# Player's Handbook 2: I haz it



## davethegame

Myself, along with a number of other excellent bloggers, have received preview copies of PHB2. We are all working together to put together a pretty big event around it starting March 13th, and hopefully a series of other supplementary articles about the release.

In the meantime, however, I am allowed to answer questions (both here and  on my site. The ground rules are that I won't post any actual excerpts or solid game content, and I reserve the right to not answer any questions that I don't think are right to answer (or my answer might be: buy the book!) I'm sure everybody understands that it's a pretty big deal that I've gotten a copy, and so I'm doing my best to repay that favor... and I really do want everybody to go out and buy it. 

So, with that all said, fire away...


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## LightPhoenix

Can you give a brief overview of what's in the book?


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## Drakhar

Barb AC issue fixed?


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## Nymrohd

How are shifters handled? Multiple options like the genasi? How many?
Is weapon expertise still around? Implement expertise?
Are the decent feat options for builds that use implement powers? PHB focused on martial and had far better feats for weapons and melee . . .
How does the Valor Bard build look? Are the powers all weapon based?

Thanks in advance!


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## Twiggly the Gnome

Could you give the names of the Gnome racial feats, and a general idea of what they do?

Thanks.


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## Scribble

What's the deal with the Bard rituals? Are they realy just rituals that only bards can use? Or is there something else to that?


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## Siberys

Nymrohd said:


> How are shifters handled? Multiple options like the genasi? How many?
> Is weapon expertise still around? Implement expertise?




These x2.


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## weem

I was curious about the Stealth updates (on DDI they show it in the table of contents preview at the end of the book)... are these major changes to how stealth works, or just some minor updates, etc

Thanks in advance!


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## Plane Sailing

Do they have any better feats for existing arcane casters (who were pretty poorly done by in PHB1 and haven't had their own splatbook like martial heroes with extra stuff yet)?

Cheers


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## underthumb

> I’m sure everybody understands that it’s a pretty big deal that I’ve gotten a copy, and so I’m doing my best to repay that favor…and I really do want everybody to go out and buy it.




I don't want this to sound mean, but don't you think that the above sentence is a little problematic? You want us to buy it, and you feel strongly obliged to the company that gave you a pre-release version of it. This can clearly color your own judgements.

I suppose we could just ask you yes/no questions about what the book does and does not include, but I guess I'm not sure what your intent is.


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## davethegame

LightPhoenix said:


> Can you give a brief overview of what's in the book?




Classes, Races, Paragon Paths (for both Races & Classes), Epic Destinies, Backgrounds, Feats, Rituals, Magic Items (mainly to support the new classes), and some minor rules clarification stuff.



> Barb AC issue fixed?




I'm only vaguely aware of the issue, but I can tell you that they don't get their Con to AC as some have suggested, but they do get an AC bump. 



> How are shifters handled? Multiple options like the genasi? How many?




2 Shifters, the ones from the MM, but they get new stuff to play with. Their paragon path is especially vicious.



> Is weapon expertise still around? Implement expertise?




Yep.



> Are the decent feat options for builds that use implement powers? PHB focused on martial and had far better feats for weapons and melee . . .





> Do they have any better feats for existing arcane casters (who were pretty poorly done by in PHB1 and haven't had their own splatbook like martial heroes with extra stuff yet)?




I think these are similar questions. Yep, there are new feats for any arcane casters, similar to stuff like "Burning Blizzard" but with more flavor to the different damage types. Not a lot, though.



> What's the deal with the Bard rituals? Are they realy just rituals that only bards can use? Or is there something else to that?




They have "Prerequisite: Bard", and I don't see any way around it, so yeah, Bard only.



> Could you give the names of the Gnome racial feats, and a general idea of what they do?




There are feats to increase their stealthy nature, and to give them more "magic trick" options.



> I was curious about the Stealth updates (on DDI they show it in the table of contents preview at the end of the book)... are these major changes to how stealth works, or just some minor updates, etc




I believe these are the same changes that were in the errata, but I'd have to pick through them to be sure. They look similar.

Be back in a bit to answer more.


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## Drakhar

Any new weapon types or is just new magic weapons?


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## Irda Ranger

Did anything make you spit Diet Coke or clench your fist and shout "_You incompetent fools!! What were you thinking!?!?_"


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## davethegame

underthumb said:


> I don't want this to sound mean, but don't you think that the above sentence is a little problematic? You want us to buy it, and you feel strongly obliged to the company that gave you a pre-release version of it. This can clearly color your own judgements.
> 
> I suppose we could just ask you yes/no questions about what the book does and does not include, but I guess I'm not sure what your intent is.




I assume most of them will be fairly objective questions and answers (like the ones above) and I take my journalistic ethics very seriously, and always have on Critical Hits.


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## davethegame

Drakhar said:


> Any new weapon types or is just new magic weapons?




No new weapon types. I was hoping for the El Gabong Guitar of Smashing or the Combat Drums of Smiting, but no such luck.



Irda Ranger said:


> Did anything make you spit Diet Coke or clench your fist and shout "_You incompetent fools!! What were you thinking!?!?_"




I must be doing it wrong, I rarely have that reaction to any game book anymore. Since it's mostly rules there's not much to react against, but if I had to pick something, I was a bit disappointed at the lack of pudgy/hardy gnomes or anything to go with them.


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## Kez Darksun

How do the Avenger's and the Sorcerer's damage dealing capabilities seem to stack up compared to the other strikers?  Also, you mentioned on your site an Avenger power in the Epic tier that wowed you.  Were there any similar Avenger powers that stood out for you in the Heroic & Paragon tiers? (General descriptions of the powers & not crunch, of course...)


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## Zsig

Since noone asked:

What's the general feeling you got from flipping through the book?

The art? Is it good/bad? Comparable to? Are there any recycled art in the book?

What can you tell us about the concept of the races and classes presented in the book? I mean, by now we all know for sure what they are and such, but how do they look like, the fluff and etc?

What's your personal opinion regarding the book overall? Is it up to expectations? Better? Worse?

Any particular noticeable flaw/typo/inconsistence/whatever you noticed already?

Thanks for taking the time and doing this Dave!


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## Tuft

Roughly what kind of things does the Bard-specific rituals do? Are they party-buffers, or problem-solvers?


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## Zsig

Sorry for the double post, but I imagine this will go fast, and it won't happen again.

Some less generic questions:

-Are there any material in there to support other classes and races from previews books such as feats (besides Versatile Master half-elves, of course), and paragon paths (besides the racial paragon paths)?

-How awesome are the Deva?

-Tell us about the rules updates.


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## Wimwick

Do you notice any sort of power creep between the PHB2 classes and what's available in the Core PHB?


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## davethegame

Kez Darksun said:


> How do the Avenger's and the Sorcerer's damage dealing capabilities seem to stack up compared to the other strikers?  Also, you mentioned on your site an Avenger power in the Epic tier that wowed you.  Were there any similar Avenger powers that stood out for you in the Heroic & Paragon tiers? (General descriptions of the powers & not crunch, of course...)




It still seems like the Avenger's shtick is to hit more often but not do as much damage as other strikers. They have more ranged powers than I was expecting, so that could be a pretty interesting concept to focus on that. They have a strong "pursuit" vibe to many of the powers too.

Sorcerers get striker damage through a class feature, just not a variable one.


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## Vendark

Could you give a brief description of the new epic destinies?


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## davethegame

Zsig said:


> What's the general feeling you got from flipping through the book?




As someone who has followed all the previews to cover them for my site, not a whole lot jumped out at me as surprising, but it did make me want to roll up some new characters and try a lot of these things out.



> The art? Is it good/bad? Comparable to? Are there any recycled art in the book?




Good. More consistent in style than PHB1 for sure, and it leaves out some of the artists who have appeared in other 4e books that I strongly dislike. I didn't spot any recycled art, which is excellent.



> What can you tell us about the concept of the races and classes presented in the book? I mean, by now we all know for sure what they are and such, but how do they look like, the fluff and etc?




Devas are an excellent concept that carries through whenever they show up. Gnomes, Half-Orcs, and Shifters all occupy unique niches for the game. Goliaths... enh. They didn't excite me in 3e and they're pretty similar now.



> What's your personal opinion regarding the book overall? Is it up to expectations? Better? Worse?




Up to my expectations, as noted earlier, the previews (and my trip to New York Comic Con) took a lot of the mystery out of what was going to be in it. The sacrifices I make 



> Any particular noticeable flaw/typo/inconsistence/whatever you noticed already?




Not that has jumped out at me, but after doing a full day editing at work, I don't always turn that part of the brain back on.



> Thanks for taking the time and doing this Dave!




Sure!



Tuft said:


> Roughly what kind of things does the Bard-specific rituals do? Are they party-buffers, or problem-solvers?




Mainly utility/problem-solvers, with some skill-buffing to boot.



Zsig said:


> -Are there any material in there to support other classes and races from previews books such as feats (besides Versatile Master half-elves, of course), and paragon paths (besides the racial paragon paths)?




Besides the things you mention, it either works for something from PHB2 OR it's something anyone can take.



> -How awesome are the Deva?




I dig them a lot, and I think it's one of the stronger concepts behind the various races. (I also have a fondness for Warforged in that regard). It reminds me both of that quasi-Monk skill using class from Arcana Unearthed and the Trill from Star Trek, to muddy up my nerdom there.



> -Tell us about the rules updates.




Largely an explanation of the keywords they've set in other books- Conjuration, Summoning, even stuff like Rattling from Martial Power. Stealth is the biggest errata there.



Wimwick said:


> Do you notice any sort of power creep between the PHB2 classes and what's available in the Core PHB?




It's hard to say since the PHB contains a wide variety of things on the power scale. Nothing has jumped out at me as being strictly power creep, but I'd have to look closer.


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## Mr.Black

1. What are the half-orc racial modifiers?  (+2 str, +2 ???)

2. Are there any paragon paths that add ability score modifiers to damage?  (Such as Pit fighter and wisdom)

Thanks.


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## davethegame

Vendark said:


> Could you give a brief description of the new epic destinies?




The two that stood out are Harbringer of Doom (you're the messenger for some kind of apocalypse) and Revered One (sort of like the Contemplative prestige class, a seeker of ultimate truth).


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## Kzach

Are there songblades for bards or any rules around such a concept?

What's the Con-bard (Charisma main, Con secondary) like? Is it a melee leader-type like I'm expecting?

Who's your daddy?


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## Atlatl Jones

Can you describe the Avenger's at-will powers?  It's the only class for which we don't have all the at-wills.

Are there any feats that improve a druid's wild shape, or improve the Shaman's spirit?  (And please don't just say "yes"  )

You mentioned on your site that there's something that improves paragon multiclassing.  Can you tell us what it is, and how it improves multiclassing?


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## davethegame

Kzach said:


> Are there songblades for bards or any rules around such a concept?




Yep! They're in the magic items.



> What's the Con-bard (Charisma main, Con secondary) like? Is it a melee leader-type like I'm expecting?




It seems more Leadery to me, a lot more shouting. It does look a little like the Warlord. Int bard seems more controllery (tricking your enemies). 



> Who's your daddy?




That one I will choose to ignore.


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## GMforPowergamers

please tell us if Implment/Weapon Expertise is as bad as we have heard.

    is it really +1 att, and are there pre reqs to it....we had such a fight on the wizard boards about it, I just have to know...


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## Whizbang Dustyboots

davethegame said:


> i must be doing it wrong, i rarely have that reaction to any game book anymore. Since it's mostly rules there's not much to react against, but if i had to pick something, i was a bit disappointed at the lack of pudgy/hardy gnomes or anything to go with them.



I REFUSE TO GO ON A DIET, WOTC! Gimme mah Krispy Kremes!


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## Atlatl Jones

Aside from the songblade, are there any other magic weapons which can be used as implements?  Does the songblade have any powers or properties aside from being usable as a bard implement?


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## davethegame

Atlatl Jones said:


> Can you describe the Avenger's at-will powers?  It's the only class for which we don't have all the at-wills.




Three melee, one ranged. Actually, if you want most of the story, Wil Wheaton details them in the podcasts for his Avenger.



> Are there any feats that improve a druid's wild shape, or improve the Shaman's spirit?  (And please don't just say "yes"  )




Well, I can also say that the Druid's wild shape feats are mostly named after specific animals, and give a benefit in line with that animal. Shamans improve the existing aspect of their spirit.


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## Shroomy

FYI, Japanese posters over at RPG.net are reporting that they will be receiving the book today (well, tonight for us in the USA).

Want to touch my PHB 2? Arrives tomorrow! - RPGnet Forums


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## Remathilis

Tell me about the eight new multi-class feats (for the eight new classes). Names? Abilities?


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## Asmor

Is the barbarian changed significantly from the previews? I'm actually starting a new 10th level barbarian character on Friday, so that's kind of important for me to know... 

In particular, there was much gnashing of teeth over the barbarian's 'striker bonus damage' being rolled into the powers themselves. Is that still the case, or do they have their own version of sneak attack/curse/quarry?


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## davethegame

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> I REFUSE TO GO ON A DIET, WOTC! Gimme mah Krispy Kremes!




You tell 'em! There are some really badass looking pictures of gnomes in there, though... much better than the ones used for the racial writeup IMO.



Atlatl Jones said:


> Aside from the songblade, are there any other magic weapons which can be used as implements?  Does the songblade have any powers or properties aside from being usable as a bard implement?




Nope, Sorcerers have special daggers, but they don't count as implements. The Bards do get wondrous item instruments as implements too.

There are multiple kinds of songblades, and they all have a power.



Remathilis said:


> Tell me about the eight new multi-class feats (for the eight new classes). Names? Abilities?




Most of them just let you take one of the class's at-will powers and gain it as an encounter power. I predict Arcane Prodigy (Sorcerer) and Berserker's Fury to be very popular multiclasses, since they both give bonuses to damage. Initiate of the Old Faith (Druid) gives you wild shape and an encounter power to go with it. Spirit Talker (Shaman) gives you a spirit companion, and some powers to go with it.



Asmor said:


> Is the barbarian changed significantly from the previews? I'm actually starting a new 10th level barbarian character on Friday, so that's kind of important for me to know...
> 
> In particular, there was much gnashing of teeth over the barbarian's 'striker bonus damage' being rolled into the powers themselves. Is that still the case, or do they have their own version of sneak attack/curse/quarry?




The biggest difference I noticed that changed was Rage Strike so that it's clarified that it can't be used until 5th level (and also explains what it's used for in the class description). They don't have their own Striker bonus thingy, so it's all built-in still. Is this the return of Targ Bonechewer?


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## Rechan

What are the racial mechanics for the Shifters? How do they differ from the MM Shifters (has the powers changed any)?


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## davethegame

Rechan said:


> What are the racial mechanics for the Shifters? How do they differ from the MM Shifters (has the powers changed any)?




Copied from a similar question:
They’re essentially the same, which just a little tweak that makes it better. They also get racial feats and a paragon path (Moonstalker, and it’s pretty vicious!)


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## Rechan

davethegame said:


> Copied from a similar question:
> They’re essentially the same, which just a little tweak that makes it better. They also get racial feats and a paragon path (Moonstalker, and it’s pretty vicious!)




I saw that; I am looking for _more detail_. I.e. what is it they get besides the ability adjustment and the racial "Shift" power? The static bonuses (like bonus to skills) or other effects (Like the Dwarf's resistance to poison, etc).


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## davethegame

Rechan said:


> I saw that; I am looking for _more detail_. I.e. what is it they get besides the ability adjustment and the racial "Shift" power? The static bonuses (like bonus to skills) or other effects (Like the Dwarf's resistance to poison, etc).




That's it, nothing else beyond what is listed in the Monster Manual.... oh, they get a bonus language beyond Common, but that's the only other difference besides the power wording.


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## GMforPowergamers

GMforPowergamers said:


> please tell us if Implment/Weapon Expertise is as bad as we have heard.
> 
> is it really +1 att, and are there pre reqs to it....we had such a fight on the wizard boards about it, I just have to know...




RPGnet says:



> No pre req...adds to encounter and daily powers only
> 
> +1....upgrades to +2 at 15 and +3 at 25




something seams off...I think we still don't have the full picture...but that is what was said...


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## Asmor

davethegame said:


> Is this the return of Targ Bonechewer?




Nah, although it's probably a similar build modulo the extra 5 levels. This one's a kobold, and he's replacing a gnome. I can't stay away from the monster manual races, it seems.


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## Cadfan

GMforPowergamers said:


> something seams off...I think we still don't have the full picture...but that is what was said...



I agree.  That would suggest that its been changed, at the very least, since the original seemed to apply to everything.  And it seems odd to grant a +3 attack at higher levels, given the way that attack bonuses scale.  Unless this is an explicit effort for improving high level attack bonuses?


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## davethegame

GMforPowergamers said:


> RPGnet says:
> something seams off...I think we still don't have the full picture...but that is what was said...




In my non-Japanese copy, it applies to everything, but all the rest is correct.


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## Rechan

1) What do you think is going to shock/amaze people the most? What do we not see coming?

2) We've only seen 3 levels of the Invoker. It's hard to gauge how they really differ from wizards, and how they feel as a divine class. Can you give us a good idea of what their "schtick" is, as far as controllers go?

3) What feats are geared towards non-PHB2 classes/races? Any "universally useful" feats, like Improved Initiative? How about feats for PHB1 races/classes?


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## GMforPowergamers

davethegame said:


> In my non-Japanese copy, it applies to everything, but all the rest is correct.




ok two independent source confirm it...I was just hopeing for prereqs....guess I was wrong...it is power creep...


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## Anguirus

GMforPowergamers said:


> RPGnet says:
> 
> 
> 
> something seams off...I think we still don't have the full picture...but that is what was said...




You know...I really like that actually.  Everyone hates missing with encounters and dailies...it can ruin a whole session.  And while +1 to all those powers is a very strong feat, it's not a no-brainer because it isn't just a naked power-up to all attacks.  The huge DPR builds right now are usually based on a strong at-will like Twin/Dual Strike and they didn't need a big boost.

I'm sold.  Now rein in Rain of Blows and maybe..._maybe_ Marked Scourge, and I think I'll breathe easier about melee damage.  (Mind you, I don't mind melee characters doing a lot of damage...after all, monsters have a lot of hit points.  I'm more worried about keeping characters in the same ballpark for damage, i.e. one character in the party shouldn't be one-shotting solos while the rest are his cheering section.  Unless it's like four warlors and a ranger who have geared their whole concept towards that...ok, shutting up now.)


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## Anguirus

davethegame said:


> In my non-Japanese copy, it applies to everything, but all the rest is correct.




Goddamn it.  Ok, disregard everything I said above.

(So much for WotC pulling a genius move out of its hat, lol.  Guess they don't believe in tracking too many different to-hit numbers...or about the perception of power creep.)


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## Mostlyjoe

Just how many of these utility shapeshifts does the Druid have?

What is the craziest Warden, Avenger, Shaman power that stands out to you?

By Wild Magic...just what sort of wonkiness can we expect from a Wild Sorcerer?


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## Cadfan

The best I can guess is that they really do feel that attack bonuses don't scale fast enough to keep up with high level armor class.  That's the ONLY reason to make a feat that scales attack bonus by tier.  Attack bonus is always against a 20 point distribution so it doesn't normally need to scale unless you really do want it to get more powerful as you level up.


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## Nightson

Describe the single coolest power in the book.


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## AntlerDruid

1) Any new cleric feats?

2) What does Avenger multiclass feat give you?

3) What are some of the other Avenger feats?

4) Is Weapon Finesse in the book where it allows you to use DEX for Basic attacks or anything like it?

Thanks!


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## Atlatl Jones

davethegame said:


> Copied from a similar question:
> They’re essentially the same, which just a little tweak that makes it better. They also get racial feats and a paragon path (Moonstalker, and it’s pretty vicious!)



What's the tweak?  I'm playing one now, and I'm dying to know.  Also, can you describe what the shifter feats do?


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## GMforPowergamers

Dave one more quastion...and this one is only a minor spoiler...


Do Invoker's have a good number of summons, or did we see like most of that in the one power???


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## malraux

Is PHB2 a functional replacement for PHB1?  IE, could a person get by with only the PHB2 if they didn't like any of the race and classes in the PHB1?


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## Inyssius

malraux said:


> Is PHB2 a functional replacement for PHB1?  IE, could a person get by with only the PHB2 if they didn't like any of the race and classes in the PHB1?




*No.*


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## Atlatl Jones

malraux said:


> Is PHB2 a functional replacement for PHB1?  IE, could a person get by with only the PHB2 if they didn't like any of the race and classes in the PHB1?



It doesn't have the rules, or the basic weapons, armor, and equipment.


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## GramercyRiff

Do any of the Avenger PP's increase crit range?

Are there any feats/abilities/features that help out two handed weapons?

Are there any feats/abilities/features that enhance charges?

Any insight you can give other than yes/no is appreciated.  Of course any feedback is appreciated.


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## Talaeden_Denthiir

Dave, 

        Thanks again for doing this.

        Do Half-Elves get any love feat wise?

        How does Half-Elf Racial Paragoning work exactly?

Thanks again!


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## Rechan

I second a request for the Druid utility shifting stuff.


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## TarionzCousin

davethegame said:


> No new weapon types. I was hoping for the El Gabong Guitar of Smashing or the Combat Drums of Smiting, but no such luck.



El Gabong went to work for Paizo.

Thanks, davethegame. Keep up the good work.


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## Jack99

GMforPowergamers said:


> ok two independent source confirm it...I was just hopeing for prereqs....guess I was wrong...it is power creep...




You might want to see it as a fix for some of the issues that has been reported and armchaired for the epic tier.

Besides, since it works for everyone, it's not as a big a problem. 

You could even remove it and implement that every character gets +1  more to  hit per tier.


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## Cadfan

I just read the feat pages from the PHBII.  I'm not going to repost where, because of, you know, _laws._  Anyways, the feats look really nice.  I particularly like the feats that encourage alternating uses of different types of powers.


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## WalterKovacs

Jack99 said:


> You might want to see it as a fix for some of the issues that has been reported and armchaired for the epic tier.
> 
> Besides, since it works for everyone, it's not as a big a problem.
> 
> You could even remove it and implement that every character gets +1 more to hit per tier.




Based soley on the idea of monsters getting +1 to defence per level, a PC over time will get +6 from magic, +15 from 1/2 level, +4 (+5 with some epic destinies) from stat adjustment ... that only adds 25 or 26. Adding on this new feat, and it's only one shy of a full +30 over the 30 levels. Having it hit at level 15/25 instead of 11/21 is probably to avoid big jumps (especially at level 21, where you'd likely be getting +2 to hit by rounding up your attack stat and adding an epic destiny attack bonus).


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## davethegame

Rechan said:


> 1) What do you think is going to shock/amaze people the most? What do we not see coming?




Previously I would have said some of the newer classes, but judging from the reactions, I'm guessing the feats chapter is going to be a very surprising one for some people.



> 2) We've only seen 3 levels of the Invoker. It's hard to gauge how they really differ from wizards, and how they feel as a divine class. Can you give us a good idea of what their "schtick" is, as far as controllers go?






GMforPowergamers said:


> Do Invoker's have a good number of summons, or did we see like most of that in the one power???




They have a Summoning power at every Daily Attack level, mostly angels and blades. They have a LOT of area burst powers, much of it burst 1, so they don't have as many options for affecting as wide an area as wizards, and their powers, as a whole, seem less selective. (A lot of "Each Creature in burst.")



> 3) What feats are geared towards non-PHB2 classes/races? Any "universally useful" feats, like Improved Initiative? How about feats for PHB1 races/classes?




No feats for PHB1 races and classes, save for the one paragon feat for Half-Elves that makes Paragon multiclassing better. There are a good number of universal feats, like Improved Grab, Improved Bull Rush, Timely Respite, and a few that help with different energy types.



Mostlyjoe said:


> Just how many of these utility shapeshifts does the Druid have?




There's one Beast Form power in every utility level, though many of them are not "shapeshifts", just extra benefits you get while being wild shaped.



> What is the craziest Warden, Avenger, Shaman power that stands out to you?




The Avenger 29 "Final Oath" power just strikes me as awesome, and there's also a level 29 Shaman power that summons Death itself to do a bunch of damage and ensures anything that drops is definitely going to die.



> By Wild Magic...just what sort of wonkiness can we expect from a Wild Sorcerer?




Ahh, my favorite class! There's even a Wild Mage paragon path that increases the randomness, and has an "Area burst 1d4" power. As a whole, though, while the Wild Sorcerer is random, it doesn't have a lot that backfires (unlike the Wild Mage of yore).



Askanipsion said:


> 1) Any new cleric feats?




Nope, but there are a few feats that are useful for clerics (Implement Expertise, Restful Healing) 



> 2) What does Avenger multiclass feat give you?




Limited use of their "Oath" power.



> 3) What are some of the other Avenger feats?




Mostly ones that improve their attacks against their Oathed target, and also a feat to improve their Armor of Faith.



> 4) Is Weapon Finesse in the book where it allows you to use DEX for Basic attacks or anything like it?




There is a feat like it, but it's even more flexible.



GramercyRiff said:


> Do any of the Avenger PP's increase crit range?




Nope.



> Are there any feats/abilities/features that help out two handed weapons?




Yep, feats like "Two-Weapon Threat" and "Two-Weapon Opening"



> Are there any feats/abilities/features that enhance charges?




Only for specific classes and races.



> Any insight you can give other than yes/no is appreciated.  Of course any feedback is appreciated.




Picky picky 



Talaeden_Denthiir said:


> Do Half-Elves get any love feat wise?
> 
> How does Half-Elf Racial Paragoning work exactly?




They get the one feat that helps with the multiclass racial paragon path, and it's pretty darn good. Other than that, you'll just have to see the book.


----------



## Remathilis

davethegame said:


> There is a feat like it, but it's even more flexible.




Oh Dave, now you got me drooling. No fair! My rogue is shivering in an.ti.cip.....pation.


----------



## Dragonhelm

The table of contents mentioned occupations.  How do those work?  Just background info, any bonuses...?


----------



## davethegame

Dragonhelm said:


> The table of contents mentioned occupations.  How do those work?  Just background info, any bonuses...?




They're a kind of background, previewed here: Player's Handbook 2 Excerpts: Backgrounds

No rules for, say, being a blacksmith or anything like that, other than the background skill benefits.


----------



## Nymrohd

There is a feat, martial training, that is like intelligent blademaster but only for weapons you are proficient, and with any one ability you choose, or so I read.


----------



## bobthehappyzombie

I have heard the Stealth skill has been errata'd again.
Is it possible to post a summary of the changes as it is just an errata, I can't see that treading on Wizards toes, and it'll be handy for my game on Friday...

Sorry all I know it's not exciting super cool new stuff...


Also there is a thread over on RPGnet where a couple of ungagged guys from Japan have already got a copy.


----------



## Mengu

What do racial feats look like? Mainly interested in Half-orc and Devas.


----------



## Kez Darksun

In a sentence or two, could you describe the flavor of the Avenger Paragon paths Hammer of Judgment, Oathsworn, and Unveiled Visage?


----------



## Sir Brennen

bobthehappyzombie said:


> I have heard the Stealth skill has been errata'd again.



My understanding is that it's just the official printing of the existing online erratta (for those that didn't buy the Special Edition PHB)


----------



## davethegame

Mengu said:


> What do racial feats look like? Mainly interested in Half-orc and Devas.




Devas can improve their "Memory of a Thousand Lifetimes", get bonuses for dropping then coming back, and for dealing extra radiant damage. Half-orcs get a kind of mini-rage, and one feat gives them an extra healing surge and initiative bonus. 



Kez Darksun said:


> In a sentence or two, could you describe the flavor of the Avenger Paragon paths Hammer of Judgment, Oathsworn, and Unveiled Visage?




Avenger is going to be my article on the 13th, so I'll try to point out the paragon paths there. In the meantime, Hammer of Judgment is, well, based around wielding a Hammer (seems aimed at Dwarves or Dwarf-like characters), Oathsworn focus on their Oath of Enmity power and are concerned with the power of it, and Unveiled Visage are those who have been exposed to the true face of a God and are slowly being changed by that experience.



Sir Brennen said:


> My understanding is that it's just the official printing of the existing online erratta (for those that didn't buy the Special Edition PHB)




That's what it looks like to me... I'd have to compare them line by line to give any differences.


----------



## Kobold Avenger

What do the Shiere Knight and Turathi Highborn Paragon Paths do?  Anything impressive?

Does the Avenger get any power that pushes all adjacent non-oath enemies away?


----------



## GramercyRiff

Dave, thanks for answering my questions.  You're going out of your way to do this and that is much appreciated.

About my question regarding two handed weapons:  your answer was that there are feats called "Two Weapon Threat" and "Two Weapon Opening".  The names of these feats imply two weapons, not two handed weapons.

So are those feats for two weapons or two handed weapons?  If they're for two weapons, are there any feats/abilities/features that deal with two handed weapons, like a Greataxe, Fullblade, or the like?

Back to Avengers, are there any single target multi-attack Avenger powers?

Thanks again.  And if there's any insight you could give (I kid).


----------



## davethegame

Kobold Avenger said:


> What do the Shiere Knight and Turathi Highborn Paragon Paths do?  Anything impressive?




Turathi Highborn (for Tieflings) throw fire all around. They have a power named "Infernal Nova"

Shiere Knights (for Eladrin) focus on teleporting, with some extra fear and charm stuff.



> Does the Avenger get any power that pushes all adjacent non-oath enemies away?




Not that I saw, in fact, the close burst powers they have seem more focused on pulling enemies to them then than sending things away.



GramercyRiff said:


> About my question regarding two handed weapons:  your answer was that there are feats called "Two Weapon Threat" and "Two Weapon Opening".  The names of these feats imply two weapons, not two handed weapons.
> 
> So are those feats for two weapons or two handed weapons?  If they're for two weapons, are there any feats/abilities/features that deal with two handed weapons, like a Greataxe, Fullblade, or the like?




Oops, misread the question. Then the answer is no, nothing specific for two-handed weapons.



> Back to Avengers, are there any single target multi-attack Avenger powers?




As in, target one guy, make multiple attacks against him? Not that I saw, it's not really in their concept.


----------



## Mirtek

Are Weapon/Implement expertise worded in a way saying that you can use the former if you use a weapon as an implement? Or do you need to take both?

E.g. a swordmage applying his weapon expertice (heavy blade) to his implement attacks he makes while using a longsword as an implement?


----------



## Kez Darksun

Thanks for answering these questions.  Now for two more.  Whats the theme of the Moonstalker Shifter Paragon path and also whats the theme of the Druid Blood Moon Stalker Paragon path?


----------



## Baron Opal

Dave-

Is there anything that might help me write an analog for the akashic class from Monte's Arcana Evolved? Specifically, the information gathering ability _delve into akashic memory_?


----------



## chaotix42

Mirtek said:


> Are Weapon/Implement expertise worded in a way saying that you can use the former if you use a weapon as an implement? Or do you need to take both?
> 
> E.g. a swordmage applying his weapon expertice (heavy blade) to his implement attacks he makes while using a longsword as an implement?




Weapon Expertise specifies that you get the bonus with any power with the weapon keyword. I can only imagine that Implement Expertise says the same for implement powers.


----------



## davethegame

Mirtek said:


> Are Weapon/Implement expertise worded in a way saying that you can use the former if you use a weapon as an implement? Or do you need to take both?
> 
> E.g. a swordmage applying his weapon expertice (heavy blade) to his implement attacks he makes while using a longsword as an implement?




They look pretty exclusive to me... one says only with implement powers, and one says only with weapon powers, and those don't usually go together.



Kez Darksun said:


> Thanks for answering these questions.  Now for two more.  Whats the theme of the Moonstalker Shifter Paragon path and also whats the theme of the Druid Blood Moon Stalker Paragon path?




Moonstalker Shifter makes you more like a Werewolf (or tiger, but that seems less carried through). Howl at the moon power, turn into the animal power, tear apart prone enemies ability.

Blood Moon Stalker centers around dropping your pants and... no, sorry. I won't go there. It's focused around the Druid's beast form, and being more beastial in it.



Baron Opal said:


> Dave-
> 
> Is there anything that might help me write an analog for the akashic class from Monte's Arcana Evolved? Specifically, the information gathering ability _delve into akashic memory_?




Ah! That was the class I was trying to think of before. A lot of the Deva stuff is very reminiscent, especially their racial ability. Their feats and paragon path are a little more outside the Akashic's concept, but you'll find something there to work with.


----------



## Atlatl Jones

davethegame said:


> Ah! That was the class I was trying to think of before. A lot of the Deva stuff is very reminiscent, especially their racial ability. Their feats and paragon path are a little more outside the Akashic's concept, but you'll find something there to work with.



Their Memory of a Thousand Lifetimes can give a +1d6 bonus to any skill check, including knowledge skills.

For something more active, the FR Player's Guide has a ritual called Seek Rumor, which basically allows the ritualist to use Arcana as if it were streetwise -5 for gathering information.


----------



## GramercyRiff

Thanks again for the replies Dave.

Thought of yet another question.

What is the incentive to stay in light armor with a Barbarian?

If you don't want to be specific, is there a damage bonus, AC bonus, and/or speed bonus?  Or some other bonus not listed?


----------



## Tuft

What is the "Fey Beguiler" paragon path?


----------



## Cadfan

GramercyRiff said:


> Thanks again for the replies Dave.
> 
> Thought of yet another question.
> 
> What is the incentive to stay in light armor with a Barbarian?
> 
> If you don't want to be specific, is there a damage bonus, AC bonus, and/or speed bonus? Or some other bonus not listed?



From another forum, I've heard its +1 ac, +1 reflex per tier.

So if you've got a 12 dex as a barbarian, you can stay with hide and have a base AC of 14 and 12 reflex, or you can go with chain for the cost of a feat and have 16 AC and 11 reflex.

I can deal with that.  Chain is still a good choice, but it isn't the only possible choice.  And since it improves by tier, it makes up for you not investing further points in dexterity.

Disclaimer: This isn't personal knowledge, just what someone said on another forum.


----------



## Ratinyourwalls

Can you list the stats/skills that the races in the PHB2 get bonuses in? Thanks.


----------



## twilsemail

I know you said they are not really your thing, but I'd like to hear a bit about the Goliath.  What's the idea behind their RPP?  Do they have any interesting feats?

Also, can you name the Warden specific feats?

Many thanks.


----------



## AntlerDruid

Are there any heritage feats or any feats that would alter a cleric's At-will powers?


----------



## Plane Sailing

From what I've heard to date of the Deva, it sounds like they might really step on the toes of the Eberron Kalashtar from a thematic point of view - from what you read of them in the PHB2, do you think that the Deva are significantly different enough?

Cheers


----------



## Joshua Randall

davethegame said:


> There are a good number of universal feats, like Improved Grab, Improved Bull Rush,





Please reassure me that these feats are not going to make 4e combat overly complex.

For example, does the Improved Grab feat simply grant you some kind of bonus to the way grab already works, or does it create new rules to keep track of?


----------



## Atlatl Jones

Joshua Randall said:


> Please reassure me that these feats are not going to make 4e combat overly complex.
> 
> For example, does the Improved Grab feat simply grant you some kind of bonus to the way grab already works, or does it create new rules to keep track of?



+4 bonus, increasing to +6 at paragon and +8 at epic. That's it.


----------



## Asmor

Atlatl Jones said:


> +4 bonus, increasing to +6 at paragon and +8 at epic. That's it.




Awesome.

One of my biggest problems is that it's so hard to pull off a lot of the interesting combat stunts that it's usually not worth wasting your action. And that's a shame, because dangit, grabbing and bullrushing should be important parts of most combats!


----------



## Ed_Laprade

Way back on page one you say there are Bard only Rituals. Do they, or do they not, include those who multiclass into Bard? Or is that left up the the GM? (If there's a rule somewhere that already clarifies it, I haven't seen it, but I haven't been able to play 4E yet...)


----------



## Atlatl Jones

Ed_Laprade said:


> Way back on page one you say there are Bard only Rituals. Do they, or do they not, include those who multiclass into Bard? Or is that left up the the GM? (If there's a rule somewhere that already clarifies it, I haven't seen it, but I haven't been able to play 4E yet...)



The multiclass feats section in PHII says that the multiclass feat qualifies you for feats, paragon paths, epic destinies, and rituals.


----------



## erf_beto

speaking of bard rituals, what are they like? 
I understand "music" is envolved, but why couldn't a wizard cast them? Is it just flavor, or is there some extra mechanic or something?

Oh, and thanks for doing this


----------



## johnthedm7000

What does the demonskin adept PP give you as far as powers and abilities?


----------



## doctorhook

Plane Sailing said:


> From what I've heard to date of the Deva, it sounds like they might really step on the toes of the Eberron Kalashtar from a thematic point of view - from what you read of them in the PHB2, do you think that the Deva are significantly different enough?
> 
> Cheers



I personally completely disagree with the premise of your question, but I'll save it for another thread. 

Dave, I'm sorry if you already answered this, but can you confirm which stats the Deva gets bonuses to?


----------



## Dice4Hire

Maybe I can help out a little as Amazon Japan was kind enough to send me the book yesterday. I also, will not print stuff wholesale, but feel no other restrictions.

Deva get Wis and Int, making them nice wizards.


----------



## Dice4Hire

johnthedm7000 said:


> What does the demonskin adept PP give you as far as powers and abilities?





11th, when you spend an action points, you and allies get +3 to attack rolls, until your next turn begins, but enemies get the same +3. 

11th Versatile resistance. Once per encounter you can change the resistance you get form Sorcerer Dragon Soul or Chaos adept class feature. 

16th When you score a critical hit, both you and the opponent are blinded until the beginning of your next turn. 

The encounter is a nice attack power, the utility lets you do extra damage when bloodied fo an encounter, and the 20th level one, lets you put up a sustainable zone of blades around you. Pretty nasty.


----------



## johnthedm7000

The heroic tier feats have already been spoiled by another individual who already has a copy of the book, but I was wondering if you could tell me what sort of cool paragon feats there are and what they do?


----------



## Plane Sailing

doctorhook said:


> I personally completely disagree with the premise of your question, but I'll save it for another thread.




??? What is there in the premise of the question to disagree with???


----------



## Asmor

Plane Sailing said:


> ??? What is there in the premise of the question to disagree with???




I think doctorhook was disagreeing with the idea that the Deva were stepping on the Kalashtar's toes.


----------



## johnthedm7000

I'm also curious as to what the "Wyvern Watch" Nature-based ritual does-does it literally summon a wyvern (or a decent facsimile of one) to watch over an area? Because that would be absolutely awesome! 

More spoilerage regarding rituals in general (ones that stuck out to you as cool) would be nice as well-thank you so much!


----------



## davethegame

twilsemail said:


> I know you said they are not really your thing, but I'd like to hear a bit about the Goliath.  What's the idea behind their RPP?  Do they have any interesting feats?




Big, tough mountainous guys that thrive on competition. Their Paragon Path makes them bigger (not in size category, but does give them some of the perks of being large). Their feats make them pretty badass brute-style melee guys. I prefer some of the other races (Half-Orc, Warforged) for that.



Askanipsion said:


> Are there any heritage feats or any feats that would alter a cleric's At-will powers?




Nope.



Plane Sailing said:


> From what I've heard to date of the Deva, it sounds like they might really step on the toes of the Eberron Kalashtar from a thematic point of view - from what you read of them in the PHB2, do you think that the Deva are significantly different enough?
> 
> Cheers




Hmm, I hadn't really thought about it that much (never really gotten a chance to play in Eberron), but I could see them having some overlap, minus the psionic aspects. I wouldn't be surprised to have the two of them line up in the new campaign guide.



Joshua Randall said:


> Please reassure me that these feats are not going to make 4e combat overly complex.
> 
> For example, does the Improved Grab feat simply grant you some kind of bonus to the way grab already works, or does it create new rules to keep track of?




Just bonuses to the maneuvers that already exist.


----------



## MooNinja

what are the Deva's attributes ? stats, skill bumps etc ? Thanks!!


----------



## entropysoda

*Barb AC issue*

>Barb AC issue fixed?  
>I'm only vaguely aware of the issue, but I can tell you that they don't get 
>their Con to AC as some have suggested, but they do get an AC bump. 

What is this "bump" from?  Some kind of bonus when they wear light armor?  Please give details!  Anything that steers them away from Heavy armor?


----------



## Cadfan

entropysoda- Barbarians in light armor get +1 ac and +1 reflex per tier.

If you've got a 12 dex, that means you have the choice between the following at level 1:

14 AC, 12 reflex, a feat available of your choice
16 AC, 11 reflex, -1 speed, chainmail proficiency

I think its reasonable.  Some people will still go for the chainmail, but I think that both options are viable.


----------



## Akaiku

Do they lose this with a shield? Else I can see a decent amount of craghammer and board barbarians. Heck, it's already pretty good when you consider a urgosh.


----------



## infocynic

Shouldn't that be 15 AC? Hide 3, Dex 1, Class bonus 1 = 15.
Means you only need a 14 to stay even with the chain guy (you WILL fall behind slowly since you're not advancing dex; if you compare to say a wizard in leather who gets +1 INTMOD at 8, 14, 21 (x2 if demigod), 28, that's 4 advancements and you're only getting 3, not to mention you effectively start 1 behind if you're only going 14 dex... 

I also suspect that by the time you do fall behind you can do some retraining and pick up chain and scale and scale spec and not worry about speed anymore. 

Dex 14 also means you just have to find one extra point somewhere to get heavy blade mastery if you go for a fullblade (possibly more interesting for thaneborn, since rageblood is begging for axes/hammers).


----------



## Cadfan

infocynic said:


> Shouldn't that be 15 AC? Hide 3, Dex 1, Class bonus 1 = 15.
> Means you only need a 14 to stay even with the chain guy (you WILL fall behind slowly since you're not advancing dex; if you compare to say a wizard in leather who gets +1 INTMOD at 8, 14, 21 (x2 if demigod), 28, that's 4 advancements and you're only getting 3, not to mention you effectively start 1 behind if you're only going 14 dex...
> 
> I also suspect that by the time you do fall behind you can do some retraining and pick up chain and scale and scale spec and not worry about speed anymore.
> 
> Dex 14 also means you just have to find one extra point somewhere to get heavy blade mastery if you go for a fullblade (possibly more interesting for thaneborn, since rageblood is begging for axes/hammers).



Yeah.  It should be a 15.  I wrote that it was a 14 because I am an idiot.


----------



## Dice4Hire

johnthedm7000 said:


> The heroic tier feats have already been spoiled by another individual who already has a copy of the book, but I was wondering if you could tell me what sort of cool paragon feats there are and what they do?




Here are a few ......

Draconic spellfury (gotta have the dragon magic sorcerer class featue)
Gain temp hp equal to str modifier when you hit with an at-will sorc power.

Paragon defenses (requirement 11th level only)
+1 to fort, Ref, Will defenses.

And one I REALLY like

Reserve Manouver
No text, but basically you get to choose an encounter ability less than your level that you do not have and switch it in for one of your ener abilities when you tkae a rest. So any class can get a kind of poor-man's spellbook for a single encounter. As you can switch it in or out every time you rest, I think it will be very nice.


----------



## Dice4Hire

johnthedm7000 said:


> I'm also curious as to what the "Wyvern Watch" Nature-based ritual does-does it literally summon a wyvern (or a decent facsimile of one) to watch over an area? Because that would be absolutely awesome!
> 
> More spoilerage regarding rituals in general (ones that stuck out to you as cool) would be nice as well-thank you so much!




The ritual does indeed summon a ghostly wyvern that is hard to see (your arcana check is the DC for perception to see it) that attacks once when a non-designated creature enters the area. You know about it no matter where you are, and then the ritual is over. 

There are quite a few bard-only rituals, so someone who wants a broader base of rituals may need to multi-class into bard to qualify for them. 

A couple interesting ones:

Call Wilderness Guide is very similar to Find the Path. (Man how I hated that spell!!!) with a duration up to 8 hours. You get a minion nature spirit that leads you somewhere you name specifically,and is known. 

Aria of Revelation (bard only) give s a massive bonus to Nature, History, Arcana. Dungeoneering, or Religion checks. Should help you recall most anything about a specific monster, or really help some skill challenges.


----------



## Dice4Hire

Akaiku said:


> Do they lose this with a shield? Else I can see a decent amount of craghammer and board barbarians. Heck, it's already pretty good when you consider a urgosh.




The barbarians lose the per-tier AC/Reflex +1 only if they wear heavy armor, it says nothing about shields. On the other hand, barbarians get no shield proficiencies.

So yes, Board and Craghammer looks like a nice build.


----------



## Dice4Hire

And one feat I am very iffy about:

Melee Training

Benefit: Choose an ability other than strength. When you make a melee basic attack using a weapon you are proficient with, you can use that ability instead of strength for the attack roll and the damage roll. 

Is it just me, or are they already trying to hose the idea of needing several stats to be good. With this, any character will do good melee basic attacks, with their wisdom, dex, or even charisma.


----------



## Vael

Don't the Barb at-wills require 2-Handed weapons though? I thought that was on the Delve sheets.


----------



## MacMathan

So does anyone know if Amazon Japan ships to the US? 

Yes I am impatient, why do you ask?

Oh and I may have missed it in this thread but Half-Orcs are +2 Str and +2????


----------



## AntlerDruid

What does the eladrin racial background do?


Thanks for answering our questions


----------



## Ratinyourwalls

Which stats do Devas/Goliaths/Half-Orcs get bonuses in?


----------



## Shroomy

Dice4Hire said:


> And one feat I am very iffy about:
> 
> Melee Training
> 
> Benefit: Choose an ability other than strength. When you make a melee basic attack using a weapon you are proficient with, you can use that ability instead of strength for the attack roll and the damage roll.
> 
> Is it just me, or are they already trying to hose the idea of needing several stats to be good. With this, any character will do good melee basic attacks, with their wisdom, dex, or even charisma.




I'm not worried.  Characters will always need at least two good stats just to make their class function properly, and probably three if they want to qualify for various feats, PPs, etc.  This is just a way to allow non-Str classes that should be good at melee OAs (I'm looking at you Cha-paladin and rogue) to actually be good at melee OAs.


----------



## Runestar

MacMathan said:


> So does anyone know if Amazon Japan ships to the US?
> 
> Yes I am impatient, why do you ask?
> 
> Oh and I may have missed it in this thread but Half-Orcs are +2 Str and +2????




+2str/dex, so it seems...

Not sure what their racial power is, but it seems we have a new brutal scoundrel.

And the deva would make for the perfect orb wizard, considering its racial +2int/wis bonus.


----------



## Majoru Oakheart

infocynic said:


> Means you only need a 14 to stay even with the chain guy (you WILL fall behind slowly since you're not advancing dex; if you compare to say a wizard in leather who gets +1 INTMOD at 8, 14, 21 (x2 if demigod), 28, that's 4 advancements and you're only getting 3, not to mention you effectively start 1 behind if you're only going 14 dex..



And this is what I'm most concerned about.  Until now, I hadn't seen any class whose AC didn't scale at the same rate as everyone else.

EVERY class has Int or Dex as either their primary or secondary stat OR they get an ability that adds their primary or secondary stat to their AC.

So far every character I've made up chooses his primary and secondary stats as his stat bumps at EVERY chance.  And I don't much see a reason not to except maybe 1 or 2 levels to qualify for a feat.

That being the case, as you mention, everyone gains 4 to their AC from 1st level to 30th level EXCEPT Barbarians(and the defending Shaman who has Con as a secondary).  Barbarians only gain 2.

They already start with the lowest average AC out of any class.  They'd better be able to generate temp hitpoints like CRAZY to make up for their AC.


----------



## Majoru Oakheart

Runestar said:


> +2str/dex, so it seems...
> 
> Not sure what their racial power is, but it seems we have a new brutal scoundrel.




Half-orc Resilience: The first time you are bloodied you gain 5 temp hp (increase to 10 at 11th level and 15 at 21st level)

Swift Charge: You gain a +2 bonus to speed when charging.

Furious Assault: encounter/ free action/ trigger (you hit an enemy)- attack deals an extra 1(W) if it is a weapon attack or 1d8 if it isn't.


----------



## Piratecat

I may have missed it elsewhere. What's the fiction/fluff behind the deva, anyone know?


----------



## Majoru Oakheart

Piratecat said:


> I may have missed it elsewhere. What's the fiction/fluff behind the deva, anyone know?




I don't know their origin, however, I know that they resolve around being reincarnated over and over again.  They remember portions of their previous lives but not all of them.  Why they keep reincarnating and where they can from originally, I have no idea.


----------



## infocynic

Majoru Oakheart said:


> And this is what I'm most concerned about.  Until now, I hadn't seen any class whose AC didn't scale at the same rate as everyone else.
> 
> EVERY class has Int or Dex as either their primary or secondary stat OR they get an ability that adds their primary or secondary stat to their AC.
> 
> So far every character I've made up chooses his primary and secondary stats as his stat bumps at EVERY chance.  And I don't much see a reason not to except maybe 1 or 2 levels to qualify for a feat.
> 
> That being the case, as you mention, everyone gains 4 to their AC from 1st level to 30th level EXCEPT Barbarians(and the defending Shaman who has Con as a secondary).  Barbarians only gain 2.
> 
> They already start with the lowest average AC out of any class.  They'd better be able to generate temp hitpoints like CRAZY to make up for their AC.



Well, Starlocks who try to do both CON and CHA have issues (or have to take chain), Melee rangers have to take Chain unless doing scimitar dance/stormwarden, and there was one other new class that had a choice of secondaries where one of the secondaries wasn't dex/int and didn't apply to AC. I can't remember which off-hand. And no chain proficiency.

Maybe martial power 2 will give my ranger a way to get chain for free (I'd trade toughness if I had to). Oooh, I know, I'll give up Prime Shot.


----------



## Anguirus

> Is it just me, or are they already trying to hose the idea of needing several stats to be good. With this, any character will do good melee basic attacks, with their wisdom, dex, or even charisma.




Who cares?  A cleric, wizard, etc. is still wasting his action by using a melee basic.  The only practical effect is to improve OAs, and frankly, being not-terrible at OAs is worth a feat.

It also instantly solves a major problem with the Charisma paladin.


----------



## Kitsune

Do any of the new classes use Con as a primary stat, or are infernal warlocks still the only one?


----------



## Joshua Randall

Dice4Hire said:


> Melee Training
> 
> Benefit: Choose an ability other than strength. When you make a melee basic attack using a weapon you are proficient with, you can use that ability instead of strength for the attack roll and the damage roll.



This feat is an worthwhile addition to the game, allowing all classes to have a credible melee basic attack instead of just Str-based classes (and swordmages).



Shroomy said:


> This is just a way to allow non-Str classes that should be good at melee OAs (I'm looking at you Cha-paladin and rogue) to actually be good at melee OAs.



Right.



Anguirus said:


> Who cares?  A cleric, wizard, etc. is still wasting his action by using a melee basic.



Unless they aren't because it was the warlord (or similar) granting them an extra action. Or it was an OA.


----------



## Cadfan

Majoru Oakheart said:


> That being the case, as you mention, everyone gains 4 to their AC from 1st level to 30th level EXCEPT Barbarians(and the defending Shaman who has Con as a secondary). Barbarians only gain 2.



Wouldn't it be three?

The +1 ac/ref scales by tier, so that's +2.  And while they don't focus on dex or int, they get the free +1 at each tier, for a net +1 modifier.  So +3 total.

I have no idea how well they work in actual gameplay.  None at all.  But I have really, really high hopes for a character class that has decent hit points, terrible AC, and the ability to pile on temporary hit points and damage like there's no tomorrow.  If it works, it will be a great way to play on the edge.


----------



## Majoru Oakheart

Cadfan said:


> Wouldn't it be three?
> 
> The +1 ac/ref scales by tier, so that's +2.  And while they don't focus on dex or int, they get the free +1 at each tier, for a net +1 modifier.  So +3 total.



Except the average AC at 1st level is 16(most light armor users have leather+18 in Dex of Int).

Even if we assume Barbarians are going to drop a 12 in Dex(so far, only 1 of the 3 I've seen played have.  They've gone with a 10 Dex in order to put more points in Str and Con), then they will have a 15 AC at first level WITH their bonus.  They are already below average.

And I was measuring the growth after first level.  A Barbarian who starts at 15 AC will have 17 AC at 30(without the rest of the bonuses common to everyone).  A Wizard who starts with 14 AC will have an 18 AC(19 with Demigod) at 30th.  Thus, 2 growth instead of 4.



Cadfan said:


> I have no idea how well they work in actual gameplay.  None at all.  But I have really, really high hopes for a character class that has decent hit points, terrible AC, and the ability to pile on temporary hit points and damage like there's no tomorrow.  If it works, it will be a great way to play on the edge.



I love the idea.  So far, in our playtests, it hasn't materialized.  They've had ACs of 13 or 14.  They've been able to generate 4 temp hitpoints every second round or so, but that's been nowhere near enough to stop them from going down all the time.

One of my friends who plays a Barbarian in LFR had pretty much stopped playing it because he was tired of dropping every single combat.  Plus, apparently he misses using Avalanche Strike almost 80% of the time due to bad die rolls.  He finally took Chain armor.  He's enjoyed his character since.  But he didn't want to take it.  He liked the idea of the Barbarian wearing light armor.  He was hoping to retrain out of the feat once he got his Con bonus to AC(since that was the rumor going around).  Now that he's heard that it is only a +1 bonus, he's decided it's still a no-brainer for him to keep the Chain proficiency.


----------



## Cadfan

Majoru Oakheart said:


> And I was measuring the growth after first level. A Barbarian who starts at 15 AC will have 17 AC at 30(without the rest of the bonuses common to everyone). A Wizard who starts with 14 AC will have an 18 AC(19 with Demigod) at 30th. Thus, 2 growth instead of 4.



Maybe I'm just being an idiot.

The wizard who starts with a base 14 will get +8 to his intelligence, improving his AC by 4.

The barbarian who starts with a base 14 will get +2 to his dexterity (for +1 ac), and +2 due to his class feature.  So a total of 3.

I don't see where I'm missing anything.

As for the general starting point of a barbarian's AC... I forget sometimes that everyone else plays point buy.  I play array.  In my games a barbarian would have a 12 or 13 in dex or int as a matter of course.  In a point buy game, people can specialize more, which psychologically tends to mean dumping defense for more offense.  I don't know what to say about this part other than that its not an issue that will bedevil my game.


----------



## Majoru Oakheart

Cadfan said:


> The wizard who starts with a base 14 will get +8 to his intelligence, improving his AC by 4.
> 
> The barbarian who starts with a base 14 will get +2 to his dexterity (for +1 ac), and +2 due to his class feature.  So a total of 3.




Oops.  I forgot the 2 mandatory pluses to Dex.  Sheesh, you'd think I'd remember.  Well, that actually makes it a bit better.  You don't fall much behind after all.

I still think their AC is a little low, but you've convinced me it might be tolerable.  I just want to see how their powers changed from the playtest.


----------



## davethegame

Piratecat said:


> I may have missed it elsewhere. What's the fiction/fluff behind the deva, anyone know?




They were once astral servitors of the gods who incarnated in the world to fight evil, and are constantly reincarnated. They don't reproduce, but when they reincarnate, they wake up fully grown in a sacred location. It's also mentioned that if they become corrupted, they risk becoming raksasha.


----------



## davethegame

Kitsune said:


> Do any of the new classes use Con as a primary stat, or are infernal warlocks still the only one?




Still just Infernal Warlocks.


----------



## Shroomy

davethegame said:


> They were once astral servitors of the gods who incarnated in the world to fight evil, and are constantly reincarnated. They don't reproduce, but when they reincarnate, they wake up fully grown in a sacred location. It's also mentioned that if they become corrupted, they risk becoming raksasha.




I liked the concept of the deva when I first heard about, but when we learned that a corrupt deva can become a raksasha, the deva pretty much leapt to the top of my list when it comes to races.  Hopefully, someday there will some sort of mechanical support for a corrupt deva...


----------



## Asmor

Just wanted to chime in with respect to the barbarian AC issue.

I just played a level 10 kobold barbarian last night, with 20 AC. I almost never got missed. I also got attacked a lot. I also only got to spend three healing surges. And I ended the night with 89 out of 92 hit points (the night having been one and a half fights with no short rest between them). Everyone else is in considerably worse condition.

In the first fight, I had the Frost Wolf Rage manifested, so I _wanted_ to be hit. In the second fight, with all my encounters spent, I'm using Stone Bear Rage and if I can ever manage to make my save and wake up I'm going to be going toe to toe with a dragon, with resist 7 damage and recuperating strike for 9 temp hp a round.

All this is to say, I really don't mind having a low AC. The barbarian's supposed to be hit-- he's got plenty of HP and plenty of damage mitigation.


----------



## Kez Darksun

One other class I'd like a bit more information on, in regards to their paragon paths, is the Invoker.  I've got a Deva Invoker in mind right now, and I'd love to see if any of their paragon paths just seems to click with the rough workings of the character that I have now.


----------



## Rechan

Shroomy said:


> Hopefully, someday there will some sort of mechanical support for a corrupt deva...



Do you mean like, rules on the effects of corruption on a deva?

Because I seem to recall it being mentioned there will be corrupt deva in the MM2.


----------



## Pour

At NYComicon, I think it was Chris Perkins who mentioned corrupt Deva are actually Rakshasa.


----------



## Felon

MacMathan said:


> Oh and I may have missed it in this thread but Half-Orcs are +2 Str and +2????



Wisdom


----------



## Felon

Joshua Randall said:


> This feat is an worthwhile addition to the game, allowing all classes to have a credible melee basic attack instead of just Str-based classes (and swordmages).



And why is every class entitled to have a credible melee basic attack? Isn't the point of investing a decent number in an ability score that you reap some benefit that the guy who lowballed it doesn't? Shouldn't there be some slight imposition to being a paladin with pipe-cleaner arms that can't be ameliorated with a feat? 

This is one of the big ham-handed elements of 4e. After you're done plugging in these different variables, the end goal seems to be to wind up with everyone having the same bonuses. The notion that a class is broken if it can't use its best ability scores to derive all important stats begs the question of why the heck the game bothers to have ability scores in the first place.

Another case in point...



Majoru Oakheart said:


> And this is what I'm most concerned about.  Until now, I hadn't seen any class whose AC didn't scale at the same rate as everyone else.
> 
> EVERY class has Int or Dex as either their primary or secondary stat OR they get an ability that adds their primary or secondary stat to their AC.
> 
> So far every character I've made up chooses his primary and secondary stats as his stat bumps at EVERY chance.  And I don't much see a reason not to except maybe 1 or 2 levels to qualify for a feat.
> 
> That being the case, as you mention, everyone gains 4 to their AC from 1st level to 30th level EXCEPT Barbarians(and the defending Shaman who has Con as a secondary).  Barbarians only gain 2.
> 
> They already start with the lowest average AC out of any class.  They'd better be able to generate temp hitpoints like CRAZY to make up for their AC.



I've got a player with the playtest barbarian. After all the clamor about barbarians having a lower AC, it turns out that he has the same AC as the paladin would have if he didn't use a shield. He spent a couple of feats on armor proficiencies. Apparently, in 4e having a mediocre aility score won't force you to live with a below-average bonus for attack, damage, or AC--it just means you'll have to spend a feat to catch up.

But again, what's the point of finding different ways to derive AC if the ultimate of goal of a "well-designed" class is that it will ultimately have the same AC as any other class of that level?



Cadfan said:


> As for the general starting point of a barbarian's AC... I forget sometimes that everyone else plays point buy.  I play array.  In my games a barbarian would have a 12 or 13 in dex or int as a matter of course.  In a point buy game, people can specialize more, which psychologically tends to mean dumping defense for more offense.  I don't know what to say about this part other than that its not an issue that will bedevil my game.



See, my group uses array too. I suspect if we used point-buy, you'd see every character with two inflated ability scores, and after that the rest will get lowballed unless there's some feat they want to meet the prereqs for.


----------



## Felon

Piratecat said:


> I may have missed it elsewhere. What's the fiction/fluff behind the deva, anyone know?



The FR Player's Guide identifies devas as the beings formerly referred to as Aasimar. They are angels incarnated in mortal flesh, and they reincarnate in perpetuity.


----------



## Piratecat

Fenarisk said:


> What? This isn't even correct they are +2 str and +2 dex stop spreading blatant misinformation.



It's okay to correct someone who's mistaken without accusing them of lying.


----------



## Piratecat

davethegame said:


> They were once astral servitors of the gods who incarnated in the world to fight evil, and are constantly reincarnated. They don't reproduce, but when they reincarnate, they wake up fully grown in a sacred location. It's also mentioned that if they become corrupted, they risk becoming raksasha.



Cooool...

Thanks, Dave!


----------



## Majoru Oakheart

Felon said:


> Wisdom




Dex actually.  This has been confirmed in the other thread with the people who own the books.


----------



## Kobold Avenger

One thing I don't think that anyone asked is...  What are totems supposed to look like?


----------



## Kez Darksun

Kobold Avenger said:


> One thing I don't think that anyone asked is...  What are totems supposed to look like?




From the Shaman preview:  Shamans use totems carved to resemble the spirits they most commonly call upon, particularly their spirit companions.


----------



## Joshua Randall

Felon said:


> And why is every class entitled to have a credible melee basic attack?



Because it is a key element of combat, and because there is an entire class (the warlord) whose shtick depends on granting people extra actions. 



> Isn't the point of investing a decent number in an ability score that you reap some benefit that the guy who lowballed it doesn't?



Jeez, it's just melee basic attacks. It's not like this feat allows the wizard or the rogue to use Int or Dex for Str-based _powers_.



> The notion that a class is broken if it can't use its best ability scores to derive all important stats begs the question of why the heck the game bothers to have ability scores in the first place.



You overstate things to make your point, but I essentially agree with you. Ability score are obsolete, but I think they are too much of a sacred cow for D&D to kill them off completely.


----------



## Majoru Oakheart

Felon said:


> And why is every class entitled to have a credible melee basic attack? Isn't the point of investing a decent number in an ability score that you reap some benefit that the guy who lowballed it doesn't? Shouldn't there be some slight imposition to being a paladin with pipe-cleaner arms that can't be ameliorated with a feat?



There is.  You get to use your class powers better than someone with a different stat.  The game is based around class powers.  Basic attacks are used so rarely that this feat won't even apply most of the time.  The reason every class deserves to have a credible melee basic attack is because you can't hit with a decent chance of success with less than an 18 in your primary stat.  You need at least a 16 in your secondary stat for it to be useful in most cases.  Both of these stats need to scale in order to keep up with the curve.  So, there are just no points left for STR or DEX if you don't use them as a primary or secondary stat.



Felon said:


> This is one of the big ham-handed elements of 4e. After you're done plugging in these different variables, the end goal seems to be to wind up with everyone having the same bonuses. The notion that a class is broken if it can't use its best ability scores to derive all important stats begs the question of why the heck the game bothers to have ability scores in the first place.



Yes, the goal is to have CLOSE to the same numbers as everyone else.  While still allowing for a little variations based on theme.  My fighter, for instance, only started with a 17 STR because he wanted a 15 DEX and WIS so he could qualify for polearm feats.  Which makes him different from the 16 STR Dwarf Fighter I know who has even lower strength so that he'd be tougher by taking an 18 CON.  This allows the Warforged Fighter I know with 20 STR to really shine in the hit and damage department.  But not shine enough that I feel completely useless playing with him.

On the other hand, if you were suddenly tell us that for our class to be able to make OAs, we'd need a decent INT, I'd get annoyed, and likely would never use OAs.  They don't happen enough to sacrifice my chance of hitting with my real powers.

Oh, and I agree that ability scores are not important.  They could be gotten rid of, but they currently still provide a bit of variation in characters.  I still have to sacrifice my Diplomacy check in order to have my stats, and it provides me a disadvantage in Skill Challenges.



Felon said:


> I've got a player with the playtest barbarian. After all the clamor about barbarians having a lower AC, it turns out that he has the same AC as the paladin would have if he didn't use a shield. He spent a couple of feats on armor proficiencies. Apparently, in 4e having a mediocre aility score won't force you to live with a below-average bonus for attack, damage, or AC--it just means you'll have to spend a feat to catch up.
> 
> But again, what's the point of finding different ways to derive AC if the ultimate of goal of a "well-designed" class is that it will ultimately have the same AC as any other class of that level?



Because you shouldn't have to "find ways" to derive AC.  Especially not while staying in theme.  In books, fantasy paintings, movies and the like, the Rogue is always wearing leather or no armor.  It's the typical image of a Rogue.  Right now the game works fine as a Rogue with leather armor.  But, assume that you got your CON bonus instead of DEX bonus.  You'd probably typically have an AC of 13.  And you'd drop nearly constantly.  So, the only solution to it would be to take chain armor.  Then every Rogue would be wearing chain.  Which ruins the view of Rogue in my eyes.

The same thing applies to Barbarians.  They should be wearing light armor.  So, you need to make to mechanically good to do so.  You also shouldn't be BAD unless you spend a feat.  You should be average and perfectly playable without any feats at all.  Feats should be taken to enhance specific areas that you want to be better than other people at.

I have no problem with the idea that a Barbarian can take a feat to make his AC go up slightly.  But currently, the armor proficiencies don't really help any other class as much as them.

As for your other comment, having a mediocre ability score in 4e can't be make up for at all.  Except Barbarians who take armor proficiency.  A Wizard with a 14 INT is going to miss with most of his powers for the entirety of the game all the way to level 30 with no feat that can change that.



Felon said:


> See, my group uses array too. I suspect if we used point-buy, you'd see every character with two inflated ability scores, and after that the rest will get lowballed unless there's some feat they want to meet the prereqs for.



Yeah, that's the typical 4e character.  I have yet to see a character made whose primary and secondary stats were less than 16.  Typically with one of them as an 18.  Then the rest of the points are distributed afterwords.  The game encourages this.  In many places.  The designers specifically wrote it into the advice for the classes, saying that your best stat should be your primary, your second best your secondary then worry about the other stats.


----------



## Felon

Joshua Randall said:


> Because it is a key element of combat, and because there is an entire class (the warlord) whose shtick depends on granting people extra actions.



The the guys with a good ability score in Strength should reap the benefit. The guys who bombed their Str to 8 should suck it up. Cost, benefit. No cost, consequence.



> Jeez, it's just melee basic attacks. It's not like this feat allows the wizard or the rogue to use Int or Dex for Str-based _powers_.



Can't have it both ways. It's either important or it's not. And as you point out with the warlord, many PHB powers interface with basic attacks, and their balance assumed that basic attacks are suboptimal. Take the rogue's Riposte at-will. This feat makes that follow-up attack far more powerful.


----------



## Felon

Majoru Oakheart said:


> There is.  You get to use your class powers better than someone with a different stat.  The game is based around class powers.  Basic attacks are used so rarely that this feat won't even apply most of the time.  The reason every class deserves to have a credible melee basic attack is because you can't hit with a decent chance of success with less than an 18 in your primary stat.  You need at least a 16 in your secondary stat for it to be useful in most cases.  Both of these stats need to scale in order to keep up with the curve.  So, there are just no points left for STR or DEX if you don't use them as a primary or secondary stat.



The the guys with a good ability score in Strength should reap the benefit. The guys who bombed their Str to 8 should suck it up. Cost, benefit. No cost, consequence.

Pirmary ability scores need to be as high as possible. Secondary ability scores, however, do not not need to be at least 16 in most cases. A 14 will yield good benefits. If not, then humans wouldn't be quite as good of a pick as they are. 



> Yes, the goal is to have CLOSE to the same numbers as everyone else.  While still allowing for a little variations based on theme.  My fighter, for instance, only started with a 17 STR because he wanted a 15 DEX and WIS so he could qualify for polearm feats.  Which makes him different from the 16 STR Dwarf Fighter I know who has even lower strength so that he'd be tougher by taking an 18 CON.  This allows the Warforged Fighter I know with 20 STR to really shine in the hit and damage department.  But not shine enough that I feel completely useless playing with him.



The fighter is worth noting as the class that had the right idea. There are different benefits for distributing ability scores differently, and it's not necessarily just reflected betwen only two of the six ability scores. Unfortunately, just about every other class is a departure from that design.



> On the other hand, if you were suddenly tell us that for our class to be able to make OAs, we'd need a decent INT, I'd get annoyed, and likely would never use OAs.  They don't happen enough to sacrifice my chance of hitting with my real powers.



But OA's don't need INT. They need an ability score that's appropriate to making a basic attack. I just don't see where it's a good thing to see 98 lb. weakling paladins as the norm. It's similar to your thematic issues with the barbarian's armor.



> The same thing applies to Barbarians.  They should be wearing light armor.  So, you need to make to mechanically good to do so.  You also shouldn't be BAD unless you spend a feat.  You should be average and perfectly playable without any feats at all.  Feats should be taken to enhance specific areas that you want to be better than other people at.
> 
> I have no problem with the idea that a Barbarian can take a feat to make his AC go up slightly.  But currently, the armor proficiencies don't really help any other class as much as them.



There are a couple of options when it comes to AC: wear armor, or be nimble. If the barb is wearing a loincloth, and he's a clumsy ox, then why shouldn't he be getting hit more often than others who actively invested in AC? 



> Yeah, that's the typical 4e character.  I have yet to see a character made whose primary and secondary stats were less than 16.  Typically with one of them as an 18.  Then the rest of the points are distributed afterwords.  The game encourages this.  In many places.  The designers specifically wrote it into the advice for the classes, saying that your best stat should be your primary, your second best your secondary then worry about the other stats.



Sure, 3e encouraged that too, just to a more reasonable degree. The difference is, there were still plenty of choices and consequences for how to align ability scores. I expected to 4e to improve upon this.


----------



## Drakhar

Felon said:


> But OA's don't need INT. They need an ability score that's appropriate to making a basic attack. I just don't see where it's a good thing to see 98 lb. weakling paladins as the norm. It's similar to your thematic issues with the barbarian's armor.




Then limit Melee Training to allowing them to use Dex, nimble enough to sneak your weapon in to attack, or Int, smart enough to notice the opening. Heck Wisdom could be used to as an attack stat if you're creative enough. The only stat that really doesn't make much sense to be used as a melee attack stat is Con, although.. if it was a counter attack based attack I could imagine it working..


----------



## Piratecat

Felon, please fork or start a new thread if you want to discuss that. I'd rather this thread not be derailed.


----------



## Cadfan

Felon said:


> The the guys with a good ability score in Strength should reap the benefit. The guys who bombed their Str to 8 should suck it up. Cost, benefit. No cost, consequence.



Feat = cost.


----------



## Felon

Cadfan said:


> Feat = cost.



Not really.


Piratecat said:


> Felon, please fork or start a new thread if you want to discuss that. I'd rather this thread not be derailed.



Fair enough. I wanted to get back to your deva questions anyway. 

What do devas look like? Are they distinguishable as what they are?


----------



## WalterKovacs

One thing about the "weakling paladin's" ... it's perfectly ok for them to be beating up the baddies with a melee weapon the entire fight ... except when it's with an OA? A rogue is able to wield a rapier or dagger as if he had weapon finesse most of the time ... unless he tries to hit the guy that is passing by?

Now for some [using it with a wizard or warlock, for example] it's going to be a bit weird. However, for the people most likely to be using it ... it allows them to use the same stat they use for every _other_ melee attack when they charge, make an OA, etc. Rogue's with DEX, Paladins with CHA, Avengers with WIS, Swordmages with INT ... they all have melee weapon powers that don't use STR ... is it that far fetched for them to apply the same skills that allow them to do so many non-STR based melee attacks to make OAs, charges, and help out the warlord?

Ultimately, they still miss out in other areas. The biggest is that ... weapon feats ultimately rely on STR. There are a few that don't, but it's mostly STR and another stat, especially the epic tier. There is also grabbing and bull rushing, which now have feats to make them viable options. STR is also tied to Athletics which, unlike most skills, is one that everyone in the party may require (climbing, escaping grabs, etc).

Not to mention, that wizards and warlocks, etc ... would have to invest in magical weapons in addition to their implements (although their are options like pact blades ... which until now were a bit odd as there were pretty few uses for them as the class didn't really lend itself to having stats that would have allowed them to attack with it, if anything it was for charismatic rogues that multiclassed into warlock) and even then, they begin with little in the way of weapon proficiencies, and will either give up more useful properties of their implements, or dual wield weapon with implement, therefore avoiding two handed weapons, weilding two weapons, or having a weapon and shield.

Each stat matters, however they have made it so that less and less is there a single stat that always matters more than the rest.

EDIT: Oops ... didn't see the fork request.


----------



## Felon

Majoru Oakheart said:


> Dex actually.  This has been confirmed in the other thread with the people who own the books.





Fenarisk said:


> What? This isn't even correct they are +2 str and +2 dex stop spreading blatant misinformation.



The spoilers I read at RPGNet said Wisdom. That one was, IIRC, based on a half-orc avenger folks got a preview of, so Dave's PHB2 preview trumps it, unfortunately. Few dual stats make sense for the orc, but I found Wisdom to be about as reasonable as it gets. Dex, less so.

Honestly, the half-orc hardly needs two complimentary ability score boosts, as he three really, really good class features that smack of power creep all by themselves.


----------



## ff6shadow

Felon said:


> Can't have it both ways. It's either important or it's not. And as you point out with the warlord, many PHB powers interface with basic attacks, and their balance assumed that basic attacks are suboptimal. Take the rogue's Riposte at-will. This feat makes that follow-up attack far more powerful.




I want to point out that this is wrong. Riposte Strike doesn't give a basic attack as a counter, so it gains no boost at all.


Back on tpoic, could someone explain how Coordinated Explosion and Restful Healing work?


----------



## TarionzCousin

Felon said:


> What do devas look like? Are they distinguishable as what they are?



Generally they wear slinky shiny low-cut dresses with big hair and even bigger voices.


----------



## CelticMutt

Felon said:


> The spoilers I read at RPGNet said Wisdom. That one was, IIRC, based on a half-orc avenger folks got a preview of, so Dave's PHB2 preview trumps it, unfortunately. Few dual stats make sense for the orc, but I found Wisdom to be about as reasonable as it gets. Dex, less so.
> 
> Honestly, the half-orc hardly needs two complimentary ability score boosts, as he three really, really good class features that smack of power creep all by themselves.



Dex is still the confirmed stat, repeatedly.  And there's nothing "power creep" about their racials.  Gnomes and Devas are far closer to that than Half-Orcs.


----------



## fissionessence

About the druid's animal-themed feats . . . do any of them encourage you to take on specific animal shapes, in order to distinguish a wolf _wild shape_ from a panther _wild shape_? I know there are utility powers like _skittering sneak_, but I'm just talking about _wild shape_ enhancements.

The reason I ask is that after the initial druid preview in December, I pitched a Class Acts article that never got a response, but I'm writing it anyway for a Silent7Seven Games release. It's basically a series of feats that only work when you're manifesting the correct animal/beast shape, so I want to make sure it doesn't have much overlap with existing feats.

Thanks!

~ fissionessence


----------



## Inyssius

fissionessence said:


> About the druid's animal-themed feats . . . do any of them encourage you to take on specific animal shapes, in order to distinguish a wolf _wild shape_ from a panther _wild shape_? I know there are utility powers like _skittering sneak_, but I'm just talking about _wild shape_ enhancements.




Feats? No. Thank god.



> _The reason I ask is that after the initial druid preview in December, I pitched a Class Acts article that never got a response, but I'm writing it anyway for a Silent7Seven Games release. It's basically a series of feats that only work when you're manifesting the correct animal/beast shape, so I want to make sure it doesn't have much overlap with existing feats._




I personally would *despise* such official incentives for _fluff specialization_. The biggest thing about the druid, shaman, and warden now? The thing I really, really love? The way you can *decide for yourself* what your wildshapes, forms, and spirit look like. I don't want a wolf, I want an angel. Or an otyugh. Or a six-armed ethereal owlbear with an emphasis on mobility instead of raw power. Or _myself_, holding magic daggers. It is very easy to choose your own flavor now as far as I've seen, and have that flavor match the mechanics regardless of how outlandish that flavor is; and I would hate to see that passed over in favor of someone who prefers druids as A MOOSE AND NOTHING ELSE BUT.

Well, your mileage may vary. And obviously does. I have no problems with that, I guess. 

(on an entirely unrelated note, good _lord_. Is there any particular reason why all the ENWorld smilies look so dumb?)


----------



## Campbell

I don't see why Strength and Dexterity would be seen as more complementary than Strength and Wisdom given the way 4e is structured. So far, the only classes really prioritize Strength and Dexterity in the same build are Fighters and Rogues, although Barbarians and melee oriented Rangers definitely benefit from the Dexterity. Strength and Wisdom are important to weapon using Clerics, melee-focused Rangers, Wardens, Strength-focused Paladins, and Fighters.

One interesting element of Half Orcs receiving boosts to Strength and Dexterity is that it promotes using the race in a manner that is consistent with their initial appearance in AD&D where they had decent progressions as Fighters, Thieves, Thief-Acrobats, and had an unlimited progression as Assassins. They could be clerics, but only had a minimal progression.


----------



## ppaladin123

Campbell said:


> I don't see why Strength and Dexterity would be seen as more complementary than Strength and Wisdom given the way 4e is structured. So far, the only classes really prioritize Strength and Dexterity in the same build are Fighters and Rogues, although Barbarians and melee oriented Rangers definitely benefit from the Dexterity. Strength and Wisdom are important to weapon using Clerics, melee-focused Rangers, Wardens, Strength-focused Paladins, and Fighters.
> 
> One interesting element of Half Orcs receiving boosts to Strength and Dexterity is that it promotes using the race in a manner that is consistent with their initial appearance in AD&D where they had decent progressions as Fighters, Thieves, Thief-Acrobats, and had an unlimited progression as Assassins. They could be clerics, but only had a minimal progression.





One of the best, high-damage builds involves the storm warden paragon path for two-weapon melee rangers. Most of its special features are keyed off of the character's dexterity score. Half-orcs have the ideal stats for that build.


----------



## WalterKovacs

ff6shadow said:


> Back on tpoic, could someone explain how Coordinated Explosion and Restful Healing work?




After a rest (either short or extended), you maximize healing done before the next encounter. (i.e. a cleric's healing word wouldn't roll the 1d6's instead just assuming you've maxed out the rolls).

It basically encourages/rewards the players for taking multiple short rests in a row and using their healing word to maximize healing.


----------



## andarilhor

WalterKovacs said:


> After a rest (either short or extended), you maximize healing done before the next encounter. (i.e. a cleric's healing word wouldn't roll the 1d6's instead just assuming you've maxed out the rolls).
> 
> It basically encourages/rewards the players for taking multiple short rests in a row and using their healing word to maximize healing.




Seems to me as a way to give other leaders a little of the bard song of rest, and maybe raising this bard ability itself.


----------



## jgsugden

I would be curious to hear more about some of the paragon and epic tier feats that do not have racial or class prerequisites.


----------



## malcolm_n

jgsugden said:


> I would be curious to hear more about some of the paragon and epic tier feats that do not have racial or class prerequisites.



I second that emotion.  Any cool hints you can provide?  Thank you much.


----------



## Allaric

*Half-Orc Languages*

Do half-orcs speak the Giant tounge by default?

Thanks.
-Allaric.


----------



## Kez Darksun

Allaric said:


> Do half-orcs speak the Giant tounge by default?
> 
> Thanks.
> -Allaric.




According to the RPG.net thread started by someone in Japan who has the book, yes they do have Common & Giant by default.


----------



## Dionysos

Thanks so much for posting this information.

I will now ask a question of my own.

Could you please post one of the Invoker 29 Dailies? Perhaps the one that is, in your opinion, the most powerful?

I am curious if their high-end dailies are as brutual as the Wizard ones...


----------



## Dice4Hire

jgsugden said:


> I would be curious to hear more about some of the paragon and epic tier feats that do not have racial or class prerequisites.




I did a few paragon before, so how about a few epic. 

There is a 19-20 critical feat for bows, though it does say ... "When you make a ranged attack..." I wonder what others there are......

Epic fortitude, reflex and will, that may stack with the paragon ones. It does nto say 'feat bonus'

Robust Defense, +2 to Fort, Ref and Will, like the paragon +1, it says feat bonus.

There are a couple that give +2 to a save and +2 to a kind of saves, like death saves. 

Not a whole lot that is non race or class specific, really.


----------



## Dice4Hire

Allaric said:


> Do half-orcs speak the Giant tounge by default?
> 
> Thanks.
> -Allaric.




Yes. They speak common and Giant. No choice of others.


----------



## Dice4Hire

Dionysos said:


> Thanks so much for posting this information.
> 
> I will now ask a question of my own.
> 
> Could you please post one of the Invoker 29 Dailies? Perhaps the one that is, in your opinion, the most powerful?
> 
> I am curious if their high-end dailies are as brutual as the Wizard ones...





The one that seems the coolest is 

invoke the Absolute Dark
Area burst 2 within 20
Wisdom vs Fort

Hit 6d6+wis  Miss for half

Effect create zone of darkness that slows, deals 10 damage and slides one square to the center if they start their turn in the area. You can dismiss the zone

If you sustain, it grows one square to a maximum burst 5

Looks really nasty as if the target does not have teleportation, or cannot be pushed or slid out of the are, it might well be inescapable, especially after it has been sustained a round or two.


----------



## Dionysos

Thanks so much for posting that. I really appreciate it.

That looks pretty weaksauce compared to Legion's Hold or whatever the ice one is called. If the target double moves or runs (or both) it can easily get out. It will have to waste a turn to do so, and it can be pushed back in, and everything, so it looks like a great power. But compared to the Wizard ones, it's nothing.

This is not a problem for me, though. I actually think many of the Epic-level Wizard dailies are WAY over the top.


----------



## Dice4Hire

fissionessence said:


> About the druid's animal-themed feats . . . do any of them encourage you to take on specific animal shapes, in order to distinguish a wolf _wild shape_ from a panther _wild shape_? I know there are utility powers like _skittering sneak_, but I'm just talking about _wild shape_ enhancements.
> 
> The reason I ask is that after the initial druid preview in December, I pitched a Class Acts article that never got a response, but I'm writing it anyway for a Silent7Seven Games release. It's basically a series of feats that only work when you're manifesting the correct animal/beast shape, so I want to make sure it doesn't have much overlap with existing feats.




The druid class seems to be going out of its way to say the specific shape you choose does not matter at all, as there is nothing about gaining abilities of the shapes. So I suppose you could change into an eagle, and look silly flapping around on the ground doing as much damage as a bear shape. Some flavor text and power names suggest or outright state a form, but there is no requirement in the power to be that form. You can use wolverine XXX even if you are a giant ant. 

As far as I can se for feats, it is the same there

About 1/2 of the powers (and 3/4 of the at-wills) require you to be in beast shape to use the attack. The more controller type spells are not usable in beast shape, but switching back and forth is not too hard, you can do it once a round as a minor action. You can sustain powers in your beast form though you cannot make new ones, and the druids have some very nice zones.

Yes, like the skittering above, there are a couple power s that specify forms, but the vast majority do not.


----------



## fissionessence

Dice4Hire said:


> The druid class seems to be going out of its way to say the specific shape you choose does not matter at all, as there is nothing about gaining abilities of the shapes. So I suppose you could change into an eagle, and look silly flapping around on the ground doing as much damage as a bear shape. Some flavor text and power names suggest or outright state a form, but there is no requirement in the power to be that form. You can use wolverine XXX even if you are a giant ant.
> 
> As far as I can se for feats, it is the same there
> 
> About 1/2 of the powers (and 3/4 of the at-wills) require you to be in beast shape to use the attack. The more controller type spells are not usable in beast shape, but switching back and forth is not too hard, you can do it once a round as a minor action. You can sustain powers in your beast form though you cannot make new ones, and the druids have some very nice zones.
> 
> Yes, like the skittering above, there are a couple power s that specify forms, but the vast majority do not.




Thanks a lot for this answer! I can appreciate why they designed this way, and I'm sure plenty of people agree with Inyssius's opinion as stated in his post above. But hopefully more people than just me will enjoy feats that let them more fully embody the shapes they take (you can always 'reskin' the feat to require a different beast form; mechanically the point is that you can't take advantage of more than one feat at a time).

~ fissionessence


----------



## Brown Jenkin

Awhile back in another thread someone asked whether the PHBII was needed if you have a DDI subscription. Scott replied that there were non-character generation rules in the PHBII that you would need to buy the book for. My question is, are there such rules, and if so what topics/issues do they cover?


----------



## Dice4Hire

Dionysos said:


> Thanks so much for posting that. I really appreciate it.
> 
> That looks pretty weaksauce compared to Legion's Hold or whatever the ice one is called. If the target double moves or runs (or both) it can easily get out. It will have to waste a turn to do so, and it can be pushed back in, and everything, so it looks like a great power. But compared to the Wizard ones, it's nothing.
> 
> This is not a problem for me, though. I actually think many of the Epic-level Wizard dailies are WAY over the top.




I missed the slowed condition when you start your turn inteh zone. Apologies


----------



## Dice4Hire

Brown Jenkin said:


> Awhile back in another thread someone asked whether the PHBII was needed if you have a DDI subscription. Scott replied that there were non-character generation rules in the PHBII that you would need to buy the book for. My question is, are there such rules, and if so what topics/issues do they cover?




Well, there is he background elements section that may not be in the DDI (I do not subscribe, so I don't know what kind of stuff goes in the compendium)

I see nothing about non-character generation, like making NPCS and the like (I did not see Scott's post, though, just what was said above)

I would strongly recommend buying the book, though. It is well done, and it looks very nice with the other books on the shelf. 

The whole concept of subscribe and do not buy books as always seemed odd to me, anyway.


----------



## Rechan

So, now that you can look at the entirety of the Invoker class, can you figure out what his 'shtick' is? 

Does he _feel_ like he can do different stuff, or does he just seem like a wizard that does radiant damage?


----------



## chando

Dice4Hire said:


> You can use wolverine XXX even if you are a giant ant.




While you certainly CAN, I don't think people will WANT to use to wolverine adult material, whether you are in a giant ant form or not. This kind of stuff just don't mess well with D&D AFAIK.

Then again, i might be wrong. But if you like this I certainly don't want to be at your game table.



(sorry for the off, could not resist)

------------------------------


God, all these feats that just add a boring bonus are starting to piss me off a little. Really? paragon Defense? And a upgrade that combines all 3 paragon defense boosters. And another feats that gives more untyped bonus to defenses. Plus the fix with an a$$ expertise feats. If we continue this way, by PHB3 we will have over half of ours characters feats auto-pick by wizards due to balance issues and such, and will be able to customize a character only after lvl 16 (that is, before you retrain all your these feats in epic)
These things make me sad =/


----------



## Dice4Hire

chando said:


> God, all these feats that just add a boring bonus are starting to piss me off a little. Really? paragon Defense? And a upgrade that combines all 3 paragon defense boosters. And another feats that gives more untyped bonus to defenses. Plus the fix with an a$$ expertise feats. If we continue this way, by PHB3 we will have over half of ours characters feats auto-pick by wizards due to balance issues and such, and will be able to customize a character only after lvl 16 (that is, before you retrain all your these feats in epic)
> These things make me sad =/




What Wizards did with Martial Power and this book was make the vast majority (like 90:10) of the feats class or race specific (or both) And the ones that are not tend to be very vanilla. And most of the ones that do increase a class or race tend to do it in a small way, but some are very nice, adding immensely to the power of the ability, like the gnome one that let them fade away an ally instead of themselves once per encounter. That is nice versatility. 

On one hand, only allowing certain classes and races to take particular feats is good, as it means not everyone is doing that trick and it increases the power of the initiate multi-class feats (which I tend to love), but on the other hand, it does make for a thin selection of feats to take.


----------



## Dice4Hire

Rechan said:


> So, now that you can look at the entirety of the Invoker class, can you figure out what his 'shtick' is?
> 
> Does he _feel_ like he can do different stuff, or does he just seem like a wizard that does radiant damage?




Well, if you are an Invoker, you are going to be paying a lot of attention to your allies. For a wizard, you basically jsut try notto include them in your blasts.... hehe. 

But with the invoker, a lot of powers can aid your allies while hurting opponents, or give a bigger punch if your allies are in the blast area, especially if they are bloodied or under some condition. 

They also really like area burst 1 spells, though there are a lot of ranged and close burst powers also. 

The angels they can summon and control(by using their own actions) are pretty cool too.  

Finally they really hit will, a save wizards cannot really touch. 

They look very interesting, and have a lot of hard choices about which power to take. I see them being very popular.


----------



## Nymrohd

Btw the guy who posted photos of the heroic tier feats also added the paragon on his photostream: Flickr: niceguyjools' Photostream
Our thanks to him again for all the info!


----------



## StarFyre

*druids*

Do druids have any healing/weather/nature magic, or just shape changing?

Sanjay


----------



## vagabundo

My copy is on it's way already!! Waiting paTIENTLY. kinda...


----------



## Brown Jenkin

Dice4Hire said:


> I see nothing about non-character generation, like making NPCS and the like (I did not see Scott's post, though, just what was said above)




Sorry, not NPC generation, but rules that have nothing to do with character or NPC generation at all. Things like new combat rules, magic item creation rules, etc.


----------



## davethegame

Brown Jenkin said:


> Sorry, not NPC generation, but rules that have nothing to do with character or NPC generation at all. Things like new combat rules, magic item creation rules, etc.




Not really, no. I assume he was talking about the Background rules, which almost certainly won't be in the Compendium, and may not be supported in the Character Builder (since they don't quite work the same as the FR backgrounds). I could be wrong about that.


----------



## MrAlgothi

Wow, some of those general feats are great.  Vexing Flanker, flanking an enemy makes that enemy grant combat advantage to your allies and Two Weapon Opening, which lets you make an free action offhand attack if you crit with your main hand weapon are both perfect fits for my rogue.  My Warlock and Wizard will both love me for Vexing Flanker (saves them a feat from Distant Advantage in the very least) and being a Two Weapon Fighting  Daggermaster means I can count on an extra attack every 1:6.66 attacks...  Fun times.


----------



## Pickles JG

Dice4Hire said:


> There is a 19-20 critical feat for bows, though it does say ... "When you make a ranged attack..." I wonder what others there are......




Close & Area (& melee though those are pretty rare....)


----------



## jgsugden

Dice4Hire said:


> What Wizards did with Martial Power and this book was make the vast majority (like 90:10) of the feats class or race specific (or both) And the ones that are not tend to be very vanilla. And most of the ones that do increase a class or race tend to do it in a small way, but some are very nice, adding immensely to the power of the ability, like the gnome one that let them fade away an ally instead of themselves once per encounter. That is nice versatility.
> 
> On one hand, only allowing certain classes and races to take particular feats is good, as it means not everyone is doing that trick and it increases the power of the initiate multi-class feats (which I tend to love), but on the other hand, it does make for a thin selection of feats to take.



What we're ending up with is a very thin selection of feat options, and many characters being differentiated only by the magic items that they possess.


----------



## YoMaster

I would really appreciate posting a couple of the Lvl. 1 - 3 Powers of the Charisma build for the Barbarian (particularly the At-Will), as i was asked for a Thraneborn Barbarian for the one-shot i'm running this Friday.


----------



## Jack99

jgsugden said:


> What we're ending up with is a very thin selection of feat options, and many characters being differentiated only by the magic items that they possess.




Do all characters chose the same powers?



YoMaster said:


> I would really appreciate posting a couple of the Lvl. 1 - 3 Powers of the Charisma build for the Barbarian (particularly the At-Will), as i was asked for a Thraneborn Barbarian for the one-shot i'm running this Friday.




Pretty sure that's a no no, so do not get your hopes up.


----------



## YoMaster

Jack99 said:


> Pretty sure that's a no no, so do not get your hopes up.




 Oh well,


----------



## hemera

My apologies for not reading the complete thread as I'm stuck in the office, but are there more charisma based powers in this book? I'm playing a paladin at the moment, and I'm always on the look out for ways to branch out and take advantage of a high charisma. 

Thanks in advance!


----------



## RefinedBean

hemera said:


> My apologies for not reading the complete thread as I'm stuck in the office, but are there more charisma based powers in this book? I'm playing a paladin at the moment, and I'm always on the look out for ways to branch out and take advantage of a high charisma.
> 
> Thanks in advance!




Bards and Sorcerer both use Cha.

Still no love for Con.


----------



## jgsugden

Jack99 said:


> Do all characters chose the same powers?



Not exactly the same, but there does tend to be a small number of 'core builds' for each class, and the characters built within these core builds tend to have few enough options that the power and feat choices seem obvious... and thus characters of the same core concept tend to be so similar as to be interchangeable.

4E limited options. Fewer feats. Less diversity in stats. Less importance placed on items (one of the most diverse aspects of the game). All of these things reduce diversity and encourage conformity - which narrows the playing field that they needed to balance.

Balance is much better, but I find that the tightly controlled 'roll' playing of 4E tends to discourage the 'role' playing I'm used to see in prior editions of the game.


----------



## Dice4Hire

YoMaster said:


> Oh well,




Well, a couple things.

First, no at-wills get any bonus form TT or charisma. All are straight str vs AC, with no special add-ons that charisma helps. 

Encounters: Vault the Fallen: You can target one or two creatures, if you target two, TT allows you to shift your charisma in spaces between the two attacks (normally it is 1)

Level 3: Shatterbone strike: Instead of a -2 to AC for one turn, you get it equal to your charisma if you take TT.

Daring Charge: A very nice power, really turning risk into reward, allows a nice bonus to AC with TT.

Dailies: The rage dailies have no added benefit from TT or Charisma.

Compared to some classes, the added benefits of the TT or RV seems about in line, or maybe a bit weaker.


----------



## fissionessence

StarFyre said:


> Do druids have any healing/weather/nature magic, or just shape changing?
> 
> Sanjay




I don't have the PH2, but the Insider 1-3 preview of the druid showed two builds: the shapechanging one and the storm/nature spellcasting one.

~


----------



## chando

I think i was not made myself clear when talking about the feats.
I have no problem, at all, when feats restricted by race or class and was not talking about this in my post. I actually like this ones. (even with their little problems)
I was talking about feats like weapon/implement expertise kind of feats. In the current game, you NEED to take it or will fall behind in your hit chances. Epic Defenses(the one that gives you a boring +2 feat bonus to all non-ac defenses) will probably be assumed by the design with monsters trying to hit that particular number. Epic feats that add untyped bonus to defenses of +3 on top of the Epic Defenses  are also boring has hell with not one bit of flavor.

The thing is, they miscalculated the hit chances when the first PHB came out, and then, instead of changing/updating the system, they print a feat that most characters will have to take(so you just take away one feat of everyone). Some will have to take both Weapon and Implement expertise, and anyone using two types of implements or weapons is also penalized by this.

Again this is not about feats having a simple mechanical benefits in game. Recharge an encounter power  when you spend an AP is a mechanical benefit with a nice flavor, that brings something new to the game instead of making you have big numbers whitout any additions to the FUN.
They said that feats in 4e was not to be must-haves, just nice benefits to custumize your character. It was nice, but now theres these "absolutely every character must have, some need twice" feats and more and more feats that don't custumize anything comming out.
If this proves to be a tendency, then at books like PHB 3 and 4 we will probably have more of these. and all of the sudden, characters generetion give you no more 18 feats slots, but 10 feats to work with, because you need weapon expertise, paragon defenses, some future armor expertise, power especiallity and wharever more they add.
I hope they stop in this one as they can be easely house-ruled to give the character a + to hit at levels 5/15/25, and we can live with only a few boring bonus to defenses if they not become too much must-have. Give me colorful feats, specific feats, racial and class feats. just don't give me "must have or screwed" feats.


Anyway, sorry for the wall of text, if someone wish to continue the discussion maybe we should fork to new thread and focus this one in more spoilers


----------



## Dice4Hire

fissionessence said:


> I don't have the PH2, but the Insider 1-3 preview of the druid showed two builds: the shapechanging one and the storm/nature spellcasting one.
> 
> ~




All druids gets wild shape, and THREE at wills, one of which must be a beast form one, one which is not beast form and the last is a choice. They have a choice of 8 at wills, 3 of which are beast form(only usable in non-human form) and 5 of which are elemental blasting powers

About half of the encounters are beast form, most utilities are not, and dailies tend to be non beast for also. 

So yes, both paths are very viable.


----------



## hemera

RefinedBean said:


> Bards and Sorcerer both use Cha.
> 
> Still no love for Con.



Well, thanks for the information! That sealed the buy for me.  (The pro charisma thing, not the dearth of con thing)


----------



## Rechan

Dice4Hire said:


> About half of the encounters are beast form, most utilities are not



Wait, so there's very few utility shifts (Like, become a bird, become a mouse)?

Jeez, I'm going to hear a lot of "4e is all about combat bla bla bla" from one of my players.


----------



## Kez Darksun

Rechan said:


> Wait, so there's very few utility shifts (Like, become a bird, become a mouse)?
> 
> Jeez, I'm going to hear a lot of "4e is all about combat bla bla bla" from one of my players.




Dont know about a bird form apart from the paragon path revealed today, but the mouse falls under their level 2 utility, skittering sneak.


----------



## Dice4Hire

Rechan said:


> Wait, so there's very few utility shifts (Like, become a bird, become a mouse)?
> 
> Jeez, I'm going to hear a lot of "4e is all about combat bla bla bla" from one of my players.




About one at each level, that require you to have wild shape. They are mostly non-standard forms, and are dailies, so hey are gonna be pretty limited. With those, you are also fighting for attention with some very nice zone powers, hat are a lot more useful. 

I really like the Druid and Invoker's growing zones in PHBII. Burst 2, growing by one square to a max of 5 when you sustain the power.


----------



## Rechan

Dice4Hire said:


> About one at each level, that require you to have wild shape. They are mostly non-standard forms, and are dailies, so hey are gonna be pretty limited.



One per utility level is suitable enough for me. It's at least something, and not just 'wildshape = battle form and that's it'.


----------



## CelticMutt

Nymrohd said:


> Btw the guy who posted photos of the heroic tier feats also added the paragon on his photostream: Flickr: niceguyjools' Photostream
> Our thanks to him again for all the info!



I'm noticing a distinct lack of Druid spellcaster build feats; they're almost all wildshape feats.  Don't know that I like that ...


----------



## Rechan

CelticMutt said:


> I'm noticing a distinct lack of Druid spellcaster build feats; they're almost all wildshape feats.  Don't know that I like that ...



Probably because the caster feats for other casters can be just as usable for the Druid.

Also, likely the Thunder/Lightning "All class" feats are beneficial to the Druid.


----------



## Jack99

jgsugden said:


> Not exactly the same, but there does tend to be a small number of 'core builds' for each class, and the characters built within these core builds tend to have few enough options that the power and feat choices seem obvious... and thus characters of the same core concept tend to be so similar as to be interchangeable.
> 
> 4E limited options. Fewer feats. Less diversity in stats. Less importance placed on items (one of the most diverse aspects of the game). All of these things reduce diversity and encourage conformity - which narrows the playing field that they needed to balance.
> 
> Balance is much better, but I find that the tightly controlled 'roll' playing of 4E tends to discourage the 'role' playing I'm used to see in prior editions of the game.




We obviously have a very different approach to the game. By now, we have been through a lot of characters, and to be honest, they look nor feel nothing the same to us, even when from the same class. /shrug 


Rechan said:


> One per utility level is suitable enough for me. It's at least something, and not just 'wildshape = battle form and that's it'.




For what it is worth, I play a druid and the (even though daily) utility that allows you to switch to a small animal and go scout is awesome. Would I have prefered it to be at-will/encounter? Sure, but with it being a daily, it forces me to think and make choices. I like that.

Cheers


----------



## Rechan

Jack99 said:


> For what it is worth, I play a druid and the (even though daily) utility that allows you to switch to a small animal and go scout is awesome. Would I have prefered it to be at-will/encounter? Sure, but with it being a daily, it forces me to think and make choices. I like that.



Oh, I'm fine with that. It's a complaint from one of my players.


----------



## YoMaster

Dice4Hire said:


> Well, a couple things.
> Compared to some classes, the added benefits of the TT or RV seems about in line, or maybe a bit weaker.




  Thanks. Good stuff.


----------



## Nymrohd

. . . this was posted on the wrong thread, carry on.


----------



## ppaladin123

According to the people over at rpg.net there is a paragon level feat for wild mage sorcerers that allows them to deal damage to adjacent enemies when they hit with a sorcerer at-will spell. Is that damage dealt to enemies adjacent to the target or adjacent to the sorcerer?

On a related note, does it look like the sorcerer is designed to enter melee combat? I know there is a spell-channeling feat that lets you channel your powers through your dagger at melee range. Is there anything else that supports a melee build?


----------



## Roslyn

Dave, can you tell me, in general terms, what the Barbarian's Charisma option is, and what the at-will, encounter, and daily options for them are (Level 1 only will do fine), again, generally?

Thanks!


----------



## Dice4Hire

ppaladin123 said:


> According to the people over at rpg.net there is a paragon level feat for wild mage sorcerers that allows them to deal damage to adjacent enemies when they hit with a sorcerer at-will spell. Is that damage dealt to enemies adjacent to the target or adjacent to the sorcerer?
> 
> On a related note, does it look like the sorcerer is designed to enter melee combat? I know there is a spell-channeling feat that lets you channel your powers through your dagger at melee range. Is there anything else that supports a melee build?




One: It is each enemy adjacent to you takes damage equal to dex mod. I had not noticed hat before, that makes the ability a bit more interesting. Hit the guy over there, and wound he guys over here. Shimmering armor would help a lot.......

Two: Well, the sorcerer secondary abilities on str help a lot with AC. They get str to all arcane spells, and str to AC instead of dex/int unless in heavy armor, plus they get a +2 to ac for the encounter when they are first bloodied. So their AC should be decent. Add in the almost required leather armor prof, or even hide, and the added damage should be as good as the AC. They also have a couple nice encounters (Sudden Scales(utility 6), add +4 (or str+3 if Dragon Magic variant) to all defenses against one attack. That could be +7 or +8 even at low levels. Another is half damage and teleport, but that is also Utility 6 and is better for Wild Mages. 

Sorcerers like being dragonborn hands down. Str + Cha is just too good.


----------



## Rechan

Dice4Hire said:


> Two: Well, the sorcerer secondary abilities on str help a lot with AC.



His question is if sorcerers get anything to do _offensively_ in melee, or if it's all blasts and ranged attacks, etc. If, instead, they have a melee attack of some kind.


----------



## WalterKovacs

ppaladin123 said:


> According to the people over at rpg.net there is a paragon level feat for wild mage sorcerers that allows them to deal damage to adjacent enemies when they hit with a sorcerer at-will spell. Is that damage dealt to enemies adjacent to the target or adjacent to the sorcerer?
> 
> On a related note, does it look like the sorcerer is designed to enter melee combat? I know there is a spell-channeling feat that lets you channel your powers through your dagger at melee range. Is there anything else that supports a melee build?




The Dragon sorceror has a lot of blast powers that would put it into melee range. The dagger feat gives you more melee ability. The wild build has a way to boost your AC (roll evens, and there are certain ways to 'choose' to roll evens through powers and items). A dragon sorceror has strength as a secondary, so may not even need melee training to make basic attacks. Even as a wild mage, you can take melee training, and you don't have to worry about implement + weapon since their implements are weapons. You'll need to invest in armor (leather minimum) and probably want some health boosters.


----------



## Joshua Randall

What kinds of cool stuff can the shaman do with her spirit at high level?


----------



## Plane Sailing

Dionysos said:


> Thanks so much for posting that. I really appreciate it.
> 
> That looks pretty weaksauce compared to Legion's Hold or whatever the ice one is called. If the target double moves or runs (or both) it can easily get out. It will have to waste a turn to do so, and it can be pushed back in, and everything, so it looks like a great power. But compared to the Wizard ones, it's nothing.
> 
> This is not a problem for me, though. I actually think many of the Epic-level Wizard dailies are WAY over the top.




? 

Legions hold is potentially very good, meteor swarm is so poor it isn't even funny.

The benefits of slow depend upon how you run slow. If you run slow as "move = 2 no matter what" then it is a good condition and dangerous in this daily. If you run slow as "move rate = 2 but you can run or double move to increase that" then it is an all-but-useless condition. I'm on the former side of the fence, and if you tried running it that way I think your opinion of it would improve.

Cheers


----------



## chando

The thing is, Slow simple make your move = 2



> Your speed becomes 2. This speed applies to all your
> movement modes, but it does not apply to teleportation
> or to a pull, a push, or a slide. *You can’t increase
> your speed above 2*, and your speed doesn’t increase
> if it was lower than 2. If you’re slowed while moving,
> stop if you have already moved 2 or more squares.



While you can't increase your speed, run does not increase your speed. Is not "you gain a bonus 2 to speed". Its a move your speed(2 if slowed) + 2 squares and grant CA. That is fine to me, as the monster just granted CA to everyone. And he takes a -5 penalty to attacks and provokes OA. But by RAW, you can RUN or double move, or even double run if you want the move 8 squares. you are not increasing your speed. The slow does not prevent you from moving more then 2 in your turn. If you use a power that alows you to shif your wisdom, you shift that. If you use a power that aloes you to move your speed before the attack, you move your speed of 2.

Slow is nice as if the monster can't reach anyone in 2 squares, he have to run, grant CA and probably miss the attack. or double move (double run) and do no standard action this turn, making it close to daze. Its nice, but as an epic level controler power, its just not that nice, especially since we have creatures that teleport as a commun thing by this tier.



> What kinds of cool stuff can the shaman do with her spirit at high level?



seconded!


----------



## Plane Sailing

chando said:


> The thing is, Slow simple make your move = 2




Not the place for a debate here - look up one of the old threads and get it going there if necessary!

Thanks


----------



## WalterKovacs

chando said:


> Slow is nice as if the monster can't reach anyone in 2 squares, he have to run, grant CA and probably miss the attack. or double move (double run) and do no standard action this turn, making it close to daze. Its nice, but as an epic level controler power, its just not that nice, especially since we have creatures that teleport as a commun thing by this tier.




The teleport might be a bit harder since the zone is one of darkness. Now, I don't know the actual text, but the description did say that the zone was dark, so it would block line of sight for some (if it's just normal darkness than darkvision solves that, but it might be more than that, not sure).

EDIT:

Unrelated but there was a power spoiled in the FAQ section on the wizard site: http://wizards.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wizards.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=1695

It's a level 7 Avenger encounter power that helps to keep tabs on an enemy (after you hit, if it moves you can slide it 2 squares as a reaction.) Can be useful in keeping your oath where you want it.


----------



## jgsugden

Jack99 said:


> We obviously have a very different approach to the game. By now, we have been through a lot of characters, and to be honest, they look nor feel nothing the same to us, even when from the same class. /shrug
> -Cheers



I think if you took all of the dwarven weapon and shield fighters out there and made a chart showing how many took each feat & fighter power, you'd see very definite and well defined trends. The same would be true of human charisma paladins, halfling rogues, etc... If your weapon and shield dwarves all look considerably different, I'd say that you're in the minority. 

The majority of the 'differentiation' that I see these days comes as a result of multiclassing feats. If you don't multiclass, there are very few combinations of race / class that don't result in the same vanilla core character concept. In fact, I'd wager that if I asked 20 different random experienced and unbiased D&D players to make a 16th level dwarven weapon and shield fighter using (only) PHB I and Martial Power as resources:

* The stats would be substantially the same for 80% of the characters.
* I could find 6 or more feats (out of 10) that 80% of the characters have.
* At each power choice, the same choice(s) will have been made by at least 2/3 of the players (out of 6 to 9 choices available).

If we did this experiment, I'd wager that most of the differentiation would come from:

1.) Multiclassing (Paladins, Warlocks, Rogues, Rangers), and
2.) People that fail to remember they can retrain heroic feats into paragon feats at levels 11 through 16.

To me, that is too similar. If you wrote a story about a band of dwarven fighters wandering down into a dungeon, I'd want each to have their own trademarks - not be 80% a clone of their fellowship.

That being said, I think we're very close to off topic here - if you'd like to continue this discussion, we should probably make a new thread.


----------



## WalterKovacs

jgsugden said:


> I think if you took all of the dwarven weapon and shield fighters out there ...




Snipping it there.

He said same class. Not same class, same race and same subset of a class (although, arguably, you probably wouldn't see a tempest dwarf ... although a two-handed weapon wielder wouldn't be out of the question with some of the cool superior weapons available to the dwarf).

Also considering that the dwarf does not get a bonus to the STR, and gets a bonus to CON and WIS ... it's not going to have a lot of viable stat arrays to choose from and still be a viable fighter. That is going to further limit the power and feat choices. Also, as a dwarven fighter, it's almost a sure thing that he'll take the dwarven weaponry feat ... so by limiting the dwarf to axes and hammers in almost all cases, you are going to have less variation of feats and less variation of powers, since those choices are going to, in part, be based on weapon choice.

Now if you don't choose a race/class combination that obviously leads to a single build type with limited options, there are going to be other examples that are more versatile. Humans are the easy example, as they can go with just about any sub-build without much worry.

The sword and shield fighter has a number of builds, as it doesn't lock you into a specific weapon choice, and the secondary stat associated with it (Con or Dex, not to mention Wisdom which works for most things in general).


----------



## StormHarbinger

Having had the PH2 for a couple of days now, I have to say that while I'm not sure power creep is a huge problem (although it may be!), I can say that whoever is writing for WotC has really found their groove in terms of flavor and coolness. The PH2 reminds me of Sword and Sorcery's Relics and Rituals sourcebook for 3rd Edition. Everything was just freaking COOL. The options presented in this book make the PH1 classes (canonical though they may be) pale in comparison for coolness in flavor.


----------



## Rechan

StormHarbinger said:


> Having had the PH2 for a couple of days now, I have to say that while I'm not sure power creep is a huge problem (although it may be!), I can say that whoever is writing for WotC has really found their groove in terms of flavor and coolness. The PH2 reminds me of Sword and Sorcery's Relics and Rituals sourcebook for 3rd Edition. Everything was just freaking COOL. The options presented in this book make the PH1 classes (canonical though they may be) pale in comparison for coolness in flavor.



Mearls did say it was his best work yet.


----------



## Glyfair

Rechan said:


> Mearls did say it was his best work yet.



I wonder if he'd say the same thing now.  He just mentioned that he finished working on the PHB III.


----------



## Jack99

Glyfair said:


> I wonder if he'd say the same thing now.  He just mentioned that he finished working on the PHB III.




Well, if it has improved....


----------



## Nikosandros

davethegame said:


> Not really, no. I assume he was talking about the Background rules, which almost certainly won't be in the Compendium, and may not be supported in the Character Builder (since they don't quite work the same as the FR backgrounds). I could be wrong about that.



I certainly hope that he new backgrounds will be in the CB, since I plan on using them in my game and I also use the CB to keep track of all the characters.


----------



## StormHarbinger

Backgrounds as a concept have changed from their original incarnation. Whereas before they were created in whole (i.e. the regional backgrounds from FRPG and the Scales of War backgrounds from Dragon), they're now presented in a more fluff text style, i.e. "I used to be a bandit, therefore I might have a +2 to Stealth". Thus there's no crunch to include in the Compendium or CB. They might need to rebuild the CB background section just to compensate, although making simple adjustments using houserules works fine as well for this sort of background.


----------



## jgsugden

WalterKovacs said:


> Snipping it there.
> 
> He said same class. Not same class, same race and same subset of a class...



He did say same class. However, he was responding to my post in which I discussed core builds for each class that each featured very minimal variability. I really wish the character builder collected data from made characters and transmitted that back to WotC for tracking how characters are being built, which feats/powers are not being used, and what combinations of powers/feats are consistently appearing.

Regardless, this is not the thread for this discussion. There are a lot of threads about the limited variability in 4E (in terms of the limited number of viable builds within each class as well as the reduced differentiation between the classes).


----------



## evilbob

Here's my only question:

Is the copy editing incredibly poor like it has been for all the books released in the last year; i.e. do they still have blatant typos, copy/paste errors, and see page XX for more details?


----------



## Kitsune

StarFyre said:


> Do druids have any healing/weather/nature magic, or just shape changing?
> 
> Sanjay




Or to be a bit more focused, can druids heal at all anymore, or is it pure offense?


----------



## ppaladin123

Are half-elves allowed to take the human or elf paragon paths?


----------



## Superboy

ppaladin123 said:


> Are half-elves allowed to take the human or elf paragon paths?




I don't think Half-Elves can take racial paragon paths at all, and are limited to the Versatile Master feat. Which is awesome by the way.

Flickr Photo Download: PHB2 PF


----------



## RefinedBean

Kitsune said:


> Or to be a bit more focused, can druids heal at all anymore, or is it pure offense?




The previewed druid had a daily power that could heal allies.  Not a crazy amount of healing, but healing nonetheless.


----------



## BlackJaw

*Multiclass Feats*

I'd love to get some more details on the multi-class feats in the PHB2.

For example: Spirit Talker (Shaman)
It was mentioned that it gives a spirit companion, and "some powers."
As a leadership class, I imagine one of those powers is Healing Spirits, but as a daily power instead of 2/encounter.
Does the Spirit Talker feat provide "Call Spirit Companion" as an at-will, encounter, or daily power?  Do you get a spirit boon or the spirit boon associated power? If so are they at-will, encounter, or daily?  Do they get some stripped down variant of any of the above instead of the full Spirit Shaman powers?

EDIT:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/21677604@N00/
Spirit Talker (Shaman Multiclass)
Prerequisite Wisdom 13
You gain the Call Spirit Companion power, but as a standard action.
Gain either Spirit's Fang or Spirit's Shield as an encounter power.
Gain Speak with Spirits as a Daily power.


----------



## Zorono

*Bard*

The preview of the bard listed him with an assortment of melee weapons (including the long sword) as well as the ability to use military ranged weapons.  Did he recieve any powers that use melee and ranged weapons? In the class preview posted at WotC, they only seemed to focus on ranged attacks.  A better question would be are there enough Weapon attacks to do a bard that is not forced to hang back as a caster, two at-wills, one encounter, and daily per level.  Also what sort of benefit does the multi-class bard gain? I would assuming it is a healing ability like all of the leaders and a skill training.  Thanks in advance.


----------



## Majoru Oakheart

Zorono said:


> The preview of the bard listed him with an assortment of melee weapons (including the long sword) as well as the ability to use military ranged weapons.  Did he recieve any powers that use melee and ranged weapons?  A better question would be are there enough Weapon attacks to do a bard that is not forced to hang back as a caster, two at-wills, one encounter, and daily per level.  Also what sort of benefit does the multi-class bard gain? I would assuming it is a healing ability like all of the leaders and a skill training.  Thanks in advance.




Yes, the other 2 at will powers are both melee weapon powers and half of their abilities total are melee attacks.  The multiclass feat gives you their heal once a day and one skill from their list.


----------



## Dice4Hire

Joshua Randall said:


> What kinds of cool stuff can the shaman do with her spirit at high level?




The coolest thing that they can do from level 1 is attack range. The range on summoning a spirit is 20, so with a minor action you can place it anywhere within 20 squares, and then a lot of powers target anything adjacent to your spirit, effectively giving them a range of 20. 


The really rude thing with spirits is

Summon with minor action
Use standard attack
Unsummon as a minor action

This works well when you plant your spirit in the middle of a group of enemies. 


Other times you will want to leave it in play (and risk it being destroyed) for the benefits t grants adacent allies. 

This will be a very tactical power.

BTW, one sweet poet they get at level 22 is being able to bring back multiple dead allies in a burst. I have not seen anything like that before. And all it costs is a healing surge and says nothing about time dead. The flavor text implies they just died, but the actual power says nothing of the like.


----------



## Dice4Hire

Superboy said:


> I don't think Half-Elves can take racial paragon paths at all, and are limited to the Versatile Master feat. Which is awesome by the way.
> 
> Flickr Photo Download: PHB2 PF




The book specifically says half-elves must do the VM.

And yes, it is awesome, if you have 5 feats available to spend. I love multi-classing, but it is hard to fit 5 in there, what with Implement/weapon expertise, armor proficiencies and other must-take feats.


----------



## WalterKovacs

Dice4Hire said:


> The book specifically says half-elves must do the VM.
> 
> And yes, it is awesome, if you have 5 feats available to spend. I love multi-classing, but it is hard to fit 5 in there, what with Implement/weapon expertise, armor proficiencies and other must-take feats.




Even without going full on paragon multiclass, you still get the ability to turn your dilletante power into an at-will.


----------



## chando

WalterKovacs said:


> Even without going full on paragon multiclass, you still get the ability to turn your dilettante power into an at-will.




Witch is the more awesome part of feat. The PMC stuff is nice if you are PMC, but since you normally PMC for the the at-will and you are already gaining one non-class at-will.

I guess you could have an at-will from your class, one from another class from the half-elf, and another from PMC, but I don't see much of the point. 

Edit: Anyone could give an overview of the Warden powers pas lvl3? Are all dailies polymorph with nice effects and a nice but not so strong attack added to be done latter?(hope yes, or at least the majority) Any polymorph feats that indentified as crazygood? How about the specif encounter powers of the two builds? could we get something on then?

thanks in advance


----------



## Dice4Hire

WalterKovacs said:


> Even without going full on paragon multiclass, you still get the ability to turn your dilletante power into an at-will.




That seems like ti would work.


----------



## ppaladin123

Could you post a bit about bard utility powers we haven't seen (or direct me to the page in the post where you already did so)?


----------



## thecasualoblivion

WalterKovacs said:


> Even without going full on paragon multiclass, you still get the ability to turn your dilletante power into an at-will.




Which makes this feat teh sex for all paragon level Half-Elves, multiclassed or no. 

Paladins and Warlords with that Sorcerer blast 3 at-will here we come.


----------



## ppaladin123

thecasualoblivion said:


> Which makes this feat teh sex for all paragon level Half-Elves, multiclassed or no.
> 
> Paladins and Warlords with that Sorcerer blast 3 at-will here we come.




Oh yeah...my half-elf paladin is going to pick up melee training, that sorcerer power you mention (burning spray), versatile mastery and multi-class into bard (primarily for the war chanter paragon path, which seems awesome). And, the Star of Correllon can be used as both a divine and an arcane implement. 

My warlord though...righteous brand...seriously. Inspiring warlords finally get some "to hit" love.


----------



## Superboy

Does the Improved Armor of Faith heroic feat just give a static bonus of +2 or does it scale by tier (+1 heroic, +2 paragon, +3 epic)?


----------



## Dice4Hire

Superboy said:


> Does the Improved Armor of Faith heroic feat just give a static bonus of +2 or does it scale by tier (+1 heroic, +2 paragon, +3 epic)?




It is +1 per tier.


----------



## Dice4Hire

chando said:


> Edit: Anyone could give an overview of the Warden powers pas lvl3? Are all dailies polymorph with nice effects and a nice but not so strong attack added to be done latter?(hope yes, or at least the majority) Any polymorph feats that indentified as crazygood? How about the specif encounter powers of the two builds? could we get something on then?
> 
> thanks in advance




The warden 1, 9, 15,25, 29 dailies are all take this form, get a long-lasting ability (much like a rage, really) and attack once per encounter with a special attack.  

Dailies 5 and 19 are elemental based weapon or close blast 3 attacks. 

The encounters are virtually all weapon with a few blast attacks too. There re a nice variety of attacks here. It looks like a fun class, though its defender abilities are not as good as a fighter. You can mark more enemies and more easily, but you can only punish them if they attack someone else, not if they move away from you.  It is an interesting class, overall.


----------



## Scalemail Ted

Wow, that feat is epic for half elves...

too bad there's nothing of similar scope with humans, I always embraced them more so for their versatility.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

Scalemail Ted said:


> Wow, that feat is epic for half elves...
> 
> too bad there's nothing of similar scope with humans, I always embraced them more so for their versatility.




It seems they switched humans from "versatile" to "focused" A human can be anything he wants, and he will be among the best in his area of expertise, rivaling even those races that traditionally focus on this. 

I like this image of humans, too. Humans as a race are versatile, humans an individual are experts. It explains how they can always compete with all other races - whatever a human is set out to do, he can achieve greatness. 

A Half-Elf is the versatile now - he is between two cultures, between two societies, and mixes them to create something unique.


----------



## Rechan

I think Humans are 'resilient/persistent' and 'adaptive'.


----------



## chando

Dice4Hire said:


> The warden 1, 9, 15,25, 29 dailies are all take this form, get a long-lasting ability (much like a rage, really) and attack once per encounter with a special attack.
> 
> Dailies 5 and 19 are elemental based weapon or close blast 3 attacks.
> 
> The encounters are virtually all weapon with a few blast attacks too. There re a nice variety of attacks here. It looks like a fun class, though its defender abilities are not as good as a fighter. You can mark more enemies and more easily, but you can only punish them if they attack someone else, not if they move away from you.  It is an interesting class, overall.




Thanks a lot! I'm getting great feelings about this class! 

But I have to disagree with you a little bit. They are not as sticky as a fighter, sure(witch is the golden standard of the defenders), but can take a feat that add a slow effect to they OA, and the feats for the build are extremely nice! The wildblood lets you shift your wisdom as a free action when your mark triggers so you can reach anything that managed to get past you. and the earthstrength one at paragon gives you CON temp HP whenever the mark triggers. not has nice as the wildblood, but the point is, they function very similar to the fighter, but have one of the immediate to work at ranged from beginning, and can improve their mark effect by much.

I think the warden will be at least comparable to the fighter in defender abilities, at least if they powers do comparable damage to the fighter ones (not as a swordmage with are good defenders, but have pretty low damage powers at higher levels). Of course, no seeing the actual thing, this might be all crazy talk by me. 

And thanks again for the info!!


----------



## WalterKovacs

chando said:


> Witch is the more awesome part of feat. The PMC stuff is nice if you are PMC, but since you normally PMC for the the at-will and you are already gaining one non-class at-will.
> 
> I guess you could have an at-will from your class, one from another class from the half-elf, and another from PMC, but I don't see much of the point.




The biggest problem would be perhaps the half-elf having a hard time pulling from multiple classes (there is still only one CON based class, and even that one is mostly charisma anyway). Still, a charisma/con bard can take a paladin attack as a dilletante for additional weapon action, and can multi into warlock and/or paladin, etc ... heck, with the half-elf feat you at least get more excuses to multiclass than just the at-will swap (since you can, if nothing else, cherry pick a utility power from any class ... and some classes have daily attacks that are stance based, etc). It would be funny to see an epic tier half-elf bard/paragon muticlass/eternal seeker just to see how many different classes it can juggle ... investing in the combined items like holy avengers, pact blades and the like would be a must (or just going with a wand for bard/wizard/warlock fun, etc).


----------



## Lord Sessadore

Dice4Hire said:


> [The warden] looks like a fun class, though its defender abilities are not as good as a fighter. You can mark more enemies and more easily, but you can only punish them if they attack someone else, not if they move away from you.  It is an interesting class, overall.



I, personally, am getting a little tired of the viewpoint that fighters are the best defenders because they're 'sticky'. There will likely never be another defender in 4e that can punish enemies for moving away, so if that's your measuring stick, fighters will be gods among defenders forever. 

Fighters get to try to keep marked enemies from moving away because their mark does pretty much squat unless the enemy is adjacent to them. If you're fighting an enemy with a high AC or who can teleport frequently, fighters are horrible defenders, while most other defenders are orders of magnitude better, because their marks don't depend on being adjacent and/or hitting with an attack.

Please don't take this as an attack of any sort. This probably isn't the right place for a defender debate anyway. I just needed to vent that somewhere, and this was convenient. If you disagree (speaking to anyone, not just the post I quoted), then lets agree to disagree and leave it at that. 

I do have a question though - what exactly is it that makes wardens less efficient at defending than fighters? Is it purely because they aren't 'sticky', or is it something else? I ask because I don't actually know what wardens get to do with their mark.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

Lord Sessadore said:


> I, personally, am getting a little tired of the viewpoint that fighters are the best defenders because they're 'sticky'. There will likely never be another defender in 4e that can punish enemies for moving away, so if that's your measuring stick, fighters will be gods among defenders forever.
> 
> Fighters get to try to keep marked enemies from moving away because their mark does pretty much squat unless the enemy is adjacent to them. If you're fighting an enemy with a high AC or who can teleport frequently, fighters are horrible defenders, while most other defenders are orders of magnitude better, because their marks don't depend on being adjacent and/or hitting with an attack.
> 
> Please don't take this as an attack of any sort. This probably isn't the right place for a defender debate anyway. I just needed to vent that somewhere, and this was convenient. If you disagree (speaking to anyone, not just the post I quoted), then lets agree to disagree and leave it at that.
> 
> I do have a question though - what exactly is it that makes wardens less efficient at defending than fighters? Is it purely because they aren't 'sticky', or is it something else? I ask because I don't actually know what wardens get to do with their mark.




Well, I tend to agree with you. 

Stickyness is the Fighters shtick, and it helps him Defend. That doesn't mean other Defenders have to be sticky. The goal of a defender is ensuring that in the end, he takes the damage and his allies don't. He tries this by creating incentives to attack him, or outright force enemies to attack him. And sometimes he does it "after the fact" - Lay on Hands of the Paladin is basically undoing the fact that an enemy hit your ally.


----------



## Rechan

I actually think the Wardens look like decent defenders _on paper_, at least.

They are basically melee controllers. They do very little damage, but looking at their powers, it revolves around punishing any monster that's near them. Slowing, creating difficult terrain, one encounter power even prevents enemies from shifting (1) and other effects that hamper an enemy from _getting_ to anyone else. If the enemy gets away, the Warden's marking power lets them drag the bastard back to the warden. He also marks anyone adjacent to him.

The Warden's point, is thus, "I'm the best target because I'm the easiest for you to reach."

Of course, it suffers the same problems as the fighter: if your enemy has teleportation, or the warden can't get adjacent, your defender is declawed.


----------



## Lord Sessadore

Hmm, it seems I may have been premature in saying that fighters are/will be the only sticky defenders, haha.

It sounds like one could even argue that the warden is even stickier than the fighter, since it sounds like you're saying most of their stickiness doesn't depend on hitting, like the fighter.

Very interesting, in any case. I'm very tempted to try out a warden sometime ... if the avenger hadn't already stolen my heart *dreamy look*.


----------



## Cadfan

The warden may be a better defender than a fighter.

Who can be marked:
Fighter: anyone attacked
Warden: anyone adjacent

Enemy is adjacent, and attacks your ally.
Fighter: Basic melee attack.
Warden: Special attack v reflex that causes the enemy to grant combat advantage.

Enemy is adjacent, and uses a move action to leave to attack your ally.
Fighter: Opportunity attack with bonus equal to wisdom that causes the enemy to stop moving.  Enemy may move again with its standard action without penalty, and may use that opportunity to charge.
Warden: Opportunity attack.  If the enemy is within Reach 2, and the warden is wielding a reach weapon or has a certain paragon feat, may also make the special attack versus reflex that grants combat advantage.  If not, and if enemy is within 5, pull the enemy back into melee reach.

Enemy is adjacent and shifts one space away in order to attack ally.
Fighter: Basic melee attack when enemy shifts.
Warden: If wielding a non reach weapon, the warden is screwed.  If wielding a reach weapon, gets his special attack versus reflex that causes the enemy to grant combat advantage.  At paragon tier may take a feat that lets him shift a space before making this attack, giving him the benefits of a reach weapon without a reach weapon, or giving him extra effective reach.

Its a fine line to decide who's best, but there's a lot to recommend the warden.


----------



## chando

I agree with all the lasts posts here. The warden can get a little sticky(not has much has the fighter, but is something) and can function pretty much in similar ways to the fighter.(especially with the feat that add slow on OA) The fighter has a bonus when enemies use the "shift+charge" to get away, but then the *Warden's Grasp *can slide the target either to flanking(or easy future flanking) or back to the warden if close. 

Not has good has getting a attack when it shift, but good enough. In other situations, they are pretty comparable, except when the enemy teleports or something, in witch case the warden can at least use Warden's grasp to do something, while the fighter does nothing vs nonadjacent enemies marked.

Their attacks also tend to create dificult terrain or slow enemies more often also. We have to wait until the Primal Power book so that the warden has more or less the same number of options has the fighter, but I say they can be pretty close defenders in play.

Even if in the end the fighter does menage to be better, the warden seems to turns out to be more dynamic and FUN to play, witch is a major selling point. really, Villains menace or Come Back Strike are nice, but the *Polymorphs *with nice bonuses AND a nice attack on top of it seems better IMHO. comparable to stances in some ways, but more fun most of the time.

All I know is that I'm going to build a shifter warden as soon as I get my copy of  the PHB2. Maybe a dwarf or half-orc.  (as well as a half-orc barbarian I'm planing )


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## ppaladin123

Cadfan said:


> The warden may be a better defender than a fighter.
> 
> Who can be marked:
> Fighter: anyone attacked
> Warden: anyone adjacent
> 
> Enemy is adjacent, and attacks your ally.
> Fighter: Basic melee attack.
> Warden: Special attack v reflex that causes the enemy to grant combat advantage.
> 
> Enemy is adjacent, and uses a move action to leave to attack your ally.
> Fighter: Opportunity attack with bonus equal to wisdom that causes the enemy to stop moving.  Enemy may move again with its standard action without penalty, and may use that opportunity to charge.
> Warden: Opportunity attack.  If the enemy is within Reach 2, and the warden is wielding a reach weapon or has a certain paragon feat, may also make the special attack versus reflex that grants combat advantage.  If not, and if enemy is within 5, pull the enemy back into melee reach.
> 
> Enemy is adjacent and shifts one space away in order to attack ally.
> Fighter: Basic melee attack when enemy shifts.
> Warden: If wielding a non reach weapon, the warden is screwed.  If wielding a reach weapon, gets his special attack versus reflex that causes the enemy to grant combat advantage.  At paragon tier may take a feat that lets him shift a space before making this attack, giving him the benefits of a reach weapon without a reach weapon, or giving him extra effective reach.
> 
> Its a fine line to decide who's best, but there's a lot to recommend the warden.




The warden also has an at-will power that slows the target. If I played one I'd probably use that quite often to up "stickiness."


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## Lord Sessadore

Very interesting; thanks for the breakdown, Cadfan. If I'm not mistaken, the warden's stickiness abilities don't inflict damage though, correct? That is a bit of an important distinction to make between warden and fighter, but I think I agree that (at least on paper), a warden with reach 2 is in most cases 'stickier' than a fighter. That's kind of cool


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## ppaladin123

I also think that the human warden will be the king of saving throws since:

He gets one free at the beginning of his turn (and thus can use it against the stunned, dominated, dazed conditions, etc. if they are save ends) Martial characters have to wait until epic to get that ability with the feat "martial resolve."

At heroic tier he gets a feat that gives him +2 untyped to any other saving throws during his round if he succeeds on that first "free" one.

At paragon tier he gets +1 untyped to that "free" saving throw through a feat.

Now add in the human feats stubborn survivor and human perseverance and you have a base +2 to your free saving throw or +4 if you are out of action points. That is before any item bonuses. 75% chance to shake off a stun before it actually affects you sounds good to me.

Take the dreadnought paragon path...free action: take 10 damage and end any condition a save can end (note can't take free actions if dominated or dazed but can use your free warden save). You'll be nigh unstoppable.


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## Lord Sessadore

That is definitely true. I considered playing a warden simply for the double saves feature, it sounds downright awesome. (Note: my paladin PC is currently embroiled in a fight which he has spent only one round not-blinded, because of a stupid 'save ends' blindness condition ...)


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## CubeKnight

Lord Sessadore said:


> That is definitely true. I considered playing a warden simply for the double saves feature, it sounds downright awesome. (Note: my paladin PC is currently embroiled in a fight which he has spent only one round not-blinded, because of a stupid 'save ends' blindness condition ...)



I hear your pain. My Swordmage got blasted by a White Dragon's Breath Weapon on the first round, and spent 5 rounds weakened and slowed. By the time he saved, there was a single enemy left.


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## Cadfan

Lord Sessadore said:


> Very interesting; thanks for the breakdown, Cadfan. If I'm not mistaken, the warden's stickiness abilities don't inflict damage though, correct? That is a bit of an important distinction to make between warden and fighter, but I think I agree that (at least on paper), a warden with reach 2 is in most cases 'stickier' than a fighter. That's kind of cool



His retaliatory strike when you hit his allies does damage.  Its slightly better than the fighters, because he can use it against non adjacent foes, it targets reflex, and it penalizes the target for a round.


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## Matt James

Double Post


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## Matt James

Wardens do indeed look very tasty to fill the "tank" role. I will be startng one this weekend for some events to see how they play. I am hoping they are as good as I think they will be.


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## Kobold Avenger

Wardens are more for control, Fighters are more for pure damage.  So far no other defender hits harder than a fighter can.

For a Warden it'll be neat trying out a Hobgoblin Warden as I feel that Hobgoblin Resilience goes well with the Warden's extra save.


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## Dice4Hire

Cadfan said:


> His retaliatory strike when you hit his allies does damage.  Its slightly better than the fighters, because he can use it against non adjacent foes, it targets reflex, and it penalizes the target for a round.




It is weapon range, so it could go out to 2. It targets fortitude, though, not reflex.


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## AkaKageWarrior

just got an email from amazon.de that my PHB2 will not arrive until 27th. 

so maybe someone could help me out with some info on the avenger.
I've seen the photos, but still I'd like to know how:

EDIT: okay, found the photo with the half-orc avengers telling me how the oath
and some low level powers work.

so how are the higher level powers damage wise? for a striker?


thanks!

AKW


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## Miyaa

Five points I'd like to make about Player's Handbook 2.


The Rituals seems a wee bit weak this time around. (And that's what _Arcane Powers_ are for, more and better Rituals?)
Is it just me, or after three books, the weapons seem like something you could assemble and reassemble like a bunch of legoes with the magical abilities attachments? I kind of like it, but then again, I think I've seen this before in Diablo, and Dungeon Siege.
Maybe it's just me, but the Bard still seems slightly weaker versus the other classes. But definitely not the "Bravely Sir Robin" bard of versions before.
So, the Devas are more like Trills from _Deep Space Nine_? Did I get that right about their reincarnation abilities? (And how did they not get Druid as a favored class?)
The female gnome on page 10 is totally hot. The female Deva on page 8, not so hot. Plus, she who dressed her up, Hannibal Lector?


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## CrimsonNeko

Got the book from drive thru rpg.  Wow, I am a bit blown away.  Only read the first three pages and last 4 pages of the thread, but something I didn't see that made me squee a bit was seeing the return of Wild Mage!  Way better then the 3rd ed Wild Mage, complete with elements that are a reference to the 2nd ed version (like special effects happening based on what number is on the dice).  I am a little worried that the power is creeping upwards, but it seems to not be too bad.  Honestly, I'll probably write up a bard of some sort or a wild sorcerer.  Both classes just really blew me away.  Though I was really impressed by the Druid and Shaman write ups as well.


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## Dice4Hire

AkaKageWarrior said:


> just got an email from amazon.de that my PHB2 will not arrive until 27th.
> 
> so maybe someone could help me out with some info on the avenger.
> I've seen the photos, but still I'd like to know how:
> 
> EDIT: okay, found the photo with the half-orc avengers telling me how the oath
> and some low level powers work.
> 
> so how are the higher level powers damage wise? for a striker?
> AKW




Avengers do two things well. Hit, (by rolling twice a good deal of the time) and chasing down an opponent who tries to flee. Their damage is not spectacular, but on the plus side, they do not override marks or curses or anything else, so they can still cooperate well. 

4e, just like 3.5, it is nearly impossible to catch an enemy that flat out runs away. Avengers are the only class that really has any chance of doing so. 


But massive damage is not their thing, not missing much is.


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## Dice4Hire

Miyaa said:


> Five points I'd like to make about Player's Handbook 2.
> 
> 
> The Rituals seems a wee bit weak this time around. (And that's what _Arcane Powers_ are for, more and better Rituals?)
> Is it just me, or after three books, the weapons seem like something you could assemble and reassemble like a bunch of legoes with the magical abilities attachments? I kind of like it, but then again, I think I've seen this before in Diablo, and Dungeon Siege.
> Maybe it's just me, but the Bard still seems slightly weaker versus the other classes. But definitely not the "Bravely Sir Robin" bard of versions before.
> So, the Devas are more like Trills from _Deep Space Nine_? Did I get that right about their reincarnation abilities? (And how did they not get Druid as a favored class?)
> The female gnome on page 10 is totally hot. The female Deva on page 8, not so hot. Plus, she who dressed her up, Hannibal Lector?




1. Yes, but I think rituals will be Arcane and Divine power. If there are not lots of rituals there, I will be upset. There are some good rituals here, but a lot of minor. The plus is that most rituals are do or don't. The roll does not matter, so anyone can use them more easily. 

2. Yes, weapons, like in 3E are virtually interchangeable. At least 4E has a lot of feat that apply only to one type of weapon. 

3. I try to like the bard, but it is hard. They are masters of rituals, which hurts as rituals are still weak, and their multiclassing could be very impressive. Dragging in stuff form multiple classes could be game-breaking. Without multiclassing, I find them rather weak. 

4. I wonder how many things Devas will be compared to.....

5. Some people buy playboy, some people buy gaming books.......


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## AkaKageWarrior

Dice4Hire said:


> Avengers do two things well. Hit, (by rolling twice a good deal of the time) and chasing down an opponent who tries to flee. Their damage is not spectacular, but on the plus side, they do not override marks or curses or anything else, so they can still cooperate well.
> 
> 4e, just like 3.5, it is nearly impossible to catch an enemy that flat out runs away. Avengers are the only class that really has any chance of doing so.
> 
> 
> But massive damage is not their thing, not missing much is.




thanks!


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## Plane Sailing

Miyaa said:


> The Rituals seems a wee bit weak this time around. (And that's what _Arcane Powers_ are for, more and better Rituals?)




The list of arcane Power rituals has been posted on wizards.com. I think they stuffed in about 18. A few looked as if they might be interesting, but come on! rituals offer so *much*, but there are so few around. 

Maybe they are waiting to do a 'big book of rituals' (Book of Infinite Spells?)


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## Luinnar

How do Sorcerers look damage wise? Do they look like they out damage the wizard overall?


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## Rechan

I _do_ like the various armors that give added effects for being in beast form.

I'm rather disappointed that there are only three songblades. Don't offer a lot of variety. Also don't care for the "If you're bloodied, you get a boost to X til the end of your next turn" armors, but then, I just find fiddly bits annoying.


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## Rechan

A list of the rituals in Arcane Power, and a write-up of three, are here.

The compendium says we have 163 rituals/alchemy recipes in total, from all sources (and this is not counting PHB2).


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## Asmor

Luinnar said:


> How do Sorcerers look damage wise? Do they look like they out damage the wizard overall?




Given that sorcerers are strikers and wizards are controllers, I'd hope so!


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## Dice4Hire

Luinnar said:


> How do Sorcerers look damage wise? Do they look like they out damage the wizard overall?




Yes. They get all the bonuses to damage that wizards do, and Dragon Magic gets a bonus to damage equal to STR, or STr +2 or ST+4 at higher tiers. Wildmages get the same, but with dex. 

The flat bonus to all .... ARCANE ... powers is nice. If you multi into bard, wizard, or warlock, you get a bonus to those powers too.  

It is nice not to have to roll extra dice as a striker.


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## CubeKnight

Rechan said:


> I _do_ like the various armors that give added effects for being in beast form.
> 
> I'm rather disappointed that there are only three songblades. Don't offer a lot of variety. Also don't care for the "If you're bloodied, you get a boost to X til the end of your next turn" armors, but then, I just find fiddly bits annoying.



...there are armors with additional bonuses for Beast form? *drools*
I've always liked them. Even if there were only, like, 2 in all of 3.x


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## malcolm_n

15 pages and i found nothing solid on shifters.  Do they get anything besides what's in the MM?


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## Fallen Seraph

malcolm_n said:


> 15 pages and i found nothing solid on shifters.  Do they get anything besides what's in the MM?



They have:
-Their section in the PHB with Longtooth and Razorclaw
-The Racial Paragon Path: Moonstalker
-3 Unique Racial Backgrounds: Moonspeaker, City Shifter and Persecution
-6 Feats


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## Jack99

Dice4Hire said:


> 4e, just like 3.5, it is nearly impossible to catch an enemy that flat out runs away. Avengers are the only class that really has any chance of doing so.




Yeah, unless you happen to be a class that has a ranged attack that slows, stuns, dazes, immobilizes etc etc.


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## Nymrohd

Jack99 said:


> Yeah, unless you happen to be a class that has a ranged attack that slows, stuns, dazes, immobilizes etc etc.




Or simply guard the exits.


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## Dice4Hire

Jack99 and Nymrohd, be sure to let me know how those work in actual play, because in my experience, they do not.


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## Asmor

Dice4Hire said:


> Jack99 and Nymrohd, be sure to let me know how those work in actual play, because in my experience, they do not.




I don't know what's going on in your games, but I find it incredibly difficult for enemies to escape in combat. It basically only works if the enemies can slow down the PC(s) chasing them, and even then it's a crap shoot.

And my group doesn't even have much in the way of status effects to slow people.


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