# Star Trek XI: Will they ever learn?



## DaveMage (Mar 11, 2005)

Article on TrekToday:

http://www.trektoday.com/news/100305_01.shtml

Yes, since viewership declined for a TV prequel, let's have another one for the movie series.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Mar 11, 2005)

It wasn't the prequel aspect that killed Enterprise...


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## DaveMage (Mar 11, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> It wasn't the prequel aspect that killed Enterprise...




Not entirely, no.  But there is a certain loss of speculative wonder when you already know how the "metaplot", so to speak, plays out.  

That's partly why the Star Wars prequels (for me) aren't as exciting as the first trilogy.  We know what happens to all (or most of) the characters, so part of the mystery is missing.  (Now, that doesn't mean I won't be there for opening day of Episode III.  I certainly will!  It does look visually stunning!).


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Mar 11, 2005)

True. Though I think the fans of Star Trek wanted something that they just didn't get. Sure, you can't please everyone, but it seemed like there was a great premise for the show and it just went a completely different direction.

Its not a fault of being a prequel, but a fault of the writing.

And Star Wars is better anyway, so nyah.


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## DaveMage (Mar 11, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> And Star Wars is better anyway, so nyah.




LOL!

Yeah, let's start a Star Wars vs. Star Trek debate.  I'll bet that's never happened before.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Mar 11, 2005)

Well, I haven't actually seen one here on ENWorld, so it might be a nice change of pace from all this...tolerance! We're geeks on the internet, can't have that!

Besides, no one else is posting in this thread and I'm bored.


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## mojo1701 (Mar 11, 2005)

From my perspective, there are two main groups of Trek fans: those who like the franchise because of the history, and those who like it because of the sci-fi.

Those who like the history aspect, I find, also liked DS9. Those who liked the sci-fi liked TOS and TNG. I find myself sitting on the fence on this one, since I've appreciated all trek.

Now, the history ones, want to see HOW what we saw become what it is. We WANT to see the formation of the Federation. We aren't gonna fully get that on Enterprise because of the TCW arc, as well as only 4 seasons, but...


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## qstor (Mar 11, 2005)

Hopefully, its the Romulan war idea and 2. that it doesn't follow the traditon of having odd numbered ST films lay huge eggs.

That being said I did like ST 1 and 3.


Mike


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## mojo1701 (Mar 11, 2005)

qstor said:
			
		

> Hopefully, its the Romulan war idea and 2. that it doesn't follow the traditon of having odd numbered ST films lay huge eggs.




It said even before Enterprise. 160 years before Kirk's birth is a LOT earlier than 100 years before Kirk's 5-year mission. Most likely, it'll be perhaps something like humanity's first conflict, or something. I dunno. I think that's pushing it a little TOO early. Earth-Romulan war would be good. Or perhaps a DS9 movie. I'd love a DS9 movie. Sisko comes back and there's something wrong...



> That being said I did like ST 1 and 3.
> 
> 
> Mike




They weren't bad, although TMP does run a bit long. 3 wasn't bad, either. I don't understand most people's gripes about Insurrection, though.


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## Raloc (Mar 11, 2005)

Mojo, see the "Interesting Enterprise Finale Rumor" thread regards fifth season of Enterprise.  Personally, while I see why some people might not have liked the first two seasons, I think the third and fourth seasons are vastly improved.  I'm a fan of the history, so I like it anyway.


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## Khayman (Mar 11, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> True. Though I think the fans of Star Trek wanted something that they just didn't get. Sure, you can't please everyone, but it seemed like there was a great premise for the show and it just went a completely different direction.




Sort of how I feel about _Voyager _ --- nice premise, lousy execution. But that's just me. I'm aware that some people actually liked that thing.

ps. Trek rulz!!! Lucas UR teh suck!


_Ow. _ It actually hurt my brain to type like that.


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## Ranger REG (Mar 11, 2005)

DaveMage said:
			
		

> That's partly why the Star Wars prequels (for me) aren't as exciting as the first trilogy.  We know what happens to all (or most of) the characters, so part of the mystery is missing.  (Now, that doesn't mean I won't be there for opening day of Episode III.  I certainly will!  It does look visually stunning!).



Perhaps, but some of us like to know how they came to be. Which is why I still watched _Smallville,_ even though I know Clark is going to become _Superman, Lex Luthor_ is going to be his main villain, and Lana is not going to marry Clark.

As for _Star Trek,_ if there is any story or event I want to see in that universe, is the Earth-Romulan War which will lead into the formation of the UFP.

IOW, no more craps from Braga.


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## DaveMage (Mar 11, 2005)

I've watched all the Star Trek series.

The only time I've ever disliked it was the early seasons of Voyager, where they kept encountering the same enemy over and over (the Kazan?), even though they were supposedly going straight home.  (I mean, how stupid can you get?)  And yet, I still watched it.  Now Voyager had its moments, but in reality it was pooly written (IMO).

I think that what's being proposed for Trek XI is bad simply because if they are going into the past, and taking out all we know about Star Trek (especially from a character point of view) and working with a "blank slate", then why bother calling it Star Trek?  Just make a cool SF movie.


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## DaveMage (Mar 11, 2005)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> As for _Star Trek,_ if there is any story or event I want to see in that universe, is the Earth-Romulan War which will lead into the formation of the UFP.




But if they do an Earth-Romulan war movie now, how could they not draw on the Enterprise series for some of its characters?

(And if they do, that would eliminate the so-called "blank slate" that the article mentions.)

What I really want is a series set after (or even way after) the events of Nemesis - on the Enterprise (be it Ent-E or Ent-F).  Let's go back to the future...


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## Ranger REG (Mar 11, 2005)

DaveMage said:
			
		

> What I really want is a series set after (or even way after) the events of Nemesis - on the Enterprise (be it Ent-E or Ent-F).  Let's go back to the future...



As much as I want to see the Big E (yeah, I still love that _Sovereign-_class Heavy Explorer), the _TNG_ cast is pretty much done for. Even fan attitude indicate that Riker is not going to be the kind of "star" captain they want to watch, which is fine for Jonathan Frakes despite grounding _Thunderbirds_ to a halt.

If there is going to be a 24th-century _Trek_ series, the franchise need to clean house first, and that means getting rid of Berman and Braga.

Keep in mind, there is little chance for fresh original stories since it is possible it has been done before in the previous five _Trek_ series and ten _Trek_ films. IOW, expect one original story for every ten rehashed.


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## Ranger REG (Mar 11, 2005)

DaveMage said:
			
		

> I've watched all the Star Trek series.
> 
> The only time I've ever disliked it was the early seasons of Voyager, where they kept encountering the same enemy over and over (the Kazan?), even though they were supposedly going straight home.  (I mean, how stupid can you get?)  And yet, I still watched it.  Now Voyager had its moments, but in reality it was pooly written (IMO).



The early moments of _Voyager_ before Braga? I kinda like it, despite the "alien of the week" theme.

It's when Braga took over did it flushed down into apathy. Less focus on the original cast member and more on soon-to-be girlfriend Jeri Ryan and her Seven of Nine character. And his stories are awful, with awful pacing, especially where the rushed up the climax and the epilogue of the story.




			
				DaveMage said:
			
		

> I think that what's being proposed for Trek XI is bad simply because if they are going into the past, and taking out all we know about Star Trek (especially from a character point of view) and working with a "blank slate", then why bother calling it Star Trek?  Just make a cool SF movie.



Because the _Star Trek_ franchise is behind the development, not just Paramount. Paramount can make sci-fi films without the help of the franchise.


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## EricNoah (Mar 11, 2005)

> Star Trek XI: Will They Ever Learn?




Now that's a good title for a movie!


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## Ranger REG (Mar 11, 2005)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> Now that's a good title for a movie!



Yeah, it goes up there with _Star Wars Episode 3: Lucas Just Doesn't Get It_


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## Silver Moon (Mar 11, 2005)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> Which is why I still watched _Smallville,_ even though I know Clark is going to become _Superman, Lex Luthor_ is going to be his main villain, and Lana is not going to marry Clark.



Damn, you should have put in a spoiler warning!  Now you've gone and ruined the whole series for me.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Mar 11, 2005)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> Now that's a good title for a movie!



 Well, if we take a cue from the Simpsons, we'll be looking forward to the ORIGINAL Trek cast coming back in...

Star Trek XII: So Very Tired...


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## Tanager (Mar 12, 2005)

DaveMage said:
			
		

> LOL!
> 
> Yeah, let's start a Star Wars vs. Star Trek debate.  I'll bet that's never happened before.





Ok, if a stormtrooper, who as we know can never hit anything, shoots a redshirt, who as we know can never NOT get hit, what happens?


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## DaveMage (Mar 12, 2005)

Tanager said:
			
		

> Ok, if a stormtrooper, who as we know can never hit anything, shoots a redshirt, who as we know can never NOT get hit, what happens?




That would most certainly cause a rift in the space-time continuum.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Mar 12, 2005)

DaveMage said:
			
		

> That would most certainly cause a rift in the space-time continuum.



 Which is exactly how Star Wars vs. Star Trek vs. Babylon Five discussion occur.


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## David Howery (Mar 12, 2005)

I was on Morpheus recently looking for trailers to download on SW ep. 3, when I ran across a wierd little film called "Space Battles"... it looks like some guy made it in his basement with 10 year old CGI equipment and breaks a zillion copyright laws, but it's pretty neat anyway.  Basically, the guy took a lot of ships from ST, SW, BG, and B5, and had them all fight each other.  So, you have Vipers and X-wings taking on Tie fighters, the Galactica and an Imperial star destroyer slugging it out, and Voyager flying over an AT-AT and torpedoing it...


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## Tarrasque Wrangler (Mar 12, 2005)

> Ok, if a stormtrooper, who as we know can never hit anything,




Hey now. They didn't seem to have any trouble making skeletons out of Owen and Beru, and even made the hit on the Jawa sandcrawler sorta look like Tusken Raiders did it! The Keystone Kops of RotJ bear little resemblance to the old lady-vaporizing badasses of ANH.


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## Ghostwind (Mar 12, 2005)

David Howery said:
			
		

> I was on Morpheus recently looking for trailers to download on SW ep. 3, when I ran across a wierd little film called "Space Battles"... it looks like some guy made it in his basement with 10 year old CGI equipment and breaks a zillion copyright laws, but it's pretty neat anyway. Basically, the guy took a lot of ships from ST, SW, BG, and B5, and had them all fight each other. So, you have Vipers and X-wings taking on Tie fighters, the Galactica and an Imperial star destroyer slugging it out, and Voyager flying over an AT-AT and torpedoing it...




I have that movie on my hard drive still. I wish the guy did a sequel. It was quite entertaining and quite pioneering for the time that it was created.


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## Mark (Mar 12, 2005)

Ghostwind said:
			
		

> I have that movie on my hard drive still. I wish the guy did a sequel.




_But the bloggers would tear him a new one for not honoring the canon of his first effort..._


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## Squire James (Mar 12, 2005)

Tarrasque Wrangler said:
			
		

> Hey now. They didn't seem to have any trouble making skeletons out of Owen and Beru, and even made the hit on the Jawa sandcrawler sorta look like Tusken Raiders did it! The Keystone Kops of RotJ bear little resemblance to the old lady-vaporizing badasses of ANH.




Yeah, but the stormtroopers failed to hit anything on-screen, so how do we know the Tusken Raiders didn't really do everything after all?  Obi-Wan might have lied about that to rile up Luke and all.  I can imagine some scene back at the cantina:

VADER (counting out money):  "Take out a random Jawa sandcruiser.  Hm.  Not evil enough.  Well, take out my half-brother Owen's farm too!"

TUSKEN RAIDER:  Unnngh?  (Huh?)

VADER (shaking his fist):  "Unlike my incompetent Jango Fett wannabes, your weapons actually seem capable of doing harm!"


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## Welverin (Mar 12, 2005)

DaveMage said:
			
		

> I think that what's being proposed for Trek XI is bad simply because if they are going into the past, and taking out all we know about Star Trek (especially from a character point of view) and working with a "blank slate", then why bother calling it Star Trek?  Just make a cool SF movie.




Problem is it's hollywood, and the people out there assume that if something does bad that we weren't interest for some reason, never that it just wasn't any good. So if something does poorly they'll just make something different and hope that works istead of just trying to improve what they did before.


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## Orius (Mar 13, 2005)

qstor said:
			
		

> Hopefully, its the Romulan war idea and 2. that it doesn't follow the traditon of having odd numbered ST films lay huge eggs.




Well, Nemesis went poorly, so it kind of threw the pattern out of whack:

IV:  Good
V: Suck
VI: Good
VII: Suck
VIII: Good
IX: Suck
X: Suck
XI: Maybe good?

And a Romulan War movie has been talked about for a while, so chances are good any future Trek movie will touch upon that.  Hiring an outsider who knows little about Trek might not be the greatest idea, they did that with X, and I think that helped it to flop (well, the lame-ass plot certainly tanked the movie thouroughly too.)  But then people who've worked on Trek for a while (I need not mention any names, since someone else will anyway) haven't exactly been delivering quality Trek lately, so fresh blood for a movie might help too.


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## Orius (Mar 13, 2005)

David Howery said:
			
		

> I was on Morpheus recently looking for trailers to download on SW ep. 3, when I ran across a wierd little film called "Space Battles"... it looks like some guy made it in his basement with 10 year old CGI equipment and breaks a zillion copyright laws, but it's pretty neat anyway.  Basically, the guy took a lot of ships from ST, SW, BG, and B5, and had them all fight each other.  So, you have Vipers and X-wings taking on Tie fighters, the Galactica and an Imperial star destroyer slugging it out, and Voyager flying over an AT-AT and torpedoing it...




Bah.

How can you mention this without posting a link?


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## David Howery (Mar 13, 2005)

Orius said:
			
		

> Bah.
> 
> How can you mention this without posting a link?



I found it on Morpheus, a file sharing system.... no link to post... I bet if you Google it, you could find it though....


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## mojo1701 (Mar 13, 2005)

Orius said:
			
		

> Well, Nemesis went poorly, so it kind of threw the pattern out of whack:
> 
> IV:  Good
> V: Suck
> ...




What happened to I, II and III? Besides, even within the Odd and Even categories, there's still varying levels of good and bad. I thought, out of the odds, III and IX were good enough.



> _Hiring an outsider who knows little about Trek might not be the greatest idea_




Are you referring to director or writer? Because the writer, John Logan, stated that he IS a Trek fan, IIRC.


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## DaveMage (Mar 13, 2005)

mojo1701 said:
			
		

> Are you referring to director or writer? Because the writer, John Logan, stated that he IS a Trek fan, IIRC.




I think he's referring to the hired writer for the next movie, who has said he hasn't been a fan.


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## mojo1701 (Mar 13, 2005)

DaveMage said:
			
		

> I think he's referring to the hired writer for the next movie, who has said he hasn't been a fan.




Oh. I think he should be writing with someone else to keep track of him and proofread, etc.


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## Ranger REG (Mar 14, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Its not a fault of being a prequel, but a fault of the writing.



Amen.



			
				Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> And Star Wars is better anyway, so nyah.



Meh. Even a village idiot can understand a simple story of good and evil. But try to make him understand why a lady who believe in peace had to die in order to preserve our tragic history so we can endure, he'd resign his title and take a short walk off a long cliff.


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## Ranger REG (Mar 14, 2005)

mojo1701 said:
			
		

> Are you referring to director or writer? Because the writer, John Logan, stated that he IS a Trek fan, IIRC.



Was it Mr. Logan's idea to introduce Romulan's mysterious second-class citizens, the Remans? If that is the case and I run into him in Hawaii, I will first praise his work on _Gladiator_ then I will literally and physically slap him upside his head for _NEMESIS._


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## mojo1701 (Mar 14, 2005)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> Was it Mr. Logan's idea to introduce Romulan's mysterious second-class citizens, the Remans? If that is the case and I run into him in Hawaii, I will first praise his work on _Gladiator_ then I will literally and physically slap him upside his head for _NEMESIS._




Not sure, but the story credits involve Brent Spiner and Rick Berman as well. Spiner gets the credit for anything Data-related (Spiner wanted Data dead, and I think it might've been his idea for the B-4 as well, but I'm not sure).

I didn't mind the Remans. I just think that he just made the relationships a bit confusing. That, and he attempted to remake Khan. Picard already has his Khan, and it's the Borg. I REALLY hated the super-strength of the Scimitar. (Massive) firing under cloak, shields WHILE cloaked, impenetrable cloak? No, thanks. You do NOT need to make a villain super-strong to show how hard it is to overcome him. Kirk overcame Khan, and he didn't even come face-to-face with him. It was all through audio and the first time he saw him in the movie through a viewscreen.

That being said, I did enjoy the final sequence (i.e. the Battle of the Bassen Rift), especially Troi finding the ship.

_Edit: http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/community/chat/archive/transcript/1355.html. StarTrek.com's transcript with John Logan (screenwriter)http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/community/chat/archive/transcript/1357.html.
StarTrek.com's transcript with Stuart Baird (Director)._

Go nuts.


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## Orius (Mar 14, 2005)

mojo1701 said:
			
		

> What happened to I, II and III? Besides, even within the Odd and Even categories, there's still varying levels of good and bad. I thought, out of the odds, III and IX were good enough.




Because I and III don't really fit the pattern.  TMP is fairly slow paced for a movie, but it's really more of a character movie than an action film, and it does well in that regard.  The Search for Spock is one of the better Trek films, despite being odd-numbered.  Some might argue about that, but the movie does tie up the loose ends left at the end of Star Trek II pretty well, and it also intorduced some pretty major Trek elements, like the Klingon Birds-of-Prey, the Klingon language, etc.


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## Ghostwind (Mar 14, 2005)

Orius said:
			
		

> Bah.
> 
> How can you mention this without posting a link?




If you're really interested, I can probably stick it up on my site for everyone to download.


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## Ranger REG (Mar 14, 2005)

mojo1701 said:
			
		

> I didn't mind the Remans.



I do mind. They shouldn't be there. Romulans can be its own enemy. You got two good ones: Major Sela and Tomalak. Either or both should be the leading villains with that clone actually working for them as assassins.


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## DaveMage (Mar 14, 2005)

Orius said:
			
		

> Because I and III don't really fit the pattern.  TMP is fairly slow paced for a movie, but it's really more of a character movie than an action film, and it does well in that regard.  The Search for Spock is one of the better Trek films, despite being odd-numbered.  Some might argue about that, but the movie does tie up the loose ends left at the end of Star Trek II pretty well, and it also intorduced some pretty major Trek elements, like the Klingon Birds-of-Prey, the Klingon language, etc.




The Search for Spock is my favorite of all of the movies.


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## Orius (Mar 14, 2005)

Ghostwind said:
			
		

> If you're really interested, I can probably stick it up on my site for everyone to download.




Sure, go ahead if you'd like.  It sounds like it would be a hoot to watch.


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## Tyler Do'Urden (Mar 15, 2005)

mojo1701 said:
			
		

> They weren't bad, although TMP does run a bit long. 3 wasn't bad, either. I don't understand most people's gripes about Insurrection, though.




Insurrection?  That movie never happened.  Nope, don't know what you're talking about.  First Contact was the last TNG movie before Nemesis (which didn't happen either).  In fact, there hasn't been a Star Trek movie since First Contact... what happened to that franchise?


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## mojo1701 (Mar 15, 2005)

Tyler Do'Urden said:
			
		

> Insurrection?  That movie never happened.  Nope, don't know what you're talking about.  First Contact was the last TNG movie before Nemesis (which didn't happen either).  In fact, there hasn't been a Star Trek movie since First Contact... what happened to that franchise?




You people make me sick. 

No, seriously, I think I caught something .


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## Darth K'Trava (Mar 15, 2005)

qstor said:
			
		

> Hopefully, its the Romulan war idea and 2. that it doesn't follow the traditon of having odd numbered ST films lay huge eggs.
> 
> That being said I did like ST 1 and 3.
> 
> ...




However, I liked 2, 3, 4, 6. The rest are "eh" and 1 was boring as hell.


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## Darth K'Trava (Mar 15, 2005)

Khayman said:
			
		

> Sort of how I feel about _Voyager _ --- nice premise, lousy execution. But that's just me. I'm aware that some people actually liked that thing.




I liked better the original show with the same premise: Gilligan's Island.


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## Darth K'Trava (Mar 15, 2005)

David Howery said:
			
		

> I found it on _Not here, thanks_, a file sharing system.... no link to post... I bet if you Google it, you could find it though....




And if he did post a link, then it'd get removed. _ Yes, it would.  And also trying to give directions leads to things being deleted.  As a matter of fact, I'm going to recommend all discussion of filesharing systems end, as they're you know, illegal.  Thanks.  --Dinkeldog_


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## Dinkeldog (Mar 15, 2005)

Orius said:
			
		

> Well, Nemesis went poorly, so it kind of threw the pattern out of whack:
> 
> V: Suck
> 
> And a Romulan War movie has been talked about for a while, so chances are good any future Trek movie will touch upon that.  Hiring an outsider who knows little about Trek might not be the greatest idea, they did that with X, and I think that helped it to flop (well, the lame-ass plot certainly tanked the movie thouroughly too.)  But then people who've worked on Trek for a while (I need not mention any names, since someone else will anyway) haven't exactly been delivering quality Trek lately, so fresh blood for a movie might help too.




See, and I really liked V.  It was very TOS, sure.  It had some very cool Roddenberry-type social messages that a lot of people would be uncomfortable with, and I'm cool with that, too.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Mar 15, 2005)

Just a little note...posting a link to the talked about file shouldn't be a problem at all, as its fan made and no different than a bunch of the other crazy things we see here. Its not like posting a full Star Trek movie.

Of course, filesharing programs is a different matter altogether...


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## Ghostwind (Mar 16, 2005)

Here are the file links:

Space Battle: http://dragonwing.net/review/SF_Battle.zip

Bring Back Kirk: http://dragonwing.net/review/BBK35Lavi.zip


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## Orius (Mar 20, 2005)

Dinkeldog said:
			
		

> See, and I really liked V.  It was very TOS, sure.  It had some very cool Roddenberry-type social messages that a lot of people would be uncomfortable with, and I'm cool with that, too.




Of all the lame odds, I actually like V.  It's a silly film, and it's pretty good for a laugh.  I don't  hate the movie, but it's nowhere near on the level of say, II, VI, or First Contact.  OTOH, Generations killed Kirk and destroyed the Enterprise, while Insurrection was just boring, dull, and forgetable.


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## Orius (Mar 20, 2005)

Ghostwind said:
			
		

> Here are the file links:
> 
> Space Battle: http://dragonwing.net/review/SF_Battle.zip
> 
> Bring Back Kirk: http://dragonwing.net/review/BBK35Lavi.zip




That was so cheesy and silly.

It rocked.


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## mojo1701 (Mar 20, 2005)

Ghostwind said:
			
		

> Space Battle: http://dragonwing.net/review/SF_Battle.zip




I couldn't get that one to work. I tried downloading the codec, but it wouldn't let me.


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## Orius (Mar 21, 2005)

mojo1701 said:
			
		

> I couldn't get that one to work. I tried downloading the codec, but it wouldn't let me.




Worked for me, though .avis are a real pain when it comes to sodecs and such.

Anyway, here's a site with more of the same — pointless (but fun) crossover battles between Star Trek, Star Wars, and B5.

http://www.spacebattles.com/


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