# Do Entangle, Grease and Web ruin D&D?



## FireLance (Sep 3, 2004)

Over in the World's Largest Dungeon thread, Jim Pinto mentioned:


			
				jim pinto said:
			
		

> i think entangle, web, and grease RUIN dungeons and dragons



Further on, he mentioned that one of the sidebars in the introduction to the World's Largest Dungeon contained comments as to why PCs should not have these spells.

Having DMed for a bit, I can honestly say that I have no problems with these spells. Does anyone have a different experience? If someone has got the World's Largest Dungeon and is willing to summarize the arguments in the sidebar, that would also be appreciated.

Please note that Jim Pinto has specifically avoided discussing this topic in the other thread, so I would appreciate it if you do not comment on him in this or the other thread. Please feel free to discuss his views, but no flames or nasty remarks.

Mods, I felt this was a toss-up between General and Rules. If you think it is more appropriate, please feel free to move it.


----------



## 2WS-Steve (Sep 3, 2004)

I imagine every GM (and maybe a few players) has a small list of things they don't like--thus all the house rules.

Those spells never caused any particular problem in the games I ran but they also weren't relied on too heavily. In WLD the comment regarding them is just a small one, small enough to even quote verbatim:



> One last thing, spells like _entangle_ and _web_ are devastatingly powerful in a dungeon. We've made sure the bad guys don't have them, DM's should do the same with PCs.




If anything, _entangle_ should be worse outside a dungeon since you can use it on a far away group then pepper the saps with arrows. But, again, it hasn't been a game breaker for me, just a way to make the druid feel useful occasionally at the lower levels.


----------



## Dark Jezter (Sep 3, 2004)

I've never seen those spells abused in an actual PnP D&D session, but in the Temple of Elemental Evil computer game, one of my favorite tactics for dealing with powerful melee enemies was to entangle them and then riddle them with arrows from afar.


----------



## Paragon Kobold (Sep 3, 2004)

Seems rather strange. Entangle and the like are tactical spells, that can be quite devastating 
at times, but they don't really do that much by themselves. Their most common use as I have seen 
it is against large groups of enemies, enabling the group to fight just a few at a time. 
They are also extremely useful for covering retreats so that the characters can escape when they 
are in over their heads. Perhaps the most annoying use, (and I speak now as a GM) is to prevent 
enemies from escaping when defeated. Anyway, they are all spells that require some thought to use 
effectively. Not a lot of thought mind you but more than the simple 'point and do damage' spells.

For me, using non-damaging spells to defeat your enemies or otherwise succeed simply feels a 
lot more satisfying than to just pummeling them into submission. Therefore these are probably 
the last spells I would ban.


----------



## Darklone (Sep 3, 2004)

I have a long list of other spells which I would think they are killing D&D ... but not any below spell level 4


----------



## StalkingBlue (Sep 3, 2004)

Hm, I haven't read the other thread, but taken out of context the poster quoted in the initial post above sounds like an extremely insecure DM unable to reward, or even run with, basic-smart player tactics.  

Web is slightly overpowered for its level and Entangle can be in certain environments (although certainly not in a dungeon!), but both are easily fixed if required, and I've never encountered a problem with Grease. All three are nifty tactical spells, certainly - but game breakers?   


We've found Entangle overpowered for a first-level spell in our mostly wilderness-based Midnight game, but I can't see how the spell would even see much in a dungeon crawl game.  Entangle doesn't conjure up plants, it merely works on the plant already growing in an area - hence it's useless on the stone slabs and dead rocky tunnels of most dungeon environments. 

Even in an outdoors setting, either shifting Entangle up to second level or halving the radius of the area effect works fine to balance it, we've tried both in our game. 


Web of course works beautifully in a dungeon environment, and in our experience it's slightly overpowered for its level.  As written Web effectively has no save - even if you succeed on the saving throw you are stuck and can't move an inch unless you succeed on difficult STR/Escape Artist Rolls for every 5' you wish to move until you finally burst out. 
I allow 5' movement per round even on a failed STR check if the character has succeeded on the initial saving throw, but I don't think it's a necessary houserule at all:  Web is a very useful spell for its level, but it there are ways to counter it (fire, for instance).  


Grease ... well, if you really hate it, call the spellcaster "John Travolta" every time he casts it. That should prevent overuse.


----------



## FreeTheSlaves (Sep 3, 2004)

I agree somewhat with those spells being irksome.

They are memory intensive spells. Every player need to remember if they saved, how far within the mess they are, the differing mechanics of how they impede movement & whatever bonuses due to partial cover. They are just headache spells that I must always look up (except for grease).

As a general rule, any spell that has a cumbersome description is seldom cast imc. Looking up rules mid combat just bogs everyone down and tempers are open to the risk of fraying.

I don't think they ruin D&D at all however.


----------



## random user (Sep 3, 2004)

Well, last session my players just used web to defeat an encounter they should have had to retreat from.  The party of six is all level 7 or 8.  It's also a fairly high power world in addition to the 2 extra party members, so a CR12 is something I would consider a challenge to them -- something that they can defeat if they don't suck.

They encountered two wereboars using the hill giant wereboar stats (cr12) and a weretiger (cr5).  Luckily for them, a couple things went the right way.  They had thrown a torch (don't ask me why they don't have continual light stones by now, because I don't know the answer) into the center of a large cavern which was still low enough for web.

At the edge of the light they saw a tiger (which they knew was a weretiger) spring back.  The monk moved forward and picked up the torch as his actions, with the intent of tossing the torch forward again the next round.  The fighter stayed near the entry of the cavern, about 10 feet in, with the rest of the party behind him.

The two wereboars charged two different players, the monk and the fighter, who the closest.  The weretiger was not able to engage because of distance but double-moved with the intent of flanking the human (it didn't know it was a monk) the next round and getting a full round of attacks with a 5 foot step.

The wereboar almost kills the monk, but he survives.  He tumbles out of the way and web #1 goes off hitting the wereboar and weretiger which were next to the monk.  The weretiger fails the save.  The wereboar makes it.

The other party members do their thing, nothing unusual.

The weretiger attempts to break free and succeeds.  The wereboar, who made his save last turn, attempts to move.  It rolls a 10, which combined with its 40 str, gives it a roll of 25, which is enough to move 15 feet.  It moves out of the web and can join its wereboar brother the next round.

Web #2 goes off.  There is enough room that another 20 feet of web appear that the wereboar needs to deal with.  It again makes its save.  The weretiger rolls a 9 for its strength, which along with 25 strength gives it a +7 for 16 which means it can move 10 feet.  It moves and is 5 feet away from making it out of the web the next turn.

The wereboar near the fighter is trading blows, but the fighter is being healed by both a cleric and a bard and is doing ok.

The next round wereboar moves 10 or 15 feet (I don't remember which -- remember this is with the +15 bonus from its enormous strength) and may make it out the next round.  The tiger also rolls low but enough to move out of the web.  Next turn it can get to the melee but not fight.

The party doesn't realize the weretiger isn't that strong and web #3 goes off.  The tiger makes its save but has 20 feet of web to get through.

The next round the party downs the first wereboar just as the second one frees itself from the web.  The tiger ended up being out of it for 3 more rounds, which is enough for the party (remember it's 6 on 1) to down the other wereboar.

By the time the weretiger gets out of its web, the second wereboar has died and it decides to flee.

2 cr12s and a cr5 killed/defeated by a standard level 7 and 8 party of 6.  Nothing wacky is allowed... it's all core book only for the most part.

And it was all because of web, and despite the fact that two of the monsters had str 40 and the other a str 25.

Do I think it ruins D&D? Not really IMO.  However, it can make some otherwise unwinnable situations trivial.

It also requires the DM to take it into account if they care (the story would have evolved ok whether they had defeated, negotiated, or ran from the monsters and my campaign doesn't award xp for monsters killed).  It can be counteracted in many way  Fire, magic use, rings of free action, etc etc.  But it does require the DM to craft a strategy specifically for that spell, which can be annoying if the encounter matters in a particaular way.

Just my 2cp


----------



## Jeff Wilder (Sep 3, 2004)

random user said:
			
		

> Do I think it ruins D&D? Not really IMO.  However, it can make some otherwise unwinnable situations trivial.




My players use _web_ sometimes, but it's certainly not a game-breaker.  For one thing, intelligent foes won't hesitate to burn the web.  Better to take a little bit of damage than to be entangled and slaughtered.  For another thing, the spell provides cover or total cover.  This can be very handy for those trapped -- or not -- in the _web_.  Once concession I'll make is that the DCs for breaking free are 5 points too high, especially considering that making the attempt is a full-round action.

Similarly, when I played a druid, I found _entangle_ to be useful, but with enough drawbacks that it wasn't a spell I relied on.  The party was often hampered by the sheer size of the area affected, and the fact that the spell is non-discriminating.  It did make the difference in a battle or two, but only with very good tactical use.

As for _grease_ ... buh?  _Grease_ is the perfect example of a fun first-level spell to be creative with.


----------



## Nightchilde-2 (Sep 3, 2004)

I ran a session where the PCs were the target of an entangle spell cast by a goblin druid.

They weren't too happy.    

But do I think spells like this break the game?  No.  Not at all.  Just remember, anything the PCs have access to, so, too, do the badguys (generally speaking).


----------



## Henry (Sep 3, 2004)

I do see a small number of DM's who want to eliminate any spell that does something besides deal damage. It's not a position I agree with, and a D&D game that has no harmful spells except damage dealers seems less fun to me in play. I like the broader tactical options in play, and reducing all spells to just "damage or information or buffing" just seems to cheapen it for me.

Grease, Web, and Entangle all have in common that they restrict movement by area, and they are persistent. Since we use miniatures and a battlemat, this is not a problem for us, since spell effects are marked with wet erase - same as for any wall spell or fog effect. Perhaps it's because Web has such a NASTY requirement for movement (either excessive strength or a skill which no one but rogues seem to take)  that people get upset with it.

If web becomes a problem, I would suggest one fix would be to simplify the "stuck" rules - make it like jump, with solid DC's per target. Perhaps the move is at least 5 feet per round, and a dc10 check will make it ten feet, dc 15 will be 15 feet, etc. - making it a little easier to adjudicate, and ensuring that people with bad dice rolls won't be sitting immobile the entire time. Perhaps entangle could be edited the same way, making the target numbers easy for a player to eyeball in the middle of combat. It doesn't make sense to me that they should go to all the trouble of de-powering hold person, yet another 2nd level spell ALL BUT makes a person helpless.


----------



## Faerl'Elghinn (Sep 3, 2004)

Nope.  _Briar Web_ ruins Dungeons & Dragons.


----------



## Paragon Kobold (Sep 3, 2004)

Faerl'Elghinn said:
			
		

> Nope.  _Briar Web_ ruins Dungeons & Dragons.




Thats right, it does.


----------



## spectre72 (Sep 3, 2004)

Faerl'Elghinn said:
			
		

> Nope.  _Briar Web_ ruins Dungeons & Dragons.




Well since I am currently playing a druid in our campaign I will say that entangle, briar web, and spike stones are very powerfull in the right circumstances.

Now I will also say that some of these spells can be as damaging to the party as to the creatures they face.  

Giving the party the ability to dictate the battlefield will give them an advantage, but when the enemy has the same ability I think it evens out.


----------



## Thanee (Sep 3, 2004)

Are you still playing D&D? Still enjoying it? So there. Not ruined.

 Bye
 Thanee


----------



## Faerl'Elghinn (Sep 3, 2004)

/sarcasm.


----------



## DragonLancer (Sep 3, 2004)

Essentially, every spell in D&D ruins the game. They all make it easier for the players and harder on the monsters. But it also works in reverse.


----------



## Psion (Sep 3, 2004)

I've seen either spell have a singificant combat impact. I've seen both have little to no impact.

Just like any other appropriately powerful spell, really.


----------



## Jim Hague (Sep 3, 2004)

Hmm...I'll have to check my contributor's copy, but IIRC there's quite a few ettercaps in Region I that have _Web_ in their arsenal.  but then again, they're goony spider guys. 

As for the utility of spells like _Grease_ and _Web_...I dunno.  I've used _Grease_ to devastating effect in a campaign (foggy, steep arch/bridge, _Gust of Wind_...) but _Web_ IMO becomes fairly useless at higher levels and against certain creatures - try it on a girillion sometime.  Yeesh.


----------



## Shade (Sep 3, 2004)

Darklone said:
			
		

> I have a long list of other spells which I would think they are killing D&D ... but not any below spell level 4



Not _enlarge person_?  That spell has single-handedly ruined my game.  A 1st-level spell that gives +2 to Str (that stacks with most other buffs), 10 ft. reach, and makes weapons do more damage isn't so bad for a straight spellcaster...but is way too nice for a figher with 1 level of sorcerer.


----------



## spectre72 (Sep 3, 2004)

A recent happening in our campaign...

We were sneaking into the main arcane school in our GM's world, which just happened to be taken over by demons (all of the mages were in stasis - long story  ).

I told the party I was casting Briar Web as soon as we encountered any demons.

16 or so weak demons were encountered, and the dwarf charged.

Briar Web was cast and he was stuck in the mess.

The demons didn't do anything, and the dwarf was stuck and couldn't do anything.

We cleaned up the demons with ranged weapons, and then the dwarf asked me to hold my spell next time.

To which I replied, "I told you what I was doing and you still charged".

We came to the agreement that both of us had done what we needed to, and will do so again next time


----------



## Rel (Sep 3, 2004)

I'll go with the concensus and say that I don't think that any of these spells are game breaking.  All three have significant limitations that make the opportunity cost for taking them rather considerable.

On the upside, Entangle is enormous.  We made clear plastic templates for various area effect spells to use on our battlemat and the Entangle template is 16 inches across!   But (according to the way we play the spell) you simply can't use it indoors or underground.  There is not enough natural vegitation in such areas to allow the spell to be useful.  This is in spite of what you see in Neverwinter Nights.

Web, as has been pointed out, is easily destroyed by fire.  Provided that any of the enemy has a quick and effective means of making fire (Prestidigitation is often used), it simply buys the party a few rounds of breathing room and is a 2nd level area effect damage spell that does 2d4.  Also, the requirement that it have two or more surfaces to attach to means that you seldom get the full area of effect out of it and it is often useless outdoors.

Grease has the least limitations on where it can be used but if the area is too big then any enemies that aren't in it at the time of casting can simply go around it.  It is most useful for area denial.  In a dungeon environment, it can block a corridor but anybody who can fly, jump far or climb well can bypass it fairly easily.

These spells don't concern me at all.  I've got far greater issues with _Miasma_ and _Greater Magic Weapon_, both of which I've house ruled.


----------



## derelictjay (Sep 3, 2004)

Lets see grease and entangle I've got no problem with. Web, I've got no problem with, but I've seen the spell grind the game to a halt. Example: A large group of goblins were attacking the PCs who were 5th level I believe. When the wizard of the group cast Web, now none of the participants (goblins or PCs) had fire available to them, and none of them were able to make their strength checks either. So we had several rounds of dice rolling to move in the Web and nothing else, very boring. But gamebreakers, none of these spells do that.


----------



## rkanodia (Sep 4, 2004)

Maybe a way to speed up Grease, Web, and Entangle would be to have them use existing mechanics rather than having to look them up every time.  For instance, they could look like this:

Web/Entangle: At the time of casting, each creature that fails its saving throw is considered grappled. Any time a creature not currently grappled by the spell attempts to move, attack, cast a spell, or take any other physical action in the spell's area of affect, the spell attempts to grapple that creature.  The grapple check for a Web or Entangle is always equal to its save DC.  Applying fire to a web ignites it, dealing 2d4 fire damage to all creatures in the area and freeing them from the grapple effect.

Grease: At the time of casting, each creature that fails its saving throw falls to the ground, prone.  Any time a creature who is not prone attempts to move, attack, cast a spell, or take any other physical action in the spell's area of effect, the spell attempts to knock that creature down.  Treat this as a trip attack which automatically suceeds its touch attack and has a trip check equal to the spell's save DC.  This spell can also be cast on an item instead of a location; in that case, the item attempts to disarm any person who picks it up, causing it to be dropped if that person fails to beat its disarm check (again, equal to the spell's save DC).

I haven't actually run the numbers on this to see how they compare in power, but does anyone else like the idea of using the existing combat mechanics?


----------



## Elder-Basilisk (Sep 4, 2004)

I find it interesting that Web, Grease and Entangle earned his ire but not Black Tentacles, Solid Fog, Acid Fog, and Wall of Force.

Entangle can be frustrating outdoors and I generally now allow characters with alchemist's fire to burn or cut their way through.

Web is fairly easy to counter though it can be effective. I worry more about Glitterdust though. Web is pretty tricky to use outdoors though which mitigates its effectiveness a lot.

Grease--what's the problem with Grease?

All told, the only thing I can see "ruining" D&D from these spells is parties that cast them and then shoot all their enemies until they die. But that only works in certain situations (most of which aren't in dungeons) and enemies with missile weapons can still shoot back.


----------



## Privateer (Sep 4, 2004)

rkanodia said:
			
		

> Maybe a way to speed up Grease, Web, and Entangle would be to have them use existing mechanics rather than having to look them up every time.  For instance, they could look like this:
> 
> --cut for space--




My good man or woman, that's brilliant.  I'm not sure how it matches up either, but I'm using that in my game once I figure out if it's about on par.


----------



## Malin Genie (Sep 4, 2004)

No - _Evard's Black Tentacles_ ruins the game.  Grappled - so cannot cast spells, need an attack action at least to escape - and then risk being grappled again next round - yeuchh!


----------



## Olgar Shiverstone (Sep 4, 2004)

These spells have all gotten good use in my game, and while they've occasionally caused my a little DMing frustration, I wouldn't think of removing them.  Players need lots of smart options, and these spells provide them.

If players aren't challenging the DM and making him work, they're not trying.


----------



## VirtualWizard (Sep 4, 2004)

It seems to me that the monsters lost this one because they didn't stay together.  Sure, the Web spell slowed the monsters down, but if they had moved at the pace of the slowest member, they would have faced the party together.  Instead, the monsters chose to fight as individuals giving the adventurer group all the advantages.  In this case, Web doesn't seem like a game breaker just a tactic disrupter.


----------

