# Dragon Roots Magazine DIDN'T sell the 4e Killed Gary shirts



## DM-Rocco (Aug 20, 2008)

For the record, Dragon Roots Magazine did not sell or wear the, "4e killed Gary," t-shirts.  I got a lot of e-mails from people thinking it was our booth, but it was not us.

We did sell shirts, but it was not those ones.  It had our in tribute of Gary art from our Issue #1 cover art on the front and the offical GenCon logo along with a quote from Gary "Roll high, Game long" (which was the quote winner from our Gary quote contest we held after he passed away) on the back.

We do have a few left over if people are interested in a purchase but we didn't have anything to do with th, "4e killed Gary," t-shirts.  I'm not sure how the rumor got spread, but it wasn't us.


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## Ranger REG (Aug 20, 2008)

DM-Rocco said:


> For the record, Dragon Roots Magazine did not sell or wear the, "4e killed Gary," t-shirts.  I got a lot of e-mails from people thinking it was our booth, but it was not us.
> 
> We did sell shirts, but it was not those ones.  It had our in tribute of Gary art from our Issue #1 cover art on the front and the offical GenCon logo along with a quote from Gary "Roll high, Game long" (which was the quote winner from our Gary quote contest we held after he passed away) on the back.
> 
> We do have a few left over if people are interested in a purchase but we didn't have anything to do with th, "4e killed Gary," t-shirts.  I'm not sure how the rumor got spread, but it wasn't us.



Were there any concrete evidence of such a shirt?

You better make sure your company trademark cannot be easily counterfeited and used in such a distastefully creative manner.


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## DM-Rocco (Aug 20, 2008)

Ranger REG said:


> Were there any concrete evidence of such a shirt?
> 
> You better make sure your company trademark cannot be easily counterfeited and used in such a distastefully creative manner.




From what I can tell, and it is a hard mystery to unravel after the fact, but I think someone was talking about us on one thread and then someone mentioned the 4e killed Gary shirts and assumed that we were apart of it since the thread began about us.  From what I can tell, this is were it started and it spread quickly to several other sites.  Which sucks, because it is very hard to clean up after everyone gets a chance to splatter the news wherever they want.

I did see some people walking around with those shirts and I did see the booth they sold them at and I can assure you that the shirts did not have our logo on them and we had nothing to do them.


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## sjmiller (Aug 20, 2008)

I saw a group of folks wearing that particular shirt.  It appeared to be one entire gaming group.  They stopped by my booth to look at our products, which is the only reason why I know the shirts existed.  Very busy convention otherwise.  I didn't even get a chance to stop by your booth.


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## DM-Rocco (Aug 20, 2008)

sjmiller said:


> I saw a group of folks wearing that particular shirt.  It appeared to be one entire gaming group.  They stopped by my booth to look at our products, which is the only reason why I know the shirts existed.  Very busy convention otherwise.  I didn't even get a chance to stop by your booth.




We had a last minute chance to go to GenCon so I didn't get a chance to advertise.  Depending on what listing you looked at, we were in booth #1602 or not listed at all.  I learned a ton about GenCon and what I should do rather than what we did.  I think next year will rock because we won't have all the overhead of this trip.  Instead of the $1200 we had to spend on a 10 x 10 we are signed up for author's row, which is only $150.  This will be our biggest improvement since we can relax and enjoy the show more without having to cut our arms off to pay for the show.

What booth were you in and what did you sell?


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## Branduil (Aug 20, 2008)

Someone made "4e killed Gary" shirts?


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## Aus_Snow (Aug 20, 2008)

Yeah, so unbelievably far beyond tasteless. . .

Anyway, great to hear it wasn't you guys. Not that I really thought it would've been, but it's good to have it confirmed. Well, denied. You know what I mean.


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## DM-Rocco (Aug 21, 2008)

Aus_Snow said:


> Yeah, so unbelievably far beyond tasteless. . .
> 
> Anyway, great to hear it wasn't you guys. Not that I really thought it would've been, but it's good to have it confirmed. Well, denied. You know what I mean.




Yeah, I got home to over 100 e-mails thinking it was us and it was mind numbing to return them all and explain it wasn't.  The post on enworld was taken on faith and later disbuted, at least on some of the other threads on other forums I could point to the exact place where the subject changed and say, "see, that wasn't us, they are talking about others."


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## Traycor (Aug 21, 2008)

I can't remember what board I saw it on, but I saw the thread where the rumor started. Someone speculated that it was your company's booth and it all just blew up from there.


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## DM-Rocco (Aug 21, 2008)

Traycor said:


> I can't remember what board I saw it on, but I saw the thread where the rumor started. Someone speculated that it was your company's booth and it all just blew up from there.




Yes, that sounds like how it started from what I can nail down.  I was hoping it wouldn't spread to ENWorld but here we are.


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## SSquirrel (Aug 21, 2008)

DM-Rocco said:


> Yes, that sounds like how it started from what I can nail down.  I was hoping it wouldn't spread to ENWorld but here we are.




Maybe we can get one of the mods to post something on the front page, help get the word out that you guys actually have taste and would never sell a shirt like that.  I heard about the shirt, but hadn't seen any attribution of who was selling it.  Then again, I saw a thread titled that and had absolutely NO interest to read it.  I was just disturbed that people would stoop so low.


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## Charwoman Gene (Aug 21, 2008)

"Dragon Roots made those shirts?  Whoa, I hadn't heard that, thanks for the info." -- An example of what happens when you fight too hard against a nasty rumor.  You spread it.


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## DM-Rocco (Aug 21, 2008)

SSquirrel said:


> Maybe we can get one of the mods to post something on the front page, help get the word out that you guys actually have taste and would never sell a shirt like that.  I heard about the shirt, but hadn't seen any attribution of who was selling it.  Then again, I saw a thread titled that and had absolutely NO interest to read it.  I was just disturbed that people would stoop so low.




That would be great if the mods don't mind.

We actually did sell a tribute t-shirt to Gary and we have sizes small through triple xl left over.  We were going to sell them on our own website to re-coup the base costs of the extra shirts but now I feel guilty trying to sell the extra t-shirts since it takes advantage in a different way of Gary's passing.

A few people have told me to just post it on our website because it isn't our fault that others got the wrong idea about us.  So I did post on our website that the remaininng, "Roll High, Game Long!" t-shirts are for sale.  Still, it is my nature to feel guilty about these things so we are going to give away any proceeds to a charity in honor of Gary.  However, I haven't been on ENWorld for a month or so and I notice ENWorld has some server issues.  If Morrus is okay with it, we could just as easily give the proceeds to ENWorld to update the servers.  Gary loved ENWorld just as much as any other place so if the folks in charge give us the blessing, we would be happy to send proceeds to a new server.  I think Gary would like that.  Something that improves the quality of the gaming communnity and I'm sure that if he was still alive, he would agree that he would like more speed 

Let me know guys, I would be happy to work something out.


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## DM-Rocco (Aug 21, 2008)

Okay, to avoid confusion, I posted the shirts we DID sell on our website, www.dragonroots.net


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## sjmiller (Aug 21, 2008)

DM-Rocco said:


> What booth were you in and what did you sell?



We were in booth 305, right next to the autograph area.  We were selling the Origin's Award nominated Doctor Wizard's Patented Elevation Indicator.  We also had new products for using the EI with larger figures.  It was a lot of fun hawking our wears and meeting all sorts of people.  If you would like to know more about the Elevation Indicators, let me know.  I am the shill man and PR person for them.


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## Rechan (Aug 21, 2008)

Branduil said:


> Someone made "4e killed Gary" shirts?



My question is, "Did 4e take Gary's stuff"? 

I kid, because I love. RIP EGG.


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## DM-Rocco (Aug 21, 2008)

Charwoman Gene said:


> "Dragon Roots made those shirts?  Whoa, I hadn't heard that, thanks for the info." -- An example of what happens when you fight too hard against a nasty rumor.  You spread it.




I realize you're trying to be funny, but it really isn't.  Again, in case someone is reading your reply, we did NOT sell those shirts.

You can view which shirt we did sell at www.dragonroots.net


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## DM-Rocco (Aug 21, 2008)

sjmiller said:


> We were in booth 305, right next to the autograph area.  We were selling the Origin's Award nominated Doctor Wizard's Patented Elevation Indicator.  We also had new products for using the EI with larger figures.  It was a lot of fun hawking our wears and meeting all sorts of people.  If you would like to know more about the Elevation Indicators, let me know.  I am the shill man and PR person for them.




WHoa, that is a mouth full.

Yeah, go ahead and send me some info.  I tired to make all the booths but I only ever really got the the authors and artists with a select few in the main area.  I feel I really missed out and I would love to hear from you and any others that I didn't get a chance to see or hear from.


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## Ranger REG (Aug 21, 2008)

DM-Rocco said:


> I did see some people walking around with those shirts and I did see the booth they sold them at and I can assure you that the shirts did not have our logo on them and we had nothing to do them.



So, whose booth was selling such disgusting, beyond tasteless, offensive as selling your mother's own freshly-made turd in customer's hot dogs type of shirts?



sjmiller said:


> I saw a group of folks wearing that particular shirt.  It appeared to be one entire gaming group.  They stopped by my booth to look at our products, which is the only reason why I know the shirts existed.  Very busy convention otherwise.  I didn't even get a chance to stop by your booth.



Wow. Too bad we can't do anything to that group legally ... and the keyword is "legally."


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## DM-Rocco (Aug 21, 2008)

Ranger REG said:


> So, whose booth was selling such disgusting, beyond tasteless, offensive as selling your mother's own freshly-made turd in customer's hot dogs type of shirts?
> 
> 
> Wow. Too bad we can't do anything to that group legally ... and the keyword is "legally."




I can't recall which booth it was, only that in a mad dash to get from one place to another quickly I saw it for sale in a booth.  Sorry, I know that doesn't help that ass kicking.


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## Ranger REG (Aug 21, 2008)

DM-Rocco said:


> Sorry, I know that doesn't help that ass kicking.



Wouldn't help anyway since the perps and sympathizing group is on the mainland and I'm in Hawaii. I got less than five months to meet my quota of kicking someone's ass. Wish me luck.


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## Kzach (Aug 21, 2008)

This is why I shouldn't socialise with other human beings.

I'd be grinding my teeth trying to prevent myself from beating those people up.

That sort of stress just isn't healthy


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## Hussar (Aug 21, 2008)

Man, that's just icky.  Nothing like owning up to the gamer stereotype of knuckle dragging, mouth breathing social troglodytes.  Gawd.  Whoever these guys are, I hope they have at least a tiny shred of decency and feel bad about it.


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## Samuel Leming (Aug 21, 2008)

Oh, come on!

When people wear t-shirts like that they're actually looking to start trouble. The best thing to do is just ignore them and let the problem take care of itself as they move on to cause trouble some other way somewhere else.

Sam


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## Relique du Madde (Aug 21, 2008)

Let me guess...  in the famed words of some comedian (whose name I can't remember at the moment)..

"Too soon?"

A little black humor doesn't kill anyone, unless the person who gets killed died laughing (or got murdered by a self-proclaimed defender of public taste who is in dire need of anger management).  Next thing you know people will be taking offense at the "WoTC killed GLEEMAX" t-shirts or even worse the edition war starting "WoTC killed"  t-shirt.


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## Relique du Madde (Aug 21, 2008)

Double post


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## Nifft (Aug 21, 2008)

Relique du Madde said:


> Let me guess...  in the famed words of some comedian (whose name I can't remember at the moment)..
> 
> "Too soon?"
> 
> A little black humor doesn't kill anyone, unless the person who gets killed died laughing (or got murdered by a self-proclaimed defender of public taste who is in dire need of anger management).  Next thing you know people will be taking offense at the "WoTC killed GLEEMAX" t-shirts or even worse the edition war starting "WoTC killed"  t-shirt.



 Wait -- you mean fantasizing extreme violence isn't the answer to every social conflict?

"_I may need a new hobby_", -- N


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## Hussar (Aug 21, 2008)

Y'know, you may have the absolute right to express yourself however you like.

I retain the right to think that people who use the death of a notable figure to express their distaste of an edition to be in incredibly poor taste.


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## Henrix (Aug 21, 2008)

Oh, please, let us avoid the revenge porn, it leads nowhere. I'm certain Gary would not have liked it.


It would be nice to find out who made the shirts, though, to avoid buying from them by accident.

And I'm truly sorry to hear you've been implicated, DM-Rocco. I sincerely hope you get cleared in the minds of all gamers.

And "Roll high, Game long" is a very good quote - do you mind me asking where it's from?


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## Angel Tarragon (Aug 21, 2008)

DM-Rocco said:


> We did sell shirts, but it was not those ones.  It had our in tribute of Gary art from our Issue #1 cover art on the front and the offical GenCon logo along with a quote from Gary "Roll high, Game long" (which was the quote winner from our Gary quote contest we held after he passed away) on the back.



I was the winner. I am very glad to see my fathers' legacies live on. If my dad hadn't taken me to GenCon last year, he wouldn't have have taken that picture. 

I am so very pleased to see that photo on a shirt for other gamers to enjoy. Now I have to wrangle one!


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## blargney the second (Aug 21, 2008)

Henrix said:


> It would be nice to find out who made the shirts, though, to avoid buying from them by accident.



Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking.  I try hard to stay the heck away from people with judgement that poor.
-blarg


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## sjmiller (Aug 21, 2008)

DM-Rocco said:


> WHoa, that is a mouth full.
> 
> Yeah, go ahead and send me some info.  I tired to make all the booths but I only ever really got the the authors and artists with a select few in the main area.  I feel I really missed out and I would love to hear from you and any others that I didn't get a chance to see or hear from.



Would you like me to send a PM or an email, or just spill my guts here, so to speak?

Oh, and I noticed that you are local to me!  Well, on the other side of the metro area.  The Elevation Indicator was invented by my friend from St. Cloud.  Come visit us at the Minnesota Renaissance Festival.  Ask around for the Riddle Booth.  We'll be more than happy to make you think.


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## DM-Rocco (Aug 21, 2008)

Henrix said:


> Oh, please, let us avoid the revenge porn, it leads nowhere. I'm certain Gary would not have liked it.
> 
> 
> It would be nice to find out who made the shirts, though, to avoid buying from them by accident.
> ...




We actually had a quote contest for famous quotes from Gary after he passed.  We chose\, "Roll high, Game long!" as the winner from an individual who meet Gary.  I liked that best as it seemed to fit the gamer spirirt.


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## DM-Rocco (Aug 21, 2008)

Reveille said:


> I was the winner. I am very glad to see my fathers' legacies live on. If my dad hadn't taken me to GenCon last year, he wouldn't have have taken that picture.
> 
> I am so very pleased to see that photo on a shirt for other gamers to enjoy. Now I have to wrangle one!




I'm glad you approve.  I hope you enjoyed your free issue of issue #1.  We still have plenty of sizes left over of the shirts so if you want one, let me know.  Ordering information is on our website.


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## DM-Rocco (Aug 21, 2008)

sjmiller said:


> Would you like me to send a PM or an email, or just spill my guts here, so to speak?
> 
> Oh, and I noticed that you are local to me!  Well, on the other side of the metro area.  The Elevation Indicator was invented by my friend from St. Cloud.  Come visit us at the Minnesota Renaissance Festival.  Ask around for the Riddle Booth.  We'll be more than happy to make you think.




Oh, a local.  Hell, feel free to call me 651-276-3487.  After this mix up, with all the free product I gave away to try and mend bad feelings about something we didn't do, I might not be able to make it to ren fest this year.


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## Particle_Man (Aug 21, 2008)

Ranger REG said:


> Wouldn't help anyway since the perps and sympathizing group is on the mainland and I'm in Hawaii. I got less than five months to meet my quota of kicking someone's ass.




Lilo: Isn't it great that we live on an island without any major cities?

Ranger REG: AAAAAAAAARRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!


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## Gargoyle (Aug 21, 2008)

sjmiller said:


> I saw a group of folks wearing that particular shirt.  It appeared to be one entire gaming group.  They stopped by my booth to look at our products, which is the only reason why I know the shirts existed.  Very busy convention otherwise.  I didn't even get a chance to stop by your booth.




I saw them, it was about four guys, all together.  Didn't see any for sale anywhere at the Con.  Most tasteless, ignorant thing I've ever seen in gaming.


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## Traycor (Aug 21, 2008)

Okay, I think I found the thread where the rumor started. It was on the forums of the GenCon website.

http://community.gencon.com/forums/t/17983.aspx


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## Insight (Aug 21, 2008)

Kzach said:


> This is why I shouldn't socialise with other human beings.
> 
> I'd be grinding my teeth trying to prevent myself from beating those people up.
> 
> That sort of stress just isn't healthy




I'm not sure how I would have reacted.  It's beyond tasteless.  Freedom of speech is one thing, but someone is PROFITING from selling a product CELEBRATING a beloved icon's death.  That is inexcusable.  At the very least, I would have found out who was selling those shirts and complained to the Powers That Be.  Enough complaints and at least that vendor might stop selling the shirts, or perhaps stop displaying them for sale.


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## Caliber (Aug 21, 2008)

Just a note to the OP, when I first read this thread I thought "oh hmm, I already know who sold those shirts, I read about it a while back ..."

Only later did I click the link (principally out of boredom) to see what it was about. Maybe change the title to Dragon Roots did not sell the shirts at GencCon, rather than the more generic we. Makes it easier to know what's going on for us lazy types.


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## johnsemlak (Aug 21, 2008)

It sounds as if its possible that these shirts were made by four friends who showed up wearing them, and they weren't for sale anywhere.

If that's what happened then obviously it was in poor taste but perhaps its best to to get too worked up about it.  All this speculation on who was selling these shirts or whatever has already led to one false rumor on the matter.


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## DM-Rocco (Aug 21, 2008)

Traycor said:


> Okay, I think I found the thread where the rumor started. It was on the forums of the GenCon website.
> 
> http://community.gencon.com/forums/t/17983.aspx




This is where I think it started too.  They mixed us up with the 4e killed gary guys half way through.  I am please to also annouce that the original concern of the thread was also a misunderstanding and they are now happy too.


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## DM-Rocco (Aug 21, 2008)

johnsemlak said:


> It sounds as if its possible that these shirts were made by four friends who showed up wearing them, and they weren't for sale anywhere.
> 
> If that's what happened then obviously it was in poor taste but perhaps its best to to get too worked up about it.  All this speculation on who was selling these shirts or whatever has already led to one false rumor on the matter.




No, I actually did see them for sale somewhere.  I don't recall where though, so I keep quite onthat front.


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## DM-Rocco (Aug 21, 2008)

Caliber said:


> Just a note to the OP, when I first read this thread I thought "oh hmm, I already know who sold those shirts, I read about it a while back ..."
> 
> Only later did I click the link (principally out of boredom) to see what it was about. Maybe change the title to Dragon Roots did not sell the shirts at GencCon, rather than the more generic we. Makes it easier to know what's going on for us lazy types.




For the lazy people then, i changed it


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## Ranger REG (Aug 22, 2008)

Samuel Leming said:


> Oh, come on!
> 
> When people wear t-shirts like that they're actually looking to start trouble.



Then let's give them trouble.


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## Ranger REG (Aug 22, 2008)

Particle_Man said:


> Lilo: Isn't it great that we live on an island without any major cities?
> 
> Ranger REG: AAAAAAAAARRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!



AFAIC, Honolulu's is a major enough city for me. Glad I got out of there with what's left of health and sanity.


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## Silver Moon (Aug 22, 2008)

DM-Rocco said:


> No, I actually did see them for sale somewhere.  I don't recall where though, so I keep quite onthat front.



Not surprised, I recall back when EGG passed seeing one or two posts to that effect right here on ENWorld, which were just ignored at the time rather than inciting a flame war.  It doesn't surprise me that somebody took it to the next level.


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## DM-Rocco (Aug 22, 2008)

Silver Moon said:


> Not surprised, I recall back when EGG passed seeing one or two posts to that effect right here on ENWorld, which were just ignored at the time rather than inciting a flame war.  It doesn't surprise me that somebody took it to the next level.




It reminds me of the, "I hate Gary," bloggers when he passed away.  People went nuts on them too.  At least those people you knew who they were.


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## der_kluge (Aug 22, 2008)

Has anyone considered the possibility that *no one* at Gen Con sold this shirt? It sounds more likely to me that these individuals showed up to the convention wearing the shirt, and probably had them custom made in their home town.


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## sjmiller (Aug 22, 2008)

der_kluge said:


> Has anyone considered the possibility that *no one* at Gen Con sold this shirt? It sounds more likely to me that these individuals showed up to the convention wearing the shirt, and probably had them custom made in their home town.



This is what I assumed when I saw them at my booth.  That many people wearing the same shirt made me think they came with them.  Considering they were all pretty large guys, I didn't figure anyone had that many XXXL or larger shirts available.


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## catsclaw227 (Aug 22, 2008)

What age group were they guys that were wearing them?  

I mean, if it were some younger guys, teens or something, I could see them not having a clue about how classless and tacky it is. Not that I agree or condone such behavior, in this case it could be chalked up to immaturity and I can just wave it off.

(EDIT: I want to say that not all teens or young guys are immature, classless or tacky.  I just wanted to note that some younger men have a tendency to do things without a thought about who it affects.)

But if they were regular adults, with families and friends and jobs, it never crossed their minds that making them is just plain wrong?  And that WEARING THEM TO GENCON is exponentially worse?   

Didn't someone they know give them the hint that it was in serious bad taste???


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## DM-Rocco (Aug 23, 2008)

der_kluge said:


> Has anyone considered the possibility that *no one* at Gen Con sold this shirt? It sounds more likely to me that these individuals showed up to the convention wearing the shirt, and probably had them custom made in their home town.




No, I know I saw them sold at a booth, my eye caught them as I was rushing past to get from one side of the four mile trek across the con floor to the other, but I can't recall where so I don't want to say to place blame on another.

I also tried to do a shirt exchange with another shirt company near us and they asked if we where one of the companies that sold that t-shirt.  They had been around the floor and wanted to buy one of them but the booth that sold them said they didn't have anymore XL or bigger sizes.


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## Gundark (Aug 23, 2008)

DM-Rocco said:


> WHoa, that is a mouth full.





Must....resist....urge....to....resist.........failing...

THAT"S WHAT SHE SAID!!!!!!!!


okay....whew, I'm better now.


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## DM-Rocco (Aug 23, 2008)

Gundark said:


> Must....resist....urge....to....resist.........failing...
> 
> THAT"S WHAT SHE SAID!!!!!!!!
> 
> ...




Thanks, I just spit milk through my nose


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## billd91 (Aug 23, 2008)

catsclaw227 said:


> Didn't someone they know give them the hint that it was in serious bad taste???




There's _plenty_ of bad taste at every Gen Con. I fail to see this as any worse.


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## Ranger REG (Aug 23, 2008)

sjmiller said:


> This is what I assumed when I saw them at my booth.  That many people wearing the same shirt made me think they came with them.  Considering they were all pretty large guys, I didn't figure anyone had that many XXXL or larger shirts available.



Disgusting t-shirts aside, why aren't [more] sellers providing big-n-tall clothes? I find it discriminating they only cater to skinny gamers at conventions.


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## Particle_Man (Aug 23, 2008)

With respect to the "4e killed Gary" t-shirts, is this a possible origin point?

http://dominicdeegan123.actifforum.com/chit-chat-f6/the-saddest-day-of-my-life-t1495-15.htm

Reitrenner's exact wording, half-way down the page, and his more and more emotional responses on pages 2, 3 and 4, seem to indicate a possible suspect, or at least a "person of interest" as my country's police force might say. And the comments are well before Gen Con, giving time to make the shirts in question.


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## DM-Rocco (Aug 24, 2008)

Ranger REG said:


> Disgusting t-shirts aside, why aren't [more] sellers providing big-n-tall clothes? I find it discriminating they only cater to skinny gamers at conventions.




We skillful determined the sizing of our target base and got shirts ranging from small through 5XL.  Um, we sold out of 4XL and 5XL and are still sitting on a lot of smalls.  If only I could have gottent hose girls scouts to visit our booth

Anyway, we still have 3XLs which are very roomy if I do say so myself, and I do because I wore one all weekend long.  If you are interested, check out our ordering info on our website, www.dragonroots.net.


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## DM-Rocco (Aug 24, 2008)

Particle_Man said:


> With respect to the "4e killed Gary" t-shirts, is this a possible origin point?
> 
> http://dominicdeegan123.actifforum.com/chit-chat-f6/the-saddest-day-of-my-life-t1495-15.htm
> 
> Reitrenner's exact wording, half-way down the page, and his more and more emotional responses on pages 2, 3 and 4, seem to indicate a possible suspect, or at least a "person of interest" as my country's police force might say. And the comments are well before Gen Con, giving time to make the shirts in question.




I thnk you might be on to something there.  I don't want to point fingers at him and say it was him, but I would wager that it inspired the idea of it in a t-shirt.  Plus, his comment about, "go with 4e killed Gary and watch the drama," not only speaks to his immaturity but also sums up the feelings of the ENWorld reaction to the shirts.  He was correct, the drama that stemmed from the comment was more than I'm sure even he expected.

Whoa, it nice to see trashy forums where you can swear so you can appreciate how nice it is not to see it on ENWorld


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## GMSkarka (Aug 24, 2008)

I find it sad that there are gamers (in this thread, and on a thread on the same topic at RPGNet) who try to argue that this is somehow acceptable or at the least not worse than usual....

These guys wore this shirt, and walked the slogan through an exhibit hall _filled with Gary's friends and colleagues._


What part of that do you not get as being a horribly tasteless thing to do?


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## DM-Rocco (Aug 24, 2008)

GMSkarka said:


> I find it sad that there are gamers (in this thread, and on a thread on the same topic at RPGNet) who try to argue that this is somehow acceptable or at the least not worse than usual....
> 
> These guys wore this shirt, and walked the slogan through an exhibit hall _filled with Gary's friends and colleagues._
> 
> ...




What is worse is that Luke Gygax stopped by our booth so family of Gygax was in the house.  I didn't bring it up to him but it wouldn't take a genus to figure out what he might have thought about them.


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## CountPopeula (Aug 25, 2008)

GMSkarka said:


> I find it sad that there are gamers (in this thread, and on a thread on the same topic at RPGNet) who try to argue that this is somehow acceptable or at the least not worse than usual....
> 
> These guys wore this shirt, and walked the slogan through an exhibit hall _filled with Gary's friends and colleagues._
> 
> ...




Tasteless, rude, and offensive do not preclude something from being funny.


----------



## Shroomy (Aug 25, 2008)

CountPopeula said:


> Tasteless, rude, and offensive do not preclude something from being funny.




True, but those t-shirts were hardly funny or clever.


----------



## Al'Kelhar (Aug 25, 2008)

Shroomy said:


> True, but those t-shirts were hardly funny or clever.




Shouldn't that comment be prefaced with "IMO" or "IMHO".  Or are there now objective tests for "funny" or "clever"?

One may say the same about a certain group of cartoons depicting the Prophet Mohammed published in the European media last year.  That is, opinions on such matters can differ.  While it is appropriate that DM-Rocco distance his company from articles which are able to cause offence to some for good PR reasons, I don't think it appropriate that these forums become the venue for vigilante outrage, as exemplified by the link on the front page of ENWorld asking people to identify the alleged malefactors who produced the offending articles.  I'm sure we have all caused offence to others at some time - and I would conjecture that those of us who hold strong opinions on things (which would be, I suspect, most ENWorld members) have done so deliberately from time to time.  Given the glass houses in which we all live, I'd respectfully suggest we stop throwing stones.

Cheers, Al'Kelhar


----------



## DM-Rocco (Aug 25, 2008)

Al'Kelhar said:


> Shouldn't that comment be prefaced with "IMO" or "IMHO".  Or are there now objective tests for "funny" or "clever"?
> 
> One may say the same about a certain group of cartoons depicting the Prophet Mohammed published in the European media last year.  That is, opinions on such matters can differ.  While it is appropriate that DM-Rocco distance his company from articles which are able to cause offence to some for good PR reasons, I don't think it appropriate that these forums become the venue for vigilante outrage, as exemplified by the link on the front page of ENWorld asking people to identify the alleged malefactors who produced the offending articles.  I'm sure we have all caused offence to others at some time - and I would conjecture that those of us who hold strong opinions on things (which would be, I suspect, most ENWorld members) have done so deliberately from time to time.  Given the glass houses in which we all live, I'd respectfully suggest we stop throwing stones.
> 
> Cheers, Al'Kelhar




Being one that doesn't always come across as intended in e-mails and posts (I'm referring to myself, not you) I would have to say that I can see why they put that on the front page of the ENWorld forums.  I can also understand why people need to know.  Everyone loves a good mystery.  If for no other reason, I think that is, IMO, why people are getting worked up.  That and the t-shirts are a mystery in and of themselves.  The Mystery aside, this has an element of disrespect for the Gygax family and through that connection a shred of disrespect for all gamers in general.  Given that, some people have decided that knowing who it is, is not enough.  They also want to avoid any success to the company in question by avoiding contributions to that company in the form of purchased goods.

I understand the need to have closure and to make sure that such a thing doesn't go unanswered.  I think you bring up a few valid points, but I think that the rest of the EWWorld has spoken and they want to know who it is so they can avoid giving that company further moneys or support.  I, being the original target of this blood hunt, would caution against making claims that you, or I, can’t back up.  However, if I say, went to a companies website and saw a blog boasting about the t-shirts they wore or actually saw them for sale, I would have no problem calling them out.

Personally, even if I had strong evidence I think I, in light of what has already happened to our company, would feel a little guilty about naming another as the culprit.  I think that is why I am not googling, “4e killed Gary,” t-shirts trying to actively track them down or go through the list of vendors at GenCon and check out their websites.  On some level I agree with you.

On the other hand, I think some expression of anger is not only in order but it is a good check and balance for the community as a whole.  I remember when those cartoons came out last year.  I also remember a lot of people saying it was no big deal.  I also recall the outrage by the Muslim community.  Without the outrage by that community, it would be setting a precedent that in the future such a cartoon would be appropriate.  Without the EWNworld getting upset over the Gary shirts, it sets a precedent that it is okay to mock our founding father and make light of his death.

Um, I am losing my train of thought, and hopefully that came out better to you in print then it did in my head, but I hope you get the idea.


----------



## billd91 (Aug 25, 2008)

GMSkarka said:


> I find it sad that there are gamers (in this thread, and on a thread on the same topic at RPGNet) who try to argue that this is somehow acceptable or at the least not worse than usual....
> 
> These guys wore this shirt, and walked the slogan through an exhibit hall _filled with Gary's friends and colleagues._
> 
> ...




Meh. There are plenty of other tasteless and truly abominable things going on in this world to get too worked up about some yahoos using a dead celebrity to take a potshot at a game. I shook my head with reasonable disapproval when I heard about it and moved on.


----------



## Hussar (Aug 25, 2008)

Bill91 - I'm not all that worked up about it.  However, I do believe voting with my wallet.  If I knew what company did this, I would certainly not buy anything from them.  

I'm not advocating any sort of retribution or anything like that, but, I certainly think I have the right not to support a company that does things I actively disagree with.

Had Dragon Roots Magazine done this, I would certainly never buy their products, and would be sure to tell everyone I knew not to as well.  ((NOTE, I KNOW YOU DIDN'T DO IT))


----------



## Jack99 (Aug 25, 2008)

Al'Kelhar said:


> Shouldn't that comment be prefaced with "IMO" or "IMHO".  Or are there now objective tests for "funny" or "clever"?
> 
> One may say the same about a certain group of cartoons depicting the Prophet Mohammed published in the European media last year.  That is, opinions on such matters can differ.




Those were satirical, made to prove a point regarding our freedom of speech. Problem was, the muslims didn't quite get the satire 

I do not think those T-shirt were satire. Ergo, not the same thing, at all.


----------



## questing gm (Aug 25, 2008)

DM-Rocco said:


> From what I can tell, and it is a hard mystery to unravel after the fact, but I think someone was talking about us on one thread and then someone mentioned the 4e killed Gary shirts and assumed that we were apart of it since the thread began about us.  From what I can tell, this is were it started and it spread quickly to several other sites.  Which sucks, because it is very hard to clean up after everyone gets a chance to splatter the news wherever they want.
> 
> I did see some people walking around with those shirts and I did see the booth they sold them at and I can assure you that the shirts did not have our logo on them and we had nothing to do them.




I'm not trying to cause a big fuss over this but I have been following this up after reading this thread and a couple bloggers on this issue. 

I would just like to ask if this is the thread, you were referring which started with the rumors?


----------



## DM-Rocco (Aug 25, 2008)

questing gm said:


> I'm not trying to cause a big fuss over this but I have been following this up after reading this thread and a couple bloggers on this issue.
> 
> I would just like to ask if this is the thread, you were referring which started with the rumors?




Someone linked to that thread earlier.  In that thread it was mentioned half way through, not in relation to us, that someone was selling those shirts with, "4e killed Gary."  A few people miss read this and thought it actually said we did sell the shirts and proceeded to tell me thier displeasure in an e-mail.  I didn't even know about the thread until I got home from GenCon since I did have access to the net all weekend.  So I had a late start putting out fires.

So, that is where I think it started from the best I can tell.  Oh, and as I said before, the original point of the thread was a misunderstanding and those original posters are now happy and on good terms with us.  I only feel I have to mention that so as not to open another can of worms.


----------



## GMSkarka (Aug 25, 2008)

billd91 said:


> Meh. There are plenty of other tasteless and truly abominable things going on in this world to get too worked up about some yahoos using a dead celebrity to take a potshot at a game.




Maybe what you're not getting is that for many of us in that Exhibit Hall, Gary isn't a "dead celebrity."     He was a friend, a co-worker, a colleague....

Would you react with "Meh" if some chuckleheads were mocking the death of one of _your_ friends?


This seems to be the disconnect for many.   Try a little empathy, folks.


----------



## billd91 (Aug 25, 2008)

GMSkarka said:


> Maybe what you're not getting is that for many of us in that Exhibit Hall, Gary isn't a "dead celebrity."     He was a friend, a co-worker, a colleague....
> 
> Would you react with "Meh" if some chuckleheads were mocking the death of one of _your_ friends?
> 
> ...




And for MOST people at the Con, Gygax is a not-personally-known celebrity (and not a universally loved one, at that). So try a little proportion, folks.


----------



## Brown Jenkin (Aug 25, 2008)

Beatrice Hall - 1907 said:
			
		

> I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.




This sums up my feelings here. I am more bothered by the witch hunt attitude that seems to be going on here than what was on the shirts. Some folks are legitimately expressing just their displeasure while others seeming want to take it to another level, either by censorship or even violence. 

Let us also remember that Gary Gygax was just a man like everyone else. While he did help create D&D (and lets not forget that he was not alone in this) that does not make him some sort of infallible being that should be elevated upon death to the point that anything critical of him or that dishonors him needs to have those responsible hunted down and punished. While I respect what he did for our hobby I see no need to protect his memory to this level just because some people don't respect his memory as much as others.



GMSkarka said:


> Maybe what you're not getting is that for many of us in that Exhibit Hall, Gary isn't a "dead celebrity."     He was a friend, a co-worker, a colleague....
> 
> Would you react with "Meh" if some chuckleheads were mocking the death of one of _your_ friends?
> 
> ...




I would react with "meh" if I were one of his friends. First Gary was a celebrity which opens him up to a wider range of issues than if he were an unknown. These people didn't know Gary so I wouldn't expect the same level of respect that I would expect from his friends and family. While insensitive this was not a personal attack, nor to many of the people complaining was he a personal friend, co-worker, or family. Second his death was not being mocked, nor was he being directly disrespected. 

As I stated above I personally wouldn't wear such a shirt I will stand up for those who chose to.


----------



## Hussar (Aug 25, 2008)

Brown Jenkin - Would you also stand up for people's rights to not purchase merchandise sold by this company?


----------



## DM-Rocco (Aug 25, 2008)

Brown Jenkin said:


> While insensitive this was not a personal attack, nor to many of the people complaining was he a personal friend, co-worker, or family.




I have to chime in here.  

Dr. Martin Luther King or JFK or Pope John Paul II or Ronald Reagan were not personal friends, they were not family or even co-workers.  Are you saying that because of this I had no right to feel greif when Pope John Paul II or Ronald Reagan passed away?  Is it okay that people mock or make fun of JFK or Mr. Martin Luther King?  My point isn't that it is America and that while here people have freedom of speech and CAN do what they did.  My point isn't that people will eventually make light of certain personallities.  My point is that you don't have to be a family memeber, a co-worker or a personal friend to feel empathy for a man who changed the lives of many.

I won't get started on my speech about how the world, and not just the gaming world, would be different without him.  However, to say that because we didn't know him personally we therefore shouldn't be outraged, well, for lack of a better word, that just seems foolish.


----------



## Brown Jenkin (Aug 25, 2008)

Hussar said:


> Brown Jenkin - Would you also stand up for people's rights to not purchase merchandise sold by this company?




Sure that is a fine way of showing displeasure. Its when that displeasure goes to the point of saying that someone shouldn't sell the product at all or that they should be physically attacked for doing so that I will object.


----------



## Brown Jenkin (Aug 25, 2008)

DM-Rocco said:


> I have to chime in here.
> 
> Dr. Martin Luther King or JFK or Pope John Paul II or Ronald Reagan were not personal friends, they were not family or even co-workers.  Are you saying that because of this I had no right to feel greif when Pope John Paul II or Ronald Reagan passed away?




No, there is nothing wrong with feeling grief for the death of people you don't know personally. I would argue however that it is different when it is someone you know personally.



DM-Rocco said:


> Is it okay that people mock or make fun of JFK or Mr. Martin Luther King?




Yes. I respect both men but that doesn't mean that I will stop others from expressing their feelings if those feelings are different than mine.



DM-Rocco said:


> My point isn't that it is America and that while here people have freedom of speech and CAN do what they did.  My point isn't that people will eventually make light of certain personallities.  My point is that you don't have to be a family memeber, a co-worker or a personal friend to feel empathy for a man who changed the lives of many.




I don't disagree, but I still hold my position. You, myself, and others may greatly respect Gary for what he did that doesn't change my opinion that others may hold different opinions, or that they shouldn't be allowed to express those opinions.



DM-Rocco said:


> I won't get started on my speech about how the world, and not just the gaming world, would be different without him.  However, to say that because we didn't know him personally we therefore shouldn't be outraged, well, for lack of a better word, that just seems foolish.




I agree that he changed the world in many ways. The New York Times had a wonderful op-ed piece when he died that covered how far his reach was. However, I personally don't see the level of what was on the shirts as being high enough to cause this level of outrage myself. The shirts may have been tacky but I didn't see them as mocking or disrespectful to the man himself. And even if they were to some people, my point was mostly that the sense of outrage seemed to be directed in ways that seemed inappropriate.


----------



## DM-Rocco (Aug 25, 2008)

Brown Jenkin said:


> Sure that is a fine way of showing displeasure. Its when that displeasure goes to the point of saying that someone shouldn't sell the product at all or that they should be physically attacked for doing so that I will object.






Brown Jenkin said:


> No, there is nothing wrong with feeling grief for the death of people you don't know personally. I would argue however that it is different when it is someone you know personally.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Well, okay, it just seemed as if you didn't want people to get upset about it.  That is what sucks about e-mails and forums, it is hard to get a feeling of what is being said without a voice behind it.

Anyway, I think that your concern about people wanting to lynch and beat people is mostly bravado from people who want to express their outrage but I'm sure if they really saw those people face to face they wouldn't take a baseball bat to their heads.


----------



## DM-Rocco (Aug 25, 2008)

Hey, I dig that multi quote option.  That is really cool.


----------



## Vyvyan Basterd (Aug 25, 2008)

Brown Jenkin said:


> I am more bothered by the witch hunt attitude that seems to be going on here than what was on the shirts. Some folks are legitimately expressing just their displeasure while others seeming want to take it to another level, either by censorship or even violence.




You seem surprised. People went into an frenzy of emotions when they found out the gnome wasn't going to be in the Players Handbook. It's just internet venting. I don't think anyone really means harm to those who sold or wore those shirts. Otherwise there probably would have been reports of such directly from GenCon.


----------



## Particle_Man (Aug 25, 2008)

From what I can glean from the link I posted earlier in this thread, it is possible that the seller/buyers of the t-shirts in question were not intending to mock Gary.  It is possible that their "nerd rage" vs. 4e was strong enough that they used Gary's name (without, of course, getting permission from his estate) in their misguided edition war.  Still tacky, thoughtless and disrespectful, mind you, but I bet if you asked some of them, they might even have thought that they were *defending* Gary.


----------



## Set (Aug 25, 2008)

Particle_Man said:


> From what I can glean from the link I posted earlier in this thread, it is possible that the seller/buyers of the t-shirts in question were not intending to mock Gary. It is possible that their "nerd rage" vs. 4e was strong enough that they used Gary's name (without, of course, getting permission from his estate) in their misguided edition war. Still tacky, thoughtless and disrespectful, mind you, but I bet if you asked some of them, they might even have thought that they were *defending* Gary.




Seemed terribly obvious to me, but this thread made it to page three before you piped up with a similar view.  4E was the entity that got majorly slammed, by saying that it killed the closest thing the gaming community has to a founding father.

Horribly tacky, nonetheless.


----------



## CountPopeula (Aug 25, 2008)

DM-Rocco said:


> I have to chime in here.
> 
> Dr. Martin Luther King or JFK or Pope John Paul II or Ronald Reagan were not personal friends, they were not family or even co-workers.  Are you saying that because of this I had no right to feel greif when Pope John Paul II or Ronald Reagan passed away?  Is it okay that people mock or make fun of JFK or Mr. Martin Luther King?  My point isn't that it is America and that while here people have freedom of speech and CAN do what they did.  My point isn't that people will eventually make light of certain personallities.  My point is that you don't have to be a family memeber, a co-worker or a personal friend to feel empathy for a man who changed the lives of many.
> 
> I won't get started on my speech about how the world, and not just the gaming world, would be different without him.  However, to say that because we didn't know him personally we therefore shouldn't be outraged, well, for lack of a better word, that just seems foolish.




You know, I make fun of Ronald Reagan all the time. I literally danced a jig when he died. Just because he's dead doesn't mean I'm going to pretend I liked him, and it certainly doesn't mean he's suddenly going to stop being the butt of my jokes.

So Gary Gygax. I didn't know him, but he died about 10 days before my dad. I made similar jokes about my dad's passing related to various things he would have disapproved of long before Gencon. I still have a tendency to say "Wow, if dad was still alive, this would have killed him."

The t-shirts. I didn't go to Gencon. I like 4th edition more than any previous edition. But I think they're funny. And I think since so many people have their hackles up about them, selling them right now would probably be a profitable idea.


----------



## DM-Rocco (Aug 26, 2008)

CountPopeula said:


> You know, I make fun of Ronald Reagan all the time. I literally danced a jig when he died. Just because he's dead doesn't mean I'm going to pretend I liked him, and it certainly doesn't mean he's suddenly going to stop being the butt of my jokes.
> 
> So Gary Gygax. I didn't know him, but he died about 10 days before my dad. I made similar jokes about my dad's passing related to various things he would have disapproved of long before Gencon. I still have a tendency to say "Wow, if dad was still alive, this would have killed him."
> 
> The t-shirts. I didn't go to Gencon. I like 4th edition more than any previous edition. But I think they're funny. And I think since so many people have their hackles up about them, selling them right now would probably be a profitable idea.




You can dance a jig all you want, I don't care.  But it is rude to do it during his funeral.  Tell all the Gary jokes you want behind our backs, but don't express those feeling in a room full of friends, family, co-workers and admirers.  I bet you wouldn't dance a jig against Regean during a national republican convention.  Or if you did, then sad to say, you just don't get it.


----------



## Crothian (Aug 26, 2008)

Brown Jenkin said:


> This sums up my feelings here. I am more bothered by the witch hunt attitude that seems to be going on here than what was on the shirts. Some folks are legitimately expressing just their displeasure while others seeming want to take it to another level, either by censorship or even violence.




Since all the people here can do is talk about violence and talk about censorship shouldn't you also defend their right to say such things?  

I didn't see the shirts.  If I had I probably would have asked the guys about it expressed my displeasure with the shirts by telling them I think it is in bad taste.  I also have no problems with people voicing their disapproval or approval on the net.  As long as it is just talk it is fine.


----------



## CountPopeula (Aug 26, 2008)

DM-Rocco said:


> You can dance a jig all you want, I don't care.  But it is rude to do it during his funeral.  Tell all the Gary jokes you want behind our backs, but don't express those feeling in a room full of friends, family, co-workers and admirers.  I bet you wouldn't dance a jig against Regean during a national republican convention.  Or if you did, then sad to say, you just don't get it.




I most certainly would, given the chance. And that's not the same thing, you won't find any of Reagan's family at a republican convention.

To be honest, I didn't want to bring it up, since I wasn't there, but from what I heard, your booth sounds far more offensive to me than these t-shirts. Using someone's death to make a statement about something you don't like and feel they wouldn't like is one thing. I don't find it any more offensive than saying "so and so would be rolling over in their grave at this." But setting up a booth to sell merchandise with their face and seemingly nothing else, using a funeral to draw people to your booth, selling t-shirts and magazines and doing everything you can to put your brand name next to a dead man's face offends me. And just because it's sentimental and not shocking doesn't make it any better.

But that's your choice, you don't think it's wrong to do, and it's your right. The 4e Killed Gary shirts play to the same audience, they just use shock over sentiment.


----------



## Ranger REG (Aug 26, 2008)

CountPopeula said:


> I most certainly would, given the chance. And that's not the same thing, you won't find any of Reagan's family at a republican convention.
> 
> To be honest, I didn't want to bring it up, since I wasn't there, but from what I heard, your booth sounds far more offensive to me than these t-shirts. Using someone's death to make a statement about something you don't like and feel they wouldn't like is one thing. I don't find it any more offensive than saying "so and so would be rolling over in their grave at this." But setting up a booth to sell merchandise with their face and seemingly nothing else, using a funeral to draw people to your booth, selling t-shirts and magazines and doing everything you can to put your brand name next to a dead man's face offends me. And just because it's sentimental and not shocking doesn't make it any better.
> 
> But that's your choice, you don't think it's wrong to do, and it's your right. The 4e Killed Gary shirts play to the same audience, they just use shock over sentiment.



*looks at *CountPopeula*, shakes his head in the most fatherly disappointment fashion, and moves on*


----------



## Brown Jenkin (Aug 26, 2008)

Crothian said:


> Since all the people here can do is talk about violence and talk about censorship shouldn't you also defend their right to say such things?




Your right. I fully support your right to yell "Fire" in a crowded theater. Let me know how it goes.


----------



## Kzach (Aug 26, 2008)

Here's another example of someone with good sense. A classic quote from an operator in the #enworld chatroom:

11:23 <MinceR> i think they'll use the rotation of the body of Gary Gygax in his grave to enter the energy market

Ah, the epitome of taste and decorum. Glad he's representing ENW.


----------



## RefinedBean (Aug 26, 2008)

So.

Would the issue be resolved if we found one of these people and asked them, "So, why'd you do that?  What did you gain?  What did you set out to prove?"

No, of course not.  In all seriousness, discomfort is a personal emotion, and is never FORCED upon oneself by others.  People don't make you cringe when something sick/disgusting/disrespectful is presented: that's a reaction that, although elicited, still comes from you.

This isn't blaming the victim, by the by.  This is merely pointing out the fact that, whether it's pictures of Mohammed or a shirt that makes light of Gary Gygax's death, these events are defined more by how people have reacted then how the material is presented.

And if that was the intent of the shirts, well...I doubt it.  But you really can't blame people who wear such things any more than you can blame people for making a big hullabaloo about it.

(Note:  Not blaming DM_Rocco in the slightest either, it's good business and good kharma to clear one's name of controversy)


----------



## Mistwell (Aug 26, 2008)

I still can't track down the shirt people.  These two sites mention the topic, but that's far from conclusive:

http://www.sheezyart.com/journal/462923/

and

http://www.myspace.com/mac_iii


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## DM-Rocco (Aug 26, 2008)

CountPopeula said:


> I most certainly would, given the chance. And that's not the same thing, you won't find any of Reagan's family at a republican convention.
> 
> To be honest, I didn't want to bring it up, since I wasn't there, but from what I heard, your booth sounds far more offensive to me than these t-shirts. Using someone's death to make a statement about something you don't like and feel they wouldn't like is one thing. I don't find it any more offensive than saying "so and so would be rolling over in their grave at this." But setting up a booth to sell merchandise with their face and seemingly nothing else, using a funeral to draw people to your booth, selling t-shirts and magazines and doing everything you can to put your brand name next to a dead man's face offends me. And just because it's sentimental and not shocking doesn't make it any better.
> 
> But that's your choice, you don't think it's wrong to do, and it's your right. The 4e Killed Gary shirts play to the same audience, they just use shock over sentiment.




See, that is the problem that a lot of people ran into.  The people who didn't stop by heard things from a second source and blew it out of proportion.  You weren't there, so allow me to explain it a bit.

We didn't show the memorial service to draw people in, we showed it as a sign of respect and for people to pay a last bit of respect for those people who couldn't brave a blizzard to be there.  We never intentionally disrupted people viewing except to say that the sound could not be heard because of the ambient noise of the hall and we encouraged people to either lean in to hear better or come back to watch, undisturbed, once we had better speakers.  Even when we got better speakers, the volume of the speakers couldn’t compete with the hall so we took it down because it defeated the purpose of the display.  

We actually got a lot of great feed back on the display, with the exception of one person who posted on GenCon threads, and many thanked us for it.  

As to our own shirts, the picture we have of Gary on our shirts is actually our cover of issue #1, it pays respect to him and memorializes him.  The quote on the back is from our quote contest we had after has passed away, so we didn’t put words in his mouth.  Even Luke Gygax and a few other friends of the family came by to purchase one.  I wasn’t there when Luke stopped by but my staff told me they gave him one for free.

So, I don’t see how that is the same, but you are entitled to your opinion.


----------



## DM-Rocco (Aug 26, 2008)

Mistwell said:


> I still can't track down the shirt people.  These two sites mention the topic, but that's far from conclusive:
> 
> http://www.sheezyart.com/journal/462923/
> 
> ...



Interesting.

I hardly think it is proof enough to airlift Ranger REG into combat though

Okay, I am teasing if you couldn't tell.  The thread is getting a little serious and I feel I have to make that clear


----------



## Ranger REG (Aug 26, 2008)

DM-Rocco said:


> Interesting.
> 
> I hardly think it is proof enough to airlift Ranger REG into combat though
> 
> Okay, I am teasing if you couldn't tell.  The thread is getting a little serious and I feel I have to make that clear



Teasing about my weight? Not cool.


----------



## CapnZapp (Aug 26, 2008)

Henrix said:


> Oh, please, let us avoid the revenge porn, it leads nowhere.



Congrats on being imblogtalized!

---

For what it's worth, I agree with "It’s 2008, get over it." and "4e didn’t kill Gary, it just makes him roll over in his grave."
http://mxyzplk.wordpress.com/2008/08/24/4e-killed-gary-gygax/


----------



## Wulf Ratbane (Aug 26, 2008)

Well, this thread has certainly provided a bumper crop of a-holes to add to my Ignore list.


----------



## Mark (Aug 26, 2008)

Wulf Ratbane said:


> Well, this thread has certainly provided a bumper crop of a-holes to add to my Ignore list.





I'm only quoting you because most people probably can't read your posts.


----------



## Mark (Aug 26, 2008)

Mistwell said:


> I still can't track down the shirt people.





I doubt Gary would approve of this hunt.  Let it go.


----------



## Darkwolf71 (Aug 26, 2008)

CountPopeula said:


> So Gary Gygax. I didn't know him, but he died about 10 days before my dad. I made similar jokes about my dad's passing related to various things he would have disapproved of long before Gencon. I still have a tendency to say "Wow, if dad was still alive, this would have killed him."




There is such a huge difference hear that it shouldn't need pointing out. You would (or at least should IMO) feel quite differently if a group of total strangers were making light of your dad's death. Why, you might even get upset.

I lost my sister several years ago, recently my mom and I had a bit of a laugh at the fact that she would have turned 40 this year. That's among family, and that's ok. If I came acoss someone else making off color comments about her... I'd poke them in the friggen eye.

But then, I've been told I have a temper.


----------



## DM-Rocco (Aug 26, 2008)

Ranger REG said:


> Teasing about my weight? Not cool.




* sigh *

No, I am not.  

I meant it as in, “find the location and deploy you, and/or team of like minded individuals, in a tactical strike through the use of a parachute to sneak in behind enemy lines to assault the enemy,” like Bravo company during World War II.  Given your previous bravado I thought you would find it humorous.

I didn’t mean like Operation Dumbo Drop.

Yes, I was just having fun and didn't mean we should really pay to have Ranger REG or others go to assualt them.  It was constructive humor.

Another example of why I don’t always come off as intended in e-mails and posts


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## Wonka (Aug 26, 2008)

CountPopeula said:


> To be honest, I didn't want to bring it up, since I wasn't there, but from what I heard, your booth sounds far more offensive to me than these t-shirts. Using someone's death to make a statement about something you don't like and feel they wouldn't like is one thing. I don't find it any more offensive than saying "so and so would be rolling over in their grave at this." But setting up a booth to sell merchandise with their face and seemingly nothing else, using a funeral to draw people to your booth, selling t-shirts and magazines and doing everything you can to put your brand name next to a dead man's face offends me. And just because it's sentimental and not shocking doesn't make it any better.
> 
> But that's your choice, you don't think it's wrong to do, and it's your right. The 4e Killed Gary shirts play to the same audience, they just use shock over sentiment.




Soooo, let me get this straight. You're offended by someone selling items in remembrance of a figure respected by many, but take no offense to someone making tshirts _mocking_ said person? Ok! Whatever works for you! If those people SOLD the shirts in question would you take offense? Would it be ok to sell shirts mocking him but not to sell shirts honoring him?


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## Wulf Ratbane (Aug 26, 2008)

Mark said:


> I'm only quoting you because most people probably can't read your posts.





I'm just happy to know _you_ still can.


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## Eridanis (Aug 26, 2008)

Thread closed. I think the OP has gotten his message out, and the rest of the discussion is going downhill quickly.


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