# [Dread] Jenga beat up my dice! My results from the indie horror RPG.



## Piratecat

I wrote this up earlier for personal reasons, and figured that cross-posting it might make some sense. I ran a Dread game at the EN World game day down in North Carolina. This thing won an ENnie last year, and I can see why; it's my new favorite horror game, trumping even CoC in terms of how much I liked the rules. I'd be curious to hear other folks' thoughts. If you want to pick the game up, you can do so from here.

-------------------------

I just ran my favorite horror game in years.

The previous winner was a session of Call of Cthulhu I ran at Anonycon five years ago, back when it was held at Yale. The PCs were Russian soldiers at the Battle of Stalingrad who were being stalked through the city’s sewers by something horrible. We ran the game in the school’s literary society. The players sat in low leather couches in the exact middle of a huge darkened library, dead animals looked down on us from the walls as we played, and I could easily walk around _behind_ the players as I ran the game. It was tailor-made for inducing nervousness. Notably, one player inadvertently screamed at a particularly scary moment.

And yet, this last weekend, I got almost as good an effect playing Dread in the middle of a loud, sunny, crowded room at the NC Game Day.

I mentioned it a few posts down (and if you want to pick the game up, you can do so from here). For me, Dread’s big mechanical advantage over CoC is that there’s no numbers or dice to futz with. I love gamey systems and game mechanics and rolling dice – I love D&D, right? – but only to the extent that they enhance a game’s mood instead of derailing it. Part of the fun of D&D and action-adventure is _making_ lots of combat rolls. Less so for horror, though. If I’m trying to scare folks or immerse them in the game, I don’t want dice rolls and combat statistics being a distraction.

So that brings us to Dread. I think Dread relies on two basic premises. The first is *make the player buy into their character.* There are absolutely no numbers on the character sheet, because the sheet is a thirteen question questionnaire that’s effectively one big Rorschach inkblot. Each player makes the PC uniquely theirs by answering the (occasionally loaded) questions. As a judge and scenario-writer, I find giving up this level on control to the player absolutely terrifying, but it’s also sort of freeing – and I can’t argue with the results.

For example, my game was set in the 1920’s. Xath played a flapper in her early 20’s. I originally pictured her as sort of innocent, a rich girl having naughty fun. But one of the questions was the very innocuous “Where did you get those shoes?” and her answer (paraphrased here) was completely character-defining.
“I was at a Harlem speakeasy swilling hooch with one of my friends when she tried to make a move on one of my swells. Once my ‘friend’ had passed out I took her into the alley around back and stripped her of money and clothes. I left her there naked and went on home. Her shoes look wonderful on me, and they’re _still_ my favorite pair.”​Wow. Okay, character established, and a lot darker and amoral than I had anticipated. And that character was evident in everything she did during the game.

The second basic premise seems to be *make the player responsible for his own fate.* This is where the Jenga tower comes in. I bought a Jenga knockoff for $6 before my trip – much to the consternation of airline security, as it turns out – and had some doubt about how well it would work. The way the game works is that a player pulls from the tower whenever they want to do something that is possible but not necessarily automatic based on their background. Knock down the tower and your character is out of the game – insane, dead, fled, something. A player can always choose not to pull, in which case they fail what they’re trying.  They also can choose to take one for the team, purposefully knock down the tower, and die, even as they succeed in what they were trying to do.

Despite great GMs at nearby tables, we had the entire room watching anxiously every time someone had to pull from the tower. I worried what would happen if a player knocked down the tower in half an hour.  Ha! The tension got excruciating after about 15 pulls, and my ninja Jenga-master players took somewhere between 24 and 27 pulls from the tower over four hours. It came perilously close to falling six or seven times, and usually for roleplaying instead of tactical reasons. 
"The rain is hitting you in the face, but you see movement high up on the roof."

    "It could be the killer! I shoot!"

    "You can not pull from the tower, in which case you'll miss; successfully pull and have a chance of hitting him; or pull, knock down the tower, and have something awful happen to you."

    Her eyes narrowed. "I'll pull."

    And after she was successful, I turned to the player up on the roof. "You can pull to avoid the bullet entirely, not pull to be hit but not incapacitated, or pull badly to catch the bullet in the teeth."

    He swallowed dryly. "I'll pull."​And then there was the aftermath of this scene. From Pielorinho:



			
				Pielorinho said:
			
		

> "The PCs are terrified that someone is trying to kill them. One PC gets a rifle. The other, having just been shot at and seeing the rifle, demands that the first PC hand it over; when he refuses, the two get into a struggle over it.
> 
> In Dread, that's handled by a pull from the Jenga tower. If you refuse to pull, the other PC gets the gun. If you pull and succeed, you gain control of the gun (until the other player decides to pull). If you pull and fail, you die horribly.
> 
> The players made a couple of pulls each as they struggled silently over the rifle, knowing that if they failed in their pull, the rifle would probably go off in their face, killing them instantly. Finally one player decided to back off, and the conflict was over.
> 
> *And it was over nothing.* Both players knew that there was nothing to be gained through this struggle; it was purely an expression of control, as the characters panicked at their lack of control over the situation. It was one of the least gamey moments I've seen in a roleplaying game."



And you could see the focus!  People weren’t fidgeting because they didn’t want to knock over the tower. They were _really_ paying attention, with no one wandering off when a pull occurred; everyone was rooting for (or, in a few cases, rooting against) the player. All that nervousness and stress then got funneled back into the game, ratcheting up the mood a little more. It was a lot like the saw-edge pattern of terror and humor you find in the pacing of a real horror movie.

As a convention game, the only problem I see is that filling out the questionnaire can take 20-30 minutes. I emailed mine ahead of time, which helped, but I can see it as an issue. On the other hand, I ran the game with just two index cards of notes – no NPC stats! – and that’s all I needed. I’ll be running this again at GenCon and locally.

Any takers?

-----------------------------

For any of the players from that game, I'll be curious about your impressions as well.


----------



## Masquerade

Thanks for posting your take on the game! I was interested in Dread when I first heard about it some time back, but never pursued it. I may have to reconsider.


----------



## Rodrigo Istalindir

Dibs on a spot in the GenCon game.   

It sounds like  a near-perfect gameday game.  

And come to think of it, it's probably the only RPG that the larger the party, the *more* dangerous it gets.  Well, ok, except for Paranoia.

Dread seemed to be the surprise hit of GenCon last year.  I heard a lot of people talking about it and asking questions.  Glad to hear it lives up to its promise.


----------



## Kafkonia

It sounds fascinating. I could never, ever play it -- I almost had anxiety attacks just trying to thread a needle in home ec back in junior high, and my fine motor control is such that I would never have a chance to succeed more than a couple of pulls into the game. But for the right market, it could be perfect.

That being said, I do wonder about the implications of the mechanics making success less likely -- and catastrophic failure more likely -- as time goes on. Does this differ markedly from traditional die-based gaming paradigms, or does it just heighten the escalating tension of horror games?


----------



## Clueless

Double dibs on a spot! I missed out the first time, I ain't missin' it this time!


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots

That is the best game mechanic _ever_. I'm tempted to buy Jenga just to be able to play Dread.


----------



## Zaruthustran

Holy cow, that sounds marvelous. I can definitely see how the Jenga tower would increment the tension, like the wheel of a rack. Best part is that it has a built-in "scarier, scaaarier, scaaaaaarier--AHHHHHHH!" mechanism. And then everything settles down to the baseline, only to crank up once again. Just like a horror movie.

Love it.

Question, though, for the big climax fight. If Bob pulls and dies, then Larry (and the rest of his party) get to pull with impunity. Does Dread address that? Maybe make two pulls per stunt at the end? Or just let the party whale on the monster, and it seemingly has no lasting effect (just like beating on Jason)?

-z


----------



## WhatGravitas

Zaruthustran said:
			
		

> Holy cow, that sounds marvelous. I can definitely see how the Jenga tower would increment the tension, like the wheel of a rack. Best part is that it has a built-in "scarier, scaaarier, scaaaaaarier--AHHHHHHH!" mechanism. And then everything settles down to the baseline, only to crank up once again. Just like a horror movie.



Totally awesome, indeed. Now, I only have to find a way to incorporate this into a D&D game! Perhaps... I'm replacing action points with "auto-success, but possible doom"-jenga powers!

In general... that's an awesome way to represent everything that gets more dangerous each time... hmmm...


----------



## jdrakeh

I reviewed Dread a while back and loved it. Dread is one of the first _truly_ innovative and meaningful indie games that I've seen -- the engine isn't a simple gimmick, but has been carefully structured to honor the tenets of the genre that the game purports to espouse. Dread delivers what many other games promise but can't produce.


----------



## FunkBGR

I've had Dread sitting on my shelf, and I just can't seem to find the gamers for it. Sounds awesome Piratecat - here's hoping I"ll get my chance someday soon.


----------



## coyote6

Assuming plans go as planned, sign me up for seat #3. 

[size=-2]Or #N+1, where N is the number of people who've already called dibs. Whichever.[/size]


----------



## Piratecat

Zaruthustran said:
			
		

> Question, though, for the big climax fight. If Bob pulls and dies, then Larry (and the rest of his party) get to pull with impunity. Does Dread address that? Maybe make two pulls per stunt at the end?



It does; knock down the tower, and you set it up with an immediate three pulls per remaining player. It'll start out rickety.

It's a good sign that I just ran it, and I really want to run it again.


----------



## Morrus

Wow - that sounds _really_ fun!  I'd love to play at GenCon if there's a space available!

Dammit.  How can I add Jenga to my D&D game next week?


----------



## Piratecat

Err... build little castles out of the blocks?  

This wouldn't work well for a high-combat game, I think. Too deadly.


----------



## Mark Hope

My gf and I were so impressed by the sound of this that she has just ordered a copy from our flgs _Gamers_ about a minute ago!

Cool writeup, Piratecat - sounds like a blast!


----------



## GQuail

I don't know if this is the stupidest or the greatest idea I've ever heard: perhaps a perfect synthesis of the two.  ;-)

I really like the idea of the Jenga tower as a clear physical prop to express the increasing difficulty of tasks - and as others have commented, it helps the horror style of "build up tension until it explodes".  Although my own motor skills leave a lot to be desired, I'm quite interested by this, and will probably check it out now.  ;-)


----------



## Desdichado

Wow, that sounds awesome!

The only question I have is; now that you've described how it works, what's the point in buying the game?  It sounds incredibly simple mechanically to the point that your brief summaries gave me enough I could run with, and the rest I can manage on my own.  What else does the package offer?


----------



## Piratecat

Hobo said:
			
		

> The only question I have is; now that you've described how it works, what's the point in buying the game?  It sounds incredibly simple mechanically to the point that your brief summaries gave me enough I could run with, and the rest I can manage on my own.  What else does the package offer?



Not only that, but you can download part of the rules for free at their website! Adventures, too. They make it easy for you to do this. But speaking for myself, I felt a heck of a lot more prepared after reading the book.

There's an extremely useful chapter on designing the questionnaires, along with a ton of examples -- each page of the book has sample questions running in the footer. There are multiple chapters on running different sorts of games: action, suspense, mysteries, gore, etc. There's also three or four adventures included, along with copious notes on what to expect and good tricks to use.


----------



## Tiew

Sounds extremely cool. Do you think it would be a good system for introducing new role-players to the idea of a role-playing game? I have literary type friends who'd probably get bored a few minutes into me describing the rules of D&D, but who might get into the interactive story thing.


----------



## Epidiah Ravachol

Hobo said:
			
		

> Wow, that sounds awesome!
> 
> The only question I have is; now that you've described how it works, what's the point in buying the game?  It sounds incredibly simple mechanically to the point that your brief summaries gave me enough I could run with, and the rest I can manage on my own.  What else does the package offer?



When we finally released the game in 2005, one of our first customers was a guy who was already running a Dread game. He had learned the rules by playing in a game of someone who played in a game of someone who played in one of our con games back in 2000.

I'm quite proud of how easily people have picked up on the rules and ran their own games with little to no input. The vast majority of the Dread book is simply advice on how to set-up and run a game--the sort of stuff Piratecat described in his post above. If you're interested in that,  please pick a copy up, either through our website or IPR.* 

If not, you should be okay with the sample chapter and quickstart rules over here. The one thing you might want to do, however, is find a game to play in before running it yourself. A lot of people find the pacing in Dread to be considerably different from most role-playing games. I spend some time in the book explaining it, but I suspect just participating in a game will make that part fairly clear.

* I recommend IPR if you think might be at all interested in any of their other games. Especially if you are getting it shipped in the US, where shipping is free if you purchase more than $35 worth of stuff.


----------



## Desdichado

Hey, thanks for the feeback, Epidiah!

I'll go check out your website forthwith.  Either way, I've already been highly impressed by this idea, and I've heard nothing but rave, rave reviews of the game session mentioned above over on ENWorld's sister site, Circvs Maximvs, where many of the people in the game (and in the room next to it) were able to see Dread in action.


----------



## Epidiah Ravachol

Tiew said:
			
		

> Sounds extremely cool. Do you think it would be a good system for introducing new role-players to the idea of a role-playing game? I have literary type friends who'd probably get bored a few minutes into me describing the rules of D&D, but who might get into the interactive story thing.



I'm biased, but I've seen many, many folk dragged to conventions by their spouses break their role-playing fast on Dread. I think your literary types will particularly enjoy the character creation method. It is essentially stolen from the writing exercises I had to do in college oh so many years ago.


----------



## Epidiah Ravachol

Hobo said:
			
		

> Hey, thanks for the feeback, Epidiah!
> 
> I'll go check out your website forthwith.  Either way, I've already been highly impressed by this idea, and I've heard nothing but rave, rave reviews of the game session mentioned above over on ENWorld's sister site, Circvs Maximvs, where many of the people in the game (and in the room next to it) were able to see Dread in action.



No problem. If you have any questions after viewing the material, I'll be happy to answer them.

Dread can be a bit of a spectator sport at conventions. And at home, that same quality really helps to focus the players' attention on what is happening whenever anyone goes to the tower. I suspect it is also why, even after their characters are removed from the game, players usually stick around to watch the fates of their companions unfold.


----------



## Lockridge

Thanks Epidiah,
I plan to check out the stuff you linked to.  The idea seems great.  In d20 its so difficult to make players actually nervous.  "A demon? I attack with my sword and collect my gold"
Cool.


----------



## GreatLemur

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Err... build little castles out of the blocks?
> 
> This wouldn't work well for a high-combat game, I think. Too deadly.



I dunno.  Lord Tirian's idea about using it for an action point mechanic might be workable.

In that kind of use, though, I almost have to wonder if each player should get their own tower, but that'd obviously just be a pain in the ass.  If everyone's pulling from the same tower, though, you'd need some mechanic to keep players from trying to hog all the early, easy pulls.  I really like the idea of the later, riskier pulls being worth more.  Also, maybe pulls from lower on the tower could be better?  I imagine they'd be harder.  I bet there are multi-colored Jenga set out there you could use to build color-coded towers...

And when somebody inevitably topples it, do they die (or go mad, get imprisoned, join the Dark Side, etc.) as in Dread, or should it be a lighter penalty, like a severe botch of what ever the character was attempting, probably incurring attacks of opportunity (even automatic hits?) if in combat.  And do you rebuild the tower immediately afterwards, or is the whole party denied their "action pulls" after one guy screws up?  Maybe the tower's rebuilt, but the player who knocked it over doesn't get to pull anymore?

This sounds like a hell of a lot of fun, really.  It'd make for a lot of action point use, though.  And it certainly wouldn't be as high-tension as Dread (unless you _do_ go with the topple-and-die option), but it would definitely add an interesting new element.  Worth trying out, I think.


----------



## Schwebs

The block tower to build suspense is genius. Perfect for the genre.

I think that incorporating some type of character defining q'naire (the 13 questions) is something that could be added to any RPG immediately. What a great way to help people new to role playing to get into character. I suspect it would help any role player actually.


----------



## Zaruthustran

Piratecat said:
			
		

> It does; knock down the tower, and you set it up with an immediate three pulls per remaining player. It'll start out rickety.
> 
> It's a good sign that I just ran it, and I really want to run it again.




Perfect solution. Man, that sounds so rad. I'm going to add the Jenga mechanic to my Savage Tide campaign. Maybe for ship maneuvers? Or for chase scenes?

What do I need to do in order to convince you to run a game at PAX? 

-z


----------



## Epidiah Ravachol

I'm reluctant to correct Piratecat because of all the wonderful things he's saying about the game, but the number of pulls you make after rebuilding the tower is based on the number of players you've lost so far in the game, and not the number remaining.

It is, however, a very loose rule, and either way will achieve the objective, which is to jump start the tension again. A few folks have also suggested doubling the number of pulls required for actions after the tower is rebuild. I think this sort of happens naturally, because more dangerous situations tend to generate more pulls, and flat out doubling them might be overkill. But if you're using the mechanic in another game to represent something else, that might also be a solution.


----------



## Piratecat

Epidiah Ravachol said:
			
		

> I'm reluctant to correct Piratecat because of all the wonderful things he's saying about the game, but the number of pulls you make after rebuilding the tower is based on the number of players you've lost so far in the game, and not the number remaining.



Err...  oops? Makes sense, of course; I must have misread it!


----------



## Thornir Alekeg

This sounds really cool.  

When mentioning the struggle over the gun, two players were making opposed pulls.  Does the GM make pulls for NPCs to counter the player's action, or is it soley based upon the player at that point?  I would think GM pulls could heighten the tension, but it also might discourage the players from trying things, because they don't want to end up in a Jenga duel.  

Piratecat, how much will it take to get you to scrap your plans and show up at KahunaCon to run this?  I'll open with $10 and the dessert of your choice, and I could probably get others to chip in


----------



## Epidiah Ravachol

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> This sounds really cool.
> 
> When mentioning the struggle over the gun, two players were making opposed pulls.  Does the GM make pulls for NPCs to counter the player's action, or is it soley based upon the player at that point?  I would think GM pulls could heighten the tension, but it also might discourage the players from trying things, because they don't want to end up in a Jenga duel.



Fortunately for all that are involved, the GM should never touch the tower. When I'm running the game, I usually put some serious distance between myself and the tower, because I have the crazy legs.

In fact, I've noticed that most players do, too, because the rules don't care why the tower fell, just who caused it. A player standing up to go to the bathroom and bumping the table could just as easily lose a character as a player making one of those heart-pounding end game pulls. I like to think of it as the _Texas Chainsaw Massacre_ Effect. If you've seen the original, then you remember that horrific moment when Kirk is inside the house looking for help for their engine problems, the door behind him slides open and within a breath Kirk drops, twitches, and is dragged behind the door as it slams shut. And the audience is left with the most unsettling case of WTF in the history of audiences.

That's Kirk's player knocking the tower over while reaching for a bag of Cheetos. There one moment, not even really trying to do anything, and then gone before anyone even has a chance to witness the events.*

The Jenga duel only comes up when the PCs are in conflict with each other and willing to risk the tower for what they are fighting over. It is a special case that runs slightly different than the rest of the game. It is a game of chicken in which each pull does not necessarily have to mean something is happening. Normally, if you pull from the tower, you absolute succeed or get something for each pull. So an action that takes more than one pull has significant steps that you accomplish with each pull. But while the PCs are duking it out, the tower becomes more abstract, and pulls just represent each character's willingness to escalate the conflict and see it through to its inevitable end.


* To be fair, I've probably run Dread games for hundreds of players over the years, taking into account all the cons and store demos, and I've only seen this sort of unfortunate demise twice, and it happened so early in the game for one of them that I used the dead man walking option on him. The game is about the threat of this happening and not so much about tricking the players into killing their own characters off.


----------



## Wraith Form

FunkBGR said:
			
		

> I've had Dread sitting on my shelf, and I just can't seem to find the gamers for it.



^  What he said. ^


----------



## Wraith Form

Epidiah Ravachol said:
			
		

> I've probably run Dread games for hundreds of players over the years, taking into account all the cons and store demos.



How in the bloody, oozing name of dread Cthulhu do you come up with the questionnaire?  That was probably the one thing that turned me off to the game:  I'm not smart enough to create good questions, and {most of} the people playing in my group aren't imaginative to fill out the questionnaire appropriately.

:: cry ::


----------



## Epidiah Ravachol

Wraith Form said:
			
		

> How in the bloody, oozing name of dread Cthulhu do you come up with the questionnaire?  That was probably the one thing that turned me off to the game:  I'm not smart enough to create good questions, and {most of} the people playing in my group aren't imaginative to fill out the questionnaire appropriately.
> 
> :: cry ::



That's actually the hardest part for me, too. So I steal them. I will take some questionnaires from a previous game, go through them, crossing out everything that doesn't make sense for the current game, altering those that can be made to make more sense, and filling in the gaps when I'm done. I forget the exact number, but I think the book has over 200 questions in it to help get things going. Plus, I've collected a few on my blog in the interest of helping other GMs out. And I will shortly be adding Piratecat's questionnaires to that list. And if anyone else has run their own games, I would dearly love to add your questionnaires as well.

Also, I find it much easier if my players suggest the sort of characters they would like to play to me, and I start thinking about questions specific to those.

Last night I was just talking to a friend about this very problem. He said he liked to write a bunch of questions out first that relate to the story, but aren't character specific, and then start to mold characters out of those. He also suggested a sort of web-based questionnaire generator, which I'm now looking into.

But let me be honest with you: you are smart enough, and your players will surprise you. And that's not just a vacuous pep talk. I feel the same anxiety every time, and cringe at many of the questions I've written, but the pay-off is grand and never disappoints. And as Piratecat illustrated in his original post, it is often the innocuous questions that surprise you the most.

Hmm, now you have me thinking. Perhaps I should do some sort of online questionnaire workshop . . .


----------



## Asmor

I've gotta say, this sounds really, really freaking awesome. From a purely game-design standpoint, the jenga mechanic is probably the single most perfect mechanic I've ever seen. Simple, elegant, intuitive, and it actually serves the mood as much, if not more so, than the game.

I really, really want to give this a try some time. Hopefully I can talk my group into trying a one-shot of it.


----------



## Crothian

It does sound like a great game.  I wish I had the time to try to set up a one shot.


----------



## Asmor

Just thinking about this game in the shower, I came up with this idea... Might be a little rail-roady, but it might be interesting.

Have two questionnaires. One is mostly generic stuff that applies to everyone, What's your name, what do you do for a living, why are you on the train from LA to San Francisco, etc. Toss in a question or two that links people together, if appropriate, i.e. How do you know Barry's character? Let them do this one before the game.

Then, prepare a second set of loaded questions, one for each player, which are to be randomly-distributed and filled out in secret right before the game. Some examples:

*Why do you hate dogs so much? Do any of your victims' owners know you killed their precious little pooch? How old were you the first time you drowned a puppy?

*How many times have you been in jail before? Why are you trying to avoid the police this time? What did you hide in your luggage, and how?

*How does your father's suicide when you were a kid affect you as an adult? Describe the scene when you came home early from school that day. Have you forgiven him yet?

*Why do you cut yourself? Do you try to hide your scars? What does your blood taste like?


----------



## Crothian

Having loaded questions is part of the Questionnaire according to the game.  And not everyone should have the same questions now will players know what each others questions are.


----------



## EditorBFG

Wraith Form said:
			
		

> How in the bloody, oozing name of dread Cthulhu do you come up with the questionnaire?  That was probably the one thing that turned me off to the game:  I'm not smart enough to create good questions, and {most of} the people playing in my group aren't imaginative to fill out the questionnaire appropriately.



Well, you really can't fault somebody for coming up with a clever RPG that requires creativity and imagination, can you?

I've been on a "story games" kick lately-- _Agon, Carry, Mortal Coil,_ and the ultrapopular _Dogs in the Vineyard_ have been run at my wonderful FLGS-- and _Dread_ is now on my list of things to try. The guys that work on this stuff are the ones who are really evolving the hobby.

It has really made me wonder how-- or if-- it is possible to apply some of these principles to something like d20. So I'm digging this discussion.


----------



## greuh

I have GMd two games of Dread now, and I have to GM one at the french Gen Con next month. I second everything PirateCat said, it is an really fine game and the system is really excellent.

I had something just like the rifle thing in the "under a metal sky" scenario of the gamebook : a player was the CO of the team, another the casual ET. The CO ordered the ET something, which he didn't want. The tension was really high (because the order meant near death). Players decide their character do the chicken game : the CO orders and pull his gun, menacing an on-the-spot execution. The other, a cat-like humanoid (damn furries fan) pulled out his claws. They both pull and pull, until the CO decided not to. The player of the ET said to me after the game that he had big adrenalin rushes while pulling (as the tower was already in a dangerous state before their conflict).
Excellent game !

Three players sacrificed their character to save the others. Some players moved their character a little out the action when the tower was beginning to threaten to fall, which is also fine.

The "13" scenario found on the website, which I used at the second game is, IMHO, not as good as the ones found in the book : it needs development and some rearrangement of the scenes. I will reuse this scenario at the genconFr, rearranging some elements : the little girl won't be one of the first thing encountered, the catlike thing will be found beforehand, and I'll try to be more subtle. Because my players found out the whole thing at the beginning, and one of my players was too much of a bully.

A problem I've still got with the system is the combat. AFA I've understood the system, players pull for attacks and then pull again for dodges. I think I've been mistaken, and I'm going to change this in pulling for both attack/dodge and more pulls if the PC need to dodge more than one attack. I don't know, I need to reread the book or to have some insight from Epidiah (if you still read this).

excellent game anyway,
greuh.


----------



## Piratecat

Crothian said:
			
		

> Having loaded questions is part of the Questionnaire according to the game.  And not everyone should have the same questions now will players know what each others questions are.



Each of my questionnaires was totally different. The first thing I did was decide in what ways I needed to steer each character. For instance, let's take the middle-aged son. Here's each question I asked, and why I asked it.

*   1.  You are over 40. Why do you still live with your mother? *_ A loaded question. I wanted to establish that other people might see him as a mama's boy, even if he doesn't see himself that way. Just asking this question says a ton about the character. _

*  2. What first triggered your interest in photography? *_ The adventure has a cool payoff for someone taking and developing photographs. I wanted to open this possibility, as well as establish a hobby in the classic British eccentric mode. Like trainspotting, only different. It's up to the player how important this becomes._

*  3. Have you ever experienced true love?*_ The first non-loaded question. This fills out his romantic past, especially considering that he now lives with his mother. _

*   4. Why didn’t you enlist during the Great War?*_ Another non-loaded question. Maybe he's sickly, or a coward, but answering this defines personality. It also does something even more important -- it reminds the player that the game happens just after WW1, and that other PCs may be veterans who resent his non-enlisting._

*   5. What’s your worst habit? * _It never hurts to list weaknesses that the GM can then prey on._

*   6. Why do those people hate you?  * _A totally random question. Is he racist? Classist? This establishes that at least one group of people doesn't like him for some reason. _

*   7. Do you like your relatives? * _This particular scenario is all about family relationships, so knowing whether he likes or hates his family is important. this makes the player consider this issue._

*  8. How do you spend your days?* _character-defining fluff._

*  9. Have you considered hospitalizing your mother?* _This relationship is an important one, since the mother is a PC. This establishes whether he's resentful of her or not._

* 10. Do you believe in spirits?* _The game is a ghost story in part, and his mom believes in spirits. Does he share her interests?_

* 11. What scares you the most?*_ Fodder for the GM._

* 12. What are you looking forward to?*_ Character-defining, once again._

* 13. Is it worth having a go at Camille, your mother’s French maid?* _Another Pc. This establishes Camille's existence, and possibly sets up some tension. It also suggests that the PC may have lust as a secret sin._​So, about half and half on focused vs general questions.


----------



## WayneLigon

It sounds great, but the Jenga tower thing kinda kills it dead for me. It is innovative and I appreciate what it did in your example (and the 'metaphor of the tower' from the rules exerpt). 

I might have to actually play it a few times to appreciate it, but I really, really suck at things like Jenga. I don't like having my own inadequacies translated into inadequacies for my character; it's one of the reasons I play RPGs. It would be kinda like 'OK, to succeed at this task, get up and run around the block in less than x amount of time'.


----------



## Asmor

So, I've been thinking about how the jenga tower could be translated to D&D or other systems... I think the key is to not tie it to a mechanic. Use it for what it's good for: Creating tension and as a "variable timer." For example: Can the heroes defeat the mooks and stop the villain before his nega-cannon is fully charged and destroys Washington DC? Everyone takes a pull on their initiative.

Problem with this is it could easily take 20-30 or more pulls for the tower to fall, excepting accidental knocks of course. This can be mitigated by having some "seed" pulls at the beginning, like you do in Dread if you're playing with fewer than 4 people.

Oh, and thanks for posting the questionnaire, PC. That's very illustrative.


----------



## Vigwyn the Unruly

I think this sounds like an absolute blast!

I'm going to play a game of it with my sons when the eldest returns from school in a few weeks. If it goes as well as I expect, I'll definitely buy the book.

To the game designer: I foresee the biggest weakness being my lack of creativity in coming up with scenarios. I suggest selling a line of scenarios, just like the ones you have for free on your website. I would gladly pay $5 each for these in PDF.


----------



## Piratecat

Vigwyn the Unruly said:
			
		

> I foresee the biggest weakness being my lack of creativity in coming up with scenarios. I suggest selling a line of scenarios, just like the ones you have for free on your website. I would gladly pay $5 each for these in PDF.



Interesting. I'd say that plots are actually easier than D&D. Think about it; no stats are needed.  All you need is some conflict between PCs, a setting, and a baddie.

Example of the top of my head: 

PCs are Frank & Joe Hardy, Chet Morton, Nancy Drew, her friend Bess, and her boyfriend what's-his-name. In the questionnaires you set up some tension with the Hardys being jealous of Nancy (and vice versa), some jealousy of Nancy's boyfriend, and envy from the sidekicks. Then you say that there's a carnival in town, something has been stolen from the town museum, and a tiny smudge of white grease paint will lead the heroes to the carnival.

After that it's totally open for you. Someone local could be pretending to be with the carnival, setting a false lead. But there's a psycho killer with the carnival who gets nervous about the kids snooping around, so he stalks them through the tents. Lots of possibilities there!

Not needing stats plays to my strengths.


----------



## Kafkonia

WayneLigon said:
			
		

> I might have to actually play it a few times to appreciate it, but I really, really suck at things like Jenga. I don't like having my own inadequacies translated into inadequacies for my character; it's one of the reasons I play RPGs. It would be kinda like 'OK, to succeed at this task, get up and run around the block in less than x amount of time'.




I felt the same way, but then I had a brainwave... I don't have to _play_ it, I can _run_ it!  So I may just be sold on this.


----------



## molonel

I'm reading this thread with a great deal of interest, Piratecat. Thank you.


----------



## BryonD

Any chance these products will ever be available as PDFs?


----------



## Epidiah Ravachol

greuh said:
			
		

> A problem I've still got with the system is the combat. AFA I've understood the system, players pull for attacks and then pull again for dodges. I think I've been mistaken, and I'm going to change this in pulling for both attack/dodge and more pulls if the PC need to dodge more than one attack. I don't know, I need to reread the book or to have some insight from Epidiah (if you still read this).




I have some thoughts on combat written out over here, but the long and the short of it is, try not to think of combat in role-playing terms. When there is combat in a horror film it usually falls into one of four categories:

1. The characters are fighting among themselves (which often puts them in great peril).
2. The characters are being overrun by a mob of near mindless monsters, such as zombies or Aliens.
3. The characters are being hunted by one terrifyingly exceptional being.
4. Fighting that is not scary.

The rules for case 1 are clearly spelled out in the book. Case 4 doesn't really belong in a Dread game. Unfortunately, I did not mention cases 2 and 3 in the book.

For case 2 I would treat the monsters more like a force of nature than an army. The characters can certainly pull to shoot some zombie brains, and pull to avoid being eaten if they are in the midst of them. But it is doubtful that such actions are the goals of the players. Usually the combat is just to buy some time as they rush for safety, or try to retrieve some medical supplies from the pharmacy in the overrun mall. In this case, I would make the players pull to hit (which keeps them temporarily at bay) and pull for something defensive if the monsters are upon them. Also, I would give characters whose questionnaires indicated some appropriate training or experience (such as a military background) some sort of circumstantial edge--maybe they don't need to use as much ammo to hit something.

In case 3 the characters are in combat as much as a deer is in combat during hunting season. The link I gave above is mostly about a case 3 situation. Basically, the nemesis should never spend enough time with the characters to engage in round-by-round combat. A swift, gruesome attack that may not kill a character, but will drag out enough pulls to at least convince the players that it might. And then the nemesis disappears into the darkness.

Does that help?


----------



## Epidiah Ravachol

BryonD said:
			
		

> Any chance these products will ever be available as PDFs?




That is in the works, but not in my hands, so I can't give you an accurate prediction on when it will be available. I'll look into it.



			
				Vigwyn the Unruly said:
			
		

> To the game designer: I foresee the biggest weakness being my lack of creativity in coming up with scenarios. I suggest selling a line of scenarios, just like the ones you have for free on your website. I would gladly pay $5 each for these in PDF.



At the moment I have another project in front of me, but that is definitely something to consider.


----------



## BryonD

Epidiah Ravachol said:
			
		

> That is in the works, but not in my hands, so I can't give you an accurate prediction on when it will be available. I'll look into it.



Cool,  I'll keep an eye out for it.
Thanks


----------



## woodelf

Well, Eppy answered most of the questions before i even discovered this thread existed, so i'm just doing a bit of cleanup.



			
				WayneLigon said:
			
		

> It sounds great, but the Jenga tower thing kinda kills it dead for me.[snip] I might have to actually play it a few times to appreciate it, but I really, really suck at things like Jenga. I don't like having my own inadequacies translated into inadequacies for my character; it's one of the reasons I play RPGs. It would be kinda like 'OK, to succeed at this task, get up and run around the block in less than x amount of time'.





			
				Kafkonia said:
			
		

> It sounds fascinating. I could never, ever play it -- I almost had anxiety attacks just trying to thread a needle in home ec back in junior high, and my fine motor control is such that I would never have a chance to succeed more than a couple of pulls into the game. But for the right market, it could be perfect.




In our experience, this is *much* less of an issue than most people think it will be. First of all, plenty of people at convention games over the years have had a perfectly enjoyable time without making a single pull during the entire game. Depending on your character, the scenario, and your personality, it might be more enjoyable to avoid the tower (fine motor skill issues aside). 

Secondly, we've had at least one person who had diagnosed hand tremors, and said after the game that he had a blast--and, yes, he did pull several times, and he didn't think his handicap really affected the game in a negative way (I know Eppy, the GM, was really worried it would). 

Thirdly, and this is probably the most salient point: for the vast majority of people, skill at Jenga and skill at Dread are only very loosely related, at best. That is, having your character on the line changes it immeasurably, so the "Jenga masters" really aren't that much better than the complete beginners, who aren't much better than the klutzes. It sorta levels the field a bit--which, combined with the fact that you can (1) choose not to pull and (2) often choose to avoid situations where pulls are even needed in the first place, seems to minimize the issue. Due to years of playtesting, and then convention running, we've gotten inordinately good at Jenga, yet I can still have a blast playing a game of Dread, and don't feel particularly better at the pulling than the other players. 

To be clear, motor skills disparity certainly could be an issue that would impact the game, but, in our experience, it takes a much greater disparity than people anticipate, before it has a significant impact on the game. People who don't want to get into the right mood are a much bigger problem for the game. So i'd recommend giving it a try before writing it off--there's everything you need to run a game on our website for free download.



			
				Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> I'm tempted to buy Jenga just to be able to play Dread.




Funny story, there: that's exactly what happened to us. That is, the core mechanic that evolved into Dread predated any of us having *ever* played Jenga, much less owning a set. So we had to put off actually trying it out for a week while i tried every store in town until i found one that had Jenga in stock (everybody just happened to be out at the time).

And, putting on my marketer hat, a Jenga set is only ~$12, maybe less, and provides all you need for an entire group to play. You can't even get two sets of dice for that much money, and most people want a separate set of dice for each player in most RPGs.



			
				Tiew said:
			
		

> Sounds extremely cool. Do you think it would be a good system for introducing new role-players to the idea of a role-playing game? I have literary type friends who'd probably get bored a few minutes into me describing the rules of D&D, but who might get into the interactive story thing.





			
				FunkBGR said:
			
		

> I've had Dread sitting on my shelf, and I just can't seem to find the gamers for it. Sounds awesome Piratecat - here's hoping I"ll get my chance someday soon.




As Eppy said, Dread has suckered several people that we know of into RPGs, who had previously rejected them. And, IME, it, if anything, goes *better* for the complete novice than for experienced RPers. So, if your current group won't go for it, maybe don't look for other gamers to play it--round up a bunch of your non-gamer friends for an evening. 

Also, for those of you looking to try the game: we'll be running a whole bunch of sessions at Origins and GenCon this year, as usual, and should have extra GMs with free time to run pick-up games at GenCon, in case of significant overflow. And as much as we love seeing familiar faces at con games, we love seeing new faces even more.



			
				greuh said:
			
		

> The "13" scenario found on the website, which I used at the second game is, IMHO, not as good as the ones found in the book : it needs development and some rearrangement of the scenes. I will reuse this scenario at the genconFr, rearranging some elements : the little girl won't be one of the first thing encountered, the catlike thing will be found beforehand, and I'll try to be more subtle. Because my players found out the whole thing at the beginning, and one of my players was too much of a bully.




Yeah, we've heavily re-structured that the last couple times we've run it at a convention, for many of the exact reasons you've identified. It still uses most of the same pieces as the version posted on the website, but has been, as you say, rearranged and restructured.



			
				BryonD said:
			
		

> Any chance these products will ever be available as PDFs?




Yes. RSN(tm). I'm re-doing the layout to be home-printer-friendly, while still capturing essentially the same style as the printed version. Which means completely redoing the layout pretty much from scratch, due to how it is built. And i've just not gotten around to finishing it up. As soon as i do, it'll be up on RPGNow, or somesuch. Maybe this month? And, we've tossed the idea of PDF scenarios for a few bucks back and forth a number of times, and mostly just haven't gotten around to figuring out exactly how we'd want to do it, and then doing it.



			
				GreatLemur said:
			
		

> I bet there are multi-colored Jenga set out there you could use to build color-coded towers...




Yep. There's Truth or Dare Jenga, which is, IIRC, 3 colors; Jenga Extreme, which is 3 colors, 2 finishes, and parallelogram-cross-section blocks; there's UNO Stacko, which is a 4-color knock-off; and there are any number of multi-colored knock-offs. One thing about the knock-offs: most of them don't stack quite the same: the length is greater than 3x the width, so the layers stack with gaps. No real impact on play, but it does make re-setting the tower a bit more fiddly, and thus time-consuming.


----------



## Cerebral Paladin

Re: people who like the concept, but fear the skill effects of Jenga:

I wonder if this could be solved by using a random draw mechanic.  What I'm thinking is you have an opaque bag, white marbles or disks or tokens or whatever, and black marbles.  The bag starts off with, say, 50 white marbles in it.  When you "pull", you draw a marble.  White is equivalent to a successful pull, black = tower falling.  You always replace a white marble drawn with a black one.  So you get the same basic pattern, of a safe or almost safe zone at the beginning, meaningful danger in the middle, building up to almost sure doom at the end.  (Of course, after a black marble is drawn you need to reset the bag.)

My guess is that this would produce much the same effect as the Jenga tower, with a reduction in the vividness of the risk and the task (and the total loss of the focusing "don't touch the table lest the tower fall" aspect), in exchange for making it entirely luck based.

Thoughts?

(I should note that I have yet to play Dread and haven't gotten my copy yet.  This is based just on this thread and other online comments.)


----------



## Jim Hague

> That's Kirk's player knocking the tower over while reaching for a bag of Cheetos.




And this right here perfectly expresses why I _don't_ like Dread.  Despite the brilliant writing, despite the amazing mechanic of the questionaires, despite the tension it builds, that right up there kills it for me, stone cold.  The idea that a _player's_ actions, even something as random as bumping the table, causes them to waste the work they put into their character, wastes the time the GM took to prep the questionaire, and could very well bring the plot to a screeching halt just doesn't sit well with me.

I understand the desire to ramp up the tension.  I ran a horror-conspiracy game for 12 years, and was constantly looking for ways to up the stakes.  Player investiture in the characters and the world is a huge part of that.  And that's where the blocks yank me out of it, pardon the pun - your work on a character doesn't mean jack, because you could bump the table, and you're out, removing you from the session.  That's anti-immersion for me.

I'd be _very_ interested in seeing some sort of alternate resolution mechanic for this that keeps the stakes, keeps the investitutre that rises from the questionaires, but loses the (IMO) far too random element.


----------



## Festivus

But with Jenga/Dread you have a little bit of choice as to how much risk you are willing to take.  It might be safer to pull from the right side of the tower than the left.

With the black bag proposal, it's just flat out riskier and I would suspect more would back out of even trying to pull once it became too odds unfavored.


----------



## Cerebral Paladin

It's been a long time since I've played Jenga, and I've never played Dread.  But I don't recall ever facing a choice of how difficult a pull to take in a Jenga game.  Sure, there are easier and harder pulls, but usually you identify what you think is the easiest pull and then take it, right?  There's skill involved in figuring out which pull will be easiest, but that just gets back to "Jenga introduces player skill (unrelated to character choices) into the resolution mechanic."

One of the interesting things about either mechanic is that most of the time you won't get to the point where the odds are heavily stacked against you.  Once the tower (or bag) gets to a point where the odds of death are, say, 1 in 4, a relatively small number of pulls makes a death very likely.  At 1 in 4, the cumulative risks of death are 1/4, 7/16, 37/64, 175/256, 784/1024, if I've done the math right.  So 5 pulls at 1 in 4 odds of death kills somebody better than 3/4ths of the time.  (Obviously, by the time you get up to a 50/50 chance of death, the cumulative odds of death become very steep (1/2, 3/4, 7/8, 15/16, etc.).)  So what that means is that most deaths are going to happen not when they are almost inevitable, but when there is a substantial but much less than half chance on each pull.  That means that, either way, you spend most of the game at the sweet spot where pulling is significantly risky, but you'll probably live.

Perhaps 50 marbles isn't the right number; after all, I pulled that out of the air.  But my guess is that with a little judicious twiddling you could get an effect that is fairly similar to the Dread mechanic but is independent of skill at Jenga.  Personally, I'm all for trying Dread using the Jenga mechanic, but I'm not convinced that the basic insight of the mechanic can't be retained while addressing the concerns of people like Jim Hague, WayneLigon, and Kafkonia.


----------



## Mercule

Sounds like a fascinating game.  I'll definitely be getting it for a one-shot.

Which brings me to my question:  This sounds like a one-shot game, maybe multiple one-shots, but still not an ongoing thing.  How well does Dread lend itself to a campaign?


----------



## BryonD

Jim Hague said:
			
		

> I understand the desire to ramp up the tension.  I ran a horror-conspiracy game for 12 years, and was constantly looking for ways to up the stakes.



I think you are missing the point if you are comparing a 12 year game to a system intended for one shots.
I'm not insterested in new RPGs right now.
But this strikes me as an excellent merger between an RPG and a party game.  I'll certainly be picking it up.
The more unexpected the death the more I think it would be remembered five years later.
It isn't a bug, it is a MAJOR feature!!!!!
But you need to look at it differently than you would a campaign.


----------



## Rodrigo Istalindir

Mercule said:
			
		

> Sounds like a fascinating game.  I'll definitely be getting it for a one-shot.
> 
> Which brings me to my question:  This sounds like a one-shot game, maybe multiple one-shots, but still not an ongoing thing.  How well does Dread lend itself to a campaign?




You might be able to do something episodic -- a Night Stalker type thing, maybe, or X-Files-ish.  Failure wouldn't necessarily mean death, maybe just knocked out for the session, with a chance for something more permanent depending on circumstance.


----------



## Jim Hague

BryonD said:
			
		

> I think you are missing the point if you are comparing a 12 year game to a system intended for one shots.
> I'm not insterested in new RPGs right now.
> But this strikes me as an excellent merger between an RPG and a party game.  I'll certainly be picking it up.
> The more unexpected the death the more I think it would be remembered five years later.
> It isn't a bug, it is a MAJOR feature!!!!!
> But you need to look at it differently than you would a campaign.




Sure, but the basic principles remain the same - investiture, immersion and ramping up the stakes.  I _want_ to like Dread, but the resolution mechanic would, pardon the pun, leave _me_ in fear for my life from my players.  Plus, I wouldn't want someone getting knocked out of a 4-6 hour game, one shot or no, because they bumped the table; that's no fun at all.

So the question remains - what other resolution mechanics could be used and maintain the principle of the game?


----------



## BryonD

Jim Hague said:
			
		

> Sure, but the basic principles remain the same - investiture, immersion and ramping up the stakes.  I _want_ to like Dread, but the resolution mechanic would, pardon the pun, leave _me_ in fear for my life from my players.  Plus, I wouldn't want someone getting knocked out of a 4-6 hour game, one shot or no, because they bumped the table; that's no fun at all.
> 
> So the question remains - what other resolution mechanics could be used and maintain the principle of the game?



I dunno.  To me that is like saying I want to like soccer but hate kicking the ball.
If you don't like it then you don't like it.   That's fine.


There are ways discussed for keeping player involved even if the character is "dead".  But still, it just sounds like it isn't for you.


----------



## Jim Hague

BryonD said:
			
		

> I dunno.  To me that is like saying I want to like soccer but hate kicking the ball.
> If you don't like it then you don't like it.   That's fine.
> 
> 
> There are ways discussed for keeping player involved even if the character is "dead".  But still, it just sounds like it isn't for you.




Thing is, I've read through Dread.  I want to like it.  Could you expand on how to keep the player involved if they're out of the game?  I'm not being snarky here; I'm genuinely interested in hearing how that works, because I'm obviously missing something in the book.


----------



## Wraith Form

Vigwyn the Unruly said:
			
		

> I suggest selling a line of scenarios, just like the ones you have for free on your website. I would gladly pay $5 each for these in PDF.



Totally agreeing on that one.

Heck, you could charge $5 for a small handful of questionnaires, too, and I'd snag that.


----------



## Wraith Form

Jim Hague said:
			
		

> Thing is, I've read through Dread.  I want to like it.  Could you expand on how to keep the player involved if they're out of the game?  I'm not being snarky here; I'm genuinely interested in hearing how that works, because I'm obviously missing something in the book.



I'm thinking you don't.  That's why it's so nerve-wracking _both in and out of character_ when you yank (sorry, 'draw') a jenga block.  The player is basically done, unless the referee wants to have the player run NPCs.


----------



## Crothian

Jim Hague said:
			
		

> Thing is, I've read through Dread.  I want to like it.  Could you expand on how to keep the player involved if they're out of the game?  I'm not being snarky here; I'm genuinely interested in hearing how that works, because I'm obviously missing something in the book.




The easiest way is to have a new character show up the player runs.  One could also have the PC have a horrible death but have him show up two scenes later with everyone wondering how it is so.


----------



## Desdichado

BryonD said:
			
		

> But this strikes me as an excellent merger between an RPG and a party game.  I'll certainly be picking it up.



I agree--as soon as I heard PirateCat's summary of this game on the Circvs, I had visions in my head of running for a group of people I know who would *never* be interested in an RPG, but with whom we'd done tons of "Murder Mystery" type games and had tons of fun.  I think that crossover appeal you mention--the kind of "party game" hybrid nature of it, is one of it's strongest appeals.  I can totally see doing this for our annual Halloween party with total nongamers and having a blast.


----------



## woodelf

Mercule said:
			
		

> Which brings me to my question:  This sounds like a one-shot game, maybe multiple one-shots, but still not an ongoing thing.  How well does Dread lend itself to a campaign?




It depends on what style of campaign you want. With no significant alterations, it will be high-lethality. So you'll never get a game with a feel like _Supernatural_, _X-Files_, _Kolchak: The Night Stalker_, or _Friday the 13th_ (the TV series), because you can't count on the main characters being around from session to session. Then again, that's a large part of why _Supernatural_, in particular, has failed to be good horror, for me (and i never really considered _X-Files_ to be horror, either).

However, high-lethality doesn't necessarily mean "everybody's gonna die every session" or anything to that extreme. Typically, at a convention game (i.e., 4hrs, including filling out the questionnaires), we get 0-1 deaths, unless somebody decides to sacrifice themselves. I can't prove this, but i suspect the rate of heroic sacrifice is inflate at convention games, 'cause the coolness factor is still there, but there isn't the downside of losing character investment in an ongoing game, since it's just a one-shot. And the group, especially the host, has a lot of power to adjust the overall pacing and thus number of pulls, so, with a little practice, it's likely that typical-length sessions (4-8hrs) would still be in the 0-2 deaths per session range--with 0 actually a fairly likely possibility for a 4 or 5 hour game. Nonetheless, you'd need to have some structure to stitch the campaign together *other* than main character continuity. A setup like Chill's SAVE would, of course, be perfect: operative dies, the head office sends you a replacement next week. 

Then we get into the realm of rules modifications. As others pointed out, you could allow non-permanent removals to be reversable: someone who goes insane could be cured; you chickened out last week, but after you thought about the consequences to your grandmother if you don't continue, you've steeled yourself to return; she miraculously survived the implosion of the sub and made it to an escape pod; given a high-magic game, even resurrection could be possible. 

If you do this, probably the best way is to incorporate it into the additional questions that provide character development. Causing the tower to fall should still be it for the rest of the session, and should be a character-transforming event. It could generate a significant new weakness, or eliminate an old one; at an extreme, becoming a new being (a channelled spirit, say) would be appropriate.

_Dread_ *is* designed for campaign play, as written, and both we and others have done it. But that's probably the biggest failing of the rulebook--we apparently don't get that across very well, because a lot of people conclude that it's only designed for one-shots, and would require modification for long-term play. Really, it's only going to require modification if you want to keep characters around longer. And, even then, it could be very minor modification--just allowing in-game-world-reversible removals to be reversible over time. If you're OK with the high character turnover, no changes whatsoever need to be made. And, even then, that could still likely mean that you get to play a given character for 3-6 sessions, on average (depending on the size of the group, the nature of the scenarios, how the group plays, etc.), not just 1. That's why there's discussion of additional questions after/between scenarios. 

In fact, one of the games i'm tryin to push for my group's next campaign would be a dark fantasy game, in the mold of Conan and other warriors-against-evil-magic stories, run with _Dread_.


----------



## GQuail

Jim Hague said:
			
		

> Thing is, I've read through Dread.  I want to like it.  Could you expand on how to keep the player involved if they're out of the game?  I'm not being snarky here; I'm genuinely interested in hearing how that works, because I'm obviously missing something in the book.




This was a question my girlfriend asked when, after this thread, I explained the game concept to her.

I think the answer is, as previously stated, "you don't": just like Cthulhu and other horror games with purposefully high mortality rates, you go into the game with the knowledge that it'll happen and played plan accordingly. Being a one-shot-oriented game, from what I've read, that's not a critical problem as most players can deal with being sidelined in a circumstance like that: but in a long-term campaign where a string of bad pulls knocks you out in the first hour every week for a month, it would be untenable, yes.

I suppose one alternative is to insert some sort of Fate Point mechanism so all players can dodge death once: and then, when you rebuild the tower after a fall, you count spent Fate Points as players crashed out when it comes to redrawing.  So you can keep them alive in the short term longer, but as they go further in whoever knocks it over can easilly take the whole party with him in a hellball of doom.


----------



## BryonD

Hobo said:
			
		

> I had visions in my head of running for a group of people I know who would *never* be interested in an RPG, but with whom we'd done tons of "Murder Mystery" type games and had tons of fun.



Exactly.  My brother (former D&Der, but hasn't been interested in years) and his SO (never gamed in her life that I know of) both immediately expressed interest in coming over to play when I described this to them.


----------



## BryonD

woodelf said:
			
		

> _Dread_ *is* designed for campaign play, as written, and both we and others have done it. But that's probably the biggest failing of the rulebook--we apparently don't get that across very well, because a lot of people conclude that it's only designed for one-shots, and would require modification for long-term play. Really, it's only going to require modification if you want to keep characters around longer. And, even then, it could be very minor modification--just allowing in-game-world-reversible removals to be reversible over time. If you're OK with the high character turnover, no changes whatsoever need to be made. And, even then, that could still likely mean that you get to play a given character for 3-6 sessions, on average (depending on the size of the group, the nature of the scenarios, how the group plays, etc.), not just 1. That's why there's discussion of additional questions after/between scenarios.



huh.
I hadn't really thought about it that way.  So the campaign would be more serial with rotating characters coming from some common source, or completely unrelated characters facing different threats from a common meta-threat, or whatever other creative connecting string the GM can create.  

I'd like to see that.  Though for me I think I'll stick to more standard models for campaigns.  
You'll still get my cash and I'll still have fun.  So we still both win.


----------



## Piratecat

Wraith Form said:
			
		

> I'm thinking you don't.  That's why it's so nerve-wracking _both in and out of character_ when you yank (sorry, 'draw') a jenga block.  The player is basically done, unless the referee wants to have the player run NPCs.



This is really powerful. I hate the "lonely player" syndrome as well, but knowing that they would be out kept the group REALLY focused.

That being said, the best way to hedge it is to turn that character into "the guy everyone knows is gonna get killed." They become the Mean Janitor In The Basement, or the Girl With No Bra; the characters who you know are going to die, but you're just not sure when. This allows them to still play, but they don't catch any lucky breaks. they won't see the clue, they will be the one to get blamed when something happens, and they KNOW that sooner or later they have an appointment with death. Wondering when it's going to occur is equally nerve-wracking.

In game terms, this is referred to as "Dead Man Walking." The character is no longer allowed to make any pulls for any reason. Thus, he can't successfully do anything beyond his own capabilities, and he won't be able to avoid trouble easily. Sooner or later, when the story demands it, he'll go down screaming.

This seems to work really well for me. It keeps things stressed, doesn't invalidate the importance of the tower, gives the GM an easy target when they do want to ace someone for story purposes, and best of all keeps the player playing! But the penalty of not being able to pull is a huge deterrent, and so doesn't make this an enviable condition.


----------



## diaglo

i have to say there is a reason this was nominated for an ENnie last year.

it totally rocks.

but it suffered from a small print run.


----------



## Jim Hague

Piratecat said:
			
		

> This is really powerful. I hate the "lonely player" syndrome as well, but knowing that they would be out kept the group REALLY focused.
> 
> That being said, the best way to hedge it is to turn that character into "the guy everyone knows is gonna get killed." They become the Mean Janitor In The Basement, or the Girl With No Bra; the characters who you know are going to die, but you're just not sure when. This allows them to still play, but they don't catch any lucky breaks. they won't see the clue, they will be the one to get blamed when something happens, and they KNOW that sooner or later they have an appointment with death. Wondering when it's going to occur is equally nerve-wracking.
> 
> In game terms, this is referred to as "Dead Man Walking." The character is no longer allowed to make any pulls for any reason. Thus, he can't successfully do anything beyond his own capabilities, and he won't be able to avoid trouble easily. Sooner or later, when the story demands it, he'll go down screaming.
> 
> This seems to work really well for me. It keeps things stressed, doesn't invalidate the importance of the tower, gives the GM an easy target when they do want to ace someone for story purposes, and best of all keeps the player playing! But the penalty of not being able to pull is a huge deterrent, and so doesn't make this an enviable condition.





_Thank you_.  That's exactly what has me worried - the lonely player.  Not only is someone like that bored, but they would, IME, tend to draw focus from the game...which leads to big, big mistakes and other people knocking over the tower for reasons other than the character failing; a vicious cycle that could be extremely not fun.  And fun, above all else, is my big concern when I run a game.

I'm still a bit on the fence, though - the argument that someone is just 'out' _a la_ CoC doesn't hold water for me, since Dread has a completely different (and more immersive) character generation process.  A CoC classic character takes maybe 5 minutes to create; a good Dread questionaire takes about half an hour to fill out, assuming the GM had time to prep spares.  The 'Dead Man Walking' idea has me intrigued, though...


----------



## Epidiah Ravachol

diaglo said:
			
		

> but it suffered from a small print run.



Hopefully we have solved that problem. It'll probably never have a big print run, but with a little luck, it should always be in print and available (online, at least).

Concerning playing _Dread_ campaign-style, I had about a yearlong run of it back in the early days. It was your typical post-zombie-apocalypse situation and after 30 some games, I think we had a dozen deaths or so. The mortality rate was certainly higher than the Midnight game I was playing concurrently, but not as brutal as you would suspect.

It is all about the threat of losing a character. This doesn't have to happen every session, it just has to come close to happening. And the trick is, a mile off is still close enough as far as the players are concerned.

To ensure a tad bit more longevity in the characters in my game, I let my players use the Beyond the Night rules to the fullest extent. Essentially, I let them get away with quite a bit when answering the three questions:

*What did you learn last time?*
_I learned the secret to a head shot is a steady hand._
*What long-term harm did you still have from last time?*
_Some cracked ribs, but they are healing nicely._
*What have you done since last time?*
_We uncovered a some militia's stash of military-grade weaponry._

This player has obviously used the questions to indicate that his player is much better at shooting, is no longer all that bothered by his injuries, and has armed himself to the teeth. As a host, I might balk at that third one, but not always, perhaps not if several of the players agree to answer their third question the same way. Besides, pulling to toss a grenade into a mass of oncoming zombies is still pulling.

The host has a lot of leniency here and can work with his or her players to make sure everyone is reasonably ready for what lies ahead. Of course, no one is every really ready...


----------



## Byrons_Ghost

Regarding the Dead Man Walking scenario, is this done for all deaths or only those who die early or accidentally? If the latter, I was thinking that part of the scenario could be that the clumsy player doesn't die yet, but instead will be in play waiting to take the hit for the next person who legitimately, in a challenge, knocks over the tower. Once that happens, the saved person becomes the next Dead Man, and so forth.

Really, in horror movies, we always seem to know who's going to get it anyway. And the survivors often do seem to survive simply because they're off scene for a while, and playing it safe. Sure, people like Kolchack constantly dived into dangerous situations, but then Carl also ran away an awful lot.   

Another possibility for recycling characters is based on setting campaign. Delta Green, for example, began as an attempt to get a framework for CoC to explain why all these people kept dropping out of their normal lives, investigating the Mythos, and dying nasty deaths. Sure, it still gets sort of improbable after the third or fourth replacement shows up in a session, but from what I'm reading about the Jenga mechanic it doesn't sound like there'd be more deaths than that.

The other possibility, best for a one-shot, is to just have people coming in and getting killed with little regard for anything except the body count. This works best in settings like summer camps, island retreats, isolated mansions owned by Vincent Price, etc. Here, the main characters are the ones that actually survive the story, and everyone else turns out to have just been an extra (or, in the case of some players, several extras).

Oh, about the marble or other alt mechanics: A google result for "Jenga Probabilities" got me the page below. The numbers make no sense to me, but I thought someone might find it useful:

http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~icecube/maths/a-jenga-probability-distribution/


----------



## Hypersmurf

You know, talk of the 'Mean Janitor in the Basement' makes me want to try a high-lethality Scooby-Doo game.

What happens when the Headless Horseman _isn't_ Old Man Withers?  Mystery Inc. die, that's what...

-Hyp.


----------



## Kafkonia

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> You know, talk of the 'Mean Janitor in the Basement' makes me want to try a high-lethality Scooby-Doo game.
> 
> What happens when the Headless Horseman _isn't_ Old Man Withers?  Mystery Inc. die, that's what...
> 
> -Hyp.




Didn't somebody here run a Scooby and the Gang Call of Cthulhu game?

The more I read about Dread the more inclined I am to buy it....


----------



## Epidiah Ravachol

Byrons_Ghost said:
			
		

> Regarding the Dead Man Walking scenario, is this done for all deaths or only those who die early or accidentally? If the latter, I was thinking that part of the scenario could be that the clumsy player doesn't die yet, but instead will be in play waiting to take the hit for the next person who legitimately, in a challenge, knocks over the tower. Once that happens, the saved person becomes the next Dead Man, and so forth.
> 
> Really, in horror movies, we always seem to know who's going to get it anyway. And the survivors often do seem to survive simply because they're off scene for a while, and playing it safe. Sure, people like Kolchack constantly dived into dangerous situations, but then Carl also ran away an awful lot.



I rather like that.

You honestly will not be encountering a Dead Man Walking scenario that often, but when it does, this might add a rather interesting twist. Since the Dead Man's player can't interact with the tower anymore, it should also set up an interesting dynamic in the group.

Just make sure that the sacrifice rules work as they always did. If someone deliberately knocked over the tower to do something heroic, it should be their character that pays the price and gets the glory, not the Dead Man.


----------



## Rodrigo Istalindir

Kafkonia said:
			
		

> Didn't somebody here run a Scooby and the Gang Call of Cthulhu game?
> 
> The more I read about Dread the more inclined I am to buy it....




Piratecat ran a Gilligan's Island CoC game at GenCon last year.  It was wonderful.


----------



## Nareau

Epidiah Ravachol said:
			
		

> I'm reluctant to correct Piratecat because of all the wonderful things he's saying about the game, but the number of pulls you make after rebuilding the tower is based on the number of players you've lost so far in the game, and not the number remaining.
> 
> It is, however, a very loose rule, and either way will achieve the objective, which is to jump start the tension again. A few folks have also suggested doubling the number of pulls required for actions after the tower is rebuild. I think this sort of happens naturally, because more dangerous situations tend to generate more pulls, and flat out doubling them might be overkill. But if you're using the mechanic in another game to represent something else, that might also be a solution.




Pielorinho and I ran a game this past weekend, and it was a blast.  We converted an old horror LARP we ran back in the early 90's.

We had 2 PC deaths in the last half hour of the game.  It turned into a total bloodbath after the first PC bit it, as the rest of the PCs decided their survival was worth killing for.  I think they offed 4 or 5 NPCs.

Things you might want to know when running Dread:
1)  People are a lot more willing to resort to violence after the first guy dies (and the tower is easy to pull from)
2)  If you play with smokers, play someplace where they can smoke without leaving the game.  Dread will make them want cigarette badly.
3)  Figure out how to make people pull early.  In our game, the setup didn't really require any pulls before the first murder happened, about an hour and a half into the game.

In the future, I think I'm going to houserule that every player must pull 3 times every time the tower falls.  I think this will help the endgame tension stay high.

For the designers:
How do you handle "social pulls"?  Would you make a player pull in order to convince the mental patient to put down the baseball bat?  Or do you recommend just roleplaying it out?

In the numerous games you've run, have you noticed the tower falling after a certain time or number of pulls?  It seems like a 4 hour game would most often see 30 pulls and 1 death (happening around pull #25).

My favorite scene from our game this weekend:
The cop manages to unlock a door to the abandoned wing of the asylum.  His gun drawn, maglite at the ready, he swings the door open--only to see one of the psychiatrists standing there, holding a scalpel, covered in blood.  He swings the gun up to point at the doctor's head, shouting, "DROP THE WEAPON!"  Without missing a beat, the doctor calmly responds, "Can I help you?"

Nareau


----------



## Epidiah Ravachol

Nareau said:
			
		

> Pielorinho and I ran a game this past weekend, and it was a blast.  We converted an old horror LARP we ran back in the early 90's.
> 
> We had 2 PC deaths in the last half hour of the game.  It turned into a total bloodbath after the first PC bit it, as the rest of the PCs decided their survival was worth killing for.  I think they offed 4 or 5 NPCs.
> 
> Things you might want to know when running Dread:
> 1)  People are a lot more willing to resort to violence after the first guy dies (and the tower is easy to pull from)
> 2)  If you play with smokers, play someplace where they can smoke without leaving the game.  Dread will make them want cigarette badly.
> 3)  Figure out how to make people pull early.  In our game, the setup didn't really require any pulls before the first murder happened, about an hour and a half into the game.



Excellent advice. 

I like to season the early part of my game with a lot of inconsequential things the players can pull for. The questionnaire can often set some of these up. Got a character who is punctual: traffic is bad, you'll probably have to pull to get to the cabin before sunset. Got a character who is skittish: you hear a scream, pull to keep from spilling coffee all over yourself. Got a ladies' man: she's looking fine, pull to get her attention, jerk.

None of those are important, but as early pulls they are really unlikely to cause a collapse. The just get the blood flowing a bit.



> In the future, I think I'm going to houserule that every player must pull 3 times every time the tower falls.  I think this will help the endgame tension stay high.




The natural pacing of most horror movies is such that once one character dies, there is usually a bit of a breather before things get tense again. That isn't always the case, and the breather never lets the tension all the way out. I've found that Dread works well in that sort of circumstance. Once the tower has fallen, it is time to restructure the scene so that the players get a chance to makes some pulls, like arguing over what to do next or keeping an extra attentive eye out for the stalking menace.

That said, active pre-pulls are a great way to keep things on pace.



> For the designers:
> How do you handle "social pulls"?  Would you make a player pull in order to convince the mental patient to put down the baseball bat?  Or do you recommend just roleplaying it out?



Definitely pull, at least one. Perhaps more, depending on the circumstances, the character's ability and experiences, and what kind of case the player makes. 

Go ahead and role-play it, and if the role-playing is particularly convincing, you can reduce the number of pulls if you like. 



> In the numerous games you've run, have you noticed the tower falling after a certain time or number of pulls?  It seems like a 4 hour game would most often see 30 pulls and 1 death (happening around pull #25).



We've noticed that around 45 is when things start to get ridiculous. Obviously it is impossible to predict exactly when the tower will fall. If it were possible, it would be a little boring. But we recommend planning to make a pull about ever five minutes for a four hour game.

That's an average of a pull every five minutes. In general, when some goes to pull, they are going to be making several at once. So it's okay to go a half hour without a pull and then yank six. Just make sure everything feels on pace.

You certainly can pull more than that, but if you are pulling less, the tension might not be there.



> My favorite scene from our game this weekend:
> The cop manages to unlock a door to the abandoned wing of the asylum.  His gun drawn, maglite at the ready, he swings the door open--only to see one of the psychiatrists standing there, holding a scalpel, covered in blood.  He swings the gun up to point at the doctor's head, shouting, "DROP THE WEAPON!"  Without missing a beat, the doctor calmly responds, "Can I help you?"
> 
> Nareau



That's a thing of beauty.


----------



## Piratecat

Eppy, you coming to GenCon? I'm running Dread a few times there for EN Worlders. If the timing and desire work out for you, you get a guaranteed space at one of the tables. (If not, no worries - you may have played the game to death by that point in the weekend - but I want to make the offer! Let me know in a few months, when we set up the game schedules.)


----------



## Epidiah Ravachol

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Eppy, you coming to GenCon? I'm running Dread a few times there for EN Worlders. If the timing and desire work out for you, you get a guaranteed space at one of the tables. (If not, no worries - you may have played the game to death by that point in the weekend - but I want to make the offer! Let me know in a few months, when we set up the game schedules.)



A gamer friend of mine was fool enough to schedule his wedding that weekend, so unfortunately I will not be able to attend. But if I could, I would. I rarely get a chance to set aside the hosting duties and just play in a game. Woodelf and the rest of the crew should be there, though.


----------



## Riggs

This really does sound like a very interesting game.  I'm not into horror games, movies, or much else in the genre, but I'd play this immediately.  
I'm not sure how I'd like it episodically/campaign-wise, but for one-offs I would be all for it.  I heard from a lot of NCGameDayers that PC's game was an event of awesome gaming.  

PC: Did you run that game based on Dread suggestions or because that is how you run games?  I am referring to moving about the table, whispering to players, etc.  I have heard you did a great job, but I am pinning down whether that had anything to do with Dread or just all you?


thanks


----------



## Korgoth

This sounds pretty fun, actually.  I do have a question (based on reading the sample rules pdf): There is an example about a player refusing a pull... he auto-fails but he cannot die by refusing to pull.

How hard and fast is that rule that a character can't die by refusing a pull?  Because it seems like an obstinate player could just decide to stop pulling.  In the example, the character needs to jump from one beam to another in a burning barn.  If he pulls and fails, he dies.  If he pulls and succeeds, he makes the jump.  But if he refuses to pull, he, for example, falls and breaks a bone, and is now lying on the floor of the burning barn.  OK - but what if he continues to refuse to pull?  Can he therefore never die because he's not making pulls?

My inclination would be to say that eventually the "host" can just rule that this is a "do-or-die pull" (or whatever you want to call it) and there's no fence-sitting allowed.  Or would that not work for some reason?


----------



## woodelf

Nareau said:
			
		

> Pielorinho and I ran a game this past weekend, and it was a blast.  We converted an old horror LARP we ran back in the early 90's.
> 
> We had 2 PC deaths in the last half hour of the game.  It turned into a total bloodbath after the first PC bit it, as the rest of the PCs decided their survival was worth killing for.  I think they offed 4 or 5 NPCs.
> 
> Things you might want to know when running Dread:
> 1)  People are a lot more willing to resort to violence after the first guy dies (and the tower is easy to pull from)
> 2)  If you play with smokers, play someplace where they can smoke without leaving the game.  Dread will make them want cigarette badly.
> 3)  Figure out how to make people pull early.  In our game, the setup didn't really require any pulls before the first murder happened, about an hour and a half into the game.
> 
> In the future, I think I'm going to houserule that every player must pull 3 times every time the tower falls.  I think this will help the endgame tension stay high.
> 
> For the designers:
> How do you handle "social pulls"?  Would you make a player pull in order to convince the mental patient to put down the baseball bat?  Or do you recommend just roleplaying it out?
> 
> In the numerous games you've run, have you noticed the tower falling after a certain time or number of pulls?  It seems like a 4 hour game would most often see 30 pulls and 1 death (happening around pull #25).




The relevant info actually did make it into the book, just not anywhere super-obvious: it's in the [brief] appendix on alternatives to Jenga. Anyway, in our experience, the tower is generally good for 35-55 pulls before it falls. With beginning groups (and, thus, most convention games), it'll be near the bottom of that range. I've sometimes counted either how many pulls when it fell, or how many had been made at the end of the game (if the tower was still standing), and it's usually around 35 at con games. But when just the 4 of us that designed it (and have thus played it tons) play--especially if Eppy is the host [he has the poorest motor skills--no offense, Eppy]--getting 50+ pulls has become the norm, though far from guaranteed.

But, here's the secret: even knowing this, it becomes nerve-wracking for me around 25 pulls. Because, even while i know that i can generally make another pull from a tower that's "about this rickety", i never know for sure, and if i'm wrong, or i screw up, i'm out of the game.

And, depending on the group, that point can come much earlier. I've run games for groups that were getting seriously afraid of the tower as little as a dozen or 15 pulls into the game. In some cases, due to injudicious pulls earlier, they were right to be nervous. But, in plenty of other cases, my experienced eye could tell that they likely were in no real danger of toppling the tower for another dozen. But play with that tension! It still needs to feel to the players like they're taking risks, whether or not they are, every time they pull. To that end, making a bigger deal out of wobbles and bumps than is actually warranted is also par for the course when i'm hosting. Maybe. Then again, maybe i'm giving a very realistic assessment of the tower.   And, of course, no matter how good you are, no pull is *ever* a "sure thing". I've certainly been overly-cocky and taken the tower down on what i thought was an 'easy' pull on more than one occasion. 

So, you get a wide range at which the tower will "likely" fall (~35-~55), but with no hard boundary on either end of that range (IIRC, the theoretical absolute limit of pulls is something like 101, and the probabilities someone posted a link to predict a more-realistic ceiling of 67), combined with an even wider range of when it "might" fall (while theoretically at any point, it generally is neither in any real danger of falling except through clutziness, nor is the group particularly worried about it falling, at less than about 20 pulls), all emphasized by the simple knowledge on the part of the players that, no matter how easy a pull is now, it's still getting them a step closer to that pull they can't successfully make. 

Or, to answer a question we get sometimes, to the point where there are no pulls left to make, no matter how deft or dextrous you might be--i came within 2 pulls of that point once in a game. It doesn't matter why you don't pull, and that's a feature, not a bug--no free passes, just because you've used up the tower. It just means you know for certain that the next time you try something that requires a pull, you're failing or dying--take your pick. As opposed to the near-certainty that a very rickety tower can provide.


----------



## Tortoise

I ordered Dread based on the early posts in the thread (should receive it soon). I am looking very forward to running this for some players I know will be able to invest in the characters including at least one (as yet) non-gamer.

All I can say is that Pirate Cat is a bad influence where my game buying is concerned.


----------



## s.j. bagley

sounds quite interesting.
maybe i'll pick this one up, soon.


----------



## Pielorinho

An awesome game!

Folks talked about this earlier a little bit:  when someone dies in a horror movie, the tension seems to ramp down.  The one problem we had in our game (me and *Nareau*) was that the first death happened in a high-tension scene, in which the PCs were facing off against a group of, for lack of a better word, villains.  They were really nervous, because the tower was rickety, and when one of them failed to take down a bad guy, it upped the tension.

But then the players realized that the tower was rebuilt, and suddenly that upped tension seemed to drop:  they realized that they had a good several pulls to make before they were in danger.   And they went all-offensive.

To be sure, that worked against them:  the next death happened because a player got cocky, and we had a quick second collapse.  But after that one, the remaining players were quick and methodical, and the game moved into a bloodbath scenario, with the PCs taking out the villains.

In some ways, that bloodbath was pretty fun.  I don't know that it mirrored proper horror movie format, though.

I mention this not so much as a flaw in the game as for advice for folks running it.  And I'm not really sure what form the advice should take.  Maybe be prepared with a "get the villains away" card to play as soon as the first death happens, to enforce the decreased tension?

At any rate, we had a fantastic time both as players and as folks running the game.

Daniel


----------



## Piratecat

I try to follow the classic rule of suspense that says "never let the players know exactly where the villain is." I make sure not to put all my eggs in one basket for exactly this reason. If the players still have something to be nervous about _other_ than the tower, I think the pacing concern is at least partially mitigated.


----------



## Epidiah Ravachol

Piratecat said:
			
		

> I try to follow the classic rule of suspense that says "never let the players know exactly where the villain is." I make sure not to put all my eggs in one basket for exactly this reason. If the players still have something to be nervous about _other_ than the tower, I think the pacing concern is at least partially mitigated.



That's excellent advice there.

It has been my experience that combining a dangerous situation with the live pre-pulls after the tower has fallen is enough to get hearts racing again. If the tower has just been rebuilt and you have a group of armed PCs squaring off with a roomful of crazed cultists, it is time to kick things into high gear. The first frothing cultist charges in with a strength and swiftness of action only found in madness. He is brandishing a stained knife, and you are going to have to pull to avoid an egregious chest wound. In fact, even if you prevent such a wound, the horrible blade will still cut deep enough into your defending arm to make you think twice about using it again (that is, unless you pull). It'll also be a pull to react in any way other than a defensively before he bowls through you and starts attacking your partner. If you do react in time, it will be a pull to hit him in such a way that he can't just ignore it in his mad fervor. And one more pull to do it without panicking and emptying half of your clip into him.

That's a possible five pulls to deal with just the first cultist (not including the pre-pulls which were at least three, but possibly more). That should be enough to hint to the players it might be time to retreat and regroup after their ally's death. Sort of the GM's way of saying, "This is a horror story and things at this very moment are pretty damn horrific."


----------



## Asmor

Epidiah Ravachol said:
			
		

> That's excellent advice there.
> 
> It has been my experience that combining a dangerous situation with the live pre-pulls after the tower has fallen is enough to get hearts racing again. If the tower has just been rebuilt and you have a group of armed PCs squaring off with a roomful of crazed cultists, it is time to kick things into high gear. The first frothing cultist charges in with a strength and swiftness of action only found in madness. He is brandishing a stained knife, and you are going to have to pull to avoid an egregious chest wound. In fact, even if you prevent such a wound, the horrible blade will still cut deep enough into your defending arm to make you think twice about using it again (that is, unless you pull). It'll also be a pull to react in any way other than a defensively before he bowls through you and starts attacking your partner. If you do react in time, it will be a pull to hit him in such a way that he can't just ignore it in his mad fervor. And one more pull to do it without panicking and emptying half of your clip into him.
> 
> That's a possible five pulls to deal with just the first cultist (not including the pre-pulls which were at least three, but possibly more). That should be enough to hint to the players it might be time to retreat and regroup after their ally's death. Sort of the GM's way of saying, "This is a horror story and things at this very moment are pretty damn horrific."




That's nothing, you should see how many AoOs my half-ogre master of the spiked chain gets!

Congrats, you've munchkinned a rules light system.  Hehe, I kid, I kid.


----------



## Graf

All about the PDF when it comes out.


----------



## Erywin

Wow, I saw this thread awhile back and was like Jenga? ah no thanks...  But now reading it all, sounds like an AMAZING system, definately going to pick this up for my next Halloween one shot!!

Cheers,
E


----------



## ShadowDenizen

> I’ll be running this again at GenCon and locally. Any takers?




Are you kidding?
After that write-up (and as an avid horror fan since childhood!!), how can I refuse?

Count me in if you run a game locally!!


----------



## Ace32

Wow! What a compelling system. 

Sadly, most of my games are run online . 

However, I could try to pull together a group to run a game like this - though I don't many local gamer friends. Before I purchase, about how many people is recommended to have a good time at this game?


----------



## Matchstick

Quick question:

When playing, are people sitting around a table, like in a GenCon gaming room, or playing someplace where the table (and Jenga) are at least a little separate, like couches in a hotel room with a coffee table in the middle (but out of reach of feet, etc.)?

I'm picturing this as the latter, just because of the accidental bump factor.


----------



## Rodrigo Istalindir

Matchstick said:
			
		

> Quick question:
> 
> When playing, are people sitting around a table, like in a GenCon gaming room, or playing someplace where the table (and Jenga) are at least a little separate, like couches in a hotel room with a coffee table in the middle (but out of reach of feet, etc.)?
> 
> I'm picturing this as the latter, just because of the accidental bump factor.




Not to mention the 'under the table' bump factor when someone else is drawing.


----------



## Crothian

I'm playing it at Origins.  I'm really looking forward to it!!


----------



## Pielorinho

Rodrigo Istalindir said:
			
		

> Not to mention the 'under the table' bump factor when someone else is drawing.



As we played it, if you bump the table (or shout "LOOK OUT!" at just the wrong moment) and the tower falls, you're the one that gets it, not the person making the pull.

I missed the advice from last month on multiple pulls at once; that makes a lot of sense!

Daniel


----------



## Epidiah Ravachol

Matchstick said:
			
		

> Quick question:
> 
> When playing, are people sitting around a table, like in a GenCon gaming room, or playing someplace where the table (and Jenga) are at least a little separate, like couches in a hotel room with a coffee table in the middle (but out of reach of feet, etc.)?
> 
> I'm picturing this as the latter, just because of the accidental bump factor.



The accidental bump factor is built into the rules and an important part of the game. But there is nothing in the rules that doesn't say you can't minimize this by putting distance between the players and the tower.

I've found while playing Dread, players will naturally start spreading themselves out, away from the table. Especially as people get careless with the growing nervous energy. At some con games, late at night, when we are the only group left in the room, it is not unusual to see the players each sitting at their own table with the tower teetering on some central table.

I will suggest that you do keep the tower in the middle, however, and not off to one side. It is important that everyone have that reminder in front of them.


----------



## Nyarlathotep

How well does the game work with a smaller group playing? I've bought the book and am waiting as patiently as I can for it to arrive, but my playing group is generally only 3 to 4 players plus myself GMing.


----------



## Matchstick

Epidiah Ravachol said:
			
		

> I will suggest that you do keep the tower in the middle, however, and not off to one side. It is important that everyone have that reminder in front of them.




I had thought of that too.  Gotta keep that constant reminder going.


----------



## Piratecat

Nyarlathotep said:
			
		

> How well does the game work with a smaller group playing?



Just fine. You'll want to give them reasons to pull more often!


----------



## LostSoul

Piratecat, how did you handle failed pulls?  Did whatever the PC was trying to do just not succeed, or did you jazz it up a little?


----------



## Piratecat

Okay, picture this scenario: 

[sblock=Spoiler for what may actually be a fun plot]The PCs are college students belonging to PETA (people for the ethical treatment of animals.) They are breaking into a lab known to use animals as test subjects. What the PCs don't know is that it's a secret government lab, and the test animals are now very powerful psionics who have managed to control the humans and who have killed the scientists, one by one, for the animals' sadistic amusement.

Unknowingly, the PCs walk down the hallway when a mind-controlled lab tech pops around the corner with a fire axe. She is babbling and unskilled and has clawed out one of her own eyes. She is clearly dangerous and insane; the PCs want to disarm her while she's still talking and before she attacks. "Pull to grab the axe away from her," I say.

Well, there are four possibilities on the pull. 

1. They pull and succeed. That means that they're successful in what they were trying to do. In this example, they've managed to yank the axe away from the lab tech without getting significantly hurt. I'd probably have them pull at least one more time to avoid getting bitten or clawed by her in the tussle.

2. They elect not to pull, or they start to and change their mind. In this case they will fail in whatever they're trying to do. In our example they try for the axe and don't pull it away. (Sucks for them, because I'd then have them pull to avoid the inevitable axe blow. If they didn't want to pull for that, either, they'd be struck by the axe. It would hurt them but not kill them, since normally only knocking down the tower does that.)

3. They take one for the team and purposefully knock down the tower, killing themselves but succeeding in their intended action. They would be killed by the axe but in a dying act of self-preservation, rip it from the hands of the mad-woman.

4. They pull and accidentally knock down the tower. Their action failed. Either immediately or soon, something will remove them from the game. In this case, the axe catches them in the throat. They'd turn gracefully and spray hot arterial blood across all of their friends' faces.

But what if I didn't want to off them so quickly? Perhaps I'd have one of the animals mind control *them*; I'd take the player aside, explain that they were now an agent of the animals, and have them secretly lead the rest of the PCs into real danger. Or maybe I'd use the "dead man walking" rule, where they'd take the role of "that guy everyone knows in gonna get killed" in horror movies. Their death is inevitable, and it's only a question of when... but they can still play a while longer. Either way, though, once they knock down the tower they are no longer permitted to pull from it, and anything difficult they try to do will automatically fail.
[/sblock]
These alternatives work nicely; after all, if someone knocks over the tower when trying to notice something, they can't get killed by a spot check! So you kill them in a nifty way soon afterwards, or do whatever is the most fun / horrific / impressive way to remove their character from the game.


----------



## Asmor

Piratecat said:
			
		

> These alternatives work nicely; after all, if someone knocks over the tower when trying to notice something, they can't get killed by a spot check!




Or maybe they succeeded a little _too_ well on that spot check? Who says it can't kill you? >=)


----------



## Piratecat

Asmor said:
			
		

> Or maybe they succeeded a little _too_ well on that spot check? Who says it can't kill you? >=)



"Okay, Larry glances quickly through the diary - and then he turns to the rest of you, melting eyes bubbling noisomely as they stream down his face. You smell something akin to rotting meat. Larry, do you scream as you die?"

"... yes?"

"Anyone else want to read the diary?"

"NO!"


----------



## Asmor

God, I _hate_ when that happens!


----------



## Crothian

I got to play this last night for the first time.  This might be the best con game I've ever played.  It was awesome!!


----------



## Piratecat

Who ran it? What'd you play?


----------



## Crothian

I can't remember who ran it, but he was a great guy and I could pick him out of a line up.  
We finished after midnight and I just needed to get home to sleep so I didn't stay and chat like I would have loved to.

The scenario was that everyone was in one of the those get away help centers.  you go through different wellness levels to reach emotional perfection or something like that.  If I can find the official description I'll type that in.  This is one of the scenarios they will use again so I won't post any spoilers.  

I played an athlete and local sport star. I talked about Dread to a lot of people and those that knew it said that I had to play the game.  I'm so glad I did.


----------



## Rodrigo Istalindir

I'm very much looking forward to playing it at GenCon.  I have what I think would be an awesome scenario for it, and I want to learn from Piratecat so maybe I can run it at a Gameday or something.


----------



## Epidiah Ravachol

Crothian said:
			
		

> I can't remember who ran it, but he was a great guy and I could pick him out of a line up.
> We finished after midnight and I just needed to get home to sleep so I didn't stay and chat like I would have loved to.
> 
> The scenario was that everyone was in one of the those get away help centers.  you go through different wellness levels to reach emotional perfection or something like that.  If I can find the official description I'll type that in.  This is one of the scenarios they will use again so I won't post any spoilers.
> 
> I played an athlete and local sport star. I talked about Dread to a lot of people and those that knew it said that I had to play the game.  I'm so glad I did.



The man who ran it, was his name Akira? And the scenario, was it 7 Ways to a Better You?


----------



## Crothian

Epidiah Ravachol said:
			
		

> The man who ran it, was his name Akira? And the scenario, was it 7 Ways to a Better You?




I never heard or saw what the guy's name was but that was the scenario.  It was Friday 8pm and the only name that I recall was Tophat though I have no idea why people called him that.  I was going to ask but he sacrificed himself and then left.


----------



## Epidiah Ravachol

I'm so glad the scenario worked for you. When I wrote it I was a little nervous about it as a con game. The situation seemed creepy enough for me, and one that worked well for my players here at home; but I get nervous when these things are in front of strangers. Especially if I'm not running it.

Though if the GM was Akira, and I suspect he was, you were in capable hands.


----------



## Shawn_Kehoe

woodelf said:
			
		

> Yep. There's Truth or Dare Jenga, which is, IIRC, 3 colors; Jenga Extreme, which is 3 colors, 2 finishes, and parallelogram-cross-section blocks; there's UNO Stacko, which is a 4-color knock-off; and there are any number of multi-colored knock-offs. One thing about the knock-offs: most of them don't stack quite the same: the length is greater than 3x the width, so the layers stack with gaps. No real impact on play, but it does make re-setting the tower a bit more fiddly, and thus time-consuming.




I'm not sure if Dread should be run with Jenga Xtreme though - I just picked up the set today, and after several tries my best result was 28 pulls. This might be dread's equivalent of the "killer DM."


----------



## Wystan

SO any word on the PDF?


----------



## Epidiah Ravachol

Wystan said:
			
		

> SO any word on the PDF?



Middle of September is the unofficial word. I'll report back once it becomes official.


----------



## Agamon

Okay, okay, I'm convinced.  I'm getting this game.  I'll premiere it Halloween for both my D&D group and my board gaming buddies.  Looks like lots of fun!


----------



## Piratecat

I doubt you'll be sorry. It plays that well.

My new scenario will hopefully involve a space colony and angry, angry prisoners -- as the PCs. We'll see how it goes.


----------



## Shawn_Kehoe

Piratecat said:
			
		

> I doubt you'll be sorry. It plays that well.
> 
> My new scenario will hopefully involve a space colony and angry, angry prisoners -- as the PCs. We'll see how it goes.




Cool! David Fincher wishes you good luck


----------



## woodelf

Shawn_Kehoe said:
			
		

> I'm not sure if Dread should be run with Jenga Xtreme though - I just picked up the set today, and after several tries my best result was 28 pulls. This might be dread's equivalent of the "killer DM."




Jenga Xtreme is for the group that has gotten too good at the pulling part of the game, or just is cocky and doesn't take it seriously, so it breaks the mood. And, yes, it is comparatively vicious. Though, if you're getting 28 pulls, you're doing pretty well. And keep in mind that 28 pulls just fiddling with it solo on a desk probably translates to like 15-20 in a Dread context. 

Also, a word of warning: don't buy the "Vintage Edition" Jenga for your Dread game. It has numerous flaws that make it a lousy Jenga, and extra-lousy for Dread. It is painted and due to either poor manufacturing tolerances, or the inherent nature of painting (which is why i stained a set, rather than painting it, to get it darker), the blocks vary significantly in thickness (the variance could easily hit half a millimeter which, in this context, is huge) and appear not to always have flat, parallel sides. Simply stacking up the blocks led to a tower with a noticable kink of a couple degrees part way up the tower in 2 out of 3 tries. The alignment tool is, of necessity, folded in falh in the box, meaning you'll have to assemble it eac time you play, likely significatnly decreasing its lifespan. The tower can't be stored assembled (this is also true of the latest cylindrical packaging of regular Jenga). And, while i'm bitching, the insert for keeping the blocks in place is cheap flimsy plastic which (1) won't last and (2) looks completely out of place with the nice wooden bookshelf case. It really should've been dense cardboard, like the stuff they make egg cartons out of. Finally, the paint makes the blocks super-slippery which, combined with their unevenness, makes the tower very unstable. At one point, just playing with the Jenga, with no Dread characters on the line, i successfully pulled a block, the tower was not visibly moving at all, and then it just spontaneously collapsed before i could put the block on top. Oh, except for in high-humidity situations, where they get super-sticky. All around, i can't recommend the Vintage Edition Jenga for anything, but especially not for Dread.


----------



## Piratecat

I have a generic "Jumbling Block Wooden Tower" that works well enough, other than getting me mocked repeatedly by Rel. Except when I lend it to someone for a killer clown game and they drop it into a player's coffee...


----------



## Epidiah Ravachol

Piratecat said:
			
		

> I have a generic "Jumbling Block Wooden Tower" that works well enough, other than getting me mocked repeatedly by Rel. Except when I lend it to someone for a killer clown game and they drop it into a player's coffee...



Did that stain it at all? I'm half tempted to coffee soak a generic Jenga just for the aesthetic.

But I must add, I've seen some really, really awkward Jenga knock-offs. So while I don't officially endorse any brand, I will caution people to pay attention to what they're purchasing.


----------



## Chaldfont

I saw this at Gen Con and thought about getting it, but I had already spent over seventy bucks on Reign and Dogs in the Vineyard. After reading these threads, I ordered it last night.

Wife: "Didn't you just buy a bunch of games at Gen Con?"
Me: "Uh, yeah... But.. eh... I looked all over for it and couldn't find it, so I ordered it online."
Wife: "Suuuuuure ya did."

BTW, I love the Jenga idea. Back in collage we had what we called Drunken Jenga. One night we took a Sharpie and wrote all kinds of nasty Truth or Dare junk on the pieces of our friend's set. Basically you had to pull a piece and do what it said.

I don't think Dread needs it, but this could be an interesting way to expand the game.


----------



## Nareau

Epidiah Ravachol said:
			
		

> Did that stain it at all? I'm half tempted to coffee soak a generic Jenga just for the aesthetic.



No, only my reputation.  

Dread was a little difficult to find at GenCon.  I spent a while looking for it, and eventually found a copy at some indie publisher booth.  I finished reading through it yesterday.

There's some excellent info in the book, but some issues (like combat) need to be addressed better.  The developers do communicate via their forum though, so that isn't a big deal.

I think I'm going to try to run a series of games based around the "Breakfast Club" characters from my GenCon game.  Each one will take place a few years later (at highschool reunions and the like).

Nareau


----------



## Piratecat

Nareau said:
			
		

> There's some excellent info in the book, but some issues (like combat) need to be addressed better.  The developers do communicate via their forum though, so that isn't a big deal.



Epidiah is the author. Yay, accessibility!

The game was for sale at the Indie Press Revolution booth. I had no problem finding it, but I knew where to look. I think it suffered from not having someone there to demo it. (unless there was, and I missed them.)

And not to worry, Nareau. While it's fun to give you a hard time, I never would have noticed the coffee if you hadn't told me. It wasn't a problem at all.


----------



## Shawn_Kehoe

woodelf said:
			
		

> Jenga Xtreme is for the group that has gotten too good at the pulling part of the game, or just is cocky and doesn't take it seriously, so it breaks the mood. And, yes, it is comparatively vicious. Though, if you're getting 28 pulls, you're doing pretty well. And keep in mind that 28 pulls just fiddling with it solo on a desk probably translates to like 15-20 in a Dread context.
> 
> Also, a word of warning: don't buy the "Vintage Edition" Jenga for your Dread game. It has numerous flaws that make it a lousy Jenga, and extra-lousy for Dread. It is painted and due to either poor manufacturing tolerances, or the inherent nature of painting (which is why i stained a set, rather than painting it, to get it darker), the blocks vary significantly in thickness (the variance could easily hit half a millimeter which, in this context, is huge) and appear not to always have flat, parallel sides. Simply stacking up the blocks led to a tower with a noticable kink of a couple degrees part way up the tower in 2 out of 3 tries. The alignment tool is, of necessity, folded in falh in the box, meaning you'll have to assemble it eac time you play, likely significatnly decreasing its lifespan. The tower can't be stored assembled (this is also true of the latest cylindrical packaging of regular Jenga). And, while i'm bitching, the insert for keeping the blocks in place is cheap flimsy plastic which (1) won't last and (2) looks completely out of place with the nice wooden bookshelf case. It really should've been dense cardboard, like the stuff they make egg cartons out of. Finally, the paint makes the blocks super-slippery which, combined with their unevenness, makes the tower very unstable. At one point, just playing with the Jenga, with no Dread characters on the line, i successfully pulled a block, the tower was not visibly moving at all, and then it just spontaneously collapsed before i could put the block on top. Oh, except for in high-humidity situations, where they get super-sticky. All around, i can't recommend the Vintage Edition Jenga for anything, but especially not for Dread.




Good warning! I bought a standard Jenga set for dread, and will save Xtreme for when they get really good. 

I was a little disappointed with the alignment tool in my Jenga set too. The box showed an illustration of a plastic sleeve, and my research online matched that. But the actual sleeve was flimsy cardboard, no good at all. I've taken to assembling it and using a hardcover book to straighten the tower.


----------



## Asmor

Not very happy with my Jenga set, either. I got the orange round box one, since that's all they had at Target (it was an impulse buy, I don't even have dread yet!). Flimsy, cheap cardboard aligner that doesn't work very poorly... I remember playing older sets with the plastic ones that worked well. And the box is terrible, hard to store and annoying to fit the pieces in there since they're not kept in a tower form, but if you just drop them in all willy-nilly they won't fit in.


----------



## Lockridge

Nareau said:
			
		

> No, only my reputation.
> There's some excellent info in the book, but some issues (like combat) need to be addressed better.  The developers do communicate via their forum though, so that isn't a big deal.
> Nareau




I can see your point but at the same time I think that for me, Dread really isn't meant to be a combat game at all.  I'm sure you're not looking for some sort of dice system or something because that would kind of spoil the point.

I'm comfortable with the combat system resolved by pulls.  For someone from a D&D background I did have to put some thought into it to get away from my d20 mindset.  Once I did that though it all made sense.  You sort of have to "let go" of the standard rulebook in your head that we've been trained to have from playing D&D.  I can just imagine what reaction I'd get if I just winged the combat rules in a D&D game with my group.  Dread works differently but it does work.


----------



## Shawn_Kehoe

Asmor said:
			
		

> Not very happy with my Jenga set, either. I got the orange round box one, since that's all they had at Target (it was an impulse buy, I don't even have dread yet!). Flimsy, cheap cardboard aligner that doesn't work very poorly... I remember playing older sets with the plastic ones that worked well. And the box is terrible, hard to store and annoying to fit the pieces in there since they're not kept in a tower form, but if you just drop them in all willy-nilly they won't fit in.




Yeah, that's the same set I bought.

Look at the illustration of the aligner on the box - TOTAL false advertisting.


----------



## woodelf

Shawn_Kehoe said:
			
		

> I was a little disappointed with the alignment tool in my Jenga set too. The box showed an illustration of a plastic sleeve, and my research online matched that. But the actual sleeve was flimsy cardboard, no good at all. I've taken to assembling it and using a hardcover book to straighten the tower.




There's been a noticable cheapening of Jenga in the last 5 years. The quality control on the blocks is poorer, the finish is lighter and i think the newest sets don't even have a finish, the alignment tool has gone from heavy plastic to heavy cardboard to light cardboard, and now the switch to the cylindrical box. I'll be writing a letter to Hasbro.



			
				Chaldfont said:
			
		

> BTW, I love the Jenga idea. Back in collage we had what we called Drunken Jenga. One night we took a Sharpie and wrote all kinds of nasty Truth or Dare junk on the pieces of our friend's set. Basically you had to pull a piece and do what it said.
> 
> I don't think Dread needs it, but this could be an interesting way to expand the game.




I'm pretty sure they still sell a "truth-or-dare Jenga", which is pretty much what you say. Though i'm sure both the questions and dares are rather tamer than you came up with in college.


----------



## woodelf

Piratecat said:
			
		

> The game was for sale at the Indie Press Revolution booth. I had no problem finding it, but I knew where to look. I think it suffered from not having someone there to demo it. (unless there was, and I missed them.)




We've debated that matter. I don't think there's any point--the reason Dread works is the building tension--a dozen pulls is way more than the sum of 12 pulls. In a demo, we could only show what happens with, say, a couple pulls. It would, i think, actually undermine the game--being worse than nothing.

And, yeah, we could pre-stack the Jenga for a demo, but merely having a tippy tower isn't the point either--it's specifically that you got there by making all those pulls. Same as pre-pulls during a regular game don't have anywhere near the tension-raising effect of the same number of pulls made during play. 

And, as you've observed, a noisy, distracting environment makes the focus and tension harder--imagine trying it in the exhibit hall. It would more than likely just reaffirm preconceptions that the mechanic is just gimmicky and silly, rather than shatter them. 

Finally, while we could show people some example questionnaires, i don't think it gets the point across as well as answering a questionnaire does. And that, again, take a fair bit of time. Maybe what we should do in the future, in addition to running as many games on the con schedule as we have manpower for, is have a steady presence at Games On Demand, and signage indicating as such at the IPR booth, and make sure the staff knows as much, so they can direct anyone who wants a hands-on demo there.

Now, i *didn't* double-check that the folks working the booth at least could *explain* the game, and maybe i should've. I just assumed that enough of them were familiar with the game (since i actually knew that a number of them were) to sell it. [Also, i have a bias: i'm not sold on short demos, in the first place. For me, 9 times out of 10, a short demo doesn't do anything to help me decide if a game is for me or not. I do much better flipping through the book and reading some bits, or having someone explain the game to me. Showing isn't better than telling, for me--i'm very much an abstract, rather than concrete, learner. And i've heard from at least a few other folks that were similarly turned off on the Forge booth's emphasis on demos, in the past--that the demo wasn't helping, but they couldn't get the sort of help they did needed on understanding the games. I'm happy to report that, for the most part, that was no longer true this year.]


----------



## Rodrigo Istalindir

*Gameday 'Dread' session, after-action report*

*I plan on running this game at future gamedays, so if you think you might ever play in one of my games, you should skip this....
*




So, I ran my first Dread game at the DC Gameday last weekend.  I was a little apprehensive -- Dread is a little out of my comfort zone DM'ing-wise, as I tend towards more tactically oriented games for the most part.  Still, I had what I thought was a cool setting, and I tried to absorb as much as I could from Piratecat's exemplary game at GenCon.

The setting was the SS Morro Castle, a cruise ship that went up in flames off the coast of New Jersey in 1934, killing 134 people.   It made a regular NY/Havana run at a time when there was increasing tension between the countries, smuggling, etc.  To this day, no one is sure what really caused the fire, but 20 years later a crewman considered a hero during the tragedy was convicted of arson and murder...

So, the players knew ahead of time that the ship was going to burn.  I wanted the players to start with the knowledge that people were going to die, and that the clock was ticking.  I also wanted to give a setting where they could (literally) get away with murder, as there would be little chance of getting caught in the chaos.

The characters were:  a businessman (who was actually an agent-provacateur for the US gov't), his wife (who didn't know of his secret), a ship's steward with a shady past, an auditor for the Ward Line investigating suspicious activity aboard the ship, a former diplomat returning home, and a nun.  For the questions, I had a mix of personal background, some political, some seemingly innocuous (Did you order the chicken or the fish for dinner?), and a couple to start the players on the road to distrusting each other (What did you witness at the Hotel Nacional?).

Everyone did a great job with the questionaire, and with the characters in play.  Some things went in a direction I totally didn't expect (2 out of 6 were closeted homosexuals, including the nun, so there ended up being a little of the Love Boat) but for the most part things played out more or less as I expected.  They didn't  all go for the main 'hook', but a couple of them stumbled upon it.  A couple of them managed to get away with a fair bit of ill-gotten booty.  And one of them got the gold, too  

I screwed up a couple of opportunities -- I had a perfect chance to put the auditor on the trail of the treasure and the nun at the same time, and I totally brain-farted.  I'm usually pretty good at winging things, but 15 minutes after the chance I was mentally kicking myself this time.  Unfortunately, events had proceeded such that there was no way to retcon things at that point.  Also, I apologize to the player of Mary Billings, as I don't think I had enough for her to do to make her an integral part of the session.  I think in the future, I'll make that character an NPC (as it provides another reason for the spy character to be careful) and come up with another character concept to replace her.

Preparation wise, I read up fairly extensively on the history of the event.  Aside from the rough time-line, I didn't script anything.  There were certain historically accurate events mixed in (the captain's suspicious death hours before the fire, for example), but I did play a little fast and loose with the timing (there was more time between the interrupted party and the fire in real life).  Pacing-wise, though, aside from a little nip and tuck, the game played out in a lttle over four hours, which was darn near dead on.    I did the whole game from my head, with just a couple scribbled notes as the game went on.  Next time I'd like to have some printouts of pictures of the ship to help set the mood, and also serve as an abstract map so that as people explore, it's easier to keep track of who's where.

As is typical with gamedays, the location was a little noisy, but not as bad as I'd feared, and I didn't find it distracting.  Perhaps I was intent enough on juggling all the pieces, though -- I hope it didn't detract too much from the mood.  I was fortunate to be able to exercise 'hosting privileges' and snag the area with the comfy chairs and sofa and coffee table, as opposed to the round table and folding chairs that most had to use.  For Dread I think that is critical to have that sort of set up, where people can gather around but not have to worry about bumping the table, and be able to move about for pulls.

With what I've learned from this session, I've got several ideas for tightening things up and making the characters more inter-dependent/mutually suspicious, and of hooking them with the main macguffin earlier.  I hope to get the chance to run it again.


----------



## John Crichton

Rodrigo Istalindir said:
			
		

> Also, I apologize to the player of Mary Billings, as I don't think I had enough for her to do to make her an integral part of the session.  I think in the future, I'll make that character an NPC (as it provides another reason for the spy character to be careful) and come up with another character concept to replace her.



Feel free to replace her, but I still had a blast.  

I will admit that I could have done more with the character and it's very possible that my severe lack of sleep hindered my playing ability.


----------



## Chaldfont

I'm putting the finishing touches on a scenario for a Dread game Friday night. Any hints on character questions? Mind posting the questions you had for the Morro Castle game?


----------



## Piratecat

Personally, I'd avoid any questions that don't either (a) lead to plot revelations or (b) make the player think about what the PC would answer. Binary questions like Rodrigo's "chicken or fish" probably wouldn't always be my first choice unless they were plot related.

Thank about how you personally see the characters -- then write questions subtly steering thoughts in that direction.  For instance if you think a character might be greedy, ask questions that lean towards that. "When out with friends, why are you often reluctant to pay for your full portion of dinner?" "Would you cheat your subordinates in order to make your fortune?"  The trick is not mandating the behavior unless it's essential for the plot.


----------



## Rodrigo Istalindir

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Binary questions like Rodrigo's "chicken or fish" probably wouldn't always be my first choice unless they were plot related.




[sblock]That one was (a) a way to screw with the character's heads, and (b) a clue that maybe there was something they should investigate.

The characters were to have dinner with the captain of the ship, but he begged off and they dined without him.  Later that evening, he was found dead after having his meal delivered to his cabin.  By forcing an either/or rather than making it open-ended, I guaranteed that some of the characters would have had the same meal, leading them to question whether or not he'd been poisoned, and also making them worry that maybe they had been, too.
[/sblock]

Questions (and answers) from the game attached.


----------



## Piratecat

Sneaky - and clever!


----------



## BSF

I just read Piratecat's review yesterday (yeah, I haven't been around much lately) and I love what I am reading!  This game looks fun.  Too bad my players don't want to try it this Friday.  Something about wanting to see what they find beyond the bluesteel doors down in Ghul's Labyrinth this next week.  *sigh*

Oh well, I will find a way to run this game and see if I can make it work.  It sounds terrific.  At least with my players begging off right now, I will have time to get a copy of the rulebook.


----------



## Chaldfont

I ran my first Dread game last night. Unfortunately, I only got three players. But we had a great time. I wasn't sure if the two big gimmicks (Jenga and the character questionnaires) would work but they sure did. Even I, as host, was tense as the players pulled blocks from the rickety tower! By the end, the players had to make hard choices: do you try a pull, knowing that there's a good chance the tower will fall or do you accept failure? The stakes are higher, and the chance for success is lower. Very exciting and the tension of Jenga translates really well into fear for your character.

My scenario was a Bigfoot story with a twist. You can find it here.


----------



## Asmor

This is kind of tangential, but what would you guys do if the tower got to the point where there were literally no more remotely safe pulls left? It might sound like an academic question, but a few weeks ago I was playing Jenga with a friend and we actually got to the point where every single pull was taken, and every layer was left with either just the middle piece or just the two outside pieces.


----------



## Rodrigo Istalindir

If you somehow got it to the point where there were no more *physically possible* pulls left and it was still early in the scenario, I'd probably still push things and see if someone either knocked it down on purpose and let them take the 'dead man walking' out.  If it just got to the point where there the tower was so unstable that even breathing on it was risky but there were infinitely-impropable pulls left, I'd just keep going.  It's Dread, dammit, someone's got to die!  Again, though, if it made sense to pull out DMW, I would.

In my (albeit limited) experience, though, unless you have a bunch of nerves-of-steel skilled Jenga players, the tower is going to drop before you get to the point of where there isn't a single possible pull remaining.  Playing for fun and playing when your character is on the line are two different things.


----------



## Cerebral Paladin

Re: no possible pulls left:  When I have played Jenga before, we've viewed it as acceptable to take a layer with two left and to move one of the two to the center, steadying the tower while doing so, and to then draw the other out.  It's risky, of course, and the tower is likely to fall after a couple pulls like that (it could easily fall on the first one), but it means you haven't really gotten to the "no pulls possible" stage until the tower is exactly one block on each level.

Applying that to Dread:  obviously, the danger of each pull at that point would be very, very high.  But that's to be expected and is rather the point of the game's mechanism.  And, as Rodrigo pointed out, that will be a relatively rare Dread game anyway.

But that's all in the abstract-- I haven't played yet, although I'm going to for the first time next Saturday!  I'm very excited about giving it a try.


----------



## Festivus

Epidiah Ravachol said:
			
		

> Middle of September is the unofficial word. I'll report back once it becomes official.




Any word on that PDF Epi?  I may have to break down and buy the actual book, since I likely have saved enough for it by now


----------



## Epidiah Ravachol

I've seen the PDF proofs, which means it is just around the corner. Unfortunately, producing games is not the day job for anyone at the Impossible Dream, so that corner might be somewhere in December. But as far as I can tell, it is in the tidying up stage.


----------



## Hypersmurf

Ooooo-ooh...







-Hyp.


----------



## Asmor

Thanks for bumping the thread, I completely forgot that I needed to post here!

The other day I took my fiancée to Pandemonium in Cambridge, MA. She's more of a casual gamer, who's trying to get into running games, and was looking for a new system. So I was browsing the board games when she comes over to me and asks if I'd heard anything about "this," this being a small white book in her hand with a bloody hand print.

For a second my eyes focus on the title... "Dread... wait-- DREAD?!?" and I snatch it out of her hands, excitedly telling her that this was the game I'd been talking about so long ago and the reason I'd bought that Jenga set.

So... Sweet serendipity! Sadly, I haven't had a chance to really look through it yet, that same night I got the Starcraft boardgame, which took up all my time in the evening, and now I've got finals to worry about...

But it's sitting there on the bureau, taunting me...


----------



## Epidiah Ravachol

Asmor said:
			
		

> But it's sitting there on the bureau, taunting me...



As long as it is taunting, I know it hasn't forgotten its training.

You Massachusetts people should keep an eye on JiffyCon. I know an insider who tells me the next one will probably be in a couple months and in Boston. I'll be there and if there are enough interested folks, I definitely run a Dread game or two.


----------



## Epidiah Ravachol

Epidiah Ravachol said:
			
		

> You Massachusetts people should keep an eye on JiffyCon. I know an insider who tells me the next one will probably be in a couple months and in Boston. I'll be there and if there are enough interested folks, I definitely run a Dread game or two.



It's official. If you find yourself in Boston on the 8th of March, swing by Pandemonium Books & Games and sit in on a game or two. At the moment there is only one Dread game running, but if there is overwhelming interest, more can be arranged.


----------



## Piratecat

I'll be there!


----------



## Rodrigo Istalindir

Ran a second game of my 'Morro Castle' scenario last weekend.  I love how I can have pretty much the same starting point, and the same skeleton plot, and have things turn out very differently.  And I don't know if it was an especially good Jenga table, or just really good players, but the first collapse came around pull 35 and the second was up to 41 when the player decided to abandon mid-pull and knock it down intentionally. (And the first collapse came after the player successfully pulled and then dropped the block when placing it back on top!)

That's substantially higher than we got the first time.  Oddly, though, despite there being more pulls, the deaths came at right about the same points, because there were a couple of epic contested pulls along the way.

Got to use Dead Man Walking, this time, as the first death came at an inopportune time, and it ended up working pretty well.  I still had one character that I didnt' do a good job of integrating into the story, so it's back to the drawing board for that one (Sorry, Keryn!).  I also had 7 people this time, which I think is just too many for me to juggle plot-wise.


----------



## diaglo

Rodrigo Istalindir said:
			
		

> I also had 7 people this time, which I think is just too many for me to juggle plot-wise.



blame it on old age mang.


----------



## Rodrigo Istalindir

diaglo said:
			
		

> blame it on old age mang.




Where's Fickle when I need him?

Actually, it wasn't so much mental lapses on my part (no more than normal, anyway), it's just that the number of times I had to deal with people one on one went up, and I think that affects the pacing and the involvement of the others too much.  Something to work on for next time.


----------



## Piratecat

Rodrigo Istalindir said:
			
		

> I still had one character that I didnt' do a good job of integrating into the story, so it's back to the drawing board for that one (Sorry, Keryn!).  I also had 7 people this time, which I think is just too many for me to juggle plot-wise.



you probably do this already, but when I have 7 people, I make sure that their characters know (and sometimes hate) one another already. that means that they can roleplay against one another a little easier if I'm focusing on someone else.

I'm converting an Esoterrorists scenario into a Dread game. I'm really interested in seeing how different it feels.


----------



## Rodrigo Istalindir

Piratecat said:
			
		

> you probably do this already, but when I have 7 people, I make sure that their characters know (and sometimes hate) one another already. that means that they can roleplay against one another a little easier if I'm focusing on someone else.




Actually, I think that may have been part of the problem.  The scenario does have a lot of reasons for the players to work against each other, and that was why I was moving away from the table so much.  

The biggest difference (aside from the 7th person) was that the first time, pretty much everyone knew each other pretty well (TU, Queen D, Reveal, John Crichton, Cthuhlu's Librarian, and madwabbit was the only 'noob' to the EN crowd.  I may have been more willing to interact with them one on one at the table because I'd gamed with them before and wasn't as worried about giving something away -- I knew I could just say 'Opps, forget you heard that' and move on.  The game last week was more mixed, and I was a little more concerned about keeping knowledge compartmentalized.



			
				Piratecat said:
			
		

> I'm converting an Esoterrorists scenario into a Dread game. I'm really interested in seeing how different it feels.




Me, too!  

My next attempt (maybe to premier at GenCon) will be using Dread to run a game based on the old Simon Hawke 'Time Wars' books.  I just have to figure out the right setting...


----------



## madwabbit

Rodrigo Istalindir said:
			
		

> The biggest difference (aside from the 7th person) was that the first time, pretty much everyone knew each other pretty well (TU, Queen D, Reveal, John Crichton, Cthuhlu's Librarian, and madwabbit was the only 'noob' to the EN crowd.



noob? 

NOOB?!?!

~snort!~


----------



## howandwhy99

We played a game I ran in November at our first Loki-con up in the north mountains.  I called it Dread Cthulhu mixing the Dread rules with the best of CoC rules: group pulls for sanity, a "rock" to determine who went first for those, and picks from a shuffled tarot deck to divvy out insanities.  Insanities were tied to a sheet, but I also paired them to the consequences at the time.  Sanity loss happened either from a failed pull attempt or from learning mythos knowledge (MK) in game.  MK earned folks special supernatural powers, but as I said also earned you a certain amount of crazy to go with them.  The learning of "things man was not meant to know".

The setting was the fall of 1943 in German-occupied Paris.  The players each came from one of the Allied powers and if they weren't part of the French resistance they parachuted in at the beginning of the game.  Their "you will not see me again" contact led the group to an apartment safe house which was entered through a young woman and her children's refrigerator.  The room had no other exits.  Besides some barred windows, a bathroom, and some other furniture, clothes, necessities, etc., they were fed by the young woman through the back of the refrigerator.  (They had to take out the shelves and food whenever they wanted to leave)  

It was a good set up, but in retrospect I did make some mistakes.  I had 4 areas set up to explore via a handy "This is your mission" enveloped message I left in the room's footlocker, not to mention a few weapons.  The problem was: 4 was really too many to get through as we started late, I hadn't counted on the safe room being an area too, nor on the Nazi HQs in Hotel Meurice. 






The other difficulty was creating characters. It took a couple of hours and pushed our starting time back pretty late.  Fortunately the guys really filled out their questionnaires with awesome material.  And they came ready to play too.  Each had their own accent to try out (I was amazed at how good they were) and lots of "sit back and watch 'em play" happened for the next couple of hours of the session.  All of it in the safe room which they _thought_ they explored fully.  Heck, they didn't trust a single one of each other until everyone's story was told and questioned for truth. 

The rest of the session was when the tension turned up.  Nothing like making your way as spies through a city where death lies around every corner... oh yeah, and cthulhu monsters.  I think setting really cranked up the mood, but I couldn't have done it without the tower.  It really helped put risk into every action they took.

It would take too long to really list all the details and it's been a few months.  For a taste though, Project Ancestor did include: exploring Notre Dame de Paris, the catacombs of Paris, La Sorbonne, and the Musee de Louvre; three wild men in the Ahnenerbe & Institute for occult warfare to be stopped: Karl Wilgut, Otto Rahn, & Ludwig Straniak; the Bayeux Tapestry, the Curies' radiation machine, a green glowing ghost, the Rune of Man, doors that weren't there a second ago, an occult ritual, an ancient army, a glowing red gem, Himmler's wooden "throne", a shadowless world, and a second threat against invading Britain. 

It was all very David Lynch in style.


----------



## Seonaid

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *   1.  You are over 40. Why do you still live with your mother? *_ A loaded question. I wanted to establish that other people might see him as a mama's boy, even if he doesn't see himself that way. Just asking this question says a ton about the character. _
> 
> *   4. Why didn’t you enlist during the Great War?*_ Another non-loaded question. Maybe he's sickly, or a coward, but answering this defines personality. It also does something even more important -- it reminds the player that the game happens just after WW1, and that other PCs may be veterans who resent his non-enlisting._
> 
> *  9. Have you considered hospitalizing your mother?* _This relationship is an important one, since the mother is a PC. This establishes whether he's resentful of her or not._
> 
> * 10. Do you believe in spirits?* _The game is a ghost story in part, and his mom believes in spirits. Does he share her interests?_
> 
> * 13. Is it worth having a go at Camille, your mother’s French maid?* _Another Pc. This establishes Camille's existence, and possibly sets up some tension. It also suggests that the PC may have lust as a secret sin._​



How much do the players know of their relationships to the other characters? Do they know any of the other questionnaires? From what I've heard it sounds like no, but if there are pre-established relationships, it seems like role-playing them out during a 4-hour session would be too time consuming. How do you deal with that?

If it's addressed in the book, sorry--I have it but haven't had a chance to crack it open  yet.


----------



## Plane Sailing

Seonaid said:
			
		

> How much do the players know of their relationships to the other characters? Do they know any of the other questionnaires? From what I've heard it sounds like no, but if there are pre-established relationships, it seems like role-playing them out during a 4-hour session would be too time consuming. How do you deal with that?




When I played in PC's game I answered the questionnaire without realising that anyone in the questionnaire might be appearing in the game being run by another player - although one of the other players quickly realised that THEY knew ME once the game started and soon started taking pulls to prevent me from recognising THEM 

Cheers


----------



## Piratecat

The characters only know what's listed in their questionnaires. Thus, if you want a player to know or assume something, you need to form the questions so that they point you in the right way. The secret is to do so without being too blatant or insistent.

I can give an example, if you're interested.


----------



## Seonaid

Piratecat said:
			
		

> The characters only know what's listed in their questionnaires. Thus, if you want a player to know or assume something, you need to form the questions so that they point you in the right way. The secret is to do so without being too blatant or insistent.
> 
> I can give an example, if you're interested.



 I *am* interested, indeed.


----------



## JoeBlank

howandwhy99 said:
			
		

> We played a game I ran in November at our first Loki-con up in the north mountains.




This game was truly the highlight of Loki-con. I had a blast, and will never stop pestering howandwhy99 to run another.


----------



## Hypersmurf

Piratecat said:
			
		

> The characters only know what's listed in their questionnaires. Thus, if you want a player to know or assume something, you need to form the questions so that they point you in the right way. The secret is to do so without being too blatant or insistent.




From memory, we had a couple of instances (non-critical) in the game at GenCon where related answers in separate questionnaires contained contradictions; I'm guessing if there'd been anything crucial that fell into the same bucket, though, you'd have made a note to one or both players that some detail of their answer should be Y instead of X.

-Hyp.


----------



## Hypersmurf

Rodrigo Istalindir said:
			
		

> My next attempt (maybe to premier at GenCon) will be using Dread to run a game based on the old Simon Hawke 'Time Wars' books.  I just have to figure out the right setting...




Ooh!

I'll have to keep an eye out.

-Hyp.


----------



## Piratecat

Seonaid said:
			
		

> I *am* interested, indeed.



I'm working on questionnaires right now. I'll give a few examples once I finish.


----------



## Rodrigo Istalindir

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> Ooh!
> 
> I'll have to keep an eye out.
> 
> -Hyp.




It was our side-discussion in the SW PbP that got me thinking about it.  I'll have to buy PC a couple beers and pick his brains at NCGD.


----------



## Asmor

I think I'm about ready to run a Dread game, so I wrote up some questionnaires. Would like some criticism from those of you with experience running the game. 

Set in the 1920s in a secluded mansion a couple hours from Chicago. Beatrice Simon, matriarch of the Simon family, has passed away, and the PCs have all been summoned for the reading of her will. Supernatural hijinx are the backdrop and catalyst for simmering inter-personal drama...

[sblock=Alex Simon Police officer, son of Beatrice and Montgomery Simon, brother of Felicia Hartwood]Why did you become a police officer?

What is your specialty, professionally speaking?

When it comes to corruption, are you part of the solution or part of the problem?

What did you bring with you to the reading?

Why do you think you deserve the family estate?

What object do you hope to get because it reminds you of your father?

When you found out your father was involved in the occult, why did you keep it a secret?

Why did you submit the anonymous tip about your sister's heroin addiction which ultimately lead to her losing her job?

Do you think Enrique, the gardener, made you gay, or was he just a case of “right place at the right time?”

Does anyone else know that you're gay?

What's your best feature?

What hobby do you spend your free time on?

How long have you been working on that double-homocide?
[/sblock]

[sblock=Felicia Hartwood Former FBI agent, daughter of Beatrice and Montgomery Simon, sister of Alex Simon, wife of Darren Hartwood]What kind of training did you receive in the FBI?

What do you do with all your spare time since being fired?

Are you still on heroin, despite losing your job over it? If so, when was your last fix; if not, how did you beat it?

What are you going to do when you find the person responsible for ratting you out and getting you fired?

Why do you think you deserve the family estate?

What object do you hope to get because it reminds you of your father?

What did you bring with you to the reading?

How do you feel about the fact that this your husband's second marriage?

Who's more important to you: your husband or your brother?

Were you surprised when your mother confided in you that your father's sudden death wasn't due to illness, but suicide?

What are you good at, yet try to keep that skill a secret?

What's your best feature?

When will you tell your husband that you're pregnant?[/sblock]

[sblock=Darren Hartwood Accountant, husband of Felicia Hartwood]Why did your first marriage fail? Do you ever miss your ex, Claire?

Are you a faithful husband?

Why do you think you and your wife get along so well?

Why do you blame yourself for your wife's heroin addiction?

What did your mother-in-law tell you on your wedding day which you've kept secret all these years?

How did you feel when you found that your mother-in-law passed away?

What did you bring with you to the reading?

What's your opinion on homosexuality?

What's your best feature?

Do you get along well with children?

Why do you still keep that ratty old baseball card in your wallet?

What's your secret shame?

Why is the mob after you?[/sblock]

[sblock=Donald Covini Owner of the Seventh Heaven night club]How long have you been in the mob?

Do you still remember the first man you killed? Is it a cherished or a haunting memory?

What big mistake did you make while disposing of some “garbage” last week?

What did you bring with you to the reading?

Why was the Widow Simon so fond of you?

How long ago did you stop visiting your mother's grave?

Why haven't you settled down with one woman yet?

How do you know the Widow Simon's gardener, Enrique?

How did Darren Hartwood's first wife Claire compare you to he in bed?

What's your best feature?

Why is that gold watch so special to you?

Are you more worried about whether you'll be busted or whether God will forgive you?[/sblock]


----------



## scholar

ok, just picked this up, and considering I had 2-3 games all but designed after one reading of it, I whole heartedly approve of the game

I now have two questions

first, where's the cheapest place to get a jenga set nowadays, and which ones work the best?

I see a halloween one on amazon for about eight bucks, but I saw some talk of the the paint being an issue with the stacking an so on

and also, does anyone have any ideas for adapting the trust mechanic from cold city to dread? since over all, I think the setting would be amazing, but I really like the idea of that mechanic


----------



## Epidiah Ravachol

scholar said:
			
		

> and also, does anyone have any ideas for adapting the trust mechanic from cold city to dread? since over all, I think the setting would be amazing, but I really like the idea of that mechanic



Tell me more about the trust mechanic. I'm intrigued.


----------



## pogre

pdf! please


----------



## Rodrigo Istalindir

Asmor said:
			
		

> I think I'm about ready to run a Dread game, so I wrote up some questionnaires. Would like some criticism from those of you with experience running the game.




Some general suggestions:

I'd be really leery about defining a character's sexual orientation.  That's a big thing to decide for someone unless it's absolutely critical to the plot, and even then, I'd rather hint at it and let the player decide to go in that direction rather than make it explicit.  Some people would be really uncomfortable forced to roleplay that if it was a big part of the scenario, and if it's not important, there's no reason to include it.

Don't be overly explicit with the hooks.  For example, instead of asking "When you found out your father was involved in the occult..." think about asking "Why do you think your father was so secretive?"  In my experience, what a player will invest in the character is more meaningful and creative the more room you give them.  And the game will play out in ways you don't expect based on how their answers change things, which is a hell of a lot of fun to DM.  I've run my Morro Castle game three times now, with mostly the same characters, and each time it's played out very differently. 

You've done a good job of intertwining the characters -- the intra-party distrust has been half the fun of the Dread games I've played/run.  Be prepared for that to sidetrack things, though.  You've gone out of your way in the questions to bring those issues up; most or all of the players are going to sieze on that, so if you're not ready to incorporate that into the scenario, it's going to throw you off.


----------



## scholar

Epidiah Ravachol said:
			
		

> Tell me more about the trust mechanic. I'm intrigued.




basically, the setting is monster hunters in the begining of the cold war in berlin, they recomend having one character from each of the powers in charge (US, UK, USSR, and france)

to build the conflict between the party, every character has national agenda's and personal agendas...

everyone has a trust score for the rest of the group

in high tension points, they can get bonus dice for trusting other members of the party...

the example they use is while one character is picking a lock, another is playing look out to keep trouble off of them

if there's a trust score of two, the person picking the lock gets two bonus dice on the lock pick roll because he's trusting the other one to watch his back...

I'm not sure how that would work with the pull mechanic... but I love the idea of how it builds on the relationships between the characters


----------



## Rodrigo Istalindir

scholar said:
			
		

> I'm not sure how that would work with the pull mechanic... but I love the idea of how it builds on the relationships between the characters




In the games I've run, I've had situations come up where people could take pulls for other characters.  To borrow your example, the task is 'pick the lock without being seen'.  I'd let either party pull; if the guy picking the lock pulls and succeeds, it means he did it so quick that there were in before anyone could wander by.  If the lookout pulled, then he spotted a stranger wandering by and managed to intercept and distract him.  And I've pulled people away from the table in similar circumstances to clue them in before hand and give them the chance to shaft the other guy without the him knowing.

Depending on the setup (and I think your scenario certainly qualifies), the trust/suspicion dichotomy is going to be a major factor without any additional mechanics.  Although I've not seen your 'trust mechanic' in play, so maybe I'm not grasping the nuances.


----------



## scholar

Rodrigo Istalindir said:
			
		

> In the games I've run, I've had situations come up where people could take pulls for other characters.  To borrow your example, the task is 'pick the lock without being seen'.  I'd let either party pull; if the guy picking the lock pulls and succeeds, it means he did it so quick that there were in before anyone could wander by.  If the lookout pulled, then he spotted a stranger wandering by and managed to intercept and distract him.  And I've pulled people away from the table in similar circumstances to clue them in before hand and give them the chance to shaft the other guy without the him knowing.
> 
> Depending on the setup (and I think your scenario certainly qualifies), the trust/suspicion dichotomy is going to be a major factor without any additional mechanics.  Although I've not seen your 'trust mechanic' in play, so maybe I'm not grasping the nuances.




that's kind of what I was guessing I'd have to do

not to thread jack about another game too much, but basically I liked the idea of getting a bonus for actually trusting another character in game where there are so many things pulling you in other directions, and it's probably not in your best interest to be trusting than

thanks again


----------



## Cassander

Rodrigo Istalindir said:
			
		

> In the games I've run, I've had situations come up where people could take pulls for other characters.  To borrow your example, the task is 'pick the lock without being seen'.  I'd let either party pull; if the guy picking the lock pulls and succeeds, it means he did it so quick that there were in before anyone could wander by.  If the lookout pulled, then he spotted a stranger wandering by and managed to intercept and distract him.  And I've pulled people away from the table in similar circumstances to clue them in before hand and give them the chance to shaft the other guy without the him knowing.
> 
> Depending on the setup (and I think your scenario certainly qualifies), the trust/suspicion dichotomy is going to be a major factor without any additional mechanics.  Although I've not seen your 'trust mechanic' in play, so maybe I'm not grasping the nuances.




Just don't pick a lock AND act as your own watchman!


----------



## Asmor

Rodrigo Istalindir said:
			
		

> Some general suggestions:
> 
> I'd be really leery about defining a character's sexual orientation.  That's a big thing to decide for someone unless it's absolutely critical to the plot, and even then, I'd rather hint at it and let the player decide to go in that direction rather than make it explicit.  Some people would be really uncomfortable forced to roleplay that if it was a big part of the scenario, and if it's not important, there's no reason to include it.
> 
> Don't be overly explicit with the hooks.  For example, instead of asking "When you found out your father was involved in the occult..." think about asking "Why do you think your father was so secretive?"  In my experience, what a player will invest in the character is more meaningful and creative the more room you give them.  And the game will play out in ways you don't expect based on how their answers change things, which is a hell of a lot of fun to DM.  I've run my Morro Castle game three times now, with mostly the same characters, and each time it's played out very differently.
> 
> You've done a good job of intertwining the characters -- the intra-party distrust has been half the fun of the Dread games I've played/run.  Be prepared for that to sidetrack things, though.  You've gone out of your way in the questions to bring those issues up; most or all of the players are going to sieze on that, so if you're not ready to incorporate that into the scenario, it's going to throw you off.




Thanks for the suggestions! One of the things I was worried about was that I might be defining the characters a bit too strictly with them. I think you're right about the sexuality thing, I'll replace that with something else. Mostly I threw that in there because I didn't have a good way to tie a couple of the characters together. I was actively trying to create intra-personal conflict.

I'm a little leery about ditching the occult question, though, because I think that's literally the only clue I have before the game starts that there's anything "funny" going on. Well, that and the sister's question about her father's death being a suicide.


----------



## Epidiah Ravachol

scholar said:
			
		

> basically, the setting is monster hunters in the begining of the cold war in berlin, they recomend having one character from each of the powers in charge (US, UK, USSR, and france)
> 
> to build the conflict between the party, every character has national agenda's and personal agendas...
> 
> everyone has a trust score for the rest of the group
> 
> in high tension points, they can get bonus dice for trusting other members of the party...
> 
> the example they use is while one character is picking a lock, another is playing look out to keep trouble off of them
> 
> if there's a trust score of two, the person picking the lock gets two bonus dice on the lock pick roll because he's trusting the other one to watch his back...
> 
> I'm not sure how that would work with the pull mechanic... but I love the idea of how it builds on the relationships between the characters



Okay, that's cool. Let me ask you this: is there a mechanic for betraying that trust?

Without a betrayal mechanic, a simple way to do this would look like this:

For high tension situations in which an acting character has to rely on other character(s)--much like your lockpick with the lookout situation--inject an extra pull for what the acting character is relying on the other character(s) for. In the lockpick/lookout example, the lockpicker would have to pull twice: once to pick the lock and once keep a weathered eye out for dangers.
If at least one of the other players says that the acting player can trust him or her, then they don't have to make that extra pull. _*But...*_
If the tower falls, the trusted character shares the acting character's fate.

How does that sound? I know it doesn't exactly model what you're describing, but I think it would be fun. If you wanted to include a betrayal element, you could add the following between steps 2 and 3:

The acting player can decide whether their character wants to actually trust the character that offered the trust.
After the acting player has pulled but before the block is placed on top of the tower, the trusted character's player can call for a betrayal. In the fiction this doesn't have to be a big thing. In the lockpick example, it could be something as simple as the lockpicker finishing with the lock and turning to find the trusted character is not actually paying attention--perhaps he was picking his teeth, or tying his shoe, or cleaning his gun.
If betrayed, the acting player must give the block to the betraying player, who can now use it in the place of a future pull--just by placing it on top of the tower when they need to make a pull.
The betrayed player must now make the extra pull as if no one had offered their trust. There is no more trust so if the tower falls, the acting character is alone in his or her fate.
That should start some intraparty conflict.

*Edited to Add:* All of this inspired a blog post that takes what I mentioned above and refines it a little bit.


----------



## Rodrigo Istalindir

Asmor said:
			
		

> Thanks for the suggestions! One of the things I was worried about was that I might be defining the characters a bit too strictly with them. I think you're right about the sexuality thing, I'll replace that with something else. Mostly I threw that in there because I didn't have a good way to tie a couple of the characters together. I was actively trying to create intra-personal conflict.
> 
> I'm a little leery about ditching the occult question, though, because I think that's literally the only clue I have before the game starts that there's anything "funny" going on. Well, that and the sister's question about her father's death being a suicide.




I think you'll find that the more leeway you give the players to define the characters, the more fun they'll have and the more fun you'll have DMing it.  It'll result in events that you couldn't have planned in a million years, and it'll feel 10x better because everyone will know that it happened because of how they played, not according to some script.  My 'win' in Piratecat's Dread game last GenCon is possibly the best experience I've had gaming, and it was all because of a throw-away question on the character sheet.

As for the occult, don't sweat it.  They're gamers; they're inherently paranoid and apt to suspect the supernatural.  They won't be able to help it.


----------



## Asmor

Alright, thanks for the advice!


----------



## scholar

Epidiah Ravachol said:
			
		

> Okay, that's cool. Let me ask you this: is there a mechanic for betraying that trust?
> 
> Without a betrayal mechanic, a simple way to do this would look like this:
> 
> For high tension situations in which an acting character has to rely on other character(s)--much like your lockpick with the lookout situation--inject an extra pull for what the acting character is relying on the other character(s) for. In the lockpick/lookout example, the lockpicker would have to pull twice: once to pick the lock and once keep a weathered eye out for dangers.
> If at least one of the other players says that the acting player can trust him or her, then they don't have to make that extra pull. _*But...*_
> If the tower falls, the trusted character shares the acting character's fate.
> 
> How does that sound? I know it doesn't exactly model what you're describing, but I think it would be fun. If you wanted to include a betrayal element, you could add the following between steps 2 and 3:
> 
> The acting player can decide whether their character wants to actually trust the character that offered the trust.
> After the acting player has pulled but before the block is placed on top of the tower, the trusted character's player can call for a betrayal. In the fiction this doesn't have to be a big thing. In the lockpick example, it could be something as simple as the lockpicker finishing with the lock and turning to find the trusted character is not actually paying attention--perhaps he was picking his teeth, or tying his shoe, or cleaning his gun.
> If betrayed, the acting player must give the block to the betraying player, who can now use it in the place of a future pull--just by placing it on top of the tower when they need to make a pull.
> The betrayed player must now make the extra pull as if no one had offered their trust. There is no more trust so if the tower falls, the acting character is alone in his or her fate.
> That should start some intraparty conflict.




actually, this is a great work for it... I think this might be the mod I go with when I run the cold city game


----------



## Hypersmurf

Epidiah Ravachol said:
			
		

> If betrayed, the acting player must give the block to the betraying player, who can now use it in the place of a future pull--just by placing it on top of the tower when they need to make a pull.




Oooo-ooh.

Sweet.

-Hyp.


----------



## Asmor

Maybe I'm missing something, but what incentive is there to accept the trust? At best, you won't get screwed over and gain no benefit. At worst, you end up having to make two pulls.


----------



## Epidiah Ravachol

Asmor said:
			
		

> Maybe I'm missing something, but what incentive is there to accept the trust? At best, you won't get screwed over and gain no benefit. At worst, you end up having to make two pulls.



This is for situations in which you would normally have to pull at least twice. In the lockpick scenario, the character picking the lock would have two pulls on the table. One for getting the lock open and on for getting it down unseen (let's say). Then another player steps in and says, "Trust me to keep watch for you, so you don't get caught."

Normally in Dread that would me the lockpicker would pull once for picking the lock and the other player would pull once to make sure they aren't discovered. And this might be all you need for your game. In fact, I think that works perfectly fine for the majority of the games. But if you want to focus your game on trust, you can introduce the trust mechanic. Now there is only one pull that needs to be made (because the bond of trust eliminates one of the pulls). That's the bonus: one less pull that needs to be made. At this stage, the only person risking anything is the person offering the trust. Because if that tower falls, they go out with lockpicker.

Those Trust mechanics can be used in games without the Betrayal mechanics, but if you want to also include the Betrayal mechanics, then it definitely gets harder to trust people. Although the betrayal isn't all that bad really. It comes down to one person saying "I'll help you get it done with one less pull." Followed by a, "Psych! I was just kidding. You have to make that pull after all." In the end, the sum total is the same . . .

That makes me think, perhaps I should refine that a bit more. Maybe if someone decides to use the betrayal option, you have to make that pull plus one more to compensate for being betrayed. Hmm . . .

Also, I put this link in the edit, but it might have been missed. I reworded the mechanics a bit and put them on the Dread blog. That might make things a little clearer.


----------



## Asmor

In that case, betrayal doesn't cost anything. Heck, being betrayed helps not just the betrayer, but the betrayee. Example:

Adam needs to make 2 pulls. There are 4 chances for Adam to twitch and knock over the tower.
He pulls a block (1)
puts it on top (2)
pulls a second block (3)
puts it on top (4)

Adam trusts Bill to watch over him. Bill betrays Adam.

Adam needs to make 2 pulls. There are 3 chances for Adam to twitch and knock over the tower.
He pulls a block (1)
Gives it to Bill
Pulls a second block (2)
Puts it on top (3)

So now Adam's got one less chance to screw up and Bill has a "free" pull.

I think I'd make it so that if Bill betrays Adam, whatever Adam was trusting Bill to do is treated as if Adam had elected not to pull a block. In the lock-picking case, someone would find him picking the lock, for example.


----------



## Epidiah Ravachol

Asmor said:
			
		

> I think I'd make it so that if Bill betrays Adam, whatever Adam was trusting Bill to do is treated as if Adam had elected not to pull a block. In the lock-picking case, someone would find him picking the lock, for example.



Beautiful!

That's just perfect. I'm going to officially add that to the blog.


----------



## snarfoogle

Alright, I apologize if this is in the rulebook, as I haven't purchased it, but how do you guys handle insanity? The rules as written would suggest each character pulling upon seeing a horrific sight, but 5 players all pulling, one after another would topple the tower in no time flat, resulting in something perhaps too brutal even for the Cthulhu mythos. But maybe it doesn't work that way. Has anyone using this approach noticed  sanity bending events to be so few and/or late in the session to matter overly?

Group pulls make sense, but what happens if the tower falls? Everyone goes insane? That doesn't work either...


----------



## Epidiah Ravachol

snarfoogle said:
			
		

> Alright, I apologize if this is in the rulebook, as I haven't purchased it, but how do you guys handle insanity? The rules as written would suggest each character pulling upon seeing a horrific sight, but 5 players all pulling, one after another would topple the tower in no time flat, resulting in something perhaps too brutal even for the Cthulhu mythos. But maybe it doesn't work that way. Has anyone using this approach noticed  sanity bending events to be so few and/or late in the session to matter overly?



By way of example let's say you have five characters reading over each other's shoulders trying to study that most unspeakable of Lovecraftian tomes all at once. They reach the end and each of them lays eyes on that which man was never meant to know. And let's say that you, as the host, want to make this a moment to remember. How, then, would _Dread_ help you do this?

Well, you don't have to wait for the tower to fall to inflict madness upon a character. You could tell the players that they're pulling to avoid running away from the text, screaming. Or they could be pulling to avoid being permanently stricken with acute pupaphobia. Or they may have to pull for the courage to gaze upon that final maddening leaf.

Or, if you want to be a real bastard, you could tell them to make all three pulls.

The way _Dread_ works, it then becomes their choice which of those pulls they want to make and which they are willing to suffer the consequences of. If, during this flurry of pulls, the tower should fall, then the character of the player responsible will most likely be driven to lasting and raving madness. I'd suggest some sort of madness that puts the rest of the readers immediately at risk.




> Group pulls make sense, but what happens if the tower falls? Everyone goes insane? That doesn't work either...



In _Dread_ you wouldn't have a group of people pull simultaneously. If, like in the situation above, you would have more than one player pulling, they should always take turns.

Does that address your concerns?


----------



## Seonaid

Rodrigo Istalindir said:
			
		

> And I've pulled people away from the table in similar circumstances to clue them in before hand and give them the chance to shaft the other guy without the him knowing.



That's because you're a RBDM. :win:


----------



## Cassander

I ran my first Dread con game at GenCon this year and I think it went pretty well. The game featured the players as the Village People staying overnight at a YMCA for a promotional tour, with campy hijinks ensuing. The tone was much sillier than a standard Dread game, but the tower seemed to work well for the tone and the questionnaires definitely helped. 

I definitely saw some things I could do better if I run this again but the parts that needed to work did, so I was happy with that.

I also had the pleasure of meeting Epidiah Ravachol, which was very cool.


----------



## egarvue

Glad this thread got bumped up to the top, I would have never heard about this great-sounding game.  I'll throw in my two cents call for a PDF version.

I know that there are several people in my regular game group who would love a tension-filled story game like this one.  As I read this thread, I was mulling over story and plot ideas, and how I could come up with interesting characters.  I was doing a bit of multi-tasking too, punching out my new copy of Kingsport Horror, the Arkham Horror boardgame expansion here in front of the computer when it hit me: I've got all the tools right here to whip up a plot.  

A variety of archtypical characters (8 in this box, lots of others in the original game and other expansions), a whole slew of locations to choose from on the map, heck, loads of monsters to choose from, Ally cards to use as NPC's, and on and on.  Of course its set in the Cthulhu mythos, but there's nothing stopping me from making it more mundane horror if I want to.

I love the idea of Dread as a party game for my group, but I know I'm not the most creative person when it comes to horror plots.  Using something like Arkham Horror to help generate a plot seemed like a good idea.  I'm thinking of pre-generating the questionnaires to fit the plot, but letting them randomly drawing a character card and have the players do their best to answer the questions in light of the character they drew.  

Just for fun, I'm going to try it out while I'm sitting here now.

Location: Mysterious old Kingsport, Maine (the mapboard in front of me)
Sub Locations: The South Shore neighborhood (drew a red card, indicating three sub-locations: The Hall School, the Artists Colony, and Neil's Curiosity Shop)
Monster: Leng Spiders (random draw from the monster chits)
Enemy NPC's: Dr. Herbert West (a familiar name to horror fans, randomly drawn from the Ally deck)
Friendly NPC's: Professor Morgan, Asenath Waite, The Terrible Old Man (also drawn from the deck).  
How did this happen?: A "Crystal of the Elder Things" (draw from the magic items deck)

Ok, it may not be blockbuster material, but its not a bad start for something randomly generated.  Strange deadly spiders from another dimension brought here by an evil doctor using an eldritch crystal; the players must stop them before they overrun the neighborhood.  All the bare bones of a plot are there, and I can already envision some of the character questions.  

Off to by a copy of Jenga tomorrow...


----------



## paradox42

Cassander said:


> I ran my first Dread con game at GenCon this year and I think it went pretty well. The game featured the players as the Village People staying overnight at a YMCA for a promotional tour, with campy hijinks ensuing. The tone was much sillier than a standard Dread game, but the tower seemed to work well for the tone and the questionnaires definitely helped.
> 
> I definitely saw some things I could do better if I run this again but the parts that needed to work did, so I was happy with that.
> 
> I also had the pleasure of meeting Epidiah Ravachol, which was very cool.



I was *in* the Village People game, and it was my first experience with Dread.

Suffice it to say that I plan to get a copy of the book, and a Jenga tower, as soon as funds permit (most likely next month). I can see now why there are so many raves about this game, it really does work to an astounding degree. Just about anything can happen, depending on how the players answer their questions and what the GM feels like allowing. And of course, what happens with the pulls from the tower during play...


----------



## Festivus

I gave in and just ordered a paper copy of Dread.  Damn you all for reminding me how cool this game really is.


----------



## Epidiah Ravachol

Cassander said:


> I also had the pleasure of meeting Epidiah Ravachol, which was very cool.



I can't tell you how cool it was to finally meet all the ENworld people I met at GenCon. And to be a creepy little ninja spying on the late night Dread games on the third floor of the Hyatt.


----------



## Rodrigo Istalindir

Epidiah Ravachol said:


> I can't tell you how cool it was to finally meet all the ENworld people I met at GenCon. And to be a creepy little ninja spying on the late night Dread games on the third floor of the Hyatt.




I stopped by the booth to say 'howdy' and 'thanks' but I missed you.  So, uh, 'Howdy!, and 'Thanks!'.  Glad you got to see a bunch of us loving the hell out of your game.

And while working the ENnies booth Sunday, I got an awesome idea for my next Dread game.


----------



## Epidiah Ravachol

Rodrigo Istalindir said:


> I stopped by the booth to say 'howdy' and 'thanks' but I missed you.  So, uh, 'Howdy!, and 'Thanks!'.  Glad you got to see a bunch of us loving the hell out of your game.
> 
> And while working the ENnies booth Sunday, I got an awesome idea for my next Dread game.



For some reason I feel like I had met you, but I think that's because your name came up a few times. I swear some of these ENworlder Dread scenarios are more well known than the game itself.


----------



## Drammattex

I gave up playing RPGs at cons long ago. However, DREAD was the single most fun experience of this year's Gen Con for me. From what I understand, our game didn't go near as well as the others did, and the GMs apologized for it. 

No apology necessary -- it was a blast, and reminded me what is great and fun in RPGs.


----------



## Mistwell

Piratecat mentioned this game during our Mutants and Masterminds game, and I am happy this thread was bumped so I could read more about it.

Damn, now I have to go buy this, and convince some people to play.  I should have just bought it at the con!


----------



## Cassander

Epidiah Ravachol said:


> For some reason I feel like I had met you, but I think that's because your name came up a few times. I swear some of these ENworlder Dread scenarios are more well known than the game itself.




I know I mentioned Rodrigo when talking to you cause he's the one who first ran Dread for me and got me into the game. That's the Morro Castle (sinking ship) game that he's run a few times at ENWorld gamedays. Sorry you didn't get to meet him, cause he runs a good game of Dread and I think, along with Piratecat, has helped introduce a lot of people to the game.


----------



## Epidiah Ravachol

Mistwell said:


> Damn, now I have to go buy this, and convince some people to play. I should have just bought it at the con!




I recommend purchasing through IPR at the moment. We all but sold out of our copies at GenCon and it'll be a while before the new print run comes in. Fortunately, according to their website, IPR still has 17 left.



Cassander said:


> I know I mentioned Rodrigo when talking to you cause he's the one who first ran Dread for me and got me into the game. That's the Morro Castle (sinking ship) game that he's run a few times at ENWorld gamedays. Sorry you didn't get to meet him, cause he runs a good game of Dread and I think, along with Piratecat, has helped introduce a lot of people to the game.




Ah, that about sounds right. (And now I can place a face to your boardname). I own a debt of gratitude to so many ENworlders for championing this game. Thank you all.


----------



## Hypersmurf

Epidiah Ravachol said:


> I own a debt of gratitude to so many ENworlders for championing this game. Thank you all.




We were playing a game on the Hyatt 3rd floor, run by Queen Dopplepoppolis (DangerGirl! on Circvs Maximvs), and someone passing by saw the Jenga tower.  "Hey, is this Dread?  Cool - I know the guy who wrote this!"

In another session she ran, there was a table of people playing Settlers of Catan adjacent to her table.  The last fifteen or so pulls of the game were all player vs player, and the last five were clearly defying physics.  Two of the Settlers players were saying "Come on, guys, can we just play our game?"  But the other three were completely riveted to the Jenga tower...

-Hyp.


----------



## Kellri

We've been talking about Dread all week over here. Even have a few variants...c'mon over and take a gander.


----------



## Hypersmurf

Kellri said:


> We've been talking about Dread all week over here. Even have a few variants...c'mon over and take a gander.




You might notice that most of the Rah Rah Rah in this thread comes from people who have _played_ Dread.

The Jenga tower might appear at first glance to be gimmicky.  And maybe it is... but it's not a gimmick with no purpose other than to draw attention.

Most resolution systems rely on independent events.  The dice have no memory.  A DC 20 saving throw is as easy or difficult to make at the start of the game or the end of the game.

The Jenga tower, on the other hand, is influenced by every pull that has come before it.  At the start of the game, pulls are easy.  By the end of the game, the tower is unstable, and pulls are much harder.  During the end-game, the tension at a Dread table is visceral and palpable, and that's why the system _works_ for the horror genre.  The mechanic reinforces the genre.

It's easy to read the book and dismiss the tower as gimmicky.  Play a game with a decent table, and that dismissal becomes a whole lot harder.

Can someone game the system, and refuse to make pulls?  Sure - I've seen it done.  And it was done by someone who _doesn't get it_.  And I wouldn't invite him back to play at my table again.  But weighed against that one guy, I've played with twenty people who _did_ get it, and the experiences were fantastic.

Feel free to scoff without understanding why the 'gimmick' works.  Feel free to be the guy who doesn't get it.  I'll continue to play with the people who do, and I'll continue to have those stellar gaming experiences.

-Hyp.


----------



## John Crichton

Kellri said:


> We've been talking about Dread all week over here. Even have a few variants...c'mon over and take a gander.



As Hyp suggests, try a playtest.  You may be pleasantly surprised.  It's entirely possible that you're missing out on some serious fun.  More fun than simple mockery of something misunderstood.

As an RPG fan, I'm sure you can see where I'm coming from.



Hypersmurf said:


> Feel free to scoff without understanding why the 'gimmick' works.  Feel free to be the guy who doesn't get it.  I'll continue to play with the people who do, and I'll continue to have those stellar gaming experiences.



This.



Hypersmurf said:


> Can someone game the system, and refuse to make pulls?  Sure - I've seen it done.  And it was done by someone who _doesn't get it_.  And I wouldn't invite him back to play at my table again.  But weighed against that one guy, I've played with twenty people who _did_ get it, and the experiences were fantastic.



Well said, Hyp.  As one who has played a few times, it's easily the best game to run for horror.  Especially as a one-shot.

The game certainly requires an amount of buy-in and is entirely dependent on roleplaying.  It's not a game where one can "win" like most social, tabletop roleplaying games.


----------



## scholar

Epidiah Ravachol said:


> I can't tell you how cool it was to finally meet all the ENworld people I met at GenCon. And to be a creepy little ninja spying on the late night Dread games on the third floor of the Hyatt.




i didn't ge to meet you, but apparently you talked to my girlfriend while I was spying on a 316 game in he embassy...

so irritated I missed talking to you

she was the one telling you about my random idea for a  dread larp where people have to move a card table holding the tower a few inches to advance down hallways and such

and I'm getting ready to run my first dread game in about a month or so at the albany game day, so wish me luck


----------



## The Grumpy Celt

Piratecat said:


> I just ran my favorite horror game in years...




That all sounds fun.

Wish I could make it to GenCon.


----------



## jdrakeh

Hypersmurf said:


> The Jenga tower might appear at first glance to be gimmicky.  And maybe it is... but it's not a gimmick with no purpose other than to draw attention.




This. As I stated in my initial review, in a niche market that seems to be defined by its self congratulatory fervor at times (often times _digustingly so_, in my opinion) Dread's modesty is incredibly refreshing. The game itself doesn't once claim to reinvent the wheel or openly boast of the Jenga implementation. 

The big thing that discounts the Jenga tower as a mere marketing gimmick, however, is that the Jenga tower actually does something that dice _can't_ easily mimick (namely, organically building tension as play progresses). A completely "gimmick" mechanic doesn't produce results that are any different than those that a straight, traditional, die roll will. 

I guess the best example of this that I can think of is the roulette wheel mechanic in Fastlane, which is simply a binary pass/fail mechanic despite all of its author's claims about it being innovative and brilliant (indeed, he even offers a die roll option in the book that produces the exact same end results as spinning the roulette wheel will). 

That's a gimmick. Dread's Jenga mechanic, however, not only resolves action but also influences the course of game play by impacting _all_ future action that is resolved. I can't think of a single dice roll mechanic that does this, off the top of my head. 



> Can someone game the system, and refuse to make pulls?  Sure - I've seen it done.  And it was done by someone who _doesn't get it_.  And I wouldn't invite him back to play at my table again.  But weighed against that one guy, I've played with twenty people who _did_ get it, and the experiences were fantastic.




I do feel compelled to point out that not pulling bricks isn't really gaming the system, as anytime that you opt not to resolve action by taking a pull, the action in question automatically fails (unless something has changed in the rules since the first printing of Dread). There simpy isn't any benefit in refusing to take pulls, unless your goal is simply to ruin the game for other players.


----------



## Asmor

Just as an aside, it is certainly possible to simulate the jenga tower using dice. Not perfectly, mind you, but you get the same end result: early rolls are easy, later rolls are harder.

Start a dread counter at 1. People roll d% when they'd take a pull. Whenever someone makes a roll, increment the dread counter by 1. If someone rolls equal or under the dread counter, they just toppled the tower and it resets at 1.

There are some pros and cons to this. Big pros are that it's not dependent on manual dexterity, and it's a lot more convenient (no need to worry about bumping table, no need for "specialized equipment" since most gamers should have the dice already, no need to set up the tower).

Of course, the big con here is that the tower just has this visible quality that makes it a visible, palpable threat. I don't think a number written down on some piece of paper is quite going to cut it. Also, I suspect that the d% method might be more likely to knock someone out faster.


----------



## jdrakeh

Asmor said:


> Just as an aside, it is certainly possible to simulate the jenga tower using dice.




Well, in fairness, I didn't say that it wasn't possible, only that I couldn't think of an existing die mechanic that produced the same end result. My point was that this kind of die mechanic is by no means commonplace in the hobby and that the Jenga mechanic actually does bring something completely new to the table in this regard. 

When dice mechanics that effect all future action resolution in a given game become commonplace, _then_ people can call the Jenga mechanic a marketing gimmick in good faith. Until then, the Jenga tower mechanic actually accomplishes something unique by organically staging story pacing via action resolution. 

So far as I'm aware, no other roleplaying game on the market does what Dread does in this regard. _Is_ there another roleplaying game on the market where the resolution of a single action directly affects _all_ subsequent action in the game, ramping up tension, and changing the direction of play as a result?


----------



## Mark

Asmor said:


> Just as an aside, it is certainly possible to simulate the jenga tower using dice.





Roll poorly and the DM sweeps your dice off of the table and onto the floor?


----------



## Xath

The Jenga tower adds so much to a horror game.  In almost every Dread game I've ever played, I've been physically shaking out of nervousness during the later pulls of the tower.  It adds a level of suspense and anticipation that truely adds to the game, wheras I think that a dice mechanic in a horror game pulls people away from the suspense of the situation.


----------



## nerfherder

Hypersmurf said:


> We were playing a game on the Hyatt 3rd floor, run by Queen Dopplepoppolis (DangerGirl! on Circvs Maximvs), and someone passing by saw the Jenga tower.  "Hey, is this Dread?  Cool - I know the guy who wrote this!"






Xath said:


> The Jenga tower adds so much to a horror game.  In almost every Dread game I've ever played, I've been physically shaking out of nervousness during the later pulls of the tower.  It adds a level of suspense and anticipation that truely adds to the game, wheras I think that a dice mechanic in a horror game pulls people away from the suspense of the situation.




I played in DangerGirl's Dread game at Gencon, and it was one of the highlights for me (and I played in 12 other game, none of which were duff).  The tower certainly did add an increasing level of tension through the game, as I think you can see from some of the photos I took.


----------



## Hypersmurf

jdrakeh said:


> There simpy isn't any benefit in refusing to take pulls, unless your goal is simply to ruin the game for other players.




If the player defines success in a horror game as surviving until the end, not pulling can ensure it.  He might survive in a world that's been wiped out by the zombie plague, and the character might perish in the epilogue the moment the game itself ends, but if he is resolved not to exit the game before the end, refusing to pull can ensure it.

I think it's no coincidence that the one person I've seen who approached the game with this mindset is the one person who appeared to have the least amount of fun in any game I've been involved in.  The guys who were told "That's pretty insane - make five pulls", or who had half-hour tower duels against each other?  They're the ones whose chances of exiting the game skyrocket, but they're also the ones who still tell the stories a year later, and (I suspect) will still be telling them in five years.



Xath said:


> The Jenga tower adds so much to a horror game.  In almost every Dread game I've ever played, I've been physically shaking out of nervousness during the later pulls of the tower.  It adds a level of suspense and anticipation that truely adds to the game, wheras I think that a dice mechanic in a horror game pulls people away from the suspense of the situation.




I've found it seems to take about an hour and a half for the tension and shaking to completely work its way out of my chest and shoulders after a Dread game.

I don't get that from a d20.  Dice have provided me with many, many moments of sheer awesome, and the occasional instant of terror... but dice have never given me that sustained anxiety that horror aims to inspire.

-Hyp.


----------



## jdrakeh

Hypersmurf said:


> If the player defines success in a horror game as surviving until the end, not pulling can ensure it.




I suppose that's true, though. . . if a Dread player is refusing to draw, they're effectively refusing to do anything or take any action, which seems to be less about gaming the system than it is about deliberately avoiding expectations of the other players or the game. Exactly like those folks who join D&D groups and then refuse to have their characters partcipate in any adventures. Or folks who join games billed as 'serious' and then create characters with names like "Mister Nuckinfutz" 

I _seriously_ doubt that such attempts to avoid playing Dread by refusing to take action (or pull for action) have anything to do with prioritzing survival as a goal or 'not getting' the game. From experience my own with such folks (while playing Dread, as well as other games), I'm inclined to believe that refusing to play a game in the spirit that it is intended to be played or deliberately bucking the expectations of the group with regard to the game _usually_ has more to do with somebody trying to ruin things for the other players.


----------



## Hypersmurf

jdrakeh said:


> I _seriously_ doubt that such attempts to avoid playing Dread by refusing to take action (or pull for action) have anything to do with prioritzing survival as a goal or 'not getting' the game. From experience my own with such folks (while playing Dread, as well as other games), I'm inclined to believe that refusing to play a game in the spirit that it is intended to be played or deliberately bucking the expectations of the group with regard to the game _usually_ has more to do with somebody trying to ruin things for the other players.




In this case, the player didn't actually refuse to pull _ever_.  But he did do whatever he could to avoid getting into a situation where he would be forced to pull, and if he were offered a pull, he'd generally decline if he thought he could get away with it.

He wasn't out to deliberately ruin everyone's fun; I think he was quite literally afraid of the tower.  And it's the wrong way to approach the game.  He didn't ruin the game (I don't think one player in an otherwise great group _could_ ruin a game with Piratecat at the helm)... but he did, I think, make it less than it could have been.

-Hyp.


----------



## Bubbalicious

Hypersmurf said:


> At the start of the game, pulls are easy.




Yeah, at least if you're not cocky and nonchalant about it!  

Seriously, another beautiful aspect of the tower is in that there are times when the tower looks like it can't possibly still be standing, but is.  Or the times when someone thinks they have made a successful pull, only to have the tower tip over, agonizingly slow, and then crash.  There is also the fact that the pulls you make earlier can make it easier or harder for the later pulls to be successful, depending on how much you "mess up the tower" on your pull!

All this having been said, I think Dread can stretch it's legs a small ways away from the Horror genre.  I have an idea for an action/suspense Dread game that I hope to have ready for '09 Gamedays and GenCon.  It'll be "Blade Runner Dread: Are You a Replicant?"  I've already re-watched the movie (for the first of, probably, 10 or 12 times), and will next read the story on which it was based for the first time in 20 years, and then I think I'll be ready to plot it out!


----------



## Maerdwyn

Glad this thread got revived - Dread looks fantastic for one shot Horror games, which is all I've had time for for quite a while.  Will be picking it up ASAP 

It also occurs to me that the system might work for the style of Paranoia game I like to run - I'll have to experiment.


----------



## Hypersmurf

Maerdwyn said:


> It also occurs to me that the system might work for the style of Paranoia game I like to run - I'll have to experiment.




For Paranoia, players make their pulls blindfolded.

-Hyp.


----------



## Cassander

I'm thinking Dread can work somewhat off genre as well, though you have to make sure your players know what to expect. Some of my players I think expected a bit more horror and a bit more camp.

I am planning on using Dread or at least a Dread blend for some gritty heroic fantasy. Stuff like the Hobbits and the Black Riders kinda thing would seem right for Dread. 

I'd also love to do a Dread campaign at some point. I would think the tension would be really ramped up when you've had your player for more than one session so I think it'd make a great campaign game.


----------



## Epidiah Ravachol

Kellri said:


> We've been talking about Dread all week over here. Even have a few variants...c'mon over and take a gander.



I don't know if the Pundit is getting bored or what, but he seems to be resurrecting a bunch of old news. I had this discussion with him a year ago, when I tried to disabuse him of some of the misconceptions in the review.

In a effort to please him and his crowd over at theRPGSite, I'm feverishly working on a game of cannibalistic desperation and horror using a revolutionary Hungry, Hungry Hippo resolution system. In this one the GM _will_ be able to arbitrarily compel player character death.


----------



## WizarDru

Kellri said:


> We've been talking about Dread all week over here. Even have a few variants...c'mon over and take a gander.




I can't say that I find a lot of value in a review of a game where the reviewer never actually PLAYS the game.  Of course, it also doesn't help when the reviewer enters into the review with a bias, as this one does.  While I haven't played Dread, I do own it...and the best DM I know (that would the bloke who started this thread, btw) highly recommends it.  I think that says something for it, right there.


----------



## ghrezdd

*Dread Adventures*

I have run Dread once using Pirate Cat's adventure The Curious Merder of Artemis Hume as a foundation and it was a blast.  I also played it for the first time at Origins.

I want to run it again, but I am a bit intimidated on coming up with the questionnaire for the pcs.  I would like to see more examples of adventures/questionnaires to get a better feel on how to develop them.  But I am unable to find any on the web.

Any advice or examples would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

PS I also hope that an official adventure compilation will be released some day


----------



## Rodrigo Istalindir

ghrezdd said:


> I have run Dread once using Pirate Cat's adventure The Curious Merder of Artemis Hume as a foundation and it was a blast.  I also played it for the first time at Origins.
> 
> I want to run it again, but I am a bit intimidated on coming up with the questionnaire for the pcs.  I would like to see more examples of adventures/questionnaires to get a better feel on how to develop them.  But I am unable to find any on the web.
> 
> Any advice or examples would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> PS I also hope that an official adventure compilation will be released some day




Try here, for starters:

http://www.circvsmaximvs.com/showthread.php?t=48153


----------



## zen_hydra

*Dread is absolutely brilliant*

I ran Dread this last weekend for the first time and had an absolute blast.

I have owned it for a couple of months, read through it several times, and listened to some game play podcasts of Dread games, but I just didn't appreciate how much the Jenga mechanics influenced the atmosphere of the game until we actually played it.

Half of our group had never played a tabletop rpg before, and they turned out to be great players, who had a lot of fun.  Because of the simplicity of the mechanics, my new players weren't intimidated by an abundance of rules.  They could just enjoy playing their characters.

I can't endorse this game enough.  A++


----------



## Psion

Asmor said:


> Just as an aside, it is certainly possible to simulate the jenga tower using dice. Not perfectly, mind you, but you get the same end result: early rolls are easy, later rolls are harder.
> 
> Start a dread counter at 1. People roll d% when they'd take a pull. Whenever someone makes a roll, increment the dread counter by 1. If someone rolls equal or under the dread counter, they just toppled the tower and it resets at 1.
> 
> There are some pros and cons to this. Big pros are that it's not dependent on manual dexterity, and it's a lot more convenient (no need to worry about bumping table, no need for "specialized equipment" since most gamers should have the dice already, no need to set up the tower).




FWIW, your method sounds vastly superior than using a Jenga tower to me. The whole manual dexterity thing aside, I've always found that any mechanic needing to apply strategy in a manner entirely tangential to a game pulls me out of the game.

Most of the people who have posted here about their positive experiences and who you have seen pictures of are people I know well. Trust me when I say that while they are obviously having a blast, I know I wouldn't.



			
				The Smurf said:
			
		

> Feel free to be the guy who doesn't get it.




That's a bit insulting Hyp. Just because someone enjoys something you do doesn't mean that they have some rift of understanding. It just means that they don't enjoy the same things you do.


----------



## Hypersmurf

Psion said:


> That's a bit insulting Hyp. Just because someone enjoys something you do doesn't mean that they have some rift of understanding. It just means that they don't enjoy the same things you do.




I'm not making the claim that anyone with differing tastes is clueless 

But there are two points I'm getting at:

1. Reading something and experiencing it do not always give the same results.  Consider all the claims that the Monk or Mystic Theurge were broken... until people actually used them in game.

2. If someone approaches a game with the preconception that they will not enjoy it, or with an agenda to demonstrate that it is not fun, it usually becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.  Someone related an anecdote about a player in his new 4E game who deliberately generated a character to be as poorly-optimised as possible, and then played that character in a fashion diametrically opposed to the class's role, and used this as 'evidence' that 4E doesn't work.

"Doctor, Doctor, it hurts when I do this!"
"... then stop doing it."

If you've tried the game and it's not for you, great!  We have different tastes.  It happens.

If you've read the rules, and say "Hey, if someone approaches the game like _this_, it will suck!", then my advice is _don't approach the game like that_.  And maybe it won't suck... because I haven't seen it suck yet.

-Hyp.


----------



## Rodrigo Istalindir

One of the things you lose using a dice mechanic is the 'blink' -- when the player approaches the tower, hems and haws and stares death in the face, and blinks, walking away and accepting failure.   That's been a big part of the games I've been in, and there's no way a die roll can recreate that.


----------



## Hypersmurf

Rodrigo Istalindir said:


> One of the things you lose using a dice mechanic is the 'blink' -- when the player approaches the tower, hems and haws and stares death in the face, and blinks, walking away and accepting failure.   That's been a big part of the games I've been in, and there's no way a die roll can recreate that.




Or, as happened in DG!'s first session at GenCon, where Rel approached the tower, tested a few blocks, hemmed and hawwed and stared death in the face... and then looked Liz in the eye, reached out, and shoved the tower over 

-Hyp.


----------



## Festivus

zen_hydra said:


> I have owned it for a couple of months, read through it several times, and listened to some game play podcasts of Dread games, but I just didn't appreciate how much the Jenga mechanics influenced the atmosphere of the game until we actually played it.




Gameplay podcasts?  Really?  Where?  I would love to listen to one since I haven't had a chance to play it yet.


----------



## Hypersmurf

Festivus said:


> Gameplay podcasts?  Really?  Where?




You should've paid more attention to the market indicators.

-Hyp.


----------



## John Crichton

Hypersmurf said:


> Or, as happened in DG!'s first session at GenCon, where Rel approached the tower, tested a few blocks, hemmed and hawwed and stared death in the face... and then looked Liz in the eye, reached out, and shoved the tower over
> 
> -Hyp.



Both daredevils met that fate.


----------



## Plane Sailing

Hypersmurf said:


> In this case, the player didn't actually refuse to pull _ever_.  But he did do whatever he could to avoid getting into a situation where he would be forced to pull, and if he were offered a pull, he'd generally decline if he thought he could get away with it.
> 
> He wasn't out to deliberately ruin everyone's fun; I think he was quite literally afraid of the tower.  And it's the wrong way to approach the game.  He didn't ruin the game (I don't think one player in an otherwise great group _could_ ruin a game with Piratecat at the helm)... but he did, I think, make it less than it could have been.
> 
> -Hyp.




My first game of Dread was brilliant, but my second game wasn't and it was accidentally my fault 

It is possible to accidentally end up creating (through the questionnaire) a character who has good reasons to end up not taking pulls, and that is what I ended up with. The end result was that by 'playing in character' I ended up avoiding doing things which would probably have been more fun for me (and everyone else).

Certainly if I play Dread again I'll make an effort to include elements of the character that are likely to support a certain amount of reckless or heroic behaviour. Certainly a character who tends to be _proactive _rather than _reactive_.

I mention this experience to indicate that it is possible for someone who isn't a particularly bad role-player to accidentally paint themselves into a corner a bit.

Cheers


----------



## Hypersmurf

Plane Sailing said:


> It is possible to accidentally end up creating (through the questionnaire) a character who has good reasons to end up not taking pulls...




Hmm.

For the most part, though, the tower is a mechanic for the _player_.  

A reckless and heroic character could be played perfectly in character by a tentative player who declines to make pulls.  The reckless and heroic character leaps to wrest the rifle from the maniac's hands; the tentative player elects not to pull from the tower; the reckless and heroic character gets shot in the leg for his trouble.

Similarly, a cautious and reserved character can still yield plenty of opportunities to make pulls.  The confident player will accept those pulls; the tentative player might not; the difference between the two is a cautious and reserved character who is either successful or dead, and a cautious and reserved character who fails at what he cautiously attempts.

My experience with three Dread GMs, all of whom did a great job in my opinion, is that the GM can find reasons for any player to be offered a pull, whether the character is brash or quiet.  Whether or not to accept that pull is up to the player, not the character.

In some ways, it's similar to the decision whether or not to spend an action point in d20.  Whether it's the fighter swan-diving from the back of a griffon to attack the titan with his greataxe (attack roll), or the rogue cowering behind a tree and praying the titan doesn't notice him (stealth check), it's up to the player to decide whether or not to spend the action point that may mean the difference between success or failure.  In Dread, the GM would say to both players "Make a pull to see if the action succeeds".  If the fighter's player elects not to pull, his axe does not bite home.  If the rogue's player elects not to pull, the titan sees him hiding.

The nature of the characters does not dictate whether or not those pulls are offered, nor whether or not the player accepts them.

The way you answer the questions may dictate how you approach the adventure, but it shouldn't prevent you from getting to pull from the tower on a regular basis, if the GM is on the ball.

-Hyp.


----------



## Hypersmurf

Interestingly, in my first Dread game, my character spent the entire endgame cowering under a table clutching a shotgun, while several of the other PCs were off confronting the BBEG.  It seemed the obvious response for that PC, especially once he started having the WWI trench flashbacks.  The only thing I got to shoot was barsoomcore's character.  ("Do you want to pull to avoid that?" "No, I'm cool - being hit with a shotgun sounds about right.")

We didn't actually triumph over the BBEG... until the epilogue, when it was discovered that a throwaway line in a player's questionnaire thwarted its dreams of immortality permanently.  That was a moment of beauty.

But despite 'in character' keeping me away from some of the key scenes, I had a fantastic time in that game.  (There were several barsoomcore moments that were simply poetry.)

In my second game, the character(s) I played was not particularly heroic or reckless or dashing.  But I got to make plenty of pulls (several opposed by myself, as it happens), and shoved the tower down in the endgame.  So heroic and reckless isn't a requirement to have a lot of tower-time.

-Hyp.


----------



## Thornir Alekeg

Asmor said:


> Just as an aside, it is certainly possible to simulate the jenga tower using dice. Not perfectly, mind you, but you get the same end result: early rolls are easy, later rolls are harder.
> 
> Start a dread counter at 1. People roll d% when they'd take a pull. Whenever someone makes a roll, increment the dread counter by 1. If someone rolls equal or under the dread counter, they just toppled the tower and it resets at 1.



  First off, the randomness versus some skill level I think can take people out of the game more.  When you roll a random number on dice that gets you killed, people are more likely to shrug it off  as "bad luck."  When you make that pull that tumbles the tower, people are more likely to think about what they did wrong.  

Also, an increase of 1% for each roll doesn't have the impact on other players the way a nasty pull can.  If you really were interested rolling dice, I would suggest that the % increase is variable; increment the dread counter by the number on the players "ones" die (e.g. if the player roll 24, the % goes up by four.  If they roll 30, it goes up by 10).


----------



## WizarDru

Thornir Alekeg said:


> First off, the randomness versus some skill level I think can take people out of the game more.  When you roll a random number on dice that gets you killed, people are more likely to shrug it off  as "bad luck."  When you make that pull that tumbles the tower, people are more likely to think about what they did wrong.
> 
> Also, an increase of 1% for each roll doesn't have the impact on other players the way a nasty pull can.  If you really were interested rolling dice, I would suggest that the % increase is variable; increment the dread counter by the number on the players "ones" die (e.g. if the player roll 24, the % goes up by four.  If they roll 30, it goes up by 10).




I also don't see dice being able to represent the mechanic of the Tower as combative.  Players may be actively fighting each other, and you can't make a nasty pull to sabotage other players with the dice.  Nor can you 'take one for the team' with the same effect as Rel did, described above.

And as Hyp also mentions, a large part of Dread's appeal is the tension the tower presents to the players.  The tower itself is an influence on the game in the way that a simple mathematical dice equation could never be.

I'm running my first Dread game this weekend and I'll post my results afterwards.  Rodrigo Istandilr inspired the adventure I'll be using when he mentioned the real-life incident that inspired him.  I'm taking it in a different direction (in part as a tribute to one of the people who'll be playing), though.


----------



## Seonaid

I really suggest that, for the doubters, you play in a game by a GM who's run Dread before (if possible). At the VERY least, watch an entire game (and try to snag a couple of character questionnaires to read beforehand). If at that point you decide it's not for you, fine. But as others have said, it's very different reading about it compared to experiencing it. I found myself getting caught up in games I was merely watching at conventions.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

I find this pretty interesting, and I'd really like to try a test session. Though I am not sure I am qualified as a DM or as a player for that game, nor am I certain about my gaming group.

And interesting how a different resolution system can make you think about what they add to the game - I started thinking I might feel a little dirty inside that the "thrill" or tension in Dread comes from pulling the Jenga tower, and basically feels like short-cutting the "story tension". But then - all the tension in D&D also comes largely from the dice, and the real thing is that it is a mix of story and resolution that really creates the effect - if you didn't need to pull or roll a dice for an important dramatic decision, you wouldn't feel the tension...


----------



## Janx

This thread has piqued my interest in Dread.  I've downloaded all the free stuff, and plan to try it out.

I'd like to get a copy of the full game, but I see PDF version still isn't available.  I have a friend who lives by The Source in Mpls. so I may have him try to find a copy.

I have some thoughts on some other folks' concerns about this game.

The game mechanic definitely has an eventual failure wired into it.  The tower WILL collapse at some point, killing somebody (unless the game is short).  A non-fatal reset mechanic might reduce the feel of lethality (perhaps some action consisting of several pulls to reset the tower).

The game is very numberless/statless.  One way to adapt it to an existing RPG, might be to consider that higher skill ranks require fewer pulls to succeed at a task.  Let's say skills run 1-3, invert that number (subtract from 4) and make players do that many pulls to perform a task.  In D20, subtract the skill from the DC and divide by some arbitraty value (to make it a reasonable number of pulls).  Thus, DC15, with 8 ranks gets you a 7, divide by 5, gets you 1.something, making it 2 pulls.  Something simple like that, and you just translated D20 skill mechanics.  Perhaps reset the tower after each encounter (or only after beating big bad bosses).

I saw one complaint that the game favored those with skill at the Jenga.  I say pish-posh, all games favor someone with real world skill.  A tactical genius will do better in a D&D fight than a nincompoop, both with same stats, and same dice rolls fated to them.  A socially adept player will be more persuausive than a rude jerk.  D&D can't counter for real world skills, it can only offer unskilled a chance at the table.

One point that James Ernest of Cheap-ass games made, was that he liked making games that were random, but if you applied some skill, you get would a slight advantage over those who didn't.  The trick was to make it so it wasn't an overwhelming advantage.

Another complaint was that the jenga mechanic broke the verisimilitude of RPGs.  As if reaching for dice, looking up stats is any less jarring.  Short of using real weapons and monsters, any game-based resolution system is going to interrupt the story.  The trick of good game design is to make it brief, and make it low impact.  Jenga induces tension, which is good for horror.  Poker cards feels old west, which is good for western rpgs.

Overall, the game looks great, and I can't wait to try it out on my group.


----------



## Seonaid

Dread has become my favorite game for one-shots and my favorite game for new gamers. It is very easy to get into and not nearly as intimidating as a page of numbers and calculations.

I think that a group of gamers who have never played Dread could get into it given a session or two, so my suggestion of trying it with someone experienced is not entirely a way of eliminating people. It's just the best way to do it (IMO).


----------



## zen_hydra

Festivus said:


> Gameplay podcasts?  Really?  Where?  I would love to listen to one since I haven't had a chance to play it yet.




Here's one.  

The Gamemaster Show - Dread Character Creation / Actual Play / Game Review

Episodes 36 - 40

Their Website

Their RSS Fead

I would stress again, that you really can't fully appreciate the games mechanics without actually playing the game and feeling the tension build as people pull from the Jenga tower.


----------



## Hypersmurf

Janx said:


> The game mechanic definitely has an eventual failure wired into it.  The tower WILL collapse at some point, killing somebody (unless the game is short).




You'd think so, wouldn't you?

I watched the end of DG!'s second session at GenCon.  

Her theme was 'redemption'... and yet one of the players had written a questionnaire yielding a character so amoral and evil that redemption was literally unthinkable for him.  The last fifteen pulls were all player-vs-player, as the other PCs tried to either force him to beg forgiveness, or sacrifice him instead.  The last _five_ pulls were _clearly defying physics_... and the tower simply refused to fall.

Each pull was taking several minutes, with DG! providing a running narration and doing her best to provide extra psychological pressure on top of that created by the unstable tower.  And the entire table, plus a table of strangers adjacent who were supposed to be playing a board game, were riveted to the tower.  Every time there was a sway, you could hear a _hiss_ as about fifteen people sucked in their breath.  And the tower refused to fall.

In the end, Piratecat shoved it over.  I think he couldn't handle the pressure any more 

-Hyp.


----------



## Rodrigo Istalindir

At the last NC Gameday, I ran a Dread game in the morning and played one in the afternoon.  Neither had a fatality.  Both had 40+ pulls from the tower.  It was epic.

In the previous two times I had run the Morro Castle game, I had two fatalities, at nearly identical points time-wise.


----------



## John Crichton

Janx said:


> The game mechanic definitely has an eventual failure wired into it.  The tower WILL collapse at some point, killing somebody (unless the game is short).  A non-fatal reset mechanic might reduce the feel of lethality (perhaps some action consisting of several pulls to reset the tower)./QUOTE]There is a reason it's called *Dread*.


----------



## Janx

I'm more thinking of ways to adapt the idea to other genres, besides horror.  Heck, disabling a PC for the rest of the session is a non-lethal way to deal with tower collapse as well.


----------



## pxacrake

*Halloween*

Hello  All,

I'm new to Dread (have only just recieved the book) and would like to try it out with friends over Halloween.

Can you suggest any pre-made scenario's I could look at.

Cheers, Drew


----------



## Shawn_Kehoe

There are 3 scenarios included in the book itself.

Below are links to the official Dread message boards and my session summary of the third scenario, "Beneath the Mask":

Session Summary:
http://www.tiltingatwindmills.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=2733&highlight=#2733

Post-Mortem:
http://www.tiltingatwindmills.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=2734&highlight=#2734

Since the posts contain major spoilers about a published module, I chose not to copy the contents here.

Shawn


----------



## Nareau

Asmor said:


> Start a dread counter at 1. People roll d% when they'd take a pull.  *They then inject themselves with an EpiPin.*  Whenever someone makes a roll, increment the dread counter by 1. If someone rolls equal or under the dread counter, they just toppled the tower and it resets at 1.



FIFY.

Seriously, the Jenga mechanic is necessary to induce the rush of adrenaline that makes the game great.

I've played in 4 Dread games, and run 4 Dread games.  All of them were a blast.

As for players who decide to sit the game out?  I've had one of them.  I made a couple of efforts to bring him back into the action, but eventually gave up.  Anybody is free to stop playing the game whenever they want; it's their choice to do so.  It was no different than if we were playing D&D and he decided to stay at the inn and get drunk.

I played in Cassander's GenCon YMCA game, and it was _awesome_.  The whole time I kept expecting a psycho-killer to jump out at us, or the ghosts of drowned boys to start haunting us.  But there was none of that--just a lot of screwing around, player-vs-player action, and camp.  And it worked beautifully.  I learned a lot about running a great Dread game that night.

One of the great things about Dread is that horror stories are incredibly easy to write.  Go watch any bad 80's horror flick, and you can write the basic story in 15 minutes.  It doesn't have to be particularly good, either.  So much of the game is written by the players that you have to do much less prep work than you would in just about any other system.

Nareau


----------



## WizarDru

So we had our Dread game this past weekend.  End result: FUN.
I may decide to retool the adventure for convention use.  The only flaws with the game were with my plot, NOT with the players or the game.  I can't see any way that dice could replace the Tower.  Just can't.

The Tower is crucial in setting up tension.  Later in the game, as things went from Bad to Worse, players would pause every time they were given a choice.  Is it worth a pull?  If I pull now, what about later, when I might _REALLY_ need to make a pull?  Can I do this?

And at the later part of the game, EVERY PULL caused the entire table to stop and watch.  No side conversations.  No scanning of rulebooks.  Just tension as every player turned to watch that player make his pull. 

There are things I would do differently, based on experience...but overall I was left with the impression that Dread works as promised.  Reading about it is one thing, playing it is quite another.


----------



## Cassander

On Labor Day, I ran a Dread game for two other people and decided to try out an alternative resolution mechanic, specifically an idea similar to the stones from a bag idea that was thought up by Cerebral Paladin earlier on this thread.

One of my players who had played Dread once before but died early due to some unfortunate pulls was a bit nervous about the tower and asked about alternate mechanics. So I decided to try out the stone method where instead of pulling a block from a tower, you instead pull a stone out of an opaque bag. If it's a good stone (in this case, blue), then your character succeeds. If it's a bad stone (green), your character must leave the game. Everything else is just like normal for Dread.

I decided I wanted two bad stones so that the bag wouldn't have to be restocked when a player pulled a bad stone. The symbolism of a death stone for each character also seemed to fit. So decide on the number of good stones, I built a spread sheet to calculate the cumulative odds of one or both players dying at each number of pulls. I decided on 65 after looking at the numbers, but didn't tell my players what the cumulative odds were to preserve a sense of mystery.

Alas, the stones didn't really work. The failures (the one that happened and the lack of the second) were spaced about as intended and predicted by the the spreadsheet though the players did get a little lucky. But there was no drama surrounding the pulls. My players, even and especially the one a bit uncomfortable with the Jenga tower, told me that they felt like they had no control over their fate and felt detached from the game due to the lack of the tower looming visually. Because of the small and uncontrolled chance of failure, they felt no reason not to pull. Indeed, one often kept going for a pull even before finishing describing his action and I had to caution him to slow down so I could say whether and how many pulls would be appropriate. And when the bad stone was finally pulled, it had little impact, quite a contrast to the tower collapses I've seen in other Dread games. Both players said that a tower would have worked better and wanted to use it for any future games.

I still have my spreadsheet and can upload it if anyone is interested. It's possible the stones might work for other groups and scenarios. I have seen two-player work just fine, though that scenario (fleeing from a dangerous cult, run by Fraisala) seemed better suited for it than the one I used (defending a keep against impossible odds). And I still have some ideas for alternate mechanics, but I think they must be really special and should somehow visually enforce the doom the game brings. Pulling should be a big deal.


----------



## GQuail

Cassander said:


> Alas, the stones didn't really work. The failures (the one that happened and the lack of the second) were spaced about as intended and predicted by the the spreadsheet though the players did get a little lucky. But there was no drama surrounding the pulls. My players, even and especially the one a bit uncomfortable with the Jenga tower, told me that they felt like they had no control over their fate and felt detached from the game due to the lack of the tower looming visually. Because of the small and uncontrolled chance of failure, they felt no reason not to pull. Indeed, one often kept going for a pull even before finishing describing his action and I had to caution him to slow down so I could say whether and how many pulls would be appropriate. And when the bad stone was finally pulled, it had little impact, quite a contrast to the tower collapses I've seen in other Dread games. Both players said that a tower would have worked better and wanted to use it for any future games.




I was very interested to read this.  I enjoyed the Dread game I ran a lot, but when I proposed doing it for another group one guy complained about the tower just not sounding fun to him.  It's interesting to read about someone who tried an alternate mechanic.... only to find it not 
 working out in practice.

You just can't underestimate the tension the tower generates throughout the game, something that a one-off horror game really feeds off of.


----------



## Ginnel

Morrus said:


> Wow - that sounds _really_ fun! I'd love to play at GenCon if there's a space available!
> 
> Dammit. How can I add Jenga to my D&D game next week?




Well I use "Jenga" blocks to mark out my dungeon on the handy squared paper from the back of the 3.5 DMG and use doors from Dragon Quest the game seems to work well


----------



## Cerebral Paladin

Thanks for reporting on how the use of an alternate mechanic didn't work for you, Cassander.  I found your comments very interesting (although also saddening).

The difficult thing is that there is the problem of what to do with the player that doesn't like Jenga.  I've now run Dread (actually a Dread-based game for more heroic play) several times, and every time I've had one player who really didn't want to pull-- not because they were scared the way the game wants, but because they perceived themselves as incompetent at Jenga.  In one case, they were asking if they could allow another player to pull for them, with them bearing the risk but her actually pulling the blocks.

I've found that some additional thought has identified part of the dynamic with why Jenga works so well.  People perceive the tower as being much more likely to fall than it actually is.  I've found both as a player and as a GM that players will often say things like, "there's probably a 50% chance of it falling on the next pull," and then having 6 or 10 more pulls before it falls (if at all).  The frequency with which that seems to happen makes me think that what's going on is that people are systematically overestimating their chances of knocking the tower down-- exactly the pattern you want for a high tension, exciting game.  If you use an alternate mechanism where it is easier to get a feel for how likely you are to fail, people are more likely to accurately think, "I only have a 1-in-10 chance of dying on this pull-- why not go for it?"  If people think death is breathing down their neck ("the tower is as likely to fall as not" or "the tower only has about three pulls left in it"), then you get the right feel (and the right incentives to deliberately knock down the tower as well).


----------



## GQuail

Cerebral Paladin said:


> The difficult thing is that there is the problem of what to do with the player that doesn't like Jenga.  I've now run Dread (actually a Dread-based game for more heroic play) several times, and every time I've had one player who really didn't want to pull-- not because they were scared the way the game wants, but because they perceived themselves as incompetent at Jenga.  In one case, they were asking if they could allow another player to pull for them, with them bearing the risk but her actually pulling the blocks.




The time I ran the game, I ran a few "practice games" of Jenga beforehand, and for weeks before I'd been doing so with any mate who was handy - partly to see how long a tower would come up, and partly to get my players a bit more confident in the game.  

But yeah, I can see how there might be people who say "I just can't do this game" and get frustrated about their lack of skill impacting their enjoyment.  Getting someone else to pull isn't a terrible agreement, since it's still tense when other people pull, but it doesn't sound perfect to me.



Cerebral Paladin said:


> I've found that some additional thought has identified part of the dynamic with why Jenga works so well.  People perceive the tower as being much more likely to fall than it actually is.  I've found both as a player and as a GM that players will often say things like, "there's probably a 50% chance of it falling on the next pull," and then having 6 or 10 more pulls before it falls (if at all).  The frequency with which that seems to happen makes me think that what's going on is that people are systematically overestimating their chances of knocking the tower down-- exactly the pattern you want for a high tension, exciting game.  If you use an alternate mechanism where it is easier to get a feel for how likely you are to fail, people are more likely to accurately think, "I only have a 1-in-10 chance of dying on this pull-- why not go for it?"  If people think death is breathing down their neck ("the tower is as likely to fall as not" or "the tower only has about three pulls left in it"), then you get the right feel (and the right incentives to deliberately knock down the tower as well).




I suppose some people might see this as a flaw, since it makes it harder for players to make informed judgements, but I'm inclined to agree with you.  A flat 25% or 70% success chance is easy to parse in your head and can sometimes demistify things - but the tower looks like it could fall on any pull, even if there's a bunch of safe blocks hiding there.    Even the safest of pulls could go horribly wrong, which keeps every action a lot more dramatic than most dice rolls made.


----------



## Cassander

Cerebral Paladin said:


> In one case, they were asking if they could allow another player to pull for them, with them bearing the risk but her actually pulling the blocks.




When I ran my Dread game at GenCon, I had one player who had never played Dread before and after summarizing the rules, I was asking my players if I had missed anything. Someone brought up a rule that you can ask someone else to pull for you but you tak ethe consequences and there was some discussion about whether this was a standard rule. Some thought it was in the book, some didn't. I checked and couldn't find it, so it's possible it was just posted online somewhere or maybe I missed it.

I think this would be good for people who can't pull due to some sort of disability, but I'm not sure about it for those who think they're not good at pulling. They might just be shy. And it does take away a lot of the visceral feeling. But if someone really just has no manual dexterity and seems to definitely below the standard range of Jenga skill, it seems like the best option, as long as the player is comfortable. 

I think there are a few factors that make the tower so good:

1) The visual. You can see the tower right there in front of you and can watch it sway and lean. You can see how close you are to disaster, and as you say, perhaps overestimate how close it is.

2) The control. The tower puts your characters fate literally in your hands. You are responsible, not some die. If it's just chance, you might throw up your hands and say "Whatever, let's roll the dice...". Having the tower there means you have to go up to the tower and do it.

3). Time and enough skill. Most of the alternate mechanics try to take the manual dexterity and skill out of the game. I think this is doomed to failure. The thing is, without the skill, you just have luck. And if it's pure luck, there's no need to be careful. This means that pulls go too fast. You don't have to think about your pull. You don't have to try different blocks. You don't have to sweat. And without that time, you don't have the tension. Plus you don't have the visceral fear of the tower as you have to interact with it. 

It may be possible to replace the physical skill with mental skill. Something like a chess game could work, in that you'd want to think about your move a lot, but the problem is you can see check mate coming too fast. Still, if you could find a way to replace physical skill with mental skill in a suitable game, you might have something viable, but then you will probably even have a greater skill range than with Jenga.

4) Not too much skill. No one has complete control of the tower. The tower still has some complexity too it and most players fall somewhere toward the center. You won't have a gigantic advantage by being good. With something like chess, you have a tremendous range of skill that'd probably be too much.

5) Fuzziness. This is what Cerebral Paladin brought up. You don't know the odds and will likely (especially new players) overestimate the odds of the tower falling. This, actually, seems to be the biggest advantage of "good"/"experienced" players... they know when they can get away with pulling and are willing to try it when other characters stand in fear. But I myself have made the opposite mistake and been overconfident which lead to me knocking a tower over during what I thought was a safe pull.

6) The falling tower. This kinda goes back to the visual, but I'll emphasize it again. The sound and feel of the tower collapsing emphasizes the importance of the character being removed from the game. It also makes sacrifices look realy dramatic.

There are probably others I've missed, but I think just covering these bases as well as Jenga would be very difficult for another system. I think you'd really have to think about the trade offs and be willing to lose some of these and somehow compensate with something else if you're gonna get something that works. I still have some plans like this, but it does seem like the loss is felt when using something else.


----------



## John Crichton

There was talk down-thread about alternate mechanics using the Dread system.  I just ran a Dread game using a two-tower mechanic.  It went shockingly well.

The players filled out the questionnaires normally and the game began as normal:  Fresh tower and 6 characters, no pre-pulls.  The scenario was set up for more player vs. player action than normal.  It was also set up purely as a one-shot.  It also featured the Ghostbusters.  

I wasn't sure the second tower was even going to come into play.  I first thought of the idea as a way around an early tower knock-down; a backup plan.  Then it mutated.  What would happen if the pull frequency increased (purposely) to get the tower to fall in under two hours?  Now, this didn't HAVE to happen but it was in the back of my mind.  

Turns out that the tower fell between the 90-120 minute mark.  It didn't get terribly high (or at least as high as I've seen previously) but there were a healthy amount of pulls.  So the second tower came into play!  Since the tower was not knocked down intensionally, the character became immediately possessed by forces opposing the players.  The player immediately gained the power listed under the "If you could have one supernatural ability, what would it be?" question of the questionnaire.  The player kept his entire personality but from that point forward had the singular goal of destroying the party, or at least stop them from completing their mission.  There was certainly still an element of self-preservation (the possessor ensured that) but the rest was left up to the character.

The next two pulls attempted by this character were still made from the original (fresh) tower but all subsequent pulls, which included any use of the newfound supernatural ability, would be made from the second tower.  This set up a very interesting dynamic (outlined below) the minute the second tower came into play.  Had I realized it ahead of time, I would have settled on a few more solid numbers of the pre-pulls and who got to make them on each of the towers.

First:  The rest of the (non-possessed) characters would keep looking over a the other tower with the "WTF Face".  Classic.  Kept the spirit of the adventure right on ticking.  

Second:  The moment the possessed characters started making opposed pulls from the second tower with characters using the first tower, the action really started flying.  Could this part get a little meta-gamey?  Yes.  And it did to a degree.  Did it take away from the game?  If it did, it was negligible.

Third:  When things turned bad, they turned bad REALLY quick (same as normal Dread!).  The player vs. player aspect ramped up exactly as I expected it to, but it stayed focused on the game and not for the sake of PvP.  The players did an excellent job of being true to their characters until the time it became _painfully _obvious that their teammates had betrayed them and direct actions had to be taken.

Last rule:  If a character sacrificed himself (knocked over the tower purposely) they were not forced to be possessed.  They were given the option of sacrifice for good.  The one example of this resulted in severely hindering one of the possessed characters for a bit which meant more pulls from the second tower.  At the time, there were 2 possessed characters vs 4 non-possessed characters.

You can start to see how this can skew the numbers.  If you have more people pulling from a tower, the less they can do before failure.  So you get a certain amount of attrition which means ramped up anticipation coupled with a smattering of cockiness from the "possessed" using the second tower.

I'd love to tweak this idea further for future runs.  Thoughts?


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

Never having played or seen Dread, I still find this "twist" interesting.

In a way, it seems to fulfill the typical horror movie cliché - once someone snaps and goes on his killing spree (in whatever fashion - obvious or not) - he tends to become super-effective and succeeds at stuff the rest just doesn't.


----------



## John Crichton

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Never having played or seen Dread, I still find this "twist" interesting.
> 
> In a way, it seems to fulfill the typical horror movie cliché - once someone snaps and goes on his killing spree (in whatever fashion - obvious or not) - he tends to become super-effective and succeeds at stuff the rest just doesn't.



I hadn't thought of that.  Nice.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

John Crichton said:


> I hadn't thought of that.  Nice.




I'm sure it's some kind of trope - all serial killers and psychopaths gain superpowers like invisibility, silence, precognition, regeneration (remember: If you don't check the corpse, the killer is probably not dead.)


----------



## SKyOdin

Okay, for the most part I completely avoid the horror genre at all costs. I have never really gotten into horror. And yet, this thread has made me tempted to find a game of Dread to play in. You can't buy advertising this good.


----------



## John Crichton

SKyOdin said:


> Okay, for the most part I completely avoid the horror genre at all costs. I have never really gotten into horror. And yet, this thread has made me tempted to find a game of Dread to play in. You can't buy advertising this good.



It doesn't even have to be horror.


----------



## Festivus

I am posting here because I can't seem to get a response from Woodelf regarding my dread book order.  Apparently I have been fortunate enough to order post GenCon and thus you folks were out of books.  I replied back to his message but haven't heard anything.  I am really looking forward to getting my hands on the book... someday.

Sorry for posting this here, but I didn't want to wait for my account on your forums to be activated, and I didn't want to send a fifth email to Woodelf (perhaps they are just not getting through?)

Feel free to reply back to me here or via email.


----------



## RangerWickett

I hope to run a Dread game tomorrow night, though some of my players have scoffed at the idea of using Jenga instead of dice. 

I suppose my biggest worry is . . . once a character dies, what's the player to do? How do you handle having unattached players?


----------



## Rodrigo Istalindir

RangerWickett said:


> I hope to run a Dread game tomorrow night, though some of my players have scoffed at the idea of using Jenga instead of dice.
> 
> I suppose my biggest worry is . . . once a character dies, what's the player to do? How do you handle having unattached players?




For one thing, you've got the 'Dead Man Walking' option if someone screws up too early.  Later on, it's no different than any RPG where a character dies -- he sits and waits for the end of the game.  At least in this case, Dread is usually a lot more entertaining as a spectator sport than a traditional RPG.

Part of your responsibility as DM is to pace the pulls so the deaths will most likely occur when you want them to, so keep track of the number of pulls as most of the time you'll see a tower collapse in the late 20s or so.


----------



## Woas

About the dice rolling mechanic for Dread...

I agree that physically pulling the blocks from the tower and all the stress that comes from it is all part of the game no doubt. It's really that 'prop' that makes the game. It's like if you played D&D with a deck of cards instead of rolling dice. It would just change the way the game feels.

However, having that prop is key. An a prop that includes dice which I think would be a neat alternative is to have a die-tower/roller (a tall one so the dice spent enough time to build anxiety as you hear them clink their way down) or a simple die lottery machine could be successful. I can just picture the faces of players as they check their 'character sheets' as the GM calls out his diabolic lottery numbers as they come out of the dice-tower.

But anyway, having played Dread several weeks ago at Albany Gameday and despite the Insano-Deathtrap resets our lovely GM made us do  I must say Dread is probably one of the best 'gameday/Con/gathering' game I've played thus far.


----------



## Hypersmurf

Rodrigo Istalindir said:


> At least in this case, Dread is usually a lot more entertaining as a spectator sport than a traditional RPG.




Yeah - I've been 'involved' in four Dread games.

In one, I didn't die... but I spent the second half of the game with my character cowering under a billiards table hugging a shotgun.  And it was awesome.

In the second, I pushed over the tower with half an hour to go until the end of the game.  And it was awesome.

In the third, I wasn't a player - I just watched the last hour of the game.  And it was awesome.

Only once have I actually been an active participant right to the end (where, once again, I pushed over the tower).  And that was awesome too 

So I personally haven't found that lacking an active PC makes Dread boring 

-Hyp.


----------



## RangerWickett

It went okay. Jumbling Towers is not the same as Jenga.

Voodoo shaman stuck the villain's soul in a berry. (If you watch Adult Swim, pay attention to the bumps this weekend! Berries aren't berries!)

Around 4am, when the tower fell for the fourth time we were too tired to reassemble it and just narrated the end. But that worked too.

Paradox is fun. None of the players got the Day of the Tentacle reference.

I didn't really have much 'dread.' I always got tense when the tower was being used, but some of the players went into "I'm playing Jenga" mode and started giving advice on pieces to move. I should have better enforced the table talk rules.

Still, very fun.


----------



## Epidiah Ravachol

RangerWickett said:


> Voodoo shaman stuck the villain's soul in a berry. (If you watch Adult Swim, pay attention to the bumps this weekend! Berries aren't berries!)



I'm sorry, I just have to geek out about this. So there will be an Adult Swim bump related to a Dread game? Cause that might make it all worthwhile.

Also, I'm sorry that the sense of dread was not so prevalent in your game. Dread, like all horror games, thrives when players (like the stars) are right for it. If players are treating it as they would a genre other than horror--or even just as a game of Jenga--it can lose some of its vitality. Was that the case with your game, or was there someplace where the system wasn't stepping up to help with the sense dread and horror?


----------



## RangerWickett

Epidiah Ravachol said:


> I'm sorry, I just have to geek out about this. So there will be an Adult Swim bump related to a Dread game? Cause that might make it all worthwhile.
> 
> Also, I'm sorry that the sense of dread was not so prevalent in your game. Dread, like all horror games, thrives when players (like the stars) are right for it. If players are treating it as they would a genre other than horror--or even just as a game of Jenga--it can lose some of its vitality. Was that the case with your game, or was there someplace where the system wasn't stepping up to help with the sense dread and horror?




Actually, the berry conversation was in a different game last week, the bumps were made on Friday, and it was just by odd coincidence that berries also played a role in this game. Sorry. 

Part of the problem was certainly that the players weren't really enthusiastic about 'horror.' Part of it was that I am a weenie and let them get away with stuff that was too cinematic. I normally run action adventure fantasy, and I've never even tried to do a horror game before. It was more like, I dunno, Ghostbusters than an actual horror movie.

Plus the game went from 8pm to 5am, one player got ill at 11, and another fell asleep at 3. I'm running the same game again for another group of players this next weekend, and I hope I'll have learned from the experience. 

But people take for ****ing ever to pull pieces sometimes, and it's really hard to actually narrate something interesting while they're doing it. I guess I need to enforce "everything you say is in character" more, but I worry players would get bored waiting around.


----------



## Hypersmurf

RangerWickett said:


> It was more like, I dunno, Ghostbusters than an actual horror movie.




Heh.  I played in a Scooby-Doo Dread game, and watched part of a Breakfast Club Dread game, and there was plenty of creepy to go around along with the comedy 



> But people take for ****ing ever to pull pieces sometimes, and it's really hard to actually narrate something interesting while they're doing it.




Try to gauge the mood of the players.  

I found that sometimes, the GM would tell a player "Make a pull", or even "Make five pulls", and everyone else would be feeling "Okay, but what about _us_?", and the GM would continue on with a "Meanwhile" for another character or group of characters.  The pulling player would let the GM know when he was done, and whether he'd succeeded or bailed.  (If the tower actually falls, of course, everyone notices!)

Other times, the GM would say "Make a pull", and everyone at the table (and often the unrelated players at the _next_ table) would be so riveted on the tower that attempting to carry on with a "Meanwhile" scene would be futile.  It's easy to spot when the table is in this mode - if the tower moves very slightly, and you hear a simultaneous hiss of breath from all sides, they're feeling it...

-Hyp.


----------



## Epidiah Ravachol

RangerWickett said:


> Actually, the berry conversation was in a different game last week, the bumps were made on Friday, and it was just by odd coincidence that berries also played a role in this game. Sorry.



Curses! Now I'll have to start all over again and design a new, sexier game--perhaps using spin the bottle.



> Plus the game went from 8pm to 5am, one player got ill at 11, and another fell asleep at 3. I'm running the same game again for another group of players this next weekend, and I hope I'll have learned from the experience.
> 
> But people take for ****ing ever to pull pieces sometimes, and it's really hard to actually narrate something interesting while they're doing it. I guess I need to enforce "everything you say is in character" more, but I worry players would get bored waiting around.



Whew, a nine hour game would run me a bit loopy, too. When Dread really shines, it can be a bit physically draining--especially in the long haul. The 3 to 4 hour mark is a good place to wrap things up. It's long enough to put the characters in serious risk (which usually happens after about 40 pulls), but not so long that the players start to burn out. 

And you don't have to narrate during the pulls. Hypersmurf's advice is great, there are definitely times when it's best just to hold your breath along with everyone else.


----------



## WizarDru

Epidiah Ravachol said:


> And you don't have to narrate during the pulls. Hypersmurf's advice is great, there are definitely times when it's best just to hold your breath along with everyone else.




That was my experience, certainly.  When I told someone '_take a pull_', there was a pregnant pause and then the person in question would get up and walk hesistantly to the tower.  The rest of the group would watch him/her like a dead man walking and all eyes would focus and breaths would be held as he or she carefully performed the pull.  The tension was palpable.  Anything I said would just distract everyone from it.


----------



## Piratecat

Some of the scariest games I've ever run were Dread games, but I wouldn't want to run more than a four hour game. It wouldn't work nearly as well.


----------



## RangerWickett

The long Halloween game is a tradition of our gaming group. To adjust for the longer game I had a few back-up characters. People still enjoyed it despite the longer period, but I suppose this confirms my suspicion that I wasn't using the system optimally.


----------



## madwabbit

I got a chance to play in one of Eppy's Dread games at Dreamation this past weekend.  A post-apoc zombie scenario -- started off as a pretty straightforward setup, but then we had some nice character hooks and twists. The game rocked, as I fully expected it to... but I will warn anyone who plays in one of Epidiah's games:  he cheats.

[sblock]Just kidding -- no, he doesn't cheat. He used a brand new Jenga Onyx Edition (which I also have), in which several of the blocks had apparently stuck together because the excess varnish hadn't quite worn off).  I was the first to die, and it was hilarious when one of the players noted the blocks were stuck together. Eppy had a look of ... well, dread, actually when he saw that, and was absolutely mortified as well.  Which was awesome!  [/sblock]


----------



## Seonaid

animadversio said:


> [sblock]He used a brand new Jenga Onyx Edition (which I also have), in which several of the blocks had apparently stuck together because the excess varnish hadn't quite worn off).  I was the first to die, and it was hilarious when one of the players noted the blocks were stuck together.[/sblock]



Moral of the story: knock over entire Jenga tower a few times before using it to play.

Got it.


----------



## Rodrigo Istalindir

animadversio said:


> I got a chance to play in one of Eppy's Dread games at Dreamation this past weekend.  A post-apoc zombie scenario -- started off as a pretty straightforward setup, but then we had some nice character hooks and twists. The game rocked, as I fully expected it to... but I will warn anyone who plays in one of Epidiah's games:  he cheats.
> 
> [sblock]Just kidding -- no, he doesn't cheat. He used a brand new Jenga Onyx Edition (which I also have), in which several of the blocks had apparently stuck together because the excess varnish hadn't quite worn off).  I was the first to die, and it was hilarious when one of the players noted the blocks were stuck together. Eppy had a look of ... well, dread, actually when he saw that, and was absolutely mortified as well.  Which was awesome!  [/sblock]




At least you died making a pull this time.  Not, say, while tapping the tower to find the loose blocks while the GM was talking...


----------



## madwabbit

Rodrigo Istalindir said:


> At least you died making a pull this time.  Not, say, while tapping the tower to find the loose blocks while the GM was talking...



I was a rock-star during that pullfest, and you know it -- it was my own arrogance that killed me, and NOT the will of my opponent.


----------



## Epidiah Ravachol

animadversio said:


> ... but I will warn anyone who plays in one of Epidiah's games:  he cheats.



When the game designer does it, that means it's not cheating!


----------



## madwabbit

Epidiah Ravachol said:


> When the game designer does it, that means it's not cheating!



_Touché, _and well-played, sir.


----------



## op1983

Wow, I'm pretty pumped up about this. I read it and told a couple of my players about it. Everyone seems stoked. We have one fellow to likes to fudge dice rolls. I don't guess you can fudge a pull.


----------



## Epidiah Ravachol

animadversio said:


> _Touché, _and well-played, sir.



Besides, I hosted that game while choking on my own blood. That's ambiance well above the call of duty.



op1983 said:


> Wow, I'm pretty pumped up about this. I read it and told a couple of my players about it. Everyone seems stoked. We have one fellow to likes to fudge dice rolls. I don't guess you can fudge a pull.



In most cases, Jenga keeps you honest.


----------



## madwabbit

Epidiah Ravachol said:


> Besides, I hosted that game while choking on my own blood. That's ambiance well above the call of duty.



D'oh! I can't believe I forgot to mention that critical detail.

I'm an idiot, what can I tell you?


----------



## Random221B

Hi there folks!

I just discovered this game, a couple of weeks ago.  I've ordered my copy of it, got my Jenga set, and have my first session of the game scheduled for about a week and a half from now. 

Anyway, I'm hoping there's still some life left in this topic, because I haven't found any postings or discussions about the game anywhere that are newer than a couple of months old.  I'm looking to stimulate a little chat about things.  I've registered for the forums over at the tiltingatwindmills.net site as well, just waiting on an admin over there to approve my membership.

In any case, the first thing I'd like to toss out there is, for my first session I'm going to be running the "Beneath a Metal Sky" scenario from the rulebook and website.  I was just wondering if anyone who has run that particular scenario has any tips, advice, or just thoughts specific to that storyline?

Thanks for your time.

Best,

~~~~Random


----------



## Rodrigo Istalindir

No advice specific to that scenario, sorry.    So far I've run Dread 6 or 7 times (two different scenarios of my own creation).

But, in general, the best piece of advice I can offer is 'stay flexible'.  The players in my games will come up with stuff I never anticipated, and had I stuck to my preconceived notion of how the game should play out, they wouldn't have been nearly as good.

Second, stay out of the way.  Lay out the situation, be descriptive, but let them drive the action.  The sense of uncertaintly is enhanced when they have to decide whether or not an action is worth a pull.  Try and avoid saying 'if you want to do X, you need to make a pull' until they ask.  Obviously, there are times in any game when the players need a nudge, but I find that in Dread, the more the path seems open, the more creative the players will be and the greater the tension.

Third, keep an eye on each player's 'screen time'.  The open-ended nature of a lot of Dread games (see #2) can lead to one player with a lot of initiative dominating play.  Similarly, the emphasis on character over stats can lead to situations where a player that gets off on the acting can hog the spotlight.  When you're not in especially dramatic scenes, make sure you break off when one player has had a bit of attention and turn your focus to someone else.  This is especially crucial if you have new players, or ones that are excessively wary about pulling from the tower.  You need to keep them engaged.

Also, decide ahead of time how lethal you want things to be.  Once you've gotten close to 30 pulls, it gets really risky, and the likelyhood of a death is pretty high.  Pace yourself accordingly, and also be ready with a 'dead man walking' alternative if someone spazzes really early and knocks the tower over really early.

I'll be running two unoffical Dread games at GenCon (after which I'll shelve the MIA scenario), and am already working on a couple ideas for the next one.


----------



## Random221B

I'd love to hear some details on the scenarios you've developed so far.  I'm looking to try to run one-shots of the game on a semi-regular basis, and although occasionally I will have a whole new group of players, and can thus reuse scenarios, more often I will have at least some--if not most or all--of the same players, so I'm going to need additional scenarios.  I like the other ones from the book and the website, but they didn't really *grab* me quite as much as Metal Sky did.

I'm also in the earliest stages of putting together a scenario of my own.  It's a Horror Western, tentatively entitled " The Majestic Seven."  I'll post more details for critique, as I develop them.

Thanks for your time.

~~~~Random


----------



## Piratecat

Random221B said:


> I'm also in the earliest stages of putting together a scenario of my own.  It's a Horror Western, tentatively entitled " The Majestic Seven."  I'll post more details for critique, as I develop them.



Holy crap, yes! I will gladly steal your creativity wholesale plunder this for ideas  offer my opinion as you develop it. Sounds like fun.

Rodrigo offers great advice. My Dread games never go as expected, which is most of the fun. I try to organize them like a 3 act play in terms of pacing, and that seems to work fairly well.


----------



## John Crichton

I've played in both of Rodrigo's scenarios and they were both excellent.  His advice is solid.

I've only run Dread once, but I did the same adventure 4 times.  I think I posted about it earlier in this thread.  The game actually used two towers as I wanted to up the tension and paranoia.  It used all the main characters from the Ghostbusters movie plus Slimer (cartoon version) and Louis Tully, Rick Moranis' character.

It was very interesting to see how each of the players filled out the questionnaires considering that each of the characters was not their own creation.  One of the players filled out his with such interesting stuff that another player used the same sheet for his run.  It was Nareau (who posts here) playing Egon for those interested.

Just to add to Rodrigo's advice:

Don't be afraid to ask for multiple pulls for especially difficult tasks.  Each pull represents success of some sort so just be ready depending on what the player wants to do and compare it to what the character's abilities are based off their questionnaire.  Something that may not cause one character to take a pull at all *may *require two from someone else.

The last thing I can think of was stepping away from the group for a quick one-on-one discussion of things the other players shouldn't know.  I've found that both as a player and a host that it really ramps up the tension to keep that wall in place as opposed to other games like D&D where it's relatively easy to separate character knowledge from player knowledge.  But if you do step away, try and make it quick.  I know that a few times I felt like I was taking too long and when we returned to the room a few of the players were having an out of game discussion that I really should have avoided to keep the momentum going.  That said, it can be a powerful tool if paranoia is what your are aiming for.


----------



## Random221B

Piratecat said:


> Holy crap, yes! I will gladly steal your creativity wholesale plunder this for ideas  offer my opinion as you develop it. Sounds like fun.
> 
> Rodrigo offers great advice. My Dread games never go as expected, which is most of the fun. I try to organize them like a 3 act play in terms of pacing, and that seems to work fairly well.




I am more than happy to have my ideas stolen, er...plundered, er...critiqued.    Seriously, if folks like my ideas enough to swipe them for their own games, I'd be thrilled.  That's part of why I want to put my ideas up here, and get people's input...to make it into a scenario that works not just for me, but for other folks as well.

I posted some stuff about my ideas so far over on the tiltingatwindmills.net message board, but I'm going to go ahead and copy the info here, so folks here can look it over and give me thoughts.

First, a post about the overall premise of the scenario...

The scenario is a horror western, tentatively titled "The Majestic Seven." The plot is inspired by the computer game "Nocturne," the novel "The Haunted Mesa," and Hopi and Mesoamerican mythology. 

The very basic outline is that the PCs are seven people of various western genre archetypes, who are all on a train traveling to (or through) the town of Majestic, NM one night. Just outside of the town, some sort of accident derails the train, and these seven characters are the only survivors. They will be the heroes (and some of them also the victims) of the town of Majestic, thus, the Majestic Seven (obviously a play on the Magnificent Seven.) 

They make their way into the town, and discover it seemingly deserted. Eventually, however, they will discover the possessed/zombified husks of many of the inhabitants, and will need to fight through them to survive. They are the result of attacks by spider-like humanoids from the Hopi "Third World"--a previous world to this one (the "Fourth World") which fell into wickedness and death, and which Hopi myth says the people of this world "climbed up out of" to escape into this new and better world. I am also associating this "Third World" with the Mayan underworld Xibalba, which was supposedly inhabited by a race of beings who worshiped death. The lords of this realm are the Twelve Lords of Xibalba (also known as the Twelve Majestics, in my scenario) and they are ruled by the two greatest of them, known as One Death and Seven Death. For purposes of my scenario, it is Seven Death that is responsible for the troubles the PCs are dealing with. Thus, he is the seventh Majestic...or, Majestic Seven. 

In any case, in the Hopi myths, all life was created by a goddess known as Grandmother Spider (or Spider Grandmother, or simply Spider Woman...but I'm staying away from that last one because it sounds like a superhero.) They initially inhabited the First World, but most of them fell to wickedness and evil, and so Grandmother Spider led only the best of the people up into the second world. This was repeated into the Third World, and finally into the Fourth, with the people undergoing physical transformations with each migration. For purposes of my story, the children of Grandmother Spider looked much more like spiders in the first world, and have gradually become more human with each ascension, thus the inhabitants of the Third World below this one are horrifying spider-humanoid creatures. 

Somehow Seven Death and his Xibalban spider-demons (known as the Anasazi--or "ancient enemy") have found and opened the "sipapu"...the hole through which the people first rose up into the Fourth World from the Third, and are making their way through, trying to open the way for Seven Death to come through and extend his evil domain across the earth. 

So, the escalation for the PCs is, they face and fight the zombie-husks of the townsfolk, who have been implanted with young Anasazi parasites, so they can grow to full form here in this world. Then, they discover and have to fight a couple of full-grown Anasazi--the ones responsible for what happened in the town. Finally, they have to face and stop Seven Death, and close the sipapu. I am thinking that the story will take them through town and out the other side, to a nearby mesa with a recently uncovered ancient Hopi kiva (a Hopi ritual room) where the sipapu is located. I'm thinking maybe a series of caves and tunnels in/under the mesa to get to the kiva, and that's where they deal with the Anasazi. Then through the sipapu, to the Third World, where they confront and (hopefully) defeat Seven Death, back out the sipapu, and close the door behind them. (Or rather...whichever of them survive do.) 

Ok, so that's the overall plan. What I need now is advice and suggestions for breaking it down into acts, and some events to throw into it. Right now I'm thinking "Act I: Zombies..." (set in town, dealing with the husks), "Act II: ...And Spiders..." (set in the desert/badlands and the caves/tunnels, dealing with the Anasazi), "Act III: ...And Gods, Oh My!" (set in the Third World, and dealing with Seven Death.) But I'm not sure if that sounds too big and sprawling, or what. Any thoughts would be appreciated. 

The other thing I need to figure out is exactly what the Anasazi are doing, besides just growing more Anasazi in town, what Seven Death's specific goal and plans are, how the PCs stop him, and how they close the sipapu. 

Anyway, that's it for this post. I would love to hear any thoughts, ideas, or comments. I'm going to follow this up with another post going into what I have so far for the characters. 

Thanks for your time. 

Best, 

~~~~Random


----------



## Random221B

*"Majestic Seven" Characters*

Ok, so here's what I have so far on the PCs. I have decided to give each of them a nickname, and use that--along with their archetype--to identify them. I plan to let the PCs determine in their questionnaires how most of them got their nicknames, and what their real names are. The characters are: 

"Spider Jack" (the Marshal) 
"Angel Eyes" (the Hardened Outlaw) 
"Preacher" (the Gambler/Gunslinger) 
"Devil Kate" (the Soiled Dove) 
"Whistler" (the Indian with a Secret) 
"Sarge" (the Former Slave/Gun-for-Hire) 
"Boston Charlie" (the Easterner with a Secret) 

Since I am likely to have a fairly mixed-gender group, I am planning to be flexible about male/female roles, allowing females into roles they would have been unlikely to be seen in, historically. I assume there are probably historical precedents for women in many of these roles; I just haven't been able to track them down yet. Thus, I am planning to make only three roles gender-specific: "Devil Kate" (female, because I want the archetypal western "soiled dove"), "Preacher" (male, because he was studying to be a minister, fought for the Confederacy in the civil war, and became a noted gambler *and* gunslinger...just seems more of a stretch to fit a female into a role like that, historically), and "Sarge" (because he is an educated former slave who fought for the Union in the civil war, and then made a living as a gun for hire...again, like "Preacher," I could see a female character in any one of those roles, but all of them stretches historical credibility a little farther than I want.) The other four can be either male or female. After all, "Jack" could be short for Jacqueline, and "Charlie" for Charlene or Charlotte. 

Here's what I have so far for each of the characters, that I plan to set up through their questionnaires: 

"Spider Jack" is a U.S. Marshal who has captured "Angel Eyes" and is transporting him for trial. 

"Angel Eyes" is a charming and charismatic--but hardened and ruthless--outlaw, wanted for a number of very serious crimes, but also a bit of a folk hero. A little bit Jesse James, and a little bit Russell Crowe's character from "3:10 to Yuma." 

"Preacher" is from the deep south originally, studied to become a minister, fought for the Confederacy during the Civil War where something terrible happened to cause him to lose his faith. He came out west and fell into all the big sins and vices--gambling, booze, sex...and sometimes killing. He has crossed paths with--and made friends with--one of the other characters in the past. 

"Devil Kate" is the classic western "hooker with a heart of gold," but with a rough and possibly shady past. She once had a serious affair with one of the other characters. She is leaving her old life behind and trying to start anew somewhere. I am thinking she came into some kind of inheritance somehow, and is also running from something she left behind. 

"Whistler" is a Hopi (or possibly Navajo) Indian, raised by their own people, but for some reason has spent much of their adult life living in the white man's world. They fell in with the wrong kind of people, and was once a member of "Angel Eyes' " gang. When they tried to give it up and walk away, "Angel Eyes" had them framed for some terrible crime they didn't commit. Now they're on the run, hoping to clear their name, or at least find some place to settle, not be noticed, and find some kind of peace. 

"Sarge" was a slave before (and possibly during part of) the war, who killed his own master, to escape to the north. (I'm thinking the master was somehow connected to one of the other characters, in a positive way...relative, mentor, friend, etc.) He joined one of the all-black units of the union army and fought in the war, earning the rank of sergeant. After the war, he made his way west to make a life for himself, and fell into a career as a hired gun. Now, he's been doing it for almost 15 years, and is ready to settle down and do something else with his life. 

"Boston Charlie" is a retiring undercover Pinkerton agent from back east, who had some terrible experience during their last assignment, which convinced them to resign and seek a new purpose in life, out west. As a favor to the agency, they are doing one more undercover job for the Pinkertons on the way. 

As you can see, I have more ideas for some of the characters than I do for others. Do folks think I am establishing *too* much about some of these characters? I am trying to leave the hows, whys, and wherefores open for player answers, while providing interesting background hooks, but am I going too far? 

I would love to hear any thoughts. 

Thanks for your time. 

Best, 

~~~~Random


----------



## Piratecat

A few quick suggestions, with more to come. This is a great idea.

- I agree, too big and sprawling. Perhaps they can seal off the opening to the third world without entering?

- Give the players something to fight for. Have several survivors in the town (women, kids, and an old crusty prospector) who beg for their help. Kill at least one of these in order to show that the villains are villainous. Consider having the prospector infected, but in denial. (Alternative, a woman who is feverish and apparently pregnant, but is implanted with a spiderling, is pretty gruesome.)

- Deal with more investigation and growing horror than out-n-out combat, especially through the middle part of the game. 

- Remember that monsters are scarier when the PCs can't really see or classify what they're fighting. Their imagination will do all the hard work for you. Have action occur at night, or perhaps in a dust storm.

Possible act structure:

Act 1: train crash. Initial investigation. Finding of first husk.

Act 2: zombies. Meet panicked, somewhat insane survivors. Begged to enter mines and blow them up - but the explosive is stored outside mine up on the mesa.

Act 3: learn that the explosive has been dragged into mine by *something*. Enter, learn that these tunnels are older than recent mining tunnels. Fight spiders. See horrific entrance to third world in sipapu; their presence alerts Seven Death. Try to get to explosive and detonate it before he and his brood reaches them.


----------



## Rodrigo Istalindir

One pitfall I've noticed with scenarios that are fantastic in nature is that the players will spend a lot of time and effort just trying to figure out how the world works.  Unlike a traditional RPG, where the rules have pretty well defined the 'game physics' and there's likely established setting information, Dread games tend to be made up from scratch.  Resist the temptation to punish the players for not knnowing what their characters would know.  Pulls should be for actions or skill checks, not basic 'how do things work here' type situations.


----------



## Random221B

Piratecat said:


> A few quick suggestions, with more to come. This is a great idea.




Thanks for the suggestions so far.  Glad you like the idea.  It just sort of started coming together for me all at once, so I knew it was the scenario idea I had to pursue first.



Piratecat said:


> - I agree, too big and sprawling. Perhaps they can seal off the opening to the third world without entering?




Yeah, that's what my gut was telling me...it was too big.  Plus, I am thinking now that having them not actually enter the Third World keeps it more mysterious, frightening, and threatening.  Maybe some elements of the Third World are spilling out through the portal, making the tunnels and caves weirder and scarier.

As a side note...do you think tunnels and caves are "western" enough, even if they do extend off an old mine?  Or am I running the risk of the game starting to feel "dungeon-delve"-y?



Piratecat said:


> - Give the players something to fight for. Have several survivors in the town (women, kids, and an old crusty prospector) who beg for their help. Kill at least one of these in order to show that the villains are villainous. Consider having the prospector infected, but in denial. (Alternative, a woman who is feverish and apparently pregnant, but is implanted with a spiderling, is pretty gruesome.)




Had definitely planned to have a few townsfolk still alive, in order to give them people to fight for/protect.  The feverish pregnant woman is inspired, though.  I am definitely thinking I will use that one.  I'm thinking I will also have a kid, who *isn't* slated to die...to cushion the blow, and give them someone to fight for all the way through.  Kids seem a good choice for that kind of thing.  The prospector is an interesting idea, too...



Piratecat said:


> - Deal with more investigation and growing horror than out-n-out combat, especially through the middle part of the game.




Yes, that's what I was thinking.  I figured it would kind of go "Train accident...make their way into town...be creeped out and wonder what's going on...discover the horror, and have a period of chaos and bloodshed fighting the husks...hunker down and defend while trying to figure out/investigate what the hell is going on, while s#!t gets weirder and scarier...figure out enough to head out into the badlands...first direct--but fleeting--encounters with the Anasazi along the way (perhaps in a dust storm, like you suggested)...into the mines/tunnels, serious encounters with the Anasazi...reach the sipapu, confront the horror, try to close it...get away, if there are any survivors.

What I'm not sure about is how they figure out what is going on during the investigative portion.  I have a couple of thoughts--"Whistler" should recognize some things, and be able to relate some of the Hopi mythology, and "Sarge" is very well--but self--educated, so he might have some odd bit of occult lore or info.  But I could really use some suggestions of encounters or avenues of investigation that could help them figure things out.  They certainly don't need to learn or understand the whole background or underlying cosmology.  Just enough to give them an idea of what's happening and how to deal with it.



Piratecat said:


> - Remember that monsters are scarier when the PCs can't really see or classify what they're fighting. Their imagination will do all the hard work for you. Have action occur at night, or perhaps in a dust storm.




I was already intending the whole thing to take place at night.  The dust storm is a really interesting idea too, though.  I may have the weather starting to really act up, due to the intrusion of the Third World through the portal...so they need to cross the badlands from town to the mines/mesa in a wind-and-dust storm.  And that's when the Anasazi will first strike directly at them, before vanishing back into the storm and darkness.  What do you think?



Piratecat said:


> Possible act structure:
> 
> Act 1: train crash. Initial investigation. Finding of first husk.




The train crash should be caused by something that either the Anasazi or the husks did...or possibly by the crazy weather caused by the intrusion of the Third World.  I'm just not sure what, yet.  I don't think I want it to just be like, a downed telegraph line pole or something.  It should be something more shocking, that when the PCs see it, it will make them wonder "how the hell did *that* happen?"

As for the husks...I'm basically picturing a person who looks like they've been fed on by a giant spider...like a shriveled, withered, more mummy-like zombie.  I'm also thinking that the PCs can find either cocooned townsfolk (still time to save them or too late?) and/or possibly empty cocoon husks/pods as well.  My only concern is, that would most likely get the "spider" idea into the players' heads right away, and I'm not sure I want them thinking that quite so soon.  Any thoughts?



Piratecat said:


> Act 2: zombies. Meet panicked, somewhat insane survivors. Begged to enter mines and blow them up - but the explosive is stored outside mine up on the mesa.




Forces them to do more hard traveling, instead of going directly into the mines.  I like it. They can have some pretty terrifying encounters climbing the mesa.  The only question is, when they get to the top and discover that the explosive has been dragged off, they might feel like it was just a pointless, wasted trip.  So they should be able to learn or gain something else useful and important up on the mesa.  Don't know what yet.



Piratecat said:


> Act 3: learn that the explosive has been dragged into mine by *something*. Enter, learn that these tunnels are older than recent mining tunnels. Fight spiders. See horrific entrance to third world in sipapu; their presence alerts Seven Death. Try to get to explosive and detonate it before he and his brood reaches them.




The first question that popped into my mind is, why have the creatures dragged the explosives into the mine?  To hide it and keep it from being used against them?  To use it themselves?  To try to blow *open* the sipapu and complete the release of Seven Death?  Something else?

Overall, I like it.  It's definitely helping point me in the right direction.  Thanks so much.  I look forward to hearing more thoughts.

Best,

~~~~Random


----------



## Hypersmurf

John Crichton said:


> Don't be afraid to ask for multiple pulls for especially difficult tasks.




Heh:

*Piratecat:* So let me get this straight.  You're drunk...
*barsoomcore:* Very.
*Piratecat:* You have a broken ankle...
*barsoomcore:* Right.
*Piratecat:* And you want to head down the steep, slippery rock path...
*barsoomcore:* _Run_ down.  There's no time to lose!
*Piratecat:* Run down.  In the middle of a thunderstorm, in the dark, while brandishing a loaded revolver.
*barsoomcore:* You have summarised my intentions exactly.
*Piratecat:*






  Give me five pulls.

-Hyp.


----------



## Epidiah Ravachol

This is what I love about ENworld: far better advice than I could muster.


----------



## Random221B

Rodrigo Istalindir said:


> One pitfall I've noticed with scenarios that are fantastic in nature is that the players will spend a lot of time and effort just trying to figure out how the world works. Unlike a traditional RPG, where the rules have pretty well defined the 'game physics' and there's likely established setting information, Dread games tend to be made up from scratch. Resist the temptation to punish the players for not knowing what their characters would know. Pulls should be for actions or skill checks, not basic 'how do things work here' type situations.




Oh, absolutely.  That's a really good point, and I didn't intend to punish them for not knowing how things work.  In fact, that's part of why I could use some advice for information source encounters or events, to work in ways for the PCs to find out what is going on, without them feeling stumped or beating their heads against a wall.

Also, the elaborate backstory of the Third World, the rise to the Fourth World, Grandmother Spider, the Twelve Majestic of Xibalba, etc., etc. is really mostly for me, to have a sold grounding in how things work and why things are happening the way they are, so that when the players do things I don't expect, I'll have a solid grounding from which to base how the enemies react.  All the PCs really need to figure out is what's going on, and how to stop it.  If they learn more of the background, that's gravy, but I don't consider it necessary for them to succeed.

As a side note...I got my copy of the book last night, and am reading it in bits and chunks where I can.  So far, liking it every bit as much as I expected to.

Hoping to get more thoughts and suggestions.  I'll be posting more about the characters in the next few days.

Best,

~~~~Random


----------



## Crothian

Rodrigo Istalindir said:


> One pitfall I've noticed with scenarios that are fantastic in nature is that the players will spend a lot of time and effort just trying to figure out how the world works.  Unlike a traditional RPG, where the rules have pretty well defined the 'game physics' and there's likely established setting information, Dread games tend to be made up from scratch.  Resist the temptation to punish the players for not knnowing what their characters would know.  Pulls should be for actions or skill checks, not basic 'how do things work here' type situations.




Ya, I didn't like that much either.  The game is set up so when the action starts there will be plenty of pulls.  It is an easy game to increase tension with small action events.


----------



## Saracenus

Found a copy of Dread at my FLGS (Guardian Games in Portland, OR... hey Angel) and a set of Jenga today, score!

After reading through this thread I am psyched to play or run this game. I have a lot of new players about to join my 4e campaign and I want them to get a taste for role-playing before they get into the roll-playing learning curve of first time D&D players.

Since they are Zombie survival horror fans (movies, TV, board, and video games) that seems to be an easy transition for them <G>.

As for using Dread in my D&D campaign I think I have the answer for my game. I am going to setup a Dread scenario involving an underground temple and a demonic cult that must be stopped. Have everyone answer questions about their hero and then game it out. When we complete the Dread scenario I will say, "You wake in a cold sweat in your tents after having a most vivid nightmare about the forgotten temple that you have been helping excavate." Welcome to a new day and it's time to crack the entrance you help dig out.

What they find inside will be influence by what they did or did not do in the Dread scenario and now the PCs will have a connection to the back story and the BBEV they encounter in the boss battle.

Thank you all who have contributed to this thread. It has been a joyful to see the excitement people feel for this game.


----------



## Rodrigo Istalindir

Ran my Dread MIA scenario another two times at GenCon, and had two different outcomes.  Group 1 shot first and didn't bother to ask questions later, and ended up unknowingly ganking the good guys (although they did succeed at the mission).  Group 2 was  a little more cautious, and managed to 'win' with minimal casualties.  

Man, I love this game.

Also, got to all-too-briefly chat with Epidiah while I was working the ENnies booth.  Wish I'd had more time in the dealer hall to stop by and talk some more.  His new Time & Temp game has me intrigued.


----------



## Nifft

Rodrigo Istalindir said:


> Ran my Dread MIA scenario another two times at GenCon, and had two different outcomes.  Group 1 shot first and didn't bother to ask questions later, and ended up unknowingly ganking the good guys (although they did succeed at the mission).  Group 2 was  a little more cautious, and managed to 'win' with minimal casualties.
> 
> Man, I love this game.
> 
> Also, got to all-too-briefly chat with Epidiah while I was working the ENnies booth.  Wish I'd had more time in the dealer hall to stop by and talk some more.  His new Time & Temp game has me intrigued.



 I approve of this thread necromancy.

Thanks, -- N


----------



## mykelsss

I'm working on a scenario that you can find at:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/260865-dread-isle.html

Tell me what you think!


----------



## Asmor

Nifft said:


> I approve of this thread necromancy.
> 
> Thanks, -- N




Since when does less than a month count as thread necromancy? The post you quoted was posted yesterday (August 19th), and the post before it was July 22nd.

This thread's been moderately active for over two years... I don't think it's ever gone more than a month of two without a new post.


----------



## wedgeski

Since it seems traditional to revive this thread every now and then, let me just say... running my first game of Dread tomorrow. Excited and terrified in equal measure, but so much good advice in this thread, more confident than I was an hour ago.

Unlike many RPG's I've run for the first time, I have absolutely *no* idea what to expect from either myself, the game, the scenario, or the players. That's gotta make for a fun session even before we start.


----------



## John Crichton

wedgeski said:


> Since it seems traditional to revive this thread every now and then, let me just say... running my first game of Dread tomorrow. Excited and terrified in equal measure, but so much good advice in this thread, more confident than I was an hour ago.
> 
> Unlike many RPG's I've run for the first time, I have absolutely *no* idea what to expect from either myself, the game, the scenario, or the players. That's gotta make for a fun session even before we start.



As long as you have at least decent GM improv skills are comfy with your scenario you'll be fine. 

Let us know how it goes!


----------



## Piratecat

Good timing. I'm currently prepping one for the NH game day in May, where the PCs are squabbling couples on a reality show gone bad.


----------



## nerfherder

Piratecat said:


> Good timing. I'm currently prepping one for the NH game day in May, where the PCs are squabbling couples on a reality show gone bad.




Did you ever see "Dead Set"?

Dead Set - E4.com - Zombies, Big Brother, bb, Charlie Brooker, Jamie Winstone, clips, video, info, listings, pictures, gore, horror, exclusive, teaser, trailer, Patrick (Andy Nyman), Riq (Riz Ahmed), Angel (Chizzy Akudolu), Marky (Warren Brown), Alex



> Britain has a big problem. The dead are returning to life and attacking the living. The people they kill get up and kill – and it’s spreading like wildfire. Curiously, there are a few people left in Britain who aren’t worried about any of this – that’s because they’re the remaining contestants in Big Brother. Cocooned in the safety of the Big Brother house, they’re blissfully unaware of the horrific events unfolding outside. Until an eviction night when all hell breaks loose.


----------



## wedgeski

We completed a 4-hour rendition of the "Beneath a Metal Sky" scenario from the rule-book last night. Overall, it seemed to go very well.

(There are spoilers for that scenario in the text below, so beware!)

Over the past few days I surreptitiously polled the players on whether they'd enjoy a sci-fi or modern day, earth-bound scenario, and sci-fi won out. This actually lent me a bit more confidence because I have much more exposure to that genre than any of the alternatives, and went into the game reasonably confident I could improv a decent backdrop.

This turned out to be so, and led to one of the first surprises of the evening: how deep and interesting the universe became simply in the course of playing out the scenario. By the end of the night, between the five of us we'd crafted a half-decent corporate-scumbag future that might not have won many prizes for originality, but could easily have been the starting point for a decent sci-fi RPG. And the beauty of the game is that the characters were already at the core of the game world before we'd even begun.

The players, who I had deliberately kept relatively in the dark about how the game worked, bought into the mechanics almost immediately. The questionnaires were a huge hit, their reactions to the questions hilarious, their answers wonderfully imaginative. Although it sucked up a lot of time before the game started, I'm glad I decided that for our first foray into Dread, we wouldn't fill the questionnaires in ahead of time.

Post-questionnaire, I of course had to take a few notes about things I could weave into the game, and I encouraged the players to leave the room and inform each-other secretly about any prior knowledge they might have about each-other. For this one-off, I wasn't afraid of sowing an atmosphere of distrust, because that was one of the themes I was going for.

Being pressed for time and eager to get things moving, I scrambled to build a couple of scenes around the characters, with more or less success. However, I think I'll be giving this absolutely essential part of the process much more forethought next time around.

I'm still digesting the three hours or so we actually spent roleplaying, more so than for any other session I can remember, but here are a few thoughts in no specific order.

1. If there's one thing I shoot for when I DM, almost to a fault, it's a decent pace and dramatic structure to the game. Like any purely free-form RPG, Dread makes this easy on one hand, but then the tower itself makes it very difficult.

The scenario suggested three dramatic spikes (the first attack, the discovery that the "alien" is in fact human, and the escape). The first one worked beautifully as the culmination of a long walk through dark places, but by the time I was considering where to put the second, it was already too late. They were on the bridge, we'd made about 20 pulls, the players were convinced every pull was going to send the tower over (even though as a long-time Jenga player, I knew this probably wasn't the case), the tension was nicely up, and it was time to start thinking about the denouement.

Conclusion: the tower dictates the dramatic footprint of the game, not the scenario. Obvious in hind-sight, but it took me a bit by surprise on the night.

2. The scenario went completely haywire in the last hour, but all in a good way.

I had described the shuttle on which they had arrived ripping itself from the ship, and although in my head it had acted on a command override from the corporate scumbags monitoring the salvage from afar, the players naturally assumed one of the "aliens" had taken it. Instead of considering the shuttle a dead loss and asking about other ways off the ship (which would have led them to PFC King, the escape pods, and a foreshadowed, desperate escape from the alien horde), they actually decided to *attempt an EVA and get the shuttle back*.

How could I say no to that? They'd become very paranoid about suit integrity as I'd played up the radiation much more than the scenario assumed, and indicated that the atmosphere in the research lab was organic, more like a planetary atmosphere than the recycled air of a starship, so getting to the shuttle amidst the debris of its escape, restarting the systems, potentially discovering the remote command and all the paranoia of the Captain that would have brought with it...

All too good to ignore. And they made it too.

Conclusion: As the host of a free-form story-telling RPG, you may think the game is in your hands, but it isn't. It's almost entirely in the players' hands.

3. As the tower got higher and higher, the possibility of a collapse took on more meaning than a "mere" player death. It had survived over two hours of play (and around 35 pulls), and I detected that a collapse had started to imply "game over" as far as the players were concerned.

This was really difficult to deal with at the time, because I think at least one collapse is a natural assumption for most Dread games. The rest of the team then picks up the pieces (literally!) and moves on with life.

Conclusion: Insert more opportunities than I did for heroic deaths, ensure the players expect/are prepared for at least one collapse before the denouement. Fear the tower, but don't let yourselves get paralyzed by it.

Overall, the game for me was exciting, exhausting, and educational all in one package. It's my first serious step into a more free-form RPG world and while I'm a campaign builder at heart, I can see Dread as a go-to game for one-shot horror. Even old-school Cthulhu, with its streamlined mechanics, seems suddenly clunky and intrusive by comparison.


----------



## malcolypse

i just discovered dread a few weeks ago. 

i ran beneath a metal sky for some friends and it went alarmingly well. everyone seemed to enjoy it, and many of the answers on questionaires actually inspired me to make changes to the story. 

i ran it again a week later and it happened again. people were engrossed with the tower mechanic, people had fun filling out their questionaires, and the game went smoothly and a good time was had by all.


----------



## Asmor

You know, this thread is three years old and still gets resurrected every couple months. I can't help but wonder how many sales of Dread can be traced back to this thing popping up and someone new finding out about it?


----------



## malcolypse

i found my post-game write up for my first dread game, under a metal sky. it's got spoilers in it, so beware if you wanna play in the game. i got told i had to name the ship, because the captain would have been too stoned to bother renaming it, so i looked over his background and decided that he had bought it from one of his "suppliers" and stole the name from my favorite space-rastafarians, from the novel neuromancer.

here goes...


so, the first run of a game of dread is behind me. i consider it to have been a success, and will gleefully run it again, and hopefully play in it as well. my players were julie, norm, jake, and maxwell, the crew of the medical supply ship marcus garvey. 

norm was silus magnum, the ships captain, who was perpetually stoned and used most of the ships hydroponic gardens to grow mountains of pot. he decorated the ship like a bad 1970s (only 600 years out of date)porn set. lots of bead curtains, a disco ball, shag carpeting in his quarters, etc. he had a habit of pumping his ancient music through the shipwide pa system. he had a fear of the dark, so when he lost his eyes in an accident, he had them replaced with cybernetic eyes that could function as flashlights. 

jake was the ship's janitor 2.0, a collection of microscopic lifeforms that shared a hive-mind conciousness and were sad that they had accidentally killed the original owner of their body before they had realized that he was a sentient creature. when watched closely, small lesions can be seen to appear briefly on his skin. (when i read this, i immediately thought of porpoises surfacing in the ocean, so i decided that that was the little buggers inside pulling oxygen directly into their single celled bodies. i also decided that the creatures that would be stalking them in the game were perhaps a distant relative of his species.) he valiantly uses these giant creatures weapons of mass destruction (disinfectant cleaning products and a vibro-mop) to combat any and all potential microscopic dangers to the crew. 

julie was playing saria gomjabbar, an under-qualified ships pilot and navigator who faked her cerifications to get a job off-world and away from her father. luckily, the captain was too stoned to think to do a background check. her hoarding habit meant she kept track of all of her possessions and carried lots of useful gear with her at all times. she volunteered to be responsible for the ships inventory to help assure that she woudl become vital enough that she wouldn't get dumped off-ship if they ever found out she wasn't a liscensed navigator. she had an unnatural fear of staph infection, becoming a cyborg, and having the ship's engineer figure out she was a hack. 

that engineer was comet peirce, played by maxwell. he had a son left back home because space is a dangerous place, proven by the explosion that killed his sister and destroyed his left lung. the cybernetic replacement is an antique that clicks everytime he breathes. in *tick* out *tick* forever. his specialty in inertialess drives was the reason he was qualified to crew this ship, which he feels particularly responsible for, since the captain didn't notice once when the ship didn't go anywhere for a full day. his obsessive personality and stim habit occasionally lead him to do things like take entire systems apart to fix some imagined problem. 

and so it begins... 

the group encounters a large ship floating dead in space, the captain determines that they should salvage the ships reactor so that his demand that no part of his ship ever not be fully lit will be less of a burden on their power supply. 

the ship is on emergency power: no gravity, minimal lighting, minimal life support. the ship has been flooded with low levels of radiation. their space suits are more than up to the challenge, so with air and light for up to two days, they set out to explore the derelict. the first thing they do is discuss quarentine regulations that would require them to wait 48 hours to return to their ship in case of harmful biological elements. disapproving of this plan, the captain overrides the security failsafes so they'll have no trouble hopping through the airlock anytime they please. then they set of into the ship. they get garbled radio transmissions from someone onboard named king, who is apparently in one of the ships cargo bays. they head to the aft of the ship, trying to decide if they want to find this guy or get the ships power back on first. when they come to the door marked aft cargo bay and find alot of darkness beyond it, the captain decides to get the lights on before rescue attempts are to be made. 

they find evidence of a gunbattle here, as well as the guns: big military assault rifles, which they pilfer. after powering up the ship and turning on lights and gravity, the crew is attacked by some large creature that moves very fast and leaves a wound on the janitor that would have been very painful if the microculture living inside used the nerves for more than steering and fast communications. having succeeded in their earlier goals and locking the power on, but with the setback that apparently somebody unhooked their ship from the airlock, the crew heads fore to find mr. king. 

they find king in a closet inside the cargo bay. he has a broken leg and is suffering from prolonged exposure to the radiation, but seems fairly clear-headed and eager to escape. they find a floating cargo skid attatched to what is basically a seqway, that they can use to transport themselves(and especially the injured king) around the ship easier and head fore, to the bridge. on the way, a ceiling panel drops into the center of the skid on top of king's leg, causing him to pass out. on top of the panel stands a horrible creature that looks very much like a man without skin, sharp bone spurs growing through the muscles, and malice in its very pretty green eyes. 

the captain sprays it with machine gun fire and the janitor trips it off the gravskid. it hops up and comes after them just as they race forward at dangerous speeds. the captain takes time to place a careful shot into the things head and it tumbles to a stop behind them. they head back to take a better look at the thing. it may well be a mutated human, but they're all pretty sure that mutations of this scale, especially the no skin part, would kill pretty much anybody before they could become viable killing machines like this guy. the janitor sprays disinfectant on the body and then sends the microalien equivilent of an away party to see what's up with this thing. they come back with several thousand enemy microaliens that they have a miniature world war with over the course of a few seconds to determine who will control this body. the janitor wins. they try to burn the body, but fire suppression systems kick in and prevent this. 

the new plan of attack is to head back to engineering and flood the ship with hard radiation that will cook these microscopic bastards wherever they are and make it safe to maneauver the ship back around to their ship to escape. they get there and as the engineer overrides safety features and prepares the engines to vent, the others provide cover and end up mowing down dozens of the monsters. when they get back out to the gravskid, mr. king isn't there. 

(by this time, the jenga tower that is a central feature of the dread game is getting pretty unstable, and people are giving serious thought to any unnecessay pulls) 

they get to the bridge and determine that the creatures and the janitor don't show up on the ships sensors as living beings. they figure out that the creatures and mr. king are still alive, but they don't know how. they move the ship back around to their ship and dock with it. then they get word from king that he's been dragged into the air vents and he can see the aliens are coming for him and wearing space suits. they set this ship to explode and head back to theirs to find that the critters have turned the quarentine protocols back on, so they have to break into their own ship. they need to power up their ship to vent any creatures on board into space, so they head to their engineering section. as they open the doors, one of the creatures leaps onto their engineer (and the tower, long over due collapses)and start tearing into the seal on his neck with an imprompu shiv. maxwell is no longer among the living. 

this is where some players had to leave, and the session ended, so i wrapped up with a quick run down of events that went something like this: they manage to get the engines powered up with several pulls from the tower, and as they head to the bridge, they get a com from king saying that more aliens are coming and he only has one bullet left and would rather die human and then there's a gunshot. they battle another creature in the bridge, hopfully getting one of them to topple the tower to save the others and the ship. they blow everything that's not nailed down into space and the survivors limp to the nearest port for repairs and to warn all of humanity of the danger they barely averted. 

cue the music as the lights fade and credits roll. 

the end


----------



## Piratecat

Asmor said:


> You know, this thread is three years old and still gets resurrected every couple months. I can't help but wonder how many sales of Dread can be traced back to this thing popping up and someone new finding out about it?



Eppy mentioned to me once that he can tell when the thread resurfaces, because his sales of Dread spike. Good! I love this game; I'm glad other people are playing it too.


----------



## malcolypse

i've got a friend coming to town from two states over next weekend who demands that we eat at a local steak joint that is amazing, and that i run a game of dread for him. he's never played it, just read the description of the system and the above post-game report and talked to a few of the players. i'm exited. he's exited. steak fueled dread for all!!!!


----------



## Rel

Piratecat said:


> Eppy mentioned to me once that he can tell when the thread resurfaces, because his sales of Dread spike. Good! I love this game; I'm glad other people are playing it too.




He lets you call him "Eppy"?!


----------



## Neonchameleon

Piratecat said:


> Eppy mentioned to me once that he can tell when the thread resurfaces, because his sales of Dread spike. Good! I love this game; I'm glad other people are playing it too.



Does the PDF exist yet? (If so there'll be another sale. Or anyone shipping from the UK?)

Edit to explain: The rulebook costs $24.  Shipping costs $29.20.  There are limits to the amount I'll pay for shipping...


----------



## Asmor

Piratecat said:


> Eppy mentioned to me once that he can tell when the thread resurfaces, because his sales of Dread spike. Good! I love this game; I'm glad other people are playing it too.




Ah, that's interesting. Glad to hear it!


----------



## Epidiah Ravachol

This is indeed my favorite thread in all of the Internet. Which probably makes me something of a narcissist, but I can live with that.



Neonchameleon said:


> Does the PDF exist yet? (If so there'll be another sale. Or anyone shipping from the UK?)
> 
> Edit to explain: The rulebook costs $24.  Shipping costs $29.20.  There are limits to the amount I'll pay for shipping...



A PDF does not exist yet, though I have seen one! So perhaps soon?

I believe I answered you in an e-mail, but in case anyone else from across an ocean is reading this, a good way to find Dread in your neighborhood is to check IPR's list of retailers for one near you. There's no guarantee they carry Dread, but they might.


----------



## malcolypse

went to see predators earlier and spent the whole movie mentally comparing the movie to the progression of a game of dread.


----------



## BryonD

Epidiah Ravachol said:


> A PDF does not exist yet, though I have seen one! So perhaps soon?



Please post here if and when a PDF comes up.  I'll buy for certain.


----------



## pedr

Neonchameleon said:


> Does the PDF exist yet? (If so there'll be another sale. Or anyone shipping from the UK?)
> 
> Edit to explain: The rulebook costs $24.  Shipping costs $29.20.  There are limits to the amount I'll pay for shipping...



For indie games in the UK it's hard to beat Leisure Games - pretty sure they'll ship to mainland Europe too. 

Dread, for instance, is £16.99: Leisure Games.Com Limited Dread (Impossible Dream)


----------



## Epidiah Ravachol

I know you're all waiting on news about the PDF. Sorry, I've got none to share at the moment. But I do have this project I've been working on with the fiancée that I think you all might be intrigued by.




(Wow, that cover really goes well with the forum's color scheme.)​
It's a roleplaying board game designed for kids and adults to enjoy together. And of course it's a horror game because, well, deep down I think I just really like scaring kids.

Though, after the first few playtests, I learned very quickly that kids are far better at scaring me.

The game is very much inspired by Dread. You need a Jenga (or reasonable knock-off) to play. It's a haunted house scenario in which you all play a group of teenagers who've all dared each other to spend the night. There are six characters to choose from: an athlete, a gossip, a nerd, a bully, a scaredy-cat, and an artist. Each has there own set of special abilities.

You have a map of the house, some tokens, character sheets and a couple decks of cards. As you go exploring the house, the player to your left plays the host, drawing from a deck of spooky events and describing what horrors you face in each room. Then you have to pull from the tower to avoid fleeing--like the little chicken you are--to the rest of the kids in the house.

Throughout the house there are useful items you can pick up. Some of them have special abilities depending on which monsters you face and which kid has them.

Unlike in Dread, no one dies in this game. If you knock the Tower over, your kid runs out the front door and all the way home to mommy. Which sucks. But then you get to play one of the monster that lives at Dread House, like Eddie Sparkle or Lady Glub Glub here.







We designed it to be played by a wide range of ages. Younger kids are able to just ignore the rules they don't understand or remember, but there's enough depth there to keep older players interested in the game itself.

This whole thing was sort of inspired by a brief conversation I had at GenCon a couple years ago. A guy came to my booth asking if we had any games for kids around ten or eleven years old. I almost recommend Dread to him, because of how simple and easy it is to learn, but I thought better of it because of the inherent violence. I had nothing for him that day. But the idea stuck with me.

So eventually I started gathering kids to test my designs on. And that doesn't sound creepy at all.
. . . 
Anyway, if you've got kids you need to scare, and you happen to be at GenCon, stop by the Design Matters booth (#2100). I'll be at the booth Thursday afternoon and Sunday morning if you want to say hi. I'll be the handsome looking one.

And if you want to play it, I'll be at Games on Demand Saturday morning. That's at the Grand Central Ballroom "B" in the Crowne Plaza Hotel. Again, I'll be the handsome looking one.


----------



## Rel

That sounds mighty cool!

I think I may have just figured out what to get my daughter from GenCon this year...


----------



## Piratecat

I'm absolutely in. So many of my friends' kids want to play D&D with us when we start the game in the evenings; this is a great way to let them occasionally have their own game.


----------



## Mark

Very nice.  I'll spread the word to the gamers I know with kids, too.


----------



## fett527

Why aren't we playing any Dread in the CM Gencon games (formerly known as ENWorld GenCon games)?  I was surprised that it had disappeared this year.

2 Savage Lands rules set games
2 D20ish  (Can't recall what Rel runs Sky Galleons on)
1 CoC as usual
1 Mutants n Masterminds
1 Old Skool OD&D



Does Dread not have the staying power?  I REALLY love it, so I hope not.


----------



## John Crichton

fett527 said:


> Why aren't we playing any Dread in the CM Gencon games (formerly known as ENWorld GenCon games)?  I was surprised that it had disappeared this year.



A few other folks said the same thing at the con.  I know that Queen_D has mentioned a Alice in Wonderland Dread game recently.  I think it's just one of those things where no one was running it from the ENW/CM crowd.


----------



## Rel

I picked up Dread House for my daughter and she is begging to play it already.  It looks really cool.

As for why there were no Dread games, I'm not sure.  I think it's probably just a coincidence or the fact that people wanted to try running stuff that had come out more recently.  Not to worry.  Dread will be around for a long time to come.  My wife is working on two separate Dread games to possibly bring to the WNCGD.


----------



## Plane Sailing

Dread House looks really good. I'll probably look into getting that!


----------



## Rodrigo Istalindir

Rel said:


> I picked up Dread House for my daughter and she is begging to play it already.  It looks really cool.
> 
> As for why there were no Dread games, I'm not sure.  I think it's probably just a coincidence or the fact that people wanted to try running stuff that had come out more recently.  Not to worry.  Dread will be around for a long time to come.  My wife is working on two separate Dread games to possibly bring to the WNCGD.




I picked it up, too.  I''ll likely never play it, but any chance to throw some money at Epidiah is worth it.  I've gotten far more than my money's worth out of Dread.

I've had a Dread game percolating in my head for a while now, but I haven't figured out how to make a couple key plot points flexible enough to handle 'contact with the enemy' and still maintain cohesiveness.

I did run a (mostly) Time & Temp game at GenCon based on the old Simon Hawke Time Wars novels.


----------



## Piratecat

Oh, Dread's here to stay. I only didn't run it because I thought other people were! I have a nifty scenario planned - "Separation Anxiety," with the PCs as six people on a reality TV show about divorcing couples - that I think may be incredibly fun. I'll be running it over the coming year.

House of Dread was the first thing I bought at GenCon. i'm showing it to my niece tonight.


----------



## HandofMystra

I played a pick-up Dread game on Saturday when the BSG game flaked out. We were mind flayers working for the Elder Mind in a Paranoia-style game. It was fun but I had difficulty getting into my character (it is challenging to play a fatalist as an active PC). We only played for an hour and we never even got to the start of our mission.


----------



## Rel

HandofMystra said:


> we never even got to the start of our mission.




Sounds like almost every Paranoia game I've ever heard of.


----------



## Joshua Randall

This is kind of apropos of nothing, but I just need to share:

Bioshock + Dread = ...

Pure win? Epic fail? Only one way to find out!


----------



## Matchstick

I played Dread house Sunday afternoon with my 8 and 7 year old daughters, and we had a good time.  There was a lot of "ooo" and "ahhh" moments with the Jenga tower.  Myself and the eight year old managed to make it to daytime.  The seven year old was a little upset when she tipped the tower and her character ran off, but then she got to play the mummy and it was OK.  And I thought the monsters were going to win, I think the next draw from the tower tipped it (we did it just for fun).  

I have a couple questions.  

- What do you do after the tower tips?  Do you rebuild it in a certain way?  We had enough tower to keep playing with so that's what we did.  
- When moving around in the house do you move in turns or together?  We were split all over the house so we were going in more traditional turns, but it seems like the instructions want players to move in groups.  After the youngest was playing the Mummy the two of us left tried to stay in the same room to avoid the Curse.
- The monster should be able to just Haunt you in whatever room you're in right?  Aggressive monsters will have every character in their room drawing at least two bricks per turn, I would think that would burn through a tower pretty quick!
- I might have missed it but it might be a good idea to add the pennies or markers to indicate a room has been checked for items to the "What you need" list.  

We had a really good time, and the jenga tower was as advertised.  As I mentioned above the ability to come back as a monster was excellent salve for a tipping kid (as I think it was meant to be).  There was a LOT to enjoy in this game!

- The cards are great!  The girls LOVED all the little funny things like what the whispering voice says and the "Hi There" with the smiley face!
- The girls' spooky descriptions got better as we went along.  By halfway through they had dramatic pauses, wide eyes, and spooky voices going!
- The monsters were a big hit.  Personally I liked "Eddie Sparkle" but the girls were big fans of the ghost and the fish lady.  After we were done they went through and read all the cards, characters, and monsters.
- Lots of debate about which characters to play.  Seven year old went for the Athlete, eight went for the Artist, and they gave me the Gossip (I have no idea why).  They were a little baffled as to why anyone would want to be a Bully, I guess they haven't started powergaming yet!

All in all we had a great time plus we can grow with the game because I know there were things we didn't take full advantage of (getting more blocks in our courage stack for one).  

Good stuff!


----------



## WizarDru

Matchstick said:


> I played Dread house Sunday afternoon with my 8 and 7 year old daughters, and we had a good time.  There was a lot of "ooo" and "ahhh" moments with the Jenga tower.  Myself and the eight year old managed to make it to daytime.  The seven year old was a little upset when she tipped the tower and her character ran off, but then she got to play the mummy and it was OK.  And I thought the monsters were going to win, I think the next draw from the tower tipped it (we did it just for fun).




Thanks for the review.  Definitely going to have to add this to the short list of 'Games to Get'.  Wish I could have made Gencon this year, but c'est la vie.  Any game I can play with the whole family is a win...and Dread itself is oodles of fun.


----------



## WizarDru

Hmmm....just found out we'll be doing a 'friends' convention in October.  Perfect chance to run a Dread game.  Now I just have to work one out.  Resident Evil: Dru?  Nah, too obvious.  

Maybe something with The Franklin Expedition a'la Dan Simmon's "The Terror"?  Except the wife has read that book.  I need to think about this.


----------



## John Crichton

Rel said:


> My wife is working on two separate Dread games to possibly bring to the WNCGD.



She's gonna run something?!?!



So sad that I won't be there.


----------



## Epidiah Ravachol

Matchstick said:


> I played Dread house Sunday afternoon with my 8 and 7 year old daughters, and we had a good time.  There was a lot of "ooo" and "ahhh" moments with the Jenga tower.  Myself and the eight year old managed to make it to daytime.  The seven year old was a little upset when she tipped the tower and her character ran off, but then she got to play the mummy and it was OK.  And I thought the monsters were going to win, I think the next draw from the tower tipped it (we did it just for fun).




Hearing news like this really makes my day. 



> I have a couple questions.
> 
> - What do you do after the tower tips?  Do you rebuild it in a certain way?  We had enough tower to keep playing with so that's what we did.



You should completely restack the tower. And then scramble to use some powers to refill the Courage Pile. The monster's powers should get enough pulls going that the tower will get dangerous again real soon.


> - When moving around in the house do you move in turns or together?  We were split all over the house so we were going in more traditional turns, but it seems like the instructions want players to move in groups.  After the youngest was playing the Mummy the two of us left tried to stay in the same room to avoid the Curse.



You move in turns. However, whenever you leave a room that has other teenagers in it, those teenagers have the option to go with you. So you can get into situations where a bunch of kids are all moving together.



> - The monster should be able to just Haunt you in whatever room you're in right?  Aggressive monsters will have every character in their room drawing at least two bricks per turn, I would think that would burn through a tower pretty quick!



Yup! They appear wherever they want at the beginning of their turn and disappear at the end of their turn. The monsters need to get things going fast, because the tower is completely refreshed and you're much closer to the dawn. If you ever get two or three monsters in there, it gets really crazy. Fleeing becomes more and more attractive.



> - I might have missed it but it might be a good idea to add the pennies or markers to indicate a room has been checked for items to the "What you need" list.



I don't have the book in front of me at the moment, but if that's not there, it's definitely going to be there.



> We had a really good time, and the jenga tower was as advertised.  As I mentioned above the ability to come back as a monster was excellent salve for a tipping kid (as I think it was meant to be).  There was a LOT to enjoy in this game!
> 
> - The cards are great!  The girls LOVED all the little funny things like what the whispering voice says and the "Hi There" with the smiley face!
> - The girls' spooky descriptions got better as we went along.  By halfway through they had dramatic pauses, wide eyes, and spooky voices going!
> - The monsters were a big hit.  Personally I liked "Eddie Sparkle" but the girls were big fans of the ghost and the fish lady.  After we were done they went through and read all the cards, characters, and monsters.
> - Lots of debate about which characters to play.  Seven year old went for the Athlete, eight went for the Artist, and they gave me the Gossip (I have no idea why).  They were a little baffled as to why anyone would want to be a Bully, I guess they haven't started powergaming yet!
> 
> All in all we had a great time plus we can grow with the game because I know there were things we didn't take full advantage of (getting more blocks in our courage stack for one).
> 
> Good stuff!



Seriously. Made. My. Day. And Emily's too.

I especially love how your daughters were honing their storytelling skills. And I'm so glad the monsters helped sweeten the bitter taste of the fallen tower.

I think I'm going to be pointing people here to illustrate what the game can do.


----------



## Matchstick

It was kind of funny.  I had pulled in from my ten hour drive back from GenCon not two hours earlier and Dread House was the first thing they wanted to do.  I think the "scariness" made it like a challenge to them.  

Not refreshing the tower kind of sped things up, especially since the Mummy wasn't being terribly aggressive.  Refreshing the tower completely makes a ton more sense, I just wasn't sure and I couldn't remember what the deal was in Dread either.  Needless to say, the tower was looking pretty ragged pretty fast even after the tip.

I didn't have the book in front of me either, but I thought I'd mention the pennies thing.  I remember being surprised at that showing up in the middle of the book, but I may have missed it earlier.

I don't think we fled even once.  We're a bold family apparently.  

I didn't get the move together option out of the instructions.  Again, that could certainly be something I missed.  I do remember being confused at the start of the game about movement and how it works.  

I should have mentioned it, the map was a great source of fun as well.  "Vlad was here" was (and continues to be) an absolute favorite.  We left the spooky cards on the rooms after we explored them, but I kind of felt badly doing so because it covered up the map.  The girls read through all the rooms and planned out how they were going to get to their specific special items.  

They figured out the special links between the monsters and the teens and researched who was best against each monster.  That's a nice mechanism, it adds depth that might not be apparent on first glance at the game.  Same with the character items and the character special abilities.  As mentioned above, we had a good time playing even without using those things (making it easier for the kids), but we'll be able to grow into that depth as we get more familiar with the game.

The ability to get the PDF is EXCELLENT.  I really need to do that.  

Let me know if you need kid reviews, I'll have the girls type some up and mail them to you.


----------



## Epidiah Ravachol

Matchstick said:


> Let me know if you need kid reviews, I'll have the girls type some up and mail them to you.



Wow! That would be beyond awesome.

Also, I should really thank you for the questions. Right now Em and I are finishing up our post-GenCon vacation, but as soon as we get home we're going to assemble the PDF with clarifications. So your questions will hopefully benefit everyone with the game.


----------



## Matchstick

Epidiah Ravachol said:


> Wow! That would be beyond awesome.
> 
> Also, I should really thank you for the questions. Right now Em and I are finishing up our post-GenCon vacation, but as soon as we get home we're going to assemble the PDF with clarifications. So your questions will hopefully benefit everyone with the game.




No problem at all, I enjoy helping and being constructive.  

I'll see what I can do for the reviews.  Expect lots of colors and font changes, they tend to use email's formatting capabilities as much as they can.


----------



## Seonaid

Piratecat said:


> I only didn't run it because I thought other people were! I have a nifty scenario planned - "Separation Anxiety," with the PCs as six people on a reality TV show about divorcing couples - that I think may be incredibly fun.



I thought you already did that! Dibs! 

I also was sad that no Dread was played by my friends and acquaintances at Gen Con. It's an awesome game and it's very non-gamer-friendly.



Thanks, Matchstick, for the review of House of Dread.I got a chance to peruse Rel's copy after he bought it, but none of us had a Jenga tower (or anything similar) so we couldn't actually play. It looks terribly fun!


----------



## RangerWickett

I think House of Dread deserves its own thread, because I only checked on this thread by chance. I figured that by the 9 millionth post there wouldn't be anything new, but House of Dread looks nice.


----------



## Rodrigo Istalindir

Seonaid said:


> I also was sad that no Dread was played by my friends and acquaintances at Gen Con. It's an awesome game and it's very non-gamer-friendly.




So step up and run a game 

But yeah, kind odd in that we've had 5 or 6 different games of Dread in years past.  I ran two last year myself.


----------



## Matchstick

Seonaid said:


> I thought you already did that! Dibs!
> 
> I also was sad that no Dread was played by my friends and acquaintances at Gen Con. It's an awesome game and it's very non-gamer-friendly.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks, Matchstick, for the review of House of Dread.I got a chance to peruse Rel's copy after he bought it, but none of us had a Jenga tower (or anything similar) so we couldn't actually play. It looks terribly fun!




No problem!  As I mentioned I wasn't home two hours and the kids wanted to play.  Now we're talking about writing reviews to send off!


----------



## Rel

Just played with wife and daughter for the first time since coming back from GenCon and it was great fun!

To be honest I had a bit of a hard time groking the rules at first.  After reading each of the sections a couple times I finally got my brain wrapped around it and then it made sense.  Maybe I'm just a little tired today.

Regardless, once we got going we had a lot of fun with it.  Several turns in my daughter knocked the tower down.  She's a pretty good sport most of the time but I was hoping that her youth (she's 9) wasn't going to result in pouting about not being one of the teens anymore.  NOT a problem!  She totally embraced being the Werewolf and was soon growling and snuffling about at every opportunity.  She seemed to particularly relish being able to hide away the stuff we dropped.

I was playing the Athlete and did get to use the Baseball on her, which was great because it bought us a round of not being hounded by her (pardon the pun).  In the end it was a VERY close thing.  We thought there was a very real chance that my wife's pull to Search for one of the last two items was going to topple the tower.  But she made it and Sunrise came at last!

We had a lot of fun with it and it is definitely a good intersection between a board game and lite RPG.  The creative descriptions were a wonderful addition with each of us striving to be as spooky as possible.  I don't think we got good use out of the Spooky Token but we'll try and focus more on that next time, which I'm sure won't be long.

Thanks for such a fun game that we can play with the whole family!  You guys are awesome!


----------



## Epidiah Ravachol

At long last, the Dread PDF!


----------



## Piratecat

I've just created seven character questionnaires for my upcoming Dread game. The premise:

Down in the tropics, sometimes the best group therapy involves millions of viewers! Tune in to the hit reality TV show Separation Anxiety, where unsteady couples work out their marital problems in prime time as they compete for a half million in prizes. The challenges are getting harder. Can you go the distance -- with or without your spouse?​
I have high hopes for this game. One thing I've learned is that it's easiest for me to make a giant list of questions and then cut and paste them into the correct character. I slow down a lot if I try to create one character questionnaire at a time.


----------



## Rel

Piratecat said:


> I've just created seven character questionnaires for my upcoming Dread game. The premise:
> 
> Down in the tropics, sometimes the best group therapy involves millions of viewers! Tune in to the hit reality TV show Separation Anxiety, where unsteady couples work out their marital problems in prime time as they compete for a half million in prizes. The challenges are getting harder. Can you go the distance -- with or without your spouse?​
> I have high hopes for this game. One thing I've learned is that it's easiest for me to make a giant list of questions and then cut and paste them into the correct character. I slow down a lot if I try to create one character questionnaire at a time.




I desire to play this game.


----------



## Rodrigo Istalindir

Piratecat said:


> One thing I've learned is that it's easiest for me to make a giant list of questions and then cut and paste them into the correct character. I slow down a lot if I try to create one character questionnaire at a time.




I'm the exact opposite.  I do the characters linearly, and spend a fair bit of time conceptualizing them in my head.  Which, given the players' inevitably take them in weird/homicidal/psychopathic/sexually conflicted directions, is probably a waste of time.  But it does enhance my enjoyment of the game when I see a character behave in unanticipated by entirely awesome ways.

Working on one now based on the Lost Colony....


----------



## Piratecat

I also picture the "prototype" character in my head, then pick questions from the Giant List of Questions to help suggest it. One of the reasons I love Dread is the variation, though. Run the same game five times and you'll get five very different sets of PCs.


----------



## woodelf

Neonchameleon said:


> Does the PDF exist yet? (If so there'll be another sale. Or anyone shipping from the UK?)
> 
> Edit to explain: The rulebook costs $24.  Shipping costs $29.20.  There are limits to the amount I'll pay for shipping...




1: For anybody who missed it, yes, the PDF exists. Head over to RPGNow (or DriveThruRPG) to get your copy. Or, for a limited time, get it bundled with any of several other horror games, and save some money.

2: Leisure Games in the UK just bought another pile of Dread. I believe they more-or-less keep it in stock, so you might try them.


----------



## Piratecat

For the record: in _Separation Anxiety_ (which turned out to be one of the top 5 Dread games I've run), Epidiah accidentally knocked over the tower 1 1/2 hours into the game. Booyah!

The game was a success, with the group accidentally destroying half of humanity after a very unexpected TPK. I used a "confessional", as in a reality show, where once per scene a player could confess secrets to the "audience" in exchange for avoiding a future pull. 

Eppy, I'm curious about how the mechanics of how I ran the game (how often people pulled, why they pulled) compared to your own style. Any thoughts?


----------



## John Crichton

Piratecat said:


> The game was a success, with the group accidentally destroying half of humanity after a very unexpected TPK.



Oops.


----------



## xipetotec

Played it for the first time two weeks ago ( ran 'Under a Fiull Moon' ) with my kids ( 12, 15, 17 ) and my daughters bf ( 15 ). It went pretty well. I love how the tower creates tension. 

When all was said and done though, I think they prefer Call of Cthulhu with the BRP system. But they did acknowledge that this is a GREAT game to be able to just start up fast with whomever happens to be on-hand. We will be playing it again.


----------



## Epidiah Ravachol

Piratecat said:


> For the record: in _Separation Anxiety_ (which turned out to be one of the top 5 Dread games I've run), Epidiah accidentally knocked over the tower 1 1/2 hours into the game. Booyah!
> 
> The game was a success, with the group accidentally destroying half of humanity after a very unexpected TPK. I used a "confessional", as in a reality show, where once per scene a player could confess secrets to the "audience" in exchange for avoiding a future pull.
> 
> Eppy, I'm curious about how the mechanics of how I ran the game (how often people pulled, why they pulled) compared to your own style. Any thoughts?



First off, I loved the confessional mechanic, and I regret I didn't use it approximately 1 1/2 hours into the game.

I think your pacing was dead on. There's something in particular that happened with that game which I've seen in a few other games that I've been thinking about, and it seems to be a great way to set up a Dread scenario. I don't want to hit any spoilers, so I'll talk about it in abstract. It's the game within the game.

When the tower is young and fresh at the beginning of a game, you want the players to pull with abandon. But just throwing things at them can get tedious. What you want to do is to tempt them into making the pulls. Put little, irresistible bits of story goodness in front of them. What better way to do this than to start your game off with a game.

There was this Pendragon mod for Dread on the Internet that has since seemed to have disappeared. Which is a great sorrow, because it sounded amazing. The part of it I want to highlight is how it began: with a jousting tournament in which all the knights could earn glory and respect by pulling blocks.

So the players, reveling in the stable tower, pull with relish, out doing each other and competing for . . . well for whatever, really. And then when that tower gets just tight enough (or when some shaky-handed game designer knocks it down) the story takes a turn for the dark.

It's not only a lovely way to unsettle a tower, but the palpable change in tone in both the mechanics and the story is so delectable.

I felt your scenario and the way you ran it hit that nail directly on the head.

(And by-the-by, anyone who hasn't played in a Dread game hosted by Piratecat hasn't played Dread.)


----------



## Janx

That's a good gameplay mechanic EC.  probably a fitting concept for any game (and stereotypical setup for many action movies).

I ran one game as a test for 2 players from the quickplay rules off the site.  it was an ad-libbed x-files/alien infection game.


Pre-planning a bunch of things to draw for early on, either as the "bait-n-switch" challenge, or as general investigation towards the main goal (if its known to the players) makes sense.

So, starting the game with Opening Situation with opportunities to draw and win and get bonusues would be easy for the players to take the bait, plus it would allow you to give a basic primer (flush with easy success) on the gist of the game mechanics.

The joust for instance.  The players will want to win.  They think they can easily pull it off, and they will.  So they win the jousting championship.  Just in time for the real problem to reveal itself.

You could make it a "take 1 to 3 pulls to choose your level of success", or some such.

Or break each big task they want to do into 3 pulls.

The point is, as a GM, you pretty much know they will succeed.

if someone does knock it down, use that as the trigger for revealing the big problem (the dragon attacks).

On the rebuild, you can make it seem overwhelming, so they'll do 3-5 pulls to retreat (thus putting some scary back into the rebuilt tower).

For the investigation introduction, you can offer them 1 to 3 pulls to investigate a place or subject.  The more they pull, the juicier and better the result you give them.

I've got to go get the PDF.  I like the core concept of the game, and have been itching to try it more fully.


----------



## Rel

I've been fortunate enough to play in some of Piratecat's Dread games and one thing I've seen him do early in the game is call for pulls, "If you want to notice something..."

I think it is particularly effective if you say, "Make a pull to notice something that nobody else does," and then whichever players make the pull you can take them aside.  I mean who can resist bait like that when the tower is so fresh?!  Likely nobody which means everybody will make the pull and you can reveal the information to the entire group at the table and your tower just got that much more shaky.


----------



## Piratecat

I have two general rules for Dread game design: build in competition or dislike between some of the characters (as well as steady or shifting alliances), and build your plot in three acts. 

The character conflict is because players are far, far more likely to keep making pulls when they're competing between each other than when they're just going up against the GM. I remember one early game where Xath must have made 5 or 6 pulls to wrest a gun from a different PC, and the other player was making just as many! This game of "chicken" is a wonderful thing. If you can encourage this in your questionaire and scenario design, definitely do it.

I build my plot in arcs for pacing reasons. Act One introduces the scenario and raises the stakes, and ends when something genuinely spooky first happens. Act Two is where tension mounts and things get worse; players investigate. Act Three is when they decide to take decisive action that triggers the plot's climax, and things get really scary. Having this structure in the back of my head helps me tremendously when it comes to pacing the four hour game. I can roughly scale the number of pulls accordingly, with things getting worse/out of control at just the right time. 

If people are curious, and if I haven't already done so earlier in this long thread (!), I'm happy to share an example.


----------



## Rel

Piratecat said:


> The character conflict is because players are far, far more likely to keep making pulls when they're competing between each other than when they're just going up against the GM. I remember one early game where Xath must have made 5 or 6 pulls to wrest a gun from a different PC, and the other player was making just as many! This game of "chicken" is a wonderful thing. If you can encourage this in your questionaire and scenario design, definitely do it.




One of my most memorable moments from a Dread game was the first time I played it with you at GenCon.  xrpsuzi and Crothian got into a "pull off" about whether Crothian's character noticed that some of the rest of us were planning to leave the island without them.  It was something like 6 pulls each for them over what was essentially a "spot roll".  I just sat there thinking, "This game is AWESOME!"


----------



## PulpCruciFiction

Piratecat said:


> If people are curious, and if I haven't already done so earlier in this long thread (!), I'm happy to share an example.




I for one would love to see that!  Dread makes a great pickup game, and I think it would be good to have a backlog of ready-to-play scenario outlines to use when the mood strikes.  I've been working on a scenario taking place in sixth century Germany for this Halloween - I'll post an outline and questionnaires here when it's finished.


----------



## Seonaid

It's interesting to me that people are saying it's a good "pickup game," since one of the main ideas behind the questionnaires is to include the characters' backstories in the plot. Out of curiosity, for those who have played on short notice, are people just ignoring this aspect of the game, or are they doing it on the fly?

Edit: And for those who have done both, does it make a difference to the game? How intrinsic is the questionnaire to your game(s)?


----------



## John Crichton

Seonaid said:


> It's interesting to me that people are saying it's a good "pickup game," since one of the main ideas behind the questionnaires is to include the characters' backstories in the plot. Out of curiosity, for those who have played on short notice, are people just ignoring this aspect of the game, or are they doing it on the fly?
> 
> Edit: And for those who have done both, does it make a difference to the game? How intrinsic is the questionnaire to your game(s)?



I agree.  It's a terrible pick-up game.  I spent about 2-3 hours coming up with the idea for my last two Dread characters questionnaires.

I guess it could be played on the fly with very little prep by the players but that takes away a ton of the fun.  That and how much can you care about your character if you don't invest a little?


----------



## Piratecat

I think it's a superb one-shot, but I can't easily picture having folks fill out the questionnaires at the table. Way too slow for my preference.


----------



## Amator

For those of you looking for the Pendragon version for Dread I think I found it here:  Dread - Pendragon.pdf - File Shared from Box.net - Free Online File Storage

Cheers!


----------



## xipetotec

We played our first time last weekend, and filled out questionnaires at the table. It took my players about a half hour.


----------



## PulpCruciFiction

Seonaid said:


> It's interesting to me that people are saying it's a good "pickup game," since one of the main ideas behind the questionnaires is to include the characters' backstories in the plot. Out of curiosity, for those who have played on short notice, are people just ignoring this aspect of the game, or are they doing it on the fly?
> 
> Edit: And for those who have done both, does it make a difference to the game? How intrinsic is the questionnaire to your game(s)?




I guess I should define my terms a bit. By saying it's a good pickup game, I mean that I can spend a few hours designing a scenario and some questionnaires, then pick one up and play it with very little notice to the players. When writing the questionnaires beforehand, you can include elements from the GM side to include in the plot, and then you can integrate some of the players' input into the game on the fly. Also, instead of using the questionnaires to fish for plot elements, you can focus on questions about character relationships, which will drive player conflict and give them something to sink their teeth into and feel that the questionnaires matter to the game without as much improvisation on the GM's part once the session begins. 

Is the game deeper if you have some warning so that the players can expand on the questions and then the GM can work that information into the story? Of course. But I find that the game is still great fun with the players filling out the questionnaires just before play, because the Tower mechanic gets the players' hearts pounding on its own, so that the players are invested in making pulls without having to put as much time into the questionnaires.


----------



## HyrumOWC

Piratecat said:


> If people are curious, and if I haven't already done so earlier in this long thread (!), I'm happy to share an example.




I'd love to see an example. I finally got around to picking this up today, mainly on the strength of this thread and your first post way back when.

Hyrum.


----------



## Rel

Last time I played Dread, it took me about 20 minutes to answer the questionnaire.  My approach to doing them is that I read the first 3 or 4 questions and then put it down.  I picture in my head who the character is that I want to play and when the picture is clear enough I answer the questions the way that the character in my head would do so.  Makes it go very quickly after that.

So, for example, the last character I played was in my wife's game, which was based on Snow White.  The PC's were the Seven Dwarves.  I was Happy.  I read a couple of the questions and then paused for a moment.  Who is my version of Happy?  The answer, of course, is The Dude from The Big Lebowski.  So I answered the rest of the questions as I felt The Dude was.  And it only took me 20 minutes!

My wife said that my answers were generally shorter and, in her opinion, less well thought out than those of the other players.  I'm like, "Hey, man, I'm The Dude!"


----------



## John Crichton

Rel said:


> Last time I played Dread, it took me about 20 minutes to answer the questionnaire.  My approach to doing them is that I read the first 3 or 4 questions and then put it down.  I picture in my head who the character is that I want to play and when the picture is clear enough I answer the questions the way that the character in my head would do so.  Makes it go very quickly after that.
> 
> So, for example, the last character I played was in my wife's game, which was based on Snow White.  The PC's were the Seven Dwarves.  I was Happy.  I read a couple of the questions and then paused for a moment.  Who is my version of Happy?  The answer, of course, is The Dude from The Big Lebowski.  So I answered the rest of the questions as I felt The Dude was.  And it only took me 20 minutes!
> 
> My wife said that my answers were generally shorter and, in her opinion, less well thought out than those of the other players.  I'm like, "Hey, man, I'm The Dude!"



Slacker!


----------



## wedgeski

Experienced Dread-ites can easily fill in the questions in 15-20 mins, but players new to the game can easily freeze up when they see everyone around them writing copiously onto the paper. It's like sitting an exam where you look around and everyone seems to be writing an awful lot *more* than you are. 

In any case, I always emit questionnaires prior to the game these days.


----------



## John Crichton

wedgeski said:


> Experienced Dread-ites can easily fill in the questions in 15-20 mins, but players new to the game can easily freeze up when they see everyone around them writing copiously onto the paper. It's like sitting an exam where you look around and everyone seems to be writing an awful lot *more* than you are.



I've played Dread a healthy number of times and there's no way I could create a character that fast.  Not one that I'd have any investment in, at any rate.  But then again, I'm the first to admit that it can take quite a while for me to find my character's voice.  It usually takes at least 2 full readings of the questions before I can get going.  That and each subsequent question will often make me go back and alter or complete re-write an earlier question.

I'm not saying that one cannot make a good Dread character in 15-20 minutes or there is "one-true-way" but just like anything else you get back what you put into it.


----------



## wedgeski

John Crichton said:


> I'm not saying that one cannot make a good Dread character in 15-20 minutes or there is "one-true-way" but just like anything else you get back what you put into it.



Fair enough.  My personal expectation for any Dread game is that it will last 3-4 hours and the characters only really have meaning in the context of the adventure they were created for. With five players there's only so much characterisation you can do, so when it comes to games I run much more character prep than that is essentially a waste. Of course, that's just our game.


----------



## Seonaid

I can't tell if the discussion veered off intentionally or my intent wasn't clear, but if it wasn't, I wasn't talking about the players at all. I've played in games where the characters were made basically at the table (or a few hours prior) and games where the characters were made days in advance and I've found that the ones made days in advance were better. The players had more time to get into their characters and the GMs had more time to plan quality interactions between the players and the environment. It's awesome when some little thing you mention in your questionnaire comes up in the game.

Of course, an excellent GM can probably do this on the fly every time, but IME it's better to have the questionnaires sent out at least a week in advance so the players can get them back to the GM with at least a few days left before the game.


----------



## John Crichton

wedgeski said:


> Fair enough.  My personal expectation for any Dread game is that it will last 3-4 hours and the characters only really have meaning in the context of the adventure they were created for. With five players there's only so much characterisation you can do, so when it comes to games I run much more character prep than that is essentially a waste. Of course, that's just our game.



I agree about only having so much time to play.  Every game I've played and run has been ~4 hours.  That said, it's never a waste to have more to draw from as a player or giving the host more to work with.  Also, it's only a waste if it was no fun writing or reading the questionnaire.


----------



## Amator

I haven't read all 25 pages, but has anyone recorded a session of Dread?  I'd love to listen to a game and hear how the tension builds.


----------



## Epidiah Ravachol

Amator said:


> For those of you looking for the Pendragon version for Dread I think I found it here:  Dread - Pendragon.pdf - File Shared from Box.net - Free Online File Storage
> 
> Cheers!




That's the one! Another Internet ghost is resurrected.


----------



## Cerebral Paladin

Addressing Seonaid's point, I've played in a Dread game which essentially wasn't customized to the questionnaires at all, and it made the game feel flat.  Sure, there was this werewolf menacing the area or whatever, and there was some tension from the tower, but it lost a lot.

That said, I've had a lot of success running Dread (or technically, a variant "Heroic Dread") with pregenerated characters.  You lose the ability of the players to customize the characters and make them your own, but you gain the ability to have the adventure keyed in to the characters without needing the gap between when the players fill out the questionnaire and when the game runs.  (I agree that a really good GM can do the customization on the fly, but it's much harder, and the consequences of filling out the questionnaire and then having none of it matter are worse.)


----------



## jdeleski

I've been running a Dread game on Halloween for the past 3 years and it's been a hoot! 

The first year, I ran my group through an amusement park scenario where an alien presence was mind-controlling certain employees of the park. The tension built very fast as my players ended up suspecting each other and eventually turned against one another (even though they weren't being mind-controlled). 

Last year the team played as scientists and military men who were fighting to survive an existing zombie infestation. Whenever any player died, they became a zombie and pulled jenga blocks to attack the other players. Only one player survived at the end of the night, and that was because she ran away and hid.

This year, I'm plagiarizing the fun-sounding "War of the Dead" scenario where my players start a pleasant cruise to the Bahamas that quickly devolves into madness. No spoilers here. The scenario is written for Savage Worlds, but converting any game to Dread is dead simple.  I'll start off the scenario with my players pulling numerous jenga blocks when engaging in contests that are held by the cruise team, such as rock wall climbing, gambling, drinking contests, silly dance contest, etc. After the first night, though, things will get very serious. The icing on the cake will be the handouts: I'll go online and print out actual cruise brochures and deck maps. I expect this to be a lot of fun.

J.


----------



## Amator

Hmm...I've never played Dread, but I'm highly intrigued and I'll be at a large Halloween party.  

What's the effective number of players for the average Dread scenario?  I'm thinking of perhaps buying the PDF and running a short game at the Halloween party.  Any particular scenarios out of the book that you'd recommend?  Most of the people at the party have experience with D&D and/or WoD and I'm hoping to keep it 2-3 hours max before everyone is too wasted to play properly.  Thanks.


----------



## John Crichton

Amator said:


> Hmm...I've never played Dread, but I'm highly intrigued and I'll be at a large Halloween party.
> 
> What's the effective number of players for the average Dread scenario?  I'm thinking of perhaps buying the PDF and running a short game at the Halloween party.  Any particular scenarios out of the book that you'd recommend?  Most of the people at the party have experience with D&D and/or WoD and I'm hoping to keep it 2-3 hours max before everyone is too wasted to play properly.  Thanks.



No more than 6.


----------



## Merlin the Tuna

Amator said:


> I haven't read all 25 pages, but has anyone recorded a session of Dread?  I'd love to listen to a game and hear how the tension builds.



This would be _awesome._  I've had Dread for over a year now and still haven't run a game, partly because it's just so intimidating since I have so little DMing under my belt, and what I _have_ done has all been D&D 3.5E or 4E -- so a fair bit different in terms of tone and pacing.  I've been trying to find experienced groups to play with since I got the book, but a recording would be a fantastic substitute.


----------



## Piratecat

Amator said:


> I haven't read all 25 pages, but has anyone recorded a session of Dread?  I'd love to listen to a game and hear how the tension builds.



I have, but only for my own deconstruction later. I wouldn't want to post anything unless the players knew up front that we were recording.



Cerebral Paladin said:


> That said, I've had a lot of success running Dread (or technically, a variant "Heroic Dread") with pregenerated characters.



I don't do this because it removes one of the things I love about the game. When I ran a Dread game a few years back, I must have run it nine times between PegCon, GenCon and NC Game Day. Every single game was a surprise, and every one had me delighted and scrambling, because the characters were so damn different from game to game. I remember three players, all playing the same PC in different slots, comparing their PC and howling with laughter. I really wouldn't want to give that up, particularly when fear ties closely into buy-in.



Amator said:


> What's the effective number of players for the average Dread scenario?



I run fine with seven, but six is a better number.  Be aware that for a 2 hour game, you'll want to pre-pull some blocks or ramp up the terror quickly.


----------



## Cassander

John Crichton said:


> I agree about only having so much time to play.  Every game I've played and run has been ~4 hours.  That said, it's never a waste to have more to draw from as a player or giving the host more to work with.  Also, it's only a waste if it was no fun writing or reading the questionnaire.




Yep. Definitely useful for a one shot, though you never know when there will be a sequel! I was part of a one shot that ended up going three sessions, the last of which was six hours long. From the sound of things, it seems like we might have a spin-off (same world, new characters) next year. 

Anyone else ever do multi-session Dread? 

And for what it's worth, it usually takes me forever to answer as well. I think the longest one was when I wrote 4 pages including all kinds of back story which I weaved in various answers, but even my shorter ones take me forever. It can take awhile to come up with a good idea. I did play one answer-the-questionnaires-at-the-table game, and while it was fun, it was not nearly as rewarding as other ones I've been in.

The best thing about Dread, I think, is that it basically forces character-oriented roleplaying, my preferred gaming style. You pretty much have nothing to do but focus on being in character, so there's less capacity for the story to run roughshod over the characters.


----------



## jdeleski

I agree with PirateCat that the game plays best with roughly 6 players, maybe as much as 8. I've run the game with 6 and 7 players. The mechanics of the game are streamlined, so the pace of the game is quick and has a highly cinematic in feel, so I suppose it would be fine to GM with more players. However, I believe that having more than 6 to 8 players would likely result in split parties, a less tightly-focused story, delays (some players wandering off when it's not their turn), and generally a less satisfactory experience. 

I also would not run a Dread game with pre-generated characters, and always stick to the question-and-answer format that is described in the Dread booklet. In my experience, the players generally love to answer the wierd questions and, once they do, they OWN the character. This method of creating characters is pure genius: it asks the players to think through their characters motivations and quirks while they're having a bit of fun. 

I may try to run this year's game as a multi-play experience, rather than a one-shot.  I'll need to see how many players survive the opening night, though...

J.


----------



## malcolypse

Amator said:


> I haven't read all 25 pages, but has anyone recorded a session of Dread?  I'd love to listen to a game and hear how the tension builds.




I know there's at least one out there, because I listened to it before I ever ran a game of Dread. 

They played it like they were more concerned with their time limit than enjoying the game, but I enjoyed listening to them.

Now comes the bad news...

I don't remember where I listened to this. Somewhere on the internet is about the best I can do. If I recall correctly, the website was a game blog where they had several recordings of sessions, but I can't find it for the life of me.

EDIT: I'll see what I can do about getting a game going on Halloween and recording it. I think it'd be fun. Also, I didn't use any , so that had to be fixed. If anyone finds the audio I'm thinking of or has one, I'd also love to listen to them.


----------



## Piratecat

Three act outline for a previous game, _The Curious Murder of Artemis Hume_. This is the scenario alluded to in the very first post of this thread.

Concept: Set in the 1920s. Ancient family warlock is hundreds of years old and lives on by possessing the body of a direct relative. He can only do this once there is only one person left in his familial path. Now that his previous body (the family patriarch Oliver Hume) has died, his will invites family members to his Scottish island manor house for a reading (playing, actually; it's on phonograph record) of the will. Using his ability to possess the dead, he will try to arrange the death of either his grandson or granddaughter, thus allowing him to live on for another generation.

PCs: 
Edward Granby, Young lawyer
Daniel Hume, Grandson
Frances Hume, Granddaughter
Mrs. Agate Finchley, Sister in law (Oliver's late wife's sister)
Camille Bellamont (aka Cassie Bluth), Sister-in-law's personal maid (secretly a con woman)
Mr. Bertram Finchley, Sister-in-law's son

[sblock=PC Questionnaires]
Mrs. Agate Finchley, widow
Sister-in-law of the late Sir Oliver Hume

1.    What happened to make you realize that the spirit world is real?
2.    Who is the most important spirit you’ve ever spoken to in a séance, and why?
3.    As children, how did your sister go blind?
4.    Why are you obsessively convinced that your sister was murdered by her husband?
5.    What is your deepest secret?
6.    You used to be rich. How did you run through your estate?
7.    What is the most important aspect to maintaining the illusion of wealth?
8.    Your middle-aged son Bertram still lives at home with you. Why?
9.    Were you a beauty in your youth?
10.    What did you think of Oliver the first time your older sister brought him home?
11.    When you pass over, how do you expect to die?
12.    What scares you the most?
13.    Are you lonely?


Mr. Bertram Finchley
Nephew of the late Sir Oliver Hume

1.    You are over 40. Why do you still live with your mother?
2.    What first triggered your interest in photography?
3.    Have you ever experienced true love?
4.    Why didn’t you enlist during the Great War?
5.    What’s your worst habit?
6.    Why do those people hate you?
7.    Do you like your relatives?
8.    How do you spend your days?
9.    Have you considered hospitalizing your mother?
10.    Do you believe in spirits?
11.    What scares you the most?
12.    What are you looking forward to?
13.    Is it worth having a go at Camille, your mother’s French maid?


Camille Bellamont, (formerly Cassie Bluth of Liverpool)
Personal maid / grifter

1.    You know in your heart that spiritualism is rubbish, but you did have one experience that could have been supernatural.  What was it?
2.    As a teenager, what happened to make you run away from home?
3.    Why do you fall in love so easily?
4.    How did you learn how to pretend to be a psychic?
5.    Once you’ve conned Mrs. Finchley out of her estate, how do you plan to spend it?
6.    What’s the best lie you’ve ever told?
7.    In your role as Mrs. Finchley’s maid, what task do you hate the most?
8.    Why did you leave your fiancée Edward during the Great War?
9.    What scares you the most?
10.    What are you looking forward to?
11.    What is your deepest secret?
12.    What really caused your younger brother to become so sick?
13.    How did you learn to read Braille?


Frances Artemis Hume, Flapper
Granddaughter of the late Sir Oliver Hume 

1.    What’s your most vivid memory of your grandfather Oliver?
2.    Who was your first kiss?
3.    When did you realize it all meant nothing?
4.    Where did you get those shoes?
5.    Do you black out every time?
6.    When she died, did your mother know you weren’t a virgin?
7.    What’s in your handbag?
8.    Why are you afraid of the dark?
9.    How do you earn your spending money?
10.    What would you do without your brother?
11.    Which of the nightmares is the worst?
12.    Who knows you best?
13.    How important is it to inherit your grandfather’s fortune?


Daniel Oliver Hume, dilettante
Grandson of the late Sir Oliver Hume 

1.    What’s your most vivid memory of your grandfather Oliver?
2.    Of the many young women you’ve dallied with, who was your favorite and why?
3.    What hobby are you proudest of?
4.    What did happen to that 4th grader who died when you were at school?
5.    Does it bother you that you and your sister are the last living blood members of the Hume family line?
6.    Why are you often late to your job?
7.    How do you earn your spending money?
8.    How important is it to you to inherit your grandfather’s fortune?
9.    Why didn’t you enlist during the Great War?
10.    How did your parents die?
11.    Why do you think you will never marry?
12.    Would you give your own life for your sister’s?
13.    If you could be anything in the world, what would you be?


Edward Granby, Lawyer

1.    Why did you go into law instead of medicine?
2.    Do you consider yourself an ethical man? Do you respect yourself?
3.    When you were a lieutenant in the trenches of Ypres, how many of your men died? Why do you think you lived?
4.    What secret might the family discover, if they look into how the Hume estate was handled by the senior partners?
5.    Why did you hate Sir Oliver Hume?
6.    Why did Cassie break off your engagement during the Great War?
7.    What are you proudest of?
8.    Did you know you had a twin who died when you were infants?
9.    Have you killed anybody since you came back from the war?
10.    Have you gotten over your fear of being buried alive?
11.    How do you treat men your age who didn’t go to war?
12.    Why do you no longer drink?
13.    What is your secret indulgence?
[/sblock]

NPCs:
Butler
Maid
Nurse
Oliver's ancient, ancient mother (who dies of old age during the reading of the will and is the first to be possessed)

Act One: 

Meet on ferry dock of Loch Encht, southern Scotland. It’s autumn. There’s a misty, light rain. PCs arrive in different cars and bicker. 
Taken to island, rough waves. Storm coming. Arrive on shore. Boat pilot waits, planning to bring back priest after the funeral. Will then return to the island the next morning.
Greeted by lawyer and butler.
Taken up to see Oliver's body. Visit with senile old lady and her lovely Swedish nurse. See heavy key around Oliver's neck.
Body is interred in family crypt, using PCs as pallbearers. Rain coming down hard.
Lawyer plays gramophone record for the will.

Act Two: 

Agate’s family and the great-great-grandmother receive a single pound only; they are mocked about not receiving a legacy. All money given to Daniel and Frances, either both or whichever one survives the other by the end of probate.
Arguments.
Great-grandmother dies and her body disappears. Nurse murdered. Cassie sees spirits.
Raining hard now. Butler and maid murdered; bodies animate to attacks PCs.
Séance?
Find clues leading to basement study.
All family portraits, painted over hundreds of years, all painted by the same hand.

Act Three:

Stalked through claustrophobic basement by dead great-grandmother.
Find keyhole in basement, but need key.
Oliver’s body missing. 
Find heads of all past relatives in sanctum, channeling life force.
Possession, attacks, and a suitable climax.


----------



## Piratecat

So, act one is designed to set up creepiness and introduce everyone; act two introduces a mystery, real danger and horror, and no easy way out; and act three lets them find useful clues that might kill them as they try to solve the horror and save themselves.

The delightful thing about this is that in every game the characters changed so radically. Didn't get boring once!


----------



## Plane Sailing

Speaking as an Edward Granby, I loved the questions for myself, and I thought it was brilliant the way that the interrelationships between the characters gradually resolved themselves during the game. Even though I didn't know what their questionnaires were, as everyone roleplayed according to their own responses, mine seemed to dovetail in very naturally.

It seems to me that setting great questionnaires could be the key to a good game.

Cheers


----------



## John Crichton

Plane Sailing said:


> It seems to me that setting great questionnaires could be the key to a good game.



I'd say they are simply a great start.  Full buy-in from the players and a prepared host are the other keys.


----------



## Janx

it seems to me that the questionnaires are how you meld the idea of a pre-gen with encouraging the player to make their character their own.

With the right questionaire for a PC, you set certain expectations (you're a doctor), yet the player still gets to flesh out key details that makes re-running the session with different players a unique experience.


----------



## Plane Sailing

John Crichton said:


> I'd say they are simply a great start.  Full buy-in from the players and a prepared host are the other keys.




Good point - I've only ever played in games where that is absolutely the case.


----------



## Plane Sailing

Janx said:


> it seems to me that the questionnaires are how you meld the idea of a pre-gen with encouraging the player to make their character their own.
> 
> With the right questionaire for a PC, you set certain expectations (you're a doctor), yet the player still gets to flesh out key details that makes re-running the session with different players a unique experience.




Exactly. My solicitor was an arrogant cowardly womanising braggart. Someone elses solicitor in another game was a shell-shocked survivor experiencing flashbacks to the war!


----------



## Rodrigo Istalindir

Piratecat said:


> The delightful thing about this is that in every game the characters changed so radically. Didn't get boring once!




The denouement of that game is quite possibly my favorite RPG experience.


----------



## Random221B

*Dread-spionage*

Hey folks,

So, time to once again resurrect this wonderful thread, and tap you all for thoughts, advice, and suggestions.

I'm running a Dread game in a couple of weeks, and I could use some help locking down the plot.  Let me give you the basics.

The scenario is called "Cold."  It's a cold war spy thriller with a supernatural horror twist, set in Berlin in the early 1950s.  The idea was originally inspired by the RPG "Cold City," but in practice it ultimately takes the majority of it's inspiration from the novel "Declare" by Tim Powers, as well as a bit from the writings of Charles Stross.

The characters are;

The American
The Brit
The Frenchwoman
The Soviet
The German
The Jew

The characters are all working together at the start of the scenario, despite their different backgrounds.  The Soviet has defected to the Americans with info about the subject they are going to be dealing with.  The mission is a joint US/British operation.  The German works for the "Gehlen Organization"--a German intelligence group started by the CIA to help them spy on the Soviets after WWII.  The Jew was OSS during the War, before later joining the Mossad, and has some pull with the current CIA head-of-station in Berlin, and has gotten himself in on the mission.  I haven't worked out exactly what the French agent's involvement is, beyond the fact that the French are strongly allied with the US and Britain in running the Allied sectors of Berlin.  I'd like to come up with something a little stronger, but that should work if that's the best I can come up with.

Here's the bare bones of the plot; The Soviet's have recently uncovered in the Soviet sector of Berlin a secret, defunct Nazi research facility where the Nazis were working on something called "Operation Jotunheim" during the War.  The Soviets have taken all the physical material and data in the facility and have started working on it themselves, calling it "Project Koschei."  They are soon going to relocate everything to Moscow, but are still looking for a key missing piece to the Nazi project, something the Nazis code named "Die Nadel" ("The Needle.")

The Soviet has defected to the Americans with the preceding info.  The Soviet does not know what "Project Koschei" or "Die Nadel" actually are, though there is some suggestion that "Koschei" may be some sort of biologically based mind control or psychological warfare weapon.  All the allies really know is, whatever "Koschei" is, they don't want the Soviets to have it.

So basically, the PCS are tasked with looking into the matter, trying to achieve any or all of the following; learn more about the precise nature of Project Koschei, learn the nature of Die Nadel, locate and acquire or destroy Die Nadel before the Soviets can get it, locate and acquire or destroy the materials and/or data involved in Project Koschei that the Soviets already have, before it can be sent off to Moscow.  All of this is set against the backdrop of a an escalating blizzard that is slowly but effectively shutting the city of Berlin down.

The horror element comes in when the PCs learn through the course of their investigation that Project Koschei is actually a nigh-Lovecraftian entropic entity (in power level and form most similar to the djinn in Powers' "Declare," but in function and effect more like John Tynes' interpretation of Hastur for the "Delta Green" mythology,) that breaks down order and consumes complex patterns...like human thought processes.  It also endlessly consumes heat.  If the entity is freed, it will begin by consuming the minds of anyone it encounters, leading to madness and eventually catatonia and/or brain death.  Eventually, other ordered patterns will break down, and heat transfer will continue to occur, until entropy reaches it's maximum capacity and all functions in reality cease.  Basically, the entity can potentially lead to a superaccelerated heat death of the universe, if allowed to.  The Nazis had been researching to try to discover if there was a way to weaponize the entity, harness its power and release it only under controlled circumstances, to try to causes madness, chaos, and psychological breakdown amongst their enemies.

The truth about Die Nadel is that it is not some sort of key component to activating and/or controlling Project Koschei, as the Allies believe.  It is in fact a kill switch, designed to destroy the entity, should it get free of all bonds and controls.

So, that's the basics...defecting spy brings word of Soviets getting hold of Nazi weapon.  Allied spies try to acquire or destroy said weapon, learn that it is actually horrible nameless entity in the process of being awakened/unleashed, need to stop it if they can...all against a backdrop of the worst blizzard they've ever seen.

The problem is, I don't really know what happens in the plot.  How do they get from the beginning of the story to the end?  What events, people, etc. do they encounter along the way?  I have some ideas for elements I'd like to throw in, but I'm not sure which ones I should use, how to use them, etc.  I'll go ahead and just toss out some of the ideas, elements, scenes, characters, etc. I've had.  I'm not necessarily intending to use all of these, just looking for some ideas on which ones I might want to use, and how to incorporate them.

 - A murdered agent or intelligence asset, possibly an old friend or mentor of one of the PCs, right at the start of the investigation.
 - Possibly the asset isn't actually dead, but faked his own death, either to go deeper and do good work (shadowy ally of the PCs) or because he is on the wrong side of things (twist reveal enemy of the PCs)
 - Maybe the asset is not dead, just missing.  PCs have to look for him.
 - Brother/partner/other close associate/relative of missing/dead asset is in a mental hospital, and the PCs have to get in to question him.  Asylums are always good fun in a horror game.
 - A Soviet intelligence asset known as "The Grinning Man" and "The Persian" is working on acquiring Die Nadel for the Soviets.  He is an obvious but mysterious antagonist the PCs have to race/struggle against.
 - As more is learned, The Grinning Man comes to seem more and more supernatural himself...something unnatural/inhuman in human form acting as a herald of the coming beast.  Perhaps he is only pretending to work for the Soviets, but actually serves the entity.
 - Grinning Man refers to the entity as a "daeva", one of Zoroastrianism's "wrong gods," beings who are corrupted by "druj" ("the Lie")--which is disorder, entropy, corruption, madness, sin, etc.--and are thus unable to accept "asha" ("The Truth") that leads to righteousness, order, reason, etc.
 - This ties well into the spy story aspect, as all of the characters live their lives immersed in "The Lie"...everything they do is about secrets, deception, false identities, paranoia, etc.  That's what it means to be a spy.  Thus, they are susceptible to druj, and resistant to asha.
 - The Grinning Man goes by the name "Indrid Cold" (the name I got from the Mothman events of West Virginia in the 70s, but plot-wise it has nothing to do with that...I just always loved the name and the weirdness of the character.)  The name "Indrid" bears a resemblance to both "Indra," who--in Hindu mythology--is king of the "devas" (good spirits/gods who oppose the sinful "asura") and god of storms; and "Indar," who--in Zoroastrian belief--is one of the "daeva" (corrupt, sinful spirits opposed by the good "ahura") is said to "freeze the minds of men, making them incapable of righteous thought.
 - This ties in to something I am thinking, which is that The Grinning Man/Cold seems to be hostile and malevolent (i.e. "Indar") but in the end is revealed to actually be working to stop/defeat the entity, and is actually good and helpful (i.e. "Indra.")  I want to play with themes of trust, betrayal, and deception, and have the thought that in the end the PCs' seeming enemy turns out to be an ally, while an ally turns out to be a foe.
 - Working from this premise, my thought is that their handler(s) who assign them to this mission in the first place are actually revealed to be enemies at the end.  Are they actually working for the other side?  Or are they misguided "patriots" hoping to use the entity themselves, or trick the Soviets into unleashing the enemy on their own soil, foolishly thinking that it will *only* destroy them?
 - The biggest twist I am considering is that the characters are all actually already dead.  They died during the war, each of their deaths in some way connected to this entity, and they are now currently prisoners within it's mind.  This inspiration comes from a bit at the end of the Charles Stross short story "A Colder War";

"There is life eternal within the            eater of souls. Nobody is ever forgotten or allowed to rest in peace.            They populate the simulation spaces of its mind, exploring all the possible            alternative endings to their life. There _is_ a fate worse than            death, you know."

In this version, their minds/spirits have been trapped within the entity's mind, reliving their deaths over and over, and slowly going mad.  But their "handler" in the real world has summoned/awakened/bound them, and they now interact within a "virtual" Berlin within the mind of the entity, with no memories of their previous existence there.  They believe they are alive and on a mission, but their "handler" actually has them searching the entity's own mind for the keys to its control or destruction.

In this version, "Indrid Cold" seems hostile and malicious because their perceptions are skewed due to their time inside the entity's mind, but he is actually a benevolent being trying to help them destroy the entity and free themselves to go on to their final rewards.  This adds layers to the title of the scenario, "Cold."  Now, not only is it a cold war story, set in the middle of a blizzard, with an entity that consumes heat, and a man who uses the name "Indrid Cold," but it is now also a "cold day in hell," for them, and Indrid is trying to let them finally rest, or in spy speak, help them "come in from the cold."

I feel like this twist/angle to raise the story from being just a "spies hunt and destroy monster" plot.  But at the same time, I worry that it may be too complex, too intricate, and could feel like a cheat to the players, when the ending comes.  So...I don't know.  Any thoughts?

Ok, that's it for now.  This post is gargantuan enough at this point.  I'm going to wrap up here, and see if anybody has any comments.  If I think of more key tidbits to share, I'll put them in another post.

Thanks for your time.

Best,

~~~~Random


----------



## Piratecat

Boy, this sounds awesome. A question, first, about pacing: how long is the game? Four hours?


----------



## WizarDru

Spitballing, here:

*Act I:  Insertion*

The Players spend a brief amount of time investigating.  The Frenchman has a contact within Berlin.  He once served as an administrator for the French Sector.  He has a lead on where "Die Nadel" can be found.  He also has access to a secret tunnel used to smuggle people out of East Berlin and that can get the heroes into West Berlin.  The German knows a contact to get them into Project Koschei.

The Players sneak into East Berlin, avoid Russian Guards and manage to enter Project Koschei.  Fighting the storm, they manage to make their way, though once or twice they think they are spotted...only to find any pursuers disappear, if they were every truly there.  Finally, they reach the base.  And something has gone very, VERY WRONG.  While there are still patrols on the streets, security inside Koschei is light...no, non-existent.  Inside a special facility at a former Nazi munitions factory, they find a lab, abandoned.

*Act II - Discovery*

 The players explore the lab.  They soon find it appears abandoned, but almost as if it they guards and scientists had just left.  Cigarettes left burning in ash trays.  Radios still on.  Guns sitting on the floor, their barrels warm from recent firing.  The lights occasionally spike so bright they might burn out, then return to normal.  They find arrays of equipment, scientific devices and a COUNTER, counting down.  It has only a fixed amount of time, but no explanation what it's function is.  Eventually, they discover that it appears to be controlling a massive generator that is running at maximum output.  It is powering a massive magnetic cyclotron that is containing...something hideous.  Notes indicate the researchers called it Cynothoglys and that this mollusc like horror can destroy ideas.  It was designed to be a powerful weapon, but is uncontrollable.  Before they can learn too much, a ghostly apparition of Soviet guards attacks, some screaming.  The containment system was a failsafe activated by the scientists....they have not been fully destroyed, but now are only ghostly versions of themelves; in essence, dangerous, deadly memories.

The players must evade the ghostly soviet guards, and enlist the help of the ghost scientists.  One had figured out where Die Nadel was and decided he needed to retrieve it and destroy Cynothoglys for the good of mankind.  The political officer heard this and killed him...in the ensuing panic, the apparatus containing the horror was damaged and it managed to extrude part of itself, killing all the living.  But one scientist managed to activate the emergency containment unit....but time is running out.  And Cynothoglys is growing stronger, taking over the ghosts to use as agents.

*Act III - Destruction*

Armed with the knowledge of the location of Die Nadel, the players must evade the political officer and other ghosts as well as the living Soviet and KGB agents of East Berlin.  They must do this while running through the bilzzard, in hopes of reaching the vault where it is stored.  Worse still, at least one of the players is secretly a member of a cult that worships Cynothoglys and has been seeking her/it all this time.  Now, that traitor strikes, in hopes of killing the heroes and securing eternal bliss.  


How's that for a start?


----------



## Random221B

Piratecat said:


> Boy, this sounds awesome. A question, first, about pacing: how long is the game? Four hours?




Four to six hours.  I have some flex room.  When we do a Dread game we make a whole day of it.  We get together around lunch time on a Sunday and have lunch together, and do any pre-game chat, light roleplay, etc.  After lunch, we do the game proper over the mid-late afternoon and early evening, then we have dinner and decompress/deconstruct.  Based on the last couple games, it's likely to run about five hours, but I gan go a little longer if need be, or wrap a little earlier if the pacing dictates.

Again based on my last two runs, I've noticed that for me, the first part of the game seems to go quickly--or the time goes slowly, depending on your perspective.  The players seem to accomplish a lot and move through a fair amount of plot, and when I check the time, it's always earlier than I expect it to be.  But then the last hour and a half to two hours seems to fly by, and I find myself rushing a little bit to get a successful climax and brief denoument in.  Any thoughts or suggestions?


----------



## Random221B

WizarDru said:


> Spitballing, here:
> 
> *Act I:  Insertion*
> 
> {snip}
> 
> *Act II - Discovery*
> 
> {snip}
> 
> *Act III - Destruction*
> 
> {snip}
> 
> How's that for a start?




That's a decent start, thanks.    Some good stuff here.  I don't know that I'd use all of it--I'm looking for a bit of a different tone in some places--but I like the sudden desolation at the facility, the destruction of ideas, the "ghostly, hostile memories" they have to fight, etc.  The whole tone and mood you came up with for inside the facility is my favorite part.  I am pretty definitely going to steal that.  I like the sudden spiking of the lights, the gun barrels still hot from firing, etc.

Very much appreciated.  Any other thoughts, please feel free to share them, and as I hammer out a framework, I'll try to start posting it, so folks have an idea of where I'm going with things.


----------



## Piratecat

I'd play in this game in a heartbeat. You win "most ambitious game of the year" award. It's a brilliant and (possibly overly?) complex story that's going to be tricky to pull off. 

I've seen a few vaguely similar adventures, including one CoC game where all the PCs turned out to be fragments of a person's shattered mind. I'll suggest starting at the end and working backwards. Ideally, what's the big climax? Create 3-4 scenes working towards that, then layer in the Grinning Man's development. You're shooting for disquieting and unbalancing, with aspects that make the world feel more and more surreal in a way that is only explainable when you realize the world isn't real. That way you'll have all the clues ready for foreshadowing when you get to the first scene.

Boy, character questionnaires are going to be a huge part of this game.


----------



## Random221B

Piratecat said:


> I'd play in this game in a heartbeat. You win "most ambitious game of the year" award. It's a brilliant and (possibly overly?) complex story that's going to be tricky to pull off.
> 
> I've seen a few vaguely similar adventures, including one CoC game where all the PCs turned out to be fragments of a person's shattered mind. I'll suggest starting at the end and working backwards. Ideally, what's the big climax? Create 3-4 scenes working towards that, then layer in the Grinning Man's development. You're shooting for disquieting and unbalancing, with aspects that make the world feel more and more surreal in a way that is only explainable when you realize the world isn't real. That way you'll have all the clues ready for foreshadowing when you get to the first scene.
> 
> Boy, character questionnaires are going to be a huge part of this game.




Thanks so much.    I hope it goes at least reasonably well.

I admit, I am still very torn on the whole "they're already dead" thing.  On the one hand, I really think it could add an unexpected twist and a really unique atmosphere and angle to things.  On the other hand, I worry that it will complicate things too much, and/or feel like a cheat to the players in the end.  Luckily I still have a little time to hammer things out.  Once I get the questionnaires back, that may help me figure out how I ultimately want to go.

You're right, I think the questionnaires are really key.  I agonized over them quite a bit.  Initially, I had one question the same in all the questionnaires, "How did you almost die during the war, and how does it still haunt you today?"  The point was to determine how they *actually* died, and then have them re-experience it within the game.  But I decide I didn't like that.  It felt clunky, and I wanted to change things up between the characters.  So instead, I tried to ask leading and/or suggestive questions about each character's experiences during the war, like "How did you manage to escape execution when the Abwehr was disbanded and most of the German Resistance groups were rounded up in late '44 and early '45?" or, "Tell me about that night in Berlin, when it all went to hell."  The hope being that the players will provide answers from which I can extrapolate their deaths.  The upside is that if I decide *not* to go with the whole "They're already dead" thing, then I haven't wasted a question slot on something fairly generic whose only purpose was to provide information I'm not even going to use.  Fingers crossed that it works out.

I also focused a lot of the questions on regrets, losses, and things they are holding onto...the kind of things they'll have to let go of, if they want to move on and rest at the end, after they destroy the Big Bad.  Again...we'll see how things play out.

Your comment about the CoC scenario has inspired a new scenario idea in me, based on that premise;

"Reconstructing Harry"

Harry Blackwood is missing...or maybe he's been murdered (or possibly even dismembered...nice and gruesome.)  There's evidence to suggest that his death or disappearance is because of something he knows; something terrible that he learned somehow.  A group of people who all have some sort of unusual connection to Harry, and a vested interested in seeing him found or avenged, come together in a desperate effort to piece together exactly what Harry knew that got him killed (or taken.)

As the story progresses, it becomes clear that he learned of some terrible threat to humanity/the world/etc.  We're talking Lovecraftian-Apocalytpic here, real "Things Man Was Not Meant to Know" territory.  And something about the nature of what he learned means that Harry is the only one who can stop it.  Now the race to either get him back or--if he's dead--learn *everything* he knew becomes even more desperate.  And of course as the climax approaches, it slowly dawns on the characters that what Harry learned shattered his mind...and they are the fragments, each with a little piece of the knowledge Harry needs to save the world.  They have to figure out how to reintigrate themselves in order to rebuild Harry's mind, so he can do what he needs to do.

I'm thinking that in the end the players will have to decide which of them will ultimately "become" the integrated Harry.  The others will cease to exist at that point, and the last remaining player--the "true" Harry--has to make the final pulls to save the world.

I envision things like weird telephone calls or radio broadcasts representing conversations and comments bleeding in from the "real" world outside of Harry's mind, to add elements of weirdness.

What do folks think?  

Of course, if I do put this one together, and I plan to run it for some of the same players as the game I'm running in a couple of weeks, I'll have to run 3 or 4 other scenarios first, before I follow the "you're all actually dead" scenario with the "you're all actually fragments of somebody's mind" one.  LOL

Thanks for thoughts and comments.

Best,

~~~~Random


----------



## Seonaid

Both of your ideas are neat! I'm not sure I'm thrilled with the "remaining player makes the pulls to save the world" idea though. It seems like it would become too meta if the players know ahead of time that will happen ("Okay, who has the best hands?") and too tricky/bad-GM if they don't ("Man, if you had told us, we'd get Mike to do it instead of Sally because he's better at this kind of thing."). Maybe letting them each make pulls in succession? I dunno. 

Thanks for your ideas! They were fun to read.


----------



## Rodrigo Istalindir

Unveiled a new Dread game at NC Gameday last weekend.  As usual, it was a ton of fun.  Great players make this game such a pleasure to run.



> *The Soulriders*
> 
> If you want to get to the Other Side, someone has to die.  If you want to come back, you have to live.
> 
> _The first time it happened it scared the crap out of you.  You'd fallen asleep beside the hospital bed where your mother lay gasping to breath with cancer-riddled lungs.  Your dreams were chaotic, until out of the formless shadows your mother appeared.  She smiled and reached towards you.  A chill ran through you at her embrace, and in an instant you saw your mother's entire life.  Childhood, marriage, the affair you never knew about.  The petty crimes that we all commit, the pain and elation of childbirth,  everything.  You knew her as well as you knew yourself.  Better, maybe, absent the self-delusions that get us through the day.
> 
> Your mother turned and moved off into the shadows, beckoning you to follow.  Fragmentary images of the city swirled around you, finally settling down to the familiar view of your parents' bedroom.  Your mother went to the Japanese jewelry box your grandfather brought back from the war.  She opened it and removed an ivory cameo, an heirloom that had been in your family for generations.  She smiled as she looped the gold chain around your neck, the pain that had dimmed her eyes gone now.
> 
> Something stabbed you in the chest. You awoke, sobbing, the sound almost drowning out the drone of your mother's heart monitor flat-lining.  A nurse towered over you, fluorescent light glinting off the needle of empty syringe. You don't notice the pendant around your neck until the grief counselor compliments it._
> 
> You and the others don't work together enough to be called a gang, but if there was no honor among thieves, there was at least a certain camaraderie.   You shared new techniques for soul riding, provided alibis when needed, and every once in a while joined together to pull off a job too big for one person alone.  There aren't a lot of you, but now there's one fewer.  Malloy wasn't your leader, but he was the person you all looked up to, respected  Now he's dead, for-real dead, because someone put a bullet in his brain.  The police don't know how the killer entered a room locked from the inside, but you've got a pretty good idea.




This was the culmination of some ideas that had been kicking around for a long time without coming together.  Finally one day it all just sort of clicked, and I'm very pleased with the results.  It had a somewhat codified skill/talent tree, in that there were things the characters knew they could do, and certain characters were better at specific 'soul rider' skills.  And it had a nice way to integrate 'dead man walking', which was fortunate since we had one unlucky player knock the tower over around pull #6.


----------



## Wednesday Boy

Hey all,
I'm trying to put together a Dread game for my reunion with the college roommates this weekend and I need some help.  I'm never a GM and I've never played or run Dread so I have a bit of an uphill climb but I'm going to give it a whirl anyway.  (And fall back on one of the scenarios in the book or an old CoC scenario, if need be.)

The session would be between 2-4 hours long and its general premise would follow the movie Munich.  The players would be covert assassins from the near-past taking out leaders of a revolutionary/terrorist organization.

This is what I have so far:

Plot Outline
1.  Two starter assassinations.  (Easy ones to display the characters and get a bunch of pulls).
2.  Dual assassination.  (A harder set of assassinations that need a little more planning because they need to be done simultaneously in separate parts of the city).
3.  Retribution.  (The terrorists learn about the group and take the fight to them.)
4.  Leader goes into hiding.  (The leader of the terrorists goes into hiding and the players need to investigate to find him.)
5.  Final showdown.  (Kill the leader.)

Questionaires
What made you sign up for the mission?
What do you bring to the mission?  (Should I assign a role so I don't have three explosive experts?)
Why are you no longer in a service?
What was your biggest blunder on an assignment?

SNAFUs
Mistaken identity.  The PCs misidentify the target's brother as the target and kill the brother by accident.
Innocent bystanders getting in the way.
Police try to bring in the PCs.
=============================== 

Like I mentioned, I hardly ever run games so I don't know how much detail to go into for each plot point.  I don't want to dictate how they should plan the assassinations but I want to have enough to keep things interesting and moving forward.

Any comments or suggestions would be much appreciated!  Thanks!


----------



## Asmor

This thread is going to outlast ENWorld.


----------



## Piratecat

Wednesday Boy said:


> Plot Outline
> 1.  Two starter assassinations.  (Easy ones to display the characters and get a bunch of pulls).
> 2.  Dual assassination.  (A harder set of assassinations that need a little more planning because they need to be done simultaneously in separate parts of the city).
> 3.  Retribution.  (The terrorists learn about the group and take the fight to them.)
> 4.  Leader goes into hiding.  (The leader of the terrorists goes into hiding and the players need to investigate to find him.)
> 5.  Final showdown.  (Kill the leader.)



In my experience this sort of setup leads to horrible analysis paralysis. The group sits around and talk, talks, talks about the plan instead of going and carrying it out. That's true for one assassination; try to get 4 in there and you're dooomed. You also need some emotional or personal tie to the person they have to kill.

I would probably set this up in 3 acts, and start them in media res during the first assassination. Something goes wrong and they have to carry it out anyways. In act two, they learn that they've accidentally hosed themselves somehow and their world is falling apart. They have to take out the leader to help themselves, but people are trying to kill them in the mean time. This leads to investigation while dodging assassins.  Finally they find and go after the leader, but is it a trap?

Dread does spooky much better than combat / action movie. Plan accordingly.


----------



## John Crichton

Piratecat said:


> Dread does spooky much better than combat / action movie. Plan accordingly.



Just quoting this cuz it's mega-true.  A Dread game I just ran had a minimal amount of action and that particular sequence wasn't nearly as fun as the rest of the game which was much more psychological and investigation based.


----------



## Seonaid

John Crichton said:


> Just quoting this cuz it's mega-true.  A Dread game I just ran had a minimal amount of action and that particular sequence wasn't nearly as fun as the rest of the game which was much more psychological and investigation based.



I was in John Crichton's game and what he says is definitely true. The investigation parts were definitely better than the combat part.


----------



## Rel

Seonaid said:


> I was in John Crichton's game and what he says is definitely true. The investigation parts were definitely better than the combat part.




You are _such _a suckup!


----------



## Rodrigo Istalindir

Rel said:


> You are _such _a suckup!




Srsly.  It's like she's trying to get into his pants.


----------



## Seonaid

You guys are just jealous.


----------



## Wednesday Boy

Piratecat said:


> In my experience this sort of setup leads to horrible analysis paralysis...
> 
> ...Dread does spooky much better than combat / action movie. Plan accordingly.




Thanks for all of the insight, they were great pieces of advice all around!  I actually put this idea on hold and decided to run one of the modules from the book instead since I've never played in a Dread game on either side of the tower.  I was going to run it this weekend but it turned out that we bit off more games than the time we had to chew, so we never got around to it.  Alas, I'll have to wait on Dread once again—more’s the pity.


----------



## Piratecat

Wednesday Boy said:


> Thanks for all of the insight, they were great pieces of advice all around!  I actually put this idea on hold and decided to run one of the modules from the book instead since I've never played in a Dread game on either side of the tower.  I was going to run it this weekend but it turned out that we bit off more games than the time we had to chew, so we never got around to it.  Alas, I'll have to wait on Dread once again—more’s the pity.



No problem, let us know how it goes when you have a chance to play.

My favorite moment in Dread is near the end of the game when I have the players separated and there are things stalking them from the darkness, darting in and out of sight while ambush attacks are made on the PCs. I usually never use one BBEG in Dread. Instead I use multiple "expendable" monsters, one of whom who the group might be able to catch and kill. . not that it'll do them much good.

I also like games where the players have to think their way to the solution, right at the same time that they're being harried. That puts massive pressure on the players and ensures that just knocking down the tower to kill a bad guy doesn't end the game with an anti-climax. In your previous example, if the PCs were trying to assassinate an important player, he has set it up so that killing him ruins their lives -- their credit ratings slashed, their loved ones killed, bombs going off throughout the city, whatever. The question ends up being "what's most important to you?", and the real struggle is between characters while the bad guy sits there and laughs. Very "Joker" from the last Batman movie.


----------



## Wednesday Boy

After having Dread for years I finally got to play a game of it!  Our normal campaign was put on hold because two players couldn't make it this week, so I was tapped to run Dread since I've been wanting to for a while.

I overwhelmingly prefer to play RPGs so this was the first one I've run since a one-shot in 2004 and before that was a short campaign in 1998.  Needless to say I was very rusty as a GM but all in all it went pretty well.  The general consensus of the players was that it was fun as a one-shot but couldn't see making a campaign out of it.

One of my favorite parts of running the game was integrating answers from the questionaires to tailor the adventure to get more pulls.

I think the most difficult part of it was having a good sense of the pacing, not only of the plot in general but of coordinating the climax of the plot with the precarious tower.  I think I missed that mark a little because in the middle of the grand escape the tower toppled killing one player.  But after it was rebuilt it was stable enough that there was no tension for the remaining two players as they escaped.  It wasn't too bad because they only needed five or so pulls to escape but it seemed like the tower collapsed too early and drained the tension too much.

The biggest issue I ran into was purely a GMing fault by me.  I ran the Beneath the Metal Sky adventure from the book and one player did an excellent job in flavoring the setting based on his questionaire answers.  I was so elated at how closely he tied his character to the macguffin that I didn't expect that he would avoid all of the other clues to investigate.  It muddled a bunch of the clue gathering and forced me to throw obvious "Don't go there." encounters to corral that character.  But it was a good lesson to learn.

Despite the challenges and downfalls, I can't wait for my next Dread game!!


----------



## Rel

Not long ago I got to play Piratecat's "Separation Anxiety" game, which was easily the best Dread game I've ever played.  It helped a lot that the group of players was one of the finest collection of gamers that I've ever sat in a room with.

But it had a few things built in that really just made it amazing and I think they are worth mentioning.  I'll do this without giving any spoilers.

The basis for the game is that the characters are on a reality TV game show where they are trying to (presumably) fix their marriages.  There were three sets of couples played by the players and another couple played by the GM.

It seems like a pretty basic setup but it's genius for a couple of key reasons.  First, you already have a character in the game that you're deeply tied to because they are your spouse.  This might mean that you love them or that you hate them or that you want to see them live or die, but regardless it ties you strongly to them.

The other thing is that I've seen some Dread games, especially those with new players, where it is very hard to break the "PCs are a party" mindset where you don't want to ever get in each other's way.  This results in not taking too many pulls early unless faced with some obvious outside problem.  But this game is a game show where you're competing directly with the other players.  The pulls started happening early and often (one player knocked the tower down after what was essentially the first encounter!).  This quickly ratchets up the tension for a death by the mid game, which is a good thing in Dread, IMHO.

Finally I loved one other tweak that Piratecat made to the rules, which was to allow one player, once per scene, rather than make a pull to instead sit in the "confessional".  This was a separate chair that nobody else was occupying, intended to mimic the solo camera time often shown on reality TV shows.  It was hilarious and interesting as a way to reveal more about your character to the players but not to their characters.

Dread is one of the few games that I really love which I've never GMed.  I'm now considering doing so using this game or something similar.


----------



## Wednesday Boy

Rel said:


> The basis for the game is that the characters are on a reality TV game show where they are trying to (presumably) fix their marriages.




That sounds pretty interesting.  Did it have Dread's stereotypical horror/suspense theme mixed into it?


----------



## xipetotec

Wednesday Boy said:


> The general consensus of the players was that it was fun as a one-shot but couldn't see making a campaign out of it.




For me, I think that's what's brilliant about Dread. Not that campaigns are bad, but dread is "horror". People die by the end. I think it lends itself ideally to a quick-start, one session game. Loads of fun


----------



## RedTonic

I do think it's possible to structure a campaign of sorts--but it would be very episodic, considering it's likely that none of the PCs will survive a given session.

I'm dying to run a Dread game after sitting in on one at the Boston gameday; I don't have a local group, but one day...! This just means I have time to sit on an idea.


----------



## Rel

Wednesday Boy said:


> That sounds pretty interesting.  Did it have Dread's stereotypical horror/suspense theme mixed into it?




Oh absolutely.  I just don't want to give any of that away because it is likely that PC will be running this at GenCon and possibly other future events.


----------



## Wednesday Boy

Ah, I gotcha.  Man, now I need to finagle some way to GenCon...


----------



## TarionzCousin

Where are the free Dread Jenga scenarios? I finally bought a Jenga game. I've owned Dread for a few years but have never played it.


----------



## morris443

I am running Dread tonight for a group of my friends. Can't wait to give this game a serious try. I've listened to two actual play podcasts and have been interested for a few years by the mechanics. I actually used a JENGA tower in my 4e game once to build suspense and it was amazing.

We'll be playing 'Beneath A Metal Sky' and I've already gotten four of the questionnaires back. I'm a little nervous that I won't be able to pace the story well, and that the tower will fall sooner that I hope and then there will be no more tension for wrapping up the game, because we'll have a pretty fresh tower during the part of the game that should be tense.


----------



## Rel

morris443 said:


> I am running Dread tonight for a group of my friends. Can't wait to give this game a serious try. I've listened to two actual play podcasts and have been interested for a few years by the mechanics. I actually used a JENGA tower in my 4e game once to build suspense and it was amazing.
> 
> We'll be playing 'Beneath A Metal Sky' and I've already gotten four of the questionnaires back. I'm a little nervous that I won't be able to pace the story well, and that the tower will fall sooner that I hope and then there will be no more tension for wrapping up the game, because we'll have a pretty fresh tower during the part of the game that should be tense.




See if you can position the players to have conflicting goals down the home stretch.  If they are pulling against each other then the tower tension factor will ramp up VERY FAST.


----------



## Wednesday Boy

morris443 said:


> We'll be playing 'Beneath A Metal Sky' and I've already gotten four of the questionnaires back. I'm a little nervous that I won't be able to pace the story well, and that the tower will fall sooner that I hope and then there will be no more tension for wrapping up the game, because we'll have a pretty fresh tower during the part of the game that should be tense.




Good luck!  I wouldn't worry too much about the pacing.  That was what I had the biggest trouble with but even though the rebuilt tower didn't give tension for the last players to escape everyone still had an enjoyable time.  And I'm sure it's all about practice, so take the plunge and you'll be even better for your next Dread GMing!


----------



## Janx

i ran Beneath a Metal Sky last year for thanksgiving when some friends came into town.   I used the quick start rules.

they had initial trepedations about leaving their ship unprotected, but decided locking it would be sufficient.

things started slow, as I had to make up the corridors and shape of the ship a bit.

The first attack and rush to get power back on went well.

I had 1 player sacrifice himself when they were climbing a shaft to go up a floor and were getting chased.

then there was some room to room running and hunting and locking doors.

The final race to the escape pod resulted in another sacrifice.

I did notice the doctor PC felt like there was less to do, so try to spot that kind of problem early in instigate some action opportunities.  basically, PCs who aren't actively engaging (and taking risks) won't pull and make things harder for the eventual climax.


----------



## broghammerj

Quick question never having played this game.  Is there ever a time where there are a bunch of pulls and that particular series of actions is resolved, but it leaves the tower in position in which the very next pull is going to make it fall?

Seems like there would be an unfun situation where everyone knew whomever had to make the next pull was a goner.


----------



## wedgeski

broghammerj said:


> Seems like there would be an unfun situation where everyone knew whomever had to make the next pull was a goner.



I think part of getting into the spirit of Dread is relishing such moments.  Your crew know they've used up all their luck, and that it's only a matter of time before the inevitable happens.

Besides which, you'd be amazed just how long the tower survives when everyone is "sure" it's going to fall on the next pull.


----------



## Janx

broghammerj said:


> Quick question never having played this game.  Is there ever a time where there are a bunch of pulls and that particular series of actions is resolved, but it leaves the tower in position in which the very next pull is going to make it fall?
> 
> Seems like there would be an unfun situation where everyone knew whomever had to make the next pull was a goner.




there's no such thing, any such limitation lies in the mind of the puller.

With my patented Lift and Twist method, if ALL viable blocks (centers or edges) have been pulled, you can simply lift the top of the tower and flick out the single block and rotate the tower top in your hand and set it back down.

-------------
changing topic a bit, one thing I found when I ran BaMS, was it felt a bit railroady to me.  In the sense that once they got off their ship, I herd them toward one scene, then another, then another.  Since the ship has no map, its all abstract, so locational strategy is minimized.


I'm pondering a zombie survival scenario, run as a more open, randomized situation.

Perhaps start if off like Dawn of the Dead, the players wake up with the initial discovery of zombies in their houses.  From there, roll with whatever strategy the players choose.

Any car the PCs attempt to use has a 1 in 6 chance of a zombie waiting in it (players option to look before jumping in of course)

any barricade has a 2 in 6 chance of getting broken down when things get slow.

basically take some of the guiding what happens next and where the climax is and put it on whatever the players happen.

I think a zombie survival game would work out in Dread, as the concept itself is fairly open ended.  The zombies make everything inherently dangerous, while PCs pursue general survival goals.

It should also work into Dread's ramp up cycle.  The initial rush to escape immediate threat triggers early pulling to prime the tower.

Thoughts?


----------



## malcolypse

Yep. Dread is magnificent for zombie survival games, and the way to make it flow is exactly as you describe. Let them layout their zombie survival tactics, and let the zombies wear them down, until they have to do something spectacular to escape at the climax. 

I love Dread.

I'm thinking of running an ongoing Bughunters-style game, where any loses are replaced between missions with new recruits, but the survivors get to play the same characters.

Early pulls would be to get extra information beyond the basic briefing, requisition extra or upgraded equipment, and the survivors could pull for promotions based on their performance in the last mission.

I was also thinking that there should be a way to simulate all the horrors of friendly fire that are seen in this type of movie, like when the Colonial Marine gets jumped by the critter and is dragged into the darkness, machine gun spraying wildly and hitting a teammate. Not sure how I'd do it, but I'd like to see something where the players worry about the tower even when it's not their turn.


----------



## Piratecat

Janx said:


> there's no such thing, any such limitation lies in the mind of the puller.
> 
> With my patented Lift and Twist method, if ALL viable blocks (centers or edges) have been pulled, you can simply lift the top of the tower and flick out the single block and rotate the tower top in your hand and set it back down.



That... that's brilliant. Damn. Never even occurred to me. Playing my scenario Separation Anxiety at GenCon, we got in a situation where you literally couldn't make another pull without toppling the tower. The tension stayed incredibly high. Remember, you're never obligated to make a pull and can always decline. Then it's just a matter of "when's the most dramatic moment to knock the tower down?"

I'm finally retiring Separation Anxiety after about 15 runs. The PCs are married reality show contestants in the process of divorcing, on location down in Mexico. It's remarkably fun, mostly because it starts by pitting the PCs against one another. This destabilized the tower early on but not (usually) enough to topple it; during the part where everything gets scary and goes to hell, they're staring that unstable tower in the face. It does a great job of maintaining nervous tension.


----------



## Janx

Piratecat said:


> That... that's brilliant. Damn. Never even occurred to me. Playing my scenario Separation Anxiety at GenCon, we got in a situation where you literally couldn't make another pull without toppling the tower. The tension stayed incredibly high. Remember, you're never obligated to make a pull and can always decline. Then it's just a matter of "when's the most dramatic moment to knock the tower down?"




Thanks!

I've played a lot of Jenga.  Normally, I've only seen max pulls reached about 2 times. I played on the Giant Jenga set I made this weekend, and every game reached max pulls (29-33 levels).  The last game, had 5 Lift&Twists to keep going (though the last one killed it).  it is by no means a safe maneuver, but seems to fall within the rules and solves thes problem.

The refusing to pull concept always puzzled me in Dread.  namely because the only way you can die is by toppling the tower.  In which case, what bad stuff can happen that I wouldn't yet still keep me in the game if I refuse to pull when the barn is on fire and the alien is trying to drag me into its kitchen for dinner.

It seems a point is reached where "Pull if you want to live" becomes logical and that refusal or failure both result in death.


----------



## Piratecat

Janx said:


> It seems a point is reached where "Pull if you want to live" becomes logical and that refusal or failure both result in death.



I've never seen that in play. That said, I can generally think of things that are more interesting than dying and which keep the player in the game regardless.


----------



## Janx

Piratecat said:


> I've never seen that in play. That said, I can generally think of things that are more interesting than dying and which keep the player in the game regardless.




I've only ran Dread once, so this is typical gamer who only read the rules musing about the impact of the rules on the game he hasn't really played.

the example I recall from the quickplay rules was about crossing a beam, and not drawing could mean you fall and break your leg.  Not dead, clearly a complication.  Refusal to pull meant non-lethal failure in the game at the task.

If the challenge is make a pull or be drawn into the mob of zombies, toppling the tower easily translates into being grabbed and eaten by zombies.  

If the player refuses to pull in the face of a direct threat, whats the advice for translating that into a non-lethal failure?

Or is the problem in the setup of the reason for the pull?


----------



## Cerebral Paladin

As with Piratecat, I've very rarely seen an incident where "pull or die?" was the logical consequence of a situation.  It did come up, once, in a variant Dread game I ran where one PC unleashed a massive attack on the other PCs, drawing several times and then deliberately knocking over the tower.  In that circumstance, we had the other PCs pull to survive (several players actually declined to pull, basically prioritizing the other PC's success over their characters' survival), and it worked okay, but it was a highly aberrational circumstance.

I think part of it is framing the pull.  "If you pull, you escape the zombie horde; if you don't pull, they catch you" is not a very good structure.  On the other hand, "if you pull, you get away from the horde safely, if you don't pull, something terrible happens as you try to escape" works better.  "You're trapped in the old apartment building, the zombies have smashed through the door, they're coming towards you."  "Can I get out through the door?"  "Maybe, but there's a bunch of zombies there.  You'd have to fight your way through them, and risk getting scratched and bitten.  You're an experienced martial artist, so two pulls will get you through cleanly."  "Okay, I go out the fire escape."  "Okay, they're right on your heels, you have to pull to make it down the fire escape safely."  "No way, the tower's too rickety.  I'm not pulling."  "Okay, you climb out onto the fire escape, but in your hurry, you slip and fall twenty feet to the pavement below.  Your right leg is now badly broken, you're bleeding, and you're on the ground.  Also, the zombies are starting to climb out onto the fire escape above you..."

If the player tried to fight through the zombies but refused to pull, "You get bitten, scratched, and gouged by the time you make it through--you've lost your left eye, and you're now infected with zombie-ism."  Later, "your buddy Pete helps you into the car, and you feel an almost uncontrollable urge to bite his meaty, juicy arm.  Pull to resist the urge."  Etc.

There's some discussion of this in the rulebook at p. 60-61 (under the heading Dead Ends).  Their example is refusing to pull to defuse a ticking bomb; do you cut the blue wire or the red wire?  If you pull, no problem, and if you pull and knock over the tower, then you screwed up and boom, but what if you refuse to pull?  They suggest as a last resort that the character could be forced into an action by refusing to pull--rather than cutting either of the wires, the character runs screaming away from the bomb, getting far enough away to survive, but perhaps not far enough to avoid injury.

As I said, it's a very rare situation.


----------



## Piratecat

Janx said:


> the example I recall from the quickplay rules was about crossing a beam, and not drawing could mean you fall and break your leg.  Not dead, clearly a complication.  Refusal to pull meant non-lethal failure in the game at the task.



I'd frame this as "if you don't pull, you can decide not to cross the beam." If I required two pulls to safely cross, pulling the first one but not the second would either result in the player falling, or (more entertainingly) leaving them stranded in the middle of the beam, knowing that any movement will result in their fall, while the creatures slithers towards them...

Ideally in that case, I then say, "If you want to grab the beam's edge, you may be able to drop to the ground without dying. It might hurt, though. Or you could always pull to finish making it safely across." I'd rather have the player choose to fall, instead of having it happen without warning. It makes the consequences that much more personal.

Likewise, I wouldn't say "Your leg is broken." I'd describe the jagged, stabbing pains of agony he feels every time he puts weight on it. Maybe I'd describe the white flash of something jutting out from the lower leg. Horror is all about being in the moment.  



> If the challenge is make a pull or be drawn into the mob of zombies, toppling the tower easily translates into being grabbed and eaten by zombies.
> 
> If the player refuses to pull in the face of a direct threat, whats the advice for translating that into a non-lethal failure?



I'm with Cerebral Paladin on this. "Well, you can pull to make it out safely. Or if you want, you can try to get past the zombies without pulling." Then I'd describe the bite, the growing hunger, the smell of brains...  and if they did finally knock down the tower, I'd have them go full zombie and turn on the other players.  So much more fun!


----------



## Janx

Cerebral Paladin said:


> I think part of it is framing the pull.  "If you pull, you escape the zombie horde; if you don't pull, they catch you" is not a very good structure.




this is a very useful discussion.  I don't have the book.  I really need to get one of my buddies to pick it up from the Source in Mpls if they still have it.

In the game I ran, it came up all the time, whenever an attack happened.  Obviously it's in how I framed it, but ignoring the "option to refuse" concept, it made as much sense as any other skill check in an RPG.

if a monster is attacking you, pull to defend.  Or pull to attack the monster.  Either way, it translates to make pulls to end/escape the encounter.

Since there's no hitpoints, there's a corner case where players could refuse to pull, and not be able to get killed.  Thus having a sort of perverse immunity.

With players fully engaged in the game, I don't think that corner case gets hit. Which is why PC and CP haven't really seen it happen.

By what CP is saying, the way I framed it was using the pull test as a bludgeon.  Refusal wasn't really apparent as an option.  That could be part of why i felt it was a bit railroady.

However, as the bomb example indicates, refusal seems to mean the GM is granted short term narrative authority (ooh big phrase).  I get to make you fall and break your leg (not forseen by the players as an outcome pre-decision), or make them run away from the bomb to justify their survival (yet make them look like a pansy).  or infect them and turn them against the party.

If I got CP's meaning right, that still makes sense:
make a pull to do something dangerous
if it topples, you die/removed from game
if you succeed, you retain awesomeness over your PC
if you refuse,  I hose your PC and make things worse for you/party


----------



## Cerebral Paladin

Yeah, I think that's right.  When I do attacks, for example, "pull to dodge" is common, but the consequences of not pulling are accumulating wounds, going slightly mad, being revealed as a coward in front of those whose respect you crave.  Like with any other pull, the host's job is to make the player WANT to pull, but still leave it up to them.  Injuries are the obvious example, but they're far from the only possibility.  I also think that if the players never refuse to pull, you need consequences that are less bad.  You want them making hard choices--do I wound the monster as it flees from its hit and run attack, even though that requires a pull?  Am I willing to pull to avoid breaking my leg, even though that might mean I die (or a friend dies on a later pull)?  How much do I care about preserving the Old Master painting that my grandfather brought with him when he fled the Nazis, the only bit of the family's connection to their history before the Holocaust?

It's worth noting that most of my experience is actually with a Dread variant oriented towards more heroic play, not with Dread itself, so injuries play out a little differently.   But I think the basic principle of if they don't pull, their legs get broken, their (NPC) friends, lovers, and relatives die, their truck gets wrecked, they lose their job, they become infamous, etc. works.  In no case do they have to pull... but if they don't, they might end up wishing that they had pulled, even if it killed them.


----------



## Janx

A different question then:

what situations entail asking for a pull?

Its been an established ploy in this thread to instigate some early pulls (when it is relatively safe) to prime the tower for when the real danger happens.

Is it a correct premise that pulls should be asked for when the PCs do dangerous things, not mundane easy things?

if so, do these two concepts come into conflict?

In my Dawn of the Dead style scenario, it's pretty easy to justify the 3-5 pulls everybody is making in the initial mad-calf scramble to escape the zombie in their house as being "dangerous" yet we really know the PCs will make it out because the tower is fresh.

What kinds of pulls might not actually be valid to require?  Basically checking from the experienced pool for "don't ask for a pull to flush the toilet, that's trivial" type examples to guide better Dread GMing.


----------



## Cerebral Paladin

I actually don't use "is it dangerous?" as my test for whether to pull.  I use "could you either fail or succeed?"  So, skimming through a book to try to find out more about the big bad isn't dangerous (at least, not most of the time).  But you could definitely fail or succeed, and it's not trivial in the sense of being uninteresting.  That's a great time for a pull.  If a character is trying to make a positive first impression, coming off as suave and sophisticated and sexy, that's something that they could either succeed or fail at--sounds like they need to pull.  If they don't pull, the PC comes off as an ass who's trying to pretend to be cool.  (If the character's questionnaire indicates that they are super cool and suave and sophisticated, they could be impressive under normal circumstances without a pull, and would only need to pull if something was extra challenging about the circumstances.)

That does mean that occasionally you get the inexplicable death--how did I get killed by a spot check?  But that can be "while you were distracted reading the book, you didn't notice someone slipping up behind you and cutting your throat."  Or that can be what the "dead man walking" rule is for.

This is a little different in the variant I normally run, since whether a task is easy enough to succeed at without a pull is more quantified in that variant.  But the basic question is, could you either succeed or fail, given your talents and abilities under the circumstances.  That can mean that quite difficult or dangerous tasks are no-pull tasks for some characters.  A PC is an experienced trauma surgeon, and with access to a full clinic needs to treat another character's broken bones and cuts from a werewolf attack, with plenty of time?  No pull, in my book.  An expert martial artist decides to beat up a random person to establish that he's in charge during the zombie apocalypse?  No pull.  The first is a difficult task, generically speaking, and the second is a dangerous task, generically speaking, but they're both easy for the character attempting it, so no pulls.  Change the scenario slightly--now the surgeon is treating injuries in the field, relying on a lousy first aid kit, or the martial artist is trying to beat down three people who are challenging his authority, and you need pulls.

One of the things I love to do is to set up the PCs to compete with each other.  One upsmanship can almost always trigger pulls.


----------



## Piratecat

Cerebral Paladin said:


> I actually don't use "is it dangerous?" as my test for whether to pull.  I use "could you either fail or succeed?"  So, skimming through a book to try to find out more about the big bad isn't dangerous (at least, not most of the time). ...  One of the things I love to do is to set up the PCs to compete with each other.  One upsmanship can almost always trigger pulls.



Use this to coax bonus pulls out of players, just for the opportunity to do something with style and panache. 

"Okay, professor, you've found the reference book the dead man had been checking. You can make a pull to find the relevant section on necrotic flesh, or take two pulls to do it so quickly and knowledgeably that it's clear to everyone around that you must know your stuff."

I will also ask players "do you want to make a pull for an unspecified reason?" When they do, I tell them something interesting they wouldn't otherwise have noted.

A pull is required when it's something that's possible but (a) has a chance of failure, and (b) it isn't clear from the questionnaire that the character is good at it. 

So "I punch the NPC in the face!" requires a pull unless the questionnaire mentioned that the PC has a history of violence. 

If it's a competition with another character, each side always makes pulls; if a skilled character is competing against an unskilled character, I'll probably have the unskilled character make 2 pulls to the skilled character's 1. As CP says, this sort of competition is a great and fun way to quickly loosen up the tower. I once had two PCs struggling over a loaded gun, everyone knowing that at any moment the gun could go off if the tower fell...


----------



## Janx

Piratecat said:


> "Okay, professor, you've found the reference book the dead man had been checking. You can make a pull to find the relevant section on necrotic flesh, or take two pulls to do it so quickly and knowledgeably that it's clear to everyone around that you must know your stuff."





I guess the odd side effect for pulling for Difficult or Flashy reasons rather than Dangerous reasons, is if the tower does fall right then (I have seen early topples in Jenga where the puller feels really stupid).

Drag racing or trying to lose a tail in a car has a pretty easy explanation, you crash the car and die.  Anybody else in the car could be asked to pull to escape unharmed (thus priming the tower right after the rebuild).

Reading a book, barring an Lovecraftian tome, not normally so dangerous.  CP mentions dead man walking as one solution.  I guess if no super obvious explanation is handy, the bad guy must've laid a trap or is hiding in the duct work to jump out and kill that person right then.


----------



## Piratecat

Janx said:


> CP mentions dead man walking as one solution.



In my experience it's the best solution. Way more fun than the alternative early on in a game. I never run a game that doesn't consider how to treat someone who knocks the tower over early. I prefer methods that make them an integral part of the plot, possibly as the villain's catspaw.

For example, in a haunted house adventure, the Dead Man Walking player has accidentally broken through the spirit veil. They start seeing ghostly hallucinations that no one else can see, and start showing signs of a breakdown. At any time they may be possessed. At some point they may die and a ghost may possess their body -- but the PC continues to walk around with the other PCs. The dramatically appropriate point when you say "make a random pull," they do, and they notice their friend isn't breathing? Pure gold.


----------



## Rodrigo Istalindir

One of the design goals of my 'Soul Riders' scenario was to explicitly accommodate the 'Dead Man Walking' option.


----------



## Janx

Piratecat said:


> In my experience it's the best solution. Way more fun than the alternative early on in a game. I never run a game that doesn't consider how to treat someone who knocks the tower over early. I prefer methods that make them an integral part of the plot, possibly as the villain's catspaw.




So to sum up:
ask for a pull when the PC is doing something that they are not skilled at or is risky or hard

if the tower falls early, or for a "non-dangerous" pull, use the Dead Man Walking to keep the PC in the game longer and to allow for a better use of their death.

if the PC refuses to pull, they suffer a non-lethal failure with possible complication comensurate to the significance of the challenge.  Refusing a pull to read the book simply means they don't get the answer from the book.  Refusing to pull versus the zombies means they will likely be injured, but not killed, thus slowing them down, etc.

for combat, a successful pull might be described as dodging an attack, escaping the attack or even a successful hit or kill, whatever seems appropriate to the situation.

Does all that sound about right?


----------



## Piratecat

Janx, that sounds right on the money.


----------



## Rel

Piratecat said:


> In my experience it's the best solution. Way more fun than the alternative early on in a game. I never run a game that doesn't consider how to treat someone who knocks the tower over early. I prefer methods that make them an integral part of the plot, possibly as the villain's catspaw.




How awesome was the look on Elaine's face when you told her that her head came hurtling out of the darkness to roll into the torchlight on the beach during Separation Anxiety!?  She'd been dead woman walking for at least 45 minutes by that point!


----------



## Janx

Rel said:


> How awesome was the look on Elaine's face when you told her that her head came hurtling out of the darkness to roll into the torchlight on the beach during Separation Anxiety!?  She'd been dead woman walking for at least 45 minutes by that point!




here's a curious point, doesn't the dean man walking know they are a dead man walking?  They did know the tower over, and were allowed to continue anyway.  Wouldn't the players all remember that and be waiting for the big reveal?


----------



## Rel

Janx said:


> here's a curious point, doesn't the dean man walking know they are a dead man walking?  They did know the tower over, and were allowed to continue anyway.  Wouldn't the players all remember that and be waiting for the big reveal?




That was the beauty of the moment.  She knew she was dead woman walking but her character was still in the game.  She was interacting with the rest of the PC's and NPC's and generally enjoying what was an amazingly fun game.  Then suddenly, horribly, she was decapitated.  The look of shock on her face as she realized she was dead (even though she knew it was coming) was priceless.  Actually the rest of the group was pretty flabbergasted as well.


----------



## malcolypse

Thread Necromancy!

I'm going to be running a game of Dread this weekend, and thought of this thread. Just wanted to get it back into the loop, to see if anyone has anymore Tales of Dread to share.


----------



## Rel

For all the many times I've played Dread, I finally ran my first session of it a couple of months ago.  Rather than it being a one-shot, I ran it as a session of my ongoing Savage Worlds game when the party briefly ventured into the spirit realm.  It worked extremely well as a way of changing the game when they radically changed setting.  Because of this, there were some variations from standard Dread, but I'm very pleased with how it all worked.

First, knocking over the tower did not result in death but rather the PC in question being ejected from the spirit realm.  Since they were there to accomplish a very important mission this was still a serious consequence.

Also there was no need for questionnaires since we already had a very good grasp on who the PCs were.  Their capabilities, strengths and motivations were all very clear by that point of the campaign.  But I did want to add in a further bit of mechanical differentiation so I borrowed a concept from Dread House:  The Courage Pile.

The Courage Pile starts as one block per player that is set to the side of the tower.  Any time a player made a pull for an action in game that was "their main thing", I allowed them to _optionally _place the block they pulled on the Courage Pile instead of back on the tower.  When I say "their main thing", I mean that I designated a particular kind of action that I felt exemplified that PCs role in the party.  For one PC it was physical attacks, for another it was using magic and for a third it was diplomacy/persuasion.

Then, as a way to combine this with Savage Worlds, I allowed players to spend a Bennie (sort of like Action Points/Hero Points) to, in lieu of making a regular pull, take a block from the Courage Pile and place it on the tower.

What this effectively does is to split a pull into two "half-pulls", making things a bit easier on the players when they both play to their strengths and also use up a limited in-game resource.  I liked the way it put additional choices into the hands of the players but I do note that part of the reason it probably worked well was that I only had three players.  If I had had six players pulling blocks into the Courage Pile all the time then it might have gotten dicey because less blocks in the tower makes the game harder for the players.  Of course then again that might ratchet up the tension fast too.


----------



## Plane Sailing

Rel said:


> That was the beauty of the moment.  She knew she was dead woman walking but her character was still in the game.  She was interacting with the rest of the PC's and NPC's and generally enjoying what was an amazingly fun game.  Then suddenly, horribly, she was decapitated.  The look of shock on her face as she realized she was dead (even though she knew it was coming) was priceless.  Actually the rest of the group was pretty flabbergasted as well.




I was there too, and even though we knew she was a dead man walking, it was still shocking!


----------



## Eunomiac

*Wow, Fantastic Read!*

I've spent the last several days reading every page in this thread (and it was worth it; I must have ten pages of notes).  Thanks to everyone!

I'll be running "Beneath the Full Moon" on the 16th for a few friends and their girlfriends, the latter of whom were up-sold into playing and are not gamers.  As has been the case with many a first-time Host on this thread, I have a few questions for the more experienced among you:

I'm going to have 4 hours, MAX, to run BtFM, with five players.   Further adding to my time crunch, I want to keep things casual for the non-gamers, so I won't be sending the questionnaires out early.  Up until three or four pages ago, I didn't think I'd have a problem, but there's been a lot of recent discussion about how long questionnaires take and now I'm getting worried.

I plan to split each questionnaire into four sets of 3-4 questions; they can hand each set in when they're done, so that I can start integrating answers on a rolling basis.  I plan to do round-table introductions after the _third _set, leaving the interpersonal questions to the fourth set, after the players know each others' characters.

I _really _don't want our time to come to an end before reaching a satisfying conclusion, though of course I'm very aware of this possibility given the difficulty of pacing this game for a first-time Host.  To that end, there are two main areas in which I'm looking for advice:

1) Aside from my "rolling answer sets" plan above, can you suggest anything else I might to do accelerate the whole questionnaire process (questions/answers/character intros/follow-up interpersonals/integrating into the plot)?  Are there any pitfalls you see with my divide-and-conquer plan of attack?  How much of those four precious hours should I use before cracking the whip and starting the game?

2) After that whip has cracked, is there anything you can tell me that might help me keep the game on schedule?  I've read a lot about pacing, but I'd love it if someone would attempt to loosely explain the general "flow" of a three-act Dread game, especially when run with new players: I'd really like to be able to gauge "where I am" throughout the game in terms of timing. Are there parts of the game that typically go faster than others, or times where the game slows down?  And just as a loose ballpark figure, how much time should I leave for a satisfying Act III?   But forget those questions:  Absolutely any general advice on reaching a satisfying ending within my time constraints would be greatly appreciated!  

3) ... okay, so I just thought of a third.  Imagine the worst possible time for the tower to fall, in terms of pacing towards a satisfying climax (I'm thinking shortly before that climax, when I've got precious little time to bounce back, but maybe there's an even worse time than that).  What would you do if the tower fell at precisely that moment?  How might I recover from that untimeliest of untimely tumbles, get the game back on track, and still reach that satisfying ending I so desperately crave?

Thanks in advance (and I will of course post results after I've run it)!


----------



## malcolypse

Eunomiac.

1.  I'd suggest knocking out some of the "Fluff" questions, maybe taking each questionnaire from a dozen or so questions to eight or nine. Lose things like "Tell me about your favorite pet" in favor of making your four stages of rolling answers into three. The depth of character creation might suffer a bit, but you really want to be sure to get them into the game ASAP and let them try out the visceral feel of being prey, because that's what'll get 'em hooked.  

I really like the idea of the rolling answers, and may try to incorporate that into my future Dread games.

2.  The timing of the game is very fluid, and lots of good advice has been put forward throughout this thread. I'd say that the whip should crack after about 30 or 40 minutes, maximum. Then plan on each act taking about an hour, that way when they run long you still have a few minutes to play with. I'd say get them moving towards the final showdown at least 45 minutes before time's up.

3.  I had nearly the same thing happen the last time I ran that game. Worst case scenario, if they knock down the tower and you need to quickly set them up for a harrowing finale, have the monster jump them, and make them make "x" number of attack pulls to put it down, while making them pull to dodge "y" number of attacks, where "x+y" is equal to the number of pulls you think the tower has before falling minus one or two, so there's a good chance one of them will have to make a sacrifice to save the day.

Here was my response to a game where they were stubbornly refusing to make pulls. (Some people would rather hike on a sprained ankle now then have to fight a werewolf with a rickety tower later. Wimps.)

I spread x+y over several fights. They would injure it and run away (they had made contact with a helicopter pilot, but they had to meet him down river a few miles, where he could land safely due to less wind shear) and it would heal and catch up to them. They finally got some canoes in the water and were making good time, after one of them with a bad ankle had decided to stay behind and buy them some time. 

Instead of letting him just knock the tower over and win the day for them, I passed him a note that said something along the lines of "I'll owe you one if you just let me narrate your fate for them and don't make a pull. Roll with it. You'll live, and you'll love it. Just work with me at the end." 

He nodded, so I spun his tale of sitting with his back against a tree between the last fight and the river with a lighter and one of the girl's hairspray. 

Then I completely cut scenes to the launching of the boats, and told the party they heard a scream from back in the woods.

I had the final wolf battle in the water. It was epic and in the end one of the players rolled against another player to steal their handgun(they were unwilling to pull against him since the tower was already so raggedy), then knock the tower over. 

He explained how the next time he caught sight of the wolf he was going to leap onto it's back. It was waiting for him and snatched him out of the air by the throat, and he stuck the pistol into it's left ear and pulled the trigger. It's skull opened up like a tube of refrigerated biscuits, his throat opened up like a shaken can of soda, and they both disappeared into the river.

There was a short round of applause.

Any way, they made it down to the helicopter, and as they were boarding they saw the friend who had stayed behind running out of the woods towards them. 

I had just handed him a note that said, "the werewolf got behind you without you noticing. It knocked the can out of your hand before you could react, then slowly bent down and bit you hard on the leg. As it raises it's head it winks at you, then it runs towards the river. Your leg starts to heal..."

He boards the chopper with his friends and a new gleam in his eye.

The end.

You can make a satifying ending happen even in the worst conditions if you work well with your players.


----------



## Cerebral Paladin

Re: tower falling at the wrong time:  Most of the time, this isn't a problem in my experience.  Remember that if the tower gets rebuilt, there are some autopulls to get it going again--3 per time it has fallen.  The other thing is, have some tricks to get a lot of pulls going.  Things that make everyone pull are great for this--things that make people pull competitively are even better.  So, the tower falls shortly before the werewolf attacks.  Throw in a bit where the werewolf howls, inspiring paralyzing and embarrassing fear in anyone who doesn't pull.  For that matter, a friend has just died--you can totally have them pull to not lose their cool about that.  Since the tower is fresh, you should get lots of pulls if people have motivations like looking macho.  You can then have them pull to look totally cool.  And then have the werewolf attack, and anyone who wants to stay in the boat/not fall off the wall they're climbing/whatever has to pull.  Now you've got like 3+4+2+4 pulls (=13, a pretty stable tower but one that's starting to feel dangerous), and you're going into the final fight.  It'll be fine.

If it happens later than that--you're in the final fight, and the tower falls for the first time, then it may be time to basically wrap it up.  The wolf turns to flee, carrying off Betty's dead body, and the rest of the PCs can escape with one pull.  If they want to turn it into a chase, great--that will chew up enough pulls to get scary again.  If you want to go denoument right there, it will be fine.

I ran a Dread game (with modified rules, giving each PC one tower fall without dying) last weekend, and the tower fell 8 times in 4.5 hours (killing one PC and using up every other PC's free fall).  The key was competing against each other and "everyone has to pull or something bad happens to their character."  That plus 7 players really chewed through the tower.  It was kinda awesome, and kinda horrifying.


----------



## Eunomiac

*Thanks for the great advice!*

Just a quick thank you to the fantastic advice, some of which (not to slight its helpfulness in the least!) was so obvious I kick myself for not thinking of it first, e.g., "reduce the number of questions to reduce question & answer time", duh!

I've also created a TON of little props and handouts and whatnot, and I'd love to make them available to give something meager back to the community for this amazing thread.  I've attached the initial handout .pdf I sent to my players to help them choose characters* (replete with Anasazi ruins red herrings/clues?), just by way of example, but I'm not sure where I should submit the rest for others to enjoy.  Much of it is BtfM-themed, but as I play more scenarios, I'll create more, as I love graphic design.  Includes:


cave-painting stickers to write complications (injuries, etc.) on, including a sick (if I do say so myself) "dead man walking" sticker, all of which affix to ...
... Grand Canyon-themed ID-badges, hung by lanyards around the neck (with the button-clip extending out the bottom so they can clip it to their clothes, avoiding unfortunate dangling-card tower-topples): they'll write their names on each, and the idea is each player will stare across the table at the ever-mounting list of complication-stickers around each player's neck
equipment cards for all of the personal/portable equipment listed in the scenario—they're 2.5"x3.5" (half that for flares/matches/etc), so they can be sleeved if you have old CCG sleeves lying around; includes a backpack for each player:  they'll keep their equipment cards under the backpack card, so that if the backpack is lost, so is everything under it...
larger cards, designed to be folded and stood, for things like tents, rafts, food supply, shredded tent:  they'll cluster around the tower, a clear list of the shared/bigger equipment the group needs to worry about transporting
4"x6" theme/scene templates in word for printing out (two to a page) the pulls/host-advice for each scene or theme, with about 1/3 saved for integrating notes from questionnaires; used by the host in a small binder as s/he walks around the table behind the players (*love* that idea, PirateCat!)
an excel spreadsheet of over 1200 questions, gleaned from every available supplement and scenario I've found** — and that's 1200 EXCLUDING those from the core book, which I haven't found an easy way of adding yet; includes columns for rating/flagging the best questions, as well as columns for flagging interpersonal questions, strengths/weaknesses, basic establishing questions, questions for adding conflict/trust, fears, etc...
a sorted summary of the notes I took from reading through this thread, as well as the one at tiltingatwindmills.net
So yeah, a bit of boasting, I admit:  Sometimes I end up neglecting game prep for projects like these, lol   But if I can find somewhere to host it, you won't have to!

* locations I cite in the itinerary have no relation whatsoever to their actual placement in the Grand Canyon; my players have never been!
** Because I tried to keep entire questionnaires intact where I found them, this number includes repeats (though I've been flagging them as "Repeat" where I can, so they can be filtered out).  Also, copyright issues, but I've marked each question's source, so I can remove everything that isn't public domain before submitting.


----------



## malcolypse

That handout is great. Just the thing to start them off right. 

Have you thought about what to do if more than one person shows up only wanting to play the philosophy major?

The amount of work you've put into it is inspiring. I'd like to steal, err, see all the other goodies that you've got lined up for your players, too.

Attach it here or set it up somewhere on the internets (have a look at obsidian portal) and link to it. 

I have round about a dozen games of Dread under my belt (sadly never as a player).

I'm always interested in other people's approach to the storyteller side of things. Your equipment cards and stand-ups are amazing, and that sort of thing is easy to forget in a standard roleplaying game with equipment lists, much less in a Dread game.

Keep us appraised of the game, I'm always exited to read about a Dread game (just look at my status), especially when it involves something that is new and innovative to me.


----------



## Piratecat

I love the itinerary!


----------



## Eunomiac

*Session Report: Beneath the Full Moon*

Well the 16th has come and gone, as did our game of Beneath the Full Moon with me as first-time Host.  As promised, here's my session write-up!  I also have some observations/tips/ideas/brainwaves, which I'll post immediately after.

*Spoiler Note: * This is a full session report for *Beneath the Full Moon*, the first scenario in the Dread core book.  If you anticipate playing through it in the future, please stop now -- there are spoilers even in the character descriptions.

*Cast of Characters:*

*Chad (Economics):* A cold-hearted fellow who killed his parents for his inheritance, and abuses oxy and cocaine to overcome his "physical limitations."  Since I sent out the questions in rolling sets, I was able to tweak later ones after getting answers for earlier ones:  The guide dumped his oxy supply (not his beer), and I had him give me oxy withdrawal symptoms AND an unexpected benefit of that withdrawal.  Result?  A restless, jumpy psychopath with occasional hallucinations... but a hyper-alert, light sleeper.  
*Chantal (Philosophy):*  Aside from being the sharpest and most rational of them all (CON: wouldn't believe in the supernatural even when glowing red eyes were staring her in the face), she was a cake decorator by trade (PROs: steadiest hands in the group---icing is finnicky work).  Had a crippling fear of water, which was... well, crippling 
*Crystal, pronounced "Cri-STAHL" (Fashion Design):  *A lazy, whiny, leather-clad princess, convinced that she'd be saved by the throngs of people sure to miss her absence.  Cared not a whit for the group, but did take a motherly liking to the Freshman.  Her "MOST useful member of the group" question gave her an unexpected background in hunting---she got into fashion quite unexpectedly, by hunting, skinning and tanning her own leather.
*Darryl (Freshman):*  Player loved knowing the werewolf secret, so I was happy to arm him with a silver pendant, which turned out great in the climax.  Considered geology/archaeology as majors, and read Darwin's "Origin of Species" 20 times, so I fed a lot of information about the beast and the canyon through him.  Fierce independent streak, so I had him make pulls whenever people disagreed with him to avoid him going off on his own in a huff.
*Eric (Engineering): * (Formerly "Casey", but I vetoed a fourth C-name for my own sanity.)  Became a chemical engineer to go into vengeful chemical weapons manufacturing (!) after his father was wounded in Desert Storm.  Blew off a project dealing with phosphorous to go on the trip, so he got to do some fun things with those flares.  Paranoid of strangers and suspected everyone else in the group (PRO: better able to spot sneaky shenanegans of others).  Hated insects and was afraid of the dark (PRO: driven to keep that fire going!)---more fun phobias!

*Session Report:*

This may be one of the shortest run-throughs of Beneath the Full Moon, because of the time crunch I mentioned above, people showing up late, and the fact that the first scene was so damn slow.

Before I got a feel for the pacing of the game, I asked for too many pulls in the opening scene (e.g. check the guide, stabilize the guide, keep your cool, search his tent for the backpack, create a stretcher, carry the stretcher, avoid injury on the rocks, avoid dropping the guide...).  When you multiply many of those pulls by the 5 players making them, I quickly noticed two problems.  First, the game was draaaaaaagging: a wounded guide and an empty campsite does not an hour's entertainment make.  Second, I found myself ramping up to a treacherous tower before they'd even hit the rafts:  Chad knocked it over while carrying the guide down the path.  Unwilling to let him out of the game this early, I shattered his leg and made him Dead Man Painfully Limping.  He'd play an instrumental part in the story, which I've learned is _the _redeeming feature of the initially-unappealing "Dead Man Walking" rule.

Taking advantage of the release of tension following the tower collapse, I bamfed them into the rafts and onto the river without many more pulls, setting them up for some easy rapids with a fairly stable tower.  (I introduced them to the stalking wolf the minute they hit the river, because the game had gone far too long without the beast turning up.)  But as I switched to my second playlist (Playlist 1: "Isolation", Playlist 2: "Dread", Playlist 3: "Panic" <-- very useful divisions!) and turned up some rapids sound effects, the atmosphere got a little too intense for "easy rapids."  So, out came the crazy pull-fest:  Pull to avoid capsize! Now everyone pull to avoid going overboard!  Now pull to avoid losing your pack!  To avoid vomiting!  To not break an oar!  To avoid losing broken-legged Chad!  ... Now, raft two, repeat!

Amazingly, EVERYBODY made EVERY pull, never declining, and the tower was teetering by the time they were out.  They _all _risked death to avoid _sea-sickness._  I must have scored 20 pulls out of the rapids alone.

Looking at the time, I realized the game was running long.  So, I quickly accelerated to a Friday-night climax:  I had the wolf appear on the opposite side of the rapids, scaring them with its impossible ability to keep pace, and offered Chantal the Philosopher _(with the map/compass)_ a pull to find a good campsite, where they built a fire with a flare.  Amazingly, despite Chad and I both making no secret of it, no one noticed Chad's shattered leg had apparently healed all on its own.  I didn't even offer them a pull to notice this, since I was all but telling them for free, and besides, you can't buy this sort of "gotcha" foreshadowing.  Chad and Daryll spooned with the guide in a tent to keep him warm (aww) while Eric and Chantal took the other tent.  Princess Crystal took first watch... which was a terrible, terrible mistake, since she promptly declined the pull to stay awake.

The result?  "Fight Around the Bonfire" begins with everyone asleep in their tents, and Crystal asleep on a stump in the middle of the camp site.  I cackled, and Crystal... oh, poor Crystal.

I changed my playlist to "Panic", made some (remarkably Werewolf-sounding) Lion noises with my speakers, and terrified Princess Crystal by regailing her with how completely exposed and unconscious she was.  I even positioned myself over the teetering tower so she couldn't look away from it; I hoped she was deciding which of her limbs was her favorite.

Even though I fully expected to take Epidiah's advice against running "round-by-round" combat, this scene fell quite naturally into it just given the dynamics of things, so pardon the detail I go into as I think it's a nice counter-example of how it can work in chaotic situations (i.e. not where everyone's surrounding something and whacking it with sticks).  Starting with the Werewolf, everyone got a free action, and they could pull for each additional action (e.g. you can grab your knife, leave your tent, OR pull to do both).

*Round 1*

*Werewolf: * Makes a beeline for Crystal, who's still asleep.  I offered her four pulls:  Wake + React + Dodge Full Hit + Avoid Side-Swipe.  She made three of them, taking a brutal "Savage Shoulder Gash" major injury complication from that side-swipe.
*Crystal, in the open: * Declines a pull to avoid panicking, and already had a "Haunted By Blood" psychological complication, so she was on the verge of snapping.  She did little more than crab-walk away from the beast, sobbing and weeping, as it vaulted off the cliff face, came full-circle, and bore down on her again.  Everyone else?  _Still asleep__ in their comfy tents!_
*Daryll, in the guide-sandwich with Chad: * He wanted to wake up, leap from that tent, and hurl his silver pendant at the beast.  I offered five pulls:  Wake + Exit Tent + Grab Pendant + Throw Pendant + Telling Blow.  But I stopped him as he went for his "Exit Tent" pull, and offered him an immediate pull to "notice something."  I was CERTAIN he wouldn't take it, given the three/four pulls ahead of him and the ridiculously tall tower, but he DID, and noticed something... BEHIND him.  
*Chad:*  It was _Chad_---frothing-at-the-mouth Chad, with red eyes, standing on an unbroken leg, lunging for Daryll's neck.  Ooops!  Dead Werewolf No-Longer-Limping! (Must have caught something from the guide's blood...)  Daryll abandons his original plan, pulling to dodge Chad-wolf instead, careening out of the tent and into the open.  Now there are two werewolves in our "round-by-round" combat.  Huzzah!
*Chantal, in the tent with Eric: * She pulled to wake up and grab her combat knife.  Her questionnaire described her as unrelentingly rational, so I demanded she make a pull before she'd believe she was facing anything other than a big animal seasoned with hallucinations brought on by exposure and/or exhaustion.  She declined, so was happy (relatively speaking) with stainless steel against this "rabid grizzly." 
*Eric: * He pulls to wake up and grab the flare gun.  _(Both Eric and Chantal declined to pull to leave the tent.)_

*Round 2*

*Werewolf: * Poor Crystal; she's still the only one in the werewolf's sights!  Another three pulls:  Shake Off Panic + Dodge + Avoid Side-Swipe.  She declined the first, but made the other two.  I swear we must have been at about 40 pulls by now.  My "Panic" playlist was not helping their nerves. 
*Chad-wolf: * Pursues Daryll out of the tent and lunges at him again, trying to grapple him.  Daryll declines to pull to dodge (after I confirmed it was a grapple attempt---Chad-wolf was trying to protect his master and, as a not-quite-werewolf-yet, he lacked those lethal teeth and claws).  Daryll gets tangled up in Chad-wolf, this time with no guide between them.
*Crystal: * Declines ANOTHER pull to avoid panicking, making it her third.  Three strikes, you snap:  She scrambled to her feet and fled headlong into the brush.  I immediately asked her if she was stealing a raft: She answered yes, so I wrote her a note saying she had ... survived!  (I have a soft spot for selfish princesses in horror movies; they have an unfairly high death rate for their crimes.)
*Daryll: * Grappling with Chad-wolf, he wanted to shove that silver pendant down Chad-wolf's throat.  It took him three pulls (Resist Grapple + Grab Pendant + Down the Gullet), and Chad-wolf's throat exploded.  Typical zombie-movie logic applied as to why explosive head-gore did not infect Daryll.
*Chantal:  *A bit of a Jenga-show-off, this one.  I offered her four pulls, on a tower that was almost as tall as she was:  Exit Tent + Get to Wolf + Hit Wolf + Telling Blow, despite (as a player) knowing it would do little harm.  She makes them all, and our werewolf takes his first real injury:  A six-inch serrated blade neatly impaling one blood-red eye.  Of course, this just makes him angry, and now the biological equivalent of a freight train is bearing down on Chantal and, directly behind her, the tent still housing Eric.
*Eric: * In a PERFECTLY climactic moment, his knowledge of phosphorous comes to the fore as he recalls that flares also include silver nitrate (do they? hell if I know).  He takes his "free" action to leave the tent, then actually rolls his eyes at the tower before announcing his heroic sacrifice:  charging the one-eyed, one-knifed werewolf and jamming that flare down its throat (still wide open, screaming in pain---1 pt. assist from Chantal... GOAL!).  CRASH goes the tower, Eric looses his arm and most of his torso, and the werewolf's upper body explodes in molten red and orange fire, to match the brightening sunrise on the horizon.

And that's that!  All-in-all, a fun ride... _with_ the exception of the first scene---my criticisms of which, I think, would also apply to many of the scenes I left out due to the time crunch.  (I _call_ them criticisms, but as I'm a first-time Host, I think a lot of these concerns will evaporate as I find my sea legs.)
*
CRITICISMS/CONCERNS 
(Specific to Beneath the Full Moon)*



I found a lot of scenes seemed to beg for more pulls than they were "worth" in terms of the fear they'd instill or plot they'd advance.  Pulls dragged out these scenes, and delayed the introduction of some truly frightening themes (the beast).  Of course one can cut some of the pulls, but I'm talking specifically about scenes where a lot has to happen that really _should_ require a pull.  

Take the opening scene, where the guide is discovered and carried back to the rafts.  You've got psychological pulls, pulls to stabilize the guide, pulls to build a stretcher, pulls to carry him back over the rocky terrain, pulls to secure him into the raft... all with very little "dread" beyond what the players know immediately upon hearing the introduction: guide is incapacitated, we're screwed.  Throw in even a bit of interpersonal conflict over leadership and, unless it involves ALL of the players, you're going to have some people getting restless for _something _to happen.
I also found a lot of the listed scenes were repetitive in tone:  "You see a wolf."  "You think you see a beast."  "You think you hear a beast."  "You think you hear a splash."  My motive for shortening the game was time crunch, but I think it was better for it:  opening scene, one set of rapids with the stalking wolf on either side, then right into a Friday night (not Saturday night) climax.  I think the scenario would benefit from some more variety:  perhaps seeing evidence of a campsite from a distance, only to discover it's been torn to pieces; or multiple werewolves, with an emphasis (in the questionnaires or scenario) on splitting up the group.
*Question*

One thing I had difficulty with was in fitting the story/roleplay in between the pulls: So much of it was "make three pulls: one to do this, another to do this, and a third to do this. ok you succeed and now you need to pull to do this, and ok, and now you need to..."  It was almost as if narration/roleplay had to _interrupt_ the game -- a "wait, let's roleplay what just happened" sort of thing.  Any advice on how to knit the pulling/roleplaying together a bit more tightly?


----------



## Eunomiac

*Tips from a Newbie Host*

Okay, here are some of the tips/advice/ideas/etc. I picked up while playing through my first game as Host.

*Questionnaires:*

Given the time it takes to fill in questionnaires, the value of filling in questionnaires at the table instead of handing them out in advance, and the difficulty for the Host to meaningfully fold so many answers into a scenario, I think there's a solid argument to be made _against_ including "fluff" questions that aren't going to be incorporated into the story.  

Casual players especially are going to struggle over something like "Did Shakespeare really write all his plays?" only to get frustrated when all their struggling "doesn't matter" because there wasn't a Shakespeare-zombie to make their answer relevant.  Sure, there are reasons in favor of them, but overall I just think the cost/benefit ratio is against them in a game with so little time for character development.

Three things that worked _really _well after my experience with the questionnaires:


As much as possible, use the _actual language_ in each players' answers, particularly unique turns of phrase that stick out.  These verbal cues are subtle yet effective ways to alert them that their answers are mattering.  E.g. my Economics Major, Chad, regretted murdering his mother when it was only his Dad he was out to kill (swell guy, really).  His answer ended with, _"she wasn't supposed to be there... she wasn't supposed to be there... she wasn't supposed to be there..."_.  So, when the Fashion Major was in danger, I turned to Chad's player and said "she's got a two-year-old waiting for her at home... she shouldn't be here... _she isn't supposed to be here..._"  It was great to see his eyes light up upon realizing the connection to his answer; that surfacing awareness packs more of a punch than the more direct "she's a mom too, and here's your chance for redemption" or some such.  Simpler cues work too, of course: the Freshman didn't want to die a "coward", so any time I used the word "coward" he knew exactly what I was getting at; the Engineer went into chemical engineering for chemical weapons design to _"Make. Them. Suffer."_---so I'd encourage him to go chasing after monsters after a hit-and-run _"...to make. It. Suffer."

_
This one's perhaps obvious, and goes with my advice in the first paragraph of this section:  Try to find something meaningful in each answer, however strange.  Kind of like Aspects in FATE, I was always looking for both a benefit and a detriment.  I struggled over "cake decorator" for awhile, until I came up with "steady hands" and "focused" -- which was very useful when it came to suturing up wounds or keeping watch.  Equally obviously, this doesn't have to come from the answers: failing a botany exam implies some knowledge of plants, whatever the answer given.
*RELATIONSHIP MAP.  *So useful. Write each character's name down on a piece of paper, including key NPCs, in a rough circle.  As interpersonal questions come in, draw connecting lines labeled with things like "hates" or "stole money from" or "played prank on", etc.  Not only does it make a very easy reference, it helps you set up PvP when you need tower attrition, and it can give you big-picture insights into group dynamics you might otherwise miss.
*THE TOWER:
*
One thing I noticed about the tower has to do with "pull thresholds" (i.e. the level of complexity/difficulty at which you would ask someone to make a pull).  At first, I thought it was best to keep this consistent:  If it would take two pulls to suture up a wound with a stable tower, it should _always_ take two pulls.  But then I realized that this game is about _pacing_ and _feel_.  As long as you aren't being inconsistent (e.g. reducing something that once took two pulls to a single pull), I think it's perfectly fine to reduce the pull threshold when the tower is more rickety, especially if you're trying to preserve the tower for an imminent climax.  My rule of thumb is that, as long as my players are fearing that tower and dreading my pulls, then all I need to worry about is pacing:  not having the tower fall _immediately_ before a satisfying climax.

*SOUND:
*
*It. Is. WORTH IT. *

*Music:* Grab some solid horror/sci-fi/surreal movie soundtracks _(Donnie Darko, 28 Days Later, 28 Weeks Later, Dog Soldiers, Inception) _and/or video game scores _(BIOSHOCK, BIOSHOCK 2)_, load 'em into your iPod, and rate them 1, 2 or 3 for three levels of "Dread".  I use "Isolation" (light fare, with a surreal or creepy twist, for most of Act 1), "Dread" (dark fare, but still fairly ambient -- pretty much anything obviously horror but not heart-pounding fits here -- for most of Act 2), and "Panic" for climactic scenes, as well as high-energy scenes in earlier acts (e.g. rapids).  

*Sound Effects: *Even moreso than music, my players responded VERY well to ambient sound effects:  campfires, running water, insects & birds, wind, etc.  You can run multiple versions of WinAmp simultaneously, for an impromptu layering of sounds:  have owls hooting in one WinAmp, crickets in another, a campfire in a third and you have a perfect night scene.  A fourth WinAmp can include short cues, like monster sounds or snakes rattling or what have you.  Then run iTunes for your music, with three playlists for each of your three categories of music, then switch between those playlists when the mood shifts -- all on a single laptop screen, which you can set aside and move over to whenever someone's making a pull.  You might need to fiddle with the volume balance a bit, but it's not hard to do that in-game from your laptop while people are pulling.

I can't emphasize enough how effective this is, and how worth the effort it is to put it together!


----------



## Eunomiac

*Finally, A Variant Idea*

I thought about this while I was getting all frustrated that Economics Major Chad hadn't fought harder for the group leadership role:  For some scenarios, I'd want a real incentive for players to go a certain way.  Sometimes I'm going to want to do a scenario that depends on certain player actions, or just as a way to have some control over PvP.  So, I thought about introducing a new type of question: the "agenda."  

*Agendas*

Unlike typical questions, agendas come in two parts.  The first part, in bold, sets a condition that the player can satisfy during the course of the story. The condition should be as clearly-defined as possible, so there can be no doubt whether it was satisfied or not.  The second part is your basic question, typically regarding the condition to be satisfied.  At the end of the game, whether people survive or not (though either could be part of the agenda's condition!), they're also recognized for satisfying their agenda.  You could do all sorts of things with this -- even include multiple agendas, with point values for scoring:


*[You are formally elected as the leader of this group by a majority vote at least once before the end of the scenario. (10 pts.)]*  How do you intend to do this, and why do you expect the rest of the group will follow you?
*[The group is divided and in at least two separate locations by the end of the scenario. (5 pts.)]*  Why do you want to keep the group separated?
*[You publically and correctly accuse at least one other character of murder. (5 pts for each correct accusation; -5 pts for each false accusation)]*  As a bounty hunter in search of a killer, what evidence led you here?


----------



## malcolypse

Eunomanic, it sounds like everything went well and you all had a blast. 

Now, after a virtuoso entry to Dread, you have to face the problem of getting one of your players to run it so you can play.

Turnabout and all that.


----------



## Eunomiac

*Agendas: BRILLIANT*

Okay, I'm not normally one to toot my own horn, but I thought I might really be on to something with my idea for "Agenda" questions (two posts back), and after running "Beneath the Full Moon" again with some Agendas, I'm convinced:

*Agendas Rock!

*Here is my tweaked set of questions for Beneath the Full Moon, reduced all the way down to six + one interpersonal question, which was handed out after character introductions (it was a casual game with non-gamers, so I figured I'd ease them in with as little prep as I could).  The "agendas" are clearly marked, and all six of them created marvelous interaction between players that might otherwise have struggled to find "hooks" to latch onto the story:

*The Philosophy Major*


_"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy,"_ wrote Shakespeare.  What does your philosophy include that a modern-day Horatio wouldn't dream of?
What favorite hobby did you use to pursue, but gave up when you came to college?
You joined a fraternity/sorority, and while you've enjoyed the experience overall, one initiation rite crossed the line into hazing.  How does it still haunt you?
Now that the guide is incapacitated, what will you be doing or saying to subtly manipulate the others into treating you as the leader?
What's the worst thing you've ever done to a loved one?
You know something that no one else does.  This knowledge has convinced you that, without your guide, you're all going to die unless rescuers find you.  What is it that you know?


Who among the others are you fiercely protective of, and why?
*[AGENDA: This character survives the story, even if you do not.]*
*The Economics Major*


You majored in economics mostly to spite your controlling father.  What degree had _he _planned for you?
What item did you bring on this trip, despite it being forbidden?  _(Technological devices, additional survival gear, dangerous items, drugs, and alcohol are forbidden.  Some other item may have been forbidden, too:  This is entirely up to you!)_
While the brochure _did _describe this trip as “challenging”… you wish you’d realized they meant _physical _challenges!  How are you dealing with your physical limitations?
You intend to be the leader of this group, now that the guide is incapacitated.  How will you go about taking control, and why do you expect the others will follow you?  
*[AGENDA: You are elected group leader by a majority vote before the end of the story.]*
How did your parents die?
On Monday and Wednesday nights, you were awakened by what sounded like an animal prowling your camp.  What did you see when you peeked out of your tent, and why didn't you tell the others?


Which of the others don't you trust, and why?
*The Freshman*


It's your first year, and you've yet to choose a major.  What two degrees are you unable to decide between?
What's so great about being 19 years old on an adventure camping trip like this?
What skill do you have that would be very helpful in this situation, but that you intend to keep secret from the others?  Why do you feel the need to keep it a secret?  
*[AGENDA:  Keep this skill a secret throughout the story. *_(Write me a note if you want to use this skill without the others noticing.)_*]*
What is that pendant around your neck, and what does it mean to you?
If you die on this trip, you know it will be karmic retribution for something you've done in your past.  What did you do?
Though you're sure the rest of the group would dismiss it if you told them, you're convinced the guide was attacked by a werewolf.  Why do you believe in werewolves?


Which member of the group would you trust the most with your life, and why?  Which member of the group do you never want to be left alone with, and why?
*The English Major*


You chose your major to challenge yourself... but why was English the most challenging major for you?
What book have you read more than twenty times? How has it proven helpful on a trip like this?
What do you think you are much better at than you really are?
Why do you think you would make the best leader of this group, now that the guide is incapacitated?
If you die on this trip, you will go to Hell unless you redeem yourself for what sin?
What specific task did the guide give you to do before you all went to sleep on the night he was attacked?  Did you do it?


_(For this question, choose EITHER: the Fashion Design Major, the Freshman, or the Engineering Major.)_  Your chosen character is hiding something.  You sense it, but you don't yet know what it is.  How do you intend to learn their secret? 
*[AGENDA: Tell me their secret at the end of the story.]*
*The Fashion Design Major*


How is a major in Fashion Design a lot harder than people think?
What skill do you have that makes you the MOST useful person to have on an adventure camping trip like this one?
On the first night, the guide confiscated the illegal painkillers you've been addicted to for almost as long as you can remember.  What withdrawal symptoms are you experiencing, and how are you hiding them from the others?
Why are you living under a false name and a faked identity, having cut all ties to your former life?
What's the most regrettable thing you've ever done due to being drunk?
What sentence did you add to the "Tourist Warnings" section of Wikipedia's "Grand Canyon" article before coming on this trip?


Who among the others do you think would make the best leader?  _Other than the Freshman,_ who among the others do you think would make the worst leader? 
*[AGENDA: Your choice for "best leader" is formally recognized by the group as leader before the end of the story.]*
*The Engineering Major*


You've known since high school that you wanted to be an engineer.  What kind of engineering are you studying?  _(mechanical, computer, chemical, civil, mining, metallurgical, aerospace, etc.)_
Parts of this trip are harder for you because of what phobia?
As a child, you went camping with your family frequently, and you enjoyed it.  So why haven’t you been camping in more than 8 years?
Why is it so important to you that the group treat you as leader, now that the guide is incapacitated?
While on this trip, you realized that you don’t want to be an engineer.  What happened to change your mind?
You were the first person to reach the guide's tent after hearing sounds of the attack.  What did you see when you got there, and why haven't you told the others?


What did you secretly do to one of the members of the group yesterday, and why are you now beginning to regret it? 
*[AGENDA: Undo what you did, or solve the problem you created, without your victim finding out.]*
The agendas were nothing more than empty incentives, like getting a gold star on your homework, and they worked perfectly.  Whether you survived the story or not, you could satisfy your agenda and feel like your character accomplished that "extra something."

In hindsight, the Engineer's agenda was probably the most prone to problems---after all, the Engineering Major could have gamed things by picking something really easy to undo.  I was lucky to have a great Eng player who played along by writing "I stole the most valuable item I could find in the backpacks I rustled through last night while everyone was asleep," which ended up being the group's only compass, so it worked out beautifully---he kept pulling "to see if anyone is watching me", and played chicken with anyone willing to pull to be observant until everyone else backed down.  He won his gold star 

The English Major never figured out her chosen mark's secret (the Freshman):  Some of her possible targets had multiple secrets; I was going to give her the "gold star" if she told me any of them (for the Freshman, she could have gone for the obvious "secret skill", or the karmic retribution sin, or the reasons underpinning his werewolf belief).  Regardless, her attempts were consistently fantastic:  the Freshman was convinced she was in love with him by the end of the story, even proposing that this was her Agenda!  (In case you're wondering, I limited her choices to three because I thought the Philosophy Major and the Economics Major's secrets would be too difficult to suss out; I anticipated more skulking about and spying, whereas the English Major took a delightfully unexpected "you can confide your secrets in me" approach which, in hindsight, would have worked for any of them.) 

The Freshman's "secret skill" was the fact that he was a medical prodigy who, after suffering through med school as a young teenager, decided to pretend to be your average dumb 19-year-old to enjoy his college years.  There were at least three great scenes of him insisting on carrying or watching over the guide, stealing the first aid kit, and pulling to administer sneaky medical aid.  Sneaky medical aid!  Rofl!  He won his gold star 

But best of all was the perfect trifecta that built up around the Philosophy Major (PM), the Fashion Design Major (FDM), and the Economics Major (EM). For their Agendas, PM chose to be protective of FDM, while FDM chose PM as best leader.  EM, whose Agenda demanded he be elected leader, was a brilliant little manipulator (for being my baby brother IRL, sheesh...):  He cleverly implied that he alone possessed knowledge that no one else did, and threatened to keep it to himself "because it's the only way I have to keep this group from tearing itself apart."  This suckered in the PM's player beautifully (since she actually _did _have a question giving her knowledge no one else did, so was primed to believe something similar appeared on the EM's Questionnaire---metagaming can be a truly beautiful thing... especially when it's completely wrong!).  This resulted in FDM fishing for reasons for PM to be leader, which forced PM to juggle giving FDM those reasons so she wouldn't appear totally nuts to the other players (PM being forced to protect her, after all), while at the same time not giving too many reasons lest she compete with EM's leadership bid (she genuinely bought into EM's empty threat about secret knowledge).  PM ended up dying before this could really come to a head, but there was enough great roleplay between the three of them (with the other players throwing in enough that I wasn't worried about a one-sided show), that I consider their Agendas a complete success.  Only FDM didn't earn her gold star; FDM survived, giving PM hers, and EM was elected leader, winning his.

(Sorry if that last paragraph was confusing; I've read it a few times and edited it for sensicalness---which should SO be a real word---but I'm trying to balance brevity with clarity here!)

Though I've only played Dread twice, with two completely different groups of players (and only the second game had Agendas), and only running Beneath the Full Moon... I will be using Agendas in every single Dread game I run from now on.  They absolutely SANG, investing every player in the story and fueling more incredible storytelling than anything I could have offered as host!  I can only imagine how much fun it can be to read a really juicy Agenda, rub your hands together, and start plotting how you're going to accomplish it... can't wait to take malcolypse's advice and convince someone to run a Dread game for me!


----------



## malcolypse

Can't give Eunomaniac EXP right now, but "sensicalness" deserves some, and to be a real word.

Edit: Good luck finding a Dread GM, I've been trying forever and a day now.


----------



## Janx

I think the Agenda idea was good.  A way to focus the PC into having a goal that fits in the scope of the setting/situation.

it also makes a driving reason to play Dread despite the knowledge that to pull means to risk dying.

If you can achieve your goal, then you "win" even if your PC dies.

This makes sense for design, in the sense that Jenga itself is about "not losing" by being the one to knock the tower over.  

As a minor nitpick, I might recommend rephrasing your agenda statements into action directives:
[AGENDA: Ensure this chosen character survives the story, even if you do not.] 
[AGENDA: Get elected group leader by a majority vote before the end of the story.] 
[AGENDA: Get Your choice for "best leader" formally recognized by the group as leader before the end of the story.] 

Like I said, minor, but I think phrasing each AGENDA entry as an action goal makes it clear that you want the PC to take action and achieve the goal to win the AGENDA point.

I like keeping it simple and just 1 agenda per PC, without a scoring mechanism.


----------



## Olaf the Stout

This may have come up already in the thread, but I'm too lazy to read back through all those posts to check!

Does anyone have an idea of roughly how many pulls you get to before someone knocks the tower over?

Obviously it will vary, but surely there is a rough zone of failure in there.  I'm just trying to get an idea since I plan on running my first ever session of Dread in the next couple of months.

Olaf the Stout


----------



## Janx

Olaf the Stout said:


> This may have come up already in the thread, but I'm too lazy to read back through all those posts to check!
> 
> Does anyone have an idea of roughly how many pulls you get to before someone knocks the tower over?
> 
> Obviously it will vary, but surely there is a rough zone of failure in there.  I'm just trying to get an idea since I plan on running my first ever session of Dread in the next couple of months.
> 
> Olaf the Stout




The world record is 40 2/3 levels.  It was set by the guy who'd been demoing Jenga for years to sell the game (to vendors).

I've gotten giant Jenga to 39 and 2/3


----------



## Eunomiac

*malcolypse:* I'm thinking the key is to show your players how easy it is to scare the crap out of everyone:  walking around behind them, playing creepy music, and being all laid-back about it is working for me.  As for finding players, I've had great success strong-arming people into the game ("come on, I know you won't even play Risk, but you'll have a blast, I PROMISE!") 

*Janx:* Great advice, and in fact I did alter the format a bit when I posted it.  The agendas were all phrased as "YOU ACCOMPLISH YOUR AGENDA IF: <situation>", so they were clearer than the ones I posted.  I do like your "action phrases" better, though, and will take your advice next time, thank you!

*Olaf the Stout:* Here are the notes I condensed from this thread and from another on the subject of judging when the Tower likely falls.  Each bullet is a comment from either an experienced host or the designer, which is why they occasionally conflict (all different opinions/experiences):


It seems like a 4 hour game would most often see 30 pulls and 1 death (happening around pull #25).
DESIGNER RESPONSE: "... things get ridiculous around pull 45 ... try to go for a pull every 5 minutes for a 4 hour game ... people will be making multiple pulls, so it's okay to go a half hour without a pull and then yank six. Just make sure everything feels on pace."
 
"... the tower is generally good for 35-55 pulls before it falls. With beginning groups ... it'll be near the bottom of that range."
DESIGNER*:* "... it becomes nerve-wracking for me around 25 pulls. ... other, less experienced groups get nervous with as little as 12-15 pulls."
USE THEIR MISCONCEPTIONS re: INSABILITY!   Play up any tension about how rickety the Tower _appears_, AND about how every pull makes every future pull that much harder.
 
Generally only klutziness will bring it down before 20 pulls.
Most of the time you'll see a tower collapse in the late 20s or so.
So, there really is a HUGE range during which the tower could possibly fall (anywhere from 20 up to nearly 60).  And this range can vary a great deal even within a single game—the Tower fell twice in my first game:  the first time it was somewhere in the early 20s, possibly even sooner; it then lasted until at least 45 pulls, and even then it was a heroic sacrifice that brought it down.

By far the best advice, I thought, was that players tend to _think_ the Tower is about to fall LONG before it actually does, and that you shouldn't dispel this misconception, but encourage it.  This "Dread Plateau" is a subtle aspect of the Tower that's truly fantastic.  Basically, I always see the Tower in three "states:"

*STAGE ONE:* *Safe, and everyone knows it.*  The Tower is in this state any time it's recently been rebuilt.  You want to get out of this state as quickly as possible (the game is not called "Safe" for a reason).

After the Tower is built at the beginning of the game, offer a lot of optional, relatively insignificant pulls to players.   Even if they refuse, it sets the mood and gets them into character.  But, more importantly, it gives them a sense of _control_ over accepting vs. refusing pulls.  This beats throwing arbitrary, serious challenges at them, which makes them feel like they're in a pinball machine (save this for later ).   Also, you can try to trigger a player-vs-player conflict, where each player plays chicken with the Tower, alternating pulls until one backs down.  This gets to a Stage 2 Tower the quickest... but it could also end up killing someone early (with potentially bruised feelings, given the PvP) if it gets out of hand.

After the Tower is rebuilt following a character death, you have two choices, depending on where you are in the story:  *(1)*  If you aren't in an action scene, or near enough to the end of one, use the death to get the group into a low-tension situation to match the Tower: they get to their campsite, argue about what to do next, etc.  *(2)* OR, if the Tower fell in the middle of a crazy-hectic scene, DOUBLE DOWN:  _More _monsters arrive, _AND _your "Dead Man Walking" reveals he's been turned into one, striking from behind!  Everybody pull to avoid scattering in mad panic, then pull again to maintain calm enough to act!  Require 3-4 pulls to do _anything _(OFFENSE: maintain cool + get close/get weapon/aim + hit the thing + make it a telling blow; DEFENSE: react + dodge + avoid sideswipe + maintain composure)!  Demanding a round of pulls from everyone, and making the situation so deadly that multiple pulls are required for almost every action, feels intense right away even with a Stage 1 Tower, and gets you to Stage 2 damn quickly.  The only con here is if you have players who are slow-pullers even with a stable tower.
*STAGE TWO: "The Dread Plateau."   *This is where the Tower could be as many as 20-30 pulls away from falling, BUT all your players are getting very nervous about making pulls (which is your signal that you've moved out of Stage 1).  You'll be surprised how fast you get here, and how long you can stay here, which is why the Jenga mechanic is so fantastic for Dread.  This is where the game is at its best, and you should get to this stage ASAP.  Use their refusals to pile on complications; ramp up the tension, and wait for someone to die OR you start to feel like you're moving into Stage 3.
*STAGE THREE: Death Is Imminent.   *This is where the players are convinced the Tower's going to fall at any moment... and you're starting to agree with them.  (Yeah, it's a fuzzy line).   At this point, you should be planning what you're going to do AFTER the Tower falls.  Avoid starting a big climactic fight scene here, because it won't last very long before either the Tower collapses (throwing you back to Stage 1 in the middle of your endgame), OR someone pulls off an anticlimactic heroic sacrifice (which will be especially tempting now) the moment the climax begins.   Ideally, you want to get to this point DURING a big climax, so that someone is finally pushed towards a heroic sacrifice that DOES feel appropriately heroic, after a few rounds of players refusing to make pulls (resulting in serious injuries and other complications).
*Remember: The Tower dictates the dramatic tension of your game, not you.*  I read this before I played, but never really "grokked" it until I ran a game.  No matter how scary your scene is, if your players are staring at a Stage 1 Tower, they aren't going to be as afraid as they'd be in a fairly tame scene with a Stage _3 _Tower.  You want your scenes and the Tower to line up as best you can, and the best way to do this is to be supremely flexible: cut out scenes on the fly, mix them around, have a general way to ramp up the tension that would work for any scene ("monsters attack!"), but ALSO a plan to either reset the tension, or to double down (depending on how you want to get from a Stage 1 Tower to Stage 2).

Hope that was helpful, and I realize I digressed a bit from your question, but I thought I'd take this opportunity to summarize some of the other stuff in this thread about pacing and the Tower.


----------



## Wednesday Boy

Hi Dreadnaughts,
I'm running Beneath a Metal Sky for my college friends this weekend and needed some brainstorming help. I wanted to give each character an additional motivation that could create some conflict between the characters. And I'd like to hear any ideas you have for events that I could add that are related to their questoinaires. (I've attached the responses for the questionaires.)

Thanks all!!


----------



## Janx

Wednesday Boy said:


> Hi Dreadnaughts,
> I'm running Beneath a Metal Sky for my college friends this weekend and needed some brainstorming help. I wanted to give each character an additional motivation that could create some conflict between the characters. And I'd like to hear any ideas you have for events that I could add that are related to their questoinaires. (I've attached the responses for the questionaires.)
> 
> Thanks all!!




You could try a deliberate setup in the questionaire:

On the captain, put:
"What happened 5 years ago, when the chips were down and you crossed the line?"

And on another PC put:
"The captain may show signs of instability and rash judgement.  What will you do if it happens again?"

As always, feel free to adjust the phrasing, etc.  The point is, the captain's question will lead him to answer about some made up event where he got angry (and thus appeared irrational).  Perhaps even a Firefly-like backstory event.

The other PC has just been lead to EXPECT such behavior and history and thus will look for it.  Thus, they will review everything the captain does and see it in that light, and thus when this player thinks there's a problem (likely over a disagreement) they will associate it with being unstable, and move to take the captain out of command.

On another PC, indicate that they are really a spy from Weyland-Yutani and have been sent to collect as much data on the organism as possible, including a specimen if possible.

Make another PC be suspicious that someone in their party is not who they say they are.
"Your background has trained you well to detect duplicity in others,  it tells you something is amiss amongst the crew.  Why?"

It's tricky, but try to make your questions lead, but not overtly.  My last question example was too heavy on statement of how the PC is, not letting the player come to that conclusion.  A good clue is that half or more of the question should actually be the question, with the remainder being the part that frames it and guides the player.


----------



## Wednesday Boy

Janx said:


> _slice_




Thanks for all of the suggestions!  I sent those two leading questions to the Captain and Doc.  I added to the Doc's backstory that she's been tasked by the Company to keep tabs on the Captain because he's been acting odd.  I answered the Navigator's "Who don't you trust?" question with the Doc because he spotted her spying and taking notes on the captain.  I also added to the Nav's backstory that he was dishonorably discharged by the military and a former colleague suggested that the space hulk has some importance to the military and retrieving what they want or making something disappear for them could be his ticket back in.


----------



## Janx

you'll probably be fine with that, but for the future, keep in mind that Dread likes to have the players invent those explanations.


So avoid making statements on the sheet like "you've been tasked by the Company to keep tabs on the Captain because he's been acting odd. "

Try to make it a question that the player fills in:
"Why are you concerned with the captain's odd behavior?"

You manipulated the player into being concerned with the captain's behavior, but left the reason for the player to decide.

This gives you 2 things:
buy-in on you telling the player what their PC is like because you assigned the trait, but they get to define the cause
variability of character definition.  Different player will answer that question differently, which will drive different results in more ways than you expect than if you assign the whole trait and cause.


----------



## Wednesday Boy

I thought it would be better to create a strong motivation that would fit into the session rather than chance getting a response that wouldn't fit in.  But I see what you're getting at.


----------



## Rodrigo Istalindir

Wednesday Boy said:


> I thought it would be better to create a strong motivation that would fit into the session rather than chance getting a response that wouldn't fit in.  But I see what you're getting at.




Good players will screw themselves better than you could.  I once ran a Dread game where the characters knew they were going to be on a doomed ocean liner.  The last question was "Can you swim?"  All six answered 'No.'

If you go into running a Dread game with an open mind and willingness to improvise, you'll often find that the players' ideas are better than your own.  In another Dread game that starts out as a police procedural, the first time I ran it, one of the players had a theory that fit the evidence better than the 'right'' one.  I rewrote the middle act of the game on the fly to accommodate it, and the game turned out ten times better.

You'll find Dread a lot more rewarding to run if you keep things loose.


----------



## Wednesday Boy

Good points.  I'm going to keep things as loose and improvise as much as I can but I'm primarily a player and have a tough time doing it from the other side of the screen.  It's a lot easier to improvise when I don't have to worry about sustaining the plot and pacing and such.


----------



## Seonaid

Take Rodrigo's comments to heart. He's an excellent GM, especially with Dread.


----------



## Eunomiac

I've run two Dread games myself.  The first went great (I posted on it sometime back), the second went ... not so great.  (I didn't pay enough attention to how people were "helping" me re-stack the tower:  They neglected to alternate each level, which made the tower terribly unstable and resulted in a string of quick deaths that led to a quick TPK.)

But each time, despite doing a ton of preparation (including reading every page of this thread and taking lots of notes), I too-often felt lost—and I'm hardly inexperienced at GM'ing in general.  

To that end, I would like to make a humble request to one of the Great Dread GM's.  Brace yourself, you probably aren't going to like it:  *Could you please videotape a session so we newbies can learn by example?* _

Pretty please?_ 

Honestly, I'm begging here—and offering my services as video editor, uploader, and anything else you need... if you can just get me the straight digital footage.

I understand there are hurdles to this (player consent, camera shyness, etc.).  But I think it's worth trying to overcome these hurdles: The result would be _incalculably_ valuable to people wanting to run their first (or third) game, not to mention introducing new people to the awesome that is Dread.

Moreso than _any _other game, Dread depends on the GM's performance.  I don't mean assuming accents and the like (never a good idea... unless Christopher Walken is one of your NPCs).  I mean things like illustrating how you maintain the pacing and the atmosphere, handle private "asides" with players, keep the delicate mood when everyone wants to talk to you at once, or even your use of specific techniques (like *PirateCat *walking around behind players to whisper in their ears).

I know for a fact that seeing a single session run by a good GM would teach me more than the hundreds of thousands of words I must have read on Dread thus far.  The math certainly adds up — a picture is worth a thousand words, and a video is really a million little pictures 

Of course, an audio recording is another option, one that would be welcomed and genuinely appreciated!  

But I think there's no other game that has so much to gain from an illustrative _video_... and it's _such _a great game!


----------



## malcolypse

Here's a podcast I found some time ago, but never linked because I suck.

The Walking Eye Podcast  Blog Archive  Dread Actual Play

It's a quick playthrough of Beneath a Metal Sky, and it sounds like they had pretty good time.

I would like to hear one of PirateCats games, or Epidiah's games, or...basically any of the folks here who run the game well, of which there are many.

If I ever get my players together again for a Dread game, I'll see if they're willing to get recorded for posterity, but I make no claim of Dread-running Mastery.


----------



## Eunomiac

malcolypse said:


> Here's a podcast I found some time ago, but never linked because I suck.
> 
> The Walking Eye Podcast  Blog Archive  Dread Actual Play
> 
> It's a quick playthrough of Beneath a Metal Sky, and it sounds like they had pretty good time.




Yes, I've heard this one, and I would have posted it if I could remember how/where to find it — thanks for finding it for me!



malcolypse said:


> I would like to hear one of PirateCats games, or Epidiah's games,  or...basically any of the folks here who run the game well, of which  there are many.




Seconded!  But the one thing I _really _want to emphasize is the value of *video*  over an audio recording, if at all possible.  I realize I'm asking a  lot, but I'm only doing so because I genuinely believe it would be such a  benefit to new players wanting to run the game for the first time.  I  (and a lot of others, I presume) learn best by seeing, and given the  emphasis on the GM's performance in Dread, I believe no game would  benefit more.

A digital camera pointed in the direction of a Dread game would make my  Christmas.  Three or four, even.  (And again, I'm happy to do all of the  work after the footage is recorded!)



malcolypse said:


> If I ever get my players together again for a Dread game, I'll see if  they're willing to get recorded for posterity, but I make no claim of  Dread-running Mastery.




That would be excellent!  Let me know if there's any way I can help (obviously limited options there, but if you are able to video it, I can do all the editing and hosting and whatnot).


----------



## Rodrigo Istalindir

You'd want to tape Piratecat.  He does voices.  I don't do voices.

I think you may be overestimating the GMs participation in Dread, though, which (at least for me) is less proactive than in a traditional RPG.   I'm sitting back and letting the players advance the plot and taking the moments when they're interacting with each other to think about how to incorporate their ideas in future scenes.   If you know your setting fairly well, and especially the motivations/goals of the characters' nemesis, then it's easier to improvise.  None of my Dread games have more than a page of notes, with NPC names and a brief description, and a plot summary that's often no more than the intro blurb for the game and the stuff that the PCs don't know.

Playing NPCs is much as it is in a traditional RPG, though.  

Come to GenCon or Origins and I'm sure someone would run a Dread game.


----------



## Piratecat

I have audio recordings -- including one of Barsoomcore and his wife, Epidiah and Emily Care Boss, KidCthulhu, JC and Seonaid -- but that's not something I'd post without permission. I agree that a video would be more useful. Tricky to do, though.


----------



## Seonaid

Piratecat said:


> I have audio recordings -- including one of Barsoomcore and his wife, Epidiah and Emily Care Boss, KidCthulhu, JC and Seonaid -- but that's not something I'd post without permission. I agree that a video would be more useful. Tricky to do, though.



If you are asking, JC and I would be fine with it.


----------



## Eunomiac

Piratecat said:


> I have audio recordings -- including one of Barsoomcore and his wife, Epidiah and Emily Care Boss, KidCthulhu, JC and Seonaid -- but that's not something I'd post without permission.




Any way you could see if they'd be alright with posting it?  That sounds like the Dread dream team to me, and even _hearing _a game like that would be incredible!

As for the role of the GM in Dread:  I don't think I'm overstating it, as Rodrigo suggests.   It's true, other systems require more _preparation_ than Dread, in terms of notes and the like... but I find that _running _them requires less "on-your-feet" expertise.  Pacing, atmosphere, mood, tone, player "management" (for lack of a better word), etc. are less of an issue in other systems, whereas they are central to Dread.  I think this is because those games inherently allow for more interruptions in the flow of the game, which can be quite damaging to Dread.  

As an aside, I actually like this aspect of Dread --- less interruptions equals a more consistent "in-game" experience, which is exactly what one needs to create a genuinely horrific atmosphere.  It's just a bit harder to pull off!


----------



## Eunomiac

Seonaid said:


> If you are asking, JC and I would be fine with it.



*hug*  Thank you!


----------



## malcolypse

Holy crap, I may actually get to play in a game of Dread!

My wife's planned a shindig for her office, and some of them have played Dread before and wanted to do so again.

And my awesome wife has volunteered to run a game for me and several of her co-workers. 

I'm giddy.


----------



## cyalume

I hope its alright to resurrect this thread again. Ive always been a lurker on EN World, but was recently introduced to Dread by a friend. I wanted to post here and share my thoughts and ask for advice. 

Ive played in some 4e games and tinkered with Mouse Guard before. Ive never run a game before.  I read this entire thread just as Eunomiac did, and cant wait to play. Ive been wanting to introduce my girlfriend to rpgs, and Dread is a perfect system. No numbers for her (or me) to keep up with, only determining what needs a pull from the tower. We are big fans of horror movies, so this is a great fit. 

My only concern is that I will only be able to get two people, her and her brother, to play at first. Can you guys suggest an existing adventure that would work with 2 people? Or should I just make something up for them? We are all big fans of zombies and ghost stories, but anything would probably work. What does everyone think?


----------



## Rodrigo Istalindir

Check out the date on the first post.   This is possibly the most-resurrected thread on ENW  

You're going to run into a few issues with only 2 players.  

First, you're going to have the same people making a *lot* of pulls, which I think would get kind of repetitive, and if one player consistently chickens out, the game could stall.  With more players, it's a little easier to spread the danger so it creeps up on them, and any one person doesn't feel put upon.

Second, once the tower falls, the game is apt to get kind of linear (and exacerbate issue #1), and your chance of a premature TPK goes way, way up.

Third, a lot of the joy in a good Dread game comes from the interactions of the characters, and the way those interactions can change the course of the game.  Fewer players cuts down on that pretty dramatically.  It might enhance the tension, since there's little respite, but it also cuts down on being able to do cliffhangers, etc.

To counteract some of those, I'd be tempted to go with some sort of closed-environment survival game, ala The Thing, or Alien, etc.  Exploration and resource-management can give you some filler scenes to keep the roller-coaster of lulls and terror going.  

Consider ahead of time ways to use 'dead man walking' to keep the first player to 'die' in the game in a meaningful way for as long as possible.  Maybe also consider using one of the various 'freebie' optional rules that gives a player a way to buy off a pull a couple times, so if the pacing is off and the tower gets rickety too soon, you can buy some time to get to the good stuff before someone dies.

You might also want to take a look at Fiasco, which is another very rules-light RPG  that is GM-less, is exceptionally playable with 3 people, and is an excellent 'gateway RPG' for introducing new players to the hobby.


----------



## cyalume

Great advice Rodrigo. I was actually thinking of making a tower drop equal incapacitation, instead of outright removal from the game. Have the other player pull to wake them up or assist them in some way.

Im thinking that since they are brother and sister they will be more likely to interact with each other. Thats my hope anyway. I know they can work together well, so maybe a scenario based on Alien or a zombie theme would work well. I like the idea of survival horror a lot.

Im not looking for an amazing _gaming_ experience so much as a good _story telling_ experience. If they get into the groove of the game, thinking the problems out and being creative, I think it will be a success. Their only exposure to rpgs is DnD and think its a boring dice fest. Ive asked them both to play DnD and get an eye roll as soon as I say those words. With this, her brother seemed really interested in it, especially with the Jenga mechanic. Im confident that if they are happy with the first session, they will recruit other players for me.

Maybe it would be something like 'I Am Legend'. Only two survivors left, out looking for resources then found by some monster or zombies. Or theyve found where youre making camp, and attacking it. I want to use background music and lighting at the very least, and maybe some handouts if they will be finding clues. So many possibilities! 

And I will definitely check out Fiasco. Thanks for the advice!


----------



## Janx

Rodrigo Istalindir said:


> You're going to run into a few issues with only 2 players.




I'm pretty sure you're going to need The Virgin, The Scholar, The Athlete, The Whore, and The Fool.

Don't forget to kill them in the right order.


----------



## cyalume

Janx said:


> I'm pretty sure you're going to need The Virgin, The Scholar, The Athlete, The Whore, and The Fool.
> 
> Don't forget to kill them in the right order.





Thatll start it off well with the girl.  "Ok so for tonights game youre going to be The Whore..."


----------



## Janx

cyalume said:


> Thatll start it off well with the girl.  "Ok so for tonights game youre going to be The Whore..."




Just tell her that you'll work with what you've got...

And go see The Cabin In The Woods for inspiration.


----------



## cyalume

Lol, I will do the very best that I can with what I have available. "You're gonna play a whore and you're gonna like it! "  

I can't wait to play this. Maybe it'll work out soon. And I'll try to cathedral that movie. Haven't seen it yet. Thanks for the advice guys.


----------



## Janx

cyalume said:


> Lol, I will do the very best that I can with what I have available. "You're gonna play a whore and you're gonna like it! "
> 
> I can't wait to play this. Maybe it'll work out soon. And I'll try to cathedral that movie. Haven't seen it yet. Thanks for the advice guys.




alas, a joking movie reference may have been lost.

5 people go to a cabin in the woods.  One is the star football player, one an academic, there's the girl who's been around, and the girl who hasn't.  Then there's the pothead.  Give them a flimsy reason for being at the cabin, and then kill them as best as you can.  I recommend using mermen.


----------



## cyalume

I knew what you were getting at!  I thought at the end you were literally recommending that The Cabin In The Woods movie that come out a couple of months back.  Which was ironic because it would have been the first such recommendation of that film.  And mermen?  What if they come from the toilet?  Sounds like a plan!  Pull from the tower to avoid the slap in the face from the turdy merman tail.


----------



## Janx

cyalume said:


> I knew what you were getting at!  I thought at the end you were literally recommending that The Cabin In The Woods movie that come out a couple of months back.  Which was ironic because it would have been the first such recommendation of that film.  And mermen?  What if they come from the toilet?  Sounds like a plan!  Pull from the tower to avoid the slap in the face from the turdy merman tail.




I am recommending that fine film.  And that sounds like an excellent way to bring in Mermen.


----------



## Piratecat

Cyalume, one more caution about a two player game. The pacing is going to be *very* hard to maintain. With six players in a 4 hour game, it still feels like I require players to pull fairly often to destabilize the tower and maintain tension. With 2 players, I honestly don't think it's possible to do. 

Except! You know what I'd do? I'd require players to pull 2 blocks instead of the normal 1 every time they need to pull, and possibly 3 blocks if they happen to be in combat. This effectively ratchets a 2 player game up to a 4-6 player game in terms of pacing. That'd work quite well.


----------



## cyalume

Piratecat said:


> Except! You know what I'd do? I'd require players to pull 2 blocks instead of the normal 1 every time they need to pull, and possibly 3 blocks if they happen to be in combat. This effectively ratchets a 2 player game up to a 4-6 player game in terms of pacing. That'd work quite well.





That sounds like a great idea Piratecat.  Do you have any suggestions as to what sort of scenario would work well with 2 players?  Do you agree that it should be exploring an enclosed environment/resource management theme?

Thanks for your advice so far!


----------



## Janx

Piratecat said:


> Cyalume, one more caution about a two player game. The pacing is going to be *very* hard to maintain. With six players in a 4 hour game, it still feels like I require players to pull fairly often to destabilize the tower and maintain tension. With 2 players, I honestly don't think it's possible to do.
> 
> Except! You know what I'd do? I'd require players to pull 2 blocks instead of the normal 1 every time they need to pull, and possibly 3 blocks if they happen to be in combat. This effectively ratchets a 2 player game up to a 4-6 player game in terms of pacing. That'd work quite well.




Here's a couple add-on ideas:
Throw in some party NPCs.  Let's say you're doing a Cabin in the Woods.  5 characters, 2 players.  Let the 2 players control 1 PC each as normal.  The GM controls the other 3 NPCs, but they will generally go along with what the players want to do.  

However, sometimes,  the NPC gets a stupid idea (like "let's split up and cover more ground!"  A player can pull to convince the NPC to change their mind.

An NPC might need to so something dangerous.  A player can pull to help him suceed.  Failure means something bad happens to the PC because of what the NPC did.  Maybe make it a random chance (NPC or PC dies).

Along the same lines of random chance of who dies is the Dead Man Walking.  If the tower topples during  a pull that doesn't make it obvious why a death would occur (it's not a direct pull to do something dangerous or fighting).  Tell the player that there's a random chance that the PC might be dead, but that it doesn't get revealed right away.  So basically, the PC thinks they MIGHT be OK.  PirateCat says he's seen players forget, but this is another way to help trick them.

Yet another branch off of this in a few-players game is to kill off a random party member (your PC or an NPC, but not mine, because you drew).  In this way, the NPCs become potential hit points.  I suppose you could just burn off NPCs before affecting PCs to the same effect.

I'm not entirely sold on the NPCs as hit point things because odds are good, the tower will fall 3 times during a game.  That's only 3 deaths.  You could rule that each player can sacrifice one NPC party member, which would still work out to making the PCs emperiled.


----------



## Janx

cyalume said:


> That sounds like a great idea Piratecat.  Do you have any suggestions as to what sort of scenario would work well with 2 players?  Do you agree that it should be exploring an enclosed environment/resource management theme?
> 
> Thanks for your advice so far!




Zombie apocalypse seems like a self-sustaining format.

Whenever things quiet down, zombies show up.
If the party has weak shelter, only one or two show up and start breaking through.
If the party has strong/fortified shelter, it's a a horde of zombies, which will start breaking through the defenses
In either case, odds are good the shelter is compromised and the party must escape

The party will escape to some new shelter generally (or vehicle)

From there, you'll need resource scarcity.  When things slow down, the party should develop a need for something they don't already have.  Anti-biotics, regular prescriptive medicine (heart, asthma, etc), food, ammo, fuel.  The party will form a plan to go out and get some, which of course encounters zombies on the way or while gathering or on the way back.

Both of these types of events are instigators.  If things get slow or stable, introduce zombie assault or resource need and that'll get things going.

If the players are busy talking, debating, taking action, you probably don't need to do anything until a disucssion gets too heated or starts repeating itself and not going anywhere.


----------



## malcolypse

Tomorrow, I'll be playing in a game of Jurassic Park Dread! I get to be the tour guide, and I'm mind bogglingly excited.

I don't recall ever thinking or hearing of JP Dread before, but it seems like an absolute perfect fit. Running, running, and tripping the guy running next to you. 

Has anyone else ever done this?


----------



## Janx

I just got back from my gaming pilgrimage to Minnesota.

Visited The Source and finally picked up a full paper copy of Dread.

I've run with the quick play rules before, but I figure the book covers elements I made up.

I'm thinking of building encounter tables for a Zombie Apocalypse type game so the whole thing is mostly random.


----------



## Cerebral Paladin

If I were running a game with a small number of PCs and some party NPCs, I might consider letting the PCs sacrifice NPCs to avoid pulling.  "Okay, you're jumping out of the window.  You can pull to land safely.  If you don't pull, you'll twist your ankle.  Or the zombies can catch Charlie before he makes it out of the window, in which case you can land safely without taking a pull."  And of course, whether you're using this variant rule or not, when NPCs are legitimately threatened, the PCs may end up making extra pulls to try to save them.

I think if you combined Piratecat's pull twice, three times in combat rule with a "sacrifice an NPC to avoid pulling," you could get pretty close to the 4-6 player feel.  (Allowing them to sacrifice an NPC to negate a tower fall reduces the danger level too much, imo, to get a standard Dread feel.)


----------



## cyalume

Cerebral Paladin, do you tell your players what the outcome will be if they do not make a pull from the tower?  Like in your example, do you tell them that without a pull, they will twist their ankle or let them decide first and then tell them the result?  

Also, I really like this idea.  I will have to use it in my upcoming session.  Thanks!


----------



## Cerebral Paladin

I typically run a Dread variant, not vanilla Dread, but:  I often tell them exactly what will happen if they don't pull.  I always try to give them some guidance, so I might leave it at "if you pull, you'll land safely," which implies "if you don't, you'll get injured."  Of course, sometimes there's less information and sometimes there's more.  If someone's searching in a book for information, I might say "pull twice to get all the information in there, pull once to get some useful information."  Again, it's implied that if you don't pull, no info for you.  With that example, one pull would usually aim to be a piece of information that's sufficient for the PCs to figure out the rest--a good clue, if you like--whereas two pulls would spell things out.  I always want the players to feel like they're getting good value from a pull, and I want them to feel like the harm they get for refusing to pull is harm that they've agreed to, not that's being foisted on them.


----------



## Asmor

A coworker sent me a link today. The URL contained something about water balloon RPGs. I was actually disappointed when it just turned out to be a new Japanese toy that fires rocket-propelled water balloons.

But that got me thinking... Imagine playing a game of dread with a water balloon? Not sure how exactly it would work... Maybe get a hose, hang it from the ceiling (or over a tree branch), and secure the balloon onto it tightly enough that it won't come off. Then whenever someone would pull, instead they have to turn the water on for a moment or two while standing under the balloon.

Dread + campfire horror stories?


----------



## Wednesday Boy

Da6nnyglji said:


> just to be able to play Dread.




Reported.


----------



## Cerebral Paladin

*Dread without the Jenga*

I recently ran a Dread (technically a Dread variant--I used my Heroic Dread rules) game where I experimented with using a deck of cards to replace the tower.  

Here's how it worked:  I took a deck of cards, and separated out the Ace of Spades.  I shuffled the rest of the deck.  I took roughly the top half (deliberately not a perfect half), and I put it aside.  I then took the next roughly  quarter of the whole deck, and I shuffled the Ace of Spades into it.  I then reassembled the deck, putting the last untouched quarter on the bottom, the quarter with the Ace of Spades in it in the middle, and the half on top.  So the Ace of Spades was roughly between cards 27 and 39, but could be a little higher or a little lower.

Every time someone pulled, they drew a card from the top of the deck.  If it was the Ace of Spades, the tower falls.  If it was any other Ace, they had to pick a number between 4 and 13; we would then take 3 cards out of the deck, spaced at that interval (so if the first card was the Ace of Hearts and the player picked the number 4, we would remove the 5th, 9th, and 13th cards as well as the 1st card).  All of those cards are revealed as well--if any of them are the Ace of Spades, then the tower falls.  If necessary, we would wrap around to the beginning to draw enough cards (so if someone draws an Ace and chooses 13, there would always be 3 bonus cards drawn).  Drawing an Ace on an Ace would cause a cascade--in theory, you could draw 10 cards on a single draw, if you drew an ace, with an ace in its three cards, and then an ace in its three cards.  The deck is kept neat, the discard pile messy (so the discard pile can't be easily used to judge where in the deck you are).

Overall, it worked quite effectively.  Like with the tower, the dynamic feels somewhat random, but not perfectly random.  There's risk even on the first pull, but the risk is low (but increasing) until you get about 25 pulls.  At that point, every pull feels dangerous.  2 of my 3 players expressed a strong opinion that it was better than Jenga Dread; the 3rd viewed both as equivalently good.

Potential advantages over the tower:
1.  It's much, much faster.  A pull in a conventional Dread game takes time--sometimes a lot of time.  A draw of a card is over in an instant.  That meant more time role-playing, less time Jenga playing.
2.  Minimizes player skill effects--an expert Jenga player has a big advantage over an inexpert one.  With card Dread, an expert player has only a small advantage over an inexpert one in playing the tower.  (Of course, skill in e.g. decisions about when to pull still makes a big difference.)
2a.  Some of the players I've run Dread for (mostly older players) have had extremely shaky hands, such that they felt they couldn't really pull.  We solved this by letting them delegate their pulls.  But in card Dread, they can just pull.
3.  Can be played over the internet.  Since there's no skill in the physical act of pulling, a GM with a web cam can keep the deck and simply pull when the players tell the GM to.
4.  If small children or pets are around, they won't knock down the tower by accident or the like.  Similarly, bumping the table is not nearly as destructive.
5.  Some players may find it less intrusive--less disruptive of the immersion of the game.

Potential disadvantages:
1.  Some players find that the delays while pulling a block are productive--that they build tension.  A fast play mechanic may reduce the tension.
2.  Minimizing issues with bumping the table, etc., may have the negative effect of losing the "tower keeps us focused and nervous" dynamic.  A deck of cards isn't a loaded gun in the way that a Jenga tower is.
3.  Some players really like the specifically Jenga aspects, either because they like playing Jenga, or because they like some of the strategic aspects (I can pull to make it easier for later players or I can pull to make it harder), or because they like the tactile feedback you get when you test a piece in a Jenga tower.

Anyway, I'm going to try this variant more in the future.  I'd be very interested to hear about people's opinions if anyone else tries it.


----------



## Janx

interesting card method.  the stuff with dealing with non Spade aces sounds convoluted, but that may just be my speed reading of it.

As a Jenga expert, I find that beginners under-estimate their ability/over estimate the difficulty.  Obviously, there are pulls I can make, they can't, and I can do it quickly.  But until we reach the end game, they're in far less danger than they think.

There's value in this.

Cheap Ass Games' had a design philosophy that their games should reward somebody who uses their brain and thinks a good strategy, but not give that person an overwhelming advantage.  thus, they're games are still very random, but if you are smart, and your opponents aren't you have a slightly better chance of winning.

Jenga kind of does that.  My skill gives me an advantage, but in general, it doesn't really dominate.  Especially since Jenga only has one loser.  A skilled player really washes out in the mix.  They simply lose Jenga less often than anybody else, and if you play enough times, everybody is a winner with few repeat losers.

There's also this sense of control.  If I'm just drawing from a deck, I don't have less input on the outcome.  Kinda like most RPGs.  If I'm drawing from a tower, I have a lot more feeling of control over the outcome.  It's better than rolling a dice to see if I hit.


----------



## Hypersmurf

Cerebral Paladin said:


> Potential disadvantages:
> 1.  Some players find that the delays while pulling a block are productive--that they build tension.  A fast play mechanic may reduce the tension.




Yeah.  I've seen a room held rigid in complete silence - except for the occasional synchronised sharp-intake-of-breath - for _five minutes_ while someone attempts a particularly difficult pull from the Tower.

I think as an alternative mechanic for when Jenga is impractical, the deck of cards is viable... but I wouldn't want to give up that atmosphere if there was any way to avoid losing the Tower.

-Hyp.


----------



## Janx

Cerebral Paladin said:


> If I were running a game with a small number of PCs and some party NPCs, I might consider letting the PCs sacrifice NPCs to avoid pulling.  "Okay, you're jumping out of the window.  You can pull to land safely.  If you don't pull, you'll twist your ankle.  Or the zombies can catch Charlie before he makes it out of the window, in which case you can land safely without taking a pull."  And of course, whether you're using this variant rule or not, when NPCs are legitimately threatened, the PCs may end up making extra pulls to try to save them.
> 
> I think if you combined Piratecat's pull twice, three times in combat rule with a "sacrifice an NPC to avoid pulling," you could get pretty close to the 4-6 player feel.  (Allowing them to sacrifice an NPC to negate a tower fall reduces the danger level too much, imo, to get a standard Dread feel.)




Your method sounds like they defer a tower falling by one pull.  Assuming the tower was highly likely to fall, which is why the player opted to sacrifice an NPC instead of pulling.  It'll be just as risky on his next pull, despite having a character die (NPC-PC)

My proposal is that the PC pulls for the benefit or doesn't pull for the consequence.  If he pulls and the tower falls, an NPC MIGHT take his place as being dead.  The NPC is a placeholder for another player who really might have been the one to take that pull instead AND the tower really would have fallen and reset anyway.

I suspect either method can work, but my intention was to make NPC sacrificing work as an analog to having the real players present.  Thus, with 4 players or 2 players and 2 NPCs in a game paced for 3 tower topplings means that 1 PC survives at the end in both games.

with CP's way, when you reach a climactic moment, and you opt to sacrifice an NPC, you are still at climax (tower is shakey), and the player will have to pull pretty soon.  Result is, 2 inevitable tower topplings = game over before the denoument.

Note, I don't fully assume that Dread will have 3 tower topplings, but if you follow the 3 act play pacing model, it lines up that way for the most part.  

Namely because once the tower is rebuilt with the requisite pre-pulls, it's still a lot safer to make enough checks to escape the villain from the continuing attack for the scene pacing to calm down (hence, the shakiness and toppling is the climax, and the rebuild is shifting to a new Act/scene.


----------



## InfoSponge

I'm running a pre-Halloween game of Dread tonight. This is going to be the second game of Dread I've run (though I am a fairly experienced GM for other systems).

My first game... did not go so well. I ran the "Beneath a Metal Sky" adventure from the book, and, bolstered by the constant recommendations of this as a great gateway game/game for newbies, I ran it for a group of 6, only 2 of whom were experienced roleplayers.

I found there were really two major problems I encountered — one was that the adventure (or perhaps simply my understanding of it) was too rigid. It reads very well, but I found the actual play of it to be mostly a lot of running back and forth around the ship. Go to the X section on the Y level of the ship, then head to the J section on the K level of the ship... repeat.... My players got bored and restless trying to figure out how to escape this ship full of monsters, and frustrated with what they felt amounted to a wild goose chase.

The other was that a lot of the players seemed to have trouble buying into the whole "horror trope" aspect of the game. They all decided to be calm, rational, cautious characters, and they all made cautious, sensible decisions. If you've ever seen a horror film, you know this is anathema! I struggled to find ways to spook them into action without tipping my hand too early. After all, the scariest things are those you don't see.


That was a few months ago, and I've had quite a bit of time to reflect on it and attempt to figure out a way to run the game more smoothly. I was impressed with the mechanics of the game, and felt it had great potential... if only I could make it live up to that.

Tonight I'll be running the official adventure "13", about a group of kids in a haunted house. I like this module for several reasons: I think ghosts are really scary, and feel confident in my ability to scare my friends with ghostly happenings; The module is a lot more loosely written, with events happening in locations that are not preset, but in fact, shifting; The characters are all kids, and not hardened, jaded, cautious adults who will avoid danger or panicked responses.

I'm also more confident in my group — it's smaller (4 players), and they're all experienced roleplayers.

I'm considering doing a full write-up of both sessions, and a comparison of them, after I run this game tonight. Especially if this one goes well. I think a rundown of pitfalls I ran into, and solutions I found for them is something that other GMs (or hosts, whatever) may find useful. 

A recurring theme I noticed in this thread is "I like this game, but I'm having trouble wrapping my head around how to be a good Host. Can you help me?" and GMs responding with "Well, it's different. Your players do most of the work." While this is true, it's also not very helpful.

GMing a game of Dread IS quite different from running a more traditional game. It requires a lot less concrete planning, and a lot more improvisation and (above all) facilitation. And it's that last aspect I think is really important. Above all, the Host's duty is to facilitate the game and the players' interactions. This means using subtle leadership techniques to guide the players, reduce friction with the system, and (in many cases), with each other (unless dramatically appropriate of course).


Umm... yeah, wow, one long rambling post later, I bring it back to the beginning. I'm running a game of Dread tonight, and I'm running the adventure "13". I really really liked Uenomiac's "Agenda" mod. Only, I'm having a bit of trouble coming up with suitable agendas for the cast (8-10 year olds). I think seeing the filled-out questionnaires will help (I asked them to fill them out ahead of time and email me. Though I have seen some indications that many people prefer having them filled out at-the-table...), but I would love it if anyone had any suggestions for possible agendas.


----------



## Janx

InfoSponge said:


> My first game... did not go so well. I ran the "Beneath a Metal Sky" adventure from the book, and, bolstered by the constant recommendations of this as a great gateway game/game for newbies, I ran it for a group of 6, only 2 of whom were experienced roleplayers.




I ran Metal Sky for the first time I did Dread as well.  I had 5 experienced gamers playing it.  For the most part it worked out well for me.  Only 2 deaths and both were player sacrifices to save the party.

I did feel that it was a bit rail-roady on my part.  As there was no map of the ship, I kind of just made up places where things were as suited me to setup the next attack.

In my view, it seems that the tower is really building up to the next attack when somebody will fall.  If the players are active, doing smart or silly stuff, they will make pulls.  You don't need to punish doing reckless stuff by having a monster attack right then.  The consequence is built into the tower.  When it gets rickety is when the big monster attack comes that kills somebody.

Conversely, if the party plays it safe and hunkers down, you need to instigate change and action.  This invariably means the monsters attack their position and cause a failure in the defenses that forces them to move or rush to action.

I think with this paradigm, the GM should generally reward players taking action.  The players who attempt to do stuff should see success or new situations develop.  There's no need to nail them with monsters if they keep doing stuff (after all the tower will nail them eventually anyway).  Lack of action is boring, so bringing in the monsters to force the players into action seems fair (and part of the genre).

In Metal Sky, this meant that players who explored, found gear, new exits, etc.  Players who hunkered down, would get ambushed and attacked.  This actually keeps both types of players busy and involved, just in different ways.


----------



## InfoSponge

I rather agree. You make a very good point about managing flow. The tower is a metaphor for (and in many ways, a chart of) the rising and falling action of the plotline. Keeping the story in sync with that is the beauty and challenge of Dread.

I think the main issue I ran into was that of mismanaged expectations. The entire cast's first decision, when faced with the hulk, was "hmm... seems dangerous. Lets just ignore it and keep flying. Why should we board that? Someone else will respond to the distress signal. I don't want to face anything scary, I want to live."

Now, I probably should have started them further along — having already boarded the hulk. That was my mistake, as a first-time Host. But having not done that, I had to figure out how to handle this.

At that point I stopped the game and had a talk about why we were even playing Dread — that is, to tell a good horror story, not for everyone to be overly careful and avoid all signs of danger.

I think that I maybe didn't quite make that point well enough. I had more than half new roleplayers, and their every instinct was "lets figure out how to completely avoid the scary, because that's what I'd if scary things seemed likely to happen."

So we hit the reset button (all of 3 minutes into the game) but the mindset didn't change much. I feel like this was largely a failure on my part, in not preparing the newbies well enough, but it made for a rocky game.


----------



## Janx

InfoSponge said:


> I think the main issue I ran into was that of mismanaged expectations. The entire cast's first decision, when faced with the hulk, was "hmm... seems dangerous. Lets just ignore it and keep flying. Why should we board that? Someone else will respond to the distress signal. I don't want to face anything scary, I want to live."




That can be tricky, but sitting here in my comfy chair with the luxury of time, here's what I see to help that next time:

Always prepare and remind your players when making their PCs that they need to make characters that would "go on the adventure".  Building a party of space scavengers that don't want to scavenge is bad roleplaying, bad gaming, and just defeats the purpose.

I also thought the initial hook for Metal Sky left a lot of room for simple bypassing.  You can certain pull the "Starfleet regulations state..." clause on the PCs to gull them into investigating.  This smells like railroading them, and it is to an extent.  I have not shaken the railroading feeling off of my interpretation of how to run the game.

You could also have setup the scene more like the beginning of Firefly.  Wherein, the PCs are interested in abandoned ships like this, and this is EXACTLY what their character definitions were looking for.  Namely, a ship they can loot.  Set the tone that this is a "Firefly" type adventure, and once they are aboard, that's when you flip the switch and it turns into "Alien" instead.

I certainly think it's an issue in adventure design for one-shot type games.  The PCs need to start AT the location as if they had decided to go there, rather than sitting at home all nice and safe with too much caution in the way of actually going anywhere dangerous.  

The key problem is really that you have players who are deliberately refusing to bite the plot hook.  In my group, that is against our group's social agreement.  The GM is allowed to present a solitary plot hook that logically appeals to the group, and the group is obligated to bite it, unless it is obviously a screw job for the PCs (as in, the GM is not allowed to present a single choice for the purpose of screwing the PCs over).  

The process works for normal D&D adventures.  Given that a Dread adventure is sort of a screw-job, it has to be recognized by all the players that the point of the adventure is to be one of the survivors at the end, more than simply beating the GM by avoiding danger.

That said, with your group, your next option was to have the derelict ship, activate itself and cause it to intercept the PC ship and bring it into its cargo bay, OR cause damage to the PC ship (asteroid hit, or whatever external threat may have initially harmed the derelict ship).  So then, the PCs can choose to remain stranded or board the derelict ship to look for parts to repair their own ship and leave.

All my solutions are railroady (as in, negating or preventing player choice/options).  But I think the initiator to a one-shot adventure kind of needs that.  The adventure is about running around a scary ship, not leaving and playing Space Merchants of Venus instead.


----------



## Wednesday Boy

InfoSponge said:


> GMing a game of Dread IS quite different from running a more traditional game. It requires a lot less concrete planning, and a lot more improvisation and (above all) facilitation. And it's that last aspect I think is really important. Above all, the Host's duty is to facilitate the game and the players' interactions. This means using subtle leadership techniques to guide the players, reduce friction with the system, and (in many cases), with each other (unless dramatically appropriate of course).




I found that GMing Dread requires concrete planning of scenes and hitches in the plot to throw at players but requires flexibility in when the scenes should occur so the flow of the story and the mood is well maintained.


----------



## InfoSponge

Wednesday Boy said:


> I found that GMing Dread requires concrete planning of scenes and hitches in the plot to throw at players but requires flexibility in when the scenes should occur




You got me on that one! 

In, say, D&D, plot revelation happens relatively slowly, due to the nature of its action-resolution framework. It gives you a lot more time to come up with things while, say, doing the nigh-automatic work of checking die results against DCs. You can start with a loose sketch of an encounter and fill in details as they naturally come up.

In Dread, things can change at the drop of a hat. You need a stock of little 'kernels' of story (plot nodes) to throw out at any given time, but you can never be quite sure which one you'll need next until the very moment you need it. You can try and guide things towards the next node you have in mind, but as Dread is largely player-input driven, you can't always be sure things will end up there (or at least, that they'll take the route you anticipate). Sometimes you need to shuffle things around to suit the players' actions.


In other news, I ran that game of Dread last night, and it was a great success! Everyone had a great time (except the one player who couldn't make it due to stomach flu ). It was quite different from my first experience in almost every way. One of my players was somewhat uncomfortable with "hard" horror happening to children, so the flavor was kept relatively light. Despite that, tensions remained high throughout the game. There were lots of laughs, but lots of moments where players had to steady their shaking hands before taking a pull.

I plan to do a more detailed write-up later, and possibly a comparison with my earlier, grittier, much less successful first session, if anyone might be interested in that.


----------



## Wednesday Boy

InfoSponge said:


> I think the main issue I ran into was that of mismanaged expectations. The entire cast's first decision, when faced with the hulk, was "hmm... seems dangerous. Lets just ignore it and keep flying. Why should we board that? Someone else will respond to the distress signal. I don't want to face anything scary, I want to live."




I've only run it twice but I found that it helped to integrate a motivation for why the characters would want to be on the hulk into the questionaire and character building.  The players of the Captain in both games wrote rationales for their character's interest in hulks; one didn't want a rival shipping company to get the hulk and reverse engineer its patented spacefaring technology and the other was tasked by his company to find a colony ship that had gone missing and discover why it went off course.

My players were also fine with me providing some roleplaying prompts based on their answers to the questionaire, to make them a more tightly knit group.  For example, one player said his character was indebted to the mob so I decided one of the ways he could repay them was with cargo from the hulk.

And in both cases it required a willingness from the players to play along with the story.  It's hard to run any game if the players aren't willing to play to the genres' archetypes.


----------



## Janx

Wednesday Boy said:


> I've only run it twice but I found that it helped to integrate a motivation for why the characters would want to be on the hulk into the questionaire and character building.  The players of the Captain in both games wrote rationales for their character's interest in hulks; one didn't want a rival shipping company to get the hulk and reverse engineer its patented spacefaring technology and the other was tasked by his company to find a colony ship that had gone missing and discover why it went off course.




That's an excellent point.  In the case of Metal Sky, and perhaps other Dread adventures, there should be leading questions that involve/entice the character into participating.

So instead of asking "would your PC answer a distress call" which risks getting the tepid answer of "No!" you instead ask "Why is your PC interested in finding abandoned or wrecked ships?"

the PC doesn't get to say no, he's driven to answer "Yes, and this is why..."

which in turns gets him to say "yes" more readily when he hits the game table.


----------



## Joshua Randall

With new players I might give them extremely specific and leading questions.

Not just "Why is your PC interested in finding abandoned or wrecked ships?"

But "Where on the scary space hulk does your PC think he can find the rare medicine that will save his sick puppy's life?"


----------



## Janx

It probably always pays to know your players.  Having a group of newbs means they tend to be more indecisive, unsure and overly cautious.  The good news being, that if my stereotype is wrong, you can adapt and handle the opposites of those behaviors.

So, you prepare and plan for the behaviors I cite.

design PCs that guide the player to the lay style you want, which is people who will board the cary ship.

start the scene after docking, thereby coming to the foregone conclusion that of course you would dock, you are explorers of abandoned ships.

provide stimulus and reason for why they need to be here and doing stuff.  Forex, if the ships are in an asteroid belt, then the party's ship took a bad hit that damaged the engine.  They need to find a replacement part on the hulk in order to repair their own ship and leave.  That's impetus and motivation.

If the party holes up in a room, the monsters may find them and eventually break in (so they need to be escaping through the ventilation shafts), or the room has a leak and will run out of oxygen if they don't leave (or perhaps an asteroid is heading for this room and will hit in an hour).

basically, something bad is going to happen if the party does NOT take action.  By taking action, just do the normal pulls to enable that, and you don't need a lot of monster attacks, etc.  this is kind of like the montage you see in horror films where the remaining actors start setting up defenses, making weapons, moving to a new part of the ship.  It's like the monster has completely vanished for a time.  Because tha actors are busy doing stuff, you don't need monsters.


----------



## Monglo

Im Hosting my first Dread game tomorrow using the Under the Metal Sky scenario. It seems to be the most popular here.

They are a corp. grunts sent on a secret mission to retrieve valuable cargo from a colony ship. I hope they'll retain enough motivation to explore the ship for the cargo after they realize the ship has been abandoned.

Also looking forward to using Jenga for the only game mechanic. Hope I can get the pace of making the pulls right. "The Tower dictates the pacing" have to remember that.

A quick question: what variations on the symbiote hive-monsters have you used in this scenario. My players havent really given much critter phobias to exploit as an inspiration. Medic wrote that the weirdest thing he encountered was a "Predator" planet, using tentacles to consume everything on its way. So a tentacled blob for a symbiote it is, I guess.

Wish me luck and Long live the Dread-ed Lich thread!.


----------



## Janx

Monglo said:


> They are a corp. grunts sent on a secret mission to retrieve valuable cargo from a colony ship. I hope they'll retain enough motivation to explore the ship for the cargo after they realize the ship has been abandoned.




naturally, I'm a day late, so I hope yer game went well.

I was gonna recommend adjusting your premise, which would help reduce the problems the other guy had.

Namely, the ship is carrying cargo, one of the containers is for the corporation.

The ship suffers a problem, and ceases communication.  Last message was the engine was down.  You might have the ship drift into an asteroid belt for added threat later.

So the corporation sends the PCs to get to the ship and return with that precious cargo before scavengers get to it first.

This sets the tone on WHY the party would go to the ship and that the initial percieved danger is asteroids and scavengers.

This means you can start the adventure AT the ship, or navigating through the asteroid field for a few extra initial pulls.  It also sets the danger level that there may be combat with bad guys.

It's hard for players to argue that they accepted that premise while refusing to initially board the ship.

Once aboard, they'll have to explore a bit to get to the hold.  If you spring on the big scary and they want to bolt, you can use the asteroid belt to damage their own ship, making them needing to scavenge parts to fix their ride.

the goal being, to get them to go deeper, keep moving, and eventually work towards escape as the second half, rather than the immediate reaction.


----------



## Monglo

Well, the game went  relatively well. Some of the people didnt make it, so we had only 3 players. One of the players was reluctant to pull and didnt understand why he would risk dying. To the point that he didnt want to do anything, since even declining to pull would mean some sort of a complication.
Still the game worked really well with the tension of deciding when to pull or not and seeing the tower becoming more and more unstable.

Motivational problems luckily didnt come up, since  the Captain's player understood the whole "putting himself in danger" horror theme.

Overall, the game was enjoyed by everyone, the unique Tower mechanic was engaging and brought a sort of excitement I dont think we ever experienced at the table.

The only thing is that I really dont see using it for long-term games. As in more than a couple of sessions in the row. 
My group has agreed to try it again next week and Im looking for a scenario at the moment. Ive read the three official ones. Liked the premises, but my players have said that they'd like to try something other than a horror game.
Is there anything out there that could be considered not-horror Dread scenario? Maybe someone has documented his try at something similar. Like Piratecat's reality-show idea?


----------



## Wednesday Boy

Monglo said:


> My group has agreed to try it again next week and Im looking for a scenario at the moment. Ive read the three official ones. Liked the premises, but my players have said that they'd like to try something other than a horror game.
> Is there anything out there that could be considered not-horror Dread scenario? Maybe someone has documented his try at something similar. Like Piratecat's reality-show idea?




Chad from Fear The Boot adapted the rules to use for an Inception inspired game.


----------



## Janx

Monglo said:


> Well, the game went  relatively well. Some of the people didnt make it, so we had only 3 players. One of the players was reluctant to pull and didnt understand why he would risk dying. To the point that he didnt want to do anything, since even declining to pull would mean some sort of a complication.




I saw that with one player the first time I ran Dread.  In D&D, that same player would have no problem running into a dungeon and killing monsters.  Whereas, in Dread, there is a direct and obvious cause and effect to pulling = risk.  For some players, this seems to cause hyper-avoidance of risk, that isn't present in normal RPGs.

I think one way around that with that kind of player is to do what horror movies do. Bring the trouble to the PC.  The PC does not NEED to enter the haunted house for your monster to get at her.  Instead, the monster finds and pursues the PC wherever she is.  Ellen Ripley was going to sit on that ship and not let Kane back in.  Heck, it's like Sigourney was refusing to make any pulls because she KNEW that thing was bad.

For a passive player, forcing them to take action or suffer bad things is the way to get them moving.  Luckily, Ash let Kane back in, against Ripley's orders.  After that, bad stuff happens and Ripley HAS to start taking action or get grabbed.

I think the trick there is interpreting "if you don't pull" as a threat of something worse than death.  Like getting implanted with a symbiote and taken out of play.

Horror movies are a bit heavy handed, because certain death and doom is on the table.  The bad guys are railroading the PCs into certain locations and inflicting impending pain on them.

It ain't a sandbox, where the PCs can choose to investigate the haunted house or go do something else.

Though I think that philosophy should coupled with giving the PCs meaningful choices within the situation they are thrust into.  To me, that means allowing the players to find a solution or escape so some of them live.


----------



## Plane Sailing

Monglo said:


> Maybe someone has documented his try at something similar. Like Piratecat's reality-show idea?




Oh, that was horror all right!


----------



## Piratecat

Monglo said:


> Is there anything out there that could be considered not-horror Dread scenario? Maybe someone has documented his try at something similar. Like Piratecat's reality-show idea?



Yep, that was definitely horror.

I know that someone runs Paranoia using Dread, and  [MENTION=3448]Cerebral Paladin[/MENTION] has developed Heroic Dread, which he uses for naval ship battles and other exciting non-horror games.


----------



## UselessTriviaMan

It took me a couple of days, but I finally got through reading this entire 53-page monstrosity. (How in the world did I not see this thread before?!) I recently bought Dread, but believe it or not it wasn't because of you guys.

It was because of an awesomely-portrayed Dread game in a webcomic. (Several of the characters -especially Brett and Charlie - have a tendency to spout profanities. It's mildly NSFW - FYI.) And it also included a fascinating twist to the Dread game that I can't wait to use in a game one of these days.


----------



## malcolypse

That comic is amazing! I love it, it makes me want to play Dread again soon. Thanks for sharing it, UTM.


----------



## Janx

I think I found a source for Dread ideas.

the SCP Foundation is apparently a fictional agency where real world folks have been writing fiction about "unusual" objects for some time.

http://www.scp-wiki.net/

When I first heard of it, it sounded like a good fit for Dread.


----------



## malcolypse

Oooh, SCP is perfect Dread fuel. I like it. Thankx Janx.


----------



## mythago

While the Jenga mechanic really is innovative (and was blown away by the point about how it shows results over time), for my money the less innovative, but far more useful mechanic, is the character questionnaire. As a player it's an incredibly useful tool for brainstorming ideas about your character, and it's amazingly fun when a throwaway bit on your sheet turns out to be a huge part of the game. As a GM it's an absolutely unprecedented way to set the tone of the game and to steer your players. Of course, players often go in much different directions than you expect when you steer them! But still.

(warning: blather ahead)

I ran Dread last time we played, and I didn't find the questions hard exactly, but I spent a lot of time crafting them so I'd have a good mix of questions. I find a good way to think about them beyond a distribution of who/what/where/when/why/how is whether they're open ended vs. leading and neutral vs. intrusive, because they accomplish different things:

*Open-ended/neutral*: "Where'd you get those shoes?" A good way to get players to think about their character and give you a glimpse of their personality that might not have much to do with the game per se. These are fun to repeat across character sheets to see what different answers you get. They don't elicit game-specific information and aren't terribly useful to shape the character, for the most part. I try to avoid slipping into yes/no questions, which even with good players seem to prompt a limited response; "Do you wear underpants?" is not going to get as good an answer as "Boxers or briefs?" (to which you know That Player is going to answer "Boyshorts").

*Open-ended/intrusive*: "What would you die of embarrassment to have anyone know?" Better at shaping the character, especially if your intrusive question goes to the theme of the game (e.g., the players are trapped in a modern version of _No Exit_).

*Leading/neutral*: "Why have you stayed at your job as long as you have?" Not intrusive or offensive, probably, but you're now dictating facts to the player; she's got a job, she's been there for an unusually long period of time for that job, and there's a reason for it.

*Leading/intrusive:* "Who else knows what you really did to your father?" Dictating facts to the player again, and in a way that leans heavily on them to either embrace something unpleasant or deny it. It's easy to overdo these questions because they fit so well with the horror theme.

I found it worked best (both as a player and GM) to have a light touch with leading things, and tone can make a huge difference in how you shape the character. Say I want to imply that a character is a collector. "Good grief, how many of those things do you even have?" is very different than "What object do you collect as a hobby?"; "What's your worst habit?" is much lighter than "You know that's going to kill you someday, so why can't you stop?"

You effectively have only 12 questions per character since one of them will almost certainly be "What's your name?" and others will have to establish facts relevant to the game setting. It's surprising, after slaving over a whole passel of questions, how quickly they go when you start to divvy them up.

Here's a few questions I threw at my group of 'tormented artists':



Why do you take such pains to conceal how much money you really have? 
She didn’t make it big, but you did. How do you feel about that? 
Isn’t there anyone you can talk to about your fears? Anyone at all? 
What milestone or accomplishment did you complete many years after most people do? 
What one question are you always asked in interviews but always refuse to answer? 
You wish you could go back and apologize for what you did; why can’t you? 
Don’t you think you should stop doing that to yourself? 
Where were you, exactly, when you received that phone call? 
How do you react when someone tells you they’re a fan of your work? 
Who gave you that scar? 
Everybody says it wasn’t your fault. Are they right? 
Don’t you miss him, even a little bit? 
Why do you lie about your ethnic background? 
What’s in the shoebox?


----------



## Wednesday Boy

mythago said:


> ...it's amazingly fun when a throwaway bit on your sheet turns out to be a huge part of the game.




I really enjoyed that as well.  As the GM I found it fun to pore over the questionaires and create a scene from those throwaway bits that would elicit a pull or two from the tower.  When I ran the sci-fi scenario in the book one of the players mentioned a space-dwelling animal into a questionaire response and I had fun finding a place for it in the scenario.


----------



## Janx

malcolypse said:


> Oooh, SCP is perfect Dread fuel. I like it. Thankx Janx.




The first thing I thought of was Dread when I saw what SCP was.  I heard about it on the XenoMiner forums, an Xbox Indie game, and somebody started a talking about SCP and apparently there's an indie PC game for that.

It was all very cryptic to figure out the topic, and when I had, it looked like a natural fit.  Scary objects.  Secret organization.  Secure. Contain. Protect.

I got the Dread rule book last summer when I was at The Source.  I was thinking of a zombie survival game, but SCP looks like another good setting with plenty of source material.


----------



## pemerton

[MENTION=3019]mythago[/MENTION], I'm not a Dread player or GM but your post on character-building questionnaires was great!


----------



## Janx

pemerton said:


> [MENTION=3019]mythago[/MENTION], I'm not a Dread player or GM but your post on character-building questionnaires was great!




That was a great breakdown on the kinds of questions to ask.  Understanding those can lead to asking better questions, or more varied questions.

I'm more fond of leading questions that allow for open-ended answers.

So I would probably never use "where did you get those shoes" as it mostly opens to door for a silly answer or a non-significant one.  Other folks may get plenty of mileage out of it, but I'd rather burn a question on something else.

I like this type of question: "Everybody says it wasn’t your fault. Are they right?"
As a GM, I'm establishing a fact, something "bad" happened.  The player has an opportunity to make something tragic, dramatic, or secretive that should shape how the character is played.

And the beauty of it is, it can be reworded for variations of meaning for different PCs:
"Everybody says it was your fault. Why did you take the blame?"
"Everybody says it was your fault. What really happened?"

I always try for one question like that, sometimes fully open ended, other times tying in family or work into it:
"Why are people whispering about you and what really happened on LV-241?"
"Why is it important that you serve on THIS ship, instead of the better offer you had?"


----------



## mythago

So I'm preparing to run another Dread game this weekend. Last time I simply gave the players a general overview of the game setting and handed them some character sheets, without much specific direction other than telling them they were all artist. I think it made the game a little too directionless. This time, I prepared a list of different character 'roles' specific to the setting (America, 1971, vaguely government/political themed, everybody has worked for the same slightly mysterious Mr. Johnson figure). They were instructed to pick their first and second choices - interestingly, nobody overlapped.

The questionnaires each have at least one question linking them to another character; these are all one-way because I didn't see any feasible way to keep the stories from being entirely divergent. There is at least one question probing into their ties to Mr. Johnson. Everybody also got the questions "What did you want to be when you grow up?" and "What is your name?" The rest of the questions are random, though a lot of them are tied to the setting, such as "Is your 4-F status legitimate?"


----------



## mythago

So having run a couple of Dread games with radically different themes - 

"The Solar Lodge", where the players were tormented artists going to a famous retreat-in-the-woods to get away from it all and work on their art in peace. Of course it turned out not to be quite the peaceful idyll that they were expecting. With this game, I simply told the players they were artists of some sort and were otherwise free to pick what they liked about their characters. 

"Gold is the Metal", set in 1971, where a group of political radicals, Vietnam veterans and politicos were sent to a remote location in the Solomon Islands to track down rumors of the Philosopher's Stone, with the prize being the ability to save the gold standard and thus rescue the US economy. For this game I gave them less choice: I presented them with a list of 1970s archetype characters, ranging from "Former combat medic" to "Prominent Neo-Satanist" and told them to pick their first and second choices. I also gave each person at least one question that tied them to another character. This is tricky because you can't be sure that the person on the other end of the question is going to have the first clue about whatever they come up with - so the questions were all 'one way' and didn't require the other player to know of it at all, e.g. "You met the helicopter pilot once when you were younger; why do you doubt he remembers you?"

It was interesting to see what the players found important and what they didn't, and how they pushed back on the game's plot . In "The Solar Lodge", I had asked one of the players "Where is your little sister buried?" and he replied that she was buried right on the grounds of the aforementioned resort, where he visited her grave every year. O-kay, I had not planned on _anyone_ on this group having been there before, but it didn't seem right to veto this. So the players show up, and the first thing he wants to do is visit his sister's grave. Which isn't there; instead, he finds a stand of maple trees that are clearly a few decades old on that spot. None of the caretakers (who are, by complete coincidence, new from last season) has any knowledge of a grave ever having been there, and there's nothing on the maps....

I had intended this to be a throwaway creepy moment, but the obsession about finding what happened to his sister's grave turned into a major plot point for the game, and eventually a huge reason for this character's descent into madness and death.

Conversely, I learned that  you can have real problems with a player who doesn't pay attention to their character sheet or who needs to "up their metagame," as one friend of mine puts it. One player, who is normally a very creative and involved RPer, has a tendency to procrastinate and waited until after being reminded a couple of times to turn in their character sheet. This player also doesn't seem to get that the questions are a hint to what might be important in the game. So, for example, in response to "Why are you more dangerous than you look?" the player wrote "I'm not dangerous! But I can take care of myself", and when asked "Does anyone else know about your work for the FBI?" gave an extremely vague answer about having been on a watch list. The end result of this is that the player ended up sitting on the sidelines a lot instead of getting involved in the main plot, combat, etc. and I had to stretch a little to find ways that she could take center stage at all.

Looking forward to running it again!


----------



## Janx

Sounds like a cool setup  [MENTION=3019]mythago[/MENTION].

I like how you accepted the player's surprise decision to put the grave on the island.

I think that ought to be standard.  Once the GM writes a loaded question to guide the PC's creation a certain way, the GM needs to accept almost anything the player writes down.

This forces the GM to adapt to the organic situation in the same way the players have to, thus ensuring each run of the game is different and surprising for the GM as well.

There's naturally going to be exceptions, but they should be over game balance or group disruption issues.


----------



## UselessTriviaMan

*Necro-Dread!*

I'm almost finished prepping my first-ever Dread game, and I can't friggin' wait.


In completely, utterly unrelated news... Did you know that the island of Tristan da Cunha in the South Atlantic is considered the single most remote isle on the planet?? It's a 5-6 day boat ride from Capetown, South Africa just to get there. 

This should be the ultimate tropical paradise getaway... but then why are people screaming??


----------



## mythago

UselessTriviaMan said:


> I'm almost finished prepping my first-ever Dread game, and I can't friggin' wait.
> 
> 
> In completely, utterly unrelated news... Did you know that the island of Tristan da Cunha in the South Atlantic is considered the single most remote isle on the planet?? It's a 5-6 day boat ride from Capetown, South Africa just to get there.
> 
> This should be the ultimate tropical paradise getaway... but then why are people screaming??




How'd it go?


----------



## UselessTriviaMan

It was friggin' _awesome_. I ran two playtests for our upcoming convention over the weekend, and Dread went absolutely beautifully. My players were all veteran gamers (and some were veteran horror gamers), and everybody had a blast.

(I can't go into scenario details yet, but eventually I'll fill y'all in on the secrets.)

Things I learned:

1. Props are SO useful, especially for convention one-shot games. They really assist with the immersion if done right.

2. The Tower can turn jaded horror movie buffs into squeamishly terrified children. Seriously, one gamer curled herself into a ball as soon as there was the slightest wobble.

3. Be VERY clear about when players need to pull. The only hitch in the game was when a player intentionally knocked the tower over because he thought an NPC needed to pull; he wanted to pull for the NPC and intentionally fail so she'd die. He did it too quickly for me to stop him in time, but after explaining the actual rule we gave him a mulligan. (Although we did make him restart the tower afterwards.)

4. Players need hope. Don't take everything away from them. Or, at least don't take everything away too early in the game. 


Thank you all for sharing the fantastic advice, tips and information about how to run a successful Dread game. I'm gonna be using this system for many, many years.


----------



## Eunomiac

I love getting that "someone just responded to the Dread thread" email---this is my favorite tabletop game bar none.  

Has anyone recorded video of a Dread game?  It's one of those things people need to see to fully appreciate, and I'd love it if there were a YouTube link I could point them to.


----------



## Wednesday Boy

UselessTriviaMan said:


> 3. Be VERY clear about when players need to pull. The only hitch in the game was when a player intentionally knocked the tower over because he thought an NPC needed to pull; he wanted to pull for the NPC and intentionally fail so she'd die. He did it too quickly for me to stop him in time, but after explaining the actual rule we gave him a mulligan. (Although we did make him restart the tower afterwards.)




Something similar happen in a game I ran.  About two-thirds of the way through my friend had bad luck and knocked over the tower.  I used the Dead Man Walking rule to keep him in the game but he forgot about it when the climax of the story rolled around.  His captain was about to be attacked so he rousingly shouted "Thank you, sir.  It's been an honor!  Aaaaaugh!!", "took the bullet" for his captain, and emphatically knocked the tower to the floor.  After a brief moment of surprised silence we rebuilt the tower as best we could.  But since his acting was so dramatic and appropriate we let his sacrifice stand.


----------



## Eunomiac

Wednesday Boy said:


> I used the Dead Man Walking rule to keep him in the game...



Something I've always done --- literally from the very first game I ran, the Grand Canyon werewolf adventure from the main book---is make the first "Dead Man Walking" something really special, so they remain invested in playing.  

Using the example of the Grand Canyon adventure, one of my players knocked the tower over right at the start, while carrying the guide's body over some treacherous terrain immediately following the initial attack.  So I explained the Dead Man Walking rule to the group, and gave him a "Broken Leg"***---now he was dead weight that everyone else had to carry along (or convince themselves they could sleep at night if they left him behind).

_***Aside:  One thing I love doing is giving each player a postcard-sized bit of cardboard to wear around their neck with a lanyard.  It has a flavorful picture as the background, and space for them to write their name at the top.  Then, whenever something bad happens during the game (e.g. they refuse to pull to resist being "Panicked" or, in this case, if they get a "Broken Leg"), I write the complication on a sticker and affix it to their card---think Boy Scout merit badges from Hell.  As the game goes on, players looking around the table see those complications steadily mounting, ratcheting up the tension and---most importantly---giving me a TON of control over how often pulls are required._​
Anyways.  After announcing his "Broken Leg" , I took him aside and out of earshot.  Boy, was he surprised when I informed him that _he_ was the werewolf that attacked the guide in the night! _(The werewolf that would be chasing them for the rest of the adventure was his mate.) _ Armed with this knowledge, he had a blast playing the crippled guy who needed to be carried everywhere... especially when I started making things hard for him, by dropping hints on the other players (e.g. the person supporting him was wearing a painfully-silver watch; hinting at his fast healing---"looks like his leg wasn't broken after all, merely sprained"; having the other werewolf's ambush attacks constantly avoid him for a more-distant target, etc.)

I ultimately cashed in Dead Man Walking at the climax, but let him control his character as the second werewolf during the final encounter---a bit of controlled PVP that ended up working really well for everyone.

In fact, this reminds me of another awesome thing that happened during a later run-through of the same Grand Canyon story, with a different group.  I asked one player a question that came right out of the book:  "You're convinced the guide was attacked by a werewolf.  Why do you believe in werewolves?"  His four-word answer was more interesting than everyone else's put together: 

_"Because I am one." _ 

Gotta love it when players throw you for a loop---that's what makes Dread so much fun for the host!


----------



## Piratecat

Mythago, those sound _amazing_. Why are you on the other coast again?

I love Dead Man walking. I once used it in a game where the PCs were down in Mexico, being hunted around an island resort by a madman. Some of the PCs were huddled around a tiki torch for light, when something rolled in out of the darkness. "What is it?" asked one player, whose PC was up at the cabins. "IT'S YOUR HEAD," I said. She'd completely forgotten that she'd knocked down the tower earlier, and it freaked everyone out wonderfully.

In another case, a ghost possessed the body of the dead man walking, and she spent the rest of the game trying to surreptitiously kill her character's brother by steering him into dangerous situations. The other player didn't figure it out for hours. When he did, it completely recast everything in the game in an entirely new light.

Man, I love this game.


----------



## UselessTriviaMan

And I've now run my first Dread convention game.

I'm happy to report that it seemed to be a smash hit, from all reports. My players (none of whom had ever even heard of Dread) had a blast, and apparently all the other tables in the hall were wondering why the people gathered 'round the Jenga tower were wearing bright yellow leis and having so much fun. 

Things I learned this weekend:

* Apparently the new iPhone 6 has an add-on taser.
* A blood analysis test can be done in the field, in a golf cart, in the middle of a medium-speed chase, by a desperate pharmacist.
* Given the opportunity, players will totally create utterly screwed-up, broken people to play as their characters. At one point four of my six PCs were high as a kite on the meth they'd brought with them on a tropical island vacation.
* It's nothing less than astounding when a player accidentally writes down an answer that perfectly fits the game. (I mean really, what are the chances that a celebrity learned how to arm/disarm nuclear devices for a movie role??) :blink:

I can't wait to do this again. Seriously.


----------



## Piratecat

Hey, this thread is eight years old! And I STILL love this game. 

Want to see me run it? I filmed a time travel-themed horror game for the website Gamers With Jobs, running Dread for 5 exceptional players. Here's part one:

http://www.gamerswithjobs.com/node/120154


----------



## mythago

Piratecat said:


> I love Dead Man walking. I once used it in a game where the PCs were down in Mexico, being hunted around an island resort by a madman. Some of the PCs were huddled around a tiki torch for light, when something rolled in out of the darkness. "What is it?" asked one player, whose PC was up at the cabins. "IT'S YOUR HEAD," I said. She'd completely forgotten that she'd knocked down the tower earlier, and it freaked everyone out wonderfully.




I beg to differ, sir! It is _you_ who are most vexingly located on the opposite coast!

Eunomiac, I love when players do that. I think my favorite in the 'pure atmosphere' category was the player who, in response to "You wish you could go back and apologize for what you did; why can’t you?" replied with *Well, they're all dead now, aren't they.*

Er.

Also, a Dread book recommendation: Bait. It's a little uneven as a book, but I was _sick_ that I hadn't thought of the book's premise as a Dread game: A group of heroin addicts, none of whom know each other, wake up on a small tropical island. They can see other islands around, a short swim away. There's a cooler with some sandwiches, water, and a note. The note tells them they're isolated from help, and nobody is coming to rescue them; but on the next island over, there's another cooler, which has more sandwiches, water....and heroin.

They immediately realize their dilemma. They can stay put, of course, and avoid the potentially hungry sharks and other predators that live in these waters, but sooner or later their addiction is going to flare up, and it will cripple them. The longer they put it off, the worse the withdrawal symptoms are going to be, and the harder it's going to be to swim the doable-but-not-trivial distance to the next island. And of course there's the fact that probably the sharks can't eat _everybody_ at the same time, so maybe if they all go together and cooperate they'll make it. Though if the sharks eat somebody else, that helps your own survival..... 

It's a beautiful thing.


----------



## Middle Snu

Piratecat said:


> Hey, this thread is eight years old! And I STILL love this game.
> 
> Want to see me run it? I filmed a time travel-themed horror game for the website Gamers With Jobs, running Dread for 5 exceptional players. Here's part one:
> 
> http://www.gamerswithjobs.com/node/120154




Maybe this is the sort of message that should be reserved for a private message, but I just wanted to share: That recording is AWESOME. Seriously, you did an amazing job (and had a great bunch of players!). Watching it was just a darn good use of two hours (so far - still waiting on part 3.)

Before I watched the video, I don't think I ever 'got' Dread - how can you have a game where any action is discretionary? Where there are only one mechanic? Maybe I  was just too set in the "D&D" style of roleplaying. 

Anyway, I'm eagerly awaiting Part 3 - and running my own Dread game!


----------



## Piratecat

Oh man, [MENTION=51652]Middle Snu[/MENTION], that's really nice to hear. I'm glad it's fun for people other than just me. Thank you.

I'm convinced that Dread is really all about pacing and mood. The ending of this one.. heh. The ending is good.


----------



## Nytmare

I'm kinda disappointed to discover that you are neither bucaneer, nor felidae.  

Are any of the cast of players Enworlders?


----------



## Rodrigo Istalindir

Having a gaming weekend starting Thursday with a bunch of friends, some of whom are casual and/or relatively new to gaming.  Going to use this opportunity to dust off my "MIA" Dread game.  Bodies appearing on the border of Miami International Airport and the Everglades during the Miami Vice era.


----------



## Piratecat

I am both buccaneer AND feline, honest. That's just my disguise. I don't think any of those folks are EN Worlders; I know them all through the Gamers With Jobs podcast and community, which is wonderful in its own right. 

Part three, the final bit, and the character sheets are up! (Edit: don't follow the auto-link for Character sheets. It leads to D&D sheets! instead, they're here.)

http://www.gamerswithjobs.com/node/120271#comment-3257264


----------



## Middle Snu

GREAT ending. One question around running these games:

After the stack is knocked over, there is a notable decrease in tension, since you re-build it. How do you manage this over the course of the game? If someone dies just before the grand climax, how do you avoid making it seem easy afterwards?


----------



## Nytmare

One thing that you do when you rebuild the tower is that you have the players remove three blocks for every character that has been removed from the game so far.  Beyond that, it just comes down to a matter of pacing and requiring more pulls from the characters to match the needed tension.


----------



## Klataubarada

Just an FYI. Will Wheaton just did Dread for one of his TableTop episodes. I like the creativity that can go into what causes a character to pull from the stack. Very interesting game!


----------



## n64Smaug

So...New player here, gamemastered Star Wars for about 4 years, but recently retired that  I recently saw Dread on Tabletop, and thought it looked super awesome, so I picked up the pdf and am planning to run Beneath the Mask for a group of gamer friends mixed with some horror fan friends, I read this whole thread over the last couple of days and picked up some great tips! Just wanted to ask for any advice or experience stories related specifically to the scenario. Really hyped up about dread and the whole questionnaire thing. One specific question that I have is how do you suggest doing the Questionaires for Beneath the Mask, all the characters have questions that relate to the murder, so if I send out the questionaires ahead of time as many of you suggest, I clue my group in on the storyline before we even start, and I don't really like that, should I just do the questionaires in person? Before or after the intro? 

Thanks in advance, I know you guys have great advice!


----------



## TarionzCousin

Piratecat said:


> Hey, this thread is eight years old! And I STILL love this game.



Upon seeing this thread pop up again, my first thought was "Spam has necromanced another old thread." But then I remembered that people periodically post their Dread game experiences here.

Now I have hours (three hours?) of gaming to watch.


----------



## Random221B

Piratecat said:


> Hey, this thread is eight years old! And I STILL love this game.
> 
> Want to see me run it? I filmed a time travel-themed horror game for the website Gamers With Jobs, running Dread for 5 exceptional players. Here's part one:
> 
> http://www.gamerswithjobs.com/node/120154




Just watched this whole thing, and I really enjoyed it.  All the players were great, but Jason and Dr. Clark were both particularly killing me.  "I've never been in space before, do whatever it is you do.  Space darts, f-ing space poison, I don't give a $#!+."  

The confessional was particularly interesting.  I know you've mentioned it in this thread before, but I can't remember the specifics, and don't have the time or mental fortitude to go back through the whole thread looking, so do you mind if I ask about it?  From what I could tell, people could make a reality-show-style "confession" in place of making a pull.  but are there any limitations on when or how often they can do that?  I realize good players aren't going to take advantage of that to avoid ever having to make a pull, but just wondered if there was any more structure to the way you use it than just "make a confession in place of a pull"?  It seems like something I might like to adopt in my own runs of Dread, and I'd love to know if there is...well...more I should know.  

The other thing I found very interesting is that each of the PCs had sort of an "archetype counterpart" on the mission crew; Top level company exec (Jason/Jack), pilot (Chad/Kasami), mathematician-physicist (Patrick/Irene) medical doctor (Valentina/Seiji), and station astronaut (Annifer/Curt).  Was this just to give each PC a direct connection to one of the crew members?  Or was there a deeper intent to it, like, were the crew members supposed to each be some kind of symbolic reflection of the PCs...like they could see themselves in their counterparts, as a way of bringing the horror home more?  Because before the mission happened, I was expecting that the PCs would end up having to become some sort of backup crew, since they filled all the same roles as the people who were going.  That there didn't ultimately seem to be an obvious in-story reason for the "archetype duplication" started me wondering what the meta/themeatic-level reasons might be.  Just curious.

Thanks!

~~~~Random


----------



## Random221B

Hey folks, just curious if anyone is still checking in on, or getting alerts on, this thread.  I'd like to resurrect it again because it's always been the best place I've found to discuss Dread, and I have several games of it coming up that I'd love to get peoples' thoughts, ideas, and suggestions on.  But I don't want to spend the time and energy to write up everything I want to talk about, if nobody's watching.    So, if anyone is still following this thread, and would like to engage in discussion of some upcoming games, let me know, and I'll post my stuff.

Thanks!

~~~~Random


----------



## Rodrigo Istalindir

Any time someone bumps it it gets some traffic.  Epi used to joke that he could tell when someone bumped it because he'd get a couple new sales of Dread.

But lots of folks (including Piratecat) are busy at GenCon right now.

What are your ideas?


----------



## Janx

Good timing on the rez, I have a Dread game to prepare to run in September.

It's a friend's birthday, and he wants a Zombie theme.  So folks will attend, dressed as a Survivor.  Play Dead of Winter and Dread.

We're considering planking up the windows in the kitchen (3 planks per ala Stateof Decay) so when we play, it'll look like we're holed up in a house with zombies outside.

Here's my thinking:
everybody shows up in character as a survivor and brings up to 2 props (fake guns, no real).  If nobody brings a flashlight, then there's no flashlights in the game (or at least not for a while).

My friend worries that Dread is too open ended and is just about getting to a TPK, so I want to frame up a end goal and some rules of engagement (that we won't tell the players what they are).

I've got some concepts I'm thinking of like:

Set the goal to get to an escape point (ex. army evac at XYZ in 3 days ala Left 4 Dead)

Plan a set number of areas/challenges (like a collapsed bridge with a high river to get across)

Throw in a zombie surge when the players sit too long (ex 10 minutes, argue too much, do something stupid) to keep the game moving

Zombie surge generally means the party needs to repel or escape, which should take a few steps to resolve and thus a good number of pulls.

What ideas do y'all have?


----------



## UselessTriviaMan

Random221B said:


> Hey folks, just curious if anyone is still checking in on, or getting alerts on, this thread.  I'd like to resurrect it again because it's always been the best place I've found to discuss Dread, and I have several games of it coming up that I'd love to get peoples' thoughts, ideas, and suggestions on.  But I don't want to spend the time and energy to write up everything I want to talk about, if nobody's watching.    So, if anyone is still following this thread, and would like to engage in discussion of some upcoming games, let me know, and I'll post my stuff.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> ~~~~Random



I still check this thread every time I see it bumped, and still love this game. I'm planning to run Dread again at my local convention in a couple of months.

As for your Zombie game, just a couple of questions:


Are you setting a time limit, or do you want to get through a specific number of encounters? Ideally you'll be able to do both, but the game goes astray the moment you start to play.  I run Dread at conventions, so I have a 4-hour timer. I try to have a couple of extra encounters in my back pocket, just in case they surprise me and unexpectedly blow through everything I had planned.
Why does he expect a TPK? Previous experience, or just paranoid? 
The PCs definitely need hope. Just grinding 'em down with wave after wave of zombies until they're all dead would be a pretty sucky game. I agree that they need a goal; the "Get to dah choppah!" extraction is a great one, as is "GTFO of the city before they nuke it" and "I can't leave yet, I have to get home to save my family first!" (Okay, this one wasn't a question. Just tossing in a couple of other ideas for end goals.)


----------



## Janx

UselessTriviaMan said:


> I still check this thread every time I see it bumped, and still love this game. I'm planning to run Dread again at my local convention in a couple of months.
> 
> As for your Zombie game, just a couple of questions:
> 
> 
> Are you setting a time limit, or do you want to get through a specific number of encounters? Ideally you'll be able to do both, but the game goes astray the moment you start to play.  I run Dread at conventions, so I have a 4-hour timer. I try to have a couple of extra encounters in my back pocket, just in case they surprise me and unexpectedly blow through everything I had planned.
> Why does he expect a TPK? Previous experience, or just paranoid?
> The PCs definitely need hope. Just grinding 'em down with wave after wave of zombies until they're all dead would be a pretty sucky game. I agree that they need a goal; the "Get to dah choppah!" extraction is a great one, as is "GTFO of the city before they nuke it" and "I can't leave yet, I have to get home to save my family first!" (Okay, this one wasn't a question. Just tossing in a couple of other ideas for end goals.)




1) about 4 hours is the time length I'm looking for.
2) because he was the guinea pig when I first got the game and we just tried a free form run of it...
3) I may set it up as some "get to the evac" as a general goal, with an individual question of "what do you need to get done before you reach the Evac" which might satisfy the alternative goals (or totally side track the main goal).

I might set the time limit as a real time limit.  So if the game starts at Noon, the players have until 4PM to reach the Evac...  I'd tell them that before they pick their personal goal so they pick something "quick"

With each player bringing a prop, I want to try to stage a situation where different prop types will lead to an advantage (or disadvantage for lack of item).  Weapons are obvious, so I want to cover the less obvious things like:
light source
food
tools
fire source
medical/first aid
???

I've pondered doing the encounters off a random encounter table, so as they head towards the Evac, they come across different situations.

I'll probably run the game in the real world, so the game would start in my house, literally.  They'd get word of the Evac and then they'd look at Google Maps for how to get there.  Since we all live around here, it'll be interesting...


----------



## Random221B

Rodrigo Istalindir said:


> Any time someone bumps it it gets some traffic.  Epi used to joke that he could tell when someone bumped it because he'd get a couple new sales of Dread.
> 
> But lots of folks (including Piratecat) are busy at GenCon right now.
> 
> What are your ideas?




Gencon!  Silly me, that completely slipped my mind.  Thanks for the reminder.  

I have a few things I want to run past people, but I'll start with one, for now.

I'm planning to run the scenario "Aphrodite's Harvest" (originally written for All Flesh Must Be Eaten - it can be found here for those unfamiliar with it) for Dread.

The very basic overview is this: Earth has sent a colony ship filled with donated tissue and brain scans on a trip that will take hundreds or thousands of years, to a new world.  The idea being that when the ship reaches the new planet, the computer uses the donated tissue to grow clones of the original volunteers, then downloads the brain patterns into the clones, to create new colonists, who are duplicates of a group of people who donated all of this back on earth.  The command crew is awoken when the ship reaches orbit, they go down to the planet and get a sample of an alien bug that infests them and kills them all, and then the computer grows new copies of them to try again.  The PCs are the second batch of clones, just waking up to discover something terrible has happened.

Now, alien-insect-larval-infection-zombies are certainly good horror fodder, but for me the potential for real horror in this scenario is early on, when the characters realize that they have already been awakened from cryosleep once, and died horribly, and that this is their second go-around.  They then encounter either zombified or murdered versions of themselves.  However, I feel like that horror is lessened at least a little bit, if they start the game already knowing they are clones.  They just don't know they are the second batch of clones.  I think it would be much more disturbing if they were (or believed they were) their original selves from Earth, until they learn they are clones, and the second batch at that.

I figure there are three possible ways to accomplish this:


The command crew were the actual, original people, shipped into space in cryo-sleep.  They were awakened by the computer, found the insects, and died.  The computer then used cloning facilities that were on the ship for a different reason (maybe the colonists were meant to be clones, but the crew were "originals" for some reason) and backup digital scans of the crew's brains to create clones/copies of them.
The command crew (as well as all of the colonists) are all clones, but the knowledge of this was edited from their brain scans, thus they awaken believing they are the originals.  When the second command crew awakens and discovers the remains of the first, this forces them to face the reality that they are--and were always going to be--clones.
When they are first released from their growth wombs, clones with digital brain scans downloaded have slightly fuzzy/scrambled memories for a little while.  They know who they are and why they are here, but just naturally assume they are the Originals from back on earth, until their memories become fully clear and they recall that they were always meant to be clones (or, until they encounter the horror of their previous selves.)

In the first case, there were only ever two sets of the command crew: the Originals from Earth, who were shipped via cryosleep and were killed by the bugs, and the clones who replace them (the PCs) who have no reason to think they are clones, until confronted with the truth.

In the second and third cases, there are three sets.  They go like this:

Second Case: Originals on Earth, who donated their genetic material and brain scans, but didn't actually travel; first set of clones grown when the ship reaches orbit, who have no reason to believe/realize they are clones (edited brain scans) who are killed by the bugs; second set of clones grown after the first set dies, who have no reason to believe/realize they are clones (edited brain scans) until confronted with the Horrible Truth {tm}.

Third Case:  Originals on Earth, who donated their genetic material and brain scans, but didn't actually travel; first set of clones grown when the ship reaches orbit, who don't initially remember they are clones (memory gaps from awakening process) who are killed by the bugs; second set of clones grown after the first set dies, who don't initially remember they are clones (memory gaps from awakening process) until confronted with the Horrible Truth {tm}.

I hope all of that makes sense.

In any case, a) do people agree that the sense-of-self horror is stronger if the PCs have no reason to believe they are clones, until confronted with the Horrible Truth{tm}, and b) which scenario do you think would work best to accomplish this, or do you have a different scenario to suggest?

Thanks for your time!

~~~~Random


----------



## Random221B

Janx said:


> 1) about 4 hours is the time length I'm looking for.
> 2) because he was the guinea pig when I first got the game and we just tried a free form run of it...
> 3) I may set it up as some "get to the evac" as a general goal, with an individual question of "what do you need to get done before you reach the Evac" which might satisfy the alternative goals (or totally side track the main goal).
> 
> I might set the time limit as a real time limit.  So if the game starts at Noon, the players have until 4PM to reach the Evac...  I'd tell them that before they pick their personal goal so they pick something "quick"
> 
> With each player bringing a prop, I want to try to stage a situation where different prop types will lead to an advantage (or disadvantage for lack of item).  Weapons are obvious, so I want to cover the less obvious things like:
> light source
> food
> tools
> fire source
> medical/first aid
> ???
> 
> I've pondered doing the encounters off a random encounter table, so as they head towards the Evac, they come across different situations.
> 
> I'll probably run the game in the real world, so the game would start in my house, literally.  They'd get word of the Evac and then they'd look at Google Maps for how to get there.  Since we all live around here, it'll be interesting...




This whole things sounds very cool.  I'm going to be running a zombie Dread scenario in a couple of weeks, myself (I have several Dread games scheduled over the next couple of months.)  I'll be back with my thoughts when I have a little more time.

~~~~Random


----------



## Janx

Random221B said:


> Gencon!  Silly me, that completely slipped my mind.  Thanks for the reminder.
> 
> I have a few things I want to run past people, but I'll start with one, for now.
> 
> I'm planning to run the scenario "Aphrodite's Harvest" (originally written for All Flesh Must Be Eaten - it can be found here for those unfamiliar with it) for Dread.
> 
> The very basic overview is this: Earth has sent a colony ship filled with donated tissue and brain scans on a trip that will take hundreds or thousands of years, to a new world.  The idea being that when the ship reaches the new planet, the computer uses the donated tissue to grow clones of the original volunteers, then downloads the brain patterns into the clones, to create new colonists, who are duplicates of a group of people who donated all of this back on earth.  The command crew is awoken when the ship reaches orbit, they go down to the planet and get a sample of an alien bug that infests them and kills them all, and then the computer grows new copies of them to try again.  The PCs are the second batch of clones, just waking up to discover something terrible has happened.




Borrow from the SyFy channe's Ascension mini-series.  The crew didn't know they were going to be cloned because knowing you're a clone was thought to cause psychological distress.

So the crew gets tested, scanned, sampled while thinking they are going to get on a rocket ship.  But instead, they get sent back home.  NASA then loads the rocket with the much lighter payload of data, DNA samples and Soylent Green for making clones out of.  When the ship arrives, the first batch of clones are printed and sent down to the planet.  They die.  Then the second batch gets printed.  Who notice the ship seems to have been occupied (by the previous crew, who woke up in a "CryoPod", got dressed, ate breakfast, and took a shuttle down.

That means there are missing clothes, some casual messes, a missing shuttle, and dirty dishes in the sink. Clues that somebody's been sleeping in my bed, before they take the 2nd shuttle down...


----------



## Random221B

Janx said:


> 1) about 4 hours is the time length I'm looking for.
> 2) because he was the guinea pig when I first got the game and we just tried a free form run of it...
> 3) I may set it up as some "get to the evac" as a general goal, with an individual question of "what do you need to get done before you reach the Evac" which might satisfy the alternative goals (or totally side track the main goal).
> 
> I might set the time limit as a real time limit.  So if the game starts at Noon, the players have until 4PM to reach the Evac...  I'd tell them that before they pick their personal goal so they pick something "quick"
> 
> With each player bringing a prop, I want to try to stage a situation where different prop types will lead to an advantage (or disadvantage for lack of item).  Weapons are obvious, so I want to cover the less obvious things like:
> light source
> food
> tools
> fire source
> medical/first aid
> ???
> 
> I've pondered doing the encounters off a random encounter table, so as they head towards the Evac, they come across different situations.
> 
> I'll probably run the game in the real world, so the game would start in my house, literally.  They'd get word of the Evac and then they'd look at Google Maps for how to get there.  Since we all live around here, it'll be interesting...




The "Get to the Evac" concept sounds pretty cool.  Also, if you want to give the game a little more plot, rather than just making it freeform "survive until you can get evac-ed" you might take a look at a few zombie apocalypse horror one-shots.  If you aren't already familiar with it, there's actually one written for Dread:

Disintegration

Also, a few "one-sheet" zombie scenarios associated with the War of the Dead campaign for Savage Worlds.  The beautiful thing about Dread, is it's the easiest game in the world to convert modules written for other systems into.    You can find those here:

Food for Thought
Outbreak at Hopewell
The Dead of Night

Just a few things to peruse, to see if there's anything you want to pull for your session.

Best,

~~~~Random


----------



## mythago

So how did the zombie game go?!

I'd also love to hear whether anyone's run Dread well as a con game. I'm really hesitant to do so because of the questionnaires - in my experience players tend to need time to prepare these, plus it's helpful for the GM to have them long enough ahead to allow game ideas to percolate. On the other hand, I have run a Dread game where I offered a list of archetypes to pick from, so even if I didn't know exactly what the answers were going to be, I knew the 'character classes' I'd be dealing with.


----------



## Neonchameleon

Saw this flaming Jenga and thought of this thread.


----------



## UselessTriviaMan

Anybody else still got a love affair going with Dread?

I've now run my homebrewed one-shot scenario five times, and I think it's probably polished up enough to share with any other Dread GMs who are interested.

_*Trouble in Paradise*: Two weeks on the most secluded inhabited island in the entire world sounded like a fantastic getaway idea. No cell phones, no internet - you'll be totally off the grid. This should be the most peaceful two weeks you've ever had... Wait. Why are people screaming??_

To properly run this game, however, you'll need to pick up a few inexpensive props: Yellow leis and yellow flowers to be tucked behind the ear of each female PC (up to 4, depending on player choices). (I couldn't find the specific flowered hair clips that I bought for my own game, but there are lots to choose from online.)

If any other Dread GMs are looking for a very memorable scenario, let me know and I'll happily share with the rest of the class.


----------



## UselessTriviaMan

Just in case you hadn't thought about it in a while, I just want to reiterate my love for this RPG. I ran it again on Saturday, and holy _crap_ did we have a good time. I'm spectacularly thankful that Gamicon chose to put us in the "Adult Themes Only" room, 'cuz hoo-boy. I think a couple of players even offended the other adults in the room with the in-character crudeness, but it was all in good fun.

And yet again: Props. Make. Games. Better.


----------



## Eunomiac

Keeping the Dread love alive with, I hope, a way to play it online!

I've tweaked a Jenga module for Tabletop Simulator (available on Steam), and so far it works pretty damn well:  http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1088019097  It really captures the tension of the wobbling tower.

(I'm still playing with the physics settings for the pieces---mass, friction, drag, gravity, that kind of thing---so let me know if you find values that better fit the pacing of the real thing!)


----------

