# Grading Encounter Attack Powers



## keterys (Jul 2, 2008)

This exercise was primarily focused on establishing guidelines for power design. I'm mostly hoping for interesting debate and a vague guide for DMs and players alike for comparing powers. While this post deals with encounter powers, you may find the daily or at-will discussion interesting.

All powers are graded assuming they are used effectively - if a power requires a second person in melee to work, don't take it in a party with no other melee. In many cases you'll find that personal preference varies from these grades - while a power may be extraordinary in theory or combined with the right build or party, take the power that is most fun for you! 

Grades 
A - Excellent. This power brings something special to the table in terms of tactical ability or damage output. It may be too powerful, especially in the hands of the wrong class. 
B - Good. This is a solid power. Most powers should fall into this grade.
C - Okay. This power is certainly adequate but pales somewhat in comparison to other powers.
D - Poor. This power is certainly usable (and may even excel in certain rare situations), but is definitely lacking compared to other options. 
F - Compares extremely poorly to other powers and should likely be improved or ignored.

A+ powers in particular are at a dangerous balance level. If designing a new power and it is on par, or better, than an A+, most likely you should go back to the drawing board and tweak some things.

B- is what I considered the baseline for comparison of powers. A bit worse and it's in the C territory, but a fair amount of distance to get into the A range.

Basic Grading Guidelines:

Giving an ally a bonus to attack or giving penalties to defense is extremely powerful for setting up your ally's abilities that do high damage, stun, etc.

Raw damage is pretty good, but in general I'm going to value tactical bonuses such as stun, daze, blind, or large amounts of forced movement more highly. These set up combat advantage and deny effective action.

Penalties to attack can prevent bad status effects, like daze and stun, as well as damage, so that's probably next.

Weaken and Knocks Prone are good, but they're just less effective than that. Monsters don't do a ton of damage so weaken is only so good, and being prone is not a huge penalty. Immobilize is I guess roughly on par.

Slow and some similar effects are... after that. 

Area effects get scored well overall, since you often fight a lot of monsters in 4e and it's important to clear out minions before they can do significant damage.

Powers that use ability bonuses can often be much stronger for some characters than others. For low level encounter powers, I'll assume a 2 to 6 range depending on the ability, but as levels progress that can climb into the 6-10 range for some builds so I'll need to take that into account. Under no circumstances will I consider a power that uses an ability score that it 'might be a 0 or 1' just to prove a power could be weaker, just as I won't assume that weapon powers use fists for poor damage and no proficiency bonus. 

Please feel free to disagree with any suggested grade I give at all, pointing out flaws in my logic, grading guidelines, etc. If a power is exceptional under extremely limited circumstances (Cause Fear on a large+ creature in a blood pulse area, for instance), please make note if that's why you're suggesting the change and otherwise it's some other grade.

If comparing powers of different levels - for example a level 3 power to a level 1 power, note that I am grading in relation to other powers of its level so the level 3 is expected to be better (much as you'd expect a 3rd grader's English to be better than a 1st grader's, at the same grade level or even worse). I can't be exact in how much of a drop you'll see, but don't be surprised by at least a full letter difference.

Encounter 1 Power Analysis
Encounter 3 Power Analysis
Encounter 7 Power Analysis
Encounter 13 Power Analysis

*CLERIC*
[sblock]-= Encounter 1 =-
C / Cause Fear
A- / Divine Glow
B / Healing Strike
B / Wrathful Thunder

-= Encounter 3 =-
A / Blazing Beacon (assumes ranged allies)
A- / Command
C+ / Daunting Light
B- / Split the Sky

-= Encounter 7 =-
C / Awe Strike
C / Break the Spirit
B+ / Searing Light
A- / Strengthen the Faithful

-= Encounter 13 = -
C / Arc of the Righteous
B- / Inspiring Strike
A / Mantle of Glory
A / Plague of Doom[/sblock]
*FIGHTER*
[sblock]-= Encounter 1 =-
C+ / Covering Attack
C / Passing Attack
C- / Spinning Sweep
C+ / Steel Serpent Strike

-= Encounter 3 =-
B / Armor-Piercing Thrust
C / Crushing Blow
D- / Dance of Steel
C / Precise Strike
A / Rain of Blows
B+ / Sweeping Blow

-= Encounter 7 =-
A- / Come and Get It
B- / Griffon's Wrath
C- / Iron Bulwark
D+ / Reckless Strike
C- / Sudden Surge

-= Encounter 13 = -
A+ / Anvil of Doom
A / Chains of Sorrow
C+ / Giant's Wake
B- / Silverstep
B- / Storm of Blows
C+ / Talon of the Roc[/sblock]
*PALADIN*[sblock]-= Encounter 1 =-
B- / Fearsome Smite
B+ / Piercing Smite
B / Radiant Smite
C / Shielding Smite

-= Encounter 3 =-
C+ / Arcing Smite
B / Invigorating Smite
A- / Righteous Smite
B- / Staggering Smite

-= Encounter 7 =-
C+ / Beckon Foe
C+ / Benign Transposition
B+ / Divine Reverence
C / Thunder Smite

-= Encounter 13 = -
C+ / Entangling Smite
B- / Radiant Charge
C+ / Renewing Smite
B / Whirlwind Smite[/sblock]
*RANGER*[sblock]-= Encounter 1 =-
B+ / Dire Wolverine Strike
B+ / Evasive Strike
B+ / Fox's Cunning
A- / Two-Fanged Strike

-= Encounter 3 =-
B+ / Cut and Run
A / Disruptive Strike
F / Shadow Wasp Strike
A- / Thundertusk Boar Strike

-= Encounter 7 =-
B+ / Claws of the Griffon
B- / Hawk's Talon
B- / Spikes of the Manticore
A- / Sweeping Whirlwind

-= Encounter 13 = -
A / Armor Splinter
C+ / Knockdown Shot
B- / Nimble Defense
B- / Pinning Strike[/sblock]
*ROGUE*[sblock]-= Encounter 1 =-
B / Dazing Strike
B / King's Castle
A- / Positioning Strike
B- / Tortuous Strike

-= Encounter 3 =-
B+ / Bait and Switch
C+ / Setup Strike
B- / Topple Over
C- / Trickster's Blade

-= Encounter 7 =-
B- / Cloud of Steel
A / Imperiling Strike
C+ / Rogue's Luck
B+ / Sand in the Eyes

-= Encounter 13 = -
B- / Fool's Opportunity
A+ / Stunning Strike
B / Tornado Strike
C+ / Unbalancing Attack[/sblock]
*WARLOCK*[sblock]-= Encounter 1 =-
A- / Diabolic Grasp
B / Dreadful Word
C+ / Vampiric Embrace
A- / Witchfire

-= Encounter 3 =-
B / Eldritch Rain
B / Fiery Bolt
A+ / Frigid Darkness
A- / Otherwind Stride

-= Encounter 7 =-
B- / Howl of Doom
B- / Infernal Moon Curse
A- / Mire the Mind
B- / Sign of Ill Omen

-= Encounter 13 = -
D- / Bewitching Whispers
C+ / Coldfire Vortex
B- / Harrowstorm
C / Soul Flaying[/sblock]
*WARLORD*[sblock]-= Encounter 1 =-
C+ / Guarding Attack
A- / Hammer and Anvil
B- / Leaf on the Wind
A / Warlord's Favor

-= Encounter 3 =-
B- / Hold the Line
C+ / Inspiring War Cry
B- / Steel Monsoon
A / Warlord's Strike

-= Encounter 7 =-
B+ / Lion's Roar
A- / Sunder Armor
B+ / Surprise Attack
B- / Surround Foe

-= Encounter 13 = -
B / Beat Them Into the Ground
B- / Bolstering Blow
C+ / Denying Smite
C+ / Fury of the Sirocco[/sblock]
*WIZARD*[sblock]-= Encounter 1 =-
C+ / Burning Hands
B+ / Chill Strike
B+ / Force Orb
A- / Icy Terrain
C- / Ray of Enfeeblement
A- / Grasping Shadows

-= Encounter 3 =-
A- / Color Spray
B+ / Fire Shroud
B+ / Icy Rays
B / Shock Sphere
B- / Maze of Mirrors

-= Encounter 7 =-
B / Fire Burst
B / Lightning Bolt
B- / Spectral Ram
A- / Winter's Wrath

-= Encounter 13 = -
B / Frostburn
B / Mesmeric Hold
A- / Prismatic Burst
B- / Thunderlance[/sblock]


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## Goumindong (Jul 2, 2008)

A note: Don't Underestimate the single target encounter powers. Especially with something as strong as Daze or Weaken. Its tough to say which one is better. They work especially well with readied actions. But if you can't let off your encounter power because the single enemy has friendlies flanking it it can be a pain.

Force orb is nice since it only attacks enemies.

Grasping shadows probably suffers from Dragon power creep

I would say burning hands is the odd one out with the least use especially since you can just thunderwave a few times or scorching burst a few times instead. Not as time efficient, but it will waste minions just as well.


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## (Psi)SeveredHead (Jul 3, 2008)

I think these threads would be more useful if we were told why a power earns that grade.


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## keterys (Jul 3, 2008)

I'm happy to go into more detail for any of them that people object to, or if there's any in particular anyone wants to know.

So, I consider Daze quite good. Weaken less so - seems like that only saves a smallish amount of hp given monster damage, which makes it compare less well to some of the temp hp and healing you can get instead. Knockdown even less so. Ranged powers that are range 5 I tended to drop a point. 

I generally rate penalties to defense or bonuses to an ally's attack fairly high, because they setup other major powers of allies - a daily that does extreme damage or stuns, for instance. Penalties to attack I rate higher than weaken, because that can prevent special effects like daze or stun on the party.

Honestly, I'm hoping that others will decide to just talk about it. It's a good thing to chat about


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## Cirex (Jul 3, 2008)

Fox's Cunning would be great if it was an interrupt. The enemy attacks -> shift and the attack instantly misses.


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## Goumindong (Jul 3, 2008)

keterys said:


> I'm happy to go into more detail for any of them that people object to, or if there's any in particular anyone wants to know.
> 
> So, I consider Daze quite good. Weaken less so - seems like that only saves a smallish amount of hp given monster damage, which makes it compare less well to some of the temp hp and healing you can get instead. Knockdown even less so. Ranged powers that are range 5 I tended to drop a point.
> 
> ...




I would agree with that, so ignore what I said about ray of enfeeblement, since being dazed grants combat advantage.


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## Nifft (Jul 3, 2008)

(Psi)SeveredHead said:


> I think these threads would be more useful if we were told why a power earns that grade.



 Agree. The numbers are worth little without the motivation behind them.

Specifically, party make up. Force Orb is great if most of your party likes to mix it up in melee and flank (Rogue, Warlord); it's unnecessary if you have two Tieflings on the front line.

Cheers, -- N


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## Andur (Jul 3, 2008)

More specifically, these threads should be about combinations anyway.  Since the number of times a power is used in a vacuum is so rare that it doesn't practically exist.  The combinations of feats, powers, class abilities, and racial abilites within a group of 5 is what should be graded.  

But now that might take a tad bit more work. 

BTW no way is Passing Attack worse than Two Fanged Strike, especially if a reach weapon is used...


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## keterys (Jul 3, 2008)

I rated Passing Attack lower because it requires that you hit on the first attack to get the shift or the secondary attack, while Two Fanged Strike was the top damage encounter 1 power that I saw if memory serves. 

Anyhow, I'll work on adding the reasoning. This was something I threw together quickly just to get things going since the at-will discussion seemed so fruitful.

Again, I'm assuming that you're setup to use the powers. Lessee, force orb is basically an area burst 1 (enemies) only, range 20, low-ish damage. I figured Icy Terrain and Grasping Shadows were both better than that.


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## Mengu (Jul 3, 2008)

I think these threads are a good exercise. The meaning of the numbers are less important than where we think the ballpark power level is for each power. For At-will powers, we had a couple that were 9+, and a handful that were 4-, these probably could use some re-examining, and should give us an idea of what not to do when creating custom powers. Now on to this set.

I like Piercing Smite better than Radiant smite, I'd either decrease one, or increase the other. Piercing Smite helps the Paladin play a better representation of the Defender role.

I think Dazing Strike is better than a 6. You can attack, and move away (no opportunity attack), which means your opponent simply will not be able to attack you in melee next turn. All your allies enjoy combat advantage against him as well. Everyone can dance around him with no opportunity attacks. I think Dazing Strike is the best Rogue 1 Encounter power.

I would rate Witchfire at a 7 like you have, but the other Warlock powers I would peg at 6. It's not a huge difference though. They are all in the same ballpark.

Warlord's Favor is not as reliable as Hammer and Anvil, and doesn't have quite the same damage potential. It's definitely not better than Dire Wolverine Strike. I'd give it a 7.

I think your Wizard powers are all a bit off. They are more even in my book, something like 

*WIZARD*
7 / Burning Hands
7 / Chill Strike
7 / Force Orb
8 / Icy Terrain
6 / Ray of Enfeeblement
8 / Grasping Shadows


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## keterys (Jul 3, 2008)

Added spoiler blocks with my reasoning for all level 1 powers. I'll cover level 3 powers later today.


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## Fedifensor (Jul 4, 2008)

Are you going to convert these to letter grades like you did with the At-Will powers?


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## Fedifensor (Jul 4, 2008)

*Wizard Encounter Powers (1st level)*

One problem that I've recently realized with Burning Hands and Force Orb is that they're nothing besides damage...and the damage difference between them and Scorching Burst (an at-will) isn't all that huge.

Burning Hands does 1d6 more damage (+3.5 average damage) than Scorching Burst, over a slightly larger area.  But it is a close blast instead of a burst, can be hard to place without hitting allies, and has no secondary effects.  If all you need is damage, Scorching Burst can do the job reasonably well.  Save your encounter power for something that gives an added effect.

Force Orb is slightly better, because you can avoid hitting allies, and it has a range of 20.  It's a good opener for a fight, and good when things have gotten chaotic.  That said, unless the damage is enough to kill your target(s), you haven't done anything to hinder them.  Also, if you miss the primary target, you get nothing.

Ray of Enfeeblement seems like the power you use against an Elite or Solo - halving the damage of the highest-damage foe on the field is a good thing, especially if its attack can hit multiple PCs.

Chill Strike seems to be the weakest encounter power for 1st level.  Single target, no effect if you miss, and even dazed creatures can take a single action to attack...which means even melee foes can attack if they're in range on their turn.  It also goes against Fortitude, which is generally higher than Reflex or Will.

Grasping Shadows is a good power - hits multiple targets, does decent damage, functions as area denial to minions, and slows everything it hits.  I'd rate it the second best of the bunch.

I have to give the nod to Icy Terrain - it hits multiple foes, knocks them down, and even after they get up they have to go over difficult terrain to get to the party.  Same damage as Scorching Burst, but with a good control ability tacked on to the power.


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## keterys (Jul 4, 2008)

Changed to letter grades to see what people think (it's a fuzzier notation and this has a lot of "gut instinct" and "weird circumstance" stuff involved in the process, so figured I'd try it). If you feel strongly one way or another, just let me know. I have the numbers saved.

On the wizard encounters, Mengu - your numbers were pretty close to mine, but let's see... I rated Burning Hands slightly lower than Force Orb because it's lower damage and seems less versatile (range, single target or multi target, enemies only). 

You rated Icy Terrain more highly than I did, on par with Grasping Shadows. Can you explain why?


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## keterys (Jul 4, 2008)

I tend to rate weaken as a so-so effect. It doesn't provide any bonus to your party and monsters tend to do pretty low damage in the first place and often miss, so it only gives so much.

Breaking Icy Terrain and Grasping Shadows out again so I can more directly compare, since that seems a point of contention:

Same area - Grasping is vs. Will, Icy is vs. Ref, but that's basically a wash.

Grasping Shadows:
Hit: 1d8 and slow.
Effect: Any creature that enters takes Int damage and is slowed.

Icy Terrain:
Hit: 1d6 and prone.
Effect: Difficult terrain.

So I considered Grasping's 'Effect' to be stronger. Grasping really hinders moving through it more and autokills minions.

On the objection to Chill Strike - daze is the most powerful status effect of the level 1s, preventing a monster for opportunity attacking, allowing combat advantage, and even letting you do really rude things like taking a single step back and the creature can no longer attack (since it can't charge or make an attack without moving, and it's reduced to one action). Comparing to Daze Strike, which people do like, it's pretty much the same but with better damage.


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## keterys (Jul 6, 2008)

*Encounter 1 Reasoning*

Cleaning things up so I can add encounter 3s and have room for future additions. In terms of grades, these cover a wider spread of effect than the At-Wills seemed to, and there seem to be less that feel "Wow, that's crazy". It is interesting how close the top at-wills (Righteous Brand, Twin Strike, Scorching Burst, Thunderwave) are to many of these encounter abilities.

*CLERIC*
C / Cause Fear
A- / Divine Glow
B / Healing Strike
B / Wrathful Thunder

My rough order/appraisal:
Divine Glow is a decent close blast that hits enemies only and can give multiple allies a bonus to attack.
Healing Strike does decent damage, marks, and has a decent heal.
Wrathful Thunder does low damage, but adds daze which is a very solid status.
Cause Fear is a bit too specialized and it's too easy to just move back. It can trigger some nice OAs, but I think it's the worst of the lot.

*FIGHTER*
C+ / Covering Attack
C / Passing Attack
C- / Spinning Sweep
C+ / Steel Serpent Strike

Steel Serpent Strike and Covering Attack both do decent damage and have pretty reasonable secondary effects, but they're nothing special. 
Passing Attack can be quite good, but I dropped it a little because if you miss on the first attack you don't get to shift or make a secondary attack. Its second attack also must be on a different target.
Spinning Sweep does low damage and knocks prone. It seems just worse than Steel Serpent Strike except in some very specific combat advantage granting circumstances.

*PALADIN*
B- / Fearsome Smite
B+ / Piercing Smite
B / Radiant Smite
C / Shielding Smite

All powers deal 2W base damage which is pretty much my assumed baseline for a level 1 encounter power. Shielding Smite is a Cha attack that gives someone Wis to AC, and frankly I think Cha attacks that require a good Wis to be meaningful lose a point due to poor stat synergy. Also I think AC to one ally is not that impressive. Fearsome Smite, as a Cha attack that gives a Wis penalty to attacks seems a far better implementation in many cases. Piercing Smite targets Reflex which is nice, and marks a lot of enemies, so seems even better. I'm assuming that dealing radiant damage is an advantage given the amount of vulnerability to radiant, synergy with other items and powers, and things like preventing regeneration on some undead - add on a solid Wis kicker for damage.

*RANGER*
B+ / Dire Wolverine Strike
B+ / Evasive Strike
B+ / Fox's Cunning
A- / Two-Fanged Strike
Fox's Cunning is just low damage and low effect - while I concede the Ranger could potentially get away with using Twin Strike and having some encounter powers for really specialized or reactive things, it just seems poor. Dire Wolverine Strike is a close burst 1 that hits enemies only. Great for minion killing and such. Evasive Strike on a Wis built Ranger is a very impressive amount of shift before or after the attack. Two-Fanged Strike is potentially the top damage power for encounter 1s.

*ROGUE*
B / Dazing Strike
B / King's Castle
A- / Positioning Strike
B- / Tortuous Strike
Tortuous Strike is quite respectable damage, but I actually consider it the clunker of the rogue options at this level. Dazing Strike is basically the same as Thundering Wrath - it sacrifices a bit of damage to daze, which is a great effect. King's Castle targets Reflex which is nice and allows you to swap places with an adjacent ally. I'd say it's worse than Piercing Smite, to make a cross-class comparison though. I think Positioning Strike is the clear winner at this level - while it deals slightly less damage, it targets Will and can slide an enemy a huge distance.

*WARLOCK*
A- / Diabolic Grasp
B / Dreadful Word
C+ / Vampiric Embrace
A- / Witchfire

All the powers do roughly the same damage. Dreadful Word and Vampiric Embrace are only ranged 5, which is a detriment. After that, it's mostly comparing special effects. Vampiric Embrace gives a moderate amount of temporary hp - at level 1 it's actually a pretty large amount, but it doesn't stack with dark one's blessing and it doesn't really help your team. And it targets Fortitude, with necrotic damage. Diabolic Grasp slides a large number of squares, which I consider very powerful. Witchfire gives a huge penalty to attacks. Dreadful Word I wanted to score lower, but it does give a large penalty to Will defense so can potentially set up some other serious power.

*WARLORD*
C+ / Guarding Attack
A- / Hammer and Anvil
B- / Leaf on the Wind
A / Warlord's Favor

Guarding Attack is slightly better than Shielding Smite, because it doesn't have the Cha/Wis problem - it'll be a big bonus to AC. It is restricted to just attacks by the target, but it still struck me as better. Leaf on the Wind is okay damage and lets you potentially do a nice setup move. Hammer and Anvil targets Reflex and can potentially be the top damage power of the encounter 1s if you're in a good setup with an ally. Top notch stuff. Warlord's Favor does solid damage and gives a huge bonus to attacks. Given an ally can then action point, burn dailies or good encounters, it's probably one of the best power plays of the encounter 1s.

*WIZARD*
C+ / Burning Hands
B+ / Chill Strike
B+ / Force Orb
A- / Icy Terrain
C- / Ray of Enfeeblement
A- / Grasping Shadows

Ray of Enfeeblement really isn't all that much damage for a single target effect and weaken is cool, but not exactly impressive when used on a monster (instead of a PC), so I consider it the clunker of the bunch. Burning Hands is a solid area and there are definite uses for close powers, but it's not exceptional. Chill Strike is basically just like Dazing Strike and Thundering Wrath, but more damage. Quite solid. Force Orb is decent single target damage and/or a area burst 1 that hits enemies only, and it's very long range. I would rate it higher if you got the secondary attacks even if you missed the primary, but you'll see a lot of people just hit the ground with it. Icy Terrain is an area burst which is always appreciated and it knocks prone and creates an area of difficult terrain. It's not an amazing power, but it's still one of the best options at this level. I think Grasping Shadows is slightly stronger in terms of the Effect of its Zone, but they both have their uses.


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## keterys (Jul 6, 2008)

*Encounter 3 Reasoning*

Initial stab in the dark - hopefully folks can help refine things.

*CLERIC*
A / Blazing Beacon (Only in parties with ranged allies)
A- / Command
C+ / Daunting Light
B- / Split the Sky

Daunting Light does solid damage, radiant, over adequate range. The combat advantage is useful, but not really powerful. Split the Sky looks really nice, until you realize the enemy is just going to stand and charge. I've seen it use a couple times and that's happened every time. Command lets you daze and choose between prone or slid a fair ways, which is a very powerful controlling combo. No damage, though.  Blazing Beacon provides a sizable +4 bonus to all ranged attacks against a target for a turn, which can be used for many attacks in a round by most members of the party, including action points, dailies, etc, so gets to be top of the pile.

*FIGHTER*
B / Armor-Piercing Thrust
C / Crushing Blow
D- / Dance of Steel
C / Precise Strike
A / Rain of Blows
B+ / Sweeping Blow

Dance of Steel is strictly worse than a level 1 encounter, oops. Crushing Blow is fine and all, but it's nothing special - on par with many level 1 encounters.  Precise Strike is... okay. If you've really got to hit, there's probably a reason, and it'll serve decently if you can't get Armor-Percing Thrust, which targets Reflex and gains Dex to both attack and damage. Only 1W, but that's a very solid power if you're specced right. Sweeping Blow is an enemies only close burst 1 that you get a decent attack bonus to - great for minion killing and mass marking. Rain of Blows does get the top spot for the sheer damagocity that RoB can get with its 3 attacks.

*PALADIN*
C+ / Arcing Smite
B / Invigorating Smite
A- / Righteous Smite
B- / Staggering Smite

Arcing Smite has its uses, but it's pretty lackluster overall. Maybe as a level 1 encounter, like Passing Strike. Staggering Smite is next in order - you can get a very solid push off of that and it does decent damage. Invigorating Smite and Righteous Smite are both very similar. Invigorating actually heals damage and does not go against AC, but requires bloodied. Righteous Smite works on everyone, even the fully healed, but is otherwise pretty standard fare.

*RANGER*
B+ / Cut and Run
A / Disruptive Strike
F / Shadow Wasp Strike
A- / Thundertusk Boar Strike

How does Shadow Wasp Strike appear on the same level as the other three choices? Cut and Run is a solid little power, basically a nice upgrade over level 1's Evasive Strike. Thundertusk Boar Strike is solid damage and can result in a very nice push, and at quite a range too. Disruptive Strike lets you interrupt an enemy's attack by almost guaranteeing it will miss if you hit, which seems invaluable. Of course, I'd not be surprised to see people use it too early to prevent a really good attack, just using it as an action free damage source and minor defensive boost.

*ROGUE*
B+ / Bait and Switch
C+ / Setup Strike
B- / Topple Over
C- / Trickster's Blade

Trickster's Blade is okay - sorta like fighting defensively. Setup Strike is okay, but the advantage only applies to you an no one else, so it compares less well to effects like daze which help a whole party and actually limit the creature. Topple Over primarily looks pretty good because of the very large bonus to attack. Bait and Switch attacks Will and lets you shift several squares - like a combination Leaf on the Wind and Evasive Strike.

*WARLOCK*
B / Eldritch Rain
B / Fiery Bolt
A+ / Frigid Darkness
A- / Otherwind Stride

Eldritch Rain is acceptable damage and a very versatile ranged option, but it has nothing special about it in terms of status effect or damage. Fiery Bolt lets you deal very solid area effect damage to creatures next to the primary target without rolling to hit if you hit the primary. Otherwind Stride can provide a sizable teleport and is great for killing minions or immobilizing some melee types who jumped the back lines or sides. Frigid Darkness is solid damage, sets up combat advantage for all... then gives a massive penalty to AC. This screams 'power play' with setting up multiple dailies (or just one, like Cascade of Blades).

*WARLORD*
B- / Hold the Line
C+ / Inspiring War Cry
B- / Steel Monsoon
A / Warlord's Strike

Inspiring War Cry does reasonable damage and the saving throw is an Effect, which is nice... so it seems decent, but not exceptional. Hold the Line does low damage, but its Effect seems quite handy. Steel Monsoon is feels like a solid baseline - the standard 2W damage and then pretty much 'all allies within 5 can shift 1'. Warlord's Strike is the best of the bunch, probably, especially combined with multiple attack abilities. Using this before your ranger and Rain of Blows fighter goes so they get +6 or so to damage rolls? Killer.

*WIZARD*
A- / Color Spray
B+ / Fire Shroud
B+ / Icy Rays
B / Shock Sphere
B- / Maze of Mirrors

Maze of Mirrors appears reasonable from a pure control standpoint, but doesn't kill minions or avoid allies and is only burst 1, so it feels like a lesser option here. Icy Rays is a versatile ranged option for okay damage with a decent side effect. Comparing to Eldritch Rain, a very similar spell, it does less damage but immobilizes and the target's can be anywhere within 10 of caster (so up to 20 apart) instead of having to be within 5 of each other. Shock Sphere is a nice big area to toss out early on to catch enemies before your allies are too close in their midst.  Fire Shroud is a sizable close burst that targets enemies only, so that's quite good. Color Spray gets my nod for best option... close blast 5 is a decent size even if it's not great to be that close, but it's also radiant and can daze a large quantity of foes. Sounds good.

I was sorta asleep typing up this round, so I apologize if there are any blatant errors, ramblings, whatever.


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## Mengu (Jul 6, 2008)

Cleric:
I know you really value attack bonuses, but in this case, I think Command is better than Blazing Beacon. It's exceedingly good in a solo fight. A 20% increase in hit chance means out of 5 attacks your allies generate, one that would have missed, may now hit. So that's essentially 1 additional hit. Giving them a free round of attacks without retaliation will net more hits than that, almost guaranteed.

Fighter:
I would value Sweeping Blow a bit higher than Rain of Blows, because like you mentioned it can mark a whole bunch of targets. Also its abilities are attached to a better weapon, not to mention it gives you a nice attack bonus. Dance of Steel is pants. May as well give it an F.

Paladin:
Arcing Smite does a good job of letting the Paladin play his Defender role, so I think it deserves a better grade. If Split the Sky is a C+ with the knockdown, I don't see why Staggering Smite is a B- without the knockdown. The extra damage on it is nice, but knockdown is much nicer, not to mention the former ability is vs Fortitude, whereas the latter is vs AC.

Ranger:
Dead on.

Rogue:
In the absence of an action point (which is half the encounters) I like Setup Strike better than Topple Over, since the combat advantage it grants me lasts longer. I might rank Topple Over a bit higher since it helps allies too, but not a whole grade higher. Trickster's Blade is also more interesting than you give it credit for, because you can make a ranged attack with it, and the AC bonus is against everyone. I think it's a very reasonable opening move with that crossbow when you have combat advantage for 4d6+dex damage (4d8+dex with 2 feats). That's better than a C- in my book.

Warlock:
Fiery Bolt deals oodles of damage (which fits the Warlock's job description), so I have a difficult time putting it lower than Otherwind Stride. I'd rate them about equal.

Warlord:
I only have one big disagreement here. Inspiring War Cry should be the top of the list. This attack ability as an encounter power is a rare gem. And since it's an Effect, it triggers independent of the result of your attack roll. Getting your Striker or Defender un-dazed before they act can be very important. Between Shake It Off and Inspiring War Cry, you can provide a healthy bit of relief to your party. Next best are Warlord's Strike and Steel Monsoon. I don't much like Hold the Line because it's very difficult to get your allies to stand still next to you.

Wizard:
If Otherwind Stride is a B-, why is Icy Rays C-? Immobilized is a fantastic condition to inflict on an enemy. And you get to inflict it upon two enemies. It's something you can use almost every encounter since it's ranged. I find Close Blasts like Color Spray are much harder to use.


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## SJay (Jul 6, 2008)

These are very useful threads keterys.

I agree (or close enough to agreeing) with most of your ratings.

However Fox's Cunning as a D seems quite low...

Yes it is conditional but:

a) with a two-weapon ranger those conditions are going to be met in almost any encounter that matters (and it means you get three attacks in a round while maintaining a little extra maneuverability that helps...)

b) with a bow ranger it acts as more of a way to get away from the close combat dudes when they close in with you. (and when it does trigger you will end up doing more damage on average in that turn than if you had taken ANY of the other level 1 ranger powers... since you have to include the damage from a Twin Strike in there).

Obviously it's not as good as Disruptive Strike, but I personally rate Disruptive Strike as A+. Note that half the reason both of these attacks are as good and this is partly because Rangers have such a good at will power.

Personally I would give it a B+... the other level 1 ranger powers would be around the same.

Cheers,


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## keterys (Jul 6, 2008)

Mengu said:


> Cleric:
> I know you really value attack bonuses, but in this case, I think Command is better than Blazing Beacon.




I really hate having to upgrade the +attack/-defense ones so much because of their effect on other powers, but it's a "potential" awesome - you can use it to upgrade your Thirsting Maw, Fireswarm, Confounding Swarm, etc. Just looking at Confounding Swarm alone, +4 to just that one character's attacks (and he could spend an action point) makes stunning far more likely and is a solid damage upgrade. Damage + Stun that is better than any other Encounter 3 power, without factoring in action points or other characters, or things like warlord's giving extra attacks.



> I would value Sweeping Blow a bit higher than Rain of Blows, because like you mentioned it can mark a whole bunch of targets. Also its abilities are attached to a better weapon, not to mention it gives you a nice attack bonus. Dance of Steel is pants. May as well give it an F.




I personally like Sweeping Blow better, but Rain of Blows is the highest damage output option available and what's wrong with flails?



> Arcing Smite does a good job of letting the Paladin play his Defender role, so I think it deserves a better grade.




Fair.



> If Split the Sky is a C+ with the knockdown, I don't see why Staggering Smite is a B- without the knockdown. The extra damage on it is nice, but knockdown is much nicer, not to mention the former ability is vs Fortitude, whereas the latter is vs AC.




Hmm, that sounds like I made a mistake. Let me bring that up... Okay, Staggering is a Str-based, so its Wis squares could easily be 4 or 5 squares. It does +1W but AC instead of Fort. Though I'll note that Fort is not a whole lot better than AC, so maybe that's what I was thinking. Hmm, I think I should probably up Split the Sky a step - cause my original score was better for it.



> Rogue:
> In the absence of an action point (which is half the encounters) I like Setup Strike better than Topple Over, since the combat advantage it grants me lasts longer. I might rank Topple Over a bit higher since it helps allies too, but not a whole grade higher.




Honestly, I don't like either... but most of Topple's upgrade is from the +4 or so to hit from Brutal Scoundrel. Especially for a rogue, actually hitting nets you another 2 to 3d8 damage. That said, I think I overvalued Topple and I'll adjust it lower. Would you argue I undervalued Setup as well? 



> Trickster's Blade is also more interesting than you give it credit for, because you can make a ranged attack with it, and the AC bonus is against everyone. I think it's a very reasonable opening move with that crossbow when you have combat advantage for 4d6+dex damage (4d8+dex with 2 feats). That's better than a C- in my book.




Hmmhmm. Toss a dagger in, gain the bonus, maneuver somewhere less safe... okay, I was underestimating that.



> Fiery Bolt deals oodles of damage (which fits the Warlock's job description), so I have a difficult time putting it lower than Otherwind Stride. I'd rate them about equal.




I had rated them pretty close, but changed my mind after seeing both in use a bit more. Otherwind Stride immobilizes a creature then teleports you _far_ away, and you can even take a move afterwards. That's a great synergy of effects... but the main reason stride is rated so highly, it's just a big teleport. It's pretty comparable to the level 6 Wizard daily utility, Dimension Door. Except it's every 5 minutes.



> Warlord:
> I only have one big disagreement here. Inspiring War Cry should be the top of the list. This attack ability as an encounter power is a rare gem. And since it's an Effect, it triggers independent of the result of your attack roll. Getting your Striker or Defender un-dazed before they act can be very important. Between Shake It Off and Inspiring War Cry, you can provide a healthy bit of relief to your party.




 I like saves as much as the next guy, but I was having trouble comparing to other powers - like Shake it Off, but even like Sacred Flame, an at-will. You only need to give people saves so often at the level range this will come up and it's not a save with any kind of bonus. Mostly I just figured that a level 3 attack power that gave a save should do slightly more, like go against another defense, give a Cha bonus to it if you're an inspiring warlord, give an option for temp instead of a save, etc. I'm willing to upgrade it if others agree, though. It's certainly solid.



> Wizard:
> If Otherwind Stride is a B-, why is Icy Rays C-? Immobilized is a fantastic condition to inflict on an enemy. And you get to inflict it upon two enemies. It's something you can use almost every encounter since it's ranged. I find Close Blasts like Color Spray are much harder to use.




A-, B-... and it's all about that teleport. Immobilized is decent, but it doesn't necessarily bother a ranged opponent (unless it allows melee to get up to them) or a melee opponent (unless his attacks can't reach) so I'd certainly rate it lower than daze. While close spells are tougher to use, they also don't provoke, so that counterbalances to a certain extent. You can, for instance, Color Spray then move away without being OA-ed. I wouldn't want only close spells, but having a selection is good. I do like Icy Rays a lot - that's why I set it to B-. How powerful is the custom targetting? Would it make sense to upgrade both Icy Rays and Eldritch Rain?


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## keterys (Jul 6, 2008)

SJay said:


> However Fox's Cunning as a D seems quite low...
> 
> Yes it is conditional but:
> 
> a) with a two-weapon ranger those conditions are going to be met in almost any encounter that matters (and it means you get three attacks in a round while maintaining a little extra maneuverability that helps...)




Hmm, I'm not sure I considered it from that angle. As a bow ranger, it's very easy to end up not using it at all, but it's a bit more likely for a two weapon ranger. The free attack + twin strike is more on par with the other encounters, it's true... though what about the ranger who doesn't take Twin Strike? 

Yeah, totally kidding. 

I upped it to C+ for now and I'll keep it in the back of my mind, or if anyone else weighs in, for potential further improvement.


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## Fedifensor (Jul 6, 2008)

keterys said:


> Split the Sky looks really nice, until you realize the enemy is just going to stand and charge.



You use Split the Sky to give the defender time to move up and engage.



> Command lets you daze and choose between prone or slid a fair ways, which is a very powerful controlling combo. No damage, though.



Command lets you cover for the absence of a Wizard or Warlord by providing a control effect (daze) and moving the enemy.



> Blazing Beacon provides a sizable +4 bonus to all ranged attacks against a target for a turn, which can be used for many attacks in a round by most members of the party, including action points, dailies, etc, so gets to be top of the pile.



It's helpful, but most fighters, paladins, and warlords will have melee weapons in hand, not ranged weapons.  Same with two-weapon rangers and battle clerics.  I would say that it isn't as useful as you think.



> Rain of Blows does get the top spot for the sheer damagocity that RoB can get with its 3 attacks.



I would lower the rating simply because light blades, spears, and flails are generally subpar weapons for a fighter.



> Invigorating Smite and Righteous Smite are both very similar. Invigorating actually heals damage and does not go against AC, but requires bloodied. Righteous Smite works on everyone, even the fully healed, but is otherwise pretty standard fare.



The usefulness depends on how often your party members get bloodied.  Since this is an encounter, not a daily, I'd have to give the nod to Righteous Smite (even though it attacks a typically higher defense).



> Disruptive Strike lets you interrupt an enemy's attack by almost guaranteeing it will miss if you hit, which seems invaluable.



And it increases your damage per round, because it's an interrupt that goes off on someone else's turn.  The combination of reducing damage and increasing your damage potential makes it a winner.



> Trickster's Blade is okay - sorta like fighting defensively.



A +2 or +3 to AC with no penalties to hit or damage?  It's better than you give it credit for.  A trickster rogue should have at least a +2 Charisma modifier by 4th level, and the ubiquitous halfling rogue should have a +3.  I'd rate it as high as Bait and Switch - you can't always get away from foes, and the next best thing is to raise your AC so they're less likely to hit.



> Setup Strike is okay, but the advantage only applies to you an no one else, so it compares less well to effects like daze which help a whole party and actually limit the creature.



A daze effect can be saved against before you get another chance to act.  What Setup Strike does is prepare you for the use of a Daily power without having to blow an Action Point to ensure you keep combat advantage.



> Fiery Bolt lets you deal very solid area effect damage to creatures next to the primary target without rolling to hit if you hit the primary.



I don't consider damage equal to your secondary stat modifier to be "very solid" for an encounter power, though I will agree that it's an amazing minion killer.



> Hold the Line does low damage, but its Effect seems quite handy.



Effects, not effect.  The +2 power bonus to AC to adjacent allies, and the ability for them to completely ignore push/pull/slide is huge.  I would move this up to a B, or even a B+.



> Maze of Mirrors appears reasonable from a pure control standpoint, but doesn't kill minions or avoid allies and is only burst 1, so it feels like a lesser option here.



A typical wizard will have a +4 or +5 Int bonus to begin with, raising another point during the heroic tier.  Giving a -5 or -6 penalty to a group of enemies for a turn can waste a bunch of their actions with whiffs, immobilize can neutralize melee foes, AND this power can be extended with Orb mastery for another full turn.  I think you have significantly underrated this power, at least for Orb wizards.  It is the king of control for this level.



> Icy Rays is a versatile ranged option for okay damage with a decent side effect.



In relation to Color Spray, it's much worse.  Only 2 points more damage on average, only targets two foes instead of an area, the secondary effect is not nearly as good, and the damage type is worse (cold is more resisted, and less prone to getting bonus damage than radiant).  It's only advantage is range, which is of minimal use (if you're fighting targets that use ranged attacks, immobilize is worthless).  Okay if you have all the cold feats (and you won't Lasting Frost until Paragon tier), otherwise suboptimal.



> Fire Shroud is a sizable close burst that targets enemies only, so that's quite good.



The overall area covered by Fire Shroud is HUGE, it only affects enemies, and the damage (including the minimum one round of ongoing damage) is better than any of the other powers at this level.  It does take a slight hit for targeting Fortitude, but the damage potential makes up for this.



> Shock Sphere is a nice big area to toss out early on to catch enemies before your allies are too close in their midst.



The damage is the same as a level 1 encounter power with the same area (Burning Hands), and only slightly more than your at-will AoE power (Scorching Burst).  The area is nice, but the lack of any secondary effect really lowers this power in my eyes.



> Color Spray gets my nod for best option.



Maze of Mirrors is competitive with Color Spray.  The damage on Color Spray is nice, but keep in mind that while it's decent damage at level 3, you'll have this power all the way to level 17.  At level 16, Maze of Mirrors can dish out up to a -7 to hit.  It can also be used at a longer range than Color Spray.


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## Cadfan (Jul 6, 2008)

My general objection remains.  You can't meaningfully compare powers between classes because a power's worth is directly dependent on its context.  Cleave ranks well for Fighters, for example, but would suck if we gave it to Wizards.  This in ability to rate powers without context also creates an inability to mix and match at wills in home brew materials based upon ratings assigned in a void.

That being said,

1. Daunting Light.  I'd rate  it at least a B.  Its the first Cleric Encounter power that lets a Wisdom Cleric boost her own damage versus a single target.  Also, granting combat advantage is pretty decent, especially with a Rogue in the party.  You can potentially get a LOT of extra damage from this power, if used properly and in conjunction with your allies.

2. Armor Piercing Thrust.  I'd give it at least a B.  You get dex to your attack roll, AND you target reflex defense.  And adding [dex] to damage has the potential to be very, very close to adding an additional [W] when wielding a spear, meaning that the total damage is on par for its level.  This power is actually best the higher your level, as your dex is likely to grow.  This has the potential to be a mainstay until at least epic tier, when your at will powers upgrade and this does not.  If this was reprinted as a level 23 encounter power that was in all ways identical except that it did 2 or 3[W] base damage, I'd rate that power highly as well.

3. Crushing Blow.  I'd take off the minus.  It only works with weapons that have big dice, and its a 2[W] power, with a small boost in damage beyond that.  A lot of the early fighter powers are like this.  There's nothing special about their bonus abilities, but they involve multiplying big numbers by two.  The Fighter in my group uses this with a +1 maul.  He does 4d6+7 when he hits with Crushing Blow, for an average of 22 damage.  Its a workmanlike power.  At the least, I wouldn't rate it below Precise Strike.

4. Fearsome Smite and Shielding Smite are really, really similar.  They do the same thing to different targets.  Fearsome Smite is best against elites and solos, and Shielding Smite is best when you have an ally being attacked by multiple foes.  When Shielding Smite is appropriate, it has a better effect, but perhaps its less often useful.  I'd rank them equal.

5. There's no way that Dire Wolverine Strike and Sweeping Blow should have the same rating.  This is the problem with considering these things in a vacuum.  First, Dire Wolverine Strike has the obvious disadvantage of not giving you an attack bonus, making Sweeping Blow strictly superior if used with the appropriate weapons and a strength of at least 14.  But beyond that, Dire Wolverine Strike is a ranger power that requires two one handed weapons, but only actually uses one of them, while Sweeping Blow is compatible with the two handed weapons available to the Fighter, or, if the Fighter is using a one handed weapon, he's getting the benefits of a Shield in addition to the same benefit from the power.  In either case, he's better off.

6. Fox's Cunning is a great power.  It gets your ranged Ranger out of melee reach when he's in trouble, and lets him have a basic attack at an attack roll bonus outside of his regular turn order.  An attack outside of turn order is just as good as a 2[W] attack, if not better, because it adds an additional [W] AND all the bonuses that happen per attack, like dex and magic enhancement.  Think about it- you use Two Fanged Strike, hit with everything, and get 2[W]+2[dex]+2[magic enhancement]+[wis].  I attack with Fox's Cunning, and on my turn also with Twin Strike, getting me a total of 3[W]+1[dex]+3[magic enhancement].  Net, I've got 1[W]+1[magic] that you haven't, and you've got 1[dex]+1[wis] that I haven't.  Its pretty similar damage, and possibly is in my favor.  Plus I got to shift.

The only restriction is that someone has to attack you in melee.  If you're careful, you can avoid letting this happen, but if you're accustomed to circling around and in close a lot of the time in order to benefit from Prime Shot and your choice of Hunter's Quarry targets, this will happen more often than you think.

7. I agree with the low rating of Vampiric Embrace, but I think it only makes sense in context of an Infernal Pact Warlock.    Taken in a vacuum, its a really good power.  Its also not a bad choice for a NON infernal pact warlock, for example, if you are a Star Pact Warlock who doesn't like Dreadful Word.  I think its actually a B or so, then.  It will probably get replaced as you advance in level, but its nice to have around for a while.

8. I'd give Burning Hands a B.  Every Wizard should have at least one Close spell.  Also, "Fire Wizard" is a very viable build, and this fits smoothly into it.  It also has the biggest area of effect of any level 1 encounter Wizard power.

9. Ray of Enfeeblement is nice against Elites and Solos, which aren't a Wizard's traditional foes.  This gives it some extra value in my opinion.  I'd at least change the C- to a C+.


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## Mengu (Jul 6, 2008)

keterys said:


> I really hate having to upgrade the +attack/-defense ones so much because of their effect on other powers, but it's a "potential" awesome



I agree it's potentially awesome. But even without the +4, getting a round of free attacks from everyone on a solo is no less awesome. 



keterys said:


> I personally like Sweeping Blow better, but Rain of Blows is the highest damage output option available and what's wrong with flails?



Nothing wrong with flails I guess. Dex 15 is the part I don't particularly like. You might be able to setup a fighter to get Dex 15 at level 11, but this lowers the potential of Rain of Blows for about 8 levels.



keterys said:


> Honestly, I don't like either... but most of Topple's upgrade is from the +4 or so to hit from Brutal Scoundrel. Especially for a rogue, actually hitting nets you another 2 to 3d8 damage. That said, I think I overvalued Topple and I'll adjust it lower. Would you argue I undervalued Setup as well?



Not by much, maybe a C+. I'm not very thrilled about any of the 4 rogue encounter powers at this level really. Bait and Switch is probably the best.




keterys said:


> but the main reason stride is rated so highly, it's just a big teleport.



I can see the value there, especially if you are a Warlock in a small party. But teleporting doesn't kill stuff, and that's what the Warlock is supposed to be doing as striker.




keterys said:


> I like saves as much as the next guy, but I was having trouble comparing to other powers - like Shake it Off, but even like Sacred Flame, an at-will.



I guess this is one of those that will depend on party composition. If the Warlord is the only healer type in a party, Shake It Off and Inspiring War Cry will be very valuable. If there is also a Paladin and a Cleric in the party, then not so much. In a vaccum, I can see where it may not be construed as the best level 3 warlord attack power.




keterys said:


> How powerful is the custom targetting? Would it make sense to upgrade both Icy Rays and Eldritch Rain?



I think it would, because I actually had Eldritch Rain pegged higher as well. If you happen to kill your first target, you might even get to Misty Step to a more advantageous position before taking that second shot to maybe benefit from Prime Shot.


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## keterys (Jul 6, 2008)

Fedifensor said:


> You use Split the Sky to give the defender time to move up and engage.




Yeah, I'll up it in a second.



> It's helpful, but most fighters, paladins, and warlords will have melee weapons in hand, not ranged weapons.  Same with two-weapon rangers and battle clerics.  I would say that it isn't as useful as you think.



I went into this in an earlier response, but just on the basis of one ranger using Confounding Arrows it compares nicely, and that's not the full extent of possibilities for it. I don't want to set it as high as I did, but I also would never want to design something that had a greater bonus to attack, etc.



> I would lower the rating simply because light blades, spears, and flails are generally subpar weapons for a fighter.



Light blades and spears are -1 damage per W, so I get that... but what's wrong with flails?



> The usefulness depends on how often your party members get bloodied.  Since this is an encounter, not a daily, I'd have to give the nod to Righteous Smite (even though it attacks a typically higher defense).



I was totally going to have Righteous higher, but hitting Will is good stuff too. At the level you get it (even though it will definitely decrease in usefulness after that), it also heals a little less than a surge's worth any combat you're bloodied... and defenders get bloodied a lot.



> And it increases your damage per round, because it's an interrupt that goes off on someone else's turn.  The combination of reducing damage and increasing your damage potential makes it a winner.



Absolutely, it's awesome.



> A +2 or +3 to AC with no penalties to hit or damage?  It's better than you give it credit for.  A trickster rogue should have at least a +2 Charisma modifier by 4th level, and the ubiquitous halfling rogue should have a +3.  I'd rate it as high as Bait and Switch - you can't always get away from foes, and the next best thing is to raise your AC so they're less likely to hit.



Yeah, I'll up it shortly.



> A daze effect can be saved against before you get another chance to act.



Not if it lasts 'until the end of your next turn'  Like Dazing Strike, for instance.



> What Setup Strike does is prepare you for the use of a Daily power without having to blow an Action Point to ensure you keep combat advantage.



It's just not that hard to get combat advantage. I'd rather have Dazing Strike (Level 1) than Setup Strike (Level 3). 



> I don't consider damage equal to your secondary stat modifier to be "very solid" for an encounter power, though I will agree that it's an amazing minion killer.



It's 1d6 + Con + Int damage. In half the uses of it I've seen so far, the secondary damage has been more than the primary.

Though I blame luck a bit on that one, but still 



> Effects, not effect.  The +2 power bonus to AC to adjacent allies, and the ability for them to completely ignore push/pull/slide is huge.  I would move this up to a B, or even a B+.



One 'Effect' line is what I meant - and I think it's awesome. It's not reactive, however (you can't predict forced movement a lot of the time), and requires that allies be adjacent (so give up, say, flank or otherwise position themselves less fortunately for attack, and line up for area attacks)... and it does low damage vs. AC. I do like it a lot which is why it's a B-, but I already had one response that it was the worst of the Warlord abilities of that level, so I'll let things sit for a bit on it.



> A typical wizard will have a +4 or +5 Int bonus to begin with, raising another point during the heroic tier.  Giving a -5 or -6 penalty to a group of enemies for a turn can waste a bunch of their actions with whiffs, immobilize can neutralize melee foes, AND this power can be extended with Orb mastery for another full turn.  I think you have significantly underrated this power, at least for Orb wizards.  It is the king of control for this level.



Orb only works on at-wills... or did they errata that? It's very much an area burst 1 that screws opponents for a round if it hits. It just doesn't do anything else. So I have to weigh it not only against 'Well, what if a damaging power means that you'd actually kill the target a round faster' but also that it's not useful against minions, one of the top AoE targets.



> The overall area covered by Fire Shroud is HUGE, it only affects enemies, and the damage (including the minimum one round of ongoing damage) is better than any of the other powers at this level.  It does take a slight hit for targeting Fortitude, but the damage potential makes up for this.



Yeah, I like fire shroud a lot... but I suspect I rounded down for targetting Fortitude. I hate doing that, but for an AoE that implies you're in melee range, I think I have to. 



> The damage is the same as a level 1 encounter power with the same area (Burning Hands), and only slightly more than your at-will AoE power (Scorching Burst).  The area is nice, but the lack of any secondary effect really lowers this power in my eyes.



While I agree, it is the largest and most usable (Area > Close, Burst > Blast) area attack at that level range. I could see lowering it, but being able to potentially hit an entire room's worth of guys early on with it is pretty good stuff.



> Maze of Mirrors is competitive with Color Spray.  The damage on Color Spray is nice, but keep in mind that while it's decent damage at level 3, you'll have this power all the way to level 17.  At level 16, Maze of Mirrors can dish out up to a -7 to hit.  It can also be used at a longer range than Color Spray.



I'll upgrade Maze of Mirrors, but I'm not sure I see it as being equal to Color Spray. Daze is more effective for enabling your allies (bonus to hit, sneak attack, moving without provoking, etc) and removing options, though the expected damage denial is in Maze's favor... and I don't consider close blast 5 worse than area burst 1.


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## keterys (Jul 6, 2008)

Cadfan said:


> This in ability to rate powers without context also creates an inability to mix and match at wills in home brew materials based upon ratings assigned in a void.




Can you clarify context? I mean, I think we are rating them with context for how they're used.



> 1. Daunting Light.  I'd rate  it at least a B.  Its the first Cleric Encounter power that lets a Wisdom Cleric boost her own damage versus a single target.  Also, granting combat advantage is pretty decent, especially with a Rogue in the party.  You can potentially get a LOT of extra damage from this power, if used properly and in conjunction with your allies.




It's definitely good damage and I was tempted to rate it higher, but raw 'combat advantage to one guy' does seem worse than many of the status effects... like knocks prone is more powerful, even. Anyone else have a feeling on this one?



> 2. Armor Piercing Thrust.  I'd give it at least a B.  You get dex to your attack roll, AND you target reflex defense.  And adding [dex] to damage has the potential to be very, very close to adding an additional [W] when wielding a spear, meaning that the total damage is on par for its level.  This power is actually best the higher your level, as your dex is likely to grow.  This has the potential to be a mainstay until at least epic tier, when your at will powers upgrade and this does not.  If this was reprinted as a level 23 encounter power that was in all ways identical except that it did 2 or 3[W] base damage, I'd rate that power highly as well.




I did give it a B, for those reasons, so sounds like we're in agreement.



> 3. Crushing Blow.  I'd take off the minus.  It only works with weapons that have big dice, and its a 2[W] power, with a small boost in damage beyond that.  A lot of the early fighter powers are like this.  There's nothing special about their bonus abilities, but they involve multiplying big numbers by two.  The Fighter in my group uses this with a +1 maul.  He does 4d6+7 when he hits with Crushing Blow, for an average of 22 damage.  Its a workmanlike power.  At the least, I wouldn't rate it below Precise Strike.




I think Crushing Blow would be a great level 1 encounter ability, it just got bumped down because it's level 3 effectively... I agree on the Precise Strike comparison. I'll up to a C.



> 4. Fearsome Smite and Shielding Smite are really, really similar.  They do the same thing to different targets.  Fearsome Smite is best against elites and solos, and Shielding Smite is best when you have an ally being attacked by multiple foes.  When Shielding Smite is appropriate, it has a better effect, but perhaps its less often useful.  I'd rank them equal.




I'll get back to this one later, don't have time to crunch some math. I had been thinking that it affects all defenses, not just 1, and helps against area effects, etc, I can at least say that much.



> 5. There's no way that Dire Wolverine Strike and Sweeping Blow should have the same rating.  This is the problem with considering these things in a vacuum.  First, Dire Wolverine Strike has the obvious disadvantage of not giving you an attack bonus, making Sweeping Blow strictly superior if used with the appropriate weapons and a strength of at least 14.  But beyond that, Dire Wolverine Strike is a ranger power that requires two one handed weapons, but only actually uses one of them, while Sweeping Blow is compatible with the two handed weapons available to the Fighter, or, if the Fighter is using a one handed weapon, he's getting the benefits of a Shield in addition to the same benefit from the power.  In either case, he's better off.




Two things: DWS is level 1, Sweeping Blow is level 3. I should probably put a disclaimer up, but higher level powers should be better than lower level ones. Next, a TWF Ranger likely deals 1d10+1 with his bastard sword while getting his +1 AC/Reflex shield bonus... which is either more damage than the fighter, or more shield bonus than the fighter. 



> 6. Fox's Cunning is a great power.  It gets your ranged Ranger out of melee reach when he's in trouble, and lets him have a basic attack at an attack roll bonus outside of his regular turn order.  An attack outside of turn order is just as good as a 2[W] attack, if not better, because it adds an additional [W] AND all the bonuses that happen per attack, like dex and magic enhancement.  Think about it- you use Two Fanged Strike, hit with everything, and get 2[W]+2[dex]+2[magic enhancement]+[wis].  I attack with Fox's Cunning, and on my turn also with Twin Strike, getting me a total of 3[W]+1[dex]+3[magic enhancement].  Net, I've got 1[W]+1[magic] that you haven't, and you've got 1[dex]+1[wis] that I haven't.  Its pretty similar damage, and possibly is in my favor.  Plus I got to shift.




I was totally undervaluing this for melee rangers, I suspect it's going to climb up even more but I don't want to make too many snap decisions without giving people time to give input.



> 7. I agree with the low rating of Vampiric Embrace, but I think it only makes sense in context of an Infernal Pact Warlock.    Taken in a vacuum, its a really good power.  Its also not a bad choice for a NON infernal pact warlock, for example, if you are a Star Pact Warlock who doesn't like Dreadful Word.  I think its actually a B or so, then.  It will probably get replaced as you advance in level, but its nice to have around for a while.




For a non-infernal, it's only 5 temp hp, and it's low range (5) and necrotic damage (pretty much the worst one).



> 8. I'd give Burning Hands a B.  Every Wizard should have at least one Close spell.  Also, "Fire Wizard" is a very viable build, and this fits smoothly into it.  It also has the biggest area of effect of any level 1 encounter Wizard power.




Glad to see some support of close spells, I was beginning to think I was the only one 



> 9. Ray of Enfeeblement is nice against Elites and Solos, which aren't a Wizard's traditional foes.  This gives it some extra value in my opinion.  I'd at least change the C- to a C+.




It doesn't deal a ton of damage, targets Fortitude, is necrotic, and only weakens one round, which likely only prevents maybe 10 damage at the levels you have it.


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## Cadfan (Jul 6, 2008)

keterys said:


> Two things: DWS is level 1, Sweeping Blow is level 3. I should probably put a disclaimer up, but higher level powers should be better than lower level ones. Next, a TWF Ranger likely deals 1d10+1 with his bastard sword while getting his +1 AC/Reflex shield bonus... which is either more damage than the fighter, or more shield bonus than the fighter.



I think we both know it isn't reasonable to give the TWF Ranger the advantages of three different feats (proficiency with bastard swords, two weapon fighting, two weapon defense), while comparing to a Fighter who is getting none.

Even assuming similarly outfitted characters, a sword/shield Fighter can take a bastard sword as well, at the same cost.  Then he can take Weapon Focus, giving him the same damage.  He still has a feat free, and his shield is twice as good as the Ranger's Two Weapon Defense feat.  Oh, and his attack bonus is better by 1 due to class abilities.  On top of that, his power gives him about +2 to his attack roll.

He's going to be more able to get into the center of foes (Tide of Iron can let him walk right in even if a foe used to be in the way), more survivable while he's there (better hp, better ac), more accurate by +3 with the attack, and oh, he gets to mark everyone in the close burst 1.  And he has a feat unspent.

This is what I mean by judging powers in context.  By the letter, DWS consists of almost the same text as SB.  But the Fighter is an absolute machine when using powers like SB, while the Ranger is... not _bad_, of course... but not particularly great.  A Fighter gets better use out of Sweeping Blow _even if he doesn't use an associated weapon._  The comparison is that much in his favor.


> For a non-infernal, it's only 5 temp hp, and it's low range (5) and necrotic damage (pretty much the worst one).



5 temp hp is ok for an Encounter power, at least from where I'm sitting.  It buffers you against one attack, which is fine for a ranged combatant.  I'm sure this power would get replaced once level 13 rolls around, or perhaps even before, but from levels 1 to 5 I think its worth using for a Star Pact Warlock.  As for the damage type, I think you're overly concerned about necrotic damage.  Yes, it comes up once in a while, but when it does its very obvious, and the Star Pact Warlock already has Radiant damage on tap.


> It doesn't deal a ton of damage, targets Fortitude, is necrotic, and only weakens one round, which likely only prevents maybe 10 damage at the levels you have it.



But Weaken is a quite powerful effect to give to an elite or solo enemy, or to something with area of effect attacks.  And again, Necrotic isn't THAT bad.  Its not like you're going to accidentally cast this on a zombie, and if you know you're in a campaign where you're fighting undead over and over, you can just not take it.  For the rest of us, who fight undead occasionally, it works just fine.


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## Korror (Jul 6, 2008)

keterys said:


> I
> *ROGUE*
> B+ / Bait and Switch
> C+ / Setup Strike
> ...




I agree with most of your other points but I think there are a few factors you may be overlooking in your grading of the rogue encounter powers. First off, I think you're rating movement effects too highly. Remember that a rogue's purpose is to deal tons of damage and bring down the dangerous mob before it kills the party. Sliding then only helps the purpose of rogues by enabling the rogue to gain combat advantage and sneak attacks. Thus movement powers are only good when the follow two conditions occur: 1) There is another meele party member somewhere nearby 2) You don't have combat advantage and are unable to gain it with normal movement. Gaining your sneak attack damage is very important but I feel that you can rely on your  normal movement/other party members abilities to gain combat advantage for the majority of the time.

With that said, I would rate the rogue's 3rd level encounter powers this way.

1) Bait and Switch B
Despite what I said up there, I do recognize that Bait and Switch is a nice power mainly for the attack against Will and the respectable damage dealt. Any movement is icing on the cake.

2) Setup Strike B+
For all those situations where no other ally is nearby, you need some way of gaining combat advantage or you simply will not keep up with the rangers or warlocks. Setup Strike addresses a critical weakness in the rogue's abilies and thus I rate it highly.

3) Topple Over C+
They're prone, so what? Prone is easily reversible and doesn't grant combat advantage without spending an action point. The only thing that saves this power from a C rating is the to hit bonus. Inferior to Setup Strike in most respects.

4) Trickster's Blade C-
If the monsters are solely attacking you, you'd probably be better off using riposte strike and getting free attacks back. The bonus to AC is not that large and the monsters can ignore it by attacking someone else. Never give your opponent choices if you can help it.


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## Katsue (Jul 6, 2008)

Mengu said:


> Nothing wrong with flails I guess. Dex 15 is the part I don't particularly like. You might be able to setup a fighter to get Dex 15 at level 11, but this lowers the potential of Rain of Blows for about 8 levels.



Humans, Dragonborn and Elves can get Strength 18, Dex 15, and Wis 13 (15 for an Elf) at level 1, so I don't know where you're getting your 8 levels from. Now Dragonborn are probably better off with axes or hammers, but the Dex build is perfectly viable for Humans and Elves.

In any case, Rain of Blows isn't 3 attacks, it's 2 attacks, plus 0-2 secondary attacks. You can see it in the formatting. If it was 2 attacks plus a secondary attack, it would be written thus:

Primary Target: One Creature
Attack: Strength vs AC, two attacks
Hit: [1W] + Strength modifier damage
Effect:
  Weapon: If you're wielding a light blade, a spear or a flail and have             Dexterity 15 or higher, make a secondary attack. 

The fact that there is no Effect line, and that the Weapon entry is indented directly below the Hit entry means that the secondary attack is a consequence of hitting.


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## Mengu (Jul 6, 2008)

Katsue said:


> Humans, Dragonborn and Elves can get Strength 18, Dex 15, and Wis 13 (15 for an Elf) at level 1, so I don't know where you're getting your 8 levels from. Now Dragonborn are probably better off with axes or hammers, but the Dex build is perfectly viable for Humans and Elves.



That only leaves a 12 for Con, and I can't quite bring myself to start with such a low Con for a Defender, especially if I'm a Dragonborn. I would at best start Dex at a 14. That's enough to get Scale Armor Specialization at level 11.




Katsue said:


> In any case, Rain of Blows isn't 3 attacks, it's 2 attacks, plus 0-2 secondary attacks.



I was averaging it out to 3 attacks, but you are correct it is 2 plus 0-2.


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## Katsue (Jul 6, 2008)

Mengu said:


> That only leaves a 12 for Con, and I can't quite bring myself to start with such a low Con for a Defender, especially if I'm a Dragonborn.



It's 13 Con for the Human/Dragonborn, which brings you up to the magic number 28. (An Elf gets the same for a 16/16/16 Str/Wis/Dex spread) For a Human Fighter, a higher Con than that is probably suboptimal since it cuts into your Will and/or Reflex defences for very little hit point gain. 



			
				Mengu said:
			
		

> I would at best start Dex at a 14. That's enough to get Scale Armor Specialization at level 11.



You want 19 Dex at level 21 in order to qualify for Spear or Flail Mastery. Which pretty much means you want 20 Dex at level 30, because otherwise you're wasting bonusses. In fact, if you're using a Flail, you want to pump your Dex bonus even higher, because Chains of Sorrow is outrageously good in combination with Rain of Blows. A spearfighter is probably best off maximising his Wis in order to gain the best benefit from Pit Fighter and to qualify for Polearm Gamble and Uncanny Dodge at level 11.


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## LittleElvis (Jul 6, 2008)

I would bump up the value of Righteous Smite. You could be in a party of 6 and grant 8 temporary hp to each of them, including yourself. That's a lot of hp. At third level, it's about like giving everyone an extra healing surge per encounter (assuming you hit), without anyone having to spend an action to get the surge value.

Invigorating Smite is useful so much less often, to so many fewer members of your party in most cases.

Righteous>>>Invigorating IMO, even with targeting AC. The powers become much less valuable at higher levels, but Righteous Smite is very powerful at lower levels IMO.


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## keterys (Jul 6, 2008)

Korror said:


> 1) Bait and Switch B
> Despite what I said up there, I do recognize that Bait and Switch is a nice power mainly for the attack against Will and the respectable damage dealt. Any movement is icing on the cake.




Since that icing includes swapping places with the enemy and potentially setting them up for something else nasty, it can be sweet icing indeed 



> 2) Setup Strike B+
> For all those situations where no other ally is nearby, you need some way of gaining combat advantage or you simply will not keep up with the rangers or warlocks. Setup Strike addresses a critical weakness in the rogue's abilies and thus I rate it highly.




So you consider it better than the 1st level Dazing Strike? I think it's an easy, easy call to keep Dazing Strike over Setup Strike.



> 3) Topple Over C+
> They're prone, so what? Prone is easily reversible and doesn't grant combat advantage without spending an action point. The only thing that saves this power from a C rating is the to hit bonus. Inferior to Setup Strike in most respects.




At 11th level, I calculate it as doing the equivalent of better than a 3W attack with the +4 hit bonus (bumping a 1d8+3d8SA+5 Dex+3 Enh+2 Foc hit at 60% to 80% bumps avg dmg from around 19.2 to around 25.6, while a raw 3W attack would be around 24.6, but I'm handwaving crits). So the hit bonus is quite respectable.


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## keterys (Jul 6, 2008)

LittleElvis said:


> I would bump up the value of Righteous Smite. You could be in a party of 6 and grant 8 temporary hp to each of them, including yourself. That's a lot of hp. At third level, it's about like giving everyone an extra healing surge per encounter (assuming you hit), without anyone having to spend an action to get the surge value.
> 
> Invigorating Smite is useful so much less often, to so many fewer members of your party in most cases.
> 
> Righteous>>>Invigorating IMO, even with targeting AC. The powers become much less valuable at higher levels, but Righteous Smite is very powerful at lower levels IMO.




Anyone else want to weigh in on this? Basically, I completely agree that the bloodied requirement is a huge penalty on the healing effect, but I'd also say that healing 8 is better than temporary hp 8, and that most importantly having a 75% chance to hit against Will compared to a 60% chance against AC is a huge deal since it does nothing at all if it misses.

So something like, let's say you get 24 temp hp out of Righteous 60% of the time = 14.4 temp and heal 12 hp out of Invigorating 75% of the time, so 9 healed... so 5.4 temp vs. 25% more damage and the comfort of more reliable results.


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## Mengu (Jul 7, 2008)

Katsue said:


> It's 13 Con for the Human/Dragonborn, which brings you up to the magic number 28.



I don't know what magic number you're talking about but the typical build we use are with 22 point buy.




Katsue said:


> You want 19 Dex at level 21 in order to qualify for Spear or Flail Mastery. Which pretty much means you want 20 Dex at level 30<snip>



For the most part, when we are (or rather, I am) looking at how useful these powers are I compare them at their level not at level 30. The next few levels may weigh in a little bit on the decission and value of a power, but what ability I can use at level 30 is typically the least of my concerns.


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## Fedifensor (Jul 7, 2008)

keterys said:


> I went into this in an earlier response, but just on the basis of one ranger using Confounding Arrows it compares nicely, and that's not the full extent of possibilities for it. I don't want to set it as high as I did, but I also would never want to design something that had a greater bonus to attack, etc.



My point is that it's very party-dependent.  The pregens at the LFR preview I played at Origins definitely weren't designed for the power, with only the warlock getting a real benefit.  Everyone else was melee oriented except the wizard (who was poorly designed by not having Scorching Burst or Thunderwave).



> Light blades and spears are -1 damage per W, so I get that... but what's wrong with flails?



Lower attack bonus than blades, less impressive feat choices than blades or hammers, not as many good choices for magic weapons, and the 19 Dex requirement for Flail Mastery is a killer.  They're good for one thing - attacking people with shields (at Paragon tier and higher).  Otherwise, you're usually going to be better off with a different weapon type.



> I was totally going to have Righteous higher, but hitting Will is good stuff too. At the level you get it (even though it will definitely decrease in usefulness after that), it also heals a little less than a surge's worth any combat you're bloodied... and defenders get bloodied a lot.



It takes time to get bloodied.  Furthermore, if the Defenders are being hit a lot, that's an even bigger argument for a power that grants temporary hit points...you won't have to worry about them stacking with other sources of temp HP if the targets burn through them.



> Orb only works on at-wills... or did they errata that?



Not yet, though it should be just a matter of time - the duration extension is nearly useless on at-will powers.  Regardless, the Orb of Inevitable Continuance can also extend a power by a turn, and it's not limited by the type of power.



> It's very much an area burst 1 that screws opponents for a round if it hits. It just doesn't do anything else. So I have to weigh it not only against 'Well, what if a damaging power means that you'd actually kill the target a round faster' but also that it's not useful against minions, one of the top AoE targets.



Repeat after me - "there is more to wizards than damage potential and killing minions".  Neutralizing opponents for a round as a controller is not a bad thing, especially if your objective is more than killing the bad guys.  If you have to get to the magic gizmo, and you can immobilize a large portion of bad guys and make them whiff their attacks, it's a lot easier to achieve your goal.

If you just want to kill minions, you have Scorching Burst, and your other encounter and daily powers.



> Yeah, I like fire shroud a lot... but I suspect I rounded down for targetting Fortitude. I hate doing that, but for an AoE that implies you're in melee range, I think I have to.



If you can hit more targets than you can with another power of the same level, then you'll end up with as many or more total hits even if you're attacking a higher defense.



> While I agree, it is the largest and most usable (Area > Close, Burst > Blast) area attack at that level range. I could see lowering it, but being able to potentially hit an entire room's worth of guys early on with it is pretty good stuff.



I'd lower it to a straight B, personally.  Fire Shroud does more damage and can hit more foes, and Color Spray just stomps it into the ground with the added daze effect.



> I'll upgrade Maze of Mirrors, but I'm not sure I see it as being equal to Color Spray. Daze is more effective for enabling your allies (bonus to hit, sneak attack, moving without provoking, etc) and removing options, though the expected damage denial is in Maze's favor... and I don't consider close blast 5 worse than area burst 1.



Not having to step to the front line to use the power is a big plus in my eyes.  Now, for a daily, I'm willing to put myself at the forefront of the battle.  Otherwise, unless I'm playing a high defense build (like the Iron Mage), getting that close seems risky to me.


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## keterys (Jul 7, 2008)

> Repeat after me -



"Dead Men Tell No Tales!"

Or, rather. "Death is the best control".

It should be abundantly obvious from my many ratings that I consider dazing or reducing hit extremely good, better than a few points of damage here or there. But I'm telling you straight out that if this spell did even 1d4 damage with no Int bonus it would probably be generically a lot more useful. At least you'd get enhancement bonus, etc


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## Mengu (Jul 7, 2008)

keterys said:


> Anyone else want to weigh in on this? Basically, I completely agree that the bloodied requirement is a huge penalty on the healing effect, but I'd also say that healing 8 is better than temporary hp 8, and that most importantly having a 75% chance to hit against Will compared to a 60% chance against AC is a huge deal since it does nothing at all if it misses.



As I mentioned earlier, I value Righteous Smite more than Invigorating Smite, despite the lower chance to hit.

Earlier in the combat, bonuses to hit are more plentiful as the cleric, warlord, or rogue will using their encounter powers for early adventages. If the Paladin can benefit from one or more of these, he can pull off an early Righteous Smite with decent reliability. Later in the encounter, you are basically fighting the Leader to beat him to the punch of healing bloodied people, but the Leader won't stand still, he'll be healing bloodied people. Now you have to wait for that healing to deplete. By that time, the number of enemies left will be fewer, which means they'll be generating fewer attacks. So they might get one, maybe two people down to bloodied, and that's going to be the extent of healing you can provide.

I'd say in a party without a Leader, Invigorating Smite may be a bit better, but if there is already a leader (which should be the case in most balanced parties), Righteous Smite is more beneficial. Whenever you are facing an enemy Controller, the enemy controller chews through those temporary hit points very quickly, and everyone will be glad they had them. Same can be said when facing lots of Minions or Skirmishers, this would be the way the Paladin as Defender could keep the back line safe for a little while.


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## Katsue (Jul 7, 2008)

Mengu said:


> I don't know what magic number you're talking about but the typical build we use are with 22 point buy.



A 1st level fighter with 13 Con has 28 hit points, which gives them a healing surge value of 7. And the numbers I quoted are eminently doable with 22 point buy. 



			
				Mengu said:
			
		

> For the most part, when we are (or rather, I am) looking at how useful these powers are I compare them at their level not at level 30. The next few levels may weigh in a little bit on the decission and value of a power, but what ability I can use at level 30 is typically the least of my concerns.



Well then, take into consideration the fact that Rain of Blows, when you meet the requirements for the secondary attacks, does more single target damage than any other Fighter power of any level. Does that make it seem worth putting +1 into Dex at 4th level?


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## Korror (Jul 7, 2008)

keterys said:


> Since that icing includes swapping places with the enemy and potentially setting them up for something else nasty, it can be sweet icing indeed




Like what though? You only switch places so you can't use it to push them into something nasty and if you want to use it to group up monsters for some good wizard blasting fun, you have to start out flanked. I do agree that's its a nifty power but I see its use being more to slingshot yourself behind enemy ranks than to set up the monsters for anything.



keterys said:


> So you consider it better than the 1st level Dazing Strike? I think it's an easy, easy call to keep Dazing Strike over Setup Strike.




Why not keep both?  My rogue isn't up to the level where he's started replacing things yet but I like to have lots of ways to make sure I still get SA damage.



keterys said:


> At 11th level, I calculate it as doing the equivalent of better than a 3W attack with the +4 hit bonus (bumping a 1d8+3d8SA+5 Dex+3 Enh+2 Foc hit at 60% to 80% bumps avg dmg from around 19.2 to around 25.6, while a raw 3W attack would be around 24.6, but I'm handwaving crits). So the hit bonus is quite respectable.




+4 hit bonus means a starting STR of at least 16 right? I can't see that being practical as that would preclude a starting 18 DEX. Maybe a dragonborn rogue could start with 16 STR but it seems excessive for rogues who really want their primary stat as high as possible.

Also once you're at the point where +hit is so valuable, you might be better off with Bait and Switch since most creature's will defense is 2-4 lower than their AC.  The additional +1 to hit from starting with 18 DEX/14 STR instead of 16/16 coupled with attacking a monster whose AC >= Will + 3 will give you more than 4.5 increased average damage to say nothing of moving the monster around.


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## Korror (Jul 7, 2008)

keterys said:


> Initial stab in the dark - hopefully folks can help refine things.
> 
> *CLERIC*
> A / Blazing Beacon
> ...




Just thought I'd comment on the Cleric powers as well.

1) Blazing Beacon  A (or C+ depending on the group)

Blazing Beacon seems one of those powers which really depends on your group composition. If you're ever in a party with 2+ ranged attackers then it shines but this does not seem to be a common occurrence at least from the games I've seen. If you only have a wizard, it seems a waste compared to some of the other options.

2) Command  A

It's really really good and would be A+ if it did any damage. Nothing much to say here. Dazed + prone means they're out of the fight for a round and the ability to slide is quite useful.

3) Daunting Light  B-

It does decent damage at least and the combat advantage is sometimes helpful. A solid power though not as nifty as Command.

4) Split the Sky B-

This is only slightly better than Righteous Brand but there are some tricks you can pull off with it. If the target is dazed then Split the Sky will take them out of combat for sometime which means it combos nicely with Wrathful Thunder. If hit and then move towards them 1 square, they'll be unable to charge after standing up. My experience with a melee cleric is limited so I'm not sure how often useful situtation like this occur so the B- is tentative.


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## keterys (Jul 7, 2008)

Korror said:


> Like what though? You only switch places so you can't use it to push them into something nasty




You can if you use some other attack to set it up, where that can be an area effect, zone, conjuration, tide of iron off of something, or whatever. And the amount you shift with it is on par or greater than Tumble.



> but I see its use being more to slingshot yourself behind enemy ranks than to set up the monsters for anything.




Oh totally - I'm just pointing out that it's solid due to targetting Will for solid damage before the special effect, and that special effect is actually quite versatile and effective. Some soldier's guarding a doorway and an artillery is bombing you past it? Etc. If it didn't target Will, of course, it would rate lower.





> Why not keep both?




The point is that I'm not going to score it as effectively better than a level 1 power that it's worse than  You can certainly have both if you don't have party members to flank with often... but it just makes it an adequate option rather than exceptional.



> +4 hit bonus means a starting STR of at least 16 right? I can't see that being practical as that would preclude a starting 18 DEX. Maybe a dragonborn rogue could start with 16 STR but it seems excessive for rogues who really want their primary stat as high as possible.




Depends on if they use the standard array and if they are a race with a Str bonus. I was assuming point buy, but if you use a standard array and aren't a Str race, then you could make the example 14th. Or just make it +3 and it would be slightly under 3W instead of slightly over.



> Also once you're at the point where +hit is so valuable, you might be better off with Bait and Switch since most creature's will defense is 2-4 lower than their AC.




Well, yes, that is one reason why I'm arguing for the vs. Will in a couple powers as being quite strong.


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## Goumindong (Jul 7, 2008)

We talked earlier about weakening. It looks like weakening is one of those special snowflake powers similar to how magic missile synergies well with warlord powers that grant attacks.

Well, Tactical Warlords have another power, an _encounter power_ that gives the entire party a bonus equal to his intelligence modifier _to hit_ against any enemy weakened... until the end of the encounter.

I.E. If you have a Tactical Warlord who picks this up all your weakening powers give your friends +4 (though +8) to attack against the enemy you weaken in each and every encounter you fight through.

Suddenly Weaken doesn't seem so bad.


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## LittleElvis (Jul 7, 2008)

keterys said:


> Anyone else want to weigh in on this? Basically, I completely agree that the bloodied requirement is a huge penalty on the healing effect, but I'd also say that healing 8 is better than temporary hp 8, and that most importantly having a 75% chance to hit against Will compared to a 60% chance against AC is a huge deal since it does nothing at all if it misses.
> 
> So something like, let's say you get 24 temp hp out of Righteous 60% of the time = 14.4 temp and heal 12 hp out of Invigorating 75% of the time, so 9 healed... so 5.4 temp vs. 25% more damage and the comfort of more reliable results.




I would say you'd get an average of at least 28 temp hp from Righteous (7 temp hp per each to four people in the party; in some cases it could be 8 temp hp to five or six characters). And an average of about 8 hp healed from Invigorating.

To personally benefit from Invigorating, you have to _first_ be bloodied. In a fair number of combats, you will _never_ start your turn bloodied (because you will get bloodied on an enemy's turn, if at all, and then get healed by your leader before your turn). And, when you finally are bloodied, there's a real good chance that no one else around you is going to be bloodied right then. So the average hp healed has to factor in that you may never even get a chance to use it, or not be able to use it on yourself.

Even if your ally is bloodied and you're not (you can still use it to heal the ally or allies), healing 7 hp or gaining 7 temp hp is pretty much the same thing.

Whereas, you and your party can _always_ benefit from temp hp. Unless it's at the end of the combat, I guess, but if you have Righteous you're always going to want to use that early on in the combat to get the benefits of temp hp and to use it while everyone is within 5 squares of you (ideally).

In the heat of combat, temp hp are just as valuable as healed hp. True, healed hp helps you save healing surges, but if survival during an encounter is the issue, there is no practical difference. And actually a Dragonborn would generally rather be bloodied, but with temp hp (+1 to hit) than not bloodied, assuming the same number of total hp (actual + temp)--unless the opponent gains a big advantage against you when you're bloodied.

While you're going to land Invigorating more often (roughly +15% more), you're going to gain so many more total (temp) hp from Righteous in the vast majority of cases, and this can also help your party save many healing surges. I think Righteous is far better.


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## LittleElvis (Jul 7, 2008)

Another benefit of Righteous is that since all you need to do is hit, you may as well try to trigger its hit effect early in the combat by targeting the weakest opposing AC you can. If you do that, the difference of hitting AC vs Reflex is less significant. Just whomp the weakest enemy you can, and it's a free temporary hp buffet to everyone within 5 squares. Very nice.


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## keterys (Jul 7, 2008)

Upgraded righteous and command, downgraded shock sphere. Added a disclaimer to Blazing Beacon so it bothers people less.


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## LittleElvis (Jul 8, 2008)

keterys said:


> Upgraded righteous and command, downgraded shock sphere. Added a disclaimer to Blazing Beacon so it bothers people less.




Getting there 

Righteous Smite is just filthy, sick, good. Let's you deal 2[w] _and_ potentially save your party 4-6 healing surges? Per encounter? Starting everyone in your party off with an extra 7 or 8 temp hp is ridiculous at third level.

It really should be a Daily Power IMO. Heck of a lot better than "Paladin's Judgment," I'd say, and that's a Daily. I wouldn't give it anything less than an A, but that's just me.


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## LittleElvis (Jul 8, 2008)

And another thing. The temp hp are much better than healed hp there. If it was just healing, then you could only benefit the party members who were _already _wounded. Giving temporary hp allows you to help anyone, anytime.

Prevention > Cure


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## Mengu (Jul 8, 2008)

LittleElvis said:


> Righteous Smite is just filthy, sick, good. <snip>I wouldn't give it anything less than an A, but that's just me.




I concur. Though it's hard to compare a healing power to others, I think it's better than Command, which gets an A-. It's more potential healing than Warlord's Strike does for damage, and healing is supposed to be a more valuable commodity than damage.


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## Fedifensor (Jul 9, 2008)

Are we ready to move on to the Level 7 powers?


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## keterys (Jul 9, 2008)

Yeah, I intend to put them up tomorrow. I'm trying to space things out to give people some time to digest and comment, so I put up the daily today so I can start alternating which I do.


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## keterys (Jul 10, 2008)

*Encounter 7 Reasoning*

A decent subset of these powers did not appear more powerful than level 1 or 3 powers, at first glance. Some certainly are, however, so there's a stronger grading disparity perhaps. That said, I tried not to let my disappointment cloud my scoring, but I have some concerns so... show me wrong. Lots. The at-wills had a lot more contention and debate to 'em 

*CLERIC*
C / Awe Strike
C / Break the Spirit
B+ / Searing Light
A- / Strengthen the Faithful

*Awe Strike *is decent in that it targets Will and immobilizes for a round, but it only does 1W damage and immobilize on a melee attack won't generally result in a lack of action or OA, just inconvenience in targetting or moving.
*Break the Spirit *would be a bit better if there wasn't the Wis/Cha MAD to consider, but it's decent radiant damage and a penalty to attacks at least.
*Searing Light *is a little less damage than Break the Spirit, but blind is an immensely better effect.
*Strengthen the Faithful *is a fantastic power in a melee heavy group or when rushing to the aid of a ranged character in melee. That could easily trigger 3 healing surges with both Wis and Cha added for the cleric.

*FIGHTER*
A- / Come and Get It
B- / Griffon's Wrath
C- / Iron Bulwark
D+ / Reckless Strike
C- / Sudden Surge

*Come and Get It *is forced movement without an attack, allows the fighter to mark and probably get a challenge attack in, groups enemies up for the resulting attack. Just real nice.
*Griffon's Wrath *sets up a round's worth of AC attacks against the enemy nicely.
*Iron Bulwark *is best used when mobbed by a group of enemies, but frankly an Encounter 7 should really start looking a lot more solid than the At-Will Priest's Shield by now.
*Reckless Strike *is decent damage, but taking a penalty to hit negates much of the point and it has nothing special to it otherwise.
*Sudden Surge *is probably intended for maybe spear toting Eladrin warriors and there is some potential benefit there, but it's fairly disappointing. Compare to Evasive Strike or Cut and Run for a more amusing comparison.

*PALADIN*
C+ / Beckon Foe
C+ / Benign Transposition
B+ / Divine Reverence
C / Thunder Smite

*Beckon Foe *I actually like quite a bit - solid damage, pulling a creature to the paladin to deal with - but its range is lackluster and the Cha/Wis MAD hurts its pulling potential some (not that it ever needs more than 4)
*Benign Transposition *suffers from a severe MAD-induced short range, but is still a pretty nifty and useful effect attached with an okay attack attached.
*Divine Reverence *is a close burst daze. If only it were a 'Weapon' attack it'd be a solid A. Definitely the winner of the paladin powers for me at this level, though.
*Thunder Smite *Solid damage, prone isn't bad - this would have been a solid level 3 power. Maybe there's something special you can do with the crit to make this a bit cooler though?

*RANGER*
B+ / Claws of the Griffon
B- / Hawk's Talon
B- / Spikes of the Manticore
A- / Sweeping Whirlwind

*Claws of the Griffon *is pretty much Two-Fanged Strike but slightly more consistent damage. Still quite solid for damage.
*Hawk's Talon *is potentially a huge bonus to attack if you factor in cover and concealment. It's not exciting, but it's solid.
*Spikes of the Manticore *is like a lesser Split the Tree. Solid performer.
*Sweeping Whirlwind *is the non-boring Ranger power of the level and it's actually quite impressive. Sweep around and push several squares and knock prone? That's nice and should actually be useful all the way through to 23 when you replace level 7 encounter powers.

*ROGUE*
B- / Cloud of Steel
A / Imperiling Strike
C+ / Rogue's Luck
B+ / Sand in the Eyes

*Cloud of Steel *is a good-sized close blast that targets enemies only. Damage isn't high, but honestly it doesn't need to be.
*Imperiling Strike *is a massive power play. Vs Fortitude isn't a huge bonus, but it's a nice option for mixing things up, and penalty to AC and Reflex equal to Str modifier will set up many followup attacks, especially at high paragon or low epic.
*Rogue's Luck *is a cute mechanic that does make it tremendously likely that you'll hit, but its damage will never be impressive and it carries no other special effect.
*Sand in the Eyes *targets Reflex and blinds for a round. Slightly low damage, but great power.

*WARLOCK*
B- / Howl of Doom
B- / Infernal Moon Curse
A- / Mire the Mind
B- / Sign of Ill Omen

*Howl of Doom *is sorta like Thunderwave's big brother. Seems decent.
*Infernal Moon Curse *is solid damage and its immobilize seems more useful than, say, Awe Strike's, for example.
*Mire the Mind *is low damage, but it effectively blinds the target (which is great stuff) and gives a sizable bonus to Stealth, presumably resulting in multiple more combat advantage opportunities.
*Sign of Ill Omen *is slightly low damage, but it completely screws the target's next attack.

*WARLORD*
B+ / Lion's Roar
A- / Sunder Armor
B+ / Surprise Attack
B- / Surround Foe

*Lion's Roar *gets marked up a bit purely because it's a guaranteed healing surge. In the hands of an inspiring warlord I suspect it's pretty much equivalent to the Daily 1 Paladin's Blessing.
*Sunder Armor *has nice synergy with 'on crit' abilities and feats and is marked up almost purely on the assumption that action points and/or dailies and such are magnified by this power.
*Surprise Attack *is really solid damage, particularly when grouped with a rogue or someone who does more damage than the warlord.
*Surround Foe *gets points for its set up ability, but honestly I think it's best at saving someone cornered. 

*WIZARD*
B / Fire Burst
B / Lightning Bolt
B- / Spectral Ram
A- / Winter's Wrath

*Fire Burst *is very solid range and area, good damage, but no special effects. Almost like there's a steady progression of Scorching Burst -> Shock Sphere -> Here.
*Lightning Bolt *I love the versatile attack mechanism. It suffers primarily from low damage, but this is a nice little low level chain lightning effect.
*Spectral Ram *is solid damage with the push and knocks prone. On that note, I wonder if the better trick with push and knocks prone might be to push 1 - if you do, the target can't charge you. The target can crawl and attack, but it provokes and sets up combat advantage. 
*Winter's Wrath *is a great area spell. Solid size and great damage, some of it automatic, and the party rogue can even step through it to gain Stealth.


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## Carpe DM (Jul 10, 2008)

keterys said:


> Anyone else want to weigh in on this? Basically, I completely agree that the bloodied requirement is a huge penalty on the healing effect, but I'd also say that healing 8 is better than temporary hp 8, and that most importantly having a 75% chance to hit against Will compared to a 60% chance against AC is a huge deal since it does nothing at all if it misses.
> 
> So something like, let's say you get 24 temp hp out of Righteous 60% of the time = 14.4 temp and heal 12 hp out of Invigorating 75% of the time, so 9 healed... so 5.4 temp vs. 25% more damage and the comfort of more reliable results.




I wonder if one also should include a calculus of fight volatility.  What I mean is: Invigorating Smite can turn a bad situation around, but Righteous Smite can keep a bad situation from developing.  Here's why it matters.

You have a 75% to hit Will with Invigorating, but there are more dire consequences if you fail because the ability is best used as an attempt to turn a bad situation around.  You can unload Righteous's 60% at the beginning of every encounter, but it's not the end of the world if it doesn't connect.  The party has time to recover.  Righteous is thus less dangerous to use--and if successful can turn a difficult encounter to an easy one.  Invigorating hits more often, but *is more dangerous to use.*  That is, missing the Invigorating will have a graver impact on the party's survivability, because you will have held the power until a moment of crisis.  Righteous on the other hand prevents fights from becoming volatile--everyone has a little bit of extra breathing space from the beginning of the encounter.

best,

Carpe


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## Korror (Jul 10, 2008)

keterys said:


> A decent subset of these powers did not appear more powerful than level 1 or 3 powers, at first glance. Some certainly are, however, so there's a stronger grading disparity perhaps. That said, I tried not to let my disappointment cloud my scoring, but I have some concerns so... show me wrong. Lots. The at-wills had a lot more contention and debate to 'em




I don't think the encounter powers in the same tier are meant to be better over the lower level ones. They give you more options but if they were strictly better than you'd always use your powers in descending order of their level which would be not very interesting. In my opinion, each power should be only be compared against the other ones for their level (see my liking for setup strike).

I'll give my opinions as soon as I get off of work and have access to the book again though I doubt any discuss will be as controversial as the debate over the wizards at-will powers. (Cloud of Daggers is a horrible choice  )


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## keterys (Jul 10, 2008)

Korror said:


> I don't think the encounter powers in the same tier are meant to be better over the lower level ones.




The average is definitely moving up, just not all the powers.


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## keterys (Jul 10, 2008)

Upgraded Righteous, Eldritch Rain, Icy Rays.


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## Mengu (Jul 10, 2008)

For level 7's. No comment means I agree.

Fighter:
Sudden Surge is an F as far as I'm concerned. I'd take Reckless Strike before Sudden Surge, at least I can coup de grace something with it when needed.

Ranger:
I like Claws of the Griffon a little better than Sweeping Whirlwind. This again may have something to do with my expectations of what a striker needs to be doing. The potential focused damage from Claws of the Griffon is quite impressive for an encounter power. And all you need for reliability is a bonus against a single opponent, which is not hard to obtain.

Rogue:
Not too surprisingly, I like Rogue's Luck a bit better than a C+. Missing a 1d4 damage doesn't concern me so much, when I can hit with such reliability and get in my extra 2d6 or 2d8 damage. I would rate all the Rogue powers just about equal. I know why Imperiling Strike is an A, but I don't think it's as critical a power for the rogue. I'd give B+'s to Imperiling Strike, Rogue's Luck, and Sand in the Eyes. B or B- seems fine for Cloud of Steel.


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## keterys (Jul 10, 2008)

While I obviously agree that Sudden Surge is pretty crappy, a Dex fighter (one working towards that Dex 19 feat for epic, for instance) could get real mileage (har har) out of it. So much in the same way that Deft Strike is potentially nice, it gives the fighter more options.

I just can't see them being taken over the other way cooler fighter powers at that level 

I felt a bit iffy on the Rogue's Luck score - maybe I'll have time to do a more rigorous analysis on it this weekend.

Claws of the Griffin is way better single target damage, but Sweeping Whirlwind is also a get out of jail free card for a ranger who gets in trouble and gets mobbed. Or a crazy one who charges in to set up attacks on prone people. It has good synergy with hazards, zones, walls, and such.


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## Korror (Jul 11, 2008)

Mengu said:


> For level 7's. No comment means I agree.
> Rogue:
> Not too surprisingly, I like Rogue's Luck a bit better than a C+. Missing a 1d4 damage doesn't concern me so much, when I can hit with such reliability and get in my extra 2d6 or 2d8 damage. I would rate all the Rogue powers just about equal. I know why Imperiling Strike is an A, but I don't think it's as critical a power for the rogue. I'd give B+'s to Imperiling Strike, Rogue's Luck, and Sand in the Eyes. B or B- seems fine for Cloud of Steel.




By my calculations. Rogues's luck does an average of 18.3375 damage assuming 50% chance to hit and a d8 weapon/d8 SA/weapon focus and a +3 CHR bonus. If we assume a d4 weapon then it does an average of 15.6875. A straight 2W + dex Miss: half  damage does an average of 18 damage in the first case and 15 in the second case. Thus rogues luck is just a little bit better than 2W + dex Miss:Half damage. This doesn't seem very exciting to me and thus I think it deserves a C.

I'd also rate Sand in the Eyes and Imperiling Strike as equals. Imperiling strike gives you and your party around +3 to hit which is very good while Sand in their Eyes gives the opponent -5 to hit and grants CA which is +2 for everyone though it won't stack if you already have CA. Which is better probably depends on whether your party members haven't used their dailies and if they are able to gain CA through normal means.


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## Korror (Jul 11, 2008)

keterys said:


> *CLERIC*
> C / Awe Strike
> C / Break the Spirit
> B+ / Searing Light
> ...




One thing that I think you need to keep in mind is that any cleric who takes Break the Spirit or any other wisdom based power isn't going have to worry about Wis/Cha MAD. For a devoted cleric, Str doesn't offer much beyond the fort defense and it's perfectly possible for him to have a +4 Cha bonus by level 11. 


This makes Break the Spirit slightly better as it will be more likely to hit as it targets Will and the penalty is only 1 less than Searing Light. I'd say it rates a C+ or maybe even a B- at most. I agree that Searing Light is better in nearly all circumstances though. I have no disagreements with you on Awestrike andStrengthen the Faithful. Awe strike is more     appropriately named awful strike and strength the faithful is excatly the kind of power that the meele cleric should be using.


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## Gladius Legis (Jul 11, 2008)

Paladin:

Thunder Smite is _at least_ a B. Possibly a B+. That 19-20 crit range at _level 7_ is simply too good to ignore with an enchanted weapon of any sort in hand. And knocking prone is awesome because it sets up combat advantage and makes the enemy waste a turn. Also in Paragon Tier you can take the Solid Sound feat and get a free +2 untyped bonus to Fortitude, Reflex or Will for a turn.


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## keterys (Jul 11, 2008)

> One thing that I think you need to keep in mind is that any cleric who takes Break the Spirit or any other wisdom based power isn't going have to worry about Wis/Cha MAD.




While the cleric could invest deeply in both Wis and Cha, bumping them both at every time, etc allowing them to keep up with the non-MAD options... that means they're up to 4 defense behind their team mates.

So whether they're paying in terms of lower stat or paying in terms of lower defense, that's still a way in which the power is less effective (or a balancing mechanism on the power).


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## keterys (Jul 11, 2008)

Gladius Legis said:


> Paladin:
> 
> Thunder Smite is _at least_ a B. Possibly a B+. That 19-20 crit range at _level 7_ is simply too good to ignore with an enchanted weapon of any sort in hand. And knocking prone is awesome because it sets up combat advantage and makes the enemy waste a turn. Also in Paragon Tier you can take the Solid Sound feat and get a free +2 untyped bonus to Fortitude, Reflex or Will for a turn.




You could get Solid Sound, certainly... but you could also run into thunder resistance. The doubled crit range adds less than 1 point of average damage - I actually had handwaved it as adding 10% more damage which apparently was slightly high.

At 12th,
2d10 + 5 (Str) + 3 (Enh) + 2 (Feat) = 21 avg.
With 60% hit, 19-20 crit: 14.55 avg
With 60% hit, 20 crit: 13.575 avg
At paragon tier it's the same gap.


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## Goumindong (Jul 11, 2008)

keterys said:


> You could get Solid Sound, certainly... but you could also run into thunder resistance




You could get Solid Sound, but that seems only like a good idea for wizards or other classes which are going to have a thunder/lightning option every single round. +2 to one defense 1/encounter when you use a single limited use power just doesn't seem worth it to me over something that actually made you better.


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## keterys (Jul 11, 2008)

Hopefully they'll resolve the stupid weapon inheritance thing before someone claims solid sound is awesome for tanks since it lets you have +2 defense every round you attack with a thundering weapon (or whatever)


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## Gladius Legis (Jul 11, 2008)

keterys said:


> You could get Solid Sound, certainly... but you could also run into thunder resistance. The doubled crit range adds less than 1 point of average damage - I actually had handwaved it as adding 10% more damage which apparently was slightly high.
> 
> At 12th,
> 2d10 + 5 (Str) + 3 (Enh) + 2 (Feat) = 21 avg.
> ...



People have agonized over less of a DPR gap. And doubling a crit chance has its other benefits as well besides just adding extra damage per round, depending on weapon or feats.


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## keterys (Jul 11, 2008)

I'm not saying that it's not an increase. It's just like having a power that targets Fortitude, for instance. It all gets added in.


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## NorthSaber (Jul 11, 2008)

keterys said:


> Hopefully they'll resolve the stupid weapon inheritance thing before someone claims solid sound is awesome for tanks since it lets you have +2 defense every round you attack with a thundering weapon (or whatever)




Well actually feats like Lightning Reflexes etc already provide the +2 feat bonus to the defense in question, and Solid Sound doesn't stack with those... I find it about balanced that you either get +2 to defense X all the time, or +2 to defense X, Y, OR Z, and only for a round after you hit with a specific weapon/attack.

Actually, I'd probably choose the static defense bonus, as it also applies when you can't make attacks (like when you're being blasted from afar, or during a surprise round). 

The keyword inheritance is probably intended like this, IMO.


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## NorthSaber (Jul 11, 2008)

(double post, sorry)


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## keterys (Jul 11, 2008)

I think the Wand debate proves there are kinks in weapon inheritance to work out. Whether it's balanced or not in this particular instance


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## Gladius Legis (Jul 11, 2008)

NorthSaber said:


> Well actually feats like Lightning Reflexes etc already provide the +2 feat bonus to the defense in question, and Solid Sound doesn't stack with those...



Uh, actually, it does. Solid Sound's bonus is untyped, which means it stacks with everything.

It's feat bonuses like Lightning Reflexes that don't stack with _other feat bonuses_, which Solid Sound is not.

In any case, I don't mind the keyword inheritance at all. If you really want to marry yourself to one particular type of weapon, you're giving up feats you wouldn't need otherwise. And while Lasting Frost + Wintertouched is very good, it's not broken by any stretch, especially if your party is good at setting up combat advantage without it.


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## toxicspirit (Jul 12, 2008)

The Keyword loophole has been fixed. You actually have to use an Item's Power (which contains a Keyword) in conjunction with one of your own Powers (which is pretty much anything) in order to 'inherit' the Keyword. It isn't just a passive inheritance, in that the item's Power must be used for it to have any effect.


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## yu gnomi (Jul 12, 2008)

I didn't think Winter's Wrath would rank higher than Fire Blast, since Fire Blast does slightly more damage and doesn't grant concealment to your enemies (who presumably are the majority of the individuals in the blast).

As for the rogue stepping through concealment to hide, as far as I know he has to end his movement in the concealment to hide. This means he will take a small amount of auto damage as well.


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## NorthSaber (Jul 12, 2008)

Gladius Legis said:


> Uh, actually, it does. Solid Sound's bonus is untyped, which means it stacks with everything.




D'oh! I was sure it was a feat bonus - my bad. 

Are there any items that add the thunder keyword to all of your attacks, though? I think there's one for cold, fire, and lightning, but not for thunder.


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## keterys (Jul 12, 2008)

Fire Blast does less damage than Winter's Wrath, actually. 1.5 more on the initial blast, but Winter's Wrath does Int Mod additional damage guaranteed. So it's an automatic minion killer and does several more damage, especially if you have Lasting Frost... Int + 3.5 more damage more if you hit. And, of course, Int damage on Miss >> 0 

Because it only damages at start of turn and only lasts 1 turn, the party can benefit from the concealment without taking damage. The monsters can too, of course.


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## Crashy75 (Jul 15, 2008)

Could we get a rating for racial/class encounter powers?  Also, a utility thread would be great.


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## keterys (Jul 15, 2008)

Well, if I keep momentum I'd hope to have encounter and daily done before racial/class. Utility at some point in the middle or later of that, Paragon at some point probably after all of that. So... maybe some day, but I'll admit they're real late on my list. I could make a thread and let folks at it, but I'm not sure it would go far without moderation and prodding.


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## keterys (Jul 26, 2008)

*Encounter 13 Analysis*

*CLERIC*
C / Arc of the Righteous
B- / Inspiring Strike
A / Mantle of Glory
A / Plague of Doom

*Arc of the Righteous *is just okay. If you hit both times it's decent damage. 
*Inspiring Strike *is surge free healing and that's always desirable. The amount it heals is okay when you get it, but doesn't scale to that high. You could easily have situations in which Healing Strike heals more, does the same damage, and marks.
*Mantle of Glory *is decent radiant damage to an area that hits enemies only, which sounds pretty good. And oh, all allies can take healing surges in the area. Wow.
*Plague of Doom *does decent damage, but mostly it sets up power plays for the group with a Charisma (little MAD) penalty to all defenses.

*FIGHTER*
A+ / Anvil of Doom
A / Chains of Sorrow
C+ / Giant's Wake
B- / Silverstep
B- / Storm of Blows
C+ / Talon of the Roc

*Anvil of Doom *stuns. Stunning rocks.
*Chains of Sorrow *sets up power plays with a Dex penalty to all defenses.
*Giant's Wake *is fine, but honestly a close burst 1 would be better than this.
*Silverstep *won't see much use, but if you're the build for it, it hits two targets, pushes Dex squares, and lets you shift Dex squares. That's very versatile and useful.
*Storm of Blows *lets you shift up to 3 squares and attack up to 3 targets you can reach in those. That's nice and versatile, though the damage is a little low.
*Talon of the Roc *Why, hello Steel Serpent Strike. Enjoying your +1W upgrade? Still decent for keeping an enemy nearby.

*PALADIN*
C+ / Entangling Smite
B- / Radiant Charge
C+ / Renewing Smite
B / Whirlwind Smite

*Entangling Smite *is against Will defense, which is good, and immobilizes. I'm starting to appreciate immobilize a little more due to the number of zones and how many monsters have little they can do about being immobilized.
*Radiant Charge *deals good radiant damage and allows you to fly short distances.
*Renewing Smite *is... just like Inspiring Strike, but 5 points less healed and potentially more MAD. That's not a good comparison.
*Whirlwind Smite *is your basic close burst 1 against enemies only with good 2W damage and it marks those it hits. Seems solid.

*RANGER*
A / Armor Splinter
C+ / Knockdown Shot
B- / Nimble Defense
B- / Pinning Strike

*Armor Splinter *is yet another huge powerplay. This one with two attacks and a Wis or 2 + Wis penalty to AC.
*Knockdown Shot *is vs. Reflex, which is good, does only okay damage and knocks prone. 
*Nimble Defense *lets you get 2 + Wis bonus to AC while still doing decent damage. Good survival mechanism at least.
*Pinning Strike *is two attacks against one or two creatures that does lackluster damage unless combined on a single target and immobilizes. If you need to immobilize a specific target, being able to shoot both at it to have a double chance of immobilize is pretty nice though.

*ROGUE*
B- / Fool's Opportunity
A+ / Stunning Strike
B / Tornado Strike
C+ / Unbalancing Attack

*Fool's Opportunity *vs Will and uses the enemy's damage instead of your own. It mostly relies on what you're fighting to be cool, but if you fight lots of brutes and use a dagger, that's pretty solid.
*Stunning Strike *Stun still rocks, though the damage is a bit low here compared to Anvil of Doom.
*Tornado Strike *is a huge slide on up to two opponents, then a bit of a move after. I may have to revisit how I feel about pushes and slides now that I see that you get a save before every square that damages (and not just traps or falls, or something similar). The melee and/or ranged option can work out nicely here.
*Unbalancing Attack *is okay. At that point I think it mostly ensures the enemy chooses to not provoke. Combined with powers that force provokes like Cause Fear, this looks a bit cooler I suppose.

*WARLOCK*
D- / Bewitching Whispers
C+ / Coldfire Vortex
B- / Harrowstorm
C / Soul Flaying

*Bewitching Whispers *Way too easy for this to have no effect at all or just have enemies delay until after the target goes and the target goes to do its attack. At which point it may even get a bonus from this attack if it gets to OA any allies of the caster.
*Coldfire Vortex *So, if it hits it can be okay damage and the choice between cold and radiant is nice (though I suspect it would have done both cold and radiant if they'd had the errata-ed way of handling that in). Sorta like an upgraded Force Orb that does more damage. At shorter ranger. Without the 'enemies only'.
*Harrowstorm *That is a massive slide. You can probably effectively make an enemy lose its turn with this or put it in a really compromised location for it (like from all the way in the back lines to flanked by the fighter and rogue). If you got lucky on slides you could even have it run through all kinds of extra damage.
*Soul Flaying *does decent damage, the damage is necrotic (minor penalty), and it weakens for 1 round (which is fine, but still not all that great).

*WARLORD*
B / Beat Them Into the Ground
B- / Bolstering Blow
C+ / Denying Smite
C+ / Fury of the Sirocco

*Beat Them Into the Ground *That's... an awful lot of prone in some very versatile ways (like wizard magic missiling a far off person, rogue throwing a dagger, etc). It also can allow other effects like slides from rogue dailies that trigger whenever you attack, marks from fighters, etc. I'm not sure I'd take this personally but it's certainly interesting.
*Bolstering Blow *is a nice Warlord version of Inspiring Strike. Little more damage, lesser amount of temp hp (but less MAD) instead of regains.
*Denying Smite *actually feels like a defender power, but it seems great for just saying 'You will not attack this guy'. Of course, the enemy can then attack someone else for full effect so it's no stun or even blind.
*Fury of the Sirocco *is another generic 1W close burst 1 attack, but with a slide 1 on it. 

*WIZARD*
B / Frostburn
B / Mesmeric Hold
A- / Prismatic Burst
B- / Thunderlance

*Frostburn *dealing cold and fire is a nice bump especially since most creatures that resist one won't have the other (and may even be vulnerable) and it deals automatic zone damage which autokills minions.
*Mesmeric Hold *is versatile for hitting up to 3 targets or having a very good chance to hit one and goes against Will, often the weak defense of the melee you're best off immobilizing.
*Prismatic Burst *does radiant damage and blinds an area. Quite powerful.
*Thunderlance *is eerily similar to Thunderwave (and it's interesting how long Thunderwave can compare to other powers) - at any rate, solid damage and solid push.

So, I've had really little time so I did those a couple at a time when I had a minute here or there, so I'm a little worried about internal consistency but... it's more than enough to get chatting.


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## Mengu (Jul 26, 2008)

Fighter:
Between Anvil of Doom and Chains of Sorrow, stunning just seems superior. I'd give Chains of Sorrow an A- or B+.
I would also knock Silverstep to a C. It feels more like a utility power than an attack power.

Paladin:
I value healing a bit more than you I think, maybe it's just the kinds of experiences I've had, but I would push Renewing Smite up a knotch.
Whirlwind smite is very solid. it deserves at least a +. Marking that many enemies is a rare power for the Paladin.

Warlord:
I think Bolstering Blow is definitely better than Denying Smite. I would either increase one or decrease the other.

I pretty much agree with the rest.


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## keterys (Jul 26, 2008)

Mengu, since you wanted Renewing Smite and Bolstering Blow higher, I imagine you also want Inspiring Strike higher?

Chains of Sorrow (and the other powers that decrease defenses at this level) vs. Stun - it's all about setting up other powerplays. That is to say, like giving a -6 defense then having the rogue use Knockout or the wizard prismatic spray. And presumably there are four other attacks coming in after that. The damage increase actually ends up pretty huge when you factor out 5 attacks at, say, 50% more likely to hit.

Of course, what you do is use powers that give defense penalties _then_ use stunning powers, so they're less likely to be wasted.

Seems likely I should decrease denying smite, regardless of anything else, that looks like an error.


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## Branduil (Jul 26, 2008)

After doing the math yesterday Hawk's Talon seems to be notably inferior to Spikes of the Manticore unless you have an unnaturally large Wis bonus.


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## keterys (Jul 26, 2008)

Branduil said:


> After doing the math yesterday Hawk's Talon seems to be notably inferior to Spikes of the Manticore unless you have an unnaturally large Wis bonus.




Spikes of the Manticore is just worse for single target, and almost always better for two targets. If you could put both attacks into a single target, that'd be different though.


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## Gladius Legis (Jul 27, 2008)

Fighter:

Anvil of Doom is an A+ for hammer wielders. No question. That power is a keeper all the way to Lv. 30.

I'm also for taking Chains of Sorrow down to an A- or even a B+. It's a good power, to be sure, but you have to use a flail to make the most of it, and flails suck (no good feats).

Paladin:

Renewing Smite is a D at best, maybe even an F. Seriously, you're actually FAR better off taking the other of Invigorating Smite or Righteous Smite (the CHA-Paladin Lv. 3 powers, and as a side note, both those powers need bumping up to the A/A+ range). They do the same amount of damage and the healing is widespread (and in each case only 5 points less to all allies in the area than Renewing Smite's amount on only a single ally).

Rogue:

Stunning Strike is a flat out A, maybe even an A+. A stunning power could do 1 measly point of damage and it'd still get an A because stunning is really that good.

Warlord:

Fury of the Sirocco should be a B, at least. Rearranging enemies in a close burst to your tactical liking is a very powerful ability.


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## keterys (Jul 27, 2008)

Gladius Legis said:


> Fighter:
> 
> Anvil of Doom is an A+ for hammer wielders. No question. That power is a keeper all the way to Lv. 30.
> 
> I'm also for taking Chains of Sorrow down to an A- or even a B+. It's a good power, to be sure, but you have to use a flail to make the most of it, and flails suck (no good feats).




So, would you say that Anvil of Doom is possibly too powerful for its level or would be dangerous for another class to get?

Flails don't suck... Whether they get more or less feats in other supplements, who knows but their base statistics are in line and not everyone has feats to burn. Either way, if you're already a flail user for whatever reason, what mark should the power have? 



> Renewing Smite is a D at best, maybe even an F. Seriously, you're actually FAR better off taking the other of Invigorating Smite or Righteous Smite (the CHA-Paladin Lv. 3 powers, and as a side note, both those powers need bumping up to the A/A+ range). They do the same amount of damage and the healing is widespread (and in each case only 5 points less to all allies in the area than Renewing Smite's amount on only a single ally).




It's amusing how everyone has different feelings about healing... Renewing has one thing over Invigorating, it doesn't require bloodied... but yeah, it's even funnier to compare those against each other then against Inspiring and Bolstering and wonder what's going on here.



> Stunning Strike is a flat out A, maybe even an A+. A stunning power could do 1 measly point of damage and it'd still get an A because stunning is really that good.




If Anvil is A+, then it should clearly be an A, or perhaps an A+ as well. If Anvil is an A, then most likely it should be an A-. It's possible they should both be As, even though Anvil is more of a 2d10ish power than a 1d6ish... would be a little odd, but very possible. Stunning does, indeed, rock. Though it's a lot more balanced than in 3e since you have a lot more rounds and lot more enemies and it doesn't make you drop things.

At any rate, so roughly that's just asking - is stunning so powerful that when it's introduced at level 13 it's better than all other options and regardless of the damage of both they should both be A+?



> Fury of the Sirocco should be a B, at least. Rearranging enemies in a close burst to your tactical liking is a very powerful ability.




Not exactly to your tactical liking, since it's only slide 1. But certainly helpful. So, it seems worse than the other close bursts to compare against - for instance, it seems on par with the level 3 fighter Sweeping Blow, worse than the level 7 Ranger Sweeping Whirlwind, worse than the level 13 Paladin Whirlwind Smite.


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## Mengu (Jul 27, 2008)

Gladius Legis said:


> Paladin:
> 
> Renewing Smite is a D at best, maybe even an F. Seriously, you're actually FAR better off taking the other of Invigorating Smite or Righteous Smite (the CHA-Paladin Lv. 3 powers, and as a side note, both those powers need bumping up to the A/A+ range). They do the same amount of damage and the healing is widespread (and in each case only 5 points less to all allies in the area than Renewing Smite's amount on only a single ally).



You do have a valid point comparing it to the lower level abilities. It doesn't quite measure up to those. Comparing it to the Cleric Attack 13, Inspiring Strike, it heals about 10 points less, so even that comparison doesn't look good (though the paladin's job is not necessarily to be healer). However any healing is beneficial. So I wouldn't knock it down that much. I'll withdraw my earlier statement to increase it though.




keterys said:


> Flails don't suck... Whether they get more or less feats in other supplements, who knows but their base statistics are in line and not everyone has feats to burn. Either way, if you're already a flail user for whatever reason, what mark should the power have?



Flails wouldn't be bad, if swords weren't so good (and it's the proficiency bonus that makes it so). While not related to this discussion, if I was playing a Devoted Cleric, my melee weapon of choice would be a dagger because of that +3 proficiency bonus.




keterys said:


> It's amusing how everyone has different feelings about healing... Renewing has one thing over Invigorating, it doesn't require bloodied... but yeah, it's even funnier to compare those against each other then against Inspiring and Bolstering and wonder what's going on here.



As I said, I'm just reversing my position on Renewing Smite. But in general I still like healing powers a lot. Maybe this is because our group tends try and pump out every possible ounce of healing in difficult fights, just to stay alive.




keterys said:


> At any rate, so roughly that's just asking - is stunning so powerful that when it's introduced at level 13 it's better than all other options and regardless of the damage of both they should both be A+?



There will be more stunning powers after this level (there may even be one before this level). It's very powerful in solo fights, and if a character has the option to get it, they should. But if you rarely fight solos, it may not be the end all power. I think I might prefer to try and pick dailies that stun, and encounter powers that do other things at higher levels. I think A is right for these powers.


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## keterys (Jul 27, 2008)

Poor solos. The system really isn't built to be nice to them.


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## MwaO (Jul 27, 2008)

You might want to rate the fighter powers based on what happens if you're not using the weapon of choice. As an example, Chains of Sorrow still gives a nice penalty to all defenses even if you're not wielding a flail. It isn't an A, but it is better than some of the other choices.

Renewing Smite is at best a C- - 2[W] attached to 10+a little hit points at 13th? At 13th, that's probably only 10-15% of your ally's hit points.

I'd rate Ranger's Knockdown Shot a definite D+ if not worse - you can't fire it at a target larger than you...if the combat doesn't have a medium or small combatant, you essentially only have 3 encounter powers at 13th, not 4. Yuck.

Warlock's Coldfire Vortex seems to be more powerful than a simple + compared to Soul Flaying.

I think most of the Warlord's powers here need an upgrade. Warlord's Beat Them Into the Ground is a weapon attack against Fort and with the bonus to hit, most of the make prone attacks aren't going to miss. Compare Bolstering Blow to Renewing Smite - an extra [W] and no MAD? Denying Smite is much, much better than a C+. I'd call it a B+ - you're not actually marking the target, which makes it easy to set up with a mark and then you getting out of reach.


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## Pickles JG (Jul 27, 2008)

Mengu said:


> Fighter:
> I would also knock Silverstep to a C. It feels more like a utility power than an attack power.




I think B- is right - it's two [2w] attacks with decent pushes & even a free move. The weakness is the weapons you have to use it with - Glaive might prefer Storm of Blows for damage but its the best spear option.....

(Really I hope they make a superior Warspear one hand, 1d10 damage +2 prof & reach, though either d8 damage or no reach would probably make it worthwhile)

Replying to apearlma  - you are soo far behind the curve if you dont use the right fighter weapon I do not think that adds anything.


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## keterys (Jul 27, 2008)

Hmm, I missed that restriction on Knockdown shot. Thanks.

Soul Flaying does slightly more damage than Coldfire and goes against Will instead of Fortitude. And, y'know, weakens.

Renewing is going to get downgraded I suspect. That said, normal hp for a level 13 leader/striker is about 86. About 20 more for a defender and 15 less for a controller. So getting ~15 from a renewing smite isn't horrible if you have someone burning through surges.

Denying Smite is less generally effective than blind or stun - it's good for getting the person to attack someone else, obviously, but it doesn't hinder their ability to attack. So it can occasionally be used to save someone, but the 'optimal' use from a grading perspective is probably when it's combined with a fighter or paladin defender to just add on some extra damage and give a -2 attack penalty.


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## MwaO (Jul 27, 2008)

Pickles JG said:


> Replying to apearlma  - you are soo far behind the curve if you dont use the right fighter weapon I do not think that adds anything.




It definitely adds something. What's the best option for a Warhammer wielder at Fighter encounter level 3? Even though it isn't the right weapon, I'd have to say Rain of Blows.

Crushing Blow(rated a C currently) does 2[W]+Str+Con+bonuses once. Rain of Blows does 2[W]+Str*2+bonuses twice. Once you hit 11th and actually get Hammer Rhythm, you even get the possibility of missing twice with Rain of Blows as opposed to just once.

It might not be an A, but it is better than Crushing Blow by a decent amount.

Ditto for Chain of Sorrows. It isn't a great attack for someone who hasn't maxxed out Dex, but giving someone a -2 penalty until the end of your next turn isn't that bad of an option.


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## keterys (Jul 27, 2008)

True enough - anyone have suggestions for their ratings for people not using the appropriate weapon, feel free to toss them up. Otherwise I'll look back at them eventually (either when the mood strikes me or when all of the encounter powers are done)


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## MwaO (Jul 27, 2008)

keterys said:


> True enough - anyone have suggestions for their ratings for people not using the appropriate weapon, feel free to toss them up. Otherwise I'll look back at them eventually (either when the mood strikes me or when all of the encounter powers are done)




I think most of them aren't worth that much. Who really cares what a C+ turns into. But...

Encounter 3: Mainly affects users of Hammers as pretty much everyone else gets one of the following two.
Rain of Blows: B-. As I noted, you get your non-stat bonuses twice. That's better than Crushing Blow. I don't know if it makes it all the way up to B, though.
Sweeping Blow: B-. Seems slightly better than Dire Wolverine Strike(Ranger 1) as you have the choice of wielding a two-handed weapon or using a Shield. Still good for marking and general minion destruction. But it is an Encounter 3, not 1.

Encounter 13: affects a wider range of weapon types - axes, light/heavy blades, spears, picks.
Anvil of Doom: B to B-. Daze isn't bad.
Chains of Sorrow: B to B+. While a -2 penalty isn't a -7 to 8, it isn't bad either, especially at 13th where it is a lot more likely to be only -4. I think a lot of wielders of those weapons should probably consider this one first.


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## Gradine (Jul 27, 2008)

While I don't think Iron Vanguard is as good as Come And Get It or Griffon's Wrath, I disagree with your reasoning. I really don't think it's fair to grade a class's powers based on powers of other classes. Obviously a class like a Cleric is going to be much better than the Fighter at boosting AC, and is going to have access to that kind of thing a lot earlier. Iron Vanguard is, however, the first power a Fighter has access to that boosts his own AC, and it's something a sword & board fighter might be interested in.


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## keterys (Jul 27, 2008)

> Iron Vanguard is, however, the first power a Fighter has access to that boosts his own AC, and it's something a sword & board fighter might be interested in.




If the first power that a fighter got that boosted AC was 30th and gave +1 (+2 with a shield), I wouldn't consider it good...

I think Iron Bulwark would be a quite solid encounter 1, actually.


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## Korror (Jul 31, 2008)

I feel this thread shouldn't go into oblivion quite yet. There's still room for discussion on pretty much every power here and often such discussion expands our understanding and leads to new insights. So with that said, I'll give my long overdue analysis of the latest batch of encounter powers.

At this point we've gone beyond heroic tier play. We're just into paragon tier and this implies a few things for our heroes. First off, we're never going to be lacking for options. Between magic items and the other encounter powers, we have lot of tools in our bag of tricks. Secondly, the quality of our opponents has changed. Instead of goblins and orcs, we're starting to face real dragons, giants, drow, mindflayers and a lot more controller types than we've previously seen.

*CLERIC*
D+ / Arc of the Righteous

Not even as effective a 3W attack and the cleric would be hard pressed to get as much damage out of a 3W as a fighter or striker. Even a warpriest can't use his mark on this power as it's not an at-will. I find it very weak compared to Inspiring Strike Below

B- / Inspiring Strike

Suffers from MAD as it relies upon STR/CHR/WIS(healer's lore) to get its effect. It's better than it's counter part but the healing that it provides will be less than a surge value at this point.

A- / Mantle of Glory

I feel guilty giving this anything less than an A but I suspect at this level of combat that damage is going to be more concentrated than at the lower levels. Monsters are more likely to infect status effects on PCs and then focus their damage on one. Mantle of Glory heals all allies in the blast but I think this is going to be overkill most of the time. The damage won't do much to non-minions even though it attacks the will defense but it is also a very nice minion clearer in a pinch.

 A / Plague of Doom

A devoted cleric has little reason to boost strength so I don't feel this attack suffers from MAD. And it's quite nifty granting +3-4 to hit to all of your allies as well as to your next attack. A solid A power.

*FIGHTER*
The fighter certainly has a ton of powers at this level. His choice is probably going to depend on his weapon so I'm going to assume that the fighter gets the weapon bonus in every case.

A / Anvil of Doom

A stun power? Yes please!

A+ / Chains of Sorrow

A bonus to hit that triggers off an encounter power is even more useful than you might think. This gives the fighter a chance to set up his dailies as well as letting the other party members go to down with a +3-4 bonus.

C/ Giant's Wake B- with halberd

Extra bonus damage isn't that hot but the nifty thing is being able to make more attacks. The problem is that the targets have to be adjacent to your first target AND within melee reach. If you extend your reach then you can cover all enemies that are adjacent which makes the power a decent minion killer if nothing else.

B- / Silverstep

Silverstep lets you shift around quite a bit. I'm uncertain as to the value but it seems like a handy power that can used quite a bit.

C+ / Storm of Blows

I rated this power a lot lower until I noticed that you didn't have to hit with the attack in order to gain the next one. However it does require 3 targets that are bunched together and reachable by three seperate shifts. You do get to add your strength 3 times and mark 3 targets if you do have this kind of situation which makes it slightly better than 3W but the rarity of this being fully utilized holds it back.

C / Talon of the Roc

At the point, we hope for better effects in our encounter powers than things we get from opportunity attacks.

This quick review took longer than I thought. I'll get around to the other classes when I can.


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## Korror (Aug 5, 2008)

The new level 3 fighter encounter power is a A at least. The added hit bonus, the solid damage and the Combat advantage effect make it overshadow all but rain of blows.


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## Mengu (Aug 5, 2008)

Korror said:


> The new level 3 fighter encounter power is a A at least. The added hit bonus, the solid damage and the Combat advantage effect make it overshadow all but rain of blows.




Actually Hesitation Slash makes a fantastic Novice Power for a Brawny Rogue multiclassing into Fighter.

But as a Defender power, I don't think it's quite as good as Rain of Blows or Sweeping Blow. It's about on par with Armor Piercing Thrust, maybe slightly better, depending on what weapon you are using, how high your dex bonus is, and how your opponent's AC and Reflex compare.


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## Branduil (Aug 5, 2008)

Korror said:


> The new level 3 fighter encounter power is a A at least. The added hit bonus, the solid damage and the Combat advantage effect make it overshadow all but rain of blows.




What new power?


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## keterys (Aug 5, 2008)

It's in the Feywild Eladrin article from Dragon. There are a lot of light blade / spear powers.


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## keterys (Aug 12, 2008)

Latest errata should spark a couple changes - Dance of Steel and Shadow Wasp Strike can get actual ratings.

For ref, I've had lvl 17 graded for, uhh, two weeks... I just literally haven't had a whole hour I could type the explanations in while making sure things were sane. I may have time while I'm on my way to Gen Con depending on whether I just sleep on the flights, get together with how many groups of people Wednesday, or whatever.

I'd really like to get back to this, though.


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## keterys (Oct 8, 2008)

*Encounter 17 Analysis*

*CLERIC*
B- / Blinding Light
A- / Enthrall
C / Sentinel Strike
B / Thunderous Word

*Blinding Light *Weapon attack vs Fort and blind is still a great condition.
*Enthrall *is a very large area of enemies only that immobilizes and prevents attacks against the caster. Damage is quite respectable and it's against Will.
*Sentinel Strike *decent damage, but its special is unlikely to be terribly useful.
*Thunderous Word *Good area of enemy only with a large push and your allies can shift 1. Interesting to compare to the level 13 Wizard Thunderlance.

*FIGHTER*
C- / Exacting Strike
B+ / Exorcism of Steel
C / Harrying Assault
C / Mountain Breaking Blow
B / Vorpal Tornado
B- / Warrior's Challenge

*Exacting Strike *Fairly reliable damage, but not that much and no riders make it fail to compare well to many powers at this tier.
*Exorcism of Steel *Unfortunately a very hit or miss power. In some circumstances, it's just a low damage attack vs Ref so just scraping by, but in certain fights it's completely decisive. Against some solos, it's practically a fight ender. 
*Harrying Assault *Two attacks are always better than one, though the move is unlikely to be more than a couple squares and it provokes. It's a bit sad to compare this to the level 3 Ranger Cut and Run, which is very similar but two weapons, more versatile and a shift.
*Mountain Breaking Blow *Solid damage and push, plus shift after. 
*Vorpal Tornado *Very similar to Cheetah's Rake (Ranger 17) - low damage close burst, but knocking prone is helpful especially combined with the push that can force an enemy to either lose its turn or crawl a square to attack.
*Warrior's Challenge *I'm probably overrating the usefulness of marking all enemies within 2 squares of the target, but it's on top of an acceptable effect (a bit worse than Mountain Breaking Blow) so it seems a decent option.

*PALADIN*
C / Enervating Smite
C / Fortifying Smite
A / Hand of the Gods
B- / Terrifying Smite

*Enervating Smite *weapon attack vs Will, but damage is fairly low and weaken 1 round is only okay.
*Fortifying Smite *Decent damage, nice bonus but unfortunately MAD.
*Hand of the Gods *Small enemies only burst. Damage is solid and radiant and it marks all enemies. Added kicker is that all allies in the area gain +Wis to attacks. Oh, and do note that it's been errata-ed to standard action.
*Terrifying Smite *Slightly worse rating if the paladin can't manage to have good Charisma and Strength, but that's potentially a big push and the special power can often effectively immobilize.

*RANGER*
A- / Arrow of Vengeance
B / Cheetah's Rake
B+ / Triple Shot
C / Two-Weapon Eviscerate

*Arrow of Vengeance *Basically guaranteed to come up in any fight, this lets you frontload damage faster by using an immediate for extra damage. The attack is also almost guaranteed to hit given you can add Wis to the attack roll. This plus Twin Strike should result in higher damage than Triple Shot, but they are close enough that I'm slightly bothered with the grading.
*Cheetah's Rake *Small enemy only burst for low damage, but immobilize and knock prone sets up other attacks and, assuming the Ranger moves at least one away, really makes many creatures lose their turn.
*Triple Shot *Versatile firing options, can really pile the damage onto target. Very good power.
*Two-Weapon Eviscerate *Barely better than the level 1 Two Fanged Strike (less versatile and for demigods at higher level possibly worse than TFS). Still better damage potential than many options from other classes due to the power of multiple attacks.

*ROGUE*
C+ / Dragon Tail Strike
B / Hounding Strike
C+ / Stab and Grab

*Dragon Tail Strike *vs Fort. Basically a heavily upgraded Riposte Strike that can be done at ranged. Given you can make the interrupt attack ranged and at a significant bonus to hit, it's also good for area attack prevention.
*Hounding Strike *vs Will, solid damage, gives combat advantage for a followup sneak attack, and a massive defense bonus for artful dodgers.
*Stab and Grab *vs Reflex, decent damage. Not sure how often a grab is useful here, but it has some interesting synergy with garrote at least.

*WARLOCK*
A / Strand of Fate
C+ / Thirsting Tendrils
C- / Warlock's Bargain

*Strand of Fate *Sets up immense damage powerplays. 
*Thirsting Tendrils *Attacks which heal are always welcome, and a double Int kickback might be sizable though Star Pact is potentially a little MAD.
*Warlock's Bargain *Very good damage, especially if you lead in with a hellish rebuke first, but the range is quite short and the damage taken is sizable.

*WARLORD*
B+ / Battle On
A- / Hail of Steel
A- / Thunderous Fury
B- / Warlord's Rush

*Battle On *Potentially a lot of saves given and with Cha added, they're almost guaranteed. Very nice at this level since effects increasingly bear saves.
*Hail of Steel* Potentially severe amount of damage.
*Thunderous Fury *Good damage, and daze + Int to hit for all allies is a serious powerplay.
*Warlord's Rush *A ton of allowed movement. Very nice, even if poor compared to all of the other Warlord options at this level.

*WIZARD*
B- / Combust
A / Crushing Titan's Fist
B+ / Force Folley
A / Ice Tomb

*Combust *Solid damage, good range, okay area.
*Crushing Titan's Fist *Solid damage, good range, okay area... and a ton of control. Serious lockdown on its area. The target at the center of the area has to move _10_ just to get through 2 squares to exit so that's effectively a stun even if used single target on many melee monsters. On a miss.
*Force Volley *Low damage, but very versatile targetting or a nice bonus to attack if you need to hit one target, and daze is a good effect.
*Ice Tomb *Stuns, good damage, good range - its line of effect disadvantage keep it out of A+ territory.


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## Marshall (Oct 8, 2008)

A number of times you list a power as "the same as x lower level power" or "worse than x lower level power of y class" and then grade that power as a C or better. 
Isnt being worse than a lower level power the definition of a D/F power? Especially if its in the same class?


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## keterys (Oct 8, 2008)

Not if the power it's based on was exceedingly good. The power curve is not that huge. I also am trying to not, say, have all fighter powers be D or F 

For example, Two-Weapon Eviscerate (C) and Two Fanged Strike (A-) are surprisingly comparable, but it's (TFS or TWE) still better than your 'generic 3W' that the fighter ones seem balanced around.

Which may indicate I should bump those powers even further down, true.


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## Victim (Oct 8, 2008)

Sentinel has good damage and it's pretty easy to make the special worthwhile.  Assumption: enemies subject to Divine Challenge or Combat Challenge will usually attack the person challenging them.  So let the fighter or pally tag someone, then hit that enemy with Sentinel.  If they attack the fighter, it does 0 damage (but still might impose some bad status).  If they don't attack the defender, then the penalty attack or damage (or both) kicks in.

You forgot Vorpal Tornado and Warrior's Challenge as level 17 fighter attacks.

Ice Tomb, as single target attack that prevents allies from attacking, seems like one of the weaker wizard 17s.  It seems worse than the rogue 13 stun power.  And compared to the other wizard powers?  Crushing Titan's Fist immobilizes a group of enemies on a hit, or pratically does the same thing on a miss by making it cost at least 5 to move a square.  And Force Volley provides some selectivity, is good against a single guy and dazes.


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## keterys (Oct 9, 2008)

Victim said:


> Sentinel has good damage and it's pretty easy to make the special worthwhile.  Assumption: enemies subject to Divine Challenge or Combat Challenge will usually attack the person challenging them.  So let the fighter or pally tag someone, then hit that enemy with Sentinel.  If they attack the fighter, it does 0 damage (but still might impose some bad status).  If they don't attack the defender, then the penalty attack or damage (or both) kicks in.




So I put it on par with Harrying Assault (deals ~50% more damage) and Mountain Breaking Blow (push 3 and follow, potentially forcing into harmful terrain and otherwise hindering/protecting). 



> You forgot Vorpal Tornado and Warrior's Challenge as level 17 fighter attacks.




Huh, they're on the spreadsheet, but so I did. Shame, since those are the good fighter powers for that level!



> Ice Tomb, as single target attack that prevents allies from attacking, seems like one of the weaker wizard 17s.  It seems worse than the rogue 13 stun power.




Range 20 instead of melee and about four times the damage. But, yes, that's why it's not an A+. The attack limitation is not a severe one in a lot of fights - worst case you just lose one turn's worth of action from the wizard and everyone else readies. 

Encounter stun powers are pretty much the upper bar of all encounter powers. There's a sizable forum population who actually don't think any of them are balanced citing battles against folks like the Tarrasque and Orcus in which said solos never act at all, but eh. 



> Crushing Titan's Fist immobilizes a group of enemies on a hit, or pratically does the same thing on a miss by making it cost at least 5 to move a square.




It's much less of a problem (on miss) unless you're in the center, since you can just step out of the edge with no problems. I do think I'll upgrade it, however, cause I didn't factor in using it to completely screw with someone in the center square who has to move 10 just to leave the area, even on a miss.



> And Force Volley provides some selectivity, is good against a single guy and dazes.




I like both of these powers a ton and personally I don't favor stun powers and have a big place in my heart for more versatile powers (like Force Volley) - I'm not sure anyone would have blinked if Force Volley were slightly better and it seems a natural extension of of the path started with Icy Rays.


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## ilmoin (Oct 13, 2008)

Ice Tomb isn't quite that bad if you work to take advantage of it.  Because of the way conditions with "end of turn" work, all the Wizard has to do is delay and then immediately use his turn.  Because detrimental effects only last to the end of your original turn, the ice will thaw off and you can blast away.


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## Evilhalfling (Dec 10, 2008)

Necroing for adding Martial Power Options.


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