# Review of Twilight: 2000: You’re on Your Own, Good Luck



## marroon69 (Jan 3, 2022)

I agree, I feel this game is amazing. We have been playing since beta and it really hits the mark for me. The ability to place the players in the undefined grey world makes ever decisions difficult. There are very few black and white decisions everything has a trade off. The use of "Coolness Under Fire" during combat and "Empathy" to kill in cold blood are great mechanics.


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## sevenbastard (Jan 3, 2022)

It's a great value and a cool game. I hope they put out a hex crawl style region guide with addtion locations and random encounters.


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## Mezuka (Jan 3, 2022)

You just pushed me over the edge. My copy is on the way.


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## Grendel_Khan (Jan 3, 2022)

marroon69 said:


> I agree, I feel this game is amazing. We have been playing since beta and it really hits the mark for me. The ability to place the players in the undefined grey world makes ever decisions difficult. There are very few black and white decisions everything has a trade off. The use of "Coolness Under Fire" during combat and "Empathy" to kill in cold blood are great mechanics.



The way Suppression is tied to autofire, getting hit, having your cover get hit, explosives, etc. is all done so well. Plus I found that combat turns go so quickly that losing your turn to a Coolness Under Fire failure isn't anywhere near as aggravating as in most other systems. And that you take a point of Stress when it happens makes it more like you've been hit, and less like the GM telling you "Hey you're suddenly and temporarily scared." It's like the wind gets knocked out of you. So well done!!


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## Skytheen (Jan 3, 2022)

Do you feel the "A, B, C" is necessary over just simply saying d6, d8 (like Savage Worlds)? Felt very GDW, but not essential.


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## bedir than (Jan 3, 2022)

i've been holding off getting this, but probably not for much longer.


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## Charles Dunwoody (Jan 3, 2022)

Skytheen said:


> Do you feel the "A, B, C" is necessary over just simply saying d6, d8 (like Savage Worlds)? Felt very GDW, but not essential.




It makes converting previous editions a lot easier. It matches up with GDW material.


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## Grendel_Khan (Jan 3, 2022)

@Charles Dunwoody Curious what you think of the different dice types instead of the more standard use of d6 pools in YZE games? I've read most of the YZE games but only played Twilight 2000, and I haven't run the numbers to see how the probabilities stack up. But in play I wound up really liking the T2K approach--especially with the special dice that come with the boxed set. Have you played enough YZE to compare and contrast that element?


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## THEMNGMNT (Jan 3, 2022)

I grew up in the 80s and played some 1st edition Twilight 2000 in middle school. I loved the whole vibe. I still own a few of the original adventures. It would be great to pick it up again for a longterm campaign, but I've already got too many games going.


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## Eyes of Nine (Jan 3, 2022)

Not a fan of YZE out of the box so I gave this game a pass, but the setting and the setup as described in the article is making me reconsider this game... I am more interested in playing in it than running it though.


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## MGibster (Jan 4, 2022)

THEMNGMNT said:


> I grew up in the 80s and played some 1st edition Twilight 2000 in middle school. I loved the whole vibe. I still own a few of the original adventures. It would be great to pick it up again for a longterm campaign, but I've already got too many games going.



I grew up in the 80s, spent some time in West German actually, and that might be one of the reasons I'm hesitant to purchase _Twilight 2000_.  My father was in the US Army, and I remember on occasion he'd get a call and he'd have to go out on maneuvers as part of preparing for a Soviet invasion that thankfully never came.   I remember seeing tanks in small German towns, soldiers going places, and propaganda left in our mail from those unhappy with a US presence.  I remember a soldier sleeping next to me while riding the metro.  (I hope someone gets that reference.)  So the game just conjures up a lot of memories for me despite having never playing it.  

I've been impressed with every Free League game I've seen so far.  And I'm a bit surprised to find that I'm interested in running it.  I'm not so sure it's a game that would interest my players though.


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## Skytheen (Jan 4, 2022)

MGibster said:


> I remember a soldier sleeping next to me while riding the metro.



I had to look it up. So good. "I'm alone sitting with my empty glass"


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## R_Chance (Jan 4, 2022)

MGibster said:


> I grew up in the 80s, spent some time in West German actually, and that might be one of the reasons I'm hesitant to purchase _Twilight 2000_.  My father was in the US Army, and I remember on occasion he'd get a call and he'd have to go out on maneuvers as part of preparing for a Soviet invasion that thankfully never came.   I remember seeing tanks in small German towns, soldiers going places, and propaganda left in our mail from those unhappy with a US presence.  I remember a soldier sleeping next to me while riding the metro.  (I hope someone gets that reference.)  So the game just conjures up a lot of memories for me despite having never playing it.
> 
> I've been impressed with every Free League game I've seen so far.  And I'm a bit surprised to find that I'm interested in running it.  I'm not so sure it's a game that would interest my players though.



All right. You've got me listening to Berlin again...


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Jan 4, 2022)

It is still an interesting concept, but like others here, I played the old 1st/2nd editions of the game back in the late 80's/early 90's, and going from playing a possible future of war to playing an alternate past of war, just does not work for me. I would just rather leave the whole Cold War stuff in the past and not relive it.


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## Charles Dunwoody (Jan 4, 2022)

Grendel_Khan said:


> @Charles Dunwoody Curious what you think of the different dice types instead of the more standard use of d6 pools in YZE games? I've read most of the YZE games but only played Twilight 2000, and I haven't run the numbers to see how the probabilities stack up. But in play I wound up really liking the T2K approach--especially with the special dice that come with the boxed set. Have you played enough YZE to compare and contrast that element?




I have run Mutant: Year Zero, Forbidden Lands, Alien, and Coriolis. FL introduced bigger dice than the d6 and I really liked the addition. I like the approach in T2 even more I think, since it cuts the dice pool down by several dice. Extremely fast, which is what I want in a game like this.

The game provides the probabilities on page 46 of the Player's Manual:


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## Charles Dunwoody (Jan 4, 2022)

MGibster said:


> I grew up in the 80s, spent some time in West German actually, and that might be one of the reasons I'm hesitant to purchase _Twilight 2000_.  My father was in the US Army, and I remember on occasion he'd get a call and he'd have to go out on maneuvers as part of preparing for a Soviet invasion that thankfully never came.   I remember seeing tanks in small German towns, soldiers going places, and propaganda left in our mail from those unhappy with a US presence.  I remember a soldier sleeping next to me while riding the metro.  (I hope someone gets that reference.)  So the game just conjures up a lot of memories for me despite having never playing it.
> 
> I've been impressed with every Free League game I've seen so far.  And I'm a bit surprised to find that I'm interested in running it.  I'm not so sure it's a game that would interest my players though.




Yeah, it can feel really real to those of us who lived during that time. I haven't run a campaign of the new T2 yet, but I think it would actually leave me feeling better after playing it, since things worked out so much better in the real world. Makes all the sacrifices citizen soldiers have made more meaningful and helps me appreciate all the cooperation between countries it took for democracy to win the Cold War. But yes, I would be very mindful of how the game makes other players as well as me feel and just have a frank discussion about it.

You might at some point also end up gaming with someone from former Soviet countries. Again, I think a respectful conversation is the way to go and an appreciation that we can all game together now as friends. Things are still tough today but communication is a much bigger option than ever before.

This can also inform our roleplaying. Enemy combatants in T2 are people too and not all of them may want to continue fighting. And soldiers from Western nations can become the enemy in a situation like T2 because they are people too and people are flawed. War really is hell.

Definitely a game for mature audiences and a table of open discussion!


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## Charles Dunwoody (Jan 4, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> It is still an interesting concept, but like others here, I played the old 1st/2nd editions of the game back in the late 80's/early 90's, and going from playing a possible future of war to playing an alternate past of war, just does not work for me. I would just rather leave the whole Cold War stuff in the past and not relive it.




That makes sense to me. T2 tackles tough themes and conjures images and events that can be stressful. It certainly won't be for everybody. I know I would have to be in a certain frame of mind to run it or play it.


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## Charles Dunwoody (Jan 4, 2022)

I didn't mention in my review, but I received the T2 soundtrack by Andreas Lundströn through the kickstarter. It is really good, even if you aren't running T2. It might have been a kickstarter exclusive, but if Free League ever offers it, it is well worth getting if you want theme music in your RPG campaign. I find A Broken Landscape haunting.


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## Fenhorn (Jan 4, 2022)

Charles Dunwoody said:


> I didn't mention in my review, but I received the T2 soundtrack by Andreas Lundströn through the kickstarter. It is really good, even if you aren't running T2. It might have been a kickstarter exclusive, but if Free League ever offers it, it is well worth getting if you want theme music in your RPG campaign. I find A Broken Landscape haunting.



The soundtrack to T2K can be found on spotify (and most likely other music streaming services) now. As well as the soundtracks made for the other FL games.


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## lyle.spade (Jan 4, 2022)

Eyes of Nine said:


> Not a fan of YZE out of the box so I gave this game a pass, but the setting and the setup as described in the article is making me reconsider this game... I am more interested in playing in it than running it though.



I am not a fan of YZE, either, and didn't back the KS because of that - I wanted to see how the modified version of the system was before spending money on it. I've played Forbidden Lands, Mutant Year Zero, and a good amount of Alien...and really don't like that mechanic, or what trappings they've added around it.

T2K's version is a massive improvement, making the system playable by providing more variability of results and more possibilities for doing things with surplus success. A buddy of mine and I have played it a few times as a skirmish game, to work out the combat rules, and it flows well and provides and, at times, incentivizes, realistic decisions.


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## eyeheartawk (Jan 4, 2022)

MGibster said:


> I grew up in the 80s, spent some time in West German actually, and that might be one of the reasons I'm hesitant to purchase _Twilight 2000_.  My father was in the US Army, and I remember on occasion he'd get a call and he'd have to go out on maneuvers as part of preparing for a Soviet invasion that thankfully never came.   I remember seeing tanks in small German towns, soldiers going places, and propaganda left in our mail from those unhappy with a US presence.  I remember a soldier sleeping next to me while riding the metro.  (I hope someone gets that reference.)  So the game just conjures up a lot of memories for me despite having never playing it.
> 
> I've been impressed with every Free League game I've seen so far.  And I'm a bit surprised to find that I'm interested in running it.  I'm not so sure it's a game that would interest my players though.



I grew up in West Germany as well, in a border town with France and I recall many times our lessons in our little village school would get interrupted by massive American, German, French and British convoys on the way to and from exercises to simulate the inevitable Soviet invasion of the Fulda Gap. Imagine trying to learn your multiplication tables with tanks and self propelled guns on trailers rolling by.


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## lyle.spade (Jan 4, 2022)

MGibster said:


> I grew up in the 80s, spent some time in West German actually, and that might be one of the reasons I'm hesitant to purchase _Twilight 2000_.  My father was in the US Army, and I remember on occasion he'd get a call and he'd have to go out on maneuvers as part of preparing for a Soviet invasion that thankfully never came.   I remember seeing tanks in small German towns, soldiers going places, and propaganda left in our mail from those unhappy with a US presence.  I remember a soldier sleeping next to me while riding the metro.  (I hope someone gets that reference.)  So the game just conjures up a lot of memories for me despite having never playing it.
> 
> I've been impressed with every Free League game I've seen so far.  And I'm a bit surprised to find that I'm interested in running it.  I'm not so sure it's a game that would interest my players though.



Hmm...I was hoping you would...change my mind.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Jan 4, 2022)

This review gives me more hope than earlier snippets I had read about this edition.  A fan of the 1e game and we have a campaign on hold that we have been meaning to get back into eventually.  I worried that the game would be more action movie than "real war".  In 1e getting shot sucked and I worried that this would be more 5e, a night sleep cures a 7.62 though the leg type mechanics.

Going to find an indepth review but I may have to pick this up and go back to Europe to slug it out with commies like its the 80's all over again.


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## GuyBoy (Jan 4, 2022)

I remember being in UK army cadets and shooting at 2d-mannequin targets, which had “Ivan” printed across their chests. Unbelievably horrific to think back on now, but didn’t even question it too deeply in the midst of the Cold War, especially in the late 1970s as Detente was running out of steam. 
Years later, I was in Moscow in 2015 with a party of 6th formers ( high school seniors in US?) and our guide in the city was same age as me. We talked a lot about how we’d both been brought up to hate. 

(Memorably, he also said that the moment McDonalds opened in Moscow was the moment he and his friends knew that the USSR had lost the Cold War. A bit like “McDonalds Peace Theory” it doesn’t stand up to full intellectual scrutiny as an analytical tool, but interesting nonetheless)

Returning to the game, I may well give it a shot. Most of the people I game with are early 40s, so they’re more Huntington’s Thesis kids than Cold War kids. Should be interesting.


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## MGibster (Jan 4, 2022)

GuyBoy said:


> (Memorably, he also said that the moment McDonalds opened in Moscow was the moment he and his friends knew that the USSR had lost the Cold War. A bit like “McDonalds Peace Theory” it doesn’t stand up to full intellectual scrutiny as an analytical tool, but interesting nonetheless)



The late 80s represented a period of detente between the Soviet Union and the United States, and I think for most Americans, the opening of McDonald's in Red Square was simply a hopeful sign that the relationship would continue to improve.  The collapse of the Soviet Union caught us with our pants down in that none of our intelligence agencies saw it coming and our foreign policy decisions were being made with the assumption that the Soviets would be around for a while.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Jan 4, 2022)

Being from the 80's generation, I think it would have been cool if they had advanced the game and called it Twilight: 2020 and used all the real stuff going on between Trump and Putin and Xi and Kim, etc. Just file the serial numbers off/change names and start the war in 2017/2018, instead of 1997/1998. And while other modern day-set games like Vampire 5E use real world stuff, I am not sure the younger generations could handle the concept of a present-day nuclear war as part of a TTRPG. Just the thought of all the cell networks being dead would freak them all out.   lol


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## MGibster (Jan 4, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Being from the 80's generation, I think it would have been cool if they had advanced the game and called it Twilight: 2020 and used all the real stuff going on between Trump and Putin and Xi and Kim, etc. Just file the serial numbers off/change names and start the war in 2017/2018, instead of 1997/1998.



I just don't think there's a similar dynamic in 2017 that there was during the Cold War.  It would feel off.  Like if someone remade _Red Dawn _and changed the invaders from Cubans and Russians to North Koreans or something.  It just wouldn't work as well.


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## Grendel_Khan (Jan 4, 2022)

Flexor the Mighty! said:


> This review gives me more hope than earlier snippets I had read about this edition.  A fan of the 1e game and we have a campaign on hold that we have been meaning to get back into eventually.  I worried that the game would be more action movie than "real war".  In 1e getting shot sucked and I worried that this would be more 5e, a night sleep cures a 7.62 though the leg type mechanics.
> 
> Going to find an indepth review but I may have to pick this up and go back to Europe to slug it out with commies like its the 80's all over again.




Getting shot in 4e Twilight 2000 sucks very much. Most characters probably can't take more than two rifle rounds before getting incapacitated. What's great, though, is that you don't _have_ to get hyper-specific about the exact nature of the wound unless it's a critical injury, meaning (in most cases) if it does more damage than usual to a given location because you rolled more than one success to hit. In that case you break out the table and roll to see how bad it is, how often you'll have to save against death (could be once per turn, once ever few minutes, or once every handful of hours), whether you can move or be moved without rolling to die again, etc. So it has that ability to get really detailed and gnarly, but you don't have to do it every time you're hit. There are notable exceptions, like with sniper rifles, where hitting anyone in an unarmored location will always do a crit injury. And aiming for the head doesn't do more damage--it means if you do get a crit injury, it's more likely to be lethal.

And, importantly, the rules note that GMs should probably skip most of that stuff for regular NPCs--a crit injury in those cases should just take them out of the fight. You could always ignore that and do crit table rolls whenever they apply. But in my experience having those tables ready for major NPCs, but letting crit injuries just turn others into casualties, works great.

As a fan of realistic gun combat rules, but someone who's also watched hardcore systems grind to a halt at the altar of realism, I can't recommend these rules more highly. Such a smart blend of streamlined mechanics and gritty consequences.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Jan 4, 2022)

MGibster said:


> I just don't think there's a similar dynamic in 2017 that there was during the Cold War.  It would feel off.  Like if someone remade _Red Dawn _and changed the invaders from Cubans and Russians to North Koreans or something.  It just wouldn't work as well.




Since there is zero clues in your post about whether you are being sarcastic or just never heard of the movie:









						Red Dawn (2012) - IMDb
					

Red Dawn: Directed by Dan Bradley. With Chris Hemsworth, Josh Peck, Josh Hutcherson, Adrianne Palicki. A group of teenagers look to save their town from an invasion of North Korean soldiers.




					www.imdb.com


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## GuyBoy (Jan 4, 2022)

MGibster said:


> The late 80s represented a period of detente between the Soviet Union and the United States, and I think for most Americans, the opening of McDonald's in Red Square was simply a hopeful sign that the relationship would continue to improve.  The collapse of the Soviet Union caught us with our pants down in that none of our intelligence agencies saw it coming and our foreign policy decisions were being made with the assumption that the Soviets would be around for a while.



Detente was more late 70s than 80s, so I guess that's a typo.
The rapid collapse of the Soviet Union (and the whole WP) was certainly a shock at the time, though having lectured in Cold War history, the thing that strikes the most is the actual inevitability of that collapse, certainly from 1979 and probably even earlier. The actual surprise is not that it happened, but that nobody really predicted it.
i remember designing a resource simulation game, splitting the class into two blocs...about 10 mins into the game, one of the Soviet players would look at me and say something like, "but, sir, this is unfair. There's no way we can win this." Yep!


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## Zarithar (Jan 4, 2022)

It's a beautiful boxed set. My only gripe is that they did not include a starter scenario of some sort to familiarize the GM with the rules. I'd love to see some sort of quick start adventure.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Jan 4, 2022)

Grendel_Khan said:


> Getting shot in 4e Twilight 2000 sucks very much. Most characters probably can't take more than two rifle rounds before getting incapacitated. What's great, though, is that you don't _have_ to get hyper-specific about the exact nature of the wound unless it's a critical injury, meaning (in most cases) if it does more damage than usual to a given location because you rolled more than one success to hit. In that case you break out the table and roll to see how bad it is, how often you'll have to save against death (could be once per turn, once ever few minutes, or once every handful of hours), whether you can move or be moved without rolling to die again, etc. So it has that ability to get really detailed and gnarly, but you don't have to do it every time you're hit. There are notable exceptions, like with sniper rifles, where hitting anyone in an unarmored location will always do a crit injury. And aiming for the head doesn't do more damage--it means if you do get a crit injury, it's more likely to be lethal.
> 
> And, importantly, the rules note that GMs should probably skip most of that stuff for regular NPCs--a crit injury in those cases should just take them out of the fight. You could always ignore that and do crit table rolls whenever they apply. But in my experience having those tables ready for major NPCs, but letting crit injuries just turn others into casualties, works great.
> 
> As a fan of realistic gun combat rules, but someone who's also watched hardcore systems grind to a halt at the altar of realism, I can't recommend these rules more highly. Such a smart blend of streamlined mechanics and gritty consequences.



We were playing it a few years ago after not having picked it up in 20 years or more.  It took us one gun fight to get back into the mindset of, don't get into random gun fights, don't get into gun fights where you haven't given yourself as much of an "unfair" advantage as you can.  Opening session fight had a shot to the head of a PC and that was all she wrote for him.  My SGT got a body shot that put him out of action for several weeks a couple sessions later.  So we made up backup characters while some healed and some were replaced and kept on trucking. 

I think I'll end up grabbing this.  The local miniature market location has it for 42.99 and I've got some points to spend.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Jan 4, 2022)

Flexor the Mighty! said:


> I think I'll end up grabbing this.  The local miniature market location has it for 42.99 and I've got some points to spend.




Better use them while you can. Never know what changes will happen since Asmodee bought the company.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Jan 4, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Better use them while you can. Never know what changes will happen since Asmodee bought the company.



I didn't know that.  Their two local brick and mortar stores are pretty good and host a lot of card, war, and rpg games.


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## lyle.spade (Jan 4, 2022)

Zarithar said:


> It's a beautiful boxed set. My only gripe is that they did not include a starter scenario of some sort to familiarize the GM with the rules. I'd love to see some sort of quick start adventure.



Good point - a short intro adventure would have pushed it into the stratosphere for quality. However, given the maps and encounter cards you could easily assemble a series of encounters and just see how the players respond as they run away from their collapsing division.


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## lyle.spade (Jan 4, 2022)

For the good of the thread: the next episode on my gaming podcast (publishing tomorrow, 5 JAN) is about T2K - initial reaction and an initial commentary on the combat system. I have a guest cohost for this episode (my regular cohost wasn't available to record), and he weighed in with his combat experience in Iraq and work in law enforcement, adding to my experience in the Army. Spoiler: the combat system lines up plausible decisions.









						Fluff N Crunch • A podcast on Anchor
					

Two longtime gamers, one from America and the other England, discuss tabletop roleplaying games, with a focus on how story, setting, and system can work together, and how sometimes they don't. We talk about 2d20 games, 5e, review books and resources, and share advice from our years of gaming to...




					anchor.fm


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## Fenhorn (Jan 5, 2022)

Zarithar said:


> It's a beautiful boxed set. My only gripe is that they did not include a starter scenario of some sort to familiarize the GM with the rules. I'd love to see some sort of quick start adventure.



There are four scenarios in the Referees Manual. So just let the players travel a day or two and use some encounters and then play one the scenarios or you can just one of the scenario sites be the first hex they come to.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Jan 5, 2022)

lyle.spade said:


> For the good of the thread: the next episode on my gaming podcast (publishing tomorrow, 5 JAN) is about T2K - initial reaction and an initial commentary on the combat system. I have a guest cohost for this episode (my regular cohost wasn't available to record), and he weighed in with his combat experience in Iraq and work in law enforcement, adding to my experience in the Army. Spoiler: the combat system lines up plausible decisions.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's cool. I hate miniature war games that are "gamey", they don't really force you to make sound tactical decisions that represent combat in the period of interest, its more about knowing when to flip the gamer card or activate the special powers.  Part of why I love Chain of Command over Bolt Action.  So if this falls in that "realism" category I'll dig it.


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## MGibster (Jan 5, 2022)

GuyBoy said:


> Detente was more late 70s than 80s, so I guess that's a typo.



It wasn't a typo it was me not keeping track of one period of lessening tension from another.  



GuyBoy said:


> The rapid collapse of the Soviet Union (and the whole WP) was certainly a shock at the time, though having lectured in Cold War history, the thing that strikes the most is the actual inevitability of that collapse, certainly from 1979 and probably even earlier. The actual surprise is not that it happened, but that nobody really predicted it.



And now I'm thinking of the Soviet Union as the TSR of modern nations.  The more I've learned the more I can't figure out how those guys stayed in business for so long.  On another note, the more I've learned about Poland the more I think it's a great choice for a Twilight 2000 campaign setting.  The Poles weren't exactly happy to fall under the Soviet umbrella after WWII and even forty years later were pushing for independence.  I can totally see them saying, "Screw it, we're out!"  


Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Since there is zero clues in your post about whether you are being sarcastic or just never heard of the movie:



  The original was such a product of its time I just didn't see any reason to watch it.  When I found out they remake replaced their original Chinese invaders with North Koreans that was just the final nail in the coffin.  

I think the biggest problem with Twilight 2000 for my group is that it's just so bleak and the last few years haven't been great.  They'll prefer to play games with a lighter heart for a while I think.


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## billd91 (Jan 5, 2022)

MGibster said:


> And now I'm thinking of the Soviet Union as the TSR of modern nations.  The more I've learned the more I can't figure out how those guys stayed in business for so long.



The Soviet experience - both during the war when it's economic base and manpower were being shredded and afterwards with its longevity - illustrates how systems can endure on a lot less than we think, particularly with a population inured to varying levels of deprivation compared to our relatively cushy lives. I can't remember the title, but I was reading a text looking into how much mind-boggling destruction the Soviet Union had experienced at the hands of the Germans and yet managed to not just hang on but obliterate most of the Wehrmacht. They shot past most other points the historians expected other states would have collapsed.


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## Ravenbrook (Jan 5, 2022)

I would think that the situation in such a game would be similar to China in the 1920s: a bunch of warlords vying with each other for power. 
Btw, how does the game deal with the fact that the Soviets planned to use tactical nukes if there was a war in Europe? Simply ignore it?


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## lyle.spade (Jan 5, 2022)

Flexor the Mighty! said:


> That's cool. I hate miniature war games that are "gamey", they don't really force you to make sound tactical decisions that represent combat in the period of interest, its more about knowing when to flip the gamer card or activate the special powers.  Part of why I love Chain of Command over Bolt Action.  So if this falls in that "realism" category I'll dig it.



Spot-on perspective - yeah; me, too. A good system does more than resolve tasks when success is not assured: it models a certain vibe. This system does that, without getting nutty like Phoenix Command tried to.


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## MGibster (Jan 5, 2022)

Ravenbrook said:


> Btw, how does the game deal with the fact that the Soviets planned to use tactical nukes if there was a war in Europe? Simply ignore it?



Both the Soviets and the US ended up using tactical nukes in Europe as well as on each other.  Your characters might have to watch their radiation levels.


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## lyle.spade (Jan 5, 2022)

MGibster said:


> Both the Soviets and the US ended up using tactical nukes in Europe as well as on each other.  Your characters might have to watch their radiation levels.



Yep...in fact, some of the random encounter cards address this, one in the form of an irradiated impact crater if I remember it correctly. There are rules for dealing with radiation exposure, too.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Jan 5, 2022)

Ravenbrook said:


> I would think that the situation in such a game would be similar to China in the 1920s: a bunch of warlords vying with each other for power.
> Btw, how does the game deal with the fact that the Soviets planned to use tactical nukes if there was a war in Europe? Simply ignore it?



In 1e there was a map showing all the nukage in Poland as a LOT of tactical nukes, and some strategic nukes, were used by both sides.  I hope this is the same.  It  just never slid into full "empty the ICBM silos" warfare.  But Europe and the USA, along with the Soviet Union, were pretty devastated in the aftermath.  The modules for 1e eventually began to focus on the characters who had made it home, and were living in a fractured USA that pretty much existed in name only with multiple groups claiming to be the real government.  Looking forward to reading the background for this edition so see how it varies from the original.


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## Grendel_Khan (Jan 5, 2022)

lyle.spade said:


> For the good of the thread: the next episode on my gaming podcast (publishing tomorrow, 5 JAN) is about T2K - initial reaction and an initial commentary on the combat system. I have a guest cohost for this episode (my regular cohost wasn't available to record), and he weighed in with his combat experience in Iraq and work in law enforcement, adding to my experience in the Army. Spoiler: the combat system lines up plausible decisions.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm a listener--started because I've been playing 2d20 for about a year, but I like the non-2d20 discussions too--so I'm excited you're doing an ep on this one!


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## lyle.spade (Jan 5, 2022)

Grendel_Khan said:


> I'm a listener--started because I've been playing 2d20 for about a year, but I like the non-2d20 discussions too--so I'm excited you're doing an ep on this one!



Thank you! I appreciate it.


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## Teo Twawki (Jan 5, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Since there is zero clues in your post about whether you are being sarcastic or just never heard of the movie:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The clues are most certainly there.


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## Paragon Lost (Jan 6, 2022)

MGibster said:


> I grew up in the 80s, spent some time in West German actually, and that might be one of the reasons I'm hesitant to purchase _Twilight 2000_.  My father was in the US Army, and I remember on occasion he'd get a call and he'd have to go out on maneuvers as part of preparing for a Soviet invasion that thankfully never came.   I remember seeing tanks in small German towns, soldiers going places, and propaganda left in our mail from those unhappy with a US presence.  I remember a soldier sleeping next to me while riding the metro.  (I hope someone gets that reference.)  So the game just conjures up a lot of memories for me despite having never playing it.
> 
> I've been impressed with every Free League game I've seen so far.  And I'm a bit surprised to find that I'm interested in running it.  I'm not so sure it's a game that would interest my players though.



A chance that you might have seen me in a M151, M113, M901, Bradley or sleeping in a train indeed. I did border patrol along the old West/East German and Czech borders from 83' until 92'. I kept reenlisting PDA (Present Duty Assignment) as a recon scout in the U.S. Army.  Also was a big gamer and we played a bit of Twilight 2000 1st while there along with many other tabletop rpgs. Palladium Fantasy Rpg, AD&D 1st Edition, BattleTech, GURPS, Traveller, Star Fleet Battles, RuneQuest all saw game play at the time.  

 We found ourselves tweaking the rules at the time as I recall because we knew better on some weapons, armor etc. Though honestly you'd have to be careful with that sort of tweaking since that crossed over into classified information. Where as the Twilight 2000 rpg stuff was based on public information via Janes etc. I miss Germany, it was never boring, the food and beer were great and the company wonderful.

p.s: Nice Terri Nunn/Berlin reference there.


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## MGibster (Jan 6, 2022)

Paragon Lost said:


> A chance that you might have seen me in a M151, M113, M901, Bradley or sleeping in a train indeed. I did border patrol along the old West/East German and Czech borders from 83' until 92'.



My father was working that border in the late 70s!  


Paragon Lost said:


> We found ourselves tweaking the rules at the time as I recall because we knew better on some weapons, armor etc. Though honestly you'd have to be careful with that sort of tweaking since that crossed over into classified information.



I've not read the TW: 2000 rules for any edition.  By and large, I've found most games under estimate the range and capabilities of modern firearms and designers seem to lack a full appreciation of the amount of damage heavier weapons are capable of.  Though, to be fair, I have no military experience and I suspect I lack a full appreciation myself.  I've never been near an artillery strike or witnessed firsthand how destructive a barrage from a battery of them can be.


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## Paragon Lost (Jan 6, 2022)

@MGibster  Actually those are fair points. I'd tend to agree that in my experience with real life and tabletop gaming that pans out.  Though in order to give everyone a bit more playable survivability I'm not going to take too much umbrage about it, ya know. 

 Neustadt Mountain/Camp Harris/Coburg Castle area for most of the border service, overlooking the Sonneberg plains.


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## Teo Twawki (Jan 6, 2022)

MGibster said:


> I've not read the TW: 2000 rules for any edition. By and large, I've found most games under estimate the range and capabilities of modern firearms and designers seem to lack a full appreciation of the amount of damage heavier weapons are capable of.



There are some games that get their approximation attempts correct. Delta Green, for example, has a Lethality rating for heavier weapons, where there is a percentage chance (usually decently high) that being in the blast radius outright kills a character. Personally, I think that's a more realistic depiction than rolling for xDxx damage. But I don't disagree that there are ample examples of rpgs (pun intended) where the writers base their information off whatever explosion movie they like best.



> Though, to be fair, I have no military experience and I suspect I lack a full appreciation myself. I've never been near an artillery strike or witnessed firsthand how destructive a barrage from a battery of them can be.



For my own part, while not technically active military, I lived in a city under a four-year military siege--and first played T2k while that surreality was going on--and witnessed first hand hundreds of strikes, been "danger close" to a great many, and directly under a few. And while, even at the time, I found myself calculating the percentage chance I had to avoid sniper fire while carrying water, I have never thought to calculate the damage inflicted by a 120mm shell landing in Markale market. Dice rolls in a game are never going to offer an "appreciation" for what weaponry does to a building, area, or human body. Role-playing can create a mimicry of it, such as it is, if such simulation is of interest to the group playing. It doesn't require a security clearance to do so, even if you are attempting to simulation the destruction caused by Trident missiles from an SSBN. Although, to be fair to the writers of a game that includes an exchange of nuclear weapons, there's scant actuality upon which to base damage descriptions. Aside from two horrific notable examples, there's proximity to tests, but dress rehearsals aren't ever the same as a live performance.


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## John R Davis (Jan 7, 2022)

Zarithar said:


> It's a beautiful boxed set. My only gripe is that they did not include a starter scenario of some sort to familiarize the GM with the rules. I'd love to see some sort of quick start adventure.



Mine has arrived. It is chock full of goodness. It could do with an opening scene to play just to get used to the rules BUT it is kind of open and doesn't really want to set up a starter adventure ( as it's technically a very very low prep game). 
It is quite tactical when it comes to battles and there are a lot of " rules"


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## Paragon Lost (Jan 7, 2022)

John R Davis said:


> Mine has arrived. It is chock full of goodness. It could do with an opening scene to play just to get used to the rules BUT it is kind of open and doesn't really want to set up a starter adventure ( as it's technically a very very low prep game).
> It is quite tactical when it comes to battles and there are a lot of " rules"



 Though, compared to Pathfinder/Starfinder it feels rules light in my opinion.


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## Greysword (Jan 9, 2022)

MGibster said:


> I grew up in the 80s, spent some time in West German actually, and that might be one of the reasons I'm hesitant to purchase _Twilight 2000_.  My father was in the US Army, and I remember on occasion he'd get a call and he'd have to go out on maneuvers as part of preparing for a Soviet invasion that thankfully never came.   I remember seeing tanks in small German towns, soldiers going places, and propaganda left in our mail from those unhappy with a US presence.  I remember a soldier sleeping next to me while riding the metro.  (I hope someone gets that reference.)  So the game just conjures up a lot of memories for me despite having never playing it.
> 
> I've been impressed with every Free League game I've seen so far.  And I'm a bit surprised to find that I'm interested in running it.  I'm not so sure it's a game that would interest my players though.




For what it's worth, I had these same feelings back with T2K 1st Edition.  The game seemed so... real.  So much like real life that we stopped playing after a couple of months.  We were in high school, and two of us ended up in the military.  

I had flashback feelings from the game on several occasions; one especially poignant remembrance was the first time I saw a Marine Corp LAV cross a bridge at Camp Pendleton.  Another was in Afghanistan when a group of us were walking to the DEFAC (cafeteria) and suddenly realized I was a character from the game (in camouflage in another country carrying an M16 during wartime).

Sorry for the long post.  I just wanted to share.  For the record, I backed the game on Kickstarter, as I think it's important for young gamers to maybe get the same feelings you have, for themselves, so they might understand.  I have the game, and I may not open it for these reasons.

I also want to take a moment to thank Free League for making it!


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## bedir than (Jan 9, 2022)

Greysword said:


> For what it's worth, I had these same feelings back with T2K 1st Edition. The game seemed so... real. So much like real life that we stopped playing after a couple of months. We were in high school, and two of us ended up in the military.



Four of the group of maybe seven that played Twilight: 2000 joined the Army. I often wonder how much the game opened us up to the idea.


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## aramis erak (Jan 14, 2022)

lyle.spade said:


> I am not a fan of YZE, either, and didn't back the KS because of that - I wanted to see how the modified version of the system was before spending money on it. I've played Forbidden Lands, Mutant Year Zero, and a good amount of Alien...and really don't like that mechanic, or what trappings they've added around it.
> 
> T2K's version is a massive improvement, making the system playable by providing more variability of results and more possibilities for doing things with surplus success. A buddy of mine and I have played it a few times as a skirmish game, to work out the combat rules, and it flows well and provides and, at times, incentivizes, realistic decisions.



It actually *reduces *the variability of results.
A peak character under standard YZE can have from 0 to 10 successes without tools (5 stat, 5 skill) and expects 1 2/3 successes per roll.
A peak character underT2K 4e can get 0 to 4 successes (2 each on 2d).

A typical starting character in field in standard YZE has 4 att and 3 skill, expecting 1 success, with a range of 0-7
In T2K 4, B and C thus an expectation of about 1 success, but a range of 0-3 successes.


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## aramis erak (Jan 14, 2022)

bedir than said:


> Four of the group of maybe seven that played Twilight: 2000 joined the Army. I often wonder how much the game opened us up to the idea.



Everyone in my HS group tried to join the military. Only one managed to make it through first term...


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## Paragon Lost (Jan 14, 2022)

aramis erak said:


> It actually *reduces *the variability of results.
> A peak character under standard YZE can have from 0 to 10 successes without tools (5 stat, 5 skill) and expects 1 2/3 successes per roll.
> A peak character underT2K 4e can get 0 to 4 successes (2 each on 2d).
> 
> ...



Where does The Forbidden Lands fit within those variability results in comparison?


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## aramis erak (Jan 14, 2022)

Paragon Lost said:


> Where does The Forbidden Lands fit within those variability results in comparison?



Standard YZE excepting the magic item dice, which can add up to 4 successes instead of the 1 of a standard attribute, skill, or tool die. But I didn't include tool dice in the above, since those vary more by YZE game.


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## Paragon Lost (Jan 14, 2022)

aramis erak said:


> Standard YZE excepting the magic item dice, which can add up to 4 successes instead of the 1 of a standard attribute, skill, or tool die. But I didn't include tool dice in the above, since those vary more by YZE game.



I'm not the best at figuring out the maths in the way you listed so I was really curious since the item dice can have a serious impact on the successes.


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## aramis erak (Jan 15, 2022)

Paragon Lost said:


> I'm not the best at figuring out the maths in the way you listed so I was really curious since the item dice can have a serious impact on the successes.



to figure the expected number of successes on a die (keep it in fractions; it's easier than decimals): total the number of successes on the die for the numerator, and the sides as denominator - then just add the number of dice together.
So the standard YZE d6 is 1/6 success. It adds 0 to the minimum, and 1 to the maximum. The arithmetic mean should be the same as the expected, but real world dice are not truly fair most of the time.
Comparing the dice:  [x, ..., y] brackets indicate array of sides, braces the range component. The fraction is the expected result contribution.

DieT2KFLd6[0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1] = 1/6 {0-1}[0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1] = 1/6 {0-1}d8[0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 1, 1] = 3/8 {0-1}[0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 1, 2] = 4/8 {0-2}d10[0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2] = 6/10 {0-2}[0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3] = 9/10 {0-3}d12[0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2] = 10/12 {0-2}[0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4]= 16/12 {0-4}

Note that expected result is only valid for pools or repeated rolls; it roughly corresponds to the arithmetic mean expected on the initial roll. For the expected results for a pool, just add the dice's  expected together. For the ranges, add the low ends together and add the high ends together.
With pushing, the T2K dice become
d6 [[0,0,0,0,0,0}, [0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1],[0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1],[0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1],[0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1],[1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1]] = 10/36 each (vs 6/36 unpushed)
d6 with no negative on 1 is  11/36, since the first group becomes [0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1]
d8 [[0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0], [0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 1, 1], [0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 1, 1], [0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 1, 1], [0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 1, 1], [1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1], [1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1], [1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1]] 36/64=9/16
d10: [[0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0], [0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2], [0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2], [0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2], [0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2], [1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1], [1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1], [1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1,], [1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1],[2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2]]=  76/100 =19/25
d12 [[0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0], [0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2], [0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2],[0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2],[0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2], , [1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1], [1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1], [1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1], [1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1], [2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2], [2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2], [2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2]] = (1×0)+(4×10)+(4×10)+3×20)=0+40+40+60=140/144.
Note that I'm making the inner dice reflect the final  outcome; the first die is the outer set; each reroll (or the lack thereof for 1 and 6-12 is because no reroll, hence all the possibilities are the same result as the initial die would be.

Not showing the work as detailed on all the FL dice
d6: 1/6 unpushed, 10/36 pushed
d8: 4/8=1/2 unpushed, [1×[0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0], 4×[0,0,0,0,0,1,1,2], 2×[1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1], 1×[2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2]]=(0+(4×4)+(2×8)+(1×16))/8²=48/64, = 3/4
d10: 9/10 unpushed,. [[1×[0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0], 4×[0,0,0,0,0,1,1,2,2,3], 2×[1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1, 1], 2×[2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2], 1×[3,3,3,3,3,3,3,3,3,3]]=(0+(4×9)+(2×10)+(2×20)+(1×30))/10²=(0+36+20+40+30)/100=126/100 =63/50 = 1 13/50
d12: 16/12 = 4/3 unpushed. [1×[0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0], 4×[0,0,0,0,0,1,1,2,2,3,3,4], 2×[12×1], 2×[12×2], 2×[12×3], 1×[12×4]]=(0+(4×16)+(2×12)+(2×24)+(2×36)+(1×48))/12²=(0+64+24+48+72+48)/144=256/144=16/9 = 1 7/9

*Important Note: The expected result normally doesn't tell you the odds of success. It will tell you only if you're above or below 50%...*

finding it provides the needed information to work out actual odds. As a GM, I've only needed to eyeball the odds. Is it likely they're going to succeed? At C+C, unpushed? 3/4 expectation is below the 1 needed, so likely to fail. C+B, 3/8 +6/10= 15/40+24/40= 39/40 - pretty close to 1 success, so just under 50%. Pushed C+C is 9/16+19/25... time for prime factors... LCD=400, so... (25×9)+(16×19)/400=(225+304)/400=529/400= 1 129/400. Pretty good but still plenty of chance for failure. Note the range is 0-4...

It's also a case of do the hard part once, and be able to eyeball it. In YZE games with variable numbers of successes needed, instead of variable pools, the expected result lets you eyeball very quickly. 7d? Expected= 1 1/6... but a difficulty of 2s? that's 1/6 expected. Long odds. (and not the same odds as 1d needing 1s.) It's a rough eyeball route.


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## Paragon Lost (Jan 15, 2022)

@aramis erak  Wow, fascinating. Truly appreciate you laying this out.


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## aramis erak (Jan 15, 2022)

Paragon Lost said:


> @aramis erak  Wow, fascinating. Truly appreciate you laying this out.



You're welcome.
Note also: When I work out the odds of something, I usually just brute force it in python with array loops.


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## MGibster (Jan 15, 2022)

aramis erak said:


> Note also: When I work out the odds of something, I usually just brute force it in python with array loops.



What do snakes have to do with math?


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## Bill Zebub (Jan 15, 2022)

lyle.spade said:


> I am not a fan of YZE, either, and didn't back the KS because of that -




I like YZE more (WAY more) than 2d20, and I have a lot of respect for FL, but it just rubs me wrong when a publishing company wants every game to use their core engine, regardless of setting or genre. Feels too generic.


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## Tantavalist (Jan 15, 2022)

It can feel generic in a lot of cases when that happens, yes. But in the case of YZE the system was specifically built for post-apocalyptic survival in mind, so Twilight 2000 is actually a perfect fit. Other games maybe not so much- I'm inclined to take the setting of Coriolis and run that with something else- but here it's definitely not a shoehorned system.

Since it's also designed in a way that getting highly skilled improves your chances but never 100% guarantees success, I found that Alien was also a good fit when I played that. It re-created the feeling of desperation and mortal danger that the movies had for their cast.


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## aramis erak (Jan 17, 2022)

Tantavalist said:


> It can feel generic in a lot of cases when that happens, yes. But in the case of YZE the system was specifically built for post-apocalyptic survival in mind, so Twilight 2000 is actually a perfect fit. Other games maybe not so much- I'm inclined to take the setting of Coriolis and run that with something else- but here it's definitely not a shoehorned system.
> 
> Since it's also designed in a way that getting highly skilled improves your chances but never 100% guarantees success, I found that Alien was also a good fit when I played that. It re-created the feeling of desperation and mortal danger that the movies had for their cast.



Concur on both points. 

Vaesen (not a licensed) isn't PA but is very well served by the YSE... but it's a strongly adapted core.  You won't be crossing characters from Vaesen to T2K, Alien, MYZ, or Coriolis  without some conversion efforts; different skills, subtly different attribute definitions.
Forbidden Lands is post apoc.

I will say that I feel the 4 attributes to be a flaw; it's even more noticeable when crossing from one to another, as they are subtly different. I also feel the 12 skill limit of more recent flavors also a strong negative, but it works well enough, and the system is solid.


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## MGibster (Jan 17, 2022)

I've got a big problem with the Scrounging table.  My first problem is that the size of the hex used when scrounging is the same as the travel map which is 10 kilometers.  So if a PC wants to scrounge in the area any other PC will need to go 10 kilometers away to scrounge over there which just seems ludicrous.  A 10 km hex is a *lot *of area to cover and maybe something a little more reasonable would be more appropriate.  Granted, it does take a full shift (5+ hours) to scrounge but the size of the area searched is way too big.  But I'll give some credit where credit is due.  If an item can be reasonably be expected to be found in a small location, such as a tire in a garage, then the GM can just decide it's there and it doesn't take an entire shift to search the area.  So that's nice I guess. 

An even bigger problem in my eyes is that a PC might succeed at a scrounging role and still end up with something near useless.  If you succeed at scrounging, you roll on a chart and may get something like a credit card, a movie poster, or a teddy bear all of which are pretty much useless in that they're worth almost nothing in trade and don't provide you with a piece of useful equipment.  At least an electric guitar or a vacuum cleaner can provide you with electronic/general parts that can be applied to other projects.  I would have to advise a player not to invest their points in the Scrounging skill because I think they're going to be disappointed.  I mean, damn, you can find a wallet full of moldy cash.  On a successful scrounging roll.


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## HorusZA (Jan 17, 2022)

MGibster said:


> I've got a big problem with the Scrounging table.  My first problem is that the size of the hex used when scrounging is the same as the travel map which is 10 kilometers.  So if a PC wants to scrounge in the area any other PC will need to go 10 kilometers away to scrounge over there which just seems ludicrous.  A 10 km hex is a *lot *of area to cover and maybe something a little more reasonable would be more appropriate.  Granted, it does take a full shift (5+ hours) to scrounge but the size of the area searched is way too big.  But I'll give some credit where credit is due.  If an item can be reasonably be expected to be found in a small location, such as a tire in a garage, then the GM can just decide it's there and it doesn't take an entire shift to search the area.  So that's nice I guess.
> 
> An even bigger problem in my eyes is that a PC might succeed at a scrounging role and still end up with something near useless.  If you succeed at scrounging, you roll on a chart and may get something like a credit card, a movie poster, or a teddy bear all of which are pretty much useless in that they're worth almost nothing in trade and don't provide you with a piece of useful equipment.  At least an electric guitar or a vacuum cleaner can provide you with electronic/general parts that can be applied to other projects.  I would have to advise a player not to invest their points in the Scrounging skill because I think they're going to be disappointed.  I mean, damn, you can find a wallet full of moldy cash.  On a successful scrounging roll.




I completely agree.
The scrounging and hunting tables could use a do-over for sure.
My group found it hard to believe that after searching an urban hex (87km^2) for four hours all they found was a credit card? We also discovered that there is only a single Vehicle Spare Parts entry on the Scrounging Table. Are there really no cars, trucks, disabled military vehicles, etc. left to be stripped of useful parts?

Another feature of the Scrounging Table that caused some head-scratching in my game were the miscellaneous items that come with some kind of bonus. For example: "Frying Pan: +1 to Cooking" or "Tire Iron: +1 Tech". Does this mean the party is currently cooking without a frying pan or that their Jeep doesn't have a tire iron in the boot? If they are assumed to have those items (or something similar), can they get those bonuses normally?


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Jan 17, 2022)

Picking up my copy today.  Looking forward to giving it a good read over and then running a skirmish to get a feel for the new rules.


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## MGibster (Jan 17, 2022)

HorusZA said:


> My group found it hard to believe that after searching an urban hex (87km^2) for four hours all they found was a credit card? We also discovered that there is only a single Vehicle Spare Parts entry on the Scrounging Table. Are there really no cars, trucks, disabled military vehicles, etc. left to be stripped of useful parts?



I think urban areas are supposed to be mapped on in 1 km hexes instead of 10.  And the rules for scrounging does mention that the referee can decide what item you find instead of having you roll on the table so that's something I guess.  If the PCs come across a battlefield strewn with disabled vehicles here and there I'd probably let them find vehicle, electronic, and weapon parts by searching.  Since fuel has been low to non-existent for more than a year, I imagine there are vehicles all over the place just sitting in towns, farms, and abandoned on the roadside and people fled as far as their limited fuel would take them.  And I can't find it now, but I think the PCs can search smaller areas like a farmhouse without having to spend their whole shift scrounging.  

I get what they're trying to do with the scrounging rules.  There's only so many hours in the day and time is a resource that needs to be managed just as your food, ammunition, and fuel does.  But I feel like any player who makes a character with a skill emphasis in scrounging is going to be sorely disappointed with the rules as written.  I'll have to fix it before I run the game.


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## Grendel_Khan (Jan 17, 2022)

HorusZA said:


> Another feature of the Scrounging Table that caused some head-scratching in my game were the miscellaneous items that come with some kind of bonus. For example: "Frying Pan: +1 to Cooking" or "Tire Iron: +1 Tech". Does this mean the party is currently cooking without a frying pan or that their Jeep doesn't have a tire iron in the boot? If they are assumed to have those items (or something similar), can they get those bonuses normally?




I think you might be overthinking it a bit. Maybe the frying pan they found is bigger or of a better quality, and the vehicle they were already using was a previously stripped repair job without a tire iron or similar tools. A lot of the system is about straddling the line between simulation and streamlining, so if you find a neat little thing while scrounging or looting, it can just be a neat little thing that gives a narrow, conditional bonus.


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## Bill Zebub (Jan 17, 2022)

Grendel_Khan said:


> I think you might be overthinking it a bit. Maybe the frying pan they found is bigger or of a better quality




It’s a _+1 Pan of Frying_, or even _Colonel Sander’s Lost Skillet_. Duh.


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## MGibster (Jan 18, 2022)

Grendel_Khan said:


> I think you might be overthinking it a bit. Maybe the frying pan they found is bigger or of a better quality, and the vehicle they were already using was a previously stripped repair job without a tire iron or similar tools. A lot of the system is about straddling the line between simulation and streamlining, so if you find a neat little thing while scrounging or looting, it can just be a neat little thing that gives a narrow, conditional bonus.



I appreciate that it's abstract to a point.  I'm perfectly fine with spare parts being electrical, general, or weapon because that's just less fiddly paperwork for everyone.  But how exactly does a tire iron give you a +1 tech roll to automobiles?  Is it a magical tire iron?  Does it give you a +1 to _all_ tech rolls related to the automobile?  Since the cooking skill is about more than making an appetizing meal, it includes skinning, cleaning, and preparing the food in a safe manner, I could certainly see equipment adding a bonus to the roll.  And odds are good the PCs aren't in possession of good cooking equipment at the end of Operation Reset.  I'd probably change the description from frying pan to some sort of camping equipment.


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## Paragon Lost (Jan 18, 2022)

@HorusZA @MGibster  I'll agree that the scrounging tables and information feel a bit lacking. I'd honestly just use them as a baseline and then build upon it depending on the area. In the end I think they gave us good ideas and then it's up to us to build upon them as needed. I'd design scrounging tables based on an area/location because not all areas will be the same. Also I don't mind the 10k search areas as long as the GM would allow multiple people to search with some sort of multiplier to your chances to find things.

  I like the idea that mentioned above about them being 1k areas instead, but I'd adapt it as GM that would allow up to 10 people to search that same 10k grid.  Really I never liked that you had to limit how many could scavenge/search an idea in any of Free Leagues games and I were running any of them I'd tweak it.


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## MGibster (Jan 18, 2022)

Paragon Lost said:


> I like the idea that mentioned above about them being 1k areas instead, but I'd adapt it as GM that would allow up to 10 people to search that same 10k grid. Really I never liked that you had to limit how many could scavenge/search an idea in any of Free Leagues games and I were running any of them I'd tweak it.



I think one of the ideas is that they don't want PCs to get too comfortable sticking around one hex for a extended period of time.  Unless they've established a semi-permanent base of course.  And since the situation has been in declination for a few years, it makes sense that the pickings are slim so far as scrounging goes.  People have been scrounging in that area for a few years at the point the campaign begins so pickings will be slim.

In a Deadlands Hell on Earth campaign, we had one session where several people made phenomenal scrounging rolls.  One PC found a motorbike, another found a HMMWV, and a third found some sort of regular weapon all on the same day.  The PC who had invested the most in salvaging found a tube of toothpaste.  She rolled the best but the results of her find was a tube of toothpaste.  Years later I still bring it up telling her she finds a tube of toothpaste when looting a body.


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## Paragon Lost (Jan 18, 2022)

lol I bet she annoyed. I know I'd have been. lol.


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## MGibster (Jan 18, 2022)

Okay, this might sound odd.  Am I missing where the statistics are for the average soldier, marauder, civilian, etc., etc.?


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Jan 18, 2022)

On first look this is defiantly a different game than earlier editions.  Far more RP emphasis with buddies and unit morale and that.   I like the character generation takes a cue from Traveller.  Need to read though the combat system more and get a better handle on the dice.  Never been a fan of games with specialty dice, aka die with funny symbols on them, but it looks like the rest of the table can use use regular dice.  Nice package, though part of me wishes I could get a hardback version.  Need to get a pdf as well.  So far so good.


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## Charles Dunwoody (Jan 18, 2022)

​



*Urban Operations Announced for Twilight: 2000 RPG*​



*Free League today announced Urban Operations, the first expansion for the recently released new edition of RPG classic Twilight: 2000. *

_Twilight: 2000 - Urban Operations_ is a modular expansion focused on cities. The expansion is loosely based on the classic module _Free City of Krakow _for the first edition of _Twilight: 2000 RPG,_ but designed to be used in any city environment. Krakow is described in it as one example town, another being Karlsborg in Sweden.

The expansion will include guidelines for playing in cities, new factions, new scenario sites, and introduce several plots to create longer story arcs. It will be a boxed set with a scenario book, city maps, scenario site maps, modular battle maps for urban environments, and new encounter cards for urban environments.

A pre-order will be launched in the Free League webshop in Q1. Pre-orders will give instant access to the full PDF of the expansion, ahead of the physical release in Q3 2022.


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## Grendel_Khan (Jan 18, 2022)

MGibster said:


> Okay, this might sound odd.  Am I missing where the statistics are for the average soldier, marauder, civilian, etc., etc.?



P. 37 of the Referee's Manual.



MGibster said:


> I appreciate that it's abstract to a point.  I'm perfectly fine with spare parts being electrical, general, or weapon because that's just less fiddly paperwork for everyone.  But how exactly does a tire iron give you a +1 tech roll to automobiles?  Is it a magical tire iron?  Does it give you a +1 to _all_ tech rolls related to the automobile?  Since the cooking skill is about more than making an appetizing meal, it includes skinning, cleaning, and preparing the food in a safe manner, I could certainly see equipment adding a bonus to the roll.  And odds are good the PCs aren't in possession of good cooking equipment at the end of Operation Reset.  I'd probably change the description from frying pan to some sort of camping equipment.



Seeing as most of the Tech rolls you make related to vehicles are to keep them running or fix them when they break down, I'd assume that's a bonus to general repairs and maintenance. It's similar to how some games abstract tools, or make some items a one-time bonus (like in The Between or many Forged in the Dark games), even though in a strictly simulationist way that doesn't make sense. The alternative, after all, would be to blow out the word count, make tables unwieldy, and have lots of subsystems tied to various types of tools. Some like like a tire iron is just a suggestion, a narrative nudge. And if a player said they want to use the tire iron to add armor to a car or something, you can just point out that it doesn't make sense, and move on.

I know we all know how to GM and how to say no. I just think it's important to meet a game where it is, and specifically in what it's trying to do. This version of Twilight 2000 is trying to avoid sweating all of the small stuff, or falling into simulationist rabbit holes. It's on a slightly more narrative, story-game-ish wavelength. One of the biggest pitfalls of survival-based games, in my experience, is when they become an arena for dueling armchair expertise--folks trying to apply lots of real-world, out-of-game knowledge to the situation. Worse still, some games with a survival focus bury you in rules based on the authors' own supposed expertise. And previous T2K editions, intentionally or not, often fed into that dynamic, or at least didn't head it off. One of the things I really like about this edition, though, is where and when and how it zooms out and abstracts certain things. Like the fact that you make a Driving roll to see if you have a mishap during a given amount of travel time--it's not meant to be a literal test of your ability to keep the vehicle on the road. It's a more general, narrative mechanic, to see if something goes wrong. Likewise, a lot of the survival stuff is pretty zoomed out, but still needs to be tracked. Only to an extent, though. There's a certain amount of boardgamey-ness to this edition, which I wouldn't like in every setting or system, but I think works well to cut to the chase, which is when you have to interact with other humans. Everything between those interactions, to me, is just about what sort of state you're in--what your current priorities and goals are, as well as your physical condition--when it's time to talk, fight, negotiate, etc.


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## Grendel_Khan (Jan 18, 2022)

Flexor the Mighty! said:


> Never been a fan of games with specialty dice, aka die with funny symbols on them, but it looks like the rest of the table can use use regular dice.  Nice package, though part of me wishes I could get a hardback version.  Need to get a pdf as well.  So far so good.




I don't typically like specialty dice either, but the ones they created for this game are absolutely great. They're what made me a physical backer, and after using them (both in person and on Foundry) I can't recommend them highly enough. They do a ton of stuff, so fast, and not in a reading-the-tea-leaves FFG sort of way. Just tons of stuff resolved and easily read at once. One handful of dice tells you if you hit or just suppressed, where you hit, how many bullets you used (or in the case of NPCs, if it's time for them to reload). You could do all of that with standard dice of various colors, but it'll take longer to sort the results, and feel less visceral.

I'm not saying you should pick up the dice before checking out the game. But if you like the PDFs enough to want to run it, really don't sleep on those dice.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Jan 18, 2022)

Grendel_Khan said:


> I don't typically like specialty dice either, but the ones they created for this game are absolutely great. They're what made me a physical backer, and after using them (both in person and on Foundry) I can't recommend them highly enough. They do a ton of stuff, so fast, and not in a reading-the-tea-leaves FFG sort of way. Just tons of stuff resolved and easily read at once. One handful of dice tells you if you hit or just suppressed, where you hit, how many bullets you used (or in the case of NPCs, if it's time for them to reload). You could do all of that with standard dice of various colors, but it'll take longer to sort the results, and feel less visceral.
> 
> I'm not saying you should pick up the dice before checking out the game. But if you like the PDFs enough to want to run it, really don't sleep on those dice.



The odds of my players buying specialty dice is minimal but as long as we can work around it with normal dice we will be okay.  I've got the box set so I've got a set so that's fine.  The main question is will my group that came up on late 70's/early 80's gaming prefer this to 1e and then will more than one of the cheap bastards actually buy a book.


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## Grendel_Khan (Jan 18, 2022)

Flexor the Mighty! said:


> The odds of my players buying specialty dice is minimal but as long as we can work around it with normal dice we will be okay.  I've got the box set so I've got a set so that's fine.  The main question is will my group that came up on late 70's/early 80's gaming prefer this to 1e and then will more than one of the cheap bastards actually buy a book.



Very good questions. 

And if you're playing in person I don't think you need more than one set of dice for it--we were good with just what was in the box set. But obviously a different situation if your group is online/remote.


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## Grendel_Khan (Jan 18, 2022)

Seems relevant to the thread:









						Free League Launches 'Urban Operations'
					

In New 'Twilight: 2000' Boxed Set




					icv2.com


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## MGibster (Jan 19, 2022)

Grendel_Khan said:


> P. 37 of the Referee's Manual.



I knew it was in there I just couldn't find it.  



Grendel_Khan said:


> Seeing as most of the Tech rolls you make related to vehicles are to keep them running or fix them when they break down, I'd assume that's a bonus to general repairs and maintenance. It's similar to how some games abstract tools, or make some items a one-time bonus (like in The Between or many Forged in the Dark games), even though in a strictly simulationist way that doesn't make sense. The alternative, after all, would be to blow out the word count, make tables unwieldy, and have lots of subsystems tied to various types of tools. Some like like a tire iron is just a suggestion, a narrative nudge.



They could have avoided this if they just listed "Tools" instead of a tire iron.  It's a minor gripe though.


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## Grendel_Khan (Jan 19, 2022)

MGibster said:


> I knew it was in there I just couldn't find it.



To be honest, it's not listed very clearly, and I don't believe it's in the table of contents--when I was running I kept losing track of the page.



MGibster said:


> They could have avoided this if they just listed "Tools" instead of a tire iron.  It's a minor gripe though.




A good point, though I'd say it should be more like "tool," as in singular, something that implies it's a narrow aid, not a general one. That way if you roll it multiple times, and the GM doesn't want to replace it entirely, it could be some other useful tool or spare part.

Since I only ran a few sessions, and using the core framework (NATO soldiers in Poland looking for some way home) I did wonder how useful the various tables and encounters would be if you were to alter the premise, and especially if you ran a single campaign for a long time. My hunch is that if, say, the PCs managed to get to the U.S. or similar, you'd have to leave most of that material behind, or maybe grab some previous-edition books and do whatever conversions are necessary. But stuff like table-based scrounging would, I imagine, get old and a little silly in an extended campaign. Eventually things would have to shift to a different kind of story.

In other words, I see the scrounging table and random encounters as sort of a disposable, early-game resource, so even if some stuff seems odd or too specific as a general world-building tool, you probably won't be using it for long.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Jan 19, 2022)

Seems like the whole hex crawl aspect of this is a big part of it.  Which isn't bad mind you. I haven't had time to fully read it, just flip though, but it seems to be a bit skirmish game, as well as a RPG.   The core dice mechanics remind me of some miniatures games I have.  But those may be more common in modern RPG than I'm aware of.  Unfortunately this is making me want to add more miniatures to my collection for this game, which leads to terrain, etc.


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## Grendel_Khan (Jan 19, 2022)

Flexor the Mighty! said:


> Seems like the whole hex crawl aspect of this is a big part of it.  Which isn't bad mind you. I haven't had time to fully read it, just flip though, but it seems to be a bit skirmish game, as well as a RPG.   The core dice mechanics remind me of some miniatures games I have.  But those may be more common in modern RPG than I'm aware of.  Unfortunately this is making me want to add more miniatures to my collection for this game, which leads to terrain, etc.




I'm sure you could minifig it up, but since each hex is something like 10 meters, you'd need to go for some real small minifigs.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Jan 19, 2022)

Scales can easily be adjusted in most games, I'm assuming that is the case in this.  Change combat encounter hexes to 2m or something, go off a dry erase hex map with building and stuff, or ditch hex maps and use my wargaming matts and buildings with tape measures.  Would depend on the scale, 15/20/28mm. I've already got some WW2 European buildings that would work fine.  I need to read the entire ruleset first before making any changes but I can't see staying attached to those small maps and counters.


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## MGibster (Jan 20, 2022)

Flexor the Mighty! said:


> Scales can easily be adjusted in most games, I'm assuming that is the case in this. Change combat encounter hexes to 2m or something, go off a dry erase hex map with building and stuff, or ditch hex maps and use my wargaming matts and buildings with tape measures. Would depend on the scale, 15/20/28mm. I've already got some WW2 European buildings that would work fine. I need to read the entire ruleset first before making any changes but I can't see staying attached to those small maps and counters.



I thought about miniatures.  If you're going with 2m hexes, the short rage of an M-16 would be 25 hexes (50 meters).  I don't know about your table top situation, but for me, at that scale, I don't have enough room.  So for practicality, I'm thinking 15mm but I'm not sure how well that works out either though.  I found it somewhat difficult to find appropriate 28mm miniatures for a 1990s Cold War setting (plenty for WW II) but there are some good modern 15mm ranges with vehicles and soldiers from the United States and the Soviet Union.


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## aramis erak (Jan 20, 2022)

HorusZA said:


> I completely agree.
> The scrounging and hunting tables could use a do-over for sure.
> My group found it hard to believe that after searching an urban hex (87km^2) for four hours all they found was a credit card? We also discovered that there is only a single Vehicle Spare Parts entry on the Scrounging Table. Are there really no cars, trucks, disabled military vehicles, etc. left to be stripped of useful parts?
> 
> Another feature of the Scrounging Table that caused some head-scratching in my game were the miscellaneous items that come with some kind of bonus. For example: "Frying Pan: +1 to Cooking" or "Tire Iron: +1 Tech". Does this mean the party is currently cooking without a frying pan or that their Jeep doesn't have a tire iron in the boot? If they are assumed to have those items (or something similar), can they get those bonuses normally?



1 - spares - the ones not stripped are pretty much still in service, you get them from encounters, not scrounging.

2 - cooking  gear - US troops only have their canteen cups and a cheap mess kit (No longer the canteen, even, since it went plastic about the time I was in.)  US rations are made so  all you need is hot water... The mess kit has a knife, fork, spoon, 5×8×1/2 inch tin skillet, and matching two-well plate. Post 2002, they even dropped the mess kit. (Personal carry is still allowed, but it's not issue)
So any real cooking gear is better than issued.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Jan 20, 2022)

MGibster said:


> I thought about miniatures.  If you're going with 2m hexes, the short rage of an M-16 would be 25 hexes (50 meters).  I don't know about your table top situation, but for me, at that scale, I don't have enough room.  So for practicality, I'm thinking 15mm but I'm not sure how well that works out either though.  I found it somewhat difficult to find appropriate 28mm miniatures for a 1990s Cold War setting (plenty for WW II) but there are some good modern 15mm ranges with vehicles and soldiers from the United States and the Soviet Union.



15mm Team Yankee stuff would be good.


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## Greysword (Feb 2, 2022)

Hold on to your hats, kids, and grab your copy of Twilight 2000 now, as we are escalating toward this being viable!


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## sgtnasty (Feb 3, 2022)

eyeheartawk said:


> I grew up in West Germany as well, in a border town with France and I recall many times our lessons in our little village school would get interrupted by massive American, German, French and British convoys on the way to and from exercises to simulate the inevitable Soviet invasion of the Fulda Gap. Imagine trying to learn your multiplication tables with tanks and self propelled guns on trailers rolling by.



Oh the Fulda Gap, so many memories cross training to 13F. T2k was THE rpg to play back then and GDW made the game feel so much like it was in the Army.


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## MGibster (Feb 3, 2022)

I wish recent news didn't make this game seem so relevant today.  



aramis erak said:


> 1 - spares - the ones not stripped are pretty much still in service, you get them from encounters, not scrounging.



I wouldn't have a problem with this if they didn't have a Scrounging skill.  It's just a trap an unsuspecting player can fall into thinking, "Oh, boy!  I'll be the guy whose good at finding stuff!" only to spend their skill points and find out that no matter how good they roll they'll hardly find anything of use.


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## aramis erak (Feb 3, 2022)

MGibster said:


> I wish recent news didn't make this game seem so relevant today.
> 
> 
> I wouldn't have a problem with this if they didn't have a Scrounging skill.  It's just a trap an unsuspecting player can fall into thinking, "Oh, boy!  I'll be the guy whose good at finding stuff!" only to spend their skill points and find out that no matter how good they roll they'll hardly find anything of use.



My players found things of use. Things on the scrounging table are repairable, but aren't spares. It's just a matter of what one is looking for and why...


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Feb 4, 2022)

So once a character is incapacitated you can just kill him with a shot right?  No damage rolls?  Assuming you fail your empathy test.


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## MGibster (Feb 4, 2022)

Flexor the Mighty! said:


> So once a character is incapacitated you can just kill him with a shot right? No damage rolls? Assuming you fail your empathy test.



That's pretty much how I'd rule it.  We're only supposed to roll when it's dramatically appropriate and in this case it seems as though the roll that leads to the most drama is Empathy.  I'm assuming the PC wanting to do the killing is up close and personal with the target.  If they were in another hex I'd require a Ranged Weapon or Mobility (grenade) roll.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Feb 5, 2022)

Yeah, I was just running a solo test combat to get a handle on the rules and after incapacitating a target the other guy firing on that same target hit him but I wasn’t sure if I had to roll or what.  Not sure I agree with some of the weapons stats in this game.  A 5.45x39 AK-74 has a better range than a 5.56X45 M16?  I don’t think so.  But so far the game looks cool.  I enjoy the Travelleresque PC creation.


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## Paragon Lost (Feb 5, 2022)

Flexor the Mighty! said:


> Yeah, I was just running a solo test combat to get a handle on the rules and after incapacitating a target the other guy firing on that same target hit him but I wasn’t sure if I had to roll or what.  Not sure I agree with some of the weapons stats in this game.  A 5.45x39 AK-74 has a better range than a 5.56X45 M16?  I don’t think so.  But so far the game looks cool.  I enjoy the Travelleresque PC creation.



That's a good point the M-16 effective range is better than the AK-74 by nice bit, as is the maximum range as well. Though the effective range is the important number.


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## MGibster (Feb 5, 2022)

Flexor the Mighty! said:


> Yeah, I was just running a solo test combat to get a handle on the rules and after incapacitating a target the other guy firing on that same target hit him but I wasn’t sure if I had to roll or what. Not sure I agree with some of the weapons stats in this game. A 5.45x39 AK-74 has a better range than a 5.56X45 M16? I don’t think so. But so far the game looks cool. I enjoy the Travelleresque PC creation.





Depending on which version of the M-16 we're talking about, the range is the same in the game.  

AK74 - Range:  6 (effective range 500m according to Wikipedia)

M16A1 - Range:  5  (effective range 550m according to Wikipedia)  
M16A2 - Range 6 (also an effective range of 550m according to other sources)


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## aramis erak (Feb 5, 2022)

Flexor the Mighty! said:


> So once a character is incapacitated you can just kill him with a shot right?  No damage rolls?  Assuming you fail your empathy test.



Yeah. You have to fail that Emp test, or you can't pull the trigger.  Essentially, the Empathy roll replaces the to hit roll.


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## MGibster (Feb 6, 2022)

As a GM, I'm pretty sure there's going to come a situation where a PC runs across an enemy who isn't incapacitated but is essentially helpless.  Think of a sleeping soldier.  Rules as written, killing the sleeping soldier shouldn't be a problem because incapacitation is specifically defined as the state a character is in when their damage is equal to or greater than their hit capacity.  Or what if they just have a prisoner who is unarmed and offering no resistance?  Rules as written, he's not incapacitated.  But the rules on page 73 also say, "Killing in cold blood is not easy."  I can just see a player complaining that the GM makes them roll Empathy to kill a prisoner.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Feb 6, 2022)

So if you unload a M16 on a foe and roll 6 ammo dice and get a bunch of extra hits.  So suppose you get a 3 point hit that is reduced by 1 by armor.  So that is 2 hits.  The target had hit capacity of 4.  So they are at 2.  One of the ammo dice is a separate hit and hits a leg for 2.  Now the target has matched his hit capacity and becomes incapacitated correct?  But there are two more ammo dice to resolve, so you get another 2 point hit on the arm and a head hit for 2.  Are both those fatal?


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Feb 6, 2022)

MGibster said:


> As a GM, I'm pretty sure there's going to come a situation where a PC runs across an enemy who isn't incapacitated but is essentially helpless.  Think of a sleeping soldier.  Rules as written, killing the sleeping soldier shouldn't be a problem because incapacitation is specifically defined as the state a character is in when their damage is equal to or greater than their hit capacity.  Or what if they just have a prisoner who is unarmed and offering no resistance?  Rules as written, he's not incapacitated.  But the rules on page 73 also say, "Killing in cold blood is not easy."  I can just see a player complaining that the GM makes them roll Empathy to kill a prisoner.



One of the guys in my group is already approaching this like its Mad Max and is pretty much saying we need to become kill crazy madmen now and loot anyone we come across that has stuff we need.  I know he is going to complain mightily about having to fail and EMP roll to delivery a finishing shot.   I’ll tell him to spend the 10 exp when he can to get “the thousand yard stare”.


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## gamerprinter (Feb 9, 2022)

I bought the original Twilight 2000, back in day, and really only managed to run the starter module - Free City of Krakow, and sort of homebrewed beyond for short while. But I did purchase all the modules up to the one in Texas, where the PCs finally make it back to the US.

As a total aside, in one on the pencil illustrations included in the first supplement depicts a stinger missile, I think, and attached to it is a piece crypto gear that I repaired in the US Army, except photos or depictions of that piece of crypto is a security violation, but I'm sure I'm the only one that ever noticed...


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## aramis erak (Feb 11, 2022)

Flexor the Mighty! said:


> So if you unload a M16 on a foe and roll 6 ammo dice and get a bunch of extra hits.  So suppose you get a 3 point hit that is reduced by 1 by armor.  So that is 2 hits.  The target had hit capacity of 4.  So they are at 2.  One of the ammo dice is a separate hit and hits a leg for 2.  Now the target has matched his hit capacity and becomes incapacitated correct?  But there are two more ammo dice to resolve, so you get another 2 point hit on the arm and a head hit for 2.  Are both those fatal?



No. Both are critical hits; some of which may be fatal.


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## Grendel_Khan (Feb 11, 2022)

MGibster said:


> As a GM, I'm pretty sure there's going to come a situation where a PC runs across an enemy who isn't incapacitated but is essentially helpless.  Think of a sleeping soldier.  Rules as written, killing the sleeping soldier shouldn't be a problem because incapacitation is specifically defined as the state a character is in when their damage is equal to or greater than their hit capacity.  Or what if they just have a prisoner who is unarmed and offering no resistance?  Rules as written, he's not incapacitated.  But the rules on page 73 also say, "Killing in cold blood is not easy."  I can just see a player complaining that the GM makes them roll Empathy to kill a prisoner.



If you have a player rules lawyering that hard about something so obvious, and not getting what the designers are going for and the tone and situations they’re trying to set up, you might have problems no system will solve.


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## Mezuka (Feb 26, 2022)

Considering what is going on in Ukraine our T2000 project to play this game was put on hold indefinitely.


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## billd91 (Feb 26, 2022)

Mezuka said:


> Considering what is going on in Ukraine our T2000 project to play this game was put on hold indefinitely.



As long as we’re not all stuck LARPing it in the not too distant future…


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## MGibster (Feb 26, 2022)

Mezuka said:


> Considering what is going on in Ukraine our T2000 project to play this game was put on hold indefinitely.



Yeah.  Not that I expected to run the campaign in the immediate future, but I told my players any plans to run a campaign was on hiatus indefinitely.  I already had some reservations about the subject matter due to my own experiences growing up during the Cold War and my time in Germany.


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## gamerprinter (Feb 26, 2022)

While I experienced the Cold War, as far as any American might have (I'm 59 years old), but short of being in an actual war zone, I don't see why current events should ever impact my gaming - it doesn't. In fact, I'm about a couple weeks from releasing two new products for a new product line supporting Starfinder RPG as third party; setting guides. Neither Ukraine, nor the pandemic has ever been a block to my developments.


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## Paragon Lost (Feb 26, 2022)

gamerprinter said:


> While I experienced the Cold War, as far as any American might have (I'm 59 years old), but short of being in an actual war zone, I don't see why current events should ever impact my gaming - it doesn't. In fact, I'm about a couple weeks from releasing two new products for a new product line supporting Starfinder RPG as third party; setting guides. Neither Ukraine, nor the pandemic has ever been a block to my developments.




 Yep, that was my point of view and I'm of a similar age and served as a recon scout on the West/East German and Czech border for about a decade in the 1980s and into the 1990's when the wall went down.


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## MGibster (Feb 26, 2022)

gamerprinter said:


> While I experienced the Cold War, as far as any American might have (I'm 59 years old), but short of being in an actual war zone, I don't see why current events should ever impact my gaming - it doesn't. In fact, I'm about a couple weeks from releasing two new products for a new product line supporting Starfinder RPG as third party; setting guides. Neither Ukraine, nor the pandemic has ever been a block to my developments.




You don't see a difference between a game like _Starfinder_, what is fundamentally a science fiction version of D&D, and a game like _Twilight 2000 _where the PCs are fighting the Russians who have invaded a former satellite nation of the Soviet Union in a bid to reclaim their glory days?  You don't see where maybe _Twilight 2000 _is a little too close to current events, a war, where people are dying and a burgeoning democracy might come to an end and a game where space mice cavort around the galaxy in a spaceship?  

Don't get me wrong, if other people still want to play _Twilight 2000 _despite current events I'm totally cool with that.  It doesn't attest to any moral inferiority on their part or superiority on mine.  But when you come into a thread where others are expressing a lack of desire to play a game because of current events, precisely because the game is so similar current events, and compare it to Space D&D, well, it demonstrates a lack of empathy.  As if you either don't understand or don't care why people might be turned off from _Twilight 2000 _at this time.


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## gamerprinter (Feb 26, 2022)

I could see that as problematic, sure. I'd check with my players, though, to see if it were a problem to them, because it still wouldn't be a terrible problem for me - but for you, or anybody else, sure that is reasonable to not want to play. However, I haven't played Twilight 2000 since the late 1990's. I'm generally not a fan of the "current day" settings and games, nor even Super Hero games, for the same reason. I prefer ancient, medieval or distant future, where events in my games are in no way congruous with current real world. If I want to play in the 21st century, I just LARP in the real world, as myself, and not do it in a game.


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## Paragon Lost (Feb 26, 2022)

I could make comparisons to a lot of things related to playing tabletop rpgs that might/could appear to be insensitive to someone.  It's a slippery slope and I could make the debate across the board for many many ways that someone could be offended by something in any tabletop rpg. I think the more logical stance is to have a conversation with your group on how you all feel about it and what maybe to avoid.

  Personally as a long time gamer, ex-recon scout etc, I find myself still mind boggled/gobsmacked at the events of the late the mid/late 1990s and Herzegovina/Sarajevo. This is modern day europe, how could that happen, how could people be doing some of the things that they did to each other in that conflict. Etc etc, a bunch a thoughts went through my mind at the time.

   I honestly was not surprised that Russia is doing what they're attempting to do at this time. After the unilateral annexation of Crimea I had been expecting to see them sooner than later go after Ukraine. They want to regain/re-unite all of the territories (or most of them) that were a part of the old Soviet Union in my opinion.       

  Back to the T-2000 rpg game itself. I look at T2000 rpg as a war like setting set in a fictional (always potentially possible) role-playing in a European setting. We're aren't starting in Ukraine, or even Russia. Most who play will start in Poland or Sweden, though personally if I was starting a campaign in the setting I'd start with areas in Deutschland. That's just my preference as a GM along with my knowledge base.

 DLDR: I think the best course of action is to talk to your group and make your choice.


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## Teo Twawki (Feb 27, 2022)

gamerprinter said:


> short of being in an actual war zone, I don't see why current events should ever impact my gaming



I first played T2k in a warzone.
Playing a game of war was much less absurd than the war being fought.
And less unhealthy for the neighbors.


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## gamerprinter (Feb 27, 2022)

Totally, agreed - just figured in a war zone, if not played via VTT, gathering your friends might be a tougher thing to do...


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## Teo Twawki (Feb 27, 2022)

The downside is they might be under fire as well.
The upside, I suppose, is their excuses for not making a session will certainly be valid.


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## aramis erak (Feb 27, 2022)

I couldn't keep running Alien during the initial lockdown - a macroscopic lethal plague was just too much like the microscopic lethal plague.

I'm glad my T2K game ended in Dec. (THey got out to Ramstein by day 14... when the last transport leaves for home)... what's happening now is what we though would happen in 2000 back when T2K 1E came out, in 1984...


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## John R Davis (Sep 7, 2022)

Have now played 3 sessions 
The system is fine, need to push a lot but done get punished too much for it 
The bullet dice seem to serve little purpose to use ( really no benefit to using 3 or 4 rather than one).
Combat clearly dangerous, and one bad roll against a PC will be them done. Realistic but not game friendly 
Will see if it has legs or will it be a bit repetitive as there are only so many things to do 
Enjoying it thus far


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## Paragon Lost (Sep 7, 2022)

John R Davis said:


> Have now played 3 sessions
> The system is fine, need to push a lot but done get punished too much for it
> The bullet dice seem to serve little purpose to use ( really no benefit to using 3 or 4 rather than one).
> Combat clearly dangerous, and one bad roll against a PC will be them done. Realistic but not game friendly
> ...



  I backed the Kickstarter all in, but haven't had the chance to actually run Twilight 2000 yet. I have run some Alien Rpg recently and I found a few things, wonder if you've noted the same things. 

First thing, the while very mood setting to have the Alien book and GM screen all back, they are hard to read. Really hard on the eyes.

Second thing, was organization of things. I found I had to do a lot of page flipping for things. What I found I needed to do is pre-write up creatures and take a lot of notes to speed up game play.

Third thing we found and one I'd always been concerned with in regard to MY0, and that's the 10 card initiative system. The cards are hard to mix shuffle and the players really didn't like them. I found that the older Mutant Year Zero and Coriolis don't use them, so if I continue to play MY0 games I think I'll adapt something like the earlier systems initiative mechanics.

  Other than that and the high attrition rate that is Aliens, we did have a lot of fun with it. I think page flipping would be easier in the smaller sized The Forbidden Lands rpg books as an aside.


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## Grendel_Khan (Sep 7, 2022)

John R Davis said:


> The bullet dice seem to serve little purpose to use ( really no benefit to using 3 or 4 rather than one).



How would that be the case? Ammo dice only matter if you roll a 6, so rolling 3 or 4 is way more likely to have an effect than rolling one of them.


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## Grendel_Khan (Sep 7, 2022)

Paragon Lost said:


> First thing, the while very mood setting to have the Alien book and GM screen all back, they are hard to read. Really hard on the eyes.




Have you looked at the T2K materials? They generally don't do the black background and white text thing. It's black text on white/cream.



Paragon Lost said:


> Second thing, was organization of things. I found I had to do a lot of page flipping for things. What I found I needed to do is pre-write up creatures and take a lot of notes to speed up game play.




Totally different organization in T2K.



Paragon Lost said:


> Third thing we found and one I'd always been concerned with in regard to MY0, and that's the 10 card initiative system. The cards are hard to mix shuffle and the players really didn't like them. I found that the older Mutant Year Zero and Coriolis don't use them, so if I continue to play MY0 games I think I'll adapt something like the earlier systems initiative mechanics.



I'm not the biggest fan of card-based initiative in general, but I'm a little confused here. In both Alien and T2K you only do a single initiative draw per combat. No need to draw new cards every round. Why does it matter if they're a little hard to shuffle?



Paragon Lost said:


> Other than that and the high attrition rate that is Aliens, we did have a lot of fun with it. I think page flipping would be easier in the smaller sized The Forbidden Lands rpg books as an aside.




Again, you should look at the T2K stuff you backed. It uses two smaller softcover books, as opposed to a single art-heavy hardcover. Very easy to flip through, and much more straightforward than Alien.


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## Digdude@1970 (Sep 7, 2022)

I think the real gems of this system is NOT using it for TW2000 but using it out of the box scenarios In one example I have, everyone makes up characters based on themselves, and then I start a scenario where they are playing themselves where we live in a Walking Dead situation. Have them go on a fishing trip together and when they get back, all hell has broken lose with zombie outbreak or a EMP, what do you do now?


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## John R Davis (Sep 7, 2022)

Grendel_Khan said:


> How would that be the case? Ammo dice only matter if you roll a 6, so rolling 3 or 4 is way more likely to have an effect than rolling one of them.



You burn bullets on the hope of getting a 6, with an equal chance of getting a 1. It may happen in due course we have a Eureka moment but it hasnt happened yet!


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## Retreater (Sep 7, 2022)

IMO, it needs psychics or battlefield occultists as options.


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## eyeheartawk (Sep 7, 2022)

Retreater said:


> IMO, it needs psychics or battlefield occultists as options.



Are we still talking about Twilight 2000?


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## Retreater (Sep 7, 2022)

eyeheartawk said:


> Are we still talking about Twilight 2000?



Yeah, I think it would make it awesome. That's just my opinion, I know. But putting some mad science, dark magic, psychic powers, etc., would give us a strange angle for those of us who would like to go from "gritty depiction of post apocalyptic war" to "pulp-inspired adventure stories in a post apocalyptic setting." Have it in an appendix or supplement. 
A completely modern, realistic RPG has never really captured my imagination. It needs _something _else - be it magic, sci-fi, superheroes, etc.


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## eyeheartawk (Sep 7, 2022)

Retreater said:


> Yeah, I think it would make it awesome. That's just my opinion, I know. But putting some mad science, dark magic, psychic powers, etc., would give us a strange angle for those of us who would like to go from "gritty depiction of post apocalyptic war" to "pulp-inspired adventure stories in a post apocalyptic setting." Have it in an appendix or supplement.
> A completely modern, realistic RPG has never really captured my imagination. It needs _something _else - be it magic, sci-fi, superheroes, etc.



Okay, I understand. I think though, that the gritty realism thing is one of the defining features of Twilight 2000. I doubt we'd ever see that. That's all more of a Gamma World type thing.


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## Digdude@1970 (Sep 7, 2022)

Reminds me of game called Millenniums End. THE most accurate RPG ballistic system ever made IMOP. It had these clear sheets you put over the target profile. I played it a couple of times but I dont remember much of the rest of the mechanics.


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## Grendel_Khan (Sep 7, 2022)

Digdude@1970 said:


> Reminds me of game called Millenniums End. THE most accurate RPG ballistic system ever made IMOP. It had these clear sheets you put over the target profile. I played it a couple of times but I dont remember much of the rest of the mechanics.



Millennium' End's bullet overlays were awesome. But also slow as molasses, whereas the new edition of T2K is ridiculously fast for a trad game.

I did love the charging dog images that Millennium's End included, which really gave you a feel for now scary it'd be to have one of those coming for you, even if you had a gun in hand.


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## Grendel_Khan (Sep 7, 2022)

John R Davis said:


> You burn bullets on the hope of getting a 6, with an equal chance of getting a 1. It may happen in due course we have a Eureka moment but it hasnt happened yet!




But 1's on ammo dice only matter (as far as causing jams and reducing the gun's reliability) if you push. Ammo dice used without pushing can only help (with 6's), and can't hurt. Plus, if you really need to score a hit, having your gun jam or break (from a push with lots of ammo dice used) might still be worth it. From the Player's Manual:

"This means rolling more ammo dice will risk damaging your firearm – but only when you push the roll. If your weapon breaks due to pushing, it does so after the current attack is resolved."

Also ammo dice are the best way to suppress people who are under cover. The related mechanics are just about my favorite part of the system, and the only time I've ever seen autofire and suppression work well, and quickly, in an RPG.


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## Grendel_Khan (Sep 7, 2022)

Digdude@1970 said:


> I think the real gems of this system is NOT using it for TW2000 but using it out of the box scenarios In one example I have, everyone makes up characters based on themselves, and then I start a scenario where they are playing themselves where we live in a Walking Dead situation. Have them go on a fishing trip together and when they get back, all hell has broken lose with zombie outbreak or a EMP, what do you do now?



After my first session of T2K I absolutely thought "This is basically a perfect zombie apocalypse RPG." You'd have to come up with some additional mechanics for dealing with zombie hordes, but the basics are there (including hit location rules for head shots, and taking penalties when you shoot at someone in the same hex as you).

But I also think the core combat mechanics are so smart and streamlined that you could do SF with T2K, possibly even cyberpunk. It's great stuff.


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## MGibster (Sep 7, 2022)

Retreater said:


> Yeah, I think it would make it awesome. That's just my opinion, I know. But putting some mad science, dark magic, psychic powers, etc., would give us a strange angle for those of us who would like to go from "gritty depiction of post apocalyptic war" to "pulp-inspired adventure stories in a post apocalyptic setting." Have it in an appendix or supplement.
> A completely modern, realistic RPG has never really captured my imagination. It needs _something _else - be it magic, sci-fi, superheroes, etc.



Around 1989-1990, I tried getting one of my friends to run Delta Force:  America Strikes Back but including zombies.  He didn't bite, but what a trend setter I was!  It wasn't so long before we started seeing games like All Flesh Must Be Eaten and a revival of the zombie genre.  

While I understand your point of view, I myself can think of few games I play that doesn't feature fantastic elements, I don't think Twilight 2000 is the right game for pulp-inspired adventure stories.  If there's any horror to Twilight 2000, it comes from having to shoot a 14 year old child soldier or finding a family in a shallow grave and not knowing which side killed them.  Zombies, wizards, and aliens kind of undermines the setting in my opinion.


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## Retreater (Sep 7, 2022)

MGibster said:


> While I understand your point of view, I myself can think of few games I play that doesn't feature fantastic elements, I don't think Twilight 2000 is the right game for pulp-inspired adventure stories. If there's any horror to Twilight 2000, it comes from having to shoot a 14 year old child soldier or finding a family in a shallow grave and not knowing which side killed them. Zombies, wizards, and aliens kind of undermines the setting in my opinion.



Yeah, it's likely just not the game for me. I did buy the box - it's got great production values - but it doesn't encourage me to run it. Without some otherworldly element, it seems an endlessly bleak "killing innocents" type of game with no real escapism from the horrors of current events.


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## John R Davis (Sep 7, 2022)

I agree with the Zombie Apocaplyse....keep expecting some horror to arise (i realize war is its own horror).

On the Ammo dice, will re-read suppression in case we missed something


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## Teo Twawki (Sep 8, 2022)

Retreater said:


> Yeah, I think it would make it awesome. That's just my opinion, I know. But putting some mad science, dark magic, psychic powers, etc., would give us a strange angle for those of us who would like to go from "gritty depiction of post apocalyptic war" to "pulp-inspired adventure stories in a post apocalyptic setting." Have it in an appendix or supplement.
> A completely modern, realistic RPG has never really captured my imagination. It needs _something _else - be it magic, sci-fi, superheroes, etc.



Plenty of games cater to pulp fantasy. Zombies, magic, and psionic flairs simply isn't the game described on the box.

T2k needs nothing beyond its desperate realism.


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## aramis erak (Sep 9, 2022)

I did have a couple encounters that triggered a, "Pause, please," reaction...

The gassed out village, and the war profiteering guys... 

The gassed out village is a stock random encounter. "You find several families, warm, but dead. Not a wound in sight. Their dogs, cats..."
"HOLD!" X-card waving. "I need a minute." 
A few minutes later, "Continue..." 
"Their pets and farm animals all dead, too..."
"BUTTON UP!" the Doctor's player orders.
Everyone mimes putting on the MOPP-masks/hoods...
One asks, speaking through hands, "Why button?"
"Nerve Gas!" T stops, looks at me, "It is gas, right?"
I nod.

The war profiteers... they tracked the crashed helo's parts from these pogues' hummer tracks... find them eating K rations and playing PS-2...
As they started to negotiate, one of the players asks, "Can we hold the scene? I'm ready to kill these !@@^((#s."
"Sure..."
"STORE RUN!" says another player.
They found reasons to kill these asinine pogues... when they caught these deserters raiding a live friendly convoy...
The reason? They needed time to mentally process the nature of war, as one of the PCs had bought the farm, these guys were a mile off, with radios on the freq, and sat there playing Tenchu: Stealth Assassins....
Having their characters take gory hits? No problem.
Having guys in the same uniform ignore calls for help? Set everyone's hackles on "Hedgehog!"

While I recommend an X-card, as the horror moments will happen  in a RAW campaign with good GM description, but may not be the ones that you expect. I expected the gassed village to be a bit rough on the chemist... but it was the teens that freaked at the animals being vaguely  described.

One thing my players really appreciated was that, when they killed the soviet female sniper, she had period  supplies in her kit. Waste  not, want not.... But that also made the sniper no longer seem just a set of stats, but a woman, with all the usual issues... 

So many chances to personify the enemy and the victims.
To remind players that the Soviets are not Orcs.


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## John R Davis (Sep 9, 2022)

Indeed. Orcs are good guys now!
We have been trying to add to the grim near-reality but seem to struggle to get passed a more wargame ( not the movie) style of play, but only 3 sessions in. I think TW2K is a slow learner-burner


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## MGibster (Sep 9, 2022)

aramis erak said:


> While I recommend an X-card, as the horror moments will happen in a RAW campaign with good GM description, but may not be the ones that you expect. I expected the gassed village to be a bit rough on the chemist... but it was the teens that freaked at the animals being vaguely described.



I first noticed a similar phenomenon while watching the documentary _Independence Day _back in 1996.  Amid the destruction of various cities, landmarks, and what must have been the deaths of millions of people, the most tense moment in the movie came in the form of a golden retriever fleeing into an underground tunnel moments before he would have been killed.  It was literally the only threat in the film that held any emotional resonance.  

Like motion pictures, in RPGs we've become inured to the deaths of humans (orcs, elves, etc., etc.).  I put on hold any plans to run Twilight 2000 because of the recent invasion of Ukraine.  But I had planned on making sure the Russians were humanized, not all NATO forces were "good" guys, and Poles might be pro-American, pro-Russian, or pro-Everyone Get the Hell out of My Country Now depending on who the PCs are dealing with.  It was one of the only games where I had decided that violence against children was a possibility and see what the PCs might do when confronted with a 13 year old armed with an AK-74.


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## Teo Twawki (Sep 9, 2022)

Our T2k games--for those who haven't experienced the world's RL horrors ranging from removing non-survivors from a fatal house fire to surviving genocide as our core group has--would probably be an X-card from the moment it began. The events depicted in our game world are never salacious, but never sugar-coated either.

A friend of mine who lives 40 km from the front line in Kryvyi Rih, joked last week about how much they would like to be playing an rpg about combatting the Soviet Empire rather than suffering from the nihilistic arrogance of a former-Soviet dictator who wants to be a génocidaire.

Rather than being traumatic, for us, playing a game is having power over the horrors depicted. Because in RL, we almost never do not have the power to control the very human horror of things like 13 year olds armed with Kalashnikovs. RPGs, like good fiction, allow us to examine (and even participate) in events which in RL would be hazardous or even horribly fatal to explore.

To steal most of a quote from elsewhere:


> It plays out like this:
> 
> You discover your food has been contaminated with mold or eaten by rats.
> The Polish countryside in winter is not a friendly place.
> ...


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