# Considering abridging the fire forest.  Thoughts?



## UnknownAtThisTime (Dec 2, 2010)

First, I am well aware from reading many posts in the forum that The Fire Forest is a consensus pick as one of the better pieces of work in the campaign arc, and I don't mean to diminish it's quality in the least.   However, (for more than one reason) I am considering streamlining the adventure and chopping it significantly, perhaps runnign it as 30% - 40% of it's current content.

I read it a few weeks ago, and plan to review it again this weekend to make a decision on "if and how much" to try and condense it.  Before I do that, does anyone have specific experience or suggestions on what to remove that will have the least long term impact on the campaign.  As an example, I intend to remove the Dragonborn Sorcerer entirely and don't intend the party to be hunting for mushrooms.  If it matters, the party is unlikely to have Torrent when they step in to the fire forest, but they do have Haddin and Crystin (for now).

Any input is appreciated.


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## Morrus (Dec 2, 2010)

Well, the biggest issue you'll find is that you won't have enough XP left to level the characters appropriately for the 3rd adventure - unless you plan to just give the players a free boost.


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## UnknownAtThisTime (Dec 2, 2010)

Morrus said:


> Well, the biggest issue you'll find is that you won't have enough XP left to level the characters appropriately for the 3rd adventure - unless you plan to just give the players a free boost.




Two mitigations:

They are slightly ahead on XP
I have a side delve already identified if needed


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## OnlineDM (Dec 2, 2010)

I agree that it could be abridged without causing too many problems (except, as Morrus points out, getting the XP right for the next adventure.  The party that I'm running through the War of the Burning Sky is just about to finish the Fire Forest module, and I agree that while it's an excellent adventure it could certainly be streamlined if you wished.

There are several encounters that don't really do anything for the story except give you a flavor for what has happened to the creatures of the forest (the rekindling and so on).  You could cut all of these and lose very little of the story (though you would lose some of the Fire Forest's flavor).

Some SPOILERS AHEAD.

If you want to streamline things as much as possible, and if your party decides that it wants to help the seela, you could run just the following:


A Cool Cave (page 6) - still optional if you don't care about backstory
Fiery Howl (page 51)
Infernal Harrier (page 52)
Indomitability's Offer (page 12)
Run A Ghastly Shrine (page 64), putting the journal and the dream seeds from the bridge fort in the shrine.
Kazyk's Offer (page 19)
Fey Save (page 76)
Gathering Information (page 24)
Shrine of Love (page 78)
Timbre (page 80) and Timbre's Ear (page 29)
The Stag / Rampage (page 85-86)
This cuts out all of the miscellaneous forest combats (Unnatural Hunt, Dangerous Crossing, Village Wanderers), everything associated with Khadral, the Bridge Fort, the revisit to Khadral's area, Nelle, the White River skill challenge (you can hand wave a walk along the river to the seela village), Fire Curtain (assuming the party goes straight for the village), and the encounters associated with Vuhl's path.

If I were doing this adventure again, I would probably only run one of the miscellaneous forest encounters (probably Dangerous Crossing).  I would still include Khadral and the dryad, as that ended up being an interesting time for the party, but I might not bother with the mushrooms and certainly not the return to Khadral (we've ended up not running the return anyway, as the party had already buried the remains of the Solei Palancis soldier and thus had no reason to go back to Khadral).  I haven't ended up using Nelle at all, and I'm fine with that.  The Bridge Fort ended up being kind of entertaining - that mace trap had fun beating up on some of my players - but it would be fine to cut it if the information inside were made available later.


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## Skyscraper (Dec 3, 2010)

My players are discussing how to reach Seaquen right now and they're not leaning towards the Fire Forest. I'm going to let them chose their path freely and it looks likely that they'll try to go through Shahalesti and reach Seaquen by boat.

I've started to think about what I could do to make the journey interesting. I have a few ideas hanging, but in essence I'll probably have the boat stop short of Seaquen as the captain realizes in some way the threat of a nearby fleet (the Shahalesti that will come up in adventure #3 anyway). I think I'll have them move along the coast by other means then, and have one inquisitor on their heals the entire way. This inquisitor may well be alone, I'm not sure yet, but if so he'll hire who he can to stop the PCs from reaching Seaquen and delivering the case. With this in mind, you could design some encounters around that, making the inquisitor a recurring vilain for the PCs as the move out of the Fire Forest and towards Seaquen, to add encounters to those already proposed.


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## Truename (Dec 4, 2010)

UnknownAtThisTime said:


> I read it a few weeks ago, and plan to review it again this weekend to make a decision on "if and how much" to try and condense it. Before I do that, does anyone have specific experience or suggestions on what to remove that will have the least long term impact on the campaign.




SPOILERS, of course.

My players are entering the third act of this adventure now, so I've been studying it fairly carefully. It's a complex adventure, but I'm really enjoying it. As I see it, there are four main threads and two batches of filler:

Main threads:
* Who started the fire?
* Why is it still burning?
* How will we escape the forest?
* How will we escape our pursuers?

Filler:
* Fire Forest atmosphere
* Khadral

I think the interplay between the main threads is what makes the adventure interesting, but if you wanted to cut something, I think cutting whole threads might be the way to go.

Here's more detail on each thread.

"Fire forest atmosphere" encounters. These are the easiest to cut, but I'd keep one (probably Dangerous Crossing) just to introduce the forest.

- Ending Suffering (p7)
- An Unnatural Hunt (p7)
- Dangerous Crossing (p7)
- Searching the Ruins (p15)
- A Ghastly Shrine (p15)
- Exploring the White River (p17)

"Who started the fire?" encounters. This is the central mystery of the adventure, and the answer to this question has major plot implications--it could change the way the heroes view certain NPCs. That said, you could cut this whole thread. If you keep the thread, I'd suggest keeping all of the encounters because of the Three Clue Rule. My players still haven't figured it out, and they've gathered all the clues.

- A Cool Cave (p8)
- The Bridge-Fort (p13)
- Under the Shrine (p16)
- Flintrock Cavern (p10)

"Why is it still burning?" encounters. This thread is part of the central conflict of the adventure, and the answer to this question introduces an important faction.

- Trial by Fire & Indomitability's Offer (p12)
- The Mouth [sic] of the White River (p18)
- Dryad Burning Bright (p29)

"How will we escape the forest?" encounters. This is the central conflict of the adventure, so I don't think you should cut it. You might be able to trim it down slightly. (Keep in mind that the players won't hit every single encounter, based on their choices.)

- The Reliquary (p16)
- Beyond the Village (p17)
- The Trouble with Tiljann (p20)
- The Lake / Seela Village (p23)
- Deceptive Alliance (p26)
- The Legend of Anyariel (p27)
- Shrine of Love (p27)
- Dryad Burning Bright (p29)
- Silencing the Song (p30)
- Lake Diving (p30)

"How will we escape our pursuers?" encounters. You could cut this pretty easily, although "Kazyk's Offer" nicely highlights the moral conflict contained in the "How will we escape" thread.

- Devil Looking Over Your Shoulder (p8)
- Infernal Harrier (p9)
- Kazyk's Offer (p19)

"Khadral" encounters. These don't add anything, plot-wise, and can easily be cut. However, the first encounter in this thread supports the "Flintrock Cavern" encounter, which is part of the "Who started the fire?" thread, so you might need to find another way to tie that encounter in.

- The Dragonborn Sorceror (p9)
- The Ritual (p11)
- Rescuing Khadral (p12)
- Cavern's Return (p17)
- The Misty Room (p17)


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## OnlineDM (Dec 4, 2010)

MORE SPOILERS AHEAD

I wanted to jump in to say that I just finished running my online party through the encounter with Gwenvere, and I have a suggestion:

Make Gwenvere scarier.

If the party decides it just wants to wade in and attack the hag without trying to parley or anything, she attacks them.  Fair enough, but they're a party of five 6th-level adventurers and she's a single regular 8th-level creature.  She either needs allies to summon, or she needs to be something like a solo (or at least an elite).  I think summoning aquatic allies to her aid would be the most flavorful way to go.

Note that I only make this suggestion in the case where the party tries to fight her.  If they turn her into an ally and convince her to support them in their fight against Indomitability later, for instance, you don't want her taking out the bad guys on her own.  But if the party wants a fight, give them a meaningful fight!


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## Bercilak (Dec 7, 2010)

SPOILER
Although I'm not entirely sure the overall role of Khadral, his final actions in the Fire Forest are picked up as part of the flavor text in Adventure 4. An NPC has met Khadral in his dreams and can tell the players more about the trilliths.

Although, overall, I wish I had cut more from the Fire Forest adventure. I think I could have cut a couple of the fights that establish the flavor of the forest down to very easy encounters. (But I've also gone to just telling the PCs when they level up as the adventures dictate rather than counting XP. I got tired of the fights/challenges that seem to exist only to provide XP.)
-Berc


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## Fox Lee (Dec 20, 2010)

UnknownAtThisTime said:


> First, I am well aware from reading many posts in the forum that The Fire Forest is a consensus pick as one of the better pieces of work in the campaign arc, and I don't mean to diminish it's quality in the least.



Really? This is kind of surprising to me (that it would be tha fan favourite, that is)... Fire Forest isn't too bad, sure, and its "immortal bonfire" concept is both tremendously dramatic and thoroughly unique. But I found the story rather convoluted and lacking direction.

I also thought the mechanics (speaking stricly 4e here) weren't as tight as those of Scouring, and in many places it was a bit too obvious that they had been converted from 3.5 (one passage still indicates that players can forgo a saving throw against an effect... whoops ).

I'm not saying it sucks, just that it didn't cause me the same enjoyment and enthusiasm as the first.

[SPOILERS BELOW]



> As an example, I intend to remove the Dragonborn Sorcerer entirely and don't intend the party to be hunting for mushrooms.



I do believe this is the best part to remove. Khadral is quite a likeable character, but his arc seems almost like a distraction from the real plot, and the conclusion of the arc is really rather de-protagonising for the PCs. Nothing bothers me more in a module than a sacrifice which the PCs cannot somehow avert, or at least influence somehow, and I know my players feel the same way (in fact, I bounced it off some of them as a hypothetical, and the response was very negative).

I also found the dryad/children/ritual encounter confusing. How were the spellcasting PCs supposed to be helping Khadral? Was the trap deliberately designed to catch the PCS least able to deal with strength checks of grappling, who would only be there for flavour reasons to start with? That's kind of a dick move. And is the party then supposed to be missing members during the "Save the Children" skill challenge? It all came across as a bit "whu?" to me. Plus, the excuse given that the children couldn't be put in a safe place _before_ the ritual seemed rather weak to me.

Depending on what you want to take out, you could easily skip the devil and his offer. Not a good idea if you want to preserve the three-way choice, but if your players are like mine and you totally know they are going to take the "hero" path, it would be safe to get rid him. You could also shortcut around Gwenvere altogether if you don't mind losing the love triangle, and/or ignore Nelle the unicorn if your players can get by without his information/aid. Going withough the river-travel skill challenge might cut out a lot of time, depending on how the players approach it; likewise, I don't think the traps add a lot to areas like the bridge fort, so you could also remove them to speed up play.


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## RangerWickett (Dec 20, 2010)

In my opinion, the core of the adventure is the devil-indomitability question (who to ally with?), and the deception-gwenvere-timbre options of how to save the day. The rest is less key.


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## Fox Lee (Dec 24, 2010)

RangerWickett said:


> In my opinion, the core of the adventure is the devil-indomitability question (who to ally with?), and the deception-gwenvere-timbre options of how to save the day. The rest is less key.



To clarify, I did suggest leaving those out only because I know some groups will be unambiguously good-aligned, like mine. There's no chance they will side with anybody but Tiljann unless I deliberately fool them about the outcomes -  ditto with killing Timbre - so those turn from important moral choices into relatively minor notes of character reinforcement.

I did play with Kazyk a lot, trying to make him less evil and more appealing to the group. It won't get them to side with him in the forest (seriously, my group are HEROES(tm)), but I reckon I can get them to kind of like him, and give them a chance to work with him without compromising.


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