# Move Action before Charge Attack



## Aust Meliamne (Sep 27, 2008)

A combatant can do a Move action, Standard Action, and Minor action in one round.

A charge is considered a standard action (PHB pg 289) allowing someone to move (at least 2 squares) directly to the nearest square they can attack an opponent from, making a melee basic or bull rush attack at +1 to hit. No further actions possible.

Can a combatant take a Minor action, Move action, then a Charge attack (in that order), thus allowing them to move their full speed during the Move action and their full speed again during the Charge attack?


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## Mouseferatu (Sep 27, 2008)

Yep. Move-then-charge is perfectly legal, and in fact often a very good technique.


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## Aust Meliamne (Sep 27, 2008)

A very good tactic, indeed.


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## Gloombunny (Sep 27, 2008)

The whole point of charging is that you can spend a move action first and thereby get double movement while still attacking.  Otherwise it would generally be better to just move up and then use an at-will attack.


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## fissionessence (Sep 27, 2008)

Try this one on for size: 

1) Melee PC and spellcaster enemy are adjacent.
2) Enemy shifts back to safely use ranged/area attack.
3) Melee PC shifts back so that he's 2 squares away, then charges enemy spellcaster.

My players' fighter did this once, as he many times prefers his basic melee attack [with _bracers of mighty striking_ to tide of iron or cleave. Now, I have the monsters do it all the time to the party, since monsters many times have much better 'basic' attacks than PCs 

~


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## Aust Meliamne (Sep 28, 2008)

Does the movement that is part of the charge attack need to be a straight line?


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## Danceofmasks (Sep 28, 2008)

Yes, and you also have to charge to the nearest square (defined by # of squares as distance, so you can choose).

I like this tactic .. move off to the side, and ready a charge in response to an enemy brute's movement.
In order to charge the caster he's guarding.
'cos since it's his turn, charging by him doesn't provoke an OA.


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## Benimoto (Sep 28, 2008)

Aust Meliamne said:


> Does the movement that is part of the charge attack need to be a straight line?




Nope, but the character "must move directly to the nearest square from which you can attack the enemy".


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## nittanytbone (Sep 28, 2008)

Here's a question:

Must you move directly to the closest square at the start of your turn?  or at the start of your action?


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## Syrsuro (Sep 28, 2008)

nittanytbone said:


> Here's a question:
> 
> Must you move directly to the closest square at the start of your turn? or at the start of your action?




When you charge, you must move directly to the closest square as determined at the start of the charge. 

So yes, one purpose of the move action before the charge is to change the square which will be your ultimate destination - as well as to move to a point where the direct route doesn't trigger OAs, etc..

Carl


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## tiornys (Sep 28, 2008)

It should be noted that multiple squares often qualify as the "nearest square", thanks to the way 4E counts distance.  For example:

```
.......
...E...
..CCC..
.......
.......
...F...
```
The squares marked C are all options for the *F*ighter to end up in when he charges the *E*nemy.

t~


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## Aust Meliamne (Sep 28, 2008)

In a situation like that (the code map above) you cannot move in an absolute straight line to occupy one of the side squares.  You'd have to move one over and then forward during your charge.

Now I suppose a DM could rule that because you need to move in a straight line, the only square you could charge to would be the middle one, but I have a feeling that the RAI allows the charging character to charge without moving in a straight line as long as the charging character doesn't take the senic route to get to his target.


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## Danceofmasks (Sep 28, 2008)

Umm, what?
You have to shoot in a straight line, but that doesn't mean you have to shoot along the gridlines.


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## Fast Learner (Sep 28, 2008)

Agreed, all three of those are straight lines, and of equal distance in 4e


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## Orcus Porkus (Oct 29, 2008)

Please help me out on this one...


```
.......
...E...
....o..
.....o.
..EEEo.
...Fo..
```
In the diagram above, "F" is a PC (fighter or whatever), "E" are enemies. "o" represents the intended line of movement.
Is it OK to speed past the frontline of enemies to get to the guy in the back as a part of moving during the charge attack?
The rules do NOT require a straight line - just a minimum of 2 squares and "directly" - since enemies block the alternatives, the movement presented is direct in my opinion. Of course he provokes opportunity attacks, but he doesn't care.


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## peach (Oct 29, 2008)

the fighter in our party does this also.  we especially like it when he charges and pushes the enemy to fall down wells.


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## avin (Oct 29, 2008)

Wait, I was under impression that the movement should be on the same direction of charge, so you couldn't step to the right and then charge in some other direction...


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## Ibixat (Oct 29, 2008)

Orcus Porkus said:


> Please help me out on this one...
> 
> 
> ```
> ...




That looks valid to me, but if I were doing that, and I had my move action to use as well I'd naturally try to shift out first and avoid the OA's. One square shift back doesn't change the charge distance and eliminates two OA's =)


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## excepti0n (Oct 29, 2008)

Aust Meliamne said:


> Now I suppose a DM could rule that because you need to move in a straight line




You don't have to move in a straight line. That's not a 4e stipulation. I admit though I played the two kobold KotS ambushes all wrong because I followed the old 3.5 straight line of thinking. They were hiding behind boulders and were supposed to charge in the surprise round. I think maybe one got a charge off.


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## Danceofmasks (Oct 29, 2008)

Eh, I'd say directly means each square you move must take you 1 square closer.


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## Mengu (Oct 29, 2008)

```
..E...
...o..
....o.
.EEE.o
....o.
...o..
..F...
```
 
With this movement, I'd say the fighter is not moving _directly_, and would not be able to make a charge attack


```
..E...
..o...
..o...
.EEE..
..o...
..o...
..F...
```
 
This would be direct movement, and I would say a charge attack could be made, provided the fighter has a way to get across the enemy line such as an athletics check to jump over them (and would of course suffer 3 attacks of opportunity).

So I think the word "directly" still implies a straight line, though the word "nearest" still implies there will be options as to which square you may choose to move directly to.


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## Danceofmasks (Oct 29, 2008)

Well, it looks obvious when you go along the gridline, but what if the fighter is one square to the right?
At what point along your upwards movement do you take the diagonal? If you're talking straight line, there'd only be one spot that straightest.

I reckon it's subjective, too difficult to adjudicate (without complaints anyway), and inconsistent with such movement modes as push/pull that allow you to zigzag your victim away or towards you.

I'm inclined to go with the first diagram being direct, because in 4e both diagrams = 5 squares of movement = same distance.


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## Mengu (Oct 29, 2008)

Danceofmasks said:


> I reckon it's subjective, too difficult to adjudicate




The only stipulation I would use is that the direct path may not deviate away from the destination in either the X or the Y coordinate. So all of the below would be moving directly from 1 to 2, where 1 is the starting point and 2 is the ending point.


```
.2...  .2...  .2...  .2... 
..o..  .o...  ..o..  .o... 
...o.  .o...  ...o.  .o... 
...o.  ..o..  ....o  .o... 
...o.  ...o.  ....o  ..o.. 
...o.  ....o  ....o  ...o. 
....1  ....1  ....1  ....1
```
 
I can see the argument for either interpretation really. I do like consistency too. It is unfortunate that pull and push don't have the "directly towards" or "directly away from" wording.


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## RigaMortus2 (Oct 29, 2008)

Can't you also Charge (Standard Action) then Move or Shift (Move Action) away after the charge as well?


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## garyh (Oct 29, 2008)

RigaMortus2 said:


> Can't you also Charge (Standard Action) then Move or Shift (Move Action) away after the charge as well?




Only if you spend an Action Point.  The Charge ends your regular turn, and any remaining Move or Minor actions are lost.


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## RigaMortus2 (Oct 29, 2008)

garyh said:


> Only if you spend an Action Point.  The Charge ends your regular turn, and any remaining Move or Minor actions are lost.




Ok, I wasn't sure about that (no book infront of me)


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## Orcus Porkus (Oct 29, 2008)

I'm sorry, but I'm a little confused now.
Can someone post an interpretation that summarizes the issue of "direct" movement? I need something to present to the DM...

My interpretation right now is:

Directly means, you need to take the shortest available route, measured in number of squares. Thus it's possible to charge in a curve, since diagonal movement counts as one square.

```
..E...
...o..
....o.
.EEE.o
....o.
...o..
..F...

.2...  .2...  .2...  .2... 
..o..  .o...  ..o..  .o... 
...o.  .o...  ...o.  .o... 
...o.  ..o..  ....o  .o... 
...o.  ...o.  ....o  ..o.. 
...o.  ....o  ....o  ...o. 
....1  ....1  ....1  ....1
```
Movement during a charge that would require a step away from the target or in a 90 degree angle, for example because of obstacles or enemies in the way, is not allowed:

```
.......
...E...
....o..
.....o.
..EEE[COLOR=Red]x[/COLOR].
...F[COLOR=Red]x[/COLOR]..
```
In the above example the direct path would have on square less. The character can either try to jump over the enemy, or shift/move before the charge:

```
.......
...E...
....o..
.....o.
..EEEo.
...Fs..
```
It's allowed to spend a move action before the charge takes place, but not after.


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## Prism (Oct 29, 2008)

how about...

a character readies a move or one of the many powers that let you attack and shift - condition charger moves adjacent. The character moves 90 degrees away from the chargers line or possibly even behind the charger or round a corner. Can the charger follow assuming they still have enough movement and still move directly. This would also affect the usefulness of the ranger weave through the fray power


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## Mengu (Oct 29, 2008)

Orcus Porkus said:


> My interpretation right now is:
> 
> Directly means, you need to take the shortest available route, measured in number of squares.




Yes, I think this will be the easiest interpretation to use, despite what I've said earlier.



Prism said:


> how about...
> 
> a character readies a move or one of the many powers that let you attack and shift - condition charger moves adjacent. The character moves 90 degrees away from the chargers line or possibly even behind the charger or round a corner. Can the charger follow assuming they still have enough movement and still move directly.




I woud say yes, much like the ruling on Kobold Dragonshield Tactics.


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## eamon (Oct 30, 2008)

Orcus Porkus said:


> I'm sorry, but I'm a little confused now.
> Can someone post an interpretation that summarizes the issue of "direct" movement? I need something to present to the DM...
> 
> My interpretation right now is:
> ...




Maybe it's obvious, but this is the same as ruling that each square of movement must bring you closer - i.e. you must charge as if your enemy were pulling you.

This alternate interpretation makes adjudicating readied actions easy - if the charge target moves or your path somehow needs to change, you can, but each square must still be closer than the last (i.e. in the new, post-interruption situation, you must again charge via a shortest path).

Incidentally, I was wondering whether this was intentional, and asked customer service whether you could charge in a zig-zag fashion, and they said that it's OK - you don't need to take a straight line, just a shortest one.


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