# Best Gestalt Combos?



## Nyaricus

And by best, I mean most powerful. For example:

Archivist/Wizard - potential to learn any spell in the game - NICE!

Favoured Soul/Paladin - Charisma-based uberness w/d10 HD, good BAB, all good saves, etc.

Fighter/Rogue - lotsa feats, good BAB, good Fort/Ref, and skills outta your *expletive*

etc.

So, what's a good Gestalt Combo?



cheers,
--N


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## EyeontheMountain

If you do a search you will see multiple threads on just this topic.


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## Jack Simth

Depends somewhat on the sources you have available.

For example, there are some nifty feats in Complete Adventurer that change most of the Monk's Wis based features to Intelligence or Charisma based.... which makes a great pairing with Wizard or Sorcerer (as they can't effectively wear armor anyway).  The Sorcerer/paladin is a Sorcerer with good HD, healing, and saves coming out the wazoo (due to Divine Grace from the primary spellcasting stat).  The Druid/monk or Cleric/monk can get a bit crazy, too.


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## brehobit

Marshal/X
Where X is a Charisma based class. (Paladin, Favored soul, etc.)  Bard and Crusader (a bit CHR based) are probably the best.

The argument is that an a Gestalt game the most important thing is actions.  And most of a marshal's special abilities don't need an action....

Mark


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## RigaMortus2

Any combination of divine caster/arcane caster (Druid/Wizard, Sorcerer/Cleric, etc.)  Assuming you can get high enough in level.

Spellcasters just rule at high levels.  No combination of melee classes could beat them.  Even a melee class/spellcaster would not (imho) be better than doubling up on spellcasting.


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## starwed

I think a scout/fighter archer build would be pretty fun, and could definitely dish out some heavy damage.  Or fighter/psychic warrior; you get a _ton_ of feats that way, and a lot of the psychic warrior's powers work as swift actions or pre-battle buffs.


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## Nifft

RigaMortus2 said:
			
		

> Spellcasters just rule at high levels.  No combination of melee classes could beat them.  Even a melee class/spellcaster would not (imho) be better than doubling up on spellcasting.




Strongly disagree. I think you want a mix of active (spellcasting) and passive (saves + evasion, skill points, hit points, immunities) abilities. Having something to do when spells fail is also a bonus -- even if you can only do one thing in a combat-round, that doesn't mean you should limit yourself to only being able to do one thing ever. Anti-magic fields exist, as do golems.

So my picks would be:

*Monk // Druid* -- Lawful Neutral; what equipment?

*Ranger // Wizard* -- "Elf"; great saves, decent HP, good skills, full BAB (also *Ranger // Psion*).

*Scout // Wizard* (or *Scout // Psion*) -- Similar to the above, but better skills and worse BAB. Fort save suffers slightly, but Ray damage increases.

*Sorcerer // Paladin 4 / Marshal* -- Good saves, good hit points, Charisma synergy.

*Cleric // Feat Rogue* (UA variant) -- All good saves + Evasion, skills, and finally some Feats for the combat Cleric.

*Fighter // Cloistered Cleric* (UA Variant) -- More feats, more spells, decent skills. Similar to the above, but full BAB and fewer skill points.

*Binder // Psion* -- Fixed power list, flexible vestige selection, decent skill list. Nice combination of "all-day" powers and "Nova" powers, and he can cast in armor. Also consider *Warlock // Psion*.

Cheers, -- N


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## blargney the second

brehobit said:
			
		

> Marshal/X
> Where X is a Charisma based class. (Paladin, Favored soul, etc.)  Bard and Crusader (a bit CHR based) are probably the best.
> 
> The argument is that an a Gestalt game the most important thing is actions.  And most of a marshal's special abilities don't need an action....



That makes sense!  Dragon Shaman ought to achieve a similar effect.


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## Patlin

Here are a few I find interesting:

Knight/Favored Soul: d12 hd, healing, all good saves, Good BAB
Warlock/Scout: d8 HD, Skirmish and blast, Good Ref/Will, Medium Fort, Medium BAB, Skills
Warforged Warblade/Artificer; d12 HD, Good Fort/Will, Good BAB – Warblade = in combat abilities, artificer = long term buffs and self heals
Rogue/Divine Mind: d10 HD, sneak attack, auras, all good saves, Skills
Duskblade/Psion: d8 HD, Good Fort/Will, Good BAB
Warforged Fighter/Psion(Shaper)
Fighter/Psychic Warrior: Tons of Feats, d10 Hd, Good Fortitude Saves, Good BAB
Scout/Psion


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## wildstarsreach

Duskblade/Wizard

This give the duskblade access to all the arcane spells that the class lacks, full base attack and a sychronicty with the intelligence stat.

Some people think that they should get to arcane channeling with divine spells but it is arcane channeling, not divine channeling.  That is why I doubled up on the arcane spells.


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## wildstarsreach

Patlin said:
			
		

> Duskblade/Psion: d8 HD, Good Fort/Will, Good BAB




My god, I hadn't thought of that, it's so unholy that it's great.


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## EyeontheMountain

wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> My god, I hadn't thought of that, it's so unholy that it's great.




Meh. Manifesting is not arcane, so i think you lose something there.

A couple I have (No builds, just interesting prestige classes for gestalt)

Divine Champion: Quick way to pick up 9th level spells in one domain. Scout plus travel, or arcane caster plus heal can be quite strong. Go with a fighter for 7 levels first to be tough from the get go. 

Pyromancer and any melee build. Their whip has reach and attacks as a touch weapon every attack. Add in abilities that do extra damage like power attack and go to town. Even better go with a Sonic??mancer from some article onteh WTOC webpage. Shooting of a 10d6 fire bolt every round at 15th level is not to be laughed at either. 

Beastmaster wtith a supreme divine or arcane buffer. More for fun than anything. But you could have a FEARSOME pack of wolves.

Shugenja and Wu-Jen. Wonky magic all around. Not very powerful at all, but  at least noone will have any idea what you are casting. Including the other players.

Warshaper. Should be easy to get into with two classes of abilities, and for offense and espeically defense, it is hard to beat. +4 Con/Str Fast Healing, etc.

Lots of fun builds


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## bestone

Right now im trying a strange ass combo

Duskblade / Dread necromancer

I just hit level 10 this weekend, and my gosh is it powerfull, its the most buff thing i've played yet.

Before i selected that i toyed with the idea of cleric/dread necro, cleric taking deathbound and undeath domains, combined with dread necro's undead mastery and you'll controll more undead than you would ever want to bother with.


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## BlueBlackRed

From experience:
Rogue/Warmage - Heavy damage with the occasional sneak attack thrown in.
Druid/Wizard(conjurer) - Never enter melee again, have tons of summoned allies do it. With UA options you can tweak it even further and summon a little quicker.


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## gnfnrf

Fighter/Druid works very well, and if prestige classes are allowed, Druid/Master of Many Forms is powerful enough to break many games.  At 12th level, my build along these lines adventured solely in the form of a fully equipped war troll, with all abilities intact.  Actually, he scared the DM into ending the game early, so I never got to play him.

--
gnfnrf


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## szilard

If you want to play an awesome spellcaster, I submit:

Beguiler/Warmage

or - if you are concerned the bit of MAD in that combo:

Spellthief/Warmage

I haven't looked at it, but I wonder how Shadowcaster/Beguiler would work. 

Other nice combinations:

Swordsage/Druid - focus on Wild Shape and maneuvers usable with claws.

Warblade/Fighter - A Warblade with Fighter bonus feats? Yes, please.

Duskblade/Beguiler - a very well-rounded character... broad casting ability, good BAB and HD, some armor, a ton of skills...

I think a Dragon Shaman/Paladin would be a lot of fun, too. Dragon Shaman/Crusader? Paladin/Crusader?

-Stuart


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## Rolzup

Hideos Blow can make a Warlock/Rogue really nasty.  And a lot of the Warlock Invocations work really well with a Rogue build in general.


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## Bill Muench

Personally, I'm a big fan of druid/ninja. Super-sneaky, great spell-list, useful companion, great skills, synergistic abilities, etc. And very thematic in the "forest ninja" vein. Only real downside is a moderate BAB.


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## Pyrex

I'm not entirely certain how 'optimal' it is, but I've thought that if nothing else a Spellthief//Warlock would be a lot of fun.


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## Someone

Psiwarrior/Warblade would sinegize extremely well.


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## brehobit

blargney the second said:
			
		

> That makes sense!  Dragon Shaman ought to achieve a similar effect.



Yep.  In fact if (Marshal/Dragon Shaman) on one side and Sorc or Paladin on the other works really really well.

Mark


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## Hypersmurf

brehobit said:
			
		

> The argument is that an a Gestalt game the most important thing is actions.  And most of a marshal's special abilities don't need an action....




Yup.  I'm playing in a gestalt game at the moment - we all started as gestalt barbarians, but we just hit 2nd level and can multiclass away from barbarian if we want.

I'm going Dragon Shaman with my Druid, and I'm talking the Bard into going Marshal (he wants to take the second level of Barbarian for the Uncanny Dodge, but he'll go Marshal after that).

-Hyp.


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## Sejs

Bard/Druid.

Not only does it thematically jive, but there isn't a single damn thing you _can't_ do at least reasonably well.


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## Seeten

szilard said:
			
		

> Warblade/Fighter - A Warblade with Fighter bonus feats? Yes, please.




Try this as Warblade/Rogue, where the rogue is the UA variant that gets feats, thus adding crazy skills and skill points to the mix, also.


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## Kurashu

Psychic Warrior/Pretty much anything is a sure bet.
Any two full casting classes (wizard/cleric, wizard/psion, cleric/psion, et cetera)


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## Plane Sailing

twin full casting classes doesn't necessarily work well - I've seen a wizard/psion, and his lousy saves and hit points killed him pretty quickly.

A really great combo would be Ftr/Psion - full casting in armour, loads of hit points, loads of feats. A fighter/sorcerer is doing very well in one campaign I'm in (while I'm having fun with a paladin/bard, since we are ignoring alignment restrictions on the bard)


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## Justin Cray

Warlock/War Blade

Get that Hideous Blow cracking (after you get into position with invocations and manouvers)!

Very durable with d12 HD, DR and Medium Armor.


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## Darklone

I'd love to try a Lurk/Rogue. You can't get more sneak attack.


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## Nyaricus

Darklone said:
			
		

> I'd love to try a Lurk/Rogue. You can't get more sneak attack.



That's pretty potent, actually. Plus with that feat from XPH that lets you re-roll 1's and combined with those other feats that let you get rid of SA dice for cool effects, you'd have _tons_ of SAing in battle. Unfortunatly, not being familiar with the Lurk beyond "psionic rogue-like class" I can't say how synergistic they'd be otherwise.

cheers,
--N


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## Hypersmurf

Darklone said:
			
		

> I'd love to try a Lurk/Rogue. You can't get more sneak attack.




Would a gestalt Lurk/Rogue have more sneak attack dice than a single-classed Rogue?

Wouldn't it fall under the 'Class features two classes share' rule?

-Hyp.


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## Herobizkit

Here are a few of my favourites:

Monk//Rogue:  Scary when you combine Stunning Fist + Sneak attack.

Fighter//Rogue: The guy is the ultimate "action hero", especially if you add in Use Magic Device.

Monk//Psion:  One player made a Dwarf Monk/Psion (the kind that specializes in energy and doing damage) and he rocked... he was like the Matrix meets Street Fighter. *LOL*

Any two of Favored Soul, Sorcerer, and Bard.  Lots of flavorful goodness in there, with CHA doing the heavy lifting for everyone.


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## Quartz

Knight // Monk looks as if it might be pretty potent. Note how few of the Monk's abilities you lose by wearing armour.


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## szilard

Monk\Druid is a classic scary gestalt.

Monk\Fighter is nice. A Monk with Fighter HD, BAB, and Bonus Feats (on top of the Monk Bonus Feats)? Yup. Monk\Ranger isn't too bad, either.

-Stuart


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## MongooseFamiliar

Ninja seems to combine with other classes really well in gestalt.

Someone already mentioned the Druid/Ninja. "Now you see the Dire Bear, now you don't...."

I've also heard that Rogue/Ninja is insane. You would get the best of both worlds, plus crazy SA damage. 

Monk/Ninja would also be fun. Invisible fists of fury! Sudden Strike damage would be crazy...

I'll also say Scout/Ranger. Bowalicious.


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## Moonstone Spider

Scout has a nice synergy with Warlock, both are light armor fast-movers, eldritch blast can't be used in a full attack, only as a standard action.  Scout skirmish damage only works on standard actions since you also have to use a move action to get the bonus.

The downside is only a 3/4 BAB and relatively slim HP so it's not as good as some of the others here but it has it's moments.  Makes a surprisingly good Wuxia-type ninja on the flavor side..


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## Seeten

MongooseFamiliar said:
			
		

> Ninja seems to combine with other classes really well in gestalt.
> 
> Someone already mentioned the Druid/Ninja. "Now you see the Dire Bear, now you don't...."
> 
> I've also heard that Rogue/Ninja is insane. You would get the best of both worlds, plus crazy SA damage.
> 
> Monk/Ninja would also be fun. Invisible fists of fury! Sudden Strike damage would be crazy...
> 
> I'll also say Scout/Ranger. Bowalicious.




You can get Scout/Ranger now without Gestalt, its in Complete Scoundrel, Take Swift Hunter, and Scout 3/Ranger 17. Voila.


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## Nyaricus

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> Would a gestalt Lurk/Rogue have more sneak attack dice than a single-classed Rogue?
> 
> Wouldn't it fall under the 'Class features two classes share' rule?
> 
> -Hyp.



Lurks have "Psionic SA" and it's gained at different levels than a normal rogue (and peters out at 4d6), so it appears it would indeed stack 

cheers,
--N


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## Hypersmurf

Nyaricus said:
			
		

> Lurks have "Psionic SA" and it's gained at different levels than a normal rogue (and peters out at 4d6), so it appears it would indeed stack




Different levels is covered:
_Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class._

1, 3, 5, 7, 9 etc is faster than 2, 7, 12, 17, so if the two class features are the same, Rogue is 'the faster class', and the sneak attack dice will accrue at the rogue rate.

To me, "a lurk can deliver a sneak attack just like a rogue can" argues that it's a shared feature, with the lurk having an extra limitation that he can only use it while focused.

-Hyp.


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## satori01

If you have access to TOB & PHB II I would humbly submit the:

Crusader/Knight.

Knight abilities will ensure that you pull the agro...and the Crusader Abilities will ensure you Heal and turn whatever damage you take into damage you deal.

D12 HD, Mettle, Good Fort and Will Saves and a truly scary combo when you use White Raven Maneuvers to do colossal damage with Spirited Charge.  With the right Devoted Spirit Strikes and Stances you can easily heal yourself and practically never die.

Druid/Totemist from Magic of Incarnum I think would work well.  Wildshape plus Soulbinds would be some pretty fun stuff.


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## Defender_X

I'm suprised no one thought of the knight/paladin combo.  Good will and fort saves, d12 hit dice, charisma bonus to saves and some spell casting.  Maybe not a damage-dealer, but definately a good meat shield.


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## JiCi

Duskblade/Warblade: spells and maneuvers altogether
Dragon Shaman/just about any class: anyone can get the power of dragons
Marshal/either Crusader or Paladin
Swordsage/Rogue
Rogue/Warlock
Duskblade/Warmage
Factotum/any class
Fighter/any class: fighter bonus feats are always welcomed


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## Engilbrand

While the Lurk can make a Sneak Attack like a Rogue, it's not technically a SA. It's a Psychic SA, and it has different rules related to when it can be used. Like a Psychic Warrior/Fighter. They both get bonus feats, but they technically pull from different lists. While one includes the other, it also has other things as part of it. That's a lot of bonus feats.
Personally, I advocate the Warmage/Beguiler.
An Incarnate/Cleric could be pretty interesting.
Factotum/Rogue? I haven't read everything on the class, but Int guys should LOVE the Factotum.


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## MongooseFamiliar

Seeten said:
			
		

> You can get Scout/Ranger now without Gestalt, its in Complete Scoundrel, Take Swift Hunter, and Scout 3/Ranger 17. Voila.




.....

Yes. That is multi-classing. If you get the feat, with multi-classing with synergies.

Gestalt would be Scout 20/Ranger 20. That is different.


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## Darklone

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> Different levels is covered:
> _Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class._
> 
> 1, 3, 5, 7, 9 etc is faster than 2, 7, 12, 17, so if the two class features are the same, Rogue is 'the faster class', and the sneak attack dice will accrue at the rogue rate.
> 
> To me, "a lurk can deliver a sneak attack just like a rogue can" argues that it's a shared feature, with the lurk having an extra limitation that he can only use it while focused.
> 
> -Hyp.



Ah well... I'd rule differently because of the need to be psionically focused combined with the ability to sneak attack undead and constructs.

But I see your point.

Still, the augment sneak attack would still work on top of the rogues sneak attack.


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## Hypersmurf

Darklone said:
			
		

> Ah well... I'd rule differently because of the need to be psionically focused combined with the ability to sneak attack undead and constructs.




I'm reading the Lurk excerpt on the WotC website - I don't have CPsi.  It doesn't mention an exception for undead and constructs - did that get added later?



> Still, the augment sneak attack would still work on top of the rogues sneak attack.




Sure.

-Hyp.


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## wildstarsreach

Duskblade/Ninja
Ninja/Psychic Warrior

good combat power and damage for both


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## jason_gosse

Wu Jen Barbarian. 
At first some may doubt this, but think about this: at 13th level the Wu Jen gets the spell "Giant Size", a spell that only gets better as you level up. So you have a huge or larger (depending on level) raging character. I think that works out rather well. Not to mention a few other interesting spells that would come in handy , and the barbarian has d12 and damage reduction are not bad either.


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## Patlin

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> I'm reading the Lurk excerpt on the WotC website - I don't have CPsi.  It doesn't mention an exception for undead and constructs - did that get added later?




It's not in front of me, but my recollection is that some of the possible lurk augments allow sneak attack on undead or constructs.


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## Hypersmurf

Patlin said:
			
		

> It's not in front of me, but my recollection is that some of the possible lurk augments allow sneak attack on undead or constructs.




That's not a difference between Sneak Attack and Psionic Sneak Attack, then; it's a difference between Sneak Attack and Augmented Sneak Attack.

-Hyp.


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## Patlin

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> That's not a difference between Sneak Attack and Psionic Sneak Attack, then; it's a difference between Sneak Attack and Augmented Sneak Attack.




I don't disagree.  Though it seems to me "Psionic Sneak Attack" for which you must have psionic focus is sufficiently different from "sneak attack" to count as a different class ability.  After all, if Skirmish and Sudden Strike are different from Sneak Attack, why not Psionic Sneak attack?  They're all just slightly different shades of the same thing.

I might not allow them to stack for purpose of entry into a prestige class, but the Gestalt rules discuss that seperately.


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## Hypersmurf

Patlin said:
			
		

> I don't disagree.  Though it seems to me "Psionic Sneak Attack" for which you must have psionic focus is sufficiently different from "sneak attack" to count as a different class ability.  After all, if Skirmish and Sudden Strike are different from Sneak Attack, why not Psionic Sneak attack?




Because Psionic Sneak Attack says "just like a rogue can".

If there were a class that gained Sneak Attack while raging, I wouldn't consider that a different feature to the Rogue's Sneak Attack; I'd consider it the same feature, but with a limitation on when it can be used.

Just like Psionic Sneak Attack - the same feature, with a limitation on when it can be used.

-Hyp.


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## Patlin

Sudden Strike, if I recall correctly, has an entry indicating it counts as sneak attack for purposes of meeting prerequisites.  It's basically sneak attack, but not while flanking.

Same feature, or different?

That's just another example, though.  My real point is that the line has to be drawn somewhere... why draw it so as to exclude?

Of course, this is why your opinion is so widely respected.  You only talk about what the rule is, while most of us (myself included) get hung up on what the rule should be.


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## RigaMortus2

Nifft said:
			
		

> Strongly disagree. I think you want a mix of active (spellcasting) and passive (saves + evasion, skill points, hit points, immunities) abilities. Having something to do when spells fail is also a bonus -- even if you can only do one thing in a combat-round, that doesn't mean you should limit yourself to only being able to do one thing ever. *Anti-magic fields exist, as do golems.*




As do spells that do not require saves, and do not have Spell Resistance.  Picking the right mix of spells is key.

And there are easy ways to get past AMF at higher levels as well.  Orb spells anyone?


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## Nifft

RigaMortus2 said:
			
		

> As do spells that do not require saves, and do not have Spell Resistance.  Picking the right mix of spells is key.
> 
> And there are easy ways to get past AMF at higher levels as well.  Orb spells anyone?




Sure, your attack is covered (so long as you're not the one in the AMF). But you're an egg with a hand grenade. It's better to take a complementary class which helps you survive all the times that it's not your turn to act.

For example, Swordsage // Fighter is excellent, because Fighter feats can give you bonuses that don't require an action to use (like Weapon Specialization or Iron Will), and Swordsage is notoriously short on feats. Swordsage // Cleric would be a bit of a waste in combat, because so many of your actions are spoken for (though it would have good buff + fight tactics, and great Wisdom synergy).

IMHO, you should try to pair an active-abiltiy class (Sorcerer) with a passive-ability class (Marshal, Paladin).

Cheers, -- N


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## RigaMortus2

Nifft said:
			
		

> Sure, your attack is covered (so long as you're not the one in the AMF). But you're an egg with a hand grenade. It's better to take a complementary class which helps you survive all the times that it's not your turn to act.
> 
> For example, Swordsage // Fighter is excellent, because Fighter feats can give you bonuses that don't require an action to use (like Weapon Specialization or Iron Will), and Swordsage is notoriously short on feats. Swordsage // Cleric would be a bit of a waste in combat, because so many of your actions are spoken for (though it would have good buff + fight tactics, and great Wisdom synergy).
> 
> IMHO, you should try to pair an active-abiltiy class (Sorcerer) with a passive-ability class (Marshal, Paladin).
> 
> Cheers, -- N




Well, when you double up on spells, you have the melee part taken care of (Shapeshifting or Polymorph).  Since the OP never specified a level range, I am looking at the long term.  The "best" long term gestalt character (level 20) would be arcane/divine spellcaster mix.  They can do anything a melee class can do, plus cast spells.  With the right feats, spells and PrC abilities, they can bypass AMF as well.

Addendum: A Psion would be a good sub for the arcane part as well.


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## Patlin

Nifft said:
			
		

> IMHO, you should try to pair an active-abiltiy class (Sorcerer) with a passive-ability class (Marshal, Paladin).




That's a usefull way to look at it.  The Warblade/Artificer I mentioned earlier sort of fits the bill.  Artificer has long casting times and reasonably long durations on a lot of infusions, and building magic items is obviously an out of combat benefit as well.  As long as you don't go for a "blastificer" wand build, there's no reason not to concentrate on your warblade abilities exclusively once combat starts.

Of course, I also like the Warlock/Scout which doesn't really fit this rule.  Skirmish and Eldritch blast are both active abilities, but you can use both with the same trigger.  I supposte it depends on how you define active and passive.


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## Rystil Arden

Nifft said:
			
		

> Sure, your attack is covered (so long as you're not the one in the AMF). But you're an egg with a hand grenade. It's better to take a complementary class which helps you survive all the times that it's not your turn to act.
> 
> For example, Swordsage // Fighter is excellent, because Fighter feats can give you bonuses that don't require an action to use (like Weapon Specialization or Iron Will), and Swordsage is notoriously short on feats. Swordsage // Cleric would be a bit of a waste in combat, because so many of your actions are spoken for (though it would have good buff + fight tactics, and great Wisdom synergy).
> 
> IMHO, you should try to pair an active-abiltiy class (Sorcerer) with a passive-ability class (Marshal, Paladin).
> 
> Cheers, -- N



 I agree with Nifft's insights into active and passive benefits--it's something I considered when making my flavourful gestalt-balanced classes.  Also, I tended to give more abilities to combos that were a bit subpar to begin with (Rogue/Bard, for instance, is notoriously horrible)


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## Kurashu

MongooseFamiliar said:
			
		

> .....
> 
> Yes. That is multi-classing. If you get the feat, with multi-classing with synergies.
> 
> Gestalt would be Scout 20/Ranger 20. That is different.





That's what he was saying. I haven't read the feat, but I have a feeling it lets ranger and scout levels stack for purposes of Favored Enemey and Skirmish.

And I don't know if you meant to, but you came off as a little condescending.


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## RigaMortus2

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> I agree with Nifft's insights into active and passive benefits--it's something I considered when making my flavourful gestalt-balanced classes.  Also, I tended to give more abilities to combos that were a bit subpar to begin with (Rogue/Bard, for instance, is notoriously horrible)




"passive" abilities are all great and all, but I do not see how a melee/spellcaster is more powerful than a arcane/divine spellcaster.


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## Jack Simth

RigaMortus2 said:
			
		

> "passive" abilities are all great and all, but I do not see how a melee/spellcaster is more powerful than a arcane/divine spellcaster.



Spellcaster/melee usually has more HP, and probably a better reflex save, the the Arcane Spellcaster/Divine Spellcaster.  Moreover, the Spellcaster/melee usually has less MAD.  

Take, for example, the Sorcerer/paladin.  d10 HD, Charisma-spellcasting, Charisma to saves, Charisma-based healing.... and as he only gets one action/round anyway, he can zap, zap, zap.

Compare to the Cleric/Wizard.  d8 HD, Int and Wis spellcasting, turning, a few bonus feats.  Sure, he's got spells falling out the wazoo... but good luck getting them all off.  Meanwhile, it lacks the passive defensive abilities that the Sorcerer/paladin is enjoying.  No SR, no full BAB for those attack spells (until you get to the point where you can Quicken Divine Power), and so on.

Take, as another example, the Druid/monk.  Class features up the wazoo, all good saves, Wisdom-based spellcasting, Wisdom to AC, fast movement.  Only two stats that are particularly needed; Wisdom and Con.  Oh, and if the D/m decides to enter melee, lots and lots of options (monk abilities have no particular reason to go away in an alternate from, such as caused by Wildshaping).

Compare to the Druid/Sorcerer.  Lots of class features and a metric wazooload of spells.... but three stats to worry about (Wis, Cha, Con), lower speed, can't use armor (arcane spell failure, don't cha know), and so forth.


----------



## Rystil Arden

What Jack Simth said + the following:  Though the melee/caster class isn't going to be able to go melee while blasting, it does lend itself well to buff-n-kill'em gish (or divine or psionic gish) as well as dangerous ranged touch attack spell blaster (and really, those spells are already more likely to succeed than the ones with saves, _particularly_ against gestalts.  If the caster has full BAB, ranged touch attacks become even more of a sure thing).  

Now, the whole action rule does assume that you have other characters in your group who can handle the other things you aren't doing.  Clearly if you don't have anyone else in the party gestalted with a divine caster on either side, then tacking Favoured Soul onto your Sorcerer might seem like a better idea than if you do.


----------



## Darklone

Hyp: As mentioned, I see your reasoning... 
And I do agree that the section about sneak attack and psionic sneak attack stacking does not refer to the Gestalt rules. Yet, I'd rather allow/rule these two to stack than Sudden Strike and sneak attack.

The full text:_
*Psionic Sneak Attack(Ex):* While psionically focused, a lurk can strike a vital spot for extra damage if she attacks an opponent while he is unable to defend himself effectively. This is identical to the sneak attack ability of the rogue (PH 50), except the damage only aplies when the lurk maintains a psionic focus. Sneak attack damage and psionic sneak attack damage stack whenever both would apply to the same target._


----------



## Nifft

RigaMortus2 said:
			
		

> "passive" abilities are all great and all, but I do not see how a melee/spellcaster is more powerful than a arcane/divine spellcaster.




My basic point is: arcane and divine spells use the same resource ("actions"). You want to pair your spellcaster with something that boosts his bad save(s), gives him better skills, and allows him abilities that don't use actions. Rage is a free action; quickened _divine power_ is a Swift action. One is free, the other prevents you from casting _wraithstrike_ (or whatever). Evasion doesn't cost an action, and neither does Aura of Courage.

If you want to do melee via _shapechange_, won't you be doing it better with feats and full BAB?

In my games, skills come up even at high levels, and having Sense Motive or Bluff on your list could be a big help. "Passive" doesn't always mean melee.

Cheers, -- N


----------



## RigaMortus2

Jack Simth said:
			
		

> Spellcaster/melee usually has more HP, and probably a better reflex save,




Not with spells like Bear's End, False Life, Polymorph (into a creature with a higher Con).  Spellcasters can buff up their HPs easily, a melee combatant can't.



			
				Jack Simth said:
			
		

> the the Arcane Spellcaster/Divine Spellcaster.  Moreover, the Spellcaster/melee usually has less MAD.




True, but the OP did not supply us with ability scores, so I am assuming they have the primary ability scores covered.



			
				Jack Simth said:
			
		

> Take, for example, the Sorcerer/paladin.  d10 HD, Charisma-spellcasting, Charisma to saves, Charisma-based healing.... and as he only gets one action/round anyway, he can zap, zap, zap.




Not that it wouldn't be a FUN character to play, I still see a Sorc/Cleric more powerful than your Sorc/Paladin.  The Cleric part can heal a lot better than the Paladin one can.  Even though the Paladin gets d10HPs, the Sorc/Cleric has several spells that can suppliment this.  And he'll be hitting just as well (or better) via Polymorph or Shapechange (which the Sorc part of the Paladin can do as well).



			
				Jack Simth said:
			
		

> Compare to the Cleric/Wizard.  d8 HD, Int and Wis spellcasting, turning, a few bonus feats.  Sure, he's got spells falling out the wazoo... but good luck getting them all off.  Meanwhile, it lacks the passive defensive abilities that the Sorcerer/paladin is enjoying.  No SR, no full BAB for those attack spells (until you get to the point where you can Quicken Divine Power), and so on.




I would probably use a Cleric/Sorc as the comparison, and use the Celerity and Arcane Fusion spells to get off 2 or more spells a round.  So no problem w/ getting them all off.  As I already noted, d8HPs are supplimented with False Life and improved Con via Polymorph (depending on which ruling of Poly you are using), not to mention Stoneskin.  There is a Spell Immunity spell, and a Spell Resistance spell, so there is your SR right there.  Full BAB is taken care of thanks to Divine Favor (Cleric spell) or Polymorph.

You might be assuming you do not have any time to prep your "buffs" ahead of time.  I am assuming you do.



			
				Jack Simth said:
			
		

> Take, as another example, the Druid/monk.  Class features up the wazoo, all good saves, Wisdom-based spellcasting, Wisdom to AC, fast movement.  Only two stats that are particularly needed; Wisdom and Con.  Oh, and if the D/m decides to enter melee, lots and lots of options (monk abilities have no particular reason to go away in an alternate from, such as caused by Wildshaping).




Again, I am not disagreeing that the D/M is not a FUN class to play, nor that it doesn't have plenty of options available to it, just that "pound for pound" it isn't going to be as powerful as a properly built arcane/divine caster.



			
				Jack Simth said:
			
		

> Compare to the Druid/Sorcerer.  Lots of class features and a metric wazooload of spells.... but three stats to worry about (Wis, Cha, Con), lower speed, can't use armor (arcane spell failure, don't cha know), and so forth.




Since we weren't given ability scores to assign from the OP, I can only assume whatever gestalt combo you come up with, you'll have your primary stats covered.  Lower Speed?  The Sorc will have Fly, Dimension Door, Teleport and even Exp. Retreat available to them.  How is their speed going to be lower (esp since they can teleport anywhere in an instant)?  There are PrCs out there that reduce arcane spellfailure, as well as special armor material types that do as well (once that Druid's can even use).  Use Poly or Alter Self to get that AC bonus you want (isn't a Trog like +6 or +8 nat armor).  Also Stoneskin helps with damage as well, Energy Resistance for spells, etc.  Tons of options via spells.


----------



## RigaMortus2

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> What Jack Simth said + the following:  Though the melee/caster class isn't going to be able to go melee while blasting, it does lend itself well to buff-n-kill'em gish (or divine or psionic gish) as well as dangerous ranged touch attack spell blaster (and really, those spells are already more likely to succeed than the ones with saves, _particularly_ against gestalts.  If the caster has full BAB, ranged touch attacks become even more of a sure thing).




And why can't an arcane/divine spellcasters also "buff" up and then go into melee?  Or attack from range via spells?



			
				Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> Now, the whole action rule does assume that you have other characters in your group who can handle the other things you aren't doing.  Clearly if you don't have anyone else in the party gestalted with a divine caster on either side, then tacking Favoured Soul onto your Sorcerer might seem like a better idea than if you do.




In a party context, this is true.


----------



## RigaMortus2

Nifft said:
			
		

> My basic point is: arcane and divine spells use the same resource ("actions"). You want to pair your spellcaster with something that boosts his bad save(s), gives him better skills, and allows him abilities that don't use actions. Rage is a free action; quickened _divine power_ is a Swift action. One is free, the other prevents you from casting _wraithstrike_ (or whatever). Evasion doesn't cost an action, and neither does Aura of Courage.
> 
> If you want to do melee via _shapechange_, won't you be doing it better with feats and full BAB?
> 
> In my games, skills come up even at high levels, and having Sense Motive or Bluff on your list could be a big help. "Passive" doesn't always mean melee.
> 
> Cheers, -- N




Extra actions can be gotten via Quicken Spell feat, Sudden Quicken Spell feat, Celerity line of spells, Arcane Fusion line of spells, Swift spells, Immediate spells, Polymorph into a Choker (I think that is the monster that gets an extra free Move action per round), and Timestop (to name a few).  There is also Schism and Hustle if you go the Psion route.

So there are many ways to get around the "lack" of actions you get.  It is quite easy to cast 2 or 3 spells per round (and there are slightly complex ways to cast more per round if you want to get into it, see Celerity and Arcane Fusion for one).


----------



## Darklone

RigaMortus2 said:
			
		

> Not that it wouldn't be a FUN character to play, I still see a Sorc/Cleric more powerful than your Sorc/Paladin.  The Cleric part can heal a lot better than the Paladin one can.  Even though the Paladin gets d10HPs, the Sorc/Cleric has several spells that can suppliment this.  And he'll be hitting just as well (or better) via Polymorph or Shapechange (which the Sorc part of the Paladin can do as well).



Right, the cleric would be better at casting spells... yet the main advantage of Pal/Sor: you need only CHA and your saves will rock. Good hitpoints, good saves, good spellcasting.

Turn undead can be used with Divine Feats.

Sor/Clr needs high CHA and WIS and still needs at least good CON.


----------



## Rystil Arden

Darklone said:
			
		

> Right, the cleric would be better at casting spells... yet the main advantage of Pal/Sor: you need only CHA and your saves will rock. Good hitpoints, good saves, good spellcasting.
> 
> Turn undead can be used with Divine Feats.
> 
> Sor/Clr needs high CHA and WIS and still needs at least good CON.



 Aye, and the Pal/Sor is still mostly all there and still dangerous when the Greater Dispel bomb is dropped.  The Clr/Sor who was approximating it with Divine Power much less so.


----------



## Nifft

RigaMortus2 said:
			
		

> Extra actions can be gotten via Quicken Spell feat, Sudden Quicken Spell feat, Celerity line of spells, Arcane Fusion line of spells, Swift spells, Immediate spells, Polymorph into a Choker (I think that is the monster that gets an extra free Move action per round), and Timestop (to name a few).  There is also Schism and Hustle if you go the Psion route.




*THOSE ARE ALMOST ALL THE SAME ACTION*. You get one Swift (aka quickened) action, one Standard action, and you can't use your Move action to cast any spell I know. (C'mon, someone gimmie a move-action spell!)

_Time stop_ isn't a reliable tactic until 17th level, and even then, the things you can do with it are limited. _Schism_ is nice, and will actually net you a manifesting action (at -6 levels), but is obviously limited to Psions.

_Hustle_? What use would that be? It costs you your Swift action (which you could have used to cast a useful spell) and gives you an extra Move action (which is useless for a caster).

_Polymorph_ doesn't grant you any (Su) abilities. Look at the spell closely, especially after the errata.

You can't use two Quickened, Swift or Immediate actions in the same round.




			
				RigaMortus2 said:
			
		

> So there are many ways to get around the "lack" of actions you get.  It is quite easy to cast 2 or 3 spells per round (and there are slightly complex ways to cast more per round if you want to get into it, see Celerity and Arcane Fusion for one).




It's easy to cast 2 spells per round. Telepaths and other Psions who blow three feats can do 3 every round, but at a very high power point cost.

Two meaningful actions per round is the limit I'm talking about. (Move isn't nearly as meaningful for a Wizard or Sorcerer. There aren't many "full round action" spells, just standard and 1 round.)

Pick a secondary class that doesn't require that same resource.

Cheers, -- N


----------



## Hypersmurf

Nifft said:
			
		

> _Polymorph_ doesn't grant you any (Su) abilities. Look at the spell closely, especially after the errata.




Shapechange does, and Quickness (Su) grants an extra _standard_ action, which _is_ useful for a caster.

-Hyp.


----------



## Amazing Triangle

My 2 favorite combos are:
Rogue/Warmage
Fighter/Warmage

Whirling Blade and with Expanded Knowledge Wraithstirke...


----------



## blargney the second

Somebody suggested a Warblade//Artificer upthread, and that one's been growing on me.

Especially for a Dragonborn Warforged with Adamantine Body.  d12, +4 racial Con bonus, & heavy armor with enhancements = wahoo!


----------



## wildstarsreach

Amazing Triangle said:
			
		

> My 2 favorite combos are:
> Rogue/Warmage
> Fighter/Warmage
> 
> Whirling Blade and with Expanded Knowledge Wraithstirke...




Sorry but expanded knowledge does not give the warmage access to such spells per FAQ.


----------



## Hypersmurf

wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> Sorry but expanded knowledge does not give the warmage access to such spells per FAQ.




You're thinking of the Extra Spell feat, not the Eclectic Learning alternate Warmage class feature.

Eclectic Learning (which I suspect is what he means, since Expanded Knowledge is a Psionic feat) explicitly lets the Warmage learn non-evocation spells from the Sor/Wiz list, at one level higher than normal... so he could learn Wraithstrike as a 3rd level spell.

-Hyp.


----------



## Thanee

Yep, Expanded Knowledge is just the wrong name. 

Bye
Thanee


----------



## QuaziquestGM

warlock/soulknife.

"But, I'm unarmed...."


----------



## Nifft

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> Shapechange does, and Quickness (Su) grants an extra _standard_ action, which _is_ useful for a caster.




That is true ... but like _time stop_, it's limited to level 17+, and it's also limited by DM fiat. (Do Chokers even exist in this world? Has the party encountered any? It can be taken away without any rules bending.)

Cheers, -- N


----------



## Darklone

DMs need rulebending?


----------



## Solarious

Urban Druid/Sorceror.


----------



## the_mighty_agrippa

I'm looking at gestalts for a small gaming group in the near future.  So far, my faves are...

Paladin/Favored Soul - buff & bash
Bard/Druid - fochluchan from first level
Scout/Ranger - nasty, nasty skirmisher
Soulknife/Fighter - self contained killing machine; feats galore
Monk/Psion - saves, saves, saves, ectoplasmic fists of fury
Ranger/Druid - complete wilderness mastery
Warlock/Artificer - blasting and item mastery?  sold!
Swashbuckler/Rogue//Rouge/Duelist - purely thematic but oh so cool


----------



## the_mighty_agrippa

Here's a question, though...

Can you freely switch between classes within normal multi-classing rules?  

For example...

Human Fighter 5/Cleric 5, then Paladin X/Prestige X?  

Thanks!


----------



## wildstarsreach

I'll admit that I love the Duskblade class.  Most combos that I would take would include this class because full BA, good hit points, great armor of mithril make and sufficient magic to support leaving your choice wide open.  

My favorities are:

Duskblade/Psion(Telepath)  So you can schism and do psionics while getting full attacks as a gish

Duskblade/Wizard  So you have access to all the great spells that the wizard is good for and break the system.

Duskblade/Scout to become the great skirmisher especially if you take bounding assault and rapid blitz to get multiple attacks while continually moving.

Duskblade/rogue so that you are an awesome rogue with full BA and magic support.

Duskblade/Ninja, the ultimate assasin.


----------



## szilard

wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> I'll admit that I love the Duskblade class.  Most combos that I would take would include this class because full BA, good hit points, great armor of mithril make and sufficient magic to support leaving your choice wide open.




Try Duskblade/Spellthief: good skill points, sneak attack, utility spellcasting, steal spells
Or  Duskblade/Beguiler: good skill points, great spellcasting, bonus tricksiness, Int synergy (and possibly a better assassin than Duskblade/Ninja)

-Stuart


----------



## Nifft

Darklone said:
			
		

> DMs need rulebending?




In this forum, I prefer to think without assuming it. 

Cheers, -- N


----------



## Bryon_Soulweaver

Druid/Rogue(heh-heh).
Dread Necro/Warlock(well, there went the neighborhood).
Monk/Ranger(huh?).
Sorcerer/Warmage(uhh, is it safe?).
Beguiler/Rogue(feel sorry for the poor bastard).
Monk/Phychic Warrior(did he just do what I think he did?).
Dragon Shaman/Warmage(something's wrong with this picture).
Duskblade/Rogue(did you hear that?).
Hexblade/Wu Jen(run while you still can).
Druid/Favored Soul(man, this is warped).
Monk/Sorcerer(you can hide, but you can't run).
Monk/Shugenja(nobody will ever be safe again).
Druid/Spirit Shaman(oh, you are so ******).
Archivist/Scout(one word: ouch!).
Monk/Ninja(who ordered pizza?)
Hexblade/Soulknife(why am I bleeding?)


I listed all the ones off the top of my head that would be most promising without going into a PrC, and some have already been mentioned. Hope this helps.


----------



## Nyaricus

Wow, thanks everyone for the great replies! Some good food-for-thought in this thread 

cheers,
--N


----------



## glass

My Age of Worms group* has the following:

Cleric//Sorcerer
Druid//Barbarian (with one level of Ranger)
Rogue//Artificer
Wizard//Swordsage

As individuals, they are pretty nifty (although possibly not the most optimal combinations -Wizard/Warblade would have perhaps been better from a purely mechanical PoV because of the Int synergy), but as a group they work together really well. 

The swordsage stance that lets everybody flank is particularly handy. Both for the rogue (who can sneak attack more easily) and the barbarian (who usually rolls really low  ). That said, if he ever manages to roll higher than 5, the barbarian//druid is going to be a holy terror in a level or two when he gets wildshape.



glass.

* currently on hiatus -the plan is to do alternate AoW and ST on an adventure by adventure basis.


----------



## wildstarsreach

Duskblade/Rogue.

At 5th level and better with swift invisibility, you get you attack plas sneak attack plus any other spells that may have been precast or channeled.


----------



## master arminas

I know it is not the most powerful gestalt combo, but I really like Fighter/Monk.  Gives the monk increased BAB, HD, and --most important-- bonus feats.  Truely makes the monk a superlative combat guy.  And yes, I do realize that the armor proficiencies are wasted in this combo.

Arminas tar Valantil
Grand Master of the Order of the Ebon Rose


----------



## blargney the second

Dragonborn Goliath Druid||Fighter /Warshaper.  (Variants: PHB2's druid Shapeshift, Dragon Magic's Dragonscale Husk, UA's Reducing LA.)

You end up with full BAB, two good saves, spells, good HPs, decent skills, *monstrous* Str and Con when you shapeshift as a swift action, and you get to keep your dragonscale husk, powerful build, and breath weapon in shapeshift form.  Use a couple long-lasting druid buffs for extra fun.

Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Superior Unarmed Strike, Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike), Snap Kick, Multiattack.


----------



## wolfpunk

Maybe it isn't super powerful, but I am going to go with a Half-giant Paladin8/Cavalier 3//Cleric 12. I intend on focusing on mounted combat.

Considering on taking the varient favored enemy paladin from UA.


----------



## RigaMortus2

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> Aye, and the Pal/Sor is still mostly all there and still dangerous when the Greater Dispel bomb is dropped.  The Clr/Sor who was approximating it with Divine Power much less so.




That is what counter spelling is for...


----------



## RigaMortus2

Nifft said:
			
		

> *THOSE ARE ALMOST ALL THE SAME ACTION*. You get one Swift (aka quickened) action, one Standard action, and you can't use your Move action to cast any spell I know. (C'mon, someone gimmie a move-action spell!)




Quickened Spell (any) + Arcane Fusion + Celerity + Arcane Fusion = 8 spells in one round.

Cast a Quickened spell of your choice (doesn't matter how), use Arcane Fusion to cast a 1st-level spell and a 4th-level spell, declare the end of your turn. Before anyone else can act (or wait to interrupt another spellcaster), cast Celerity to gain another Standard Action, which you then use to repeat Arcane Fusion.

Celerity using your next round's swift action doesn't make any difference since you skip your next turn due to the dazed effect anyways. It is one heck of a Sorcerer nuke.

And that is just what a single classes Sorcerer can do...



			
				Nifft said:
			
		

> _Time stop_ isn't a reliable tactic until 17th level, and even then, the things you can do with it are limited. _Schism_ is nice, and will actually net you a manifesting action (at -6 levels), but is obviously limited to Psions.




I am responding to the OP, who never mentioned levels, stats or any other requirement for the "best gestalt character".  So what if Time Stop isn't reliable until 17th level?



			
				Nifft said:
			
		

> _Hustle_? What use would that be? It costs you your Swift action (which you could have used to cast a useful spell) and gives you an extra Move action (which is useless for a caster).




A Move Action is not very useful to a *spellcaster*, which is true.  But look at how you are obtaining that Move Action....  (Probably) via Expanded Knowledge as a Psion.  So if you are already going the Psion/Cleric route (which you would be if you had Hustle) then you would have a Psionic Focus, which you have to expend on certain Psionic feats to enhance your Psionic powers.  Which can only be retained as a Full Round Action OR...  (wait for it)...  As a MOVE ACTION via Psychic Meditation.  This will allow you to apply multiple Psionic feats to your powers 2 - 3 times per round (Expend Psionic Focus 1st time + Move Action to get it back + Expend Psionic Focus 2nd time + Swift Action Hustle to get another Move Action + Move Action from Hustle to get Psionic Focus Back + Expend Psionic Focus 3rd time.)



			
				Nifft said:
			
		

> _Polymorph_ doesn't grant you any (Su) abilities. Look at the spell closely, especially after the errata.




Who cares?  Obviously you would not cast Polymorph if you were worried about using (Su) abilities.  I also mentioned Shapechange in there as well...



			
				Nifft said:
			
		

> You can't use two Quickened, Swift or Immediate actions in the same round.




True.  But you can use two (or more) spells that require a Swift or Immediate to use per round, simply by casting certain other spells before hand (look up Arcane Fusion).



			
				Nifft said:
			
		

> It's easy to cast 2 spells per round. Telepaths and other Psions who blow three feats can do 3 every round, but at a very high power point cost.




Yeah, but 8 or more is even more fun (see above)



			
				Nifft said:
			
		

> Two meaningful actions per round is the limit I'm talking about.




I would consider 8+ spells (each of 4th level or lower) per round quite meaningful.



			
				Nifft said:
			
		

> (Move isn't nearly as meaningful for a Wizard or Sorcerer. There aren't many "full round action" spells, just standard and 1 round.)




Right, but it is for a Psion (see above)



			
				Nifft said:
			
		

> Pick a secondary class that doesn't require that same resource.
> 
> Cheers, -- N




Not if you want to be "the most powerful" gestalt like the OP asked for.  Maybe if you want to be second to "the most powerful".


----------



## Jondor_Battlehammer

Fighter/Tempest/Whirling Dervish + Scout. If you gotta move, may as well get AC and bonus damage.


----------



## Nyarlathotep

In my SCAP campaign one of the players is using a Scout/Sorcerer and that seems to be working pretty well.


----------



## glass

wolfpunk said:
			
		

> Maybe it isn't super powerful, but I am going to go with a Half-giant Paladin8/Cavalier 3//Cleric 12. I intend on focusing on mounted combat.



Why have you only got 11 levels on one side of the progression and 12 on the other?


glass.


----------



## Hypersmurf

glass said:
			
		

> Why have you only got 11 levels on one side of the progression and 12 on the other?




I assume he's counting LA on one side of the progression.

-Hyp.


----------



## Nifft

RigaMortus2 said:
			
		

> Not if you want to be "the most powerful" gestalt like the OP asked for.  Maybe if you want to be second to "the most powerful".




Dead = worse than second. Mid to low HP, split-stat casting (meaning you have even less left over for Con & Dex), mid to low BAB, and no defensive class features ... you're making a glass cannon.

- - -

Anyway, I feel any further response I could give would involve points previously mentioned. Seeing as there are a bunch of other posters in this thread who disagree with your position, perhaps one of them would enjoy discussing this further with you? 'Cause I think I'm done with this.

Good gaming, -- N


----------



## Nifft

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> I assume he's counting LA on one side of the progression.




I take it all back. THIS is the most powerful Gestalt (and technically illegal, I think). All LA and templates on one side, then the class you actually want to play on the other. 

Half-Ogre / Half-Dragon / Half-Celestial / Half-Minotaur / Mineral Warrior / ... Half-Fey?
 + plus +
Barbarian 20

"Your strength bonus is *what*?!"
"And I have wings!"

Cheers, -- N


----------



## Quartz

master arminas said:
			
		

> I know it is not the most powerful gestalt combo, but I really like Fighter/Monk.  Gives the monk increased BAB, HD, and --most important-- bonus feats.  Truely makes the monk a superlative combat guy.  And yes, I do realize that the armor proficiencies are wasted in this combo.




Have a look at how many of the monk's special abilities can be used in armour.


----------



## szilard

The below is, more or less, the build I played in an incredibly-overpowered game. We were allowed normal multiclassing with gestalt but there were serious limits on racial HD and LAs:

1 - Sorcerer 1/Human Paragon 1
2 - Monk 1/Human Paragon 2
3 - Monk 2/Human Paragon 3
4 - Sorcerer 2/Fighter 1
5 - Sorcerer 3/Fighter 2
6 - Sorcerer 4/Dragon Disciple 1
15 - Sorcerer 13/Dragon Disciple 10
16 - Sorcerer 14/Paladin 1
17 - Sorcerer 15/Paladin 2
18 - Sorcerer 16/Paladin 3
19 - Sorcerer 17/Paladin 4
20 - Sorcerer 18/Marshall 1

With Human Paragon and Dragon Disciple, his strength and charisma were through the roof. With his natural armor, charisma bonus, and ascetic mage, he had a great AC.
With Arcane Strike, Rhino Rush, Power Attack, Smite Evil, and Pounce (via shapechange to a Leonal), he could deal out ~1000 hp of damage in a round, if he had to.

-Stuart


----------



## Cactot

*?*

nobody mentioned druid/psion or druid/psychic warrior??
druid/wizard is great, but druid/psionicxxx is far more flexible

plus, does natural spell worth with arcane spells?


----------



## blargney the second

I'm making a kalashtar divine mind/wilder for my girlfriend right now.  There's a remarkable amount of synergy between the two classes.  Divine Mind gives some very nice auras, decent durability, good powers & abilities from mantles, and Divine Grace.


----------



## Hypersmurf

Cactot said:
			
		

> nobody mentioned druid/psion or druid/psychic warrior??




Psychic Warrior has the advantage of being Wis-based, so no MAD.

-Hyp.


----------



## Nifft

Cactot said:
			
		

> nobody mentioned druid/psion or druid/psychic warrior??
> druid/wizard is great, but druid/psionicxxx is far more flexible
> 
> plus, does natural spell worth with arcane spells?




Druid // Psychic Rogue -- skills, evasion, sneak attack, and utility powers that you can't duplicate with the Druid spell list -- but I still think Druid // Rogue is mostly better.

Druid // Monk 6 / Psychic Warrior 14 -- mostly for the mad bonus feats  but there are a few powers that just can't be duplicated by any spell, such as _claws of the vampire_, which are quite handy for the Druid.

Cheers, -- N


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## EvilGM

Our rules are slightly different - you can take prestige classes on both sides at the same time, just not the crazy double ones like ultimate magus/eldritch xxx/etc. (however, you do need to find one to train you first).

In my current campaign we have the following:

Human Dread Necromancer//Warlock
Human Cleric//Favored Soul
Human Dragon Shaman//Dragonfire Adept/Fighter
Elf Archivist//Wizard (Evoker)
Elf Ranger//Rogue/Ghost-faced Killer
Half-Ogre Barbarian//Fighter (going into WarHulk)
Human Wizard (Abjurer)/Master Abjurer//Sorcerer/Incantatrix

In a new campaign starting soon we'll have the following:

Human Wu Jen//Wizard (Enchantress)
Human Wizard (Abjurer)//Duskblade
Human Fighter//Rogue
and 4 others the players have not submitted yet

The one I'm really looking forward to playing is Wizard (Abjurer)=> Master Abjurer=> Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil=> Argent Savant // Duskblade=> Abjurant Champion=> ?

Half-Ogre Fighter=> War Hulk // Barbarian=> Frenzied Berserker is pretty nasty as well.


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## wildstarsreach

EvilGM said:
			
		

> Our rules are slightly different - you can take prestige classes on both sides at the same time, just not the crazy double ones like ultimate magus/eldritch xxx/etc. (however, you do need to find one to train you first).
> 
> In my current campaign we have the following:
> 
> Human Dread Necromancer//Warlock
> Human Cleric//Favored Soul
> Human Dragon Shaman//Dragonfire Adept/Fighter
> Elf Archivist//Wizard (Evoker)
> Elf Ranger//Rogue/Ghost-faced Killer
> Half-Ogre Barbarian//Fighter (going into WarHulk)
> Human Wizard (Abjurer)/Master Abjurer//Sorcerer/Incantatrix
> 
> In a new campaign starting soon we'll have the following:
> 
> Human Wu Jen//Wizard (Enchantress)
> Human Wizard (Abjurer)//Duskblade
> Human Fighter//Rogue
> and 4 others the players have not submitted yet
> 
> The one I'm really looking forward to playing is Wizard (Abjurer)=> Master Abjurer=> Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil=> Argent Savant // Duskblade=> Abjurant Champion=> ?
> 
> Half-Ogre Fighter=> War Hulk // Barbarian=> Frenzied Berserker is pretty nasty as well.




Abjurant Champion really doesn't work with the Duskblade since you are limited to the Duskblade spell list.


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## dmchucky

Psion/Incarnate
Binder/Totemist
Warlock/Sorcerer

For Starters  (Incarnum is great for gestalt builds)


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