# Too many OT posts in General



## Barendd Nobeard (Oct 14, 2003)

Can we get another moratorium/not-so-gentle-reminder about OT topics in the General Discussion board?  It's very annoying to have 7 /25 threads be off-topic on page 1.


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## AGGEMAM (Oct 14, 2003)

I concur. And I see things are being taken care.


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## Darrin Drader (Oct 14, 2003)

So is it safe to say that Meta is becoming the forum for OT? And if so, doesn't that defeat the purpose of Meta?


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## AGGEMAM (Oct 14, 2003)

No, think of meta more as a dumping ground for OT threads, once they are here generally very little posting will be done in them. That could be because that people either don't bother to scroll down here or because those that do caome knows it's the OT threads final resting place.

Btw, most OT threads could be nicely encompassed by the Hive, use it.


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## Piratecat (Oct 14, 2003)

We're actually talking about the practice of moving "community" threads over here - birthdays, that sort of thing. The real problem is that right now we're not doing it consistently.

So far, the consensus is that we'd rather not move them, because (a) they get more views in General, which is kind of the point, (b) considering them Meta is kind of a stretch, (c) Baraendur's point about an OT forum is a good one, and (d) the less work we have to do the better. 

Unfortunately, only 25 threads per page means that a few OT threads become very noticeable, very quickly. We'll continue to slide threads to their correct forum where necessary, and feel free to give us a heads up when you think there is too much OT.


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## Darrin Drader (Oct 14, 2003)

I would recommend an OT forum and then go on my merry way, but I know the reason why it isn't done. I've heard the horror stories from the different messageboards that have actual OT forums and I feel sorry for anyone who would have to moderate such forums. Nevertheless, OT discussions won't go away, especially as the sense of community here grows. Its an interesting conundrum. I know what my solution would be, but alas, fortunately, it is not me in charge of the boards.


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## Piratecat (Oct 14, 2003)

Interestingly enough, the sense of community has been pretty steady for several years. Some OT posts are okay; a lot are a problem. We try to encourage a self-regulating balance.


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## reapersaurus (Oct 15, 2003)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> We're actually talking about the practice of moving "community" threads over here - birthdays, that sort of thing. The real problem is that right now we're not doing it consistently.



I heartily endorse this idea.

I've never felt that personal threads belong in General Discussion - it is NOT about gaming in any way, shape or form.
It is simply one person trying to get validation or feedback/congrats on something.
That's way more Meta territory than GD.

I don't believe that those threads truly 'deserve' the extra attention they get in GD. If someone wants to give feedback/congrats, there's enough trafiic in Meta to provide it, I'd wager. 
Let's be honest - those threads are mostly started for selfish reasons, let's not ignore/sugarcoat that. At best, they are about "The Community" - If they need to be allowed, than I believe they should go the same place that threads that discuss "What does the ENWorld Community mean to you" does - in Meta.


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## alsih2o (Oct 15, 2003)

reapersaurus said:
			
		

> Let's be honest - those threads are mostly started for selfish reasons, let's not ignore/sugarcoat that.




 there are too many ot threads.

 i may be one of the worst about it.

 but selfish is far off, many are silly to me but just as many make my day.


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## Umbran (Oct 15, 2003)

reapersaurus said:
			
		

> That's way more Meta territory than GD.




Hardly.  Meta is supposed to be discussion about the boards themselves.  I don't see how discussion of a birthday is any more akin to discussion of the boards than it is discussion of rpgs.



> Let's be honest - those threads are mostly started for selfish reasons, let's not ignore/sugarcoat that.




Let's not overstress it either.  It isn't really all that accurate to call it "selfish", unless you don't ascribe to the idea that we've got a community here.  People in a community like to share what's going on in their lives.  It isn't "selfish" to want to share the joy of having a new baby, or a birthday.

While tabs must be kept on the number of OT threads, it will hurt the friendly and homey demeanor of the place to start pushing the very things that make it homey off into a corner.


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## Piratecat (Oct 15, 2003)

Well, I differentiate between different OT threads.

"I just had my birthday, had a baby, got sick, had a family death, or got married" is wonderful news that goes hand-in-hand with caring for our fellow EN Worlders. It's not terribly useful to everyone, but it helps foster a sense of community. I like most of the people here, and (within reason) I want to know about the important parts of their lives. I tend to draw the line at pet threads, though, but that's me.

"Look at this non-gaming thing that other members will find really cool!" Sometimes these are really useful or thought-provoking, especially when they can be twisted to a gaming plot. When they're political or controversial, I'm less pleased with them.

"Here is something peripheral to gaming that is very useful in the game." Clay's Monday history threads fit this category, and I love them.

"Let's taunt Piratecat." Boy, these should be completely eradicated from the boards. Completely. Utterly. Eradicated.  

Seriously, the occasional OT thread that makes people laugh - especially if it involves a lot of people - is a fine thing. Reposting email joke spam is not as good.

And, just so I can complain about it! "My post didn't get enough views in the correct forum so I'm posting it here." These are a pet peeve of mine, and we tend to lock them as often as we move them. Please try not to do this, folks!

Overall, though, I think we're doing pretty well.


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## Darrin Drader (Oct 15, 2003)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> I tend to draw the line at pet threads, though, but that's me.




Yes, we often forget that you're someone's pet. Thanks for reminding us. We'll try to be more sensitive about pet threads in the future.


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## LightPhoenix (Oct 15, 2003)

I'm going to have to agree with Reaper, at least in part.

I'm really glad for people having babies, for people doing well health-wise, and such.  These types of posts do foster a sense of community.  But let's face it - they are posted not just to share a sense of joy, but to garner it as well.  Is it the sole reason, or even the predominant one?  In some cases yes, in some no.  It's a tough call.

In response about Clay's threads - they're not strictly off topic, they're meant to be a springboard for ideas and campaigns, and so are in a sense more suited for General.  You could argue for these going in Plots & Places as well though.

Really, the problem (no offense PCat and others) is that right now the mods are selective for what goes in General.  That makes it very ambiguous about what is appropriate for that forum and what isn't.  It's the same problem that would be introduced if political threads were to be introduced.  The optimal solution would be to ban all OT threads from General.

But since that isn't going to happen, what really needs to be done is for the mods to get together and decide on exactly what is going to be truly OT and what is going to be OT but acceptable in General, as well as how much of it will be acceptable, and then let everyone know.  This way no one can complain about something being closed or moved if it's OT.  Right now it's more at the mod's discretion, which isn't really all too fair (again, no offense intended).


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## Piratecat (Oct 15, 2003)

None taken, of course. The general rule of thumb is: the only place any OT threads are permitted is in General, and those may be closed or moved at moderator whim. They generally won't be, of course - closing is usually saved for problem threads - but no guarantees.

One interesting side effect of the "short" pages is that threads that aren't interesting to many people quickly head for page 2. That strikes me as a good thing.

So here's a question for you. We've been lax about moving "give me ideas" threads to Plots & Places. In fact, I've considered eliminating P&P entirely; it needs high volume to really be successful, and it doesn't have that. What are your thoughts?


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## alsih2o (Oct 15, 2003)

it has high potential to be a great htread, it just doesn't get the traffic. i think it is all general anyway. i am for moving it.


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## jdavis (Oct 15, 2003)

I like Plots and Places but it just doesn't get that much traffic (which actually doesn't bother me that much as they are usually long post to read, so I only go there when I got lots of free time. I haven't actually posted anything there in a while though).

I've found myself checking Meta more and more and hardly ever going to General, it moves so much faster and there is so much silly stuff to wade through. I still think that if people posted in the right forums that would do away with a lot of the OT. It's a shame that everybody sticks in general, we need a "Hey Check out the rest of the Forums" sign or a "Come to Meta and make fun of Baraendur" sign.


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## alsih2o (Oct 15, 2003)

the ot threads that make me itch are the "what kind of processed meat product are you?" threads.

 the ones where everybody piles in saying they are corned beef or souse or spam or pickle loaf or something based on an in-depth 8 question quiz about shoe size and ear wax preferences.

 i just assume that the people who do those hate p-kitty picture threads and history and all art threads and split the space with them as needed.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Oct 15, 2003)

*Don't hate me...*

Please no one get offended by my honest answer...

To me if the OT threads are clearly labeled then I have no issue to going on to page 2 (oh the horror) or page 3 (gasp).  I have a 56K modem, and let me say that I would be happy if it worked at 56K.  I sometimes have to wait a few minutes (literally) to get a page to load but it doesn't bug me.  Not saying that I think Enworld should be rampaging nightmare of OT lunacy, but if theirs a baseball topic, if theirs a football topic, or other *reasonable* OT thread so be it.  I think theirs more of an issue with post being in the wrong forum but people really do not want to hear that their thread is misplaced.  I found that out last night when I posted about it in their thread.  About the kids and pets, I would rather see the pets, but don’t we have galleries for both of them?  How about we use them?

The thing that irks me is always seeing a thread in meta about "theirs to many out of topic thread in general."  Theirs 25 thread, post something and it will go away.  

The poor moderators seem to have enough to do other than always answer these silly threads.

Feel angry?  Please read the first line again and have a nice day…  

Okay, now on to business.  I like P&P, I rarely post there as I’m not a DM/GM in anything at the moment.  If it got moved to general I would be all for that also.   As I said I don’t mind looking around for threads of intrest.


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## Umbran (Oct 15, 2003)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> Really, the problem (no offense PCat and others) is that right now the mods are selective for what goes in General.




And for good reason.  Ironclad rules are fine for mathematics, but lousy for people.  Not to mention the fact that strict rules mean strict loopholes.

And Brother Shatterstone has a valid point.  If you post to an on-topic thread, it will bump the off-topic ones down.  So, what's more effective in ridding yourself of the menace - coming here to meta to lodge a complaint, or going to general and spending that same time being active in there?


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## LightPhoenix (Oct 15, 2003)

Umbran said:
			
		

> And for good reason. Ironclad rules are fine for mathematics, but lousy for people. Not to mention the fact that strict rules mean strict loopholes.



Like the ban on politics and religion?  Or strictly moving media and computers posts to the correct forums?

Sorry, but I just don't agree.  The only reason that this board is as... tame, as it were, is because from almost day one posts on politics and religion have been enforced, strictly.  For example, the whole flag icon/avatar deal way back when.  That was causing all sorts of problems and that was just a minor thing.

In fact, there's already _some_ precedent for strict rules - one Hivemind thread on the main page, for instance.  There's no reason a "General Announcements" thread couldn't be started, and all of that is in one place.  What has happened time and again is the moderators will come down on OT posting, and then gradually more and more people will start posting OT stuff.  Eventually it reaches a point where the moderators have to step in again, and we're back to square one.

Self-regulating only works if we really are self-regulating.  We are to a certain extent, but not enough for the mods to just let stuff go on with no interference.



> And Brother Shatterstone has a valid point. If you post to an on-topic thread, it will bump the off-topic ones down. So, what's more effective in ridding yourself of the menace - coming here to meta to lodge a complaint, or going to general and spending that same time being active in there?



That logic I can't argue with.   



			
				Piratecat said:
			
		

> So here's a question for you. We've been lax about moving "give me ideas" threads to Plots & Places. In fact, I've considered eliminating P&P entirely; it needs high volume to really be successful, and it doesn't have that. What are your thoughts?



On the one hand, I agree.  P&P doesn't really get all that much traffic, and really those types of posts are best with more people replying to them.  And it is definitely a fuzzy line as to the difference between General and P&P.

On the other hand, if you were more diligent in moving threads to P&P, then perhaps traffic would pick up a bit there.  Hey, there might even be room for more OT threads. 

(Personal Rant)
This really ties into the self-regulating thing above.  One of the biggest tells that we're barely self-regulating, IMO, is the amount of stuff in General that should have been posted in the first place.  People don't bother to go to the other forums specifically because they know they get less traffic - even the Media and Computer forums, which have a lot of regulars!  They often times don't use the tags, which were made so people could sort stuff easier.

I mean, all it would really take to fix General is consistent use of the OT tag, and the ability to ignore any messages with that tag.  Whether that's a part of the message board software, I don't know.  But that way, you only see the threads you want to see, and have no need to complain.


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## Umbran (Oct 15, 2003)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> Like the ban on politics and religion?  Or strictly moving media and computers posts to the correct forums?
> 
> Sorry, but I just don't agree.  The only reason that this board is as... tame, as it were, is because from almost day one posts on politics and religion have been enforced, strictly.




_Relatively_ strictly.  If you'll nose around, you'll find there are a number of posters around who feel the politics and religion bans are less than sincere, that the mods only moderate some, and not others.  If folks can get that impression, how strict is the moderation?

The whole flags issue goes to note that point - what constitutes "politics" is subjective.  How strict or ironclad can a ban be when there's a matter of interpretation as to when that ban applies?

The mods are obviously aware of this.  They will, on occasion, put in a note to the effect of, "This looks like politics to me.  Keep it civil or I'm going to close it."  They do a good job, and I applaud them for it.  But let's face it - one of the admins is a pirate.  We all know they prefer guidelines to rules


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## jdavis (Oct 15, 2003)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> (Personal Rant)
> This really ties into the self-regulating thing above. One of the biggest tells that we're barely self-regulating, IMO, is the amount of stuff in General that should have been posted in the first place. People don't bother to go to the other forums specifically because they know they get less traffic - even the Media and Computer forums, which have a lot of regulars! They often times don't use the tags, which were made so people could sort stuff easier.
> 
> I mean, all it would really take to fix General is consistent use of the OT tag, and the ability to ignore any messages with that tag. Whether that's a part of the message board software, I don't know. But that way, you only see the threads you want to see, and have no need to complain.



It's a self fufilling prophecy, "I didn't post it in Meta because nobody reads Meta", well maybe more people would go to meta if more stuff was posted there. Everything gets stuck in general because that's where everybody sticks it and everybody reads everything in general because that's where everybody sticks their post. I can understand people skipping Meta but how many post have to be moved to computers or movies/tv? I would bet that half the post the board gets on a average day are in general, people just don't go anywhere else for some reason. 

As far as having to page back a couple of pages, well I don't mind that either but just because a post doesn't get 2 replies a minute doesn't mean it's not a good thread, sometimes a good thread only gets one or two post a day, the Mor's End threads from plots and places would not of worked in general for example because they only got a couple of post a day but lasted for 3 months, they would of been ten pages deep in between post and if you waited more than a couple of days to post you would never find it again. I had post in those threads that were 8 or 9 pages long (in word) and took days to type up, the average thread only last a couple of days in general, it just moves to fast to get that deep into stuff.



> the ot threads that make me itch are the "what kind of processed meat product are you?" threads.
> 
> the ones where everybody piles in saying they are corned beef or souse or spam or pickle loaf or something based on an in-depth 8 question quiz about shoe size and ear wax preferences.



 Or the good old "Hey look at this funny picture of a monkey" type post. There is a difference between this type of stuff and people having a discussion about Football season. I think a lot of people just post everything they come across while surfing the internet.


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## the Jester (Oct 16, 2003)

Well, I generally like a lot of the OT threads- but too many at once is, indeed, annoying.  Eh, I'd leave 'em in general, and Bro. Shatterstone has it right- post to a good thread to bump the ones you don't like down.

On P&P- I'd say throw it into general, just cuz I never bother to go there because there's hardly ever anything new and exciting going on there when I check.


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## Wicht (Oct 16, 2003)

Piratecat,

About Plots and Places - For a discussion area about plot ideas, its pretty lousy – low traffic.  But then you have threads like mine (which admittedly I have let die) where I posted all my adventure notes for one story hour (along with a few miscellanous DM charts and adventures).  The thread was sort of an online module to me.  I have thought about starting a second one like it for my newer campaigns.  Such a thread would seem greatly out of place in General IMO, though admittedly it would get a lot more looks.


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## Chacal (Oct 16, 2003)

About Plot and Places :

With its slow pace, I find it  cool that Plot and Places is a slowly updating archive of interesting ideas.  

But part of its threads are requests, and they don't receive the attention they would get in General Discussion.

Ideally, I would like the request-like Plot'nPlaces threads posted first in General Discussion, with a [PlotnP] tag, then  moved to Plot'n Places if they fall from the first  n pages  with a little bump for advertising Plot and Places (I wonder which % of the hits concern thread after the third page, BTW).

Of course, this would probably be too much work for the mods, and thus screams for automatization...



Chacal


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## mooby (Oct 16, 2003)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> "I just had my birthday, had a baby, got sick, had a family death, or got married" is wonderful news that goes hand-in-hand with caring for our fellow EN Worlders...
> 
> ...I want to know about the important parts of their lives. I tend to draw the line at pet threads, though, but that's me.





Many of use treat our pets as part of our families.  I'm still mourning the loss of my dog, and it's been 5 months.  Pets aren't "just pets"


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## kreynolds (Oct 18, 2003)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> "I just had my birthday, had a baby, got sick, had a family death, or got married" is wonderful news that goes hand-in-hand with caring for our fellow EN Worlders. It's not terribly useful to everyone, but it helps foster a sense of community.




Then how about a "Community" thread? After all, what exactly does "I just had my birthday, had a baby, got sick, had a family death, or got married" have to do with "General RPG Discussion"? Nothing at all, as far as I can tell.

Unless, of course, your character had a birthday, your character had a baby, your character got sick, your character had a family death, or your character got married.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Oct 18, 2003)

kreynolds said:
			
		

> Then how about a "Community" thread?



Sounds like a good idea to me...    



			
				kreynolds said:
			
		

> After all, what exactly does "I just had my birthday, had a baby, got sick, had a family death, or got married" have to do with "General RPG Discussion"? Nothing at all, as far as I can tell.




Neither does nonRPG advertisements in your signature...


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## kreynolds (Oct 20, 2003)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Sounds like a good idea to me...




Of course it does...it wasn't mine. 



			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Neither does nonRPG advertisements in your signature...




First, it's not an advertisement (per say). It's an ethical statement. 

Secondly, you won't even _see_ my signature in the General forum unless it has to do with gaming, and _that_ is the point.


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## Umbran (Oct 20, 2003)

kreynolds said:
			
		

> Secondly, you won't even _see_ my signature in the General forum unless it has to do with gaming, and _that_ is the point.




Yes, but look, that .gif in your sig takes up 9,192 bytes.  Which in a way means that any post in which it appears that is less than a thousand characters or so is more about your "ethical statement" than it is about the body text.  Otherwise, you're making people spend more download time on your .sig than on your post.  How is that for ethics?


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## kreynolds (Oct 20, 2003)

Umbran said:
			
		

> How is that for ethics?




Small price to pay.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Oct 20, 2003)

kreynolds said:
			
		

> First, it's not an advertisement (per say). It's an ethical statement.



I think your safer saying it's an advertisement as an ethical statement is just one form of politics.  

And for the record it doesn’t really bother me I was just shocked to see it.


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## kreynolds (Oct 20, 2003)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> I think your safer saying it's an advertisement as an ethical statement is just one form of politics.




Bah!  



			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> And for the record it doesn’t really bother me I was just shocked to see it.




Shocked? Why?


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## Brother Shatterstone (Oct 20, 2003)

kreynolds said:
			
		

> Shocked? Why?



I expect to see RPG advertisements and not music.   I miss Napster for only one reason…  The price of CDs was much lower than it’s hay day.


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## Piratecat (Oct 20, 2003)

mooby said:
			
		

> Many of use treat our pets as part of our families.  I'm still mourning the loss of my dog, and it's been 5 months.  Pets aren't "just pets"




Well, they are by definition, but I see your point; I have two dogs and a cat myself. When the actual three-legged Piratecat was killed this spring (eaten by coyotes, by all things!) I mourned him plenty; but it seemed a lot more self-indulgent than appropriate for me to start a thread here about it. For me, this sort of thing should be private. 

Not everyone feels the same way, and it's important to draw strength from the people who care about you. I just ask that people use good judgment when starting threads about subjects that ultimately concern mainly themselves. And they do!


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## Angcuru (Oct 20, 2003)

Can't go wrong with a good OT post...unless it's REALLY weird, sick, perverted, plain dumb(as in : [OT] IGNORE THIS THREAD!) or is mainly sports talk.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Oct 20, 2003)

Angcuru said:
			
		

> Can't go wrong with a good OT post...unless it's REALLY weird, sick, perverted, plain dumb(as in : [OT] IGNORE THIS THREAD!) or is mainly sports talk.



What you see is wrong in sports many other see as being perfectly fine and normal, so what is so wrong with sports talk?


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## Welverin (Oct 21, 2003)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> What you see is wrong in sports many other see as being perfectly fine and normal, so what is so wrong with sports talk?




No, no, no. He meant sports talk radio, which is really stupid (except for the Tony Kornheiser show, which is fun to listen to when Tony starts ranting).


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## Angcuru (Oct 21, 2003)

I just don't happen to see what's to get exited over when two groups of people wearing similar clothing and sometimes carrying sticks gather in one spot to see who's better at doing some particular thing with a ball.

But that's just me.



			
				Welverin said:
			
		

> No, no, no. He meant sports talk radio, which is really stupid




This also.


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