# Ecology of the Hengeyokai (+ New Race Option!)



## ourchair (Oct 19, 2011)

Dungeons & Dragons Roleplaying Game Official Home Page - Article (Ecology of the Hengeyokai)

Play as a furry? YEEEEAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH!!


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## captainspud (Oct 19, 2011)

I think the Changeling just lost its title as the most mechanically boring player race.


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## Wednesday Boy (Oct 19, 2011)

Overall I thought they were pretty boring. I wish their hybrid form had some mechanics associated with them to make them unique instead of being a different skin. Maybe they'll release a Utility power for each like the Dead Rat Deserter's Hybrid Bite power. If not, that's gives me another idea for a Dragon article proposal...

(Edit:  [MENTION=94481]captainspud[/MENTION], I think Changeling Trick is pretty boring but the open-ended Changeling Disguise?  That's pure creative gold to me!)


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## JPL (Oct 19, 2011)

Seems like there should be access to the druid Beast Form powers and feats, doesn't it?


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## Klaus (Oct 19, 2011)

JPL said:


> Seems like there should be access to the druid Beast Form powers and feats, doesn't it?



Don't forget: this is a playtest article. Feel free to forward your thoughts and requests to WotC, so the hengeyokai can benefit from them!


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## captainspud (Oct 19, 2011)

Wednesday Boy said:


> (Edit:   @captainspud , I think Changeling Trick is pretty boring but the open-ended Changeling Disguise?  That's pure creative gold to me!)



Again, though-- _mechanically_ boring. Both the Changeling and the Werecarp have absolutely wonderful flavor and potential for awesome roleplay, but on a purely CharOp level, they're both utterly devoid of useful mechanics. There is _absolutely no reason_ for a mechanically-minded player to _ever_ play this new race. Its abilities do absolutely _nothing_ in a fight.


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## Siberys (Oct 19, 2011)

Just collecting my thoughts;

The reflex bonus is boring and not mechanically necessary.
Nature's Mask is confusing; do you only get the benefits in animal form? What about hybrid?
There needs to be some other racial trait - something mechanical. Preferably another racial power.

EDIT: So, it says stats don't change in Hybrid form. gotcha. This further increases the need for a racial encounter power. :/


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## Drammattex (Oct 19, 2011)

I enjoyed the article, thought Tim did a nice job with it.


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## Wednesday Boy (Oct 19, 2011)

Klaus said:


> Don't forget: this is a playtest article. Feel free to forward your thoughts and requests to WotC, so the hengeyokai can benefit from them!




Very good point!



captainspud said:


> Again, though-- _mechanically_ boring. Both the Changeling and the Werecarp have absolutely wonderful flavor and potential for awesome roleplay, but on a purely CharOp level, they're both utterly devoid of useful mechanics.




I think we have different ideas of what _mechanically_ means but I see what you're saying.


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## Kobold Avenger (Oct 19, 2011)

I can't see how Changeling is boring, even though there aren't mechanics for when you assume the form of people enemies know, it can be very powerful in the right hands.

As for the Hengeyokai the animal form ability is useful for positioning that takes more than a round to do.  I don't know where there would be cases where that happens too often, but it could put them in a better position at the start of a fight.  A Ranger or Seeker or any other ranged type Hengeyokai could go easily go to a high, hard to reach place, and attack without much in the way of retaliation from some enemies.


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## Gargoyle (Oct 19, 2011)

captainspud said:


> Again, though-- _mechanically_ boring. Both the Changeling and the Werecarp have absolutely wonderful flavor and potential for awesome roleplay, but on a purely CharOp level, they're both utterly devoid of useful mechanics. There is _absolutely no reason_ for a mechanically-minded player to _ever_ play this new race. Its abilities do absolutely _nothing_ in a fight.




Agreed.  But in a role-playing game, I don't think every race needs to have a combat mechanic.  Of course whether you play 4e primarily as an RPG or as a skirmish game is a dead horse of a different color.


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## technoextreme (Oct 19, 2011)

captainspud said:


> I think the Changeling just lost its title as the most mechanically boring player race.



Actually, it probably is the most overpowered racial ability I have seen.


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## mneme (Oct 19, 2011)

technoextreme said:


> Actually, it probably is the most overpowered racial ability I have seen.




Only if you gain a fly speed!

I do think the race needs sub-racial encounter powers.  Give out encounter powers and you can distinguish the ribald raccoon dog (aka Tanuki) from the wise fox and the deft crane, and you can give the non-flying races more powerful encounter powers, whereas the flying races can get, say, limited flying, so it doesn't impact their capabilities that much, but gives them a movement option that doesn't force them to change forms first.

Note, btw, the sound of breakage if the animal races can use Druid powers in beast form!  Please, no Fly 6 first level casting druids!  Actually, I'd give the -in between- form the Beast Form keyword, but not the animal form; that way druid Hengyoki are quite strong in their true forms, but can't gain the advantages of a special movement mode -and- still cast.


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## JPL (Oct 19, 2011)

Klaus said:


> Don't forget: this is a playtest article. Feel free to forward your thoughts and requests to WotC, so the hengeyokai can benefit from them!




Done. 

I like having the Tiny beast form for "flight," the hybrid for "fight," and the human form as camouflage.


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## JPL (Oct 19, 2011)

mneme said:


> Note, btw, the sound of breakage if the animal races can use Druid powers in beast form!  Please, no Fly 6 first level casting druids!  Actually, I'd give the -in between- form the Beast Form keyword, but not the animal form; that way druid Hengyoki are quite strong in their true forms, but can't gain the advantages of a special movement mode -and- still cast.




Right . . . didn't say that in my first post, but I thought it.


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## Nemesis Destiny (Oct 19, 2011)

IMHO, this is more option bloat. The game already covers shapeshifting humanoids; they're called Shifters. No reason that this couldn't have been done as alternate race features for Shifters similar to what they put in Neverwinter for Dwarves and Elves.

No offense to the author, of course. I'd love to be published in Dragon someday myself, but I just don't think this niche race adds anything to the game besides bloat.


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## herrozerro (Oct 19, 2011)

Nemesis Destiny said:


> IMHO, this is more option bloat. The game already covers shapeshifting humanoids; they're called Shifters. No reason that this couldn't have been done as alternate race features for Shifters similar to what they put in Neverwinter for Dwarves and Elves.
> 
> No offense to the author, of course. I'd love to be published in Dragon someday myself, but I just don't think this niche race adds anything to the game besides bloat.




I think this is a poor way to look at things.  it could be argued then that we dont need any more weapon using classes because the fighter exists.  Or a lot of elements just because they share a small facet design space with them.


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## Klaus (Oct 19, 2011)

JPL said:


> Done.
> 
> I like having the Tiny beast form for "flight," the hybrid for "fight," and the human form as camouflage.



This is a good way to put it. And I think the hybrid form could gain its own benefit, like a bonus to damage for dogs and other creatures with a bite attack, a bonus to defenses for creatures with tough hides and an Evasion-type benefit for creatures with increased reflexes (like cats and rabbits).

One of the NPCs in the Kara-Tur boxed set was a hengeyokai (rabbit) bushi that had almost kensai-level abilities because he had rabbit-like quickness.  I'd like to see that reflected in the stats.

Just throwing some ideas around.


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## Nemesis Destiny (Oct 19, 2011)

herrozerro said:


> I think this is a poor way to look at things.  it could be argued then that we dont need any more weapon using classes because the fighter exists.  Or a lot of elements just because they share a small facet design space with them.



I'd hardly call the overlap here "sharing a small facet of design space."

What makes this new race such a special snowflake that it had to have its own writeup? Its Asian flavour? The fact that they're animals that turn humanoid? It's all fluff.

And there's nothing wrong with fluff. Heck, I don't even mind the addition of the mechanics, to a point. But (IMHO) they really didn't need to be their own race.

Similarly, no, we don't need any more weapon-using classes. Not just because the fighter exists, but because the Fighter exists, the Rogue exists, the Ranger exists, the Paladin exists, the Swordmage exists, the Cleric exists, the Runepriest exists, etc, etc, etc. In other words, it's been *done*. 

As it stands now, the game is largely capable of covering any concept out there. At most, _at very most_, all that is required is expanding existing material by adding to it, adding things that share the resources already out there, not by making more separate pools of stuff that will all require individual support that we all know isn't coming.

It just makes sense.


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## herrozerro (Oct 19, 2011)

speaking about your point of comparing this new race to the shifters, im a little confused.  The shifters dont really seem to have much mechanical effects to represent actually shape shifting.  An encounter that you can activate when you get bloodied doesnt really compare to an actual shape shifting power.

Speaking with animals, hybrid forms, animals forms. this race shares much more with the druid mechanics and flavor than shifters.


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## Nemesis Destiny (Oct 19, 2011)

herrozerro said:


> speaking about your point of comparing this new race to the shifters, im a little confused.  The shifters dont really seem to have much mechanical effects to represent actually shape shifting.  An encounter that you can activate when you get bloodied doesnt really compare to an actual shape shifting power.
> 
> Speaking with animals, hybrid forms, animals forms. this race shares much more with the druid than shifters.



That's why I said "alternate race features" - instead of powering up when bloodied, these ones would have the racial at-will listed in the article.

In fact, they would get most of what is already in the article, maybe. But, and here is the important kicker - they could benefit from all the material that already exists for shifters, and hence won't completely suck and be left twisting in the breeze as far as support goes.

And therefore will also not contribute to further option bloat.

But hey, it's a big game. Whatever you prefer.


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## herrozerro (Oct 19, 2011)

Nemesis Destiny said:


> That's why I said "alternate race features" - instead of powering up when bloodied, these ones would have the racial at-will listed in the article.
> 
> In fact, they would get most of what is already in the article, maybe. But, and here is the important kicker - they could benefit from all the material that already exists for shifters, and hence won't completely suck and be left twisting in the breeze as far as support goes.
> 
> ...




and my point still stands, I believe that's a poor way to look at the game.  It would seem that you are proposing that the game should be reduced to the lowest common denominator.  

Weapon classes should be "Weapon guy" Magic uses should be "Mage guy".  Races could be lumped into "Tall Guy" and "Short guy".

It would seem that anything beyond that would be option bloat correct?

Personally I like the Many subsets route.  It's not masked "Option Bloat"


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## Nemesis Destiny (Oct 19, 2011)

herrozerro said:


> and my point still stands, I believe that's a poor way to look at the game.  It would seem that you are proposing that the game should be reduced to the lowest common denominator.
> 
> Weapon classes should be "Weapon guy" Magic uses should be "Mage guy".  Races could be lumped into "Tall Guy" and "Short guy".
> 
> ...



No, you're oversimplifying what I'm saying and/or misunderstanding it.

What I was suggesting would not deprive anyone of options, it would just organize them better. The game would be left with less dead-ends, but just as many possibilities.

Anyway, I'm not here to tell you how to enjoy the game; like I said, whatever you prefer.

I've said my bit, so I'll leave it at that.


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## JPL (Oct 19, 2011)

This also would work as a variant shifter with the Tiny form as a new racial ability option, sure.  The advantage is that you get access to the existing feats and such for shifters.  The real question is whether it's a single subrace or a slew of them.  

This article is a pretty faithful update of the original Oriental Adventures race . . . if you treat them as shifters, and allow yourself some leeway for reimagining, perhaps you end up dropping a few of these animal form options, and maybe go for more of a kung fu five-animals vibe:

Tiger = Longtooth (that's easy)
Crane = . . . . I got nothing.
Leopard = Swiftrun
Snake = Sharptooth
Dragon = Ironscale 

3rd Edition had some other shifter subraces already ---- Cliffwalk, Beasthide, Longstride, Wildhunt, Dreamsight, Gorebrute --- which could be interesting additions to 4th Edition.

Interesting to think about just porting some of these existing races to Kara-Tur and thinking about cultural differences and minor "subrace" tweaks.  I mean, Kara-Tur dragonborn?  That's gotta be cool.  Kara-Tur devas?  Super cool.


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## Nemesis Destiny (Oct 19, 2011)

JPL said:


> This also would work as a variant shifter with the Tiny form as a new racial ability option, sure.  The advantage is that you get access to the existing feats and such for shifters.  The real question is whether it's a single subrace or a slew of them.
> 
> This article is a pretty faithful update of the original Oriental Adventures race . . . if you treat them as shifters, and allow yourself some leeway for reimagining, perhaps you end up dropping a few of these animal form options, and maybe go for more of a kung fu five-animals vibe.
> 
> ...



I'd have XP'd you for this, but I must spread it around.

Good to know I'm not just typing gibberish and that someone 'gets' what I'm saying.


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## mneme (Oct 19, 2011)

ND: I get what you're saying, but I don't agree in this case.  Shifter is the "half were" race, and is tied to lycanthropy, bloodlust, the moon, therianthropic regeneration, being a predator, and so on.  Hengyokai is the "faerie animal that turns human" race, and is tied to the fey, to specific traits based on animal, spirit stuff, trickster stuff, and so on.

Frankly, aside from the animal part, they just don't have much in common.  I wouldn't want to use a shifter template for the wolf from Ivan and the Firebird; that's a magical shapeshifting animal.  Nor would I want to use a magical animal race for someone with loup-garou blood in them.  The myths are simply very different.

Mechanically, I'm just not seeing any overlap; any reason to combine the races, I mean, there are 36 shifter feats.  8 of them are longtooth, 9 of them are razorclaw, 11 are both.  So lets look at the remaining ones:

Sturdy Shifter: would be broken with Hengayokai. (gain 5/10/20 temps whenever you use your racial power).
Crow's Flight: ignore difficult terrain when you run, +2 to athletics and acrobatics.  Ok, this one would likely be ok.
Blood Devourer Shifting: All about therianthropy and bloodlust.  No.
Draw out the beast: Treat yourself as bloodied. Intended to synergize with the shifter bloodlust abilities.
Shifter's Agility: +5 to agility/acrobatics when you use your racial power.  Actually, probably ok, though strong for a skill feat.
Wild Senses: +3 to initiative, bonuses to track.  Probably ok, though not really appropriate for all Hengayoki.
Holy Savagery: All about being bloodied.  No.
Urban Predator: More predator stuff, but not awful.

So, they'd gain what?  4 feats for making them shifters?  Plus access to 4 more feats that aren't appropriate, one of which is broken?

Fundamentally, your principle isn't bad, but you're wrong here.  The two races have no conceptual overlap.

Henkyokai is about being part animal. (and about being fey, something completely uncovered here).

Shifter is about being part -monster-.


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## Shroomy (Oct 19, 2011)

Hey, I'm the author of this article, so if you have any questions about it, feel free to ask.  Thanks!


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## AbdulAlhazred (Oct 19, 2011)

Honestly, I can see what N.D. is saying. I think mneme is right though, it just isn't quite the same thing. 

Going deeper, shape shifting in general is a really common mythological theme and you could dig up 100 different shape shifter myths, several more of which could easily have mechanics as races, curses, classes, or whatever.

It seems more like a generalized shape shifting set of mechanics would be the way to address the whole thing. Within that box you could create specific rules for most of these types of things. That's really a 'not in 4e' discussion though. 

As it stands, Hengeyokai seem like they warrant a race. Yeah, there's some overhead for each new race, but you want something to be GOOD, not just hacked in halfway.


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## Neverfate (Oct 20, 2011)

Shroomy said:


> Hey, I'm the author of this article, so if you have any questions about it, feel free to ask.  Thanks!




Awesome article and racial write up. I really like the various forms a player can take. Out of curiosity how did you make the final decisions on what forms to include or exclude (if any)?


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## Shroomy (Oct 20, 2011)

Neverfate said:


> Awesome article and racial write up. I really like the various forms a player can take. Out of curiosity how did you make the final decisions on what forms to include or exclude (if any)?




I did get to decide which ones to include; it's basically the 3e list minus the weasel.  I ultimately settled on 12 subraces, but I can't remember why I excluded the weasel.


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## Obryn (Oct 20, 2011)

I love it.  I think it's a great new flavorful race.

But really, is there any reason NOT to choose a Sparrow as your alternate form?   I mean, Fly at-will - even if you can't attack during it - is a huge out of combat benefit.  I love it.

-O


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## frankthedm (Oct 20, 2011)

ourchair said:


> Play as a furry?



Yes, it certainly looks like that was the target demographic with this article.



>


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## ourchair (Oct 20, 2011)

frankthedm said:


> Yes, it certainly looks like that was the target demographic with this article.



You say that like it is a bad thing.


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## Shroomy (Oct 20, 2011)

While it wasn't my target audience, I did get a lot of feedback during the writing that furries would love it.


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## AbdulAlhazred (Oct 20, 2011)

It really is quite good. Honestly I'd say for people that would like to play other variations of animals, just go for it. The design really supports that because ALL you need to come up with is a movement effect for your animal. And frankly there aren't going to be very many more options before they're redundant anyway. Every bird flies, every fish swims, etc. Now, maybe someone will someday come up with feats or something for certain animal forms, but since it is all DDI material, it can just go on up there and otherwise its homebrew time. Shroomy obviously can't fit vast amounts of racial support into one article. So it seems like it was exactly the right amount to leave it all open-ended and still meaningful.


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## Klaus (Oct 20, 2011)

This article broadens the D&D target demographics by allowing character such as this hengeyokai (dog) slayer/Kensai:


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## Shroomy (Oct 20, 2011)

AbdulAlhazred said:


> It really is quite good. Honestly I'd say for people that would like to play other variations of animals, just go for it. The design really supports that because ALL you need to come up with is a movement effect for your animal. And frankly there aren't going to be very many more options before they're redundant anyway. Every bird flies, every fish swims, etc. Now, maybe someone will someday come up with feats or something for certain animal forms, but since it is all DDI material, it can just go on up there and otherwise its homebrew time. Shroomy obviously can't fit vast amounts of racial support into one article. So it seems like it was exactly the right amount to leave it all open-ended and still meaningful.




Yep, if included every subrace that appeared in previous editions we'd also have the following:  drake, weasel, panda, tiger, lynx, owl, hawk, frog, lizard, turtle, and octopus (there may be more, I'm listing these off the top of my head).


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## Kobold Avenger (Oct 20, 2011)

One of the reasons why I like there being no difference mechanically between human and hybrid forms, is because the player can choose how "furry" they want their character to be.  Someone who's definitely into it will only have their character in animal and hybrid form.  While someone who's more adverse to it, will only have their character in animal and human form.  And neither of them are going to suffer for not ever shifting in the form they excluded.


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## Shroomy (Oct 20, 2011)

Kobold Avenger said:


> One of the reasons why I like there being no difference mechanically between human and hybrid forms, is because the player can choose how "furry" they want their character to be.  Someone who's definitely into it will only have their character in animal and hybrid form.  While someone who's more adverse to it, will only have their character in animal and human form.  And neither of them are going to suffer for not ever shifting in the form they excluded.




Technically, you can no longer talk to animals in human form...


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## JPL (Oct 20, 2011)

Obryn said:


> I love it.  I think it's a great new flavorful race.
> 
> But really, is there any reason NOT to choose a Sparrow as your alternate form?   I mean, Fly at-will - even if you can't attack during it - is a huge out of combat benefit.  I love it.
> 
> -O




Goes nice with a party of pixies, too.

I might have to pitch a "Shifters of Kara-Tur" article and do that five-animals-style idea . . .


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## I'm A Banana (Oct 21, 2011)

Why'd they get the Dex bonus?

As it sits, "tough" animals aren't reflected very well -- badgers and crabs and the like don't get tougher or more tenacious or more resilient. If you wanted to go "Intelligent" (like Foxes or some birds such as the Sparrow) you also don't have support in the race. And it's not like we needed another race with a Dex bonus...

Any reason you didn't go the Human "+2 to any one" route? I mean, I guess that steps on a human's toes a bit, but it seems the best way to fit a huge diversity of archetypes into a single race. I suppose that's why humans have it in the first place. 

It's also a little odd that all the forms are Tiny, but I imagine cranes, dogs, etc. to be pretty big animals -- Small if not Medium in some cases. A little odd that my St Bernard Man can become Tiny...

It's a cool race, and the mechanics work really well for certain forms, but not so well for others...


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## Shroomy (Oct 21, 2011)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> Why'd they get the Dex bonus?
> 
> As it sits, "tough" animals aren't reflected very well -- badgers and crabs and the like don't get tougher or more tenacious or more resilient. If you wanted to go "Intelligent" (like Foxes or some birds such as the Sparrow) you also don't have support in the race. And it's not like we needed another race with a Dex bonus...
> 
> ...




While I was working on the article, two themes emerged:  hengeyokai were extremely mobile and agile creatures (in fact, the majority of the subraces had a Dexterity bonus in earlier editions), and they were tricksters.  That naturally led me to choose Dexterity as their fixed stat (and I hope I backed up that in the flavor text) and to choose a roster of favored classes that focused on movement (thus the assassin, rogue, and monk; the choice of sorcerer reflects their inherently magical nature and the fact that the wu jen was their favored class in 3e).  I originally had a wider spread of stats associated with the hengeyokai, but during development it was felt that the race was becoming too complicated, so I modified the race so it had a more traditional stat set-up.  Charisma was an easy choice because it was the primary stat for sorcerers and a secondary stat for rogues and assassins (it was also the secondary stat associated with the most subraces); I also chose Wisdom for the other flex stat because it was the monk's secondary stat, it had an association with Primal power, and because it was already assigned to the second largest group of subraces.  The three stats also have associations with skills that I personally associated with hengeyokai:  Acrobatics, Bluff, Intimidate, Nature, Perception, Stealth, and Thievery.

As for their size, originally several hengeyokai subraces changed into Small forms, but most of them were Tiny.  Since their animal form did not have much direct combat applications, when concerns were raised about the race's complexity, I decided to consolidate all of them into one size.  Luckily, making them all Tiny increases their mobility (since they can move easier through smaller spaces or even through enemy squares) and ability to hide more effectively.  In my mind, some of the forms like the crane, dog, and raccoon dog (which if I remember correctly were the Small ones) are simply on the larger end of the Tiny scale.


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## Unwise (Oct 21, 2011)

I generally hate anthro characters, but I love this article as it finally gives me rules for playing Monkey, Pigsy and Sandy.

Our next campaign is going to be "Journey to the West" better known as "Monkey!" for the children of the 80s that remember the glory days of monkey magic.


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## I'm A Banana (Oct 21, 2011)

Shroomy said:
			
		

> That naturally led me to choose Dexterity as their fixed stat (and I hope I backed up that in the flavor text) and to choose a roster of favored classes that focused on movement (thus the assassin, rogue, and monk; the choice of sorcerer reflects their inherently magical nature and the fact that the wu jen was their favored class in 3e)




Mobility does seem a big theme! But warriors and guardians and protectors are in there flavor-wise (Badger Chanshi!) that aren't really rewarded mechanically (Badger Fighters or Crab Wardens or Dog Battleminds or Crane Swordmages aren't great choices mechanically, but flavor-wise they make a lot of sense!). 

I guess that's one of the tough balancing acts of making any very diverse race. Boil it down too much and you loose some of the interesting complexity. Don't boil it down enough and you keep some of the confusion. I guess that's why I look at Humans (and, to a lesser extent, Genasi) as great examples of very diverse races done quite well. 

FWIW, I think 95% of anyone who plays a hengeyokai will be quite satisfied.  The corner cases of the more defensive oriented / "tough" archetype characters not being fully mechanically ideal is a pretty minor point. 

Besides, some of my bias against "everyone loves strikers" probably came in when I saw that their favored classes were ALL strikers.  "Great, yet another awesome race for rogues. No love for Defenders." That, and the fact that a quick, charismatic Badger or Crab or Carp is...a little hard to wrap my brain around...are the main reasons I bring it up. 

Thanks for the hard work!


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## Shroomy (Oct 21, 2011)

Luckily, Intimidate is a Charisma-based skill. 

Make sure to send in your feedback to the playtest email!


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## Nemesis Destiny (Oct 21, 2011)

Unwise said:


> I generally hate anthro characters, but *snip*



I have to admit, this is where a lot of my issue with this comes from. No offense, Shroomy, or to those of you out there that are *ahem* partial to it, but yeah... anthros, meet wood chipper.

I didn't like Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved for this reason, I almost didn't like 4e for the same. I have since gotten over it by banning Dragonborn and similar from my games. You can still use their stats if you like, but not the fluff.

But it's a big wide world of gaming out there, so if that's your thing, more power to ya!


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## Dire Bare (Oct 23, 2011)

Nemesis Destiny said:


> IMHO, this is more option bloat. The game already covers shapeshifting humanoids; they're called Shifters. No reason that this couldn't have been done as alternate race features for Shifters similar to what they put in Neverwinter for Dwarves and Elves.
> 
> No offense to the author, of course. I'd love to be published in Dragon someday myself, but I just don't think this niche race adds anything to the game besides bloat.




Finally got to the end of the "debate", and I kinda-sorta agree with you.  I wouldn't use the term "option bloat", but I've always felt the anthropomorphic animal races needed to be cleaned up.  Just like the 4e designers felt there were too many "dragon-men" and "half-dragon" concepts floating around and so wrapped them up into the new dragonborn race, I'd like to see the same thing happen with animal-head-people!

Shifters, Hengeyokai, Cat-folk (Rakasta & Tabaxi) and the other animal peoples like the Lupin, Tortle, etc, etc.  I'd love to see one race concept that brought all of that together.  Maybe for 5e, huh?

However, as it stands now, I do think that the Hengeyokai concept from earlier editions doesn't mesh well enough with the current Shifter race to simply make the "new" Hengeyokai types of Shifters.  I wouldn't have minded seeing a little 4e style re-conception, however!


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## Dire Bare (Oct 23, 2011)

Shroomy said:


> Yep, if included every subrace that appeared in previous editions we'd also have the following:  drake, weasel, panda, tiger, lynx, owl, hawk, frog, lizard, turtle, and octopus (there may be more, I'm listing these off the top of my head).




Panda-men!  I knew something was missing from the article!!!  Ski-doosh!

Well, time to get busy on the followup article so we can have the complete list!  

Good work on this one, Shroomy!


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## Droogie128 (Oct 23, 2011)

AbdulAlhazred said:


> Every bird flies


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## Klaus (Oct 23, 2011)

Dire Bare said:


> Finally got to the end of the "debate", and I kinda-sorta agree with you.  I wouldn't use the term "option bloat", but I've always felt the anthropomorphic animal races needed to be cleaned up.  Just like the 4e designers felt there were too many "dragon-men" and "half-dragon" concepts floating around and so wrapped them up into the new dragonborn race, I'd like to see the same thing happen with animal-head-people!
> 
> Shifters, Hengeyokai, Cat-folk (Rakasta & Tabaxi) and the other animal peoples like the Lupin, Tortle, etc, etc.  I'd love to see one race concept that brought all of that together.  Maybe for 5e, huh?
> 
> However, as it stands now, I do think that the Hengeyokai concept from earlier editions doesn't mesh well enough with the current Shifter race to simply make the "new" Hengeyokai types of Shifters.  I wouldn't have minded seeing a little 4e style re-conception, however!



You might think these concepts are related, because they all add "animal" to a humanoid, but they "how" they do it is actually very different:

- Shifter: humanoids with a "rage" type effect when bloodied.
- Hengeyokai: shapechanging into animal shapes.
- Rakasta, Lupin, etc: humanoids with constant animal characteristics.

The third group there is already mimicked by most races we have. Rakasta, catfolk and tabaxi can be done with elves. Lupins can be done with gnolls. Bearfolk (or Pandaren, for the WoW-inclined) can be done with goliaths or even minotaurs (refluff gore with bear claws). Ratfolk can be done with halflings.


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## I'm A Banana (Oct 23, 2011)

> The third group there is already mimicked by most races we have. Rakasta, catfolk and tabaxi can be done with elves. Lupins can be done with gnolls. Bearfolk (or Pandaren, for the WoW-inclined) can be done with goliaths or even minotaurs (refluff gore with bear claws). Ratfolk can be done with halflings.




Yeah, but that's a little reductionist. By that logic, we only ever need Five different options. Human-Dwarf-Elf-Halfling-Halforc-DONE. 

There's plenty of room for options that aren't reskinned other races, though I do think it's important to make them very distinct, if it risks hitting close to another race (like halflings and gnomes are pretty distinct in my mind, with one being the stout, doughty, suburban crusader of childlike innocence, and the other being the sneaky, brilliant, badger-using illusionist of diabolical trickery).


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## cignus_pfaccari (Oct 23, 2011)

Droogie128 said:


>




Ostriches can too fly!

They just need pilots' licenses.


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## cignus_pfaccari (Oct 23, 2011)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> Yeah, but that's a little reductionist. By that logic, we only ever need Five different options. Human-Dwarf-Elf-Halfling-Halforc-DONE.




Shoot.  All of those are bipedal anthropoids, so the other four go into the trash can.

Brad (who doesn't see the point in "too many races")


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## Incenjucar (Oct 23, 2011)

To make a full-on anthro race, you could easily just give them a gnoll-like natural weapon, and a minor action encounter power to use it for an attack.


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## Klaus (Oct 23, 2011)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> Yeah, but that's a little reductionist. By that logic, we only ever need Five different options. Human-Dwarf-Elf-Halfling-Halforc-DONE.
> 
> There's plenty of room for options that aren't reskinned other races, though I do think it's important to make them very distinct, if it risks hitting close to another race (like halflings and gnomes are pretty distinct in my mind, with one being the stout, doughty, suburban crusader of childlike innocence, and the other being the sneaky, brilliant, badger-using illusionist of diabolical trickery).



Oh, I'm not advocating for removal of anthro races (I'm a rakasta fan, myself). Just pointing that being "part animal" isn't enough to make shifters, hengeyokai and rakasta/lupin/gnoll/minotaur overlap.

But you *do* need a strong hook beyong "part animal". And it helps if they aren't too much like their animal counterparts. For instance, I can't stand it when rakasta are depicted as being affected by catnip.


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## GMforPowergamers (Oct 23, 2011)

I wonder if now that we have this at will animal/hybrid form if shifter could be made more intresting as well.


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