# Why shouldn't you run away from the cops when falsely accused?



## Janx (Mar 8, 2012)

A new topic, ripped straight from the forums.

The situation:
you've been falsely accused of a crime.  The cops have just shown up to arrest you.  Should you stay or run for it?

Try to consider the question from both real world and "as fiction" perspectives as I think the answer can vary for what makes sense in the real world vs. a fiction (like a story or RPG).

I see the basic foundation of the why you should stay argument being that if you run, you look guilty (and technically may also be resisting arrest).

However, the oft unstated counter argument is that if the authorities are so inept or corrupt as to move forward on false information to authorize an arrest, what kind of justice are you really expecting to see?  You're basically looking at spending time in the local jail and then prison where as a non-hardened criminal, you can expect to get shanked, bubba'd or infected with something.

In the real world, you probably need to cooperate.  Cops have bullets and nothing's immune to bullets.  You might have to weigh that choice on the overall corruptness of the local government (that is, do you live in a place where everybody knows the cops are crooked).  Plus, hopefully going in is just an interview and release.  Otherwise, you'll need to become the next Pancho Villa and head for the hills as a new resistance fighter.

In fiction, the protagonist seldom accepts arrest.  He always runs and fights to clear his name.  The story would suck if "Harry Potter turned himself in to the Dementors and spent the rest of his days rotting in Azkaban."

America was founded on the principal that we don't tolerate wrongful searches, siezures, detentions and arrests.  It's actually mind-boggling to see that we've now moved to "if he ran, he must be guilty" when our cultural background says "if he ran, it's because the authorities were wrong!"


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## jonesy (Mar 8, 2012)

The counters I immediately thought of were:

- How do you know you're the only suspect?
- How do you know they've already decided you're guilty, instead of just arresting you to question you?
- How do you even know you're a suspect at all. Maybe they're simply there to bring you in for questioning. Maybe they think you're a key witness?


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## Elf Witch (Mar 8, 2012)

In real life running is just stupid because you have now broken the law and you resisted arrest which is a crime. So if you were innocent before you are now guilty of a crime.

In fiction it really depends on the setting. In a modern setting I think it would depend on the laws. In a Shadowrun game I ran from Lonestar once. The consequence for getting arrested  was something my mage was not willing to face. My character had taken the flaw claustrophobia especially if anything was put over her head. The way they control mages is to put a tight fighting hood over their heads. 

Also since my character was simless being arrested was a bad thing. For my character it made sense to try and run. Being on the lam was not going to change my runner lifestyle in anyway.

In a fantasy setting I think it depends on several things. Are you willing to never come back to the area.  Do you mind having a possible price on your head. How does the rest of the party feel about it. 

I think running is usually a poor choice unless you know that the law is corrupt and you don't stand a chance of being treated fairly.


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## Crothian (Mar 8, 2012)

Janx said:


> America was founded on the principal that we don't tolerate wrongful searches, siezures, detentions and arrests.  It's actually mind-boggling to see that we've now moved to "if he ran, he must be guilty" when our cultural background says "if he ran, it's because the authorities were wrong!"




I don't think that was ever the case.  

I would not run because I'd get caught.  I don't have a place that to hide out that they couldn't find.  They'd talk to my friends and family and they would soon learn my tendencies.  I don't have enough fast cash hidden away to get me out of here unnoticed.


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## frankthedm (Mar 8, 2012)

Janx said:


> The situation:
> you've been falsely accused of a crime.  The cops have just shown up to arrest you.  Should you stay or run for it?



Stay and fight if they don't have a warrant.


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## delericho (Mar 8, 2012)

Janx said:


> A new topic, ripped straight from the forums.
> 
> The situation:
> you've been falsely accused of a crime.  The cops have just shown up to arrest you.  Should you stay or run for it?
> ...




In real life, you have to stay, hard as that may be. Running makes you look guilty, and also cuts you off from any and all mechanisms that might be able to help you.

In an RPG, it really depends on the setting. But in most cases my character would run - the game is almost always more fun that way.


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## Umbran (Mar 8, 2012)

Janx said:


> America was founded on the principal that we don't tolerate wrongful searches, siezures, detentions and arrests.




Note that "wrongful arrest" is not "I'm not guilty".  It is "I'm not guilty, and you darned well knew it!"  Same for searches and seizures.  

Here's the thing: you want to run if you are accused, but you know you are innocent.  So, what you really want is for them to _only arrest the guilty_, right?  How is that possible?  That means they'd have to actually determine guilt or innocence before arrest, _in absentia_.  So, the accused would not be present for trial, and would have no opportunity to defend themselves.

Does that sound like a good idea?  I didn't think so.

Having some innocent people arrested and put through the process is one of the prices of getting those who do harm out of the way of law-abiding citizens.  The other alternatives are 1) having guilt determined _in absentia_, 2) not dealing with criminals at all, or 3) living outside the society of humankind.  Take your pick.

Whether or not it makes sense to run in your fantasy world depends on the world/state in question.  If the government is well-known for incarcerating people without fair trial, then running may make some sense.  

In a game, if you know the authorities are actually fair, but you've been framed or the circumstances make it look really bad for you, running may make some sense, if only because "The Fugitive" style prove-your-innocence-on-the-run stories can be fun.


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## Ahnehnois (Mar 8, 2012)

In a real scenario, situational factors are very important.

For example, if a police officer comes to the door of your house ith a warrant to arrest you for a crime you didn't commit, you should probably cooperate, and call a lawyer.

If you are a member of a commonly targeted demographic group and are walking down the street at night doing nothing illegal, and you hear sirens, you should probably run and hide.

There is not much point in trying to actively resist law enforcement, but you do want to avoid encountering them if at all possible. There are only two likely outcomes to such an encounter: either nothing happens or something bad happens. The risk-benefit of trying to deal with the police falls heavily on the risk side, and I would caution anyone who expects to be treated fairly by law enforcement that this may not happen.

In most fictional scenarios, it definitely won't happen, which is why the heroes always resist.


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## Agamon (Mar 8, 2012)

Advice is nice, but you probably shouldn't be posting here, Janx.  They can trace your IP.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Mar 8, 2012)

In fiction: run.  Run every time...as long as you actually have a chance to do so.*  Better narrative.

IRL: stay.  Always stay unless you are in a broken state (see Syria, Iron Curtain-era Czechoslovakia, etc.), because your odds of exoneration go up when you don't make the investigators more convinced of your guilt by fleeing.











* Do not run if you are staring down the smoking barrel of the Arch-Warden's Staff of Awesome just after he incinerated a 2000 year old oak as a warning shot.


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## Spatula (Mar 8, 2012)

The protagonist almost always runs in fiction, because the alternative is the protagonist being robbed of his/her agency, and sitting in a room while other characters do the interesting stuff. The only examples I can think of is when the protagonists are just brought in for questioning and pick up some clue or potential alliance while at the station. Or they're arrested and then escape right away. Or being in jail _is_ the story.

In real life of course you'd want to go with the police while being as non-threatening as possible. Not that injustices don't happen, but the system will really destroy you otherwise. And cops don't get punished for shooting someone they thought was dangerous, innocent or not. At least not in the US.


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## jonesy (Mar 8, 2012)

Spatula said:


> The protagonist almost always runs in fiction, because the alternative is the protagonist being robbed of his/her agency, and sitting in a room while other characters do the interesting stuff.



And in those stories the real protagonist is usually a family member, a friend, a lawyer, a private eye, one of the cops, a crime solving doctor, a guy who gets a paper every morning that tells him what happens in the future, a guy who reads minds, someone who just happened to be there and saw he wasn't guilty, a vampire slayer, a time traveller, a..


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## El Mahdi (Mar 8, 2012)

It would depend almost entirely on what information I had available to me (about the situation) at the time.


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## gamerprinter (Mar 8, 2012)

Depending on the situation, and the game - if you run, you might get shot. Getting shot, especially if you're innocent is not a worthy death. I'd say go ahead and arrest me, and hopefully my innocence will be proven, and that I have a competent attorney.

Now if you're an escaped slave in the deep south before the Civil War, a Jew in Nazi Germany and other similar situations. Run! Getting shot, might be a relief versus getting caught on the run...


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## Janx (Mar 8, 2012)

jonesy said:


> And in those stories the real protagonist is usually a family member, a friend, a lawyer, a private eye, one of the cops, a crime solving doctor, a guy who gets a paper every morning that tells him what happens in the future, a guy who reads minds, someone who just happened to be there and saw he wasn't guilty, a vampire slayer, a time traveller, a..




Important thing to note: if you get arrested and spend the entire time sitting in jail while somebody else works on getting you out, then you are NOT the protagonist.

Great answers so far.  Thus far the common wisdom is "in real life, don't run" and "in fiction, almost always run"

One new idea I just had on why the two are different is that in real life (ex. living in the the U.S right now) there's a decent justice system (better than some places).  In fiction, these stories are almost always about a BAD justice system.  Thus, in even in a story based in the U.S. it'll feature crooked cops or hacked legal systems that frame the protagonist.

I suspect that there are fewer "framed" crimes in real life in the US than in fiction (as a ratio of crime stories/actual incidents).  Note I would differentiate between crappy justice (let's blame this Elf for that crime, because we know an Elf did it and all Elves look alike) versus an actual setup (let's get [MENTION=177]Umbran[/MENTION]'s fingerprints on the tire iron and alter the logs so it shows his IP address).


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## Dioltach (Mar 8, 2012)

Where I live, in the Netherlands, chances are you'd never get arrested -- rightly or wrongly -- or, if you were, the case would never go to court. Apparently 60% of all incidents in the Netherlands never gets referred to the public prosecutor. And only 50,000 cases out of 800,000 (total number of incidents per year) lead to convictions.


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## Janx (Mar 8, 2012)

Dioltach said:


> Where I live, in the Netherlands, chances are you'd never get arrested -- rightly or wrongly -- or, if you were, the case would never go to court. Apparently 60% of all incidents in the Netherlands never gets referred to the public prosecutor. And only 50,000 cases out of 800,000 (total number of incidents per year) lead to convictions.




So people report crimes, but the cops don't follow-up or successfully identify a likely suspect to bring as a case?


That reminds me of the story I saw in the Freakonomics documentary about Japan's murder rate.  They had a great murder conviction rate because they didn't classify "hard to solve" cases as murders.  Apparently that fell apart with some famous Sumo guy got murdered and they pooched it.


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## JRRNeiklot (Mar 8, 2012)

Elf Witch said:


> In real life running is just stupid because you have now broken the law and you resisted arrest which is a crime. So if you were innocent before you are now guilty of a crime.




Actually, resisting a wrongful arrest is not a crime.  Caveat - you don't have to be guilty to be arrested.  But happening to be on the street when the store was robbed is no justification for an arrest.


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## Umbran (Mar 8, 2012)

JRRNeiklot said:


> Actually, resisting a wrongful arrest is not a crime.  Caveat - you don't have to be guilty to be arrested.  But happening to be on the street when the store was robbed is no justification for an arrest.




Resisting by running might be okay, but resisting through violence probably won't be tolerated by the cops or the courts, wrongful or otherwise.

Whether the arrest will be seen as justified will depend on the details, not the generalities - do the cops have "reasonable" basis for suspicion?  The rules of evidence for arrest are really, really loose, and unless the officer had clear knowledge that you were innocent of the crime, it probably won't be counted as "wrongful arrest" either.


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## Janx (Mar 8, 2012)

Umbran said:


> Resisting by running might be okay, but resisting through violence probably won't be tolerated by the cops or the courts, wrongful or otherwise.
> 
> Whether the arrest will be seen as justified will depend on the details, not the generalities - do the cops have "reasonable" basis for suspicion?  The rules of evidence for arrest are really, really loose, and unless the officer had clear knowledge that you were innocent of the crime, it probably won't be counted as "wrongful arrest" either.




True, the details probably matter.  As do the specifics of how/why the cops are approaching you.

Asking you to come downtown for some questions doesn't sound like an arrest.

Getting pulled over for speeding and having your license examined and called in is not an arrest either.

Having a cop yell "Freeze!  You're under arrest!" when he first sees you because he has an APB that says you are a wanted murderer is probably an arrest.

I have no clue if "running from a wrongful arrest" is truly protected.  Say the cops have an APB that says you're evil twin just robbed a bank.  The cop sees you and moves to arrest on sight (as in cuff and return to base for a cookie).  The cops have the wrong man, but don't know it.  Is it legal to run?

If you run and they catch you and take you to the judge and your court assigned defendant correctly demonstrates that your fingerprints don't match, will the judge still be mad at you that you ran and punish you in a legal way?


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## Mark CMG (Mar 8, 2012)

Janx said:


> Why shouldn't you run away from the cops when falsely accused?





Ranged weapons.


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## Elf Witch (Mar 8, 2012)

JRRNeiklot said:


> Actually, resisting a wrongful arrest is not a crime.  Caveat - you don't have to be guilty to be arrested.  But happening to be on the street when the store was robbed is no justification for an arrest.




No it is not. But if the police come to take you down to the station and you run that is resiting arrest and a crime. And they can prosecute you for that if they choose even if they don't charge for the crime they came to arrest you for in the first place.

If you mouth off at the police officer outside the store and refuse to answer questions or show ID when asked you may find your self slapped in cuffs for obstruction.


In real life it pays to cooperate politely with law enforcement. Though if you are formally questioned for a crime always always ask for an attorney to be present.


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## Kaodi (Mar 8, 2012)

I can imagine that if the crime in question is the murder of a cop, you are definitely going to be shot at if you run, but co-operation could still lead to completely atrocious behaviour by cops and security guards, depending on how sketchy the local justice system is.


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## JRRNeiklot (Mar 9, 2012)

The law varies by state, but you generally have the right to resist unlawful arrests.  Without reasonable suspicion, an arrest cannot be made.

“An illegal arrest is an assault and battery. The person so attempted to be restrained of his liberty has the same right to use force in defending himself as he would in repelling any other assault and battery.” (State v. Robinson, 145 ME. 77, 72 ATL. 260).

“Each person has the right to resist an unlawful arrest. In such a case, the person attempting the arrest stands in the position of a wrongdoer and may be resisted by the use of force, as in self- defense.” (State v. Mobley, 240 N.C. 476, 83 S.E. 2d 100).

“One may come to the aid of another being unlawfully arrested, just as he may where one is being assaulted, molested, raped or kidnapped. Thus it is not an offense to liberate one from the unlawful custody of an officer, even though he may have submitted to such custody, without resistance.” (Adams v. State, 121 Ga. 16, 48 S.E. 910).


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## trancejeremy (Mar 9, 2012)

Bear in mind, laws are pretty much only valid if you happen to have a lawyer present. Otherwise it's your word vs the police, and who are the courts going to believe?

I had my place raided by police for drugs several years ago. (I have allergies, so apparently they though I ran a meth lab on two packs of Actifed a month). 

They detained me outside in the rain and wouldn't let me go back inside unless I consented to a search. They also threatened to shoot my dogs. So of course, on record, I consented to the search, but they forced me to do it.

And that's not even my worse experience with police...

Not to delve too much into politics, but the US has the most people in jail per capita in the world. No one is even remotely close. If you really think police care too much about who they put away, you're kidding yourself.


And beyond that, the site of people in body armor and heavy weapons glaring at you suspiciously really does kick in the Fight or Flight instinct. And then of course, they always ask, "If you have nothing to hide, why are you so nervous?" 

Yeah, a dozen people in body armor on your porch bristling with weaponry is a comforting sight. And a helicopter circling overhead.


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## Kzach (Mar 9, 2012)

On the one hand, I've been falsely accused of a serious crime and it ruined my life. I had to leave school because of it and ended up hated by an entire school and faculty. So that would definitely be playing through my mind as a fear should I be falsely accused of something.

On the other hand, I'm an avid watcher of COPS, and every time someone runs I'm like, "You dumb pooh-head! They ALWAYS catch up! And then they taser your arse!"

So... umm... not sure, to be honest.


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## Jhaelen (Mar 9, 2012)

Janx said:


> The situation:
> you've been falsely accused of a crime.  The cops have just shown up to arrest you.  Should you stay or run for it?



The real world answer is easy (in most areas of the world - for exceptions, see below): Don't even think about resisting arrest.



Janx said:


> However, the oft unstated counter argument is that if the authorities are so inept or corrupt as to move forward on false information to authorize an arrest, what kind of justice are you really expecting to see?



If you truly believe that, why are you still in that country?

There are certainly countries in which allowing yourself to get arrested may be as bad as trying to resist arrest, but luckily I don't live in one.

The answer for roleplaying games depends on the kind of setting/gameplay: In your typical (super-)heroic D&D setting, the 'authorities' are (or will soon become) pushovers for the protagonists, so there's little risk involved in resisting them.

However, unless the 'heroes' are currently in a corrupt (or evil) country it may still be a bad idea. Overthrowing corrupt/evil countries, however, is one of the popular tropes of stories/rpg games.


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## Kaodi (Mar 9, 2012)

trancejeremy said:


> Not to delve too much into politics, but the US has the most people in jail per capita in the world. No one is even remotely close. If you really think police care too much about who they put away, you're kidding yourself.




Though it is only anecdotal evidence, I met a cop once who told me that it was not the job of the police to care whether a person was guilty or not. That was " the judges' job " . Needless to say, I find it a lot easier to understand why police brutality is so prevalent now. 

This was in Canada, but I doubt that police culture, when you get down to essential elements, is that different in the two countries.


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## Janx (Mar 9, 2012)

Jhaelen said:


> If you truly believe that, why are you still in that country?
> 
> There are certainly countries in which allowing yourself to get arrested may be as bad as trying to resist arrest, but luckily I don't live in one.




If a person is being arrested (not just questioned) under a false cause, there ahs been a breakdown in the system.  it might be local (crooked or stupid law enforcement) or it might be systemic.  Either way, once it starts, there's no Perry Mason or Mattlock to come save your butt.

Until it happens to you, I suspect it's not a concern that reaches high enough on the "I gotta move out of this place" scale.

that said, there are plenty of countries with worse legal systems (true for everybody who doesn't live in the WORST place, but they probably don't have internet).  I think that would be a question for them.  Why do they remain in CrappyLand?  I suspect it's not a simple problem.


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## Elf Witch (Mar 9, 2012)

JRRNeiklot said:


> The law varies by state, but you generally have the right to resist unlawful arrests.  Without reasonable suspicion, an arrest cannot be made.
> 
> “An illegal arrest is an assault and battery. The person so attempted to be restrained of his liberty has the same right to use force in defending himself as he would in repelling any other assault and battery.” (State v. Robinson, 145 ME. 77, 72 ATL. 260).
> 
> ...




The thing is reasonable suspicion can mean a lot of things. 

If someone accuses you of a crime that is reasonable suspicion.

 If you were a witness to a crime and refuse to cooperate by even giving the cop your name you can be charged with obstruction. If you lie to a cop during an investigation you can be charged for that.

It is the same as searching your car without a warrant if a cop has probable cause he can search it. Probable cause can be he smelled pot.

for the most part cops just don't go around arresting people just out of the blue. 

Unless you live in a country where getting arrested mean no justice what so ever you should not run or resist even if you are innocent. The law in the long run maybe on your side but is it worth the possibility of being roughed  up, tasered, pepper sprayed or even shot? 

Let them arrest you demand an attorney and then sue for wrongful arrest.


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## Cor Azer (Mar 9, 2012)

Kaodi said:


> Though it is only anecdotal evidence, I met a cop once who told me that it was not the job of the police to care whether a person was guilty or not. That was " the judges' job " . Needless to say, I find it a lot easier to understand why police brutality is so prevalent now.
> 
> This was in Canada, but I doubt that police culture, when you get down to essential elements, is that different in the two countries.




Not really as blunt as that, but my police officer friends more or less concur. The job of the police is to find who most likely commited the crime. The job of the prosecutor is the prove that likelihood. The job of the defense is to poke holes in that proof. The job of the judge is to wrangle cats.

I don't think they have a high appreciation of lawyer theatrics in front of judges.


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## JRRNeiklot (Mar 9, 2012)

Elf Witch said:


> The thing is reasonable suspicion can mean a lot of things.
> 
> If someone accuses you of a crime that is reasonable suspicion.
> 
> If you were a witness to a crime and refuse to cooperate by even giving the cop your name you can be charged with obstruction. If you lie to a cop during an investigation you can be charged for that.




Actually, I misspoke above.  Reasonable suspicion is enough to detain and question, and search for weapons to ensure the officer's safety.  Probable Cause is needed for an arrest, and it's a different animal.    "Probable Cause" must be based on factual evidence, not a hunch.  Probable cause is often subjective, but if the police officer's belief or even hunch was correct, finding stolen goods, the hidden weapon, or drugs may be claimed as self-fulfilling proof of probable cause, though technically, probable cause has to exist prior to arrest, search or seizure.

Now, I'm still looking at this from a gaming perspective, obviously I'm not suggesting you resist or flee arrest in real life, unless you are absolutely positive it's a false arrest.  And if you do, you had better be right.


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## billd91 (Mar 9, 2012)

Elf Witch said:


> If you mouth off at the police officer outside the store and refuse to answer questions or show ID when asked you may find your self slapped in cuffs for obstruction.




Refusing to answer questions (beyond identifying yourself) doesn't qualify as obstruction. If they do arrest you for that, any competent attorney should be able to defend you successfully. Lying to them is generally where obstruction applies.



Elf Witch said:


> In real life it pays to cooperate politely with law enforcement. Though if you are formally questioned for a crime always always ask for an attorney to be present.




No, don't ask. Firmly demand and don't talk until that lawyer is there. That's the advice of my defense attorney friend (and fellow gamer). It's too easy to dig yourself into a hole even if you are innocent of the crime being investigated without legal counsel.


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## Wild Gazebo (Mar 9, 2012)

Sorry misread the example.  Please ignore.


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## Elf Witch (Mar 9, 2012)

billd91 said:


> No, don't ask. Firmly demand and don't talk until that lawyer is there. That's the advice of my defense attorney friend (and fellow gamer). It's too easy to dig yourself into a hole even if you are innocent of the crime being investigated without legal counsel.




Ask, demand do what ever you have to. I have a friend who is public defender for over 30 years. He always said to not only ask for the attorney but to come out and say you are choosing to remain silent. Once you do that they are not supposed to keep questioning you. 

The thing that people forget is that cops are allowed to lie. And they will do what ever they can to get a confession. Why do you think so many confess when they are innocent.


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## Janx (Mar 10, 2012)

Elf Witch said:


> Ask, demand do what ever you have to. I have a friend who is public defender for over 30 years. He always said to not only ask for the attorney but to come out and say you are choosing to remain silent. Once you do that they are not supposed to keep questioning you.
> 
> The thing that people forget is that cops are allowed to lie. And they will do what ever they can to get a confession. Why do you think so many confess when they are innocent.




In recent cop shows I've seen (ex. Castle), it's been pointed out within the show that generally, the person who asks for a lawyer is the guilty one.

So remaining silent or asking for a lawyer falls into the realm of running away.  It makes you look guilty, despite actually being innocent.

The logic of "only a guilty person has something to hide" prevails behind this attitude, and as a result standing for your rights only makes you look more guilty.

One possible ridiculous solution to this is to implement an eye for an eye policy.  Cops have the right to search, detain, etc.  But if they are wrong, then their house gets ransacked, they get strip searched, bubba'd, anything that happened to you during the course of being investigated/detained as an
 innocent.

If searching wasn't "free" cops would better guage their need to do it.

Of course, then bad cops would simply come prepared with some plantable evidence for just in case times they search and find nothing.


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## Kzach (Mar 10, 2012)

Hmm... after a bit of thought on this, I think I'm on Elf Witch's side. Having been through the 'system' more than once, I think that if I was confronted and (falsely) accused of something, I'd lawyer up immediately and not say a word afterwards, whether in the Australian system (which is substantially different) or the American.

I don't care if the cops think that makes you guilty. At the end of the day, having the lawyer means you have an advocate on your side who understands the ins and outs of the law and is (or at least should be) acting in your best interests. It doesn't matter what the cops THINK, it matters what actually transpires in the courtroom and leading up to it and for that, I think a lawyer is an indispensable asset.


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## Cor Azer (Mar 11, 2012)

Yup. Even if completely innocent - lawyer. I've read a lot of IANAL threads, but that only makes me NAL. I want someone who actually knows what's going on.


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## Janx (Mar 11, 2012)

Cor Azer said:


> Yup. Even if completely innocent - lawyer. I've read a lot of IANAL threads, but that only makes me NAL. I want someone who actually knows what's going on.




a reasonable desire.

One problem.  lawyers aren't free.  Except for overworked public defenders.

We hear the phrase "let me talk to my lawyer", but the reality, most of us don't have a lawyer's name or number on the tip of our tongues or in our contact list.

So when trouble strikes, and you need to talk to your lawyer, you're one step behind in the game, what lawyer?


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## Dannyalcatraz (Mar 11, 2012)

Prepaid legal I'd becoming more popular...and more affordable.


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## Cor Azer (Mar 11, 2012)

No, not free (well, most aren't)

But if I do something stupid because I didn't spend that money, then I'll be 'not free' in a different sense.


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## Jhaelen (Mar 11, 2012)

Janx said:


> If a person is being arrested (not just questioned) under a false cause, there has been a breakdown in the system.



I think you're exaggerating. Errors happen all the time but fortunately it is usually easy to sort them out. E.g. I know that in my town (about 10k people) there's another person with an identical first & last name. I learned about him because I once received a reminder that was meant for him.

It's true that I actually had the 'detain and question' scenario in mind, though, not an actual arrest. I'm not sure it changes much, except I'd be very curious what would warrant an arrest.



Janx said:


> We hear the phrase "let me talk to my lawyer", but the reality, most of us don't have a lawyer's name or number on the tip of our tongues or in our contact list.



I suppose that also varies a lot depending on which country you live in. Here in Germany almost everyone has a 'defense insurance' to cover the costs of a lawyer and court fees. Apparently, according to the comments on www.leo.org (my favorite dictionary), this concept doesn't even exist in the US. Colour me surprised!

I definitely always carry my lawyer's business card around with me, even though I only required his services twice, so far.


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## Kzach (Mar 11, 2012)

Jhaelen said:


> It's true that I actually had the 'detain and question' scenario in mind, though, not an actual arrest. I'm not sure it changes much, except I'd be very curious what would warrant an arrest.




I don't know about other countries but 'detain and question' constitutes arrest here in Australia. In fact, arrest can be any situation in which a person FEELS as if they are prevented from leaving an area. Just blocking an exit and standing in the way of someone leaving a building can constitute arrest.

Furthermore, ANYONE can do it. Which is why we have a very sticky situation with bag-checking in Australia (Victoria) when leaving a business. Only the police have the right to stop someone and search their person or property without a warrant. Anyone else who stops someone without either a warrant, police command or 'finds committing' (you've witnessed them committing an indictable offence) and/or tries to search another person's property or person, is committing false arrest which carries some seriously nasty penalties.

In addition, if a citizen (ie. not a police officer) witnesses you shoplifting (ie. putting something in your bag and walking out of the store with it) but loses sight of that person for even the slightest instant, they have then lost 'finds committing' and can't legally arrest the offender.

In essence, this allows anyone to just steal whatever they like and walk straight out of a store with it because unless the loss prevention officers or someone else has witnessed the person concealing the item and walking out with it, without ever losing sight of them from the moment of concealment to the point of exit, you can't legally stop or search them; in fact, even if you stop them, if the person says no to a search, you can't search them at all for whatever reason. And if anyone does try, the thief can charge the person with false arrest and illegal search.


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## Elf Witch (Mar 12, 2012)

Janx said:


> In recent cop shows I've seen (ex. Castle), it's been pointed out within the show that generally, the person who asks for a lawyer is the guilty one.
> 
> So remaining silent or asking for a lawyer falls into the realm of running away.  It makes you look guilty, despite actually being innocent.
> 
> ...




I love Castle and other cops shows but I often find myself yelling at the TV  telling the bad guys to shut up and demand a lawyer. 

Here is a cool video on the subject. [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik]Don't Talk to Cops, Part 1 - YouTube[/ame]

And now the sequel [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08fZQWjDVKE&feature=related]Don't Talk to Cops, Part 2 - YouTube[/ame]


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