# Free puzzle: The room of runes



## OnlineDM (Sep 1, 2011)

I built this puzzle for a 4e adventure, but since it's system-agnostic I figured I'd share it in General.

The full write-up is over on my blog, but in a nutshell the party enters this room from the left and is trying to cross it to the right. The tiles of the floor have runes on them, and it's clear that some tiles are safe to step on while others are not. The runes equate to numbers (number of lines in the rune = its number), and they hold the information needed to figure out the safe spots to stand.







What do you think? Too simple? Too opaque? There are some hints on the blog if you need them.

So far I've only run this puzzle once (the second try will be tomorrow) and the group in question didn't get it (though the one puzzle-loving player enjoyed it once I revealed the answer).


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## Corathon (Sep 1, 2011)

Too opaque.

The only solution that suggest itself is that odd numbered tiles are the safe ones.

(I used white text on white background to avoid spoiling the puzzle if I'm right.)


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## OnlineDM (Sep 1, 2011)

Thanks for the feedback. The solution you proposed isn't it, but I can see why you might guess it.

I'll repost the hints from my blog here in a set of spoiler blocks:

Hint 1: [sblock]The rune for the number 1 is carved on the east wall, above the exit.[/sblock]
Hint 2: [sblock]The rune for the number 3 is carved on the south wall.[/sblock]
Hint 3: [sblock]The rune for the number 7 is carved on the north wall.[/sblock]

By the way, it looks like one of my blog readers did get the solution, although I don't yet know if he/she needed the hints or not.


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## howandwhy99 (Sep 1, 2011)

Without knowing the results about stepping on any of the squares I don't think we can figure this out. Knowing the number of lines represent an ordinal system helps, but it still isn't immediately obvious. We could try and step only on the recurved lines or single curved lines too. Or perhaps the single line rune occurring more often means it is the safe route. Without trial and error it isn't apparent.


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## OnlineDM (Sep 1, 2011)

Stepping on a false floor tile results in falling in a pit and taking some damage. Not instant death, but it hurts.

I don't know if that helps or not.


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## howandwhy99 (Sep 1, 2011)

OnlineDM said:


> Stepping on a false floor tile results in falling in a pit and taking some damage. Not instant death, but it hurts.
> 
> I don't know if that helps or not.




I don't know why some tiles being safe and others not being so is apparent from the character perspective. The results of unsafeness might have helped, but doesn't appear to relate. Maybe low damage means pick low number lined runes? 

I mean we can't really figure this out except through trial and error. Most players will probably assume a pattern exists though and look for certain runes on tiles to be safe and others not. Which ones do however means testing some tiles by rune inscription.

But maybe I'm missing something.


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## OnlineDM (Sep 1, 2011)

Sorry, I was trying to keep the original presentation simple. 

The way the PCs know about tiles being unsafe could be handled in different ways. In this particular adventure, I tell the PCs that their training in certain skills (dungeoneering, theivery) lets them recognize this as a trap, and that some tiles will crumble if they step on them. They know that other creatures (drow, in this case) have passed through this chamber, but they can intuit that the creatures know the safe spots to stand. Further, they can intuit that the runes are a reminder to the creatures that pass through here of which spots are safe and which aren't.

I presented it a little more abstractly in the original post; perhaps that was a mistake. I wanted to keep the presentation short.

And the intention is for this to be a puzzle that could be solved without trial and error. "Given that certain tiles are safe and certain tiles are unsafe, and given that there is a safe path from the entrance to the exit, and given that the runes contain information in a systematic way to indicate to certain intelligent creatures which tiles are safe, can you figure out which tiles you can safely step on to get to the other side?" That's the presentation as I intend it (abstracting from the flavor).

And the answer may well be, "No, we can't figure that out. Let's go with trial and error." Which is fine. 

If the group I run through this puzzle doesn't like the puzzle or can't figure it out, I run it instead as a mini skill challenge (perception/dungeoneering/thievery to figure out which tiles are safe, athletics/acrobatics to jump or tiptoe among the safe tiles).


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## Patryn of Elvenshae (Sep 1, 2011)

My thought process was:


I can start by stepping on a 1 tile and then move to a 1 tile - Fibonnaci!  No, wait, 1-1-2 works, but there's no 3.
Okay, I can start on an odd-numbered tile or an even-numbered tile.  Is there a path from the left to the right that passes over only such tiles:
Even-numbered tiles: Yep - it goes 8-2-2-4-2-4-4-off.  Even-numbered's a possibility.
Odd-numbered tiles: Yep - it goes 1-1-1-3-5-5-1-off.  Odd-numbered's a possibility.
So, that doesn't really tell me anything.

Then I read the first hint, which was an odd-number.  I'll assume odd numbers are safe, then, and take that path.

How'd I do?


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## OnlineDM (Sep 1, 2011)

Patryn of Elvenshae said:


> How'd I do?




You did great at showing me how people are likely to approach this puzzle! This is a big part of what I was hoping to get by posting it here.

However, you did not find the correct solution. I understand where your logic was coming from, though, and I could totally see a party following the odd number sequence until it failed, then rescuing the PC who fell and trying again.


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## Patryn of Elvenshae (Sep 1, 2011)

In a more general sense, these are stones that crumble when the wrong person steps on them, right?  And when you fall, you take a little bit of damage (so the pit can't be that deep), and can pretty easily be rescued to try again.  So ...

1) Why aren't there any precrumbled stones?  People pass through here pretty routinely, I guess, and none of them have ever managed to put a foot wrong?  If they magically regenerate, how long does it take for that to happen, and can I use Detect Magic to find the (normal?) stones resting on the pillars, and just step on those?

2) If falling doesn't do much damage, why can't I just fall through the first hole I find, map out the supporting pillars on the bottom of the shallow pit, and work my way across that way? If need be, my party can just intentionally crumble a stone on the other side to pull me up.


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## OnlineDM (Sep 1, 2011)

Patryn of Elvenshae said:


> In a more general sense, these are stones that crumble when the wrong person steps on them, right?  And when you fall, you take a little bit of damage (so the pit can't be that deep), and can pretty easily be rescued to try again.  So ...
> 
> 1) Why aren't there any precrumbled stones?  People pass through here pretty routinely, I guess, and none of them have ever managed to put a foot wrong?  If they magically regenerate, how long does it take for that to happen, and can I use Detect Magic to find the (normal?) stones resting on the pillars, and just step on those?
> 
> 2) If falling doesn't do much damage, why can't I just fall through the first hole I find, map out the supporting pillars on the bottom of the shallow pit, and work my way across that way? If need be, my party can just intentionally crumble a stone on the other side to pull me up.




Great questions! I've thought about these, too, and have mostly hand-waved them.

For number 1, the drow who live here reset the trap by rebuilding the broken tiles when something falls through.

For number 2, I had exactly that scenario happen one of the times I ran the game, and I was okay with that. I intend for the fall to be pretty bad (enough to bloody but not outright kill a PC), and it takes time to deal with the fall and the rescue (this particular adventure is time-limited). But ultimately a party can indeed just say, "Hey Phil, just start walking. When you fall, holler at us from below to let us know where the pillars are." Then the PCs take turns fighting about who's going to be the sacrificial lamb...

Alternatively you can make the penalty something else entirely; a bolt of energy zaps you when you step in the wrong place, that sort of thing.


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## Nightson (Sep 1, 2011)

I'd probably take a hammer and start wailing on the floor to break the weak tiles.


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## DrunkonDuty (Sep 2, 2011)

> I'd probably take a hammer and start wailing on the floor to break the weak tiles.




This works for me. My last character, a monk, would jump across it. Other players I've known would mountaineer their way aroung the walls using ropes, crampons, spikes etc.

Edit: oh and I'd get the party ranger to work out which tiles have been stepped on. Or if I had a bunch of zombies in tow I'd send them walking across the floor.


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## OnlineDM (Sep 2, 2011)

Nightson said:


> I'd probably take a hammer and start wailing on the floor to break the weak tiles.




Good stuff. It's becoming clear that a lot of players approach a presented puzzle by saying, "How can we bypass the puzzle?" rather than, "Cool, a puzzle! Let's solve it." 

To which I say there are two equally valid DM responses is. The first is, "Great, you bypass the puzzle! Moving on..."

And the second is, "Ah, but here's why that won't work..."

If I really want the players to work on the puzzle, I would probably have to do something like make the effect of touching a bad tile be something like a zap of negative energy rather than falling in a pit. That lessens the connection to the original inspiration for the puzzle (one of the later scenes of Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade) but makes it less trivial to bypass.

Of course, if you're running a game where you don't mind the players bypassing the puzzle, leave it as a pit.

Anyway, my original question was more "Is this a reasonable puzzle?" rather than "How would you approach this scenario if it were presented to you in-game?"

So far, it's sounding like the puzzle just causes frustration and makes people want to bypass it. Duly noted.


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## Sammael (Sep 2, 2011)

Spoiler



The only number missing from the puzzle is 9. Also, the numbers you hinted at also add to 9. I believe the correct way to cross the room is to move from one tile to another so that the sum of two tiles is 9. I also have to surmise that both initial tiles are safe, since if they weren't players would have no way of testing this theory.

The easiest crossing sequence I can see is 1-8, 5-4, 5-4, 5-4.


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## kinem (Sep 2, 2011)

There doesn't seem to be enough information, but based on the hints, maybe 1,3 & 7 are the ones to avoid.

If you prod a tile with your 10' pole, does it break?

And if you don't have a 10' pole you aren't really playing D&D  j/k!


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## Corathon (Sep 2, 2011)

Another possibility: only prime-numbered tiles are safe. Of course, that's assuming that prime numbers start with 1, as I was taught as a boy. Nowadays, mathematicians would say that the 1st prime number is 2. 

Once again in white text on white background, highlight to see.


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## Jhaelen (Sep 2, 2011)

I think it's too obscure. I initially had the same idea as Sammael, but after looking at the configuration of tiles, I concluded that it means that if a tile is safe or not would depend on the tile you came from and that cannot be right (unless it's supposed to be a magical trap).

I then looked at your hints but the only thing that occured to me (after reading all three hints) 



Spoiler



was that it appears that every direction is assigned a number, starting with east and increasing clockwise until you get the 8 for the north-east.

Again this appears to reinforce the idea that the direction from where you enter a tile might be of importance.

Another idea would be that since the number '1' is in the direction of the exit one might be inclined to assume it's a 'good' number, consequently '3' and '7' might be 'bad' numbers. '5' might also be a 'good' number if the above idea of number = direction holds any water. Stepping only on numbers '1' and '5' doesn't get me safely across, though.



So, I've got no really compelling idea.


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## Patryn of Elvenshae (Sep 2, 2011)

OnlineDM said:


> So far, it's sounding like the puzzle just causes frustration and makes people want to bypass it. Duly noted.




I guess my approach to most puzzles like this in D&D games is heavily affected by Terry Pratchett.

In one of his books, he describes how the Machiavellian Vetinari walks down a secret passage in his palace, talking to himself about the various ways he's going to avoid each of the horribly dangerous traps he has installed in that passageway.



			
				Terry Pratchett said:
			
		

> Lord Vetinari turned away, took some papers from a desk drawer, walked to a wall, touched a certain area, and stepped quickly through the hidden door that noiselessly swung open.
> 
> Beyond was a corridor, lit by borrowed light from high windows and paved with small flagstones. He walked forward, hesitated, said, 'No, this is Tuesday,' and moved his descending foot so that it landed on a stone that in every respect appeared to be exactly the same as its fellows. [Footnote: Except that the ones around it were not good stones to tread on if it was a Tuesday.]
> 
> ...




So, yes, there might be hints - but why should we necessarily trust those hints?


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## SnowleopardVK (Sep 2, 2011)

I drew the same conclusion as Sammael after a few minutes. Couldn't think of much else for quite awhile.



Spoiler



Another idea I had was that if the PCs followed sums of tiles, first walking along tiles to add to 1, then 3, then 7 something might come of it. It doesn't get them all the way across, but if they then continue to a path that sums to 9 it works. I doubt that's correct though.



I enjoy puzzles personally, so this one was interesting to look at and try to figure out for me, but I wouldn't give it to my players. They'd get angry at me for giving them an "impossible" puzzle and would then search for a way to bypass it instead of solving it. Other groups might enjoy it, but I'd say too opaque for most.

Edit: Another idea:



Spoiler



If the number 1 is above the east door, then...
1 = East
2 = Southeast
3 = South
4 = Southwest
5 = West
6 = Northwest
7 = North
8 = Northeast
When you step on a tile, follow the pattern based on the direction key to the next and it leads you to the other side. Regardless of which tile you start on you end up on the same path, so maybe this could be it.


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## Dausuul (Sep 2, 2011)

In general, I have found it's very difficult to "sell" a puzzle like this to players. Quite understandably, folks would prefer not to gamble on being able to guess the solution, so they look for a way around it instead. If you let them find one, your work on the puzzle is wasted. If you stop them each time they look for a bypass, they become rightly annoyed at being railroaded.

Moreover, this is a puzzle of the "Guess what I'm thinking" type. (Riddles also fall into this category.) Those puzzles are extremely tough to do in a way that doesn't leave players feeling, "How the #@*!$ were we supposed to know it was _that_ solution instead of any of the five hundred other things it could have been?" You can see already that people have produced several plausible solutions in this thread. A different approach to puzzles is to create the puzzle with a clearly defined set of rules, then challenge the players to figure out how to apply those rules to solve the puzzle--"fox-goose-grain" is a simple example of this. Players will still bypass these if they can, but at least there is a sense that the solution is achievable by logic rather than telepathy.

I try to restrict the use of puzzles in general, and "guess what I'm thinking" puzzles especially, to bonuses rather than requirements. If you solve the puzzle, you get a nifty shiny thing, but if you don't solve it you're not roadblocked. You just don't get the nifty shiny thing. Ideally it should be set up so players who like puzzle-solving can crank away at it while everyone else gets on with the adventure.


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## SnowleopardVK (Sep 2, 2011)

Dausuul said:


> "How the #@$!$ were we supposed to know it was _that_ solution instead of any of the five hundred other things it could have been?"




I like to listen to the thought-process of the players. If they logically come up with a reasonable solution with no apparent flaws based on the clues I've given, then I might secretly change the solution to match theirs. If they come up with something that should logically work then they deserve to pass. I wouldn't punish them just because I didn't realize my clues in any given puzzle could point to a different potential solution that also made sense.

You make a good point though.


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## Dausuul (Sep 2, 2011)

SnowleopardVK said:


> I like to listen to the thought-process of the players. If they logically come up with a reasonable solution with no apparent flaws based on the clues I've given, then I might secretly change the solution to match theirs. If they come up with something that should logically work then they deserve to pass. I wouldn't punish them just because I didn't realize my clues in any given puzzle could point to a different potential solution that also made sense.




That doesn't necessarily solve the problem. _Even if they hit on the right solution_, the players may come out of it feeling like all they did was throw the dice and get lucky.

This is especially likely when the process involved several players throwing out different ideas, and the party coming to a grudging consensus on one of them as the most likely answer. At that point, you can't even fudge your way out. If you make Player A's solution into "the" correct one, that just means Player B (who advocated a different solution) is sitting there thinking, "How the #@$!$ was I supposed to know it was that and not mine?" And if you make Player B's solution correct, Player A is in the same spot.

I'm not saying one should never have riddles or "spot the pattern" puzzles. But I have found it's really tough to make them work well. IMO, the fact that a puzzle _is_ "fudgeable" means it's badly designed. A well-crafted puzzle of this type should have a solution such that when you see it, you can tell at once it's correct and it can't possibly be anything else.


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## SnowleopardVK (Sep 2, 2011)

Dausuul said:


> That doesn't necessarily solve the problem. _Even if they hit on the right solution_, the players may come out of it feeling like all they did was throw the dice and get lucky.




I don't change it to give them success if they just guess and happen to hit an alternate answer that might also work. I have to hear a logical thought process that I think actually makes sense (and could work). And if that thought process really could work and in the end they end up solving the riddle with it, how are they to know that they didn't cleverly work out the solution I had in mind all along?

What's important is that they manage to work out a good solution, not that it's the one I was necessarily thinking of. But I don't award random guesswork.


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## OnlineDM (Sep 2, 2011)

Thanks for the continued feedback, everybody. I hadn't realized this would end up being a discussion of puzzles in general!

Just to be clear, when I run this particular puzzle in my adventure, it's optional. If the PCs prefer to use skills to get through the challenge, they may do so. So, there's no getting stuck because you can't guess what the DM is thinking.

I'll admit that I thought this puzzle did fall into the category of "once you strike upon the solution, you know it's right." Clearly, I was wrong about that. Some folks here have struck upon "incorrect" solutions and felt confident; one person struck upon the "correct" solution and wasn't sure.

So, it's not a great puzzle. I'm okay with that.


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## BriarMonkey (Sep 2, 2011)

I'd have to go with the good old fashioned 10' pole.  Ideally iron shod.  [grin]

I do think that whenever a puzzle is introduced into an environment, you have to be willing to be flexible.  The players will think differently than their characters would think like (I know I don't think like a 19 Int Mage), and all of them will probably think differently than the GM.

And it is in that thought process that we see some of the disparities of the system - meaning that regardless of what a player does, the character has stats that can radically outshine the player.  All of us typing here can come up with solutions and ideas, but would a character with a 17 Int come up with the solution much easier?  How about a 19 Int, or a 22 Int?  A player is more likely to grumble if he can't figure it out and his high Int'ed character wasn't given a chance, or allowed to affect the resolution.

  Yeah, I don't use puzzles much.  But when I do, I try to keep in mind the fact that the character may have a better shot at solving it than the player.


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## Mishihari Lord (Sep 3, 2011)

After looking at the hints, my first thought was that each number represented a direction.  The first two options are 1 and 8.  I don't see an eight so I step on the 1 and then go right.  That puts me on an 8.  And ... from their it breaks down.

The next thing I'd probably do, assuming I have to solve the puzzle, is to try to gather more information by having someone step on some tiles and see what happens.


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## Flatus Maximus (Sep 3, 2011)

Mishihari Lord said:


> After looking at the hints, my first thought was that each number represented a direction.  The first two options are 1 and 8.  I don't see an eight so I step on the 1 and then go right.  That puts me on an 8.  And ... from their it breaks down.




But it doesn't! If 1 = E, then 8 = NE...


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