# Countdown to the Realms:  Magic in the Forgotten Realms



## Shroomy (Jan 30, 2008)

Read the newest article here:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20080130a.

Maztica is gone.


----------



## Mirtek (Jan 30, 2008)

Personally I a little bit bothered by the _so potent that gods and primordials alike fear to face the most ancient of these mighty beings._ sentence about dragons. I really hope that this is just meaningless fluff. 

30 levels is of course a short range and if a mere pitfiend is already lvl 26 and we know that Orcus is also in the MM1 (and is a primordial which means on the level of the gods) the difference between them can't be that big.

I would prefer anything but the weakest demigods grossly outclassing anything lvl 30 and theses weakest of demigods the stepping stone for an immortals supplement taking the PCs from level 31-xx.


----------



## Nymrohd (Jan 30, 2008)

Well I have been getting the feeling that many gods in FR and beyond will be demoted to exarchs as servants to greater gods (and FR had several such hierarchies in it anyway). So maybe those creatures are actually on par with demon princes.


----------



## kennew142 (Jan 30, 2008)

We are slowly getting a little more information about the spellplague. IMO, it makes more sense, the more information we're given. A lot of folks still won't like it, but seeing it in context is a good thing.

I'm more upset over the loss of Maztica than I was over the loss of Unther, but I'm curious to see what the new lands look like. I'm glad that I decided not to hold off on that high level Maztica adventure until the next edition.


----------



## Thaumaturge (Jan 30, 2008)

Halruaa... every inscribed and prepared spell in the nation went off... simultaneously.  Ouch.

Thaumaturge.


----------



## Sir Brennen (Jan 30, 2008)

FR Article said:
			
		

> That said, some items that temporarily stored “charges” of magic, such as wands and staffs created prior to the Spellplague, no longer work. If such items do work, they no longer work in the same way.



Interesting... no more wands of cure light wounds? Is "no longer work the same way" in reference to wands becoming implements, basically the wizard's "sword"?


----------



## Nymrohd (Jan 30, 2008)

Most likely yes. After all adding wands in a game that features at-will abilities sounds unbalancing.
I am fully expecting this article to escalate the 4E FR hate among certain canon fans.


----------



## Irda Ranger (Jan 30, 2008)

"Primal" is a power source? Is that a new word for "Elemental" (because Primal is like Primordial), or is that what Druids use?

As for Halrua ... whoa.  I didn't see that coming.  And the Old Empires now sounds like Robert Jordan's Aiel Waste.

They really did a number on Faerun, didn't they?  This is the most drastic setting reboot I've even seen.  

And I have very mixed feelings about forcing the new cosmology (which I like) onto a setting that isn't "the implied setting."  How is FR not the Implied Setting now, other than a slightly different list of Gods?

The concept of "Plaguechanged" though really opens the door to totally unique and weird monsters, which is only a Good Thing to a DM like me. 



> I would prefer anything but the weakest demigods grossly outclassing anything lvl 30 and theses weakest of demigods the stepping stone for an immortals supplement taking the PCs from level 31-xx.



And I agree with this. It would be cool if a 30th level PC could take on an Exarch (like the Red Knight, I imagine), but not the "true" Gods.  That's too much.


----------



## Nahat Anoj (Jan 30, 2008)

> Today, spellcasters access magic through a dizzying array of methods. Some murmur spells and incant rituals, some forge arcane bargains, and others pray for intervention. In truth, it seems that magic can be accessed in more ways than ever before, fueled by newfound knowledge of arcane, shadow, *primal*, and other sources of power.



Bolding mine.  This is the first time I've heard of the "primal" power source by name from WotC.

All in all it looks like a cool article.  I may actually want to play in the Realms again.


----------



## ZombieRoboNinja (Jan 30, 2008)

Can I be the first to dub this "Crisis on Infinite Torils"?


----------



## WhatGravitas (Jan 30, 2008)

Liked the bit that most magic items used the weave to "connect" items to magic, meaning they're not going to undo hoards of artefacts.

But what the frell is Abeir, besides being in "Abeir-Toril", IIRC, we never heard anything about it before the last Dragon magazine, right?

Cheers, LT.


----------



## Nymrohd (Jan 30, 2008)

Stardeep novel. Abeir and Toril were different worlds and one assaulted the other. Don't know more details, will now have to buy the novel


----------



## ZombieRoboNinja (Jan 30, 2008)

Mirtek said:
			
		

> 30 levels is of course a short range and if a mere pitfiend is already lvl 26 and we know that Orcus is also in the MM1 (and is a primordial which means on the level of the gods) the difference between them can't be that big.
> 
> I would prefer anything but the weakest demigods grossly outclassing anything lvl 30 and theses weakest of demigods the stepping stone for an immortals supplement taking the PCs from level 31-xx.




First off, 30 is super-high epic. There's a reason "epic destinies" shuffle you out of the game at level 30: the game just can't scale up any higher. (A level 30 party can kill a god with enough preparation and help; by level 40, it would probably be a normal encounter, meaning the PCs ARE at least demigods.)

But anyway, go take a gander at the 3e PHB and see how many monsters you can spot with a CR above the "level cap." IIRC the most powerful dragons were about CR 28. So it wouldn't surprise me if Orcus is level 35-40 (and thus only beatable by a full level 30 party with tons of help and preparation).


----------



## grimslade (Jan 30, 2008)

Wow. I did not expect another world to be tacked on to Toril. Lots of change. 

I don't mind losing Maztica. I mind losing half of the Sea of Fallen Stars. The whole Returned Abeir will be interesting. 

I scoffed when the FR grognards were talking about the Eberronification of the Realms but Spellscarred sounds an awful lot like aberrant dragonmarks and the Plague Lands sound a lot like Cyre/Mournlands. Nothing new under the sun and all, but cross pollination is happening.

It sounds like New Realms will be a fun place to adventure but a totally different Realms, except for Cormyr and the Sword Coast.


----------



## SCMrks (Jan 30, 2008)

Somethings that stand out to me are:
-"Wizards, warlocks, clerics, sorcerers, bards, paladins, and even rogues, fighters, rangers, and other adventurers" call upon magic - so as far as using spells rangers are after "and even" with rogues and fighters.

- Abeir replaces Maztica as a continent

- the dragonborn kingdom of Tymanther is from Abeir and another kingdom called Akanul. Could that be the Tiefling kingdom?

- the Sea of Fallen Stars has been drained

- are Spellscars the FR version of Dragonmarks?


----------



## Nymrohd (Jan 30, 2008)

My long running FR campaign is underwater (inside the Sea of Fallen Stars, though now near the end the players are in the open shores of Maztica in Corynactis.) I wonder if the changes made to the underwater realms will ever be covered.


----------



## Plane Sailing (Jan 30, 2008)

SCMrks said:
			
		

> - are Spellscars the FR version of Dragonmarks?




On reading I wondered whether it was going to be a re-concepted spellfire rather than dragonmarks.


----------



## PeterWeller (Jan 30, 2008)

It sounds really ripe for adventure, but now I really want to know more about the "disastrous joining of two worlds."


----------



## Voss (Jan 30, 2008)

Ugh.  This is one of the worst fluff justifications for rule changes I've seen in a long time.

hopefully the rogue, fighter and ranger using magic comment refers to using the class training feat and taking magical abilities, and not the nature of their own class abilities.

And spellscars.  Yay.  BlueRuneFireMarks for the lose.  

Glad to see they ramped up  the inconsistencies.  The spellplague affected magical things, mostly disintegrating them.  Fine.  But some things 'changed'.  And some things, like Halruaa, blew the heck up.  And other things, like mythals and the like, were so magical they were entirely fine.  You know, because.   No, no reason.  _Just because._

So I forget.  Why was rewriting the setting with all the depth of a twelve year old's first fanfic better than just saying, 'here's how the rules work now'?


@ZombieRobotNinja- sadly, you can't.  It had been mentioned on the wizard's boards during one of the earlier cycles of information


----------



## Cmarco (Jan 30, 2008)

Oh, this is gonna be fun...


----------



## Nymrohd (Jan 30, 2008)

I posted this on the Wizard forums about the Weave and the Spellplague:

The Weave touches all living beings giving them access to magic if they learn how to access it. (In fact it was retconned from actually being tied to the lifeforce of everything in Toril). Without Mystra's constant attention, the Weave frayed and collapsed.
Imagine a net under constant tension. Parts of the net are tangled and parts of it are missing, though they are a small part of the total construct. Without the constant application of counterforces in certain parts of the net, it starts to unravel. 
Near the dead spots the starting wave is stronger with ropes fraying wildly but as distance from those spots is gained the unravelling calms down. The wave of this unravelling is uniform as per the shape of the dead spot.
Near wild magic spots the net will unravel wildly. It will create swirls and eddies, untangle in different speeds because of cross effects and possibly even allow for small islands of calm within the affected zone. 
In areas where the net was strongly anchored it will stay stable until all forces around it are uniform, then the net will simply collapse uniformly.
All these effects would of course work against each other. Still the majority of the net will unravel in good order without much fuss.

It stands to reason then that all the places and creatures touched by the weave will be affected when those strands that tie them to it are cut. The more violently ropes that tie them fray, the greater and wilder the affected changed will be.


----------



## Thaumaturge (Jan 30, 2008)

Voss said:
			
		

> Glad to see they ramped up  the inconsistencies.  The spellplague affected magical things, mostly disintegrating them.  Fine.  But some things 'changed'.  And some things, like Halruaa, blew the heck up.  And other things, like mythals and the like, were so magical they were entirely fine.  You know, because.   No, no reason.  _Just because._




That is one perspective.  One could also compare it to a room full of tightly bound balls of rubber bands, which are all cut at the same time.  Some parts of the room may very well explode, while other parts will sit quietly.  Other parts of the room may start out slowly, but will be affected by the exploding parts causing a cascading effect. 

What you see as inconsistent, I see as consistent with the chaotic after-effects of a cataclysmic event.

Thaumaturge.

Edit: or Nymrohd's net explanation.


----------



## Zaukrie (Jan 30, 2008)

Sounds interesting. Of course, I have a map that is like 10 feet by 20 feet, or however big it would be if you put all those cool 2E maps together.


----------



## Bishmon (Jan 30, 2008)

I'm not a big fan of warlocks as a core class, but the following quote has made me nearly change my mind:



> Many creatures that learned to cast spells and channel magic with Mystra’s Weave found themselves powerless in the Spellplague’s wake. Some never regained their power. Others worked to attune themselves to the new magical environment. Many required years to regain this facility, while others never regained the knack. Others took shortcuts to reaquire the power they’d lost, swearing questionable pacts to enigmatic beings in return for the ability to utilize arcane powers.



That's the best possible way I could imagine to introduce warlocks into a world. Very cool.

I also really like the sound of the spellscars. I hope they pull off some interesting mechanics for it.

All in all, this article had a positive effect on the chances of me playing in the Realms. It feels like it has more of a personality instead of the Generic High-Magic Setting I perceived it as before.


----------



## Keefe the Thief (Jan 30, 2008)

Shroomy said:
			
		

> Maztica is gone.




YES!   


Sorry to the Maztica lovers, but it had to go.


----------



## Elsenrail (Jan 30, 2008)

I was optimistic about 4E FR... but after reading the article I changed my mind. :/ Maztica gone? I can live withouit it, but Amn was a good place to have adventures... and the tales of Maztica fit well. But draining the Sea of Fallen Stars? Disaster.... Someone had to be really insane to consider it a good idea. Now I don't know if I will be buying 4E FR stuff (except for the campaign guide just to leaf through), because our campigns often took place on the Sea's shores (cities). The whole economy of inner lands now looses sense...

It seems they want to make plaguemagic something like Warhammer Chaos. Stealing the idea, it seems.


----------



## PeterWeller (Jan 30, 2008)

Elsenrail said:
			
		

> But draining the Sea of Fallen Stars? Disaster.... Someone had to be really insane to consider it a good idea.






			
				THE ARTICLE said:
			
		

> Broad portions of Faerûn’s surface collapsed into the Underdark, *partially* draining the Sea of Fallen Stars into the Glimmer Sea far below




Do people even read these articles?


----------



## Xethreau (Jan 30, 2008)

I like this article. Lots of really cool things in it. Things I find notable:
- Primal power source confirmed
- All classes use magic
- Lots of Realms fluff, very nice
- Plaguechanged creatures and Spellscars (which are sort of similar to Dragon Marks from Eberron)


----------



## Nymrohd (Jan 30, 2008)

I think Spellscars are more closely linked to spelltouched feats from Unearthed Arcana than Dragonmarks. Dragonmarks were mostly weak SLAs that people wasted a feat slot in either to enter a PrC or under the silent contract with the DM that the feat would allow them to play their connection to their house as a banefit.


----------



## Mirtek (Jan 30, 2008)

Keefe the Thief said:
			
		

> YES!
> Sorry to the Maztica lovers, but it had to go.



Why? What's wrong with just ignoring it? Why has it to be eliminated for anyone else too?


----------



## Nymrohd (Jan 30, 2008)

Well maybe because future supplements will detail Abeir and it will prove to be ubercool and awesome? Plus Abeir will have ties to Tymanther and Akanul (I bet Akanul is that warlock kingdom they implied in Vaasa's location, though it could be located in the Akanapeaks and surrounding regions).


----------



## Wyrmshadows (Jan 30, 2008)

I like the Realms and have, over the years ran multiple multi-year long campaigns there and I am 200% behind these changes. I am glad to see the world more tortured, devastated and ripe for heroes to save the innocent from the wicked.

Good stuff...good stuff.



Wyrmshadows


----------



## Cam Banks (Jan 30, 2008)

Mirtek said:
			
		

> Why? What's wrong with just ignoring it? Why has it to be eliminated for anyone else too?




Sometimes, merely ignoring something won't do the trick. In the past, I've been asked whether we can simply just not talk about something in Dragonlance instead of coming right out and saying it's not there, because eliminating it is needlessly restrictive. The thing is, sometimes it's just got to go.

Cheers,
Cam


----------



## HeinorNY (Jan 30, 2008)

How is "Abeir" pronounced?


----------



## Cyberhawk (Jan 30, 2008)

Aw man...Maztica and the Old Empires were two of my favorite spots in the setting.  

Oh well, just means that if/when I start up a 4E FR campaign I just slap Maztica back into the setting.  Cuz it's my campaign and I can do that.


----------



## PeterWeller (Jan 30, 2008)

ainatan said:
			
		

> How is "Abeir" pronounced?




I've always said it like, "a beer."


----------



## Eridanis (Jan 30, 2008)

Nymrohd said:
			
		

> Well maybe because future supplements will detail Abeir and it will prove to be ubercool and awesome?



This was my thought, too. Opens up a lot of design space (and opportunities to sell books). Abeir could be the place where all the Earth-flavored parts of the Realms could now be located (Maztica, Amn, Mulhorand, maybe Kara-Tur) and expanded on.


----------



## RigaMortus2 (Jan 30, 2008)

Mirtek said:
			
		

> Why? What's wrong with just ignoring it? Why has it to be eliminated for anyone else too?




Same could be said the other way too.  Why not ignore the change?  If people don't like it, ignore it...


----------



## hopeless (Jan 30, 2008)

*What does "abeir" sound like?*



			
				PeterWeller said:
			
		

> I've always said it like, "a beer."




I thought it was "A bear!" then scream and run...

Well given wht its going to do, that sounds about right...


----------



## Nymrohd (Jan 30, 2008)

W&M gave me the distinct impression that real world analogy settings are not something that interests WotC, not unless they are heavily adapted and intergrated so that the addition of magic to the culture of the game does not seem foreign but part of it.


----------



## Mirtek (Jan 30, 2008)

RigaMortus2 said:
			
		

> Same could be said the other way too.  Why not ignore the change?  If people don't like it, ignore it...



Because it's more difficult to built yourself then to just ignore. Oh, forgot, that's only if something is added that wasn't there in prior D&D, never when something that already was there is taken aways

Sometimes people make it seem as if all they care about is to gloat over what is taken away from other people, absolutely no matter that they never used it themselves and also won't use the replacement. They only seem to be glad that someone else is unhappy.


----------



## Dragonhelm (Jan 30, 2008)

ZombieRoboNinja said:
			
		

> Can I be the first to dub this "Crisis on Infinite Torils"?




ROTFL!

I thought it was the Realms' version of the Fifth Age, myself.


----------



## IanB (Jan 30, 2008)

Mirtek said:
			
		

> Why? What's wrong with just ignoring it? Why has it to be eliminated for anyone else too?




Elimination of the real-world parallelism from FR gives it a better identity of its own. If they want a fantasy Earth, that would be better served by either recycling Mystara or just doing actual fantasy Earth as a setting.


----------



## Dr. Strangemonkey (Jan 30, 2008)

Cyberhawk said:
			
		

> Aw man...Maztica and the Old Empires were two of my favorite spots in the setting.
> 
> Oh well, just means that if/when I start up a 4E FR campaign I just slap Maztica back into the setting.  Cuz it's my campaign and I can do that.




Or it means that you run a campaign in those portions of Maztica that have suddenly found themselves on Abeir.


----------



## HeinorNY (Jan 30, 2008)

Mirtek said:
			
		

> Why? What's wrong with just ignoring it? Why has it to be eliminated for anyone else too?



Ignore Pocahontas and Hernán Cortés? Nah, it must be eliminated like it has never existed in the first place.


----------



## Guild Goodknife (Jan 30, 2008)

Mirtek said:
			
		

> Sometimes people make it seem as if all they care about is to gloat over what is taken away from other people, absolutely no matter that they never used it themselves and also won't use the replacement. They only seem to be glad that someone else is unhappy.



Don't think that's the case. I for one are happy that Matzticas gone because i've always found it to be an uninspired and boring place. I never felt the urge to play a campaign or even a single adventure there. For me it just didn't feel very D&D like or fitting for the tone of fantasy i wanted. So, of course i'm happy that they replace this sore thumb with something new, something more thematically fitting to the realms, i might actually use. That's my take on it.


----------



## Guild Goodknife (Jan 30, 2008)

Dr. Strangemonkey said:
			
		

> Or it means that you run a campaign in those portions of Maztica that have suddenly found themselves on Abeir.



That's actually a very interesting idea! And pretty much the only way you might get me to play in Matztica.


----------



## The Ubbergeek (Jan 30, 2008)

Sad, sad, sad... Tackled on as much as they say, those 'real' parts were cool - Maztica, Kara-tur, Zakhara, hordeland... The others will probably go too.... ;-; Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy?


But I will live with it...  As long thematical equivalents or bits of them exist. There HAVE to be.


----------



## Cthulhudrew (Jan 30, 2008)

Yikes!

Why bother retaining the "setting" at all if it is going to be so completely and utterly rewritten?


----------



## Benben (Jan 30, 2008)

Shroomy said:
			
		

> Maztica is gone.




That is the best FR news I've heard since the gray box.


----------



## The Ubbergeek (Jan 31, 2008)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> Yikes!
> 
> Why bother retaining the "setting" at all if it is going to be so completely and utterly rewritten?




To give fairness, they are not rewriten - no retconing but crazy catastrophes.

Just a weird future.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jan 31, 2008)

Cyberhawk said:
			
		

> Aw man...Maztica and the Old Empires were two of my favorite spots in the setting.
> 
> Oh well, just means that if/when I start up a 4E FR campaign I just slap Maztica back into the setting.  Cuz it's my campaign and I can do that.



You could set a campaign in Abeir, and show what's happened to the kingdoms that have been sent there from Toril.


----------



## The Little Raven (Jan 31, 2008)

Abeir and Toril were separated by the Sundering (selfish elves screwing up a planet just so they can make themselves a dinky little island that they can't even protect from the drow), which was bound into the Weave, and when the Weave went poof, the Sundering was undone.


----------



## Noinarap (Jan 31, 2008)

I'm not sure if it struck anyone else this way, but the spellscar flavor reminds me of Incarnum.


----------



## UngeheuerLich (Jan 31, 2008)

Elminster is still alive. Thought someone should mention it.


----------



## Hunter In Darkness (Jan 31, 2008)

abeir-toril is one world not two.abeir-toril is the world of the realms .that and the whole weave nonsence saddly shows me that the FR design team eaither does not know     adout the realms or took a big crap on it. just make a new world stop     with the realms .

Admin note: The profanity filter is there for a reason. Don't bypass it, please. 

sorry had to say that . i really need to stop reading theis 4e forsaken realm$ crap. lest i have my 1/2/3e FR stuff so at lest i can play in the realms not some madmax beyound waterdeep.


----------



## PeterWeller (Jan 31, 2008)

Hunter In Darkness said:
			
		

> forsaken realm*$*




When are people going to stop doing this crap?  Who are you, frikking Fallout Boy?


----------



## The Little Raven (Jan 31, 2008)

PeterWeller said:
			
		

> When are people going to stop doing this crap?  Who are you, Jello Frikking Biafra?




Please refrain from insulting such a creative and reasonable guy like Jello by comparing him to people who think saying "Wizards of the Cash" is clever. It's demeaning to the man's intelligence.


----------



## PeterWeller (Jan 31, 2008)

Mourn said:
			
		

> Please refrain from insulting such a creative and reasonable guy like Jello by comparing him to people who think saying "Wizards of the Cash" is clever. It's demeaning to the man's intelligence.




You're right, and I will edit the post to make it more appropriate.


----------



## The Ubbergeek (Jan 31, 2008)

Hunter In Darkness said:
			
		

> abeir-toril is one world not two.abeir-toril is the world of the realms .that and the whole weave nonsence saddly shows me that the FR design team eaither does not know     adout the realms or took a big crap on it. just make a new world stop     with the realms .
> 
> Admin note: The profanity filter is there for a reason. Don't bypass it, please.
> 
> sorry had to say that . i really need to stop reading theis 4e forsaken realm$ crap. lest i have my 1/2/3e FR stuff so at lest i can play in the realms not some madmax beyound waterdeep.



Don't overdo coffee, man. It's bad for your heart.


Also, the end product may be actually good, who know? Maybe they know their stuff, and so it's the problem....


----------



## mach1.9pants (Jan 31, 2008)

PeterWeller said:
			
		

> I've always said it like, "a beer."



mmmm...beer, the cause of, and solution to, all my problems


----------



## SoulsFury (Jan 31, 2008)

I might be looking forward to the new Realms... I'll definitely be taking a look at the new setting book.


----------



## Cmarco (Jan 31, 2008)

SoulsFury said:
			
		

> I might be looking forward to the new Realms... I'll definitely be taking a look at the new setting book.




Glad to hear it. Well-met, SoulsFury!


----------



## 3catcircus (Jan 31, 2008)

Bleccchhh...


----------



## The Ubbergeek (Jan 31, 2008)

3catcircus said:
			
		

> Bleccchhh...




On what?


----------



## Sol.Dragonheart (Jan 31, 2008)

Fascinating.  I am very curious as to the full make up and implementation of Returned Abeir.  It sounds like it has a great deal of potential, and it certainly piques my interest.  Maztica is no loss for me, I never used it nor planned to in the future.  Halruaa was also a rarely mentioned, never used segment of the Realms for my campaigns.


----------



## kennew142 (Jan 31, 2008)

Wyrmshadows said:
			
		

> I like the Realms and have, over the years ran multiple multi-year long campaigns there and I am 200% behind these changes. I am glad to see the world more tortured, devastated and ripe for heroes to save the innocent from the wicked.
> 
> Good stuff...good stuff.
> 
> ...




I can't agree enough. Every FR post makes me more excited about the changes. My brother in law will be running a 4e Waterdeep campaign shortly after the release of FR 4e.


----------



## Dragonhelm (Jan 31, 2008)

ainatan said:
			
		

> Ignore Pocahontas and Hernán Cortés? Nah, it must be eliminated like it has never existed in the first place.




I'm a big proponent of continuity, and I tend to take Marvel Comics as a model to work with.  Marvel never acts like something never happened.  They acknowledge that prior events happened, both good and bad.  Spider-Man comics recognize that the Clone Saga happened, even though it was considered one of the worst Spider-Man stories by some fans.  Now, Marvel may not revisit this storyline ever again, but they won't pretend like it didn't happen.

I believe that we should look at Maztica in the same light.  No, it wasn't the absolute best region in the Realms, but it did happen.  To say it didn't happen would be insulting to the designers who spent the time and resources to create the product in the first place.

Again, you don't have to use it again.  As Cam mentions above, sometimes you have to address these things and put the nail in the coffin.  In WotC's case, they've done just that.  They recognize that Maztica existed and they have set it up to where it won't show up again.  While there will undoubtedly be those who are upset at this move, they still have the option to play Maztica in the pre-4e Realms.  

Now, what WotC might do is say that certain elements of Maztica have bled through and that they show up in the form of undead, or something like that.  Give new life to the old Maztican elements.  

That being said, I question whether or not this was a good move.  First, do we have to destroy an existing continent to introduce a new one?  Might the new one have become a setting all of its own that could have offered new possibilities?  

We should also consider that history is repeating itself.  This has happened before in Dragonlance, and to disastrous effect.  The game system changed, there was a time jump, and the world was terraformed.  All of that is happening here as well.  To the Realms' credit, at least the game system change isn't as drastic as going from AD&D to SAGA.  4e and 3e will be similar enough that it won't be all that bad.  Still, the Fifth Age in Dragonlance caused a massive split in fandom, one that was only cured by 3rd edition and the War of Souls.

Now, maybe this will be the best move for the Realms.  I suspect it will have some benefits, but I think the price will be a split fan base.  

Tread carefully.


----------



## Wyrmshadows (Jan 31, 2008)

kennew142 said:
			
		

> I can't agree enough. Every FR post makes me more excited about the changes. My brother in law will be running a 4e Waterdeep campaign shortly after the release of FR 4e.




I know I'll buy 4e, don't know if I'll run it because I am quite fond of True20, but if I do I can see myself running a campaign on FR. My last campaign stopped with the PCs at 18-20th level due to time constraints but they were all endowed with supernatural longevity during the story and would like to see the PCs handle the post-apocalyptic Realms....oh yeah I can definately DM that.



Wyrmshadows


----------



## Hunter In Darkness (Jan 31, 2008)

The Ubbergeek said:
			
		

> Don't overdo coffee, man. It's bad for your heart.
> 
> 
> Also, the end product may be actually good, who know? Maybe they know their stuff, and so it's the problem....




yeah sorry for the filter thing kinda forgot. no disrepect to any one here really.and i dont drink cafine of any type good thing huh  . and yeah i called it the forsaken realm$ with  $ becase there just useing the name of the realms with out USEING the realms. this is not a 4e issue in itself . i dont care if its 4e 4.4 6e 9.925e  its not the editions fault  the FR team took it out back shot it and made a flesh golem of it. thats on then not 4e itself . its really just a bad day coupled with the fact that as a old school FR fan,player and dm i find it well wrong to dump all that history just to sell more books to folks who hate the realms anyhow.
so yeah i guess i came off a little hash


----------



## The Ubbergeek (Jan 31, 2008)

While I didn't know the Grey box, I felt in love with that world one day, ages ago, and it became my favorite fantasy one at the time of the Dragons of Summer Flames.


While the changes could be explained and worked more, and somes are not my liking, somes do are, and we must perhaps also re-analising the classic critics on FR. Perhaps there was, indeed, a problem there.

So, I greet the changes, and will at least read it. I could always do a game in it's past, or use another setting, or even just stay 3,5. *shrugs* I didn't cry for Dragonlance, I never even called the new stuff bad - it wasn't. I just felt it was time for FR now.


There is 'fandumbness' going on though, I often feels like shouting at WOC 'Just kill the damn setting, so the ragers go away and be punished!'.


----------



## PeterWeller (Jan 31, 2008)

Hunter In Darkness said:
			
		

> so yeah i guess i came off a little *hash*




Oh, that's the problem.


----------



## Hunter In Darkness (Jan 31, 2008)

PeterWeller said:
			
		

> Oh, that's the problem.




yep thats mine well one of mine anyhow the voices sometimes out votes me. :\  it happens . for the sake of being nice now i am not gonna list all the thinks i think may be wrong with the guys over at wotc....corse 2 truckloads of redbull may be one of them. that and office lawndarts . anyhow  now back to madmax beyond water deep....do we get guns  i think its only fair that we get guns  and mutants i want dragon born mutants..driveing magic powered wagons up and down the nuked landscape...oh wrong game.


----------



## Kobold Avenger (Jan 31, 2008)

The Ubbergeek said:
			
		

> Sad, sad, sad... Tackled on as much as they say, those 'real' parts were cool - Maztica, Kara-tur, Zakhara, hordeland... The others will probably go too.... ;-; Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy?



I suspect Kara-Tur is still going to be around, possibly even Zakhara too.  

There might even be pockets of Maztica left, just so there's a reason to have Coatl and pyramid-temples where victims get sacrificed to a bloodthirsty Sun God.

Kara-Tur might look very different though, shaped by the events going on in the rest of the world.  Shou Lung possibly shattered into a bunch of smaller kingdoms at war with each other to emulate a bunch of Chinese Novels (the 3 kingdoms).  It would make that part of Toril into a point of light setting too, and give them the chance to make Kara-Tur a more fantastical place rather than an exact historical analogue.


----------



## Ipissimus (Jan 31, 2008)

Killing FR would be a bad move, it's a popular setting and WOTC wants to sell books. Nothing wrong with that.

I don't really think they're erasing Maztica, even if it's never been one of the more popular products. There's certainly room for jungle exploration adventures and heart-ripping Aztecs in the game. With any luck, they'll move it to Abeir with the other 'ancient empires' and shazam, you've got a whole new setting that seems to fit together a bit better.

After all, a historically closer aztec/european setting would have a renissance europe/spanish feel to it which the realms don't. No firearms... well, unless you count the contraptions of Gond, but by and large the Realms have a more Celtic/Norse feel to them.

As for the Spellplague, well, they had to do something to explain the sweeping changes they were making to the rules. Admittedly, what they've done is a little ham-fisted but sometimes pork is all you've got to eat. I think the Spellplague will provide some interesting opportunities for adventures, characters and monsters.

What did hit me, as an old fan of the setting, was the death of Midnight.


----------



## Khairn (Jan 31, 2008)

3catcircus said:
			
		

> Bleccchhh...




Yeah, that's about my thoughts on this as well.

After reading this latest article I fall back on my first impression of the FR changes ... poorly thought out storyline that attempts to justify any and every change imaginable through an incredibly inconsistent and arbitrary series of events.

Bleccchh .....


----------



## The Ubbergeek (Jan 31, 2008)

Magic can be chaotic and beyond 'common logic', though.


----------



## The Little Raven (Jan 31, 2008)

Devyn said:
			
		

> poorly thought out storyline that attempts to justify any and every change imaginable through an incredibly inconsistent and arbitrary series of events.




Holy Shades of the Entire History of the Realms, Batman!


----------



## Green Knight (Jan 31, 2008)

Dragonhelm said:
			
		

> I'm a big proponent of continuity, and I tend to take Marvel Comics as a model to work with. Marvel never acts like something never happened. They acknowledge that prior events happened, both good and bad. Spider-Man comics recognize that the Clone Saga happened, even though it was considered one of the worst Spider-Man stories by some fans. Now, Marvel may not revisit this storyline ever again, but they won't pretend like it didn't happen.




I just have three words to say to this. 

"One More Day".


----------



## Ahglock (Jan 31, 2008)

Green Knight said:
			
		

> I just have three words to say to this.
> 
> "One More Day".




Uhgggg.  i don't know what was worse one more day or the Gwen Stacy knocked up by Osborn storyline.  Marvel could use some serious lack of continuity now to remove the suck form there spiderman stories.  But hey ine one more bad story they are able to change continuity it marvel just like they are in the realms, "Magic".


----------



## Keefe the Thief (Jan 31, 2008)

Mourn said:
			
		

> Holy Shades of the Entire History of the Realms, Batman!




I didn´t want to say that, so i´m glad you did.


----------



## PeterWeller (Jan 31, 2008)

Green Knight said:
			
		

> I just have three words to say to this.
> 
> "One More Day".




Life is better if you ignore that and stick to Brubaker Cap and the Avengers.


----------



## Wormwood (Jan 31, 2008)

Green Knight said:
			
		

> I just have three words to say to this.
> 
> "One More Day".



If there was *ever* a better argument for reboots instead of retcons,  I haven't heard it.


----------



## Wormwood (Jan 31, 2008)

Mourn said:
			
		

> Holy Shades of the Entire History of the Realms, Batman!



Epic. Win.


----------



## Khairn (Jan 31, 2008)

Mourn said:
			
		

> Holy Shades of the Entire History of the Realms, Batman!




Well said, ole chum.    

For those who are delighted about the turn of events in the FR, I'm really happy for you.  I hope FR 4E is all you are hoping for.

For me, I'll stick with the "classic" realms.  Its got more of what I'm looking for in a D&D campaign.


----------



## Ahglock (Jan 31, 2008)

PeterWeller said:
			
		

> Life is better if you ignore that and stick to Brubaker Cap and the Avengers.




  I was actually responding to this and wrote a long post on comics, then I remembered how OT it was.  Ah well I'll leave it at not the current Avengers with Bendis IMO.


----------



## Dragonhelm (Jan 31, 2008)

Green Knight said:
			
		

> I just have three words to say to this.
> 
> "One More Day".




Well, okay, Marvel hasn't been a shining example of late...  

You know, I have to wonder why they didn't drop Greyhawk onto Toril.  Hrm...


----------



## Wormwood (Jan 31, 2008)

Dragonhelm said:
			
		

> You know, I have to wonder why they didn't drop Greyhawk onto Toril.  Hrm...



Okay, _that _would have been kick-ass.


----------



## Dragonhelm (Jan 31, 2008)

Wormwood said:
			
		

> Okay, _that _would have been kick-ass.




You could either make Greyhawk into another continent, or go the Hollow World route.  There's all sorts of ways to tackle it.


----------



## FireLance (Jan 31, 2008)

Shroomy said:
			
		

> Maztica is gone.



Not to get nitpicky, but doesn't the article say that the new continent appeared, "subsuming" Maztica?

And doesn't "subsume" mean "include"?

My interpretation is that Maztica still exists, but it is now only a part of this new, bigger continent.


----------



## Ahglock (Jan 31, 2008)

Wormwood said:
			
		

> Okay, _that _would have been kick-ass.




I'd want Bigby to finally kick Blackstaffs butt once and for all.  Circle of Eight so much cooler than the legion of mages in the realms.  Maintainers of Status Quo so much more cool than defenders of good.  

The Magic spellplague and all that crap got me to thinking about a end of 2e realms story that i loved which just couldn't work under 3e magic.  I can't remember his name but the Mage who invented Stasis Clone.(Clone back in the day was a separate you made at the time you cast the spell, not a lump of flesh waiting for your spirit, stasis clone kind of was liek the current clone in that the clone didn't activate until your death, but it still was a separate you not a lump of flesh waiting for your soul)  

Anyways some magic disaster went off and all of his stasis clones became active, and like standard clone they were all intent on murdering each other and were going insane.  So all these archmages were diving into back up stores of magic items and traveling the realms intent on killing each other until there was only one. 

 Awesome story, great hooks impossible under 3e magic and clone system.  To me a lot of the magic was lost in 3e the spells felt more regimented more mechanical and less magical.  I wander if the magic will come back for me in 4e or will it more further away into the realm of boring mechaincal feel.


----------



## Jürgen Hubert (Jan 31, 2008)

You know, I've always said: "Wait until we know more about the changes in the Realms before we pass judgement", but now that we have this information, I am somewhat sceptical.

Mind you, I don't doubt that a world going through such drastic changes could be a fantastic place for adventures - and the setting book might have very high-quality writing. But this seems to change what (at least to my mind) the Forgotten Realms were all about.

You see, I've always seen the Realms as _the_ "standard" and "plain vanilla" setting - a standard array of races and cultures (including all those Earth parallels), and a number of conventions that are now seen as cliches, but only because the Realms established most of them in the first place. All these changes at least seem to push the Realms into something else - something more post-apocalyptic (similar Scarred Lands?) and alien.

The end result might be pretty cool - but many people enjoyed the Realms precisely because it _was_ "plain vanilla". It was the one setting where everyone knew the conventions, and now that doesn't seem to be granted any more.


Side note: Did you spot the "Magic in the Year of The Ageless One" subheader? This _seems_ to imply that the "Year of The Ageless One" is the default starting year for the new campaign setting - but that year is 1479 DR, while the Spellplague was in 1385 DR. So does this mean we are going to skip a century?

That _would_ give lots of time for society to settle down again after the changes - but that also means that a lot of familiar NPCs, organizations, and nations will be either gone or drastically altered.


----------



## DandD (Jan 31, 2008)

> but that also means that a lot of familiar NPCs, organizations, and nations will be either gone or drastically altered.



Well, that was the intent for starting the new time-line at such a later date, wasn't it?To get rid of NPCs, organizations and nations they think don't fit in with their vision.


----------



## Sitara (Jan 31, 2008)

> *The secret of making magic items in a post-Weave world was relearned decades ago. Magic items are as plentiful as ever, as desperately sought by doughty adventurers, and as mysterious as they ever were.*




Umm yeah ok...someone should tell WOTC that plentiful is NOT equal to mysterious.
I guess this just states that FRCS and maybe even 4e will still have yon disgusting magic item glut.

The more things change, the more they stay the same I guess.


----------



## Spatula (Jan 31, 2008)

Jürgen Hubert said:
			
		

> Side note: Did you spot the "Magic in the Year of The Ageless One" subheader? This _seems_ to imply that the "Year of The Ageless One" is the default starting year for the new campaign setting - but that year is 1479 DR, while the Spellplague was in 1385 DR. So does this mean we are going to skip a century?



Yes.  This has been known since the initial information on the spellplague was revealed, I think.

I was never a Realms fan, but I echo some of the earlier comments wondering why they felt the need to turn FR into 4e's "implied" setting.  Isn't the point of buying a different campaign setting... getting a different setting?  On the one hand I can see their point of view ("FR is our flagship setting, it has to hew to the core as much as possible").  But on the other hand, they've basically just created a brand new setting that happens to share some location names & NPCs with FR.  And with some Eberron concepts thrown in, strangely enough (mournlands, dragonmarks).  These sorts of radical changes tend to splinter fanbases.

And I fear for the 4e Eberron conversion.


----------



## JLXC (Jan 31, 2008)

I am dissapointed.  I've followed the FR since there has been one.  I have the old books in storage still, and the newest one sits not too far from me.  I have nearly every novel, adventure, and Dragon article.  This is a huge slap in the face, no seriously.  I am amazed they bother, or even Dare, to call this brand new creation the FR.  It should have it's own name and the FR line dropped instead of this tavesty.

Entire areas just wiped?  I enjoyed Maztica a little, coffee in the realsm heh, but I had a special place for Halruua.  Just gone, poof.  Forget it, too much to type.

Calling this new place the Forgotten Realms is silly.  Just start a new line.  This is not come knee jerk response.  This is a response from someone who has played in and DM's the Realms in every incarnation to date.  I imagine a few FR authors are like, "Hey screw you!  Just gonna pretend I never wrote this? Nice!"  Not to mention those who have worked on FR products, and of course, the creators themselves.  Freakin nice WOTC.


----------



## Walking Dad (Jan 31, 2008)

Dragonhelm said:
			
		

> I'm a big proponent of continuity, and I tend to take Marvel Comics as a model to work with.  Marvel never acts like something never happened.  *They acknowledge that prior events happened, both good and bad.* *Spider-Man comics* recognize that the Clone Saga happened, even though it was considered one of the worst Spider-Man stories by some fans.  Now, Marvel may not revisit this storyline ever again, *but they won't pretend like it didn't happen.*




No, but they retconned the marriage with Mary-Jane, the Death of Harry Osborne and the public knowledge of the identity of Spider-Man....    

Bad example


----------



## vagabundo (Jan 31, 2008)

I'm on-board with these changes. It wont suit campaign styles that have a more _subtle_ storyline going on, but my players appreciate dramatic/loud events like this.

I like that they are focusing on the core of the realms (sword coast, dales, heartlands,...) and blowing up the odd places like Halruaaaaaa (urgh). Each of the places that have been destroyed I would never use anyway, I like they have replaced them with something I might use.

Going with the default rules set, as much as possible, for the realms makes sense. It is their most popular setting. I might wait to nearer Christmas to pick it up though. I'm going to run through the H modules in a POL setting first. 

At the moment I'm trying to blow up my realms in preparation for 4e (using City of the spider queen,Cormry: tearing of the weave and shadowdale: scouring of the land.)


----------



## The Little Raven (Jan 31, 2008)

JLXC said:
			
		

> I imagine a few FR authors are like, "Hey screw you!  Just gonna pretend I never wrote this? Nice!"  Not to mention those who have worked on FR products, and of course, the creators themselves.  Freakin nice WOTC.




It happened over a hundred years before the setting's new starting year.


----------



## FourthBear (Jan 31, 2008)

Ahglock said:
			
		

> Anyways some magic disaster went off and all of his stasis clones became active, and like standard clone they were all intent on murdering each other and were going insane.  So all these archmages were diving into back up stores of magic items and traveling the realms intent on killing each other until there was only one.



That was Lord Manshoon, the most powerful mage in the Zhentarim.  And I do like that plot, I think it may have started at the tail end of 2e.  I'm hoping that the rules for rituals allow for this sort of plot-device magic that encourages dramatic, interesting magic with more fantastic requirements.  For example, perhaps Stasis Clone requires a wicked sacrifice to create a clone.  This reinforces Manshoon's evil, keeps Stasis Clone out of goodly heroes' hands and presents the theme about shortcuts to power and evil deeds.


----------



## vagabundo (Jan 31, 2008)

FourthBear said:
			
		

> That was Lord Manshoon, the most powerful mage in the Zhentarim.  And I do like that plot, I think it may have started at the tail end of 2e.  I'm hoping that the rules for rituals allow for this sort of plot-device magic that encourages dramatic, interesting magic with more fantastic requirements.  For example, perhaps Stasis Clone requires a wicked sacrifice to create a clone.  This reinforces Manshoon's evil, keeps Stasis Clone out of goodly heroes' hands and presents the theme about shortcuts to power and evil deeds.





I'm really all for this. I really hope they expand on ritual magic give lots of juicy stuff in the PHB/DMG/MM. 

I would also like the FR Setting to have some of it's own rituals, nice fluffy ones. For me, 4e rituals are a selling point.


----------



## FabioMilitoPagliara (Jan 31, 2008)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> On reading I wondered whether it was going to be a re-concepted spellfire rather than dragonmarks.



thought the same 

all that blue fire made me think of spellfire


----------



## FourthBear (Jan 31, 2008)

BTW, while I was thinking about the plot with Manshoon's clones waking up and creating all sorts of havoc, I occurred to me that I would have missed that entirely if I had decided to do as I intended after the Avatar Trilogy and never buy another Realms supplement again.  I still hate the Time of Troubles and I could never run a Realms campaign with Kelemvor, Cyric and Midnight as gods, but I have gotten some good inspiration from the various 2e and 3e Realms' work since then.  I now always wait a bit more than I would to see if a new Realms product is worth buying, but I don't think cutting off my nose to spite my face makes much sense.


----------



## zacharythefirst (Jan 31, 2008)

I'm a little disappointed with all the terraforming/geographic changes.  I wish they could have worked the changes into the existing world without perhaps changing the geography, but I'm sure plenty of folks will be enthusiastic about it all.

But, again, Greyhawk's my #1, so I guess this won't affect me too much.


----------



## Storminator (Jan 31, 2008)

I'm pretty excited about 4e in general, and I've been dreaming up my own PoL setting for about a month now... and I realized I just don't care about FR anymore. I think most of the changes will make for good gaming, and I don't hate anything I'm seeing but I'm much more interested in making my own setting again than I am in published settings. I played a few FR games in 3e, and ran one. They were all pretty good. But I don't think I'm going down that road again.

PS


----------



## ObsidianCrane (Jan 31, 2008)

In the early 90's I was able to talk to Ed Greenwood a bit about the Realms, one of the questions asked while I was chatting with him related to Kara-Tur, Maztica, and Al-Qadim; his reply was to the effect that none of them were in his Realms, but he liked Al-Qadim and thought it fit the Realms. Of course maybe his opinion has changed and maybe the Realms is now radically different to how it was back when he first sold it to TSR, such that the comment is irrelevant. What I do know is I'm hoping Maztica is gone, really gone, I'd be glad to see it never get ink wasted on it again.

I also know that I'm seeing Warhammer/Morcock Chaos and Chaos wastes, I'm seeing fancier Dragonmarks, I'm also seeing the Spellplague = Demogorgan's plan from the Savage Tides campaign, Plaguemarked = Savage Creatures from Savage Tides as well.

There really is a lack of "new" ideas, but I see a lot of what I can easily imagine the WotC designers calling a "cool" idea. To which my thought is, just because its cool the first time doesn't make it cool for you to rehash it and put it out under a new label.

Yet despite the cynical comments, I might yet be tempted back to the Realms, for the first time since 2E, it sounds like the WotC folks are trying hard to make it so that the PCs really will matter and that there is a lot of scope to run campaigns where all those famous places/people are off in the background and irrelevant. Sadly that position is not likely to last long 

(Yes I hate the preponderance of FR novels, and think its a shame the "revitalized" setting will be taken over by the endless tide of novels...kami I hope most of the named characters die...yes Drizzt I'm looking at you.)


----------



## kennew142 (Jan 31, 2008)

Hunter In Darkness said:
			
		

> yeah sorry for the filter thing kinda forgot. no disrepect to any one here really.and i dont drink cafine of any type good thing huh  . and yeah i called it the forsaken realm$ with  $ becase there just useing the name of the realms with out USEING the realms. this is not a 4e issue in itself . i dont care if its 4e 4.4 6e 9.925e  its not the editions fault  the FR team took it out back shot it and made a flesh golem of it. thats on then not 4e itself . its really just a bad day coupled with the fact that as a old school FR fan,player and dm i find it well wrong to dump all that history just to sell more books to folks who hate the realms anyhow.
> so yeah i guess i came off a little hash




Or alternately, they could be trying to sell FR books to all of us old timers (fans from way back before the Gray Box) who like what they are doing.


----------



## The Ubbergeek (Jan 31, 2008)

JLXC said:
			
		

> I am dissapointed.  I've followed the FR since there has been one.  I have the old books in storage still, and the newest one sits not too far from me.  I have nearly every novel, adventure, and Dragon article.  This is a huge slap in the face, no seriously.  I am amazed they bother, or even Dare, to call this brand new creation the FR.  It should have it's own name and the FR line dropped instead of this tavesty.
> 
> Entire areas just wiped?  I enjoyed Maztica a little, coffee in the realsm heh, but I had a special place for Halruua.  Just gone, poof.  Forget it, too much to type.
> 
> Calling this new place the Forgotten Realms is silly.  Just start a new line.  This is not come knee jerk response.  This is a response from someone who has played in and DM's the Realms in every incarnation to date.  I imagine a few FR authors are like, "Hey screw you!  Just gonna pretend I never wrote this? Nice!"  Not to mention those who have worked on FR products, and of course, the creators themselves.  Freakin nice WOTC.




It's still the Realms. battered, hit, recovering, but still the same world at the base.


----------



## catsclaw227 (Jan 31, 2008)

Wow... I like this. 

I am starting to lean toward FR as my choice for a published 4e campaign setting (in case I don't decide to homebrew) instead of converting Scarred Lands or Golarion from Pathfinder.


----------



## sckeener (Jan 31, 2008)

I've 4 years of games tied to Unther, Mulhorand, Chessenta, Thay, Chondath, and Aglarond.

I'm disappointed to know I won't be able to buy more material to use in these regions. My game will continue.


----------



## Nymrohd (Jan 31, 2008)

Unther, Mulhorand, Chessenta seem to have been displaced into Abeir.


----------



## Rpgraccoon (Jan 31, 2008)

I liked the idea of Mazteca. However, never had the urge to do much with it if Abier or whatever adds too it and the old world. I could have a revised interest in that part of the realms.


----------



## Irda Ranger (Jan 31, 2008)

Jürgen Hubert said:
			
		

> You see, I've always seen the Realms as the "standard" and "plain vanilla" setting - a standard array of races and cultures (including all those Earth parallels),



Quite the contrary, IIRC the Gray Box Realms were all fairly unique to that world, with few (if any) Real World Parallels ("RWPs").  The worst of the RWPs, such as Maztica, came about after Greenwood has licensed it to TSR.  I think they got lazy in the design process.

I'm also quite sure that the RWPs (such as Maztica and Unther) got blowed up precisely because they were RWPs.  Worlds & Monsters made it clear that WotC thinks that D&D worlds (both the implied one and the settings) should be clearly distinct worlds that aren't easily categorized by Earth analogies.  Their reasoning was that if you just thought you were in 15th century France, or 10th century BCE Egypt, you'd lose some of the fantasy feel.  I agree with them too.  I also applaud the decision, because they have chosen the harder path (designing new, believable worlds) rather than the easy one (medieval copypasta) just so we can have a better game.  That's cool.


----------



## The Ubbergeek (Jan 31, 2008)

I will add however that real world copy can be fun.... It tied even to the 'it was a twin world to us' idea of old.

But well, as long as Maztica still exist in a way....


----------



## phoenixgod2000 (Feb 1, 2008)

I am devastated by these revelations. I realize that sounds like strong language for a fake world but that is how I feel.  The Forgotten realms novels were some of the first books I ever read and I've played and ran D&D in the realms almost exclusively since I graduated past the red box.  I have a very strong connection to this world.

This isn't my world anymore.  I don't want to play in this bizarre wasteland that used to be the realms.  Our current game is set in Maztica.  A past company of adventurers basically controls the sea of fallen stars.  I love the old empires and many adventures were set there.  I like Midnight and the endless parade of gods and demigods.  My favorite 2nd ed books are Faiths and Avatars, Powers and Pantheons, and Demihuman deities. Those three books, with all their detail have more story ideas per page than just about any other D&D books. 

They've taken everything I like about the realms and subsumed it with some half-baked ideas that have no connection to the vast history of the realms.  They've taken an amazing world and broken it to fit with their new mechanics instead of altering the mechanics to fit the world the way they should have.

In a way I should be thankful.  Now that the FR is so much ash, I'll get off my behind and do something new.  I'm thinking of using the Dominions 3 game as the basis of my new world. Lots of kingdoms and empires and Pretender Gods make good epic destines.

Congratulations Wizards, you've managed to make my almost twenty years of games and FR history totally worthless. 

This isn't a knock on 4e mechanics which I generally like so far--except for the stupid rings--just my feelings on FR


----------



## The Little Raven (Feb 1, 2008)

phoenixgod2000 said:
			
		

> Congratulations Wizards, you've managed to make my almost twenty years of games and FR history totally worthless.




Did they somehow travel back in time and ruin those many hours of fun that you had with your games? If not, then how is it that all those hours are suddenly "worthless," when you probably found plenty of worth while playing?

I'm sorry but "changes make my past gaming experience worthless" is a totally ridiculous thing to claim.


----------



## Nymrohd (Feb 1, 2008)

How did they make your years of games and FR history worthless?


----------



## phoenixgod2000 (Feb 1, 2008)

no, its not totally ridiculous. It's totally irrational.  There is a difference.  

I Love the books Enders Game and The Wizard of Earthsea.  I consider them some of the finest literature of their respective types.  But the authors (in my eyes) came out with sequals that not only were far inferior books, but managed to taint my enjoyment of the original books because all I can think of as I'm reading is the fate that is in store for them.

My brain obssesses over stuff like that. I can't not know what is the official canon of the realms and not have it taint my memories and my campagain. Maybe I should be able to, but I can't. I can't read the novel Silverfall, and not be horrified at the fates of my girls, the seven sisters.  I can't know that vast patches of the realms have been replaced and possibly destroyed and know that my group's characters were on those pieces of land and are now dead. I can't ignore the fact that the trials and tribulations and happily ever afters of my characters are essentially  gone and most of the characters of my players are eighty years dead.

Ed Greenwood's work, is in my mind, essentially optimistic. That is why I like the seven sisters and Elminster. they are joyful warriors for their causes.  There is no optimism in what I have read so far of the current realms.  Just the doom of what came before.

Jon


----------



## The Ubbergeek (Feb 1, 2008)

perhaps Greenwood is TOO optimist, too wishy wishy as a general?

However, even the 'classic' realms had some truly dark bits.... 

It's time that evil have more of a presence, more strenght. Heroes need foils.


Also, nobody is imortal. Elminster, Drizzt, the sisters, etc... they will have to die one day. And perhaps it's good. Drama can spring from deaths, stories. Hope, anger, revenge, despair...


----------



## catsclaw227 (Feb 1, 2008)

Nymrohd said:
			
		

> Unther, Mulhorand, Chessenta seem to have been displaced into Abeir.



Actually, I think that they said was:



> Across the Trackless Sea, and entire continent of the lost realm reappeared (called Returned Abeir) subsuming the continent of Maztica.



I am pretty sure it's not the same thing, but I am no FR expert.



> Where magic was completely loosed, the Spellplague ate through stone and earth as readily as bone and spell. Broad portions of Faerûn’s surface collapsed into the Underdark, partially draining the Sea of Fallen Stars into the Glimmer Sea far below (and leaving behind a continent-sized pit called the Underchasm). The event splintered several of the Old Empires south of the drained sea into a wildscape of towering mesas, bottomless ravines, and cloud-scraping spires (further erasing evidence of the lands and kingdoms once situated there). *Historical lands most changed by the Spellplague include Mulhorand, Unther, Chondath, and portions of Aglarond, the Sea of Fallen Stars, and the Shaar. * What was once called Halruaa detonated and was destroyed when every inscribed and prepared spell in the nation went off simultaneously. This explosion was partly to blame for destroying the land bridge between Chult and the Shining South—only a scattered archipelago remains.



Emphasis mine.  I am not sure if they actually said how the Spellplague has affected these areas.  Are there other quotes elsewhere that I am missing?


----------



## The Little Raven (Feb 1, 2008)

phoenixgod2000 said:
			
		

> My brain obssesses over stuff like that.




So, it's their fault that you obsess to the point of complete irrationality?

My point about ridiculousness still stands.


----------



## catsclaw227 (Feb 1, 2008)

phoenixgod2000 said:
			
		

> <snip>everything before this</snip>
> Congratulations Wizards, you've managed to make my almost twenty years of games and FR history totally worthless.






			
				phoenixgod2000 said:
			
		

> I can't not know what is the official canon of the realms and not have it taint my memories and my campagain. Maybe I should be able to, but I can't. I can't read the novel Silverfall, and not be horrified at the fates of my girls, the seven sisters.  I can't know that vast patches of the realms have been replaced and possibly destroyed and know that my group's characters were on those pieces of land and are now dead. I can't ignore the fact that the trials and tribulations and happily ever afters of my characters are essentially  gone and most of the characters of my players are eighty years dead.



I can't imagine what it must be like to feel this way.  Personally, I don't let my love of D&D affect my mood and my game this much.  In my eyes, and the eyes of my friends and family, it wouldn't be healthy.  I hope you can see this as just time to move on into the next part of your gaming life, and know that your FR years are good and everyone had fun.

if you have this much outrage over it, then it's not WOTC's fault.  You should look into the mirror and try to discover why it's like that.


----------



## humble minion (Feb 1, 2008)

It looks to me that WotC is redesigning FR to be a game setting rather than a world.  Distilling it, if you like.  They seem to have decided that the FR experience is exemplified by a Western-medieval party of adventurers from Cormyr/Shadowdale/Waterdeep questing off into the evil-haunted wilderness that surrounds Cormyr/Shadowdale/Waterdeep, and they've tweaked the realms to cater to that game style.  However, this is at the cost of largely redefining everywhere OTHER than the core regions of Cormyr/Shadowdale/Waterdeep as 'wilderness/ruin adventure territory' rather than 'regions of a living and plausible world'.  Double-edged sword.  It's going to be great for some playing groups and terrible for others.

Have to wonder though - when will we see the Abeir campaign setting?  Cos you know - the homeworld of the tieflings and dragonborn (who are locked in an ages-long war against true dragons) with the addition of Maztica, Mulhorand, and Unther sounds like a really intriguing and flavourful sort of place...


----------



## The Ubbergeek (Feb 1, 2008)

> Have to wonder though - when will we see the Abeir campaign setting? Cos you know - the homeworld of the tieflings and dragonborn (who are locked in an ages-long war against true dragons) with the addition of Maztica, Mulhorand, and Unther sounds like a really intriguing and flavourful sort of place...





Well, that would be more like a 'regional' book - or mini setting, derivative.


Seriously, that could be interesting - if specialy you can worldshift between the two.


----------



## The Little Raven (Feb 1, 2008)

humble minion said:
			
		

> Have to wonder though - when will we see the Abeir campaign setting?  Cos you know - the homeworld of the tieflings and dragonborn (who are locked in an ages-long war against true dragons) with the addition of Maztica, Mulhorand, and Unther sounds like a really intriguing and flavourful sort of place...




Well, as the world is now (once again) Abeir-Toril, I think Abeir went bye-bye. I think the newly merged Abeir-Toril is the extent of what remains of both worlds.

Another good sign is that their "non-Faerun" material is being written by Greenwood himself, so Returned Abeir appears to be a big chunk of what he's writing.


----------



## Ahglock (Feb 1, 2008)

FourthBear said:
			
		

> That was Lord Manshoon, the most powerful mage in the Zhentarim.  And I do like that plot, I think it may have started at the tail end of 2e.  I'm hoping that the rules for rituals allow for this sort of plot-device magic that encourages dramatic, interesting magic with more fantastic requirements.  For example, perhaps Stasis Clone requires a wicked sacrifice to create a clone.  This reinforces Manshoon's evil, keeps Stasis Clone out of goodly heroes' hands and presents the theme about shortcuts to power and evil deeds.




Manshoon thanks!!

I loved the story, I had plot hooks a plenty from just its core concept.  3e came what seemed like months later and the story didn't work under the new magic system.  We restarted so everyone was way too weak anyways but it was a disappointment that magic of that kind was gone and magic just seemed like a game mechanic to me.  

The first things I heard about the 4e system made me think they were going further in the sterile non-magical feeling magic, but the more I hear about there magic the more i like it.  I hope rituals pan out like you suggest, that would on its own make the magic system, for me.


----------



## Ahglock (Feb 1, 2008)

Rpgraccoon said:
			
		

> I liked the idea of Mazteca. However, never had the urge to do much with it if Abier or whatever adds too it and the old world. I could have a revised interest in that part of the realms.




I mainly dug Maztecca for what it added to auroras whole realms catalog.  I liked the story behind how merchants were securing trade routes and clamped down on magical methods of transit cutting into there trade.  That and I just like having chocolate, coffee, and cigars in my game.  

Still its a kind of cool setting, a bit of a disappointment to see it go in that settings or heck characters in almost any media rarely come from that region.  In comics there are only two minority groups, ok 3 if you add in native Americans which are mysteriously more numerous than Hispanics, and in RPGs there is just one Oriental adventures.  So to me it was refreshing to see a setting in a major RPG world that took ideas from a different culture.  And yes I am exaggerating though not by much.


----------



## Stogoe (Feb 1, 2008)

> no, its not totally ridiculous. It's totally irrational. There is a difference.



It's *both*, actually.


----------



## phoenixgod2000 (Feb 1, 2008)

Well my obessive tendencies are balanced out by my love of virtually everything so I rarely trigger off of something.  A few books, all things Harry Potter, and a few other things.

I think what makes me the most angry about the whole thing isn't the fact that they are adding to the FR, its the fact that they are replacing things in it.  If they wanted the spellplague to add a new continent or two thats fine, not great writing but whatever.  But the fact they had to go and replace already existing land to do it, irrespective of what players and DM's might have been doing with it is just plain disrespectful.  Disrespectful of the hard work and potentially awesome stories that might have taken place there.  

It's just rude and thoughtless and in the interviews that I've read, they seem awfully flipant about the changes they're making.

There was a whole lot unused space in the FR. Why did they have to take up already used real estate?


----------



## Loincloth of Armour (Feb 1, 2008)

If nothing else, this realms shaking event is good for bringing in >quote< _Great motes of free-hanging earth balance on nothing but air, amazing all those who chance upon these mighty demonstrations of nature’s glory._ >unquote<

Nothing, and I mean _nothing_ says "Welcome to a fantasy world" like having a castle sized piece of rock float lazily by.  See _Escaflowne_ for visuals.


----------



## HeavenShallBurn (Feb 1, 2008)

Loincloth of Armour said:
			
		

> Nothing, and I mean _nothing_ says "Welcome to a fantasy world" like having a castle sized piece of rock float lazily by.  See _Escaflowne_ for visuals.



I know floating islands has been cool since Gulliver's travels.  I've used them in homebrews for about 15 years, and not just castle sized either.  I've got entire cities built on islands in the sky anywhere up to the size of Long Island.


----------



## PeterWeller (Feb 1, 2008)

phoenixgod2000 said:
			
		

> But the fact they had to go and replace already existing land to do it, irrespective of what players and DM's might have been doing with it is just plain disrespectful.  Disrespectful of the hard work and potentially awesome stories that might have taken place there.
> 
> It's just rude and thoughtless and in the interviews that I've read, they seem awfully flipant about the changes they're making.




It's not disrespectful, rude, or thoughtless.  This hyperbolic nonsense really needs to be dropped.  Mearls didn't come in and scat all over your old campaigns or books.


----------



## Ahglock (Feb 1, 2008)

Loincloth of Armour said:
			
		

> If nothing else, this realms shaking event is good for bringing in >quote< _Great motes of free-hanging earth balance on nothing but air, amazing all those who chance upon these mighty demonstrations of nature’s glory._ >unquote<
> 
> Nothing, and I mean _nothing_ says "Welcome to a fantasy world" like having a castle sized piece of rock float lazily by.  See _Escaflowne_ for visuals.




Eh that part doesn't say anything to me but played out.  Heck isn't floating rock even in eberon.  I guess in any place as massive as FR you kind of need it someplace but it stopped being cool to me a while ago.


----------



## The Little Raven (Feb 1, 2008)

phoenixgod2000 said:
			
		

> Why did they have to take up already used real estate?




Because the people that liked those particular things were in the minority as far as WotC's market research was able to discern, and gearing things towards a larger portion of your audience is the best way to increase sales and grow a product line?


----------



## phoenixgod2000 (Feb 1, 2008)

Mourn said:
			
		

> Because the people that liked those particular things were in the minority as far as WotC's market research was able to discern, and gearing things towards a larger portion of your audience is the best way to increase sales and grow a product line?




Which I don't mind. But that doesn't explain why they couldn't add it as a completely separate continent instead of actively replacing one that already existed. even if it was a minority, that doesn't mean it couldn't have proven valuable as it was.  They wouldn't even have to talk about it.  Just leave it alone and allow it to exist and spend their word count on their spiffy new continent.

That way they don't alienate people who already are fans of the realms in all their wackiness.


----------



## The Little Raven (Feb 1, 2008)

phoenixgod2000 said:
			
		

> But that doesn't explain why they couldn't add it as a completely separate continent instead of actively replacing one that already existed.




If part of your goal is to reduce setting bloat, then making it even bigger would be detrimental to that goal, wouldn't it?



> even if it was a minority, that doesn't mean it couldn't have proven valuable as it was.




It didn't prove it's value in the past, which is why it got the axe. In fact, since the new Abeir stuff is going to be a big part of Greenwood's writing, I'd say that the new stuff is probably more "Realmsian" than Maztica was (being a real-world-analogue).



> That way they don't alienate people who already are fans of the realms in all their wackiness.




So, if you bought a campaign setting and it explicitly ignored every mention of your favorite place, you wouldn't descend into nerd rage? If something is completely ignored, what is the point of retaining it if you don't intend to use it?


----------



## phoenixgod2000 (Feb 1, 2008)

Mourn said:
			
		

> If part of your goal is to reduce setting bloat, then making it even bigger would be detrimental to that goal, wouldn't it?
> 
> It didn't prove it's value in the past, which is why it got the axe. In fact, since the new Abeir stuff is going to be a big part of Greenwood's writing, I'd say that the new stuff is probably more "Realmsian" than Maztica was (being a real-world-analogue).
> 
> So, if you bought a campaign setting and it explicitly ignored every mention of your favorite place, you wouldn't descend into nerd rage? If something is completely ignored, what is the point of retaining it if you don't intend to use it?




I suppose ultimatly you are right.  I just don't see it as setting bloat.  I see it as background detail that adds needed flourishes to the game to give it a more realistic feel.  I have players who've never so much as read a FR novel and they love the realms and don't experience any problems with the level of detail and I have other players who love doing things like going to the same party as Danillo Thann and Arilyin Moonblade or drinking beers with Mirt. Most of all, my players love the fact that all of our various adventures have taken place in a world where their past characters are still alive and doing stuff.  Between the time jump and geographical devastation, they're characters might not have ever existed.  
I know of at least one of my players who may not continue playing when we transfer to 4e. And we will, because I like what I've seen of the mechanics so far.

I hope you are right. I'll still probably buy the novels but I can't imagine having the same connection to the realms that I had before. It's too much a new world.  And one I have no desire to play in.

I don't even remember what Maztican references there were in the 3e realms.  When I set the RHoD in Maztica, I just used my old box set and made up the rest.  I don't care if it isn't mentioned, or only mentioned rarely--I care about somebody blowing it up.


----------



## The Little Raven (Feb 1, 2008)

phoenixgod2000 said:
			
		

> When I set the RHoD in Maztica, I just used my old box set and made up the rest.




And there's nothing to stop you from doing this with 4e, using 3e (or earlier) fluff, except some time and effort. I know it sucks to not have the direct support for exactly the things you want, but it happens, and sometimes you just have to take what you've got and turn it into what you need.

I've got a Realms-lore nerd friend who is a little miffed about the changes. He's planning on running a pre-Spellplague Realms game with 4th Edition rules. Neither of us are expecting it to be too difficult, because he's got enough Realms lore in his head to be able to fudge things on the fly as needed. In order to get him to agree to play in my 4e post-Spellplague Realms game, I agreed to play in his 4e Grey Box-fluffed Realms game.


----------



## BadMojo (Feb 1, 2008)

kennew142 said:
			
		

> Or alternately, they could be trying to sell FR books to all of us old timers (fans from way back before the Gray Box) who like what they are doing.




I've been playing FR for years and actually do like these changes.  It's more like the Gray Box and less like the "20 lbs of poop in a 10lbs bag" philosophy of 2nd and 3rd edition.  The setting was starting to collapse under the weight of all that meta stuff, and geographically there were no open spaces, no mystery, very few frontiers left.

I'm honestly shocked that so many of the things that came out around 2nd edition seem to have become sacred cows.


----------



## Spatula (Feb 1, 2008)

Mourn said:
			
		

> Because the people that liked those particular things were in the minority as far as WotC's market research was able to discern,



So Wizards spent money researching which areas of the Realms people played in?  I'd be interested in reading about that.  Link?


----------



## The Little Raven (Feb 1, 2008)

Spatula said:
			
		

> So Wizards spent money researching which areas of the Realms people played in?




Not publicly available. However in light of comments about user feedback, and the fact that a company wouldn't be changing what the majority of their audience liked (because that's just silly), it's the only reason those things would change since the "change for the sake of change" argument lacks any kind of evidence or support or logic.

It's like when Planescape fans argued there was no reason that PS should have been cancelled, and Ryan Dancey noted that their market research said something quite different.


----------



## mhacdebhandia (Feb 1, 2008)

Ahglock said:
			
		

> Eh that part doesn't say anything to me but played out.  Heck isn't floating rock even in eberon.



Nope - it's in _World of Warcraft_, though.  The Nagrand and Netherstorm zones in Outland have several floating rock islands.


----------



## Spatula (Feb 1, 2008)

Mourn said:
			
		

> Not publicly available. However in light of comments about user feedback, and the fact that a company wouldn't be changing what the majority of their audience liked (because that's just silly), it's the only reason those things would change since the "change for the sake of change" argument lacks any kind of evidence or support or logic.



So you have no idea whether such research actually exists.

Note: I'm not disputing that wizards conducts market research, I'm asking about specifically researching which areas of the Realms are used by players.


----------



## Mr. Wilson (Feb 1, 2008)

Random personal musings below which don't add much to the discussion but describe how I'm feeling in a nutshell.  Not really helpful to anyone but me in sorting out things in my own head.  Perhaps it's best just to skip past my post if you want to ignore the ramblings of one insignificant person.  Anyways...

Every new article makes it harder and harder to keep an open mind about the 4E Realms.  I keep saying I'm undecided and open-minded about the changes, but also skeptical at the same time considering the hamfisted ways it's taken place and being described.  The fact that posters are doing a better job explaining events than articles and hints gives me pause.  Perhaps the skeptic in me is starting to overwhelm my open-mindness.  I hope that isn't so.  Because there has been some good added, in that the warlock explantion is spot on.

It's funny.  I like, play, DM, and read Eberron.  I like, play, DM, and read the Realms.  So why does the addition of Mournlands in the Realms strike me as unnecessary and shoehorned?  Like a bad copy paste job that characterized the worst parts of the Realms in 2.0, IMO.  I suppose this also helps explain why I feel nothing for the loss of Maztica, but winced when everything in Halruua blew up.

Regarding the Unther/Mulholarand/Chessenta development.  Why invest so much time into telling a story in 3e only to wash it all away in 4e?  An unfinished story at that.  It just seems so...wasteful.  Or maybe it's because I was interested in the storyline and now see no official payoff, so to speak.  Or, more to the point, only a weak one, like, "Lol, they're all gone.  Look at the NEW stuff."

Fear of change could play a part in my feelings, I suppose, but I also like just about all of what they've put out for 4.0 mechanically.  It makes sense.  It's just the fluff that bothers me.  

Sigh.  August is still 6 months away.  Perhaps things will be clearer by then.  I truly would regret turning away from the Realms as my printed setting of choice after all these years I spent collecting it.  I can understand why some are having such a strong reaction.  I'll just hope things are explained in the Core rulebook.  If not, at leat they said Eberron wasn't changing much.


----------



## The Little Raven (Feb 1, 2008)

Concerning the Spellplague... *Bold* is straight from *Ed Greenwood*. _Italics_ and normal is George Krashos. Originally posted at Candlekeep. (lightly edited for spacing. 



			
				George Krashos said:
			
		

> Well here's the low down on the "spellplague" before it even was the "spellplague" from Ed himself. Given that the 100 year jump and the Abeir returning thingies are now in the public domain, this post isn't spoiling anything and I thought that the wider forum community might appreciate the insight.
> 
> *There are actually THREE references, all of which will really only be understandable "after the fact." One of them is the "Smashed the black star" curiosity that several scribes have been so fascinated by, and another is a CYCLOPEDIA heading (yes, just the heading). *_[Ed was referring to the "Abeir-Toril" heading]_*
> 
> ...


----------



## Nymrohd (Feb 1, 2008)

@Mr. Wilson

You are absolutely right in my book. In essence they are facing a big dilemma. They have so many changes (whether they are good or bad is not what I am debating) and they want to preview them all. On a less detailed world, a fast article like those we have gotten so far, would probably be enough to descibe said changes. But on the Realms, with their staggering level of detail, they can sound positively moronic.

They could skip some of the changes and post articles that detailed well (not even exhaustively, not possible in an article) each change that happened in the Realms. And if it was well written, or if the writter was not Richard Baker (He who must be stopped, it seems) but Ed Greenwood, or George Krashos, or Steven Schend (just some names), there would be little outcry and many loregasms. I mean I personally dislike Greenwood's novel writing, but when the man spins some fluff on a random location, he can make it come to life.

Will we get that level of detail on why the changes happend on the FRCS? I am not sure and frankly I don't think so. I would very much love a book like Eberron's Forge of War (I loved that book made my love Cyre even more) that detailed what happened during the Spellplague. Or a couple of well-written novels on that timeframe.


----------



## Sitara (Feb 1, 2008)

Lol, I'm still tickled by the fact that you can actually bottle this spellplague stuff and carry it around with you.


----------



## vagabundo (Feb 1, 2008)

BadMojo said:
			
		

> I've been playing FR for years and actually do like these changes.  It's more like the Gray Box and less like the "20 lbs of poop in a 10lbs bag" philosophy of 2nd and 3rd edition.  The setting was starting to collapse under the weight of all that meta stuff, and geographically there were no open spaces, no mystery, very few frontiers left.
> 
> I'm honestly shocked that so many of the things that came out around 2nd edition seem to have become sacred cows.




Ive only started gaming in the realms late in 3e(before 3.5e). Of course I new a little of it and had read some of the novels and had some 2e products. Even in 2e it seemed had for me to get my head around, the amount of stuff in it seemed unreal. It was hard to know where to start, where to focus. 

I believe the new edition will be much more focused and that is a good thing, it will probably use everything in the PHB and build on it and that is a good thing too.

My players have only wandered around some of the dales/moonsea and the vast for the past 3 years. I'm planning on moving them east now. 

One of the products that I really though was very cool was all about different Priests (2e) of the realms, each one was a kit or class I think. And each one had cool powers and it made them different from all the other, I'd like to see something like that again as religon seems to play such a big part ion the realms.


----------



## The Little Raven (Feb 1, 2008)

Sitara said:
			
		

> Lol, I'm still tickled by the fact that you can actually bottle this spellplague stuff and carry it around with you.




Why? You can bottle up Black Death and carry it with you. The Spellplague spreads like other plagues (with multiple vectors, it appears), has some people who are resistant and immune, and others who suffer the full effects. It's a magical plague, so why wouldn't it act like a plague?


----------



## Sitara (Feb 1, 2008)

Mourn said:
			
		

> Why? You can bottle up Black Death and carry it with you. The Spellplague spreads like other plagues (with multiple vectors, it appears), has some people who are resistant and immune, and others who suffer the full effects. It's a magical plague, so why wouldn't it act like a plague?




Umm, the spellplague is shimmery, glowy type stuff that eats through all it touches and blows things up by contact. It also mutates some things it touches. Among other things. *And*  you can bottle it up and carry it around. Maybe to toss around as a weapon, to light dark places, etc.

I dunno, I just find it cheesy, funny and ludicrous at the same time.   

Can't wait to see what other wonderful revelations are in store for us. (the entire continenet being teeleported away and being replaced by a continent from another planet in its place was a particularly good one.    As was the spellscarred thingy, y'know theone which turns its recipients into dragonballZ masters. Complete with glowing hair.)


----------



## Keefe the Thief (Feb 1, 2008)

Or you could take Heavy Magic, a form of magic which was created by the Netherese Arch-mage Karsus. It´s a gooey substance, you can carry it around, and bad stuff happens when you touch it. Has been in the Realms since 2e.

Of course, that has also been an idea out of DBZ, eh?


----------



## Nymrohd (Feb 1, 2008)

And you can paint it with spells!
Did I mention Witchfire? It is attracted to powerful magic and can give people spellfire! I mean spellfire is straight out of DBZ too! Those have been in the realms since the grey box.

The Realms are brim full of similar magical constructs. Why exactly the Spellplague is the one that sets people going is a mystery to me.


----------



## Dragonhelm (Feb 1, 2008)

Okay, I've got it.  Let's say that Maztica is absorbed into the new continent.  It's like the Borg, right?

So what if the ages-old struggle is actually between dragonborn eagle knights of Qotal and tiefling jaguar knights of Zaltec!  Dragonborn plumaweavers and tiefling hishnashapers!  The possibilities!    

*ducks!*


----------



## catsclaw227 (Feb 1, 2008)

Sitara said:
			
		

> Can't wait to see what other wonderful revelations are in store for us. (the entire continenet being teeleported away and being replaced by a continent from another planet in its place was a particularly good one.



Please read it again. The continent was NOT teleported away. Returned Abeir subsumed the continent of Maztica.

American Heratige Dictionary:

*sub·sume*
tr.v. sub·sumed, sub·sum·ing, sub·sumes 
To classify, include, or incorporate in a more comprehensive category or under a general principle: _"The evolutionarily later always subsumes and includes the evolutionarily earlier" Frederick Turner._


----------



## The Ubbergeek (Feb 1, 2008)

Kind of remind me of both torg and Final fantasy 5.

Hum...


----------



## Cam Banks (Feb 1, 2008)

Dragonhelm said:
			
		

> So what if the ages-old struggle is actually between dragonborn eagle knights of Qotal and tiefling jaguar knights of Zaltec!  Dragonborn plumaweavers and tiefling hishnashapers!  The possibilities!




Sure, I'd play that.

Cheers,
Cam


----------



## WhatGravitas (Feb 1, 2008)

Dragonhelm said:
			
		

> Okay, I've got it.  Let's say that Maztica is absorbed into the new continent.  It's like the Borg, right?
> 
> So what if the ages-old struggle is actually between dragonborn eagle knights of Qotal and tiefling jaguar knights of Zaltec!  Dragonborn plumaweavers and tiefling hishnashapers!  The possibilities!
> 
> *ducks!*



The way you say that makes it pretty awesome!

Cheers, LT.


----------



## The Ubbergeek (Feb 1, 2008)

Cool... hopefully, the humans remain though.


----------



## Twiggly the Gnome (Feb 1, 2008)

Dragonhelm said:
			
		

> Okay, I've got it.  Let's say that Maztica is absorbed into the new continent.  It's like the Borg, right?
> 
> So what if the ages-old struggle is actually between dragonborn eagle knights of Qotal and tiefling jaguar knights of Zaltec!  Dragonborn plumaweavers and tiefling hishnashapers!  The possibilities!
> 
> *ducks!*




If that's the angle they're going for, I'd be well pleased.


----------



## Nymrohd (Feb 1, 2008)

Hishnashaping Warlocks with some pact that gives them blood related powers!


----------



## The Ubbergeek (Feb 1, 2008)

Blood Magic like Aztlan of Shadowrun....


Hum....


I could like it.


----------



## Nyeshet (Feb 2, 2008)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> Yikes!
> 
> Why bother retaining the "setting" at all if it is going to be so completely and utterly rewritten?



It is the difference between using a well known and liked Product Identity and starting anew while allowing a well liked and known Product Identity to fade due to lack of support. 

The fact that they altered (literally) everything except most of the coastline and the names of a few NPCs, deities, organizations, and locations is immaterial in their eyes. So long as they who own the PI choose to call something "Forgotten Realms" that is what it is, irregardless of how little it resembles what others have come to like / know. 

In the end it is a gamble. They will lose many who liked the former setting and see the new setting as too different, but so long as they gain as many or more new players than they lose of former players of the setting, the change will be judged a success. With all the encouragement they are giving the setting (Living FR, first CS guides, etc) they have reason to hope, especially as players entering D&D for the first time will likely have an interest in playing in an actually defined world instead of the mapless and vague suggested world. 


I honestly do not know how it will turn out, but I think in the end they [WotC] will somehow make it work out for them. Despite that, I expect a few internet sites to pop up that specifically follow an alternate history, using 4e mechanics while constructing a completely different history - one not so disruptive / destructive to the Realms. 


I personally have started to call the (new version of the) setting "Abeir-Toril" (AT) rather than "Forgotten Realms"  (FR) (or "Faerun" or "the Realms") - mostly because I never commonly called the former version of the setting "Abeir-Toril," and calling it such now makes it feel (to me) more like the (almost completely) new setting it actually is. I find it much more easy to accept and view with interest the new AT when I disconnect it thus in my mind from the former FR. I find the changes that have been made to FR almost intolerable, but I must admit to having more than a little interest in further examining and playing in the new AT setting. The prior statement is only a contradiction if you view the AT and FR as the same setting - which I no longer do.


----------



## The Ubbergeek (Feb 2, 2008)

And yet, this is a future, not an alternate history.

This IS FR.

To say otherwise is irritating, juvenile to me.


----------



## HeavenShallBurn (Feb 2, 2008)

The Ubbergeek said:
			
		

> And yet, this is a future, not an alternate history...This IS FR...To say otherwise is irritating, juvenile to me.



This is *A* Forgotten Realms, it happens to be the official FR now.  But it's merely one way to do Forgotten Realms in 4e.  If you're going to build an AU timeline distinguishing from the new RAW one is kind of necessary.  And who cares what WoTC says about FR, at the table only the group's version of FR matters.


----------



## The Ubbergeek (Feb 2, 2008)

HeavenShallBurn said:
			
		

> This is *A* Forgotten Realms, it happens to be the official FR now.  But it's merely one way to do Forgotten Realms in 4e.  If you're going to build an AU timeline distinguishing from the new RAW one is kind of necessary.  And who cares what WoTC says about FR, at the table only the group's version of FR matters.




This is THE Forgotten Realms, as canon.

of course, you are in the right of going against the canon - I would be hypocrite to say that a DM can't do it.

But it is the orthodox, canon, real base one. Others are AU, not canon.


----------



## Mirtek (Feb 4, 2008)

BadMojo said:
			
		

> The setting was starting to collapse under the weight of all that meta stuff, and geographically there were no open spaces, no mystery, very few frontiers left.



This is strange considering that they did shrink Faerun for the 3e FRCS because it had too many room for their liking back then.


----------



## Primal (Feb 4, 2008)

Mourn said:
			
		

> Abeir and Toril were separated by the Sundering (selfish elves screwing up a planet just so they can make themselves a dinky little island that they can't even protect from the drow), which was bound into the Weave, and when the Weave went poof, the Sundering was undone.




Weird that Abeir is not (to my knowledge) mentioned in the Grand History of the Realms in any detail (I may be wrong, though). I also find it highly odd that Epic Magic or High Magic (i.e. 'Mythal-like magics') are able to "deflect" the Sellplag... Spellplague while even Gods and all the Demons of Abyss are powerless to prevent it from "reshuffling" the Planes. Talk about internal logic and consistency...  :\


----------



## The Ubbergeek (Feb 4, 2008)

Primal said:
			
		

> Weird that Abeir is not (to my knowledge) mentioned in the Grand History of the Realms in any detail (I may be wrong, though). I also find it highly odd that Epic Magic or High Magic (i.e. 'Mythal-like magics') are able to "deflect" the Sellplag... Spellplague while even Gods and all the Demons of Abyss are powerless to prevent it from "reshuffling" the Planes. Talk about internal logic and consistency...  :\




they do have the Seldarine on their side.

Also, things at times happen due to small actors. You don't need big canons to change a world.

A lone, single exalted serbian killed an emperor (?) and started so a world war (well, give an excuse to start the mechanism....).


----------



## Nymrohd (Feb 4, 2008)

I reserve judgement for the effects of the spellplague to the planes until we get a more solid approach to it from Mr Baker. I honestly do not understand the mechanics of what happened in the Faerunian Cosmology. I get the Abeir thing after reading Stardeep but for the rest of the planes I am still fuzzy.


----------



## Corinth (Feb 4, 2008)

Disappointed.  Not mad, not angry, just disappointed.  As there is only one game, there is only one world and to see it so thoughtlessly changed for reasons external to itself does naught but make me sigh.


----------



## The Ubbergeek (Feb 4, 2008)

Corinth said:
			
		

> Disappointed.  Not mad, not angry, just disappointed.  As there is only one game, there is only one world and to see it so thoughtlessly changed for reasons external to itself does naught but make me sigh.




Not so external, as the seeds of change are in fact taken from the old fluff, I heard... Cryptic hints.


----------

