# Vecna v Acererak v Larloch? Who's The Most Powerful Lich?



## LuisCarlos17f (Mar 31, 2019)

Vecna is a god, he escaped from the demiplane of dread, Acerack is now a vestige for binders who practice pact magic. 

Vecna could have got a secret lodge of followers in Faerun and in another worlds, and only their own members would know.


----------



## dwayne (Mar 31, 2019)

Vecna I have heard of the other two, not so much as vecna has been a god and has much more power i would say vecna could take him with a hand behind his back.


----------



## Tlalchitonatiuh (Mar 31, 2019)

Acererak has long since ceased being a vestige. He is reconstituted and, when last seen, is in the form of an arch-lich again.


----------



## Jacob Lewis (Mar 31, 2019)




----------



## werecorpse (Mar 31, 2019)

Vecna #1
everyone else, who cares?


----------



## EthanSental (Mar 31, 2019)

Classic and always fun discussions...along the lines or hulk vs Thor vs Superman discussions


----------



## murquhart72 (Mar 31, 2019)

All I gotta say is, Vecna's a GOD sooo... Plus, who in the Nine Hells is Larloch (he asked rhetorically)?


----------



## Maxperson (Mar 31, 2019)

I'm going to jump on the Vecna is a god bandwagon.  The other two are powerful, but they can't go toe-to-toe with a god.


----------



## doctorhook (Mar 31, 2019)

I’m not familiar with Larloch. Where’s he from?


----------



## Maxperson (Mar 31, 2019)

doctorhook said:


> I’m not familiar with Larloch. Where’s he from?




The Loch Ness, where else?


----------



## Henry (Mar 31, 2019)

Lich, please. Everyone knows that Vecna would wipe the astral floor with those two...


----------



## DND_Reborn (Mar 31, 2019)

Considering I have never even heard of the other two... I would have to vote for Vecna myself. Maybe a poll would be useful?


----------



## Satyrn (Mar 31, 2019)

Batlich. Since he can beat Superlich, he can beat any lich.


But seriously . . . "seriously" heh . . . I'll go with Vecna as my sentimental favorite. I hope that's not like cheering for the Bills.


----------



## Joseph Nardo (Mar 31, 2019)

Considering that in tomb of annihilation, acerack killed several gods.....


----------



## Lylandra (Mar 31, 2019)

doctorhook said:


> I’m not familiar with Larloch. Where’s he from?




I guess Larloch would say "mission accomplished". 

You'll  most likely have heard of Szass Tam of the Red Wizards though. He's kind  of the only one Larloch has taken as "apprentice".


----------



## Dioltach (Mar 31, 2019)

A more intriguing matchup: Vecna or Sithrak?


----------



## Blue (Mar 31, 2019)

Larloch was so behind the scenes that even the DMs haven't heard from him - so he has never existed in many (most?) worlds.

It seems he appeared in two FR books (not part of my consumption of the hobby) and a single AD&D 2nd ed product (Netheril: Empire of Magic) and hasn't been reprinted since WotC acquired D&D.  Was also a bit part in Balder's Gate II: Electric Boogaloo ... I mean Extended Edition.

Anyway, Vecna can wipe the floor with upstart Acererak.


----------



## Alzrius (Mar 31, 2019)

Blue said:


> Larloch was so behind the scenes that even the DMs haven't heard from him - so he has never existed in many (most?) worlds.
> 
> It seems he appeared in two FR books (not part of my consumption of the hobby) and a single AD&D 2nd ed product (Netheril: Empire of Magic) and hasn't been reprinted since WotC acquired D&D.  Was also a bit part in Balder's Gate II: Electric Boogaloo ... I mean Extended Edition.




He was given a stat block in the 3E _Lords of Darkness_ book. That portrays him as being a "wizard 20/epic 12" lich (those stats predate the _Epic Level Handbook_, so they look a bit wonky when viewed through that lens). As I recall, that's also more than ten levels below what Ed has typically said Larloch's level is.


----------



## Iry (Mar 31, 2019)

Vecna is certainly the most powerful on this list, from a raw supernatural might standpoint.
Larloch is the most interesting and intelligent on this list, and he has giant piles of artifacts and allies.
Acererak is bringing up the rear, even with his god killing potential. The other two are that strong.


Blue said:


> It seems he appeared in two FR books (not part of my consumption of the hobby) and a single AD&D 2nd ed product (Netheril: Empire of Magic) and hasn't been reprinted since WotC acquired D&D.  Was also a bit part in Balder's Gate II: Electric Boogaloo ... I mean Extended Edition.



From various publications, including Dragon magazine and some Q&A with Ed Greenwood on the old Candlekeep forums, Larloch is...

Creator of all those Larloch's Touch spells.
The FR-universe origin of the word Warlock.
The chosen of a former Mystara (Mystryl)
Knows all Netheril spells, except the one Karsus used (not that he would use it).
Knows a spell that can snuff out stars.
Has a bargain with the gods of FR where he keeps his Netheril spells, in exchange for "accidentally" teaching people new spells and restocking ancient ruins like Eliminster does.
Has been entrusted with the secret of killing all non AO Forgotten Realms gods if they ever get completely out of control.
Is working on building stable dimensional bridges between... I don't remember, actually. He hasn't succeeded yet.
Oversees a hive mind of 40+ liches.
Had at least two Death Moon Orbs.
Szass Tam was and might still be his apprentice.
Has 24+ Ioun Stones around his head (this is just funny).

He recently made the attempt to become a Greater God, which would have put him over Vecna (power wise). But that didn't work out thanks to Elminster and Srinshee pulling a fast one.


----------



## JeffB (Mar 31, 2019)

I suspect far more characters have died messing around w/Acererak and his abode than the other two.


----------



## CM (Mar 31, 2019)

Should've included Szass Tam in the question.


----------



## Iry (Mar 31, 2019)

CM said:


> Should've included Szass Tam in the question.



Tam doesn't have much on Larloch, since he literally went to Larloch and said "Notice me, Senpai."
Though, to his credit he did get noticed.



			
				Szass Tam and Larloch said:
			
		

> The dusty corridors of Warlock’s Keep led everywhere and yet nowhere, but Szass Tam knew where he was going. Walking through seemingly solid walls, Thay’s Zulkir of Necromancy felt his body magically whisked away to deeper and darker chambers of the Keep. The lich glanced around the halls as he walked‚ noting the many traps that would have destroyed a mortal form that walked these halls.
> 
> “Larloch!” Szass called out, entering an ancient library. “I bring part of the payment that I promised you. Show yourself.”
> 
> ...


----------



## Elderbrain (Mar 31, 2019)

Vecna. He managed to get into Sigil, the City of Doors, against the Lady of Pain's will - an impossible feat - despite the fact that gods are banned there. If it weren't for the arrival of the PCs in the adventure "Die, Vecna, Die!", he would've destroyed the Great Wheel cosmology and been in a position to remake reality as he desired, possibly gaining total control of everything. Even in failure, he retained his godhood.


----------



## Iry (Apr 1, 2019)

JeffB said:


> I suspect far more characters have died messing around w/Acererak and his abode than the other two.



Vecna probably wins the bodycount award for Die Vecna, Die since he caused entire planes of existence to collide or drift off. There's no way to know how many people Larloch has killed because he's a mastermind/puppet master archetype that doesn't focus on killing or conquering territory.

As a side note, I would wager Acererak has a large bodycount from his days as Vecna's general than all the people his tomb has ever killed. Despite it being considerably more famous.


----------



## Tales and Chronicles (Apr 1, 2019)

Taken from ToA:
""Although he's powerful enough to pursue godhood as other liches have done (Vecna being a prime example), Acerak has no interest in being a god or being worshiped. He prefers to create evil god and unleash them on mortals and immortals who opose him.''

Being able to be a god but sayin' "meh, I dont care, I'd rather be the one creating gods, that's cooler'' makes you a total bada**.


----------



## Henry (Apr 1, 2019)

Iry said:


> Vecna probably wins the bodycount award for Die Vecna, Die since he caused entire planes of existence to collide or drift off. There's no way to know how many people Larloch has killed because he's a mastermind/puppet master archetype that doesn't focus on killing or conquering territory.
> 
> As a side note, I would wager Acererak has a large bodycount from his days as Vecna's general than all the people his tomb has ever killed. Despite it being considerably more famous.




I would have to say that this points to an interesting parallel. Though Vecna may well be more powerful than Larloch, Larloch is definitely wiser. Vecna makes all these cunning, yet aggressive, complex plans for domination, and though he frequently comes close, he always gets derailed or stopped. Larloch works through powerful intermediaries, keeps a low profile, and actuated his plans very carefully, subtly so that adventurers and meddling do-gooders don’t try to stop the, because they probably don’t even know it’s happening. Vecna craves worship and power, but Larloch craves his will to be done, and doesn’t care how it happens.


----------



## Iry (Apr 1, 2019)

Henry said:


> I would have to say that this points to an interesting parallel. Though Vecna may well be more powerful than Larloch, Larloch is definitely wiser. Vecna makes all these cunning, yet aggressive, complex plans for domination, and though he frequently comes close, he always gets derailed or stopped. Larloch works through powerful intermediaries, keeps a low profile, and actuated his plans very carefully, subtly so that adventurers and meddling do-gooders don’t try to stop the, because they probably don’t even know it’s happening. Vecna craves worship and power, but Larloch craves his will to be done, and doesn’t care how it happens.



I certainly agree. Vecna has more in common with a Sorcerer than a Wizard (I feel like Xykon draws a lot of inspiration from Vecna). He is strong willed, ambitious, and willing to make incredibly bold moves... but he never comes off as especially intelligent. At least not moreso than a reasonably intelligent player. He certainly makes for a great and memorable villain either way.

Larloch is definition of Lawful Evil - methodical, intentional, and frequently successful evil. He sits in the darkness of his lair sipping undead tea, amassing tremendous arcane might, trading spells and major artifacts while browsing wikipedia (Nether Scroll). When he takes action he makes sure that almost nobody realizes he is involved, except in the most extreme cases (Candlekeep, Myth Drannor) and enjoys his privacy. The few times he has gotten sloppy resulted in over 200 liches attacking Myth Drannor and almost destroying the place, to which he showed up afterwards and apologized, claiming it was just an experiment to see what they would think up if he gave them freedom. And on the few occasions when someone does manage to kill him, it turns out to have been a Doom-Bot all along.

As for Acererak, it's extremely telling that for all his power he was still just an underling of Vecna... and Larloch keeps a guy just like him chained up in his basement writing library books.


----------



## Professor Murder (Apr 1, 2019)

The correct answer is Azalin.


----------



## Hussar (Apr 1, 2019)

Iry said:


> snip
> Had at least two Death Moon Orbs.
> /snip.




That's not a moon...

No idea what a Death Moon Orb is, but, then again, I have to admit, this is the first time I've ever heard the name Larloch.  Yeesh.


----------



## Khisanth the Ancient (Apr 1, 2019)

Professor Murder said:


> The correct answer is Azalin.




Azalin is a big fish in his small pond of Ravenloft, but he doesn't really compare on this scale -- IIRC he's 18th level (in 2e), and as his curse is that he can't learn any new magic, he can't advance. So he's really not comparable with anyone 20th-level-plus, much less a demigod/god like Vecna.

In terms of accomplishments, he doesn't really compete either, IMO. Ravenloft darklords are kind of "stuck" in terms of having large-scale influence.


----------



## Zardnaar (Apr 1, 2019)

Vecna
Larloch
Acerak

In that order.

Larloch isn't even the most powerful Netherise floating around. He is a lvl 32 lich there's a lvl 41 elder brain Netherise out there.


----------



## Mirtek (Apr 1, 2019)

Joseph Nardo said:


> Considering that in tomb of annihilation, acerack killed several gods.....



 Actually those were not good, just some Spirits with delusions of grandeur that tricked some natives into worshipping them as such.

They were never even close to divine power


----------



## Legend07 (Apr 1, 2019)

murquhart72 said:


> All I gotta say is, Vecna's a GOD sooo... Plus, who in the Nine Hells is Larloch (he asked rhetorically)?




Exactly as he plans it. Working from the shadows.


----------



## jasper (Apr 1, 2019)

Vecna has two artifacts. Acererak appeared in Tomb of Horrors and has his own jungle adventure book. Never heard of Larloch.


----------



## Maxperson (Apr 1, 2019)

jasper said:


> Vecna has two artifacts. Acererak appeared in Tomb of Horrors and has his own jungle adventure book. Never heard of Larloch.




Vecna also earned his stripes in game play.  Larloch is just a Mary Sue, which even if he is more powerful, and he isn't, downgrades him in my eyes.


----------



## Mr. Wilson (Apr 1, 2019)

My personal opinion is that Vecna is most likely the most powerful of the three.

With that said, I'd argue that Larloch is the most successful of the three and therefore the most dangerous of the three.  

Larloch has more powerful minions as his accountant than Acererak.

And still, with all that said, it's entirely possible Acererak has the highest PC Count between Tomb of Horrors and Tomb of Annihilation.


----------



## Ralif Redhammer (Apr 1, 2019)

Though Vecna, as a deity, is more likely the most powerful, I’m going to go with Acererak, and discount Larloch. Lore is fun and fascinating, but the game is the thing in my book, and Acererak assuredly has had the greatest direct impact on PCs, what with Tomb of Horrors, Return to the Tomb of Horrors, and Tomb of Annihilation. The only part that might give me pause is the appearance of Vecna's hand and eye in the list of artifacts.


----------



## gyor (Apr 1, 2019)

CM said:


> Should've included Szass Tam in the question.




 It's like you read my mind. But I'll add Velsharoon to that list as well.

 For raw power Vecna and Velsharoon are Gods as well as Liches, thatis an auto I win button. 

 My list of regular liches is Szazz Tam,  ruler of Thay. 

 Larloch,  ruler of Warlocks Crypt

 Acerarak,  dungeon master.


----------



## lowkey13 (Apr 1, 2019)

*Deleted by user*


----------



## ParanoydStyle (Apr 1, 2019)

My vote will always be for Vecna.


----------



## Arnwolf666 (Apr 1, 2019)

Becoming a god would make Larloch too weak


----------



## Arnwolf666 (Apr 1, 2019)

Becoming a god would make Larloch too weak. He would have to work to keep worshippers happy.  Not being a god be can manipulate from a distance, in the shadows, and unknown to the worlds he dominates.


----------



## D1Tremere (Apr 1, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> Every Gamer Goes (ahem): Vecna is the most powerful, awesomest, best known Lich ever; even parts of Vecna are all-powerful artifacts.
> 
> Ed Greenwood: Well, yeah, but Larloch is more powerful. Elminster told me so.
> 
> ...




"When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all." - God Entity Futurama

Larloch is one of the oldest and most powerful magic users in the FRs (A world much more magic heavy than Greyhawk). He created an army of over 200 liches who almost managed to corrupt the weave and wipe out the knights of Myth Drannor. He survived the fall of Netheril and the spellplague. He created a new class of magic items, along with many unique artifacts and spells. He also rules a city of undead. Best of all, every time gods and heroes try to come down on him for the actions of his creations he tells them all off because all he did was give his creations free will.

Vecna couldn't even control his own vampire stooge, who's artifact sword is arguably more powerful than Vecna's hand and eye (though to be fair Vecna did create it). He was destroyed on multiple occasions, and bested by adventurer's even after becoming a greater god. His cult seems to be his only real source of power, as he has so many powerful enemies who openly oppose him that he can't sneeze without catching a beatdown. Bottom line, being a god is not all it is cracked up to be, and even a god who hails from from Greyhawk pales in comparison to a Netherese Lichking.


----------



## lkj (Apr 2, 2019)

I believe I have the definitive answer to this question:

Whichever one you happen to think is coolest. 

AD


----------



## Hussar (Apr 2, 2019)

When did Larlock do all this stuff?  This is the first time I've ever heard of him.  Is this in the novels?


----------



## D1Tremere (Apr 2, 2019)

Hussar said:


> When did Larlock do all this stuff?  This is the first time I've ever heard of him.  Is this in the novels?




Volo's Guide to the Sword Coast, Lords of Darkness, Netheril Empire of Magic, Etc.


----------



## grimslade (Apr 2, 2019)

Larloch is a Mary Sue, a foil for Greenwood's other Mary Sue, Elminster. He is the bogeyman to make Elminster's deeds seem greater.
Vecna is the ruler of the Spider Throne, the Whispered One, Master of Secrets and Lies. To whisper his name is to provoke his notice. The entirety of the multiverse is impacted by his designs. Why is this even a conversation?


----------



## D1Tremere (Apr 2, 2019)

grimslade said:


> Larloch is a Mary Sue, a foil for Greenwood's other Mary Sue, Elminster. He is the bogeyman to make Elminster's deeds seem greater.
> Vecna is the ruler of the Spider Throne, the Whispered One, Master of Secrets and Lies. To whisper his name is to provoke his notice. The entirety of the multiverse is impacted by his designs. Why is this even a conversation?




Those are fancy titles, but what has he done? He was a major god for a hot minute before getting kicked out of Sigil by no one worth mentioning. Got owned by his own creations on multiple occasions. He was locked up in Ravenloft for a good while. 
I hate to go there, but Vecna is basically Anakin Skywalker. He becomes bitter and twisted because his mother is killed and his right hand man cuts off a bunch of his body parts. He then gets defeated by a bunch of rag tag newcomers just as he is about to achieve true power.


----------



## MockingBird (Apr 2, 2019)

I'm a fan of Acererak. Mainly just because hes the one I know most about. That and Tomb of Annihilation is an awesome adventure. I mean he created or found a device to cause permadeath. Plus the DMG cover art is the best out of the core books.


----------



## Iry (Apr 2, 2019)

Hussar said:


> When did Larlock do all this stuff?  This is the first time I've ever heard of him.  Is this in the novels?



Larloch is one of those villains who never seems to get much screen time. He has been in a few novels and publications, but the lions share of his lore comes from articles in Dragon Magazine and Ed Greenwood himself discussing Faerun lore that he is allowed to discuss outside of NDA.

Vecna gets a huge amount of love because he's basically Skeletor. He shows up every saturday morning with a new plot for world domination and almost succeeds, if it weren't for those meddling kids. Even I love him for that (I'm honestly just a big lich fanboy). But it's the fact that he shows up to be defeated (and has some very memorable artifacts) that he gets adventures.

Acererak is infamous for murdering PCs. He's got some lore about working for Vecna and other things he's managed to pull off, but people remember with great fondness the various iterations of Tomb of Horrors (and most recently Tomb of Annihilation). But at his core, his dungeons were made to be eventually overcome and plundered.

Larloch was never intended to be defeated. He's just a spooky ominous foil for the DM to move and shake things at their own table. Ed Greenwood honestly describes him best:



			
				Ed Greenwood said:
			
		

> Ah, yes, Larloch. You’ll get to see him (briefly) in my story in REALMS OF THE ELVES, and that appearance will show that as Faraer asked, he can be whimsical, and he knows both boredom and a personal code of honour. It was never my intention to use Larloch to humble PCs (brute force doesn’t humble anyone - - only the ability to awe players does), but - - as with the gods - - he can of course be used that way.
> 
> It was my intention, as I was turning the Realms from a purely fictional setting to a 1978-version AD&D game setting, to make it as realistic as possible. One of the necessities in doing that, and in giving PCs challenges, is to have entities around (gods, demigods and divine servants, heads of churches, temporal rulers, established high-level adventurers, and so on) who are stronger than the PCs. This not only gives them future foes and “standards” to measure themselves against and aspire to surpassing, it makes the world seem ongoing rather than newly-created around the PCs as an artificial obstacle course.
> 
> ...






			
				Ed Greenwood said:
			
		

> In the same way as too many PC dragonslayings depend upon the dragon being played as a dumb brute, it’s highly unlikely that any PC party will have the sheer power to take down Larloch - - and in any war of attrition against his many, many liches and modified powerful undead minions (forty blazing bones over here, a demi-lich over there, various hulking gigantic undead concoted of many battle dead yonder,deceptions galore ("That wasn't Larloch, that was your KING enspelled to look like Larloch! NOW you're in trouble!"), traps that release disease, poisoned this, poisoned that [like, ahem, the PCs’ drinking water] etc. etc.), a party of PCs would have to be stupid indeed not to figure out that destroying Larloch just isn’t worth the effort.
> 
> Like most gods in most situations, Larloch doesn’t NEED to stand and fight when it’s not to his advantage. Like gods, he doesn’t need to sleep, and most PCs do. So he’ll just have his minions harry them until they're stumbling-exhausted, and then throw MORE minions at them. Larloch isn’t insane or stupid enough to need to show up in person to gloat; subtly controlling things from afar is what he DOES, and enjoys. So PCs can expect to find themselves attacked by civil authorities in whatever realm they’re in, and then brigands, and then a few guilds, never being allowed to sleep without yet another undead attack - - and even zombies and skeletons can wear you down when they come in waves, dozens daily, for day after night after month.
> 
> ...






			
				Lady Hooded / Ed Greenwood said:
			
		

> I take the view that if a DM tells you that a city your PCs are visiting is surrounded by a ring of hills, it requires a lot of PC insanity to try to destroy the hills “just because they’re there.” Consider Larloch a hill, part of the furniture of the Realms Ed has presented to you, not a target. Sounds like the very worst sort of power-gaming to me, and although we all need an outlet to just SMASH something once in a while, I’d hesitate to call this approach “roleplaying.”
> 
> However, to deal specifically with some of the queries raised about Larloch here and on the Realms-list (and if a Candlekeep scribe would be kind enough to repost this entire reply over there, I’d be grateful): I have NEVER postulated Larloch as a being who “cannot be destroyed.” I have suggested that PC attempts to down him reveal stooge-lich after stooge-lich (so that a PC who wants to talk to Larloch and manages to pique his curiosity enough to get an audience could indeed chat, and if they entertained Larloch enough could gain courteous, useful answers from him - - though to a good DM this would be a great chance to roleplay a “difficult” conversation that leaves the PCs involved quaking in their boots, throughout - - but a PC who thought they could dupe Larloch into a party ambush by trying to talk with him would discover that they’d destroyed not the real Larloch, but merely one of his many, many servitor liches, whom he was speaking through).
> 
> ...






			
				Ed Greenwood said:
			
		

> As Faraer correctly pointed out here (back in November 2004): “The Realms has always worked on the principle that NPCs can do whatever the DM needs them to do, not what the books say, this being a storytelling game rather than a referencing game.” So DMs should feel free to change NPCs to their hearts’ content.
> 
> As for Elf_Friend’s question about Larloch’s rivals, this just makes me sigh. The problem with gamers wanting to take down powerful NPCs (and published Realms sourcebooks providing ultra-detailed stats for said NPCs) is that too often the Hammer Problem arises (the old saying: “To a man with a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail.”). We all rush past trying to understand the aims, motives, and essential character of an NPC to get to the crunch details of how we can best him in combat.
> 
> ...


----------



## Maxperson (Apr 2, 2019)

D1Tremere said:


> Those are fancy titles, but what has he done? He was a major god for a hot minute before getting kicked out of Sigil by no one worth mentioning. Got owned by his own creations on multiple occasions. He was locked up in Ravenloft for a good while.
> I hate to go there, but Vecna is basically Anakin Skywalker. He becomes bitter and twisted because his mother is killed and his right hand man cuts off a bunch of his body parts. He then gets defeated by a bunch of rag tag newcomers just as he is about to achieve true power.




At least Vecna did stuff.  Larloch has literally done nothing.  He's just a Mary Sue write-up.


----------



## cbwjm (Apr 2, 2019)

Larloch gets my vote as the most powerful, or at least to me, the most interesting lich of all three.


----------



## Iry (Apr 2, 2019)

Maxperson said:


> At least Vecna did stuff.  Larloch has literally done nothing.  He's just a Mary Sue write-up.



I don’t think anyone can top what Vecna did in Sigil. But let’s not forget the near annihilation of Myth Drannor, giving Szass Tam a Death Moon Orb and Thakorsil’s Seat, allowing  sanctuary to a clone of Manshoon, saving Mystra’s life during the Spellplague, making an active attempt to become the God of Magic himself, and is a Warlock Patron in 5E.

Ioulaum is the one that has literally done nothing.


----------



## S'mon (Apr 2, 2019)

I think authors tend to favour their own creations... You could ask Ed whether Mordenkainen or Elminster is the greater wizard & get a similar answer.


----------



## Iry (Apr 2, 2019)

S'mon said:


> I think authors tend to favour their own creations... You could ask Ed whether Mordenkainen or Elminster is the greater wizard & get a similar answer.



I definitely recommend reading The Wizards Three articles from Dragon Magazine, for entertainment value alone.


			
				“Wizards Three” said:
			
		

> “A good idea,” the Mage of Greyhawk went on. ”I’m pleased that we can trust each other this far.” He fell silent, and they stared levelly into each others’ eyes for a long, cold moment.
> 
> Flames seemed to leap and whirl in Elminster’s eyes, just for an instant. ”Aye,” he said. ”Krynn . . . whom can we trust, to speak for that world? Mirthful old Fizban is gone, and we know now—too late—what he truly was.”
> 
> ...


----------



## GreyLord (Apr 2, 2019)

It is simple, in the Forgotten Realms, Larloch is the most powerful in regards to Greenwood's description.

He has NO power to really be powerful outside of anything beyond Greenwood's control.

In Greyhawk, if Gary were still alive and someone tried to tell him Larloch was most powerful and force that opinion on him...more than likely Larloch's apparent power would be seen less then a 1st level M-U and Gary would say...and now...what were we doing?

If one wants to cede Greenwood's thoughts on their campaigns, then Larloch can be the most powerful in their campaign as well.

However, in D&D Lore that Greenwood has not been able to touch, Larloch is largely a Mary Sue villain that Greenwood can use to pester high level NPC's (and occasionally PC's) and otherwise is largely powerless in relation to being a mover and shaker.

Thus, in the Forgotten Realms, Larloch is extremely powerful, able to even negate the High Lords of the outer planes in his wishes.

In the rest of the D&D universe...highly irrelevant and not all that powerful. 

THAT's the REAL reason no one has really heard of him, not because he's some behind the scenes mover and shaker outside of the Forgotten Realms.  Any creator of their own world beyond the realms would say...that's nice, but Larloch didn't cause ANY such things to happen and if they think so, it's only in the flights of fancy and imagination because they have no power to influence anything of that sort in any way they think they do.  In my world Larloch doesn't even have the power to appear, much less influence a fly.

It then falls on each campaign or world's creator or DM to determine (if they even want to, some may have no desire to even categorize) who or what is the most powerful.

TLDR;  Larloch is most powerful in the Realms, outside the Realms and Greenwood's worlds...normally he's not relevant.  Vecna most likely would take top place in those, but even then it's up to each world's creator.


----------



## jasper (Apr 2, 2019)

Hussar said:


> When did Larlock do all this stuff?  This is the first time I've ever heard of him.  Is this in the novels?



And so I can do good research, send me the ebooks with him in them. Otherwise did not happen. Signed print copies using the author's blood will be acceptable too.


----------



## lowkey13 (Apr 2, 2019)

*Deleted by user*


----------



## Dausuul (Apr 2, 2019)

View attachment 105683


----------



## gyor (Apr 2, 2019)

Dausuul said:


> View attachment 105683




 He is already happening and has been happening for along time now.


----------



## gyor (Apr 2, 2019)

S'mon said:


> I think authors tend to favour their own creations... You could ask Ed whether Mordenkainen or Elminster is the greater wizard & get a similar answer.




 Elmister has been beaten by the Nerf stick so hard,  I would not bet that Ed would say El is stronger then Mord. 

 Elmister is not the most powerful Archwizard in the realms anymore,  I'd argue that exluding Gods Nezram the World Walker is the most powerful Archwizard right now. The most powerful wizard on Faerunthat actually lives on Faerun would be Thoth.


----------



## Mirtek (Apr 2, 2019)

gyor said:


> Elmister has been beaten by the Nerf stick so hard,  I would not bet that Ed would say El is stronger then Mord.
> 
> Elmister is not the most powerful Archwizard in the realms anymore,  I'd argue that exluding Gods Nezram the World Walker is the most powerful Archwizard right now. The most powerful wizard on Faerunthat actually lives on Faerun would be Thoth.



 Mord has been nerfed pretty hard in too in 5e, just look at his sorry level in CoS.

Hallaster however seems to have escaped the nerf hammer


----------



## Ralif Redhammer (Apr 2, 2019)

As silly as they were, I always enjoyed those articles.

If they were to do an undead version of The Wizards Three, I feel like Szass Tam would be invited ahead of Larloch for the Realms. Lord Soth for Krynn, maybe Strahd for Ravenloft (if he can get a hall pass from the Dark Powers), and Vecna and Acererak can fight it out for a seat at that table (maybe play a game of _Joust _to see who gets to go).



Iry said:


> I definitely recommend reading The Wizards Three articles from Dragon Magazine, for entertainment value alone.


----------



## Dausuul (Apr 2, 2019)

Ralif Redhammer said:


> If they were to do an undead version of The Wizards Three, I feel like Szass Tam would be invited ahead of Larloch for the Realms. Lord Soth for Krynn, maybe Strahd for Ravenloft (if he can get a hall pass from the Dark Powers), and Vecna and Acererak can fight it out for a seat at that table (maybe play a game of _Joust _to see who gets to go).



I'd probably go with Fistandantilus over Lord Soth. Soth doesn't seem like the type to attend conferences.


----------



## gyor (Apr 2, 2019)

Iry said:


> I don’t think anyone can top what Vecna did in Sigil. But let’s not forget the near annihilation of Myth Drannor, giving Szass Tam a Death Moon Orb and Thakorsil’s Seat, allowing  sanctuary to a clone of Manshoon, saving Mystra’s life during the Spellplague, making an active attempt to become the God of Magic himself, and is a Warlock Patron in 5E.
> 
> Ioulaum is the one that has literally done nothing.




 Aside from creating Ioun Stones. 

 And both Laroch and Ioulaum used to rule floating Netherese cities right?


----------



## Ralif Redhammer (Apr 2, 2019)

Is Fistandantilus undead or just dead-dead? I know he was a spirit for a time, but then I thought Raistlin went back in time and killed him permanently. Or is my Dragonlance lore out-of-date (a likely possibility, that)?



Dausuul said:


> I'd probably go with Fistandantilus over Lord Soth. Soth doesn't seem like the type to attend conferences.


----------



## Dausuul (Apr 2, 2019)

Ralif Redhammer said:


> Is Fistandantilus undead or just dead-dead? I know he was a spirit for a time, but then I thought Raistlin went back in time and killed him permanently. Or is my Dragonlance lore out-of-date (a likely possibility, that)?



Well, yes, but Raistlin was killing his undead granddaddy there. I mean, if Fistandantilus was killed in the past, he couldn't have been around to save Raistlin's life during the Test, so Raistlin would die in the present and never get a chance to go back and kill Fistandantilus.

In any case, the Sword Coast Adventurers' Guide lists "the deathless wizard Fistandantilus" as a possible Undying patron for warlocks, so he is canonically around in 5E.


----------



## Iry (Apr 2, 2019)

Ralif Redhammer said:


> As silly as they were, I always enjoyed those articles.



Undead Wizards Three would definitely be amazing.

I agree that Szass Tam would be invited ahead of Larloch for the realms. Szass Tam is much more popular. I would love to have Lord Soth show up, but he would be a miserable bump on the log and barely participate. At best he would show up and glower at people like The Simbul did. Vecna is way too popular to not have a spot at that table, so he would represent Oerth. You are right on the money with Strahd.

So Szass Tam, Vecna, and Strahd. With special guest appearances now and then by Soth, Fistandantilus, Acererak, Kaius, Malevanor, etc.

But they need someone to write everything down! I could be the same guy again, but if we need an undead you can dump Rhaugilath in the corner, just looking like a downcast puppy in chains while transcribing it.


----------



## Wrathamon (Apr 2, 2019)

since Larloch is pretty much unheard of Vecna vs Acererak ... one became a god and the other thinks gods are dumb


----------



## D1Tremere (Apr 2, 2019)

Maxperson said:


> At least Vecna did stuff.  Larloch has literally done nothing.  He's just a Mary Sue write-up.




Done nothing? Did you not see the list of his accomplishments I posted? I would argue that he has accomplished more (According to published books) than Vecna.


----------



## Maxperson (Apr 3, 2019)

D1Tremere said:


> Done nothing? Did you not see the list of his accomplishments I posted? I would argue that he has accomplished more (According to published books) than Vecna.




Those "accomplishments" were entirely written up in a very Mary Sue fashion.  Very little has ever been done with Larloch.  Vecna on the other hand has had his artifacts found, used, and/or destroyed for decades.  He has been the villain in multiple modules, a god to worship and grant spells, used by countless DMs in their games, and probably used by Gygax himself in some of his games.  Below is a link that provides some references for Vecna.  Larloch doesn't even come close to being used like Vecna.

Read the references and further reading.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vecna


----------



## D1Tremere (Apr 3, 2019)

Maxperson said:


> Those "accomplishments" were entirely written up in a very Mary Sue fashion.  Very little has ever been done with Larloch.  Vecna on the other hand has had his artifacts found, used, and/or destroyed for decades.  He has been the villain in multiple modules, a god to worship and grant spells, used by countless DMs in their games, and probably used by Gygax himself in some of his games.  Below is a link that provides some references for Vecna.  Larloch doesn't even come close to being used like Vecna.
> 
> Read the references and further reading.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vecna




It seems strange to me that anyone would differentiate the value of activities of a fictional character that appear in reference material such as Lords of Darkness and Volo's Guide to the Sword Cost from those of a fictional character that appear in different reference material such as Die Vecna Die!
Essentially your counter to the argument that Larloch is more powerful than Vecna is to agree that he is, but then refuse to accept it because you value some types of fictional sources differently than others.


----------



## Maxperson (Apr 3, 2019)

D1Tremere said:


> It seems strange to me that anyone would differentiate the value of activities of a fictional character that appear in reference material such as Lords of Darkness and Volo's Guide to the Sword Cost from those of a fictional character that appear in different reference material such as Die Vecna Die!




You don't see the difference between active use in all kinds of adventures and products, and being nothing but a story?



> Essentially your counter to the argument that Larloch is more powerful than Vecna is to agree that he is, but then refuse to accept it because you value some types of fictional sources differently than others.




Um, I've said multiple times that Vecna is more powerful, so I'm not sure where you get that from.  I also don't buy the whole, a lich is more powerful than a god schtick.  I think that's a silly idea.


----------



## Dausuul (Apr 3, 2019)

D1Tremere said:


> It seems strange to me that anyone would differentiate the value of activities of a fictional character that appear in reference material such as Lords of Darkness and Volo's Guide to the Sword Cost from those of a fictional character that appear in different reference material such as Die Vecna Die!
> Essentially your counter to the argument that Larloch is more powerful than Vecna is to agree that he is, but then refuse to accept it because you value some types of fictional sources differently than others.



Vecna and Larloch both had schemes to become gods. Vecna is now a god. Larloch... isn't.

Larloch's activities are pretty well confined to the Forgotten Realms. Vecna transcended his Greyhawk origins long ago and now schemes across the multiverse.

Vecna has had far more visible impact on the cosmos, including reshaping the planes themselves in "Die Vecna Die!" Ed Greenwood suggests that this is because Vecna is just flashier and noisier, but this is hard to reconcile with the fact that Vecna is literally the god of secrets. Both Larloch and Vecna keep their activities largely in the dark; if we have seen more results out of Vecna, the simplest explanation is that Vecna has in fact produced more results.

There is obviously never going to be any definitive answer to who is more powerful, but the available evidence suggests that Vecna is the strongest of the three. (Acererak is far behind the other two in power--no question there--but he makes up for it in style. Any two-bit lich can come up with a nefarious scheme to obtain phenomenal cosmic power by some weird ritual. But creating a device to trap the souls of resurrectees, in order to empower an undead god, apparently for the lulz... now _that_ is a nefarious scheme to be proud of.)


----------



## Khisanth the Ancient (Apr 3, 2019)

And what about Dregoth [from Dark Sun*]? Not actually a god, but that's only because godhood isn't actually possible to attain on Athas. 

His 2E stats are absolutely crazy. Unfortunately, 2E didn't stat gods, so he might or might not be stronger than Vecna... but still: AC -8, 173 hit points, 20d12 breath weapon, 29th level Athasian dragon (20th-level wizard/20th-level psionicist/9th-level dragon, with "psionic enchantments" - early 2E version of epic spells).

His entry is rather confusingly written, so it's not easy to figure out how much melee damage he's actually supposed to do- probably 2d10+10/2d10+10/4d12/5d10, with the lich's 1d10 cold + paralysis touch added to at least some of them?

*Dregoth is a "kaisharga" - Dark Sun equivalent of a lich, but they can be any class. He's also undergoing the dragon transformation that Dark Sun sorcerer-kings do, which is where he gets the ridiculous melee damage and breath weapon.


----------



## Azzy (Apr 3, 2019)

Dausuul said:


> (Acererak is far behind the other two in power--no question there--but he makes up for it in style. Any two-bit lich can come up with a nefarious scheme to obtain phenomenal cosmic power by some weird ritual. But creating a device to trap the souls of resurrectees, in order to empower an undead god, apparently for the lulz... now _that_ is a nefarious scheme to be proud of.)



Acererak's schemes have successfully spanned multiple planes (including multiple material planes). So, I think it's not a safe bet putting him in third place.


----------



## Zardnaar (Apr 3, 2019)

Khisanth the Ancient said:


> And what about Dregoth [from Dark Sun*]? Not actually a god, but that's only because godhood isn't actually possible to attain on Athas.
> 
> His 2E stats are absolutely crazy. Unfortunately, 2E didn't stat gods, so he might or might not be stronger than Vecna... but still: AC -8, 173 hit points, 20d12 breath weapon, 29th level Athasian dragon (20th-level wizard/20th-level psionicist/9th-level dragon, with "psionic enchantments" - early 2E version of epic spells).
> 
> ...




The Dragon was one level higher. Both were roughly on par with avatars of the FR God's. Mystra avatar in 2E was a level 40/40 wizard/cleric with unlimited.

spells. Mystra is one of the more powerful FR God's though.

 Dregoth would be weaker than Vecna more powerful than Acerak, and it's a toss up with him and Larloch. Larloch is 3 levels higher as a wizard and is probably smarter, Dregoth level 29 psion as well though.


----------



## D1Tremere (Apr 3, 2019)

Maxperson said:


> You don't see the difference between active use in all kinds of adventures and products, and being nothing but a story?




I do not, no. Not to the extent that you do.





Maxperson said:


> Um, I've said multiple times that Vecna is more powerful, so I'm not sure where you get that from.  I also don't buy the whole, a lich is more powerful than a god schtick.  I think that's a silly idea.




You stated that you think Larloch is a Mary Sue. "A Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly *perfect* fictional character. Often, this character is recognized as an author insert or wish fulfillment." If you believe him to be perfect and an object of wish fulfillment then you must think him more powerful than Vecna, who is not.

I believe the idea that a god is more powerful than anything else is flawed. Gods are actively opposed by other gods, bound by rules, traditions, and often powerful cosmological laws. Their power is often tied directly or indirectly to their believers, making them a bit like politicians in most regards. They cannot act without setting in motion a series of cosmic checks and balances that more often than not end in divine stalemate. I would also submit that even as a greater god, Vecna failed in his mission to remake reality as he would have liked at the city of Sigil due to non-divine intervention from ordinary adventurers. He even lost a large portion of his divine power in the process. How powerful can a god be in a system where they can be defeated, de-powered, or even killed by non-divine agents?


----------



## Azzy (Apr 3, 2019)

D1Tremere said:


> How powerful can a god be in a system where they can be defeated, de-powered, or even killed by non-divine agents?




Still more powerful than a mortal.


----------



## Elderbrain (Apr 3, 2019)

Khisanth the Ancient said:


> And what about Dregoth [from Dark Sun*]? Not actually a god, but that's only because godhood isn't actually possible to attain on Athas.
> 
> His 2E stats are absolutely crazy. Unfortunately, 2E didn't stat gods, so he might or might not be stronger than Vecna... but still: AC -8, 173 hit points, 20d12 breath weapon, 29th level Athasian dragon (20th-level wizard/20th-level psionicist/9th-level dragon, with "psionic enchantments" - early 2E version of epic spells).
> 
> ...




2e didn't stat gods, per se, but it sure as Hades statted up plenty of Avatars, and Vecna was among them. He received stats in the Ravenloft hardcover book "Domains of Dread" - he was not at his full normal strength due to being a prisoner in the plane.  He also got a write-up in "Die, Vecna, Die!" (since the PCs were supposed to fight him), and that was also a weakened version because he didn't have access to all of his powers while in Sigil. If I can dig up my copy of the books I'll post the pertinent info so you can judge how he compares with Dregoth (who was pretty darned powerful, as you state). He might have been statted at full strength elsewhere, but I don't know.

Gods vs. lichs is tricky, because depending upon edition a lich (or other non-divine being) can actually kill a god (or at least the god's Avatar). In 5e, Lesser gods apparently don't have Avatars, just one form (manifestation) which can be slain (but it is sometimes possible for a dead Lesser god to come back, or not be actually slain after all - Tiamat "dies" at the end of "Rise of Tiamat", but because she is not fully present on Toril she survives and is banished back to the Nine Hells.) A Greater god - again, by 5e rules - can't be killed in such a manner, at least not by mortals, and can form Avatar(s) that are the equivalent of Lesser gods (and which can be "killed" without destroying the actual god.) Artifacts can also change the rules - a lich with a powerful Artifact might even be able to harm/kill a Greater god (but no official ruling on this from WOTC for this edition.)


----------



## Elderbrain (Apr 3, 2019)

Azzy said:


> Still more powerful than a mortal.




Um, he DOES have a point - Vecna lost to mere mortals. Vecna was a god at the time. So you can't say definitively that it's impossible for Larloch to beat Vecna... and I say that as a Vecna partisan.


----------



## Azzy (Apr 3, 2019)

Elderbrain said:


> Um, he DOES have a point - Vecna lost to mere mortals. Vecna was a god at the time. So you can't say definitively that it's impossible for Larloch to beat Vecna... and I say that as a Vecna partisan.




Sure, he lost while in a weakened form to PCs in a module in which he was supposed to be defeated.


----------



## Seramus (Apr 4, 2019)

Azzy said:


> Acererak's schemes have successfully spanned multiple planes (including multiple material planes). So, I think it's not a safe bet putting him in third place.



It's pretty safe. I have no idea who would win between Vecna vs Larloch, but Acererak is not even in the same ballpark when it comes to power. Don't get me wrong, Acererak is a major threat to any adventuring party and even some gods. But the other two are at least an order of magnitude stronger in raw magical might and resources.


----------



## polyhedral man (Apr 4, 2019)

Henry said:


> Lich, please.




X-D 
what the man said.

View attachment 105696


----------



## Maxperson (Apr 4, 2019)

D1Tremere said:


> You stated that you think Larloch is a Mary Sue. "A Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly *perfect* fictional character. Often, this character is recognized as an author insert or wish fulfillment." If you believe him to be perfect and an object of wish fulfillment then you must think him more powerful than Vecna, who is not.




Um, again, no.  Being a Mary Sue does not make you all powerful.  It just makes you charmed, and Larloch's entire write up is charmed writing by a guy who likes to make Mary Sue NPCs.  Vecna is far more powerful than he is, despite Larloch's Mary Sue status.



> Gods are actively opposed by other gods, bound by rules, traditions, and often powerful cosmological laws. Their power is often tied directly or indirectly to their believers, making them a bit like politicians in most regards. They cannot act without setting in motion a series of cosmic checks and balances that more often than not end in divine stalemate.




None of this makes gods weaker than liches.  



> I would also submit that even as a greater god, Vecna failed in his mission to remake reality as he would have liked at the city of Sigil due to non-divine intervention from ordinary adventurers. He even lost a large portion of his divine power in the process. How powerful can a god be in a system where they can be defeated, de-powered, or even killed by non-divine agents?




This is bass ackwards.  The very fact that Vecna could make it into Sigil, a place where even greater gods cannot get into, made him more powerful than the vast majority of greater gods.  Further, Sigil rejects gods of even greater god status, so Vecna was contending with that at the same time as those heroes came upon him.  

In order to take out a god, mortals typically have to have some special means.  Whether it's an artifact, the Time of Troubles, a prophecy that gives them the ability, mistletoe in the case of Baldur, or what have you.  Otherwise, they get squashed.


----------



## D1Tremere (Apr 4, 2019)

Maxperson said:


> Um, again, no.  Being a Mary Sue does not make you all powerful.  It just makes you charmed, and Larloch's entire write up is charmed writing by a guy who likes to make Mary Sue NPCs.  Vecna is far more powerful than he is, despite Larloch's Mary Sue status.




I have not seen a definition of Mary Sue that uses the word charmed. Most say directly, perfect (as I quoted). The rest heavily imply perfection. Your definition may be the problem, as it is novel.





Maxperson said:


> None of this makes gods weaker than liches.




All of these are literally weaknesses or drawbacks that gods possess which mortals do not. So, by definition, these things make gods weaker than liches (in these specific ways at least). There may be other contexts in which gods are stronger than liches, but not the ones I listed.





Maxperson said:


> This is bass ackwards.  The very fact that Vecna could make it into Sigil, a place where even greater gods cannot get into, made him more powerful than the vast majority of greater gods.  Further, Sigil rejects gods of even greater god status, so Vecna was contending with that at the same time as those heroes came upon him.




Funny how mortal heroes do not seem to suffer the same difficulties here, another weakness of being a god that happened to work against Vecna is what I am seeing.  



Maxperson said:


> In order to take out a god, mortals typically have to have some special means.  Whether it's an artifact, the Time of Troubles, a prophecy that gives them the ability, mistletoe in the case of Baldur, or what have you.  Otherwise, they get squashed.




Do they though? Do they just get squished? For all the supposed power of the gods they sure do have a lot of enemies running around gathering up these god killing items and thwarting their plans. Why doesn't Vecna just instakill all of his enemies if gods are so powerful? How is he ever defeated at all? Why doesn't he just destroy any object that could harm him, forbid any situation that could de-power him, and slay his enemies before they even become a threat? I submit that it is because he can't. Larloch, on the other hand, seems to have a lot less problem with all of this despite not being a god.


----------



## Dausuul (Apr 4, 2019)

polyhedral man said:


> X-D
> what the man said.
> 
> View attachment 105696




You win this thread.


----------



## Iry (Apr 4, 2019)

Maxperson said:


> Um, again, no.  Being a Mary Sue does not make you all powerful.  It just makes you charmed, and Larloch's entire write up is charmed writing by a guy who likes to make Mary Sue NPCs.  Vecna is far more powerful than he is, despite Larloch's Mary Sue status.



Larloch can rightfully be called a Mary Sue because he has almost no flaws. At least, none that we really know of. That's one of the biggest hallmarks of being a Sue and applies to people of any power level, as you say. Of course, plenty of Mary Sues have captured the hearts of their readers - just look at Batman.

Acererak may not be able to compete with Vecna or Larloch in the power department, but I would say he has rightfully earned his achievements. He shows up places, sets up deathtrap tombs, and murders the jeebus out of curious adventurers. Then calmly sweeps up their loot and resets the mousetrap. It's a sadistic but otherwise effective business model as far as I am concerned.

If anyone deserves the title "Charmed" it would probably be Vecna. He essentially won the lottery when it comes to popularity because of his Hand and Eye, and all the shenanigans and stories that were born of that. He shows up with increasing amounts of power despite the fact that he keeps losing, and even manages to lose with the backing of The Serpent. And in spite of being the god of secrets (and gathering secrets with his Hand and Eye before that) he never does anything especially clever or brilliant. Yet he wins hearts and minds. Even mine. I love the guy.


----------



## Maxperson (Apr 4, 2019)

D1Tremere said:


> I have not seen a definition of Mary Sue that uses the word charmed. Most say directly, perfect (as I quoted). The rest heavily imply perfection. Your definition may be the problem, as it is novel.




You're seriously arguing that Mary Sue characters are God?  Because anything less than that is imperfect.  Me, I get that a Mary Sue character is not perfect and means something completely different than an all powerful, all knowing, perfect being.



> All of these are literally weaknesses or drawbacks that gods possess which mortals do not. So, by definition, these things make gods weaker than liches (in these specific ways at least). There may be other contexts in which gods are stronger than liches, but not the ones I listed.




You realize that you are literally arguing that if I tie one hand behind your back, a weakness that a 2 year old doesn't have, that you are weaker than a 2 year old.  

The context in which gods are stronger than liches is power.  They are more powerful than liches.



> I submit that it is because he can't. Larloch, on the other hand, seems to have a lot less problem with all of this despite not being a god.




Because he's a Mary Sue.


----------



## Hussar (Apr 4, 2019)

I'd point out that if Larlock is, in fact, a Mary Sue character, then that, by definition, makes him the most powerful.  That's what being a Mary Sue is - a character that is better than all other characters (and typically a stand in for the author).  So, by arguing that Larlock is a Mary Sue, all you are doing is proving that Larlock is the most powerful, by definition.


----------



## Zardnaar (Apr 4, 2019)

Hussar said:


> I'd point out that if Larlock is, in fact, a Mary Sue character, then that, by definition, makes him the most powerful.  That's what being a Mary Sue is - a character that is better than all other characters (and typically a stand in for the author).  So, by arguing that Larlock is a Mary Sue, all you are doing is proving that Larlock is the most powerful, by definition.




That's more Elminster maybe Drizzt. Both boring now IMHO.


----------



## Iry (Apr 4, 2019)

Maxperson said:


> You're seriously arguing that Mary Sue characters are God?  Because anything less than that is imperfect.  Me, I get that a Mary Sue character is not perfect and means something completely different than an all powerful, all knowing, perfect being.



Well... being all powerful, all knowing, and perfect technically makes you a Mary Sue.
Unless you use your omnipotence to be perfect AND have major flaws.
But shattering logic has always been a hallmark of true omnipotence.


----------



## Dausuul (Apr 4, 2019)

Sweet Demogorgon, save me from another argument over the precise definition of what constitutes a Mary Sue.

How about a citation from the 5E Dungeon Master's Guide, instead?



			
				Dungeon Master's Guide said:
			
		

> Orcus, the demon prince of undeath, taught Vecna a ritual that would allow him to live on as a lich. Beyond death, he became *the greatest of all liches.*



Thus, by RAW, Vecna is the most powerful lich. Anything else is your own personal house rule. Or Ed Greenwood's, as the case may be.


----------



## Mirtek (Apr 4, 2019)

Elderbrain said:


> Um, he DOES have a point - Vecna lost to mere mortals. Vecna was a god at the time. So you can't say definitively that it's impossible for Larloch to beat Vecna... and I say that as a Vecna partisan.



Actually only Vecnas' avatar lost which caused just enough distraction that he also lost the true divine battle he was fighting in parallel with the LoP


----------



## SkidAce (Apr 4, 2019)

Maxperson said:


> This is bass ackwards.  The very fact that Vecna could make it into Sigil, a place where even greater gods cannot get into, made him more powerful than the vast majority of greater gods.  Further, Sigil rejects gods of even greater god status, so Vecna was contending with that at the same time as those heroes came upon him.




I vote for Vecna, but the above does not necessarily mean he is/was more powerful.

Smarter, cleverer, or in possession of a cosmic secret (god of secrets right?) perhaps.


----------



## BBShockwave (Apr 5, 2019)

The answer to this should be simple. Last I checked, after the events of "Die Venca, Die!" Vecna became a lesser god of secrets. Acererak is either a lich or demilich (depends on edition) but that's nowhere near deity levels of powerful. I am gonna admit though, never heard of Larloch.


----------



## Zardnaar (Apr 5, 2019)

BBShockwave said:


> The answer to this should be simple. Last I checked, after the events of "Die Venca, Die!" Vecna became a lesser god of secrets. Acererak is either a lich or demilich (depends on edition) but that's nowhere near deity levels of powerful. I am gonna admit though, never heard of Larloch.




If Larloch can cast his Netherise spell in modern Faerun he could kill Vecna. Except Vecna isn't on Faerun and Karsus Avatar is a level 12 spell. In 2E the modern weave couldn't support magic of that level anymore, in 3E it could, 4E probably not, 5E who knows. Larloch might also not be powerful enough to cast it but if he can Vecna can be killed. Ioulaum might be the only being on Faerun who can cast it and he is theoretically still around unless someone or something killed him. Netherise had level 10 and 11 spells and one level 12.

 I would still put Vecna over Larloch but it's plausible Larloch could kill him, and vice versa.


----------



## Orius (Apr 5, 2019)

I'm definitely in the Vecna camp here.  Godhood.  What else needs to be said?  While his origins are Greyhawk, how many other worlds has he touched?  

Don't count out Acererak, his ritual from Return to the Tomb of Horrors involved merging his consciousness with the Negative Energy Plane itself so he could control any undead anywhere in the multiverse whenever he wanted.  Any undead here to me means just that -- even guys like Strahd von Zarovich, Lord Soth, Azalin, and yes, Larloch get to be Acererak's puppet if he succeeds.  When the PCs finally confront him, he just needs to absorb three more souls to achieve this, which he might very well get from the party. 

Larloch?  He might be powerful in the Realms but what does he really do on the rest of the multiverse as a whole?  Sorry, but he comes in third.


----------



## Maxperson (Apr 5, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> If Larloch can cast his Netherise spell in modern Faerun he could kill Vecna. Except Vecna isn't on Faerun and Karsus Avatar is a level 12 spell. In 2E the modern weave couldn't support magic of that level anymore, in 3E it could, 4E probably not, 5E who knows. Larloch might also not be powerful enough to cast it but if he can Vecna can be killed. Ioulaum might be the only being on Faerun who can cast it and he is theoretically still around unless someone or something killed him. Netherise had level 10 and 11 spells and one level 12.
> 
> I would still put Vecna over Larloch but it's plausible Larloch could kill him, and vice versa.




The spell of Karsus didn't kill Mystral.  We don't actually know if his spell would work.  What it did when he targeted Mystral was disrupt the weave and she sacrificed herself to save it.  Had he cast it on a different god, it might or might not have ultimately been successful.  In fact, given that Mystral would have immediately known what he was doing as it was in her province as the goddess of magic, she could have blocked his access to the weave to prevent him from succeeding.  His only chance of success was if he targeted a god other than Mystral, she allowed it to succeed, and the target failed the save if it even had to make one.

Even if Larloch knows the spell, and I don't see how as Karsus didn't likely teach it to him.(Oh, right.  Mary Sue.)  And even if he can somehow exceed the weaves power, which not even Mystra and the other gods can do(Doh!  Mary Sue again).  Casting the spell stands a very good chance of doing nothing(Unless Mary Sue).


----------



## Zardnaar (Apr 5, 2019)

Maxperson said:


> The spell of Karsus didn't kill Mystral.  We don't actually know if his spell would work.  What it did when he targeted Mystral was disrupt the weave and she sacrificed herself to save it.  Had he cast it on a different god, it might or might not have ultimately been successful.  In fact, given that Mystral would have immediately known what he was doing as it was in her province as the goddess of magic, she could have blocked his access to the weave to prevent him from succeeding.  His only chance of success was if he targeted a god other than Mystral, she allowed it to succeed, and the target failed the save if it even had to make one.
> 
> Even if Larloch knows the spell, and I don't see how as Karsus didn't likely teach it to him.(Oh, right.  Mary Sue.)  And even if he can somehow exceed the weaves power, which not even Mystra and the other gods can do(Doh!  Mary Sue again).  Casting the spell stands a very good chance of doing nothing(Unless Mary Sue).




The old Mystryl may not have had the powers of Mystara. Pantheon's merged after Netheril fell. 

 What Mystara could do also varied by editions. In 2E level 10+ magic would not work. Several of those spells we're redone in 3E via epic spellcasting rules which would technically allow them to work. 

 Not much is known about the spell, the write up of it is incomplete but I suspect it had no save and SR/MR would not apply. I also suspect it would have been undetectable by Mystryl.

 If the story called for it I bet the spell would work in modern Faerun. It's basically power word kill god plus loot them powers.

 Larloch might not be high enough level to cast it though and it was a previous poster that said Larloch knew all the Netherise spells.

 As I said Vecna over Larloch, and Larloch over Acererak.

 Was a big FR fan to the spellplague. Starting to prefer the more retrained Grewhawk.

Edit" moot point Larloch can't cast Karsuss Avatar he isn't powerful enough.


----------



## Mirtek (Apr 5, 2019)

Even so, the spell was never intended to permanently steal the power of a deity, only to temporarily "borrow" it. It would also likely kill the caster at the end,  while leaving the deity none the worse for wear.

This was mentioned in the flavor Text in NEoM multiple times. Only the incomplete rules write up after the fluff suddenly stated an unlimited duration.

However even that was corrected when this incomplete rules write up was reprinted in P&P.

Mystryl could have chosen to just sit out possession by Karsus   she only chose suicide to end the spell sooner. She figured dying and reincarnating through one of her safety meassures would be easier on the weave than waiting out the full spell duration


----------



## Mirtek (Apr 5, 2019)

Also the novel later portrayed Karsus as a power hungry mad man, who truly thought divine ascension. Which was the direct opposite of what the Netheril: Empire of Magic game supplement stated


----------



## Zardnaar (Apr 5, 2019)

Mirtek said:


> Also the novel later portrayed Karsus as a power hungry mad man, who truly thought divine ascension. Which was the direct opposite of what the Netheril: Empire of Magic game supplement stated




Late TSR didn't have much internal consistency. Darksun was full of stuff like this.


----------



## Iry (Apr 5, 2019)

Orius said:


> Don't count out Acererak, his ritual from Return to the Tomb of Horrors involved merging his consciousness with the Negative Energy Plane itself so he could control any undead anywhere in the multiverse whenever he wanted.  Any undead here to me means just that -- even guys like Strahd von Zarovich, Lord Soth, Azalin, and yes, Larloch get to be Acererak's puppet if he succeeds.  When the PCs finally confront him, he just needs to absorb three more souls to achieve this, which he might very well get from the party.



He never would have succeeded. There were way too many powerful beings who can and would stop him. The only way to reconcile it is to assume the adventurers that beat him were knowingly or unknowingly part of the plan to stop Acererak.


----------



## Dausuul (Apr 5, 2019)

Orius said:


> Don't count out Acererak, his ritual from Return to the Tomb of Horrors involved merging his consciousness with the Negative Energy Plane itself so he could control any undead anywhere in the multiverse whenever he wanted.  Any undead here to me means just that -- even guys like Strahd von Zarovich, Lord Soth, Azalin, and yes, Larloch get to be Acererak's puppet if he succeeds.  When the PCs finally confront him, he just needs to absorb three more souls to achieve this, which he might very well get from the party.



Every lich has an insane scheme to achieve ultimate power. And every lich that shows up in an adventure or novel comes within moments of completing its insane scheme, only to be foiled by adventurers at the last minute.

As I said before, Acererak gets style points for having more cool and interesting schemes than most; but, Colonel Xykon's Secret Recipe notwithstanding, style does not translate into actual power. Where power is concerned, you get zero credit for a failed scheme, no matter how close you came to pulling it off. The only scheme that counts is one that you have really, truly, 100% pulled off and reaped the rewards.

Vecna has a list of failed schemes as long as your arm. His diary is as thick as the dictionary and every page starts with "Almost achieved supreme cosmic power today, foiled by adventurers." But, for all of that, he _has_ succeeded in achieving godhood. That--not the plots that he almost pulled off but fell short--is what makes him the most powerful of the three.

It's tough to compare Acererak to Larloch on raw personal power, since we have no 5E stats for Larloch that I know of. But, setting that aside, Acererak tends to be a loner, while Larloch has an immense network of minions and allies. They may be confined to the Realms, but they are still power to be reckoned with. So I would rank Larloch ahead on that score (even though I agree that Larloch exudes "Ed Greenwood's personal power fantasy," has no significant accomplishments to his name, and really shouldn't be included in any list of Noteworthy Liches).


----------



## lowkey13 (Apr 5, 2019)

*Deleted by user*


----------



## Iry (Apr 6, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> is DIVINITY so completely devalued that we're all just skipping past it now?



Partially. FR divinity seems to be much stronger than Oerth or Krynn divinity. But the blame for that lies squarely upon FR power creep and is not what I would consider a good thing.


----------



## SDN (Apr 6, 2019)

*Define "messing".*



JeffB said:


> I suspect far more characters have died messing around w/Acererak and his abode than the other two.




When we played through the original Tomb of Horrors, we didn't go past the front doors. Since they were 10' by 10' by 1 foot thick solid mithril from the description, we took them both, loaded them onto our ship, and went back to buy Greyhawk.

The GM just sat there abusing his scotch for about 15 minutes......


----------



## Khisanth the Ancient (Apr 6, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> The Dragon was one level higher. Both were roughly on par with avatars of the FR God's. Mystra avatar in 2E was a level 40/40 wizard/cleric with unlimited.
> 
> spells. Mystra is one of the more powerful FR God's though.
> 
> Dregoth would be weaker than Vecna more powerful than Acerak,




Sounds right. Vecna's avatar form in "Die Vecna Die" would probably win against Dregoth due to its defenses (100% MR, psionics immunity, automatically makes saves against foes without a Vecna relic), though Dregoth _might_ be able to beat him down through pure physical damage. Vecna with access to full god powers would certainly defeat Dregoth easily.



> and it's a toss up with him and Larloch. Larloch is 3 levels higher as a wizard and is probably smarter, Dregoth level 29 psion as well though.




Athasian dragons get extra stuff well beyond their class levels, though.

Depends on the parameters of the conflict. In pure magic, Larloch would likely have the edge (depending on how Athasian psionic enchantments are considered to compare with FR Netheril magic) but Dregoth has incredible physical combat capability as well as his psionics.


----------



## Iry (Apr 7, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Larloch might not be high enough level to cast it though and it was a previous poster that said Larloch knew all the Netherise spells.



Larloch was one of the people who made a deal with Mystra to retain his ability to cast Netherise spells, in return for "accidentally" letting arcane lore slip out to persistent mages, and restocking ancient ruins for adventurers to discover. This is really a thing that several people in FR do, including Elminster (not sure if he still does it since he lost power).

As a point of pure speculation, I always assumed letting Rhaugilath write history books and send them to Candlekeep, and sometimes letting him send dreams and nightmares is part of that deal.


----------



## Zardnaar (Apr 7, 2019)

Iry said:


> Larloch was one of the people who made a deal with Mystra to retain his ability to cast Netherise spells, in return for "accidentally" letting arcane lore slip out to persistent mages, and restocking ancient ruins for adventurers to discover. This is really a thing that several people in FR do, including Elminster (not sure if he still does it since he lost power).
> 
> As a point of pure speculation, I always assumed letting Rhaugilath write history books and send them to Candlekeep, and sometimes letting him send dreams and nightmares is part of that deal.




He can cast level 10 Netherise spells, but his 2E stats and 3E stats have him come up short for level 11 and 12 spells. They all got folded up into epic spells in 3E as the weave could support such spells again.


----------



## Azzy (Apr 7, 2019)

Iry said:


> Larloch was one of the people who made a deal with Mystra to retain his ability to cast Netherise spells, in return for "accidentally" letting arcane lore slip out to persistent mages, and* restocking ancient ruins for adventurers to discover. This is really a thing that several people in FR do*, including Elminster (not sure if he still does it since he lost power).




That's incredibly silly (at best).


----------



## Iry (Apr 7, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> He can cast level 10 Netherise spells, but his 2E stats and 3E stats have him come up short for level 11 and 12 spells. They all got folded up into epic spells in 3E as the weave could support such spells again.



We know from Ed that Larloch can cast Proctiv's Breach Crystal Sphere. Since 10th level spells were not restricted in 2nd Edition (N:EoM 116), and Proctiv's Breach is an 11th level spell, it's reasonable to conclude that his deal with Mystra was for 11th level spells. As for 12th level spells, there are no canon or Ed-canon sources of him casting any so he probably cannot even if he has knowledge of them.



Azzy said:


> That's incredibly silly (at best).



Yes.


----------



## Maxperson (Apr 7, 2019)

Iry said:


> We know from Ed that Larloch can cast Proctiv's Breach Crystal Sphere. Since 10th level spells were not restricted in 2nd Edition (N:EoM 116), and Proctiv's Breach is an 11th level spell, it's reasonable to conclude that his deal with Mystra was for 11th level spells. As for 12th level spells, there are no canon or Ed-canon sources of him casting any so he probably cannot even if he has knowledge of them.




I disagree.  It's reasonable to conclude that it got morphed into an epic spell.  We know from the rule books that Mystra specifically altered the weave so that no spell higher than 9th level can be cast.  This holds true even for her, the goddess of magic.  If she can't do it, neither can he.  She wouldn't limit herself and let him exceed the limits.


----------



## Khisanth the Ancient (Apr 7, 2019)

Azzy said:


> That's incredibly silly (at best).




That does seem odd, unless they have a specific reason. I mean, there are several other established situations like that in D&D, but they have purposes.

Acererak builds death-trap tombs as a way to accumulate souls from foolhardy adventurers, for example. 

IIRC it's at least strongly implied that Mystaran Immortals set up situations for adventurers - at least very-high-level ones questing for Immortality - but they need to do that, since the only way they can get new Immortals is by promoting great mortal heroes to Immortality.


----------



## Iry (Apr 7, 2019)

Maxperson said:


> I disagree.  It's reasonable to conclude that it got morphed into an epic spell.  We know from the rule books that Mystra specifically altered the weave so that no spell higher than 9th level can be cast.  This holds true even for her, the goddess of magic.  If she can't do it, neither can he.  She wouldn't limit herself and let him exceed the limits.



All three liches are active in 5th Edition, so it's genuinely hard to say what they can do when it comes to spell levels above 9th. All three predate 3rd Edition, so we can reasonably determine what spells they know based on that - but actually casting things above 9th becomes a big confused shrug. Even for Vecna.


----------



## Maxperson (Apr 7, 2019)

Iry said:


> All three liches are active in 5th Edition, so it's genuinely hard to say what they can do when it comes to spell levels above 9th. All three predate 3rd Edition, so we can reasonably determine what spells they know based on that - but actually casting things above 9th becomes a big confused shrug. Even for Vecna.




Well, it's confused for Vecna and Acererak.  Both of them are Greyhawk liches and there's no weave there, so we don't know what limits spells to 9th level and if it's possible to exceed that limitation or not.  All we have to go by are the rule sets, all of which limit spells to 9th level.  No rule set or supplement other than Forgotten Realms that I've ever heard of showed any wizard being able cast spells above 9th level, so I'd rule that it's a big no.

Larloch is different, though.  We KNOW that that the Forgotten Realms setting allowed spells above 9th level up until Karsus cast his spell and Mystral sacrificed her self.  Her reincarnation Mystra altered the weave to allow a maximum of 9th levels spells to be cast, so Larloch is limited to that level of spell, regardless of what spells he knows.  The epic rules for 3e(which don't exist in 5e) get around that limitation by having no level, so either the old spells of above 9th level are converted to being epic spells, or he cannot cast them.  If he could cast them in 3e, they were epic.  

Now, suppose they did not get converted to being epic spells.  What happens if Larloch goes to another plane where there is no weave.  Wizards can still cast spells, so we are now confused again as to whether or not he can cast spells above 9th level.  Since no high level/epic planar wizards could cast spells above 9th level spells in any rule set or supplement that I've ever seen or heard of, I'd rule that he could not cast them and that spells above 9th level were a Forgotten Realms specific feature.


----------



## gyor (Apr 7, 2019)

Maxperson said:


> Well, it's confused for Vecna and Acererak.  Both of them are Greyhawk liches and there's no weave there, so we don't know what limits spells to 9th level and if it's possible to exceed that limitation or not.  All we have to go by are the rule sets, all of which limit spells to 9th level.  No rule set or supplement other than Forgotten Realms that I've ever heard of showed any wizard being able cast spells above 9th level, so I'd rule that it's a big no.
> 
> Larloch is different, though.  We KNOW that that the Forgotten Realms setting allowed spells above 9th level up until Karsus cast his spell and Mystral sacrificed her self.  Her reincarnation Mystra altered the weave to allow a maximum of 9th levels spells to be cast, so Larloch is limited to that level of spell, regardless of what spells he knows.  The epic rules for 3e(which don't exist in 5e) get around that limitation by having no level, so either the old spells of above 9th level are converted to being epic spells, or he cannot cast them.  If he could cast them in 3e, they were epic.
> 
> Now, suppose they did not get converted to being epic spells.  What happens if Larloch goes to another plane where there is no weave.  Wizards can still cast spells, so we are now confused again as to whether or not he can cast spells above 9th level.  Since no high level/epic planar wizards could cast spells above 9th level spells in any rule set or supplement that I've ever seen or heard of, I'd rule that he could not cast them and that spells above 9th level were a Forgotten Realms specific feature.




 I'll point out in 4e there were spells far above merely 9Th level.


----------



## Maxperson (Apr 7, 2019)

gyor said:


> I'll point out in 4e there were spells far above merely 9Th level.




4e didn't have spells in the same structure. If you look closely, you'll see that there were no spells over "9th" level in the power structure.  They just got stretched over 30 levels and called 15th or 20th or whatever level.  For instance, you didn't find Prismatic Spray at 7th level, you found it at 25th.  Forcecage wasn't 7th level, it was 27th.  If 4e spell levels were really above "9th," you'd have gotten Meteor Swarm at 9th level, which is when 9th level spells happened, or MAYBE at 18th level, which is when you'd have gotten it in other editions.

So no, 4e did not have spells over 9th(as the other editions had them) level in power.


----------



## Zardnaar (Apr 7, 2019)

Maxperson said:


> Well, it's confused for Vecna and Acererak.  Both of them are Greyhawk liches and there's no weave there, so we don't know what limits spells to 9th level and if it's possible to exceed that limitation or not.  All we have to go by are the rule sets, all of which limit spells to 9th level.  No rule set or supplement other than Forgotten Realms that I've ever heard of showed any wizard being able cast spells above 9th level, so I'd rule that it's a big no.
> 
> Larloch is different, though.  We KNOW that that the Forgotten Realms setting allowed spells above 9th level up until Karsus cast his spell and Mystral sacrificed her self.  Her reincarnation Mystra altered the weave to allow a maximum of 9th levels spells to be cast, so Larloch is limited to that level of spell, regardless of what spells he knows.  The epic rules for 3e(which don't exist in 5e) get around that limitation by having no level, so either the old spells of above 9th level are converted to being epic spells, or he cannot cast them.  If he could cast them in 3e, they were epic.
> 
> Now, suppose they did not get converted to being epic spells.  What happens if Larloch goes to another plane where there is no weave.  Wizards can still cast spells, so we are now confused again as to whether or not he can cast spells above 9th level.  Since no high level/epic planar wizards could cast spells above 9th level spells in any rule set or supplement that I've ever seen or heard of, I'd rule that he could not cast them and that spells above 9th level were a Forgotten Realms specific feature.




2E High Level Campaign book had level 10 magic that was kind of redone in the Epic Level Handbook.

 The Netherise spells were kind of similar they were not mega powerful in terms of combat but more worldshaping.

 Quest spells were kind of similar concept.


----------



## Maxperson (Apr 8, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> 2E High Level Campaign book had level 10 magic that was kind of redone in the Epic Level Handbook.
> 
> The Netherise spells were kind of similar they were not mega powerful in terms of combat but more worldshaping.
> 
> Quest spells were kind of similar concept.




Interesting.  I'm going to have to try and find that 2e book.  I've never seen it before.


----------



## Zardnaar (Apr 8, 2019)

Maxperson said:


> Interesting.  I'm going to have to try and find that 2e book.  I've never seen it before.




PDF was on drive through/rpg now.


----------



## Iry (Apr 8, 2019)

Maxperson said:


> Both of them are Greyhawk liches and there's no weave there, so we don't know what limits spells to 9th level and if it's possible to exceed that limitation or not.  All we have to go by are the rule sets, all of which limit spells to 9th level.  No rule set or supplement other than Forgotten Realms that I've ever heard of showed any wizard being able cast spells above 9th level, so I'd rule that it's a big no.



Forgotten Realms had 12th level spells, that got limited down to 10th in 2nd Edition. Dark Sun went up to 10th level spells and psionics. Tome of Magic had quest spells of unknown-but-higher-than-anything-else level. Birthright had the whole Realm Spells section. And even before 2nd Edition there were the old Immortals Rules. Basically they have been around for a while in almost every setting, just not very codified.

Someone might correct me here, but I believe everyone uses the Weave in 5th Edition (without Mystra of course). 



Maxperson said:


> Larloch is different, though.  We KNOW that that the Forgotten Realms setting allowed spells above 9th level up until Karsus cast his spell and Mystral sacrificed her self.  Her reincarnation Mystra altered the weave to allow a maximum of 9th levels spells to be cast, so Larloch is limited to that level of spell, regardless of what spells he knows.  The epic rules for 3e(which don't exist in 5e) get around that limitation by having no level, so either the old spells of above 9th level are converted to being epic spells, or he cannot cast them.  If he could cast them in 3e, they were epic.



She banned 11th and 12th level spells. 10th level was still allowed. It wasn't until 3rd Edition that 9th level became the maximum in the Realms.


----------



## Zardnaar (Apr 8, 2019)

2E added 11th and 12th level spells.


----------



## Maxperson (Apr 8, 2019)

Iry said:


> Forgotten Realms had 12th level spells, that got limited down to 10th in 2nd Edition. Dark Sun went up to 10th level spells and psionics. Tome of Magic had quest spells of unknown-but-higher-than-anything-else level. Birthright had the whole Realm Spells section. And even before 2nd Edition there were the old Immortals Rules. Basically they have been around for a while in almost every setting, just not very codified.
> 
> Someone might correct me here, but I believe everyone uses the Weave in 5th Edition (without Mystra of course).
> 
> She banned 11th and 12th level spells. 10th level was still allowed. It wasn't until 3rd Edition that 9th level became the maximum in the Realms.




A few things.  

First, the 5e PHB lists Mystra as a 5e Forgotten Realms deity, so she's back and in charge of the weave.  

Second, I pulled out my 2e Netheril setting and looked at it.  It had this to say about Karsus's Avatar. "The notes regarding the spells essence were nowhere to be found.  It's believed that Mystra, the reincarnated form of Mystral, snatched the spell information from the ruins of Karsus's enclave and sent it on an eternal journey to the ends of the universe."  It's not likely that despite Larloch knowing Netherese magic, he was ever able to learn Karsus's Avatar.  

Third, there was only one 12th level spell ever made, at least that made it into the setting books, so Larloch may not know any of those at all.  

Fourth, according to my Lords of Darkness book, Larloch is only 32nd level, and that's in 3e Forgotten Realms era where he's gained some more power since Netheril fell.  He was never strong enough to cast 12th level spells, so he couldn't have learned Karsus's Avatar, let alone cast it.

Fifth, those 10th level spells in Darksun were psionically amplified and you had to be a Dragon or Evangion to even be able to cast them.  Single class wizards couldn't do it.   You had to be 20th level wizard/20th level psionicist to even become one of those.

Sixth, the Immortal level spells were specifically spells no mortal could learn, not spells that were higher than 9th level.  When Immortals actually used magic, they used mortal magic from 1st-9th level.

I don't know about Birthright or quest spells, but the names suggest epic spellcasting, not necessarily spell levels higher than 9th.


----------



## SkidAce (Apr 8, 2019)

Iry said:


> Someone might correct me here, but I believe everyone uses the Weave in 5th Edition (without Mystra of course).




We do not use the Weave.  

Having said that, the "sidebar" in the PH does say that without the "Weave" magic is locked away, and "even the mightiest of mages can't even light a candle."

But that is in a sidebar, where they put flavor, IMHO.


----------



## Zardnaar (Apr 8, 2019)

Maxperson said:


> A few things.
> 
> First, the 5e PHB lists Mystra as a 5e Forgotten Realms deity, so she's back and in charge of the weave.
> 
> ...




Karsus Avatar was in Faith's and Avatars or Powers and Pantheon's. It's incomplete but it's a write up of sorts. 

 Guess who likes their 2E stuff. The spell worked as designed but Karsus chose the wrong good to target IMHO.


----------



## Maxperson (Apr 8, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Karsus Avatar was in Faith's and Avatars or Powers and Pantheon's. It's incomplete but it's a write up of sorts.




Is it more complete than the one in the 2e Netheril campaign setting? 



> Guess who likes their 2E stuff. The spell worked as designed but Karsus chose the wrong good to target IMHO.




I like my 2e stuff as well, but during a move a box of it vanished.  I suspect it got tossed with some garbage boxes   I don't have much left.


----------



## Zardnaar (Apr 8, 2019)

Maxperson said:


> Is it more complete than the one in the 2e Netheril campaign setting?
> Thanks
> 
> 
> I like my 2e stuff as well, but during a move a box of it vanished.  I suspect it got tossed with some garbage boxes   I don't have much left.




Yes I believe so. I had a quick look at my boxed set/PDF the other day.

 The Netherise arcanist is basically a prototype 3E sorcerer or spell point 5E dmg wizard although Spells and Magic had spell point option. 

 Found all sorts if things rereading my 2E stuff a few years ago including the advantage mechanic.


----------



## Voadam (Apr 8, 2019)

Maxperson said:


> Interesting.  I'm going to have to try and find that 2e book.  I've never seen it before.




For 10th level spells in official D&D see Dungeon Master's Options: High-Level Campaigns

Netherese spells from the prior FR age where magic worked differently are from Netheril: Empire of Magic

Quest spells are from Tome of Magic.

Realm spells were from having divine blood in the Birthright Campaign Setting

And 10th level Dark Sun magic was from Dragon Kings.


----------



## Iry (Apr 8, 2019)

Maxperson said:


> First, the 5e PHB lists Mystra as a 5e Forgotten Realms deity, so she's back and in charge of the weave.



I was talking about the Weave outside of FR.


Maxperson said:


> Second, I pulled out my 2e Netheril setting and looked at it.  It had this to say about Karsus's Avatar. "The notes regarding the spells essence were nowhere to be found.  It's believed that Mystra, the reincarnated form of Mystral, snatched the spell information from the ruins of Karsus's enclave and sent it on an eternal journey to the ends of the universe."  It's not likely that despite Larloch knowing Netherese magic, he was ever able to learn Karsus's Avatar.



Larloch does not know Karsus's Avatar (not that he would cast it even if he could).


Maxperson said:


> Fifth, those 10th level spells in Darksun were psionically amplified and you had to be a Dragon or Evangion to even be able to cast them.  Single class wizards couldn't do it.   You had to be 20th level wizard/20th level psionicist to even become one of those.
> 
> Sixth, the Immortal level spells were specifically spells no mortal could learn, not spells that were higher than 9th level.  When Immortals actually used magic, they used mortal magic from 1st-9th level.
> 
> I don't know about Birthright or quest spells, but the names suggest epic spellcasting, not necessarily spell levels higher than 9th.



We are offering you examples of 10th+ casting from sources outside of FR, since you were unfamiliar with them. We're not suggesting Larloch can cast them.


----------



## Zardnaar (Apr 8, 2019)

What if Dregoth was on the list lol. Vecna, Dregoth, Larloch, Acererak in that order (based on 2E stats)


----------



## Maxperson (Apr 8, 2019)

Iry said:


> I was talking about the Weave outside of FR.




Forgotten Realms is the only place I've ever heard of the Weave.  I don't think it exists in other settings.


----------



## Zardnaar (Apr 8, 2019)

Maxperson said:


> Forgotten Realms is the only place I've ever heard of the Weave.  I don't think it exists in other settings.




For the most part magic is magic. Netherise spells might not work on other world's and Dregoth on Faerun might be unable to cast spells as magical energy can't be drawn from plants.
 Mystara can't do that much on other world's. She can cut off visiting spellcasters from the weave on Faerun though.


----------



## Iry (Apr 8, 2019)

Maxperson said:


> Forgotten Realms is the only place I've ever heard of the Weave.  I don't think it exists in other settings.



Apparently it does, and is the new multiversal standard for 5E. Mystra is specific to FR, though.

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/10/11/does-all-arcane-divine-natural-etc-magic-rely-on-the-weave/


----------



## Maxperson (Apr 8, 2019)

Iry said:


> Apparently it does, and is the new multiversal standard for 5E. Mystra is specific to FR, though.
> 
> https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/10/11/does-all-arcane-divine-natural-etc-magic-rely-on-the-weave/




I was rather fond of the Weave being local to the Forgotten Realms setting, so I won't be incorporating this change, but thanks for finding it.


----------



## cbwjm (Apr 8, 2019)

Maxperson said:


> I was rather fond of the Weave being local to the Forgotten Realms setting, so I won't be incorporating this change, but thanks for finding it.



It's a change in the lore I ignore in much the same way that I ignore the elf lore which has them all coming from corellon.


----------



## Azzy (Apr 8, 2019)

Iry said:


> Forgotten Realms had 12th level spells, that got limited down to 10th in 2nd Edition. Dark Sun went up to 10th level spells and psionics. Tome of Magic had quest spells of unknown-but-higher-than-anything-else level. Birthright had the whole Realm Spells section. And even before 2nd Edition there were the old Immortals Rules. Basically they have been around for a while in almost every setting, just not very codified.




You'd think that they would have tried to achieve some sort of consistency and coherence in the execution of "higher than 9th-level spells" department within 1e & 2e at least. But it sounds like they didn't even try.


----------



## lowkey13 (Apr 8, 2019)

*Deleted by user*


----------



## Iry (Apr 9, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> Making all magic part of the weave is like making all races gnomes.
> I mean, sure, you can, but why?



As my own rationalization, I always imagined magic like electricity. People got a lot of use out of it and everyone had their own magnet and wire rigs. Archmages and Druids started building turbines that work on river magic, sun magic, shadow magic, etc. Then some FR gods got together and built a nuclear power plant (The Weave) that provided enough power for entire cities and magic for everyday people. Since the drama must flow, it’s melted down a few times, but the general idea is secure.

Now everyone in the multiverse is building their own nuclear power plant.
But not every nuclear power plant is built to the same safety standards.


----------



## Maxperson (Apr 9, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> Making all magic part of the weave is like making all races gnomes.
> 
> I mean, sure, you can, but why?




Aww, man!   You edited out that thing that I'm pretty sure was supposed to be a gnome, but looked kinda X-Rated.


----------



## Maxperson (Apr 9, 2019)

Iry said:


> As my own rationalization, I always imagined magic like electricity. People got a lot of use out of it and everyone had their own magnet and wire rigs. Archmages and Druids started building turbines that work on river magic, sun magic, shadow magic, etc. Then some FR gods got together and built a nuclear power plant (The Weave) that provided enough power for entire cities and magic for everyday people. Since the drama must flow, it’s melted down a few times, but the general idea is secure.
> 
> Now everyone in the multiverse is building their own nuclear power plant.
> But not every nuclear power plant is built to the same safety standards.




For my part, I like that the Forgotten Realms has the Weave, Dragonlance has the three moons, Darksun has living energy, and so on, to provide the source of magic for the various settings.


----------



## Iry (Apr 9, 2019)

Maxperson said:


> For my part, I like that the Forgotten Realms has the Weave, Dragonlance has the three moons, Darksun has living energy, and so on, to provide the source of magic for the various settings.



Humorously, Dragonlance and Darksun would probably love to learn how to channel magic like wizards from other settings. Darksun especially would benefit from outsourcing, and I always imagined Dragons in Athas trying to entice wizards from other realms into working for them.


----------



## Zardnaar (Apr 9, 2019)

Dragonlance might not. Moon magic was useful.

 I would assume Darjsun would be an exception if they ever make it. If they add weave and get away from the defiler/ preserver duality by adding a heap of arcane classes you're not really playing Darksun at that point


----------



## Iry (Apr 9, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Dragonlance might not. Moon magic was useful.



The moon gods are pretty permissive about how their arcane magic is used, so there won't be a huge demand. But there are always people who will want magic without strings or oversight.


----------



## Voadam (May 8, 2019)

I've used Vecna as a God as a DM, had a player get possessed by the Sword of Kas and quest against Vecna, and interacted with him in his god god role a couple of times as a player.

I've never run or played any of the Tombs of Horror.

I own a ton of FR but had not known about Larloch and just looked up his stats in 3.0's Lords of Darkness. He's got the 1e Lolth problem. A narratively super powerful character but stat wise a huge glass cannon. He's a CR 34 bad guy with 134 hp. Also his description says 



> "His mind has been affected by his extreme age as well, for at times he is crazed, hurling spells at random, and others he is completely calm. Most times he slays intruders outright."




Which is consistent with other Greenwood stuff I've read on the effects of FR wizardly magics on people's minds over time, wizards usually go crazy over long periods of time.

Vecna fails but his failures get him super results and reach and power. His original failures created artifacts. His 2e failures launched his demigodhood, then 3e itself and then his being a core deity from 3e on.


----------



## Infinite Chaos (Sep 18, 2021)

Morrus said:


> _Forgotten Realms_ creator* Ed Greenwood* was recently asked who was the most powerful lich: Vecna, Acererak, or Larloch. Here was his reply!
> 
> View attachment 112441
> ​
> ...



El himself has even admitted to be scared of Larloch.


----------



## Iry (Sep 19, 2021)

Does this thread count as a phylactery?


----------



## Weiley31 (Sep 19, 2021)

Joseph Nardo said:


> Considering that in tomb of annihilation, acerack killed several gods.....



Then gets his butt handed to him by a bunch of strange weirdo wackjobs who make a living kicking down the door to random monster houses to steal all of their crap while adhering to some strange will of a being that keeps on tossing them into highly unlikely scenarios as a bizarre form of entertainment.

But hey, at least it makes for good reality tv show watching when a number of said schmucks fall for the Green Face gimmick.


----------

