# Help with Monk/X gestalt build



## Runesong42 (May 26, 2005)

Hey all,
I am attempting to decide on a decent class to partner up with a Monk for a gestalt character.  Ignoring alignments, can anyone help me with an 'interesting' combination that would allow for effective monk-ing, but also have an interesting RP reason as to why such a character might learn the two classes?  I am ruling out Paladin/Monk (only because I'm tired of Paladins), and am interested in possibly a Monk/Druid, or a Monk/Psychic Warrior.

I am looking to prestige into the Soldier of Light found in the back of the _Deities and Demigods_ book.

Scores aside, assume I can qualify for whatever feats will turn me into something cool.

Rules to use: 3.5 core, Psionics Handbook (not Expanded)


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## Mokona (May 26, 2005)

Fighter/Monk is a good combo in order to get Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Strike).  That would be a very combat oriented Martial Arts tradition (with lots of flexible combat feats).

On the other hand Monk is a great combo with arcane spellcasting classes that cannot wear armor (since Monks get such great armor class benefits).  Depending on the spells you take this could be a very mystical/supernatural style monk.  Thematically a good choice would be Wu-Jen/Monk.


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## two (May 26, 2005)

A plain-Jane Monk/Druid Gestalt combo (with a good constitution) would be well-nigh unkillable.

Great saves, evasion, full caster, wildshape, wisdom-to-ac bonus, millions of free monk feats, synergies galore with monk abilities + wildshaped critter.

On the other hand, something you don't see too often:  Monk/Bard.  I know.  Sounds stupid, but think about it.

Monk/Bard.  You know.  Monk + Bard.

Yeah, I know.  It IS stupid.  Forget about that one.


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## cignus_pfaccari (May 26, 2005)

Monk/Druid is good; same stats are needed, and it's not like you're going to wear armor anyway (Hide?  Please).  Another amusing feature is you can pantomime the Dire Bear you've wild shaped into using martial arts stances.  OTOH, you have the pain of using unarmed strike ("The bear leaps into the air and does a spin kick...) with natural attacks, which is a big, big pain (...and then claw/claw/bites you!").  However, that's a good sort of pain, potentially.

Monk/Rogue = Ninja!  And gobs of damage when you flip out and kick them in the kidneys.  Plus, metric boatloads of skill points!  OTOH, you pretty much have to wear black pajamas.

Monk/Fighter will kick major tail, too.  GWF and GWS: Unarmed Strike will be fun, and you have the feats to spare to use every tactical feat you can find.

Monk/Psywar is very good as well; bonus feats and even more Kewl Powerz, and, again, you depend on the same stats.

Note that you won't be able to go into Soldier of Light as written, as that requires you to be Neutral Good.

Brad


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## pbd (May 26, 2005)

I've always thought monk cleric would blend well.

Kick some a$$, do some healing, and oh, by the way, do you want to convert?  I have a pamphlet here somewhere...


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## Talic (May 26, 2005)

Monk/Fighter is definately a potent melee combination(And if Alignments are not a problem, a Monk/Barbarian would be fearsome indeed!) Monk/Cleric or Monk/Wiz(or Sorc) can be very potent as well if you focus on buff spells and delivering spells via touch attack(rays made a decent ranged attack as well with the typical high dex monk). 

With a caster combination, you can easily buff yourself crazy before or durring a fight. Things like Mage Armor, Enlarge Person, Haste are excellent bonuses for goin crazy on opponents.  Delivering touch attack spells has the advantage of dealing your typical unarmed damage on top of any spell you're using. Spells such as Shocking Grasp, Ghoul Touch, or Vampiric Touch work nicely, or for the Cleric version, choose to weild negative energy for spontaneous touching of inflict wounds.

I myself am playing a Gestalt Monk 11/Fighter 6/Suel Arcanamach 5 brawling magehunter in a change of pace from our standard campaign. His minmal spell selection is focused on buffing himself, along with some general tactic countering spells such as Fly and See Invisibility. It's good fun.


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## Random Hero (May 26, 2005)

*Monk/Fighter*

Monk/Fighter is the way to go on this one buddy.

The fighter base attack compensates for the one of the biggest detterants for playing a monk. The feats that you get from fighter (i.e. weapon spec) allow you to make a combat effective monk with a greater feat pool for prestige classing... You already get the good saves and sweet monk abilities, so base attack and feats are all you are missing...

From thier you have pretty much unlimited options as far as fighter or monk prestige classes go.

Enjoy, good luck!


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## Vargo (May 26, 2005)

I'm a big fan of the gestalt Monk/Druid - Wisdom is your key stat on both classes, and you'll pump it like crazy.  Wildshape is INSANELY useful as well, especially when you can wildshape into size large or huge critters for extra unarmed damage dice.  If you really want to get crazy, go Shifter after Druid 5 and switch into whatever form works for you.


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## Thanee (May 26, 2005)

Monk/Psychic Warrior sounds pretty Matrixylicious. The mental way.
A full base-attack class would also fit well, of course. The martial way.

How about Paladin?

Bye
Thanee


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## two (May 26, 2005)

When playing a gestalt character, you have to have a very, very good reason to give up a full spell progression class (i.e. taking two non-spell casting classes).

I think it's painfully obvious that a Monk10/Druid10 gestalt would kick the tail of a Monk10/Fighter10, plus have millions of out-of-melee uses for the spells.

Spells in D&D are just mega powerful and useful.  A wildshaped, animal-growthed Monk/Druid wading into combat or, if necessary, calling down spells from above (or up from below) makes me shudder.

Given that both Monks and Druids have a big dependence on Wisdom, and wildshape can take care of the other physical stats... this is a very stat independent build.

You can basically have Str=10=Con=10=Dex=10  Have a maximized Wisdom and some charisma and int for whatever.  Then spend most of your time in a wildshaped form which has a good (or reasonably good) Str/Dex/Con.  Done.


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## Talic (May 26, 2005)

Here's the question tho. Are you planning on focusing melee, or more of a support character? You mentioned the PRC Soldier of Light, but I'm personally not familiar with that class.

If you're focusing on melee, more than likely you're not going to be spending rounds casting spells anyway, except perhaps one or two prior to combat. Instead you'll be in the thick of battle, unleashing flurry of blows. In that case, using and giving up a spellcasting progression isnt that big of a deal.

If you're want it to be more of a caster, you're melee attack abilities are'nt all that important anyway, and its the monk's mobility and defensive advantages that are your main concern. 

Make this decisions before you chose a class to pair with.


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## Vurt (May 26, 2005)

In my current Eberron game, one player is running a gestalt monk/fighter.  There's a feat for the setting that allows the longsword to be considered a monk weapon for purposes of flurrying, and he's going for the TWF+Flurry combo that really needs lots of feats to be viable, so the Fighter class is the natural choice.

Alternatively, if your goal to be hit only rarely in combat, a gestalt monk/psychic warrior with good stats and Combat Expertise can really make life miserable on the DM.

Cheers,
Vurt


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## MarauderX (May 26, 2005)

Monk/Druid kicks and allows the druid to retain the +wis to AC when wildshaped.  At lower levels a monk with Produced flame can tag an opponents for additional fire damage and can also deal with being unarmed.  My advice is go Monk1/DruidX, as the PC can fill any roll the party needs, from healer to blaster to buffer to summoner to melee front lines to wizard killer.  Too bad I killed that PC, I would have liked to have tested out the possibilities.  

Now I have a PC that is Monk1/Cleric9 and the abilities are great.  The AC can easily be boosted with Magic Vestment and others to match what you might be missing from magic armor and a shield.  We are in a lower magic/lower tech setting so an unarmed cleric works well.  With the amount of touch spells available, it makes the dual class worth it while still retaining mobility to deliver them.  I thought about taking another level of monk, but since my PC's dex=10 the Combat Reflexes feat wouldn't help too much.  I would also have added more to the Dex, as right now she has AC=19 - not exceptional for 10th level.  However, with Divine Power, Righteous Might and Bull's Str, Str goes from 12 to 26, BAB jumps from 6 to 10, taking an unarmed strike from +7/+2 (flurry +5/+5/+0) to +18/+13 (flurry +16/+16/+11).  The AC is maintained even though the PC is now enlarged and has reach (again, combat reflexes would have worked well with the reach).  On top of this, the PC can turn undead with alarming effectiveness.  

As far as game play, a cleric not dressed in full plate may have their faith questioned until they can show they don't need to rely on such worldly possessions - they are protected by faith, baby, faith.


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## Christian (May 26, 2005)

cignus_pfaccari said:
			
		

> Monk/Rogue = Ninja!  And gobs of damage when you flip out and kick them in the kidneys.  Plus, metric boatloads of skill points!  OTOH, you pretty much have to wear black pajamas.






For a Monk/Rogue gestalt, don't forget that if you stun an enemy with the first attack in a flurry of blows, the rest of the blows do sneak attack damage. See if they're still laughing at your black pajamas after _that_, grasshopper!


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## Thanee (May 26, 2005)

A spring attacking Monk/Scout could also work well. 

Bye
Thanee


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## Nifft (May 27, 2005)

Monk/Rogue = Flurry of Sneak Attacks. This is cool, and by cool, I mean totally sweet.

Monk/Psion = better Wuxia than a regular Monk, and full spellcasting. ZUPER-KOOL!

Monk/Cleric & Monk/Druid have been covered. They're both great.

 -- N


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## Runesong42 (May 27, 2005)

*Help me see the Future*

Thanx for all your replies, all.  While I considered a Monk/Rogue and Monk/Fighter, the last character I played was in fact a reg. rules Fighter/Rogue so I din't want to use either of those classes.  After seeing the cool combos possible, I've narrowed it down to Monk/Druid, Monk/Psywar or Monk/Psion.

The next thing I'd like to ask for will require a bunch of work, but I'm hoping someone would be willing to oblige.

I haven't played any of the above mentionned classes in 3.5 as of yet.  I'm trying to plan out a decent advancement for feats/skills, but having no experience seeing any of the classes in action, plus with the larger amount of options, I feel blind.  My character concept is that of an urban 'detective', working for a newly built city.

The city was constructed with the help of dwarves to act as a refugee camp for persons fleeing the oncoming tide of war; with the different races/classes/personalities of the area all cramped together, there is bound to be some tempers and possible skirmishes among the gathered peoples.  My PC is the divinely birthed (like baby Jesus) son of the mayor, who is actually my semi-retired PC priestess of the Sun.  He is to be assigned to the city watch to learn morality and 'cut his teeth'; later, he is to take on the Solider of Light PrC (ignoring alignment restrictions) as a symbolic warrior for his Goddess against a tide of demons and undead.

I am curious to see what the first 3, 5, or even 10 levels of any of the three classes might look like, givne that I want to design a character who is good in social situations, great on the battlefield, and have just the right amount of quirkiness.  I realize that it's quite intangible what I'm really looking for, but I'd like to see at least one possibility.  For argument's sake, if you need ability scores, assume [15,14,13,12,10,8] and work from there.

So, to sum up, I'd like to see a possibility for a Monk/Druid, Monk/Psywar or Monk/Psi.  Any help would be appreciated.


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## Random Hero (May 27, 2005)

*refined suggestions...*

Well to start, I don't think that a Monk/Druid would be the optimal character for a city environment (unless you want to go with an urban druid [blah]). So I think your options are further narrowed to the Monk/Psy Warrior and Monk/Psi...

I think that the Monk/Psi has more of a chance as a diplomat the setting you described. I don't see this character participating in difficult melee combat situations unless specifically tailored to do so (the character would lose a lot of versatility...). 

The Monk/Psy Warrior on the other hand, I think could cover both the diplomatic and melee combat aspects and still retain its versatility and quirkiness. Depending on the build, I think that this is the best choice for you to get what you want out of your character and gaming experience. 

I haven't worked anything out character wise yet...But I will soon and get back to you. 

Hopefully others will see what I am talking about and flesh out some other character builds/concepts for ya!


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## Kae'Yoss (May 27, 2005)

Thanee said:
			
		

> How about Paladin?




Splendid idea. That way, we get rid of the last dump stat for that monk. Now you need decent str dex con int wis cha.


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## sukael (May 27, 2005)

Monk/Ninja -- the class features synergize quite well, and you end up getting x2 the normal Wis bonus to AC (since the bonuses provided by both classes are untyped).


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## RigaMortus2 (May 27, 2005)

I second the Monk/Ninja...  not a powerhouse, but a very cool conceptual character build there...


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## sukael (May 27, 2005)

Add in levels of Sorcerer or Shugenja here and there and you've got the perfect setup for a 'ninja' as envisioned by pop culture (read: Naruto).


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## Nifft (May 27, 2005)

Monk/Psion -- Detective. Question is, what kind of detective?


*CSI:Sharn* -- you solve cases by finding clues at locations -- you are a Monk/Seer:

Bonus Skills for being a Seer: Gather Information (Cha), Listen (Wis), and Spot (Wis).

Level,  Power Name: 	Brief Description -- (Some Seer Specific Powers)
2, Clairvoyant Sense: 	See and hear a distant location.
2, Object Reading: 	Learn details about an object’s previous owner.
2, Sensitivity to Psychic Impressions: 	You can find out about an area’s past.
4, Remote Viewing: 	See, hear, and potentially interact with subjects at a distance.
8, Hypercognition: 	You can deduce almost anything.
9, Metafaculty: 	You learn details about any one creature.



*Law & Order* -- you solve cases by talking to people -- you are a Monk/Telepath:

Bonus skills for being a Telepath: Bluff (Cha), Diplomacy (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), and Sense Motive (Wis).

Level,  Power Name: 	Brief Description -- (Some Telepath Specific Powers)
1, Charm, Psionic: 	Makes one person your friend.
2, Read Thougths: 	Detect surface thoughts of creatures in range.
2, Suggestion, Psionic: 	Compels subject to follow stated course of action.
4, Dominate, Psionic: 	Control target telepathically.
4, Mindlink, Thieving: 	Borrow knowledge of a subject’s power.
4, Modify Memory, Psionic: 	Changes 5 minutes of subject’s memories.
5, Mind Probe: 	You discover the subject’s secret thoughts.
9, Psychic Chirurgery: 	You repair psychic damage or impart knowledge of new powers.




Either way, you want to be a hardcore kung-fu champion, am I right? So, you'll need a decent Str and Wis, and a great Int. The stats you gave us to work with are [15,14,13,12,10,8], so I'll start from there. Having a low Charisma will hurt, but so will having a low Con -- oh well, you can't be everything. If your game is focused more on the social than combat, I'll write up another version.

*Combat Monk/Telepath* -- Human
Str: 13
Dex: 12
Con: 10
Int: 15
Wis: 14
Cha: 8

Skills: Concentration, Tumble, Sense Motive, Gather Info, Diplomacy, Jump(5), Bluff(5) -- _some of these you only really care about having 5 ranks in for the synergy bonus_

L1: Psicrystal Affinity, Psionic Fist -- powers: Vigor, Inertial Armor, Psi Charm
+ (Monk1): Improved Grapple
+ (Psion1): Psionic Body

L2 (Monk2): Deflect Arrow -- powers: Entangling Ectoplasm, Offensive Prescience

L3: Inquisitor -- powers: Psi Suggestion, Read Thoughts

L4: +1 Int -- powers: Psi Tongues, Brain Lock

L5 (Psion5): Psionic Meditation -- powers: Touchsight, Dispel Psionics

L6: Greater Psionic Fist -- powers: Time Hop, Telempathic Projection
+ (Monk6): Improved Trip

L7: powers: Aura Sight, Psi Dimension Door

L8: +1 Int -- powers: Psi Dominate, Psi Modify Memory

L9: Expanded Knowlege (Metamorphosis) -- powers: Mind Probe, Trace Teleport

L10 (Psion10): Metamorphic Transfer -- powers: Psi Plane Shift, Psi Overland Flight

L11: powers: Aura Alteration, Psi Disintegrate

L12: +1 Int --Metamorphic Transfer -- powers: Adapt Body, Divert Teleport


Your dual roles are: 1/ melee monster, and 2/ savvy inquisitor.

 -- N


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## Kae'Yoss (May 28, 2005)

sukael said:
			
		

> Monk/Ninja -- the class features synergize quite well, and you end up getting x2 the normal Wis bonus to AC (since the bonuses provided by both classes are untyped).




You know, every sane DM will override this.


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## Nifft (May 28, 2005)

Kae'Yoss said:
			
		

> You know, every sane DM will override this.




... but any sane DM wouldn't allow Gestalt.  So maybe it's fair game.

I still say Monk/Psion, especially if you can wrangle higher stats.

 -- N


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## CyberSpyder (May 28, 2005)

sukael said:
			
		

> Monk/Ninja -- the class features synergize quite well, and you end up getting x2 the normal Wis bonus to AC (since the bonuses provided by both classes are untyped).



From Complete Adventurer:


> AC Bonus (Ex):  A ninja is highly trained at dodging blows, and she has a sixth sense that lets her avoid even unanticipated attacks.  When unarmored and unencumbered, a ninja adds her Wisdom bonus (if any) to her Armor Class.  *This ability does not stack with tha monk's AC bonus ability (a ninja with monk levels does not add the bonus twice).*


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## sukael (May 28, 2005)

D'oh.  Nevermind then.


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## Runesong42 (May 29, 2005)

Thanx for the Psi build, Nifft!

I can tell you're all going to groan inwardly, but the DM has decided to allow me to play a half-celestial for this obviously high-powered campaign.

That in mind, I really like what Nifft put out there, but I think I'm going to go Monk/Psywar and milk the juicy bits.  His "beginning career" will be helping out city watch, but he is to evolve into a demon slayin' Bad Boy so I thought it might be nice to add some weapon and armor prof's, should I need 'em.  

Thanks again for all the advice!


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## Mokona (May 29, 2005)

Runesong42 said:
			
		

> He is to be assigned to the city watch to learn morality and 'cut his teeth'; later, he is to take on the Solider of Light PrC (ignoring alignment restrictions) as a symbolic warrior for his Goddess against a tide of demons and undead.




Do you care what level it takes before you get into the prestige class?

Unless you take a Fighter BAB class you won't be a level 1 Soldier of Light until 8th level.  Is that ok for your character concept?


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## Nifft (May 29, 2005)

Runesong42 said:
			
		

> Monk/Psywar and milk the juicy bits.  [...] armor prof's, should I need 'em.




I'd just like to point out that "Monk" and "Armor" are not a good combination.

I'd also like to mention that a Half-Celestial will suffer many needless deaths up to about 16th level, where they start to shine. Losing four levels is a big deal, no matter what your stat boosts are. It might be more fun for you to play something with reasonable HP, saves, and class-related abilities.

Suggestions for the Monk/Psiwar:

1/ Focus on a reach weapon (like a Guisarme, which you can use to trip). If someone closes in and attacks you from 5' away, you can use your Monk unarmed strike without having to drop your reach weapon.

2/ Don't take Claw powers. You have a great unarmed strike. Just use that. Take weapon-boosting powers, since your Monk unarmed strike is treated as a weapon for the purpose of spells & effects that enhance weapons (vampiric blade, weapon of energy, metaphysical weapon, etc.)


Level-by-level Human (non-celestial) Monk/Psiwar:

Str: 13, Dex: 14, Con: 12, Int: 10, Wis: 15, Cha: 8

L1- Power Attack, Cleave -- power: Vigor
+ PsW1- Psionic Weapon
+ Monk1- Imp. Unarmed Strike, Imp. Grapple

L2- power: Inertial Armor
+ PsW2- Weapon Focus (Guisarme)
+ Monk2- Combat Reflexes

L3- Up the Walls -- power: Offensive Prescience

L4- +1 Wis, power: Animal Affinity

L5- power: Detect Hostile Intent
+ PsW5- Psionic Meditation

L6- Greater Psionic Weapon -- power: Hustle
+ Monk6- Improved Trip

L7- power: Hostile Empathic Transfer

L8- +1 Wis, power: Expansion
+ PsW8- Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)

L9- Improved Initiative -- power: Greater Concealing Amphora

L10- power: Inertial Barrier

L11- power: Weapon of Energy
+ PsW11- Expanded Knowlege (Dispel Psionics)

L12- +1 Wis, Improved Crit (Unarmed Strike) -- power: Psi Freedom of Movement

L13- power: Adapt Body

L14- power: Painful Strike
+ PsW14- Expanded Knowlege (Time Hop)

L15- Craft Psionic Arms & Armor -- power: Energy Adaptation

L16- +1 Wis, power: Personal Mind Blank

L17- power: Psi Freedom of Movement
+ PsiW17: Expanded Knowlege (Psi Teleport)

18- Expanded Knowlege (Psi Plane Shift) -- power: Detect Hostile Intent

 -- N


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## Random Hero (May 30, 2005)

*nice choice!*



			
				Runesong42 said:
			
		

> Thanx for the Psi build, Nifft!
> 
> I can tell you're all going to groan inwardly, but the DM has decided to allow me to play a half-celestial for this obviously high-powered campaign.
> 
> ...




I am happy that you chose to go with the Monk/PsyWar build, I think that you will be really happy with it. It will have bits and pieces of the things that you were looking for in your character (but will have some of all of them, atleast). 

Good luck with your character!


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## Histel (May 31, 2005)

pbd said:
			
		

> I've always thought monk cleric would blend well...




I'm actually gonna try that combo myself now. Currently only lvl 6 Cleric (Lawful Evil). Think it could offer a LOT of fun playing time =)

...only drawback is that I have to do all the levelling (I want) as a monk before I level any further in other classes. You can't ever level in Monk again after levelling in another class, correctomundo?


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## Kae'Yoss (May 31, 2005)

Histel said:
			
		

> You can't ever level in Monk again after levelling in another class, correctomundo?




No, you cannot, at least not by the core rules. But check with your DM if he might allow it. Maybe he will drop that rule (wouldn't be the only one) or make some exceptions according to your order (the FR have specific monastic orders that can multiclass with certain classes, and have the same for paladins).


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## sukael (May 31, 2005)

The Monastic Training feat in the _Eberron Campaign Setting_ book allows you to choose one specific class that the Monk's multiclass limitation doesn't apply to (and vice versa, if that class also has a multiclassing limitation).


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## Histel (May 31, 2005)

sukael said:
			
		

> The Monastic Training feat in the _Eberron Campaign Setting_ book allows you to choose one specific class that the Monk's multiclass limitation doesn't apply to (and vice versa, if that class also has a multiclassing limitation).



 Great, I have that book, I'll check it right away =)


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