# Rystil's Next Game--You Pick!



## Rystil Arden (Dec 10, 2005)

Hey everyone.  So, I've got all my game threads from Twin Infinities started up now, which means that it's time for my next game!  I had a bunch of ideas, but I only want to do one at a time, so if you like any of these ideas, vote for your favourites and post below.  Here's my descriptions:

Homebrew--"Kiss of Darkness":

A game that takes place in my most recent homebrew setting, it is based off a storyline rejected by WotC.  It is a fairly traditional fantasy world using normal rules, and involves a good amount of exploration, mystery, roleplaying, and combat.  I've playtested this one once, and the playtesters had a really great time, expanding the game from its initial scope to a huge campaign that lasted from 1st to 20th level.  The main adventure involves dark cults, conspiracies, and more.

Post-Arthurian Campaign:

This game begins in England in 517 AD, over a decade after the death of Arthur at the Battle of Camlin.  This game is extremely high on roleplaying, character interaction, and investigation, with extensive backstory and characters who hide interesting secrets.  There are also a few segments with ancient ruins, plenty of combat, and even some fun interludes and tournaments to cool off in between adventures.  I have strictly limited magic in this world, and so I use some alternate base classes, prestige classes, and other rules to help convey the Arthurian feel.  The character histories are pregenerated, though customisation of the character in skills, feats, classes, and developing personality is left open for the players--this allows me to tie the characters into the world and the story in many interesting ways, which includes inserting special subplots for each character that can open up special abilities for each character. (For the record, the characters are: Sir Caladorn of Brittany, a noble knight who seeks to emulate Galahad, Tobias Andelar, a mischievous noble who enjoys roguish escapades, Oisin of Ulster, a Fenian berserker warrior as well as a Skald and collecter of great tales, Brother Richard Partholon, an Irish Catholic priest from Connacht, and Naoise Treestrider, a mysterious ranger whose family was murdered while he was away and who bears a deep scar from his fight with a powerful bear).

Eyros:  Eyros is a setting designed by ENWorlders, including me, that will be published some day by Lion's Den (I would mention the name of the game designer who is helping to edit it, but then he would have to check this thread when he searches for his name, so I'll just say he's a rodent vampire .  Eyros is a dominion dominated by six powerful Human and Orc families called Pillars, and the Grand Monarch is always a first-generation half-orc, with one parent from a Human Pillar and the other from an Orc Pillar.  Meanwhile, the grim Praes Thanatos, a corps of Gnomish Necromancers, act as the nation's secret police.  The world of Eyros contains a myriad of other interesting countries as well, including the infamous halfling pirates, who took to the sea to avoid the sovereignty of Eyros.  There are very few standard gods in Eyros.  Instead, there are religions venerating the sacred lizards of the land, the different aspects of Flame, and even Light itself.  There's lots of fun stuff for adventure!

Rystil's Gestalt Neospelljamming:  Don't know what this is?  Check any of my current games (except LEW games).  There's also a lovely Encyclopaedia thread in OOC with an excellent summary file in it by unleashed.  Basically, I made a bunch of new worlds, races, and classes.  It's pretty neat, but I do have a bunch of games using this already.

Planescape:  Everyone likes Planescape--okay not everyone, but I think it's pretty cool.  I thought I'd make this an option, but I don't really have anything specific for it, and I left my 2e Planescape stuff at home.  But I'll be home soon, so throwing this one out there.

Something Else I forgot to put here but mentioned before:  I told some people on the boards about ideas I had, so if I forgot any of those, please vote for this and tell me!

Other (And I'm going to tell you what it is below):  Have a good idea?  Even a wacky one?  Let me know below.  I'll consider any idea that I can run without buying a book I don't have.  I may veto something from Other, though, even if it gets lots of votes.


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## unleashed (Dec 10, 2005)

Well as I told you already I like any and all of them...I just can't choose.


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## Rystil Arden (Dec 10, 2005)

unleashed said:
			
		

> Well as I told you already I like any and all of them...I just can't choose.



 Vote for all the ones you like--that's why it is multiple choice.  If I get it down to two or three from this, I can always do a run-off election


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## Bront (Dec 10, 2005)

Voted 

I'd love to see you do Eberron, particularly since those games seem to have a high mortality rate here in PbP land.


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## Lord Wyrm (Dec 10, 2005)

Homebrew is always fun.
Planescape continues to rock, ever since 2ed.
And, as Bront suggested, Eberron would be cool.  And Eberron is _sweet_.


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## unleashed (Dec 10, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> Vote for all the ones you like--that's why it is multiple choice.  If I get it down to two or three from this, I can always do a run-off election




Okay I voted and if one of the 'other' suggestions strikes my fancy I'll just make another post.


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## Rystil Arden (Dec 10, 2005)

Bront said:
			
		

> Voted
> 
> I'd love to see you do Eberron, particularly since those games seem to have a high mortality rate here in PbP land.



 I don't have a single Eberron book   You'd be surprised about the random way I made my Eberron characters.  For Selene, it was something like this: Let me find a map of Eberron online.  Okay, what's this tree place called?  Oh, the Eldeen Reaches?  Okay, that's where Selene lives.  I later learned about the Greensingers, and I was amused about how I had randomly chosen the perfect home for her


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## Bront (Dec 10, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> I don't have a single Eberron book   You'd be surprised about the random way I made my Eberron characters.  For Selene, it was something like this: Let me find a map of Eberron online.  Okay, what's this tree place called?  Oh, the Eldeen Reaches?  Okay, that's where Selene lives.  I later learned about the Greensingers, and I was amused about how I had randomly chosen the perfect home for her



Yeah, but you have had access to it.  I'm sure you coud do something if you tried


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## Rystil Arden (Dec 10, 2005)

Heh, looks like my "everyone likes Planescape" comment was true so far, with 100% votes for it   Too bad I don't have any specific ideas for Planescape yet--I just put it up there because I think it's cool 

I have the most planning done for the top two, some general ideas for Eyros and Spelljamming, and not much for Planescape.  I could try to do something Eberronish, but I would probably be pulling most of it out of...well, you know


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## Rystil Arden (Dec 10, 2005)

Bront said:
			
		

> Yeah, but you have had access to it.  I'm sure you coud do something if you tried



 My parents asked me what my little brother would want for the holidays, and I told them Five Nations and Sharn, City of Towers, so I might have access to those.  He already has ECS, Races of Eberron, and Magic of Eberron.  The problem is that I haven't read them at all


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## Bront (Dec 10, 2005)

I've seen Planescape once, never played it, but it always looked interesting.  I think I could do my Eberron character there too.  Been itching to do a Recaster.

You doing gestalt on any/all of these?  I know you like that.


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## Lord Wyrm (Dec 10, 2005)

> My parents asked me what my little brother would want for the holidays, and I told them Five Nations and Sharn, City of Towers, so I might have access to those. He already has ECS, Races of Eberron, and Magic of Eberron. The problem is that I haven't read them at all




I should of asked for Sharn, too late now  , ah well.


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## unleashed (Dec 10, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> Heh, looks like my "everyone likes Planescape" comment was true so far, with 100% votes for it   Too bad I don't have any specific ideas for Planescape yet--I just put it up there because I think it's cool




Well I never got to play Planescape, even though my brother had all the material he never ran a game that used any of it.


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## Rystil Arden (Dec 10, 2005)

Bront said:
			
		

> I've seen Planescape once, never played it, but it always looked interesting.  I think I could do my Eberron character there too.  Been itching to do a Recaster.
> 
> You doing gestalt on any/all of these?  I know you like that.



 None of these would be gestalt except for the one listed as gestalt.  The Post-Arthurian has some very powerful PrCs, though.


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## Rystil Arden (Dec 10, 2005)

unleashed said:
			
		

> Well I never got to play Planescape, even though my brother had all the material he never ran a game that used any of it.



 I wish I had more Planescape material than I do (I really wish I had Faces of Evil and the Planes of X box-sets), but I must suffice with what I have, which is all three 2e Monstrous Compendiums, the basic box set, Tales from the Infinite Staircase, and the Guide to the Ethereal Plane.


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## doghead (Dec 10, 2005)

I voted for post Authurian. Partly because I like the period, and partly because I like the idea of playing with pregenerated characters. I'm a bit over character generation at the moment.

thotd


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## Bront (Dec 10, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> I wish I had more Planescape material than I do (I really wish I had Faces of Evil and the Planes of X box-sets), but I must suffice with what I have, which is all three 2e Monstrous Compendiums, the basic box set, Tales from the Infinite Staircase, and the Guide to the Ethereal Plane.



There's an online guide around somewhere.  I have the link at home.


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## Rystil Arden (Dec 10, 2005)

doghead said:
			
		

> I voted for post Authurian. Partly because I like the period, and partly because I like the idea of playing with pregenerated characters. I'm a bit over character generation at the moment.
> 
> thotd



 That's cool.  I know some people don't like pregens, but I've had some great success with playtesting the Post-Arthurian campaign with the pregens.  The most satisfying part is that I ran this one once for some young high schoolers and used a lot of Celtic themes, and then they had to answer questions in academic competitions and they knew it from my game.  Yay, games can teach you something!  It also helped me out a bunch when I discovered (and immediately signed up for) the class 'Arthurian Literature and Celtic Colonisation'


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## Rystil Arden (Dec 10, 2005)

Bront said:
			
		

> There's an online guide around somewhere.  I have the link at home.



 Oh, don't get me wrong--I do know all the basics about Planescape.  I can name all the Outer Planes in order in the circle and the layers of many of them (the ones with countable layers at least ), and I was enough of a Planescape vet to be upset and indignant about the silly changes they made in 3e.  It's just that I heard that Faces of Evil in particular was super-awesome


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## Bront (Dec 10, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> Oh, don't get me wrong--I do know all the basics about Planescape.  I can name all the Outer Planes in order in the circle and the layers of many of them (the ones with countable layers at least ), and I was enough of a Planescape vet to be upset and indignant about the silly changes they made in 3e.  It's just that I heard that Faces of Evil in particular was super-awesome



I ment for filling people in who have none of the material (like myself) and never played.

I'm not a planar buff, and don't recal much of it other than some from 1st Ed about which planes are which, but I could easily play that up with an accidental traveler.


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## Eluvan (Dec 10, 2005)

Squeee!

 This is the most exciting recruitment post I've seen in a long time. Chock-full of games that I want to jump on and eat up like candy. 

 I think the one that I'm most excited by is the post-Arthurian game. I'm a huge fan of my Arthurian mythology, and Anglo-Saxon England generally. The Irish connection is also particularly wonderful. I'd *love* to play that Fenian berserker/Skald. The whole idea of pregenerated histories also kind of appeals to me - I love working on my characters, but I've been doing a lot of that recently and I think it'd be a really nice change of pace to work instead on getting really deeply into a character somebody else has fluffed out for you. 

 Failing that, I'm an inveterate Planescape lover. The only game I run at the moment is Planescape, and periodically I curse EnWorld in general for not producing enough Planescape games that I've ever managed to get in on one as a player. So that sounds highly appealing. 

 Oh, and you're right that Faces of Evil is a great supplement. I love it to pieces. You can get a PDF of it for $4.95 at RPG Now, if you're interested.

 And your homebrew, too, sounds quite delightful. So... I voted for those three, as the ones that stand out to me as the most interesting and exciting. But I certainly wouldn't turn my nose up at any of those games.


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## Jolmo (Dec 10, 2005)

I've been away from PBP-gaming for several months now, but this post pulled me back in again. 

Anyway, I voted for the post-Arthurian game because of the potential in a game where the characters are designed along with the plot so they all fit in with it and each other; Kiss of Darkness because it just sounds interesting; and planescape because I've wanted to play that ever since I picked up PS:Torment.


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## ghostcat (Dec 10, 2005)

I've voted for Kiss of Darkness & Eyros cos I prefer traditional D&D


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## Munin (Dec 10, 2005)

I went for Kiss of Darkness also. I'm a sucker for conspiracies.


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## Rystil Arden (Dec 10, 2005)

Bront said:
			
		

> I ment for filling people in who have none of the material (like myself) and never played.
> 
> I'm not a planar buff, and don't recal much of it other than some from 1st Ed about which planes are which, but I could easily play that up with an accidental traveler.



 Ah, that's cool.  Yep, you could just be a Clueless sod.  But don't mind if most people you meet tell you to quit rattling yer bonebox until you know the dark of it, berk!


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## Rystil Arden (Dec 10, 2005)

Eluvan said:
			
		

> Squeee!
> 
> This is the most exciting recruitment post I've seen in a long time. Chock-full of games that I want to jump on and eat up like candy.
> 
> ...





> and Anglo-Saxon England generally




Just a note, though--the Saxons are still the invading barbarian bad guys for the moment, though they have a strong foothold in the south and east.  Even so, Mordred and his allies were driven back at Camlin and have been unable to launch another effective assault into Caer Gwinntguic yet...but their numbers are growing, and trouble is brewing in the east.


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## Rystil Arden (Dec 10, 2005)

Hmm...let's see.  Kiss of Darkness is in the lead for the moment, with Post-Arthurian and Planescape right behind!


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## Manzanita (Dec 10, 2005)

Alright.  I don't normally start games on this forum, but Rytil is a pretty reliable DM, eh?  I did really like the Immortality Awakens proposal.  I'm pretty much a straight D&D guy, so I voted for Kiss of Darkness.  I've had great fun in homebrews in which the DM is really invested.  

I am a King Arthur fan, as well as being a big history reader, so I'd love to play in that one too.  I'm just unsure how it would work.  Games like that are also a bit dangerous to try on PbP, in my experience.  Due to the high drop-out rate, if you invest a lot in the backgrounds of the starting PCs, then the players go AWOL, it can be difficult to keep the game going.

In any case, I'm going to keep an eye on this thread & hope I can get in.  Thanks for starting something up, Rystil.  We always need good DMs.


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## Rystil Arden (Dec 10, 2005)

> but Rytil is a pretty reliable DM, eh?




I'm glad that I am considered that way   PbP is what got me most of these posts, so it's probably true.



> I am a King Arthur fan, as well as being a big history reader, so I'd love to play in that one too. I'm just unsure how it would work. Games like that are also a bit dangerous to try on PbP, in my experience. Due to the high drop-out rate, if you invest a lot in the backgrounds of the starting PCs, then the players go AWOL, it can be difficult to keep the game going.




Hmm...well it's definitely a good question.  I've run at least parts of the first two games here face to face, and I have indeed had some drop-outs.  What I guess I would do is ask replacement players to be kind enough to take over the character for the player they are replacing, allowing a bit of mechanical retconning to suit the new player if she likes.  I've actually done that IRL in the Post-Arthurian game, and it has usually worked rather well** and PbP would make it actually easier by putting the whole game at the new player's fingertips.  Ideally, if we have players on whom I know I can count who are reliable to keep posting, like you as a LEW Judge, we wouldn't have to replace anyone.

**(although the time when a Spanish guy took over for Naoise and betrayed the party was troubling, but that Spanish guy betrayed the party in any game he played, so I guess it wasn't a surprise--his most famous character was a fallen-paladin turned necromancer who fell for looting the corpse of the Zhentarim leader during a fight, leaving his adjacent barbarian ally to die to the blades of the others, and then he brought around a huge cart to store his loot everywhere, including one foray into the Abyss)


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## Nonlethal Force (Dec 10, 2005)

I voted for homebrew.

I just like homebrews as long as the info is up front.

And ... I'd be interested in being in a game that moves.  I think my games that I DM move pretty well ... but the games that I am a player in are pretty slow.  So if you are looking for a player that is willing to post in a game between 1/day up to 4/day ... I'm in.  

If you allow psionics, I've never played a psionic warrior.  Would be willing to give that a try.  If you don't allow psionics ... then I'll figure something else out ... Heh.  I've got this "awakened" talking badger that is amuzing some of my players at the moment!


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## Eluvan (Dec 10, 2005)

> Just a note, though--the Saxons are still the invading barbarian bad guys for the moment, though they have a strong foothold in the south and east. Even so, Mordred and his allies were driven back at Camlin and have been unable to launch another effective assault into Caer Gwinntguic yet...but their numbers are growing, and trouble is brewing in the east.




 Right, okay. So not-quite-Anglo-Saxon England then.

 It's all good. 

 I'm interested though - what is your take on the Arthurian legends for the purposes of this game? Obviously they've been interpreted and reinterpreted all over the place. Was Arthur a fine, upstanding paragon of Christian goodness? Or was he a more ambiguous figure? Is the general tone one of heroism and valour and so on, or is the setting more gritty and dark?

 Oh, and allow me to add my voice to the clamour for a fast-moving game. I'm finding myself frustrated with the slow pace of a lot of PbP games, and the idea of a more swiftly flowing game sounds great to me.


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## Rystil Arden (Dec 10, 2005)

Nonlethal Force said:
			
		

> I voted for homebrew.
> 
> I just like homebrews as long as the info is up front.
> 
> ...



 Well, I do like fast-moving games:  You'll notice that my current games can be very fast-moving at times (the ones I GM at least, though the ones where I'm a player are usually slow ), and I've seen 100 posts in a day in one game once , but that was definitely an aberration.

I'm a big fan of psionics and allow it in most of my games, but there are no psionic characters in the starting region for Kiss of Darkness, so in that particular game, it wouldn't be allowed.  But in the spirit of keeping the Balance between yes and no, I will mention that I do allow characters to play races with LA and racial hit dice, and I'll build up a progression for you starting from level 1 if there isn't one.  In my face-to-face game, one player played an azer cleric who was quite an interesting guy.  

As far as up-front info, the world of Kiss of Darkness is rather interesting in that it is fairly insular--there is a fairly wide area that has been explored, but there are highly dangerous regions that have caused the vast majority of the world to be a mystery for modern-day scholars.  Exploring the unknown is something that my Face to Face players really enjoyed after they played through the Kiss of Darkness storyline.


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## Rystil Arden (Dec 10, 2005)

Eluvan said:
			
		

> Right, okay. So not-quite-Anglo-Saxon England then.
> 
> It's all good.
> 
> ...





> I'm interested though - what is your take on the Arthurian legends for the purposes of this game? Obviously they've been interpreted and reinterpreted all over the place. Was Arthur a fine, upstanding paragon of Christian goodness? Or was he a more ambiguous figure? Is the general tone one of heroism and valour and so on, or is the setting more gritty and dark?




Well, I have a bunch of unusual takes on different things, stemming from a variety of different sources as well as my own imagination, and most of it is something that the characters don't know for sure.  I will say this though:  I had a discussion with someone on these boards who thought that Mallory was the first person to write down the Arthurian legend, and that made me giggle.  Gildas, Bede, Nennius, Geoffrey of Monmouth, and even Gerald of Wales made mention as early as the 6th century AD, Marie de France's Lais were in the 12th century, with several Arthurian in theme, and the main originator of much of what would become modern Arthurian legend was Chretien de Troyes, also in the 12th century, and those who continued his unfinished works.  Then you get to the Pearl Poet, who is the first one that most modern readers know (this mysterious author wrote Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, among others).  Then the Vulgate Cycle, where things start to become recognisable to the Mallory-readers and spread out, and then finally Mallory, last of all.

The general tone is of heroism and valour...at least on the surface!   Gritty darkness and betrayal lurk beneath the veneer of polite chivalry. 

Yup, I like fast games too


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## Eluvan (Dec 10, 2005)

> Well, I have a bunch of unusual takes on different things, stemming from a variety of different sources as well as my own imagination, and most of it is something that the characters don't know for sure. I will say this though: I had a discussion with someone on these boards who thought that Mallory was the first person to write down the Arthurian legend, and that made me giggle. Gildas, Bede, Nennius, Geoffrey of Monmouth, and even Gerald of Wales made mention as early as the 6th century AD, Marie de France's Lais were in the 12th century, with several Arthurian in theme, and the main originator of much of what would become modern Arthurian legend was Chretien de Troyes, also in the 12th century, and those who continued his unfinished works. Then you get to the Pearl Poet, who is the first one that most modern readers know (this mysterious author wrote Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, among others). Then the Vulgate Cycle, where things start to become recognisable to the Mallory-readers and spread out, and then finally Mallory, last of all.




 Well that's all reassuring. I'm pretty deeply into my history, so it would have been frustrating to play an Arthurian-related game with a DM who thought that Mallory invented King Arthur. 

 Of course, I guess it likely won't matter that much since it seems like Kiss of Darkness is extending its lead. Oh well, that looks pretty awesome too. 

 I particularly like the theme of exploration you mentioned... that sounds fun to me. I'll have to think about what kind of character would synergise well with that.


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## Rystil Arden (Dec 10, 2005)

> Well that's all reassuring. I'm pretty deeply into my history, so it would have been frustrating to play an Arthurian-related game with a DM who thought that Mallory invented King Arthur.




Don't worry--I did extensive research into Celtic Mythology and Arthurian legend and then took a course in Arthurian Literature and Celtic Colonisation, so I'm pretty set (not that I used everything I saw, mind you ) 



> I particularly like the theme of exploration you mentioned... that sounds fun to me. I'll have to think about what kind of character would synergise well with that.




Keep in mind, and this may be important, that the exploration theme is not emphasised too much in the initial story involving plots and cults and conspiracies, although actually, when I think of it, it kind of is, and there's a bunch of fun research that could be used to help out in the adventure, perhaps the first time a Bard would actually be a useful character--I think my Face to Face players paid an NPC Bard to use his Bardic Knowledge for them to help out.  The truly hardcore exploration came about in the later stages (which you couldn't honestly call Kiss of Darkness any more), after the players had explored the first storyline and levelled up a bunch and wanted to tie up some loose ends.


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## Eluvan (Dec 10, 2005)

> perhaps the first time a Bard would actually be a useful character




 Ouch, harsh.  

 It doesn't take much encouragement to convince me to play a bard, so that's one possibility. It's been a while since I've played a rogue, so that's looking like quite an appealing option too. I'd probably go for one or the other. 



> The truly hardcore exploration came about in the later stages (which you couldn't honestly call Kiss of Darkness any more), after the players had explored the first storyline and levelled up a bunch and wanted to tie up some loose ends.




 Would you be planning on potentially taking the PbP game that far? Or would you call it a day after the 'Kiss of Darkness' adventure was over? I want in either way, but I'd be particularly joyous to learn that there was potential for long-term advancement.


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## Rystil Arden (Dec 10, 2005)

> Would you be planning on potentially taking the PbP game that far? Or would you call it a day after the 'Kiss of Darkness' adventure was over? I want in either way, but I'd be particularly joyous to learn that there was potential for long-term advancement.




There's always potential for advancement if the players want to continue.  You should see the ideas I have with my four Spelljamming games--they are all four set in a persistent universe, so shared NPCs have appeared in multiple games, and I'm thinking that if characters wind up ~ the same level and end an adventure at the same time, I might allow them to hop between games or even switch out, keeping their persistent characters in a Living RystilWorld kind of thing   I might do that here too.


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## Eluvan (Dec 10, 2005)

Woah. 

 Sweet.


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## Rystil Arden (Dec 10, 2005)

> It doesn't take much encouragement to convince me to play a bard, so that's one possibility.




I love the Bard archetype dearly, but I _hate_ the 3.0 and 3.5 Bard.  Because of this, I've played characters such as: A 3.0 Wizard/Virtuoso who had full Wizard casting and all the Bard songs, a Telepath masquerading as a Bard with her psicrystal set in her lute, and a Spelldancer.  One cool thing in the Post-Arthurian setting is that it uses all of my variant Bard classes and PrCs, and I've made quite a few.  Oisin, for instance, is a Skald, which has Full BAB, 4 skill points, and songs a bit slower (but still Inspire Courage at level 1), with no magic.


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## Eluvan (Dec 11, 2005)

Hmmm. If you don't mind me asking, why no love for the 3.5 bard? The 3.0 bard I thought was lacking, but since the 3.5 revisions I've never had a problem with the class. What don't you like?


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## Rystil Arden (Dec 11, 2005)

Eluvan said:
			
		

> Hmmm. If you don't mind me asking, why no love for the 3.5 bard? The 3.0 bard I thought was lacking, but since the 3.5 revisions I've never had a problem with the class. What don't you like?



 It's just weak compared to any of the other classes.  It tries to be a jack of all trades, but winds up being less useful at any of them than any other class (except if the adventure calls crucially for Bardic Knowledge, which is a neat ability, but that isn't all too often).  Give me a party with a Bard, and I can give you a party that is better all-arounf one that doesn't have the Bard.  Admittedly, it is a significant advancement from the 3.0 Bard, but it still is very weak.


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## Eluvan (Dec 11, 2005)

Hmmm... okay. I'm inclined to disagree, but... eh, each to their own. 

 So are you offering house ruled bards in your homebrew game? Or would that one use the standard class?


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## Rystil Arden (Dec 11, 2005)

Eluvan said:
			
		

> Hmmm... okay. I'm inclined to disagree, but... eh, each to their own.
> 
> So are you offering house ruled bards in your homebrew game? Or would that one use the standard class?



 My Homebrew world uses the standard classes mostly, since the Arthurian classes are balanced with that setting in mind.  I have, however, playtested the Troubadour class (onw of several variant Bards I invented) in my Homebrew, and it seems to work well.  My face to face players all have Leadership, and one of them once had a Bard cohort because they thought she would be helpful, but they sent her away because she was so useless.  They picked up a Troubadour, though, and have been very happy with her.

Edit:  And I suppose if someone asked to play a Magician or an Enchantress, I'd definitely allow it.  However, that is unlikely because they are arguably a bit weaker than standard Wizards due to being barred to only a few schools


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## Eluvan (Dec 11, 2005)

Hmmm... it's no good, I'm not finding the Troubadour in your House Rule thread. The bare bones of the class are in the Excel spreadsheet with all the classes on it, but without explanation of the special abilities that doesn't do that much good. Do you think you could point me at a full version of the class? I'm intrigued.


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## Rystil Arden (Dec 11, 2005)

Oh, the House Rules thread actually has a different Troubadour   I'm not talking about my gestalt Troubadour but instead my non-gestalt Troubadour.  I'll put it here in SBLOCKs 

[SBLOCK=Troubadour]Troubadour
BAB		Ref	Fort	Will	Special
+0		+0	+0	+2	Minne, Minuet
+1		+0	+0	+3	Paean, Requiem
+2		+1	+1	+3	Pastoral, Holy Thre, Madrigal
+3		+1	+1	+4	Unholy Thre, Mambo, Kybele's Thre
+3		+1	+1	+4	Liquefying Thre, Lullaby, Aerial Thre
+4		+2	+2	+5	Operetta, Flame Thre, Bewitching E, Boreal Thre
+5		+2	+2	+5	Spirited E, Electric Thre, Arcane Ballad, Sage E
+6		+2	+2	+6	Mass Lullaby, Andante March, Vivacious E 
+6		+3	+3	+6	Prelude, Swift E
+7		+3	+3	+7	Aubade, Finale, Herculean Etude
+8		+3	+3	+7	Holy Carol, Kybele's Carol, Wistful Elegy
+9		+4	+4	+8	Liquefying Carol, Aerial Carol, Flame Carol
+9		+4	+4	+8	Boreal Carol, Electric Carol, Gavotte
+10		+4	+4	+9	Unholy Carol, Capriccio
+11		+5	+5	+9	Eldritch Ballad, Shining Fantasia
+12		+5	+5	+10	Woeful Elegy, Allegro March
+12		+5	+5	+10	Goddess Hymnus
+13		+6	+6	+11 	Warding Round
+14		+6	+6	+11	Pegasus Mazurka
+15		+6	+6	+12	Maiden's Virelai

Hit Dice: 1d6
Skill Points: 4+Int Bonus (Use Bard skill list)

Melodies once per day per Troubadour level (Only one melody per Troubadour can affect the same creature at a single time)-
Guardian Minne: DR 1/-, + 1/- per 5 levels
Carnage Minuet: +1 Morale Bonus to Melee Damage, + 1 per 5 levels
Healing Paean: Fast Healing 1, + 1 per 5 levels
Discordant Requiem: Enemy takes 1 Damage / round + 1 per 5 levels until she saves
Herb Pastoral: +4 Morale Bonus to saves against Poison, Immunity to Poison at 10
Threnodys: Weakness 2 vs element and -1 to saves vs school + Weakness 2 and - 1 saves per 5 levels (Holy = Positive Energy and Abjuration, Unholy = Negative Energy and Necromancy, Kybele's = Earth/Acid and Divination, Liquefying = Water and Transmutation, Aerial = Air and Conjuration, Flame = Fire and Enchantment, Boreal = Ice and Illusion, Electric = Electricity and Evocation)
Precise Madrigal: +1 Morale Bonus to Melee Attacks, +1 per 5 levels 
Evasive Mambo: +1 Morale Bonus to AC, +1 per 5 levels
Lullaby: As the Sleep spell, but one target only
Intransigent Operetta: +4 Morale Bonus to saves against Compulsions, Immunity to Compulsion at 15
Etudes: +2 Morale Bonus to Stat, +2 per 10 levels (Bewitching = Charisma, Spirited = Wisdom, Sage = Intelligence, Vivacious = Constitution, Swift = Dexterity, Herculean = Strength)  
Arcane Ballad: Enchantresses count spells as 1 level lower for Channeling, Magicians get +4 to Strength and Constitution of summoned creatures, Necromancers get +4 to Strength and +2 hp/HD of their undead, Witches may have two of the participants in a coven use each spell before it fades, and Wizards may substitute any memorised spell for any spell in one of his spellbooks he can browse through as a full-round action  
Mass Lullaby: As the Deep Slumber spell, multiple targets allowed
Andante March: Allies gain an extra Move-Equivalent Action per round
Archer's Prelude: +1 Morale Bonus to Ranged Attack and Damage, +1 per 5 levels 
Vigilant Aubade: +4 Morale Bonus to saves against Sleep, Immunity to Sleep at 15
Dispelling Finale: Dispels spells active on an opponent
Carols:  Resistance 2 vs element and +1 to saves vs school, + Res 2 and + 1 saves per 5 levels (same correspondance as Threnody)
Wistful Elegy: Affected opponent is limited to one partial action per round
Freedom Gavotte: +4 Morale Bonus to saves against Paralysis, Immunity to Paralysis at 20
Calcification Capriccio: +4 Morale Bonus to saves against Petrification, Immunity to Petrification at 20
Eldritch Ballad:  Enchantresses count spells as 2 level lower for Channeling, Magicians get +8 to Strength and Constitution of summoned creatures, Necromancers get +8 to Strength and +4 hp/HD of their undead, Witches may have all three of the participants in a coven use each spell before it fades, and Wizards may substitute any memorised spell for any spell he has learned as a move-equivalent action
Shining Fantasia: +4 Morale Bonus to saves against Level Drain and Death Effects, Immunity to Level Drain and Death Effects at 20
Woeful Elegy: Affected opponent is limited to one move-equivalent action per round
Allegro March: Allies gain an extra partial action per round
Goddess Hymnus: Allies' hit point total remains at 1 or above unless a blow would knock them dead, in which case they become unconscious but stabilised one hit point above death, with the excess damage taken as nonlethal damage
Warding Round:  Allies gain SR 10, + 5 per 5 levels
Pegasus Mazurka: Allies gain a flight speed equal to twice their base movement speed
Maiden's Virelai: As the Dominate Monster spell[/SBLOCK]


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## Eluvan (Dec 11, 2005)

Oooooh that looks *very* cool. 

 I absolutely love the way the troubadour gets so many different, interesting and unique songs. That's a really nice mechanic. I do believe you've got me sold on that one! Character concepts are forming fast. 

Few questions that spring immediately to mind; how many of those abilities rely on concentration, how many can be maintained as a free action once started, and how many persist (I assume for 5 rounds, like some bardic music) once the troubadour stops singing? Do the debuffing abilities allow SR? And... I assume the sleep-like abilities are free of HD restrictions?

 Oh, and incidentally I'm going to bed now, so I'll stop monopolising your time with my incessant questions.


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## Rystil Arden (Dec 11, 2005)

Eluvan said:
			
		

> Oooooh that looks *very* cool.
> 
> I absolutely love the way the troubadour gets so many different, interesting and unique songs. That's a really nice mechanic. I do believe you've got me sold on that one! Character concepts are forming fast.
> 
> ...



 Glad you like it 

All of them require a move action to concentrate, and they last 3 rounds after concentration ends (which can be increased to 6 by a feat).  Any single target can only be affected by one song from a particular Troubadour at a time (but there's a feat to allow virtuostic Troubadours to carry multiple tunes between their instrument and their voice, allowing targets to be affected by two songs at once.  The feats for Lingering Song, Twin Songs, and Extra Songs (which gives +Cha modifier Songs per day) are typically favourites of the Troubadour.  

The debuffing effects do not allow SR except for the Sleep effects, but the others have an initial chance to resist and then a chance each round for it not to affect them.  The sleep abilities have HD restrictions, but those restrictions raise as the Troubadour increases in level.


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## Nonlethal Force (Dec 11, 2005)

Well, if Eluvan's finally done with your time ...    <- @ Eluvan

I am still very interested in the homebrew.  What books do you allow?  I have all the complete and core, plus XPH (which isn't going to be a big help anyways...  ) and the BoED.  I tend to really enjoy playing good alignments - I'm assuming that's alright as well.

Since my psi warrior was shot down in a burning heap of flames ... how about I pitch a few ideas at you:

1. CG Warlock (If you allow them).  Motivated by the evil of his (or her) father and his (or her) father's father - he (or she) feels the need to reinstate the family name.  In combat, the character prefers ranged combat through the use of Eldritch Spear.  Out of combat is where the character tries to shine beyond the eldritch spear as most of the characters invocations are non-combat oriented.

2. [If you prefer Core options] A NG druidess who has grown to tolerate civilization when she has to but absolutely enjoys the wild/underworld.  She's really into mustelids - ferrets, badgers, etc.  She is game for anything that means twarting threats to the land and even the people in it.

3.  [If someone is into making a cooperative background] I'd be happy to work up my part of a pairing headed for the nightsong enforcer/infiltrator combo.  Or, for that matter the shadowbane pairing rocks as well.  I'm not as keen on the daggerspell stuff, but if I had a partner who really got into it I'd explore it.  Of course, that would require DM's approval and Complete Adventurer.

4. I'd be game to work up a non-theiving rogue.  In other words, a diplomacy/spying master.  This character would most likely be half-elven if allowed.  Very attractive ... and unafraid to mix business with pleasure.   

If none of those get your attention, I can come up with more.  [Edit:  Given the "dark cults" and "conspiracies" part of the homebrew I am most interested in options 3 or 4 ... but I'll play any of them]

Let me know!


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## Rystil Arden (Dec 11, 2005)

OK--let me get to all of these:



> What books do you allow?




In my homebrew, things work a little differently than in my Gestalt setting (I say this for the benefit of the people from my other games who have gotten used to my rules from those games).  I generally allow most things from WotC books (except Complete Divine, or as I like to call it, Completely Broken ).  Tell me what non-core stuff you're using in a character, and I'll usually say yes.  Even setting-specific stuff from other settings, except I don't have Shifters or Warforged from Eberron.  I'll build in PrCs too to make them work.



> I tend to really enjoy playing good alignments - I'm assuming that's alright as well.




I like Good alignments, and I usually play them too, but I've been known to allow Evil characters too.  Notably, a LN Elf Wizard who turned to the service of evil was one of the main PCs in my Face to Face version of this game.  The other part members told him not to summon an Imp to learn what the cult was doing, but he insisted that it was for the Greater Good, and he continued to fall from there 



> 1. CG Warlock (If you allow them). Motivated by the evil of his (or her) father and his (or her) father's father - he (or she) feels the need to reinstate the family name. In combat, the character prefers ranged combat through the use of Eldritch Spear. Out of combat is where the character tries to shine beyond the eldritch spear as most of the characters invocations are non-combat oriented.




Sounds cool.  I definitely allow Warlocks, and I have one similar to your build myself (My Eberron character Rayni is a Chaotic Good 'Evil Death Warlock' who wants to be friends with people but can't control the darkness within.  Her first invocation was Beguiling Influence).  I've also seen a Magician played in this world with this sort of redemptive background to good effect.



> [If you prefer Core options]




Core stuff is cool, but I would refuse to join a game even if it was being GMed by Monte Cook or some other industry notable if it was core only, so no need to worry there 



> 2: A NG druidess who has grown to tolerate civilization when she has to but absolutely enjoys the wild/underworld. She's really into mustelids - ferrets, badgers, etc. She is game for anything that means twarting threats to the land and even the people in it.




Hey, Mustelids are definitely cool!  Dire Weasel Con Drain can be dangerous, and I allow that cutest of Mustelids, the Mink, as a Wizard Familiar that gives +3 Diplomacy.



> 3. [If someone is into making a cooperative background] I'd be happy to work up my part of a pairing headed for the nightsong enforcer/infiltrator combo. Or, for that matter the shadowbane pairing rocks as well. I'm not as keen on the daggerspell stuff, but if I had a partner who really got into it I'd explore it. Of course, that would require DM's approval and Complete Adventurer.




This'll work too if you can get a buddy. 



> 4. I'd be game to work up a non-theiving rogue. In other words, a diplomacy/spying master. This character would most likely be half-elven if allowed. Very attractive ... and unafraid to mix business with pleasure.




That's a fun archetype.  There is an NPC that has a similar build to this that the party in Face to Face managed to convince to join the party, but it's always good to have lots of Rogues.  When they started, they had 0 Rogues, and they had _loads_ of fun, including one time they were breaking in somewhere that they invented the 'Dwarven Lockpick' and 'Dwarven Trap Disarmer', both of which involve using axes


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## Nonlethal Force (Dec 11, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> I generally allow most things from WotC books (except Complete Divine, or as I like to call it, Completely Broken ).  Tell me what non-core stuff you're using in a character, and I'll usually say yes.  Even setting-specific stuff from other settings, except I don't have Shifters or Warforged from Eberron.  I'll build in PrCs too to make them work.




Complete Divine Broken?  Are you nuts?     It's not too bad in small doses.  Kinda like Complete Adventurer, too.   But you are right - there are some things to watch out for.  Thankfully, I've not had a player yet try to really abuse the broken parts.



			
				Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> Hey, Mustelids are definitely cool!  Dire Weasel Con Drain can be dangerous, and I allow that cutest of Mustelids, the Mink, as a Wizard Familiar that gives +3 Diplomacy.




Yeah, my two ferrets that sit about 3 feet from my computer are definately my muses....



			
				Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> That's a fun archetype.




I've not played one of these in a long time.  Here's where I stand - assuming you let me play and assuming you run the homebrew or some other game that sounds interesting where the concept works.  I'm thinking of going for the half-elf rogue build as first choice.  However, if someone comes along and really wants to go with the cooperative background and do a pairing from Complete Adventurer that'd be a quick second choice.

Just so I can start thinking about it - did I miss how character creation is done or is it too soon to be thinking about that type of stuff?


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## Keia (Dec 11, 2005)

Dropped my vote in . . . man, weird things happen when you're busy all day . . . 

Keia


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## Nonlethal Force (Dec 11, 2005)

Keia said:
			
		

> man, weird things happen when you're busy all day




You don't expect us to let that one sit, do you?  Inquiring minds, Keia ...

Oh, and how large a game you plan on running, Rystil?  You've got some seriously respectable interest here.


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## Rystil Arden (Dec 11, 2005)

> Complete Divine Broken? Are you nuts?




A player tried to convince me of this, so I arranged a challenge.  We decided to turn to random pages and see if we found something broken on that page.  We found one every single time.  Things like Divine Spell Power, Divine Metamagic, Radiant Servant of Pelor...He eventually agreed.  The coup de grace was in the Web Enhancement--Dweomercheater of Mystra 

Don't get me wrong--there are a few non-broken things in there, but usually with WotC I can trust that most of it is balanced, especially compared to 3rd party products (even if the 3rd party are more interesting or fun).  With Complete Divine, this isn't true.  I've actually boycotted buying that book, and I have lots and lots and lots of books from 3.5, the vast majority of what they've produced, probably 



> I've not played one of these in a long time. Here's where I stand - assuming you let me play and assuming you run the homebrew or some other game that sounds interesting where the concept works. I'm thinking of going for the half-elf rogue build as first choice. However, if someone comes along and really wants to go with the cooperative background and do a pairing from Complete Adventurer that'd be a quick second choice.




Sounds cool to me.  To get you started--here's a lowdown on elves in my homebrew:  Moon Elves, High Elves, and Forest Elves often live in a city built into the trees in the eastern forest.  (NOTE: High Elves in my setting are *not* the PHB elves--those are Moon Elves.  High Elves are +2 Int -2 Con.)  The Wild Elves live in the outskirts of the dangerous southern jungles.



> Just so I can start thinking about it - did I miss how character creation is done or is it too soon to be thinking about that type of stuff?




I didn't say because character creation is different for each game.  In my homebrew, we just use something very close to the default of 4d6 drop lowest--roll 7 stats at 4d6 drop lowest.  Then drop one stat and keep it.  If you're tricky, you can drop a high stat to become hopeless if you have something like 18 13 8 8 8 8 8.


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## Rystil Arden (Dec 11, 2005)

Nonlethal Force said:
			
		

> You don't expect us to let that one sit, do you?  Inquiring minds, Keia ...
> 
> Oh, and how large a game you plan on running, Rystil?  You've got some seriously respectable interest here.



 Last time I recruited, I wanted 6 and I got around 14, so I wound up making 3 and letting a few people play in multiple games (but then some dropped).  I probably won't make multiples this time, but if I'm feeling particularly generous and full of the holiday spirit, and I've got lots of great players, I just might


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## Rystil Arden (Dec 11, 2005)

Keia said:
			
		

> Dropped my vote in . . . man, weird things happen when you're busy all day . . .
> 
> Keia



 Yup, definitely.  And on another note, it looks like Homebrew has gained a sizable lead


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## Bront (Dec 11, 2005)

Wow, talk about while you were sleeping...

If you have 14+ people interested, I would suggest if you do split and do 2 different games, you only let players in one or the other, just for the sake of not only sanity, but fairness to get as many different people involved.

Darkness could be interesting.  I don't think I voted for it simply because I've enjoyed your stranger things.

I'm not a big authurian buff, so I'd pass on that one.

Not sure what I'm looking to do.  The 3 big ideas I have are from Eberron, so unless they port over, I'd probably have to come up with something.


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## Rystil Arden (Dec 11, 2005)

Bront said:
			
		

> Wow, talk about while you were sleeping...
> 
> If you have 14+ people interested, I would suggest if you do split and do 2 different games, you only let players in one or the other, just for the sake of not only sanity, but fairness to get as many different people involved.
> 
> ...



 Hmm...they probably don't port over to any of these except Planescape, but it's possible that they do if they're very light on the 'Eberron'ness of the concept (being not a Shifter or Warforged will help ).


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## Bront (Dec 11, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> Hmm...they probably don't port over to any of these except Planescape, but it's possible that they do if they're very light on the 'Eberron'ness of the concept (being not a Shifter or Warforged will help ).



One's a changeling (I guess they're easy to port), and one's a Dragonmarked Heir.

Zan and Vander from my full sig, both in dead games 

Vander was a tweek of the Arisocrat NPC class, basicly giving him fighter feats, but all else as Arisocrat.  It seemed fairly balanced, drop a HD and BAB to get 2 SP and a wider skill selection.  Probably a bit weaker, but it worked.


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## Rystil Arden (Dec 11, 2005)

Bront said:
			
		

> One's a changeling (I guess they're easy to port), and one's a Dragonmarked Heir.
> 
> Zan and Vander from my full sig, both in dead games
> 
> Vander was a tweek of the Arisocrat NPC class, basicly giving him fighter feats, but all else as Arisocrat.  It seemed fairly balanced, drop a HD and BAB to get 2 SP and a wider skill selection.  Probably a bit weaker, but it worked.



 Dragonmarked Heir pretty clearly won't work.  If the Changeling is the Recaster you were talking about, I think that should be fine--it makes sense that Doppleganger descendants might have some of their ancestors' powers


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## Bront (Dec 11, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> Dragonmarked Heir pretty clearly won't work.  If the Changeling is the Recaster you were talking about, I think that should be fine--it makes sense that Doppleganger descendants might have some of their ancestors' powers



Cool.  That's probably the way I'd go then


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## Nonlethal Force (Dec 11, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> Last time I recruited, I wanted 6 and I got around 14, so I wound up making 3 and letting a few people play in multiple games (but then some dropped).  I probably won't make multiples this time, but if I'm feeling particularly generous and full of the holiday spirit, *and I've got lots of great players*, I just might




_[Emphasis in bolding is mine]_

So, ummm.  I guess you're just stuck with the ones that responded, eh?  No great players by the look of things ...     Actually, this probably won't come as a surprise (since it seems like a lot of the people who game are in multiple games with each other) but I play with a few of these other guys floating around ehre and truthfully have nothing but respect for the ones who are players in the games I DM.  I just couldn't resist giving everyone a hard time!

Oh, and I was kidding about the CD comment about it being broken.  (And you being nuts for that matter!)  I've heard more than a few people complain about CD.  So that was nothing new.  Good to know, though.


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## Rystil Arden (Dec 11, 2005)

> So, ummm. I guess you're just stuck with the ones that responded, eh? No great players by the look of things ...  Actually, this probably won't come as a surprise (since it seems like a lot of the people who game are in multiple games with each other) but I play with a few of these other guys floating around ehre and truthfully have nothing but respect for the ones who are players in the games I DM. I just couldn't resist giving everyone a hard time!




Well, of these 14, I've GMed 4 of them (Bront, BS, Keia, Unleashed), I've played in a game with Jolmo, and I've seen some of Manzanita's work in LEW, so that's already six who I know about first-hand.  Then I've heard good things about you from our common accomplices, and the others who I haven't had the pleasure to meet yet in game seem like good chaps too.



> Oh, and I was kidding about the CD comment about it being broken. (And you being nuts for that matter!) I've heard more than a few people complain about CD. So that was nothing new. Good to know, though.




Yup, it's totally broken.  I've allowed some things that some people think are broken, but nothing to the level of CD.  Nothing even close  (And that includes the original party in this adventure which wound up including a Paladin of Freedom/Frenzied Berserker and an Incantatrix/Archmage  )


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## Eluvan (Dec 11, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> Glad you like it
> 
> All of them require a move action to concentrate, and they last 3 rounds after concentration ends (which can be increased to 6 by a feat).  Any single target can only be affected by one song from a particular Troubadour at a time (but there's a feat to allow virtuostic Troubadours to carry multiple tunes between their instrument and their voice, allowing targets to be affected by two songs at once.  The feats for Lingering Song, Twin Songs, and Extra Songs (which gives +Cha modifier Songs per day) are typically favourites of the Troubadour.
> 
> The debuffing effects do not allow SR except for the Sleep effects, but the others have an initial chance to resist and then a chance each round for it not to affect them.  The sleep abilities have HD restrictions, but those restrictions raise as the Troubadour increases in level.





 Great, thanks for the information. That all seems to make sense. 

 Sleeping on it, though, has made me not quite so certain that this is the kind of character I want to play in this game. And in any case, it's looking like even if I do get to play, it won't be in the Homebrew, since it wasn't my first choice and I'm guessing that I'll only get a chance to play if you run more than one game. 

 So I guess I'll wait and see which game, if any, I end up in before I start thinking much more deeply about my character.


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## Bloodweaver1 (Dec 11, 2005)

I'm down!
Interested in either the Homebrew or Planscape. (I'm with Bront for Eberron!)
Would you allow Warforges in any of your games?
I've been itch'n to tryout a PW 'forge. 
But if not I can come up with something else. 
How long until this kicks off?

-Blood


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## Manzanita (Dec 11, 2005)

For what its worth, if you do end up running two, including the Authurian one, it's probably worth trying to find players with a track record.  In the adventure I ran on these boards, I invested a lot of plot in the initial PCs, and put in many recurring NPCs, and plot clues.  When we suddenly lost two of the originals about 1.5 years into it, even though I re-recruited, it just wasn't the same.  I was unable to generate enthusiasm within myself to properly acquaint the new players with the complex plot.  Being a fast poster would help.  The faster you go, the easier it is for the players to remember clues, and the more ground you can cover before people go AWOL.  You're an experienced DM, anyhow; you probably have your own ideas about how to cover this sort of thing.


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## Rystil Arden (Dec 11, 2005)

Bloodweaver1 said:
			
		

> I'm down!
> Interested in either the Homebrew or Planscape. (I'm with Bront for Eberron!)
> Would you allow Warforges in any of your games?
> I've been itch'n to tryout a PW 'forge.
> ...



 Warforged...if I ran Eberron, I would make them LA +0 because the Eberron book says that they are in Eberron.  _But_ if I allowed them in any other setting, and I probably would not, they would be LA +1, no question.  Warforged and Whisper Gnomes, in that order, are the two most overpowered races that are supposedly LA +0.  Try looking at the Tiefling and explain its LA +1


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## Rystil Arden (Dec 11, 2005)

Manzanita said:
			
		

> For what its worth, if you do end up running two, including the Authurian one, it's probably worth trying to find players with a track record.  In the adventure I ran on these boards, I invested a lot of plot in the initial PCs, and put in many recurring NPCs, and plot clues.  When we suddenly lost two of the originals about 1.5 years into it, even though I re-recruited, it just wasn't the same.  I was unable to generate enthusiasm within myself to properly acquaint the new players with the complex plot.  Being a fast poster would help.  The faster you go, the easier it is for the players to remember clues, and the more ground you can cover before people go AWOL.  You're an experienced DM, anyhow; you probably have your own ideas about how to cover this sort of thing.



 Yes, it was definitely tough on me in the Face-to-Face game to acquaint the new players to the complex plotline, and basically what happened is that they got the gist, but the three players who were really really into it remembered everything and slipped the new guys details when necessary 

With PbP, it may be easier--If I must re-recruit, and I hopefully I won't need to, I could ask new recruits to skim or read through the earlier sections of the adventure thread, and hopefully that would help--what do you think?


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## Lord_Raven88 (Dec 11, 2005)

I voted for the 'Kiss of Darkness' games


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## Mista Collins (Dec 12, 2005)

Man, being gone for the weekend sure left me a lot of reading to do. I would definitely enjoy a Eyros campaign. Then again, I would enjoy any of them. But being I didn't want to heck all the boxes because that would have been silly, I selected either Eyros option. Pirates would be cool, I like pirates.


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## Rystil Arden (Dec 12, 2005)

Lord_Raven88 said:
			
		

> I voted for the 'Kiss of Darkness' games



 Okay, cool


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## Rystil Arden (Dec 12, 2005)

Mista Collins said:
			
		

> Man, being gone for the weekend sure left me a lot of reading to do. I would definitely enjoy a Eyros campaign. Then again, I would enjoy any of them. But being I didn't want to heck all the boxes because that would have been silly, I selected either Eyros option. Pirates would be cool, I like pirates.





> Man, being gone for the weekend sure left me a lot of reading to do.




Yup, I just tend to post lots like that, I guess   Eyros is cool, and I'm really excited about the PDF coming out.  I am a little bummed that I didn't get to write the section on Religion in Eyros (since I wrote a lot of the original details on the Religions), so I don't know how it'll turn out, so if it ever comes out and someone buys it and wants some supplementary material on Religion in Eyros, I can e-mail them some of my design notes, dogmas, and creation myths


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## Shayuri (Dec 12, 2005)

Hmm! Still recruiting? I'm always good for a good homebrew (or Planescale ) game.

As for character concepts, I have a bunch sort of pre-ready, but I always like to use characters that complement the group. Who's already playing what? That'll help guide my sword... (guide my sword, father...)


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## Rystil Arden (Dec 12, 2005)

Shayuri said:
			
		

> Hmm! Still recruiting? I'm always good for a good homebrew (or Planescale ) game.
> 
> As for character concepts, I have a bunch sort of pre-ready, but I always like to use characters that complement the group. Who's already playing what? That'll help guide my sword... (guide my sword, father...)



 I actually haven't even started recruiting yet.  I'm still in the poll stages where people are voting for their favourite campaigns.  After a few more days of polling, I may start recruiting, depending on my status with my final project and final exams (which are due and on the 20th, respectively).  After finals, I have a long long break


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## Bront (Dec 12, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> I actually haven't even started recruiting yet.  I'm still in the poll stages where people are voting for their favourite campaigns.  After a few more days of polling, I may start recruiting, depending on my status with my final project and final exams (which are due and on the 20th, respectively).  After finals, I have a long long break



I'd suggest either recruting soon, or waiting till after new years, just because of the large number of people who will between the 20th and the 1st.

Just a thought.


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## Keia (Dec 12, 2005)

Rystil,

E-mail sent!

Keia


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## Erekose13 (Dec 12, 2005)

I voted Eyros cause it sounds like an interesting setting. Didn't notice that it was multiple choice though, cause I'd have voted for pretty much anything there.  The Kiss of Darkness sounds like an interesting campaign too as would planescape or another neospelljamming game.


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## Rystil Arden (Dec 12, 2005)

Erekose13 said:
			
		

> I voted Eyros cause it sounds like an interesting setting. Didn't notice that it was multiple choice though, cause I'd have voted for pretty much anything there.  The Kiss of Darkness sounds like an interesting campaign too as would planescape or another neospelljamming game.



 Cool.  I think a lot of people also said they would have picked almost any of them as well, but at least by picking some, I get an idea of people's favourites


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## Rystil Arden (Dec 12, 2005)

Keia said:
			
		

> Rystil,
> 
> E-mail sent!
> 
> Keia



 Replied!


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## Rystil Arden (Dec 13, 2005)

Hmm...we've had a few silent votes since last time I checked, but thanks to my handy dandy open poll, I can see who they are.  I'll leave this open for a bit longer, but it looks like Kiss of Darkness wins for sure, by such a sweeping majority that it almost has two games worth of voters (and more players besides among people who only picked one option because they didn't know it was multiple choice and others)...Hmm...the last time I ran this adventure, it was with three players (though they recruited NPC allies and took cohorts eventually).  I think it will probably work with six, though, because one of the three players was a Frenzied Berserker (who could always end his Frenzies safely thanks to two Paladin of Freedom levels) and one was an Incantatrix, so they each probably held the weight of two characters 

The question remains, though, about what to do with all this enthusiastic response for that one particular game.  I'm mulling over a few different options including 

a) Just take six.  Simple, easy, straightforward.

b) Run mirrors of Kiss of Darkness
Pros: More people get to play Kiss of Darkness
Cons: I'm running two of the same game, People can try to peek

c) Run two different adventures in the world
Pros: Two different games and more people get to play
Cons: Second adventure may not be as cool as Kiss of Darkness, though my players always did like my sidequests...

d) Run Kiss of Darkness and the runner-up as an either/or for players where you can only pick one
Pros: More people get to play, more different concepts
Cons: Someone who really wanted to play Kiss of Darkness *and* the runner-up as well can only play in one, whereas if I just choose option (a) and do the runner-up later, they could play both.

e) Other--still thinking of other ideas


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## MonsterMash (Dec 13, 2005)

I voted post-Arthurian as my luv of Arthurian romance kno no limit.


Actually the homebrew sounds good too, but I've not got any great love for the published settings listed.


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## Rystil Arden (Dec 13, 2005)

MonsterMash said:
			
		

> I voted Arthurian as my luv of Arthurian romance kno no limit.
> 
> 
> Actually the homebrew sounds good too, but I've not got any great love for the published settings listed.



 Well, technically the only 'published' setting listed is Planescape, since I never published my Gestalt worlds and Eyros hasn't been published yet 

But I do admit that I also have a soft-spot for Arthurian legend and literature (pre-Mallory as well as the recent stuff, see my earlier post on the matter)


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## Nonlethal Force (Dec 13, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> a) Just take six.  Simple, easy, straightforward.




Will this option be selection through character concepts (as in we all post one and you pick the party) or will you pick the players up front and then those selected get to come up with characters?



			
				Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> b) Run mirrors of Kiss of Darkness
> Pros: More people get to play Kiss of Darkness
> Cons: I'm running two of the same game, People can try to peek




Believe it or not - that's how my Mightier than the Sword and Clutches of Evil games started out.  But they didn't last as the same game for very long ... 



			
				Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> c) Run two different adventures in the world
> Pros: Two different games and more people get to play
> Cons: Second adventure may not be as cool as Kiss of Darkness, though my players always did like my sidequests...




This is a viable option.  If you are worried about coming up with a fluid side adventure (although my understanding of your DMship is that you really have no reason to worry) you could always take the more experienced gamers and put them in the side quest so that the adventure you already have written out is with the less experienced group (allowing you to focus on getting people into PbP format) while the more experienced players will be much more forgiving - and probably even helpful - in making the "side quest" cool - as you put it.



			
				Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> d) Run Kiss of Darkness and the runner-up as an either/or for players where you can only pick one
> Pros: More people get to play, more different concepts
> Cons: Someone who really wanted to play Kiss of Darkness *and* the runner-up as well can only play in one, whereas if I just choose option (a) and do the runner-up later, they could play both.




Also viable, but since I only voted for the Homebrew it wouldn't matter as much for me... 

Personally - as if my opinion realy mattered! - if you've got the time, I like option C the best.  I would volunteer for the sidequest or the main game as you saw fit.  Of course, it is totally your game and your decision, so I'll just shut up now!

Thanks for keeping us updated.


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## Bront (Dec 13, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> b) Run mirrors of Kiss of Darkness
> Pros: More people get to play Kiss of Darkness
> Cons: I'm running two of the same game, People can try to peek
> 
> ...



These 3 are the best I think, though honestly, I would prefer D and you run a Planescape adventure for 1 of them.  You know my concept, (though for Kiss of Darkness, I'm tempted to do something similar to Mel form Scion, though not the same character or temperment, but similar skill set), and it works realy in either game.  I am just more interested in trying Planescape as something new than Kiss of Darkness (Hense why I didn't vote for Kiss).

Ultimately though, it's up to you what to do.  B means the least number of people miss out on Kiss, and I realy don't think people are going to peek in one thread to find out about the other (That's pretty cheasy, and should be fairly obvious for you to spot), especialy since one is likely to move faster than the other.

As far as how you select players, I think that if you do B or C, you just have everyone create characters, and you pair up the groups yourself.


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## Rystil Arden (Dec 13, 2005)

> Personally - as if my opinion realy mattered! - if you've got the time, I like option C the best. I would volunteer for the sidequest or the main game as you saw fit. Of course, it is totally your game and your decision, so I'll just shut up now!
> 
> Thanks for keeping us updated.




Thanks for your opinion--I actually did know that you started up your first two games as mirrors (I was peeking a bit at that recruitment thread what seems like a long time ago but didn't respond), and I've used something similar to option C in the past as well in my Twin Infinities recruiting thread


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## Rystil Arden (Dec 13, 2005)

Bront said:
			
		

> These 3 are the best I think, though honestly, I would prefer D and you run a Planescape adventure for 1 of them.  You know my concept, (though for Kiss of Darkness, I'm tempted to do something similar to Mel form Scion, though not the same character or temperment, but similar skill set), and it works realy in either game.  I am just more interested in trying Planescape as something new than Kiss of Darkness (Hense why I didn't vote for Kiss).
> 
> Ultimately though, it's up to you what to do.  B means the least number of people miss out on Kiss, and I realy don't think people are going to peek in one thread to find out about the other (That's pretty cheasy, and should be fairly obvious for you to spot), especialy since one is likely to move faster than the other.
> 
> As far as how you select players, I think that if you do B or C, you just have everyone create characters, and you pair up the groups yourself.



 Well one good thing (for Planescape lovers) about my Homebrew games is that it is rare for one of my games to not wind up going to the Planes at least a little , and I use the basic Planescape cosmology and staunchly refuse to change to the 3e specs (a pox on coterminous Astral and Ethereal planes!  Infinite and all-encompassing but never overlapping I say! )


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## Nonlethal Force (Dec 13, 2005)

Well, I have honestly never done Planescape - so that would interst me, although I didn't vote for it.  I personally love getting into other people's worlds the best - hence why I voted homebrew.  But if you do choose up a game and do "Kiss" and "Planescape" you could put me where you needed me - if you even select me at all!


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## Eluvan (Dec 14, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> Well one good thing (for Planescape lovers) about my Homebrew games is that it is rare for one of my games to not wind up going to the Planes at least a little , and I use the basic Planescape cosmology and staunchly refuse to change to the 3e specs (a pox on coterminous Astral and Ethereal planes!  Infinite and all-encompassing but never overlapping I say! )




 I want to play in one of your games. I really do.


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## Shayuri (Dec 14, 2005)

Mmm...sweet, sweet Planescape...

Though really, all those choices look pretty intriguing. Still interested!


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## Lord_Raven88 (Dec 14, 2005)

I'd be interested in whatever option you choose, also I only voted for 1 option in the poll, my second choice would be planescape, as I like the idea of travelling the planes.  I'd have to have a clueless character though, as I just don't know enough about the setting.


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## doghead (Dec 14, 2005)

If I were you, I'd go with option B. The most players for the least amount of work. And in my experience, if you ask people not to peek, most people won't. As someone said, doing so is pretty cheasy.

But if you were me you would go with D and choose the post Arthurian game cos I think it sounds really cool 

thotd


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## Rystil Arden (Dec 14, 2005)

Nonlethal Force said:
			
		

> Well, I have honestly never done Planescape - so that would interst me, although I didn't vote for it.  I personally love getting into other people's worlds the best - hence why I voted homebrew.  But if you do choose up a game and do "Kiss" and "Planescape" you could put me where you needed me - if you even select me at all!



 Well, it looks like Kiss, Planescape, and Post-Arthurian are the top three right now, so it is still a toss-up which two I would run even if I did pick option (d), but I'll keep that in mind.  What I'll likely do (no matter which option I pick) is put up a new recruiting thread for each one and have people submit concepts and then I choose between them, giving preference to people from this thread


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## Bront (Dec 14, 2005)

Cool, just give us a link when you do that 

Obviously, you may get some overlapping apps if you open 2 different threads.


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## Rystil Arden (Dec 14, 2005)

Eluvan said:
			
		

> I want to play in one of your games. I really do.



 I can tell by your enthusiasm


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## Rystil Arden (Dec 14, 2005)

Shayuri said:
			
		

> Mmm...sweet, sweet Planescape...
> 
> Though really, all those choices look pretty intriguing. Still interested!



 I hear you .  It looks like a close call here for Planescape and Post-Arthurian, so we'll see what happens


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## Rystil Arden (Dec 14, 2005)

Lord_Raven88 said:
			
		

> I'd be interested in whatever option you choose, also I only voted for 1 option in the poll, my second choice would be planescape, as I like the idea of travelling the planes.  I'd have to have a clueless character though, as I just don't know enough about the setting.



 Yes, it seems like a lot of people have that sort of feeling.  Of course, it's always fun when a non-Planescape campaign goes temporarily planar, and then they're *all* Clueless


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## Rystil Arden (Dec 14, 2005)

doghead said:
			
		

> If I were you, I'd go with option B. The most players for the least amount of work. And in my experience, if you ask people not to peek, most people won't. As someone said, doing so is pretty cheasy.
> 
> But if you were me you would go with D and choose the post Arthurian game cos I think it sounds really cool
> 
> thotd



 I agree with both of your thoughts...it is definitely going to be a tough choice for me.  Perhaps I'll come up with a good answer in a day or two, which will have allowed the poll to stay up for the week I wanted it to have


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## Rystil Arden (Dec 14, 2005)

Bront said:
			
		

> Cool, just give us a link when you do that
> 
> Obviously, you may get some overlapping apps if you open 2 different threads.



 Yup, I'll send a link, and I do expect overlapping apps if I open two--even if I have to make the call to only accept each player in one or the other, I welcome applications to both games.  If it comes to that, I'll ask each player to select their top choice to try to make it less likely that I become so fond of their application to the other game that they lose the chance to join the one they preferred


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## Manzanita (Dec 14, 2005)

I think it would be cool to run the same campaign for two groups and see how differently it goes.  You'll get this either way, I suppose since you ran Kiss of Darkness with your tabletop group.  It might be more interesting if both were pBP.  You'd just have to be sure to give them sufficiently different names so players wouldnt' be confused.


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## Rystil Arden (Dec 14, 2005)

Manzanita said:
			
		

> I think it would be cool to run the same campaign for two groups and see how differently it goes.  You'll get this either way, I suppose since you ran Kiss of Darkness with your tabletop group.  It might be more interesting if both were pBP.  You'd just have to be sure to give them sufficiently different names so players wouldnt' be confused.



 It's not a bad idea (though the other ideas each have their own appeals as well)--perhaps one of the two PbP groups will be able to successfully complete the adventure instead of giving it up as hopeless   The question for me would be whether I should have maybe four or five players per game instead of six if I run two games for speed's sake for each game.


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## Nonlethal Force (Dec 15, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> The question for me would be whether I should have maybe four or five players per game instead of six if I run two games for speed's sake for each game.




I here this comment!

To me, the difference would really be how committed the players are to posting daily.  Because there are posters who say, "Yes, I can post daily" and what they really mean is "Yes, I'll not only post multiple posts daily but I'll also have my character come up with RP things to say on my own so the other characters can post multiple posts daily, too!"  And, there are posters who say "I can post daily" and what they really mean is "I'll post daily during combat and in non-combat I'll only post when directly spoken to and never ever come up with my own creative thing to say."   Of course, I over-exaggerate on both extremes!  But a party of six of the first type would easily be a quick moving game.  A party of six of the second type or even three of each type would definately slow the game down.

But, unfortunately there is no way to know for sure until the game starts, in my own opinion.  I'm sure whatever you decide will work out.  Your other games don't seem to have a problem moving along - so you're obviously doing something right!


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## Rystil Arden (Dec 15, 2005)

Nonlethal Force said:
			
		

> I here this comment!
> 
> To me, the difference would really be how committed the players are to posting daily.  Because there are posters who say, "Yes, I can post daily" and what they really mean is "Yes, I'll not only post multiple posts daily but I'll also have my character come up with RP things to say on my own so the other characters can post multiple posts daily, too!"  And, there are posters who say "I can post daily" and what they really mean is "I'll post daily during combat and in non-combat I'll only post when directly spoken to and never ever come up with my own creative thing to say."   Of course, I over-exaggerate on both extremes!  But a party of six of the first type would easily be a quick moving game.  A party of six of the second type or even three of each type would definately slow the game down.
> 
> But, unfortunately there is no way to know for sure until the game starts, in my own opinion.  I'm sure whatever you decide will work out.  Your other games don't seem to have a problem moving along - so you're obviously doing something right!



 Yes, I totally agree about the different types of posters and how it will make a big difference on posting speed and interaction.  I hope it will work out


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## Mouseferatu (Dec 15, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> Eyros:  Eyros is a setting designed by ENWorlders, including me, that will be published some day by Lion's Den (I would mention the name of the game designer who is helping to edit it, but then he would have to check this thread when he searches for his name, so I'll just say he's a rodent vampire .




Bah! You cannot escape the Eye of Mouseferatu so easily! Mouseferatu sees all! Ia! Ia! Mouseferatu ftagn!

Ahem. Sorry.

I don't want to make any promises, but I'm wrapping up some ongoing projects right now. I've got my next WotC gig lined up, but I don't know when it officially starts. I _might_ have time to _finally_ get Eyros done before it kicks in.

Again, though, no promises. Just keep your fingers crossed that things go as I hope they will.


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## Rystil Arden (Dec 15, 2005)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> Bah! You cannot escape the Eye of Mouseferatu so easily! Mouseferatu sees all! Ia! Ia! Mouseferatu ftagn!
> 
> Ahem. Sorry.
> 
> ...



 Curses, you found me again!   Must've searched Eyros this time :grumble: 

Cool, I'm glad to hear things are going well with the freelancing and that Eyros might be in the works.  Good luck!

EDIT: On second thought, I think it was probably Lion's Den that did it


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## Rystil Arden (Dec 15, 2005)

Guess what thread is up?

That's right--it's the KoD (no, not Knife of Dreams!  Kiss of Darkness) recruitment thread.  

But this poll is not over yet!  It is still neck-and-neck for second place.  Who will win out?  Only time will tell


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## Rystil Arden (Dec 15, 2005)

Ooh, looks like Eyros gets another vote to tie it up with Post-Arthurian and Planescape.  Must've been the celebrity spotlight from Mousefer...Oops, I mean, I didn't say anything


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## Erekose13 (Dec 15, 2005)

If you add all the unique voters for the two Eyros campaign ideas its way ahead at 11


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## Rystil Arden (Dec 15, 2005)

Erekose13 said:
			
		

> If you add all the unique voters for the two Eyros campaign ideas its way ahead at 11



 That's quite true.  The trouble is that the pirates and non-pirates are rather mutually exclusive (even I had trouble getting a group with pirates and non-pirates together, so eventually we decided to split them up into pirates and non-pirates  )


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## doghead (Dec 17, 2005)

Damn. That KoD thread just took off. Up for three days and pushing 300 posts.

Looks like you have a live one.

thotd.


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## Rystil Arden (Dec 17, 2005)

doghead said:
			
		

> Damn. That KoD thread just took off. Up for three days and pushing 300 posts.
> 
> Looks like you have a live one.
> 
> thotd.



 Yup, it's crazy fast, but that's partially because there are so many different posters who are posting to it


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## Angel Tarragon (Dec 18, 2005)

Something Else: Ravenloft!


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## Bront (Dec 18, 2005)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> Something Else: Ravenloft!



You missed it, the game he's running already has 11 pages in the recruitment thread (and it's only been there for 2 days, if that).

That would be interesting though.


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## Erekose13 (Dec 18, 2005)

RA are you still thinking of running one of the other choises in the future? or are the two KoD threads going to keep you busy?


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## Rystil Arden (Dec 18, 2005)

Erekose13 said:
			
		

> RA are you still thinking of running one of the other choises in the future? or are the two KoD threads going to keep you busy?



 Still thinking of the other choices.  If not immediately, they will at least be where I go to recruiting next.  Basically, my games seem to go in a cycle:  Lots of activity starting up.  Then lots of activity getting characters together.  Then speed slows to a highly manageable pace.  Once that happens, I can add another game.


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## Nonlethal Force (Dec 19, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> Still thinking of the other choices.  If not immediately, they will at least be where I go to recruiting next.  Basically, my games seem to go in a cycle:  Lots of activity starting up.  Then lots of activity getting characters together.  Then speed slows to a highly manageable pace.  Once that happens, I can add another game.




You're not alone in this ... I think every game goes this way.  Flurry of activity in the first two weeks ... game becomes maneagable after that!


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## Rystil Arden (Dec 19, 2005)

Nonlethal Force said:
			
		

> You're not alone in this ... I think every game goes this way.  Flurry of activity in the first two weeks ... game becomes maneagable after that!



 Exactly


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## Brother Shatterstone (Dec 19, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> Exactly



 So is this thread done then?  

BS 
PbP Mod

aka would you like me to close it?


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## Rystil Arden (Dec 19, 2005)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> So is this thread done then?
> 
> BS
> PbP Mod
> ...



 No (See post 113)


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## Brother Shatterstone (Dec 19, 2005)

See it.  You don't really plan to keep this thread up front and center for the next few weekd do you?


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## Rystil Arden (Dec 19, 2005)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> See it.  You don't really plan to keep this thread up front and center for the next few weekd do you?



 Well, only if you keep bumping it   My plan was to leave it open and then bump it myself when I'm ready, thus keeping the votes so far.  That's what happens to most other threads (that don't go over the limit)--they stay open and then fall to the later pages.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Dec 19, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> My plan was to leave it open and then bump it myself when I'm ready, thus keeping the votes so far.




Cool.  Have fun. 



			
				Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> That's what happens to most other threads (that don't go over the limit)--they stay open and then fall to the later pages.



Thanks, I had no idea what happened to an inactive thread…    



			
				Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> Well, only if you keep bumping it..




I believe I am done now.


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