM who doesn't put restrictions (beyond those explicitly spelled out in the rules) on your character, and with such a DM Leadership is just absurdly powerful (and no I'm not talking about a DM who lets you design your cohort down to the skill points, though that is very powerful in its own right).




Hey, no problem, I guess you can re-DM any feat.  Take Great Throw from Oriental Adventures and throw yourself a party!


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## glass (Nov 19, 2007)

Archimedes314 said:
			
		

> You are correct, but the multipliers are being applied to different quantities. Wielding a two-handed weapon multiplies your power attack bonus damage by two.



Power Attack doesn't multiply anything. Used two handed, it adds two points of damage for each point of attack bonus you give up.

_EDIT: Apart from that, you are spot on, though._


glass.


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## Brace Cormaeril (Nov 19, 2007)

Deset Gled said:
			
		

> Improved Combat Expertise, from 3.0's Sword and Fist (and a number of other sources), removed the +/- 5 restriction from Combat Expertise (now just Expertise).  Not amazingly broken in the "kill them and take their stuff" way, but by far the most powerful feat there is if you're trying to maximize AC.  Combine with All Power Attack All the Time for best results.





You can subtract from your attack roll for expertise and power attack simultaeneously?


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## Brace Cormaeril (Nov 19, 2007)

I like Power Attack->Leap Attack->Deep Impact->Battle Jump
Throw in Raptor School, Leap of the Heavens and Mental Leap.


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## Hypersmurf (Nov 19, 2007)

Brace Cormaeril said:
			
		

> You can subtract from your attack roll for expertise and power attack simultaeneously?




You can take a penalty to your attack rolls up to your BAB with Power Attack.  You can take a penalty to your attack rolls up to your BAB (max 5) with Combat Expertise.

So if you have a BAB of +4, there's nothing stopping you taking a -4 penalty for Power Attack, and a -4 penalty for Combat Expertise, for a total of a -8 penalty to attack rolls, a +4 to AC, and a +4 (or +8) to damage rolls.

-Hyp.


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## blargney the second (Nov 19, 2007)

The above would most certainly not fly in any of our games.


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## boolean (Nov 20, 2007)

blargney the second said:
			
		

> The above would most certainly not fly in any of our games.



Would you disallow using both feats simultaneously? Or would you allow using both, but limit the total penalty by the character's BAB?


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## blargney the second (Nov 20, 2007)

boolean said:
			
		

> Or would you allow using both, but limit the total penalty by the character's BAB?



This one.


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## Kat' (Nov 20, 2007)

Why, in fact? I mean, the guy suffers a penalty equal to up to twice his BAB for those benefits; why shouldn't he be able to do it?



> I like Power Attack->Leap Attack->Deep Impact->Battle Jump
> Throw in Raptor School, Leap of the Heavens and Mental Leap.




Replace Deep Impact by Shock Trooper, throw in Combat Brute and be a Goliath with Knockback (Goliath's racial ability more or less duplicates Leap of the Heavens).


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## Thurbane (Nov 20, 2007)

Brace Cormaeril said:
			
		

> You can subtract from your attack roll for expertise and power attack simultaeneously?



It's a nice trick in the ToEE PC game once you get Fragarach, the sword that NEVER misses.


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## Stratovarius (Nov 20, 2007)

Inconsequenti-AL said:
			
		

> Saw a 3rd party book with Ranged Power Attack for archers - that was potentially unceccesarily silly. (Mongoose, I think?)




The Peerless Archer prestige class from the Silver Marches book grants this. It's called Power Shot. Level 2 of the class, maybe. Fairly obscure book though.


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## Elemmakil (Nov 20, 2007)

Stratovarius said:
			
		

> The Peerless Archer prestige class from the Silver Marches book grants this. It's called Power Shot. Level 2 of the class, maybe. Fairly obscure book though.



Oh, that's not obscure on the WotC optimization boards.  I don't know how much it is still used (especially if Silver Marches is a 3.0 book; I don't recall if it is), but it was standard issue in most optimized archer builds.

They could be pretty broken, too.  It wasn't really that ability that pushed them over the edge, but it was pretty powerful all the same.


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## KingCrab (Nov 21, 2007)

Merlin the Tuna said:
			
		

> Vow of Poverty is a trap.  In a game that generally follows WBL guidelines, it hurts more than it helps.  Numbers have been crunched on the subject.




It depends on what you're playing.  For most classes, yes that is the case.  For some classes (say a wildshape focused druid who generally can't use items in wildshape anyway) it does make sense.


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## KingCrab (Nov 21, 2007)

Meele Weapon Mastery is pretty strong since it adds to your bonuses for the weapon you're focused in as well.  Greenbound Summoning as written is broken, though if edited to be used as the feat was intended it seems fair.  Initiate of Nature is nice for druids who want to turn and rebuke plants and animals the way clerics do with undead.


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## Kat' (Nov 21, 2007)

KingCrab said:
			
		

> It depends on what you're playing.  For most classes, yes that is the case.  For some classes (say a wildshape focused druid who generally can't use items in wildshape anyway) it does make sense.




I see VoP as a roleplaying flair. It is powerful at low levels, not so powerful at mid-levels and underpowered at high levels where gear counterbalances pretty much anything. And even this is DM-dependant; in low-magic settings, VoP will likely makemore of a difference than if you play per DMG WPL. As for the feats you gain... yeah, nice, but none too awesome. It's a style... ever considered playing a VoP cleric? A VoP fighter?

An VoP is not "interesting" for concepts who do not depend on gear (wildshapers, incorporeals...): it is POWERGAMING.


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## KingCrab (Nov 21, 2007)

Kat' said:
			
		

> I see VoP as a roleplaying flair. It is powerful at low levels, not so powerful at mid-levels and underpowered at high levels where gear counterbalances pretty much anything. And even this is DM-dependant; in low-magic settings, VoP will likely makemore of a difference than if you play per DMG WPL. As for the feats you gain... yeah, nice, but none too awesome. It's a style... ever considered playing a VoP cleric? A VoP fighter?




Nope.  It doesn't work for most classes.  I admit.



			
				Kat' said:
			
		

> An VoP is not "interesting" for concepts who do not depend on gear (wildshapers, incorporeals...): it is POWERGAMING.




I just like to optimize things, maybe I took too much math as an undergraduate.

To be fair, Wildshapers can try to get around the magical item limitations by other means.  There are clasps you can buy that let you sort of take one item along with you for the transformation.  There are other possibilities.  VoP is just one way to try to get around the magic item limitation.


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## Tetsubo (Nov 21, 2007)

Kat' said:
			
		

> I see VoP as a roleplaying flair. It is powerful at low levels, not so powerful at mid-levels and underpowered at high levels where gear counterbalances pretty much anything. And even this is DM-dependant; in low-magic settings, VoP will likely makemore of a difference than if you play per DMG WPL. As for the feats you gain... yeah, nice, but none too awesome. It's a style... ever considered playing a VoP cleric? A VoP fighter?
> 
> An VoP is not "interesting" for concepts who do not depend on gear (wildshapers, incorporeals...): it is POWERGAMING.




You say that like it's a bad thing...

A Druid with VoP and the variant Shapeshift class ability (PHB II) would rock...


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## Rackhir (Nov 21, 2007)

Stratovarius said:
			
		

> The Peerless Archer prestige class from the Silver Marches book grants this. It's called Power Shot. Level 2 of the class, maybe. Fairly obscure book though.




Even if a DM permitted it's use in 3.5, Power Shot isn't quite as bad as it was in 3.0. Since you don't have Bow and Arrow Bonuses stacking. Which could be another +5 to hit and thus making the Power Shot more usable for hitting a medium to high AC.


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## Achan hiArusa (Nov 23, 2007)

The Defiling Feat in Dragon #351, when used with Noonan's rules for defiling in Dragon #315 allows 20th level mages to cast 19th level spells.  Now Divine Metamagic can match that, but you have to put more work into it with Extra Turning Feats to get to that point.  And the wizard could do this 8 times a day before he would become a _t'liz_ by assuming the taint.


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## Cbas_10 (Nov 24, 2007)

Kat' said:
			
		

> I see VoP as a roleplaying flair. It is powerful at low levels, not so powerful at mid-levels and underpowered at high levels where gear counterbalances pretty much anything. And even this is DM-dependant; in low-magic settings, VoP will likely makemore of a difference than if you play per DMG WPL. As for the feats you gain... yeah, nice, but none too awesome. It's a style... ever considered playing a VoP cleric? A VoP fighter?




Considering that a VoP character can use simple non-magical weapons and they can carry a spell component pouch, that opens possibilities.  There is a short blurb about VoP characters borrowing expensive components and an option for using XP in exchange for gp costs of expensive components, nothing states or even implies that Poverty characters _cannot_ carry expensive components if they are strictly that: spell components.

I know one or more of you stated that "numbers have been crunched" and that it falls apart if the DM adheres to wealth by level numbers, but I still don't think that VoP characters fall that far behind (if at all).  By 20th level, they are considered to have the equivalent of _+5_ weapons that are also good-aligned for DR (on any weapon they use...not just a single item), +10 armor bonus with no Dex/check penalties and better than the _Invulnerability_ feature, _Ring of Sustenance_ (trade the sleeping bit for not needing to breathe), _Ring of Protection +3_, _Amulet of Natural Armor +2_, _Cloak of Resistance +3_, _Ring of Mind Shielding_ (3rd ring, btw), _Ring of Universal Elemental Resistance_ (not Epic, but detailed in the ELH) (4th ring, now), _Ring of Freedom of Movement_ (5th ring, but I think other items do the same thing), _Ring of Regeneration_ (and...6th ring), _Gem of Seeing_ (that does not need to be held and is always on), and finally...four ability boost items (+2, +4, +6, and +8 _(Epic)_).

Even if we were to break all the prices down and compare them to character equivalent value....compare 760,000 of wealth at 20th level to the 640,000 gp value item that would provide the +8 bonus to an ability score and a _+5/+5 Quarterstaff_ for 100,000 gp (to say nothing of additional weapons the character may have or use).  And then keep going with the other items.

All that from two feats (including the Sacred Vow prerequisite).  Oh yeah...those two feats get you a potential 10 BONUS feats from the Exalted list.  Wow.

Straight-classing provides a number of possibilities, including a few that are normally "equipment-dependant."  Special mounts are still possible with VoP, so Paladins with those 10 free exalted feats are quite nice.  Almost any of the core spellcasters work very well, but wizards wouldn't, because of needing to keep a spellbook.  Start into prestige classes, and things really get crazy: mystic theurge, duelist, eldrich knight, and...well...about anything that does not require preparing spells from a spellbook.

(I didn't do this long post to be argumentative about the point....just got on a roll, analyzing the feat on this lazy Saturday afternoon)


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