# Heroes #4--I Am Become Death/Oct 2008



## Truth Seeker (Oct 6, 2008)

I Am Become Death

Writers:Aron Eli Coliete

Director:Adam Kane

Stars:Cristine Rose (Angela Petrelli)
Greg Grunberg (Matt Parkman)
Zachary Quinto (Sylar)
Adrian Pasdar (Nathan Petrelli)
Ali Larter (Tracy Strauss)
Ali Larter (Niki Sanders)
Hayden Panettiere (Claire Bennet)
Masi Oka (Hiro Nakamura)
Sendhil Ramamurthy (Mohinder Suresh)
James Kyson Lee (Ando Masahashi)
Dania Ramirez (Maya Herrera)
Jack Coleman (Noah Bennet)
Milo Ventimiglia (Peter Petrelli)

Recurring Role:Randall Bentley (Lyle Bennet)
Ashley Crow (Sandra Bennet)
Ronald Guttman (TBA)
Jimmy Jean-Louis (The Haitian)
Jessalyn Gilsig (Meredith Gordon)
Adair Tishler (Molly Walker)
Brea Grant (Daphne Millbrook)
David Anders (Adam Monroe)
Malcolm McDowell (Daniel Linderman)

Guest Star:Thomas Robinson (TBA)
Jamie Hector (Benjamin "Knox" Washington)

Peter adapts a dangerous ability in order to save the world, HRG gets rid of his partner, and Hiro and Ando want to find out who hired Daphne.​


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## Brown Jenkin (Oct 6, 2008)

I am not as looking forward to this episodeas usual since Mr. Super-Stupidity is being featured tonight. Other than that I do wonder what they will bring us next.


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## rowport (Oct 7, 2008)

ROCK ON!  That was *GREAT*!

I did not even mind the Mohinder/Maya parts tonight-- she was reduced to eye candy, which the actress is very good at, so no more lousy acting.  Mohinder moves into "The Fly" of course, but no surprises there.

BUT!

I did not see the rest coming *at all*.  Nice to see there are still some surprises left in the show, even as it redoes some plot points.  I will leave this post spoiler-free.  But, check it out at NBC.com if you missed it-- worth watching.


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## Steel_Wind (Oct 7, 2008)

There were elements to this episode that were interesting sure, but ... in order to get there (or perhaps, just along the way) the writers seem to feel the need to break with established convention or require us to accept stupid things happening in order to reach the destination.   There is a phrase for that in serial dramas. It's a technical term of art called *bad writing.*

I'm talking about:

how does FP die from two bullets to the chest? (I saw nothing in his head - not that there is any good reason to believe that would even work, but...still);
why does Future Gabriel stand by and do nothing while his son is killed? Sure, I get the hunger and guilt and fighting the internal demons thing - but his son was in plain and obvious *danger*; and 
how does Future Claire go to Costa Verde, threaten  - and actually kill her 3.5 yr old cousin, have Future Gabriel go nuclear over that - and then rationally  - or even _irrationally_ - blame Present Peter for that result?

There were a few others - but that will do for now.

When the writers on Heroes require us to jump through hoops to arrive at these results - they are just doing it WRONG.


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## JoeGKushner (Oct 7, 2008)

I enjoyed the Gabriel bits a bit this time around so that surprises me.

The rest?

"He's going to meet Sylar! Let's not take the Haitian! After all, what's the worst that could happen?"


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## rowport (Oct 7, 2008)

JoeGKushner said:


> I enjoyed the Gabriel bits a bit this time around so that surprises me.
> 
> The rest?
> 
> "He's going to meet Sylar! Let's not take the Haitian! After all, what's the worst that could happen?"



Hey, Joe!  Your point about the power-sucking Haitian is a good one; in fact, I found myself puzzled whether he was or was not always affecting the Heroes (like when he left the room leaving The Pres with Peter).  Umm.  Good move there...

And sure, there are plot holes galore in the series.  But, I find the characters entertaining so can mostly go with the flow.  (Except Maya.  Wow, what a useless character.). I even liked Molly coming back as a background supporting "NPC.". The Peter and Future Gabriel interaction was perfect.

I do hope that Sylar is not "redeemed" in our time, though-- the dude is a mass murderer, and I am not OK with blaming that on his power's "hunger" as an excuse!


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## rowport (Oct 7, 2008)

Steel_Wind said:


> There were elements to this episode that were interesting sure, but ... in order to get there (or perhaps, just along the way) the writers seem to feel the need to break with established convention or require us to accept stupid things happening in order to reach the destination.   There is a phrase for that in serial dramas. It's a technical term of art called *bad writing.*
> 
> I'm talking about:
> 
> ...



Hey, SteelWind!  I generally agree with your point, although I am more interested in the characterization than the silly plot.  FWIW, I thought Gabriel's hesitation to act causing the "chain reaction" (heh-- watch the show...) was *good* writing, in highlighting the irony of his not wanting to use his powers leading to that.  Who is a Hero?  Who is a Villain?  I find those questions interesting even if there are some transparent plot gyrations to get there.  I find this Peter to be much more fun to watch!  I do miss the Ando and Hiro teammanship, though.


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## DonTadow (Oct 7, 2008)

A lot better than the previous episode and I a confident in the writers again.  A lot of my questions from last episode was answered in this one and i'm sure that "why was the hatian not there " will be answered, which was the only glaring question. 

As far as fp dying with two bullets to teh chest? I a not sure if you ever been shot before but most shots to the chest are fatal.  The head is too difficult of a target and knocking out major organs works just as fine as one to the brain. 

I have no idea how clair got out but again, i'm b
etting that will be explained as well.  Remember its the future, and its apparent (sylar understanding a power with opening them up) that everyone has level 20 powers.  Clair seemed to be the only one that escaped and peter, the only people who can prevent damage.  My bet is that sylar is not dead either in the future.

Also Steel, remember that we don't know what present peter did to cause this ire. As far as she's concerned he's as much a terrorist as the future terrorist. Its obvious that something snapped in clair to make her hate peter.


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## Darkwolf71 (Oct 7, 2008)

DonTadow said:


> As far as fp dying with two bullets to teh chest? I a not sure if you ever been shot before but most shots to the chest are fatal.  The head is too difficult of a target and knocking out major organs works just as fine as one to the brain.







> I have no idea how clair got out but again, i'm b
> etting that will be explained as well.  Remember its the future, and its apparent (sylar understanding a power with opening them up) that everyone has level 20 powers.  Clair seemed to be the only one that escaped and peter, the only people who can prevent damage.  My bet is that sylar is not dead either in the future.





Spoiler



It's obvious that you know Peter has Claire's regen abilities, yet you don't understand why two to the chest should not have killed Future Peter?  (Oh, and Sylar has it as well...)


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## stonegod (Oct 7, 2008)

Steel_Wind said:


> how does FP die from two bullets to the chest? (I saw nothing in his head - not that there is any good reason to believe that would even work, but...still);
> why does Future Gabriel stand by and do nothing while his son is killed? Sure, I get the hunger and guilt and fighting the internal demons thing - but his son was in plain and obvious *danger*; and
> how does Future Claire go to Costa Verde, threaten  - and actually kill her 3.5 yr old cousin, have Future Gabriel go nuclear over that - and then rationally  - or even _irrationally_ - blame Present Peter for that result?
> 
> There were a few others - but that will do for now.



Overall, I enjoyed the episode, though I did have most of those quibbles. At least I can think of the answer to the first two:
- The Hatian was there stopping FP's power, so he dies like anyone else.
- Gabe was telling Noah II to get out. Apparently too afraid of himself to do anything directly. To be fair, it was the thrown table that did the killing (nothing yet had hit him).

Of course, my big beef with that scene was, once again, the lack of use of stopping time. Guess Pete still doesn't have it under control... 

The show has good ideas, but the execution could be better. Course, I've said that about a lot of shows.


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## Relique du Madde (Oct 7, 2008)

stonegod said:


> Of course, my big beef with that scene was, once again, the lack of use of stopping time. Guess Pete still doesn't have it under control...




You forgot he could have also:
-Turned Invisible.
-Used The Haitian nullify powers (after all the haitain used it on him how many times no?)
-Phased to avoid attacks by Daphne
-Used Telepathy (to find out what caused the future)
-Electrocuted Clair to knock her out.
etc.

Honestly, if I were Peter I would have tried to master all my powers by now...


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## John Crichton (Oct 7, 2008)

Fun stuff, overall.  

Watching flawed people do flawed things with superpowers is entertaining.  

I'm glad these folks aren't robots.  Cuz they'd do everything by the book.


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## Hand of Evil (Oct 7, 2008)

Too many discrepancies and stupid acts by the characters.  Peter, has always been stupid but he has shining moments, like running and banging the Haitian over the head.  

Claire, I kind of wish she could die, just not liking the character, move on. 

Sylar is the only bright spot on the show last night. Who have like to see him cause fear in the guy he was fighting before going nuke.  Kind of wonder who his wife is?  

5/10


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## stonegod (Oct 7, 2008)

Relique du Madde said:


> You forgot he could have also:
> -Turned Invisible.
> -Used The Haitian nullify powers (after all the haitain used it on him how many times no?)
> -Phased to avoid attacks by Daphne
> ...



He should indeed. I mentioned the time thing as, aside from invisibility, its the only power he's demonstrated any consistency/mastery with (and telepathy probably wouldn't have helped defuse that situation).


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## megamania (Oct 7, 2008)

Interesting.....


Peter has always lacked a bit of confidence.  That is his "crutch".  This is what keeps him from becoming a god and taking over (without much effort) the world.

Powers seem to reflect one's personality.  The more fragmented your confidence and organizational abilities the more troubled your powers (s) and control of are.

Many "normal" people can't balance a check book.  Should we expect instant understanding and use of ones powers?  Though there should be some improvement....  but how many months have really passed?  Has it even been a year since episode one of season one as the eclipse occured?


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## megamania (Oct 7, 2008)

stonegod said:


> He should indeed. I mentioned the time thing as, aside from invisibility, its the only power he's demonstrated any consistency/mastery with (and telepathy probably wouldn't have helped defuse that situation).




and Invisibility is the only power he has had any training with (Claude) beyond the sink or swim method.  Course that is kinda how Claude taught him that I think of it....


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## Vocenoctum (Oct 7, 2008)

John Crichton said:


> Fun stuff, overall.
> 
> Watching flawed people do flawed things with superpowers is entertaining.




Watching characters that never learn (or, more accurately, repeatedly learn the same lesson) is just pointless. If character advancement is reversed at will as a plot crutch, then the advancement has no meaning. Why care if Sylar learns compassion if he will simply regress and relearn it again 3 times this season and over and over again next season?


Heroes is like a D&D campaign with the same characters, but the DM keeps changing the characters levels to fit whatever adventure he finds in the bargain bin. One week you're 15th level, the next week you're 3rd and then you're 7th, then hey, lets do 1st again...


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## Hand of Evil (Oct 7, 2008)

megamania said:


> and Invisibility is the only power he has had any training with (Claude) beyond the sink or swim method.  Course that is kinda how Claude taught him that I think of it....



But now he has the ablity and the hunger to figure out how powers work, the question is, does he have to kill for it?


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## Arnwyn (Oct 7, 2008)

Claire is one of the lamest "villains" I've ever had the misfortune to watch. Angsty, boring, and just silly. You suck, Claire! You're making the Ali Larter character (Nikki/Jessica/Tracey/please write me out already) seem more interesting. Yikes!

Nice to see a bit of personality to Sylar, even if he's (heck, most of the characters have) done a complete 180. That type of thing isn't really all that interesting, really, and yeah - _bad writing_.

At least the 'story' is starting to come together and click. Sadly, though, I think a major issue is that the story is a direct continuation from the horrible season 2. Whoops!

(Yay to seeing Adam, just 'cause I like him. And even Molly. But _more_ characters? *sob*) Stupid hope.


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## Dog Moon (Oct 7, 2008)

Relique du Madde said:


> -Phased to avoid attacks by Daphne




I thought it would have been if he had suddenly started using her powers in the middle of the fight, though I guess all you'd see would be two blurs running around the living room.  Heh.  Peter would probably use it and brain himself against the nearest wall unable to stop.


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## Steel_Wind (Oct 7, 2008)

stonegod said:


> - The Hatian was there stopping FP's power, so he dies like anyone else



.

I will accept that the suppression of Peter's abilities could keep his power of regeneration from going active - but that's only so long as he is there.

As has been pointed out, The Haitian exits the room to leave President Petrelli alone with Peter - and FP's body. At that point, FP should have come back to life.

A plot hole.



> - Gabe was telling Noah II to get out. Apparently too afraid of himself to do anything directly. To be fair, it was the thrown table that did the killing (nothing yet had hit him).




I agree with the inner demons angle to the scene - but it felt increasingly forced as the stakes were raised as the scene played out.

It also appears that Gabriel did not want to have his son see him use *any* power. So I suppose that is another reason.  Gabriel did not fear Knox, as to be blunt, given his power of super-healing, there was nothing Knox could do to him.  I suppose that is another reason.



> Of course, my big beef with that scene was, once again, the lack of use of stopping time. Guess Pete still doesn't have it under control...




The point has been made time and time again that Peter's understanding of power is limited and inexperienced. Peter is, when contrasted with Sylar, ultra-emotional as compared to Sylar's perfect intellectual command of his powers. 

FP is more experienced with his power and had no problem stopping time where required to get out of a jam - until that ability was suppressed.

*The Hunger + Absorpton = Redemption?*

On a completely different tangent...it appears that the writers on the show have now made the unavoidable link between Sylar's power of "The Way things Work" and "the Hunger".  This would suggest that in *most* instances where Sylar kills (but not the two times he kills when south of the Border with the Snooze twins) he is not responsible for the crime - or at the least - is _less morally culpable_.

It seems difficult to understand why present Peter Petrelli would start to cut apart Nathan's Head in an attempt to take his power - _when he already has it._  That one is not going to be left alone. There will be some resolution of that issue during the course of this season, I predict.

Unlike the above plot holes we have been discussing, I don't think this "plot hole" will be ignored by the writers and that this was a path they have embarked upon with deliberate intent. I expect that the combining of Peter's "Power Absorption" ability with Sylar's "The Way things Work ability " will ultimately lead to a possibility of balance between the two powers that will permit Peter to suppress "the Hunger".

But will that avenue of redemption for Peter be extended to Sylar?

Maybe.

I do not think this spin is at all an accident. Indeed, I think it is the intention of the writers that Sylar will ultimately get the chance to open Peter's head  - just like Claire's - so that he can get Peter's absorption ability in order to allow him to suppress "the Hunger".  That's the way out for the writers to save Sylar in the series - their chance for his character to logically be redeemed and somehow continue in the show as an anti-hero.


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## Crothian (Oct 7, 2008)

The episode seemed to do three things none of which I find all that interesting

[sblock]

Get Peter Sylar's ability.  Yawn, Sylar wasn't an intyeresting Character with it and it looks like it will not dominate Peter

Get Beckman to go after Daphne Speedster

Get Hiro to free what's his name, who was a terrible character before[/sblock]

Lots of unimportant things going on as we know everything in the future will change so it becomes meaningless


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## DonTadow (Oct 7, 2008)

Steel_Wind said:


> .
> 
> I will accept that the suppression of Peter's abilities could keep his power of regeneration from going active - but that's only so long as he is there.
> 
> ...



A plot hole.[\quote] 
Not necessarily, more of a plot definition.  We have never seen Peter or anyone other than Clair come back to life.  (Nathan aside but i think his power is angel) .  This to me means that borrowed or stolen powers work a bit different than if you already had the power. 

Which leads to another thing you say.  What if he doesn't have Nathan's ability like that.  Some have suggested that these powers grow with usage, so what if the way they works affects the power in general.  Nathan's flight is small beans compared to the ability to heal others, the ability to bring back from the dead.  

My hope for the series is that peter becomes a bad guy.. he's just too powerful and i feel thats the direction he should be in. An emotional bad guy who thinks he is doing good but screwing everything up. And sylar becoming this anti hero who refuses to use any power but his inherent detective power and hope that this happens before it gets canceled.  Because I can't believe that with this ballooning cast and their special effects budget they can afford to stay on the air after this season. 

Also, I liked how the time didn't change in the future.  It seems everything still happens the way it is.  I hope for Heroes sake that this future is permanent. Then if it does come back, come back at THAT point in the future.


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## Dog Moon (Oct 7, 2008)

Steel_Wind said:


> It seems difficult to understand why present Peter Petrelli would start to cut apart Nathan's Head in an attempt to take his power - _when he already has it._  That one is not going to be left alone. There will be some resolution of that issue during the course of this season, I predict.




I'm going to assume that he didn't do it to gain the power, but to understand how it works.  It's the first time he's had the real opportunity to be alone with a 'Hero' for a few moments [he didn't have much time with Sylar before they were attacked].

It's like 'Hrm, I know you can fly and I can fly by thinking of your power, but what exactly allows you the capability to fly?'


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## Relique du Madde (Oct 7, 2008)

Arnwyn said:


> (Yay to seeing Adam, just 'cause I like him. And even Molly. But _more_ characters? *sob*) Stupid hope.




I sort of feel sorry for Molly because she will still look 12 years old when she's 16.



Steel_Wind said:


> .
> 
> I will accept that the suppression of Peter's abilities could keep his power of regeneration from going active - but that's only so long as he is there.
> 
> As has been pointed out, The Haitian exits the room to leave President Petrelli alone with Peter - and FP's body. At that point, FP should have come back to life.




Magical Silver Bullets?




DonTadow said:


> Also, I liked how the time didn't change in the future.  It seems everything still happens the way it is.  I hope for Heroes sake that this future is permanent. Then if it does come back, come back at THAT point in the future.




Remember how Future Hero and Future Peter were both trying to map out the future during previous seasons in hopes of preventing it from snowballing?  I think that the reason why the Future did not change is because FP doesn't know what caused things to go amiss.  Instead of tracking down the Powers Formula and preventing it's creation, he's been chasing himself down and thinking that Nathan was the cause of everything.  As a result of not attacking the problem he's actually been making things get worse.

At the same time, he may have unknowingly created a Quantum Paradox which might explain why he is hated and being hunted by the Company for being a terrorist/mass murderer (assuming Costa Verde isn't the only place that went up in a atomic fireball).  As far as we know, the reason why the Future Peter's relationships with the other Heroes has taken a nosedive could have been because he was taken to the future and given full access/mastery of Sylar's Powers (instead of his having no control over it like he currently has).  Thus he has created a second Slyar which might have caused the death of Noah (whose power is being Bad Ass) and  Ms. Bennett Ma Patrelli and or countless others. 

In essence, last night's episode might have actually been the start of explaining why things gone bad.  What's puzzling however is trying to understand how last night's events connects to the world exploding (for days later in that future) and why Heroe and Ando are fighting over the formula after everyone got super powers (assuming its the same formula and not one that kills super powers).


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## Brown Jenkin (Oct 7, 2008)

DonTadow said:


> A plot hole.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Relique du Madde (Oct 7, 2008)

Brown Jenkin said:


> That is not correct. Borrowed powers may work differently but Peter did come back to life in season 1. I forget how but Peter got a shard of glass in the back of his brain and he was dragged to Ma Patrelli's house. Peter was 100% dead at that point and then the shard was removed. Peter then came back to life. Now at that point Claire was nearby but she was also nearby when Future Peter was on the slab dead.




Claire pulled it out.


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## Arnwyn (Oct 7, 2008)

Relique du Madde said:


> I sort of feel sorry for Molly because she will still look 12 years old when she's 16.



Heh. My wife and I did have a good laugh (and eyerolling) with that one.

It's like the reverse of the normal TV problem where kids age too fast!


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## Brown Jenkin (Oct 7, 2008)

Relique du Madde said:


> Claire pulled it out.



I don't see a difference between that and standing 3 feet away from him as far as the power goes.


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## F5 (Oct 7, 2008)

Do we ever see Future Peter actually use Claire's power?  Future Peter's defining physical characteristic is that scar, which would have healed if he was regenerating.  I'm thinking Future Peter doesn't have Claire's power anymore.  Hence, bullets to the chest have their desired effect.


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## Relique du Madde (Oct 7, 2008)

But then how did FP lose his power?


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## Pseudonym (Oct 8, 2008)

Steel_Wind said:


> how does Future Claire go to Costa Verde, threaten  - and actually kill her 3.5 yr old cousin, have Future Gabriel go nuclear over that - and then rationally  - or even _irrationally_ - blame Present Peter for that result?






My question is how did they get to Costa Verde so quickly?  Granted the location of Parkman's apartment was not mentioned, but I assume it is the one he formerly shared with Mohinder in New York.  Molly tells them Peter is in Costa Verde, and minutes later the three arrive in Sylar's house.  Did Daphne carry Knox and Clair?


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## Mark (Oct 8, 2008)

JoeGKushner said:


> I enjoyed the Gabriel bits a bit this time around so that surprises me.
> 
> The rest?
> 
> "He's going to meet Sylar! Let's not take the Haitian! After all, what's the worst that could happen?"





Good stuff with Gabriel.  Can the Haitian _not_ suppress powers?


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## Mark (Oct 8, 2008)

Pseudonym said:


> [/LIST]
> 
> My question is how did they get to Costa Verde so quickly?  Granted the location of Parkman's apartment was not mentioned, but I assume it is the one he formerly shared with Mohinder in New York.  Molly tells them Peter is in Costa Verde, and minutes later the three arrive in Sylar's house.  Did Daphne carry Knox and Clair?





She apparently steals decent quantities of gold bars, too.


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## Mark (Oct 8, 2008)

F5 said:


> Do we ever see Future Peter actually use Claire's power?  Future Peter's defining physical characteristic is that scar, which would have healed if he was regenerating.





Did the scar come after he acquired the power or before?


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## Goodsport (Oct 8, 2008)

Relique du Madde said:


> I sort of feel sorry for Molly because she will still look 12 years old when she's 16.




But eventually, Molly will be very happy when she'll still look 26 years old when she's 30. 


-G


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## John Crichton (Oct 8, 2008)

Vocenoctum said:


> Watching characters that never learn (or, more accurately, repeatedly learn the same lesson) is just pointless. If character advancement is reversed at will as a plot crutch, then the advancement has no meaning. Why care if Sylar learns compassion if he will simply regress and relearn it again 3 times this season and over and over again next season?



How is this any different from a normal (read: not great) comic book?  Especially one that basically needed a reboot.

I think the expectations for this show are too high.  Because it's genre and has done well in the past it has attracted a ton of attention.  Some deserved, some not.

This is not a great show.  It's pretty good and the first of its kind (comic book TV series on network TV).  Sometimes weak (see: first half of S1 & S2), sometimes great (Company Man).  The characters are greatly flawed and the writing is sometimes suspect.  Add in time travel (uh oh) and you have a recipe for exactly what we are getting.

My roundabout point is that the show is still getting everyone in this thread to tune in every week.  It's doing more than 95% of people give it credit for.


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## Brown Jenkin (Oct 8, 2008)

After this episode pulled out more characters from retirement (Molly) I am really feeling the need for a giant culling of the herd. The only way this show will survive with this giant cast is if everyone is already making scale or if the actors get pounded in the upcoming strike.


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## Relique du Madde (Oct 8, 2008)

Brown Jenkin said:


> After this episode pulled out more characters from retirement (Molly) I am really feeling the need for a giant culling of the herd. The only way this show will survive with this giant cast is if everyone is already making scale or if the actors get pounded in the upcoming strike.





Is that a hint I should start up another Heroes Death Pool?


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## Staffan (Oct 8, 2008)

F5 said:


> Do we ever see Future Peter actually use Claire's power?  Future Peter's defining physical characteristic is that scar, which would have healed if he was regenerating.  I'm thinking Future Peter doesn't have Claire's power anymore.  Hence, bullets to the chest have their desired effect.




Come to think of it, he might not have ever had it. It appears to me that Future!Peter might not be from the future we see in this episode. He previously mentioned that he tries changing the past, but that the future always turns out bad anyway.

A major plot point in season 1 is "Save the Cheerleader, Save the World." If Future!Peter originally comes from a world where Claire wasn't saved, he might not have met her back in Texas to absorb her power, and might not have met her long enough to absorb it afterward.



Brown Jenkin said:


> After this episode pulled out more characters from retirement (Molly) I am really feeling the need for a giant culling of the herd. The only way this show will survive with this giant cast is if everyone is already making scale or if the actors get pounded in the upcoming strike.



I think Molly was just guest-starring, sort of like Micah in last episode. A big cast of guest stars is OK with me.


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## Hand of Evil (Oct 8, 2008)

Pseudonym said:


> [/LIST]Did Daphne carry Knox and Clair?



to the Daphne-mobile...   It is always been an issue, Peter and Hiro don't just teleport, they teleport through time...to the exact moment of plot!


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## GlassJaw (Oct 8, 2008)

I got around to watching this after the debate.  

Ugh, I find this show utterly frustrating.  It's getting worse.  Whoever thought making time travel the core of this season's storyline is a moron.  And the plot only gets more convoluted with each "jump".  Sylar and the kid and him going supernova almost did it for me.  The phrase "nuked the fridge" came to mind.

I'm enjoying Fringe much more than Heroes this season.


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## Mallus (Oct 8, 2008)

John Crichton said:


> How is this any different from a normal (read: not great) comic book?  Especially one that basically needed a reboot.
> 
> I think the expectations for this show are too high.



So do I. I think you've made a great point JC. Heroes simply has all the flaws of your average mainstream superhero comic. It embodies rather than transcends the genre. I'm enjoying this season of Heroes -- particularly the last episode-- even though it doesn't really make a lick of sense. I'm judging it for what it is; a superhero comic brought to television.

(I suspect part of the problem is that superhero comics are a odd duck, genre-wise; a medium meant for kids that's now almost exclusively consumed by adults. The same conventions that the target audience _demand_ also don't bear up to adult scrutiny and expectations vis-a-vis plot/character continuity.)


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## Shayuri (Oct 8, 2008)

Good point about the scar...though I'm not sure how he can 'lose' a power.

One thing about Peter that's interesting, and may or may not be relevant:

Peter's power is empathic. In the scene with Claude, he says that to use a power, he has to connect with that person emotionally. To concentrate on how that person makes him feel.

This might help explain why he sometimes has trouble using powers, to my mind. As well as why he didn't connect with Sylar's powers before this. Maybe Future Peter is so disconnected from Future Claire that he can no longer "interface" with her power. Of course, I'm sure there's a dozen instances where this idea is weakened or negated, but it's something I haven't seen brought up before.

As for the rest:

Evil Claire feels forced and wooden. Oh wow, she tortures people now. Still not scary. It's meant to be a shock, but it comes off as trite.

I liked the interplay between Daphne and Parkman and Molly.

I was curious about Sylar's wife, and if his son has powers. I got the impression he was trying to keep his boy well away from powers, no doubt because he didn't want to feel an urge to look at his brain.

Peter didn't try to get at Nathan's brain for his power, he wanted to "understand" Nathan. What his motivations were. What he wanted. Telepathy didn't give him the answers...Nathan's mind was too disciplined. Peter didn't trust what he saw. There was another way...an easier, surer way...and all he had to do was take a look inside...

Just thoughts.


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## DonTadow (Oct 8, 2008)

Brown Jenkin said:


> DonTadow said:
> 
> 
> > A plot hole.
> ...


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## DonTadow (Oct 8, 2008)

Hand of Evil said:


> to the Daphne-mobile...   It is always been an issue, Peter and Hiro don't just teleport, they teleport through time...to the exact moment of plot!




Oh its far more worse.  Remember the first dozen episodes and it seemed like Noah was everywhere all the time.  Dallas, New York, Las Vegas.  There was a rumor for a mineute that he had the power to teleport.  Nope its just the writer always putting everyone in the exact spot they are suppose to.  The worst Heroes moment was when the twins happened to find Sylar on the side of the road.  Millions of roads, Millions of places, MIllians of doctors they happen to meet one another.  

I do agree with a previous poster that this is based off a comic and there is little growth in the comic.  However, every now and then there is just enough to keep us reading.


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## Krug (Oct 8, 2008)

Was quite disappointed. The premise had good potential, but the writers seem to be in a mad rush to squeeze the story into one episode. Couldn't they let it breathe a little and stretch it out? I thought future Sylar was interesting. Who did he marry? The irony of him not using his powers in a world that everyone has them would have been potentially intriguing.

Bringing Adam back just seemed... dull. Once again, the writers can't just let the dead stay dead. It seemed a sign of pure desperation. 

Frankly, it doesn't look good for the series: Ratings: 'Dancing With the Stars' stays strong, 'Chuck,' Heroes' continue to decline | Ratings, TV Biz, TV Ratings | Hollywood Insider | EW.com



> Heroes tallied just 8.2 million at 9 p.m., a loss of about a million viewers from last week, and well below last year’s 11.6 million average.


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## Vocenoctum (Oct 8, 2008)

John Crichton said:


> How is this any different from a normal (read: not great) comic book?  Especially one that basically needed a reboot.
> ::snip::
> My roundabout point is that the show is still getting everyone in this thread to tune in every week.  It's doing more than 95% of people give it credit for.




The thing is, folks tune in dispite the writing rather than because of it, just like comic books with bad runs resulting in folks complaining about it while hoping it returns to quality. Heroes emulating questionable quality and relying on the past to keep folks interested doesn't seem like a winning strategy.

And no, not everyone in this thread tunes in every week. It depends on how invested you are in the show. Haven't seen anything about the shows ratings for this season, so not sure how the overall public is taking it.
::edit:: I read the link and even less folks view this season than last season, which was down from first season...


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## WayneLigon (Oct 9, 2008)

Vocenoctum said:


> The thing is, folks tune in dispite the writing rather than because of it, just like comic books with bad runs resulting in folks complaining about it while hoping it returns to quality.




Or, there are people like me who see absolutely nothing wrong with the writing or the characters and think both are great. It's still the best show on TV, period.


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## JoeGKushner (Oct 9, 2008)

John Crichton said:


> How is this any different from a normal (read: not great) comic book?  Especially one that basically needed a reboot.




Such reboots usually happen every 10-20 years, not every season.

Spider Man not married?

Super Man's Pa Kent dying?

Crisis of Infinite Earths?

These things happen once every blue moon, not once a season.


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## Man in the Funny Hat (Oct 9, 2008)

Relique du Madde said:


> -Used The Haitian nullify powers (after all the haitain used it on him how many times no?)



This at least is explainable and sensible. The nullification trumps the possible absorbtion of the ability to nullify. If your absorbtion abiility is nullified then you can't absorb the ability TO nullify.

But yeah, he could have done any of a dozen other things, so...

I continue to watch because I like the characters, but I'm starting to think that the success of season 1 was just a fluke.  The creators/writers simply don't have the skills/imagination needed to actually write good episodes and story arcs for the characters they've created.  Every week they scramble for the cheap, instant fix of whatever might be wrong with the show and only make the problem worse.


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## Vocenoctum (Oct 9, 2008)

WayneLigon said:


> Or, there are people like me who see absolutely nothing wrong with the writing or the characters and think both are great. It's still the best show on TV, period.




Sure, didn't mean to say no one should like it. I just don't see the response of "well, sure the writing is bad, but comic books also have bad writing, so it's an homage to the genre!" as unworthy of reply. 

Plenty of folks like Heroes, even as the ratings slide it's still higher rated than many other shows. I just think a lot of folks that were drawn in by the premise and promise of season 1 have left in frustration.


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## Krug (Oct 9, 2008)

Well we're the hard core; the audience that will keep on watching until it all ends cause we're genre freaks. I guess we're watching because the series has so much potential, and there are a few things in each episode that it gets right. Like I really liked the idea of a super villain team but they got snuffed in ep 3, while for ep 4 Martha Stewart Sylar was also interesting, but that went kablooie. It seems to be throwing out beats like a heavy metal drummer, when a more measured pace would really help the character development of the series, besides the LONG TERM purging of the cast. Some of the characters also need a power downgrade, obviously, and when you use time travel so frequently... well people are gonna be blasting plotholes left, right and center. 

I won't call it the best thing on television. *Dexter* is still my current fave.


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## Kobold Avenger (Oct 9, 2008)

I think that this season they actually mentioned they weren't going to try lingering on plot points too long, and pick up the pacing in many places.


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## Hand of Evil (Oct 9, 2008)

Kind of surprised no one has connected future Sylar to Bennett, horn rimmed glasses, in the house where Claire grew up, the dog and the son named Noah...


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## Brown Jenkin (Oct 9, 2008)

JoeGKushner said:


> Such reboots usually happen every 10-20 years, not every season.
> 
> Spider Man not married?
> 
> ...




You haven't been reading Marvel recently then.


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## Brown Jenkin (Oct 9, 2008)

Hand of Evil said:


> Kind of surprised no one has connected future Sylar to Bennett, horn rimmed glasses, in the house where Claire grew up, the dog and the son named Noah...




I picked up on it but I really didn't care. The future timeline means nothing to me as the who point of the season is to change the future. Unless Peter is supposed to be picking up clues in the future they need to get him out of the future, if he is supposed to be getting clues give them to him and get him out of the future. 

The whole Peter in the future is fast becoming Hiro in the past and Tim Kring said it was a mistake keeping him there as long as they did. I don't give a rats  about the future.

Edit: Yes I know Peter went back to the present at the end of the episode, but it doesn't feel like they are truely done there. I really truely hope they are.


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## Darkwolf71 (Oct 9, 2008)

Krug said:


> Bringing Adam back just seemed... dull. Once again, the writers can't just let the dead stay dead. It seemed a sign of pure desperation.



I think most people never wrote Adam off as 'dead', since he can't die. As for my circle of friends we have been speculating on how/when he would be back ever since Hiro stuck him in the ground. Earthquake, long slow process of clawing his way out, whatever. We knew it would be something, but Hiro digging him up was certainly not an option we considered.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Oct 9, 2008)

Hand of Evil said:


> Kind of surprised no one has connected future Sylar to Bennett, horn rimmed glasses, in the house where Claire grew up, the dog and the son named Noah...




I think Noah (HRG) might have influenced Sylar, and after his death (I bet he's dead), Syler/Gabriel kept him in good memory, and when he had a child, named it after him. Quite obvious so, right? 

Maybe Sylars future self shows us that there is no need to be controlled by the hunger of his ability. It reminds me of a Doctor House episode where they figure out that a death candidate was only so agressive and killed several people because of a disease - Foreman thinks that changes everything and things the guy deserves another hearing of his case and offers his help. House mentions that there are people with the same problem who did NOT kill people and still lived normal lives.

Maybe Sylar has this hunger - but that doesn't excuse his actions. The future self can show us that there had been an alternative. And the end of Sylar shows us that there is a destructive trait in him, a personality flaw, and it he who is abusing the power, not some disease. He fails his chance for redemption.


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## Dog Moon (Oct 9, 2008)

Darkwolf71 said:


> I think most people never wrote Adam off as 'dead', since he can't die. As for my circle of friends we have been speculating on how/when he would be back ever since Hiro stuck him in the ground. Earthquake, long slow process of clawing his way out, whatever. We knew it would be something, but Hiro digging him up was certainly not an option we considered.




I had a very similar thought.  I was like, worst case scenario, eventually the coffin would deteriorate and he would get free.  I wasn't even sure he'd be back this season, but then it was mentioned that Claire was super special and wondered about Adam and was like 'well, he'll probably come back later on in this season' but I didn't expect episode 4, let alone by Hiro's hand!


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## DonTadow (Oct 9, 2008)

Hand of Evil said:


> Kind of surprised no one has connected future Sylar to Bennett, horn rimmed glasses, in the house where Claire grew up, the dog and the son named Noah...




And what did Clair mean when she said that sylar took it look from her.  This has me speculating that ...none of that was real.. well the house and kid anyway and that sylar recreated his own world to live in, away from everyone.


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## rowport (Oct 10, 2008)

DonTadow said:


> And what did Clair mean when she said that sylar took her look from her.  This has me speculating that ...none of that was real.. well the house and kid anyway and that sylar recreated his own world to live in, away from everyone.




That is a pretty cool theory.  I did not think of that.

I have been bugged by how two bullets could take out Future Peter, and I have a theory (which also led me to one about Future Sylar/Gabriel).  Here it is: That version of Peter did not have fast healing because he never saved Claire in that universe.  That would explain his easy death, and also his having the facial scar.

Similarly, Gabriel still has all the powers he "ate" because his mind was never stripped in that universe.  I realized that he still had the radiation from the Exploding Man when he went kaboom-- but in our time he only had telekensis left after Season One.

Now, how the above relates to Claire being a bad-a** chick who hates Peter as much as Sylar is not clear to me, but I bet it is because *Sylar* has Future Claire's power-- SINCE PETER NEVER SAVED HER IN THAT UNIVERSE!  That would conveniently allow Future Sylar/Gabriel to survive blowing up, even though Future Peter can die from simple gunfire.

Neat, huh?  Well, it is a theory, anyway.  Poke holes in it, people!


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## Kobold Avenger (Oct 10, 2008)

rowport said:


> I have been bugged by how two bullets could take out Future Peter, and I have a theory (which also led me to one about Future Sylar/Gabriel).  Here it is: That version of Peter did not have fast healing because he never saved Claire in that universe.  That would explain his easy death, and also his having the facial scar.



I got the impression that it was a future where Peter saved Claire, since the one where he didn't was the one that Hiro prevented from happening.


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## Hand of Evil (Oct 10, 2008)

So, how about a wild thought...Sylar's Noah was HRG Noah in the future!    By a power Bennett could have been reverted to a kid!


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## John Crichton (Oct 10, 2008)

Vocenoctum said:


> The thing is, folks tune in dispite the writing rather than because of it, just like comic books with bad runs resulting in folks complaining about it while hoping it returns to quality. Heroes emulating questionable quality and relying on the past to keep folks interested doesn't seem like a winning strategy.



Never said it was.  Was just saying that the show was NEVER that great to begin with.  Some shining moments, yes.  Overall, not so much.



Vocenoctum said:


> And no, not everyone in this thread tunes in every week.



I'd say most people watch the show and don't miss an episode. That was my point.



JoeGKushner said:


> Such reboots usually happen every 10-20 years, not every season.
> 
> >snip<
> 
> These things happen once every blue moon, not once a season.



That's fair.  I was referring to last season that was panned universally (not that I agree) and the reaction of the production team basically starting over.


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## Darkwolf71 (Oct 10, 2008)

rowport said:


> I have a theory (which also led me to one about Future Sylar/Gabriel).  Here it is: That version of Peter did not have fast healing because he never saved Claire in that universe.  That would explain his easy death, and also his having the facial scar.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> ...



Biggest hole? It's a different 'future' not universe. The past is unchanged. I'm not sure how that works with FP's scar. They will have to address that eventually, but even 'if' it was a different universe, Pete doesn't have to have saved Claire to gain her power, only have met her and we saw them together in the season opener. 


Hand of Evil said:


> So, how about a wild thought...Sylar's Noah was HRG Noah in the future!    By a power Bennett could have been reverted to a kid!



Unlikely, but freaking hilarious!


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## Arnwyn (Oct 10, 2008)

Hand of Evil said:


> Kind of surprised no one has connected future Sylar to Bennett, horn rimmed glasses, in the house where Claire grew up, the dog and the son named Noah...



As another said - noticed, didn't care. Time-travel is a struggle to enjoy at the best of times, and I don't particularly care about a doomed future.



			
				John Crichton said:
			
		

> That's fair. I was referring to last season that was panned universally (not that I agree) and the reaction of the production team basically starting over.



Too bad they're doing exactly _not_ that. It's just S2, continued.


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## Felon (Oct 10, 2008)

Mallus said:


> So do I. I think you've made a great point JC. Heroes simply has all the flaws of your average mainstream superhero comic. It embodies rather than transcends the genre.



This "emulating the genre" rationalization has been tossed out plenty of times. Of course, when someone makes reference to some element of the show being too boring and mundane (say, Parkman), then we get some screed about how the characters of heroes *aren't* comic-book characters, but rather ordinary people. So, they get an easy out either way. 

Bad storytelling is bad storytelling, doesn't matter what the genre is.


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## Felon (Oct 10, 2008)

rowport said:


> I have been bugged by how two bullets could take out Future Peter, and I have a theory (which also led me to one about Future Sylar/Gabriel).  Here it is: That version of Peter did not have fast healing because he never saved Claire in that universe.  That would explain his easy death, and also his having the facial scar.



Don't understand your point here. He gets his powers by proximity. He's been close to Claire plenty of times.



> Similarly, Gabriel still has all the powers he "ate" because his mind was never stripped in that universe.  I realized that he still had the radiation from the Exploding Man when he went kaboom-- but in our time he only had telekensis left after Season One.



As has been discussed before, we can't read a lot into this because Sylar has almost always relied on telekinesis to the exclusion of all else. He's never used any of the other offensive powers, like the freezing and melting powers he supposedly acquired from previous victims.

Claire said a bullet in the brain stem would take Peter out. Did Future Pete get shot in the head, or was it torso shots only?


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## Mallus (Oct 10, 2008)

Felon said:


> This "emulating the genre" rationalization has been tossed out plenty of times.



I was explaining how I viewed show. I feel it more-or-less successfully disarmsmy criticisms by being sufficiently comic book-like. 



> Bad storytelling is bad storytelling, doesn't matter what the genre is.



I'm a firm believer in the idea of 'appropriate criticism'. I don't read an X-Men comic the same way I read Jane Austen. Different specific criteria exist for different kinds of literature (though you're absolutely right to say certain universal exist -- mostly). 

Really, you can't apply the same criteria to every type (or instance) of story.


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## Relique du Madde (Oct 11, 2008)

Felon said:


> Don't understand your point here. He gets his powers by proximity. He's been close to Claire plenty of times.




Not to mention he had feelings about concern for Clair which should cause him to use her power since "empathy" *IS* part of the key to using his power.


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## Dinkeldog (Oct 11, 2008)

Steel_Wind said:


> .
> 
> It seems difficult to understand why present Peter Petrelli would start to cut apart Nathan's Head in an attempt to take his power - _when he already has it._  That one is not going to be left alone. There will be some resolution of that issue during the course of this season, I predict.
> 
> Unlike the above plot holes we have been discussing, I don't think this "plot hole" will be ignored by the writers and that this was a path they have embarked upon with deliberate intent. I expect that the combining of Peter's "Power Absorption" ability with Sylar's "The Way things Work ability " will ultimately lead to a possibility of balance between the two powers that will permit Peter to suppress "the Hunger".




Peter gets powers, but doesn't understand them.  Sylar doesn't kill out of spite, the hunger is the need to understand.  So Peter needs to understand Nathan's power now.

Or, hey, this could be a crappy show that everyone feels compelled to spend time talking about.  :shrug:


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## Plane Sailing (Oct 16, 2008)

I had fun watching it, but rolled my eyes at some of the things that people have already talked about here - not to mention the issue at the end of Ma Patrelli telling Hiro to resolve the formula issue by digging up Adam. Wouldn't it surely have made more sense for Hiro to have gone back in time, opened the safe and put a dummy formula in there, and hidden the actual formula somewhere else?

That just seems to be a far more sensible and simple means of ensuring that mr mysterious doesn't end up with both halves of the formula.


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## Brown Jenkin (Oct 17, 2008)

Plane Sailing said:


> I had fun watching it, but rolled my eyes at some of the things that people have already talked about here - not to mention the issue at the end of Ma Patrelli telling Hiro to resolve the formula issue by digging up Adam. Wouldn't it surely have made more sense for Hiro to have gone back in time, opened the safe and put a dummy formula in there, and hidden the actual formula somewhere else?
> 
> That just seems to be a far more sensible and simple means of ensuring that mr mysterious doesn't end up with both halves of the formula.




Shhhh. quit talking sense.


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