# The Immortals Handbook



## Upper_Krust

Hi all! 

Okay, with a bit of luck this should hopefully be the last pre-release Immortals Handbook thread.

For those of you who don't know what the Immortals Handbook is (though the title is a bit of a clue) here is some pre-release information:

*APOTHEOSIS (Immortals Handbook Section One)

"Gain Glory and Godly Power!*

_Uncover your immortal destiny and gain strength from the worship of souls and the harvest of spirits._

This supplement contains:

The Worship Point System; which determines the relationship between religion and divinity.
Full rules for divine ascension.
Full rules for divine intervention and Avatars.
14 Divinity Templates (with examples), from Disciples to Time Lords.
46 Portfolio Templates, from Air to Wisdom; and includes rules for creating your own portfolios.
48 Epic Feats.
128 Divine Abilities.
64 Cosmic Abilities.
32 Transcendent Abilities.
16 Omnific Abilities.
8 Metempiric Abilities.
Immortal Character Sheets.
Iconic Immortals.


*GRIMOIRE (Immortals Handbook Section Two)

"Awesome Artifacts and Ancient Wisdom!*

_Unlock the secrets of the gods and discover power without limitation._ 

This supplement contains:

Alternative Epic Magic rules.
6 types of magic.
64 True Dweomers.
8 Domains.
16 Domain Spells.
Full rules for artifact creation.
64 Weapon Special Abilities.
32 Armor and Shield Special Abilities.
64 Magic Items.


*BESTIARY (Immortals Handbook Section Three)

"Behold Beasts from Beyond Imagination!*

_Unleash the most powerful collection of monstrous forces ever assembled and teach humility to even the mightiest immortals..._

This supplement contains:

64 truly epic monsters ranging from CR 20 to 20,000; including the majestic Seraphim, dreaded Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse and the awesome World Flayers.
8 monster templates (with examples); such as the Amidah; Devastator and Legendary Animal.
Guidelines on how to design your own monstrous creations.


*CHRONICLE (Immortals Handbook Section Four)

"Create Campaigns of Cosmic Magnitude!*

_Unravel the very fabric of the multiverse and explore how and where gods live...and die._

This supplement contains:

Guidelines on how to create pantheons, populate the planes and generally develop your own cosmos.
Guidelines on how to create divine realms (with examples).
Organisations both Mortal and Immortal; such as the Technomages and the Legion of the Damned.
8 Prestige Classes; including the Baba and the Dweller on the Threshold.
Expanded Core Classes. 
Iconic Enemies.
Campaign advice and adventure ideas.
Adventure: "Jacobs Ladder."


Disclaimer: note that some of the above elements may be subject to minor changes in the final release.


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## Upper_Krust

*Immortals Handbook 

Frequently Asked Questions* 

*1. What is the Immortals Handbook?*
A: The Immortals Handbook is a body of work that expands; explains and outlines all aspects of using deities within a campaign. 

*2. Is this a d20 product?*
[A: Yes. As well as presenting a plethora of new material it seeks to marry ideas from Deities & Demigods and the Epic Level Handbook.

*3. Is this a standalone game?*
A: No. It requires the Core Rulebooks and the Epic Level Handbook. Deities & Demigods is compatible but not necessary.

*4. Who is publishing it?*
A: The publisher will be announced before the release.

*5. Will this be an electronic product, a print product or both?*
A: Initially the book will be released as four electronic products (Apotheosis; Grimoire; Bestiary and Chronicle); which will then be conjoined as a print product.

*6. Where should we expect to see it?*
A: The pdf will be available from websites such as www.rpgnow.com

*7. When should it be finished?*
A: The first pdf should be available shortly.

*8. Why has it taken so long?*
A: Aside from multiple expansions and numerous revisions throughout its inception it was decided last year that the work, which was already compatible with the core rulebooks would benefit a greater audience if it was fully compatible with Deities & Demigods and the Epic Level Handbook. As such we have been forced to wait until this material entered the SRD, though during this time the work has been further developed and refined.

*9. I’ve played in immortal campaigns before (Amber RPG; D&D Immortals; Primal Order) - how is this different, or better?*
A: The key difference between this work and previous material on the subject is that the focus is not solely on the gods themselves, but rather, the relationship between mortals and immortals. 

*10. I don’t really want to run an immortal campaign - why should the Immortals Handbook interest me?*
A: Firstly, the bulk of the material could just as easily bless any Epic campaign. Non-epic campaigns will also find a wealth of ideas helping them develop their worlds religions from both divine and mundane perspectives.

*11. I’ve heard you are making some changes to the core rules just what are they and why are you making them?*
A: The only major change to the core rules are revisions to the Challenge Rating/Encounter Level Rules.
Some of the dynamics of divinity itself have been changed, and a number of divine abilities have been redressed from how Deities & Demigods presents them.

*12. Are the changes optional or required?*
A: The changes are optional, but strongly advocated.

*13. What support can we expect in the future?*
A: There is already a wealth of support material planned; including the Immortals Index which details Pantheons.

*14. What are your main inspirations/sources?*
A: Primarily religion; mythology and the occult. Though certainly comic books; fantasy literature; movies and roleplaying games have also proved inspirational.

*15. Shouldn’t gods be beyond stats?*
A: If the Gamesmaster so wishes. However many Gamesmasters prefer to use deities in a more physical (rather than ephemeral) capacity. 

*16. Is the system modular, if so, to what degree?*
A: Practically the entire body of work is modular.

*17. Will it be easy to incorporate into an existing campaign?*
A: Yes, with minimal effort. 

*18. Do you have methods to convert existing gods from my campaign to fit your new and expanded rules?*
A: Yes, however to avoid copyright issues I must be circumspect in how I outline such conversion.

*19. I have heard about some weird stuff like Cosmic Abilities and Esoteric Divine Abilities, what are those and are they easy to add to existing gods?*
A: Cosmic Abilities are the powers attributed to Sidereals (also know as Cosmic or Over-deities) who could be described as the gods of the gods.
The term Esoteric is applied as a prefix to abilities beyond the power of deities to manifest in and of their own power. Immortals who gain Cosmic Abilities do so through esoteric means.

If anyone else has any questions I'll edit them into this list.


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## Revenge of the Bjorn

Whoa, somebody sure savors savvy...err...well...alliteration.  Well I tried hard and that's what counts.  

And post 666 came and went on the old thread with no warning or fanfare?  I'm ashamed at all of you.


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## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> 64 truly epic monsters ranging from CR 20 to 20,000; including the majestic Seraphim, dreaded Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse and the awesome World Flayers.




What's the CR distribution like here?


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## Upper_Krust

Woo Hoo! ENWorld is letting me post again (otherwise I would have had the FAQ up five hours ago). Give me a moment for that. While I am here...

Hey Bjorn mate!



			
				Revenge of the Bjorn said:
			
		

> Whoa, somebody sure savors savvy...err...well...alliteration.  Well I tried hard and that's what counts.




 



			
				Revenge of the Bjorn said:
			
		

> And post 666 came and went on the old thread with no warning or fanfare?  I'm ashamed at all of you.




True, we should be ashamed of ourselves...I could have posted Lucifers stats, but I guess those will have to wait for the Immortals Handbook.


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## Upper_Krust

Its still taking me minutes to post and reload the page.

Hey CRGreathouse mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> What's the CR distribution like here?




Well *goes and has a look* out of the 64 only 9 are above Greater Gods (approx. CR 200) in power. There is a fairly even spread between Hero-deity type power and Greater Deity type power but its hard to give exact numbers since the Dragons cover a decent spread.


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## Anabstercorian

Release date!  RELEASE DATE!!!


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## Upper_Krust

Hi Anabstercorian mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> Release date! RELEASE DATE!!!




The first rule of the Immortals Handbook thread is never talk about the release date.
The second rule of the Immortals Handbook thread is NEVER TALK ABOUT THE RELEASE DATE! 




...soon. But I imagine not soon enough.


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## Golem2176

Thanks UK!     I am really looking forward to seeing the final product!


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## Impeesa

Every time I read the ToC I want it more and more.   You have a nice 'powers of 2' thing going there, I see. 

--Impeesa--


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## Nightfall

Hey Krusty mate! Glad to see you finally got your copies.

As I said, I like the monster just not sure the art work for fluted was that good. But that's my opinion. 

Regarding my Infernal sentinel, glad you liked it and also it was intentional that I used warscepter. I wanted a Devil Blackguard that was also capable of being lawful and completely without fear. Nice compliment btw you think he looks like a Thor villain. That wasn't intentional but it's a nice side effect from the art. Anyway glad you like him and yes I think the art for Infernal sentinel was pretty kick ass. (The Grey man was just better. I admit defeat!  )


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## Upper_Krust

Firstly just let me say that the boards are still barely working at a snails pace for me, so don't think I am being ignorant, its just pot luck whether I can get posting at all here right now.   

Hi Golem2176 mate! 



			
				Golem2176 said:
			
		

> Thanks UK!     I am really looking forward to seeing the final product!




I appreciate the support mate!


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## Upper_Krust

Hi Impeesa mate! 



			
				Impeesa said:
			
		

> Every time I read the ToC I want it more and more.




Then stop reading it or you will overdose on withdrawal symptoms. 



			
				Impeesa said:
			
		

> You have a nice 'powers of 2' thing going there, I see.




I like my numerology as much as Gygax, theres quite a bit of that at work in the book. I doubt few will consciously notice though.


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## Gez

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *"Gain Glory and Godly Grandeur!"
> "Awesome Artifacts and Ancient Arcana!"
> "Behold Beasts from Beyond Belief!"
> "Create Campaigns of Cosmic Consequences!"*




Fixed it for you!


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## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I like my numerology as much as Gygax, theres quite a bit of that at work in the book. I doubt few will consciously notice though.




The first thing that flashed through my mind when I read this was, "but 20, 20000, and 6 aren't powers of 2!".  Yes, I classify numbers based on their primes so much that it was obvious to me (without re-scanning) what didn't fit.   (I'm sure there were other non-powers of 2, but those were jut the ones I initially caught.)

So, if I posted one of the creatures I've thrown at my group (yes, it came to combat!) to show off, would that distract you overmuch from your IH typing?


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## Upper_Krust

Hi Gez matey! 



			
				Gez said:
			
		

> "Gain Glory and Godly Grandeur!"
> "Awesome Artifacts and Ancient Arcana!"
> "Behold Beasts from Beyond Belief!"
> "Create Campaigns of Cosmic Consequences!"
> 
> Fixed it for you!




Those actually sound pretty good, and fit better than my efforts, can I use those?

Although I would change 'Consequences' from plural to singular (Consequence).

Beyond Belief definately is a winner. Since the 'belief' ties to divinity of course, and I was a little uncomfortable saying something was beyond imagination...that was a trifle pretentious upon reflection.


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## Upper_Krust

Hi CRGreathous mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> The first thing that flashed through my mind when I read this was, "but 20, 20000, and 6 aren't powers of 2!".
> 
> Yes, I classify numbers based on their primes so much that it was obvious to me (without re-scanning) what didn't fit.   (I'm sure there were other non-powers of 2, but those were jut the ones I initially caught.)






I just meant numerology in general rather than powers of two. You'll see when you have the book. 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> So, if I posted one of the creatures I've thrown at my group (yes, it came to combat!) to show off, would that distract you overmuch from your IH typing?




Not at all, go ahead mate.


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## CRGreathouse

This is the main opponent at the moment, a former ruler of a layer of Hell.  He’s the bastard son of Halgrin (god of suffering and torture) and a pit fiend.  He’s killed a major NPC ally of the party and a PC, and he’s bought out a major ally of the party, the rock dragon Vorgixat.  At the moment he’s keeping a low profile, sending a paleolich assassin after the remaining PCs.  Do you have any idea what CR he might be?


---------- Not for visual consumption by Charles' players ----------


Kaziglu, Infernal Child of Halgrin
Assassin1/Rogue13
Large Outsider (Evil, Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 14d6+40d8+540 (944 hp)
Initiative: +15
Speed: 80 ft, fly 240 ft (perfect)
Armor Class: 41 [52 vs.  ranged] (-1 size, +8 Dex, +24 natural), touch 17, flat-footed 41
Base Attack/Grapple: +40 (+7 EA)/+67
Full Attack: 2 claws +65 melee (4d6+16 plus 1 vile), bite +60 melee (6d6+8 plus spell suck and 1 vile), tail slam +60 melee (4d8+8 plus 1 vile)
Space/Reach: 10 ft/10 ft (15 ft with claws)
Special Attacks: Improved grab, spell suck, learned spell immunity, spell-like abilities, spells, summon fiend, sneak attack +8d6, death attack, crippling strike
Special Qualities: Abomination traits, fast healing 15, regeneration 15, SR 38, DR 15/good and epic, senses, electricity resistance 10, fire resistance 20, cold resistance 20, poison use, improved evasion, trapfinding, trap sense +4, improved uncanny dodge, deflection
Saves: Fort +39, Ref +37, Will +37
Abilities: Str 42, Dex 26, Con 30, Int 22, Wis 26, Cha 32 (20-point buy)
Skills: Balance +12 (0), Bluff +72 (57), Concentration +54 (43), Climb +16 (0) [+20 climbing rope], Diplomacy +25 (0), Disguise +15 (4), Escape Artist +43 (35) [+47 escaping rope bonds], Gather Information +15 (0), Hide +47 (43), Intimidate +88 (57), Jump +21 (0), Knowledge (arcana) +49 (43), Knowledge (nobility and royalty) +28 (22), Knowledge (religion) +27 (21), Knowledge (the planes) +49 (43), Listen +67 (57), Move Silently +51 (43), Perform (any) +15 (0), Profession (torturer) +71 (57), Search +49 (43), Sense Motive +51 (43), Spellcraft +53 (43), Spot +67 (57), Tumble +51 (43), Use Rope +43 (35) [+47 binding with rope]
Feats: Alertness, Cleave, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Great Cleave, Improved Initiative, Improved Sunder, Multiattack, Power Attack, Vile Natural Attack, Weapon Focus (claw)
Epic Feats: Blinding Speed (2), Energy Resistance (electricity), Epic Reputation, Epic Skill Focus (Intimidate), Epic Weapon Focus (claw), Lingering Damage, Spellcasting Harrier, Superior Initiative
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary or hell brigade (infernal and 4 balors or pit fiends)
Challenge Rating: ?
Treasure: Nonstandard (layer of Hell)
Alignment: Always neutral evil
Advancement: 41-50 HD (Large); 51-56 HD (Huge); 57-72 HD (Gargantuan)
Level Adjustment: —

COMBAT
Abomination Traits:
—Immunity to polymorphing, petrifaction, or any form-altering attack.  They are not subject to energy drain, ability drain, or ability damage.  They are immune to mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).
—Resistance to fire 20 and cold 20.
—True seeing and nondetection are always active
—Blindsight 500 feet
—Maximum hit points per Hit Die
—Telepathy 1000 feet with all creatures that use a language
Spell-Like Abilities: At will—Quickened abyssal might M, demand, greater dispel magic, polymorph self, greater scrying, telekinesis, greater teleport, wall of fire; 3/day—bestow greater curse, Quickened bone blast M, death by thorns (Corruption: 1d3 Wis); 1/day—eternity of torture.  Caster level 26th; save DC 21 + spell level.
Summon Fiend (Sp): 5/day, duration 1 hour: 4 balors or 4 pit fiends.
Regeneration (Ex): Normal damage from good weapons.
Learned Spell Immunity (Su): Once a particular caster affects the infernal with a spell, he can’t affect the infernal with that spell ever again.
Spell Suck (Su): On a bite, target loses highest level spell or slot.  If there are no spells or slots, instead take 2 Int damage.
Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, the infernal must hit a Large or smaller opponent with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and automatically deals bite damage and uses spell suck.
Senses (Su): Low-light vision and darkvision (240 ft); keen senses; detect good, detect chaos, detect law.
Ranged Deflection (Su): Kaziglu adds his Cha modifier to AC as a deflection bonus against ranged attacks.
Assassin Spells Known (–/2): 1—jump, true strike.


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## Alzrius

U_K, I know you answered this before, but I was hoping you could reiterate it again; how does the release of the Epic SRD affect the the IH? Will it use anything from the ELH now?

Also, if rumors are to be believed, the D&Dg isn't too far behind (DvR was obliquely mentioned in the Epic SRD, so it seems likely). If that's so, will the print version deal with that at all?


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## CRGreathouse

Alzrius said:
			
		

> (DvR was obliquely mentioned in the Epic SRD, so it seems likely).




Where was that?


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## Alzrius

CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Where was that?




In the Epic Monsters (A-E) file, under "Abomination" it has the following paragraph (after the table):



> *Abomination Traits*
> All abominations are born directly (or indirectly) from a god and some lesser creature (or idea), but none are favored, wanted, or loved. Still, they all share a tiny spark of deific energy, which grants them the qualities described in below. (Note: deity rules are used, abominations are rank 0 deities.)


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## Alzrius

Accursed browser! This is the second time tonight its done this!! I smite thee!!!


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## Alzrius

(multiple post; ignore)


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## Alzrius

(multiple post; ignore)


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## CRGreathouse

Alzrius said:
			
		

> In the Epic Monsters (A-E) file, under "Abominations", just below the table, is the following section:




Ah!  Good catch.


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## Gez

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Those actually sound pretty good, and fit better than my efforts, can I use those?




Of course! 



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Although I would change 'Consequences' from plural to singular (Consequence).
> 
> Beyond Belief definately is a winner. Since the 'belief' ties to divinity of course, and I was a little uncomfortable saying something was beyond imagination...that was a trifle pretentious upon reflection.




I'm happy it pleases you, then.


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## Upper_Krust

Hi CRGreathouse mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> This is the main opponent at the moment, a former ruler of a layer of Hell.  He’s the bastard son of Halgrin (god of suffering and torture) and a pit fiend.  He’s killed a major NPC ally of the party and a PC, and he’s bought out a major ally of the party, the rock dragon Vorgixat.  At the moment he’s keeping a low profile, sending a paleolich assassin after the remaining PCs.
> 
> Do you have any idea what CR he might be?




Do bears poo in the woods! 

Hes CR 76/EL 25...depending on situational modifiers of course.

Meaning hes a 50/50 challenge for a Party of four 32-39th level characters.


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## Herecgunina

Hey there!

Sorry to post what is no doubt an old question, but I haven't found it (yet) in the huge thread about the Immortals Handbook.

My question being, of course, how much is this going to cost?  I like the sound of this project, but the gaming budget's tight (college tuitions don't grow on trees, unfortunately)...


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## Upper_Krust

Hi Alzrius mate! 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> U_K, I know you answered this before, but I was hoping you could reiterate it again; how does the release of the Epic SRD affect the the IH? Will it use anything from the ELH now?




It won't affect the IH in any major ways but it will affect it in a lot of minor ways. There were a lot of feats I wanted to use as well as a few magic items; I wanted to parallel my epic magic system with theirs (so people could use either); refer to a number of epic monsters etc.

So it wasn't one big thing, just a lot of niggling small things.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Also, if rumors are to be believed, the D&Dg isn't too far behind (DvR was obliquely mentioned in the Epic SRD, so it seems likely). If that's so, will the print version deal with that at all?




At this stage there is really nothing in D&Dg that I need.

Of course that book is still fairly compatible with the IH, so those Pantheons won't go to waste (although I reserve the right to do my own 'take' on them at some stage). 

I might add a paragraph specifically talking about the parallels between Divine Rank and my system...at the moment I'm a bit circumspect in explaining it.


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## Upper_Krust

Hi Gez mate! 



			
				Gez said:
			
		

> Of course!
> 
> I'm happy it pleases you, then.




Thanks matey!


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## Upper_Krust

Herecgunina said:
			
		

> Hey there!




Hello there Herecgunina! 



			
				Herecgunina said:
			
		

> Sorry to post what is no doubt an old question, but I haven't found it (yet) in the huge thread about the Immortals Handbook.




Hey! No apologies necessary mate. If you (or anyone for that matter) have any questions feel free to ask away, and don't worry if they have maybe been asked before.



			
				Herecgunina said:
			
		

> My question being, of course, how much is this going to cost?  I like the sound of this project, but the gaming budget's tight (college tuitions don't grow on trees, unfortunately)...




Well the prices for both pdfs and printed d20 books are fairly standardised.

I think the Apotheosis pdf will be about $8 (approx. 128 pages); the Grimoire pdf will be about $5 (approx. 64 pages); the Bestiary pdf will be about $8 (approx. 96 pages - but more artwork); the Chronicle pdf about $5 (approx. 64 pages).

So thats roughly $26 total for the pdfs.

The eventual print book (approx. 368 pages) should be in around the $35-$40 mark.

The print version will probably have more art, any errata corrected, tweaks based on feedback, and a few new things added. I don't see any way that it could be more than $40 so thats definately the ceiling limit.


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## Herecgunina

Awesome, I can afford that.  Looking forward to your eventual release.


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## jessemock

CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> This is the main opponent at the moment, a former ruler of a layer of Hell.  He’s the bastard son of Halgrin (god of suffering and torture) and a pit fiend.  He’s killed a major NPC ally of the party and a PC, and he’s bought out a major ally of the party, the rock dragon Vorgixat.  At the moment he’s keeping a low profile, sending a paleolich assassin after the remaining PCs.  Do you have any idea what CR he might be?




Hey, what about the equipment?  Does it include a _Stake of Impaling_?


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## Revenge of the Bjorn

Hey Krust-O, I know you've mentioned Lucifer, any other big names you may want to drop just to tease us?  

Also if not a date how about that (Season) (Year) thing video game developers do when stuff's a while off? (Like Fall 2084 as a random example)  (Crosses fingers for by Spring or Summer)  

With SRD issues and everything else the product seems almost cursed. did you ever consider bringing in a shaman or exorcist of any form?    Although I imagine casting out the demons might lead to an inexplicable loss of certain pages of the Bestiary....


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## Upper_Krust

Hi Herecgunina mate! 



			
				Herecgunina said:
			
		

> Awesome, I can afford that.  Looking forward to your eventual release.




I appreciate the interest, thanks.


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## Upper_Krust

Hi jessemock! 



			
				jessemock said:
			
		

> Hey, what about the equipment?  Does it include a _Stake of Impaling_?




I was wondering about equipment too?

NB. There was none counted in the CR I gave.


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## Upper_Krust

Revenge of the Bjorn said:
			
		

> Hey Krust-O,




Hi Bjorn mate! 



			
				Revenge of the Bjorn said:
			
		

> I know you've mentioned Lucifer, any other big names you may want to drop just to tease us?




No. 

Just before release I'll post the exact Table of Contents so you can see for yourself.  



			
				Revenge of the Bjorn said:
			
		

> Also if not a date how about that (Season) (Year) thing video game developers do when stuff's a while off? (Like Fall 2084 as a random example)  (Crosses fingers for by Spring or Summer)




Spring 2004...obviously. *touch wood*



			
				Revenge of the Bjorn said:
			
		

> With SRD issues and everything else the product seems almost cursed. did you ever consider bringing in a shaman or exorcist of any form?    Although I imagine casting out the demons might lead to an inexplicable loss of certain pages of the Bestiary....




Cheeky.


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## Rhuarc

Hi UK 

At first, let me say that you've done a great work with the IH as far as I can judge it and I'm very anxious to see it released. 
I don't know exactly, that's why I ask as a precaution. Do you ship the printed book, too?


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## Upper_Krust

Rhuarc said:
			
		

> Hi UK




Hey there Rhuarc mate! 



			
				Rhuarc said:
			
		

> At first, let me say that you've done a great work with the IH as far as I can judge it




WelL I appreciate the kind words mate.



			
				Rhuarc said:
			
		

> and I'm very anxious to see it released.




That makes two of us.



			
				Rhuarc said:
			
		

> I don't know exactly, that's why I ask as a precaution. Do you ship the printed book, too?




Well I would imagine certain suppliers would ship the printed book, but that would depend on the supplier.


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## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Do bears poo in the woods!
> 
> Hes CR 76/EL 25...depending on situational modifiers of course.
> 
> Meaning hes a 50/50 challenge for a Party of four 32-39th level characters.




Of course, my party was average level 19 when they fought it... fortunately they had a bit of help.


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## historian

This is great news Krust!

Looking very forward to the day when I have the IH in hand!


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## CRGreathouse

jessemock said:
			
		

> Hey, what about the equipment?  Does it include a _Stake of Impaling_?








			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I was wondering about equipment too?
> 
> NB. There was none counted in the CR I gave.




He's pretty low on equipment now, being driven out of his home by his rival Calandrian and all.  Darn PC interference!

Normally he commands all the equipment you'd expect of a sovereign ruler of a layer of Hell, but right now he's a little low on stuff.  Fortunately, he managed to get his right-hand man (sorry, I really didn't mean to make a pun) out in time... a 40th-level 'demilich' sorcerer.


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## CRGreathouse

Here's another of the creatures my PCs got to deal with.  This one includes equipment, but no great wealth; this is what Calandrian keeps with him (gold in chests nearby, equipment worn or close at hand).  He has another 30,000 gb/7,500,000 gp at his disposal, but liqidating *all* of that requires time, perhaps a week.  It's generally in the form of diamond-encased souls, magic items, gold, and such.

*****

Calandrian is an archdevil the players have effectively allied themselves with.  He controls two layers of Hell now, thanks to PC interference.  Two party members owe large debts to him, and a third regularly does work for him in exchange for arcana and components.

CALANDRIAN
Horned Devil Blackguard 28
Large Outsider (Evil, Extraplanar, Lawful)
Hit Dice: 15d8+20d10+280 (457 hp)
Initiative: +15
Speed: 20 ft, fly 50 ft (average)
Armor Class: 50 (–1 size, +6 Dex, +23 natural, +7 mithral shirt, +5 ring of protection), touch 20, flat-footed 44
Base Attack/Grapple: +20 (+12 EA)/+43
Full Attack: +2 wounding spiked chain +48/+43/+38/+33 melee (2d6+21 plus stun and 1 Con) and bite +44 melee (2d8+6) and tail +44 melee (2d6+6 plus infernal wound); or 2 claws +46 melee (2d6+13) and bite +44  melee (2d8+6) and tail +44 melee (2d6+6 plus infernal wound)
Space/Reach: 10 ft/10 ft (20 ft with spiked chain)
Special Attacks: Fear aura, infernal wound, spell-like abilities, stun, summon devil, spells, smite good, aura of despair, rebuke undead, sneak attack +9d6
Special Qualities: Aura of evil, DR 10/good and silver, DR 6/—, darkvision 60 ft, immunity to fire and poison, acid resistance 10, cold resistance 10, electricity resistance 10, regeneration 5, fast healing 3, see in darkness, spell resistance 28, telepathy 100 ft, detect good, poison use, dark blessing
Saves: Fort +44, Ref +40, Will +42
Abilities: Str 36, Dex 24, Con 26, Int 18, Wis 20, Cha 34 (28 point buy)
Skills: Bluff +40 (25), Climb +31 (18), Concentration +44 (36), Diplomacy +33 (10), Disguise +15 (0) [+19 acting], Heal +29 (24), Hide +21 (18), Intimidate +65 (46), Knowledge (religion) +42 (38), Listen +23 (18), Move Silently +25 (18), Ride +45 (38), Search +22 (18), Sense Motive +31 (26), Spot +23 (18), Survival +5 (0) [+7 following tracks]
Feats: Ability Focus (stun), Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative, Improved Sunder, Multiattack, Power Attack, Quick Draw
Epic Feats: Armor Skin (2), Damage Reduction (2), Dire Charge, Energy Resistance (electricity), Epic Prowess, Epic Will, Fast Healing, Great Smiting, Improved Aura of Despair, Superior Initiative, Widen Aura of Despair
Environment: Nine Hells
Challenge Rating: 32
Treasure: +3 mithral shirt, +2 adamantine wounding spiked chain, +4 cloak of Charisma, amulet of proof against detection and location, circlet of persuasion, +5 ring of protection, 2000 gold bars (2600 gb/650,000 gp)
Alignment: Lawful evil

Calandrian speaks Infernal, Celestial, Common, and Draconic.
Calandrian is 9’11” and weighs 700 pounds.

COMBAT
While horned devils are generally bold fighters, Calandrian has learned caution in his years ruling his layer.  He generally leaves fighting to underlings, though he relishes the opportunity for combat when it is the best course of action.  He resorts to combat when his position is directly challenged, feeling that only direct and stunning victory can guarantee his continued rule.
A horned devil’s natural weapons, as well as any weapons it wields, are treated as evil-aligned and lawful-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Devil Traits:
—Immunity to fire and poison.
—Resistance to acid 10 and cold 10.
—See in Darkness (Su): Horned devils can see perfectly in darkness of any kind, even that created by a deeper darkness spell.
—Telepathy. 
Spell-Like Abilities: At will—dispel chaos (DC 27), dispel good (DC 27), magic circle against good, greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only); persistent image (DC 27) 3/day—fireball (DC 25), lightning bolt (DC 25). Caster level 15th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.
Fear Aura (Su): A horned devil can radiate a 5-foot-radius fear aura as a free action. A creature in the area must succeed on a DC 29 Will save or be affected as though by a fear spell (caster level 15th). A creature that successfully saves cannot be affected again by the same horned devil’s aura for 24 hours. Other devils are immune to the aura. The save DC is Charisma-based.
Stun (Su): Whenever a horned devil hits with a spiked chain attack, the opponent must succeed on a DC 32 Fortitude save or be stunned for 1d4 rounds. The save DC is Strength-based. This ability is a function of the horned devil, not of the spiked chain.
Infernal Wound (Su): The damage a horned devil deals with its tail attack causes a persistent wound. An injured creature loses 2 additional hit points each round. The wound does not heal naturally and resists healing spells. The continuing hit point loss can be stopped by a DC 25 Heal check, a cure spell, or a heal spell. However, a character attempting to cast a cure spell or a heal spell on a creature damaged by a horned devil’s tail must succeed on a DC 24 caster level check, or the spell has no effect on the injured character. A successful Heal check automatically stops the continuing hit point loss as well as restoring hit points. The check DC is Constitution-based.
Summon Devil (Sp): Once per day a horned devil can attempt to summon 2d10 lemures or 1d6 bearded devils with a 50% chance of success, 1d6 barbed devils with a 35% chance of success, or another horned devil with a 20% chance of success. This ability is the equivalent of a 6th-level spell.
Regeneration (Ex): Calandrian takes normal damage from good-aligned silvered weapons, and from spells or effects with the good descriptor.
Blackguard Spells Prepared (–/4/3/3/2):  1–cure light wounds (4); 2–bull’s strength, death knell (2); 3–cure serious wounds, protection from elements (2); 4–freedom of movement, poison.
Aura of Despair (Su): Enemies within 100 feet of Calandrian take a -4 penalty on saving throws.
Rebuke Undead (Su): 11/day, Calandrian can attempt to rebuke undead creatures. He can rebuke undead with no more than (1d20+86)/3 HD (max 30). Each attempt, he rebukes 2d6+37 total HD. Undead with 13 or fewer HD are commanded instead.
Smite Good (Su): 6/day, +12 attack and +56 damage against a good creature.

Fiendish Dire Rat Servant
Small Magical Beast (Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 13d8+13 (71 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 40 ft, climb 20 ft
Armor Class: 26 (+1 size, +3 Dex, +12 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 23
Base Attack/Grapple: +9/+9
Attack: Bite +15 melee (1d4+4 plus disease)
Full Attack: Bite +15 melee (1d4+4 plus disease)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Disease, smite good
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, darkvision 60 ft, scent, cold resistance 10, fire resistance 10, DR 10/magic, SR 25, empathetic link, improved evasion, share saving throws, share spells, speak with Calandrian, blood bond
Saves: Fort +21, Ref +20, Will +18
Abilities: Str 18, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 12, Cha 4
Skills: Climb +11 (0), Hide +8 (1), Listen +13 (10), Move Silently +4 (1), Spot +13 (10), Swim +11 (0)
Feats: Ability Focus (disease), Alertness, Cleave, Power Attack, Weapon Finesse B, Weapon Focus (bite)

Disease (Ex): Filth fever—bite, Fortitude DC 19, incubation period 1d3 days, damage 1d3 Dex and 1d3 Con. The save DC is Constitution-based.
Smite Good (Su): 1/day, +13 damage to a good creature.
Blood Bond (Ex): The fiendish servant gains a +2 bonus on all attack rolls, checks, and saves if it witnesses Calandrian being threatened or harmed.  This bonus lasts as long as the threat is immediate and apparent.
Skills: Fiendish dire rats have a +8 racial bonus on Swim checks. They have a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks and can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened.
Fiendish dire rats use their Dexterity modifier for Climb and Swim checks.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi CRGreathouse mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Of course, my party was average level 19 when they fought it... fortunately they had a bit of help.




Remember that their ability scores would have 'upped' their CR a bit.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi historian mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> This is great news Krust!




Well we are not quite there yet, but getting there I suppose. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Looking very forward to the day when I have the IH in hand!




I appreciate the support from everyone!


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Calandrian is an archdevil the players have effectively allied themselves with. He controls two layers of Hell now, thanks to PC interference. Two party members owe large debts to him, and a third regularly does work for him in exchange for arcana and components.




Interesting stuff, you have me curious as to who governs the rest of Hell in your campaign?



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> CALANDRIAN
> Horned Devil Blackguard 28




If hes a 28th-level Blackguard* = CR 51/EL 23 (50/50 fight for four CR 24-27 PCs)
*Then his hit points are wrong.

If hes a 20th-level Blackguard = CR 43/EL 22 (50/50 fight for four CR 20-23 PCs)


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Interesting stuff, you have me curious as to who governs the rest of Hell in your campaign?




Vigorous hand-waving has allowed me to not address that problem yet.  



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> If hes a 28th-level Blackguard* = CR 51/EL 23 (50/50 fight for four CR 24-27 PCs)
> *Then his hit points are wrong.
> 
> If hes a 20th-level Blackguard = CR 43/EL 22 (50/50 fight for four CR 20-23 PCs)




Yeah, oops.  He's 28th level, with all the feats, skills, and special abilities.  I just forget to update his hit points for some reason...


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi CRGreathouse mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Vigorous hand-waving has allowed me to not address that problem yet.




I may have a few suggestions in the IH for you then...in fact I could go as far as to tell you how many devils of each type every one of your rulers would have under his control. 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Yeah, oops.  He's 28th level, with all the feats, skills, and special abilities.  I just forget to update his hit points for some reason...




Using the Immortals Handbook he would have 744 hit points (maxed you see).


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Using the Immortals Handbook he would have 744 hit points (maxed you see).




If I gave archdevils an effective DvR 0, then I'd have to drop their class levels a bit.  I chose a CR (more or less) and added class levels and abilities to fit.

I look forward to IH thoughts on my other layers!  My cosmology is very nonstandard, but good ideas always translate well.


----------



## tauton_ikhnos

My GM is considering IH. Our 25th level party makes him cry 

Looking at Calandrian, he gets a CR of 51, may have to suggest to GM that he lower all effective ELs by -2 or -4 when determining XP. Not a slam, of course, we're just munchkins


----------



## CRGreathouse

tauton_ikhnos said:
			
		

> My GM is considering IH. Our 25th level party makes him cry
> 
> Looking at Calandrian, he gets a CR of 51, may have to suggest to GM that he lower all effective ELs by -2 or -4 when determining XP. Not a slam, of course, we're just munchkins




I think there's actually a modifier in U_K's CR system for "group is made of nrepentant munchkins".


----------



## Brother Shatterstone

Upper_Krust, if you don't mind a question it seems like alot of people hear seem to have an idea what your book is about, but besides the FAQ I've seen nothing else.  

Has their been a sample released?

Also has a print publisher step forward yet?


----------



## tauton_ikhnos

CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I think there's actually a modifier in U_K's CR system for "group is made of nrepentant munchkins".



That'd be us


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi everyone, sorry for the slow reply but those of you who know me know that I am away from the computer most of Friday and Saturday.   

Hey CRGreathouse mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> If I gave archdevils an effective DvR 0, then I'd have to drop their class levels a bit.  I chose a CR (more or less) and added class levels and abilities to fit.




Well, an Archdevil would absorb most of the Quasi-deity Template into its own abilities, in many ways like an Infernal.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I look forward to IH thoughts on my other layers!  My cosmology is very nonstandard, but good ideas always translate well.




I am sure there will be something in there for you.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi there tauton_ikhnos! 



			
				tauton_ikhnos said:
			
		

> My GM is considering IH.




Well tell them I appreciate the interest. 



			
				tauton_ikhnos said:
			
		

> Our 25th level party makes him cry




Trust me that will no longer be a problem with the IH. 



			
				tauton_ikhnos said:
			
		

> Looking at Calandrian, he gets a CR of 51, may have to suggest to GM that he lower all effective ELs by -2 or -4 when determining XP. Not a slam, of course, we're just munchkins




As CRGreathouse mentioned (thanks mate) I already have provisions for munchkin parties built into my revised Challenge Rating/Encounter Level rules.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Brother Shatterstone mate! 



			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Upper_Krust, if you don't mind a question it seems like alot of people hear seem to have an idea what your book is about, but besides the FAQ I've seen nothing else.




Well to be fair a lot of that is probably due to the protaracted development period.   



			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Has their been a sample released?




I released a prototype of the books appendices for free: specifically three Appendices:

#1. Revised Challenge Rating Rules
#2. Revised Encounter Level Rules
#3. Rules for developing your own monsters and keeping them balanced.

You can find the fourth incarnation here (and thanks to the 883 people who have so far downloaded it)...

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=66470

...the Immortals Handbook will contain the fifth (and final) incarnation of the CR/EL rules.



			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Also has a print publisher step forward yet?




Well the reason I haven't officially disclosed the publisher (although I think I have told some people here in confidence) is because although they have said they want to publish the work I haven't given them a final draft yet and we have yet to discuss terms. So until those things are sorted I will renege on officially pronouncing the publisher.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> You can find the fourth incarnation here (and thanks to the 883 people who have so far downloaded it)...



Excellent!  Make it 884 I will read it here in a few minutes.   (Oh yeah maybe you should stick link in the FAQ for that.  )



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Well the reason I haven't officially disclosed the publisher (although I think I have told some people here in confidence) is because although they have said they want to publish the work I haven't given them a final draft yet and we have yet to discuss terms. So until those things are sorted I will renege on officially pronouncing the publisher.



I can understand all that and I hope it works out for you.  

I asked just cause I was shocked that theirs been a few days now since the Epic was added to the SRD and none of the 3rd party publishers have jumped and said "I'll be first." 

I'll doubt I'll manage to wait till the print book comes out, which is very unusually as I don't really care for pdf, to darn old fashion I like the feel of a book in all. 

So know one more question...  Will the print book have anything extra besides a spine?


----------



## CRGreathouse

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> So know one more question...  Will the print book have anything extra besides a spine?




I'd like to know that, too.  Personally, I'd prefer getting the (print) book out quickly to adding more content... I think I'm only getting the Apotheosis PDF, so getting it into print is key for me.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Brother Shatterstone mate! 



			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Excellent!  Make it 884 I will read it here in a few minutes.




Sure, well let me know what you think. There are a few changes between that version and the final one though, just so you know.



			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> (Oh yeah maybe you should stick link in the FAQ for that.)




Well the reason I didn't was that I didn't want 



			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> I can understand all that and I hope it works out for you.




Thanks mate.



			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> I asked just cause I was shocked that theirs been a few days now since the Epic was added to the SRD and none of the 3rd party publishers have jumped and said "I'll be first."








			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> I'll doubt I'll manage to wait till the print book comes out, which is very unusually as I don't really care for pdf, to darn old fashion I like the feel of a book in all.




Me too.



			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> So know one more question...  Will the print book have anything extra besides a spine?




Well it will have any errata mentioned between the releases.

It will probably have more art.

It may also include all the psionic specific material I have set aside for a web enhancement.

There is another idea I want to include (that may not make the pdfs), but I don't want to mention it incase I end up not adding it and then disappointing people, but it revolves around worshippers lets say that.

I can however see things being constrained by page counts. I mean I have probably already overstretched myself so some of that stuff may have to wait for a follow up product.


----------



## Chosen01

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> I asked just cause I was shocked that theirs been a few days now since the Epic was added to the SRD and none of the 3rd party publishers have jumped and said "I'll be first."



Me and another guy asked who has plans for an Epic book and these are the replies we got:
My thread
Other Thread


----------



## Brother Shatterstone

Chosen01 said:
			
		

> Me and another guy asked who has plans for an Epic book and these are the replies we got:



Chosen, yeah I had seen the threads but for some reason I didn't note Green Ronin's involvement the first time so a reread was indeed a good thing.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Chosen01 mate! 



			
				Chosen01 said:
			
		

> Me and another guy asked who has plans for an Epic book and these are the replies we got:
> My thread
> Other Thread




I'm really looking forward to the Epic Book from Mongoose. I remember they mentioned it a few months back.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi all! 

I just wanted to post two links which are indirectly relevant to the Immortals Handbook.

The first is the new D20 website of 'sonofapreacherman'; which, even though its only just up, already has a wealth of material there! So go check it out and be sure and let him know what you think. 

http://www.wakinglands.com/htm_files/the_main_page.htm

The second link is to an excellent Mighty Thor website (most of you know I am a big Thor fan). Anyway the reason I mentioned it was that they are having a petition to get the Thor movie made and I know there are a few comicbook fans interested in the Immortals Handbook here and I thought one or two of you might want to sign the petition.   

There is no direct link to the petition, but all you have to do is click on the following link and then click on the 'Whats New' button and then the petition link is right in the middle of the screen.

http://users.ev1.net/~peanut/


----------



## Chosen01

Hi Krust!

Can I ask about the website or is the third rule of the Immortals Handbook thread is to NEVER TALK ABOUT THE WEBSITE!


----------



## Upper_Krust

Chosen01 said:
			
		

> Hi Krust!




Hiya mate! 



			
				Chosen01 said:
			
		

> Can I ask about the website or is the third rule of the Immortals Handbook thread is to NEVER TALK ABOUT THE WEBSITE!




Oi! I heard that! 

The website thing is just a matter of time. But of course time doing the website is time not working on the IH! This being my first website means having to learn all the 'ins and outs'...which takes time. Its just a vicious circle.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> The website thing is just a matter of time. But of course time doing the website is time not working on the IH! This being my first website means having to learn all the 'ins and outs'...which takes time. Its just a vicious circle.




I can't write the IH for you, but I might be able to help you with the site when you get that far, if you'd like.  "Back in the day", as it were, when 3E was new, I set up a website with D&D generators -- stat block (character), race (monster), dragon, and so forth.  (Admittedly, the site was never fancy since I was in my KISS mode back then, more concerned with fast loading speeds than with pretty graphics.)


----------



## Chosen01

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> The website thing is just a matter of time. But of course time doing the website is time not working on the IH! This being my first website means having to learn all the 'ins and outs'...which takes time. Its just a vicious circle.



Do you need some ideas for the site?


----------



## jessemock

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> (most of you know I am a big Thor fan)




Does this mean the the IH has rules for turning gods into frogs?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi CRGreathouse and Chosen01 mateys! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I can't write the IH for you, but I might be able to help you with the site when you get that far, if you'd like.  "Back in the day", as it were, when 3E was new, I set up a website with D&D generators -- stat block (character), race (monster), dragon, and so forth.  (Admittedly, the site was never fancy since I was in my KISS mode back then, more concerned with fast loading speeds than with pretty graphics.)




Well its getting the website setup thats the problem for me (the technical side of setting up a website that is) since I haven't done it before. So there should be no problems with content (although I am sure there won't be a great deal to start with, but these things grow and grow).



			
				Chosen01 said:
			
		

> Do you need some ideas for the site?




Well they are always helpful, but I have a fair idea of what I want. Once I get the website up and running I don't forsee any problems with updates and so forth.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey there jessemock! 



			
				jessemock said:
			
		

> Does this mean the the IH has rules for turning gods into frogs?






Well you could already do that with Polymorph magic.

...but say Odin wanted to absorb the essence of all the other Norse deities to combat a race of gigantic Space Gods.

...or if you wanted to blast someone with Anti-force. 

...or create a belt that doubles your strength score.

...you could certainly do all that.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> ...or create a belt that doubles your strength score.




I've got to ask... how would your price a thing like that?


----------



## tauton_ikhnos

'spensive.


----------



## Chosen01

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Well they are always helpful, but I have a fair idea of what I want. Once I get the website up and running I don't forsee any problems with updates and so forth.



I was thinking of a website setup(Too much free time). What do you think of this?

SITE FEATURES:
- News/Home
(Returns to Index.htm)
- Products
Product info, release schedule, reviews…
- Free Stuff
Web Enhancements and other freebies.
- According to Krust
Articles, essays, rants, and just plain ramblings by U_K.
- Campaign Journal
(Similar to this and this)
- Contact Info
- Message Boards
(See below)
- Links

MESSAGE BOARDS: 
- General D&D Discussion
A place to discuss D&D.
- U_K Products 
Discuss the IH and other released products in here.
- Future U_K Projects
Here we talk about future U_K projects like the Immortals Index, Immortals Bestiary II, Dimensional Hierarchies, and stats for Marvel cosmic entities
- Other D20 Products
Discuss other d20 products.
- Mythology, Literature, and Others.
Discuss in here the Immortals found in ancient mythologies, in novels, in comics, etc.
- Epic/Immortal Material
Post your original (or reworked) Epic/Immortal game material here.
- Myths and Legends
A forum for storytelling enthusiasts and budding fiction writers. A place to recount the tales of your Immortals and their world.
- Playing the Immortal Game 
The place for in-character discussion and engage in online roleplaying.
- Immortal Kombat
(Similar to Exodus)
- Misc. Immortal Gaming
Discussion on Amber RPG, D&D Immortals, Primal Order, and others with similar focus on Immortals.
- Website
Forum for posting any suggestions you have or any bugs you find.

I don't really need everything in this list(I mostly lurk) but It should make the IH homepage "The place to go for all your Immortal gaming needs!"


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi CRGreathouse and tauton_ikhnos mateys! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I've got to ask... how would your price a thing like that?




Off the top of my head I actually can't remember -  I would have to check my notes...



			
				tauton_ikhnos said:
			
		

> 'spensive.




...I think it was about 6.25 million gp (IIRC).


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Chosen01 mate! 



			
				Chosen01 said:
			
		

> I was thinking of a website setup (Too much free time ). What do you think of this?
> 
> - According to Krust
> Articles, essays, rants, and just plain ramblings by U_K.






I like this one.



			
				Chosen01 said:
			
		

> - Future U_K Projects
> Here we talk about future U_K projects like the Immortals Index, Immortals Bestiary II, Dimensional Hierarchies, and stats for Marvel cosmic entities








			
				Chosen01 said:
			
		

> I don't really need everything in this list (I mostly lurk ) but It should make the IH homepage "The place to go for all your Immortal gaming needs!"




I was thinking also a Reviews page; maybe an Art page.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> ...I think it was about 6.25 million gp (IIRC).




So about the cost of a _belt of dragon strength +25_?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> So about the cost of a _belt of dragon strength +25_?




I am not familiar with such an item (wheres that from?), but it would indeed cost the same.


----------



## blackshirt5

So, any idea when it's coming out UK?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi blackshirt mate! 



			
				blackshirt5 said:
			
		

> So, any idea when it's coming out UK?




Yes thanks, I have quite a good idea when it'll be ready. 

Over the next few days I will be putting 'operation website' into action. 

One other question is the name for the website (does it even matter?). I am not sure whether to make it immortal-centric or me-centric or something else.

I had an idea to call it bifrost.com but I am not so sure.   

Any thoughts on the name from people?


----------



## CRGreathouse

http://www.immortaluk.com/
http://www.theimmortaluk.com/
http://www.krustsimmortals.com/
http://www.immortalshandbook.com/
http://www.immortalshb.com/
http://www.ukgods.com/

and, to rip a page from Chosen01's playbook,
http://www.accordingtokrust.com/


----------



## Chosen01

upperkrust.net/immortals/

You should insert your real name but I think Upper_Krust has become a recognized brand name

EDIT: I just found out that upperkrust.com is already taken so I changed .com to .net



			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> I thought that was him name!





I think Craig Cochrane is the real name.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone

Chosen01 said:
			
		

> You should insert your real name but I think Upper_Krust has become a recognized brand name



I thought that was him name!


----------



## CRGreathouse

Chosen01 said:
			
		

> upperkrust.com/immortals/




That's already taken.


----------



## Chosen01

CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> That's already taken.



D'OH


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Chosen01 and Brother Shatterstone mateys! 



			
				Chosen01 said:
			
		

> You should insert your real name but I think Upper_Krust has become a recognized brand name.




I dunno, I wouldn't want to get it confused with the 'deli'.



			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> I thought that was him name!




Oi! Cheeky monkey!


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi CRGreathouse mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> http://www.immortaluk.com/
> http://www.theimmortaluk.com/
> http://www.krustsimmortals.com/
> http://www.immortalshandbook.com/
> http://www.immortalshb.com/
> http://www.ukgods.com/
> 
> and, to rip a page from Chosen01's playbook,
> http://www.accordingtokrust.com/




The above all seem a bit wishy washy to me. I would certainly prefer something simpler; like perhaps: 

www.craigcochrane.com

www.immortality.com

www.bifrost.com

I am not sure I like the idea of just using my name, to me thats something you do after you 'make your name', not before.

Immortality is okay; though assumes everything is immortal centric; which it pretty much will be in the short term at least.

Bifrost is a bit more esoteric; but still relevant (being of course the fabled rainbow bridge which leads you from Midgard to Asgard in Norse Myth) - and of course the connotations make the design of the website that much easier.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> www.craigcochrane.com
> 
> www.immortality.com
> 
> www.bifrost.com
> 
> I am not sure I like the idea of just using my name, to me thats something you do after you 'make your name', not before.
> 
> Immortality is okay; though assumes everything is immortal centric; which it pretty much will be in the short term at least.
> 
> Bifrost is a bit more esoteric; but still relevant (being of course the fabled rainbow bridge which leads you from Midgard to Asgard in Norse Myth) - and of course the connotations make the design of the website that much easier.




I'm lukewarm at best on bifrost.com, but it's your website not mine.  I'd sooner go with either of your others.


----------



## blackshirt5

I think you should name it www.dammitthisbookneedstocomeoutIneedsesityesImmortalsHandbookismyprecious.com but that's just me.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey CRGreathouse and Blackshirt mateys! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I'm lukewarm at best on bifrost.com, but it's your website not mine.  I'd sooner go with either of your others.




Perhaps immortality is the way to go then.

I did some brainstorming last night and I have a few interesting ideas for the site. 



			
				Blackshirt said:
			
		

> I think you should name it http://www.dammitthisbookneedstocom...smyprecious.com but that's just me.




...you don't think its a bit long then?


----------



## Revenge of the Bjorn

Never mind the length, but do you really want profanity right in the web address?  Ladies could be present....


----------



## Kavon

Hmm... I think I like the Bifrost one more, actually 

Has a bit more flavor to it I guess


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Bjorn and Kavon mateys! 



			
				Revenge of the Bjorn said:
			
		

> Never mind the length, but do you really want profanity right in the web address?  Ladies could be present....




Very true! 



			
				Kavon said:
			
		

> Hmm... I think I like the Bifrost one more, actually
> 
> Has a bit more flavor to it I guess.




Okay so what do the rest of you think if it was between 

www.bifrost.com

or

www.immortality.com

?


----------



## BSF

Well, being a Norse Mythology fan, I would say Bifrost.com.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi BardStephenFox mate! 



			
				BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> Well, being a Norse Mythology fan, I would say Bifrost.com.




Okay thats 2 to 1 in favour of bifrost at the moment; what say the rest of you!?

Obviously this doesn't really affect the content.


----------



## Matrix Sorcica

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Okay thats 2 to 1 in favour of bifrost at the moment; what say the rest of you!?
> 
> Obviously this doesn't really affect the content.





I really don't care for Bifrost. Maybe it's bacause I'm Scandinavian, but I think that the name limits what the IH is about. It leaves me with a feeling that this is about the Norse mythology mainly, and not about epic, divine immortals in generel.
And seconly and even worse, back in the seventies there was some sort of performance act (in Denmark) called Bifrost. Stoned hippies dancing around with flowers in their hair. Somehow that's not the image I like to get whenever I'm to check out the website   

What about something like immortality.com/net, or theih.com/net, i-h.net/com or theihb or ihb. I dont know. But I would like something more 'epic' than bifrost (though I love Norse mythology). If you want to use something from that mythology, how about Valhalla? Home of the gods and the destination of all brave souls!


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hate to have led you all on a wild goose chase but it seems both bifrost and immortality are taken (I had only checked the URLs).

I am currently reviewing other options.

Four that I have fully checked are:

craigcochrane.com
metamortal.com
upper-krust.com
immortalshandbook.com (but this one seems a bit narrow)

Let me know what you think.

Hey Sorcica mate! 



			
				Sorcica said:
			
		

> I really don't care for Bifrost. Maybe it's bacause I'm Scandinavian, but I think that the name limits what the IH is about. It leaves me with a feeling that this is about the Norse mythology mainly, and not about epic, divine immortals in generel.




Noted.



			
				Sorcica said:
			
		

> And seconly and even worse, back in the seventies there was some sort of performance act (in Denmark) called Bifrost. Stoned hippies dancing around with flowers in their hair. Somehow that's not the image I like to get whenever I'm to check out the website




Well maye we can set up some sort of homage page to the band in the event we use that domain name.  



			
				Sorcica said:
			
		

> What about something like immortality.com/net,




Both taken. 



			
				Sorcica said:
			
		

> or theih.com/net, i-h.net/com or theihb or ihb.




Sound a bit wishy washy.



			
				Sorcica said:
			
		

> I dont know. But I would like something more 'epic' than bifrost (though I love Norse mythology). If you want to use something from that mythology, how about Valhalla? Home of the gods and the destination of all brave souls!




Valhalla is unavailable.


----------



## Chosen01

Hi Krust!

Use Latin for some flavor.

immortalislibri.com
factusdeus.com
factusdivinus.com
superum.com


----------



## tauton_ikhnos

This one really grabbed my eye: metamortal.com


----------



## CRGreathouse

My preferences (in order):
1. metamortal.com
2. immortalshandbook.com
3. craigcochrane.com
4. upper-krust.com

Integrating Chosen01's suggestions:
1. metamortal.com
2. immortalshandbook.com
3. craigcochrane.com
4. superum.com
5. upper-krust.com
6. factusdeus.com
7. factusdivinus.com
8. immortalislibri.com

(Sorry, Chosen01!)


----------



## Revenge of the Bjorn

upper-krust.com seem the most reasonable to me. Using your real name just seems hokey to me, and I'd consider Upper Krust almost to be your online persona.  Metamortal definately sounds better than immortalshandbook to me....


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey all! 

Thanks so much for the opinions.



			
				Chosen01 said:
			
		

> Hi Krust!
> 
> Use Latin for some flavor.
> 
> immortalislibri.com
> factusdeus.com
> factusdivinus.com
> superum.com




I actually tried a number of Latin words and phrases (such as deusexmachina and demiurge) which turned out to be already taken. 

I don't really want to use any latin that won't immediately be recognisable to english speakers.



			
				tauton_ikhnos said:
			
		

> This one really grabbed my eye: metamortal.com




Funniliy enough everyone seems to have been picking up on that one and liking it. 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> My preferences (in order):
> 1. metamortal.com
> 2. immortalshandbook.com
> 3. craigcochrane.com
> 4. upper-krust.com
> 
> Integrating Chosen01's suggestions:
> 1. metamortal.com
> 2. immortalshandbook.com
> 3. craigcochrane.com
> 4. superum.com
> 5. upper-krust.com
> 6. factusdeus.com
> 7. factusdivinus.com
> 8. immortalislibri.com
> 
> (Sorry, Chosen01!)




Well I think Chosen01's suggestions were a bit obscure.



			
				Revenge of the Bjorn said:
			
		

> upper-krust.com seem the most reasonable to me. Using your real name just seems hokey to me, and I'd consider Upper Krust almost to be your online persona. Metamortal definately sounds better than immortalshandbook to me....




Well I agree using my own name sounds naff. I dunno about Upper-Krust; I mean the site is only indirectly about me. Its more to do with Immortals and that sort of thing.


----------



## Chosen01

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hey all!
> 
> Thanks so much for the opinions.
> 
> I actually tried a number of Latin words and phrases (such as deusexmachina and demiurge) which turned out to be already taken.
> 
> I don't really want to use any latin that won't immediately be recognisable to english speakers.



Its cool. I just thought you might like something that sounds esoteric. Anyway, I vote for metamortal.com


----------



## Matrix Sorcica

Chosen01 said:
			
		

> Its cool. I just thought you might like something that sounds esoteric. Anyway, I vote for metamortal.com




I like metamortal.com as well   

Hey Krust, if you choose to go the Upper_Krust.com way, www.uk.co.uk is free   

Later,


----------



## -Eä-

Personally I would prefer www.upper-krust.com. It has a nice feel and it would allow for many other products, not related to the Immortal's Handbook in the future. To me metamortal.com sounds a bit blaaish. While you may want to have a domain that associates to your main product, I think it is a bit narrow in scope. You never know what you will do in the future. That's my reasoning. You don't want to create a new domain each time you create a new product (unrelated to the WPS)?

If you do want to associate the website to your WPS, I would certainly go for www.immortalshandbook.com. That's standard procedure and it won't lead people astray (as it might with www.metamortal.com).

I did like www.uk.co.uk (-;


----------



## Kavon

Hmm... If it were to become upper-krust.com.. wouldn't it be better to make it upper*_*krust.com?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi all! 



			
				Chosen01 said:
			
		

> Its cool. I just thought you might like something that sounds esoteric.




Well esoteric...but familiar. 



			
				Chosen01 said:
			
		

> Anyway, I vote for metamortal.com




Thanks for the feedback mate!



			
				Sorcica said:
			
		

> I like metamortal.com as well




Thanks for the feedback too matey!



			
				Sorcica said:
			
		

> Hey Krust, if you choose to go the Upper_Krust.com way, www.uk.co.uk is free
> 
> Later,








			
				-Eä- said:
			
		

> Personally I would prefer www.upper-krust.com. It has a nice feel and it would allow for many other products, not related to the Immortal's Handbook in the future.




The thrust behind the website is the Immortal stuff though.



			
				-Eä- said:
			
		

> To me metamortal.com sounds a bit blaaish. While you may want to have a domain that associates to your main product, I think it is a bit narrow in scope. You never know what you will do in the future.
> 
> That's my reasoning. You don't want to create a new domain each time you create a new product (unrelated to the WPS)?




I think these sites need a unique selling point and I think Immortals are mine. Of course I have ideas for non-immortal stuff but for the forseable future I will be concentrating on Immortal related material.



			
				Kavon said:
			
		

> Hmm... If it were to become upper-krust.com.. wouldn't it be better to make it upper_krust.com?




Tried it. Apparently you can only use certain punctuation.

I appreciate all the feedback, at this point metamortal is the clear favourite. I have the basic site design worked out, but I need to create all the various elements and so forth. Then theres the web provider. Then the Message Boards. More content, yadda yadda.


----------



## Valnauron Isthiliel

*Hello*

Hello,
    I just wanted to say that this thread caught my eye a few days ago, and from what I have read so far, The Immortal's Handbook is definitely going to be on my shopping list. The party that I DM is only 10th Level, so they still have a ways to go, but in the meantime I will definitly use the IH to flesh out my campaign. (Deities and Demigods was rather sub- standard IMHO, was only useful as a sort of divine monster book). I do have one question: will the IH be 3.0 or 3.5 compatible (or both)? Anyway, keep up the good work.

P.S. I like Metamortal too, but I also think Omnipotence would be a very cool URL that would sort of reflect the IH and your sig.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Valnauron Isthiliel said:
			
		

> Hello,




Hi there Valnauron Isthiliel! 



			
				Valnauron Isthiliel said:
			
		

> I just wanted to say that this thread caught my eye a few days ago, and from what I have read so far, The Immortal's Handbook is definitely going to be on my shopping list.




Well I certainly appreciate the interest mate. 



			
				Valnauron Isthiliel said:
			
		

> The party that I DM is only 10th Level, so they still have a ways to go, but in the meantime I will definitly use the IH to flesh out my campaign.




Thats what its there for, there is a lot of simple stuff for detailing religions from deities and vice versa, before you even get to Epic/Immortal levels. 



			
				Valnauron Isthiliel said:
			
		

> (Deities and Demigods was rather sub- standard IMHO, was only useful as a sort of divine monster book).




It was a bit confused to say the least, neither one thing nor the other with regards creating a proper framework for either Immortal Characters or Religions.



			
				Valnauron Isthiliel said:
			
		

> I do have one question: will the IH be 3.0 or 3.5 compatible (or both)?




3.5 Compatible. I thought most of the changes were beneficial.



			
				Valnauron Isthiliel said:
			
		

> Anyway, keep up the good work.




Hey thanks. 



			
				Valnauron Isthiliel said:
			
		

> P.S. I like Metamortal too,




Yes, it seems 90%+ seem to like metamortal as the site name, and since you can't please all the people all the time its plausible I may run with that.



			
				Valnauron Isthiliel said:
			
		

> but I also think Omnipotence would be a very cool URL that would sort of reflect the IH and your sig.




I just checked its unavailable unfortunately.


----------



## Valnauron Isthiliel

Hello again, Upper_Krust;


			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> 3.5 Compatible. I thought most of the changes were beneficial.



    OK, just wondering (Currently their is one 3.5e PHB and one DMG between our whole group, but that should eventually change...). 


			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Thats what its there for, there is a lot of simple stuff for detailing religions from deities and vice versa, before you even get to Epic/Immortal levels.



    That's cool. I am curious to see if the entities that I currently have penciled in as Greater Gods (and one Over- God) do not actually fit in somewhere above that. As it sounds from what I have read so far, I think most of my pantheon could be expanded into other categories above "Immortals". The one overgod is neutral and is sort of supposed to be the universe incarnate, and the greater gods personify the other eight alignments (with pure Good, Evil, Law, and Chaos being stronger then the combination alignments. My intermediate gods are kind of like the things in Greek mythology that came right before Titans and right after Chaos (i.e. Gaia, Tartarus, Erebus, Night, Hemera, Phos, et al). Can you tell me where these types of beings fit under your system?


----------



## Dark Wolf 97

*Srd*

Hey U-K!

I know it may seem like too little, too late, but the SRD has been updated for epic levels, which is pretty much everything you need, eh? And uh...Hi by the way. I've been gone for over a month due to a problem with my cable co.   

here is a link to the SRD:
SRD 3.5 with epic. 

So happy birthday!


----------



## Upper_Krust

Valnauron Isthiliel said:
			
		

> Hello again, Upper_Krust;




Hiya mate! 



			
				Valnauron Isthiliel said:
			
		

> OK, just wondering (Currently their is one 3.5e PHB and one DMG between our whole group, but that should eventually change...).




Well from what I have read of both, 3.5 is a definite improvement. So I definitely recommend them to your group. 



			
				Valnauron Isthiliel said:
			
		

> That's cool. I am curious to see if the entities that I currently have penciled in as Greater Gods (and one Over- God) do not actually fit in somewhere above that. As it sounds from what I have read so far, I think most of my pantheon could be expanded into other categories above "Immortals". The one overgod is neutral and is sort of supposed to be the universe incarnate, and the greater gods personify the other eight alignments (with pure Good, Evil, Law, and Chaos being stronger then the combination alignments. My intermediate gods are kind of like the things in Greek mythology that came right before Titans and right after Chaos (i.e. Gaia, Tartarus, Erebus, Night, Hemera, Phos, et al). Can you tell me where these types of beings fit under your system?




Yes.

Well the 'universe incarnate' figure might be a First One, or beyond.

The 'alignment personifications' could well sit as Old Ones, or First Ones.

Your 'intermediate gods' may well be Elder Ones, or Old Ones.

The final decision is obviously up to you. In the Immortals Handbook I'll better explain all the divine ranks and how to set up your cosmology (no sense going into that now). I also show what I think is the best way to do it then people can just choose the 'cut off point' that best suits their campaign.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Dark Wolf 97 said:
			
		

> Hey U-K!




Hi Dark Wolf matey! 



			
				Dark Wolf 97 said:
			
		

> I know it may seem like too little, too late, but the SRD has been updated for epic levels, which is pretty much everything you need, eh?




Absolutely. 

For anyone still wondering why there are still delays with the IH (for which I again apologise), have a look at the credits of your d20 books. Note down how many people they have and how it still takes over a year before such books see print. Then add a website into the mix. Then realise that I have set it upon myself to do virtually everything, alone.

Of course the bottom line is that regardless of all that I still should have had the book finished by now. But we all have our crosses to bear I suppose. 



			
				Dark Wolf 97 said:
			
		

> And uh...Hi by the way.




Always nice to hear from you mate! 



			
				Dark Wolf 97 said:
			
		

> I've been gone for over a month due to a problem with my cable co.




That sucks.  



			
				Dark Wolf 97 said:
			
		

> here is a link to the SRD:
> SRD 3.5 with epic.




Thanks mate...although obviously I had this downloaded on day one. 



			
				Dark Wolf 97 said:
			
		

> So happy birthday!




It ain't quite my birthday yet (in both the literal and metaphorical sense) unfortunately.


----------



## Revenge of the Bjorn

Hey Krust do you still plan on staggering the release of the PDF's?  And if so which one will contain the bits on setting up a cosmology?


----------



## Melkor Lord Of ALL!

Upper Krust, do you have some rules about what happens if Deity is stripped of his/her Divine Power? I have an ex-God in my game, Gallandor, former LE Lesser Deity of Tyranny, Nobility and Warfare who was banished by a Council of Greater Powers for breaking Divine Law( he tried to interfere after my players destroyed his Avatar during enormous battle). Gallandor secretly took refuge in Baator, where he made an alliance with Archdevil Azazel, The Corrupter of Souls. Together they plan to overthrow Mephistopheles, master of Azazel. In order to achieve this task, they want to use power of Chainbreaker, a mighty Artifact that is incredibly deadly against LE outsiders, a Sword currently held by one of Player Characters in my game, an epic equivalent of Paladin ,but CG( Gallandor plans to make him fall from The Light and turn into Blackguard and his General, he will begin by destroying all he loves, so lust of revenge would overcome a noble heart).
  But back to my question: what would be the status of Gallandor as Ex-Deity, I assume he would be a simple Outsider, but keep all Levels and Hit Dice he had as a Lesser God, right? And as I remember you consider Lords of The Nine to be Lesser Deities Equivalents, so powerful Archdevil like Azazel, and a chief servant of Mephistopheles would be a Demigod equivalent?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Bjorn matey! 



			
				Revenge of the Bjorn said:
			
		

> Hey Krust do you still plan on staggering the release of the PDF's?




Only by a few weeks (Maybe one month for the Bestiary pdf because there is so much art in that).



			
				Revenge of the Bjorn said:
			
		

> And if so which one will contain the bits on setting up a cosmology?




There will be some of that in the first pdf (Apotheosis) but the main bulk will be in the fourth pdf (Chronicle).


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Melkor mate! 



			
				Melkor said:
			
		

> Upper Krust, do you have some rules about what happens if Deity is stripped of his/her Divine Power?




Yes, although the outcome depends on the circumstances. Typically an Immortal consolidates at Quasi-deity level. A Sidereal consolidates at Greater Deity level.

Example of a consolidated Sidereals could be the Greek Titans for instance.



			
				Melkor said:
			
		

> I have an ex-God in my game, Gallandor, former LE Lesser Deity of Tyranny, Nobility and Warfare who was banished by a Council of Greater Powers for breaking Divine Law (he tried to interfere after my players destroyed his Avatar during enormous battle). Gallandor secretly took refuge in Baator, where he made an alliance with Archdevil Azazel, The Corrupter of Souls. Together they plan to overthrow Mephistopheles, master of Azazel. In order to achieve this task, they want to use power of Chainbreaker, a mighty Artifact that is incredibly deadly against LE outsiders, a Sword currently held by one of Player Characters in my game, an epic equivalent of Paladin ,but CG (Gallandor plans to make him fall from The Light and turn into Blackguard and his General, he will begin by destroying all he loves, so lust of revenge would overcome a noble heart).




Cool! 

I take it the sword isn't itself aligned?



			
				Melkor said:
			
		

> But back to my question: what would be the status of Gallandor as Ex-Deity, I assume he would be a simple Outsider, but keep all Levels and Hit Dice he had as a Lesser God, right?




This is tricky to explain. He would keep all his levels but he might not keep all his Hit Dice. He would also retain Quasi-deity power.

My guess (without knowing all the details) is that his Hit Dice would be halved; or reduced to 20; whichever gives him the most. 



			
				Melkor said:
			
		

> And as I remember you consider Lords of The Nine to be Lesser Deities Equivalents, so powerful Archdevil like Azazel, and a chief servant of Mephistopheles would be a Demigod equivalent?




Close. The Archdevils would be Demigods with the three greatest Archdevils being Lesser Gods. I don't really want to explain this but there is a very simple and cool reason why - you'll really like how I explain the progression.


----------



## Melkor Lord Of ALL!

Cool! :cool:

I take it the sword isn't itself aligned?

 
;)[/QUOTE said:
			
		

> Actually it is an intelligent weapon, forged by Greater Deity of CG Alignment for his Divine Champions! But Azazel and Gallandor believe that if they manage to turn its owner into a Blackguard, it will affect his link with The Artifact and it will also become corrupted or they would be able to twist it with evil rituals, but they might be walking dangerous ground, consequences will be quite interesting nevertheless... I am confident that some of your new magic rules would allow for a ritual that reverses an alignment of mighty artifact, wouldn`t they?


----------



## Chosen01

Hi all, check out Kerrick's Legendary Spell Creation Rules


----------



## Kavon

Hmm... Are they working on that site right now?

I'm getting a 'Not Found', and when I go to http://greyhawkonline.com/ it doesn't have an index.html file. o__o


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Kavon mate! 



			
				Kavon said:
			
		

> Hmm... Are they working on that site right now?
> 
> I'm getting a 'Not Found', and when I go to http://greyhawkonline.com/ it doesn't have an index.html file. o__o




You have to copy and paste the link to get it to work.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Chosen01 mate! 



			
				Chosen01 said:
			
		

> Hi all, check out Kerrick's Legendary Spell Creation Rules




Very interesting stuff, the end result is similar to my own spell system; though the way you get there is notably different.


----------



## Kavon

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hi Kavon mate!




Hey U_K 



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> You have to copy and paste the link to get it to work.



Ah! Ok, thanks


----------



## Revenge of the Bjorn

You know, I had this question way back in the begining but I'm pretty sure it never came up (or I never asked it).  Where does the idea of gods obtaining power from worship come from?  It has come up in other places like the PC game Black and White, or Neil Gaiman's American Gods but I don't see any mythological origin for the idea.  The only idea that seems like a reasonable origin is the fact that often as cultures change or come in contact with other cultures, gods are formed, changed, replaced and so on, but it never seemed quite right to me that a game of mythic gods should have the cosmic "rules" based on human...err...psychology or history or anthropology or what is it here?  So is that where the idea comes from or somewhere else?  This thread needed resucetation anyway.....


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Bjorn mate! 

Apologies for my sloth. First my computer was down for days, then (when I got things working again) I found ENWorld was as slow as ever (I couldn't post from yesterday afternoon onwards!).



			
				Revenge of the Bjorn said:
			
		

> You know, I had this question way back in the begining but I'm pretty sure it never came up (or I never asked it).  Where does the idea of gods obtaining power from worship come from?




I don't know, it seems natural to me. Though in truth I got the idea from Simon, who set up the idea back in about 1988/89 when he created the Worship Point System.

I can't remember what initially inspired him. I'll ask him next time I see him online.

EDIT: Okay I just asked Simon and he says he just got the idea from the Experience Points table; simply applying it represent a sort of divine experience points which were then gained by worshippers.



			
				Revenge of the Bjorn said:
			
		

> It has come up in other places like the PC game Black and White, or Neil Gaiman's American Gods but I don't see any mythological origin for the idea.




Note that both of those ideas are fairly recent ones.



			
				Revenge of the Bjorn said:
			
		

> The only idea that seems like a reasonable origin is the fact that often as cultures change or come in contact with other cultures, gods are formed, changed, replaced and so on, but it never seemed quite right to me that a game of mythic gods should have the cosmic "rules" based on human...err...psychology or history or anthropology or what is it here?  So is that where the idea comes from or somewhere else?  This thread needed resucetation anyway.....




The idea that there is a connection when you devote yourself to (a) god is something I see working two ways (in RPGs) in that you have to give a part of yourself to get something back (eg. Granted spells, abilities).


----------



## tauton_ikhnos

Upper Krust said:
			
		

> I don't know, it seems natural to me.



It is 

In most cultures, worship was done to benefit worshippers - most forms of worship are an attempt to close the distance to divinity, to connect with the godhead. Worship-as-energy-sacrifice comes from seeing the gods as "no better" than people, so _ulterior motive_ must be present. Examples:
- ego boost: from having people bow and scrape
- *energy investiture*: some goes back to miracles, "investment growth" 
- manpower: gods can do small miracles, but not achieve large scale "events"
- survival: gods only exist so long as they are believed in

None are new ideas, but only come up in cultures tolerant of heresy and/or very pragmatic. Latter Roman Empire had phrase _do ut des_ ("I give that you may give"), which was said during sacrifices and making pacts with gods.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi tauton_ikhnos mate! 



			
				tauton_ikhnos said:
			
		

> It is
> 
> In most cultures, worship was done to benefit worshippers - most forms of worship are an attempt to close the distance to divinity, to connect with the godhead. Worship-as-energy-sacrifice comes from seeing the gods as "no better" than people, so _ulterior motive_ must be present. Examples:
> - ego boost: from having people bow and scrape
> - *energy investiture*: some goes back to miracles, "investment growth"
> - manpower: gods can do small miracles, but not achieve large scale "events"
> - survival: gods only exist so long as they are believed in
> 
> None are new ideas, but only come up in cultures tolerant of heresy and/or very pragmatic. Latter Roman Empire had phrase _do ut des_ ("I give that you may give"), which was said during sacrifices and making pacts with gods.




Very interesting turn of phrase. 

I was also thinking that there has to be some point to (living) 'sacrifices'; otherwise that makes less sense. The souls must feed something other than the priests egos.

I am not sure I agree with you last point (Survival), since that takes away their individuality. Although I see no reason why it couldn't be set up that way.


----------



## tauton_ikhnos

Survival just one example of many. Energy investiture is the main ulterior motive your system seems to use, but cultures have used all of those. Only real-world examples of survival-as-motive that I know of are all ancestor worship. Doesn't seem to take away individuality of ancestors.



			
				Upper Krust said:
			
		

> I was also thinking that there has to be some point to (living) 'sacrifices'; otherwise that makes less sense. The souls must feed something other than the priests egos.



That is essentially the Aztec belief - the gods sacrificed their own blood to create world, so man had to reciprocate. They believed gods ate (most cultures do to some degree, hence sacrifice of food items), but ate only pure magic... of which most abundant source was human blood & human hearts. (though Quetzacouatl driven out in some stories because he was against human sacrifice).

My favorite reason for human sacrifice is as messenger: some cultures would sacrifice someone only in direst situation, to "send him to other side" to plead for his people in person.


----------



## jessemock

> Where does the idea of gods obtaining power from worship come from?




Greece.  Or rather, the way that Christian Greeks interpreted the decline of reverence for the Greek gods (and the effect that this had on the gods).

I came across this notion ages ago, in a book that actually pre-dated RPGs!  I've been trying to find a link or quote, but I've been unsuccessful as yet.





			
				tauton_ikhnos said:
			
		

> My favorite reason for human sacrifice...




If only I knew or cared to know how to make sigs.


----------



## The Serge

Hello, U_K.  It's been a while!

If you don't mind, please let your friends at Dicefreaks know when the pdfs are released.  I know that quite a few of our members (among whom you're numbered) are eagerly anticipating the release of _The Immortals Handbook_.

If you don't mind, I'd like to post a link to this thread at Dicefreaks.

Later!


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				tauton_ikhnos said:
			
		

> Survival just one example of many. Energy investiture is the main ulterior motive your system seems to use, but cultures have used all of those. Only real-world examples of survival-as-motive that I know of are all ancestor worship. Doesn't seem to take away individuality of ancestors.




If we indelibly link worship to survival then it takes away the gods individuality (since destroying a gods worshippers would destroy them without any say in the matter). This is still technically possible in my system if a worship points vacuum occurs but such a thing can only happen through PC negligence.

Having divinity require worship by necessity is wrong on a number of levels, the most obvious being that it alienates Demon Lords and the like.



			
				tauton_ikhnos said:
			
		

> That is essentially the Aztec belief - the gods sacrificed their own blood to create world, so man had to reciprocate. They believed gods ate (most cultures do to some degree, hence sacrifice of food items), but ate only pure magic... of which most abundant source was human blood & human hearts. (though Quetzacouatl driven out in some stories because he was against human sacrifice).




Funnily enough I have Tezcatlipoca as the head of the Aztec Pantheon...I wanted a Chaotic Evil example in there.



			
				tauton_ikhnos said:
			
		

> My favorite reason for human sacrifice is as messenger: some cultures would sacrifice someone only in direst situation, to "send him to other side" to plead for his people in person.




Thats an interesting viewpoint. I already have the mechanics of Sacrificial Magic done and the above idea would simply be a matter of semantics.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi there jessemock! 



			
				jessemock said:
			
		

> Greece.  Or rather, the way that Christian Greeks interpreted the decline of reverence for the Greek gods (and the effect that this had on the gods).
> 
> I came across this notion ages ago, in a book that actually pre-dated RPGs!  I've been trying to find a link or quote, but I've been unsuccessful as yet.




That seems a plausible origin. Thanks for that.



			
				jessemock said:
			
		

> If only I knew or cared to know how to make sigs.




Click on the 'My Account' button at the top of each page.


----------



## Upper_Krust

The Serge said:
			
		

> Hello, U_K.




Hey Serge matey! 



			
				The Serge said:
			
		

> It's been a while!




Too long mate. Probably my fault I should make an appearance at Dicefreaks more often, although my accounts are all boggled there (long story) and signing in is no longer straightforward - I should have brought that to the attention of one of the moderators but I just got distracted with other things...one thing led to another...you know how it is.   



			
				The Serge said:
			
		

> If you don't mind, please let your friends at Dicefreaks know when the pdfs are released.




I will indeed. Won't be long now (even though I have probably said that in the past); its really only a matter of copying up my the notes...although theres a lot of notes. 



			
				The Serge said:
			
		

> I know that quite a few of our members (among whom you're numbered) are eagerly anticipating the release of _The Immortals Handbook_.




I appreciate their support - and none are anticipating the release as much as myself, let me assure you. 



			
				The Serge said:
			
		

> If you don't mind, I'd like to post a link to this thread at Dicefreaks.




Sure, fire away!



			
				The Serge said:
			
		

> Later!




Always a pleasure mate.


----------



## tauton_ikhnos

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> That seems a plausible origin. Thanks for that.



Existed before Christian Greeks. For example, Romans . Possibly Babylon. Possibly Egypt, depending on how you interpret some small pictures of what might or might not be sacrifices. (_edit: and your interpretation of Egyptian thoughts on ka aspect of soul_).

What I said before, more clearly: if it seems a natural assumption to make, that is because it is. Assuming gods have ulterior motive, mana consumption is one of the easiest/most sensical to have. Plenty of cultures have assumed ulterior motive, and plenty of _those_ came to idea of mana consumption.

Tendency is to point at an early example, say "Ah ha!", and call it origin point. Truth is less certain.

...

Apologies for ranting. Unlikely to be of sufficient interest to anyone but me .


----------



## jessemock

tauton_ikhnos said:
			
		

> Tendency is to point at an early example, say "Ah ha!", and call it origin point. Truth is less certain.
> 
> ...
> 
> Apologies for ranting. Unlikely to be of sufficient interest to anyone but me .





Um...what did I say about the Greeks and human sacrifice?


----------



## tauton_ikhnos

Sorry, wasn't clear, not talking about human sacrifice - talking about gods getting power from worship, whether worship form is sacrifice or not. In general, the romans didn't sacrifice humans, either.


----------



## Kavon

*digs for a bit*

ah, here it is 


Hey U_K 

How's things going with the book so far? 
Computer still working ok?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Kavon said:
			
		

> *digs for a bit*
> 
> ah, here it is




Cheeky!   



			
				Kavon said:
			
		

> Hey U_K




Hi Kavon mate! 



			
				Kavon said:
			
		

> How's things going with the book so far?
> Computer still working ok?




Okay I don't want to get anyones hopes up but I think this is definately the month. Just don't tell anyone.

Work on the book is going well.

I should also have the website finished tonight. But before everyone starts celebrating just yet - I haven't bought the domain name or the webspace yet, there are a few complications in that regard, notably that I don't have either a credit card or the cash at the moment. 

However, sonofapreacherman saw the very early build of the site last night (since I sent him a copy of the source code and he was just able to plug it into dreamweaver) and he said he liked the basic layout.

I'll get all the design finished tonight, and then I'll start adding all the content, so that when I do get to upload the site there will be enough there to keep you all interested.


----------



## Kavon

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Cheeky!








			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hi Kavon mate!




Hey again U_K 



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Okay I don't want to get anyones hopes up but I think this is definately the month. Just don't tell anyone.




Work on the book is going well.[/quote]

Ah, that's good to hear 



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I should also have the website finished tonight. But before everyone starts celebrating just yet - I haven't bought the domain name or the webspace yet, there are a few complications in that regard, notably that I don't have either a credit card or the cash at the moment.
> 
> However, sonofapreacherman saw the very early build of the site last night (since I sent him a copy of the source code and he was just able to plug it into dreamweaver) and he said he liked the basic layout.
> 
> I'll get all the design finished tonight, and then I'll start adding all the content, so that when I do get to upload the site there will be enough there to keep you all interested.




Well, I'm sure it'll work out fine 
Looking forward to seeing the site


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Okay I don't want to get anyones hopes up but I think this is definately the month. Just don't tell anyone.




That's OK, I trust you.

Should I put "Only 392 days until the Immortals Handbook!" in my .sig?

As to the website, it sounds exciting... I can't wait.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi CRGreathouse mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> That's OK, I trust you.
> 
> Should I put "Only 392 days until the Immortals Handbook!" in my .sig?




Indeed. March is the month...no word on the year yet though.   



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> As to the website, it sounds exciting... I can't wait.




The site is looking pretty good, nothing too fancy at this stage you understand (its my first site after all). I only have one solitary problem stopping me from finishing the design completely at this stage, hopefully I can get that sorted tonight/early tomorrow.


----------



## Chosen01




----------



## Chosen01

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Okay I don't want to get anyones hopes up but I think this is definately the month.



Just make sure you beat the May/June deadline for the Ennies nominations


----------



## Chosen01

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I'll get all the design finished tonight, and then I'll start adding all the content, so that when I do get to upload the site there will be enough there to keep you all interested.



Did you incorporate my ideas?


----------



## Golem2176

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Okay I don't want to get anyones hopes up but I think this is definately the month. Just don't tell anyone.




Cool!     





			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I should also have the website finished tonight. But before everyone starts celebrating just yet - I haven't bought the domain name or the webspace yet, there are a few complications in that regard, notably that I don't have either a credit card or the cash at the moment.




I'd be more than happy to help you with the startup cost. It's not much, but I have $20 tucked away, and I think the Immortals Handbook would definetly be a good investment. Just tell me where to send it.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> The site is looking pretty good, nothing too fancy at this stage you understand (its my first site after all). I only have one solitary problem stopping me from finishing the design completely at this stage, hopefully I can get that sorted tonight/early tomorrow.




I'm glad it's not fancy -- I'm a KISS (Keep it Simple ...) advocate in web design.  I hope you get your problem ironed out.


----------



## Essex

This is probably premature, given the impending release of this long-awaited supplement (i've been lurking here for years; even posted way back when Noah still ran the place).  I'm running a D20 Modern game leaning a bit more to DnD and I've hit upon a question and I'm curious to see how you'd work this, UK.

Okay I'm using beings inspired by the Goa'uld from Stargate SG-1.  On the off chance you have no idea WTF I'm taking about, think an ancient race of beings, many of whom have been worshipped as gods for the last 8,000 years or so.  In a DnD/D20 setting, wouldn't this mean these few would achieve divine status through sheer numbers of worshippers?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Chosen01 mate! 



			
				Chosen01 said:
			
		

> Just make sure you beat the May/June deadline for the Ennies nominations




I'll just be happy to finally get it out there to be honest. 



			
				Chosen01 said:
			
		

> Did you incorporate my ideas?




I took on board all the feedback. I think you'll like the site.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Golem matey! 



			
				Golem2176 said:
			
		

> I'd be more than happy to help you with the startup cost. It's not much, but I have $20 tucked away, and I think the Immortals Handbook would definetly be a good investment. Just tell me where to send it.




Don't you be bloody silly mate, you keep your money* - I couldn't honestly  ask someone I had never met before, even if I did regard them as a friend. I appreciate the offer though mate.

*for the IH. 

I'll sort this out myself, its just going to take a while longer. Don't worry, the website will be done before the end of the month though.


----------



## Upper_Krust

HI CRGreathouse mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I'm glad it's not fancy -- I'm a KISS (Keep it Simple ...) advocate in web design.




Indeed, thats my mantra.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I hope you get your problem ironed out.




Me too, I'm getting some experts to take a look at the code, hopefully that will solve the final peice of the puzzle.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi there Essex! 



			
				Essex said:
			
		

> This is probably premature, given the impending release of this long-awaited supplement (i've been lurking here for years; even posted way back when Noah still ran the place).  I'm running a D20 Modern game leaning a bit more to DnD and I've hit upon a question and I'm curious to see how you'd work this, UK.




Sure, fire away.

For what its worth I have details for running Immortals in variant campaign settings in the Chronicle pdf. So it adds things like immortals in Horror; Modern; Sci-fi; Superhero campaigns etc.

An interesting note is that the Superhero (low physical factor setting) actually parallels d20 Modern much closer than the Modern (high physical factor) rules I will proffer (which are a trifle more deadly shall we say). 



			
				Essex said:
			
		

> Okay I'm using beings inspired by the Goa'uld from Stargate SG-1.  In a DnD/D20 setting, wouldn't this mean these few would achieve divine status through sheer numbers of worshippers?




Well as I recall the Goa'uld are 'false gods'; that does not inhibit worship though. However I don't see even the most revered Goa'uld having enough worship to make them Demigods. At best most are probably Hero or Quasi deities.

Essentially it depends on the number of genuine worshippers each Goa'uld has. Its notable that most worlds SG1 ventures to are fairly sparsely populated.

However, when they ruled on earth its entirely possible they were much more powerful - akin to a full pantheon with Ra as a Greater God etc. However, divorced from the main bulk of their worshippers they are probably now much weaker in that regard.



			
				Essex said:
			
		

> On the off chance you have no idea WTF I'm taking about, think an ancient race of beings, many of whom have been worshipped as gods for the last 8,000 years or so.




Are you mocking me!? 

My home address is c/o the Cheyenne Mountain Complex.


----------



## Essex

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hi there Essex!




Heya, chief.



> Well as I recall the Goa'uld are 'false gods'; that does not inhibit worship though. However I don't see even the most revered Goa'uld having enough worship to make them Demigods. At best most are probably Hero or Quasi deities.




Our thoughts are one.  *shakes head*  Sorry shouldn't be watching ST:V - Dark Frontier as I type this.  I see most of the rank and file Goa'uld as just carriers for the genetic memory, nothing special.  The average system lord (Apophis, Heru-Ur, Cronos) as being Quasi-Deity.  Ra, Sokar, and Anubis I see as being actually Demi-gods.  

1) Ra - he is the head of them, and I had the impression, that before he died, EVERYONE paid him tribute and lip service (except for those like Apophis, who were rebelling against his rule).  Also given, that he was the one who started the whole mess, I see him being spiffier.

2) Sokar - *shudder* I actually see him as being a Tainted, Possessed, or Half-Fiend variant of the standard.  His eyes glowed RED for crying out loud.  He also seemed to have a incredibly large and separate power base for the rest.

3) Anubis - similar story to Sokar (even played by the same actor, how's that for funny?)  He also has the advantage of that he Ascended, which I'm treating as Divine Elevation.  Being kicked back down, but still obviously more than what he was, I can't see him as anything other than a Demigod.



> Essentially it depends on the number of genuine worshippers each Goa'uld has. Its notable that most worlds SG1 ventures to are fairly sparsely populated.




I'm going for they are devotely worshipped by the few thousand Jaffa they have in their service.  Then you have the worlds, which sparsely populated, do worship them out of fear (which is good enough for evil deities in D&D worlds).



> However, when they ruled on earth its entirely possible they were much more powerful - akin to a full pantheon with Ra as a Greater God etc. However, divorced from the main bulk of their worshippers they are probably now much weaker in that regard.




Actually I'm changing their origin to fit in with a more D&D style cosmology (the gods do ACTUALLY exist).  This is gonna be a bit long and probably pointless, so bear with me.  Millions of years ago a civilization existed on Earth and rose to great heights in technology AND magic (Ancients anyone?).  Well a cosmic crisis spread to our world as the dark Power that some on other plains call Tharizdun began annihiliting the universe and demons and corrupt things spread in his wake.  

When the big T reached this plain, the Overpower intervened and helped the other gods imprison him, but doing so cost the Overpower its existence.  In its death throes, it did two things:  It expelled all non-native creatures from Earth, and then sealed this universe from further intrusion.  This dropped the Mana Level down to a fraction of itself and prevented the gods from intervening directly anymore.  It also bathed the world in Its power and a handful of beings became imbued with its energy and became Immortals (anyone see Highlander?)  They are driven to fight and kill each other until only one remains (and in turn has absorbed all the divine essence, which will result in a rebirth of the Overpower).  Because of the beings Lawful and Divine origin, it subconsciously forces a kind of "rules" on the Immortals preventing massive cheating and even dueling on Holy Ground.

Now onto the point of this little dissertation.  The Egyptian pantheon wanted to have access to its worshippers again so when they found a crack in the Wall between Worlds, Ra sent a fraction of his essence through to possess a young boy to be his intermediary.  Unfortunately something went wrong.  Or maybe the boy's innately human nature was corrupted by the sudden power and in turn affected the Avatar.  No one knows for certain, but Ra became a tyrant.  

During his thousand year reign, he uncovered the Stargate system and went and explored other worlds, finding more Ancient technology and artifacts.  He eventually learned the art of genetic engineering, and decided he had a foolproof way to ensure his own survival, even beyond the sarcophagus and new hosts.  He created a parasite that contained all his memories and knowledge and designed a Queen-like creature to create them.  She took an Egyptian woman and became the "goddess" Hathor.  Later, as she learned the myths of "who she was", she created other parasites, not with Ra's identity, but with the other gods of the pantheon, to vex her husband, as well as lesser, servitor Goa'uld who had no identity as gods, so they would be more... pliable.  

Ra had her imprisoned for this as he was being challenged now by humans possesed by parasites believing themselves to be Apophis and Anubis and others.  Eventually the humans of Earth rose up and drove their oppressors off and these "false gods" retreated through the Stargate.  They spread off to other worlds to avoid each other, and over the ages, they rebuilt much of the technology they had uncovered from past civilations and started to build their own private empires amongst the stars, when they eventually started to encounter each other again, and the System Lords were eventually formed, with Ra once again at its head.

*gaspwheezegasp*  Okay why the heck did I just write all that out? 



> Are you mocking me!?
> 
> My home address is c/o the Cheyenne Mountain Complex.




Dude, you've so got to get me on an SG team.  I'll do anything, just get me off this divisive, short-sighted mudball....


----------



## Upper_Krust

Essex said:
			
		

> Heya, chief.




Hi Essex matey! 



			
				Essex said:
			
		

> Our thoughts are one.  *shakes head*  Sorry shouldn't be watching ST:V - Dark Frontier as I type this.




Wasn't that called the Final Frontier... 



			
				Essex said:
			
		

> I see most of the rank and file Goa'uld as just carriers for the genetic memory, nothing special.




How many Goa'uld are there I wonder? There doesn't seem to be too many of them. I wonder does the SG1 d20 go into any details on the matter?



			
				Essex said:
			
		

> The average system lord (Apophis, Heru-Ur, Cronos) as being Quasi-Deity.  Ra, Sokar, and Anubis I see as being actually Demi-gods.




I certainly wouldn't have any of them above demi-deities thats for sure.  



			
				Essex said:
			
		

> 1) Ra - he is the head of them, and I had the impression, that before he died, EVERYONE paid him tribute and lip service (except for those like Apophis, who were rebelling against his rule).  Also given, that he was the one who started the whole mess, I see him being spiffier.




Well you would anticipate he was at least paid lip service from all the 'Egyptian-centric' goa'uld before he was destroyed.



			
				Essex said:
			
		

> 2) Sokar - *shudder* I actually see him as being a Tainted, Possessed, or Half-Fiend variant of the standard.  His eyes glowed RED for crying out loud.  He also seemed to have a incredibly large and separate power base for the rest.








			
				Essex said:
			
		

> 3) Anubis - similar story to Sokar (even played by the same actor, how's that for funny?)  He also has the advantage of that he Ascended, which I'm treating as Divine Elevation.  Being kicked back down, but still obviously more than what he was, I can't see him as anything other than a Demigod.




Well Anubis is part 'Ancient'. Hopefully we will get more details in the Stargate Atlantis series (or Stargate SG1 Series 8).

I have only seen up to episode 6:20 (6:21 on tv tomorrow) because I am watching it on terrestrial television rather than cable/satellite (even though we have cable I didn't want to watch the shows out of sequence).



			
				Essex said:
			
		

> I'm going for they are devotely worshipped by the few thousand Jaffa they have in their service.  Then you have the worlds, which sparsely populated, do worship them out of fear (which is good enough for evil deities in D&D worlds).




That will be so easy to handle with the IH. You can have the Jaffa as Devoted Worshippers and humans as Typical Worshippers - and then determine worship points from that - peice of cake.

Then you could have the heroes try to target the worshipper base to disaffect Jaffa and the like to destabilize the Lords power.



			
				Essex said:
			
		

> Actually I'm changing their origin to fit in with a more D&D style cosmology (the gods do ACTUALLY exist).  This is gonna be a bit long and probably pointless, so bear with me.




Hey, fire away. I always enjoy a good read and something you post may inspire someone elses campaign.



			
				Essex said:
			
		

> Millions of years ago a civilization existed on Earth and rose to great heights in technology AND magic (Ancients anyone?).  Well a cosmic crisis spread to our world as the dark Power that some on other plains call Tharizdun began annihiliting the universe and demons and corrupt things spread in his wake.




Tharizdun you say, we used him (physcally) in our campaign. He was unleashed and we had to attack him with a fleet of Star Destroyers.  



			
				Essex said:
			
		

> When the big T reached this plain, the Overpower intervened and helped the other gods imprison him, but doing so cost the Overpower its existence.




I always saw his imprisonment as requiring the sacrifice of a parallel 'good' aligned entity.



			
				Essex said:
			
		

> In its death throes, it did two things:  It expelled all non-native creatures from Earth, and then sealed this universe from further intrusion.  This dropped the Mana Level down to a fraction of itself and prevented the gods from intervening directly anymore.  It also bathed the world in Its power and a handful of beings became imbued with its energy and became Immortals (anyone see Highlander?)  They are driven to fight and kill each other until only one remains (and in turn has absorbed all the divine essence, which will result in a rebirth of the Overpower).  Because of the beings Lawful and Divine origin, it subconsciously forces a kind of "rules" on the Immortals preventing massive cheating and even dueling on Holy Ground.




In the IH you take their Quintessence rather than their 'Quickening'. 



			
				Essex said:
			
		

> Now onto the point of this little dissertation.  The Egyptian pantheon wanted to have access to its worshippers again so when they found a crack in the Wall between Worlds, Ra sent a fraction of his essence through to possess a young boy to be his intermediary.  Unfortunately something went wrong.  Or maybe the boy's innately human nature was corrupted by the sudden power and in turn affected the Avatar.  No one knows for certain, but Ra became a tyrant.
> 
> During his thousand year reign, he uncovered the Stargate system and went and explored other worlds, finding more Ancient technology and artifacts.  He eventually learned the art of genetic engineering, and decided he had a foolproof way to ensure his own survival, even beyond the sarcophagus and new hosts.  He created a parasite that contained all his memories and knowledge and designed a Queen-like creature to create them.  She took an Egyptian woman and became the "goddess" Hathor.  Later, as she learned the myths of "who she was", she created other parasites, not with Ra's identity, but with the other gods of the pantheon, to vex her husband, as well as lesser, servitor Goa'uld who had no identity as gods, so they would be more... pliable.
> 
> Ra had her imprisoned for this as he was being challenged now by humans possesed by parasites believing themselves to be Apophis and Anubis and others.  Eventually the humans of Earth rose up and drove their oppressors off and these "false gods" retreated through the Stargate.  They spread off to other worlds to avoid each other, and over the ages, they rebuilt much of the technology they had uncovered from past civilations and started to build their own private empires amongst the stars, when they eventually started to encounter each other again, and the System Lords were eventually formed, with Ra once again at its head.
> 
> *gaspwheezegasp*  Okay why the heck did I just write all that out?




Very interesting - Stargate is of course the perfect setting for all sorts of IH inspired shenanigans.



			
				Essex said:
			
		

> Dude, you've so got to get me on an SG team.  I'll do anything, just get me off this divisive, short-sighted mudball....




I dunno - do you have any specialist skills that could be brought to bear?

We might have a place for you on SG-133.


----------



## Essex

> Wasn't that called the Final Frontier...




You'd be right if I meant Star Trek Five.  I meant Star Trek Voyager.   My bad...  I should have been clearer on my acronyms.



> How many Goa'uld are there I wonder? There doesn't seem to be too many of them. I wonder does the SG1 d20 go into any details on the matter?




Depends on which source you use.  According to the movie, Ra was the only one, and he looked like a white, glowing Grey with teeth.  The TV series butchered the original movie, and in some ways made it better, but the Continuity Side of me wishes they had left some of the movie mythos intact.



> I certainly wouldn't have any of them above demi-deities thats for sure.




Oh I agree 100%.  I was just stating the three I thought WOULD hve DemiGod status.  I want them killable by decent-level PCs with boatloads of modern technology, which is possible, given their physical host requirements and the fact that the Low Mana Zone of this universe greatly limits their divine abilities.



> Well you would anticipate he was at least paid lip service from all the 'Egyptian-centric' goa'uld before he was destroyed.




Exactly.  He started off as a powerful Avatar, and with the added worship, first on Earth, and later by all the other slave races, Jaffa, and loyal Goa'uld, he managed to acquire and maintain Demigod status.



> Well Anubis is part 'Ancient'. Hopefully we will get more details in the Stargate Atlantis series (or Stargate SG1 Series 8).




Actually, Ascended Daniel's story was that somehow Anubis' host Ascended with the symbiote inside.  The others stopped this in mid process and cast him back down, and now he's stuck in between states.  honestly there is little differents between the Ancients and the Ascended other than the Ancients did it first, and have more spiffy knowledge.



> I have only seen up to episode 6:20 (6:21 on tv tomorrow) because I am watching it on terrestrial television rather than cable/satellite (even though we have cable I didn't want to watch the shows out of sequence).




*nods* Don't blame you.  I missed Season 6, but after watching Seasons 1 - 5 on the SciFi chan Monday night rerun block, I decided to hop in on the Season 6 finale and have been watching steady since.  Add in that I hit a spoiler website to fill in my gaps, and I'm a Gater or whatever they call us SG obsessed geeks. 



> That will be so easy to handle with the IH. You can have the Jaffa as Devoted Worshippers and humans as Typical Worshippers - and then determine worship points from that - peice of cake.




COOL!  I've been waiting for your book for 3-4 years now, ever since you started posting on Eric Noah's boards.  I'm all a-tingle with anticipation.
Then you could have the heroes try to target the worshipper base to disaffect Jaffa and the like to destabilize the Lords power.



> In the IH you take their Quintessence rather than their 'Quickening'.




Yup, don't wanna violate those copyrights...



> Very interesting - Stargate is of course the perfect setting for all sorts of IH inspired shenanigans.




I'm doing such an odd origin for the Goa'uld in this universe because i wanted to merge the Stargate setting into a Modern Fantasy game.  My only trouble now is that I have no idea what to do about the Asgard.  If used as presented, the invalidate the entire Norse pantheon since according to them, the legends were all based off their people as a cover story to primitive cultures.



> I dunno - do you have any specialist skills that could be brought to bear?
> 
> We might have a place for you on SG-133.




Hmmm I've got O'neill's wit and irreverence, Daniel's obsession with history, and a knack for insane schemes that make Captain Kirk look like a cautious individual...


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Essex mate! 



			
				Essex said:
			
		

> You'd be right if I meant Star Trek Five.  I meant Star Trek Voyager.   My bad...  I should have been clearer on my acronyms.




Indeed, shame on you. 



			
				Essex said:
			
		

> Depends on which source you use.  According to the movie, Ra was the only one, and he looked like a white, glowing Grey with teeth.  The TV series butchered the original movie, and in some ways made it better, but the Continuity Side of me wishes they had left some of the movie mythos intact.




Well I think having multiple Goa'uld was a good decision.



			
				Essex said:
			
		

> Oh I agree 100%.  I was just stating the three I thought WOULD hve DemiGod status.  I want them killable by decent-level PCs with boatloads of modern technology, which is possible, given their physical host requirements and the fact that the Low Mana Zone of this universe greatly limits their divine abilities.




Perhaps this Low Mana Zone (Low Magic Factor) could be linked to a High Reality Factor, which means that modern weaponry deals more damage than as prescribed by d20 Modern.



			
				Essex said:
			
		

> Exactly.  He started off as a powerful Avatar, and with the added worship, first on Earth, and later by all the other slave races, Jaffa, and loyal Goa'uld, he managed to acquire and maintain Demigod status.




Thats plausible.



			
				Essex said:
			
		

> Actually, Ascended Daniel's story was that somehow Anubis' host Ascended with the symbiote inside.  The others stopped this in mid process and cast him back down, and now he's stuck in between states.  honestly there is little differents between the Ancients and the Ascended other than the Ancients did it first, and have more spiffy knowledge.








			
				Essex said:
			
		

> *nods* Don't blame you.  I missed Season 6, but after watching Seasons 1 - 5 on the SciFi chan Monday night rerun block, I decided to hop in on the Season 6 finale and have been watching steady since.  Add in that I hit a spoiler website to fill in my gaps, and I'm a Gater or whatever they call us SG obsessed geeks.




Gater actually sounds pretty cool - too cool for geeks anyway. 



			
				Essex said:
			
		

> COOL!  I've been waiting for your book for 3-4 years now, ever since you started posting on Eric Noah's boards.




Okay, okay, don't remind me how long its been. 



			
				Essex said:
			
		

> I'm all a-tingle with anticipation.








			
				Essex said:
			
		

> Yup, don't wanna violate those copyrights...




Indeed. Though quintessence actually makes more sense than quickening.



			
				Essex said:
			
		

> I'm doing such an odd origin for the Goa'uld in this universe because i wanted to merge the Stargate setting into a Modern Fantasy game.  My only trouble now is that I have no idea what to do about the Asgard.  If used as presented, the invalidate the entire Norse pantheon since according to them, the legends were all based off their people as a cover story to primitive cultures.




Well you could still use the Norse Pantheon, but just have them walk about in 'hard light' hologram suits or somesuch.



			
				Essex said:
			
		

> Hmmm I've got O'neill's wit and irreverence, Daniel's obsession with history, and a knack for insane schemes that make Captain Kirk look like a cautious individual...




It sounds to me like you are no Taree at all!


----------



## Revenge of the Bjorn

Hmmm, things seem to be slowing up, so its time for me to think of a question to annoy the Krust. 

In music I always find it interesting to see what bands are influenced but what previous bands, and therefore I'd be interested in knowing, the Krust, anywhere you took influence on from in your work on the IH?  Certain philosphies or schools of belief?  Particularly any of the eastern traditions?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Bjorn mate! 



			
				Revenge of the Bjorn said:
			
		

> Hmmm, things seem to be slowing up, so its time for me to think of a question to annoy the Krust.
> 
> In music I always find it interesting to see what bands are influenced but what previous bands, and therefore I'd be interested in knowing, the Krust, anywhere you took influence on from in your work on the IH?  Certain philosphies or schools of belief?  Particularly any of the eastern traditions?




Well the simple answer is 'the occult' in general. Which pretty much encompasses any mechanics of mythology, magic and so forth.

So thats been my main inspiration in determining the philosophy of the book.


----------



## S'mon

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hi Bjorn mate!
> Well the simple answer is 'the occult' in general. Which pretty much encompasses any mechanics of mythology, magic and so forth.
> 
> So thats been my main inspiration in determining the philosophy of the book.




Hi Craig/UK - I remember you asked me what were my inspirations when I created the original Worship Points System (hmm, I feel like Dave arneson to UK's Gary Gygax!)   - my answer was that I wanted a measurement of deity power that tied in with the 1e AD&D XP & GP system, ie 1 Worship Point (divinity) was intended to be equivalent to 1 XP (experience) or 1gp (wealth), and they were interchangeable inasmuch as you could spend WPs to do the same kind of stuff you can do with gps, like make magic items, or XPs, like make items, cast certain powerful spells & rituals, etc.

The Worship Points System as conceived by me uses the 'Ascending' or 'Democratic' theory of power, where power derives fundamentally from the lowest element, the belief of the ordinary, mundane human being.  This belief-energy powers the multiverse, creates and empowers the gods, etc.  It draws from democratic-influenced mythologies such as that of the Greeks, where the gods clearly draw power from their worshippers - power that enables them to become mightier than Elder entities such as the Titans.

The opposing theory of power (whether magical or political) is the 'Descending' or 'Hierarchic' theory, where power flows downwards from powerful beings with an a-priori divine existence to their lesser minions.  This theory fits with most Judaeo-Christian doctrine and is exemplified in the works of JRR Tolkien - Iluvatar is the pre-existing divinity from which all power flows, He empowers lower levels down the chain.  So Melkor initially receives the largest lump of divine power, but spends so much of it on empowering his minions that he eventually becomes weaker than the Valar who have hoarded theirs more carefully.  The OD&D Immortals system also seems closer to the Hierarchic approach.

The WPS as it stands could be adapted to a Hierarchic universe like Middle Earth, in which case PC deities would receive WPs from their patron deities as a reward for good performance, possibly receiving promotions from on-high to ascend the slippery slope of the divine hierarchy.  I think the Democratic WPS system is more suitable for most campaigns, it enables PCs to potentially achieve divinity on their own terms without need for a divine patron (though such is always useful!) and means their power is not limited to whatever their superiors are willing to grant them.


----------



## ZosKia

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Well the simple answer is 'the occult' in general. Which pretty much encompasses any mechanics of mythology, magic and so forth.
> 
> So thats been my main inspiration in determining the philosophy of the book.




Hi Craig,
Any particular Occult philosophies or authors?


----------



## Upper_Krust

S'mon said:
			
		

> Hi Craig/UK




Hey S'mon! 



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> - I remember you asked me what were my inspirations when I created the original Worship Points System (hmm, I feel like Dave arneson to UK's Gary Gygax!)








			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> - my answer was that I wanted a measurement of deity power that tied in with the 1e AD&D XP & GP system, ie 1 Worship Point (divinity) was intended to be equivalent to 1 XP (experience) or 1gp (wealth), and they were interchangeable inasmuch as you could spend WPs to do the same kind of stuff you can do with gps, like make magic items, or XPs, like make items, cast certain powerful spells & rituals, etc.




Indeed. This still applies to the IH at a basic level.



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> The Worship Points System as conceived by me uses the 'Ascending' or 'Democratic' theory of power, where power derives fundamentally from the lowest element, the belief of the ordinary, mundane human being.  This belief-energy powers the multiverse, creates and empowers the gods, etc.  It draws from democratic-influenced mythologies such as that of the Greeks, where the gods clearly draw power from their worshippers - power that enables them to become mightier than Elder entities such as the Titans.
> 
> The opposing theory of power (whether magical or political) is the 'Descending' or 'Hierarchic' theory, where power flows downwards from powerful beings with an a-priori divine existence to their lesser minions.  This theory fits with most Judaeo-Christian doctrine and is exemplified in the works of JRR Tolkien - Iluvatar is the pre-existing divinity from which all power flows, He empowers lower levels down the chain.  So Melkor initially receives the largest lump of divine power, but spends so much of it on empowering his minions that he eventually becomes weaker than the Valar who have hoarded theirs more carefully.  The OD&D Immortals system also seems closer to the Hierarchic approach.
> 
> The WPS as it stands could be adapted to a Hierarchic universe like Middle Earth, in which case PC deities would receive WPs from their patron deities as a reward for good performance, possibly receiving promotions from on-high to ascend the slippery slope of the divine hierarchy.  I think the Democratic WPS system is more suitable for most campaigns, it enables PCs to potentially achieve divinity on their own terms without need for a divine patron (though such is always useful!) and means their power is not limited to whatever their superiors are willing to grant them.




Fortunately I have all bases covered within the IH, including 'quickening' style 'Hierarchic' transferences. So the Hierarchic (Power) approach meshes seemlessly with the Democratic (Glory) approach. Of course those are not the only approaches you can take.


----------



## Upper_Krust

ZosKia said:
			
		

> Hi Craig,




Hey Andrew! 



			
				ZosKia said:
			
		

> Any particular Occult philosophies or authors?




Probably all of them at one stage or another. 

Personally though I get more out of condensed; focused bodies of work, than vague philosophical diatribes that can go off on a tangent.

So things like encyclopedias or overarching studies of the subject as a whole are more to my tastes.

The two best I have found are:

Fred Gettings: Encyclopedia of the Occult

and 

Louis Stewart: Life Forces (a Contemporary Guide to the Cult and Occult).

Anyone interested in the subject should pick both these up if they get the chance.


----------



## Revenge of the Bjorn

S'mon said:
			
		

> The Worship Points System as conceived by me uses the 'Ascending' or 'Democratic' theory of power, where power derives fundamentally from the lowest element, the belief of the ordinary, mundane human being.  This belief-energy powers the multiverse, creates and empowers the gods, etc.  It draws from democratic-influenced mythologies such as that of the Greeks, where the gods clearly draw power from their worshippers - power that enables them to become mightier than Elder entities such as the Titans.
> 
> The opposing theory of power (whether magical or political) is the 'Descending' or 'Hierarchic' theory, where power flows downwards from powerful beings with an a-priori divine existence to their lesser minions.  This theory fits with most Judaeo-Christian doctrine and is exemplified in the works of JRR Tolkien - Iluvatar is the pre-existing divinity from which all power flows, He empowers lower levels down the chain.  So Melkor initially receives the largest lump of divine power, but spends so much of it on empowering his minions that he eventually becomes weaker than the Valar who have hoarded theirs more carefully.  The OD&D Immortals system also seems closer to the Hierarchic approach.




This explains why rhe idea of power from worship never appealed to me, I subscribe to the second view, with all divinity coming from a single source (cough*The Source*cough*ripping off Kirby[and Taoism and other stuff]*cough) Although with my opinion that there is a semi-non-living source, how would power be distributed...hrrm.  

Although today I had a funny idea today of God running for reelection (with an actual physical ballot being taken), and various, deities, demons, angels, and/or people running against the Divine.  You can just imagine the campaign speeches. Yeah, I have way too much free time.  But I certainly think it could make an interesting campaign.


----------



## Zoatebix

By "Kirby" do you mean universal life-church Kirby?   

I had a friend who signed up just so he could get regular emails from a guy named Kirby.  He really liked the name.

UK seems to imply that you can use the IH to model _any_ kind of cosmological/ metaphysical/ whateveryouwanttocallit system, OR mix and match said systems, AND have them be ballanced against each other, right?

If I wasn't rabbidly interested before, I certainly am now.
-z


----------



## Revenge of the Bjorn

Sorry, I meant Kirby as in Jack, of comic-book-working-on fame.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Bjorn mate! 



			
				Revenge of the Bjorn said:
			
		

> This explains why rhe idea of power from worship never appealed to me, I subscribe to the second view, with all divinity coming from a single source (*cough* The Source *cough* ripping off Kirby [and Taoism and other stuff] *cough*)




Well if you are going to rip off an idea may as well be from the King.



			
				Revenge of the Bjorn said:
			
		

> Although with my opinion that there is a semi-non-living source, how would power be distributed...hrrm.




Well initially you could spread it out evenly (those first caught by the god wave perhaps). Subsequently you could redistribute it in a manner similar to Highlander.



			
				Revenge of the Bjorn said:
			
		

> Although today I had a funny idea of God running for reelection (with an actual physical ballot being taken), and various, deities, demons, angels, and/or people running against the Divine.  You can just imagine the campaign speeches. Yeah, I have way too much free time.  But I certainly think it could make an interesting campaign.




Technically this is how you gain glory/worship anyhow. Wait 'til you see the mechanic I have for sorting that out...sweet as a nut.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi there Zoatebix! 



			
				Zoatebix said:
			
		

> UK seems to imply that you can use the IH to model _any_ kind of cosmological/ metaphysical/ whateveryouwanttocallit system, OR mix and match said systems, AND have them be ballanced against each other, right?




I'll not just imply it, I'll flat out state it as a fact. 



			
				Zoatebix said:
			
		

> If I wasn't rabbidly interested before, I certainly am now.




Much appreciated mate.


----------



## historian

> Fortunately I have all bases covered within the IH, including 'quickening' style 'Hierarchic' transferences. So the Hierarchic (Power) approach meshes seemlessly with the Democratic (Glory) approach.




I tend to favor the hierarchic approach myself (like Bjorn) for the really big guys, but I think the democratic approach works well for those immortals closer to (wo)mankind (greater deities and lower).  Actually, the democratic approach would seem to work well as almost a _laissez faire _ mechanic that the closer-to-the-primal-source deities employ to keep from having to "personally" oversee the affairs of their lessers.

I anticipate using both, to the extent compatible.



> Of course those are not the only approaches you can take.




Interesting, very interesting.

I'm glad to hear that your progress is going well Krust!


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi historian mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I tend to favor the hierarchic approach myself (like Bjorn) for the really big guys, but I think the democratic approach works well for those immortals closer to (wo)mankind (greater deities and lower).  Actually, the democratic approach would seem to work well as almost a _laissez faire _ mechanic that the closer-to-the-primal-source deities employ to keep from having to "personally" oversee the affairs of their lessers.
> 
> I anticipate using both, to the extent compatible.




I think people should use both. I think its the best solution to the question of mortal born deities vs. immortal born deities (encompassing things like Demons and Angels)



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Interesting, very interesting.




Well, there are a few other less obvious ways of doing it that might interest people; though I would see the two above methods as 'standard'.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I'm glad to hear that your progress is going well Krust!




Thanks mate, we're nearly home.


----------



## Revenge of the Bjorn

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Well, there are a few other less obvious ways of doing it that might interest people; though I would see the two above methods as 'standard'.




Will these be included?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Bjorn mate! 



			
				Revenge of the Bjorn said:
			
		

> Will these be included?




I am not sure I see people using them as their default method, but they could prove interesting diversions, so yes, they will be included.


----------



## historian

Hello Krust!

I was wondering if you have settled on a maximum challenge rating for your immortal scale at this point.

Thanks in advance.


----------



## Upper_Krust

historian said:
			
		

> Hello Krust!




Hi historian mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I was wondering if you have settled on a maximum challenge rating for your immortal scale at this point.
> 
> Thanks in advance.




Yes and no. At a certain point there is a set individual maximum, but you can transcend this...however I don't really want to say how at the moment...you'll see.


----------



## Dark Wolf 97

Hey U_K!

Just dropping in to say hi, also to say I'm glad you've gotten over to DiceFreaks lately.



> _*Originally posted by Upper Krust.*
> you'll see._




All the 'very soon' and 'you'll see' is starting to sound like a bad horror flick   .


----------



## Golem2176

Hi Upper Krust!

I just wanted to know: are you still waiting for the Deities and Demigos stuff to show up in the srd before your book sees use in either pdf or print? I have not heard anything in a while about the Deities and Demigods stuff being integrated to the SRD.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Dark Wolf 97 said:
			
		

> Hey U_K!




Hiya mate! 



			
				Dark Wolf 97 said:
			
		

> Just dropping in to say hi, also to say I'm glad you've gotten over to DiceFreaks lately.




It was primarily a message board problem that had kept me away for a few months, but thankfully thats all sorted now.



			
				Dark Wolf 97 said:
			
		

> All the 'very soon' and 'you'll see' is starting to sound like a bad horror flick


----------



## Upper_Krust

Golem2176 said:
			
		

> Hi Upper Krust!




Hey Golem matey! 



			
				Golem2176 said:
			
		

> I just wanted to know: are you still waiting for the Deities and Demigos stuff to show up in the srd before your book sees use in either pdf or print?




No. Though that did make me rework my Divine Abilities so that I would't need D&Dg. I think there are about a dozen (out of my 128 Divine Abilities) that are fairly similar to the SDAs in that book.



			
				Golem2176 said:
			
		

> I have not heard anything in a while about the Deities and Demigods stuff being integrated to the SRD.




At this point its irrelevant to me.


----------



## Revenge of the Bjorn

I dunno the system through and through but couldn't it be a bit shaky to have some things really similar to something else (and really not have a good case for it being a coincidence)?


----------



## Brother Shatterstone

Upper Krust,

I may have asked this before but I have a simple mind at times and honesty I don’t recall asking so I will now. 

Will there be rules in your book for covering mortals that have been blessed with some of their patron deity’s divine essence?  Much like the chosen of the forgotten realms.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Bjorn mate! 



			
				Revenge of the Bjorn said:
			
		

> I dunno the system through and through but couldn't it be a bit shaky to have some things really similar to something else (and really not have a good case for it being a coincidence)?




So if WotC create a feat that adds a modifier to attack bonus then no one else can create a similar feat? Of course not.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Upper Krust,




Hiya mate! 



			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> I may have asked this before but I have a simple mind at times and honesty I don’t recall asking so I will now.




Thats okay - fire away! 



			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Will there be rules in your book for covering mortals that have been blessed with some of their patron deity’s divine essence?  Much like the chosen of the forgotten realms.




Yes in fact this is integral to the work, since the Disciple and Prophet are the first two Divinity Templates (and like all the others easily customisable as you'll see* when you get the book).

*theres that 'you'll see' again dark Wolf matey! 

Think of Disciples as another name for 'Chosen of'. Whereas Prophet is more akin to a 'Champion of' - representing the greatest mortal servant of the deity on a given world.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> and like all the others easily customisable as you'll see* when you get the book.



And when will the book be ready for me to "you'll see"? 



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Think of Disciples as another name for 'Chosen of'. Whereas Prophet is more akin to a 'Champion of' - representing the greatest mortal servant of the deity on a given world.



Sweet!  How does the book handle the prophet and the champion of rather unique deities that are not real fighters?  Like Sune, Venus, Aphrodite, etc. all three encompass Love and Beauty above all else.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Brother Shatterstone mate! 



			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> And when will the book be ready for me to "you'll see"?




Well thats the six million dollar question isn't it. 



			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Sweet!  How does the book handle the prophet and the champion of rather unique deities that are not real fighters?  Like Sune, Venus, Aphrodite, etc. all three encompass Love and Beauty above all else.




Well its actually fairly simple. There are set features and selectable features to each Divinity Template. These also interchange with the features of the Portfolio templates so instead of having to choose from the massive list of Abilities you can instead look up the appropriate Portfolio and choose some of the features of those instead.


----------



## Dark Wolf 97

Hey Upper Krust!

You've mention before rules on divine intervention, what about the spell _Miracle_? I hope you've expanded or addedto the spell, not to make it more powerful, but perhaps more diverse.

Also, how goes the book?   

Later


----------



## Nifelhein

Ihave recently discovered this book due to the excelent pdf on challenge ratings and encounter levels, by far the best considerations and complete system on it that I have seen, congratulations. My only concern is that at some points it is a little dubious, more explanations would make it more useful for those who are not native speakers, although I could find my way through it with easy.

Anyway, I am really puzzled by this work of yours and am looking forward to know more, until it hooks my questions I will be reading this thread, UP.

Cheers,

Nif.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Dark Wolf 97 said:
			
		

> Hey Upper Krust!




Hi Dark Wolf mate! 



			
				Dark Wolf 97 said:
			
		

> You've mention before rules on divine intervention,




Yep.



			
				Dark Wolf 97 said:
			
		

> what about the spell _Miracle_? I hope you've expanded or added to the spell, not to make it more powerful, but perhaps more diverse.




I have sort of addressed Miracle and Wish spells...though maybe not in the way you are hoping. Apologies if thats a bit cryptic.   



			
				Dark Wolf 97 said:
			
		

> Also, how goes the book?




Not bad, although I lost a few days last week with 'real life' stuff - but c'est la vie.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi there Nifelhein! 



			
				Nifelhein said:
			
		

> I have recently discovered this book due to the excelent pdf on challenge ratings and encounter levels, by far the best considerations and complete system on it that I have seen, congratulations.




Well thanks! I appreciate the kind words. Glad you found the CR/EL system useful.



			
				Nifelhein said:
			
		

> My only concern is that at some points it is a little dubious, more explanations would make it more useful for those who are not native speakers, although I could find my way through it with easy.




Well I tried to have as many examples as I thought practical. I suppose I could have made more effort to cater to non native English speakers but you'll have to forgive my ignorance on the matter since I wasn't aware it was a problem until now (you are the first to mention it)...of course if someone wants to develop a version in an alternate language by all means fire away with my blessing. 

I think the system becomes a lot clearer when you use it a few times.



			
				Nifelhein said:
			
		

> Anyway, I am really puzzled by this work of yours and am looking forward to know more, until it hooks my questions I will be reading this thread, UP.




Well if you have any questions about the CR/EL system or the Immortals Handbook feel free to ask mate, and don't worry if they have been asked before...I generally forget if they have myself.


----------



## Nifelhein

Thanks, UK, in fact when you actually use the system it goes great, what was unclear for me when I first read it is that a geenral step by step comment and guideline in advance would have made it easier to get in the first try, the system is simple but you only get it all when you finish reading and read again the start, just the impression I got. 

I don't know anything other than the last 5 posts and the starting ones you made here about the Immortal's, so I guess I am still completely in dark even to ask simple questions... although making epic and divine into a coherent whole is something that has already won me...

I will keep looking here and waiting for news from your good work!


----------



## Leopold

Is this thing done yet?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Nifelhein mate! 



			
				Nifelhein said:
			
		

> Thanks, UK, in fact when you actually use the system it goes great, what was unclear for me when I first read it is that a general step by step comment and guideline in advance would have made it easier to get in the first try, the system is simple but you only get it all when you finish reading and read again the start, just the impression I got.




Well some things are simple in application but a devil to explain. 



			
				Nifelhein said:
			
		

> I don't know anything other than the last 5 posts and the starting ones you made here about the Immortal's, so I guess I am still completely in dark even to ask simple questions... although making epic and divine into a coherent whole is something that has already won me...




Well I appreciate the interest! 



			
				Nifelhein said:
			
		

> I will keep looking here and waiting for news from your good work!




Okay, won't be long now befoer the release of the pdf and the uploading of my website.

For the record the website is done (but for uploading), I am just in the process of adding new content so as to make it worthwhile.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Leopold mate! 



			
				Leopold said:
			
		

> Is this thing done yet?




Virtually.

Next time I say I want to design; write; illustrate and layout a 350+ page book on my own and design the website myself will someone please punch me in the head.


----------



## Fieari

You mean to make you work faster?  *Bonk*  Faster!  *bonk*  Faster!   

Just wanted to say that I've been making EXTENSIVE use of your CR pdf.  I don't think I'd've been able to run my D&D wargame without it, since I wanted my players to construct their own armies, and I wanted it to be fair.  Only issue is that sometimes a few of the more unusual supernatural abilties are hard to judge CR modifiers for... and finding out whether or not I need to modify the CR for ability adjustments can also be tricky.

I have one question about the handbook itself though... would it be possible for someone to try and siphon worship from a greater deity by assuming that deities name, and tricking people into thinking he's the greater deity?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey there Fieari! 



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> You mean to make you work faster?  *Bonk*  Faster!  *bonk*  Faster!




Oi! Only one! 



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> Just wanted to say that I've been making EXTENSIVE use of your CR pdf.




Glad you found it useful.



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> I don't think I'd've been able to run my D&D wargame without it, since I wanted my players to construct their own armies, and I wanted it to be fair.




High praise indeed. 

It really comes into its own at high levels and beyond I think.



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> Only issue is that sometimes a few of the more unusual supernatural abilties are hard to judge CR modifiers for... and finding out whether or not I need to modify the CR for ability adjustments can also be tricky.




I'll have things clarified slightly better in the final version within the Immortals Handbook.

Most people here are still using v4 which is not bad, but the latest version is obviously better.



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> I have one question about the handbook itself though... would it be possible for someone to try and siphon worship from a greater deity by assuming that deities name, and tricking people into thinking he's the greater deity?




No, not directly anyway.

Though you can do the opposite and cause a deity to lose worship by posing as them...of course if the deity were to catch wind of your machinations... 

One way it can work is to pose as an aspect of the deity and try to divert worshippers from one path to another - so I suppose it can work indirectly.


----------



## Nifelhein

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hi Nifelhein mate!
> 
> 
> 
> Well some things are simple in application but a devil to explain.
> 
> 
> 
> Well I appreciate the interest!
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, won't be long now befoer the release of the pdf and the uploading of my website.
> 
> For the record the website is done (but for uploading), I am just in the process of adding new content so as to make it worthwhile.



 Hi UK!!

I can undeerstand fairly well what you mean with that... what i think would improve the system would be a general motivation, which you already have, and then a step by step explanation, this would give everyone a general knowledge of how it works, when I read it for the first time I just got to get the EL and Party rewarding system when i got there, if there was a comment on how the system addressed everything and what steps could be found inside it would have made me get it faster into my lazy brain! 

You mentioned that you have later versions than the one we have seen for the CR and EL bit, this means that it has got better, awesome! 

Okay, you talked about the site and uploading, so far what are the release thoughts and the product price we have, not t say about the previews and web enhancements.  huh?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Nifelhein said:
			
		

> Hi UK!!




Hi Nifelhein mate! 



			
				Nifelhein said:
			
		

> I can undeerstand fairly well what you mean with that... what i think would improve the system would be a general motivation, which you already have, and then a step by step explanation, this would give everyone a general knowledge of how it works, when I read it for the first time I just got to get the EL and Party rewarding system when i got there, if there was a comment on how the system addressed everything and what steps could be found inside it would have made me get it faster into my lazy brain!




When I get the website up I will have the space to address things like this in detail. I could have a step by step analysis of the key points.

However, I am not sure this is practical for the version contained within the IH.



			
				Nifelhein said:
			
		

> You mentioned that you have later versions than the one we have seen for the CR and EL bit, this means that it has got better, awesome!




Indeed. There are a few faults in the previous versions but almost everything is now perfect.



			
				Nifelhein said:
			
		

> Okay, you talked about the site and uploading, so far what are the release thoughts




Well the release thoughts are early April. I should have the writing finished by the end of this month and then I can give that to the editors while I finish the last batch of illustrations.



			
				Nifelhein said:
			
		

> and the product price we have,




Well the fisrt pdf should be approx. $8 or thereabouts.



			
				Nifelhein said:
			
		

> not t say about the previews and web enhancements.  huh?




Well don't expect the (psionics based) web enhancement immediately - I am in the throes of getting content on the site as we speak but time doing that eats into time doing the IH so its initially more likely to come in drips and drabs once the site is online.

I do have unofficial web enhancements planned such as new monsters; conversion systems and so forth, but these are more ideas I just want to put on the website rather than something I consider the official web enhancement.


----------



## Nifelhein

That is all good news, you can bet! Up to now what is the page count you have, if that is not speaking too much and also, is there an already confirmed print version to be done after the pdf release?

Whenthe website is ready let us know, for we will run to it as fast as you can say holy cow!


----------



## Anabstercorian

Psionics Revised web enhancement?  I.E., Doomstar?


----------



## Cergorach

Yo Upper_Krust, how's it hanging?

I'm digging "APPENDIX ONE: CHALLENGING CHALLENGE RATINGS", "APPENDIX TWO: ENCOUNTERING ENCOUNTER LEVELS", and "APPENDIX THREE: DESIGN PARAMETERS" a lot, lots of interesting assumtions. 

I'm working on an article that discusses "game balance in numbers, rewards, and progression", it's still in the "jumbled-mess-of-notes" phase, but i'm getting there ;-) Your appendixy are a good reference source for that article, but i've made a point to only include reference material/sources that are OGC, so i'm wondering if those three appendixy are going to be OGC.

Btw, how is that website of yours comming? Need any help?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Nifelhein mate! 



			
				Nifelhein said:
			
		

> That is all good news, you can bet! Up to now what is the page count you have, if that is not speaking too much and also,




352



			
				Nifelhein said:
			
		

> is there an already confirmed print version to be done after the pdf release?




Its not yet 'officially' confirmed if thats what you mean. But there will be a print version. 



			
				Nifelhein said:
			
		

> When the website is ready let us know, for we will run to it as fast as you can say holy cow!




Don't worry - I'll let you all know when I upload it.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Anabstercorian mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> Psionics Revised web enhancement?  I.E., Doomstar?




You don't want to go messing with Doomstar...as you'll eventually find out. 

I have new Psionic Divine Abilities; Portfolios; Monsters; Items and Psionic Powers outlined but not yet finished.

...and Doomstar. I am going to have a lot of fun converting him over.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Cergorach said:
			
		

> Yo Upper_Krust, how's it hanging?




Not bad mate, how are you! 



			
				Cergorach said:
			
		

> I'm digging "APPENDIX ONE: CHALLENGING CHALLENGE RATINGS", "APPENDIX TWO: ENCOUNTERING ENCOUNTER LEVELS", and "APPENDIX THREE: DESIGN PARAMETERS" a lot, lots of interesting assumtions.




Glad you liked them.



			
				Cergorach said:
			
		

> I'm working on an article that discusses "game balance in numbers, rewards, and progression", it's still in the "jumbled-mess-of-notes" phase, but i'm getting there ;-)




I know what a jumbled mess of notes looks like - I think I live in a sea of jumbled notes.



			
				Cergorach said:
			
		

> Your appendixy are a good reference source for that article, but i've made a point to only include reference material/sources that are OGC, so i'm wondering if those three appendixy are going to be OGC.




Those appendices are OGC. I'd appreciate a mention though. 



			
				Cergorach said:
			
		

> Btw, how is that website of yours comming? Need any help?




The website is finished, I am just in the process of updating enough content to make the initial viewing worthwhile.


----------



## Cergorach

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Not bad mate, how are you!



Most excellent actually! ;-)


			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Those appendices are OGC. I'd appreciate a mention though.



Of course you'll get a mention or two ;-)


			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> The website is finished, I am just in the process of updating enough content to make the initial viewing worthwhile.



When do you expect to launch? Or is that a blasphemous question ;-)


----------



## Brother Shatterstone

Hi Upper Krust! 

Hey I ’m not sure if you covered it or thought about it but you might want to drop a link to your website in your signature.  At least when your website gets done that is.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Cergorach mate! 



			
				Cergorach said:
			
		

> Most excellent actually! ;-)




Glad to hear it! 



			
				Cergorach said:
			
		

> Of course you'll get a mention or two ;-)




Appreciate the love dude! 



			
				Cergorach said:
			
		

> When do you expect to launch? Or is that a blasphemous question ;-)




In a week or two. Not long.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Hi Upper Krust!




Heya Brother Shatterstone mate! 



			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Hey I ’m not sure if you covered it or thought about it but you might want to drop a link to your website in your signature.  At least when your website gets done that is.




I will indeed mate, I was thinking along similar lines myself - but I appreciate the interest and help; thanks!


----------



## Revenge of the Bjorn

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> In a week or two. Not long.




And a choir of heavenly angels appeared and spake thus:  Finally!


----------



## slingbld

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> In a week or two. Not long.





SWEET!!

Switching back to lurker mode now


----------



## CRGreathouse

Any recent news?


----------



## Revenge of the Bjorn

The other day I was looking into what Peter Molyneux and Lionhead Studios(the guys behind the PC game Black and White among other things) have been up to and I was thinking those guys might take forever and a day to put out a game but it generally tends to be pretty awesome when its finished.  Krust's work here should be much the same thing.  He's just spent alot of time perfecting it.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey CRGreathouse mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Any recent news?




Wasn't being rude mate, I just wanted to wait until I had some concrete news to report before posting - which I don't yet have.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Bjorn mate! 



			
				Revenge of the Bjorn said:
			
		

> The other day I was looking into what Peter Molyneux and Lionhead Studios (the guys behind the PC game Black and White among other things) have been up to and I was thinking those guys might take forever and a day to put out a game but it generally tends to be pretty awesome when its finished.  Krust's work here should be much the same thing.  He's just spent alot of time perfecting it.




I agree. It'll be finished when its finished. Knew I should never have said March - what the **** was I thinking.   

Definately April though.

...DOH!


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> It'll be finished when its finished. Knew I should never have said March - what the **** was I thinking.
> 
> Definately April though.




Any idea of how long it'll be until we have a print version?  Heck, do we even know for sure that there will be a print version?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Any idea of how long it'll be until we have a print version?




Approx. 3 months from the release of the first pdf.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Heck, do we even know for sure that there will be a print version?




I appreciate the concern mate. I am confident there will be.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Approx. 3 months from the release of the first pdf.




*puts a big X on August calendar*



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I appreciate the concern mate. I am confident there will be.




I'm glad you're so confident.  Have you worked things out with a publisher 'for sure', or are things still subject to change?


----------



## Revenge of the Bjorn

How much of the ideas (as opposed to the rules) of the book could be yoinked or adapted for another less d20-y system (like Mutants and Masterminds which I feel will consume most of my groups gaming time come summer)?  Also, is there any use or mention of different ideas of divinity in the book, like really-powerful aliens as gods, or (similarly) that idea about "sufficiently advanced technology being indistinguishable from magic?" (I can't remember who it was that said that, but that guy should probly get some kind of credit for the paraphrasing above)


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi CRGreathouse mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> *puts a big X on August calendar*




I hope you don't mean for the pdf. 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I'm glad you're so confident.  Have you worked things out with a publisher 'for sure', or are things still subject to change?




Things are still subject to change.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Bjorn mate! 



			
				Revenge of the Bjorn said:
			
		

> How much of the ideas (as opposed to the rules) of the book could be yoinked or adapted for another less d20-y system (like Mutants and Masterminds which I feel will consume most of my groups gaming time come summer)?




Well from the first pdf - All the worship point stuff. Probably all the powers. The Divinity and Portfolio Templates; dependant on the campaign I suppose, I could see them working in a superhero campaign. 



			
				Revenge of the Bjorn said:
			
		

> Also, is there any use or mention of different ideas of divinity in the book, like really-powerful aliens as gods,




Yes, although in the 4th pdf - about campaigns; cosmology and pantheons.



			
				Revenge of the Bjorn said:
			
		

> or (similarly) that idea about "sufficiently advanced technology being indistinguishable from magic?" (I can't remember who it was that said that, but that guy should probly get some kind of credit for the paraphrasing above)




Yes. I have a big section on using Technology (Modern and Future vs. Immortals) - and I have two physical factors 'real' and 'comic book' (the latter being consistent with d20 Modern incidently)

...oh and Arthur C. Clarke I think you are quoting.


----------



## slingbld

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I agree. It'll be finished when its finished. Knew I should never have said March - what the **** was I thinking.
> 
> Definately April though.
> 
> ...DOH!




YOU PROMISED US! You TRICKES US!(cough)
We wants our PRECIOUS!!!  

You BETTER have it by the end of APRIL! (cough, cough)


----------



## Kavon

Hey U_K 

I was just wondering.. From all you've read about the character creation system I'm working on, how easy would you think it is for me to port all the things you've made in the IH to my system?

I'll be getting the thing either way, I'm just thinking that I'll most likely be adapting things greatly to fit into my system.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey slingbld matey! 



			
				slingbld said:
			
		

> YOU PROMISED US! You TRICKES US!(cough)
> We wants our PRECIOUS!!!
> 
> You BETTER have it by the end of APRIL! (cough, cough)




I'll try.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Kavon said:
			
		

> Hey U_K




Hi Kavon mate! 



			
				Kavon said:
			
		

> I was just wondering.. From all you've read about the character creation system I'm working on, how easy would you think it is for me to port all the things you've made in the IH to my system?




Well the IH is a supplementary system; with a lot of modular components. Added to that its all balanced by yours truly so you shouldn't have any trouble. 



			
				Kavon said:
			
		

> I'll be getting the thing either way,




I appreciate the love dude! 



			
				Kavon said:
			
		

> I'm just thinking that I'll most likely be adapting things greatly to fit into my system.




Does anyone ever use anything exactly 'out of the box' (so to speak) nowadays though...?


----------



## BSF

*sidles on in and looks around*  
*notices that there is nothing new for almost a week*
*Kicks this thread back up to the first page*

Hey Upper_Krust!
What's new/how is everything going/do we have a release date yet?  

Please?  

Very much looking forward to seeing the PDF's are they are released.


----------



## Paragon

word


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey BARDStephenFox and Paragon mateys! 



			
				BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> *sidles on in and looks around*
> *notices that there is nothing new for almost a week*
> *Kicks this thread back up to the first page*
> 
> Hey Upper_Krust!
> What's new/how is everything going/do we have a release date yet?
> 
> Please?
> 
> Very much looking forward to seeing the PDF's are they are released.




I always get burnt commiting to release dates, however I have made a lot of progress this week. 

Unfortunately I got distracted with something else this week instead of working on the website side of things but there are still complications that end at the moment that haven't been resolved as yet (not in the website itself that is, but rather in other aspects).

I appreciate the interest guys and as soon as I have something concrete you'll be the first to know.


----------



## historian

Howdy Krust!



> Unfortunately I got distracted with something else this week instead of working on the website side of things but there are still complications that end at the moment that haven't been resolved as yet (not in the website itself that is, but rather in other aspects).





I hope the distraction isn't what I think it may be -- I enjoy other boards, but some of those guys over 'you know where' need to bring it down a couple of clicks (sorry, I had to comment).  In my experience, many of the most firmly held beliefs are the least rational.

I found your contributions quite useful.  I've been tinkering around a bit with the new MURPG, but have found that it didn't scale to my liking.  I was able to use one of your charts to 'bring in it line' with my worldview of that universe.  The only work left is coming up with a cool supra deific-mystical character idea (to shake things up a bit -- I have the outline for a character who I envision being along the lines of an IG Thanos to LT power level, but I'm trying to develop a different background and origin for him than what's prevuously been explored).

Take care in the meantime dude.


----------



## Upper_Krust

historian said:
			
		

> Howdy Krust!




Hi historian mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I hope the distraction isn't what I think it may be




Unfortunately yes. Wasn't impacting my work on the IH but I was spending a few hours at night, so it was encroaching upon my website time a bit. 

Thats pretty much finished though so...



			
				historian said:
			
		

> -- I enjoy other boards, but some of those guys over 'you know where' need to bring it down a couple of clicks (sorry, I had to comment).  In my experience, many of the most firmly held beliefs are the least rational.




Well I can never resist a good debate.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I found your contributions quite useful.  I've been tinkering around a bit with the new MURPG, but have found that it didn't scale to my liking.  I was able to use one of your charts to 'bring in it line' with my worldview of that universe.




Glad I could help. I have a conversion charts for how the IH parallels the likes of OD&D, Primal Order and MSHRPG on the website.

The MSHRPG one is interesting because when you couple it with the Modern weapons charts in the IH you can start using any comic book character (at any measure of power of course) and you have the option of comic books (logic-lite) physics* or brutal real world physics.

*like d20 Modern - where Orcus can take a low yield nuke.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> The only work left is coming up with a cool supra deific-mystical character idea (to shake things up a bit -- I have the outline for a character who I envision being along the lines of an IG Thanos to LT power level, but I'm trying to develop a different background and origin for him than what's prevuously been explored).




Well of course it could be an object rather than a being.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Take care in the meantime dude.




Thanks mate.


----------



## Derulbaskul

Hi U_K,

Any more news?

Cheers
D


----------



## Upper_Krust

Derulbaskul said:
			
		

> Hi U_K,




Hey Derulbaskul mate! 



			
				Derulbaskul said:
			
		

> Any more news?
> 
> Cheers




I'll post the first quarter (32) of the list of Divine Abilities tomorrow. Just to give you guys something to chew on. Don't want to give too much away. 

I am tweaking some of the names at the moment just to get things perfect. Trust me, the abilities chapter is a complete gem. You'll love it.


----------



## Dark Wolf 97

Hey U_K!

Wow, 32 Divine Abilities, I'll not only chew, I'll probably choke!   

Still lurking....


----------



## historian

Howdy Krust!



> Well I can never resist a good debate.




Indeed -- it can be quite difficult with "fanboys" though.  



> Glad I could help. I have a conversion charts for how the IH parallels the likes of OD&D, Primal Order and MSHRPG on the website.




SWEET!  I like how your version sets forth Class 10,000, 30,000 and so forth.  These distinctions become relevant at extremely high levels, even if most folks don't tread there.  



> The MSHRPG one is interesting because when you couple it with the Modern weapons charts in the IH you can start using any comic book character (at any measure of power of course) and you have the option of comic books (logic-lite) physics* or brutal real world physics.
> 
> *like d20 Modern - where Orcus can take a low yield nuke.




That's a cool observation, knowing my tastes I tend to like physics-lite at higher levels of power, but prefer real-world for lower levels, particularly the horror genre.

In addition to tinkering with my old MSHRPG stuff, I picked up a copy of the MURPG, a diceless sytem Marvel put out about a year ago.  I'm not sure it was made available on your side of the 'pond' though.



> Well of course it could be an object rather than a being.




I think you may be on to something here - but I'm still working on an origin.  If I do settle on an object, I suspect it will be the type that "was just there" i.e. never created, it just was.

I'm looking forward to the first 32 DAs tomorrow.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi all! 

Sorry about the delay, I tried posting the list earlier but the boards were just incredibly slow. 

Here is the list of the first 32 (of 128) Divine Abilities 

Abatement
Abiding [Effect]	
Abnormal	
Achilles Heel
Adjuration
[Aligned] [Effect]	
Anyfeat
Apport		 
Apostasy		
Augmented Criticals
Awesome Vision	
Bane [Effect]
Beatific Vision	
Benediction
Blindsight						
Carapace
Celerity	
Create Spawn		
Dharma	
Diseased [Effect]
Disembodied	
Divine Architect	
Divine Champion		
Divine Immensity	
Divine Inspiration						
Divine Intuition
Divine Presence 
Divine Providence
Divine Vengeance		
Eldritch Presence
[Energy] Absorption
Energy Drain [Effect]


----------



## Upper_Krust

historian said:
			
		

> Howdy Krust!




Hiya mate! 

...and hello Dark Wolf matey!  



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Indeed -- it can be quite difficult with "fanboys" though.




I can handle them. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> SWEET!  I like how your version sets forth Class 10,000, 30,000 and so forth.  These distinctions become relevant at extremely high levels, even if most folks don't tread there.




Absolutely, you have to give people a definite beginning and end, can't leave them in the lurch.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> That's a cool observation, knowing my tastes I tend to like physics-lite at higher levels of power, but prefer real-world for lower levels, particularly the horror genre.




Well you can use both, since you can always have high and low physical factor worlds. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> In addition to tinkering with my old MSHRPG stuff, I picked up a copy of the MURPG, a diceless sytem Marvel put out about a year ago.  I'm not sure it was made available on your side of the 'pond' though.




I prefer the MSH RPG which you can find here:

http://www.heroplay.com/features/rules/marvel.php



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I think you may be on to something here - but I'm still working on an origin.  If I do settle on an object, I suspect it will be the type that "was just there" i.e. never created, it just was.




There are a lot of different approaches you can take. I like the Wall of the Source in DC, thats an interesting idea.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I'm looking forward to the first 32 DAs tomorrow.




I might post one or two in full in a day or so...


----------



## Brother Shatterstone

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Divine Presence




Anyway I can talk you into talking a little bit more about this one?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Brother Shatterstone mate! 



			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Anyway I can talk you into talking a little bit more about this one?




All followers within your presence gain a bonus feat of your choice - even if they don't make the prerequisites...has to be a feat the deity already has though.


----------



## Kalanyr

So is the website up yet since you mentioned it ? I haven't seen a link to it in this thread.


----------



## BSF

Wacky!  In a lovely sort of way.   

Looking forward to it Upper_Krust!


----------



## Revenge of the Bjorn

Does Divine immensity make a deity very large?  Its certainly an interesting idea if so.


----------



## slingbld

Kalanyr said:
			
		

> So is the website up yet since you mentioned it ? I haven't seen a link to it in this thread.




<Gollum Voice>

Yess! Where's the precious (website)?
We Wants it!!

</Gollum Voice>


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey guys! 

The website is still not online, primarily because of difficulties in payment that I don't really want to expound upon and will settle myself in due course. Sorry for the inconvenience. 



			
				Revenge of the Bjorn said:
			
		

> Does Divine immensity make a deity very large?  Its certainly an interesting idea if so.




It relates to increasing/decreasing size yes.


----------



## Kalanyr

Fair enough I just saw historian say something about the Class-3000 charts on the website and assumed it was online and I'd just missed i.  

/me goes back into Lurker Mode.


----------



## historian

> Fair enough I just saw historian say something about the Class-3000 charts on the website and assumed it was online and I'd just missed i.




My bad, the chart I was referring to was something U_K posted on another website.  I don't want to speak for Krust, but because he has already posted it elsewhere I doubt he would mind my posting a link if you have interest (the chart has system-specific non-d20 application in addition to general application). 

I'll await permission from the big guy himself.

Oh, BTW Krust, I thought you did handle the debate (and yourself) well over 'there'.



> There are a lot of different approaches you can take. I like the Wall of the Source in DC, thats an interesting idea.




Indeed this is an interesting approach.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Kalanyr and historian mateys! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> My bad, the chart I was referring to was something U_K posted on another website.  I don't want to speak for Krust, but because he has already posted it elsewhere I doubt he would mind my posting a link if you have interest (the chart has system-specific non-d20 application in addition to general application).
> 
> I'll await permission from the big guy himself.




Sure post away, I'll have it on the website anyway.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Oh, BTW Krust, I thought you did handle the debate (and yourself) well over 'there'.




Well you can't please all of the people all of time I guess. I thought I made a pretty good case, but people were still disagreeing with me even though there was no logic behind the disagreement.

You could say Comic fanboys are a microcosm of religious fervour. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Indeed this is an interesting approach.




Still pondering how I could use a similar idea in the IH.


----------



## historian

Thanks Krust.



> Sure post away, I'll have it on the website anyway.




http://www.comicboards.com/comicbattles/view.php?rpl=040329233708&q=heart%20of%20the%20universe 

That's it.



> You could say Comic fanboys are a microcosm of religious fervour.




 



> Still pondering how I could use a similar idea in the IH.




I'm sure you'll figure something out.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey historian mate! 

That link didn't work for me.

Was this the stuff you were trying to link to...?

1. Thanos w. Heart of the Universe - destroy all realities
2. Living Tribunal - destroy reality/universe
3. Eternity class - destroy galaxy
4. Higher Level Celestials (Exitar; Lord Chaos etc.) - destroy space sector.
5. Celestials (Celestials, Cosmic Cubes) - destroy planet 
6. Demiurge (Demogorge; Galactus; Ego) - devastate planet (probably destroy planet with a few blasts)
7. Elder God (Surtur; Set; Chthon) - destroy country (probably devastate a continent with a few blasts)
8. Skyfather (Odin; Thanos) - destroy city (probably destroy a country given a few blasts)
9. Death God (Seth; Silver Surfer) - destroy city block (probably destroy a city in a few blasts)
10. Superhuman (Thor +1 w. Hammer; Stellaris) - destroy skyscraper 
11. Metahuman Maximum (Bloodaxe +1 w. axe - destroy large building 
12. Metahuman (Thunderstrike +1 w. mace; - destroy building


----------



## Alzrius

Hi U_K! Did you post that list of beings? It's quite impressive! There is one part I disagree with though.



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> 1. Thanos w. Heart of the Universe - destroy all realities




This one I have to disagree with. The Heart of the Universe was indeed the center for the entire Marvel Universe, and no doubt the entire reality contained within that sphere (said sphere being the one containing their reality above the Infinity Abyss). However, to say Thanos with the Heart of the Universe could destroy all realities quite clearly isn't the case. He absorbed/destroyed everything he could, but Adam Warlock was still unaffected because he was outside the sphere of that reality at the time (he didn't even know what had transpired when he entered it again). As such, it certainly stands to reason that the other reality spheres above the Infinity Abyss were certainly equally unaffected.

While Thanos with the Heart of the Universe is certainly tougher than, say, Hunger (who eats realities like Galactus does planets), it seems obvious he could never destroy all realities with that power alone.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Alzrius said:
			
		

> Hi U_K!




Hi Alzrius mate! 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Did you post that list of beings? It's quite impressive!




I don't know about impressive. I actually have a near full list of all Marvel characters from Thor power and up floating about here at home somewhere that I did a few months back.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> There is one part I disagree with though.




Fire away...



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> This one I have to disagree with. The Heart of the Universe was indeed the center for the entire Marvel Universe, and no doubt the entire reality contained within that sphere (said sphere being the one containing their reality above the Infinity Abyss).
> 
> However, to say Thanos with the Heart of the Universe could destroy all realities quite clearly isn't the case.




You may have a point. However, if correct I think Starlin was wrong to have the Living Tribunal involved at all.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> He absorbed/destroyed everything he could, but Adam Warlock was still unaffected because he was outside the sphere of that reality at the time (he didn't even know what had transpired when he entered it again). As such, it certainly stands to reason that the other reality spheres above the Infinity Abyss were certainly equally unaffected.




That does seem applicable. However if Thanos was able to destroy the Living Tribunal who can himself destroy an entire reality; it does pose some circular arguments.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> While Thanos with the Heart of the Universe is certainly tougher than, say, Hunger (who eats realities like Galactus does planets), it seems obvious he could never destroy all realities with that power alone.




Possibly, although Hunger presumably grew in power the more he devoured.

Regarding Hunger; I always thought the entity was drawn far too 'cartoon-like' to represent a serious threat. I mean it was just a big black smilie face. Compare that to the Anti-Life equation from Cosmic Odyssey and theres a world of difference.


----------



## historian

Howdy Krust!

This is the one I had in mind:



> Feeble = 50 lbs
> Poor = 100 lbs
> Typical = 200 lbs
> Good = 400 lbs)
> Excellent = 880 lbs
> Remarkable = 1 Ton
> Incredible = 10 Ton
> Amazing = 50 Tons
> Monstrous = 75 Tons
> Unearthly = 100 Tons
> Shift-X = 1000 Tons
> Shift-Y = 1E5 Tons
> Shift-Z = 1E8 Tons
> Class 1000 = 1E12 Tons
> Class 3000 = 1E17 Tons
> Class 5000 = 1E23 Tons (Planet)
> Class 10,000 = 1E30 Tons (Star)
> Class 30,000 = 1E38 Tons (Galaxy)
> Class 50,000 = 1E47 Tons (Universe)
> Beyond
> 
> ...this ones for rank...
> 
> Typical Human
> Trained Human
> Human Maximum
> Metahuman/Typical Immortal (typical Asgardian warrior)
> Metahuman maximum/Named Immortal (Asgardian hero like Volstagg)
> Superhuman/Named God (from mythology, such as Thor)
> Superhuman maximum/Death God (such as Pluto)
> Skyfather (outside home dimension; also includes likes of Thanos)
> Skyfather (in home dimension; also includes beings like Dormammu)
> Galactus Class (also Demogorge; Demiurges; Ego)
> Celestial Class (Beyonders and Celestials)
> Higher Level Celestial Class (Exitar; Lord Chaos; Lady Love etc.)
> Eternity Class (Eternity, Death, Oblivion, Infinity)
> Infinites Class (Thanos with Infinity Gauntlet)
> Tribunal Class (Living Tribunal)
> GOD class (Thanos with Heart of the universe)




Very illuminating IMO.  I should also add that I agree w/Alzrius that there, at least theoretically, could be a being more powerful than Thanos merged w/HOU (If I recall the purple guy was unable to correct a fundamental flaw in the fabric of reality even post-merger).  Although I find it very difficult to identify a fictional character offhand who would take him down (maybe The Source from DC?).

Of course, we could speculate that the HOU is truly a limitless artifact and that Thanos really could have done anything but 'couldn't' bring himself to will certain things to happen - this though raises some of the 'paradoxes' of omnipotence (i.e. could an omnipotent being create a rock that he couldn't lift, etc.).

That's one reason why my intuitions suggest something beyond 'logical' omnipotence, something that is simply unknowable by lesser minds, although the practical value of this intuition is zero.

Looking forward to the website dude.


----------



## CRGreathouse

What do these titles (unearthly, shift-X/Y/Z, class #) mean?


----------



## Alzrius

CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> What do these titles (unearthly, shift-X/Y/Z, class #) mean?




IIRC, these are the power measurements from TSR's original _Marvel Superheroes_ game.


----------



## Alzrius

historian said:
			
		

> I should also add that I agree w/Alzrius that there, at least theoretically, could be a being more powerful than Thanos merged w/HOU




Well, that wasn't really the point I was trying to make, but I certainly do think that that is true (just look at The Brothers from the Marvel vs. DC crossover. Those guys are, from what I can tell, meant to be the absolute top of the power-chain).



> _(If I recall the purple guy was unable to correct a fundamental flaw in the fabric of reality even post-merger)._




To be perfectly fair, Thanos _did_ correct the flaw in the universe, it's just that doing so necessitated destroying the universe and then re-making it, exactly as it was, from scratch; a process that took all of Thanos's power after becoming the Heart of the Universe. Luckily for him, that also included remaking himself as well (without that power).



> _Although I find it very difficult to identify a fictional character offhand who would take him down (maybe The Source from DC?)._




See "The Brothers" above.   

That said, I found it interesting that Thanos kept making veiled allusions that the being who previously had that much power (how and where were left nebulous) was, in fact, God; but also that God could not (or would not; presumably because of the price involved in power expenditure) correct the flaw in the universe, and so deliberately manipulated Thanos into doing so.



> _Of course, we could speculate that the HOU is truly a limitless artifact and that Thanos really could have done anything but 'couldn't' bring himself to will certain things to happen - this though raises some of the 'paradoxes' of omnipotence (i.e. could an omnipotent being create a rock that he couldn't lift, etc.)._




I prefer to think of it that true omnipotence, in the most literal sense of the word, doesn't exist. There's just being who have such vast amounts of power that, on our measurement abilities, it becomes hard to see how they aren't all-powerful (to each other, though, the differences would be clear). Just imagine how the amoeba thinks of us (we'd be human Celestials).



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> However if Thanos was able to destroy the Living Tribunal who can himself destroy an entire reality; it does pose some circular arguments.




Only from a certain point of view. Thanos could (and I think did) have more sheer power than the Living Tribunal when he was one with the Heart of the Universe. The Living Tribunal can destroy the entire universe. Thanos did, and the Tribunal as well, so obviously he's more powerful than that. However, raising the bar by saying he could "destroy multiple realities" is assigning him power he doesn't have...either due to limitations on his power as is, or because the Heart of the Universe is itself limited to just the Marvel Universe.

The trouble is using the proper terms to quantify how much power one has. Thanos with the Heart of the Universe can do more than destroy a reality, but not so much as to destroy multiple ones...so he's more than the Living Tribunal, but less than the power your list gives him there.



> _Regarding Hunger; I always thought the entity was drawn far too 'cartoon-like' to represent a serious threat. I mean it was just a big black smilie face. Compare that to the Anti-Life equation from Cosmic Odyssey and theres a world of difference._




I thought Hunger looked cool when he was just addressing the reader. The way the panels with him were nothing but blackness with those vicious yellow eyes and somewhat-insane grin, and that he was actually talking to use, was rather intimidating. It was only when he moved into action that he seemed less threatening...like a large blob of black pudding with a face.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi CRGreathouse mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> What do these titles (unearthly, shift-X/Y/Z, class #) mean?




They are references to old MSH RPG scores as follows:

Feeble = 2
Poor = 4
Typical = 6
Good = 10
Excellent = 20
Remarkable = 30
Incredible = 40
Amazing = 50
Monstrous = 75
Unearthly = 100
Shift-X = 150
Shift-Y = 200
Shift-Z = 500
Class 1000 = 1000
Class 3000 = 3000
Class 5000 = 5000
Class 10,000 = Krust only
Class 30,000 = Krust only
Class 50,000 = Krust only
Beyond = Infinite

The official rules only go up to Class 5000 and then have Beyond (Infinite Class). However there is a large gulf between planetary level effect and Infinite effect hence my expansion.

Also of note is that the official rules generally don't explain anything from Class 1000 up, or at least they are very ambiguous when doing so. Of course that wasn't good enough for me so I set about defining them.

Also the official rules definitions of Shift-X to Shift-Z when applied to strength are (according to my research) wrong. So of course i had to correct that as well and create a functioning progression.

As an example Thor is determined as follows:

Fighting: Unearthly (100)
Agility: Remarkable (30)
Strength: Unearthly (100)
Endurance: Unearthly (100)
Reason: Good (10)
Intuition: Excellent (20)
Psyche: Amazing (50)

Health: 330 (total Fighting; Agility; Strength; Endurance)
Karma: 80 (total Reason; Intuition; Psyche)


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Alzrius mate! 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Only from a certain point of view. Thanos could (and I think did) have more sheer power than the Living Tribunal when he was one with the Heart of the Universe. The Living Tribunal can destroy the entire universe. Thanos did, and the Tribunal as well, so obviously he's more powerful than that. However, raising the bar by saying he could "destroy multiple realities" is assigning him power he doesn't have...either due to limitations on his power as is, or because the Heart of the Universe is itself limited to just the Marvel Universe.
> 
> The trouble is using the proper terms to quantify how much power one has. Thanos with the Heart of the Universe can do more than destroy a reality, but not so much as to destroy multiple ones...so he's more than the Living Tribunal, but less than the power your list gives him there.




The problem I have with that is; Thanos (w. HOU) destroyed the Living Tribunal and multiple Cosmic Entities almost with one blast. His power is clearly an order of magnitude above the Living Tribunal. Given that the LT can destroy a single reality with one blast we have to assume Thanos power is something significantly beyond that, not slightly, but significantly.

Regarding Warlocks appearance at the end of the story it could be that Thanos destroyed all realities but not Warlock who was indirectly linked to his Psyche or something...? Of course thats just a shot in the dark.

But definately the whole issue is muddled in confusion because of the Living Tribunals involvement.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Just keeping the countdown going... 



Spoiler



316 days to go ;-)


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Just keeping the countdown going...
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> 316 days to go ;-)




It actually hurts me to read a post like that now...however I suppose it should, given my ineptitude to get to the finish line.   

Hopefully I can get a good run at things this week.


----------



## Rhuarc

Hi,
one question. Exists out there maybe any online archive about the marvel/DC things you've talked about? 
Thanks in advance


----------



## Upper_Krust

Rhuarc said:
			
		

> Hi,




Hi Rhuarc mate! 



			
				Rhuarc said:
			
		

> one question.




Fire away...



			
				Rhuarc said:
			
		

> Exists out there maybe any online archive about the marvel/DC things you've talked about? Thanks in advance




Not as such, however I am devoting a small part of my website to cover the conversion between the Immortals Handbook and the MSH RPG (among other systems), which will include a more in depth treatment.

Was there anything specific you wanted addressed?


----------



## CRGreathouse

You know we're all just looking forward to it, right?  I can't wait; this will be a great tool, I think, for campaign building.  (Don't take my kidding too seriously!)


----------



## Anabstercorian

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> The problem I have with that is; Thanos (w. HOU) destroyed the Living Tribunal and multiple Cosmic Entities almost with one blast. His power is clearly an order of magnitude above the Living Tribunal. Given that the LT can destroy a single reality with one blast we have to assume Thanos power is something significantly beyond that, not slightly, but significantly.




Eggshell, hammer.  How many Doomstar's could one Doomstar kill with a single Ground Zero given appropriate preparation and tactical advantage?  Just because their offensive capacity is vast does not necessarily imply the same of their DEFENSIVE capacity...


----------



## Rhuarc

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hi Rhuarc mate!
> 
> 
> Was there anything specific you wanted addressed?





Hi UK 

Well, I'm finding the stuff about Thanos and the whole cosmic stories very intersting. Now I've found a Thanos-devoted HP and most of the background story I've looked for.
But I'll take a look at you HP as well, thanks


----------



## Upper_Krust

HI CRGreathouse mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> You know we're all just looking forward to it, right?  I can't wait; this will be a great tool, I think, for campaign building.  (Don't take my kidding too seriously!)




I know mate - I appreciate the interest.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Anabstercorian mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> Eggshell, hammer.  How many Doomstar's could one Doomstar kill with a single Ground Zero given appropriate preparation and tactical advantage?  Just because their offensive capacity is vast does not necessarily imply the same of their DEFENSIVE capacity...




I see your point...however, when dealing with cosmic types in the Marvel Universe their power can be used both offensively and defensively at will. So if the Living Tribunal was resisting Thanos (w. HOU); then he was effectively resisting with power on a universal level! If Thanos was only the 'GOD' of a single reality then why did he have any power over the Tribunal - who judges all realities?

Another point is that Thanos (in 'The End') constantly alludes to the idea that the Heart of the Universe is the power of GOD literally passed down to him. So it begs the question: "Would it really be GOD if it was only responsible for one universe?".

The catch 22 is:

Thanos (w. HOU) > Living Tribunal > Single Universe = Thanos (w. HOU)


----------



## Upper_Krust

Rhuarc said:
			
		

> Hi UK




Hiya mate! 



			
				Rhuarc said:
			
		

> Well, I'm finding the stuff about Thanos and the whole cosmic stories very intersting. Now I've found a Thanos-devoted HP and most of the background story I've looked for. But I'll take a look at you HP as well, thanks




There is a useful website on Thanos here:

http://thanos.crowfans.com/thanos.html


----------



## Rhuarc

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hiya mate!
> 
> 
> 
> There is a useful website on Thanos here:
> 
> http://thanos.crowfans.com/thanos.html




I've found exactely this one


----------



## historian

> To be perfectly fair, Thanos _did_ correct the flaw in the universe, it's just that doing so necessitated destroying the universe and then re-making it, exactly as it was, from scratch; a process that took all of Thanos's power after becoming the Heart of the Universe. Luckily for him, that also included remaking himself as well (without that power).
> 
> 
> That said, I found it interesting that Thanos kept making veiled allusions that the being who previously had that much power (how and where were left nebulous) was, in fact, God; but also that God could not (or would not; presumably because of the price involved in power expenditure) correct the flaw in the universe, and so deliberately manipulated Thanos into doing so.




I hear you, my only point was that a truly omnipotent being (if such a state of being can logically exist) wouldn't have exhausted all of its/his power by re-making either the universe or multiverse (at least I don't think so).

That said, I do believe that HOU Thanos was at a level of power that was categorically higher than even LT.



> I prefer to think of it that true omnipotence, in the most literal sense of the word, doesn't exist. There's just being who have such vast amounts of power that, on our measurement abilities, it becomes hard to see how they aren't all-powerful (to each other, though, the differences would be clear). Just imagine how the amoeba thinks of us (we'd be human Celestials).





You could be absolutely right, and this seems a reasonable way to think about this.


----------



## historian

Howdy Krust!

I have an idea that I wanted to run by you:

Despite any testimonial (verbal) evidence to the contrary (such as suggesting that the HOU was the full-on power of GOD) would it be plausible to posit a theory that it may be merely an artifact created by or removed from a truly omnipotent source (like the eye of Vecna)?

Moreover, do you think that beings like "The Brothers' or heck, even the HOU (to the extent it was sentient) are merely avatars?

Thanks in advance dude.


----------



## Upper_Krust

historian said:
			
		

> Howdy Krust!




Hiya mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I have an idea that I wanted to run by you:




Fire away.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Despite any testimonial (verbal) evidence to the contrary (such as suggesting that the HOU was the full-on power of GOD) would it be plausible to posit a theory that it may be merely an artifact created by or removed from a truly omnipotent source (like the eye of Vecna)?




Given that the HOU wasn't sentient itself it is plausible to assume it was a construct of sorts.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Moreover, do you think that beings like "The Brothers' or heck, even the HOU (to the extent it was sentient) are merely avatars?




I never liked that whole 'Brothers' fiasco for a number of reasons (though weren't their shenanigans retconned to the extent that Speccy and Tribs just let them think they were the most powerful beings in the multiverse?). How the heck can they say the Spectre is the equal of the Living Tribunal!? The whole idea is ludicrous.

As for the idea of those types being mere Avatars. In the shadow of an actual 'Supreme Being' technically everything is an Avatar; given that they would be 'everything'.


----------



## Alzrius

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> If Thanos was only the 'GOD' of a single reality then why did he have any power over the Tribunal - who judges all realities?




Just curious, where are you getting the idea that the Living Tribunal judges all realities from? Because, as we've seen, that clearly isn't the case. Although this is stretching it a bit, we've seen that, for example, the DC universe is another reality, and the Living Tribunal certainly has no sway there (notwithstanding the various crossovers which purport that Marvel Earth and DC Earth are one and the same).

It's always risky to include crossovers in this sort of thing, but that said, The Brothers seem to knock the Living Tribunal down in terms of power scale...and yet, each of them is the "god" of their respective (Marvel and DC) universes, and no other. Honestly, it seems like the entire thing with the Living Tribunal can be solved if we ditch the bit about him being the judge of all realities everywhere.

As an aside, didn't even the Living Tribunal admit (in word or deed) that his power was dwarfed by Molecule Man's? A friend told me this.

In terms of the Heart of the Universe being the literal power of God...this is tricky, because we've seen examples of quite a few beings/instances that could have been God. Thanos once said that the Infinity Gems were the last remnants of a supreme unique being, that had all power, but existed utterly alone, and chose to end itself for that reason, with it's power surviving in the form of the six gems. And yet, despite them being the power of a supposedly omnipotent being, they were dwarfed by the Heart of the Universe.

Likewise, each of the Brothers was said to be "God", basically, for their respective universes.

I think one possible solution is that we may not be giving total credit where credit is due on the subject of the spherical reality that the Marvel universe is housed in (the one Adam Warlock saw in the Infinity Abyss saga). This is not just the physical summation of the singular Marvel universe...rather, it encompasses the entirety of Marvel reality! Not just the universe, but every dimension, every parallel universe, everything not produced by another comics company, in other words (those companies' works would be other spherical realities in the vortex between the white infinity above and the black abyss at the bottom). Hence, the multiple realities that the Living Tribunal judged could all have been within that singular sphere...and Thanos annihilated it all...that would seem to correct the power imbalance also.



> _I never liked that whole 'Brothers' fiasco for a number of reasons (though weren't their shenanigans retconned to the extent that Speccy and Tribs just let them think they were the most powerful beings in the multiverse?)._




Eh? Where did you hear that?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Alzrius mate! 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Just curious, where are you getting the idea that the Living Tribunal judges all realities from?




1. Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe entry:

"...and whose fuction is to safeguard the multiverse (the continuum of alternate universes) from an imbalance of mystical forces."

2. What If #34, Korvac hadn't died - the Tribunal states that he has multiple realities to judge.

3. The Infinity Gauntlet was powerless against him - and we know it was tied to a single reality.

4. The Living Tribunal can destroy a Universe. Obviously if he was of the one universe that wouldn't make much sense would it.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Because, as we've seen, that clearly isn't the case. Although this is stretching it a bit, we've seen that, for example, the DC universe is another reality, and the Living Tribunal certainly has no sway there (notwithstanding the various crossovers which purport that Marvel Earth and DC Earth are one and the same).




I think it would be pompous for Marvel characters to lord it over rival publishers universes, so whether that was the case or not it simply wasn't going to happen.

Though, perhaps in the DC Universe the Tribunal looks like the Spectre?



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> It's always risky to include crossovers in this sort of thing, but that said, The Brothers seem to knock the Living Tribunal down in terms of power scale...and yet, each of them is the "god" of their respective (Marvel and DC) universes, and no other. Honestly, it seems like the entire thing with the Living Tribunal can be solved if we ditch the bit about him being the judge of all realities everywhere.




Why would we ditch something thats intrinsic to him though. Thats the whole point of the character.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> As an aside, didn't even the Living Tribunal admit (in word or deed) that his power was dwarfed by Molecule Man's? A friend told me this.




Obviously that was pre-retconned Beyonder/Cosmic Cube when the Beyonders power was supposedly limitless, but we later find out a lot of it was illusionary.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> In terms of the Heart of the Universe being the literal power of God...this is tricky, because we've seen examples of quite a few beings/instances that could have been God. Thanos once said that the Infinity Gems were the last remnants of a supreme unique being, that had all power, but existed utterly alone, and chose to end itself for that reason, with it's power surviving in the form of the six gems. And yet, despite them being the power of a supposedly omnipotent being, they were dwarfed by the Heart of the Universe.




Exactly. The Infinity Gems represented the power of the Supreme Being of a single reality. Whereas the HOU represented the Supreme Being of all realities. At least thats what seems logical to me; of course I could be wrong.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Likewise, each of the Brothers was said to be "God", basically, for their respective universes.




Many bandy the word about but only Thanos w. HOU can realistically lay claim to the title with any meaning.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> I think one possible solution is that we may not be giving total credit where credit is due on the subject of the spherical reality that the Marvel universe is housed in (the one Adam Warlock saw in the Infinity Abyss saga). This is not just the physical summation of the singular Marvel universe...rather, it encompasses the entirety of Marvel reality! Not just the universe, but every dimension, every parallel universe, everything not produced by another comics company, in other words (those companies' works would be other spherical realities in the vortex between the white infinity above and the black abyss at the bottom). Hence, the multiple realities that the Living Tribunal judged could all have been within that singular sphere...and Thanos annihilated it all...that would seem to correct the power imbalance also.




It think it would be easy to debate for weeks the existential nature of the Marvel Universe. However, its obvious we don't have enough evidence at this time to resolve the matter beyond the purely subjective (unless someone knows Jim Starlins email address).

We could hypothesise that the Tribunal only governs the continuum of the Marvel sphere - however given that the alternate realities of that sphere are themselves infinite; in one of them Captain America could be called Batman and Thor could be called Superman.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Eh? Where did you hear that?




Over at Superherochat. I don't know the validity of it though.


----------



## Rhuarc

Hi,

one question about the HOU. Could someone please explain me where Thanos finds it and how learned about it? Cannot find an answer at several sites...
And I find it strange that only Thanos ever discovers and gets such ultimate power (from the Cosmic Cube, the Infinity Gauntlet and the HOU). 
Mephisto for example wanted the Gauntlet in the past, too. Why haven't he took the gems earlier? He is strong enough to accomplish that for sure. 
Or similar powerful and evil cosmic beings. Aren't they striving for might or destruction?
Thanks in advance


----------



## Upper_Krust

Rhuarc said:
			
		

> Hi,




Hey Rhuarc mate! 



			
				Rhuarc said:
			
		

> one question about the HOU. Could someone please explain me where Thanos finds it and how learned about it? Cannot find an answer at several sites...




Aliens from a group called the Celestial Order kidnap Pharoah Akhenaten (sp? from memory) in 1000 BC (or somesuch) and he spends 3000 years learning to absorb energy from the HOU. Akhenaten then returns and claims Earth for himself killing those who get in his way. Thanos leads a strike team to teh source of the power onboard the alien mothership - however the team are outmatched, but Thanos jumps into the Heart of the Universe and because of his experience with omnipotence is able to survive the transition...



			
				Rhuarc said:
			
		

> And I find it strange that only Thanos ever discovers and gets such ultimate power (from the Cosmic Cube, the Infinity Gauntlet and the HOU).




Well Thanos is one of the few with the will and the means and the guile to achieve that sort of thing - and even he was only able to hold on to that sort of power for a short time. 



			
				Rhuarc said:
			
		

> Mephisto for example wanted the Gauntlet in the past, too. Why haven't he took the gems earlier? He is strong enough to accomplish that for sure.




I don't agree that he has the determination and willpower to risk 'everything' in that pursuit as is/was Thanos.



			
				Rhuarc said:
			
		

> Or similar powerful and evil cosmic beings. Aren't they striving for might or destruction?




No. Beings intrinsically linked to the cosmos know their place within that universe. They have no individuality as such - even Galactus is driven by his hunger rather than any desire for conquest. Only individuals who are not 'part' of the cosmos generally have such desires.


----------



## Rhuarc

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hey Rhuarc mate!
> 
> 
> Aliens from a group called the Celestial Order kidnap Pharoah Akhenaten (sp? from memory) in 1000 BC (or somesuch) and he spends 3000 years learning to absorb energy from the HOU. Akhenaten then returns and claims Earth for himself killing those who get in his way. Thanos leads a strike team to teh source of the power onboard the alien mothership - however the team are outmatched, but Thanos jumps into the Heart of the Universe and because of his experience with omnipotence is able to survive the transition...




Thanks for the help 




			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I don't agree that he has the determination and willpower to risk 'everything' in that pursuit as is/was Thanos.




Well, I've not read any of the comics or have detailed information about the story, but what I've read from the Thanos website he had not _that_ great problems to get the infinity gems from their former owners. So Mephisto wouldn't had to risk 'everything' to get the ultimate power. But of course I could be wrong 



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> No. Beings intrinsically linked to the cosmos know their place within that universe. They have no individuality as such - even Galactus is driven by his hunger rather than any desire for conquest. Only individuals who are not 'part' of the cosmos generally have such desires.




Ah, that's a good explanation. Thanks


----------



## Kavon

Hey U_K 

Any news for us waiting folk?


----------



## Matrix Sorcica

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> It'll be finished when its finished. Knew I should never have said March - what the **** was I thinking.
> 
> Definately April though.
> 
> ...DOH!




2005?


----------



## Cheiromancer

Upper Krust!

The system of relating Challenge Ratings and Encounter Levels that you describe in Appendix 2- is there a name for it?

I mean besides "Upper Krust's system of relating Challenge Ratings and Encounter Levels, as described in Appendix 2 of the Immortal's Handbook."  While accurate, that's a little unwieldy.

I'm going to call it the "Immortal's CR System" in another post, but I'll go and edit it if you let me know what you prefer to call it.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey guys! 

Apologies for the continued delays. I feel somewhat foolish. I am trying to make sure everythings perfect and I guess in doing so I am procrastinating over minutiae. 

I'll try and get everything sorted ASAP. Promise.   



			
				Cheiromancer said:
			
		

> Upper Krust!
> 
> The system of relating Challenge Ratings and Encounter Levels that you describe in Appendix 2- is there a name for it?
> 
> I mean besides "Upper Krust's system of relating Challenge Ratings and Encounter Levels, as described in Appendix 2 of the Immortal's Handbook."  While accurate, that's a little unwieldy.
> 
> I'm going to call it the "Immortal's CR System" in another post, but I'll go and edit it if you let me know what you prefer to call it.




Well I always liked the 'Challenging Challenge Ratings' and 'Encountering Encounter Levels' Article titles. But I guess you can call them whatever you wish mate.


----------



## Cheiromancer

Upper Krust,

You are always so gracious in your posts... even with a certain Egyptian Death God whose name I will not invoke!  It will be a great relief, no doubt, for you to finally have the Immortal's Handbook off to print.    

Now, it turns out that I just referred to your system as "Upper Krust's system", which is even easier than the "Immortal's CR System."  It was in the context of a fixed xp value for encounters of a given EL.  I would be flattered if you checked it out.

(I'm most proud of this post  which awards XP based on CR, and forgets about EL altogether.  It also handles treasure awards!)

The link to the thread is here.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Cheiromancer said:
			
		

> Upper Krust,




Hiya mate! 



			
				Cheiromancer said:
			
		

> You are always so gracious in your posts... even with a certain Egyptian Death God whose name I will not invoke!




Hes a good guy whose just a touch over-exuberant at times.



			
				Cheiromancer said:
			
		

> It will be a great relief, no doubt, for you to finally have the Immortal's Handbook off to print.




It will indeed. I feel really embarassed to not have it finished and out there already.   



			
				Cheiromancer said:
			
		

> Now, it turns out that I just referred to your system as "Upper Krust's system", which is even easier than the "Immortal's CR System."




Thats fine mate. 



			
				Cheiromancer said:
			
		

> It was in the context of a fixed xp value for encounters of a given EL.  I would be flattered if you checked it out.




I will (I have already glanced over it - very interesting). I will reply there later tonight; I have been limiting (for the most part) my online activities to the evenings.



			
				Cheiromancer said:
			
		

> (I'm most proud of this post  which awards XP based on CR, and forgets about EL altogether.  It also handles treasure awards!)
> 
> The link to the thread is here.




Yes it does seem a very simple way of doing it!


----------



## BSF

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hey guys!
> 
> Apologies for the continued delays. I feel somewhat foolish. I am trying to make sure everythings perfect and I guess in doing so I am procrastinating over minutiae.
> 
> I'll try and get everything sorted ASAP. Promise.




Don't fret over it too much Upper_Krust.  Though, I kind of expect to begin running some Epic scale adventures for a single player here soon.  The PC wants to become a deity, so I am eagerly awaiting your stuff.


----------



## Paragon

I know it’s not much consolation but if there is any perceived impatience I’m sure it is merely from gamers wanting to get their grubby little hands on what I’m convinced will be a game-world alter book.  
At least that’s the excuse I’m going with 
I know it will be great, and I'm looking forward to it.

word


----------



## S'mon

Epic/Immortals thoughts - reposted from General.

I didn't buy the Handbook due to negative publicity, but do have the SRD.

What I'd really like is Epic/Deity-level rules that really simplified play at this level, rather than making it ever-more-complex.  AFAIK the old Immortals set for BXCMI D&D did this by mechanics that made regular spellcasting largely redundant.

Things I'd like to see:

1.  A greatly simplified Feats system for (N)PC creation - Skills can be kept simple by having NPCs maxed out in their preferred skills, but Feats are a real pain, and dominate Epic 'builds'.

2. Simplified spells system; maybe Epic spontaneous spellcasters could use a Power Points 'energy battery' system, rather than slots?  The current Epic system seems to rather nerf spellcasters, so it might be ok if this let them be a bit more powerful.  Particularly suitable for divine beings IMO.

3. Discouraging one-upmanship battle-of-spells conflict resolution.  Spell Resistance should probably be standard for beings at this level; they should be largely resistant to beings of a similar power-level, ie ca SR 20+Character Level.  Maybe they have to actively maintain a 'Spell Shield', and drop it to cast spells (or Spell-like abilities) themselves - I think Immortals set used this?  That would solve a lot of problems in the way D&D favours offense over defense so hugely.

4.  Reduced reliance on items, other than one or two signature items, & on temporary buff spells.  At this level I tend to feel all available enhancements should be 'built in' to the characters; relying on scads of +10 items just isn't Epic to me.  Eg if the (N)PC has Natural Armour, let it be permanently Enhanced so they don't need to keep buffing with Barkskin spells & such before every fight.  Let stat Enhancements be permanent so there's no need for Bull's Strength or Belts of Giant Strength (unless really Epic ones), etc.

5.  Guidelines/Tables for typical NPCs at 21st-40th level like those in 3.0 DMG would be good, too (if Epic handbook doesn't have this, it should).


----------



## CRGreathouse

(1) would sadden me.  I love the epic feat system as it works now (though I've modified some feats).

For (5), the ELH does have such tables.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Heya mate! 



			
				BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> Don't fret over it too much Upper_Krust.




I'll try not to.



			
				BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> Though, I kind of expect to begin running some Epic scale adventures for a single player here soon.  The PC wants to become a deity, so I am eagerly awaiting your stuff.




I appreciate the support...and the subtle kick in the pants.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Paragon mate! 



			
				Paragon said:
			
		

> I know it’s not much consolation but if there is any perceived impatience I’m sure it is merely from gamers wanting to get their grubby little hands on what I’m convinced will be a game-world alter book.
> At least that’s the excuse I’m going with
> 
> I know it will be great, and I'm looking forward to it.




The only thing I can guarantee at the moment is to confirm your suspicions that it is indeed great.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey S'mon! 



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> Epic/Immortals thoughts - reposted from General.




I'll go and take a look but I have sort of lost my confidence of throwing my opinions around outside the safety of the few threads herein the House Rules forums, because of my current procrastination.



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> I didn't buy the Handbook due to negative publicity, but do have the SRD.




Well you were able to have a look before you had to make the decision since I already showed you the book and gave you my thoughts on it. 



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> What I'd really like is Epic/Deity-level rules that really simplified play at this level, rather than making it ever-more-complex.  AFAIK the old Immortals set for BXCMI D&D did this by mechanics that made regular spellcasting largely redundant.




Well I don't like removing choice from the players, but I think if you make the basics really simple then give people dozens of options you can cover both bases.

So thats why I have things like the Divinity Templates and Portfolio templates really simple; but then you have literally hundreds of possible divine abilities.



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> Things I'd like to see:
> 
> 1.  A greatly simplified Feats system for (N)PC creation - Skills can be kept simple by having NPCs maxed out in their preferred skills, but Feats are a real pain, and dominate Epic 'builds'.




Well lets just say I have skill sorted. 

Regarding feats; I agree they can be unwieldy even before epic levels; the way I have handled this is twofold. One is that you can choose Divine Abilities by expending five feat slots. So that eats them up. The second is by creating Ability 'Packages' that are groupings of feats with a specific theme. 

So you might have a Fighter package; a Monk package and so forth.



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> 2. Simplified spells system; maybe Epic spontaneous spellcasters could use a Power Points 'energy battery' system, rather than slots?  The current Epic system seems to rather nerf spellcasters, so it might be ok if this let them be a bit more powerful.  Particularly suitable for divine beings IMO.




I actually have a system for epic magic that is super simple; you'll love it Simon. Trust the Krust. 



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> 3. Discouraging one-upmanship battle-of-spells conflict resolution.




Can you expand on that a bit?



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> Spell Resistance should probably be standard for beings at this level; they should be largely resistant to beings of a similar power-level, ie ca SR 20+Character Level.




Spell Resistance does seem to have become a bit less useful in 3rd Ed - probably due to Spell Penetration. I mean if you give them 50% SR vs. their own level for practical purposes you are probably only giving them effectively 25%.



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> Maybe they have to actively maintain a 'Spell Shield', and drop it to cast spells (or Spell-like abilities) themselves - I think Immortals set used this?  That would solve a lot of problems in the way D&D favours offense over defense so hugely.




I don't know if I favour the idea as generic, but I'll give the idea some thought as perhaps an optional rule.



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> 4.  Reduced reliance on items, other than one or two signature items,




I think limiting the item slots was certainly a step in the right direction. Personally I can see deities having a few signature items (depending on how powerful they are - eg. Odin has about half a dozen) with maybe a few items that would represent the best stuff in the DMG filling out the other slots.



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> & on temporary buff spells.




This is a tricky one, but I think it has to be dealt with. Most of the horror stories of epic games I have read about involved ridiculous buffing.

Naturally I have handled this problem with the magic system. 



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> At this level I tend to feel all available enhancements should be 'built in' to the characters; relying on scads of +10 items just isn't Epic to me.  Eg if the (N)PC has Natural Armour, let it be permanently Enhanced so they don't need to keep buffing with Barkskin spells & such before every fight.  Let stat Enhancements be permanent so there's no need for Bull's Strength or Belts of Giant Strength (unless really Epic ones), etc.




Of course players are going to say well what if I want to add buffs to the enhancements. 

But I agree with you it should be toned down (its easily handled) - if you remember our 1st Ed. games it got to the point where I would just say 'All defensive spells cast'.  



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> 5.  Guidelines/Tables for typical NPCs at 21st-40th level like those in 3.0 DMG would be good, too (if Epic handbook doesn't have this, it should).




The Epic book has this from 21st-30th level.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey CRGreathouse mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> (1) would sadden me.  I love the epic feat system as it works now (though I've modified some feats).




I have it intact, but simplified.

So instead of taking 30 feats you might want to take 20 feats and two divine abilities.

Or instead of taking 130 feats you might want to take 3 Cosmic Abilities; 6 Divine Abilities and 25 feats.

Or instead of taking 1030 feats...etc.


----------



## S'mon

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hey S'mon!




Hey U_K, thanks for feedback - lots of interesting stuff!  I like the idea of the multi-feat abilities, & the packages sound a boon for the poor GM.  The ELH seems to work ok for continuing on PCs who started from low level, but seems terrible for creating Epic (N)PCs from scratch.  I'd like a system that let me create Thor-level characters in a few minutes, rather than hours.

Oh, and you can't stack Enhancements with Enhancements, of course.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I have it intact, but simplified.
> 
> So instead of taking 30 feats you might want to take 20 feats and two divine abilities.
> 
> Or instead of taking 130 feats you might want to take 3 Cosmic Abilities; 6 Divine Abilities and 25 feats.
> 
> Or instead of taking 1030 feats...etc.




This isn't bad at all.  It helps avoid the problem of combination abilities (SDAs that work as several epic feats, for example).

I wouldn't like a system that essentially changes the nature of 3E feats -- discrete abilities that don't (directly) scale with level and have a system of prerequisites.

I'm sure you've done a good job, from what you've shown us.  If there was anything I was worried about it would be the prerequisites (since you mentioned that you simplified them/reduced their number), but I have faith that you won't go overboard here.


----------



## Cheiromancer

Upper Krust said:
			
		

> I'll go and take a look but I have sort of lost my confidence of throwing my opinions around outside the safety of the few threads herein the House Rules forums, because of my current procrastination.




I had better post this here, then 


I had another insight about the fixed XP awards- and I think this is the last; XP is a multiple of the square of the CR.

Here's how I got it:

From the Challenge Challenge Ratings and Encountering Encounter Levels rules, the rule relating CR and EL can be obtained: doubling CR increases EL by +4.  We also get a rule for assigning xp: Increasing the EL by +4 quadruples XP.  Therefore doubling the CR of a creature quadruples the XP award for defeating it.

I had wondered what kind of function satisfied the relationship f(2x)=2f(x), but it suddenly occurred to me that the function had to be a quadratic function.

Oops!  I meant to say that f(2x)=4f(x).

i.e.

XP = 75 x (CR x CR)

To avoid a proliferation of 5's, you might want to the nearest 100, at least after level 1.

Levels by xp is just the integral of 13.333 encounters per level, and so it has to be a cubic formula:

XP = 100 x (level x level x level)

Again, to simplify things you might want to round up to the nearest 1000.

This formula also holds for expected PC wealth.

---

I think this is the simplest and most accurate implementation of the CR system in relation to XP.

I earnestly commend it to you for your consideration!

[edit]Error typing an equation.  See correction in redabove[/edit]


----------



## CRGreathouse

Cheiromancer said:
			
		

> I had wondered what kind of function satisfied the relationship f(2x)=2f(x), but it suddenly occurred to me that the function had to be a quadratic function.




That won't hold, in general, for *any* quadratic function:

(4ax^2+2bx+c) / (ax^2+bx+c) := 2

implies a=c=0, a linear function.


For UK's system, take the difference D between the monster EL and the party EL and calculate:

1200*2^(D/2)

If you're a real stickler for making the formula match the rounding of the chart (Wulf...), instead use:

1200*2^int(D/2)*(1+D/2-int(D/2))


----------



## Upper_Krust

S'mon said:
			
		

> Hey U_K,




Hey S'mon! 



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> thanks for feedback




Thats a given - I reply to every post directed my way. 



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> - lots of interesting stuff!




Thanks.



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> I like the idea of the multi-feat abilities, & the packages sound a boon for the poor GM.




He he! 



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> The ELH seems to work ok for continuing on PCs who started from low level, but seems terrible for creating Epic (N)PCs from scratch.  I'd like a system that let me create Thor-level characters in a few minutes, rather than hours.




10 minutes tops. 

I am working on a list of feats and divine abilities by class type. So it'll just be:

1. Thor - determine Divine Status (ie. Intermediate God)
2. Roll Levels (I have a table for this; ie. Demigod = 30 + 1d10); I also have a table for split class levels.
3. Roll Ability scores
4. Apply Divinity Template
5. Apply Portfolio Templates
6. Determine Feats & Divine Abilities 



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> Oh, and you can't stack Enhancements with Enhancements, of course.




You can stack Divine Bonuses with Enchancements though.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi CRGreathouse mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> This isn't bad at all.  It helps avoid the problem of combination abilities (SDAs that work as several epic feats, for example).
> 
> I wouldn't like a system that essentially changes the nature of 3E feats -- discrete abilities that don't (directly) scale with level and have a system of prerequisites.
> 
> I'm sure you've done a good job, from what you've shown us.  If there was anything I was worried about it would be the prerequisites (since you mentioned that you simplified them/reduced their number), but I have faith that you won't go overboard here.




Well the thing is, I don't like prerequisites for their own sake - I like prereqs to make sense. So I don't go overboard on them. There are a lot of abstract abilities in the IH which don't really require prereqs.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				Cheiromancer said:
			
		

> I had better post this here, then




Actually I was refering to Immortal/Epic stuff, not CR/EL stuff...everybody knows I'm already the boss of that. 

...and soon they'll know whos the boss of the other. 

So in future keep the CR/EL stuff in the other threads, thanks...though no harm done naturally. 



			
				Cheiromancer said:
			
		

> I had another insight about the fixed XP awards- and I think this is the last; XP is a multiple of the square of the CR.
> 
> Here's how I got it:
> 
> From the Challenge Challenge Ratings and Encountering Encounter Levels rules, the rule relating CR and EL can be obtained: doubling CR increases EL by +4.  We also get a rule for assigning xp: Increasing the EL by +4 quadruples XP.  Therefore doubling the CR of a creature quadruples the XP award for defeating it.
> 
> I had wondered what kind of function satisfied the relationship f(2x)=2f(x), but it suddenly occurred to me that the function had to be a quadratic function.
> 
> i.e.
> 
> XP = 75 x (CR x CR)
> 
> To avoid a proliferation of 5's, you might want to the nearest 100, at least after level 1.
> 
> Levels by xp is just the integral of 13.333 encounters per level, and so it has to be a cubic formula:
> 
> XP = 100 x (level x level x level)
> 
> Again, to simplify things you might want to round up to the nearest 1000.
> 
> This formula also holds for expected PC wealth.
> 
> ---
> 
> I think this is the simplest and most accurate implementation of the CR system in relation to XP.
> 
> I earnestly commend it to you for your consideration!




As you know I am all in favour of simplifying (especially epic/immortal) gaming. 

However, I am out of the loop too long to make snap judgements on such things.

I mean would the XP for monsters not be CR^3 x7.5 rather than CR^2 x75?


----------



## Cheiromancer

CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> That won't hold, in general, for *any* quadratic function:
> 
> (4ax^2+2bx+c) / (ax^2+bx+c) := 2
> 
> implies a=c=0, a linear function.




No I mean f(x) = ax^2

Then f(2x)= a(2x)^2=a*4*x^2=4ax^2=4f(x)



			
				Upper Krust said:
			
		

> I mean would the XP for monsters not be CR^3 x7.5 rather than CR^2 x75?




No.  Cuz then doubling the CR of a creature would increase the XP awarded by a multiple of 8.  But as it is, it is only a multiple of 4.  So the XP is proportionate to the square of the CR, not the cube.


----------



## Cheiromancer

oops.  I just noticed that you asked me to keep the response about CR/EL in the other threads.  Sorry.


----------



## S'mon

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> 1. Thor - determine Divine Status (ie. Intermediate God)
> 2. Roll Levels (I have a table for this; ie. Demigod = 30 + 1d10); I also have a table for split class levels.
> 3. Roll Ability scores
> 4. Apply Divinity Template
> 5. Apply Portfolio Templates
> 6. Determine Feats & Divine Abilities




This still sounds very similar to PC creation.

re #3 - some Default Arrays for deity-level characters (Quasi, demi, lesser etc) would be good, or preferably just the total number of derived bonuses to distribute between all stats so I don't have to worry about the primary stats - (see my attached Quick NPC System file, derived from an idea by Henry).  Eg "total bonus +60" could be 6 stats at +10 (ie stats of 30 or 31) or anything else that added up to 60.

Eg The 25-PB default array gives total bonuses of (+2 +2 +1 +1 -1 =)  +5, increasing to +6 at 4th level, +7 at 12th, +8 at 20th.  I normally use +6 at 1st-7th for Elites, +7 at 8th-15th, +8 at 16th-20th.  This makes NPC creation _much_ quicker.  

As it stands I'm worried the IH will be great for gearheads - those who enjoy spending hours tinkering with rules, creating NPCs and such - but of limited use in actual play with limited prep time, so the more you can do to streamline NPC creation the better IMO.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey S'mon! 



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> This still sounds very similar to PC creation.




Its difficult to deviate wildly from it without omiting something.



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> re #3 - some Default Arrays for deity-level characters (Quasi, demi, lesser etc) would be good, or preferably just the total number of derived bonuses to distribute between all stats so I don't have to worry about the primary stats -




That sounds fairly straightforward, I was considering giving a default total ability score number followed by an average.

eg. Elite Array = 72, average 12*

Demigod Array = 139, average 23-24*

If I add your idea...

Demigod Array = 139, average score 23-24*, total bonuses +39

*With a stipulation that no score should start at more than 150% the average (before feats/abilities/items of course). 

So if you were designing Hercules you would likely give him something like Str & Con 36, Dex & Cha 24; Int & Wis 12. Then perhaps give him a few Great Strength epic feats and the Legendary Strength Cosmic Ability to finish him with about Str 82. 



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> (see my attached Quick NPC System file, derived from an idea by Henry).  Eg "total bonus +60" could be 6 stats at +10 (ie stats of 30 or 31) or anything else that added up to 60.




Okay, thanks. 



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> Eg The 25-PB default array gives total bonuses of (+2 +2 +1 +1 -1 =)  +5, increasing to +6 at 4th level, +7 at 12th, +8 at 20th.  I normally use +6 at 1st-7th for Elites, +7 at 8th-15th, +8 at 16th-20th.  This makes NPC creation _much_ quicker.




I dunno, I sort of prefer my method of using the averages as a mean figure. It lets you visualise the actual attribute quicker.



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> As it stands I'm worried the IH will be great for gearheads -




I hope it will be for everyone. 



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> those who enjoy spending hours tinkering with rules, creating NPCs and such - but of limited use in actual play with limited prep time, so the more you can do to streamline NPC creation the better IMO.




Agreed. I suppose it really depends on how many examples I can squeeze in.

I am considering a setup akin to the DMG (and ELH) with sample deities. However, instead of 1/level/class there would be 1/divine status/primary class.

So people could just pick and choose some generic deities and all they would have to do would be to add the portfolios.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Chieromancer mate! 



			
				Cheiromancer said:
			
		

> oops.  I just noticed that you asked me to keep the response about CR/EL in the other threads.  Sorry.




Don't worry about it mate, it was my fault for initially messing up the formatting of my post.


----------



## S'mon

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I dunno, I sort of prefer my method of using the averages as a mean figure. It lets you visualise the actual attribute quicker.




In play though you don't need to actually know the attribute (unless you track encumbrance for demigods)   - only the derived stat bonuses.  If you know the stat bonuses and the BAB & Save formulae - good save (level/2)+2, bad saves level/3 - you can run NPCs on the fly without having to look up any tables.

Rem I'm looking at it from an active-GMing perspective rather than a design perspective, I need to have something I can use easily (& quickly) in Epic-level play; need for hours of prep time is the bane of 3e IMO.

I suggest something like the following for Epic NPCs:

Level  Total Bonuses Max Bonus (highest score)  Total Item Boosts (max)
21-23        +10          (+6)                                   +4 (+3)
24-27        +12          (+7)                                   +5 (+3)
28-31        +14          (+7)                                   +6  (+3) 
32-35        +16          (+8)                                   +7 (+4)
36-39        +18          (+8)                                   +8 (+5)

So a 25th level Fighter might have STR +7 (ie a 24-25) CON +4 DEX +1, with +5 boosts in items, say +3 STR bonus from a Girdle of +6 STR-stat and +2 CON bonus from Bracers of Health +4 CON-stat.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey S'mon! 



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> In play though you don't need to actually know the attribute (unless you track encumbrance for demigods)   - only the derived stat bonuses.  If you know the stat bonuses and the BAB & Save formulae - good save (level/2)+2, bad saves level/3 - you can run NPCs on the fly without having to look up any tables.
> 
> Rem I'm looking at it from an active-GMing perspective rather than a design perspective, I need to have something I can use easily (& quickly) in Epic-level play; need for hours of prep time is the bane of 3e IMO.
> 
> I suggest something like the following for Epic NPCs:
> 
> Level  Total Bonuses Max Bonus (highest score)  Total Item Boosts (max)
> 21-23        +10          (+6)                                   +4 (+3)
> 24-27        +12          (+7)                                   +5 (+3)
> 28-31        +14          (+7)                                   +6  (+3)
> 32-35        +16          (+8)                                   +7 (+4)
> 36-39        +18          (+8)                                   +8 (+5)
> 
> So a 25th level Fighter might have STR +7 (ie a 24-25) CON +4 DEX +1, with +5 boosts in items, say +3 STR bonus from a Girdle of +6 STR-stat and +2 CON bonus from Bracers of Health +4 CON-stat.




It should be simplicity itself for me to extend the table to encompass both ability scores AND ability score bonuses.


----------



## slingbld

*Web Site?*

So, UK when's your site going live?

Just wondering 

Slingbld~


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Slingbld mate! 



			
				slingbld said:
			
		

> So, UK when's your site going live?
> 
> Just wondering
> 
> Slingbld~




Well if everything goes to plan I'll have the domain name, webspace and so forth all sorted on Friday.

However I don't think I'll allow access until about a week after that until I get all the content on that I have planned at the start.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Hey Upper_Krust!

I know your wild & reckless days of visiting threads all across the boards are over, at least until you finish your book...


...but I thought you might be interested in a prestige class I wrote?

Transcendant Epic PrC

Good luck with the book (and site, of course)!


----------



## Upper_Krust

CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Hey Upper_Krust!




Hiya CRGreathouse mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I know your wild & reckless days of visiting threads all across the boards are over, at least until you finish your book...




Well I have been trying to limit all message board activity to about 2 hours/day total.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> ...but I thought you might be interested in a prestige class I wrote?
> 
> Transcendant Epic PrC




I'll be sure and have a look.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Good luck with the book (and site, of course)!




Thanks mate.


----------



## historian

Howdy Krust!  


I've got a few more questions for you in anticipation of the release of the IH.  I was going to see if you would estimate some challenge ratings for me.  I know that you may have answered some of these previously, but it has been awhile and I was hoping for a refresher.

Bane (FR lore)

Dracula

Odin (MU)

IG Thanos (I think you may have previously placed him at CR 13,000)

HOU Thanos (Previously placed at roughly 80 quindecillion I believe)

The Source (DC)


Thanks dude!


----------



## Upper_Krust

historian said:
			
		

> Howdy Krust!




Hey historian mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I've got a few more questions for you in anticipation of the release of the IH.  I was going to see if you would estimate some challenge ratings for me.  I know that you may have answered some of these previously, but it has been awhile and I was hoping for a refresher.




Sure, fire away, some of those have likely changed.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Bane (FR lore)




If I was creating his stats he would be about CR 170.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Dracula




Not sure, maybe I'll have a better idea after I see Van Helsing tomorrow night. 

At best hes maybe a Quasi-deity. CR 50 tops.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Odin (MU)




CR 199



			
				historian said:
			
		

> IG Thanos (I think you may have previously placed him at CR 13,000)




Something like CR 4000.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> HOU Thanos (Previously placed at roughly 80 quindecillion I believe)




Maybe infinite, maybe 8E24.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> The Source (DC)




Maybe infinite, maybe 8E24.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Thanks dude!




Anytime mate!


----------



## Knight Otu

Hey, UK!

I must admit that I'm pretty much out of the loop regarding your book.  More so due to my longish forced absence. How about a small overview of the current standings?


----------



## Yair

Knight Otu said:
			
		

> Hey, UK!
> 
> I must admit that I'm pretty much out of the loop regarding your book.  More so due to my longish forced absence. How about a small overview of the current standings?



It is very simple really: there is no site, nor book   
On the up side, UK *claims* he will have the site up and running in "about a week", and gave the names of some divine abilities some time before. So there is hope this isn't vaporware after all...

[yeah, I'm not UK, and shouldn't be answering this, but I've been waiting so long, I kinda frustrated at this point.    ]


----------



## Upper_Krust

Knight Otu said:
			
		

> Hey, UK!




Hi Knight Otu matey! 

I hope you have been keeping well.



			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> I must admit that I'm pretty much out of the loop regarding your book.  More so due to my longish forced absence. How about a small overview of the current standings?




I think I need a forced absence from everything to get this book done, seemingly I can barely string 2-3 hours together without some sort of real life 'thing' getting in the way. 

I remember reading comments by Monte Cook a while back where he said that writing requires a lot of concentration so its much more productive to work long stretches than an hour here, an hour there. That seems to be part of my problem at the moment, I don't seem to be able to set aside long stretches to really get things done.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Yair mate! 



			
				Yair said:
			
		

> It is very simple really: there is no site, nor book
> On the up side, UK *claims* he will have the site up and running in "about a week", and gave the names of some divine abilities some time before. So there is hope this isn't vaporware after all...
> 
> [yeah, I'm not UK, and shouldn't be answering this, but I've been waiting so long, I kinda frustrated at this point.    ]




I'm sure I am even more frustrated than you mate. I promise you its not vapourware.


----------



## Paragon

Yair said:
			
		

> [yeah, I'm not UK, and shouldn't be answering this, but I've been waiting so long, I kinda frustrated at this point.    ]




Look, there is no point to a post like this.  UK is working as hard as he can, he doesn't owe any of us anything.  pointless shots and guilt trips have no place or purpose.   it only serves to alienate people.

word


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Paragon mate! 



			
				Paragon said:
			
		

> Look, there is no point to a post like this.  UK is working as hard as he can, he doesn't owe any of us anything.  pointless shots and guilt trips have no place or purpose.   it only serves to alienate people.
> 
> word




I don't begrudge Yair for making those comments because I know in my heart I should have had the darn thing finished long ago. So if I'm disappointed with myself I can see how people could just as easily be disappointed with my procrastination. 

I've made a number of mistakes along the way but its something I'll learn from.

However, I appreciate the support as always.


----------



## Knight Otu

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I think I need a forced absence from everything to get this book done, seemingly I can barely string 2-3 hours together without some sort of real life 'thing' getting in the way.



You know, that reminds me of something I read on a differrent board... at that time, it sounded a bit silly...

Basically, somene mentioned that he would ask the mods to ban him for some time so he had that time for his work.

I really don't know if that is possible, or if it would help you, it is just something that crossed my mind when I read that. Of course, you are also around on the EZBoards, the WotC boards and a few others, so I guess it wouldn't have the desired effect anyway.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> You know, that reminds me of something I read on a differrent board... at that time, it sounded a bit silly...
> 
> Basically, somene mentioned that he would ask the mods to ban him for some time so he had that time for his work.
> 
> I really don't know if that is possible, or if it would help you, it is just something that crossed my mind when I read that. Of course, you are also around on the EZBoards, the WotC boards and a few others, so I guess it wouldn't have the desired effect anyway.




I don't think message boards have been that much of a distraction (now and again they are of course but not that often), its more 'real life' stuff that just seems to get in the way.


----------



## historian

Howdy Krust!

Thanks a ton for answering my earlier questions.  I should let you know that by no means am I a "roll player", but I am inclined to pontificate on comparitives (is x stronger than y and if so where - type questions) and I've never run across anyone who has as good a handle on questions of "scaling" as do you, particularly across genres, univserses, etc.  I appreciate your answering my periodic barrages.


On that note: 

CR 4000 for IG Thanos "feels" about right.  I am guessing this would put him on par with roughly 10-15,000 skyfathers at one time, all on their own turf?  I would pay mightily for a 'sneak peek' at the final write-up.

What did you think of Van Helsing (unfortunately I haven't had a chance to see)?

Is CR 50 about right for Drac?  How about Van Helsing himself?  Wolfman?


----------



## Upper_Krust

historian said:
			
		

> Howdy Krust!




Hiya mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Thanks a ton for answering my earlier questions.




Twas but a trifle. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I should let you know that by no means am I a "roll player", but I am inclined to pontificate on comparitives (is x stronger than y and if so where - type questions)




Me too I suppose. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> and I've never run across anyone who has as good a handle on questions of "scaling" as do you, particularly across genres, univserses, etc.  I appreciate your answering my periodic barrages.




Well at the risk of selling myself short if you apply a bit of basic logic its all fairly easy.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> On that note:
> 
> CR 4000 for IG Thanos "feels" about right.  I am guessing this would put him on par with roughly 10-15,000 skyfathers at one time, all on their own turf?




250 or so (at a glance) 

Although I doubt the Skyfathers could seriously do anything to threaten him - maybe if they applied all their power to an epic spell they might just injure him.

Also it would be (almost*) impossible to face multiple Skyfathers on their home planes simultaneously.

* 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I would pay mightily for a 'sneak peek' at the final write-up.




Of Thanos. Thats going to be one for the website at some point.

Though I will have Thanatos in the IH and I will also have something akin to the Infinity Gems. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> What did you think of Van Helsing (unfortunately I haven't had a chance to see)?




Disappointing. 

It had all the right ingredients; but it was far, FAR too over the top. Melodrama instead of drama.

I mean I really liked the Mummy and the Mummy Returns so I was especially looking forward to this effort from the same writer/director.

But it was just too 'wishy washy'. Far too light hearted. Dracula was just 'camp'. No one in the film seemed like a credible threat - I mean the bad guys must have had (literally) a dozen chances to easily kill the heroes, but then theres some contrived pause; escape; talking etc.

On the plus side there were some nice touches (mostly in the visuals department): Frankenstein; Werewolf and especially Dracula (in his demonic form) all looked great.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Is CR 50 about right for Drac?  How about Van Helsing himself?  Wolfman?




Dracula in the film was probably about CR 30 (including uber invulnerability* though). 

*I don't want to spoil things for people but he didn't have standard vampire vulnerabilities.

Van Helsing was probably something like 20th-level Ranger.

Frankensteins Monster could be handled like an intelligent Flesh Golem...in fact it looks like it was actually based on the Monster Manual Flesh Golem.

The Werewolf was pretty ferocious but pretty much standard.

Dracula's wives also seemed quite powerful/fast and of course could fly.


----------



## Anubis

I'm waiting for this thread to get moved to the Rules forum.  UK, when's the book getting published?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Anubis mate! 



			
				Anubis said:
			
		

> I'm waiting for this thread to get moved to the Rules forum.




I appreciate the support mate! 



			
				Anubis said:
			
		

> UK, when's the book getting published?




When its finished. 


By the way I finished the easier Deity design parameters.

So once you know the Divine Status you want.

eg. Demigod, etc.

1. Roll (once) to determine Hit Dice/Levels...or just take the average.
2. Roll (twice) to determine Class Level Breakdown (once for how many classes; once for how many primary classes).
3. Look at one table to see overall Ability Scores (Minimum/Average/Maximum) by Divine Status.
4. Look at another table to see individual Ability Scores by Class Levels. 

I also worked out loose stats for Thor and it turned out he could almost kill the WotC D&Dg (imposter) Thor with a single critical hit, even though they are both fairly similar in many areas.


----------



## blackshirt5

so, SERIOUSLY, when will it be done?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi blackshirt mate! 



			
				blackshirt5 said:
			
		

> so, SERIOUSLY, when will it be done?




Given that I have got burned everytime I resign myself to a date I think its probably best to keep my mouth shut until its done. I WOULD really like to get it finished before the end of this month though. Whether I will depends on real life interuptions though. Best case scenario I could have it done within 2 weeks, but thats optimistic even for an optimist like me.


----------



## CRGreathouse

First, it would be great if we had interesting questions for the Krust... somethiong better than, "When will it be done?".

Second, we know he doesn't like to be pinned down on dates.  Maybe we should just ask him for progress in terms of pages written (xxx/yyy) and pages typed (zzz/yyy)?
In any case, U_K, good luck finishing up the book.  I'm likely to pick up the Apotheosis PDF (at least) and I'll surely buy the print book.


----------



## Knight Otu

CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> First, it would be great if we had interesting questions for the Krust... somethiong better than, "When will it be done?".



Well, how about:
What about the Cosmocrats (I know you gave them a different name later on, but I don't seem to remember it)? 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Second, we know he doesn't like to be pinned down on dates. Maybe we should just ask him for progress in terms of pages written (xxx/yyy) and pages typed (zzz/yyy)?



That's pretty much how I intended my earlier question.


----------



## Anubis

Yeah, well, I hope he skips the PDFs and goes straight to print.  Anything else and he's being like old TSR trying to get payment multiple times for the same piece of work.  

So PLEASE go straight to print!  I don't wanna have to wait another six months to get the damn book!  I hate PDFs!


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey CRGreathouse mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> First, it would be great if we had interesting questions for the Krust... somethiong better than, "When will it be done?".




Well thats an interesting question, but its just been done to death.   



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Second, we know he doesn't like to be pinned down on dates.  Maybe we should just ask him for progress in terms of pages written (xxx/yyy) and pages typed (zzz/yyy)?




Difficult to say, its mostly just a lot of donkey work left. Theres a lot of pages that are typed up but need 'fixed' (for want of a better term). Theres also some of the definition explanations still to do.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> In any case, U_K, good luck finishing up the book.  I'm likely to pick up the Apotheosis PDF (at least) and I'll surely buy the print book.




I appreciate the support mate.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Knight Otu mate! 



			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> Well, how about:
> What about the Cosmocrats (I know you gave them a different name later on, but I don't seem to remember it)?




Well I wanted to have a near-omnipotent super monster relative to every dimension (I have the dimensions* mapped using the kabbalah). So I have a group of mega beings called the Chronocrators who police one of the dimensions.

*Dimensions are not the same as planes in case you were wondering.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Anubis matey! 



			
				Anubis said:
			
		

> Yeah, well, I hope he skips the PDFs and goes straight to print.  Anything else and he's being like old TSR trying to get payment multiple times for the same piece of work.
> 
> So PLEASE go straight to print!  I don't wanna have to wait another six months to get the damn book!  I hate PDFs!




Well I could just give away months of work for free...oh wait I already did that with the CR/EL system.

As for trying to get payment for the same work twice, no one is forcing you to buy anything? 

Not to mention they are probably going to be (pound for pound) the cheapest pdfs ever. 

Not to mention doing the pdfs is not actually slowing the print version.

Not to mention some people actually want the pdf and not the print version.

Not to mention I am broke - in fact I'll go one better I am actually in debt, I haven't been able to even afford printer ink for some months.

Not to mention if I actually don't make some money off this you can all kiss goodbye to any future stuff on detailing individually Pantheons; Immortal settings and the like.

So y'know, while I respect your opinion Anubis mate I'll be going ahead with the pdfs.


----------



## Anabstercorian

Upper Krust, I think you were about 12 or 20 times too polite.  I would have reamed him for that.


----------



## Anabstercorian

Anyhow, I pledge to buy the Immortal's Guide.


----------



## Nifelhein

If I recall correctly the pdfs are like partial publications of the work, thus he will be releasing something for us to hold our interest and anxiety while still developing he whole thing. While I prefer print books to any pdf I see the use and fairness of its existence, not to mention that pdfs are easier to get for me, pricewise and importing-wise.

Anyway, UK, I am still on lookout for this, specially if it will be useful outside of D&D 3.X edition, since I feel like no book has ever givent the subject a more general AND specific approach that are really standing.


----------



## BSF

Anubis said:
			
		

> Yeah, well, I hope he skips the PDFs and goes straight to print.  Anything else and he's being like old TSR trying to get payment multiple times for the same piece of work.
> 
> So PLEASE go straight to print!  I don't wanna have to wait another six months to get the damn book!  I hate PDFs!




You don't want to wait another 6 months?  Huh, I am guessing it would be a minimum of an additional 2 months just to get layout and formatting done from the printers.  Then you have to check that it is all good and the printer didn't goof anything too badly.  Submit any mistakes for correction, and repeat.  Of course, unless he is thinking of paying for printing, and handlig distribution entirely by himself, the actual publisher handle all of this.  However, that means that you can add in more time for paper shuffling and similar activities.  I think if he were finished tonight, it would be 2-3 months minimum before you saw any book on the shelves.  Quite likely, it would take longer.

I'm just basing that on the little bit I have picked up from Malhavoc Press' products.  By my understanding, Monte usually sends the finished product to Sword & Sorcery Studios at the same time he begins the PDF.  The PDF is usually available much sooner.  

So you hate PDF's?  *shrug*  That's your preference.  I happen to like them.  If the PDF's of the Immortal's Handbook were on RPGNow, I would buy them now.  Then, I would decide if I wanted to purchase the bound book later.  It might be nice to have it as a bound book and it might look nifty next to my other books.  

As for your comment that Upper_Krust is trying to milk you for money just like old TSR, that is certainly your opinion and you are welcome to it.  I respectfully disagree.  I am the only one that chooses how I spend my money.  If I want the Immortal's Handbook in a bound format, after purchasing the PDF's, then I will make that purchase.  If I don't want it, I won't.  I don't think Upper_Krust will have his feelings hurt if I only buy his product once.

Anyway, that is enough derailment.  

Upper_Krust, I am still anxiously awaiting the arrival of the PDF's.  In my cosmology, I have different Gods (no big surprise there).  I also have lesser powers that are not on the same level as the other gods.  Sometimes, these powers will choose to fall under the purview of one of the Gods and expect that god to represent their interests on an equal footing with the other gods.  I am sure I can easily model that with the Immortals Handbook, but do you have any quick thoughts on it? 

I am also putting together a god(dess) that manages legends and power.  This will be the basis for success for spells like Legend Lore and Vision.  As well, everyone that goes "Epic" must satisfy this god(dess) by performing a quest to prove their worth.  On the surface, this god(dess) sounds somewhat powerful.  But, in my cosmology, this is a relatively recent development.  I want this being to have dominion over legends and power, but still be subservient to the greater gods.  The greater gods kind of delegated this office to this being, but they can revoke it if this being handles it poorly.  Any suggestions on how I would implement that?

As always, Thanks!


----------



## BSF

Whoops!  A whole other page of posts/replies that I missed.  I will leave my post stand intact even though Upper_Krust has stated his position on it.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Anabstercorian mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> Upper Krust, I think you were about 12 or 20 times too polite.  I would have reamed him for that.




Well it would be self defeating to chastise Anubis for simply saying hes really looking forward to my book. Even if his manner in doing so was a touch abrasive.



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> Anyhow, I pledge to buy the Immortal's Guide.




I appreciate the support mate!


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Nifelhein matey! 



			
				Nifelhein said:
			
		

> If I recall correctly the pdfs are like partial publications of the work, thus he will be releasing something for us to hold our interest and anxiety while still developing he whole thing. While I prefer print books to any pdf I see the use and fairness of its existence, not to mention that pdfs are easier to get for me, pricewise and importing-wise.




Absolutely. Some people want the pdfs and some people want the print version.



			
				Nifelhein said:
			
		

> Anyway, UK, I am still on lookout for this, specially if it will be useful outside of D&D 3.X edition, since I feel like no book has ever givent the subject a more general AND specific approach that are really standing.




I am confident the worship points system could be used with any rpg.

Obviously most of the stuff is d20 orientated though.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey BardStephenFox mate! 



			
				BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> Upper_Krust, I am still anxiously awaiting the arrival of the PDF's.




Thanks mate. 



			
				BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> In my cosmology, I have different Gods (no big surprise there).  I also have lesser powers that are not on the same level as the other gods.  Sometimes, these powers will choose to fall under the purview of one of the Gods and expect that god to represent their interests on an equal footing with the other gods.  I am sure I can easily model that with the Immortals Handbook, but do you have any quick thoughts on it?




It seems to me you'll be wanting to create a Council of Gods. A Council is a political grouping of deities. (Whereas a Pantheon is a social grouping of deities*).

*There are a few other kinds as well of course. 



			
				BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> I am also putting together a god(dess) that manages legends and power.  This will be the basis for success for spells like Legend Lore and Vision.  As well, everyone that goes "Epic" must satisfy this god(dess) by performing a quest to prove their worth.  On the surface, this god(dess) sounds somewhat powerful.  But, in my cosmology, this is a relatively recent development.  I want this being to have dominion over legends and power, but still be subservient to the greater gods.  The greater gods kind of delegated this office to this being, but they can revoke it if this being handles it poorly.  Any suggestions on how I would implement that?




Sounds a great idea with a lot of potential...especially if the god(dess) goes mad. 

The way to handle this is easy (and already implemented). There is a Divine Ability ("Divine Champion") that allows deities to 'borrow' the Divine Abilities of other deities. So clearly in this case the Council members must have each voted to bestow a fraction of their power on this god(dess).

This actually happened in Hindu mythology (where I got the idea from) - but I'll expound on that another time. 



			
				BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> As always, Thanks!




Anytime mate. Hope the above ideas helped.


----------



## BSF

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hey BardStephenFox mate!
> 
> It seems to me you'll be wanting to create a Council of Gods. A Council is a political grouping of deities. (Whereas a Pantheon is a social grouping of deities*).
> 
> *There are a few other kinds as well of course.



Absolutely!  One of the reasons why I am excited about the Immortals Handbook is because I ended up creating a very politically driven Cosmology.  One of the most powerful gods, Pter the Protector (or Pter the Crusader), almost destroyed the prime material plane back near the "Beginning".  He was rather exuberant in his desire to stamp out Evil.  In the end, the other Gods ended up restraining Pter and a truce of sorts was worked out between Good and Evil.  Generally speaking, Divinities cannot stride the Prime Material plane.  Doing so risks breaking the Truce.  Most of the battle between Good and Evil is done through mortal agents.  

Of course, there are loopholes in the Truce.  Lune, the god that did most of the negotiating for Good is a Good Trickster god that holds dominion over much of Nature.  Mostly, many of the lesser nature Powers defer to him and channel some of their power directly to him to represent their interests.  Because of this, he can choose to send his Avatar to visit these Powers without breaking the Truce.  This gives Lune quite a bit of power actually.  But, the other gods don't call him the Eldest for nothing.  He is also called the Eternal.  There are stories that he watched when Tholnar (the Builder) became and started to create the world.  

Anyway, the politics works out to be interesting.  In my last campaign, the players eventually figured out that Lune, Tholnar and Belmay were up to something, but they were intentionally keeping Pter ignorant of their plans.  They seemed to feel that he would somehow mess it up.  It was fun as all heck for me to run because two of the PC's were followers of Pter, and a lot hinged on them.  

So, that is a very long way of saying that a Council of Gods sounds like it will work nicely.    (It is also a bit about my Cosmology.  I try not to get started, but you know how it goes.)



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Sounds a great idea with a lot of potential...especially if the god(dess) goes mad.
> 
> The way to handle this is easy (and already implemented). There is a Divine Ability ("Divine Champion") that allows deities to 'borrow' the Divine Abilities of other deities. So clearly in this case the Council members must have each voted to bestow a fraction of their power on this god(dess).
> 
> This actually happened in Hindu mythology (where I got the idea from) - but I'll expound on that another time.




Really, the whole thing with a being that holds dominion over Legends is one way for me to rationalize spells like Legend Lore working.  I am integrating these quests into my current game.  The PC's can choose not to do any of the quests, but they risk offending the God(dess) (I still haven't decided if it is Male, Female, both or neither).  In this case, they take an experience penalty.  Sounds harsh, I know.  But, there are benefits.  Namely, Divination type magic has much less of a chance of working on you.  

For me, this is interesting because it puts in place the possibility of an 11th level character that is "immune" to Legend Lore.  The character isn't a Legend and has avoided becoming one.  Sure, the character might not advance as quickly, but then again, it would be a perfect explanation for a high level rogue or assassin.

Anyway, I have been puzzling over the mechanics for how this being came to "be" and why it wasn't there in the last campaign.  My players would probably overlook it in the intervening 1000 years, but I like to have those explanations.    So, this sounds like an interesting way to implement it.  

Thanks!


----------



## Upper_Krust

Glad those ideas were of interest to you BardStephenFox mate! 

I thought some of you might be interested in this 'mythology heavy' issue of Thor...

http://milehighcomics.com/firstlook/marvel/thor/


----------



## CRGreathouse

Just a quick question to let you know we're still interested:

How powerful are the divinity templates (demi/lesser/intermediate/greater)?  I think you originally said Divine Rank 1 would be +22, so what would that make the full demideity template?


----------



## Alzrius

Hi U_K!

Given that we just got word that the SRD is set to be expanded on late 5/14 with new content, including divine rankings and powers (see this post), will this affect the IH any? I know it's seriously the eleventh hour for asking about updates/changes, but I know I wouldn't mind waiting a bit longer if it meant greater compatibility with existing D&D materials. _Deities and Demigods_ is still a better-than-average resource for detailing the exact powers and abilities of deities, and the more the IH can reference/borrow from it, the better I think it'll be.

That said, if it can't happen for the PDFs, will it at least use the SRD divine mechanics (to some degree) for the print version?


----------



## Ashardalon

Alzrius, don't say THAT! You'll delay the book even more!    



Ahem, seriously, as much as I am glad to see DDg finally in the SRD, I believe UK made it clear that he uses different methods now. What he could do, of course, is to release a web enhancement for what you want. It might end up in the print book this way, too.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi CRGreathouse mate! 

Sorry if there was any delay (?) I couldn't get on the boards earlier.   



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Just a quick question to let you know we're still interested:
> 
> How powerful are the divinity templates (demi/lesser/intermediate/greater)?




Very. 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I think you originally said Divine Rank 1 would be +22, so what would that make the full demideity template?




Well I think that was for WotCs Divine Rank 1 more likely.

Demi-deity Template will add approx. +30 CR

Greater Deity Template will add approx. +80 CR

I say approx. because thats without Portfolios.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Alzrius said:
			
		

> Hi U_K!




Hiya mate! 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Given that we just got word that the SRD is set to be expanded on late 5/14 with new content, including divine rankings and powers (see this post), will this affect the IH any?




Not really. Though I will add a paragraph clearly explaining how to use Divine Ranks with my system, which will take someone about 5 seconds to implement.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> I know it's seriously the eleventh hour for asking about updates/changes, but I know I wouldn't mind waiting a bit longer if it meant greater compatibility with existing D&D materials.




The IH is already fully compatible with D&Dg and the ELH.

In as far as D&Dg goes, there is minimal difference between it and the IH.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> _Deities and Demigods_ is still a better-than-average resource for detailing the exact powers and abilities of deities, and the more the IH can reference/borrow from it, the better I think it'll be.




When I get the website up I will post a list of SDAs from D&Dg I think are valid (some, like Alter Reality and Annihilating Strike, should not be used as Divine Abilities, but may work as Cosmic Abilities).



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> That said, if it can't happen for the PDFs, will it at least use the SRD divine mechanics (to some degree) for the print version?




Once people see the IH they will be able to judge for themselves which how flexible it is.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Ashardalon mate! 



			
				Ashardalon said:
			
		

> Alzrius, don't say THAT! You'll delay the book even more!




He he! 



			
				Ashardalon said:
			
		

> Ahem, seriously, as much as I am glad to see DDg finally in the SRD, I believe UK made it clear that he uses different methods now. What he could do, of course, is to release a web enhancement for what you want. It might end up in the print book this way, too.




Its compatible...you will see.


----------



## CRGreathouse

The +80 for the greater deity template stacks with the CR adjustments from the other templates, right?  A greater god would have CR = racial CR + class levels + demideity CR + ... + greater deity CR, right?

Have you posted an example of a Transcendent Gift yet?  How powerful are they, relative to Cosmic Gifts and Omnific Gifts?


----------



## historian

Howdy Krust!



> Well I wanted to have a near-omnipotent super monster relative to every dimension (I have the dimensions* mapped using the kabbalah). So I have a group of mega beings called the Chronocrators who police one of the dimensions.
> 
> *Dimensions are not the same as planes in case you were wondering.




This sounds particularly cool.  Do you envision the dimensions encompassing multiple realities?  How about the super monsters?

BTW - I like the name Thanatos - sounds Freudian.  

Take care.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi CRGreathouse mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> The +80 for the greater deity template stacks with the CR adjustments from the other templates, right?  A greater god would have CR = racial CR + class levels + demideity CR + ... + greater deity CR, right?




No. The Divinity Templates overlap each other. So when you go from Demigod to Lesser God you lose the Demi-deity Template and gain the Lesser Deity Template.

Of course everything in the previous template is included in the next template also, so theres no 'chopping and changing'.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Have you posted an example of a Transcendent Gift yet?




I think I mentioned one a while back called *Supremacy* which adds the power of any single opponent to your own. 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> How powerful are they, relative to Cosmic Gifts and Omnific Gifts?




Well to try and put things into perspective.

You'll find parallels between Divine Abilities and some monster abilities in the Monster Manual.

You'll find parallels between Cosmic Abilities and some monster abilities in the Epic Level Handbook (the Winter Wights permanent damage for example).

You may find one or two Transcendant abilities amongst the most powerful abilities wielded by the monsters in the ELH (the Colossus Anti-Magic Field being one example).

You won't find anything like the Omnific Abilities anywhere.

Duck and run for cover when you see the Metempiric Abilities.


----------



## Upper_Krust

historian said:
			
		

> Howdy Krust!




Hiya historian mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> This sounds particularly cool.




Hey thanks.  



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Do you envision the dimensions encompassing multiple realities?




Well there are your basic six dimensions (which are actually eight I suppose since one will have length; breadth and depth) and then there are three higher dimensions.

I don't really want to give anything away; but its sort of D&D Great Wheel cosmology meets the Kabbalah meets the Book of Enoch.

But don't worry, all your favourites will still be there. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> How about the super monsters?




They are fine thanks for asking. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> BTW - I like the name Thanatos - sounds Freudian.




Well its from Greek Mythology and refers to Death.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Take care.




You too mate.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> No. The Divinity Templates overlap each other. So when you go from Demigod to Lesser God you lose the Demi-deity Template and gain the Lesser Deity Template.
> 
> Of course everything in the previous template is included in the next template also, so theres no 'chopping and changing'.




So... something like this, maybe?  (You don't need to answer this one.)

Demi +30
Lesser +45?
Intermediate +60?
Greater +80



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I think I mentioned one a while back called *Supremacy* which adds the power of any single opponent to your own.




That's Transcendent?  I guess I was confused by the name change with Omnific...



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> You'll find parallels between Divine Abilities and some monster abilities in the Monster Manual.
> 
> You'll find parallels between Cosmic Abilities and some monster abilities in the Epic Level Handbook (the Winter Wights permanent damage for example).
> 
> You may find one or two Transcendant abilities amongst the most powerful abilities wielded by the monsters in the ELH (the Colossus Anti-Magic Field being one example).
> 
> You won't find anything like the Omnific Abilities anywhere.
> 
> Duck and run for cover when you see the Metempiric Abilities.




Hmm, this makes me wonder if I had the god breakdown correct.  I thought the system was:

Immortal/Divine God (demi-greater) --- Divine Gift
Sidereal/Cosmic God --- Cosmic Gift
Eternal/Time Lord --- Transcendent Gift (formerly Omnific Gift)
Supernal/Overgod --- Omnific Gift (formerly Metempiric Gift)

Where do Metempiric Gifts fit in now -- and what's wrong with my above listing?

What are the four Eternal templates called?  Who is John Galt?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi CRGreathouse matey! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> So... something like this, maybe?  (You don't need to answer this one.)
> 
> Demi +30
> Lesser +45?
> Intermediate +60?
> Greater +80




Lesser = CR +40.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> That's Transcendent?  I guess I was confused by the name change with Omnific...




Yeah I changed that a while back; I moved the 'Omnific' powers up because thats when the powers actually became 'omnific', you'll see. 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Hmm, this makes me wonder if I had the god breakdown correct.  I thought the system was:
> 
> Immortal/Divine God (demi-greater) --- Divine Gift
> Sidereal/Cosmic God --- Cosmic Gift
> Eternal/Time Lord --- Transcendent Gift (formerly Omnific Gift)
> Supernal/Overgod --- Omnific Gift (formerly Metempiric Gift)




Well Supernals are not Overgods (though I suppose anything above Immortal is technically an Overgod).

after Supernal there is...

Akashic Memory --- Metempiric Gift

Remember also that deities can take Gifts from the next highest level. So Immortals can take Cosmic Gifts etc.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Where do Metempiric Gifts fit in now -- and what's wrong with my above listing?




See above.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> What are the four Eternal templates called?




There are only two now.

4 Immortal
3 Sidereal
2 Eternal
1 Supernal

Previously I had ranks for the sake of ranks. Now they all specifically mean something.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Who is John Galt?




Why are you asking me?


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Well Supernals are not Overgods (though I suppose anything above Immortal is technically an Overgod).
> 
> after Supernal there is...
> 
> Akashic Memory --- Metempiric Gift




Akashic Memory?  Is this some sort of singular entity, or is this, somehow, a 'class' of beings?  



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> There are only two now.
> 
> 4 Immortal
> 3 Sidereal
> 2 Eternal
> 1 Supernal
> 
> Previously I had ranks for the sake of ranks. Now they all specifically mean something.




I'm glad to see that you've reduced the number of ranks.  What does that do for Sidereal?  Before you had Elder One, Old One, First One, and High One... did you drop one from this classification, or did you scrap your earlier work and come up with three new classes?



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Why are you asking me?




  It's just the classic unanswerable question (from Ayn Rand's _Atlas Shrugged_).  I asked it because I thought I was asking too many questions.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hello again mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Akashic Memory?  Is this some sort of singular entity, or is this, somehow, a 'class' of beings?




Its an energy source.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I'm glad to see that you've reduced the number of ranks.




Me too. 

Theres no point in having ranks for their own sake, each should mean something significant.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> What does that do for Sidereal?  Before you had Elder One, Old One, First One, and High One... did you drop one from this classification, or did you scrap your earlier work and come up with three new classes?




Well I dropped the High One, and gave more focus to the other three.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> It's just the classic unanswerable question (from Ayn Rand's _Atlas Shrugged_).  I asked it because I thought I was asking too many questions.




He he! Never mate, never.


----------



## CRGreathouse

An energy source...  Is it sentient?  Has it a form, physical or otherwise?

On a different, but related,topic:
When Andy revised the SRD, he updated three feats (meaningfully; many were changed for neatness) that were changed in the CW or MiniHB.

What do you think of these changes?  Epic Toughness changed from +20 hp to +30 hp; Armor Skin changed from +2 natural armor to +1 natural armor; Spellcasting Harrier changed from "casters take a penalty on Concentration checks" to "casters provoke automatically; you get +4 to hit".

Personally, I liked the Epic Toughess change but hate the other two.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> An energy source...  Is it sentient?  Has it a form, physical or otherwise?




Its semi-sentient.

Lets just say its the WAY, but not the WILL. 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> On a different, but related,topic:
> When Andy revised the SRD, he updated three feats (meaningfully; many were changed for neatness) that were changed in the CW or MiniHB.
> 
> What do you think of these changes?  Epic Toughness changed from +20 hp to +30 hp;




Seems fair I suppose. Toughness (in general) would work a lot better if they made it +1 hp/level though.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Armor Skin changed from +2 natural armor to +1 natural armor;




Well thats just a mistake (as my CR system proves). 

However, unless the character actually takes on the semblance of having tougher skin they should never be allowed this ability as it undermines what 'natural armour ' actually means.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Spellcasting Harrier changed from "casters take a penalty on Concentration checks" to "casters provoke automatically; you get +4 to hit".




Not sure about that one to be honest.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Personally, I liked the Epic Toughess change but hate the other two.




I could live without them all. However, they were not the most alarming feats in the book.

Damage Reduction; Multispell and Improved Metamagic are most likely to lead to abuse.

You could probably get away with Damage Reduction provided you make DR supernatural.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Damage Reduction; Multispell and Improved Metamagic are most likely to lead to abuse.
> 
> You could probably get away with Damage Reduction provided you make DR supernatural.




I ran a 40th level character once (just to test the system), a Ftr10/Dwarven Defender30.  His damage reduction, between class and feats, was very high -- but it didn't matter very much, as it was still just a small fraction of the total damage he was taking.

Multispell is good, but without the feat-intensive Automatic Quicken Spell, it's hard to make it useful.  Improved Metamagic is most certainly abusable, though; how would you prefer to see it changed?

As for Armor Skin, I think it's good at +2.   You seem to think it's not good enough at +2.  What value do you think is fair?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi CRGreathouse mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I ran a 40th level character once (just to test the system), a Ftr10/Dwarven Defender30.  His damage reduction, between class and feats, was very high -- but it didn't matter very much, as it was still just a small fraction of the total damage he was taking.




That would give him DR 21/- before any feats. If he takes the Damage Reduction feat 3 times thats DR 30/-.

Looking at the NPCs in the ELH theres not one that deals 30 damage with a single hit. Obviously most PCs will, but only just about. Many monsters in the ELH don't even deal 30 points of damage.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Multispell is good, but without the feat-intensive Automatic Quicken Spell, it's hard to make it useful.




Quickened Greater Teleport (IN)
Quickened Meteor Swarm
Quickened Greater Teleport (OUT)



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Improved Metamagic is most certainly abusable, though; how would you prefer to see it changed?




Ignore altogether most probably.

I dunno, maybe it would work, its been a while since I tested all the feats and I remember that was one of the problem ones.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> As for Armor Skin, I think it's good at +2.   You seem to think it's not good enough at +2.  What value do you think is fair?




I think +2 is fair.

I just don't think PCs should be able to gain natural armour without their skin becoming 'naturally armoured'.


----------



## Knight Otu

Hey, UK!

You know, the way you describe the Akashic Memory, it reminds me a bit of the matter springs from the Perry Rhodan universe.



			
				me said:
			
		

> The Perry Rhodan cosmology mostly consists of the struggle between the Powers of Order and Chaos. The most powerful entities known of each side are the Cosmocrats and the Chaotarchs.
> Their genesis is outlined below, using the so-called onion layer model.
> The onion-layer model is a model of the evolution of intelligence in the Perry-Rhodan-universe. Thinking about an onion, the innermost layers represent the primordial matter. Nearer to the first layer, there come primitive life forms, such as bacteria, then animals and then intelligent races that have not yet left their home planet. Interplanetar space travel is the next step, then interstellar, and up to intergalactic space travel. Interuniversal travel is rare. The next step is becoming a super-intelligence.
> 
> A super-intelligence is often a bodyless being of pure thought that is created from the minds of whole races, controlling several galaxies. These galaxies form the power center(translation?) of the super-intelligence. The primary measure for the power of a super-intelligence, however, is the amount of knowledge and wisdom it has achieved. This allows them to extrapolate current events to almost accurately predict the future.
> 
> Super-intelligences are classified as being either positive or negative. This has nothing to do with good or evil, however: Positive super-intelligences form almost symbiotic relationships with the races in their power center, while negative super-intelligences exploit them in a parasitic manner. Ultimately, a super-intellience is drawn to the next layer of the onion. They concentrate the galaxies of their power center into a small spot and merge with them into a matter spring if they are positive, or a matter sink if they are negative.
> 
> ...
> 
> The niveau of matter spring/matter sink is the highest niveau of intelligence that is known in the universe (Cosmocrats and Chaotarch are entities of the multiverse), created in a process similar to the creation of a Black Hole. Few things are known about the workings of these entities. The matter springs create matter with unknown means and "spread it out" in the universe, while the matter sinks are purely destructive: They do not return anything to the universe.
> 
> After an unknown span of time, the Matter Springs evolve into beings that, lacking a better word, are called Cosmocrats, while the Matter Sinks evolve into Chaotarchs.
> 
> AFAIK, only one Matter Sink and one Matter Spring are commonly known, JARMINTHARA, the Matter Sink, and GOURDEL, the Matter Spring. Both of them can be found in the galaxy Erranternohre, where they have gone due to commands from their respective sides during a battle between Order and Chaos in a nearby galaxy about 3 million years ago.
> 
> ...
> 
> Cosmocrats and Chaotarchs are the most powerful known entities of their respective side, as I have already said. Cosmocrats are said to live "beyond the Matter Springs", whatever this may mean. Their mentality and their goals are virtually inscrutable to mortals, except that they try to influence the Moral Code (which can be said to be some kind of genetic code of the Multiverse), just like their counterparts do. The Cosmocrats apparently strive to achieve some kind of Order and keep it up for all time, while the Chaotarchs want to spread Chaos.
> 
> Both Cosmocrats and Chaotarchs act mostly through servants, though on rare occasions, one does manifest it's will within a universe. Known Cosmocratic
> servants are the Knights of the Deep, the Servants of Matter, the Seven Mighty Ones with their Spore Ships and the Swarms.
> Few Chaotarchic servants are known. The known ones are the Architects, the enigmatic Dark Birthes and the now-destroyed Decalog of Elements, which had it's home in the so-called Negasphere, a place that was in a constant state of "decay" due to a manipulation of the Moral Code.



He, its been so long since I wrote that up.  


You know, I could have sworn that Improved Multispell had been changed in the revised rules, but it seems to be still the same in the SRD...


----------



## Alzrius

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Quickened Greater Teleport (IN)
> Quickened Meteor Swarm
> Quickened Greater Teleport (OUT)




There's still a limit to one free (in this case, quickened) action per round. So this couldn't ever happen.


----------



## Knight Otu

Alzrius said:
			
		

> There's still a limit to one free (in this case, quickened) action per round. So this couldn't ever happen.



Unless you're using Multispell, which was actually the base of this tactic. 

MULTISPELL [EPIC]
*Prerequisites:* Quicken Spell, ability to cast 9th-level arcane or divine spells. 
*Benefit:* The character may cast one additional quickened spell in a round. 
*Special:* A character can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects stack.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Quickened Greater Teleport (IN)
> Quickened Meteor Swarm
> Quickened Greater Teleport (OUT).




2 11th-level spells, 1 13th-level spell.  This would take Quicken Spell, Improved Spellcasting (4), Multispell (2), and Int/Cha 32+ to pull off once/day -- unless you burn your 3 highest-level slots (QGT in a  12th level slot).  Minimum level 29 (or more; I'd have to check the prerequisites).

It's just an extention of an existing problem (scry/buff/teleport), only a little harder to resist.  Plus, at level 29, what can a single meteor swarm do?


----------



## Sledge

Actually Take Auto-Quicken a few times and you save one feat requirement and a lot of Int/Cha requirement.  Minimum lvl 27 iirc.
(BTW there is no set limit to free actions per turn.  Quickened spells are limited but free actions are still at the DM's discretion.)


----------



## CRGreathouse

Sledge said:
			
		

> Actually Take Auto-Quicken a few times and you save one feat requirement and a lot of Int/Cha requirement.  Minimum lvl 27 iirc.
> (BTW there is no set limit to free actions per turn.  Quickened spells are limited but free actions are still at the DM's discretion.)




Yes, but it would take longer to get -- you can't auto-quicken a meteor swarm on 29th level yet.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey all! 

For what its worth I don't see myself changing any of the feats (maybe just Improved Metamagic).

Also thanks for posting the Perry Rhodan information Knight Otu mate. I love some of the names used. I think translating from other languages always makes for more unique sounding titles.


----------



## Knight Otu

Always a pleasure, UK.

I know it's hard to tell with so limited information, but do you think there are some similarities between matter springs (and possibly sinks) and the Akashic Memory?

And, is it *the* Akashic Memory, or *an*  Akashic Memory?


----------



## CRGreathouse

Time for more wizard-wheedling, I suppose.

UK, (insert innocent-looking smiling face here), there isn't any chance of you explaining anything about Sidereals, is there?  What role they play in the 'grand scheme of things', their CR modifiers, or even the reasoning behind your choice for their name?  AFAIK, it's essentially a synonym for 'stellar' -- why use it for the class name for the group after Immortals, etc.

Or, failing that... any news about the typing or website?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Knight Otu said:
			
		

> Always a pleasure, UK.




Hi Knight Otu mate! 



			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> I know it's hard to tell with so limited information, but do you think there are some similarities between matter springs (and possibly sinks) and the Akashic Memory?




No. They seem more like Sidereals.



			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> And, is it *the* Akashic Memory, or *an*  Akashic Memory?




Its THE Akashic Memory.


----------



## Upper_Krust

CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Time for more wizard-wheedling, I suppose.




He he! 

Hi CRGreathouse matey! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> UK, (insert innocent-looking smiling face here), there isn't any chance of you explaining anything about Sidereals, is there?




Theres a chance, but it isn't a very good chance. 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> What role they play in the 'grand scheme of things', their CR modifiers,




I sort of want to keep those things secret for now. Sorry.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> or even the reasoning behind your choice for their name?  AFAIK, it's essentially a synonym for 'stellar' -- why use it for the class name for the group after Immortals, etc.




Well Sidereals means 'of the stars' so I thought it was perfect for gods who are no longer really interested in Terrestrial matters.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Or, failing that... any news about the typing or website?




I'll have an announcement about both at the start of next week...the typing won't be completely finished at that point but it will be within touching distance and I'll give a page count and rundown.


----------



## Knight Otu

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> No. They seem more like Sidereals.



That's a certainly enlightening answer. 
Seriously, that is interesting, especially with the answers you've given CRGreathouse. I wonder if the comparison woud hold true regarding "power" levels.



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Its THE Akashic Memory.



I guess then it is the answer to the Third Ultimate Question ("Who initiated the LAW, and what does it do?")


----------



## CRGreathouse

OK, so anything from the other end of the spectrum?  You originally had an order between mortals and immoirtals, either paramortals or metamortals, which included hero-deities and quasi-deities.  What is the current name? How many ranks are there (and what are they... prophet/*can't remember*/hero/quasi was the original order), since the number of ranks changed for most of the other orders?

How powerful (  ) are hero-deities vs. quasi-deities, and which more closely resembles WotC's Divine Rank 0?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi CRGreathouse mate! 

...and hello Knight Otu matey. 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> OK, so anything from the other end of the spectrum?  You originally had an order between mortals and immoirtals, either paramortals or metamortals, which included hero-deities and quasi-deities.  What is the current name?




To me, a Metamortal is more specifically an epic character. 

Another problem is that Hero and Quasi-deities are partially 'immortal'...in that they can't die of old age.

So really Disciple and Prophet should be under *Proxies* and Hero and Quasi-deities should be under *Immortals*.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> How many ranks are there (and what are they... prophet/*can't remember*/hero/quasi was the original order), since the number of ranks changed for most of the other orders?




Disciple. ie. 'Chosen of'
Prophet. ie. 'Champion of'
Hero-deity
Quasi-deity



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> How powerful (  ) are hero-deities vs. quasi-deities,




Cheeky. 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> and which more closely resembles WotC's Divine Rank 0?




Quasi-deities.


----------



## Anabstercorian

Forgive me if you're already answered this...  Have you looked at Sepulchrave's Story Hour, and do you think your product would be useful for a game of that quality?


----------



## Knight Otu

This may have been asked before, but:

When a god becomes more and more powerful, does it become harder for him to think and act on a small scale? Could such a deity choose to reduce itself in power for some time with special preparation to act on a small scale?

Let's say an earth god wants to create several mountains on various places on a single plane. Time is not a factor. There seem to be two basic ways to do that

Create each of these mountains one by one.
Permanently change the current "rules" of mountain "growth" - plate tectonics, for example.
I'd assume that the second way is only available to higher-ranked gods, while the first could be used by most gods. Would there be a point at which it would be easier for the god to change the rules instead of creating the mountains?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Anabstercorian mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> Forgive me if you're already answered this...  Have you looked at Sepulchrave's Story Hour, and do you think your product would be useful for a game of that quality?




I have to be honest I haven't read any story hours in a few months. Can you give me a basic overview of Sepulchraves campaign? (I had a quick look in the thread there, but its going to take me about a week to read through enough to get the gist of it).


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> This may have been asked before, but:
> 
> When a god becomes more and more powerful, does it become harder for him to think and act on a small scale?




Generally yes. The more powerful the more your actions tend to affect a greater number of people.



			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> Could such a deity choose to reduce itself in power for some time with special preparation to act on a small scale?




Yes, in fact I actually have a Cosmic Ability that works somewhat along those lines. 



			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> Let's say an earth god wants to create several mountains on various places on a single plane. Time is not a factor. There seem to be two basic ways to do that
> 
> Create each of these mountains one by one.
> Permanently change the current "rules" of mountain "growth" - plate tectonics, for example.
> I'd assume that the second way is only available to higher-ranked gods, while the first could be used by most gods. Would there be a point at which it would be easier for the god to change the rules instead of creating the mountains?




For most the former would be the more likely, even Earth Gods, although it would be much easier for them to achieve it. Whichever way you are doing it, its still magic.


----------



## RandallFlagg

Hey UK!  

I was wondering a couple of things. Ok, in terms of power what do you think the following entities would be...

-Controller of Time (or a guardian of it)
-An alignment (such as Law, or Chaos, or Neutrality)
-Fate
-Dreams 

Where do you think they would stand in terms of power. 

Also, while im thinking about it, what power level do you think that the 4 Horsemen of the Apocalypse are on? Demigod? Greater God? Higher? 

And finally, I know that gods represent aspects of life and creation (such as a God of Murder, or a God of Strife, or Nature, War, etc.), but is there gods that ARE those things (if that makes sense...)? 

Thanks


----------



## Upper_Krust

RandallFlagg said:
			
		

> Hey UK!




Hi RandallFlagg mate! 



			
				RandallFlagg said:
			
		

> I was wondering a couple of things. Ok, in terms of power what do you think the following entities would be...




Fire away.



			
				RandallFlagg said:
			
		

> -Controller of Time (or a guardian of it)




First One (Father Time, aka Zurvan Akurana, aka Janus)



			
				RandallFlagg said:
			
		

> -An alignment (such as Law, or Chaos, or Neutrality)




Old One (specific alignment), First One (general alignment - eg. Zurvan is also Law, but hes not representative of Lawful Neutral...if that makes sense). 



			
				RandallFlagg said:
			
		

> -Fate




First One (Aditi)



			
				RandallFlagg said:
			
		

> -Dreams




Anything up to Elder One.



			
				RandallFlagg said:
			
		

> Where do you think they would stand in terms of power.




See above.



			
				RandallFlagg said:
			
		

> Also, while im thinking about it, what power level do you think that the 4 Horsemen of the Apocalypse are on? Demigod? Greater God? Higher?




Well I am doing the Four Horsemen in the Bestiary section, so you will have to wait for that to find out.  



			
				RandallFlagg said:
			
		

> And finally, I know that gods represent aspects of life and creation (such as a God of Murder, or a God of Strife, or Nature, War, etc.), but is there gods that ARE those things (if that makes sense...)?




Well its variable depending on the aspect. I explain it all in the IH. Typically 'individuals' max out at Greater Power...hows that for cryptic. 



			
				RandallFlagg said:
			
		

> Thanks




Anytime mate.


----------



## RandallFlagg

Hi again Krust!  

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions. I intend on buying your book when it is released (in print format). 

If you dont mind, I have a couple more questions....(you knew it was inevitable...  )

-Do you write up your gods/entities with outsider HD and Class levels ala D&Dg or with straight class levels?

-Do you have any undead gods?

-What is the average HD for one of your Greater Powers?

-I know youve said before that you dont use the Divine Rank system, so I was wondering how you came up with the amount of Salient Abilities Gods receive?

-And lastly, do you have any bada$$ lycanthropes in the IH?

I understand if you cant answer some (or all) of these, but figured I would ask anyways. Thanks again UK. Im totally looking forward to it. 

By the way, do you have ANY idea when the print version _could_ be released? My b-day is June 11...


----------



## CRGreathouse

RandallFlagg said:
			
		

> By the way, do you have ANY idea when the print version _could_ be released? My b-day is June 11...




I'm sure that it* won't be done by this coming June.  I'd love for it to be out by my birthday in late October, but that's a slim chance I think.

There's a lot to be done with a print book; I'd expect 3-6 months from the time U_K hands the publisher the finished copy.


* The print version, that is; the PDF will hopefully done that month.  And by hopefully, I mean just that: there are many things that could delay the PDF to July or beyond.


----------



## Upper_Krust

RandallFlagg said:
			
		

> Hi again Krust!




Hiya mate! 



			
				RandallFlagg said:
			
		

> Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions.




My pleasure.



			
				RandallFlagg said:
			
		

> I intend on buying your book when it is released (in print format).




Hey thanks.



			
				RandallFlagg said:
			
		

> If you dont mind, I have a couple more questions....(you knew it was inevitable...  )




He he! 



			
				RandallFlagg said:
			
		

> -Do you write up your gods/entities with outsider HD and Class levels ala D&Dg or with straight class levels?




Its possible to have both, however generally immortals have one or the other (eg. Thor would just have class levels, whereas Orcus would just have HD*)

*with integrated spellcasting levels.



			
				RandallFlagg said:
			
		

> -Do you have any undead gods?




The book caters for undead deities, but thinking about it, none of the core examples* I have are undead.

*Which are all taken from mythology - with a few twists.  

I do have some very powerful undead in the Bestiary though. 



			
				RandallFlagg said:
			
		

> -What is the average HD for one of your Greater Powers?




Average levels are about 100 for Skyfathers.



			
				RandallFlagg said:
			
		

> -I know youve said before that you dont use the Divine Rank system, so I was wondering how you came up with the amount of Salient Abilities Gods receive?




Well, when I created the Divinity Templates I wanted something quick and simple, but flexible enough so that it scaled infinitely. So I had a rough idea how I wanted things to scale (on average) and I knew I wanted things to roughly parallel Deities & Demigods in terms of power (so as not to make that book redundant).



			
				RandallFlagg said:
			
		

> -And lastly, do you have any bada$$ lycanthropes in the IH?




One of the (nine) iconics I am working on is a centaur lycanthrope.



			
				RandallFlagg said:
			
		

> I understand if you cant answer some (or all) of these, but figured I would ask anyways. Thanks again UK. Im totally looking forward to it.




Appreciate the support mate.



			
				RandallFlagg said:
			
		

> By the way, do you have ANY idea when the print version _could_ be released? My b-day is June 11...




I'll be happy if I get the first pdf out by then.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi CRGreathouse mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I'm sure that it* won't be done by this coming June.  I'd love for it to be out by my birthday in late October, but that's a slim chance I think.




Well sometimes miracles do happen. 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> There's a lot to be done with a print book; I'd expect 3-6 months from the time U_K hands the publisher the finished copy.




I would hope it would be the short end of that given as how much I'll have already done.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> * The print version, that is; the PDF will hopefully done that month.  And by hopefully, I mean just that: there are many things that could delay the PDF to July or beyond.




I hope not.


----------



## historian

Howdy Krust!



> One of the (nine) iconics I am working on is a centaur lycanthrope.




Sweet - I'm wondering how this idea developed.

In reading your dialogue w/RandallFlagg, I couldn't help but wonder what the names for the two eternal templates might be - I suspect one will be 'Time Lord', but the other . . . .   




> Average levels are about 100 for Skyfathers.




 That's about what I would've guessed, thanks for the info.  Can you expand on this for the sidereals?  

Off topic (well, not really) I read something recently that you might find interesting if you have spare time (which I doubt you have much).  It's "The Mystery of the Aleph" by Amir D. Aczel, and it fleshes out some of the more important mathematical/historical notions of infinity.


----------



## Verequus

Hi U_K!

Long time no see!



> One of the (nine) iconics I am working on is a centaur lycanthrope.



A centaur lycanthrope? A werecentaur? Weird - but I had already the idea of a char, which could change free between human and centaur shape. 

To the time control being and the divine ranks: The tidbits of information helped me in a story I develop in my free time. Do you remember, that I said that your book is good enough to be one of those which will replace for me the official counterpart? Damn, I was wrong! I have to up my expectations by at least 100% - so it replaces two official counterparts! Ehm... something wrong now...


----------



## RandallFlagg

Howdy Krust!  

Appreciate the answers. A Centaur lycanthrope....that's different. By that do you mean a Centaur with lycanthrope? Or like a human who becomes a centaur in the full moon...im assuming the former, but you know where assuming gets you...

Alright, I have a question for you not pertaining _exactly_ to the book per se: We all know that Gods and similar power level beings use all kinds of agents to get the affairs done and do their fighting for them, such as human heros, proxies, celestial armies, demon/devil armies, etc, etc. But what could drive two beings of that kind of power into direct personal combat? What kind of situation would warrent them battling another God directly, especially when they have all the above and more at their desposal?

Thanks again dude!


----------



## Upper_Krust

historian said:
			
		

> Howdy Krust!




Hey historian mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Sweet - I'm wondering how this idea developed.




Well I vaguely remember seeing a werewolf centaur in some anime show years ago...though I can't for the life of me remember what show it was.

Anyway, that was the seed for that idea.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> In reading your dialogue w/RandallFlagg, I couldn't help but wonder what the names for the two eternal templates might be - I suspect one will be 'Time Lord', but the other . . . .




Yes, one is Time Lord and the other (though no great secret) will remain under wraps for now. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> That's about what I would've guessed, thanks for the info.  Can you expand on this for the sidereals?




Cheeky! 

I could, but I am not going to. Suffice to say an Old One could take on a whole Pantheon...hows that. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Off topic (well, not really) I read something recently that you might find interesting if you have spare time (which I doubt you have much).




You know me well. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> It's "The Mystery of the Aleph" by Amir D. Aczel, and it fleshes out some of the more important mathematical/historical notions of infinity.




Sounds interesting. I'll see if our library has it (or can get it) next time I am there.

A few weeks ago I got into an online argument about infinity and how it was an irrelevant and impractical concept. So it would be interesting to hear what Aczel has to say on the matter.


----------



## Upper_Krust

RuleMaster said:
			
		

> Hi U_K!
> 
> Long time no see!




Hey Rulemaster matey! 

I hope you have been keeping well!? 



			
				RuleMaster said:
			
		

> A centaur lycanthrope? A werecentaur? Weird - but I had already the idea of a char, which could change free between human and centaur shape.




Hes not a were-centaur. Hes a centaur that takes on lycanthrope characteristics. 



			
				RuleMaster said:
			
		

> To the time control being and the divine ranks: The tidbits of information helped me in a story I develop in my free time.




Glad I could help.



			
				RuleMaster said:
			
		

> Do you remember, that I said that your book is good enough to be one of those which will replace for me the official counterpart?




Well I know it will, but I guess I still have to prove it - won't be long now though.



			
				RuleMaster said:
			
		

> Damn, I was wrong! I have to up my expectations by at least 100% - so it replaces two official counterparts! Ehm... something wrong now...




He he!


----------



## Upper_Krust

RandallFlagg said:
			
		

> Howdy Krust!




Hiya mate! 



			
				RandallFlagg said:
			
		

> Appreciate the answers.




Anytime, you know that.



			
				RandallFlagg said:
			
		

> A Centaur lycanthrope....that's different. By that do you mean a Centaur with lycanthrope? Or like a human who becomes a centaur in the full moon...im assuming the former, but you know where assuming gets you...




The former.



			
				RandallFlagg said:
			
		

> Alright, I have a question for you not pertaining _exactly_ to the book per se: We all know that Gods and similar power level beings use all kinds of agents to get the affairs done and do their fighting for them, such as human heros, proxies, celestial armies, demon/devil armies, etc, etc. But what could drive two beings of that kind of power into direct personal combat? What kind of situation would warrent them battling another God directly, especially when they have all the above and more at their desposal?
> 
> Thanks again dude!




Well, direct confrontations can occur between deities with a history of enmity usually when one of two things occurs.

1) One of the sides believes they have a distinct advantage over their enemy.
2) One of the sides believes their enemy is about to gain a distinct advantage.

As an example I will relate something that happened in our campaign.

In the aftermath of Doomstars initial show of force, the Babylonian deity Anu had been destroyed. This meant that in the largest Empire (on S'mons home brew world), the devil god Druaga (as the next most powerful religion in the empire) was about to gain a significant influx of power.

Not only would this shortly raise Druaga to Greater God (this was 1st Ed. remember, so no Intermediate status), but he would almost certainly set the Empire directly against the Kingdom of Thrinia - the greatest concentration of my characters worship.

I weighed up my options and decided I had to act. In previous skirmishes between the two deities, Druaga had always shown to have the slight edge over my character in combat*, I also knew he would have a number of devils with him, so I contacted a Solar ally I had helped in the past and convinced him to help.

*Note that this was a slightly tougher Druaga than the one in 1st Ed. D&Dg.

Anyway, we struck deep in the heart of the Great Fane of Druaga under the empires capital city. We couldn't teleport into the Great Fane because it was protected, so we had to start at the perimeter and work our way in. Initial resistance was obviously ill-prepared and ill-equipped to do anything more than die quickly, as we neared the great hall, resistance had peeled off. At the doors to the great hall I disintigrated the wall nearest the door just incase they had booby trapped the doors. We flew in and there was Druaga with pretty much all his High Priests, 20 Pit Fiends and 20 Ice Devils and numerous lesser guards and devils. The forces initially tried to swamp us. However Thrin was killing six or more pit fiends per round so they weren't going to last long. Multiple Dispel Magics hit Thrin and were absorbed by his Ioun Stone. Druaga entered the fray. Both gods were combat heavy deities (in fact after Surtur probably the two most powerful Lesser Deities in existence). So it was Thrin vs. Druaga (who also still had multiple Pit Fiends aiding him). Both of us had a full compliment of buffs/protections. It really came down to initiative and who got the critical hits in*. I anticipated I would kill Druaga in 9/12 hits and he would kill me in 6/8 hits (7 if I had been at full health, but occasionally the Pit fiends had sneaked a hit or two in). Both of us had double attacks for being hasted.

*In our 1st Ed. game a natural 18-20 signified a critical hit of some description (Natural 20 was double maximum).

As I recall Thrin shaded initiative, which meant he got 1/4 of his attacks first, then each in turn got 1/4 of their attacks. Thrin then proceeded to reduce Druagas number of limbs thanks to sharpness. Unfortunately Druaga had limbs enough to spare. I think Druaga scored a single critical hit to Thrins two.

The Solar (Al-Kamerion) had been destroyed by the remaining devils, but he had held them off long enough for Thrin to get the job done. Unfortunately some of the Pit Fiends folled his silver cord back to the Seven Heavens and permanently killed him.

Just as Thrin followed Druagas silver cord back (equivalent to an unseen teleport), Thrin had a 50% chance of being destroyed upon arrival.

However, the gods of luck were with me again and I successfully arrived to greet the helpless spirit of Druaga - who began to squeal like a pig for his very existence. Alas, to no avail. Thrin finished off the devil god, and returned to Asgard. 

Thrin requested that Odin use Hlidskialf, the all-seeing throne to locate the reincarnated spirit of Druaga, before it reached maturity. Fortunately, Odin trumped Druaga and so we were able to find it and finish off the beast at long last.

Thrin then returned to the Great Fane and set about the remaining occupants with the proverbial 'pair of pliers and a blow torch'.

...okay I seem to have got distracted there, hope you all don't mind.


----------



## historian

Howdy Krust!



> Yes, one is Time Lord and the other (though no great secret) will remain under wraps for now.




If the “other” template begins with a “D” then I think I know what you’re talking about.  Otherwise, I’ll just have to do some scrying.  



> Cheeky!
> 
> I could, but I am not going to.




Sounds like something one of my law professors would have said.  



> Suffice to say an Old One could take on a whole Pantheon...hows that.




(historian in background referring to v4 . . . . ) a ha!  



> Sounds interesting. I'll see if our library has it (or can get it) next time I am there.
> 
> A few weeks ago I got into an online argument about infinity and how it was an irrelevant and impractical concept. So it would be interesting to hear what Aczel has to say on the matter.




I found it quite interesting (history of infinity as it relates to math, philosophy, religion), and it ties into this ‘transfinite’ business I was referring to about a month ago.  In sum, transfinite numbers are infinite, but are differentiated by degree, that is, some are larger than others.

Extrapolated to physical realities, the transfinite concept should allow for infinite universes that are contained within a larger multiverse, and so on.  In rough and relative terms, this is not dissimilar to the EL relationship that you’ve developed.  For example, a single being that constitutes an EL 100 encounter, while incredibly powerful would not be literally omnipotent, but should be able to tackle an infinite number of CR 500 beings.

Of course, Aczel reserves room (as did Cantor) for the “Absolute Infinite” which is categorically beyond even the largest transfinite.  He equates this notion with, among other things, the Ein Sof, and it serves as an approximation of “real” omnipotence (which is not to say that everyone agrees on what this means - quite the contrary).  

All in all, very interesting, but of little practical value for most.

BTW - I loved your campaign notes, Druaga sounded nasty.  I hope to see him in the IH (along with Thrin and Doomstar).


----------



## Upper_Krust

historian said:
			
		

> Howdy Krust!




Hi historian mate!  



			
				historian said:
			
		

> If the “other” template begins with a “D” then I think I know what you’re talking about.  Otherwise, I’ll just have to do some scrying.




Nope...and don't be going through all the letters of the alphabet. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I found it quite interesting (history of infinity as it relates to math, philosophy, religion), and it ties into this ‘transfinite’ business I was referring to about a month ago.  In sum, transfinite numbers are infinite, but are differentiated by degree, that is, some are larger than others.
> 
> Extrapolated to physical realities, the transfinite concept should allow for infinite universes that are contained within a larger multiverse, and so on.  In rough and relative terms, this is not dissimilar to the EL relationship that you’ve developed.  For example, a single being that constitutes an EL 100 encounter, while incredibly powerful would not be literally omnipotent, but should be able to tackle an infinite number of CR 500 beings.
> 
> Of course, Aczel reserves room (as did Cantor) for the “Absolute Infinite” which is categorically beyond even the largest transfinite.  He equates this notion with, among other things, the Ein Sof, and it serves as an approximation of “real” omnipotence (which is not to say that everyone agrees on what this means - quite the contrary).
> 
> All in all, very interesting, but of little practical value for most.




That was the sort of argument I was up against. Someone was (erroneously) trying to use the transfinite in a practical sense.

As I recall it was that in a line of numbers stretching to infinity, all the even numbers are still infinite, but at the same time less than infinity drawn from all numbers.

Of course I then challenged them to provide the 'cut off' point between something that was finite and infinite and they couldn't do it. Since under the auspices of their argument effectively everything becomes 'partially' infinite. So its useless for all practical representations.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> BTW - I loved your campaign notes, Druaga sounded nasty.  I hope to see him in the IH (along with Thrin and Doomstar).




I'll try and squeeze Druaga into the Bestiary section, hes one of my favourite villains. I'd have used him as one of the examples in the 1st pdf. however I also have Lucifer amongst those and I was trying to get one of each alignment from the main bunch*, so they would have conflicted.

*Obviously things like Time Lords are beyond alignment.

Thrin will be amongst the Iconics (one of each alignment again), which I may put in the Chronicle (4th pdf.)

Doomstar 'may' be in a special section of the Chronicle pdf. which covers some very deadly non-divine threats (I have some great entries planned for this - you will all love it). 

...Or I 'may' use him online in the Psionics based web-enhancement. Either way you'll definately get to see him.


----------



## RandallFlagg

Hey UK!  

Yeah that would definately provoke a deity to attack another I would think. Nice campaign by the way. May I ask what your charecter was the god of?

Also, I take it that non-divine beings who can challenge gods and the like have powers that can compete with Salient abilities? And, can you give a few examples of such beings (they dont have to be from the IH)? Maybe beings like Kezef and Dendar from the Forgotten Realms? Or the Fenris Wolf? Midgard Serpent?

Thankful as always.


----------



## Upper_Krust

RandallFlagg said:
			
		

> Hey UK!




Hi RandallFlagg mate! 



			
				RandallFlagg said:
			
		

> Yeah that would definately provoke a deity to attack another I would think. Nice campaign by the way.




Thanks. Its a pity we didn't keep campaign notes at the time.



			
				RandallFlagg said:
			
		

> May I ask what your charecter was the god of?




Thrin is the god of swordsmanship (he has War and Swords Portfolios)



			
				RandallFlagg said:
			
		

> Also, I take it that non-divine beings who can challenge gods and the like have powers that can compete with Salient abilities?




Yes, although they generally just come from the same list. 



			
				RandallFlagg said:
			
		

> And, can you give a few examples of such beings (they dont have to be from the IH)? Maybe beings like Kezef and Dendar from the Forgotten Realms? Or the Fenris Wolf? Midgard Serpent?




Kezef is really Garm right? I don't really know Dendar?

I'll have Fenris and Jormungand (among others) detailed in the Norse Pantheon section of the Immortals Index.

Fenris would be an Intermediate God equivalent, Jormungandr a Greater God equivalent.

Sleipnir would be a Legendary Horse with the Quasi-deity Template.



			
				RandallFlagg said:
			
		

> Thankful as always.




My pleasure.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Wow, what a profundity of posts; I should check this thread more often.

I have a few assorted questions.  First, about names: Why are Old Ones named such?  Is there any reason they're old beyond the general D&D association "older = more powerful"?  Similarly, why are certain Eternals called Time Lords?  Is there a reason all beings of that power level would be concerned with time, or that beings of more or less power would not have the desire or ability to influence it?  (Characters who aren't yet even metamortals can influence time via spells like _time stop_; with all the levels of power in between the lowest of mortals and the Eternals, I'd expect the ability to influence time would continue to grow.)

It seems that the core of your work are the 10 major templates: Demideity, ..., Supernal.  Why are these broken down into 4 'classes' (Immortal, Sidereal, Eternal, Supernal)?  What's the difference between a really powerful Greater God and an unusually weak Old One?  (That is, why is there a gulf between them?)  Or is this just a way to simplify the presentation?

Are Time Lords the most powerful of all the Eternals, or are there more powerful types?


----------



## Alzrius

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Kezef is really Garm right? I don't really know Dendar?




Kezef is more like Fenris/Fenrir than Garm...but that's splitting hairs, since both mythical hounds have been compared as being the same being. Kezef did, after all, bite off Tyr's hand when the other gods chained him (Kezef).

Dendar is the Night Serpent. She resides in the Crystal Spire (Kelemvor's realm), eating the nightmares of mortals. Once she has become completely full, she will burst forth onto the Material Plane, and eat the sun, either ushering in, or as a symptom of, the Year of Carnage (Doomsday).


----------



## Alzrius

historian said:
			
		

> I found it quite interesting (history of infinity as it relates to math, philosophy, religion), and it ties into this ‘transfinite’ business I was referring to about a month ago.  In sum, transfinite numbers are infinite, but are differentiated by degree, that is, some are larger than others.




In other words, any subset (such as 10%) of infinity is itself infinite, and can be larger or smaller than each other (such as 10% of infinity compared to 30%)...but still fundamentally lesser than the whole (that is, the 100%).


----------



## CRGreathouse

This talk about infinities concerns me deeply... the idea that there are more integers than odd integers goes against everything I know about the various infinities (the alephs, the beths, and even the inverse "granulars" which I dispute).

U_K, have you thought about starting a new thread?  I think that shorter threads encourage people unfamiliar with the IH to post, as the thread seems less daunting.


----------



## -Eä-

Greetings friends!

There has been some development in my taste in RPGs over the last months and I have primarily converted to White Wolf's Exalted. However, I will incorporate the WPS into my new campaign, I think, making divine abilities into "charm"trees. Do you think that could be done, UK?

Also, are you planning on writing up the Greek Pantheon? While I have become incined to using the Exalted as reference, I will be running a campaign taking place in ancient Greece, where the characters will be heroes aspiring to become as great as Hercules and such.




			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> In other words, any subset (such as 10%) of infinity is itself infinite, and can be larger or smaller than each other (such as 10% of infinity compared to 30%)...but still fundamentally lesser than the whole (that is, the 100%).




Any subset of an infinite set need not be infinite itself. Also, any subest of an uncountably infinite set need not be uncountably infinite. Take for instance the subset Z (the integers) of R (the reals). Z is countably infinite while R is not. The subset {1,3,5} of Z is finite, while Z itself is not.

Also, it can be shown that Z is group isomorphic to nZ={...,mnZ,...,2nZ,nZ,0,nZ,2nZ,...,mnZ,...}, meaning that nZ and Z has the same number of elements. This also closely resembles the definition of infinity (that a proper subset of a set can have a one-to-one correspondence with the set itself). This also "proves" that 10% of "infinity" is indeed infinity but not some smaller "infinity."

Now, I am no master of set-theory, but I can provide some links to relevant pages:

http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Infinity.html
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/TransfiniteNumber.html
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/OrdinalNumber.html
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Continuum.html
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/CardinalNumber.html


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi CRGreathouse mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Wow, what a profundity of posts; I should check this thread more often.




He he! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I have a few assorted questions.  First, about names: Why are Old Ones named such?  Is there any reason they're old beyond the general D&D association "older = more powerful"?




Its partially a Lovecraft thing I suppose. Elder Gods. Great Old Ones. etc.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Similarly, why are certain Eternals called Time Lords?




My initial investigations into the occult brought forth an obscure reference to the name Time Lords, I can



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Is there a reason all beings of that power level would be concerned with time,




Thats probably how Sidereals (and the few Immortals who know of them) perceive them.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> or that beings of more or less power would not have the desire or ability to influence it?  (Characters who aren't yet even metamortals can influence time via spells like _time stop_; with all the levels of power in between the lowest of mortals and the Eternals, I'd expect the ability to influence time would continue to grow.)




Time Lords don't (just) influence Time - they exist completely outside it.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> It seems that the core of your work are the 10 major templates: Demideity, ..., Supernal.




Well I think the Disciple - Quasi-deity templates will probably see more use than the Time Lords + stuff.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Why are these broken down into 4 'classes' (Immortal, Sidereal, Eternal, Supernal)?




Each class means something. Immortal obviously means just that. Sidereal I will further explain in the book. Eternal means a number of things including existing outside time itself. Supernal I'll also explain in the book. 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> What's the difference between a really powerful Greater God and an unusually weak Old One?  (That is, why is there a gulf between them?)  Or is this just a way to simplify the presentation?




To explain the gulf I would have to better explain Old Ones and I want to keep a few secrets for the book. 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Are Time Lords the most powerful of all the Eternals, or are there more powerful types?




There are more powerful types.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Alzrius mate! 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Kezef is more like Fenris/Fenrir than Garm...but that's splitting hairs, since both mythical hounds have been compared as being the same being. Kezef did, after all, bite off Tyr's hand when the other gods chained him (Kezef).
> 
> Dendar is the Night Serpent. She resides in the Crystal Spire (Kelemvor's realm), eating the nightmares of mortals. Once she has become completely full, she will burst forth onto the Material Plane, and eat the sun, either ushering in, or as a symptom of, the Year of Carnage (Doomsday).




Okay, thanks for the details.

In the Pantheon chapter I have a section on creating (not only a mythologies Pantheons - obviously) a Pantheons enemies and balancing that with the creation of the Pantheon itself.

eg. So the Greek Pantheon may be slightly larger than the Japanese Pantheon but that will mean it has more intrinsic enemies.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> In other words, any subset (such as 10%) of infinity is itself infinite, and can be larger or smaller than each other (such as 10% of infinity compared to 30%)...but still fundamentally lesser than the whole (that is, the 100%).




Exactly. Though this is (for practical purposes) useless, since it pidgeon holes everything into a subset of infinity.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi CRGreathouse mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> This talk about infinities concerns me deeply... the idea that there are more integers than odd integers goes against everything I know about the various infinities (the alephs, the beths, and even the inverse "granulars" which I dispute).




I take it all with a 'pinch of salt' myself.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> U_K, have you thought about starting a new thread?  I think that shorter threads encourage people unfamiliar with the IH to post, as the thread seems less daunting.




Yes, but with the website iminent I would prefer to devote my attentions to that.


----------



## Upper_Krust

-Eä- said:
			
		

> Greetings friends!




Ahoy Eä matey! 

Hope you have been keeping well?



			
				-Eä- said:
			
		

> There has been some development in my taste in RPGs over the last months and I have primarily converted to White Wolf's Exalted. However, I will incorporate the WPS into my new campaign, I think, making divine abilities into "charm" trees. Do you think that could be done, UK?




Can you show me an example of a 'Charm Tree'? I am only (very) loosely familiar with Exalted.



			
				-Eä- said:
			
		

> Also, are you planning on writing up the Greek Pantheon? While I have become incined to using the Exalted as reference, I will be running a campaign taking place in ancient Greece, where the characters will be heroes aspiring to become as great as Hercules and such.




Yes, I will doing the Greek Pantheon in the Immortals Index. All Earthly Pantheons in fact...as well as a few others. 



			
				-Eä- said:
			
		

> Any subset of an infinite set need not be infinite itself. Also, any subest of an uncountably infinite set need not be uncountably infinite. Take for instance the subset Z (the integers) of R (the reals). Z is countably infinite while R is not. The subset {1,3,5} of Z is finite, while Z itself is not.
> 
> Also, it can be shown that Z is group isomorphic to nZ={...,mnZ,...,2nZ,nZ,0,nZ,2nZ,...,mnZ,...}, meaning that nZ and Z has the same number of elements. This also closely resembles the definition of infinity (that a proper subset of a set can have a one-to-one correspondence with the set itself). This also "proves" that 10% of "infinity" is indeed infinity but not some smaller "infinity."
> 
> Now, I am no master of set-theory, but I can provide some links to relevant pages:
> 
> http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Infinity.html
> http://mathworld.wolfram.com/TransfiniteNumber.html
> http://mathworld.wolfram.com/OrdinalNumber.html
> http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Continuum.html
> http://mathworld.wolfram.com/CardinalNumber.html




Now you're just showing off aren't you!


----------



## -Eä-

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Ahoy Eä matey!
> 
> Hope you have been keeping well?




Sure! But as always, some things could have been better (-;




			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Can you show me an example of a 'Charm Tree'? I am only (very) loosely familiar with Exalted.




Yeps, will try. 

http://www.aeonsociety.com/Exalted/Charms/SidrealExaltedCharms.pdf



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Yes, I will doing the Greek Pantheon in the Immortals Index. All Earthly Pantheons in fact...as well as a few others.




Nice.. Though I will probably need some heavy converting.



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Now you're just showing off aren't you!




Perhaps (-; Though I think it was a relevant point that in mathematics a proper infinite subset, H, of an infinite set, F, in many cases indeed has the same number of elements as F. 

For instance, if you regard 10% of Z (the integers) as the set 
10Z={...,-n*10,...,-30,-20,-10,0,10,20,30,...,n*10,...},
it has exactly as many elements as 
Z={...,-n,...,-3,-2,-1,0,1,2,3,...,n,...}
and both have (countably) infinite elements.

Equally, I=<0,1> is homeomorphic to the whole real line R=<-infinity,infinity> (and in Topology they can be regarded as the same spaces). And I has as many elements as R.

Infinity is indeed a strange "quantity."


----------



## CRGreathouse

Strange as this may sound to non-math people, I must thank -Eä- for bringing some sense back into this discussion.


----------



## Verequus

Hi U_K!



> I hope you have been keeping well!?



Yes, while being busy, I had even not one cold!  

I think you can help me with two problems regarding my story. A little bit of background: A Timelord chose to move the universe of a parallel earth into the "area" of universes with magic and imbued the earth with magic. He/She/It also gave some humans special properties, making them to the source of magic and masters over one element (22 like in Elements of Magic - yes, exactly those elements  ). But some things went horribly wrong and the three surviving elemental masters became big, bad and (first in their universe, later over really many universes) unstoppable tyrants (I think they will become Greater Gods or even Old Ones).

Because of a contract the Timelord couldn't stop those tyrants, so he looked after some loopholes to change the course of events. The only thing possible was to get someone powerful for killing those tyrants - the main character, a slave being created by those tyrants. He/She/It freed it and provided some limited support like giving immortality.

And there lurks the problems. Because the main character will unavoidable make many, many enemies and he isn't for the first centuries really subtle (he has to learn a lot of things, even the basics of culture are unknown to him, so he thinks at first that friendship isn't voluntary but brought through a Greater Power, which he tries to find - after failing the discovery of priests or other signs of this god he decided to get his attention through killing his followers...). So he will get killed, with noone wanting to resurrect him except the Timelord. Thus my conclusion is to give the main character a kind of immortality, which has a resurrection feature like the ghosts in the MM. Do you have such a feature in stock?

The second problem is, that other greater beings will eventually discover him and try to kill him permanently, before he becomes too powerful. With a loophole in the automatic resurrection thingy they will eventually find a method to exploit this. How can the discovery by those enemies be prevented?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hello again mate! 



			
				-Eä- said:
			
		

> Sure! But as always, some things could have been better (-;




Thats always the way of it though.



			
				-Eä- said:
			
		

> Yeps, will try.
> 
> http://www.aeonsociety.com/Exalted/Charms/SidrealExaltedCharms.pdf




Okay, thanks for that. It appears that they are merely outlined feat/ability trees derived from prerequisites.

It shouldn't be too difficult to illustrate something similar within the framework of d20.



			
				-Eä- said:
			
		

> Nice.. Though I will probably need some heavy converting.




Indeed.



			
				-Eä- said:
			
		

> Perhaps (-; Though I think it was a relevant point that in mathematics a proper infinite subset, H, of an infinite set, F, in many cases indeed has the same number of elements as F.
> 
> For instance, if you regard 10% of Z (the integers) as the set
> 10Z={...,-n*10,...,-30,-20,-10,0,10,20,30,...,n*10,...},
> it has exactly as many elements as
> Z={...,-n,...,-3,-2,-1,0,1,2,3,...,n,...}
> and both have (countably) infinite elements.
> 
> Equally, I=<0,1> is homeomorphic to the whole real line R=<-infinity,infinity> (and in Topology they can be regarded as the same spaces). And I has as many elements as R.
> 
> Infinity is indeed a strange "quantity."




Well thats clarified it all for me.


----------



## Upper_Krust

RuleMaster said:
			
		

> Hi U_K!




Hi Rulemaster mate! 



			
				RuleMaster said:
			
		

> Yes, while being busy, I had even not one cold!




You have fared well indeed. 

I used to get minor illnesses like colds, and sore throats all the time, but I have noticed that when regularly training/exercising I never get ill. 



			
				RuleMaster said:
			
		

> I think you can help me with two problems regarding my story. A little bit of background: A Timelord chose to move the universe of a parallel earth into the "area" of universes with magic and imbued the earth with magic. He/She/It also gave some humans special properties, making them to the source of magic and masters over one element (22 like in Elements of Magic - yes, exactly those elements  ). But some things went horribly wrong and the three surviving elemental masters became big, bad and (first in their universe, later over really many universes) unstoppable tyrants (I think they will become Greater Gods or even Old Ones).
> 
> Because of a contract the Timelord couldn't stop those tyrants, so he looked after some loopholes to change the course of events. The only thing possible was to get someone powerful for killing those tyrants - the main character, a slave being created by those tyrants. He/She/It freed it and provided some limited support like giving immortality.




Sounds really interesting. I like the idea of alienating one of the elements against the others.



			
				RuleMaster said:
			
		

> And there lurks the problems. Because the main character will unavoidable make many, many enemies and he isn't for the first centuries really subtle (he has to learn a lot of things, even the basics of culture are unknown to him, so he thinks at first that friendship isn't voluntary but brought through a Greater Power, which he tries to find - after failing the discovery of priests or other signs of this god he decided to get his attention through killing his followers...). So he will get killed, with noone wanting to resurrect him except the Timelord. Thus my conclusion is to give the main character a kind of immortality, which has a resurrection feature like the ghosts in the MM. Do you have such a feature in stock?




This is me you're talking to - of course I do. 

I actually have a number of different types of resurrection type abilities. The primary ability is a cosmic one called Second Coming which reincarnates the deity. But there are other more powerful powers such as Transmigration that let you take over the body of the being who killed you. Or even beyond that is a power called Metamerism which means you can never be destroyed only divided.

So you have a choice of abilities to choose from. 

Hope some of those spark your interest. There are probably others I can't even remember off-hand.

I like the basic idea of the Second Coming. Even if the deity is destroyed it reincarnates again and again. You could easily see parallels in Moorcocks Eternal Champion idea.



			
				RuleMaster said:
			
		

> The second problem is, that other greater beings will eventually discover him and try to kill him permanently, before he becomes too powerful. With a loophole in the automatic resurrection thingy they will eventually find a method to exploit this. How can the discovery by those enemies be prevented?




Well there is probably no method of hiding your secrets forever, at least, certainly not from beings who are essentially more powerful than yourself.

Though that in itself could be part of the campaign. With every incarnation the character must secretly sow the seeds for its next incarnation. This could be something as simple as having a child, who will eventually rise up and become the next incarnation, inheriting all your powers.


----------



## historian

Howdy Krust!  



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by historian
> If the “other” template begins with a “D” then I think I know what you’re talking about. Otherwise, I’ll just have to do some scrying.
> 
> 
> Nope...and don't be going through all the letters of the alphabet.




Don't worry dude, that's why I have a crystal ball.    That "D" thing that I had in mind is more likely associated with the sideral level anyway.




> *Obviously things like Time Lords are beyond alignment.




Sweet - I'm wondering if 'transcending alignment' is a prerequisitie to ascending to eternal status.  



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by CRGreathouse
> Are Time Lords the most powerful of all the Eternals, or are there more powerful types?
> 
> 
> There are more powerful types.




Somehow I was under the impression that the Time Lords were the last link in the chain before the supernals.



> Strange as this may sound to non-math people, I must thank -Eä- for bringing some sense back into this discussion.




To the extent I have played a role in getting anyone 'off-track' I apologize.  I should remember that most of the posters drawn to this discussion are of the "lawful" (good or neutral) variety.


----------



## RandallFlagg

Hey UK!  

Im completely lost with all this talk of infinity, so I'll just skip that discussion and go straight into my question(s)...  

Awhile back (on the WotC forums I believe), we talked about a vampire (and a "progenitor" vampire I believe...) that you hadnt decided whether or not was going in your book.  I was just curious as to whether or not you've decided yet?

Also, I was wondering if you could help me with something, and what it sounds like it would be in the IH. Im developing a deity who's profolio is Time, Fate, Dreams, and either Water or Life (yeah he's different  ).  What do you think he would be according to your book? A Greater God? A Old One? High One? Higher than that? Lower? Also, what classes do you think best suits him (im a flavor heavy person). 

And finally, I was wondering your theory on pantheon threating monsters; like where do they come from? Is there a race? How come the God's dont band together and destroy something that theoretically threatens them all? I realize that all this is extremely campaign specific, but im just curious about your POV.

Peace!


----------



## CRGreathouse

historian said:
			
		

> HDon't worry dude, that's why I have a crystal ball.    That "D" thing that I had in mind is more likely associated with the sideral level anyway.




I have to ask, out of curiosity, what this word is.  Of course, if you don't want to share that's fine -- and if you don't want the Krust to see it, you could always email me (address in profile).



			
				historian said:
			
		

> To the extent I have played a role in getting anyone 'off-track' I apologize.  I should remember that most of the posters drawn to this discussion are of the "lawful" (good or neutral) variety.




NG here (with slight CG tendencies), but I often masquarade as LG.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Sweet - I'm wondering if 'transcending alignment' is a prerequisitie to ascending to eternal status.




Interestingly, I wrote a Transcendant prestige class that had, in essence, a lesser version of the same...

U_K, is the lack of alignment neccesary at that level, or could it be reintroduced if desired?  (I'm somewhat unsure of my current plans as I've been holding off on designing the upper-tier gods until I know more of the IH.)

Also, are you releasing the IH PDFs like WotC (some time apart, in their case 4-5 weeks -- hopefully less in your case) released the 3.0 core books, or all at once?  I can certainly see the appeal of spreading them out, since it will lessen the impact on the consumers' pocketbooks, and should let you get the first PDF out a bit sooner, since you can hold off on the last bits of work for the remaining 3 PDFs until after the first is released.  I'm sure there are difficulties with that method, too, of course.


----------



## Upper_Krust

historian said:
			
		

> Howdy Krust!




Hiya mate!  



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Don't worry dude, that's why I have a crystal ball.    That "D" thing that I had in mind is more likely associated with the sideral level anyway.




Your reaching. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Sweet - I'm wondering if 'transcending alignment' is a prerequisitie to ascending to eternal status.




Only indirectly.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Somehow I was under the impression that the Time Lords were the last link in the chain before the supernals.




Well all Eternals are technically Time Lords...just some are better than others. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> To the extent I have played a role in getting anyone 'off-track' I apologize.




Don't be silly, no apologies necessary, we are all friends here. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I should remember that most of the posters drawn to this discussion are of the "lawful" (good or neutral) variety.




Lawful Good with neutral tendencies.


----------



## historian

Hello CRGreathouse - 



> I have to ask, out of curiosity, what this word is. Of course, if you don't want to share that's fine -- and if you don't want the Krust to see it, you could always email me (address in profile).




I'll e-mail you the "D" word in a few minutes.  I don't have any issues sharing it, nor do I think Krust would mind my posting it here, but it's probably 'best practice' to share it with you privately.



> NG here (with slight CG tendencies), but I often masquarade as LG.




 FWIW - My behavior oscillates between NG and true neutral.  My utilitarian side keeps me from a cut and dry NG alignment rating.

When I played Planescape my alignnment would typically emerge as chaotic good - but that's not me. 



> Interestingly, I wrote a Transcendant prestige class that had, in essence, a lesser version of the same...




That's a cool idea.  I could envision mundane creatures eschewing immortal or sidereal worship in the event they became aware of the eternals or better.  Perhaps this could be a precondition for eligibility of your prestige class?  Going beyond alignment seems like a tall order for anything that's remotely human (maybe Kurtz from Apocalyspe Now would qualify?) as the ethos would seem to drag one "down" if you will.  

I would love to see th outline for your idea.


----------



## Upper_Krust

RandallFlagg said:
			
		

> Hey UK!




Hi RandallFlagg mate!  



			
				RandallFlagg said:
			
		

> Im completely lost with all this talk of infinity, so I'll just skip that discussion and go straight into my question(s)...








			
				RandallFlagg said:
			
		

> Awhile back (on the WotC forums I believe), we talked about a vampire (and a "progenitor" vampire I believe...) that you hadnt decided whether or not was going in your book.  I was just curious as to whether or not you've decided yet?




To be honest I haven't. I have been concentrating on the first pdf of late.

Though I occasionally do go over the monsters, and recently decided on a monster example for my Devastation template. So you'll all get to see a Devastation Human (aka Brobdingnagian) in the bestiary. 



			
				RandallFlagg said:
			
		

> Also, I was wondering if you could help me with something, and what it sounds like it would be in the IH. Im developing a deity who's profolio is Time, Fate, Dreams, and either Water or Life (yeah he's different  ).  What do you think he would be according to your book? A Greater God? A Old One? High One? Higher than that? Lower?




He could be any measure of power. Though since deities only get two Portfolios initially hes going to need to be a Lesser God or better to have gained those extra Portfolios.



			
				RandallFlagg said:
			
		

> Also, what classes do you think best suits him (im a flavor heavy person).




Primarily Bard with either Druid (Water) or Cleric (Life) as secondary levels. 



			
				RandallFlagg said:
			
		

> And finally, I was wondering your theory on pantheon threating monsters; like where do they come from? Is there a race? How come the God's dont band together and destroy something that theoretically threatens them all? I realize that all this is extremely campaign specific, but im just curious about your POV.




Well, think of the cosmic balance. Pantheons evolve. The stronger the pantheon, the more enemies its going to have made over the years. It is this greater friction that lets the Pantheon exceed its peers. So if they were to kill off the monsters that would lead to stagnation.

Primarily this is a tool to help balance pantheons, but I think it makes sense from a philosophical point of view.



			
				RandallFlagg said:
			
		

> Peace!




Indeed.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya CRGreathous mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I have to ask, out of curiosity, what this word is.  Of course, if you don't want to share that's fine -- and if you don't want the Krust to see it, you could always email me (address in profile).




Theres no big mystery, I believe historian is refering to Demiurge. Which I no longer use as a divine status.

I have been considering making it an Immortal Prestige Class.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> NG here (with slight CG tendencies), but I often masquarade as LG.




So you are a Rogue then. 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Interestingly, I wrote a Transcendant prestige class that had, in essence, a lesser version of the same...




You should post the link for people.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> U_K, is the lack of alignment neccesary at that level, or could it be reintroduced if desired?  (I'm somewhat unsure of my current plans as I've been holding off on designing the upper-tier gods until I know more of the IH.)




Its not so much that you have no alignment, more a case where you are beyond alignment...if that makes any sense. 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Also, are you releasing the IH PDFs like WotC (some time apart, in their case 4-5 weeks -- hopefully less in your case) released the 3.0 core books, or all at once?  I can certainly see the appeal of spreading them out, since it will lessen the impact on the consumers' pocketbooks, and should let you get the first PDF out a bit sooner, since you can hold off on the last bits of work for the remaining 3 PDFs until after the first is released.  I'm sure there are difficulties with that method, too, of course.




Well I am tentative about how long it will take to finish off the various peices but I think the 2nd (Grimoire) pdf will take 3-4 weeks, the 3rd (Bestiary) maybe 4-5 weeks (because of the greater amount of art) and the 4th (Chronicle) about 3-4 weeks.


----------



## historian

> Hiya mate!




Evening Krust! 



> You're reaching




 It's a dirty job but someone's gotta do it. 



> Well all Eternals are technically Time Lords...just some are better than others.




Cryptic . . . .   



> Don't be silly, no apologies necessary, we are all friends here.




The contingent apology was consistent with my neutral good persona   



> Lawful Good with neutral tendencies.




I knew that beyond a shadow of a doubt.


----------



## Knight Otu

Speaking of alignments, I guess I'd be True Neutral, leaning towards Law, and a few bursts of Chaos (this is when I have a flurry of posts with my Ashardalon account or post very much in the Hivemind. )



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Though I occasionally do go over the monsters, and recently decided on a monster example for my Devastation template. So you'll all get to see a Devastation Human (aka Brobdingnagian) in the bestiary.



 Wonder what powers a devestation creature would have? Something like the Nullification power the dragon I posted on the other thread has? Or are they more akin to the devestation vermin in the ELH?



> Primarily Bard with either Druid (Water) or Cleric (Life) as secondary levels.



 Considering I have been known to take exactly the opposite route you'd take, I'm surprised that Druid or Cleric would have been my guess for the first class.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Knight Otu (and historian)! 



			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> Speaking of alignments, I guess I'd be True Neutral, leaning towards Law, and a few bursts of Chaos (this is when I have a flurry of posts with my Ashardalon account or post very much in the Hivemind. )




He he! 



			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> Wonder what powers a devestation creature would have? Something like the Nullification power the dragon I posted on the other thread has? Or are they more akin to the devestation vermin in the ELH?




They are indeed based on the Devastation Vermin in the ELH. So you can imagine beings larger than insects scaled up. 



			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> Considering I have been known to take exactly the opposite route you'd take, I'm surprised that Druid or Cleric would have been my guess for the first class.




Great minds think alike...in this instance anyway.


----------



## Knight Otu

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> They are indeed based on the Devastation Vermin in the ELH. So you can imagine beings larger than insects scaled up.



 Using the same scale?

 *Tries imagining Colossal+N*

 *Starts to see Planets*

 Oops.


----------



## historian

> There's no big mystery, I believe historian is refering to Demiurge. Which I no longer use as a divine status.




Indeed I was.    I am wondering if the American game show "Wheel of Fortune' is popular in the U.K.



> They are indeed based on the Devastation Vermin in the ELH. So you can imagine beings larger than insects scaled up.




 I can't wait to unleash the devastation orcs.


----------



## RandallFlagg

Hey UK.   

Holy crap! Devastation template....that's awesome UK. Incidently, do you have any sizes in your book bigger than colossal+? I thought that was lame...I mean, colossal+ could be 300ft tall, or 4000ft tall...big difference there. 

Thanks for the advice with the god by the way.  


Also, do you use damage reduction the same way as WotC? Such as 20/Silver and Holy and Slashing, like that? If so, how do the larger entities stack up? Artifacts and other unique items only doing full damage?


----------



## EvilMountainDew

Sorry.  I saw this thread a while ago (Imi a pretty crazy lurker)   and I am incredibly interested in this Book.  I know for a fact that i will get it when its open (unless i need paypal  ) to public.

Im just curious if you have a publication date coming up?  and I know you mentioned a CR 40,000 creature.   Ive been wondering what such a creature could be.  The only thing ive thought up was Gravity-Itself 

Sorry if you are sick of answering the pub-date question, but I havent been following this thread as much as I'd like to.

Thanks.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Knight Otu mate! 



			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> Using the same scale?
> 
> *Tries imagining Colossal+N*
> 
> *Starts to see Planets*
> 
> Oops.




Think bigger. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Indeed I was.  I am wondering if the American game show "Wheel of Fortune' is popular in the U.K.




I'm familiar with it. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I can't wait to unleash the devastation orcs.




I heard they feed on Tarrasques. 



			
				RandallFlagg said:
			
		

> Holy crap! Devastation template....that's awesome UK. Incidently, do you have any sizes in your book bigger than colossal+? I thought that was lame...I mean, colossal+ could be 300ft tall, or 4000ft tall...big difference there.




I do have sizes bigger than Colossal in my book, in fact quite a few sizes bigger. 

As far as I know the Colossal+ mentioned in the ELH refers to something 128-255 ft.

Personally I wanted to have each size category named, but there are only about ten possible extra descriptive terms and I have more categories than that.



			
				RandallFlagg said:
			
		

> Thanks for the advice with the god by the way.




My pleasure.



			
				RandallFlagg said:
			
		

> Also, do you use damage reduction the same way as WotC? Such as 20/Silver and Holy and Slashing, like that?




Yes. I also have some new elements, which I'll be keeping secret for now. 



			
				RandallFlagg said:
			
		

> If so, how do the larger entities stack up?




I don't want to frighten you. 



			
				RandallFlagg said:
			
		

> Artifacts and other unique items only doing full damage?




Well that depends on the artifact. 

There are Divine Abilities which deal with these sort of things as well as weapon powers.


----------



## Anabstercorian

DR 60/Epic Good Evil Lawful Chaotic Adamantine?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hello there! 



			
				EvilMountainDew said:
			
		

> Sorry.  I saw this thread a while ago (Imi a pretty crazy lurker)   and I am incredibly interested in this Book.




Well, nice to meet you. 



			
				EvilMountainDew said:
			
		

> I know for a fact that i will get it when its open (unless i need paypal  ) to public.




I appreciate the support.



			
				EvilMountainDew said:
			
		

> Im just curious if you have a publication date coming up?




As soon as possible. Can't really say more than that at this juncture.



			
				EvilMountainDew said:
			
		

> and I know you mentioned a CR 40,000 creature.   Ive been wondering what such a creature could be.  The only thing ive thought up was Gravity-Itself




Funny you mention it I do have a gravity based 'Black Hole Beast*' which is very powerful but I don't think its the CR 40,000 creature.

*A common sub-name, not the monsters actual name.



			
				EvilMountainDew said:
			
		

> Sorry if you are sick of answering the pub-date question, but I havent been following this thread as much as I'd like to.




No apologies necessary. If anyone should be aploogising its me for not having the book out already.   



			
				EvilMountainDew said:
			
		

> Thanks.




Anytime mate.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Anabstercorian mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> DR 60/Epic Good Evil Lawful Chaotic Adamantine?




I really want to spill the beans but you are just going to have to wait.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Here's the class I mentioned earlier:

Transcendant Epic PrC


----------



## historian

CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Here's the class I mentioned earlier:
> 
> Transcendant Epic PrC




That's an awfully cool class CRGreathouse, and seems mighty powerful.  I might think about requiring a very high wisdom score, plus a direct encounter with an eternal before applying 'renounce morality' (also, as I read it, the character wouldn't be withdrawing or transcending the entirety of their alignment, just either the law/chaos or good/evil part).

In addition to what you've listed, one perk to transcending alignment could be that the character would become undectable to those who formerly shared the character's alignment.  For instance, a lawful evil monk that transcended evil could be rewarded with, in effect, a permanent mind blank spell in effect against creatures of evil alignments (you could even include deities if you wanted to make it uber powerful, or you could even make the character entirely undetectable ).  Of course, this effect might be reserved for only the mightiest of the class.  

Just some thoughts.


----------



## CRGreathouse

I'm glad you liked the class.  I wrote it because I thought it would be a good idea to develop, not because I had any characters going down that path -- but once I wrote it, two of the players told me they were interested!



			
				historian said:
			
		

> In addition to what you've listed, one perk to transcending alignment could be that the character would become undectable to those who formerly shared the character's alignment.  For instance, a lawful evil monk that transcended evil could be rewarded with, in effect, a permanent mind blank spell in effect against creatures of evil alignments (you could even include deities if you wanted to make it uber powerful, or you could even make the character entirely undetectable ).  Of course, this effect might be reserved for only the mightiest of the class.




I like that idea.  I might make it an epic feat requiring (effectively) all 15 levels of the class.

One thing I don't like about the class is its terminal ability, which seems pretty flavorless for what should be the keystone of the class -- the 'Transcend' of the Transcendant.  Any thoughts?

Oh, and we should probably post on that thread so as to not further sully the IH thread.


----------



## historian

> I'm glad you liked the class. I wrote it because I thought it would be a good idea to develop, not because I had any characters going down that path -- but once I wrote it, two of the players told me they were interested!






> Oh, and we should probably post on that thread so as to not further sully the IH thread.




I liked it very much and will post a few 'class specific' comments in a bit on the thread designated to it.

It's definitely the type of thing that I envision being employed in the context of an Immortals campaign in any number of ways.

Aside from reading various incarnations of the IH thread, I initially became interested in the whole transcending alignment bit when contemplating how to convert Excrucians (and their 'father' Harumaph) from _Nobilis _ lore to d20.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi all! 

Just wanted to comment that in finalising the feats/powers chapter I have decided I will be revising a few WotC feats.

1. Toughness (and by extension Epic Toughness): +1 hp/HD or Level

Epic

2. Damage Reduction: DR 2/-
3. Fast Healing: +2 hp/round
4. Great Smiting: no longer stacks (though it can be increased again with a Divine Ability)
5. Multispell: just a clarification that all Quickened spells are simultaneous, so you can't teleport in, attack and teleport out all in the one go.

Any comments?


----------



## CRGreathouse

Interesting.  I never saw the Fast Healing as overly powerful, but I suppose I'll look into the issue if you think it's too good as is.

Any news on the new Meta Gifts in the IH?  Is there any chance of you posting the names of the first 12 (or even 32  ) Meta Gifts?


----------



## Drow Jones

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hi all!
> 
> Just wanted to comment that in finalising the feats/powers chapter I have decided I will be revising a few WotC feats.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> 5. Multispell: just a clarification that all Quickened spells are simultaneous, so you can't teleport in, attack and teleport out all in the one go.
> 
> Any comments?



Hi UK,

This is a deviation from the normal rules, which assume that you can take different actions in whatever order you want to. You need to word this rule so that it does not contradict this. 

For example:
"When using the free action to cast a quickened spell, you can cast more than one quickened spell simultaneously 'during' this free action. All spells cast using multispell must be quickened. You cannot use more than one free action to cast quickened spells during one round."

... or something more elegant.  

If this was already the way you were going to implement your change, feel free to ignore the above. 

- DJ


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Interesting.  I never saw the Fast Healing as overly powerful, but I suppose I'll look into the issue if you think it's too good as is.




I just prefer defensive and offensive capabilities to be balanced against each other. Stops things from getting out of hand at higher levels. 

That said, I may change my mind about Damage Reduction and Fast Healing.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Any news on the new Meta Gifts in the IH?  Is there any chance of you posting the names of the first 12 (or even 32  ) Meta Gifts?




Do you mean the Metempiric Abilities (the ones beyond Omnific)?

If so there are only 8 of them.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Drow Jones said:
			
		

> Hi UK,




Hi Drow Jones mate! 



			
				Drow Jones said:
			
		

> This is a deviation from the normal rules, which assume that you can take different actions in whatever order you want to. You need to word this rule so that it does not contradict this.
> 
> For example:
> "When using the free action to cast a quickened spell, you can cast more than one quickened spell simultaneously 'during' this free action. All spells cast using multispell must be quickened. You cannot use more than one free action to cast quickened spells during one round."
> 
> ... or something more elegant.
> 
> If this was already the way you were going to implement your change, feel free to ignore the above.




Hey thanks, I appreciate the help mate. It wasn't the exact text I previously posted though. 

I think this solves the problem with Multispell to some degree, anyone have reservations about it?


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> That said, I may change my mind about Damage Reduction and Fast Healing.




I have trouble seeing the feats, as written, as equal.  The first point of fast healing may well be better than the first point of damage reduction, because of out-of-combat benefits, but beyond that Damage Reduction is, IMO, much better.  If you take 4 hits a round then that's 12 damage reduced.  The abilities would only be of equal value if you averaged only one hit per round -- and still, with Fast Healing you're at more risk for dying from a single blow (since DR stops the damage completely).  For example comparing characters with DR 21/-- and fast healing 21, both at a low number of hit points (say 10), a single 25-point hit would kill the one with fast healing but not DR.



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Do you mean the Metempiric Abilities (the ones beyond Omnific)?
> 
> If so there are only 8 of them.




No, I meant the epic feats.  You revealed the names of the first quarter of the Divine Gifts so I wondered...

...OK, so that's too much to ask for, but I thought it might spark some discussion.


How about this question instead:
I have a Divine Rank 20 (since you don't use DvRs, call it a 'near-sidereal greater deity') goddess who is concerned with Time.  She wants power over this sphere, but in my cosmology she can't really do much with it as a Greater Goddess.  When she achieves her current goal and 'ascends' to gain a Divine Rank, she'll go beyond mortal concern (she's nearly there already) and get the power she desires over Time.

Could this be modeled?  How?  Would I need to create new Gifts/Portfolios/Etc, or perhaps remove existing ones to make her power beyond the reach of a Greater God?


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I think this solves the problem with Multispell to some degree, anyone have reservations about it?




I think it's good, though I'd make minor changes:

"If you have the Multispell epic feat, you can cast more than one quickened spell simultaneously in a single free action. You cannot use more than one free action to cast quickened spells during a round. (This effectively makes all of your Quickened spells simultaneous.)"


----------



## Sledge

I have a real problem with the idea of multispell being "simultaneous".  I think that the implication that the caster is actually casting multiple spells simultaneously defeats the need for Quicken spell.  If multispell is just simultaneous casting why even need Quickened for it.  Why not let it affect normal spells?  I think that if you want to keep it from becoming abusive (And I do have an epic character that has taken all 3 auto quickens and has just taken his first multispell.) there are better ways.  Change the mechanic of teleport or something else so that it takes a moment to reorient.  If hit and run is the real problem then fix that not multispell.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi CRGreathouse mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I have trouble seeing the feats, as written, as equal.  The first point of fast healing may well be better than the first point of damage reduction, because of out-of-combat benefits, but beyond that Damage Reduction is, IMO, much better.  If you take 4 hits a round then that's 12 damage reduced.  The abilities would only be of equal value if you averaged only one hit per round -- and still, with Fast Healing you're at more risk for dying from a single blow (since DR stops the damage completely).  For example comparing characters with DR 21/-- and fast healing 21, both at a low number of hit points (say 10), a single 25-point hit would kill the one with fast healing but not DR.




Agreed. I may change the initial Fast Healing ability into a Divine Ability.

What about this idea. 

Taking the Fast Healing Divine Ability gets you Fast Healing 1
Taking Improved Fast Healing* Cosmic (maybe?) Ability gets you Fast Healing = HD/Levels

*I may change the name, that was on the spur of the moment. 

That would simplify things a bit though I think..



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> No, I meant the epic feats.  You revealed the names of the first quarter of the Divine Gifts so I wondered...
> 
> ...OK, so that's too much to ask for, but I thought it might spark some discussion.




I'll post them up in a few days time.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> How about this question instead:
> I have a Divine Rank 20 (since you don't use DvRs, call it a 'near-sidereal greater deity') goddess who is concerned with Time.  She wants power over this sphere, but in my cosmology she can't really do much with it as a Greater Goddess.  When she achieves her current goal and 'ascends' to gain a Divine Rank, she'll go beyond mortal concern (she's nearly there already) and get the power she desires over Time.
> 
> Could this be modeled?  How?  Would I need to create new Gifts/Portfolios/Etc, or perhaps remove existing ones to make her power beyond the reach of a Greater God?




Its a little unclear what exactly you are after.

I have the Time Portfolio and I have various abilities from Divine upwards that have to do with time.

I suspect you will find what you are looking for in there.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Sledge matey! 



			
				Sledge said:
			
		

> I have a real problem with the idea of multispell being "simultaneous".  I think that the implication that the caster is actually casting multiple spells simultaneously defeats the need for Quicken spell.  If multispell is just simultaneous casting why even need Quickened for it.  Why not let it affect normal spells?  I think that if you want to keep it from becoming abusive (And I do have an epic character that has taken all 3 auto quickens and has just taken his first multispell.) there are better ways.  Change the mechanic of teleport or something else so that it takes a moment to reorient.  If hit and run is the real problem then fix that not multispell.




You might have a point. 

Although I am wary of people exploiting that ability (in conjunction with the IH - it would be possible for even Demigods to be casting over 20 spells/round) overall.

My instinct tells me to kick Multispell up to Divine Ability but remove the quickened bit altogether.

Then just allow as many quickened spells to be cast as people want, with the caveat that EACH quickened spell in a round has a cumulative -4 level penalty.


----------



## Impeesa

Regarding your Toughness tweak: There is an Improved Toughness in Complete Warrior which gives +1 HP per HD (increases as you gain HD/levels). It can't be taken more than once, but stacks with all the various other toughness feats as usual. Do you think that would work better than replacing all versions of toughness outright?

--Impeesa--


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Agreed. I may change the initial Fast Healing ability into a Divine Ability.
> 
> What about this idea.
> 
> Taking the Fast Healing Divine Ability gets you Fast Healing 1
> Taking Improved Fast Healing* Cosmic (maybe?) Ability gets you Fast Healing = HD/Levels




That's absurdly expensive.  Even if the epic feat is overly powerful (you said +2 was better than +3), paying a Divine Gift/SDA for 1 point of fast healing is crazy... and a Cosmic ability for more?  Isn't that the cost of perpetual resurrection?

If this is a joke pulled over the wool of my Wisdom 6, OK you win.  If you're serious then I'm really confused.



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Its a little unclear what exactly you are after.
> 
> I have the Time Portfolio and I have various abilities from Divine upwards that have to do with time.
> 
> I suspect you will find what you are looking for in there.




That's all I was after -- confirmation that there are time-related abilities availible to those below Time Lords and above Greater Deities.  Thanks!


----------



## historian

Hey Krust!



> Although I am wary of people exploiting that ability (in conjunction with the IH - it would be possible for even Demigods to be casting over 20 spells/round) overall.




A distinct and dangerous possibility (quickened spell-like abilities and innate spells coupled with the 'automatic quicken' feat could make this a real problem).

While I like the 'quickened' and 'multispell' feats because they distinguish 17-20th level mages from 27th to 30th level mages (above and beyond higher spell DCs and better spell penetration, these feats allow the higher level mages to blast away foes in far less time - i.e. a frost giant in 1 round as opposed to 3), I don't like the idea of 1st through 9th level spells becoming a deity's preferred method of attack because of quantity (of course, for substantially stronger beings there is little danger in this, as I don't imagine it would be possible to simulate the effects of most transcendent or omnific abilities through any combination of non-epic spells).  As higher level beings creep closer to the fundamental forces of the cosmos, they should be less and less inclined to opt for "standard" magic (which will seem more and more like parlor trickery) in favor of their emerging abilities. 



> If this is a joke pulled over the wool of my Wisdom 6, OK you win. If you're serious then I'm really confused.





 

Don't sell yourself short CRGreathouse*, I had your wisdom much higher than that.  

I'm seriously contemplating posting my stats (real world) in the hopes that U_K will use me as an iconic on the website.  

*BTW - I'm not sure I understood your question re: the 'terminal' ability for the transcendent class.  If it involves being "beyond" death then I have some ideas (drawing on an analogous situation in comic books).  And don't worry, I'll post any comments on the thread specifically dealing with the class.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Impeesa matey! 



			
				Impeesa said:
			
		

> Regarding your Toughness tweak: There is an Improved Toughness in Complete Warrior which gives +1 HP per HD (increases as you gain HD/levels). It can't be taken more than once, but stacks with all the various other toughness feats as usual. Do you think that would work better than replacing all versions of toughness outright?




I don't have the Complete Warrior and I wasn't aware of that feat. I don't see why they wouldn't let that feat stack?

Also as far as I know the Complete Warrior is not OGL right? So that feat is off limits to me.

My version would replace all the various toughness feats and stack with itself.

But if people want to use it, then thats up to them.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi CRGreathouse mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> That's absurdly expensive.  Even if the epic feat is overly powerful (you said +2 was better than +3), paying a Divine Gift/SDA for 1 point of fast healing is crazy... and a Cosmic ability for more?  Isn't that the cost of perpetual resurrection?
> 
> If this is a joke pulled over the wool of my Wisdom 6, OK you win.  If you're serious then I'm really confused.




I was just brainstorming out loud. I actually meant for the second Fast Healing ability to be Divine rather than Cosmic.

A few points of note.

- A cosmic ability converted into Fast Healing (epic feats) would bestow Fast Healing 60.

- WotC are themselves confused how to rate Fast Healing. Given that the Rapid Healing ring (in the ELH) costs 300,000 GP. That ring converts into a Divine Ability rather than a feat. 

This difference is probably representative of that often talked about PC (with Fast Healing/Regen) vs. NPC/Monster (with Fast Healing/Regen).

So even though Fast Healing 3 (lets say) is underpowered for a Divine Ability it is more DM friendly, even if its not balanced vs. NPCs/Monsters.

The alternative may just be to make the Fast Healing = HD/Levels a Divine Ability and forget about a buffer FH ability and just use the ELH FH epic feat as a prereq.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> That's all I was after -- confirmation that there are time-related abilities availible to those below Time Lords and above Greater Deities.  Thanks!


----------



## Drow Jones

*Multispell*



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> My instinct tells me to kick Multispell up to Divine Ability but remove the quickened bit altogether.
> 
> Then just allow as many quickened spells to be cast as people want, with the caveat that EACH quickened spell in a round has a cumulative -4 level penalty.



Howdy UK,

IMHO, the changes to existing feats/epic feats should be minimal. The above suggestion is too different from the original and introduces a new number to keep track of (your current caster level). It's going to confuse some people and slow down combat.

Multispell does not have a cap in Epic HB, because the EHB is designed to support theoretically infinite character levels. As you have constructed more detailed rules of advancement, which build on and expand the epic abilites and feats, you can limit the scaling and stacking of the epic feats.

Limiting the times a character can take Multispell is a simple solution as it fixes your problem (the amount of spells per round), but does not introduce new rules or require a complete revision. You could cap Multispell so you can take it, for example, a maximum of 4 times. Then you can have a divine ability/feat with Multispell as a requirement, which raises the cap with +2 spells per round and so on.

- DJ


----------



## Upper_Krust

historian said:
			
		

> Hey Krust!




Hiya mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> A distinct and dangerous possibility (quickened spell-like abilities and innate spells coupled with the 'automatic quicken' feat could make this a real problem).
> 
> While I like the 'quickened' and 'multispell' feats because they distinguish 17-20th level mages from 27th to 30th level mages (above and beyond higher spell DCs and better spell penetration, these feats allow the higher level mages to blast away foes in far less time - i.e. a frost giant in 1 round as opposed to 3), I don't like the idea of 1st through 9th level spells becoming a deity's preferred method of attack because of quantity (of course, for substantially stronger beings there is little danger in this, as I don't imagine it would be possible to simulate the effects of most transcendent or omnific abilities through any combination of non-epic spells).  As higher level beings creep closer to the fundamental forces of the cosmos, they should be less and less inclined to opt for "standard" magic (which will seem more and more like parlor trickery) in favor of their emerging abilities.




I will probabaly leave multispell intact in the first pdf and then address it specifically when I have more time to go over the data in the second pdf (Grimoire/Magic).



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Don't sell yourself short CRGreathouse*, I had your wisdom much higher than that.
> 
> I'm seriously contemplating posting my stats (real world) in the hopes that U_K will use me as an iconic on the website.  .


----------



## Upper_Krust

Drow Jones said:
			
		

> Howdy UK,




Hi DJ! 



			
				Drow Jones said:
			
		

> IMHO, the changes to existing feats/epic feats should be minimal. The above suggestion is too different from the original and introduces a new number to keep track of (your current caster level). It's going to confuse some people and slow down combat.




I agree. I really want to keep any changes to a bare minimum.

I may leave everything except Toughness (to +1 hp/HD or Level) and Great Smiting (no longer stacks) untouched, and then if people spot gross abuses of the rules involving multispell (or anything else) then I can change that for the print version.



			
				Drow Jones said:
			
		

> Multispell does not have a cap in Epic HB, because the EHB is designed to support theoretically infinite character levels. As you have constructed more detailed rules of advancement, which build on and expand the epic abilites and feats, you can limit the scaling and stacking of the epic feats.
> 
> Limiting the times a character can take Multispell is a simple solution as it fixes your problem (the amount of spells per round), but does not introduce new rules or require a complete revision. You could cap Multispell so you can take it, for example, a maximum of 4 times. Then you can have a divine ability/feat with Multispell as a requirement, which raises the cap with +2 spells per round and so on.




Well thats food for thought, though I'll really explore the possibilities of multispell better when I come to finish off the Grimoire section.


----------



## CRGreathouse

historian said:
			
		

> A distinct and dangerous possibility (quickened spell-like abilities and innate spells coupled with the 'automatic quicken' feat could make this a real problem).




For just the reasons you mention in your next paragraph, though, I like these feats and don't see them as a major issue with divine power -- presuming, of course, that no silly mistakes are made that would give them the ability to quicken all of their spell-like abilities or Alter Reality powers (which should stay standard actions).



			
				historin said:
			
		

> Don't sell yourself short CRGreathouse*, I had your wisdom much higher than that.




Well, I have rated my Wisdom as high as 8 before; 7 is my cannonical answer, but when I got around to thinking about how common a 7 was I changed it.

Hey, at least my Int is good, right?



			
				historian said:
			
		

> BTW - I'm not sure I understood your question re: the 'terminal' ability for the transcendent class.  If it involves being "beyond" death then I have some ideas (drawing on an analogous situation in comic books).  And don't worry, I'll post any comments on the thread specifically dealing with the class.




At this point, of course, I'm open to any suggestions. My question was about the 15th-level ability of the class: it should really be a great transcendence, a greater version of the monk's Perfect Self, but it just comes off as bland to me.

Any ideas, even those from comic books (  -- sorry, not a Krust-like fan), would be useful to me.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> - WotC are themselves confused how to rate Fast Healing. Given that the Rapid Healing ring (in the ELH) costs 300,000 GP. That ring converts into a Divine Ability rather than a feat.




Somewhat, but also remember that's just the first point surcharge -- beyond the first point, FH isn't that great.

Fast Healing 1 would be the weakest Divine Gift I can imagine... surely all the others are better?



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> The alternative may just be to make the Fast Healing = HD/Levels a Divine Ability and forget about a buffer FH ability and just use the ELH FH epic feat as a prereq.




This, I think, is an excellent conclusion.  In fact, if I may step out onto a limb, I will say that it is the correct conclusion.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey CR! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Somewhat, but also remember that's just the first point surcharge -- beyond the first point, FH isn't that great.
> 
> Fast Healing 1 would be the weakest Divine Gift I can imagine... surely all the others are better?




Yes its much too weak a Divine Ability in the aftermath of the ELH feats.

For the record, divine abilities are generally rated at between +1-1.5 CR.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> This, I think, is an excellent conclusion.  In fact, if I may step out onto a limb, I will say that it is the correct conclusion.




Thats probably what I will run with.


----------



## Fieari

I was once again thinking about the IH while planning my recent campaign.  I'm -really- looking forewards to it, since it seems to cover all the bases.  Specifically, I'd love to use it to design a god-level character race that features prominantly in the campaign.  Basically, I'd like to know whether your handbook has rules to cover the following-- I'm betting it does, but it's nice to _know_ for certain.

You said that as beings go up in power, they lose interest in smaller things.  I have a race of beings that feature prominently in my campaign which, as they gain power, GAIN interest in smaller things.  Would that mean that they're starting out in VERY high deity levels and then moving DOWN the ranks as they "level up"?  It seems that way at a glance to me...

Anyway, what REALLY caught my eye was that you mentioned a difference between planes and dimensions, which is something I also had to deal with.  Since both Phoenix and Dragon can work with time as well as with space, through what context do they move?  And of course, time is just a dimension...

The math of infinity DOES make sense to me, and I love it.  I started by reading Flatland, which explains dimensional things in story form.  Awesome book, was written in the 1800s by a school teacher to his (I think) elementary school kids.  It's that simple to pick up.

Anyway.  So if we're 3-D creatures, able to move any which way 3-D, but move only one way in 4-D... then you can extend that concept higher.  Extending 3 dimensions infinitely, you get past through to the future, each moment being a slice of three dimensions.  So 5-D would be extending 4-D infinitely, each "blank" being a slice of three dimensions.  I see this as the so called "trousers of time"... the tree of possibilities people talked about.  All the "might have beens".  If you can move freely in 4 dimensions, you're moving fixedly through 5.

Extending 5-D infinitely, each "blank" being a slice of a 5 dimensional system, I see this as the multiverse... the various planes and such.  Each plane has its own possibility tree, after all... so moving about 5-D freely, means moving about the planes fixedly.  6-D is then "the great wheel".

So what would 7-D be?  An infinite number of great wheels... the only way I can think to describe this would be "Narrative Sets".  You know, the Marvel Universe as compared to the DC universe.  Or to Robert Jordan's universe, or Peirs Anthony's, or Douglas Adam's, or the real one.  After all, you can have a campaign that destroys "all planes in existance" but the real world isn't effected...

And that's where my imagination gives up.  8-D would be an infinite number of narrative sets, but I can't imagine this.  On the other hand, there's no reason to suppose that you can't extend 7-D infinitely... in fact, there could very well be an infinite progression of dimensions.

Is this the way you are handling "Dimensions"?  Is it at all similar?  I need to know, because I have characters that fight between dimensions.  Any being that can move freely in a higher dimension is infinitely more powerful than a lower dimensional being, after all... to put it simply, a time traveler could kill you yesterday, or your parents, or now even by stabbing you a moment before.  But two time travelers, and I mean REAL time travelers as in someone who can move forewards or backwards with similar ease, not just "go to an earlier date and move forewards as usual" would be able to have a swordfight that's a little more interesing... having to worry about the additional directions of being attacked from the past or the future instead of just left/right/up/down/forewards/backwards.  But those too.

I was thinking that when applied to a game, a higher dimensional creature is just assumed to be able to dispatch out of hand a lower dimensional creature.  But for equal dimensional duels... those can get interesting.  Despite not being able to imagine what an 8th dimensional battle could possibly look like (or a 9th, or a 10th, etc etc etc) mathematics could easily describe rules for it.  Each dimension adds two more flanks to worry about... for a game, it means having to have your character train to pay attention to those two additional flanks each time.  Something that could scale.  Do you have anything like that?

The really neat thing is that with this system, as you mentioned, each dimension could have it's own supreme being (hehe... finding the 2-D supreme being might be amusing, and of course, the 1-D supreme being is the only being in the 1-D world, which is even more amusing...) and that there is always something higher.  You gotta imagine though... could there be something at the top of even all this?  The Infinite-D supreme being?  Does your system handle that?

Heh.  Lots of theoretical math concepts here.  Hope I don't overwhelm you.

Definitely looking forewards to it comming out.  You will be recieving my money at that time.  Hope additional word comes.


----------



## Anabstercorian

There is a book you would LOVE, called The Boy Who Reversed Himself by William Sleator.  TERRIBLE title, really fantastic story about translation in to higher-dimensional realities, and the organization that keeps them from interacting any more than necessary.  It raises wild possibilities.  Check it out at your local library if at all possible.


----------



## CRGreathouse

I have a question about the epic feats you considered revising.  In your system for rating CR, there's really no accounting for stacking rules: a +1 attack bonus is worth a fixed amount, so there's no real reason under your system to care if Weapon Focus (for example) stacks with itself.

(This is in contrast to systems that rate bonuses more strongly the higher they become -- for example, +4 attack could be 16 times better than +1 instead of 4 times better.)

With this in mind, why do you see the stacking of Great Smiting as such a major issue, one of the only feats you'd change in the whole ELH?  It doesn't even seem that popular of a feat to me.

Granted, it was written for 3.0 which assumes smites would be 1/day.  Still, though, I'd expect a change to weaken the feat in that case rather than eliminate stacking.

Care to elucidate your mental process here?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Fieari! 

sorry for the delay guys, had some stuff to take care of today, so I was away from the computer.



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> I was once again thinking about the IH while planning my recent campaign.  I'm -really- looking forewards to it, since it seems to cover all the bases.




Well I think it does, at least it covers every question ever asked of it...and thats a helluva lot a' questions. 



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> Specifically, I'd love to use it to design a god-level character race that features prominantly in the campaign.




Like the LeShay for instance?



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> Basically, I'd like to know whether your handbook has rules to cover the following-- I'm betting it does, but it's nice to _know_ for certain.
> 
> You said that as beings go up in power, they lose interest in smaller things.




Well, like soldiers. The higher up the ranks you go, the less you concentrate on the individual.

But the higher up you go the more you generally become focused on concepts and less on the individual. 



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> I have a race of beings that feature prominently in my campaign which, as they gain power, GAIN interest in smaller things.




Can you give an example?



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> Would that mean that they're starting out in VERY high deity levels and then moving DOWN the ranks as they "level up"?  It seems that way at a glance to me...




I'd need to hear more about them, though I don't think so.



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> Anyway, what REALLY caught my eye was that you mentioned a difference between planes and dimensions, which is something I also had to deal with.




There are lots of ways of addressing it, I sort of like to be able to explain things scientifically as well as esoterically.



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> Since both Phoenix and Dragon can work with time as well as with space, through what context do they move?  And of course, time is just a dimension...




Phoenix & Dragon...?



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> The math of infinity DOES make sense to me, and I love it.  I started by reading Flatland, which explains dimensional things in story form.  Awesome book, was written in the 1800s by a school teacher to his (I think) elementary school kids.  It's that simple to pick up.
> 
> Anyway.  So if we're 3-D creatures, able to move any which way 3-D, but move only one way in 4-D... then you can extend that concept higher.  Extending 3 dimensions infinitely, you get past through to the future, each moment being a slice of three dimensions.  So 5-D would be extending 4-D infinitely, each "blank" being a slice of three dimensions.  I see this as the so called "trousers of time"... the tree of possibilities people talked about.  All the "might have beens".  If you can move freely in 4 dimensions, you're moving fixedly through 5.




I'm with you up to this point, however after this my own ideas diverge from yours.



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> Extending 5-D infinitely, each "blank" being a slice of a 5 dimensional system, I see this as the multiverse... the various planes and such.  Each plane has its own possibility tree, after all... so moving about 5-D freely, means moving about the planes fixedly.  6-D is then "the great wheel".




The difficulty I have with your approximation of the 6th is that it causes us to assume that each plane has its own 'you', does it not?



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> So what would 7-D be?  An infinite number of great wheels... the only way I can think to describe this would be "Narrative Sets".  You know, the Marvel Universe as compared to the DC universe.  Or to Robert Jordan's universe, or Peirs Anthony's, or Douglas Adam's, or the real one.  After all, you can have a campaign that destroys "all planes in existance" but the real world isn't effected...
> 
> And that's where my imagination gives up.  8-D would be an infinite number of narrative sets, but I can't imagine this.  On the other hand, there's no reason to suppose that you can't extend 7-D infinitely... in fact, there could very well be an infinite progression of dimensions.
> 
> Is this the way you are handling "Dimensions"?  Is it at all similar?




Its similar.

I have 12 Dimensions. Although they go from 0-11th

0 of course being Byss, the place of nothingness and Entropy.

11 being the Akashic Records, or M-Dimension (Mother Dimension) for those of you who like their science.

1-3 is of course space.

4 is of course time.

5-10 I'll keep under wraps for now. Three are fairly obvious and three are not so obvious.



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> I need to know, because I have characters that fight between dimensions.  Any being that can move freely in a higher dimension is infinitely more powerful than a lower dimensional being, after all... to put it simply, a time traveler could kill you yesterday, or your parents, or now even by stabbing you a moment before.  But two time travelers, and I mean REAL time travelers as in someone who can move forewards or backwards with similar ease, not just "go to an earlier date and move forewards as usual" would be able to have a swordfight that's a little more interesing... having to worry about the additional directions of being attacked from the past or the future instead of just left/right/up/down/forewards/backwards.  But those too.




Indeed. 

However, there are beings who may not be of that dimension that are protected against it.

eg. One of the Cosmic Abilities is called Slipstream. This means you exist in a self contained temporal bubble. Even though you cannot travel through time, no one can affect you by temporal means.

Obviously I have other dimensions covered as well. 



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> I was thinking that when applied to a game, a higher dimensional creature is just assumed to be able to dispatch out of hand a lower dimensional creature.




See above.

Also just because something is of the 6th-Dimension, doesn't necessarily mean its of the first five. 



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> But for equal dimensional duels... those can get interesting.  Despite not being able to imagine what an 8th dimensional battle could possibly look like (or a 9th, or a 10th, etc etc etc) mathematics could easily describe rules for it.




One of the illustrations I am doing for the book is a 10D battle.



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> Each dimension adds two more flanks to worry about... for a game, it means having to have your character train to pay attention to those two additional flanks each time.  Something that could scale.  Do you have anything like that?




I am not sure I agree with that assessment. Space has 3 dimensions, but time is itself only a single dimension.



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> The really neat thing is that with this system, as you mentioned, each dimension could have it's own supreme being (hehe... finding the 2-D supreme being might be amusing, and of course, the 1-D supreme being is the only being in the 1-D world, which is even more amusing...) and that there is always something higher.  You gotta imagine though... could there be something at the top of even all this?  The Infinite-D supreme being?  Does your system handle that?




If people want to create beings above the Akashic Records they are free to do so but I don't think it will be necessary when you see the book.



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> Heh.  Lots of theoretical math concepts here.  Hope I don't overwhelm you.




I don't overwhelm that easy. 



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> Definitely looking forewards to it comming out.  You will be recieving my money at that time.  Hope additional word comes.




I appreciate the support mate!


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Anabstercorian! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> There is a book you would LOVE, called The Boy Who Reversed Himself by William Sleator.  TERRIBLE title, really fantastic story about translation in to higher-dimensional realities, and the organization that keeps them from interacting any more than necessary.  It raises wild possibilities.  Check it out at your local library if at all possible.




I went to the local library today and ordered it, says they should have it in a week. Thanks.

I also asked about the Mysteries of the Aleph (historian) but they said they didn't have that book (yet?). Though they did have three books by that author.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi CRGreathouse mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I have a question about the epic feats you considered revising.  In your system for rating CR, there's really no accounting for stacking rules: a +1 attack bonus is worth a fixed amount, so there's no real reason under your system to care if Weapon Focus (for example) stacks with itself.
> 
> (This is in contrast to systems that rate bonuses more strongly the higher they become -- for example, +4 attack could be 16 times better than +1 instead of 4 times better.)
> 
> With this in mind, why do you see the stacking of Great Smiting as such a major issue, one of the only feats you'd change in the whole ELH?  It doesn't even seem that popular of a feat to me.
> 
> Granted, it was written for 3.0 which assumes smites would be 1/day.  Still, though, I'd expect a change to weaken the feat in that case rather than eliminate stacking.
> 
> Care to elucidate your mental process here?




Obviously I had 3.5 in mind.

A hasted 30th-level Paladin with Great Smiting x4 could EASILY dish out 900 damage against an evil opponent. Even assuming the paladin misses with one attack, hes still pretty much guaranteed to kill any evil opponent below Lesser Power.

Compare that against any four feats for any other class. Theres nothing that gives you that much of an advantage.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> A hasted 30th-level Paladin with Great Smiting x4 could EASILY dish out 900 damage against an evil opponent. Even assuming the paladin misses with one attack, hes still pretty much guaranteed to kill any evil opponent below Lesser Power.
> 
> Compare that against any four feats for any other class. Theres nothing that gives you that much of an advantage.




So why not halve the benefit (1.5 times class level instead of double) instead of limiting the numbver of times it can be taken?


----------



## Fieari

> Well, like soldiers. The higher up the ranks you go, the less you concentrate on the individual.
> 
> But the higher up you go the more you generally become focused on concepts and less on the individual.
> 
> Can you give an example?



Well, I had been trying to avoid going into too much depth of my own stuff, since this thread is more focusing on yours, but...

My god-like races are, as I very briefly mentioned, known as Phoenii and Dragons.  They're very loosely based on a concept I found in a comic book (well, actually, if anything deserves being called a graphic novel it's this) called "Thieves and Kings"... which describes a flat world that expands over time.  And functions something like a cookie.  A small cookie you can hold in your hand, but a cookie the size of a tabletop would crumble to bits if you picked it up.  In Thieves & Kings, the Dragons' role is to eat the edges of the world so it never gets too big. (Aside: one of the major plot points is a runt dragon (only the size of a single mountain range) who decides to go eat cities instead of hills)

I took that concept, applied it to planes instead of just a single world, and added a flipside to the dragons... beings who are the ones causing the world to grow.  Phoenii.  A Phoenix and a Dragon will invariably hate each other, as the Phoenix will see the dragons as destroyers of worlds, esspecially destroyers of worlds they made, and the dragon will see the phoenix as the cause to the whole cookie problem and a huge troublemaker.  And they often fight over specific worlds too.

The thing is, while a dragon acts like you said, starting small and gaining power over, for lack of a better word, time (both dragon and phoenix can, as I mentioned, move completely freely through time) the phoenix starts LARGE and works his way down.  To put it another way, begins with a blunt axe and then moves on to a surgical knife, except that the blunt axe in question is astronomically huge, and the surgical knife can eventually become microscopic in scope....

So while they being being able to devestate stars or tear apart planes (although, only a completely insane phoenix would ever dream of doing so-- and they hunt down their insane to prevent such) they can't do jack on a local level.  But since they're interested in CRAFTING worlds, all the important bits are in the details... so as they progress in power, they go from galactic scale efforts to system efforts to planatary efforts right on down to the point where they start sculpting histories and cultures and such.

Which, as I mentioned, sounds to me like in your system, they're going DOWN in devine ranks as they do so.  I like to think of it as gaining more -control- though.  The ability to change only -thus- much, no more, no less.  They're artisians.

How does that fit in?


Additionally, I think my phoenii would fit well into your worship system, because they're autoemotovores.  They feed off emotion, but rather than feeding off the emotion of others, they feed off their own... so to stay healthy, they need to make friends, have a social life, that sort of thing.  Which while not -quite- being worship, fits in close enough that I think I could probably borrow the rules and adapt.  The dragons would fit PERFECTLY into the worship system already, as the dragons tend to be the opposite of the phoenii in every respect, so the dragons are just plain emotovores, and they DO feed off the emotions of others.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi CR mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> So why not halve the benefit (1.5 times class level instead of double) instead of limiting the numbver of times it can be taken?




Well, because I don't think that alleviates the problem, only delays it slightly.

Also I am not really limiting the number of times it can be taken, I am only raising the bar each time as it were.

If people don't want to accept that ruling then thats fine though I have went over the math and I can't see anyway of balancing it because you are getting a multiplier that increases on two fronts (level and the multiplier itself). You can have one, but two can just be exploited so easily.

As you know I want to change as little as possible, but this one can turn into a horror story left unchecked.


----------



## historian

Howdy Krust!



> I also asked about the Mysteries of the Aleph (historian) but they said they didn't have that book (yet?). Though they did have three books by that author.




I could get you a copy in exchange for a pre-publication copy of the IH.  

I think you'll enjoy it if you have the chance to get your hands on it -- tying in mysticism with theoretical math.


----------



## Alzrius

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I went to the local library today and ordered it, says they should have it in a week. Thanks.




I love that guy's books, I made our school library order almost all of them when I was going there. _Interstellar Pig_ is probably my favorite.


----------



## Anabstercorian

Alzrius said:
			
		

> I love that guy's books, I made our school library order almost all of them when I was going there. _Interstellar Pig_ is probably my favorite.




There was a sequel to that book, but I never saw it.


----------



## Alzrius

Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> There was a sequel to that book, but I never saw it.




Are you sure? I never heard of a sequel. What was it called?


----------



## Upper_Krust

historian said:
			
		

> Howdy Krust!




Hi historian mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I could get you a copy in exchange for a pre-publication copy of the IH.




I'll think about it.

...okay, thought about it, no deal.  



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I think you'll enjoy it if you have the chance to get your hands on it -- tying in mysticism with theoretical math.




I'm sure I'll grab it eventually.


----------



## historian

Evening (or early morning) Krust!  



> I'll think about it.
> 
> ...okay, thought about it, no deal.




Shucks.


----------



## Anabstercorian

Alzrius said:
			
		

> Are you sure? I never heard of a sequel. What was it called?




I'm not sure.  It had Pig in the title somewhere.


----------



## Zhnov

*patient, but twitching*

Almighty One (UK),

How goes the effort with the web site, and have you thought about taking pre-orders?

Orlic


----------



## Fieari

Ooh, I'd love to pre-order... then I could stop obsessivly checking this thread daily and just wait for the e-mail or the book to arrive in the mail or whatever.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Orlic Pazafar said:
			
		

> Almighty One (UK),




Hey there Orlic! 



			
				Orlic Pazafar said:
			
		

> How goes the effort with the web site,




Its going okay. I have the webspace now (thanks to sonofapreachermans wrangling) and I should hopefully have the domain name within a week. Its just a bloody nightmare trying to operate on the web without a credit card, and of course with no money you can't get a card to begin with so the catch 22 strikes again. But I'll get it all sorted soon enough. 

I have some previews (inc. that list of epic feats), reviews, monsters, and some other stuff on the website up to this point. 

Not tons of content, but that sort of stuff snowballs given time.



			
				Orlic Pazafar said:
			
		

> and have you thought about taking pre-orders?




To be honest I haven't. What is the major significance of pre-ordering?


----------



## Sledge

You get money now. People that want the book get it as soon as it is available.


----------



## Fieari

There's that, and also that it might provide another spur to get you working faster, what with the legal obligation and all.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey guys! 



			
				Sledge said:
			
		

> You get money now. People that want the book get it as soon as it is available.




That sounds interesting, I'll give it some thought. Though (not to tempt fate or anything) what would happen if I were to get run over by a bus or something...? Wouldn't those people be out of pocket. Maybe its just best to wait.  



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> There's that, and also that it might provide another spur to get you working faster, what with the legal obligation and all.




By the way Fieari you might be interested in this:

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=90553

Some stuff about Phoenixes.


----------



## Knight Otu

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=90553
> 
> Some stuff about Phoenixes.



 I guess that _technically_, that is true. 
 Well, it should be something for those interested in epic spells, anyway.

 (Thanks for linking, UK!)


----------



## Upper_Krust

*Great Smiting*

Hi all! 

Returning briefly to the question of Great Smiting.

I saw this thread:

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=258489

Going over the numbers that would seem to permit Great Smiting to stack. However, you could never proffer a feat* which then permitted multiple uses of smite in the same round.

*as suggested in the thread.

So that gives us two options.

#1 Great Smiting epic feat allowed to stack, smite can only be used once/round.

#2 Great Smiting epic feat does not stack. Smite can be used any number of times/round. Smiting can be further increased with Divine and Cosmic abilities.

Do people here have a preference?


----------



## Kavon

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hi all!



Hey U_K 



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> #1 Great Smiting epic feat allowed to stack, smite can only be used once/round.



I think I'll vote for this one 
It would allow for further improvement, without it getting out of whack.
Additional times per round would probably be a nice 'more powerful' ability to offer as well, though.. Just so that you have the freedom to achieve it.


----------



## Upper_Krust

*Stacking Feats*

Hey all! 

...and thanks for the reply Kavon mate. 

While I am here, does anyone have the Complete Warrior or Complete Divine yet? Just curious about creating a full list of feats that stack. With any that are OGL going into the IH as feat packages and those that are not OGL will probably get a mention on the website at some stage.


----------



## tauton_ikhnos

Nothing in either book is OGL. However, the Divine section of the SRD includes quite a few feats that are also in Complete Divine.


----------



## CRGreathouse

I suppose you could try to do both at once: "If this is your first smite this round, you deal double (triple, quad, etc.) damage."

That way the core rules of smiting aren't changed, but the character has a strong incentive to limit it to 1/round (since with, say, 3 Great Smitings the damage would be +120 for the first each round but only +30 for each other -- wasting 90 damage for each smite you do beyond the first in a round).


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi guys! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I suppose you could try to do both at once: "If this is your first smite this round, you deal double (triple, quad, etc.) damage."
> 
> That way the core rules of smiting aren't changed, but the character has a strong incentive to limit it to 1/round (since with, say, 3 Great Smitings the damage would be +120 for the first each round but only +30 for each other -- wasting 90 damage for each smite you do beyond the first in a round).




That would then cap Great Smiting to the number of attacks you could make per round, as well as confuse things a bit more.

A better solution may just be to make Great Smiting a Divine Ability rather than an Epic Feat. That seems to solve everything.

The problem I have is that not changing things allows you to have Great Smiting x40 by min maxing a 30th-level Demigod.

Now +1200 Smiting Damage is no small matter. It effectively means you are likely to kill a typical evil lesser deity IN ONE HIT with no save! Or indeed any Abomination.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> That would then cap Great Smiting to the number of attacks you could make per round, as well as confuse things a bit more.




It wouldn't cap uses at all, but only 1/round could get the feat's benefits.  Isn't that essentially the same as your change, except that this allows you to (possibly) 'waste' your smites all in a round for a bit more damage?

That is, if you're concerned with characters taking Great Smiting x 40, then limiting them to 1 smite/round makes their max smite damage 41 x their level (for 1 smite), instead of 205 x their level (for 5 smites).  Using my variant they could get 41 x their level (for 1 smite) or 45 x their level (for 5 smites).

This assumes they somehow have GS 40 times, but even so I think mine's more sane.


----------



## Upper_Krust

HI CRGreathouse mate! 

Okay, I think I picked you up wrong above, I see what you mean now...at least I think I do.   



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> It wouldn't cap uses at all, but only 1/round could get the feat's benefits.  Isn't that essentially the same as your change, except that this allows you to (possibly) 'waste' your smites all in a round for a bit more damage?




No. My change lets you use Smite any number of times per round (as the rulebooks suggest). So if you had five attacks (one from haste), then you could unleash five smites per round.

This seems to be in keeping with the core rulebooks.

The problem is when you introduce Great Smiting and let it stack, because its a double multiplier (level x great smiting bonus).

As a mere epic feat this is grossly overpowered. By my reckoning a feat increasing damage by about 1d8 vs. evil would be balanced (2d6 is acceptable since it doesn't stack with either itself or magic items). Of course the number of smiting attempts is itself limited so you could probably double that figure to 2d8 and it will still easily be balanced.

However, because Great Smiting multiplies with your level it gets out of hand too quickly.

Lets say we have a 30th-level character who has taken Great Smiting 4 times (so smite damage = Level x5 = +150, they can smite 7/day or better with feats).

Balanced Damage at this juncture would more likely be 10d8 (2d8 x5) = 45 damage on average.

Increase the example to 40th-level, with a character who has taken Great Smiting 6 times (Level x7 = +280, they can smite 10/day or more)

Balanced Damage at this juncture would be 14d8 = 63

So the difference at 30th is x3.3, the difference at 40th is x4.4, and these are totally conservative uses of Great Smiting!

Over the same distance, a Fighter would be lucky to add more than 10-20 points to damage.

So your 40th-level Paladin is going to be dealing about 250 damage more than your 40th-level Fighter versus evil aligned opponents (likely 50% of all antagonists). Thats WITHOUT min/maxing. Thats BEFORE throwing Divine Abilities into the mix.

That to me illustrates that Great Smiting, as a stackable epic feat, is broken.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> That is, if you're concerned with characters taking Great Smiting x 40, then limiting them to 1 smite/round makes their max smite damage 41 x their level (for 1 smite), instead of 205 x their level (for 5 smites).  Using my variant they could get 41 x their level (for 1 smite) or 45 x their level (for 5 smites).
> 
> This assumes they somehow have GS 40 times, but even so I think mine's more sane.




I would rather change the epic feat than the core rule. Added to which, limiting it to 1/round doesn't really solve anything. You could still min/max a 30-40th-level Paladin into killing any of the Lords of Evil (from the BoVD) in a single hit.

One possibility may be:

Great Smiting (Epic) = Level x2 (Balanced 4d8 = 18)
Superior Smiting (Divine) = Level x3 (Balanced 14d8 = 63)
Perfect Smiting (Cosmic) = Level x4 (Balanced 46d8 = 207)

None of which stack.

Of course that may seem harsh in light of the current use of Great Smiting, but it is much better balanced.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Great Smiting (Epic) = Level x2 (Balanced 4d8 = 18)
> Superior Smiting (Divine) = Level x3 (Balanced 14d8 = 63)
> Perfect Smiting (Cosmic) = Level x4 (Balanced 46d8 = 207)
> 
> None of which stack.
> 
> Of course that may seem harsh in light of the current use of Great Smiting, but it is much better balanced.




That makes Perfect Smiting exceptionally weak, and Superior Smiting somewhat weak.

Essentially, the three all do the same thing (add +level to damage), but the last is a cosmic ability!

Really, I'd think Great (Epic) = x2, Superior (Divine) = x4, Perfect (Cosmic) = x10 or something -- so each increases more than the last.

Alternatively, give Superior and Perfect other abilities (increase attack roll, make damage harder to resist, etc.) -- but do something so the Cosmic ability is better than the epic feat!


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> That makes Perfect Smiting exceptionally weak, and Superior Smiting somewhat weak.




Weak compared to what though, only the current broken rules.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Essentially, the three all do the same thing (add +level to damage), but the last is a cosmic ability!




Cosmic Abilities are roughly equivalent to between 15-30 feats. That said, most of my cosmic abilities are things that cannot be gained through any number of feats because they are something completely different.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Really, I'd think Great (Epic) = x2, Superior (Divine) = x4, Perfect (Cosmic) = x10 or something -- so each increases more than the last.




I was considering x4 (Divine) and x8 (Cosmic). Rest assured it will definately not be more than this. I'll go over the math and see whats best though.

In fact I may not even have Perfect Smiting within my list of 64 cosmic abilities in the IH, simply because I have far more interesting abilities to proffer.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Alternatively, give Superior and Perfect other abilities (increase attack roll, make damage harder to resist, etc.) -- but do something so the Cosmic ability is better than the epic feat!




I don't like giving any abilities multiple facets. Simply because it dilutes the meaning of the ability itself.

eg. If you have Divine Monk comprised of 5 epic feats, then its really not a divine 'ability' as such but simply a package of multiple 'abilities' disguised as a divine ability.

I prefer to boil abilities down to their smallest components.

Though I do have a list of feat packages for the classes, but they are seperated from the actual divine abilities.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I don't like giving any abilities multiple facets. Simply because it dilutes the meaning of the ability itself.




I agree, but I still think giving multiple abilities would have been better than dealing x2/x3/x4 damage, which is too poweful at epiv/too weak at Cosmic.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi CR mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I agree, but I still think giving multiple abilities would have been better than dealing x2/x3/x4 damage, which is too poweful at epiv/too weak at Cosmic.




I've went over the math and x2/x3/x4 is still the best solution. However, its almost certain that I won't have a Perfect Smiting Cosmic Ability in the IH.


----------



## historian

Howdy Krust!
 

I had a few questions for you as we move closer to the date:

I think you mentioned previously that IG Thanos rates out at about CR 4000.  Would he be representative of the sun-total of power in a universe?  Would he be able to destroy a Universe/Plane/Dimenson?  How much damage could he expect to do in a single attack?  Would he be beyond alignment (or at least eligible for that sort of thing)?

Thanks in advance.


----------



## Upper_Krust

historian said:
			
		

> Howdy Krust!




Hi historian mate!  



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I had a few questions for you as we move closer to the date:




Fire away! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I think you mentioned previously that IG Thanos rates out at about CR 4000.




I'll know exactly when everything finished.

I have been considering scrapping the Metempiric Powers altogether, and just adding more Cosmic Powers. I mean the Metempiric Powers likely are just there for show, whereas the cosmic powers (which can be taken by Immortals) are of actual use. Also I have more than a dozen surplus cosmic powers and I am skeptical about some of the Metempiric Powers.

Any thoughts on this?

I mean I know people might have been interested in reading them, but from a practical perspective I think having more cosmic powers makes more sense.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Would he be representative of the sun-total of power in a universe?




Not necessarily, though he may be the most powerful individual in that universe.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Would he be able to destroy a Universe/Plane/Dimenson?




Depends on how much he invests in the assault and what abilities he has.

It also depends on what damage system you use (Comic Book* or Realistic)

*Like d20 Modern.

Extrapolating d20 Modern; 128d6 is a low yield nuke.

It can be a rude awakening to shift deities from one reality to another. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> How much damage could he expect to do in a single attack?




Variable. As above this depends on how much he invests in the assault and what abilities he has.

Ultimately anything is possible.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Would he be beyond alignment (or at least eligible for that sort of thing)?




Maybe not immediately (he would still retain his individuality), but certainly in the long term yes.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Thanks in advance.




Anytime mate.


----------



## historian

Howdy Krust!  



> I have been considering scrapping the Metempiric Powers altogether, and just adding more Cosmic Powers. I mean the Metempiric Powers likely are just there for show, whereas the cosmic powers (which can be taken by Immortals) are of actual use. Also I have more than a dozen surplus cosmic powers and I am skeptical about some of the Metempiric Powers.
> 
> Any thoughts on this?




My impression (and I'm only familiar with one, perhaps two, of your metempiric powers) is that I'd like you to leave em' in there.  

I think part of your appeal as a game designer/developer (although certainly only one) is that you are willing to go out on a limb and attempt to 'define' uber-powerful beings via RPG mechanics.  Now I certainly think that you would be going where no one in d20 has gone if you stopped at Galactus-level beings, you might feel like you've left "money on the table" so to speak.  If your cosmology handles beings and abilities above this level of power, then by all means go for it.

Of course, I realize that some of this stuf is unlikely to have much practical value in a 'linear' campaign (i.e. there is almost no forseeable way to move your 1st level character to 10,000th level) I view the upper end stuff being used as backdrop and in 'one-shot' gaming sessions that could be a great deal of fun.

And, on another note, I couldn't speak to whether 8 metempiric abilities is enough, too many, etc.  Intuitively, I like the idea of having more rather than less, but they should all 'fit'.



> I mean I know people might have been interested in reading them, but from a practical perspective I think having more cosmic powers makes more sense.




I agree 100% that people will get more use out of the cosmic than the metempiric abilities.  Would it be possible to add to the roster of cosmic abilities w/o reducing the number of metempiric abilities (or re-vamping the entire system)?



> Extrapolating d20 Modern; 128d6 is a low yield nuke.




Interesting, by low yield are we speaking in terms of kilotons rather than megatons?

Thanks!


----------



## Upper_Krust

historian said:
			
		

> Howdy Krust!




Hiya mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> My impression (and I'm only familiar with one, perhaps two, of your metempiric powers) is that I'd like you to leave em' in there.




He he! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I think part of your appeal as a game designer/developer (although certainly only one) is that you are willing to go out on a limb and attempt to 'define' uber-powerful beings via RPG mechanics.  Now I certainly think that you would be going where no one in d20 has gone if you stopped at Galactus-level beings, you might feel like you've left "money on the table" so to speak.  If your cosmology handles beings and abilities above this level of power, then by all means go for it.




Even leaving out the Metempiric powers the book is way beyond Galactus level! Metempiric powers are beyond Living Tribunal level. 

I mean to be fair its pretty much only the Supreme Being who can gain Metempiric Powers anyway, so they seem to be fairly redundant in a way. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Of course, I realize that some of this stuf is unlikely to have much practical value in a 'linear' campaign (i.e. there is almost no forseeable way to move your 1st level character to 10,000th level) I view the upper end stuff being used as backdrop and in 'one-shot' gaming sessions that could be a great deal of fun.




Even then, they are so powerful that really you would need to be running a party of Time Lords just to survive the encounter.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> And, on another note, I couldn't speak to whether 8 metempiric abilities is enough, too many, etc.  Intuitively, I like the idea of having more rather than less, but they should all 'fit'.




I may even have too many powers if thats possible. My abilities chapter is more than twice the size of the Feats Chapter in the PHB.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I agree 100% that people will get more use out of the cosmic than the metempiric abilities.  Would it be possible to add to the roster of cosmic abilities w/o reducing the number of metempiric abilities (or re-vamping the entire system)?




Of course it would but I have to draw the line somewhere.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Interesting, by low yield are we speaking in terms of kilotons rather than megatons?




Yes, something akin to Hiroshima level. Meaning the Orcus (from the BoVD) could survive such a blast.


----------



## Anabstercorian

Dump the Metempiric abilities and give them away for free!  More cosmic powers!


----------



## Fieari

I'd also vote for leaving metaempiric things in.  My PCs may never touch them, but NPCs?  Need to be able to pin down what they can do.

Although, my PCs may at some point become a party of 4 Time Lords.  They'll need a challenge at that point, now won't they...


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Anabstercorian and Fieari! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> Dump the Metempiric abilities and give them away for free!  More cosmic powers!




Heh heh! 



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> I'd also vote for leaving metaempiric things in. My PCs may never touch them, but NPCs? Need to be able to pin down what they can do.




You understand of course that virtually only GOD can have Metempiric Powers. 



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> Although, my PCs may at some point become a party of 4 Time Lords. They'll need a challenge at that point, now won't they...




You know if you say it fast enough, Time Lords don't sound that powerful.


----------



## -Eä-

Hey

I think it is a good thing that your Powers Chapter is big. After all, you need reference and all the things that follows. However, it may be a good idea to create more cosmic abilities to have in the book and release the Metaempiric Powers in a Web Enhancement. However, if dropping Metaempiric Powers affects some other part of your work, you should leave them in the book.


----------



## Upper_Krust

-Eä- said:
			
		

> Hey




Hi Eä mate! 



			
				-Eä- said:
			
		

> I think it is a good thing that your Powers Chapter is big.




Doesn't make writing it any easier. 



			
				-Eä- said:
			
		

> After all, you need reference and all the things that follows. However, it may be a good idea to create more cosmic abilities to have in the book and release the Metaempiric Powers in a Web Enhancement. However, if dropping Metaempiric Powers affects some other part of your work, you should leave them in the book.




Perhaps I could do that. Then if people think the Metempiric Powers add anything I could always slot them back into the Print Version.


----------



## historian

Howdy Krust!  



> Even leaving out the Metempiric powers the book is way beyond Galactus level! Metempiric powers are beyond Living Tribunal level.




Sweet!  



> I mean to be fair its pretty much only the Supreme Being who can gain Metempiric Powers anyway, so they seem to be fairly redundant in a way.




I see your point -- there may be little difference between Akashic Memory and Omnipotence in game terms, but I like the idea of having different alternatives for flavor (of course, you may view these abilities as mutually exclusive, but that's likely debatable).



> Even then, they are so powerful that really you would need to be running a party of Time Lords just to survive the encounter.




Cool, I love this high level talk!  

Although if the metempiric abilities are survivable (at all) then one could argue that they are not redundant.



> I may even have too many powers if thats possible. My abilities chapter is more than twice the size of the Feats Chapter in the PHB.




This is a testament to your imagination.  It's a negative in that it increases your costs of bringing the IH to market, but I don't envision any gamer or DM shying away from the IH because it has too many powers.  



> Of course it would but I have to draw the line somewhere.




Indeed.  This, of course, is a tough issue on every front.  I'm sure that whatever you decide will be 'right on'.  



> Perhaps I could do that. Then if people think the Metempiric Powers add anything I could always slot them back into the Print Version.




This, depending on how executed, could work well.



> Yes, something akin to Hiroshima level. Meaning the Orcus (from the BoVD) could survive such a blast.




That sounds right to me.   

Thanks dude - hope the feedback helps rather than complicates things.


----------



## Upper_Krust

historian said:
			
		

> Howdy Krust!




Hiya mate!  



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Sweet!




I'll have to sort Galactus out for the website, would I have to call him Galactor or something I wonder? I'm still not sure if I can get away with the stats for Godzilla.    



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I see your point -- there may be little difference between Akashic Memory and Omnipotence in game terms, but I like the idea of having different alternatives for flavor (of course, you may view these abilities as mutually exclusive, but that's likely debatable).




I see any such alternatives being philosophical rather than mechanical though. Which is why the Metempiric Powers may not be relevant.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Cool, I love this high level talk!




I wonder can anyone guess the names of possible Time Lords from world mythology? 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Although if the metempiric abilities are survivable (at all) then one could argue that they are not redundant.




Well the quick answer is yes and no.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> This is a testament to your imagination.  It's a negative in that it increases your costs of bringing the IH to market,




I dunno, I hadn't really thought about it increasing the costs.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> but I don't envision any gamer or DM shying away from the IH because it has too many powers.




I suppose.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Indeed.  This, of course, is a tough issue on every front.  I'm sure that whatever you decide will be 'right on'.




Thats the idea. I think in future projects I am going to have to work closely with an editor who can tell me how to close chapters better.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> This, depending on how executed, could work well.




My gut instinct tells me they are unnecessary, and not up to the standard of the other powers, certainly in terms of practicality.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> That sounds right to me.
> 
> Thanks dude - hope the feedback helps rather than complicates things.




Of course! 

The only one who complicates things is me unfortunately.


----------



## historian

Hello Krust!  



> I see any such alternatives being philosophical rather than mechanical though. Which is why the Metempiric Powers may not be relevant.
> 
> My gut instinct tells me they are unnecessary, and not up to the standard of the other powers, certainly in terms of practicality.




Makes sense to me, although I will miss seeing the 'Akashic Memory'.  Even if the metempiric 'abilities' don't make the cut, I encourage you to preserve them in draft form, in the event you decide to release them later as I would love to see them at some point.  

Any chance you can tell us anything about the other 7?   

Also, if metempiric abilities are left out, will you have other ways to distinguish supernals from eternals? 



> I wonder can anyone guess the names of possible Time Lords from world mythology?




Ahura Mazda?  Angra Mainyu?



> I'll have to sort Galactus out for the website, would I have to call him Galactor or something I wonder? I'm still not sure if I can get away with the stats for Godzilla.




Cool, I'd love to see 'Galactus' and 'Godzilla'.  While I'm an American lawyer I wouldn't dare presume to give legal advice in this context.

That said, speaking as a fan, 'Galactor' would be fine.  Alternatively, you could just spell his 'real' name backwards, so you get 'Nalag of Aat' as opposed to 'Galan of Taa'.  

You could even preview him here!  

I 'quick statted' (didn't calculate feats or skills) one possible version of Thanos pursuant to v4 guidelines and came up w/about a 230 CR.  Aside from HD, the most significant CR factor was his ability to manipulate cosmic energy(as opposed to divine or deific) ability to the tune of something like 120 d6.

He would have easily slapped around most anything in the ELH.

I can't wait to see the 'official' version (sneak peek?  ).



> I dunno, I hadn't really thought about it increasing the costs.




I was speaking in terms of opportunity rather than book costs. 

I'm glad your focus is on marketing rather than operations/costs -- this is another reason why your work is more appealing than the rest of what's out there.


----------



## Upper_Krust

historian said:
			
		

> Hello Krust!




Hi historian mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Makes sense to me, although I will miss seeing the 'Akashic Memory'.




Well the Akashic Memory was never statted anyway.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Even if the metempiric 'abilities' don't make the cut, I encourage you to preserve them in draft form, in the event you decide to release them later as I would love to see them at some point.




Well I might be able to squeeze two or three into the Omnific Abilities.

A few others I was never really happy with from a mechanical perspective (they were more philosophical than mechanical). 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Any chance you can tell us anything about the other 7?




Well there was Alpha; Omega [Effect]; Metadimensional; Metamerism; Metastasis and a few others I wasn't really happy with like Metaphysical and Metaversal.

Some on that list may end up in the Omnific Abilities if they test out okay.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Also, if metempiric abilities are left out, will you have other ways to distinguish supernals from eternals?




To be honest I am debating whether or not Supernals (certainly plural) are necessary. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Ahura Mazda?  Angra Mainyu?




*NNNNHHH* Wrong answer. 

At best Overgods. Though I would be partial to making Ahriman/Angra Mainyu and Ormazd/Ahura Mazda 'merely' Greater Gods. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Cool, I'd love to see 'Galactus' and 'Godzilla'.  While I'm an American lawyer I wouldn't dare presume to give legal advice in this context.




Yes, I am curious if merely explaining who owns the copyright for such characters would be enough - its not like I am wanting to make money from the characters, I mean I could post the stats herein and no one would bat an eyelid.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> That said, speaking as a fan, 'Galactor' would be fine.  Alternatively, you could just spell his 'real' name backwards, so you get 'Nalag of Aat' as opposed to 'Galan of Taa'.
> 
> You could even preview him here!




Perhaps, I haven't done his stats yet, though I do have Godzilla practically finished.

...Its the 100 metre version of Godzilla by the way (rather than the 50 or 55 metre versions) with all the added extra powers he showed in the later movies. I think hes pretty tough, probably on a par with Odin - albeit in a more direct way obviously.  



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I 'quick statted' (didn't calculate feats or skills) one possible version of Thanos pursuant to v4 guidelines and came up w/about a 230 CR.  Aside from HD, the most significant CR factor was his ability to manipulate cosmic energy (as opposed to divine or deific) ability to the tune of something like 120 d6.
> 
> He would have easily slapped around most anything in the ELH.
> 
> I can't wait to see the 'official' version (sneak peek?  ).




Well it won't technically be Marvel Thanos, despite some similarities. But it would be easy to stat up Thanos using the IH. I make him Skyfather/Greater God level.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I was speaking in terms of opportunity rather than book costs.




I suppose. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I'm glad your focus is on marketing rather than operations/costs -- this is another reason why your work is more appealing than the rest of what's out there.




If I knew how to be able to sell the pdfs on my website then I would be able to circumnavigate the fees for places like rpgnow and lower the price of the pdfs.


----------



## historian

Howdy Krust!  



> Well the Akashic Memory was never statted anyway.




I suspect it'd be pretty hard to stat.




> Well I might be able to squeeze two or three into the Omnific Abilities.
> 
> A few others I was never really happy with from a mechanical perspective (they were more philosophical than mechanical).




Cool.



> Well there was Alpha; Omega [Effect]; Metadimensional; Metamerism; Metastasis and a few others I wasn't really happy with like Metaphysical and Metaversal.
> 
> Some on that list may end up in the Omnific Abilities if they test out okay.




These sound pretty cool, did you envision each having a different function (sounds like it)?



> To be honest I am debating whether or not Supernals (certainly plural) are necessary.




Interesting, would you stop the progression at Time Lord?  If supernals were omitted would you have any paramaters for a 'supreme being' type?



> *NNNNHHH* Wrong answer.
> 
> At best Overgods. Though I would be partial to making Ahriman/Angra Mainyu and Ormazd/Ahura Mazda 'merely' Greater Gods.




Drats, I guess I'm stumped on which 'real world' mythological figures would qualify as time lords.  

Care to give us a clue?   



> Perhaps, I haven't done his stats yet, though I do have Godzilla practically finished.
> 
> ...Its the 100 metre version of Godzilla by the way (rather than the 50 or 55 metre versions) with all the added extra powers he showed in the later movies. I think hes pretty tough, probably on a par with Odin - albeit in a more direct way obviously.




Bitchin' -- Godzilla sounds nasty.  Can't wait to see Galactus, I'm assuming he'll weigh in at about CR 500.



> Well it won't technically be Marvel Thanos, despite some similarities. But it would be easy to stat up Thanos using the IH. I make him Skyfather/Greater God level.




You had mentioned this before (Thanatos will likely be his handle?).  Skyfather is right on IMO(we have evidence that he is 'neck and neck' w/Odin).  I think my version had about 15-20 too many HD in all honesty. 

But w/Thanos (or his derivatives) I'd rather err on the high side -- underestimating him can be a disaster.  



> If I knew how to be able to sell the pdfs on my website then I would be able to circumnavigate the fees for places like rpgnow and lower the price of the pdfs.




My gut instinct tells me you could inboard this part of the operation _no problemo _ (though I'm not techy).  You might lose something in the way of product exposure though.

Take care dude.


----------



## Upper_Krust

historian said:
			
		

> Howdy Krust!




Hiya matey! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I suspect it'd be pretty hard to stat.




On the contrary its easy to stat, but the stats are just pointless.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Cool.
> 
> These sound pretty cool, did you envision each having a different function (sounds like it)?




Yeah I knew what they were doing, although the measure of any benefit was more guesswork than anything. But you would think I have a fairly good handle on these type of things by now. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Interesting, would you stop the progression at Time Lord?  If supernals were omitted would you have any paramaters for a 'supreme being' type?




Well Supernals pretty much are 'Supreme Beings', think along the lines of True Beyonders I suppose is the closest analogous characterization. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Drats, I guess I'm stumped on which 'real world' mythological figures would qualify as time lords.
> 
> Care to give us a clue?




Nope.  



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Bitchin' -- Godzilla sounds nasty.  Can't wait to see Galactus, I'm assuming he'll weigh in at about CR 500.




About 350-400.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> You had mentioned this before (Thanatos will likely be his handle?).




Yeah.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Skyfather is right on IMO (we have evidence that he is 'neck and neck' w/Odin).  I think my version had about 15-20 too many HD in all honesty.
> 
> But w/Thanos (or his derivatives) I'd rather err on the high side -- underestimating him can be a disaster.




He he! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> My gut instinct tells me you could inboard this part of the operation _no problemo _ (though I'm not techy).  You might lose something in the way of product exposure though.




Well I would have it on multiple websites, not just my own. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Take care dude.




I appreciate the support mate.


----------



## Cergorach

So, maybe i missed an anouncement in this thread (hardly suprising as this thing is bloody long), but from what i gather Mongoose is releasing:


> The Book of Immortals Hardcover - $34.95
> Focusing on epic play from 20th level onwards, The Book of Immortals introduces a wealth of new d20 material for one of the most neglected, yet central themes of fantasy campaigns - the quest for ultimate power!



Is this 'your' BoI? Or something new?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Cergorach mate! 



			
				Cergorach said:
			
		

> So, maybe i missed an anouncement in this thread (hardly suprising as this thing is bloody long), but from what i gather Mongoose is releasing:
> 
> Is this 'your' BoI? Or something new?




No this isn't my book, but something different. 

I am really looking forward to Mongoose take on all things immortal as well as Sword & Sorcery Studios book on Greek Gods (out in September I believe).

So thats two for me to look out for over the coming months and three for the rest of you.


----------



## historian

Howdy Krust!




> On the contrary its easy to stat, but the stats are just pointless.




I know what you mean.




> I wonder can anyone guess the names of possible Time Lords from world mythology?





Back for a second bite at the apple.  I guess I'm struggling a bit with the how "world mythology" is defined.  

I would suspect that Death, Fate, Time, etc. would all qualify as Time Lords, but I'm not sure that they're subsumed within the "world mythology" category.




> Well Supernals pretty much are 'Supreme Beings', think along the lines of True Beyonders I suppose is the closest analogous characterization.





Would we lump in HOU Thanos as a 'Supernal' as well?  Is there a point (in CR terms) that you view as a 'practical' maximum (80 quindecillion/8^24)?  




> About 350-400.





That sounds about right on for Galactus when I think about it critically.  At CR 400, he is roughly 4-5 times as strong as a Skyfather (assuming a mean CR of about 200 for Skyfathers), but not wholly out of their league.

A Skyfather on his home turf should be strong enough to deter Galactus from eating their favored homeworlds.

Although Galactus is an interesting case, at full consumption I could see 'him' at something higher than CR 400.




> Well I would have it on multiple websites, not just my own.






Good deal -- this thread gets a lot of views (and I suspect it's not just from people who post) and you're well known and connected, so any concerns about product exposure are probably misplaced.


----------



## Impeesa

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> No this isn't my book, but something different.
> 
> I am really looking forward to Mongoose take on all things immortal as well as Sword & Sorcery Studios book on Greek Gods (out in September I believe).




Took long enough for someone else to pick up on it. Careful or you'll be scooped. 

*cough* tortoise, hare, etc. 

--Impeesa--


----------



## Upper_Krust

historian said:
			
		

> Howdy Krust!




Hi historian matey! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Back for a second bite at the apple.  I guess I'm struggling a bit with the how "world mythology" is defined.




There are characters from Earths mythology that are Time Lords.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I would suspect that Death, Fate, Time, etc. would all qualify as Time Lords,




Nope, they would be First Ones.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> but I'm not sure that they're subsumed within the "world mythology" category.




Yes. Time is Zurvan Akarana (or Janus), Death, Fate and the others also have actual names, but I'll save them for the book.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Would we lump in HOU Thanos as a 'Supernal' as well?




Yes.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Is there a point (in CR terms) that you view as a 'practical' maximum (80 quindecillion/8^24)?




It gets really complicated dealing with CRs for Time Lords and above (when you see the Omnific and (if I keep them) Metempiric powers you'll understand better.

I mean if I said the Supreme Being only had about 25 million hit points you might laugh at me, but when you add some of the powers that may as well be 25 googleplex...You'll see. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> That sounds about right on for Galactus when I think about it critically.




He converts to about CR 357...if you want a bit more precision.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> At CR 400, he is roughly 4-5 times as strong as a Skyfather (assuming a mean CR of about 200 for Skyfathers), but not wholly out of their league.
> 
> A Skyfather on his home turf should be strong enough to deter Galactus from eating their favored homeworlds.




Odin should give him a good run.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Although Galactus is an interesting case, at full consumption I could see 'him' at something higher than CR 400.




I dunno, I see him losing a HD/Level per day when he does not eat a planet. Some of his powers also accelerate his hunger in this way.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Good deal -- this thread gets a lot of views (and I suspect it's not just from people who post) and you're well known and connected, so any concerns about product exposure are probably misplaced.




Well I wouldn't necessarily say well known or connected, but I appreciate the love dude!


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Impeesa mate! 



			
				Impeesa said:
			
		

> Took long enough for someone else to pick up on it. Careful or you'll be scooped.
> 
> *cough* tortoise, hare, etc.




I'd like to think more like a vorpal bunny than a hare.


----------



## Knight Otu

Hiya, UK!

 What formula were you using to determine the level of epic spells again? I think it was (Spellcraft DC)/10 + 7, right? I'm thinking about using it for my Revised Planar Ruler template.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Knight Otu said:
			
		

> Hiya, UK!




Hey Knight Otu mate!  



			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> What formula were you using to determine the level of epic spells again? I think it was (Spellcraft DC)/10 + 7, right?




Yes thats right.



			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> I'm thinking about using it for my Revised Planar Ruler template.




Sweet! 

It is a bit unwieldy though. As you yourself note, its possibly the largest template in the world.

Some of those Planar Abilities seem a touch powerful (given that they are effectively representing feats). Improved Natural Armour for instance.


----------



## Revenge of the Bjorn

My entry in the "guess a time lord contest" is Kali as splained by someone or other here 

Actually I saw another page way back that had the same information but with pictures and a flashier layout and whatnot, but I couldn't find it again.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Bjorn mate! 



			
				Revenge of the Bjorn said:
			
		

> My entry in the "guess a time lord contest" is Kali as splained by someone or other here




Very interesting, thanks for the link...although Kali is an aspect of Aditi, she herself would not be a First One...let alone a Time Lord.

Though Kali in 'Durga mode' might well be an Elder Goddess or at least the equivalent of one (in terms of CR).



			
				Revenge of the Bjorn said:
			
		

> Actually I saw another page way back that had the same information but with pictures and a flashier layout and whatnot, but I couldn't find it again.




Let me know if you find it again.


----------



## Knight Otu

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Yes thats right.





			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> It is a bit unwieldy though. As you yourself note, its possibly the largest template in the world.



 The scary thing is... there's always room for growth! 



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Some of those Planar Abilities seem a touch powerful (given that they are effectively representing feats). Improved Natural Armour for instance.



 Actually, my idea was to make them somewhat more powerful than feats. For example, the Improved Saves ability is more or less the old version of Hero's Luck, with the addition that it can be taken multiple times. That said, Improved Natural Armor is likely too powerful.


----------



## historian

Howdy Krust!  



> There are characters from Earths mythology that are Time Lords.




I'm afraid I'm all out of ideas.  



> Yes. Time is Zurvan Akarana (or Janus), Death, Fate and the others also have actual names, but I'll save them for the book.




I surfed back a couple of pages in thread and noticed that you had these guys as varying ranks of sidereals.  

I'm struggling to come up w/something that would 'lord' over these guys, unless it is a creator type being in a monotheistic religion -- but I think such a being would be a supernal.




> It gets really complicated dealing with CRs for Time Lords and above (when you see the Omnific and (if I keep them) Metempiric powers you'll understand better.




I think I understand.  There will be a base template that adds something like a fixed CR but there are at least two variables - First, the level or HP deviation between 'immortals' broadens as they increase in rank (i.e. the difference in character levels between first ones is on average greater than the difference between intermediate deities) and, second, as powers become greater, their effect on overall CR is greater (even if not proportionately) than lower ranked powers (i.e. the CR ranges for the omnific gifts covers a much broader spectrum than those of the divine gifts).



> I mean if I said the Supreme Being only had about 25 million hit points you might laugh at me




It's hard to laugh at something that could kick your a** across the multiverse.  




> but when you add some of the powers that may as well be 25 googleplex...You'll see.




That's an awful lot of hit points man.  

But I think I 'get the drift' so to speak?




> He converts to about CR 357...if you want a bit more precision.




I love precision (sounds like you've got him statted out in front of you).  

I'm guessing he'll push 10,000 hit points?




> I dunno, I see him losing a HD/Level per day when he does not eat a planet. Some of his powers also accelerate his hunger in this way.





Cool, so CR 357 represents a 'practical maximum' as opposed to just an average (this seems in line with his portrayals over the last 15 years where he has really shown some vulnerability).


----------



## Valnauron Isthiliel

Hello again, I've been lurking here for a while (I asked a few questions awhile back (like around page 6 or something...?). The timelord question has me intrigued...  
Would Shiva or Vishnu be "timelords"? Bramha would probably fit as a "supernal"...
Would Cronos, from whose name we derive words like _chronological_, really "only" (not that it still isn't really powerful  ) be a "sidereal", as you have said before? Very interesting...
Man, Ive got to get this book!


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Knight Otu mate! 



			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> The scary thing is... there's always room for growth!




Unfortunately, thats the mantra I seem to have adopted over the past year (or so) with the IH. 



			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> Actually, my idea was to make them somewhat more powerful than feats. For example, the Improved Saves ability is more or less the old version of Hero's Luck, with the addition that it can be taken multiple times. That said, Improved Natural Armor is likely too powerful.




You have five equal to a Divine Salient Ability (as would I on average), so I can see how you arrived at some of the figures (by reverse engineering SDAs rather that taking feats/epic feats).


----------



## Upper_Krust

historian said:
			
		

> Howdy Krust!




Hiya mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I'm afraid I'm all out of ideas.




Thats okay, its a tough question.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I surfed back a couple of pages in thread and noticed that you had these guys as varying ranks of sidereals.




Yep. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I'm struggling to come up w/something that would 'lord' over these guys,




Well you could arguably have the Lords of Necessity from Fritz Liebers Lankhmar setting...though they were not the ones from Earths myth I was refering to. I wonder could I mention them in the IH (?) the same way the ELH mentions, Elric, Conan and Gandalf?



			
				historian said:
			
		

> unless it is a creator type being in a monotheistic religion -- but I think such a being would be a supernal.




Ultimately, though I would have the Canaanite god El as a 'mere' Greater God.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I think I understand.  There will be a base template that adds something like a fixed CR but there are at least two variables - First, the level or HP deviation between 'immortals' broadens as they increase in rank (i.e. the difference in character levels between first ones is on average greater than the difference between intermediate deities) and, second, as powers become greater, their effect on overall CR is greater (even if not proportionately) than lower ranked powers (i.e. the CR ranges for the omnific gifts covers a much broader spectrum than those of the divine gifts).




To an extent yes, but it closely surrounds some of the most powerful abilities (much of which I don't want to give away, though...imagine you had 25 million hit points and infinite fast healing for instance...meaning that someone would need to deal 25 million damage in one round to defeat you.)

Of course thats just the tip of the iceberg, but combining some of the upper tier powers gets ridiculous.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> It's hard to laugh at something that could kick your a** across the multiverse.




It wouldn't even need to, it could just fold your multiverse and put it in its pocket and use it later to blow its nose with.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> That's an awful lot of hit points man.
> 
> But I think I 'get the drift' so to speak?




Thats before it takes the Infinite Constitution Omnific Ability of course. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I love precision (sounds like you've got him statted out in front of you).




Only vaguely. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I'm guessing he'll push 10,000 hit points?




Godzilla has exactly 10,000 hp.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Cool, so CR 357 represents a 'practical maximum' as opposed to just an average (this seems in line with his portrayals over the last 15 years where he has really shown some vulnerability).




Yes, at least thats how I see it.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Valnauron Isthiliel said:
			
		

> Hello again,




Hey welcome back! 



			
				Valnauron Isthiliel said:
			
		

> I've been lurking here for a while (I asked a few questions awhile back (like around page 6 or something...?).




Time just seems to fly by me. 



			
				Valnauron Isthiliel said:
			
		

> The timelord question has me intrigued...




Heh heh! 



			
				Valnauron Isthiliel said:
			
		

> Would Shiva or Vishnu be "timelords"? Bramha would probably fit as a "supernal"...




Only in a closed cosmology revolving wholly around the Hindu Pantheon would such beings even approach any such lofty heights and it would probably be pointless even making them such at any time.

In a completely open cosmology, Brahma (and Shiva and Vishnu) are 'mere' Greater Gods. 

Brahma is one of the top 3 (Earth) Skyfather Greater Powers though...I always loved his portrayal in Pantheon of the Megaverse - brilliant book by the way, I recommend it to everyone.



			
				Valnauron Isthiliel said:
			
		

> Would Cronos, from whose name we derive words like _chronological_, really "only" (not that it still isn't really powerful  ) be a "sidereal", as you have said before? Very interesting...




Cronos would be an Elder God (as would the primary titans). Once I explain what Elder Gods really are you guys will all love how I have handled them, it works especially well with the Titans and how they are imprisoned. I really want to tell you, but I'll just keep that a secret for now. 



			
				Valnauron Isthiliel said:
			
		

> Man, Ive got to get this book!




I appreciate the support mate.


----------



## Valnauron Isthiliel

Hey


			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Time just seems to fly by me.



Perhaps the "time lords" are doing this to prevent you from revealing all of their secrets  



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Only in a closed cosmology revolving wholly around the Hindu Pantheon would such beings even approach any such lofty heights and it would probably be pointless even making them such at any time.



I dunno if it would be pointless, I could imagine a campaign based around characters that are reincarnated into higher and higher forms until they are "enlightened" enough to percieve the true nature of these beings, or something like that :goes off to design this campaign:  



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> In a completely open cosmology, Brahma (and Shiva and Vishnu) are 'mere' Greater Gods.
> 
> Brahma is one of the top 3 (Earth) Skyfather Greater Powers though...I always loved his portrayal in Pantheon of the Megaverse - brilliant book by the way, I recommend it to everyone.



I like this idea too! A campaign (sort of like planescape...) in which there exist multiple mythologies alongside each other.  I have always thought of Brahma as being sort of like _The Force_ from _Star Wars_, encompassing all things at once as the fabric of creation itself, but if multiple cosmologies exist alongside one another I can totally see it this way too, since that statement can usually describe the "top man" of any mythos. I'll go see if I can find that book at my local library, it sounds very interesting.



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Cronos would be an Elder God (as would the primary titans). Once I explain what Elder Gods really are you guys will all love how I have handled them, it works especially well with the Titans and how they are imprisoned. I really want to tell you, but I'll just keep that a secret for now.



That does sound fascinating! I've always been interested in "Elder God" type beings, probably because there only seems to ever be enough information about them to whet my appetite even more.



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I appreciate the support mate.



And I appreciate all of the great ideas you come up with, and how you always respond to everyone's questions with so much thought.


----------



## Fieari

Argh!  Everything you're saying just makes me want it more and more and I can't have it until you're finished!  Argh!  Argh!  Argh!  My money is BURNING to get into your pocket man!

It seems I may have to readjust my thoughts on relative power levels if you're saying that the incarnation of Time is a mere (heh, mere) Elder God.  A Time Lord has to be something more fundamental than that, and yet not as powerful as a Supreme Being.  That's quite a tricky balance!

Would an incarnation of Wisdom fall under the "Time Lord" category?  I don't know of any in Earth Mythology, but what I mean is the embodiment of the ability to have knowledge.  The fundamental difference between that which can be known (ie, everything) and that which can't be known (ie, nothing we can begin to imagine, by definition).  It seems to me that without such a thing, you can't conceive of anything else.  That the concept of a concept can't exist without it.  That a Supreme Being would have to first create Wisdom before anything else... see Law of Self Contradiction

Am I thinking in the right direction, at the very least?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Valnauron Isthiliel said:
			
		

> Hey




Hello again mate! 



			
				Valnauron Isthiliel said:
			
		

> Perhaps the "time lords" are doing this to prevent you from revealing all of their secrets




I thought I outranked them, they must be ganging up on me. 



			
				Valnauron Isthiliel said:
			
		

> I dunno if it would be pointless, I could imagine a campaign based around characters that are reincarnated into higher and higher forms until they are "enlightened" enough to percieve the true nature of these beings, or something like that :goes off to design this campaign:




Its easy to assign limits to divinity once you know what deities can create.



			
				Valnauron Isthiliel said:
			
		

> I like this idea too! A campaign (sort of like planescape...) in which there exist multiple mythologies alongside each other.




Indeed, our campaign has always been like this. Though I can see why people would sometimes want a closed cosmology with a single pantheon.



			
				Valnauron Isthiliel said:
			
		

> I have always thought of Brahma as being sort of like _The Force_ from _Star Wars_, encompassing all things at once as the fabric of creation itself, but if multiple cosmologies exist alongside one another I can totally see it this way too, since that statement can usually describe the "top man" of any mythos. I'll go see if I can find that book at my local library, it sounds very interesting.




I don't think you will find it at the library, its a RIFTS sourcebook, its a fantastic book, but don't take my word for it:

http://www.hillcity-comics.com/role_play/pal/pal811.htm

http://www.epinions.com/content_28001144452

http://www.top-book-reviews.com/reviews/0916211681

http://dungeons-and-dragons.us/0916211681.html

I would probably say, with the exception of the 1st Edition Deities & Demigods/Legends & Lore by TSR, that Pantheons of the Megaverse is my favourite RPG book, and the amazing thing is I don't even have the RIFTS RPG, nor do I know the rules.



			
				Valnauron Isthiliel said:
			
		

> That does sound fascinating! I've always been interested in "Elder God" type beings, probably because there only seems to ever be enough information about them to whet my appetite even more.




Yes, most books have a habit of avoiding the issue...of course I avoid no issues. 



			
				Valnauron Isthiliel said:
			
		

> And I appreciate all of the great ideas you come up with, and how you always respond to everyone's questions with so much thought.




Well, thank you so much for the kind words.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Fieari mate! 



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> Argh!  Everything you're saying just makes me want it more and more and I can't have it until you're finished!  Argh!  Argh!  Argh!  My money is BURNING to get into your pocket man!




Sorry mate, I'm hurrying, I'm hurrying.   



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> It seems I may have to readjust my thoughts on relative power levels if you're saying that the incarnation of Time is a mere (heh, mere) Elder God.




Cronos, of Greek mythology was not the incarnation of time.



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> A Time Lord has to be something more fundamental than that, and yet not as powerful as a Supreme Being.  That's quite a tricky balance!




Tell me about it. 



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> Would an incarnation of Wisdom fall under the "Time Lord" category?  I don't know of any in Earth Mythology, but what I mean is the embodiment of the ability to have knowledge.  The fundamental difference between that which can be known (ie, everything) and that which can't be known (ie, nothing we can begin to imagine, by definition).  It seems to me that without such a thing, you can't conceive of anything else.  That the concept of a concept can't exist without it.  That a Supreme Being would have to first create Wisdom before anything else... see Law of Self Contradiction
> 
> Am I thinking in the right direction, at the very least?




Thanks for the link. Some interesting postulation, though I always try to explain things physically as well as metaphysically. So even if you were right, you would only be part right.


----------



## Cheiromancer

Upper Krust,

Have you ever given thought to someone dropping a nuke on an immortal?  Godzilla, say, or something more powerful.  I'm thinking that a nuke would do very high damage of various types- fire, sonic, force and impact damage, and probably ability damage too (though poison immune creatures might be immune to radiation poisoning).  

I'm just curious if you've statted up nuclear weapons.


----------



## Upper_Krust

*Nuke the site from orbit...its the only way to be sure.*



			
				Cheiromancer said:
			
		

> Upper Krust,




Hi Chieromancer mate! 



			
				Cheiromancer said:
			
		

> Have you ever given thought to someone dropping a nuke on an immortal? Godzilla, say, or something more powerful.




Yes, not just nukes but also contemporary and futuristic weaponry. 

The trick is first to determine whether you are running a real-physics setting or a comic book physics setting (like d20 Modern).

In a realistic physics setting a 10 ton bomb is going to kill the typical Demigod, whereas in a comic book physics setting a Demigod might survive a 1 Megaton Blast.

This also gives us the hit points of planetary bodies. Earth for instance has slightly less than 1 billion hit points (real physics), and less than 100,000 hp (comic book physics). 

Godzilla could just about take a very low yield nuke (real physics), or virtually survive the explosion which wiped out the dinosaurs (comic book physics).



			
				Cheiromancer said:
			
		

> I'm thinking that a nuke would do very high damage of various types- fire, sonic, force and impact damage, and probably ability damage too (though poison immune creatures might be immune to radiation poisoning).




It does force (shockwave), heat (fireball) and poison (radiation) damage.  



			
				Cheiromancer said:
			
		

> I'm just curious if you've statted up nuclear weapons.


----------



## Fieari

That's assuming your Demigod there gets HIT by the nuke.  I'm sure a demigod has a few tricks he could pull out to avoid having the thing actually blow up on him, yes?


----------



## S'mon

Re nuke damage - the direct radiation damage would be fire/heat damage, so ER (Fire) would count vs this.  In D&D "Force" is magical force effects like magic missile & wall of force, so not relevant.  "Sonic" isn't properly defined in D&D but appears to be the damaging vibratory effects of a sound wave, whereas a nuke's blast damage is _wind_ damage, a mass of air clobbering you all at once, ie it's simple _physical_ damage like you get from falling off a cliff or being hit by a steel longsword, so regular DR would count vs this (or vs the much smaller blast effects of hand grenades, dynamite, HE tank & howitzer shells, etc). 

BTW as well as physical (blast) and fire (heat) damage, a high yield nuke in atmosphere will suck all the oxygen out of the area, which may cause asphyxiation effects, but godlike beings can probably survive this I'd guess.  Note that creatures near ground zero will take damage both from the initial 'outward' blast wave _and_ from a secondary inward blast-wave as air rushes back into the near-vacuum created by the explosion.  These effects could be several rounds apart for a megaton nuke, I believe.


----------



## S'mon

Radiation damage - I'm not sure if the direct effects of the Gamma radiation should be treated as anything other than heat (energy) damage, but I suppose there's a case for a save vs poison to avoid being 'sterilised' by the gamma rays.    I would tend to assume immortals' bodies regenerate over time so they'd be immune to long-term radiation poisoning effects.


----------



## Knight Otu

There is a nuclear toxyderm (basically pollution elementals) in the Urban Arcana book for d20 Modern. It is also in the SRD. I've attached the relevant portions from the SRD file.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Fieari mate! 



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> That's assuming your Demigod there gets HIT by the nuke.




You know of course that some beings (like Godzilla) can duplicate atomic effects with various attacks. 

In fact Atomic [Effect] is one of the powers in the book.



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> I'm sure a demigod has a few tricks he could pull out to avoid having the thing actually blow up on him, yes?




Well if the demigod knew the nuke was about to explode they could always disintigrate it (or similar). But that assumes they know its coming and have both the time and means to deal with it.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey S'mon!  

Thanks for stopping by.



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> Re nuke damage - the direct radiation damage would be fire/heat damage, so ER (Fire) would count vs this.




Agreed.



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> In D&D "Force" is magical force effects like magic missile & wall of force, so not relevant.




I meant force in the traditional sense. 



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> "Sonic" isn't properly defined in D&D but appears to be the damaging vibratory effects of a sound wave, whereas a nuke's blast damage is _wind_ damage, a mass of air clobbering you all at once, ie it's simple _physical_ damage like you get from falling off a cliff or being hit by a steel longsword, so regular DR would count vs this (or vs the much smaller blast effects of hand grenades, dynamite, HE tank & howitzer shells, etc).




Presumably Simon, any nukes you use in your campaign will be of the realistic physics damage potential rather than the comic book damage potential? 



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> BTW as well as physical (blast) and fire (heat) damage, a high yield nuke in atmosphere will suck all the oxygen out of the area, which may cause asphyxiation effects, but godlike beings can probably survive this I'd guess.




This would have no effect upon deities, but I should add it to accomodate uppity epic characters who think they can 'take' nukes. 



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> Note that creatures near ground zero will take damage both from the initial 'outward' blast wave _and_ from a secondary inward blast-wave as air rushes back into the near-vacuum created by the explosion.  These effects could be several rounds apart for a megaton nuke, I believe.




Again relevant here (though rarely elsewhere) since beings will have a chance of surviving the initial blast.

Theres also the chance of kinetic impact damage from the missile itself, although targeting is likely to prove tricky unless the target is rather big. I wonder what the homing ability of a photon torpedo is, for those Cthulhu vs. the USS Enterprise moments.

Did Picard ever get killed off in that adventure you ran including him?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hello again! 



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> Radiation damage - I'm not sure if the direct effects of the Gamma radiation should be treated as anything other than heat (energy) damage, but I suppose there's a case for a save vs poison to avoid being 'sterilised' by the gamma rays.




I think we have to have some sort of radiation poisoning mechanic, likely affecting constitution (as in Knight Otu's link).



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> I would tend to assume immortals' bodies regenerate over time so they'd be immune to long-term radiation poisoning effects.




Immortals are immune to all natural poisons (including radiation poisoning). 

However, deities of superior status manifesting atomic/radiation abilities would still be able to affect them.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Knight Otu mate! 



			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> There is a nuclear toxyderm (basically pollution elementals) in the Urban Arcana book for d20 Modern. It is also in the SRD. I've attached the relevant portions from the SRD file.




Thanks for the link.

I wonder does Urban Arcana have rules for nukes themselves?

By the way everyone here is a link to a fantastic Kaiju site where you can learn all about the likes of Godzilla, King Ghidrah, Mothra, Rodan & co.

http://www.kaijuphile.com/rodansroost/

This section is particularly good.

http://www.kaijuphile.com/rodansroost/kaijustats/kaijustats.shtml


----------



## Knight Otu

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I wonder does Urban Arcana have rules for nukes themselves?



 Nope, just radiation exposure, from the toxyderm's breath weapon and explosion. I think there's a chance for such rules to be in d20 Future, though.


----------



## S'mon

>>Presumably Simon, any nukes you use in your campaign will be of the realistic physics damage potential rather than the comic book damage potential? <<

Of course


----------



## Alzrius

Knight Otu said:
			
		

> Nope, just radiation exposure, from the toxyderm's breath weapon and explosion. I think there's a chance for such rules to be in d20 Future, though.




The _D20 Modern_ web enhancement has rules for radiation exposure and damage. No rules for nukes though (heck, I'd be happy just to find rules for rocket launchers).


----------



## Knight Otu

Alzrius said:
			
		

> The _D20 Modern_ web enhancement has rules for radiation exposure and damage.



 *Checks*
 They're the same rules as in the Urban Arcana SRD.


----------



## S'mon

OT: I don't recall too well what scenario with Captain Picard you mean, U_K, though I think I once gave Fergus a chance to kill Wesley Crusher...


----------



## CRGreathouse

I have a quick question: what kind of ability is Metamerism you mentioned earlier (divide whenever you'd otherwise die)?  Cosmic?

Oh, and any recent estimates for the book or website?


----------



## Cheiromancer

Time to bring out a dead horse for another beating...

I want to bring up the xp system again.  I think that a good rule for assigning xp is to assign each challenge a raw xp value equal to (CR^2)*300.  Then, when the challenge is overcome by a party, divide the raw xp by the total party CR, and award that amount to each character.

It really is a lot more straightforward than a lot of table look-ups, and gives appropriate values.

For more discussion, look here.

For example, suppose you have a party whose total ECL is 77.  (A 20th level Rogue, 20th level wizard, 15th level Monk half-dragon, and an 18th level cleric)  Versus a CR 15 Vrock.  That's a raw value of 67500, or 876 xp per person.  You give 37.5 xp per person, or between 675 xp and 750 xp.  If you like, you can assign each party member a +1 CR for being created with the Standard Point Buy, and then each will get 833 xp.

Or suppose they are facing a CR 33 balor.  That has a raw xp of 326700, or 4243 xp per person (or 4033 if you treat the group as having a total CR of 81 instead of 77).  You give between 3800 and 4000 xp.  

This method is really quite similar to yours, but far easier to implement (imho).  You do have to use a calculator to compute squares and do the long division, but folks would probably use one anyone to calculate stuff like what 18.75 xp/level worked out to for their 17th level character.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi CRGreathouse! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I have a quick question: what kind of ability is Metamerism you mentioned earlier (divide whenever you'd otherwise die)?  Cosmic?




I was toying with the idea that it would be Metempiric, though I think that might have been more because of how it juxtaposed with other abilities. It should really be a Transcendental Ability on its own merits.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Oh, and any recent estimates for the book or website?




Yes, but all of them bad.

I can't get the website sorted until I can get some kind of credit card and I can't get that until I sell the first pdf. I have the website finished, albeit with only a dozen or so articles at this point.

So at this juncture it looks like I may not have the website up prior to the release of the first pdf. 

Obviously thats not an ideal situation, but since when has anything surrounding the development period of this book been ideal.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Cheiromancer mate! 



			
				Cheiromancer said:
			
		

> Time to bring out a dead horse for another beating...
> 
> I want to bring up the xp system again.  I think that a good rule for assigning xp is to assign each challenge a raw xp value equal to (CR^2)*300.  Then, when the challenge is overcome by a party, divide the raw xp by the total party CR, and award that amount to each character.
> 
> It really is a lot more straightforward than a lot of table look-ups, and gives appropriate values.
> 
> For more discussion, look here.
> 
> For example, suppose you have a party whose total ECL is 77.  (A 20th level Rogue, 20th level wizard, 15th level Monk half-dragon, and an 18th level cleric)  Versus a CR 15 Vrock.  That's a raw value of 67500, or 876 xp per person.  You give 37.5 xp per person, or between 675 xp and 750 xp.  If you like, you can assign each party member a +1 CR for being created with the Standard Point Buy, and then each will get 833 xp.
> 
> Or suppose they are facing a CR 33 balor.  That has a raw xp of 326700, or 4243 xp per person (or 4033 if you treat the group as having a total CR of 81 instead of 77).  You give between 3800 and 4000 xp.
> 
> This method is really quite similar to yours, but far easier to implement (imho).  You do have to use a calculator to compute squares and do the long division, but folks would probably use one anyone to calculate stuff like what 18.75 xp/level worked out to for their 17th level character.




Is there any great benefit though?

By the way who here has bought Bad Axe Games "Grim Tales"? Chapters 13 and 14 are essentially an abbreviated form (18 1/2 pages, and slightly larger text) of the IH appendices.


----------



## Cheiromancer

I have Grim Tales.  It's a very nice book- not least because it contains (most of) the IH appendices.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I can't get the website sorted until I can get some kind of credit card and I can't get that until I sell the first pdf. I have the website finished, albeit with only a dozen or so articles at this point.
> 
> So at this juncture it looks like I may not have the website up prior to the release of the first pdf.
> 
> Obviously thats not an ideal situation, but since when has anything surrounding the development period of this book been ideal.




Well at least now you can focus full-force on finishing the books.  Frankly the situation with the website has never ceased to surprise me -- I'm sure there are several people who'd be willing to set up the website for you (that is, pay the startup costs with their cc) with the understanding that you'd send them the PDFs (when they're done) in exchange, or a similar arrangement.  It's not really a big deal, though.

How much typing is left on Apotheosis?  Is the writing finished?  How much typing remains on the other books?


----------



## S'mon

U_K, you could always put a website up on eg geocities - www.geocities.com - or is it a case of "if it can't be perfect it's not worth doing"?  
Geocities provides 15 MB of space and the file upload is pretty easy, as is the online editing (esp if you know basic HTML).  I've used it for many years and had no big problems.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi CR mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Well at least now you can focus full-force on finishing the books.




If real life wasn't a distract-o-matic at the moment I would agree with you.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Frankly the situation with the website has never ceased to surprise me -




That makes two of us.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> - I'm sure there are several people who'd be willing to set up the website for you (that is, pay the startup costs with their cc) with the understanding that you'd send them the PDFs (when they're done) in exchange, or a similar arrangement.  It's not really a big deal, though.




I sort of didn't want to do that, but it looks like that might be the only option to get it up before the first pdf release.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> How much typing is left on Apotheosis?




About 20 pages, although the gaps are not coterminious, which slightly complicates things.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Is the writing finished?




Writing is about 90% done, I usually write up a working draft and then tighten it up when I am typing.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> How much typing remains on the other books?




Lots, but the content of the other books really is much quicker to write up. For example I could probably finish off the bestiary within ten (working) days.

Its the more technical nature of the portfolios, powers and so forth that is grinding me down. Although the main problem at the moment is real world interference. I think I have managed about 16 hours work in the past week because of impossible to avoid circumstances, and of course an hour here and an hour there is never as fruitful as seven or eight hour stints.

Hopefully I won't be as busy over the next week or so and I can get this bugger wrapped up.


----------



## Upper_Krust

S'mon said:
			
		

> U_K,




Hey S'mon! 



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> you could always put a website up on eg geocities - www.geocities.com - or is it a case of "if it can't be perfect it's not worth doing"?




I have the website done (albeit with spartan content for the moment because obviously I have other things to do), I have free webspace (thanks to sonofapreacherman) for the first month - once I start up. So its not the website or the webspace issue.

I don't have a credit card which would allow me to register the domain name (and of late most of my friends seem to be temporarily maxing theirs out). 

Similarly without the credit card I can't get the message boards sorted although obviously thats a secondary issue at this juncture.



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> Geocities provides 15 MB of space and the file upload is pretty easy, as is the online editing (esp if you know basic HTML).  I've used it for many years and had no big problems.




Like I said I have the website done. I have free webspace. All I need is someone to register the domain name for my IP address and I can have the website up in a day or so.


----------



## Paragon

whats the cost on registering the domain name there Krust?


----------



## Fieari

http://www.active-domain.com/ offers $10 per year for domain registering...


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Paragon and Fieari! 



			
				Paragon said:
			
		

> whats the cost on registering the domain name there Krust?




The cost is incidental (even for me), its the inability to pay it thats causing the problems.



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> http://www.active-domain.com/ offers $10 per year for domain registering...




Wow thats very cheap! Only $9.95 for the .com


----------



## historian

Howdy Krust!  



> I don't have a credit card which would allow me to register the domain name (and of late most of my friends seem to be temporarily maxing theirs out).
> 
> Similarly without the credit card I can't get the message boards sorted although obviously thats a secondary issue at this juncture.
> 
> The cost is incidental (even for me), its the inability to pay it thats causing the problems.




This is a real bummer.  I'm wondering whether it would be possible to take up small donations and open a checking account with a debit card service that you could use as a credit card.

I hate to see something like this constituting a 'barrier' (not merely for selfish reasons).  

I'd be happy to brainstorm with you over e-mail.

And I plan to be following up w/more IH substantive questions.


----------



## Droid101

Honestly; I haven't posted here in more than 18 months... and you're STILL talking about this damn handbook you've been compiling.  Jebus.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Droid101 said:
			
		

> Honestly; I haven't posted here in more than 18 months... and you're STILL talking about this damn handbook you've been compiling.  Jebus.




Heck, considering its size 18 months isn't that long.

Of course, U_K's been at it longer than that -- but with real life rearing its ugly head, the SRD issues, and the revision it's taken longer than we'd otherwise expect.

It's good that the book will be the best it can be -- although even the best of us grow impatient at times.  (I'm not in that group.  I'm always impatient.)


----------



## Upper_Krust

historian said:
			
		

> Howdy Krust!




Hiya mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> This is a real bummer.  I'm wondering whether it would be possible to take up small donations and open a checking account with a debit card service that you could use as a credit card.




That seems a bit too fussy for what should really be quick and painless.

I think a better idea is just for me to wait until one of my friends is able to do it, who knows I may even get it sorted this weekend? *fingers crossed*



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I hate to see something like this constituting a 'barrier' (not merely for selfish reasons).




Its just one of those real life circumstances that just keep slapping me in the face, but I'll get there in the end.  



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I'd be happy to brainstorm with you over e-mail.




Well hey, thanks so much mate. I really appreciate the thought but I think I'd like to get this sorted by someone whom I can directly pay rather than be beholden to anyone.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> And I plan to be following up w/more IH substantive questions.




I am always happy to answer any questions, substantive or otherwise.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi there Droid101! 



			
				Droid101 said:
			
		

> Honestly; I haven't posted here in more than 18 months... and you're STILL talking about this damn handbook you've been compiling.  Jebus.




Well, you know I feel really guilty about that, I honestly do. There are obstacles that just keep getting in the way that are simply out of my control and theres nothing else I can do about it. But even so I know in my heart I should have finished it six (or more) months ago and I have spent many sleepless nights pondering how the hell I ever allowed things to get to this stage.

The only comfort I can offer at this stage is that the book about to be released is better and more extensive than the book had it surfaced six or twelve months ago.

Other than that all I can do is apologise for my continued procrastination.


----------



## Cheiromancer

Upper Krust said:
			
		

> I think a better idea is just for me to wait until one of my friends is able to do it, who knows I may even get it sorted this weekend? *fingers crossed*




I'm pretty sure that if you asked for volunteers, any number of folks on the message boards would offer to buy it for you.  It doesn't have to be someone in Ireland or something, does it?

If they take VISA, I'll do it for you.  E-mail is jimstenberg at hotmail dot com.  Just direct me to an on-line form and tell me the specifics of what I have to fill in.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey CR mate! 

Thanks for sticking up for me.   



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Heck, considering its size 18 months isn't that long.




Technically 22 months would be the industry standard for something this size, although other companies have the luxury to be able to 'divvy' that time up between multiple workers.  :\ 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Of course, U_K's been at it longer than that -- but with real life rearing its ugly head, the SRD issues, and the revision it's taken longer than we'd otherwise expect.
> 
> It's good that the book will be the best it can be -- although even the best of us grow impatient at times.  (I'm not in that group.  I'm always impatient.)




You know about 3 1/2 years ago I actually posted (what was then) the worship points system on these boards. It was about 2-3 pages worth of material.

I then had an idea about making it about 6-8 pages and fleshing it out with some new rules. Then that became about 12-16 pages and I started getting the idea for a larger more substantial framework. At the moment things are looking likely to hit close to 400 pages. So the scope of the work has seemingly doubled every 6 months.

So it hasn't really been a case of having a set framework at any stage (until recently) - obviously, upon reflection, a stupid turn of events. But I tend to blame those decisions on my editor.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate!  



			
				Cheiromancer said:
			
		

> I'm pretty sure that if you asked for volunteers, any number of folks on the message boards would offer to buy it for you.  It doesn't have to be someone in Ireland or something, does it?
> 
> If they take VISA, I'll do it for you.  E-mail is jimstenberg at hotmail dot com.  Just direct me to an on-line form and tell me the specifics of what I have to fill in.




Well if I don't get things sorted this weekend I'll probably take you up on the offer. Hopefully I'll get it taken care of so as not to be an imposition.

Thanks again for the support. Much appreciated.


----------



## Kirin'Tor

Greetings U_K! Wow...it's been ages since I've seen you...I've still got that old 3/30/2003 PDF copy of the IH appendicies I-III, including the illustirous "Challenging Challenge Ratings"...

so what's the news? This thread is a bit lengthy to peruse, so I'll cut to the meat: What's the status on the IH? And what's this thing your wating on a friend to do?

I finally got around to getting (some of) that campaign website together...the one I spoke about way back when. Just as then as know, I can't wait for the IH to be out so I can stat some gods...

Anyway, I'll try to keep up with this thread now that I've found it..

--Thomas


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Thanks for sticking up for me.




Any time, U_K.



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> You know about 3 1/2 years ago I actually posted (what was then) the worship points system on these boards. It was about 2-3 pages worth of material.




Of course at that time I wasn't a fan -- I posted here more rarely and mostly to point out flaws.  I've mellowed over time. 

Well, I guess I'll keep my questions short and far between now, in the hopes that the time you aren't answering my questions will bring you closer to completion.  I'd really like to have the Apotheosis PDF in the next quarter-year, and with luck the hardcopy early in 2005.  Does that sound reasonable?

(Yes, I realize my 'I'll stop asking questions now' paragraph turned into a 'when will it be done' question.  I blame it on my desire for the book.)


----------



## historian

Howdy Krust!  



> That seems a bit too fussy for what should really be quick and painless.
> 
> I think a better idea is just for me to wait until one of my friends is able to do it, who knows I may even get it sorted this weekend? *fingers crossed*




Agreed, and good luck.  



> Its just one of those real life circumstances that just keep slapping me in the face, but I'll get there in the end.




I know you will.  



> Well hey, thanks so much mate. I really appreciate the thought but I think I'd like to get this sorted by someone whom I can directly pay rather than be beholden to anyone.




You're welcome -- Just so I'm clear, anything that I would offer over e-mail, like here, would come w/o strings attached, i.e., truly detached generosity, if you will.  My e-mail invitation was another way of saying I'll do whatever I can to help, while understanding that you might not want to hash everything out on a message board.

But it sounds like you've got it covered, and I couldn't be happier to hear it.  

Well, onto my substantive question:

Now that you've had a chance to rethink metempiric abilities and the supernal template, do you have a sense as to the highest CR that the IH will cover? 

Thanks in advance dude.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Kirin'Tor said:
			
		

> Greetings U_K! Wow...it's been ages since I've seen you...I've still got that old 3/30/2003 PDF copy of the IH appendicies I-III, including the illustirous "Challenging Challenge Ratings"...




Must be about 8 months then. 

Hope you are keeping well Kirin'Tor mate? 



			
				Kirin'Tor said:
			
		

> so what's the news? This thread is a bit lengthy to peruse, so I'll cut to the meat: What's the status on the IH?




Well the news is that the first pdf is very close to being finished but some real life has recently raised its ugly head and I have been finding it hard getting any quality time to finish things off.



			
				Kirin'Tor said:
			
		

> And what's this thing your wating on a friend to do?




I have been trying to get the domain name for my website purchased - I can't 'buy' it myself because I don't have a credit card.



			
				Kirin'Tor said:
			
		

> I finally got around to getting (some of) that campaign website together...the one I spoke about way back when. Just as then as know, I can't wait for the IH to be out so I can stat some gods...




Well I am sorry to keep you (and any others) waiting. 



			
				Kirin'Tor said:
			
		

> Anyway, I'll try to keep up with this thread now that I've found it.




Okay.


----------



## Upper_Krust

CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Any time, U_K.








			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Of course at that time I wasn't a fan -- I posted here more rarely and mostly to point out flaws.  I've mellowed over time.




Cheeky monkey! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Well, I guess I'll keep my questions short and far between now, in the hopes that the time you aren't answering my questions will bring you closer to completion.  I'd really like to have the Apotheosis PDF in the next quarter-year, and with luck the hardcopy early in 2005.  Does that sound reasonable?




If I can get one solid week of work done the first pdf would be practically ready for the editing stage.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> (Yes, I realize my 'I'll stop asking questions now' paragraph turned into a 'when will it be done' question.  I blame it on my desire for the book.)




Well I appreciate the interest people have shown and apologise for any sloth on my part.


----------



## S'mon

You don't need a domain name for a website of course, and there are free Bulletin-board providers too; not that a website initially needs a BBS, a link to ENW House Rules would do fine.


----------



## Dark Wolf 97

Hey U_K!

Got another question, or actually an idea and several questions:

My campaign is centered around a war being fought against the Dark Covenant, a group of uber-powerful baddies (a half-demon fighter18, an advanced balor, a primal vampire drd14 rng20, a death knight ftr16 blk20, primal vampire brd20 rog19, eternal lich wiz42, ghost sor26 drd26, demigod mummy clr 50, and a titan) who direct this war behind the scenes. 

My first question is: will you tell me anything on the power level you see a titan having, and what kind of powersit should have. The titan I am designing is a 75 HD beast with Str 64 Dex 13 Con 53 Int 35 Wis 40 Cha 31, and major resistances against divine powers, as well as a bad@$$ warhammer.

A major factor in the game is the fact that the gods do not realize that a titan is loose. My plans for the final battle are for the god of the cleric to intercede...and be destroyed in the fight against the Titan, grant the PCs divine power...and a whole world of trouble.

My second question: what do you think?

See you later.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi S'mon! 



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> You don't need a domain name for a website of course, and there are free Bulletin-board providers too; not that a website initially needs a BBS, a link to ENW House Rules would do fine.




Well, I was trying to lend some officiality (with regards the domain name) to proceedings.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Dark Wolf 97 said:
			
		

> Hey U_K!




Hiya mate! 



			
				Dark Wolf 97 said:
			
		

> Got another question, or actually an idea and several questions:
> 
> My campaign is centered around a war being fought against the Dark Covenant, a group of uber-powerful baddies (a half-demon fighter18, an advanced balor, a primal vampire drd14 rng20, a death knight ftr16 blk20, primal vampire brd20 rog19, eternal lich wiz42, ghost sor26 drd26, demigod mummy clr 50, and a titan) who direct this war behind the scenes.




Interesting bunch. 

How advanced is the Balor. What are Primal vampires and Eternal Liches? I presume these are third party templates?

Also note that straight up (meat and potato) Fighter types are more likely to be henchmen than leaders unless they have a large army behind them. Even then you want the Fighter types to have about 10% more levels than spellcasters to give them parity.

The half-demon 18th-level Fighter seems rather underpowered compared to the rest, which should probably reflect his standing in the group.

These characters (an advanced balor, a primal vampire drd14 rng20, a death knight ftr16 blk20, primal vampire brd20 rog19, eternal lich wiz42, ghost sor26 drd26) are all Quasi-deity level power (without actualy having the quasi-deity template that is).

The Mummy Cleric Demigod is about as powerful as a weak Lesser Power. Which means he and the Titan are clearly the most powerful.



			
				Dark Wolf 97 said:
			
		

> My first question is: will you tell me anything on the power level you see a titan having, and what kind of powers it should have.




Depends on your definition of Titan.

I mean there are Monster Manual Titans (Probably weak Quasi-deity equivalents) and Epic Level Handbook Elder Titans (probably weak Lesser Power equivalents) and Greek Titans (who fit well as either Greater Powers or Elder Ones). 



			
				Dark Wolf 97 said:
			
		

> The titan I am designing is a 75 HD beast with Str 64 Dex 13 Con 53 Int 35 Wis 40 Cha 31, and major resistances against divine powers, as well as a bad@$$ warhammer.




Presumably using the Elder Titan as a basis?



			
				Dark Wolf 97 said:
			
		

> A major factor in the game is the fact that the gods do not realize that a titan is loose. My plans for the final battle are for the god of the cleric to intercede...and be destroyed in the fight against the Titan, grant the PCs divine power...and a whole world of trouble.




How powerful is this god?

Also, out of curiousity how many PCs are there and what are there levels?



			
				Dark Wolf 97 said:
			
		

> My second question: what do you think?




I think the key to any such working relationship between evil forces is going to be power. The strong are going to try and dominate the weak. 

There definately seems to be multiple tiers within this evil group.

1. The Titan
2. The Demigod
3. All the others except...
4. The Half-demon Fighter

To me it seems as though the Demigod is the leader, the Half-demon Fighter his henchman and the others slightly subordinate but powerful enough so as not to be ordered about.

The Titan could be the beast the group were trying to free.

So I am not sure if you wanted them all to be fairly equal or if this is just a gathering of long-standing npcs, coming together for a special purpose?

You could always change the Demigod Cleric to a Hunefer (from the ELH) if you wanted them to be fairly equal.



			
				Dark Wolf 97 said:
			
		

> See you later.




Take care.


----------



## Dark Wolf 97

Hi again U_K!



> _Originally posted by U_K.
> How advanced is the Balor. What are Primal vampires and Eternal Liches? I presume these are third party templates?_





The Balor is 27 HD. The Primal Vampire template is the "first" or "first pair" in my case of vampires on a plane or the multiverse, you can see the creative geniuses at Dicefreaks for any of the templates, in the official releases forum. I also use the DF templates on the ghost (eidolon), death knight (death lord) and mummy (transcendant dead).

The half-demon fighter is actully part of a half-demon race with 6 HD, then add the 18 Fighter levels. He is the leader of the main armies, and thus his leadership.



> _Originally posted by U_K.
> The Mummy Cleric Demigod is about as powerful as a weak Lesser Power. Which means he and the Titan are clearly the most powerful._




The Mummy is actully the ruler of a nation, who worship him as their God-king. The nation is several million strong, and all worship him fanatically, but I wanted him significantly weaker than the Titan, so I made him a Demigod.



> _Originally posted by U_K.
> Depends on your definition of Titan.
> 
> I mean there are Monster Manual Titans (Probably weak Quasi-deity equivalents) and Epic Level Handbook Elder Titans (probably weak Lesser Power equivalents) and Greek Titans (who fit well as either Greater Powers or Elder Ones). _




I see the Titans as beings who emerged from the wellspring of chaos, created the gods from their own power, then went to war with them (and the Celestials) when the gods attempted to steal the Titans power. That is a large simplification of my view. Essentially the Titans created the Gods, or granted them their Divinity.

My main issue with the Titan is how powerful should he be in accordance with my view,and the same with the mummy (see above).



> _Originally posted by U_K.
> 
> How powerful is this god?
> 
> Also, out of curiousity how many PCs are there and what are there levels?
> _




Greater or Elder, also the pantheon head.

There are 5 PCs and one permanent NPC, the average level is 11. It is going to be a very long time before the encounter even the weakest of the enemies I listed.
The PCs are:
Al'Daeris Sevaren Eldessi, Elf Cleric
Ethelos Sharom, Half-elf Ranger
Anastasia von Draego, Human Wizard
Dedrick, son of Vorack, Dwarf Samurai (Complete Warrior)
Nasher Alagondar, Human Paladin
The NPC:
Elenya Var, Half-elf Rogue/Assassin (Ethelos' love interest; she is reformed now    )



> _Originally posted by U_K.
> 
> I think the key to any such working relationship between evil forces is going to be power. The strong are going to try and dominate the weak.
> 
> There definately seems to be multiple tiers within this evil group.
> 
> 1. The Titan
> 2. The Demigod
> 3. All the others except...
> 4. The Half-demon Fighter
> 
> To me it seems as though the Demigod is the leader, the Half-demon Fighter his henchman and the others slightly subordinate but powerful enough so as not to be ordered about.
> 
> The Titan could be the beast the group were trying to free.
> 
> So I am not sure if you wanted them all to be fairly equal or if this is just a gathering of long-standing npcs, coming together for a special purpose?
> 
> You could always change the Demigod Cleric to a Hunefer (from the ELH) if you wanted them to be fairly equal._




The Titan is definatly the dominator of the group. All of the others are minions, although they like to think of themselves as lesser allies (or equals in the case of the mummy).

They are as you said-
Titan
and his minions:
Mummy God
Ghost, Vampires, and Death Knight
Balor
Half-demon

They are not supposed to be equal, and some are considered lessers and treated so, although all are dangerous. None of them, except the mummy realize the nature of the Titan, or guess the nature of its goals.

Here is the major backstory: Long ago, just after the Titan were bound into their eternal prisons, the multiverse fell into another war, this one between the Gods and the Celestial hosts. A small group of Gods, both good and evil, chaotic and lawful, sought a refuge from this war. They came to one of the Primes and bound themselves to it, also creating a barrier preventing any communication or travel into or out of the plane. This barrier was infused with the power of all the gods, and seemed impenatrable. Several times it has been breached by outside forces, causing two Demon wars. 

The Titan was somehow awakened my the massive energies used to create the barrier, and he was contacted by a unknown powerful being from beyond, who told him about the seals and, if he could find them, how to destroy them. In return this being wanted the Titan to search for a powerful artifact. 

Together they engineered several breaches (both demon wars), which although unsucessful, allowed the Titan to locate nine of the thirteen seals. Now they are using the current war as a cover to find the remaining seals. The Titan's goal is to escape back into the multiverse and awaken its fellows.

The Titan is cautious of his unknown ally, and believes him to be a powerful fiend.

I have alot more... but I want to see what you think of that first.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Dark Wolf 97 said:
			
		

> Hi again U_K!




Hey Dark Wolf mate! 



			
				Dark Wolf 97 said:
			
		

> The Balor is 27 HD. The Primal Vampire template is the "first" or "first pair" in my case of vampires on a plane or the multiverse, you can see the creative geniuses at Dicefreaks for any of the templates, in the official releases forum. I also use the DF templates on the ghost (eidolon), death knight (death lord) and mummy (transcendant dead).




I'll have to go take a look.   



			
				Dark Wolf 97 said:
			
		

> The half-demon fighter is actully part of a half-demon race with 6 HD, then add the 18 Fighter levels. He is the leader of the main armies, and thus his leadership.




Still seems a bit weak compared to the rest. But as you note they are not necessarily meant to be equals.



			
				Dark Wolf 97 said:
			
		

> The Mummy is actully the ruler of a nation, who worship him as their God-king. The nation is several million strong, and all worship him fanatically, but I wanted him significantly weaker than the Titan, so I made him a Demigod.




Well, technically, under the auspices of the IH he would likely be a Lesser Power with that much worship.

Spot on average level for a Lesser Power by the way. 

Average ability score for a Lesser Power (before items) is 28. 

Going by class, the character would have the stats (again before items or indeed feats/divine abilities) something like this:

Str 42, Dex 28, Con -, Int 28, Wis 42, Cha 28 



			
				Dark Wolf 97 said:
			
		

> I see the Titans as beings who emerged from the wellspring of chaos, created the gods from their own power, then went to war with them (and the Celestials) when the gods attempted to steal the Titans power. That is a large simplification of my view. Essentially the Titans created the Gods, or granted them their Divinity.
> 
> My main issue with the Titan is how powerful should he be in accordance with my view, and the same with the mummy (see above).




Titan = Elder or Greater Power
Mummy = Lesser Power 
Others = Quasi-deities
Half-demon Fighter maybe equal to a weak Hero-deity.



			
				Dark Wolf 97 said:
			
		

> Greater or Elder, also the pantheon head.




Well it seems your Titan will need to be an Elder God if the other deity can call upon a pantheon entire. 

I'll have Surtur statted in the IH so you can see just how powerful they are.

Surtur has 150 Hit Dice by the way. 



			
				Dark Wolf 97 said:
			
		

> There are 5 PCs and one permanent NPC, the average level is 11. It is going to be a very long time before the encounter even the weakest of the enemies I listed.
> The PCs are:
> Al'Daeris Sevaren Eldessi, Elf Cleric
> Ethelos Sharom, Half-elf Ranger
> Anastasia von Draego, Human Wizard
> Dedrick, son of Vorack, Dwarf Samurai (Complete Warrior)
> Nasher Alagondar, Human Paladin
> The NPC:
> Elenya Var, Half-elf Rogue/Assassin (Ethelos' love interest; she is reformed now    )




Good mix. 



			
				Dark Wolf 97 said:
			
		

> The Titan is definatly the dominator of the group. All of the others are minions, although they like to think of themselves as lesser allies (or equals in the case of the mummy).
> 
> They are as you said-
> Titan
> and his minions:
> Mummy God
> Ghost, Vampires, and Death Knight
> Balor
> Half-demon
> 
> They are not supposed to be equal, and some are considered lessers and treated so, although all are dangerous. None of them, except the mummy realize the nature of the Titan, or guess the nature of its goals.




Its possible, that the Titan is not yet back to full power so soon following its incarceration. So it may only have Greater Power in the short term.



			
				Dark Wolf 97 said:
			
		

> Here is the major backstory: Long ago, just after the Titan were bound into their eternal prisons, the multiverse fell into another war, this one between the Gods and the Celestial hosts. A small group of Gods, both good and evil, chaotic and lawful, sought a refuge from this war. They came to one of the Primes and bound themselves to it, also creating a barrier preventing any communication or travel into or out of the plane. This barrier was infused with the power of all the gods, and seemed impenatrable. Several times it has been breached by outside forces, causing two Demon wars.
> 
> The Titan was somehow awakened my the massive energies used to create the barrier, and he was contacted by a unknown powerful being from beyond, who told him about the seals and, if he could find them, how to destroy them. In return this being wanted the Titan to search for a powerful artifact.
> 
> Together they engineered several breaches (both demon wars), which although unsucessful, allowed the Titan to locate nine of the thirteen seals. Now they are using the current war as a cover to find the remaining seals. The Titan's goal is to escape back into the multiverse and awaken its fellows.
> 
> The Titan is cautious of his unknown ally, and believes him to be a powerful fiend.
> 
> I have alot more... but I want to see what you think of that first.




I'm curious, is the unknown ally the demigod, or something else altogether?


----------



## Dark Wolf 97

Hello U_K!



> _Originally posted by U_K.
> 
> Well, technically, under the auspices of the IH he would likely be a Lesser Power with that much worship.
> 
> Spot on average level for a Lesser Power by the way.
> 
> Average ability score for a Lesser Power (before items) is 28.
> 
> Going by class, the character would have the stats (again before items or indeed feats/divine abilities) something like this:
> 
> Str 42, Dex 28, Con -, Int 28, Wis 42, Cha 28_




Just curious, What is the average ability score for a Greater/Elder God?   

As long as the mummy in no way approaches the Titan's power....lesser sounds fine.



> _Originally posted by U_K.
> 
> Well it seems your Titan will need to be an Elder God if the other deity can call upon a pantheon entire.
> 
> I'll have Surtur statted in the IH so you can see just how powerful they are.
> 
> Surtur has 150 Hit Dice by the way._




Elder God seems sufficient enough to cause worry for a pantheon. How tall is Surtur?



> _I'm curious, is the unknown ally the demigod, or something else altogether?_




Close, the unknown ally is communicating with the Demigod, telling it about the Titan and its secrets. Creating a 'backup' ally of sorts.

Later


----------



## Upper_Krust

Dark Wolf 97 said:
			
		

> Hello U_K!




Hiya mate! 



			
				Dark Wolf 97 said:
			
		

> Just curious, What is the average ability score for a Greater/Elder God?




42/57



			
				Dark Wolf 97 said:
			
		

> As long as the mummy in no way approaches the Titan's power....lesser sounds fine.








			
				Dark Wolf 97 said:
			
		

> Elder God seems sufficient enough to cause worry for a pantheon. How tall is Surtur?




Well I have him at 300' (since of course as a fan of the Mighty Thor I prefer Surtur to be titanic like he is in the comic, even though they define him as 1000' tall they only represent him as about 300'). 

http://www.immortalthor.net./bio-surtur.html

However, as an Outsider of course his height and Hit Dice are not relative to one another.



			
				Dark Wolf 97 said:
			
		

> Close, the unknown ally is communicating with the Demigod, telling it about the Titan and its secrets. Creating a 'backup' ally of sorts.




Interesting.


----------



## Anabstercorian

How high level would a fighter have to be before he could beat up a 20th level wizard, without any magical or alchemical equipment?


----------



## Dark Wolf 97

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hiya mate!




Hey Again.



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> 42/57
> 
> Thanks! A question- I don't see Titans as having super-high mental scores, what about you?
> Also...
> Any chance of me getting the Titans ability scores.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Upper_Krust said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well I have him at 300' (since of course as a fan of the Mighty Thor I prefer Surtur to be titanic like he is in the comic, even though they define him as 1000' tall they only represent him as about 300').
> 
> http://www.immortalthor.net./bio-surtur.html
> 
> However, as an Outsider of course his height and Hit Dice are not relative to one another.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If Surtur is at 300', would that put him at Colossal++? How do abilities increase after colossal? What about spot and listen checks, etc...?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Upper_Krust said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks. If my PCs decide to stick around, my campaign will go on quite a while, extending into Godhood.
Click to expand...


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Anabstercorian mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> How high level would a fighter have to be before he could beat up a 20th level wizard, without any magical or alchemical equipment?




According to my figures a 27th-level Fighter with 2nd-level equipment although no magical (or alchemical) equipment should be on a par with a 20th-level Wizard.

It actually works out at 27.3 with no equipment at all, and each level of equipment is -0.2 in this case...just to be exact.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Dark Wolf 97 said:
			
		

> Hey Again.




Howdy! 



			
				Dark Wolf 97 said:
			
		

> If Surtur is at 300', would that put him at Colossal++?




Yes, I am calling that Titanic (256-511')



			
				Dark Wolf 97 said:
			
		

> How do abilities increase after colossal? What about spot and listen checks, etc...?




Everything extrapolates pretty much as you would expect it.



			
				Dark Wolf 97 said:
			
		

> Thanks. If my PCs decide to stick around, my campaign will go on quite a while, extending into Godhood.




Well good luck to them...and you.


----------



## S'mon

Interesting discussions in the d20 forum re Grim Tales & U_K's CR system.  Grim Tales says to multiply UK-CR by 2/3 to conform with Monster Manual CR, I suggested that if you're keeping PC-class level-X = CR-X then the undivided CRs are probably closer to the mark; Monster Manual CRs are generally much lower than you'd expect if they were equivalent to 25-PB NPCs with standard NPC wealth, and Grim Tales PCs are likely to be even weaker at higher levels.


----------



## Anabstercorian

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hi Anabstercorian mate!
> 
> 
> 
> According to my figures a 27th-level Fighter with 2nd-level equipment although no magical (or alchemical) equipment should be on a par with a 20th-level Wizard.
> 
> It actually works out at 27.3 with no equipment at all, and each level of equipment is -0.2 in this case...just to be exact.




Which leads me to my next question - are there any feats that will help 'non-magic' classes such as fighters to be less dependent on spellcasters/equipment for transportation, defense, and so on?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya matey! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> Which leads me to my next question - are there any feats that will help 'non-magic' classes such as fighters to be less dependent on spellcasters/equipment for transportation, defense, and so on?




Tons actually...and thats before you even start considering the divinity templates themselves.

I am a big fan of Hong Kong cinema and a large number of the feats are warrior/monk inspired. Have a guess what the Sky Walker and Ether Goer feats do for instance. 

I'll also try and outline the best Hong Kong (and Japanese and Korean) movies and television shows which can help inspire your epic and immortal gaming in the website.


----------



## Anabstercorian

Excellent!  Stupid wizards, having all the fun.  Fighters need more boot-to-ass-guidance-systems at higher levels in order to really compete.


----------



## Iceflame55

*Glad to see IH close to finished!*

I'm pretty sure you not remember me U_K, but I started a topic on Highlander Immortals on WoTC boards a year of so back, and you mentioned IH then. I ran into hints it's getting close to done over at dicefreaks, and decided to check it out over here since this is where the news is coming most often. Here's to hoping things straighten out fast, so we can all dive headfirst into IH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!    


P.S. In case you wondered, I registered here just for this thread


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Anabstercorian mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> Excellent!  Stupid wizards, having all the fun.  Fighters need more boot-to-ass-guidance-systems at higher levels in order to really compete.




I think I have most of the classes covered very well, although the majority of all feats and abilities are of course generic (although they may well be slanted as martial or magical). 

Probably for class specific feats and divine abilities the Bard and Druid classes are less well represented than some of the others, but looking at the ELH they did seem to cover those classes well and I make a habit of not creating feats and abilities that are simply more powerful versions of existing ones.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Howdy Iceflame55! 



			
				Iceflame55 said:
			
		

> I'm pretty sure you not remember me U_K,




I apologise, my memory is not the best I'm afraid. 



			
				Iceflame55 said:
			
		

> but I started a topic on Highlander Immortals on WoTC boards a year of so back, and you mentioned IH then.




How time flies!   



			
				Iceflame55 said:
			
		

> I ran into hints it's getting close to done over at dicefreaks, and decided to check it out over here since this is where the news is coming most often.




In lieu of a website just at the moment this is certainly the place to hear about the latest 



			
				Iceflame55 said:
			
		

> Here's to hoping things straighten out fast, so we can all dive headfirst into IH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




I appreciate the love mate. 



			
				Iceflame55 said:
			
		

> P.S. In case you wondered, I registered here just for this thread




I'm flattered. 

Though I am sure you will find a lot of people and posts here very interesting and helpful.


----------



## Paragon

hhhmmm......


----------



## Iceflame55

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Howdy Iceflame55!
> 
> 
> I'm flattered.
> 
> Though I am sure you will find a lot of people and posts here very interesting and helpful.




 *Bows* Thank you! And I'm very sure I'll find other things for entertainment, though at the moment, all my mind seems to want to focus on is the Immortals Handbook (hmmm, given the way my mind works, it's likely it's still in shock at discovering how close it is to reading something I've had dreams of seeing for AGES!)


----------



## Anabstercorian

Has anyone who's read Maure Castle felt that some of the creatures introduced in it were a little...  undervalued in terms of Challenge Rating?  I speak most specifically of the Terrible Iron Golem and the Shoosuva, though Kerzit is also suspect.

Any other opinons?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Paragon mate! 



			
				Paragon said:
			
		

> hhhmmm......




Easy tiger, I'm on it. 

Incidently (while I am here), both the Supernal template and the 8 Metempiric powers have been removed from the latest draft of the IH. I just don't think they were useful enough to warrant the space. Though both will still be mentioned.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Iceflame55 matey! 



			
				Iceflame55 said:
			
		

> *Bows* Thank you! And I'm very sure I'll find other things for entertainment, though at the moment, all my mind seems to want to focus on is the Immortals Handbook (hmmm, given the way my mind works, it's likely it's still in shock at discovering how close it is to reading something I've had dreams of seeing for AGES!)




Okay now I am blushing.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> Has anyone who's read Maure Castle felt that some of the creatures introduced in it were a little...  undervalued in terms of Challenge Rating?  I speak most specifically of the Terrible Iron Golem and the Shoosuva, though Kerzit is also suspect.
> 
> Any other opinons?




I did happen to pick up that issue (my first since the epic adventure).

As a general rule of thumb official CRs are always wrong. 

A quick scan over the Terrible Iron Golem suggests its in the area of CR 21 which would make it about CR 14 by WotC reckoning - in the adventure its listed as CR 16 which is okay I guess.

Kerzit is CR 37 by my reckoning, which should mean CR 24 is a better value for the official CR.

Kerzit also meets one of the prerequisites for Demon Lord status (his Hit Dice) putting him on a par with a Solar, though he should have a CR of 40+ as well. Looking at his stats he doesn't have any magic items which is one of the reasons his CR is slightly lower than it otherwise could be.

The Shooshuva works out at CR 15, so CR 10 (again using the 2/3 rule) would be more appropriate.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hey Paragon mate!
> 
> 
> 
> Easy tiger, I'm on it.
> 
> Incidently (while I am here), both the Supernal template and the 8 Metempiric powers have been removed from the latest draft of the IH. I just don't think they were useful enough to warrant the space. Though both will still be mentioned.




Will you, by any chance, post them -- either here or on your site?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Will you, by any chance, post them -- either here or on your site?




Not in the short term.

A few of the Metempiric powers may eventually wind up as Omnific powers in one form or another.

The Supernal template is still (indirectly) going to be in the book - I'll say no more than that. 

Also I may (indirectly again) use the Supernal name for the more powerful Time Lords...titularly 'the Supreme Lords of Life'.


----------



## Iceflame55

No need for blushes when you ARE a genius.   

And my mind tends to act strangely when surprised; I had honestly though you'd hit a big enough snag you'd given up! I'm very glad though my assumpion was wrong though    


*Forgive me if I'm being rather talkative. It happens when I'm excitable


----------



## Upper_Krust

hey Iceflame55 matey! 



			
				Iceflame55 said:
			
		

> No need for blushes when you ARE a genius.




Well genius is a pretty strong word but I think I can handle it. 

...that said there are quite a few geniuses on these boards so I'm in good company. 



			
				Iceflame55 said:
			
		

> And my mind tends to act strangely when surprised; I had honestly though you'd hit a big enough snag you'd given up! I'm very glad though my assumpion was wrong though




I had never given up though things were set back a few months when I was concentrating on the CR/EL system.



			
				Iceflame55 said:
			
		

> *Forgive me if I'm being rather talkative. It happens when I'm excitable




Thats okay mate, I appreciate the interest.


----------



## historian

Howdy Krust!  



> A few of the Metempiric powers may eventually wind up as Omnific powers in one form or another.
> 
> The Supernal template is still (indirectly) going to be in the book - I'll say no more than that.




Sweet!  

Quick question -- could you give me an idea as to the supernal templates 'average' CR (I know this depends on several things, but I'm thinking more middle of the road)?  How about a high end time lord?

Thanks in advance.


----------



## Upper_Krust

historian said:
			
		

> Howdy Krust!




Hiya mate!  



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Sweet!
> 
> Quick question -- could you give me an idea as to the supernal templates 'average' CR (I know this depends on several things, but I'm thinking more middle of the road)?  How about a high end time lord?
> 
> Thanks in advance.




Well I have made a few changes recently, and Time Lords now start at about CR 1000+. I think it makes much more sense to reign the high end CRs in a bit, so that they see more use.

Supernals (in the guise of the formerly more powerful Time Lords) are technically any CR above that you want, its an open ended template but there are set guidelines, which of course I don't want to give away. If that sounds like a contradiction you will just have to wait and see.


----------



## DarkElven

Hey Krust, how have you been?
Its been probably closing in on a year and a half since I posted anything anywhere... 

But I just had to come out of the woodwork to congratulate you on getting close to release! (If its not the case perhaps by starting a paranoid riot believing its almost out will goad you into pushing it out)

Even though I am going to continue staying out of sight and out of mind, I just wanted to reiterate, once more, just how excited I am to see it!

Just one question.

Why are you reading this instead of finishing it! *cracks whip*

Take care.


----------



## Upper_Krust

DarkElven said:
			
		

> Hey Krust, how have you been?




Not so good mate, sore throat these past few days, only just about shaking it off now. 



			
				DarkElven said:
			
		

> Its been probably closing in on a year and a half since I posted anything anywhere...




Maybe you are holding yourself in reserve for a massive counter offensive. 



			
				DarkElven said:
			
		

> But I just had to come out of the woodwork to congratulate you on getting close to release! (If its not the case perhaps by starting a paranoid riot believing its almost out will goad you into pushing it out)




Well lets just hold off on the back slapping until people have it in their hands.



			
				DarkElven said:
			
		

> Even though I am going to continue staying out of sight and out of mind, I just wanted to reiterate, once more, just how excited I am to see it!




I appreciate the excitement. 



			
				DarkElven said:
			
		

> Just one question.
> 
> Why are you reading this instead of finishing it! *cracks whip*




I was just being courteous. 



			
				DarkElven said:
			
		

> Take care.




Thanks.

By the way I should have the domain name by tomorrow (yes I know finally), so with a bit of luck I should have the website up before the weekend.


----------



## Zhnov

DarkElven said:
			
		

> (If its not the case perhaps by starting a paranoid riot believing its almost out will goad you into pushing it out)




Shall we count potential rioters? UK fan club thread, anybody?  

<sigh> What a lurker magnet.


----------



## Fieari

Tommorow?  _Tommorow?!?_  Oh boy oh boy oh boy oh boy...

Pity that doesn't mean the _PDF_ is ready tommorow though.  I really need this handbook.  Gah!

To make this not be just another whine post, here's a story related question.  Back story for one of my campaigns includes a guy (mortal) some indeterminable period of time ago probably in another plane who strived to become a god somehow, and succeeded.  He then went on a devestating rampage throughout the multiverse, really... shall we say... enjoying his powers, mostly by ripping things apart.  The guy fancied himself a real god of chaos.  It got to the point where local deities really couldn't do anything to stop his onslaught, which is where my (mentioned in a previous post) World Phoenixes came in.  Even they, massing as an army, couldn't destroy him utterly, but they did at last manage to lock him into a single plane, more or less for all eternity.

The campaign involves the keys to this lock, which basically manifest in the life force of specific mortals scattered around the multiverse.  The essence of the keys (or locks, if you will) is inheritable, so as long as each key/lock holder has a son or daughter, things are okay.

At any rate, my related question is: What is the most rapid advancement plan for a deity looking to gain pure destructive power?  I can't imagine it'd be collecting worshippers, although that might help... I'm thinking Black&White, make some nations fear and tremble about you to gain power.  Sacrifices?  I know you mentioned they can kill other gods to absorb their essence, so I'll likely be using that route, but I was wondering if there was anything MORE that could be done?  And how effective is absorbing weaker deities?  I mean... can you work your way up by slaughtering those obviously weaker than yourself?

Does worship follow you wherever you go, assuming you can planeswalk?

Does your system have any sorts of rules for what I described, namely, "Locking a god away in a plane where he can't do any more damage"?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Fieari and Orlic! 



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> Tommorow?  _Tommorow?!?_  Oh boy oh boy oh boy oh boy...




Well I'll definately have the domain name tomorrow, give me another day or two after that to get everything on the website sorted.



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> Pity that doesn't mean the _PDF_ is ready tommorow though.  I really need this handbook.  Gah!




Sorry about that.



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> To make this not be just another whine post, here's a story related question.  Back story for one of my campaigns includes a guy (mortal) some indeterminable period of time ago probably in another plane who strived to become a god somehow, and succeeded.  He then went on a devestating rampage throughout the multiverse, really... shall we say... enjoying his powers, mostly by ripping things apart.  The guy fancied himself a real god of chaos.  It got to the point where local deities really couldn't do anything to stop his onslaught, which is where my (mentioned in a previous post) World Phoenixes came in.  Even they, massing as an army, couldn't destroy him utterly, but they did at last manage to lock him into a single plane, more or less for all eternity.
> 
> The campaign involves the keys to this lock, which basically manifest in the life force of specific mortals scattered around the multiverse.  The essence of the keys (or locks, if you will) is inheritable, so as long as each key/lock holder has a son or daughter, things are okay.




Interesting idea.



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> At any rate, my related question is: What is the most rapid advancement plan for a deity looking to gain pure destructive power?




Slaying more powerful deities.

Absorbing the power from artifacts.



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> I can't imagine it'd be collecting worshippers, although that might help... I'm thinking Black&White, make some nations fear and tremble about you to gain power.




Such nations are already likely to have gods of their own who won't take kindly to your interference.



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> Sacrifices?




Can give you a short term boost, but generally used to empower mortals who perform the sacrifice ceremony.



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> I know you mentioned they can kill other gods to absorb their essence, so I'll likely be using that route, but I was wondering if there was anything MORE that could be done?




There are other things, some limited to a place, some limited to a time.



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> And how effective is absorbing weaker deities?




Not very. You really need to be killing more powerful deities to see any rapid advancement in power.



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> I mean... can you work your way up by slaughtering those obviously weaker than yourself?




You could but it would take you ages, depending on how much weaker the victims were.

If you killed about 100,000 Quasi-deities you might make it to Greater Power.



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> Does worship follow you wherever you go, assuming you can planeswalk?




Yes. 

However, worship starts to wane when you are magically severed from your worshippers (ie. when you can't grant spells).



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> Does your system have any sorts of rules for what I described, namely, "Locking a god away in a plane where he can't do any more damage"?




Yes. There are spells are used to bind deities.


----------



## Iceflame55

The site goes up tomorrow? YIPPEE!!!!!!!!! *Starts to bounce around room like Tigger on Speed*

I'm with Fieari on the lament about the .PDF not being up as fast as the site; but at least it means we're nearly to the Ultimate Prize


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Well I'll definately have the domain name tomorrow, give me another day or two after that to get everything on the website sorted.




Interesting.  Thursday or Friday and the site's up?  Awesome!

(With no intended disrespect,) I'd be happy to see it up by Monday, to be frank.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Iceflame55 matey! 



			
				Iceflame55 said:
			
		

> The site goes up tomorrow? YIPPEE!!!!!!!!! *Starts to bounce around room like Tigger on Speed*




Easy Tigger! 

As of 10 minutes ago I now own www.immortalshandbook.com

It supposedly (according to the registry site) takes 24 hours to process things during which time I'll try and finish off a few articles for the site I am working on. Hopefully I'll have eveything ready by Thursday night and could have the website online by Friday.

When I get things online I will start a new thread here in the House Rules forum (as sort of a surrogate message board for all things site related) until such time as I get my own message boards set up.



			
				Iceflame55 said:
			
		

> I'm with Fieari on the lament about the .PDF not being up as fast as the site; but at least it means we're nearly to the Ultimate Prize




Well, with the website done I can shortly concentrate on the PDF.

I'll try and update the website every weekend, while working on the PDFs during the week.


----------



## historian

Howdy Krust!  



> As of 10 minutes ago I now own www.immortalshandbook.com
> 
> It supposedly (according to the registry site) takes 24 hours to process things during which time I'll try and finish off a few articles for the site I am working on. Hopefully I'll have eveything ready by Thursday night and could have the website online by Friday.
> 
> When I get things online I will start a new thread here in the House Rules forum (as sort of a surrogate message board for all things site related) until such time as I get my own message boards set up.




Congratulations!


----------



## Revenge of the Bjorn

I'm not dead!  Or at least I think not.  You miss a couple days of lurking and everything goes crazy...

Anyway glad to see you got the website on track.  We're banging on all cylinders now, eh?


----------



## Paragon

sweetness


----------



## Iceflame55

Paragon said:
			
		

> sweetness




 You *really* have a talent for understatement there, you know that don't you?     


 So U_K, since you've got the site, any estimate how long before we can all get our hot little hands (or paws, claws, tentacles, etc.) on the object of our current obsession?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi all! 

Appreciate the support.

Does anyone know how to take some screen grabs from dvds? I want to get some screenshots on the website.

Thanks.


----------



## poilbrun

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Does anyone know how to take some screen grabs from dvds? I want to get some screenshots on the website.



If you're looking the DVD on PC, pausing the DVD when you want to create the screen shot, pressing print screen, and pasting the image in MS Paint should do the trick. Alternatively, there are special programs made for that such as http://www.caltroxsoft.com/products/ace-winscreen.htm . The freeware version only allows you save BMP images, which are quite large, but you can always open them in MS Paint, and _Save as_ a GIF or JPEG. It's easy to find other programs too, by doing a search on _screen capture software_ or here: http://www.tucows.com/scapt95_default.html .

Congratulations on the domain name!


----------



## The Great Bear King

I have a rule for my campaign that says that all but one of the gods is an outsider of some sort (in other words Tezcatlipoca is a demon lord, Odin and Thor are Chaotic celestials, Hades [also known as Anubus] rules Mecahanus [properly called Hades] and is a Lawful Neutral outsider, Zeus is the lord of Limbo and king of the Sladdi and a Chaotic Neutral outsider, Beelezbub [the Devil] is treated as a greater god, Set [AKA Loki AKA Cronus] is another demon lord, and Osiris [Thanatos] is a Lawful celestial).


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> As of 10 minutes ago I now own www.immortalshandbook.com
> 
> It supposedly (according to the registry site) takes 24 hours to process things during which time I'll try and finish off a few articles for the site I am working on. Hopefully I'll have eveything ready by Thursday night and could have the website online by Friday.
> 
> When I get things online I will start a new thread here in the House Rules forum (as sort of a surrogate message board for all things site related) until such time as I get my own message boards set up.




Congratulations!

Make sure to mention the thread not only here but on the site so everyone can get there.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey poilbrun matey! 



			
				poilbrun said:
			
		

> If you're looking the DVD on PC, pausing the DVD when you want to create the screen shot, pressing print screen, and pasting the image in MS Paint should do the trick. Alternatively, there are special programs made for that such as http://www.caltroxsoft.com/products/ace-winscreen.htm . The freeware version only allows you save BMP images, which are quite large, but you can always open them in MS Paint, and _Save as_ a GIF or JPEG. It's easy to find other programs too, by doing a search on _screen capture software_ or here: http://www.tucows.com/scapt95_default.html .




Thanks for the advice mate, I'll try that.



			
				poilbrun said:
			
		

> Congratulations on the domain name!




Well it was long overdue.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Howdy Great Bear King! 



			
				The Great Bear King said:
			
		

> I have a rule for my campaign that says that all but one of the gods is an outsider of some sort (in other words Tezcatlipoca is a demon lord, Odin and Thor are Chaotic celestials, Hades [also known as Anubus] rules Mecahanus [properly called Hades] and is a Lawful Neutral outsider, Zeus is the lord of Limbo and king of the Sladdi and a Chaotic Neutral outsider, Beelezbub [the Devil] is treated as a greater god, Set [AKA Loki AKA Cronus] is another demon lord, and Osiris [Thanatos] is a Lawful celestial).




Interesting take on things, I presume you have one God ruling each plane?

However, maybe Thor is the King of the Slaad? 

www.immortalthor.net/thor-366.jpg


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Congratulations!




Thanks! Although I just recieved an email from the website which says (among other things):

"Please note that it will take up to 72 hours before your domain is active."

So it appears that Sunday/Monday does indeed seem the more likely. 

However, I'll try and use that time productively...hopefully by then I will have sorted this screen grab thing out. 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Make sure to mention the thread not only here but on the site so everyone can get there.




I will.


----------



## Fieari

As of this moment I went to www.immortalshandbook.com and instead of the usual DNS error, I got the message 







> Welcome to www.immortalshandbook.com !
> 
> This site is currently under construction
> 
> Please come back again later
> 
> This parking page is a free complimentary service provided by Active-Domain Co. & Active Venture Pte Ltd:
> 
> Domain registration service by Active-Domain.com : Buy domain name, register domain name, and domain transfer from $8.50.
> 
> Webhosting service by Active-Venture.com for single or multiple domain hosting and website hosting at affordable price.
> 
> Thursday 22 July 2004 17:26:47 1090517207



Wouldn't this suggest it's now working and waiting for the page to be put up?


----------



## BSF

It may suggest that, but there may still be issues on the ISP side before Upper_Krust can begin to upload his material for the site.  The important thing is that the site is rolling forward.  

Congratulations Upper_Krust!  My DM keeps asking me when you will be done with the Immortal's Handbook, this is one more tidbit of information I can give him.  Probably tonight, at gaming.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi all! 

Listen I may not have the website up until sometime next week. I just found out a few hours ago that my grandfather died. I'm pretty gutted at the minute. Right now I am just playing things by ear, obviously I'm going to be busy over the next few days. So I'll get back to you all whenever.



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> As of this moment I went to www.immortalshandbook.com and instead of the usual DNS error, I got the message Wouldn't this suggest it's now working and waiting for the page to be put up?




I don't honestly know to be fair, sorry.



			
				BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> It may suggest that, but there may still be issues on the ISP side before Upper_Krust can begin to upload his material for the site. The important thing is that the site is rolling forward.
> 
> Congratulations Upper_Krust! My DM keeps asking me when you will be done with the Immortal's Handbook, this is one more tidbit of information I can give him. Probably tonight, at gaming.




I'll try and get things sorted as soon as possible mate.


----------



## Iceflame55

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hi all!
> 
> Listen I may not have the website up until sometime next week. I just found out a few hours ago that my grandfather died. I'm pretty gutted at the minute. Right now I am just playing things by ear, obviously I'm going to be busy over the next few days. So I'll get back to you all whenever.





     !!

My condolances for your loss. We buried my da not to long ago, and seriously thought my mom was about to follow. So I'll do my best to restrain my enthusiasm about your work, at least for a little while. Take Care my friend


----------



## Fieari

I've seen death far too often in this world.  I've come to the sincere conclusion that death sucks.  It sounds trite, simple, and easy to say, but you have to understand how heartfelt and convinced I am of this.  I read Tolkien and how mortality is a gift to humans and don't buy it.  I hear talk of how death is a necessary thing for the good of the rest of us, and can't understand it.  I see discussions of how those at the end must welcome the transition, out of curiousity if nothing else, and I can't help but weep in my heart.  Death sucks.  Death is horrible, terrible, awful.  And even if others are right and death is great for the dying person, it's still hideous here on earth, for those left standing on solid ground.

Be well.  Find comfort.  Take your time.  Though neither I or anyone else can say we know exactly how you feel, since every relationship is different, every reaction different, we can at least offer respect and condolences.  Peace be with you.


----------



## Kavon

I offer my condolences as well. I know what it feels like to lose a grandparent.  
You just forget about us for a while, and focus on handling the loss... Emotional stuff..er.. Not sure what to say


----------



## Aaron L

I am thinking of you U_K.


----------



## Knight Otu

My condolences, Upper_Krust. I understand how you must feel, as I went through the same experience a few days ago. Take your time. Everyone will understand it.


----------



## Paragon

my thoughts and prayers are with you and your family.


----------



## BSF

UK,
I'm sorry.  Take time to grieve and focus on the good memories you have.  Best wishes and take care of yourself.


----------



## DarkElven

My condolences   . I wish I knew expressful words that could bring comfort to you in this tragic hour but sadly words always fail me at times like these. My heart goes out to you and your family. Take care of yourself.

Best wishes.


----------



## Dark Wolf 97

I'm sorry. I hope so sort through all this ok. Good Luck.


----------



## historian

My sincerest condolences U_K, I am sorry to hear the news.


----------



## CRGreathouse

You have my condolences, Craig.  The experience of losing a grandfather is still somewhat fresh for me, having happened some months past.  I truly empathize.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi all!

Thanks for the kind words, much appreciated.

I was a bit stunned on the night, we were very close and even though he was of moderate ill health for someone of 82 years, it was still something of a shock.

Incidently my grandfather (a former bookmakers clerk) was a maths genius and responsible for my pre-school education. So you probably have him to thank indirectly for the Challenge Rating/Encounter Level stuff. 

At the moment I am a bit drained from the events (I penned his eulogy last night which wasn't easy), but I am sure after we have the wake on Monday I will be in good spirits again.

As a people we are very pragmatic about mortality here in Northern Ireland, we don't mourn the death, but rather we celebrate the life. So as soon as I get the time I'll be back on the wagon, no worries.


----------



## Iceflame55

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hi all!
> 
> Thanks for the kind words, much appreciated.
> 
> I was a bit stunned on the night, we were very close and even though he was of moderate ill health for someone of 82 years, it was still something of a shock.
> 
> Incidently my grandfather (a former bookmakers clerk) was a maths genius and responsible for my pre-school education. So you probably have him to thank indirectly for the Challenge Rating/Encounter Level stuff.
> 
> At the moment I am a bit drained from the events (I penned his eulogy last night which wasn't easy), but I am sure after we have the wake on Monday I will be in good spirits again.
> 
> As a people we are very pragmatic about mortality here in Northern Ireland, we don't mourn the death, but rather we celebrate the life. So as soon as I get the time I'll be back on the wagon, no worries.




 Cool . I'm glad to know where part of the Great Work was from! And I'm sure we'll all be here, waiting with bated breath for your next update


----------



## Gez

My condolences, Craig. I'm always awkward with expressing my feelings in these situations, but I empathise. I lost my last grandfather too, last year (and, more recently, one of my cousines), so I feel your loss.


----------



## The Great Bear King

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Howdy Great Bear King!
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting take on things, I presume you have one God ruling each plane?
> 
> However, maybe Thor is the King of the Slaad?
> 
> www.immortalthor.net/thor-366.jpg




[/INDENT]Ruling, governing, whatever you like to call it. I do have an idea however. Change the names of the Outer Planes. I don't think that Olympus should be the name of the Chaotic Good plane of the afterlife, but I'm not going to tell you my name for it directly. The Lawful Good plane should be Elysum and not the "Seven Heavens" (I use the term Seven Heavens to refer to all of the Upper Planes). "Asgard" should be changed to the Land of Song and Wine and should be goverened by Dyonisis. And last but not least for the Upper Planes, the Neutral Good plane should be renamed Nirvana.

Mecanus (also known as "Nirvana") should instead be named Hades,
after Its ruler (he's also known as Anubis). Limbo should also be called by the name Olympus. Like in Greek mythology Olympus is ruled by Zeus.

And for the Lower Planes I'd change the name "Hades" to simply the Gray Wastes.​


----------



## The Great Bear King

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Howdy Great Bear King!
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting take on things, I presume you have one God ruling each plane?
> 
> However, maybe Thor is the King of the Slaad?
> 
> www.immortalthor.net/thor-366.jpg




[/INDENT]Ruling, governing, whatever you like to call it. I do have an idea however. Change the names of the Outer Planes. I don't think that Olympus should be the name of the Chaotic Good plane of the afterlife, but I'm not going to tell you my name for it directly. The Lawful Good plane should be Elysum and not the "Seven Heavens" (I use the term Seven Heavens to refer to all of the Upper Planes). "Asgard" should be changed to the Land of Song and Wine and should be goverened by Dyonisis. And last but not least for the Upper Planes, the Neutral Good plane should be renamed Nirvana.

Mecanus (also known as "Nirvana") should instead be named Hades,
after its ruler (he's also known as Anubis). Limbo should also be called by the name Olympus. Like in Greek mythology Olympus is ruled by Zeus.

And for the Lower Planes I'd change the name "Hades" to simply the Gray Wastes.​


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi all!

Just wanted to say a final thanks for the kind messages and emails. The funeral was held yesterday, but I still have to take care of the distribution of the estate for the next day or two, so I may still be a bit busy over that time.

Hello Great Bear King! 



			
				The Great Bear King said:
			
		

> Ruling, governing, whatever you like to call it.




That was easy to pick up from your previous post.

Looking over a completely open cosmology it becomes impossible to keep the 1 plane/1 ruling hierarchy dynamic within the Great Wheel setup (17 outer planes).

Simply because as well as numerous human social pantheons you have non-human racial dynastys; political councils and the planar hegemonies. 

In fact you could really have one of each (Pantheon, Dynasty, Council and Hegemony) on every plane; and depending on which plane it was the strongest faction could be any of the above.



			
				The Great Bear King said:
			
		

> I do have an idea however. Change the names of the Outer Planes. I don't think that Olympus should be the name of the Chaotic Good plane of the afterlife, but I'm not going to tell you my name for it directly. The Lawful Good plane should be Elysum and not the "Seven Heavens" (I use the term Seven Heavens to refer to all of the Upper Planes). "Asgard" should be changed to the Land of Song and Wine and should be goverened by Dyonisis. And last but not least for the Upper Planes, the Neutral Good plane should be renamed Nirvana.




I think changing the planar names at this stage (for the Great Wheel setup) is just going to confuse people.

Regarding the Seven Heavens there are numerous uses of the numerology within.

Seven Layers
Seven (Holy) Planes
Seven (Known) Dimensions

All of the above could be regarded as the Seven Heavens.



			
				The Great Bear King said:
			
		

> Mecanus (also known as "Nirvana") should instead be named Hades,
> after its ruler (he's also known as Anubis). Limbo should also be called by the name Olympus. Like in Greek mythology Olympus is ruled by Zeus.
> 
> And for the Lower Planes I'd change the name "Hades" to simply the Gray Wastes.




One thing I am not happy with is the neutral Outsiders being the Rilmani and I may change that with an entry in the IH bestiary.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> One thing I am not happy with is the neutral Outsiders being the Rilmani and I may change that with an entry in the IH bestiary.




Can you expand on this at all?


----------



## Chosen01

Hi Krust!  

Been busy and will continue to be for some time. Anyway, take a look at Chapter 1 of Dicefreaks' first project, The Gates of Hell. Check it out!


----------



## CRGreathouse

I'd like to know how creation works in the IH.  One of the things I'd have to change from the D&Dg system to fit my world are the Creation SDAs.  Basically, if a deity wants to create their own forms of life, they need 3-4 SDAs, including one that requires Divine Rank 16+ (Greater Deity).

This is because, as you've said before, creators of races (Moradin, Corellon Laurethian, etc.) are pantheon heads, and should be powerful.

In my campaign, while 'racial' deities exist, they are not pantheon heads and are decidedly not powerful.  In general, they're lesser deities.  In fact, IMC, most are the direct followers (servants?) of their Sidereal creator...

Could your system be tweaked to make this work? (Would it need to be?)  Are there any unexpected side-effects that could happen as a result?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Can you expand on this at all?




Well, as I see it, all outsiders (or to be slightly more specific those from the outer planes) originally came from the same spiritual source.

This actually fits well with why Angels are above Archons and other good aligned outsiders. 

So all the outsiders originally stem from an angelic source.

The cliche being the fallen angels (devils) of course. But there were other groups such as the Grigori who had a more neutral outlook.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Chosen01 said:
			
		

> Hi Krust!




Hi Chosen01 mate! 



			
				Chosen01 said:
			
		

> Been busy and will continue to be for some time.




Well its always nice to hear from you.



			
				Chosen01 said:
			
		

> Anyway, take a look at Chapter 1 of Dicefreaks' first project, The Gates of Hell. Check it out!




Very interesting thanks. I have only had a chance to go through it quickly (hopefully I will get a more detailed read later tonight) but it looks very good, although they do seem to be placating the Planescaped view of Hell, but I suppose thats in keeping with 3rd Edition anyway.

I must say I was never satisfied with Dicefreaks treatment of beings like Asmodeus and Demogorgon (as Greater Powers as I recall). That (after *much* deliberation) doesn't quite gel for me.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey CRGreathouse mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I'd like to know how creation works in the IH.




Well theres a table showing how much WP you have to expend for each CR of the creature.

From there it works like magic item creation (with WP supplanting XP).

Initially you can only create outsiders...with a few other stipulations of course.  



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> One of the things I'd have to change from the D&Dg system to fit my world are the Creation SDAs. Basically, if a deity wants to create their own forms of life, they need 3-4 SDAs, including one that requires Divine Rank 16+ (Greater Deity).
> 
> Well I hate Divine Abilities that require a certain Divine Rank, so don't expect too many of them.
> 
> I have all your above queries catered for though.
> 
> You need a cosmic ability (Cosmic Creation) to create mortals. There are other abilities that let you reduce the creation times.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CRGreathouse said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is because, as you've said before, creators of races (Moradin, Corellon Laurethian, etc.) are pantheon heads, and should be powerful.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed. Though elves (for example) are a sub race (of humanoid). So Corellon wouldn't be more powerful than a Greater Power.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CRGreathouse said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In my campaign, while 'racial' deities exist, they are not pantheon heads and are decidedly not powerful.  In general, they're lesser deities.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting, though Lesser Deities could still have cosmic abilities.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CRGreathouse said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In fact, IMC, most are the direct followers (servants?) of their Sidereal creator...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Have you decided on the creator as yet?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CRGreathouse said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Could your system be tweaked to make this work? (Would it need to be?)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No changes necessary as far as I can see. I have already accounted for such events.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CRGreathouse said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are there any unexpected side-effects that could happen as a result?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Non-humanoid deities might be subordinate to human Pantheons.
> 
> They certainly need some kind of grouping if they are that weak.
Click to expand...


----------



## Iceflame55

*Glad to see you're back!*

Glad to see you're coming back around again. I know you wasn't gone long in Real Time, but it sure seemed awful quiet while you was dealing with your Grandpa's passing. Hope to hear soon IH is up for grabs . *I know I keep repeating comments like that, but I'm dying to see what you've come up with, as my brain's on overload trying to look at all the possiblities at the same instant!


----------



## historian

Howdy Krust!  

I hope all is well as can be with you and your family.

Incidentally, I saw some of your posts at classicmarvel.com and thought they were great.  I've been tinkering around with a homebrew conversion from that to d20 and have found that stats convert easily (using the guidelines that you proposed for strength as the cornerstones), powers are a touch trickier (I used your WMD guidelines and compared that with d20 modern nuke approximation), and that HD approximation is also a bit tricky (I guess I could use psyche to approximate a will save and work backwords -- and tie fighting plus strength into the BAB).

I'm looking forward to any conversion insights that you post on the site!  

Take Care.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Interesting, though Lesser Deities could still have cosmic abilities.




Is there any reason I couldn't just make it a divine ability (or perhaps a pair of divine abilities) to fit more easily?  Or is this not really too hard: how many divine abilities would a (typical?) lesser deity have, and how many does a cosmic ability cost?



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Have you decided on the creator as yet?




I don't have any stats, if that's what you mean; I've been waiting on this little book called the Immortals Hanbdbook for that.  I have a fair bit of mythology worked out about the creator, though.  It's one of my 9 original deities.



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Non-humanoid deities might be subordinate to human Pantheons.
> 
> They certainly need some kind of grouping if they are that weak.




There's no human pantheon at all -- humans are latecomers in my world, created in historic times.  (There are dwarven cities older than all humanity.)  The creator of humans (a weak lesser deity) is now dead.

As far as grouping, this creator made and taught 3 gods their 'craft': the god of the elves, the god of the dwarves, and the god of the halflings.  After elves and dwarves were made, the god of the orcs made a race of his own -- usurping the halflings' place.  Instead of being angry, the creator shunned the god of the halflings and adopted, in some sense, the god of the orcs.

As a result there is a grouping, but it's weak becasue the god of the elves and the god of the dwarves resent the god of the orcs.

Also -- how easy is it for a god to create another (weaker, obviously) god?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				Iceflame55 said:
			
		

> Glad to see you're coming back around again.




Yes, things are almost back to normal, although I will be busy all of Monday.



			
				Iceflame55 said:
			
		

> I know you wasn't gone long in Real Time, but it sure seemed awful quiet while you was dealing with your Grandpa's passing.




Aside from being busy, my internet connection has been on and off over the past few days.



			
				Iceflame55 said:
			
		

> Hope to hear soon IH is up for grabs . *I know I keep repeating comments like that, but I'm dying to see what you've come up with, as my brain's on overload trying to look at all the possiblities at the same instant!




I appreciate the interest. I'd like to get the website up sometime this weekend and then I can concentrate on the IH from then on in.


----------



## Upper_Krust

historian said:
			
		

> Howdy Krust!




Hi historian matey! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I hope all is well as can be with you and your family.




Not too bad.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Incidentally, I saw some of your posts at classicmarvel.com and thought they were great.




I'd forgotten about most of those (its been about 2 or 3 months since I have posted there.

Glad you liked them. 

I am quite proud of the strength chart. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I've been tinkering around with a homebrew conversion from that to d20 and have found that stats convert easily (using the guidelines that you proposed for strength as the cornerstones), powers are a touch trickier (I used your WMD guidelines and compared that with d20 modern nuke approximation), and that HD approximation is also a bit tricky (I guess I could use psyche to approximate a will save and work backwords -- and tie fighting plus strength into the BAB).
> 
> I'm looking forward to any conversion insights that you post on the site!
> 
> Take Care.




I'll add some of the MSH conversion stuff to the website eventually but the opening conversion tables on the website are for Divine Ranks between the IH, D&D Immortals and the Primal Order as well as how to convert 1st Ed. AD&D Immortals and (Intelligent) Unique Monsters to 3rd Ed.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi CRGreathouse mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Is there any reason I couldn't just make it a divine ability (or perhaps a pair of divine abilities) to fit more easily?




It already fits perfectly as a cosmic ability.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Or is this not really too hard: how many divine abilities would a (typical?) lesser deity have, and how many does a cosmic ability cost?




8 and 4.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I don't have any stats, if that's what you mean; I've been waiting on this little book called the Immortals Hanbdbook for that.








			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I have a fair bit of mythology worked out about the creator, though.  It's one of my 9 original deities.




Sweet.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> There's no human pantheon at all -- humans are latecomers in my world, created in historic times.  (There are dwarven cities older than all humanity.)  The creator of humans (a weak lesser deity) is now dead.




Are you considering 'any' intermediate or greater deities?



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> As far as grouping, this creator made and taught 3 gods their 'craft': the god of the elves, the god of the dwarves, and the god of the halflings.  After elves and dwarves were made, the god of the orcs made a race of his own -- usurping the halflings' place.  Instead of being angry, the creator shunned the god of the halflings and adopted, in some sense, the god of the orcs.
> 
> As a result there is a grouping, but it's weak becasue the god of the elves and the god of the dwarves resent the god of the orcs.




It seems you are creating a closed cosmology, as such they won't need any such grouping for protection.

I was considering ramifications for an open cosmology where there would be dozens of Pantheons.   



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Also -- how easy is it for a god to create another (weaker, obviously) god?




Its the same as creating any outsider. There are some stipulations but I don't want to expound upon them now.


----------



## Iceflame55

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hiya mate!
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, things are almost back to normal, although I will be busy all of Monday.
> 
> Aside from being busy, my internet connection has been on and off over the past few days.
> 
> I appreciate the interest. I'd like to get the website up sometime this weekend and then I can concentrate on the IH from then on in.




Cool 
 . I've been trying to pass the time as well as possible without bugging the hell out of you *Ask my mom how much of a pest I can make of myself without really trying, and you'd have an Idea the uphill battle I'm fighting!    *

I'm tweaking the Variant Paladins from UA from WoTC at the moment. I liked the concept, but I felt the need to change some things. I'm avoiding trying to even THINK about cosmology at this point, as I'd be bugging you unmercifully for updates, and I'm sure that would not be appreciatied. Though in concession to that side of my nature, I'll ask in a percentage how much you have finalized, as hopefully that shouldn't compromise any secrets you want to STAY secret


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Are you considering 'any' intermediate or greater deities?




Yes, quite a few.  There will probably be ~15 intermediate deities and ~7 greater deities, if I were to guess off the top of my head.

Actually I have an unusual power structure, but that's it's own issue.  (There are some gods potentially more powerful than others ranked higher.)



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> It seems you are creating a closed cosmology, as such they won't need any such grouping for protection.
> 
> I was considering ramifications for an open cosmology where there would be dozens of Pantheons.




I don't really know what makes a cosmology open or closed, so I won't comment there.  The primary form of organization for my gods is the Pantheon (which isn't a pantheon, by your standards, but a council), which is a grouping of 27 deities, inlcuding many (but not all) of the most powerful deities.  Beyond that, there are a series of shifting alliances, plus familial ties.



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Its the same as creating any outsider. There are some stipulations but I don't want to expound upon them now.




I guess what I meant was "Is it reasonable for a (weak?) sidereal to create 3 lesser deities, regardless of how the IH implements it?".  I assume the answer is yes, though, or you would have said something.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				Iceflame55 said:
			
		

> Cool
> . I've been trying to pass the time as well as possible without bugging the hell out of you *Ask my mom how much of a pest I can make of myself without really trying, and you'd have an Idea the uphill battle I'm fighting!



*

He he! 



			
				Iceflame55 said:
			
		

> I'm tweaking the Variant Paladins from UA from WoTC at the moment. I liked the concept, but I felt the need to change some things. I'm avoiding trying to even THINK about cosmology at this point, as I'd be bugging you unmercifully for updates, and I'm sure that would not be appreciatied. Though in concession to that side of my nature, I'll ask in a percentage how much you have finalized, as hopefully that shouldn't compromise any secrets you want to STAY secret




About 98% written, 75% typed up (of the first pdf that is).


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi CRGreathouse mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Yes, quite a few.  There will probably be ~15 intermediate deities and ~7 greater deities, if I were to guess off the top of my head.




Okay.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Actually I have an unusual power structure, but that's it's own issue.  (There are some gods potentially more powerful than others ranked higher.)




Well thats certainly possible. You could have a 70th-level Demigod and a 40th-level Lesser God for example, and the Demigod would be more powerful.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I don't really know what makes a cosmology open or closed, so I won't comment there.




A closed cosmology is where you define boundaries which could be a set number of deities - the Forgotten Realms for instance.

An open cosmology is where there are no boundaries and every deity from every source exists somewhere - so you could have the Greyhawk Gods battling with Cthulhu, encroaching upon the territory of Moorcocks Sword Gods etc.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> The primary form of organization for my gods is the Pantheon (which isn't a pantheon, by your standards, but a council), which is a grouping of 27 deities, inlcuding many (but not all) of the most powerful deities.  Beyond that, there are a series of shifting alliances, plus familial ties.




Okay. It'll be interesting to see when you have it all fleshed out.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I guess what I meant was "Is it reasonable for a (weak?) sidereal to create 3 lesser deities, regardless of how the IH implements it?".  I assume the answer is yes, though, or you would have said something.




Yes, thats feasible.


----------



## historian

Howdy Krust!  



> I am quite proud of the strength chart



. 

You should be, most designers don't go to the trouble of calculating galactic masses and the strength necessary to lift them.  

I also thought your criticism of DC's MEG system was right on.



> I'll add some of the MSH conversion stuff to the website eventually but the opening conversion tables on the website are for Divine Ranks between the IH, D&D Immortals and the Primal Order as well as how to convert 1st Ed. AD&D Immortals and (Intelligent) Unique Monsters to 3rd Ed.




That makes perfect sense (I have all of that stuff too, and would love to see the conversion tables).

I was wondering if you could comment on any of the following (only if you have time):

1.  I believe that a Hiroshima level atomic bomb would equate to approximately SH-Y (207 to be exact) under the Marvel rules.  In d20 Modern, I think it converts to around 128d6.  Would converting damage from Marvel to d20 follow a linear progression (ex., SH-Z damage would approx. 310d6 damage)?

2.  In estimating hit dice ("HD"), I decided on simply dividing the high stat by 2, i.e. a SH-Y or Skyfather level being would have 100 HD.  This seems reasonable at this point, however, it would ascribe between 500-1500 HD to Galactus (whos CR is only 357 I believe).

Thanks


----------



## Upper_Krust

historian said:
			
		

> Howdy Krust!




Hi historian matey! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> You should be, most designers don't go to the trouble of calculating galactic masses and the strength necessary to lift them.




It was fairly easy to be fair.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I also thought your criticism of DC's MEG system was right on.




I can't remember just what that criticism was but I am happy to concede that I was probably right. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> That makes perfect sense (I have all of that stuff too, and would love to see the conversion tables).




Fairly simple stuff, but useful nonetheless. Obviously for copyright reasons it can't go in the book.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I was wondering if you could comment on any of the following (only if you have time):
> 
> 1.  I believe that a Hiroshima level atomic bomb would equate to approximately SH-Y (207 to be exact) under the Marvel rules.




For the blast damage alone thats probably correct. Of course there could also be fire/heat and radiation damage. Not to mention asphyxiation from the blast vacuum.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> In d20 Modern, I think it converts to around 128d6.




Yes, d20 Modern is totally comic book rather than realistic.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Would converting damage from Marvel to d20 follow a linear progression (ex., SH-Z damage would approx. 310d6 damage)?




Nope. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> 2.  In estimating hit dice ("HD"), I decided on simply dividing the high stat by 2, i.e. a SH-Y or Skyfather level being would have 100 HD.  This seems reasonable at this point, however, it would ascribe between 500-1500 HD to Galactus (whos CR is only 357 I believe).
> 
> Thanks




Generally I total the FASERIP stats and divide by 20 to get the CR.


----------



## Iceflame55

> About 98% written, 75% typed up (of the first pdf that is).




That much? COOL! And what's this about MULTIPLE .pdfs ?!? uh, I do hate to say this, but I'm going to be lucky to buy one, unless they a set? *Hopeful Puppy Eyes look*


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Iceflame55 mate! 



			
				Iceflame55 said:
			
		

> That much? COOL!




Well the main problem (aside from getting some quality time to work on it recently) is that its not all in one block, but rather paragraphs needed here and there etc.



			
				Iceflame55 said:
			
		

> And what's this about MULTIPLE .pdfs ?!?




See the very first post of this thread for details - although I'll have the updated material on the website.



			
				Iceflame55 said:
			
		

> uh, I do hate to say this, but I'm going to be lucky to buy one, unless they a set? *Hopeful Puppy Eyes look*




I empathise with you because I am not in a position myself to buy pdfs (at least not at the moment).


----------



## Iceflame55

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hi Iceflame55 mate!
> 
> 
> 
> Well the main problem (aside from getting some quality time to work on it recently) is that its not all in one block, but rather paragraphs needed here and there etc.
> 
> See the very first post of this thread for details - although I'll have the updated material on the website.
> 
> I empathise with you because I am not in a position myself to buy pdfs (at least not at the moment).




 I can't believe I missed seeing that entry in the FAQ, but since I can't remember seeing it before, I guess I did 
 

 So, I'm half-certain I know the answer to Stupid Question number Two is, but I want to be certain; Are the four products in question going to be priced as a set, or as seperate products, or BOTH?


----------



## historian

Howdy Krust!  

Thanks for answering my questions and good luck with the website.



> Generally I total the FASERIP stats and divide by 20 to get the CR.




Thanks a ton!  That's of huge value.


----------



## The Great Bear King

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Howdy Great Bear King!
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting take on things, I presume you have one God ruling each plane?
> 
> However, maybe Thor is the King of the Slaad?
> 
> www.immortalthor.net/thor-366.jpg




Actualy I have Odin, Apollo, and Hermies dividing the Chaotic Good into their own territories.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				Iceflame55 said:
			
		

> I can't believe I missed seeing that entry in the FAQ, but since I can't remember seeing it before, I guess I did
> 
> 
> So, I'm half-certain I know the answer to Stupid Question number Two is, but I want to be certain; Are the four products in question going to be priced as a set, or as seperate products, or BOTH?




Both. Initially seperate.


----------



## Upper_Krust

historian said:
			
		

> Howdy Krust!




Hi historian mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Thanks for answering my questions and good luck with the website.




I got the domain space sorted earlier tonight - so its just a matter of sorting everything out tomorrow. Fingers crossed I can have the website ready by Wednesday at the latest.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Great Bear King matey! 



			
				The Great Bear King said:
			
		

> Actualy I have Odin, Apollo, and Hermies dividing the Chaotic Good into their own territories.




So is that 3 gods per alignment, or just whichever you see fit? Also which mythologies do you take the gods from?


----------



## CRGreathouse

What are the 'conversion rates' between the various gifts?  I seem to recall you posting the number of epic feats that one divine gift would cost, and I know 4 divine gifts = 1 cosmic gift.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey CRGreathouse! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> What are the 'conversion rates' between the various gifts?  I seem to recall you posting the number of epic feats that one divine gift would cost, and I know 4 divine gifts = 1 cosmic gift.




5 feats = 1 divine, after that its all x4.

To be honest its probably 4 epic feats = 1 divine, but I am not really distinguishing between normal feats and epic feats in this regard.

Also above cosmic it becomes difficult to accurately balance abilities, so the x4 is probably more a mechanic for its own sake.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> 5 feats = 1 divine, after that its all x4.
> 
> To be honest its probably 4 epic feats = 1 divine, but I am not really distinguishing between normal feats and epic feats in this regard.
> 
> Also above cosmic it becomes difficult to accurately balance abilities, so the x4 is probably more a mechanic for its own sake.




I'm curious.  Would you allow a player to trade an epic feat for several nonepic feats (assuming, of course, that only eoic feats could be traded for divine gifts)?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I'm curious.  Would you allow a player to trade an epic feat for several nonepic feats (assuming, of course, that only eoic feats could be traded for divine gifts)?




Well 4 epic feats are probably worth 5 regular feats, but to keep things simple I would suggest just keeping all feats equal.

Multiple Epic feat slots can be used to gain Divine Abilities, yes.

Also there is a Divine Ability called Multifaceted which allows you to take 5 feats (epic or otherwise).


----------



## Anabstercorian

Website Website Website Website!


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Anabstercorian mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> Website Website Website Website!




Just to let you know I have everything uploaded, however, upon changing the name server I was informed it can take a day or two before it becomes active. Don't bother checking periodically however, because I have it on remote access so even if it surfaced it won't be available to the public just yet. I want to make sure I know how to update things, so once the website appears (hopefully by tomorrow?) I will check everything, update it and then make it publically available.

Continued apologies for the delays.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Well, I talked you up on the chatroom yesterday.  I dropped a link to this thread for those interested.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi CRGreathouse mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Well, I talked you up on the chatroom yesterday.  I dropped a link to this thread for those interested.




Well I appreciate the love dude, right back at ya'.


----------



## Anabstercorian

I remember a while back I was writing a whole slew of weapon and armor enhancement ideas, like the chronoslip armor and the thing that let your secondary attacks strike as primary attacks...  Does anyone have any idea where those went?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Anabstercorian mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> I remember a while back I was writing a whole slew of weapon and armor enhancement ideas, like the chronoslip armor and the thing that let your secondary attacks strike as primary attacks...  Does anyone have any idea where those went?




Well if you do a search under Upper_Krust you will find the list of my threads. Presumably it was in the immortals handbook thread that directly preceded this one?

Good luck searching through it though. 

By the way I just checked for the website and its still not available yet even to me*.

*Its password protected until I make sure everythings okay.


----------



## Chosen01

Hi all! 

While waiting for UK to unleash Supernal power on us, check out Chapter 2 of The Gates of Hell. Enjoy!


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi all! 

Okay, just to let you know that the site is up for me - I still have it password protected so you won't be able to view it just yet. There does seem to be a problem with the design of the site itself* (which I don't understand), so I'll look at fixing that today.

*For some reason the site looks different online than it does when I preview it in browser, certain text is the wrong size and various links are the wrong colour/scripting. 

I'm going to be away from the computer this afternoon, but hopefully I can have all this ironed out later.

Nearly there.


----------



## CRGreathouse

When you've finished vetting the website*, will it have information about all of the sectons, or just Apotheosis?

What will it have?  General information about the project, I hope, but will it also have previews of the material?  Perhaps general information about immortal campaigns as well?

* You know, I'm quite handy with HTML and various scripting languages; if you really get stuck with the site, you're welcome to email me (crgreathouse/-at-/yahoo.com) with information about the problem, either just the parts that are troubling you or just a username/password igf you can't find it.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> When you've finished vetting the website*,




I got the website sorted out tonight. 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> will it have information about all of the sectons, or just Apotheosis?




It will have updated basic info on all sections.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> What will it have?  General information about the project, I hope, but will it also have previews of the material?  Perhaps general information about immortal campaigns as well?




I'll have some new previews up within about a week, including an art preview, I still need to get some stuff scanned.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> * You know, I'm quite handy with HTML and various scripting languages; if you really get stuck with the site, you're welcome to email me (crgreathouse/-at-/yahoo.com) with information about the problem, either just the parts that are troubling you or just a username/password igf you can't find it.




Wow - thanks so much. I actually got everything sorted tonight, I was having problems with the layout yesterday and I was panicking, thinking I would have to redo the whole site. But as ever, it was something simple once you know how.

At the moment I still have some realigning to do for a few of the pages and there are a few articles* that are still unfinished that I would like to but it all looks good for tomorrow. 

*Theres an article on why we should have stats for gods for instance, a review of some immortal movies, 1st Edition stats for my character Thrin and so forth.

The website pages are as follows:

shrine: likes
testimony: about me
gospel: news
offerings: products (and previews)
blessings: free stuff (like monsters, conversion tables, but later new powers, spells and gods etc.)
sermon: rant
confessional: message boards (not yet finished)
judgement: reviews
brethren: links
prayers: contact me
sacrilege: dislikes (although this will probably turn into a design diary)


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I got the website sorted out tonight.




Ah, excellent.  I can't wait to see it -- just another day or two, I hope?



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Wow - thanks so much. I actually got everything sorted tonight, I was having problems with the layout yesterday and I was panicking, thinking I would have to redo the whole site. But as ever, it was something simple once you know how.




I'm glad it wasn't too hard for you.



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> At the moment I still have some realigning to do for a few of the pages and there are a few articles* that are still unfinished that I would like to but it all looks good for tomorrow.




I can't wait.



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *Theres an article on why we should have stats for gods for instance, a review of some immortal movies, 1st Edition stats for my character Thrin and so forth.
> 
> The website pages are as follows:
> 
> shrine: likes
> testimony: about me
> gospel: news
> offerings: products (and previews)
> blessings: free stuff (like monsters, conversion tables, but later new powers, spells and gods etc.)
> sermon: rant
> confessional: message boards (not yet finished)
> judgement: reviews
> brethren: links
> prayers: contact me
> sacrilege: dislikes (although this will probably turn into a design diary)




Looks good!  I look forward to the 'stats for gods' article, as well as any previews you can give us.  Heck, at this point I'd take anything -- but it doesn't look like I'll have to.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi CR matey! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Ah, excellent.  I can't wait to see it -- just another day or two, I hope?




Yes, Tuesday (tomorrow) almost certainly.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I'm glad it wasn't too hard for you.




It was simply a matter of unfamiliarity. 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I can't wait.




I appreciate the support mate. 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Looks good!  I look forward to the 'stats for gods' article, as well as any previews you can give us.  Heck, at this point I'd take anything -- but it doesn't look like I'll have to.




Obviously theres not going to be much on the site initially, but I'll be adding new stuff as often as possible.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Obviously theres not going to be much on the site initially, but I'll be adding new stuff as often as possible.




I think much of the excitement about the site is that finishing it means that you can work exclusively on the IH, which we all want.

Good luck!


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I think much of the excitement about the site is that finishing it means that you can work exclusively on the IH, which we all want.
> 
> Good luck!




My modem died this morning (it had been sick for a few weeks now) and I had to spend a few hours getting that sorted. As of ten minutes ago I now have a bright new shiny modem. There are still a small handful of things that need fixed on the website but I should be okay for sometime later tonight.


----------



## poilbrun

Gimme, gimme, gimme your website before midnight...

/me hides in shame that someone might get the reference


----------



## Zoatebix

poilbrun said:
			
		

> Gimme, gimme, gimme your website before midnight...
> 
> /me hides in shame that someone might get the reference




Abba?  Pop music is nothing to be ashamed about.  Just look at all the silly stuff that came up in the " Rap and Hip-Hop at the game table?" thread:
http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=80017

That was actually a pretty good discussion.  In retrospect, Djeta Thernadier and a few others had arguments reminiscent of recent speeches by Bill Cosby near the end of the thread.  The whole thing is probably about as close as one can get to a politics discussion on EN World - though we remained entirely in the realm of artistic and cultural criticism.  Someone needs to start another fun controversial thread like that...

WOW - I'm waaay off topic!
...I've got a portion of my paycheck set aside specifically for anything you publish, U_K!  I'm looking forward to the website tonight!  My gaming group is pulling for you!


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi all!   

Okay, sorry for the continued delays. I thought I had everything working fine earlier (its perfect when I view it in browser), but when I came to upload the pages only the front page was correct, the links on all the other pages were purple and blue for some reason. Even when I copy and paste links from the front page they still appear the wrong colour - its somewhat baffling to a novice such as myself. Hopefully I can get this problem sorted out tonight. I'm sure its something simple.

Thanks for your continued patience.


----------



## Fieari

Just thought I'd let you know that checking this thread is part of my daily routine, at least twice per day.  Get up, shower, check thread, do other stuff, ... , later, check thread, brush teeth, go to sleep.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi all! 

The website is partially up. There are still two small issues to work out, why my images aren't loading for one and some alignment problems* with the headings.

*No not that kind of alignment. 

Not all of the pages are uploaded (or in some cases finished) so don't be alarmed if all the links don't work.

There should be enough to give you a taste until tomorrow though. I'll endeavour to get all the pages up by tomorrow night and sort out the minor problems.

I was going to hold off again until I had everything perfect but I figured you had waited enough and that half a site was better than none.

www.immortalshandbook.com

PS. Nearly forgot, I'll start a new thread here about it when I get the initial setup finished and all the links uploaded.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> There should be enough to give you a taste until tomorrow though. I'll endeavour to get all the pages up by tomorrow night and sort out the minor problems.




You're the greatest.  Thanks!

Edit: I meant to ask this before, but with the excitement over the site I forgot.

(squirrel, the spoiler tag is to keep you out -- although frankly, your Knowledge (religion) will probably result in my giving this information to you eventually.)

How do Avatars work -- and specifically, 



Spoiler



how powerful would a being need to be to have an avatar that was (or at least appeared to be) a Greater God?


----------



## BSF

Nifty!  Looks good so far.


----------



## S'mon

Is 1e AD&D Thrin on there yet U_K?  Don't worry, I'm not planning to use him/you in my game, I'd just like a copy for posterity.  

BTW as my current Ea campaign has entered 15th level I've encountered major problems with the feel & tone of it, I think this may be linked to 3e rules as well as to the attitudes of some of the players; thus I'm planning to restart with a low-level campaign hopefully using Lost City of Barakus, and just use the high-level PCs in occasional scenarios.  So it'll likely be awhile before I have Immortal PCs IMC again.


----------



## S'mon

Hi U_K - just been reading the reviews on DDG & ELH - very helpful, they fit with my preexisting thoughts & the reasons why I didn't buy either; your 3/10 and 5/10 grades seemed harsh but fair.    Looking forward to seeing more good stuff on the site!

BTW here's a question - how do you think Immortals-level play meshes with 3.5e's tactical-battlegrid miniatures-based approach to combat?  Should Immortal battles be freewheeling dramatic affairs, or do they work with minis?  Do you have thoughts on maintaining an (eg) Marvel Mighty Thor type tone?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> You're the greatest.  Thanks!
> 
> Edit: I meant to ask this before, but with the excitement over the site I forgot.
> 
> How do Avatars work -- and specifically,
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> how powerful would a being need to be to have an avatar that was (or at least appeared to be) a Greater God?




Avatars cannot be more powerful than Quasi-deities (to fulfill the Avatar role). However, a deity can create 'Aspects' of itself which can be any measure of power. However, if these Aspects are more powerful than Quasi-deities they cannot act freely on the mortal plane.

To create a Greater God Aspect you would need to be at least an Elder One.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi BardStephenFox matey! 



			
				BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> Nifty!  Looks good so far.




Thanks.

There are still a few teething troubles but I'll try and iron them out today.

I actually see some of the links are not yet perfect (white links on the blessings page is obviously wrong)


----------



## S'mon

I think your conversion of 1e AD&D unique creatures to 3e by dividing hp by 4 to get hit dice makes a good rule of thumb, although dividing by 4.5 would also work.  As you note, in 3e though power is far more dependent on hit dice than in 1e where Orcus & Demogorgon could be rivals, so it doesn't always work.  Maybe 1e Demogorgon had a CON bonus...  I increasingly think the BoVD's approach of putting the demon-lords etc in the low-epic range was the right approach for 3e, whereas of course 3e Deities & Demigods did a horrible job of statting the gods.  An alternative approach would be to take a more linear aproach to power-increase-by-hit-dice at Epic levels, which you have previously advocated, so Demogorgon could have 50 hit dice without being a Greater God or whatever.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey S'mon! 



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> Is 1e AD&D Thrin on there yet U_K?  Don't worry, I'm not planning to use him/you in my game, I'd just like a copy for posterity.




I have his stats up on the shrine, but I haven't uploaded that page just yet because I don't have all the accompanying text finished.



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> BTW as my current Ea campaign has entered 15th level I've encountered major problems with the feel & tone of it, I think this may be linked to 3e rules as well as to the attitudes of some of the players;




Can you be more specific? 



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> thus I'm planning to restart with a low-level campaign hopefully using Lost City of Barakus, and just use the high-level PCs in occasional scenarios.




Your PCs were starting to get under my feet anyway. I was starting to notice them. 



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> So it'll likely be a while before I have Immortal PCs IMC again.




It would have been blasphemous to have immortal PCs without the Immortals Handbook anyway. 



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> just been reading the reviews on DDG & ELH - very helpful, they fit with my preexisting thoughts & the reasons why I didn't buy either; your 3/10 and 5/10 grades seemed harsh but fair.




I think I stated my case pretty well for both.

I'd be happy to debate any of the issues with people. 



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> Looking forward to seeing more good stuff on the site!




I have quite a few things waiting in the wings.



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> BTW here's a question - how do you think Immortals-level play meshes with 3.5e's tactical-battlegrid miniatures-based approach to combat? Should Immortal battles be freewheeling dramatic affairs, or do they work with minis?




I think this partly depends on whether you're talking about immortal vs. immortal or immortal vs mortal(s). Another facet is going to be the power of the immortal and maybe depend on its abilities. There are quite a few abilities (in the IH) that muck about with Reach and Space (for example). 

Personally I think you have to have both styles, because some people like that amount of detail.

In immortal vs. immortal confrontations I don't see the battlegrid being of much consequence. Whereas with immortal vs. mortals you probably want it in there.



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> Do you have thoughts on maintaining an (eg) Marvel Mighty Thor type tone?




Yes...although I was saving those for the IH.

Essentially you want to trim as much fat as possible, I have abilities (some coming as standard) that help with this. You want fewer, more powerful items/artifacts (practical against disjunction). You want fewer, more powerful abilities (rather than an extra 20 feats you might take one cosmic ability for instance).


----------



## Iceflame55

*Me's Back, and I LIKE what I see!*

I've been bouncing in and out of here even if I wasn't posting U_K, but your review on Epic Handbook gave me an Idea on the Epic Attack Bonuses that I figured I'd post here (since it was your Review that got me to thinking of it). If this post starts enough discussion, I'll try and find the Epic forum and post a link here, to avoid messing your reports on how close immortals Handbook is to completion (which is also the only reason I think I haven't died of frustration I might add!)

I'm like you in I can see the way Epic Saves are done, especially when I examined the reasoning they added in a sidebar in DMG 3.5; but the rule on Attack Bonuses and the reasoning was weak I think. So, I decided to see the result of of simply capping the  *number of attacks* possible to four, but *kept the BAB going as before Epic* !

To compare I'll post how it looks with the D&D Epic Attack Bonus on the left, the way I tried it on the right; I'm using Fighter as the character:

Level: D&D Epic_______My Idea
21st: 21/16/11/6_____21/16/11/6
22nd: 21/16/11/6_____22/17/12/7
23rd: 22/17/12/7_____23/18/13/8
24th: 22/17/12/7_____24/19/14/9
25th: 23/18/13/8_____25/20/15/10
26th: 23/18/13/8_____26/21/16/11
27th: 24/19/14/9_____27/22/17/12
28th: 24/19/14/9_____28/23/18/13
29th: 25/20/15/10____29/24/19/14
30th: 25/20/15/10____30/25/20/15

I'm not a player of D&D at the moment, due to my physical location, and not knowing how to drive limits mobility; but I've read the books forwards, backwards, upside down and inside out. It seems to me that my Idea works better than the Core ideas on Epic, at least as far as the attacks go. It wouldn't have been a stretch for them to simply to have said there was a cap on the number of attacks, and keep the attack progression the same, but I guess they decided there needed to be a strange unwieldy rule to make Epic level less appealing   

I likely wouldn't have tinkered with this if I wasn't trying to avoid going insane waiting for IH, but there's my 2 cents at this time; comments, suggestions etc.?

Edit Note: I had a slight difficulty keeping the progressions seperate, and since this is the first time I've tried to show something resembling a table I didn't have any other Ideas on fixers


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya! 



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> I think your conversion of 1e AD&D unique creatures to 3e by dividing hp by 4 to get hit dice makes a good rule of thumb, although dividing by 4.5 would also work.




There were a number of reasons for dividing by 4. Firstly, its simpler. Secondly, it fits perfect with the Immortals Handbook. Thirdly, it balances very well with the 3rd Ed. Outsiders.

Talking to Gary, he said just before he was ousted from TSR that he was planning a book which would have revised all the Demon/Devil stats. In many cases bringing beings like Orcus and Demogorgon (Lesser Gods in their own right) into line with other Deities.



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> As you note, in 3e though power is far more dependent on hit dice than in 1e where Orcus & Demogorgon could be rivals, so it doesn't always work.




Exactly. Lolth should have 66 HD in 3rd Edition (under my auspices).

By the way (for those keeping note - that conversion table is why Orcus has 45 Hit Dice in the Tome of Horrors) 



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> Maybe 1e Demogorgon had a CON bonus...




It was a strength bonus he needed in 1st Ed.



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> I increasingly think the BoVD's approach of putting the demon-lords etc in the low-epic range was the right approach for 3e,




I didn't know you had that book?

The problem I have with the approach in the BoVD was the lack of structure. It simply doesn't take account of any hierarchy of the lower planes or the verisimilitude of demons/devils coexisting with deities.



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> whereas of course 3e Deities & Demigods did a horrible job of statting the gods.




Indeed, as I mentioned in my review the stats therein were pretty much pointless.



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> An alternative approach would be to take a more linear aproach to power-increase-by-hit-dice at Epic levels, which you have previously advocated, so Demogorgon could have 50 hit dice without being a Greater God or whatever.




It is so easy to do properly with the linear approach to Hit Dice. I treat Outsiders as spirits. Therefore they do not grow. But they do gain power (Highlander style) by destroying other Outsiders.

All power is relative remember, so its simple to equate this power with divinity.

Most of the abilities that go into making Demogorgon what he is would be absorbed by the Lesser Deity template.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Iceflame55 mate! 



			
				Iceflame55 said:
			
		

> I've been bouncing in and out of here even if I wasn't posting U_K, but your review on Epic Handbook gave me an Idea on the Epic Attack Bonuses that I figured I'd post here (since it was your Review that got me to thinking of it). If this post starts enough discussion, I'll try and find the Epic forum and post a link here, to avoid messing your reports on how close immortals Handbook is to completion (which is also the only reason I think I haven't died of frustration I might add!)
> 
> I'm like you in I can see the way Epic Saves are done, especially when I examined the reasoning they added in a sidebar in DMG 3.5; but the rule on Attack Bonuses and the reasoning was weak I think. So, I decided to see the result of of simply capping the  *number of attacks* possible to four, but *kept the BAB going as before Epic* !
> 
> To compare I'll post how it looks with the D&D Epic Attack Bonus on the left, the way I tried it on the right; I'm using Fighter as the character:
> 
> Level: D&D Epic_______My Idea
> 21st: 21/16/11/6_____21/16/11/6
> 22nd: 21/16/11/6_____22/17/12/7
> 23rd: 22/17/12/7_____23/18/13/8
> 24th: 22/17/12/7_____24/19/14/9
> 25th: 23/18/13/8_____25/20/15/10
> 26th: 23/18/13/8_____26/21/16/11
> 27th: 24/19/14/9_____27/22/17/12
> 28th: 24/19/14/9_____28/23/18/13
> 29th: 25/20/15/10____29/24/19/14
> 30th: 25/20/15/10____30/25/20/15
> 
> I'm not a player of D&D at the moment, due to my physical location, and not knowing how to drive limits mobility; but I've read the books forwards, backwards, upside down and inside out. It seems to me that my Idea works better than the Core ideas on Epic, at least as far as the attacks go. It wouldn't have been a stretch for them to simply to have said there was a cap on the number of attacks, and keep the attack progression the same, but I guess they decided there needed to be a strange unwieldy rule to make Epic level less appealing
> 
> I likely wouldn't have tinkered with this if I wasn't trying to avoid going insane waiting for IH, but there's my 2 cents at this time; comments, suggestions etc.?
> 
> Edit Note: I had a slight difficulty keeping the progressions seperate, and since this is the first time I've tried to show something resembling a table I didn't have any other Ideas on fixers




Thats pretty much how I would do it too.

Personally I don't like it that Dragons, Magical Beasts and Outsiders (etc.) have superior BAB/EAB to Fighters. It simply doesn't make any sense.

Either you have to restore the EAB progression (obviously still capping the number of attacks), or you have to apply the Epic ruling to all monsters with more than 20 Hit Dice.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> However, if these Aspects are more powerful than Quasi-deities they cannot act freely on the mortal plane.




What does that mean?


----------



## The Serge

So, when can I join?  I'm ready to add this to Dicefreaks' links as well.  Are you comfortable with that, UK?


----------



## historian

Krust, I love the site -- I've always been a fan of your writing and your rpg theory.  My preliminary assesment is 10/10.  

I really like the movie reviews, and that you've "short-statted" the characters.  I hope to see more of these.

Congratulations!  I know the excitement associated with this is awesome.  Looking forward to more.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi CRGreathouse mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> What does that mean?




It means that their are rules for divine intervention...of course rules inevitably get broken from time to time.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Serge mate! 

Sorry I haven't been around Dicefreaks much lately, just been busy. 



			
				The Serge said:
			
		

> So, when can I join?




Well I don't have the message boards ready as yet. Maybe in a week or two.



			
				The Serge said:
			
		

> I'm ready to add this to Dicefreaks' links as well.  Are you comfortable with that, UK?




Sure, fire away. I already have Dicefreaks on my links page (although I haven't uploaded my links page yet because I am still adding some interesting occult links), and I want to make some comments on every site, so that they are not simply 'another link'.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi historian mate !



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Krust, I love the site -- I've always been a fan of your writing and your rpg theory.  My preliminary assesment is 10/10.




Well I don't know about 10/10, its still early days, and I don't even have all the links up yet.   



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I really like the movie reviews, and that you've "short-statted" the characters.  I hope to see more of these.




Well I am going to do that with every review, I have a further six reviews (3 rpgs/3 movies) that are about half finished. I'll probably add one of each every week.

At a later date I may flesh out those 'short stats' but it wouldn't be prudent at the moment.

*By the way the pictures on the Legend of Zu review are now working!* I'll add the pictures for Zu: Warriors of the Magic Mountain, over the weekend. I don't have tv-out here so I am getting a loan of the dvd from a friend, I only have the vhs for Zu: Warriors myself.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Congratulations!  I know the excitement associated with this is awesome.  Looking forward to more.




I am pretty excited myself. Sort of wishing I'd had the website up sooner now.


----------



## S'mon

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hey S'mon!
> Can you be more specific?




Well, my general impression is that the often-arbitrary lethality of 3e combat at higher levels encourages interminable pre-combat planning (like Thrin on a very bad day) and the miniatures-based game discourages "Druaga appears with 20 Pit Fiends" - no normal person has 20 Pit Fiend minis, and even putting 20 Huge markers on the battleboard will cause huge problems as they take up all the space!


----------



## S'mon

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I didn't know you had that book?
> 
> The problem I have with the approach in the BoVD was the lack of structure. It simply doesn't take account of any hierarchy of the lower planes or the verisimilitude of demons/devils coexisting with deities.




No, I don't have BOVD, I just looked at your copy.  I don't intend to get it either, I'll likely convert my 1e books myself if I ever need them.  I agree re lack of structure, and of course Graz'zt got the shaft _and_ a silly pic!


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey S'mon! 



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> Well, my general impression is that the often-arbitrary lethality of 3e combat at higher levels encourages interminable pre-combat planning (like Thrin on a very bad day)




Re Thrin: After a while I was able to boil everything down to the point where I would just say "All magical defenses raised" and then wade in, saving time.

Although 3rd Edition is somewhat more buff-tastic. However, most deities have these buffs built in as standard, so its less likely to get in the way.



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> and the miniatures-based game discourages "Druaga appears with 20 Pit Fiends" - no normal person has 20 Pit Fiend minis, and even putting 20 Huge markers on the battleboard will cause huge problems as they take up all the space!




It seems to me as though a lot of this is down to whether or not you play with or without attacks of opportunity. What do you think?



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> No, I don't have BOVD, I just looked at your copy.




Oh thats right, forgot I had showed it to you.



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> I don't intend to get it either,




Its not a bad book, I'd probably give it a 5 or 6/10.



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> I'll likely convert my 1e books myself if I ever need them.




Well remember to use my conversion table as a basis. 

'Standard' Graz'zt (Lesser Deity) would have 46 Hit Dice. He would have integrated spellcasting of a 23rd-level Sorceror, although his innate spell-like abilities would at 46th-level.

'Your' Intermediate Deity - Demon Emperor version of Graz'zt would have 69 Hit Dice and integrated spellcasting of a 34th-level Sorceror, innate spell-like abilities would be at 69th-level.



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> I agree re lack of structure, and of course Graz'zt got the shaft _and_ a silly pic!




Indeed, Orcus has seemingly stole the limelight a lot recently. Graz'zt and Demogorgon were badly handled (and badly illustrated)


----------



## historian

Howdy Krust!  



> 'Your' Intermediate Deity - Demon Emperor version of Graz'zt would have 69 Hit Dice and integrated spellcasting of a 34th-level Sorceror, innate spell-like abilities would be at 69th-level.




Sounds nasty -- very, very strong.



> Indeed, Orcus has seemingly stole the limelight a lot recently. Graz'zt and Demogorgon were badly handled (and badly illustrated)




I had always been ubder the impression that Demogorgon was stronger than Orcus by about another 1/3rd.   

Wasn't Orcus whacked by an intermediate deity (Kiaransalee)?  I guess his incarnation as Tenebrous was nasty though.

BTW -- I loved seeing the Supernal and the Akashic Record as part of the divinity scale.  I'm putting the over/under for the ARs in the EL 325 range.


----------



## S'mon

>>Re Thrin: After a while I was able to boil everything down to the point where I would just say "All magical defenses raised" and then wade in, saving time.<<

Yes, I'm not sure why my Wizard player(s) need to spend 2+ hours of game time (out of the 5 hours we get every 2 weeks!) on selecting spells pre-battle... Being my game, things invariably go wrong anyway and the prep is likely as not to be wasted.

>>Although 3rd Edition is somewhat more buff-tastic. <<

Yup - 3.0 was nightmarish, with the 1d4+1 buffs.

>>It seems to me as though a lot of this is down to whether or not you play with or without attacks of opportunity. What do you think?<<

Well, I've always played 3e with the Attacks of Opportunity rules, they make large creatures far more powerful.  Yes, they encourage a tactical approach to play.  Not many people ignore the AoO rules, do they?  That would negate a lot of Feats and affect large-creature CRs significantly.

>>'Your' Intermediate Deity - Demon Emperor version of Graz'zt would have 69 Hit Dice and integrated spellcasting of a 34th-level Sorceror, innate spell-like abilities would be at 69th-level.<<

69 sounds right for Graz'zt.


----------



## S'mon

I can see a good case for an Immortals ability that made you immune to AoOs... Infinite Tumble?


----------



## Upper_Krust

historian said:
			
		

> Howdy Krust!




Hiya historian mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Sounds nasty -- very, very strong.




Well in S'mons campaign Graz'zt conquered the Abyss (and as such became a Greater Power*). Graz'zt defeated Orcus, I think he also defeated Zuggtmoy. One of Graz'zt's Champions defeated Lolth. Demogorgon fled the Abyss to live in Pandemonium.

I remember S'mon having lots of fun boosting the stats for all the Graz'zt faction Demons like Yeenoghu and Kostchtchie, who all became more powerful.

*Though technically now he would be an Intermediate Power.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I had always been ubder the impression that Demogorgon was stronger than Orcus by about another 1/3rd.




That was only with regards hit points, in terms of overall power they were always supposed to be fairly even.  



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Wasn't Orcus whacked by an intermediate deity (Kiaransalee)?




Drow Demi-deity as I recall. However, I take all that 2nd Edition stuff very lightly indeed.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I guess his incarnation as Tenebrous was nasty though.




He seems to be the same, but for the temporary use of the Last Word.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> BTW -- I loved seeing the Supernal and the Akashic Record as part of the divinity scale.




I was torn between making the more powerful eternals called the Supreme Lords of Life, but it seemed to clash with the Supernals somewhat.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I'm putting the over/under for the ARs in the EL 325 range.




You've lost me?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey S'mon! 



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> >>Re Thrin: After a while I was able to boil everything down to the point where I would just say "All magical defenses raised" and then wade in, saving time.<<
> 
> Yes, I'm not sure why my Wizard player(s) need to spend 2+ hours of game time (out of the 5 hours we get every 2 weeks!) on selecting spells pre-battle... Being my game, things invariably go wrong anyway and the prep is likely as not to be wasted.




Yes I remember your players making a complete mess of the Overking assassination attempt because of stalling and prep.

Personally I don't see how they need 2 hours either? I mean, don't get me wrong, I did love to have a plan of attack, but thats just ridiculous. 



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> >>Although 3rd Edition is somewhat more buff-tastic. <<
> 
> Yup - 3.0 was nightmarish, with the 1d4+1 buffs.




Especially with all the spellcasters and cohorts in your group.



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> >>It seems to me as though a lot of this is down to whether or not you play with or without attacks of opportunity. What do you think?<<
> 
> Well, I've always played 3e with the Attacks of Opportunity rules, they make large creatures far more powerful.  Yes, they encourage a tactical approach to play.  Not many people ignore the AoO rules, do they?  That would negate a lot of Feats and affect large-creature CRs significantly.




I think if you are happy enough to use them then I don't see them becoming any more of a problem at epic/immortal levels than they are at any other?



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> >>'Your' Intermediate Deity - Demon Emperor version of Graz'zt would have 69 Hit Dice and integrated spellcasting of a 34th-level Sorceror, innate spell-like abilities would be at 69th-level.<<
> 
> 69 sounds right for Graz'zt.




The old jokes are the best aren't they! 



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> I can see a good case for an Immortals ability that made you immune to AoOs... Infinite Tumble?




I'll think about it.


----------



## historian

Howdy Krust!



> Well in S'mons campaign Graz'zt conquered the Abyss (and as such became a Greater Power*). Graz'zt defeated Orcus, I think he also defeated Zuggtmoy. One of Graz'zt's Champions defeated Lolth. Demogorgon fled the Abyss to live in Pandemonium.
> 
> I remember S'mon having lots of fun boosting the stats for all the Graz'zt faction Demons like Yeenoghu and Kostchtchie, who all became more powerful.
> 
> *Though technically now he would be an Intermediate Power.




Sweet, evil vs. evil is a nice backdrop. 



> You've lost me?




My bad, I was referring to the Akashic Records as being most likely in the EL 325 range (at least I think that's what 8E24 CR yields).


----------



## CRGreathouse

I feel the need, oddly enough, to critique your rant on stats for gods.

First, let me summarize your argument (using your argument numbers):

1. (Gods don't need stats) This is an opinion, not a fact; mythology and fiction show non-all-powerful gods.
2.1 (Gods are all-powerful) Illogical, since multiple gods can't all have infinite power; they're irrelevant to RPGs; mythology (see above)
2.2 (Mortals can't hurt gods) Shades of gray, no black and white
3. (Gods are uber-powerful) Mythology (see above) vs fiction; mortal threat
4. (Offensive) Double standard; irrelevant to all but Hindus
5. (Gods = Monsters) DM choice

The problem I see is that your rant counters most arguments by assertion, much as you disapprove of assertion in #1.

The tone is very argumentitive -- 2.1 alone describes the argument as "illogical" and "ignorant", and the arguer as "foolish".  Elsewhere, the arguments are "ridiculous", "blatantly false"; the person becomes "clueless" and guilty of "scaremongering".

The high school debate terminiology ("appeal to authority" and "protagonist" are both used at least twice) adds to the oppressive feel of the document.


What I would like to see:
* A list of examples of mortals competing with, besting, or killing gods in various mythologies
* Your experiences with immortal gaming, and why the mortal threat is "the greatest aspect of immortal adventuring" (asserted twice, never explained)
* Your experiences with immortal gaming, and how gods have been more than 'just monsters'.
* Perhaps even reasons (campaign-building, etc.) that stats for gods could be useful even for groups not high enough in level to directly interact with the gods


----------



## Upper_Krust

historian said:
			
		

> Howdy Krust!




Hiya mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Sweet, evil vs. evil is a nice backdrop.




Yep. I think the Gord the Rogue books were the catalyst for all that. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> My bad, I was referring to the Akashic Records as being most likely in the EL 325 range (at least I think that's what 8E24 CR yields).




No, the Akashic Records are infinite and always were. The Supernals were some ridiculous CR but I think even that was redundant.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya CRGreathouse mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I feel the need, oddly enough, to critique your rant on stats for gods.




Fire away, I must be honest I wasn't totally happy with the article myself, I sort of rushed at it more than I usually do and I posted it up without being satisfied with it.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> First, let me summarize your argument (using your argument numbers):
> 
> 1. (Gods don't need stats) This is an opinion, not a fact; mythology and fiction show non-all-powerful gods.
> 2.1 (Gods are all-powerful) Illogical, since multiple gods can't all have infinite power; they're irrelevant to RPGs; mythology (see above)
> 2.2 (Mortals can't hurt gods) Shades of gray, no black and white
> 3. (Gods are uber-powerful) Mythology (see above) vs fiction; mortal threat
> 4. (Offensive) Double standard; irrelevant to all but Hindus
> 5. (Gods = Monsters) DM choice




Okay.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> The problem I see is that your rant counters most arguments by assertion, much as you disapprove of assertion in #1.




Unlike those arguments I don't take the choice away the DM/Player though.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> The tone is very argumentitive -- 2.1 alone describes the argument as "illogical" and "ignorant", and the arguer as "foolish".  Elsewhere, the arguments are "ridiculous", "blatantly false"; the person becomes "clueless" and guilty of "scaremongering".




I was partly 'stirring the pot' to facilitate discussion. Though I probably should have included those (above) points as reflective questions.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> The high school debate terminiology ("appeal to authority" and "protagonist" are both used at least twice) adds to the oppressive feel of the document.




I have read quite a few negative threads started just for the purpose of stating we shouldn't have stats for gods, so the oppression wasn't faked.

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=249635



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> What I would like to see:
> * A list of examples of mortals competing with, besting, or killing gods in various mythologies
> * Your experiences with immortal gaming, and why the mortal threat is "the greatest aspect of immortal adventuring" (asserted twice, never explained)
> * Your experiences with immortal gaming, and how gods have been more than 'just monsters'.
> * Perhaps even reasons (campaign-building, etc.) that stats for gods could be useful even for groups not high enough in level to directly interact with the gods




I was planning to include discourse on those points (as well as on Overgods), however time constraints swayed me. I will tweak the article at the weekend though, thanks for the feedback mate.


----------



## Iceflame55

*I couldn't resist *

I went to that thread about the Gods not needing stats, and couldn't resist adding my own two cents, respectively of course.   

While I'm waiting to discover if my post is accepted as valid (I'm fairly sure it will be, as I *far* more polite than the ranter in question), I've got a request for anyone interested in Highlander Immortals *ducks behind the podium in case of attack by flying rotten vegatable matter* hear me out plz!

 I've been fascinated by Highlander since it first came out on TV, but have never seen a set of rules I liked involving them. For example the 3.5 netbook about them adds in rules that must be used as is, or you cripple the character. There's a Unisystem conversion that is much more logical to my mind, but since Unisystem different rules set, going to take some work to use. Has anyone else got Ideas, suggestions, etc.?

The Unisystem Rules were written by Jason Vey, and I can't remember how on earth I found the book in question, so I can't post a link to it, sorry. 

Again, part of my reasons for looking at other things, is to stave off Insanity until U_K can finish the first .pdf! 

Thank You for even reading this!!!


----------



## S'mon

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Yes I remember your players making a complete mess of the Overking assassination attempt because of stalling and prep.




Yup - Leo the Wizard & co have gone on like that, and even gotten worse - there's a disjunct between Leo's player's play-style and my GM style that's become very marked at higher levels and made the PC group far less effective than I'd have expected, with my experience of Thrin (and even of Fergus's Chaotic PCs)!

AIR Graz'zt IMC did kill both Orcus & Zuggtmoy in single combat, he was lucky not to fail a save vs Orcus's poison tail! 

Re AoOs - I haven't seen them as a big problem, though the higher level you get the more Reach creatures there are.  A lot of PCs & Cohorts have been killed by large Grapplers, the +4 Grapple bonus is a killer on top of high BAB & STR - they've finally started casting Free Action, which has helped a lot.


----------



## S'mon

CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> What I would like to see:
> * A list of examples of mortals competing with, besting, or killing gods in various mythologies
> * Your experiences with immortal gaming, and why the mortal threat is "the greatest aspect of immortal adventuring" (asserted twice, never explained)
> * Your experiences with immortal gaming, and how gods have been more than 'just monsters'.
> * Perhaps even reasons (campaign-building, etc.) that stats for gods could be useful even for groups not high enough in level to directly interact with the gods




I'd like to see this too.    I enjoyed the Rant but it would probably benefit from specific literary & mythical examples of humans contending with and sometimes beating gods - Diomedes vs Ares, Elric vs Xiombarg, Corum vs Arioch, Jacob vs Jhvh, etc.  Examples from your experiences of D&D deity play would be nice too, especially for my ego.  
My feeling is that mortals with their fleeting lives are perhaps the biggest threat to gods because mortals are often willing to take chances that no god will, to "take a shot at the big one"; whereas immortal beings who have already survived for aeons tend to be highly risk-averse and conservative, often wrapped up in layers of treaties, alliances and non-aggression pacts until they're almost impotent.  I use Norse mythology as an inspiration, especially Odin with his runestaff on which all his divine treaties are signed, unbreakable - until Ragnarok, when all bonds are broken.


----------



## S'mon

Stats for gods in a sub-deity game - I think these can be useful to get a measure of relative divine power, both overall and in different areas of expertise, which is useful for judging deity interractions - eg if you have 2 "gods of magic" and one is 20 Wizard levels higher than the other then the deities will relate differently than if their stats indicate they're roughly equal.  This requires lots of variation in the stats, as 1e Legends & Lore did but 3e D&DG singularly failed to.  Personified stats enable deities to be used as NPCs rather than as abstract concepts - eg if you have stats for Blug the Evil One, you know whether Blug is scared of Abulin the Solar, or if he could crush Abulin like an ant, and the feel of their encounter would be very different from statted-solar encountering unstatted (thus omnipotent?) deity.    Deity stats can also be used as the basis for low-level avatars.  In 1e 10th level PCs could contend directly with gods; most 3e campaigns expect that to wait at least until 20th (or well beyond if DM is using 3e Deities & Demigods), but avatars can be used much earlier; the avatars in 1e Greyhawk Adventures started at around 8th level and there's no reason not to use eg 6th level avatars in a low-level 3e game.


----------



## S'mon

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Yep. I think the Gord the Rogue books were the catalyst for all that.




Yup - the highschool campaign I ran was always conceived of as having Graz'zt as the primary BBEG (not that we used such terms back then!), so when I got "Sea of Death" it fitted perfectly.


----------



## Fieari

A neat little short story/explanation of Akashic Records you might enjoy: I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Iceflame55 mate! 

By the way I had a run in with a phantom version of MSBlast earlier - hence the reason I haven't been online this evening.



			
				Iceflame55 said:
			
		

> I went to that thread about the Gods not needing stats, and couldn't resist adding my own two cents, respectively of course.
> 
> While I'm waiting to discover if my post is accepted as valid (I'm fairly sure it will be, as I *far* more polite than the ranter in question),




I tried posting to that thread half a dozen times but it never allowed me. In fact the rant on my website was directly fuelled by Crimson Helkite's jive in that thread.



			
				Iceflame55 said:
			
		

> I've got a request for anyone interested in Highlander Immortals *ducks behind the podium in case of attack by flying rotten vegatable matter* hear me out plz!




I like Highlander, and I know S'mon likes Highlander - didn't you create a set of Highlander RPG rules?



			
				Iceflame55 said:
			
		

> I've been fascinated by Highlander since it first came out on TV, but have never seen a set of rules I liked involving them. For example the 3.5 netbook about them adds in rules that must be used as is, or you cripple the character. There's a Unisystem conversion that is much more logical to my mind, but since Unisystem different rules set, going to take some work to use. Has anyone else got Ideas, suggestions, etc.?
> 
> The Unisystem Rules were written by Jason Vey, and I can't remember how on earth I found the book in question, so I can't post a link to it, sorry.
> 
> Again, part of my reasons for looking at other things, is to stave off Insanity until U_K can finish the first .pdf!
> 
> Thank You for even reading this!!!




S'mon can best answer this I think. I wonder do you still have those Highlander rules on your computer S'mon?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya S'mon! 



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> Yup - Leo the Wizard & co have gone on like that, and even gotten worse - there's a disjunct between Leo's player's play-style and my GM style that's become very marked at higher levels and made the PC group far less effective than I'd have expected, with my experience of Thrin (and even of Fergus's Chaotic PCs)!




I was always careful in my behind the scenes prep so that Thrin had no weaknesses, but I think I was pretty quick when it came to us actually 'gaming'. Fergus was indeed dynamite, how he survived as long as he did...   



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> AIR Graz'zt IMC did kill both Orcus & Zuggtmoy in single combat, he was lucky not to fail a save vs Orcus's poison tail!




Yes, but you'll never live down what you did to Lolth, 122hp indeed! 



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> Re AoOs - I haven't seen them as a big problem, though the higher level you get the more Reach creatures there are.  A lot of PCs & Cohorts have been killed by large Grapplers, the +4 Grapple bonus is a killer on top of high BAB & STR - they've finally started casting Free Action, which has helped a lot.




There are a lot of abilities that let you ignore grappling, tripping and disarming (etc.) - unless so attacked by more powerful deities.


----------



## CRGreathouse

S'mon said:
			
		

> Stats for gods in a sub-deity game - I think these can be useful to get a measure of relative divine power, both overall and in different areas of expertise, which is useful for judging deity interractions - eg if you have 2 "gods of magic" and one is 20 Wizard levels higher than the other then the deities will relate differently than if their stats indicate they're roughly equal.  This requires lots of variation in the stats, as 1e Legends & Lore did but 3e D&DG singularly failed to.  Personified stats enable deities to be used as NPCs rather than as abstract concepts - eg if you have stats for Blug the Evil One, you know whether Blug is scared of Abulin the Solar, or if he could crush Abulin like an ant, and the feel of their encounter would be very different from statted-solar encountering unstatted (thus omnipotent?) deity.    Deity stats can also be used as the basis for low-level avatars.  In 1e 10th level PCs could contend directly with gods; most 3e campaigns expect that to wait at least until 20th (or well beyond if DM is using 3e Deities & Demigods), but avatars can be used much earlier; the avatars in 1e Greyhawk Adventures started at around 8th level and there's no reason not to use eg 6th level avatars in a low-level 3e game.




I agree, but this argument isn't enough -- if all you want is a power ranking, WotC's divine rank system is good enough.  With the IH you get more (or so I must presume): what one god can do for his followers that others can't, what one is likely to notice, how many weak ones it would take to kill one strong one, etc.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hello again! 



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> I'd like to see this too.




Okay, okay. I'll get on it.



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> I enjoyed the Rant but it would probably benefit from specific literary & mythical examples of humans contending with and sometimes beating gods - Diomedes vs Ares, Elric vs Xiombarg, Corum vs Arioch, Jacob vs Jhvh, etc.




Gord vs. Iuz, Achilles vs. Aphrodite, Thrin vs. Druaga (first fight). 



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> Examples from your experiences of D&D deity play would be nice too, especially for my ego.




If only we had made a campaign journal at the time - we'd have a best seller, to heck with that Harry Potter! 

By the way I have just started reading His Dark Materials by Philip Pullman - has anyone read it? Is it any good?



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> My feeling is that mortals with their fleeting lives are perhaps the biggest threat to gods because mortals are often willing to take chances that no god will, to "take a shot at the big one"; whereas immortal beings who have already survived for aeons tend to be highly risk-averse and conservative, often wrapped up in layers of treaties, alliances and non-aggression pacts until they're almost impotent.  I use Norse mythology as an inspiration, especially Odin with his runestaff on which all his divine treaties are signed, unbreakable - until Ragnarok, when all bonds are broken.




In a more practical capacity by creating the two tiered system you pretty much make all the core rulebooks redundant. None of the monsters can challenge you, none of the spells affect you, none of the magic items can hurt you (artifacts aside). So you are immediately removing your largest source of information and in doing that are you still truly playing D&D?


----------



## Fieari

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> By the way I have just started reading His Dark Materials by Philip Pullman - has anyone read it? Is it any good?




I read up to a bit through the third book, and I enjoyed it up until then.  It annoyed me that the main characters were on what I percieved to be the wrong side at the end, and I just couldn't take reading anymore.  Your milage may vary, of course, and as I said, the first two were quite enjoyable indeed.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Fieari mate! 



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> A neat little short story/explanation of Akashic Records you might enjoy: I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library




Thanks for that, very interesting...especially the point about the akashic records librarians who you will be seeing in the Bestiary section of the IH...and they are very powerful. 

By the way there is also a tv show (maybe Twilight Zone or Outer Limits that deals with exactly the same premise).


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya CRGreathouse mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I agree, but this argument isn't enough -- if all you want is a power ranking, WotC's divine rank system is good enough.  With the IH you get more (or so I must presume): what one god can do for his followers that others can't, what one is likely to notice, how many weak ones it would take to kill one strong one, etc.




Of course, and much more, but such discourse (in detail) is best left to the IH itself, or was it just a list you were after?

Though that may even be an interesting article in itself... 

"Ask not what you can do for your god, but what your god can do for you".


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hello again mate! 



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> I read up to a bit through the third book, and I enjoyed it up until then.  It annoyed me that the main characters were on what I percieved to be the wrong side at the end, and I just couldn't take reading anymore.  Your milage may vary, of course, and as I said, the first two were quite enjoyable indeed.




Thanks, I'll give it a try. I have the combined (1000+ page) trilogy.

By the way S'mon did Andrew Whitmore ever get round to publishing "Demogorgon", the sequel to Fortess of Eternity? (Just checked Amazon and it looks like he didn't) I couldn't finish the excerpt because prolonged reading online was hurting my head. But what I read seemed good, and Fortress was a fantastically epic fantasy.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Of course, and much more, but such discourse (in detail) is best left to the IH itself, or was it just a list you were after?
> 
> Though that may even be an interesting article in itself...
> 
> "Ask not what you can do for your god, but what your god can do for you".




Actually, I wasn't looking for anything; I was just considering possibilities.  I'd prefer the IH itself gets the work.


----------



## S'mon

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I like Highlander, and I know S'mon likes Highlander - didn't you create a set of Highlander RPG rules?
> 
> S'mon can best answer this I think. I wonder do you still have those Highlander rules on your computer S'mon?




I used the Highlander AD&D online Netbook rules for a couple of modern-day Highlander games with my wife playing a German-Venezuelan Immortal in Miami, AIR.  I remember she beat an evil enemy Immortal by running him over repeatedly with her Volvo (before head-cutting)!  Mid-level D&D PCs in a world of low-level human NPCs make for good Immortals; the 3e XP system probably simulates Quickening fine, with the addition that the winning Immortal gains some skill points from the defeated foe, and maybe a Feat too.


----------



## S'mon

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> By the way S'mon did Andrew Whitmore ever get round to publishing "Demogorgon", the sequel to Fortess of Eternity? (Just checked Amazon and it looks like he didn't) I couldn't finish the excerpt because prolonged reading online was hurting my head. But what I read seemed good, and Fortress was a fantastically epic fantasy.




I don't think so, just the excerpt & synopsis which I sent you.  From the synopsis I didn't much like the "everything is destroyed" ending, which post-Moorcock/Elric is a bit of a cliche.  I loved Fortress of Eternity, unfortunately I lost my copy (along w several other books) after loaning them to a guy I then never saw again!      I do have Fireflaught, the rewritten & supposedly improved version of Fortress - from what I've read of it I preferred Fortress.


----------



## Iceflame55

S'mon said:
			
		

> I used the Highlander AD&D online Netbook rules for a couple of modern-day Highlander games with my wife playing a German-Venezuelan Immortal in Miami, AIR.  I remember she beat an evil enemy Immortal by running him over repeatedly with her Volvo (before head-cutting)!  Mid-level D&D PCs in a world of low-level human NPCs make for good Immortals; the 3e XP system probably simulates Quickening fine, with the addition that the winning Immortal gains some skill points from the defeated foe, and maybe a Feat too.




 That's one way to get "A head" *Sorry I couldn't resist saying that after seeing that!* 

 I really like 3.5 D&D, but there was soime neat things in that Unisystem version too, especially since NOW I can understand more of the basic concepts of said Unisystem (I grabbed the FRRE Witchcraft Corebook at DriveThruRPG; since it was free it was worth putting up with the DRM hoops). If you want to take a look at the Unisystem conversion, drop me an email, I'll be happy to share the netbook. Incidently I also like the way the magic system is set up in Unisystem, but that's a tinkering topic for another time


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Actually, I wasn't looking for anything; I was just considering possibilities.  I'd prefer the IH itself gets the work.




Noted.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey S'mon! 



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> I don't think so, just the excerpt & synopsis which I sent you.  From the synopsis I didn't much like the "everything is destroyed" ending, which post-Moorcock/Elric is a bit of a cliche.




Yes, but remember that wasn't the whole story presumably.



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> I loved Fortress of Eternity, unfortunately I lost my copy (along w several other books) after loaning them to a guy I then never saw again!




DOH! There are no copies on Ebay, maybe Amazon is the place to go, I'd like a copy myself.



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> I do have Fireflaught, the rewritten & supposedly improved version of Fortress - from what I've read of it I preferred Fortress.




Its not even mentioned at Amazon.


----------



## Zoatebix

> By the way I have just started reading His Dark Materials by Philip Pullman - has anyone read it? Is it any good?




I read it a few years back when I was still in high school - I found it very enjoyable.  The last volume is the weakest of the series, but by no means ruins the whole.  Some aspects of the Amber Spyglass requires a significantly larger stretch of the imagination on the part of the reader - and these same aspects don't repay the reader for the extra energy he or she invests.

But nevermind about that.  Read it anyways!
-George


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Zoatebix matey! 



			
				Zoatebix said:
			
		

> I read it a few years back when I was still in high school - I found it very enjoyable.  The last volume is the weakest of the series, but by no means ruins the whole.  Some aspects of the Amber Spyglass requires a significantly larger stretch of the imagination on the part of the reader - and these same aspects don't repay the reader for the extra energy he or she invests.
> 
> But nevermind about that.  Read it anyways!
> -George




Thanks, I will...though it'll probably take me a while to finish it, I'll be lucky to get half an hour a night on it.

Maybe I'll review it on the website afterwards.


----------



## S'mon

U_K - I think Fireflaught may only have been published in Australia?!  It's a shame, Fortress of Eternity is such a fantastic 'dark fantasy; Whitmore deserves some recognition for it.  I guess he was unlucky and may have been depressed, leading to not getting the sequel done.  I guess we can all sympathise w how hard it is to get things finished, eh?


----------



## S'mon

edit: To the rest of you - Fortress of Eternity/Fireflaught features loads of deity vs mortal and deity vs deity conflict, indeed one of the 'heroes', Annukin, is a deity!   As are more than one villain. His 'adventuring party' (of which he is not the leader) includes a noble/Ranger type, a cynical mercenary, a barbarian and a common prostitute - can't get much more varied power level than that!    It's a great read for anyone interested in gods-as-PCs style play.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey S'mon! 



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> U_K - I think Fireflaught may only have been published in Australia?!  It's a shame, Fortress of Eternity is such a fantastic 'dark fantasy; Whitmore deserves some recognition for it.




Indeed. I think I'll pimp the book in the bibliography of the Immortals Handbook. If I had a copy now I could conjure up some details for the website (akin to the movie reviews).



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> I guess he was unlucky and may have been depressed, leading to not getting the sequel done.




I would be curious what Andrew is up to now? Its obvious hes talented, I wonder is he still writing?



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> I guess we can all sympathise w how hard it is to get things finished, eh?




Tell me about it.   

By the way S'mon, I can't remember if you ever got Come Endless Darkness, I vaguely recall that you did pick up a copy but I don't remember hearing your thoughts on it?


----------



## S'mon

Come Endless Darkness - I have it but I haven't read most of it yet! 
Hm, I'm going to Romania to teach for a week on Sunday, maybe I'll take it with me.  
Andrew Whitmore has a website you can google, he sent me a free copy of Fireflaught from Australia!


----------



## S'mon

I just googled for Whitmore's homepage, it's disappeared *sigh*


----------



## CRGreathouse

> Release Dates* :
> 
> Immortals Handbook Apotheosis pdf: Autumn 2004
> 
> Immortals Handbook Grimoire pdf: Autumn 2004
> 
> Immortals Handbook Bestiary pdf: Autumn 2004
> 
> Immortals Handbook Chronicle pdf: Autumn 2004
> 
> Immortals Handbook print version: Winter 2004
> 
> Immortals Index - Celtic Mythology pdf: Winter 2004
> 
> *tentative until confirmed.




Are we still on for these dates (from your site)?  In particular, how close are you (pages to be typed, or somesuch) to the Apotheosis PDF, and do you have any further information on the print version?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi CRGreathouse mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Are we still on for these dates (from your site)?




Pretty much. Things have been annoying this week (I am experiencing a lot of computer problems*), but I can hopefully get a clear run from this week on.

*In fact my screen is mysteriously breaking up as I type this (a problem I have been having over the past week).   



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> In particular, how close are you (pages to be typed, or somesuch) to the Apotheosis PDF,




I think about 17-18 pages. It would be about a week to ten days without problems but that seems impossible for me lately.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> and do you have any further information on the print version?




Not at this point.

Meant to add I should have an update on the site tonight, barring puter troubles.


----------



## mythusmage

I've read through 15 pages (at 20 posts a page) of this thing and my browser needs a rest. I will comment on IH, but it might be a few days from now.

BTW, The *Living Tribunal* suicided. Trying to keep up with all the violations of Marvel Continuity is what did it.


----------



## mythusmage

Making progress but...



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Meant to add I should have an update on the site tonight, barring puter troubles.




Where the moose is the site?

Tell you what, send me your log-in stuff and the URL and _I'll_ add it to your sig and profile. No charge.


----------



## mythusmage

_*I FOUND IT!*_

Last link in my sig. (see first post from me on this page)


----------



## BSF

Upper_Krust,
MythusMage has a point.  The link to your site should be easy to find.  

Yeah, I sent out links to people the first day you had it up, but there might be new people coming into the thread that miss the post with the URL.


----------



## mythusmage

And now that I've found it I can say...

I have a couple of universes that could use the info. Any hope of previews?

Forgot This Bit: I have a class of deity in the Ki Universe known as *God of the Void*. At the upper end of the scale galactic clusters don't interest them. It would be nice to be able to stat a small one out.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi mythusmage! 



			
				mythusmage said:
			
		

> I've read through 15 pages (at 20 posts a page) of this thing and my browser needs a rest.




He he! 



			
				mythusmage said:
			
		

> I will comment on IH, but it might be a few days from now.




Sure, I am interested in any feedback. Thanks.



			
				mythusmage said:
			
		

> BTW, The *Living Tribunal* suicided. Trying to keep up with all the violations of Marvel Continuity is what did it.




I presume you mean during THE END saga?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hello again! 



			
				mythusmage said:
			
		

> Making progress but...
> 
> Where the moose is the site?




...belatedly its at www.immortalshandbook.com



			
				mythusmage said:
			
		

> Tell you what, send me your log-in stuff and the URL and _I'll_ add it to your sig and profile. No charge.




There is something funny going on here with the sigs at ENWorld. 

I tried to change the sig just there to no avail - also where has my old sig disappeared to?

Looking at your posts your sig only appears some of the time, I dunno its all a bit confusing.

I mean I have the 'Show your signature' box ticked, but its not showing it? What am I doing wrong?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi BardSterphenFox mate! 



			
				BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> Upper_Krust,
> MythusMage has a point.  The link to your site should be easy to find.




I'd have it on my sig if indeed I could have a sig.   

Also I haven't uploaded search engine details yet, because I was waiting to get the site finished, which has been hampered over the past few days by technical problems - my computer screen just dissolved into a David Hockney last night (not for the first time lately).

I hope I have the problem sorted *touch wood*, its very disconcerting for the screen to suddenly start being eaten away - its like some sort of visceral 'Hollywood' computer virus.



			
				bardstephenfox said:
			
		

> Yeah, I sent out links to people the first day you had it up, but there might be new people coming into the thread that miss the post with the URL.




Well if someone can help me with the sig that would be appreciated.

Also if my computer holds out for half an hour I'll update the website and the search engine.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi mythusmage! 



			
				mythusmage said:
			
		

> And now that I've found it I can say...
> 
> I have a couple of universes that could use the info. Any hope of previews?




I am curious what sort of previews people would be interested in seeing at this juncture?



			
				mythusmage said:
			
		

> Forgot This Bit: I have a class of deity in the Ki Universe known as *God of the Void*.




Is 'Void' representative of Nothingness or simply a generic term for outer space or something like that?



			
				mythusmage said:
			
		

> At the upper end of the scale galactic clusters don't interest them.




They sound in and around Old One-First One* sort of power.

http://www.immortalshandbook.com/freestuff1.htm

Out of curiousity where would the Gods of the Void sit amidst the Marvel Hierarchy...in your opinion? 



			
				mythusmage said:
			
		

> It would be nice to be able to stat a small one out.




Very easily done with the IH. There is a table for rolling HD/Levels based on the Divine Power, then just use the appropriate Divinity Template and choose the Divine/Cosmic etc. Abilities.


----------



## Knight Otu

Hi UK!
 I can tell you why you have problems with your sig - Spoony Bard changed the way they are displayed so that they only appear once on each page.

 Have you added the site to your profile, by the way? Might also help.


----------



## poilbrun

Knight Otu said:
			
		

> Hi UK!
> I can tell you why you have problems with your sig - Spoony Bard changed the way they are displayed so that they only appear once on each page.



I found ti strange too, especially for people who have pictures in their sigs... That makes a big difference on page length!


----------



## mythusmage

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hi mythusmage!




Hi yourself.



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Is 'Void' representative of Nothingness or simply a generic term for outer space or something like that?




In this case good old outer space. The story of the gods of the Ki universe is long, involved, and would require more of my brain than it's able to give right now.



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> They sound in and around Old One-First One* sort of power.
> 
> http://www.immortalshandbook.com/freestuff1.htm
> 
> Out of curiousity where would the Gods of the Void sit amidst the Marvel Hierarchy...in your opinion?




I haven't the foggiest. I can say that we're speaking of beings that, at middlin power, can affect galaxies with a cantrip.

BTW, as others have said, one's sig only appears once a page. But there's also the drop down menu that appears when you click on a user name. Click on mine and you'll see a line that says "Visit mythusmage's homepage". You can add your home page by editing your profile. I hope it helps.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Knight Otu said:
			
		

> Hi UK!




Hi Knight Otu mate! 



			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> I can tell you why you have problems with your sig - Spoony Bard changed the way they are displayed so that they only appear once on each page.




Why didn't he just limit the size of sigs?

I mean I can see why you would want to keep them fairly small (some people do tend to go overboard on sigs etc. I remember seeing one sig in particular that was like a small story - although that was over at WotC) but it seems a bit extreme to 



			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> Have you added the site to your profile, by the way? Might also help.




Right enough.

I also have the...NOOOOOO - computer problems just returned, my screen is disintigrating.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Okay, I restarted the computer, that seems a temporary solution at the moment, but this latest problem has me boggled its like the screen is made of wallpaper and someone is tearing strips off. Most disconcerting. I wonder is it something to do with the Graphics Card?



			
				mythusmage said:
			
		

> Hi yourself.




Hello! 



			
				mythusmage said:
			
		

> In this case good old outer space. The story of the gods of the Ki universe is long, involved, and would require more of my brain than it's able to give right now.




Well the Gods of the Void could be just another name for the Sidereals (Cosmic Gods/Star Gods/Overgods) then. Although being able to affect a supercluster 'easily' sounds like First One or possibly Time Lord territory.



			
				mythusmage said:
			
		

> I haven't the foggiest. I can say that we're speaking of beings that, at middlin power, can affect galaxies with a cantrip.




Well it might be the equivalent of a cantrip for them, but it would likely be an actual epic spell. 

I think in Marvel cosmology beings like Eternity and Death would be hard pressed to make light work of a supercluster.



			
				mythusmage said:
			
		

> BTW, as others have said, one's sig only appears once a page. But there's also the drop down menu that appears when you click on a user name. Click on mine and you'll see a line that says "Visit mythusmage's homepage". You can add your home page by editing your profile. I hope it helps.




Thanks, I'll do that too.


----------



## Knight Otu

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Why didn't he just limit the size of sigs?



 From what I understand, this current modification reduces the server load.



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I remember seeing one sig in particular that was like a small story - although that was over at WotC) but it seems a bit extreme to



 He, the WotC forums are full of people who have a sig that takes up the full screen.


----------



## mythusmage

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Well it might be the equivalent of a cantrip for them, but it would likely be an actual epic spell.




For his _Mythus_ game Col Pladoh set out three ranks of magic, each with 10 Grades (levels). The ranks being Preternatural, Supernatural, and Divine. What lay beyond Divine he did not say. So Grade 1 Divine magic is of greater potency that all but the most puissant Grade 10 Supernatural dweomer. The scale I use is: Preternatural magic affects individuals, Supernatural magic affects communities, Divine magic affects nations. Something that can affect entire galaxies would obviously be even more impressive.

Switching to your computer, you may have to take it in for work. Might be the graphics card, could be the CPU itself. Or, it may be the monitor. I hope it's easily and economically fixed.

On your sig, much appreciated. But I'll keep the link in mine as well.  Now go forth and add some content! (A forum maybe? This thread is getting a tad long after all.)

Hope things are going well.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> From what I understand, this current modification reduces the server load.




Well whatever helps them - I am constantly finding ENWorld slow in and around 12-6pm EST. Understandable I suppose though.



			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> He, the WotC forums are full of people who have a sig that takes up the full screen.




Yes they do sometimes go overboard.

Incidently I just added a quick update to the website, specifically the pictures for the Zu: Warriors of the Magic Mountain review.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi mythusmage! 



			
				mythusmage said:
			
		

> For his _Mythus_ game Col Pladoh set out three ranks of magic, each with 10 Grades (levels). The ranks being Preternatural, Supernatural, and Divine. What lay beyond Divine he did not say. So Grade 1 Divine magic is of greater potency that all but the most puissant Grade 10 Supernatural dweomer.




Very interesting. I suppose it would be very easy to parallel this system with D&D. Preternatural = 0-9th-level spells, Supernatural = 10th-19th-level spells, Divine = 20th-29th-level spells.



			
				mythusmage said:
			
		

> The scale I use is: Preternatural magic affects individuals, Supernatural magic affects communities, Divine magic affects nations.




I presume that is a House Rule by you?



			
				mythusmage said:
			
		

> Something that can affect entire galaxies would obviously be even more impressive.




I actually have the spell levels for that worked out somewhere (I have spell levels for everything from nukes to multiversal destruction). 



			
				mythusmage said:
			
		

> Switching to your computer, you may have to take it in for work. Might be the graphics card, could be the CPU itself. Or, it may be the monitor. I hope it's easily and economically fixed.




I balk at the idea of 'taking it in', I have 3 friends who work as IT troubleshooters, but the last time one was here (a few days ago) the problem never surfaced, in fact the machine has been on its best behaviour all evening. Go figure.



			
				mythusmage said:
			
		

> On your sig, much appreciated. But I'll keep the link in mine as well.




Hey thanks! 



			
				mythusmage said:
			
		

> Now go forth and add some content! (A forum maybe? This thread is getting a tad long after all.)




I will probably have to start a new thread before I get the Forums sorted. The problem again being the lack of credit card and thereby having to rely on friends to seal the deal for me - which I don't like doing.

The next content to go up will be some epic monsters, including (among others) Godzilla: King of Monsters...not the Hollywood travesty either, but the Toho terror. 



			
				mythusmage said:
			
		

> Hope things are going well.




Fair to middling I suppose. But thats good for me lately.  :\


----------



## mythusmage

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I presume that is a House Rule by you?




Just seemed to be the way things work out with _Mythus_ magic. Of course, there is some overlap.

'Course, I figure any god who can practice topiary on the Milky Way is not about to even notice mortal affairs.

"They're sentient? I didn't think they even qualified as 'life'. Don't expect me to believe they're sapient as well."


----------



## poilbrun

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I will probably have to start a new thread before I get the Forums sorted. The problem again being the lack of credit card and thereby having to rely on friends to seal the deal for me - which I don't like doing.



You could always go for free boards, like EZ Boards


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi mythusmage mate! 



			
				mythusmage said:
			
		

> Just seemed to be the way things work out with _Mythus_ magic. Of course, there is some overlap.




I would just be careful in assigning areas of effect so casually. I mean if you have two spells of the same level and one affects one target and another covers a vast area of effect then the latter is going to be much weaker to counter its area advantage.



			
				mythusmage said:
			
		

> 'Course, I figure any god who can practice topiary on the Milky Way is not about to even notice mortal affairs.
> 
> "They're sentient? I didn't think they even qualified as 'life'. Don't expect me to believe they're sapient as well."




He he!


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				poilbrun said:
			
		

> You could always go for free boards, like EZ Boards




Are you sure the EZboards are free...I don't think so. If they were I would be using them.


----------



## Kavon

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Are you sure the EZboards are free...I don't think so. If they were I would be using them.



Hmm... Indeed. I know they used to be free, but after checking the site real quick, I couldn't really find anything free other than the 3 month Gold Community trial. When there's a special "Gold" you'd assume they'd have a normal "something else".

Anyway, I hope everything works out in the end, and that your computer behaves! 

Edit: Actually, about the free message board thing, I think Invision has something like that..


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I will probably have to start a new thread before I get the Forums sorted. The problem again being the lack of credit card and thereby having to rely on friends to seal the deal for me - which I don't like doing.




I really hope you don't bother with forums until after you've finished at least Apotheosis.


----------



## poilbrun

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Are you sure the EZboards are free...I don't think so. If they were I would be using them.



You're right indeed, it's now a paying service. It must be quite some time since I had the use for one if I don't even know that!


----------



## poilbrun

CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I really hope you don't bother with forums until after you've finished at least Apotheosis.



I tend to agree with you on that!


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Kavon mate! 



			
				Kavon said:
			
		

> Hmm... Indeed. I know they used to be free, but after checking the site real quick, I couldn't really find anything free other than the 3 month Gold Community trial. When there's a special "Gold" you'd assume they'd have a normal "something else".




The cost is incidental, its being able to pay them regularly thats my problem.



			
				Kavon said:
			
		

> Anyway, I hope everything works out in the end, and that your computer behaves!




This latest problem has just been a mystery - its behaving itself today so far, so thats all I can ask.



			
				Kavon said:
			
		

> Edit: Actually, about the free message board thing, I think Invision has something like that..




I am not sure if my host supports Invision, I think that would mean an upgrade for me.

I was planning to go the EZboard route, though like I say payment is ever the online issue.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya CRGreathouse (and hello poilbrun)! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I really hope you don't bother with forums until after you've finished at least Apotheosis.




I may not be able to whether I would want to or not. I would like to open the forums at the launch of the Apotheosis pdf, but it may not be for a week or two after that. At the moment I am concentrating on the pdf anyway, so the forums can wait.


----------



## poilbrun

Just thought this might help in the search for a free forum: http://www.freebielist.com/messageboards.htm

I'll edit this post if I find anything else


----------



## mythusmage

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hi mythusmage mate!




Greetings.



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I would just be careful in assigning areas of effect so casually. I mean if you have two spells of the same level and one affects one target and another covers a vast area of effect then the latter is going to be much weaker to counter its area advantage.




In the _Mythus_ system it takes tons of energy (heka) to effect vast areas, so it's not entirely arbitrary. In addition, Grade is assigned more by difficulty than power. The harder an effect is to affect, the higher the Grade. In short, the more you try to do with a Casting (spell), the harder it is and the more energy it takes. It works out.

On Forums: If your host offers a site control panel of some kind you may have forum software already available. Check with your site host.


----------



## The Serge

U_K, I can't open the Sermon section where you have a discussion on divine stats...


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				poilbrun said:
			
		

> Just thought this might help in the search for a free forum: http://www.freebielist.com/messageboards.htm
> 
> I'll edit this post if I find anything else




Thanks mate - I'll take a look.


----------



## Upper_Krust

mythusmage said:
			
		

> Greetings.




Hiya - I think I spoke too soon earlier, my computer blanked out for six hours there.   



			
				mythusmage said:
			
		

> In the _Mythus_ system it takes tons of energy (heka) to effect vast areas, so it's not entirely arbitrary.




Well if you up the area you up the spell level.



			
				mythusmage said:
			
		

> In addition, Grade is assigned more by difficulty than power. The harder an effect is to affect, the higher the Grade. In short, the more you try to do with a Casting (spell), the harder it is and the more energy it takes. It works out.




I think one of the things the epic spell system didn't introduce was no new effects.



			
				mythusmage said:
			
		

> On Forums: If your host offers a site control panel of some kind you may have forum software already available. Check with your site host.




It seems I have...

Chatroom
PhpMyChat
Bulletin Board

...options. Not sure if any of them fit the bill but I will look into it.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Serge mate! 



			
				The Serge said:
			
		

> U_K, I can't open the Sermon section where you have a discussion on divine stats...




Yes I am rewriting that article after some feedback by CRGreathouse. I was never happy with the first draft anyway.

Provided I still have a working computer by the weekend I'll post up the rewritten article.


----------



## mythusmage

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> It seems I have... ...Bulletin Board




Mine provides three such options. I've tried phpBB but not the others. Easy to set up and organize, and no ads. (Death to pop-ups.   )


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				mythusmage said:
			
		

> Mine provides three such options. I've tried phpBB but not the others. Easy to set up and organize, and no ads. (Death to pop-ups.   )




So is that the kind of message boards you have on your website then?


----------



## poilbrun

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hiya mate!
> 
> 
> 
> So is that the kind of message boards you have on your website then?



 On his website, Mythusmage has a phpBB message board.

The three options that you talked about earlier are two chatrooms (chatroom and PhpMyChat) and a bulletin board. However, you have not given the "model" of the bulletin board, so it's rather difficult to know off-hand what functions you will have and how it will look like.

Hope it helps


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				poilbrun said:
			
		

> On his website, Mythusmage has a phpBB message board.
> 
> The three options that you talked about earlier are two chatrooms (chatroom and PhpMyChat) and a bulletin board. However, you have not given the "model" of the bulletin board, so it's rather difficult to know off-hand what functions you will have and how it will look like.
> 
> Hope it helps




I have emailed the hosts to see if they have any online examples of the bulletin board.

I am not sure if I wanted to be 'distracted' by a message board before I have the first pdf finished though.


----------



## Anabstercorian

Finish the first PDF and I will buy it from you!  Fail to finish the first PDF and I will break your puppies legs!  Your choice is clear!


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Yes I am rewriting that article after some feedback by CRGreathouse. I was never happy with the first draft anyway.




While I'm all in favor of having you putting your effort only toward the PDF, this is probably a good thing to do.  I guess it seemed that it was written to those who would complain most heavily about Immortal gaming (who wouldn't buy your books, ever) and not to those who are 'on the fence' reading such posts (who might be convinced to buy), nor to your core audience (who were going to buy anyway, but could use good arguments to refute bad arguments on such threads).

Good luck, UK!


----------



## Anabstercorian

Dude!  I made someone's signature!  Woo!

Seriously, I WILL break the legs of your puppy.  If you do not have a puppy, rest assured that one will be provided, and I will break it's legs 2d10 days after arrival.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Anabstercorian mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> Finish the first PDF and I will buy it from you!  Fail to finish the first PDF and I will break your puppies legs!  Your choice is clear!




Poor little Fenris.  



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> Dude! I made someone's signature! Woo!




To quote Han Solo: "Great kid, but don't get cocky."



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> Seriously, I WILL break the legs of your puppy.




Are you Baghtru? 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> If you do not have a puppy, rest assured that one will be provided, and I will break it's legs 2d10 days after arrival.!




I'd like an advanced Brachyurus then.


----------



## Kalanyr

Heh, I remember posting about this back in 2001, saying I'd buy it when it came out. 

/me joins Anabstercorian's group. Expect 2 puppies. 
And we both played in the 3rd IR we ARE crazy enough to do this .


----------



## Iceflame55

Kalanyr said:
			
		

> Heh, I remember posting about this back in 2001, saying I'd buy it when it came out.
> 
> /me joins Anabstercorian's group. Expect 2 puppies.
> And we both played in the 3rd IR we ARE crazy enough to do this .



   Make that three puppies. I haven't got much else to do at this time but wait; however I'm an impatient individual and long waits made longer would likely cause me to go on bloody rampages best left off the "Things to Do" List. *Evil Grin*


----------



## poilbrun

Hello UK!

If you need a place to hide your puppies to save them from this fate, feel free to call me, I love puppies!


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 

Apologies for the delay, my computer went belly up twice earlier (and as I type this my screen is melting again) - darn nuisance.   



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> While I'm all in favor of having you putting your effort only toward the PDF, this is probably a good thing to do.  I guess it seemed that it was written to those who would complain most heavily about Immortal gaming (who wouldn't buy your books, ever) and not to those who are 'on the fence' reading such posts (who might be convinced to buy), nor to your core audience (who were going to buy anyway, but could use good arguments to refute bad arguments on such threads).
> 
> Good luck, UK!




The sermon was, in this case, most definately a rant aimed at those against Immortal Gaming, which was probably the wrong perspective - in fact it initially started life as a reply to Crimson Hellkite's thread over on the Wizards forums (which I previously linked to) which I couldn't reply to for whatever reason.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Kalanyr mate! 



			
				Kalanyr said:
			
		

> Heh, I remember posting about this back in 2001, saying I'd buy it when it came out.
> 
> /me joins Anabstercorian's group. Expect 2 puppies.
> And we both played in the 3rd IR we ARE crazy enough to do this .




He he! 

I was finalising the details for the Golems (six of them) in the IH earlier and noted that the toughest of them deals 100d8+103 damage with a slam - I wonder how that would fare in the IR.


----------



## Knight Otu

Who's rolling all those dice? 
 What kind of golem is that? Planetary?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Knight Otu mate! 



			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> Who's rolling all those dice?




Well I would suggest you roll 10d8 and multiply by 10, then add the bonus.



			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> What kind of golem is that? Planetary?




No its only Large size. 

By the way, in the Golem advancement I have Golems of different sizes called different names. So Large Golems are just called Golems. Huge Golems are called Sentinels. Gargantuan Golems are called Gigants, and Collosal Golems are called Collosi - naturally.


----------



## Knight Otu

Collapsed Black Hole, then?  (yeah, I know I shouldn't be speculating )

 Interesting to see your naming conventions. I know there are none of that in the Core Rules, but what about smaller golems (Medium and below)?  Minis? 

 And congrats for passing the 4K posts. It's scary to think when I first registered on ENWorld, you had far more posts than I ever could achieve (I had about 100 before the move), and now I have slightly more than you.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> Collapsed Black Hole, then?  (yeah, I know I shouldn't be speculating )




Not quite. 



			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> Interesting to see your naming conventions. I know there are none of that in the Core Rules, but what about smaller golems (Medium and below)?  Minis?




I was thinking of that, not sure how I would fit it into advancement. 



			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> And congrats for passing the 4K posts. It's scary to think when I first registered on ENWorld, you had far more posts than I ever could achieve (I had about 100 before the move), and now I have slightly more than you.




I used to post far more than I do now...I think.


----------



## Anabstercorian

So...  What's LEFT of someone after they've taken 553 points of bludgeoning damage?

More importantly, what's left of a small dog?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Anabstercorian mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> So...  What's LEFT of someone after they've taken 553 points of bludgeoning damage?




Its not the bludgeoning damage they will be worried about trust me. 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> More importantly, what's left of a small dog?


----------



## Zelda Themelin

I don't want to read whole thread. So, is your game ever coming or what?

Tell some details too please, if you can Krusty.


----------



## Cheiromancer

Zelda Themelin said:
			
		

> I don't want to read whole thread. So, is your game ever coming or what?
> 
> Tell some details too please, if you can Krusty.




I'm estimating mid-to-late October.  

But I couldn't say which year.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Zelda mate! 



			
				Zelda Themelin said:
			
		

> I don't want to read whole thread. So, is your game ever coming or what?
> 
> Tell some details too please, if you can Krusty.




Sorry for the delays (though in the meantime check out the website if you haven't already).

www.immortalshandbook.com 

I just seem to have had a catalogue of problems lately.

By the way guys I found out what the problem with my computer was - the fan on my GeForce 4 graphics card had become damaged and as such was overheating causing the screen to go all 'matrixy'. So at the moment I have an old graphics card in which (as of the last 15 minutes seems to be working fine) can do until I get a replacement fan.

Now that I have that sorted definately expect some updates to the site over the next day or two.


----------



## S'mon

Hi all - anyone read my little article on Immortalshandbook.com?    Anything you'd like me to talk about in a future article?


----------



## CRGreathouse

S'mon said:
			
		

> Hi all - anyone read my little article on Immortalshandbook.com?    Anything you'd like me to talk about in a future article?




I liked your article.  There's a lot of need for DMing advice, and there's really nothing out there for Epic or Immortal campaigns.

The best part about you writing articles, though, is that it means that Craig isn't.


----------



## S'mon

Well, yeah, Craig's GMing advice is not something you'd want to read... *shudder*


----------



## CRGreathouse

S'mon said:
			
		

> Well, yeah, Craig's GMing advice is not something you'd want to read... *shudder*




Hey, I'm just trying to get him to finish the IH.


----------



## S'mon

CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Hey, I'm just trying to get him to finish the IH.




Yeah, I know, I was being mean.    
My 2 experiences of U_K GMing were, shall we say, not brilliant - some people are born players, some GMs, I guess.


----------



## Anabstercorian

Here's an issue:  The math.  JESUS, the MATH!  There's a lot of it and sometimes it gets hard to keep track of +8 to this and -10 to that and doubling the damage of every third swing.  Do you have any advice for keeping track of it all?

...Personally, I recommend that the Sacred and Profane bonuses be subsumed in to Luck and Deflection bonuses, not respectively, just to cut down on possible modifiers.


----------



## poilbrun

Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> Here's an issue:  The math.  JESUS, the MATH!  There's a lot of it and sometimes it gets hard to keep track of +8 to this and -10 to that and doubling the damage of every third swing.  Do you have any advice for keeping track of it all?
> 
> ...Personally, I recommend that the Sacred and Profane bonuses be subsumed in to Luck and Deflection bonuses, not respectively, just to cut down on possible modifiers.



 Well, I believe this is a problem of high-level play, not really of immortal gaming. Call me a freak, but I rather like the fact that there are so many ways to get a bonus to this or that... Knowing how to best prepare for a fight is half the fun of the fight, the second half being having one's preparation screwed because something you did not planned happened! (The third half is getting the loot... I said I loved the math, not that I was good at it! )

A sheat like this one helps me a lot: http://www.d20srd.org/extras/statusLog.htm


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey S'mon! 



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> Yeah, I know, I was being mean.
> My 2 experiences of U_K GMing were, shall we say, not brilliant - some people are born players, some GMs, I guess.




I can't remember ever really wanting to be a GM. Simple as that. So I never really invested any of myself into the idea on the two occasions it happened.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> Here's an issue:  The math.  JESUS, the MATH!  There's a lot of it and sometimes it gets hard to keep track of +8 to this and -10 to that and doubling the damage of every third swing.  Do you have any advice for keeping track of it all?




Well the first bit of advice is to get the players to take some of the GMing responsibility. If the players forget to add the obliterating critical damage then tough on them.



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> ...Personally, I recommend that the Sacred and Profane bonuses be subsumed in to Luck and Deflection bonuses, not respectively, just to cut down on possible modifiers.




Well once you have the modifiers worked out once they don't chane that often.


----------



## -Eä-

Hello all.

Simon, I liked your article very much. In fact, it inspired me to use some ideas in the campaign, and I think many of the ideas are applicable in non-immortal gaming as well.

I believe that I would like some more stories from your immortal game in your next article. Possibly difficulties and how you solved them.

As for the math - I would suggest preparing possible modifiers before the gaming session, or at least a set of them - generically applicable, and then only the resultant modifiers. In that way, you would only need to look up in a table, which probably can be used several times with some minor modifications.


----------



## S'mon

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I can't remember ever really wanting to be a GM. Simple as that. So I never really invested any of myself into the idea on the two occasions it happened.




Yup, that was my impression.  Conversely I remember the Gencon 2002 game with the assault on the fortified hobgoblin dungeon, where all the other (14!) players naturally looked to you for leadership, even though you didn't have the highest level PC, and you naturally took charge and got them working together, without which it could've been a total disaster.  It was nice to see that the Upper_Krust player skills worked as well at low level 3e as at deity level 1e.


----------



## S'mon

-Eä- said:
			
		

> Simon, I liked your article very much. In fact, it inspired me to use some ideas in the campaign, and I think many of the ideas are applicable in non-immortal gaming as well.
> 
> I believe that I would like some more stories from your immortal game in your next article. Possibly difficulties and how you solved them.




Thank Ea - great to be appreciated!   I'll be sure to put in more stories, and the kind of difficulties that can arise - though I have to say that running 1e deity-level never seemed very difficult, I do worry that rules-heavy 3e is less suitable for such power levels.


----------



## poilbrun

S'mon said:
			
		

> Thank Ea - great to be appreciated!   I'll be sure to put in more stories, and the kind of difficulties that can arise - though I have to say that running 1e deity-level never seemed very difficult, I do worry that rules-heavy 3e is less suitable for such power levels.



 Hi there!

An article I'd be eager to read would be how you handled Thrin's (and maybe other gods') ascension to godhood. Why and how did it happen?

Another useful article would be about the differences between mortal/mortal interactions, mortal/god interactions, and god/god interactions.


----------



## historian

Interesting discussion.

Off topic specifically but not generally I've got a few questions for Krust.

I've got a 10 kiloton WMD doing 128 d6 damage -- I was wondering if you would convert the following to d20:

1 megaton
1E12 tons TNT
1E24 tons TNT
1E48 tons TNT
1E72 tons TNT
1E96 tons TNT

Thanks in advance man.  I hope everything is going well.


----------



## S'mon

Hi Pollbrun - thanks for ideas for future articles.  

I've sent U_K 2 more things, an article on quick NPC generation w emphasis on high-powered games, and a review of a cosmology book handy for sf or galaxy-smashing-fantasy type games.


----------



## poilbrun

You're welcome. I've found that the exact moment of Ascension is the one I'm less sure about. I know how my players will get down the road of godhood, I have a pretty good idea of what their first challenges as gods will be, but I have troubles imagining the exact moment of Ascension. What exactly will trigger the change from human to god? What will their first seconds as gods be like? Their first day?

I can hardly wait to read the new articles! Quick NPC generation is a must, since that's what took me the most time when I DMed a high-level campaign. At low-level, it's easier to whip up the stats of a character than to create his story and make it unique. When you're at high-level, it's a lot easier to imagine a story for a character than making his stats unique. I'm not sure the review of the book will be of much use to me, but who knows, it might open my eyes on a whole new world of rpg opportunities!


----------



## Upper_Krust

historian said:
			
		

> Interesting discussion.




Off topic specifically but not generally I've got a few questions for Krust.

Fire away mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I've got a 10 kiloton WMD doing 128 d6 damage




Where is that from? Something I posted before? One problem can be the starting damage for a grenade which can make your nuke results seem way off later down the line.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> -- I was wondering if you would convert the following to d20:
> 
> 1 megaton
> 1E12 tons TNT
> 1E24 tons TNT




Nuclear Arsenal

2 Kilotons = 60d6 (average 210)
16 Kilotons = 90d6 (average 315)
128 Kilotons = 120d6 (average 420)
1 Megaton = 180d6 (average 630)
8 Megatons = 240d6 (average 840)
64 Megatons = 360d6 (average 1260)

16 Teratons (render Earth sized planet uninhabitable) = 2880d6 (average 10,080)
4 Exatons (shatter Earth sized planet) = 23,040d6 (average 80,640)



			
				historian said:
			
		

> 1E48 tons TNT
> 1E72 tons TNT
> 1E96 tons TNT




Basically d20 Modern doubles damage everytime you up the energy by x64! While d20 doubles (base) damage everytime you up the mass by x64, if we factor in things like strength bonuses and the (likely) reduced speed of monstrous attacks x8 actually works out much better - of course thats still d20 'reality' but it gives much better results than d20 Modern.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Thanks in advance man.




None necessary mate - you know that. But appreciated all the same.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I hope everything is going well.




Things are definately starting to look up.


----------



## Iceflame55

I know this is going to sound like the little kid on the Loonnngggg Car Trip from Hell, but I couldn't resist asking:

"How close are you to finishing the First .pdf?????"


P.S. I'm sorry to say, that as soon as I realized how MUCH it would sound like that little kid, that it made it IMPOSSIBLE not to post. >


----------



## poilbrun

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> 4 Exatons (shatter Earth sized planet) = 23,040d6 (average 80,640)



OK, this means that my level 46,079 rogue can shatter the earth by sneak-attacking it... Now I just need to know what would render the earth flat-footed!


----------



## Knight Otu

poilbrun said:
			
		

> OK, this means that my level 46,079 rogue can shatter the earth by sneak-attacking it... Now I just need to know what would render the earth flat-footed!



 Earth is an elemental. And as such, immune to sneak attacks.


----------



## The Serge

Just read Godzilla...  

Heh heh heh.

When are you going to have the forums sight up?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Serge mate! 

Hearing nothing but praise for the Gates of Hell by the way - hope you guys are proud. To my shame I haven't had time to read it all yet (only skimmed through the first chapter to be honest) - but I have been a bit busy lately so you'll have to forgive me mate.   



			
				The Serge said:
			
		

> Just read Godzilla...
> 
> Heh heh heh.




Oops! You weren't meant to see that yet - I haven't finished all the abilities for Godzilla and King Ghidorah yet (in fact they won't get finished until tomorrow since I'm off to bed in a moment).

I also have about ten monsters in various states of completion including some Ray Harryhausen favourites, some that S&SS turned down for the Creature Collection, some Final Fantasy monsters, some really cool epic monster variants and some original monsters that didn't make the final cut of the Immortals Handbook.



			
				The Serge said:
			
		

> When are you going to have the forums sight up?




Well I should have my credit card within 14 days as of last Friday - or so my bank manager tells me. So it will be about 2-3 weeks (not sure if thats 14 banking days?) before I am in a position to have the forums ready - I might just have the first pdf ready by then *fingers crossed*.

I'll probably be using EZBoard for the forums.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya Iceflame55 mate! 



			
				Iceflame55 said:
			
		

> I know this is going to sound like the little kid on the Loonnngggg Car Trip from Hell, but I couldn't resist asking:
> 
> "How close are you to finishing the First .pdf?????"
> 
> P.S. I'm sorry to say, that as soon as I realized how MUCH it would sound like that little kid, that it made it IMPOSSIBLE not to post. >






2-3 weeks if I am lucky.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi poilbrun mate! 



			
				poilbrun said:
			
		

> OK, this means that my level 46,079 rogue can shatter the earth by sneak-attacking it... Now I just need to know what would render the earth flat-footed!




A quick glance at the d20 'realistic'* stats and we get:

16 Teratons (render Earth sized planet uninhabitable) = 4,096,000d6 (average 14,336,000)

4 Exatons (shatter Earth sized planet) = 262,144,000d6 (average 917,504,000)

*this is d20 realism I mean - whereas d20 modern is comic book realism as far as I'm concerned - and even then pretty feeble.

By the way check out this thread about guns in d20 Modern:

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=99093


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi all! 

I just browsed the site and noticed some of the links were white instead of yellow (you could have told me Serge mate  ).

So I spent the last half hour fixing them - if some of them are not working let me know?


----------



## Knight Otu

I see you're going from Colossal to Immense to(?) Titanic to Enormous. I've put some thought into that as well, but I had the sizes go from Colossal to Enormous to Titanic to Vast, afterwards going Vast+, Vast++ (or Vast+1, Vast+2).

 Can Ghidora's breath weapon kill? From your writeup, it doesn't seem so? Or is that a case of the stats still being incomplete?


----------



## The Serge

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hi all!
> 
> I just browsed the site and noticed some of the links were white instead of yellow (you could have told me Serge mate  ).



 

Sorry...  I thought it was intentional...  Like those who are worthy and patient will search or something...


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Knight Otu mate! 



			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> I see you're going from Colossal to Immense to(?) Titanic to Enormous. I've put some thought into that as well, but I had the sizes go from Colossal to Enormous to Titanic to Vast, afterwards going Vast+, Vast++ (or Vast+1, Vast+2).




Colossal
Immense
Titanic
Enormous
Humongous
Prodigious
Brobdingnagian (which takes you up to 1 mile sized creatures)

I was trying to get the size titles to have more letters the larger they became.  Although I wanted Titanic for Godzilla so that was the starting point. I was considering Elephantine after Prodigious but I think I'll only have 'names' up to 1 mile in size and after that it will maybe be a number.



			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> Can Ghidora's breath weapon kill? From your writeup, it doesn't seem so? Or is that a case of the stats still being incomplete?




Its sort of because it isn't complete - I am considering that it should be a percentage of your full hit points - but that seems very powerful so I may reduce it to d6% in that instance.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Serge mate! 



			
				The Serge said:
			
		

> Sorry...  I thought it was intentional...  Like those who are worthy and patient will search or something...




I'm not that Machiavellian.   

I may use that in the future though.


----------



## CRGreathouse

About the monsters you posted -- the skills just list the total ranks, right?  They're not including the ability modifiers and other such bonuses?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi CRGreathouse mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> About the monsters you posted -- the skills just list the total ranks, right?  They're not including the ability modifiers and other such bonuses?




Yes. Sorry about not having the stats finished, but I thought it was better to post even 80% versions just to give people something new to read, rather than delay until whenever.


----------



## historian

Howdy Krust!

Thanks a ton for posting those figures.



> Nuclear Arsenal
> 
> 2 Kilotons = 60d6 (average 210)
> 16 Kilotons = 90d6 (average 315)
> 128 Kilotons = 120d6 (average 420)
> 1 Megaton = 180d6 (average 630)
> 8 Megatons = 240d6 (average 840)
> 64 Megatons = 360d6 (average 1260)
> 
> 16 Teratons (render Earth sized planet uninhabitable) = 2880d6 (average 10,080)
> 4 Exatons (shatter Earth sized planet) = 23,040d6 (average 80,640)






> Basically d20 Modern doubles damage everytime you up the energy by x64! While d20 doubles (base) damage everytime you up the mass by x64, if we factor in things like strength bonuses and the (likely) reduced speed of monstrous attacks x8 actually works out much better - of course thats still d20 'reality' but it gives much better results than d20 Modern.




The x8 multiple makes more intuitive sense to me.  

I also loved Godzilla -- I'm assuming that she is based on d20 'comic' rather than realistic?

If someone were running a campaign based on the realistic figures, would it skew the CRs such that interaction between ranks (Elder God v. Greater God) become difficult?


----------



## Fieari

I was just musing things over in my head, and I wonder... what would happen if there was a character, or race, or god, or pantheon, or whatever, that had limited legitimate access to the akashic records... more or less giving them ultamate authority over some small limited area.  Is that sort of thing possible under the immortal's handbook rules?  How fleshed out are the akashic rules anyway?  I remember you mentioning at some point that there wasn't a whole lot of detail in that area because the power level was so high... but if you limited it in this manner, I could imagine interesting things happening...

Edit: Also, your posting of the Epic Tarrasque instantly made me think of Blackdirge's God Eater (Advanced Paragon Tarrasque of Legend), in which he mentions you by name (in that you might find some use in it).  Did you ever see that little bugger?  What would be the weakest god on _your_ scale that would have any chance in hell of facing it and living?  Hmm... and I wonder how applying those templates to your NEW Tarrasque would come out...


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Yes. Sorry about not having the stats finished, but I thought it was better to post even 80% versions just to give people something new to read, rather than delay until whenever.




Leave the unfinished material on the website.  Finish the PDF first.


----------



## Anabstercorian

:: holds his chainsaw threateningly above lil' Fenris ::  "PDF!  PDF!"


----------



## Upper_Krust

historian said:
			
		

> Howdy Krust!




Hiya mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Thanks a ton for posting those figures.




Twas but a copy and paste.   



			
				historian said:
			
		

> The x8 multiple makes more intuitive sense to me.




Me to.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I also loved Godzilla -- I'm assuming that she is based on d20 'comic' rather than realistic?




Its sort of in between. The breath weapon is not comic book reality based.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> If someone were running a campaign based on the realistic figures, would it skew the CRs such that interaction between ranks (Elder God v. Greater God) become difficult?




No I don't think so. 

The realistic figures represent d20 anyway - just not d20 modern weapons.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Fieari mate! 



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> I was just musing things over in my head, and I wonder... what would happen if there was a character, or race, or god, or pantheon, or whatever, that had limited legitimate access to the akashic records... more or less giving them ultamate authority over some small limited area.  Is that sort of thing possible under the immortal's handbook rules?




Read the IH-Bestiary and find out. I have the exact thing you are looking for in there - very powerful. 



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> How fleshed out are the akashic rules anyway?




The 'Akashic Records' is the sentient being at the top of the food chain as it were.

As 'rules' they are primarily involved in the Spellcasting.



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> I remember you mentioning at some point that there wasn't a whole lot of detail in that area because the power level was so high... but if you limited it in this manner, I could imagine interesting things happening...




Indeed.



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> Edit: Also, your posting of the Epic Tarrasque instantly made me think of Blackdirge's God Eater (Advanced Paragon Tarrasque of Legend), in which he mentions you by name (in that you might find some use in it).  Did you ever see that little bugger?




I think I probably did read it way back when - and it could have subconsciously inspired the Epic Tarrasque.



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> What would be the weakest god on _your_ scale that would have any chance in hell of facing it and living?  Hmm... and I wonder how applying those templates to your NEW Tarrasque would come out...




Well assuming the CR is correct I think a powerful Lesser God or weak Intermediate Power should be able to face off against it.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi CRGretahouse & Anabstercorian! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Leave the unfinished material on the website.  Finish the PDF first.




Okay...and don't think I haven't noticed your sig. You'll only encourage him...oh wait...too late. 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> :: holds his chainsaw threateningly above lil' Fenris :: "PDF! PDF!"


----------



## S'mon

Hi guys - re my 2nd article on the IH site, re quick NPC creation, I was wondering if you find this kind of 'practical GMing advice' useful or not?  It occurred to me that there might not be many active regular GMs (as opposed to world/creature/NPC-builders) on this thread; or you may prefer the standard 3e heavy-crunch approach - I tend to try to minimise the crunch in 3e, especially at higher levels where I find it can really get in the way of the game.  AD&D was much simpler & easier to use in this regard.  So, in future would you like to see more crunch-related pieces like Doing it the Easy Way, or should I stick to purely fluffy stuff like the first article?  My next article will be fluffy, anyway.


----------



## poilbrun

S'mon said:
			
		

> Hi guys - re my 2nd article on the IH site, re quick NPC creation, I was wondering if you find this kind of 'practical GMing advice' useful or not?  It occurred to me that there might not be many active regular GMs (as opposed to world/creature/NPC-builders) on this thread; or you may prefer the standard 3e heavy-crunch approach - I tend to try to minimise the crunch in 3e, especially at higher levels where I find it can really get in the way of the game.  AD&D was much simpler & easier to use in this regard.  So, in future would you like to see more crunch-related pieces like Doing it the Easy Way, or should I stick to purely fluffy stuff like the first article?  My next article will be fluffy, anyway.



 I had already read this system when you posted it on the boards some time ago, so my opinion on this article might not be really objective, but I would prefer fluffier article on DMing immortal campaigns than crunchy bits... especially while we don't have the 3e rules on immortal gaming yet!


----------



## S'mon

Ok, thanks poil - I did add a chunk to the article about points-allocation for deity-level PCs, but if there are few regular GMs here I can see it might not be very useful for most.


----------



## Kalanyr

I GM regularly but since its mainly Play By Post stuff I usually have plenty of time for NPC creation. OTOH, I wouldn't mind other crunchy stuff.


----------



## poilbrun

S'mon said:
			
		

> Ok, thanks poil - I did add a chunk to the article about points-allocation for deity-level PCs, but if there are few regular GMs here I can see it might not be very useful for most.



 I'm a regular GM, but not really at high-level at the moment, and won't be for some time. My player reached level 8 quite fast (I believe in 7 10-hours sessions), but their progress is now slowing down, as they haven't gained a level last session, and I know it will start slowing down even more (since you don't get any XP for level 1 critters once you hit level 9). I hope I'll have the 4 IH pdf before I need them!


----------



## -Eä-

S'mon said:
			
		

> Hi guys - re my 2nd article on the IH site, re quick NPC creation, I was wondering if you find this kind of 'practical GMing advice' useful or not?  It occurred to me that there might not be many active regular GMs (as opposed to world/creature/NPC-builders) on this thread; or you may prefer the standard 3e heavy-crunch approach - I tend to try to minimise the crunch in 3e, especially at higher levels where I find it can really get in the way of the game.  AD&D was much simpler & easier to use in this regard.  So, in future would you like to see more crunch-related pieces like Doing it the Easy Way, or should I stick to purely fluffy stuff like the first article?  My next article will be fluffy, anyway.





I would prefer "fluffy" stuff. For me that kind of GM advice isn't particularily useful. After having som GM-experience, one develops tools that one uses anyhow. At least in my experience.


----------



## Zoatebix

I am a regular GM and I think a havng a good mix would be nice - but weight it more heavily toward fluff.  70-30 in favor of fluff over mechanical/logistical/whatever advice sounds reasonable.  Like -Eä- said: a lot of us have our own tools, but I know that I am happy to hear about other techniques and adjust my style if I find something new that works very well.
-George


----------



## S'mon

Thanks everyone - U_K is the master of high-theory Immortal Crunch anyway of course, I'm just good at the quick & dirty street-level stuff.    70-30 or 80-20 fluff to crunch sounds like what I'll aim for.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi all! 

Has anyone here read D20 Future yet? 

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/msrd

I downloaded the SRD this morning and was absolutely amazed by how low powered the weapons are:

The best personal weapons deal about 3d12 damage (Rail Gun), which is itself Progress Level 7 (nothing better in PL 8 or 9).

Beamsword (Lightsabre) deals 2d8

Starship Weapons go up to about 32d8 (Heavy Particle Beams)

(Victory Class) Star Destroyers (1 Km Dreadnoughts) have 1200d20 (24,000 hp). Hardness 40. Though for some reason it only weighs 540,000 Tons - go figure.

The best one of all though.

1 Megaton Nuclear Weapons...

...you won't believe this...

...16d8.

It seems even I overestimated the comic book physics of d20 Modern.


----------



## historian

Howdy Krust!



> Beamsword (Lightsabre) deals 2d8
> 
> Starship Weapons go up to about 32d8 (Heavy Particle Beams)
> 
> (Victory Class) Star Destroyers (1 Km Dreadnoughts) have 1200d20 (24,000 hp). Hardness 40. Though for some reason it only weighs 540,000 Tons - go figure.
> 
> The best one of all though.
> 
> 1 Megaton Nuclear Weapons...
> 
> ...you won't believe this...
> 
> ...16d8.
> 
> It seems even I overestimated the comic book physics of d20 Modern.




That's ridiculous -- the lack of symmetry is a real downer.  A great red wyrm does 24d10!!  I'm opting for something closer to "real world" physics once I have the IH.  It can get unwieldy at high levels (planet-shattering stuff) but the tradeoff is worth it in my mind.  I can't have the Van Helsings of the world (20th level rangers) surviving direct hits from nuclear weapons.


----------



## Upper_Krust

historian said:
			
		

> Howdy Krust!




Hiya historian mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> That's ridiculous -- the lack of symmetry is a real downer.




I still have trouble believing it myself.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> A great red wyrm does 24d10!!  I'm opting for something closer to "real world" physics once I have the IH.




The thing I can't understand is that not only does it gel with the pseudo-real world of d20 (which d20 Modern deviates wildly from), but it doesn't even correlate with how d20 Modern extrapolates weapons.

I mean (Hardness aside for a moment) you would be better off throwing a couple of hand grenades than using a nuke.

Extrapolating d20. 1 Megaton = 16,000d6 (54,000 damage)

Extrapolating d20 Modern. 1 Megaton = 180d6 (680 damage)

D20 Future. 1 Megaton = 16d8 (72 damage)



			
				historian said:
			
		

> It can get unwieldy at high levels (planet-shattering stuff) but the tradeoff is worth it in my mind.  I can't have the Van Helsings of the world (20th level rangers) surviving direct hits from nuclear weapons.




It would have been so easy to implement pseudo-realistic weapons. Such a pity WotC dropped the ball again. 

I remember when S'mon introduced Cyberpunk and Futuristic elements into our campaign, handguns (Blaster Rifle) were doing more than d20 Future nukes!

Using d20 Future (and to a lesser extent d20 Modern) in Epic/Immortal Campaigns is not going to provide the interesting juxtaposition it once was - hence my alternative rules in the IH - though even I didn't think there would be such a gulf.


----------



## Anabstercorian

Ooh.  Alternative rules for high tech weapons in the IH?  SWEET.

*Cataclysm Cannon*
_"...The true physics of the universe are too complex to explain in brief, but suffice to say that sometimes, it is possible to get them to try to divide by zero..."_
This weapon fires a self-perpetuating, self-eradicating anomaly in physical law roughly elliptic in shape.  Within it, the laws of physics break entirely, and matter collapses in to raw potential.  All things are eradicated by this fist sized bolt.
Large-sized contraption @ PL 8, decreases in size category by one for every additional PL, deals 16d8 Disintegration damage, ignores Hardness and Armor & Natural Armor bonuses to AC, range increment 10 squares (depending on firing type - vehicles, starships are more accurate over long distances than hand weapons, dissipates after ~10K miles), crit 19/x3


----------



## Zoatebix

Now I'm feeling bad that I actually re-downloaded the whole SRD.  Unclean!  

Is it really that bad?  I mean, I noticed that damages were low when I flipped through a copy of D20 Future at my FLGS, but 16d8 for one megaton is ridiculous.  72 damage is barely anything to reasonable sized structures.  What could that destroy, anyways?


----------



## Anabstercorian

The whole starship combat section of d20 Future strikes me as... iffy.  In fact, though I haven't play tested it, it looks pretty bad.


----------



## Anabstercorian

*New Progress Level rules*

*PL 0: Stone Age* Defined by the use of tools shaped solely by hand and force, not by fire.
*PL 1: Metal Age* Defined by the use of tools including metal, as well as the capacity to produce more metal.
*PL 2: Alchemical Age* Defined by haphazard attempts to master unseen phenomena such as magnetism or chemistry, marred by superstition.
*PL 3: Philosophical Age* Defined by an a rejection of previous superstitious dogma when that dogma conflicts with observable fact.
*PL 4: Mechanical Age* Defined by large-scale practical application of technological advancement.
*PL 5: Information Age* Defined by a mastery of information processing and transfer.
*PL 6: Atomic Age* Defined by a mastery of atomic and subatomic reactions.
*PL 7: Kinetic Age* Defined by a mastery of kinetic energy as a controllable force.
*PL 8: Energy Age* Defined by the conquest of eutropy over entropy and limitless energy supplies.
*PL 9: Temporal Age* Defined by the manipulation of temporal mechanics to the limits of paradox.
*PL 10: Planck Age* Defined by expansion of technological advancement to the limits of quantum physics.
*PL 11: Sub-Planck Age* Defined by breaching the limits quantum physics sets on technological advancement.
*PL 12: Singularity Age* Defined by throwing the laws of physics out the window and making your own at your whim.
*PL 13: Clarkian Age* Defined by the expansion of the creation of new physical laws to include metaphor and abstract concepts, such as guns that cause people to fall in love with the wielder or the eradication of violence against sentient life forms from the universe.
*PL 14: The Last Age* Defined by annihilating the universe and replacing it with a better one.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> Ooh.  Alternative rules for high tech weapons in the IH?  SWEET.




Indeed. However I now face a slightly larger task (in the face of the incompetence of d20 Modern & Future) than I initially thought.



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *Cataclysm Cannon*
> _"...The true physics of the universe are too complex to explain in brief, but suffice to say that sometimes, it is possible to get them to try to divide by zero..."_
> This weapon fires a self-perpetuating, self-eradicating anomaly in physical law roughly elliptic in shape.  Within it, the laws of physics break entirely, and matter collapses in to raw potential.  All things are eradicated by this fist sized bolt.
> Large-sized contraption @ PL 8, decreases in size category by one for every additional PL, deals 16d8 Disintegration damage, ignores Hardness and Armor & Natural Armor bonuses to AC, range increment 10 squares (depending on firing type - vehicles, starships are more accurate over long distances than hand weapons, dissipates after ~10K miles), crit 19/x3




I suppose at PL 9+ that would be workable as an infantry weapon.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Zoatebix mate! 



			
				Zoatebix said:
			
		

> Now I'm feeling bad that I actually re-downloaded the whole SRD.  Unclean!




He he!  



			
				Zoatebix said:
			
		

> Is it really that bad?




Its one step away from: 1 Megaton Nuke damage = Tickly Cough.



			
				Zoatebix said:
			
		

> I mean, I noticed that damages were low when I flipped through a copy of D20 Future at my FLGS, but 16d8 for one megaton is ridiculous.




Its comedic.



			
				Zoatebix said:
			
		

> 72 damage is barely anything to reasonable sized structures.  What could that destroy, anyways?




By d20 Modern/Future rules a point blank 1 Megaton Nuke wouldn't (on average) destroy an M1A2 Abrams Main Battle Tank.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hello again matey! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *PL 0: Stone Age* Defined by the use of tools shaped solely by hand and force, not by fire.
> *PL 1: Metal Age* Defined by the use of tools including metal, as well as the capacity to produce more metal.
> *PL 2: Alchemical Age* Defined by haphazard attempts to master unseen phenomena such as magnetism or chemistry, marred by superstition.
> *PL 3: Philosophical Age* Defined by an a rejection of previous superstitious dogma when that dogma conflicts with observable fact.
> *PL 4: Mechanical Age* Defined by large-scale practical application of technological advancement.
> *PL 5: Information Age* Defined by a mastery of information processing and transfer.
> *PL 6: Atomic Age* Defined by a mastery of atomic and subatomic reactions.
> *PL 7: Kinetic Age* Defined by a mastery of kinetic energy as a controllable force.
> *PL 8: Energy Age* Defined by the conquest of eutropy over entropy and limitless energy supplies.
> *PL 9: Temporal Age* Defined by the manipulation of temporal mechanics to the limits of paradox.
> *PL 10: Planck Age* Defined by expansion of technological advancement to the limits of quantum physics.
> *PL 11: Sub-Planck Age* Defined by breaching the limits quantum physics sets on technological advancement.
> *PL 12: Singularity Age* Defined by throwing the laws of physics out the window and making your own at your whim.
> *PL 13: Clarkian Age* Defined by the expansion of the creation of new physical laws to include metaphor and abstract concepts, such as guns that cause people to fall in love with the wielder or the eradication of violence against sentient life forms from the universe.
> *PL 14: The Last Age* Defined by annihilating the universe and replacing it with a better one.




Where did you get those from?

Also I meant to ask has anyone here got any of the d20 Stargate stuff yet? If so what are your thoughts on it? *Goes off looking for reviews*


----------



## Anabstercorian

PL 0 thru 8 are from d20 Future, sort of.  The rest I made up.


----------



## Alzrius

Hi U_K!

Glad to see that the website is up!

I was looking back over some of your posts, and notice that you talk a lot about how you extrapolate things (specifically, how much massive damage would do for, say, a nuke). It was interesting given how you had "real" d20 vs. "modern" d20 (and I won't mention the 72 hp-damaging _d20 Future_ nukes).

What I wanted to ask is, will the IH address how you got these figures (essentially, will it have "Behind the Curtain" sidebars)? 

In case you think that spending pages just explaining the math is boring, and that potential readers wouldn't want to see that, I'd like to direct your attention to the _Power Gamer's 3.5 Warrior Strategy Guide_, which is basically a book that does nothing but mathematically break down the PHB for purposes of making a character that can deal the most damage in combat. Personally, I loved the book, not only because it showed the underpinings of the game and how to best use them, but also because it backed up everything it said by showing the math (though only once, the rest of the time it just showed the results of the math). I think it'd be great if the IH had this also, all the moreso since the book will remake the wheel (in terms of CR, epic spells, etc) in various places.

As always, I'm eagerly anticipating the IH!


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> PL 0 thru 8 are from d20 Future, sort of.  The rest I made up.




How would you (or indeed anyone else) rate contemporary Sci-fi television/movies in terms of Progress Levels?


----------



## Ashardalon

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hiya mate!
> 
> How would you (or indeed anyone else) rate contemporary Sci-fi television/movies in terms of Progress Levels?



 I would assume that most of them have a mix of technology from PL 5 to PL infinity, whatever happens to be convenient. 

 By the way, I threw a little idea regarding the weapon damage problem into the SRD thread. Not sure if it works, though.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Alzrius said:
			
		

> Hi U_K!




Hey Alzrius mate! 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Glad to see that the website is up!




Yes, it was awkward getting things like that sorted without owning a credit card (which I should have by next week - making the forums a possibility)



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> I was looking back over some of your posts, and notice that you talk a lot about how you extrapolate things (specifically, how much massive damage would do for, say, a nuke). It was interesting given how you had "real" d20 vs. "modern" d20 (and I won't mention the 72 hp-damaging _d20 Future_ nukes).




Well there are probably now three different ways of rating the damage now:

d20 realism

d20 Modern realism

d20 Future surrealism



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> What I wanted to ask is, will the IH address how you got these figures (essentially, will it have "Behind the Curtain" sidebars)?




Its pretty straightforward stuff. I have probably explained it before in this thread (though don't worry I won't ask you to go hunting).

In d20, increasing the mass by x8 (one size category) multiplies the base damage by x1.5. However, if we also check out speeds when we increase size one category it only increases by x1.5 rather than x2. So its obvious that larger creatures have slower reflexes. Therefore we can deduce that if those creatures were also moving as fast as their smaller counterparts that the damage would be doubled every size category.

For modern weapons, its a simple matter of choosing a base figure, then extrapolating the kinetic energy using Einsteins famous equation.

For explosions we know that damage (and blast radius) double every time we increase the energy by x8.

eg. 125g grenade deals 4d6, we can easily deduce that 1kg explosion deals 8d6, 8Kg = 16d6 etc.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> In case you think that spending pages just explaining the math is boring,




I don't think its boring, but I am not sure I would devote more than half a page in the IH to explaining it).



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> and that potential readers wouldn't want to see that, I'd like to direct your attention to the _Power Gamer's 3.5 Warrior Strategy Guide_, which is basically a book that does nothing but mathematically break down the PHB for purposes of making a character that can deal the most damage in combat. Personally, I loved the book, not only because it showed the underpinings of the game and how to best use them, but also because it backed up everything it said by showing the math (though only once, the rest of the time it just showed the results of the math).




Sounds like my kind of book. 

I just checked out the preview (on feats) and its similar to my own research for the IH. I actually have a table (and an equation) that gives you the average AC; Attack Bonus; Hit Points and Damage (and how many hits are needed to overcome a like opponent) for every level for each type of main character class (Fighter, Rogue, Cleric, Wizard).

That way at a glance I can look at Thors stats in D&Dg and see pretty much exactly which level he equals in terms of combat.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> I think it'd be great if the IH had this also, all the moreso since the book will remake the wheel (in terms of CR, epic spells, etc) in various places.




Indeed. 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> As always, I'm eagerly anticipating the IH!




Thanks.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Extrapolating d20. 1 Megaton = 16,000d6 (54,000 damage)
> 
> Extrapolating d20 Modern. 1 Megaton = 180d6 (680 damage)
> 
> D20 Future. 1 Megaton = 16d8 (72 damage)




So a pound of TNT does 12d6 damage?  An ounce does 5d6?  (That is, based on your d20 extrapolation.)


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hello CRGreathouse mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> So a pound of TNT does 12d6 damage?  An ounce does 5d6?  (That is, based on your d20 extrapolation.)




Well as I mentioned previously it sort of depends where you start your grenade damage - its difficult to approximate a right or wrong answer for the initial damage.

I had a 125g explosive grenade deal 8d6 for the realistic d20. With 16d6 for the 1KG Light Rocket Proppelled Grenade and 32d6 for a Heavy R.P.G.

D20 Modern is of the idea that a typical grenade will deal 4d6 damage, 6d6 for a Light R.P.G. and 8d6 for a Heavy R.P.G...or something like that.

I think in d20 Future grenades actually have a healing effect.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> (Victory Class) Star Destroyers (1 Km Dreadnoughts) have 1200d20 (24,000 hp). Hardness 40. Though for some reason it only weighs 540,000 Tons - go figure.




Ooh, I like the weight.  Assuming it's roughly triangular (from above) and at least 2 mm thick, it will float in water.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Anabstercorian, I wonder if you'd be interested in my PL thread in General:
http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=100727


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Ooh, I like the weight.  Assuming it's roughly triangular (from above) and at least 2 mm thick, it will float in water.




He he! 

Victory Class Star Destroyers are about 8.5 Million Tons. Imperial Star Destroyers are about 35 Million Tons...I think. 

Also I was reading over on Mike Wong's website (stardestroyer.net) that to survive the G-Forces generated by their engines Star Destroyers would need to be made out of a material 70,000 times stronger than structural steel...which means roughly Hardness: 1 million.

Which would mean you would need to be dealing damage in the Gigaton Range to damage one (as per the realistic d20 rules I proffered). Which is consistent with Heavy Turbolasers. Light Turbolasers deal damage in the Multi-Megaton range.

4 GT = 256,000d6 
32 GT = 512,000d6


----------



## Anabstercorian

Ultra high tech does seem like it can stand against magical assault quite well.  I predict that Disintegrate-esque spells will become very popular.  What level spell to Disintegrate a Star Destroyer?


----------



## Angel Tarragon

Okay, it has taken me several days but I have finally caught up with this thread. I am a bit confused, though. I started off thinking this product was to be intially released as a supplement to any fantasy d20 campaign, but apparently there is going to be some (post?)modern stuff in it as well. Is this true Upper Krust? Also, what is the estimated MSRP on this thing, and how much will each PDF cost? I look forward to seeing the book in print.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Anabstercorian mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> Ultra high tech does seem like it can stand against magical assault quite well.




I actually worked out all the details for a d20 Modern extrapolated weapons and armour last night and surprisingly it actually looked pretty good. I worked out proprietry stats for Terminators, Predators, Aliens, Clone Troopers and Mechagodzilla. 

The Aliens were actually pretty weak - but then when you come to think about it they die fairly easy when they get shot.

I was wondering if Clone Trooper Armour should really be classed as Medium Armour for the time (PL:8) rather than Heavy Armour, I mean the troopers seem to be able to move fairly freely and I was contemplating that Heavy Armour (unless Powered Armour) should really restrict your movement.



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> I predict that Disintegrate-esque spells will become very popular.  What level spell to Disintegrate a Star Destroyer?




Well I think if you had 16,300+ wizards all casting disintigrate on it you could vapourise it.

Not sure on the spell level at this point but I will know by the time I finish the Grimoire pdf.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi there Frukathka! 



			
				Frukathka said:
			
		

> Okay, it has taken me several days but I have finally caught up with this thread.




I appreciate the interest. 



			
				Frukathka said:
			
		

> I am a bit confused, though. I started off thinking this product was to be intially released as a supplement to any fantasy d20 campaign, but apparently there is going to be some (post?)modern stuff in it as well. Is this true Upper Krust?




Well in the (4th) Chronicle pdf for the Immortals Handbook I will have a section on using immortals within different style campaigns: eg. Sci-Fi, Horror, Modern, Western etc.

So this is just one possibility I am suggesting. The reason I have reenvisioned the weaponry is because d20 Future (and to a lesser extent d20 Modern) do a very poor job of such things themselves. I more or less have some generic tables with examples - rather than outlining stats for every type of firearm.

I also have a table with realistic d20 weapon damage, which should only be used when you really want to scare your immortal PCs.



			
				Frukathka said:
			
		

> Also, what is the estimated MSRP on this thing, and how much will each PDF cost?




The MSRP will consistent with similar RPG books of that size 320+ pages - I'm guessing $35-40.

The pdfs will be of variable prices. The first and third will be about $8-9. The second and fourth will be between $5-6.



			
				Frukathka said:
			
		

> I look forward to seeing the book in print.




Thanks, me too.


----------



## Angel Tarragon

Thanks for the clarifications Upper Krust!


----------



## S'mon

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Also I was reading over on Mike Wong's website (stardestroyer.net) that to survive the G-Forces generated by their engines Star Destroyers would need to be made out of a material 70,000 times stronger than structural steel...which means roughly Hardness: 1 million.




I love how Wong insists on applying 'reality' to the Star Wars universe, and how he uses 'sfx reality' as superior to 'script reality' - eg if the SFX guys think it would look cool for Alderaan to explode really violently, Wong uses that visual as the basis for calculating the energy of the Death Star's weapons output*... and uses that to 'prove' that SW weapons are more powerful than Trek weapons.   Talk about misapplied genius.  

*He could use the impact of a large chunk of relativistic-velocity Alderaan to calculate the power of the Death Star's shields, too.


----------



## S'mon

BTW re explosives damage, you need to distinguish between ground-zero damage and some kind of generic figure for the exploding wavefront of the blast.  I find that for ground-zero, the best approach is linear - eg 1kg TNT does 1d6, 10 kilos does 10d6.  That's realistic*.  OTOH energy release from an explosion in a vacuum will decrease with the square of distance from ground zero, and in atmosphere it will decrease faster as the air absorbs some of the energy (releasing part of it again in an overpressure wave).

*D&D monsters very roughly conform to a body mass = hp approach, so x2 height = x8 mass & x8 hp; & eg 6' creature 5 hp, 12' creature 40 hp, 24' creature 320 hp.


----------



## Upper_Krust

My pleasure Frukathka mate! 

Hi S'mon! 



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> I love how Wong insists on applying 'reality' to the Star Wars universe, and how he uses 'sfx reality' as superior to 'script reality' - eg if the SFX guys think it would look cool for Alderaan to explode really violently, Wong uses that visual as the basis for calculating the energy of the Death Star's weapons output*... and uses that to 'prove' that SW weapons are more powerful than Trek weapons.   Talk about misapplied genius.




Well when you think about it, the visual evidence is gospel in this case, I think Wong is simply reflecting this approach.

Also the SFX guys for the recent Star Wars movies are very clued in about the technology side of things...take a look at the SWICS book if you get the chance.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0789434806/104-9580716-1807116?v=glance

It doesn't show you in that preview but I think they also give the weapon yields.



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> *He could use the impact of a large chunk of relativistic-velocity Alderaan to calculate the power of the Death Star's shields, too.




I wouldn't put it past him.



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> BTW re explosives damage, you need to distinguish between ground-zero damage and some kind of generic figure for the exploding wavefront of the blast. I find that for ground-zero, the best approach is linear - eg 1kg TNT does 1d6, 10 kilos does 10d6. That's realistic*. OTOH energy release from an explosion in a vacuum will decrease with the square of distance from ground zero, and in atmosphere it will decrease faster as the air absorbs some of the energy (releasing part of it again in an overpressure wave).




It shouldn't be difficult although your above damage ratings won't work.



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> *D&D monsters very roughly conform to a body mass = hp approach, so x2 height = x8 mass & x8 hp; & eg 6' creature 5 hp, 12' creature 40 hp, 24' creature 320 hp.




Not quite.

D&D monsters increase at roughly x2 HD per x8 Mass/+1 size category.

Unfortunately they completely miss giving Medium size creatures 2-3 HD.

A typical human should really have 3 HD, but WotC go to extreme lengths to (wrongly) shoehorn most medium sized creatures into 1 HD.

Fine - 1/8 HD
Diminutive - 1/4 HD
Tiny - 1/2HD
Small - 1HD
Medium - 2-3 HD
Large - 4-7 HD
Huge - 8-15 HD
Gargantuan - 16-31 HD
Colossal - 32-63 HD

I have found the best way to rate this is just simply HD = 1/2 height in feet.

However to get back to what we were discussing.

HD increases double every x8 mass, damage however only increases x1.5 for every x8 mass.

So its unfair to have explosives escalate in a linear fashion. I always found that x8 yield should be equal to x1.5 (low physical factor) and x2 (high physical factor).

So you might say, but the Barrett round only deals 3d12 damage (or whatever), but when you think about it thats the same as a Great Wyrm Dragon biting you (before strength bonuses).


----------



## slingbld

Hello der,
Longtime lurker that got away from gaming for a few months. 
Just wondering...
When is the release date or general timeline of when your project will go up for sale.

Thanks,
Slingbld~


----------



## Fieari

Yeah Krust, how 'bout that release date?


----------



## Upper_Krust

slingbld said:
			
		

> Hello der,
> Longtime lurker that got away from gaming for a few months.
> Just wondering...
> When is the release date or general timeline of when your project will go up for sale.
> 
> Thanks,
> Slingbld~




Hi Slingbld! 

I'm hoping to have it sorted within the next week or two.

Be sure to check out the website if you haven't already:

immortals handbook.com 

Sorry I haven't updated in a while guys (been working hard on the IH) but expect lots of stuff this weekend to make up for it. 

By the way I was contemplating releasing the Bestiary pdf first (any thoughts on that idea from people?) to give people something to chew on. I suppose the general consensus would just be get everything out as quickly as possible. I would have really liked a week or two to edit/playtest the Apotheosis pdf to death. Whereas obviously the Bestiary section won't have that necessity.


----------



## Anabstercorian

Release SOMETHING!  ANYTHING!


----------



## S'mon

>>Well when you think about it, the visual evidence is gospel in this case, I think Wong is simply reflecting this approach.<<

There's no reason AFAICS to treat the visual evidence as gospel - after all, the script _predates_ the SFX, the SFX is merely an interpretation of the script.  Wong treats SFX as if it were 'reality' and thus subject to empirical evidence, which I find rather silly in a universe where sound travels through space and starfighters behave like WW2 fighter planes.  So he ignores eg statements that the ships are powered by 'fusion' reactors - as nuclear fusion isn't powerful enough for what he wants.  I'm sorry but I find it all very silly, I don't think much of the SW tech manual people inventing 'hypermatter' (better than antimatter!) either - it's all fantasy so why bother?

>>D&D monsters increase at roughly x2 HD per x8 Mass/+1 size category.

Unfortunately they completely miss giving Medium size creatures 2-3 HD.

A typical human should really have 3 HD, but WotC go to extreme lengths to (wrongly) shoehorn most medium sized creatures into 1 HD.

Fine - 1/8 HD
Diminutive - 1/4 HD
Tiny - 1/2HD
Small - 1HD
Medium - 2-3 HD
Large - 4-7 HD
Huge - 8-15 HD
Gargantuan - 16-31 HD
Colossal - 32-63 HD<<

This works for HD but not Hit Points - because they increase CON as size increases!  Go have a look at hit point spreads rather than HD and you'll see what I mean.    In fact of course their 12' giants have many more than x8 hp of their 6' humanoids, as you say.

>>So you might say, but the Barrett round only deals 3d12 damage (or whatever), but when you think about it thats the same as a Great Wyrm Dragon biting you (before strength bonuses).<<

Consider the Great Wyrm Power Attacking w STR bonuses, that's a better comparison.


----------



## S'mon

Anyway, the key thing is that an 8lb bomb blast at ground zero to a 12' 1600lb humanoid should work exactly the same as a 1lb bomb blast to a 6' 200lb humanoid, or a 64lb bomb blast to a 24' 12800lb humanoid.  Likewise with bombs, shells, and melee weapons - but you need to be careful use the net, not gross, stats - final damage/round given all factors, including STR bonuses, power attack, **differentials in to-hit chances** due to the way BAB increases but AC doesn't (reliably) with size, iterative attacks from high-hd, etc.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Anabstercorian mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> Release SOMETHING!  ANYTHING!




I thought that would be the answer - I appreciate the fervour dude!


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey S'mon! 



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> >>Well when you think about it, the visual evidence is gospel in this case, I think Wong is simply reflecting this approach.<<
> 
> There's no reason AFAICS to treat the visual evidence as gospel - after all, the script _predates_ the SFX, the SFX is merely an interpretation of the script.  Wong treats SFX as if it were 'reality' and thus subject to empirical evidence,




...and I have to say on this point I agree with him. I have found myself having the exact same argument on some comics boards a few months back (specifically about whether 'comic book' Odin could destroy a planet or not).

In my opinion the visual evidence trumps the verbal or written evidence - even the script. If the script contradicts the visual evidence then thats certainly something to be addressed. However where the script is ambiguous (in determining the power of a Star Destroyers weapons for example) then the visual evidence is indeed gospel.



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> which I find rather silly in a universe where sound travels through space and starfighters behave like WW2 fighter planes.  So he ignores eg statements that the ships are powered by 'fusion' reactors - as nuclear fusion isn't powerful enough for what he wants.




Well fusion does not automatically state nuclear fusion, also the Star Wars galaxy is technologically multi-millenia* advanced from our own - so the idea that they would still be using nuclear fusion is a bit of a stretch.

*IIRC they colonised their galaxy 25,000 years prior to the time of the movies.



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> I'm sorry but I find it all very silly,




Thats certainly your prerogative.



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> I don't think much of the SW tech manual people inventing 'hypermatter' (better than antimatter!) either




Right up there with Quantum Torpedoes (in that they are more efficient than Anti-matter).



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> - it's all fantasy so why bother?




Why don't you ask Wong on his website? 

Personally I think its both interesting and fascinating.



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> >>D&D monsters increase at roughly x2 HD per x8 Mass/+1 size category.
> 
> Unfortunately they completely miss giving Medium size creatures 2-3 HD.
> 
> A typical human should really have 3 HD, but WotC go to extreme lengths to (wrongly) shoehorn most medium sized creatures into 1 HD.
> 
> Fine - 1/8 HD
> Diminutive - 1/4 HD
> Tiny - 1/2HD
> Small - 1HD
> Medium - 2-3 HD
> Large - 4-7 HD
> Huge - 8-15 HD
> Gargantuan - 16-31 HD
> Colossal - 32-63 HD<<
> 
> This works for HD but not Hit Points - because they increase CON as size increases!




By +4 points (+2 bonus) per size category. Its not a massive leap.

Assuming Con 11 for Medium sized creatures, using d8s for the example.

3 HD Medium = 13 hp
6 HD Large = 37 hp
12 HD Huge = 102 hp
24 HD Gargantuan = 252 hp
48 HD Colossal = 600 hp

Not quite the x8 you theorised, although I see below you are mistakenly using the Humanoid vs. (True) Giant relationship.



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> Go have a look at hit point spreads rather than HD and you'll see what I mean.




Just have - there they are outlined above.



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> In fact of course their 12' giants have many more than x8 hp of their 6' humanoids, as you say.




Foe two very good reasons, the Hit Dice for (true) Giants is artificially inflated*, and secondly the Hit Dice for many medium sized creatures is artificially reduced (to 1 HD).

*Compare an Ogre or Troll to a Hill Giant for instance!



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> >>So you might say, but the Barrett round only deals 3d12 damage (or whatever), but when you think about it thats the same as a Great Wyrm Dragon biting you (before strength bonuses).<<
> 
> Consider the Great Wyrm Power Attacking w STR bonuses, that's a better comparison.




So does that mean you believe the Barrett should deal damage equal to a 80 ft. Dragon biting you?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hello again! 



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> Anyway, the key thing is that an 8lb bomb blast at ground zero to a 12' 1600lb humanoid should work exactly the same as a 1lb bomb blast to a 6' 200lb humanoid, or a 64lb bomb blast to a 24' 12800lb humanoid.  Likewise with bombs, shells, and melee weapons - but you need to be careful use the net, not gross, stats - final damage/round given all factors, including STR bonuses, power attack, **differentials in to-hit chances** due to the way BAB increases but AC doesn't (reliably) with size, iterative attacks from high-hd, etc.




I agree, which is why I proffer both comic book (low physical factor) and realistic (high physical factor) versions.

However, in looking at both versions, the former is ultimately the more playable of the two. 

Although I know you love the latter so that those Powered Armour 4th-level Fighters can start sticking it to the deity characters with those auto-grenade launchers.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> By the way I was contemplating releasing the Bestiary pdf first (any thoughts on that idea from people?) to give people something to chew on. I suppose the general consensus would just be get everything out as quickly as possible. I would have really liked a week or two to edit/playtest the Apotheosis pdf to death. Whereas obviously the Bestiary section won't have that necessity.




Yep, I'm with the consensus -- get it out ASAP.  I guess I'd slightly prefer Apotheosis first, but really I'll take whatever you have.


----------



## S'mon

>>In my opinion the visual evidence trumps the verbal or written evidence - even the script. If the script contradicts the visual evidence then thats certainly something to be addressed. However where the script is ambiguous (in determining the power of a Star Destroyers weapons for example) then the visual evidence is indeed gospel.<<

This seems a purely arbitrary decision, though.  It makes sense when examining real-world phenomena to rate direct empirical evidence higher than secondary accounts.  Movies, however, are not the real world.  And inasmuch as the Star Wars universe obeys consistent physical laws they are clearly **different from our own**!  As are the laws of the Trekverse, of course.  

>>Well fusion does not automatically state nuclear fusion, also the Star Wars galaxy is technologically multi-millenia* advanced from our own - so the idea that they would still be using nuclear fusion is a bit of a stretch.

*IIRC they colonised their galaxy 25,000 years prior to the time of the movies.<<

I think Wong himself addresses this fallacy - 'newer' does not necessarily mean 'better in every way'.  In any case much Star Wars technology appears from the on-screen evidence to be distinctly inferior to modern day technology; SW weapons tech especially from the visual evidence is distinctly unimpressive, with its short ranges and low payloads compared to what you'd expect from real-world weapons.  A modern nuclear destroyer or sub can launch dozens of nuclear missiles each with dozens of megaton-yield warheads in under a minute, yet Star Wars ships act like WW2 battleships and aircraft carriers firing weapons at very short (for space) ranges that then cause unimpressive little explosions* on enemy shields (Trek is the same), far less than you'd get from even low-yield nukes.  Lucas modelled SW space combat on WW2 naval combat, nothing wrong with that but there's no plausible way to extrapolate from today's tech to reach that point.  

*Except when it comes to blowing up planets.  Planets in science-fantasy are amazingly fragile.

BTW you are aware that the antimatter/matter reaction is a 100% matter-to-energy conversion and thus is the most powerful energy reaction possible according to the laws of physics, right?  Anything more powerful in mass-yield terms is thus flatly impossible according to the physical laws of our own universe, and can reasonably be classed as fantasy or as obeying different physical laws from those of our own universe.  SW of course never claims to represent 'our' universe (hence The Force!), only Trek does that (sometimes); which for me makes Trek's own sillynesses a lot more unsatisfying.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I agree, which is why I proffer both comic book (low physical factor) and realistic (high physical factor) versions.
> 
> However, in looking at both versions, the former is ultimately the more playable of the two.
> 
> Although I know you love the latter so that those Powered Armour 4th-level Fighters can start sticking it to the deity characters with those auto-grenade launchers.




What is the difference between low/high physical factors for worlds without modern technology?


----------



## S'mon

CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> What is the difference between low/high physical factors for worlds without modern technology?




According to 1e Manual of the Planes, in a low physical-factor world chemical reactions won't occur so readily; most obvious case is that in a low-PF fantasy world gunpowder will be impossible, as may be many other 
(al)chemical reactions; the workings of the human body may obey different physical laws and many forms of technological progress may be impossible. I'd also suggest that low PFs may explain the unrealistically low damages given for siege weapons like ballistae & catapults in D&D, as well as d20 Modern's low damage ratings for heavy weapons.


----------



## CRGreathouse

S'mon said:
			
		

> According to 1e Manual of the Planes, in a low physical-factor world chemical reactions won't occur so readily; most obvious case is that in a low-PF fantasy world gunpowder will be impossible, as may be many other
> (al)chemical reactions; the workings of the human body may obey different physical laws and many forms of technological progress may be impossible. I'd also suggest that low PFs may explain the unrealistically low damages given for siege weapons like ballistae & catapults in D&D, as well as d20 Modern's low damage ratings for heavy weapons.



So when you get down to it, it's just the siege weapons -- the other things (gunpowder, advanced technologies, d20 Modern heavy weapons) don't apply to low-tech worlds.

Now in 3.5, the ballista is just a scaled-up crossbow, following the standard rules for scaling weapons.  Given this, do you disagree with the crossbow damage, the scaling, or something else that affects the damage of the ballista?


----------



## Dark Wolf 97

S'mon,

     I'd be interested in your ideas for siege weapon damage, mainly because my upcoming campaign will be war/mass battle heavy, and I always thought that the siege weapons seemed a little puny. I used the Warcraft d20 siege weapons which are a little better.

U_K!,

    I would definatly take the Beastiary first, although I'll take anything now.

Later


----------



## Zoatebix

I know _all about_ trying to get things perfect.  Take the time to edit and playtest, but give yourself a personal deadline.  And I'd love to see the Beastiary, if you're ready to give us something to chew on.


----------



## Anubis

Well, UK already knows what I think.  I say skip the PDFs, finish the whole damn thing, and release the print version. 

It already sucks that I have to use Deities & Demigods for the final boss of the current saga of my campaign. :\


----------



## Zoatebix

Anubis said:
			
		

> I say skip the PDFs, finish the whole damn thing, and release the print version.




That wouldn't be bad either!


----------



## -Eä-

Zoatebix said:
			
		

> I know _all about_ trying to get things perfect.  Take the time to edit and playtest, but give yourself a personal deadline.  And I'd love to see the Beastiary, if you're ready to give us something to chew on.




I usually don't comment on release dates and so on, but this time I will.

Even if you are a perfectionist and want everything to be perfect, you should release the first PDF as soon as possible. If it isn't finishet - concentrate all your efforts on getting that single PDF finished and put it on the marked. There will be imperfections that you have overlooked - there always are. However, we, the customers, will help you get rid of most imperfections before the print release. It works good for technological gadgets and should work as good for WPS.

Try to picture yourself in the situation: "The deadline is tomorrow! What shall I do!?" - it usually does the trick for me.

Also, there are probably many people here that could (and probably would like to) help, so that the product will get finished earlier (and that for free). Why not use that enthusiasm to speed up the progress? It would certainly please the customers.


----------



## S'mon

Dark Wolf 97 said:
			
		

> S'mon,
> 
> I'd be interested in your ideas for siege weapon damage, mainly because my upcoming campaign will be war/mass battle heavy, and I always thought that the siege weapons seemed a little puny. I used the Warcraft d20 siege weapons which are a little better.




Well, here's my rules for Arbalests, taking the D&D 'Heavy' crossbow (with its awesome 5.5 average damage!) as a base:

*Arbalests 
A progressive development of the heavy winch crossbow, Arbalests are restricted to military use only and may not be sold to private citizens, though they are occasionally available on the black market at considerable cost.

Light arbalest - the heaviest missile weapon that can be fired without a support, the light arbalest has a draw weight around 200lbs and takes 2 rounds to load by winch. They do 2d10 damage, with a range increment of 120'. They ignore 5 points of target armour. 

Medium arbalest - the medium arbalest requires a light support 'foot' to fire from; although a strong man can carry both arbalest & support they are thus impractical as a skirmish weapon. The medium arbalest has a 300lb draw weight and does 3d10 damage, ignoring 8 points of target armour. They take 3 rounds to reload.

Heavy Arbalest - also known as the Siege Crossbow, this weapon is more a light ballista than a crossbow, it requires a heavy support 'foot' which requires its own bearer and is usually crewed by a two-man team on the battlefield. The heavy arbalest can easily kill a charging warhorse with a single shot. The heavy arbalest has a 400lb draw weight and does 4d10 damage, ignoring 10 points of target armour. It takes 4 rounds to reload.*

The 'Heavy Arbalest' is a reasonable light ballista, a heavier ballista of the will-go-through-six-men variety would have roughly twice the above stats - 8d10 or 4d20 damage, ignore 20 points of armour, take 8 rounds to load, and need a four-man crew.  This would be something like the ballistae used vs the Red Dragons in 'Reign of Fire'; averaging around 44 damage it will reliably kill a heavy warhorse but you'd need a whole cluster of them if you wanted to bring down a large D&D red dragon.

Checking my annotated DMG I see I give a Heavy Catapult 20d6 damage and a light catapult 10d6 damage.  The DMG 'heavy catapulkt' is an onager-type, a counter-weighted Trebuchet would throw a far larger mass and do far more damage on a hit but none of these weapons are likely to hit any but static targets; you could fire a rock at an infantry formation and maybe splat 1d6 soldiers but 'grapeshot' attacks are likely to be far more effective.  If you want to work out detailed stats you can base catapult damage roughly off the D&D rule of thumb that a man-size mass, around 200 lb (maybe a bit less) falling 10' takes (and receives) 1d6 damage, up to 20d6 at 200' (effective terminal velocity).   

I suggest roughly that a 100lb mass should do 10d6 on a hit, 200lb 20d6, and so on, but U_K disagrees with my finding that energy & mass is proportional to hit points & damage in D&D.  If you look at the classic line of Gygaxian humanoids orcs/hobgoblins-gnolls-bugbears-ogres-trolls you find that hit points do scale linearly with mass; giants have about twice as many hp as they should though.  Likewise dragon and other 'animal' hp seem to scale fairly linearly although hit dice don't.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey guys! 

Thanks for the responses and kick up the pants.

By the way I added a brief update to the website. 

Also let me apologise for not finishing off the Godzilla/King Ghidorah stats as yet. I am deliberating over both their breath weapons and I haven't decided whats for the best.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey S'mon! 



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> I suggest roughly that a 100lb mass should do 10d6 on a hit, 200lb 20d6, and so on, but U_K disagrees with my finding that energy & mass is proportional to hit points & damage in D&D.  If you look at the classic line of Gygaxian humanoids orcs/hobgoblins-gnolls-bugbears-ogres-trolls you find that hit points do scale linearly with mass; giants have about twice as many hp as they should though.  Likewise dragon and other 'animal' hp seem to scale fairly linearly although hit dice don't.




I'd be interested to see that catapult damage reverse engineered back to a sling, just like you did with the X-bow damage. 

Regarding X-Bows, obviously the official base damages are much too low.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Regarding X-Bows, obviously the official base damages are much too low.




The official reload times are much too short, though.  As it stands a human Ftr1 can fire 20 times per minute with a light crossbow, and even a commoner can fire a heavy crossbow 10 times per minute.  Heck, an untrained crossbowman with Dex 3 and Str 3 can fire a heavy crossbow 5 times per minute....

Considering that 10-12 arrows per minute is considered a good rate of fire with a *longbow*, this is a little crazy.  A decent crossbowman would get perhaps a quarter as many.


----------



## S'mon

CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> The official reload times are much too short, though.  As it stands a human Ftr1 can fire 20 times per minute with a light crossbow, and even a commoner can fire a heavy crossbow 10 times per minute.  Heck, an untrained crossbowman with Dex 3 and Str 3 can fire a heavy crossbow 5 times per minute....
> 
> Considering that 10-12 arrows per minute is considered a good rate of fire with a *longbow*, this is a little crazy.  A decent crossbowman would get perhaps a quarter as many.




Yeah, the official x-bows only make sense as both being what would in historical terms be considered 'light' crossbows that can be loaded with a simple lever-action, not winch-winch-winch.  Base fire rates are 10 & 5/minute compared to bow's 10/minute, rapid-reload makes it 10/minute for both compared to rapid shot giving the bowman 20/minute - which is itself pretty ridiculous - IRL a trained longbowman firing at an enemy _formation_ can fire 12/minute, but that's firing for speed not accuracy; with aimed shots at a man-sized target the fire rate is around 6/minute.

One conclusion I've reached BTW is that the D&D 3e combat round makes much more sense if it's considered to be 12 seconds rather than 6, this goes for a lot of other factors too, including the action-reaction cycle and movement.


----------



## S'mon

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hey S'mon!
> 
> I'd be interested to see that catapult damage reverse engineered back to a sling, just like you did with the X-bow damage.




I'd assume a slingstone's base d4 damage includes a factor for accuracy as well as kinetic energy, though the KE compares pretty favourably to a rifle bullet; a better comparison might be to a musket round - similar size, lower velocity.  My damage suggestion for catapults is a suggested realistic minimum for 'large object drops from sky' onto PC (or dragon)'; a slingstone fired with aim will do more damage.  I'd also suggest that a catapult or cannon 'grapeshot' attack - historically very popular as an anti-personnel weapon - will do a good deal of damage to potentially a large body of men, something like 1d6 AB +0 attacks each doing 1d6 damage to everyone in a 20'x20' area would seem reasonable for a light catapult, 30'x30' area fior heavy catapult, maybe increase to AB +5 and 2d6 damage for cannon, given its higher velocity - catapult attacks will likely be at terminal velocity or less.


----------



## S'mon

Cool article on the IH site, Craig.    I forgot the Mind Flayers - AIR the outer levels were guarded by Verbeegs, who you chopped through pretty easily aided by your gold dragon's gas-breath (grrr)!     Though I do remember the 'Killing Machine' creature - its XPV worked out as over 10,000, in 1e AD&D DMG rules where orcs were worth 10 XP + 1/hp, ogres 95 +5/hp, demon lords had (suspiciously round) XPVs of 20,000, 40,000 etc.  It was at the time the biggest XP dump you guys (low-mid level PCs) had ever got from a monster by a long way AIR, even though levelling needed far far more XP than it does now.  
I also remember that was the scenario where I had a suit of +4 platemail lying unattended in a stream - can't remember if anyone ever found it...


----------



## Fieari

Hey Krust, your sermon on why gods SHOULD have stats is down, and I wanted to link to it in this thread.  More people spouting that gods should never have stats, and that the only purpose to stats is so that players can kill them, etc...


----------



## Anabstercorian

Something I've been reading in this thread that's been making me leery of the final product, frankly, is the willingness to push WoTC's design decisions aside when they strike you as inferior to your own.  S'mon, Upper Krust, you guys do realize that, quality or not, that's the baseline we all play to, and if you start ignoring it and building your assumptions on what you think SHOULD be as opposed to what IS, you're going to produce a product that meshes very awkwardly with DnD as it is envisioned in the core rules...

I'm still going to buy the product, but I'd love some reassurance on this issue.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi S'mon! 



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> Cool article on the IH site, Craig.




He he! 

Brings back the memories! I mentioned to Bob if he had any Mirv Sheelan stories or anecdotes that I would post them too. Although since most of his would probably show him in a bad light anyway...like that time he actually waited for Hel to appear after he had killed her High Priest so he could teach her a lesson...or his tactics for use against Tiamat; boxing us all in so that we all took all of the breath weapons...from her and her consorts, admittedly he did have some highlights - sacrificing himself against Wotan was a master stroke; although of course the guv'nor still had to bring home the bacon...that was the closest fight ever too, a great victory. 



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> I forgot the Mind Flayers - AIR the outer levels were guarded by Verbeegs, who you chopped through pretty easily aided by your gold dragon's gas-breath (grrr)!




Verbeegs, they must have been so easy I forgot them. 



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> Though I do remember the 'Killing Machine' creature - its XPV worked out as over 10,000,




The only thing I remember was that it had 120 hp.



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> in 1e AD&D DMG rules where orcs were worth 10 XP + 1/hp, ogres 95 +5/hp, demon lords had (suspiciously round) XPVs of 20,000, 40,000 etc.  It was at the time the biggest XP dump you guys (low-mid level PCs) had ever got from a monster by a long way AIR, even though levelling needed far far more XP than it does now.




Thrin was 6th-level at the time (I never forget a death). 

We didn't start fighting Demon Lords until 8th-level. By the way who has that magic sword that was used on Graz'zt - the one you throw in the air and it pivots and impales the target...that was a cool sword? Did Thrin ever buy it off great uncle? On second thoughts I think I gave it to Vantor, it was the greatsword he used before he got the +5 vorpler. So Thrin must have it around. 



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> I also remember that was the scenario where I had a suit of +4 platemail lying unattended in a stream - can't remember if anyone ever found it...




For purely sentimental reasons Thrin revisits the site (and of course with detect magic as standard)...does he happen to find anything? Oh and since I know you well S'mon - assume all defenses active*. 

*Or as they say in Star Trek - "Shields Up!".


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Fieari mate! 



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> Hey Krust, your sermon on why gods SHOULD have stats is down, and I wanted to link to it in this thread.




Sorry dude - I took that down for some reworking. I'll try and sort ito out over the next day or two for you.



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> More people spouting that gods should never have stats, and that the only purpose to stats is so that players can kill them, etc...




I'm sure they don't really mean it.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Anabstercorian mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> Something I've been reading in this thread that's been making me leery of the final product, frankly, is the willingness to push WoTC's design decisions aside when they strike you as inferior to your own.  S'mon, Upper Krust, you guys do realize that, quality or not, that's the baseline we all play to, and if you start ignoring it and building your assumptions on what you think SHOULD be as opposed to what IS, you're going to produce a product that meshes very awkwardly with DnD as it is envisioned in the core rules...
> 
> I'm still going to buy the product, but I'd love some reassurance on this issue.




Easy Tiger! 

Remember those* were the changes to our 1st/2nd Edition campaign. They have nothing whatsoever to do with 3rd Edition nor the Immortals Handbook. 

*Assuming you are refering to the shrine article?



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> I'm still going to buy the product, but I'd love some reassurance on this issue.




Trust the Krust!


----------



## Anabstercorian

I was referring to the 3 HD medium sized creatures and the drastically under-damaging crossbow comments, actually, but nonetheless I feel better.


----------



## Fieari

I was under the impression that the discussion was about trying to figure out an extensible system for determining scaling situations, finding that there was one in place but that for some reason WotC made all these exceptions that don't make sense.  The discussion wasn't about removing the exceptions, but rather about determining the system for scaling.  Although, if you WANTED you could remove the exceptions, but that really wasn't the issue.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> I was referring to the 3 HD medium sized creatures




Well I actually stand by those comments, although I'm not going to bother changing any Monster stats to take this into account so it won't have any impact on anything. 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> and the drastically under-damaging crossbow comments,




Again, this is simply a known fact. X-bows in D&D have always been the stuff of nonsense and I'm sure they'll make a mess of them again in 4th Edition. 

Where are the repeating X-Bows from the Hawk the Slayer movie; thats what I want to know. Either that guy was a 200th-level X-Bow specialist or his repeating X-Bow was firing about a dozen bolts in about 2 seconds.

In fact I am just wondering if you could create a minigun like repeating X-Bow for those "I ain't got time to bleed" moments. 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> actually, but nonetheless I feel better.




Hey, I'm always here if you have any questions or queries dude.


----------



## Anabstercorian

I still don't see why a crossbow would do dramatically more damage than an arrow shot...


----------



## S'mon

Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> Something I've been reading in this thread that's been making me leery of the final product, frankly, is the willingness to push WoTC's design decisions aside when they strike you as inferior to your own.




I'm not involved in writing the Immortals Handbook*.  Certainly I think many WoTC design decisions suck & will happily push them aside in favour of my own superior house rules, but that's irrelevant to the contents of the IH.  

*OK, a bunch of stuff in the IH like Worship Points originally comes from my old AD&D campaign, but that long predates WotC's acquisition of TSR , never mind 3e!


----------



## S'mon

Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> I still don't see why a crossbow would do dramatically more damage than an arrow shot...




Given the same draw weight a crossbow will do slightly less damage than a longbow, not more.  But the most powerful historical longbows have draw weights around 130lbs, while x-bows can have arbitrarily high draw weights and 300lb+ was common. The useful draw weight of a longbow is limited by the strength of the wielder; with a winch crossbow it's only limited by the strength of the materials.  So you can easily make a crossbow that does ten times the damage of a longbow - but it'll only fire 1/10 (or less) as often.  IRL that's usually overkill, in D&D though it might be quite handy.


----------



## S'mon

BTW I reckon 3HD might be the average for medium non-humanoids, and 1hd for medium humanoids?  IRL humans are far weaker than other animals of similar size, about 1/6 as strong as chimps, say.  It wouldn't be unreasonable to factor that in to hit dice.


----------



## S'mon

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Verbeegs, they must have been so easy I forgot them.




I had them all - the whole clan - beautifully statted out in great detail (by 1e standards - nothing like 3e statblocks of course!) and you just killed them all with Cresswell's Gaseous Breath Weapon of Mass Destruction!    

They were too young to die... *sob*


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Again, this is simply a known fact. X-bows in D&D have always been the stuff of nonsense and I'm sure they'll make a mess of them again in 4th Edition.




If you criticize the damage, surely you also see problems with the rate of fire, no?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey S'mon! 



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> BTW I reckon 3HD might be the average for medium non-humanoids, and 1hd for medium humanoids?




1 HD for medium sized anything is a bit silly given the fundamental laws of the system.



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> IRL humans are far weaker than other animals of similar size, about 1/6 as strong as chimps, say.




Well thats strength though, not Hit Dice. Though you could probably make a case for using strength bonus as damage reduction maybe.

As for chimps they are not in the same proportion as humans so that (often used) comparison is invalid. 



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> It wouldn't be unreasonable to factor that in to hit dice.




Well (as per the rules I proffer in the CR/EL doc.) squat creatures (like Dwarves and Fire Giants...and Gorillas) have x1.5 HD over the base 1 HD/2 ft. tall/long. So a 4ft tall Dwarf would have 3 HD, and a 6 ft tall Gorilla would have 4 HD, a 12ft tall Fire Giant would have 9 HD etc.


----------



## Upper_Krust

S'mon said:
			
		

> I had them all - the whole clan - beautifully statted out in great detail (by 1e standards - nothing like 3e statblocks of course!) and you just killed them all with Cresswell's Gaseous Breath Weapon of Mass Destruction!
> 
> They were too young to die... *sob*




It was for the best, trust me. 

Anyway the Mind Flayers probably sewed the verbeeg corpses together to make another 'Killing Machine'.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi CRGreathouse mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> If you criticize the damage, surely you also see problems with the rate of fire, no?




Absolutely, its not a one dimensional problem or answer in this case.

By the way (all) I meant to ask what you though was more reflective of Godzillas breath weapon.

#1: 160d20 'atomic' energy

#2: Split the breath weapon between blast(50%)/fire(35%)/radiation(15%).

Something like: 80d20 blast/56d6 fire/4d6 points of constitution damage.


----------



## historian

Krust, I enjoyed seeing Thrin, those are some STRONG stats for 1st ed.

I've also enjoyed reading the last few pages of this thread, from the crunchy stuff to the more narrative.

I agree with the boards' disappointment with the scaling of d20 modern, very troubling.  I'm wondering whether immortals statted in low physical factor campaigns would look different than those statted in high physical factor campaigns?  Ex. - The requisite blasting power required to destroy a planet in a low physical factor world might be very different, would the difference make that level of power unavailable to an elder god in high physical factor campaigns but not in a low physical factor campaign?

Another problem with 3ed scaling, at least at high levels, is that strength damage bonuses peter out.  For instance, I think I calculated that a strength level of approx. 605 would allow one to lift a planet, but the damage bonus associated with that level of strength would only be + 297.  Certainly size categories can adjust for that, but what about super-powered beings who are only 6' or so?

If you don't get to these questions don't worry -- save up for the IH.


----------



## CRGreathouse

S'mon said:
			
		

> Given the same draw weight a crossbow will do slightly less damage than a longbow, not more.  But the most powerful historical longbows have draw weights around 130lbs, while x-bows can have arbitrarily high draw weights and 300lb+ was common. The useful draw weight of a longbow is limited by the strength of the wielder; with a winch crossbow it's only limited by the strength of the materials.  So you can easily make a crossbow that does ten times the damage of a longbow - but it'll only fire 1/10 (or less) as often.  IRL that's usually overkill, in D&D though it might be quite handy.




I don't agree that it would be only slightly less; a longbow should do more damage than a crossbow of twice its draw weight.  But to be fair, crossbows with truely awe-inspiring draw weights have existed -- over 500 pounds!


----------



## Interested2

"Anyway the Mind Flayers probably sewed the verbeeg corpses together to make another 'Killing Machine'."

Careful there with the OGL..


----------



## Moulin Rogue

That HD size progression caught my eye, because I was thinking of going with the WP/VP system from Star Wars in my next campaign... and it happens that from Medium-size on down, it coincides well with the idea in this thread of basing it on size: a base of 10 wound points virtually matches a base of 2-3 HD. 

It doesn't scale well at all for multi-HD monsters from Large on up though... wonder if a formula for Hit Die beyond first could be found that could be applied to big multi-HD monsters.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi historian mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Krust, I enjoyed seeing Thrin, those are some STRONG stats for 1st ed.




The strongest. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I've also enjoyed reading the last few pages of this thread, from the crunchy stuff to the more narrative.




Some interesting points being raised.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I agree with the boards' disappointment with the scaling of d20 modern, very troubling.




Well I don't really have a problem with d20 Modern, more with d20 Future which seems to have an almost non-existent physical factor.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I'm wondering whether immortals statted in low physical factor campaigns would look different than those statted in high physical factor campaigns?  Ex. - The requisite blasting power required to destroy a planet in a low physical factor world might be very different, would the difference make that level of power unavailable to an elder god in high physical factor campaigns but not in a low physical factor campaign?




Well not necessarily. One way to look at this is comparing Hollywood Godzilla to Japanese (Toho) Godzilla. You could say the Hollywood Godzilla exists in a High-Physical Factor setting. However both would have similar stats (although the Hollywood Godzilla seemed to be just a big dinosaur and didn't exhibit any special abilities).

The Gods of Low Physical Factor worlds might be like the Highlander Immortals in a High Physical Factor world. In fact our Cyberpunk 2020 foray felt a lot like Highlander.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Another problem with 3ed scaling, at least at high levels, is that strength damage bonuses peter out.  For instance, I think I calculated that a strength level of approx. 605 would allow one to lift a planet, but the damage bonus associated with that level of strength would only be + 297.  Certainly size categories can adjust for that, but what about super-powered beings who are only 6' or so?




Well I think its strength 410 to lift a planet of Earth size (+200 bonus). However, one way to circumnavigate this (that I have in the IH) is that a certain amount of strength multiplies your base damage.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> If you don't get to these questions don't worry -- save up for the IH.




...'don't get to questions'...unthinkable.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi CRGreathouse mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I don't agree that it would be only slightly less; a longbow should do more damage than a crossbow of twice its draw weight.  But to be fair, crossbows with truely awe-inspiring draw weights have existed -- over 500 pounds!




What is the average draw weights of bows? 100lbs?

Maybe there should be a strength bonus automatically assigned to X-bows dependant on their draw weight?


----------



## S'mon

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> By the way (all) I meant to ask what you though was more reflective of Godzillas breath weapon.
> 
> #1: 160d20 'atomic' energy
> 
> #2: Split the breath weapon between blast(50%)/fire(35%)/radiation(15%).
> 
> Something like: 80d20 blast/56d6 fire/4d6 points of constitution damage.




Is Blast the physical impact of the superheated air; Fire the heat damage, and Radiation is damage from Gamma rays and Alpha & Beta particle radiation?  In that case I'd think Blast & Fire damage would be equal and Radiation only a small direct effect (though with lingering consequences).  I suspect that trying to 'realistically' model a breath weapon based on a nuclear blast might be a doomed enterprise, in D&D terms Godzilla's breath looks like Fire breath so that's what I'd tend to treat it as, or else sui generis 'atomic' energy if you didn't want ER (Fire) to apply.


----------



## S'mon

historian said:
			
		

> Another problem with 3ed scaling, at least at high levels, is that strength damage bonuses peter out.  For instance, I think I calculated that a strength level of approx. 605 would allow one to lift a planet, but the damage bonus associated with that level of strength would only be + 297.  Certainly size categories can adjust for that, but what about super-powered beings who are only 6' or so?




Well Power Attack is your friend here.    But obviously a 6' being can't kill a planet by hitting it, no matter how strong.


----------



## S'mon

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> What is the average draw weights of bows? 100lbs?




Typical modern hunting bows average around 40lb draw weight, that's something like a D&D non-mighty shortbow (edit: or D&D hand crossbow).  AFAIK 100lb would be somewhat above average for a 15th century English longbow (the ones that caused spinal deformities in the archers), something like a D&D mighty longbow +2 damage (edit: or D&D 'heavy' crossbow).  A 140lb draw weight bow would be at the extreme limit of possibility, like some found on the Mary Rose, something like a D&D mighty longbow +4 damage.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Interested2! 



			
				Interested2 said:
			
		

> "Anyway the Mind Flayers probably sewed the verbeeg corpses together to make another 'Killing Machine'."
> 
> Careful there with the OGL..




Too true - and the Order of the Stick is a great strip.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Moulin Rogue! 



			
				Moulin Rogue said:
			
		

> That HD size progression caught my eye, because I was thinking of going with the WP/VP system from Star Wars in my next campaign... and it happens that from Medium-size on down, it coincides well with the idea in this thread of basing it on size: a base of 10 wound points virtually matches a base of 2-3 HD.
> 
> It doesn't scale well at all for multi-HD monsters from Large on up though... wonder if a formula for Hit Die beyond first could be found that could be applied to big multi-HD monsters.




Just make it 2 wound points per ft. tall/long. With x1.5 for heavy set creatures (such as Gamoreans or Rancors).


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey S'mon! 



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> Is Blast the physical impact of the superheated air; Fire the heat damage, and Radiation is damage from Gamma rays and Alpha & Beta particle radiation?




Yes.



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> In that case I'd think Blast & Fire damage would be equal and Radiation only a small direct effect (though with lingering consequences).




http://www.fas.org/nuke/intro/nuke/effects.htm



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> I suspect that trying to 'realistically' model a breath weapon based on a nuclear blast might be a doomed enterprise,




Indeed. ALthough I would have said tricky but not impossible. 



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> in D&D terms Godzilla's breath looks like Fire breath so that's what I'd tend to treat it as, or else sui generis 'atomic' energy if you didn't want ER (Fire) to apply.




In the absence of one clear solution I'll go with the simpler option...for now.

160d20.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey all! 



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> But obviously a 6' being can't kill a planet by hitting it, no matter how strong.




I should point out here that S'mon has never watched Dragonball Z.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hello! 



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> Typical modern hunting bows average around 40lb draw weight, that's something like a D&D non-mighty shortbow (edit: or D&D hand crossbow).  AFAIK 100lb would be somewhat above average for a 15th century English longbow (the ones that caused spinal deformities in the archers), something like a D&D mighty longbow +2 damage (edit: or D&D 'heavy' crossbow).  A 140lb draw weight bow would be at the extreme limit of possibility, like some found on the Mary Rose, something like a D&D mighty longbow +4 damage.




Perhaps if we match draw weight to Light Load (on the Carrying Capacity Table) we can determine X-bow strength bonus.

eg. 120lb draw weight X-Bow = Str 20 (+5 damage)

300lb draw weight X-Bow = Str 26 (+8 damage)

500lb draw weight X-Bow = Str 30 (+10 damage)

You could maybe set it up:

Light +5 (Str 20); Medium +7 (Str 25); Heavy +10 (Str 30)?

The strength bonuses would also be effective vs. AC. 

Making a X-bow in the hands of even a novice pretty deadly.

Maybe adding +5 Strength (effectively doubling the load) each time as you go up to seige weaponry. In addition to the base damage increase of x1.5 for each larger size category of bolt.

Repeating X-Bows would be at -5 strength (or perhaps as much as -10)?

Light X-Bow 1d6+5 (and +5 to hit)

Medium X-Bow 1d8+7 (+7 to hit)

Heavy X-Bow 2d6+10 (+10 to hit)

Light Arbalest 3d6+12 (+12 to hit)

Heavy Arbalest 4d6+15 (+15 to hit)

Heavy Repeating X-Bow 1d8+7 (+7 to hit)

What do you guys think?


----------



## S'mon

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hey all!
> 
> I should point out here that S'mon has never watched Dragonball Z.




Well, never for more than a couple of seconds...


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi all! 

I was replying to a post over at dicefreaks and intimated the following...

***

At the moment it looks like the Bestiary first.

It will be 61 monsters and 9 templates (with examples...although I should point out that 2 of the Templates* are fairly simple and not really what you would call a full Template).

*Dire and Legendary.

Challenge Ratings range from about 20 to 2000. With most being between 20-200. 

There are 11 unique monsters, you'll probably be able to guess at least four of them. 

I'll post a full list on my website in a day or so there are some really interesting ones (if I do say so myself...and I do). 

***

I should add that I did scale my plans back significantly to the extent that I have an extra 35 monsters that didn't make the cut this time...thats not counting the 3 for the Psi web enhancement...nor the extra twelve I already have half finished for the website.

Regarding the spread of CRs its pretty even from Hero-deity (eg. 3.5 Balor is akin to a weak Hero-deity) up to Greater Deity. After that there are 9 monsters beyond Greater Power; I was going to have more but I'll wait to see how they are recieved and gauge reactions before I would ever plan another such Bestiary. At this stage I am just presuming people want to see an even spread rather than a pyramid spread (since other epic monster books will no doubt concentrate on the lower rungs).


----------



## Upper_Krust

hey S'mon! 



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> Well, never for more than a couple of seconds...




It does have a tendency to be repetitive so even from that few seconds you could probably guess the plot for every show.

So in a nutshell...it usually goes something like this:

#1: Heroes fight and lose to Villain.
#2: Heroes come back stronger and win, damage the villain done is reset by the Dragonballs (Big wish stones).
#3: Villain comes back stronger or new villain is introduced and kicks the heroes @sses.
#4: Heroes come back stronger and win.
#5+: Repeat ad infinitum until people both the heroes and villains are wiping out galaxies.

I think its trump card is that the character design is so good and so outlandish that you tune in to see how ridiculous things can get and how they top the last fights.

I think one of my favourite episodes was a martial arts tournament where Goku (the hero) narrowly defeated Vegeta (sort of a neutral) in the opening bout; who then proceeded to remove the 5 ton training weights from his garb. As I recall he started moving quite quick after that.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Perhaps if we match draw weight to Light Load (on the Carrying Capacity Table) we can determine X-bow strength bonus.
> 
> eg. 120lb draw weight X-Bow = Str 20 (+5 damage)
> 
> 300lb draw weight X-Bow = Str 26 (+8 damage)
> 
> 500lb draw weight X-Bow = Str 30 (+10 damage)[...]
> 
> What do you guys think?




I think you're greatly overestimating the mechanical efficiency of medieval crossbows.  Modern crosbows would be hard-pressed to show such efficiency!

I'd halve the added damage and use a base d8: light 1d8+2 (standard), medium 1d8+5 (full round), heavy 1d10+7 (two rounds), or something like that.



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> At this stage I am just presuming people want to see an even spread rather than a pyramid spread (since other epic monster books will no doubt concentrate on the lower rungs).




With the release of the IH, there will be three sources for epic-level monsters: the ELH (60 monsters, CR 5 to 57; 4 templates), Legends of Avadnu (11 monsters, CR 20 to 30; 2 templates), and the IH itself (61 monsters, CR 20 to 2000; 9 templates).

There's not a whole lot out there.  Maybe you can release a Bestiary II if the first is a success (after the other 3 PDFs, of course)?

Regardless, thanks for the information.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I think you're greatly overestimating the mechanical efficiency of medieval crossbows.




Possibly, however I was just running the idea up the flagpole to see if anyone saluted it. 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Modern crosbows would be hard-pressed to show such efficiency!




I'd halve the added damage and use a base d8: light 1d8+2 (standard), medium 1d8+5 (full round), heavy 1d10+7 (two rounds), or something like that.

Converting that into draw weight we get (approx.):

Light = 62 lbs
Medium = 125 lbs
Heavy = 250 lbs

What size are X-Bow Bolts? *Looks around the net* About 6 inches to 15 inches for bolts and 30 inches for arrows.

So perhaps 1d6 for 3 inch darts (Hand X-bow), 1d8 for 6 inch bolts (Light X-Bow) and 1d12 (or 2d6) for 15 inch bolts (Heavy X-Bow). With 2d8 base for arrows? Also 1d10 for Medium X-Bows (10 inch bolts?). Javelin would be 4d6.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> With the release of the IH, there will be three sources for epic-level monsters: the ELH (60 monsters, CR 5 to 57; 4 templates),




Well half a dozen of those monsters were not actually epic and there were a lot of 'near-duplicates' (Lavawight-Winterwight; Shape of Fire/Shadow of the Void; Devastation Vermin - various; Primal Elementals)



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Legends of Avadnu (11 monsters, CR 20 to 30; 2 templates),




I read your review of that, I'll probably buy it when the credit card business gets sorted very shortly.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> and the IH itself (61 monsters, CR 20 to 2000; 9 templates).




Actually I just double checked its 60 monsters and 9 Templates.   



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> There's not a whole lot out there.  Maybe you can release a Bestiary II if the first is a success (after the other 3 PDFs, of course)?




That would be the plan, a lone epic/immortal bestiary could of course have many more pages. Although I think the numbers in the IH are pretty good and I think more than 100 pages for a pdf can be seen as unwieldy.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Regardless, thanks for the information.




Your welcome.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Well half a dozen of those monsters were not actually epic and there were a lot of 'near-duplicates' (Lavawight-Winterwight; Shape of Fire/Shadow of the Void; Devastation Vermin - various; Primal Elementals)




Of the monsters in the ELH, I use 35 out of 64*, or 55%. As long as I use at least 38 of your monsters it'll be more useful to me than the ELH.

I don't actually like any of the repeated monsters, so they're in the 'useless' part of the ELH for me.

Edit: I use 77% of the Legends of Avadnu monsters, but I'm more likely to use their templates on my own creatures than the ELH templates -- Bygone and Scion of Krug vs. Pseudonatural and Paragon?

* Including sample template creatures


----------



## Anabstercorian

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I'd halve the added damage and use a base d8: light 1d8+2 (standard), medium 1d8+5 (full round), heavy 1d10+7 (two rounds), or something like that.
> 
> Converting that into draw weight we get (approx.):
> 
> Light = 62 lbs
> Medium = 125 lbs
> Heavy = 250 lbs
> 
> What size are X-Bow Bolts? *Looks around the net* About 6 inches to 15 inches for bolts and 30 inches for arrows.
> 
> So perhaps 1d6 for 3 inch darts (Hand X-bow), 1d8 for 6 inch bolts (Light X-Bow) and 1d12 (or 2d6) for 15 inch bolts (Heavy X-Bow). With 2d8 base for arrows? Also 1d10 for Medium X-Bows (10 inch bolts?). Javelin would be 4d6.




That sounds reasonable, more or less.  Not realistic (nothing can really be realistic, given how many places you can hit someone without doing any real immediate damage) but certainly reasonable.

I'd say that you'd need some sort of rule that you can't leave the crossbow cocked for this to be balanced.  The string would lose elasticity, or the bow would.  That way you force someone using this to accept the difficulty inherent in reloading them as a cost of using them in combat, as well as making them even more of a 'wizard' weapon.  The more you know about when and what you will be fighting, the handier they are.


----------



## historian

Hey S'mon and Krust!  



> Well Power Attack is your friend here.  But obviously a 6' being can't kill a planet by hitting it, no matter how strong.




 

You've never seen me with my infinity gauntlet on. .   In all seriousness, it _is_ physically possible.  A rules question though -- can you add more to your power attack than your base strength bonus?  I think the answer is no, even if your BAB would allow it, but I'm not 100% certain.

I'm more interested in the scaling parameters themselves than actually playing such a character, but if the event is a logical possibility, my feeling is that it should be explainable within the context of the rules.  This is one of the major reasons why Krust's IH project is so interesting.

That said, I must admit I'm more of a rues-lite player and DM.  I just want everything to make sense.  My feeling is that the IH will cover all of the bases on both fronts (I'll probably purchase the thing twice in any event to repay UK for all of the questions he has answered).

On that note S'mon, I recently read Dan Brown's "Angels and Demons."  I'm normally not into this kind of book (my mother-in-law insisted that I read it) but the lead "bad guy" Janus, the leader of the Illuminati, is a compelling character -- I could provide a homebrew outline of stats if it would be helpful.  I'm wondering what insights you and Krust would be willing to share on how to run a campaign of this sort (strategy big-time over force) and what thoughts you may have on up-scaling this "Janus" character (maybe even beyond greater god) without losing the flavor of subterfuge.

Thanks in advance guys.


----------



## Anabstercorian

historian said:
			
		

> A rules question though -- can you add more to your power attack than your base strength bonus?  I think the answer is no, even if your BAB would allow it, but I'm not 100% certain.




You sure can add more to your power attack than your base strength bonus!  What made you think you couldn't?


----------



## Alzrius

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> #1: Heroes fight and lose to Villain.
> #2: Heroes come back stronger and win, damage the villain done is reset by the Dragonballs (Big wish stones).
> #3: Villain comes back stronger or new villain is introduced and kicks the heroes @sses.
> #4: Heroes come back stronger and win.
> #5+: Repeat ad infinitum until people both the heroes and villains are wiping out galaxies.




To be fair, a significantly large number of good guy/bad guy shows use this method, just on a much smaller power scale.



> _I think its trump card is that the character design is so good and so outlandish that you tune in to see how ridiculous things can get and how they top the last fights._




I find it interesting to hear you say that, since DBZ is the IH of anime. Simply put, no other show deals (at least not as the main cast) with characters who have that level of power - most others that I've seen stop at characters who can crack a planet, if not before. I found it refreshing to see a show that pushed the envelope so much farther. The fact that it needed that many episodes to resolve the larger fights seemed only right because of that - you can't do justice to that much power in a single 24-minute episode.


----------



## Fieari

Well, FLCL (Furi Kuri, Fooly Kooly, whatever they're calling it now) had more powerful characters... Atomsk the Pirate King is an energy being so powerful that he "steals entire star systems."  He _effortlessly_ defeats war machines that would flatten the entire planet in the final episode, and that fight scene with guitar vs. guitar was awesome... DBZ levels of epicness with none of the simplemindedness.

FLCL is one of the weirdest anime I've seen, and one I have DEEP respect for.  It's revealing of the plot works like this:

It displays situation A.  To understand A, you must understand B, which is displayed next, but not explained.  To understand B, you must understand C, which is displayed next, but not explained.  To understand C... and so on.  You can't understand ANY of what's going on until the very final piece is given to you, and then it all cascades downwards causing everything to make sense.  At the same time, it's wonderfully allegorical and chock full of literary meaning.  I love that show.


----------



## S'mon

Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> You sure can add more to your power attack than your base strength bonus!  What made you think you couldn't?




Per the PHB the only limiter is your Base Attack Bonus, and I think an ELH FAQ says that Epic Attack Bonus should be counted as BAB for this purpose.

Funnily enough, although I am the originator of the Worship Points System and am a big fan of deity-level play, I'm not at all a fan of galaxy-smashing or even planet-smashing antics, my model for deity play is myth like the Iliad where gods and mortal heroes contend on the same terms.  I like god-PCs to very much have human concerns, not how many planets they can eat before breakfast.  I much prefer Norse and Greek myth to Vedic or Buddhist, mostly for this reason.  Likewise I love the idea of matching D&D-scaled gods and dragons against realistically-scaled technological weaponry and discovering that 1e AD&D Odin might make short work of a Panzer-IV but is heavily outclassed by an M1 Abrams.


----------



## S'mon

Oh BTW it's worth mentioning that Thrin's 1e stats listed in the IH page are his official GM-authorised stats, but the 3e stats stats for Thrin that Craig's planning to include in the published IH will be his own unofficial interpretation developed in line with the IH rules and to fit with the deity power levels in 3e D&DG, we've discussed Thrin's Level (I think he gets 80 levels total in 3e) but AFAIK he doesn't plan to have the whole stat block authorised by me pre-publication.  
I would have to wait to see the stats before I decided whether those would be the stats I'd use for Thrin were he to appear in my campaign under 3e rules (which is not something I'm planning to happen in the near future, but it's always possible someone might attack him in Asgard or something!) 
At the close of our 1e/2e campaign play, Thrin was a Lesser power with a good way to go before he made the next divine rank (Greater God, as per the 1e AD&D ranking system - no Intermediates back then); in combat ability he was superior to his patron Tyr, but still inferior to Odin and Thor (all 3 Greater Gods in 1e L&L), I'd expect his 3e stats to reflect that.


----------



## S'mon

BTW Thrin's 162% Magic Resistance included a big boost from the Sword of Thrin AIR, specifically the Akarian Emerald in its pommel. The Sword Of Thrin was a 13,000-year-old artifact initially wielded by the first Lord Thrin, the lieutenant of the elven commander Corethion in the Dark-Light wars that banished the demon-worshipping Dark Elves from the surface of Ea.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi CRGreathouse mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Of the monsters in the ELH, I use 35 out of 64*, or 55%. As long as I use at least 38 of your monsters it'll be more useful to me than the ELH.
> 
> I don't actually like any of the repeated monsters, so they're in the 'useless' part of the ELH for me.
> 
> Edit: I use 77% of the Legends of Avadnu monsters, but I'm more likely to use their templates on my own creatures than the ELH templates -- Bygone and Scion of Krug vs. Pseudonatural and Paragon?
> 
> * Including sample template creatures




Well I am hoping you will find 100% of the monsters interesting and therefore plan to use all of them.   

I must admit I do like some of the ideas in the Legends of Avadnu monsters - the Bygone Template idea for one.


----------



## Upper_Krust

historian said:
			
		

> Hey S'mon and Krust!




Hey you too! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> You've never seen me with my infinity gauntlet on. .   In all seriousness, it _is_ physically possible.




Perhaps a Hecatonchiere using a Convergent Fist Divine Ability striking the planet like the Death Star Superlaser.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> A rules question though -- can you add more to your power attack than your base strength bonus?  I think the answer is no, even if your BAB would allow it, but I'm not 100% certain.




Already been answered this. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I'm more interested in the scaling parameters themselves than actually playing such a character, but if the event is a logical possibility, my feeling is that it should be explainable within the context of the rules. This is one of the major reasons why Krust's IH project is so interesting.




Planetary hit points (using d20 Modern rules) isn't very much.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> That said, I must admit I'm more of a rues-lite player and DM.  I just want everything to make sense.




Me too.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> My feeling is that the IH will cover all of the bases on both fronts (I'll probably purchase the thing twice in any event to repay UK for all of the questions he has answered).




Now, now. Stop that foolish talk. Once will be enough...unless you are really really rich of course in which case whaddya mean only twice. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> On that note S'mon, I recently read Dan Brown's "Angels and Demons."  I'm normally not into this kind of book (my mother-in-law insisted that I read it) but the lead "bad guy" Janus, the leader of the Illuminati, is a compelling character -- I could provide a homebrew outline of stats if it would be helpful.  I'm wondering what insights you and Krust would be willing to share on how to run a campaign of this sort (strategy big-time over force) and what thoughts you may have on up-scaling this "Janus" character (maybe even beyond greater god) without losing the flavor of subterfuge.
> 
> Thanks in advance guys.




Sufficed to say I'll be addressing the Illuminati in the IH.


----------



## Anabstercorian

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Perhaps a Hecatonchiere using a Convergent Fist Divine Ability striking the planet like the Death Star Superlaser.




Dude.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Alzrius mate! 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> To be fair, a significantly large number of good guy/bad guy shows use this method, just on a much smaller power scale.




I wasn't knocking DBZ - I'm actually a fan of it! 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> I find it interesting to hear you say that, since DBZ is the IH of anime. Simply put, no other show deals (at least not as the main cast) with characters who have that level of power - most others that I've seen stop at characters who can crack a planet, if not before. I found it refreshing to see a show that pushed the envelope so much farther. The fact that it needed that many episodes to resolve the larger fights seemed only right because of that - you can't do justice to that much power in a single 24-minute episode.




He he! 

I was just looking at a DBZ site and if we convert Power Ratings into EXP then the very top guys just make it over 1000th-level by the end.

http://www.myfavoritegames.com/dragonball-z/Info/Dragonball-Z-PowerLevels.htm

eg. Uub (500,000,000 EXP) = 1000th-level

eg. Android 20 (5,000,000 EXP) = 100th-level

Cell ranges from 300th to 500th-level

Frieza ranges from 32nd-level to 154th-level (Perfect Frieza)


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Fieari mate! 



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> Well, FLCL (Furi Kuri, Fooly Kooly, whatever they're calling it now) had more powerful characters... Atomsk the Pirate King is an energy being so powerful that he "steals entire star systems."  He _effortlessly_ defeats war machines that would flatten the entire planet in the final episode, and that fight scene with guitar vs. guitar was awesome... DBZ levels of epicness with none of the simplemindedness.
> 
> FLCL is one of the weirdest anime I've seen, and one I have DEEP respect for.  It's revealing of the plot works like this:
> 
> It displays situation A.  To understand A, you must understand B, which is displayed next, but not explained.  To understand B, you must understand C, which is displayed next, but not explained.  To understand C... and so on.  You can't understand ANY of what's going on until the very final piece is given to you, and then it all cascades downwards causing everything to make sense.  At the same time, it's wonderfully allegorical and chock full of literary meaning.  I love that show.




I'll have to see if one of my friends can *cough* download an episode. Sounds interesting.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey S'mon! 



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> Likewise I love the idea of matching D&D-scaled gods and dragons against realistically-scaled technological weaponry




I know...Thrins still got the scars*.

*Emotional ones that is, obviously he healed himself of the physical damage.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey S'mon! 



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> Oh BTW it's worth mentioning that Thrin's 1e stats listed in the IH page are his official GM-authorised stats, but the 3e stats stats for Thrin that Craig's planning to include in the published IH will be his own unofficial interpretation developed in line with the IH rules and to fit with the deity power levels in 3e D&DG, we've discussed Thrin's Level (I think he gets 80 levels total in 3e) but AFAIK he doesn't plan to have the whole stat block authorised by me pre-publication.
> 
> I would have to wait to see the stats before I decided whether those would be the stats I'd use for Thrin were he to appear in my campaign under 3e rules




What am I...chopped liver!? Have a little faith dude. This is me remember. 



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> (which is not something I'm planning to happen in the near future, but it's always possible someone might attack him in Asgard or something!)




But are they ready for the Steel Colossi 3.5 stats! Ha ha! Invade Asgard at your peril fools! 



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> At the close of our 1e/2e campaign play, Thrin was a Lesser power with a good way to go before he made the next divine rank (Greater God, as per the 1e AD&D ranking system - no Intermediates back then); in combat ability he was superior to his patron Tyr, but still inferior to Odin and Thor (all 3 Greater Gods in 1e L&L), I'd expect his 3e stats to reflect that.




Thrin was equal sixth best fighter in the multiverse as I recall.

Thor, Zeus, Odin, Surtur and Mabelode were the only ones Thrin was wary of facing off against one on one (Outside Overgods and the like naturally).

Vanya *spits* was probably on a par with Thrin. 

I should have never listed to Fergus, "Yeah you can conquer Thyatis...easy." What was I thinking. Even then the be-atch got lucky.


----------



## Alzrius

Fieari said:
			
		

> Well, FLCL (Furi Kuri, Fooly Kooly, whatever they're calling it now) had more powerful characters... Atomsk the Pirate King is an energy being so powerful that he "steals entire star systems."




I haven't had a chance to see FLCL yet, but though it sounds like a great anime, it doesn't sound like anything more powerful. I'm not certain what constitutes "stealing" a star system, but destroying one would certainly be equal or greater effort, and Cell is able to do that in one shot (in his Super Perfect state). Brolli, likewise, destroyed an entire galaxy.



> _He effortlessly defeats war machines that would flatten the entire planet in the final episode, and that fight scene with guitar vs. guitar was awesome... DBZ levels of epicness with none of the simplemindedness._




Any major combative cast member after the initial Saiyan saga in DBZ can effortlessly crush planets, so that's no real mean feat right there. Likewise, anything that condenses that much power into a single episode seems like it would indeed be simpleminded, simply because it underrepresents that level of strength. As I said, DBZ's strong point is the high number of episodes for a single battle.


----------



## Alzrius

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I was just looking at a DBZ site and if we convert Power Ratings into EXP then the very top guys just make it over 1000th-level by the end.
> 
> http://www.myfavoritegames.com/dragonball-z/Info/Dragonball-Z-PowerLevels.htm
> 
> eg. Uub (500,000,000 EXP) = 1000th-level
> 
> eg. Android 20 (5,000,000 EXP) = 100th-level
> 
> Cell ranges from 300th to 500th-level
> 
> Frieza ranges from 32nd-level to 154th-level (Perfect Frieza)




I'll leave out the obligatory mentions of how anything past the Freeza saga is complete fan guestimation (and, truth to tell, some of the power levels prior to then seem to be guestimates too, such as King Cold's power level).   

That said, does "perfect" Freeza mean his final form at 100% power, or him as a cyborg, since he was even more powerful then?

Likewise, though DBGT is nowhere near as good as DB and DBZ, it does push the envelope forward on power levels. Where would you rank Baby (in his multiple developments and possessions), Android Super 17, and the evil Shenrons (particularly Ishenron)?


----------



## Fieari

Well, the point of FLCL isn't the battles, which are basically background material to the show, but it's implied that "Stealing Star Systems" means picking them up, putting them in your pocket, and walking away nonchalantly.


----------



## S'mon

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> What am I...chopped liver!? Have a little faith dude. This is me remember.




Not sure what this is in relation to...


----------



## S'mon

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Vanya *spits* was probably on a par with Thrin.




Well it didn't look like that in the battle (Note to readers: IMC Vanya is a Greater Power & the chief goddess of Mystara's Thyatian Empire, statting her in line with 1e Legends & Lore she had 400 hp) - her 4d10 damage with each Gladius outclassed your 2d12 per longsword; OTOH fighting in her antimagic shell put you at a big disadvantage, it was a classic demonstration of "second mover advantage" among deities, the reason why they avoid messing with each other's territory unless they're ready to face the consequences.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Alzrius mate! 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> I'll leave out the obligatory mentions of how anything past the Freeza saga is complete fan guestimation (and, truth to tell, some of the power levels prior to then seem to be guestimates too, such as King Cold's power level).




Indeed.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> That said, does "perfect" Freeza mean his final form at 100% power, or him as a cyborg, since he was even more powerful then?




Cyborg Frieza = 158th-level (4 levels above 'Perfect')



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Likewise, though DBGT is nowhere near as good as DB and DBZ, it does push the envelope forward on power levels. Where would you rank Baby (in his multiple developments and possessions), Android Super 17, and the evil Shenrons (particularly Ishenron)?




Well that website has no ratings (as yet) for those characters, and since I have (at best) seen about 10% of the 478 episodes I'm probably not the best person to make a judgement. 

However*, looking over the various Sagas I don't think it would be a mistake to suggest that their total Power Levels roughly double each Saga.

* 

So I would suggest the following ranges for those Sagas:

Baby Saga: 1000 to 1500th-level
Super-17 Saga: 1500 to 2000th-level
Evil Shenrons Saga: 2000th to 3000th-level


----------



## -Eä-

Although this will be impossible to play, I think it may be interesting to look at it from a philosophical perspective.


Hmm... So what happens after the Akashic Records? I don't know if metaverse is the correct word here, bur here I go:
Perhaps there will be some new ascension of sorts, jumping from being the highest being in the multiverse to the "lowest being" in the metaverse? Where you look at multiverses as the atoms constructing the metaverse, perhaps?

Maybe there is something of a hierarchy as this: levels are class 1 power ratings, divine ranks are class 2 power ratings, and there may exist some level 3 power rating above that again.

Anyone else having ideas?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi S'mon! 



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> Not sure what this is in relation to...




Trust in me to do the stats justice...I'm quite good at that sort of thing. 



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> Well it didn't look like that in the battle (Note to readers: IMC Vanya is a Greater Power & the chief goddess of Mystara's Thyatian Empire, statting her in line with 1e Legends & Lore she had 400 hp) - her 4d10 damage with each Gladius outclassed your 2d12 per longsword;




Yeah but Thrin had more attacks and a far superior AC (even in Anti-Magic) meaning she wasn't hitting on a 2+. 

She was averaging about 146/round (taking miss chance into consideration), whereas Thrin was averaging about 153/round.



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> OTOH fighting in her antimagic shell put you at a big disadvantage, it was a classic demonstration of "second mover advantage" among deities, the reason why they avoid messing with each other's territory unless they're ready to face the consequences.




Even so Thrin would have defeated her if it wasn't for those meddling kids*!

*ie. those 20th-level heroes who had the affront to attack Thrin and actually score a hit or two - meaning that when Vanya showed up Thrin wasn't at full hit points, giving her the crucial advantage, even then it was a double whammy of her getting a crit and then Thrin missing with one of his attacks (probably hadn't missed an attack roll in about a year before that) which totally opened the door for her 'jammy' win.

The annoyance of it all was that if Thrin had been wearing the Dragonscale Armour (instead of the +5 Full Plate) at the time he would have defeated her easily.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Eä mate! 



			
				-Eä- said:
			
		

> Although this will be impossible to play, I think it may be interesting to look at it from a philosophical perspective.




Might be fun to try. 



			
				-Eä- said:
			
		

> Hmm... So what happens after the Akashic Records?




You get to rewrite the rulebooks. 



			
				-Eä- said:
			
		

> I don't know if metaverse is the correct word here, bur here I go: Perhaps there will be some new ascension of sorts, jumping from being the highest being in the multiverse to the "lowest being" in the metaverse? Where you look at multiverses as the atoms constructing the metaverse, perhaps?
> 
> Maybe there is something of a hierarchy as this: levels are class 1 power ratings, divine ranks are class 2 power ratings, and there may exist some level 3 power rating above that again.
> 
> Anyone else having ideas?




I suppose anything is possible though I have fairly clear cut real world similies of the Supreme Being and Akashic Records in the IH. 

...on a slightly different note...

Also has anyone ever done the following kind of Templates (?):

Baby Template (HD and Ability Scores x1/6)
Child Template (HD and Ability Scores x1/3)
Youth Template (HD and Ability Scores x2/3)


----------



## Ashardalon

All I know of is the Young Magical Beast template in the Monster's Handbook Web Enhancement/Bonus chapter.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Baby Template (HD and Ability Scores x1/6)
> Child Template (HD and Ability Scores x1/3)
> Youth Template (HD and Ability Scores x2/3)




I'm not sure I like those ability score modifiers.  You'd expect a youth, for example, to have full adult Dex but less than 2/3 adult Wis... yes?


----------



## S'mon

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Trust in me to do the stats justice...I'm quite good at that sort of thing.




But I haven't even had a full deity appear in my 3e campaign yet, or settled on deity CRs or what books I'd use, and of course I don't have the IH, so there's no way you could come up with stats that would automatically be what I'd use - I'd need to consider them in line with (a) what sort of stats I wanted, and (b) any pre-existing deity stats I'd used.  Currently if I used deity stats I'd use a conversion from 1e L&L & Manual of the Planes combined with elements from the Epic Level Handbook, I've decided to completely ignore the 3e D&DG ballsup.  Since I use the Gygaxian quasi-hero-demi-lesser progression I don't even have exactly the same low-end progression as you.    So far I have quasi-deities (Baba Yaga) roughly CR 25-29, hero-deities (Vantor & Karzalin) CR 30-34, and demigods (Allase, Serven) probably starting at CR 35 to maybe 39; from my experience with 3e rules in play I'd probably stick with a similar progression from there, ie lesser gods CR 40-44, Greater "Intermediate" CR 45-49 and Greater "Pantheon Head" CR 50-54, which could mean potentially heavily reducing the 1e levels of many deities including Thrin.  Obviously if/when I get the IH I'll absorb it into my considerations but of course there's no guarantee I'll treat it as Holy Writ.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey CR matey (and thanks for the reply Ashardalon mate)! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I'm not sure I like those ability score modifiers.  You'd expect a youth, for example, to have full adult Dex but less than 2/3 adult Wis... yes?




Well I was just throwing some ideas out there. I don't know if I would say full dexterity but certainly I see your point about dex and wis. Maybe Wisdom 1/2 and Dex -2.


----------



## S'mon

If a 'youth' ia ca 15 they'll likely be much more agile than when they're 30, though hand-eye coordination might be slightly lower - I'd give full DEX and -2 Wisdom.  Human males are also less strong before they reach full growth about 21, so -2 STR would be reasonable - females don't show much difference AFAIK.


----------



## CRGreathouse

S'mon said:
			
		

> If a 'youth' ia ca 15 they'll likely be much more agile than when they're 30, though hand-eye coordination might be slightly lower - I'd give full DEX and -2 Wisdom.  Human males are also less strong before they reach full growth about 21, so -2 STR would be reasonable - females don't show much difference AFAIK.




Presuming he's sticking to the 'party line' PH aging guidelines, human adulthood happens at 15 -- so youth would likely be 11-14 or so.


----------



## -Eä-

Do any of you have any experience running sci-"fi" campaigns? 

I am making a new campaign now, starting at year 2594. The idea is that technology has made it possible to make manned flights outside our solar system, but this is extremely expensice, and the characters are the first true explorers to go outside the solar system. I will use the New World of Darkness character creation rules with some modifications as basis. Note that I will allow the characters to discover new technology as they explore further, but for starters I will include the relativistic effect on interstellar travel.
The two major technological achievments for the humans are the following:
 - Fusion, so that energy shortage is avoided
 - Nanotechnology, allowing for total design/redesign on atomic level.

If you have some experience, I would like some advice on new technology and such.

I hope you have no objections for me posting this here /-:


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey S'mon! 



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> But I haven't even had a full deity appear in my 3e campaign yet, or settled on deity CRs or what books I'd use, and of course I don't have the IH, so there's no way you could come up with stats that would automatically be what I'd use




Well, not unless I pretty much had stats for any level of use. 



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> - I'd need to consider them in line with (a) what sort of stats I wanted, and (b) any pre-existing deity stats I'd used.  Currently if I used deity stats I'd use a conversion from 1e L&L & Manual of the Planes combined with elements from the Epic Level Handbook, I've decided to completely ignore the 3e D&DG ballsup.




Understandable.



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> Since I use the Gygaxian quasi-hero-demi-lesser progression I don't even have exactly the same low-end progression as you.




For goodness sake you only have to swop the names hero and quasi around. 



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> So far I have quasi-deities (Baba Yaga) roughly CR 25-29, hero-deities (Vantor & Karzalin) CR 30-34, and demigods (Allase, Serven) probably starting at CR 35 to maybe 39; from my experience with 3e rules in play I'd probably stick with a similar progression from there, ie lesser gods CR 40-44, Greater "Intermediate" CR 45-49 and Greater "Pantheon Head" CR 50-54, which could mean potentially heavily reducing the 1e levels of many deities including Thrin.




Well when you say CR you are more specifically refering to Class Level obviously. 

The two 'Greater' examples above are a bit thin on the levels but even they would not be out of place. I mean level is fairly flexible - 1st Ed. L&L has a massive spread of levels amongst the same tier deities. I mean Quetzalcoatl had about 30 Levels more than anyone else in the book and about 80 more than some of the other Pantheon heads. 

A 25% or less Level difference isn't going to make that much of a power discrepancy since (as I show in the CR/EL doc) x2 CR = +4 EL. In that a character is the equivalent to 4 other characters of half their effective level. A 50% level difference amongst same tier deities will give the more powerful god a +2 EL advantage.



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> Obviously if/when I get the IH I'll absorb it into my considerations but of course there's no guarantee I'll treat it as Holy Writ.




BLASPHEMER!


----------



## Alzrius

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Well that website has no ratings (as yet) for those characters, and since I have (at best) seen about 10% of the 478 episodes I'm probably not the best person to make a judgement.




Just so you know, there are actually 508 episodes altogether (Japanese episodes; several were ignored or folded into other episodes for the American release). _Dragonball_ has 153 episodes, _Dragonball Z_ has 291 episodes, and _Dragonball GT_ has 64 episodes. Check here for more information.


----------



## S'mon

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Well when you say CR you are more specifically refering to Class Level obviously.




I guess trying to stick with Level = CR, which as you've demonstrated makes increasingly less sense at higher levels.  Really my gut preference would be for each deity stage to be about twice as powerful as the one before, ie Lesser twice Demi, Intermed twice Lesser, though of course a war god will lay the smackdown proportionally better than a love god would.  In 3e terms that would mean each deity stage being just +2 CR to the one before though*, which seems incredibly narrow.  I know that IH works to correct this problem, although your CR/EL system in Grim Tales was too intimidatingly technical for me to use.

Taking the lowest deity level (Quasi) as a baseline of CR 25, that'd make Hero CR 27, Demi CR 29, Lesser CR 31, Greater-Intermediate CR 33 and Greater-Pantheon Head CR 35.  That seems reasonable for a Norse-type pantheon, but the Pantheon Head would almost certainly need to have more than 35 character levels to fulfil their functions, even without 'Outsider' levels.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Eä mate! 



			
				-Eä- said:
			
		

> Do any of you have any experience running sci-"fi" campaigns?




Well S'mon has run Star Wars; Traveller; Cyberpunk 2020; Paranoia and probably a few others that I can't recall at the moment.



			
				-Eä- said:
			
		

> I am making a new campaign now, starting at year 2594. The idea is that technology has made it possible to make manned flights outside our solar system, but this is extremely expensice, and the characters are the first true explorers to go outside the solar system. I will use the New World of Darkness character creation rules with some modifications as basis. Note that I will allow the characters to discover new technology as they explore further, but for starters I will include the relativistic effect on interstellar travel.
> The two major technological achievments for the humans are the following:
> - Fusion, so that energy shortage is avoided
> - Nanotechnology, allowing for total design/redesign on atomic level.
> 
> If you have some experience, I would like some advice on new technology and such.




So is that sort of Progress Level 6-7 going by d20 Future? If you haven't already done so download the SRD for that book although just take the weapon damages with a pinch of salt. 



			
				-Eä- said:
			
		

> I hope you have no objections for me posting this here /-:




Of course not dude. Fire away.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Alzrius mate! 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Just so you know, there are actually 508 episodes altogether (Japanese episodes; several were ignored or folded into other episodes for the American release). _Dragonball_ has 153 episodes, _Dragonball Z_ has 291 episodes, and _Dragonball GT_ has 64 episodes. Check here for more information.




Thanks for the link. I knew there were more episodes than I had mentioned but I was just trying to show that my overall knowledge on the subject was limited.


----------



## S'mon

Hi Ea - not sure what your query is re technology?  Your approach will vary depending on how realistic/hard-sf you want the setting to be; so far it sounds like a pretty hard-sf game.


----------



## S'mon

Ea - if you're going for a hard-sf approach you might consider getting hold of GDW's old Fire Fusion & Steel supplement for Traveller The New Era - it's very technical but does a good job of discussing & statting realistic or at least plausible future technologies, and ways to design stuff from the ground up.  Their Planet Tamer's Handbook I hear was very good for planet-related stuff, also.  And the planet-generation system from any edition of Traveller (inc the d20 one) is easy to use and pretty nice for any moderately hard-sf game; at any rate the physical characteristics part, it doesn't really link physical characteristics to population size though so you can get a lot of implausible high-population vacuum worlds, but that's easily rectified.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey S'mon! 



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> I guess trying to stick with Level = CR, which as you've demonstrated makes increasingly less sense at higher levels.




Exactly.



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> Really my gut preference would be for each deity stage to be about twice as powerful as the one before, ie Lesser twice Demi, Intermed twice Lesser,




Which is exactly how its set out in the Immortals Handbook...going by 'average' levels that is.



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> though of course a war god will lay the smackdown proportionally better than a love god would.




Some deities will be physically tougher others more magically potent.



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> In 3e terms that would mean each deity stage being just +2 CR to the one before though*, which seems incredibly narrow.




Narrow for the official rules yes. But not for what constitutes 'proper' CR.



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> I know that IH works to correct this problem, although your CR/EL system in Grim Tales was too intimidatingly technical for me to use.




Well all you really have to remember is:

x1.5 CR = EL +2
x2 CR = EL +4

eg. Party of x4 CR 20 characters = 1 CR 40, or x2 CR 30. So a moderate challenge would be a single CR 20 opponent. A Tough challenge* would be a single CR 30 opponent

*By WotC standards what should really be a moderate challenge is a tough challenge.

x2 opponents = EL +2
x4 opponents = EL +4
x8 opponents = EL +6
x16 opponents = EL +8 

I'm actually working on a reversed system (whereby EL stays the same and CR is modified) which may be easier to implement.



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> Taking the lowest deity level (Quasi) as a baseline of CR 25, that'd make Hero CR 27, Demi CR 29, Lesser CR 31, Greater-Intermediate CR 33 and Greater-Pantheon Head CR 35.  That seems reasonable for a Norse-type pantheon, but the Pantheon Head would almost certainly need to have more than 35 character levels to fulfil their functions, even without 'Outsider' levels.




Well I don't necessarily use Outsider Hit Dice unless its for Demons, Devils etc.


----------



## -Eä-

S'mon said:
			
		

> Ea - if you're going for a hard-sf approach you might consider getting hold of GDW's old Fire Fusion & Steel supplement for Traveller The New Era - it's very technical but does a good job of discussing & statting realistic or at least plausible future technologies, and ways to design stuff from the ground up.  Their Planet Tamer's Handbook I hear was very good for planet-related stuff, also.  And the planet-generation system from any edition of Traveller (inc the d20 one) is easy to use and pretty nice for any moderately hard-sf game; at any rate the physical characteristics part, it doesn't really link physical characteristics to population size though so you can get a lot of implausible high-population vacuum worlds, but that's easily rectified.





Thanks..will look into it.

I am trying to make my game rather realistic using our own physics as starting point. While I certainly have some ideas myself, I certainly will benefit from others' experiences.


----------



## S'mon

I'd definitely say Traveller was your friend  - You might like to look into Classic Traveller, Tne New Era maybe goes overboard on the simulated-realism, most people aren't going to want to have to track the bingo point on their ship's fuel reserves (though a realistic space CRPG could be great)


----------



## Zoatebix

This is pretty cool: http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=51917

I thought U_K might want to take a look, at least. 
-George


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Zoatebix mate! 



			
				Zoatebix said:
			
		

> This is pretty cool: http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=51917
> 
> I thought U_K might want to take a look, at least.
> -George




Thanks for the link. I think I have seen that before. Its a great effort from the Jester, although there are a number of points I disagree with (such as the idea that EXP alone* will give you divinity).

*and yes I know there are prereqs but they seem an indirect consequence.

Nevertheless though, commendable. At least, unlike WotCs effort it gives you a method of becoming immortal.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi all! 

Just a quick note that I updated the Godzilla and King Ghidorah stats, with some extra comments on the Godzilla page about Megasaurs.

However, I specifically wanted to ask people if they wanted to see the Monster List for the Bestiary or if they would rather just wait and be surprised? I don't really like the idea of spoiling the surprise for people but I am tempted to post the list just to give you all something to chew on. Any comments?


----------



## Knight Otu

Well, if you don't want to spoil surprises with the list, but want to give us something to chew on... you can give us something else.


----------



## Fieari

When reading fiction, I hate to be surprised.  When playing a game, before I buy it I will often go ahead and look it up on gamefaqs to read the manual first (best way to see if a game is fun or not is to look at the fan-made guides).  The monster list would be the equivelent of the 2nd, not the 1st.  I say post it.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi all! 

I'll post the Monster List sometime later today. 

One question though. Do people prefer primarily common or esoteric names for their monsters.

eg. Demon would be a common name while Tanar'ri would be an esoteric name. 

eg. Hagunemnon would be an esoteric name while Protean would be a common name.

My own opinion is when dealing with subtypes put the common name first, but when dealing with individual monsters have the esoteric name first.

Does that make sense to people?


----------



## Verequus

Yes, it does make sense - and I like it, too.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I'll post the Monster List sometime later today.
> 
> One question though. Do people prefer primarily common or esoteric names for their monsters.
> 
> eg. Demon would be a common name while Tanar'ri would be an esoteric name.
> 
> eg. Hagunemnon would be an esoteric name while Protean would be a common name.




I always prefer common names.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey guys thanks for the replies. 



			
				RuleMaster said:
			
		

> Yes, it does make sense - and I like it, too.




I was only following what seems like 3rd edition convention. 

Personally I would have liked to have all the names esoteric first, but we can see in the Monster Manual that Angel, Demon, and Devil are prefered. Also with Baatezu, Slaad, Tanar'ri and Yugoloth absent from the OGL I'd be in a bit of fix trying to keep the subtypes esoteric. 

I think everyone liked my Slaad alternative (Brood) last time I mentioned it. With Brood being to Slaad what Demon is to Tanar'ri of course. Only one Brood/Slaad in this Bestiary, but potentially half a dozen penciled in for next time...although any such list is proprietry at this stage.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I always prefer common names.




Personally I like both, thats why I have included both where applicable (obviously Dragons, Golems and so forth don't have esoteric names).

However, do you see the logic in putting the esoteric names first for individual monsters?


By the way I'll also be adding the Monsters by Type (and Subtype) a little later as well as just the alphabetical list.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Personally I like both, thats why I have included both where applicable (obviously Dragons, Golems and so forth don't have esoteric names).
> 
> However, do you see the logic in putting the esoteric names first for individual monsters?




I like to have esoteric names, but I don't like them in the name entries.  I like them in the descriptions.

I suppose I see some form of logic in using esoteric names to alphebetize the individual monsters, but I don't have to like it.


----------



## Zoatebix

I think I'm going to chime in with CRGreathouse - common, or even descriptive, names are much more useful - easier to read and reference - than esoteric names. I'd rather see the esoteria in the descriptive text or after a comma in the monster's name.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi guys! 

Okay, I tell you what have a look the list (which should be online now) and let me know what you think (about both the naming convention and the monsters themselves).

Incidently, there are two still not on the list (because I am still deciding the final names), and about half a dozen monsters don't have common names yet (likewise because I am still deciding what suits them best).

I'll add the 'By Type' list tomorrow, its late and I have been a bit tired today.

Finally (only a small note), I found the character sheet for Thrin so the Magic Items list is there, although all the special abilities for the unique items must be on another sheet so I'll update that ASAP.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Okay, I tell you what have a look the list (which should be online now) and let me know what you think (about both the naming convention and the monsters themselves).
> 
> Incidently, there are two still not on the list (because I am still deciding the final names), and about half a dozen monsters don't have common names yet (likewise because I am still deciding what suits them best).




The monsters look interesting.  I'm particularly curious about the Intelligibles and the mechanics you chose for the Quintessence (Elemental).  Are you going to put a CR list up, or should we just wait for the PDF?

Is the CR range "20-2000" using your CR system, or the WotC system?

I see 6 creatures I know I won't use (inappropriate for my setting; pity because some look neat), as well as at least 5 more that go by the same name as a creature I already have IMC (and will have to ignore yours, replace the existing creature with your version, or rename your version).  This still leaves a pretty good %age, assuming they're as good as you say they are.


----------



## Angel Tarragon

I know I'll be purchasing the book in print. I wasn't considering buying any of the PDFs, but if I only purchase one PDF it will definetly be the Bestiary! I'm really looking forward to at least a bestiary teaser. The names of these critters and templates has got me pumped. I can't wait!


----------



## Anabstercorian

I Want To Buy Your Product From You


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey CRGreathouse mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> The monsters look interesting.




Thanks. Obviously the names alone don't really do them justice, I think the best aspects are the abilities. I noticed in the ELH there were only about a dozen new abilities we had never seen before spread amongst the monsters (with the Phane getting a handful). But I made a conscious effort to have unique ideas for every monster entry.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I'm particularly curious about the Intelligibles and the mechanics you chose for the Quintessence (Elemental).








			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Are you going to put a CR list up, or should we just wait for the PDF?




I'll put a CR list up slightly before the release.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Is the CR range "20-2000" using your CR system, or the WotC system?




Using WotCs system...I didn't really want to scare people by starting the list at (a revised) CR 31.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I see 6 creatures I know I won't use (inappropriate for my setting; pity because some look neat),




Which ones? The Angels?



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> as well as at least 5 more that go by the same name as a creature I already have IMC (and will have to ignore yours, replace the existing creature with your version, or rename your version).




I presume these would be the likes of Asmodeus and the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse?

I sort of wanted to have something familiar in there to give people a guideline.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> This still leaves a pretty good %age, assuming they're as good as you say they are.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Guys! 



			
				Frukathka said:
			
		

> I know I'll be purchasing the book in print. I wasn't considering buying any of the PDFs, but if I only purchase one PDF it will definetly be the Bestiary! I'm really looking forward to at least a bestiary teaser. The names of these critters and templates has got me pumped. I can't wait!






			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> I Want To Buy Your Product From You.




I appreciate the love guys.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Using WotCs system...I didn't really want to scare people by starting the list at (a revised) CR 31.




Thanks, I appreciate that; I know WotC's system pretty well, and it 'registers' for me.

Good communication is important.



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Which ones [will CRGreathouse not use]? The Angels?




Golems don't exist in my world, so that's 5 right off the bat; I almost never use oozes as creatures (as opposed to hazards), so the Prismatic Pudding seems unlikely to see the light of my world's day.



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I presume these [creatures that CRGreathouse already uses] would be the likes of Asmodeus and the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse?
> 
> I sort of wanted to have something familiar in there to give people a guideline.




I use malakim, cherubim/"kerubim", ophanim, seraphim, and gregori from Sean Reynolds' _Anger of Angels_.

I don't use the whole WotC diobolic/demonic collection including Asmodeus, but using your stats for a powerful unique devil will be easy enough.


----------



## Knight Otu

I see that you are back to using the name Cosmocrat?


----------



## Fieari

Bestiary looks great.  Looking forewards to seeing Cherabim that live up to the source material.  But most of all, I'm really hoping that the "Fall 2004" release date remains accurate.


----------



## Zoatebix

Oh.  My.  God.

That's one heck of a creature list.  So where do I sign up?  You know, to buy one.


----------



## Anabstercorian

I was going to ask a big confusing question about all the monsters.

But then I decided to say that

*YOUR CHOICE IS STILL CLEAR*

If you write it we will buy!


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi CRGreathouse mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Thanks, I appreciate that; I know WotC's system pretty well, and it 'registers' for me.
> 
> Good communication is important.








			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Golems don't exist in my world, so that's 5 right off the bat; I almost never use oozes as creatures (as opposed to hazards), so the Prismatic Pudding seems unlikely to see the light of my world's day.




Well you could have warned me! Didn't see any of that coming. 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I use malakim, cherubim/"kerubim", ophanim, seraphim, and gregori from Sean Reynolds' _Anger of Angels_.




I don't (as yet) have that supplement - though I am of course interested in the material.

Franky though I don't jive with this whole Divine Rank 0 glass ceiling for Demon Lords, Archdevils or in this case ArchAngels. I can see why Sean designed them that way (for non-epic material) but frankly it does nothing for me and I dislike this whole 'powerful outsiders automatically serve the gods' baloney which you are forced to instigate as a result. 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I don't use the whole WotC diobolic/demonic collection including Asmodeus, but using your stats for a powerful unique devil will be easy enough.




My interpretation isn't exactly your standard 'D&D' Asmodeus anyway.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Knight Otu mate! 



			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> I see that you are back to using the name Cosmocrat?




I thought you would notice that, Chronocrat(er) was okay but didn't make any sense (Time Builder) when translated.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Fieari mate! 



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> Bestiary looks great. Looking forewards to seeing Cherabim that live up to the source material.




Do you mean the 133 HD 'Kerubim'? 



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> But most of all, I'm really hoping that the "Fall 2004" release date remains accurate.




Absolutely.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Howdy Zoatebix matey! 



			
				Zoatebix said:
			
		

> Oh.  My.  God.
> 
> That's one heck of a creature list.




Thanks, but remember there are still two others to be added to that list.



			
				Zoatebix said:
			
		

> So where do I sign up?  You know, to buy one.




Just keep your money a few weeks longer and I'll be ready.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> I was going to ask a big confusing question about all the monsters.




Ask away mate. Your question may indirectly help me, and I always welcome feedback (even that of the pre release variety).



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> But then I decided to say that
> 
> *YOUR CHOICE IS STILL CLEAR*
> 
> If you write it we will buy!




I'm writing, I'm writing.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I don't (as yet) have that supplement - though I am of course interested in the material.
> 
> Franky though I don't jive with this whole Divine Rank 0 glass ceiling for Demon Lords, Archdevils or in this case ArchAngels. I can see why Sean designed them that way (for non-epic material) but frankly it does nothing for me and I dislike this whole 'powerful outsiders automatically serve the gods' baloney which you are forced to instigate as a result.




I don't mind Sean's take, because (as he says in _AoA_) you can just add lots of class levels.

While I've read over _Anger of Angels_, I can't yet recommend it as I haven't used too much of it in my campaign.  We're testing out one of the races now with a PC angel (a grigori).



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> My interpretation isn't exactly your standard 'D&D' Asmodeus anyway.




I'm certain that yours will be much more interesting, and much better statted.  Unfortunately, IMNSHO, this says less about you and more about WotC....


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi CR matey! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I don't mind Sean's take, because (as he says in _AoA_) you can just add lots of class levels.




Does he attempt to present any sort of Angelic cosmology not beholden to 'gods' though?



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> While I've read over _Anger of Angels_, I can't yet recommend it as I haven't used too much of it in my campaign.  We're testing out one of the races now with a PC angel (a grigori).




Looking at my take on the Grigori they ended up a bit more like the Marvel Watchers than I had wanted, but it all fits very nicely.

Another potential interesting PC race are the Lerneans. 

Both have been a bit of a bugger to rate effectively (you'll see what I mean eventually).



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I'm certain that yours will be much more interesting, and much better statted.  Unfortunately, IMNSHO, this says less about you and more about WotC....




Well I'll still take that as a compliment.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Does he attempt to present any sort of Angelic cosmology not beholden to 'gods' though?




_AoA_ presents two types of angels: "bound" angels (servants of a particular god) and "free" angels (not servants of any god).


----------



## Alzrius

CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> _AoA_ presents two types of angels: "bound" angels (servants of a particular god) and "free" angels (not servants of any god).




To be perfectly fair, Sean's design for _Anger of Angels_ was around Judeo-Christian mythology; that there is one supreme deity that made everything, angels included. So it's kind of hard for the product to present a deity-free hierarchy. It does try somewhat, however, having some means for other gods to exist (mostly evil ones), and why angels (and devils) wouldn't serve any particular deity.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi guys! 

Indirectly I use the one god approach myself. For me the problem is one of scale, which is something Sean Reynolds doesn't really have to address when hes specifically catering for a non-epic/immortal campaign. He could just say his one god is a Greater Deity DvR 20 or even an Overgod and leave it at that.

Whereas as I look at it and see that a Solar is 'this' powerful and the Supreme Being is 'that' powerful, then ask yourself what exists in between.

You might be able to get away with the Angels as written (and leave it at that) if your one God was merely a Greater Power and you only used the one deity. However D&D is generally polytheistic with multiple Greater Gods and one such God couldn't have created multiple deities as powerful as itself (or even close to that power).

Also researching the Angels you will find many of the descriptions and powers truly epic in scale, so its a stretch to dumb them down in power so much.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> For me the problem is one of scale, which is something Sean Reynolds doesn't really have to address when hes specifically catering for a non-epic/immortal campaign. He could just say his one god is a Greater Deity DvR 20 or even an Overgod and leave it at that.
> 
> Whereas as I look at it and see that a Solar is 'this' powerful and the Supreme Being is 'that' powerful, then ask yourself what exists in between.




Sean assumes the typical polytheistic D&D-style pantheon, even while working off of source material that is monotheistic.  There are many references to "the gods" throught _AoA_.

He isn't writing a gods sourcebook, though, and makes no attempts to quantify the power of the gods themselves -- nor should he, as it is well beyond the scope of his work.



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Also researching the Angels you will find many of the descriptions and powers truly epic in scale, so its a stretch to dumb them down in power so much.




Care to drop some quick examples?  Frankly, I don't see how this 'proves' anything; the angels could simply have enough class levels to have taken a feat/class/prestige class/etc. that grants any abilty you care to name.


----------



## Anabstercorian

Something about them setting the stars and planets in the firmament and their orbits, I think.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Sean assumes the typical polytheistic D&D-style pantheon, even while working off of source material that is monotheistic.  There are many references to "the gods" throught _AoA_.
> 
> He isn't writing a gods sourcebook, though, and makes no attempts to quantify the power of the gods themselves -- nor should he, as it is well beyond the scope of his work.




Indeed, which is why I would never criticise such a product for what it is.

I simply iterated that it does nothing for epic/immortal campaigns which the higher angelic ranks easily belong to. Therefore Sean (and I am sure he would admit it) dumbed them down for effectively non-epic campaigns.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Care to drop some quick examples?




Well I don't need to. If you own AoA read the Metatron entry which (if its the same as the preview on Monte's site?) relates some of the more esoteric aspects of the angels; though Sean covers this up with "but this may be because of some unusual perception-confusing ability he possesses".



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Frankly, I don't see how this 'proves' anything;




Well it proves that he reduced the angels in power to fit within the constraints of a non-epic campaign. Whereas I am trying to do justice to the esoteric descriptions.

No big deal though, both approaches are valid, who is to say that Angels are one thing and not the other. 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> the angels could simply have enough class levels to have taken a feat/class/prestige class/etc. that grants any ability you care to name.




Any ability 'I' care to mention...I think not my friend.   

How about Omnipotence?


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Any ability 'I' care to mention...I think not my friend.
> 
> How about Omnipotence?




I think that "feat/class/prestige class/etc." can easily include divine/cosmic/omnific gifts, turning your comment right back around.


----------



## Alzrius

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Indirectly I use the one god approach myself. For me the problem is one of scale, which is something Sean Reynolds doesn't really have to address when hes specifically catering for a non-epic/immortal campaign. He could just say his one god is a Greater Deity DvR 20 or even an Overgod and leave it at that.




As CRGreathouse said, Sean doesn't try to quantify other gods against God, but he makes some (somewhat) ambiguous notes about them. One of the most interesting parts of the book, for me, was when he talked about where evil gods came from. "Evil gods appeared, either forming themselves out of the darkness of Hell, splintering into independence from dark thoughts from God himself, or visiting from other realms." The idea that God was unable to stop himself from making evil gods, or that said evil gods came from some place beyond God's reach, is very interesting to me, as it seems to indicate limits on an otherwise limitless power.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi CRGreathouse mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I think that "feat/class/prestige class/etc." can easily include divine/cosmic/omnific gifts, turning your comment right back around.




'Easily'!?   

Notwithstanding the design philosophy implications.

Any being that has class levels is (by definition) an individual.

How many monsters in the Monster Manual have class levels*...effectively none (except individual examples).

*Not counting intrinsic spellcasting levels.

You simply cannot design 'creatures/races' like that. 

If a Seraphim is a titanic dragon with four heads and six wings, you can't just say its an Astral Deva with some Prestige Class Levels (even if those Prestige Classes made it dragon-like and granted multiple heads and extra sets of wings). Its a race, not a career.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Alzrius mate! 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> As CRGreathouse said, Sean doesn't try to quantify other gods against God, but he makes some (somewhat) ambiguous notes about them. One of the most interesting parts of the book, for me, was when he talked about where evil gods came from. "Evil gods appeared, either forming themselves out of the darkness of Hell, splintering into independence from dark thoughts from God himself, or visiting from other realms." The idea that God was unable to stop himself from making evil gods, or that said evil gods came from some place beyond God's reach, is very interesting to me, as it seems to indicate limits on an otherwise limitless power.




Sean is very well versed in esoteric lore. I have seen comments in a similar vein numerous times within occult literature.

Evil was created because of an architectural imbalance in the cosmos...ostensibly you can't have light without darkness.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Any being that has class levels is (by definition) an individual.
> 
> How many monsters in the Monster Manual have class levels*...effectively none (except individual examples).




I'll take an example from my world, my own (heavily modified) LeShay.  There are perhaps two dozen LeShay, only one of which has made itself known on the world.  All of the LeShay have class levels... my base LeShay is only around CR 16, but the weakest of the LeShay are still in the 30s.  The 'deafult' CR 16 LeShay doesn't exist anywhere.

Instead, the real default LeShay is, say, a LeShay Wiz30/Arcane Archer15, or something similar; it's what you'd expect if you met a random member of the race.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi CRGreathouse matey! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I'll take an example from my world, my own (heavily modified) LeShay.  There are perhaps two dozen LeShay, only one of which has made itself known on the world.  All of the LeShay have class levels... my base LeShay is only around CR 16, but the weakest of the LeShay are still in the 30s.  The 'deafult' CR 16 LeShay doesn't exist anywhere.
> 
> Instead, the real default LeShay is, say, a LeShay Wiz30/Arcane Archer15, or something similar; it's what you'd expect if you met a random member of the race.




Thats certainly a possible approach, but you yourself still define a default LeShay even if you do not actually use one...its still written down for you.

Your Leshay may be 'x+y' (where 'y' is class levels), but you still have to define 'x'.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Thats certainly a possible approach, but you yourself still define a default LeShay even if you do not actually use one...its still written down for you.
> 
> Your Leshay may be 'x+y' (where 'y' is class levels), but you still have to define 'x'.




Sure I have a default LeShay, I'm just saying that it doesn't much matter since none exist.

Congrats, by the way, on getting 1000 posts on this thread!


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Sure I have a default LeShay, I'm just saying that it doesn't much matter since none exist.




Thats the choice of your campaign though, that cannot be a default decision though. You can't have the stats for a race and force class levels on them (for individuals yes, but not races). Thats like saying you can only have elves if they start as 7th-level Wizards. If such as these were automatically 7th-level Wizards then they would have integrated levels as with Dragons for instance.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Congrats, by the way, on getting 1000 posts on this thread!




He he! Thanks! 

Slightly embarrassing in that I still don't have the darn thing finished yet but since this thread was started I have got the website up and the Bestiary is taking shape nicely.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Thats the choice of your campaign though, that cannot be a default decision though. You can't have the stats for a race and force class levels on them (for individuals yes, but not races). Thats like saying you can only have elves if they start as 7th-level Wizards. If such as these were automatically 7th-level Wizards then they would have integrated levels as with Dragons for instance.




No, it's more like saying that no more elves are born and all existing members have at least 7 wizard levels.  It's quite possible when dealing with races with very few members.



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Slightly embarrassing in that I still don't have the darn thing finished yet but since this thread was started I have got the website up and the Bestiary is taking shape nicely.




Frankly, about 9 months ago I figured it would take you until roughly my birthday (mid-late October) to get the Apotheosis PDF out, and it seems that wasn't too far off* -- except it will be the Beastiary instead of Apotheosis to come out first.

* Here's to hoping.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> No, it's more like saying that no more elves are born and all existing members have at least 7 wizard levels.  It's quite possible when dealing with races with very few members.




But you understand why, for the purposes of presenting a generic race (rather than individuals), you can't outline them like that...don't you?



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Frankly, about 9 months ago I figured it would take you until roughly my birthday (mid-late October) to get the Apotheosis PDF out, and it seems that wasn't too far off* -- except it will be the Beastiary instead of Apotheosis to come out first.
> 
> * Here's to hoping.




Funnily enough I actually remember you saying that and I thought by now I'd even have the print version ready.


----------



## Baronovan

*Lookin forward*

Hey, UK!

Just wanted to drop by and say I'm looking forward to the Bestiary, especially that (WotC) CR 2000 critter. Ouch.

Two questions for ya: how much are the PDF installments going to cost, and can you give us any information on the preferred method of payment? Paypal?

Well, good luck keeping all your ducks in a row and drop by Dicefreaks and let us know how things are going!

-Baronovan (Fëanor @ DF)


----------



## Upper_Krust

Baronovan said:
			
		

> Hey, UK!




Hey Fëanor matey! 

Or Baranovan if you prefer. 



			
				Baronovan said:
			
		

> Just wanted to drop by and say I'm looking forward to the Bestiary, especially that (WotC) CR 2000 critter. Ouch.




Thanks. 



			
				Baronovan said:
			
		

> Two questions for ya: how much are the PDF installments going to cost,




Well the bestiary is gonna cost about $9.



			
				Baronovan said:
			
		

> and can you give us any information on the preferred method of payment? Paypal?




Whatever method sites like RPGnow have in place at the moment.



			
				Baronovan said:
			
		

> Well, good luck keeping all your ducks in a row and drop by Dicefreaks and let us know how things are going!




I will - appreciate the support mate.


----------



## historian

Hey Krust! 

 

Hope all is well and thanks for posting the Bestiary list.  

You've done a nice job with naming your creatures -- I wish my etymology were stronger but I'm thinking it won't be too difficult to trace the name to the derivative concept (particularly when the bestiary is available).

It looks like a job well done with each creature having a good bit of flavor (not to start a separate rant but I hate it when mosters are commodotized).

I was also glad to see Thanatos (of course) and like that you've affiliated him (it) with the Four Horseman.  

I'm also wondering which one of these is the CR 2000 beast?!  

A couple of quick questions:

You've differentiated between a Supreme Being and Akashic Record previously.  Will either have stats?  Will their powers and abilities be derived from the omnific list or be unique in nature?

Would you still place IG Thanos around CR 4000?  Would IG Thanos be closer to High/Time Lord or to a Supreme Being?

Thanks in advance.


----------



## Upper_Krust

historian said:
			
		

> Hey Krust!




Howdy historian mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Hope all is well and thanks for posting the Bestiary list.




Well, my pleasure. Remember thats not the full list (there are two others going on there) and I may change one or two creatures or names before the final release but thats pretty much 'the' list.  



			
				historian said:
			
		

> You've done a nice job with naming your creatures




I dunno, I think I may change the esoteric names of the various Umbrals (for a reason that I'll divulge at a later time) and perhaps one or two others. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> -- I wish my etymology were stronger but I'm thinking it won't be too difficult to trace the name to the derivative concept (particularly when the bestiary is available).




Absolutely.

I also noticed that some other d20 companies had already released monsters with the same names (Kulshedra for instance).

Also I may remove Asmodeus from the list and just have him on the website instead - that way I can do a version of the core Asmodeus without stepping on peoples toes.

In place of Asmodeus I have been considering using Ancient Baatorians (likely under the 'common' name Ancient Ones).



			
				historian said:
			
		

> It looks like a job well done with each creature having a good bit of flavor (not to start a separate rant but I hate it when mosters are commodotized).




Well I am trying to give as much of everything as possible. The Angels, Intelligibles and Umbrals all have a seperate 'introduction' page explaining more about them. 

I'm sort of in two minds about including the Cosmocrat without the other ranks of Inevitables. I prefer having all types under one roof as it were, and I have five other Inevitables pencilled in for a later product.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I was also glad to see Thanatos (of course) and like that you've affiliated him (it) with the Four Horseman.




Indeed.  



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I'm also wondering which one of these is the CR 2000 beast?!




Of course you are. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> A couple of quick questions:




Fire away.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> You've differentiated between a Supreme Being and Akashic Record previously.  Will either have stats?




Technically you could conceivably stat the Supreme Being, but not the Akashic records. While the Akashic Records are truly infinite the Supreme Being is simply the most powerful being in existence...theres a bit more to it than that but you get the general idea.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Will their powers and abilities be derived from the omnific list or be unique in nature?




Sort of depends on the DM, and where they set their own ceiling.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Would you still place IG Thanos around CR 4000?




Might even be less than that. Somewhere between 724 and 11,584. It sort of depends which way you factor the multipliers. At the moment 5792 is my best guess.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Would IG Thanos be closer to High/Time Lord or to a Supreme Being?




IG Thanos would be akin to a weak Time Lord.

HOU Thanos would (debateably*) be akin to the Supreme Being.

*If his supremacy was metaversal that is.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Thanks in advance.




Anytime mate.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I'm sort of in two minds about including the Cosmocrat without the other ranks of Inevitables. I prefer having all types under one roof as it were, and I have five other Inevitables pencilled in for a later product.




Maybe you could drop some other things for the other Inevitables?  Or just bump up the pricetag to $10 and include the other 5?


----------



## Zoatebix

Do with us what you will, though I'd _love_ to see more inevitables if you've got them.  CRG's ideas are good...

-George


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi CRGreathouse mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Maybe you could drop some other things for the other Inevitables?  Or just bump up the pricetag to $10 and include the other 5?




I'm not sure I really want to concentrate on more than three of the dimensional factions (Angels, Intelligibles and Umbrals in this case). I like to leave some for next time. I think I have to draw the line somewhere, something I haven't done in the past hence (in part) the delays. I think theres a fairly good spread in there already and I have some 45 (now) pencilled in for a second bestiary (for after the full IH release).

After the first bestiary I can listen to feedback and hear what people like and dislike, or want to see, and design the second bestiary accordingly.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Zoatebix mate! 



			
				Zoatebix said:
			
		

> Do with us what you will, though I'd _love_ to see more inevitables if you've got them.  CRG's ideas are good...




Well I am sure they will surface inevitably*, if not in this bestiary then the next. At the moment I only really have the Cosmocrat designed, with outlines and ideas for the others.

*Couldn't resist.


----------



## Baronovan

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hey Fëanor matey!
> 
> Or Baranovan if you prefer.




Baronovan is fine, really. "Fëanor" ended up seeming a rather silly name considering all the work I've done on Middle-earth over at DF. Statting one's namesake... can perturb the mind. 



> Thanks.




Oh, no problem. 



> Well the bestiary is gonna cost about $9.




Sounds good. I'm looking forward to your interpretation of some of the creature concepts you put up on your site.



> I will - appreciate the support mate.




Always.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Well I am sure they will surface inevitably*, if not in this bestiary then the next. At the moment I only really have the Cosmocrat designed, with outlines and ideas for the others.
> 
> *Couldn't resist.




I would like to see the Cosmocrat in the Beastiary, though, if you can manage.


----------



## Nifelhein

Hi UK!!!

I am eager to get this and I was surfing Mongoose's website and saw an immortal's handbook there, not yet released... i it yours? I know that you were not saying who was going to release the print form before time allowed, but if it is them, then they have already done so...

Cheers,

Nif.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Baronovan mate! 



			
				Baronovan said:
			
		

> Baronovan is fine, really. "Fëanor" ended up seeming a rather silly name considering all the work I've done on Middle-earth over at DF. Statting one's namesake... can perturb the mind.




I prefer Baronovan if only because I can type that without having to copy the 'ë' which isn't on my computer.



			
				Baronovan said:
			
		

> Sounds good. I'm looking forward to your interpretation of some of the creature concepts you put up on your site.




Hey thanks.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I would like to see the Cosmocrat in the Beastiary, though, if you can manage.




So you would rather see one Inevitable detailed on its own rather than have them all at the same time at a later date?


----------



## Knight Otu

You will not dare to drop the Cosmocrats from the Bestiary!

 *hands Anabstercorian a bigger chainsaw*


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> So you would rather see one Inevitable detailed on its own rather than have them all at the same time at a later date?




Correct.  I'd like to see the others eventually, but it's more important to see the Cosmocrat in the Beastiary.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Nifelhein said:
			
		

> Hi UK!!!




Hey Nifelhein! 



			
				Nifelhein said:
			
		

> I am eager to get this and I was surfing Mongoose's website and saw an immortal's handbook there, not yet released... i it yours? I know that you were not saying who was going to release the print form before time allowed, but if it is them, then they have already done so...




The Mongoose book (Book of Immortals) is not mine (Immortals Handbook).

It looks very interesting (I'll definately be buying it). Although from the copy on Mongoose website they seem to suggest immortals are somewhere between mortals and gods, rather than actual gods. So it'll be curious to see what they are 'playing at'.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey guys! 



			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> You will not dare to drop the Cosmocrats from the Bestiary!
> 
> *hands Anabstercorian a bigger chainsaw*






			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Correct. I'd like to see the others eventually, but it's more important to see the Cosmocrat in the Beastiary.




Okay, okay. Cosmocrat stays. I hear and obey.


----------



## historian

Hey Krust!  



> Also I may remove Asmodeus from the list and just have him on the website instead - that way I can do a version of the core Asmodeus without stepping on peoples toes.
> 
> In place of Asmodeus I have been considering using Ancient Baatorians (likely under the 'common' name Ancient Ones).




Not a bad idea in my estimation.  The only Ancient Baatorian that I know of offhand is Asmodeus, would Beelzebub also qualify?

I'm also in favor of (but only if manageable) putting up "sneak peeks" on the website.  I particularly enjoyed Godzilla (a real beast) and the tarrasque which have fans ogling over what the CR 2000 (or 3000 by the U_K scale) creature would look like.



> [IG Thanos] Might even be less than that [CR 4000]. Somewhere between 724 and 11,584. It sort of depends which way you factor the multipliers. At the moment 5792 is my best guess.




 FWIW I think 5792 sounds about right.  At CR 724, IG Thanos would "only" be about 12-15 times as powerful as regular Thanos (no slouch BTW).  Anecdotally, I would say that the IG pushed him well beyond that.  

I also like where you have HOU Thanos (more along the lines of -- maybe -- being a Supreme Being rather than an Akashic Record).


----------



## Upper_Krust

historian said:
			
		

> Hey Krust!




Hiya mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Not a bad idea in my estimation. The only Ancient Baatorian that I know of offhand is Asmodeus, would Beelzebub also qualify?




I wouldn't even put Asmodeus in that group.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I'm also in favor of (but only if manageable) putting up "sneak peeks" on the website.  I particularly enjoyed Godzilla (a real beast) and the tarrasque which have fans ogling over what the CR 2000 (or 3000 by the U_K scale) creature would look like.




Yeah sorry about the lack of updates but when you are concentrating on one thing its distracting to have to take time off for another. I think after I have the first pdf out I will be able to relax more and get more articles added to the website.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> FWIW I think 5792 sounds about right.  At CR 724, IG Thanos would "only" be about 12-15 times as powerful as regular Thanos (no slouch BTW). Anecdotally, I would say that the IG pushed him well beyond that.




Good point. Rating everyone he defeated and we can easily say hes beyond CR 724.  



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I also like where you have HOU Thanos (more along the lines of -- maybe -- being a Supreme Being rather than an Akashic Record).


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Also I may remove Asmodeus from the list and just have him on the website instead - that way I can do a version of the core Asmodeus without stepping on peoples toes.
> 
> In place of Asmodeus I have been considering using Ancient Baatorians (likely under the 'common' name Ancient Ones).




I'll echo historian here -- this sounds like a good idea.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi all! 

I posted this over at dicefreaks, I thought it might interest some of you Dragonball fans.

By the way thanks for the feedback CRGreathouse dude! 

***



			
				Mirtek said:
			
		

> You can't even closely accurate capture DBZ in D20 stats.




Never say never Mirtek mate! 



			
				Mirtek said:
			
		

> At the beginning of the Sayan Saga, Nappa and Vegeta casually destroyed an entire planet, each pointing a single hand at it and firing a beam.
> 
> If they could destroy a whole planet (how much damages does this take in D20?)




Extrapolating d20 Modern (Low Physical Factor) 

approx...4 Exatons (shatter Earth sized planet) = 23,040d6 (average 80,640)



			
				Mirtek said:
			
		

> at power level 4,000 and 18,000, then what can they do at X,000,000,000,[...]




Well assuming their energy blasts can do 1d6 per power level point and their physical attacks in the region of 1 point per power level point (before strength). They could do some ridiculous damage, certainly blowing up any individual celestial body though I am wondering if we ever see at any point a galaxy is ever destroyed or a star blown up?

By my (rough) calculations:

276,552 d6 (967,932) to destroy Earth's Sun.

26,548,992 d6 (92,921,472) to destroy the Milky Way Galaxy.

2,548,700,000 d6 (8,920,400,000) to destroy the Universe*

*Assuming approx. 100 billion galaxies which is the current scientific estimate.

So taking these figures as given:

By the end of the Frieza saga the main characters could comfortably destroy the Earths Sun.

By the Imperfect Cell Saga, the main characters could comfortably destroy the galaxy.

At no point could the characters destroy the universe in one blast although Sin Shenron and SS4 Gogeta would be very close. Presumably SS4 Goku's Universal Spirit Bomb is pretty much right on the button.

Any comments?

By the way I am thinking that (extrapolating the above procedure) perhaps dividing Power Level by 2 could determine character level as that sort of fits if we continue the Monk Damage above 20th.


----------



## CRGreathouse

I have a comment/question about Strength, carrying capacity, scaling, and physical factor.

In the past you've mentioned that you thought damage scaled poorly with Strength -- if Strength 200-300 is enough to lift the world, then +120 damage or so is small.  To what degree did this carrying capacity scaling affect your design choices, vs. other measures of what damage/Strength mean?

For myself, I think I'll just redo the carrying capacity system, since there's an easy fix for it.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> [A]bout 9 months ago I figured it would take you until roughly my birthday (mid-late October) to get the Apotheosis PDF out, and it seems that wasn't too far off* -- except it will be the Beastiary instead of Apotheosis to come out first.






			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Funnily enough I actually remember you saying that and I thought by now I'd even have the print version ready.




I'll be disappointed if the print version isn't out by my *following* birthday.  I imagine that after the book leaves your hands, there could be more delays on the (yet-unnamed) publisher's part that slows the process down further.


----------



## Zhnov

CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I'll be disappointed ...




Shucks, I'm disappointed _already_.    In fact, I hate looking at this thread...  that's how much it bugs me.   Recently, I just decided to give up.   :\  That was the only way I can stand the wait...   

I'm still going to buy it !

Z.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi CRGreathouse mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I have a comment/question about Strength, carrying capacity, scaling, and physical factor.
> 
> In the past you've mentioned that you thought damage scaled poorly with Strength -- if Strength 200-300 is enough to lift the world, then +120 damage or so is small.




Exactly.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> To what degree did this carrying capacity scaling affect your design choices, vs. other measures of what damage/Strength mean?
> 
> For myself, I think I'll just redo the carrying capacity system, since there's an easy fix for it.




I'm slightly confused as to what you are actually asking me? So this may not be what you want...

...however, from strength alone, base damage should be increasing x1.5 for every 15 points of strength. In part you could probably tie this in with density. This does not stack with strength granted due to greater size/mass.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I'll be disappointed if the print version isn't out by my *following* birthday.  I imagine that after the book leaves your hands, there could be more delays on the (yet-unnamed) publisher's part that slows the process down further.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Zhnov said:
			
		

> Shucks, I'm disappointed _already_.    In fact, I hate looking at this thread...  that's how much it bugs me.   Recently, I just decided to give up.   :\  That was the only way I can stand the wait...
> 
> I'm still going to buy it !




Hey Zhnov mate, I can only say sorry at this stage and thanks (to everyone) for hanging in there.


----------



## Anabstercorian

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I'm slightly confused as to what you are actually asking me? So this may not be what you want...
> 
> ...however, from strength alone, base damage should be increasing x1.5 for every 15 points of strength. In part you could probably tie this in with density. This does not stack with strength granted due to greater size/mass.




I think what he means is that, if a strength of 300 grants +120 to damage and allows you to lift the earth, it makes more sense from a game balance perspective to lower the amount of weight you can lift (i.e., to some amount less than the mass of the earth times 9.8 newtons per kilogram) than to increase the amount of damage you do.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> I think what he means is that, if a strength of 300 grants +120 to damage and allows you to lift the earth, it makes more sense from a game balance perspective to lower the amount of weight you can lift (i.e., to some amount less than the mass of the earth times 9.8 newtons per kilogram) than to increase the amount of damage you do.




Yes, thank you for explaining it better.  That's exactly what I mean.

Since the 'normal' range for PC strength (at lower levels, obviously) is 10-20, the obvious carrying capacity equation (Str)^2 gives the same carrying capacity at Str 0, 10, and 20 -- a useful scaling method.  This makes large Str more reasonable, and takes away the second scaling rule for Str below 10.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> I think what he means is that, if a strength of 300 grants +120 to damage and allows you to lift the earth, it makes more sense from a game balance perspective to lower the amount of weight you can lift (i.e., to some amount less than the mass of the earth times 9.8 newtons per kilogram) than to increase the amount of damage you do.




I am curious if that would also entail you changing the strength bonuses for size?


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I am curious if that would also entail you changing the strength bonuses for size?




I don't change the Str modifiers, but I change the size modifiers to carrying capacity.

It lets strength by size be regularized.  Assuming that dead-lift strength is proportional to cross-sectional area, DL ~ d^2, and the size modifiers by size category is x2 for each size larger (same as it works now) and /2 for each size smaller (different than now, since Small is x3/4 in the PH), then Str ~ d so for creatures of a similar build, doubling size (increasing category by +1) doubles the Str score.  Generally, of course, the same build won't be feasable with a larger creature, so the Str scores won't quite double.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 

...tried posting this a bit earlier but the boards ground to a halt.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I don't change the Str modifiers, but I change the size modifiers to carrying capacity.
> 
> It lets strength by size be regularized.  Assuming that dead-lift strength is proportional to cross-sectional area, DL ~ d^2, and the size modifiers by size category is x2 for each size larger (same as it works now) and /2 for each size smaller (different than now, since Small is x3/4 in the PH), then Str ~ d so for creatures of a similar build, doubling size (increasing category by +1) doubles the Str score.  Generally, of course, the same build won't be feasable with a larger creature, so the Str scores won't quite double.




I am trying to visualise this, can you give me an example and explain how this solves the problems of high strength/low damage.

Thanks.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I am trying to visualise this, can you give me an example and explain how this solves the problems of high strength/low damage.




I just made two changes to address carrying capacities for high Strengths: change how smaller sizes carry weight (x1/2 per category below Medium), and use a new chart.  Here's a part of the new chart for Medium bipeds:

10......100
11......121
12......144
13......169
...
20......400
21......441
22......484
...
50....2500
51....2601
52....2704

This way the carrying capacities stay sane, and the normal PC amounts aren't much changed.  For a Medium biped, Str 100 gives a heavy load of 5 tons instead of 13 107 tons under the PH system.


----------



## historian

Hey Krust!  



> At no point could the characters destroy the universe in one blast although Sin Shenron and SS4 Gogeta would be very close. Presumably SS4 Goku's Universal Spirit Bomb is pretty much right on the button.
> 
> Any comments?
> 
> By the way I am thinking that (extrapolating the above procedure) perhaps dividing Power Level by 2 could determine character level as that sort of fits if we continue the Monk Damage above 20th.




While I've never watched much DBZ, that equation would yield the following CR/ELs:

SS4 Goku = CR 1,650,000,000/EL 121
Sin Shenron (after absorbing dragon balls) = CR 5,000,000,000/EL 127
Goku (fused w/Shenron aadb) = CR 125,000,000,000 /EL 145

 

That should cover most campaigns, but still a far cry from HOU Thanos (if he is a supreme being/metaversal) who is:

CR 8E24/EL 325

Assuming, of course, that 8E24 is the going estimate.  In fact, Goku fused w/Shenron would be closer to a rat than to HOU Thanos based on EL.

It boggles the mind.


----------



## Zoatebix

I'm _so_ copying down CRGreathouses strength system.  Everything I need to know about carrying capacity on a 5cm by 4cm post-in note.  

I thought that it made a lot of sense, actually, until I saw how badly if hurt the low end  - STR 3 goes from a light load of 10 lbs to a maximum load of 9 lbs.  Ouch.

Your equations may scale better at high strengths, but I think there's something to be said for the PHB's low-end.  Maybe keep the PHB chart until STR 10 or 20 (which both intersect with your figures) and then use your system?
-George


----------



## CRGreathouse

Zoatebix said:
			
		

> Your equations may scale better at high strengths, but I think there's something to be said for the PHB's low-end.  Maybe keep the PHB chart until STR 10 or 20 (which both intersect with your figures) and then use your system?
> -George




Actually, there's something important I left out (since was posting this for U_K, and he's only concerned with upper-level balance).  I have object weights scale x1/8 per size category below Medium, so Str 3 goes from 30 lbs to 9 pounds, but effectively 36 pounds since armor, weapons, and random objects weight 1/4 the PH amounts.

1/8 scaling just makes more sense, since everything's 1/2 as large in 3 dimensions.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I just made two changes to address carrying capacities for high Strengths: change how smaller sizes carry weight (x1/2 per category below Medium), and use a new chart.  Here's a part of the new chart for Medium bipeds:
> 
> 10......100
> 11......121
> 12......144
> 13......169
> ...
> 20......400
> 21......441
> 22......484
> ...
> 50....2500
> 51....2601
> 52....2704
> 
> This way the carrying capacities stay sane, and the normal PC amounts aren't much changed.  For a Medium biped, Str 100 gives a heavy load of 5 tons instead of 13 107 tons under the PH system.




This means that to lift a planet (Sun-dipped Superman style) you need (approx.) strength 3.6 Trillion.

Or about 470 strength to lift 100 tons (Hulk).

I certainly see you method working well for High Physical Factor games, although core D&D is, by its very nature, Low Physical Factor. So I am not sure how practical it is in that regard.


----------



## Upper_Krust

historian said:
			
		

> Hey Krust!




Hi historina matey! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> While I've never watched much DBZ, that equation would yield the following CR/ELs:
> 
> SS4 Goku = CR 1,650,000,000/EL 121
> Sin Shenron (after absorbing dragon balls) = CR 5,000,000,000/EL 127
> Goku (fused w/Shenron aadb) = CR 125,000,000,000 /EL 145
> 
> 
> 
> That should cover most campaigns, but still a far cry from HOU Thanos (if he is a supreme being/metaversal) who is:
> 
> CR 8E24/EL 325
> 
> Assuming, of course, that 8E24 is the going estimate.  In fact, Goku fused w/Shenron would be closer to a rat than to HOU Thanos based on EL.
> 
> It boggles the mind.




Well the power of the Supreme Being depends on how high you advance your campaign. So there is no real set value, as I recall that above estimate was based on a ceiling limit of 72 dimensions for Time Lords, but of course you could technically have as little or as many as you wished or even no Time Lords at all so its flexible.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> This means that to lift a planet (Sun-dipped Superman style) you need (approx.) strength 3.6 Trillion.
> 
> Or about 470 strength to lift 100 tons (Hulk).
> 
> I certainly see you method working well for High Physical Factor games, although core D&D is, by its very nature, Low Physical Factor. So I am not sure how practical it is in that regard.




I never liked Superman lifting the Earth, or moving the moon, so I have no problems limiting it like this.

Wouldn't the Hulk be Large or Huge?  This would drop the Strength required to 224 to 316, a more reasonable figure.  I mean, dropping 100 tons from the Hulk's shoulder height to the ground would deal over 3500 damage on average, so what would make more sense:

* Having him deal 2d8+229 damage with a greatclub (my method)
* Having him deal 2d8+37 damage with a greatclub (WotC)

I'm comparing damage he can deal under the standard system by dropping a rock to bashing with a club -- they should surely be within a factor of 20, yes?


----------



## CRGreathouse

--double post--


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi CRGreathouse mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I never liked Superman lifting the Earth, or moving the moon, so I have no problems limiting it like this.




...well he is Superman. 

Although by DCs own rules he can normally only press about 800,000 tons.

By the way for those who follow cosmic happenings in the Marvel Universe theres an interesting storyline going on in both Thor: 

http://www.milehighcomics.com/firstlook/100604/thor85cvr.html

...and the alternate universe of the Exiles (Ego: the Living Planet vs. two Celestials).

http://www.milehighcomics.com/firstlook/100604/exil53cvr.html



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Wouldn't the Hulk be Large or Huge?




Large.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> This would drop the Strength required to 224 to 316, a more reasonable figure.  I mean, dropping 100 tons from the Hulk's shoulder height to the ground would deal over 3500 damage on average, so what would make more sense:
> 
> * Having him deal 2d8+229 damage with a greatclub (my method)
> * Having him deal 2d8+37 damage with a greatclub (WotC)
> 
> I'm comparing damage he can deal under the standard system by dropping a rock to bashing with a club -- they should surely be within a factor of 20, yes?




Hulk, capable of lifting 100 tons would deal 1d8+153 (punch) under your auspices, while a Colossal Great Wyrm Dragon (weighing approx. 1000 tons or more) would deal 4d8+16...right!? Such a dragon with Strength 43 could lift 104 tons (or 20 tons by your method).

Under your rules the discrepancy between size and damage grows even wider...unless I am missing something?

Edit: Then again it does correlate between the x5 Hulk strength and damage (roughly speaking).


----------



## Verequus

CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Actually, there's something important I left out (since was posting this for U_K, and he's only concerned with upper-level balance). I have object weights scale x1/8 per size category below Medium, so Str 3 goes from 30 lbs to 9 pounds, but effectively 36 pounds since armor, weapons, and random objects weight 1/4 the PH amounts.
> 
> 1/8 scaling just makes more sense, since everything's 1/2 as large in 3 dimensions.



 I'm sorry, I seem to miss something here, because somehow I don't understand at least, which size has the Str 3 creature and how weigh the things of the PHB less, if they are made for medium creatures. Or how do you get form a factor of 1/8 to 1/4. What's the Dead-Lift capacity? Heavy Load? Could you explain it to me step by step, please?


----------



## CRGreathouse

RuleMaster said:
			
		

> I'm sorry, I seem to miss something here, because somehow I don't understand at least, which size has the Str 3 creature and how weigh the things of the PHB less, if they are made for medium creatures. Or how do you get form a factor of 1/8 to 1/4. What's the Dead-Lift capacity? Heavy Load? Could you explain it to me step by step, please?




I'm not talking about Medium objects, but objects smaller than Medium.  Medium fullplate weighs 50 pounds.  By the PH Small fullplate weighs 25 pounds; I would have it weigh 6 1/4 pounds.

Dead Lift = amount a creature can lift off the ground (heavy load x2)
Heavy load = amount a creature can carry and still move normally (though somehwat slowed) = amount the creature can lift over it's head


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hulk, capable of lifting 100 tons would deal 1d8+153 (punch) under your auspices, while a Colossal Great Wyrm Dragon (weighing approx. 1000 tons or more) would deal 4d8+16...right!? Such a dragon with Strength 43 could lift 104 tons (or 20 tons by your method).
> 
> Under your rules the discrepancy between size and damage grows even wider...unless I am missing something?
> 
> Edit: Then again it does correlate between the x5 Hulk strength and damage (roughly speaking).




None of this bothers me.

As a non-fan of comic books, I think it's silly to have a character like Hulk who lifts 100 tons, especially when comparing him with wyrm dragons.

As to what makes more sense... under the standard system, a Medium character with Str 402 (who can carry the Earth and still be under a light load) deals only 1d3+196 damage with a punch.  A 12th-level barbarian could survive a hit like that, and that just doesn't work for me.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi CRGreathouse mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> None of this bothers me.
> 
> As a non-fan of comic books, I think it's silly to have a character like Hulk who lifts 100 tons, especially when comparing him with wyrm dragons.




Well I know that when Marvel try to explain Thors strength they do so by saying his muscle density is three times normal human. Thor weighs something like 750 lbs in the MU.

Perhaps each step could be treated as a size category...x1.5, x2, x3.

My proposal was to treat D&D in a similar fashion. So that beings automatically became more 'dense' as their strength increased. We know that strength increased by wishes becomes inherant and is not nulled within Anti-magic. So therefore the wishes must be increasing muscle mass or similar.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> As to what makes more sense... under the standard system, a Medium character with Str 402 (who can carry the Earth and still be under a light load) deals only 1d3+196 damage with a punch.  A 12th-level barbarian could survive a hit like that, and that just doesn't work for me.




Which is why a medium character with 402 strength (under the idea I present) would deal approx: 9216d6+196 (Averaging about 32,000). So using the Low Physical Factor rules they could wipe out a continent with one punch or pulverize a planet in a round or so. Although they couldn't deal enough damage to blast a planet to smithereens because of its gravitational binding energy.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Which is why a medium character with 402 strength (under the idea I present) would deal approx: 9216d6+196 (Averaging about 32,000). So using the Low Physical Factor rules they could wipe out a continent with one punch or pulverize a planet in a round or so. Although they couldn't deal enough damage to blast a planet to smithereens because of its gravitational binding energy.




Yes, but that's a 'big' change to the rules (requires rebalancing CRs), where mine is a 'small' change to the rules.


----------



## Zoatebix

Deeds Not Words did something similar to UK's strength method - the bonus to damage escalated faster than the raw Strength bonus as Strength increased.  I'll post Scott Lynch's super-strength chart later if anyone is interested.

Both U_K and CRGreathouse have valid solutions to the high-level problems with the d20 system's exponential growth model for carrying capacity.  Both are trying to give high-strength characters a mechanical reason to use normal combat methods rather than the more efficient - according to the rules as written - method of dropping or throwing heavy objects to inflict damage.

However, I'm sure there's more to consider than just getting damages and lifting capacities to match up - CRG's method is valid for him because he has no need or desire to emulate comic book precendents with his high-level characters.  He needs the quickest and easiest solution possibly - one that gets carrying capacities in line with the damage bonus from strength.

U_K's solution may have different parameters - maybe it's necessary to keep earth-shattering-and-lifting-strengths in a more reasonable numeric range.  We know he wants some semblancy of consistancy with a wide variety of genres and media -including comic-book characters - but we don't know what other design considerations contribute to making his 9216d6-solution necessary.  Nor do we know the context of that solution - do other ability scores have a similar new exponential growth aspect in his system?  Are there are other aspects we haven't even thought of that make his super-high damage for tremendous strength solution stay consistent with the +.1 CR per ability score point he outlines in his CR system?  Does the extra damage get factored in separately from the STR increase?  Is the increase in damage merely a reccommended design parameter, or is it a _necessary_ effect of having a high STR?  

U_K seems to have hinted at an increase in character density and perhaps some kind of "virtual size category" aspect to his high-strength solution, but we don't know all of the implications of his design.

Anyways, it would benefit if both of you (and the rest of us) in this discussion if we had a clearer picture of the aims U_K's method is trying to achieve, and the context in which it is trying to achieve those aims.  CRGreathouse should also feel free to comment on and correct my assumptions about his aims and the context of his high-strength method.

-George


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Yes, but that's a 'big' change to the rules (requires rebalancing CRs), where mine is a 'small' change to the rules.




It actually only affects creatures who would have greater than 26 strength at medium size. So, for instance a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon wouldn't be affected (since it only has an effective Strength of 15 as medium creatures).

eg. Str 47 (-32 Colossal Bonus) = 15.

The 3.5 Pit Fiend is affected, but doesn't need changed since WotC already upped them sufficiently.

eg. Str 37 (-8 Large Bonus) = 29

Therefore a Pit Fiend would be considered 2 size categories above medium for the purposes of base damage dice.


----------



## Zoatebix

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Therefore a Pit Fiend would be considered 2 size categories above medium for the purposes of base damage dice.




If I had waited a just a few minutes more to start editing my post, I would have had more information!  Damn my impatience   ...


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> It actually only affects creatures who would have greater than 26 strength at medium size. So, for instance a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon wouldn't be affected (since it only has an effective Strength of 15 as medium creatures).
> 
> eg. Str 47 (-32 Colossal Bonus) = 15.
> 
> The 3.5 Pit Fiend is affected, but doesn't need changed since WotC already upped them sufficiently.
> 
> eg. Str 37 (-8 Large Bonus) = 29
> 
> Therefore a Pit Fiend would be considered 2 size categories above medium for the purposes of base damage dice.




So does this make Strength more valuable than your standard CR formula would have them, or is this benefit 'free' as it were?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Zoatebix mate !



			
				Zoatebix said:
			
		

> Deeds Not Words did something similar to UK's strength method.




They say great minds think alike. 



			
				Zoatebix said:
			
		

> I'll post it later if anyone's interested.




Sure...or even the link?



			
				Zoatebix said:
			
		

> Perhaps this discussion would go better if UK could explain his design need to have a medium-sized earth-lifting character with the  more "approachable" STR score of 402, rather than whatever much more difficult to obain strength CRG's method requires.
> 
> The way I see it, you both have valid solutions to the problems D&D's exponential carrying capacity scaling and the linear scaling of damage versus strength, especialy the incongruities of at higher levels.  However, I'm sure there's more to consider than just getting damages and lifting capacities to match up - CRG's method is valid for him because he doesn't want to emulate comic book characters and he has no need for earth-lifting characters.  He just wants the characters to have a reason to fight rather than drop heavy objects on their enemies, and he wants to do it without affecting anything else.




Exactly. As I notioned previously, CRG's method is ideal for High Physical Factor games whereas my own is more suitable (in my humble opinion) for Low Physical factor (Comic Book Style) campaigns.



			
				Zoatebix said:
			
		

> U_K's solution may have different parameters - maybe it's necessary to keep earth-shattering-and-lifting-strengths in a more reasonable range.  We know he wants some consistancy with comic-book characters, but we don't know what other design considerations he has that make his 9216d6 solution necessary,




...actually looking over my chart I should have said 4096d*

*initial dice depending on the type of attack.

One of the reasons for my idea is to bring more involvement to combat at epic levels. Rolling the dice should mean something, and its diminished when the bonuses massively outstrip the dice. A glance over D&Dg (even before they make Greater Gods do maximum damage anyway) and the bonuses vastly outstrip the base damage (thats before factoring power attack, or adding epic feats or items).

Another factor was that of density, first really mentioned in D&Dg - specifically Thors Hammer Mjolnir weighing in at 2 Tons and dealing 4d8 base damage (though that should actually be 3d8 at that weight WotC  ). If mass via size deals more damage, then so must mass via density. Therefore if a deity has strength capable of wielding a weapon 8 times heavier (for example) then you have the potential to up the damage using exotic superdense materials.

A third factor is to beef up physical attacks slightly. A cursory glance over at the WotC boards and you will see that most of the power gamers take spellcasting builds over warrior builds. I also showed in the CR/EL document that there was a clear discrepancy between most of the spellcasting classes and the warrior classes.

Fourthly, this goes on to explain a number of irregular WotC base damages, which they used to make some high/epic level monsters more challenging.

Lastly, I always prefer the fantastical to the mundane, so I'd rather have Thor rip the huge steel door off its hinges than have to knock and wait for the resident giant to open it. 



			
				Zoatebix said:
			
		

> nor do we know the context of that solution - do other ability scores have a similar new exponential growth aspect in his system?




I'm considering it, but any other such ideas would be totally optional whereas this idea I see as generic.



			
				Zoatebix said:
			
		

> Are there are other aspects we haven't even thought of that make his STR solution stay consistent with the +.1 CR per ability score point he outlines in his CR system?  Does the extra damage get factored in separately from the STR increase?




I factor damage seperately as you know. The value for manufactured super-dense exotic materials would be accounted for in their price.



			
				Zoatebix said:
			
		

> Is the increase in damage merely a reccommended design parameter, or is it a _necessary_ effect of having a high STR?




Well, WotC already incorporate most of the changes I am suggesting (when they don't completely mess up a monster that is - as with the Xixecal), but as ever they don't like to explain things, whereas I do.

I would make it a necessity for natural weaponry and optional for manufactured weaponry.



			
				Zoatebix said:
			
		

> U_K seems to have hinted at an increase in character density and perhaps a "virtual size category" aspect to his STR solution, but we don't know all of the implications of his design.




See above.



			
				Zoatebix said:
			
		

> Anyways, this discussion would benefit if we knew where both of your were coming from.  I'll edit this post for brevity and clarity later - sorry, I'm in a rush!




I hope I have made my position clear? If not feel free to ask me questions on it.


----------



## Zoatebix

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I hope I have made my position clear? If not feel free to ask me questions on it.




All clear, thank you!  I can definately see the merits and logic of your strength parameters now, and I think that any confusion CRGreathouse or anyone else may have had about where your huge damage numbers were coming from (and how the CR system would accommodate them) will be dispelled.

Here's Scott Lynch's take on super-strength:


			
				Deeds Not Words page 322 said:
			
		

> Super-Strength and Super-Damage
> Although having superhuman Strength does not improve the
> standard Strength ability modifier (applied to Swim checks,
> Climb checks, raw Strength checks, and the like) beyond normal,
> it does improve a character’s melee damage bonus with
> each additional point. Examine the table above, and you will
> see the listed Super-Damage bonus for each Strength score.
> Use this in place of the character’s usual Strength modifier
> when dealing damage and only when dealing damage.
> For example, a character with a Strength score of 30 has a
> Strength modifier of +10, but he has a Super-Damage bonus
> of +18. A character with a Strength score of 40 has a Strength
> modifier of +15, but he has a Super-Damage bonus of +50.
> A super-strong character may elect to “pull” his melee
> attacks, dealing his ordinary Strength modifier as bonus damage
> rather than his full Super-Damage bonus. This is often
> necessary to avoid killing ordinary opponents outright with a
> single blow. A player must state that his character is pulling a
> blow before rolling to hit. A super-strong character may deal
> subdual melee damage only if he pulls his blow.




He also gives a dice you can roll instead of the flat super-damage bonuses, but I'd need to reprint the whole chart to show you that.  It's not an easily derivable method, and it doesn't strive to be compatable or consistant with other d20 sources because DNW is a game unto itself.
-George


----------



## historian

Hey Krust!



> Well the power of the Supreme Being depends on how high you advance your campaign. So there is no real set value, as I recall that above estimate was based on a ceiling limit of 72 dimensions for Time Lords, but of course you could technically have as little or as many as you wished or even no Time Lords at all so its flexible.




That's an elegant approach to the megaverse.  

Is the relatioinship between Supreme Being CR and number of dimensions linear or does it track otherwise?

BTW -- I like the strength "fixes" that have been proposed by you and CRG (and strength damage bonuses needed to be "fixed").  I'm going to be scrolling back a bit to see if I can catch the solutions from the ground up.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi guys! 

I think I have already answered your question (CRGreathouse) in my previous post, if not let me know and I'll go over it again.



			
				Zoatebix said:
			
		

> All clear, thank you!  I can definately see the merits and logic of your strength parameters now, and I think that any confusion CRGreathouse or anyone else may have had about where your huge damage numbers were coming from (and how the CR system would accommodate them) will be dispelled.




I hope so.



			
				Zoatebix said:
			
		

> Here's Scott Lynch's take on super-strength:
> 
> *SNIP*




I just don't understand the rationale behind his figures? It seems arbitrary rather than logical...?



			
				Zoatebix said:
			
		

> He also gives a dice you can roll instead of the flat super-damage bonuses, but I'd need to reprint the whole chart to show you that.




Yeah I was going to say just having a larger flat bonus would be self-defeating.



			
				Zoatebix said:
			
		

> It's not an easily derivable method, and it doesn't strive to be compatable or consistant with other d20 sources because DNW is a game unto itself.




If theres no logic behind his method then I cannot see any benefit in using it.


----------



## Upper_Krust

historian said:
			
		

> Hey Krust!




Hiya mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> That's an elegant approach to the megaverse.




Its pretty straightforward (a literal interpretation of Supreme Being), but I am glad you like it.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Is the relatioinship between Supreme Being CR and number of dimensions linear or does it track otherwise?




I don't know what you mean by 'track otherwise'?

The CR of the Supreme Being is simply the highest CR you want to use.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> BTW -- I like the strength "fixes" that have been proposed by you and CRG (and strength damage bonuses needed to be "fixed").  I'm going to be scrolling back a bit to see if I can catch the solutions from the ground up.




Let me know if theres anything you want answered.


----------



## Verequus

Hi UK!

 Could you look at this thread, please? http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1798067#post1798067

 On the last two pages, I discuss with others a possible translation of the Practiced Spellcaster feat to EoMR, the magic system, I use. I've brought up the CR equivalent of a spellcasting level with two feats, but RangerWickett doesn't think, that I (respectively your math) am right. I've answered it already, but maybe I've overlooked something.

 Thanks!


----------



## Upper_Krust

RuleMaster said:
			
		

> Hi UK!




Hi Rulemaster mate! 




			
				RuleMaster said:
			
		

> Could you look at this thread, please? http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1798067#post1798067
> 
> On the last two pages, I discuss with others a possible translation of the Practiced Spellcaster feat to EoMR, the magic system, I use. I've brought up the CR equivalent of a spellcasting level with two feats, but RangerWickett doesn't think, that I (respectively your math) am right. I've answered it already, but maybe I've overlooked something.
> 
> Thanks!




Just replied.

The problem was that (I think) RW wasn't taking into account the secondary implications of removing spellcasting abilities in a character built almost solely around spellcasting.


----------



## Verequus

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Just replied.



 You are the best!


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi all! 

I was wondering which of the following you prefered with regards size classifications?

What I initially had was:

...
Colossal
Immense
Titanic
Enormous
Humongous
Prodigious
Elephantine

But its a forlorn task since you run out of adjectives.

What I was thinking was to use the Macrobe (Devastation Creature) Template as a guide.

So you would have:

...
Colossal
Titanic (replacing Immense, just because I like Titanic more  )
Macro-Fine
Macro-Diminutive
Macro-Tiny
Macro-Small
Macro-Medium
Macro-Large
Macro-Huge
Macro-Gargantuan
Macro-Colossal
Macro-Titanic

One thing to consider though is that there is no specific creature in the bestiary technically bigger than Elephantine (Macro-Medium) anyway.

Although obviously if you added the Macrobe Template to an Ogre (for instance) it would be bigger than Elephantine/Macro-Medium.

Any thoughts?

By the way I appreciate the love Rulemaster mate!


----------



## Knight Otu

I believe I posted a size progression I like earlier in this thread, but here it goes:

 Colossal
 Enormous
 Titanic
 Vast
 Vast+
 Vast+2/Vast++
 Vast+3/Vast+++ (your Macro-Medium)
 etc.

 As you said, at some point, you have to change to a more "templated" writing, whether it is a +x, or the macro-size thing you proposed. That said, I'm not a fan of the progression you proposed, partially because it is ... counter-intuitive to go back to the earlier sizes. Also, what about sizes larger than that? Macro-Macro-Fine?
 Macro-Titanic would be Vast+9, which I believe would be the neighbourhood of Neth, the demiplane.


----------



## Kavon

Hey U_K 

Maybe add some examples of what sort of creature(s) would be in those size categories?

BTW, I like the "Titanic" more than the "Immense" too. Kind of keeps it.. I dunno.. with the big creature derived names, or something like that.
On that note.. are "Titans" in the "Titanic" size category?


----------



## historian

Hey Krust!



> Let me know if theres anything you want answered.




Thanks, and this might be a bit long but here goes (my apologies in advance for any misunderstandings).

The default base unarmed damage for a medium size creature with a strength of 10 would 1d6.

Every +15 in strength equals a doubling over the prior base damage.  Ex (for a medium sized creature):

Str. 

10 = 1d6
25 = 2d6
40 = 4d6
55 = 8d6
70 = 16d6
85 = 32d6
100 = 64d6
115 = 128d6
130 = 256d6
145 = 512d6

And so forth?

Also, my rough understanding is that an increase in damage die (1d6 becomes 1d8).

That's the limit of my understanding, basically.



> Its pretty straightforward (a literal interpretation of Supreme Being), but I am glad you like it.




Indeed I do.



> I don't know what you mean by 'track otherwise'?
> 
> The CR of the Supreme Being is simply the highest CR you want to use.




I was curious as to the formula that you use to determine the Supreme Being's CR based on the number of dimensions.  I was wondering whether the relationship between the number of dimensions and the Supreme Being's CR was linear or whether it followed another progression.

BTW -- did anyone ever correctly guess one of the Time Lords from real world mythology?

Thanks dude.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Knight Otu mate! 



			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> I believe I posted a size progression I like earlier in this thread, but here it goes:
> 
> Colossal
> Enormous
> Titanic
> Vast
> Vast+
> Vast+2/Vast++
> Vast+3/Vast+++ (your Macro-Medium)
> etc.




I think you may as well stick to Colossal + (++, +++ etc.) unless you have a specific reasoning otherwise.

Of the two ideas I propose, one is an (admittedly ultimately futile) attempt to give a new adjective for each size category. The other inputs Macro scaling into the mix at a factor of x1000 (technically x1024) or effectively +10 size categories. 



			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> As you said, at some point, you have to change to a more "templated" writing, whether it is a +x, or the macro-size thing you proposed. That said, I'm not a fan of the progression you proposed, partially because it is ... counter-intuitive to go back to the earlier sizes. Also, what about sizes larger than that? Macro-Macro-Fine?




Mega would replace Macro, if you ever needed it.



			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> Macro-Titanic would be Vast+9, which I believe would be the neighbourhood of Neth, the demiplane.




Thereabouts, although being spherical it would technically be one full size category larger.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Kavon said:
			
		

> Hey U_K




Hi Kavon matey! 



			
				Kavon said:
			
		

> Maybe add some examples of what sort of creature(s) would be in those size categories?




Well technically a Devastation Beetle would be Macro-Fine (in my opinion). Obviously I'll have a few amongst the IH critters.



			
				Kavon said:
			
		

> BTW, I like the "Titanic" more than the "Immense" too. Kind of keeps it.. I dunno.. with the big creature derived names, or something like that.




The only thing I don't like is that Godzilla would become Macro-Fine which doesn't sound as good as Titanic. In fact Mega would fit with Megasaurs but it would defeat the meaning of the word Mega.



			
				Kavon said:
			
		

> On that note.. are "Titans" in the "Titanic" size category?




True Titans...yes.


----------



## Upper_Krust

historian said:
			
		

> Hey Krust!




Hiya mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Thanks, and this might be a bit long but here goes (my apologies in advance for any misunderstandings).




None needed dude. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> The default base unarmed damage for a medium size creature with a strength of 10 would 1d6.




I've been looking over the Monster Manual and technically unarmed medium damage should probably be 1d4, although for dragons its 1d6.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Every +15 in strength equals a doubling over the prior base damage.  Ex (for a medium sized creature):




I've been thinking about this too and it should be a virtual size category increase every +20 points of strength...not +15.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Str.
> 
> 10 = 1d6
> 25 = 2d6
> 40 = 4d6
> 55 = 8d6
> 70 = 16d6
> 85 = 32d6
> 100 = 64d6
> 115 = 128d6
> 130 = 256d6
> 145 = 512d6
> 
> And so forth?




No. It would be x1.5, x2, x3, x4 etc.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Also, my rough understanding is that an increase in damage die (1d6 becomes 1d8).




Exactly.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> That's the limit of my understanding, basically.




I'll have it all explained in the Bestiary so you won't need to understand anything - just look at the tables. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Indeed I do.








			
				historian said:
			
		

> I was curious as to the formula that you use to determine the Supreme Being's CR based on the number of dimensions.  I was wondering whether the relationship between the number of dimensions and the Supreme Being's CR was linear or whether it followed another progression.




Its tricky to explain because Omnific Abilities are technically multipliers.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> BTW -- did anyone ever correctly guess one of the Time Lords from real world mythology?




Nope. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Thanks dude.




Your welcome mate.


----------



## Zoatebix

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I just don't understand the rationale behind his figures? It seems arbitrary rather than logical...?
> 
> ...If theres no logic behind his method then I cannot see any benefit in using it.




Hey man, I said Scott's was "similar" to your solution - not that it was any good     I just thought you would like to know that someone had an idea similar to yours, even if the effort to make a robust solution was not expended   

The values in Deeds Not Words are consistant across the super-powers system Mr Lynch presents but don't attempt anything like modeling physical phenomena.  They keep the cost of super-strength (and the damage bonus for having ridiculous STR) equal to the cost of super-toughness (and the damage reduction DNW grants characters with high constitution).  The DR granted by high-con negates the super-damage for high-str, and "ballance," such as it is, is preserved.


As much as I liked your system of adjectives, I think that for utilitiy's sake that using "templated" adjectives is the way to go.  

Unless... hmmmm.  At what point do creatures get big enough to start using terms like "city-sized," "region-sized," "continent-sized," "moon-like," "terrestrial," "gas planet-sized," "dwarf star-like," etc.?

Too much beyond that, though, and recognizable bodies tend to go up in orders of magnitude...

Okay - I'm of two minds.  "Templated" sizes are easy to use, but so are size-categories named after recognizable objects.  Is there a happy medium?
-George


----------



## Fieari

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> ...
> Colossal
> Immense
> Titanic
> Enormous
> Humongous
> Prodigious
> Elephantine
> 
> But its a forlorn task since you run out of adjectives.
> 
> What I was thinking was to use the Macrobe (Devastation Creature) Template as a guide.
> 
> So you would have:
> 
> ...
> Colossal
> Titanic (replacing Immense, just because I like Titanic more  )
> Macro-Fine
> Macro-Diminutive
> Macro-Tiny
> Macro-Small
> Macro-Medium
> Macro-Large
> Macro-Huge
> Macro-Gargantuan
> Macro-Colossal
> Macro-Titanic
> 
> One thing to consider though is that there is no specific creature in the bestiary technically bigger than Elephantine (Macro-Medium) anyway.
> 
> Although obviously if you added the Macrobe Template to an Ogre (for instance) it would be bigger than Elephantine/Macro-Medium.
> 
> Any thoughts?




Since you've mentioned this "macrobe" template, having a simple method for applying that template looks to be a good idea to me.  On the other hand, I like Immense as a descriptor, and would love to see it kept.  I'm also a big fan of Titanic as well, just as you are.  Any possibility of tossing Immense back into the mix?

I was never really fond of Enormous, Humongous, Prodigious, and Elephantine... simply because to my ear, they don't actually SOUND larger than, say, Titanic.  Well, Prodigious maybe, but Elephantine certain conjures up images of a mere elephant, which is tiny compared to the things you're describing here.  Enormous sounds like it should go under Colossal even, and I'd place Humungous lower than Immense.  The names just don't sound as... as... epic as "Titanic".


----------



## CRGreathouse

Fieari said:
			
		

> I was never really fond of Enormous, Humongous, Prodigious, and Elephantine... simply because to my ear, they don't actually SOUND larger than, say, Titanic.  Well, Prodigious maybe, but Elephantine certain conjures up images of a mere elephant, which is tiny compared to the things you're describing here.  Enormous sounds like it should go under Colossal even, and I'd place Humungous lower than Immense.  The names just don't sound as... as... epic as "Titanic".




I basically agree here.  I guess I could see Prodigious, but Enormous, Humongous,  and Elephantine sound smaller -- in some cases much smaller -- than Colossal.


----------



## Zoatebix

CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I basically agree here.  I guess I could see Prodigious, but Enormous, Humongous,  and Elephantine sound smaller -- in some cases much smaller -- than Colossal.




I'm in agreement, too.  Some "epic"-sized adjectives are good, titanic, immense, and prodigious are my favorites in order or preference, and I wouldn't mind if prodigious had to go.  After that, it's either templated sizes or descriptive adjectives if possible.


----------



## Baronovan

My two cents, for what they're worth:

...
Colossal
Immense
Prodigious
Enormous
Humongous
Giganitc
Titanic*

_*should be the top, no matter what, IMO--such a  cool word_

I don't like "elephantine" at all--it describes (to my ear) an elephant, which is at best what? Huge? Gargantuan? I really just don't want to see a simple ++ system, or attaching prefixes or suffixes to sizes to make new sizes. If a creature is still bigger than the biggest listing on the tables, it's time for a template that handles it on a case-by-case basis.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi guys! 

Thanks for all the feedback.

I have decided to run with the Macro scaling system with Titanic just after Colossal. It would have been nice to have a fresh descriptor with each new size category but sooner or later you run out, so I think in the long run its better to put such a system in place where it makes the most sense.

This makes Titanic (replacing Colossal+) the biggest size before adopting the Macro scale.

Essentially the Macro scale is 1000 times bigger (+10 size categories).

After that you could have the Mega scale (1,000,000 times bigger), Giga scale etc.

Also you can effectively stack the Macrobe Template with itself, twice for Mega, three times for Giga etc. Though most people won't need to do that the option is still there.

I have also tweaked the Strength bonus relevant for each size category (both for logic and simplicity) and the typical base damage figures also get changed with d10s replacing d6s & d8s to simplify things.

eg. 10d10 replaces 16d6. So that when you scale things beyond that point all you have to do is roll 1/10th the dice and multiply by 10 if you want.


----------



## Zoatebix

Yay yay yay!  Orders of magnitudey goodness!  I am now officially a fan of U_K's Macro(Kilo?) Mega, and Giga size scales!
-George


----------



## Zoatebix

You all have to check this stuff out: http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=103168

Wow.  I know this doesn't have much to do with immortal gaming (DanMcS mentions that "15th level fighters are pretty much demigods" or something along those lines, though!), but I really think we have an intriguing combat variant on our hands.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Zoatebix said:
			
		

> You all have to check this stuff out: http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=103168
> 
> Wow.  I know this doesn't have much to do with immortal gaming (DanMcS mentions that "15th level fighters are pretty much demigods" or something along those lines, though!), but I really think we have an intriguing combat variant on our hands.




Frankly it's the antethesis of the way I play the game.  Weapons aren't 'special effects', they're integral to the way one fights.  It's much easier to fight with a masterwork longsword than a ladder....


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Zoatebix mate! 



			
				Zoatebix said:
			
		

> You all have to check this stuff out: http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=103168
> 
> Wow.  I know this doesn't have much to do with immortal gaming (DanMcS mentions that "15th level fighters are pretty much demigods" or something along those lines, though!), but I really think we have an intriguing combat variant on our hands.




Thanks for the link mate, it was an interesting read, I couldn't help thinking this is the sort of article that Grim Tales would have been interested in.

By the way sorry for the slow reply, just been buried in the Bestiary of late. A few changes to the published list (some in name only, others in total), I'll probably have teasers up over the next week.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> By the way sorry for the slow reply, just been buried in the Bestiary of late. A few changes to the published list (some in name only, others in total), I'll probably have teasers up over the next week.




Slow replies are good when they mean that you're working in the IH.  Keep it up!

I look forward to the finished product.  I'll see what I can do to rouse support for it.


----------



## Knight Otu

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I think you may as well stick to Colossal + (++, +++ etc.) unless you have a specific reasoning otherwise.



 Is "I like those names" a good enough reason? 



			
				Zoatebix said:
			
		

> Unless... hmmmm. At what point do creatures get big enough to start using terms like "city-sized," "region-sized," "continent-sized," "moon-like," "terrestrial," "gas planet-sized," "dwarf star-like," etc.?



 I don't have sizes for all of them, and I might be off, but here it goes for my system:
 Vast +13 to Vast +16 are terrestrial planets. +13 is Pluto, +14 is our moon, +15 is Mars, +16 are Venus and earth.

 Vast +18/+19 are the gas giants of our system; Uranus and Neptune at the lower end, Jupiter and Saturn at the upper end.

 Our sun is Vast +22

 Our galaxy is Vast +62 or thereabouts.


----------



## Zoatebix

CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Frankly it's the antethesis of the way I play the game.  Weapons aren't 'special effects', they're integral to the way one fights.  It's much easier to fight with a masterwork longsword than a ladder....




But it would be so easy to build that into the system - give some die-step penalties (or to-hit penalties, or both) for improvised weapons and _viola_, the ladder fighter is at a distinct disadvantage.

On another note: I thought it was interesting how similar DanMcS's mechanics were to the weapon-creation rules in Grim Tales...
-George


----------



## CRGreathouse

Zoatebix said:
			
		

> But it would be so easy to build that into the system - give some die-step penalties (or to-hit penalties, or both) for improvised weapons and _viola[\i], the ladder fighter is at a distinct disadvantage.
> 
> On another note: I thought it was interesting how similar DanMcS's mechanics were to the weapon-creation rules in Grim Tales...
> -George_



_

I was commenting more on the theory behind the system and less on the system itself.  The system is mechanically salvagable; the intent rubs me the wrong way.  It's fine for someone else's game, but I'd hate to see it work its way into a product I might otherwise want to buy._


----------



## Revenge of the Bjorn

Actually, now that Zoatebix mentions it I like the sound of a word like kilohuge.  Say it with a short uh sound where the o is (like people say kil-uh-gram) kil-uh-huge. Now put it in a sentence like "Check that thing out, its like kilohuge."  and it seems almost scientific yet almost absurd.  kilohuge-I may start using that in day to day life.


----------



## Zoatebix

I feel silly - I didn't even see U_K mention Grim Tales three posts above mine...  heh.  Kilohuge.  Weeeeee!
-George


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Knight Otu mate! 



			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> Is "I like those names" a good enough reason?




No. 

For whats its worth I have decided to put a table at the end of the size discussion element of the Bestiary that gives alternate names for all the Macro sizes. Although I will of course be using the Macro-scale myself in the Bestiary where applicable.



			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> I don't have sizes for all of them, and I might be off, but here it goes for my system:
> Vast +13 to Vast +16 are terrestrial planets. +13 is Pluto, +14 is our moon, +15 is Mars, +16 are Venus and earth.
> 
> Vast +18/+19 are the gas giants of our system; Uranus and Neptune at the lower end, Jupiter and Saturn at the upper end.
> 
> Our sun is Vast +22
> 
> Our galaxy is Vast +62 or thereabouts.




Planets would be encompassed within the Mega Scale (Earth would be Mega-Gargantuan*), Jupiter would be Giga-Fine*, our Sun would be Giga-Small*, our Galaxy would be Peta-Titanic*.

*I think.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Bjorn matey! 



			
				Revenge of the Bjorn said:
			
		

> Actually, now that Zoatebix mentions it I like the sound of a word like kilohuge.  Say it with a short uh sound where the o is (like people say kil-uh-gram) kil-uh-huge. Now put it in a sentence like "Check that thing out, its like kilohuge."  and it seems almost scientific yet almost absurd.  kilohuge-I may start using that in day to day life.




Who wants a kilohug though. I'm sharing the love.


----------



## Fieari

Hey Krust...

I was just going through some of my campaign plans, and I was remembering one of my old little excersizes I went through to try and teach myself how the epic magic system works, which also convinced me that the system is... uh... lacking.  I know you're going to have some revised epic rules in the IH, and I was wondering if your rules would cover the following situation better:

Narnia-- The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe.  Constructing the spell "Always Winter, Never Christmas".  It needs to cover the size of a Kingdom (A Horse and His Boy confirmed that only Narnia was put under this curse, the rest of the planet was uneffected) it needs to be permanent, and it needs to keep Saint Nic away, so it needs to encompass a warding of some sort.

I worked it out with the current epic system, and you need an ABSURD amount of spell craft to cast it without calling in other spellcasters (which obviously weren't available in Narnia).  Even giving it the MAXIMUM casting time, MAXIMUM xp expenditure, you need, if I recall correctly, hundreds of thousands of ranks in spellcraft.  The problem is both the x5 multiplier on making it permanent, and all those repeated multipliers for expanding the area.

This strikes me as unfortunate... because in my mind, the very ESSENSE of epic magic is that it enthralls entire kingdoms.  D&D seems to have this mentality that you're going up against single foes that are no larger than the Tarresque, which is big, yes, but nothing like on the scale I'm interested in.  Because once you're at epic levels, as far as I see it, there's very few "single enemy challenges" that are worth the effort, or are even INTERESTING.  That's for low level stuff.  On the epic scale, your actions should have VAST ramifications.  I'm thinking here of Sepulcrave's stuff, of course, but also standard literary things.  By one man's actions, a world is altered.  

And that's what I -really- want to see with epic magic.  Less "power converged at a single point" and more "power dispersed over a wide area".

Will the IH make me even happier than I know it already will?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Fieari said:
			
		

> Hey Krust...




Hi Fieari mate! 



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> I was just going through some of my campaign plans, and I was remembering one of my old little excersizes I went through to try and teach myself how the epic magic system works, which also convinced me that the system is... uh... lacking.  I know you're going to have some revised epic rules in the IH, and I was wondering if your rules would cover the following situation better:
> 
> Narnia-- The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe.  Constructing the spell "Always Winter, Never Christmas".  It needs to cover the size of a Kingdom (A Horse and His Boy confirmed that only Narnia was put under this curse, the rest of the planet was uneffected) it needs to be permanent, and it needs to keep Saint Nic away, so it needs to encompass a warding of some sort.
> 
> I worked it out with the current epic system, and you need an ABSURD amount of spell craft to cast it without calling in other spellcasters (which obviously weren't available in Narnia).  Even giving it the MAXIMUM casting time, MAXIMUM xp expenditure, you need, if I recall correctly, hundreds of thousands of ranks in spellcraft.  The problem is both the x5 multiplier on making it permanent, and all those repeated multipliers for expanding the area.
> 
> This strikes me as unfortunate... because in my mind, the very ESSENSE of epic magic is that it enthralls entire kingdoms.  D&D seems to have this mentality that you're going up against single foes that are no larger than the Tarresque, which is big, yes, but nothing like on the scale I'm interested in.  Because once you're at epic levels, as far as I see it, there's very few "single enemy challenges" that are worth the effort, or are even INTERESTING.  That's for low level stuff.  On the epic scale, your actions should have VAST ramifications.  I'm thinking here of Sepulcrave's stuff, of course, but also standard literary things.  By one man's actions, a world is altered.
> 
> And that's what I -really- want to see with epic magic.  Less "power converged at a single point" and more "power dispersed over a wide area".
> 
> Will the IH make me even happier than I know it already will?




Well, a number of points.

Did you know they are making a live action Lion, Witch, Wardrobe film at the moment?

With regards Epic Magic. You could cover an 8 mile radius with a 9th-level spell slot for a Control Weather spell (Enlarged three times) with an average duration of 30 hours. If you used a Limited Wish in conjunction with Permanency I am sure you could ensure it was long lasting - as per the stipulations of the story.

Oh and the IH Magic system destroys Epic Magic in balance, simplicity and grandeur.


----------



## Zoatebix

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Oh and the IH Magic system destroys Epic Magic in balance, simplicity and grandeur.




I was hoping epic spellcasting would be unrecognizable (and the better for it) after you had your way with it.  Hooray!
-George


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Zoatebix mate! 



			
				Zoatebix said:
			
		

> I was hoping epic spellcasting would be unrecognizable (and the better for it) after you had your way with it.  Hooray!
> -George




With a few tweaks I think I could balance it if nothing else, thats something I might attend to when I finish the Grimoire. But I don't favour the idea of the Spellcraft Skill being the decisive factor in epic spells so I prefer my extension to magic.


----------



## BSF

Upper_Krust, have you taken a look at the rules in Spellbound?  Personally, I like the system.  It might not be appropriate for all games, but there might be some ideas you can look at in it.


----------



## Fieari

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> With a few tweaks I think I could balance it if nothing else, thats something I might attend to when I finish the Grimoire. But I don't favour the idea of the Spellcraft Skill being the decisive factor in epic spells so I prefer my extension to magic.




Any hints, or are you going to leave us all drooling outside the candyshop window?  Man, I can't wait...


----------



## Anabstercorian

Argh You Must Finish The Bestiary Or All Puppies Are Eaten


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi BardStephenFox matey! 



			
				BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> Upper_Krust, have you taken a look at the rules in Spellbound?  Personally, I like the system.  It might not be appropriate for all games, but there might be some ideas you can look at in it.




It sounds interesting (from the reviews), however I am not sure how relevant the success/failure system is to epic/immortal gaming. Though that said I do present multiple styles within the same mechanic.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Fieari mate! 



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> Any hints, or are you going to leave us all drooling outside the candyshop window?  Man, I can't wait...




Well at the lowest common denominator the system incorporates the metamagic rules as a basis, however thats not the crux of things.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Anabstercorian mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> Argh You Must Finish The Bestiary Or All Puppies Are Eaten




Easy Tiger! I'm on it. 

Quite a few changes from the original list - but all for the better I assure you. No Inevitables in there anymore I'll save them for another time (though I do have all the Inevitables outlined, you'll love what I've done with them and their specific enemies), however the Cosmocrat is still in there (now one of the Intelligibles).

Oh and if Bjorn is reading...one type of the Intelligibles wields the Vajra weapon.


----------



## Anabstercorian

:: pauses in the middle of eating the puppies :: What's a Vajra?


----------



## Angel Tarragon

Woot: 1100th reply in this thread!


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> :: pauses in the middle of eating the puppies :: What's a Vajra?




*distracts Anabstercorian long enough for the puppies to escape*

Vajra is an exotic weapon a bit like a hollow double mace.

http://www.exoticindiaart.com/sculptures/Ritual/4/

Of course theres a lot more to it than that when you add occult references.


----------



## Revenge of the Bjorn

I've been reading right along, but didn't have much to say.  And I was very dissapointed to have missed another 666th post in one of your threads.  and I hope by Vajra you mean the more occultic version rather than something mundane.


----------



## Anabstercorian

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *distracts Anabstercorian long enough for the puppies to escape*




New Epic Adventure Hook: A mad psuedonatural is eating all the puppies!  Can you save them before every last fluffy buddy is chewed to a meaty mash?


----------



## Fieari

I am SO going to use that hook.  I've three evil divinely created assasin monsters going about exterminating life as we know it, and for one of them, it will be introduced to the players as it is devouring puppies.  Very cute puppies that I will try my hardest to get the players emotionally involved with before the devouring begins.  Wonderful!


----------



## Verequus

Hi U_K!

 Maybe you are interested in this thread?

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=104556

 It is about splitting HD for monsters regarding class level and size respectively (if that makes sense).


----------



## Upper_Krust

*Question.*

Hi all! 

I was typing up the Golem entries when I noticed that the default Base Damage for Golems is bizarrely high.

eg. The Flesh Golem deals more damage with a 1-handed punch than if it were wielding a greatsword in its hand (1-Handed because its Large)!!!

I mean whats that all about?

Now the question is should I outline Golem damage the way WotC do it (?) or should I stand by my own convictions?

eg. Should the Diamond Golem deal 1d8 base damage or 2d8? 

The confusion is compounded by the fact that some Golems actually do carry weapons (possibly as an intrinsic part of their make-up).

NB. The Iron Golem illustration in the MM shows it wielding a sword whereas the Flesh Golem illustration shows it is unarmed.


...and thanks for the link Rulemaster mate - I have been advocating ideas along those lines for years. Remember my 1 HD per 2 ft. height/length idea in the CR/EL doc.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I was typing up the Golem entries when I noticed that the default Base Damage for Golems is bizarrely high.
> 
> eg. The Flesh Golem deals more damage with a 1-handed punch than if it were wielding a greatsword in its hand (1-Handed because its Large)!!!
> 
> I mean whats that all about?
> 
> Now the question is should I outline Golem damage the way WotC do it (?) or should I stand by my own convictions?
> 
> eg. Should the Diamond Golem deal 1d8 base damage or 2d8?




In general, I think you should stick with your way rather than WotC's way.  (Fancy me saying that!)  Having said that, I think that a diamond golem should deal at least 2d8 base damage, just 'cause... you know... it's diamond.


----------



## Verequus

UOTE=CRGreathouse]In general, I think you should stick with your way rather than WotC's way. (Fancy me saying that!) Having said that, I think that a diamond golem should deal at least 2d8 base damage, just 'cause... you know... it's diamond. [/QUOTE] 
 If you apply our physics, human flesh should be as easily crushed as through a diamond golem as through a stone golem, but a diamond golem should do more damage on the stone golem and conversly the stone golem less. If you discard the argument, that diamonds are more brittle, because magic strengthens it, then consider, that in D&D the source of pure physical damage isn't distinguished in that way, how much harder something is compared to other material - at least not in the detail, you are implying. So I'm in favour of U_K's way.

 U_K:
 BTW, I should have my headset by next saturday - yayy!


----------



## CRGreathouse

RuleMaster said:
			
		

> If you apply our physics, human flesh should be as easily crushed as through a diamond golem as through a stone golem, but a diamond golem should do more damage on the stone golem and conversly the stone golem less. If you discard the argument, that diamonds are more brittle, because magic strengthens it, then consider, that in D&D the source of pure physical damage isn't distinguished in that way, how much harder something is compared to other material - at least not in the detail, you are implying. So I'm in favour of U_K's way.[\QUOTE]
> 
> The "you know" and  were meant to show that while I understand that the argument doesn't follow RW physics and there's no need for it to work one way or another in the game, I still 'feel' they should do more damage.  YMMV.


----------



## Planesdragon

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> eg. The Flesh Golem deals more damage with a 1-handed punch than if it were wielding a greatsword in its hand (1-Handed because its Large)!!!




So, a semisoft head-sized ball of flesh is more lethal than a sharp sword?

I say re-do the golem "fist" base damage, and make up the rest in strength.  To keep their to-hit in the same range, have the golems automatically power-attack.


----------



## Knight Otu

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I was typing up the Golem entries when I noticed that the default Base Damage for Golems is bizarrely high.
> 
> eg. The Flesh Golem deals more damage with a 1-handed punch than if it were wielding a greatsword in its hand (1-Handed because its Large)!!!



 The slam attack of a flesh golem deals 2d8 points of damage as its base.
 A golem-sized one-handed melee weapon will at most be:
 Simple: 2d6 (morningstar, heavy mace; 1d8 base damage at medium)
 Martial: 2d6 (quite a few, with a few bonuses)
 Exotic: 2d8 (bastard sword and dwarven waraxe).
 The damage is high, but not absurdly high when compared this way. Of course, it gets worse with the more powerful golems. That's where it gets bizarre (2d10 base damage!)


----------



## Verequus

CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> The "you know" and  were meant to show that while I understand that the argument doesn't follow RW physics and there's no need for it to work one way or another in the game, I still 'feel' they should do more damage. YMMV.



 Sorry for the misinterpretation. :-(


----------



## Zoatebix

Hey U_K -
Your system gets some good press from Piratecat here: http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=104523
-George

Now I go back to reading the rest of that thread...
-George


----------



## Anabstercorian

Don't think of it as a punch, think of it as a Slam - a great lashing blow with the whole of the body.  Why do you think they only get one per round?


----------



## Knight Otu

Uhm, Anab, most golems get 2 slam attacks on a full attack...


----------



## Anabstercorian

*finger wiggle* This is not the illithid you're looking for.


----------



## Zoatebix

I think a slam is a very different beast than an unarmed strike.  An unarmed striker has to worry about injuring himself with his own attack and uses technique to minimize the risk of self-injury or self-infliction of pain while maximizing the damage done to the enemy.  A slammer doesn't have to worry about self-inflicted injury because of their supernatural composition, protection, and/or abilities.

At least, that seems like a reasonable division to me.  Supernatural slammers like golems and vampires have less fear of Newton's 3rd law - they're not going to hurt themselves no matter what.
-George

Edit: It's kind of like how Thai kickboxers will kill the nerves in their shins (by repeatedly hitting a tree, I think) before a match.  This opens an interesting line of martial arts feats that I haven't seen elsewhere - a power-attack like feat for unarmed strikers: Minimum STR 15, you do 1 bonus damage for every point of damage you decide to inflict on youself, up to your BAB.  This bonus damage can stack with the damage from power attack... Cool!
-George


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi all! 

Quite a few replies on this point.

Its pretty easy to see the discrepancy with regards the Flesh Golem. However the lines start to blur whenever you are dealing with Stone, Iron or better.

What I have done is tied density (perfectly I might add) into strength...by the way the Neutronium Golem has Strength 329. 

Is the fist of an Iron Golem (for instance) as damaging as if it were carrying an iron greatsword (one handed). Personally I don't think so, the extra length of the weapon will provide extra momentum and through that extra damage. Think about the difference between a heavy mailed fist and a mace.

The second fly in the ointment is that some golems 'do' actually wield weapons built into their make-up. However this is not the default approach.

I have to admit I am still torn as to the best way to do this. It only really matters to the Force and Diamond Golems in the Bestiary as the Mercury Golem automatically gets the higher bonus because it can morph its slams into weapons and I guarantee you won't notice it for the Orichalcum or Neutronium Golems even if I have the lower damage in effect. 

By the way - thanks for the link Zoatebix. I'm happy to see Piratecat and others getting a lot out of my work in Grim Tales.


----------



## historian

The Neutronium and Orichalcum golems sound awfully cool.



> What I have done is tied density (perfectly I might add) into strength...by the way the Neutronium Golem has Strength 329.




Wow -- that thing could take out a greater deity w/one slam.

 

What kind of CR does this thing have?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi historian mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> The Neutronium and Orichalcum golems sound awfully cool.




They are more hot than cool. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Wow -- that thing could take out a greater deity w/one slam.




Pretty much (I presume you meant the Neutronium Golem) although its other abilities are much more dangerous than its slams.  



			
				historian said:
			
		

> What kind of CR does this thing have?




The Orichalcum Golem has a (WotC) CR of 120, the Neutronium Golem has a CR of 1536...and the Black Hole Golem I'll keep for another day. 

The other Golems are (relatively) less powerful.

Incidently the Neutronium Golem replaces the Ioun Golem which I'll also keep for Bestiary 2. I was having problems with two of its powers and better to let the idea sit on the shelf for now rather than have it delay me.


----------



## Angel Tarragon

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> ...and the Black Hole Golem I'll keep for another day.



Black Hole Golem?! Hot damn! Did I fail to see this in the monster listing at your site UK, or am I dreaming an hullicination?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Frukathka mate! 



			
				Frukathka said:
			
		

> Black Hole Golem?! Hot damn! Did I fail to see this in the monster listing at your site UK, or am I dreaming an hullicination?




Its not on the list because its not going to be in the first Bestiary.

The Golems in the Bestiary are:

Diamond
Force
Mercury
Neutronium (replaces Ioun, which I'll work on and use in any subsequent Bestiary)
Orichalcum

The Black Hole Golem is very, very powerful (and this is me talking remember!). To put this into perspective, the Neutronium Golem would likely (as hinted at) destroy a Greater God in one hit...and the Black Hole Golem is much more powerful, I think you would need to be a Time Lord to challenge one. If people tell me the Bestiary monsters were too low powered (unlikely, but possible I suppose) I will have it in the second Bestiary, but looking at it on paper it looks almost too powerful.

The Neutronium Golem is one of the big 'eight' (or maybe 9 counting the macrobe template example) creatures in the Bestiary:

Angel: Kerubim
Angel: Seraphim
Golem: Neutronium
Infinitaur
Intelligible: Cosmocrat
Lipika
Macrobe [Template] eg. Devastation Bugbear (I really want that to be a Devastation Human but I hate the idea of a 1HD human base creature)
Magog
Trithemian

These are the monsters that can take on an entire Pantheon or in a few cases, multiple Pantheons.

The Neutronium Golem sort of worked itself out, I didn't assign it a Challenge Rating to start with.


----------



## Angel Tarragon

Okay, good. I'm glad to know that I didn't dream that I posted that post.


----------



## historian

Hey Krust.  



> The Black Hole Golem is very, very powerful (and this is me talking remember!). To put this into perspective, the Neutronium Golem would likely (as hinted at) destroy a Greater God in one hit...and the Black Hole Golem is much more powerful, I think you would need to be a Time Lord to challenge one. If people tell me the Bestiary monsters were too low powered (unlikely, but possible I suppose) I will have it in the second Bestiary, but looking at it on paper it looks almost too powerful.




Sweet.  In terms of scale, am I right in estimating that the neutronium golem could probably wipe out an earth sized planet in a reasonable (like a couple of minutes or less) time frame?



> The Neutronium Golem is one of the big 'eight' (or maybe 9 counting the macrobe template example) creatures in the Bestiary:
> 
> Angel: Kerubim
> Angel: Seraphim
> Golem: Neutronium
> Infinitaur
> Intelligible: Cosmocrat
> Lipika
> Macrobe [Template] eg. Devastation Bugbear (I really want that to be a Devastation Human but I hate the idea of a 1HD human base creature)
> Magog
> Trithemian




Nice, very nice.  I remember you once said (years ago) that the infinitaur was inspired by something from the Superman mythos.  This is the only name that I couldn't "place" if you will.  But it all looks very cool.



> These are the monsters that can take on an entire Pantheon or in a few cases, multiple Pantheons.




Bitchin'


----------



## Upper_Krust

historian said:
			
		

> Hey Krust.




Hi historian mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Sweet.  In terms of scale, am I right in estimating that the neutronium golem could probably wipe out an earth sized planet in a reasonable (like a couple of minutes or less) time frame?




Using the low physical factor planet rules, yes.

Its pulsed x-ray attack deals almost as much damage as the meteor that wiped out the dinosaurs.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Nice, very nice.  I remember you once said (years ago) that the infinitaur was inspired by something from the Superman mythos.  This is the only name that I couldn't "place" if you will.  But it all looks very cool.




The original impetus, yes. But it has changed somewhat since then. Though you win points for remembering that.   

About ten creatures in the bestiary were inspired by monsters I have seen elsewhere although its ironic that one monster that wasn't (the Grigori) will probably end up looking the most recognisable.

Lets see...

inspired by video games (2) ...I'm not saying which, and thats final. 
inspired by comics (4) ...mostly something from Thor.
inspired by animation (3) ...Yellow Submarine, Dragonball Z, D&D cartoon.
inspired by an existing D&D monster (1) ...lets just say its my favourite D&D monster of all time.

Also I suppose you could say Simons creatures the Mercury Golem and Prismatic Pudding (both given a facelift by yours truly) were inspired by famous movie monsters.

The rest were either inspired by mythological or occult research, although on many occasions this might be as simple as taking a name I liked and creating something around it.


----------



## Dark Wolf 97

Hey U_K!



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Macrobe [Template] eg. Devastation Bugbear (I really want that to be a Devastation Human but I hate the idea of a 1HD human base creature)




In the magic section of the IH, the Grimore, are there any spells or magic items that could add the Macrobe template to a creature. If it was a magic item, what would its market value be?    I can just imagine an insane sorcerer making himself a couple of miles tall, then throwing him against the PCs (who would be nothing less than greater gods). And if a 2HD bugbear changes to roughly 200 HD???, what would a 78th level sorcerer change to? Is it based purely off of racial HD, or would class levels count as well?

Later


----------



## Upper_Krust

Dark Wolf 97 said:
			
		

> Hey U_K!




Hiya Dark Wolf 97 mate! 



			
				Dark Wolf 97 said:
			
		

> In the magic section of the IH, the Grimore, are there any spells or magic items that could add the Macrobe template to a creature. If it was a magic item, what would its market value be?




There is a generic template adding spell.

Any such spell adding multiplier templates would have to be based on the creatures original HD. Casting Macrobe on a 1/8th HD creature would require a 64th-level spell (or Epic DC 570)



			
				Dark Wolf 97 said:
			
		

> I can just imagine an insane sorcerer making himself a couple of miles tall, then throwing him against the PCs (who would be nothing less than greater gods).




More likely he would cast the spell on a couple of bugs and turn them into Devastation Vermin and throw them at the PCs.

I think the Macrobe Template works best when the creature becomes mindless. So its not the ideal choice for the Sorceror to cast on himself.



			
				Dark Wolf 97 said:
			
		

> And if a 2HD bugbear changes to roughly 200 HD???,




A 3HD Bugbear changes to a 3072HD Macrobe Bugbear (aka Deveatstion Bugbear).



			
				Dark Wolf 97 said:
			
		

> what would a 78th level sorcerer change to?




Technically a 1024HD Human (?) with 78th-level Sorceror abilities...except that the Macrobe Template (in its current form) makes you mindless/mad.

Also like I said, I hate the 1HD human.



			
				Dark Wolf 97 said:
			
		

> Is it based purely off of racial HD, or would class levels count as well?




Its purely based on Hit Dice.



			
				Dark Wolf 97 said:
			
		

> Later




Cheerio!


----------



## Knight Otu

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> inspired by animation (3) ...Yellow Submarine, Dragonball Z, D&D cartoon.



 "We all live in a yellow submarine, yellow submarine, yellow submarine..." 
 Glove?

 So the macrobe template multiplies HD by 1024. Anything else not easily derived from the devastation vermin?


----------



## Dark Wolf 97

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hiya Dark Wolf 97 mate!




Hey there Upper_Krust!



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> There is a generic template adding spell.
> 
> Any such spell adding multiplier templates would have to be based on the creatures original HD. Casting Macrobe on a 1/8th HD creature would require a 64th-level spell (or Epic DC 570)




Makes sense. Also I hope that my PCs will make it long enough to see suh high level epic spells (although I bet you've got some alot higher).   




			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> More likely he would cast the spell on a couple of bugs and turn them into Devastation Vermin and throw them at the PCs.
> 
> I think the Macrobe Template works best when the creature becomes mindless. So its not the ideal choice for the Sorceror to cast on himself.




Cool. The sorcerer I have in mind always likes to be in control, so no Marcobing-out today.   



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> A 3HD Bugbear changes to a 3072HD Macrobe Bugbear (aka Deveatstion Bugbear).




Yikes!



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Cheerio!




Later


----------



## devilish

*Nagging Question - Release Date?*

Hey all -- sorry to hijack --- but when is Immortals Handbook
I expected to be released?  I checked the site and the past
30 threads or so and couldn't find it. 

I know lots of people have been waiting longer than myself -- but
I find myself in desperate need of a Worship Points system -- that
and the rest of the contents look incredible!!!

So, just curious -- Autumn '04 as in tomorrow (pleasepleasepleaseplease - tell me who I have to kill) or December-ish autumn? 

Thanks!
-D


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi devilish! 



			
				devilish said:
			
		

> Hey all -- sorry to hijack --- but when is Immortals Handbook
> I expected to be released?  I checked the site and the past
> 30 threads or so and couldn't find it.
> 
> I know lots of people have been waiting longer than myself -- but
> I find myself in desperate need of a Worship Points system -- that
> and the rest of the contents look incredible!!!
> 
> So, just curious -- Autumn '04 as in tomorrow (pleasepleasepleaseplease - tell me who I have to kill) or December-ish autumn?
> 
> Thanks!
> -D




The Bestiary will happen sometime in (probably mid) November. After that I'll try my darndest to get the Apotheosis pdf ready before Xmas. 

Sorry for the continued delays.


----------



## devilish

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> The Bestiary will happen sometime in (probably mid) November. After that I'll try my darndest to get the Apotheosis pdf ready before Xmas.
> 
> Sorry for the continued delays.




ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY no need for apologies (fer me, at least)!  
Sorry to kiss-***, but I'm *so* looking forward for this -- exactly
the kind of crunch I love in my campaign.  

Much apprec on all the work you're doing on this.....and if
you need beta-reviewers.....;-)

Thanks!
-D


----------



## Anabstercorian

Puppies for Thanksgiving feast unless Bestiary is out by then!


----------



## poilbrun

Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> Puppies for Thanksgiving feast unless Bestiary is out by then!



 You know you really make me afraid sometimes?


----------



## historian

Hey U_K.  



> Using the low physical factor planet rules, yes.
> 
> Its pulsed x-ray attack deals almost as much damage as the meteor that wiped out the dinosaurs.




MWUHAHAHAHAHAHA!  

I think you're talking in the range of doing 20-30K damage on average (low physical factor).

I can't wait to see this thing (the neutronium).  I would imagine that the black hole golem would be to the sun (in terms of relative power) what the neutronium golem is to a planet. 

What kind of being would create a neutronium golem?  My guess is these things would be created to defend space sectors.

In reference to the infinitaur:



> The original impetus, yes. But it has changed somewhat since then. Though you win points for remembering that.




Do I get a prize?

 



> inspired by video games (2) ...I'm not saying which, and thats final.
> inspired by comics (4) ...mostly something from Thor.
> inspired by animation (3) ...Yellow Submarine, Dragonball Z, D&D cartoon.
> inspired by an existing D&D monster (1) ...lets just say its my favourite D&D monster of all time.




Sounds sweet to me!



> Also I suppose you could say Simons creatures the Mercury Golem and Prismatic Pudding (both given a facelift by yours truly) were inspired by famous movie monsters.




Your previous descriptions of the mercury golem reminded me of the T-1000 in Terminator 2.


----------



## Upper_Krust

I appreciate the support guys! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Hey U_K.




Hiya mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> MWUHAHAHAHAHAHA!
> 
> I think you're talking in the range of doing 20-30K damage on average (low physical factor).




Slightly less but not by much. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I can't wait to see this thing (the neutronium).




I certainly think there are monsters that will see more use, but I really like the neutronium golem myself.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I would imagine that the black hole golem would be to the sun (in terms of relative power) what the neutronium golem is to a planet.




That would be a rough analogy, but probably fairly accurate. The Black Hole Golem is only 100 times heavier after all.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> What kind of being would create a neutronium golem?




I think only a Time Lord could create one unassisted. Lesser beings would have to work together to create one.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> My guess is these things would be created to defend space sectors.




He he, cheeky. Using my own superhero framework to corral me eh!?

I have actually expanded that by the way so there were three categories after Class 50,000.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> In reference to the infinitaur:
> 
> Do I get a prize?




I'll think about it.   



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Your previous descriptions of the mercury golem reminded me of the T-1000 in Terminator 2.




Almost certainly thats where Simon got the inspiration for it (and countless other T-1000 variants in D&D I'm sure). I think Simons captures the spirit of the 'monster' besy though.


----------



## historian

Hey Krust.  



> That would be a rough analogy, but probably fairly accurate. The Black Hole Golem is only 100 times heavier after all.




Wow.  



> I think only a Time Lord could create one unassisted. Lesser beings would have to work together to create one.




I'm beginning to think that I've (pretty badly) underestimated the power of immortals after greater god classification, and Time Lords (and I'm sure High Lords for that matter too).

I never was able to come up with a decent response for identifying a Time Lord from real word mythology.  But I do think I could give one example (that I think you've previously identified).  



> He he, cheeky. Using my own superhero framework to corral me eh!?
> 
> I have actually expanded that by the way so there were three categories after Class 50,000.




I had to.  

Expanding beyond Class 50,000 is wild (I'm recalling that a Class 50,000 energy emission would destry a universe).  Beyond a universe, I can (at least metaphorically) imagine a multiverse and maybe a megaverse.  Is there a terminology that you use?



> Almost certainly thats where Simon got the inspiration for it (and countless other T-1000 variants in D&D I'm sure). I think Simons captures the spirit of the 'monster' best though.




I'll anxiously await.


----------



## Upper_Krust

historian said:
			
		

> Hey Krust.




Hiya mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Wow.




Well to put it into perspective the Neutronium Golem is 10 trillion times heavier than the Iron Golem.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I'm beginning to think that I've (pretty badly) underestimated the power of immortals after greater god classification, and Time Lords (and I'm sure High Lords for that matter too).




Well the Sidereals are not 'that' much more powerful because I wanted them to be viable opponents for immortals. If I really wanted them to be truly reflective of what they govern then I would up them considerably - but of course then they would be next to useless...in d20 anyway.

The Time Lords go from about CR 1000 to as far as you want them to go.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I never was able to come up with a decent response for identifying a Time Lord from real word mythology.  But I do think I could give one example (that I think you've previously identified).




Oh really...?



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I had to.
> 
> Expanding beyond Class 50,000 is wild (I'm recalling that a Class 50,000 energy emission would destry a universe).  Beyond a universe, I can (at least metaphorically) imagine a multiverse and maybe a megaverse.  Is there a terminology that you use?




Well when I mean expand I really mean stretch. So destroying a Universe would now be Class 500,000 rather than Class 50,000.

So you would have:

Class 5000 - Planet
Class 10,000 - Star
Class 30,000 - Solar System
Class 50,000 - Nebula
Class 100,000 - Galaxy
Class 300,000 - Supercluster
Class 500,000 - Universe
Class 1,000,000 - Beyond



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I'll anxiously await.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Well to put it into perspective the Neutronium Golem is 10 trillion times heavier than the Iron Golem.




I think you should make them all the same weight, and just reduce their size as appropriate.

(j/k)


----------



## Verequus

Hi U_K!

Maybe you like this thread? It is about the creature type system and how it could be improved. http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=105724


----------



## Iceflame55

I decided to drop in to see if I could find a reprieve from frustrated implosion; no such luck I see. I have a matter I request a vote on: all those in favor of locking Upper-Krust up to finish the immortals Handbook(s) raise your hand(s). This includes a provision of aggressively obliterating anything and everything that dares attempt to distract him from this truly noble and Epic undertaking!!! *Raises both hands in affirmation*


----------



## Fieari

*raises hand*

As a side note, I had previously informed my players that the campaign they are in will extend "Well into Epic Levels", which is kinda true, although I do intend to make them dieties, which is a little bit above epic.  At any rate, just today I saw them flipping through the epic level handbook, planning out where they want to go, and I told them not to bother, I'm probably not going to be using it, but rather the Immortals Handbook.

They are now added to the list of people EAGERLY awaiting the books.  True, they're only level 5 now, but these buggers want to think AHEAD.  They're bucking at the gate man!


----------



## CRGreathouse

Fieari said:
			
		

> They are now added to the list of people EAGERLY awaiting the books.  True, they're only level 5 now, but these buggers want to think AHEAD.  They're bucking at the gate man!




Bah, you think *you* have issues -- I had a player ascend to quasi-deity without the benefit of the IH!


----------



## historian

Hey Krust!



> Well the Sidereals are not 'that' much more powerful because I wanted them to be viable opponents for immortals. If I really wanted them to be truly reflective of what they govern then I would up them considerably - but of course then they would be next to useless...in d20 anyway.




Sounds cool to me.




> The Time Lords go from about CR 1000 to as far as you want them to go.




Now you're talking.  

I have often wondered how you square CRs with the average damage a being could do -- another way of thinking about this is what is the minimum rank being (based on CR) that could reasonably expect to destroy (insert object here) with its most powerful attack.  It seems like a multiplier of x10.5 for CR (WOTC) might be a reasonable proxy but I'm not sure.  Is this even in the ballpark?

Regarding Time Lords, I think that you previously mentioned Grimnismal as a possibility.  My understanding is that Time Lords differ from the rest of us in that they exist in more that the standard four or five dimensions.  

I'm still stumped as to naming a Time Lord from modern mythology.



> Well when I mean expand I really mean stretch. So destroying a Universe would now be Class 500,000 rather than Class 50,000.
> 
> So you would have:
> 
> Class 5000 - Planet
> Class 10,000 - Star
> Class 30,000 - Solar System
> Class 50,000 - Nebula
> Class 100,000 - Galaxy
> Class 300,000 - Supercluster
> Class 500,000 - Universe
> Class 1,000,000 - Beyond




Wow, you've quantified beyond.  Once again, you've boldly ventured where no other RPGer has previously.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey all!

You guys are the best for sticking by me. 

Were it not for my own indomitable will I would be crushed by the despair of mine own ineptitude in 'closing the deal' as it were.

However I can report that its all shaping up very good indeed, so that spurs me on too.


----------



## Upper_Krust

historian said:
			
		

> Hey Krust!




Hiya historian mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Sounds cool to me.




You know it makes sense. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Now you're talking.
> 
> I have often wondered how you square CRs with the average damage a being could do -- another way of thinking about this is what is the minimum rank being (based on CR) that could reasonably expect to destroy (insert object here) with its most powerful attack.  It seems like a multiplier of x10.5 for CR (WOTC) might be a reasonable proxy but I'm not sure.  Is this even in the ballpark?




I generally use HD as the base number of dice. With dice type dependant upon the effect itself. Of course then there are numerous possible modifiers.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Regarding Time Lords, I think that you previously mentioned Grimnismal as a possibility.




If I did (?) I may have been wrong, although I suppose I could have been drawing upon his multi-dimensional nature. But hes probably more sidereal in principle. Or weaker, given how easily he was dispatched.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> My understanding is that Time Lords differ from the rest of us in that they exist in more that the standard four or five dimensions.




Well they exist outside 'your' dimension(s)  



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I'm still stumped as to naming a Time Lord from modern mythology.




You'll be kicking yourself when you find out. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Wow, you've quantified beyond.  Once again, you've boldly ventured where no other RPGer has previously.




He he! 

Well it wasn't that much of a leap, but I was just thinking what would happen if two true Beyonders faced off.


----------



## devilish

Iceflame55 said:
			
		

> I decided to drop in to see if I could find a reprieve from frustrated implosion; no such luck I see. I have a matter I request a vote on: all those in favor of locking Upper-Krust up to finish the immortals Handbook(s) raise your hand(s). This includes a provision of aggressively obliterating anything and everything that dares attempt to distract him from this truly noble and Epic undertaking!!! *Raises both hands in affirmation*




*Raises Hand* 
Though for his efforts, we won't just lock him up in some dingy
hole-in-the-wall, chained to his desk and dice.  

A lavish penthouse apartment with people to attend to his needs.

Locked up, of course, but comfortable.

And the obliteration part --- have to keep that in....


----------



## Anabstercorian

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> You'll be kicking yourself when you find out.




Dr. Who, or Superman.


----------



## CRGreathouse

*raises hand*



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> You'll be kicking yourself when you find out.




Father Time?


----------



## Anabstercorian

String, or nothing!


----------



## CRGreathouse

Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> String, or nothing!




which was not quite fair---working in two guesses at once. (Riddles in the Dark)


----------



## Kavon

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> You'll be kicking yourself when you find out.



Modern Mythology eh...
What? YHVH/God/Allah? *wild guess* :3


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey all! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> Dr. Who, or Superman.




No.

...and Superman is approx. Intermediate Deity level power. 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Father Time?




Non. 

Zurvan Akurana is a First One.



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> String, or nothing!




Nope.



			
				Kavon said:
			
		

> Modern Mythology eh...
> What? YHVH/God/Allah? *wild guess*




I can't give it to you...although you were the closest. 'GOD' is of course the default Supreme Being.


----------



## Anabstercorian

Satan?  The Adversary?  Any of the other pseudonyms for...  *The Ultimate Evil*?


----------



## Alzrius

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> ...and Superman is approx. Intermediate Deity level power.




Well, Doomsday has to be at least a Greater deity then right? (or maybe a higher-ranked Intermediate deity...U_K, do you have differing levels of divine might within a classification, e.g. a divine rank 11 deity vs. a divine rank 15 deity, since both are Intermediate gods?)

As for the Time Lord...I'm guessing Brahman, the Hindu ideal of Everything?


----------



## Zoatebix

Ooh - Satan and Brahman both sound good...


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi there! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> Satan?  The Adversary?  Any of the other pseudonyms for...  *The Ultimate Evil*?




The ultimate evil is, at best, a First One.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Well, Doomsday has to be at least a Greater deity then right?




Slightly more powerful Intermediate Deity.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> (or maybe a higher-ranked Intermediate deity...U_K, do you have differing levels of divine might within a classification, e.g. a divine rank 11 deity vs. a divine rank 15 deity, since both are Intermediate gods?)




No. But of course a 70th-level Intermediate Deity (for example) would be more powerful than a 60th-level Intermediate Deity.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> As for the Time Lord...I'm guessing Brahman, the Hindu ideal of Everything?




Nope. Greater Deity...although I consider Brahman to be the most powerful of Earths Pantheon Heads with Odin and Ahriman not far behind.


----------



## Kavon

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I can't give it to you...although you were the closest. 'GOD' is of course the default Supreme Being.



Hmm... Hmm... Metatron? :3


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Kavon matey! 



			
				Kavon said:
			
		

> Hmm... Hmm... Metatron? :3




Your getting colder. 

Metatron is a First One,


----------



## Kavon

*ponders ponders*



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hey Kavon matey!



Hey U_K 





			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Your getting colder.
> 
> Metatron is a First One,



So... Something between GOD and Metatron.. Hmm...
As far as I can recall, in the celestial order, there isn't anything between the two (Metatron was GOD's voice, so He could give his commands to the other angels, and such), Samael would be a first one too, as well as Michael et al...so my guess is that it's not one of those... (which doesn't really count, does it?  ).
What would Asmodeus be again? Another First One?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Kavon said:
			
		

> *ponders ponders*








			
				Kavon said:
			
		

> Hey U_K




Hiya mate! 



			
				Kavon said:
			
		

> So... Something between GOD and Metatron.. Hmm...




Hmm indeed! 



			
				Kavon said:
			
		

> As far as I can recall, in the celestial order, there isn't anything between the two




My research says otherwise! 



			
				Kavon said:
			
		

> (Metatron was GOD's voice, so He could give his commands to the other angels, and such), Samael would be a first one too, as well as Michael et al...so my guess is that it's not one of those... (which doesn't really count, does it?  ).




I have Michael as an Old One. 



			
				Kavon said:
			
		

> What would Asmodeus be again? Another First One?




No. Although I suppose that depends upon your Asmodeus origin. Personally I have him as a Lesser deity/Arch-devil. But hes also an Aspect of Ahriman (Persian Greater Deity).

The ultimate evil is a First One (Satan/Tharizdun). 

Some people use Ahriman as the ultimate evil in which case Asmodeus would likely be an Elder One. But that supplants Satan with Ahriman, and also means you have to accomodate Ormazd/Ahura-Mazdah amongst the First Ones - then you have to move Zurvan Akarana up to Time Lord. Its all becomes a game of moving chairs. But the upshot of the ultimate evil version of Ahriman is that it buggers up the Persian Pantheon.


----------



## Kavon

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hiya mate!



Hey again 



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> My research says otherwise!



Ah, ok. I'm very very close then (only need to find a reference to someone like that, neh? :3 )



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I have Michael as an Old One.



Hmm... Yeah, makes sense.



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> No. Although I suppose that depends upon your Asmodeus origin.



Yeah, I guess that's why I couldn't remember (since I didn't know in the first place) 

Anyway, off to do something for school, afterwhich I'm going to look into this 'thing between Metatron and GOD' thing :3


----------



## Anabstercorian

Jesus, the Holy Spirit, or the Father.


----------



## historian

> Jesus, the Holy Spirit, or the Father.




I believe we have a winner.  

Although maybe Sananda might be what U_K uses to refer to Jesus?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Anabstercorian mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> Jesus, the Holy Spirit, or the Father.




I'll give you a half point for the Holy Spirit.


----------



## Kavon

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I'll give you a half point for the Holy Spirit.



Ok, so it's the Ascended Christ mumbo?

Jesus is the prophet, the Holy Spirit is his.. erm.. well.. holy spirit, and the Father is GOD, right? (never really got into this part of the whole thing, so I'm not sure what each part of the Triad/Trinity/whatever it was called does. I did consider the ascended Jesus for a moment, though)


----------



## Fieari

MODERATORS: If you feel I've gone too far with discussing real religion here, feel free to moderate, I understand.

By Christian doctrine, the three parts of the trinity are... really confusing, and seemingly contradictory but I suspect it's because we only tend to think in 3 dimensions, at most 4.  Each part of the triune God is in fact God, the whole of God, and AT THE SAME TIME only part of God, since one part can refer to the other two parts.

This is why Christains are monotheists, insist on being called monotheists, and yet sometimes others say that this is an incorrect label.  It's because the issue is kinda confusing.  Which makes sense for a supreme being, I'd think.  If you can understand your supreme being, how supreme is he/she/it, anyway?

Don't answer that.  In game only now.  Not a philosophy/religion debate.

I suppose that each aspect of God, technically isolated from the others in whatever way (Jesus on earth, being crusified, as the Father turns His back?) could possibly be called a Time Lord?  Is that how it goes?

Argh, and yet you said "Half-a-Point" in terms of the Holy Spirit, ignoring the other two... so likely something else is going on here...


----------



## devilish

Fieari said:
			
		

> I suppose that each aspect of God, technically isolated from the others in whatever way (Jesus on earth, being crusified, as the Father turns His back?) could possibly be called a Time Lord?  Is that how it goes?
> 
> Argh, and yet you said "Half-a-Point" in terms of the Holy Spirit, ignoring the other two... so likely something else is going on here...




Is it 1/2 a point for the Holy Spirit aspect and 1/2 point for the Jesus/Son
aspect, with the Father aspect being the Supreme Being?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Kavon mate! 



			
				Kavon said:
			
		

> Ok, so it's the Ascended Christ mumbo?




Well I wouldn't quite put it like that.   



			
				Kavon said:
			
		

> Jesus is the prophet,




Well there would be more ways of tackling Jesus than there would Asmodeus, but thats not something I'm going to expound upon in the IH obviously.

Personally I would be more interested in doing something with Adam Qadmon (who is almost certainly the inspiration for Adam Warlock in the Marvel Universe), a sort of Eternal Messiah (in the vein of Moorcocks Eternal Champion).



			
				Kavon said:
			
		

> the Holy Spirit is his.. erm.. well.. holy spirit,




There is more to my own view of this entity than that - which is why I only awarded a half-point for the suggestion.



			
				Kavon said:
			
		

> and the Father is GOD, right?




The exact nature of the Supreme Being is up to individual DMs to address or ignore.



			
				Kavon said:
			
		

> (never really got into this part of the whole thing, so I'm not sure what each part of the Triad/Trinity/whatever it was called does. I did consider the ascended Jesus for a moment, though)




As I mentioned above I think Adam Qadmon is a much more approachable messiah figure and it lets you avoid offending anyone.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Fieari mate! 



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> If you can understand your supreme being, how supreme is he/she/it, anyway?




I think the literal translation works best here. Just make the Supreme Being the most powerful being.



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> I suppose that each aspect of God, technically isolated from the others in whatever way (Jesus on earth, being crusified, as the Father turns His back?) could possibly be called a Time Lord?  Is that how it goes?




You're getting warmer in a roundabout way.



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> Argh, and yet you said "Half-a-Point" in terms of the Holy Spirit, ignoring the other two... so likely something else is going on here...




Well you get half a point for 'spirit', the concept I have found is loosely tied in to the 'holy spirit' without actually being the holy spirit - hows that for cryptic.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				devilish said:
			
		

> Is it 1/2 a point for the Holy Spirit aspect and 1/2 point for the Jesus/Son aspect, with the Father aspect being the Supreme Being?




No its half a point for putting the 'spirit' in holy spirit and thats it. 

The Supreme Being is not a Time Lord so you get no points for proffering possible Supreme Being candidates.


----------



## Kavon

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hi Kavon mate!



Hey U_K 



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Well I wouldn't quite put it like that.



Yeah, I wasn't sure how to call it 



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Well there would be more ways of tackling Jesus than there would Asmodeus, but thats not something I'm going to expound upon in the IH obviously.



Yeah, I figured as much. That's why I didn't bother to put his name in.



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Personally I would be more interested in doing something with Adam Qadmon (who is almost certainly the inspiration for Adam Warlock in the Marvel Universe), a sort of Eternal Messiah (in the vein of Moorcocks Eternal Champion).



Is that the Adam from the Adam and Eve thing?



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> There is more to my own view of this entity than that - which is why I only awarded a half-point for the suggestion.



Hmm... Is it the.. the.. what's would it be called.. the collection of all spirits? We are Borg of spirits (resistance is futile)? Erm.. Damn, can't think right now 



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> The exact nature of the Supreme Being is up to individual DMs to address or ignore.



Yeah, I was just checking if I had the whole trinity thing right, since I never really knew which was which.



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> As I mentioned above I think Adam Qadmon is a much more approachable messiah figure and it lets you avoid offending anyone.



Yeah, you're right.
Ok, change subject since it's not the Holy Spirit :3


----------



## Iceflame55

*Nice to know I'm not alone for advocating Drastic Actions!!!!!!!!!!!!!*



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> *raises hand*
> 
> As a side note, I had previously informed my players that the campaign they are in will extend "Well into Epic Levels", which is kinda true, although I do intend to make them dieties, which is a little bit above epic.  At any rate, just today I saw them flipping through the epic level handbook, planning out where they want to go, and I told them not to bother, I'm probably not going to be using it, but rather the Immortals Handbook.
> 
> They are now added to the list of people EAGERLY awaiting the books.  True, they're only level 5 now, but these buggers want to think AHEAD.  They're bucking at the gate man!





One reason I'm impatiently waiting for IH is I'm a perfectionist. I've got the Epic Handbook and Deities and Demigods mind, but neither one has lived up to expectations. Speaking of IH; Upper Krust, any tenative Ideas on the release sceduale? I know you're putting the Monster section out first, but any news at this point might help me maintain a GRAM of sanity at any rate


----------



## Angel Tarragon

Soon, my fellow gamers! Patience is a virtue. It should be out before the year is over.


----------



## devilish

Frukathka said:
			
		

> Soon, my fellow gamers! Patience is a virtue. It should be out before the year is over.




Is that just the IH Monster book or do you mean the Apotheosis manual
too (pleasepleasepleasepleaseplease!!)

-D


----------



## BSF

According to www.immortalshandbook.com:

Release Dates* : 

Immortals Handbook Apotheosis pdf: Autumn 2004

Immortals Handbook Grimoire pdf: Autumn 2004

Immortals Handbook Bestiary pdf: Autumn 2004

Immortals Handbook Chronicle pdf: Autumn 2004

Immortals Handbook print version: Winter 2004

Immortals Index - Celtic Mythology pdf: Winter 2004

*tentative until confirmed

Though we are rapidly approaching the end of Autumn and there really isn't a whole lot of winter in 2004.  I am guessing that those dates are no longer accurate.


----------



## Revenge of the Bjorn

Okay a few random guesses for this guessing game here:
Azrael? 
Adam Qadmon? (Worth a shot )
some sort of Demiurge?
Sophia?  
Or in relation to the last two does it relate to Gnosticism in any way?


----------



## Zuoken

It looks like Upper_Krust has us all stumped here   .

I'm not even going to try to guess at that one, the Judeo-Christian faiths are not my specialty.


----------



## Alzrius

This is straying mildly off-topic, but does anyone know of any D&D articles/products, etc. that have stats for Jesus? Edition doesn't matter, neither does it if it's second- or third-party status, but something that isn't off a fansite would be nice.

I ask because, for fun, I wanted to set up a slugfest between Jesus and Satan (from the old "Politics of Hell" article in _Dragon_) for a friend of mine, just for laughs (really it'd just be me referencing the stats and making jokes, but it's all good).


----------



## CRGreathouse

Alzrius said:
			
		

> I ask because, for fun, I wanted to set up a slugfest between Jesus and Satan (from the old "Politics of Hell" article in _Dragon_) for a friend of mine, just for laughs (really it'd just be me referencing the stats and making jokes, but it's all good).




Bah.  Look at the beginning of Luke 4, and you'll see it wouldn't be much of a competition anyway.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi BardStephenFox mate! 



			
				BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> According to www.immortalshandbook.com:
> 
> Release Dates* :
> 
> Immortals Handbook Apotheosis pdf: Autumn 2004
> 
> Immortals Handbook Grimoire pdf: Autumn 2004
> 
> Immortals Handbook Bestiary pdf: Autumn 2004
> 
> Immortals Handbook Chronicle pdf: Autumn 2004
> 
> Immortals Handbook print version: Winter 2004
> 
> Immortals Index - Celtic Mythology pdf: Winter 2004
> 
> *tentative until confirmed
> 
> Though we are rapidly approaching the end of Autumn and there really isn't a whole lot of winter in 2004.  I am guessing that those dates are no longer accurate.




Well they were 'tentative' lets remember.   

I just updated the website with the new release dates and a more up to date bestiary list.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Bjorn mate! 



			
				Revenge of the Bjorn said:
			
		

> Okay a few random guesses for this guessing game here:
> Azrael?




Nope.



			
				Revenge of the Bjorn said:
			
		

> Adam Qadmon? (Worth a shot )




Nope. Cheeky - I'm not going to give it to you. 



			
				Revenge of the Bjorn said:
			
		

> some sort of Demiurge?




Can you be more specific, you are very warm.



			
				Revenge of the Bjorn said:
			
		

> Sophia?




The same half point Anabstercorian was awarded. 



			
				Revenge of the Bjorn said:
			
		

> Or in relation to the last two does it relate to Gnosticism in any way?




Possibly.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Alzrius mate! 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> This is straying mildly off-topic, but does anyone know of any D&D articles/products, etc. that have stats for Jesus? Edition doesn't matter, neither does it if it's second- or third-party status, but something that isn't off a fansite would be nice.
> 
> I ask because, for fun, I wanted to set up a slugfest between Jesus and Satan (from the old "Politics of Hell" article in _Dragon_) for a friend of mine, just for laughs (really it'd just be me referencing the stats and making jokes, but it's all good).




You could always have Adam Warlock fight Mephistopheles...by the way the two have fought in the comics and Adam Warlock won.

http://www.classicmarvel.com/cast/adamwarlock.htm

http://www.classicmarvel.com/cast/mephisto.htm

Or try and convert Adam Warlocks stats to D&D.

I seem to recall S'mon had stats for Jesus (16th-level Cleric) way back when, although we never got to use them.


----------



## Kavon

Hey U_K 

Let's see...

It's between the supreme one, and his.. voice (is that what you can call Metatron)?
The 'spirit' part of the holy spirit was half a point, Sophia was half a point.
Demiurge was close, but not specific enough.. It's possibly related to gnosticism..

Hmm...

*checks out some stuff*

Where would you put these Aeons? They're something like angels, or.. what? (I'm not sure, I'm still reading through this stuff, and I forgot the details of the thing I read quite some time ago)



> According to Valentinus the Demiurge was the offspring of a union of Achamoth (he káta sophía or lower wisdom) with matter. And as Achamoth herself was only the daughter of Sophía the last of the thirty Æons... *snip*



This seems to tell me Aeons are above the Demiurge, and Sophia was simply one of them.

*checks some more*



> These Æons belong to the purely ideal, noumenal, intelligible, or supersensible world; they are immaterial, they are hypostatic ideas. Together with the source from which they emanate they form the pleroma.



Sophia the Aeon is half a point, and "spirit" is another half point.

Is it this combined thing? This Pleroma? Or is it the Aeons in and of themselves? Still something different?

The First Source is GOD, the Supreme Being. Together with the Aeons it forms the Pleroma (I think?). From one of the Aeons (the Higher Wisdom, Sophia) came this Achamoth, the Lower Wisdom, which mothered the Demiurge together with matter. The Demiurge created the world, and thought itself the Supreme Being.

Something like that.. right? Which is what in all that? 

Edit: Hmm.. Also found something on an Aeon called Soter, which was identified, among others, as Christ and/or Jesus (it seems some people see them as two seperate people/things in gnostism o.o ). This seems to relate somewhat to the Holy Spirit/Ghost (it being an Aeon and all).


----------



## Upper_Krust

Kavon said:
			
		

> Hey U_K




Hi Kavon mate! 



			
				Kavon said:
			
		

> Let's see...
> 
> It's between the supreme one, and his.. voice (is that what you can call Metatron)?




Metatron is the ultimate personification of good within the standard multiverse.



			
				Kavon said:
			
		

> The 'spirit' part of the holy spirit was half a point, Sophia was half a point.
> 
> Demiurge was close, but not specific enough.. It's possibly related to gnosticism..
> 
> Absolutely.
> 
> Hmm...
> 
> *checks out some stuff*
> 
> Where would you put these Aeons?




Aeons is another name for Time Lord (in fact Aeon would be the esoteric name, Time Lord would be the exoteric name).



			
				Kavon said:
			
		

> They're something like angels, or.. what? (I'm not sure, I'm still reading through this stuff, and I forgot the details of the thing I read quite some time ago)




Try Aspects of GOD, fragments of omnipotence, etc... 



			
				Kavon said:
			
		

> This seems to tell me Aeons are above the Demiurge, and Sophia was simply one of them.
> 
> *checks some more*




Aeons and Demiurges are technically the same thing except that the latter have divorced some of their power to create a multiverse.



			
				Kavon said:
			
		

> Sophia the Aeon is half a point, and "spirit" is another half point.
> 
> Is it this combined thing? This Pleroma? Or is it the Aeons in and of themselves? Still something different?




The Time Lords are Aeons. Pleroma would be related to the Akashic energy.

I'll give you a full point for Aeons. I probably should have given you a full point for Sophia as well although that wasn't one of the main Time Lords I have found.



			
				Kavon said:
			
		

> The First Source is GOD, the Supreme Being. Together with the Aeons it forms the Pleroma (I think?). From one of the Aeons (the Higher Wisdom, Sophia) came this Achamoth, the Lower Wisdom, which mothered the Demiurge together with matter. The Demiurge created the world, and thought itself the Supreme Being.
> 
> Something like that.. right? Which is what in all that?




The Demiurge would be the creator of a multiverse, but would itself be subordinate to the Supreme Being who created all Aeons.



			
				Kavon said:
			
		

> Edit: Hmm.. Also found something on an Aeon called Soter, which was identified, among others, as Christ and/or Jesus (it seems some people see them as two seperate people/things in gnostism o.o ). This seems to relate somewhat to the Holy Spirit/Ghost (it being an Aeon and all).




There are quite a number of Aeons. I remember finding a site a while back which had over 30 Aeon names however the names alone don't really give you anything to go on so I only use those with at least a snippet of info or personality.

There are three main Aeons in mythology/the occult, then maybe three or four (including Sophia) that are not so familiar. Then there are over 30 names of other Aeons without details.

Of course then you have the High Lords.


----------



## Knight Otu

For what it's worth, Wikipedia has something to say about aeons.

 And somewhat off-topic, some of you might find the "Industrial Revolution" by Serpenteyes interesting. *UK, you are not allowed to look! * You have to finish that book, after all.


----------



## Fieari

Hey Cool, so when I said Wisdom way back when, I -was- right, although I couldn't connect it with a mythological name... just like you said.

I like the name Aeon better then Time Lord, myself... Time Lord sounds much weaker than what they are, in my humble opinion.  But whatever.  I can call them Aeons easily enough.

The only problem I could forsee, with my players, is that they might start thinking Final Fantasy... FFX Aeons are no where NEAR mythological Aeons in power.

And neat!  I already have a "Pantheon" of sorts written up for my campaigns Time Lords, though I didn't know it... and ordered them and all kinds of things.

Probable Top 10 ranked in my campaign:

#1: Supreme Being (The Composer)

#2: Aeon: Wisdom  (Probably High Lord)
#3: (Tied)Aeon: Order
#3: (Tied)Aeon: Love
#4: Aeon: Freedom
#5: Aeon: Life
#6: Aeon: Sin

#7: First One: Death
#8: First One: Darkness
#9: First One: Entropy
#10: First One: Dischord


----------



## Kavon

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hi Kavon mate!



Hey U_K 




			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Metatron is the ultimate personification of good within the standard multiverse.



Ah, ok, that way 
The Satan is his opposite, then? What do Michael and the other high end angels do?




			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Aeons is another name for Time Lord (in fact Aeon would be the esoteric name, Time Lord would be the exoteric name).



Ooh, nifty :3




			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Try Aspects of GOD, fragments of omnipotence, etc...



Oh, right, like them being a part of the Pleroma, and such?




			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Aeons and Demiurges are technically the same thing except that the latter have divorced some of their power to create a multiverse.



Ok, that makes sense 




			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> The Time Lords are Aeons. Pleroma would be related to the Akashic energy.



Yeah, the Pleroma is the combined thing, much like the Akashic (still not sure how to use this word).. thing, right? :3




			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I'll give you a full point for Aeons. I probably should have given you a full point for Sophia as well although that wasn't one of the main Time Lords I have found.



Yeah, it would be same as saying Demiurge, right? Not specific enough.




			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> The Demiurge would be the creator of a multiverse, but would itself be subordinate to the Supreme Being who created all Aeons.



Ok, so each universe would have a Demiurge Aeon who created it?




			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> There are quite a number of Aeons. I remember finding a site a while back which had over 30 Aeon names however the names alone don't really give you anything to go on so I only use those with at least a snippet of info or personality.



Yeah, in my quick search last night, I found reference to 30 or 28 Aeons, but only two that were actually named (Sophia and Soter.. and the Demiurge and Lower Wisdom, I guess too, but I don't think they count those last two in the list).




			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> There are three main Aeons in mythology/the occult, then maybe three or four (including Sophia) that are not so familiar. Then there are over 30 names of other Aeons without details.



Wooh 



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Of course then you have the High Lords.



Where do you get all this stuff?!  :3

Edit: With that Wikipedia link Knight Otu posted, are some of those high end Aeons on those lists High Lords (Bythos and Sige, etc)?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Knight Otu mate! 



			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> For what it's worth, Wikipedia has something to say about aeons.




Thanks for the link mate...a few clues about the High Lords on that page, although far be it for me to point them out. 



			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> And somewhat off-topic, some of you might find the "Industrial Revolution" by Serpenteyes interesting. *UK, you are not allowed to look! * You have to finish that book, after all.




He he - okay.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Fieari mate! 



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> Hey Cool, so when I said Wisdom way back when, I -was- right, although I couldn't connect it with a mythological name... just like you said.




Indeed



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> I like the name Aeon better then Time Lord, myself... Time Lord sounds much weaker than what they are, in my humble opinion.  But whatever.  I can call them Aeons easily enough.




I actually had 'Time Lord' long before I connected them to Aeons. Although the names fit really well and ostensibly refered to beings of the same rank anyway.



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> The only problem I could forsee, with my players, is that they might start thinking Final Fantasy... FFX Aeons are no where NEAR mythological Aeons in power.




It would be interesting to convert the FF Aeons over. I have to be honest I still don't think they have topped FFVII.



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> And neat!  I already have a "Pantheon" of sorts written up for my campaigns Time Lords, though I didn't know it... and ordered them and all kinds of things.
> 
> Probable Top 10 ranked in my campaign:
> 
> #1: Supreme Being (The Composer)
> 
> #2: Aeon: Wisdom  (Probably High Lord)
> #3: (Tied)Aeon: Order
> #3: (Tied)Aeon: Love
> #4: Aeon: Freedom
> #5: Aeon: Life
> #6: Aeon: Sin
> 
> #7: First One: Death
> #8: First One: Darkness
> #9: First One: Entropy
> #10: First One: Dischord




Glad to see such things are already inspiring people. 

I have been pondering whether Ao would be a Sidereal or an Eternal (Aeon, probable Demiurge)


----------



## Upper_Krust

Kavon said:
			
		

> Hey U_K




Hiya mate! 



			
				Kavon said:
			
		

> Ah, ok, that way
> The Satan is his opposite, then?




Yes.



			
				Kavon said:
			
		

> What do Michael and the other high end angels do?




Michael is one of the Seraphim, they will be detailed in the Bestiary. 



			
				Kavon said:
			
		

> Oh, right, like them being a part of the Pleroma, and such?
> 
> Yeah, the Pleroma is the combined thing, much like the Akashic (still not sure how to use this word).. thing, right? :3




All energy sources boil down to the one thing eventually. So it doesn't matter what you call it.



			
				Kavon said:
			
		

> Yeah, it would be same as saying Demiurge, right? Not specific enough.




Yep.



			
				Kavon said:
			
		

> Ok, so each universe would have a Demiurge Aeon who created it?




Each universe would be a Demiurge who created it. 



			
				Kavon said:
			
		

> Yeah, in my quick search last night, I found reference to 30 or 28 Aeons, but only two that were actually named (Sophia and Soter.. and the Demiurge and Lower Wisdom, I guess too, but I don't think they count those last two in the list).




As you can see from Knight Otu's link there is not simply a single list.



			
				Kavon said:
			
		

> Where do you get all this stuff?!  :3




Most of it is out there somewhere, I think all I have done is make some (hopefully keen) observations and bring a bit of order to the chaos. Not to mention marry that with some excellent immortal rules. 



			
				Kavon said:
			
		

> Edit: With that Wikipedia link Knight Otu posted, are some of those high end Aeons on those lists High Lords (Bythos and Sige, etc)?




They might be, although that list actually has none of the major Time Lords or High Lords most people will be familiar with* on it. 

*When they hear the names.


----------



## historian

This is all incredibly cool.



> Aeons and Demiurges are technically the same thing except that the latter have divorced some of their power to create a multiverse.




 

Maybe IG Thanos is just an overpowered first one rather than an Aeon.



> They might be, although that list actually has none of the major Time Lords or High Lords most people will be familiar with* on it.


----------



## Kavon

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hiya mate!



Hey U_K 




			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Michael is one of the Seraphim, they will be detailed in the Bestiary.



Oh right, of course 




			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> All energy sources boil down to the one thing eventually. So it doesn't matter what you call it.



Yeah. So the Akashic (thingythingthingy) and the Pleroma share the same.. funtion in their respective mythology.




			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Each universe would be a Demiurge who created it.



Ohh, ok. They *are* the universe itself. I see, I see 




			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> As you can see from Knight Otu's link there is not simply a single list.



Yeah, there's lots of different variations on Gnosticism.




			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Most of it is out there somewhere, I think all I have done is make some (hopefully keen) observations and bring a bit of order to the chaos. Not to mention marry that with some excellent immortal rules.




Can't wait to see the result :3




			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> They might be, although that list actually has none of the major Time Lords or High Lords most people will be familiar with* on it.
> 
> *When they hear the names.



Hmm... Which direction would I be thinking when I'm looking for more known ones? Babylonian (Tiamat and Apsu and such)? Or would that be something different still?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Kavon said:
			
		

> Hey U_K




Hiya mate! 



			
				Kavon said:
			
		

> Hmm... Which direction would I be thinking when I'm looking for more known ones?




Not sure that I could give you a clue that wouldn't totally give it to you...although there is one name embedded in gnosticism that I am very surprised no one has mentioned yet. 



			
				Kavon said:
			
		

> Babylonian (Tiamat and Apsu and such)? Or would that be something different still?




Mythological Tiamat is probably Greater Power (more like Takhisis rather than the standard Tiamat we are familiar with, also Takhisis alignment is much more accurate so the Lesser God version of Tiamat is almost certainly an aspect of the more powerful version). Apsu is an Elder One.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi historian mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> This is all incredibly cool.








			
				historian said:
			
		

> Maybe IG Thanos is just an overpowered first one rather than an Aeon.




Well IG Thanos defeated two First Ones, five Old Ones and an Elder One (off the top of my head without looking over the issues). So the Infinity Gauntlet must have given him Aeon level power (not to mention six specific Transcendental Powers*).

*


----------



## Knight Otu

Looks like Mongoose's Book of Immortals is officially out.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> Looks like Mongoose's Book of Immortals is officially out.




I'm actually looking forward to this book, just to see how someone elses take on the subject.

They also seem to be clearly divorcing Immortals and Gods so it will be interesting to see how that is laid out.

Its not apparent at this juncture if there are immortal monsters detailed in the book (I certainly hope so), it mentions that they 'have their predators', hopefully we will see them.


----------



## Wulf Ratbane

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I'm actually looking forward to this book, just to see how someone elses take on the subject.




Huh. I thought this WAS your book. Who's publishing yours, and what's the friggin hold-up? 


Wulf


----------



## jmucchiello

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> Huh. I thought this WAS your book. Who's publishing yours, and what's the friggin hold-up?



Yeah!!?


----------



## weiknarf

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Not sure that I could give you a clue that wouldn't totally give it to you...although there is one name embedded in gnosticism that I am very surprised no one has mentioned yet.




Ialdaboth?
Hermes?
Logos?
Gnosis?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya Wulf and jmuchiello



			
				Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> Huh. I thought this WAS your book.




A popular misconception given their choice of name.



			
				Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> Who's publishing yours, and what's the friggin hold-up?




The hold up is my fault - I could give you numerous excuses but I think they have grown stale by now.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey weiknarf! 



			
				weiknarf said:
			
		

> Ialdaboth?




First One. Another name for Satan if I remember correctly...?



			
				weiknarf said:
			
		

> Hermes?




Hermes Trismegistus would be the same as Adam Qadmon, Intermediate/Greater Power type level.



			
				weiknarf said:
			
		

> Logos?




An Aeon. One from Knight Otus link.



			
				weiknarf said:
			
		

> Gnosis?






None were the specific name I was thinking of, but nice try mate. 

I'll give people a small clue...its also a being in the Marvel Universe.


----------



## weiknarf

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I'll give people a small clue...its also a being in the Marvel Universe.




Eternity?


----------



## Alzrius

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I'll give people a small clue...its also a being in the Marvel Universe.




Infinity?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey U_K matey! 



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I'll give people a small clue...its also a being in the Marvel Universe.




...remember its also a gnostic/occult character (that was the first clue, prompting weiknarf's response).


----------



## Zoatebix

*Pretty off topic...*



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> ...It would be interesting to convert the FF Aeons over. I have to be honest I still don't think they have topped FFVII...




Personally, I don't think they've topped FFIV.  Well... that's _maybe_ stretching the truth of my opinion.  FFVI was an amazing total package, and FFVII gets _at the very least_ an honorable mention for best use of new technology.  After all these years, though, FFIV is still my favorite.

Hmmm... now I'm getting giddy thinking about doing up things from FFIV in Immortals Handbook d20 terms...


----------



## Zoatebix

Okay - 
With my friend Jon "Spedmaster" Moore and I working in tandem, I think we have it in three guesses (my money's on the third, his is on the first).

Yaltabaoth (AKA Yao, Bythos, Ialdaboth, and Ptahil?)
Yahweh (Which is tied to the first one, but still kind of distinct?) 
Abraxas

Abra-cadabra, baby!
-George (and Jon)

PS - That took some fun internet research!


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya Zoatebix mate! 



			
				Zoatebix said:
			
		

> Personally, I don't think they've topped FFIV.  Well... that's _maybe_ stretching the truth of my opinion.  FFVI was an amazing total package, and FFVII gets _at the very least_ an honorable mention for best use of new technology.  After all these years, though, FFIV is still my favorite.




I have been meaning to play FFX, but I just haven't got round to it. FFIX was a tad disappointing. FFVIII was good - especially the triple triad card game, that was so addictive...I wonder can you buy those cards for real.

I agree with you that the leap in technology helped FFVII, but how cool was Sephiroth...tres, thats how.   



			
				Zoatebix said:
			
		

> Hmmm... now I'm getting giddy thinking about doing up things from FFIV in Immortals Handbook d20 terms...




Well you might see a hint of FF in the Bestiary.


----------



## Upper_Krust

*Ladies and gentlemen we have a winner...*

Hello again! 



			
				Zoatebix said:
			
		

> Okay -
> With my friend Jon "Spedmaster" Moore and I working in tandem, I think we have it in three guesses (my money's on the third, his is on the first).
> 
> Yaltabaoth (AKA Yao, Bythos, Ialdaboth, and Ptahil?)
> Yahweh (Which is tied to the first one, but still kind of distinct?)
> Abraxas
> 
> Abra-cadabra, baby!
> -George (and Jon)
> 
> PS - That took some fun internet research!




Abraxas is correct (sorry Jon). 

I knew that Marvel clue would seal the deal.

I suppose the next question is can anyone name a High Lord.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Eremite mate! 



			
				Eremite said:
			
		

> Upper Krust,
> 
> How long before your IH hits the stands (or RPGNow)?




The bestiary pdf should be ready this month *he says nervously*.  :\


----------



## Eremite

Thanks for the reply, U_K; I'm really pleased to hear that. I've followed this and other threads since the early days of EN (I'm actually a lurker since the days of the first EN board... yeah, the real first one) so have been looking forward to this product for yonks.

Hmmm, I wonder if "yonks" only has meaning in Oz....


----------



## Fieari

With regards to FFIX and FFX...

I found that FFIX had a storyline that enthralled me... quite emotional and I got quite attached to the characters, and Freya's theme playing while the rain is falling on that ruined Kingdom is just such a poignant scene.  But the game itself bored me to tears, to the point where I didn't finish it.  I hear by hearsay alone that the ending to it sucks, which is dissapointing, but ah well.

I found that FFX's storyline wasn't as good.  Oh, it was interesting enough, but it didn't suck me in (YMMV).  Seven and six both had better stories, of course.  HOWEVER, the actual GAME part of FFX drew me in.  I actually find the combat INTERESTING, which is something I can't say for any of the other Final Fantasy games (Chrono Cross is the only other RPG where I enjoy the combat).  It's all about meaningful choices in combat, and FFX delivers there.

Right now, I'm playing FFX a second time, this time doing the "No Sphere Grid" game, which is the equivelent of playing any of the other FF games without ever leveling up (in FFX, you have the option whether you want to level or not).  The battle system is such that even with this limitation, the game is beatable, even playable.  And when the monster really are that much more powerful than you, the danger of situations takes on whole new meaning.  I mean, on my first play through, encounters offered no fear.  Heck, in ANY rpg, encounters offer no fear.  And now they do.

I ramble though.


Oh, and WRT Yonks?  I don't know about Oz, but Discworld occasionally makes use of the term.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi guys! 

I'm in the throes of finishing off the Dragon content of the Bestiary, this includes four epic dragons (Adamantite, Mithril, Polychromatic and Timber) and two space dragons* (space dragons are to epic dragons as epic dragons are to true dragons). I am also contemplating putting in one galactic dragon (I have designed three altogther: Nexus, Quasar and Ultima), but they may be too powerful. For instance the Wyrmling Quasar Dragon would have 416 Hit Dice. Would people be interested in seeing one in the Bestiary anyway, I'm sort of tickled by the idea as I have set out a simple method for people wanting to create dragons; epic dragons; space dragons and galactic dragons; however without a galactic dragon example that portion might seem somewhat anaemic.

Any thoughts?

*Yes that means a slight change to the list again, Diamond Dragons will be removed (I need to pick up the revised Psionics Handbook before I define them) and Anti-Matter and Time Dragons will be added.


----------



## Anabstercorian

I'd love to see the galaxy dragons.

Also, a thought that just occured to me - some people will probably be annoyed by the inclusion of 'sci-fi' in DnD.  I recommend you provide alternative names / flavor text for the more sciency-sounding space dragons.  Like, the Anti-Matter Dragon could be the Annihilation Dragon, and the Quasar Dragon could be the Dragon of Unbearable Dawn.


----------



## Zoatebix

If you're going to mention something, you might as well keep it consistent and give an example.  In other words: weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee cool stuff from U_K!  Yes please!


----------



## Fieari

Actually, I desperatly NEED massivly powerful dragons like that.  Remember how I said my plot was about "World Phoenix vs World Dragons" as I put it?  With the dragons eating worlds, and the phoenix remaking them?

I'm sure that the dragons you stat out won't have that in thier story, per se, but I can still use the stats.  If you don't include such dragons, I'm just going to need to do so myself.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> I'd love to see the galaxy dragons.




I may change the monikers 'Space' (Dragons) and 'Galactic' (Dragons) if I can come up with something better, but I don't want to use Cosmic or some of the other words I am using for other things already.



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> Also, a thought that just occured to me - some people will probably be annoyed by the inclusion of 'sci-fi' in DnD.




I think a touch of sci-fi at the top end of immortal gaming really adds to the cosmic flavour.



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> I recommend you provide alternative names / flavor text for the more sciency-sounding space dragons.




...how quickly you forget I am the undisputed king of alternate names. 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> Like, the Anti-Matter Dragon could be the Annihilation Dragon,




Remember, classically dragons are represented by either a material or a colour.



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> and the Quasar Dragon could be the Dragon of Unbearable Dawn.




Sounds a bit too specific, and I quite like Quasar Dragon.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Zoatebix mate! 



			
				Zoatebix said:
			
		

> If you're going to mention something, you might as well keep it consistent and give an example.  In other words: weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee cool stuff from U_K!  Yes please!




I appreciate the support dude!


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Fieari mate! 



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> Actually, I desperatly NEED massivly powerful dragons like that.  Remember how I said my plot was about "World Phoenix vs World Dragons" as I put it?  With the dragons eating worlds, and the phoenix remaking them?




The space dragons are massively powerful, the galactic dragons are bordering on the ridiculous. To put that in perspective Io would probably be a space dragon.



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> I'm sure that the dragons you stat out won't have that in thier story, per se, but I can still use the stats.  If you don't include such dragons, I'm just going to need to do so myself.




Well like I said I also have a very nice set of simple rules for people wanting to create their own dragons of any calibre.


----------



## Zoatebix

Remember back way back when I was bugging you about how you came up with your values for the classes in the Design Parameters of your v4 document?  These guys have done some excellent work that reminded me very much of your design paraments.  I think you'll get a kick out of it: http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=82858
Despite what it says in the first post, only the AU magic spreadsheet is on page 8 - the latest files are on page 9.
-George


----------



## Alzrius

Zoatebix said:
			
		

> Personally, I don't think they've topped FFIV.




Testify brother!


----------



## Alzrius

U_K, I personally think you should put in at least one universal dragon (preferrably, the weakest variety, since then the sequel Bestiary will have even stronger creatures...a sequel must, after all, top the original). Having a category of creatures laid out with not even one example creature to fill the category is indeed "anemic", and that's the mildest word I'd use.

On that note, will the next Bestiary have Universal dragons?


----------



## Zoatebix

Alzrius said:
			
		

> Testify brother!




[Cecil as televangelist]
"I did *stand* upon the mountain.  And I saw the minions of the Earth-Fiend: their empty lost eyes starin' at me, the smell of rottin' flesh and brimstone in the air!  There they were - reachin' their hands a-toward me!  Milon himself, hurling death, decay, and the power of sin - trying to claim my soul.  My black blade, *FULL* of the Eeeeee-vil that I had wrought on the world was all but useless in my hands against the dead; and yet I fought hard!  I fought for my very soul!  I was not alone in this fight: my companions - the young and old alike - ancient sage and two innocent CHILdren did fight beside me!  But our most important ally was faith!  Faith in our salvation, faith in the power of goodness to over come evil.  We all knew that salVAtion was a-comin.  My hold on the black blade was loose, and its hold over me was over!  I had come to the mountain to be sav-ed, to atone for my sins, to dedicate myself to combatin' the deeds of evil men - and salvation was just across this bridge!  No demon of earth, no fiend from deep in the ground, and no army of lost souls could hold me back."
[/Cecil as televangelist]

Close enough?  It sounds better when I read it out loud.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Actually, I'd prefer youto focus less on the ultra-powerful dragons and more on.... well, anything else.  I suspect I won't have a use for them.



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> Also, a thought that just occured to me - some people will probably be annoyed by the inclusion of 'sci-fi' in DnD.  I recommend you provide alternative names / flavor text for the more sciency-sounding space dragons.  Like, the Anti-Matter Dragon could be the Annihilation Dragon, and the Quasar Dragon could be the Dragon of Unbearable Dawn.




I would be in this category -- if you must use sci-fi concepts in the IH, at least give them names so I can more easily ignore the influence.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Zoatebix said:
			
		

> Remember back way back when I was bugging you about how you came up with your values for the classes in the Design Parameters of your v4 document?  These guys have done some excellent work that reminded me very much of your design paraments.  I think you'll get a kick out of their excellent work: http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=82858
> Despite what it says in the first post, only the AU magic spreadsheet is on page 8 - the latest files are on page 9.
> -George




Thanks for the link mate I had a glance over it, but I'll have a more detailed look later tonight.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Alzrius mate! 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> U_K, I personally think you should put in at least one universal dragon (preferrably, the weakest variety, since then the sequel Bestiary will have even stronger creatures...a sequel must, after all, top the original). Having a category of creatures laid out with not even one example creature to fill the category is indeed "anemic", and that's the mildest word I'd use.
> 
> On that note, will the next Bestiary have Universal dragons?




Universal Dragons would be Time Lords, in fact Galactic Dragons may already be more powerful than First Ones! So there may well be no need for Universal Dragons.

Neoteric* Dragons parallel mortals.
Epic Dragons parallel immortals.
Space Dragons parallel sidereals.
Galactic Dragons parallel eternals...?

*Standard.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi CRGreathouse mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Actually, I'd prefer youto focus less on the ultra-powerful dragons and more on.... well, anything else.  I suspect I won't have a use for them.




Well of the proposed seven dragons only the galactic dragon example would be considered ultra-powerful (beyond immortals); the youngest space dragons range from about Intermediate Power.

Also in incorporating the space/galactic dragons I removed one previous monster (Diamond Dragon) and added three, so its essentially two bonus monsters.  



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I would be in this category -- if you must use sci-fi concepts in the IH, at least give them names so I can more easily ignore the influence.




Have no fear, the dual names shall appear. 

Personally (as I mentioned before) I really like the marriage of sci-fi and fantasy at cosmic levels (which is specifically what we are talking about). So I may well have my favoured 'sci-fi influenced' name first and more fantasy inspired name second.


----------



## Greybar

Maybe I'm way off the (local) mainstream, but what I'm looking forward to most in your work in your "build your own" capability.  I'm not really interested in UKCRs above 40-50 or so, but your system has been a lot of fun for making/customizing creatures in the UKCR6-30 range for games that I've run or planned.  I'm looking forward to toying with building immortals at the UKCR50-100 range, but that's the tops probably.

Yeah, maybe that's crazy, but I think you'll find a lot more market in the range where most people play.  I mean, other than a half-dozen or so people here, who really plans to run games in the UKCR1000 range? More competition comes with more market, yes, but I think you've already shown that you can compete there.

john


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Greybar mate! 



			
				Greybar said:
			
		

> Maybe I'm way off the (local) mainstream, but what I'm looking forward to most in your work in your "build your own" capability.  I'm not really interested in UKCRs above 40-50 or so, but your system has been a lot of fun for making/customizing creatures in the UKCR6-30 range for games that I've run or planned.




Glad you have got a lot of use out of the system. I think in many ways its always nice to give people the tools to build their own games. 

So in the bestiary alone there are some hopefully useful articles on how to not only build various monsters, but also on how to build various monstous societies. As well as a very insightful* article on size, strength and weight that, mechanically at least, is as good as anything I've designed I think.

*If I do say so myself. 



			
				Greybar said:
			
		

> I'm looking forward to toying with building immortals at the UKCR50-100 range, but that's the tops probably.




Understandably thats the range (sort of Hero-deity to Lesser Deity) where I can see most people ending up playing. But if people don't know about challenges beyond CR 100, then they won't have any impetus to 'have at them'. In the same way that most people didn't try gaming over 20th-level until after the Epic Level Handbook came out.



			
				Greybar said:
			
		

> Yeah, maybe that's crazy, but I think you'll find a lot more market in the range where most people play.




Indeed, which is why thats the area I concentrate upon, but I won't exclusively pandour to one area because I want people to see that there are no limits.



			
				Greybar said:
			
		

> I mean, other than a half-dozen or so people here, who really plans to run games in the UKCR1000 range?




The three or four monsters that circumnavigate that sort of power are really there to inspire people more than anything. 



			
				Greybar said:
			
		

> More competition comes with more market, yes, but I think you've already shown that you can compete there.




I'm honestly not bothered by competition, I simply want to write about the things I like...and thats high-level stuff. 

Back in the days of AD&D 1st Edition when I bought the Monster Manuals I flipped straight to the Demon Princes and Archdevils, I never got excited about orcs or goblins...unless of course they were Gruumsh and Maglubiyet. The comics that interest me revolve around powerhouse characters such as Thor and Superman, I couldn't care less about Daredevil or Batman (though thats no indictment of the quality of such titles, simply that they don't inspire me personally).


----------



## weiknarf

Hey Krust

Did you ever read the end of the X-Man series (issues 63 - 75; written by Warren Ellis and Steven Grant)?

If so, I was wondering how you would rate X-Man and Qabiri.


----------



## Upper_Krust

weiknarf said:
			
		

> Hey Krust




Hi weiknarf mate! 



			
				weiknarf said:
			
		

> Did you ever read the end of the X-Man series (issues 63 - 75; written by Warren Ellis and Steven Grant)?




I have never read any X-men affiliated title (with the exception of a few stories featuring Juggernaut).



			
				weiknarf said:
			
		

> If so, I was wondering how you would rate X-Man and Qabiri.




I had a look at X-mans stats here:

http://www.classicmarvel.com/cast/nategrey.htm

He seems quite powerful while augmenting himself and could presumably boost himslf up to about Lesser Power for a few rounds at least.


----------



## historian

Hey Krust.  



> Understandably thats the range (sort of Hero-deity to Lesser Deity) where I can see most people ending up playing. But if people don't know about challenges beyond CR 100, then they won't have any impetus to 'have at them'. In the same way that most people didn't try gaming over 20th-level until after the Epic Level Handbook came out.
> 
> Indeed, which is why thats the area I concentrate upon, but I won't exclusively pandour to one area because I want people to see that there are no limits.




Excellent.  Despite limited playability (arguably) at higher levels (owing mostly to difficulty creating a storyline), one of the most appealing aspects of the IH is that it aspires to be complete.  A first (as far as I can tell) in the history of RPG literature.

I definitely like having IG Thanos at a Time Lord level of power as well (assuming he was fully "in tune" with the Gems).  Referring back to the background on the gems, the being who was the unified "gem" was basically the foundation of the universe, which I'm guessing is akin to a Demiurge.

Nevertheless, after hearing what a Time Lord is, I would have to think that IG Thanos is on the lower end of the power scale.  Based on the description, I'm guessing that there are Time Lords that could destroy a universe outright.  While IG Thanos did wipe out the life in half a galaxy, he didn't demonstrate anything quite like universe-levelling capability.

Taking this further, I have no idea who or what would qualify as a High Lord from real world mythology.  I could name two potential candidates from the Marvel Universe (of course), one of which I think is better characterized as an "avatar" of a Time Lord with a few MAJOR powers and immunities.  The other I'm pretty sure is a High Lord, but you could argue he's anything from a Supreme (doubtful IMO) to a Time Lord.

Anyway my head's still spinning.


----------



## Upper_Krust

historian said:
			
		

> Hey Krust.




Hi historian mate, apologies for the slow response, been busy. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Excellent.  Despite limited playability (arguably) at higher levels (owing mostly to difficulty creating a storyline), one of the most appealing aspects of the IH is that it aspires to be complete.  A first (as far as I can tell) in the history of RPG literature.




Well I don't know if I would say complete, but certainly I would like to think it covers the full spectrum of possibilities.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I definitely like having IG Thanos at a Time Lord level of power as well (assuming he was fully "in tune" with the Gems).  Referring back to the background on the gems, the being who was the unified "gem" was basically the foundation of the universe, which I'm guessing is akin to a Demiurge.




That would be the closest parallel, yes.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Nevertheless, after hearing what a Time Lord is, I would have to think that IG Thanos is on the lower end of the power scale.  Based on the description, I'm guessing that there are Time Lords that could destroy a universe outright.




Within a low physical factor set up, most probably.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> While IG Thanos did wipe out the life in half a galaxy, he didn't demonstrate anything quite like universe-levelling capability.




Hard to say. His power was on a universal level but connected to that one universe.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Taking this further, I have no idea who or what would qualify as a High Lord from real world mythology.  I could name two potential candidates from the Marvel Universe (of course),




...well I think there is one obvious one isn't there. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> one of which I think is better characterized as an "avatar" of a Time Lord with a few MAJOR powers and immunities.  The other I'm pretty sure is a High Lord, but you could argue he's anything from a Supreme (doubtful IMO) to a Time Lord.




High Lord, definately.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Anyway my head's still spinning.




I hope in a good way.


----------



## historian

Hey Krust.  



> Hi historian mate, apologies for the slow response, been busy.




Please don't worry about it.  You're too good to me as it is.



> .well I think there is one obvious one that isn't there.




TOAA has been pretty clearly cast as a Supernal, but it's probably at least a High Lord in any event (not sure about a Supreme).  The true beyonders might qualify?



> High Lord, definately.




HOU Thanos or LT?  Sorry if I wasn't clear in my earlier post.

I'm somewhat sceptical of LT's status, he doesn't fit the profile of a First One,  but doesn't seem to act with the autonomy that (IMO) is befitting of something like a High Lord.  He did destroy a universe and "deactivate" the IGs though.  I'd guess he's a lower end Time Lord.  

Oh yeah, and the fact that my head is spinning is a positive.


----------



## historian

Oh yeah . . . one more question.

What is the difference between a multiverse and a megaverse?


----------



## Alzrius

historian said:
			
		

> I'm somewhat sceptical of LT's status, he doesn't fit the profile of a First One,  but doesn't seem to act with the autonomy that (IMO) is befitting of something like a High Lord.  He did destroy a universe and "deactivate" the IGs though.  I'd guess he's a lower end Time Lord.




Someone told me that Owen Reese (aka Molecule Man) was actually acknowldge by the LT to be more powerful. I have a hard time believing that though...can anyone confirm or deny?

Also, U_K, where would Celestials (the ones from the Marvel Universe) fall on your power scale? It couldn't be too terribly high since Galactus outranks them, and we've seen plenty of beings who could squash Galactus in turn.


----------



## Upper_Krust

historian said:
			
		

> Hey Krust.




Hiya mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Please don't worry about it.  You're too good to me as it is.








			
				historian said:
			
		

> TOAA has been pretty clearly cast as a Supernal,




You've totally lost me. TOAA?



			
				historian said:
			
		

> but it's probably at least a High Lord in any event (not sure about a Supreme).  The true beyonders might qualify?




We don't really know enough about the True Beyonders to comment.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> HOU Thanos or LT?  Sorry if I wasn't clear in my earlier post.
> 
> I'm somewhat sceptical of LT's status, he doesn't fit the profile of a First One,  but doesn't seem to act with the autonomy that (IMO) is befitting of something like a High Lord.  He did destroy a universe and "deactivate" the IGs though.  I'd guess he's a lower end Time Lord.




HOU Thanos = Supreme Being
Living Tribunal = High Lord



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Oh yeah, and the fact that my head is spinning is a positive.




Glad to hear its not exorcist related. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Oh yeah . . . one more question.
> 
> What is the difference between a multiverse and a megaverse?




Have I used the term megaverse somewhere?   

I don't think there is a definitive stance on terminology herein. But if the planes are universes then a single 'reality' (comprising various all the standard planes) would be a multiverse.

Alternate 'realities' would exist in a metaverse.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Someone told me that Owen Reese (aka Molecule Man) was actually acknowldge by the LT to be more powerful. I have a hard time believing that though...can anyone confirm or deny?




Well that was probably before the Beyonder was retconned to the Cosmic Cube. Remember initially the Beyonders power was seemingly infinite, and the Molecule Man had a portion of that power. At that juncture Molecule Man was #2 in the Marvel Universe.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Also, U_K, where would Celestials (the ones from the Marvel Universe) fall on your power scale?




Old Ones.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> It couldn't be too terribly high since Galactus outranks them, and we've seen plenty of beings who could squash Galactus in turn.




Well I wouldn't say theres that many. 

Galactus would be an Old One as well.


----------



## historian

Hey Krust.  



> You've totally lost me. TOAA?




This is the being to whom LT has alluded to as being his master.  There is also a Celestial bearing that title but it was not the being I meant to refer to.



> We don't really know enough about the True Beyonders to comment.




I would agree (which makes them more interesting until they are unveiled at some point -- if ever).  But the True Beyonders and TOAA are the only beings that I would put (and I'm not the authority obviously) clearly into the "Time Lord or better" category at this point.

Of course, there is also the Beyonder (whose origin is similar to that of the IGs).  I just can't get over the fact that Kubik easily (and I mean easily) defeated him.  Maybe Kubik and the Shaper are Time Lords?



> HOU Thanos = Supreme Being
> Living Tribunal = High Lord




Works for me.  



> Have I used the term megaverse somewhere?




Cheeky -- it's metaverse not megaverse.

 



> I don't think there is a definitive stance on terminology herein. But if the planes are universes then a single 'reality' (comprising various all the standard planes) would be a multiverse.
> 
> Alternate 'realities' would exist in a metaverse.




Thanks dude.


----------



## weiknarf

How are Nyx, Erebus, and Chaos from Greek Mythology rated?

Are you going to have a bibliography available?


----------



## Impeesa

Hey all. Still lurking and eagerly waiting. Just thought I'd chime in there and say a good detailed bibiography would be a really cool addition. Good resources, especially on less common mythologies, aren't always easy to find.



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Glad to hear its not exorcist related.




_*hums Tubular Bells*_ 

--Impeesa--


----------



## Upper_Krust

historian said:
			
		

> Hey Krust.




Hiya mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> This is the being to whom LT has alluded to as being his master.  There is also a Celestial bearing that title but it was not the being I meant to refer to.




Ah yes, I remember now.   



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Of course, there is also the Beyonder (whose origin is similar to that of the IGs).  I just can't get over the fact that Kubik easily (and I mean easily) defeated him.  Maybe Kubik and the Shaper are Time Lords?




No. As I mentioned previously they retconned the Beyonder to a 'mere' Cosmic Cube level entity. Kubik was able to defeat him because he was also a Cosmic Cube with greater experience of using his powers.

The shift in power was something like a drop from Supreme Being to Elder One.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi weiknarf mate! 



			
				weiknarf said:
			
		

> How are Nyx, Erebus, and Chaos from Greek Mythology rated?




Nyx, Erebus = Old Ones
Chaos = First One



			
				weiknarf said:
			
		

> Are you going to have a bibliography available?




Yes but it will be in the Apotheosis pdf, not the Bestiary.


----------



## Verequus

Hi U_K!

Please clear your hotmail account - my email has been delayed. :\


----------



## Upper_Krust

RuleMaster said:
			
		

> Hi U_K!




Hiya mate! 



			
				RuleMaster said:
			
		

> Please clear your hotmail account - my email has been delayed. :\




Impossible, my hotmail account was increased to 250 Meg storage capacity last week and I am only sitting at 1%.

I recieved your email entitled 'headset' and I replied to it last night. Did you get it?


----------



## Verequus

I answered this email yesterday - still I've received this message from hotmail.   To answer your question here: 17.00 in your time?


----------



## Upper_Krust

*Dragons and Undead.*

Hi all! 

I have revised the draconian terminology to the following:

Akashic Dragons (Unborn)
Adamic Dragons (Firstborn)
Epic or Neotic Dragons (Neotic means Highborn)
Dragons (Lowborn)

What do you think? Bahamut and Tiamat would be examples of Highborn dragons, Io would be an example of a Firstborn Dragon.

Also I have added the Nosferatu Template into the Bestiary (its about as tough as the Demilich, more or less).

The Eidolon template may get renamed to Shadowlich* (with Eidolon being used at a later date to explain Ancestral Spirits). I am wondering if the term has been used before though? *Goes off to search with google* Not in D&D as far as I can see.

*Esoteric name would be Akalich.


----------



## Verequus

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hi all!
> 
> I have revised the draconian terminology to the following:
> 
> Akashic Dragons (Unborn)
> Adamic Dragons (Firstborn)
> Epic or Neotic Dragons (Neotic means Highborn)
> Dragons (Lowborn)
> 
> What do you think? Bahamut and Tiamat would be examples of Highborn dragons, Io would be an example of a Firstborn Dragon.
> 
> Also I have added the Nosferatu Template into the Bestiary (its about as tough as the Demilich, more or less).
> 
> The Eidolon template may get renamed to Shadowlich* (with Eidolon being used at a later date to explain Ancestral Spirits). I am wondering if the term has been used before though? *Goes off to search with google* Not in D&D as far as I can see.
> 
> *Esoteric name would be Akalich.




Nice terms, but Eidolon and Eidonlancer are used in Ghostwalk, from WotC themselves.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 

I only have the one email from you lately, sorry. Don't know what the problem could be?



			
				RuleMaster said:
			
		

> I answered this email yesterday - still I've received this message from hotmail.   To answer your question here: 17.00 in your time?




Yes.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Rulemaster mate! 

I am on now - I can hear you but I am having difficult with my microphone (obviously). I'll see if I can sort it out within the next ten minutes. If not I'll have to get some professional help on the problem later on in the week.

Okay I just did the call back test and couldn't hear my own voice, so its clear theres a problem with the microphone my end.


----------



## Verequus

It could have been on my side - I had some audio programs open, which blocked my headset's ear phones... Should have tested that before. 

Edit: As I found out, the audio streams don't change the speakers, if I only plug the headset in - restarting is the solution. So nothing has been blocked. And again we have become wiser.


----------



## Zuoken

One small question for you Upper_Krust, and I apologize if it has been asked/answered before, but 63 pages is a lot to sift through. You should be proud to have one of the largest threads on the boards!

On to my question: Do you plan on including stats for Jormungand, the World Serpent, in the Immortal's Handbook, or any of your upcoming PDF's?

Also, what would you rate him as?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Zuoken! 



			
				Zuoken said:
			
		

> One small question for you Upper_Krust, and I apologize if it has been asked/answered before, but 63 pages is a lot to sift through.




No need to apologise mate. 



			
				Zuoken said:
			
		

> You should be proud to have one of the largest threads on the boards!




I'd have my own boards on the website if ezboard could be paid using paypal. But it looks like I am just going to be cursed with having to get a credit card, which won't happen until after the bestiary goes on sale.



			
				Zuoken said:
			
		

> On to my question: Do you plan on including stats for Jormungand, the World Serpent, in the Immortal's Handbook, or any of your upcoming PDF's?




Yes he will be in the Immortals Index: Norse Mythology pdf. 



			
				Zuoken said:
			
		

> Also, what would you rate him as?




Well, he would be as powerful as a Greater Power. While not actually part of the Pantheon 'per se' each individual Pantheon has (at least) three major threats: beings equal to an Elder One (Pantheon Destroyer/Cosmic twin), Greater Power (Dragon/Cosmic umbilical) and Intermediate Power (God-slayer/Cosmic afterbirth).

An example of these threats in Norse mythology would be Surtur, Jormungand and Fenris.

In the Mesopotamian Pantheon: Apsu, Tiamat and Kingu etc.


----------



## historian

> Well, he would be as powerful as a Greater Power. While not actually part of the Pantheon 'per se' each individual Pantheon has (at least) three major threats: beings equal to an Elder One (Pantheon Destroyer/Cosmic twin), Greater Power (Dragon/Cosmic umbilical) and Intermediate Power (God-slayer/Cosmic afterbirth).




Man, that sounds sweet.  The symmetry that's emerging is impressive.

Incidentally, I'm stoked as I was able to buy hard copy versions of the 1st ed. Monster Manuals I&II, DMG and Legends and Lore.  I never played 1st ed., and its interesting in that, unlike in 3e or 3.5e there is a good bit of "reading between the lines" required.  I also noticed that Demogorgon, while having cool psionic and spell casting abilities, is a bit weak on the melee offensive (for some reason this stood out to me).  He should mop the floor with 'run of the mill' characters, but I don't think he would match up well at all with most of the intermediate deities (and certain demi-deities) in Legends & Lore.  

I found the conversion guidelines on your site enlightening as well.  I'm also tinkering with converting cosmic characters from Classic Marvel over to 1st ed. as well using a FASERIP/40 formula to approximate HD in 1st ed 9which incidentally would give Marvel's Surtur 183 HD, probably too many for an elder, so I divided by 1.5 and stuck with that).  

Just letting you know that your content is already coming in handy.


----------



## historian

> Well, he would be as powerful as a Greater Power. While not actually part of the Pantheon 'per se' each individual Pantheon has (at least) three major threats: beings equal to an Elder One (Pantheon Destroyer/Cosmic twin), Greater Power (Dragon/Cosmic umbilical) and Intermediate Power (God-slayer/Cosmic afterbirth).




Man, that sounds sweet.  The symmetry that's emerging is impressive.

Incidentally, I'm stoked as I was able to buy hard copy versions of the 1st ed. Monster Manuals I&II, DMG and Legends and Lore.  I never played 1st ed., and its interesting in that, unlike in 3e or 3.5e there is a good bit of "reading between the lines" required.  I also noticed that Demogorgon, while having cool psionic and spell casting abilities, is a bit weak on the melee offensive (for some reason this stood out to me).  He should mop the floor with 'run of the mill' characters, but I don't think he would match up well at all with most of the intermediate deities (and certain demi-deities) in Legends & Lore.  

I found the conversion guidelines on your site enlightening as well.  I'm also tinkering with converting cosmic characters from Classic Marvel over to 1st ed. as well using a FASERIP/40 formula to approximate HD in 1st ed (which incidentally would give Marvel's Surtur 183 HD, probably too many for an elder, so I divided by 1.5 and stuck with that).  

Just letting you know that your content is already coming in handy.


----------



## historian

Double post . . . sorry.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi historian mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Man, that sounds sweet.  The symmetry that's emerging is impressive.








			
				historian said:
			
		

> Incidentally, I'm stoked as I was able to buy hard copy versions of the 1st ed. Monster Manuals I&II, DMG and Legends and Lore.




Try and get hold of 1st ed. Manual of the Planes too if you are able, it has a lot of great stuff in it.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I never played 1st ed., and its interesting in that, unlike in 3e or 3.5e there is a good bit of "reading between the lines" required.




Yes, it can sometimes require you to fill in the blanks.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I also noticed that Demogorgon, while having cool psionic and spell casting abilities, is a bit weak on the melee offensive (for some reason this stood out to me).




Indeed. I think part of the problem is that most of the characters didn't have listed ability scores. I remember in our campaign that S'mon gave Demogorgon 25 strength.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> He should mop the floor with 'run of the mill' characters, but I don't think he would match up well at all with most of the intermediate deities (and certain demi-deities) in Legends & Lore.




Hes up there with a weak Lesser Power maybe (assuming you give him all the Lesser Power abilities listed in the back of the 1st Ed. Manual of the Planes.  



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I found the conversion guidelines on your site enlightening as well.




Glad they are working for you. 

I read over some of the Dicefreaks Gates of Hell stuff (and I must say I was impressed) and they seem to inflate the likes of the Dukes of Hell about two divine status higher than where I would place them - my own conversion system places them exactly where they were in 1st Ed.

However the Dicefreaks method is interesting because it sets up a Hellish Pantheon that tops out on a par with other Pantheons. I'm presuming they are going to have Asmodeus as a Greater Power?

The anachronism with this approach is that it means the Pantheon of the Devils will significantly outweigh any other pantheon since its going to have close to 100 effective Lesser Powers (The Dukes of Hell). Of course theres no reason why such Pantheons have to be roughly equal - although to me it makes more sense that way so thats what I run with.

If anyone hasn't checked out the Dicefreaks Gates of Hell material yet I would definately recommend it.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I'm also tinkering with converting cosmic characters from Classic Marvel over to 1st ed. as well using a FASERIP/40 formula to approximate HD in 1st ed 9which incidentally would give Marvel's Surtur 183 HD, probably too many for an elder, so I divided by 1.5 and stuck with that).




I think I divide FASERIP by 20 to get the Challenge Rating. Galactus becomes about CR 357, Odin CR 216 (which is only slightly higher than where I have him).

However some stats are somewhat inflated. For example Surtur probably should only have Shift-Z/500 strength and Class 1000 Psyche. Giving him a CR of 245 (rather than 360+).

Converting the Marvel Thor is of course a different matter. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Just letting you know that your content is already coming in handy.




Glad it helps you dude.


----------



## historian

Hey Krust.  



> Try and get hold of 1st ed. Manual of the Planes too if you are able, it has a lot of great stuff in it.




I'll do it.  I recently switched cities, and the local gaming store has almost all of the 1st ed. core stuff, and it's all priced at $5 per book.

It's like stealing.  



> Indeed. I think part of the problem is that most of the characters didn't have listed ability scores. I remember in our campaign that S'mon gave Demogorgon 25 strength.




That makes perfect sense to me.  Part of the 1st ed. problem (if its fair to call it that) seems to be that the deities aren't particularly balanced against one another* -- this is easily "fix"-able on a case by case basis though (particularly because the stat blocks are simple).  I'm guessing that this was because the designers were only contemplating Deity vs. standard PC encounters.

*As an example, Thor w/Mjolnir does 10d10 damage per hit, while Demogorgon's physical attack (tentacle) maxes out at 1d6 (before strength bonus).  Of course, Thor is intended (rightfully) to be more powerful than Demogorgon, and Demogorgon has more variety in special attacks and abilities (but many are next to useless against deities), but rather than having simething like a 1 in 4 chance vs. Thor, it's more like 1 in 150.



> Glad they are working for you.
> 
> I read over some of the Dicefreaks Gates of Hell stuff (and I must say I was impressed) and they seem to inflate the likes of the Dukes of Hell about two divine status higher than where I would place them - my own conversion system places them exactly where they were in 1st Ed.
> 
> However the Dicefreaks method is interesting because it sets up a Hellish Pantheon that tops out on a par with other Pantheons. I'm presuming they are going to have Asmodeus as a Greater Power?
> 
> The anachronism with this approach is that it means the Pantheon of the Devils will significantly outweigh any other pantheon since its going to have close to 100 effective Lesser Powers (The Dukes of Hell). Of course theres no reason why such Pantheons have to be roughly equal - although to me it makes more sense that way so thats what I run with.
> 
> If anyone hasn't checked out the Dicefreaks Gates of Hell material yet I would definately recommend it.




I'll check it out, thanks.



> I think I divide FASERIP by 20 to get the Challenge Rating. Galactus becomes about CR 357, Odin CR 216 (which is only slightly higher than where I have him).




I've been doing that since you told me about it last summer.  Because of the 1st ed. focus, I have just been doubling the 20 to 40 to approximate Hit Dice.  Not scientifically rigorous, but it's a very good proxy I've found.



> However some stats are somewhat inflated. For example Surtur probably should only have Shift-Z/500 strength and Class 1000 Psyche. Giving him a CR of 245 (rather than 360+).
> 
> Converting the Marvel Thor is of course a different matter.




The Marvel stats are definitely off in a few places.  For instance, Silver Surfer has GOT to be higher than a CR 23 outsider (which is the yield on the FASERIP/20 method).   

It seems to work best with characters at Odin's level and above.  When I do run into an obvious problem, I use your x1.5, 2, etc. method from the website to reach a happy medium.  I think it works well -- using it has yielded a 1st ed. Superman w/79 HD and a 1st ed. Darkseid w/96 HD.  That seems about "right on."

Thanks again.


----------



## Alzrius

U_K, just curious about something that may or may not have been mentioned yet.

Are their going to be new materials mentioned in the _Immortal's Handbook_ somewhere? I ask because I just saw the breakdown of the materials in _d20 Future_ over on WotC's site and they're pretty impressive. Armor made of neutronite, for example, would be impressive even before adding magical enhancements.

Btw, thanks for the recommendation about _Gates of Hell_. I just downloaded it and glanced over the various chapters and all I can say is...damn.


----------



## Upper_Krust

historian said:
			
		

> Hey Krust.




Hiya mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I'll do it.  I recently switched cities, and the local gaming store has almost all of the 1st ed. core stuff, and it's all priced at $5 per book.




Sounds like a great store. 1st ed. Manual of the Planes is well worth the money.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> It's like stealing.




Just don't get caught! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> That makes perfect sense to me.  Part of the 1st ed. problem (if its fair to call it that) seems to be that the deities aren't particularly balanced against one another* -- this is easily "fix"-able on a case by case basis though (particularly because the stat blocks are simple).  I'm guessing that this was because the designers were only contemplating Deity vs. standard PC encounters.




Manual of the Planes redresses some of these problems.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> *As an example, Thor w/Mjolnir does 10d10 damage per hit, while Demogorgon's physical attack (tentacle) maxes out at 1d6 (before strength bonus).  Of course, Thor is intended (rightfully) to be more powerful than Demogorgon, and Demogorgon has more variety in special attacks and abilities (but many are next to useless against deities), but rather than having simething like a 1 in 4 chance vs. Thor, it's more like 1 in 150.




Thor was something of the poster boy for D&D Deities. Fortunately I have managed to retain Thors 10d10 hammer base damage in my proprietry stats for him, thanks to his hammer being made of solid orichalcum. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I've been doing that since you told me about it last summer.  Because of the 1st ed. focus, I have just been doubling the 20 to 40 to approximate Hit Dice.  Not scientifically rigorous, but it's a very good proxy I've found.
> 
> The Marvel stats are definitely off in a few places.  For instance, Silver Surfer has GOT to be higher than a CR 23 outsider (which is the yield on the FASERIP/20 method).
> 
> It seems to work best with characters at Odin's level and above.  When I do run into an obvious problem, I use your x1.5, 2, etc. method from the website to reach a happy medium.  I think it works well -- using it has yielded a 1st ed. Superman w/79 HD and a 1st ed. Darkseid w/96 HD.  That seems about "right on."




You know right away if the stats look 'right' or 'wrong'.

For many of the characters it takes my Theory of Superhero Relativity to determine which divine status they parallel.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Thanks again.




Anytime matey!


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Alzrius mate! 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> U_K, just curious about something that may or may not have been mentioned yet.




Fire away dude, anything for the tiny bounding kitten. 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Are their going to be new materials mentioned in the _Immortal's Handbook_ somewhere?




Yes, in the Grimoire/Magic section.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> I ask because I just saw the breakdown of the materials in _d20 Future_ over on WotC's site and they're pretty impressive. Armor made of neutronite, for example, would be impressive even before adding magical enhancements.




Thats an impressive list of materials, although I wonder how truly different they all are. I only have half that many materials planned but they are far more distinctive (in my opinion anyway) than the ones on that list.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Btw, thanks for the recommendation about _Gates of Hell_. I just downloaded it and glanced over the various chapters and all I can say is...damn.




Yes, its a great peice of work by the Dicefreaks people.


----------



## historian

Hey Krust.  




> Sounds like a great store. 1st ed. Manual of the Planes is well worth the money.




The store is quite nice.  I may pick up the MOP tonight.  Until then, I've got some homebrew divine abilities that I'm using (that are based on some principles that I've codified from your comments here and in v4).




> Thor was something of the poster boy for D&D Deities. Fortunately I have managed to retain Thors 10d10 hammer base damage in my proprietry stats for him, thanks to his hammer being made of solid orichalcum.




I'm glad to see Thor is at the higher end of the melee food chain (as he should be).  He's an absolute masher in 1st ed. -- I haven't thoroughly reviewed all the deities, but only the Midgard Serpent stands out as an overt challenge (although the Celtic mythos has a few heavy hitters as well).  The Hecatoncheries, with some lucky dice rolls, could also be a problem if Thor merely stood toe to toe "slugging it out."

Orichalcum . . . interesting, no Uru?  The Orichalcum Golem is starting to remind me of my favorite Herald.  



> For many of the characters it takes my Theory of Superhero Relativity to determine which divine status they parallel.




Now that sounds interesting, maybe it's destined to be website material (or included in a supplement)?

I could use it, it would help me more accurately place lower powered beings and could also answer questions on some of the tougher calls.  Take the Elders of the Universe for instance.  Most 'run of the mill' Elders seem like demi- or lesser powers.  However, I have witnessed the Runner easily defeat SS, so that probably suggests that he is a greater power (assuming no retcon).  My impression is that Grandmaster and Gardener are greater powers as well (although Thanos was able to handle these guys in sequence with no real hiccups -- although he did have preparation).

Then you have Ego, which I have as a First One (maybe only an elder god) and probably a major manifestation of Chaotic Evil.

In cases of close calls like these, your theory would prove very helpful I'm sure.


----------



## devilish

historian said:
			
		

> I found the conversion guidelines on your site enlightening as well.  I'm also tinkering with converting cosmic characters from Classic Marvel over to 1st ed. as well using a FASERIP/40 formula to approximate HD in 1st ed 9which incidentally would give Marvel's Surtur 183 HD, probably too many for an elder, so I divided by 1.5 and stuck with that).




Just went to the site and couldn't find it -- looked under offerings but
no Marvel stuff, unless there's some Super-Secret-S.H.I.E.L.D.-Section
of the site I'm missing. 

-D


----------



## CRGreathouse

devilish said:
			
		

> Just went to the site and couldn't find it -- looked under offerings but
> no Marvel stuff, unless there's some Super-Secret-S.H.I.E.L.D.-Section
> of the site I'm missing.




These?

http://www.immortalshandbook.com/freestuff1.htm
http://www.immortalshandbook.com/freestuff2.htm


----------



## devilish

CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> These?
> 
> http://www.immortalshandbook.com/freestuff1.htm
> http://www.immortalshandbook.com/freestuff2.htm




No - looking for the FASERIP conversion tables (20 or 40) and
why/hows? I'm inferring that it wouldn't just be immortals that
would convert regular Marvel heroes too?


----------



## historian

Hey Devilish -- Krust is the expert on this, but the site that I typically refer to for Marvel stats (and I believe the bulk of their Marvel stats are lifted directly from the original source material) is http://www.classicmarvel.com/cast.htm.

I think you'll find that the FASERIP/20 method works particularly well for cosmic-level characters.  It tends (IMO) to underrate lesser powered characters though (although again, U_K is the expert) which is why I believe U_K's Theory of Superhero Relativity would be so helpful in filling in the gaps.

BTW -- I also think that U_K's sense of the "big picture" would likely make alignment determination, particularly for cosmic characters, particularly helpful.


----------



## Upper_Krust

historian said:
			
		

> Hey Krust.




Hiya mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> The store is quite nice.  I may pick up the MOP tonight.  Until then, I've got some homebrew divine abilities that I'm using (that are based on some principles that I've codified from your comments here and in v4).




Another interesting product you might want to scope out is the 1st Edition World of Greyhawk boxed set - lots of deity stuff in there including the original Divine Abilities for all deities (four years before the material was amended in Manual of the Planes).



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I'm glad to see Thor is at the higher end of the melee food chain (as he should be).  He's an absolute masher in 1st ed. -- I haven't thoroughly reviewed all the deities, but only the Midgard Serpent stands out as an overt challenge (although the Celtic mythos has a few heavy hitters as well).  The Hecatoncheries, with some lucky dice rolls, could also be a problem if Thor merely stood toe to toe "slugging it out."




Thor would kill anything in virtually a single round assuming he got close enough. Surtur is probably the next best (physically at least). Although I may just be remembering S'mons doctored stats where all warrior deities were given at least 20th-level Fighter abilities which gave them 4 attacks/round under our system...in which Thrin had 10/r. 

I remember in our campaign there was a non-cosmic cinque of deities that would have on average defeated Thrin and they were Thor; Odin (Gungnir upped to 6d10 damage); Zeus; Mabelode and Surtur. Anyone else was fodder one-on-one.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Orichalcum . . . interesting, no Uru?




Orichalcum (aka White Dwarf Star Metal) is essentially Uru...just don't tell anyone.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> The Orichalcum Golem is starting to remind me of my favorite Herald.




Well spotted. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Now that sounds interesting, maybe it's destined to be website material (or included in a supplement)?




Strictly website only. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I could use it, it would help me more accurately place lower powered beings and could also answer questions on some of the tougher calls.  Take the Elders of the Universe for instance.  Most 'run of the mill' Elders seem like demi- or lesser powers.  However, I have witnessed the Runner easily defeat SS, so that probably suggests that he is a greater power (assuming no retcon).  My impression is that Grandmaster and Gardener are greater powers as well (although Thanos was able to handle these guys in sequence with no real hiccups -- although he did have preparation).




Yes Thanos was the man with the plan.

The Elders are somewhat confusing by rights they should be Elder Ones (with the Infinity Gems that is) or Greater Powers. However they are generally narrowly focused individuals so it would be easy to manipulate their weakness.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Then you have Ego, which I have as a First One (maybe only an elder god) and probably a major manifestation of Chaotic Evil.




Very powerful Elder One.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> In cases of close calls like these, your theory would prove very helpful I'm sure.




Well I'll see if I can update the website over the weekend. I have a lot of 90% finished material that I was planning to add to the site and have just been distracted with the Bestiary.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey devilish mate! 



			
				devilish said:
			
		

> No - looking for the FASERIP conversion tables (20 or 40) and why/hows? I'm inferring that it wouldn't just be immortals that
> would convert regular Marvel heroes too?




Thanks to CRGreathouse and historian for helping me out. 

I'll see about adding the appropriate stuff to the website this weekend. The FASERIP/40 thing really only works for cosmic types. But the Theory of Superhero Relativity sorts that out.


----------



## weiknarf

Krusty...

http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?mpress_Trans

might be another epic book


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi weiknarf mate! 



			
				weiknarf said:
			
		

> Krusty...
> 
> http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?mpress_Trans
> 
> might be another epic book




Yeah I saw that yesterday, looks interesting. Curiously it says a 96 page sourcebook for all character levels, so it may not be exclusively 'epic' (although I hope for the most part it is). I don't really know that much about Monte's Diamond Throne setting, though from my experience his stuff is always above average, so its probably very good.


----------



## Fieari

How's the PDF comming, Krust?  Still on schedule for November?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Fieari mate! 



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> How's the PDF comming, Krust?  Still on schedule for November?




Its coming slowly but surely. I had a terrible past week (due to circumstances outside my control) and thats probably going to mean I won't make November if I am being totally honest. However I'll try my hardest and we'll see where we are by November 30, I should be very close to being finished by then one way or the other.


----------



## devilish

That does it!  I'm flying to Belfast to help out!


----------



## Anabstercorian

"If you don't have it out by Nov. 30, then the puppy dies.  That is the final word."


----------



## CRGreathouse

Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> "If you don't have it out by Nov. 30, then the puppy dies.  That is the final word."




Frankly, I think it's much more likely that hell will freeze over.  I'm still holding out hopes for a pre-Christmas release, though.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi guys! 

Some updates on the website. I will either add the Theory of Superhero Relativity in about an hour or first thing tomorrow morning.



			
				Devilish said:
			
		

> That does it! I'm flying to Belfast to help out!




I could probably use the help.



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> "If you don't have it out by Nov. 30, then the puppy dies. That is the final word."




*hears some whimpering in the background*



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Frankly, I think it's much more likely that hell will freeze over.




...I have a spell for that. 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I'm still holding out hopes for a pre-Christmas release, though.




Well it is the season of miracles, I just hope I won't need one.


----------



## Anabstercorian

About Talos's Boiling Blood ability:

The initial damage from the molten bronze is fire damage and the secondary damage is non-magical bludgeoning damage, right?  So damage reduction could apply.

Also, all the Achilles Heel thing does is render him vulnerable to critical hits, right?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Anabstercorian mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> About Talos's Boiling Blood ability:
> 
> The initial damage from the molten bronze is fire damage and the secondary damage is non-magical bludgeoning damage, right?




Correct.



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> So damage reduction could apply.




Yes, unless the Anti-magic field negated it which is likely unless the DR has no element.

eg. DR 15/silver would not work because thats Supernatural, However DR 15/- would work because thats effectively Hardness.



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> Also, all the Achilles Heel thing does is render him vulnerable to critical hits, right?




Yes. I didn't want to make it too easy for people, that ability is slightly different from the Achilles Heel Divine Ability in the Immortals Handbook I have to say.


----------



## Anabstercorian

Well, later in the entry you state, under the Construct type listing, that he's immune to critical hits, so I was just a bit confused.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Anabstercorian mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> Well, later in the entry you state, under the Construct type listing, that he's immune to critical hits, so I was just a bit confused.




Well that just your standard Construct traits, But I suppose I could always add a bit more clarity.

By the way I am just going to work on the Bestiary today and I'll attend to the website stuff later tonight. Business before pleasure.


----------



## Kalanyr

Actually if I recall correctly only damage reduction that cannot be bypassed in an antimagic field is supernatural, as such material damage reductions are extraordinary, /magic or /epic is Supernatural, /- is Ex since its effectively hardness and I forget how the alignments are handled.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Kalanyr mate! 



			
				Kalanyr said:
			
		

> Actually if I recall correctly only damage reduction that cannot be bypassed in an antimagic field is supernatural, as such material damage reductions are extraordinary, /magic or /epic is Supernatural, /- is Ex since its effectively hardness and I forget how the alignments are handled.




I have the 3.5 Monster Manual open in front of me and it doesn't clarify the matter.

The possible elements are:

Weapon Type (Bludgeoning, Piercing and Slashing) - must be Ex
Material Type (Adamantite, Iron, Silver) - ? (I'm leaning towards Su, but I can see a case for either, perhaps you are correct)
Enchantment Type (Magic, Epic) - must be Su
Aligned Type (Chaotic, Evil, Good, Lawful) - must be Su
No Type (Hardness) - must be Ex

I know I have at least eight new elements in the Bestiary, it would be nice to see some official clarity on whether the material type was Ex or Su.

Incidently, regarding the Theory of Superhero Relativity I will add that article to the website when I get a chance, but I want to concentrate on the Bestiary as much as possible (since thats the top priority) for obvious reasons, so that will happen when it happens. 

Also I noticed a few discrepancies in Talos entry and I'll be sure and update him too (The breath weapon damage should be 96d6, not 36, for a start).


----------



## Knight Otu

Hi, UK! The DR clarification can be found in the MM errata:



> Damage Reduction
> Damage Reduction is either extraordinary (Ex) or supernatural (Su). Use the following guidelines if it is not specified.
> •  DR X/slashing, piercing, or bludgeoning should be (Ex)
> •  DR X/adamantine should be (Ex)
> •  DR X/-- should be (Ex)
> •  DR X/silver or cold iron should be (Su)
> •  DR X/magic should be (Su)
> •  DR X/chaotic, lawful, holy, or unholy should be (Su)



 So apart from adamantine, your guesses were correct. It does not list epic, but why should it be different from magic in that matter?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Knight Otu said:
			
		

> Hi, UK!




Hiya Knight Otu mate! 



			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> The DR clarification can be found in the MM errata:




Thanks so much. 



			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> So apart from adamantine, your guesses were correct.




They bamboozled me by splitting the material modifiers between both Ex and Su! 



			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> It does not list epic, but why should it be different from magic in that matter?




Exactly, it shouldn't.

While we are on the subject or rules. I must confess I have had to change how Space/Reach is determined for creatures (though don't worry you won't notice it for creatures below Gargantuan) and also the assignment of creature Speed. Neither made sense when I extrapolated everything up to Mega-Fine size on my expanded size table in the Bestiary.

eg. Extrapolating a Mega-Fine creature (75 miles tall humanoid lets say) using the core rules and it has a Speed of 1.5 miles and a Reach of 2 miles. At that rate it would take it over two minutes to make a stride and it can't reach at all virtually!

Looking at a Colossal Giant (75 ft. tall lets say). using the core rules it has a Speed of 70 ft. and a Reach of 30 ft. Even that just seems somewhat preposterous.

I mean I presume Reach can be paralleled with 'double dribbling' in basketball. In that you must keep one leg planted to gauge the results. As such Reach (for tall creatures at least) must parallel their size, not mysteriously dwindle (comparitively speaking) as they get bigger.


----------



## CRGreathouse

What do you mean when you call Talos a "triple iron golem"?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi CRGreathouse matey! 

Been a bit poorly with a sore throat these past few days, so apologies to those people who emailed me recently, I'll get to those soonish.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> What do you mean when you call Talos a "triple iron golem"?




As I recall that was the original tagline in one of the first edition AD&D products (I think it was the Dungeon Masters Guide, Talos was mentioned among the artifacts or something like that). It should be noted that WotC retained the tagline for Talos in the Book of Vile Darkness (pg. 148).


----------



## Zoatebix

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I mean I presume Reach can be paralleled with 'double dribbling'




Do you mean "travelling"?  I think double-dribbling is when a player dribbles again after touching the ball with both hands, or maybe otherwise stopping the ball


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Zoatebix mate! 



			
				Zoatebix said:
			
		

> Do you mean "travelling"?  I think double-dribbling is when a player dribbles again after touching the ball with both hands, or maybe otherwise stopping the ball




Yes "travelling" my mistake.   

Its been a while since I watched Basketball here (since Michael Jordan was playing in fact).

However, with regards reach I was specifically refering to the fact that they have to plant one foot on the ground, and other than being able to pivot on that foot they cannot move it.

I see reach exactly the same. Its the area furthest away that you can touch while still planting one leg in a given spot.

Therefore its very silly to suggest that a Colossal Giant (eg. Mountain Giant) will have a Reach of only 30 ft. If it had no arms it would still have a Reach of 30 ft. for goodness sake. I don't see how WotC come up with the idea that Reach would be somehow proportionally less for bigger creatures - its totally illogical. Similarly so with Space.


----------



## Angel Tarragon

Dang. That is one heck of a reach. Plausible though.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Therefore its very silly to suggest that a Colossal Giant (eg. Mountain Giant) will have a Reach of only 30 ft. If it had no arms it would still have a Reach of 30 ft. for goodness sake. I don't see how WotC come up with the idea that Reach would be somehow proportionally less for bigger creatures - its totally illogical. Similarly so with Space.




I think that, in general, reach is exaggerated for smaller creatures (that is, Small to Large) so that it fits on the 5-ft grid.  5-foot reach is too much for a Medium creature, but all it means is being able to reach into the bordering 5' square.

If smaller squares were used, I think a 3-foot reach would be more reasonable, which rounds to 5 feet on the grid.  This would actually scale reasonably well, at least well enough that the giant you cite wouldn't be too far off.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi CRGreathouse mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I think that, in general, reach is exaggerated for smaller creatures (that is, Small to Large) so that it fits on the 5-ft grid.  5-foot reach is too much for a Medium creature, but all it means is being able to reach into the bordering 5' square.




Test it out. I think 5ft. is okay for medium. I was able to reach it using the previously mentioned method of planting one foot.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> If smaller squares were used, I think a 3-foot reach would be more reasonable, which rounds to 5 feet on the grid.  This would actually scale reasonably well, at least well enough that the giant you cite wouldn't be too far off.




The method I use to determine reach is:

Tall Creature (Reach = Height rounded down to nearest multiple of 5 ft.)

Long Creature (Reach = 2/3 Height rounded up to nearest multiple of 5 ft.)


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Test it out. I think 5ft. is okay for medium. I was able to reach it using the previously mentioned method of planting one foot.




You're assuming that your "travelling" is the definition of reach, which you based on your assumption that 5-foot reach is accurate for a Medium creature.

I assume that the larger reaches are accurate, which leads me to a different definition for reach, which leads me to the conclusion that Medium characters should have 3-ft reach (which then rounds to 5 feet and so works).

I see no reason to favor your choice of basis over mine, and mine has the added advantage of not requiring changes to any MM creatures.


----------



## Zoatebix

Colossal (tall) creatures have to reach down pretty far to hit a Medium creature, and Mr Pythagoras says that they'll "loose" quite a bit of reach that way (with reach as one of the bases of the triangle, the difference between the giant's shoulder and a tender whacking spot on the medium creature's body is another base, and the giant's swining arm is deadly hypotenuse).  Maybe MM reaches are accurate for tall creatures fighting smaller creatures on the ground, but need to be adjusted as the "level" at which creatures make their swings changes.

That sounds prohibitively complicated.  Not that a 75 mile creature on a 5-foot grid isn't already ridonkulous.  Still - I think we'd all like to find a happy, playable, medium


----------



## Kalanyr

Well the problem with a medium creature with 3' reach rounding to 5 is that a small creatures reach should round to 0 (IIRC).


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 

Unfortunately that sore throat and mild cold has had a turn for the worse, and I seemingly now have the flu. Hopefully the medicine will cure it.   



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> You're assuming that your "travelling" is the definition of reach, which you based on your assumption that 5-foot reach is accurate for a Medium creature.




Well it seems logical. As I initially mentioned extrapolating upwards has some crazy results that singularly prove the official treatment of reach (and Space) is broken.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I assume that the larger reaches are accurate,




Well I think its a false assumption.

Are you suggesting that a 75 mile tall humanoid only has a reach of 1.5 miles? How would it move - in tiny baby steps? Its just illogical. A normal stride could reach 30 miles alone.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> which leads me to a different definition for reach, which leads me to the conclusion that Medium characters should have 3-ft reach (which then rounds to 5 feet and so works).




I can't see how anyone can logically arrive at that conclusion.

When size doubles, reach doubles. It can't increase by 50%.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I see no reason to favor your choice of basis over mine,




See above.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> and mine has the added advantage of not requiring changes to any MM creatures.




Well, you can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs.


----------



## Knight Otu

Less core rule tinkering, more book writing! 

 And a quick recovery!


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya matey! 



			
				Zoatebix said:
			
		

> Colossal (tall) creatures have to reach down pretty far to hit a Medium creature,




Well firstly size is relative.



			
				Zoatebix said:
			
		

> and Mr Pythagoras says that they'll "loose" quite a bit of reach that way (with reach as one of the bases of the triangle, the difference between the giant's shoulder and a tender whacking spot on the medium creature's body is another base, and the giant's swining arm is deadly hypotenuse).  Maybe MM reaches are accurate for tall creatures fighting smaller creatures on the ground, but need to be adjusted as the "level" at which creatures make their swings changes.




Doesn't your assumption require that they can't move either of their feet for the determination of reach, in which case you can't actually turn round, meaning that reach should be a semi-circle.

If you can pivot on one foot, then your reach is effective in any direction.

Reach must include a single stride in its make-up, otherwise creatures with no arms, have no reach.



			
				Zoatebix said:
			
		

> That sounds prohibitively complicated.




Are you refering to my Reach = Height (tall creature)/2/3 Length (long creature)? I thought it was fairly simple.   



			
				Zoatebix said:
			
		

> Not that a 75 mile creature on a 5-foot grid isn't already ridonkulous.




I think it illustrates the problems inherant in the system pretty well, much the same way you would never notice the CR problems until you extrapolate them upwards.



			
				Zoatebix said:
			
		

> Still - I think we'd all like to find a happy, playable, medium




Frankly I think Reach/Space is an open and shut case. Speed is a much trickier customer, and its dwindling returns are even more abrupt.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Well I think its a false assumption.
> 
> Are you suggesting that a 75 mile tall humanoid only has a reach of 1.5 miles? How would it move - in tiny baby steps? Its just illogical. A normal stride could reach 30 miles alone.




I don't assume it can move either foot out of its space, so its step size is irrelevant.  Also, I agree with Zoatebix insofar as it seems its based on the assumption of fighting Medium creatures.  This could kill perhaps a third of its reach.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi CRGreathouse dude! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I don't assume it can move either foot out of its space, so its step size is irrelevant.




But its 'step' is another form of reach (stomp attack anyone), so I ask again, can you still say that such a creature can only reach/step 1.5 miles?



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Also, I agree with Zoatebix insofar as it seems its based on the assumption of fighting Medium creatures.  This could kill perhaps a third of its reach.




If someone can convince me that the reach of a 75 mile tall giant should be 1.5 miles then I'll be happy to change my approach to Reach/Space.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> If someone can convince me that the reach of a 75 mile tall giant should be 1.5 miles then I'll be happy to change my approach to Reach/Space.




I don't think it should be 1.5 miles, but neither do I see a need for changing the S/R of MM creatures, which work quite well in general.


----------



## Zoatebix

I wasn't saying your method was complicated, I was saying that adjusting a creature's reach based on the size of the thing it's attacking was complicated.  It's complicated for even more of the reasons you mentioned - a stomp attack would work in reverse - you'd have a longer reach with a stomp attack than you would with a slam against smaller creatures.  The reach of the stomp will get shorter as the target creature increases in size and as you have to raise your leg higher, until eventually you can no longer stomp the creature according to the rules of your stomp attack.

I was saying it'd be too complicated to add too much common sense to reach, because you'd have different reaches for all of a creature's natural attacks based on the creature's phisiology and the size of the opponent.  I was critiquing my own silly line of reasoning.

Okay - would Colossal (tall) creatures really have a "footprint" equal to their space in 5x5 squares?  I think the actual footprint is smaller than the Space (even at the wonky upper end) for tall creatures, and larger than Space for most long creatures above... maybe huge?  I think the rules make up for this a little bit because of the fact that smaller creatures (what is it, 2 categories?  3 categories?) can stand in their "space" no problem, and that the large creatuire can hit little things that are standing in their space with no problem.  I wish I had a rules reference here to look up this stuff...

I dunno - this seems like a pretty fuzzy problem.  A medium (and especially a small)-sized creature's footprint is much smaller than a 5 foot square - so part of what's really a creature's reach is counted for in it's space.  I still think that 1.5 miles sounds totally wrong, though.

This is what I get for having a decent idea when I'm just coming down from a fever...  Hopefully someone can sort out this mess of a post.  Sorry!
-George


----------



## Roman

Hey U_K! Long time no see! As I expected the Immortals Handbook is not finished yet, but I am glad to see that the delays have not forced you to give up on the project. In any case, if you don't mind I have a few questions for you. 

From: Conversion Table 1: Divine Rank Comparisons

Divine Ranks: 

Proxies (Undergods)
 Disciple   
 Prophet   

Immortals (Gods)
 Hero-deity 
 Quasi-deity  
 Demi-deity 
 Lesser Deity 
 Intermediate Deity 
 Greater Deity 

Sidereals (Overgods)
 Elder One   
 Old One   
 First One   

Eternals
 Time Lord   
 High Lord   

Supernals
 Supreme Being   

Akasha
 Akashic Records 

Interesting hierarchy, but how can there be something more powerful (I have no idea what Akasha means) than the Supreme Being, which after all is by definition... supreme (and hence probably though not necessarily omnipotent)!?!? 

Also, could you please briefly describe each of the above divine ranks, so as to give us an idea of the respective power of each rank? Thanks! 

Last but not least, I love your CR system's consistency and how well defined it makes everything related to CR. Would it be possible, however, to elucidate how you arrived at the numbers that you did with respect to balance. For example, you state that equipment at the suggested wealth level makes up 20% of the CR of characters, so I am wondering how you arrived at that number. I mean it does seem balance, but looking 'behind the scenes' so to speak, would be nice.


----------



## Fieari

I think I can answer one of those questions, being a long time follower of this thread.  You have to understand what the Akashic Records ARE.  The Akashic Records are, in fact, everything.  The Supreme Being is a subset of the Akashic Records.  Everything the Supreme Being does is written down, and without it being written down, it didn't happen.

The thing about Akashic records is that no one IS an Akashic.  It's not a personal kind of force.  But you can do things TO the Akashic records... if you can get past the "librarians".  Of course, a Supreme Being should have no trouble at all dealing with librarians, since by definition, the Supreme Being is more powerful than said librarians.  So the Supreme Being can go ahead and start tinkering with the library holding the Records... but remember, the records here are what holds the power we're talking about, and if the Supreme Being wasn't careful, maybe some lesser power could slip into the library, sneak past the librarians somehow, and change that Supreme Being him/herself...

That's how it works, to my understanding.

See: I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library

For a picture of what the Akashic Records are like.


----------



## Roman

Fieari said:
			
		

> I think I can answer one of those questions, being a long time follower of this thread.  You have to understand what the Akashic Records ARE.  The Akashic Records are, in fact, everything.  The Supreme Being is a subset of the Akashic Records.  Everything the Supreme Being does is written down, and without it being written down, it didn't happen.
> 
> The thing about Akashic records is that no one IS an Akashic.  It's not a personal kind of force.  But you can do things TO the Akashic records... if you can get past the "librarians".  Of course, a Supreme Being should have no trouble at all dealing with librarians, since by definition, the Supreme Being is more powerful than said librarians.  So the Supreme Being can go ahead and start tinkering with the library holding the Records... but remember, the records here are what holds the power we're talking about, and if the Supreme Being wasn't careful, maybe some lesser power could slip into the library, sneak past the librarians somehow, and change that Supreme Being him/herself...
> 
> That's how it works, to my understanding.
> 
> See: I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library
> 
> For a picture of what the Akashic Records are like.




Interesting - so Akashic Records are basically the information behind the universe (I should probably say multiverse) and detail everything. Now it makes sense. Where does the term 'Akashic/Akasha' come from?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi CRGreathouse mate! 

I'm feeling a lot better today. Hurrah! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I don't think it should be 1.5 miles,




You seem to want to have your cake and eat it dude! 

Surely its obvious that the 1.5 mile reach is wrong (correct?) and as such we can state with some authority that the official treatment for reach is clearly broken.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> but neither do I see a need for changing the S/R of MM creatures, which work quite well in general.




Well I'm certainly not going to ask people to change them. But in the Immortals Handbook 

One other (even simpler) way you could handle Reach/Space is just by a generic figure for each size, however one which doubles every time.

eg.
Medium = 5
Large = 10
Huge = 20
Garg = 40
Colossal = 80
Titanic = 160
Macro-Fine = 320

Use the previous category for Long creatures and vice versa for Space.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Zoatebix mate! 



			
				Zoatebix said:
			
		

> I wasn't saying your method was complicated, I was saying that adjusting a creature's reach based on the size of the thing it's attacking was complicated.




Exactly which is why its crazy to assume thats how the official rules work.



			
				Zoatebix said:
			
		

> It's complicated for even more of the reasons you mentioned - a stomp attack would work in reverse - you'd have a longer reach with a stomp attack than you would with a slam against smaller creatures.




Exactly, which is why Pythagoras isn't a game designer, even if he was instrumental in creating d4s. 



			
				Zoatebix said:
			
		

> The reach of the stomp will get shorter as the target creature increases in size and as you have to raise your leg higher, until eventually you can no longer stomp the creature according to the rules of your stomp attack.




The 'reach' for the stomp attack will never change, you simply can't use it on creatures of a certain size (unless they are prone).



			
				Zoatebix said:
			
		

> I was saying it'd be too complicated to add too much common sense to reach, because you'd have different reaches for all of a creature's natural attacks based on the creature's phisiology and the size of the opponent.  I was critiquing my own silly line of reasoning.




Indeed. What do you think of my new (even simpler) system of reach? See previous post.



			
				Zoatebix said:
			
		

> Okay - would Colossal (tall) creatures really have a "footprint" equal to their space in 5x5 squares?




I know that the 75 mile tall giant would have a footprint of about 12 miles, making its 1.5 mile reach insane.



			
				Zoatebix said:
			
		

> I think the actual footprint is smaller than the Space (even at the wonky upper end) for tall creatures,




Nope. The 75 mile tall creature would supposedly have a Space of 1 mile, despite the fact that its footprint alone would cover about 75 square miles. 



			
				Zoatebix said:
			
		

> and larger than Space for most long creatures above... maybe huge?




Not sure if this makes sense?   



			
				Zoatebix said:
			
		

> I think the rules make up for this a little bit because of the fact that smaller creatures (what is it, 2 categories?  3 categories?) can stand in their "space" no problem, and that the large creatuire can hit little things that are standing in their space with no problem.  I wish I had a rules reference here to look up this stuff...




The fact that Colossal Creatures can't even fit within their own 'Space' is not a feature of Space/Reach, but simply illustrates a flaw in the system.



			
				Zoatebix said:
			
		

> I dunno - this seems like a pretty fuzzy problem.




Clear as crystal if you ask me. 



			
				Zoatebix said:
			
		

> A medium (and especially a small)-sized creature's footprint is much smaller than a 5 foot square - so part of what's really a creature's reach is counted for in it's space.  I still think that 1.5 miles sounds totally wrong, though.








			
				Zoatebix said:
			
		

> This is what I get for having a decent idea when I'm just coming down from a fever...




You too! I hope I didn't smit you.   



			
				Zoatebix said:
			
		

> Hopefully someone can sort out this mess of a post.  Sorry!
> -George




I admit this post was an adventure in itself.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Roman said:
			
		

> Hey U_K! Long time no see!




Hiya Roman mate! 

I trust you have been keeping well?



			
				Roman said:
			
		

> As I expected the Immortals Handbook is not finished yet,




*cough*   



			
				Roman said:
			
		

> but I am glad to see that the delays have not forced you to give up on the project.




No surrender. 



			
				Roman said:
			
		

> In any case, if you don't mind I have a few questions for you.




Fire away. 



			
				Roman said:
			
		

> From: Conversion Table 1: Divine Rank Comparisons
> 
> Divine Ranks:
> 
> *SNIP*
> 
> Interesting hierarchy,




Thanks. 



			
				Roman said:
			
		

> but how can there be something more powerful (I have no idea what Akasha means) than the Supreme Being, which after all is by definition... supreme (and hence probably though not necessarily omnipotent)!?!?




The easiest way of explaining the difference is that the Supreme Being is the Will and the Akashic Records are the Way. 



			
				Roman said:
			
		

> Also, could you please briefly describe each of the above divine ranks,




Yes indeed I could, but I'm not going to, thats what the Immortals Handbook is for. 



			
				Roman said:
			
		

> so as to give us an idea of the respective power of each rank? Thanks!




Well the respective power for the Immortal Ranks is similar (though not identical) to how such ranks are portrayed within Deities & Demigods.



			
				Roman said:
			
		

> Last but not least, I love your CR system's consistency and how well defined it makes everything related to CR. Would it be possible, however, to elucidate how you arrived at the numbers that you did with respect to balance.




The initial equation CR x2 = EL +4 was derived from the relationship between Level and Experience Points. I was doing some heavy brainstorming (I have about 10,000 pages of notes, scribbles and doodles for the IH) and wanted to work a method for determining the Experience Points Totals for any level. Something just clicked while I was looking at the numbers and I wondered if the true CR/EL relationship paralleled EXP/Level, and te more I researched the matter, the more it looked like it did.



			
				Roman said:
			
		

> For example, you state that equipment at the suggested wealth level makes up 20% of the CR of characters, so I am wondering how you arrived at that number. I mean it does seem balance, but looking 'behind the scenes' so to speak, would be nice.




Well, as Sherlock Holmes would say, once you have eliminated all other options, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the answer.

What was initially needed were the building blocks of HD/Levels themselves. I chose feats as my guideline, since they showed which bonuses were more potent.

I started with the theory that five feats were equal to one level and therefore one feat was equal to 1/5 (0.2) level*.

*Later proved wrong by the silver rule which showed each feat was worth 0.17 level.

After I had broken all monster HD and core class levels down into feats, I worked out the statistical average bonuses that would be given by magic items at 20th level, and simply converted that into feats.


----------



## Verequus

Hi UK!

 Glad to hear, that you are feeling better! 

 My short interruption - you seem to have forgotten to write everything in this quote:



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Well I'm certainly not going to ask people to change them. But in the Immortals Handbook
> 
> One other (even simpler) way you could handle Reach/Space is just by a generic figure for each size, however one which doubles every time.



 Also, if a creatures don't fit into their own space, how has the system to be fixed?

 And to Roman:
 Hey, why didn't you have said anything, that you knew already of the Immortals Handbook, as soon as I've send you the RC-candidate of the CR-system? I can't remember all the people who posted in this thread.


----------



## Roman

RuleMaster said:
			
		

> Hi UK!
> 
> Glad to hear, that you are feeling better!
> 
> My short interruption - you seem to have forgotten to write everything in this quote:
> 
> 
> Also, if a creatures don't fit into their own space, how has the system to be fixed?
> 
> And to Roman:
> Hey, why didn't you have said anything, that you knew already of the Immortals Handbook, as soon as I've send you the RC-candidate of the CR-system? I can't remember all the people who posted in this thread.




I knew of the Immortals Handbook, but I did not know of the version of the CR system you sent me, so I was grateful you have done so. I was not posting in this thread for some time.


----------



## Roman

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hiya Roman mate!
> 
> I trust you have been keeping well?




Indeed I am - I hope the same goes for you. 



> No surrender.




Glad to hear that! 



> The easiest way of explaining the difference is that the Supreme Being is the Will and the Akashic Records are the Way.




Yeah, this question is now a bit redundant since Fieari answered it already. 



> Yes indeed I could, but I'm not going to, thats what the Immortals Handbook is for.




Well, I was only looking for general descriptions something like: 

High Ones - highest embodiments of their given concepts 
... etc. 




> Well the respective power for the Immortal Ranks is similar (though not identical) to how such ranks are portrayed within Deities & Demigods.




Fair enough




> The initial equation CR x2 = EL +4 was derived from the relationship between Level and Experience Points. I was doing some heavy brainstorming (I have about 10,000 pages of notes, scribbles and doodles for the IH) and wanted to work a method for determining the Experience Points Totals for any level. Something just clicked while I was looking at the numbers and I wondered if the true CR/EL relationship paralleled EXP/Level, and te more I researched the matter, the more it looked like it did.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, as Sherlock Holmes would say, once you have eliminated all other options, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the answer.
> 
> What was initially needed were the building blocks of HD/Levels themselves. I chose feats as my guideline, since they showed which bonuses were more potent.
> 
> I started with the theory that five feats were equal to one level and therefore one feat was equal to 1/5 (0.2) level*.
> 
> *Later proved wrong by the silver rule which showed each feat was worth 0.17 level.
> 
> After I had broken all monster HD and core class levels down into feats, I worked out the statistical average bonuses that would be given by magic items at 20th level, and simply converted that into feats.




Interesting - I will have to reread this in the morning for it to really stick. 5:30 am just does not cut it.  

One more question, though: Do you use other sources of power apart from worshippers? For example, it seems a bit dubious to say the least for Time Lords to derive their power from worshippers - most people have never heard of Time Lords! Even at 'lower levels' of divine might - there are simply some cosmic beings (for example the elemental princes, etc.) that represent their concepts and are not worshipped.


----------



## Zoatebix

Yes, I was very smited by the fever.  No fun.

Anyways - I understood you.  It was definately clear that the space/reach thing was horrendously broken with 75-mile creatures - I was just trying to figure out how much of a Colossal creature's "space" the creature actually took up with it's body's footprint.  

I think I was trying to gauge _how_ broken space/reach is for the size categories presented in the core rules.  I knew that, at some point before 75 miles tall, a creature doesn't fit in it's "space" any more, if you just extrapolate the core rules.  Maybe I was trying to figure out where that was?  

Since I had no facts or figures to work with, the little "game mechanical space vs physical space" thought-experiment I attempted in my feverish state utterly failed.  I'm more lucid now - using your 75-mile to 12-mile ruler, a medium creature takes up less than a 10th of it's space and a colossal creature takes up less than a 5th...

I have no idea where I was going with that the other day.

Okay, maybe I'll play advocate for the core rules for a second.  I guess you could interpret that the core rules mean that after special cases for small, medium, large, and (smaller) huge-sized creatures for playability, a creature's reach is an "arm's length" - 1/2 height for tall creatures, and 1/3 length for long creatures.  This "fits" the core rules and solves the 1.5 mile problem.

On second thought, no, it doesn't fit the core better.  It breaks down again at shorter gargantuan creatures.  It's really only good for colossal and above.

Well, I thought I was on to something that'd make both you and CRGreathouse happy. <sigh>

Do you mind sharing your thoughts on base speed as determined by creature size?


----------



## Zoatebix

Okay - I've got it!

Reach for tall creatures is equal to half the median height of the size category, rounded up to the nearest 5 feet unless the result is under 1 foot!

so Tiny is 9 inches or 0 feet
small is 1.5 feet or 5 feet
medium is 3 feet or 5 feet
large is 6 feet or 10
huge is 12, round up to 15
gargantual is 24 which makes 25 feet... not quite core...
colossal is 48, for a reach of 50 feet.  That's 20 feet more than core...

maybe for colossal and up we can make it just 1/2 height?


----------



## Upper_Krust

RuleMaster said:
			
		

> Hi UK!




Hiya mate! 



			
				RuleMaster said:
			
		

> Glad to hear, that you are feeling better!




Not 100% yet - but getting there.



			
				RuleMaster said:
			
		

> My short interruption - you seem to have forgotten to write everything in this quote:




It was nothing of note - I was simply going to say that I don't plan to repeat their mistakes in the IH.



			
				RuleMaster said:
			
		

> Also, if a creatures don't fit into their own space, how has the system to be fixed?




By increasing their Space to the proper size.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Roman mate! 



			
				Roman said:
			
		

> Indeed I am - I hope the same goes for you.




Bit of a flu at the moment. Worst is behind me I hope.



			
				Roman said:
			
		

> Glad to hear that!




 



			
				Roman said:
			
		

> Well, I was only looking for general descriptions something like:
> 
> High Ones - highest embodiments of their given concepts
> ... etc.




Better leaving some surprises for the book. 



			
				Roman said:
			
		

> Interesting - I will have to reread this in the morning for it to really stick. 5:30 am just does not cut it.




He he! 



			
				Roman said:
			
		

> One more question, though: Do you use other sources of power apart from worshippers?




Yes, there is the power (quintessence) and the glory (worship), although it all boils down to the same thing.



			
				Roman said:
			
		

> For example, it seems a bit dubious to say the least for Time Lords to derive their power from worshippers - most people have never heard of Time Lords! Even at 'lower levels' of divine might - there are simply some cosmic beings (for example the elemental princes, etc.) that represent their concepts and are not worshipped.




Indeed.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				Zoatebix said:
			
		

> Yes, I was very smited by the fever.  No fun.








			
				Zoatebix said:
			
		

> Anyways - I understood you.  It was definately clear that the space/reach thing was horrendously broken with 75-mile creatures - I was just trying to figure out how much of a Colossal creature's "space" the creature actually took up with it's body's footprint.
> 
> I think I was trying to gauge _how_ broken space/reach is for the size categories presented in the core rules.  I knew that, at some point before 75 miles tall, a creature doesn't fit in it's "space" any more, if you just extrapolate the core rules.  Maybe I was trying to figure out where that was?
> 
> Since I had no facts or figures to work with, the little "game mechanical space vs physical space" thought-experiment I attempted in my feverish state utterly failed.  I'm more lucid now - using your 75-mile to 12-mile ruler, a medium creature takes up less than a 10th of it's space and a colossal creature takes up less than a 5th...




Either reach doubles with every size category or I am mad, because thats the only thing thats makes sense to me.



			
				Zoatebix said:
			
		

> I have no idea where I was going with that the other day.








			
				Zoatebix said:
			
		

> Okay, maybe I'll play advocate for the core rules for a second.  I guess you could interpret that the core rules mean that after special cases for small, medium, large, and (smaller) huge-sized creatures for playability, a creature's reach is an "arm's length" - 1/2 height for tall creatures, and 1/3 length for long creatures.  This "fits" the core rules and solves the 1.5 mile problem.
> 
> On second thought, no, it doesn't fit the core better.  It breaks down again at shorter gargantuan creatures.  It's really only good for colossal and above.
> 
> Well, I thought I was on to something that'd make both you and CRGreathouse happy. <sigh>








			
				Zoatebix said:
			
		

> Do you mind sharing your thoughts on base speed as determined by creature size?




Well you have 3 possibilities:

1. Medium = 30 ft. + 10 ft./size (OFFICIAL)
2. Medium = 30 ft. x 1.5/size
3. Medium = 30 ft. x 2/size


----------



## Fieari

*whiney voice*  Kruuuuuust.... you're inspiring me again without releasing the books so I can actually use that inspiration... stop it!!!!! */whiney voice*

Seriously... I'm just thinking about how you could use logically generalized rules like these to make yourself some spells/magic items such as the infamous 7-League Boots (increases your size to Mega-Level for purposes of determining stride only?)... the Bigbee Hand spells could be made epic with some sizing changes...


----------



## Zoatebix

Uh-oh.  I just started talking about the "character" of a set of rules I analyzed for Tumble changing at epic levels on the "Build a Better Tumble" thread.  I'm doing okay so far, but I'd love to have some crunch-minded people to help me out over there:

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=108888

Plus, other opinions are always nice, and the people who read this thread usually know their stuff.

In other news - Hmmmm "templates" for spells to make them Epic in scale.  Like metamagic, but cool.  I think you're on to something, Fieari.

-George


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi guys! 

Glad I can inspire before the books even released. 



			
				Zoatebix said:
			
		

> In other news - Hmmmm "templates" for spells to make them Epic in scale.  Like metamagic, but cool.  I think you're on to something, Fieari.




Ostensibly thats how my magic system works. Of course there are things that you can only do at epic levels so you still need some new 'base spells' as it were. 

But really it could be as simple as:

1. I want to...'cover all the lands in darkness'.
2. Use one (or more) of six new* types of magic to boost the spell level.
3. Shape the new spell parameters as you see fit (up to the new level).

*I say new, but some of the types of magic have certainly been used before, eg. Circle/Ritual magic. Though some are indeed new. 

You can also reverse engineer everything so that you could have negative metamagic, allowing you to cast spells at a lower level by slightly weakening them.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi guys! 

Just thought I would let you know that I updated the website with a few new elements including the first parts of the testimony section (writing credits and my favourite television), a new epic monster (The Crown Naga) and so forth.

Some of the links on the my favourite television pages are the wrong colour, and I haven't reread over all the paragraphs so they might need tweaking over the next few days, just to give you a heads up.


----------



## Knight Otu

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Just thought I would let you know that I updated the website with a few new elements including the first parts of the testimony section (writing credits and my favourite television),



 Hi, UK! I saw that you got your contributor copies for Strange Lands as well. I was a bit shocked to not see your name in it.

 I don't know if you missed it, but we've discussed the book a bit over here, though the thread became needlessly bogged down in a discussion of Otossal's alignment (it's resolved now, so try not to rekindle that particular discussion ).

 Thanks for posting the original crown naga - I wanted to ask you about that for some time now... but have you checked it with Sword and Sorcery Studios?


----------



## Zoatebix

Hey U_K,
The link to the Crown Naga on the Credits page is broken, it points to "http://www.immortalshandbook.com/testimony.htm" and should point to "http://www.immortalshandbook.com/freestuff8.htm".

I'm really enjoyed you favorite television list, and I'm reading the rest of the updates presently.
-George


----------



## Anabstercorian

Is that the original Crown Naga?  I thought the Crown Naga could cast one spell per round per head.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Knight Otu said:
			
		

> Hi, UK!




Hiya mate! 



			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> I saw that you got your contributor copies for Strange Lands as well.




Yeah, it looks like a pretty good book, although I haven't had time to fully read it yet.



			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> I was a bit shocked to not see your name in it.




I didn't submit that much for this book and although I did have stuff chosen it didn't make the final cut when they changed the format from full monster book to half monster book.



			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> I don't know if you missed it, but we've discussed the book a bit over here,




I saw the thread last week and I meant to stop by and voice my congratulations when I got reading a bit more of the book.



			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> though the thread became needlessly bogged down in a discussion of Otossal's alignment (it's resolved now, so try not to rekindle that particular discussion ).




Well it should probably be the same as his herald. 



			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> Thanks for posting the original crown naga - I wanted to ask you about that for some time now... but have you checked it with Sword and Sorcery Studios?




To be honest no.  

If they want me to take it down I will do so (out of courtesy), however I don't think they would have any legal precedent in preventing me from showing that monster which is totally different from what they ended up with in the book.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Zoatebix said:
			
		

> Hey U_K,




Hiya mate! 



			
				Zoatebix said:
			
		

> The link to the Crown Naga on the Credits page is broken, it points to "http://www.immortalshandbook.com/testimony.htm" and should point to "http://www.immortalshandbook.com/freestuff8.htm".




Fixed. The links to the various television show websites on the left of the favourite television page should also be red, instead of white, but I'll get to that later.



			
				Zoatebix said:
			
		

> I'm really enjoyed you favorite television list,






I am concerned there may be sentences missing from that article, I'll have to read over it later. I had it about 90% finished a few months back and I had been meaning to finish it and get it online, so I rushed at it a bit last night.

You'll notice I also have the favourite movies section listed but not yet linked. It is also about 90% finished. I'll probably finish that next weekend.



			
				Zoatebix said:
			
		

> and I'm reading the rest of the updates presently.




I'd love to get some Bestiary previews up as soon as possible, not to mention finish the Gods with stats article and the Theory of Superhero Relativity.

I also need to change the way the links on the website are working with subdomains, but all those things would likely take more time than I would care to spend at the moment.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Anabstercorian mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> Is that the original Crown Naga?  I thought the Crown Naga could cast one spell per round per head.




So it can. I must have missed that section or pasted up an even earlier incarnation. Next time I make any revisions to the site I will attend to it.

By the way I added the website to a number of search engines, though I may have to go back and tweak some things - can anyone find the website with them easy enough?


----------



## historian

Thanks for the updates U_K!


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> So it can. I must have missed that section or pasted up an even earlier incarnation. Next time I make any revisions to the site I will attend to it.
> 
> By the way I added the website to a number of search engines, though I may have to go back and tweak some things - can anyone find the website with them easy enough?




I'd really like to see the correct version of the crown naga.

As for search engines:

Google
The top three websites all refer to your book, but your site hasn't appeared yet.  (This will likely take a few weeks, until their big crawl.)

AOL Search
It looks like this works off Google's data, as the results are the same for me.

Looksmart
The first two results are your threads here, but I didn't see your site.

AllTheWeb
The second of the actual results here is your web site; the first and third are EN World  threads.  OF course, there are three 'sponsored results' above the real results.

Lycos
The second result is your site, and the first is an EN World thread.

Alta Vista
The first result below the five sponsored results is an EN World thread.  Your site didn't show up.

HotBot
The first result is the EN World thread, the next is your site.

Conclusions
Your site is reasonably likely to show up in a search, but the EN World threads are always there.  Good thing the two are linked, eh?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey historian matey, thanks for the support, and I appreciate the search engine help CRGreathouse dude! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I'd really like to see the correct version of the crown naga.




I will update it tonight if I can find the original data on my hard drive - I am sure I had a spell-list for it as well somewhere...but where did I put it.   



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> As for search engines:




Seemingly the heading it always goes under is Immortality, which is the name I have my design folder for the website in. I'll have to ask if I can change that to Immortals Handbook without repercussions.

One possible problem was that I had a message saying I was timed out on two of the website search engines when I was uploading the data, so I am not sure if that is having any impact.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Google
> The top three websites all refer to your book, but your site hasn't appeared yet.  (This will likely take a few weeks, until their big crawl.)




I can get my site up on google by typing Craig Cochrane Immortals Handbook, perhaps this was something to do with the time out message I got while uploading?



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> AOL Search
> It looks like this works off Google's data, as the results are the same for me.




Thats a free one. I didn't upload to AOL Search, so your theory is probably correct.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Looksmart
> The first two results are your threads here, but I didn't see your site.




There was no option to submit it to their search engine, the six I was given were:

Alltheweb
Directhit
Google
Hotbot
Lycos
Mixcat

Of those I know at least two were timed out, one of which was google.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> AllTheWeb
> The second of the actual results here is your web site; the first and third are EN World  threads.  OF course, there are three 'sponsored results' above the real results.








			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Lycos
> The second result is your site, and the first is an EN World thread.








			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Alta Vista
> The first result below the five sponsored results is an EN World thread.  Your site didn't show up.




Actually its the 8th result on that list as far as I can see.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> HotBot
> The first result is the EN World thread, the next is your site.








			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Conclusions
> Your site is reasonably likely to show up in a search, but the EN World threads are always there.  Good thing the two are linked, eh?




Well I'd like it to show up properly in google, and I'd also like to change the title to Immortals Handbook rather than Immortality. Also if I could get it to link directly to the news page rather than some subordinate page that would be nice.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I can get my site up on google by typing Craig Cochrane Immortals Handbook, perhaps this was something to do with the time out message I got while uploading?




No, it just means that Google hasn't done a full crawl of the web since it noticed your site.  Until it does a re-crawl, your site has PageRank 0 (out of 10), so it appears after all pages with a higher rank.  On the search Craig Cochrane Immortals Handbook, only one page has PageRank > 0, and that's the BadAxe Grim Tales page (which appears above yours).  On a broader search, there are more sites with positive PageRank.

You'll have to wait a few weeks before the next crawl.



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Well I'd like it to show up properly in google, and I'd also like to change the title to Immortals Handbook rather than Immortality. Also if I could get it to link directly to the news page rather than some subordinate page that would be nice.




You don't even need to submit it at all to Google, although it can help.  Again, once it does a complete crawl it should see your site and rank it.


----------



## Zoatebix

If you search for "immortalshandbook" on google, it will link straight to your site, but that's hardly as useful as two words...


----------



## historian

Hey U_K.  



> Hey historian matey, thanks for the support




Don't mention it dude, twas but a trifle.  

I'm glad to see that CRG and others are familiar with the workings of search engines.


----------



## historian

Hey U_K.  

Hope all is well.

As you know, I've been dabbling around with 1st ed. stuff (thanks btw for the MOP recommendation).  Incidentally, I've got a homebrew version of Arishem the  Judge that I'm (shamelessly) proud of (AL:LN, 916/1832 hp, AC: -35 -- "he"'s a real beast).

One of the things that I've noticed, and I'd like for you to weigh in on is that (and this is an issue that persists in 3.5 ed.) certain beings (for instance, vampires) may have abilities or immunities (mind influencing effects) that, when applied against a deity (such as the Illithid God Brain or a Greater Deity of Psionics) seem to create a game imbalance.  Perhaps a less extreme example would be a lesser fire elemental which would resist any attempts at a Greater God's ability to burn it with mundane fire (even if the Deity was of the Elemental Plane of Fire).

I don't know if these are the best of examples but I'm hoping that I get the idea across.  Is there a way to adjudicate conflicts like these or, maybe an adjudication isn't necessary.  I was contemplating maybe something along the lines of a percentile dispel check based on HD, but you probably have better ideas.

Any guidance that you could provide (and please don't if it would infringe upon the sanctity of info that you intend to reveal later) would be very helpful.

Thanks.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Thanks for the help and advice CRGreathouse and Zoatebix! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Hey U_K.




Hiya mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Hope all is well.




The usual. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> As you know, I've been dabbling around with 1st ed. stuff (thanks btw for the MOP recommendation).




My pleasure.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Incidentally, I've got a homebrew version of Arishem the  Judge that I'm (shamelessly) proud of (AL:LN, 916/1832 hp, AC: -35 -- "he"'s a real beast).




Sounds good.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> One of the things that I've noticed, and I'd like for you to weigh in on is that (and this is an issue that persists in 3.5 ed.) certain beings (for instance, vampires) may have abilities or immunities (mind influencing effects) that, when applied against a deity (such as the Illithid God Brain or a Greater Deity of Psionics) seem to create a game imbalance.  Perhaps a less extreme example would be a lesser fire elemental which would resist any attempts at a Greater God's ability to burn it with mundane fire (even if the Deity was of the Elemental Plane of Fire).
> 
> I don't know if these are the best of examples but I'm hoping that I get the idea across.  Is there a way to adjudicate conflicts like these or, maybe an adjudication isn't necessary.  I was contemplating maybe something along the lines of a percentile dispel check based on HD, but you probably have better ideas.
> 
> Any guidance that you could provide (and please don't if it would infringe upon the sanctity of info that you intend to reveal later) would be very helpful.
> 
> Thanks.




I think the simplest method is simply that deities will trump non-deities (based on CR) on all matters within their portfolios.

Those beings with complete immunity might be permitted either a +20 save or take half damage (or rather the deities in question could affect such opponents but wouldn't gain their portfolio bonuses in doing so).

eg. A deity with the fire portfolio could burn a fire elemental, but it wouldn't deal double damage as one of the normal portfolio benefits.


----------



## historian

Hey Krust.  



> I think the simplest method is simply that deities will trump non-deities (based on CR) on all matters within their portfolios.
> 
> Those beings with complete immunity might be permitted either a +20 save or take half damage (or rather the deities in question could affect such opponents but wouldn't gain their portfolio bonuses in doing so).
> 
> eg. A deity with the fire portfolio could burn a fire elemental, but it wouldn't deal double damage as one of the normal portfolio benefits.




That works for me, and is a bit simpler than what I was using.  

Thanks.


----------



## Baronovan

*Bump*

Hey U_K, how are ya?

I hope the work is coming along well. Do you think there's a chance I can purchase the Bestiary as a Christmas gift for myself this year?  Well, good luck with your endeavor. I'll be lurking around.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Baronovan said:
			
		

> Hey U_K, how are ya?




Hi there Baronovan dude, I am keeping well. 



			
				Baronovan said:
			
		

> I hope the work is coming along well.




Slowly but surely...although that could easily be my signature at the moment.   

It actually looks (and reads) great (I think anyway), I just need to knuckle down and finish the rest of it, then double check my details.

Once again I made things more difficult for myself by adding new spells and items into the mix. Not to mention the majority of the entries seemed to stretch to more than one page (which added about 30 pages). Then I went and added extra material on all the planar and dimensional hierarchies (about an extra 15 pages). So 69 entries mysteriously turned into 150 pages and I am using the small font and leading from the core rulebooks!   

I just need a kick up the bottom to stop me adding stuff.   



			
				Baronovan said:
			
		

> Do you think there's a chance I can purchase the Bestiary as a Christmas gift for myself this year?




I really, really hope so. I'll be absolutely gutted if I don't have it finished before xmas.   



			
				Baronovan said:
			
		

> Well, good luck with your endeavor. I'll be lurking around.




Thanks mate. I appreciate all the support.

I know these are trying times, and my delays are not endearing anyone to the work (or me), but I think you will find the effort has been worth it when you see the final material.

I didn't let people down with the CR/EL material and I won't with this either. Promise.


----------



## Zoatebix

Just fyi, Google still isn't doing a great job pointing to your site, at least as of last night (I think... time gets compressed and stretched during finals).  Searching "immortalshandbook" as one word still works best, but your site is still 4th or so.


----------



## Fieari

Yeesh Krust... project creep?  I have no doubt that the final project will be superb, but when do we get that Bird in Hand?  You know, the one worth two in the Bush...

Quite frankly, I'd be happy to pay for an unfinished product, on the condition that I get the finished product as well when it comes out.  Any chance of doing a pre-release release?


----------



## CRGreathouse

Zoatebix said:
			
		

> Just fyi, Google still isn't doing a great job pointing to your site, at least as of last night (I think... time gets compressed and stretched during finals).  Searching "immortalshandbook" as one word still works best, but your site is still 4th or so.




When U_K releases the Beastiary, I imagine we'll drop a line to Morrus and see if we can get on the news page.  This will help Google find the site pretty quickly...!


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi guys! 

I could have replied last night but these message boards are very slow for me during the evenings.

Regarding google (or any other search engine) I think they are the least of my concerns at the moment.

In reply to Fieari's point about giving out unfinished work, that seems a touch unprofessional in my opinion. I'm not sure I like the idea. But I'll think about it.

*gets back to work*


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi all! 

I am wondering if I can get a second opinion on certain words and whether they would be copyright protected or not.

1) Baernodaemons (as in Baernoloths, although I don't want to mention that word).
2) Altrodaemons (as above)
3) Demodand (not Gehreleth)
4) The Wasting Tower (as in the place the Daemons rule Hades from)
5) Balrogs (I'd like to use something like this for the name of Chaotic Evil Infernals).

None of these are detailed, simply referenced once or twice. I'm just wondering which I'll have to change. Balrog is perhaps a given, but I am wondering if theres something similar...but different.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hi all!
> 
> I am wondering if I can get a second opinion on certain words and whether they would be copyright protected or not.
> 
> 1) Baernodaemons (as in Baernoloths, although I don't want to mention that word).
> 2) Altrodaemons (as above)
> 3) Demodand (not Gehreleth)
> 4) The Wasting Tower (as in the place the Daemons rule Hades from)
> 5) Balrogs (I'd like to use something like this for the name of Chaotic Evil Infernals).
> 
> None of these are detailed, simply referenced once or twice. I'm just wondering which I'll have to change. Balrog is perhaps a given, but I am wondering if theres something similar...but different.




My (nonlegal, nonlawyer) advice:

Don't mention balrogs.  I know that balors were given that name after problems with Tolkien Estates (they were formerly balrogs).

For the others, I can't speak.  I imagine you're fine, as long as you're not copying out the WotC stories behind these -- since the references are just in passing, this shouldn't be a problem.  But frankly, I don't know that there's a benefit to refering to the stilted cosmology WotC uses; I can't stand it.


----------



## Fieari

As my players are steadily rising in power (not actually NEEDING the book yet, but I'm getting antsy... I'll be needing to show the players more details about the upper eschalons of power well before they actually obtain anything like it) I've been plotting out things for upcomming sessions, and I was thinking about a staple of fantasy and religion...

Prophesies.  Infallible prohpesies.

Since I'm personally a big advocate for "Free Will" and "Anti-Predestination", I don't like the concept of a fixed path that the prophesier is seeing down.  Besides, actually taking a look at distant events couldn't account for the kinds of prophesies that become famous and are used to such great effect in so much fiction... they're so vague that anyone looking at the ACTUAL event is probably going to have to really stretch to apply it to the words that were used.

So I was thinking, instead of a prophesy being a -prediction-... why not make it something a little more proactive.  And I don't mean by forcing an event in the future to take place, I mean by preventing CONTRARY events from taking place.  In other words, with regards to the "trousers of time", all branches of the timeline* that directly CONTRADICT the prophesy made are removed from the realm of possibilities.

*Time flowchart?  Time cartesian co-ordinate system?

So by this method, I was thinking of how to word such an ability as a spell.  I was also thinking 9th level spell, but really, this kind of wide reaching spell really needs to go epic, and not having Krust's epic magic rules I can't really place the level it needs to be... anyway.



> PROPHESY (Divination?)
> Level: ???
> Components: V, S, (F? DF?), XP
> Casting Time: ???
> Range:
> Target: The Universe
> Duration: Instantaneous
> 
> The caster speaks a single declarative sentence in the future tense.  The sentence may not mention a _specific_ time, such as "tommorow at dawn".
> 
> The laws of the universe are ammended such that any action anyone or anything may attempt that renders the sentence impossible fails.  As long as there is the remotest chance that the sentence could still be fufilled sometime in the future, this spell has no effect on the attempted action.  As soon as the prophesy is fufilled, all effects of the spell end.
> 
> If another prophesy is made in the future that contradicts a current prophesy, the current prophesy may make a will save as if it were the caster who made the prophesy at the time the prophesy was made.
> 
> XP Cost: For every proper noun mentioned in the prophesy, the caster must expend 1,000 xp.  Proper nouns include _specific_ locations and people.  Generic dates, locations, and people, such as "when the moon turns red", "at the shadow of 'the mountain'", or "a hero will arise" do not incur this cost.




What do you guys think?  

(I'm posting in this thread lacking an Immortal's Forum where this might have been better placed)


----------



## Baronovan

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hi all!
> 
> I am wondering if I can get a second opinion on certain words and whether they would be copyright protected or not.
> 
> 1) Baernodaemons (as in Baernoloths, although I don't want to mention that word).
> 2) Altrodaemons (as above)
> 3) Demodand (not Gehreleth)
> 4) The Wasting Tower (as in the place the Daemons rule Hades from)
> 5) Balrogs (I'd like to use something like this for the name of Chaotic Evil Infernals).
> 
> None of these are detailed, simply referenced once or twice. I'm just wondering which I'll have to change. Balrog is perhaps a given, but I am wondering if theres something similar...but different.




Hey, U_K. I think #1-3 should be okay. Should be. The Wasting Tower might be protected (since I've never seen it elsewhere), but Balrog might be open territory for you. Consider the Balrog mech from Battletech (IIRC), the Balrog demon miniature from Ral Partha, Balrog the boxer from Street Fighter II... I doubt all of these were licensed from Tolkien's estate. Now, in the context you want to use it the word might be a bit risky, but I wouldn't think so. Remember that the Balrogs were a breed or a species of demon-beast, not a proper noun. If you were to use the word "Gothmog", then you'd have some trouble. I don't have to ask Chris Tolkien if I can make an "Elf"... I could see "balrog" falling under the same classification, legally.


----------



## historian

Hey U.K.   



> I am wondering if I can get a second opinion on certain words and whether they would be copyright protected or not.




I wish that I had practice expertise (or even experience) in copyright.  Unfortunately I don't.  If I did I would gladly give you a definitive answer to your question on a pro bono basis (provided that I could do so without running afoul of any rule, regulation, law, etc.) as I suspect it could be handled in relatively short order.

As it stands, the most that I could offer you is a lay (and explicitly non-legal) observation or two.  If you can find the means to retain a legal professional with copyright expertise, I think it would be a good idea.  Of course, in the real world, legal service doesn't always fit with the resources available.

All that being said, I have a couple of observations that I would offer.  These are not intended as legal advice, but are merely my lay thoughts on some of what I might be thinking if I were in your position:

1.  Material that may have previously been subject to copyright protection may no longer be (although I have no reason to believe that this would apply in this situation).

2.  It might be risky to conclude that, because we have seen material referenced over a variety of sources, that it is in the public domain or otherwise not subject to copyright protection.  It may well be that non-copyright owners are using material pursuant to a licensing fee or some other arrangement.  Additionally, another publisher might be using material unlawfully.

Well, that's about all that I have in the way of lay observation.

You might find it helpful to visit the following site:
http://www.findlaw.com/ 

I can't speak to the quality of materials, but it was popular when I was in law school.

Good luck dude.    I'm more than happy to freely help you in any way that I can.  If it would be helpful I'll contact you by e-mail.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi CRGreathouse mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> My (nonlegal, nonlawyer) advice:
> 
> Don't mention balrogs.  I know that balors were given that name after problems with Tolkien Estates (they were formerly balrogs).




Yes, I have double checked and the word is unfortunately copyrighted.   

I actually just wanted to mention that Balrog was the name of the Chaotic Evil Infernals (to go along with the Neutral Evil Necrodaemons and Lawful Evil Lucifuges).

Actually I have just found another word for them, no worries. 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> For the others, I can't speak.  I imagine you're fine, as long as you're not copying out the WotC stories behind these -- since the references are just in passing, this shouldn't be a problem.




Well hopefully I'll get away with it. I think Baernodaemons and Altrodaemons will be okay, I'm not yet convinced about Demodand, and I am wary of the Wasting Tower.

When discussing relevant hierarchies I mention the above names and how they fit into the mix. 

I also created my own origin for the Wasting Tower, which is a short paragraph. The Tower is relevant in that instead of ruling layers or planes, the Daemons might rule levels of the tower instead.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> But frankly, I don't know that there's a benefit to refering to the stilted cosmology WotC uses; I can't stand it.




Well I prefer to concern myself with dimensional matters rather than merely planar matters. However, I did want a brief examination of the planes to explain the nomenclature for various ranks of power in the planes. So for Brood, Daemons, Demons and Devils I outline how such hierarchies could work with examples. Of course individuals can use this discourse and apply that to their own cosmology.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Fieari mate! 

...word of warning the boards are getting really slow for me around this time and I may not get replying to the other posts until tonight.

Anyway, I digress...



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> As my players are steadily rising in power (not actually NEEDING the book yet, but I'm getting antsy... I'll be needing to show the players more details about the upper eschalons of power well before they actually obtain anything like it)




I'm on it. 



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> I've been plotting out things for upcomming sessions, and I was thinking about a staple of fantasy and religion...
> 
> Prophesies.  Infallible prohpesies.
> 
> *SNIP*




Time Travel measured in rounds is easy to accomodate because you can always reset the clock without too much damage to the flow of the campaign.

However, what you are suggesting is slightly trickier. However, I actually have a spell called Web of Fate in the Grimoire which lets you bend chance to your will. I suppose in many ways your idea could be a sort of indirect version of that spell (perhaps this version can't have anything to do with the caster).


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Well hopefully I'll get away with it. I think Baernodaemons and Altrodaemons will be okay, I'm not yet convinced about Demodand, and I am wary of the Wasting Tower.




"Demodand" was a TSR alteration of "deodand", probably based on Vance's The Dying Earth (in which it is an evil creature).

Dictionary definition:
Deodand: A personal chattel which had caused the death of a person, and for that reason was given to God, that is, forfeited to the crown, to be applied to pious uses, and distributed in alms by the high almoner. Thus, if a cart ran over a man and killed him, it was forfeited as a deodand.


----------



## Anabstercorian

Anabstercorian shovels a puppy in to the furnace.  "I've got a whole bag of these!  One every day till the book is released!  After Christmas, it'll get even worse."


----------



## Knight Otu

I really don't know anything about the copyright things, but with the demodands, there might be a way - they are after all in the 100% OGC Tome of Horrors. (though I seem to remember a thread in the Publishers forum asking a similar thing, and there being no consensus...)


----------



## Campbell

Greetings Krust. I was thinking of altering the Summon Monster spells so that they each summon one creature  of up to a certain UK CR value. I was also considering basing Calling/Planar Ally spells  to do likewise. Any reccomendations?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Baronovan mate! 

I don't know about the rest of you but its a nightmare trying to get ENWorld to load in the afternoons/early evenings (UK time that is).



			
				Baronovan said:
			
		

> Hey, U_K. I think #1-3 should be okay.




Well I am going to use Deodand (as CR suggested), just to be on the safe side. But I will mention Altrodaemons and Baernodaemons. I have changed Balrogs to Lelirium. 

The only thing left is the Wasting Tower.



			
				Baronovan said:
			
		

> Should be. The Wasting Tower might be protected (since I've never seen it elsewhere), but Balrog might be open territory for you. Consider the Balrog mech from Battletech (IIRC), the Balrog demon miniature from Ral Partha, Balrog the boxer from Street Fighter II... I doubt all of these were licensed from Tolkien's estate. Now, in the context you want to use it the word might be a bit risky, but I wouldn't think so. Remember that the Balrogs were a breed or a species of demon-beast, not a proper noun. If you were to use the word "Gothmog", then you'd have some trouble. I don't have to ask Chris Tolkien if I can make an "Elf"... I could see "balrog" falling under the same classification, legally.




I think it may be context sensitive in this instance. Not worried now since I have found a suitable replacement though.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Thanks to historian, CRGreathouse and Knight Otu for their help.

Hey Anabstercorian mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> Anabstercorian shovels a puppy in to the furnace.  "I've got a whole bag of these!  One every day till the book is released!  After Christmas, it'll get even worse."




Oi! The Immortals Handbook is for life...not just for christmas.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Campbell said:
			
		

> Greetings Krust.




Hey there Campbell! 



			
				Campbell said:
			
		

> I was thinking of altering the Summon Monster spells so that they each summon one creature of up to a certain UK CR value. I was also considering basing Calling/Planar Ally spells  to do likewise. Any reccomendations?




Well I was thinking that you should be able to summon a single monster of a HD no greater than your caster level. 

So spells universally use your minimum level in this regard.

eg. a 9th-level spell could summon a single monster with 17 HD or 2 x 12 HD or 4 x 8 HD.

Is that more help? Or did you really want one using CR and not HD?


----------



## Campbell

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hey there Campbell!
> Is that more help? Or did you really want one using CR and not HD?



 I was thinking of using CR and not HD.  In my experience with Planar Ally and Calling spells  it seems that certain  creatures of a given hit die are favored and when I've checked to see how you rated those creatures, their CRs are almost always nominally higher than their equal HD counterparts.


----------



## Anabstercorian

*shovels in two puppies*


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Campbell! 



			
				Campbell said:
			
		

> I was thinking of using CR and not HD.  In my experience with Planar Ally and Calling spells  it seems that certain  creatures of a given hit die are favored and when I've checked to see how you rated those creatures, their CRs are almost always nominally higher than their equal HD counterparts.




I definately think Hit Dice is the superior common denominator for summoning.

For monsters 'proper' CRs* are generally about x1.5 the listed WotC CR. I just hate the duality of rating monsters and characters different. 

If you use CR instead of HD I would keep the CR equal to the Spellcaster Level, but I don't advocate doing it that way.

*Where CR for Monsters and Characters is equal.


----------



## Impeesa

So I picked up Warcraft: Shadows & Light today. I think some of you might like it - it's filled with NPCs and greater beings of rather impressive power. It also has the Eternal template, a CR +7/LA +13 alternative to the non-ogc (at the time of the writing) template from D&Dg, and 36 new epic feats. Just for fun, here's the CR spread:

Legendary heroes and villains: 22, 15, 27, 35, 22, 22, 21, 25, 43, 17, 17, 22, 38, 28, 23, 25, 21

Lords of the Burning Legion: 50, 59, 45, 44

Ancients: 54, 44, 52, 44, 92, 62, 52, 52, 42

Dragon Aspects: 30, 32, 34, 30, 30

Elemental Lords: 35, 50, 40, 45

Titans: 30 (non-unique), 28 (non-unique), 71, 77, 70, 73, 65, 74, 73

Other non-unique monsters from the Cosmology chapter: 11, 15, 19, 28, 8

There's also some other epic-related stuff like a few new spells, and some artifacts. Pretty cool all around. 

--Impeesa--


----------



## Fieari

Hey, Impessa... about the spells it offers, how do they work?  Do they use the "Epic Spellcasting" rules?  Are they level 1-9 spells?  Are they level 10+ spells?  Are they actually EPIC spells (like: Detonate Mountain, Wither Forest, Charm Nation)?


----------



## Alzrius

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I am wondering if I can get a second opinion on certain words and whether they would be copyright protected or not.
> 2) Altrodaemons (as above)




I know I'm late to this, but last I checked, they were "altraloths" not "altroloths". That's what I recall from _Dragon Annual #2_. It's picky, I know, but greatness is found in the details.


----------



## Impeesa

Fieari said:
			
		

> Hey, Impessa... about the spells it offers, how do they work?  Do they use the "Epic Spellcasting" rules?  Are they level 1-9 spells?  Are they level 10+ spells?  Are they actually EPIC spells (like: Detonate Mountain, Wither Forest, Charm Nation)?




They're a bit odd, actually. There aren't too many of them. There are a couple new 8th/9th level spells, focused on the summoning of Infernals (demonic constructs, for those not familiar with newer Warcraft lore), and then a selection of 12th level spells. These are mostly intended for the Eredar warlocks, who gain such spells for free through advancement, but an epic PC with 12th level spells can potentially learn them as well. They aren't especially 'epic' in the sense that you're looking for (Rain of Chaos, for example, calls down 2d6 Infernals per round for up to 3 rounds, and they stick around permanently). They only take up about two pages in the book, so it's hardly a major focus. 

--Impeesa--


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Impeesa mate! 



			
				Impeesa said:
			
		

> So I picked up Warcraft: Shadows & Light today. I think some of you might like it - it's filled with NPCs and greater beings of rather impressive power. It also has the Eternal template, a CR +7/LA +13 alternative to the non-ogc (at the time of the writing) template from D&Dg, and 36 new epic feats. Just for fun, here's the CR spread:
> 
> Legendary heroes and villains: 22, 15, 27, 35, 22, 22, 21, 25, 43, 17, 17, 22, 38, 28, 23, 25, 21
> 
> Lords of the Burning Legion: 50, 59, 45, 44
> 
> Ancients: 54, 44, 52, 44, 92, 62, 52, 52, 42
> 
> Dragon Aspects: 30, 32, 34, 30, 30
> 
> Elemental Lords: 35, 50, 40, 45
> 
> Titans: 30 (non-unique), 28 (non-unique), 71, 77, 70, 73, 65, 74, 73
> 
> Other non-unique monsters from the Cosmology chapter: 11, 15, 19, 28, 8
> 
> There's also some other epic-related stuff like a few new spells, and some artifacts. Pretty cool all around.




Sounds like my kind of book. Thanks for the heads up dude. 

The ancients sound very interesting, though I am wondering how similar the Titans are to their MM and ELH counterparts?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Alzrius mate! 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> I know I'm late to this, but last I checked, they were "altraloths" not "altroloths".




You sure?

Altradaemons should do the job then.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> That's what I recall from _Dragon Annual #2_. It's picky, I know, but greatness is found in the details.




I can't find my copy of Dragon Annual #2 anywhere. The Night Hags must have stole it.   

Thanks for the info.


----------



## Impeesa

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Sounds like my kind of book. Thanks for the heads up dude.
> 
> The ancients sound very interesting, though I am wondering how similar the Titans are to their MM and ELH counterparts?




The ancients are some sort of powerful spirits of nature. Think Princess Mononoke, although most of them can take other forms. Elune (moon goddess, at CR 92 there) is the only true godly being in the Warcraft world. 

The Titans are a pantheon of powerful beings who give life to whole worlds, and the two non-unique varieties of titan (at CR 28 and 30) are presented for reference - each of the unique titans is built on one of those two races, with the Eternal template and lots of class levels. The base titan races (Aesir and Vanir) are fairly similar, one is air/water aligned and one is earth aligned. They have fairly 'epic'-feeling abilities (40 mile blindsense, can accelerate indefinitely while flying, for moving between worlds, etc). Unlike D&D titans, they don't cast spells (although most of the unique ones gain them from class levels), but they do get some nice at-will spell-like abilities related to their elements. They have a variety of nifty defensive abilities, dominate monster at will, etc.. I think the only real similarity to D&D titans is the fact that they're gargantuan humanlike creatures that beat things down with warhammers. 

Also, while I've got your attention, I had a question about the IH that I've been meaning to ask. You mentioned before that portfolios are handled by templates, right? Are the abilities granted by a portfolio exclusively oriented towards gods, or could you apply them to other beings to create some unique outsiders? Could you have, say, a solar with the Fire portfolio template? I guess that's sort of a bad example, since a solar is quasi-divine already, but you know what I mean. 

--Impeesa--


----------



## Alzrius

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> You sure?




99.99% sure. It would be 100%, but my copy of DA2 is in the attic, and I'm not going in there!

Seriously though, it's "altraloths". I'd bet anything on it.



> _Altradaemons should do the job then._




Looking forward to them!



> _Thanks for the info._




Always happy to help in my own little way.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Impeesa mate! 



			
				Impeesa said:
			
		

> The ancients are some sort of powerful spirits of nature. Think Princess Mononoke, although most of them can take other forms. Elune (moon goddess, at CR 92 there) is the only true godly being in the Warcraft world.




CR 92 (official CR 92 that is) would make for an interesting Intermediate Deity.



			
				Impeesa said:
			
		

> The Titans are a pantheon of powerful beings who give life to whole worlds, and the two non-unique varieties of titan (at CR 28 and 30) are presented for reference - each of the unique titans is built on one of those two races, with the Eternal template and lots of class levels. The base titan races (Aesir and Vanir) are fairly similar, one is air/water aligned and one is earth aligned. They have fairly 'epic'-feeling abilities (40 mile blindsense, can accelerate indefinitely while flying, for moving between worlds, etc). Unlike D&D titans, they don't cast spells (although most of the unique ones gain them from class levels), but they do get some nice at-will spell-like abilities related to their elements. They have a variety of nifty defensive abilities, dominate monster at will, etc.. I think the only real similarity to D&D titans is the fact that they're gargantuan humanlike creatures that beat things down with warhammers.




Very nice, especially the Aesir/Vanir thing.



			
				Impeesa said:
			
		

> Also, while I've got your attention, I had a question about the IH that I've been meaning to ask. You mentioned before that portfolios are handled by templates, right?




Yes. 



			
				Impeesa said:
			
		

> Are the abilities granted by a portfolio exclusively oriented towards gods,




Not really.



			
				Impeesa said:
			
		

> or could you apply them to other beings to create some unique outsiders?




Yes. In fact I comment on this in the book that within their realm the gods might have servants with the same benefits as the portfolio.



			
				Impeesa said:
			
		

> Could you have, say, a solar with the Fire portfolio template? I guess that's sort of a bad example, since a solar is quasi-divine already, but you know what I mean.




You could, although beings like Planetars and Solar will already have some portfolio traits integral to their being.

Also (as a purely design aspect) you might want to consider adding additional hit dice (along with the portfolio) so that there is no 'golden rule' problem.


----------



## Anabstercorian

Three more puppies!  *foom*


----------



## Impeesa

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Yes. In fact I comment on this in the book that within their realm the gods might have servants with the same benefits as the portfolio.




Nifty. 

_*throws puppy into furnace*_

--Impeesa--


----------



## Upper_Krust

*Dives in to rescue puppies*

Just wanted to add that today I managed to pick up that Warcraft: Shadows & Light book today. I haven't had time to read much yet, though a quick flick through looked very interesting, lots of new epic material. Hopefully I'll get to read some more tonight with a review sometime in the future.


----------



## Darkness

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> 5) Balrogs (I'd like to use something like this for the name of Chaotic Evil Infernals).



 I call them Abyssals.


----------



## Impeesa

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *Dives in to rescue puppies*
> 
> Just wanted to add that today I managed to pick up that Warcraft: Shadows & Light book today. I haven't had time to read much yet, though a quick flick through looked very interesting, lots of new epic material. Hopefully I'll get to read some more tonight with a review sometime in the future.




Cool, hope you find it interesting.  You'll notice the stat blocks use a lot of material from earlier Warcraft books - if you're curious about what any of it does, shoot me an email and I can fill you in. 

--Impeesa--


----------



## S'mon

Hi Craig!



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hi all!
> 
> I am wondering if I can get a second opinion on certain words and whether they would be copyright protected or not.
> 
> 1) Baernodaemons (as in Baernoloths, although I don't want to mention that word).
> 2) Altrodaemons (as above)
> 3) Demodand (not Gehreleth)
> 4) The Wasting Tower (as in the place the Daemons rule Hades from)
> 5) Balrogs (I'd like to use something like this for the name of Chaotic Evil Infernals).
> 
> None of these are detailed, simply referenced once or twice. I'm just wondering which I'll have to change. Balrog is perhaps a given, but I am wondering if theres something similar...but different.




None of these are copyrightable under UK or US law, though WoTC might class some as Product Identity under the OGL meaning you can't use them while abiding by the OGL.  Use would not infringe UK Trademark law but in the US it conceivably could, though I reckon not use in the way you describe.  You real question though is whether you'd get a nasty letter from a US in-house lawyer for WoTC or the Tolkien estate (or whoever thinks they 'own' Balrog - NB even if Balrog were a registered TM in the UK your use wouldn't be infringing the TM under UK law).  As has been said, there seems a possibility of this re 'balrog' due to prior TSR-Tolkien Estate wrangles.  This does not mean they have a legal right to prevent people using the word, it just means they act as if they have that right, a very important distinction.  You can end up in court without having done anything illegal.

(BTW I recommend www.chillingeffects.org)


----------



## CRGreathouse

(Note: I'm not even close to a lawyer)



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> None of these are copyrightable under UK or US law, though WoTC might class some as Product Identity under the OGL meaning you can't use them while abiding by the OGL.  Use would not infringe UK Trademark law but in the US it conceivably could, though I reckon not use in the way you describe.  You real question though is whether you'd get a nasty letter from a US in-house lawyer for WoTC or the Tolkien estate (or whoever thinks they 'own' Balrog - NB even if Balrog were a registered TM in the UK your use wouldn't be infringing the TM under UK law).  As has been said, there seems a possibility of this re 'balrog' due to prior TSR-Tolkien Estate wrangles.  This does not mean they have a legal right to prevent people using the word, it just means they act as if they have that right, a very important distinction.  You can end up in court without having done anything illegal.




I agree that none of these are subject to copyright, under any laws I've ever heard of.  I have seen similar terms used as US trademarks, so this is a possibility (even if they couldn't be UK trademarks).

None of these terms is claimed by Wizards of the Coast as Product Identity, but could be in some way Intellectual Property.

I'd stay away from anything Tolkien Estates thinks it owns; it loves to use its lawyers, and can afford a court battle that you couldn't.


----------



## Anabstercorian

*more kittens, puppies* "Release!  RELEASE!"


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Darkness! 



			
				Darkness said:
			
		

> I call them Abyssals.




I (now) call them Lelirium which is an alternate name for Igneus Demons (aka Balors in D&D).

So maybe Balrogs are the name for advanced Balors.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Impeesa mate! 



			
				Impeesa said:
			
		

> Cool, hope you find it interesting.




It looks like good stuff...now all I need is the time to read it! 



			
				Impeesa said:
			
		

> You'll notice the stat blocks use a lot of material from earlier Warcraft books -




Yes there does seem quite a bit of that.



			
				Impeesa said:
			
		

> if you're curious about what any of it does, shoot me an email and I can fill you in.




I'll probably be okay with it, but I reserve the right to contact you just in case. Thanks dude.


----------



## Upper_Krust

S'mon said:
			
		

> Hi Craig!




Hey S'mon! 



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> None of these are copyrightable under UK or US law, though WoTC might class some as Product Identity under the OGL meaning you can't use them while abiding by the OGL.  Use would not infringe UK Trademark law but in the US it conceivably could, though I reckon not use in the way you describe.  You real question though is whether you'd get a nasty letter from a US in-house lawyer for WoTC or the Tolkien estate (or whoever thinks they 'own' Balrog - NB even if Balrog were a registered TM in the UK your use wouldn't be infringing the TM under UK law).  As has been said, there seems a possibility of this re 'balrog' due to prior TSR-Tolkien Estate wrangles.  This does not mean they have a legal right to prevent people using the word, it just means they act as if they have that right, a very important distinction.  You can end up in court without having done anything illegal.
> 
> (BTW I recommend www.chillingeffects.org)




Thanks for the info. I think I'll err on the side of caution where possible, since the previously mentioned words are not crucial in any way, simply a convenience.

In place of Graz'zt, Fraz-Urb'luu and Zuggtmoy I use Choronz'zon, Far-Zul'hur, and Tsuggothia. Orcus, Pazuzu and Demogorgon references were unchanged. All six are mentioned but briefly.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey CRGreathouse mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> (Note: I'm not even close to a lawyer)




S'mon is, specialising in copyright law.   

I still remember is dressing down of AEG staff when we spotted Worship Points System at the back of one of their books at Gencon UK a few years back.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I agree that none of these are subject to copyright, under any laws I've ever heard of.  I have seen similar terms used as US trademarks, so this is a possibility (even if they couldn't be UK trademarks).
> 
> None of these terms is claimed by Wizards of the Coast as Product Identity, but could be in some way Intellectual Property.
> 
> I'd stay away from anything Tolkien Estates thinks it owns; it loves to use its lawyers, and can afford a court battle that you couldn't.




That might work to my advantage. If the Tolkein estate end up taking me for every penny that could mean they have to pay off my student debts. Hurrah! I'm changing the name to the Balrog's Handbook by Gandalf the Grey! Thats what i'm Tolkein about!* 

*please excuse the bad pun...its late in the day.


----------



## Alzrius

U_K, your using of Tsuggothia makes me wonder, what would the IH take on the Cthulhu mythos be? (I'll ask more pointed questions than this admittedly-vague one as per your answers   ).


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Alzrius mate! 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> U_K, your using of Tsuggothia makes me wonder, what would the IH take on the Cthulhu mythos be? (I'll ask more pointed questions than this admittedly-vague one as per your answers   ).




Well the Cthulhu mythos would relate to the Far Realm (esoteric name: The Abyss*, a.k.a. The Seventh Dimension), with such beings akin to pseudonaturals (esoteric name: Zoas).

*Not to be confused with the home of Demons (which is why I use Far Realm instead of Abyss).

I have a few new pseudonaturals in the IH, namely the Cogent and The Krangar, but I'll probably reserve a major discussion on the Pseudonaturals for a second bestiary.

The first bestiary details the Angels, Intelligibles and Umbrals. In the second bestiary I'll detail the Elementarchs, Inevitables and Pseudonaturals. Then you'll have all the major dimensional races covered.

The Cthulhu Trinity (Azathoth, Shub-Niggurath and Yog-Sothoth) would probably be considered sidereals under my auspices.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> The Cthulhu Trinity (Azathoth, Shub-Niggurath and Yog-Sothoth) would probably be considered sidereals under my auspices.




Have you seen their d20 stats in WotC's Call of Cthulhu?


----------



## Alzrius

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Well the Cthulhu mythos would relate to the Far Realm




That one I sort of guessed at.  

Quick sidebar: This is probably a silly question, but have you seen _Legends of Avadnu_? I ask because it's a great collection fo epic creatures. The Lumina, especially, tickled my fancy, as they're basically the angels of the Far Realm (that's an oversimplification, but it sums them up about right). Finally, celestials that have a definite reason to attack good-aligned PCs!



> _I have a few new pseudonaturals in the IH, namely the Cogent and The Krangar, but I'll probably reserve a major discussion on the Pseudonaturals for a second bestiary._




Hey now, no fair talking about books that won't be released until after I die.   



> ]_The first bestiary details the Angels, Intelligibles and Umbrals. In the second bestiary I'll detail the Elementarchs, Inevitables and Pseudonaturals. Then you'll have all the major dimensional races covered._




I feel like I should know this already, but where are demons and devils in there?



> _The Cthulhu Trinity (Azathoth, Shub-Niggurath and Yog-Sothoth) would probably be considered sidereals under my auspices._




I second what CRGreathouse said; check out the stats for these three, and the Great Old Ones in the D&D appendix of _Call of Cthulhu d20_. Here's the web enhancement that has stats for Y'golonac (and shantaks).

Also, if you can get a copy, check out the _Encyclopedia Cthulhiana_ (preferrably the _Expanded and Revised Edition_ (or something like that) which is more inclusive than the first version) since it's probably the single greatest resource book for all things Mythos ever printed.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey guys! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Have you seen their d20 stats in WotC's Call of Cthulhu?




Yes I own that book.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> That one I sort of guessed at.






Any deity that predates humanoid life is probably a sidereal.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Quick sidebar: This is probably a silly question, but have you seen _Legends of Avadnu_? I ask because it's a great collection fo epic creatures.




I don't own it (if I could buy pdfs I would) but I have seen the preview. Very nice.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> The Lumina, especially, tickled my fancy, as they're basically the angels of the Far Realm (that's an oversimplification, but it sums them up about right). Finally, celestials that have a definite reason to attack good-aligned PCs!




From what I have heard there are a lot of good ideas in that book. I think the Bygone Template is a great idea.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Hey now, no fair talking about books that won't be released until after I die.




Sorry dude. 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> I feel like I should know this already, but where are demons and devils in there?




Fallen Angels, either directly or indirectly.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> I second what CRGreathouse said; check out the stats for these three, and the Great Old Ones in the D&D appendix of _Call of Cthulhu d20_. Here's the web enhancement that has stats for Y'golonac (and shantaks).




Thanks, though I have already seen all the stats and web enhancement. 

The stats didn't really impress me either physically or philosophically, but you can probably see why they are set at that power level.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Also, if you can get a copy, check out the _Encyclopedia Cthulhiana_ (preferrably the _Expanded and Revised Edition_ (or something like that) which is more inclusive than the first version) since it's probably the single greatest resource book for all things Mythos ever printed.




I think Simon once recommended that book to me though I have never encountered it myself.


----------



## S'mon

CRGreathouseI agree that none of these are subject to copyright said:
			
		

> (I teach UK intellectual property law, not US law, but I do read a lot on US law).
> 
> Almost anything can be a trademark; the question is whether use of that word by someone else is an infringing use.  Trademarks have to denote the origin of goods or services ("service marks").  EG: if someone makes Balrog tires and I start selling my own tires calling them Balrog tires, I've infringed their mark.  If I sell Balrog ice cream I almost certainly haven't infringed their mark.
> You can only infringe a trademark under the US Lanham Act by "commercial use" - use denoting the origin of goods or services.  UK law is amost identical, you can only infringe a trademark by use "in the course of trade", possibly a slightly narrower definition than "commercial use".


----------



## Alzrius

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Fallen Angels, either directly or indirectly.




I'm curious about that. If demons and devils are supposed to be intrinsically evil beings (e.g. formed from Evil), then what does it say that they're all rooted to Goodness? Are there other creatures that you have as being pure in their evil?



> _I think Simon once recommended that book to me though I have never encountered it myself._




Anyone who is a Mythos fan should do themselves a favor and get that book. It's *THAT* good.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Merry Xmas all! 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> I'm curious about that. If demons and devils are supposed to be intrinsically evil beings (e.g. formed from Evil), then what does it say that they're all rooted to Goodness? Are there other creatures that you have as being pure in their evil?




Well, lets see if I can simplify the answer.

Initially there were only good spirits (angels). However when the outer planes (sixth dimension) bled into the other dimensions (the prime material plane in particular introduced the concept of free will) and vice versa that had the dual effect of both corrupting some existing angels, and allowing spirits to be created that were of any alignment.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Anyone who is a Mythos fan should do themselves a favor and get that book. It's *THAT* good.




If I ever find a copy I'll buy it.


----------



## Anabstercorian

**shovels kittens and puppies and even tadpoles in to the furnace of firey scorching with wild abandon!**


----------



## CRGreathouse

Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> **shovels kittens and puppies and even tadpoles in to the furnace of firey scorching with wild abandon!**




Now don't you worry; I have faith that U_K will have all four of his book out by my birthday.  I'm just hoping the Beastiary and Apotheosis are significantly sooner....


----------



## devilish

CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Now don't you worry; I have faith that U_K will have all four of his book out by my birthday.  I'm just hoping the Beastiary and Apotheosis are significantly sooner....




I'm hoping your birthday is Jan 2nd.


----------



## jcw8705

You might consider utilizing the names for Graz'zt and the others that Green Ronin did in Armies of the Abyss (if that section was OGC at least).  Since that product didn't provide stats for them, that allows for further cross-product recognition while pointing people in your direction for the gaming stats.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey all! 

Sorry for the slow response boards still seem a bit sluggish for me.

Anyway, I have been pondering on releasing the first half of the Bestiary (80 pages, 36 monsters for $5) next week.

Naturally anyone who then bought the full Bestiary would get that for half the $10 price.

Any thoughts on the idea? I know it isn't ideal but I'd like to release something as soon as possible, I feel terrible keeping you all waiting.

Hey jcw8705! 



			
				jcw8705 said:
			
		

> You might consider utilizing the names for Graz'zt and the others that Green Ronin did in Armies of the Abyss (if that section was OGC at least).  Since that product didn't provide stats for them, that allows for further cross-product recognition while pointing people in your direction for the gaming stats.




Well firstly I don't know if those Green Ronin names are themselves OGL?

Secondly, I no longer have Armies of the Abyss (I gave it to S'mon) - I was planning on buying the Book of Fiends but haven't got round to that yet. So I can't recall the names offhand.

One other point of OGL I'm worried about is that I want the first monster in the book - the Amilictli (Abomination) to be able to summon Thunder Worms (from the Fiend Folio - offhand I can't recall if its the Fiend Folio or the Monster Manual 2. Can I even mention that as a summons or will I have to change that to Air Elemental I wonder?


----------



## Knight Otu

Unless you or your publisher can get permission from WotC for material not in the SRD (and the FF is not in the SRD), consider that material as off-limits. That's the safest route to take. 

 *smuggles a few puppies out and replaces them with hell hound puppies*


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Anyway, I have been pondering on releasing the first half of the Bestiary (80 pages, 36 monsters for $5) next week.
> 
> Naturally anyone who then bought the full Bestiary would get that for half the $10 price.




I'd love that.


----------



## Fieari

Please.


----------



## Impeesa

_*zombie moan*_ COOONNNTEEEEENNNNT!

--Impeesa--


----------



## Alzrius

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hey all!
> 
> Sorry for the slow response boards still seem a bit sluggish for me.
> 
> Anyway, I have been pondering on releasing the first half of the Bestiary (80 pages, 36 monsters for $5) next week.
> 
> Naturally anyone who then bought the full Bestiary would get that for half the $10 price.
> 
> Any thoughts on the idea? I know it isn't ideal but I'd like to release something as soon as possible, I feel terrible keeping you all waiting.




I'll probably get lynched for saying this, but I think it's a bad idea. Rushed releases never, in my experience, have favorable results. There's always something that you'd have done differently, or included, etc. While I feel the waiting as much as anyone here, I'd rather have a truly great product later than one that's just good now.



> _Well firstly I don't know if those Green Ronin names are themselves OGL?
> 
> Secondly, I no longer have Armies of the Abyss (I gave it to S'mon) - I was planning on buying the Book of Fiends but haven't got round to that yet. So I can't recall the names offhand._




I don't own _The Book of Fiends_, but I do have my copy of _Armies of the Abyss_ handy. According to the designation of OGC on page 1, the "name, statistics, and obedience of each demon prince in Chapter Three" are OGC. Note that the listed names there are Abaddon, Abraxus, Anarazel, Astaroth, Azazel, Azidahaka, Behemoth, Decarabia, Eligor, Flauros, Gamigin, Haagenti, Ipos, Marbas, Nocticula, Raum, Sabnach, Seere, Shax, Socothbenoth, and Vepar. I don't know if more were added or not in _The Book of Fiends_.



> _One other point of OGL I'm worried about is that I want the first monster in the book - the Amilictli (Abomination) to be able to summon Thunder Worms (from the Fiend Folio - offhand I can't recall if its the Fiend Folio or the Monster Manual 2. Can I even mention that as a summons or will I have to change that to Air Elemental I wonder?_




To be succinct, you can't mention Thunder Worms. None of the content in the MMII or FF is OGC. WotC is supposed to be relatively nice about giving permission, but that must be specially sought and obtained. Your one point of "wiggle room" might be if you could make a case that your Thunder Worms aren't those from the _Fiend Folio_ (where their stats are), but that would be cutting it rather close, and you'd then have to have some other source with monsters named that.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Alzrius said:
			
		

> I'll probably get lynched for saying this, but I think it's a bad idea. Rushed releases never, in my experience, have favorable results. There's always something that you'd have done differently, or included, etc. While I feel the waiting as much as anyone here, I'd rather have a truly great product later than one that's just good now.




This reasoning is exactly why I want it released now.  He'll release the whole thing later, so we'll get everything done differently -- as it should have been -- the second time around, with our discount too.  A bit of cash flow should ease problems on Craig's side, and let him do the complete work the right way.

That is, I think by releasing it now we *improve* the chances that the finished product will be great, not reduce them.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Knight Otu mate! 



			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> Unless you or your publisher can get permission from WotC for material not in the SRD (and the FF is not in the SRD), consider that material as off-limits. That's the safest route to take.




Fair enough, well unfortunately thats going to have to be *yawn* Air Elementals then. 

When I release it I'll make sure to note on the website that it should have been Thunder Worms. 



			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> *smuggles a few puppies out and replaces them with hell hound puppies*




Good idea.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey all! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I'd love that.






			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> Please.






			
				Impeesa said:
			
		

> *zombie moan* COOONNNTEEEEENNNNT!




Not sure if you are contented or asking for the contents?

Suffice to say it would be the first 36 monsters on the list on the website. Which offhand I think is Amilictli to Grigori.

One change would be that I am going to replace the Neutronium Golem (which may be too powerful even for me!) with Ioun Golem (I finally figured out how to make that monster work). But don't worry, if I do that I'll release it on the website anyhow.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> I'll probably get lynched for saying this,




I appreciate all constructive criticism mate.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> but I think it's a bad idea.




WHAT!? Are you crazy - somebody lynch him! 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Rushed releases never, in my experience, have favorable results.




Well, firstly, its not really rushed, simply that I'll have 80 pages finished before I'll have 160 pages finished (even though work on the second half of the Bestiary is partially completed).



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> There's always something that you'd have done differently, or included, etc. While I feel the waiting as much as anyone here, I'd rather have a truly great product later than one that's just good now.




Thats one reason why this 'preview' will only be limited release from my website, rather than an 'official' release.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> I don't own _The Book of Fiends_, but I do have my copy of _Armies of the Abyss_ handy. According to the designation of OGC on page 1, the "name, statistics, and obedience of each demon prince in Chapter Three" are OGC. Note that the listed names there are Abaddon, Abraxus, Anarazel, Astaroth, Azazel, Azidahaka, Behemoth, Decarabia, Eligor, Flauros, Gamigin, Haagenti, Ipos, Marbas, Nocticula, Raum, Sabnach, Seere, Shax, Socothbenoth, and Vepar. I don't know if more were added or not in _The Book of Fiends_.




None of those are the alternate names however. I believe the alternate names are in a table governing portfolios. They will be accompanied by Demogorgon and Orcus, since they can be used by anyone.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> To be succinct, you can't mention Thunder Worms. None of the content in the MMII or FF is OGC. WotC is supposed to be relatively nice about giving permission, but that must be specially sought and obtained. Your one point of "wiggle room" might be if you could make a case that your Thunder Worms aren't those from the _Fiend Folio_ (where their stats are), but that would be cutting it rather close, and you'd then have to have some other source with monsters named that.




It'll be Air Elementals for the preview, I'll see about getting Thunder Worms for the full release.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey CRGreathouse matey! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> This reasoning is exactly why I want it released now.  He'll release the whole thing later, so we'll get everything done differently -- as it should have been -- the second time around, with our discount too.




Think of this as your way to help me, help you, help me...or something like that.    



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> A bit of cash flow should ease problems on Craig's side, and let him do the complete work the right way.




Yes that would be much appreciated, even a small amount would alleviate certain problems here that conspire to slow my progress.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> That is, I think by releasing it now we *improve* the chances that the finished product will be great, not reduce them.




I can only see it helping.


----------



## Kalanyr

Plus think of all the puppies that you'll save!


----------



## devilish

Do it - do it - do it!  Please..... 

Would it just be the actual creatures or 
also the supplemental rules, appendices, etc.

Thanks,
-D


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Kalanyr matey! 



			
				Kalanyr said:
			
		

> Plus think of all the puppies that you'll save!




Yes, otherwise I'll have animal rights activists breathing down my neck. 

Hiya Devilish dude! 



			
				Devilish said:
			
		

> Do it - do it - do it! Please.....




Most people seem to be in favour of it.



			
				Devilish said:
			
		

> Would it just be the actual creatures or also the supplemental rules, appendices, etc.




Well, lets see...

Page 2 lists Contents.
Page 3 is Creatures by CR/ECL and Type Tables...the CR Table will only be half finished.
Pages 4-7 is an article called Size Matters. This deals with everything up to Universe sized, though the tables only extend to MegaFine. Theres also stuff on how density affects strength (and vice versa), virtual size categories, a Universal Damage Table and subsequent modifiers (by type and shape).
Pages 8-9 are a brief examination of the relative dimensions...I really like the way this has turned out.

The rest would be the monster entries. Though there are additional information pages for some of the entries. Half of page 10 is devoted to Abominations. There are also two pages for both Angels (Hierarchy, Armies, Relationships, and some secret stuff) and Dragons (New Types, Age Tables, Dragon Creation etc.). There is also a page each for Daemons, Demons and Devils. At the moment I am debating whether or not to have a page for the Brood (aka Slaad) Hierarchy, but I might save that for the second Bestiary where I plan to have a handful of Brood detailed.



			
				Devilish said:
			
		

> Thanks,




Anytime mate!


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> At the moment I am debating whether or not to have a page for the Brood (aka Slaad) Hierarchy, but I might save that for the second Bestiary where I plan to have a handful of Brood detailed.




I would, of course, like to see this here.


----------



## devilish

Just finished "On Writing" by Stephen King who recommends, after you 
finish your first draft "with the door closed", you should invite half a dozen
of your friends to review it "with the door open" before putting your finishing
touches on it.

sounds like a good idea to me.....


----------



## CRGreathouse

devilish said:
			
		

> Just finished "On Writing" by Stephen King who recommends, after you
> finish your first draft "with the door closed", you should invite half a dozen
> of your friends to review it "with the door open" before putting your finishing
> touches on it.
> 
> sounds like a good idea to me.....




Along those lines, I'll note that I do freelance editing.  (I'm good, too.  )

Good luck!


----------



## Baronovan

Go for it. It might be a good move for more than one reason.


----------



## CRGreathouse

How's the progress?  Were you serious about having it "next week" (that is, by the 8th), or when should we expect it?

What will be the logistics of purchasing it -- will you have something on your site or use another provider (RPGNow)?  What payment methods are possible?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey all! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> How's the progress?




Pretty good, some of the art peices are trickier than others and I still need to write up the dragon examples. Those are the two major hurdles at the moment. Most of the entries also need some work, although generally minor things, or stuff I already have finished and just need typed up.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Were you serious about having it "next week" (that is, by the 8th), or when should we expect it?




It'll be available before next Monday. So probably Saturday or Sunday (knowing me) are the most likely days.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> What will be the logistics of purchasing it -- will you have something on your site or use another provider (RPGNow)?




Given that this is a limited release preview I don't want to use rpgnow or similar providers until I get the full bestiary completed.

At this stage I am hoping people can just paypal me the money and then I could email them the pdf. Obviously some automated process would be best (otherwise you would have to wait until my waking hours) but at this point I don't really know enough about such things and I don't want to have to go away and spend a day researching it (even though I am sure its very simple...if you know how). 

I will email my website providers tonight and ask them how I can do something like that.

If anyone here has any advice on the matter, by all means let me know.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> What payment methods are possible?




Paypal would be preferred at this stage. I'm not totally sure if you need a paypal account to transfer money into another paypal account but I suspect you do...?

I'll check Paypals customer service later today.

If thats not going to be convenient for some people then I might be able to make other arrangements.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> If thats not going to be convenient for some people then I might be able to make other arrangements.




It's inconvenient, but not too inconvenient.  I refuse to deal with them now (they've been a hassle in the past), but I think I have a friend with an account and I'll just give him cash to buy it for me.

Actually, I should check on that now... I hope he still has his account.


----------



## Alzrius

I hope there's a way to use them without needing an account with them, since I personally dislike Paypal and prefer not to use it.


----------



## Fieari

I'm bumping this up because I need it on the front page for my sanity.  Not knowing where this thread is hurts me inside.

So... tommorow or the day after tommorow... 0.5 of the Bestiary.  Finally, we'll get to see some of your hard work!


----------



## Verequus

Hiya mate! 

 I thought, you may want to put yourself into this thread:

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=113213&page=1&pp=20


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Fieari mate! 



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> I'm bumping this up because I need it on the front page for my sanity.  Not knowing where this thread is hurts me inside.
> 
> So... tommorow or the day after tommorow... 0.5 of the Bestiary.  Finally, we'll get to see some of your hard work!




...well, actually it might take a day or two more.     

I'll likely get someone to proof read it before I release it, so that might take a day, also if truth be told neither the writing nor the art is completely finished at this point in time, thats going to need at least 48 hours.

Things are moving on at pace, although I have recently realised I'm going to have to finish at least a dozen new epic spells in the book and about half a dozen epic magic items (which of course I wouldn't have needed to explain if I'd released the Grimoire first.   

So I can only apologise once again for my continued procrastination, its not intentional I assure you. I know many of you must be wondering when things will get done and I just want to say thanks for your continued support and patience. 

Yours sincerely,
                    Craig Cochrane


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Rulemaster dude! 



			
				RuleMaster said:
			
		

> Hiya mate!
> 
> I thought, you may want to put yourself into this thread:
> 
> http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=113213&page=1&pp=20




At the moment I don't feel worthy enough to add my name to that exalted list.   

Maybe when I get the Bestiary finished I will be in better spirits.

...by the way I appreciate the sig. Only too happy to help a friend.


----------



## Anabstercorian

Looks like I won't need that industrial-strength Puppy Crippler(tm) after all!


----------



## CRGreathouse

Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> Looks like I won't need that industrial-strength Puppy Crippler(tm) after all!




Save it for encouraging him to finish Apotheosis quickly once he has the Beastiary out.


----------



## Anabstercorian

Worst case scenario, I can always use it to pick flowers.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Does anyone feel like setting up a betting pool on the dates?  We have:
* Beastiary, part I
* Beastiary, finished
* Apotheosis

I'll throw in a +2 halberd with a very minor curse and some prime Westron real estate* for whoever's closest!

* Currently occupied by hobgoblin raiders


----------



## Baronovan

Well, considering that this is a 70+ page thread with nothing but people wanting to know when the product will be released, I'd even dare to say that the production has grown stagnant with revisions and tweeks and whathaveyou and might _never_ see the light of day... but that's the pessimist in me. I'd say by February... 16th we'll see the Bestiary 0.5 in all it's unfinished glory.


----------



## Verequus

Actually, I believe, Bestiary 0.5 will be out as late as this very sunday - as long UK doesn't die or lands in the hospital or the apocalypse comes or something like that.


----------



## CRGreathouse

RuleMaster said:
			
		

> Actually, I believe, Bestiary 0.5 will be out as late as this very sunday - as long UK doesn't die or lands in the hospital or the apocalypse comes or something like that.




You say that, but I don't see a minor magical item backing up your words. 

Beastiary 0.5:
2005-01-16: Rulemaster (January 16th)
2005-02-16: Baronovan (February 16th)

Current prizes: _+2 halberd_ (ages wielder 1d4 hours whenever used), land overrun by hobgoblins (80 rods by 10 furlongs, comes with indentured laborers)

Beastiary (PDF):

Beastiary (print):

Apotheosis (PDF):

Apotheosis (print):


----------



## Fieari

I think 0.5 will come in within the next two weeks.  Since we're doing a "closest date" thing, I'll go one day past Rulemaster, for a January 17th.

For the full bestiary?  Basing this on the time taken to go halfway since September when he started it in earnest... four and a half months would be a realistic bet, though it makes me cry.  May 31.

Apothesis is to far out yet to speculate on, more's the pity.

I'll throw a Greatsword of Great Cleave into the pot.  (Great cleave is a little over enthusiastic in this case... if there are no other valid targets to hit after you fell your target, you're going to hit either a friend or yourself)


----------



## Anabstercorian

For Beastiary 0.5, I'll go with the 18th.

For the full Beastiary, Summer 2005.

I'll put a Hewards Handy Haversack filled entirely with walnuts in the pile.


----------



## CRGreathouse

I've added my guesses (and a prize), as well as updating.

Beastiary 0.5:
2005-01-16: Rulemaster (January 16th)
2005-01-17: Fieari (January 17th)
2005-01-18: Anabstercorian (January 18th)
2005-01-31: CRGreathouse (January 31st)
2005-02-16: Baronovan (February 16th)

Current prizes: _+2 halberd_ (ages wielder 1d4 hours per strike), land from the far West (also claimed by hobgoblin soldiers)

Beastiary (PDF):
2005-05-31: Fieari (May 31st)
2005-07-01: Anabstercorian ("summer 2005")
2005-08-15: CRGreathouse (August 15th)

Current prizes: _Greatsword of great cleaving_ with a propensity for counterproductive bloodshed, _Hewards handy haversack_ with a full complement of walnuts, slightly-used _horn of fog_ (isn't that cursed enough already?)

Beastiary (print):

Apotheosis (PDF):

Apotheosis (print):


----------



## Anabstercorian

This is such a depressing game.


----------



## Kalanyr

I'm going to be optimistic and take Beastiary (PDF) for March 1st. 

I'll throw a deck of many things into the pot, (and its only missing half the beneficial cards).


----------



## Baronovan

Okay, put me down for Full Bestiary March 20th, Apotheosis (any of it) Fall '05 (round-about November 10th) and nothing else until '06.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Beastiary 0.5:
2005-01-16: Rulemaster (January 16th)
2005-01-17: Fieari (January 17th)
2005-01-18: Anabstercorian (January 18th)
2005-01-31: CRGreathouse (January 31st)
2005-02-16: Baronovan (February 16th)

Current prizes: _+2 halberd_ (slightly cursed), territory in far-off realms (with competing claims), and a _deck of many things_ with 2/3 bad cards

Beastiary (PDF):
2005-03-01: Kalanyr (March 1st)
2005-03-20: Baronovan (March 20th)
2005-05-31: Fieari (May 31st)
2005-07-01: Anabstercorian ("summer 2005")
2005-08-15: CRGreathouse (August 15th)

Current prizes: An overexuberent _greatsword of great cleaving_, _Heward's handy haversack_ and plenty of walnuts, a used _horn of fog_

Beastiary (print):

Apotheosis (PDF):
2005-11-10: Baronovan ("Fall '05")

Apotheosis (print):


----------



## Verequus

Hi UK!

 I did it! I passed the exam! YAAY!!    Just wanting to let you know, hehe... 

 BTW, I've seen on this thread  http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=114255&page=1&pp=20  on page 2 an interesting analysis of stat increases. Do you concer with it's results?

 And regarding the bet:

 I do a second try - UK finishes it in one month. My prize is a magical staff, which only power is the "strike of retribution".


----------



## Upper_Krust

RuleMaster said:
			
		

> Hi UK!




Hiya mate! 



			
				RuleMaster said:
			
		

> I did it! I passed the exam! YAAY!!    Just wanting to let you know, hehe...




Great news dude! I am very proud of you! I would never have forgiven myself if you failed.   



			
				RuleMaster said:
			
		

> BTW, I've seen on this thread  http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=114255&page=1&pp=20  on page 2 an interesting analysis of stat increases. Do you concer with it's results?




I dunno - I'll take a look if I get a moment.



			
				RuleMaster said:
			
		

> And regarding the bet:
> 
> I do a second try - UK finishes it in one month. My prize is a magical staff, which only power is the "strike of retribution".




Apologies if I have been a bit anonymous lately, just been busy, I didn't want to highlight my procrastination further by showing my face around here. No point giving a date because I don't seem to be able to work to them at the moment. Suffice to say it'll be ready when its ready and I'll make an announcement as soon as it is *gets back to work*.


----------



## Fieari

Looks like I need to re-ante up and choose a new date.

For the 0.5 Bestiary, lets go with February 1st.  For this wager, I'll be putting up a +1 Holy Flaming Teakettle.  Makes a heavenly good cup of tea.


----------



## Baronovan

So no pre-release, then?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				Baronovan said:
			
		

> So no pre-release, then?




Do you mean the half bestiary preview? If so then yes, although I'll refrain from saying when exactly to stop myself getting burnt.


----------



## Baronovan

Well, good luck. Make sure you're happy with it.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Apologies if I have been a bit anonymous lately, just been busy, I didn't want to highlight my procrastination further by showing my face around here. No point giving a date because I don't seem to be able to work to them at the moment. Suffice to say it'll be ready when its ready and I'll make an announcement as soon as it is *gets back to work*.




Hey, things happen and Real Life intrudes on the best-laid plans.  We're just keeping ourselves busy here, don't mind our little game.  

In any case, good luck with the Beastiary!  I'm looking forward to scaring my gaming group.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Beastiary 0.5:
2005-01-16: Rulemaster (January 16th)
2005-01-17: Fieari (January 17th)
2005-01-18: Anabstercorian (January 18th)
2005-01-31: CRGreathouse (January 31st)
2005-02-01: Fieari (February 1st)
2005-02-16: Baronovan (February 16th)
2005-02-17: Rulemaster ("in one month")

Current prizes: A _+2 halberd_ of aging, hobgoblin-infested land, a _deck of many things_ with mostly baleful cards, and a retributive staff.

Beastiary (PDF):
2005-03-01: Kalanyr (March 1st)
2005-03-20: Baronovan (March 20th)
2005-05-31: Fieari (May 31st)
2005-07-01: Anabstercorian ("summer 2005")
2005-08-15: CRGreathouse (August 15th)

Current prizes: A _greatsword of great cleaving_ that ignores its safety defaults, everyone's favorite extradimensional bag filled with nuts, and the worst 2000 gp item in the DMG.

Beastiary (print):

Apotheosis (PDF):
2005-11-10: Baronovan ("Fall '05")

Current prizes: A heavenly teamaker.

Apotheosis (print):


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi all! 

I started a new Immortals Handbook thread here:

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?p=1977845#post1977845

So if the moderators are about, feel free to lock this bad boy down.

I appreciate the time and energy people have put into the thread, and want to say a big thanks to all of you. 

The website has been updated with the first monster in the Bestiary, Amilictli (All-Relentless Thunder). So let me know what you all think...in the new thread that is.


----------



## Darkness

Sure thing, mate.


----------

