# Marvel's "Iron Fist" (Now With Spoilers)



## Ryujin (Mar 21, 2017)

It has been a long time since I first read the Iron Fist comic book. Like 1970s long. Opinions are pretty varied on this Marvel outing with a lot of critics panning it. Film maker friends are saying that the dialogue is anything from amateurish, to just plain bad.

I quite enjoyed it and have a different take. The main character's dialogue is 'childish' for a reason. I won't go any further into that but when you watch it, consider the reason.

*EDIT* I will admit to nostalgic bias in this matter.


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## Morrus (Mar 21, 2017)

I've seen the first 4 episodes. It's OK - good enough that I'll keep watching. I thought Daredevil s1 and the first half of s2, and Jessica Jones, were better. It's on a par with Luke Cage so far (which was pretty good until they killed off the most interesting actor in the show!)


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## carrot (Mar 21, 2017)

I've not quite watched them all yet, but despite all its flaws (and there are more than a few) I've been enjoying the series. 

I think the most annoying thing is that Finn Jones is completely miscast - he's not great as an actor, and I don't think he really looks the part of someone who has spend 15 years becoming the ultimate kung-fu warrior...


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## Kramodlog (Mar 21, 2017)

I think I'll sit this one out. Unless I'm really bored at some point and I'm too tired to read. I'll give The Defenders and I'll give a JJ a try when they come out. 

DD and JJ s1 were both amazing, but DD took a dive in s2 and Luke Cage was just boring.

The main problem in DD s2 and Luke Cage are the villains and the plot. They have none. I hope The Defenders will make the the plot move foreward. They really need to learn a thing or two from Buffy the Vampire Slayer and how that show handled villains and plots in one season.


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## Hussar (Mar 22, 2017)

It's okay enough that I watched it, but, definitely my least favorite of the Netflix Marvel outings.  It was very boring in a lot of places.  I mean, the whole Meachem subplot is basically a throw away.  Who cares?  It doesn't really matter and could be entirely cut without affecting the story.  Far, far too much boardroom drama for a comic book story.


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## Kramodlog (Mar 22, 2017)

Someone watched Iron Fist so you don't need to. http://io9.gizmodo.com/heres-the-important-stuff-that-happens-in-iron-fist-so-1793445273


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## Ryujin (Mar 22, 2017)

I would certainly agree with those who say that "Iron Fist" is the weakest of the Marvel Netflix offerings. I don't think that it's necessarily bad though. You can get into questions of "whitewashing" and "cultural appropriation" but, ultimately, he's a character of the time in which he was created.


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## Tonguez (Mar 22, 2017)

My rankings

DD1
JJ
DD2
Luke Cage (Cottonmouth)
Iron Fist
Luke Cage (Diamondback)

(yeah I cheated on Luke Cage because the first half was good but Diamondback was drek)

Iron Fist wasn't horrible, it was just a bit mediocre and lacked from too many themes and no real commitment on any of them. Iron Fist lacked a good origin story and the kung fu mysticism was as under developed as the fight choreography. The wall street drama was okay, although the first few episodes were too dragged out.You can start at episode 4 and not miss any important story elements. Kun Lun deserved more on screen time.

Colleen was best character, I liked Wards arc too.The others were meh


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## Kramodlog (Mar 22, 2017)

Ryujin said:


> You can get into questions of "whitewashing" and "cultural appropriation" but, ultimately, he's a character of the time in which he was created.



He was a character of the 70s, but the series was made very recently and Disney isn't alway afraid to move away from the comics with their live adaptations.


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## Ryujin (Mar 22, 2017)

Kramodlog said:


> He was a character of the 70s, but the series was made very recently and Disney isn't alway afraid to move away from the comics with their live adaptations.




To that I would say there's a question of just how far from the original you're going. If you're keeping the essence of the character then go nuts. If you're fundamentally altering things and just going for the name recognition drop the name, and make something original. If the original has so many bad connotations in today's society that you can't even come close to presenting it as the original, let it be forgotten.


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## ccs (Mar 22, 2017)

Kramodlog said:


> He was a character of the 70s, but the series was made very recently and Disney isn't alway afraid to move away from the comics with their live adaptations.




But you'll notice that it's not the main characters that they alter.  Just some of the supporting ones.
Hiemdal (skin color), Bucky (age), Hawkeye (costume & personal life details), Zero (backstory, lack of costume), Baron Mordo (skin color), The Ancient One (gender).  

With Iron Fist himself?  No matter wich way they went they were going to recieve flak.
Keep him as the white guy from the comics?  Listen to crap from the factions that think he should be changed to Asian because it's 2017 & not 1974.
Change him to Asian?  Recieve crap from fans of the comics.  Besides, I'm sure they noticed how well received Fox's skin swap of Johnny Stom was....

As for the show being mediocre?  True.  But even that's fairly accurate to the comics.


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## Ryujin (Mar 22, 2017)

ccs said:


> But you'll notice that it's not the main characters that they alter.  Just some of the supporting ones.
> Hiemdal (skin color), Bucky (age), Hawkeye (costume & personal life details), Zero (backstory, lack of costume), Baron Mordo (skin color), The Ancient One (gender).
> 
> With Iron Fist himself?  No matter wich way they went they were going to recieve flak.
> ...




To be fair, there was a lot more going on with FanFourstick than that.


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## Kramodlog (Mar 22, 2017)

ccs said:


> With Iron Fist himself? No matter wich way they went they were going to recieve flak.



I have no problem with Disney receiving flak for doing the right thing.


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## Kramodlog (Mar 22, 2017)

Ryujin said:


> To that I would say there's a question of just how far from the original you're going.



How far from the original material are the MCU movies? Are far from the originals are the comics today? Old Captain America is now an agent of Hydra. New Captain America now is black. Thor is now a woman. Iron Man is now a black young woman. 

Iron Fist is about a kung fu powered superhero. That is his essence. He just doesn't need to be a white guy to be one, cause we ain't in the 70s anymore. 

Of course, making him an Asian dude or woman wouldn't necessarely make it more watchable. It would just reflect our societies better.


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## Ryujin (Mar 22, 2017)

I'm going to step back from that direction of conversation, as it's too political to continue.


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## cmad1977 (Mar 22, 2017)

*Marvel's &quot;Iron Fist&quot; (No Spoilers)*

I don't care who 'iron fist' is. White guy. Brown girl. Orange beaver. Whatever. 
Just make an interesting story instead of... well... whatever it is now. 

Though now that I think of it.. the Kung Fu Beaver would pique my interest. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ryujin (Mar 22, 2017)

cmad1977 said:


> I don't care who 'iron fist' is. White guy. Brown girl. Orange beaver. Whatever.
> Just make an interesting story instead of... well... whatever it is now.
> 
> Though now that I think of it.. the Kung Fu Beaver would pique my interest.
> ...





Android game writers thought so too:

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=air.nl.borkoek.harrybeaverfistoffury&hl=en


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## cmad1977 (Mar 22, 2017)

Ryujin said:


> Android game writers thought so too:
> 
> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=air.nl.borkoek.harrybeaverfistoffury&hl=en




Great. Now I need to buy an Android. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Hussar (Mar 23, 2017)

Just finished up watching the series last night.  Yeah, very, very unimpressed.  Granted, I was never an Iron Fist reader, so, I don't have any connection to the comic book.  But, this was just awful.  It was paced like a 24 episode season, but, with only 13 episodes.  I mean, all that boardroom drama stuff?  Who cares?  And, at the end of the day, they spend all that time futzing about with all the boardroom drama crap and none of it actually means anything - Ward is still in control of the company.  

That was a show where they truly, truly needed a better story.


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## ccs (Mar 23, 2017)

Kramodlog said:


> I have no problem with Disney receiving flak for doing the right thing.




They did, & they did.


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## Kramodlog (Mar 23, 2017)

ccs said:


> They did, & they did.



Non-Asian Iron Fist was the right thing?


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## ccs (Mar 23, 2017)

Kramodlog said:


> How far from the original material are the MCU movies? Are far from the originals are the comics today? Old Captain America is now an agent of Hydra. New Captain America now is black. Thor is now a woman. Iron Man is now a black young woman.
> 
> Iron Fist is about a kung fu powered superhero. That is his essence. He just doesn't need to be a white guy to be one, cause we ain't in the 70s anymore.
> 
> Of course, making him an Asian dude or woman wouldn't necessarely make it more watchable. It would just reflect our societies better.




Sure.  "Iron Fist" could be anyone as it's a title & set of powers that gets passed along every so often.  And I'm not opposed to that.  But they chose to tell a story about one specific IF wielder - the white guy named Danny Rand.  So be it.


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## ccs (Mar 23, 2017)

Kramodlog said:


> Non-Asian Iron Fist was the right thing?




Non-Asian Danny Rand Iron Fist, yes.


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## Kramodlog (Mar 23, 2017)

ccs said:


> Non-Asian Danny Rand Iron Fist, yes.



Not casting Asians in TV roles is a good thing now. Hum.


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## Kramodlog (Mar 23, 2017)

ccs said:


> Sure.  "Iron Fist" could be anyone as it's a title



So, since it isn't the 70s and people aren't offended by Asian leads Iron Fist could totally have been a Asian?


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## Quickleaf (Mar 25, 2017)

I agree with criticism of Iron Fist. Poor casting with the lead, mediocre dialogue, messy writing, mostly mediocre fight choreography (waaay too many confined area fights with poor camera-work), no compelling villain, and uninspired interpretation of the Iron Fist comics. Daredevil was mostly ★★★★★, with some weakening in the second season. Jessica Jones was ★★★★. Luke Cage was ★★★★★ in the first half before Diamondback, and ★★★ after Diamondback. Iron Fist was squarely mediocre throughout, ★★★ at best.

Jessica Henwick (as Colleen Wing) is far more interesting as a character and believable as a martial artist than the lead. Tom Pelphrey (as Ward Meachum) gives a nuanced and amazing performance, despite a rather garbled script. Both those actors impressed me.

Overall, I feel like there were a lot of missed opportunities, right down to a basic conceptual level: _What is the Iron Fist about? How are we bringing a hero born of 70's orientalism into the modern era? How does Iron Fist fit into Marvel's ongoing series of TV stories and their themes?_

What we get is...

[SECTION]Iron Fist is about Danny Rand, a child survivor turned martial artist master, yet who can't manage to control his rage or emotions, wanting his father's company back and promptly screwing the company's profits to do the right thing while not showing up to board meetings and fighting a secret organization of ninjas brainwashing young disenfranchised people. 

The show doesn't pander to orientalism because the bad guy is white...don't pay any attention to the asian girlfriend inexplicably liking him or him intruding to tell her students how to conducts themselves in her dojo...and because the visit to China has no distinguishing Chinese landmarks, just a bleak port warehouse area that could have been filmed anywhere. 

It connects to Marvel-verse with Rosario Dawson (as Claire Temple) taking self-defense classes, even though the stark world of corporate politics feels thoroughly disconnected from the last 3 series, but, hey, Iron Fist gets to go on the run from the authorities just like Daredevil and Luke Cage. Even the look of the show is antiseptic and stark compared to the thematic looks of the other 3 shows.[/SECTION]

Instead, it could have been so much more, maybe something like...

[SECTION]Iron Fist is about "how to live like a sorcerer in Mexico City" (to quote Carlos Castaneda), how Danny Rand takes sublime spiritual experience and tries to translate that into the modern world, challenging the notion that monastics have a better handle on spiritual matters, showing just how crazy-making attempting to bridge those worlds can be.

The show plays with some classic martial arts movie tropes (e.g. the challenge, the back alley fight, the arrogant kung-fu guy, the old man, the worth opponent, etc), using a dark tongue-in-cheek humor that lightly acknowledges the orientalism but subverts it. Danny and Colleen's relationship looks at the tension between external & internal style martial arts, and also it closely looks at what draws them together – both being dedicated to a spiritual journey which has left them questioning sanity.

While Daredevil focuses on vigilantism, Catholicism, and social responsibility; Jessica Jones focuses on processing trauma, survivor's guilt, and addiction; Luke Cage focuses on Black roots, living in the right, and prison injustice; Iron Fist focuses on mental illness & spiritual experience, class issues, and the modern need for spiritual consciousness. Daredevil's look is blood red, Jessica Jones is ethereal purple, Luke Cage is black and gold grunge. What about Iron Fist? It's darkness and light, with subtle touches of green on skyscraper windows, prayer flags, plane emblems, etc.[/SECTION]


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## Ryujin (Mar 27, 2017)

Well I guess that I'd better remove the "no spoilers" now


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## Quickleaf (Mar 27, 2017)

Ryujin said:


> Well I guess that I'd better remove the "no spoilers" now




I thought I was keeping it to broad strokes that were well known about the show or didn't give anything away.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Mar 27, 2017)

Hussar said:


> Just finished up watching the series last night.  Yeah, very, very unimpressed.  Granted, I was never an Iron Fist reader, so, I don't have any connection to the comic book.  But, this was just awful.  It was paced like a 24 episode season, but, with only 13 episodes.  I mean, all that boardroom drama stuff?  Who cares?  And, at the end of the day, they spend all that time futzing about with all the boardroom drama crap and none of it actually means anything - Ward is still in control of the company.
> 
> That was a show where they truly, truly needed a better story.



The boardroom drama however had the most compelling characters and character development.


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## ccs (Mar 27, 2017)

Kramodlog said:


> Not casting Asians in TV roles is a good thing now. Hum.




Reading comprehension isn't your strong suite apparently.  
I don't give a damn how many whites/blacks/Asians/Hispanics/etc get cast.
I DO care about changing an existing character who is of one race/sex to another.  If that means actors of some group don't get cast as certain characters?  I'm OK with that. 
It's simple: If casting Danny Rand version of IF?  Hire a white guy.  If casting some other non-Danny Rand version of IF?  Then hire somebody of the appropriate ethnic group.  Repeat process for other characters.


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## ccs (Mar 27, 2017)

Kramodlog said:


> So, since it isn't the 70s and people aren't offended by Asian leads Iron Fist could totally have been a Asian?




Iron Fist, yes.
Danny Rand version of Iron Fist, no.

Refer to answer in post #30.


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## Kramodlog (Mar 27, 2017)

ccs said:


> I don't give a damn how many whites/blacks/Asians/Hispanics/etc get cast.



I know and that is the problem.


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## Kramodlog (Mar 27, 2017)

ccs said:


> Danny Rand version of Iron Fist, no.



Why can't an Asian be named Danny Rand?


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## Quickleaf (Mar 27, 2017)

I actually thought one of the good things about the show was its cultural sensitivity. And that's been true for all the Marvel TV shows mostly. It portrayed martial arts as an international thing; for example, Jessica Henwick (of Singaporean Chinese & white Zambian-English descend) played a Chinese character practicing Japanese martial arts. Her sensei (Bakuto, a Japanese if ever I heard one) is played by Ramon Rodriguez (of Puerto Rican descent). And the martial arts styles appearing in the show are all across the map. The message, as I understood it was: *It don't matter your race, hometown, or creed. Everybody is kung-fu fighting!*

Jessica Henwick is well-written and well-cast as Colleen Wing; I found her to be a show stealer in many of her scenes; when she talks about what Bushido means to her, you can really feel the passion and discipline. Sure, there were things I didn't care for – there's a cliche Asian femme fatale at one point (and not done humorously in a tongue-in-cheek way) & I didn't find the attraction between Colleen and Danny explained well enough (he comes across as preachy and undisciplined) – but overall I would feel comfortable watching the show with my Asian friends. We might laugh at a moment or two, but nothing offensive. YMMV.

Well, except my Asian friends who are sophisticated critics of TV/film. In which case I'm pretty sure they'd also have some choice words for the show's other weaknesses.

I do think there was a missed opportunity in exploring the monks of Kun-Lun, casting more Asians there, what that culture was like and how it influenced Danny. While I like the general approach of "I'm already a hero, and I reference my backstory casually" in the other Marvel shows, I think Iron Fist would have benefitted greatly from doing a more involved origin story for Danny, whether revealed in interesting flashbacks (the brief ones in the show felt hollow) or through a "starting as a kid and becoming a hero" montage.

As far as Finn Jones, he's a decent enough actor. The miscasting for Iron Fist/Danny Rand was not a race issue IMO. It was just a mismatch of that particular actor's talents with what the role needed (compounded by very little time for training).


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## Tonguez (Mar 28, 2017)

Quickleaf said:


> I actually thought one of the good things about the show was its cultural sensitivity. And that's been true for all the Marvel TV shows mostly. It portrayed martial arts as an international thing; for example, Jessica Henwick (of Singaporean Chinese & white Zambian-English descend) played a Chinese character practicing Japanese martial arts. Her sensei (Bakuto, a Japanese if ever I heard one) is played by Ramon Rodriguez (of Puerto Rican descent). And the martial arts styles appearing in the show are all across the map. The message, as I understood it was: *It don't matter your race, hometown, or creed. Everybody is kung-fu fighting!*




hmm thats an interesting perspective and while the concept of a universal "Everybody is kung-fu fighting!" vibe might work, it does have the stink of 'white privilege' about it. Indeed when both Bakuta and Davos presented as 'not east asian' I for one raised my eyebrow and thought 'oh so they're really going all out to give the finger to critics by showing 'diversity'. Now I don't mind Danny being European and comics Bakuto was South American too but Davos is the son of lei kung the thunderer who afaik is not Indian



> I do think there was a missed opportunity in exploring the monks of Kun-Lun, casting more Asians there, what that culture was like and how it influenced Danny. While I like the general approach of "I'm already a hero, and I reference my backstory casually" in the other Marvel shows, I think Iron Fist would have benefitted greatly from doing a more involved origin story for Danny, whether revealed in interesting flashbacks (the brief ones in the show felt hollow) or through a "starting as a kid and becoming a hero" montage.
> 
> As far as Finn Jones, he's a decent enough actor. The miscasting for Iron Fist/Danny Rand was not a race issue IMO. It was just a mismatch of that particular actor's talents with what the role needed (compounded by very little time for training).




Agreed about Jessica Henwick, she was the best thing in the show and probably could have carried it without Jones being involved at all (which does suggest those race critics might have a point). Finn Jones was just a terrible casting choice, they really should have got an actor with a martial arts background and who could actually carry off the concept of a trained fighter trying to 'find himself' (unfortunately the only modern martial arts actor I can think of is Jon Foo, who might be too old for the role)

Other Points:
Absolutely agreed about the missed oppurtunity to explore Kun Lun - that should have been the heart of the movie, not Wall Street lawyers
I think the Femme Fatale was supposed to be a Bride of Nine Spiders homage (?)


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## billd91 (Mar 28, 2017)

Kramodlog said:


> Not casting Asians in TV roles is a good thing now. Hum.




No, that's not it from my perspective. The cry for Iron Fist to be Asian was a bad idea from the outset since while it would add a leading Asian actor (something Marvel has been doing in Agents of SHIELD) to a media when there aren't enough, it would have confined him to the too-frequent stereotype of "martial artist Asian". I hardly see that as a forward step. I think it would be a better investment in time to advocate for non-stereotypical parts rather than complain about lack of stereotypical ones.


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## billd91 (Mar 28, 2017)

Tonguez said:


> Other Points:
> Absolutely agreed about the missed oppurtunity to explore Kun Lun - that should have been the heart of the movie, not Wall Street lawyers




Totally disagree. Returning to New York and having to deal with the Meachums is too core to the character of Iron Fist to avoid. It's one of the elements that keeps this story different from most other martial arts stories - or other superhero stories for that matter.


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## Quickleaf (Mar 28, 2017)

Tonguez said:


> hmm thats an interesting perspective and while the concept of a universal "Everybody is kung-fu fighting!" vibe might work, it does have the stink of 'white privilege' about it.




What about the series struck you as glorifying white privilege? 

I actually found the homeless character who meets Danny in the park – was that Big Al played by Craig Walker – to be fascinating and very sympathetically portrayed. His conversations with Danny were illuminating about Danny's character and about how different Danny (supposedly) was compared to where he'd come from. Sadly, the show didn't live up to the expectations set up by their talks in the park.



> Indeed when both Bakuta and Davos presented as 'not east asian' I for one raised my eyebrow and thought 'oh so they're really going all out to give the finger to critics by showing 'diversity'. Now I don't mind Danny being European and comics Bakuto was South American too but Davos is the son of lei kung the thunderer who afaik is not Indian




Yeah...I didn't get Sacha Dhawan's casting as Davos either. Was he supposed to be an adopted son? Kinda like Danny? I think he was supposed to be a biological son, explaining his jealousy. That's a case of weird casting that should have been East Asian, I agree. And, personally, I didn't care for his performance as Davos – there was a lot of merit to the nuance he brought, but he had a very "muted" stage presence.



> Agreed about Jessica Henwick, she was the best thing in the show and probably could have carried it without Jones being involved at all (which does suggest those race critics might have a point). Finn Jones was just a terrible casting choice, they really should have got an actor with a martial arts background and who could actually carry off the concept of a trained fighter trying to 'find himself' (unfortunately the only modern martial arts actor I can think of is Jon Foo, who might be too old for the role)




Jon Foo would have been good. Iko Uwais, the Indonesian actor from The Raid, could have worked too. Or Biao Yuen.

And if they were making a conscious choice to follow the comics closely, keeping Danny Rand a white guy, they could have gone for a Scott Adkins type. Hmm. Yeah, not many white guy actors I know of into Tai Chi or Wushu – they tend to be more hard style types. Oh, Ashton Kutcher is a jiujitsu guy. 

Hmm, I see your point. Not many well-known white guy actors into Chinese martial arts. But I guess that's the sort of challenge you have a thorough casting process in order to surmount, yeah?



> Other Points:
> Absolutely agreed about the missed oppurtunity to explore Kun Lun - that should have been the heart of the movie, not Wall Street lawyers
> I think the Femme Fatale was supposed to be a Bride of Nine Spiders homage (?)




Yeah, following the formulae of "already into hero's story with casual background reveal" hurt the show.

Ah, _that's_ where she was from. I totally missed that reference! But then I only read one copy of Iron Fist when I was a kid.

I was really hoping there'd be more martial arts, more internal style mysticism, and deeper psychological characterization of the lead. Instead, I ended up more interested in Jessica Henwick's character and the Meachum family drama.


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## Hussar (Mar 28, 2017)

See, to me, the Meachum family drama was so pointless.  Who cares?  None of it has the slightest lasting impact.  It was just so pointless.  Someone walks in the room, they have a conversation, person walks out, describes most episodes.  I'm not watching a Marvel Super Hero show to see boardroom drama.  We HAVE boardroom dramas to watch if I want to watch that.  Hrmmm, kung-fu gu kicks ass in New York.  I got no problems with that. 

And the bit with the homeless guy was probably the best part of the whole show.  Shame that character doesn't last too long.  That was probably the most interesting interaction in the show.  The rest of it?  Yawn.  

Anyone else notice that the fight scene in the hallway with the hatchet dudes was MUCH better done in Season 2 of Daredevil?  

Yeah, I think Iron Fist was a dud.  I watched it, mostly because I'm a Marvel fan.  If it wasn't tied into the other shows, I probably would have dumped it after the third episode.  Poorly written, terrible pacing.


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## wicked cool (Mar 28, 2017)

why don't people like Dardevil season 2 that much? There was no main villain but I loved the hero vs hero angles and the action scenes I thought were the best of all the series so far.


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## Morrus (Mar 28, 2017)

wicked cool said:


> why don't people like Dardevil season 2 that much? There was no main villain but I loved the hero vs hero angles and the action scenes I thought were the best of all the series so far.




The first half with Punisher was excellent. All the faceless ninja horde stuff in the second half was tedious though.


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## billd91 (Mar 28, 2017)

Quickleaf said:


> Yeah...I didn't get Sacha Dhawan's casting as Davos either. Was he supposed to be an adopted son? Kinda like Danny? I think he was supposed to be a biological son, explaining his jealousy. That's a case of weird casting that should have been East Asian, I agree. And, personally, I didn't care for his performance as Davos – there was a lot of merit to the nuance he brought, but he had a very "muted" stage presence.




And here's where we get to part of the problem with the issue of a martial artist being cast as Asian = Chinese/Japanese/East Asian. There's a knee-jerk assumption that a martial artist should be stereotyped East Asian, even for fictional Himalayan extradimensional locations. Marvel's backstory may put K'un Lun on the Tibetan side, but there are multiple Himalayan cultures that could influence the residents of K'un Lun, including Indian which is Sacha Dhawan's ancestry.

I don't think people recognize enough that when they are protesting a martial arts character not being an east Asian one, they're applying a stereotypical mindset that can limit the opportunities Asian actors have as long as it is a dominant mindset.


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## Ryujin (Mar 28, 2017)

Morrus said:


> The first half with Punisher was excellent. All the faceless ninja horde stuff in the second half was tedious though.




It certainly had me looking forward to the upcoming "The Punisher" Netflix series. I found Jon Bernthal to be better in the part than either Dolph Lundgren or Thomas Jane, in the previous movie attempts, though Jane wasn't nearly as bad as Lundgren.


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## Tonguez (Mar 28, 2017)

billd91 said:


> And here's where we get to part of the problem with the issue of a martial artist being cast as Asian = Chinese/Japanese/East Asian. There's a knee-jerk assumption that a martial artist should be stereotyped East Asian, even for fictional Himalayan extradimensional locations. Marvel's backstory may put K'un Lun on the Tibetan side, but there are multiple Himalayan cultures that could influence the residents of K'un Lun, including Indian which is Sacha Dhawan's ancestry.
> 
> I don't think people recognize enough that when they are protesting a martial arts character not being an east Asian one, they're applying a stereotypical mindset that can limit the opportunities Asian actors have as long as it is a dominant mindset.




yeah maybe, except in this case Davos is in the comics the biological son of Lei-Kung the Thunderer who in the show is portrayed by Actor Hoon Lee (who relevantly is quite emphatic that he identifies himself as an American despite others viewing him as Asian (Korean ancestry))

Hoon Lee himself has said “_If you identify yourself with a particular group, it creates a structure and a sense of support, but does it also limit you? Is reverse discrimination a justifiable means to an end? I like examining those kinds of questions_.”


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## Quickleaf (Mar 29, 2017)

billd91 said:


> And here's where we get to part of the problem with the issue of a martial artist being cast as Asian = Chinese/Japanese/East Asian. There's a knee-jerk assumption that a martial artist should be stereotyped East Asian, even for fictional Himalayan extradimensional locations. Marvel's backstory may put K'un Lun on the Tibetan side, but there are multiple Himalayan cultures that could influence the residents of K'un Lun, including Indian which is Sacha Dhawan's ancestry.
> 
> I don't think people recognize enough that when they are protesting a martial arts character not being an east Asian one, they're applying a stereotypical mindset that can limit the opportunities Asian actors have as long as it is a dominant mindset.




I am fully cognizant of that issue. And it absolutely is an issue.

I think the mismatch for me was more in terms of how Sacha actually portrayed the character Davos (or how the character was written into the script).

Far far below that, a rather minor issue that made me pause, is that Davos is supposed to be the son of Lei-Kung the Thunderer. Which is the source of his envy of Dany Rand. Because of that particular setup, I'd assume Davos was meant to be the same ethnicity as Lei-Kung.

When I saw Sacha, however, I had some disconnect at first following that "ok, THIS is the son of Lei-Kung" due to Sacha's South Asian appearance. And maybe that's very minor degree of racism, I don't know. I do know that if I – a fairly culturally sensitive white dude – was having trouble swallowing that detail, I couldn't have been alone.


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## Mallus (Mar 29, 2017)

I have to admit, I'm really enjoying Iron Fist so far (eps 1-7). My intent was to hate-watch the first episode, but that didn't pan out. It's not good neo-noir like Daredevil, or art like Jessica Jones, and that's okay. For what it's worth, I'm burning through IF at a much faster pace then either DD or JJ. 

Colleen Wing is good, Joy & Ward Meachum are, somewhat surprisingly, better, and Danny's Earnest Clueless Zen Trust Fund style is strangely disarming. Plus, RZA directed an episode, and as everyone knows Wu-Tang ain't nuttin' to... ahem.  

As for The Unbearable Whiteness of Being Danny Rand... no one would suggest fixing a banker character by making them Jewish. At least I hope not. Same principle applies here.

You don't fix a lack of diversity by embracing old ethnic stereotypes. I say this as someone who was called "Kato", "Grasshopper", and "Bruce Lee" more than my share of times as a kid.


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## doctorbadwolf (Mar 29, 2017)

Ryujin said:


> I would certainly agree with those who say that "Iron Fist" is the weakest of the Marvel Netflix offerings. I don't think that it's necessarily bad though. You can get into questions of "whitewashing" and "cultural appropriation" but, ultimately, he's a character of the time in which he was created.



That really isn't an excuse. 

But mostly, I'm just disappointed that it didn't live up to the potential of the character. And that the actor at no point genuinely looks like he has spent years training in martial arts. Not in terms of basic physical appearance, or in terms of how he moves or holds himself. That was a bummer. The weak dialogue and somewhat boring plot, I could excuse, if they had gotten Danny right.


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## doctorbadwolf (Mar 29, 2017)

Morrus said:


> The first half with Punisher was excellent. All the faceless ninja horde stuff in the second half was tedious though.




I absolutely despised this punisher plot. He is even more of a caricature than normal, and the whole story is just...Miller levels of untra-violent fan wank. 

The courtroom drama was excellent, though, as was the development of the three ninja characters. IMO, it could lose Punisher completely and be a substantially better season.

EDIT: I also loved the stairway fight. It wasn't as "hard to watch" as some parts of s1 were, but did just as good a job of reminding the viewer that his only superpower is his blind "sight", and some good training, and that his perseverance is meant to be thoroughly human. I love watching this Daredevil fight exhausting battles and just grimace and keep going. It's like rocky with less cheesy music. 

I will admit that by the end of the Punisher story, I didn't want him to die and never be heard from again, so I'm optimistic that the show will be good.


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## Ryujin (Mar 29, 2017)

Mallus said:


> I have to admit, I'm really enjoying Iron Fist so far (eps 1-7). My intent was to hate-watch the first episode, but that didn't pan out. It's not good neo-noir like Daredevil, or art like Jessica Jones, and that's okay. For what it's worth, I'm burning through IF at a much faster pace then either DD or JJ.
> 
> Colleen Wing is good, Joy & Ward Meachum are, somewhat surprisingly, better, and Danny's Earnest Clueless Zen Trust Fund style is strangely disarming. Plus, RZA directed an episode, and as everyone knows Wu-Tang ain't nuttin' to... ahem.
> 
> ...




As far as Danny Rand's demeanour and dialogue I just had to remember that he had stopped his Western cultural development at pre-teen, and that got me over the expectation of hearing Shakespeare soliloquies out of him. That made it much more enjoyable as simple consumable entertainment.


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## Ryujin (Mar 29, 2017)

doctorbadwolf said:


> I absolutely despised this punisher plot. He is even more of a caricature than normal, and the whole story is just...Miller levels of untra-violent fan wank.
> 
> The courtroom drama was excellent, though, as was the development of the three ninja characters. IMO, it could lose Punisher completely and be a substantially better season.
> 
> ...




In Daredevil they did a very good job of showing Matt to be his father the boxer's son, layering in in over the martial arts training.


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## Morrus (Mar 29, 2017)

doctorbadwolf said:


> I absolutely despised this punisher plot. He is even more of a caricature than normal, and the whole story is just...Miller levels of untra-violent fan wank.
> 
> The courtroom drama was excellent, though, as was the development of the three ninja characters. IMO, it could lose Punisher completely and be a substantially better season.




It's funny how people can have so diametrically opposite opinions about something. Almost like art was subjective!


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## doctorbadwolf (Mar 29, 2017)

Ryujin said:


> In Daredevil they did a very good job of showing Matt to be his father the boxer's son, layering in in over the martial arts training.




Agreed. It's one of the many great things about the show. DD, JJ, and LC are all excellent for the same reason, first and formost, and that is the characterisations.


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## Mallus (Mar 29, 2017)

Ryujin said:


> As far as Danny Rand's demeanour and dialogue I just had to remember that he had stopped his Western cultural development at pre-teen, and that got me over the expectation of hearing Shakespeare soliloquies out of him.



I think what sold me on this version of Danny was him referring to terrifying uber-laywer Jerry Hogarth as "J-Money", because, really, he's still 10.



> That made it much more enjoyable as simple consumable entertainment.



It's definitely not ambitious like Jessica Jones, or Legion on FX (which is also a work of art).


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## Tonguez (Mar 29, 2017)

Ryujin said:


> As far as Danny Rand's demeanour and dialogue I just had to remember that he had stopped his Western cultural development at pre-teen, and that got me over the expectation of hearing Shakespeare soliloquies out of him. That made it much more enjoyable as simple consumable entertainment.




I was expecting a whole lot of mystical Zen Koans out of him though. I was very disappointed that they didn't have him have a 'blind Master Po' flashback in every episode


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## billd91 (Mar 29, 2017)

Tonguez said:


> I was expecting a whole lot of mystical Zen Koans out of him though. I was very disappointed that they didn't have him have a 'blind Master Po' flashback in every episode




See, I was *glad* they didn't do that. It's been done.


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## Hussar (Mar 30, 2017)

One thing that surprised me was that Netflix gave this an Adult rating.  (at least here in Japan, maybe it's different in different countries?)  I watched the first couple of episodes and realized that I could watch this with my daughters, unlike DD or JJ, which are a bit too ... mature and graphic.  Outside of a couple of scenes, this wasn't much more than PG no?

I guess, for me, IF suffers mostly by comparison.  DD and JJ had very deep stories and really delved deep into some very dark themes.  DD is often about the justification for vigilantism.  Plus, DD gets his ass handed to him numerous times.  You really get the feeling that he's a real person.  JJ was all about rape and victimization.  Just fantastic writing on a very difficult topic.  Luke Cage dealt with community and all sorts of pretty topical issues.

I honestly really have no idea what Iron Fist was about.  Umm, first world problems of a rich, white manboy?  I had thought they were going to go a bit deeper into the ideas of family violence and abuse, but, they only really kind of danced around it.  Even the substance abuse plot line was just kind of tacked on.  Ward has a substance abuse problem, goes to a hospital for a couple of days, and his problem is fixed.  :/  

I just found the whole thing a bit too facile after the depth of the other Netflix Marvel outings.


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## Derren (Mar 30, 2017)

Mallus said:


> because, really, he's still 10.




No, he isn't. His plane crashed when he was 10. Then he spend the next 16 years, the better part of his life, being gruesomely drilled in martial arts. He might have no clue about how the world works (but when you can get a fake passport in Morocco to get into the US you can't be that naive) but he is not 10. Time doesn't stop in Kun-Lun.

I found Danny to be very annoying. His naive phase was plausible (but as I said, fake passport in Morocco), but his angry child character did not match his supposed training at all. I find him to be the weakest character of the defenders (both in term of characterization and actual power). If it weren't for the Meachums the series would have been extremely boring.
While normally the villains are the weak points in marvel series they saved it here.


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## Mallus (Mar 30, 2017)

Derren said:


> No, he isn't. His plane crashed when he was 10. Then he spend the next 16 years, the better part of his life, being gruesomely drilled in martial arts. He might have no clue about how the world works (but when you can get a fake passport in Morocco to get into the US you can't be that naive) but he is not 10. Time doesn't stop in Kun-Lun.



You realize I didn't mean Danny was _literally, chronologically_ still 10 years old, right?  

I meant Danny was _in certain respects, psychologically & socially_ still 10 years old, as evidenced hy his use of the nickname "J-Money", though this appearance of immaturity is likely due, at least in part, to the massive dislocating effects of moving from world of Kun-Lun and the world of contemporary Manhattan.

edit: agree on the Meachums, tho. They're my favorite part of the series so far.


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## Derren (Mar 30, 2017)

Mallus said:


> You realize I didn't mean Danny was _literally, chronologically_ still 10 years old, right?




Yes, but also psychologically he is not, or should not, be 10 years old either.


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## Tonguez (Mar 30, 2017)

Mallus said:


> You realize I didn't mean Danny was _literally, chronologically_ still 10 years old, right?
> 
> I meant Danny was _in certain respects, psychologically & socially_ still 10 years old, as evidenced hy his use of the nickname "J-Money", though this appearance of immaturity is likely due, at least in part, to the massive dislocating effects of moving from world of Kun-Lun and the world of contemporary Manhattan.
> 
> edit: agree on the Meachums, tho. They're my favorite part of the series so far.




yeah that J-Money thing made no sense to me. If he was raised in an austere monastary why would he using stupid nicknames for a lawyer he's just met? and why would his social skills remain that of a 10 year old when he's spent the past 15 years socialising with people in KunLun- does he have some kind of disassociative disorder? 

Danny's personality wasn't well thought out in this show, the calm, focussed portrayal in the Spiderman cartoon made sense to me but this petulant, self-serving Netflix version just seems a bit too all over the place and that is annoying. I'm not really seeing how he fits with the other 3 Defenders or why any of them would want to work with him (well except that he has money)


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## Ryujin (Mar 30, 2017)

Tonguez said:


> yeah that J-Money thing made no sense to me. If he was raised in an austere monastary why would he using stupid nicknames for a lawyer he's just met? and why would his social skills remain that of a 10 year old when he's spent the past 15 years socialising with people in KunLun- does he have some kind of disassociative disorder?
> 
> Danny's personality wasn't well thought out in this show, the calm, focussed portrayal in the Spiderman cartoon made sense to me but this petulant, self-serving Netflix version just seems a bit too all over the place and that is annoying. I'm not really seeing how he fits with the other 3 Defenders or why any of them would want to work with him (well except that he has money)




He hadn't just met J-Money. She was an intern of the company when he was a kid, while she was in law school. They had history.


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## doctorbadwolf (Mar 31, 2017)

Tonguez said:


> yeah that J-Money thing made no sense to me. If he was raised in an austere monastary why would he using stupid nicknames for a lawyer he's just met? and why would his social skills remain that of a 10 year old when he's spent the past 15 years socialising with people in KunLun- does he have some kind of disassociative disorder?
> 
> Danny's personality wasn't well thought out in this show, the calm, focussed portrayal in the Spiderman cartoon made sense to me but this petulant, self-serving Netflix version just seems a bit too all over the place and that is annoying. I'm not really seeing how he fits with the other 3 Defenders or why any of them would want to work with him (well except that he has money)




The Ultimate Spider-Man Danny is excellent. Like, really excellent. 

I'd also have gladly taken the weirdo tinker/hobby-mechanic, loser vibe secret badass Danny of the recent comics run. He is all bad jokes and unbridaled optmisitic enthusiasm, and it annoys the snot out of Luke, and it is the best.


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