# What level should a paladin get a holy avenger?



## dreaded_beast (Jul 20, 2004)

The heading says it all


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## DaveMage (Jul 20, 2004)

In general, I'd say level 13.  It's about there that the fiends really start to get nasty.


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## BiggusGeekus (Jul 20, 2004)

1) When the story of the campaign demands it.

2) When the player quests for it.

3) When it's 10 minutes before the game starts and you don't have any ideas what to throw at the PCs, so you use an instant dungeon generator, put the sword at the center and call it a quest.

All three are prefectly valid times.  Some DMs might argue that #1 and #2 have more validity than #3, but then those are the DMs who have their story arcs planned out six months in advance.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Jul 20, 2004)

No set time.  It's not a given that every Paladin will have a Holy Avenger sword.


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## diaglo (Jul 20, 2004)

if this were a poll i'd say never...


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## Hand of Evil (Jul 20, 2004)

He never gets it, he earns it!


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## diaglo (Jul 20, 2004)

Hand of Evil said:
			
		

> He never gets it, he earns it!




great minds and all....


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## Altamont Ravenard (Jul 20, 2004)

Well if a Holy Avenger is worth ~120,000gp, then a Paladin shouldn't get one before 14th level (according to the DMG character wealth guidelines )

AR


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## dcollins (Jul 20, 2004)

The sword costs 120,000 gp. According to the character wealth guidelines, a PC should be at least 14th level to possess this. 16th level is appropriate, as it would represent half the PC's suggested wealth.


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## Khayman (Jul 20, 2004)

diaglo said:
			
		

> if this were a poll i'd say never...




I'm with you.


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## dreaded_beast (Jul 20, 2004)

Wow, thanks for all the responses!

I didn't mention it at the beginning of the post, but since I know the subject of Paladins is a bit touchy, let's keep this nice and civil.


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## Sejs (Jul 20, 2004)

5th level.



But only if it's a holy avenger whip.


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## Whimsical (Jul 20, 2004)

Of course, lower-level paladins would be happy with a +1 Holy weapon or a sun blade. How about a Holy Avenger spiked chain? Other weapons need your DM love, too.  It's not just about the uber-sword anymore. That's a 2nd editionism.


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## Chimera (Jul 20, 2004)

Never.

Too gauche'.  Too cliche.

Too much to expect that EVERY Paladin gets a Holy Avenger.  After all, at what level does the Fighter get his Ultimate Fighter Sword?  When does the Ranger get his Ultimate Ranger Sword?

My response:  You want a Holy Avenger?  Commission it's creation.  Find the Wizard who can manufacture it, convince him to do so, cough up the money and find all the special components he's going to ask you for.


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## Kalendraf (Jul 20, 2004)

Although a bit off-topic, the Neverwinter Nights expansion, Shadows of Undrentide had  a special Paladin-only quest which let them obtain a Holy Avenger.  Unfortunately, it came at a fairly low level (IIRC, 7th or 8th), and after getting it, the game becomes stupidly easy.  There was other special equipment available for Paladins as well, and in conjunction it made the game totally unchallenging.

In a typical D&D campaign, I'd estimate that a Paladin shouldn't get one, at least permanently, until they are well into the double-digit levels.  If you want to loan one to a lower level paladin for a single session for some special quest, that might be ok under the right circumstances.  Otherwise, keep it away until much, much later.


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## Arnwyn (Jul 20, 2004)

Lots of options:
1) Whenever the DM decides.
2) Whenever the paladin can "afford" it and has the means and opportunity.
3) Use the DMG wealth list as a guideline (ie. 16th level+ looks appropriate).


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## Hand of Evil (Jul 20, 2004)

This reminds me of a dirty joke...which I will change...

Paladin walks into a bar, right behind him is a seven foot tall monster of a man wearing a mask and cape.  Bartender looks at the guy and says "what gives?"  The Paladin turns to the bartender and says "Once I was walking down the beach and I found this bottle, as I rubbed it a gennie popped out and was so grateful, he gave me three wishes!  The first wish was to be good looking, the second was to have fame.  My third wish was to have a Holy Advenger, this is what I got!" point to the caped and masked man...


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## Umbran (Jul 20, 2004)

Some say the Holy Avenger is too trite or cliche to use these days.  Personally, I think it is a matter of what fits into your game.  In some games it might seem cliche, while in others it would fit quite nicely.  Only you and your barber know for sure...

If you are going to go the HA route, there are a couple things to consider - 

If you're using the wealth guidelines - the thing really shouldn't come before 14th level and all, and 16th would be more reasonable.

Gaining a Holy Avenger is one of the more major points in a Paladin's career.  Simply going out and commissioning one takes all the drama out of the thing.  The aquisition should be momentous - don't include it until the storyline calls for it.  And, as a followup - the only thing more important than getting the thing is what the character does with it.  Don't give it out until you know you want him to be using it on the sorts of things it is designed to handle.

So, overall - the HA is thematically potent enough that it's aquisition should be more aobut hte story than about levels.


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## drothgery (Jul 20, 2004)

At about the same level that the other PCs get similarly powerful cool uber-magic gear. Maybe a bit earlier, if your game is one where it's tough to be a paladin and your paladin-playing PC is roleplaying well. In any case, if you're playing at anything near by-the-DMG magic & wealth levels, most paladins probably should a have a chance to get some sort of Holy weapon, if they want one, long before a Holy Avenger is reasonable.


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## Dark Jezter (Jul 20, 2004)

I'm with Umbran.  Simply paying a wizard to craft you a Holy Avenger is boring.  Gaining a Holy Avenger should be the objective of a quest or crusade, perhaps retrieving the hallowed weapon from an evil dragon's treasure hoard or reciving it as a gift from your god after completing a dangerous quest in service of the church.

As to the question of what level a paladin should gain a Holy Avenger, I'm gonna agree with the people who say that you should wait until at least level 16.


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## Lamoni (Jul 20, 2004)

A Paladin gets a temporary (once per day for only a few rounds) Holy Avenger with the Holy Sword spell at level 15.  That is a fun spell to use and is quite good.  Therefore I wouldn't give a Holy Avenger to the character until at least 16 so that they would have some time to play with their new spell and enjoy it.  Once you get a HA, Holy Sword will probably never be chosen again (and that is probably the single best Paladin spell there is).  Of course, Complete Divine finally added a few spells that could also be fun to play with.


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## pawsplay (Jul 22, 2004)

> I'm with Umbran. Simply paying a wizard to craft you a Holy Avenger is boring.




It doesn't have to be.  Say, the first day you march into town with your already legendary weapon... a blackguard riding a red dragon swoops down over the town square, mocks the paladin's insignificant weapon, and starts causing mayhem.  

16th is good... anything over 6th level or so is fine if the story supports it... it might be a nice present at 20th level, which is going to be a long level, especially if the DM makes a rule about performing an epic deed to make epic levels.


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## KenM (Jul 22, 2004)

When the paladin backstabs another paladin and takes his holy avenger.


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## Nuclear Platypus (Jul 23, 2004)

I think the holy avenger should be created sort of like how the samurai's daisho gets spiffed up in OA as in it becomes more powerful with time. Sacrificing XP would be more appropriate than gold IMO as well.


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## DM_Matt (Jul 23, 2004)

Never.  I dont want to roll against weak SR for every darn spell cast and dispelling against every baddie buff every round.  It bogs down the game waaaay too much.


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## MCakaTLK (Jul 23, 2004)

Personally, I think the best use of a Holy Avenger is to give 2 paladins 1 of them.


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## Lord Pendragon (Jul 23, 2004)

DM_Matt said:
			
		

> Never.  I dont want to roll against weak SR for every darn spell cast and dispelling against every baddie buff every round.  It bogs down the game waaaay too much.



Are you speaking from experience?  Since the SR only applies to spells specifically targetting the paladin, I'd hardly think you'd have to roll for every spell cast.  And since using the _Greater Dispel Magic_ ability of the Holy Avenger requires a standard action, and thus the paladin cannot attack any round he uses it, my guess is that you'll hardly be rolling for _Area Dispels_ every round.

But I've never DMed one, so perhaps in practice it's different.


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## Inconsequenti-AL (Jul 23, 2004)

I'd go for as soon as they can gather the 120,630 GP and make it down to the friendly local Magic 'o Mart. Holy avengers are found between the Staffs of Power section and the Wishes aisle...


I'm quite a fan of unlockable weapons. I'd consider starting them with a Holy Sword at some reasonable level. Over time they can unlock the swords powers. And quite probably it's ego as well.

Full Holy avenger ~ 16th I reckon.


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## Plane Sailing (Jul 23, 2004)

The SR of the holy avenger is so weak it is hardly worth having.


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## jmucchiello (Jul 23, 2004)

Lord Pendragon said:
			
		

> And since using the _Greater Dispel Magic_ ability of the Holy Avenger requires a standard action, and thus the paladin cannot attack any round he uses it, my guess is that you'll hardly be rolling for _Area Dispels_ every round.



DM: The door is magically sealed.
PAL: I greater dispel around the door.
DM (die roll): The door is still sealed.
PAL: I greater dispel around the door again.

Every magic trap, magic door, magic anything can be dispelled at will by the Paladin. Since there are no per day limits, there's no reason for him not to try. I've always hated the holy avenger.


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## Lord Pendragon (Jul 23, 2004)

jmucchiello said:
			
		

> DM: The door is magically sealed.
> PAL: I greater dispel around the door.
> DM (die roll): The door is still sealed.
> PAL: I greater dispel around the door again.
> ...



Cool.  I hadn't thought about that angle with the dispelling.  As a DM I'm not sure I'd hate it any more than the wizard's _Disintegrate_ or the rogue's +30 search check, but it's definitely changing my mind about the versatility of the Holy Avenger on the whole.  The out-of-combat uses of at-will _Greater Dispelling_ can't be ignored.


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## ecliptic (Jul 23, 2004)

I would limit the dispel and give it something else.

Holy Avenger should have been a Relic.


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## Endur (Jul 23, 2004)

Somewhere between level 5 and level 20.  King Arthur got his when he pulled the sword out of the stone.  Aragorn received his from the Elves in Rivendell.

So, you want the sword to be a part of the story, so relatively early in your campaign.  You don't really want the sword to arrive right when the Paladin is settling down to raise children.


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## Taneel BrightBlade (Jul 24, 2004)

A side quest, may be like this: A balor killed the local hero a knight of Heironious while he was seaching for the lair of a dragon that had been attacking the small village near by.  the Pcs kill the dragon then during the celabation the Knights wive ask if the say her husband or if in the dragons hoard they hand fond his magic long sword (they didn't find it.  The knights wife says he's probebly just lost but if the had time to look it would be appecated.
If they look the find the balor and if they kill it the find the corpse and sword in a near cave along with a some scrolls of disintagate the balors been failing to destroy the sword with


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