# When will my group ever accept me?



## Raven Wintervale (Sep 28, 2005)

My group doesn't really accept me for the most part. I'm the newest member in a six member, all girl group of gamers. The DM, my friend and classmate, brought me into the group about a year ago. Now I've only started playing the last year and a half of High School so I have the least amount of experience but still, I've constantly had to put up with comments like "noob" or "normie" and the like. 

The comments got worse when they found out I hadn't told my boyfriend or roommate that I play RPGs and had no plans to. After that one of the girls kept calling me "the face" or "nerdabee"(the meaning of which I still not sure of). Now I know some of you will probably say I should find a new group but frankly for the most part I don't want a new group. Despite all the name calling I actually like them. Also the girl with the biggest problem with me, the one who does most of the name calling (okay I don't really like her either) is the one who's place we all game at. 

Now our DM has had a few talks with her and she has stopped for the most part. But I can still tell she doesn't think that I belong there and I know some of the other girls share that feeling (although they are nowhere near as rude about). They think that I'm just playing because I was roped into it or something. How can I convince them that I really am into to role-playing and that they shouldn't think otherwise just because I don't fit into their definition of a girl gamer?


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## Crothian (Sep 28, 2005)

I suggest becomeing a better player.  Know the rules really well, not just those that concern you.  Become a better role playing, or tactical player depending on what style of game your group plays.  Become more invbolved in the game, ask question away from the gaming table through e-mail and just become more attentive.  

I've been in your shoes and it can be tough.  I worked harder then everyone else and really helped shape the game in ways the benifited everyone.


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## smootrk (Sep 28, 2005)

Sounds like everyone needs to learn a bit about the game, not just you.  Playing RPG's is a social event, and they don't sound very social.  Like most groups (not just roleplay groups), it takes a while to fit in, regardless of your knowledge level.

BTW... what kind of games does an all girl group run?


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## Raven Wintervale (Sep 28, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> I suggest becomeing a better player.  Know the rules really well, not just those that concern you.  Become a better role playing, or tactical player depending on what style of game your group plays.  Become more invbolved in the game, ask question away from the gaming table through e-mail and just become more attentive.
> 
> I've been in your shoes and it can be tough.  I worked harder then everyone else and really helped shape the game in ways the benifited everyone.




I've been trying to do that. I've tagged all the important sections in my player's handbook and for my newest PC,  I've even written out my spells on index cards for quick reference and to help me plan out my spell casting order in combat. I don't think that the group has problems with my playing, more with what I do when I not with the group, if that makes any sense.


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## Raven Wintervale (Sep 28, 2005)

smootrk said:
			
		

> Sounds like everyone needs to learn a bit about the game, not just you.  Playing RPG's is a social event, and they don't sound very social.  Like most groups (not just roleplay groups), it takes a while to fit in, regardless of your knowledge level.
> 
> BTW... what kind of games does an all girl group run?




Well some of the girls are very social, while others... I don't want to use any offensive terms but most of them were the type of people I wouldn't have been caught dead with back when I was in High School. For the most part we really don't socialize with each other outside of gaming. Our DM has us try to do things outside of gaming as group but those are few a far between.

As to your question. We done some Vampire LARP (started to get a little too weird so we stopped) Ravenloft, Legends of the Five Rings and Witchcraft. As for the type of adventures it's usually a mix of story based adventures or hack and slash adventures.


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## Anax (Sep 29, 2005)

It sounds to me like your group has issues.  (I take "nerdabee" to be "nerd wannabe".)

I think you'll mainly have to grin and bear it, or if it becomes un-fun to play any more, look for a new group.  (Though this one sounds pretty unique!)

I have to say that this sort of cliquishness is just as reprehensible from the side of the more traditional "social outcasts" as it is from the debutantes.  (Hooray for geek pride and all, but Jesus, they should get a grip.)  If you just deal with it and keep playing, I have to hope they'll realise that you really do like playing, and back off.  (Especially as it seems your DM has got things straight.)

In the end, it's all about having fun, of course.  So--don't stress about it, and just do your thing.


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## Crothian (Sep 29, 2005)

Raven Wintervale said:
			
		

> I've been trying to do that. I've tagged all the important sections in my player's handbook and for my newest PC,  I've even written out my spells on index cards for quick reference and to help me plan out my spell casting order in combat. I don't think that the group has problems with my playing, more with what I do when I not with the group, if that makes any sense.




Ya, that does make sense.  This will depend on how you usually handle things.  You can just treat your social life as none of their concern.  Or you can put your social life in their face and bascially confronty them on it and challenge them when they complain or make comments about it.  Lots of times when people are confronted like this they back of.   

One qwuestion though, is there a reason why you are keeping your gaming secret?


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## Tewligan (Sep 29, 2005)

smootrk said:
			
		

> BTW... what kind of games does an all girl group run?



Really SEXY ones.


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## smootrk (Sep 29, 2005)

Tewligan said:
			
		

> Really SEXY ones.



That was on my mind, but I opted to be a little more subtle.


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## DonTadow (Sep 29, 2005)

This is an odd topic because something simliar has happened in my group, and I was just wondering about it today.  I have four women in my campaign, the newest woman joined a month ago.  The one woman seems ok with her being there but the other two have trained their characters to be aweful catty with her in game and in our ICC chat forum.  The three of us guys kinda sit back when the claw fest begins. As DM, I've talked to the players about their behavior to her but they have "assured me" that it is the way their characters would handle the situation.  

The woman's pretty much in your situation, trying to figure out how to fit in more with the group.  Just being an observer, I always say kill them with kindness so that they look like hte idiots.  In game and out of game. 

The woman started bringing cookies and cheesecakes to game, how silly did hte other women look making snibe comments muching on her oatmeal raisins.


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## Raven Wintervale (Sep 29, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> One question though, is there a reason why you are keeping your gaming secret?




A fair question. I guess it's that most of my friends wouldn't understand it, somemight even  cut ties with me. Some of these people I've been friends with for a very long time. I can understand if they're mad if they think i'm ashamed of them or something (which I'm not). But I don't think it's that, often they're comments about the way I dress or things I like to do.


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## Raven Wintervale (Sep 29, 2005)

smootrk said:
			
		

> That was on my mind, but I opted to be a little more subtle.




Guys can be so childish sometimes!   Although I sure you'd have like sitting in on a few of our Vampire LARPs


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## smootrk (Sep 29, 2005)

Raven Wintervale said:
			
		

> Guys can be so childish sometimes!   Although I sure you'd have like sitting in on a few of our Vampire LARPs



That was also on my mind!


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## Jonas Grumby (Sep 29, 2005)

smootrk said:
			
		

> That was on my mind, but I opted to be a little more subtle.




So you decided to pass on the "*strip down to bra & panties for a tickle fight*" reference?


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## Raven Wintervale (Sep 29, 2005)

Anax said:
			
		

> It sounds to me like your group has issues.  (I take "nerdabee" to be "nerd wannabe".)
> 
> I think you'll mainly have to grin and bear it, or if it becomes un-fun to play any more, look for a new group.  (Though this one sounds pretty unique!)
> 
> ...




Maybe Anax is right. Maybe this is my karma for all the people I used to make fun of back in high school, before I found out my boyfriend was a gamer. So maybe I should put up with it.


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## Lady_Acoma (Sep 29, 2005)

You know it sounds like an interesting group and all and your DM sounds good but I still don't see the problem with finding another group possibly through like RPGA events or seeing if anyone around here is in your area.  I would think that maybe your reason for not finding another group is that you are afraid your other friends will find out, if that is such a big deal to you, don't worry so much, I doubt they hang out on some of the same levels as gamers do in general.  I also think that possibly you aren't giving your other friend's enough credit.  They may open their minds when they find that one of their best friends enjoys the game and re-evaluate it.  But I don't know them so I may be very wrong.  Either way enjoy your gaming and you will always get more from it.


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Sep 29, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> I've been in your shoes and it can be tough.  I worked harder then everyone else and really helped shape the game in ways the benefited everyone.




*points and laughs*  Crothian wears girl shoes!  


If I were in your situation, I wouldn't be so closeted about it.  You don't need to be like loud and super-gamer about it... just don't deny it.  When someone asks you what your hobbies are, feel comfortable saying "games".  Don't need to go get a d20 tattoo or anything, just be comfortable with it.  

Crothian's point about knowing the rules is an important one.  I think nearly every gamer (but girl gamers in particular) have to deal with.  There's always some mocking and questioning, but if you can roll your Turn Undead check without flipping to page 159 of the PHB - you'll be helping your friends pull their collective feet our of their collective mouths.


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## Rel (Sep 29, 2005)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> Crothian's point about knowing the rules is an important one.  I think nearly every gamer (but girl gamers in particular) have to deal with.  There's always some mocking and questioning, but if you can roll your Turn Undead check without flipping to page 159 of the PHB - you'll be helping your friends pull their collective feet our of their collective mouths.




Queen D know of what she speaks.  She's got a better grasp of the rules than several of my male players and she's a hell of a lot cuter.


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Sep 29, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> Queen D know of what she speaks.  She's got a better grasp of the rules than several of my male players and she's a hell of a lot cuter.



 *grin*  I'm smart AND cute!  It's a good combination - that's how I got to be the most popular girl on the internet.


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## Lady_Acoma (Sep 29, 2005)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> *grin*  I'm smart AND cute!  It's a good combination - that's how I got to be the most popular girl on the internet.



Not at all big headed either...


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Sep 29, 2005)

Lady_Acoma said:
			
		

> Not at all big headed either...



 *shoves her ego behind her back*  I don't know what you're talking about!


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## Mystery Man (Sep 29, 2005)

Maybe you all just need a good cry.


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## Joël of the FoS (Sep 29, 2005)

Well, as other people said, if you enjoy the games, stay. If not, leave as you will only get bitterness out of it.

I'd also talk to the annoying girl and tell her that you'd like her to get off your back as you're here for fun, as all the others do. Ask your DM to be part of this discussion too - you need support in this from the highest level in your team.

Joël


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## Umbran (Sep 29, 2005)

Somehow, it is comforting to see that this sort of typical primate behavior affects everyone just about equally.  

It is somewhat less comforting that we just don't learn.  

There's the strong temptation to suggest you get a moderately powerful paintball gun and shoot her with it every time she makes one of these wisecracks.  It might or might not stop her, but it'd be satisfying.  

Yes, it'd be satisfying.  I'm a monkey too


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## Thornir Alekeg (Sep 29, 2005)

Ahh, one of the more unique aspects of gaming: taking people that never would hang out together socially, and putting them into a social situation.  

All I can say is, talk to the players in your group.  Try not to be confrontational about it, just ask if they think you have done something to offend them, and let them know that you enjoy gaming with them, but the personal attacks bother you.  

If they persist, then I would seriously ask myself if gaming with them is so good that you think it is worth the personal suffering.  You may think you can handle them putting you down repeatedly, but it will affect you, and probably not in positive ways.  



			
				Raven Wintervale said:
			
		

> Maybe this is my karma for all the people all used to make fun of back in high school, before I found out my boyfriend was a gamer. So maybe I should put up with it.



Sorry, but this sounds similar to words I've heard from women with boyfriends/husbands who abused them.  Don't ever think you deserve to be treated poorly.


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## UniversalMonster (Sep 29, 2005)

Nerdabee is ouch. That seems a bit hurtful. 

In another thread you are thinking about trying out the DM job, which I applaud. 

I would form a new group if I wanted to continue gaming, but I didn't want the trouble of these girls. There will probably be some Napoleon Dynamite character around who will want to join, anyhow. 

But like in Mean Girls, maybe there is a value in toughing it out- not like I'd know anything about the dynamic of an all female high school D&D group. 

Whatever you decide, there's always Enworld!


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## Shallown (Sep 29, 2005)

This like many things has to be wieghed out in your mind. Just ask yourself if it is worth it to play. Sounds like your having fun except for this one point but sometimes that one pointcan be enough to ruin the rest of the fun. Some people seem to think gaming should be all fun all the time. So far no hobby is like that but is the fun worth the hassle.

Also remember you are responsible only for the way you act and not the way other people do. In every aspect of life you will meet *Difficult* people

And last but not least you teach people how to treat you. If you allow people to use you or abuse you. They learn that this is acceptable behaviour. So to address this specific event simple look them in the eye, without anger or meanness and maybe even with a please and say " I don't appreciate being called that" say it each and everytime. Eventually the point will get across and either they will quit or switch to another tactic depending on how *Difficlut* they are.

Later and good luck




PS

*Difficult* meaning people who are nasty words we don't use here at enworld but some of those words start with an A, Some with a B, and some even with a C when they are really difficult.


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## Raven Wintervale (Sep 29, 2005)

Wow! I'm amazed by the outpouring of advice, suggestions and just palin honest to goodness support, I've gotten on this thread. I mean you people don't even know me yet, you've all pitched in with support. Thank you so much!  

I've thought a lot about it I think i'll just confront her with it. I know our DM and a few of the other players will support me, so I'll just lay it on the line and tell her off. I don't want to have to leave the group but many of you are right, if I'm not having fun there then what's the point. Maybe the DM and I can talk a couple of the other player (the ones who've stopped giving me a hard time) and form a smaller group which mean we could play somewhere else. 

Thanks again for all your help


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## Crothian (Sep 29, 2005)

WEll, best of luck with this and don't forget to tell us how it goes please.


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## Rel (Sep 29, 2005)

Raven Wintervale said:
			
		

> Wow! I'm amazed by the outpouring of advice, suggestions and just palin honest to goodness support, I've gotten on this thread. I mean you people don't even know me yet, you've all pitched in with support. Thank you so much!




ENWorld is pretty much like this every day of the week.  Welcome and enjoy.


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## Blue_Kryptonite (Sep 29, 2005)

Raven Wintervale said:
			
		

> A fair question. I guess it's that most of my friends wouldn't understand it, somemight even  cut ties with me.




In my opinion, if they would cut ties with you over an activity for which the requisite materials can be purchased in a toy store, they're not really very good friends. 

Example: "I don't tell my friends I like <THING> because they would dump me."

THING: A) Gaming. B) Football. C) Horses. D) Skateboarding. E) Watching old TV shows on DVD.

If they would dump you because they don't understand what you're doing, that's the definition of a shallow relationship, not a true friendship.


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## was (Sep 29, 2005)

-The newest member of any group will always be considered the noob until someone else joins and the title is passed down.  As long as the title is used as an informal joke among group members and not maliciously, it may just be something you have to bear with until someone else joins the group.
-Role players and other gamers, in the U.S. at least, have traditionally been stigmatized by others as 'nerdy' or 'satanic'.  These ascribed stereotypes often form stronger bonds among gamers in an attempt to rebuff negative attention.  Your fellow gamers probably assume that by not telling your boyfriend about your hobby, you are, at least in some small part, ashamed of your participation in this hobby.  They probably feel that you don't really enjoy it or want to be there with them.  It would be like having a friend that you didn't want to be seen with in public. 
-I'd suggest talking with the group and expressing your fears to them directly.  Ask them for advice in dealing with any negative attention that you might receive.  They might offer helpful advice.  Additionally, it should bring you closer to the group.
-I'd also give your boyfriend the benefit of the doubt.  He could be okay with it.  After all, if you're spending a lot of your free time gaming with an all girl group, you're not out seeing other guys.  Finally, if anyone doesn't want to hang around with you just because you like this particular hobby, they aren't, at least in my opinion, worth the effort of mainaining any sort of relationship/friendship.


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## Gnome (Sep 29, 2005)

I agree with was; the fact that you don't want to tell your boyfriend may make some of them feel like you don't want it to me known that you associate with the likes of them.  Based on what you've written here, I'm sure that's not the case, but I could see feeling like that if I were in their shoes.

Good luck!


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## Desdichado (Sep 29, 2005)

Raven Wintervale said:
			
		

> We done some Vampire LARP (started to get a little too weird so we stopped)



Does anyone besides me want to hear more about that?    

What?


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## Rel (Sep 29, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> Does anyone besides me want to hear more about that?
> 
> What?




You're a bad man, Joshua Dyal.  Perhaps as bad as me.


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## Desdichado (Sep 29, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> You're a bad man, Joshua Dyal.  Perhaps as bad as me.



Yeah, but I can't quite live up to your level of infamy.  Although I'll be meeting reveal at the upcoming Chicago gameday, I don't think I can stoop to making him hold my buttocks.


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## Rel (Sep 29, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> I don't think I can stoop to making him hold my buttocks.




Don't stoop then.  I bet he'd be able to reach them better if you were standing straight up.


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## Desdichado (Sep 29, 2005)

Hmmmm.... words of wisdom.

Then again, maybe we're both equally bad for cluttering up an advice thread with our flirting.


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## sniffles (Sep 29, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> Hmmmm.... words of wisdom.
> 
> Then again, maybe we're both equally bad for cluttering up an advice thread with our flirting.




Joshua Dyal is flirting with reveal?!!   


More seriously, Raven, I have to agree with Blue Kryptonite's assessment that friends who would drop you for gaming are not true friends. You don't have to tell other people what you do with your free time, but you shouldn't be ashamed or afraid to tell them if you want to. Genuine friends will respect you for who you are.


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## Desdichado (Sep 30, 2005)

sniffles said:
			
		

> Joshua Dyal is flirting with reveal?!!



No, no, no; I'm flirting with Rel!


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## Darth K'Trava (Sep 30, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> You're a bad man, Joshua Dyal.  Perhaps as bad as me.




He's been around Reveal too much.   Now *that's* a bad man!   (I know he'll take that as a compliment....)


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## Anax (Sep 30, 2005)

Raven Wintervale said:
			
		

> Maybe Anax is right. Maybe this is my karma for all the people I used to make fun of back in high school, before I found out my boyfriend was a gamer. So maybe I should put up with it.




Eek!  Well, that's not quite how I meant it.    People are brats in high school, there's no doubt.  Once past that stage, though, you kind of expect folks to be more mature about things.

But regardless of all that, a D&D game is a place where that kind of thing *really* shouldn't matter.  You're all there to have fun, doing something you enjoy doing.  And you *know* you all have that in common.  Sure, not everybody will get along, and not everybody has the same idea of what's fun about the game... but still.

Anyway, best of luck!


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## Acquana (Sep 30, 2005)

*Bitter and Jaded*

I'm really sorry to hear things aren't as good as they could be ...  I hate to admit I can probably empathize with the girls you're with, but that's because I'm horribly bitter and jaded.  And speaking from the point of view of such, it's fairly obvious the worst in question had to deal with a lot of crap at some point or another in her life.  If after this amount of time around you she's still doing giving you hassle, then you must remind her a lot of someone that hurt her.  (Now remember, that's just a theory, but one from experience)

The one thing I note is that you consider this just a hobby.  And a lot of people don't.  This may be a serious social thing, a vent for an otherwise shy group of girls.  It's not something some people do with surface friends.  Not that it's a problem with _you,_ just that it's a problem with doing something they think is done with people they trust more ... with someone they, well ... don't.  

Thus "keeping it a secret" may be a bit of an insult.  Even though you've made it clear it's nothing of the sort, that just may be how a few of them see it--that you don't appreciate their company enough to become better friends than just roleplaying once a week or something.

If you want my honest advice ... and I know it's kinda hard to do ... don't just talk to the rude girl on the level of handling a problem with some chick you know, handle her like a friend.  Remind her you're nothing like the people who (probably) hurt her, try to find out what the real issue is, and show her that she needs to be as willing to accept different people as you are.  

If you're not up for being honest friends with them, then maybe a new, more casual group is in order.  Again, it's just my hypothesis.  Good luck, and remember that no one has the right to punish you for something you didn't do to them.


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## stevelabny (Sep 30, 2005)

Nerdabee? Heh.

If I was in your group, I would not only mock you by calling you a wannabe, I would outright refuse to play with you unless you changed. 

A few other responses got to the heart of it, but didn't call you out on it.

If you are too ashamed to admit to "normies"  (muggles? mundanes?) that you game... you are indirectly saying that you are ashamed of these girls as friends. That is beyond RUDE. 

Sure you're talking a good game, trying to learn the rules and insisting you want to play with them, but since you are ashamed of the game and the girls, it rings completely hollow.

I've rallied against closet-gaming  on EN World a few times, but this actually does a great deal to explain why. If you're embarassed to admit that you hang out with me, I DON'T WANT TO HANG OUT WITH YOU. 

The "annoying" geek girl is  guessing that if you lie to your boyfriend about who you are, you could very well be lying to her also. Why should she trust you? 

You also said that these are the girls you "used to" not want to be caught dead with, and you used to pick on geeks yourself. (did you ever pick on these girls specifically? that could also explain their problem with you) 

This is something I wouldn't admit to gamers. That's the equivalent of telling a gay person that you used to gaybash or a black person that you used to be in the KKK. If you have truly overcome your geek-bashing, there is no need to rub it in the face of those you used to hurt.

And finally, while sometimes gaming groups don't hang out with each other away from the table because of schedules or families or other valid reasons,  if you don't hang out with each other outside of the game because you don't like each other and have absolutely nothing else in common... you shouldn't be gaming with each other. Period.  Gaming IS social, and if you don't like each other, you can't game together.

I'm shocked and appalled at how easy the other posters have been on you. 

You requested advice and while this reply might seem a bit rough, its honest and probably along the lines of what the girl calling you a nerdabee is thinking.


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## Thornir Alekeg (Sep 30, 2005)

stevelabny said:
			
		

> Nerdabee? Heh.
> 
> If I was in your group, I would not only mock you by calling you a wannabe, I would outright refuse to play with you unless you changed.
> 
> ...




And after reading this post, I know who I would outright refuse to game with, but the feeling likely would be mutual so no loss there.  

I game with people with whom I have nothing else in common, so I don't hang out with them outside the game.  Same goes for people I work with.  Work is also a social activity, do you refuse to work with people you are not friends with?  

And not everyone is comfortable talking about gaming - many people don't understand it and ask annoying questions or make assumptions about you because of it.  I don't think she should be hiding it from her boyfriend, but she also should not feel like she is less of a gamer if she doesn't trumpet it from the rooftops.


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## Acquana (Sep 30, 2005)

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> And after reading this post, I know who I would outright refuse to game with, but the feeling likely would be mutual so no loss there.




Yeah, no kidding.  



			
				stevelabny said:
			
		

> I'm shocked and appalled at how easy the other posters have been on you.




And I'm wholly unsurprised that someone showed up to prove my point.  

Stevelabny, seriously, don't be so harsh on her.  To Raven Wintervale's defense, she's trying out new things and just wants to enjoy a hobby!  After all, the main thing a lot of roleplayers say when confronted is "So what?  It's just a game."  So there ya go!  It's a game.  It means more to some people, but it not having to be a deep, personal thing isn't a _bad_ thing for heaven's sake.

So it's just a hobby to some people rather than some kind of defining point to their personality.  That shouldn't be a big deal.  Certainly not to someone who hasn't met her and probably never will ...


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## Aus_Snow (Sep 30, 2005)

stevelabny said:
			
		

> *snip*



Filtered for content.


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## Pbartender (Sep 30, 2005)

You know, you may scoff about it, but Steve's got a very good point.

I mean really, didn't you guys ever watch any of those 1980's brat-pack movies?  If not, go rent and watch a few of them...  epsecially Pretty in Pink, 18 Candles and The Goonies.  Then, go watch Heathers.

Look, Raven, you're a cool kid...  Or at least you were at one point, right?    Now, you've surrounded yourself with the very people you use to publicaly look down on.  You admit it yourself.  What's more, you refuse to publicly announce to the people closest to you the thing you share with these people that very nearly defines them as a social group.  In their eyes, you're reaping all the benifits of being a geek, without sharing in the disadvantages that the other geeks can't avoid (as easily).

The girl that's picking on you believes she's got the moral high ground.  She's been picked on all her life by people just like you, and now she's got a cool kid at her mercy.  In this particular walf pack, she's asserting her position of dominance over you.  It a petty form of vengeance and retaliation on a surrogate who represents all of her previous tormenters.  The only way to get her to stop is to stand up to her, and establish your place in the pack.  Call her out privately, telling her flat out to knock it off and that she's being just as big an ass as every jerk who's picked on her.  If that doesn't work, do it again, publicly.

Also, here's a little article entitled 5 Geek Social Fallacies.  Read it.  It might give you some insight into the minds of these girls.

EDIT:  I also just noticed this:



			
				Raven Wintervale said:
			
		

> The comments got worse when they found out I hadn't told my boyfriend or roommate that I play RPGs and had no plans to.






			
				Raven Wintervale said:
			
		

> ...before I found out my boyfriend was a gamer.




So...  Your boyfriend plays roleplaying games, but for some reason you don't want to tell him that you do too?  Explain this to me.  It makes no sense no matter how I look at it.


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## Desdichado (Sep 30, 2005)

Yeah, but that can go both ways.  There _may_ be good reasons why she doesn't want to tell people she plays.  Maybe her parents bought into a lot of the D&D = Satanic crap, or maybe a bunch of other associates did.

Heck, I'm not _exactly_ wide open about my gaming, and I think that's common for gamers of my generation.  Giving Raven grief because she's not "fightin' the power" seems pretty darn inappropriate.  At best.


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## stevelabny (Sep 30, 2005)

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> Work is also a social activity, do you refuse to work with people you are not friends with?




Actually, I tend to be the friendly talkative guy at work. I DO try to be friends, or at least friendly,  with the people I work with. I will always try to find out what I have in common with someone. 

But if there is someone I actively DISLIKE to the extent of not wanting to be in the same room with them? Usually encouraging them to quit or trying to get them fired works.  Obviously, it depends on where you work and what level of pull you have. If you're a new employee you're pretty much forced to shut up and ignore the person. 

But usually if you TRY to be friendly most people are actually decent on some level, and I'm well-rounded enough to be able to talk about almost anything, so its rarely been a problem.



			
				Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> many people don't understand it and ask annoying questions or make assumptions about you because of it. I don't think she should be hiding it from her boyfriend, but she also should not feel like she is less of a gamer if she doesn't trumpet it from the rooftops.




Yeah, I've gotten this other times I tell people not to closet-game. Telling your significant other is definitely not trumpeting it from the rooftops.  Keeping secrets like this from your SO is NOT healthy.

And if you think that talking about your hobbies to other people (family, co-workers, etc) is trumpeting from the rooftops, well, that just means your natural instinct is to hide stuff about yourself. Which either means you're ashamed too or that YOU are making assumptions that other people will not be able to understand it or be rude to you because of it.







			
				Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> many people don't understand it and ask annoying questions or make assumptions about you because of it



Guess so. Even if you've had the problem before, please give every new person the benefit of the doubt. As cynical as I am, I still think most people are decent. Many are just misinformed. They can still be enlightened. 
(amazing, how a cynic like me who thinks a good number of people are too stupid to live, and even more than that are too stupid to breed, still somehow has more faith than most that the next person I meet won't be a total moron)



			
				Acquana said:
			
		

> Stevelabny, seriously, don't be so harsh on her.  To Raven Wintervale's defense, she's trying out new things and just wants to enjoy a hobby!




I already explained the harshness. It was requested advice, and even if you don't agree with it, at the very least it explains how the girl causing her problems is probably thinking. 



			
				Acquana said:
			
		

> After all, the main thing a lot of roleplayers say when confronted is "So what?  It's just a game."  So there ya go!  It's a game.  It means more to some people, but it not having to be a deep, personal thing isn't a _bad_ thing for heaven's sake. So it's just a hobby to some people rather than some kind of defining point to their personality.  That shouldn't be a big deal.  Certainly not to someone who hasn't met her and probably never will ...




Hmm I don't get this. ANY hobby is a part of your personality. Your personality is... personal. If everybody is so flippant about what they do, why bother doing it regularly?
It obviously matters to you on some level. 

I find that 99% of the time when someone posts a thread and talks about a problem with a person who can't present their own side to the story, the replies automatically identify with the poster and assume the poster is in the right. 

I don't consider myself a hardcore gamer. I game "weekly" which of course usually means twice a month. Its probably about third or fourth on my depth chart of hobbies. 

But I don't let people tell me that any of my hobbies are for losers or little kids. I correct people when they make misinformed opinions about things I like to do. Much like posters told Raven not to take the insults the other girl, me and the other girl are refusing to take the insult from Raven.

She doesn't seem to realize that what she's doing is insulting. She's no longer being mean on purpose. That's great, maybe now that she sees it from the other side, and how her actions are insulting, she will fix the problem on her end. 
Then it will fall into the other girl's lap to see if she softens too.

And I'm not making a big deal. I'm gonna go to bed soon, and I'll check the thread when I wake up, and keep tabs until it dies (as I have a hunch I might need to make a few more replies), and maybe tell my friends about it for some laughs. I'll go see Serenity again, catch up on some TV, root on my fantasy sports teams, watch Yanks-Sox, watch some football on sunday, maybe play some d&d in the middle, and never think about about the thread during any of those activites, or after it fades away.
Why is it that whenever someone types more than a paragraph in disagreement, they are "making a big deal"?

PBartender... thanks for saying I have a point, but I think you run off on the same incorrect idea that this other girl is being petty and vengeful. I dont think its a case of "You picked one me, so now I pick on you",  I think its more like "You picked on me publicly, now you pick on me silently, go away"  

I really feel that Raven is the one more in the wrong here, and that she is only getting the support because she is the one who posted her story.


----------



## Desdichado (Sep 30, 2005)

stevelabny said:
			
		

> But if there is someone I actively DISLIKE to the extent of not wanting to be in the same room with them? Usually encouraging them to quit or trying to get them fired works.  Obviously, it depends on where you work and what level of pull you have. If you're a new employee you're pretty much forced to shut up and ignore the person.



For posterities sake, I'm recording the moment where stevelabny lost all credibility in this thread.   :\


----------



## stevelabny (Sep 30, 2005)

More honesty makes me lose credibility?


----------



## Desdichado (Sep 30, 2005)

Admitting that you would try to get someone fired just because you didn't like them does.  Anything you could say about how to treat people who don't seem to like you in your gaming group will be colored by that now.


----------



## smootrk (Sep 30, 2005)

You know, these kinds of negetive reinforcements never produce positive results long-term.  Learning to understand those who have these petty and immature concepts helps to allow one to dismiss their opinions as ridiculous.  Only people with poor self-esteem try to bring down others in some attempt to make themselves 'bigger'.

A sad thing indeed, is that some with the childish attitudes actually have power over others, and can bring real damage to those that they choose to exert this power over.   

Everyone should take communication and psychology classes to help them understand those with these personality issues.  There are a great number of concepts and techniques for dealing with them, or at least giving one self a better grasp on how to deal with the insulting attitudes.


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## stevelabny (Sep 30, 2005)

I'm having problems putting this into words, but I'll try.

Don't bosses fire employees they dislike all the time?

Surely if I see a co-worker stealing, or harassing other employees, or shirking work, and that makes me dislike him...those are acceptable reasons to get him fired? I can't imagine anyone would disagree with those reasons?

Now let's say I think he has a personality problem... He's smelly, or he's rude, or he doesn't shut up... and that makes me dislike him. Aren't these problems that are going to affect company chemistry and morale? Or worse, affect customers or clients? Isn't it still my duty to tell my boss I think the employee has to go? 

Or did you think by "actively DISLIKE" I meant somethign so petty as trying to get someone fired because he's a Red Sox fan?  

I said "actively DISLIKE" because I meant DISLIKE.  As in there is a real, legitimate reason why I do not want to be in the same room with this guy.  Unsurprisingly, I trust my own judgment. So if I "actively DISLIKE" someone, thats a good enough reason for them to go.

Or is the problem here that if I'm not the boss and I try to get someone fired, even if its for a good reason, that I'm being a "tattletale". Is this first grade?

I'm really not sure why this makes me lose credibility.
Yes I have opinions.
And yes, I think my opinions are right.
(If I thought they were wrong, wouldn't I change my mind?) 
And yes, I am willing to stand by my opinions for the betterment of my work environment.
I wish more employees cared about their job that way.


----------



## Desdichado (Sep 30, 2005)

Someone needs a session with an HR adviser.  

Seriously, I've never worked in an environment where simply not liking someone was an acceptable reason to try and terminate their employment.  My like or dislike of a person usually has no correlation to their value to the company or their ability to do their job.  Heck, in my line of work, the ones I don't like are often the _best_ at doing their job.  The same qualities that make them unlikeable also make them good at their job, to a certain extent.


----------



## DonTadow (Sep 30, 2005)

Wow I can't believe I get Steve's point .  Karma is a mutha and its nothing but Karma coming back around.  Not saying its right but it seems to balance things out.  When I first read it I thought it was just girls being catty but this seems to be about them not liking you because you don't acknowledge their existance other than when you want something "the game".  

Someone earlier said something to the effect that they don't hang with the people they game with outside of the gaming table, and not everybody does.  SOme people in my group i hang with outside of the gaming table and some I don't.  But if I"m on the street hanging with some of my non-gaming friends and I see a gamer I'm not going to skirt to theside of the hallway and pretend they don't exist. Thats just rude to do that.  The thing that would really irk me is that you're not embarraseed of them you're embarrased of yourself, and thats really upsetting.  You should always be proud of who you are, even if you don't fully know who you are yet.  

That girl is trying to drive you away because she feels really strong about you either disacknowledging her or disacknowledging yourself.  I think if you acknowledge your gaming a bit more i the public, you'd find your group likes you alot more and the guilt you feel will go away.  Anyone whose your real friend will be your friend regardless of what you play and don't play.


----------



## spatha (Sep 30, 2005)

stevelabny said:
			
		

> I'm having problems putting this into words, but I'll try.
> 
> Don't bosses fire employees they dislike all the time?



Illegal where I live. Someone needs to have a valid reason for firing someone. Disliking them isn't valid.


			
				stevelabny said:
			
		

> Surely if I see a co-worker stealing, or harassing other employees, or shirking work,



All these reasons are good reasons to have someone fired. 


			
				stevelabny said:
			
		

> Now let's say I think he has a personality problem... He's smelly, or he's rude, or he doesn't shut up... and that makes me dislike him. Aren't these problems that are going to affect company chemistry and morale? Or worse, affect customers or clients? Isn't it still my duty to tell my boss I think the employee has to go?



Your personal opinion on someone doesn't reflect everyone elses. Even if it did all that matters is said person does his job and does it properly. Anything else is unimportant.



			
				stevelabny said:
			
		

> Or did you think by "actively DISLIKE" I meant somethign so petty as trying to get someone fired because he's a Red Sox fan?
> 
> I said "actively DISLIKE" because I meant DISLIKE.  As in there is a real, legitimate reason why I do not want to be in the same room with this guy.  Unsurprisingly, I trust my own judgment. So if I "actively DISLIKE" someone, thats a good enough reason for them to go.



Must be nice to be so sure of yourself that you can't see how your reaction to a person may be totally different from someone else. So I guess you are the end all and say all of all person opinion now?


----------



## Thotas (Sep 30, 2005)

DonTadow does a good job of taking what's worthwhile in stevelabny's post and making it more diplomatic and useful.   Raven, it does sound like you've wronged the type of person your group is, if not these particulars, in the past.   But it also sounds like you're realizing it and doing something about it.  You're to be commended for that, 99% of us never get that far.  None the less, you (like most people don't) haven't made the whole trip in one step.  Absolutely tell your boyfriend.  Past that?  You don't need to shout it from the roof tops, but if someone asks "Hey, what did you do on Saturday?" you answer truthfully.  And casually.  If they have a problem with it, just shrug it off, casually again.  Just display the assumption that you can be one of the cool kids and your own person at the same time.


----------



## Psychic Warrior (Sep 30, 2005)

Thotas said:
			
		

> DonTadow does a good job of taking what's worthwhile in stevelabny's post and making it more diplomatic and useful.




I'm just amazed that "disacknowledge" is an actual word (at least according to dictionary.com).

Yay!  I'm learning!


----------



## Thia Halmades (Sep 30, 2005)

*Gettin' on with grrrlz*

IF you're working at being a better gamer, AND they've opted to still be cruel, then I would suggest a head on confrontation, asking what the big deal is.  People (despite gender) like to feel they're superior to others; whether that's because they're open about their hobby, or aggressive about how you choose not to be, seems to be the central conflict.  My primary suggestion is to talk to them directly, stand your ground, and force them to come up with an actual reason for their behavior.

Odds are, they're picking on you because they can, and it makes them feel better about themselves.  Forcing people to articulate that often puts them in their place.

LCpt. Thia Halmades


----------



## Raven Wintervale (Sep 30, 2005)

stevelabny said:
			
		

> A few other responses got to the heart of it, but didn't call you out on it.
> 
> If you are too ashamed to admit to "normies"  (muggles? mundanes?) that you game... you are indirectly saying that you are ashamed of these girls as friends. That is beyond RUDE.
> 
> You requested advice and while this reply might seem a bit rough, its honest and probably along the lines of what the girl calling you a nerdabee is thinking.




When I read Stevelabny post my first reaction was, well I was a little shocked. But after I thought about for a while, I think I can see where Stevelabny (is coming from. I guess I need to just admit it. I kinda got that Hint from the other posters as well, but Stevelabny just came right out and said it. 



			
				stevelabny said:
			
		

> Much like posters told Raven not to take the insults the other girl, me and the other girl are refusing to take the insult from Raven.
> 
> She doesn't seem to realize that what she's doing is insulting. She's no longer being mean on purpose. That's great, maybe now that she sees it from the other side, and how her actions are insulting, she will fix the problem on her end. Then it will fall into the other girl's lap to see if she softens too




I think that DonThadow and Pbartender also hit the nail on the head.



			
				DonThadow said:
			
		

> Wow I can't believe I get Steve's point. Karma is a mutha and its nothing but Karma coming back around. Not saying its right but it seems to balance things out. When I first read it I thought it was just girls being catty but this seems to be about them not liking you because you don't acknowledge their existance other than when you want something "the game".






			
				Pbartender said:
			
		

> Look, Raven, you're a cool kid... Or at least you were at one point, right?  Now, you've surrounded yourself with the very people you use to publicaly look down on. You admit it yourself. What's more, you refuse to publicly announce to the people closest to you the thing you share with these people that very nearly defines them as a social group.




Actually Don's post calmed me down enough to reread Stevelabny post again, to see what he was really getting at. They're right I didn't acknowledge that I found gameing my last two years of High School and I'm still doing the same thing. I thought I grew up and got beyond the point where popularity meant something to me. Maybe I've haven't grown up as much as I thought I had.

I think it's time I have a talk with my boyfriend as to what I've been doing on my Saturday afternoons. I think I should tell him right off, but as for my other friends I think it would be a little odd to just flat out tell them but I woun't hide it from them either, so if it comes up it comes up. We'll see what happends from there.


----------



## Raven Wintervale (Sep 30, 2005)

Let me answer a few questions that were asked



			
				stevelabny said:
			
		

> did you ever pick on these girls specifically?



No I met them here at college.



			
				pbartender said:
			
		

> So... Your boyfriend plays roleplaying games, but for some reason you don't want to tell him that you do too? Explain this to me. It makes no sense no matter how I look at it.



No. My boyfriend in High School played RPGs. We're not together anymore.


----------



## Desdichado (Sep 30, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> He's been around Reveal too much.   Now *that's* a bad man!   (I know he'll take that as a compliment....)



Keep your hands off of him, Darth!  Reveal is mine.  In a gay prison movie kinda way.


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## sniffles (Sep 30, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> No, no, no; I'm flirting with Rel!




Gah! My eyes!! I'm blind!!! (and I don't even know you guys!)


----------



## Desdichado (Sep 30, 2005)

sniffles said:
			
		

> Gah! My eyes!! I'm blind!!! (and I don't even know you guys!)



Rel, reveal and Joshua Dyal.  Ménage à trois of *HELL!*

Everyone make a SAN check now, please.


----------



## reveal (Sep 30, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> Rel, reveal and Joshua Dyal.  Ménage à trois of *HELL!*
> 
> Everyone make a SAN check now, please.




Failed!


----------



## Desdichado (Sep 30, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> Failed!



[size=-2]Oh, crap!  What's _he_ doing here so early?[/size]

Hey, honey.  You remember Rel?  My _friend_!?

Hey, come back!  We're just friends!  Nothing was going on, I promise.

COME BACK!  I PROMISE I'LL BE FAITHFUL!!!!


Next on Maury... Gaming Geeks and their bizarre love triangles...


----------



## Lady_Acoma (Sep 30, 2005)

Owie my head hurts...


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## the Jester (Sep 30, 2005)

Raven Wintervale said:
			
		

> I think it's time I have a talk with my boyfriend as to what I've been doing on my Saturday afternoons. I think I should tell him right off, but as for my other friends I think it would be a little odd to just flat out tell them but I woun't hide it from them either, so if it comes up it comes up. We'll see what happends from there.




I think this is great.  You're making a great stride forward. 

Tell us- and your group- how it goes.  

As to your friends, just leave your Player's Handbook out in your living room the next time they are over.  It's a pretty blatant way to express your gaming side.


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## DonTadow (Sep 30, 2005)

the Jester said:
			
		

> I think this is great.  You're making a great stride forward.
> 
> Tell us- and your group- how it goes.
> 
> As to your friends, just leave your Player's Handbook out in your living room the next time they are over.  It's a pretty blatant way to express your gaming side.



Agreed, don't be overly apparent but don't go crazy hiding who you are.  I think thats the most important thing here, forgot the girls, they'll get over it.  When I first started college I had just started listening to alternative music.  Being black and living in the hood  (6 out of 10 of my childhood friends have been murdered, trust me it was the hood)most of my life, I felt sort of embarrased that my Alanis Morrisette was stacked up with my Tupac.  I'd hide the cds when my black friends came over or change the channel when I was riding through the hood.  I felt like I wasn't going to be accepted by my friends if they knew, honestly i was just really denying who i was and the cloud of guilt was all around me.  Then one day I just stopped hiding.  I was a sophmore by then.  I stopped changing the channel, left the cds out and started playing Magic: the gathering.  My former clique and I would go on trips and I would always bring my cds and magic cards. Not to spite them but I wasn't going to stop being me around people anymore.  

I'll be honest, only two people out of my highschool clique Im still friends with.  Several refused to hang with me once they found out about magic and d and d.  That was cool, I realized that I'd rather have open minded friends than judgemental ones.  HOnestly my hobbies helped me weed out those whom are going to always be there for me and those who were just around for the ride.


----------



## the Jester (Sep 30, 2005)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> I'll be honest, only two people out of my highschool clique Im still friends with.  Several refused to hang with me once they found out about magic and d and d.  That was cool, I realized that I'd rather have open minded friends than judgemental ones.  HOnestly my hobbies helped me weed out those whom are going to always be there for me and those who were just around for the ride.




Quoted for truth.


----------



## BrooklynKnight (Sep 30, 2005)

the Jester said:
			
		

> I think this is great.  You're making a great stride forward.
> 
> Tell us- and your group- how it goes.
> 
> As to your friends, just leave your Player's Handbook out in your living room the next time they are over.  It's a pretty blatant way to express your gaming side.




Some dice too :-D


----------



## Azul (Sep 30, 2005)

Raven Wintervale said:
			
		

> A fair question. I guess it's that most of my friends wouldn't understand it, somemight even  cut ties with me. Some of these people I've been friends with for a very long time. I can understand if they're mad if they think i'm ashamed of them or something (which I'm not). But I don't think it's that, often they're comments about the way I dress or things I like to do.




Some of your friends might even cut ties with you because you have a hobby that has nothing to do with them?  It sounds like you either are insecure in your relationships to those friends or they are some pretty fairweather friends.

If either group gets the impression you are ashamed of your gaming, they will react negatively to it.  The non-gamers will assume you have a reason to feel ashamed (and thus that gaming is a bad thing).  The gamers will feel like you are ashamed of them and be pretty ticked.

I'd strongly suggest you figure out why you are placing so much value on relationships with people you don't think can accept you for who you are.  Those are acquaintances and fairweather friends.  A true friend is someone who knows your flaws and weirdness and likes you anyway - they like you warts and all.  Real friendships are rarer but they are worth all the effort.

The comments from your gaming group centre around your appearance and out-of-game activities.  You might be dealing with jealousy but you are most likely dealing with some folks who have a strong sense of group identity (i.e. we are nerds) who consider gaming to be part of that group identity (i.e. gaming is for nerds only).  Sounds like you are more of a social butterfly than your fellow gamers so they see you as part of a different crowd.  It's a territorial and personal identity thing.  If they don't see you as one of them, they'll resent your presence on some level.

It also sounds like you haven't done much to dispel this idea that you are part of a difference social circle (actually, it sounds like you very much agree that you aren't in the same social circles and that might be part of your problem... you see them in the same "us and them" way they see you).

If that is the case, the best way to deal with it is probably to break down some barriers so they see you as *you* rather than part of this group or that group.  Gaming won't work for that because at gaming, you are busy being someone else instead of being you.  In a gaming environment, your character serves as a mask and makes it harder for people to get to know you.  Some of those group activities that your DM is trying to organize might help.

From your posts, I'm guessing you are in college or university.  Assuming it's legal and/or tolerated in your part of the world, sharing a few drinks and just chatting with these girls might do some good.  Find out about them and their lives and let them find out about you and your life.  It's amazing what a heart-to-heart chat between two tipsy people can do to dispel misunderstandings (warning: it can have the opposite effect too).  They are far less likely to treat you as an outsider if they really know you.


----------



## Azul (Sep 30, 2005)

Gah... well, looks like much of my advice already given by other folks (sometimes in much blunter terms).  That'll teach me to post before I finish reading a thread.

Good luck with the chat with your BF and dealing your your gaming group.


----------



## Xath (Sep 30, 2005)

I've been reading, but most of my advice has been posted.  Good luck, and be yourself.


----------



## Sequoia2 (Oct 1, 2005)

and you're telling me that this is your biggest problem you have going on in your life now?


----------



## Crothian (Oct 1, 2005)

Sequoia2 said:
			
		

> and you're telling me that this is your biggest problem you have going on in your life now?




Ah, the simple life of being a freshman in college.......


----------



## DonTadow (Oct 1, 2005)

Sequoia2 said:
			
		

> and you're telling me that this is your biggest problem you have going on in your life now?



Hey college freshment, man those were the good years.  Have fun now, 4 years later you're going to be trying to figure out your major and not settling for that liberal arts degree.


----------



## Acquana (Oct 1, 2005)

*Heh heh heh*



			
				Sequoia2 said:
			
		

> and you're telling me that this is your biggest problem you have going on in your life now?




For some reason I couldn't help but be really amused by this post.  ^_^  I guess if this is the roughest you've got right now, then you're doin pretty good.  I recall some of my bigger problems in college. I envy you.  ^_~  

Raven, just let us know how things go.  I tried to be a little more comforting that some of the other posters, but I guess bluntness has its place too.


----------



## Kanegrundar (Oct 1, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> Rel, reveal and Joshua Dyal.  Ménage à trois of *HELL!*
> 
> Everyone make a SAN check now, please.



 Failed as well...that's just...wrong...

I'll be in the corner gibbering incoherently and crapping myself...


----------



## DaveStebbins (Oct 1, 2005)

I'll just echo what many others have said, but with the words of Theodor Seuss Geisel:

"Be who you are and say what you feel 'cause people who mind don't matter and people who matter don't mind."

-Dave


----------



## stevelabny (Oct 1, 2005)

See, she's actually gonna take the advice to try to fix the problem on her end. And I'm willing to bet if she relays this story to her gaming group, they'll start to ease up on her too. 

Is there where I give her a hug ??(and slap a sign on her back that says "Kick me! I'm a gamer!") 

and thats the secret of bluntness.

you run the risk of making the person mad, but when they calm down they see the truth that lies at the center.

when you try to tip-toe around stuff and sugar-coat it and be comforting, you dont run the risk of making the person mad, but theres a good chance they will never pick up the hints and the problem will never be resolved.

I don't mind being the bad guy for a few minutes in order to fix a problem.

 I will give the advice someone might not want to hear, I will tell the smelly gamer he smells, and I will get the problematic employee fired. And then the world will be a better place.

The truth might hurt for a bit, but then it sets you free. Or something.


----------



## Acquana (Oct 1, 2005)

stevelabny said:
			
		

> See, she's actually gonna take the advice to try to fix the problem on her end. And I'm willing to bet if she relays this story to her gaming group, they'll start to ease up on her too.
> 
> Is there where I give her a hug ??(and slap a sign on her back that says "Kick me! I'm a gamer!")
> 
> ...




Or it makes you kind of a jerk.  We are all happy you're not a therapist.

But whatever.


----------



## nick (Oct 1, 2005)

I'm wondering if possibly the girl making the insults is jealous of you, or possibly that's just how she acts normally.  I've gamed with a woman who was fine with all of the male players, but was a b**** to any female players, including her own best friend.  It's hard to say why anyone does anything, but for all you know her dislike for you could have nothing to do with the game.


----------



## BrooklynKnight (Oct 1, 2005)

Acquana said:
			
		

> Or it makes you kind of a jerk.  We are all happy you're not a therapist.
> 
> But whatever.





Yanno, she did take what steve said pretty well, she even saw his point. SHE wasnt upset by how he approached the topic. Why should anyone else be.


----------



## nerfherder (Oct 1, 2005)

BrooklynKnight said:
			
		

> Yanno, she did take what steve said pretty well, she even saw his point. SHE wasnt upset by how he approached the topic. Why should anyone else be.



I think what most people found objectionable was that he would attempt to get work colleagues that he disliked fired.  How would you feel if someone at work was trying to get you fired for no other reason than they disliked you?

Other than that, I had no problem with what he said.  It's good to get the straight-talking as well as the softly-softly advice.

Cheers,
Liam


----------



## MadMaxim (Oct 1, 2005)

I guess there isn't a whole lot more to say than hoping you work it out with the other players in your group, Raven.


----------



## Psychic Warrior (Oct 1, 2005)

stevelabny said:
			
		

> See, she's actually gonna take the advice to try to fix the problem on her end. And I'm willing to bet if she relays this story to her gaming group, they'll start to ease up on her too.
> 
> Is there where I give her a hug ??(and slap a sign on her back that says "Kick me! I'm a gamer!")
> 
> ...





Now go get that annoying guy in accounting with the lisp fired already!


----------



## Pbartender (Oct 1, 2005)

stevelabny said:
			
		

> PBartender... thanks for saying I have a point, but I think you run off on the same incorrect idea that this other girl is being petty and vengeful. I dont think its a case of "You picked one me, so now I pick on you",  I think its more like "You picked on me publicly, now you pick on me silently, go away"




No, I'm thinking it's more a matter along lines of, "Girls like you used to pick on me, and I don't want you being better than me at the one thing I'm good at and taking my friends away from me."

But its hard to tell, without asking the girl in question.  I'd certainly be surprised if the teasing doesn't have its roots in having the tables turned, for once, on a percieved Cool Kid of a type similar to those who have picked on her before.



			
				Raven Wintervale said:
			
		

> No. My boyfriend in High School played RPGs. We're not together anymore.




Gotcha.



			
				Raven Wintervale said:
			
		

> I think it's time I have a talk with my boyfriend as to what I've been doing on my Saturday afternoons. I think I should tell him right off, but as for my other friends I think it would be a little odd to just flat out tell them but I woun't hide it from them either, so if it comes up it comes up. We'll see what happends from there.




A tip...  Be nonchalant about it.  Don't make a big deal about it.  Treat it in a manner as if you were heading out to a movie with your friends.

"I'm heading over to Soandso's place for a couple hours..."
"Whatcha guys doing?"
"Oh, we're just going to be playing a little D&D.  I'll see you later, bye!"
"Alright...  later!"

In my experience, if you treat it like the harmless game it is (instead of like a shameful addiciton), no one seems to mind it any more than any other quirky hobby.


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## Thornir Alekeg (Oct 1, 2005)

Pbartender said:
			
		

> A tip...  Be nonchalant about it.  Don't make a big deal about it.  Treat it in a manner as if you were heading out to a movie with your friends.
> 
> "I'm heading over to Soandso's place for a couple hours..."
> "Whatcha guys doing?"
> ...



Or you could even get lucky and get this instead:

"Whatcha guys doing?"
"Oh, we're just going to be playing a little D&D.  I'll see you later, bye!"
"Really? I always wanted to try that, maybe I can tag along?"

That's how it worked when I was dating my wife. *Not* that I recommend bringing your boyfriend into this group, even just to watch, until you work out the other issues you are having with them.  But if things don't work out with the problem women, you might find you have the beginnings of a new group.


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## DonTadow (Oct 1, 2005)

nerfherder said:
			
		

> I think what most people found objectionable was that he would attempt to get work colleagues that he disliked fired.  How would you feel if someone at work was trying to get you fired for no other reason than they disliked you?
> 
> Other than that, I had no problem with what he said.  It's good to get the straight-talking as well as the softly-softly advice.
> 
> ...



I don't think this is a far off thing.  I guess I've always worked at places were playing the politics card is very important and I've both been the victim of and the culprit.  Not as far as getting fired but if i'm climbing the corp ladder I need to make sure I"m seen as the best and those I don't want up there are seen as bumbling idiots.  It's nothing personal its the business game.  If I don't like someone at work, its usually because they're doing a horrible job and firing may be hte only solution.  However at some places simply not doing your job won't get you fired.  So if you really want someone gone so productivy can go up you have to improvise.


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## stevelabny (Oct 2, 2005)

thanks for some honesty don.
office politics exists at all jobs. 
but apparently very few poeople want to admit that.
Or they just want to whine when office politics work against them.
When of course, the best course of action is to BE the office politics. 

also, for one last time, to try to clear my good name, if you guys go back and look at the things that might make me "actively DISLIKE" a co-worker, you'll see that all of them are perfectly acceptable reasons to fire someone.

Some people seem to still be reading this and thing I'll dislike someone for something minor or petty.  Nope, I'll roll my eyes at them.  Most people aren't worthy of my dislike. If someone has earned my dislike... theres a damn good reason.

But unsurprisingly, most people always assume the worst of other people, and want to take my words in the worst possible light. Because I dare speak the truth without worrying about hurting someones feelings, I'm a jerk...and because I'm a jerk, I must always be wrong.  THAT's petty. But I suppose that's why people assume others are petty too.


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## Acquana (Oct 2, 2005)

Nah, just most of us think it's not our place as is rather self-righteous to go over people's heads and try to get them fired instead of handling issues to their face or moving one's schedule around to avoid them.  I suppose it's some kind of "office thing" to constantly be trying to backstab other coworkers.  And since you're more knowledgeable of such matters, including how to use the "suck it up and take what you deserve" tactic as a way of making new friends, I shall leave it be.


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## DonTadow (Oct 2, 2005)

Acquana said:
			
		

> Nah, just most of us think it's not our place as is rather self-righteous to go over people's heads and try to get them fired instead of handling issues to their face or moving one's schedule around to avoid them.  I suppose it's some kind of "office thing" to constantly be trying to backstab other coworkers.  And since you're more knowledgeable of such matters, including how to use the "suck it up and take what you deserve" tactic as a way of making new friends, I shall leave it be.



I know it might not be right and it might not be fair but its the real world.  Again this is just my experiences but I have worked for several companies and 2 fortune five hundreds.  There are people who believe that they will be evaluted on their performance and their are people who will screw the boss if it  gets them an edge.  There are are people who go to work on time every day and work hard and then there are those whom play golf on Saturdays with their supervisor. There are those who work overtime to get the job done and then there are those whom laugh at all their managers jokes and runs errands for him     I'll be honest, 9 times out of 10 the person who gets the nod is the latter in the two examples.  

Outside of my first job, I have received every job based on who I know.  True I do have the skills to back up my work history, and when I've been unemployed I've sent resumes everywhere without a call, but its not until I pick up the phone and call someone I know at the place that I get an interview. 

I think Steve is blunt but its honest bluntness.  Its that kind of advice you don't want to hear but we all need to hear every now and then.  This world is not the happy, shiny place we want it.  Fair is only a word that exists at summer festivals.  Some are content always taking the number 1 option and living a content life.  Some people take number 2, don't play gthe game right and crash and burn.  then there are some that that take number 1 make the big money, pray and hope something or someone out there forgives them for doing what they had to do to live the life they want.


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## Desdichado (Oct 2, 2005)

stevelabny said:
			
		

> thanks for some honesty don.
> office politics exists at all jobs.
> but apparently very few poeople want to admit that.
> Or they just want to whine when office politics work against them.
> When of course, the best course of action is to BE the office politics.



Yes, they do exist.  In my experience, the people who percieve office politics the way you do are the ones most likely to be the victims of office politics, though.  Without them, they often wouldn't really exist.  *Most* people I've ever worked with are regular Joes who act professionally towards their co-workers.

People who engage in dirty office politics are pretty transparent, IMO.  Their peers hate them, their bosses dislike and distrust them, and they don't get ahead.


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## DaveStebbins (Oct 2, 2005)

stevelabny said:
			
		

> thanks for some honesty don.
> office politics exists at all jobs.
> but apparently very few poeople want to admit that.
> Or they just want to whine when office politics work against them.
> When of course, the best course of action is to BE the office politics.



Or you could try to set an example of how people could behave at their best and see if everyone follows it and politics ends up taking a back seat to everyone being positive and helpful. Joining the politics just, IME, leads to more politics, backstabbing, sarcasm and cynicism. Set the example of goodness; then, even if it doesn't work out, at least you can be proud of your own actions and not have to justify them as 'necessary for survival' in the office jungle.



			
				stevelabny said:
			
		

> also, for one last time, to try to clear my good name, if you guys go back and look at the things that might make me "actively DISLIKE" a co-worker, you'll see that all of them are perfectly acceptable reasons to fire someone.



They are also pretty rare, whereas the term dislike has a much more common meaning of just not liking someone much. I think it's perfectly understandable that people interpretted your original statements as common dislike and that you were trying to get people fired without just cause, whether or not you intended it that way. That's certainly how I read it.



			
				stevelabny said:
			
		

> Some people seem to still be reading this and thing I'll dislike someone for something minor or petty.  Nope, I'll roll my eyes at them.  Most people aren't worthy of my dislike. If someone has earned my dislike... theres a damn good reason.
> 
> But unsurprisingly, most people always assume the worst of other people, and want to take my words in the worst possible light. Because I dare speak the truth without worrying about hurting someones feelings, I'm a jerk...and because I'm a jerk, I must always be wrong.  THAT's petty. But I suppose that's why people assume others are petty too.



Or people could be working only with what you have given them, trying to interpret statements with less-than-ideal amounts of background. See, most places I have encountered the term 'dislike' it has been used as a rather mild response to someone or something. I think that's why it seemed out of proportion to the actions you proposed taking in response.

-Dave


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## DaveStebbins (Oct 2, 2005)

BrooklynKnight said:
			
		

> Yanno, she did take what steve said pretty well, she even saw his point. SHE wasnt upset by how he approached the topic. Why should anyone else be.



Maybe because people are allowed to react in different ways to the same advice? Just because the original poster decided to follow it doesn't automatically mean it was good advice, or that it was given in the best way. I hope whatever Raven Wintervale decides to do works out well, and improves both her gaming experience and her life in general. However, if I see something in the advice given that I disagree with enough, I am going to disagree with it publicly.

-Dave
(edited for a spelling error I missed last night)


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## nerfherder (Oct 2, 2005)

DaveStebbins said:
			
		

> Or people could be working only with what you have given them, trying to interpret statements with less-than-ideal amounts of background. See, most places I have encountered the term 'dislike' it has been used as a rather mild response to someone or something. I think that's why it seemed out of proportion to the actions you proposed taking in response.



Exactly.

Cheers,
Liam


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## Darth K'Trava (Oct 3, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> Keep your hands off of him, Darth!  Reveal is mine.  In a gay prison movie kinda way.




Won't you make Torm jealous?


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## the black knight (Oct 3, 2005)

Hats off to the guy who started this thread. Biggest psyche job since last year's April fool's.


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## Teflon Billy (Oct 3, 2005)

stevelabny said:
			
		

> ...I really feel that Raven is the one more in the wrong here, and that she is only getting the support because she is the one who posted her story.




Steve has made every point in this thread that I would have.

nothing to add from here except "I Agree"


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## Crothian (Oct 3, 2005)

Well, its hard to help someone who doesn't post their story to the boards.


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## Raven Wintervale (Oct 4, 2005)

*Update Part 1*

Well many of you asked to be update with how things went this weekend so here ya go.

I’ve got good news and bad news. I’ll start with the bad news first. Friday night my boyfriend went came over to pick me up so we could go see a movie. Someone suggested leaving out a couple of game books as a way to bring up what my hobby was without “bringing it up”. As I had to work on my PC for Saturday’s game anyway I left a few of my books out my coffee table. I was acutally working on my character when my boyfriend came to pick me up. 

Naturally he saw what I was doing and asked me about it so I flat out told him I was working on my character for my game on Saturday and that’s what I did every Saturday, iI played role playing games. He asked me if that meant I played Dungeons and Dragons and I said yes it did. He had a very surprised looked which at first I took to be a bad sign. Then said, and I quote, “Wow I never thought you of as a brainy girl.” At first I was so relived that he didn’t flip out or anything that I didn’t really notice what he said. 

Then, a few seconds later, I realized what he was implying. I won’t bore you with the details but after a twenty minute fight I told him to get out and that I never wanted to see him again. I couldn’t believe some of the things he told me. You know that stuff they say about the “Modern Man” being all sensitive and understanding? Well let me tell you something, it’s crap as far as he’s concerned. I’ve never been so insulted in my entire life. “People who play those games are usually pretty smart.” What kind of BS is that nonsense? What a jerk, I mean the creep actually thought that a Physical Therapist was the same thing as a Fitness Trainer. Why the hell would I be spending my parent’s money to go to college to major in something I could study at Bally’s Fitness? And I’m the dumb one? Then he thought that complimenting my body would help things.

I guess that, instead of worrying about whether or not my boyfriend would freak out if he found out I played role-playing games; I should have worried about him being surprised that I gamed at all, since in his opinion I was too stupid to play those kinds of games!

After those cracks things just got worse, then “nerd” came out along with some other really nasty comments about gamers in general and my group in particular. Something just snapped inside me and I went off on him. In the end I wound up slapping him in the face and kicking him out. 

Sorry, I guess I’m still a little angry about it. God, I can’t believe that I wasted three months with that jerk! Well I’m happy that he’s gone. 

The good news to follow once I get home from work.


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## Darth K'Trava (Oct 4, 2005)

At least now you know how he *really* feels about things rather than him hiding behind and both of you feeling like you're leading "separate lives" due to holding secrets back.

There's better "fish" out there.


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## Crothian (Oct 4, 2005)

That's not bad news, that's good news.  Finding out your boyfriends is that way early in the relationship is much better then later.  Now you can enjoy gaming guilt free from him.


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## Darth K'Trava (Oct 4, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> That's not bad news, that's good news.  Finding out your boyfriends is that way early in the relationship is much better then later.  Now you can enjoy gaming guilt free from him.




And now she can date a cool guy like you....


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## DonTadow (Oct 4, 2005)

I"ve had that conversation/ argument with former friends before and I know how at first bad it can appear, but like everyone else its more of a silver lining.   Sad thing is I've met women just as dumb as he is.  They claim to be looking for the complete package but have become so acustomed to picking on gamers and smart people that they can't see how good they got it.  Sadly guys don't really learn until 25 or and most people are pretty much set in their ways by 26 or 27.  

I"m sure your next bf is probably a good coffee shop away.


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## Desdichado (Oct 4, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> That's not bad news, that's good news.  Finding out your boyfriends is that way early in the relationship is much better then later.  Now you can enjoy gaming guilt free from him.



Unless you totally misinterpreted him.  It's been known to happen.  Happens once a week at my house.

I'd give him a call back.  Tell him your sorry you flew off the handle, and explain why what he said was so insulting to you.  Tell him you've decided to give him the benefit of the doubt that he didn't think you were just a dumb broad, and that's not really what he meant.

If that doesn't go well, then you say, "oh well, I tried, and now at least I *know* that it wasn't me who caused this relationship to go down in flames."

And if it _does_ go well, you get to have great "I'm sorry" sex, which is some of the best stuff there is.  Oh, wait, I didn't really say that...


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## Kanegrundar (Oct 4, 2005)

JD may have a point there.  Lord knows that I've been known to stick my foot in my mouth with stuff that came out a LOT worse than they were ever intended.  Plus, Raven was all keyed up for a confrontation anyway.  There's nothing like an easy to misinterpret comment to set off a hair trigger.  Who knows?  She likely did the right thing since no one other than her and her (ex) boyfriend where there for the whole schpeil.

Kane


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## Acquana (Oct 4, 2005)

Yeah, sure mistakes can happen.  Ask him.  I mean, Lord knows the boyfriend I had in college never let it end after one fight, so your guy may want to ask further.  

But I can't say that I'd be surprised if a three-month relationship in the freshman year of college didn't work out.  Happens all the time.  Again, keep us posted if you're still up for sharing and advice, chickee.


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## A2Z (Oct 4, 2005)

Raven Wintervale said:
			
		

> “People who play those games are usually pretty smart.”



You should have sent him to the rules forum to prove how wrong he is.


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## reveal (Oct 4, 2005)

A2Z said:
			
		

> You should have sent him to the rules forum to prove how wrong he is.


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## Gnome (Oct 4, 2005)

Raven Wintervale said:
			
		

> <snip>
> 
> After those cracks things just got worse, then “nerd” came out along with some other really nasty comments about gamers in general and my group in particular. Something just snapped inside me and I went off on him. In the end I wound up slapping him in the face and kicking him out.
> 
> ...




So sorry that telling him went so badly, but it definately sounds like "good riddance" to me.

I'm looking forward to hearing to good news, though.  I assume that it has something to do with mending fences with the members of your gaming group?


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## PowerWordDumb (Oct 4, 2005)

Gnome said:
			
		

> I'm looking forward to hearing to good news, though.  I assume that it has something to do with getting along with the women in your gaming group?




Some stories can't be properly told on ENWorld.


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## smootrk (Oct 4, 2005)

Raven Wintervale said:
			
		

> After those cracks things just got worse, then “nerd” came out along with some other really nasty comments about gamers in general and my group in particular. Something just snapped inside me and I went off on him. In the end I wound up slapping him in the face and kicking him out.




Sooo, back to what you were talking about before...



			
				Raven Wintervale said:
			
		

> Guys can be so childish sometimes! Although I sure you'd have like sitting in on a few of our Vampire LARPs




Just kidding.      I am married, but trust me.  Find a significant other with similar interests.  Not only will you be happier, but you will surely make one of us "nerds" very happy as well.


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## Belen (Oct 4, 2005)

Raven Wintervale said:
			
		

> Sorry, I guess I’m still a little angry about it. God, I can’t believe that I wasted three months with that jerk! Well I’m happy that he’s gone.




It happens.  A least you did not spend 6 months with a bible thumper who was trying to "save" you, thus getting disconnected from all your friends who could not stand to be around her.  It sounds like he never made a point to get to know you in the first place, which is always a bad sign.  I am sure you'll end up with someone better.

As for your dilemma, the story about your boyfriend's reaction would make a good story for the gaming group.  I'll bet that they will all be able to identify with you and you now have a point of reference with what they must have gone through as well.


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## smootrk (Oct 4, 2005)

BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> As for your dilemma, the story about your boyfriend's reaction would make a good story for the gaming group.  I'll bet that they will all be able to identify with you and you now have a point of reference with what they must have gone through as well.



I agree.  Based on what you say your group thinks of your hiding your gaming habits, this is perfect to prove otherwise to them.  Good luck.


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Oct 4, 2005)

Raven - just thought I'd point you in the direction of Randomling's House... it's another forum, but there is a Girl Talk subforum for just us ladies to chat about whatever it is that's on our minds.    Hours of entertainment.

www.randomlinghouse.net


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## reveal (Oct 4, 2005)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> Raven - just thought I'd point you in the direction of Randomling's House... it's another forum, but there is a Girl Talk subforum for just us ladies to chat about whatever it is that's on our minds.    Hours of entertainment.
> 
> www.randomlinghouse.net




We need a mole....


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## was (Oct 4, 2005)

'The truth shall set you free"


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## Belen (Oct 4, 2005)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> Raven - just thought I'd point you in the direction of Randomling's House... it's another forum, but there is a Girl Talk subforum for just us ladies to chat about whatever it is that's on our minds.    Hours of entertainment.
> 
> www.randomlinghouse.net




I used to be a member of that forum. I was even allowed into the special girls' only board.  Alas, that was a long time ago.  I think before I even married.


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## the Jester (Oct 4, 2005)

Sorry he turned out to be a jerk.  Hopefully it wasn't just a bad communication issue- those happen, y'know. 

Good luck to you!  If you're ever in the Sacramento area drop a line my way and we'll see if we can't squeeze a special game in for you.  Here's hoping the group you're with has a better 'tude about you after this.


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## Crothian (Oct 5, 2005)

So, what was the good news?


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## the Jester (Oct 9, 2005)

Did everything work out with your group?


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## the Jester (Oct 13, 2005)

Bump for update.

Raven?  Everything ok?


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## KRT (Oct 13, 2005)

I joined a group fairly recently (about 4 months ago) however my reception was, if anything, quite good. I think it helped that they had gone through a few players that caused some problems and were releived that I wasn't a complete jerk. Even so it wasn't a meeting of long lost brothers to begin with. I find gaming groups to usually be the least judgmental but are usually reserved in their opinions and slow to open up. I found that inserting my character into the group in the least disruptive way possible was key to acceptance. Each player had spent time carving out their niche in the party and for me to barge in and take over someone's modus operandi would be a recipe for emnity. Instead I watched and helped out where I could. If the party had a weakness or an unasigned role, I took it if I could fit it into my character's persona. I looked at what the other players were trying to do with their characters and made efforts to try to augment it. The charging Cavalier in our party often needed a lowly guard type obstacle cleared out of the way for a charge on the big baddy, so I tried clearing the way. The Sorcerer needed someone to act as a blocker while he got his improved invisibility off so I archerized the hell out of stuff and stayed close to him. I think my OOC comments helped too as I am a closet wise ass that only comes out in roleplaying. 

As for outing yourself as a role player, there's one in every one of us. For instance your boyfriend didn't turn out to be who you thought he was. He was a role player. He just didn't use dice...or a frontal cortex.


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## the Jester (Oct 19, 2005)

Once more I beg for an update.


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## AdmundfortGeographer (Oct 20, 2005)

the Jester said:
			
		

> Once more I beg for an update.



Yeah, ditto.


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## Gnome (Oct 20, 2005)

I hope she didn't get scared-off by some of the posts in this thread.   :\


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## Gnome (Oct 23, 2005)

One more *bump* for good measure.


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## nerfherder (Oct 23, 2005)

Gnome said:
			
		

> One more *bump* for good measure.



I think this thread's pining for the fjords...

Cheers,
Liam


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## Arnwyn (Oct 26, 2005)

But it was good while it lasted.

References to sociopathic behavior, catfights, and even a shot at the Rules Forum. This thread has it all!


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Oct 26, 2005)

Curious Question: Would all of this "bumping" have taken place if it were a male player posting about his group's reluctance to accept him for not being open about his gaming?


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## Kanegrundar (Oct 26, 2005)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> Curious Question: Would all of this "bumping" have taken place if it were a male player posting about his group's reluctance to accept him for not being open about his gaming?



 I'm going to go with "Not bloody likely", Queen D.


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Oct 26, 2005)

Kanegrundar said:
			
		

> I'm going to go with "Not bloody likely", Queen D.



 *grin*  That's what I thought... but always fun to ask.


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## Crothian (Oct 26, 2005)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> Curious Question: Would all of this "bumping" have taken place if it were a male player posting about his group's reluctance to accept him for not being open about his gaming?




this wasn't a guy?  Your not a guy?  I'm so confused.....


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## Gnome (Oct 26, 2005)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> Curious Question: Would all of this "bumping" have taken place if it were a male player posting about his group's reluctance to accept him for not being open about his gaming?




Can't speak for anyone else, but I was really suprized to hear that her boyfriend went through the roof after learning about her gaming, and was wondering what the good news bit was.

So for me at least, it was curiosity rather than knowing that the O.P. was ***GASP*** female!


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## Rel (Oct 26, 2005)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> Curious Question: Would all of this "bumping" have taken place if it were a male player posting about his group's reluctance to accept him for not being open about his gaming?




Everybody on the internet is really a male gamer.

I thought you knew this.


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## StupidSmurf (Oct 27, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> Everybody on the internet is really a male gamer.
> 
> I thought you knew this.





Ah, the Internet...where men are men, and so are most of the women!


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## reveal (Oct 27, 2005)

StupidSmurf said:
			
		

> Ah, the Internet...where men are men, and so are most of the women!




2 people finally meet in the bus station after having an Internet romance.

Person 1: You said you were a 6'4" muscular blonde!

Person 2: You said you were a woman!


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## fusangite (Oct 27, 2005)

KRT said:
			
		

> I joined a group fairly recently (about 4 months ago) however my reception was, if anything, quite good. I think it helped that they had gone through a few players that caused some problems and were releived that I wasn't a complete jerk.



... and didn't cast wish spells inappropriately and then tried to use another wish to recover the XP, have a mail-order bride who would only play monks, insist on power attacking in all situations, leave after a few sessions to join the circus (literally!), etc.







> I found that inserting my character into the group in the least disruptive way possible was key to acceptance. Each player had spent time carving out their niche in the party and for me to barge in and take over someone's modus operandi would be a recipe for emnity. Instead I watched and helped out where I could. If the party had a weakness or an unasigned role, I took it if I could fit it into my character's persona.



And now he's constantly on the edge of the multi-classing penalty as he tries to fill in a bunch of barely-related lacunae in our group. Still, we all like the impressive ability of the Bard/Ranger/Fighter/Rogue to make dirty jokes about the NPCs.


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