# New Neverwinter Nights Game Probably On Its Way



## Jools (Aug 9, 2010)

It looks that way. Consider these three points:  

1. At Gencon this weekend wizards announced that Atari are just about to unveil a new D&D video game. 

2. Wizards announced that they are reviving their support of the Forgotten Realms universe next year.  

3. Games.on.net did some digging and found that Atari just registered a number of Neverwinter Nights related web domains (neverwinter-game.com, for instance). Link: here.

So it looks quite likely. I've never played the first, was it any good? How's Atari's form right now; are they making good games? It'll be interesting to see if it'll incorporate 4e game mechanics.


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## Mournblade94 (Aug 9, 2010)

Jools said:


> It looks that way. Consider these three points:
> 
> 1. At Gencon this weekend wizards announced that Atari are just about to unveil a new D&D video game.
> 
> ...




If Atari is doing it, it probably will not be done by Bioware, so the legacy of those games will be wanting.  I also know through gaming press that bioware declined D&D license renewal.


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## Hella_Tellah (Aug 9, 2010)

I thought Neverwinter Nights 1 & 2 were okay, but they had some serious issues. The engine was really clunky and poorly optimized, so even on today's gaming rigs it's still ridiculously slow. Also, the writing was really not up to the high standards Black Isle set with Planescape: Torment and Baldur's Gate. The Mask of the Betrayer expansion for NW2 had a pretty interesting story, however.

Atari has released some excellent games recently, but like most companies, they tend to phone it in on licensed properties.


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## Festivus (Aug 9, 2010)

NWN1 was unique in that it had a full toolset for building your own adventures PLUS a GM client you could take a group through.  The single player game was okay, but what really gave that game legs was the custom content and GM client.

I would LOVE to see a 4e version that did similar to NWN1... complete with a GM client.


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## Sunseeker (Aug 9, 2010)

Mournblade94 said:


> If Atari is doing it, it probably will not be done by Bioware, so the legacy of those games will be wanting.  I also know through gaming press that bioware declined D&D license renewal.




This is probably due to their current involvement in the Dragon Age series, Mass Effect line, and SWTOR.  Also might be due to being bought by EA, but you'd think that EA would fall all over itsself to crank out sub-par dnd DLC.




Hella_Tellah said:


> The Mask of the Betrayer expansion for NW2 had a pretty interesting story, however.



That's partly because it was written by Obsidian, not BioWare.  Which is strange because 9/10 times, BioWare is the one who's awesome, Obsidian is not.



> Atari has released some excellent games recently, but like most companies, they tend to phone it in on licensed properties.



Atari is a company I can never figure out, half the time their games are amazing, the other half, it's like they didn't try at all.  *shrug*


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## knightofround (Aug 9, 2010)

NWN1 was pretty good...the story wasn't that great, but it was bioware, so it will still a good game. NWN2 was a royal pain in the arse, I couldn't force myself to play more than an hour or two before stabbing my eyes in frustration over both the UI and camera.

I didn't care much for the NWN storylines...if you want a good story, you really need to go back to baulder's gate 1/2 and planescape: torment.


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## Silverblade The Ench (Aug 9, 2010)

Atari is just a publisher, and IMHO, a bad one at that (maybe it's improved, I'll give 'em benefit of the doubt)
check what "atari" actually is, Interplay rebranded is all
they forced Troika into pushing out unfinished games, ruining them
Arcanium, Temple of Elemental Evil and Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines are threee of the BEST games ever made for the PC. They jsut needed 3+ months more bug testing. When patched, they rule.
Atai forced 'em out ealry
then see the mess with Pool of Radiance 2...same thing.

yes I'd adore for Bioware to make more Neverwinter nights games, but, TURN BASED, 4th ed won't work well otherwise, think about it.
Also WOTC nuked Neverwinter almost out of existance in 4th ed Realms...gonna be hard to make it logical to call it a "Neverwinter Nights" game, eh? 

Bioware recently have been AWESOME for the quality of their games, man, Dragon Age origins, if it had been D&D rules...*quivers in ecstasy* 

EDIT
"Neverwinter Campaign Guide"...now if that isn't a spoiler, what is?


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Aug 9, 2010)

There are some rumours that it might be an NWN MMO done by Cryptic, actually. Cryptic has announcned/admitted/indicated that they are doing a third MMO a while back, and some things seemed to have indicated it might be NWN. Cryptic also seems to be working on a UGC system for its engine (that runs Champions and Startrek Online). Unfortunately, I am only talking about rumors I've heard, and don't have actually reliable sources.

I am kinda meh on Forgotten Realms, admittedly.


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## filthgrinder (Aug 9, 2010)

Mournblade94 said:


> If Atari is doing it, it probably will not be done by Bioware, so the legacy of those games will be wanting.  I also know through gaming press that bioware declined D&D license renewal.




Bioware stated that they'd rather spend the time and effort to work on their in house brands, than licensed material. Which is why they went from the Knights of the Old Republic to Mass Effect, and D&D to Dragon Age. Of course, then Lucas Film made them an offer they couldn't refuse and now they are doing the Knights of the Old Republic MMO



Silverblade The Ench said:


> Arcanium, Temple of Elemental Evil and Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines are threee of the BEST games ever made for the PC. They jsut needed 3+ months more bug testing. When patched, they rule.




Those are some rose colored glasses  Temple of Elemental Evil is basically unplayable.


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## Festivus (Aug 9, 2010)

Silverblade The Ench said:


> Atari is just a publisher, and IMHO, a bad one at that (maybe it's improved, I'll give 'em benefit of the doubt)
> check what "atari" actually is, Interplay rebranded is all
> they forced Troika into pushing out unfinished games, ruining them
> Arcanium, Temple of Elemental Evil and Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines are threee of the BEST games ever made for the PC. They jsut needed 3+ months more bug testing. When patched, they rule.
> ...




And thus you can see why Bioware decided to develop Dragon Age without the use of the D&D licensed stuff and make their own game... which totally rocks.  There was an article way back when about their decision on this, and licensing problems (Atari?) was a part of that decision if I recall correctly.

I wish they would drop Atari and their stupid requirement to have a disc in the player while you play the game thing.


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## Festivus (Aug 9, 2010)

filthgrinder said:


> Those are some rose colored glasses  Temple of Elemental Evil is basically unplayable.




Out of the box, yes I agree.  But with the patches it's a freaking awesome game that I still play to this day... I'd argue the best turn based CRPG I have ever played.


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## Hella_Tellah (Aug 9, 2010)

Temple of Elemental Evil is pretty cool, except for the whole "click a thousand times to loot a corpse" thing. Is there a patch that fixes that? I really, really want to like the game, but when the whole game is killing things and taking their stuff, I need to be able to, umm, take their stuff.


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## Ainamacar (Aug 9, 2010)

filthgrinder said:


> Those are some rose colored glasses  Temple of Elemental Evil is basically unplayable.




ToEE was buggy, and the last part of the game was seriously undercooked for content, but it was hardly unplayable in my experience.  Far too many frustrating problems at release than should be allowed for any software, but not enough to make the game unplayable.   I admit I may just have been one of the lucky ones. Nevertheless, the combat was just fantastic -- much more tactical depth than any of the D&D games since at least Baldur's Gate (I didn't really play the earlier D&D games).  I say that as a big fan of the Infinity Engine games, and even somewhat of NWN.

On the other hand, Arcanum offered some of the best role-playing I've ever seen in a game, but a disappointing implementation of combat.  It also has my all-time favorite game soundtrack.  I'm at increased risk of seeing that game for more than it was since I participated in its beta and even contributed a piece of in-game fiction found in the Tarant library.  If you ever play with the Educator background, that was my idea.   Nevertheless, I stand by my overall positive opinion as being sober-minded.

VtM:B had a lot of the excellent role-playing options of Arcanum, and a competent combat implementation to go with it.  The WoD setting and style of combat aren't my usual cup of tea, but I was pretty into the game despite that.  I played it long after release, and only with unofficial patches, though.

In short, I agree with Silverblade the Ench about Troika's games.  Their first two games, in particular, left me filled with a lot of "coulda woulda shoulda" but I still adore them.


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## UngainlyTitan (Aug 9, 2010)

NWN 1 I enjoyed and played a lot of, particularly multiplayer fan modules.
As for NWN2 I played the initial version but gave up on the Mask of the Betrayer because the camera drove me nuts.
It was a problem initially in NWN2 they solved it in later patchs but reverted in Mask and that just killed it for me.
Dragon Age I could  not get into, I just do not want to have to control party members.
I wish they would make stuff like that multiplayer, I could really dig a game where the party members could be controlled by real individuals.
So if a 4e NWN is on the cards, where does that leave DDO?


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## TarionzCousin (Aug 9, 2010)

"Good luck to you all! The rest of us will most certainly die if you fail--but try to keep that from your minds...."

Ah, good times.


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## erf_beto (Aug 9, 2010)

Hmmm, I'm playing NWN2 right now (found it really cheap on a supermarket two weeks ago). Then I remembered why I quit playing NWN1... 

I'm still playing it though, buy boy, do I wish game companies would stop making those inventories such a pain!!! Why can't we have a simple and effective list of items, organized by type?!? Why do they must be presented with small images that look too much alike to be identified at a glance? You have to reorganize them yourself, loosing valuable game time, after every fight or looting a chest! And you have to right-click, left-click, cover your entire screen with a window of flavor text that you don't need - and you have to scroll down to see its properties! 

"Quickly, the dwarf is dying! Use the potion! Oh no, wait! That's an acid flask!!!"

Am I the only one who prefers Final Fantasy III/VI inventory over this? Even Pokemon does it better!

Oh, but they have an "Organize Inventory" button right over there, you say? Really? Have you used it? It priorizes your useless craftable components over weapons and other usefull items! And by the way, I like to kill monsters and take their stuff, but I didn't mean literaly! Are we all butchers that must take the glans out of every bug we encounter? And what's with all the recipes? If I wanted to play Cooking Mama, I'd do so! >.<

And the game pratically forces you to play the cooking game, otherwise you might end up with a subpar character (NWN is 3.5, so you must be a christmas tree, right?). 

And I know there are a lot of fan made modules for this, but why do I need so many character classes and races and choices, when the single player game is so freaking huge? By the time I finish it, I'll be so tired of it, I won't replay it just to see what a barbarian gnome looks like. God forbid I want a quick time of leisure play. No, I must read and click through long texts, through an "immersive" storyline just to get to the first combat... and probably a boring tutorial one.  

Would it kill them to add a random dungeon mode for quickplay?

And what is it with computer games and "roleplaying"?!? I might as well be playing with a blue Smurf the size of peanut! The game makes no difference, I'm just a static sprite with no personality choosing bipolar speech lines, just trying to find the "right" answer that will give me the best item/reward. Is THAT roleplaying? Because in the end, it doesn't matter what you choose, you always end up doing what the game wants you to do, you don't have a DM. So why can't I be interesting like the NPCs? At least they can speak and interact with the story, and among themselves. 

Oh, I get it! It's because I have to IMAGINE my character doing all that in my head, so it's just like pnp D&D! That's where the roleplaying is... ¬¬

Oh, and I will spare you of all the issues I have with the camera... and party movement... and... 


...

Sorry for the rant...


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## Dausuul (Aug 9, 2010)

I still play NWN1--specifically the "Hordes of the Underdark" expansion, and once in a while "Shadows of Undrentide." (Not the original campaign though.) Never touch NWN2 any more. I played through the original NWN2 campaign exactly once; I tried "Mask of the Betrayer" a couple times but could never muster enough interest in the storyline to see it through, and found the spirit-eater business to be confusing and frustrating.

"Hordes of the Underdark" is nice because it throws you right into the action, and also starts you out at a good high level with lots of options--you don't have to slog through level after boring level as a lowbie. That's a major issue I have with the replayability of many CRPGs, by the way. The low levels are usually a kind of extended tutorial, and maybe players need that tutorial the first time through, but when I've already played it a couple of times... please, for the love of God, give me an option to fast-forward to the good stuff! I really _want_ to play your game through a few times, try out different character concepts, but not if I have to jump through all the low-level hoops again while the computer holds my hand.

I think any CRPG which follows the "level-up" approach should unlock one of the following the first time you complete the first chapter:


An option to start new characters off at the beginning of the second chapter. Any time you play though the first chapter, each monster you kill and each chest you loot gets "unlocked" if it wasn't already. When you pick the "skip first chapter" option, you automatically start with all the XP and loot from unlocked monsters/chests. You also get a menu to make any important first-chapter RP decisions (did you save the villager or get the magic sword?).
An option to "fast-forward" already-completed sections of the first chapter, cutting out the busywork; it would give you the XP and loot from minor encounters and dungeons without making you play through them, and just give you the RP scenes and the big battles.
A whole alternative first chapter which levels you up fast and pulls no punches, delivering you to the same point at the start of chapter 2. This would be ideal, but it might be hard to justify the additional development time.
Also, don't force NPCs on me. When the spoony gnome bard shows up and starts yabbering at me, I want the option to tell him to get lost. (In fact I want the option to pull out my sword and whack his head off, but I accept that this may not be available.) Don't make me accept him into the party and _really_ don't make me drag him along on adventures; the fact that NWN2 made me take the whole damn party on the final adventure annoyed the hell out of me. I'm sure you folks love all your NPC henchmen/women and think each of them is a perfect precious snowflake, but you can be pretty sure that when you have 8 or 10 of them, any given player will utterly detest at least one.

Bonus points for shaking up stereotypes. Not every bard has to be a blithering idiot. Not every dwarf has to be an axe-wielding, ale-swilling Scotsman. Not every druid has to be a New Agey tree-hugging hippie. Just once I would like to see a cynical, world-weary druid whose attitude is, "Look, fellows, you've got medieval technology and you live in a world where nature produces things like dragons and gorgons and landsharks. I say again: _Land. Sharks._ So when I tell you to respect the trees, you better listen, because them trees will eat your face."

And finally, before you start working on romantic subplots, go get a focus group or something and find out which of your NPCs the player is most likely to _want_ a romantic subplot with. Ursula Vernon had a nice post on this. If you only have time to develop one romantic subplot for each gender option, make the right choices:

Humorless, earnest elf druid lady OR fun-loving bad-girl tiefling rogue?
Humorless, earnest paladin guy OR witty, snarky elf wizard dude?

Really, guys, it's not hard. There's a reason "sense of humor" ranks high on pretty much everybody's dating wants. (Hordes of the Underdark isn't great in this department, but you do get one appealing option--if you're a male character and go the evil route, you can turn Aribeth's ghost into a psychotic anti-paladin and have what is implied to be a seriously twisted villain romance, with a lot of sharp-edged banter.)



erf_beto said:


> Boy, do I wish game companies would stop making those inventories such a pain!!! ... "Quickly, the dwarf is dying! Use the potion! Oh no, wait! That's an acid flask!!!"




Hilarious but oh so true. The Diablo-style inventory system has pretty much taken over the CRPG/MMO market, and I wish it would go away. There has got to be a simpler, less clunky way to keep track of your stuff.


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## erf_beto (Aug 9, 2010)

Dausuul said:


> Hilarious but oh so true. The Diablo-style inventory system has pretty much taken over the CRPG/MMO market, and I wish it would go away. There has got to be a simpler, less clunky way to keep track of your stuff.



Yes, there is: just play any SNES or Genesis RPG game.


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## Agamon (Aug 9, 2010)

Atari published NWN2 and DDO.  Doesn't mean much, they're just the publishers, I wonder who the dev studio will be?  It'll be cool to see a 4e PC game, I think it'll work well.


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## Raunalyn (Aug 9, 2010)

> There are some rumours that it might be an NWN MMO done by Cryptic, actually. Cryptic has announcned/admitted/indicated that they are doing a third MMO a while back, and some things seemed to have indicated it might be NWN. Cryptic also seems to be working on a UGC system for its engine (that runs Champions and Startrek Online). Unfortunately, I am only talking about rumors I've heard, and don't have actually reliable sources.




Wasn't Cryptic working on a World of Darkness MMO?


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## Sunseeker (Aug 9, 2010)

I certainly hope Cryptic doesn't make an NwN MMO, honestly I'd kill for ANYONE to make a good SRPG these days.  Yeah, a slam-bam MMO with a monthly fee and a few microtrans makes for a good profit margin, but really, there are times when I just don't want to be around other people and just enjoy my own little world.

Not to mention an NwN MMO would have a difficult time distinguishing itsself from WoW, even moreso from DDO.


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## renau1g (Aug 9, 2010)

I enjoyed NwN I but the whole "no-party" element of it really turned me off. Sure you could have 1 guy following you, but if you played a mage, you needed a fighter and thief with you, one to hold off the enemies and one to disable to traps. Unfortunately, you couldn't have that as a mage so it really sucked. Either you couldn't open trapped or locked chests, or got pounded in fights without the fighter holding the line.


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## Wrathamon (Aug 9, 2010)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> There are some rumours that it might be an NWN MMO done by Cryptic, actually. Cryptic has announcned/admitted/indicated that they are doing a third MMO a while back, and some things seemed to have indicated it might be NWN.





They're doing a D&D MMORPG - unannounced. Doesn't mean that this will be the 1st new D&D game announced thou.


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## WizarDru (Aug 9, 2010)

Wrathamon said:


> They're doing a D&D MMORPG - unannounced. Doesn't mean that this will be the 1st new D&D game announced thou.




Atari ALREADY HAS a D&D MMORPG.  D&D Online Unlimited by Turbine, which has jumped from 8th position to 3rd in the MMORPG business since jumping to the Free2Play model late last year.


NWN1 had a terrible single-player game, but the expansions were much, MUCH better...and those paled in comparison to what the fan community was able to pull of with the toolset, right down to persistent worlds.  NWN2 managed something similar, but was not as well implemented (and featured some serious missteps, IMHO).


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## ProfessorCirno (Aug 9, 2010)

shidaku said:


> That's partly because it was written by Obsidian, not BioWare.  Which is strange because 9/10 times, BioWare is the one who's awesome, Obsidian is not.




This is nonesense.

Bioware's entire credo is to release the _same game_ with the _same characters_ and virtually no depth, ambition, or meaning every single time.  And hey, they succeed at it.

Obsidian is the opposite.  Fantastic storytelling, incredible characterization, and sublime depth and meanings in their games bar one.  They have, however, Troika Syndrome - what they lack is _mechanical_ expertise.

NWN2 is, agreed, not a good game or a good story - but how can it be when it's being forced into yet another terrible stock cliche fantasy story?  Mask of the Betrayer, on the other hand, is flat out better then _anything_ Bioware has made.  It's easily one of the best games made in recent times.  It's Planescape: Torment levels of good.


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## deinol (Aug 9, 2010)

Whatever the game is, it'll be a new team and new code. So while we may hope that the dev team learns lessons from previous games, the only thing they'll really have in common is the brand name. (IE, compare Baldur's Gate with Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance)

I'm actually rather surprised that they hadn't announced something sooner really. The hype around the new addition 2 years ago was a better time to start a new computer game line.


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## Remus Lupin (Aug 9, 2010)

ProfessorCirno said:


> This is nonesense.
> 
> Bioware's entire credo is to release the _same game_ with the _same characters_ and virtually no depth, ambition, or meaning every single time.  And hey, they succeed at it.
> 
> ...




Urrrhhh???


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## P1NBACK (Aug 9, 2010)

I'd be super interested in a new NWN game. I loved the mini-MMO persistent worlds crafted in NWN1. I didn't like NWN2 that much. 

I'm on the fence about an MMO though. I have tried various MMOs in the past and they just don't grab me like they should. I'm looking for something that games like WoW and the persistent grind cannot offer.


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## UngainlyTitan (Aug 9, 2010)

One thing that strikes me, given that there is no official announcememt is it going to be 2 years+ before we see the actual game?


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## Lancelot (Aug 10, 2010)

I'd be thrilled to see a good 4e solo-play D&D CRPG. I'd be even more thrilled if it came wtih DM tools as well (e.g. Neverwinter Nights). I'd be heartbroken if it's just another MMO.

With regards to the Bioware vs Obsidian vs Troika discussion, here's my two cents...


I agree with the earlier post that *Bioware *simply repeats the same formula again and again. I think that's fairly well-known, as it has been the topic of a number of online articles. They have a superficial layer of "choice" in nearly all of their games (basically: good or evil) and they use stock characters (e.g. drunk Berserker dwarf theme: Oghden the Dwarf = Black Whirlwind = Khelben the Dwarf = Korgan the Dwarf = etc).
However, they also make great games. The mechanics are excellent. I've played all of them multiple times, and I've never played a Bioware game that I didn't enjoy...
...except for the original *Neverwinter Nights*. I really disliked that campaign. Amazing toolset, and I love what the community did with it, but the original campaign was terrible. The two expansions were excellent, though. I particularly liked *Shadows of the Underdark*. The first time the true Big Bad was reveal, my jaw actually dropped.
I didn't enjoy *NWN2 *as much as the NWN expansions, but I find it more playable than the original NWN. I liked some of the NPCs, enjoyed the stronghold quests, and appreciated the epic scope. And I'll add my voice of support in saying that *Mask of the Betrayer* has the second-best story (after Planescape:Torment) of any D&D game ever released.
I've played *Arcanum *a couple of times and, while I like the creative world design, the mechanical implementation of the game is pretty poor. It's not something I'd recommend.
*ToEE *is a love-it-and-hate-it game. I think it has the best implementation of turn-based D&D rules ever... but it's based on a sub-standard module, and it requires immense patience. Half-baked later stages? Absolutely - which reflects the half-baked nature of the original module. And the game is buggy as heck.
...and finally, there's the one Troika game I love without reservation (assuming you have patched it to fix the big game-breaking bugs...). I own no White Wolf products and have never played their pen-and-paper (and costume) games, but I love *Vampire Bloodlines* the CRPG. Fun story, great NPCs, some truly nerve-racking moments. The first play-through I went all the way to the end after being a faithful follower of the prince, and got "that" ending. Stunning. I've since replayed it at least four times as members of other clans. Just a great game.
Another favorite CRPG not mentioned here: *The Witcher*. I'd recommend this for a very different shades-of-grey storyline that is unlike the Bioware good/evil standard. Reminiscent in parts of Dragon Age (which, some might say, copied elements of it), crossed with Hellboy (a lot of fey mythology and other-realm opponents) and made with European sensibilities (i.e. no real heroes, grim storyline that doesn't end in a heroic triumph, and a lot of nudity - unless you're playing the censored US-release version).


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## Sunseeker (Aug 10, 2010)

Remus Lupin said:


> Urrrhhh???




See this chart:


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## ProfessorCirno (Aug 10, 2010)

Motb also has perhaps the _only_ RPG romances that aren't hysterically and unhealthily based on codependency and emotional control.

Seriously, Bioware romances are just one very small step from being _Twilight-esque_.


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## Kzach (Aug 10, 2010)

Atari don't develop games, they just distribute and produce. And IMO, they constantly push out product that isn't ready and as a consequence, does poorly and cops a lot of criticism for being buggy. The latest example being Star Trek Online.

The original NWN was a decent game mainly because the story was fun and easy to get into and had interesting party NPC's. But the second one had an extremely lame story, incredibly annoying party NPC's, and rail-roaded you into doing things that few people with any sense whatsoever would ever do.

The only good thing about it was that the scenario builder had advanced significantly, making it easier to make custom games. Unfortunately, few people took advantage of it.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Aug 10, 2010)

ToEE rocked (well, minus the bugs, which I didn't have many problems with personally, but for which there can be no excuse).  I would love to see another single-player turn-based game based on 4E rules and a classic adventure series ... but only if they take the time to do it right.

Which means it won't happen.  Sigh.  It'll end up being an MMO, since all the money is in MMOs.


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## Aristotle (Aug 10, 2010)

I'd like it to be an amalgam of ToEE and NWN1. I want a great turn based RPG with a rulset that allows for the creation of modules to be run solo or co-op, with the ability for a GM to sit in and actively control the scenario. Let it import data from DDI, or just release an expansion every 6 months or so and milk me for the cash because if the toolset is good, and it gives me the virtual tabletop environment I desire, you'll own my heart again (after stopping my D&D involvement completely about 9 months after the release of 4e).


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## Banshee16 (Aug 10, 2010)

ProfessorCirno said:


> This is nonesense.
> 
> Bioware's entire credo is to release the _same game_ with the _same characters_ and virtually no depth, ambition, or meaning every single time.  And hey, they succeed at it.
> 
> ...




Woah.....maybe I have to go back into that one, because I'm not feeling it with Mask of the Betrayer.  Given the only NPC I've been able to find so far is a Transmuter, and I'm playing a fighter/wizard, it's really difficult to do important things like get healing.

Maybe the Planescape: Torment style story is still to come.  I'm not seeing it so far though.

Banshee


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## Keldryn (Aug 10, 2010)

Silverblade The Ench said:


> Atari is just a publisher, and IMHO, a bad one at that (maybe it's improved, I'll give 'em benefit of the doubt)
> check what "atari" actually is, Interplay rebranded is all
> they forced Troika into pushing out unfinished games, ruining them
> Arcanium, Temple of Elemental Evil and Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines are threee of the BEST games ever made for the PC. They jsut needed 3+ months more bug testing. When patched, they rule.
> ...




Sorry, most of this is incorrect:

Atari is Infogrammes (a French game publisher) rebranded, not Interplay.

Arcanum was published by Sierra Entertainment.

Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines was published by Activision.

Pool of Radiance 2 (Ruins of Myth Drannor) was published by Ubisoft.

Not speaking up in defense of Atari (which bares no resemblance to the Atari of the 80s other than the name and logo), as they've mishandled a lot of games which they have published.  

However, Troika released buggy and unfinished games with three different publishers (Atari, Sierra, Activision), so while the publishers do likely share some of the blame for the condition of the final product, the studio itself obviously had its own difficulties with managing their projects.


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## Festivus (Aug 10, 2010)

Kzach said:


> Atari don't develop games, they just distribute and produce. And IMO, they constantly push out product that isn't ready and as a consequence, does poorly and cops a lot of criticism for being buggy. The latest example being Star Trek Online.
> 
> The original NWN was a decent game mainly because the story was fun and easy to get into and had interesting party NPC's. But the second one had an extremely lame story, incredibly annoying party NPC's, and rail-roaded you into doing things that few people with any sense whatsoever would ever do.
> 
> The only good thing about it was that the scenario builder had advanced significantly, making it easier to make custom games. Unfortunately, few people took advantage of it.




I'll only speak for myself...  I did a LOT with NWN1 and multiplayer.  I coded, I ran a campaign for a couple years, I ran  one off adventures thanks to Neverwinterconnections.com.  I didn't really get into NWN2 because there was no GM client and the module building tools were a measure of magnitude more complex than NWN1.

What I would drool all over is a simple toolset like NWN1, a GM client where I can control the action, and TURN BASED.  Something I don't think the world has ever seen... but I would buy in a heartbeat.


----------



## ProfessorCirno (Aug 10, 2010)

Banshee16 said:


> Woah.....maybe I have to go back into that one, because I'm not feeling it with Mask of the Betrayer.  Given the only NPC I've been able to find so far is a Transmuter, and I'm playing a fighter/wizard, it's really difficult to do important things like get healing.
> 
> Maybe the Planescape: Torment style story is still to come.  I'm not seeing it so far though.
> 
> Banshee




If that's your only other partner, then you're in the first ten minutes of the game 

Also, I will recommend getting a mod or console command or something similar to allow for five NPCs rather then just four, seeing as how there's four other characters that join you, and lacking even just one is pretty bad - the MotB NPCs are incredibly well detailed and, well, characterized.  They're starkly three dimensional, especially in comparison to the cardboard characters Bioware prints out.

As for the storyline, allow me to quote from an absolutely brilliant LP:



> _Mask_ is a story about truth, and the differences between what is  obvious and what is actually real. It's a story about learning and  knowledge, and also about ignorance and falsehoods. It's a story about  self-discovery.
> 
> _Mask_ is a story about death, and the dead. It's a story about  God, the gods, and the godless. It's a story about what happens to you  after you die, and why bad things happen to good people (and the other  way around).
> 
> _Mask_ is a story about love. Not a love story, mind, but a story about capital-L _Love._ Love of family, love of friends, religious love, love for your country and, yes, romantic love.




For those of us that have played, I'd honestly say there are some very good comparisons to be made to PS:T.  The 



Spoiler



talk with Myrkul


 especially.


----------



## Neuroglyph (Aug 10, 2010)

Personally, I am not sure if it will be a new NWN Game or not.  

Having just gotten back from GenCon 2010 -which was awesome! - it feels like Dark Sun is the HUGE NEW THING, with not only a massive product line, but a comic book and novel series coming out to support it.  

Admittedly, they did announce a Neverwinter Nights Boxed setting to be out in 2011, which will be a mini-campaign in that region, but one wonders if they would put out a computer game and a boxed set of the same area in the same year.

Personally, I am hoping for a Dark Sun electronic product - an MMO would be amazing, but I don't know how likely that is.

BTW, here's a link to my blog of the *D&D Preview and Q&A* if anyone is interested.


----------



## Monkey Boy (Aug 10, 2010)

Neuroglyph said:


> Personally, I am not sure if it will be a new NWN Game or not.
> 
> Having just gotten back from GenCon 2010 -which was awesome! - it feels like Dark Sun is the HUGE NEW THING, with not only a massive product line, but a comic book and novel series coming out to support it.




Darksun won't happen. They have learnt their lesson after the last batch of 3e Eberron branded games stumbled. Neverwinter is an established brand they can bank on. The question is whether it'll be an MMO or not? I suspect not, given the legal wrangling over DDO.


----------



## erf_beto (Aug 10, 2010)

DDO is a fine game. I'd rather not see two DnD MMOs compete with each other. 

So, yeah, I do hope we see a turn based solo game, with the option to create your own adventures and GM them with your friends. And please, like I said earlier, let's have a quick play option. O


----------



## JohnRTroy (Aug 10, 2010)

Just to correct people, all of Neverwinter Nights 2 was Obsidian, not just MoTB.

Anyway, I don't see anything wrong with standard tropes.  It's only the jaded and cynical gamers who have played numerous games who really complain about that stuff.  This is always somebody's first game, and the Hero's Journey is pretty much the best type of game structure suited for it.


----------



## AllisterH (Aug 10, 2010)

*sigh*

If it was ANYONE other than Atari publishing it...I'd have hope.

But as others have mentioned in this thread...its ATARI...

ugh.


----------



## MrMyth (Aug 10, 2010)

ProfessorCirno said:


> NWN2 is, agreed, not a good game or a good story - but how can it be when it's being forced into yet another terrible stock cliche fantasy story? Mask of the Betrayer, on the other hand, is flat out better then _anything_ Bioware has made. It's easily one of the best games made in recent times. It's Planescape: Torment levels of good.




I don't really keep track of who made what game, but my experience doesn't quite match this. 

NWN2 is an ok story, with some especially weak plot justifications for the railroading, and an absolutely terrible ending. Mask of the Betrayer is a much stronger story, but I still didn't feel it had the emotional depth that NWN1 (and Hordes of the Underdark) had. Some good plot elements, but not quite on the level of Planescape: Torment. 

Edit: Though, in retrospect, my feelings on MotB may have been tainted by the transition from NWN2, where I liked the story most of the way, and rather wanted to continue it rather than having pretty much all my former connections cut away in a new game.


----------



## Remus Lupin (Aug 10, 2010)

shidaku said:


> See this chart:




Ok, I take your point, although by leaving out PS:T and MotB, it sort of stacks the deck a bit. However, I do see the comparisons.

However, now that I'm looking at this, I realize that it doesn't matter that much to me, since the games are so much fun, and part of the fun is seeing how Bioware plays with and modifies the cliche's from game to game. And, honestly, I can't think of many games that are more fun to play, cliches or not.


----------



## deganawida (Aug 10, 2010)

Remus Lupin said:


> Ok, I take your point, although by leaving out PS:T and MotB, it sort of stacks the deck a bit. However, I do see the comparisons.
> 
> However, now that I'm looking at this, I realize that it doesn't matter that much to me, since the games are so much fun, and part of the fun is seeing how Bioware plays with and modifies the cliche's from game to game. And, honestly, I can't think of many games that are more fun to play, cliches or not.




PS:T was made by Black Isle Studios, while MotB was made by Obsidian Entertainment.  Thus, neither would appear on the Bioware cliche chart.

Regarding a new NWN, though I had a feeling this would happen, I sincerely hope that it doesn't.  If it must be set in FR, I would prefer a new Baldur's Gate (minus Bhaalspawn).  Given that BG is a major city in the new FR, it would seem appropriate.

Still, I would rather any game be set in PoLand, to capitalize on the stuff 4e has introduced rather than on more drow rangers, and to keep video game stuff out of published settings.


----------



## WizarDru (Aug 10, 2010)

Monkey Boy said:


> Darksun won't happen. They have learnt their lesson after the last batch of 3e Eberron branded games stumbled.




DDO is a 3e Eberron branded game.  After they course corrected, it went from 8th place to 3rd place for MMOs (I assume that number refers to domestic US games).



Remus Lupin said:


> Ok, I take your point, although by leaving out PS:T and MotB, it sort of stacks the deck a bit. However, I do see the comparisons.




It also skews the data to suit it's agenda.  The Citadel is a major location in Mass Effect, but it's not listed so that you can match up the four-location list.  Cerberus hardly dogs your every move there, either, having just four missions in ME1, most of them linked to one character.  Hardly the stuff of having your every effort thwarted.  And saying the bad guys (the Sith or the Geth or whomever) try to stop you is a pretty broad qualifier.  It counts Jade Empire's 'travel across the land' as a positive for 'visiting four locations' and omits Dantooine and Taris in KotoR to make it fit.

I mean, there are definitely tropes in play...but they're genre tropes and things done to facilitate a good game.  And some of them are virtual requirements to such games.  I'd be more curious to see a chart showing some good games that DON'T follow many of these tropes.  As mentioned above, a lot of games fail in the endeavour.  ToEE was the best implementation of 3E rules ever, but it was buggy as hell and really not that great a game, overall (though it became playable after the Circle of Eight fan effort created a patch to fix the game's many, many bugs).  Arcanum had it's heart in the right place, but it's interface was clunky and unintuitive, it too was buggy and the graphics were dated even then.

As for Obsidian, I've never played Mask of the Betrayer, so I can't comment on it.  But NWN2's camera and the first hour of play were uninspiring enough that we never really got into it, even though we played NWN 1 for a long time with all the community content (which was much better than the original campaign, though the expansions were fantastic).  If Obsidian wants a reputation as a studio that doesn't just take sloppy seconds and whatever their publisher needs to farm out when the 'real' developers leave, they should stop taking projects like Dungeon Siege 3 or Fallout: New Vegas.  So far, the only truly unique IP they've had was Alpha Protocol, widely regarded as a disappointment both critically and in sales.


----------



## Steel_Wind (Aug 10, 2010)

My expectation is that this is a new NWN3 game. Who the develeoper will be is unknown. BioWare is now part of EA and will not deal with Atari in any fashion -- let alone get involved in a game where they do not own or control the IP. That ship has sailed.

As for Obsidian, given the poor performance of Alpha Protocol and the cancellation by Sega of their Aliens/Marines RPG last year, I would not be surprised if Obsidian Entertainment is involved again.

Frankly, I'm somewhat surprised to see a PC CRPG for D&D again. There are exceedingly few PC only titles these days.  The fact that there were no electronic exhibitors at Gencon 2010 is not an accident folks.  That ship has also for the most part, regrettably, sailed.  The money is just not there anymore when compared to the far more profitable platform that 360 and PS3 console games provide. (MMOs excepted).

As for the setting... look: the cost of *any* setting from the developer's viewpoint is exactly the same on a royalty basis. Given that, a developer will choose the one with the most traction with the average computer game buyer. And that setting is most assuredly the Forgotten Realms, leveraging either the _Neverwinter_ or _Baldur's Gate_ brand names.  In this case, the Neverwinter brand seems to be the next batter up given the recent IP domain name reservations.

The rumor of a NWN Forgotten Realms MMO has been around for quite a while. It would not surprise me to learn that this was a MMO game.  DDO has been a commercial and economic failure for WotC, Atari and -- for the most part -- Turbine. (There is no debate about this point. You might like the game, but I'm counting $$, not smiles and good feelings.) 

Were I Feargus and Co at Obsidian -- my first choice would be to return "Neverwinter Nights" to its original "MMO roots" [insert pointless and miguided nostalgia over AOL's Gold Box engine NWN game here]. Because the copy protection for a MMO is guaranteed they are for more profitable if you succeed. They also cost a helluva lot of money to develop properly, too. 

As for the mod tools and any DM client for NWN 3... that ship has also, regrettably, sailed.  The tile based game that was NWN1 encouraged modding in a manner that was an odd convergence of widespread gaming PCs, the internet, and technical art requirements that were within the capability of enthusiasts. 

By the time NWN2 was released, the technological curve had progressed to the point where all but the most hardcore of enthusiasts had been effectively shut out of participation. The days of the solo modder ended. And I assure you, even a team approach is exceptionally difficult to do.

And yes, for those of you who recorgnize the handle, I was the leader of DLA team that BioWare hired to create the third expansion for NWN1,_ Wyvern Crown of Cormyr_. 

So I do lay claim to extensive knowledge in this area. The plain fact is that the 3d art tools now involved in the creation of a modern CRPG are beyond the skillset of all but a dozen or two members of the game community. The difficulty in producing much of anything for use with _Dragon Age_'s toolset and engine is clear evidence that a toolset designed for community use is just no longer worth it, imo.  (And for the record, BioWare paid a lot of money to fly ex-members of DLA and other NWN1 community members to Edmonton for training on the _Dragon Age_ toolset, too. They really did try to make it happen for _Dragon Age_.)

Sad, but there it is.


----------



## WizarDru (Aug 10, 2010)

WizarDru said:


> And some of them are virtual requirements to such games.  I'd be more curious to see a chart showing some good games that DON'T follow many of these tropes.




To Wit:  the opening of Arcanum from wikipedia  "_Arcanum begins with a cut scene of the IFS Zephyr, a luxury zeppelin, on her maiden voyage from Caladon to Tarant. Two monoplanes, piloted by Half-Ogre bandits, close in on the craft and commence attack runs, succeeding in shooting it down. A passenger aboard the Zephyr, an old gnome, now in his death throes under charred debris, tells the player to bring a silver ring to "the boy", and promptly dies. Being the only survivor of the crash, the main character is proclaimed as "The Living One", a holy reincarnate, by the only witness to the crash, Virgil. The story follows the player's path as he searches for the origin of the ring he has to deliver. Over the course of the game, the player uncovers more about the history of the continent, the motivation of the assassins out there to kill him and the identity of the one threatening to end all life on the land._"

So, we have humble beginnings shattered by an attack leading to you being named a member of an elite order and being placed on a quest while an evil organization hinders him, just from that summary.  

Here's Mask of the Betrayer's opening act: "_In Act I, the story continues from the defeat of the King of Shadows. The player wakes up, alone, in a cave in Rashemen,[9] and soon meets Safiya, a Red Wizard of Thay.[3] The player arrives at the town of Mulsantir after it has been attacked by several Red Wizards and during which Safiya's mother Nefris was killed. After finding a portal leading to Shadow Mulsantir in the Plane of Shadow which contains a shadow reflection of the Prime Material Plane, the player enters it and helps Safiya to defeat the Red Wizards. Upon returning to the Prime Material Plane, the player's party confronts the spirit god Okku and defeats his army, which leads to the player becoming a spirit eater,[8] a cursed being that hungers for and devours feys and elementals._"

Again, a catastrohpic attack a character defies an evil organization who hunts him and he joins an elite force travelling with companions.  Looks like there are dream sequences, too.


I would expect most games in the genre use any number of these tropes.  And I'm OK with that, since in general the difference between an Obisidian and a Bioware is execution, which I feel the former does OK with and the later is stunningly successful in performing.


----------



## ProfessorCirno (Aug 10, 2010)

MrMyth said:


> I don't really keep track of who made what game, but my experience doesn't quite match this.
> 
> NWN2 is an ok story, with some especially weak plot justifications for the railroading, and an absolutely terrible ending. Mask of the Betrayer is a much stronger story, but I still didn't feel it had the emotional depth that NWN1 (and Hordes of the Underdark) had. Some good plot elements, but not quite on the level of Planescape: Torment.
> 
> Edit: Though, in retrospect, my feelings on MotB may have been tainted by the transition from NWN2, where I liked the story most of the way, and rather wanted to continue it rather than having pretty much all my former connections cut away in a new game.




I cannot even begin to understand how NWN1 could be said to have had "emotional depth."  It was probably one of the more terrible single player experiences I've had 

As for Mask of the Betrayer, I don't think it's really possible to compare Gann, or Safiya, or Kaelyn, or even grandpa bear Okku to NPCs in (almost) any other game and have them come up short.  They're fully complex and 3 dimensional characters.  They have their own likes, dislikes, their own tastes and desires.  You don't grow closer to them by playing My First Psychologist to them or kowtowing to their every whiney demand, you do it by convincing them you're right and by making an actual and genuine bond with them.

The problem with most games is that they're stuck in "You need to save the world."  It's a boring plotline - and hilariously conservative at that.  The idea is that everything in the entire universe was fine and happy, and there was no strife anywhere at all, when suddenly the big bad evil guy came in and tried to _alter the status quo!_  The hero is purely reactive.

Planescape: Torment and Mask of the Betrayer don't have that.  They're both intensely _personal_ storylines.  In your standard Bioware game, you don't make any real decision.  You don't change the story.  The story isn't about you.  You're just the pawn of fate, or the one chosen by destiny, or whatever other silly phrase you want to apply to it.  You're still going to save the world at the end of the day, and it makes for a dull, shallow story.  Rather, PS:T and MotB don't have you as a character in the story, but rather as _the story itself_.  The plot literally revolves around your character.  The choices you make matter a _lot_, often times with rewards or reprucussions far along the way.

I don't really think there's a comparison to be made.  While mechanically Mask of the Betrayer wasn't the best game, it's writing carries it far above anything the Canadian doctors have ever done.


----------



## AllisterH (Aug 10, 2010)

Steel_Wind said:


> The rumor of a NWN Forgotten Realms MMO has been around for quite a while. It would not surprise me to learn that this was a MMO game.  DDO has been a commercial and economic failure for WotC, Atari and -- for the most part -- Turbine. (There is no debate about this point. You might like the game, but I'm counting $$, not smiles and good feelings.)
> 
> .




This may have been true when DDO originally launched but now?....

DDO, since going to the microtransaction model has massively increased its revenues...Indeed, on MMORPG forums, DDO is endlessly discussed/examined as it is the first clear example of the "pay to play vs free to play" debate.

It's like leapfrogged from near the back of the back among domestic MMOs to the top 5 MMOs in terms of success/revenue.


----------



## Sunseeker (Aug 10, 2010)

Remus Lupin said:


> Ok, I take your point, although by leaving out PS:T and MotB, it sort of stacks the deck a bit. However, I do see the comparisons.



Not BioWare games is why.



> However, now that I'm looking at this, I realize that it doesn't matter that much to me, since the games are so much fun, and part of the fun is seeing how Bioware plays with and modifies the cliche's from game to game. And, honestly, I can't think of many games that are more fun to play, cliches or not.



What BioWare has discovered, regardless of if we like it or not, is that cliche's are fun, popular and sell.


----------



## Remus Lupin (Aug 10, 2010)

But my point is, I do like it! At least, I like what they do with it.


----------



## MrMyth (Aug 10, 2010)

ProfessorCirno said:


> I cannot even begin to understand how NWN1 could be said to have had "emotional depth." It was probably one of the more terrible single player experiences I've had




Different experiences, I suppose. Maybe it was that Hordes of the Underdark, and the 



Spoiler



reappearance of Aribeth


 helped redeem the limitations of the first one. I don't know - but I felt much more tied to the story. ~shrug~



ProfessorCirno said:


> As for Mask of the Betrayer, I don't think it's really possible to compare Gann, or Safiya, or Kaelyn, or even grandpa bear Okku to NPCs in (almost) any other game and have them come up short. They're fully complex and 3 dimensional characters. They have their own likes, dislikes, their own tastes and desires. You don't grow closer to them by playing My First Psychologist to them or kowtowing to their every whiney demand, you do it by convincing them you're right and by making an actual and genuine bond with them.




I admit, Safiya was a reallly excellent character. Some of the others were solid, others... less so. But I've found the same in... well, in most RPGs, whether the NWN series, or Dragon Age, or Mass Effect. There are shallow characters in each, but also deeper ones, and I don't recall anything in MotB breaking out of this mold. And as mentioned - more importantly, I really liked many of the characters from NWN2, and getting cut off from them and having others forced into the party was not a winning strategy. But as I said before, NWN2 having literally the worst ending of an RPG I've ever played may be coloring my view of things a bit. 

You mention that the plot is more interesting - more built around the character rather than 'save the world'. There is certainly truth to that. On the other hand, that only makes the limitations of the plot all the more frustrating. I spent the latter part of the game actually feeling excited over the chance to 



Spoiler



assault the Wall of the Faithless, something about FR I've long despised... only to have the chance simply handwaved away from you, and have your character shrug and not bother with it.


 
That's the problem, really - you aren't playing 'your story', not actually. You're playing some other story that the designers really wanted to tell. And I know that's true of pretty much every CRPG we're talking about here, to one extent or another, and some of the Bioware ones certainly as well - but it felt _especially _bad in parts of NWN2 and MotB. Too many times where I could see them pulling me along to one tragedy after another I couldn't prevent, or forced down linear paths or given only one or two options - both ones I didn't want to make - and no other choice possible. MotB is certainly not as bad as NWN2 in that regard, and does have a very strong story to tell, but I'm just not quite sold on it being an epic in the same vein as Planescape: Torment. 

I admit, it is pretty unique, and I can see why you would make the comparison. But concept and execution are different things, and I definitely felt - at least for me - there were flaws along the way holding it back.


----------



## ProfessorCirno (Aug 11, 2010)

The only MotB companion I found to be not incredibly deep was Many-As-One, and that's because he was the most perfect Igor evil minion ever 

As for your spoiler, WotC (at least then) was notoriously heavy handed on how games could not be allowed to drastically effect the Realms.  They wanted to give you a chance to do exactly what you wanted to do, but in the end didn't even ask after their experiences and frustrations with NWN2's OC.

There's a reason Bioware doesn't want to make any D&D games.  Whenever you deal with someone else's setting, it's not uncommon that one stipulation be "The status quo *must* be maintained - video games are not allowed to alter the setting."

Actually I found the dichotomy surrounding that spoiler incredibly interesting.  You'll see people who intensely agree with Kaelyn that it's very existance is an affront and an injustice on all of the Realms...and you'll see others who insist that it's not only neccisary, but a _good_ thing, something that both should and must continue to exist.

To quote...myself...quoting someone else (this is getting weird):



> _Mask_ is a story about death, and the dead. It's a story about   God, the gods, and the godless. It's a story about what happens to you   after you die, and why bad things happen to good people (and the other   way around).



I don't know of any other game which is so polarizing here...because I don't know of any other game that directly asks how you view _faith_.  Not faith in any one specific religion, but the very idea of it.

I mentioned it before, but if you have played Mask of the Betrayer - or aren't going to, ever - or just want a really good read - then the Lets Play of it that Lt. Danger did.


----------



## innerdude (Aug 11, 2010)

erf_beto said:


> And what is it with computer games and "roleplaying"?!? I might as well be playing with a blue Smurf the size of peanut! . . . . I'm just a static sprite with no personality choosing bipolar speech lines, just trying to find the "right" answer that will give me the best item/reward.
> ...




And what is it with 4e and "roleplaying?!?" I might as well be playing a green army man figure from a Dollar Tree store on a battle mat . . . . I'm just a static bunch of stats, with no personality, choosing bipolar at will/encounter/daily powers, just trying to find the "right" answer that's supposed to give me the "optimum build" so I can beat the next encounter.

(TIC)



(Sorry, 4e lovers, the comparison was just too apt for me to resist. Game on! I really hope I didn't hurt anyone's feelings.)


----------



## MrMyth (Aug 11, 2010)

ProfessorCirno said:


> I mentioned it before, but if you have played Mask of the Betrayer - or aren't going to, ever - or just want a really good read - then the Lets Play of it that Lt. Danger did.




Ok, now this is funny, because I hadn't even noticed your link to it, but while trying to refresh myself on the story, stumbled upon that review. (And, admittedly, started to remember the game in a more favorable light because of it.)

As for the spoiler itself, from my first experience with it in the fiction, I've always found it an incredibly powerful mythic element of the setting, as well as something that made me pretty much loathe the way the gods ran the setting. Which is, of course, the sort of contradictions myths are built around, and certainly makes for a good central point of a game - but also made the character's ultimate lack of agency over that path (even to try and fail, notably) so disappointing.


----------



## Lazybones (Aug 11, 2010)

I am _still_ playing NWN1 multiplayer, in fact one of my campaigns has been going steady for almost seven years now. I would love to see a NWN3 that includes a potent DM Client and a new toolset, but I have to agree with Steel Wind that it is very unlikely that we'll see another game as friendly to multiplayer gamers and builders as the original NWN was. A pity because it is amazing what the custom content community has been able to accomplish with just the basic NWN engine (for example, I've played in campaigns based not only on fantasy settings, but Firefly, Star Wars, and X-COM).


----------



## Kzach (Aug 11, 2010)

erf_beto said:


> DDO is a fine game. I'd rather not see two DnD MMOs compete with each other.




We wouldn't. The travesty that is the current DDO would be scrapped for something, anything, much better


----------



## JVisgaitis (Aug 11, 2010)

filthgrinder said:


> Of course, then Lucas Film made them an offer they couldn't refuse and now they are doing the Knights of the Old Republic MMO.




Lucas didn't approach Bioware. It was the other way around... You are right about them wanting to develop their own IPs though.


----------



## Sunseeker (Aug 11, 2010)

JVisgaitis said:


> Lucas didn't approach Bioware. It was the other way around... You are right about them wanting to develop their own IPs though.




Which they have nearly done with SWTOR, it's such an impossible mish-mash of different eras of Star Wars that it's more of an alternate universe than something that could actually be canon.


----------



## frankthedm (Aug 11, 2010)

i can't shake the suspicion this will be shovelware to fulfill contract obligations. 

Dungeons & Dragons fight: Hasbro vs. Atari - Business - Retail - msnbc.com
Atari reboot is underway - Los Angeles Times


----------



## Jhaelen (Aug 11, 2010)

innerdude said:


> (Sorry, 4e lovers, the comparison was just too apt for me to resist. Game on! I really hope I didn't hurt anyone's feelings.)



Don't worry!

And welcome to my ignore list!


----------



## Holy Bovine (Aug 11, 2010)

Innerdud said:
			
		

> And what is it with Pathfinder and "roleplaying?!?" I might as well be playing a green army man figure from a Dollar Tree store on a battle mat . . . . I'm just a static bunch of stats, with no personality, choosing bipolar attack or cast powerz just trying to find the "right" answer that's supposed to give me the "optimum build" so I can beat the next encounter.
> 
> 
> 
> (Sorry, Pathfinder lovers, the comparison was just too apt for me to resist. Game on! I really hope I didn't hurt anyone's feelings.)




There - edited for tr00th!


----------



## Umbran (Aug 11, 2010)

innerdude said:


> (Sorry, 4e lovers, the comparison was just too apt for me to resist. Game on! I really hope I didn't hurt anyone's feelings.)




If you need to include an apology, the post was a bad idea to begin with.  Do you really wish us to believe your self-control is so weak that you literally couldn't resist?  

Next time, resist.  Really.



Holy Bovine said:


> There - edited for tr00th!




Because fighting fire with fire is so constructive! 

Ladies and gentlemen, do not continue with edition and game warring in this thread.


----------



## WizarDru (Aug 11, 2010)

Kzach said:


> We wouldn't. The travesty that is the current DDO would be scrapped for something, anything, much better




Seeing how it has become more profitable in the last year the several that preceded it and has increased it's membership by a factor of 5-10...I don't think you're going to get your wish in that regard.  Wouldn't be the first time I was wrong, though.


----------



## JVisgaitis (Aug 12, 2010)

shidaku said:


> Which they have nearly done with SWTOR, it's such an impossible mish-mash of different eras of Star Wars that it's more of an alternate universe than something that could actually be canon.




I don't agree. I know quite a few people who work there including their managing editor who is also one of the main writers. The game is VERY respectful of the Star Wars IP.


----------



## Derren (Aug 14, 2010)

Even I, the most obnoxious 4E hater du jour, would like to see another D&D game, no matter the edition (as all the complains I have about 4E don't apply to video games).
Sadly, as far as the rumor mill goes it doesn't look good.

As it was said before, everything points to Atari announcing a Neverwinter Nights MMO by Cryptic.
And Cryptic is not known to make high quality MMOs. Their games tend to be rather simplistic but also very customizable.

What their games ultimately boil down to is "You have a overland map with groups of monsters in there and NPCs. The NPCs give you quests to go into a building and kill all monsters in there"

I think both their recent MMOS, Champions Online and Star Trek Online are free to play til level 15 or so. So you can see for yourself that Cryptic making the game is not a good thing. Still they are a logical choice as they already have experience with MMOs for PnP games (Champions).


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## nedjer (Aug 15, 2010)

Looked at MMORPGs in detail over the last couple of weeks for blogging. In short, NWN is happening, EA have something different up their sleeve and it'd be slightly mad to buy this year with a big shake up, and out, on the way. Unless you have an independent, residual income, in which case Eve online can become your whole life


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## Sunseeker (Aug 15, 2010)

JVisgaitis said:


> I don't agree. I know quite a few people who work there including their managing editor who is also one of the main writers. The game is VERY respectful of the Star Wars IP.




Respectful of the IP, oh sure, respectful of Star Wars canon?  Not in the slightest.  We've got extinct races that are fully playable, we've got ships the size of Star Destroyers existing some 300 years before their time.  Oh yes, SWTOR may be Star Wars in the fact that everything in it comes FROM Star Wars, but hardly any of it actually fits the timeline.


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## Derren (Aug 15, 2010)

shidaku said:


> Respectful of the IP, oh sure, respectful of Star Wars canon?  Not in the slightest.  We've got extinct races that are fully playable, we've got ships the size of Star Destroyers existing some 300 years before their time.  Oh yes, SWTOR may be Star Wars in the fact that everything in it comes FROM Star Wars, but hardly any of it actually fits the timeline.




Does Star Wars even have a real timeline? From what I have seen the Extended Universe is about as bloated and structured as some Marvel comics.
And even the core story got shaken rather badly recently thanks to Force Unleashed (Sith squashing Star Destroyers) which is canon as far as I know.


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## Sunseeker (Aug 15, 2010)

Derren said:


> Does Star Wars even have a real timeline? From what I have seen the Extended Universe is about as bloated and structured as some Marvel comics.
> And even the core story got shaken rather badly recently thanks to Force Unleashed (Sith squashing Star Destroyers) which is canon as far as I know.




The future EU(after RotJ) is pretty straight forward for a while, then gets really screwy what with the Vong and goes all over the place after a while.  The past EU(Old Republic) is pretty much more solid, but then there's a lot less to it.  And yeah, that Starkiller punk really screwed up even the normal storyline, and yeah, it's canon too.

I don't know what the deal is, but it seems like Lucas just isn't taking the time to keep his world straight anymore.


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## Dungeoneer (Aug 15, 2010)

I played the NWN games.  Those games are probably as good as they could have been.  I think the fundamental issue is that they try to do to much (and the players demand even more).  It seems like people expect a game with 1) a fantastic single-player campaign but which 2) can be played cooperatively 3) by a player using virtually any race and class all while expecting 4) a complete toolset for building their own campaigns.  

I would like to see a third entry in the NWN series just focus on a good single player campaign that supports a decent number of races and classes.  Granted I'm biased because I never got into the community stuff for those games.  But I'm guessing neither did the vast majority of players.  

Release a good, polished, single-player D&D game and you'll make a lot of people happy.  All that secondary stuff can come later.


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## Dungeoneer (Aug 15, 2010)

I'd also like to jump in with people defending Bioware's 'formulaic' games.  Most good fantasy literature follows similar tropes, so it's hardly shocking that Bioware does.  Add in the fact that they need a story that takes a player from level 1 to 20, from zero to hero, and they're even more constrained by the kind of stories they can tell.

Of course expansions are always a chance to break out of those constraints, which is why I think people like them so much.  But in their main campaigns they use those tropes because they work.  People enjoy the hero's journey and typically really connect with the NPCs in a Bioware game.  They must be doing something right.


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## Derren (Aug 15, 2010)

One thing about single player RPGs. The trend goes towards fixed characters with voice like in Mass Effect or Alpha Protocol. Even Dragon Age 2 will have a fixed character.

So if Obsidian is making a single player D&D RPG is is likely that it will also have a fixed character and ~6 companions you can choose from.


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## Rabbitbait (Aug 15, 2010)

I'd just love them to work on the engine a bit more so that you are actually playing in a proper 3D environment. Imagine having characters that can run, jump or fly. I'd love to have a rogue who can scale walls or run along the rooftops. Yes, it makes it harder to railroad the players, but it would be so much more fun. I'd like the skill checks to be used for much more than just dialogue options.


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## Teemu (Aug 16, 2010)

Derren said:


> One thing about single player RPGs. The trend goes towards fixed characters with voice like in Mass Effect or Alpha Protocol. Even Dragon Age 2 will have a fixed character.
> 
> So if Obsidian is making a single player D&D RPG is is likely that it will also have a fixed character and ~6 companions you can choose from.



Which is not a bad thing, IMO. Some of the best CRPGs have been like this -- Torment and Deus Ex.


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## frankthedm (Aug 20, 2010)

shidaku said:


> Which they have nearly done with SWTOR, it's such an impossible mish-mash of different eras of Star Wars that it's more of an alternate universe than something that could actually be canon.



Which means those efforts and _anything similar to them_ are down the drain for Bioware. The IP of KotOR belongs to Lucas, it is like Bioware raised a flower in someone else's yard. Those efforts now benefit lucas and Bioware probably has to police itself to make sure they never make anything close to SWTOR less Lucas consider suing.


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## Dausuul (Aug 20, 2010)

Dungeoneer said:


> Release a good, polished, single-player D&D game and you'll make a lot of people happy.  All that secondary stuff can come later.




Ehhh... the campaign construction toolset is one of those things that's usually hard to retrofit. At the very least you need to build the system with it in mind.

And I don't know that I buy the claim that it's impossible with modern 3D maps. Maybe you surrender some measure of control as a designer--you might have to use prefab rooms and terrain features, with built-in spaces for "decals," instead of customizing every nook and cranny--but it should still be possible.



Rabbitbait said:


> I'd just love them to work on the engine a bit more so that you are actually playing in a proper 3D environment. Imagine having characters that can run, jump or fly. I'd love to have a rogue who can scale walls or run along the rooftops. Yes, it makes it harder to railroad the players, but it would be so much more fun. I'd like the skill checks to be used for much more than just dialogue options.




This would be freaking awesome. And I don't think you'd have to surrender that much control over the flow of the game; there would still be plenty of obstacles the PCs couldn't overcome. You may be able to swim a moat, but not if it's full of *lava*. (For a less extreme case, a stone mansion with no windows wider than arrowslits and all doors barred on the inside would be pretty hard for a PC to break into.)


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## Steel_Wind (Aug 21, 2010)

Rabbitbait said:


> I'd just love them to work on the engine a bit more so that you are actually playing in a proper 3D environment. Imagine having characters that can run, jump or fly. I'd love to have a rogue who can scale walls or run along the rooftops. Yes, it makes it harder to railroad the players, but it would be so much more fun. I'd like the skill checks to be used for much more than just dialogue options.




It's not only about controlling gateways and entrances and "breaking" an advenutre module by flying over obstacles. The AI pathfinding for 3d space around obstacles is prohibitively difficult to code for in a real-time game. There is a reason you have never seen that sort of code in a computer game to date: it requires far too much computing horsepower, too much debugging+playtesting even if you could write it -- and all for the privilege of having a "feature" break your adventure design, too.

From the developer's perspective, "features" like that are an ill-considered waste of development resources.


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## ferratus (Aug 21, 2010)

If we are talking about what we want out of a D&D game, I want the point and click game play interface destroyed.   It is the main reason I don't play MMO's.   

Pointing and clicking on targets and letting a dice roller determine whether I hit or not is not fun videogame play.   There is absolutely no skill mastery involved, just grinding and resource management.   It sucks.

Why can't we have action/adventure games with D&D intellectual property?  The only one I've ever played was Demon Stone, and while the gameplay wasn't anything to write home about, it was at least fun to play once.


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## Jhaelen (Aug 23, 2010)

ferratus said:


> Pointing and clicking on targets and letting a dice roller determine whether I hit or not is not fun videogame play.   There is absolutely no skill mastery involved, just grinding and resource management.   It sucks.



Umm, skill mastery? What skills are you talking about? Ego-shooter skills? No, thanks.

I'm playing pen & paper rpgs. I want a video game to model that experience. I wouldn't want it to model live action roleplaying!

Compare it to football video games:
There's the football manager games where you see a short overview of the game or just the results. This tests you skill at developing strategies and tactics. That's the kind of thing I am interested in.

Then there's the football action games where you twiddle two joysticks and manically press ten buttons to pass the ball to another player. This tests you skill at joystick-fiddling and button-pushing. That's the kind of thing I am not interested in at all.


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## Dausuul (Aug 23, 2010)

Steel_Wind said:


> It's not only about controlling gateways and entrances and "breaking" an advenutre module by flying over obstacles. The AI pathfinding for 3d space around obstacles is prohibitively difficult to code for in a real-time game. There is a reason you have never seen that sort of code in a computer game to date:




City of Heroes. Full three-dimensional flight, in an MMO no less, released six freakin' years ago.

Not that I would necessarily expect flight capability. It was more the climb/swim/jump options that appealed to me. (Although flying enemies would be awesome.)



ferratus said:


> If we are talking about what we want out of a D&D game, I want the point and click game play interface destroyed.   It is the main reason I don't play MMO's.
> 
> Pointing and clicking on targets and letting a dice roller determine whether I hit or not is not fun videogame play.   There is absolutely no skill mastery involved, just grinding and resource management.   It sucks.
> 
> Why can't we have action/adventure games with D&D intellectual property?  The only one I've ever played was Demon Stone, and while the gameplay wasn't anything to write home about, it was at least fun to play once.




Well, feel free to agitate for a new franchise along those lines, but Neverwinter Nights is meant to model the D&D game with at least a passable degree of accuracy, and D&D _is_ point-and-click.


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## Nymrohd (Aug 23, 2010)

Thousands of people can fly around in WoW at the same time. And flying combat would be ludicrously easy for Blizzard to implement in WoW; already you can cast instants while falling and now in the new expansion under certain conditions you're able to cast spells as well. If the 7 year old WoW engine can do it on a massive world, why not a CRPG? Aion is entirely built around flying combat.

Also additional movement options would not really change much in CRPG. The obstacles in moving forwards are usually built in the plot or require solving puzzles/obtaining keys. Even in a game that offers a sandbox (like Elder Scrolls: Oblivion) there will always be a sequence of events required to complete questlines.


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## WhatGravitas (Aug 23, 2010)

In other news: it's confirmed and going to be developed by... Cryptic Studios.

And it's going to be what Cryptic calls an OMG (Online Multiplayer Game) - allegedly playable as single-player as well, but it's supposed to be easier/more fun as multiplayer. Sounds a bit like Guild Wars.

User-created content is planned as well. The interview doesn't read too bad... but I'm not exactly overly enthused with Cryptic's games so far (especially STO). So, let's see - I hope it's going to be good.

Cheers, LT.


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## Dausuul (Aug 23, 2010)

Lord Tirian said:


> In other news: it's confirmed and going to be developed by... Cryptic Studios.
> 
> And it's going to be what Cryptic calls an OMG (Online Multiplayer Game) - allegedly playable as single-player as well, but it's supposed to be easier/more fun as multiplayer. Sounds a bit like Guild Wars.
> 
> ...




Hmm. Interesting.

I reflexively wince at the "multiplayer first" approach, which seems to be what they're pushing here. Pushing me to play multiplayer is part of what turns me off MMORPGs--I want story and immersion, and nothing kills that faster for me than some guy chattering away in MMO slang. I likes my solo play.

On the other hand, it occurs to me that I could probably find a much more congenial and RP-oriented group here on ENWorld, in which case it might turn out to be a lot of fun.

And the plans to continue supporting user-generated content are definitely a good thing.


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## Derren (Aug 23, 2010)

Lord Tirian said:


> In other news: it's confirmed and going to be developed by... Cryptic Studios.
> 
> And it's going to be what Cryptic calls an OMG (Online Multiplayer Game) - allegedly playable as single-player as well, but it's supposed to be easier/more fun as multiplayer. Sounds a bit like Guild Wars.
> 
> ...




Well, R.I.P Neverwinter Nights.
That sounds exaclty as Champions Online from Cryptic which is pretty bad. Don't expect any kind of deep gameplay etc. You can try out CO and also Star Trek Online for free if you want to see for yourself what kind of MMOs Cryptic makes. Keep in mind that Champions Online is also based on a PnP.

That not even all classes will be supported (only five, my guess is fighter, wizard, rogue, ranger, cleric) already shows how "true" Cryptic wil stay to D&D lore.

The release date is also rather soon for an MMO. Which likely means Cryptic does what id always does. Make a half finished MMO with a license to sell enough lifetime memberships beforehand to make it profitable and then drop the game after a few months of support for the next one (Did it with their previous games).


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## Zaister (Aug 23, 2010)

Derren said:


> That not even all classes will be supported (only five, my guess is fighter, wizard, rogue, ranger, cleric) already shows how "true" Cryptic wil stay to D&D lore.




The press release reads:



			
				http://www.playneverwinter.com/about said:
			
		

> Neverwinter features co-operative multiplayer in an ever-evolving, persistent world where Dungeons & Dragons adventurers quest alongside thousands of other *warriors, rogues, wizards and faithful avengers*.




So probably not even clerics.


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## CAFRedblade (Aug 23, 2010)

Kotaku.com also has an article up here:
Return To Neverwinter In 2011

and the link to the site, although just a splash page is here:
Neverwinter

It's set in FR after the spellplague, with choice of five classes. Seems a little low to me in this regard, but gives them expansion options.  Play with friends or computer controlled members.  (multiplayer seems similar to the originals in this respect)  

Based on the upcoming FR novel trilogy written by  R.A. Salvatore ... intriguing.
Ah well, only time will tell if they can pull it off. Kinda hope they do...


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## Teemu (Aug 23, 2010)

Zaister said:


> So probably not even clerics.



Maybe they're going for a Diablo-style game where everyone just deals damage? Simple but fun (if not really D&D).


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## Deverash (Aug 23, 2010)

Derren said:


> That not even all classes will be supported (only five, my guess is fighter, wizard, rogue, ranger, cleric) already shows how "true" Cryptic wil stay to D&D lore.




Wait a second.  Because they're aren't trying to get all 20 something classes out in the first game, they aren't going to stay true to D&D?  As much as I like druids and bards, they aren't exactly necessary to D&D.  I'm ok with them doing some of the classes and putting out more as time goes on.

Unfortunately, I tend to share the fears of the other people about Cryptics games.  I liked City of Heroes well enough, but Champions Online wasn't really Champions like at all.  Now, if they're going the guild wars route, I won't mind much at all, but I don't want to pay a monthly fee for a game that's pretty much like all the other MMOs I've played, whether it's D&D or not.

And the fact that the guy that gave the interview thought that action points are used for rerolls or bonus dice is not comforting(at least he's just the COO).


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## Derren (Aug 23, 2010)

CAFRedblade said:


> Play with friends or computer controlled members.  (multiplayer seems similar to the originals in this respect)




Sounds like Away Teams in Star Trek Online.
Not good at all...



Deverash said:


> Wait a second.  Because they're aren't trying to get all 20 something classes out in the first game, they aren't going to stay true to D&D?  As much as I like druids and bards, they aren't exactly necessary to D&D.  I'm ok with them doing some of the classes and putting out more as time goes on.




What about Paladins, Clerics and Warlocks? You know, the 4E core classes?
And Cryptic has so far not supported any of their fast food games at all. So don't get your hopes up for getting new classes. (You would likely need to buy them with microtransactions anyway).


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Aug 23, 2010)

Deverash said:


> Wait a second.  Because they're aren't trying to get all 20 something classes out in the first game, they aren't going to stay true to D&D?



Where's diaglo when you need him?


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## SquareKnot (Aug 23, 2010)

*Yes, Virginia, There is a Cleric*

Two quick points. First, in the interview, the 5 classes are identified as:
Fighter, Wizard, Ranger, Rogue, and ... Cleric. The splashscreen shows the five, with the human[?] female cleric being on the left, identifiable as holding a mace, followed to her left by the tiefling wizard, human fighter in center, then elf rogue, and  human bow ranger.

Second, the game's name is "Neverwinter," not "Neverwinter Nights." I'm not sure what to make of that. It could be a desire to put some distance between it and the Neverwinter Nights franchise. It could be an intellectual property issue. Who knows.


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## WizarDru (Aug 23, 2010)

It's been confirmed that the classes will be, as you might guess from their website:  Fighter, Rogue, Cleric, Wizard and Ranger.  Their description of the game sounds like something in the middle between Diablo (or, if you prefer, D&D Heroes) and Guild Wars.  It does not sound all that great.  They do suggest that player made content will be somethign that can happen, but they also seem to suggest such limited main game content, I'm not sure what to make of it.  Oooh, we'll get Humans AND Elves AND Dwarves and maybe another race besides?  Wow, don't go too far out on a limb, guys.  

I used to think that Cryptic was the bee's knees.  Certainly, City of Heroes was a refreshing change from contemporary MMOs.  But CO was a disappointment and I was in on the ST:O Beta and knew what was coming for the live game (which is why I didn't buy it).  It's not just that it was extremely buggy, the gameplay was weak and more problematically, very un-Star Trek at times (though to be fair, sometimes they nailed it out of the park).

To say I'm skeptical would be an understatement.


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## ProfessorCirno (Aug 23, 2010)

Everything good that happened in City of Heroes happened more or less in _spite_ of Cryptic.  The best thing to happen to the game was to have it transfered to NCSoft.  Since then they've more or less done nothing of worth.

Granted, they got rid of the tumor that is Bill Roper, but my hopes are, ah, _not high_.


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## hvg3akaek (Aug 24, 2010)

Has someone mentioned this yet?

From here:


			
				Jack Emmert said:
			
		

> In the tabletop game, an action point lets a player perform a reroll or add an additional die to a roll.



Uh...the basic function of the Action Point is to get another *action*...


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## Dragonblade (Aug 24, 2010)

Ugh. I'm a big 4e fan, but my interest in this is ZERO. I'm tired of MMO's. I refuse to buy or play any more and Cryptic sucks.

I essentially want Final Fantasy Tactics/Shining Force, but with 4e rules and set in the D&D universe. I want a core single-player game, but with co-op supporting multiple players (both online and shared screen in the same room) complete with map editor and encounter editor so you can essentially use it to run encounters in your living room for your pen and paper D&D game. That would be my dream. I would easily pay $100 for such a game if it didn't suck and was PS3 or 360 friendly.

Failing that, I want something along the lines of D&D Heroes or Dark Alliance.

But regardless, I want it to be available on consoles and NO FREAKING MMOs!!!


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## TarionzCousin (Aug 24, 2010)

hvg3akaek said:


> Has someone mentioned this yet?
> 
> From here:
> 
> ...



He must play Trailblazer. It has many options when you spend an Action Point. 

There might be hope for this game yet!


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## Dausuul (Aug 24, 2010)

TarionzCousin said:


> He must play Trailblazer. It has many options when you spend an Action Point.
> 
> There might be hope for this game yet!




Or maybe they just couldn't figure out how to integrate "get another action" with real-time combat.


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## renau1g (Aug 24, 2010)

Dragonblade said:


> Ugh. I'm a big 4e fan, but my interest in this is ZERO. I'm tired of MMO's. I refuse to buy or play any more and Cryptic sucks.
> 
> I essentially want Final Fantasy Tactics/Shining Force, but with 4e rules and set in the D&D universe. I want a core single-player game, but with co-op supporting multiple players (both online and shared screen in the same room) complete with map editor and encounter editor so you can essentially use it to run encounters in your living room for your pen and paper D&D game. That would be my dream. I would easily pay $100 for such a game if it didn't suck and was PS3 or 360 friendly.
> 
> ...




Shining Force FTW! My favourite game series ever...


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## ki11erDM (Aug 24, 2010)

I want a game my friends and I can jump in and play D&D together.  The released information says this will be a game my friends and I can jump in and play D&D together.  If that is so, I am happy.


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## Sunseeker (Aug 24, 2010)

Dragonblade said:


> Ugh. I'm a big 4e fan, but my interest in this is ZERO. I'm tired of MMO's. I refuse to buy or play any more and Cryptic sucks.
> 
> I essentially want Final Fantasy Tactics/Shining Force, but with 4e rules and set in the D&D universe. I want a core single-player game, but with co-op supporting multiple players (both online and shared screen in the same room) complete with map editor and encounter editor so you can essentially use it to run encounters in your living room for your pen and paper D&D game. That would be my dream. I would easily pay $100 for such a game if it didn't suck and was PS3 or 360 friendly.
> 
> ...




I hear ya brother.  I love online support, I love the ability to co-op, but dangit, sometimes I just want to play in my own personal fantasy world!  I'm tired of EVERYTHING having to be an MMO.


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## the Jester (Aug 24, 2010)

Well, I have gone from "excited" about this product to "not interested."

I really want a game that plays like Baldur's Gate! Where you can have a cool single-player full party and stuff.

MMO? Not interested.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Aug 24, 2010)

*It is not an MMO.* It is a game where you play a party with your friends. Kinda like... D&D. They call it "*O*nline *M*ultiplayer *G*ame". 

Seeing that I actually like what they are doing with Startrek Online and how they interact with their community, I am cautiously optimistic.


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## Jhaelen (Aug 24, 2010)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> *It is not an MMO.* It is a game where you play a party with your friends. Kinda like... D&D. They call it "*O*nline *M*ultiplayer *G*ame".



I like the acronym: OMG! Oh my god!


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## WhatGravitas (Aug 24, 2010)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Seeing that I actually like what they are doing with Startrek Online and how they interact with their community, I am cautiously optimistic.



In this interview, Emmert (one of the headhonchos of Cryptic) pretty much flat out states that they did things _wrong_ with CO and STO. Also, his company profile says "his first foray into gaming was, of course, Dungeons & Dragons®". No idea whether its just PR or not... but if it's true, we might see something that they mayhaps care about (apart from just the money) and that incorporates many learned lessons. 

I guess I also really want to be optimistic about it - and if it's semi-decent, it might at least become a neat multiplayer-ish game to scratch that D&D itch between tabletop sessions. Well, hope dies last or something... 

(though I really wouldn't mind a full single-player 4e RPG. And in Eberron please, it needs more love.)

Cheers, LT.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Aug 24, 2010)

Lord Tirian said:


> In this interview, Emmert (one of the headhonchos of Cryptic) pretty much flat out states that they did things _wrong_ with CO and STO.



It seems he isn't the only one acknowledging errors. Daniel Stahl on the STO boards and in interviews also is pretty open in identifying things he things were done bad and need fixing. That said - they can't fix it all at once. 



> (though I really wouldn't mind a full single-player 4e RPG. And in Eberron please, it needs more love.)



Yes to both. I am pretty meh about FR as setting for this game.


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## Derren (Aug 24, 2010)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> It seems he isn't the only one acknowledging errors. Daniel Stahl on the STO boards and in interviews also is pretty open in identifying things he things were done bad and need fixing. That said - they can't fix it all at once.




Admitting that they made errors doesn't mean that they will not make them in the future again.
Cryptic still churns out MMOs in a ludicrous speed, making 3 games in the time other companies can make 1. And that they made errors with CO was visible right in the beta, yet ST:O didn't do any better.


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## JohnRTroy (Aug 24, 2010)

Jhaelen said:


> I like the acronym: OMG! Oh my god!




If you ever played the Action RPG Borderlands, I suspect that's where they're going with this--satisfiable as a single player game, a little more fun if you have a full team.

Although I suspect the co-op comes at the price of a very tight story-driven RPG akin to what Bioware produces.


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## Steel_Wind (Aug 24, 2010)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> *It is not an MMO.* It is a game where you play a party with your friends. Kinda like... D&D. They call it "*O*nline *M*ultiplayer *G*ame".
> 
> Seeing that I actually like what they are doing with Startrek Online and how they interact with their community, I am cautiously optimistic.




You guys are missing the point. It's not an "online multiplayer game" so you can't play it solo. It's an "online multiplayer game" so that the game has near perfect copy protection.

THAT is what this is about.


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## Dausuul (Aug 24, 2010)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> *It is not an MMO.* It is a game where you play a party with your friends. Kinda like... D&D. They call it "*O*nline *M*ultiplayer *G*ame".




Part of me wants to say, "If it quacks like a duck..." But I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. And it does sound as if they plan to move away from the MMO model of grinding all day long.

Of course, that still leaves the question of whether they can manage a halfway decent storyline within the game. (Yeah, I know it's based on a Salvatore novel series, but you can't just transcribe a novel into a computer game, and in any case I doubt they have Salvatore himself on staff.)


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## Keefe the Thief (Aug 24, 2010)

I can play Borderlands online with my friends and it is not an MMO. If i can play 4e online with my friends and have fun, this is for me.


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## Derren (Aug 24, 2010)

Keefe the Thief said:


> I can play Borderlands online with my friends and it is not an MMO. If i can play 4e online with my friends and have fun, this is for me.




Looks like Cryptics strategy is still working.
1. Grab a high value IP
2. Make a half finished, bad game out of it in a very short time
3. Sell lifetime subscriptions beforehand
4. Profit (from box sales)
5. Drop the game and grab the next IP.


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## Almacov (Aug 24, 2010)

Dausuul said:


> Part of me wants to say, "If it quacks like a duck..."




I'm assuming the OMG acronym is a joke, but it's funny how many people seem to forget that online multiplayer existed before MMOs.
In reading these interviews, I was struck by how identical the multiplayer model they're discussing in Neverwinter is to the multiplayer offering in Bioware's Neverwinter Nights.

They've obviously identified the content generation flexibility that was offered by the old Aurora toolset as an integral part of the game's legacy, too, which is something I wholeheartedly approve of.


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## erf_beto (Aug 24, 2010)

So, I'm the only who likes fewer classes? 

This _might _mean more time dedicated to developing the game itself, and less about balancing builds against each other.

Anyway, I don't think that "limitation" will last long. They'll probably add new classes later, through some sort of downloadable content - which you'll have to pay, obviously... 

It seems to be the bee's knees these days... Pay full price for a half game. 

And 4e is very modular, with every new book adding new powers and features. I wouldn't be surprised if this were the case with the  MMO  OMG...


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## Dausuul (Aug 24, 2010)

Almacov said:


> I'm assuming the OMG acronym is a joke, but it's funny how many people seem to forget that online multiplayer existed before MMOs.




*shrug* It's a company that has, to date, produced nothing but MMOs (and one spin-off project that consisted of commercializing their MMO graphics engine). They're now taking a franchise focused on single-player offline play, and converting it to mainly-multiplayer and 100% online. Naturally one suspects the end product may end up looking a lot like an MMORPG.

The interviews suggest their goal is something like a standard Neverwinter Nights storyline, and you can play through it solo or with other online players, with the latter being the expected mode. Sounds like a traditional CRPG except for the online requirement, but the devil's in the details. Let's say you've got a party consisting of Alice, Bob, Charlie, and Dave. They play every weekend. They go through the first 4 quests, leveling up, advancing the plot, all that good stuff.

But now Dave is going out of town and can't make it for a weekend. Alice, Bob, and Charlie are experienced tabletop gamers and know that nothing kills a campaign faster than requiring every player to be present for every session, so they go ahead and play through the 5th quest.

What happens next week when Dave returns? Does he get credit and/or XP for that 5th quest even though he didn't participate? What about loot--do Alice, Bob, and Charlie get 4 players' worth of loot, and do they have to face 4 players' worth of opposition to earn it? Or does Dave fall behind on gear? Does Dave have to do the quest on his own? What if he makes different choices than Alice, Bob, and Charlie made? What if he can't do it without Alice, Bob, and Charlie to help him--can they go back and do it again with him? What if Dave decides he'd rather play with Egbert, Francine, and Gerald, does he get to take his character when he goes?

Tabletop games have come up with a variety of answers to these questions, and often rely on the DM to custom-tailor the solution to the group. Given the company's background, I suspect there will be a strong tendency at Cryptic to fall back on the traditional MMO answers without really thinking about it. If they do, we'll end up with a game in which each quest is a disconnected entity, with very limited impact on other quests; in which characters can go back to help others do quests that they themselves have already done; in which characters are readily portable between groups.

At that point what you have is an MMO in all but name. Maybe it lacks some of the grindiness, maybe it has a more intimate feel and is more amenable to roleplaying... but the strength of the traditional offline CRPG, which is the tightly integrated plotline and ability to "remember" player decisions, is lost.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Aug 24, 2010)

Dausuul said:


> Given the company's background, I suspect there will be a strong tendency at Cryptic to fall back on the traditional MMO answers without really thinking about it.



Well, knowing at least one actual game Cryptic made from experience, they use the concept of "sidekicking" (I think that started in Champions). If you team up with other players, you can set a member of the team as the guy you level up or down to. Your hit points and DPS is scaled to match the expected value at that level. It's not perfectly the same as really leveling there (in STO, you don't get more powers for example), but it's a way to deal with level differences. 

Also, I can kinda see how the "single player" option will look like - STO allows you to field 5 bridge officers with you on your away team. The bridge officers are simpler than your character and also weaker, but they have almost the same item slot (one cruicial part of your own equipment is instead part of their skill set). Essentially, they are pets.


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## WizarDru (Aug 24, 2010)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Well, knowing at least one actual game Cryptic made from experience, they use the concept of "sidekicking" (I think that started in Champions). If you team up with other players, you can set a member of the team as the guy you level up or down to. Your hit points and DPS is scaled to match the expected value at that level. It's not perfectly the same as really leveling there (in STO, you don't get more powers for example), but it's a way to deal with level differences.




The problem with both Sidekicking and Exemplaring is that they didn't always work that well.  When a friend with a level 50 character exemplared with our level 10, he wasn't suddenly a Level 10....he was a level 50 with 40 levels worth of attack bonuses removed.  So he still had access to enhancements that made his then-limited powers far more powerful than our characters.  The reverse was also true...a level 20 character raised to 47 is not the same as a level 47 character in CoX (or at least didn't used to be, it's been a couple of years since I played regularly).

I just read that interview with Emmert, and his admission of mistakes on ST:O and CO read like excuses that don't really grasp the problems that they encountered.  He seems to be trying to say that their problem wasn't that they have a bad design process that emphasizes speed...but that those darned fickle consumers expect that the game will work and have all the promised features at launch.  When I played the ST:O beta right up until launch, I was continually amazed how many major bugs existed in the game, unaddressed.  I mean, errors that were in the newbie mission, like you spawning as your starship on ship-based and away missions.  Aspects of the design like having to do stupid fetch quests and patrols to get access to a Phaser-II or a new ship.  Pointless fleet actions, sluggish controls and away missions that were so buggy that people couldn't finish them and so on.

Emmert's takeaway from all that is that if a feature isn't in a game at launch, it's irrelevant to customer adoption numbers; if you have the feature in at launch but its buggy and terrible the negative stigma of your failure will never be dissuaded.  But they seem to miss the "we shouldn't have rushed" idea entirely:  "_We are going to make sure that we carve out, in the time we have, to make the best possible content. Not the most, which is oftentimes what we did in the past, and one of the ways to make sure we're doing well, is we're having a new, basically every few months we have a vertical slice. _"  There is no tacit admission that, "Hey, maybe we should actually develop the Klingons content beyond just being PvP" or "Perhaps we should have done more combat testing before nerfing defense into unplayability for many in CO", for example.  

Emmert's description of the games shows that maybe they're competing with a Borderlands model, maybe with a Guild Wars model...or maybe a Pay-as-you-go model.  DDO's pay2play model works because by the time they implemented it, they already had a fairly extensive amount of content and had already fixed many issues that drove people away earlier.  Borderlands works because you can enjoy it solo or co-op..and there are rewards for playing co-op beyond just having more people present.  And both of them have offered up periodic new content on a regular basis.  Even Guild Wars offers annual events every few months for free.

I see lots of vague promises for new races, new classes and so forth that echo the same kind of 'by-the-pants' development cycles that got them their current reputation.  MMO or just online co-op game, my faith in Cryptic as a developer makes me very wary of this.


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## GregChristopher (Aug 24, 2010)

A few years ago, I would have cared.

But I could barely even play NWN2 for very long before I go sick of resting every ten seconds. Maybe I am getting old but this gets boring...

- Open Door
- Cast Fireball 3 times
- Rest
- Repeat


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## Derren (Aug 24, 2010)

GregChristopher said:


> A few years ago, I would have cared.
> 
> But I could barely even play NWN2 for very long before I go sick of resting every ten seconds. Maybe I am getting old but this gets boring...
> 
> ...





Well, no one forced you to play NWN2 this way, or?


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## Teemu (Aug 24, 2010)

From the Gamespot interview I understood that it's going to launch with heroic levels only. I wonder how slow the advancement's going to be. CRPGs these days tend to offer pretty rapid level ups or other rewards.


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## Rabbitbait (Aug 24, 2010)

I'm very happy with heroic levels only and limited classes and races when the game launches - as long as they do them well.

Overloading with options just seems to me to be a recipe for everything being done half-arsed.

I think particularly with the exception based design of 4e they don't want to overload on options as there will be more chances of bugs and things going wrong.

However, if it is going to be MMO or OMG or whatever it looks as if my hopes for a turn based game are dead. 

I remember that it was low levels only for Temple of Elemental Evil, but this made it a better game (initial bugs aside) as you could see that they had very carefully tried to make the game work very much like D&D. At the time technologically I think it would have been very difficult to impliment higher level spells and abilities.


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## Festivus (Aug 26, 2010)

On Facebook:

Dungeons & Dragons Roleplaying Game Official Home Page - Home (Neverwinter)



> Neverwinter Reborn
> Atari has announced the development of Neverwinter for PC, a new online roleplaying game based on the beloved city of Neverwinter.
> 
> In the game, players choose to become one of five classic D&D classes and team up with friends or computer-controlled allies to form five-person co-op groups. Players also create their own storylines and quests utilizing an extremely user-friendly content generation system, tentatively codenamed Forge.
> ...


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## frankthedm (Aug 26, 2010)

> In the game, players choose to become one of five classic D&D classes and team up with friends or computer-controlled allies to form five-person co-op groups



L4D meets D&D?


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## Festivus (Aug 27, 2010)

frankthedm said:


> L4D meets D&D?




More like an essentials computer game.


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## Dungeoneer (Aug 27, 2010)

I remain extremely skeptical of the possibility of converting the 4e rules into real-time, at least not in any way the remotely resembles the source.

The interview doesn't give me a lot of hope that Cryptic has somehow figured out how to do this, either.  He basically says "The rules will remind you of 4e!  At times!  If you squint, and look at them from a certain angle!"

I'm also with those who are not that interested in squad-based combat in my RPG, or whatever.

Finally: why doesn't Atari ever let the same studio make a Neverwinter game twice?


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## Keefe the Thief (Aug 27, 2010)

frankthedm said:


> L4D meets D&D?




Oh please please please yes!


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## Silverblade The Ench (Aug 27, 2010)

I only tried left 4 dead online, once
not surprisingly we got a stupid ass player hwo took off after some wepaon or such, left rest of us to get ganked, what an ass.
That's what the problem was with Everquest: finding players who weren't greedy and/or morons!!!

so you NEED a guild or friends and ignore list and pass such info on. so scuzzballs get pushed out of the game, tough, they deserve it for ruining yer day!



A typical experience in Everquest years ago:

Moron_001 tells you: "_Hi plz kn I jun u grp?"_

Moron_001 obviously noticed you're the highest level player on at this time in the morning (since I am in UK and played on US servers), 
and also, many of these idiots can't speak bloody English, no, they have to use "leet speak", and I KNOW the moron isn't a "gold farmer", hell, the "Gold Farmers" speak better English than these native-English speaking nitwits! 

You Tell Moron_001, taking pity on him: _"You know the Lower camp in Seb'?"_

Moron_001 tells you: _"Where is Seb?"_

You: _"Um, SEBILIS"_

Moron_001: "_Whrz UM SEBILIS plz?"_

sigh /ignore Moron_001


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## ProfessorCirno (Aug 27, 2010)

The question will be "Is it L4D D&D edition" or "Is it _just marketed as_ L4D D&D edition?"


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