# Styles issues



## dcollins (Dec 1, 2003)

My machine doesn't seem to be handling the new "styles" in the messageboards very well.

Since the start of the weekend, the messageboards have been unbelievably slow on my machine -- as in, effectively locking up the whole system for several minutes when I load any forum or thread. Once I set the User CP option to "ENWorld Classic Style", then the issue immediately cleared up.

I'm running an older machine, Pentium I 233, Win 98, 32 MB RAM, IE 6.0.

In addition, I've got an older monitor that only runs in 640x480. With the new styles, the ENWorld logo collides over the banner ad space (the Classic style does not). That one I'm guessing you'll punt on, but I figured I'd point out what I'm seeing.


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## Morrus (Dec 1, 2003)

The styles can't cause slowdowns - they're just colours.  A black page isn't quicker to load than a white one or a purple one.

The slowdowns are connected to something else (which we haven't figured out yet!) - we're working on it, though!


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## Michael Morris (Dec 1, 2003)

dcollins said:
			
		

> My machine doesn't seem to be handling the new "styles" in the messageboards very well.
> 
> Since the start of the weekend, the messageboards have been unbelievably slow on my machine -- as in, effectively locking up the whole system for several minutes when I load any forum or thread. Once I set the User CP option to "ENWorld Classic Style", then the issue immediately cleared up.
> 
> ...




"Thank you for your concern. As you may be aware, technology has advanced significantly in the past 5 years, and with it, the state of things on the web. To fully experience all the new features that are presented on the page in question, you should use a *modern* web browser running on a machine able to operate it. If you are unwilling or unable to upgrade, a "classic" interface remains for your use, but lacks some of the features that modern technology allows us to produce."

Canned responses aside, I can feel myself getting snarky.  I know there are many legitimate reasons why folks can't run new systems, but come on.  A pentium 1??  I can go to a computer junk store and pick up a Pent III system at around $100.  Still, times can be tight.

What really gets under my skin are direct attacks I've received in private email over this linked directly to folks who combine a hatred for change with severe ignorance on how servers work. So to set the record straight...


There are 14,000+ users on this board.  90% of them are running systems 3 years or younger.  Of the remaining 10% around half of them are working with at least a Pentium II system capacle of running IE at 6.0 PROPERLY.
640x800 is an incredibly RARE resolution choice these days, mayber 1 in 200 browsers, maybe.
I could spend the next 10 years making sure the page works properly on every browser/OS/system out there and still not pull it off.  I am therefore forced to choose a cutoff point.  If your system is beneath the cut off, then I'm sorry.  The older styles will be retained for you, but they won't be upgraded.


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## BobROE (Dec 1, 2003)

Ok, I was having the same slowdown problem and switched to the ENWorld Classic style and it's back to normal speed.

I'm running a P4 2.4GHz, 512 RAM, and Windows XP with fully updated IE on a cable internet connection.

There's something about the new styles that seems to be causing the slow down.  This is in no way, shape, or form an attack on you, I'm just pointing out that the problems go away when you don't use the new style (or perhaps in the dropdown menu's because the classic style doesn't have them).


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## dcollins (Dec 1, 2003)

Okay, I wasn't going to respond but apparently I've unintentionally struck a nerve. I didn't think I was complaining, I wrote no email -- you'll notice I actually said "I'm guessing you'll punt on this", that is, I assumed this was not something you'd care to fix.

That being said, I'm actually a software engineer and a college computer science professor, so you probably don't have to lecture me about the current state of computer hardware. Part of a software upgrade cycle needs to be gathering and listening to user experiences on a variety of systems, and that's what I intended to help out with. If your plan is to cut off the bottom 10% of your users from conveniently accessing the site, then that is of course a legitimate business decision to make.

However, I visit a variety of websites and message forums, and all of them work perfectly fine with my existing equipment. I don't get 5-minute-long system lockups on any other bulletin board system. My objective analysis is that you've significantly pushed the requirements envelope on the new system.

I'm sure you've put a lot of hard work, many hours, and lots of brainpower into developing the new system. I know it can be hard to hear that people don't love your work as much you think they should. No one should be expecting you to jump up and make big alterations based on one person's experiences. However, I'll recommend that you take a deep breath, relax, and keep track of how many people are observing significant problems with the new system as of this weekend. It may possibly be more widespread, and more severe, than you expected. Take it easy, I've been in the same situation myself numerous times.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Dec 1, 2003)

As I mentioned in another thread, I had problems with the board until switching back to the Classic style. I'm on a Pentium 3, 256 RAM, Windows ME, IE 6.0. The only thing I can think that really caused the slowdown was that dropdown menu...


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## Lola (Dec 1, 2003)

I have IE 6, but I *haven't* had any appreciable slowdown since switching to a new style with dropdown menu. Just wanted to say that it's working for me, at least.

Actually, this is the fastest it's been working for me all day, and I just switched style about an hour ago. So for people with up to date browsers, mightn't it be a server issue?


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Dec 1, 2003)

Lola said:
			
		

> So for people with up to date browsers, mightn't it be a server issue?




Well, I'm testing the thing again and have switched the style back to the new thing with the drop down menus. Its back to being very slow again. Could it be how the drop down menu is done? I love it, but it just doesn't cooperate with this computer for some reason.


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## las (Dec 1, 2003)

well the holdy one works as well as the classic for me the others seam to slow me down for some reson. The other enworld standard one seams to slow me down the most.


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## Michael Morris (Dec 1, 2003)

The styles will be taken down until whatever is slowing the boards down is located and removed.


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## darkbard (Dec 1, 2003)

though the timing right now is precarious, i've just finished switching back and forth between the classic and new styles and found a significant speed-up with the classic style.  i'm running pentium III, 512, windows ME, IE 6 for what it's worth.  oh, and i too love the new format but not at the expense of hanging the system.  perhaps they're unrelated but for the moment i'm going classic.


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## Mark (Dec 1, 2003)

darkbard said:
			
		

> though the timing right now is precarious, i've just finished switching back and forth between the classic and new styles and found a significant speed-up with the classic style.




I've notioced the exact same thing and would request that EN World Classic Style be made into the DEFAULT style for the boards.  I've switched back and forth several times and despite theories to the contrary it does seem to be making a difference.


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## Hypersmurf (Dec 1, 2003)

Mark said:
			
		

> I've notioced the exact same thing...




Likewise.

Classic Style's helped.

Even when the other optional styles were disabled, though, I was still crawling on the Default, until I hunted down the "Change Styles" procedure to switch the dropdowns off...

-Hyp.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Dec 1, 2003)

Mark said:
			
		

> I've notioced the exact same thing and would request that EN World Classic Style be made into the DEFAULT style for the boards.  I've switched back and forth several times and despite theories to the contrary it does seem to be making a difference.



Ditto, much faster on the old style.  In fact I have no slowdown at all.  


I'll up date after my watch.  (Basically another 8 hours of surfing)


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## Mark (Dec 1, 2003)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Ditto, much faster on the old style.  In fact I have no slowdown at all.
> 
> 
> I'll up date after my watch.  (Basically another 8 hours of surfing)




If you can switch between styles midway (as well as at the end) through your watch and see how it is working that'd be great, IMO.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Dec 1, 2003)

*test 1*



			
				Mark said:
			
		

> If you can switch between styles midway (as well as at the end) through your watch and see how it is working that'd be great, IMO.



Sure right now, I'm on a T1 plus connection, but it's not dedicated to me.  (download.com rates me at: 207.8 kbps)

To load this page over again with only a change in style

On the Classic: 3 seconds (give or take human error)

On the new theme: 7 to 8 secounds (give or take human error)

Note: both pages where refreshed and given a chance to cache anything they needed too.

OS Info (None of this will change during the night)
NT 4.0 SP6
384 MB RAM

Broswer- Internet Explorer
6.0.2800.1106 
128 bit encryption


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## Brother Shatterstone (Dec 1, 2003)

*907 Gmt*

On the Classic: 8 seconds (give or take human error) 

On the new theme: 13 secounds (give or take human error)


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## talinthas (Dec 1, 2003)

no need to be a donkey, MM.  I'm running a p4 2.8 gHz with 512 megs of ram, and the site was super slow for me too, until i switched back to the classic style.

Seriously dude, why the rush to implement all this stuff, when the site doesnt need it?  The old adage is true here- what aint broke, dont fix.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Dec 1, 2003)

*1115 Gmt*

On the Classic: 8 seconds (give or take human error) 

On the new theme: 10 secounds (give or take human error)

download.com rates me at: 216.7 kbps


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## Buttercup (Dec 1, 2003)

I really like the look of the new styles.  And I can imagine just how much work Michael put into them.  EN World has had slow-down problems before, so it didn't occur to me that the holiday style I was using might be the problem, but after reading this thread, I switched back to classic, and now all is well again.

I'm running a P4 with 1.8gig with 512 ram, XP and a DSL connection.  Oh, and the very latest version of IE6.  

Unlike some of the other posters to this thread, I'm not any sort of expert.  But it's certainly true that changing the style speeded things up considerably.  I'm sorry, Michael.  I hope you can get it fixed.


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## Umbran (Dec 1, 2003)

Morrus said:
			
		

> The styles can't cause slowdowns - they're just colours.  A black page isn't quicker to load than a white one or a purple one.




Well, the styles may not cause a slowdown _of the server_.  But perhaps part of what's being observed is client-side?  What everyone calls "downloading the page" is actually downloading and rendering for display.   Might not the new page take an extra moment or two to render?


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## Tom Cashel (Dec 1, 2003)

Michael_Morris said:
			
		

> What really gets under my skin are direct attacks I've received in private email over this linked directly to folks who combine a hatred for change with severe ignorance on how servers work.




Mike, no offense, but your general attitude about this whole thing is getting under my skin, and--I'd imagine from all those e-mails--under the skin of other people as well.

Let me bring you up to speed: over the past two years, there have been at least three major "changes."  Changes of software, changes of servers, changes of administrators.  Some of those changes undoubtedly worked out for the better.  But without variation, those changes have meant two things: *slowdowns* and *outages*.

Now those same slowdowns and outages are happening again, except this time it's because of (or a corollary to, or coincidentally happening at the same time as...I'm one one of those Server Eejits you mentioned) *cosmetic* changes.  Not critical or necessary, but cosmetic.

People who are, say, seeking gamers for their next get-together, or desperately need to know how a rule works right now, or need some feedback on how to handle a problem player, or are organizing a Game Day, or playing by post, or reading story hours, or a hundred other things that go on in here, don't want to wait a couple extra days becuase because somebody out there thinks EN World can't go on without drop-down menus and a host of color schemes.  Some people take the utilitarian view that the boards' basic functionality is more important than their appearance.

So please keep that in mind before you lash out with that acerbic keyboard of yours.  People are going to get uppity when you mess with their functionality, and telling them to upgrade or calling them eejits isn't going to help that, at all.  If you're going to pursue this course, you need to test it before you implement it.

The boards are like molasses today, for me, and I'm running IE6 on a Pentium 4 with a cable modem.   I don't think the problem is on my end.


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## diaglo (Dec 1, 2003)

Tom Cashel said:
			
		

> The boards are like molasses today, for me, and I'm running IE6 on a Pentium 4 with a cable modem.   I don't think the problem is on my end.




ditto.


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## Plane Sailing (Dec 1, 2003)

My connection to ENworld has been unusably slow today on very modern hardware and with a huge connection to the internet (writing from work )

Interestingly enough after I'd spent 10 minutes (click on user CP, click on options, click on "ENworld Classic" rather than "Default") and suddenly the site is responding at normal speed again.

This is after the additional styles are turned off (and I wasn't seeing dropdowns at the top of each page either, so I guess they had been removed) but the unavoidable conclusion is that there is something in the coding for the current "default" style which is causing the server a lot more problems than the coding for the "ENworld Classic" style.

If you'd like another pair of eyes to look over some code I'd be happy for you to email to me the relevant files.

Cheers


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## MerakSpielman (Dec 1, 2003)

Michael_Morris said:
			
		

> 640x800 is an incredibly RARE resolution choice these days, mayber 1 in 200 browsers, maybe.



not 640x480 or 800x600? A 640x800 screen is taller than it is wide...

Oh, and MM, it might be worth the effort to remove the changes you've made, just as an experiment, to see if server performance increases. Even if there's no logical reason for it to make a difference, well, I've seen computers defy logic on many an occasion.

And if people are getting uppity, remember that to many this place ain't just a message board.... it's the only thing keeping them sane at the office. Like any addict, if something is messin' with their supply, they start getting violent. Well, as violent as you can get through email.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Dec 1, 2003)

Download.com 36.3 kbps

Classic: probably somewhere between 1-2 minutes.

And no I'm NOT going to try the default one.   

It's pretty apparent that it's not my machine; other message boards are flying for me.  WOTC, the Bolter and the chainsword, and a few others.


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## Michael Morris (Dec 1, 2003)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Download.com 36.3 kbps
> 
> Classic: probably somewhere between 1-2 minutes.
> 
> ...




Well for one, WotC is using the exact same damn script I am, so if this slowdown was my fault you'd observe the same slowdown on their board.

The fact is that two days before I went ahead and worked on these switches a slowdown was being caused by *something.*  Fact is I should have waited to see what that problem was and get it resolved before adding another variable to the mix.

They've been down since this morning.  You folks have been complaining all this morning about a slowdown but guess what folks...

*IT AIN'T ME THIS TIME*

So get the crap off my back.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Dec 1, 2003)

MerakSpielman said:
			
		

> And if people are getting uppity, remember that to many this place ain't just a message board.... it's the only thing keeping them sane at the office. Like any addict, if something is messin' with their supply, they start getting violent.




Addicted?  Hardly, just cause I'm emailing everyone that's in my pbp games instructions on how to change their style doesn't mean anything... 


*Sigh* The 4-day weekend in the states was bad enough...


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## Piratecat (Dec 1, 2003)

Michael, people reporting slow response time - and I'm experiencing that as well - is NOT a personal attack on you. It's not a reflection on the impressive work you've been doing, and I don't think the hostility is warranted or appropriate.

Folks, our apologies for the slow performance. We've had some trouble with a corrupted database, although that's not the only issue. As soon as we know and have it fixed, we'll let YOU know.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Dec 1, 2003)

WoTC is working fine for me...   and please don't raise your CAPS key at me...  

And the slowness for me has been since Thursday, but it’s been worse since you adjusted the "floating" drop down window.

Edited: cause I'm a nice guy...


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## Michael Morris (Dec 1, 2003)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Michael, people reporting slow response time - and I'm experiencing that as well - is NOT a personal attack on you. It's not a reflection on the impressive work you've been doing, and I don't think the hostility is warranted or appropriate.
> 
> Folks, our apologies for the slow performance. We've had some trouble with a corrupted database, although that's not the only issue. As soon as we know and have it fixed, we'll let YOU know.




I am getting touchy and defensive - for that I'll apologize.  If you had a look at some of the rather abusive emails I've been sent over this you'd get an idea of why my mood is so foul right now.

Another reason is that I'm being villainized here.  Yet I know I did nothing that could cause this slowdown.  The problem is caused by something that's not even visible in the final rendering - one of the databasing programs is using a bad table structure in the database and MySQL is tripping out.  TH knows the specifics, but he's having trouble tracking it down and removing it.

Meanwhile the script I put in at the same time is visible and therefore being blamed for problems it didn't cause in addition to the ones that are it's fault (which I'm working to correct).

Two problems - one major but invisible, and one minor but quite visible.  I think I've fixed the rendering problem on the styles, but I dare not reactivate the things until the other problem is fixed.


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## Mark (Dec 1, 2003)

The slow down ended for me when I was able to go to the "Classic" style in my User CP while logged in and while logged out once the default was returned to the "Classic" style, so no more problems on my end.  I have every confidence that Double-M will figure out what was up and get it straightened out some time in the near future.


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## Desdichado (Dec 1, 2003)

Nobody's villanizing you in this thread, at least.  I don't think you should use private e-mails as an excuse to get snarky on the message boards with completely unrelated people.

For that matter, you're in a "foul mood" and are "touchy and defensive" (to use your own terms from your own post) quite frequently.  Might I suggest that if you want to take on a "public" role in a community of several thousand people, that you work on developing a thicker skin?


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