# Battlestar Galactica:Season 2 7.22.05; Part 1 NSCR



## Truth Seeker (Jul 22, 2005)

"*Valley of Darkness*", Episode #202.

Tigh must work with Lee to defeat a Cylon boarding party that threatens to take over Galactica and destroy the fleet.

*Cast*: *Edward James Olmos, Mary McDonnell, Katee Sackhoff, Jamie Bamber, James Callis, Tricia Helfer, Grace Park*.

OKAY!!! Saw the repeat opener on Monday past. Saw it all, despite the poor quality reception that my cable gave. And I still saying just two words.

Damn, damn (pardon my french )

THE DRAMA CONTINUES...


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## Wolf72 (Jul 23, 2005)

spoilers ... 



Spoiler



is it just me, or are the cylons somewhat concerned about Adama ... almost like him being alive and in charge of the fleet might throw a wrench in their almost omniscient plans ... taking the baby down to the river and all (still bugs me how the humans seem more like rats in a maze than anything else)


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## Truth Seeker (Jul 25, 2005)

Man, the body count got high on this esp...this was a like slow down moment, before the storm *and it is coming*. Nice touch on Apollo, he was near freaking out level, when that Centurion was bearing down on him. But throughout the trauma, he held it together, in some parts.

Chief on 'Kobol' was another good performance. In fact, the entire cast was great. And of course, props go to the President, her status as a prophet, just got reinforce with those bullets, that missed her, but hit her jacket.

Proof is in the pudding.


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## fett527 (Jul 25, 2005)

I didn't get to comment last week as I didn't see the episode until last Thursday.  (Just thought I would wait.)

To echo some thoughts from earlier:

I REALLY want the theme music and teaser footage from the first season back.

Katee Sackhoff still annoys me.  Not the concept of the Starbuck character, but the actress' portrayal.

Nice to see the chief tossing the dogtags at the LT.  Very good.  
I liked the _Alien_ type tension of the cylons making their way across the ship.  
After hating on Sackhoff, I did like the scenes in the apartment with the music playing.  Maybe because it required her to be calm though.


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## Volaran (Jul 25, 2005)

Just thought I'd stick my two cents in, but I'm glad they went with last season's UK opening credits music.  I hope the season 1 DVDs go with that as well.


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## The_Universe (Jul 25, 2005)

I see this tonight! Missed it on friday due to a cable outage! Thank God for repeats!


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## Truth Seeker (Jul 25, 2005)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> I see this tonight! Missed it on friday due to a cable outage! Thank God for repeats!




No kiddin'


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## fett527 (Jul 25, 2005)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> I see this tonight! Missed it on friday due to a cable outage! Thank God for repeats!





I just REALLY need a DVR.


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## John Crichton (Jul 26, 2005)

I do miss the percussion part of the credits but not what played behind it.  I *hate* spoilers and built-in spoilers annoy me more than anything in TV.

Starbuck - Loving her more than ever.  Er, I mean, loving to hate.  She is a spiteful character full of venom and bile.  Makes me want to route for her even more.  Seriously, a true hero of war.  Throw all nobility away and what do we have?  A character with loads of charisma, talent and guts.  That describes any typical war hero over the ages, doesn't matter the gender.

Me?  I can't wait to have the Old Man back in action.  His scenes held the show together more times than I can count in the first season.  He bonds all the main characters together and makes them work.  Even with no lines and on a respirator he's still doing it - witness the last scene with Tigh/Apollo.

The supporting cast holding up their end of the bargain doesn't hurt either:

- The always reliable Chief of the Deck.  Who's been better at delivering the everyman vibe?

- The brilliant Doctor Baltar and his shattered mind.  Always a treat to watch the mouse in the maze.

- The Prez.  Veteran actress in a role that will (hopefully) define her career as a stellar performer.  If Adama is the engine then she is the soul.  She is the hope to Adama's guile and bluster.  There's a reason they shared a dance last season.


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## MaxKaladin (Jul 26, 2005)

I had a thought earlier today.  I'm glad Tigh is in charge.  I wouldn't have said that even a week or two ago, but having seen the first couple of episodes, I'm glad.  Why?  Because Tigh doesn't want to be in charge and is very loyal to Adama.  

Adama needs to be in charge.  He's the only sane leader they've got.  The president is on some kind of drug for her cancer and is now having "visions" (either drug or cylon induced hallucinations, IMO), acting like she's some sort of prophet or something egged on by Elosha and sending critical personell off with critical hardware to hunt down religious artifacts to fulfill her vision.  The vice-president is going nuts from the cylon in his head (though nobody knows why he's going nuts, they know he's "not quite right in the head" so to speak).  The chief "opposition" among the civilians is Tom Zarek who seems to be some sort of demagogue who only cares about himself and his ideology and who would love to use the current crisis to impose that ideology on everyone.  

The only sane leader they have right now is Adama.  He's the only one who is actually focused on the realities of the situation.  The president was too, at first, but then she decided she was a prophet and is now unfit for the job, IMHO.  Tigh doesn't want the job and he's loyal to Adama, doesn't buy any of the nonsense either Roslin or Zarek.  I think when his wife starts to push and try to get him to side with Zarek, he'll stand firm however painful it may be and ultimately give command back to Adama.  That's why I'm glad he's in charge.

Adama needs to be in charge and his idiot son would love to turn things back over to "President Hallucination".


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## wingsandsword (Jul 26, 2005)

MaxKaladin said:
			
		

> Adama needs to be in charge and his idiot son would love to turn things back over to "President Hallucination".



Adama is a tyrant and criminal who has staged an illegal military coup.  He deserves court martial, not praise.  I was already disgusted with him in "Litmus" when he declared himself above the law and refused to answer questions from a civilian review board (the first warning signs he believed he was above the civilian government).  President Roslin is the rightful leader of the fleet and the colonies, and when Adama disagreed with her decisions he ordered his forces to place her under arrest, along with any forces loyal to her (like his son).  

Tigh is a stooge, an inept officer trying to pull it together when he's blatantly unfit for command himself.  He's got more loyalty to Adama as a man than he does to the rightful rule of law, like his treatment of "We have nothing to talk about, you went up against the old man and lost" of his President.  Apollo has been the most honorable, and legitimate Colonial officer we've seen in the series, and he's treated like dirt by others because he's not part of his fathers cult of personality.

The president may be having visions, but frankly, it fits with the Battlestar Galactica motif.  Battlestar Galactica *is* Sci-Fi with heavy religious imagery, it always has been since the 70's.  The original show was literally a thinly veiled allegory of mormon history and doctrine with some ancient Egyptian and Greek overtones.  The Cylons in new BSG apparently have their own religion, monotheistic at that, while the (New) Colonies have a millennia old prophecy that the President is literally fulfilling.  The bullets all missing her barely and hitting her jacket were a pretty clear sign from the producers that they are depicting Roslin as guided from above.


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## reveal (Jul 26, 2005)

*Refers to previous two posts*

And *this* is why it's a great show. 

Two people can watch the exact same program and come away with completely different views of the characters with valid arguments on both sides. It's such a well written show from the standpoint of religion, government, and military that it smacks of "truth" forcing you to pick a side whether you want to or not. They make you care for that characters that much.

From a military perspective (being ex-military myself), this is a military operation and, thus, Adama has every right to call for the Presidents dismissal when she has shown herself to be experiencing hallucinations and is using her religious doctrine to influence her decisions. History has shown us again and again (and upper rank military officer are usually big history buffs and actually have to study it to be promoted) that mixing religion and politics don't work. He's doing what he thinks is best for all people involved.

From a civilian perspective (since I've been a civilian longer than I was in the military), this is a civilian operation being escorted by the military. The military is there to provide help and support but guidance for large scale decisions should come from the President, not an officer in the military. The President has every right to lead as she sees fit because she was elected by the people, for the people. If the people do not want her in power anymore, it is up to the people to remove her, not the military. She's doing what she thinks is best for all people involved.


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## Storm Raven (Jul 26, 2005)

MaxKaladin said:
			
		

> The president is on some kind of drug for her cancer and is now having "visions" (either drug or cylon induced hallucinations, IMO), acting like she's some sort of prophet or something egged on by Elosha and sending critical personell off with critical hardware to hunt down religious artifacts to fulfill her vision.




Are you certain that the President is, in fact, _not_ a prophet, and _not_ having true divinely inspired visions?


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## reveal (Jul 26, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Are you certain that the President is, in fact, _not_ a prophet, and _not_ having true divinely inspired visions?




Maybe she is and maybe she isn't. But if your President, whomever is in office, started to lead the country based upon "visions" they were having, how would you react? Personally, I'd be very, very skeptical.


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## Storm Raven (Jul 26, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> Maybe she is and maybe she isn't. But if your President, whomever is in office, started to lead the country based upon "visions" they were having, how would you react? Personally, I'd be very, very skeptical.




Maybe, but in the environment of the BSG universe, where every human seems to be a member of the same religion, and even Adama uses religious feeling to rally his troops (remember the pilot episode), I'm thinking that religious visionaries aren't so uncommon. Lots of people seem to think she's legitimate, including, for example, such ordinarily hard-nosed characters as Starbuck.


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## reveal (Jul 26, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Maybe, but in the environment of the BSG universe, where every human seems to be a member of the same religion, and even Adama uses religious feeling to rally his troops (remember the pilot episode), I'm thinking that religious visionaries aren't so uncommon. Lots of people seem to think she's legitimate, including, for example, such ordinarily hard-nosed characters as Starbuck.




Good point. Again, I must applaud the great writing on this show. Is she a true visionary? Is she hallucinating? Is she a cylon being fed images? So... many... questions...


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## MaxKaladin (Jul 26, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Are you certain that the President is, in fact, _not_ a prophet, and _not_ having true divinely inspired visions?



This being science fiction and considering the "layers within layers" nature of the show thus far, I cannot say I am _certain_ of anything.  However, it is far more likely that she is having hallucinations than that she is actually being influenced by some divine agency.  Especially so considering that we saw no evidence of these "visions" until after she began taking that drug for her cancer.  Absent any proof to the contrary, I am going to assume the far more likely explanation is the correct one.


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## Fast Learner (Jul 26, 2005)

Those posts are indeed exactly why I love the show.

I'm more pro-President than pro-Adama, but they both make good and bad decisions all the time, which is so wonderfully human of them both.


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## MaxKaladin (Jul 26, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Maybe, but in the environment of the BSG universe, where every human seems to be a member of the same religion, and even Adama uses religious feeling to rally his troops (remember the pilot episode), I'm thinking that religious visionaries aren't so uncommon. Lots of people seem to think she's legitimate, including, for example, such ordinarily hard-nosed characters as Starbuck.



There is a difference between drawing on faith to give people comfort and hope and actually having your diety or dieties communicate with you through visions.  The former is far more common than the latter.  Adama did not claim to be getting email from the gods, so to speak, but Roslin more or less is.  

It is also common in situations where things seem very bleak for people to grasp at any shred of hope, including someone who claims to be a prophet.  Roslin shattered Starbuck's hopes of eventually finding Earth by revealing Adama's secret and then offered her a straw to grasp at.


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## The_Universe (Jul 26, 2005)

I'm definitely more pro-Adama than anything else. Even laying on a hospital bed he's the most charismatic character on that show. Nonetheless, he and the President are definitely the two most sympathetic characters, and the least immediately and visibly flawed. They are occaisonally at odds, but they're both genuinely good and altruistic while most of the reast of the characters are blatantly self-serving. 

There are a few exceptions, but by and large Roslin and Adama stand head and shoulders above everyone else on the show.


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## Storm Raven (Jul 26, 2005)

MaxKaladin said:
			
		

> There is a difference between drawing on faith to give people comfort and hope and actually having your diety or dieties communicate with you through visions.




That's just different degrees of the same thing, sort of like the old joke where a man asks a woman if she'd sleep with him for a million dollars.



> _The former is far more common than the latter.  Adama did not claim to be getting email from the gods, so to speak, but Roslin more or less is._





Of course, one major difference is that Roslin believes that the things she is saying are true, whereas Adama belives the things he is telling people to "comfort them" (such as the "fact" that he knows the way to Earth), are lies. Who is more morally responsible in this scenario?



> _It is also common in situations where things seem very bleak for people to grasp at any shred of hope, including someone who claims to be a prophet.  Roslin shattered Starbuck's hopes of eventually finding Earth by revealing Adama's secret and then offered her a straw to grasp at._





Which would not have been possible had Adama's entire credibility not been based upon a lie. Of course, we know also that at least _some_ of Roslin's visions seem correct: she knew about Kobol for example.


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## fett527 (Jul 26, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> Good point. Again, I must applaud the great writing on this show. Is she a true visionary? Is she hallucinating? Is she a cylon being fed images? So... many... questions...



 I'll second that applause!  Love this show.

And your new avatar gave me a chckle reveal.  "I'm on an adventure!"


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## MaxKaladin (Jul 26, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> Maybe she is and maybe she isn't. But if your President, whomever is in office, started to lead the country based upon "visions" they were having, how would you react? Personally, I'd be very, very skeptical.



This sums up my feelings on the matter.  I'm very, very skeptical about Roslin's "visions" and I excuse Adama's actions because of the extraordinary nature of the situation.  He and the president seemed to be the only ones who recognized the extraordinary gravity of their situation most of the time.  If they screwed up, humanity was _extinct_ so far as they know.  Now Roslin is having hallucinations she _says_ are visions from the gods and doing things that endanger the fleet.  I'd say he had reason to believe that the president was not fit to hold office.  

I normally do not approve of military coup, but we don't know what provision the colonies had for removing a president that was believed to be unfit for office or if the bodies normally responsible for carrying out those provisions had been reconstituted yet.  We also do not know what his subsequent plans were because he was shot right after Tigh got back with Roslin and Apollo.  He may well have been trying to act as constitutionally as he could under trying circumstances.  After all, in addition to everything else, the nominal successor was off in a raptor somewhere.  

Finally, I don't think Tigh is fit to command but think he's the best choice considering the others.  Zarek and Roslin are not fit to command either, IMO.


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## Fast Learner (Jul 27, 2005)

MaxKaladin said:
			
		

> If they screwed up, humanity was _extinct_ so far as they know.  Now Roslin is having hallucinations she _says_ are visions from the gods and doing things that endanger the fleet.  I'd say he had reason to believe that the president was not fit to hold office.



By this reasoning, however, the President should have taken away Adama's power when he radically endangered the fleet back in episode 7 or so, when they hung around and burned over half their fuel because he couldn't let Starbuck die. He put the fleet _much_ more at risk than she is, and his reasons were just as inane. 

He's much more dangerous to the remaining humans than she is. And he's proven it.


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## dravot (Jul 27, 2005)

Fast Learner said:
			
		

> By this reasoning, however, the President should have taken away Adama's power when he radically endangered the fleet back in episode 7 or so, when they hung around and burned over half their fuel because he couldn't let Starbuck die. He put the fleet _much_ more at risk than she is, and his reasons were just as inane.
> 
> He's much more dangerous to the remaining humans than she is. And he's proven it.



Whether she's a whack-job, or truly a prophet, Kicking-Bird did what she did for the benefit of the fleet.  What Adama did was purely for his son.  That's the difference.


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Jul 27, 2005)

I love the question of whether or not Roslin is actually a prophetess or not... that might be my *favorite* thing about the show.  I personally would like to think that she is... but - time'll tell.

This episode really made me feel for Starbuck.  I've always liked her, but the music scene was really, really powerful.  Her lack of strength has been shown a couple of times throughout the first season, but I think that this episode was very telling of just how weak she truly is... She's definately not the tough-girl she'd like everyone to think she is.


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## MaxKaladin (Jul 27, 2005)

Fast Learner said:
			
		

> By this reasoning, however, the President should have taken away Adama's power when he radically endangered the fleet back in episode 7 or so, when they hung around and burned over half their fuel because he couldn't let Starbuck die. He put the fleet _much_ more at risk than she is, and his reasons were just as inane.
> 
> He's much more dangerous to the remaining humans than she is. And he's proven it.



I agree up to the point where you say he's more dangerous than she is.  He just nipped things in the bud before she got a chance to prove she is more dangerous whereas when he endangered the fleet, nobody interfered.  I fully believe that if she had been given the chance, she would have put the fleet in far worse danger by following her "visions" -- especially since I believe they are cylon-manufactured and intended to cause her to put the fleet in danger.  

To be clear, I do not believe Adama is the best possible leader.  I believe he is the best _available_ leader.  

Oh, and here's another thought.  From what I can tell, there is some kind of theme in colonial religion where the Lords of Kobol cause/let humanity to get nearly wiped out and then they go off on some exodus to find some new home.  Perhaps they need a new religion...


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## fett527 (Jul 27, 2005)

MaxKaladin said:
			
		

> ...Oh, and here's another thought.  From what I can tell, there is some kind of theme in colonial religion where the Lords of Kobol cause/let humanity to get nearly wiped out and then they go off on some exodus to find some new home.  Perhaps they need a new religion...




"This has all happened before, Gaius."


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## MaxKaladin (Jul 27, 2005)

fett527 said:
			
		

> "This has all happened before, Gaius."



Yeah, I know it's a big thing with the cylons.  I'm pretty sure there was some of this from all the religious stuff Elosha was telling Roslin about as well.


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## The_Universe (Jul 27, 2005)

The Cylons definitely seem to believe in a "cyclical" universe - events repeat with slight variations over and over again forever. That's interesting, because that's *usually* a feature of polytheistic or animalistic belief structures (but the Cylons are obviously monotheistic). Concurrently, the colonists seem to believe in an apocalypse/paradise (start point to end point) kind of universe - which is usually a feature of monotheistic belief structures, but are instead obviously polytheistic. 

There's some interesting stuff that goes on at the very core of the series...real hard sci fi. I love it.


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## wingsandsword (Jul 27, 2005)

MaxKaladin said:
			
		

> especially since I believe they are cylon-manufactured and intended to cause her to put the fleet in danger.



I don't think the visions came from the Cylons, because the Cylons appear to want Roslin dead.  Remember that back to the mini-series, Aaron Doral, the person on Colonial One who kept trying to convince her not to order the FTL jump even as the cylons were bearing down, the one who was being obstructive and obstinate the moment Roslin started to take command in the aftermath and prevent her from taking command.  He turned out to be a Cylon infiltrator just a few episodes in.  Thus if the Cylons had their way, Colonial One and Roslin would have been wiped out in the initial strike when it didn't FTL jump when she ordered it to as the Cylons were bearing down on them.  The Cylon centurions also fired on Roslin in last week's episode, literally missing her by less than an inch as they shot through her clothes and missed her.

As for the dangers of a government lead by religious ideology, a good chunk of human governments in the real world are lead significantly, if not primarily by religous motivations and with religious beliefs in place of scientific ones (I'll not mention anything specific to try and keep this away from No Politics/No Religion), but it's another level of realism in the series that the Colonials are also guided by their faith as much as they are their logic, and sometimes the two clash, sometimes explosively (Roslin is Faith, Adama is Logic).

Of course, the fact that the ancient prophecy seems to precisely fit Roslin's condition (the last leader of humanity leading it to a new home, not living to see the new homeland, right down to the details of the visions).  It looks like a sci-fi analogy of the story of Moses actually (given that the original name for BSG was "Adam's Ark" when it was first concieved in '69, with Adama literally being a slight renaming of Adam, and the show always having this theme, it fits perfectly).

The idea of perfectly atheistic futuristic human governments lead by an infallible belief in science may work in Star Trek, but it's not very realistic, and it's way against the grain for BSG.


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## MaxKaladin (Jul 27, 2005)

wingsandsword said:
			
		

> I don't think the visions came from the Cylons, because the Cylons appear to want Roslin dead.  Remember that back to the mini-series, Aaron Doral, the person on Colonial One who kept trying to convince her not to order the FTL jump even as the cylons were bearing down, the one who was being obstructive and obstinate the moment Roslin started to take command in the aftermath and prevent her from taking command.  He turned out to be a Cylon infiltrator just a few episodes in.  Thus if the Cylons had their way, Colonial One and Roslin would have been wiped out in the initial strike when it didn't FTL jump when she ordered it to as the Cylons were bearing down on them.  The Cylon centurions also fired on Roslin in last week's episode, literally missing her by less than an inch as they shot through her clothes and missed her.



They were obviously trying to kill her then, but it is possible that they changed their plans since then.  There is also the theory floating around that there is more than one faction of cylons at work.  



> Of course, the fact that the ancient prophecy seems to precisely fit Roslin's condition (the last leader of humanity leading it to a new home, not living to see the new homeland, right down to the details of the visions).



One could also say it fits a little too perfectly.  It does not seem terribly far fetched that the cylons could be aware of the prophecies and manufacturing visions.  I'm not saying that's exactly what's happening -- just that there is more than one explanation for the prophecies matching the current situation pretty well.  



> The idea of perfectly atheistic futuristic human governments lead by an infallible belief in science may work in Star Trek, but it's not very realistic, and it's way against the grain for BSG.



True, but there are degrees of reliance on faith in a government or society.  I think what it comes down to is that we don't know how the colonials feel about someone thinking they're a prophet.


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## Kobold Avenger (Jul 28, 2005)

This episode was brutal, there was maybe something like 8 cylon centurions and they killed at least 50 people if not 100, before getting taken out.  

If it was the original series, starbuck and apollo would have easily killed those 8 cylons who would have had the accuracy of a Star Wars stormtrooper, and no one would have died.

But in this new series with the cylon centurions running around the ship unleash a massacre on the crew, it was more like _Aliens_ with the _Terminator_ (since the cylon centurions remind me of the terminator skeletons) mixed in.

For the scenes on Caprica, it's a good thing they're using more of those backalleys in downtown Vancouver for a planet that's supposed to be devastated by nukes.  Those alleys can be really messy and dirty, even if they're in the cleanest part of downtown Van.

I don't know if anyone here remembers that for one of the deleted scenes, Elosha was saying the disaster on Kobol was caused by one of the gods trying to elevate themselves above the others.  Six in Baltar's head responded by saying it was heresy.  

We still don't know if those were Cylons that killed Tarn on Kobol, because somehow I suspect they might be automated sentry guns put in place.


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## Kid Charlemagne (Jul 28, 2005)

MaxKaladin said:
			
		

> They were obviously trying to kill her then, but it is possible that they changed their plans since then.




I don't know that they were specifically trying to kill her at that point, I think they were just going after another governmental target.  I wouldn't expect that the Cylons knew who was in charge or what they wanted to do with them quite at that point.

On the other hand, the Cylons do seem to be testing, prodding, challenging the humans, but not destroying them utterly like they probably could.  Maybe they're pushing them in such a way to force them to fulfill prophecies that the Cylons wnat fulfilled for some reason.


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## ecliptic (Jul 28, 2005)

Well I believe her "visions" are cylon induced. Either she herself is a cylon or the cylon she talked to (the one the captured and whispered into her ear) did something to her. 

She was sacraficing everything for her "visions". Cylons excel at being manipulative and this is no different. I feel Adama had  full right to do what he did and it was justitifed.

The President should have stepped down as soon as she found out she was sick.


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## MaxKaladin (Jul 28, 2005)

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> I don't know that they were specifically trying to kill her at that point, I think they were just going after another governmental target.  I wouldn't expect that the Cylons knew who was in charge or what they wanted to do with them quite at that point.



Oh, I doubt it was anything more than them trying to kill another government official as well.  I don't think there was any "Laura Roslin Must Die" order.  



			
				Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> On the other hand, the Cylons do seem to be testing, prodding, challenging the humans, but not destroying them utterly like they probably could.  Maybe they're pushing them in such a way to force them to fulfill prophecies that the Cylons wnat fulfilled for some reason.



I think it's pretty clear that the Cylons want something besides the utter destruction of humanity at this point.  My suspicion is that they're trying to wipe out any form of military defense and effective leadership at this point.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Jul 28, 2005)

ecliptic said:
			
		

> The President should have stepped down as soon as she found out she was sick.




And left the military in charge when its quite clear early on that Adama just wants to fight? Ha, no.

Though I'm more on Adama's side than anything, I think its best to sit back and wait for some explanations. We really no SO LITTLE about the Cylons, their plans(other than they have one...), etc, that its near impossible to make any useful predictions.


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## fett527 (Jul 28, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> And left the military in charge when its quite clear early on that Adama just wants to fight? Ha, no.
> 
> Though I'm more on Adama's side than anything, I think its best to sit back and wait for some explanations. We really no SO LITTLE about the Cylons, their plans(other than they have one...), etc, that its near impossible to make any useful predictions.



 But guessing and discussing is what makes it so much fun!


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Jul 28, 2005)

fett527 said:
			
		

> But guessing and discussing is what makes it so much fun!



 Oh, definitely, but usually we've got more to go on than we do with BSG. Actually, that makes it all the more fun, but the point is its hard to make any _accurate_ predictions with what we've got.


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## fett527 (Jul 28, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Oh, definitely, but usually we've got more to go on than we do with BSG. Actually, that makes it all the more fun, but the point is its hard to make any _accurate_ predictions with what we've got.





True.  Little info to make _accurate_ predictions.  Let's keep 'em comin' though!


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## reveal (Jul 28, 2005)

fett527 said:
			
		

> True.  Little info to make _accurate_ predictions.  Let's keep 'em comin' though!




The Cylon's will be on the brink of triumph when Daggett will save all of humanity.


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## jhallum (Jul 28, 2005)

fett527 said:
			
		

> True.  Little info to make _accurate_ predictions.  Let's keep 'em comin' though!




Well, whatever you do, don't go to the scifi.com main page for BGS.  They put fraking spoilers for Ep 10 right on the front page!  I'm seriously frustrated by that.


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## Kobold Avenger (Jul 29, 2005)

Something a few pointed out about this episode and the last episode is the opening credits in the first episode say there's 47,875 survivors.

This episode the opening credits say that there's 47,874 survivors left (with Tarn dying last episode).

So that means in the next episode there may very well be something like 47,850 or less survivors left.


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## fett527 (Jul 29, 2005)

Kobold Avenger said:
			
		

> Something a few pointed out about this episode and the last episode is the opening credits in the first episode say there's 47,875 survivors.
> 
> This episode the opening credits say that there's 47,874 survivors left (with Tarn dying last episode).
> 
> So that means in the next episode there may very well be something like 47,850 or less survivors left.




Yeah, I hope they keep it updated for continuity.  That would be cool attention to detail.


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## Steve Jung (Jul 29, 2005)

The official website keeps track of how many Vipers are active, so I would hope so.


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## ecliptic (Jul 29, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> And left the military in charge when its quite clear early on that Adama just wants to fight? Ha, no.
> 
> Though I'm more on Adama's side than anything, I think its best to sit back and wait for some explanations. We really no SO LITTLE about the Cylons, their plans(other than they have one...), etc, that its near impossible to make any useful predictions.




Humanity is on the brink of extinction and you think all Adama wants to do is fight? Adama wants to keep humanity alive any way that is physically possible.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Jul 29, 2005)

ecliptic said:
			
		

> Humanity is on the brink of extinction and you think all Adama wants to do is fight? Adama wants to keep humanity alive any way that is physically possible.



 You're missing something important here.

You said that she should have resigned IMMEDIATELY after finding out she was sick. Well, ignoring the fact that she wasn't President yet and jumping time a bit, at that point, Adama is ONLY set on fighting the Cylons. It takes a lot of convincing to get him to actually protect the people, and he still goes on to endanger the civilian fleet multiple times.


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## John Crichton (Jul 29, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> You said that she should have resigned IMMEDIATELY after finding out she was sick. Well, ignoring the fact that she wasn't President yet and jumping time a bit, at that point, Adama is ONLY set on fighting the Cylons. It takes a lot of convincing to get him to actually protect the people, and he still goes on to endanger the civilian fleet multiple times.



When did he needlessly endanger the colonial fleet on purpose? Every time there has been conflict or combat initiated by Adama there has been a good reason behind it (get fuel, stay alive).

And they are kinda on the run and at war.  I don't recall Galactica or the fleet running into any Cylon ships that didn't shoot first.


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## Fast Learner (Jul 29, 2005)

He needlesssly endangered the fleet in episode 7 or so, when he hung around the area Starbuck crashed in. For ages. Burning up tons of fuel (over half their reserves). To save _one person_ while massively endangering _50,000 people_. He had a choice, and he _needlessly_ endangered the colonial fleet on purpose.


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## Kobold Avenger (Jul 29, 2005)

Either way things are going to go from bad to worse this season because neither Adama or Roslin are in charge now...

I'm pretty sure next episode we are going to see how things are going to be disastrous.

I don't think Adama is all about fighting, because during the first season Laura Roslin has generally favoured some of the more violent solutions.  Such as the prison riot, where she didn't even want to negotiate, or the fact that she ordered the execution of the Leoban model cylon.    Adama is after all the son of a civil rights lawyer so that does influence a bit of his thinking, though disbanding that independant tribunal sort of goes against supporting civil rights.  For one thing I'd say that the fleet needs both of them, as we're probably going to see through the rest of the season.


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## John Crichton (Jul 29, 2005)

Fast Learner said:
			
		

> He needlesssly endangered the fleet in episode 7 or so, when he hung around the area Starbuck crashed in. For ages. Burning up tons of fuel (over half their reserves). To save _one person_ while massively endangering _50,000 people_. He had a choice, and he _needlessly_ endangered the colonial fleet on purpose.



Oh, right.  

But that was emotional and foolish (they go hand in hand). He wasn't trying to fight Cylons at that point. He was trying to save his "daughter."


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## John Crichton (Jul 29, 2005)

Kobold Avenger said:
			
		

> Either way things are going to go from bad to worse this season because neither Adama or Roslin are in charge now...
> 
> I'm pretty sure next episode we are going to see how things are going to be disastrous.
> 
> I don't think Adama is all about fighting, because during the first season Laura Roslin has generally favoured some of the more violent solutions. Such as the prison riot, where she didn't even want to negotiate, or the fact that she ordered the execution of the Leoban model cylon. Adama is after all the son of a civil rights lawyer so that does influence a bit of his thinking, though disbanding that independant tribunal sort of goes against supporting civil rights. For one thing I'd say that the fleet needs both of them, as we're probably going to see through the rest of the season.



I'd say your well reasoned logic is getting in the way of a good spat.  

Anywho, I pretty much agree with this.  And to echo what has been said before, it's what makes the show compelling.  Honestly, I'm still waiting for this season to get good.  And by good I mean getting the Old Man back on his feet.  This week's ep looks to be lots of fun.

And to note, just like Farscape, Buffy, Firefly, B5, etc this show's average is better than 99% of the stuff on the air.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Jul 29, 2005)

Kobold Avenger said:
			
		

> I don't think Adama is all about fighting...




*Now*, he isn't. My point was that, whe Roslin first became president, Adama didn't care about the civilians at all so her resigning would have put him in charge...and he would have just left them there.

Adam has, thankfully, changed. It will be interesting to see what happens when he wakes up, though.


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## Staffan (Jul 29, 2005)

ecliptic said:
			
		

> The President should have stepped down as soon as she found out she was sick.



As I recall it, when the mini-series started, she (still just Secretary of Education at the time) was on her way to meet with the president and tender her resignation on account of her illness. Then the feces made contact with the ventilation system, and she, who was like 25th in the order of succession, found herself president of Humanity (the 50,000 that's left of it anyway). Given that there wasn't really anyone left, she stayed on as president. She's also taken steps to make sure that there's a new order of succession if she dies before the election (of course, making Baltar president wouldn't be the best thing possible...).


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## fett527 (Jul 29, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> *Now*...Adam has, thankfully, changed. It will be interesting to see what happens when he wakes up, though.




I am awaiting the aftermath of that with much anticipation.  I hope he's still the same.


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## RaceBannon42 (Jul 29, 2005)

This is the best show on Television IMO. By quite a wide margin.  I come down on the Adama side of things. For the most part the decisions he makes are one that I think I would make in his shoes. Roslin is not the duely elected president of the 12 colonies. She just happed to be 43rd in line of succesion. Not that Zarek or Baltar would be any better. She does feel that she is doing what is best for the fleet, as does Adama. Both of them have shown poor judgement. Roslin in ordering colonial one not to abandon rescue efforts when the cylons showed up, even though she was in effect only dooming everyone on her ship as well as those who couldnt be rescued. Adam in  origianlly wanting to return Galactica to the fight after rearming on Ragnar station. 

Cant wait for tonights episode!


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## Wolf72 (Jul 29, 2005)

slightly off topic ...

I just caught some of the original BSG episodes on sci-fi ... I still liked the characters, still liked the special effects, still liked the uniforms, and thought most of the ships shown were still pretty cool.

sure it was a wee bit campy, but overall not that bad ... I wonder if they used the original BSG as a base for the new one ... in the way the Cylons may have evolved and changed, there was some scenes where it seemed like the Cylon intelligence failed in it's logic ... almost like a lesson learned when compared to the new cylons.

The Cylons have a plan, I just hope that the Humans have a chance of really screwing it [the plan] up.

can't wait for tonight!


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## Sir Brennen (Jul 29, 2005)

Kobold Avenger said:
			
		

> Adama is after all the son of a civil rights lawyer so that does influence a bit of his thinking, though disbanding that independant tribunal sort of goes against supporting civil rights.



I'm not sure if I agree with this... the tribunal, after all, was crossing the line with their witch hunt, and disbanding them was actually _protecting_ civil rights.  The fact that it came from someone in uniform just makes that point harder to see (and shows Adama using military clout to support his humanitarian ideals.)  This is just another great example of the paradoxes written into the characters, exposing and subverting many of the assumptions of the audience.

Even the coup was an attempt to "protect" the civilians from the actions of the president.  It wasn't a power grab. Though Tigh's wife might turn it into one...


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## Fast Learner (Jul 29, 2005)

A note on Roslin stepping down: imo it's a very good thing that she _didn't_ step down. At least with her, someone in a truly legal position is there to counter Adama (which, early on, a lack of which would have doomed humanity as BSG went off to fight an unwinnable war, leaving the shreds of humanity helpless). Even being Secretary of Education and all that, someone in charge based on the old law is key to making things work early on.

New elections are, of course, entirely appropriate.


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## TanisFrey (Jul 29, 2005)

I am glad to notice in this epsoid that the writers have returned slightly to the speech paterns with unusual curses like the BSG(1978).  With the use of Frak, this makes them like us but just slightly different development.


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## wingsandsword (Jul 29, 2005)

TanisFrey said:
			
		

> I am glad to notice in this epsoid that the writers have returned slightly to the speech paterns with unusual curses like the BSG(1978).  With the use of Frak, this makes them like us but just slightly different development.



Yeah, my only problem with new BSG is that it's too much like the here and now.  Business suits and ties, humvees and deuce-and-a-half trucks, the ruins of Caprica even show Earth roadsigns (like the railroad-crossing X sign, seeing that really spoiled my suspension of disbelief for a little while, it took the "Frak" exclamations the next scene to get it back).  

It's another human culture, at an indefnite time in the past or future, that has had no contact with the humanity of Earth for many thousands of years, when Earth was in the dawn of civilization, but they somehow have the same dress, street signs, vehicles and the like as early 21st century North America?

Old BSG was campy and corny, but they did go out of their way to establish that it was a completely different civilization, with it's funky vocabulary and sometimes strange cultural elements.  New BSG sometimes seems almost sliders-esque with a parallell world feel since it's a completely different world and history, but some things are just strangely parallel.

I love New BSG, but that's the only real gripe I have with it, at least using expressions like "Frak" bring back a little "otherness" to them.


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## Kobold Avenger (Jul 29, 2005)

wingsandsword said:
			
		

> Yeah, my only problem with new BSG is that it's too much like the here and now.  Business suits and ties, humvees and deuce-and-a-half trucks, the ruins of Caprica even show Earth roadsigns (like the railroad-crossing X sign, seeing that really spoiled my suspension of disbelief for a little while, it took the "Frak" exclamations the next scene to get it back).



I live in Victoria, BC which is a ferry-ride away from Vancouver, and there's many places they choose to film in BSG that's so obviously Vancouver.  They've already shown the Vancouver Public Library and Simon Fraser University.  And I guess you would be fortunate on Caprica if your bank happened to be Scotiabank...  A couple people I know who live in Vancouver even call Caprica, "Cylon-Occupied Vancouver"...  

But filming in actual places around Vancouver, does sort of ground the planet Caprica as a place that's a lot like now (since they're trying to show how the colonials are much like us), and saves a bunch of money.


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## TanisFrey (Jul 29, 2005)

"Just a centan, Frak, Febler-carb, Yarni" and other terms from the BSG'78 could have been used to make them more different while using the cheep items/building/filming locations from our world.  I am just glad to see something that is in total control of the writers and DOES NOT COST $$ is being used, finaly.


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## Shieldhaven (Jul 29, 2005)

I have kind of an odd view on the Episode 1.7 incident - in which Adama risked the whole fleet to wait for Starbuck.  They'd gone out of their way, earlier in the episode, to establish Starbuck as the only person with the ability to teach new Viper pilots.  It's been long enough since I first saw the ep that I don't remember why Apollo can't teach them, but I'm pretty sure that's what they said.  Even though the whole fleet was at risk, Starbuck personally holds the future of all Viper training in her mind and so he couldn't possibly leave her.

*shrug*

That, and Adama has been grooming her for command.

Haven


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## Sir Brennen (Jul 30, 2005)

47, 862 surivors now...


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## Fast Learner (Jul 30, 2005)

Shieldhaven said:
			
		

> I have kind of an odd view on the Episode 1.7 incident - in which Adama risked the whole fleet to wait for Starbuck.  They'd gone out of their way, earlier in the episode, to establish Starbuck as the only person with the ability to teach new Viper pilots.  It's been long enough since I first saw the ep that I don't remember why Apollo can't teach them, but I'm pretty sure that's what they said.  Even though the whole fleet was at risk, Starbuck personally holds the future of all Viper training in her mind and so he couldn't possibly leave her.
> 
> *shrug*
> 
> ...



They went out of their way to show that she was the _best_ person to train the nuggets, but I didn't get that she was the _only_. What, Apollo couldn't train them?


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## Steel_Wind (Jul 30, 2005)

If Adama was right in arresting Roslin - then Baltar is President.

Think on the implications of _that_ for a moment. 

I do agree that this is the best show on TV. Frankly - I don't even watch TV anymore. But to be honest - I don't watch this one on TV either. In Canada, _Space_ isn't showing it until the Fall - and I am not waiting that long. So I download every episode off of Bittorent (2x03 is humming on the dl right now).

The producers of BSG can rest easily though - I'll buy each season DVD when released.

People talk about the Cylons as if they were monolithic. I don't think they are. The Toasters  - yes.  But the human copies have introduced a dangerous and what will prive to be a potentially disloyal element to the Cylons.

There are traitors amongst the humans - and in time - I expect traitors amongst the Cylons as well.  It's X-Files meets Trek.

I really do have to commend Ron Moore and the writers of the show though. They know their craft and use all sorts of clever devices to keep the show fresh.  Maintaining a presence on Caprica and now on Kobol is a brilliant piece of plotting that keeps the show fresh, opens up plot lines and never leaves us just floating in space being chased by Cylons every damned episode.

Getting rid or Roslin and Adama to get Tigh in there so it's not one happy fleet. Baltar as someone you don't know is an enemy or if he isn't. Starbuck the maverick on a hair trigger; Apollo as struggling to be his own man. Even smaller rolls like the Chief and his crew have all stepped up.

There really isn't any actor who is bad - and the vast majority bring depth to every role. 

Great stuff.


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## Shieldhaven (Jul 30, 2005)

Steel_Wind - good point on how they keep Caprica, Kobol, and Galactica as active locations.  That's half of how they make it better than ST: TNG or Voyager.  The other half, equally impressive to me, is that people at all levels of the military, from the Deck crew and the newbie pilots on up to the Old Man, are characters with depth that I really care about.  All Star Treks have been bad about sending all of the highest-ranking officers on all of the adventures - so much so that it's laughable.  (Don't get me wrong.  I like ST too.  But.)

Yeah.  Best show on television.  (Though I'm still bitter that Carnivale got cancelled after two seasons.)

Fast Learner - Heh.  Gamer geek that I am, I'm thinking of Starbuck as being the one and only pilot with the Instruction skill, and without this skill no other skills may be passed on.  Obviously it doesn't quite work like that, but we were sitting around applying stats to everyone anyway. 

Haven


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