# Optimization help for Warlock/Cleric



## SnowHeart (Apr 15, 2009)

I could use some assistance building a replacement/back-up PC for an epic-level campaign I'm playing in.  We're running into a good mix of opponents of varying HD and CRs, but one issue that keeps coming up is high spell resistance.  My current brain storm is a Warlock/Cleric build, using the warlock abilities for dealing damage and the cleric abilities to buff the warlock and allies, and debuff opponents.  Other PCs include a Scout, Knight, Dread Necromancer (all single-class), Ranger/Order of the Bow Initiate, and a Mystic Theurge.  The Dread Necromancer has a fair number of undead that are used as melee combatants.  Pretty much all the books are fair game.  Anyway...

Warlock 7 / Cleric of Orcus 4 / Eldritch Disciple 10
STR 9 (15 from Belt of Giant Strength)
DEX 10
CON 10
INT 12
WIS 16 (22 from Periapt of Wisdom)
CHA 22 (28 from Cloak of Charisma)

Feats
Precise Shot
Weapon Focus (Ranged Touch)
Noncombatant [Flaw]
Unreactive [Flaw]
Spell Penetration
Arcane Might
Improved Toughness
Ability Focus (Eldritch Blast)
Practiced Spellcaster (Warlock)
Quickened Spell-like Ability (Eldritch Spear)
Undead Leadership
Empower Spell-Like Ability (Vitriolic Blast)
Epic Eldritch Blast

Invocations
Dark Ones Own Luck
Eldritch Spear
See the Unseen
Eldritch Chain
Fell Flight
Voracious Dispelling
Chilling Tentacles
Repelling Blast
Vitriolic Blast
Utterdark Blast

Suggestions on gear would also be appreciated.  We're using the Wealth by Level charts from the DMG, and gear from the Epic Level Handbook and Magic Item Compendium is allowed.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Apr 15, 2009)

If you drop the str item from +6 to +4, you can get a con +4 item and have spare change to boot.  IMHO, con 10 is WAAAAY too low to survive with.

An amulet of retributive healing is only like 2000 gp (MIC), and allows you 3/day as a swift action to heal yourself an equal amount ot that you just healed an ally.  Let me put it another way: it's 2k for a free _heal_ spell (or something even more potet, maybe) 3/day.  Get it!  If you're using MIC, that means you can attach your wisdom +6 to it at no extra cost, per the new item rules.

Feats:
Unless it's a pre-req for something, drop the Weapon Focus, it'll almost never matter for ranged touch.
The spell-like feats: These can be chosen for Eldritch Blast in general, you don't need to specify the essence or blast shape invocation you're going to use them with.  It'd have to be an invocation independant of EB to require that.  For example, the Charm invocation.
Improved Toughness: With a higher con as above, may not need this.

You have a ton of charisma, and thus lots of turn undead.  Consider investing more in Divine feats.  A lot of people like Divine Metamagic + either Quicken Spell or Persistent Spell.  I like Divine Spell Power, which with your huge turn check bonus (charisma) means you can easily add +3 or 4 to your CL many times a day.  Divine Shield adds cha to your shield AC, also worth a look.

Spells: If you're not getting any +dex items at all, and assuming you're wearing light armor (warlock restrictions), note Divine Grace from Spell Compendium.  Level 5 Cleric spell, either min. or round/level, either way, basically a single combat spell.  It gives a +10 enhancement to dex.  That's +5 to AC, your ranged touch attacks, and more!

Domains: Try to get something with Time Stop, both to use early combat to put up all your many buff spells, and possibly also mid-combat, after enough are taken down by dispels.  Just a thought.


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## SnowHeart (Apr 15, 2009)

Thanks dude.  I was wondering about the Con/HP issue.  Purchase prices for items is really not so much an issue at this point (nearly 1mil gold to spend), but I do start running into issues with slots for items.

I'll dump the Weapon Focus feat.  You're right.  And looking at the Divine Metamagic feats is a good idea.  I browsed them but didn't look too closely.

As for armor, I was thinking of a mithril breastplate (acts as light armor, and he's got the proficiency from the cleric levels).


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## milo (Apr 15, 2009)

To help with the SR issue you could get a wand of Assay Spell Resistance.  +10 for 7 rounds with the base wand at 21000 gp.  I would emphasize Dexterity more than strength with the warlock.  You might want to look at the Hellfire Warlock PRC from Fiendish Codex II.  It looks like you can get into Eldritch Disciple at clc4 and warlock 1.  When you are done with Elritch Disciple you could do 3 levels of Hellfire Warlock and finish up with warlock.  It would give you an extra 6D6 with your eldritch blast.   Chausible of fell power is a must for any warlock, I think it is 36k for a greater and it adds 2D6 to your eldritch blast.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Apr 15, 2009)

Another thing, if those stats were chosen: I'm tempted to say wis is more important than cha, so reverse those unless you're set on it the way they are.  In any case, try to find as many uses for that huge cha as possible.  Most involve feats or class features, but there are some items that benefit from a high charisma.  For example, a stunning surge (or just stunning?) weapon from MIC can actually have a respectable save DC, because it uses 10 +1/2 character level +cha modifier to calculate.

The poster asking about required entry level reminded me, did your DM make up an epic progression for Eldritch Disciple?  If not, you won't long be able to support both EB damage AND cleric CL.



SnowHeart said:


> Thanks dude.  I was wondering about the Con/HP issue.  Purchase prices for items is really not so much an issue at this point (nearly 1mil gold to spend), but I do start running into issues with slots for items.




I was working on the assumption items had all already been decided, and you had no spare money.  As for slots, get str in the hands slot, con in the belt slot. Problem solved.  Any extraneous stuff you might want, like amulet of retributive healing, you're allowed to attach stat booters to at no extra cost (in the DMG, it'd make you pay something like +50% to add extra things to the same slot).  If you decide to get dex, you can use the boots slot.  You can also get charisma and resistance bonus on saves on either vest or cloak slot, so no need to choose one over the other.



SnowHeart said:


> As for armor, I was thinking of a mithril breastplate (acts as light armor, and he's got the proficiency from the cleric levels).




That'd leave room for +5 dex to AC, perfect for aforementioned spell...   It's also probably the best choice, yeah.


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## Drowbane (Apr 15, 2009)

A class idea.

Warlock 9 / Hellfire Warlock 2 / Ur Priest 2 / Eldritch Disciple 8 (max caster progression for Ur Priest)

This would give you 9th level cleric spells (fewer, and not as high on CL) and Invocations as a 19th lvl Warlock... and the start of Hellfire, which is pretty much the only good Warlock-specific PrC.

Mortalbane (BoVD) is a nice feat for any warlock.  5/day you can add +2d6 dmg to your EB (and any other damaging SLAs you happen to have), and it can be taken multiple times.  Just don't Mortalbane-Blast undead, constructs, or outsiders


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## SnowHeart (Apr 16, 2009)

Drowbane and Milo, those are good class suggestions.  I'm going to try playing around with that.

SotS, thanks for the suggestions.  I'm anxious about dropping Strength but it's probably silly -- more of am emphasis on surviving to escape from melee makes more sense, and the Dex and Con match up with that idea whereas the Str really just helps him carry more (meh).

Thanks guys.


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## milo (Apr 16, 2009)

If you are worried about carrying things then get a bag of holding type 4 and a Heward's handy haversack.  Both of those combined are less than a +6 strength item and you can carry a lot more with them.


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## rgard (Apr 16, 2009)

Drowbane said:


> A class idea.
> 
> Warlock 9 / Hellfire Warlock 2 / Ur Priest 2 / Eldritch Disciple 8 (max caster progression for Ur Priest)
> 
> ...




Sweet.  I like this build.


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## irdeggman (Apr 16, 2009)

Some notes:

Practiced Spellcaster has no effect on a warlock. They are not a spellcaster, even though they have a caster level. They do not cast spells.


What is the feat Epic Eldrich Blast?  If it is a general epic feat you qualify, if it depends on a certain class level you don’t – you are not an epic level warlock (not 20+ levels of warlock) 


You do qualify for battlecaster so with each application you can increase the type of armor you can wear without suffering ASF. Could be useful if you want to increase you AC without buffing.


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## SnowHeart (Apr 16, 2009)

irdeggman said:


> Some notes:
> 
> Practiced Spellcaster has no effect on a warlock. They are not a spellcaster, even though they have a caster level. They do not cast spells.
> 
> ...



Interesting note on the Practiced Spellcaster issue.  The mechanics are confusing and the errata for the class didn't quite help me clear it up.  I'll look it over again.  Honestly, I was thinking of swapping it for Cleric at one point anyway, but now I'm looking at Drowbane's build and might just dump the feat entirely.

The epic Eldritch Blast is from an article on WotC's site for epic warlock builds with a series of feats.  It does not require (at least the way I read it) 20 levels of warlock.  It just gives an extra 1d6 to the blast.  However, that was with an assumption that the practiced spellcaster feat applied, which would have taken him to an effective level (with the original build) of 21, so maybe in the absence of that the feat wouldn't be available anyway.  Oh well.  Like I said, Drowbane's build is interesting to me; I looked over the excerpts on the WotC site and ordered the Fiendish Codex II last night.

P.S., Someone had asked how the abilities were generated... they are from a 32-point buy with +5 points from 20 HD.


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## irdeggman (Apr 16, 2009)

SnowHeart said:


> Interesting note on the Practiced Spellcaster issue.  The mechanics are confusing and the errata for the class didn't quite help me clear it up.  I'll look it over again.  Honestly, I was thinking of swapping it for Cleric at one point anyway, but now I'm looking at Drowbane's build and might just dump the feat entirely.






From the FAQ



> *What effect would the Practiced Spellcaster feat (CAr 82) have on a warlock?*
> 
> A strict reading of the feat’s benefit indicates that the warlock would gain no benefit from Practiced Spellcaster. The warlock is not a spellcasting class for normal purposes—the exception noted on page 18 of CAr applies only to prestige class benefits—and thus it could not be selected as the class to be affected by this feat.


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## rgard (Apr 17, 2009)

irdeggman said:


> From the FAQ




We HR'd 'Practiced Invoker.'


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## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 17, 2009)

First, Precise Shot has a prereq of Point Blank Shot, which I don't see on your list.

May I suggest that instead of dropping WF (ranged touch), you _add _Reach Spell as a feat?  That will let you turn touch spells into ranged touch spells...and with your WF (Ranged Touch), you can use them accurately.

Thus you won't only be zapping foes with your Eldritch Blasts, you could be buffing your allies as well!

(While I'm in here, though, in which books do you find Quickened Spell-like Ability and Empower Spell-Like Ability?  My books are in storage, and its relevant to a question that came up recently.)


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## Theroc (Apr 17, 2009)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> (While I'm in here, though, in which books do you find Quickened Spell-like Ability and Empower Spell-Like Ability?  My books are in storage, and its relevant to a question that came up recently.)




Sorry, I don't have anything helpful to add on the main topic, but I can answer Danny.

I found those two Feats in the D20SRD under the category of "Monster Feats"


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## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 17, 2009)

(Thanks, Theroc)


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## roguerouge (Apr 17, 2009)

Why not take the Extra Invocation feat?


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## irdeggman (Apr 17, 2009)

Another feat chain suggestion..

The heritage feat chain from Complete Mage.

The Fiendish heritage chain looks to be the best match.

Fiendish Herititage {a prerequisite for the rest of the chain of feats, must be evil} - +4 to Fort saves against poison, +1 to saving throws against spells or effects produced by good creatures.

Fiendish Power {This is the one you want to have, but need Fiendish Heritage as a prerequisite} -  +1 caster level and saves for evil spells *and warlock invocations.*

Fiendish Resistance - gain fire and acid resistance equal to 3 x number of feats that have Fiendish Heritage as prequisite. This stacks with almost all other sources, except for magic and magic items (specifically it stacks with the resistances granted by class).

Fiendish Presence {additional prequisite 6th level}  - gains teh following 1/day: cause fear, detect thoughts, suggestion

Fiendish Legacy {additional prerequisite 9th level} - gain the following 1/day: teleport (self only plus objects carried),  Summmon Monster V (fiendish creatures only), unholy blight.

As a minimum I would take Fiendish Heritage and Fiendish Power.


There is also the fey chain (prequisite of nonlawful alignment)

Heritage gets +3 to will saves against enchantment spells

Power gets plus to enchantment spells and warlock invocations

Fey skin (instead of fiendish resistance) - DR/cold iron equal to number of fey heritage feats (also stacks like the resistance does)

Presence - gets charm monster, deep slumber, disguise self

Legacy gets - confusion, dimension door, summon nature's ally V

Something interesting is that nothing states you can't have heritage feats from multiple paths, if you can afford to spend the feats that is.


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## SnowHeart (Apr 17, 2009)

Guys (and gals), you rock.  Thanks for the advice.  Hopefully I'll have the FCII soon and will post the revised stats based on an Ur-Priest/Hellfire Warlock/Eldritch Disciple build.  Definitely appreciate the help and advice.  

Edit:  Ran into a small issue, although it's probably something that is up to the DM.  The Eldritch Theurge has a special requirement that you must worship a chaotic or evil deity, yet the Ur-Priest description is of one that despises and hates gods.  There's no game-mechanic requirement that the Ur-Priest has "no god" but I think it's implied.  :-/


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## rgard (Apr 18, 2009)

SnowHeart said:


> Guys (and gals), you rock.  Thanks for the advice.  Hopefully I'll have the FCII soon and will post the revised stats based on an Ur-Priest/Hellfire Warlock/Eldritch Disciple build.  Definitely appreciate the help and advice.
> 
> Edit:  Ran into a small issue, although it's probably something that is up to the DM.  The Eldritch Theurge has a special requirement that you must worship a chaotic or evil deity, yet the Ur-Priest description is of one that despises and hates gods.  There's no game-mechanic requirement that the Ur-Priest has "no god" but I think it's implied.  :-/




For the issue...You can use the 'Adaptation' part of the class description:

"Secret societies of Ur-Priests could exit for the express purpose of elevatating (or re-elevating) someone or something to godhood."  

The someone or something could be the chaotic or evil deity worshipped.  I guess it would work best with 're-elevating'.  That should help you reconcile the two requirements.

The quote above comes from the Complete Divine version of the Ur-Priest.  The Book of Vile Darkness version may be worded differently.

Thanks,
Rich


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## SnowHeart (Apr 18, 2009)

rgard said:


> For the issue...You can use the 'Adaptation' part of the class description:
> 
> "Secret societies of Ur-Priests could exit for the express purpose of elevatating (or re-elevating) someone or something to godhood."
> 
> The someone or something could be the chaotic or evil deity worshipped.  I guess it would work best with 're-elevating'.  That should help you reconcile the two requirements.




Interesting.  That could work perfectly.  One member of the party is a Cleric of Orcus who, as I understand it, is not yet quite a god but only a demon prince on the path to ascension.  So, that might work perfectly.  Thanks Rich.


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## rgard (Apr 18, 2009)

SnowHeart said:


> Interesting.  That could work perfectly.  One member of the party is a Cleric of Orcus who, as I understand it, is not yet quite a god but only a demon prince on the path to ascension.  So, that might work perfectly.  Thanks Rich.





You are most welcome.  It was enlightened self-interest that prompted me to look up the text.  I'm wanting to play that build myself.  

I'm leaning toward one of the Cthulhu dieties.  

Enjoy!
Rich


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