# Call of Cthulhu vs World of Darkness



## VGmaster9 (Aug 17, 2011)

CoC and WoD, as far as I'm concerned, are the two biggest horror games in the market. They both have their very own unique sorta appeal. What is it that you like in the two games? Which one do you prefer? Do you think that they're both the best in the horror genre?


----------



## Crothian (Aug 17, 2011)

The best horror game is Dread.  CoC these days suffers from over exposure.  It's hard to be scared of a great ancient evil that comes as a plushie.  WoD is good for horror mortal games but I get the feeling most of the players use it for Vampires or Werewolves or other super powered creatures.


----------



## Pour (Aug 17, 2011)

This thread comes at the perfect time because I'm running my first Dread game set in the Cthulhu mythos in a few days. It just seemed the right choice, despite having used the Chaosium 6th Edition previously, for a table of new players. Player accounts of how involved people get in front of the Jenga tower just screams at the type of experience I'm aiming for. I mean what better representation of a shattered sanity is there than a falling tower of wooden blocks?


----------



## the Jester (Aug 17, 2011)

I've played in a number of WoD games over the year, but they've never hit the horror button, not even a little bit. 

CoC... yes. YES!!


----------



## Wereserpent (Aug 18, 2011)

Dread sounds interesting, but I would be hard pressed to play particularly seriously. I am a bit bad at pulling Jenga blocks out. For me, it would be like trying to play one of those old NES games that are legendarily difficult, not scary, just frustrating.


----------



## prosfilaes (Aug 18, 2011)

I'm personally a fan of Trail of Cthulhu; I ran one of my most scary games with it.


----------



## MerricB (Aug 18, 2011)

VGmaster9 said:


> CoC and WoD, as far as I'm concerned, are the two biggest horror games in the market. They both have their very own unique sorta appeal. What is it that you like in the two games? Which one do you prefer? Do you think that they're both the best in the horror genre?




World of Darkness is "you play the monsters in a dark world", and it doesn't quite work as a horror game to me. I'm really not fond of how the world is presented.

Call of Cthulhu is "you discover things man was not meant to know", and it works a lot better. The game system is creaky, but the adventures make up for it. The one bit of system that really works is Sanity, and it's all it needs.

Cheers!


----------



## Keeper of Secrets (Aug 18, 2011)

I never really saw WoD as a horror game, actually.  I saw it as more of a game where characters embrace darkness  . . . to a point.  I guess WoD is closer to a game in psychology than horror, which, I suppose could be its own form of horror.

Call of Cthulhu is the original horror game but as Crothian accurately stated, how scary is a game when your main symbol comes on plushies, is being endorsed for president on t shirts and has coloring books associated with it?  (As a slight derailment, as much as I love the old 60's James Bond movies, Austin Powers have kind of ruined their credibility at this point.)

As far as sheer horror goes, well, let's face it - it really is hard to replicate horror in your living room when players are sitting around with their munchies and have the ability to do side conversations about Fantasy Football or even how much better Cthulhu WOULD be as president or whatever.

This is why Dread is the only game that I have found that actually does at least TRY and replicate some horror.  You, the player, share, albeit slightly, with your character.  The nervousness and tension you feel from pulling from the tower is one of the few things that actually can bring you to that same horror level.


----------



## DragonLancer (Aug 18, 2011)

I GM both games and they both provide different approaches to the horror gaming genre. WoD is about playing monsters, and CoC is about investigative horror. Of the two, CoC is by far the best though once players know anything of it the game does lose something.


----------



## Jhaelen (Aug 18, 2011)

MerricB said:


> World of Darkness is "you play the monsters in a dark world", and it doesn't quite work as a horror game to me. I'm really not fond of how the world is presented.



But that's not quite correct. If you're playing WoD without any of the 'add-on systems' (like Vampire, Werewolf, etc.) then everyone is a normal human.

Actually, after reading the nWoD rulebook I thought it would be a very cool system to use for a 'Mystery' campaign, similar to the X-Files stuff.

Similarly, in the nWoD Changeling rpg you play a (formerly) normal human that has been kidnapped and taken to the Fae realm and managed to escape back to the real world. The experience has changed you somewhat, but you're still no supernatural creature (and definitely not a 'monster in a dark world').

nWoD has also dialled down on the 'grim-dark'/pesudo-goth aspects that were so typical for oWoD. I think it should work quite well as a system for modern horror.


----------



## darkseraphim (Aug 18, 2011)

I guess it depends on what type of horror you're going for.

I don't consider WoD horror, because the players play the monsters or slayers, and they progress in power.  I think of it as more of a wish fulfillment game of role reversal, kind of a Dungeon Keeper type of thing.

CoC is definitely a great horror game.  Character anti-progression through sanity loss, serious stakes with "gods" vs. "level 0" mortals, and and a deep campaign world to work with.

I will grant that WoD has better mechanics, and CoC does suffer from over-exposure to the meta-elements; this can be patched a bit with Delta Green.  Dread is a flash of brilliance.

More than any other genre though, horror is reliant on a DM feeling comfortable with the system and feeling confident in its atmosphere (fear is contagious), so the best one is the one you like the most.


----------



## Bedrockgames (Aug 18, 2011)

I much prefer call of cthulu. WoD is cool at times, but nothing beats cthulu.


----------



## Hand of Evil (Aug 18, 2011)

CHILL the old Pacesetter box one!


----------



## Pilgrim (Aug 18, 2011)

CoC / Trail of Cthulhu for 1920s era horror. If I were going to do modern horror, it's either the base setting for nWoD (players playing normal humans vs supernatural elements), Supernatural RPG or Esoterrorists.


----------



## Umbran (Aug 18, 2011)

I've had a lot of fun working with the horror end of Deadlands.


----------



## Mournblade94 (Aug 18, 2011)

I don't see World of Darkness as a horror game, anymore than Twilight is a horror film. World of Darkness seems to be exploring humanities darker side, (Regardless if you play Vamp, Werewolf, mage, changeling) we are still exploring that side of our psyche since all the players are human if their characters aren't.

Call of Cthulhu if done right can be a good horror game, but often in poorly run Cthulhu games the 'good part' is when your character's psyche is devoured to insanity, so it is not so much horror as "I can't wait to see the Great Old One and go insane."

I do not run call of Cthulhu correctly. I love the game, I love the mythos, but I have not found someone to run it well. I certainly do not run it well. My players had fun but I did not get the fear across, I got the Cthulhu is so cool across.

I started Running Carrion Crown AP as well, but I am really reflecting if I am doing that correctly.

I am not the best horror guy.
For example I watch Hellraiser and think. My Ranger would kick pinhead's arse, he is not that scary.


----------



## ShadowDenizen (Aug 19, 2011)

While I have been on a "Dread" kick recently, I think Call of Cthulhu is hands-down the best horror RPG on the market.  (I also dig all the Cthulhu variants, such as "Realms of Cthulhu", "Trails of Cthulhu", etc.)

I can't speak to NWoD, since I haven't been collecting it.  (I have nearly everyting produced for OWoD, and couldn't bring myself to upgrade.)

That said, It's unfortunate that Chaosium has been overshadowed lately by it's licensees (Pelgrane Press and Miskatonic River have been putting out spectacular stuff recently, in the form of the "Cthulhu Apocalypse" set,the "Purist Adventures" colelction,  the "Legacy of Arrius Lurco" for Invictus, and "Our Lady of Sorrows" for Cthulhu now.)  

In contrast, sadly, the Chaosium re-release of "Curse of the Cthonians" was underwheling; I would have hoped that they'd re-playtest the scenarios under the new rules, maybe do some copy-editing and adjusting, but it seems to be [to my admittedly untrained eye] an exact reprint of the original, albeit in larger font with a larger cover price.  

Actually, the most fun we had recently was a Dread game I ran, in which I translated a CoC scenario ("Agony at Sea", a Cthulhu D20 timed-scenario set aboard the Titanic.);  it worked shockingly well, especially with the timer running….  There was some combat sequences that I was able to adjust to the Dread format, but everything else gelled nicely, IMO.


----------



## MortonStromgal (Aug 19, 2011)

WOD can be a horror game, but its more along the lines of "what have I done" than "ack zombies". Your Jack in the Shinning as opposed to playing his family. Its about fighting your own nature less you fall into darkness. I think mostly its not played that way though.


----------



## SSquirrel (Aug 21, 2011)

I'm a big fan of both CoC and OWoD.  NWoD can go bite me.  I've played OWoD where we were focusing on a game about our humanities and you saw people's characters losing control and the regret they experienced at the things they had done.  There were some pretty horrible things going on and it was a pretty satisfying experience.  CoC was something I played extensively in college and had a lot of fun with.  We were playing it as Cthulhutech years prior to that GURPS supplement.  Having a great keeper meant we had plenty of around the table laughs, but there was also some pretty horrific changes happening to the group and it's CoC, someone went crazy pretty often


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Aug 21, 2011)

DragonLancer said:


> I GM both games and they both provide different approaches to the horror gaming genre. WoD is about playing monsters, and CoC is about investigative horror. Of the two, CoC is by far the best though once players know anything of it the game does lose something.



People in this thread keep using "WoD" wrong. If you are playing _just_ World of Darkness, you're not any sort of monster: You're a human in a world full of terrifying, unknowable crap. In other words, pretty comparable to CoC, minus the plushies.

Most of the add-ons to WoD do have you playing monsters, but arguably the best one, Hunter: The Vigil is human beings taking up baseball bats, shotguns and crucifixes to take back the night from the monsters. And given the moral and sanity degeneration built into the game, it's even more comparable to CoC, albeit with the possibility of higher-powered play at Tier 3 (worldwide hunter conspiracies, one of three default levels supported by the game).


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Aug 21, 2011)

Mournblade94 said:


> I don't see World of Darkness as a horror game, anymore than Twilight is a horror film. World of Darkness seems to be exploring humanities darker side, (Regardless if you play Vamp, Werewolf, mage, changeling) we are still exploring that side of our psyche since all the players are human if their characters aren't.



The most successful horror fiction, in whatever medium, is all about exploring humanity's darker side. Otherwise, it's just a mismatched action adventure.


----------



## Achan hiArusa (Aug 21, 2011)

In terms of darkness both CoC and WoD hold candles to Kult.  And it depends on how you run.  It's easy to forget in WoD that if you are playing a monster you are a monster and the worst part is that you aren't even the biggest baddest monster out there.  The vampires have their elders, the Werewolves the spirits they fight (or the Wyrm depending on the edition), the Mages have the Oracles and other creatures, the Changelings the True Fae, and so on.  You have to keep them between the rock and hard place between the mortal world and those more powerful than they are and you can't play it fair.  If you plot against an elder remember he has seen your tactics done by a group of Ancillae in 1848 before and he has ghouls who can keep up with all that strange technology (not that he doesn't have the intelligence to learn himself).

And you can throw in elements of CoC, Kult, and Unknown Armies to keep your characters on their toes.

And yes, Dread is the only game I've ever played that has made me scream.


----------



## DragonLancer (Aug 22, 2011)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> People in this thread keep using "WoD" wrong. If you are playing _just_ World of Darkness, you're not any sort of monster: You're a human in a world full of terrifying, unknowable crap. In other words, pretty comparable to CoC, minus the plushies.




Yes and no. WoD games is what's being discussed, so that's mortal as well as monstrous.


----------



## Mournblade94 (Aug 22, 2011)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> The most successful horror fiction, in whatever medium, is all about exploring humanity's darker side. Otherwise, it's just a mismatched action adventure.



 That very well may be why I do nto have a nack for running for Horror games.

The horror movies I have been into are all supernatural or demonic.  The psychothrillers I never find that exciting.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Aug 22, 2011)

Mournblade94 said:


> That very well may be why I do nto have a nack for running for Horror games.
> 
> The horror movies I have been into are all supernatural or demonic.  The psychothrillers I never find that exciting.



Even the supernatural and demonic ones are about people's fundamental inhumanity, even if it's only shown in metaphorical form -- the horrible little kid in the Omen may be the Antichrist, but fundementally, he's about showing what happens when you strip away morality and empathy from a person. He could be a serial killer just as easily as the Antichrist.


----------



## SSquirrel (Aug 22, 2011)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> People in this thread keep using "WoD" wrong. If you are playing _just_ World of Darkness, you're not any sort of monster: You're a human in a world full of terrifying, unknowable crap. In other words, pretty comparable to CoC, minus the plushies.
> 
> Most of the add-ons to WoD do have you playing monsters, but arguably the best one, Hunter: The Vigil is human beings taking up baseball bats, shotguns and crucifixes to take back the night from the monsters. And given the moral and sanity degeneration built into the game, it's even more comparable to CoC, albeit with the possibility of higher-powered play at Tier 3 (worldwide hunter conspiracies, one of three default levels supported by the game).




In OWoD, it wasn't until much later that there were really rules for playing normal mortals.  In NWoD, unless you buy the various other books, designing the core mortal is all that is covered in the main WoD book.  Then you pick up Vamp or Werewolf or Changeling or Mage and make them something more if you want.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Aug 22, 2011)

SSquirrel said:


> In OWoD, it wasn't until much later that there were really rules for playing normal mortals.



The Hunters Hunted came out in the first or second year after Vampire: The Masquerade was released. I don't think they ever had a more normal mortal book than that, although maybe Mafia -- the second of two "hey, play an ethnic group!" books they did back then -- would qualify. So, assuming you were OK with playing some Arcanum guy who would die about two seconds after laying eyes on a vampire, you could play a mortal as of 1992.

I'm not sure how many people actually did, though. Playing mortals seems to be a lot more popular now. It certainly receives a lot more support.


----------



## MortonStromgal (Aug 22, 2011)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> The Hunters Hunted came out in the first or second year after Vampire: The Masquerade was released. I don't think they ever had a more normal mortal book than that, although maybe Mafia -- the second of two "hey, play an ethnic group!" books they did back then -- would qualify. So, assuming you were OK with playing some Arcanum guy who would die about two seconds after laying eyes on a vampire, you could play a mortal as of 1992.
> 
> I'm not sure how many people actually did, though. Playing mortals seems to be a lot more popular now. It certainly receives a lot more support.




You could but it was a supplement, like Dark Ages Mage, you needed the Vampire book in order to have the core rules. I can't just pickup up Complete Warrior and have a D&D game, I need the Players Handbook. Thus why WOD represents the whole line not just mortals.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Aug 22, 2011)

MortonStromgal said:


> You could but it was a supplement, like Dark Ages Mage, you needed the Vampire book in order to have the core rules. I can't just pickup up Complete Warrior and have a D&D game, I need the Players Handbook. Thus why WOD represents the whole line not just mortals.



The core in-print WoD book -- called "World of Darkness" right on the cover -- is explicitly the mortals book. Has been, for years now. It is, in fact, standalone, and it's Vampire: The Requiem and all the other books (other than Innocents -- which is a mortals game based around kids) that are the supplements, nowadays.

If people want to talk about the whole line, they should be more specific, since there's a fair amount of people who genuinely don't seem to be up on the nWoD posting on this thread and who are getting, presumably accidentally, a pretty skewed version of how things actually are nowadays.


----------



## MortonStromgal (Aug 22, 2011)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> The core in-print WoD book -- called "World of Darkness" right on the cover -- is explicitly the mortals book. Has been, for years now. It is, in fact, standalone, and it's Vampire: The Requiem and all the other books (other than Innocents -- which is a mortals game based around kids) that are the supplements, nowadays.
> 
> If people want to talk about the whole line, they should be more specific, since there's a fair amount of people who genuinely don't seem to be up on the nWoD posting on this thread and who are getting, presumably accidentally, a pretty skewed version of how things actually are nowadays.




Pot calling Kettle? You chose Hunter's Hunted as your example! I'm well aware of nWOD but both nWOD and cWOD are World of Darkness.

[edit] and if you want to get into details about it VtM is available POD and the new V20 version (and werewolf soon to follow) so that makes cWOD more nWOD than nWOD I guess... Nothing wrong with nWOD but WW/CCP is going to support both lines from here until the money runs out.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Aug 23, 2011)

MortonStromgal said:


> Pot calling Kettle? You chose Hunter's Hunted as your example! I'm well aware of nWOD but both nWOD and cWOD are World of Darkness.
> 
> [edit] and if you want to get into details about it VtM is available POD and the new V20 version (and werewolf soon to follow) so that makes cWOD more nWOD than nWOD I guess... Nothing wrong with nWOD but WW/CCP is going to support both lines from here until the money runs out.



I feel like you skipped a bunch of posts in this thread.


----------



## GrimGent (Oct 1, 2011)

Jhaelen said:


> Similarly, in the nWoD Changeling rpg you play a (formerly) normal human that has been kidnapped and taken to the Fae realm and managed to escape back to the real world. The experience has changed you somewhat, but you're still no supernatural creature (and definitely not a 'monster in a dark world').




Well...

The changelings don't strictly speaking qualify as quite human any more, physically or mentally, and what they've been through definitely _has_ left them supernatural through and through. However, that in itself doesn't make them "monsters", except maybe in the eyes of the kind of people who view an exotic skin colour as a lynching offence. The central themes of the game line revolve around building a new life after a traumatic stay in Faerie, and the Lost have no inherent reason to harm anyone except the Gentry and their minions. Rather, they have time-honoured traditions of protecting those that they care about from otherworldly dangers, guarding mortal dreams against fae depredations, and preventing others from being changed as they were. Changelings are basically people like anyone else (some good, some bad, most somewhere in between), but it's an explicit setting conceit that the PC types stand in for the "fairy godmothers and guardian angels" from the old tales, the "Good Neighbours" who may actually care about humanity's well-being, unlike the lords and ladies of Faerie.

In comparison with _CoC_, one interesting detail about _Changeling: The Lost_ is that it replaces the Storytelling System's customary Morality (or equivalent) with a sanity mechanic, in the form of Clarity which measures the ability to distinguish fantasy from reality, the supernatural from the natural, and what shouldn't exist on Earth from what should. Unlike Morality, it may be reduced not so much by what the characters _do_ as by what they _experience_, potentially under circumstances over which they have no control. For example, being fired from a job or learning about the death of a friend can threaten the mental balance... but so could even finding a demanding new job with excellent benefits or getting married after a whirlwind romance. Encountering the Gentry? The worst of shocks! And obviously, this also means that a character with low Clarity isn't necessarily a "bad person" in any way, simply... unhinged. Therapy helps.

And yes, as already mentioned earlier in the thread, the new _WoD_ at its heart is all about regular folks facing the unknown, not unlike _CoC_. _CtL_, and the other similar lines as well, is essentially an expansion set for the basic game and requires it to play. "Changeling", like "vampire" or "mage", is that expansion's featured major template which may be applied to a mortal character, either straight out of chargen or later during a campaign. But by default, all the PCs are mortal with no special powers, and a typical group might consist of, for instance, just a cop, a reporter, and a teacher.

One day I'd like to run a game based on no other setting material than that "Voice of the Angel" piece from the core book, all about the mysteries of the God-Machine disrupting everyday life and with the more nebulous "Second Children" instead of the familiar roster of WoD supernaturals.


----------



## Bedrockgames (Oct 2, 2011)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> The most successful horror fiction, in whatever medium, is all about exploring humanity's darker side. Otherwise, it's just a mismatched action adventure.




Interesting discussion point. I hope you won't take offense if I agree somewhat and offer an alternative observation. I think the darker side of humanity is a strong element in horror, but I think much of it also also about confronting our own mortality and fragility. What I find scary about zombie films for example isn't that it highlights humanity's darker side (though that is a common theme in zombie movies) but that the visual of a zombie basically says "look this was a person just like you, and now he is a disfigured shell: this could be you". Maybe this aspect of horror is just something I am noticing because I've been sick lately, but I suspect it is pretty universally shared.


----------



## Plane Sailing (Oct 2, 2011)

I think that the best horror games that I've played in have probably been Dread. However, I don't know that I'd be able to run a good Dread game; I'm more familiar with traditional adventure design and so for myself I'd choose CoC over WoD. I have used CoC adventures in many Sci-Fi games I've run though, so I think it is more about the principles of the adventure than the game system itself.

Apart from the aforementioned Dread, that is. Don't know if I could run a campaign with that system though.


----------

