# Messenger birds?



## candidus_cogitens (Nov 27, 2004)

In the Song of Ice and Fire series by George R. R. Martin, they use ravens for long-distance communication, rather like messenger pigeons.  I like the idea.

Is it realistic (not that it has to be) for ravens to be trained for that purpose?

In D&D, how much would it cost to buy a trained raven?  If you wanted to train one yourself, would that be considered a single trick (DC 15)?


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## fafhrd (Nov 27, 2004)

Training an animal for a purpose(messenger) might be a better fit.


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## Umbran (Nov 27, 2004)

candidus_cogitens said:
			
		

> Is it realistic (not that it has to be) for ravens to be trained for that purpose?




I think in the real world, ravens sit in an odd place for it.  You can train a pigeon for messenger service, and pigeons are dumb as stones.  Ravens are prety bright birds.  Bright enough to be easily distracted, and to have hteir own "ego" with which you'd have to contend.  You don't want a messenger that decides that deliverig the message just isn't what it wants to do...


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## LostSoul (Nov 27, 2004)

What's interesting about ravens in fantasy worlds is that they can speak a language (just have a look at raven famliars).  You might create a specific sub-species of ravens that have this ability.  I'm not sure if you'd want to leave them as Animals, or change their type to Magical Beasts.

You could also open up the spell Animal Messenger and put it on all the spell lists (except Paladin).  That would duplicate this sort of thing, although it is even higher-magic than the first suggestion.


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## The Amazing Dingo (Nov 27, 2004)

I've read the Song of Ice and Fire series and loved how Martin uses them in that function and how they always seem to be important to things and established in the world.  I had actually planned to install a similar system in my own homebrewed world.

Now, concerning the history of such practices, I am not aware of any.  I do know that, as mentioned, ravens are very intelligent birds and I remember reading about how some research proved them capable not only of using tools, but actually of being able to make them, which is on par with most primates.

Something else I know is that the pigeons used for messages are not so much trained as taught that a certain place is its home.  Then the bird is moved from there and then used as a carrier pigeon.  The pigeon merely believes it is going home while it is carrying a message.  So, in terms of reality, if a pigeon (or messenger bird) is bought, its destination will be limited to only one place.

Of course, in fantasy, a smarter bird is possible.  I know another term for a raven is "corvid" which I plan to use to name my birds should I use them.  Just adds a slightly different flavor and makes it seem like I'm not stealing "everything" from George R.R. Martin...though I'm probably going to use a lot more then just that.


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## Turjan (Nov 27, 2004)

candidus_cogitens said:
			
		

> Is it realistic (not that it has to be) for ravens to be trained for that purpose?




Well, I suppose Umbran is right in this point. In reality, ravens are too bright for this purpose and would see their own business as more important than what you want them to do. They are able to speak (i.e., repeat words or a sentence), although jackdaws are a bit easier to train in this regard (this was pretty common in Europe before parrots took this role over).

For D&D, I would not see a problem here, though . Just go ahead .


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## Dagger75 (Nov 27, 2004)

Well you could always use pigeons as easier and cheaper to train but not reliable over long distances.  Plus there is a greater chance of not getting the message through.

 Raven, are harder to train and cost more but are smarter.  Are able to go father and have a better chance of survival because they are smarter.

 Just some thoughts.


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## Lord Pendragon (Nov 27, 2004)

candidus_cogitens said:
			
		

> Is it realistic (not that it has to be) for ravens to be trained for that purpose?



No.  GRRM himself has answered this question in an interview at one point.  He liked the image of ravens as messengers, so he used it.  In the real world, they aren't suitable for this task.


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## Umbran (Nov 27, 2004)

The Amazing Dingo said:
			
		

> I know another term for a raven is "corvid" which I plan to use to name my birds should I use them.




"Corvid" is actually the name of the family of birds to which the ravens belong.  The _Corvidae_ include ravens, crows, jays, magpies, treepies, nutcrackers and choughs.  The entire family is known for being bright and curious birds.


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## Arcane Runes Press (Nov 27, 2004)

Well, in one sense, it might be "realistic" in D&D terms, because higher level characters who have focused their Handle Animal skill can do some extraordinary things. 

I could see a high level druid or ranger deciding to use his incredible ability to train animals (ie; his massive skill ranks in Handle Animal) to teach a raven to be an infallible, trustworthy messenger. If this was done in the campaign history's past, that could very easily translate into a new species of messenger ravens, all bred true from that first trainer's stock. 

For flavor, you could make these ravens rare and expensive, the kinds of things given as gifts to the most trusted servants of the kingdoms, and that sort of stuff.


Heck, you could have multiple types of these superior messengers, like falcons, owls, eagles, etc, each the breed of a specific kingdom or group. That way, you could do fun things like have the characters get a peak at an NPC's hidden aviary, and see 13 different types of special messengers - a good clue that maybe the NPC is playing all sides, and isn't to be trusted. 

Patrick Y.


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## Tonguez (Nov 28, 2004)

Up until early colonial times it was a practice in my culture to keep pet Tui  and to train them to give speeches of welcome to visitors.
I don't know if they were sent off as messengers but I don't see why it couldn't be done in a fantasy game



> The bird, called by many names other than Tui or Koko, was of great importance ...they were very often kept in cages and trained to speak and even welcome people to a marae.  Many of these birds were famous and even fought over...




Here is the text of a speech  given by a tui recorded by Sir George Grey (formerly Governor of the New Zealand Colony)


> Henry Stowell remarks, "What struck me about the speaking mode of the Tui was its silibancy ... every word the Tui spoke was clear and understandable."


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## The Amazing Dingo (Nov 28, 2004)

Umbran said:
			
		

> "Corvid" is actually the name of the family of birds to which the ravens belong.  The _Corvidae_ include ravens, crows, jays, magpies, treepies, nutcrackers and choughs.  The entire family is known for being bright and curious birds.




Thank you for the correction.  I appreciate it.


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## Tonguez (Nov 28, 2004)

The Amazing Dingo said:
			
		

> Of course, in fantasy, a smarter bird is possible.  I know another term for a raven is "corvid" which I plan to use to name my birds should I use them.  Just adds a slightly different flavor and makes it seem like I'm not stealing "everything" from George R.R. Martin...though I'm probably going to use a lot more then just that.




Just as an aside according to Legend Odin (the god) had two Ravens who he sent out as messengers who would report back to him on what they had observed - did GRR Martin 'steal' the idea of messenger Ravens from there?


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## Gez (Nov 28, 2004)

Odin's ravens are more than messengers. They are his Thoughts and his Memories. (Their names, Huginn and Muninn, mean just that.)

In _Escape from Monkey Island_, there are two parrots known as Huggin and Kissin. It always made me chuckle.


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## Umbran (Nov 28, 2004)

The Amazing Dingo said:
			
		

> Thank you for the correction.  I appreciate it.




Wasn't intended so much as a correction as an attempt to put more information at your disposal.  Ravens are nice.  But maybe another corvid might suit your purposes as well or better.  Having looked that tidbit up, I was thinking of using the magpie, myself


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## Vocenoctum (Nov 29, 2004)

The Amazing Dingo said:
			
		

> Now, concerning the history of such practices, I am not aware of any.  I do know that, as mentioned, ravens are very intelligent birds and I remember reading about how some research proved them capable not only of using tools, but actually of being able to make them, which is on par with most primates.



Yeah, I remember the one study. A pair of corvids had a bent tool that they used to get to a food supply for the test. At some point the male decided to take the tool himself, so the female made a new tool. 

Simple thing really, but something you really don't think of for birds. Outside of horror movies that is.

Corvids of one sort or another are in just about every mythos out there and giving them a sort of cultural signifigance is neat. It's just another element to the tapestry.

The problem opened up with speech is how much they would recognize what the words were. Could a raven repeat back what he heard verbatum? (a non-familiar one trained via Animal Handling) Would make neat spies.


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## Kilmore (Nov 29, 2004)

This being fantasy, there's no reason for the birds not to be intelligent enough to know that they are messenger ravens, and do their work as a job.  Some may be devoted to a cause, others might just do it for their paypeck.


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## Gez (Nov 29, 2004)

You'll notice the existence of _silver ravens_ (wondrous item), and also of the _animal messenger_ spell.


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## Tonguez (Nov 29, 2004)

Umbran said:
			
		

> I was thinking of using the magpie, myself




Except that magpies are evil beasts and anyone using them as messengers would be a vile deviant heading for damnantion

(or something like that  )


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## Hand of Evil (Nov 29, 2004)

Anyone ever see the Animal Planet show on Ravens, very interesting and funny.  Raven hold rank and arrangement with the English army and one was even relieved of duty for always going AWAL, he leaned how to pick his lock and would go off on adventures, it was amazing to see the Raven bend a paper clip to slip into the lock!


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## Gez (Nov 29, 2004)

Ravens can count up to 9. Various experiments have been made and found that limit.

For example, you had a raven that nestled inside an abandonned lumberjack's shack. If the raven was outside the shack and saw up to 9 men enter, and then fewer than that exit, it would not fly inside and wait for the last interlopers to leave.

But if, say, twelve intruders entered, and then only nine left, the raven would fly to the window (and turn back as soon as he saw people inside, of course).


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