# Points of Light and the Forgotten Realms



## Jared Rascher (Aug 30, 2007)

I know that there has been a lot of talk about weather the official campaign settings will have any of the flavor of the "points of light" default setting mentioned in many of the designers posts about 4th edition.  While I have seen a lot of logical reasons for why this is only the "default" for 4th edition and individual campaign setting shouldn't be affected, we have also been told that R A Salvatore's _The Orc King_ has some previews of the coming changes for the Realms, so for anyone that doesn't care about spoilers:



Spoiler



The prologue and epilogue of _The Orc King_ are set 100 years into the future of the Realms.  Drizzt mentions that the Spellplague has decimated the Sword Coast, but that Mithril Hall survived the worst of it, even though there was chaos and upheaval all around it. 

It also mentions the Empire of Netheril.

It doesn't mention Silverymoon, Waterdeep, Baldur's Gate, the Lord's Alliance, the Silver Marches, or anything else "civilized" beyond Mithril Hall and the Empire of Netheril.



I get the distinct feeling that the "points of light" approach is definitely being applied to the Realms as well as being used for the default.

I know its not the direction I want to see the setting go.  Others may disagree, or be thrilled, give it a shot for the first time or come back to it.  I'll not say that mine in the superior decision, but at the same time, I thought it might be interesting to those contemplating a switch to 4th edition based on the setting to know ahead of time what might be in store.


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## Mouseferatu (Aug 30, 2007)

Hmm...

You know, speaking _for myself only_... This might be what it takes to get me _into_ FR. I'm familiar with the _basics_ of the setting, but not many of the details. And I've never written for it because, among other things, the notion of trying to catch up on all this history is daunting, to say the least.

But a major shake-up to go along with a jump forward in time might be enough to draw me in.

Now, I'm not saying that's the best way to go. I know FR has a _lot_ of fans as it stands now, and I don't begrudge them that. If FR doesn't change to suit my tastes, well, there are plenty of settings that do.  I'm just saying that _if_ it happened this way (and I'm still not convinced it will), it'd be a good thing _for me_.


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## Jared Rascher (Aug 30, 2007)

I understand that the point of any business venture is to make money, and that even the people that I hang out with online and off aren't indicative of either D&D fans or FR fans as a whole, but it does bum me out and pretty much kills the setting for me.  I'm not saying that they are evil or horrible for doing it, but it does seem a bit like gambling on a greater influx of new people while accounting for fewer leaving the setting, and I'm not sure that betting on getting people into the setting that never liked it is the best way to go, but it may work.

It also seems like the assurances that "Drizzt and Elminster are still there" are the concessions to trying to keep older fans, but to be honest, I'm less worried about those two than I am having Cormyr, Waterdeep, the Dalelands, and the like with their "feel" intact.  That goes way beyond NPCs that very few people in my campaigns over the last 20 years have run into.


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## Mouseferatu (Aug 30, 2007)

Whoah, whoah, you're talking like this is a confirmed, done deal.

To the best of my knowledge, while the jump ahead in time is confirmed, what changes (if any) it'll have on the setting are all just guesswork at this stage. Something not being mentioned in the source you quote isn't the same thing as saying for certain that it's gone. It _might_ be, sure, but I don't think we can _assume_ it is.


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## Jared Rascher (Aug 30, 2007)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> Whoah, whoah, you're talking like this is a confirmed, done deal.
> 
> To the best of my knowledge, while the jump ahead in time is confirmed, what changes (if any) it'll have on the setting are all just guesswork at this stage. Something not being mentioned in the source you quote isn't the same thing as saying for certain that it's gone. It _might_ be, sure, but I don't think we can _assume_ it is.





True, but there were a few other hints here and there, and I fully admit I may be bracing for the worst here (Spoilers):



Spoiler



Mithril Hall was specifically mentioned as surviving, but not the Silver Marches, which I think is probably telling.  Beyond that Rich Baker mentioned that his next set of novels is going to be based in the Moonsea region, and then mentioned his protagonist being from a very small town in that particular region, which seems to fit the "Points of Light." strategy.

Also, there was the very carefully worded comment when people thought that since the Spellplague takes place 10 years in the future that the setting would be starting 4th edition there, and the comment was . . . "no one has said the FRCS is set in 1385," which seems to back up the large jump forward in time.

I wouldn't mind the jump forward with enough "touchstones" to build a bridge  (Elaith being a Lord of Waterdeep, for example, or notes on the Obarskyrs that have sat on the throne for the interim.




I'll still be keeping an eye on things, but I'm just not that hopeful that things aren't heading in this direction.


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## RigaMortus2 (Aug 30, 2007)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> Hmm...
> 
> You know, speaking _for myself only_... This might be what it takes to get me _into_ FR. I'm familiar with the _basics_ of the setting, but not many of the details.




I agree with you...  Are you familiar with the Midnight setting?  Would be interesting if something like that (not necessarily a dark army, just something catastrophic) happened in the FR setting, and then we can go from there.  Think Jericho (the TV show) in the FR setting


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## Shemeska (Aug 30, 2007)

I'll admit that I'm totally digging the 



Spoiler



Empire of Netheril


 development. We'll see where this wild little ride leads.


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## Mouseferatu (Aug 30, 2007)

Morrus, why would you put this on the front page without some sort of spoiler block?! This is a major revelation from the new novels! 

The fact that those of us in the thread are willing to be spoiled doesn't mean every visitor to ENWorld is.


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## Jared Rascher (Aug 31, 2007)

I also just wanted to point out that I was trying to be fairly careful about mentioning what was said in the books and where I was connecting dots, which as Ari has pointed out may be completely off.  I don't have any special knowledge, and pretty much everything that I mentioned can be put together with a few properly worded Google searches, so take my theories with a grain of salt.


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## Morrus (Aug 31, 2007)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> Morrus, why would you put this on the front page without some sort of spoiler block?! This is a major revelation from the new novels!
> 
> The fact that those of us in the thread are willing to be spoiled doesn't mean every visitor to ENWorld is.




Good thinking, Batman.  I've changed it to a link with a spoiler warning.


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## 2WS-Steve (Aug 31, 2007)

I'd enjoy seeing this new take on the Realms and be far more likely to run a game set in it if they switched to a more wild/frontier motif.  I think it'd also do a nicer job justifying the players' role than the sort of default "Elminster and all the other 30th level characters are too busy" justification, which always felt like a backhanded compliment of sorts -- what you players are doing is too insignificant to warrant the big guys' attention.


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## Mouseferatu (Aug 31, 2007)

Morrus said:
			
		

> I've changed it to a link with a spoiler warning.




Thanks.


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## an_idol_mind (Aug 31, 2007)

Meh...while I'm no huge fan of the Realms myself, I think it would be a bad move for WotC to start tailoring the setting to those who don't like it. The setting has been around as a D&D campaign for almost 20 years now, and has been one of the most consistently popular settings out there. To shake up the world drastically in order to appeal to a group of fans that will probably still game in another setting seems counterproductive to me, as it will likely tick off a lot of existing Realms fans.

Although Realms-shaking events seem to be the norm for Faerûn, I'd hope for all the existing fans out there that the land goes into 4th edition mostly intact. If the fans of Driz'zt, Elminster, et al wanted their world torn apart and reassembled into a bleak, post-apocalyptic setting, they'd probably be playing Midnight or something similar.


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## davethegame (Aug 31, 2007)

I like the idea that a new edition brings changes to the storyline (so that your old books now serve as useful guides to a different era, instead of just being outdated) and that immortal/long lived characters are shown being long lived and having changed. And of course you're free to ignore changes in your own game blah blah blah.

But I would find it unfortunate if the change is to make FR line up with the Points of Light default setting. I like PoL, but it seems like setting books should specifically have a different flavor to them that sets them apart in tone from the core setting to give different options.


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## IanB (Aug 31, 2007)

Doesn't the points-of-light thing already apply in large part? I mean, I look at my old 1E Savage Frontier supplement, and that's pretty much what I see.


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## jasin (Aug 31, 2007)

Shemeska said:
			
		

> I'll admit that I'm totally digging the
> 
> 
> 
> ...



For those of us who haven't read any of the relevant books, what development is that, in brief?


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## Irda Ranger (Aug 31, 2007)

*I was wrong*

I'm not sure what the spoiler rules are, so I made the entire post "dark."

I have to admit, I am very surprised by this.  My reading of the "points of light in darkness" default setting was that it was already an accurate description of huge swaths of the Forgotten Realms.  The North, the Moonsea region, the Swords Coast, the Dalelands, etc. are very sparsely populated, and even the Cormyrian country-side (not to mention Amn's ogre invasation, or Tethyr's collapse) are only loosely claimed by the local "authorities."  I figured a simple change in tone, emphasizing the long and perilous rodes between Waterdeep and Silverymoon would be enough to bring FR "within the range" of the acceptable 4e feel.

Man, I hate these world-changing events that totally break the continuity of the settings.  Dark Sun Revised, Dragons of Summer Flame, the Time of Troubles .... nothing good ever comes of this stuff.

I think this is a major mistake on WotC's part ... but I was wrong once, so it's possible I'll be wrong again.

You know what this really means though, don't you?  Now the 3e FRCS is totally "wrong", and no mixing of 3e and 4e materials.  It's just too different.


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## Mouseferatu (Aug 31, 2007)

an_idol_mind said:
			
		

> Meh...while I'm no huge fan of the Realms myself, I think it would be a bad move for WotC to start tailoring the setting to those who don't like it. The setting has been around as a D&D campaign for almost 20 years now, and has been one of the most consistently popular settings out there. To shake up the world drastically in order to appeal to a group of fans that will probably still game in another setting seems counterproductive to me, as it will likely tick off a lot of existing Realms fans.




Thing is... Do we actually know any of this for fact?

Let's be honest. The people at WotC aren't stupid, and they have access to info that we don't. That includes sales figures.

Maybe Realms material _hasn't_ been doing as well as it used to. (I have no idea if this is the case or not; just speculating.) Maybe they feel that the potential rewards of a massive shakeup outweigh the risks. Who knows?


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## JVisgaitis (Aug 31, 2007)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> But a major shake-up to go along with a jump forward in time might be enough to draw me in.




Your not the only one. The Realms is so ridiculous and deep, it would make a lot of sense to do a reboot of sorts to draw new people in. I've always kinda followed the Realms, but its crazy difficult keeping up with the reams of history. Call me VERY interested if this turns out to be the case.


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## AdmundfortGeographer (Aug 31, 2007)

This sounds fantastic. I'm very much looking forward to see how this plays out. It may be enough to spark my enthusiasm all over again for FR like it was from the first boxed set.

Hey KnightErrantJR: Where did you find Rich Baker's comment about the 4e FRCS? Also, where are you getting the info about the prologue and the epilogue?


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## Mouseferatu (Aug 31, 2007)

JVisgaitis said:
			
		

> Your not the only one. The Realms is so ridiculous and deep, it would make a lot of sense to do a reboot of sorts to draw new people in. I've always kinda followed the Realms, but its crazy difficult keeping up with the reams of history. Call me VERY interested if this turns out to be the case.




BTW, apropos of nothing, I need to do some work for you guys one of these days.


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## Jer (Aug 31, 2007)

davethegame said:
			
		

> But I would find it unfortunate if the change is to make FR line up with the Points of Light default setting. I like PoL, but it seems like setting books should specifically have a different flavor to them that sets them apart in tone from the core setting to give different options.




QFT.  The Realms have a particular flavor and cater to a particular fanbase - why mess that up by throwing an apocalypse or some other destruction at the setting to make it more like the implied setting?  Especially when, as folks have pointed out, there are already parts of the setting that actually already are tailored to the idea of the "points of light" campaign design.

I mean, the Realms aren't my thing at all despite how hard I tried to get into them back in the 1e days, but I know that they ARE a thing for a lot of people (IIRC, it's still the best selling setting for D&D, isn't it?).  It just seems like a strange thing to do.


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## Lopke_Quasath (Aug 31, 2007)

Also, don't forget that if FR becomes the new "Living ~" RPGA campaign, this major shakeup would allow the Realms to be broken into manageable chunks like Living Greyhawk was.

Each region may have a "point of light" where the characters come from. Regional adventures happen close to your "point", and Core adventures happen in the "darker" areas.

Or something like that.


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## Dire Bare (Aug 31, 2007)

I think you're all reading waaaaay to much into this prologue and epilogue to "The Orc King".

We know that the "Spellplague" is going to be the next RSE (Realms Shaking Event) from other 4e tidbits.

Moving the setting forward 100 years is by no means a given from what the OP posted, but is a logical type of change for the setting with a new edition.

But just because Drizzt mentions the home of his best friends, and doesn't mention other places, means just one thing.  Jack Squat.

The "points of light" setting is the 4e "core" setting.  And it really isn't all that different from the core setting of 3e (sorta-greyhawk) or the current Forgotten Realms.  A different focus and tone maybe, but not revolutionary change.  I would be very suprised if Wizards "re-imagined" the Realms to the same degree they seem to be "re-imagining" the core D&D setting.


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## Razz (Aug 31, 2007)

Wow...

First 4E is going to kill D&D...and now 4E is going to kill the Forgotten Realms with this stupid 100-year leap. Just...wow.

I can't believe it. Everything about D&D is just being drained away. And they expect it to rise like some great pheonix (does that even exist in D&D 4E now? Maybe it will...with like 2 abilities to make it "dee dee dee" simpler for the retard gamers out there that can't handle 1E, 2E, and especially 3E)

WotC finally did it. They finally ing did it. They're going to attract an ENTIRELY new audience...and making it that much harder for all veterans to switch to 4E. They want us gone and the newcomers in.

It's like they want to start D&D itself all over again and everything with it. I am so appalled by this. If I ever meet any of the members that helped make these stupid decisions...I don't think I could control myself from pummeling them to near death.


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## hong (Aug 31, 2007)

Hi, Razz! Welcome to our spiffy new edition!


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## Jared Rascher (Aug 31, 2007)

As I said above, if its good for sales, or they have evidence that this will drawn in new people, weather or not they loose people like me is kind of irrelevant.  If the gain is more than the loss, it doesn't really matter, and I have no idea how indicative I am of the FR fanbase.

That having been said, yes, there were many regions that would qualify as the "points of light" mindset.  Ironically, much of the area where this would have been applicable was the vast distances between various regions that was eliminated when the 2nd edition maps were revised to be about 1/3 of the old maps, thus making it quicker and easier to get from the Heartlands to other regions.

The problem is, if you leave any stable, happy, civilized nations, someone that does not like the setting will point out this region and not the regions that logically fit the "points of light" theme.  The road between Arabel and Mistledale is dangerous since Tilverton was destroyed?  But Cormyr is still stable, and there are Purple Dragon Knights patrolling, so it doesn't "count" if the region outside it is stable.  Just because the Marsh of Tun, the Farsea Marshes, the Moonsea Ride between the ruins of Tilverton and Mistledale, the Stonelands, or the Thunder Peaks are still dangerous, why, you can still make it from Suzail to Arabel without running into an army of giants, dragons, goblins, and orcs, so it doesn't fit the "points of light" philosophy, which says there are no major cities or patrols, and only the PCs can clear away danger.

Its the same mentality that people that don't like the setting evince when they assume that because Elminster is whatever level he is in the current edition, he must then logically be able to teleport everywhere in Cormyr, the Dalelands, and Sembia to stop every single evil plot, while Khelben, Learal, and Alustrial managed to teleport everywhere in the Sword Coast North to do the same there.

I mean a handful of epic level characters is more than enough to defend a population of 68,000,000, right?

Anyway, that's not even the point.  Several of you are now interested in the Realms that weren't before, so obviously from this little experiment we can see that if we are indicative, they would gain new people, potentially.  Its just kind of sad to me because it feels more like they are creating a new setting, dropping Elmisnter and Drizzt into it, and using the name recognition of the Forgotten Realms.

Spoilers:  



Spoiler



I could easily be wrong, but it does seem strange that all of these things get mentioned along the time that we see the baseline assumption of the 4th edition game.  It would also be strange to have Drizzt writing journal entries from 100 years in the future when it then locks the designers into having to use certain events if the setting doesn't advance that far.



As far as information on _The Orc King_, keep in mind, there are spoilers in these threads:

Lavender Eyes Fansite Thread

ARC Reader's Blog


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## Cthulhudrew (Aug 31, 2007)

WotC rebooted me, and I feel fine.


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## William Ronald (Aug 31, 2007)

A century is long enough to create a lot of turmoil in a continent or a world.  See our own world, and some countries that no longer exist (the Ottoman Empire, the Russian Empire, the Austo-Hungarian Empire), new countries that arose in the aftermath, and other events.

So, if the Relams moves forward a century, there will be changes.  The Empire of Netheril may become a focus of Epic Level action, as Epic Level PCs join with some NPCs to deal with some threats.  Some areas that have become unstable, like Cormyr, may stablilze slightly while other may have new problems.  (For example, I could easily see Thay flying apart if someone kills Szass Tamm -- and Netheril might be the one to do that dead to get rid of a potential rival.)   I hope that whatever setting changes are made to the Realms, that PCs can become heroes. Heck, the Realms may truly be in need of heroes.

Of course, we know little yet, but maybe all the published settings will move forward by a century.


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## Morrus (Aug 31, 2007)

Razz said:
			
		

> Wow...
> 
> First 4E is going to kill D&D...and now 4E is going to kill the Forgotten Realms with this stupid 100-year leap. Just...wow.
> 
> ...




Don't play it, then.  Use your 3.5 books instead.  But please tone down the continuous anti-4E threadcrapping, and, to prevent damage to your health, stay clear of the 4E forum.  Don't worry, pretty much the entire internet is aware of your opinion of 4E by now.

In addition, do NOT use profanity on these boards.


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## Selvarin (Aug 31, 2007)

*Hmmm.....*

It's most definitely pure speculation.

But if the cities of the North were depopulated it certainly isn't the first time.

On the plus side, think of it this way. If there is a 100-year jump then it safely allows current gamers to do what they want without..and be independent of the official timeline. It's a cushion, and from the novelist's standpoint it allows the writer (Salvatore) to be a little more unfettered. He's one of the few FR authors who can write about something so sweeping in the Realms without me cringing. Dwarf names are another matter. I'm still waiting for him to name a dwarven character Hizzy Dizzy Fuzzydump. Or Fizzledoof Fhartwhomp.


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## Selvarin (Aug 31, 2007)

*And by the way...*

...I was reading this on the Wizards' site relating to The Orc King book:

"An uneasy peace between the dwarves of Mithral Hall and the orcs of the newly established Kingdom of Many-Arrows can't last long. The orc tribes united under Obould begin to fight each other, and Bruenor is determined to finish the war that nearly killed him and almost destroyed everything he's worked to build. But it will take more than swords and axes to bring a lasting peace to the Spine of the World. Powerful individuals on both sides may have to change the way they see each other. They may have to start to talk. But it won't be easy."

Combining this with what's been previously mentioned, it sounds like Drizzt is talking about what happened then, almost like we're reading his memoir. It doesn't establish that the timeline will be changed so radically. So Drizzt may be a century ahead, not necessarily the Realms.

The book will be out in September, guess we'll know then.


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## Athenon (Aug 31, 2007)

*Future Realms*

A friend and I talked at length about the potential timeline fast-forward.  A couple points:

- *The mention of an "Empire of Netheril"* I can't imagine R.A. Salvatore throwing something like that in just because the mood struck him.  He's generally gone far out of his way to avoid mixing in politics of anywhere else in the Realms.  I would think that if (as was hinted at Gen Con) the major players in the Realms got together a couple years ago to discuss the 4E changes, Salvatore was either involved or informed of what was coming.  Hopefully this is WotC learning from the Silver Marches/Hunter's Blades inconsistencies.

- *Naming the next Trilogy "Transitions"* This also seems rather deliberate for an R.A. Salvatore book series.  While I suspect that someone else came up with that title for the trilogy, I bet the thrust of the series is transitioning the Realms toward the future and 4E changes.

- *Cleaning up the 3E novel mess*  I'll freely admit that I have done a poor job of keeping up with the Realms novels in the last ten years.  This is partially the reality of being a "grown-up" and having a busy work schedule.  But it's also a lack of interest in many of the novels that have come out.  There certainly have been some great novels that have come out in the last decade, but there have been many that did not entice me to read.  I suspect I'm not alone in this.  A big jump forward in the timeline makes the relevance of these stories and mini-Realms Shaking Events much smaller.  At any rate they can be summarized in the Grand History that will come out next month.  

- *A Different kind of RSE*  There has been nothing as big as the Time of Troubles in the Realms for years in real time, but I've noticed that the changes that have happened since then have made it harder to run campaigns in the Realms.  The retaking of Myth Drannor, large scale war between Cormyr/Evereska/Waterdeep and Shade, the death of Blackstaff and the wars going on in Sembia all make the core areas of the Realms difficult to use in-game even if you are up to date on the Realms novels.  Further, they're hard to predict even if you've read the books since these trilogy cycles can go on for a few years in real time.  A massive calendar reset gets past all these big local changes.  Even though this may be the biggest RSE of all time, it may actually make it easier to run a campaign in the Forgotten Realms.

- *A potentially exciting relaunch of a great setting*  While I have no idea exactly what the WotC folks will do with FR 4.0, I suspect they will advance the timeline well past the Year of Blue Fire.  As was mentioned above, the WotC designers were very sly at Gen Con.  They never actually said that the 4E timeline would be reset to 1385.  They said that a big change would happen in the Realms and that it would be called the Spell Plague.  They also said that the Spell Plague would happen/begin in the Year of Blue Fire.  

I've been a huge fan of the Realms for years.  I love the classic setting.  I also realize that I currently own enough material to run there for the rest of my life.  If anyone doesn't like the changes that WotC likely has in store, it's not like you'll be left wanting for mid 1300's FR lore.  But this sure could be a chance to represent the setting in a way that will make this classic feel fresh.  I really hope the designers deliver on this.
​
We shall see...

Will Maranto


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## mmaranda (Aug 31, 2007)

I think it was also done to facilitate organized play in the FR world.  If you want to run and RPGA campaign there (and WotC does) then it needs to be accessible to people who have read every book and people who have read none of them.  Although I'm a little saddened that this could bring about major changes that disrupt other people campaigns, I've never read the books just the main source book.  I've played games in the realms and been oblivious to a lot of the DMs attempts at showing the subtly of politics there because I didn't know how people were interconnected.

So in the end I think it will be helpful to new entrants and if the authors do there work right not be too jarring to the players that have invest years in this world.

I think it will also help explain why the realms has changed in terms of its magic structure (see end of major Vancian magic trend) and other features in the game.


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## BlackMoria (Aug 31, 2007)

'Points of Light' is a setting philosphy, not a game mechanic. Nowhere have I seen that 'Points of Light' is a requirement of 4E.

I don't get the why for a  'reboot' of the Realms.  It can't be just to re-image the FR to conform to their paradigm for their default setting, because if it is the intent, then expect some Mournland on steriods calamity to hit Ebberon the following year to re-image to a 'points of light' paradigm.

As for changes to better support the RPGA - I hope not.  Living campaigns are favor of the month things - they come and go with regularity and I think it is bad decision making to mess with a campaign setting in a major way for the sake of running a Living campaign for a few years and then on to another Living campaign.

No, there is more to this than meets the eye and no doubt the Orc King is giving us a tiny glimpse of one piece of the picture puzzle and we are all guessing what the picture is from that one glimpse.

Realms fans should not jump off the cliff just yet.


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## ChaosShard (Aug 31, 2007)

Actually, we don't know where Drizzt has traveled in the time between the end of _The Orc King_ and the Epilogue. 

***Spoilers for _Unclean_ by Richard Byers also contained here, starting in the second block of text.***

He may not have strayed too far east or south of the Silver Marches, especially if Netheril returned (let's assume that Netheril is somewhat hostile and has outriders patrolling a wide area outside their recognized borders, that may have kept him away from the Cormyr/Sembia/Dalelands region). Or, more simply, Salvatore didn't mention them because he was told not to/wasn't given any idea what condition they were in. 

Thay is in play here also, since by the end of _Unclean_, Szass Tam has plunged the nation into a full-blown civil war, with him and several tharchions on one side and the other zulkirs and two tharchions opposing him. If he loses and survives (it's book 1 of 3, book 2 comes out in spring and book 3 in '09), Szass may re-found/restore/ally with the newly risen Netheril, if for no other reason than to survive the wrath of his former compatriots. With the ending of the book, however, Szass seems to have the upper hand, if only marginally. 

But, let's do a little speculating on the Dales, while we're here...

Myth Drannor is restored, two Chosen live there (but only Old El' is safe from the chopping block). The Elves may or may not protect/ally with them, depending on relations and/or what they have going on in Cormanthor. My completely uninformed guess is that the Dales survive, but are more harried than before. Based on that assumption the Dales/Moonsea area might be the default "Points of Light" area for PCs to start in, perhaps with other themes in the different regions.

Just a guess, but hey, we'll find it all out in a year... 

Any thoughts? 

Am I completely mad?  

Edited 1st line to add "Actually" because it reads better


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## Jack99 (Aug 31, 2007)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> Hmm...
> 
> You know, speaking _for myself only_... This might be what it takes to get me _into_ FR. I'm familiar with the _basics_ of the setting, but not many of the details. And I've never written for it because, among other things, the notion of trying to catch up on all this history is daunting, to say the least.
> 
> ...




I agree. In 2e I was a hardcore Realms freak, owning everything published from the setting, and running most of my campaigns in FR, but in 3+e, i have  barely bought anything aside from the campaign book and a few more, and none of my campaigns have taken place there.

This change, if it really happens, could do it for me.


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## Athenon (Aug 31, 2007)

Very interesting Kheris...


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## AdmundfortGeographer (Aug 31, 2007)

BlackMoria said:
			
		

> Living campaigns are favor of the month things - they come and go with regularity and I think it is bad decision making to mess with a campaign setting in a major way for the sake of running a Living campaign for a few years and then on to another Living campaign.



What the heck are you  talking about. Living campaigns with _strong_ support last for many years, *not* a few. Living Greyhawk started in 3.0 and continued through 3.5 for a total of 7 and a half years when it ends in mid 2008. Living City went even longer than that. I think you are confused with something else, maybe the D&D Campaigns model like Mark of Heroes or Green Regent or Xendrik Expeditions? Compare Living FR with Living City and Living Greyhawk.

And Eberron won't need a cataclysmic change. The _extreme_ dispersement of the population already conforms to that major aspect of "points of light". A simple timeline advance where teritorial control by the major nations has degraded inside their borders allowing bandits or other bad guys to fill the void is all that would be needed.


----------



## hong (Aug 31, 2007)

I'm in two minds on this issue. On the one hand, it would be cool to see what they could do, given the opportunity to give FR a total makeover. On the other hand, any makeover is unlikely to be _that_ total, since there'll still be elements that they can't drop without making it not FR anymore (fluff is much more important when you're talking about an actual setting instead of an implied one).

Also, if they _do_ make FR conform to this new points-of-light thing, it'll be playing in the same space as any new setting they might otherwise release specifically for 4E. And I'm not sure that I wouldn't much rather have a completely new setting, free of legacy issues.


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## BlackMoria (Aug 31, 2007)

> What the heck are you talking about. Living campaigns with strong support last for many years, not a few. Living Greyhawk started in 3.0 and continued through 3.5 for a total of 7 and a half years when it ends in mid 2008. Living City went even longer than that. I think you are confused with something else, maybe the D&D Campaigns model like Mark of Heroes or Green Regent or Xendrik Expeditions? Compare Living FR with Living City and Living Greyhawk.




Excuse my sweeping generalization then.  My point being, making wide ranging and enduring changes to a campaign setting to accomodate a Living campaign that WILL end at some point for another Living campaign is a bad idea, if that is the intention of the changes to the campaign setting.



> And Eberron won't need a cataclysmic change. The extreme dispersement of the population already conforms to that major aspect of "points of light". A simple timeline advance where teritorial control by the major nations has degraded inside their borders allowing bandits or other bad guys to fill the void is all that would be needed.




I can make the same argument for the Realms.  About 85% of the Faerun landmass is points of light already and the remaining 15% can be the made the same way without turning the whole campaign setting on its ear.  

Simply, the Realms doesn't need to be nuked from orbit to make a 'points of light' campaign.  I can do that already without alternating a single thing just by changing the locality of where I start my campaign.

My point is - we are missing the big picture here and there is more to this than simple mashing campaign settings into a 'points of light' paradigm.


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## ChaosShard (Aug 31, 2007)

BlackMoria said:
			
		

> I can make the same argument for the Realms.  About 85% of the Faerun landmass is points of light already and the remaining 15% can be the made the same way without turning the whole campaign setting on its ear.
> 
> Simply, the Realms doesn't need to be nuked from orbit to make a 'points of light' campaign.  I can do that already without alternating a single thing just by changing the locality of where I start my campaign.
> 
> My point is - we are missing the big picture here and there is more to this than simple mashing campaign settings into a 'points of light' paradigm.




Quite true. 

My hope is that _if_ (we still don't know what will really happen) they wreck the Sword Coast that other areas will have fared better, maintaining the traditional Realms "feel". 

Playing a Baldur's Gate-focused game where the city is in a state of siege from monsters/bandits/whathaveyou could be great fun, but I don't really want to see that _everywhere_. If my previous post seemed that way, please forgive me, as I meant it to be more of a thought exersize.


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## delericho (Aug 31, 2007)

About 18 months ago, I started to get the feeling that the Forgotten Realms might be on the way to being retired, as much of the setting felt 'played out'. Additionally, I wasn't sure just what WotC were going to do with the setting in 4e - the existing setting books are in some ways _too_ good, such that without some sort of Realms-Shaking Event it would be very difficult for them to sell new books, as that would largely mean reselling the same material again.

So, I'm not particularly surprised by this move.

Since I am by no means a FR fan, I will refrain from commenting on the change itself, save to note that I won't be buying into the 'new' FR... any more than I bought into the 'old' FR in any significant way.


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## Athenon (Aug 31, 2007)

Moria,

I don't think it's a simple thing either, but I don't accept the idea that they're doing just for a "Living" Campaign.  There seems to be a good bit of care and thought here (particularly in regard to 4E).  If they really did orchestrate all these changes 2 years ago with peripheral (freelance) game designers like Ed Greenwood then they've been very deliberate in what they're doing.  I think this goes beyond the importance of the RPGA.


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## Banshee16 (Aug 31, 2007)

Razz said:
			
		

> Wow...
> 
> First 4E is going to kill D&D...and now 4E is going to kill the Forgotten Realms with this stupid 100-year leap. Just...wow.
> 
> ...




Razz, I can see where you might be concerned....but I think this is a little too "the sky is falling".  All we've got is a kernel of information from a *novel* that doesn't necessarily say anything about what they're doing with the game line. 

Even stating that they're not moving the setting to 1385 doesn't mean anything.  It could mean the timeline will be at 1384, or 1386.  Just not 1385.

Really, we don't know much of anything right now.

I don't think these people are stupid.  There is the chance that in their excitement for something new, they accidentally go too far.....but again, it's just a possibility.  They have lots of market research behind them, so maybe they know they have to blow FR up to try and save it from going on hiatus, or maybe it's going to be more of the same.  The point is, nobody really knows......for now.

Banshee


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## Kaodi (Aug 31, 2007)

I'm not really into FR, other than some of the novels, but I have some thoughts about the timeline jump and the " Spell Plague " . 

It seems rather odd that the Spell Plague would happen 10 years after the current canon, and then have the new version of the campaign setting start 90 years after that. If they were going to do that, why not have the Spell Plague set 1 to 2 years after the current canon date, so that people who still want to use their 3e FR fluff can play through the Spell Plague era by extrapolating the effects on the setting now, instead of adding in 10 years of extra fluff before it happens? I think it would make more sense if the new base time is more like 10-20 years after the Spell Plague, instead of 100.


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## DarthDiablo (Aug 31, 2007)

I'm an old Realms fan from the old "Grey Box" days.  I didn't like the shift in direction with 2nd Edition (way more political) & by the time 3rd came out the Realms lost it's sense of mystery to me.  I really like the "Points of Light" theme.  That's how I felt about the Realms the first time I read it.  Characters like Elminster & the Knights of Myth Drannor were few & far between.  Because of all the Novels written for the Realms, it became oversaturated and lost its dark & mystical appeal.

While I'm not a big fan of "Realm-Shaking" changes like the Time of Troubles, an overhaul may be just what the setting needs.  Change is good in the overall scheme of things.  I'm not very upto date on Realms-lore, so please bear with me if my comments are out-to-lunch. 

If Netheril returns i am assuming it will be ruled by the Shades/ArchWizards.  Just for once in the Realms lore the bad guys are actually winning!  As someone else posted earlier, it would be a great palce for Epic Level campaigns.  Lower level stuff could be in the Dalelands/Western Heartlands as they traditionally were in 1st Edition.  As for Myth Drannor, I remember it as being a great setting for mid to high level characters to go looting.  Now it's reclaimed?!?  Someone please enlighten me.  

Decimating the entire Sword Coast?  Sounds like a bad idea to me.  The Savage Frontier used to be about Points of Light-the City States-surrounded by all sorts of darkness.  Monsters, barbarians, evil organizations & fell magic haunted every corner of the North once you left the city gates.  Has 3rd Edition really bloated FR to the point it needs a reboot?  I suppose if they kill off many of the Mid to High level NPCs it will make the realms more Player friendly.  I guess we'll just have to wait & see what WOTC have in store.  I just hope they bring back Kara-Tur.


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## ChaosShard (Aug 31, 2007)

Kaodi said:
			
		

> I'm not really into FR, other than some of the novels, but I have some thoughts about the timeline jump and the " Spell Plague " .
> 
> It seems rather odd that the Spell Plague would happen 10 years after the current canon, and then have the new version of the campaign setting start 90 years after that. If they were going to do that, why not have the Spell Plague set 1 to 2 years after the current canon date, so that people who still want to use their 3e FR fluff can play through the Spell Plague era by extrapolating the effects on the setting now, instead of adding in 10 years of extra fluff before it happens? I think it would make more sense if the new base time is more like 10-20 years after the Spell Plague, instead of 100.




I see what you're saying, but the SpellPlague may be a more insidious, long term problem than a nuke. 

What if the plague persists for 80 or 90 years, wiping out powerful casters over time, to the point where the magical infrastructure (I'm looking at _you_ Halruaa!) can no longer be maintained and areas reliant on it slip into a dark age, almost akin to western Europe around 500 CE? Certainly, if places like Candlekeep survived you wouldn't have lost _all_ of that knowledge (wow... Lorehunters working for Candlekeep in this setting? Sounds like a nice campaign ), but many regions would be hard-hit, and people would hesitate to take up the Art for fear of the plague (commoners and other superstitious folk may blame "mundane" plagues on the Spellplague, perhaps even hunting Arcanists, and blaming them for the infections), even if it hadn't been seen in 10 or 20 years. 

That would explain a 100 year jump and the ceding of ground to monsters, etc.

Or, of course, we may see a Realmslore article a month from now talking about how the Spellplague came and went in 5 years and it's now 1385 (remember, they never said that the campaign _didn't_ go forward 10 years, only that they didn't _confirm_ that point ).


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## Agamon (Aug 31, 2007)

Rich Baker just killed this thread.


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## DarthDiablo (Aug 31, 2007)

Quote:Originally Posted by Rich Baker's Blog

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wow, I'm sort of surprised -- more people were reading than I thought. It looks like I stirred up a real hornet's nest with my comments on the work I'd recently done on devils.

For those of you worried about mashing succubus and erinyes together... I do think there's room in the game for both a fury and a succubus. The problem is, erinyes have rarely been depicted as furies (ironic, given the name of the monster). Even in 3.5--about the most fury-like depiction of the monster in a long time--erinyes have charm monster at will. It's their iconic shtick, really. That's the sort of thing we would like to improve on. 

One quick point of clarification I'd like to make... Don't assume that we're going to apply the 'Points of Light' conceit to existing campaign worlds. I think Realms and Eberron would prosper if they got just a little more points-of-lightish, but we're not going to overthrow worlds with that much breadth and history.


Sounds like the Realms are safe................for now.


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## ChaosShard (Aug 31, 2007)

Agamon said:
			
		

> Rich Baker just killed this thread.




Sounds like a good balance... And yes, I'm basing that on 4 lines of text. 

Honestly, as fun as speculating can be, I'm really glad that he said something before heads truly began exploding.

Here's to hoping that they don't disappoint!


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## delericho (Aug 31, 2007)

Kaodi said:
			
		

> It seems rather odd that the Spell Plague would happen 10 years after the current canon, and then have the new version of the campaign setting start 90 years after that. If they were going to do that, why not have the Spell Plague set 1 to 2 years after the current canon date, so that people who still want to use their 3e FR fluff can play through the Spell Plague era by extrapolating the effects on the setting now, instead of adding in 10 years of extra fluff before it happens? I think it would make more sense if the new base time is more like 10-20 years after the Spell Plague, instead of 100.




It could well be that the Spell Plague is an absolutely devastating event, such that campaigns set just after it would essentially be post-apocalyptic. So, they advance the timeline a further 90 years to give the people of the world some time to gradually rebuild, and bring the campaign 'back' to a feel that is not too dissimilar to the Realms as they currently are, with a touch of "Points of Light", and with significant surface detail changes.

I don't think Wizards would really want to fundamentally alter the Realms to make it something it's just not - better to start a new setting than do that. At the same time, they probably don't want to leave it _quite_ the same, because people won't just rebuy all the same stuff.

Obviously, just one possibility out of many...


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## Dm_from_Brazil (Aug 31, 2007)

*The "Days of Future Past" possibility*

< First post ever at EnWorld! >

Well, there IS another (very interesting) possibility: that this "Realms of the Future" may not come to be - that, in a sense, this is like the "Days of Future Past" storyline form the X-Men comics, the classic "imperfect future", that come to be by actions (or inactions) from the people of the present. 

And what this has to be with the Realms? Well, if you read well, you´ll perceive that no Drizzt, no Elminster nor any of the "Great and Powerful" of the Realms were able to stop the coming apocalypse (let´s admit: it IS an apocalypse - how one´s call the decimation of the Sword Coast and the rise of a new Netheril Empire?) - but can´t the actions of the simple PCs CHANGE this dark future?

You see, THIS were always one of the big troubles of the Realms as a setting: your character was a mere witness to the world shaking/world saving actions of the many Chosen of Mystra (and other powerful heroes and villains). But if ONLY the actions of your character can change the world (as we know that EL & Co. wasn´t able to save the Realms). 

With that "Drizzt Profecy" you introduce an element of menace and urgency that was lacking ("Save the Realms? Nah, that´s business to Kelben Blackstaff and all this power-houses..."), and shifts the center to the player characters, who must act now on, so the "Dark Realms" don´t come to be - hey, I think I´m going to call my first 4ed Realms character John Connors!

Ok, so it´s only a possiblity, but with Rich Baker saying that they " are not going to overthrow worlds with that much breadth and history", it´s a VERY PLAUSIBLE theory - and one that makes the Realms better too (i.e. this PC-centric point of view is considered one of the strengths fo the Eberron setting).


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## tylerthehobo (Aug 31, 2007)

Dire Bare said:
			
		

> I think you're all reading waaaaay to much into this prologue and epilogue to "The Orc King".
> 
> We know that the "Spellplague" is going to be the next RSE (Realms Shaking Event) from other 4e tidbits.




Gotta agree - didn't the third Drizzt trilogy jump ahead about 15 years or something, if I remember right?  All while the D&D timeline stayed closer to where it had been at the time of troubles.  Who's to say the Salvatore isn't doing the same thing again?  

WWEGD?  What would Ed Greenwood Do?


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## Piratecat (Aug 31, 2007)

Dm_from_Brazil said:
			
		

> < First post ever at EnWorld! >



Welcome.


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## JVisgaitis (Aug 31, 2007)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> BTW, apropos of nothing, I need to do some work for you guys one of these days.




You need to drop me a line then. When we start working on our 4e stuff for next Gencon, I'll be looking for a few good writers.


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## Selvarin (Sep 3, 2007)

Just a snag from Salvatore's site:

The Orc King: Transitions, Book One 
R.A. Salvatore. Wizards of the Coast, $27.95 (352p) ISBN 978-0-7869-4340-1

Celebrating his 20th year as one of Salvatore's most popular Forgotten Realms characters, dark elf Drizzt Do'Urden whirls into action in this first installment of a new trilogy. As the Year of Wild Magic arrives in the Silver Marches, bloody conflicts rage between Mithral Hall dwarves, Kingdom of Many Arrows orcs, Moonwood elves and Silverymoon wizards. Recently widowed barbarian Wulfgar must wade through the political morass to undertake a life-changing journey, aided by Drizzt's brave wife, Catti-brie. Meanwhile, archeologists are unearthing an ancient city where orcs and dwarves once lived side by side in peace. Drizzt and dwarven king Bruenor Battlehammer wonder if such peace can be achieved again, but half-orc/half-ogre Grguch, King Obould VI of the orcs and angry dark elf Tos'un Armgo won't go down without a fight. Salvatore mixes neatly choreographed battles with philosophical musings from self-styled “renegade soul” Drizzt, lending a little depth to an otherwise straightforward hack-and-slash adventure. Author tour. (Oct.)

Further reinforces (in my mind) that while Drizzt may be writing a century after the events, the events themselves are closer to current Realmsian time. Of course, I'm not too keen on the orc-and-dwarves-in-a-lovefest thing but anyhow...


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## Khairn (Sep 3, 2007)

I'm a huge Midnight fan and actually do like the "points of light" campaign flavor that WotC is introducing.  But, in retrospect the previous meta-plots like Time of Troubles, lead to some real problems with FR, and I'm not certain that such a dramatic change will be so readily accepted by the majority of the FR gamers.

Sometimes the concept of breaking something just to have change is not necessarily the best idea.


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## Mortellan (Sep 3, 2007)

This is all very exciting to watch develop.


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## RigaMortus2 (Sep 5, 2007)

I have it on good authority that the default setting for 4E will be The Empire of Izmer (from the D&D Movie).


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## Jared Rascher (Sep 8, 2007)

Alright, now we can all be on even footing discussing this . . . 

The Orc King Sample Chapter

I think that its a bit strange to have such wide ranging comments if this isn't the set up for the new FRCS, and I also think its another reason to be a bit dubious of WOTC promises, i.e. Points of Light not really applying to the Realms.


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## Irda Ranger (Sep 8, 2007)

Rich Baker said:
			
		

> we're not going to overthrow worlds with that much breadth and history.




But ....



			
				The Orc King said:
			
		

> “I have ventured outside of the Silver Marches,” Drizzt said, “have you? I
> have witnessed the death of once-proud Luskan, and with it, the death of a
> dear, dear friend, whose dreams lay shattered and broken beside the bodies of
> five thousand victims. I have watched the greatest cathedral in the world burn
> ...




Either Rich Baker does not conform to the common usage of English of "not overthrow", or he doesn't know what he's talking about.  There's  chance that RAS just wrote all that on a lark, and no one at WotC editing objected to it .... but I don't think that's too likely.

The common phrase defining chaos and change is 'cats and dogs, living together.'  Elves, Dwarves and orcs standing as allies?  Orcs standing for law and peace, defending the last outposts of 'civilization'?  That's even stranger.  In fact, it's unrecognizable to me.


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## Jared Rascher (Sep 8, 2007)

I'm just glad there isn't any evidence of D&D becoming more like Warcraft.  I mean, for that you would have to have orcs that get along with other races . . .   

Hm . . . I wonder if Thay is going to end up being populated by not entirely evil undead as well?


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## William Ronald (Sep 8, 2007)

KnightErrantJR said:
			
		

> I'm just glad there isn't any evidence of D&D becoming more like Warcraft.  I mean, for that you would have to have orcs that get along with other races . . .
> 
> Hm . . . I wonder if Thay is going to end up being populated by not entirely evil undead as well?





It does seem that the Realms will go through some turmoil, but we still don't know when the next Realms campaign book will be set.

I can easily see Thay falling into civil war, or Mulhorand and Thay fighting a war that leaves each other in pieces.  (This would mirror some aspects of Egyptian history, which is fitting for Mulhorand.)

So, the books may present what is a "Dark Realms" future independent of the next campaign book or may preview it.  The Realms have not been presented as going through a long term crisis, so doing so for the campaign book might work.

Some of the favorite places and NPCs could remain.  I would argue that part of the problem Elminster faces besides being powerful is that he was introduced as the Sage of the Realms and not one of the heroes.  Also, there would be a ready explanation why Alustriel, Elminster, and several others aren't out doing the things the heroes are doing.  If they are alive, they are probably trying to keep some portion of the Realms relatively safe.


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## an_idol_mind (Sep 9, 2007)

Who's to say the contents of that book isn't just foreshadowing a possible future, rather than the official canon for the 4th edition Realms?

I will say, though, that if the Realms get that big an overhaul, then the setting's fans are going to be screwed on an even bigger scale than the fans of Greyhawk, Mystara, and Dark Sun...


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## 2WS-Steve (Sep 9, 2007)

Irda Ranger said:
			
		

> Either Rich Baker does not conform to the common usage of English of "not overthrow", or he doesn't know what he's talking about.  There's  chance that RAS just wrote all that on a lark, and no one at WotC editing objected to it .... but I don't think that's too likely.
> 
> The common phrase defining chaos and change is 'cats and dogs, living together.'  Elves, Dwarves and orcs standing as allies?  Orcs standing for law and peace, defending the last outposts of 'civilization'?  That's even stranger.  In fact, it's unrecognizable to me.




That's an interesting section.  I wonder to what extent someone like Salvatore guides the structure of the Realms, and to what extent he follows it.

I'd imagine that WotC does and should let their most popular writers take the lead in this regard -- after all, the reason they're popular is that they somehow tap into what readers find appealing about the fiction.  But I'm curious to what extent -- for instance, if that story does match the new points of light setting concept, did the story lead the FRCS change, or the FRCS change lead the story?

Also, I know they've got other stars as well.  Does anyone have an idea of how the various authors break out?


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## Dice4Hire (Sep 9, 2007)

I have to admit the thought of FR as a magical wasteland does have some appeal............

If FR is kicked back about three orders of magnitude on the power and overreaching plots scales, I might become interested in it.

Which it might in 4E

I am looking at it


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## Ghostwind (Sep 9, 2007)

tylerthehobo said:
			
		

> WWEGD?  What would Ed Greenwood Do?




That is an interesting point. I plan on asking Ed the next time I talk to him (assuming he can answer). I may not be able to tell anyone but at least I'll know.


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## BlackMoria (Sep 9, 2007)

Here is another quote  for the sample chapter that is revealing.



> His perspective and memories of that time a hundred years gone, before the
> rise of the Empire of Netheril, the coming of the aboleths, and the discordant
> and disastrous joining of two worlds




Rise of Netheril suggests that the return of the city of Shade is a foreshadowing of some sort of victory of the Shadowvar.  Perhaps the Spellplague only affects Weave users, which might be the reason the Shadowvar became ascendant.

Coming of the Aboleths.... some sort of aboleth invasion?

Discordant and disastrous joining to two worlds?  Is a figurative or literal event?  World as in two different cultures or is it more literal, as two different physicalities joining?  

I'm sorry but the words of Rich Baker and the limited information gleaned from the sample chapter of the Orc King are at odds.  Looks to me like the big campaign world reset button was pushed. 

"...we're not going to overthrow worlds with that much breadth and history."


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## William Ronald (Sep 9, 2007)

BlackMoria said:
			
		

> Here is another quote  for the sample chapter that is revealing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Well, one could perhaps say that the coming of the Shade could be considered a joining of the two worlds.  However, it may mena something else.


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## Jared Rascher (Sep 9, 2007)

BlackMoria said:
			
		

> Here is another quote  for the sample chapter that is revealing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





I'm kind of thinking that perhaps because we have been assured that Drizzt and Elminster are still around, that that counts as "preserving" the setting.  To tell you the truth, for what I enjoy about the world I'd be less upset if Elminster and Drizzt were gone but Sembia, Thay, Mulhorand, Luskan, Waterdeep, Cormyr, etc were left alone.  Heck, even the 100 year future jump could have been interesting if they hadn't decided to decimate so much of the Realms.


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## Jared Rascher (Sep 9, 2007)

William Ronald said:
			
		

> Well, one could perhaps say that the coming of the Shade could be considered a joining of the two worlds.  However, it may mena something else.




Spoilers for the Twilight War series:



Spoiler



In the Twilight War series, the Shadowstorm was just invoked, which is basically a big old gate to the Plane of Shadows, whereupon the animals near the gate were changed into "umbral" creatures and most of the living souls in Ordulin were killed by shadows . . . I'm thinking that this might have something to do with the "joining," but hey, they could have done something even more devastating in the mean time.


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## Jared Rascher (Sep 9, 2007)

2WS-Steve said:
			
		

> That's an interesting section.  I wonder to what extent someone like Salvatore guides the structure of the Realms, and to what extent he follows it.
> 
> I'd imagine that WotC does and should let their most popular writers take the lead in this regard -- after all, the reason they're popular is that they somehow tap into what readers find appealing about the fiction.  But I'm curious to what extent -- for instance, if that story does match the new points of light setting concept, did the story lead the FRCS change, or the FRCS change lead the story?
> 
> Also, I know they've got other stars as well.  Does anyone have an idea of how the various authors break out?





Many of the Realms authors have said before that the "big" parts of the plot are dictated to them.  They get hired to write a trilogy about X, and they show how things get from Y to X, so to speak.  

So Troy Denning was told to kill off Azoun and bring the city of Thultanthar  (Shade) back, Richard Lee Byers was told to write a story about a new Rage of Dragons, etc.  The metaplot isn't the author's purview.

I'm betting the main body of the book, and perhaps some of what happened to the Silver Marches, was RAS idea, but the rest was most definitely planned out by the powers that be.


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## Jared Rascher (Sep 9, 2007)

Dice4Hire said:
			
		

> I have to admit the thought of FR as a magical wasteland does have some appeal............
> 
> If FR is kicked back about three orders of magnitude on the power and overreaching plots scales, I might become interested in it.
> 
> ...





See, this is what I don't get.  Its no insult to you, and I know not every setting appeals to every person, but in order to get you interested in the setting, they have almost made it unrecognizable to me, who has been faithfully following it for 20 years.  Perhaps they know something I don't, but it seems like a big risk to bank on a gain/loss ratio that has to do with gaining fans that were never interested in the setting before.


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## Mad Mac (Sep 9, 2007)

Wow. I mean, there's changing a setting, and there's blowing up the world. That's a very bold move on Wizards part, to say the least. I have to admit though, as someone who's always been lukewarm on the realms, it makes me a little interested, if only to see what they change. 

  On the Salvatore side, looks like he's finally been given a chance to do something a little different with Drizzt...fast foward 100 years, use one novel to give a rundown to what happened to all his friends and how they lived and died, close up all the remaining plot hooks and character bits, and start fresh. To a point, anyway. He's still stuck writing the same character, but he does get to wipe out the supporting cast built up over a dozen books and put him in a different setting.


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## Jared Rascher (Sep 9, 2007)

Mad Mac said:
			
		

> Wow. I mean, there's changing a setting, and there's blowing up the world. That's a very bold move on Wizards part, to say the least. I have to admit though, as someone who's always been lukewarm on the realms, it makes me a little interested, if only to see what they change.
> 
> On the Salvatore side, looks like he's finally been given a chance to do something a little different with Drizzt...fast foward 100 years, use one novel to give a rundown to what happened to all his friends and how they lived and died, close up all the remaining plot hooks and character bits, and start fresh. To a point, anyway. He's still stuck writing the same character, but he does get to wipe out the supporting cast built up over a dozen books and put him in a different setting.




Ironically, the one positive I saw in this sample chapter is that Drizzt is a little more pissed off and cynical, which is a nice change from a guy that's constantly second guessing himself and having long internal monologues about how much faith he has in his friends and the hearts of others, etc.


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## WarlockLord (Sep 9, 2007)

Wow...the destruction of the good drow (thought that was a FR sacred cow), the death of the gods (another sacred cow)...aboleths...Netheril...

This will be very, very cool.


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## William Ronald (Sep 9, 2007)

WarlockLord said:
			
		

> Wow...the destruction of the good drow (thought that was a FR sacred cow), the death of the gods (another sacred cow)...aboleths...Netheril...
> 
> This will be very, very cool.





I don't think that the gods will die, but may be a bit more distant than they have been in the past -- assuming these changes happen.  

Many of the good drow could have been destroyed, but some coulld exist as remnants. Drizzt may learn of some and seek them out and bring them to the safety of the Silver Marches. (Never assume a character who narrates events know everything.)

One alternative for the merging of two worlds would be if someone opened up gates and ended up merging parts of another world with the Realms and possibly some locales changing places.  This would be more than enough to create a lot of chaos.  (This may also create theological turmoil if the new people to the Realms brought in their own deities.  It might take a long time for some of the gods of the Realms to adjust and their may be a reluctance to interfere directly after so much damage.0

(Possible narrative from someone besides Drizzt, in this case, imagine an eladrin wizard narrating.  Okay, just doing this for our amusement as we know that WotC will be using some real world mythology and legends to draw on.)

"Sadly, Netheril was not the only place which attempted magic that was beyond their power or control.  The war between Thay and Mulhorand reached its peak in an attack that Mulhorand thought that they could counter.  However, it was not enough, and the magics blended in a horrifying way, devastating parts of both lands.  The Mulhorandi called on their gods, and their gods answered."

"The devastation spread like a wave, opening up rifts between Toril and another world.  Villages and cities vanished to be replaced by forests, swamp or even cities from tht world.  Or villages and cities were  utterly destroyed as parts of that world fell on them. The inhabitants of that world were utterly confused as they found themselves in a strange and shattered land called Faerun.  Strange horrors disturbed the Underdark, leading many to flee -- to the surface."

"The gods of the newcomers also apparently heeded their prayers, and many voices were raised in supplication and fear.  I remember, a tribe of Uthgardt barbarians were battling giants that had appeared in a village.  A tribe of the newcomers saw the battle and a paladin of Tyr called out his god's name.  Some of the warriors of this tribe shouted the name Tyr and other strange gods besides, and joined the battle and a village was saved.  That was one of the few days of joy  in many years of pain."

"Now, the gods seem reluctant to intervene, perhaps fearing that their mighty hands might damage a wounded world.  Still, I have seen those who have called on their faith to aid them, and some have journeyed from afar to help Toril in its time of need.  To quote an old friend dead many years, 'They have their work cut out for them.' " 

"Cormanthor was hit heavily, and the followers of Ellistrae were slain or fled.  Some still live, in hiding or hiding their faith.  May they endure.  May those islands of civilization and peace that remain endure amid a rising sea of perils."


"Faerun has been through much this century.  Some heroes fell, sacrificing their lives so th at others could live, and new ones emerged.  Yet, at this time, the world is still in need of heroes.  Whether you and those dear to you are native to Toril, or are among those who came here in an age of sorrow, the world has need of you.  May it be said that you proved worthy of the challenge of our age.  The choice is yours: to seek to save or damn Toril or to follow your own path.  Choose wisely, as the world is watching."

(Okay, incredibly corny, but hopefully someone might like it.)

One thing I would like to see in the Realms are examples of characters from different classes, perhaps even a few who interact as an adventuring party or allies.


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## Jared Rascher (Sep 9, 2007)

Regarding the good drow and Eilistraee  (Spoilers for the Lady Penitent Trilogy):  



Spoiler



Eilistraee and Lolth are playing a big cosmic game, and so far Vhearaun, Selvetarm, and Kiaraunsalee have been killed off.  Eilistraee absorbed Vhearaun and took on some of his aspects and some of his worshipers, and it looks like either she will defeat Lolth, become corrupted by the power she absorbed from the other gods, and become a new Lolth, or at the last minute the power that has corrupted Eilistraee will fail her and Lolth will win.


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## William Ronald (Sep 9, 2007)

KnightErrantJR said:
			
		

> Regarding the good drow and Eilistraee  (Spoilers for the Lady Penitent Trilogy):
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Either way, the good drow might have a rough time and some tough decisions to make.  Based on this, I would argue that any Realms supplement set 100 years ahead of the current campaign date should expect some significant changes.

Thanks for the news, KnightErrantJR!!!


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## freyar (Sep 9, 2007)

Wow, I'd been hoping that those spoiler pages were just someone's idea of a bad joke.  I'm too tired to write clearly about it now, but I'd be very sad to see so much of Realmsian civilization collapse.


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## Dire Bare (Sep 9, 2007)

an_idol_mind said:
			
		

> Who's to say the contents of that book isn't just foreshadowing a possible future, rather than the official canon for the 4th edition Realms?




I'm pretty sure this is the answer.  While the post-apocalyptic Realms described in the preview to "The Orc King" sounds very interesting and cool, I really doubt Wizards plans on "blowing" up the setting to this degree.

All of the RSEs (Realm Shaking Events) put forth so far in the novels and the books never changed the fundamental nature of the Realms, despite the "global" nature of the plots.  When all the dust clears and the "Transitions" series is over, I expect no different.  Sure, some minor gods might remain dead (drow pantheon excepting Lolth), and some borders might crawl around, and certain factions might become stronger or weaker (Shade, Kingdom of Many Arrows, Silver Marches), but the Realms will remain quite recognizably the Realms.

Don't worry Chicken Little, the sky is certainly not falling.  But let's have a glimpse into an alternate future where it did!!!


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## Jared Rascher (Sep 9, 2007)

Dire Bare said:
			
		

> I'm pretty sure this is the answer.  While the post-apocalyptic Realms described in the preview to "The Orc King" sounds very interesting and cool, I really doubt Wizards plans on "blowing" up the setting to this degree.
> 
> All of the RSEs (Realm Shaking Events) put forth so far in the novels and the books never changed the fundamental nature of the Realms, despite the "global" nature of the plots.  When all the dust clears and the "Transitions" series is over, I expect no different.  Sure, some minor gods might remain dead (drow pantheon excepting Lolth), and some borders might crawl around, and certain factions might become stronger or weaker (Shade, Kingdom of Many Arrows, Silver Marches), but the Realms will remain quite recognizably the Realms.
> 
> Don't worry Chicken Little, the sky is certainly not falling.  But let's have a glimpse into an alternate future where it did!!!





So to give us a glimpse at a possible future they spoil three ongoing trilogies?  They pretty much spell out the Twilight War, Lady Penitent, and perhaps a bit of the Haunted Lands Trilogies.  

I'd love to be wrong, but they have actually been saying since _before_ they announced 4th edition that a big "preview" of the direction of the Realms would be seen in the new Drizzt novel.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Sep 9, 2007)

William Ronald said:
			
		

> One thing I would like to see in the Realms are examples of characters from different classes, perhaps even a few who interact as an adventuring party or allies.



One might even say such heroes would become iconic in the new Realms ...


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## mhacdebhandia (Sep 9, 2007)

Razz said:
			
		

> with like 2 abilities to make it "dee dee dee" simpler for the retard gamers out there



Quoting Ned "Carlos Mencia" Holness? Wow, you really *rule*, man.

Where's that rolleyes smiley?


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## William Ronald (Sep 9, 2007)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> One might even say such heroes would become iconic in the new Realms ...





It would also give some hooks for player characters, who might be inspired by a cleric, a warlord, a wizard, or other hero, and realize that maybe they can work with each other and make their own history in the Realms.   (As the first setting published by WotC, having a few heroes that can serve as examples might be useful -- especially for new players.)

Also, even if a lot of the Realms is in an uproar, the place is LARGE enough for some civilized areas to remain -- whether it is a city state like Waterdeep, the Silver Marches, or Cormyr.  (Meanwhile, I suspect one thing we might have here and there would be pockets of civilization unaware of each other.  For all Drizzt might think that all the good drow are dead, there may be a large community of them separated from him by about a thousand miles of territory.)  Some of the changes might be for the better from the current setting.  (For example, Cormyr could have strenthened to be an island of stability -- stable enough to wish the Silver Marches well and maybe even exchange ambassadors and have some trade  but not near enough to help them with major problems.)

Mind you, I think this speculation will probably lead to more people anticipating the next FRCS book.


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## Irda Ranger (Sep 9, 2007)

William Ronald said:
			
		

> I suspect one thing we might have here and there would be pockets of civilization unaware of each other.  For all Drizzt might think that all the good drow are dead, there may be a large community of them separated from him by about a thousand miles of territory.



Yes.

This is how they described the whole "points of light" feel in the first place. There can be villages just over "that line of hills" which no one has heard from in years.  People don't travel much.  "Once safe trails have given in to wilderness."

I got the feeling in recent FR materials that most civilized places were aware of the 'big events' going on in other areas. Merchants and travelers brought news far and wide.  I think that will cease to be the case.


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## phadeout (Sep 9, 2007)

Wow... I've been out of the FR loop since 3E came out... I've played in the realms from the Grey Box all the way through till just before 3E (basically when the Sharn/Shadovar stuff started to happen, read the first book on it).

Also, I post very little on ENworld, but have been lingering due to the 4E stuff (which doesn't interest me much btw).

What does interest me is to see what's happened in the Realms, and man... this is just crazy.

I've always liked the "darker" campaign settings, where the PCs NEED to be the heroes.  It sounds like FR is going in this direction.  But I also say this, I doesn't appeal to me AT ALL.  A constant moving storyline in a campaign setting is why I stopped playing in the Realms.  So what about when 5E comes out?  There will be another major Realms event?  This isn't anywhere near what the Avatar trilogy did to the Realms.  I could live with that event.  But this just isn't the Realms anymore from the sounds of it.  They'd be better of Re-Releasing the Grey Box with 4E stats... (well, maybe not).  I don't know how to feel about this but I do know one thing... If I want a Points of Light in a Dark World setting - I already have it.

Midnight by Fantasy Flight Games.  Also, the best thing about this setting, I never have to worry about the Timeline moving.  It's set at ONE spot, and WILL NEVER move.  It's part of the design philosophy and it's the one reason I buy this setting.  Every other setting I've ever known (including settings from other non-WOTC RPG publishers - cough cough - Coalition - cough) the moving target Timeline is the most annoying thing they can do to a setting.

If they want to redo the realms 100 years in the future... Great.  I guess they need to do "something".  So do it.  But do yourselves a BIG favor.  From now on, stop moving the Timeline.  Else, you're going to loose all the new fans you get, eventually.  That's why I'll not buy into a new setting like this, because that's what it is, a new setting.

I can already play in the 4E version of FR, I'll just pull out my FR Grey Box...


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## AdmundfortGeographer (Sep 9, 2007)

After reading the prelude, I'm even more excited for 4e FRCS. Seriously. If that hints at the state of affairs accurately, I'm jumping all in! I'm probably even going to jump back into the Realms novels again, starting with this one.

Suh-weeet . . .


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## Dire Bare (Sep 9, 2007)

KnightErrantJR said:
			
		

> So to give us a glimpse at a possible future they spoil three ongoing trilogies?  They pretty much spell out the Twilight War, Lady Penitent, and perhaps a bit of the Haunted Lands Trilogies.
> 
> I'd love to be wrong, but they have actually been saying since _before_ they announced 4th edition that a big "preview" of the direction of the Realms would be seen in the new Drizzt novel.




I'm sure the "Transitions" series, of which "The Orc King" is the first, will "transition" the Realms from 3e to 4e just like the "Avatar" trilogy did for the 1e to 2e jump.  A lot of stuff happened in that series, but at the end of the day things weren't all that different.

I also have no doubt that events that happened, will happen, and have been hinted at in various Realms novels (such as the Lady Penitent series, the Twilight War series, and more) are leading up to the "Spellplague".

I'm sure that that the events in "Transitions" will have this apocalpytic "alternate future" Realms as a possible endpoint, but at the very end of the series the heroes will save the day and save the Realms and we'll have our traditional setting back.

It will be different, maybe in some cool and fundamental ways.  But in the end, not all that different, really.

That's my bet!  We'll just have to wait and see!


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Sep 9, 2007)

Dire Bare said:
			
		

> I'm sure that that the events in "Transitions" will have this apocalpytic "alternate future" Realms as a possible endpoint, but at the very end of the series the heroes will save the day and save the Realms and we'll have our traditional setting back.
> 
> It will be different, maybe in some cool and fundamental ways.  But in the end, not all that different, really.
> 
> That's my bet!  We'll just have to wait and see!



I suspect you're right. Drizzzzt is just setting up the worst case scenario that the non-PC heroes will have to prevent from coming to pass.


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## Dice4Hire (Sep 9, 2007)

KnightErrantJR said:
			
		

> See, this is what I don't get.  Its no insult to you, and I know not every setting appeals to every person, but in order to get you interested in the setting, they have almost made it unrecognizable to me, who has been faithfully following it for 20 years.  Perhaps they know something I don't, but it seems like a big risk to bank on a gain/loss ratio that has to do with gaining fans that were never interested in the setting before.




Yeah, it is a hard way to go, isn't it. I understand where you are coming from, and I have no problem with 4E giving FR a big piece of the pie, as long as it is not the default setting. It is just for me, the way the realms are now makes me not want to set games in the world.

I will not go into why as it has been hashed out a hundred times before.


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## Sunderstone (Sep 9, 2007)

To start, Ive been a fan of FR since the grey box. I gave up FR this past year (even though I still buy FR sourcebooks to keep my collection going) and returned to Greyhawk for a few reasons.
1) I was tired of all the super hero NPC's running amok in the setting. Even average shopkeepers felt like retired archmages and warlords.
2) I was tired of all the novels changing canon every other day.


That  said, Im kind of excited about a possible "reset" of the realms. I just wish they would have done this a long time ago for 3.5.

I think the current ideas/rumors about the changes in store for FR will be great if WotC doesnt alter canon too much with novels anymore, and maybe lose a few super powered folks in the process.
Another welcome change would be to reduce the number of deities as well. There are way too many.

Never thought Id say this but this is the only part of 4E I will probably like if it's well executed. It would at the least get me interested in the setting again.


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## The Grumpy Celt (Sep 9, 2007)

Dire Bare said:
			
		

> Don't worry Chicken Little, the sky is certainly not falling.  But let's have a glimpse into an alternate future where it did!!!




I wish I could believe that, I truly do.  

It seems counter intuitive that WotC would turn the setting into a proverbial train wreck (including demolishing whatever the PCs accomplished during their games) in an effort to draw more people to the setting (your characters only get to clean up the mess, how much fun is that, man?). Also, Drizzt’s monologoues have always been written at some point in the future – maybe they are all part of his memiours published ‘round about 1480 D.R.

I wish I could believe that, I truly do.  

But because it seems the product of dubious thinking (namely a poorly thought out plan to get money), something of a slap in the face to long-time fans, an attampt to fix something that is not broken, I think this will happen to the setting. And everyone will go with it because, well, its official.

This is, afterall, the state of affairs that produced 4E, the introduction of 4E and so forth and so on.

Such is the way the real world works.


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## phadeout (Sep 9, 2007)

Well, it's easy enough for me... I stopped buying FR when 3E came out.  So my timeline will be where 2E left off.

The thing that really erks me is when the "take over" published material for the DM.  Like Myth Drannor... that's my favorite High-Level adventure for the Realms, but then "it gets reclaimed?"  They need to stop writing history for the Realms... hope they fix that in the 4E Realms.  Doesn't mean I'll ever touch it, but, at least those that get into will have that hope.


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## AdmundfortGeographer (Sep 9, 2007)

If advancing the setting is a slap in the face of fans, FR has been doing this since the first novels came off the presses with Doug Niles' Moonshaes series. The Time of Troubles once before took away PCs' accomplishments. Sembia was once designated as a preserve for DMs to make it whatever they wanted, then that rug was pulled out from under folks when they changed their mind and decided to make an official Sembia. And it has been a longtime complaint of the setting that PCs only get to clean up after NPC mover-and-shakers get done with things. It's not new.

And, IMO, it is only an issue if someone feels the need to keep their Forgotten Realms inline with everything newly published. Its only an issue for folks who aren't comfortable putting up a wall around their own version of FR. I think that is clearly a minority of fans of every setting be it FR or Greyhawk or Eberron or whatever.

WotC would like folks to move up to 4e, they aren't sending in the SWAT teams to make gamers do it. WotC would like existing FR-fans to come along with the 4e FRCS, but they aren't going to arm twist people into doing it. There is enough material published out there now that people can keep playing 3.x FR, just like when 3e came out there was enough material out to keep playing AD&D 2nd ed FR.

Personally, even with 3.5 books coming out for FR, I still set my personal FR in 1358. I just reversed-engineered things.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Sep 9, 2007)

phadeout said:
			
		

> Well, it's easy enough for me... I stopped buying FR when 3E came out.  So my timeline will be where 2E left off.
> 
> The thing that really erks me is when the "take over" published material for the DM.  Like Myth Drannor... that's my favorite High-Level adventure for the Realms, but then "it gets reclaimed?"  They need to stop writing history for the Realms... hope they fix that in the 4E Realms.  Doesn't mean I'll ever touch it, but, at least those that get into will have that hope.



Why? The 2E material doesn't catch fire and burn up. Creating new events and new resources means it's ALSO available, not that it replaces what was. Lots of people play at different points in the timeline, and through the magic of PDFs and used bookstores, especially over the Internet, any choice in the timeline is viable.


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## The Grumpy Celt (Sep 9, 2007)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> The 2E material doesn't catch fire and burn up.




Of course it won't. But people will buy these new books - and WotC will read into that a moral and material victory - while the old ones will ever increasingly be out of date and be obsolete. So this treatment of the fans becomes the rule of the land.



			
				Eric Anondson said:
			
		

> If advancing the setting is a slap in the face of fans, FR has been doing this since the first novels...




Yes, but this is doing it at a new level. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I'm too old and tired to go for this kind of thing, where someone metaphorically kicks me in the balls, takes my milk money and then I'm supposed to say "Thank you sir can I have another."


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Sep 9, 2007)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> Of course it won't. But people will buy these new books - and WotC will read into that a moral and material victory - while the old ones will ever increasingly be out of date and be obsolete. So this treatment of the fans becomes the rule of the land.



So what? People play at different points in the timeline. Heck, that's probably why the Grand History of the Realms was greenlighted.

Who gives a crap about "moral victories?" Are you still playing at the point in time that you enjoy?


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## grimslade (Sep 9, 2007)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> Of course it won't. But people will buy these new books - and WotC will read into that a moral and material victory - while the old ones will ever increasingly be out of date and be obsolete. So this treatment of the fans becomes the rule of the land.
> Yes, but this is doing it at a new level. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I'm too old and tired to go for this kind of thing, where someone metaphorically kicks me in the balls, takes my milk money and then I'm supposed to say "Thank you sir can I have another."




The Forgotten Realms Setting getting new materials is a kick in the balls? Ask the Planescape, Dark Sun and Known World fans fans how they like having nothing published. Or even better the blackmail of "buy Expedition to Greyhawk Ruins or they will never publish anything Greyhawk again". At least the Realms has a choice between supporting the new stuff or sticking with the old stuff. Horrible WotC, to support their most popular setting. The sheer evil of their mind/wallet control making millions buy the novels. Dirty, dirty heathen monkeys that they are. Pardon me I have run out of hyperbole, maybe everyone could spare some of theirs.

The whole of Abeir-Toril has been covered in source books. Unless something big happens there is no impetus to buy a new splat. How many different versions of Waterdeep and the North are there? 4? 5? How different are they? Not much, except stats. With The Grand History being released there is more info out there for playing FR than at any point of its 20+ year history. Blow the setting up and write some new material rather than cribbing from old splats. I think Ed Greenwood's campaign runs as if the ToT never happened. We could emulate Ed. Pick a point and go from there.

Personally, the future of the Realms revealed in the prologue looks a heck of a lot like the old Grey box setting in 1E. I loved 1E FR. I am excited about the setting getting a tweak. Maybe the villains will be a threat to be opposed versus chumps to be knocked down. The Realms will need every Super-Novel-PC and all the home game PCs to fight for the good of Faerun. Sounds good like an FR campaign to me.


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## Sunderstone (Sep 9, 2007)

Eric Anondson said:
			
		

> If advancing the setting is a slap in the face of fans, FR has been doing this since the first novels came off the presses with Doug Niles' Moonshaes series. The Time of Troubles once before took away PCs' accomplishments.




I disagree. Doug Niles original Moonshae Trilogy didnt alter much at all. Matter of fact I was surprised with the second trilogy taking place years later. These novels were a perfect companion to the setting IMHO. It gave you the feel of what it was like to be in the Moonshaes and left it intact for you to mess with.



			
				Eric Anondson said:
			
		

> Sembia was once designated as a preserve for DMs to make it whatever they wanted, then that rug was pulled out from under folks when they changed their mind and decided to make an official Sembia. And it has been a longtime complaint of the setting that PCs only get to clean up after NPC mover-and-shakers get done with things. It's not new.




I also remember when they said Sembia was left for DMs to use, etc. This was a major gripe I had with the Realms getting too crowded with super hero NPCs.




			
				Eric Anondson said:
			
		

> WotC would like folks to move up to 4e, they aren't sending in the SWAT teams to make gamers do it. WotC would like existing FR-fans to come along with the 4e FRCS, but they aren't going to arm twist people into doing it. There is enough material published out there now that people can keep playing 3.x FR, just like when 3e came out there was enough material out to keep playing AD&D 2nd ed FR.




The atmosphere was what made FR great back with the grey box. IMHO, too many canon alterations from the novels ruined that feel. Even worse is that the heroes of the novels are still around in the games setting sourcebooks. 
Why couldnt the novels just be novels for the most part with maybe a "Realms Shake Up" occurring only rarely? This would lead to less super heroes running around every area you want to develop further without having to come up with cheesy explanations to "well why cant we get try to get some help from Drizzt, its his neighborhood too" or "why is it every time we stroll through the Dales, Elminster just happens to be out worldwalking?"



			
				Eric Anondson said:
			
		

> Personally, even with 3.5 books coming out for FR, I still set my personal FR in 1358. I just reversed-engineered things.




Thats fine for you. Not so much for me. 
I liked FRs "original" atmosphere and open endedness, and changing things every time Joe writes a new novel isnt much fun. The "FR Completist" in me makes me research what happened in the novels I never wanted to read. From there I have to keep tons of papers/text files on what I want to keep from the new altered canon of the novels I had no interest in.

The Silver Marches used to be my favorite area (even before it was known by that name). Now from RAS Drizzt books, its barely recognizable and too busy of an area for me to want to work in.

In a way, I like the fact that they might be "rebooting" the already destroyed FR (thats my current opinion of FR and im entitled to it), but if the novels following 4E are only going to do the same thing again.... well, it will be worthless to me.

A perfect campaign setting is one with just enough open endedness to make you want to springboard your own campaign. Not one that feels like you have to play in someone elses campaign or you have to erase (or "reverse-engineer") parts of canon.

Do settings evolve? sure.  Make more sourcebooks for every area or make new areas/continents/kingdoms. Maybe one shakeup every few years. Not with every novel that someone writes.

So yeah, WotC isnt sending SWAT teams out, but unless they change the way they do things (which I doubt) the reboot wont have much value.


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## Sunderstone (Sep 9, 2007)

grimslade said:
			
		

> Horrible WotC, to support their most popular setting. The sheer evil of their mind/wallet control making millions buy the novels. Dirty, dirty heathen monkeys that they are. Pardon me I have run out of hyperbole, maybe everyone could spare some of theirs.



This will go along way in the civility dept.  :\ 

I personally dont care how many millions WotC makes. Im all for the reboot, but if the novels kill the setting for me and maybe alot of others all over again, whats the point?

Based on the RAS tidbit, its the same dog show, just that they are washing the dog this time around.


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## Arashi Ravenblade (Sep 9, 2007)

I kind of like the idea of a points of light type things in FR. Though with all the super characters running around and super groups i wonder what happens.


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## phadeout (Sep 10, 2007)

> A perfect campaign setting is one with just enough open endedness to make you want to springboard your own campaign. Not one that feels like you have to play in someone elses campaign or you have to erase (or "reverse-engineer") parts of canon.




Exactly like I said.  If they want to shake up the Realms, fine.  But they need to stop the Novels + Splat books = Timeline junk.  Then I would have respect for a 4E version of the Realms.  To know it's finally back in the DM's hands.



			
				Arashi Ravenblade said:
			
		

> I kind of like the idea of a points of light type things in FR. Though with all the super characters running around and super groups i wonder what happens.




I just think this is a funny conversation... Grey Box D&D WAS points of light in darkness.  Hell, if you weren't in Waterdeep, you were in "the Wilderness" and the wilderness was full of bad stuff with know  one out there to help you.


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## William Ronald (Sep 10, 2007)

Arashi Ravenblade said:
			
		

> I kind of like the idea of a points of light type things in FR. Though with all the super characters running around and super groups i wonder what happens.





I suspect not all would survive the years intact.  There might be examples of heroic sacrifices, with some great heroes mourned and respected for their deeds -- inspiring new heroes.  Some groups may splinter, disband or be destroyed or even merge with other groups.  New groups may emerge, perhaps with specific causes or interests beyond mere survival.

At this point, no one knows what will happen to the Realms.  However, I imagine that a LOT of thought is going into it.  We will know in little less than a year.


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## Green Knight (Sep 10, 2007)

Nevermind that if it is set 100 years in the future, a lot of those characters will be dead and buried simply due to old age. Humans, Half-Elves, Halflings, Half-Orcs, would all be dead from old age.


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## Dire Bare (Sep 10, 2007)

grimslade said:
			
		

> Or even better the blackmail of "buy Expedition to Greyhawk Ruins or they will never publish anything Greyhawk again".




I know you are intentionally throwing around a lot of hyperbole, but are you serious with this statement?

WotC never stated or implied any sort of "blackmail" with Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk.  One of the authors stated that WotC was looking at the release of this product as a test for potential interest in Greyhawk products.  Not their only reason for releasing it by a longshot, and a far cry from, "Buy this product or else!  It's cement overshoes for Greyhawk here!"

You may or may not be sorta joking here, but I've seen this sentiment spring up before and it just boggles me the ignorance of it.


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## grimslade (Sep 10, 2007)

Dire Bare said:
			
		

> I know you are intentionally throwing around a lot of hyperbole, but are you serious with this statement?
> 
> WotC never stated or implied any sort of "blackmail" with Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk.  One of the authors stated that WotC was looking at the release of this product as a test for potential interest in Greyhawk products.  Not their only reason for releasing it by a longshot, and a far cry from, "Buy this product or else!  It's cement overshoes for Greyhawk here!"
> 
> You may or may not be sorta joking here, but I've seen this sentiment spring up before and it just boggles me the ignorance of it.




Sorry for the sidetrack: The fact is that other than the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer at the very beginning of 3.0, Expedition is the only other product published for the Greyhawk setting by WotC. 7 years between products is not exactly strongly supporting the setting. I think Forgotten Realms published more than two products over the course of 3.X. I never heard an FR author say buy this book to send a message. Oh wait, one did. I can't remember who but it was to push for more fluff/crunch ratio in FR books. Not really the same tho. 

My point in this whole exercise is that the only way Forgotten Realms stays in one static form forever is if the setting is retired like Planescape, Spelljammer, Dark Sun and now Greyhawk. They could be resurrected at anytime, well you need true res for Dark Sun and Spelljammer.
Unfortunately, the novel side of FR brings in much more bacon than the RPG side. Yes, they do support each other, but the large number of FR novel readers don't buy RPG books. The CS is now an add-on to the novel line.


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## freyar (Sep 10, 2007)

Well, there's a lot being said in all these posts, so I'll only add what others aren't already saying.  My question:

If the core setting is going to be "points of light," shouldn't the other settings be alternatives to points of light?  Something for people who like a different kind of campaign?  Or is the idea that FR will be representative of the default setting and Eberron will be the different one?  I am a little confused about that.

*Edit:* I've just started a thread and poll here on a more general discussion of settings, but I think it applies to the FR discussion quite a bit, potentially.


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## The Grumpy Celt (Sep 10, 2007)

grimslade said:
			
		

> The Forgotten Realms Setting getting new materials is a kick in the balls?




No. A new book on, say, Cormyr is not a kick in the pants.

A new book that is (Forgotten Realms)x(Rifts)/(World of Darkness)=(New Forgotten Realms) _is_ a kick in the pants.


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## Fobok (Sep 10, 2007)

I haven't read the preview chapter yet, so I won't comment on that. But I have to say that I really don't understand why the timeline advancing is so upsetting to people. It's Forgotten Realms, it's always done that. Time of Troubles, anyone? It's not exactly a new thing. Thus, if you like Forgotten Realms, you should be used to it by now. If you like Forgotten Realms at one particular point of time? Play in that time period. Veer off into your own timeline. If the players at your table don't want to do that, you might want to work with them to come up with a campaign all will enjoy, rather than trying to force them into your viewpoint.

As for me, I *love* that Forgotten Realms continues to advance. That's what keeps me interested in the setting. If they suddenly stopped advancing, or started ignoring the events of the novels, I'd probably stop buying the products. (Forgotten Realms products are the only ones I've bought since 3.5 came out since I'm just, in general, interested in the setting, even if I haven't had a game to play.)


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## Dire Bare (Sep 10, 2007)

Fobok said:
			
		

> I haven't read the preview chapter yet, so I won't comment on that. But I have to say that I really don't understand why the timeline advancing is so upsetting to people. It's Forgotten Realms, it's always done that. Time of Troubles, anyone? It's not exactly a new thing. Thus, if you like Forgotten Realms, you should be used to it by now. If you like Forgotten Realms at one particular point of time? Play in that time period. Veer off into your own timeline. If the players at your table don't want to do that, you might want to work with them to come up with a campaign all will enjoy, rather than trying to force them into your viewpoint.
> 
> As for me, I *love* that Forgotten Realms continues to advance. That's what keeps me interested in the setting. If they suddenly stopped advancing, or started ignoring the events of the novels, I'd probably stop buying the products. (Forgotten Realms products are the only ones I've bought since 3.5 came out since I'm just, in general, interested in the setting, even if I haven't had a game to play.)




As amusing as all the bellyaching is to me as well, you should really read the prelude to "The Orc King" that we're all talking about.  If this "future" Realms comes to pass (and that's a big IF in my opinion), the changes are totally post-apocalyptic and are very drastic.  Much more so than any other novel/RPG event/timeline jump EVAR!


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## Dire Bare (Sep 10, 2007)

grimslade said:
			
		

> Sorry for the sidetrack: The fact is that other than the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer at the very beginning of 3.0, Expedition is the only other product published for the Greyhawk setting by WotC. 7 years between products is not exactly strongly supporting the setting. I think Forgotten Realms published more than two products over the course of 3.X. I never heard an FR author say buy this book to send a message. Oh wait, one did. I can't remember who but it was to push for more fluff/crunch ratio in FR books. Not really the same tho.




Well, in one sense, there were no "Greyhawk" products released for 3rd edition, or at least nothing with the Greyhawk logo.  The Living Greyhawk Gazeteer, the D&D Gazeteer (which hardly counts as a separate product), and the Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk are certainly the only 3rd Ed D&D products "specifically" about Greyhawk (that I can remember).

But we also got a lot of Greyhawk support in Dragon and Dungeon Magazines, which while not a WotC direct product, were WotC licensed and official products.  Also, the "implied" setting of the entire game was Greyhawk, at least at first.  Later it did morph to the "sorta-but-not-Greyhawk" which we are gonna see more of in 4e.

However . . . so what?  Some folks act like it's WotC's duty to put out official Greyhawk products on par with FR and Eberron releases.  Why?  I mean, sure it'd be cool and all.  But the level of hostility I've seen on the boards regarding "lack of Greyhawk support" astounds me sometimes.

Also, noone associated with "Ruins of Greyhawk" or WotC ever said or implied, "Hey, if you don't buy this book, you'll never see an official Greyhawk product again."  One of the authors WAS ASKED directly by a fan if the release of "Ruins" meant a return of official Greyhawk support.  The author's answer was basically, "too soon to tell" and that this product was, in part, testing the waters.  I wish he'd never said that, because sooooo many have taken it out of context and exaggerated the meaning.

Like it as not, Greyhawk just isn't that popular.  It's the original setting, it is cool, but it just ain't all that popular.  Takes a backseat to the Realms, Dragonlance, and probably even Eberron.  Why would WotC pour major resources into a relatively unpopular setting, no matter how cool and "iconic" it is?

Having said that, WotC does have a Greyhawk forum in their 4e section of Gleemax.  This implies they are at least considering releasing official 4e Greyhawk material . . . we'll see.

My favorite setting is Mystara, from the OD&D Basic and Expert boxed sets (and beyond).  Talk about no support!!!  But I'm okay with that.  I just steal the good ideas from the current products and use them in my own Mystara campaign!


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## an_idol_mind (Sep 10, 2007)

Fobok said:
			
		

> I haven't read the preview chapter yet, so I won't comment on that. But I have to say that I really don't understand why the timeline advancing is so upsetting to people. It's Forgotten Realms, it's always done that. Time of Troubles, anyone? It's not exactly a new thing. Thus, if you like Forgotten Realms, you should be used to it by now. If you like Forgotten Realms at one particular point of time? Play in that time period. Veer off into your own timeline. If the players at your table don't want to do that, you might want to work with them to come up with a campaign all will enjoy, rather than trying to force them into your viewpoint.
> 
> As for me, I *love* that Forgotten Realms continues to advance. That's what keeps me interested in the setting. If they suddenly stopped advancing, or started ignoring the events of the novels, I'd probably stop buying the products. (Forgotten Realms products are the only ones I've bought since 3.5 came out since I'm just, in general, interested in the setting, even if I haven't had a game to play.)




The Time of Troubles was a 10 year jump that combined with the Horde. The 3rd edition Realms, for all their big events, has advanced at 2 years of game time per 5 years of real time, or thereabouts. That's a pretty significant difference than a 100-year jump that destroys most of the civilizations of the Realms and kills off most of the NPCs. *If* WotC does that, they're basically taking the things current fans love about the Forgotten Realms and throwing them right out the window.


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## Tharen the Damned (Sep 10, 2007)

Apocalypse in the Realms?

Well, aside from the few hints in Salvatores Book, there might be some other, more technical and financial reasons:

1) 4th Edition will be a new Edition not an update. The designers more than once stated, that it is very difficult to transfer PCs from 3x to 4th. It would be equally difficult to transport the hundreds of major and lesser NPCs over from 3rd and give a reason, why their abilities are now different then they were before (eg. Obould will most likely be a Monster without class levels and therfore different to the Obould we see now).
It is easier to kill off most of the Iconics and start only with a few well loved (and cheesy) NPCs like Drizzt and Elminster.

2) As was said before, the Realms are mostly explored and many products from all editions cover the same ground (the North, Waterdeep and Undermountain for example). Cleaning the slate and starting with new empires and organisations give stuff for many new Books. 
A 100 year time jump gives enough history and background for these new cities, empires and organisations. 10 years or less would not be enough time for the Realms to develop significantly new structures.

3) New Players and DMs. Just look at the endless supply of Books for the Realms. As a new Player or DM the richness and deepness of the Setting can overawe.
Cleaning up the Realms and starting anew with a big timejump gives newbees  an incetive to jump the train. Suddenly the old published material is only OPTIONAL and not any more assumed canon.

Even if this may irk many of the older fans, IMO from a selling point of view an apocalypse in the Realms makes sense.


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Sep 10, 2007)

Put me in the pro-armaggedon camp.

I'd really love to see this happen.  

I just don't think there's any richer setting for a deconstruction.

Nor a safer one, with it's huge history any player can play in any flavor of realms they prefer.  Adding this one just puts one more course in for the meal.


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## Samuel Leming (Sep 10, 2007)

This Forgotten Realms one hundred years later (FR100yl) could be a good idea. At least from a publisher’s standpoint.

In the Forgotten Realms as they are now, what’s left for them to detail?  This isn’t completely a rhetorical question.  People say WotC has poked into every corner, but I really don’t know.  Given that there’s nothing new to really explore in new setting books, what can they  publish?  Setting specific adventures?  Booklets updating NPC stats to 4th edition? Updated NPC stats could be a good additional feature for DnDInsider, but cranking out books full of them would seem to be a limited publishing strategy.

If not a substantial reboot, what new FR supplements should WotC publish after 4e?

The FR100yl reboot would allow them to review and revisit every area of FR with new material.  They’d also be able to address many of the common problems non-FR fans have had with the setting.

WotC will have to look at how many sales they’ll gain from new customers versus how many they’ll lose from disgruntled FR fans.  If they can distill enough FR flavor while jettisoning most of the baggage blocking new customers, this could be a win for them.

Setting the 'Event' ten years forward in their current timeline but ninety years before their reboot could be an interesting choice.  If WotC supports their 3.5 FR material with online updates it would make it easier for groups in current FR campaigns to just keep playing, either ignoring the reboot or eventually playing through the event.

Sam


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## Ruin Explorer (Sep 10, 2007)

Samuel Leming said:
			
		

> WotC will have to look at how many sales they’ll gain from new customers versus how many they’ll lose from disgruntled FR fans.  If they can distill enough FR flavor while jettisoning most of the baggage blocking new customers, this could be a win for them.




Unless the 4E realms is truly a "travesty", they'll lose about four customers in the long run, I suspect.

I'm a long-term FR fan, and I think this is a very good idea. The 2E and 3E Realms have filled up, frankly, with a lot of stupid crap. Stupid overpowered NPCs, stupid overpowered monster collectives that make no sense, just plain illogical stuff, and places that have near-zero "adventuring value", like Cormyr. The Forgotten Realms, is, at it's heart a very D&D setting - it's a world with multiple layers of forgotten cultures/empires, with more ruins to explore than you possibly ever could, and it's seen empires and kingdoms rise and fall constantly.

Having a few of the current kingdoms and cities fall is not going to "ruin" the setting or "destroy it's flavour" - not at it's core. What it is going to do, potentially, is take it back to more of it's 1E flavour, rather than the distinctly fruity mid-2E stuff, or the overdetailed, organisation-obsessed 3E nonsense.

Anyway, Ruin Explorer supports more ruins to explore, obviously. If those runs are the ghost-haunted ruins of Waterdeep, all the better! Maybe we can kick around Khelben's skull, or fight his lich or something? That'd be nice


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## humble minion (Sep 10, 2007)

Having read the sample chapters (and assuming that they accurately represent 4e FR, since I can't imagine what Salvatore thinks he's playing at otherwise), I'm really not a fan of the whole business to be honest.

According to my taste in campaign settings, there's a fair bit wrong with the current Realms, I have to admit.  Too disorganised, too many epic-level NPC heroes about the place, too many drow and subraces of elves, the most silly and hard-to-take-seriously set of evil gods going around, and - the big one - FAR too damn many massive setting upheavals detailed only in the novel lines.  I'd think twice about running a game there, and even if I did give it a go, I'd be staying far, far away from the overdone 'core' regions of Cormyr, the Dalelands etc.  A bit of creative reorganisation was indeed probably in order.

But from what I've gathered from the sample chapters, the changes have been so vast and massive that it's hard to see the Realms any more.  Make no mistake, if even a third of what Drizzt goes on about in this chapter comes to pass in the campaign setting, this reboot makes the Avatar trilogy look like small bikkies.  We're more talking something of the scope of the Dragonlance Chaos War, or one of the other innumerable setting reboots that have tortured poor old Krynn over the past decade or so.  And we all know _exactly_ how successful they have been.

I hope i'm not going off prematurely here (Premature formation of an opinion?  On a messageboard?  I am shocked - shocked!  ), but I'm a little worried that in the effort to points-of-lightify FR, WotC runs the risk of making FR not very much resemble FR any more.  Sure, you can keep the place names, and Drizzt might still be around, and it's hard to see Larloch going anywhere, but the Realms have a very distinct feel to them, and this may be harder to preserve.  It occurs to me that if WotC wanted a showcase setting for 'points of light' they'd have been better off actually sitting down and writing one from scratch, rather than hammering FR (in all its eccentric, lighthearted, hail-fellow-well-met, kitchen-sink glory) into what seems to be a very awkwardly-fitting mould.

I hope i'm wrong, of course.


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## Tharen the Damned (Sep 10, 2007)

humble minion said:
			
		

> I hope i'm not going off prematurely here (Premature formation of an opinion?  On a messageboard?  I am shocked - shocked!  ), but I'm a little worried that in the effort to points-of-lightify FR, WotC runs the risk of making FR not very much resemble FR any more.  Sure, you can keep the place names, and Drizzt might still be around, and it's hard to see Larloch going anywhere, but the Realms have a very distinct feel to them, and this may be harder to preserve.  It occurs to me that if WotC wanted a showcase setting for 'points of light' they'd have been better off actually sitting down and writing one from scratch, rather than hammering FR (in all its eccentric, lighthearted, hail-fellow-well-met, kitchen-sink glory) into what seems to be a very awkwardly-fitting mould.
> I hope i'm wrong, of course.




I think you are right humble minion. I only own some FR products and read through some of the Books but even I can see that these Realms won't be the old 1ed/2ed/3xed any more.
The feel of the few pages of the new Salvatore Book almost read like a crossover between Greyhawk and FR.
Notice something?
WoC know that there are many gamers who like Greyhawk.
Why not change FR so that bot "Greyhawkers"  and "Realmers" get something they like?
Crazy idea?


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## an_idol_mind (Sep 10, 2007)

Samuel Leming said:
			
		

> They’d also be able to address many of the common problems non-FR fans have had with the setting.




This is what I think might be the problem if they reboot the Realms. Despite the fact that I don't like a lot of what the Realms has to offer, I've long been of the mind that changing it to a grittier setting would not be the best way to go. The Realms has been D&D's most popular setting for close to a generation now. The reason it's popular is because of the many fans of what the Realms are now and have been during most of its lifespan -- a huge, detailed, wondrous world with high magic, meddling gods, and crazy old wizards who could accidentally level a continent if they don't take their medication. Changing it to fit the model presented by Salvatore would be stripping a lot of what the Realms is to those fans.

Sure, they might pull in a boatload of new fans to cover the potential fans they lose. History, however, suggests that they won't. Not too many settings have survived such a drastic change. Greyhawk floundered for years after the Greyhawk Wars before finally being put down. Mystara went through major upheaval during Wrath of the Immortals, was effectively rebooted to appeal to non-Mystara fans, and failed after a decade of success. Dark Sun lost a lot of its fans through the reboot introduced by the Prism Pentad and the revised boxed set. Not too many settings survive the reboot button well.

The one thing I think a rebooted Realms will have going for it is that Ed Greenwood and R.A. Salvatore will probably continue to write for it. Driz'zt will still sell books, and Greenwood's work as the setting's creator will probably help draw in older fans. Still, tearing up the Realms and starting over would be a very dangerous path to walk at best. I think WotC would be better served to let the Realms be the Realms, and craft a new setting if they really want to highlight their new campaign model.


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## freyar (Sep 10, 2007)

Tharen the Damned said:
			
		

> I think you are right humble minion. I only own some FR products and read through some of the Books but even I can see that these Realms won't be the old 1ed/2ed/3xed any more.
> The feel of the few pages of the new Salvatore Book almost read like a crossover between Greyhawk and FR.
> Notice something?
> WoC know that there are many gamers who like Greyhawk.
> ...




The problem, I think, is that neither GH or FR fans will be happy with this "merged" setting, since it will probably lack the flavor of either.

I also think that the humble minion is right.  It would have been fine to "pare down" the setting somewhat, but this is such a setting wipe that it's hard to see how the, well, joviality of the setting can be left intact.


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## Samuel Leming (Sep 10, 2007)

Ruin Explorer said:
			
		

> Unless the 4E realms is truly a "travesty", they'll lose about four customers in the long run, I suspect.



Lose four, but gain four thousand.   


			
				Ruin Explorer said:
			
		

> Anyway, Ruin Explorer supports more ruins to explore, obviously. If those runs are the ghost-haunted ruins of Waterdeep, all the better! Maybe we can kick around Khelben's skull, or fight his lich or something? That'd be nice



Nah, not Waterdeep.  That would be cutting a little too deep.  Now the ruins of Silverymoon would make a good adventure...

All those 3.5 FR supplements are filled to the brim with locations begging to be turned into dungeons.

Sam


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## Ruin Explorer (Sep 10, 2007)

Huh, I didn't read the sample chapter before, now I have...

CCC = KKK = R.A. Salvatore is a tasteless assbastard. They're even called "The Night Riders". Does the man not have one original bone in his body? That's the sort of nincompoopery I would have thought was beneath me when I was thirteen, no joke...

However, I choose to believe that the generally crumminess of the said chapter related directly to it being written by an awful awful author, and that it does not reflect on the quality or character of the 4E FR accurately. Nor, likely, are the events of the past, as described in the clumsy exposition, handled with accuracy.


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## Tharen the Damned (Sep 10, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> The problem, I think, is that neither GH or FR fans will be happy with this "merged" setting, since it will probably lack the flavor of either.
> 
> I also think that the humble minion is right.  It would have been fine to "pare down" the setting somewhat, but this is such a setting wipe that it's hard to see how the, well, *joviality* of the setting can be left intact.




Call it Grey-Realms or Forgotten-Hawks and it is jovial and funny   

Anyway, the "Setting Merge" was just a crazy idea with no facts that might verify it.


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## Ruin Explorer (Sep 10, 2007)

Samuel Leming said:
			
		

> Nah, not Waterdeep.  That would be cutting a little too deep.  Now the ruins of Silverymoon would make a good adventure...




If they don't burn Waterdeep to the ground, they're wimps. Sad little wimps who should be ashamed of themselves. You don't do a "points of light" setting reboot and leave the most important and powerful city on the northern Sword Coast still standing!

Plus, who doesn't want to kill Khelben "Blackstaff"' Arunsun's inevitably lich? He wasn't Good-aligned! They can't pretend he wouldn't do it, the egotistical bastard! Anyway, I know I want to kill 'im. God, my players would love that so much. I guess if they forgot to burn down Waterdeep, I can always do it by myself...

Then again I was sorely disappointed when I misread that sample and thought Drizzt was _actually_ going to die... Fiddlesticks...

Silverymoon is cutting too light, frankly. You gotta burn down some places that someone actually cares about, if you're going to burn Sembia, Thay etc. as well.

PS - The "merging of two worlds" line does imply something funky. I do wonder if we'll have to put up with the lame Greyhawk gods in the FR (which has a large "god surplus" at the best of times).


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## Samuel Leming (Sep 10, 2007)

an_idol_mind said:
			
		

> Sure, they might pull in a boatload of new fans to cover the potential fans they lose. History, however, suggests that they won't. Not too many settings have survived such a drastic change. Greyhawk floundered for years after the Greyhawk Wars before finally being put down. Mystara went through major upheaval during Wrath of the Immortals, was effectively rebooted to appeal to non-Mystara fans, and failed after a decade of success. Dark Sun lost a lot of its fans through the reboot introduced by the Prism Pentad and the revised boxed set. Not too many settings survive the reboot button well.



I don't know about Mystara, but the Greyhawk Wars and Dark Sun reboots probably failed because of poor product quality.  They just plain stank.


			
				an_idol_mind said:
			
		

> Still, tearing up the Realms and starting over would be a very dangerous path to walk at best. I think WotC would be better served to let the Realms be the Realms, and craft a new setting if they really want to highlight their new campaign model.



But what would they sell if they don't reboot?

Sam


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## freyar (Sep 10, 2007)

Ruin Explorer said:
			
		

> Plus, who doesn't want to kill Khelben "Blackstaff"' Arunsun's inevitably lich? He wasn't Good-aligned! They can't pretend he wouldn't do it, the egotistical bastard! Anyway, I know I want to kill 'im. God, my players would love that so much. I guess if they forgot to burn down Waterdeep, I can always do it by myself...




Canonwise, (spoiler) 



Spoiler



the book _Blackstaff_ seems to have wiped out that possibility.


  On reason some people have been getting annoyed with the FR novels is this sort of thing happening too much recently.  In retrospect, some of it actually seems to signal the 4e apocalypse a little.


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## an_idol_mind (Sep 10, 2007)

Samuel Leming said:
			
		

> I don't know about Mystara, but the Greyhawk Wars and Dark Sun reboots probably failed because of poor product quality.  They just plain stank.




True, poor product did have a lot to do with it. But pissing off the old fan base by totally warping the setting certainly didn't help matters.



> But what would they sell if they don't reboot?




First of all, a lot of people were wondering the same thing at the end of 2nd edition, when the Realms had so very many products out there. WotC still managed to continue the setting for another seven years.

Second of all, there's a surprising amount of area in the Realms that either hasn't been explored by official supplements or hasn't been updated in many years. The setting is flat out HUGE.

Third of all, as the Realms is a living world that has an advancing timeline, there are a lot of areas that could be updated to reflect recent events. Shadowdale just recently got sacked by the Zhents. The city of Hope was recently created. Undermountain and Waterdeep have both gone through upheaval. The setting is changing all the time. You don't need to jump it forward 100 years, kill off most of the beloved NPCs, and wreck much of the world just to publish new product.


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## Ruin Explorer (Sep 10, 2007)

Samuel Leming said:
			
		

> I don't know about Mystara, but the Greyhawk Wars and Dark Sun reboots probably failed because of poor product quality.  They just plain stank.




Precisely - Also note that they came out before our culture as a whole was really familiar with the concept of "reboots" - we've seen, in the the 2000s, dozens of licenses/IPs get "rebooted", and in the vast majority of cases, the reboot has been more popular than the pre-reboot version (prime examples are in the recent movie reboots of Spiderman, Transformers, etc. - or of Battlestar Galactica and so on).

As you say, the Dark Sun and GH reboots were godawful.

Most good, successful reboots work on this principle:

1) Distill the essence of what makes the setting/character great.

2) Reinfuse it into a more "up-to-date" version.

3) Profit.

The Dark Sun reboot was more like:

1) Completely change Dark Sun and ignore all the stuff that made the setting genuinely special, going as far as to directly contradict it.

2) ???

3) Profit.

Only, obviously, it failed to profit, because they didn't take Dark Sun and make it cooler and more "Dark Sun"-ish, just modernized, they just pee'd all over it. It wasn't the new Battlestar Galactica, it was the old Battlestar Galatica after they got to Earth and started footling around on flying motorcycles...

Mystara failed because the "reboot" (unless we mean Red Steel) wasn't a true reboot, it was just updating the setting somewhat. A setting so conceptually out-of-date and out-of-step with the times that it was truly mindblowing. In the era of Planescape, there was no room for a thoughtless, utterly unreal (and not in a good way) "I thought it was cool at the time!" setting like Mystara.

Reboots are the win, but they need to follow the formula - distill the essence, then reinfuse it - Whether the 4E FR does this or not will likely determine it's popularity - that and how much they let eejits like Salvatore fondle and caress the setting inappropriately - If the CCC are canon, well, that's a baaaaaad sign.


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## Ruin Explorer (Sep 10, 2007)

an_idol_mind said:
			
		

> You don't need to jump it forward 100 years, kill off most of the beloved NPCs, and wreck much of the world just to publish new product.




Just who the flaming monkey dung are they "beloved" to? I'm an FR fan and BLOODY LOATHE the "beloved NPCs" - Virtually every I knew who ran FR in 2E did too, as did most of the players. The only people who liked them seemed to be those who had a severe hard-on for Drizzt or Elminster or other horrific Mary-Sue types.

If every single major FR NPC died in a fire, the setting would be better for it. It would certainly not be diminished.


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## Fobok (Sep 10, 2007)

Well, I've now read the preview chapter, and I have to say I love it. As I said before, I love Forgotten Realms because the setting advances. Things change. This is a *major* change, admittedly, but I still like it. And, as I've said, and others have said, there's nothing stopping you from playing in previous time periods.


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## Uzzy (Sep 10, 2007)

There's plenty for WoTC to explore in the Forgotten Realms. A new sourcebook on Cormyr would be nice. Not had one since 1st Edition, and plenty has changed since then. One detailing the Dalelands, along with the new Myth Drannor would be nice. A Silverymoon book in the same vain as the Waterdeep one, or heck, even Ptolus (A boy can dream can't he?). Sourcebooks detailing Amn, Tethyr, Impiltur, Sembia, the Western Heartlands can be done. What about a Faiths of Faerún? We still have loads to explore. You could even go nuts and do Kara-Tur, Maztica and Zakhura. People seem to forget just how HUGE the setting is. 

Destroying the setting and alienating the current fan base will not help bring that many new people into the Realms. Word of mouth is a vital marketing tool, after all, and if the people playing in the Realms are sticking with the old realms, the new books are redundant for players looking to join those groups.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Sep 10, 2007)

Ruin Explorer said:
			
		

> Huh, I didn't read the sample chapter before, now I have...
> 
> CCC = KKK = R.A. Salvatore is a tasteless assbastard. They're even called "The Night Riders". Does the man not have one original bone in his body? That's the sort of nincompoopery I would have thought was beneath me when I was thirteen, no joke...



I will note that the Death Eaters attack at the Quidditch World Cup in Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix reads like a newspaper account of a KKK attack, complete with pointed hoods that cover the bigots' faces.

Salvatore is hardly alone in drawing inspiration from real life villains.


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## JVisgaitis (Sep 10, 2007)

I must have been under a rock somewhere as I just read the preview chapter now. Crazy stuff. I'm all for it. The Realms seems very interesting to me now. and Cattiebrie is dead thank the gods.

Regarding Rich Baker saying that they weren't turning the Realms into a points of light setting, I don't know what he's talking about as its right in the preview chapter it clearly states:

"_Where are the candles to chase away the darkness?_”


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## an_idol_mind (Sep 10, 2007)

Ruin Explorer said:
			
		

> Precisely - Also note that they came out before our culture as a whole was really familiar with the concept of "reboots" - we've seen, in the the 2000s, dozens of licenses/IPs get "rebooted", and in the vast majority of cases, the reboot has been more popular than the pre-reboot version (prime examples are in the recent movie reboots of Spiderman, Transformers, etc. - or of Battlestar Galactica and so on).




As a matter of semantics, you seem to be confusing adaptations with reboots somewhat. Spider-Man is a film adaptation of the comic, not a reboot. The comic itself didn't get scrapped and restarted; it's still going strong after 40+ years.

As to Transformers, Battlestar Galactica, and others, those are reboots of a franchise that hasn't been big in decades. That's a bit different than Realms fans having one version of Faerûn in 2007 and then having what is essentially an entirely new world with a few old names in 2008.


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## Samuel Leming (Sep 10, 2007)

Somebody needs to start a poll asking if people would prefer FR go through this reboot or stay the same.  Don't think it would effect what WotC does, but the results would be interesting either way.

Sam

[edit] I'm too tired and lazy to do it.


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## Mortellan (Sep 10, 2007)

*Reads with glee.*

After the incessant lies about them working on 4th edition I believe the opposite anyone from WotC says. If Baker says FR won't be shoehorned into PoL then it would bet against it.


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## Fobok (Sep 10, 2007)

Samuel Leming said:
			
		

> Somebody needs to start a poll asking if people would prefer FR go through this reboot or stay the same.  Don't think it would effect what WotC does, but the results would be interesting either way.
> 
> Sam




After one small preview chapter, and without allowing time for people to get used to the idea, I think would be a little soon. 

I'm hoping there's more information available in Grand History of the Realms.


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## hopeless (Sep 10, 2007)

*4e faerun*



			
				William Ronald said:
			
		

> I don't think that the gods will die, but may be a bit more distant than they have been in the past -- assuming these changes happen.
> 
> Many of the good drow could have been destroyed, but some coulld exist as remnants. Drizzt may learn of some and seek them out and bring them to the safety of the Silver Marches. (Never assume a character who narrates events know everything.)
> 
> ...




And that nation was called Cyre and with it came the warforged, the shifters, the changelings and others...


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## an_idol_mind (Sep 10, 2007)

Samuel Leming said:
			
		

> Somebody needs to start a poll asking if people would prefer FR go through this reboot or stay the same.  Don't think it would effect what WotC does, but the results would be interesting either way.
> 
> Sam
> 
> [edit] I'm too tired and lazy to do it.




I think a better test would be to wait until there is 1) confirmation of some sort that this change is taking place, and 2) a few glimpses into what exactly the "new" Realms are.


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## Tharen the Damned (Sep 10, 2007)

Uzzy said:
			
		

> People seem to forget just how HUGE the setting is.




Sure, t is a huge setting, but WoC probably would have conducted a market survey where in the Realms DM let most of their adventures and campaigns play.

Kara Tur, Sembia and other foreign and not explored regions may not hold the same appeal for most groups as the the Swordcoast or the North for example.

And again, we have to see that the mechanical change from 3rd to 4th will be big. If, for example, suddenly the Gnomes are all gone as player race and Tieflings arrive en masse as PCs, there has to be a logical explanation. Or that Bards are gone (if they are gone, and we don't know that yet) and Warlords pop up all over the place.


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## RandomCitizenX (Sep 10, 2007)

I just wanted to go on record as saying that I have played in FR games in the past, but the number 1 reason I continue to avoid the setting is that the number of big named NPC's that could be doing the PC's job in a much better manner is way to high. I always feel like I am going to stumble across some plot involving them and it just makes me wonder what is the point. This jump forward in timeline may be enough for me to give FR another look.


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## Samuel Leming (Sep 10, 2007)

an_idol_mind said:
			
		

> I think a better test would be to wait until there is 1) confirmation of some sort that this change is taking place, and 2) a few glimpses into what exactly the "new" Realms are.



But all the knee-jerking and wild-ass speculating is fun!  

Sam


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## an_idol_mind (Sep 10, 2007)

Tharen the Damned said:
			
		

> And again, we have to see that the mechanical change from 3rd to 4th will be big. If, for example, suddenly the Gnomes are all gone as player race and Tieflings arrive en masse as PCs, there has to be a logical explanation. Or that Bards are gone (if they are gone, and we don't know that yet) and Warlords pop up all over the place.




In the change from 1st to 2nd edition, half-orcs suddenly vanished, all the assassins and monks disappeared, and bards suddenly became wusses. The world didn't get blown up in order to introduce these changes, though.


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## an_idol_mind (Sep 10, 2007)

Samuel Leming said:
			
		

> But all the knee-jerking and wild-ass speculating is fun!




Heh. Makes me look forward to seeing what's going to happen to Eberron in 2009...


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## Ruin Explorer (Sep 10, 2007)

an_idol_mind said:
			
		

> In the change from 1st to 2nd edition, half-orcs suddenly vanished, all the assassins and monks disappeared, and bards suddenly became wusses. The world didn't get blown up in order to introduce these changes, though.




The changes from 1st to 2nd edition were miniscule. You listed pretty much all of them right there!

From 2E to 3E would be a better argument to make.

You still haven't told us who these "beloved" NPCs are and who they are "beloved" too? I'm assuming you don't mean NPCs based on the Toni Morrison book... That'd be pretty wierd...

*Whizbang* - Yeah, he's hardly alone being a best-selling yet awful author, either, doesn't make the CCC anything but disgustingly tasteless and borderline racist.

How about we have a faux-holocaust, where the SS are the Taun Tekarn, Dwarven nazis, and the goblins represent the Jews? Would that go down well?


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## an_idol_mind (Sep 10, 2007)

Ruin Explorer said:
			
		

> The changes from 1st to 2nd edition were miniscule. You listed pretty much all of them right there!
> 
> From 2E to 3E would be a better argument to make.




Okay, from 2nd edition to 3rd edition. The world still didn't get blown up. The timeline only advanced 4 years between boxed sets.



> You still haven't told us who these "beloved" NPCs are and who they are "beloved" too? I'm assuming you don't mean NPCs based on the Toni Morrison book... That'd be pretty wierd...




Check out the big NPCs featured in any of the novels. Considering how well they sell, I doubt they're loathed by the Realms fans.


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## The Grumpy Celt (Sep 10, 2007)

Several years ago, in the waning months of TSR, someone posted a nifty graphic showing the Faerun continent on one side of the planet and the Flanaess (sp?) continent on the other. At the time it was written off as a joke.

I thought the pseudo-Native American cultures were badly handled in the Mazteca supplements, but the staff of WotC would have to be smoking rubber cigars if they thought dropping Grayhawk on it would improve things. 

The “two worlds” thing probably means something else.

That said, I think comparing the changes Drizzt was talking about to the Chaos War is apt. How well did that work out for the Dragon Lance setting?

A problem with the RSE is most are out of the hands of the PCs. The Avatar series were novels, but they were also adventure modules. So the PCs got to run amok and be the ones at the wheel. When the RSE are only in the novels, then those changes are out of the PCs hands. The new shadow-weave trilogy (Cormyr, Shadowdale and Anaroch) is a welcome change.

I still say (Forgotten Realms)x(Rifts)/(World of Darkness)=(New Forgotten Realms) = Bad Idea.


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## Uzzy (Sep 10, 2007)

> Check out the big NPCs featured in any of the novels. Considering how well they sell, I doubt they're loathed by the Realms fans.




They are very good in Novels. Ingame, however, they should be little more then flavour text. Check out 'Concerns of the Mighty' in the FRCS for a very good reason as to why these big NPC's don't solve all the problems in the world. Besides, I much prefer reading about the weaker NPC's. The Knights of Myth Drannor series, for instance.


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## William Ronald (Sep 10, 2007)

Ruin Explorer said:
			
		

> Unless the 4E realms is truly a "travesty", they'll lose about four customers in the long run, I suspect.
> 
> I'm a long-term FR fan, and I think this is a very good idea. The 2E and 3E Realms have filled up, frankly, with a lot of stupid crap. Stupid overpowered NPCs, stupid overpowered monster collectives that make no sense, just plain illogical stuff, and places that have near-zero "adventuring value", like Cormyr. The Forgotten Realms, is, at it's heart a very D&D setting - it's a world with multiple layers of forgotten cultures/empires, with more ruins to explore than you possibly ever could, and it's seen empires and kingdoms rise and fall constantly.
> 
> ...




Or Waterdeep could remain as a metropolis, but one beset by many perils.  Maybe parts of the city are a bit dangerous or in ruins from the last 100 years. Or the city may be intact, but it may need to be liberated from a tyrant.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Sep 10, 2007)

Ruin Explorer said:
			
		

> How about we have a faux-holocaust, where the SS are the Taun Tekarn, Dwarven nazis, and the goblins represent the Jews? Would that go down well?



It's not terribly hard to find fantasy novels that are based on World War II, including the very real life villains.

So I'd say that, yeah, it goes down OK with consumers.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Sep 10, 2007)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> Several years ago, in the waning months of TSR, someone posted a nifty graphic showing the Faerun continent on one side of the planet and the Flanaess (sp?) continent on the other. At the time it was written off as a joke.
> 
> I thought the pseudo-Native American cultures were badly handled in the Mazteca supplements, but the staff of WotC would have to be smoking rubber cigars if they thought dropping Grayhawk on it would improve things.



I'm not advocating this, but given that both planets are very large, and at least Toril explicitly has another big undiscovered continent, what would the harm be? I mean, other than making the huge number of gods in each setting even larger.


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## Ruin Explorer (Sep 10, 2007)

an_idol_mind said:
			
		

> Check out the big NPCs featured in any of the novels. Considering how well they sell, I doubt they're loathed by the Realms fans.




D&D players aren't the main market for those books, and they never have been. Just go to one of the message boards for R.A. Salvatore or the like if you disbelieve me - you think it's full of RPGers? It ain't. Most of the people who buy the FR novels have either never, or briefly played D&D - this was something even TSR knew, back in the day.

So it's bizarre to say "Drizzt bookz sell so people luv overpowered Mary-Sues thus the FR has to be full of overpowered Mary-Sues!", as you seem to be saying.

I do agree that you don't _have_ to blow the world up. I just think it'd be nice to 

*Whizbang* - You're missing the point on purpose, aren't you? The literally childish "CCC" creation equates black people and orcs. That's pretty rude, and somewhat sickening in it's crudity. I can't think of any "fantasy WW2" novels that have a _direct_ holocaust equivalent, not even the ones by Harry Turtledove, so I'd challenge you to produce the novels you claim are so easy to find. I'd particularly like to see a well-selling example (the Turtledove ones were a disaster compared to any of his quasi-historical novels, I've heard).

*William Ronald* - Burnt. To. The. Ground. I swear. Keep somewhere more interesting. You can't have an apocalypse and have New York still standing for god's sake!

*Grumpy Celt * - That's a bloody terrifying prospect. Also irritating because in my FR that side of the world was partially in use, and they rather promised, some years ago, that they'd never develop it.

As for your equation, there's no evidence that we're getting that, is there? Certainly not from that novel sample. There's no evidence of "RIFTS" or "World of Darkness" bits at all.

Besides, taking the best bits from RIFTS and the WoD would improve the FR.

Of course that's the problem, would people who employ someone who writes about the "CCC" in all seriousness, really take the "best bits"? Seems unlikely.

My fear is that the new FR will, like the revised Dark Sun, "fall between two stools" as we say in Britain (do you say that in the US?). That is to say, it may change enough to put off the 3E FR-lovers, but not enough to pick up new fans. We'll see, though.


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## an_idol_mind (Sep 10, 2007)

Ruin Explorer said:
			
		

> So it's bizarre to say "Drizzt bookz sell so people luv overpowered Mary-Sues thus the FR has to be full of overpowered Mary-Sues!", as you seem to be saying.




I'm not specifically commenting on Driz'zt. There are many others who both novel readers and gamers enjoy. Mirt the Moneylender comes to mind, as well as the Knights of Myth Drannor, many of the Harpers, and so on.

Also, if a lot of Realms fans are fans of the novels, blowing up the world would alienate them just as much, unless the novels occur in the game's past (which wouldn't be a bad idea, IMO).



> I do agree that you don't _have_ to blow the world up. I just think it'd be nice to




I don't disagree with you, and a Points of Light approach to the Realms would, in my mind, be more interesting than what's there now. But I'd feel really bad about the many fans out there who helped make the Realms so popular in the first place getting a royal screwjob in order to make the setting more marketable to the people out there who don't and might never like the world. 



> My fear is that the new FR will, like the revised Dark Sun, "fall between two stools" as we say in Britain (do you say that in the US?). That is to say, it may change enough to put off the 3E FR-lovers, but not enough to pick up new fans. We'll see, though.




That's the main reason I think a huge change to the setting would be a bad idea. Alienating your existing fan base in hopes of attracting a new fan base -- especially one that might already be playing dark fantasy settings like Midnight -- is not a terribly good idea unless that existing fan base is so small as to be insignificant. And if the latter were true and the Realms isn't profitable anymore, wouldn't it make more sense to lead off the 4th edition settings charge with, say, Eberron or a new setting rather than wrecking an old one?


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## Ruin Explorer (Sep 10, 2007)

an_idol_mind said:
			
		

> That's the main reason I think a huge change to the setting would be a bad idea. Alienating your existing fan base in hopes of attracting a new fan base -- especially one that might already be playing dark fantasy settings like Midnight -- is not a terribly good idea unless that existing fan base is so small as to be insignificant. And if the latter were true and the Realms isn't profitable anymore, wouldn't it make more sense to lead off the 4th edition settings charge with, say, Eberron or a new setting rather than wrecking an old one?




To be honest, this is why I think they're not going to screw it up. WotC haven't really had any "marketing disasters" as far as I know, perhaps due to the whole "DON'T LOSE ANY MORE GODDAMN MONEY DANCEY!" deal when TSR got taken over, so I think they'll manage to change the FR without killing it.

I still say the main "cause for concern" about the new FR is the CCC. God I hope that's the worst thing in the setting.

By the way, they've already killed off the only likeable part of the Harpers, the rank and file, and idiotically retained the slimy leadership, so I think that pooch is screwed. The Knights of Myth Drannor are a dumb idea, because they fill the same exact role as the PCs, but they're much better at it and prettier and richer (dumb dumb dumb dumb thing to have in an RPG setting). Mirt the Moneylender will be dead by default unless he's spent that money on life-extension potions, if they're skipping forwards a hundred year, so at least he's not being "cruelly murdered".

I do think, as you say, continuing the FR books as novels set in the past might be sensible, at least until people get used to the idea of the new setting.

To be honest but a little crude, I gotta figure that WotC figure people will buy any crap that has R.A. Salvatore or Ed Greenwood written across the top in big gold letters, so I doubt it'll be hard selling the new setting to the fans of the novels. After all, Drizzt is still uberer-than-thou, and a still his bizarrely smugly-angsty self. God help us Elminster, Khelben, The Simbul and so on all survive too.

PS - If burning Waterdeep is wrong, would it be too much to ask to have Cormyr completely sacked and burned? I'd particularly like the royal family and Vangerdhast dead if that's not too much to ask. I could set any adventure in Vangerdhast's tomb. That's another one that would please my players immensely.


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## Elsenrail (Sep 10, 2007)

I really like the new FR preview. The "old" setting was too full of heroes for me - not enough space for young, fresh adventurers, who want to save the world, because there are already tons of heroes. Dark and more mature FR? I'm in. I just hope they get rid off some uber-characters as well, like all those Chosen of Mystra. 

Make way for the new!


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## William Ronald (Sep 10, 2007)

Ruin Explorer, maybe an option for water deep is to have it resemble Beirut during the Lebanese Civil War.  So, that would be one possiblilty.  Or if Waterdeep becomes a city whose mention strikes fear into people, that would be a change.  So, if Waterdeep bites the dust as the metropolis of the Realms, which city should become a metropolis in its place?(William will do, by the way, as I do use my real name here.)

hopeless, having some races from Eberron might be accomplished by having some refugees from Cyre.  However, I was wondering if WotC might be drawing in real world mythologies even more into the Realms.  (Having a bunch of new deities show up with their worshippers would certainly be causing a bit of theological turmoil.)

If WotC is going to make great changes in the Realms, my hope is that we will see REAL examples of heroism from some of the current NPCs that would be eliminated.  Sacrifice is sometimes part of heroism, and I think that a few heroic stories of last stands might be inspirational to new and old players -- as well as be the spur of some adventure ideas.  (Maybe some intrepid adventurers will want to check out the site of the Symbul's Last Stand?)


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## Ruin Explorer (Sep 10, 2007)

William Ronald said:
			
		

> (Maybe some intrepid adventurers will want to check out the site of the Symbul's Last Stand?)




...so they can take her stuff? Hey, it had to be said! I'd love that, though. You could reverse my hatred of a lot of these NPCs if they "went down fighting" and left cool heirlooms in the form of personalised magic items and so on, that could be used to once again fight evil.

As for Waterdeep, I'd like to see it replaced by a new city, one which is still in the process of being built. I wouldn't weep if the options you presented were how it was, though. Perhaps the "Beiruit" thing is a little "done" in the Realms, I seem to remember like two-three cities that happened to in 2E...


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## phadeout (Sep 10, 2007)

Maybe they'll just wipe out most of the high powered people, I can see that happening.

How to retire Elminister but keep him around?  Make a Hogwarts school and turn Elminister into Dumbledore...  lol.


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## phadeout (Sep 10, 2007)

Ruin Explorer said:
			
		

> ...so they can take her stuff? Hey, it had to be said! I'd love that, though. You could reverse my hatred of a lot of these NPCs if they "went down fighting" and left cool heirlooms in the form of personalised magic items and so on, that could be used to once again fight evil.
> 
> As for Waterdeep, I'd like to see it replaced by a new city, one which is still in the process of being built. I wouldn't weep if the options you presented were how it was, though. Perhaps the "Beiruit" thing is a little "done" in the Realms, I seem to remember like two-three cities that happened to in 2E...




Waterdeep could become Overmountain, after Undermountain comes from underneath and takes over the city... bwahhahah.

Now you need to fight through the ruined City, AND Undermountain...


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## an_idol_mind (Sep 10, 2007)

phadeout said:
			
		

> How to retire Elminister but keep him around?  Make a Hogwarts school and turn Elminister into Dumbledore...  lol.




I don't think people will have near the amount of hatred for Elminster if he's the only one of the Chosen left. Although it would probably also help if he stopped man-whoring himself about the Realms...


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## William Ronald (Sep 10, 2007)

phadeout said:
			
		

> Maybe they'll just wipe out most of the high powered people, I can see that happening.
> 
> How to retire Elminister but keep him around?  Make a Hogwarts school and turn Elminister into Dumbledore...  lol.





Well, he could be defending a place like Corymyr, with or without the Obaskyr family in charge and be a very changed character.  So, instead of peacefully smoking a pipe, Elminster is busy trying to keep one place intact as he saw a lot of horror in the last century.

Ruin Explorer, I was waiting for someone to use that line.  It is just that if the events indicated transpire, WotC would have a chance to highlight heroes and villains, and maybe have a few adventure threads hinted at -- for PCs to follow up.

Also, here is an idea -- present a full adventuring party of maybe eight characters who are from adjoining areas and work together.  Nothing too powerful, but enough that they might be an example for others and an inspiration.  (Also, it can give an idea of how players might want to develop their characters.)


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## Ruin Explorer (Sep 10, 2007)

an_idol_mind said:
			
		

> I don't think people will have near the amount of hatred for Elminster if he's the only one of the Chosen left. Although it would probably also help if he stopped man-whoring himself about the Realms...




I wouldn't mind the man-whoring if ol' Elminster was say, remotely attractive, but he's an ugly old guy with an ugly beard who hasn't had a haircut in years, wears a dress and a stupid hat, smokes heavily, and is generally unpleasant to think of.

Could someone has rich and powerful as him get laid? Sure. Is it creepy to write books about it? Oh boy definately. I don't want to read Ed Greenwood's "happy time" material...

Give Elminster a haircut, shave his beard, lose the hat, in fact, y'know let the Queer Eye guys (who MUST exist in a place as cosmopolitan as the Realms) give him the whole treatment, and he could be made into a likeable character who people who aren't scary beardoes could actually relate to.

Either that or rip his powers away and turn him into a Dumbledore-a-like, as suggested.


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## William Ronald (Sep 10, 2007)

an_idol_mind said:
			
		

> I don't think people will have near the amount of hatred for Elminster if he's the only one of the Chosen left. Although it would probably also help if he stopped man-whoring himself about the Realms...





Well, if it was one of his kids that was involved in a lot of the chaos, Elminster might consider committed relationships might make more sense than trying to be the father of his own country.  (I thought the character's name is Elminster, not Rasputin.)


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## William Ronald (Sep 10, 2007)

Ruin Explorer said:
			
		

> I wouldn't mind the man-whoring if ol' Elminster was say, remotely attractive, but he's an ugly old guy with an ugly beard who hasn't had a haircut in years, wears a dress and a stupid hat, smokes heavily, and is generally unpleasant to think of.
> 
> Could someone has rich and powerful as him get laid? Sure. Is it creepy to write books about it? Oh boy definately. I don't want to read Ed Greenwood's "happy time" material...
> 
> ...





Heck, if they want to keep the beard , try Sean Connery -- the FRCS picture of Elminster seems inspired by that celebrity.  Mind you, in some other pictures, you have to ask: did Elminster father any of the members of the band ZZ Top?   

Classic Elminster:







ZZ Top 





3 E Elminster





Sean Connery as Allan Quartermain:


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## AdmundfortGeographer (Sep 10, 2007)

Ruin Explorer said:
			
		

> I still say the main "cause for concern" about the new FR is the CCC. God I hope that's the worst thing in the setting.



Tell me about if. The warning sirens were all over that.


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## William Ronald (Sep 10, 2007)

Eric Anondson said:
			
		

> Tell me about if. The warning sirens were all over that.





If I recall the alphabet used by the elves in Faerun and the one used by the humans, is there no letter c.  (In English, the letter c is mostly redundant as it individually sounds s or k, except when comboned with h for the sound in church.)  The CCC is a bit much, and I would love to see it have a rather horrific end.  (Maybe Drizzt, some dwarves, elves, and humans can march them to border of the Silver Marches and point them in the direction of Waterdeep -- City of Demons and the Undead.  Okay, Ruin Explorer and Eric, is this better for you?   )


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## Green Knight (Sep 10, 2007)

William Ronald said:
			
		

> Well, if it was one of his kids that was involved in a lot of the chaos, Elminster might consider committed relationships might make more sense than trying to be the father of his own country. (I thought the character's name is Elminster, not Rasputin.)




How about a Half-Fiend Wizard who rides around on a Nightmare, and who calls himself Venger?


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## William Ronald (Sep 10, 2007)

Green Knight said:
			
		

> How about a Half-Fiend Wizard who rides around on a Nightmare, and who calls himself Venger?





I think we would have to shrink Elminster, shave his head and beard -- nah too much trouble.  Besides, EGG might claim infingement rights. 

On a more serious note, there is a great Irish myth involving Cuchulainn who fights a great warrior and kills him -- only learning as the young man died that the warrior was his son.  If Elminster had to go through something like that amid all the destruction round him, he might be a very different person in a future version of the Realms.


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## Ruin Explorer (Sep 10, 2007)

William Ronald said:
			
		

> If I recall the alphabet used by the elves in Faerun and the one used by the humans, is there no letter c.  (In English, the letter c is mostly redundant as it individually sounds s or k, except when comboned with h for the sound in church.)  The CCC is a bit much, and I would love to see it have a rather horrific end.  (Maybe Drizzt, some dwarves, elves, and humans can march them to border of the Silver Marches and point them in the direction of Waterdeep -- City of Demons and the Undead.  Okay, Ruin Explorer and Eric, is this better for you?   )




I think you're right, which means they're actually the KKK or the SSS, which kinda worse. I think it's very unfortunate that this "white-guy" equivalent (Drizzt) is having to "save" the Orcs from them too, instead of something more empowering, like the apparently ruling-class Orcs y'know, terminating them with extreme prejudice...

It's particularly sad that Salvatore chose to handle this so amazingly crudely, because there IS something to be said for a story exploring the tensions created when a group of people once regarded as an enemy become your neighbours and rulers. Hell, that's kind of advanced by D&D standards, so I guess that's why WotC pay hacks like Salvatore, to dumb it down and not scare the horse.

Bitter? Me? What?


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Sep 10, 2007)

William Ronald said:
			
		

> On a more serious note, there is a great Irish myth involving Cuchulainn who fights a great warrior and kills him -- only learning as the young man died that the warrior was his son.  If Elminster had to go through something like that amid all the destruction round him, he might be a very different person in a future version of the Realms.



If nothing else, it might encourage the old man to keep his pants buttoned up a little more often in the new edition.


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## Irda Ranger (Sep 10, 2007)

Rather than get into this further, I'll just say that I agree with Ruin Explorer, both at a high conceptual level and with respect to many fine grain details.

Particularly with respect to Khelben. Few things would please me more than defeating the Lich of Overmountain and playing soccer with his skull.


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## Uzzy (Sep 10, 2007)

> Could someone has rich and powerful as him get laid? Sure. Is it creepy to write books about it? Oh boy definately. I don't want to read Ed Greenwood's "happy time" material...




Perhaps you could point us in the direction these 'Happy Time Elminster' books? I don't seem to recall sections in the Elminster novels detailing his sexual activities. 

Anyway, we get the point. After completely misinterpreting the Realms, you've decided you don't like it. You think the Realms shown in this preview would be much better. Well, as an existing fan of the Realms, I disagree.  I don't think alienating a large portion of the fanbase is a good way to bring about a new edition. That fanbase is probably going to be the most useful tool in bringing in new players, and if a large portion of them is still playing in the Realms set in 1375 DR, or even earlier, then that's a problem for WoTC when they push a new edition. Perhaps we can keep the discussion to the 4th Edition Realms, as opposed to misinterpretations of Elminster?



> Particularly with respect to Khelben. Few things would please me more than defeating the Lich of Overmountain and playing soccer with his skull.




Spoiler. Both Khelben Arunsun Blackstaff and Halaster Blackcloak died in recent Forgotten Realms novels (Blackstaff) and Adventures (Expedition to Undermountain) So it's unlikely you'll get to kill them again!


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## Ruin Explorer (Sep 10, 2007)

Uzzy said:
			
		

> Anyway, we get the point. After completely misinterpreting the Realms, you've decided you don't like it. You think the Realms shown in this preview would be much better. Well, as an existing fan of the Realms, I disagree.  I don't think alienating a large portion of the fanbase is a good way to bring about a new edition. That fanbase is probably going to be the most useful tool in bringing in new players, and if a large portion of them is still playing in the Realms set in 1375 DR, or even earlier, then that's a problem for WoTC when they push a new edition. Perhaps we can keep the discussion to the 4th Edition Realms, as opposed to misinterpretations of Elminster?




Oh, so having played in the FR since 1989 I'm not an "existing fan of the Realms" and just "misinterpreting" it. Gee thanks for that mister, I'm glad you set that straight! You might want to ask in future 

I don't think this will "alienate" the fanbase unless they screw it up monumentally. I'm hardly saying anything new about Elminster, either, but I'll leave off that old beardo for now (misinterpretation indeed! Pfffft!). A hundred-year jump forward will allow for them to do some very good things to the Realms, I would suggest.

Good news on the spoiler, though! Sadly when I first saw "spoiler" I thought you were commenting on Khelben-lich kickball, and that it was a very droll joke!

Incidentally, it's kind of sad that anyone who replies to a poster with "spoiler text" in it with the quote button is forced to see the spoiler! Oh well.


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## Uzzy (Sep 10, 2007)

My misinterpreting comment was aimed at many on this thread, but even if you've played since 1989, your still misinterpreting the Realms if you believe Elminster, Khelben etc are a problem in the Realms. I assume you have read the 'Concerns of the Mighty' sidebar, page 84 in the FRCS?

Infact, read this post over at the WoTC boards, that explains the situation quite perfectly. I'll not quote it, as it's huge. 

If Mystra's Chosen are a "problem" for your Forgotten Realms..


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## Ruin Explorer (Sep 10, 2007)

Uzzy said:
			
		

> My misinterpreting comment was aimed at many on this thread, but even if you've played since 1989, your still misinterpreting the Realms if you believe Elminster, Khelben etc are a problem in your Realms. I assume you have read the 'Concerns of the Mighty' sidebar, page 84 in the FRCS?




What's FRCS? I stopped running the Realms about three years ago so I may well have forgotten. Is that the 3E FR main book?

They're a problem when the metaplot keeps moving and involves them, and they're irritating and stupid even if you ignore them. That's no misinterpretation, just an honest to god opinion (one others share, apparently, given the above comments, the legendary JDCorley thread on rpg.net and so on). You don't have to dislike them, but if you don't acknowledge that they're an irritant for many, you're in denial.

Just to be clear - they're not a problem to my "day to day" game, but they fact that they exist as an important and once-unchanging (but apparently changed now!) part of the setting is irritating. I think it's really strange to be apparently arguing that the Realms doesn't have too many rules-breaking high-powered NPCs in it...


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## Imp (Sep 10, 2007)

William Ronald said:
			
		

> On a more serious note, there is a great Irish myth involving Cuchulainn who fights a great warrior and kills him -- only learning as the young man died that the warrior was his son.  If Elminster had to go through something like that amid all the destruction round him, he might be a very different person in a future version of the Realms.



This is where I favor Greek myths – Elminster instead meets his daughter, something different happens, revelation etc. etc., beard be-dewed with eyeballs.


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## Irda Ranger (Sep 11, 2007)

Uzzy said:
			
		

> Spoiler. Both Khelben Arunsun Blackstaff and Halaster Blackcloak died in recent Forgotten Realms novels (Blackstaff) and Adventures (Expedition to Undermountain) So it's unlikely you'll get to kill them again!



Apparently you play a different game than I do! I play D&D, where killing people multiple times is not only possible, but practically 'likely.'  You're aware of the on-again, dead-again relationship Elminster and Manshoon had going for a while there, aren't you?  It's hardly like the PC's are the only ones with access to _Raise Dead_, _True Resurrection_, etc.

However, your spoiler exactly makes my point.  What if I were running a campaign where NPC-X is the main BBEG (or benefactor, plot element, whatever), and then the WotC guys come along and kills that dude off?  The current campaign I'm playing in is set in Waterdeep (mostly), and here comes WotC - whoops!  Waterdeep is now just "hip deep", IYKWIM.



			
				Uzzy said:
			
		

> your still misinterpreting the Realms if you believe Elminster, Khelben etc are a problem in the Realms. I assume you have read the 'Concerns of the Mighty' sidebar, page 84 in the FRCS?



I read it, thanks.  They're still a problem to me.  Not just them, but "Them + the Novels + the RSE's", combined, are my problem.  I, whether a player or DM, am clearly not in control of where the world is heading or where I can take it.  I have less control over the future of the Forgotten Realms than I do over the future of America here in the real world (speaking solely as a citizen who can vote and write to his representatives).  In FR, I don't even get that one vote.  It's just *BAM*, your campaign and everything you've done for the last two years is gone and buried under the torid prose of R.A. Salvatore, or whoever.

As for the NPC's, Eberron did it better. There are people who are powerful for political reasons, but level-wise they're mostly 5-7th level.  That really lets the PC's be the obvious, first-choice heroes of the setting.

But this reboot sounds pretty cool to me. So, maybe I'll buy it, and then just never buy or read any further published materials.  That might work, as long as Elminster bites it.


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## Ruin Explorer (Sep 11, 2007)

Irda Ranger said:
			
		

> But this reboot sounds pretty cool to me. So, maybe I'll buy it, and then just never buy or read any further published materials.  That might work, as long as Elminster bites it.




I could agree more (with all the rest of what you said as well).


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## William Ronald (Sep 11, 2007)

This page on the Espruar font  shows that there is no C in Espruar, so it looks like the Casin Cu Calas could easily be spelled in Common script with either the Thorass equivalent of C or K.    (if you have the FRCS book, note that c is crossed out in the Espruar script.)   So, an elf who would somehow know the English Alphabet might write the Casin Cu Calas as the Kasin Ku Kalas.  (Oy vey, do these bad guys need to go down hard!)


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Sep 11, 2007)

Uzzy said:
			
		

> My misinterpreting comment was aimed at many on this thread, but even if you've played since 1989, your still misinterpreting the Realms if you believe Elminster, Khelben etc are a problem in the Realms. I assume you have read the 'Concerns of the Mighty' sidebar, page 84 in the FRCS?
> 
> Infact, read this post over at the WoTC boards, that explains the situation quite perfectly. I'll not quote it, as it's huge.
> 
> If Mystra's Chosen are a "problem" for your Forgotten Realms..



Yeeeeeah, no.

When you're adventuring in Shadowdale, and something's going down, telling the players when they ask that Elminster is out of town _again_ sounds like (and is) crap after the second or third time it happens.

The notion that Elminster, or whomever, can't be bothered to step in and solve a lot of these problems is even worse, and directly contradicts the published alignments for the characters.

If you were playing in Metropolis, instead of the Forgotten Realms, it wouldn't be out of line to ask why Superman never seems to _ever_ have time to step in. It doesn't get any less dumb when it's Elminster.


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## Mkhaiwati (Sep 11, 2007)

*beer and gaming*

To me, this sounds like American Beer (I hope you like it!)

After Prohibition and WWII, the few remaining beer manufacturers marketed beer also for women, and they all tried to come up with the most likable beer they could to appeal to the widest audience. Which means they all began to taste the same after a while. American beer is a product of marketing. By making the Realms more "point-of-light"-ish, they have succeeded in making it less unique, and more like Midnight or some other setting. Enjoy the American beer.

The first thing I thought of with CCC was the Civilian Conservation Corps. I go fishing at a hatchery and dam they made in the 1930's.

If 4e is set 10 years in advance, and this chapter by Salvatore is for real in the sign of things to come, how will any party be able to affect the Realms if the future is already set in stone? For those who are applauding the possible removal of icons and giving more power to the players, how much power is there really when the future is decided? If you can ignore the future, why can't you ignore the icons or any other books you don't agree with for your campaign?


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## Sunderstone (Sep 11, 2007)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> Yeeeeeah, no.
> 
> When you're adventuring in Shadowdale, and something's going down, telling the players when they ask that Elminster is out of town _again_ sounds like (and is) crap after the second or third time it happens.
> 
> ...




omg! we agree on something   

check my post (#101).

I agree that the Realms needs the uber-scale reboot. 
Get rid of all those super powered NPCs (or 90% of them would suffice).

I think the main question we should be asking is... 
*Will WotC repeat the past mistakes and allow every novel to alter canon after this overhaul?*

If thats the case, the reboot will be a waste of time.


Late Edit*** If WotC doesnt allow all the novels to change canon all over again, the FR news might be enough for me to take a closer look at 4E in general. As a fan since the grey box, I miss FR.


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## Green Knight (Sep 11, 2007)

> If 4e is set 10 years in advance, and this chapter by Salvatore is for real in the sign of things to come, how will any party be able to affect the Realms if the future is already set in stone? For those who are applauding the possible removal of icons and giving more power to the players, how much power is there really when the future is decided? If you can ignore the future, why can't you ignore the icons or any other books you don't agree with for your campaign?




What makes you think the timeline will be set 10 years in the future? It's much more likely that it'll be 100 years, at the same point that the events in that sample chapter occur. So no, the future won't be written in stone, as the PC's will be active in the present, not the past.


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## Irda Ranger (Sep 11, 2007)

Just in case any WotC employees who have any say over the novel-writing process are reading this, I have a request to make:

No more RSE's.

Really.  This isn't a world like Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time books where we're all just passive readers. This is a published game setting where we (the players & DM's) are supposed to be writing the stories.  It's very dis-empowering to read a novel and find that now your city / nation / religion / species no longer exists.

That is not to say "No more novels." Please, feel free to write / have written more novels. BUT, make sure they take place *in* the Realms without re-writing the Realms.  Tell the story on how Fighter Bob and his Merry Band fought off an Orc invasion, or stormed a forgotten Keep in the Lost Hills.

Frankly, the original Icewind Dale trilogy, and the first Exhile trilogy from RAS were pretty good in this regard.  They told Drizzts' (and his companions') story without totally farking up the status quo set forth in the campaign setting.  The status quo was preserved, rather than altered.

I think this is a good model moving forward.  Your new POL framework will actually help in this regard, as most adventures will be about preserving civilization from various onslaughts, and thus keeping a 1457 DR setting "about the same" from year to year. 

That way we can both read the Realms and adventure in the Realms, without the former making a mockery of the latter.

Thanks.


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## Mkhaiwati (Sep 11, 2007)

> What makes you think the timeline will be set 10 years in the future? It's much more likely that it'll be 100 years, at the same point that the events in that sample chapter occur. So no, the future won't be written in stone, as the PC's will be active in the present, not the past.




I said "if" because the inital report on the 4e Realms was that there will be a 10 year jump in the timeline. The problem with Salvatore's chapter is that it is set 100 years ahead, but the promo for the book says it picks up where the last Drizzt book left off. With Cattie-brie and Wulfgar and Bruenor alive. Since his books have Drizzt writing from a future perspective, we just don't know what is happening here. 

If the jump is 10 years, the future is written. If 100 years, it is as you say. We just don't know yet.


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## ruleslawyer (Sep 11, 2007)

Irda Ranger said:
			
		

> Rather than get into this further, I'll just say that I agree with Ruin Explorer, both at a high conceptual level and with respect to many fine grain details.
> 
> Particularly with respect to Khelben. Few things would please me more than defeating the Lich of Overmountain and playing soccer with his skull.



Oy. This makes me sad (both with respect to the general and the specific points). Such implications for the campaign...


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## Irda Ranger (Sep 11, 2007)

ruleslawyer said:
			
		

> Oy. This makes me sad (both with respect to the general and the specific points). Such implications for the campaign...



There's quite a bit of difference between your campaign and the way WotC would treat said campaign, if you let them.  Did you read Uzzy's spoiler above?

Really, the Khelben example was just working with the material I was given. It was a specific case for "I'd like to hurt TSR/WotC the way they've hurt me by doing what they've done to Dragonlance, Dark Sun and my beloved Grey Box FR."  Not so much a comment on Khelben, who I must say is one of the more interesting and least annoying of "Mystra's chosen."

Petty. Childish even. But Ruin Explorer got me excited with the possibility of plating in an FR where our PC's are the heroes, not Ed Greenwood's group.

You know, like in your campaign.

Not that it'll happen. WotC wouldn't bare to give up control like that.


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## grimslade (Sep 11, 2007)

As much as it pains me to say it:
  The Forgotten Realms Novels eclipse the sales of the FR RPG materials by a lot. The novels will continue to set the canon for the realms. The Uber-NPCs will still exist as long as they sell. RSE's sell books, therefore RSE's will continue to happen. Do not put the cart before the horse. The Grey box realms were fantastic. It is our fault that we bought Douglas Nile's _Dark Walker on Moonshae_ that started this whole she-bang. Sure, Dragonlance set the precedent but that's just a quibble.


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## hong (Sep 11, 2007)

Nothing would get me more excited about a RSE than a Bioware CRPG about it.

Although to be fair, nothing would get me more excited about the week-old milk carton in my fridge than a Bioware CRPG about it. I am totally a Bioware fanboy, and have been ever since Baldur's Gate.


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## Ruin Explorer (Sep 11, 2007)

grimslade said:
			
		

> It is our fault that we bought Douglas Nile's _Dark Walker on Moonshae_ that started this whole she-bang.




Nah, it's the fault of the people who didn't play AD&D, but bought FR novels in droves due to the slightly stagnant state of fantasy literature in the mid-late '80s. That's not the same as the players, I suspect, because FR players alone do not a New York Times Bestseller make, I would suggest.

Though I will accept responsibility for the Alias business, I bought all those novels, even when it got damn silly, I must admit. I even ran my players through the Curse of the Azure Bonds adventure. That was huuuuuuge fun actually, it's quite a nice adventure, in a late 1E kind of way.


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## ruleslawyer (Sep 11, 2007)

grimslade said:
			
		

> As much as it pains me to say it:
> The Forgotten Realms Novels eclipse the sales of the FR RPG materials by a lot. The novels will continue to set the canon for the realms. The Uber-NPCs will still exist as long as they sell. RSE's sell books, therefore RSE's will continue to happen. Do not put the cart before the horse. The Grey box realms were fantastic. It is our fault that we bought Douglas Nile's _Dark Walker on Moonshae_ that started this whole she-bang. Sure, Dragonlance set the precedent but that's just a quibble.



Well put indeed!

As a long-time Realms DM, I really do get the feeling that I'm the happier for having avoided the FR novels pretty much entirely ("Elminster at the Magefair" is pretty much the only FR tale I've ever read outside of the story bits in game materials). My own introduction in the Realms was back in the early days of Dragon, and I've never looked back. I happen to really, truly like Ed Greenwood's writing... although he may present a totally different character in the novels, and from what I've read on the boards he's got a sad penchant (shared, incidentally, by otherwise stellar writers like Leiber and Moorcock) for the...erm, ribald. IME, Elminster's sexual exploits have come across as *humanizing* rather than as Ed's "happy-time material." Ed's stated intention was to model him closer to Belgarath than Gandalf, and I think it comes off well in the game materials. It also seems quite convincing to me; old gruff sage aside, I've seen how charm works in the RW, and I can easily believe the exploits detailed in, say, Volo's Guide to Waterdeep given that most of the women involved are either paid company or apprentices. (Ever walk around a university campus and see some of those professor-student couples, people?)

Where the novels go is another thing entirely. (I don't mind the whole "merging with the Goddess of Magic" thing coming off as sexual, incidentally, since it's a common mythic trope to anthropomorphize a grant of power as intercourse, but who knows how it's written.) 

In short, I *like* the character of the Realms NPCs as they're presented in the game materials; I like Ed's phraseology and naming conventions, and I do actually like the Chosen... to the extent that they're presented in the game materials, as itinerant, erratic demigods. I quite like Elminster, who AFAICT is there pretty much entirely to be a _narrator_. Now, changing him from narrator to protagonist sounds like a disaster (and I imagine it's been; I can't even begin to visualize what "Elminster in Myth Drannor" or "Elminster in Hell" were like as reads), but as a narrator, he is used IMO quite brilliantly.


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## humble minion (Sep 11, 2007)

grimslade said:
			
		

> As much as it pains me to say it:
> The Forgotten Realms Novels eclipse the sales of the FR RPG materials by a lot. The novels will continue to set the canon for the realms. The Uber-NPCs will still exist as long as they sell. RSE's sell books, therefore RSE's will continue to happen. Do not put the cart before the horse. The Grey box realms were fantastic. It is our fault that we bought Douglas Nile's _Dark Walker on Moonshae_ that started this whole she-bang. Sure, Dragonlance set the precedent but that's just a quibble.




A fair bit of truth here.  Novels drive FR, no point arguing about it.

But I don't necessarily think RSEs are what sell the books.  As far as I know (I have to admit my tolerance for FR novels has basically gone through the floor since I discovered the existence of better stuff out there) pretty much every single FR trilogy in the past few years has been a RSE of some sort or another.  But (and I stand to be proved wrong by bestseller lists, sales figures etc) the heroes of series like Return of the Archwizards, Last Mythal, Rage of Dragons, etc, etc, etc don't seem to have nearly the same traction as the characters from earlier novels - the Icewind Dale and Dark Elf trilogies, and the Arilyn Moonblade books in particular (the Erevis Cale books _might_ be a more recent example, though admittedly I haven't read them and only going on hearsay).  And notably, none of these series had any great metaplot/setting implications.  Small-scale plots lead to greater intimacy with the characters lead to more emotional involvement lead to greater reader loyalty.  Or at least that's my experience, as one guy who kept on reading the Drizzt novels way, waaay after they'd polevaulted the megalodon.

My gut feeling is that small-scale, lower-level FR novels can sell just as well as the drearily repetitive apocalypses that seem to beset poor old Faerun every second Thursday.  The main problem I see is that the current regular FR novel customers - overwhelmingly young adults, at a guess - probably LIKE the RSEs and will miss them if they go, and it will require a non-trivial level of writing skill to convince them that low-level stuff can be just as cool and interesting.  Of course, the whole setting reboot is a convincing argument that pleasing 'current customers' is not WotCs priority 1 in the whole business...


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## ruleslawyer (Sep 11, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> Nothing would get me more excited about a RSE than a Bioware CRPG about it.
> 
> Although to be fair, nothing would get me more excited about the week-old milk carton in my fridge than a Bioware CRPG about it. I am totally a Bioware fanboy, and have been ever since Baldur's Gate.



So I take it that you love Bioware with every part of your body (including your pee-pee)?

Sorry. See, I post on these forums in order to *avoid* playing CRPGs (I've worked out the respective time costs a bit...)


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## GSHamster (Sep 11, 2007)

I kind of like the Forgotten Realms the way they are, and don't really want to see them changed too drastically.  Toughening up the villains so they're not complete push-overs (as was done for 3E) was a good idea.  But pushing the villains into ascendancy, a la a Points of Light setting, seems excessive, and out of character for the Realms.

That being said, I'd love to see a one-off "Mirror Universe" Forgotten Realms.  That would be pretty cool.


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## Irda Ranger (Sep 11, 2007)

humble minion said:
			
		

> the heroes of series like Return of the Archwizards, Last Mythal, Rage of Dragons, etc, etc, etc don't seem to have nearly the same traction as the characters from earlier novels - the Icewind Dale and Dark Elf trilogies, and the Arilyn Moonblade books in particular (the Erevis Cale books _might_ be a more recent example, though admittedly I haven't read them and only going on hearsay).  And notably, none of these series had any great metaplot/setting implications.  Small-scale plots lead to greater intimacy with the characters lead to more emotional involvement lead to greater reader loyalty.  Or at least that's my experience, as one guy who kept on reading the Drizzt novels way, waaay after they'd polevaulted the megalodon.
> 
> My gut feeling is that small-scale, lower-level FR novels can sell just as well as the drearily repetitive apocalypses that seem to beset poor old Faerun every second Thursday.  The main problem I see is that the current regular FR novel customers - overwhelmingly young adults, at a guess - probably LIKE the RSEs and will miss them if they go, and it will require a non-trivial level of writing skill to convince them that low-level stuff can be just as cool and interesting.  Of course, the whole setting reboot is a convincing argument that pleasing 'current customers' is not WotCs priority 1 in the whole business...



I wholly agree, which is what bugs me no end about the "RSE novels."  I don't want to guess what WotC's systems are for picking novels and plots, but I feel like it must be some system that selects for the 'obvious' plots, rather than the human level ones.  The first couple books about Alias were great, and none of them had to burn down any kingdoms.

Give me some good novels about characters I can enjoy reading, who have human problems and and live in a world we can at least imagine. No more Chosen as protagonists.

Hell, I'd probably pick up a new Drizzt novel if someone at WotC told RAS to "just tell a story - and don't screw anything up."  I bet that would get much better results than the current "Ok RAS, here's where we want to take the setting, so be sure to tell the story of how they happen" system that seems to prevail at present.


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## Uzzy (Sep 11, 2007)

> When you're adventuring in Shadowdale, and something's going down, telling the players when they ask that Elminster is out of town again sounds like (and is) crap after the second or third time it happens.
> 
> The notion that Elminster, or whomever, can't be bothered to step in and solve a lot of these problems is even worse, and directly contradicts the published alignments for the characters.




No. You tell them that Elminster is out of town dealing with Larloch's latest plot. Or the Malaugryms. Or Shades. Or anyone one of the many, many high level evil powers who could annihilate the PC's in one stroke. So the adventurers can deal with the little orc problem, rather then bother someone who has bigger problems to deal with.  



> Apparently you play a different game than I do! I play D&D, where killing people multiple times is not only possible, but practically 'likely.' You're aware of the on-again, dead-again relationship Elminster and Manshoon had going for a while there, aren't you? It's hardly like the PC's are the only ones with access to Raise Dead, True Resurrection, etc.




Of course. Spoiler. However, Khelben's dead. Permanently. He's done his job, and is hanging out in Arvandor now. If that doesn't suit you, the bring him back!



> I read it, thanks. They're still a problem to me. Not just them, but "Them + the Novels + the RSE's", combined, are my problem. I, whether a player or DM, am clearly not in control of where the world is heading or where I can take it. I have less control over the future of the Forgotten Realms than I do over the future of America here in the real world (speaking solely as a citizen who can vote and write to his representatives). In FR, I don't even get that one vote. It's just *BAM*, your campaign and everything you've done for the last two years is gone and buried under the torid prose of R.A. Salvatore, or whoever.




You have all the control over the future of the Forgotten Realms. At least in your home game. If you don't like the latest RSE, then don't use it. Heck, my own game is very different to the canonical one. 



> What's FRCS? I stopped running the Realms about three years ago so I may well have forgotten. Is that the 3E FR main book?




FRCS = Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. It's the main book for the Realms, yeah. 



> As for the NPC's, Eberron did it better. There are people who are powerful for political reasons, but level-wise they're mostly 5-7th level. That really lets the PC's be the obvious, first-choice heroes of the setting.




The PC's are very much the heroes in my FR game. *shrug*



> My gut feeling is that small-scale, lower-level FR novels can sell just as well as the drearily repetitive apocalypses that seem to beset poor old Faerun every second Thursday. The main problem I see is that the current regular FR novel customers




Heh. My favourite novels are the ones with the small scale and lower levels. Those by Elaine Cunningham, for instance. Give me those anyday! 

Anyway, I think we've sidetracked this thread a little! I'd hate to see the 4th Edition Realms lose most of it's flavour. Heck, I'd rather see the back of the High Level NPC's then lose Waterdeep, Cormyr, Sembia and the Dales as they are now. Gradual change is fine, as the sourcebooks are written in such a way that even people with slightly alternate Realms can make use of them. Most of the time, at least. I've not had the Elven Crusade in my Realms, so I've little use for the new modules. But I've still got use for the likes of Champions of Valour, Magic of Faerún etc. A 100 year jump would likely kill any use for the 4th Edition Realms products in my campaign. Which would be sad.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Sep 11, 2007)

Uzzy said:
			
		

> No. You tell them that Elminster is out of town dealing with Larloch's latest plot. Or the Malaugryms. Or Shades. Or anyone one of the many, many high level evil powers who could annihilate the PC's in one stroke. So the adventurers can deal with the little orc problem, rather then bother someone who has bigger problems to deal with.



Elminster being perpetually out of town requires more suspension of disbelief than hit points do.

If he effectively can't exist in the game world, he needs to be changed or dumped.


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## Fobok (Sep 11, 2007)

Uzzy said:
			
		

> Anyway, I think we've sidetracked this thread a little! I'd hate to see the 4th Edition Realms lose most of it's flavour. Heck, I'd rather see the back of the High Level NPC's then lose Waterdeep, Cormyr, Sembia and the Dales as they are now. Gradual change is fine, as the sourcebooks are written in such a way that even people with slightly alternate Realms can make use of them. Most of the time, at least. I've not had the Elven Crusade in my Realms, so I've little use for the new modules. But I've still got use for the likes of Champions of Valour, Magic of Faerún etc. A 100 year jump would likely kill any use for the 4th Edition Realms products in my campaign. Which would be sad.




So, why not, just like you didn't have an Elven Crusade in your game, not have the 100 year jump forward? Maybe even have a high-level campaign where your players can stop the spellplague. (Once we know more about what it is.) 

I don't think I've ever run a game, in any system, that takes a canon universe and stays canon after the first session. I just pick a point in the timeline where I want to start, and use it to start the setting, and have events run from there based on what the players do.


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## Tharen the Damned (Sep 11, 2007)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> If nothing else, it might encourage the old man to keep his pants buttoned up a little more often in the new edition.




Hah, this is why he should NEVER EVER be the Headmaster of a wizarding school ala Dumbledore. He would be chasing the girls instead of helping the half orc boy with the strange mark on his face. The only male half orc ever to be attack by Tromedlov, the Master of the CCC and still alive....


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## grimslade (Sep 11, 2007)

GSHamster said:
			
		

> That being said, I'd love to see a one-off "Mirror Universe" Forgotten Realms.  That would be pretty cool.




Would everyone have to have goatees to prove they were 'evil'. Would Elminster have no beard?


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## Uzzy (Sep 11, 2007)

> So, why not, just like you didn't have an Elven Crusade in your game, not have the 100 year jump forward? Maybe even have a high-level campaign where your players can stop the spellplague. (Once we know more about what it is.)




Heh. I've no intention of having a 100 Year Jump, but you missed my point which I explained in my previous post. 

While I am not using the Elven Crusade in my Realms, I'm still finding lots of use for various Realms products being released, such as Dragons of Faerún, Magic of Faerún, Power of Faerún. I'm not using the Elven Crusade, but that doesn't stop City of Splendours: Waterdeep from being very useful to me. Infact, many people who have variant, non canonical realms can find uses from the various sourcebooks put out. I'm happy recommending them to friends who play the Forgotten Realms.

If, however, there is a 100 Year Jump, it's effectively become another setting entirely, with none of the flavour of the current realms. Sure, Drizzt and Elminster might still be around, but as I said before, if Waterdeep, Cormyr, Sembia and the Dalelands have been drastically changed, my use for sourcebooks detailing those realms in 4th Edition is nil. This would make me upset, as I quite enjoy buying Forgotten Realms sourcebooks. It is not wise to make new fans by dumping the old ones, as the old fans of a setting are most likely to stick with it.



> Elminster being perpetually out of town requires more suspension of disbelief than hit points do.
> 
> If he effectively can't exist in the game world, he needs to be changed or dumped.




Ed Greenwood, in a Radio Interview, described his role as 'Flavour Text'. That's how I use him. He works well in novels, but ingame? Using him and the other Chosen relentlessly is just poor DMing, by people who don't understand the Realms. He is off fighting threats that the PC's couldn't even hope to stand against. Heck, have Elminster give the PC's a task, if you want. That's how you use him in the Realms.


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## Dire Bare (Sep 11, 2007)

ruleslawyer said:
			
		

> So I take it that you love Bioware with every part of your body (including your pee-pee)?
> 
> Sorry. See, I post on these forums in order to *avoid* playing CRPGs (I've worked out the respective time costs a bit...)




Well, that's nice for you.

But why crap on somebody who comes to these boards who loves TRPGs and CRPGs??


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## William Ronald (Sep 11, 2007)

It is hard to see if there would be a loss of fans of the Realms with a 100 year jump to a very different setting.  I t would seem that people here have different experiences and different perspectives.  We should remember that the views on this board for and against such an idea are a small subset of gamers.  I think one question that WotC has considered or will likely consider is how hard or easy it will be to convert characters to the new setting.  They may also desiere to shake things up a bit, in order to stimulate interest and sales.  Also, some at WotC may feel that certain plot points have reached a dead end.

I don't see WotC separating the Realms from the novels, as the novels are now a much bigger factor at WotC than the campaign setting book.  However, if there is to be a major shake up, make it matter and have the new FRCS book have examples of heroism and how the world has changed.  I imagine that there would be some isles of stability like the Silver Marches, and these would be places of importance and give characters something to look to as they work in more chaotic areas.  Also, I think it should be explained more clearly and shown why the Chosen (or what is left of them) and the various other NPCs are not solving all the problems for the  player characters.  (For example, Elminster should be busy doing something -- researching spells, unravelling the plots of his enemies, and generally acting as an agent for Mystra.  He probably should NOT have much time for most adventurers -- which is where an organization like the Harpers might come in. Similarly, Drizzt should be fairly busy in the Silver Marches or with a few other things.  The NPCs may admire the deeds of the PCs, but the PCs have their own tasks -- which the major NPCs are not really going to be involved in.)

Regardless of the changes to the setting, the focus should be on the PCs as heroes.  They may interact with major NPCs, receive information, give and receive information, and maybe work with them. However, what the major NPCs do, while important, must not be the focus of the setting.  Rather, it should be on the player characters making a difference, just as some of the NPCs have done.   A good DM makes sure that NPCs do not overshadow the players.  I have seen DMs do this, and I have seen DMs pretty much render player characters irreleveant.  I suppose that the Forgotten Realms and any other setting are what you, whether you are a DM or player, make of it.


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## hong (Sep 11, 2007)

Dire Bare said:
			
		

> Well, that's nice for you.
> 
> But why crap on somebody who comes to these boards who loves TRPGs and CRPGs??



 Hey, it's cool. Don't be gettin' heavy with the ruleslaw guy.

(WTF is ruleslaw anyway? A tasty concoction of shredded rules, carrots and mayo?)


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## ruleslawyer (Sep 11, 2007)

Dire Bare said:
			
		

> Well, that's nice for you.
> 
> But why crap on somebody who comes to these boards who loves TRPGs and CRPGs??



Hmm...    

I wasn't actually "crapping" on hong or anyone else who likes CRPGs; just joking, and pointing out the relative uselessness of my post by joking about _my own addiction to the boards_. Not meant to be taken in any derogatory sense whatsoever. I'm a little surprised that it came off that way to you, but if it did to any other CRPG fans, I apologize.


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## Ruin Explorer (Sep 11, 2007)

Uzzy said:
			
		

> Ed Greenwood, in a Radio Interview, described his role as 'Flavour Text'. That's how I use him. He works well in novels, but ingame? Using him and the other Chosen relentlessly is just poor DMing, by people who don't understand the Realms. *He is off fighting threats that the PC's couldn't even hope to stand against*. Heck, have Elminster give the PC's a task, if you want. That's how you use him in the Realms.




The bolded part illustrates _horrible game design_. Particularly if the players can reach similar power levels with time.

If this is really how he is intended to be used, he should strictly stat-free, and treated more as a sort of demigod, rather the Sean Connery with a staff.

If you fail to accept that continually saying "He's fighting threats you couldn't even understand" has a deleterious effect on player morale in most groups, then well, I think that's pretty "out there". The problem is he's a superhero in a non-superheroic setting, and there are a number of other "superheroes" too. It's inappropriate, and the reason they exist is not "flavour text", despite Greenwood's claims, but bad author pet-character-pushing.

If it were otherwise, the authors would ensure their characters were reasonably powered and didn't get in the way of the setting. Instead, they insist on creating giant Marysue Fixififfle Bumblefluff III types and slapping them down in the center of things. As a result of this, the Realms is in sore need of a reboot or mass-culling of unecessary, OP NPCs.


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## ruleslawyer (Sep 11, 2007)

Ruin Explorer said:
			
		

> The bolded part illustrates _horrible game design_. Particularly if the players can reach similar power levels with time.



QFT.


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## Davelozzi (Sep 11, 2007)

I was a huge fan of the Realms in the early days (Grey Box and original FR series of supplements), and I continued to purchase as quality declined through most of the 2e era.  I'll admit that the 3e products seem to be an improvement, but I've only bought a 4-5 of them.

The idea of a 100 year leap and such significant changes as those mentioned here does intrigue me a bit, and may entice me to look at a couple of FR products that I otherwise would have passed on.  After all, there is no way I am going to buy yet another updated version each region with new stats unless things are pretty different.  That said, I don't think it is the best idea, history has shown us that blowing up a campaign world is generally pretty poorly recieved.  As an example, I enjoyed Greyhawk _From the Ashes_ yet the overall public opinion seems to be that it was a disaster that should never have happened.

As for the sample chapter from _The Orc King_, I read it last night and was not impressed.  Granted, my days as a Salvatore fan are long behind me, but the whole idea of the good orc kingdom and the CCC does nothing for me.


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## BlackMoria (Sep 11, 2007)

A number of people wanting a reboot have stated the principal reason is the uber NPCs.

But has been gleaned that Drizzt & Elminister are still around (the Elminister reference is from a blog or some Q&A session with WOTC staffers) in this post Spellplague world.  Who knows how many other NPCs will survive the transition?

For people who are put off by uber NPCs, Drizzt and Elminster are the top of the twinky pile, judging from comments I have heard over the years.  Yet, they will remain.

This tells me that whatever the future holds for the Realms, is will probably be less than satisfactory for a majority of people and only will satisfy a minority.  Those wanting a reboot without the uber NPCs are already going to be disappointed because Drizzt and Eliminster (that we know of) will remain.  Those not wanting the Realms nuked to the point of nearly being unrecognizable will be disappointed.

I like to know what the hell they are thinking in Renton, because based on the limited information to date, the changes are not going to be satisfactory to a whole lot of people, based on comments on this thread.


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## Ruin Explorer (Sep 11, 2007)

Drizzt has never really been a problem, and I'm not sure that anyone in this thread is really complaining about him beyond "Drizzt is extremely lame". He's a high-ish level (but not epic-level, afaik) Ranger, sometimes multiclassed, with some slightly munchkin magical items, one of which I'm sure will be rendered more as a "cohort" than a magical item, these days.

As there's only one of him, and last I checked, he ain't even level 20, and he ain't a wizzzzzzzzzard, nor Chosen, nor anything else horrible, he's just a minor annoyance. Most parties in the mid-late teen levels and beyond cound beat him up and take his stuff, and he's not able to take on things that they ARE able to take on.

That's fine with me. He's a div but he doesn't cause problems beyond making people want to make Drow PCs (even me, once, sniff, I blame being thirteen!).

Elminister could go two ways and easily stop causing trouble:

1) He could have lost all or most of his powers in the "spellplague", and no longer be a "chosen" of Mystra - This is the "Dumbledore" route, basically. He should be dead of old age if it's 100 years, but eh... If he's physically crippled, particularly by old age (which isn't easily curable ), that could help.

2) He could have ascended as some kind of demigod. This also takes him "out of the picture", and would be the most efficient way to be rid of him. Plus he could indulge his appetites in a Zeus-like fashion... best not to think of that...

If, though, we hear:

1) The Seven Sisters

2) Various high ranking Harper-types

3) The Simbul

4) Assorted other chosen of Mystra

5) The Obaskyr family line

6) That filthy spellfire witch

7) Various Knights of Myth Drannor

And so on are all still alive and well, then, yeah, well, it's pretty much buggered, isn't it? I anxiously await further developments.


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## William Ronald (Sep 11, 2007)

I do not have a problem with a setting having powerful NPCs -- rather, what matters is how they are used.  We should also recall that the World of Greyhawk has NPCs like Mordenkainen, Tenser, Robilar, and Rary.

To my mind, most worlds should have people who are more capable than the characters.  Yet, the time may come inside of each individual campaign where the player characters equal or suprass the NPCs of note.  In which case, a DM can decide to retire an NPC, kill of the NPC, or pursue other steps that allow the PCs to handle the threats that the NPCs may have faced in the past.  (In the case of regional NPCs, like Drizzt, this is not as important if a Realms campaign is set near Halruaa or Var the Golden -- far from the Silver Marches.)

In a homebrew campaign, one of my characters ultimately reached the point with the rest of the party that they equalled the power of NPCs handling the major threats.  The NPCs who handled these threats in the past died.  (I ultimately left the campaing do to balance issues, and the DM introducing his own uber-NPCs of the same class and far greater power than my PC.  That and there were balance issues among the player characters that the DM refused to address.  As it stopped being fun, I left.  So, I can understand about having an NPC overshadow a PC, as well as more balanced ways of handling NPCs)

So, in your Realms campaign, Elminster may be supplanted by a PC.  In which case, do with Elminster what you want.  Rather than being forced to rely on canon, it is up to each DM and the players to breathe life into a campaign. It is also up to DMs to chose how they use NPCs -- as the stars of the setting or as part of the background with which characters interact.  In the Realms, I suspect NPCs will be the focus of the novels -- but it is up to each DM to make sure that the focus of a campaign is on the PCs. 

So, I suspect that Elminster and Drizzt will be around in the next FRCS.  However, I think that the focus should be on the player characters. There have been some suggestions on how to handle this.  So, use Elminster and Drizzt as you wish in your version of the Realms -- whether as NPCs who interact with the PCs or as NPCs to kill off.  The choice is yours.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Sep 11, 2007)

William Ronald said:
			
		

> I do not have a problem with a setting having powerful NPCs -- rather, what matters is how they are used.  We should also recall that the World of Greyhawk has NPCs like Mordenkainen, Tenser, Robilar, and Rary.



Fortunately, most of those are Neutral Crazy and support the status quo instead of good, so they're not really motivated to get involved unless it affects them personally or unless every apple cart in town is likely to get overturned. I find their Neutral Crazy alignment to be a bit odd -- especially given how many of them behave this way -- but it makes for a better gaming environment than superheroic good-aligned characters who mysteriously always have to be down at the DMV whenever the villains roll into town.



> So, I suspect that Elminster and Drizzt will be around in the next FRCS.  However, I think that the focus should be on the player characters. There have been some suggestions on how to handle this.  So, use Elminster and Drizzt as you wish in your version of the Realms -- whether as NPCs who interact with the PCs or as NPCs to kill off.  The choice is yours.



I think everyone agrees that DMs can and should keep the focus on the player characters. But in the Realms (and to a lesser extent Krynn), where the novels are big, big draw, having to come up with a reason why they aren't involved over and over again becomes a bit farsical eventually.

Much better would be to tweak Drizzt and Elminster during this jump forward. Maybe Elminster lost people he cared about and has become reclusive and bitter -- and _doesn't_ get over this by the end of the first novel. Maybe Drizzt is wounded or cursed and is less Batman than he once was, and he's NOT the natural figure to step in and solve a problem in the Silver Marches any more.

It's not necessary to have these big name characters set up in a way that's disruptive for DMs. The line editors just need to keep the tabletop game in mind during the development and editing process.


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## William Ronald (Sep 11, 2007)

Different things can happen in a large area, so that would be sufficient to keep Drizzt or another character busy.  

Also, I imagine that if the Realms is shook up greatly, there will be even more reason to keep the big name NPCs busy elsewhere -- with perhaps a hint of what is going on elsewhere.  So, if Elminster needs to keep an eye out of whatever is happening on Myth Drannor, or deal with other problems, that is where he should be.  So, I think a few ready made explanations on what the big name NPCs are usually off doing might help some DMs and add some credibility as to why they are not doing the work of the PCs. (Maybe these can be a few things to give DMs adventure ideas.)

As for the Greyhawk NPCs, I think that since the Flanaess is a busy place with a lot of people, they would still be busy with a bunch of things even if they were all of good alignment.  Remember, not all problems can be solved by blasting it. In some cases, tackling a problem head on can be counterproductive.


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## Mortellan (Sep 11, 2007)

I missed something, who/what are the CCC?


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## William Ronald (Sep 11, 2007)

Mortellan said:
			
		

> I missed something, who/what are the CCC?




Go to http://www.rasalvatore.com/ and read the excerpt of the Orc King set some 100 years from the current Realms timeline.


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## Davelozzi (Sep 11, 2007)

Mortellan said:
			
		

> I missed something, who/what are the CCC?




Spoilers:


Spoiler



They are a KKK-esque racist organization that attacks the orcs wearing black robes and hoods.    Apparently 100 years into the realms future there is peace between the orcs of the Citadel of Many Arrows (under King Azoun VI) and the other races of the area (elves, humans, dwarves) thought it's not necessarily an easy peace as there are plenty of folks on both sides who hang on to the old prejudices.  All of this comes from the prologue chapter of Salvatore's _The Orc King_ linked earlier in this thread.


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## Mortellan (Sep 11, 2007)

Ah this makes more sense now. Wow. Times are a changing indeed.


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## BlackMoria (Sep 11, 2007)

I wish the CCC had the anocrym KKK.  Then I could call them the Knights of the Krispy Kritter.


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## William Ronald (Sep 11, 2007)

BlackMoria said:
			
		

> I wish the CCC had the anocrym KKK.  Then I could call them the Knights of the Krispy Kritter.





See my earlier comments on the Espruar elven font -- an elf would likely use Ks to render that name in our alphapet.  Of course, I would like to see the CCC resembling a krispy kritter -- that kind of had a skydiving accident onto a few hundred upright spears.


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## AdmundfortGeographer (Sep 11, 2007)

William Ronald said:
			
		

> See my earlier comments on the Espruar elven font -- an elf would likely use Ks to render that name in our alphapet.



When did the Espruar font change? I'm looking at the Gray Box's Cyclopedia of the Realms and it shows an Espruar equivalence to the letter C. But the 3e FRCS has it missing. What's with that?


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## Uzzy (Sep 11, 2007)

> The bolded part illustrates horrible game design. Particularly if the players can reach similar power levels with time.




It should really take quite some time for Characters to hit Epic Levels. And heck, Elminsters around 35th level. If your playing a campaign where players can hit that level quickly, then perhaps it is a problem.  



> If this is really how he is intended to be used, he should strictly stat-free, and treated more as a sort of demigod, rather the Sean Connery with a staff.




I've no problem with Elminster's stats being CG Human, Wizard 29. Like they were in the 2nd Edition Campaign Setting. I see his stats as essentially meaningless, save in silly online debates. 



> If you fail to accept that continually saying "He's fighting threats you couldn't even understand" has a deleterious effect on player morale in most groups, then well, I think that's pretty "out there".




It might have an effect in some groups. Those that can't accept that perhaps some people in the world are more powerful then them at this time, for instance. I don't get why players need to feel that they are automatically the top dog in the entire world. 



> If it were otherwise, the authors would ensure their characters were reasonably powered and didn't get in the way of the setting.




I do wish more novels would concentrate on the smaller scale characters too. I get tired of RSE's as well. It doesn't need a 100 year jump to correct that. 



> It's inappropriate, and the reason they exist is not "flavour text", despite Greenwood's claims, but bad author pet-character-pushing.




Ed came up with Elminster when he was 8 years old, along with many thousands of other characters. He has said time and again that Elminster is not his pet character. Infact, Dragon 359 had this to say on that point. 'If he was looking for a wish fulfilment character he'd pick someone younger, saner, more handsome - and a whole lot less dangerous to be, and be around.' I think Ed knows how Ed feels about a character, and he's answered that question consistently for many years now. 



> If, though, we hear:
> 
> 1) The Seven Sisters
> 2) Various high ranking Harper-types
> ...




Given the current Realms setting as per Shadowdale: The Scouring of the Land. Spoilers!

1) Sylune's Dead. Laeral is busy being pregnant with her twins. The Simbul is busy ruling Aglarond. Alustriel is busy running Silverymoon. Qilue is busy running the Eilistraeen faith. That leaves Storm and Dove, who are both busy protecting Myth Drannor with the KoMD. So out of those seven, only Storm and Dove might reasonably be encountered in adventures.
2) Such as? The Code of the Harpers shows that the active Harpers are between Levels 5 and 12, mostly. The ones in charge are a high level, such as Cylyria Dragonbreast, 26th Level Bard. But she's not one who will be going on adventurers, as she's busy managing both Twilight Hall (and by extension a lot of Harper activity) and Berdusk. 
3) See point 1. 
4) Khelben's dead. Elminster is 'gravely wounded and hidden somewhere recovering', according to Shadowdale. 
5) There's a Regent in charge. The next king is a young boy. The Royal Magician is new to the job, and still finding her feet. The Obarskyr line is in quite a bit of danger, if you ask me. Danger that the PC's may very well need to help stop. 
6) Long dead. 
7) Busy protecting Myth Drannor. 



> but it makes for a better gaming environment than superheroic good-aligned characters who mysteriously always have to be down at the DMV whenever the villains roll into town.




*sigh* For every 'Superheroic' Good Aligned NPC, there are about ten Supervillianous Evil Aligned NPC's. Once again, I point you to 'The Concerns of the Mighty', Page 84, FRCS. It's explained quite clearly there. It's also explained quite clearly in the thread I linked to in a previous post. I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question.


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## Mouseferatu (Sep 11, 2007)

Davelozzi said:
			
		

> Spoilers:
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...




You know, I realize that the metaphor is a bit heavy-handed--but I have to admit, I like the basic idea as a plot point. In a relatively new peace between races formerly in conflict, this sort of organization is certainly a viable possibility. And I think they make for interesting villains.

That said, I do agree that 



Spoiler



the initials CCC, and the robes-and-hoods combo, is probably taking things a bit too far. I don't find it offensive, but I do think it could've been more imaginative.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Sep 11, 2007)

Uzzy said:
			
		

> *sigh* For every 'Superheroic' Good Aligned NPC, there are about ten Supervillianous Evil Aligned NPC's. Once again, I point you to 'The Concerns of the Mighty', Page 84, FRCS. It's explained quite clearly there. It's also explained quite clearly in the thread I linked to in a previous post. I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question.



Then maybe you should cut back on the snideness and cute responses and read what people are saying.

One more time: It's a load of crap for someone to ALWAYS be busy, especially if something is happening in their town. If the NPCs in question are really good aligned, the notion that they will let evil go by right under their noses, because the PCs, or someone, will take care of it, then they're not good-aligned any more.

Now, if you have players who think this is A-OK -- and honestly, a lot of the folks on this thread insisting it's not a problem come off as FR readers, not DMs or players -- swell. But it's not a personal moral failing of the players or a failure of the DM if, eventually, the players roll their eyes when they hear the reason they have to go clean up the backyard of one of the Forgotten Realms' superheroes is that said superheroes are busy with something elsewhere _again_.

Unless Elminster only has a Shadowdale home address for tax purposes, he's got to be home at some point.

I've read "Concerns of the Mighty." I own (and like) the FRCS. But the "Concerns of the Mighty" sidebar is a sop and, frankly, doesn't really work in actual play.

But like the oWoD, the Forgotten Realms has a ton of people who buy game books to read them, not play them. Naturally, they encounter few problems in actual play.


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## Jared Rascher (Sep 11, 2007)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> Then maybe you should cut back on the snideness and cute responses and read what people are saying.
> 
> One more time: It's a load of crap for someone to ALWAYS be busy, especially if something is happening in their town. If the NPCs in question are really good aligned, the notion that they will let evil go by right under their noses, because the PCs, or someone, will take care of it, then they're not good-aligned any more.
> 
> ...





I'm glad to know that you are so in tune with people running Realms campaigns.  I've run Forgotten Realms campaigns for 20 years, and I've never had a problem with the idea that a handfull of really high level characters can't defend an entire continent by themselves.  

I guess Merlin handled all of the problems everywhere in Camelot as well.

But yeah, its great that you know so well how every person that runs a Realms campaign is running it.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Sep 11, 2007)

KnightErrantJR said:
			
		

> I'm glad to know that you are so in tune with people running Realms campaigns.  I've run Forgotten Realms campaigns for 20 years, and I've never had a problem with the idea that a handfull of really high level characters can't defend an entire continent by themselves.
> 
> I guess Merlin handled all of the problems everywhere in Camelot as well.
> 
> But yeah, its great that you know so well how every person that runs a Realms campaign is running it.



I never said I did. Are you going to say that _your_ experience speaks for everyone playing the Forgotten Realms?

All I was saying is that experiences vary, a notion Uzzy has repeatedly sneered at.


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## Irda Ranger (Sep 12, 2007)

William Ronald said:
			
		

> Also, I imagine that if the Realms is shook up greatly, there will be even more reason to keep the big name NPCs busy elsewhere -- with perhaps a hint of what is going on elsewhere.  So, if Elminster needs to keep an eye out of whatever is happening on Myth Drannor, or deal with other problems, that is where he should be.



Hmmm ... slight tangent, but I think that the 'quick leveling' of 3e (which apparently will be worse in 4e), with no to little 'down time' between adventures (other than whatever time it takes the wizard to transmogrify dungeon swag into +4 Cloaks of Resistance) contributes to the player's expectations that major NPC's should often be available.  After all, adventures usually take a week or two, right? Shouldn't he be back by now?

J.R.R. Tolkien doesn't make a big deal of it, but some of the 'adventures' that the main characters took prior to Frodo's journey took _years_.  According to the Wikipedia timeline, Aragorn and Gandalf spend 17 years looking for Gollumn / trying to track down the history of Bilbo's ring (perhaps not 'full time', but still ...).  In David Edding's books Belgarath the Eternal Man (and the other Apostles of Aldur) was known to become involved in tasks that occupied his attention for centuries at a time.  Unless the world was literally about to end, it wasn't worth his time.  Magical research came first.

Maybe the best way to handle Elminster is just to have him _really_ distant.  Like, the PC's show up in Shadowdale and the locals mentioned that no one has seen hide or hair of Elminster in going on fifteen years now.  There's one unlucky geezer who's lived in the village his whole life (64 years) and never met the man, always being out of town when "the Sage" makes one of his rare appearances.  Maybe there's a doorbell on the tower that says "Ring if Apocalypse Imminent", and local stories tell of the noble Ambassador sent from Amn who lost a hand about twenty years ago having pulled on the rope for a lesser reason.  Elminster is "Good" (he'll show up if the Apocalypse actually is imminent, and try to stop it), but because of his point of view (immortality, consort with Gods, etc.) most things that 'normal' people consider really important (like the sacking of Cormyr) are just the ebb and flow of history to him.  It's a bit like watching the tide come in and out.  

I know the above argument is going to get the reaction that "that's not really 'good' then", but my only explanation would be "good and evil, like many things, depend on your point of view."

Naturally this works best using Ruin Explorer's "no stats; he's a demi-god" scenario.


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## William Ronald (Sep 12, 2007)

Can we have maybe a little more light and a little less heat in this thread.  I don't want to see a blow up that will cause the moderators to shut things down.

I guess this is something where your miles may vary.  I have pretty much been in home brews with an occassional trip into the Realms or Greyhawk.

However, I think that we can agree that DMs will handle things differently.  I don't see a bunch of high level good characters as an inherent flaw in a setting.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Sep 12, 2007)

Irda Ranger said:
			
		

> Maybe the best way to handle Elminster is just to have him _really_ distant.  Like, the PC's show up in Shadowdale and the locals mentioned that no one has seen hide or hair of Elminster in going on fifteen years now.  There's one unlucky geezer who's lived in the village his whole life (64 years) and never met the man, always being out of town when "the Sage" makes one of his rare appearances.  Maybe there's a doorbell on the tower that says "Ring if Apocalypse Imminent", and local stories tell of the noble Ambassador sent from Amn who lost a hand about twenty years ago having pulled on the rope for a lesser reason.



I like Elminister as a recluse. I think this solves most of the problems. But his depiction in the novels would have to match.

A jump forward (whether 10 or 100 years) would be a natural breakpoint to emphasize this aspect of his personality.


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## AdmundfortGeographer (Sep 12, 2007)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> I like Elminister as a recluse.



I know folks bring up Greyhawk as having powerful uber wizards, but the organization created by Mordenkainen was aggressively neutral. It is easier, I think, to say that the uber group doesn't want to get involved when they are intentionally ambiguous or non-committal. Some have called Mordenkainen's stance as militant neutrality. Kind of a "don't bother me, I don't care about you" is more believable when they are neutral.

If El drifted to neutrality like Mordenkainen, reclusiveness and detachment from affairs would go down _better_.


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## grimslade (Sep 12, 2007)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> I like Elminister as a recluse. I think this solves most of the problems. But his depiction in the novels would have to match.
> 
> A jump forward (whether 10 or 100 years) would be a natural breakpoint to emphasize this aspect of his personality.




I like Elminster as a recluse too, makes him even more like Gandalf though. A benevolent divine agent who shows up to push heroes in the right direction and to throw down when there is need. Most times he's off researching the origins of orc haiku for glimpses of prophecy and hitting the astral club scene, romancing anything with legs. <shudder>


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## Sunderstone (Sep 12, 2007)

KnightErrantJR said:
			
		

> I'm glad to know that you are so in tune with people running Realms campaigns.  I've run Forgotten Realms campaigns for 20 years, and I've never had a problem with the idea that a handfull of really high level characters can't defend an entire continent by themselves.
> 
> I guess Merlin handled all of the problems everywhere in Camelot as well.
> 
> But yeah, its great that you know so well how every person that runs a Realms campaign is running it.




As an FR DM since the grey box, im with Whizbang on this. From the looks of more than a few posts here, others feel the same. Alot of us even like the idea of the reboot.

Here's a sample of some of the major changes I made to my FR, due to all the novels and superheroes before I gave up on the setting......

*The Simbul of Aglarond* - Mysteriously catatonic. This kept secret from most of Aglarond.
*Elminster* - Out worldwalking (yet again). Looking for a cure for the Simbul.
*Lady Alustriel of Silverymoon and Drizzt Do'Urden * - Missing upon the last visit by Drizzt. No one has seen her or Drizzt leave Silverymoon. Some anti- Drizzt drow propaganda has circulated quietly.
*Halaster Blackcloak and Undermountain * - Removed, neither exists.
*Zhentarim* - Fzoul Chembryl and the Banites maintain firm control over the Black Network. The Cyricists have all but been eradicated from Darkhold. A few Cyricists remain as spies pretending to be Banites. Sememmon and Ashemmi remain deserters and have no plans to return to the Black Network.
*The Shadovar * - The events that transpired at Evereska remain. The melting of the High Ice has not happened and the Shades have no plans of staying in Anauroch. The Battle at Tilverton happened but for the simpler reason of Conquest. 
Shade had wanted to establish a foothold in the centrally-located Cormyr. Since the destruction of Tilverton, Shade has retreated to Anauroch once more. Currently the Shadowvar are disturbingly quiet as they continue to gather intelligence in utmost secrecy, preferring to kill themselves over capture. 
*The Drow * - The War of The Spider Queen has not happened. Lolth is still active. The events at Ched Nasad did occur however, with the smaller houses still making a bold attempt to seize power in a coup. Menzoberranzan however, has never been under siege. The Jaezred Chaulssin have always existed in secret and continue to hatch plots (one of which was the recent slave uprising) against the predominantly female menzoberranyr hierarchy in efforts to undermine their control.  Lolth continues to watch these events unfold to see if her subjects are worthy of survival and her attention all the while reveling in the chaos of these events.
*King Obould * - King Obould maintains a firm grasp of his humanoid hordes in the Spine of the World having lost the Citadel of Many Arrows. He has since set his sights on Mithril Hall as its location is closer and easier than striking in the middle of the Silver Marches to reclaim Citadel Felbarr. The Dwarves of Mithril Hall are largely unaware of the coming storm, but they have noticed increased humanoid and giant activity in the area.


I have alot more changes on another txt file but you get the picture. Too many RSEs and Super heroes from the novels indeed.

On a side note I always wanted to run City of the Spider Queen but decided against it. My players and I talked about it afterwards and their comments went like  "If we failed to stop her (Irae T'sarran, the bbeg iirc), its not like Elminster would let the undead run amok in the dales anyway." 
Only one of my players even reads the novels but only the Drizzt books. He also agrees that there are too many superpowered folks to make anything epic for PCs look believable.


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## William Ronald (Sep 12, 2007)

Elminster could still be good, but might be a bit more careful of involving people in his plans if a few friends died when a plan went horrifically bad.  So, he might turn into more of an advisor, and working behind the scenes.

He could move more from the old wizard in the tower to someone working closely with an organization like the Harpers.  So, keeping Elminster busy in a new setting, and making sure that people know he is busy might be a good idea.  Maybe give the Sage role to another character, who is primarily a sage and source of information.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Sep 12, 2007)

Eric Anondson said:
			
		

> I know folks bring up Greyhawk as having powerful uber wizards, but the organization created by Mordenkainen was aggressively neutral. It is easier, I think, to say that the uber group doesn't want to get involved when they are intentionally ambiguous or non-committal. Some have called Mordenkainen's stance as militant neutrality. Kind of a "don't bother me, I don't care about you" is more believable when they are neutral.
> 
> If El drifted to neutrality like Mordenkainen, reclusiveness and detachment from affairs would go down _better_.



The irony is that, in the real world, powerful forces that uphold the status quo -- which is what Militant Neutral does, effectively -- are seen as the bad guys.

But yeah, that's a much more gameable powerful NPC to have around. Heck, it even allows Mordy and company to be used as villains without them having to start whacking their buddies and head off to the Bright Desert for a bunch of years.


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## Uzzy (Sep 12, 2007)

Sure, people's experiences vary. They often have poor DM's, who have not read the FRCS, including 'Concerns of the Mighty'. I'm curious as to what part of that sidebar you don't understand, Whizbang. 



> One more time: It's a load of crap for someone to ALWAYS be busy, especially if something is happening in their town. If the NPCs in question are really good aligned, the notion that they will let evil go by right under their noses, because the PCs, or someone, will take care of it, then they're not good-aligned any more.




Alright. So everyday Elminster is in Shadowdale he systematically wipes out all the evil threats in the area for a few years, letting the people there live in peace and prosperity. Then he hears word of a Shade plot the other side of Faerún, and goes off to deal with that. Shadowdale, with it's only experienced defender gone, is easy pickings for Fzoul and his Zhentarim, who have engineered the situation, ensuring Elminster hears of the Shade plot. Elminster returns after a couple of tendays to discover Shadowdale conquered, it's people enslaved and a large Zhent army encamped and waiting for El to return. 

Elminster may be good aligned, but he's not stupid. He knows fully well he can't solve everything, and even if he did, that would simply make him a Tyrant. Something he doesn't want to be. Furthermore, he knows he can't always be there, so other heroes need to step up to the plate to ensure Shadowdale doesn't fall to the first band of orcs. Additionally, his solving of everything would lower the overall level of magic in the Realms, with many in Shadowdale not seeing the point of learning the Art in order to protect themselves, as Elminster's there to do it for them. Strife brings about new Art, more mages, more power for Mystra. Not that Elminster would engineer strife, of course. 



> As an FR DM since the grey box, im with Whizbang on this. From the looks of more than a few posts here, others feel the same. Alot of us even like the idea of the reboot.




Well met Sunderstone. Yes, many here have said a reboot would make them interested in the Realms. I'm not denying that. My point is that a reboot would lose a lot of fans of the current Realms, who are essential to keeping the Realms going. This is a social activity, after all, and there is no better incentive to buy a new Realms sourcebook then your group mentioning it favourably. It's the best advertisement I can think of! A rebooted Realms would offer nothing to me. I'm sure even in your variant Realms, you could find uses for many of the current Sourcebooks, no?


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## humble minion (Sep 12, 2007)

If it were up to me, there's a passably simple method I'd use for dealing with uber-NPC syndrome.

Basically, the Chosen are the ones who are the main problem.  Drizzt is only one guy with no magic, and whatever you think about the novels, he's only got a 5ft reach and (since he has no wizards in the party, the careless fool!) is generally limited to getting where he needs to go by foot.  He isn't going to be a major political power any time soon.  Cormyr, as pointed out above, is a keg of political gunpowder and any 'named' characters there have got their hands full trying to hold onto their heads.  Khelben is gone, Halaster is gone, Shandril is gone, Manshoon (or his various clones) is still spending his time fighting amongst himself, the Simbul (when used properly) is basically the only thing holding the Aglarond line against all of Thay at once, and so hardly has time to be blipping all over the Realms on a regular basis.

The anonymous, disposable main characters of recent RSE novels are still there on the whole, but realistically nobody's going to notice if they fade away never to be mentioned again.  Quick, without looking it up, can anyone tell me the name of the unspeakably naff hero from the Return of the Archwizards series?  The Threat From The Sea series?  Thought not.

So, the way I'd do it is have the Weave/Shadow Weave conflict come to a head.  Shar takes on Mystra, and like matter and antimatter this results in them both going foom.  Mystra is gone, dead, annihilated, and the same with Shar - except for the measure of power they entrusted to their respective Chosen.  So, Elminster, Alustriel, and the rest are now the anchors of the Weave.  If they die, the consequences for magic across the Realms will be catastrophic.  So in campaign setting terms, they become liabilities to be protected rather than assets.  They CAN'T go out adventuring - even a demon lord wandering around, or Thay conquering Mulhorand, or the Crypt of Sleeping Lizards awakening is less of a threat to the stability of the Realms than risking Qilue or someone getting ganked and having the Weave further destabilised.  They basically have to stay reclusive and heavily warded, and work through emissaries - Elminster once more becomes a stay-at-home sage and Alustriel will have to return her focus to Silver Marches politics (all as nature intended!)  

Now, I'm aware there's more than a little bit of irony in my using an RSE to accomplish this after having bemoaned them so much earlier in this thread (and it's something that might be best handled off-screen and then left as a mystery for PCs to discover the details of), but this would accomplish a number of things.
- Iconic Realms NPCs stay alive and accessible for setting fans, but no longer do PC-type stuff
- Timeline need not be advanced too far, and major political units remain recognisable and in place, if rather more precariously so, so ongoing campaigns are not messed with too much
- many good-aligned regions (the Dales, Silver Marches, etc) suddenly lose their 'big guns', with destabilisation/fragmentation inevitably resulting "But WHY won't Lady Alustriel come out of her palace and save our village from the dragon?!", leaving a darker (dare I say points-of-lightier!) setting with more for PCs to do
- 3e's overwhelming and slightly tedious focus on Shar and the Shades as bad guys can be toned down, since they're in the same boat as the good guys re: the Shadow Weave

Sure, there's problems (what to do with clerics of Shar or Mystra, for one!) but if I could come up with this after thinking for two minutes, surely WotC could, _if they wanted to_, find a way to reboot the Realms without such a massive overturning of all things familiar as seems to be the current plan.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Sep 12, 2007)

Uzzy said:
			
		

> Sure, people's experiences vary. They often have poor DM's, who have not read the FRCS, including 'Concerns of the Mighty'. I'm curious as to what part of that sidebar you don't understand, Whizbang.



I'm curious why you think that, because my opinion differs from yours, I didn't understand something.


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## Uzzy (Sep 12, 2007)

Because the sidebar 'Concerns of the Mighty' explains quite clearly WHY Elminster and the other Chosen don't go out to destroy each and every evil being in Faerún. It's right there in the FRCS, in black and white. I even linked to a great explanation over at the WoTC boards. Yet people continue to complain about Elminster and the other Chosen. It's either stubbornness or a misunderstanding. If you'd like, I'd be happy to go through Concerns of the Mighty with you. 

If a DM in Greyhawk used Mordenkainen wrongly, and had him interfering with PC's plans in the name of neutrality, we would rightly call that bad DMing. If a DM in Dragonlance had Raistlin pop up and consistently save the day, making the PC's obsolete, we would rightly call that bad DMing. Yet misusing the big NPC's in the Realms is not referred to as such, it's referred to as problems in the setting, despite the quite clear explanations given in the FRCS itself. 

Perhaps it's like the continual 'Elminster is Ed Greenwood's Mary-Sue' fallacy though. No amount of proof will convince people. No amount of Ed pointing out simple things like the fact he was eight when he made Elminster will convince them.


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## Baby Samurai (Sep 12, 2007)

Uzzy said:
			
		

> Elminster and the other Chosen don't go out to destroy each and every evil being in Faerún.




In my buddy's ongoing _FR _ campaign, everybody has their own Realms, that has been going for about 18 years, Elminster was slain by Asmodeus around the timeline just after the Yamun Kahan/Azoun/Horde fiasco.

In my _FR_ campaign Elminster is still alive and kicking, but Drizzt is working as rough trade on the streets of Calimport.


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## Uzzy (Sep 12, 2007)

> In my buddy's ongoing FR  campaign, everybody has their own Realms, that has been going for about 18 years, Elminster was slain by Asmodeus around the timeline just after the Yamun Kahan/Azoun/Horde fiasco.




And that's great! Make the Realms your own, I say. If you want to remove Elminster, go for it. If you want to start a civil war in Cormyr, then do it. I can't stop what you do in your homegame. Heck, my own Realms is a variant. 

One of my reasons to be upset about this possible 100 year advance is that it makes most of the 4th Edition Realms sourcebooks useless to me. Many people make the Realms their own, tweaking parts to suit themselves and their players better. But still, they can find use from the Sourcebooks, no? You might not have Elminster, but you can still find use from Code of the Harpers. You might not have Undermountain, but that doesn't mean that City of Splendours: Waterdeep is useless to you. If, however, I'm still playing around 1375 DR, an Empire of Netheril sourcebook set a hundred years later is useless. 

The 100 year advance, if it follows most of what Drizzt said, will remove much of the flavour of the Realms, which is what I enjoy the most. They seem to be doing this to attract new fans, which is always good, but not when it's at the expense of many of the current fans of the setting.


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## Mortellan (Sep 12, 2007)

The Concerns of the Mighty angle is quite convincing. I might put a new spin on the hate of FR's NPCs however. Take it with a grain of salt, I'm probably off by a mile. Anyhow, it is not that NPCs are stealing the spotlight directly from PCs, it's that these NPCs which have been meticulously detailed and glamorized in novels, sourcebooks and video games to the point where they have set the bar rather high for players. It's the envy factor. Mind you, Greyhawk has its share of unattainables too in the Circle of Eight and the dozens of quasi/hero deities. This is what I've seen in my campaigns. I do not even have to use Mordenkainen directly, but to name drop him results in sneers and jeers. Why? He never swooped in and 'stole their kill', he never hired them for a quest nor so muh as personally met their characters. It's because they know the unwritten, unspoken rule of campaigns say DMs should not let their characters advance ahead of these iconic figures. The reason? I believe one reason is the game breaks down fast once PCs are the same plateau as Mordenkainen or Elminster. This is why many high level PCs are forced into retirement and why Epic level play in most editions never really worked good. I've read on the forums many times that alot of people's campaigns never get over 15th level for example. I don't think thats a coincidence and its probably why they are tweaking the levels in 4e. 
To reiterate, players are shown in the uber-NPCs what they can aspire to be, but the goal is often too lofty and unrealistic for the game system employed. It's like young adults aspiring to be supermodels or professional athletes while at the same time resenting these figures and looking for ways to tear them down if they can't achieve their goal.


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## Majoru Oakheart (Sep 12, 2007)

William Ronald said:
			
		

> As for the Greyhawk NPCs, I think that since the Flanaess is a busy place with a lot of people, they would still be busy with a bunch of things even if they were all of good alignment.  Remember, not all problems can be solved by blasting it. In some cases, tackling a problem head on can be counterproductive.



The problem is, you can make up a lot of reasons why they might be elsewhere, but there is a certain list of problems that you just wouldn't be able explain away.

For instance, your plot requires that one of the enemies is planning something that will destroy the weave on the whole planet rendering magic unusable.  Only, you can't use this plot because there's almost NOTHING you could explain as being more important to Elminster than this.

Plus, when you start having wizards of Elminster's power level, you can't really use "he's far away right now" or "he doesn't know about it" as excuses as he has a network of friends, spies, magical protections, and any number of other things in nearly every city in the Realms that informs him.  And he has teleportation and planeshifting magic to get wherever he wants in an instant.  He's THAT cool.  That's why he's Elminster.

The same thing would happen if you suddenly made any of the major NPCs in Greyhawk good.  There is basically no reason you could come up with why Mord himself wouldn't show up to almost anything 15+ level in scale as these sort of things start threatening countries or entire sections of the Flanaess.  If he's a good guy, he'll want to stop them.

You can use the whole "there are 100 threats for the 100 powerful adventures out there" argument as well.  However, it makes the PCs not feel special.  Instead of the heroes of the planet who are the ONLY hope should something go wrong, they are instead one of a "police force" of adventurers out there continually saving the world.  If they fail, and the situation becomes REALLY dire then Elminster or Blackstaff or Simbul or....insert any number of other people will likely come to fix it.  At least ONE of them's bound to have the day off, right?


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## Majoru Oakheart (Sep 12, 2007)

Uzzy said:
			
		

> Because the sidebar 'Concerns of the Mighty' explains quite clearly WHY Elminster and the other Chosen don't go out to destroy each and every evil being in Faerún. It's right there in the FRCS, in black and white. I even linked to a great explanation over at the WoTC boards. Yet people continue to complain about Elminster and the other Chosen. It's either stubbornness or a misunderstanding. If you'd like, I'd be happy to go through Concerns of the Mighty with you.



I understand it fine.  I just don't AGREE with it.  There's a difference.  To me it reads "We couldn't think of a better excuse, so this is the only one we've got".  I mean, it works as an excuse, but not ALL the time and not for everything.



			
				Uzzy said:
			
		

> If a DM in Greyhawk used Mordenkainen wrongly, and had him interfering with PC's plans in the name of neutrality, we would rightly call that bad DMing. If a DM in Dragonlance had Raistlin pop up and consistently save the day, making the PC's obsolete, we would rightly call that bad DMing. Yet misusing the big NPC's in the Realms is not referred to as such, it's referred to as problems in the setting, despite the quite clear explanations given in the FRCS itself.



Mord and The Circle HAVE been known to show up and meddle with things in the name of Neutrality.  They don't do it often and when they meddle it rarely makes sense to the people around them WHY they meddled, but they DO meddle.  It's just that their concerns are only for their own schemes and their own power.  That's because they are Neutral though, they stay out of things.  Raistlin was evil for a large amount of time and was obsessed with gaining power over anything else.  He's not the type who would do the hero thing and butt in on the PCs business.

Elminster's different in that every book he's in has him teleporting all over the world saving people, stopping evil plots.  In the Time of Troubles novel he even had time to show up, stop a spell from going haywire then teleport out again to fix more things.

What it comes down to is most of the time it's the PCs job to stop the Evil guys from doing Evil.  That's also Elminster's job and he's better at it than the PCs are.  A LOT better at it.  It's also Drizzt's job, and a lot of other heroes.  All of whom are better than the PCs.  If an evil wizard is threatening to destroy Ten-Towns and Drizzt isn't around to stop him within a couple of weeks, it doesn't make much sense.


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## hopeless (Sep 12, 2007)

*Hmm...*



			
				grimslade said:
			
		

> I like Elminster as a recluse too, makes him even more like Gandalf though. A benevolent divine agent who shows up to push heroes in the right direction and to throw down when there is need. Most times he's off researching the origins of orc haiku for glimpses of prophecy and hitting the astral club scene, romancing anything with legs. <shudder>




it might work better for him to adopt disguises so the party especially don't realise who he is and to make his enemies keep wondering where he is.

Sort of becoming that bedraggled old man who provides some advice that the pc's don't understand until they find themselves in an adventure and suddenly realise what that crazy old fool was talking about... I guess alot less of a lothario and much more of a ... dungeonmaster!


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## PaulKemp (Sep 12, 2007)

Majoru Oakheart said:
			
		

> I understand it fine.  I just don't AGREE with it.  There's a difference.  To me it reads "We couldn't think of a better excuse, so this is the only one we've got".  I mean, it works as an excuse, but not ALL the time and not for everything.




See, I find it persuasive and here's the reason.  In any given day, Elminster (or any high powered individual we'd care to name) sleeps, eats, hits the loo, smokes his pipe, prepares his spells, tends his garden, discusses the weather with friends, plays a game of chess, reads a book, and generally lives his life.  The notion that he dots around the Realms resetting hundreds of contingency spells, spends hours cutting through the defensive wards of hundreds of high level "evil" powerful beings so that he can scry them, learn of their plots, then generally foul and foil such plots is silly.  He's a man.  A powerful man, but a man nevertheless, with all that that implies.  I think we tend to regard NPCs like Elminster the way we might regard the POV character in a video game -- he never tires, he never eats/sleeps/relaxes, he never simply takes a moment to live, and his mind has limitless capacity for containing, keeping straight, and accurately evaluating information.  All of that is wrong.  He's just a powerful wizard with a big reputation.  The idea that he would constantly overshadow PCs is baffling to me.  Given his limits as a man and the enormous amount of activity going on in the world at any time, I find it highly implausible in most cases that he would have any idea what was transpiring with the PCs, even if their quest were a high-level one.  I take your point about an attack on the Weave.  Were that to occur, given the assumptions of the setting, I think Elminister might get involved at some point.  But barring that or an attack on Shadowdale, I just don't see him as much of a factor.   





			
				Majoru Oakheart said:
			
		

> What it comes down to is most of the time it's the PCs job to stop the Evil guys from doing Evil.  That's also Elminster's job and he's better at it than the PCs are.  A LOT better at it.  It's also Drizzt's job, and a lot of other heroes.  All of whom are better than the PCs.  If an evil wizard is threatening to destroy Ten-Towns and Drizzt isn't around to stop him within a couple of weeks, it doesn't make much sense.




But I see the logic of this position applying to the PCs at any level in any setting.  Shouldn't the first level PCs feel helpless and stupid in stopping the rampaging troll in the city streets?  After all, the town guard with its fourth level sergeant, a man vastly more powerful than the PCs, soon will arrive to set matters aright.  If not him, then surely the senior priest in the local temple will manage affairs.  Perhaps the PCs should simply accept the fact that they are merely little fish in the big pond of the world and head back to their farms to till the fields.  

All of this strikes me not unlike saying, "I don't want to adventure in the Young Kingdoms because Elric can kick my ass," same goes for Conan and his world, for Nehwon and Fafhrd and the Mouser, etc.


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## Athenon (Sep 12, 2007)

Thank you Paul for a GREAT post!


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Sep 12, 2007)

Uzzy said:
			
		

> It's either stubbornness or a misunderstanding.



Or a difference of opinion. Instead of reposting the same thing over and over again, actually read what folks' complaints are. The sidebar _does not work in many groups after the first two or three times_.

Either re-read what people's actual complaints are, instead of assuming they're just ignorant of the Divine Truth of the Sidebar, or drop it.


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## Davelozzi (Sep 12, 2007)

PaulKemp said:
			
		

> Shouldn't the first level PCs feel helpless and stupid in stopping the rampaging troll in the city streets?




I don't know about stupid, but they should feel pretty helpless, the troll is CR 5.


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## AdmundfortGeographer (Sep 12, 2007)

Davelozzi said:
			
		

> I don't know about stupid, but they should feel pretty helpless, the troll is CR 5.



That's funny. I was thinking the same thing.


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## PaulKemp (Sep 12, 2007)

Eric Anondson said:
			
		

> That's funny. I was thinking the same thing.




How about:  "Shouldn't they consider it pointless and stupid to try to stop the troll rampaging through the city streets?  After all...."

Sheesh.  Tough crowd.


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## GSHamster (Sep 12, 2007)

Part of the problem with Elminster is that he's not just a powerful wizard, he's a Chosen of Mystra, etc.  He breaks the rules, or the rules warp to accomodate him.  Realistically, the PCs have no chance to get to his power level.

Also, being told that Elminster can't help you because what you are doing is unimportant, is demoralizing.  And it implies that if it were actually important, he'd come in and save the day.

Driz'zt is a different matter.  He's closer to mortal, and his own problems are on a much more local scale. Most people don't like Driz'zt more because people kept rolling drow with 2 scimitars, not because of his power level.

Heh, in some ways the problem is with _teleport_ and information gathering spells.  If Elminster doesn't come and help, you know that it's because he chose not to, that it wasn't worth his time, not that he couldn't reach the area in time, or was unaware of the problem.  If he couldn't arrive in time, then it would be up to the PCs to defeat the enemy.


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## BadMojo (Sep 12, 2007)

Majoru Oakheart said:
			
		

> For instance, your plot requires that one of the enemies is planning something that will destroy the weave on the whole planet rendering magic unusable.  Only, you can't use this plot because there's almost NOTHING you could explain as being more important to Elminster than this.




An attack of this magnitude would seem like the stuff high level adventures are made of.  It wouldn't be something where I'd think Mystra would ring up the nearest 1st level adventuring party.

If a group of high level or near-Epic level PCs is working to stop the destruction of the Weave, why couldn't they work in concert with Elminster?  It can easily be a scenario where there are multiple battles all over Faerun would need to be fought.  Even a Big Name FR NPC (except maybe Manshoon) can be several places at once.

Elminster is certainly not infallible.  He could be tricked or delayed by a very powerful enemy.

As a player, I really don't feel the need to be the most powerful entity in the entire setting.

Another way to look at things is this:  FR NPC's tend to be a tempermental, flaky lot.  Much like a large corporation, the various groups like the Chosen, Khelben's group (forgot the name) or the Harpers may be too busy arguiing internally and among the various power groups to act quickly enough.  It may sound silly, but this sort of behavior would fit with our "real world" history.

Besides, Elminster would probably be halfway across the multiverse handcuffed to a bedpost.


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## BadMojo (Sep 12, 2007)

GSHamster said:
			
		

> Part of the problem with Elminster is that he's not just a powerful wizard, he's a Chosen of Mystra, etc.  He breaks the rules, or the rules warp to accomodate him.  Realistically, the PCs have no chance to get to his power level.




I know the canon-osity of the Chosen for other dieties has been questioned, but I can easily see a high level PC being a Chosen...just not of Mystra.  No open positions.  Yet.


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## Ruin Explorer (Sep 12, 2007)

Uzzy said:
			
		

> *sigh* For every 'Superheroic' Good Aligned NPC, there are about ten Supervillianous Evil Aligned NPC's.




No, there aren't. At least not in any of the FR books I've seen. Most of the "villainous" NPCs are far from superpowered, and most of them are severely inactive or "spiders in their web"-types.

I think your "Elminster should be level 35 if the PCs can reach 30!" idea shows that you don't, and are perhaps incapable of, understanding why a stat'd NPC is always worse than one without stats, if he's genuinely intended to be used for "flavour". I'll try though - if you take the stats out, the game only improves. That's all that happens. It gets better. You don't need those stats for anything.

No-one needs Elminster's stats. Seriously. You don't. If you're personally putting him an adventure in a position where he'll need stats beyond GM fiat, you and about three others have already told us that you're a "bad GM" for doing so, so clearly that's not a reason, and what, you can't MAKE UP the stats now?

Your example of "why the NPCs can't help" are limited, I'm afraid, because they're all cases of "they can't help at this precise moment, but could soon!", which has always been the problem - we need things that take the NPCs out for DECADES, not nine months. I mean, Elminister is screwed up, but how long is it going to take for him to "get over it"? Not freakin' long, I imagine. The Seven Sisters, several of who are psychopaths who have no right to have "G" anywhere in their alignment can all potentially get out of their complications within days, weeks, or months at the most.

The problem with the FR is not so much "individual adventures". Yeah, it's eaaaaasy to come up with an individual adventure where none of these jerks (and most of them actually _are _ jerks, to judge from the books/descriptions, even by PC standards) would have a reason to become involved, but as you continue to play in the Realms, two problems potentially emerge:

1) Sweeping epic campaigns become hard to do if you care about maintaining any kind of continuity with the extant FR.

2) Campaigns where anything genuinely important happens become hard-to-credit UNLESS the Unecessarily Overpowered NPCs (UONPCs) are "accounted for", and stuff like "oh lol shez runnign a university" isn't a good accounting or reason to not be involved, or are involved (in some ways this is the less painful option, if you use them indirectly).

3) The players are the heroes of the setting - this again can become "hard to credit" - you can repeat endlessly that you "don't see why" players want to be the heroes - that doesn't stop the vast majority of players wanting this, especially in the long-term.

Taking out the stats for "good" NPCs helps a great deal. I strongly suggest that whether the setting jumps 10 years or 100, that they DO NOT stat up good-aligned NPCs beyond "class/race/level", and if they can, avoid even that. No-one needs a freakin' stat-block for each of the Seven Psycho Sisters.

It's better to leave that to individual DMs to handle themselves. This way players are never going to feel directly overshadowed (because who knows what level this person is, eh?), the DM is less concerned with "NPC interference", because their power levels become vague and malleable without outright breaking with the setting, and a lot of time and space are saved in sourcebooks which otherwise had to be filled with stat blocks, spell lists, and details of extensive Kewl Powerz. It's only positive, and I'd really like to know if you oppose such a thing, and why?

As for "Elminster isn't a pet", those reasons sound almost as flaky as Elminster himself, to me. Just because someone consistently denies something that would reflect on them negatively, doesn't mean it ain't so. Similarly, just because he created Elminster when he was eight, doesn't mean it's a good idea for the character to stay in the setting. He's clearly been refined many times. In 1E/early 2E he WAS Gandalf only more interfering and arbitary. Later he's turned into this sort of "super-fit sexy older man" wanna-be Sean Connery creep, I see, which is even worse. His evolution needs to end, with any/all of de-statting, crippling, killing, or apotheosis.

It's not just the "big names" that are a problem though - I think you'll acknowledge that the FR has had a consistent problem in that the rulers of any given area, even on a small scale, tend to have an AWFUL lot of class levels, and should really be fighting a lot of threats directly. Settings like Eberron have leaders with 5-7 class levels, which makes a hell of a lot more sense.

This PERVASIVE use of "many PC-class levels for every npc!" (instead of making them Experts or the like) is more the reason that the setting needs to be advanced a handful of magic bastards I admit. Getting rid of the magic bastards would be a bonus, though.

PS - Before anyone attempts any lectures of how to remove the FR UONPCs from the setting - I know all this, and I've already spent time going through a lot of the books doing precisely that, but it's a tiresome chore, and unsuitable in a setting that's meant for general consumption.

_BadMojo_ - I completely agree that the "Good" FR NPCs tend to be tempremental and flaky. In fact, they're _so_ tempremental and flaky, that labelling a lot of them as good, as WotC, like TSR before them, insists on doing, is very very very very questionable.

The fact that they're in the setting, and that the setting consistently portrays them as "good people" who players should "respect" produces immensive amounts of cognitive dissonance for me. It's downright mindbending. I mean, they tell me just exactly how giant a "crazy bitch" one of the Seven Sisters is (based on her murderous actions), then mark her NG and talk about how she's a wonderful person - most NG characters in the FR seem very NON-_self_-sacrificing, too, though perhaps Elminister is going to finally change that a bit.

As a RPG DM and player, too, it's sick, because I know that it's "pet-ism" that causes them to be labelled as "good people". If this was a typical setting, the same NPC would be CN or the like, and there would be nothing about how wonderful they were, we would be left to judge on their own merit (indeed, they'd be detailed far more briefly per se). However, they're pets, because they're all either writer's pets (like Elminster - he's just not a pure Mary Sue - that doesn't make him a partial Mary Sue, or a pet), or worse, ex-PCs, as I am given to understand the Knights of Myth Drannor and possibly the Seven Sisters are. There's nothing more irksome than someone else's PCs slap-bang in the middle of a setting.


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## Uzzy (Sep 12, 2007)

> No, there aren't. At least not in any of the FR books I've seen. Most of the "villainous" NPCs are far from superpowered, and most of them are severely inactive or "spiders in their web"-types.




Manshoon, Fzoul, Szass Tam, Aznar Thrul, Druxus Rhym, Lallara, Lauzoril, Mythrellaa, Nevron, Yaphyll (The other seven Zulkir's.). The 12 Princes of Shade. Telamont. The Faceless. Sammaster. Halaster Blackcloak. Arklem Gleem of the Arcane Brotherhood. Countess Sarya Dlardrageth. Tordynnar Rhaevaren of the Eldreth Veluuthra. Slarkrethel of the Kraken Society. The Five Malalugryms, Arathluth, Luthbyr, Luthvaerynn, Taltuth and Zarasluth. Jymahna of the Twisted Rune. And, of course, Larloch. All high level and very powerful arcanists, all mentioned in Lords of Darkness. 



> I think your "Elminster should be level 35 if the PCs can reach 30!" idea shows that you don't, and are perhaps incapable of, understanding why a stat'd NPC is always worse than one without stats, if he's genuinely intended to be used for "flavour". I'll try though - if you take the stats out, the game only improves. That's all that happens. It gets better. You don't need those stats for anything.




I never said that. I said that Elminster being level 35 would be a problem IF the PC's could easily reach an equivalent level. If you read my post, you would have seen me agreeing that Elminster doesn't need stats. A 'Wizard 35, CG Human, Chosen of Mystra' statblock would do me fine. 

Now then, there is nothing more I can add to Paul S Kemp's post about the 'Concerns of the Mighty'. He summed it up perfectly. If you continue to stubbornly deny those truths due to your utter lack of knowledge about the Realms, then there's nothing I can do. I've tried explaining it, with sources, yet you continue to repost the same nonsense as before. As such, I'll leave this thread.


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## AdmundfortGeographer (Sep 12, 2007)

Uzzy said:
			
		

> If you continue to stubbornly deny those truths due to your utter lack of knowledge about the Realms, then there's nothing I can do.



"Truths" . . . huh.

The "truths" in that sidebar do not cover _every_ problem DMs have with having high level NPCs all over the Realms. Declaring that the sidebar is revealed "truth" does not change that many folks are unconvinced by it.

But to bring it back on track with the thread, I am one of those who has been bothered by the accumulated number of high level good guys *and* bad guys. But that is something I'm fully aware came about from decades of high output in adventures, accessories, and novels. And it is the setting "reset" (or whatever it is that happens with the spellplague and timeline advance) that appeals to me because it sounds like like the vast amount of accreted cumbersome weight is being shed. It *sounds* like a _nearly_ clean slate for newcomer DMs to make something of their own with like when the gray boxed set first appeared, points of light-like

Now, I also understand that this could go badly. TSR did a *similar* thing with the Mystara setting trying to bring the Rules Compendium version of the setting forward into the AD&D 2nd ed system. It's not a perfect analogy between Mystara's failed "update" to AD&D and FR's update to 4e. But I think the Known World/Mystara update to AD&D is a better analog that any other setting revision for many reasons.  The differences between Mystara-to-AD&D and FR-to-4e are great enough that I think FR-to-4e will prove successful enough that sales numbers won't suffer as Mystara's AD&D line did.


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## iwatt (Sep 13, 2007)

Uzzy said:
			
		

> And, of course, Larloch.





Larloch. If somebody is going to survive the Spellplague intact, it's him.


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## Mkhaiwati (Sep 13, 2007)

> No-one needs Elminster's stats. Seriously. You don't. If you're personally putting him an adventure in a position where he'll need stats beyond GM fiat, you and about three others have already told us that you're a "bad GM" for doing so, so clearly that's not a reason, and what, you can't MAKE UP the stats now?




I agree with the stats thingy. However, it seems that that somewhere, some group of people are always begging for stats for some NPC or whatnot, such as Drizzt. This began in 1e with TSR statting up the gods, then you people claiming to armwrestle Thor and gain his hammer. I agree, that with those designed as "flavourtext" or deities, there should be no stats. If a campaign gets up in power and those pcs want to take on gods, then let the GM think up his or her own plan!


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## Baby Samurai (Sep 13, 2007)

PaulKemp said:
			
		

> "I don't want to adventure in the Young Kingdoms because Elric can kick my ass,"




Only with _Stormbringer _ or his potions and drugs, otherwise I could head in the sink his ass, prison style.


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## Ruin Explorer (Sep 13, 2007)

Uzzy said:
			
		

> Now then, there is nothing more I can add to Paul S Kemp's post about the 'Concerns of the Mighty'. He summed it up perfectly. If you continue to stubbornly deny those truths due to your utter lack of knowledge about the Realms, then there's nothing I can do. I've tried explaining it, with sources, yet you continue to repost the same nonsense as before. As such, I'll leave this thread.




I have to confess, I didn't realize the FR had a direct equivalent of "religious zealots" irl, but The More You Know, eh? "Truths" - The only "truth" in this thread is that you believe with absolute blinding clarity that one short sidebar fixes a multitude of deep-rooted problems. By the way, you said there was a 10:1 UONPC bad guy: good guy ratio. Looks more like 1:1 or 2:1 at best, from the villains you've posted there, assuming they're Unecessarily Overpowered, and I bet not all of them are. Furthermore, the vast majority of them are as much, or more "locked in place" or "busy" than the "good" UONPCs.

In the end, the very fact that WotC are doing an FR reboot _at all _ speaks volumes. If they didn't think there was a problem, they wouldn't be risking the future profitability of an entire line. They're not stupid. They're business-people. If things are going swimmingly, and likely to continue to do so, then nothing needs to be changed, just gradual refinements applied, indeed, change of this magnitude would be bad in such a situation.

However, we must infer from the fact (which is technically an assumption based on a chapter from a novel, but one you seem to regard as true also) that WotC are "rebooting" the Realms, that sales of FR products were not, in fact, all they could be.

I would think this is true. Everyone I know who used to run the FR gave up in the last 9 to 3 years (and that's about six DMs), most of them are now either running other RPGs, or Eberron (interesting, that). I know they're far from alone. WotC knows that in our hearts, even us "Realms-quitters" still kinda love the FR, we love the layer on layer of ruins, the multitude of gods (some of whom are quite unique by fantasy standards, yet believable, like Illmater), we love a lot of the locations (even changed), and so on. We just don't like the metaplot or the oversufficiency of high-level NPCs (not just UONPCs - this is an issue I've mentioned a couple of times, but you've ignored), large, complex extremely-detailed organisations, and so on.

Hell, even re-stat'ing the current FR for 4E would be an absolutely monumental task, and when you're having to do that due to vast and sweeping class and game design changes, so it seems only logical to take it as an opportunity to try and get back some of the "lost" FR players, as well as people who previously laughed at or rejected the Realms outright (often citing the NPCs/metaplot).

As I've said though, the main thing is that WotC do not take stupid risks. You seem certain that the new FR will be horrible failure - whilst there's always a chance of that, I don't see it as particularly likely.


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## Athenon (Sep 13, 2007)

It kinda irks me that the two sides of this back and forth are either 1) "The Realms is BAD because of Elminster and every other NPC I can think of" and apparently should be like Eberron or 2) "The Realms is great and not a thing can be changed -- or else!"

I think I represent the majority of thought which goes like this: I love the Realms and I've spent the majority of my DMing and playing there.  I intend to continue this because, even though there are parts which can be tiresome, it's still the best campaign setting that's ever been published.  

Further, I'm *not* afraid of proposed changes to the setting.  Anything that might update the setting and make it more fresh could be great.  A new FRCS sure beats substandard products like Champions of Ruin/Valor or Mysteries of the Moonsea.  Bring on the Realms 4E!  Rich Baker and company are doing great work and desrve to be congratulated.  

Will
PS: The Shadowdale adventure is fantastic!


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## an_idol_mind (Sep 13, 2007)

Athenon said:
			
		

> It kinda irks me that the two sides of this back and forth are either 1) "The Realms is BAD because of Elminster and every other NPC I can think of" and apparently should be like Eberron or 2) "The Realms is great and not a thing can be changed -- or else!"




That's pretty reductive of both sides. Side 1 is not saying the Realms necessarily suck, but that they would be more interested if the high-level NPCs and a few other things got changed. Side 2 is not advocating no change at all, but is instead arguing that killing off almost all major characters, wrecking the civilizations, and jumping the timeline forward 100 years is overkill when it comes to changing the setting. That's a far cry from the two arguments you posted.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Sep 13, 2007)

an_idol_mind said:
			
		

> That's pretty reductive of both sides. Side 1 is not saying the Realms necessarily suck, but that they would be more interested if the high-level NPCs and a few other things got changed. Side 2 is not advocating no change at all, but is instead arguing that killing off almost all major characters, wrecking the civilizations, and jumping the timeline forward 100 years is overkill when it comes to changing the setting. That's a far cry from the two arguments you posted.



I concur. The two sides aren't nearly that far apart.

Most (but not all) fans think that there are some changes that should be made to the setting and most (but not all) fans think that advancing the storyline forward somewhat (and thus shaking things up some) is a good thing. Really, it's a disagreement over degree, more than anything else.


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## iwatt (Sep 13, 2007)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> I concur. The two sides aren't nearly that far apart.




But this is the internet, home of sweeping generalizations.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Sep 13, 2007)

iwatt said:
			
		

> But this is the internet, home of sweeping generalizations.



I ABSOLUTELY DISAGREE! How can you possibly believe that?


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## Ruin Explorer (Sep 13, 2007)

Athenon said:
			
		

> It kinda irks me that the two sides of this back and forth are either 1) "The Realms is BAD because of Elminster and every other NPC I can think of" and apparently should be like Eberron or 2) "The Realms is great and not a thing can be changed -- or else!"
> 
> I think I represent the majority of thought which goes like this: I love the Realms and I've spent the majority of my DMing and playing there.  I intend to continue this because, even though there are parts which can be tiresome, it's still the best campaign setting that's ever been published.




If you mean me as 1), that's a complete mischaracterization. I like the Realms as a setting a great deal. I don't think the 3E work has been stellar, to be honest, and I could really stand to see a lot of NPC vaporization (some of which seems to be under way!), but I would never say the Realms overall is "BAD", just that it contains a couple of horrible elements, which you can play _around_, but which should be removed when possible. I mean, if I didn't basically _like_ the place, I would have dumped it long ago.

That's actually my main concern about 4E. I like Sembia, I like the North, I like all sorts of little wierd places in the Realms, and if they're all "Conquered by monsters, culture destroyed", as the damned dwarf seems to imply in the sample chapter of that book, I'll be sad. I tend to think overall, though, 4E changes have got to be a win, just for simpliying the setting and making it easier to get back to one's roots (and very far away from Champions of Valor-type trash).

So actually I don't think my viewpoint is dissimilar to yours. I just really really hate some of the NPCs and enjoy expressing it


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## Lonely Tylenol (Sep 16, 2007)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> Hmm...
> 
> You know, speaking _for myself only_... This might be what it takes to get me _into_ FR. I'm familiar with the _basics_ of the setting, but not many of the details. And I've never written for it because, among other things, the notion of trying to catch up on all this history is daunting, to say the least.
> 
> ...



Me too.  The main reason I don't run games in the FR, despite many of my players being fans, is that I don't want to have to read every FR supplement to make sure I'm not contradicting some important fact of life in the Realms every time I create a plot device.  Before anyone jumps on me about it, I know I'm the DM and I have control over the way the world works, but if I say Bob the Expert is king of Shadowdale or something, it's just going to come across as weird to people who know the setting, even if they play along with it.  I'd rather play in a less defined setting like Greyhawk or Eberron, where you can just throw entire regions in without disturbing the map or the continuity.  Not that I run Eberron, either.


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## Lonely Tylenol (Sep 16, 2007)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> I concur. The two sides aren't nearly that far apart.
> 
> Most (but not all) fans think that there are some changes that should be made to the setting and most (but not all) fans think that advancing the storyline forward somewhat (and thus shaking things up some) is a good thing. Really, it's a disagreement over degree, more than anything else.



I, for example, like the Realms, and would like to see the following changes made:

1. Kill off all characters over 20th level.
2. Shake up the political situation to the point that a DM can say "okay, this part of Daggerdale has been turned into a new duchy under Duke Steve," and not fear contradiction or even doubt from his FR-fan players.
3. Make it easier to import new material, like Tome of Magic classes or Psionics.  The proposed changes to the Weave might just accomplish that neatly.  They seem to be designed to accommodate the 4E changes to spellcasting.
4. Less Drow.  I'm so sick of them, and they're so everywhere in the Realms.  Drow, half-drow, reformed Drow...too many Drow.
5. Cover a single region in detail in the FRCS, rather than trying to list every place on the continent in a passing manner.  Save the other regions for later supplements.  Give me a place to base a campaign, and some tools to do it with.


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## AdmundfortGeographer (Sep 16, 2007)

Dr. Awkward said:
			
		

> 5. Cover a single region in detail in the FRCS, rather than trying to list every place on the continent in a passing manner.  Save the other regions for later supplements.



This inevitably leads back to the current situation with FR. So many sourcebooks covering everything in detail that makes running campaigns there overwhelming to many prospective DMs. I'd much rather have a single sourcebook that covers everything in broad strokes. Plus, one or two regions covered in detail. Then everywhere else receives coverage in adventures, which could give greater detail to regions or leave them generalized.


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## Lonely Tylenol (Sep 16, 2007)

Eric Anondson said:
			
		

> This inevitably leads back to the current situation with FR. So many sourcebooks covering everything in detail that makes running campaigns there overwhelming to many prospective DMs. I'd much rather have a single sourcebook that covers everything in broad strokes. Plus, one or two regions covered in detail. Then everywhere else receives coverage in adventures, which could give greater detail to regions or leave them generalized.



Well, all I really want is a write-up of the important locations on either the Sword Coast or the Dalelands.  Preferably without too many NPCs.  It just seems to me that those are the most popular regions, and everything else is optional, so could be plugged in later.  I'm not saying that future supplements should be 96 page single-region books either.  If you want to cover everything east of the Silver Marches in one book, that might be preferable.  Of course, sourcebook design will probably change a lot if feats and prestige classes and the like are changed radically.  Which means we might see more region in the region books and less crunch.


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## AdmundfortGeographer (Sep 17, 2007)

Well, I'm thinking a 100 year timeline leap makes a bit more sense now reading the new Design Article on wizards.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20070917a

Wizards are getting pretty much an Extreme Makeover: Arcane Edition. I can see why having every arcane spellcaster go insane fits the description of the spellplague.


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## grimslade (Sep 17, 2007)

It sounds to me like wizards foci replace the Weave. Raw magic is too powerful for a wizard to control but the foci enables the wizard to control it. It is a big campaign affecting change, in addition to the Realms specific changes. I like it, but it makes more of a different Realms than the spoilers in the Orc King and GHotC.


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## Ruin Explorer (Sep 17, 2007)

Dr. Awkward said:
			
		

> Which means we might see more region in the region books and less crunch.




God I hope so. The current FR books all seem to be so crunch heavy as to suffocate pretty much everything else. More setting, less crunch, in 4E, please. We can work out how to differentiate people from different places without a million feats, packages, and so on, thanks.


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## Athenon (Sep 17, 2007)

Dr. Awkward said:

I, for example, like the Realms, and would like to see the following changes made:

1. Kill off all characters over 20th level.
2. Shake up the political situation to the point that a DM can say "okay, this part of Daggerdale has been turned into a new duchy under Duke Steve," and not fear contradiction or even doubt from his FR-fan players.
3. Make it easier to import new material, like Tome of Magic classes or Psionics. The proposed changes to the Weave might just accomplish that neatly. They seem to be designed to accommodate the 4E changes to spellcasting.
4. Less Drow. I'm so sick of them, and they're so everywhere in the Realms. Drow, half-drow, reformed Drow...too many Drow.
5. Cover a single region in detail in the FRCS, rather than trying to list every place on the continent in a passing manner. Save the other regions for later supplements. Give me a place to base a campaign, and some tools to do it with.

I say to Dr. Awkward:  VERY well said, sir!


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## Gwathlas (Sep 23, 2007)

KnightErrantJR said:
			
		

> I understand that the point of any business venture is to make money, and that even the people that I hang out with online and off aren't indicative of either D&D fans or FR fans as a whole, but it does bum me out and pretty much kills the setting for me.  I'm not saying that they are evil or horrible for doing it, but it does seem a bit like gambling on a greater influx of new people while accounting for fewer leaving the setting, and I'm not sure that betting on getting people into the setting that never liked it is the best way to go, but it may work.
> 
> It also seems like the assurances that "Drizzt and Elminster are still there" are the concessions to trying to keep older fans, but to be honest, I'm less worried about those two than I am having Cormyr, Waterdeep, the Dalelands, and the like with their "feel" intact.  That goes way beyond NPCs that very few people in my campaigns over the last 20 years have run into.




I'm in total agreenment and having most of the supplements I'd be greatly irked if the Lost Empires no longer fit in.  One can also ask what becomes of all the elven races?


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## MisterWhodat (Sep 26, 2007)

Athenon said:
			
		

> I think I represent the majority of thought which goes like this: I love the Realms and I've spent the majority of my DMing and playing there.  I intend to continue this because, even though there are parts which can be tiresome, it's still the best campaign setting that's ever been published.
> 
> Further, I'm *not* afraid of proposed changes to the setting.  Anything that might update the setting and make it more fresh could be great.  A new FRCS sure beats substandard products like Champions of Ruin/Valor or Mysteries of the Moonsea.  Bring on the Realms 4E!  Rich Baker and company are doing great work and desrve to be congratulated.





Cmon, you didn't like Champions of Valor?  or Mysteries of the Moonsea?  Well all I can say is you just didn't know where to look to get the most out of them.  So of course your not afraid of the proposed changes, you are cattle that follows whatever hay WoTC throws out for you.  Be a man and stick with 3.5.  

And for the record the best campaign setting thats ever been published was Dark Sun, so get your facts straight.


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## Athenon (Sep 26, 2007)

*WhoDat's Bunk-Ass Campaign*

Well,

I did NOT like Champions of Ruin.  How does that make me "cattle?"  I don't know.  What I do know is the following (having played in Who Dat's regular Friday night game in Cow Island, LA):


While I don't pretend to be able to compete with you on Realms trivia, I do feel I know a good bit about the setting.  I still contend that Greyhawk is NOT on the far side of Toril, no matter how much you protest.


I always thought your modifications of Dark Sun were strange.  I mean, most of the time I don't envision Athas featuring Kender running around on mechano-stilts and all worshipping Thor.


I think 3.5 modifications like the one you made to Waterdeep is really problematic.  It doesn't work well in the middle of the desert!  That always seemed kinda clownshoes to me.


I guess most distrurbing to me on this whole thing was how every character you played ended up marrying a Chosen of Mystra - I mean seriously.  What's that about?


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## Rel (Sep 26, 2007)

MisterWhodat said:
			
		

> Cmon, you didn't like Champions of Valor?  or Mysteries of the Moonsea?  Well all I can say is you just didn't know where to look to get the most out of them.  So of course your not afraid of the proposed changes, you are cattle that follows whatever hay WoTC throws out for you.  Be a man and stick with 3.5.
> 
> And for the record the best campaign setting thats ever been published was Dark Sun, so get your facts straight.




Hello, MisterWhodat.  Welcome to ENWorld.  At ENWorld, we pride ourselves on NOT calling our fellow posters "cattle" for looking forward to WotC products or considering them to be lesser men for not sticking with 3.5.  We also don't tell them to "get their facts straight" for expressing an opinion.  So, ya know, don't do that stuff anymore.


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## 3catcircus (Sep 27, 2007)

Dr. Awkward said:
			
		

> I, for example, like the Realms, and would like to see the following changes made:
> 
> 1. Kill off all characters over 20th level.




And what will this accomplish?  Now, the Elminsters are 19th level.  Seriously - if you, as a DM, can't control your NPCs, than this isn't gonna help you.



> 2. Shake up the political situation to the point that a DM can say "okay, this part of Daggerdale has been turned into a new duchy under Duke Steve," and not fear contradiction or even doubt from his FR-fan players.




So - you want to introduce a political RSE vice a religious RSE as was done in the ToT...  Any change to the geopolitical structure of the campaign world that *isn't* done by the DM is a bad idea.  Greyhawk had the same problem when they had the Greyhawk Wars and suddenly you had to keep track of all of these kingdoms that were added/deleted/changed.



> 3. Make it easier to import new material, like Tome of Magic classes or Psionics.  The proposed changes to the Weave might just accomplish that neatly.  They seem to be designed to accommodate the 4E changes to spellcasting.




Hmm - I've never seen the Weave being a hindrance to introducing new material.  Frankly, in my campaign, the PCs don't know that the Weave exists. Magic just "is."



> 4. Less Drow.  I'm so sick of them, and they're so everywhere in the Realms.  Drow, half-drow, reformed Drow...too many Drow.




Where? They are only where the DM chooses to place them.  Don't want to have a lot of Drow?  Don't use them.  Make the major non-human bad guys hobgoblins or something.



> 5. Cover a single region in detail in the FRCS, rather than trying to list every place on the continent in a passing manner.  Save the other regions for later supplements.  Give me a place to base a campaign, and some tools to do it with.




Bad idea.  This limits a DM (especially a DM new to the realms) to only one region.  Which region would you detail? The Dalelands? Cormyr? Silver Marches? What about someone who grew up playing Baldur's Gate II and wants to adventure in Amn?  Should they have to wait a few months or years for the region book detailing Amn to be released?  That is not gonna attract players to the campaign setting.  DMs need a minimum level of detail about the entire campaign world to start a game.  Those who *want* more detail will buy supplements.  Thos e who want to detail things themselves have a base to go upon.


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## Majoru Oakheart (Sep 27, 2007)

3catcircus said:
			
		

> Bad idea.  This limits a DM (especially a DM new to the realms) to only one region.  Which region would you detail? The Dalelands? Cormyr? Silver Marches? What about someone who grew up playing Baldur's Gate II and wants to adventure in Amn?  Should they have to wait a few months or years for the region book detailing Amn to be released?  That is not gonna attract players to the campaign setting.  DMs need a minimum level of detail about the entire campaign world to start a game.  Those who *want* more detail will buy supplements.  Thos e who want to detail things themselves have a base to go upon.



I actually think it does the reverse.  It empowers the DMs to use the areas that aren't mentioned without stepping on canon.

What do the Dalelands look like 100 years in the future?  We don't know.  Maybe there is a small village called "Samville" in the northern area where goblins live and a beholder is in charge.  That's what's cool about it, *I* get to decide.

If they tell me the top 100 NPCs in the region with motivations and titles, give me a detailed map of all the roads and the landmarks, and give me a list of the laws and customs....well, there's no room for MY ideas in the equation.

There needs to be a minimum amount of information, I admit.  However, minimum can be pretty low.  For instance, the country of Ket in Greyhawk hasn't EVER had more than 3 pages of information written about it, officially.  That's what makes it fun to take the information that has been given and figure out the details.

I'd be perfectly fine with the minimum being something like: "Since the Spellplague, Neverwinter has fallen on hard times, the population has decreased dramatically.  It is very much a city in ruin.  However, the current leader, John Smith a paladin of some renown has been trying to pick up the pieces and has organized the population as best as he could.  The city has been attacked by monsters for a couple of decades now, but they continue to survive, if just barely."

That gives me a good basis for running a campaign there with a starting point.  It tells me the THEME of a place and lets me come up with the details myself.


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## MisterWhodat (Sep 27, 2007)

Great post Oakheart.


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