# E-Tools owners, please grade it



## Airwolf (Aug 12, 2002)

I am considering E-Tools as a purchase but I want to know what people who own it think about it.  

Yes I have read most of the posts about the program and I realize there are some limitations, but overall what grade would you give E-Tools

Thanks for the input!


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## Cergorach (Aug 12, 2002)

Looks good, if it's short commings are addressed within a reasonable amount of time (few months, before the end of the year) then you might have a winner here...


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## bushfire (Aug 12, 2002)

Well I gave it a "B"

It does what I want it to do fairly easily and quickly. There are some bugs that hopefully will be fixed in the first patch. There are very few what I would call "quirks" in the program. Most peoples problems come from the fact that, where there isn't bugs, it follows the D&D rules pretty closely.

The ability to quickly make a classed monster, or advance a monster and get a stat block quickly is great.

Now I don't run a campaign using every D20 supplement under the sun (or the FRCS), so the fact that I will have to enter some data doesn't bother me much. The data that *can* be entered is easy to do. 

Basically if it saves me time then it is worth it, and eTools looks like it will save me time.


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## Q1000 (Aug 12, 2002)

*Modifications*

I like it.

By using access i have added a thug and guardsman npc class to the generator. Working on prestige classes next.

Its what you make of it I guess.


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## kristov (Aug 14, 2002)

*E-Tools*

Im another one of these "I am a programmer" kinda guys - so I wanna say that for WOTC throwing a few million at E-Tools and it being in development for so long (years) - its a POS.

Basically, I would say that the Fluid guys were in over there head and probably learned alot about how to actually program while making this software.

Any decent development team could have churned out a much more feature filled product in the time they were given and its a damned shame.

I bought it - and ill keep my copy and use it to support the industry but those are the facts as I see it. It should do more, it should have been more and its not that the guys didn't try - my assumption is they just weren't talented enough when they started this project.

Thanks,

Kristov


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## Chaz (Aug 14, 2002)

Initially I give it - "B" Only because I think a LOT of user problems / posts could have been avoided with a well laid out manual. Its still my hope that a manual / advanced how to guide will still be created and set up for download in PDF or HTML etc. format soon. ( hear that fluid gurus? hehe )

That said, for sheer potential I give it "A"  I believe that with a patch or two and continued user support from people like Davin with his utility, and Eric Noah and others with user added content that even if there are no "official" add-ons from fluid it will be a great program. However I strongly believe there will be more add-ons from the fluid folks.

In short - GO BUY IT.


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## smkun (Aug 14, 2002)

*All it accomplished was taking up space on my hardrive*

It was thusly returned. Things that irked me. No templates, you can not random generatea multi classed character. Boots of speed do not modifiy speed nor is speed a feature that can be manipulated. It prints horribly. Basic magic weapons such as +1 longsword are not in the list and have to be added. That was about where I stopped.


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## Feaelin (Aug 14, 2002)

> *Originally posted by smkun*
> Boots of speed do not modifiy speed nor is speed a feature that can be manipulated.




Boots of speed do not increase your speed.  (They imitate the effects of haste, which also doesn't increase your speed...it grants a partial action instead).   Also, they are a "use-activated"/command word item with a finite limit (10 rounds), which means they do not operate continously, therefore it'd be logical not to include their modifiers on your sheet (since the tool has no idea whether they are active).

You may be confusing Boots of Speed with boots of Striding and Springing (which doubles your speed and grants +10 to jump checks).


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## DPGDarrin (Aug 15, 2002)

I think its useful as a development tool and character generator, but it the biggest shortfall I see is that classes and prestige classes are limited to those found in the core books. It also has no way to handle monster templates (well, you can create a new race to handle this, but the hit dice are going to wrong and you'll have to change them manually).

On the other hand, its easy to create characters and generate a stat block, character monsters are easy to generate, new monsters and races are easy, treasure is easy. Adding custom information varies depending on the type of stuff you're trying to add. So the overall grade I give it is a B. If they add a way to generate new prestige classes, or customize it for a different D20 build, I'll upgrade my evaluation to an A.


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## Airwolf (Aug 15, 2002)

*GPA*

Greetings all,

Just incase someone is wondering, E-Tools currently has a GPA of 2.16129.  

This puts it firmly in the 'Take it or leave it' catagory.  

I also wanted to thank everyone who stopped by to give E-Tools a grade.

* ----- EDIT ----- * 
Here is the updated GPA as of 8/29

GPA: 1.942446

It seems that E-Tools is just not making the grade.

* ----- EDIT ----- * 
Here is the updated GPA as of 9/24

GPA: 1.868852

The GPA keeps slipping, reminds me of my freshman year in college.


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## LightPhoenix (Aug 15, 2002)

*Re: E-Tools*



			
				kristov said:
			
		

> *Basically, I would say that the Fluid guys were in over there head and probably learned alot about how to actually program while making this software.
> 
> Any decent development team could have churned out a much more feature filled product in the time they were given and its a damned shame.
> *




I'm not sure I would have chosen Fluid either, but it was done.

In Fluid's defense, I suspect there was a good number of issues behind the scenes which hindered development - including WotC not really knowing what they wanted.

After all, it seems the whole focus of the program changed halfway though development, I'm sure that can't have helped things any.


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## Vpenman (Aug 21, 2002)

*More feedback*

I am interested in this, so I am bumping it back to the first page.


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## bitonti (Aug 21, 2002)

*etools*

Reporting in on etools.  I have to say that I'm disappointed.
So much so that I am returning the software.

The faults?  *The interface is too hard to use!*  The panels
are too busy, and rely on too small of a subset of metaphors.
The window size maxes out.  I cannot change the font sizes.
The monster pictures are poorly shaded, and don't blend in
with their background.  The little ball icon on the lower left
doesn't do anything when I click it.  There doesn't seem to
be a way to build a database of charater/monster/magic
instances.  How do I build complete encounters?  The stats
block is unformatted!  The interface is sluggish, there is no
hover-help, there doesn't seem to be complete text for
feats/skills (maybe that's what the little ball icon is for).  There
doesn't seem to be a way to customize the colors (a colorblind
co-worker of mine would not be able to use this program).

That's after about 1/2 hour of use, after which time I stopped
using the program and decided to return it.

Maybe there are paths through the program that address some
of my complaints, but without a manual and good integrated
help, how am I to know how to find them?

Overall, I find this to be an amateurish implementation.  I gave
it a 'D', and only reluctantly.  (On the plus side, the effort is
pretty vast, and they have packed in a lot of basic capabilities,
and I ran into no crashes or overt faults.  But, I've seen and
built a lot better software than this.)


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## Sm!rk (Aug 21, 2002)

*Re: etools*



			
				bitonti said:
			
		

> *But, I've seen and built a lot better software than this.) *




Sure you have.

But on another note, at least two other people had comments along the same lines, why don't you get together with them and then make magic happen. I'll be waiting for a better D&D product, keep me posted with news on this.


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## Nightstorm (Aug 22, 2002)

This is coming from someone that knows  nothing about programing. But it seems to me that in the year 2002 with the level of computer software we have now that making a program that generates characters should not be that hard to do. Am I missing something? You tell me. You people are the experts. Is it difficult to make a program that caculates numbers? Am I the only person on these boards that feel the developers should have to watch every copy get burnt before thier eyes by the people that shelled over thier hard earned money on this crap and than be hung out on a cross? Am I the only one????

WAKE UP!!


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## Sm!rk (Aug 22, 2002)

Nightstorm said:
			
		

> *Am I missing something? You tell me. You people are the experts. Is it difficult to make a program that caculates numbers?
> *




Yes you are wrong for a few reasons, the first is that 2002 means nothing in terms of engineering better software, building software is not like mowing your lawn, and we haven't advanced much the last 10 years. What has changed however is that more companies are spending money and more money to build software so it "appears" better.



> *
> Am I the only person on these boards that feel the developers should have to watch every copy get burnt before thier eyes by the people that shelled over thier hard earned money on this crap and than be hung out on a cross? Am I the only one????
> *




At this point I realized you were insane and needed to get mental help. What would watching a lot of plastic melt mean to anyone? You don't like it? Return it, quit being a crybaby. Thats the only thing WotC will hear.


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## WizarDru (Aug 22, 2002)

Nightstorm said:
			
		

> *This is coming from someone that knows  nothing about programing. But it seems to me that in the year 2002 with the level of computer software we have now that making a program that generates characters should not be that hard to do. Am I missing something? You tell me. You people are the experts. Is it difficult to make a program that caculates numbers? Am I the only person on these boards that feel the developers should have to watch every copy get burnt before thier eyes by the people that shelled over thier hard earned money on this crap and than be hung out on a cross? Am I the only one????
> 
> WAKE UP!! *




If D&D was purely 'calculating numbers', then you'd use Excel, and we wouldn't be having this conversation.  A chargen program has to handle all the different variations of rules that D&D offers, sometimes from wildly different sources.  It's one thing to calculate a BAB...it's another to figure a person's Diplomacy score while wearing a Cloak of Charisma, counting synergy bonuses from class, feats and multiple skills, making sure you don't have similar bonuses stack and so on and so forth.  Try building a mid to high-level monk/psionic warrior with a high wisdom and artifacts, and then write a program to calculate his AC.  Now do this for every similar situation in D&D.

Creating a good PC generator is a sizable undertaking.  With around 600 pages in the core rules alone, people tend to underestimate the task.  Especially if they only look at the part of the rules they are using, and forget that everyone is using the program differently.  If it was as non-trivial as it is constantly represented as being, then PCGen and others would already completed this task, and no one would even look at eTools.  eTools is not what everyone hoped it would be, myself included, but it still has the potential to succeed and be a useful tool.  

And to Fluid's defense, what they've delivered is about what Ryan promised when he took over.  By that time, they'd virtually scrapped the entire project and restarted, now that WOTC had completely changed their minds.  Then Hasbro sells the license out from underneath them, which certainly didn't help matters.


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## PeterDonis (Aug 23, 2002)

I gave it a "C", and the only reason I didn't grade it lower is that there's enough basic structure there that the future potential of the product is much better than this disappointing first release. What's really aggravating is that so many of the things that were left out (one major example: user-created stuff, feats, items, whatever, doesn't modify *any* stats unless you go in and tweak the database by hand) could have been included with very little additional effort compared to what must have already been put in--it would have taken me a lot less time to add the additional code to support letting user-created feats and items modify stats, for example, than to do all the data entry that had to be done to get the Access database to its current state. I'll use my copy of the program, and I won't return it, and I'll continue to follow the upgrades--but if I worked for Fluid or WotC, I'd be embarrassed that this product got out the door the way it is.


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## Nightstorm (Aug 24, 2002)

well now that I've been put down, I am glad that someone here mentioned PCGen. I went to the website the day after the Tools came out and you know what? The free one was 20times better. so we have people that put together a program for free that is far better than a group that were paid to create a program that the public was than charged $40. It's a point that can not be argued.


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## Big Daddy (Aug 24, 2002)

*PCGen???  You're kidding, right?*

Look Nightstorm, I've given PCGen a shot, but it's a hell of a lot harder to use and now days, they've been crippled to comply with the D20 License.  

So yes I CAN AND WILL argue this with you everyday of the week!   Let's not forget that when PCGen and even RPM came out they BOTH SUCKED THE BIG ONE!!!  

GOOD GOD MAN!  eTools has been out less than a month!  Give it a chance!


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## Nightstorm (Aug 25, 2002)

Nope I win the argument.


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## Big Daddy (Aug 25, 2002)

What argument?  How can you win an argument that you said could not be argued with?  What, are you like 13?  

So there!      Now I can act like I'm 13 too!


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## drothgery (Aug 25, 2002)

Nightstorm said:
			
		

> *This is coming from someone that knows  nothing about programing. But it seems to me that in the year 2002 with the level of computer software we have now that making a program that generates characters should not be that hard to do. Am I missing something?*




Quite a few things, actually. Others have mentioned how much the moving target problem slowed e-Tools, so I won't comment on that.

While using the latest tools would have helped considerably, though it would take time to get up to speed with them. An object-oriented, garbage-collected programming language with a strong GUI class library would be best for this kind of job, but programmers at a game-focused company like Fluid are unlikely to be familiar with that kind of programming. It's mostly practiced in C++ inside of major commercial software companies (yes, this means Microsoft), and in Visual Basic (and to a lesser extent C#, VB.NET, and Java) building internal apps at nearly every mid-sized to large company in America.

IMO, the best tools today for C/C++ guys on a Windows platform -- which I'm assuming Fluid's team were -- would be the C# language and Visual Studio.NET. But I'm guessing that they wrote the program in C++ using Visual C++, because it was the language they knew best, and because VS.NET wasn't out when they started the project. Switching tools wouldn't speed them up right away, though, because it takes time to become familiar with a new style of programming, a new language, a new development environment, and to a new major class library. And they'd make a lot of mistakes by trying to write C++ in C#. Note right here that this means the program wouldn't work on Windows 95.

Since I'm one of those boring corprate guys builds internal apps all the time (and I'm really good with VB.NET, which is in most cases just as functional as C#, but easier for someone who's spent the last three years working in Visual Basic like me), I'll bet if I really worked at it, I could make a chargen program that worked for the kind of characters that I play and was useable *for me* on *my PC*.

But... 

I love toolbars and hate menus; I don't know how a UI that I like would play out with other people, and I don't have access to a diverse set of testers. I'm a terrible artist, so many of the toolbar buttons would be mind-bogglingly ugly. Certainly the documentation would suck; I would have wrote the thing, so I know how to do everything with it. I might declare out of hand that you can't build a character with more than three classes, because who the heck does that, anyway? Items that were hard to code in might not be in the program unless I needed them for a character that I was working on. I really don't like half-orcs, so I wouldn't hurry with putting them in. And since rangers got the shaft, and I'm a Wheel of Time nut anyway, the Woodsman goes in... anyway, that's the kind of thing that's covered in the 'for me' part.

Getting install programs to work right can be painful for a lot of reasons. My program might very well look terrible if you weren't using a 19" monitor at 1152 x 864 x 32bit color under Windows 2000. That's what I use; you probably don't. Testing with large fonts, odd resolutions and color depths, every supported OS -- and this includes the non-US English versions, even if you're not translating anything -- is a massive effort for any commercial product. And I'd have to test on computers both much faster and much slower than mine, and those with considerably less memory. Which is the 'on my PC' part of the equation.

Anyway, dealing with both the 'for me' and the 'on my PC' problem are only parially dealt with even by the latest development tools, you still need good design and testing to deal with that. Which is why it takes a lot longer to develop a commercial product than a roughly equivalent one-off program that you'd write for yourself or some specific client.


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## Nightstorm (Aug 25, 2002)

Gee thanks. That sheds all kinds of light on the subject. Thank you for using a vocabuary far above me. Reminds me of my time working the art gallery circuit when the artists would use art speak to make those uneducated in art feel little.  I will defend PCGen for many reasons but the one remains the same. The People at PCGen( and I have no Idea who "they" are) have done what they have done by a labor of love. Love for the game and a desire to share that with others. Yes alot of what they had was taken away by WOTC. But the fact is that even though it isnt as easy to use, it still outdoes E-tools and it shoudnt. And what about the program that everyone sing praises of? you cannot use anything outside of the three core books. How many years has this game been out ? Two? You can dick people around only so much . I guess if I want the rest of the feats, prestige classes , and what not I'll have to wait a few more years for the second disk to come out. Oh but wait I will not have to.All I have to do is spend my time online getting patches made by fans who have spent hours of time putting info into a program that should already be there.What am I getting at? It would be nice that I, a person that has already spent over 3oo dollars in gaming books could get a computer program that made creating characters for the game easier. And that includes being able to use ALL of the info from the books I've bought. Am I mad? YOU BETTER BELIEVE IT.  The fact that I've spent time replying to this over three times has wasted far too much of my time. So there. I've said what Ive said and that is it .


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## Wraith101 (Aug 25, 2002)

I know this has probably been answered in other threads but i diddn't know it couldn't do templates. Diddn't they say it could when they said only core classes and so forth.

I am confused....

Oh and by the way, i am currently completing a year 12 programming course (that i am terrible at by the way) using Java.

I agree with the install comments but it is not that hard to create a character generator, i have made a few myself, using databases and stuff. Of course they are pretty crappy, but if i can do that i think professional programmers could make a program capable of that!


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## drothgery (Aug 25, 2002)

Note that I haven't seen PCGen or e-Tools, and I have built character generators for older editions of D&D. Right now I think that a pencil and paper works well enough for my needs, especially since half the characters I create are for d20 Wheel of Time rather than D&D, so I haven't bought E-Tools.

I haven't gone near PCGen because I have a much more strict understanding of IP law than the PCGen team does. 

I did get a little jargon-heavy. but to sum up...

1) The 'best' tools for building the kind of program E-Tools is and what Fluid actually used probably aren't the same, because the best tools for what Fluid usually does (games) aren't the same as the best tools for building boring-looking business apps. And it takes _time_ to switch tools, no matter how good you are at programming.

2) Testing is a pain. Ensuring that a program works well on the absolutely huge variety of PCs out there is difficult even for the simplest of programs.

3) Building installation routines is a form of torture.

4) Getting something that works for you up to commercial quality is a lot more work than you think.

5) Moving targets really slow you down.


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## WizarDru (Aug 25, 2002)

Nightstorm said:
			
		

> *But the fact is that even though it isnt as easy to use, it still outdoes E-tools and it shoudnt. And what about the program that everyone sing praises of? you cannot use anything outside of the three core books. *




It shouldn't?  Why not?  I'm guessing you're not a big fan of Linus Torvald, then?  (and just so I'm not accused of speaking over your head, I'll save you the google search...he's the fella for whom Linux is named).  An open source project that is as well-run as PCgen is should easily be able to contend with a small company like Fluid.  PCgen has a stated design intent and hasn't changed direction radically during development.  They have a larger group to perform the work, and they can collectively call upon a huge base of developers to work on the task.  PCgen is an example of well the open source approach works.

You also seem to equate 'trying to make a reasonable assessment of' with 'sings the praises of'.  I currently use both tools.  eTools has some serious flaws in it, the greatest of which is the lack of Templates.  This is a serious mistake, and it costs the program big-time.  This hardly makes it useless and flawed beyond reason.

Further, I'm guessing you haven't used PCGen that extensively, either.  I personally think PCgen has made ENORMOUS strides from it's earlier releases. So much so, that it is extremely useful...but it has it's share of bugs and flaws, too.  That you haven't discovered these doesn't mean they aren't there.  The more rules that exist, the more complex the model will have to be.  Both tools apprach the problem from different directions, and have varying degrees of success with different tasks.

If you are disappointed in eTools, and there's no reason you shouldn't be, then by all means state your dissatisfaction.  But don't be suprised if you make a bald-faced statement in ignorance of how software development works, and then get called on it by people more knowledgable than yourself on the subject.

As for spending $300 on the game....well, so what?  When was it promised to you that an electronic tool would be given to you?  Surely you don't think you're owed such a thing?  You'd be justified to complain that an inadequate tool has been delivered to you, but I don't think you've got a leg to stand on, if your main source of contention is that you should expect it based on previous sales.  No one bought their D&D books expecting an electronic tool to come along later...they bought them to play a game.  Not content to wait for someone else to give them something, my players developed an Excel spreadsheet using some complicated tables to calculate everything they need.  If I didn't have eTools or PCgen, I'd just pen and paper and fudge it a tad.  

Come to think of it, the PCgen folks did that from the start.


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## JoeGKushner (Aug 26, 2002)

I've only made a few characters with it.  While I don't use everything under the sun to built my characters, I can see that E-Tools is going to have problems with it.  Fortunately, I do know Access and own it so I'm not quite as handicapped as others may be with that.

On the other hand, it's beyond baffling that they left out some core elements of customization like templates and the ability to add classes and prestige classes.

It's okay but its not going to change the way I game.

It's pretty good for generating stat blocks too.  As a GM, I find that I need lots of these.


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## collin (Aug 26, 2002)

Given that the Player's Handbook comes with a character generator CD-ROM, I'd say don't waste the $30 unless you are real handy with using Access, don't mind the bugs (I've come across 2 already) and don't mind that the user interface looks like something out of Windows 3.1.   This is what happens in a computer software developing company when you have a product that goes thru 3 different creative teams, each time starting from scratch, ultimately comes up with nothing, then whipping something together in 1 month.
-Collin


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## TheAuldGrump (Aug 27, 2002)

I am giving it a 'D'. It's not hopeless but it should/could have been better. A friend of mine bought it, making me sorry for him and glad for me, he is now stuck with it and I'm not. (The store he purchased it at has a 'replace with same' policy in regards to returned software.)

     With a LOT of support it can become a useful piece of software. It currently does not do as much as PCGen, on the other hand PCGen did not have to go back to square one and rethink the whole thing halfway through. (Until, perhaps, now. Getting the program OGL compliant is going to take some doing.)

     However as it stands now it is terribly overpriced, difficult to use, and underpowered. The overpriced part is the only really nasty bit, I could have sworn that they were going to drop the price when they dropped so many of the functions. Of course they still had to pay for better than a year of development.

     The difficult to use bit may be fixed with a good online manual, if one ever comes out. Having a steep learning curve and no documentation to speak of is a really bad combination.

     The underpowered portion may be fixed as people add to the information base, ony time will tell. Certainly they will have to sell a fair number of copies to build up the kind of public support that will be required to fix all the problems.

     Meanwhile, I am sticking with PCGen, which has the benefit of already having a broad base of public support. (Even though it does run pretty darned slow on older machines.)

The Auld Grump


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## RodneyThompson (Aug 29, 2002)

I gave E-Tools a D because it lacks features that I think are essential. If they added the following features, I'd probably give it a B:
The ability to add new prestige classes
The ability to use templates
The ability to add new templates
Formatted stat blocks
The ability to add abilities that grant +1 caster level
The ability to add new feats and have them able to modify more than just a few aspects of a character
The ability to add new spell types
The ability to switch between databases
The ability to actually input a new spell without generating an error
I want to have the ability to do those things, and I don't think there's any reason to think these are unreasonable.


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## Kid Charlemagne (Aug 30, 2002)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> *
> It's okay but its not going to change the way I game.
> 
> It's pretty good for generating stat blocks too.  As a GM, I find that I need lots of these. *




As a player, E-Tools isn't going to be all that helpful until it is able to be more easily added to.

As a DM, I'm using it extensively, however.  I can live with possible errors in some monster stat blocks, since I can fix those (although a few are _way_ off).  I've used the race creation quite a bit, and I've statted up most of my NPC's using E-Tools for the past couple of game sessions.  It saves me time, although I'm somewhat affected by lack of prestige classes at this point.  I haven't experimented with modifying the database yet - I may download some of the stuff out there and give it a try this weekend.

I concur with those who are baffled at the lack of templates - that's inexcusable.  Ability to modify classes and PrC's is a big deal, too, but I can accept that, considering all that this thing went through.

I don't understand complaints about pricing, however.  I'm not aware of very many software apps out there that cost $29.99 off the bat.  It seems very reasonable to me, and if it had had more features, I'd have gladly paid $50.

I hope that it sells well enough to get some official support, although I think the greatest value of this will come from user-created tools and additions.

Bottom Line:  I use it.


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## Vpenman (Sep 4, 2002)

Just moving this back to the first page to see how the ratings go.


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## Vpenman (Sep 7, 2002)

Bumping back to first page.  Last time.


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## WayneLigon (Sep 10, 2002)

I give it a 'D'

1. No templates. Templates are an essencial part of the game, for creating encounters. This alone is enough to give it a 'D'. 

2. I'm probably just stupid, but I can't for the life of me figure out how to create a custom encounter table, like the one on DMG136.


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## Erithtotl (Sep 11, 2002)

*This discussion puzzles me*

I see a lot of people commenting how the e-tools don't measure up.  I see some people talking about how what they want shouldn't be so hard to develop.  I see other people defending the developers.

Defending the product by saying the design and team changed 3 times during the production process isn't a valid argument.  Yes, this is a good defense for the development team, and if I was on that team I would probably say that.  But it is not a valid excuse for a PRODUCT, or the company that releases that product.  If you buy a product, any product, software or otherwise, and it doesn't provide the value you believe it should, you don't give a damn whether the company was having internal problems.  Those are their problems, not the consumers.

The argument that these guys are game programmers and thus probably used the wrong tool for the job is again, only partially valid.  First, if you're going to build a product, you better know HOW to build it.  If Fluid got themselves into a bad situation by offering to develop a product that they weren't competant to develop, then thats their fault.  Additionally, I'm sure they had some people on staff who now how to develop utility applications, or at least design them, and they could have brought in new employees (believe me, there are TONS of people looking for work or who would be willing to take this job in the market right now).  Finally, it just ain't that hard to switch from C++ to C# .NET (I switched my entire development team from VB and SQL Server to C# and VB.Net and Oracle and rewrote our entire product in six months), but thats not even necissary as Microsoft Office apps and most other Windows applications are written in Visual C++, so the argument that it was the wrong tool for the job doesn't hold up.  Additionally, there are some other products, like Delphi, which are well suited for building this sort of thing.

I have seen a lot of comments of 'Well, if you think its so easy why don't you build it yourself!'.  That is ridiculous.  Someone PAID the programmers of this software to develop a commercial product.  You guys want to pool up half a million dollars between you and I'll happily write a superior program.  When you're paid to produce a product, and it is your job, you are undoubtedly held to a higher standard.

I haven't used E-tools yet.  I have used PCGen.  And I've read reviews of E-tools.  From what they've described, a small (say, 5 person) team of quality programmers could develop a superior application in a few months.  

Taken on its own, it seems the tool is just the wrong thing for the market.  Basically, the market for E-Tools is the same market as the people who bought the DM's guide.  Any amount of market research probably would have shown that the average DM probably invests hundreds of dollars and even more hours on D&D.  Given that, they should have realized that what DMs want is a more comprehensive product, even if that product costs $75 or more, rather than an extremely limited product that only costs $30.  If we're willing to pay $40 for Forgotten Realms or the Epic Level Handbook, don't you think we're willing to pay a lot more than that to computerize the dozens of hours of tedious pen and paper preperation we have to go through?  It seems they underestimated their market in addition to botching the product.


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## Nightstorm (Sep 12, 2002)

arial 

It brings me to tears of joy to see the people on this board wiseing up to the tragic thing called E-tools. I have been using Pc gen only to find out that at one time it had ALL the guidebooks feats,spells,Prestige classes in it until recently. Now Im not one to ask illigal things from others, BUT if anyone has the old downloads, could he/she please email me with it?


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## Airwolf (Sep 24, 2002)

*GPA updated*

I just updated the GPA, see above, in case anyone still cares. 



Regards,
Airwolf


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## Breakdaddy (Sep 25, 2002)

I think etools lacks some very basic elements. The most glaring flaw I saw right when I fired it up and started making a human fighter 8 was the lack of multiple attacks being represented on the character sheet or statblock. Now I know that this has been fixed by fans since then, but it is only one of many problems that I found irksome and downright shameful. On a brighter note, Im glad to see that etools has some raving fanboys already.


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## Hardhead (Sep 26, 2002)

> Look Nightstorm, I've given PCGen a shot, but it's a hell of a lot harder to use and now days, they've been crippled to comply with the D20 License.




First, the current iteration of PCGen is *much* more usable than older ones.  The GUI is nice and clean and mostly intuitive.  You really ought to give it a try.

As for not having all the non-SRD stuff, that's true.  It no longer has Sword and Fist in it, for instance, but hey.  Neither does e-tools.  Sure, you can use a fan-created database, but you can do that with PCGen too.  And you can do it better.

Show me a fan-created add on for e-tools that has Monkey Grip in it.  Go on, I dare you.  It doesn't exist, because e-tools can't handle it.  I have Monkey Grip working in PCGen right now.

Plus, to edit e-tools databases, you need MS Acess, a program a *lot* of people don't have.  For PCGen, you just need a text editor.

In short, technically speaking PCGen is vastly superior.  It can handle a far larger variety of feats than e-tools can.

It's more easily customizable.  You don't need MS Acess, and you don't need to hand-tweak the database to get user-created stuff to show up on character sheets.  

It's easier to use.  This is a matter of opinion, obviously, but I feel the new iteration of PCGen is easier to use then e-tools.  It has hover-help and everything.  

And, of course, PCGen is free, while e-tools costs money.

So aside from the GUI, which is a matter of opinion, in what way does e-tools possibly outdo PCGen?


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## Fast Learner (Sep 26, 2002)

Hardhead said:
			
		

> *Plus, to edit e-tools databases, you need MS Acess, a program a *lot* of people don't have.  For PCGen, you just need a text editor.*



Actually, you don't. Theres a free tool out there that lets you edit Access-based databases. It's been mentioned in several eTools threads. Since I have Access I've not used it, but it does exist.



> *So aside from the GUI, which is a matter of opinion, in what way does e-tools possibly outdo PCGen? *




XML output, which I need for another tool I'm working on. Monster advancement. Treasure generation. Table generation including the ability to automatically create entire encounters, not just a single creature.

I'm certainly not claiming either tool is ultimately better; just answering your question.


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## Hardhead (Sep 27, 2002)

> XML output, which I need for another tool I'm working on.




Hmmm.  OK, it doesn't have that one, I'll give you.  I think they're working on it, but I'm not sure.



> Monster advancement.




PCGen has this.  Just add "levels" of Dragon, or Humanoid, or Magical Beast or whatever type of creature it is.



> Treasure generation.




If you mean just creating treasure, PCGen does this, and supports far more than e-tools.  If you mean random treasure generation, that's true, PCGen doesn't do that.



> Table generation including the ability to automatically create entire encounters, not just a single creature.




What do you mean by "creatue entire encounter?"  You can create multiple creatures in PCGen, and even if you can't export their stat blocks to the same document, it's pretty easy to copy-and-paste them into the same word doc.  Or do you mean random encoutners?


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## Morik (Sep 27, 2002)

Actually I gave E-Tools a 'C' as most of the people, I think.
And I believe that's what E-Tools is all about - it's an average product (for now, but that could be easily change into a 'A' Product, IMHO).

The fact I grade it to C is not based mostly on the features of E-Tools itself, but of the lack of user support from Fluid.

Take a middle-sized Computer Game Company or even a huge one like Electronic Arts. They all (maybe there are some exceptions) are trying to bring out a patch asap after releasing their software. This is considered to be standard (and E-tools brought out a software and they invested time like Blizzard for
Warcraft - almost  ;-)

May I miss something but Fluid didn't bring out a patch or something else so far, correct?

And now to the comparison of PCGen and E-Tools:

In my opinion E-Tools has strength and weaknesses and PCGen too. I'm using PCGen right now instead of E-Tools. Why? Well... because PCGen were first out (long first out before E-Tools) and I'm now used to it. For me it's easy and fast to use.

There are some fields which E-Tools (IMHO) does better than PCGen, for instance the monster advancement. I find it faster and easier than in PCGen.

What I'm missing in E-Tools is the lack of Prestige Classes and IN PARTICLUAR the Campaign World 'Forgotten Realms'. I'm playing with the realms since it came out. It's like my youth of Roleplaying since I first rolled the dice for damage. 

Now PCGen doesn't longer support FR and the Wotc Supplements (this is sad but not all is lost for me, hehe)!!

So my 'C' grade refelects that fact too:
I'm missing all the supplements, campaign Worlds and such of WOTC products and before I forget it: The fantastic Dragon Magazine.

What I would like to see for istance wourld be a monthly add on with Dragon Magazine Prestige Classes, Magic Items and so on.
The same for new supplements (and old ones of course) etc..

I knew this is like spending a wish from those rare 'Rings' but hey,
if I would have one then maybe I would wish for it ;-)

Eric


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## Klintus Fang (Sep 29, 2002)

drothgery said:
			
		

> *
> ...talking about ovject oriented programming languages, garbage collection, and advocating C#... *




I completely disagree.  I do agree that an object oriented approach is what should be used for such a project, but that is what C++ is.  C# doesn't add anything new in that respect that a tool like this actually needs.  On top of that C# is new, and has yet to prove itself in the market place.  No major commercial software product has yet been written in C#.  Why then would it be the "best choice?".   Until it has proven itself in the market place there's no way it could be the best choice for any kind of project.  I'm not saying it's a bad choice but to imply it was a bad choice not to use C# doesn't make any sense. 

My 2cents on C#:
C# is a language that is compiled at runtime (its really nothing more than Microsofts variation on Java).  That along leads me to suggest it would be a bad idea to use it for a tool like this.   I would suggest using C++ with a Visual Basic frontend.  I don't know if that is what they did.


That said, I do agree with other programmers who have suggested that the design of the program's internal data structures was probably not the best design.  I haven't seen them of course, but one can infer some things about there design from the things that fluid have said on their message boards.  Fluid's answer to why there is no template support and why you cannot "roll back" class levels was "that would require a complete rewrite of the data structures".  It follows that the internal data structures were not well planned (in my opinion).

But I'm not faulting fluid for this.  The project had its direction changed multiple times by WoTC who contracted fluid to do it.  There's really no way to know if the weaknessess are the fault of Fluid's programming approach, or the fault of WoTC's management of the project.

That said:  I gave the program a C.  I'd give it a B if I had faith that it was going to have continued support and development.  Because in that case it would be safe to assume the weaknesses would be fixed eventually.  But I have no such faith.


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## Klintus Fang (Sep 29, 2002)

On the subject of PCGen:  I've seen character sheets created by PCGen and they are impressive (vastly superior to those created by Etools if you use the xsl files provided by fluid in the Etools distribution).

The problem with PCGen is that on my lower end machines it runs as slow as mollasses and is thus unusable on those machines.   For a simple character generator, I consider that unacceptable.  I know writing a full featured character generator is a lot of work, but there's no reason it should require a highend machine to run it.  I really wish PCGen was not written in Java.  Then I'd be intersted in it and would even consider contributing to the project, because it's a quality product (though I do dislike the interface (it's no worse than Etool's interface though!)).

Running on Java, its just too slow for my tastes.  I know its not slow on a fast machine, but I want to be able to run my character generator on my slow machine too.


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## Klaus (Sep 29, 2002)

Another feature that is sadly missing: Leveling Down. If your character loses a level to an energy drain, you'd better have the previous versions of the character saved. Otherwise you'll have to re-build your character from scratch.


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## ColonelHardisson (Sep 29, 2002)

I gave it a C. The longer I play with it, the more I dislike that some elements of D&D are missing. I'm a big fan of templates, and unless I just haven't found them yet, they aren't in e-Tools. I'm certainly no programming expert, so maybe they're there and I haven't located them. But I suspect they aren't.


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## Klintus Fang (Sep 29, 2002)

templates are not there.  There are "work arounds" for this posted on the Etools message board, but the workarounds will not work well in general, especially for templates like ghosts, where you select a random number of the special abilities, when the template is assigned.


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## Airwolf (Jan 21, 2003)

Wow, the 'GPA' has fallen to 1.80.


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## MoonSpider (Jan 23, 2003)

I really wanted to like this program, I got it as a birthday present from my parents, who knew I gamed, and knew I used my computer to write adventures .  (They don't understand DnD, but they try.)

You just can't customize it. You can't add feats, of which I have a few hundred from various sources. You can't add prestige classes, again I have a few hundred. There are no templates, and no way to add them. You can't add equipment, or at least I couldn't figure out how. You can't add races.

There is no useful manual.

There are no roll over "what is this" indicators, just obscure symbols.

It doesn't make a good statblock.

It was a year late, and still didn't do what it was originally planned to do!

What it does do it does badly.

It is going to be more than six months since the program came out before they have a gold patch. And the first patch didn't even fix the errors, just added new functions!

Some of these things have been fixed with E-Tools helper, but they shouldn't have needed fixing.

I want Master Tools! I want something that I can write an adventure with! I want a mapper and all the things Master Tools was supposed to have.

Yes, I know I'm whining, but I had such high hopes, and it didn't meet any of them.

I really hope that they come out with a new version after DnD 3.5 comes out, or they iron out any problems with PCGen and all the other programs out there, it really bothers me that they won't allow PCGen to roll the dice when creating characters, and I can't get the point buy system to work right.

I'm probably going to download and try Roleplaying Master, but frankly, it does more than I need it to, I don't want a computer at the table. (I know it doesn't make sense, I would be willing to pay the money just for the adventure writing and character generation functions, but I keep thinking that I'm paying for in game funtions that I won't use.) I'll get over that, if I can just get myself past that mental block. That and remember to set aside the money.

MoonSpider (Sorry that my first post was a whine, but I've been sitting on it for a while)


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## Klaus (Jan 23, 2003)

Moonspider:

I agree that the program lacks a lot of functions, but some of the things you want to do can be done.

To create a new race, click on the Create Race button (half-human, half-monster icon with the viking hat). There you can create any race, and that's the only way to create a templated creature. For instance, I had to create a "Human Lich" race for my lich sorceror/blackguard NPC. The downside is that you have to enter the altered stats yourself when creating a race (so a human half-dragon has a +8 Str bonus).

To create a feat, or new equipment, or new spells, or new gods/domains and stuff, click on the House Rules (little house icon) and go from there. But I warn you, some of those functions are very limited/poorly described. I tried creating a feat that allowed the character to add his Int modifier to AC (to mimic a bladesinger, since I can't add PrClasses), but there's no way of adjudicating that, it's not very intuitive.

While flawed, it can do a few things well.

For generating stat blocks, it's perfect, IMHO.


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## Airwolf (Jan 23, 2003)

MoonSpider said:
			
		

> *  ... <snip> ...
> 
> MoonSpider (Sorry that my first post was a whine, but I've been sitting on it for a while) *




Welcome to the boards MoonSpider.  I hope you are able to find a program to your liking somewhere!


Regards,
Airwolf


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## The Caped Crusader (Jan 23, 2003)

*Well, here's the run-down...*

This tool works best if you are sticking to the core rule books. If that's all you're using, then when you'll get the most out of it. The farther away from the core books you get, the harder this tool will be to use.


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## Chacal (Jan 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MoonSpider _ it really bothers me that they won't allow PCGen to roll the dice when creating characters, and I can't get the point buy system to work right.




What version of pcgen do you use ? 
I never had problems with the point buy, do you use standard DMG pointbuy or something else ? 
I'll be glad to help, and you could probably found assistance in the pcgen yahoo group:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen

Chacal


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## MoonSpider (Jan 30, 2003)

*PCGen and Point buy*

I use version 4.2.7 of PCGen, it won't allow me to purchase anything below 10 for the abilities, even though I have the minimum set to 8 on the preferences menu. I just found Tyger's Point Buy calculator http://tyger.xganon.com/programs/pointbuy.html which seems to do the trick, thogh I have to click it to bring the program back up after entering the numbers to PCGen. He has a few other handy programs on his site, especially for Spycraft, which I don't play yet.

Mostly I like PCGen, and check back about once a month to see what's been updated. Thanks for all the hard work being put in by Code Monkeys and all. The customization functions are coming along and I hope to be able to add stuff to my copy soon.

As for E-Tools I didn't see the create Race tab, though I thought that I had tried every button. I either hadn't or hit some of them at the wrong times.I still haven't gotten a Statblock I liked out of it, but I have pretty much given up on it.  I hope they have a better program for 3.5 but I'm not counting on it.

I use several books that aren't part of the core WOTC line. I  run a Scarred Lands game, and play in a Rokugan game. I know that PCGen doesn't currently have tham either, though I gather PCGen did have Scarred Lands before I started using it. 

How is Roleplaying Master for adventure writing? Does anyone have an adventure written with it as an example? If not it might be a good idea to have on the RPM web site, the free adventure alone might draw people in! I haven't tried it out yet, waiting for the new database to be finished, but it looks like it may do what I want. And can it import maps from Dungeoncrafter or Dungeoncrafter 2, it looks like it can, but I just wanted to ask.

Sorry for whining before, it was kind of embarrassing.  Thanks for the help.  I only get online about once a week or so, so thanks for your patience!


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## mikey6990 (Jan 30, 2003)

Moonspider,

RPM does have a sample adventure on the website.  You just need to look in the sample reports area.  Most all RPM output is called a report.  This sample adventure is also distributed with RPM so that you can see where everything in the printout is within the adventure writer.  

I own RPM, Campaign Suite, and DM Genie.  I suggest you try all three (they all have a demo version) and see which one you like.  The main thing I have to say is give RPM a chance.  The interface is more confusing and harder to grasp than the other two, but it probably has the most functionality (IMHO).  DM Genie is the easiest to use by a UI standpoint, but Campaign Suite is clean and efficient.  Campaign Suite also is just a preparation tool, not game-time aid so you won't be buying anything you don't need. 

If you have anymore questions about these, just ask.

Mike


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## Chacal (Jan 31, 2003)

*Re: PCGen and Point buy*



			
				MoonSpider said:
			
		

> *I use version 4.2.7 of PCGen, it won't allow me to purchase anything below 10 for the abilities, even though I have the minimum set to 8 on the preferences menu.
> *



When entering the pointbuymethod in the preferences, did you use the "-" button to start below 10 ?  
Perhaps you could post your pointbuymethods.lst (in the system directory).
I'm using standard DMG pointbuy and I can make half orcs NPC with 6 Int and Charisma , or trolls with less than that  

 Chacal


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## Luke (Jan 31, 2003)

*Re: PCGen and Point buy*



			
				MoonSpider said:
			
		

> *How is Roleplaying Master for adventure writing? Does anyone have an adventure written with it as an example? If not it might be a good idea to have on the RPM web site, the free adventure alone might draw people in! I haven't tried it out yet, waiting for the new database to be finished, but it looks like it may do what I want. And can it import maps from Dungeoncrafter or Dungeoncrafter 2, it looks like it can, but I just wanted to ask.
> *




There's a sample adventure report here . Its a reasonable demonstration showing adventure details (plot etc), maps, location descriptions and encounters with statblocks.
Its an HTML report, with links so you can jump around the adventure.
Alternatively, you can play in-game, using the maps as Battlemaps, with full in-game support for attcks, skill checks, saves, XP calc etc.

RPM comes with a built-in tilemapper, but others have shown me their RPM adventures with some really nice maps imported from their DungeonCrafter creations. You can import practically any image, and I've seen imported CC2 castle demos that looked really good too.

Regards,


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## TheAuldGrump (Feb 1, 2003)

Hmmmm, looks good to me. I didn't notice the adventure report while I was looking at RPM, but it looks real good. I had sort of the same problem as Moonspider regarding buying a tool for in game use. But it does look like it would do the job. 

Like Moonspider I am a big fan of DungeonCrafter,will you be able to import from DC2 when it is finished? I know that it uses a completly different format from DC1, saving each layer seperately.

I tried Campaign Suite, but just couldn't get comfortable with it. (Maybe because I am so comfortable with Word Perfect. I can't help but compare any tool to what I am already comfortable/happy with. Sometimes complacency stifles change.)

When do you think the new database etc. will be in the demo? I think I'll hold off until then before trying RPM out. (I don't want to base my opinion off of dated information.)

The Auld Grump


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## Luke (Feb 1, 2003)

TheAuldGrump said:
			
		

> *Like Moonspider I am a big fan of DungeonCrafter,will you be able to import from DC2 when it is finished? I know that it uses a completly different format from DC1, saving each layer seperately.
> *



The DungeonCrafter guys actually turn out to be part of the same multi-national company as me. Their progress seems pretty slow, and I offered many months back to abandon my tilemapper and join them in furthering DungeonCrafter. Understandably, they wanted to continue on their own, but it really doesn't affect your ability to use DungeonCrafter images in RPM at all.

You can paste anything from the clipboard into RPM (the old Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V trick). Programs like CC2 or DungeonCrafter typically have a "Save Bitmap" option, and you can also load in files saved that way.
I sometimes do a "touch up" in the simple PaintBrush app that comes with Windows, then paste directly into RPM.

One of the nicest features is to find *any* image on the web that you like (a free map from the Wizards map-a-week for example), and simply right-click on the image in your browser and choose "Copy". The image is then in your clipboard, and you can paste directly into RPM.

With *any* image, at its most difficult, simply do a *printscreen* of any image you can view, and then paste into PaintBrush for tuch ups, or directly into RPM.
Once you get around the concept of copy and paste, or saving BMP files, its *real easy* to use images from any other programs in something like RPM.



			
				TheAuldGrump said:
			
		

> When do you think the new database etc. will be in the demo? I think I'll hold off until then before trying RPM out. (I don't want to base my opinion off of dated information.)
> [/B]



Its well worth holding off for 3.0, which I'll release by tomorrow night. Testers have been very generous with their time (they're generally quite excited about the new program), going through the new RPM in *much* greater detail than ever before. Though I intended the next version to be more about a switch to a different, incorruptable database manager, its a lot more than. The new version includes greatly enhanced features (especially the genrators/lists), and includes generally thorough testing of all features. If you were one of the people with a computer system that exposed stability problems in the previous version of RPM, this will seem like a completely different program to you. 

Sorry about the weeks delay, for those waiting. My real job (the one putting food on the table) had me working 18 hours days for 6 days straight, and I'm only just coming out of the consequential "jet lag" etc now.

Regards,


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## TheAuldGrump (Feb 1, 2003)

Heh, great news on the new version of RPM! Definitely holding off a few more days.

And Moonspider: When you entered the numbers for Point Buy did you remember to change the points costs as well as the Min/Max? I remember that a few versions ago I forgot that detail and kept gettin 'Cannot lower stat below 10 in purchase mode'. (Just recreated the error a few minutes ago, it seemed familiar when you described it.) I don't think the current version of PCGen likes negative points costs.

The Auld Grump

*Edit - Oops entered Point Buy when I meant Purchase Mode in PCGen, I just generally call it point buy in my mind. Point Buy, by Tyger is also a nice program, though I use PCGen more. *


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## TheAuldGrump (Feb 1, 2003)

Luke said:
			
		

> *
> The DungeonCrafter guys actually turn out to be part of the same multi-national company as me. Their progress seems pretty slow, and I offered many months back to abandon my tilemapper and join them in furthering DungeonCrafter. Understandably, they wanted to continue on their own, but it really doesn't affect your ability to use DungeonCrafter images in RPM at all. *




They started picking up speed again around Christmas, new beta, and the Journal has been updated several times a week since then. Another program that I am really looking forward to. Aside from Word Perfect DC is the program I use most when preparing for my games. 

Long list of other programs I use. StatBlock Generator by Whitelaw, Jamis Buck's Treasure Generator, Izandwo for town maps, Fractal Mapper for land maps, PCGen for NPCs (I use Purchase mode for NPCs), Demigod for rules reference, and Word Perfect to fit everything together. Oh, and the Kinko's file prep tool to get it ready for printing. (Cheaper than using my color printer, my Lexmark gulps ink right down...) Whew!

The Auld Grump, heading to bed...


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## D'karr (Feb 1, 2003)

A friend of mine got E-Tools.  After working with it for a while we were both very disappointed.  It was returned.

I've used one of the older beta versions of RPM.  For me it just had too confusing of an UI.  It provided just too many options and it was unclear how to make the views less cluttered.  However,  I know those problems have been fixed in the newer versions.  I would recommend RPM to anyone trying to use their machine to DM at the table.

I've been using PCGen since version 2.1.  The UI has always been its weakest link.  However, I've gotten used to it so it just keeps getting better and better.  There are many complaints about speed, fortunately I've never had problems with its speed and I don't have a speed demon machine either.

BTW, the latest version of PCGen (4.29) included the first functional lst editors.  They are still hard to work with because you need to understand the tags the program uses to define certain things but it is a very impressive start.  I still find that using a text editor and a copied lst file works very well.

So in all I can't really recommend E-Tools.  For the price you would expect something that provides better support for customization.  It would also have been nice if it came with a manual.


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## MoonSpider (Feb 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by Auld Grump: And Moonspider: When you entered the numbers for Point Buy did you remember to change the points costs as well as the Min/Max? I remember that a few versions ago I forgot that detail and kept gettin 'Cannot lower stat below 10 in purchase mode'. (Just recreated the error a few minutes ago, it seemed familiar when you described it.) I don't think the current version of PCGen likes negative points costs.
> 
> The Auld Grump
> 
> *Edit - Oops entered Point Buy when I meant Purchase Mode in PCGen, I just generally call it point buy in my mind. Point Buy, by Tyger is also a nice program, though I use PCGen more. *




Thanks Grumpy, that fixed the problem.  I had just added lower numbers to the point buy without changing costs *Blond Grin*

Aren't you on the Dungeon Crafter board too?

MoonSpider


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## TheAuldGrump (Feb 5, 2003)

MoonSpider said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Thanks Grumpy, that fixed the problem.  I had just added lower numbers to the point buy without changing costs *Blond Grin*
> 
> ...




Your welcome and, ummm, yes?

The Auld Grump, not really grumpy, just optimism impaired....


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