# Economy and D&D



## Loonook (May 8, 2012)

So I've been thinking due to a few threads about the actual intrinsic value of life for a humanoid in D&D versus a human being in our current time.  

From the age of adulthood (15 per 3.x PHB Table 6-4) to the maximum age range (110) a human unskilled laborer who never adventurers and just subsists earns 3467.5 GP.  The average life span of a peasant in the Middle Ages would be between 30-45, with lowest lifetime earnings between 540 gp - 1080 gp.

Overall if you survive to ages below you have a Net Worth of (includes costs of meager living 24 gp/yr.):


30: 180
35: 240
40: 300
45: 360
50: 420
55: 480.
...


The Soldier, from our previous thread (gaining a level at 19, 27, 39 due to grinding CR 1 encounters over his career at a rate of three per year... then kind of peter out...) would gain (6 GP/level/mo), figuring a meager lifestyle (2 GP/mo) as he is being provided a billet:


19: 192.
20: 312
25: 912.
27: 1152.
30: 1512.
39: 3456.
40: 3648.
50: 5568.
...

Probably 50 puts him at the 'old man' stage and you may be seeing this Watchman retiring, perhaps earning a pension at half of his ending wage.

Our longsword weaponmith, with a bit of continuing education and adventuring (1 CR 1 encounter every year) would have the same type of 'funds increases' if he makes longswords for the entirety of his career with payment of his 5 apprentices and maintenance/rental fees and a Common Lodging (45 GP/mo).


16: 1104.
20: 2738.
25: 6612
29: 11365
30: 12660 (Here's where I would personally stop going to the field  )
40: 25674.
...

These are raw amounts after payments for the Smith and does not include purchasing additional equipment and additional investments.  A Smith who makes it into his 40s is a lucky man, as the damage to the body by the forge and possible forging accidents would probably force most men into the background before this point.  The current rate figures unskilled apprentices as listed before for basic Aid checks.  I would also say that most smiths have additional fees, taxes, charges, etc. of at least 10-15%.

As we can see there is an pretty wide range of possible wealth over a lifespan, just as you would see in our own society... And this is just among three types (Soldier, Weaponsmith, and Unskilled Laborer).  

As you can see the Soldier or Smith can make a nice profit, enough to live well in their billets or personal lodgings.  The Smith could afford his own forge pretty quickly into his career, and get things done.  

So we have a baseline for our services.  The average D&D peasant, who lives to the ripe age of 50 is worth 1260 GP.  In real world currency we have an unskilled life's wages being worth around $147420 (with a GP worth a base of $117 and some change)... Meaning a year of peasant life sits at around $4212.

The average value of a year of quality life  in the US is around $50,000, or 427 GP.  The study cited in this article from Stanford Economists ca. 2008 puts the value of a 'good year' at 1102.56 GP.  In these terms the Blacksmith is sitting at a "value of life" just a little above the Stanford figure for a "good year", and a  6th level soldier has a quality of life a little better than the average value of life for a US citizen per insurance companies.

A PC classed character of level 1 is just below the 6th level Soldier for the year, and a 4th level adventurer is at about the same VoL as a Blacksmith.

But what exactly does VoL mean?  This is the amount that a continued year of existence... Would the prevention of death be worthwhile... So again, these numbers show what an individual's life is worth but what is a good D&D  background for value of life be?  In a world of magic curing disease and healing injury what would be a good baseline?

I believe the best baseline would be something that D&D has akin to such a treatment.  Something that a human in D&D can catch, that is consistently going to devalue their life and lead to death if untreated, and how much damage that effect will cost. 

----

Let us look at three common issues that would lower quality and value of life that can be dealt with in D&D:

Emergency Care
Magical Illness/Curse (Mummy Rot)
Loss of Limb
Unexpected Death (Body Intact)
Unexpected Death (Body Dispersed)
Unexpected Death (Body Unrecovered)

So how much does it cost to 'fix' these issues?

Emergency Care (CLW to Stabilize injury): 10 GP ($1170)
Mummy Rot (first time success minimum cost): 300 GP ($35,100)
Loss of Limb (Regeneration): 910 GP ($106,470)
Unexpected Death (Body Intact) [Raise Dead]: 5400 GP ($631,800)
UD (BD) [Resurrection]: 10910 ($1,276,470)
UD (BU) [True Resurrection]: 26530 ($3,104,010)

Emergency Care really only applies to an individual who has no time to heal, and in the case that someone can help to stabilize but needs further assistance.  

Expensive, yes?  If we consider 20% of their lifetime net worth being an appropriate savings for extreme medical issues, a Guard would be able to have his limb repaired as a 'retirement present'.  A peasant would be far beyond the ability to be cured of the Rot, while a Smith would, at 40, be able to make an expenditure to Raise themselves. 

But what about Resurrection?  Ahh... That is where it gets interesting .

Welcome to Compound Interest.

If the Smith pays, starting at his 16th year, 1/10 of his beginning net income (110.40 GP), invests it into the Guild or Church coffers, and continues until the age of 40, he would have the money for a Resurrection at a 4% interest rate by the age of 53.  

Why do I care about Resurrection specifically?  Because Resurrection creates one of the most interesting cases in D&D healing in one of my games: The Merchants of the City of Saria.

The Merchants of Saria kept their Patriarchs about for the purposes of crisis.  During the Elder Year (usually once every 40 years) the Elders of Saria would come back to life for a single year to drive forth the economy, then return to the dead.  

The Merchant Houses of Saria would elect an Elder who put forth a portion of his overall worth... And then allowed himself to be killed.  The greatest merchants of their time were recorded into the Book of Elders with a portrait, their birthplace, and a single finger bone.  The Elders, numbering 99 at any given time, would be called back over the Month of Resurrection, where three Clerics hired by the Merchant Lords spent 33 days to Resurrect each of the Lords.  Multiple Books of Elders were maintained in safety around the world, and each man had to pay for his own resurrection.

The overall cost for all 653400, around 6600 GP each. 

Now what about an individual who can trust their faith to bring them back?

If you have 200 GP and 127 years to burn, you can be True Resurrected at a later date from the Book of the Dead.  This would probably be reserved for individuals who are important to the Faith, but could also be extended to Merchants as an "in case of ruin" possibility, or as a long-term solution to outliving your rivals...

Of course you will be returning with your skills, a couple of hundred gold, and a shortened lifespan.  A merchant family would put some of their money to an account to prevent death of important retainers that could accrue over centuries... And in cases where there is an express need the individual may pay off their debt to the Church at a higher rate... Gives new meaning to the Death Tax.

So what do you think?  What are your opinions regarding a magical society in which this sort of thing can happen?

Slainte,

-Loonook.


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## Loonook (May 13, 2012)

So I was doing some additional math on possible estates… And I believe I have provided for it.  This estate would be around 4 square miles of farmland including the hamlet that it belongs in, and the income to the location.  I have used MMS: Europe, DMG I 3.x, Stronghold Builder’s Guide, and additional resources to do the basic math required.  This figures 1/3 of the land belonging directly to the noble, and 2/3 belonging to the farmers in the area, and relies on the math in our previous discussions on Famine and Copper values.

*Income:*

*Manor Wheat Yield*

Wheat Production (81269 GP) after 50% upkeep/taxes/scutage.40634.5 GP 
4466.14 Taxes and Rental for all peasants in area, given in produce.
Rent (5 skilled craftsmen (1 smith with 3 prentices, 4 skilled craftsmen with no prentices, 25% produce, living on lord’s land): 2294 GP.
_______________________
*Income Total: 47394.64*


Figuring Basics…


*25506.75 GP for upkeep of livestock/household/defense.*

*Guards/Soldiers.
*

Half of an Army Base (50 soldiers): 1200 GP/year.
Living Upkeep: 3024/year.
Equipment Upkeep (50 Soldiers):  884 GP (Saddle, Longsword, Longbow, Light Steel Shield, Dagger, Quarterstaff, Studded Leather upkeep (new set avg 1/10 yrs, 5 new sets of clothing/soldier/year, 2 new sets of peasant’s clothing/yr for staff.
Stabling Costs: 680 GP (Stablehands for 50 horse, stable upkeep basic stables).
Horse Upkeep:  750 GP (50 Light Warhorses).
__________________
Subtotal: 6538 GP/year.

*Household Costs:*


Fancy Residence for 15 (Noble, Spouse, 4 children, 2 cooks, servants, Governess/Tutors (2), Butler, 3 Servants) Upkeep:  3320 GP.
Household Upkeep:  5472 (Common Upkeep for all household servants, Good Upkeep for Noble Family).
Upkeep for employees:  1116 GP.
Noble’s Stables Upkeep (Fancy):  672 GP (Stable and Groom for Twelve Horses)
Horse Upkeep: 240 GP (2 ponies, 3 Heavy Warhorse, 6 Light Horse, 1 Heavy Horse).
Dog Upkeep: 20 GP (8 Guard Dogs)
____________
Cost Subtotal: 10840 GP

*Exterior Costs: *

Meat/Milk Livestock upkeep: (700 pigs, 400 cows, 1000 sheep, 2000 chicken): 814 GP/yr (after trade to mitigate costs).
Wall the Manor (72 stronghold spaces worth of wall, palisade): 7314.
__________________
Cost Subtotal: 8128 GP.

___________________
*Total: 25506.75 GP.*

*Yearly Income (Net) for 4 sq. mile manor: 21887.89 GP.*


*What could a Noble spend this type of money on? [Costs per year unless otherwise noted] *


*Outfit one footman to be sent to War* (1 years wages (war 1) + full equipment cost): 228.8 GP.

*Sponsor a Mercenary Company of Warriors (100 soldiers + 10 Sergeants, 5 lieutenants, 3 Captains) to the War *(Double 1 year mercenary wages, equipment and horse ‘rental’, officers paid normal rental cost):  13270.24 GP [magic users not included save for NPC class officers].

*Hire a trained Court Mage for a year (lvl 3 Wizard):* 1080 GP, spellcasting negotiable

*Hire a trained Combat Mage for a year (lvl. 3 Wizard plus 1.5 Hazard Pay, equipment ‘rental’ provided)*:  1995 GP, spellcasting negotiable.

*Hire a 3rd level Adventuring Party (4 members, wages only): *4320 GP.

*Outfit/Hire a 3rd level Adventuring Party: *15120 (PC base wealth + 1 year of wages).

*Expand Demense:* Varies, may be required to provide full or half produce as taxes for a period from his Lord.

*Sponsorship:* Payment of Upkeep costs of individual.

*Send Child to Court (with tutor): *3967 GP (provides 4 horses “rental”, Sage wages, handmaiden’s wages, Guard wages, Good living accommodations for child (as adult), Common for house staff, Poor for Soldier).

*Keep a Mistress*: 1635 (+10 Perform check (3 gp/day), Common Lodgings).

*Spies in a City:* minimum 1260 GP (Skilled Expert “Sage”, Common Lodgings).

*Hire Competent Assassin:* Varies, minimum 360 GP/lvl per week/HD of target (year’s wage per week covers all expenses, minimum 1 month).

*How to make more coin?*

Most Nobles have Investments that they make with their cash.  Sponsorship of voyages would be a great way to make cash, though it is not without its risks.  A basic income projection of 3% growth on investments for conservative investments (no risk), 6% on moderate risk (85% sure bet, lose d100 percent current bankroll) or 10% risky investment (65% sure bet, lose 2d100 percent current bankroll) are decent risk levels for most calculations.  Most services will yield their money back on a seasonal basis excluding winter (compound all interest 3/year).

If our family invests 1/3 of their money into a clear, conservative investment strategy for ten generations can produce millions of GP.  For the sake of not introducing Compound Interest and its hazards of creating an oligarchy  we will create a *Generation Block. * 

Factor in every 20 years of possession of the Manor.  For every 20 years of growth add the 1.5 of the normal Net Income of the location to the Manor’s overall value.  The actual value would be quite a bit more; however, we are figuring in taxation and losses as part of our figuring.  This figures Conservative Growth of 1/3 of the manor’s wealth… Those who invest themselves foolishly soon find “shirt-tails to shirt-tails” an apt turn of phrase.

If our current example holds and the manor has stood for 200 years, the manor has 328318.35 GP worth of “Expansion” that has been performed.  If we use the rules of Medieval Magic Society: Mythic Europe our lords could expand their arable lands in an uninhabited area by quite a bit via assarting.  The nobles could invest this currency in shipping, making for a more fanciful estate, creating a castle for protection of the realm, or help to found an actual city, allowing for more individuals to gather, more taxes, etc.  

This is, of course, a small but capable holding in an arable location, and does not take into account the additional income of the estate… The rest of the manor’s direct holdings (2/3 of its land) could be used for multiple purposes, and even for additional population.

I did not specifically include these in the Net Income statistics to allow for a representative sample of a group of peasants living in a large manor.  The overall population of this large estate would amount to a sizeable hamlet.  A lord of this sort of estate would also have the possibility of additional population centers near it; as an agricultural holding it could be just the pastoral estate of a small Aristocrat family ruling over several hamlets, thorps and villages in the general area.  It can also represent mercantile holdings and farmland… The possibilities are endless.

Feel free to comment; I would be happy to hear from you.

Slainte,

-Loonook.


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## Loonook (May 13, 2012)

*Water Water Everywhere...*

So I have been looking into one of those civic wonders... The _Decanter of Endless Water_.  How useful is a Decanter of Endless Water to our small community?

The purchase of a Decanter is a bit of an expenditure to our Noble... But it is extremely useful for the purposes of irrigation in the field, supplying fresh/clean water to his subjects, and providing for efficient firefighting.  So how do we figure out the overall water needs of our population?

Well, first let us see a year's output of a Decanter of Endless Water.  A Decanter in its Geyser form produces 300 GpM (Gallons per Minute).  This amount gives us the overall output of 432000 Gallons per Day (GpD).

This provides *1329 Gallons per Day* for every man, woman, and child in the area.  That seems like a lot per person... Let us see how much would be left over after our irrigation and possible firefighting.

_____
Grow Wheat Grow!

So we want to supply our nice little wheat some sweet, delicious water.  First I would like to know how much water would be needed to irrigate the entire 2560 acre property for wheat production.  I will put an extremely high amount of irrigation as our baseline (for 100 bushel yields!)... which requires timed release of 20 inches of water over the entirety of the property.

How many cubic feet of water?  An acre is 43 560 square feet, so our overall square footage would come to 111513600 square feet.  20" converts to 1.667 feet, and thus we have 185856000 in perfect conditions.  We will also take irrigation efficiency into account, with a loamy soil providing for 70% efficiency.


Overall water need: 265508571 Cubic Feet of water.
*Gallons per Cubic feet: 7.480
___
1986004111.08 gallons.


[*]/432000 GDP​
_____
4597 decanter days. 

Wheat takes around 120 days to grow, bringing the total to 38 Decanter Days/day.


As we can see irrigating the entire area would be impossible with a single decanter... At the least you would need 38 Decanters to irrigate these loamy canals if we do not figure in for off-site storage of water in canals during the 'off season' of wheat (where you would still need a minimum of 13).

If we have a drought condition (defined as a period of 15 or more days without any accumulating rainfall) our Decanter could assuage the issue slightly for certain areas, providing water for the crops for the period (and still coming in well within our requirements for our bushel/acre yield).  

In a location with no real rain your Noble can produce wheat yields for 342000 if only triggering the water for use of wheat during the period.  Seems expensive... But creating wheat in a drought-stricken area for 1000 individuals would cost around a generation's worth of full investment into the project by a single noble.  

Let us say that our Noble's son gains a claim in the middle of a loamy drought area.  The Noble decides to invest in his son's wealth, providing 20 years of his investments at a conservative rate to the procuring of Decanters of Endless Water.   20 years of investment (249,219.25 GP) applied as principal brings the overall loan to 93000 GP.  The son, if granted 30 year terms at 10% interest, will be paying 9793.68 GP back to the Crown along with all other taxes, fees, and scutage.  This brings his own overall available expenses to 12093.32.  

If he is making similar payments on the building of a manor similar to his father's own home would be in deep debt for his lifestyle... However, it is quite possible that the son could make additional investments or trades during his time in the household.  If he were to reduce his own household upkeep expenses to that of a more provincial lord (Common upkeep for the family, Poor upkeep for household servants, Basic Stables) he could reduce his overall yearly costs by 8362, allowing him to pay for his Basic Household and pay for a better household with a generational mortgage over a 20 year span if he can pay 1/2 of the overall cost up front.  If the family has been invested for generations of calculable growth they would be able to put the money up front for this half, and would probably expect the produce of the fields for the period... There is a reason why it is good to be the High Lord .

These costs are, of course, lowered significantly if the new Lord has a way to store his own water; however, this oasis will be difficult enough as-is to keep under wraps without support from other lords.  Such a large stake of claim would probably occur not with a single lord, but ten or more lordlings being sent to the region to establish a true holding.  Such a holding could be quite useful to a King, as it provides an excellent stable source of income through the taxation/loan, expansion into a new region, and a reliable place to billet troops to go out to the wastelands.

Of course these numbers just figure the requirement for crops... Each ten-hold community could be supplied with water from a single decanter with 350+ gallons/person/day.
_______________________

Now we know how much water can be generated for crops, but what if this small holding used _Control Weather_ instead?  The spell could cover 2.25 holdings of this type, and we can assume a minimum of 20 castings... Let us also provide Plant Growth to the location (12 castings should do it).  

To have a Druid available to cast the spells for one year would run 4680 GP just for him to stick around.  The actual cost of the spells for a 13th level Druid comes to 18200 GP for the Control Weather effects per 2.25 holdings (80888.88 GP) and 50 overall castings of Plant Growth (19500 GP)... Overall costs of 105068.88 GP.  Overall it is cheaper after two generations to take the loan... The rich get richer because they spend their money intelligently.

______________________

Now, let us figure that a ten-hold area has 3000 inhabitants.  A single Decanter of Endless Water can supply the needs of the populace above current water usage levels (144 gallons/person/day)... But if we figure water loss to the canals as we have discussed previously we would approach 100 gallons/person/day, still within the realm of possibility.  All waste water will flow through the environment, and over hundreds of years may actually cause the location to become, if not arable, more hospitable to life.
___________________________

So what about fires?  A Decanter of Endless Water produces (in geyser mode) 300 gallons/minute of use.  This is about as much as a residential fire department's hose... And would serve just as well if the geyser can be mounted and locked to a cart, or the populace uses Aid Another to control the spray and put out a blaze.
_______________________________________________

Overall, the Decanter is a highly useful and world-changing tool.  It provides clean, potable water that can terraform a wasteland if given enough time.  This also points out the further gap of nobility vs. the lower castes... Our Smith, for example, makes about the same overall wealth, could team up with other smiths and create such a location investing their entire net worth... But they do not have the strength of coin to support their new society without the support of merchants and nobles.  

It is interesting to see the possibilities that a useful (usually) non-combat item can have for a society.  If you would like me to analyze anything specific please feel free to post here and I'll be happy to look it over for you.

Slainte,

-Loonook.


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## Loonook (May 14, 2012)

*We were meant for the stage...*

_*The crowd goes into the Great Theater for a true tale... And what a tale to be told.  It is the last night of the Kingsmoot, and the Great Shah and our High King have spent years preparing for their meeting, and their sponsored troupes are prepared.  The sounds of rumbling drums, sweet horns, and plucked strings fill the air... And so it begins.​*_

Sadly the stage seems to be a place ignored by many in roleplaying games.  Bards exist, and roam around the world telling tales... But who goes to a show?

The stage was an important draw away from the grind of metropolitan life, and a world filled with magic could do well by entertaining the masses.  Bread and circuses help to appease the populace, and make their lives better.

So I have been thinking of how to describe a grand theater, one that could hold any performance you may desire beyond a full war reenactment, including aerial combats, grand combats, etc.  

I started with a 100' diameter space with 60' in height.  The space contains cubic feet... Let us round it up to a basic 472000 cubic feet.  Smaller than most football fields, but has an enormous footprint in a city.

The overall 'theater space' would be 117809... Let us round it up to 118000 feet.  This gives us an overall space for theater-goers, stairways, and other niceties of  354000 cubic feet.  If we use Stronghold Spaces as we have this gives us 44.25 spaces... As we've been rounding up let us round this to 45 overall spaces.

An Auditorium or Theater space contains 30 individuals comfortably.  That puts our minimum capacity at 1350.  The Auditorium seating provided in the SBG places 10 rows in their spaces... Let us expand that to 15, providing 45 individuals in our 'cheap seats' (numbering half the space), common seats at the normal size, and 5 luxury boxes that seat half the number.

Overall Capacity: 1575.  You may argue for more spaces but this allows us to put a basic number on a very nice location.  The overall cost (50,000 for Luxury Boxes, 80000 for our Basic seats, add 1.5 overall for all spaces) makes the overall cost come to 195000 GP. 

Maintenance of the theater costs 19500 GP/year per our 10% rule of thumb, and requires 1 attendant per 50 people for crowd control (WAG, but sounds about right), and an company of actors.

19500 maintenance
1152 wages for 32 Attendants
5760 wages for 40 performers (+7 to Perform/12 GP/mo/person).
Costuming (30 sets of Costumes of various types, 10% upkeep): 180 GP.
_____
26592 GP/year.

Now how much of an offset exists for our Players?  Well, that depends.  In a metropolis of 50,000, the seats would be filled if people went to see a play once/month.  If charged a silver per person on average, the theater would make 57847.50 GP per year.

I doubt that a man would be willing to spend a day's wage for entertainment.  But I could see them spending around as much as we would spend for a ticket., right? 

Our unskilled day laborer makes one silver piece per day.  As we have figured out in our previous discussion a silver piece is worth around 8 dollars.  The average movie ticket runs around 7.93 as of February 2012.  Of course that is a motion picture that makes millions of dollars, and the seats are never 'full' capacity... 

The classical cost for 'cheap seats' was a copper, and range from there based on the upkeep chart, increasing costs based on upkeeps.

To take into account theaters that will fluctuate in capacity we will charge 2 CP for our common seats, 1cp for the cheap seats... the luxury 'boxes' run at 5 SP.  58.5 GP/day for a full house.  If we figure half capacity except on 'great' nights, 29.25GP/day.

Now this amount of money means that the theater is operating in the red most of its season... So how does it make money?  Well... Most theaters didn't.  They were sponsored by local nobles, merchants, etc. looking to curry favor.  Remember the Sponsorship we discussed earlier?  A sponsor of this theater may put up 1000 GP/year for the right to help bolster the arts, and get a nice little wooden statue for their troubles... And a bit of a hand with the locals.

Bread and Circuses.

Now, onto the really interesting part... Magic Performances!

How much does it cost to create a magic performance?  Well, it can varies on what you wish to do... I have provided a few basic costs for some 'stage magicians'.

Apprentice Stage Magician (Stage Hack): Sorcerer 1.  30 GP/month, spells worth 70 gp/day.  
What can he do?

*0th: 6/day (knows all).*


Ghost Sound
Light
Open/Close
Mage Hand
Prestidigitation

*1st Level (Knows 2). 4/day*


Mount
Unseen Servant
Floating Disc
Feather Fall
Disguise Self
Silent Image

I did not put a Wizard here as a Sorcerer really does help the stage a bit more.  I also only put spells with a decent duration, and that could be useful.  A normal 'stage hack' will have Silent Image and Disguise Self for the utility of each (but the stage must realize he can only top out at 40 minutes of Disguise so plays that require more time are outside his purview).

A Stage Hack could pull off a military play (if the rest of the cast serves as extras, and they don't need to add all of the sounds), and even mildly 'magical' plays like the Tempest.  If they are able to be within 10' of the actor being injured they can 'squib' the actor, making them appear to bleed through Prestidigitation, which could be accomplished by having line of sight to the target through knowing their location.  

Due to the cost of anything beyond their basic castings a Stage Hack is usually only used for 'top line' shows.  There is still a need for Experts in Disguise, costume/tailoring, etc.  A Mage's Guild may turn a talented but limited Sorcerer over to a theater to learn a trade, and give his services 'gratis'.  

Most Hacks do the gig for the wine, women, and song supplied, and are usually given a great lifestyle (Common Upkeep) in lieu of his actual pay.  He's not going to make big money through his skills without the company, and a Common lifestyle with a good amount of cash in pocket (paid 10x a laborer's price with upkeep paid for) is enough to pay to keep him in beauties of the commons for the rest of his life.

Master Stage Magician (Master Technician): Sorcerer 6. 180 GP/month, 430 Gp/day spells. 

What can he do?

*0: 6 castings*

All Stage Spells.​

*1st: 4 spells known, 6/day*

Mount
[*]Unseen Servant
[*]Floating Disc
[*]Feather Fall
[*]Disguise Self
[*]Silent Image​

*2nd: 2 spells known, 5/day*


Darkness
[*]Invisibility
[*]Gust of Wind
[*]Alter Self
[*]Mirror Image​

*3rd: 1 spell known, 3/day*


Major Image.​

The Master Technician is highly skilled, and can do a lot.  The Technician can make a large battle appear in the middle of the theater with Major Image, and with appropriate cues make giants and dragons without too much trouble... But they are trapped in a small shape on the ground.  With proper blocking the Technician can make basic weather effects, and turn his actors into other races.  A Technician can make a three act play with characters who can swashbuckle in the skies, weather effects, creepy lights, and masterful scenery.  

The Master Technician may have a few Hacks under his direction for 'filler' spots, and sustain the scene. With Ghost Sounds, prestidigitation, and multiple spells in effect the Technician makes for a truly 'special effects' driven set.  They also probably possess a Metamagic Rod or two, 

The Master Technician only does Major Shows, or when a smaller show needs a single spell to be pulled off during the day.  Master Technicians walk in a strange place in society; they are not the fierce spellcasters of the day, but they may not be considered as talented as the great Actor of their day.  Master Technicians are usually 'bequeathed' to the Theater by noble households directly, as their overall upkeep would wreck the books for the Theater.

________________

A Royal Theater Troupe has a single Master and 2d4 Hacks.  The Court Wizard may be called in for events like our Grand Spectacle... And that's where it can get fun.

In lieu of taxes some spellcasters will take to the Stage.  A Guild may send their Masters to the theater for payment of debts to the Crown. Mages who have fallen on hard times or need to repay debts may spend a week at the Theater, and these events (or Spectacles) are where the Theater makes its real money.  Prices for a Spectacle may run up to ten times their normal amount, and Luxury seats upwards of a hundred times.  These Spectacles, which can serve as shows of power, duels, or just simple displays of the Art, are held several times a year and are social events for the commoner and King.

A talented Wizard or Sorcerer of high level can use Hallucinatory Terrain and Mirage Arcana over most of the theater to actually make the scene.  Polymorphed actors play drakes in amazing action scenes that last for ten to fifteen minutes above the crowd.  Illusionary weather effects, (controlled) hurricane winds, and sights that can astound the mind.  If a sanctioned Duel occurs two spellcasters may take to the field in non-lethal combat in an enclosed space, summoning creatures of power, calling up spirits to combat, and doing the same effects as any other Spectacle... And the crowd LOVES it.
_______

In total, the world of the Theater may not pay, but it provides for a great life for those compelled to the work.  A 1st level Actor Expert makes four times the median wage, and with the time between plays and seasons they can practice other crafts.  The stage also provides useful skills for adventuring, as knowledge of stagecraft, performance, spells, diplomacy, and other skills can provide for a very talented individual.

Slainte,

-Loonook.


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## Loonook (May 14, 2012)

*A Magician's Academy: The Threefold Entrance, and Spending Lots of Money*

So I have been doing this project on how much it costs to build a really great Mage's Academy.  The first room that I wanted to get down was that of the Gatehouse, or Foyer, of the Academy.  I thought about all sorts of systems of protections available... And settled on a nice little series of protections, traps, and niceties for the Academy.

First, the door.  We want something strong and protective to prevent thieves with more guile than sense from entering.  

The Academy of Mages has a beautifully appointed series of rooms setup as a Guildhall in most metropolises around its range of influence.  The Magehalls are usually fully staffed, and visiting dignitaries are kept in opulence in the area.  These Fancy Residences contain two Mage's Laboratories and a moderately sized Library and study areas for mages to come and keep up on their learning.  Each of these halls are given upkeep by mages in the city... But are not actually the site of the Great Academy.  

In each Magehall stands a beautiful green-space where many mages go to sit, read, meditate, and have a bit of time.  Those selected to be part of the Great Order know the secret of the green-space... there is a single tree in the green-space hidden among all others, that is a magegrown tree.  The species is unique, though it appears as yew.  If one places a drop of blood and a special coin is touched to the crotch of the tree's main branches the tree is triggered like a _Tree of Greater Jaunting_ (Treat as a Tree Stride, but with unlimited range on the plane of existence).  

The spell requires knowledge of the location and name of the current 'home tree'... A mage may use the old location, but will not find the Academy's Entrance there.  They may find nothing but the tree, a series of traps, or a building similar to the Foyer in appointment that serves as an _instant fortress _ with a single Gatekeeper within... The Gatekeeper is a suicide hired by the Order to trigger their trap, collapsing the fortress and triggering the alarm that calls the Fortress back to the Room of Delights within the Order's Academy.

When one finds the Foyer, they are amazed by the opulence of the structure.

The true Foyer is a beautifully appointed location kept by the True Gatekeeper.  The Gatekeeper is True Neutral, doesn't seem to sleep, and no one knows exactly who, or what, he is beyond this.  The great lamps and beautifully bonsai'd trees around the area provide a nice ambiance.  The room is a Teleporting Gatehouse with the following enchantments:

Hall of Truth 
Hall of Speech 
Hall of Friendship 
Braziers of Law/Chaos/Evil/Good/Magic/Undead 
Oaken Guardians (4) 
Inscribed Devil/Angel’s Trap (All Alignments).

Total Cost: 315000 GP.

Expensive right?  Well...

The Gatekeeper can speak to anyone who enters, _charm_ most low level threats who enter, know if lying, confirm alignment, magic items on person, life status, and outsiders are frozen in the foyer's entrance (10*10 space).  The Gatekeeper is also granted a _Ring of Sending_ as part of his job, so that he may report current location and issues with a full round action.  

He also has 4 Treants to protect him if need be, but the Sending spell will probably be calling the Archmagus of the Order to the location first... If the Gatekeeper finds the guest to be appropriate he triggers the Teleportation Circle, sending through to the only location into which an individual may Teleport into the Order's Location.

*Now how does the group afford it?*

My personal setting includes around 40 Metropolises around the world, and of course larger cities that can contain wizards.  For the Metropolises alone, not including the highest tier, contain the following amount of ONLY wizards in daily spells cast:


320 8th level  (129600 GP)
640 4th level  (14400 GP)
1280 2nd level  (3200 GP)
2560 1st level  (1000 GP)
__________________
148200 GP/day production.

If a tithe is made to the Arcane Order by half of these individuals of 10%, the Order has 2704650 GP per year to spend as an organization.  

If the Order has existed for 100 years, investing 1/3 of their money into conservative investments, and creating a 'death tax' of 25% of all equipment upon death every 20 years invested back into the pool (using Generation Blocks)...

Order's Investment: 901550 GP
9984000 'death tax' over 100 years invested back: 99840 GP
compound 20 years interest of total principal/year
____________
29,352,896.11

*5 Generations

____________

146,764,480.55 GP.

The Mage's Order, as an organization of tens of thousands of individuals, is a Sovereign State.  Its individuals have very strong earning power, but they die quickly.  The Order can influence policies, but their real power is in the accrual of items over the years.  It explains why many 'ageless' wizards have so many assets... They plan for the long term, and handle things well .

The cost is infinitesimal to the Order for investment purposes, and the Upkeep, while 1% of their overall cost for the Foyer, is still acceptable as it provides for a very nice protection to the Organization.  

40 Luxury Apartment/Mage Lab complexes plus the Trees of Jaunting in the Metropolises? 21,049,600 overall for building (without including magical assistance...)  A bit over 15% of the overall investments of the last hundred years, and the upkeep draws quite a bit of the overall upkeep for the Order... But the location pays dividends.  It serves as a gathering point for magicians to train, scribe, create, and study.  It also has an extensive Arcane Library, with a Master Library of Arcane Tomes.  

Nobles may pay for opulent digs to be provided for their mistresses, visiting dignitaries, and other important guests within the Hall, providing additional income.  The rooms are of a quality to support an Extravagant Lifestyle, and rental of the property alone provides the Order 2880000 GP, covering expenses of upkeep and staff, and allowing for excellent security (and payments to local Guilds to prevent rogues from getting too lippy).  That is not including rental of the library by non-residents on Arcane topics and the 'small library' for residential use.  


Upkeep: 2104960
Rental:   2880000
_____
775040 GP 


Rogue's 'take' yearly  432000
______
343040 GP  


Staff Upkeep  2916
______
340124 GP 'profit'.

Not a bad set of digs, ehh?  

Now what could the local house do with this money? Again 1/3 back into investments... 

226749.33 GP 'spending money'.


Amazing Locks (15) - 2250
Security Force (yearly, 2 lvl. 5 Warriors, 10 lvl 3 Warriors): 2880
Physician (Adept lvl. 3): 1080
Season Box Rental at Royal Theater (including Spectacles): 5475
Decanter of Endless Water (upkeep): 900
Improved Arcane Lock (3 fold entrance, for all staff): 1450
____
212714.33 GP.

So much cash... I honestly cannot think of anything else that is fully 'necessary' as the Order would have taxes covered through Spectacles and the like, and they could afford to purchase multiple items of power.  In theory the cash for two years could be spent just to make all of the rooms perfectly Climate Controlled... 

But the goodwill of the populace could also be spent on various machinations throughout the metropolis and the World at large.  212714 GP is nothing to sneeze at.  The Guild can sponsor 5900 laborers with this money, outfit 50 guardsmen with +1 equipment (studded leather, longswords, and shields) (with cash to spare), hire 20 adventuring companies (lvl 5) for a year... or sponsor voyages to exotic locales. 

____

How much does it cost to sponsor a voyage?  Let us look at Columbus's Voyage as our starting point. 

The three ships (Nina, Pinta, Santa Maria) account as a Carrack (Great Ship) and 2 Caravel.  Per D&D guidelines ship costs alone come to 80,000 GP.  If we place full complements on our Caravel and half on the Great Ship we have 100 crew.  Giving everyone 'Poor' Rations puts us at 12000 GP for one year.  

Now our Crew... 83 crew, 8 Sergeants, 5 Lieutenants, and 3 Ship's Captains.  This matches a Human Company just about right.  If our Crew are paid by soldier wages (6 GP/mo) our 8 Sergeants are paid crew/lvl (18 GP/mo), our 5 Lieutenants are PCs (150 GP/mo) and 3 Captains are PCs (210 GP/mo).

Ships


2 Caravel: 20000
1 Greatship: 60000
Ship Upkeep (yearly): 8000
_____
88000

Sailors:


Rations (upkeep/year): 12000
Crew Yearly: 5976
Sergeants Yearly: 1728 
Lieutenants Yearly: 9000 
3 Captains Yearly: 7560
_____
36264

__________

Cost of Year-Long Voyage with Ship's Purchase: 124264 GP
Cost of Maintenance/Yr: 44264

Columbus's Voyage took 5 weeks.  Our ships could circumnavigate an Earth-sized world in 3-6 years if given room to run and sea to sail.  Of course the ship would also have the ability to take along spices and other trade items to slowly become self-sufficient upon repaying the initial investment in ships.  

Well, that was a long post... Soon we'll go into the costs of the wonders of the Mage's Academy/Citadel.

Slainte,

-Loonook.


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## haakon1 (May 15, 2012)

Loonook said:


> So I was doing some additional math on possible estates…




This is interesting.

In my campaign (IMC), three characters have gone into "homesteading" to some extent.

One character took over the village from The Standing Stones as an ecclessiastic fief.  That is, it's owned by the Church of St. Cuthbert, but it's run by him.  It's an odd place -- very isolated, in the Dim Forest, with the only people nearby being a family that runs a river ferry crossing, a dwarven stead in the mountains, and some wild elves in the Dim Forest itself.  All of those are friendly -- the dwarves depend on the village for food and charcoal for their smithing, and the ferry depends on the village and the dwarves (plus subsistence forest agriculture of their own).   Technically, the ferry should be "owned" by the lord of the manor, too.

What's extra odd -- the people here were animals, transformed into humans and halflings by the old druidic stones here.  So I ruled they were Commoner 1 with no skills, and the PC's decided to stay and help them learn some skills.  Plus, they've sent war refugees to settle here and teach the locals more.  The only two leveled folks here are a Fighter 4 (retired PC, formerly a sergeant in a manorial militia) as the Captain, and a Rogue who's a turned enemy (and was once a cat!).

Also, it's isolated -- many days from the nearest Bisselite city, with the edges of the Dim Forest claimed by a few countries (though none of them hostile).

How would you do the economics for that?  I'm going for "it's just about break even, but nobody starves".

The other two holdings are at the Keep on the Borderlands.  One PC was made Baronet, the other (a monk) was given the rights and land to build a monestary to Rao next to it -- and he wants it to be a brewery monestary, and has the skills to do it.

As you might guess, it's also isolated and underpopulated, and they've also moved in some war refugees (paying for supplies, wagons, tools, seed corn, livestock, etc. to resettle them).

The Keep is a real castle, with the outer bailey being a walled village.  It's directly on the "North Road", which goes from Thornward (capital of Bissel) along the bottom of the Yatil Mountain foothills to the land of Highfolk.  It's the Borderlands because the borders of Veluna and Furyondy (both friendly) come close here, and aren't very well defined or populated, plus it wards against trouble from the mountains.

The Baronetcy also owns a stone bridge over a gorge, which carries the North Road out of Bissel.   There are no settlements besides the Keep.  Unless you count the nearby Caves of Chaos, which are now run by a goblin king the PC's made a deal with.  (They killed off the other forces there and pay him 1 cow a week to keep control of the place and not attack the Bisselites or traffic on the road.)

The economics of the keep includes farming (particularly cattle), hunting for furs and leather, and supplying merchants on the North Road.  There's a warehouse and hostelry for the Merchant's Guild, and a pub/inn for the general public.  The population is very small -- probably too small to pay for the upkeep.

Any ideas on any of these situations would be of interest to me.


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## Loonook (May 15, 2012)

haakon1 said:


> This is interesting.
> 
> In my campaign (IMC), three characters have gone into "homesteading" to some extent.
> 
> ...




Personally I would need to know the following to be able to make any real headway:

On your first example: 


What is the number/percentage of produce the Church is requiring for the right of fiefdom over the tithe? 
What taxes are your characters levying?
How many Adult Commoners do you have?
Does the community Produce anything that can be traded?
Cattle are a risky business in a fantasy medieval setting, unless you're using them for multiple purposes.  Do you have tanners/cheesemakers/dairyfolk/butchers/bakers?
What kind of lifestyle are these people to live in? 
I do not know the module... But the fact that this place is isolated so far is another one of those issues I have with D&D's ideology regarding how cities work.  
How many buildings exist?  A good rule of thumb is that an acre of land can host around 330 people in relative comfort... This is based on the entire Acre being filled with Basic Residential clusters (each room sleeps 2 individuals, there are privies, kitchens, and main dining halls for each group).  If separated into individual homes it is around the same amount.
Upkeep: The basic Upkeep of each Residential square is 6 GP/month, and the average laborer's Meager upkeep is 2 GP/month. For a lord to feed, bathe, and house these people will run upwards of 8700 (8712 GP) year... An awful lot for charity.
Labor/Crafting: You're so far describing a closed economy, with no monetary circulation, unskilled laborers who have nowhere to travel to make their money, and having to actually do most of their work in trade.  And Survival checks just to feed the group is going to be quite high... 
Primary Trade: Your people CAN trade with the Dwarves for charcoal, but the Dwarves may actually hire some of your townsfolk to work in their mines and smithies as hands... Dwarves are slow to reproduce, and if they are Trained (if not skilled) they can still attempt Aid checks to assist smiths.  If your Commoners still have animal traits they could also serve a purpose for the Dwarves in scenting, tracking, and hunting, making themselves a nice little income through feeding the Dwarves that could barter for handcrafts preventing the need for Smiths of their own (essentially converting their Survival into a Craft skill).
Secondary Trade: Do these folk have contact with your ferrymen?  If so they could have an opportunity to trade with those who would come up river.  Skills in carpentry, Survival crafts (herbalism, food) etc. could provide a hearty secondary income for your order.

Questions for you mostly, but the big bullets:  Population, Skilled vs. Unskilled Labor, desired Upkeep range, desired Income.  

I'll look over the second once I get info on the first .

Slainte,

-Loonook.


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## Azgulor (May 15, 2012)

Wow!  This'll take some time for me to go through & digest, but very interesting stuff!


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## Loonook (May 15, 2012)

*A Magician's Academy: The Great Library of the Order*

Now... Let us recap.  

As of right now our Order Creator needs to invest a lot of cash... After the creation of the shell game that is the Foyer of the Unseen (and its associated groups of false Guildhalls) we must work on the Academy itself.  

But what is an Academy without a Library?  After the costs above we have 125,714,880.55 to spend on the Academy itself.  

First, an entrance.  The Great Library requires the auspice of an Order Mage of 9th level or higher to enter.  From the Foyer the individual may Jaunt to the Atrium of the Library.

The Library is the heart of the Academy, and it is large.  Bigger.  No... Bigger.  There ya go.  The Library is built deep into a mountain running thick with metallic ore; great Dwarven masons helped to build the Library, and the current Elders who live above are the only individuals in the community who know of its existence. The location also corresponds to a similar mountainous region in the Ethereal, where once per decade (as is custom) the Order brings several Dwarven talents to gather various materials only found in the Near Ethereal. If a Dwarf or other team were to attempt to dig the Librarians of earlier years have set up an array of defenses around the complex to baffle anyone who is tempted to enter.

The Library has two concentric rings around the Atrium, with beautiful stonework walkways leading between each of the rings as a form of Skywalk.  Two sets of Wells of Flying lead up and down the shaft of the Atrium, and a Well of Falling that is protected by a series of traps and ingenious locks blocks passage to the Depths, and the Entrance to the Academy proper. 

The exterior ring around the Atrium consists of 25 separate Mage's Laboratories, five on each level and five high, that have been melded together as the workshops of higher level members of the Order. The mages of the Order who work here invested a great deal of cash in comforts; each square of the Labs is protected by Ethereal Solids.  The books of the Laboratories are usually two Extended Book Lots, providing information on Arcana and Theology/Philosophy.  If the Master Texts are needed they Order member need only go to the Grand Library.

*Cost: *


Wizard Research Labs (25, Stone cost as wood due to Location/Magic Assistance/Skilled Labor): 422,500.
Ethereal Solid (all spaces, 125*12000, 10% discount due to prime location in Near Ethereal): 1,350,000
_____
1,772,500 GP.
60500 GP Upkeep (see below)

Due to the materials of the Ethereal Solid actually being coplanar and requiring no real maintenance (they 'exist' on the other side) the total upkeep of the location is 42,500 GP/yr plus servants costs (18000) plus book maintenance (coming to 160,500 GP/yr).

*How is it paid for?*

With the price of admission.  These enormous carrels are used by master magi, and their overall yearly upkeep (6420/unit) is easily handled through a few weeks of spellcasting in service to another Guild or Kingdom, or sale of some of their magic item researches.  

*Defenses*

The place cannot be reached through the Ethereal save by members of the Order who know how to pull it off, and the Atrium has its own defenses (to be listed).  The place is protected from most teleportation by its hidden coordinates (the overall space is quite small), and the Ethereal Solid enhancement. There are also at least 2d4+4 'attendant' Mages in the Lab at any given time.  Most will have mental _Alarm_ made permanent on their research lab (permanent runs 2950 GP after cost), and the triggering of the Atrium's defenses can be heard by even the most deaf old Mage in his study.

*The Library*

The Library is the greatest collection of knowledge in the known world. As the Labs serve as their surroundings and the Atrium lies in their center they are quite well protected; the Order provides no further enchantments save for immunity from elements (10,000 GP per Library).  Altogether there are 50 Luxury Library spaces, containing fifty Master Lots covering a deep breadth of Knowledge.  This provides an overview for every Knowledge Check, and specific Knowledge of 41 Regions as covered under Knowledge (Local) at a +6 benefit.

Fancy Library (50): 600,000
Book Lots (50): 1,000,000
2 Fancy Residential Blocks: 134528.
Elemental Protection (100 Lots, No Maintenance): 1,000,000
_____
Cost: 2,600,000 GP. Upkeep: 168,928 (10% maintenance + 50 Librarian's yearly wages+ Head Librarian's Wages).

The Order LOVES its books, and it shows.  The Upkeep is assisted by the cost to use the Library and its features. Members who wish to gain access may pay 20 GP/day or be charged 600 GP/year for the services the Library provides... But they must be able to get to the Library itself.

The Head Librarian is a skilled Expert 12, who is also well-trained in Spellcraft and Use Magic Device.  Tread lightly and don't damage the books... There are rumors of what he has come to possess through his other extensive knowledge: fleecing idiot mages who play cards in his quarters.  

The Librarians pay for their own Upkeep, as many take advantage of the Order's tutelage to gain knowledge in skills that other Experts may not acquire, and the Order's excellent health and dental package.  They live in a luxury unfound in most of their former lives as literate youth in downtrodden cities; each also is granted the ability to read magic and speak in tongues as part of their training to better facilitate their skills.  These enchantments are usually placed in amulets passed down by Librarians to their children and grandchildren, as the Librarians only seem to breed with each other or members of the Order.

Even in the Order nerds find it hard to get dates.

The Atrium... Well, I have written my fill for just now, but the Atrium will be detailed in the next installment .

Slainte,

-Loonook.


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## Gilladian (May 16, 2012)

Hey Loonock - can't give you XP right now - but I'm really enjoying your discussion of D&D economics!


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## Loonook (May 17, 2012)

*The Atrium and How to Protect a Bank.*

Now you wish to enter the Academy... Well, the only one in is out they say... And thus you may leave via the Atrium.


Glassteel Atrium (treat as Luxury Courtyard * 4, Glassteel cost as Adamantine): 600,000.
Plane-Shifting, Teleporting (*4): 300,000
Chamber of Comfort (*4): 30,000.
10 locks (DC: 40) into the Academy Entrance: 1500 GP.
3 Improved Arcane Locks: 1450.

____
932,950 GP.

The place is beautiful, and it shows.  The Head Librarian knows a fantastic location to drop the Atrium into in case of danger, and will send it there through Shifting and Teleporting to the Coordinates as needed.  His other option is a direct Teleportation to a place known as the Boneyard... Which we will cover later .

It's a brutal little place, but if you have the time to cast five knocks, break the Arcane Locks, and get into the locale... Congratulations!  You have gained entrance...

To the Underchamber.  The Head Librarian will request your Key, and confirmation of any attendants.  The Head Librarian has three keys specific to this location; if the locks are attempted to pick they trigger a version of the Disjunction Pulse trap followed by a Destruction Trap focused on the location.  

This room is a weak little series of traps and enforcements .  I do not currently have my calculations for the values here, so this area will be filled in a bit later.


The location is difficult to break into, Teleports of its own will, shifts, and is dangerous.  

______________

Now, onto a question I received: How to protect a Bank.  

Well... The real question is how do you want to run your Bank.  How much do you wish to spend on a Bank location, and how much do you wish to protect the location.  The Order and Kingdoms can afford some great protections... And I will be posting some ideas on Bank Security over at my Blog.

Slainte,

-Loonook.


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## Treebore (May 17, 2012)

Just letting you know I am following this too, but please don't switch it to a blog, I hate popping between different websites with my slow connection. At the very least post it to both locations please.


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## Loonook (May 18, 2012)

So along with my random weather generator I have created a handy Market Price Generator xls for any trading based group or game.  In essence this chart provides a nice handy spreadsheet to randomly generate current market prices in a city.  It is pretty easy to use; just go the location marked 'Sausage Factory', input the location's Maximum GP, and let the system do the walking.  I've run a few hundred iterations and, despite the occasional wonky presentation under the hooks and random chance location it seems to generate a nicely self-identifying shift in market values.  


Currently I have made market values vary pretty wildly; however, if you have basic EXCEL knowledge just change the appropriate numbers and you will be good to go!  This chart allows you to know the current sales price of an item (rather than just 'half value') and purchase price of equipment!  It does have a tendency to swing above 100%, but this is intentional.

Simulpost to my blog!

Slainte,

-Loonook.


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## haakon1 (May 18, 2012)

*The village of Ossington*

Ossington is in the Dim Forest, 3 days from a barge crossing on the Realstream, and 6 more days to the market town of Pellak.  The inhabitants were almost all faux humans and faux halflings (one local human survived), but new refugees are also moving there.

Answering Loonook's questions:

1) How much does the Church of St. Cuthbert want their cleric (Banastran) who holds the new fief to pay them as a share?  Nothing for the first few years, as the place is set up.  It's a new holding for them, and may not survive.  The country that claims it, Bissel, feels the same way -- it's more important to reinvest any surplus into growing resources there, rather than extracting value now.

2) What taxes is Banastran levying on Ossington?  None yet.  But the villagers do have to keep up the church and pay for the militia, the mayor, and the militia captain.

3) How many Adult Commoners?  Total population is as follows.

70 villagers: 1 human , 52 faux humans, 17 faux Halflings 
- Mayor: Toad (m faux halfling (toad) Aristocrat 1)

- Militia Captain: Tully (f faux human (cat))

- Warriors (9): Tanasha Lu (f faux human (fox) War3), Badger (m faux human (badger) War 2), 5 faux human (dogs) War1, 2 m faux halfing (weasels) War 1

- Experts (11): Willard (m faux human (goat) Exp2 weaver), Pease (m faux human (goose) Exp1 miller/granger/farmer), Eli (m faux human (ferret) Exp1 tanner/scout), Shepherd (f faux human (dog) Exp1 artist/singer), Kenneth (m faux human (dog) Exp1 hunter/gatherer), Grahame (m faux human (dog) Exp1 hunter/gatherer), Ratty (m faux human (rat) Exp1 farmer), Mole (m faux halfling (mole) Exp1 farmer), , Evans (m faux halfling (mouse) Exp1 secretary), Holly (f faux halfling (owl) Exp1 farmer).

- Commoners (49): Old Tarbee Lu (m human Com1 farmer)
- 37 faux humans: Liese (f faux human (rabbit) Com1 maid), Raflees (f faux human (racoon) Com1 butler), Alesia (f faux human (copperhead snake) Com1 brewer), 11 faux human (rabbits) Com1 gardeners/farmers, 9 faux human (sheep) Com1 farmers, 8 faux human (pig) hunter/gatherer/farmers, 4 faux human (oppossum) lumberjacks, 2 faux human (pig) charcoalers.
- 11 faux halflings: 5 faux halfling (mice) Com1 farmers, 4 faux halfling (squirrels) Com1 farmers/woodsmen, 2 faux halfling (sparrows) Com1 bakers/storekeepers

In addition, Banastran is resettling 19 more regular folks here:

- New militia commander: Porth (returned human male Fighter 4)

- Farmers (13):  Zacharias (former village reeve, Expert at farming and organizing a village).  9 human farmers who used to farm strips/small fields (poorer farmers).  1 halfling farmer of similar former means.  1 human swineherd.  1 human beekeepers (Expert)

- Artisans (2): Furniture maker.  Paper Maker.  Both human experts.

- Warriors (3): Colin (Veteran porter/guard).  Wounded warrior with a limp.  Wounded warrior missing an arm.

- In addition, the PC's set up 3 traders (who had lost all they owned in the war, to the north) to open up trade between Pellak, Ossington, and the dwarvish settlement.  Valert the Caravaneer (expert). 2 halfling peddlers.

Banastran also bought supplies for the refugees moving to Ossington, to wit:

Banastran’s new reeve, Zacharias, calculates that for 18 new workers, he needs 9 wagons (315 gp) with 4 oxen (60 gp) and 14 mules (112 gp). It’s a 21-day trip, so 75.6 gp for food and wagon repairs on the way, calculated at 1 sp per worker per day, and 1 sp per beast of burden per day.  On arrival, he’ll need 250 gp for tools, seed corn, a dozen pigs, and beekeeping supplies to get the place humming, and 378 gp for 7 months of supplies to tide everyone over for the fall, winter, and until April, when the winter wheat will be ready. (18x30 x7 = 378 gp.)

The veteran porter, Colin, says he’d like a suit of studded leather armor, a light crossbow, longsword, and basic camping gear for himself and the two wounded veterans (80 gp each), plus 30 spears for the other refugees to have two each, for very basic defense.  (Military Costs: 110 gp.  With Resettlement Costs, it adds up to 1330.6 gp.)

4) Does the community produce anything that can be traded?

At first, they are all concentrating on survival -- getting the first year's crops in, and staying alive until then.  Once they get everyone settled and sure on food, I see exportable products as:

-- To the dwarvish mining/weaponsmithing colony in the Barrier Peaks:
- Grain and pork (traditional exports)
- Charcoal (traditional export)
- Mead (one of the refugees is a beekeeper and they trained a brewer)
- Weaved linen (they trained a weaver and can grow flax)
- Leather from forest animals
- Lumber
- Furniture (one of the refugees is a furniture maker)

-- To the city of Pellak, home base of the Knights of the Watch
- Leather
- Artwork (one of the Experts is naturally talented as an artist)
- Paper (one of the refugees is a papermaker)

5) What kind of lifestyle are these people to live in?

They will all start out very poor.  The faux humans are reviving a village where the real people who knew how to run it were all killed.  The refugees are penniless except for what the PC's bought for them, but many are skilled.

The village will no doubt be in danger from time to time, but the nearest folks - grugach elves and the dwarf settlement -- are inclined to be friendly.

Also, about 2/3 of the faux humans/halflings have converted to the worship of St. Cuthbert (LG in my campaign), so the village will tend in that direction (though it started out true neutral, with some evil)

6) What buildings exist?

There are 17 buildings in Ossington
- Log church to St. Cuthbert, built by the PC's and the villagers

- The Grange.  Large stone barn, grain storage, and mill.

- The Manor House.  The only two-story house in the village, stone 1st story, half-timber upper story.

- House built of wood.

- 13 cottages of half-timber with thatch roofs.

Outside town is an outlying farm house, and an ancient, untended "Temple of the Nine God", plus other neolithic monuments, including the Standing Stones (like mini Stonehenge) in the village itself.


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## Loonook (May 18, 2012)

haakon1 said:


> Answering Loonook's questions:




See?  Like my grandmother always said...







I would have to comb over your math, but you have led me to think about generating a basic economy generator for each group.  Will pair well with the Market Generator .

Slainte,

-Loonook.


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## kigmatzomat (May 20, 2012)

Interesting.  I suggest those interested in other views on the subject get the Ennie-winning Expeditious Retreat Press' "Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe."   MMS:WE  is one of the best thought out socio-economic supplements for any fantasy RPG I've ever encountered.


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## Loonook (May 20, 2012)

Ehh, I like MMS: Europe... But there are some very odd takes on specific things that, after spending a decade studying history... I'm just going to work with this .

Anyways: Posted A New Post to the Blog regarding the Bank Security we were discussing earlier.  Here are the Economy relevant parts of the  post... Though not going means you're missing out on some great exposition and several new posts each week:




			
				The Good Gaming Blog said:
			
		

> I think I have created a nice basic template, protecting against most threats, and providing a large space to contain everything your bank/treasury may need to contain.  Strangely enough the basic design came from studying a cheap pitcher I got to see when being visited by a friend.
> 
> The pitcher contains a small channel where you can place ice or other materials.
> 
> ...




Hope you enjoy the Defense, and if you want links to specifics they are included on-site. 

Slainte,

-Loonook.


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## Zilwerks (Nov 14, 2012)

*Economy and Canals*

Thank you Loonook for all you incredibly researched and detailed postings. Also thanks to the rest with your questions and points. I will be using Pathfinder for most my RPG examples, with added information from Magical Medieval Society, Strongholds and Dynasties, and Ye Olde Shoppe.
I now bring up for you a great changer of medieval/renaissance/industrial age: The Canal.

JUST HOW MUCH DOES A CITY EAT?

When you look at RPGs in general, many generalize issues of transport but do simulate the varying technology well. Pathfinder lists your basic wagon as: Price: 35 GP, weight 400 lbs. (empty, one assumes ;-), and requiring two draft animals to pull it. Sadly the actual hauling capacity is not mentioned but history shows us it is about one ton. I will assume nice round short tons of 2000 lbs. per ton.

Cities need supplies. If they arrive by wagons, each carrying one ton and taking one day to travel 20 miles. Modern US food per day is 4.7 lbs.; I will round it to 5 lbs. per person per day because of consumption of ale, etc. So one wagon carries 400 man/days of food.

A city of 10,000 will consume at least 25 tons of foodstuff per day, probably much more considering animals and ale consumption. The means that there are 25 wagons per day, minimum. Alas distribution is not that efficient and harvests do not come every day but are seasonal.
From Ye Olde Shoppe, a 40 acre farm produces 3 tons of wheat, so there needs to be 3041 farms to create wheat to feed the city of 10,000 over the year. Of course, not all food is wheat - some are oats, barley, yams, etc. - but wheat is highly valued and the best grain for output. The farms necessary to support out city comprise 190 square miles. If we assume that every bit of land near the city can be farmed that is still all land in 8 miles of the city. Would be that land was that productive. I assume 2/3 of the land surrounding the city is not farmed. It is waste, roads, woods, rock, or just left fallow. Our circle has now grown to 12 miles. This makes longer wagon journeys and more wagons. More wagons, more teamsters, more draft animals. It gets expensive quickly. The distances that food has to be hauled make perishables expensive.

Welcome to the economic miracle of the canal.

THE CANAL

In the 1810 it cost $100 to ship 1 ton of goods from Buffalo to New York City. When the Erie Canal was finished, it went to $10. To ship one ton of goods by wagon requires a wagon, a teamster (and probably a boy to assist), and two draft animals. A wagon can operate for ten hours a day. A canal boat requires two draft animals, one bargeman (and a boy to lead the animals) and ships 30 to 50 tons. It also moves at 3 MPH with the animal pulling the barge via a towpath. The barge usually has a front cabin for the tow draft animals that work in alternating shifts and an aft cabin for the crew, typically two bargemen and a boy or a small family. Most barges operate 24 hours a day. Unlike the bumpy and noisy wagon, you can sleep on a moving barge.

CANAL CONSTRUCTION A LA RPG

Building the canal is no small task but does not require anything more than hand tools and perhaps some animal power. The Erie Canal took three men with a horse, using shovels with a plow and a scraper, one year to create one mile of canal. Most of that time was spent felling trees and pulling out stumps, not digging or piling. Much of the engineering of it was trial and error; the British canal system of the same period was more advanced. A canal is basically a ditch with embankments on the sides. The water is only 4 feet deep for the small canals such as the Erie Canal when it was first built.

Things get even better if you can afford a spellcaster or summoned being that can do a Move Earth spell. One Move Earth spell roughly does one mile of canal in four hours. A Transmute Rock to Mud spell followed by a Dispel Magic becomes an easy source of ashlar masonry blocks, useful for making canal locks, culverts, aqueducts, or reinforcing the levees. It also solves problems with digging into bedrock in rocky regions turning a strenuous mining operation into an easy shovel-the-mud operation.
Locks must be built to handle changes in elevation. Typical lock technology can only handle changes of up to 15 feet, with 10 feet being more common. Steep areas require more locks, often in a ladder-like series. Locks also require a skilled person to operate and maintain - the wooden gates require frequent repairs and maintenance. Valves are simple iron paddles and their actuators are toothed rails both of which can be made by a village blacksmith but knowing witch to throw and in what sequence is another lock keeper job. Lock keepers also monitor water levels and will seal off sections of a canal that are breached or leaking. They also collect tolls.

IT'S HARD TO SABOTAGE A DITCH

Surprisingly canals are not too susceptible to sabotage, a valid concern in a land with Orcs, Goblins, and the Chaotic Evil alignment. Long level canal runs are divided into sections by gates that are closed if a section is breached, limiting the damage if a breach occurs in the levee or berm. It also limits the flooding of fields outside the like.

ROLE PLAYING OPPORTUNITIES

Canals also allow for interesting RPG opportunities. Barge folk are an entire community unto themselves as it is cheaper to live with your family on a barge. Towns on a canal are well connected and often specialized - with cheap access to any goods or food produced anywhere on the canal a town composed entirely of smiths is possible, or an artist’s colony or religious retreat.

The downsides of a canal also make for colorful story opportunity. Criminals ply the waters of a canal, fleecing and robbing their victims and slinking away to the next stop. Waterborne diseases such as malaria and dysentery are common. Barges wear out quickly and are often piled up in some remote part of the waterway to become a dangerous pile of wrecks and an easy havens for undead. Prosperous cities can be devastated or starved very quickly if their canal is blocked via natural silt, unnatural magic, or enemy army.

Canals are one aspect of transportation and fit well in most pseudo-medieval settings. The effects of canals and all transportation should be a vital consideration when dealing with the economics of an RPG.

AND A PERSONAL RANT...

One of the great failings, IMHO, of the Golarion campaign setting for Pathfinder is the general idea of "City in the wilderness" instead of "City with fifty miles of surrounding fields, small towns, hedgerows and fences". The authors forgot the truth that for every person in a city or town there are 5 to 10 in the rural country. This fault is especially true in their Kingmaker adventure path, but good enough for gaming I guess. One of my long running pet peeve in RPGs, especially in their maps, is the lack of the terrain type known as fields - the plowed, weeded and seeded terrain of every farm. Harn was a notable exception to this problem, as is Ars Magica.

AND THANK YOU

Thanks for your time. Let me know if any of my assumptions or math is wrong. Happy gaming!

Matthew "ZilWerks" Iskra
First RPG game 1973? Continuous since 1978.


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## S'mon (Nov 15, 2012)

Re D&D economics - I've just been reading Greg Clark's_ A Farewell to Alms_, which has a lot of info on the medieval economy. One thing I noticed was that skilled craftsman wages were around twice unskilled labourer wages, though the difference declined over time. D&D seems to assume a far bigger difference, ten to one or more. Also, unskilled labourer wage was far above survival-subsistence wage. The old 'Town Planner' series from White Dwarf suggested increasing unskilled-labourer wage from 1 sp/day to 5 sp/day, and if you keep listed prices and skilled-craftsman wages then that looks about right. Alternatively craftsman wages should be far lower, but this could make the equipment prices look implausible. 

Edit: Here's a great page of medieval prices and wages - http://www.luminarium.org/medlit/medprice.htm
In terms of wages and costs, a D&D 'silver piece' is more akin to a penny than to a shilling, eg the bottom table of wages shows the thatcher (skilled worker) wage rising from 2p to ca 6p over 300 years, while his assistant (unskilled worker) wage went from 1p to ca 4p. In the mercenary wages, the lowest listed is 2p/day for Welsh infantry in 1346; armoured infantry earned 6p/day at the same time. Those look to translate closely to D&D sp/day. Armourers in 1544 earned 24 shillings/month, at 12p/shilling that's 288p/month or around 30gp in D&D terms, at a time when unskilled workers were earning around 4p/day. So if the setting is a late-medieval economy unskilled workers should likely be earning ca 3-5 sp/day.


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## S'mon (Nov 15, 2012)

Zilwerks said:


> One of the great failings, IMHO, of the Golarion campaign setting for Pathfinder is the general idea of "City in the wilderness" instead of "City with fifty miles of surrounding fields, small towns, hedgerows and fences". The authors forgot the truth that for every person in a city or town there are 5 to 10 in the rural country. This fault is especially true in their Kingmaker adventure path, but good enough for gaming I guess. One of my long running pet peeve in RPGs, especially in their maps, is the lack of the terrain type known as fields - the plowed, weeded and seeded terrain of every farm. Harn was a notable exception to this problem, as is Ars Magica.




I agree strongly about fields! I add them in to all my maps; fertile farmland typically can have 100 farmers per square mile supporting 25 city folk, though 50/10 is also common, and the Roman-style Latifundia slave farms of the City State of the Invincible Overlord are much more 'efficient' but require constant import of new workers.

Re canals, they don't feel very 'medieval', but would fit well in certain settings, eg Golarion's Andoran (post-Revolutionary USA) or Molthune (19th century Prussia)


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## Loonook (Nov 15, 2012)

S'mon said:


> I agree strongly about fields! I add them in to all my maps; fertile farmland typically can have 100 farmers per square mile supporting 25 city folk, though 50/10 is also common, and the Roman-style Latifundia slave farms of the City State of the Invincible Overlord are much more 'efficient' but require constant import of new workers.
> 
> Re canals, they don't feel very 'medieval', but would fit well in certain settings, eg Golarion's Andoran (post-Revolutionary USA) or Molthune (19th century Prussia)




Canals can be useful, and were used in medieval times on a small scale for quarrying or other purposes.  The real trouble is trying to maintain these canals.

 [MENTION=463]S'mon[/MENTION] RE: your boosting of wages.  There comes the slippery slope.  While we are discussing self-sufficiency in the previous posts, the life of an unskilled laborer has a self-sufficient upkeep cost.  In fact, as stated in my posts here, most laborers would take up some small skill to help boost their stock in life.  Either way, a silver sounds about right for an 8 hour day of completely unskilled labor (around 20$ USD.)

I do apologize about being away, as I am still recovering and using a text-to-speech and assisted typing program.  It's been several months, and I am hoping to be back to more regular posting soon.

Slainte,

-Loonook.


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## S'mon (Nov 15, 2012)

Loonook said:


> [MENTION=463]S'mon[/MENTION] RE: your boosting of wages.  There comes the slippery slope.  While we are discussing self-sufficiency in the previous posts, the life of an unskilled laborer has a self-sufficient upkeep cost.  In fact, as stated in my posts here, most laborers would take up some small skill to help boost their stock in life.  Either way, a silver sounds about right for an 8 hour day of completely unskilled labor (around 20$ USD.)




My point though is that if a silver is about right for a labourer, then by real world medieval wages a typical skilled worker/artisan in a medieval-European type economy should make no more than about 2 sp/day. And in recent times the gap has actually been considerably less.


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## mmadsen (Nov 15, 2012)

Loonook said:


> From the age of adulthood (15 per 3.x PHB Table 6-4) to the maximum age range (110) a human unskilled laborer who never adventurers and just subsists earns 3467.5 GP.  The average life span of a peasant in the Middle Ages would be between 30-45, with lowest lifetime earnings between 540 gp - 1080 gp.
> 
> Overall if you survive to ages below you have a Net Worth of (includes costs of meager living 24 gp/yr.):
> 
> ...



More plausibly, a peasant would not acquire assets of any real value but would instead acquire a wife and then children.  His "net worth" would take the form of surviving family.


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## mmadsen (Nov 15, 2012)

Loonook said:


> Either way, a silver sounds about right for an 8 hour day of completely unskilled labor (around 20$ USD.)



In most of the world today, outside the modern economies of the US, Europe, etc., completely unskilled labor earns closer to $2 per day than $20.


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## Loonook (Nov 15, 2012)

mmadsen said:


> More plausibly, a peasant would not acquire assets of any real value but would instead acquire a wife and then children.  His "net worth" would take the form of surviving family.






 You're not figure in the cost of a house, clothing, tools, durable goods, or other items acquired over a lifetime.  That cost provides for what you can assume a peasant would have available in their home, losses, etc.  A peasant family who has somehow acquired a home (5000 GP per 3.x) from inheritance, gentry largess, or squatting could stock said home with such goods. Figure that a peasant may give away/gain items through dowry, service, or gifts? The number isn't exactly out of the question.

Of course most of these items would be useless to an adventuring party (how many wagons plows and stout doors can you loot?) but the value is there. 

Also, in response to your complaints on wages: I figured a Western standard of living in a world where disease, famine, and goods and services are roughly akin to the average D&D game.  Thus we took the basis of the subsistence silver piece rate as a calculation based on a family of 4 living at or below the poverty line statistics within the continental US. Nitpick the numbers, do your own calculations, or what have you... All of the methods are listed with the figures.

Slainte,

-Loonook.


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## S'mon (Nov 15, 2012)

mmadsen said:


> In most of the world today, outside the modern economies of the US, Europe, etc., completely unskilled labor earns closer to $2 per day than $20.




But that is a much lower standard of living than in the medieval European or Roman world, where labourers did indeed earn the equivalent of around $20/day. As Greg Clark points out, much of the world is much poorer now than in the past.


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## haakon1 (Nov 16, 2012)

*Fix my campaign*

OK, guys, fix my setting.

I created 27 knight-baronies, or baronetcies, for Bissel (in Greyhawk) with a population of 150,000 total.  I haven't determined the area of Bissel, but it's a points-of-light-ish setting.

My Bissel (the borders aren't any official Greyhawk edition, and I'm interpreting the geography from the map) has geography I describe thus:

----------

Bissel guards a gap (known to geographers as the Bramblewood Gap) between the two major mountain ranges (Yatils Mountains to the north, Barrier Peaks to the south) that separate the Baklunish civilization in the west from the Suel/Oeridian civilization to the east.  

This gap region is heavily forested, scarcely populated upland -- the  Bramblewood Forest.  One well-maintained main road -- the Irafa Road -- and several secondary tracks cross the forest between Ket (in the north) and the Bisselite capital of Thornward (to the south).

To the east of the Bramblewood, near the foothills of the Yatils, the forest turns to scrub land (small bushes and other brush) with more settlements, including the small city of Falwur.

The Fals River begins in the Yatils and flows through central Bissel.  The Fals River valley is Bissel's heartland, where most of the population lives and most of the food is grown.  The walled capital city, Thornward, is on the banks of the Fals.  The Fals flows south and east, towards the Archclericy of Veluna, where it joins the Velverdyva River, which then flows through the Kingdom of Furyondy and empties into the Nyr Dyv, or Lake of Unknown Depths, at the Free City of Dyvers and near the Free City of Greyhawk.

Southern Bissel -- south of Thornward -- is a high plains region with a temperate, dry climate, inhabited by scattered herdsman and small farmers, centered on the town of Pellak.

The borders in this region are friendly.  To the south across the plain is Gran March, the Kingdom of Keoland’s northernmost territory, and Bissel's staunch ally in fighting off Kettite invaders.

To the west of Pellak, the Realstream spills down from the Barrier Peaks and skirts along their foothills.  The Realstream valley is inhabited mostly by Flannae aborigines, but the leaders pay homage to Thornward.

The Realstream flows into the Dim Forest, a wilderness truly within the bounds of no realm, before eventually emptying into the great Javan River of Keoland, south of the freetown of Hochoch.  Hochoch is on the border between the Grand Duchy of Geoff and Gran March, both territories of Keoland.  Portions of the Dim Forest are claimed by Bissel, Gran March, Geoff, and Hochoch, but there are few inhabitants so the undefined borders matter little.

(Physically and climatically, much of Bissel resembles the mountainous parts of New England, particularly Vermont.  The scrub areas along the Yatil’s foothills resemble the Chapparal hills of California or the Fynbos of South Africa, while the high plains resemble the flatter high plateau areas of western Montana and Wyoming.)

----------------

Here's how I spread out the population:

Bissel Population: 150,000 (town or city = 18,220, so 12% urban)

• NW Bissel (Banner Hills and Bramblewood Borderlands) = 7,000 
o Alnwick = 1,500 (Alnwick Castle 300)
o Bambaugh = 1,500 (Castle of Joyous Guard 600)
o Brecon = 2,000 (Brecon Castle 300)
o Bungay & Framlingham = 2,000 (both castles now ruined by war)​
• N Bissel (northern Bramblewood, edge of Ket plateau) = 11,000
o Prudhoe = 11,000  (Prudhoe town = 1,000)​
• NE Bissel (Between Yatils and Bramblewood on Falwur Road) = 32,500
o Falwur = 30,000  (Falwur city = 4,800)
o Piren’s Bluff = 2,500 (Piren's Bluff village 210)​
• Bramblewood Forest = 2,000
o Bartheld = 1,800 (Hart House 150)
o Dzeebagd = 200 (Tirthon Castle 60, Dzeebagd Castle 50)​
• Western Bissel (Between Barrier Peaks spur and Bramblewood) = 3,000
o Grossmont = 3,000 (Grossmont Castle 200)​
• Central Bissel (Heartland in Fals River valley) = 50,500
o Thornward = 35,000 (Thornward city = 6,000)
o Bridgewater = 3,400 (Bridgewater Island 400)
o Buckbray = 1,500 (Buckbray Manor 545)
o Grenward = 3,600 (Castle Grenward 250, Wellyn's Ferry 100)
o Oakhurst = 7,000 (Oakhurst town = 900, Furness Abbey = 300, Barrow's Edge village = 100)​
• East Bissel (North Lorridges, southern Yatils along North Road) = 6,800
o Argalia = 3,200 (Maidensbridge town = 900)
o Mountain’s Reach = 2,400 (Mountain's Reach castle + Lordsview village =200)
o Kendall = 1,200 (Kendall Keep = 220, Trobridge "free" village = 200)​
• Southeast Bissel (Lorridges, Fals River Valley into Veluna) = 7,700
o Barnard = 1,500 (Barnard Castle = 100)
o Navan = 4,500 (Fairhill village = 420, Navan manor = 120)
o Deepen Hall = 1,700  (Deepen Hall = 300)​
• South Bissel (Plains along Watchtower Road) = 22,500
o Circencastle & Deganwy 9,000 (Circencastle town = 1,000, Deganwy Castle = 200)
o Pellak = 13,500 (Castle Oversight + Pellak city = 2,300)​
• SW Bissel (Realstream Valley into Dim Forest) = 7,000
o Carreg Cennen = 1,700 (Carreg Cennen fortress = 200)
o Carew = 1,000 (Carew Castle = 100)
o Hammerstone = 3,500 (Smithton town = 900)
o Ossington = 800 (Ossington village = 160, Ferry Crossing = 60)​
---------------

Here's a sample write-up of a Baronetcy:

Bridgewater – 
a. On an island in the Fals River, Bridgewater is at the junction of the Irafa Road (which crosses the Bramblewood Forest towards Lopolla in Ket) and the Falwur Road.  Thornward is downstream, Buckbray upstream, and Dzeebagd is the next town out the Irafa Road.

b. Bridgewater is infested with Magershole Gang, who extort merchants, prey on travelers, and engage in smuggling and other nefarious activities.

c. The former Baronet Ralph Walkley, born a gentleman named Ralph Dreymar, rose high to become High Chamberlain of the Margrave.  He married Lady Sibel Walkley, an only child who was heir to Bridgewater.  Her father, Baronet Warren Walkley, adopted Ralph, who became the heir.  Ralph died two years ago.

d. Lady Sonya Walkley (age 53) helps her son, Baronet Godwine Walkley (age 17) rule.  She has hired an excellent tutor for his son, and they are slowly working out a strategy to suppress the Magershole Gang and revive Bridgewater’s once substantial trade.

e. Based on Medieval Total War 2: Britannia, and Buckbray Manor module.

f. Population: Bridgewater Island 400.  Baronetcy 3,400.


--------------------

And another:

Kendall
a. Kendall Keep, or “The Keep on the Borderlands” protects the North Road, which skirts the southern edge of the Yatils on its way towards the Highfolk and Baranford in Furyondy’s Duchy of the Reach.  Outside the Keep itself, this is a wilderness region of scattered hearty crofters and semi-nomadic Flannae mountaineers.  Goblins and lizardmen are also common in the area.  The economy of the region depends on road traffic and collecting tariffs – the Merchant’s Guild has a depot in the Keep.

b. Kendall’s nearest neighbors are Mountain’s Reach (towards Thornward on the North Road), Argalia (up Argalia Creek), and Navan baronetcy and the Velunese capital of Mitrik, both across the Fals River.

c. The settlement of Trobridge, at a ford of the North Road across Argalia Creek near its junction with the Fals River, is claimed by Bissel to be part of Kendall baronetcy, but its residents do not agree, and consider their village “free” and independent of all outside authority.  Veluna also has claimed it in the past.

d. Former Baronet Macsen Wledig was a retired adventurer, appointed by the Margrave some 30 years ago.  He died leading the castle’s strong garrison forces some 17 years ago (571 CY), in a border battle with the Kettites.  Castellan Master Devereau, a invalided archer, had been left in charge and effectively became the ruler of the Keep, though his authority over the outlying areas of the Baronetcy withered.  During this period, the Caves of Chaos grew dangerous.  They were cleared by adventurers in 576 CY, but by 587 CY the threat had regrown, with an evil cult at the heart of it.

e. Baronet <PC #1> is an adventuring wizard, newly appointed to the post for service to the Margrave, most particularly in preventing the secession of Piren’s Bluff, but also for actions at Kendall Keep itself, in Dzeebagd, at Ossington, and at Buckbray Tower.  He and his friends saved the Keep from an overwhelming assault by bandits and undead from the Caves of Chaos in December 587 CY, and negotiated a peace deal with the goblin king, Haggidiah the Old.  Baronet <PC #1> is the nephew of Baronet Adrian of Navan.

f. Master Devereau remains in charge of the day-to-day management of the Keep.  The most important guardians of the place are <retired PC>, <retired PC>, Jess Greevesdottir (the roguish owner of the Green Man inn, retired NPC), Lt. Jedale, and Sabine the Gatekeeper.

g. Brother <PC #2>, a monk of Rao and adventuring companion of Baronet <PC #2>, has awarded a patent to build a monastery to his god near the Keep, but construction has not yet begun.  Brother <PC #2> is also the Sheriff of Kendall, enforcing the Margrave's justice in the region.

h. Source: Keep on the Borderlands module, Return to the Keep on the Borderlands module, plus actual play

i. Population: Kendall Keep & Monastery = 220. Region 1,200. In addition, the “free” village of Trobridge has a population of about 200.

-----------

My question is, am I screwing up by having "population centers" of a few hundred, and the rest just are "more people who live in tiny hamlets and isolated crofts I don't need to detail but make up the majority of the population".  Should it be a fewer centers with true villages of 500 people each?

I don't see much of that in modules, but from Magical Mystical society, it seems to be the norm.

Or perhaps the Keep on the Borderlands should be 200 people in the castle proper, then the other 1000 are nearby, in contiguous fields stretching around it (but again, never mentioned in modules), rather than in separate small settlements (unworthy of mention)?


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## Loonook (Nov 16, 2012)

haakon1 said:


> OK, guys, fix my setting.




First, your numbers seem alright.  Personally I use a Walk/March/Ride system for large population centers.  I like to include the largest portion of the population within a day's walk of the center.   A day's march is probably the farthest a ruler will send out troops to protect, and you're looking at mostly sparse areas such as a craftsmen's thorp, a fold of sheep, the baron's foresters, etc.

The day's ride is your undisputed territory.  This is sort of the nebulous region where you would place another power center, and chart from there.

I consider a Baron's total holdings probably just being in the 1/2 Walk/March range.  A 4 mile radius is where most of your people would live, while the boonies consist of your forests, livestock out to pasture, etc.

That's just a personal opinion that sits somewhere between Medieval rules and an extended fantasy region ideology, but again just IMHO.

Slainte,

-Loonook.


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## S'mon (Nov 16, 2012)

haakon1 said:


> My question is, am I screwing up by having "population centers" of a few hundred, and the rest just are "more people who live in tiny hamlets and isolated crofts I don't need to detail but make up the majority of the population".  Should it be a fewer centers with true villages of 500 people each?
> 
> I don't see much of that in modules, but from Magical Mystical society, it seems to be the norm.




In poor farming land such as north-west Scotland and much of Scandinavia, people are spread out in isolated family crofts, steadings etc, with small market towns of a few hundred within a half-day's walk, so about every twenty miles. The town will be the centre of power for the local ruler. Population density of 10/square mile is a good baseline (about 30/square mile of farmed land, 30% of land farmed).

In rich farming land such as Kent, people are clustered in villages of around 120-200, with only about two miles between villages. There will be a market town of possibly over a thousand people within a half-day's walk, so one every twenty miles, but often more frequent. Population density of 100/square mile is a good baseline (about 150/square mile of good farmland, 66% of land farmed).

Intermediate sorts of terrain will result in something in-between.


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## Blackbrrd (Nov 16, 2012)

Actually, in Norway you had very few villages at all. Instead the farms were spread throughout the countryside. You had some trading towns like Bergen, Trondheim, Tønsberg and Oslo. All located with access to the sea. Very little trade was probably done overland.


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## Orius (Nov 17, 2012)

Very interesting math, and I may take a look over it sometime if I remember the thread exists.

Though I wonder how many players are more interested in how many xps an NPC is worth rather than gp.    (Of course in 1e, they're practically the same thing! )


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## S'mon (Nov 17, 2012)

Blackbrrd said:


> Actually, in Norway you had very few villages at all. Instead the farms were spread throughout the countryside. You had some trading towns like Bergen, Trondheim, Tønsberg and Oslo. All located with access to the sea. Very little trade was probably done overland.




How far apart would you say coastal settlements were in medieval Norway? When I visited in 2004 I got the impression ca 20 miles or so would have been about right.


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## S'mon (Dec 1, 2012)

Blackbrrd said:


> Actually, in Norway you had very few villages at all. Instead the farms were spread throughout the countryside. You had some trading towns like Bergen, Trondheim, Tønsberg and Oslo. All located with access to the sea. Very little trade was probably done overland.




Villages/population centres on the coast, farmsteads throughout the countryside, yes? AFAICT there were definitely some trade centres where farmers could acquire goods they did not produce themselves, though the level of self reliance would have been much higher than in richer farmland areas such as most of medieval France, or southern England.


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## Blackbrrd (Dec 1, 2012)

I came over this whitepaper on the subject of farms/hamlets/villages http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/publications/iha-medieval-settlements/medievalsettlements.pdf basically it depended on how rich the soil was. If the soil was rich, you got villages, otherwise you got seperate farms.


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## Loonook (Dec 9, 2012)

Interesting edition to the thread.

I will definitely have to check it out.

Slainte,

-Loonook.


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## jasper (Dec 10, 2012)

Loonook your math looks a little off but I don't have my books handy so I let stand. Also  Food does not come in ready to eat squares or cubes, so your food per wagon seems a bit off also.  You also are trying to mix real world examples from across the time and world, which are not adding up or forgetting your source of production of food. You also are forgetting wear and tear on durable items.  But it a great series of ideas.  
Ps you should be able to dig out my post on decanter of endless water, and Hong's 7.5 billion Chicken rant. If not I can repost them.


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## Cleon (Dec 15, 2012)

Loonook said:


> Overall if you survive to ages below you have a Net Worth of (includes costs of meager living 24 gp/yr.):




Hold on a mo, where do you get this costs of meager living of 24 gold per year from?

Are you assuming this commoner's growing his own food? If he _is_ then the time that takes would subtract from his "working for money" hours.

If he was buying food at the 3E D&D costs in the SRD *Food, Drink, and Lodging* table it'd beggar them even if he's living off bread and cheese, drinks nothing but water and only eats meat once a year.

e.g. assuming the commoner's performing hard labour, they'd be eating, say, 2  pounds of bread (8 cp) and a pound of cheese (2 sp) a day - or the  equivalent in whatever the local basic food is (noodles/tofu/etc). That's 2.8  sp a day, or 1022 sp a year. Even if their diet's nothing but bread and water, that's still 292 silver pieces a year.

In my own game, I resolved this by assuming the *Food, Drink, and Lodging* prices were grossly inflated "adventurers prices" that normal peasants don't pay. It costs 1 silver a day to hire an untrained labourer according to the  Services table, which presumably covers their basic maintenance costs  (e.g. food and a suit of artisan's clothing every year).

So, the 1 sp "hunk of cheese" is a fine Brie, and the 2 cp "loaf of bread" is an luxury white loaf. A peasant should be able to purchase a day's worth of rye bread and cheddar for less than 10 coppers.


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## Loonook (Dec 15, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Hold on a mo, where do you get this costs of meager living of 24 gold per year from?




3.x DMG p. 130, sidebar marked Variant: Upkeep.  Provides one of the easy no-muss, no-fuss base upkeep costs for various character types.

Slainte,

-Loonook.


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## Cleon (Dec 17, 2012)

Loonook said:


> 3.x DMG p. 130, sidebar marked Variant: Upkeep.  Provides one of the easy no-muss, no-fuss base upkeep costs for various character types.
> 
> Slainte,
> 
> -Loonook.




Ta, I suspected it was in the 3E DMG somewhere.

I'm so used to using online SRD references I don't often pull out my copies very often.

Those upkeep costs are a pretty good match for the prices in the *Player's Handbook* Food, Drink & Lodging table. 45 gp a month is plenty for Common level stay at an Inn (5 sp/day) and meals (3 sp) over a month (30 days * 8sp = 24 gp), plus incidentals like horsefeed and equipment maintenance. Poor lodgings & food will cost 9 gp over the same period.

They still don't match very well the "list price" of basics like break, cheese and ale.

Also, these are upkeep prices for "Adventurers on the go" - the equivalent of staying at a hotel and eating out every day. 'Regular folk' would be living at home and preparing their own food, so their Upkeep costs should really be lower than that.


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## Loonook (Dec 17, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Ta, I suspected it was in the 3E DMG somewhere.
> 
> I'm so used to using online SRD references I don't often pull out my copies very often.
> 
> ...




Not really.  If you think of the average cow producing ~ 5 gallons/day.  That comes out to around 5 lbs of butter and 3 lbs of cheese with a gallon of milk to spare.  A half dozen hens can lay eggs for the day, and all of these goods could be traded for other needs.  Combine this with the ability to raise on a small plot around your home and the average villager is doing quite well supporting themselves... But will still need money for basic items throughout the year.  As an average it works pretty solidly figuring replacement costs for various animals over their life cycle (if breeding fails).  

For a laborer in the city a 1 SP/day job could cause some issues just due to the costs... But then a laborer could also be seen assisting the baker, the butcher, the cheesemonger, etc. when the day is slow.

Slainte,

-Loonook.


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## Cleon (Dec 17, 2012)

Loonook said:


> Not really.  If you think of the average cow producing ~ 5 gallons/day.  That comes out to around 5 lbs of butter and 3 lbs of cheese with a gallon of milk to spare.  A half dozen hens can lay eggs for the day, and all of these goods could be traded for other needs.  Combine this with the ability to raise on a small plot around your home and the average villager is doing quite well supporting themselves... But will still need money for basic items throughout the year.  As an average it works pretty solidly figuring replacement costs for various animals over their life cycle (if breeding fails).
> 
> For a laborer in the city a 1 SP/day job could cause some issues just due to the costs... But then a laborer could also be seen assisting the baker, the butcher, the cheesemonger, etc. when the day is slow.
> 
> ...




The point I was making was the upkeep prices are supposedly for *player characters*. As such, they're adventurers who (going by most 3E campaigns I've seen) spend a significant portion of their time traipsing around the countryside, going down holes in the ground, killing monsters et cetera.

If they're doing that, they can't be spending that much time farming - tilling crops can take a lot of work.

For that matter, if a labourer is doing a day's work to earn his silver piece, where are they getting the time to grow their own food / sew their clothes et cetera *as well*. Of course it's easier to explain if a labourer is a peasant farmer - they're growing a crop and giving a portion to their employer/master and (hopefully) have enough left over to eat - but if the labourer is, say, doing digging canals or loading wagons for a living they are unlikely to grow food to supplement their pay. They can hardly carry a small allotment around with them.

Either some of the "subsistence level" workers are given a significant chunk of spare time to look after their needs, or their food is an additional expense that their employer has to meet that doesn't appear to be covered in the current expenses tables.

Hmm, I suppose they could receive state aid, getting a "bread and oil" dole like ancient Roman commoners, or welfare payments like some Walmart workers...


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## Loonook (Dec 18, 2012)

Most peasants living in subsistence did have a croft to grow their meager food.  Also, depending on location, a meal could be provided to the laborer alongside their work just to prevent the need for an extended period of leave to find lunch.  

Of course he may do any number of additional things to trade for services.  Skill barter is pretty common among the poor even today... Why wouldn't it be in a medieval analog?  


Slainte,

-Loonook.


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## Balesir (Dec 18, 2012)

Hmm, interesting prognostications - but with a few questions in the historical, economical and political spheres, I think. First off, the assumption:


Loonook said:


> Not really.  If you think of the average cow producing ~ 5 gallons/day.  That comes out to around 5 lbs of butter and 3 lbs of cheese with a gallon of milk to spare.  A half dozen hens can lay eggs for the day, and all of these goods could be traded for other needs.  Combine this with the ability to raise on a small plot around your home and the average villager is doing quite well supporting themselves... But will still need money for basic items throughout the year.  As an average it works pretty solidly figuring replacement costs for various animals over their life cycle (if breeding fails).



This seems to relate to modern-style cattle with modern stock management methods. I guess a magical society might have developed analogues, but if you want a (pseudo-)medieval milieu, with largely rural population (85-95%, typically), then it's way over the top. Medieval cattle were smaller, less genetically developed for specific purposes (like milk yield) and nowhere near as intensively managed. Milk was typically yielded only between around Easter and Michaelmas, the cow having calved in the due season of the year. A while back I estimated ~96 gallons of (full) milk per year as a reasonable estimate - all coming in the spring and summer months (see Walter of Henley here or here for a reference - a "wey" is defined here). Hens likewise will lay roughly 4 dozen eggs per year each.

The second point is that generating a "realistic" _monetary_ economy in a world with "adventurers" is somewhat problematic, even though it can be an interesting thought exercise. The problem is that influxes of "treasure" will cause untoward inflation. This will debase currency, but isn't necessarily a problem for the economy as a whole since it likely depends on money to a far lesser extent than we tend to assume from our own (modern) experience. Most transactions will be "in kind"; money will likely seldom change hands. The 'soldier' who is "hired" by the lord is likely retained on one of two bases:

1) In household. The soldier lives in the lord's household and is fed, clothed, armed and equipped by the household staff and incomes. The peasants pay their taxes in grain, livestock, dairy produce, wool, flax, fruit and so on - and the lords household process these to make meals and clothing and so on for the household members. The lord may even have an armourer who makes and maintains weapons and armour for the lord and all his men. The only money the soldier sees is if, as a special treat, he is given some to spend when the fair comes to town, or when he ventures out "on campaign" - likely with his lord.

2) By holding. The soldier holds some land, rights or priviledges that allow him to harvest either goods or some sort of income for himself. He doesn't "own" these lands or rights - he "holds" them from the lord (who he may rely upon to uphold them, if they are threatened). Peasants hold their land in a similar way - by (verbal) contract with the lord.

By the way, the word "farming", in medieval Europe, has another meaning to that we commonly use today. It means, essentially, "to rent". The "farmer" pays a set sum to the land (or rights) owner to have the use of the farmed land or rights and priviledges for a set period of time. A "farmer" is thus, strictly speaking, only someone who holds land or rights in this restricted sense. Most peasants are not "farmers", since they hold the land for labour services, not for money or goods rent, in medieval Europe. I mention this because it may help understand parts of the Walter of Henley text I referenced above. Sheriffs were sometimes "farmers", in the sense that they paid an annual sum to the king for the right to enact the king's law in a shire; any fines, taxes, fees and such that they could wring out of the inhabitants was then theirs to keep. This may well explain some of the "evil sheriff" tropes we see in such stories as "Robin Hood".

Next we have the idea of earning "interest" on the estate in order to assure future ressurrection. An intriguing idea, but it relies on two slightly bothersome aspects (that might even point up good adventure ideas...)

The idea of "rates of return" was certainly known in medieval times - the monestaries seem to have had rules of thumb that effectively amounted to a ~10% discounted cash flow rate of return policy.The issue is likely to be that this is limited, both by technology and by demographics. Capital, in economic terms, is broadly the gainful employment of an investment made by the younger generation in return for their upkeep while they are old. Eschewing ones "elder days" to die, to "sleep" a while might sound attractive in the abstract, but it has a couple of serious drawbacks. First is that investment return from ones own progeny is both safe and practical; the degree of capital leverage is small and the closeness of the individuals with whom it is "in trust" ensures that the debt is likely to be honoured. Stretch the term to generations, however, and I think both of these are in danger of breaking down - viz:

1) There is a danger that the amount of capital available, being more than that normally associated with the "pension" investment normally generated between generations, exceeds the capacity of the available technology to increase the productivity of the (younger) workers, and

2) The dead "Elders" would need to find ultimately trustworthy caretakers for their estates. This assumes either remarkable ancestral loyalty (it only takes one "bad egg"...) or an incredible degree of the "rule of law" in terms of property rights and so on.

Finally, on the "settlement in the wilds" situation, here are some "rules of thumb":

- Agriculturalists who know basically what they are doing can be taxed up to ~50% and still subsist with medieval-level technology.

- Much of the "tax" will be foodstuffs and such like - highly perishable - that is good for upkeep of servants and household locally, but likely to lose ~50% of its value if exported.

- Roughly 10% of what is produced would be the "normal" level of export to towns and such like.

- A household of, on average, 5 people (including children and old folk) can cultivate roughly 40 acres of arable land - or 16 households per square mile. Such a household will also prepare and cook their own food, make their own clothes and so on.

- The main thing such people will contract with a lord for is protection. We take law and order in the form of property rights for granted, but in a world with "monsters" - many of them human - this will not be so clear. The peasants can survive quite well on their land - *if* they are assured of their own safety and of their rights to the use of the land. They are generally quite well aware that the lord's own household seldom cultivates any land with its own people; if the lord fails to protect them, then their own part of the bargain (providing labour for the demesne fields and produce taxes) is naturally forfeit. In the extreme, they can just run away.

Interesting thread - to which I hope I have added interest and ideas. I don't mean the issues I raise as criticism, just some challenges to be overcome.


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## haakon1 (Dec 19, 2012)

Balesir said:


> Finally, on the "settlement in the wilds" situation, here are some "rules of thumb":
> 
> - Agriculturalists who know basically what they are doing can be taxed up to ~50% and still subsist with medieval-level technology.
> 
> ...




I'd love rules of thumb like these, so thanks for this.  But I'll question you anyhow . . . 

"40 acres and a mule" sounds like a mid-19th century American farm -- literally what they thought freed slaves would need -- which I'd think involved a higher level of technology and more acreage than a medievel peasant family could deal with.  Of course, 160 acres was a homestead under the 1862 Homestead Act, so perhaps 40 acres could be farmed very easily in the 19th century, and reasonably in medieval times?

50% in tax and 10% in export may or may not be high . . . but since I don't know the value of the peasant family's production, I don't really have a "useful" context for that anyhow.


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## Balesir (Dec 19, 2012)

haakon1 said:


> "40 acres and a mule" sounds like a mid-19th century American farm -- literally what they thought freed slaves would need -- which I'd think involved a higher level of technology and more acreage than a medievel peasant family could deal with.  Of course, 160 acres was a homestead under the 1862 Homestead Act, so perhaps 40 acres could be farmed very easily in the 19th century, and reasonably in medieval times?



I misspoke in one important respect, sorry - that should be ~40 acres of _agricultural_ land. Only a part of that would be arable. And the figure didn't change all that much - even though productivity went up - from 1300 to 1850 (see paper here). Note that this is how much the family can work, not how much they need to survive - they could theoretically survive on a much smaller plot if it was all good arable land.



haakon1 said:


> 50% in tax and 10% in export may or may not be high . . . but since I don't know the value of the peasant family's production, I don't really have a "useful" context for that anyhow.



The same paper as above estimates the split overall from manor estates as follows:

- Labour - 49%
- Land and church - 39%
- Capital (i.e. repair and replacement) - 12%

I round these off to 50/40/10 as a guideline. The lord is typically responsible for the capital, or at least most of it, but provides it with labour and materials supplied by the peasants as part of their annual obligation, hence it's a part of the "tax".

As a very general guide, if 1 sp per day is an "unskilled labourer" "wage", then you might assume that a day's work cultivating or similar "unskilled" work generates 2 sp of "goods in kind". Of these, the worker keeps 1 sp worth and 1 sp worth is split between the landlord, the church(es) and the cost of "domain upkeep" (the latter being ~0.2 to 0.25 sp per day worked on the domain). I say "domain" rather than "demesne", here, because it would cover all of the estate, not just the demesne lands, the produce of which goes to the landlord even though they are worked by the peasants (this being the most usual form of "tax").

In towns, the same 2 sp per day of value will be generated, but taxes work differently. Town taxes are mostly property and sales taxes, so they will generally be levied via rent for dwellings and prices in the marketplace. All assuming a "pseudo-medieval europe" setup, of course, but similar basic limitations will apply to whatever milieu you choose, even if the specifics are different.

The 10% export figure comes from the ratio of rural to urban population; a rural population exports only what the townsfolk need in the way of rural product, so the population ratio is a fair gauge of export %. Town populations were roughly 5% to 15% of the total population throughout the ancient and medieval period - thus medieval agriculture can support roughly one townsman per 7-19 rural population. In other words, 5-15% of the produced food and other agricultural goods goes to feed and supply the town population, who are estimated at 5-15% of the population total.


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## Cleon (Dec 19, 2012)

Loonook said:


> Most peasants living in subsistence did have a croft to grow their meager food.  Also, depending on location, a meal could be provided to the laborer alongside their work just to prevent the need for an extended period of leave to find lunch.




Exactly, it was common practice for the employer to feed their laborers when they worked away from home. My problem is that the cost of that doesn't appear to be incorporated in 3E's "a silver a day" price for a Labourer's services.

In Medieval and pre-medieval times, feeding a labouring workforce could easily cost more than actually paying them. Indeed, in many cases the lord wouldn't pay them, but had the right to a certain number of days free labour. They still have to eat, though.


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## Loonook (Dec 19, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Exactly, it was common practice for the employer to feed their laborers when they worked away from home. My problem is that the cost of that doesn't appear to be incorporated in 3E's "a silver a day" price for a Labourer's services.
> 
> In Medieval and pre-medieval times, feeding a labouring workforce could easily cost more than actually paying them. Indeed, in many cases the lord wouldn't pay them, but had the right to a certain number of days free labour. They still have to eat, though.




Yes.  But we are also working in a defined cash society.  If you don't agree you can always have a laborer who is being fed by his workforce and receiving 1 sp/day have his upkeep covered.

If a farmer is growing their own food?  Consider them as being covered to the 2 GP/month standard also.  If the Farmer then decides to increase his standard of living he may go up further on the scale subtracting those costs.

An individual who is not being fed by the Lord still receives the 1sp and must fend for himself, receiving a net 1 GP/month not spend on his self-sufficient upkeep that he can then spend the rest on replacing clothing or such.

It really just depends on your specific demography.

Slainte,

-Loonook.


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## Cleon (Dec 19, 2012)

Loonook said:


> Yes.  But we are also working in a defined cash society.  If you don't agree you can always have a laborer who is being fed by his workforce and receiving 1 sp/day have his upkeep covered.
> 
> If a farmer is growing their own food?  Consider them as being covered to the 2 GP/month standard also.  If the Farmer then decides to increase his standard of living he may go up further on the scale subtracting those costs.
> 
> An individual who is not being fed by the Lord still receives the 1sp and must fend for himself, receiving a net 1 GP/month not spend on his self-sufficient upkeep that he can then spend the rest on replacing clothing or such.




Sorry, I'm having trouble parsing your reply. D&D campaigns in general do seem to have more money-based economies than existed in the historical periods they pay lip service too, which were mostly built on crops of various kinds (rice, wool or whatever).

But think of it from a players' point of view. Say they want to hire some workmen to dig a moat (labourer = untrained hireling = 1 sp/day) or hire some warriors to guard their house while they go exploring (mercenary warriors = trained hireling = 3 sp/day) they are going to expect the money to cover all the expenses fora full day's work.

If the labourers only work for a couple of hours and then say "I'm on Self-Sufficient Upkeep, I'm off home to tend my fields!" or "it's time for lunch! What have you brought to feed us?" I'd likely get complaints.

But if the labourers are only getting paid enough to cover their food for that day (poor meals = 1 sp/day), why the heck are they working for hire? They're not even making money towards their 2 gp/month Self Sufficient upkeep.

Under the 3E RAW, a 1st level Commoner would make far more money performing DC 5 Craft checks and selling simple wooden items - they'd Craft an average of 5 gp per week assuming they have a +0 Skill modifier, which would leave them with a profit of 21 silver pieces and 6 coppers per week after they subtract the 1/3 cost of raw materials, 7 sp for a week of poor-quality meals plus the roughly 4 and 2/3rd silver pieces that a week of "Self Sufficiency" costs (2 gp * 7 day week / 30 day month).

It costs 3 silver a day to employ a trained hireling, which is "the typical daily wage for mercenary warriors, masons, craftsmen, scribes, teamsters". That's less than a peasant can make in *profit* from carving wooden spoons, going by the rules!

The costs and expenses of a 3E hired help just don't match, as far as I can tell.


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## Loonook (Dec 19, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Sorry, I'm having trouble parsing your reply. D&D campaigns in general do seem to have more money-based economies than existed in the historical periods they pay lip service too, which were mostly built on crops of various kinds (rice, wool or whatever).
> 
> But think of it from a players' point of view. Say they want to hire some workmen to dig a moat (labourer = untrained hireling = 1 sp/day) or hire some warriors to guard their house while they go exploring (mercenary warriors = trained hireling = 3 sp/day) they are going to expect the money to cover all the expenses fora full day's work.
> 
> ...




Yes they can.  By the same token you can make a nice living (and better than nice) selling quality wooden items or trinkets of your own... As long as you have someone to sell them to.

As I have stated upthread (and on my site in the article discussing the rough draft of the Manor Generator) I figure in the costs of Upkeep of household guards and other workers as above and beyond their wage for this specific reason.  Also do the same for laborers if they are staying at the location (and include kitchen costs, upkeep, etc. into the equations for supporting various levels of upkeep) for this specific reason.  

That's a benefit of being forced away from home.  Per diem is pretty nice, and supplies you with a basic place to sleep and some food.  Want to improve your lot?  Pay for it.

You should definitely check out the Manor Generator.  I have been away for some time due to an injury so I believe there are some updated things I could add to it but I am also working on a mass Market generator for dealing with fluctuating rates for all sorts of objects, a full-year Weather Generator, and a couple of other things to place up online so it is low down on the list.

Slainte,

-Loonook.


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## haakon1 (Dec 20, 2012)

Cleon said:


> D&D campaigns in general do seem to have more money-based economies than existed in the historical periods they pay lip service too . . .
> 
> But think of it from a players' point of view. Say they want to hire some workmen to dig a moat (labourer = untrained hireling = 1 sp/day) or hire some warriors to guard their house while they go exploring (mercenary warriors = trained hireling = 3 sp/day) they are going to expect the money to cover all the expenses for a full day's work.
> 
> ...




Hmmm, I never looked into the self-sufficiency rules or the Crafting for income rules.  I've managed to avoid them so far, and I'll continue to.

I do take the approach, like you do, that the cost of hire listed (1 sp for common laborer) must be the full cost to the employer (PC), with no added extra costs.  

If the food prices don't match, it must be because (waves hands) PC's get overcharged and live well.  They buy everything at Whole Foods, not Costco like the peasants.

If the Crafting prices don't match, it must be because (waves hands) PC's are rock stars, and peasants will over pay for a wooden spoon PERSONALLY made by SIR PAUL MCCARTNEY much more than anonymous Spoons-for-Less product.


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## haakon1 (Dec 20, 2012)

Loonook said:


> you can make a nice living (and better than nice) selling quality wooden items or trinkets of your own... As long as you have someone to sell them to.




Good point.


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## Cleon (Dec 21, 2012)

haakon1 said:


> Hmmm, I never looked into the self-sufficiency rules or the Crafting for income rules.  I've managed to avoid them so far, and I'll continue to.
> 
> I do take the approach, like you do, that the cost of hire listed (1 sp for common laborer) must be the full cost to the employer (PC), with no added extra costs.
> 
> If the food prices don't match, it must be because (waves hands) PC's get overcharged and live well.  They buy everything at Whole Foods, not Costco like the peasants.




Yes, that's pretty much how I resolved it. Either the PCs are supping off luxuries or the merchants are raking in a fortune over-charging them.



haakon1 said:


> If the Crafting prices don't match, it must be because (waves hands) PC's are rock stars, and peasants will over pay for a wooden spoon PERSONALLY made by SIR PAUL MCCARTNEY much more than anonymous Spoons-for-Less product.




A wooden spoon carved by Mordenkainen just makes gruel taste nicer, you know. 

Hmm, maybe some _sustaining spoon_ aren't actually magic, they are just so well Crafted you think that cardboard porridge is actually nutritious...


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## Loonook (Jan 13, 2013)

I have been working on a little system to take into account caravans and delivery of goods using Magical Society: The Silk Road.  So far?  Pretty nice.  I will probably be posting it in the near future to have people knock it around a bit with instructions.

Slainte,

-Loonook.


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## Gilladian (Jan 13, 2013)

looking forward to seeing it!


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## Loonook (Jan 15, 2013)

Gilladian said:


> looking forward to seeing it!




Well gird your loins and be prepared to be mildly disappointed!

The system is pretty simple.  The Random Caravan sheet contains exactly what it says on the tin.  Put in your total carried caravan weight and it will generate a series of up to 19 random goods that are carried at random amounts by your caravan.  It also includes a section that separates gems and precious metals from the total.  It is set to allow up to a random percentage of your total cargo to be carried as gems, jewels, rare alloys, and materials.

The system also includes a Profit Calculator that takes the total caravan worth and calculates a percent based profit for all goods sold based on distance traveled.  Below this is a suggested amount of cash to spend on the daily costs of the Caravan based on a percentage of total profit and available goods in a peaceful, contested, or wartime area.  If you're carrying 50 lbs worth of rare fire opals you would want far more in the ways of protection than a cart of grain.

The totals do not, so far, factor in additional boosts based on current global conflicts, though that is pretty simple to factor yourself based on how much profit you want that Caravan to have.

The second sheet has the full list of trading goods and allows for random generation of chosen goods.  You can remove the randomizer section for weights (Columns O-Q) and calculate your own numbers... Though of course that is the next step .

This sheet has the same functionalities built in as the last one.  Check it out, see what you would like added or subtracted and post!

Slainte,

-Loonook.


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