# Game of Thrones theory



## invokethehojo (Apr 27, 2011)

It's been a few years since I read the Song of Ice and Fire books 1-4, but one thing I always thought was weird was that they kept alluding to the fact that summer lasted for a generation or longer, and when winter came it could go on for years.  I found it odd that after 4 books they didn't touch on this more, especially since I think one of the starks might have said "winter is coming" oh, i don't know, once or twice.  

I just watched the intro to episode two, and by the way I love the style, and how they use the intro to show not only the world, but the parts that matter in that episode.  What I found odd was that it kept showing something like a sun, a ball of fire, with metal rings floating around it.  Then, when it showed the world, as the camera moved you could tell the surface was concave.  Could they maybe be telling us something, that the world of this series is inside out, with the sun at the center and the shell of the planet surrounds it at distance.  As if the sun were the nucleus and the worlds surface functioned as the elecrons.  This was similar to one of the worlds in the 'deathgate cylce' books by margret weis and tracy hickman.  If so maybe this has something to do with the whole long summer and winter thing.

Just an idea.  Any thoughts?


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## Cor Azer (Apr 27, 2011)

Certainly a thought, but it seems too science fiction for a series more so going with subtle magic.

I wouldn't put too much stock in it; I suspect the opening credits were more to give a sense of "game" as opposed to a plot hint.


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## jonesy (Apr 27, 2011)

It's pretty much what came to my mind too when I realized how they were showing it. But whether it has any meaning depends on how much Martin was consulted in the matter. It might be just an artistic thing.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7L2PVdrb_8"]Game of Thrones Episode 1 Opening - YouTube[/ame]

But then again, imagine getting spoilers for the books from the tv series.


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## El Mahdi (Apr 27, 2011)

I think it's just supposed to look like a spherical astrolabe or armillary - just to give it a borderline medieval/renaissance feel or appearance. I think the concave appearance of the map/continent is just a byproduct of attempting to show the entire continent and each city in perspective with eachother. I don't think it's meant to imply that the world is concave. I think it's just meant as a cool/artsy video version of the map at the beginning of the books - and placed at the beginning of the show for the same purpose that the map is at the beginning of the books.

Also, I don't think that the long seasons are supposed to be inherently magical. I think the people of the world see them as magical, same as Dragons and White Walkers, but I think Martin has some very unmagical reasons in the (untold) backstory as to why this happens (such as the world having a very different orbit from ours with a differently structured solar system; and white walkers actually being some kind of alien race that can only live in the cold, etc.). The people of the world have decidedly real superstitions and beliefs in magic and the supernatural, but Martin writes the world as rather objectively un-magical.

It would be cool though, if it was in some kind of "hollow world" type setting. But, then you'd have to explain how there's night and day, and stars at night.


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## Rhun (Apr 27, 2011)

They certainly make it look like it is a Dyson Shell. But then all winter would have to be explained as magic, since all of the surface area would receive the exact same amount of output from the star. I would guess it is an artistic thing as well.


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## mac1504 (Apr 28, 2011)

*World inside a sphere*

Here's a really interesting interview with the artist that created the opening credits:

Secrets Behind 'Game of Thrones' Opening Credits (Video) - Hollywood Reporter


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## invokethehojo (Apr 29, 2011)

El Mahdi said:


> Also, I don't think that the long seasons are supposed to be inherently magical. I think the people of the world see them as magical, same as Dragons and White Walkers, but I think Martin has some very unmagical reasons in the (untold) backstory as to why this happens (such as the world having a very different orbit from ours with a differently structured solar system; and white walkers actually being some kind of alien race that can only live in the cold, etc.).




Ya it does seem like that.  What I find very strange is that it seems like when summer and winter happen and their durations are not predictable.  I'm having a hard time imagining how a culture that seems confident saying "the wall has protected us for 8000 years" doesn't have an accurate almanac.  Unless the seasons really are random, which would seem to be unnatrural.  But who knows



Rhun said:


> They certainly make it look like it is a Dyson Shell. But then all winter would have to be explained as magic, since all of the surface area would receive the exact same amount of output from the star. I would guess it is an artistic thing as well.




I don't know what a dyson shell is, but my thought is that if the world were hollow around a sun, it might be shaped like a football, so some parts are further from the sun.  Or maybe the sun isn't stuck in the center, but moves, or waxes and wanes, which might explain the randomness of the seasons.

I in no way think I've got the show figured out, I just enjoy making up little theories like this, it's what makes me like these kinds of shows.  My wierd theory for lost from the beginning was that if you could understand the large asian themed tatoo on jacks left arm you would know the basic plot of the entire show.


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## Rhun (Apr 29, 2011)

invokethehojo said:


> I don't know what a dyson shell is




A dyson shell is exactly what you were thinking...it is like a hollow sphere around a sun, and people would conceivably live on the inside of the hollow sphere. Of course, another side to this would be that there would be no night, unless there were satellites orbiting closer to the sun that would block out its light.



invokethehojo said:


> , but my thought is that if the world were hollow around a sun, it might be shaped like a football, so some parts are further from the sun.  Or maybe the sun isn't stuck in the center, but moves, or waxes and wanes, which might explain the randomness of the seasons.




Good thoughts. I'm not sure it would work from a "laws of science" perspective, but it is fantasy, and with magic anything is possible.


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## El Mahdi (Apr 29, 2011)

invokethehojo said:


> I don't know what a dyson shell is...




Then for your viewing pleasure: Wikipedia:_Dyson_Sphere, Memory-Alpha:_Dyson_Sphere. 

It was also featured in a _Star Trek: The Next Generation_ episode (the episode is also noted for having Scotty/James Doohan, from the Original Series): Relics.

Even if there were some sort of satellite within the sphere that could generate a day/night cycle (by passing between an observer and the central sun), there still wouldn't be any stars at night.  The world of the Game of Thrones has a normal nightime sky, complete with stars and constellations.  Also, the sun wouldn't "travel" across the sky from east to west (or travel at all, in any direction).  It would always appear to any observer at any point within the sphere, as if the sun was always at 12'noon, with transition from day to night appearing as some kind of eclipse (assuming there was a satellite).  There also wouldn't be any temperature/environmental difference between regions, like a cold North and a warm South (which Westeros does have).

The most likely conclusion is that Westeros is on a world orbiting a single sun, but is either in a much longer orbital period with a much more eliptical orbit than ours, or the star runs through some kind of cycle where it's output decreases periodically.


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## Moleculo (Apr 29, 2011)

On the Westeros wiki, it says:



> George R. R. Martin explicitly and more than once stated that the explanation of the Planet's climate will be revealed at the end of the series, so he cannot disclose any further details on the issue before that point. He also stated that the explanation will be magical in nature and will not involve any sci-fi elements.


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## Rhun (Apr 29, 2011)

Well, I guess that settles it!


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## invokethehojo (Apr 30, 2011)

Another thread dies at the feet of deft google-fu ;-(


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## El Mahdi (Apr 30, 2011)

Well that just changes my entire view of the story-world.  That means no dyson-sphere or ring-world, but it also means no natural reason like an elliptical orbit or a star with variable output.

Soooo...

I guess I'll just have to wait until I can read the last book...in 2025!


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## Starman (May 1, 2011)

I'm actually a little disappointed that Martin intends to explain this. Sometimes keeping things like this mysterious make the story more interesting.


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## Cor Azer (May 1, 2011)

Starman said:


> I'm actually a little disappointed that Martin intends to explain this. Sometimes keeping things like this mysterious make the story more interesting.




For some perhaps. The key for me - if it was going to be a science fiction explanation, the explanation needed to explain how the uneven seasons work. Unless the how then is central to one of the plots, then it doesn't really matter, and the uneven seasons are interesting background that would only need explaining if the audience required "proof" that it has a science fiction explanation.

However, with it being a magical or supernatural explanation, the how can be thrown out the window ("A Wizard Did It"), but then we get a much more interesting question of "why?" And, in my opinion, particularly in an epic series such as this, all why questions must be answered for a satisfactory ending.


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## Starman (May 1, 2011)

Cor Azer said:


> For some perhaps. The key for me - if it was going to be a science fiction explanation, the explanation needed to explain how the uneven seasons work. Unless the how then is central to one of the plots, then it doesn't really matter, and the uneven seasons are interesting background that would only need explaining if the audience required "proof" that it has a science fiction explanation.
> 
> However, with it being a magical or supernatural explanation, the how can be thrown out the window ("A Wizard Did It"), but then we get a much more interesting question of "why?" And, in my opinion, particularly in an epic series such as this, all why questions must be answered for a satisfactory ending.




Well, since I don't see it as being central to the story I'm content not having an answer for "how" or "why." I like it when stories leave some questions unanswered because it lets me fill in the blanks. 

This particular question ("why are the seasons out of balance?") has been fun to think about. I keep coming back to some ancient order of wizards back when magic was in full swing attempting to permanently rid the world of the Others by eliminating winter. Unfortunately, they only managed to knock the seasons out of whack.


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## invokethehojo (May 2, 2011)

I agree that explaining something like this with magic might not be as good as just leaving it to imagination, but not in this case.  Martin has done a great job of tying everything together, and something tells me he will fit this in nicely as well.  I have gotten the feel that since dragons have returned to the world magic is becoming more powerful or easier to tap into, also the others seem to be injured only by "dragon glass", and if the seasons are tied to this, then this might be a very earnest attempt by a writer to actually tie magic into a world in a somewhat believable way, instead of just saying, "ya, there is magic and dragons".  I will follow down that rabbit hole.


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## Starman (May 2, 2011)

I disagree because I see it as "Just the Way Things Are" and not "Crucial Plot Point."


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## Cor Azer (May 3, 2011)

Starman said:


> I disagree because I see it as "Just the Way Things Are" and not "Crucial Plot Point."




I don't recall if it was a throwaway line or something from one of the So Spake Martin Q&As, but I'm pretty sure there was a mention of the seasons being normal far in the past and only being unpredictable more "recently", with recently still being described as centuries if not millennia.

Thus, it's not strictly a "just the way things are" because they haven't always been this way.


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## Starman (May 3, 2011)

Cor Azer said:


> I don't recall if it was a throwaway line or something from one of the So Spake Martin Q&As, but I'm pretty sure there was a mention of the seasons being normal far in the past and only being unpredictable more "recently", with recently still being described as centuries if not millennia.
> 
> Thus, it's not strictly a "just the way things are" because they haven't always been this way.




I don't recall anything in the books, but it has been a few years since I've read them. If Martin was going to make it important, you'd think he'd have Old Nan or one of the Maesters mention the seasons being normal "back in the day" or something. 

If someone knows where this is referenced in the books or has a link to Martin talking about it, I'd like to see it. I've googled a bit, but only been able to find other people mentioning Martin saying something about it.


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## Raunalyn (May 3, 2011)

My theory of the seasons has to do with The Others (the White-walkers).

When they stir, or a few "wake up," there is a winter.

But, when several awaken, then a brutal winter comes. GRRM has alluded to this since the very first chapter of the series. With the Winter comes The Others. This brings about significant changes to, well...everything. And, if  you've kept up with the books, there are things moving into place that both forshadow this occurence and potentially oppose it (the Red Comet, the Red Priest, etc.)


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## El Mahdi (May 3, 2011)

Or is it the coming of Winter that allows the Others to re-appear (from wherever they are the rest of the time), rather than the Others bringing Winter with them...?


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