# Who Will Get the Axe?



## Falstaff (Aug 20, 2008)

Looks like Wizards is preparing to make some changes that might result in lost jobs:

*http://ww2.wizards.com/Company/Press/?doc=20080820*


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## TerraDave (Aug 20, 2008)

"specifically innovation for our Magic and Dungeons & Dragons fans"

This is a reference to their e-strategy, but should be a good sign for us. Implies cuts comming from other brands. 

And it seems early for D&D cutbacks. I would expect those in about 2 years.


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## Filcher (Aug 20, 2008)

"Wizards Announces New Organizational Alignment"

Layoffs? I took this as a move to Chaotic Good (see The Rouse's customer resource thread under Gen Con experiences).


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## Montague68 (Aug 20, 2008)

Doesn't sound good for Star Wars.


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## Scribble (Aug 20, 2008)

Whomever it is, I offer them my sincerist condolences, and hope they find new employment quickly and without hassle.


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## Darrin Drader (Aug 20, 2008)

This sounds eerily like what went down in 2000, except that back then there was no warning. 

But this is the reason I've lost my love for WotC. Too many plans not followed through and too many shattered dreams. The company is beholden to the bean counters and they are beholden to the shareholders by the very nature of their positions. That, above all, trumps the interest of the game and its players. Several years ago Monte Cook suggested that the ideal company to run D&D would be a company that specializes in D&D. It would be on the smaller side and would focus on hiring and retaining the most creative talent in the industry.  I feel that he was right, and that's what I see happening with companies like Paizo, Fantasy Flight Games, Mongoose Publishing, and Steve Jackson Games.


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## Inferno! (Aug 20, 2008)

Gearjammer said:


> Doesn't sound good for Star Wars.




*I hope not,* based upon the GenCon seminar they have a lot of interesting books in the pipeline - and the core book won an ENNIE!  However, if the worst were to happen to Star Wars (and by extension Rodney) maybe we could begin getting Star Wars goodness from Rodney on SWRPGNetwork again.


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## Shemeska (Aug 20, 2008)

*DDI schadenfreude held in check till we see just what is going to get the axe*


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## wedgeski (Aug 20, 2008)

Darrin Drader said:


> But this is the reason I've lost my love for WotC. Too many plans not followed through and too many shattered dreams.



Really? WotC have shattered your dreams? Crikey. I also note with interest you avoided 'too many broken promises' in favour of 'Too many plans not followed through'. 



> Several years ago Monte Cook suggested that the ideal company to run D&D would be a company that specializes in D&D. It would be on the smaller side and would focus on hiring and retaining the most creative talent in the industry.  I feel that he was right, and that's what I see happening with companies like Paizo, Fantasy Flight Games, Mongoose Publishing, and Steve Jackson Games.



I so do not want a small, vulnerable company to take control of D&D. I want a large, entrenched player in the market, with plenty of resources and a ton of marketing bulk to throw behind the game. Whatever their mis-steps, I think Wizards are the right people to be holding the reins, just at the moment.


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## Drkfathr1 (Aug 20, 2008)

Bet Heroscape goes. You know Wizards was dying to get rid of their mini's competition, especially when Heroscape proved you COULD sell packs of non-random miniatures.


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## DaveMage (Aug 20, 2008)

Filcher said:


> "Wizards Announces New Organizational Alignment"
> 
> Layoffs? I took this as a move to Chaotic Good (see The Rouse's customer resource thread under Gen Con experiences).





Yeah, I'm thinking they could do without those kind of service reps.


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## Darrin Drader (Aug 20, 2008)

wedgeski said:


> Really? WotC have shattered your dreams? Crikey. I also note with interest you avoided 'too many broken promises' in favour of 'Too many plans not followed through'.




Mine personally? No. I chose to walk away and its days like today that I'm thankful I did. There are other ways to achieve the dream besides working for a corporation.



> I so do not want a small, vulnerable company to take control of D&D. I want a large, entrenched player in the market, with plenty of resources and a ton of marketing bulk to throw behind the game. Whatever their mis-steps, I think Wizards are the right people to be holding the reins, just at the moment.



I guess we'll see what that means for the brand five years from now.



DaveMage said:


> Yeah, I'm thinking they could do without those kind of service reps.




Best guess is that those service reps were people brought in especially for the con. The type of behavior exhibited at Gen Con doesn't reflect any WotC custserv behavior that I've ever seen.


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## AllisterH (Aug 20, 2008)

Drkfathr1 said:


> Bet Heroscape goes. You know Wizards was dying to get rid of their mini's competition, especially when Heroscape proved you COULD sell packs of non-random miniatures.




Seriously.

Does NOBODY play or know about limited? I keep seeing comments about randomized miniatures and I wonder if any of these people have ever heard about Limited?


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## Drkfathr1 (Aug 21, 2008)

AllisterH said:


> Seriously.
> 
> Does NOBODY play or know about limited? I keep seeing comments about randomized miniatures and I wonder if any of these people have ever heard about Limited?




Nope. Never heard of it!


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## Aus_Snow (Aug 21, 2008)

Wow, morbid ghoulish much?

(edited; thanks to racoffin - indeed, that was the word.)


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## Jasperak (Aug 21, 2008)

AllisterH said:


> Seriously.
> 
> Does NOBODY play or know about limited? I keep seeing comments about randomized miniatures and I wonder if any of these people have ever heard about Limited?




You mean I don't have to buy a case of those things and hope I get what I want?


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## AllisterH (Aug 21, 2008)

Drkfathr1 said:


> Nope. Never heard of it!




*BLINKS*

The awesomeness of Limited 

Seriously, I recommend playing Limited over Constructed as the former is a much more skill intensive format.


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## drothgery (Aug 21, 2008)

Gearjammer said:


> Doesn't sound good for Star Wars.




It's impossible to cut Star Wars (at least on the RPG side). There's only Rodney there.


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## racoffin (Aug 21, 2008)

Aus_Snow said:


> Wow, morbid much?
> 
> Sorry if that's threadcrapping or something. If it is, delete this or whatever. Titling a thread this way and speculating in kind just quite honestly strikes me as being. . .
> 
> No, never mind. Whatever.




I think the word you are looking for is _ghoulish_. And I agree.


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## Jasperak (Aug 21, 2008)

AllisterH said:


> *BLINKS*
> 
> The awesomeness of Limited
> 
> Seriously, I recommend playing Limited over Constructed as the former is a much more skill intensive format.




Um, what does that have to do with buying the miniatures you want instead of random boosters?


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## The_Universe (Aug 21, 2008)

*WotC Organizational Alignment?*

What the heck does this mean?



			
				Wizards Website said:
			
		

> *Organizational Announcement*
> 
> Wizards Announces New Organizational Alignment
> 
> ...


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## Duncan Haldane (Aug 21, 2008)

The_Universe said:


> What the heck does this mean?




I figure that in PHB II there will be a new character alignment available, Organisational.

[attempted humour]
It's especially useful for Leaders who like all the bad guys lined up in order to their own system.  So, if you want to play a character with OCD, now you have the alignment to match!
[/attempted humour]

Seriously all it means is they are reorganising the branches/sections/teams at WotC, and because of that some jobs are being axed, other new positions have become vacant.

The good news is that this time they aren't doing it for Christmas.

Of course, they might do it again at Christmas - nothing like making your staff look forward to their holidays!

Duncan
(whose current employments ends 31 Dec 2008)


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## joethelawyer (Aug 21, 2008)

The_Universe said:


> What the heck does this mean?





people getting fired


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## Halivar (Aug 21, 2008)

I sincerely hope it means DDI resources are rerouted into getting me (to buy) more books.


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## Darrin Drader (Aug 21, 2008)

In my experience layoffs and reorgs usually either mean the company isn't hitting its target numbers or the company is undergoing a major change, such as a merger or a sale. I doubt WotC is getting sold (though hope spring eternal) or merged. With Hasbro, it isn't hard for a brand to not perform up to expectations. I have no clue what brands are ailing at the moment, but it will be interesting once we start hearing who gets cut.


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## Halivar (Aug 21, 2008)

Darrin Drader said:


> In my experience layoffs and reorgs usually either mean the company isn't hitting its target numbers



I've also seen this happen when divisional initiatives* not part of the main revenue stream fail miserably. Around 2000, I was in a company that had a multi-million dollar on-line travel thing going on that was supposed to compete with Expedia. The idea was a total loser, and although the company saw great print revenue, the whole company got shuffled around because they needed to axe the dead weight. IOW, I would not take this as any indicator of the success of the 4E print product.

(*)Wait... did I say _initiative_? Must have been a slip of the tongue...


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## Darrin Drader (Aug 21, 2008)

Halivar said:


> IOW, I would not take this as any indicator of the success of the 4E print product.
> 
> (*)Wait... did I say _initiative_? Must have been a slip of the tongue...




No, I wouldn't go that far either. It could mean D&D, or it could mean there's a problem with DDI, or Magic: The Gathering, or Magic Online, or Star Wars, or Duel Masters, or.... There's a whole bunch of minor brands they're lugging around. It could be any of them or it could be a combination of them. It could even be that there's more people than there is work to go around right now, though I have my doubts about that last one.


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## dmccoy1693 (Aug 21, 2008)

No matter how loud I have been against 4E, no matter how I feel about the GSL, the one thing I did not want is for anyone to lose their job.  I genuinely do hope that Hasbro/WotC takes good care of their employees that will no longer be working for them soon.  And I hope they all find good jobs elsewhere.  I hope sales were good enough that layoffs will be exceptionally light.

I'm sorry for all of you.


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## Sonny (Aug 21, 2008)

This has happened before in the early 2000's (2001 or 2002), Some people lost their jobs, but D&D was doing fine then, despite some people predicting that it meant the brand was in serious jeopardy.

This kind of stuff happens. D&D will be fine.



Edit: I also want to give my condolences to the people who have lost their job because of this. It's never easy to lose your job, but even more so in the current economic climate.


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## Dragonhelm (Aug 21, 2008)

One of the layoff casualties is Gleemax.  Here is his story.  

Despite being physically challenged by not having a body, Gleemax had gone far in the industry.  Rising above anti-brain prejudice, he had risen to become a shining example of a Cerebrum American.  He had gone so far as to become the spokes-brain of Wizards of the Coast.

Then, tragedy struck.  He fell in with the wrong crowd.  He started taking mind-enhancing drugs.  He was nearing bankruptcy and the bank was on the verge of repossessing his brain jar.  All the while, he was in denial.

"DO NOT BE PERSuADED BY MY ENEMIES INTO THINKINg THAT MY DEMISE IS QUICKly aPPROACHING."  (Source)

Gleemax had fallen from the public spotlight.  For a while, he was considered as an act for an upcoming amusement park in Roswell, NM.  He even had his own show in Branson.  When the audience became his thralls, he would regale them with tales of the good old days, when he was a brain of fame.  However, the Branson crowd just couldn't get into his unique brand of music, made up of gelatinous noises and electrical impulses.  

Gleemax now lives in a cozy jar in the Rockies, far away from the public eye.  Finally, at peace with his past, he has found God and achieved a sense of serenity.

They say that sometimes, when you listen in the Colorado night, you can hear the faint sounds...







Squibble squibble!


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## malraux (Aug 21, 2008)

Sonny said:


> This has happened before in the early 2000's (2001 or 2002), Some people lost their jobs, but D&D was doing fine then, despite some people predicting that it meant the brand was in serious jeopardy.




IIRC the main reason that there were the job cuts around 2000 was that HAS decided that every division everywhere needed to cut employees.  Hopefully this time management will at least target the cuts.


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## mattdm (Aug 21, 2008)

Probably related at least in part to the Gleemax shutdown, yeah?


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## Relique du Madde (Aug 21, 2008)

Just be thankful that WoTC did not announce that they were outsourcing DDI to some foreign nation to cut production costs.


Here's to hoping that the layoffs don't affect the quality of WoTC's future products.


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## Orius (Aug 21, 2008)

I thought it meant Hasbro's board is lawful evil.  But that alignment got cut in 4e right?

Anyway, if people are getting the axe, I'd imagine Gleemax has something to do with it.  

In any case, isn't there another similar thread around here?  I say a merge might be in order.


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## AllisterH (Aug 21, 2008)

Jasperak said:


> Um, what does that have to do with buying the miniatures you want instead of random boosters?




Can't play Limited without randomized packs


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## Plane Sailing (Aug 21, 2008)

threads merged


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## Draksila (Aug 21, 2008)

Who will get the axe?  My vote would be the dwarven fighter.

As to how this reorganization will affect the game and company, I'd say there's not much point in speculation.  It won't change Hasbro's game plan.  As it is, 4E seems to be a financial success at the moment based on what sales figures have been thrown around by distributors and online stores so far.  My guess is that the D&D staffers won't be affected much, and instead we'll see some of the flagging card games, board games, and online initiatives being cut.


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## Lizard (Aug 21, 2008)

Drkfathr1 said:


> Bet Heroscape goes. You know Wizards was dying to get rid of their mini's competition, especially when Heroscape proved you COULD sell packs of non-random miniatures.




That would suck; I just got into HeroScape. 

Of course, layoffs suck overall; I'm surprised it's happening this fast. Traditionally, WOTC lays people off in December. I have to wonder if the timing was to make sure they had all the warm bodies they needed to handle GenCon.

Layoffs post-launch -- even a massively successful launch, like 4e -- are pretty common. You need fewer people to maintain a product than to create it. I suspect that the collapse of Gleemax may have created some "redundancies". It might also be the success of 4e set new expectations for sales, and areas that were previously doing "good enough" might now look to be "draining our resources". Corpo-think is hard to follow.


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## EATherrian (Aug 21, 2008)

wedgeski said:


> Really? WotC have shattered your dreams? Crikey. I also note with interest you avoided 'too many broken promises' in favour of 'Too many plans not followed through'.
> 
> 
> I so do not want a small, vulnerable company to take control of D&D. I want a large, entrenched player in the market, with plenty of resources and a ton of marketing bulk to throw behind the game. Whatever their mis-steps, I think Wizards are the right people to be holding the reins, just at the moment.




I want a massively wealthy player to buy D&D and run it without worrying about profit.  I intend for it to be me after I perfect cold fusion and become wealthier than the 5 richest kings of Europe.  *sigh*


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## EATherrian (Aug 21, 2008)

Drkfathr1 said:


> Bet Heroscape goes. You know Wizards was dying to get rid of their mini's competition, especially when Heroscape proved you COULD sell packs of non-random miniatures.




If they sold DDM as non-random I would buy them so I doubt this was much of a revelation to them.


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## Zaukrie (Aug 21, 2008)

Someone is suggesting that Hersocape will be cut because it is successful? I mean, you are suggesting that HS proves you can sell non-random minis profitably, but will be cut because WotC people are petty and don't want that proven? Seriously?

We know nothing about the profitability of HS or DDM. But to suggest a profit driven company would cut a profitable line because it proved their theory on random minis wrong is ridiculous.


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## Vayden (Aug 21, 2008)

Draksila said:


> Who will get the axe?  My vote would be the dwarven fighter.




Only if he has Dwarven Weapon Training - otherwise, there's no good reason for the Dwarf to get the magic weapon instead of the Dragonborn Paladin. Come on, when was the last time the paladin got a decent weapon upgrade? I've been lugging around this +1 Flaming Longsword for 7 levels!


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## Shemeska (Aug 22, 2008)

According to the grapevine, Gamer_Zero (Mike Lescault) got the axe.

Edit: It's confirmed according to Solice, the new community manager over at the WotC boards.


			
				Solice said:
			
		

> Mike Gills will be taking over my former position with Magic: the Gathering and MtGO as well as other brands as needed.
> Mike “Gamer Zer0” Lescault has moved on to pursue opportunities outside Wizards of the Coast.


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## Henrix (Aug 22, 2008)

Orius said:


> I thought it meant Hasbro's board is lawful evil.  But that alignment got cut in 4e right?




I sense an evil plot to hide their true alignment. Axing lawful evil (what, but they're lawful! Must mean that they are lawful good, right?) and taking away all powers that detect evil......


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## JoeGKushner (Aug 22, 2008)

wedgeski said:


> I want a large, entrenched player in the market, with plenty of resources and a ton of marketing bulk to throw behind the game. Whatever their mis-steps, I think Wizards are the right people to be holding the reins, just at the moment.




Can you point to some print or television advertising that WoTC has done in the last year? (Serious question cause I can't recall any.)


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## Orius (Aug 22, 2008)

Shemeska said:


> According to the grapevine, Gamer_Zero (Mike Lescault) got the axe.




Wasn't he that guy everyone was mad at over at their boards?  Or am I confusing him with someone else.


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## Shemeska (Aug 22, 2008)

Orius said:


> Wasn't he that guy everyone was mad at over at their boards?  Or am I confusing him with someone else.




Yep, that was him.


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## johnsemlak (Aug 22, 2008)

Shemeska said:


> > Originally Posted by Orius  View Post
> > Wasn't he that guy everyone was mad at over at their boards? Or am I confusing him with someone else.
> 
> 
> ...




What was that about?


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## Shemeska (Aug 22, 2008)

johnsemlak said:


> What was that about?




This 112 page thread over on the WotC boards should explain it. Much of the posting relates to complaints against him and the state of community management over there during his tenure.


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## Morrus (Aug 22, 2008)

Linae Foster's email address autoreplies with: "I am no longer with Wizards of the Coast. Please contact Scott Rouse for an inquiries regarding licensing for Dungeons & Dragons."

That's a damn shame.  I liked Linae.


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## Lizard (Aug 22, 2008)

Morrus said:


> Linae Foster's email address autoreplies with: "I am no longer with Wizards of the Coast. Please contact Scott Rouse for an inquiries regarding licensing for Dungeons & Dragons."
> 
> That's a damn shame.  I liked Linae.




Oh.

Damn.


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## Charwoman Gene (Aug 22, 2008)

Lurking Lidda is gone?


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## Einan (Aug 22, 2008)

And this is why you can't trust WotC with the GSL.  The person who promised us a better tomorrow no longer works here.  Stupid company.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Aug 22, 2008)

Morrus said:


> Linae Foster's email address autoreplies with: "I am no longer with Wizards of the Coast. Please contact Scott Rouse for an inquiries regarding licensing for Dungeons & Dragons."
> 
> That's a damn shame.  I liked Linae.




Oh! 

I wonder if it has just to do with the "refocusing", or if she decided it herself (or both). I suppose she _might_ say that herself on this forum, but so long we could speculate wildly about how she wasn't happy with the GSL and decided to go, or alienated other decisions makers with her position.


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## Carnivorous_Bean (Aug 22, 2008)

Einan said:


> And this is why you can't trust WotC with the GSL. The person who promised us a better tomorrow no longer works here. Stupid company.




Hm .... one must wonder if she got a bit too outspoken for her own good about the GSL.

Be that as it may, I like your signature, Einan -- very solid words!


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## Dragonhelm (Aug 22, 2008)

Shemeska said:


> According to the grapevine, Gamer_Zero (Mike Lescault) got the axe.
> 
> Edit: It's confirmed according to Solice, the new community manager over at the WotC boards.




I don't know about any of the complaints regarding Mike, but from my own personal experience, he was a nice guy.  He was fairly good about getting back to me when I had questions and he seemed to be trying to work towards making the community a better place.

Mike, if you're reading, I wish you the best.


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## Drkfathr1 (Aug 22, 2008)

Zaukrie said:


> Someone is suggesting that Hersocape will be cut because it is successful? I mean, you are suggesting that HS proves you can sell non-random minis profitably, but will be cut because WotC people are petty and don't want that proven? Seriously?
> 
> We know nothing about the profitability of HS or DDM. But to suggest a profit driven company would cut a profitable line because it proved their theory on random minis wrong is ridiculous.




Yes, because nothing WoTC does is ever ridiculous.


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## Knight Otu (Aug 22, 2008)

Morrus said:


> Linae Foster's email address autoreplies with: "I am no longer with Wizards of the Coast. Please contact Scott Rouse for an inquiries regarding licensing for Dungeons & Dragons."
> 
> That's a damn shame.  I liked Linae.




Well f(our-letter-word). There goes a good shred of hope for the revised GSL.


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## Carnivorous_Bean (Aug 22, 2008)

Drkfathr1 said:


> Yes, because nothing WoTC does is ever ridiculous.



 '

Just look at Games Workshop for something similar.

"This 40K RPG sold out the first printing on preorders, before it even hit the stores -- let's discontinue it 2 days after its release."


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## Lackhand (Aug 22, 2008)

Drkfathr1 said:


> Yes, because nothing WoTC does is ever ridiculous.



Which is why I'm certain they're investing heavily in a new collectible can game, _Tuna: The Reckoning_.

I think there's a minimum standard of sense we need to apply here


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## The Little Raven (Aug 22, 2008)

Knight Otu said:


> There goes a good shred of hope for the revised GSL.




We may have lost the lieutenant, but the general (aka The Rouse) is still in the fight.


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## Lizard (Aug 22, 2008)

I wouldn't read too much into who was "let go" or is "pursuing other opportunities". Mass layoffs like this tend to be based on pure headcount and formulae which have little to do with "X was a good worker" or "Y caused too much trouble". When an individual "leaves to spend more time with their family", it might be due to something they alone did, but when it's a mass thing like this? Looking for motive beyond "Heads you stay, tails you go" tends to be rumormongering and schadenfreude.

Being fired sucks. Being fired right after a massively successful product launch -- which, in a logical world, would lead to rewards and bonuses and new hires -- sucks really hard. 

Based on prior performance, though, look for a second round right about Christmas time. That's the usual Hasbro layoff season.


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## dmccoy1693 (Aug 22, 2008)

Knight Otu said:


> Well f(our-letter-word). There goes a good shred of hope for the revised GSL.




GSL be damned.  Lidda was a damn good woman who I'm sure didn't deserve a layoff.  

Lidda, if you're reading, I hope you find a good job elsewhere soon.


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## Zaukrie (Aug 22, 2008)

Linnae was really nice. I only met her in person once, but she was nice. Hopefully things go well for her.


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## Daniel D. Fox (Aug 22, 2008)

Shemeska said:


> According to the grapevine, Gamer_Zero (Mike Lescault) got the axe.
> 
> Edit: It's confirmed according to Solice, the new community manager over at the WotC boards.




I still find it ironic that he was a community manager with WotC, but suffered from one of the worst community reputations with Mythic on Dark Age of Camelot (reference "Mackey" Lescault). 

[[edited private information out]]


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## Traycor (Aug 22, 2008)

Knight Otu said:


> Well f(our-letter-word). There goes a good shred of hope for the revised GSL.




There's still hope. The Rouse posted this just yesterday on the WotC boards:

http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=16639017&postcount=182


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## Henry (Aug 22, 2008)

The Little Raven said:


> We may have lost the lieutenant, but the general (aka The Rouse) is still in the fight.




For Now. That's what worries me about cutbacks like this - someone you think is pretty well entrenched there suddenly starts giving autoreplies like what Russ got from Linae.

Sad thing, too - Linae has been one of the best presences out there for putting a public face on WotC after the 2006 public relations debacle. My concern is we'll go right back to the people who actually interact with the fans just disappearing and the company going silent again like two years ago.


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## Scott_Rouse (Aug 22, 2008)

I am still here and still revising the GSL.


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## helium3 (Aug 22, 2008)

Darrin Drader said:


> In my experience layoffs and reorgs usually either mean the company isn't hitting its target numbers or the company is undergoing a major change, such as a merger or a sale. I doubt WotC is getting sold (though hope spring eternal) or merged. With Hasbro, it isn't hard for a brand to not perform up to expectations. I have no clue what brands are ailing at the moment, but it will be interesting once we start hearing who gets cut.




I'm guessing that the bulk of people getting laid off were those directly involved in Gleemax and the other product lines that are getting the axe.

Haven't heard about Linae and Gamer Zero getting laid off yet, though.


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## davethegame (Aug 22, 2008)

That's really a shame... I met Mike at GenCon just one week ago, and he seemed like a really nice guy, and very honest. And he was doing all their video coverage too! Poor timing, to say the least. And Linae was always really nice and active around here. I wish them both the best in their next job.


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## mcrow (Aug 22, 2008)

sad to here about people losing their jobs. 

However, from my purely selfish gaming perspective, I'd like to see D&D minis go the way of Heroscape, not collectible.

I'd buy atleast one of every set they put out if they did that. As it is now I buy none.


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## Thaumaturge (Aug 22, 2008)

Ah the internet, where we can take someone's loss and quickly make it about ourselves.

Linae, Mike, and everyone who has been "aligned" out of a job, you have my sympathies.  

Thaumaturge.


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## Jack99 (Aug 22, 2008)

Scott_Rouse said:


> I am still here and still revising the GSL.




Phew


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## lurkinglidda (Aug 22, 2008)

dmccoy1693 said:


> GSL be damned. Lidda was a damn good woman who I'm sure didn't deserve a layoff.
> 
> Lidda, if you're reading, I hope you find a good job elsewhere soon.




Thanks for the support everyone! 

I want to remain in the gaming industry. Perhaps my next job will be with with mice instead of dice. Time will tell.

Oh, and I still have every faith in the D&D brand, 4e and Scott. If he says he's going to do something you can believe he will do everything in his power to make it happen. He's good like that.


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## The Little Raven (Aug 22, 2008)

Scott_Rouse said:


> I am still here and still revising the GSL.




I am very glad to hear that, and I hope to hear some good news from you soon. Keep your chin up!


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## Knight Otu (Aug 22, 2008)

(Yeesh, hopefully this post'll get through this time.)

Please don't think I don't feel for Linae, I do. I doubt I'd have reacted this angrily if I didn't. Nor did I mean any disrespect to Scott. I still have hope that he can push things through, but losing a strong supporting voice like that surely isn't going to help.

On the MtG side of things, I've heard rumor that Head Developer Devin Low got the axe as well.


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## Mark (Aug 22, 2008)

lurkinglidda said:


> Free Range Gamer






Good one.


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## dmccoy1693 (Aug 22, 2008)

lurkinglidda said:


> Thanks for the support everyone!
> 
> I want to remain in the gaming industry. Perhaps my next job will be with with mice instead of dice. Time will tell.




You know, Paizo employs alot of good people that use to work at Wizards. Just saying.


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## Traycor (Aug 22, 2008)

lurkinglidda said:


> Thanks for the support everyone!
> 
> I want to remain in the gaming industry. Perhaps my next job will be with with mice instead of dice. Time will tell.
> 
> Oh, and I still have every faith in the D&D brand, 4e and Scott. If he says he's going to do something you can believe he will do everything in his power to make it happen. He's good like that.




Wow. That's a real class-act right there. With such a great attitude, you'll be just fine until you find something new.


----------



## jgbrowning (Aug 22, 2008)

lurkinglidda said:


> Thanks for the support everyone!
> 
> I want to remain in the gaming industry. Perhaps my next job will be with with mice instead of dice. Time will tell.
> 
> Oh, and I still have every faith in the D&D brand, 4e and Scott. If he says he's going to do something you can believe he will do everything in his power to make it happen. He's good like that.




Linae, Suzi and I wish you well and thank you for all your efforts.

Joseph Browning
Expeditious Retreat Press


----------



## Shemeska (Aug 22, 2008)

lurkinglidda said:


> Thanks for the support everyone!




Good luck with whatever the future brings Linae.


----------



## catsclaw227 (Aug 22, 2008)

lurkinglidda said:


> Thanks for the support everyone!
> 
> I want to remain in the gaming industry. Perhaps my next job will be with with mice instead of dice. Time will tell.
> 
> Oh, and I still have every faith in the D&D brand, 4e and Scott. If he says he's going to do something you can believe he will do everything in his power to make it happen. He's good like that.




Good Luck Linae!  Keep poking your head on EnWorld once in a while and let us know what's going on with you.


----------



## Mouseferatu (Aug 22, 2008)

jgbrowning said:


> Linae, Suzi and I wish you well and thank you for all your efforts.
> 
> Joseph Browning
> Expeditious Retreat Press




This. Thanks for all you've done, Linae, and best of luck in whatever comes next.


----------



## Klaus (Aug 22, 2008)

lurkinglidda said:


> Thanks for the support everyone!
> 
> I want to remain in the gaming industry. Perhaps my next job will be with with mice instead of dice. Time will tell.
> 
> Oh, and I still have every faith in the D&D brand, 4e and Scott. If he says he's going to do something you can believe he will do everything in his power to make it happen. He's good like that.



Tons of good luck to you, Linae, and I still hope to meet you in person someday to thank you for all the hard work you put up (and put up with) for our hobby!

As for "mice instead of dice", are you gonna work for Disney?


----------



## Klaus (Aug 22, 2008)

lurkinglidda said:


> Thanks for the support everyone!
> 
> I want to remain in the gaming industry. Perhaps my next job will be with with mice instead of dice. Time will tell.
> 
> Oh, and I still have every faith in the D&D brand, 4e and Scott. If he says he's going to do something you can believe he will do everything in his power to make it happen. He's good like that.



Tons of good luck to you, Linae, and I still hope to meet you in person someday to thank you for all the hard work you put up (and put up with) for our hobby!

As for "mice instead of dice", are you gonna work for Disney?


----------



## blargney the second (Aug 22, 2008)

Thanks for being such a good communicator with us here, Linae!  You did great work for WotC, and I'm sure whoever's lucky enough to hire you next will reap the benefits as well.
-blarg


----------



## buzz (Aug 22, 2008)

JoeGKushner said:


> Can you point to some print or television advertising that WoTC has done in the last year? (Serious question cause I can't recall any.)



For some time now, WotC has been doing ads in Dark Horse comic titles. I'm betting other comic publishers as well. They've also been doing banner advertising on gaming-related or geek-focused sites, as well as comparatively increased coverage in _Wired_ magazine and other news outlets.

TV is probably not profitable for them.


----------



## Caliber (Aug 22, 2008)

buzz said:


> For some time now, WotC has been doing ads in Dark Horse comic titles. I'm betting other comic publishers as well. They've also been doing banner advertising on gaming-related or geek-focused sites, as well as comparatively increased coverage in _Wired_ magazine and other news outlets.
> 
> TV is probably not profitable for them.




I was dragged to A-Kon this year (an anime convention) by my wife; we had a lot of fun but that isn't the point here. I snagged quite a few free comics while there and read them on the ride back home. DnD ads were all over 'em ... I don't generally read comics anymore, but I was pretty surprised. Hadn't seen a physical ad for DnD in a while!


----------



## JVisgaitis (Aug 22, 2008)

Man, why does really bad news always have to follow so closely on the heels of good news?  Thanks for all you did Linae. Best of luck to you in whatever you do. I'd tell you to keep your chin up, but you obviously don't need that advice you've been a class act to the end. Take care!


----------



## Lab_Monkey (Aug 22, 2008)

I'm also very sorry to hear that Lurking Lidda will no longer be with WotC.  I always enjoyed her posts at Maxminis and here at ENWorld.  Best wishes Linae in moving on to a new position; you will be missed.


----------



## justanobody (Aug 22, 2008)

lurkinglidda said:


> Thanks for the support everyone!
> 
> I want to remain in the gaming industry. Perhaps my next job will be with with mice instead of dice. Time will tell.
> 
> Oh, and I still have every faith in the D&D brand, 4e and Scott. If he says he's going to do something you can believe he will do everything in his power to make it happen. He's good like that.




Just be sure to tell everyone your technique for rolling mice. 

Good luck finding a replacement position.


----------



## FATDRAGONGAMES (Aug 23, 2008)

Linae-best of luck from all of us here at FDG. You were a real pleasure to work with and it is truly WOTC's loss. I'm sure someone as competent as yourself will land another position soon.


----------



## Plissken (Aug 23, 2008)

For those who don't think Hasbro == cyborg:
[ame]http://www.amazon.com/Toy-Wars-Struggle-Between-Companies/dp/158062104X/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1219450961&sr=8-2[/ame]


----------



## Varianor Abroad (Aug 23, 2008)

I'm sorry to all who have lost their jobs! May you find better work and quickly.


----------



## questing gm (Aug 23, 2008)

This just sucks. 
LurkingLidda, I really wish you the best and if you don't mind, I have something for you in my blog (it's my sig).


----------



## Urza (Aug 23, 2008)

Lizard said:


> Being fired sucks. Being fired right after a massively successful product launch -- which, in a logical world, would lead to rewards and bonuses and new hires -- sucks really hard.




I wouldn't call it a successful product launch. Just because WotC's warehouse ran out of books doesn't mean distributors and stores ran out of books. 

Simply put distributors over ordered and the books aren't moving. Yeah WotC had to go to a second print run.. but if it was needed... why cancel projects and fire employees. Because they're losing money.


----------



## Sonny (Aug 23, 2008)

Urza said:


> I wouldn't call it a successful product launch. Just because WotC's warehouse ran out of books doesn't mean distributors and stores ran out of books.
> 
> Simply put distributors over ordered and the books aren't moving. Yeah WotC had to go to a second print run.. but if it was needed... why cancel projects and fire employees. Because they're losing money.




As mentioned before, this happened  in 2000, a few months after the third edition launched, this isn't some kind of indication of fourth failing.


Edit: fixed stuff


----------



## Orius (Aug 23, 2008)

Shemeska said:


> Yep, that was him.




That makes me wonder a bit if letting him go has something to do with all those complaints or something.  Even if it's not his fault, he'll still get some blame for drawing fire.


----------



## Kez Darksun (Aug 23, 2008)

Best of luck in finding a new job, Linae.  I just recently came back to both ENWorld as well as the WotC boards, so I haven't seen a lot of your interaction with the community, but what I have seen was always positive and helpful, and for that I thank you.


----------



## charlesatan (Aug 23, 2008)

Good luck to both Linae and Mike!


----------



## portermj (Aug 23, 2008)

Urza said:


> I wouldn't call it a successful product launch. Just because WotC's warehouse ran out of books doesn't mean distributors and stores ran out of books.
> 
> Simply put distributors over ordered and the books aren't moving. Yeah WotC had to go to a second print run.. but if it was needed... why cancel projects and fire employees. Because they're losing money.




So your thesis is that distributors and game stores as a group are massively incompetent when it comes to ordering product?  

It is a wonder the hobby has lasted all these years.


----------



## Orcus (Aug 23, 2008)

I was so bummed to hear about Linae. I have to say that, other than perhaps only Sue Cook, I cant think of a person who is more universally liked, respected and considered honest and friendly as Linae. She really is great. She and Scott have been so amazing in keeping up the fight for third party publishers. I am sad to see her go. That doesnt undermine my confidence in Scott to get things done for the GSL, but I sure wish Lidda was still there with him. Linae, from what I know of her, seems like the kind of person who will bloom where she is planted so I expect great things from her wherever the road takes her. 

Linae, you know you have my thoughts and best wishes. Gaming needs more people like you, not less. 

Clark


----------



## LeaderDesslok (Aug 23, 2008)

Sorry to see that you got the axe, Linae. You were my favorite "good face" at Wizards of the Coast.  Even a lot of the kookier people (talking mostly about the WotC boards) seemed to calm down and appreciate your input. Good luck to Scott managing without you.

On a positive note, I seriously doubt you are going to spend much time unemployed. You are far too talented and well-liked in the gaming industry-- and greater gaming community--to not get offers from several companies pretty quickly.

Take a little time for yourself to relax anyway. Good luck to you!


----------



## lurkinglidda (Aug 23, 2008)

Wow - I'm really feeling the love!

It's been amazing to see all the message boards, blogs, and personal emails singing my praises. I had no idea anyone cared so this is awesome. 

Thanks everyone for all the support.


----------



## MerricB (Aug 23, 2008)

lurkinglidda said:


> Wow - I'm really feeling the love!
> 
> It's been amazing to see all the message boards, blogs, and personal emails singing my praises. I had no idea anyone cared so this is awesome.
> 
> Thanks everyone for all the support.




Best wishes from Down Under, Linae. I hope you find a new job quickly, and it's doing something you enjoy. 

I'm so sorry to hear you'll no longer at Wizards; you were exceptional there.

Cheers,
Merric


----------



## Roland55 (Aug 23, 2008)

Revise away, brave soldier, revise away.


----------



## Henrix (Aug 23, 2008)

Good luck, Linae! I'm certain you'll find another good position soon!


----------



## Roland55 (Aug 23, 2008)

lurkinglidda said:


> Wow - I'm really feeling the love!
> 
> It's been amazing to see all the message boards, blogs, and personal emails singing my praises. I had no idea anyone cared so this is awesome.
> 
> Thanks everyone for all the support.




You deserve it.  You were unfailingly polite and kind.  Not to mention knowledgeable.

Even more unusual -- you always seemed to know what not to say and when not to respond.

Rare talents, all.  You won't go without employment long.


----------



## Lizard (Aug 23, 2008)

Urza said:


> I wouldn't call it a successful product launch. Just because WotC's warehouse ran out of books doesn't mean distributors and stores ran out of books.
> 
> Simply put distributors over ordered and the books aren't moving. Yeah WotC had to go to a second print run.. but if it was needed... why cancel projects and fire employees. Because they're losing money.




Uhm...no.

First, having heard from quite a lot of people at all stages of the distribution chain, 4e is selling. Well. And so are adventures, which means people aren't just buying, but actually playing. Whether or not you like 4e, its commercial success is an objective fact. (I have never understood why people seem compelled to conflate "I don't like it" with "It's a commercial failure". Most of my favorite TV shows were canceled early, and Robert Jordan is (well, was) a best selling writer. A sure sign of pure Nerd Rage overwhelming the logic circuits is when someone claims something is a 'failure' on no basis other than 'I don't like it' -- see unending "WoW is dying!" posts on MMO forums for good examples.)

Second, assuming the layoffs are correlated directly to 4e sales is specious at best. Consider:
a)Development is over. Maintenance is a lot easier. Fewer people are needed.
b)4e "raised the bar" as to what level of sales could be expected. Product lines which seemed to be "acceptable" now look "underperforming". Why not cut them and shift the survivors to D&D?
c)It's always easier to bring in the next crop of freelancers at reduced salaries and get rid of the old hands who have earned benefits. 
d)If 4e was a flop, wouldn't the Brand Manager be getting the axe as well? 
e)Corporations don't use Earth Logic. Attempting to apply it will always result in headaches and wrong conclusions.
f)Gleemax was the "shot across the bow". Someone at corporate realized,too late, that they couldn't outdo MySpace. This has nothing to do with 4e's success.

IAE, if you want to argue "Is 4e a success?", take it to a forked thread.


----------



## defendi (Aug 23, 2008)

Linae,

Really, you were a delight to work with.  Let us know where you land so we can buy some of their product to reward their good taste.

Robert D
Final Redoubt Press


----------



## Klaus (Aug 23, 2008)

lurkinglidda said:


> Wow - I'm really feeling the love!
> 
> It's been amazing to see all the message boards, blogs, and personal emails singing my praises. I had no idea anyone cared so this is awesome.
> 
> Thanks everyone for all the support.



I think if there was any chance that a show of support would make the bigwigs reverse that decision, Linae, you'd be back on the job in no-time. The community recognized your sincerity and hard work, and the endurance you've shown when taking flak from missteps that weren't even your own.


----------



## Plissken (Aug 23, 2008)

Is Blue still around?


----------



## lrsach01 (Aug 23, 2008)

Plissken said:


> Is Blue still around?




Good question. I understand she was at GenCon signing copies of Gamers2 but I didn't see her.


----------



## charlesatan (Aug 24, 2008)

lrsach01 said:


> Good question. I understand she was at GenCon signing copies of Gamers2 but I didn't see her.




Here's her blog entry (with accompanying photo) on GenCon. She'll apparently be making an appearance in PAX.


----------



## Mr Baron (Aug 24, 2008)

Best wishes for Linae and all the rest of the folks who are now looking for new jobs.


----------



## Rechan (Aug 24, 2008)

You know. With all the love Linae is getting here by the 3PP publishers, you'd think she'd have an easy time getting a job.


----------



## FormerlyDickensC (Aug 24, 2008)

Lizard said:


> Second, assuming the layoffs are correlated directly to 4e sales is specious at best. Consider:
> a)Development is over. Maintenance is a lot easier. Fewer people are needed.
> b)...



Lizard, 

Just b/c you can rationalize a certain piece of information in a particular way, your rationalization does not automatically make it factual. 

You arguing *around* the issue and creating more nonsensical/irrelevant flak. 

Bottom line is this, 4E is a good rule system.  Hands down.  But, nevertheless, WOTC is a bad company from a customer perspective.  Again, hands down.  

One day, I'm sure we will know the behind the scenes story.  But that day is not now.  Until then, the general perception (maybe not yours, but the general perception) is one of malice and wrong-doing on the part of WOTC corporate leadership. 

Lastly, the word choice in re: to the use of "conflate" could not be more apropo coming from you as you seem to be master at conflating issues.



Lizard said:


> IAE, if you want to argue "Is 4e a success?", take it to a forked thread.



 Why so bossy? Who are you to bark orders such as this? Why don't you simply relax and think about what you type (a time or two) before you actually type it.  I hope I never meet you in person. 



Lizard said:


> b)4e "raised the bar" as to what level of sales could be expected. Product lines which seemed to be "acceptable" now look "underperforming". Why not cut them and shift the survivors to D&D?



Pure speculation. You know not wherein you speak. 



Lizard said:


> c)It's always easier to bring in the next crop of freelancers at reduced salaries and get rid of the old hands who have earned benefits.



Again, you have no way of knowing that this was the intent.  More speculative drivel.



Lizard said:


> d)If 4e was a flop, wouldn't the Brand Manager be getting the axe as well?



 ..false dilemma. Look it up. 



Lizard said:


> e)Corporations don't use Earth Logic. Attempting to apply it will always result in headaches and wrong conclusions.



 Are you kidding me?



Lizard said:


> f)Gleemax was the "shot across the bow". Someone at corporate realized,too late, that they couldn't outdo MySpace. This has nothing to do with 4e's success



 Must I say it again....


----------



## Lizard (Aug 24, 2008)

FormerlyDickensC said:


> One day, I'm sure we will know the behind the scenes story.  But that day is not now.  Until then, the general perception (maybe not yours, but the general perception) is one of malice and wrong-doing on the part of WOTC corporate leadership.




And what does this have to do with the post I was responding to, which claimed the 4e launch could not be considered a financial success?

I happen to agree that WOTC has managed to squander the good reputation they worked so hard to build back when they first took over D&D. But how is that relevant to my post?



> Why so bossy? Who are you to bark orders such as this? Why don't you simply relax and think about what you type (a time or two) before you actually type it.  I hope I never meet you in person.




I was trying to avoid thread drift. I am SUCH a horrible, evil, person. Did I mention I kick puppies in my spare time?


----------



## AdmundfortGeographer (Aug 24, 2008)

Lizard said:


> I am SUCH a horrible, evil, person. Did I mention I kick puppies in my spare time?



Hmm, I think I heard something about kittens and blenders as well.


----------



## Jack99 (Aug 24, 2008)

Eric Anondson said:


> Hmm, I think I heard something about kittens and blenders as well.




You are wrong. It was goldfish in blenders. But afaik, that wasn't Rechan, since he isn't danish


----------



## FormerlyDickensC (Aug 24, 2008)

Lizard said:


> I was trying to avoid thread drift. I am SUCH a horrible, evil, person. Did I mention I kick puppies in my spare time?



Nice. Care to respond to the substantive issues?

And since your reply was posted within 5 minutes of my post, it is clear that you didn't heed the advice to think (more than once) before you type.

..no seriously, do you not have the slightest urge to respond substantively rather than asking more irrelevant questions and diverting the focus of the discussion? 

..not even the slightest urge to backup what you say?


----------



## icarusfallz (Aug 24, 2008)

I found Lizard's post to be fairly on point.  I agree with most of what he said.  Formerly Dickens, you seem to have some personal issue with Liz.  Hope you don't meet in public?  That sounds threatening.  

We spout such vitriol at each other, and for what?  For posting our OPINIONS?  For posting a few FACTS?  Jeezus, people, grow the hell up.

Frankly, WoTC has basically said that Gleemax was meant to be LIKE a MySpace for gamers.  Sadly, it never was.  I use MySpace to host characters for my tabletop D&D games.  I ask all of my players to create accounts for their characters.  I can hand out EPs there, send private communications, post bulletins about festivals, whatever.  If WoTC gave me a  better utility to use for this sort of thing (as Gleemax was SUPPOSED to be) I would be very appreciative.

They failed.

I hate that people that helped facilitate the playing of the game that I love got fired.  It sucks.  Taking petty, personal swipes against people posting on a board that is supposed to be FOR those people sucks worse.  Lidda, GZ, and the others, I am so sorry to hear about your troubles.  It sucks to be in America with no job these days.  Luckily, you have the skills and personalities to make it.  I am sure you will.  Karma will watch out for you.


----------



## Tetsubo (Aug 24, 2008)

Drkfathr1 said:


> Bet Heroscape goes. You know Wizards was dying to get rid of their mini's competition, especially when Heroscape proved you COULD sell packs of non-random miniatures.




Shhhhhhhhhhh. Truth like that will get you in trouble.


----------



## Tetsubo (Aug 24, 2008)

I bet the marketing department remains untouched.

Which is where the cuts really need to be made.


----------



## FormerlyDickensC (Aug 24, 2008)

icarusfallz said:


> I found Lizard's post to be fairly on point.  I agree with most of what he said.  Formerly Dickens, you seem to have some personal issue with Liz.  Hope you don't meet in public?  That sounds threatening.
> 
> We spout such vitriol at each other, and for what?  For posting our OPINIONS?  For posting a few FACTS?  Jeezus, people, grow the hell up.
> 
> ...



Are you serious? Did you read my post?  

I did not make one personal attack on Lizard. I systematically responded to his post and pointed out logical fallacies in his rhetoric (I may have not done it *well*, but that is what I did). This is precisely NOT vitriolic. 

And there is nothing threatening about hoping to not meet a particular person.  IOW, his barking of orders is so repugnant that it offends me to a degree that makes me not want to meet the person.  

There is nothing threatening herein. Speaking of rhetorical fallacies, your comment about threats is a red herring. It hides the real issue and diverts the discussion to an unrelated and unnecessary topic. 

Go back and read my post, not just Lizard's reply (which contains nothing of substance). Here is the link to my post: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showpost.php?p=4438096&postcount=117

...whatever.  WOTC has enumerable problems. And getting into a pissing contest here does nothing to help.  RPG message board discussion....what was I thinking anyway? 

Good night, guys! I wish those who had to leave WOTC the best in finding a new job. Somehow, I think there are opportunities to be had in spite of the departure. Perhaps, a blessing in disguise.


----------



## WhatGravitas (Aug 24, 2008)

Sad to see Linae "reorganized". 

She's a great gal and was always in touch with the gamers out there. I hope all goes well in her future!

Cheers, LT.


----------



## Wayside (Aug 24, 2008)

FormerlyDickensC said:


> Are you serious? Did you read my post?
> 
> I did not make one personal attack on Lizard. I systematically responded to his post and pointed out logical fallacies in his rhetoric (I may have not done it *well*, but that is what I did). This is precisely NOT vitriolic.



First, referring to someone's post as "speculative drivel" is pretty vitriolic.

Second, you attempted to point out fallacies in his logic, not his rhetoric.

Third, your finger is not on the pulse of gamers. You have no basis in fact for any of your remarks about WotC other than your own opinion. If "speculative drivel" is a fair description of some of what Lizard said, then that goes for you as well.

Finally, how did the irony of a question like "Care to respond to the substantive issues?" escape you? Lizard just pointed out to you that your initial response wasn't even relevant to his post, so your next move was to...skip over that and say he's the one going off topic? Really?



FormerlyDickensC said:


> And there is nothing threatening about hoping to not meet a particular person.  IOW, his barking of orders is so repugnant that it offends me to a degree that makes me not want to meet the person.



It's simply good manners. This thread has a topic. You're off it (and admittedly, I'm now contributing to that too). The point is that if you want to discuss something that isn't relevant to the topic of a thread, it's common courtesy to start a new thread for that discussion. Nobody's "barking orders" at you, although I wouldn't be surprised if a mod came along and did some red typing.



FormerlyDickensC said:


> There is nothing threatening herein. Speaking of rhetorical fallacies, your comment about threats is a red herring. It hides the real issue and diverts the discussion to an unrelated and unnecessary topic.



Did you just finish reading _Thinking from A to Z_ or something? Anyway, icarusfallz's comment was a legitimate response to a troubling part of your post. Since you've clarified that you weren't threatening anybody, there's no reason to continue down that line of discussion.


----------



## Lizard (Aug 24, 2008)

FormerlyDickensC said:


> Nice. Care to respond to the substantive issues?




I did.



> And since your reply was posted within 5 minutes of my post, it is clear that you didn't heed the advice to think (more than once) before you type.




Hmm...with you it's "advice", with me it's "barking orders". Mr. Pot? We have a Mr. Kettle on line two for you.



> ..no seriously, do you not have the slightest urge to respond substantively rather than asking more irrelevant questions and diverting the focus of the discussion?




I'm pretty sure ENWorld has a kill filter. If you don't like my writing style, it should be trivial for you to avoid it. 

There's nothing "substantive" in your post to respond to. It consists, pretty much entirely, of "Neener neener, you're wrong -- and, oo look, I just took a five minute course on 'logical falacies'." It utterly fails to address the actual issue *I* was addressing -- that you cannot leap from "There were layoffs at WOTC" to "Therefore, the 4e launch failed". I pointed out there are many other possible explanations. Of course that was "speculation". I was "speculating". Short of having recordings of the boardroom meetings of whoever made the decisions, the Truth Shall Not Be Known. Now, if you feel some of my speculations are more or less likely than others, feel free to elaborate, but pointing out that speculation is speculation is pretty much the antithesis of "substantive".



> ..not even the slightest urge to backup what you say?




Nope, not really.

Go bother someone who has a history of deep, meaningful, discourse replete with detailed responses and complex, nuanced, posts. Hong, say.

Meanwhile, can we try to keep this topic on the layoffs, and the people affected by them, and less on me? Granted, my ego loves it, but I've been told there are things more important than my ego. I don't believe such drivel, of course, but I am trying to keep an open mind.

Oh dear. Barking orders AGAIN, I suppose. It's a habit. Now, where are those puppies? I've got some new boots to try out!


----------



## ascendance (Aug 24, 2008)

*What's likely to get the axe*

If Star Wars is getting the axe, that's probably due to licensing reasons, not profitability.

I think Dreamblade's already done, but the Axis and Allies miniatures game is probably likely to get the axe next.  It's all their licensed flop CCGs - Transformers, Maple Story, Duel Masters - that I'd be worried about.


----------



## Rel (Aug 24, 2008)

Formerly Dickens, if you don't like what Lizard has to say or the way he says it then skip his posts.  If you need assistance with that then use the Ignore feature.  That's why it's there.  This snarky dissection of his posts is not an approach that leads to productive discussion.  So cut that out.


----------



## DM-Rocco (Aug 24, 2008)

Morrus said:


> Linae Foster's email address autoreplies with: "I am no longer with Wizards of the Coast. Please contact Scott Rouse for an inquiries regarding licensing for Dungeons & Dragons."
> 
> That's a damn shame.  I liked Linae.




Regarding Linae Foster, I liked working with her.  I guess I assume that any arrangement I had with her regarding licensing of 3.5 and 4e content is still valid unless I hear from someone else saying otherwise.

Perhaps I need to e-mail Scott Rouse to make sure.  Dang, he can be hard to get ahold of.


----------



## DM-Rocco (Aug 24, 2008)

buzz said:


> For some time now, WotC has been doing ads in Dark Horse comic titles. I'm betting other comic publishers as well. They've also been doing banner advertising on gaming-related or geek-focused sites, as well as comparatively increased coverage in _Wired_ magazine and other news outlets.
> 
> TV is probably not profitable for them.




I didn't see it come up very often, but I did see some ads on tv for 4e.  So, they thought it was worth something.


----------



## JoeGKushner (Aug 24, 2008)

buzz said:


> For some time now, WotC has been doing ads in Dark Horse comic titles. I'm betting other comic publishers as well. They've also been doing banner advertising on gaming-related or geek-focused sites, as well as comparatively increased coverage in _Wired_ magazine and other news outlets.
> 
> TV is probably not profitable for them.




Thanks for that buzz. I remember the terrible ads that were like, "If you're going to pretend to be an elf" for 3rd, but don't recall any for 4th ed.


----------



## BraveSirRobin (Aug 24, 2008)

I would suggest that Linae possibly enter the consulting route for a while.  I am sure there are probably a number of 3pp that would be willing to pay a former insider a pretty penny to help them navigate the GSL, whether they intend on signing or not.  That is unless the terms of her severance precludes this, which would be a shame.  She might even consider returning the severance as the consulting gig might be even more profitable.


----------



## FormerlyDickensC (Aug 24, 2008)

Rel said:


> Formerly Dickens, if you don't like what Lizard has to say or the way he says it then skip his posts.  If you need assistance with that then use the Ignore feature.  That's why it's there.  This snarky dissection of his posts is not an approach that leads to productive discussion.  So cut that out.



Jump on the bandwagon much? Am I going to be banned for disagreeing with another poster? I'm not outside of the posting guidelines. But my post does not agree with moderators or established posters, therefore I must be wrong. Well, I understand. My apologies. ..In Soviet ENWorld, .... awe never mind!


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## Morrus (Aug 24, 2008)

FormerlyDickensC said:


> Jump on the bandwagon much? Am I going to be banned for disagreeing with another poster? I'm not outside of the posting guidelines. But my post does not agree with moderators or established posters, therefore I must be wrong. Well, I understand. My apologies. ..In Soviet ENWorld, .... awe never mind!




You weren't outside guidelines by that much, thus all you got was a warning.

But you committed a cardinal sin with _this_ post.  Whoops!  We'll see you in three days; in the meantime, feel free to review the _very strict _ and clear rules about not arguing with moderation in threads.


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## DM-Rocco (Aug 24, 2008)

Shemeska said:


> This 112 page thread over on the WotC boards should explain it. Much of the posting relates to complaints against him and the state of community management over there during his tenure.




Okay, I tok a look at the last page and the front page but I admit I don't have the time to sift through 3000+ posts.  Is the basic story that WOTC had no one watching out on the boards and then they had this Mike guy do it and he went nuts?  Or can someone sum up 3000+ posts in a paragraph or two?


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## Wonka (Aug 24, 2008)

FormerlyDickensC said:


> Jump on the bandwagon much? Am I going to be banned for disagreeing with another poster?




For what its worth, I believe the issue, as was pointed out, is the MANNER in which you went about disagreeing. The rest of that post, well, you had to know what was coming next.

Sorry to drift off topic, back to the issue at hand. Im sorry to hear about everyone who has been let go. Regardless of the reasons, probably which we will NEVER know for sure, you never like to hear about people losing their jobs. I wish everyone let go the best of luck.


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## Charwoman Gene (Aug 25, 2008)

----


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## DM-Rocco (Aug 25, 2008)

Charwoman Gene said:


> Wow.  You actually just posted suppositions about peoples behavior and motivations in a damaging way after refusingto read a thread.  After your "shirt" incident I'd think you'd be more sensitive.




The two are not the same, although I can see why you might think that way.

In the case of the shirts, Mistwell accused me of something based on rumor and conjecture.  In this thread, I read the last page and the first page and my quick summation is that, based on what a few people said about this Mike person here and what I read on those two pages in the link, this Mike fellow seemed to be the cause of a controversy and I just wanted to understand more.  

Now, I didn't say, "let's burn down WOTC until we have Mike's Blood," I simply wanted to understand the whole situation without having to read over 3000 posts.  If it was only something like 10 pages I would read that by myself, but I don't even think Crothain has time to read that much.

  I did see a lot of people who seemed to praise this Mike fellow in this thread so it confused me and that is when I wanted to learn more about what the whole 3000 + post was all about.

Anyway, I just wanted to see if I was understanding the issue at hand or if there was something else I didn't see.


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## hennebeck (Aug 25, 2008)

> Oh, and I still have every faith in the D&D brand, 4e and Scott. If he says he's going to do something you can believe he will do everything in his power to make it happen. He's good like that.




You don't work for them anymore, remember, you can tell us the truth now.



Thanks for doing a fabulous job, Linae.


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## catsclaw227 (Aug 25, 2008)

DM-Rocco said:


> I did see a lot of people who seemed to praise this Mike fellow in this thread so it confused me and that is when I wanted to learn more about what the whole 3000 + post was all about.
> 
> Anyway, I just wanted to see if I was understanding the issue at hand or if there was something else I didn't see.



Actually I am sorta curious as well, not from a morbid, watching a train-wreck kinda curious, but more like an interest in what was causing all the controversy, and if it might have contributed to his unfortunate release.  If there are lessons to be learned, then the story might benefit some.


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## DM-Rocco (Aug 25, 2008)

Stupid double posts


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## DM-Rocco (Aug 25, 2008)

catsclaw227 said:


> Actually I am sorta curious as well, not from a morbid, watching a train-wreck kinda curious, but more like an interest in what was causing all the controversy, and if it might have contributed to his unfortunate release.  If there are lessons to be learned, then the story might benefit some.




And I'm sure you too don't want to read through 3000 + posts either.

Hey, I see in you sig that you are converting the Age of Worms into 4e.  How is that going?  It seems like it would take a lot of work to convert.  It is not like converting 2e to 3e, which, er, isn't all that easy either, but slightly more so.  Well, you get the idea.


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## catsclaw227 (Aug 25, 2008)

DM-Rocco said:


> Hey, I see in you sig that you are converting the Age of Worms into 4e.  How is that going?  It seems like it would take a lot of work to convert.  It is not like converting 2e to 3e, which, er, isn't all that easy either, but slightly more so.  Well, you get the idea.




It's been work, but not that difficult.  I have had to adjust the levels of monsters and have made some of the encounters more spread out over multiple "rooms" but all in all it's coming along OK.

The tricky part has been the quick jump into 11th level PCs for the players (and me), keeping track of all the powers, ongoing effects, etc.   The players didn't get to play these PCs in 4e from 1st level, so suddenly dumping 11th level abilities on them has caused some slow-down in the game, but once we get the hang of it I am sure that it's get much easier.


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## Dragon Snack (Aug 25, 2008)

DM-Rocco said:


> ...this Mike fellow seemed to be the cause of a controversy and I just wanted to understand more.



I'll preface this by saying I haven't been to Gleemax in ages (other than to read a couple pages of the thread linked above - certainly not all of it) and it involves a friend...

G0 actually rubbed a lot of people the wrong way (as you can tell by the beginning of that thread), but everything came to a head when he asked for people's opinion on forum reorganization.  He then promptly ignored everyones input and instituted what were seemingly random changes.  They even went against some of his own 'rules' for reorganization - ie, if a forum got more than 50 posts a day it was to remain open, but yet the Character Optimization board was trashed (or was slated to be).  This caused a rift between G0 and Autumn, the VCL, so G0 fired Autumn (apparently the V in Volunteer Community Lead didn't stand for _volunteer_) and replaced her with someone who hadn't actually applied for the position (volunteer is such a pesky word).

So, between ignoring people's opinions on the board reorganization and deriding (he went so far as to publicly call her unprofessional) a long time community leader (Autumn was formerly WizO_Autumn), G0 seemed to many people to be actively working against his stated role as "Community Liason".  At the very least, his qualifications for a Public Relations position were questionable (even if you believe his hands were tied from above).

Again, I was not on gleemax and Autumn is a friend of mine, so maybe this is just a small subset of the firestorm he created (can I safely call a 3,000+ post thread a "firestorm"?).  I do know people had "unkind" knicknames for him even before this event.  Take it as you may...


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## fba827 (Aug 25, 2008)

I don't personally know any of the people at WotC, nor do I know any of the history or baggage associated with any of these decisions. I simply wanted to post to say: best of luck to those who have to make some changes now.  Hopefully everything will work out.


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## JahellTheBard (Aug 25, 2008)

I will miss your wise and kind words, Linae .

I'am sure you will find a good work soon ... you already proved to be very good at all you did ... 

In the meantime ... i will miss you ..


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## Chadarius (Aug 25, 2008)

*There has to be a reason for "realignment?*



Darrin Drader said:


> In my experience layoffs and reorgs usually either mean the company isn't hitting its target numbers or the company is undergoing a major change, such as a merger or a sale. I doubt WotC is getting sold (though hope spring eternal) or merged. With Hasbro, it isn't hard for a brand to not perform up to expectations. I have no clue what brands are ailing at the moment, but it will be interesting once we start hearing who gets cut.




After being in corporate American for the last 15 years, I'll agree that often its because of mergers and such. But just as often it happens for no reasonable or aparent reason. Sometimes management just reads a new book or goes to a seminar and rethinks their org chart, usually with the same terrible results as the last reorg. 

I think the realignment in this case is pretty obvious though. The online strategy is a failure. Unfortunately they think a realignment will fix it. I think it was dead on arrival and there is nothing that can be done to fix it. 

Which means that there will be yet another "realignment" at a later date to fix it again, and so on. Somewhere along the line I hope that Hasbro/Wizards figures out that they can't do technology and find or buy someone who can. Or just leave the tech up to the community. So far projects like PCGen or Kloogewerks and simple spreadsheets have been more than enough to satisfy me.


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## jinnetics (Aug 26, 2008)

Chadarius said:


> Which means that there will be yet another "realignment" at a later date to fix it again, and so on. Somewhere along the line I hope that Hasbro/Wizards figures out that they can't do technology and find or buy someone who can. Or just leave the tech up to the community. So far projects like PCGen or Kloogewerks and simple spreadsheets have been more than enough to satisfy me.




Hear, hear!


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## dmccoy1693 (Aug 26, 2008)

Chadarius said:


> Somewhere along the line I hope that Hasbro/Wizards figures out that they can't do technology and find or buy someone who can.




I remember reading that they have a partnership with EA or something like that.  I really don't understand why they don't use that for D&D.


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## catsclaw227 (Aug 26, 2008)

dmccoy1693 said:


> I remember reading that they have a partnership with EA or something like that.  I really don't understand why they don't use that for D&D.



This would be a great idea.


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## Varianor Abroad (Aug 27, 2008)

Chadarius said:


> After being in corporate American for the last 15 years, I'll agree that often its because of mergers and such. But just as often it happens for no reasonable or aparent reason.




IMO, this is due to some budgetary reason that is then translated into revenge upon anyone in the position of decision-making power wishes to exact upon anyone they can effect. The people that management like? They get to stay. (How they are "liked" can be reasons both good and bad.)


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## Elephant (Aug 27, 2008)

Henry said:


> For Now. That's what worries me about cutbacks like this - someone you think is pretty well entrenched there suddenly starts giving autoreplies like what Russ got from Linae.
> 
> Sad thing, too - Linae has been one of the best presences out there for putting a public face on WotC after the 2006 public relations debacle. My concern is we'll go right back to the people who actually interact with the fans just disappearing and the company going silent again like two years ago.




Could you elaborate on the 2006 PR debacle?  I was paying very little attention to the industry during that year, so I'm at a bit of a disadvantage here.


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## Shemeska (Aug 30, 2008)

More job openings posted on WotC in the last few days:

Database Developer  8/28/2008  
Program Manager - D&D  8/26/2008  
Software Architect - D&D  8/27/2008  
Technical Analyst  8/29/2008  
Sr. Software Development Lead  8/28/2008  


Those don't exactly strike me as positions that you fill when you're even remotely close to sending a product like the DDI to market. Those seem like things that you have in place before you start working on a product. Anyone else think that they're scrapping prior code and hitting the reboot switch on some of the DDI's major features? Not a good sign.


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## Scholar & Brutalman (Aug 30, 2008)

Shemeska said:


> Those don't exactly strike me as positions that you fill when you're even remotely close to sending a product like the DDI to market. Those seem like things that you have in place before you start working on a product. Anyone else think that they're scrapping prior code and hitting the reboot switch on some of the DDI's major features? Not a good sign.




Actually I could interpret that as a good sign. Given how successful Wizards software endeavours have been up till now, perhaps scrapping the lot is the best thing they can do.

It's firing Linae that looks like a bad sign to me, specifically wrt changes to the GSL. According to everyone who's dealt with her she is a pleasure to work with, which make's me wonder why she was let go. Paranoia: perhaps they don't need a licensing manager if they don't plan on having a license. Or maybe the internal fight over the GSL made her enemies.

 Of course, the layoffs may just be a result of the new WotC president wanting to make his mark. Presidents like to mark things, like cats.


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## Monkey Boy (Aug 30, 2008)

When did WOTC get a new president?

@ Elephant, I think the PR debacle of 2006 was when WOTC stopped talking to its fanbase. I could be wrong though.


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## Sammael (Aug 30, 2008)

Shemeska said:


> More job openings posted on WotC in the last few days:
> 
> Database Developer  8/28/2008
> Program Manager - D&D  8/26/2008
> ...



Being a Lead Developer with 8 years of practice in the industry... yes, the positions indicate that they are either starting a new project or rebooting an existing one. That's about one-half of the team I believe is needed to make DDI work (the other half being another Software Architect, two more developers, a web specialist, and several artists; if anyone is wondering why two Software Architects are needed - let's just say that large projects such as this one _require_ a second opinion).


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## Scholar & Brutalman (Aug 30, 2008)

Monkey Boy said:


> When did WOTC get a new president?




March. Greg Leeds replaced Loren Greenwood


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## Jack99 (Aug 30, 2008)

Shemeska said:


> More job openings posted on WotC in the last few days:
> 
> Database Developer  8/28/2008
> Program Manager - D&D  8/26/2008
> ...




Wouldn't you rather have a great product, which is significantly delayed, than a crappy product? I know I would. Of course, a reboot by no means that the end product will be great. However, there is a chance at least.


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## Papa-DRB (Aug 30, 2008)

Chadarius said:


> After being in corporate American for the last 15 years, I'll agree that often its because of mergers and such. But just as often it happens for no reasonable or apparent reason. Sometimes management just reads a new book or goes to a seminar and rethinks their org chart, usually with the same terrible results as the last reorg.




Oh how right you are! I have been in a multi-national corporation for 33+ years, and when some corporate executive gets his/her panties in a twist, or reads some new "cool" book, or hears a "wow" seminar, you can bet that it means jobs are lost at the peon level, either through "Resource Actions" (ie. layoffs), or jobs to India, Brazil, Argentina, etc.

Last year was the year of Lean, a manufacturing process. It translates very badly to Mainframe system support, but they did it anyway. Got rid of almost 30% of the folks through layoffs and transfers, bloody *BEFORE* the process was in place. *sigh* what a mess, but some corporate exec got a big bonus.


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## Imaro (Aug 30, 2008)

Jack99 said:


> Wouldn't you rather have a great product, which is significantly delayed, than a crappy product? I know I would. Of course, a reboot by no means that the end product will be great. However, there is a chance at least.





I just have to ask, what about option C.,  The one where WotC allows fans to create a electronic aids for the game?  I would be less irritated with the way it's being handled if...

A. WotC was open and honest about what's going on with DDI.  I mean every product has an advertisement for it, and the PHB has a blurb about it, but I don't think it's easy or intuitive on their website to find out what exactly is going on with it as of right now.

B.  WotC's 3e track record didn't exist as far as software/vaporware is concerned.  At least with 3e fans were allowed to develop and distribute their own software aids for D&D... as of right now, I believe, that's not allowed with 4e.  If I'm wrong, someone please correct me.

I feel like WotC has bet so much on DDI being successful, that they have lost sight of what is best for the fans as far as the game is concerned.  Now this wouldn't be an issue if DDI had been ready upon release of the 4e books, but it's not and WotC has decided to charge for a paired down version of what they offered, which doesn't contain the character generator (which I think could easily be done by the more code savy fans, and iis what most people really want.).


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## joethelawyer (Aug 30, 2008)

does anyone know if the new president greg leeds has ever even rolled a 20-sided die before he became president?  he sounds like your typical corporate do-it-by-the-numbers inside guy, brought in to roll some heads.


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## Jack99 (Aug 30, 2008)

Imaro said:


> I just have to ask, what about option C.,  The one where WotC allows fans to create a electronic aids for the game?  I would be less irritated with the way it's being handled if...
> 
> A. WotC was open and honest about what's going on with DDI.  I mean every product has an advertisement for it, and the PHB has a blurb about it, but I don't think it's easy or intuitive on their website to find out what exactly is going on with it as of right now.
> 
> ...



 Personally, I couldn't care less about parts of the DDI that are lacking. I get Dragon and Dungeon for less than 1/4 of what I payed before, and I do not even have to wait for a month to get them. And that is just about what I really wanted out of it. Some nifty online stuff wouldn't be bad, so to answer your question, I would be fine with WotC allowing whoever else to make said stuff. I doubt it would happen, but that is another matter altogether. 



joethelawyer said:


> does anyone know if the new president greg leeds has ever even rolled a 20-sided die before he became president?  he sounds like your typical corporate do-it-by-the-numbers inside guy, brought in to roll some heads.




What are you basing that on? Share the info please.


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## Imaro (Aug 30, 2008)

Jack99 said:


> Personally, I couldn't care less about parts of the DDI that are lacking. I get Dragon and Dungeon for less than 1/4 of what I payed before, and I do not even have to wait for a month to get them. And that is just about what I really wanted out of it. Some nifty online stuff wouldn't be bad, so to answer your question, I would be fine with WotC allowing whoever else to make said stuff. I doubt it would happen, but that is another matter altogether.




Sooo, you're not really talking about DDI as WotC first presented it, all you wanted were the magazines in PDF format.  Uhm, why use the " them taking longer to produce a high quality product" as a defense, it seems a little disingenuous... since you aren't interested in said product and could care less if it ever came out.  While others who may not care for a PDF magazine may be more interested in playing (you know the actual purpose of the game), and may only be able to do that online.


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## Jack99 (Aug 30, 2008)

Imaro said:


> Sooo, you're not really talking about DDI as WotC first presented it, all you wanted were the magazines in PDF format.  Uhm, why use the " them taking longer to produce a high quality product" as a defense, it seems a little disingenuous... since you aren't interested in said product and could care less if it ever came out.  While others who may not care for a PDF magazine may be more interested in playing (you know the actual purpose of the game), and may only be able to do that online.




And people accuse me of being harsh for no reason. >< 

Just because I do not care for a product, it doesn't mean I can not put myself in your (or someone else, who really wants/needs this product) shoes. After all, I think we have all wanted/needed a product at some point, which was delayed etc. It's hardly rocket science. So yes, while I do not need WotC to work any further on their DDI, I do hope they do, so they can give their customers the product they want and need. However, If I had been one of those customers, I would still have wanted them to take their time and hopefully (as we say in my gaming group, there is always 2% chance) get it right, instead of just hurrying up and giving us some crap.

But that is just me. YMMV OFC.

Cheers


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## joethelawyer (Aug 30, 2008)

Jack99 said:


> What are you basing that on? Share the info please.





double post. grr....


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## joethelawyer (Aug 30, 2008)

Jack99 said:


> What are you basing that on? Share the info please.





basing it on his resume of where he worked which he posted over on linkedin.com, the various businesses he has been involved in, the roles he has played in those businesses, and his actions on getting fast bottom line results in terms of firing people and cosing down unprofitable lines recently.  that and my own experiences tell me that he is bottom line oriented, rather than a visionary type of person.  which fits he strategic direction  i can deduce over at wotc:  getting bottom line results rather than creating something new and revolutionary. which in turn fits wotc's role as a small subsidiary of a huge multinational conglomerate.  so naturally i wonder if he has any experience playing dnd.  plus  i wuld guess that if this guy had any kind of personal background/experience with dnd or mtg, wotc would have touted that in their press release as a touchy feely selling point to the gaming community.


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## Charwoman Gene (Aug 30, 2008)

joethelawyer said:


> hat and my own experiences




I read this as "I'm just making this up because it reinforces my own preconceived notions"  YMMV.


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## joethelawyer (Aug 30, 2008)

Charwoman Gene said:


> I read this as "I'm just making this up because it reinforces my own preconceived notions"  YMMV.




isn't that what we all always do? take the raw data of our senses, run it through the filters of our life experiences, while trying to be as objective as we can, and come to conclusions?


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## Charwoman Gene (Aug 30, 2008)

joethelawyer said:


> isn't that what we all always do? take the raw data of our senses, run it through the filters of our life experiences, while trying to be as objective as we can, and come to conclusions?




Well, if by "be as objective as we can", you mean "distort meanings and invent motivations", and by "come to conclusions", you mean "promote D&D is D0OM3D!" style scare-mongering I'd agree that's what some people do.


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## jinnetics (Aug 30, 2008)

Varianor Abroad said:


> The people that management like? They get to stay.




Not to be snarky or anything, but that would seem to me to be the purpose of having management: someone to make those sorts of judgments.


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## joethelawyer (Aug 30, 2008)

Charwoman Gene said:


> Well, if by "be as objective as we can", you mean "distort meanings and invent motivations", and by "come to conclusions", you mean "promote D&D is D0OM3D!" style scare-mongering I'd agree that's what some people do.




and thats your filter.  and thats ok.


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## Jack99 (Aug 30, 2008)

joethelawyer said:


> basing it on his resume of where he worked which he posted over on linkedin.com, the various businesses he has been involved in, the roles he has played in those businesses, and his actions on getting fast bottom line results in terms of firing people and cosing down unprofitable lines recently.  that and my own experiences tell me that he is bottom line oriented, rather than a visionary type of person.  which fits he strategic direction  i can deduce over at wotc:  getting bottom line results rather than creating something new and revolutionary. which in turn fits wotc's role as a small subsidiary of a huge multinational conglomerate.  so naturally i wonder if he has any experience playing dnd.  plus  i wuld guess that if this guy had any kind of personal background/experience with dnd or mtg, wotc would have touted that in their press release as a touchy feely selling point to the gaming community.




In my experience, a company is often better off having a "bottom line boss", as long as he leaves the creative thinking to the people actually hired to do just that. I do not want a WotC boss who spends his time considering class balance or thinking up how he can please all the gnome fans (yeah, all 5 of them ), Instead I want one that makes sure there is enough money to actually hire the talent, not just this year, but also the next year. Of course, you obviously see things differently. To each his own.

Cheers


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## El Mahdi (Aug 30, 2008)

Papa-DRB said:


> Oh how right you are! I have been in a multi-national corporation for 33+ years, and when some corporate executive gets his/her panties in a twist, or reads some new "cool" book, or hears a "wow" seminar, you can bet that it means jobs are lost at the peon level, either through "Resource Actions" (ie. layoffs), or jobs to India, Brazil, Argentina, etc.
> 
> Last year was the year of Lean, a manufacturing process. It translates very badly to Mainframe system support, but they did it anyway. Got rid of almost 30% of the folks through layoffs and transfers, bloody *BEFORE* the process was in place. *sigh* what a mess, but some corporate exec got a big bonus.




It's not even restricted to the corporate world.  When I retired from the Air Force a year ago, they were attempting to incorporate LEAN concepts into Air Force operations and systems.  10 to 12 years ago it was the "Quality" initiative (Quality Air Force).  I'm sure someone or someone(s) got their promotions to full bird Colonel and General because of these.


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## joethelawyer (Aug 30, 2008)

Jack99 said:


> In my experience, a company is often better off having a "bottom line boss", as long as he leaves the creative thinking to the people actually hired to do just that. I do not want a WotC boss who spends his time considering class balance or thinking up how he can please all the gnome fans (yeah, all 5 of them ), Instead I want one that makes sure there is enough money to actually hire the talent, not just this year, but also the next year. Of course, you obviously see things differently. To each his own.
> 
> Cheers




i agree with you on the bottom line as a necessity.  but i wish wotc had sort of a steve jobs type visionary at the helm.  someone who had big ideas and thinks his products are "cool".  who take a hand in guiing development  based on his vision.  who pays attention to the product details as well as the big picture and bottom line, like jobs.  and ultimately i wish wotc was its own company with a person at its head who could make these sorts of decisions without regard to the parent company's bottom line.  if big daddy has a bad year, junior has to slash costs/people to do its share to make up for it.  

i see this guy leeds has a marketing background.  that means branding.  i have been thinking about the relationship between branding and hobbies lately.  i wonder if the branding concept works the same for hobbies as say branding and bandaids, for example.  i mean, you buy tylenol for the brand, even though the pharmacy has a pill with the exact same ingredients at half the price.  you just want that tylenol brand.  same for a lot of things.  you pay for the name.

marketing has been all about branding branding branding in recent years.  that's all you hear about and read about in business journals. meaning the value of a thing isn't necesaarily the component ingedients of it, but the name recognition and the associated feelings that name brings up in consumers who make a purchase based on those feelings.  the value is subjective.

so when i see a marketing guy brought in, i immediately think he is going to be brand focused, rather than focused on the ingredients.  i looked back at al the news articles he had been quoted in throughout his career on the nexis news databases, and he always mentions brand brand brand.  and i think for samsonite or gi joe toys that works fine.  but for hobbies in general, and dnd in particular, i think the details of the product are the crucial comonents of sucess.  

i hope 4e succeeds.  because even though its not my cup of tea, it will draw in new gamers, and that is what this hobby needs more than anything else. those new gamers will then be exposed to other systems, and maybe try them out, keeping the other lines going along, thus keeping my favorite systems in business (castles & crusades and pathfinder).  

i guess i just have concerns if the guy in charge is all about the branding aspect and the bottom line, and not the nitty gritty of the product.  i wonder if he has a big picture vision. or if he is going to regurgitate what the standard jargon and plans h learned in mba school.  


that why i asked in my original post if he has a background in dnd.  i want to know what perspective he operates from.


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## Charwoman Gene (Aug 30, 2008)

joethelawyer said:


> but i wish wotc had sort of a steve jobs type visionary at the helm.
> ...branding branding branding...




Re:  "D&D Steve Jobs"

Critically needed.  But someone would have to basically be like a gamer who has a massive windfall to spend on an investment that could massively lose money.  Buying a "brand" from Hasbro will prove problematic.  I agree that it is exactly what D&D needs.  I know I'd try to do that if that much money fell on me.

Branding has been a psycho-religion at WotC since before they bought TSR.  Peter Adkison, was all crazy about branding.


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## Varianor Abroad (Aug 31, 2008)

jinnetics said:


> Not to be snarky or anything, but that would seem to me to be the purpose of having management: someone to make those sorts of judgments.




Yes. However, how objective are they? Have you ever been denied a promotion and seen a superior's favorite employee get a raise, an office and have nothing to do? Then while you're killing yourself for results, said favorite botches things that would get you on warning or fired and there are no repercussions of any sort? 

That's Corporate America! There's at least 30% common sense in there _somewhere_.


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## Varianor Abroad (Aug 31, 2008)

Charwoman Gene said:


> I read this as "I'm just making this up because it reinforces my own preconceived notions"  YMMV.




Wait. He referenced a lot of other valid points. I recognize the attack method - pick out one thing that's arguably wrong (or at least harder to defend) and go after it - but I think the rest of the research is important and relevant.


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## Eridanis (Aug 31, 2008)

Remember to keep it civil, folks.


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## joethelawyer (Aug 31, 2008)

Varianor Abroad said:


> Wait. He referenced a lot of other valid points. I recognize the attack method - pick out one thing that's arguably wrong (or at least harder to defend) and go after it - but I think the rest of the research is important and relevant.





you forgot to mention brilliant, insightful, and pure genius.


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