# Doctor Who SE04 EP13 Journey's End - SPOILERS



## Brakkart (Jul 5, 2008)

Well that was entertaining at least. Some very cool bits (I loved the TARDIS towing Earth back into place!), and some very annoying bits (the Daleks got annihilated... AGAIN!). All in all a pretty good episode though I thought.

I liked the explanation for why the TARDIS is a bit erratic (and why the control panel is hexagonal) in that its meant to have 6 pilots. I liked that Mickey stayed on Earth1 at the end and got on with his life. I'm going to miss Donna Noble, she was a lot of fun in this and grew on me over the series. I liked the conversations between The Doctor and Davros. The goodbyes were well done, especially Donna and Mickeys ones.

I could have done without all the technobabble! The Supreme Dalek was a bit too easily destroyed, I'd have thought he'd be tougher than his underlings. I hate that again the Daleks got wiped out with seemingly no survivors. I'd have liked subtitles for when the german woman was speaking to Martha.


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## Mark Hope (Jul 5, 2008)

German daleks!  It doesn't get any cooler than that


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## delericho (Jul 5, 2008)

Brakkart said:


> I liked that Mickey stayed on Earth1 at the end and got on with his life.




That opens an interesting possibility: it looks like Martha is off to Torchwood now, but I think it would also be good if Mickey moved there, too. He's no longer the comedy 'robot dog' he was two years ago, and the by-play with Jack was really good. Do that, and perhaps we can have a lighter Jack going forward, which would be to the benefit of Torchwood, I think.



> I'm going to miss Donna Noble, she was a lot of fun in this and grew on me over the series.




A few months ago, I never would have thought I'd be sad to see her leave. Brilliant work there.


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## Brakkart (Jul 5, 2008)

Mark Hope said:


> German daleks!  It doesn't get any cooler than that




Yeah that got a big laugh from myself and my 2 housemates!


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## Brakkart (Jul 5, 2008)

delericho said:


> That opens an interesting possibility: it looks like Martha is off to Torchwood now, but I think it would also be good if Mickey moved there, too. He's no longer the comedy 'robot dog' he was two years ago, and the by-play with Jack was really good. Do that, and perhaps we can have a lighter Jack going forward, which would be to the benefit of Torchwood, I think.




Yeah and with Torchwood down two members as of the end of season 2, they would fit right in. As they are now, they would both be assets to the Torchwood team.


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## Mark Hope (Jul 5, 2008)

Brakkart said:


> Yeah and with Torchwood down two members as of the end of season 2, they would fit right in. As they are now, they would both be assets to the Torchwood team.



They'd fit in quite well.  Martha has already filled in for Owen as medical officer, and while Mickey doesn't have Tosh's level of computer skills, we have seen him do a fair bit of computer hackery here and there in the past.


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## delericho (Jul 5, 2008)

Mark Hope said:


> German daleks!  It doesn't get any cooler than that




That was awesome.

I kinda wished they'd subtitled the German conversation between Martha and her contact, though. I got most of what was being said through context (and the roughly six words of German I know), but would have preferred to have got the rest.


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## Mark Hope (Jul 5, 2008)

delericho said:


> That was awesome.
> 
> I kinda wished they'd subtitled the German conversation between Martha and her contact, though. I got most of what was being said through context (and the roughly six words of German I know), but would have preferred to have got the rest.




We happened to have the BBC subtitles turned on for that scene, and here (more or less) is what she said:

"_Venn ist das nurnstuck git und slotermeyer? Ya! Beigerhund das oder die flipperwaldt gersput!"_


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## Brakkart (Jul 5, 2008)

Fact file on the episode from the BBC official website has all these fun facts, including a translation of the german conversation:



> *Davros*
> 
> Julian Bleach, who plays Davros, appeared in an RSC production of The Tempest opposite Patrick Stewart... who was one of several actors mistakenly rumoured to be playing the evil genius. Sir Ben Kingsley was another name incorrectly attached to the role. Julian previously appeared in the Torchwood episode Out Of The Rain, as the Ghost Maker.
> 
> ...


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## LoneWolf23 (Jul 5, 2008)

> (the Daleks got annihilated... AGAIN!)




...Oh, like *that*'ll stick...  How many times have we seen "The Last of the Daleks" before?  They'll be back next season, somehow.


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## Pinotage (Jul 5, 2008)

LoneWolf23 said:


> ...Oh, like *that*'ll stick...  How many times have we seen "The Last of the Daleks" before?  They'll be back next season, somehow.




Assuming they all have emergency temproral shifts, there's no reason some of them couldn't have escaped.

Pinotage


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## Morrus (Jul 5, 2008)

delericho said:


> That opens an interesting possibility: it looks like Martha is off to Torchwood now, but I think it would also be good if Mickey moved there, too. He's no longer the comedy 'robot dog' he was two years ago, and the by-play with Jack was really good. Do that, and perhaps we can have a lighter Jack going forward, which would be to the benefit of Torchwood, I think.




You're in luck.  He and Martha are in next years' Torchwood cast.


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## Pseudonym (Jul 5, 2008)

Mark Hope said:


> "_Venn ist das nurnstuck git und slotermeyer? Ya! Beigerhund das oder die flipperwaldt gersput!"_




So that's what the Osterhagen Key was.


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## Plane Sailing (Jul 5, 2008)

I like the way that daleks have been brought back in earlier series, but each time they were running out of additional options. 

I remember at the end of series 1 the Doctor was going to wipe out the daleks, but couldn't bring himself to (and Rose stepped up to the plate). I wonder if the 2nd Doctor in this episode found it so morally easy to destroy the daleks because he was part human?

Overall I enjoyed it, but it seemed to suffer from a common problem in the finale scripts. I mean, just like last year the doctors friends get a plan (or two plans) together, but are foiled by the bad guys.

Also, like in season 1 finale (saved by doctors assistant), season 3 finale (saved by doctors assistant) we have season 4 finale (saved... by doctors assistant).

The writer is good on the details and the human interaction, but weak on the main plot ending IMO.

One nice twist though - having set everything up as if Donna was going to die, it turns out that the reason all those people (Rose, River) were sorry for her was because they knew that she was going to have all memory, all experience of the doctor, wiped from her. The ending was tragic enough to have my dear wife sobbing.

n.b. a slight noise halfway through alerted us to the fact that my young daughters had crept downstairs and were watching through the door. "This is great!" they said when captured. "Not scary at all! I loved it when the girl went into the lava!". They were sent to bed, but I was secretly quite proud of them


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## Morrus (Jul 5, 2008)

Hmmm.... it was fun.

Yet another episode where the Doctor was more an observer than anything else.  He didn't do anything to save the day.  I don't know why he always takes the credit and everybody respects him so much!

I loved him towing the Earth home - a demonstration of Time Lord power.  Sometimes he needs to show why he's who he is by doing something like that.

_All _the Daleks dead again.... yeah.

Why did they invade earth?  I can't comprehend their motive for it.  All they had to do was move earth.  what's the point of invading for 10 miutes and then disappearing again?  If they were worried earth might somehow fight back (which I doubt) then could could have just not maintained the atmosphere with that firled thing they technobabbles for why everyone was still alive when the Earth moved. Seems they went to a lot of trouble to protect the humans with the atmospheric shield when they moved the planet, especially so they could fly down, lord it over them for a couple of hours, befoe flying back to the fleet and erasing all of reality.

Cybermen in the Xmas Special!


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## Pseudonym (Jul 5, 2008)

That was pretty cool.. Not quite how I expected it to end, and the bit about not telling Donna anything seemed a bit strained, especially since the whole Rachnos thing is a bit hard to go without mentioning.  Unless Londoners have gotten so completely ambivalent about alien invasions that they no longer warrant conversation.

Still, nice to see ends tied up.

Can't wait for December.


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## Staffan (Jul 6, 2008)

Plane Sailing said:


> I remember at the end of series 1 the Doctor was going to wipe out the daleks, but couldn't bring himself to (and Rose stepped up to the plate). I wonder if the 2nd Doctor in this episode found it so morally easy to destroy the daleks because he was part human?



As I recall (been a while since I saw it), the reason the 9th Doctor didn't wipe out the Daleks in season 1 was that he couldn't do it without also wiping out half of Earth's population.


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## Cthulhudrew (Jul 6, 2008)

LoneWolf23 said:


> ...Oh, like *that*'ll stick...  How many times have we seen "The Last of the Daleks" before?  They'll be back next season, somehow.




More likely Davros himself had a contingency plan in place and survived yet again and can rebuild them "better, stronger, faster."

Wonder if Dalek Caan survived- probably not, but that would be interesting to have him go on and working against the other Daleks and Davros.


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## Cthulhudrew (Jul 6, 2008)

Plane Sailing said:


> I remember at the end of series 1 the Doctor was going to wipe out the daleks, but couldn't bring himself to (and Rose stepped up to the plate). I wonder if the 2nd Doctor in this episode found it so morally easy to destroy the daleks because he was part human?




I think it's like the Doctor said- this one was "born" in a time of war, and had to make some hard decisions. Recall that Nine had eliminated the Daleks during the Time War, and it wasn't until (as Ten said here) Rose had an effect on him that brought him out of that mindset.

So he's always had it in him to do it if the situation was dire enough, it's just that he's had people around him lately to remind him that there's always hope and a better way.


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## Felon (Jul 6, 2008)

Thought it was pretty disappointing on the whole, with lots of cop-outs. Davies went out jerking the fans along, offering lots of ominous foreshadowing about the inevitable direness of upcoming events, then pulling a big "psych". If you're gonna keep telling us a companion's going to die, then kill off a companion already.


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## The Grumpy Celt (Jul 6, 2008)

I hope they don't bring Davros or the Dalek's back soon. Now that they've stolen the Earth and tried to destroy the universe there is not much else they can do.


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## Plane Sailing (Jul 7, 2008)

The Grumpy Celt said:


> I hope they don't bring Davros or the Dalek's back soon. Now that they've stolen the Earth and tried to destroy the universe there is not much else they can do.




I can't help thinking that it is a shame that everything is now wrapped up in 1 or 2 episodes. The old style stories which took 4 episodes to tell (with a cliff hanger at the end of ep 1/2/3) gave a lot more opportunity to develop interesting stories with interesting characters.

I suppose the argument is that it is more difficult to keep people watching, but it never used to be a problem (and Who has a pretty good following nowadays).

Ah well.


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## Wormwood (Jul 7, 2008)

Let's just say it 'got a little dusty' in the Wormwood household after this episode.


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## Felon (Jul 7, 2008)

The Grumpy Celt said:


> I hope they don't bring Davros or the Dalek's back soon. Now that they've stolen the Earth and tried to destroy the universe there is not much else they can do.



I thought Davros was well-executed, but they're certainly a little played out for now.


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## Felon (Jul 7, 2008)

Wormwood said:


> Let's just say it 'got a little dusty' in the Wormwood household after this episode.



I don't get it.


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## Morrus (Jul 7, 2008)

The Grumpy Celt said:


> I hope they don't bring Davros or the Dalek's back soon. Now that they've stolen the Earth and tried to destroy the universe there is not much else they can do.





They can bring back Gallifrey....!


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Jul 7, 2008)

Cthulhudrew said:


> I think it's like the Doctor said- this one was "born" in a time of war, and had to make some hard decisions. Recall that Nine had eliminated the Daleks during the Time War, and it wasn't until (as Ten said here) Rose had an effect on him that brought him out of that mindset.
> 
> So he's always had it in him to do it if the situation was dire enough, it's just that he's had people around him lately to remind him that there's always hope and a better way.




In fact, the first time he meets a Dalek after the war, he is set out to kill it. It's Rose stopping him...


Overall, it was a good episode, even if the Doctor was a bit passive. 

And what did Sally Sparrow say on sadness? I think it applies to the ending.


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## Plane Sailing (Jul 7, 2008)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> And what did Sally Sparrow say on sadness? I think it applies to the ending.




Now she would make a nice companion


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## Plane Sailing (Jul 7, 2008)

Something that I thought was done very well was the two David Tennants on screen at once - in fact it was the best version of this kind of thing that I've ever seen on TV or film; it was just as if they had two different actors in all those scenes at the same time


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Jul 7, 2008)

Plane Sailing said:


> Now she would make a nice companion




Oh yes... she would... 

She would also work great as a regular in the show.

Wait, that's what you were talking about, right?


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## Jarrod (Jul 7, 2008)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> In fact, the first time he meets a Dalek after the war, he is set out to kill it. It's Rose stopping him...




Exactly. Didn't they mention that it was Rose (and then Martha and Donna, presumably) that have been giving the Doctor back his balance? The 9th doctor was willing to kill to solve his problems, but the 10th has been a relative pacifist?


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## Fast Learner (Jul 8, 2008)

I really not one to nitpick, generally, but I was bother by being pretty sure the moon wouldn't just sit there, perfectly in place for bringing the Earth back.

Yeah, I know, very fanboy, since I'm fine with the time travel and all the general pseudo-science. But that moon sure bugged me. 

Very enjoyable two-parter, and a very nice sign-off by Davies.


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## horacethegrey (Jul 8, 2008)

ARGH. Very late again. Chalk it up to not being ablle to log on Enworld from my home computer for some reason. 

But enough of my moaning, here's what I thought of this here season finale. I liked it. Some nice bits in it, but plenty of stuff I didn't care for. Mainly:

- Rose and Doctor number two. Augh. What the hell is this? Fanfic? Couldn't they have resolved Rose's plotline in a another way that wouldn't have fangirls squeeing to the high heavens? I also felt it cheapened in a way her return, after all the buildup they'd done this season. Not cool.

- Too many guest stars. I've no problem with seeing Freema Agyeman, John Barrowman, Elisabeth Sladen and all the other fine actors who've graced the news series. But seeing all of them at once really clutters the story and muddles it's focus.

But now, to the bits I did like:

- Donna. Oh dear, that had to be the saddest exit for a companion that I've seen. I know the Doctor was only trying save her, but still it seemed rather cruel of him to just wipe out all traces of their time together from her mind. Really hope this isn't the last time we see the Temp from Chiswick, she was by far my favorite in the new series.

- Davros. By jove, they actually made him menacing. Just loved how he taunted the Doctor here. While I could never care for him in the old series, I really hope he returns in the new series once more.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Jul 8, 2008)

Fast Learner said:


> I really not one to nitpick, generally, but I was bother by being pretty sure the moon wouldn't just sit there, perfectly in place for bringing the Earth back.



Earth was just gone for a few hours...


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## The Grumpy Celt (Jul 8, 2008)

horacethegrey said:


> - Rose and Doctor number two.
> 
> (snip)
> 
> - Davros. By jove, they actually made him menacing.




I agree on both counts.

Normally I don't mind ending on, what is the English idiom… a good snog. But that was silly and kind of sad, actually. Especially given the pathos of the Doctor’s and Rose’s separation at the end of Doomsday. It did seem like a sop thrown to those fans most incessant about getting the two character’s back together.

Davros’s rant about “the destruction of reality itself” was fun. But the scheme itself is keeping with Davros – right back to the virus speech in Genesis. I wonder what he and the Dalak’s had planned for after the destruction of the universe. Were they just going to sit around and look at each other?


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## Fast Learner (Jul 8, 2008)

The Grumpy Celt said:


> Davros’s rant about “the destruction of reality itself” was fun. But the scheme itself is keeping with Davros – right back to the virus speech in Genesis. I wonder what he and the Dalak’s had planned for after the destruction of the universe. Were they just going to sit around and look at each other?




Yeah, like any conquering peoples, things get awfully dull when there's nothing left to conquer. Until they begin to turn on themselves.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Jul 8, 2008)

The Grumpy Celt said:


> I agree on both counts.
> 
> Normally I don't mind ending on, what is the English idiom… a good snog. But that was silly and kind of sad, actually. Especially given the pathos of the Doctor’s and Rose’s separation at the end of Doomsday. It did seem like a sop thrown to those fans most incessant about getting the two character’s back together.
> 
> Davros’s rant about “the destruction of reality itself” was fun. But the scheme itself is keeping with Davros – right back to the virus speech in Genesis. I wonder what he and the Dalak’s had planned for after the destruction of the universe. Were they just going to sit around and look at each other?




We'll never know. What would we do if we figured out there was nothing else besides us?


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## Richards (Aug 2, 2008)

I got to see this tonight on SciFi.  I thought it was a very cool episode, with some interesting twists.  I liked the Doctor-Donna (and Catherine did a _great _job "channeling" the Tenth Doctor in her performance), but there was no way she could be permitted to stay in that state beyond this episode.  Likewise with the half-human Doctor - it would have diluted the series significantly to have him hanging around the Tenth Doctor in the TARDIS from this point on; much better to send him off with Rose in the parallel dimension.  (And now we need never visit that parallel dimension again.)  Davros was well-played as well, and destroying the rest of the universe seemed like a pretty cool "shortcut" (from his point of view) - he'd already conquered 27 planets/moons, so it's much easier to destroy the rest of the universe than to go to the trouble of having to conquer each remaining planet the hard way, right?

So...Cybermen in the next Christmas special, then, right?  Any hints as to who the next companion is going to be?

Johnathan


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## The Grumpy Celt (Aug 2, 2008)

Richards said:


> Any hints as to who the next companion is going to be?




Eric Noah, 'cause he's just cool.

Next year will be several TV Doctor Who movies and I don't think there will be a real companion. I don't know what happens after that, in 2010.


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## WhatGravitas (Aug 2, 2008)

The Grumpy Celt said:


> Next year will be several TV Doctor Who movies and I don't think there will be a real companion. I don't know what happens after that, in 2010.



Hopefully keeping Tennant as 10th doctor!

Cheers, LT.


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## DonTadow (Aug 2, 2008)

Another great episode, though i was a little WTF, seeing the fake doctor get with rose at the end.  Yeah, it was for the best, but I couldn't see anyone wanting a copy.  I think she'll be back again.


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## Ed_Laprade (Aug 2, 2008)

If it hadn't been Dr. Who I'd be ranting about their not offing Davros at the first possible opportunity. Y'know, the one guy who can make _more _Daleks? But that was expected, so, oh well. Otherwise a great episode. The first time I've really liked Catherine Tate, as well. And nicely wrapping up all the loose ends until the next season, whenever that will be. (2010, presumably.) 

But these people need to watch more movies. Specifically The Good, The Bad and The Ugly. "If you're going to shoot, shoot, don't talk!" 

Oh yeah, and setting off a couple dozen nukes would *not *destroy the planet, no matter how strategically placed they were. Kill everyone one the planet? Probably. Actually destroy it? No way.


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## Morrus (Aug 2, 2008)

Ed_Laprade said:


> Oh yeah, and setting off a couple dozen nukes would *not *destroy the planet, no matter how strategically placed they were. Kill everyone one the planet? Probably. Actually destroy it? No way.




Fictional sc-fi technology.  UNIT have been involved with aliens and The Doctor for over 30 years.  It's no less plausible than the TARDIS towing the Earth home.


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## Jamdin (Aug 2, 2008)

horacethegrey said:


> - Donna. Oh dear, that had to be the saddest exit for a companion that I've seen. I know the Doctor was only trying save her, but still it seemed rather cruel of him to just wipe out all traces of their time together from her mind. Really hope this isn't the last time we see the Temp from Chiswick, she was by far my favorite in the new series.




Donna deserved a better ending than this for her character really grew on me this season. I enjoyed the episode until the moment of her fate was decided on.


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## Angel Tarragon (Aug 3, 2008)

Lord Tirian said:


> Hopefully keeping Tennant as 10th doctor!
> 
> Cheers, LT.



Amen to that. Tennant as The Doctor rocks.

I actually cried when I thought he was going to regenerate a brand new body. I've learned to love him as The Doctor and hope he stays for at least two more seasons.


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## RichCsigs (Aug 3, 2008)

Jamdin said:


> Donna deserved a better ending than this for her character really grew on me this season. I enjoyed the episode until the moment of her fate was decided on.




I couldn't agree more.  Really dropped my overall opinion of the episode because of it.  Better they had just killed her off honestly and given her a heroic leaving.

That said, I think I picked up on how they could bring her back...

[sblock]After the Doctor leaves, they focus on Donna talking on the phone for a bit.  I noticed that the light was reflecting off her ring and I thought it odd that the director left that obvious a goof in and didn't correct it.

And then I thought of a pocket watch...[/sblock]


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## Elodan (Aug 3, 2008)

I really enjoyed the episode.

Likes:
 - Doctor-Donna.  I think both actors did a great job "channeling" each other.  I did realize what what Donna's "death" would be as soon as she got the doctor's mojo.  Pretty touching companion leaving scene.  I loved when granddad said he's watch the stars, watch the Doctor, for Donna.
 - Call backs to earlier series.  Davros recognizing Sarah Jane.  Sarah Jane's reaction in the previous episode when she heard 'exterminate' over the radio was awesome.
 - Davros's speech about the doctor using his companions as his weapons, pretty spot on. 
 - German Daleks.
 - The return of K9 (for 10 whole seconds).

Dislikes
 - The Doctor as bystander.
 - Yet another Empire of Daleks wiped out, again.  The Daleks need to stay dead for a season or two.  There are plenty of other baddies in the Whoniverse.


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## The Grumpy Celt (Aug 3, 2008)

The scene of everyone working together to tow Earth back was also fun.


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## Morrus (Aug 3, 2008)

RichCsigs said:


> I couldn't agree more.  Really dropped my overall opinion of the episode because of it.  Better they had just killed her off honestly and given her a heroic leaving.




Interesting.  I think completely the opposite - I l_oved _the tragedy of it.  It was far more emotional than a death scene would have been.


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## Villano (Aug 3, 2008)

It started great, but completely jumped the rails by the end.  

So, the Daleks are gone...again.  What's this been, the third time they've been proclaimed extinct?  Of course, we didn't actually see Davros die, so I suspect he'll turn up again with _*surprise*_ a whole new generation of them next season.

And Donna's treatment was depressing.  She began as the most irritating companion and ended up being the best.  

Honestly, I could live with all that, but the 2nd Doctor/Rose ending made my stomach turn.  Where did the writers come up with that?  Did they swipe it from some 12 year old girl's fanfic?  

Someone on another message board said that Rose got everything and Donna had everything taken away from her.  

And, if the Doctor had to dump the 2nd Doctor in the alternate universe because he committed genocide, shouldn't he have stayed there himself since he wiped out the Racnoss?  I guess it's morally acceptable to drown spider babies but not kill creatures who just tried to destroy all life in the universe...

And what happened to the space police that appeared in part one?  Was that plot thread just dropped?

Lastly, was I the only one who expected the Doctor-Donna to regenerate into a new companion once she began to "malfunction"?  

That's how I would have ended it.  Instead of having the hand grow into the 2nd Doctor, I would have had the jar burst open and the energy flow into Donna, turning her into the Doctor-Donna.  

After saving the day, everyone else would have had their ending, but Rose would have returned to her universe by herself.  Back in the Tardis, Donna begins to malfunction and collapses to the ground.  The Doctor realizes she is dying, but, to his surprise, she starts to glow.  The episode would end with Donna transformed into a completely different person and the Doctor uttering his famous "What?".

The next season, you would explain that the regeneration was a one-shot deal (leftover Time Lord energy).  Not only would you have a new companion, but you would have a built in subplot about Donna having to explain to her family why she is different (not just in looks, but personality).

But that's just me...


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