# New D&D Adventure Reveal On 17th May at 'The Descent'



## pedr (Apr 4, 2019)

WotC has announced the reveal of the next D&D adventure hardcover, which will be unveiled at '*The Descent*' in LA on Friday 17th May at 4pm PDT (midnight BST). 





​
D&D Live 2019: The Descent will be a celebration of the Dungeons & Dragons community as they gather to learn about the latest storyline through an immersive entertainment experience. Following last year’s award-winning Stream of Many Eyes, this year’s D&D event will give fans in Los Angeles the chance to play through an epic adventure designed to plunge players into a captivating story. The three-day extravaganza will include a sneak-peak at upcoming products, signings with D&D luminaries, musical performances, unique giveaways, tons of amazing cosplay and of course a whole bunch of twenty-sided dice rolling critical hits! Check out dnd.wizards.com/dndlive2019 for more information on guests, badges and programming schedule.

Fans around the world can tune in to twitch.tv/dnd starting at 4:00pm PT on Friday, May 17 to watch D&D Live 2019: The Descent for new product unveils and our cast of all-stars playing Dungeons & Dragons live. In addition to the main channel, D&D community YouTubers, streamers, podcasters and other D&D personalities have been invited to share their original content from four mini-studios on Saturday, May 18 and Sunday, May 19. 

On Friday and Saturday night, performers like Matthew Lillard, Mica Burton, Anna Prosser, Patrick Rothfuss and Dungeon Masters Chris Perkins, Jeremy Crawford and Kate Welch will play a two-part D&D story in front of a live audience on the main stage. A rock concert celebration featuring and directed by Chris Funk from the Decemberists will close out the weekend on Sunday, May 19 at 6pm PT live on twitch.tv/dnd.

A limited number of 3-day badges for D&D Live 2019: The Descent will go on sale for $300 on April 9 at 10am PT. Here’s everything you get with a 3-day badge:

·       Witness the unveiling of the new D&D storyline on Friday evening, live from the studio audience
·       Play a 3-hour session of a D&D Adventurers League Epic previewing elements from the new storyline on Saturday or Sunday
·       Grab a D&D swag bag including merch from D&D partners and an advance copy of Ghosts of Saltmarsh
·       Watch D&D played live by the biggest D&D personalities in the studio audience on Friday and Saturday nights
·       Mingle with D&D partners & other characters in the story-themed marketplace area & participate in the cosplay storyline interspersed throughout the event
·       Catch the live music performance celebrating D&D from artists assembled by Chris Funk on Sunday night to close out D&D Live 2019: The Descent

Join the fun at #DnDLive2019 in character, maybe come dressed in a costume of a favorite tiefling warlock, an elven bard, or come as you are! An improvised story led by cosplay performers could result in some exclusive loot if you complete the quest. Gourmet food trucks, exclusive D&D swag you can’t get anywhere else, plus the chance to interact with D&D game designers, artists and performers round out the weekend-long celebration of Dungeons & Dragons at D&D Live 2019: The Descent!

Download wallpaper of the art for The Descent created by Fiona Staples (Saga) here!

For more information including details on D&D partners, luminaries, and performers coming to D&D Live 2019: The Descent head to dnd.wizards.com/dndlive2019! More details on additional guests and D&D groups will be coming soon!


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## The-Magic-Sword (Apr 4, 2019)

We can guess they might also be revealing if we're going to get any non-adventure supplemental material this year as well, as the Stream of Many Eyes was where Xanathar's was announced. I suspect that while it may not be spelljammer, we're absolutely going to a new setting for this next one (for real this time guys, I promise!) I wouldn't be surprised to see Dark Sun given that they've had psionics in the works for a hot minute by this point. I also expect that we'll see some combination of the september and november release be devoted to a combination of a new adventure and source book for the place the adventure takes place in. 

Given the Descent title, it almost makes it sound like another dungeon crawl, but we just got mad mage- and we've already done the descent into madness motif, I'm about ready to call it as a planescape esque adventure taking us to the nine hells, especially looking at that illustration of an angel descending toward demonic hands. This is suggestive that it would be planescape, rather than Dark Sun, which would make a lot of sense with the hints that they've been dropping.


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## dave2008 (Apr 4, 2019)

The-Magic-Sword said:


> We can guess they might also be revealing if we're going to get any non-adventure supplemental material this year as well, as the Stream of Many Eyes was where Xanathar's was announced. I suspect that while it may not be spelljammer, we're absolutely going to a new setting for this next one (for real this time guys, I promise!) I wouldn't be surprised to see Dark Sun given that they've had psionics in the works for a hot minute by this point. I also expect that we'll see some combination of the september and november release be devoted to a combination of a new adventure and source book for the place the adventure takes place in.
> 
> Given the Descent title, it almost makes it sound like another dungeon crawl, but we just got mad mage- and we've already done the descent into madness motif, I'm about ready to call it as a planescape esque adventure taking us to the nine hells, especially looking at that illustration of an angel descending toward demonic hands. This is suggestive that it would be planescape, rather than Dark Sun, which would make a lot of sense with the hints that they've been dropping.




From the wallpaper it looks more like a Heaven and Hell type adventure - or maybe just a "descent" into the 9 hells.  It would nice if it included the rest of the Lords of the Nine.


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## Morrus (Apr 4, 2019)

That art certainly makes me think of A Paladin in Hell.





The 2E adventure was written by Monte Cook in 1998. The image is from the AD&D 1E Player's Handbook.


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## Hussar (Apr 5, 2019)

Why does that blindfolded angel thing seem so familiar?  Is that a Magic the Gathering thing?


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## GarrettKP (Apr 5, 2019)

8 devil hands reaching out for an angel? And Chris Perkins and Greg Tito just did a lore you should know about the Nine Hells and talked a lot about Zariel, who also got a stat block in Tome of Foes? I'm thinking a Blood War story with a Zariel showdown is incoming!

Tweeted my guess to Tito. He was not amused. Think I may be on to something. 

https://twitter.com/Gregtito/status/1113946939383373824


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## GrissTheGnome (Apr 5, 2019)

Hussar said:


> Why does that blindfolded angel thing seem so familiar?  Is that a Magic the Gathering thing?



 The art style reminds me of a few Magic angels, but none of them quite fit. The only MtG Angels with 4 wings that are blind are from Zendikar. But they are very specifically blinded by their own Halo's, not cloth.


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## GrissTheGnome (Apr 5, 2019)

GarrettKP said:


> 8 devil hands reaching out for an angel? And Chris Perkins and Greg Tito just did a lore you should know about the Nine Hells and talked a lot about Zariel, who also got a stat block in Tome of Foes? I'm thinking a Blood War story with a Zariel showdown is incoming!




Looking at the full art.

http://media.wizards.com/2019/dnd/images/jkaxjjxlqxqfds.jpg

A few of those arms are pretty clearly from the same individual. The reddish arms near the top, also the more feminine arms with gold jewelry near the bottom. So the number might not be a spoiler.


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## dave2008 (Apr 5, 2019)

Morrus said:


> That art certainly makes me think of A Paladin in Hell.




Me too!


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## vecna00 (Apr 5, 2019)

I was 100% thinking it could be a riff on Paladin in Hell, which would be awesome.


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## generic (Apr 5, 2019)

Yes! This is going to be astounding, I can just feel it in my nostrils.


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## generic (Apr 5, 2019)

All jokes aside, I'm excited for this product.


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## Demetrios1453 (Apr 5, 2019)

That illustration with an angel and fiendish hands really seems to point towards something planar. Should, like normal, we see two products in the fall (and the description definitely mentions "products" in the plural), I'm leaning towards the normal September release being an adventure (presumably planar in nature) and the November release being a riff on the various Manuals of the Planes/Planescape. Should the adventure focus on the Nine Hells, that would likely mean we'd get more or less a guide to the plane in that book, opening up the large amount of room the Hells normally take up for other places in the sourcebook.

I would be quite happy about this if it should come to pass...


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## Guest 6801328 (Apr 5, 2019)

Hussar said:


> Why does that blindfolded angel thing seem so familiar?  Is that a Magic the Gathering thing?




It's Illidan Stormrage...

 [MENTION=1]Morrus[/MENTION] I like imagining that the artist is pleased you noticed the reference.


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## SkateboardingRaptors (Apr 5, 2019)

I remember hearing on a podcast that joe manganiello (I believe Chris hardwick’s podcast but it was a long time ago) that he was guest writing  on a product that he expected to be released in 2019.  I suspect this hell diving adventure is it.


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## Prakriti (Apr 5, 2019)

Hussar said:


> Why does that blindfolded angel thing seem so familiar?  Is that a Magic the Gathering thing?



Lady Justice is usually depicted with a blindfold.


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## Elderbrain (Apr 5, 2019)

Ohhhhhhh, I hope we are getting stats for the rest of the Archdevils. Pleeeeeeeeese?


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## qstor (Apr 5, 2019)

Maybe its Planescape related


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## Bitbrain (Apr 5, 2019)

Hussar said:


> Why does that blindfolded angel thing seem so familiar?  Is that a Magic the Gathering thing?




Maybe it is supposed to represent how "true justice is blind"?


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## Kramodlog (Apr 5, 2019)

Angel? The ears, armor, gender, sparkles tell me eladrin.


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## Joseph Nardo (Apr 5, 2019)

Between this upcoming announcement and stream and ghosts of saltmarsh, waiting for May is going to be very painful


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## jhilahd (Apr 5, 2019)

I was thinking Avariel, but my first thought was Zariel, one of the Lords of the Nine.
But, I too, hope it's not just another crawl.


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## MechaTarrasque (Apr 5, 2019)

A 9-Hells based adventure sounds good to me.  We have had devils show up in AP's before, but I think it is time for a devil-focused AP.  Whether that is an angel, a celestial eladrin, or a miscolored trumpet archon, I can always use more celestials.


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## Ralif Redhammer (Apr 5, 2019)

I would absolutely love an extraplanar romp for the next big adventure. And after the rage of demons, I think it's certainly time for the devils to get their due.

Also, that art by Fiona Staples is pretty darn awesome!


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## DMZ2112 (Apr 5, 2019)

I am envious of all the optimism in this thread.  I see no similarities at all to _A Paladin in Hell_, and the combination of double wings, blindness, and femininity is a clear nod to the angels of _Magic: the Gathering_, to me.  I'm hard pressed to come up with a D&D analog for whatever this creature is.

I'm reminded that the cover image for _Guildpact_, the second set of the Ravnica block, was an Angel of Despair.


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## grimslade (Apr 5, 2019)

Some of those arms appear to be in shackles, not bracelets. Maybe a revolt in the Hells? The Lords of the 9 diverting the denizens of the abyss to attack the Higher Planes? Could this just be an Eladrin Vengeance Paladin going ham on her Dark Seldarine and Formorian foes? I like any of the options, but this would tie back to Mordies Tome of Foes if it were planar, just as Waterdeep tied back to Xanathar's.


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## Elon Tusk (Apr 5, 2019)

grimslade said:


> Some of those arms appear to be in shackles, not bracelets. Maybe a revolt in the Hells? The Lords of the 9 diverting the denizens of the abyss to attack the Higher Planes? Could this just be an Eladrin Vengeance Paladin going ham on her Dark Seldarine and Formorian foes? I like any of the options, but this would tie back to Mordies Tome of Foes if it were planar, just as Waterdeep tied back to Xanathar's.




There seems to be 2 versions of the image if you look on the link to the wallpaper, one has an arm with shackles and the other one doesn't:

View attachment 105727

View attachment 105728


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## Weird Dave (Apr 5, 2019)

Definitely seems planar focused given the imagery and ancillary content produced recently. As a consumer I absolutely hope that's the case, but as a DMsGuild creator I'm apprehensive. I've been working on the Codex of the Infinite Planes series for a year now, and I'm 15 volumes of a total 26 planned each one covering a plane of existence in the Great Wheel cosmology (take a look if you haven't already!). I have to be careful to tiptoe around Planescape so it would be cool not to have to do that, but if they released a full Manual of the Planes type book it's possible my series will get overshadowed. Oh well. It's also possible my products will be the perfect companion for such content!


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## dwayne (Apr 6, 2019)

It could be an adventure path, and the city of doors may be a starting point and going into the 9 hells or maybe multiple planes and a primer to the city of door and planescape in general. Maybe to see if anyone will bite and if it may warrant more releases in the setting. But yes, i can see them priming darksun for a revamp roll out at some point down the road.


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## SkidAce (Apr 6, 2019)

Weird Dave said:


> Definitely seems planar focused given the imagery and ancillary content produced recently. As a consumer I absolutely hope that's the case, but as a DMsGuild creator I'm apprehensive. I've been working on the Codex of the Infinite Planes series for a year now, and I'm 15 volumes of a total 26 planned each one covering a plane of existence in the Great Wheel cosmology (take a look if you haven't already!). I have to be careful to tiptoe around Planescape so it would be cool not to have to do that, but if they released a full Manual of the Planes type book it's possible my series will get overshadowed. Oh well. It's also possible my products will be the perfect companion for such content!




/waves at Dave


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## Immortal Sun (Apr 6, 2019)

Kramodlog said:


> Angel? The ears, armor, gender, sparkles tell me eladrin.




Yeah as a long time MTG player, there are _style_ similarities, but given the number of quality artists MTG works with, it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone if they do art for D&D as well.

However, _most_ MTG angels are _obviously_ female, many to the point of being overly sexualized.

So, that is all to say: I got Eladrin vibes from the art as well.  I suspect the "wings" might be related to a spell.


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## The Big BZ (Apr 6, 2019)

Latest FB post says the AL Epic gives players a chance to save the Forgotten Realms:

More immersive and interactive than ever. The fun at D&D Live 2019: The Descent will include the D&D Adventurers League for the first time! Attendees can play in an EPIC adventure of 25 tables collaborating to save the Forgotten Realms! It's Dungeons & Dragons like you've never experienced before. Learn more about this May 17-19 event celebrating the next D&D storyline and how YOU can join: dnd.wizards.com/dndlive2019.


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## gyor (Apr 6, 2019)

Demetrios1453 said:


> That illustration with an angel and fiendish hands really seems to point towards something planar. Should, like normal, we see two products in the fall (and the description definitely mentions "products" in the plural), I'm leaning towards the normal September release being an adventure (presumably planar in nature) and the November release being a riff on the various Manuals of the Planes/Planescape. Should the adventure focus on the Nine Hells, that would likely mean we'd get more or less a guide to the plane in that book, opening up the large amount of room the Hells normally take up for other places in the sourcebook.
> 
> I would be quite happy about this if it should come to pass...




 Volo's Guide to Spirits and Spectres perhaps.


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## gyor (Apr 6, 2019)

Immortal Sun said:


> Yeah as a long time MTG player, there are _style_ similarities, but given the number of quality artists MTG works with, it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone if they do art for D&D as well.
> 
> However, _most_ MTG angels are _obviously_ female, many to the point of being overly sexualized.
> 
> So, that is all to say: I got Eladrin vibes from the art as well.  I suspect the "wings" might be related to a spell.




 Yeah the Elf ears are VERY prominent.


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## gyor (Apr 6, 2019)

Kramodlog said:


> Angel? The ears, armor, gender, sparkles tell me eladrin.




 It's the wings. But there is an Elven Goddess of the air and Avariel who has wings.


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## mankyle (Apr 7, 2019)

Aerdrie Faenya?? But she is not blind


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## SkidAce (Apr 7, 2019)

The Big BZ said:


> Latest FB post says the AL Epic gives players a chance to save the Forgotten Realms:
> 
> More immersive and interactive than ever. The fun at D&D Live 2019: The Descent will include the D&D Adventurers League for the first time! Attendees can play in an EPIC adventure of 25 tables collaborating to save the Forgotten Realms! It's Dungeons & Dragons like you've never experienced before. Learn more about this May 17-19 event celebrating the next D&D storyline and how YOU can join: dnd.wizards.com/dndlive2019.




I am not positive that EPIC means epic levels.


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## The Big BZ (Apr 7, 2019)

SkidAce said:


> I am not positive that EPIC means epic levels.



In this context Epic means a special event multitable Adventures League game.  They are quite fun


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## The-Magic-Sword (Apr 7, 2019)

GarrettKP said:


> 8 devil hands reaching out for an angel? And Chris Perkins and Greg Tito just did a lore you should know about the Nine Hells and talked a lot about Zariel, who also got a stat block in Tome of Foes? I'm thinking a Blood War story with a Zariel showdown is incoming!
> 
> Tweeted my guess to Tito. He was not amused. Think I may be on to something.
> 
> https://twitter.com/Gregtito/status/1113946939383373824




They've also mentioned seeding future storylines in prior products, the blood war featured heavily in Mordenkainens as well.


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## Parmandur (Apr 7, 2019)

Pretty sure the angel figure is Zariel, especially given Tito's reaction on Twitter.

They focused rather heavily on Zariel's backstory in MToF, and the recent Lore You Should Know segment.

Since they finished the Ghosts of Saltmarsh previews in Lore You Should Know, they have covered the Rule of Three, Sigil, the Nine Hells and teased the Lady of pain. A pattern emerges...


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## gyor (Apr 7, 2019)

mankyle said:


> Aerdrie Faenya?? But she is not blind




 True, but neither is Zariel.


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## Lidgar (Apr 7, 2019)

I also think it may be about Zariel's Fall/Descent. Some random thoughts based on what is in MToF:

1. From her description before her statblock entry: "...many whisper that her true agenda is vengeance against Asmodeus, and her true plan is to drive him from the Nine Hells." Sets up a possible plot device/motivation. 

2. More: "...Zariel is keenly interested in collecting souls from the greatest warriors on the Material Plane and securing their loyalty...she allows her mortal followers to live out their lives, ever honing their talents, so she can put them to the best use when she finally calls in their debts. As a result, Zariel's servants are universally effective, disciplined, and dangerous." Sets up the potential for minions/antagonists that the PC's encounter at lower levels...

3. From her statblock: _Immolating Gaze_. Perhaps somehow this power is linked to her when she was an angel, and hence the blindfold?

Could all be for naught, but fun to speculate.


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## FitzTheRuke (Apr 8, 2019)

I suspect we will have *Into the Inferno* (or some other name), starting with an FR-based adventure and ending as a delve into the Nine Hells.


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## The Glen (Apr 8, 2019)

What modules are left in Greyhawk that involve the 9 Hells that they could easily convert to Forgotten Realms?  That one would be the obvious choice.


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## Demetrios1453 (Apr 8, 2019)

Lidgar said:


> I also think it may be about Zariel's Fall/Descent. Some random thoughts based on what is in MToF:
> 
> 1. From her description before her statblock entry: "...many whisper that her true agenda is vengeance against Asmodeus, and her true plan is to drive him from the Nine Hells." Sets up a possible plot device/motivation.
> 
> ...





Maybe in Realms mythology she was an angel in service to Tyr? Or we're reading to much into the Zariel thing, and it's another angel altogether who is dedicated to Tyr?

When it comes to blindfolds and divine powers, Tyr is the obvious match...


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## Joseph Nardo (Apr 8, 2019)

The lovely kate welch said that this upcoming campaign book is the largest so far


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## FitzTheRuke (Apr 8, 2019)

Joseph Nardo said:


> The lovely kate welch said that this upcoming campaign book is the largest so far




Largest? I hope that doesn't mean they'll break the $49.99 price point. They are already expensive enough! (Speaking as the owner of a FLGS who doesn't have the benefit of pricing that a certain online purveyor owned by the richest man in history gets to enjoy).

Edit: Come to think of it, I wonder if they'll split it in two, with one book the main thrust of the story leading up to it, and the other being the Nine Hells in all their glory. (Similar to how Waterdeep had Dragon Heist to get you started, and then Undermountain)

... though I would expect it to be backwards level-split-wise, with a level 1-15 first arc, and a 15-20 Nine Hells. 

Makes sense, anyway.


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## Paul Farquhar (Apr 8, 2019)

Lidgar said:


> 2. More: "...Zariel is keenly interested in collecting souls from the greatest warriors on the Material Plane and securing their loyalty...she allows her mortal followers to live out their lives, ever honing their talents, so she can put them to the best use when she finally calls in their debts. As a result, Zariel's servants are universally effective, disciplined, and dangerous." Sets up the potential for minions/antagonists that the PC's encounter at lower levels...




May be more interesting if the PCs are said followers, finally having their debts called in.


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## Parmandur (Apr 8, 2019)

Joseph Nardo said:


> The lovely kate welch said that this upcoming campaign book is the largest so far




Interesting: Dungeon of the Mad Mage is as long as the PHB or DMG, so that means over 320 pages...


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## Paul Farquhar (Apr 8, 2019)

I think you might have an extra zero there!


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## Hussar (Apr 8, 2019)

Who or what is a Zariel?


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## pukunui (Apr 8, 2019)

Hussar said:


> Who or what is a Zariel?



A fallen angel who is currently one of the lords of the Nine Hells. I personally am not convinced the artwork is of Zariel in her angelic form. It looks too much like an angelic elf to me and nothing at all like the image of Zariel in _Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes_ (although it would make sense that her appearance would have changed when she went from angel to devil but still ...).


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## SkidAce (Apr 8, 2019)

Yeah, no Zariel in my pantheon, but a book on the 9 hells could still be interesting.


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## Parmandur (Apr 8, 2019)

pukunui said:


> A fallen angel who is currently one of the lords of the Nine Hells. I personally am not convinced the artwork is of Zariel in her angelic form. It looks too much like an angelic elf to me and nothing at all like the image of Zariel in _Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes_ (although it would make sense that her appearance would have changed when she went from angel to devil but still ...).




The Angel is descending to eight outstretched arms, which is numerically suggestive of the fallen Angel Zariel becoming the Ninth Archdevil after her crusade into the Nine Hells. 

Last week, mere days before this was announced, Perkins gave a rundown of the Nine Hells on Dragon Talk and for no discernable reason gave an extensive profile of Zariel, her personal history, her motivation, and her goals.

When [MENTION=6811472]GarrettKP[/MENTION] asked Greg Tito if this was Zariel, Tito got dodgy.

Pretty sure this is Zariel.


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## Parmandur (Apr 8, 2019)

Hussar said:


> Who or what is a Zariel?




She is detailed in Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes, but if you don't have the book, this old preview provides good detail:

"Zariel represents the upper tier of the beings you’ll find involved with it. She’s the ruler of Avernus, the first layer of the Nine Hells. She is charged with protecting the planes where the river Styx runs through it and is in command of the armies of the Blood War. Zariel is also a fallen angel who became corrupted by the hellish influences of the lower planes."

https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2018/05/dd-check-out-zariel-from-mordenkainens-tome-of-foes.html

View attachment 105778


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## Parmandur (Apr 8, 2019)

Perkins and Tito discussion on the Nine Hells, for some context:

[video=youtube_share;TGNVAManqDs]https://youtu.be/TGNVAManqDs[/video]


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## DMZ2112 (Apr 8, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> The Angel is descending to eight outstretched arms, which is numerically suggestive of the fallen Angel Zariel becoming the Ninth Archdevil after her crusade into the Nine Hells.
> 
> Last week, mere days before this was announced, Perkins gave a rundown of the Nine Hells on Dragon Talk and for no discernable reason gave an extensive profile of Zariel, her personal history, her motivation, and her goals.
> 
> ...




There are only seven arms in the smaller image, which seems like an odd change to make if the picture was numerologically significant.  Note that the smaller image is not just a crop, it's a digital recomp.

And Tito didn't get 'dodgy' in response to Garrett's tweet, he got _rude_.

I'm as big a fan of speculation as the next geek when it is warranted, but this recent tendency to just create evidence wholesale where there is none makes me uncomfortable.  We might be getting a planar setting book.  There are certainly fiends and a celestial in this picture.  Nathan Stewart says we're getting a setting book in 2019.  But he also said WotC had no plans for new settings last year, less than a month before Ravnica was announced.

For my part, I'm not holding my breath for a _Planescape_ logo.  I was flabbergasted when we "got" Eberron after MToF, and WotC greenlighting Holly Conrad's _Trapped in the Birdcage;_ and Ravnica after the number of times they said there'd be no new settings until the old ones were updated.

These folks are paid to say and do what generates hype, and murmurs of popular settings returning generate hype.  Expecting honesty, even veiled honesty, is a fool's errand.


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## Parmandur (Apr 8, 2019)

DMZ2112 said:


> There are only seven arms in the smaller image, which seems like an odd change to make if the picture was numerologically significant.  Note that the smaller image is not just a crop, it's a digital recomp.
> 
> And Tito didn't get 'dodgy' in response to Garrett's tweet, he got _rude_.
> 
> ...




Maybe the missing arm is significant: time will tell.

Tito's answer was suggestively avoiding the question: a little peeved someone figured it out within hours of the announcement is a likely explanation.

Ravnica us not a "new setting" in the way Stewart was talking about, a wholecloth from the ground up fresh start. It's an adaptation of an existing property.

I'm pretty sure Stewart keeps up the Spelljammer teases because he wants Spelljammer to be a thing, and getting people talking about it is playing the long game.


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## DMZ2112 (Apr 8, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> Maybe the missing arm is significant: time will tell.




You are just making s**t up, now.



> Ravnica us not a "new setting" in the way Stewart was talking about, a wholecloth from the ground up fresh start. It's an adaptation of an existing property.




This is not the first time I have heard this chestnut, and it is actually _more_ disheartening to me that anyone finds it acceptable.  If Stewart was using weasel words to this degree, it says something much darker about the marketing machine at WotC than even I want to believe.  Ravnica is a new D&D setting.  Full stop.  Stewart either lied outright to maintain spin, or he is comfortable treating the fans like they are idiots.  I _pray_ it is the former.



> I'm pretty sure Stewart keeps up the Spelljammer teases because he wants Spelljammer to be a thing, and getting people talking about it is playing the long game.




Yeah, well, I _know_ he's a marketing guy doing marketing.


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## Gradine (Apr 8, 2019)

If it's worth anything, and I'm not sure it is at this point, one of those outstretched hands is decked out in jewelry; possibly a reference to Mammon? Also that perfectly symmetrical crown of light above the angel's[?] head certainly reads as "halo" to me.

I don't see anything inherently wrong with a fun bit of speculation, even if it ends up being inaccurate because of intentional subterfuge. Yes it's all just ultimately meaningless hype, but hype is hype for a reason. People love reveals. Especially the younger audiences that WotC has been actively trying to recruit; I mean have you seen the way kids go nuts over those gachapon mystery egg toy things?


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## DMZ2112 (Apr 8, 2019)

Gradine said:


> I mean have you seen the way kids go nuts over those gachapon mystery egg toy things?




They go nuts over video game lockboxes, too, and governments the world over are investigating those marketing practices.

Forgive me; I'm developing these thoughts as I write them, so I may not be crystal clear.  It's a difficult problem for me to put my finger on.

I am deeply, deeply gratified that what Wizards is doing is working to recruit new blood, and it is good to see the game marching toward being mainstream.  It's better than some video game, and always has been.  It deserves extra attention in today's play-focused culture.  But yes, the way WotC has pivoted to sell the sizzle and not the steak, and the way that the community is complicit in that, does make me uncomfortable. 

There was a time when these books were hotly anticipated (admittedly, by a much smaller audience) based on their content, and not the celebrity endorsements, Twitch streams, and $300 Los Angeles weekend galas.  I see what this pivot has done to AAA video games, and no, I don't agree that meaningless hype is harmless.

I love the D&D5 system -- I've bought the core books three times in hardback because I'm afraid of wearing them out.  But I've bought only a fraction of the supporting library, and everything I have bought elicits no more emotion than a satisfied nod.  By contrast, I dislike D&D4's system and never run it, but I have a huge collection of D&D4 sourcebooks, and _devour_ their lore.  My AD&D2 library has a place of _honor_ in my house, as do some few D&D3 books I chose to retain after the launch of Pathfinder.  

But five years in, having run at least one game in _every week_ of that time, I _do not have_ what I would call a D&D5 library.  I cannot shake the feeling that something is very wrong.


----------



## Parmandur (Apr 8, 2019)

DMZ2112 said:


> They go nuts over video game lockboxes, too, and governments the world over are investigating those marketing practices.
> 
> Forgive me; I'm developing these thoughts as I write them, so I may not be crystal clear.  It's a difficult problem for me to put my finger on.
> 
> ...




Kids these days, with their hip-hop music, the Twitching, and newfangled D&D lore.


----------



## Gradine (Apr 8, 2019)

DMZ2112 said:


> They go nuts over video game lockboxes, too, and governments the world over are investigating those marketing practices.




Don't get me wrong; I'm no fan of exploiting people's enjoyment of surprises/reveals to essentially hook them into gambling. That  is shady as hell. That said, that _enjoyment_ itself is actually quite legitimate, and a J.J. Abrams-esque "mystery box"-style marketing campaign that plays into that is significantly more harmless than turning kids into gambling addicts.



> I am deeply, deeply gratified that what Wizards is doing is working to recruit new blood, and it is good to see the game marching toward being mainstream.  It's better than some video game, and always has been.  It deserves extra attention in today's play-focused culture.  But yes, the way WotC has pivoted to sell the sizzle and not the steak, and the way that the community is complicit in that, does make me uncomfortable.




You might be speaking for yourself here when you say that WotC is not delivering the steak as well. What makes me uncomfortable is how some folks have been translating "I am personally disappointed in these offerings that others seem to really enjoy" into "the community is complicit."



> There was a time when these books were hotly anticipated (admittedly, by a much smaller audience) based on their content, and not the celebrity endorsements, Twitch streams, and $300 Los Angeles weekend galas.  I see what this pivot has done to AAA video games, and no, I don't agree that meaningless hype is harmless.




Much of this strikes me as "old man yells at cloud"-style complaints. The Twitch streams and YouTube celebrities are part-in-parcel with the D&D audience skewing much younger as it astronomically grows in size. Welcome to the new D&D fanbase.



> I love the D&D5 system -- I've bought the core books three times in hardback because I'm afraid of wearing them out.  But I've bought only a fraction of the supporting library, and everything I have bought elicits no more emotion than a satisfied nod.  By contrast, I dislike D&D4's system and never run it, but I have a huge collection of D&D4 sourcebooks, and _devour_ their lore.  My AD&D2 library has a place of _honor_ in my house, as do some few D&D3 books I chose to retain after the launch of Pathfinder.
> 
> But five years in, having run at least one game in _every week_ of that time, I _do not have_ what I would call a D&D5 library.  I cannot shake the feeling that something is very wrong.




So all of this has been code for YARPC (Yet Another Release Pace Complaint)?


----------



## Parmandur (Apr 8, 2019)

For what it's worth, this Millennial has personally anticipated and enjoyed the ancillary 5E products for their content. The fun media stuff is just, you know, fun.


----------



## DMZ2112 (Apr 8, 2019)

Gradine said:


> You might be speaking for yourself here when you say that WotC is not delivering the steak as well.




I didn't say that.  I said they're not _selling_ the steak.  I can see how I might have confused the point, though, and I'm sorry if I was unclear.  I also never used the word 'disappointed.'  I believe I said these products evoke 'satisfied nods,' which is not a negative and was not intended to be one.  Everything I've seen for D&D5 is high quality.  But what I also see is a _change in the nature_ of D&D content since the launch of D&D5 -- perhaps a greater aversion to risk? -- and I don't think I'm alone in that.  Lots of folks have noted the strong pivot to FR in the face of certain APs seemingly being written for other D&D settings, for instance.  I think WotC has been vocal about this risk averse behavior -- the edition itself was crowdsourced.  They have been harping on about the importance of "not dividing the fanbase" since before launch. 

And the community is always complicit in hype.  That's not a conspiracy theory -- either there is complicity, or there is no hype.



> Much of this strikes me as "old man yells at cloud"-style complaints. The Twitch streams and YouTube celebrities are part-in-parcel with the D&D audience skewing much younger as it astronomically grows in size. Welcome to the new D&D fanbase.




Ignoring your attempt to marginalize my point by painting me as crazy, let me be clear that I'm not above telling kids to get off my lawn, but I don't believe that's what this is.  I watch a lot of YouTube, and I don't mean home-improvement how-to videos.  Celebrity culture is not new.  What makes a celebrity and how we interact with them are different now than these things were 20, 30 years ago, but the culture was no less a thing then.  Its inclusion in official D&D marketing is new.  You could argue that celebrity _involvement_ is a natural consequence of the community getting larger, but embracing it as _strategy_ is still a choice.



> So all of this has been code for YARPC (Yet Another Release Pace Complaint)?




Is that a real acronym?  Wild.  Thanks for the second attempt to marginalize my point without addressing it.  I love D&D5's release pace.  I am just not inspired by most of what they are producing.  I recognize the high quality of a product like _Tomb of Annihilation_, and the time required to produce it, but I have no need for a module set in Chult that trades on nostalgia for recycled Greyhawk IP.  And that is _fine_ -- not everyone needs to see themselves in every book, and my point is not that Wizards is producing crap.  My point is that I worry that it does not _matter_ what Wizards produces right now, in much the same way that it does not matter how high quality a Marvel or Star Wars film is.  I think their audience buys the product no matter what, and criticism is quickly forgotten under the wheels of the marketing juggernaut for the next release -- just like at a AAA video game publisher.

This is about consumer advocacy more than it is about youth, and it's not about growth so much as it is about momentum.  It's about a phenomenon I've been observing in film and video games for some time infiltrating this hobby as well, and I don't think cocking an eyebrow and squinting hard at what is happening is necessarily unwarranted.


----------



## vecna00 (Apr 8, 2019)

They're already teasing a post-Descent announcement. I started a new thread about it, but this link should take you right to the spot it's mentioned towards the end of the last Spoilers & Swag: https://youtu.be/-yatYFcetOk?t=3526


----------



## Parmandur (Apr 8, 2019)

vecna00 said:


> They're already teasing a post-Descent announcement. I started a new thread about it, but this link should take you right to the spot it's mentioned towards the end of the last Spoilers & Swag: https://youtu.be/-yatYFcetOk?t=3526




I'm going with an announcement about the setting book they've mentioned latter this year (guessing Dragonlance, Eberron or Planescape) or movie stuff.


----------



## Joseph Nardo (Apr 9, 2019)

DMZ2112 said:


> They go nuts over video game lockboxes, too, and governments the world over are investigating those marketing practices.
> 
> Forgive me; I'm developing these thoughts as I write them, so I may not be crystal clear.  It's a difficult problem for me to put my finger on.
> 
> ...




What do you consider the steak?


----------



## FitzTheRuke (Apr 9, 2019)

I wonder that too because I find 5e Adventures, for the most part, to be better than 80%+ of the past adventures, story-wise (a lot of them are not all that easy to run, but they have generally great plots, IMO.)

Aside from maybe not liking FR (not a huge fan myself, more neutral) what is NOT "steak" about them?


----------



## Wouter Kroos (Apr 9, 2019)

Can't wait, that's for sure!


----------



## jasper (Apr 9, 2019)

descent. descent. 
Hmm could be D1 Descent into Depths of Earth update. So. Maybe a underworld splat book.


----------



## Ralif Redhammer (Apr 9, 2019)

"Major A. F."

A setting book would qualify as such, I think. But it could also be some concrete details about the movie, a videogame, and so on.



vecna00 said:


> They're already teasing a post-Descent announcement. I started a new thread about it, but this link should take you right to the spot it's mentioned towards the end of the last Spoilers & Swag: https://youtu.be/-yatYFcetOk?t=3526


----------



## SkateboardingRaptors (Apr 10, 2019)

Baldurs Gate 3 gets announced...that a major A.F announcement. There was a tweet from Brian Fargo last fall saying he knew which developer was working on it.  E3 falls in June...and they just did a lore you should know on Bhaal.

I rest my case.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Apr 10, 2019)

If you want to talk Baldur's Gate, the cover illustration makes me think of Beamdog's Siege of Dragonspear. Sure, the antagonist is an Aasimar without pointed ears, but their plan is to launch an invasion of Hell in order to rescue lost souls.
View attachment 105810


----------



## TarionzCousin (Apr 10, 2019)

Ralif Redhammer said:


> "Major A. F."



It *must* be Chris Perkins' full head hair transplant.


----------



## gyor (Apr 10, 2019)

What is Major A.F.


----------



## gyor (Apr 10, 2019)

FitzTheRuke said:


> I wonder that too because I find 5e Adventures, for the most part, to be better than 80%+ of the past adventures, story-wise (a lot of them are not all that easy to run, but they have generally great plots, IMO.)
> 
> Aside from maybe not liking FR (not a huge fan myself, more neutral) what is NOT "steak" about them?




It's not so much the APs,  it's a lack of proper setting books like FRCG and books for other settings. 

 Plus most of the books are such an unfocused mish-mash of material that they lack the "Steak".


----------



## irontyrant (Apr 10, 2019)

A.F. = As  (expletive).


----------



## Parmandur (Apr 10, 2019)

gyor said:


> It's not so much the APs,  it's a lack of proper setting books like FRCG and books for other settings.
> 
> Plus most of the books are such an unfocused mish-mash of material that they lack the "Steak".




Variety of material is not a lack of quality in said material.

We have two setting books now, and an idea of what they will look like in the future.


----------



## lkj (Apr 10, 2019)

jasper said:


> descent. descent.
> Hmm could be D1 Descent into Depths of Earth update. So. Maybe a underworld splat book.




You know, most of me thinks they wouldn't run another underdark demon thing again. However, they did leave a huge plot thread hanging in Out of the Abyss. Supposedly Lolth orchestrated the whole thing to get the other demon lords out of the way while she executed some plan. They never specified the plan. But I'm positive they already knew what she was up to.

AD


----------



## Parmandur (Apr 10, 2019)

lkj said:


> You know, most of me thinks they wouldn't run another underdark demon thing again. However, they did leave a huge plot thread hanging in Out of the Abyss. Supposedly Lolth orchestrated the whole thing to get the other demon lords out of the way while she executed some plan. They never specified the plan. But I'm positive they already knew what she was up to.
> 
> AD




Pretty sure that was Driz'zt novel related.

Wouldn't shock me to see D1-3 and U redone, but probably not months after Ghosts of Saltmarsh.


----------



## Azzy (Apr 10, 2019)

gyor said:


> What is Major A.F.




A major in the Air Force.


----------



## lkj (Apr 10, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> Pretty sure that was Driz'zt novel related.
> 
> Wouldn't shock me to see D1-3 and U redone, but probably not months after Ghosts of Saltmarsh.




Ah. Well.  There you go. I haven't read a Driz'zt novel in a long time.  And I agree that D series is probably not next up on their docket.


AD


----------



## robus (Apr 11, 2019)

lkj said:


> You know, most of me thinks they wouldn't run another underdark demon thing again. However, they did leave a huge plot thread hanging in Out of the Abyss. Supposedly Lolth orchestrated the whole thing to get the other demon lords out of the way while she executed some plan. They never specified the plan. But I'm positive they already knew what she was up to.
> 
> AD




I hope not, my remix has Graz’zt orchestrating things in order to supplant Lolth!


----------



## Parmandur (Apr 11, 2019)

lkj said:


> Ah. Well.  There you go. I haven't read a Driz'zt novel in a long time.  And I agree that D series is probably not next up on their docket.
> 
> 
> AD




Probably coming, though: if they announce a book like that for Spring 2020, that will be nearly five years since Out of the Abyss. Most Editions from WotC don't last that long.


----------



## gyor (Apr 23, 2019)

I wonder if they will have monster versions of the Tiefling subracea from MTOF?


----------



## Parmandur (Apr 24, 2019)

So, the latest Lore You Should Know segments were about the Lady of Pain and the Dark Eight (Pit Fiend Generals). Planar AP incoming...


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## MechaTarrasque (Apr 24, 2019)

robus said:


> I hope not, my remix has Graz’zt orchestrating things in order to supplant Lolth!




Graz’zt does look a lot like a drow, and he wasn't rampaging around, so he had plenty of time to set up and fortify a cult among the drow.


----------



## Hussar (Apr 24, 2019)

Well, I'm getting my nautical book, so, I can't begrudge folks getting their Planescape fix.  

Art looks good though.


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## gyor (Apr 28, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> So, the latest Lore You Should Know segments were about the Lady of Pain and the Dark Eight (Pit Fiend Generals). Planar AP incoming...




 We also got one on the heirachy of Baldur's Gate.


----------



## briggart (Apr 29, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> So, the latest Lore You Should Know segments were about the Lady of Pain and the Dark Eight (Pit Fiend Generals). Planar AP incoming...




Also, the AL rules changes article in Dragon+ had a sidebar detailing special rules for Tiefling and Aasimar characters that will be in effect during Season 9 (i.e. the one starting in September), so another hint pointing toward planar adventures.


----------



## Parmandur (Apr 29, 2019)

gyor said:


> We also got one on the heirachy of Baldur's Gate.




And the "Dead Three" gods (Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul) and their post-Sundering status and cults along the Sword Coast.

I predict an AP that starts at low-mid levels in Baldurs Gate and environs, and evolves into a descent into the Hells.


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## FitzTheRuke (Apr 29, 2019)

Sounds good to me!


----------



## Quickleaf (Apr 30, 2019)

briggart said:


> Also, the AL rules changes article in Dragon+ had a sidebar detailing special rules for Tiefling and Aasimar characters that will be in effect during Season 9 (i.e. the one starting in September), so another hint pointing toward planar adventures.




From the article:


----------



## Parmandur (Apr 30, 2019)

Quickleaf said:


> From the article:




Game balance wise, level 5 is where PCs can generally procure flight anyways.

Plotwise, allowing Aasimar without using a second book is suggestive.


----------



## vecna00 (May 1, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> Game balance wise, level 5 is where PCs can generally procure flight anyways.
> 
> Plotwise, allowing Aasimar without using a second book is suggestive.




Moar Aasimar! - Someone at WotC.....maybe.


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## gyor (May 1, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> Game balance wise, level 5 is where PCs can generally procure flight anyways.
> 
> Plotwise, allowing Aasimar without using a second book is suggestive.




 Given what we know of this new Adventure so far, it suggests Aasimars might have an important role in the Story. 

 It also allows the Aasimar/Favoured Soul/Celestial Warlock Combo and the extra spells from XGTE.


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## vecna00 (May 3, 2019)

On today's Spoiler & Swag, Nathan Stewart mentioned that they're announcing 4 new products at the event. Four. 

Now mind you, that might include dice, DM's screen, map pack, etc. But still, FOUR.


----------



## SkateboardingRaptors (May 3, 2019)

He also asked randomly What is your favourite Baldurs gate characters? We know the adventure will involve the city somehow but I still feel a Baldur’s gate game gets announced.


----------



## SuperTD (May 3, 2019)

Looking at the  schedule  for the weekend that is out, looks like they have gone much bigger than last year with 5 studios - I worry they're splitting the audience too much outside the main stage events, but who knows. 

Also, Mike Mearls does not appear anywhere - not DMing, and not in the adventure reveal panel...


----------



## gyor (May 6, 2019)

vecna00 said:


> On today's Spoiler & Swag, Nathan Stewart mentioned that they're announcing 4 new products at the event. Four.
> 
> Now mind you, that might include dice, DM's screen, map pack, etc. But still, FOUR.




 I hope it doesn't include stuff like dice. It'd be nice to learn about the next Adventure,  next Player/DM book, and Next Setting.


----------



## GarrettKP (May 8, 2019)

The Angel on the promo art is confirmed Zariel. 

https://tabletop.events/conventions...-SUHLTL_GBahQnU9oXXcFbklFQn8GYS3nFtHYXCGsaDDw

This site has info of the event, and they were provided a new vertical art piece featuring the angel. The files name reads "VerticalZariel_FSArt2-sized.jpg"

Just wanted to say I told ya'll so. Bloodwar adventure inbound.


----------



## vecna00 (May 8, 2019)

Not just the Blood War, but are we getting the whole story of Zariel's fall? Are we going to watch that in real-ish time?


----------



## gyor (May 9, 2019)

vecna00 said:


> Not just the Blood War, but are we getting the whole story of Zariel's fall? Are we going to watch that in real-ish time?




 You mean like a time travel story,  because Zariel fell long before the current in game time period.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (May 9, 2019)

gyor said:


> You mean like a time travel story,  because Zariel fell long before the current in game time period.




If you cast Enlarge/Reduce on the players and infinite amount of times they can enter the "Realm of Tiny Packages" and steel the McGuffin of PLOT from Angelic Zariel.


----------



## Parmandur (May 9, 2019)

Per last week's Dragon Talk episode, two of the products to be announced are being worked on by Shelly Mazzanoble: which means they are board game products.


----------



## Parmandur (May 9, 2019)

In addition, Perkins spends a lot of time going into the politics of the Nine Hells, and how he has been scrounging through old Dungeon magazine articles and such to find established Devil characters to us "in the future."


----------



## GarrettKP (May 9, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> Per last week's Dragon Talk episode, two of the products to be announced are being worked on by Shelly Mazzanoble: which means they are board game products.




I'm not sold that they are one and the same. I read it as she has products being announced, but not that they are one of the 4 big ones. 

We know a bit about 3 of the products. 

Bloodwar/9 Hells Adventure Hardcover
Setting Book (likely Eberron)
A new Box Set (I'd bet an Eberron Starter Set)
One Mystery product (My guess is another Magic The Gathering Setting book or a Planescape one to go with the Bloodwar Adventure)

They will undoubtedly announce new board games and other products, but the 4 announcements Nathan Stewart teased are likely all tied to the core TTRPG game.


----------



## Parmandur (May 9, 2019)

GarrettKP said:


> I'm not sold that they are one and the same. I read it as she has products being announced, but not that they are one of the 4 big ones.
> 
> We know 3 of the products in one form.
> 
> ...




Shelly works for Nate too, so if anything D&D is coming from Avalon Hill, that would also be his domain.

We do not know that those first three are seperate products: the Blood War/Baldur's Gate thing might be the boxed set, or the setting might be the boxed set, or the boxed set might be an Avalon Hill product. We'll find out soon enough.


----------



## GarrettKP (May 9, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> Shelly works for Nate too, so if anything D&D is coming from Avalon Hill, that would also be his domain.
> 
> We do not know that those first three are seperate products: the Blood War/Baldur's Gate thing might be the boxed set, or the setting might be the boxed set, or the boxed set might be an Avalon Hill product. We'll find out soon enough.




While you are technically correct, it is very easy to use context clues to rule some of this out. There is a history of big Hardcover adventure books, and they are consistently popular and profitable. It makes little sense for them to go away from this model for their big adventures, especially since Beadle and Grimm is doing premium box sets. You don't want to step on the toes of your partners.

They have also spoken openly about possibly doing a setting book for Eberron. While this could possibly be a box set, it still makes more sense for them to present it as a core hardcover book, especially since it will contain new rules for players. 

Finally, during the Stream of Many Eyes they reserved the big announcements for hardcover books directly related to the core RPG, even tho they also "announced" a new board game during the stream (Vault of Dragons). 

There is one constant here: the main product announcements focused on the core RPG, not on branded side ventures like board games or card games. It would be extremely out of character for them to take the focus of the game of D&D by making a big announcement on a D&D Branded Board Game. 

Also, while Shelly is primarily associated with Avalon Hill and the games she has help produce there, it should be noted she is credited in every D&D book this edition as a member of the D&D Team. She could have easily contributed to a product without it having been a board game. Even if it wasn't as a writer. 

Whatever the case, we will find out soon. But I don't expect any of the big announcements to be Avalon Hill branded, and I do fully expect 4 D&D branded products related directly to the TTRPG to be announced.


----------



## Parmandur (May 10, 2019)

GarrettKP said:


> While you are technically correct, it is very easy to use context clues to rule some of this out. There is a history of big Hardcover adventure books, and they are consistently popular and profitable. It makes little sense for them to go away from this model for their big adventures, especially since Beadle and Grimm is doing premium box sets. You don't want to step on the toes of your partners.
> 
> They have also spoken openly about possibly doing a setting book for Eberron. While this could possibly be a box set, it still makes more sense for them to present it as a core hardcover book, especially since it will contain new rules for players.
> 
> ...




Setting boxes have a very stories history, as do Adventure box sets. I wouldn't discount either possibility too hastily. I suspect one of the products will be a new Dungeon Mayhem release (which Stewart straight spoiled is coming a couple months ago), and I see no reason to think Shelly's 2 products are not part of the 4 mentioned on Spoilers & Swag.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (May 10, 2019)

Boxed sets used to have a purpose when most D&D stuff was sold through specialist hobby shops. These days, with most stuff being sold through Amazon and general booksellers or digitally, I see no point in putting something in a box unless it contains dice or playing pieces. I.e. a starter set or board game.


----------



## Parmandur (May 10, 2019)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Boxed sets used to have a purpose when most D&D stuff was sold through specialist hobby shops. These days, with most stuff being sold through Amazon and general booksellers or digitally, I see no point in putting something in a box unless it contains dice or playing pieces. I.e. a starter set or board game.




Up Avalon Hills alley, yes, indeed.


----------



## vecna00 (May 10, 2019)

gyor said:


> You mean like a time travel story,  because Zariel fell long before the current in game time period.




Would it need to be time travel? Could the adventure just be set during that time? Or, and more likely, do we just witness it through a storytelling mechanism? Think the Ravenloft adventure "A Light in the Belfry," the one with the CD that would play out important moments with visions and phantasms.* 

*Note: I've never actually run or played through the adventure, a friend of mine had it and we listened to that CD a crapton. So I don't know exactly how those scenes played out, I just know that they did play out for the PCs to see, and I could see them trying something similar for this. Not exact, but similar.


----------



## gyor (May 10, 2019)

vecna00 said:


> Would it need to be time travel? Could the adventure just be set during that time? Or, and more likely, do we just witness it through a storytelling mechanism? Think the Ravenloft adventure "A Light in the Belfry," the one with the CD that would play out important moments with visions and phantasms.*
> 
> *Note: I've never actually run or played through the adventure, a friend of mine had it and we listened to that CD a crapton. So I don't know exactly how those scenes played out, I just know that they did play out for the PCs to see, and I could see them trying something similar for this. Not exact, but similar.




 I guess we will find out, but I have no idea.


----------



## vecna00 (May 11, 2019)

gyor said:


> I guess we will find out, but I have no idea.




We definitely will! Hopefully, it'll at least be pretty good.


----------



## Parmandur (May 11, 2019)

Listening to the latest Dragon Talk: 

- 4 PM PST on 5/17 will be the announcement of the new Adventure product specifically.

- "many, many, many products" will also be discussed.

- They will discuss the Young Adventurer Guides during D&D Live, particularly the two coming in the Fall that haven't been announced yet

- Perkins went into detail on the political hierarchy of the city of Baldur's Gate: focused on the city's distinctive as being a bloody, dangerous place. Discussed the Grand Dukes and the Parliament of Peers. Division of wealthy and cut-throat slums. The Flaming Fist mercenary company controlled by the Dukes. Rampant corruption and intrigue, murder and power struggle, pirates and smuggling. Contrasted it with the law-abiding and fairly safe city of Waterdeep. Proximity to Candlekeep. Relations with Amn, membership in the Lord's Alliance, relationship with Port Nyunzaru against Amn. The events and outcome of "Murder in Baldur's Gate" and the current situation. Went into detail about how one might set up a party starting in Baldur's Gate. Went into the possibility of a violent revolution sweeping through the city if a major disaster were to occur. Really sounds like Baldur's Gate will play a part in an upcoming product.


----------



## GarrettKP (May 11, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> Listening to the latest Dragon Talk:
> 
> - 4 PM PST on 5/17 will be the announcement of the new Adventure product specifically.
> 
> ...




Pretty sure the Lore you should know is talking about Baldurs Gate because of the DMs Guild Hardcover that was just released, written by the guy that did the video games.


----------



## Parmandur (May 11, 2019)

GarrettKP said:


> Pretty sure the Lore you should know is talking about Baldurs Gate because of the DMs Guild Hardcover that was just released, written by the guy that did the video games.




Alternatively, I would suggest that DMs Guild book might be designed to lead into something else. Perkins has been alternating discussing Baldur's Gate & environs (The Dead Three definitely has nothing to do with the DMsGuild product, as he is discussing the status of the three gods post-Spellplague in the Baldur's Gate area, while that book is set in the 2E era: the government actors as outlined in this podcast are different from the DMsGuild product as well, for the same reason) and Blood War material. Hardly incompatible, in the context of an Adventure Path.


----------



## Parmandur (May 11, 2019)

Thinking about Perkins detailed description of Baldur's Gate some more, it really sounds like a Hell on Earth, in D&D terms: a rigid, militarized plutocracy ruled by corrupt Dukes. Gave it a violent Lawful Evil cast of character. I could see BG being the springboard for a...descent...


----------



## Demetrios1453 (May 11, 2019)

GarrettKP said:


> Pretty sure the Lore you should know is talking about Baldurs Gate because of the DMs Guild Hardcover that was just released, written by the guy that did the video games.




As that is set over 100 years ago in the setting, and the political situation is _completely_ different these days, probably not.


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## SkateboardingRaptors (May 11, 2019)

Am I the only one who gets super excited for these announcements??? I find myself searching the internet for clues constantly.


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## Morrus (May 11, 2019)

SkateboardingRaptors said:


> Am I the only one who gets super excited for these announcements??? I find myself searching the internet for clues constantly.




Personally, it’s the previews of the announcements of the announcements which excite me most.


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## EthanSental (May 11, 2019)

I’ll be checking out the stream next weekend but luckily if I miss anything, ENworld will cover it for me pretty quickly!


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## Morrus (May 11, 2019)

*New D&amp;D Adventure Reveal On 17th May at 'The Descent'*



EthanSental said:


> I’ll be checking out the stream next weekend but luckily if I miss anything, ENworld will cover it for me pretty quickly!




I’m not going to be up at 2am Saturday morning! But I’ll catch up later, hopefully. You’ll probably know before I do.


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## EthanSental (May 12, 2019)

People will post like before I’m sure!


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## Paul Farquhar (May 12, 2019)

Demetrios1453 said:


> As that is set over 100 years ago in the setting, and the political situation is _completely_ different these days, probably not.




It's not _completely_ different. It's still ruled by a ducal council. The Dukes may have become more evil over the years, but what would you expect?


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## gyor (May 12, 2019)

I hope you wrong about the Baldur's Gate link,  enough with the Swordcoast already,  the realms are big go somewhere else.


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## Parmandur (May 12, 2019)

Paul Farquhar said:


> It's not _completely_ different. It's still ruled by a ducal council. The Dukes may have become more evil over the years, but what would you expect?




The point is that Perkins goes into great detail about the NPCs who hold those positions currently in the late 15th century DR, and the work the WotC has put into figuring out the current situation: which is completely unrelated to the DMsGuild product set in the mid-14th century DR. The only reason Perkins would have spent this much energy on the topic, behind the scenes, would be if it is relevant to his job, namely writing the big Adventure Path for the year


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## Parmandur (May 12, 2019)

gyor said:


> I hope you wrong about the Baldur's Gate link,  enough with the Swordcoast already,  the realms are big go somewhere else.




I'd say it's pretty certain at this point.


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## Paul Farquhar (May 13, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> The point is that Perkins goes into great detail about the NPCs who hold those positions currently in the late 15th century DR, and the work the WotC has put into figuring out the current situation: which is completely unrelated to the DMsGuild product set in the mid-14th century DR. The only reason Perkins would have spent this much energy on the topic, behind the scenes, would be if it is relevant to his job, namely writing the big Adventure Path for the year




"Heroes of Baldur's Gate" includes suggestions for setting the adventure in the FR present, with replacements for the shorter lived "heroes". However, it does not go into detail about the current political situation in Baldur's Gate. The podcast could be simply rectifying that.


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## Parmandur (May 13, 2019)

Paul Farquhar said:


> "Heroes of Baldur's Gate" includes suggestions for setting the adventure in the FR present, with replacements for the shorter lived "heroes". However, it does not go into detail about the current political situation in Baldur's Gate. The podcast could be simply rectifying that.




Or the insiders prepped some supporting material for an upcoming product.


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## Paul Farquhar (May 13, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> Or the insiders prepped some supporting material for an upcoming product.




Possible, but sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. It would be unwise to jump to conclusions.


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## CapnZapp (May 13, 2019)

gyor said:


> I hope you wrong about the Baldur's Gate link,  enough with the Swordcoast already,  the realms are big go somewhere else.



WotC wants as little division among it's customer base as possible. They aren't going back to supporting lots of regions and worlds.

Remember, the end goal for Hasbro here is movies and merchandise, not ttrpgs.


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## DEFCON 1 (May 13, 2019)

People all along have kept insisting that this whole FR / Sword Coast thing is only due to some grand edict from Hasbro just because they have this idea they need to keep the area "fresh" for a D&D movie-- but I never have and still don't believe it.  Movies take so freaking long to get into production and make that there is absolutely no reason anyone would think they need to keep the D&D game into a holding pattern just to justify it.  And more especially, any powers-that-be at whatever the "film side" of Hasbro is or the film company that is producing and/or distributing the eventual D&D movie have probably little to no concern about the current state of the game _at all_.  If/when a movie gets made, the producers and directors will set it wherever and whenever they want regardless of where/when the actual RPG sits, and if/when any marketing for the RPG comes up to connect it to the movie, they'll just make any and all products _for the movie_.  There's absolutely no need to make sure the grand state of the D&D RPG in its entirety matches up with whatever movie D&D decides to go with.  Especially considering it already has and will continue to take YEARS before any move actually rears its ugly head.

Whoever makes, produces or directs the eventual movie is in no way going to be beholden to where the game sits, and no one would ever bother wasting the game department's time by forcing them into a single path that just ends "hopefully" aligning to what the movie people eventually decide to go with.  I mean after all... did the people who made the Warcraft movie align their film to the current state of the MMO?  No!  They decided for themselves where they wanted to set their film, and they did it.  And never did the WoW producers have to align the state of the game _to them_.

Because after all... no one who doesn't play these games cares in the slightest how the eventual film aligns with the games that are inspiring them.  They care only about how good a film is.  And *if* its a good film, they _maybe_ it will inspire some people to check out the game.  And to help those people there will probably be a wonderful supplement produced by the game people that will come directly out of the movie, but which will in no way be connected to the game line as a whole.  (See: The Stranger Things Starter Set.)

Because once you hook someone into actually checking out the D&D game... that person learns soon enough that there isn't just ONE game-- there are hundreds of different games and settings that you can make and play in, and thus no alignment to the "movie game" is ultimately necessary nor required.


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## Parmandur (May 13, 2019)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Possible, but sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. It would be unwise to jump to conclusions.




By the same token, sometimes a developer talking about what they are working on is simply that. Which is what Lore You Should Know is about.


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## GarrettKP (May 13, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> By the same token, sometimes a developer talking about what they are working on is simply that. Which is what Lore You Should Know is about.




That is not technically what Lore You Should Know is about, as they have in the past talked about lore topics that were not being worked on at the time. BUT I am starting to suspect you are correct about the Baldurs Gate connection. Not because of LYSK, but because of something Tito said earlier in that very same episode of Dragon Talk. 

Tito mentioned Jim Zub as being a player in one of the upcoming games during the live stream and that his character is a spoiler for the book. For those that do not know, Zub writes D&D comics, including the Rick and Morty crossover and, more interestingly, the Legends of Baldur's Gate books. 

If Zub is playing a character that is a spoiler, then the character is likely a named NPC. And if it is a named NPC, then it is likely a character Zub is intimately familiar with. So unless the new adventure book is a Rick and Morty crossover adventure, I would wager a guess he is playing Minsc or one of his companions from Zub's own books. And if so, and if they were a spoiler, then that would point to a Baldur's Gate connection. 

So ya, a Baldur's Gate Bloodwar combo adventure seems likely.


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## Parmandur (May 13, 2019)

GarrettKP said:


> That is not technically what Lore You Should Know is about, as they have in the past talked about lore topics that were not being worked on at the time. BUT I am starting to suspect you are correct about the Baldurs Gate connection. Not because of LYSK, but because of something Tito said earlier in that very same episode of Dragon Talk.
> 
> Tito mentioned Jim Zub as being a player in one of the upcoming games during the live stream and that his character is a spoiler for the book. For those that do not know, Zub writes D&D comics, including the Rick and Morty crossover and, more interestingly, the Legends of Baldur's Gate books.
> 
> ...




For months leading up to the announcement of Ghosts of Saltmarsh, all the LYSK episodes were about the U series, TSR UK, Saughuin in general, aquatic monsters, Lizardfolk, etc. Most of the time, what he talks about relates to what he is working on.

All of the WotC have been mentioning Baldur's Gate casually recently: it came up during the latest Spoilers & Swag, too.


----------



## Tales and Chronicles (May 13, 2019)

My bet is that we will see an AP featuring Dragonspear Castle which houses a portal to Hell and has long been a thorn in Baldur's Gate foot. 

SPOILER for Siege of Dragonspear Castle

The last Baldur's Gate game was a story about a how a crusader wished to invade hell to free a loved one while her close advisor conspired to free his devil master. 


There's also a possible link between Hoard of the Dragon Queen and Zariel. The wiki states that Zariel was the one who suggested to the Thayians and the Dragonc Cult to summon Tiamat to Toril because whe wanted to get rid her layer of Hell of her. So maybe we will see the next step in the large metaplot of HotDQ -> Rot -> SKT -> ? .

I believe those events with be linked in the next AP, but I dont know how


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## Parmandur (May 13, 2019)

vincegetorix said:


> My bet is that we will see an AP featuring Dragonspear Castle which houses a portal to Hell and has long been a thorn in Baldur's Gate foot.
> 
> SPOILER for Siege of Dragonspear Castle
> 
> ...




WotC doesn't do metaplot anymore: but possible connections, definitely. Perkins went into how Baldur's Gate ties into Chult, for example.


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## Tales and Chronicles (May 13, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> WotC doesn't do metaplot anymore: but possible connections, definitely. Perkins went into how Baldur's Gate ties into Chukt, for example.




Sorry, megaplot would be the term I was looking for. You, one big chain of events.


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## Parmandur (May 13, 2019)

vincegetorix said:


> Sorry, megaplot would be the term I was looking for. You, one big chain of events.




Oh, yeah, for sure: I think that's the real reason for the continued Sword Coast usage: creating a giant sandbox for DMs to remix to taste.


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## GarrettKP (May 15, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> WotC doesn't do metaplot anymore: but possible connections, definitely. Perkins went into how Baldur's Gate ties into Chult, for example.




What makes you say they don’t do metaplots? 

There’s a lot of evidence that suggests they in fact are doing one for 5e right now. Both in how some of the books obviously have direct ties to each other (Dragon Queen, Rise of Tiamat, Storm Kings Thunder, Tomb of Annihilation all work together to tell a story with major connections, as do Princes of the Apocalypse and Out of the Abyss) but also in the fairly obvious set up they have been doing involving the black standing stones in all the major adventures. 

Not only am I sure they are doing a meta plot, I’m pretty sure I know exactly what the plot is. And I know part of it is teased in Ghosts of Saltmarsh.

Hell I’m pretty sure one of them even said at the beginning of this editions life span that they wanted to create a D&D version of the MCU in terms of interconnected storytelling.


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## Parmandur (May 15, 2019)

GarrettKP said:


> What makes you say they don’t do metaplots?
> 
> There’s a lot of evidence that suggests they in fact are doing one for 5e right now. Both in how some of the books obviously have direct ties to each other (Dragon Queen, Rise of Tiamat, Storm Kings Thunder, Tomb of Annihilation all work together to tell a story with major connections, as do Princes of the Apocalypse and Out of the Abyss) but also in the fairly obvious set up they have been doing involving the black standing stones in all the major adventures.
> 
> ...




Not a metaplot as in what happened in 2E: more like Lego set-pieces. Storms King Thunder lays this out nicely, going over the ways to mix and match the advernture products. The idea isn't to have a set plot that everybody follows, but leave the timeline indeterminate and provide potentials that a given DM can remix as desired.

The obelisks are an easter egg for Crawford's home game, and they have explained they are hooks for the DM to use as desired, as with all of the other potential connecting hooks.

I am curious as to what you are referring to in Ghosts of Saltmarsh, and your overall theory, however?


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## GarrettKP (May 15, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> Not a metaplot as in what happened in 2E: more like Lego set-pieces. Storms King Thunder lays this out nicely, going over the ways to mix and match the advernture products. The idea isn't to have a set plot that everybody follows, but leave the timeline indeterminate and provide potentials that a given DM can remix as desired.
> 
> The obelisks are an easter egg for Crawford's home game, and they have explained they are hooks for the DM to use as desired, as with all of the other potential connecting hooks.
> 
> I am curious as to what you are referring to in Ghosts of Saltmarsh, and your overall theory, however?




I’ve never seen them say the obelisks are from Crawford’s home game, and I’ve seen members of the staff treat them as something more (Mearls said he couldn’t talk about them during a reddit AMA, implying they are to be paid off later.)

Having seen some of the pages being spread around by folks with review copies. There is another prominent obelisk in Saltmarsh. On top of that, Tharizdun plays a part in the adventures (yes I know these are old adventures, but still).

My theory is that Tharizdun is the big bad of the “D&DCU” ala Thanos. And I think they have done a good job setting that up covertly. He (or his cult) has played a part in two major adventures now (Princes and Abyss). And, assuming 5e is keeping some of the 4e multiverse lore with the Dawn War, his influence extends to almost every adventure, even if it is just a small connection. 

The way I see it, there are two major Adventure branches that have some crossover, but mainly work parallel to each other. 

Tyranny of Dragons, Storm Kings, and Tomb of Annihilation have a connecting through line that ties them together. SKT directly involves the outcome of Tyranny, and connects to Annihilation through the Ring of Winter plot. 

Princes of the Apocalypse and Out of the Abyss are directly tied by DeVir, the cultist of Tharizdun. I am pretty confident that The Descents Adventure will directly tie into Out of the Abyss (Perkins said a Devil focused “response” to Abyss was planned and I think that’s what this is). 

The outlier right now is Dragon Heist and Mad Mage (and Strahd, but that’s a separate setting outlier and the only adventure that doesn’t have a prominent black obelisk as far as I’m aware). There’s some connections if you squint, like the cult of Asmodeous being big players in Waterdeep (which might directly connect to The Descent). 

One branch has a lot of Tharizdun influence in it. And I think there’s a chance these two branches overlap in the future in a major multiverse story involving Tharizduns attempts to escape his prison Demi plane. And I think in the end the Obelisks will be revealed as anchors in the material plane Tharizdun uses to spread influence. 

If 4e lore is being retained (and we haven’t really see anything to say the Dawn War isn’t being retained) then Tharizdun has a major connection to Demons, Primordials, and the Far Realm. A lot of the obelisks have been found in connection to those themes. One in the actual Elemental Cults lairs, one in a demon infused underdark, one literally housing a demon in Chult, and most recently one inside a mansion infused with Far Realm influence. 

To me, at worst there’s two meta plots going on and one involves Tharizdun. But I think he will cause the two branches to connect eventually.


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## Parmandur (May 15, 2019)

GarrettKP said:


> I’ve never seen them say the obelisks are from Crawford’s home game, and I’ve seen members of the staff treat them as something more (Mearls said he couldn’t talk about them during a reddit AMA, implying they are to be paid off later.)
> 
> Having seen some of the pages being spread around by folks with review copies. There is another prominent obelisk in Saltmarsh. On top of that, Tharizdun plays a part in the adventures (yes I know these are old adventures, but still).
> 
> ...




That's some high grade speculation, salute. There is an obelisk in DotMM and in Curse of Strahd, actually, somewhere in the jumble.

The easter egg nature of the obelisks came up in Dragon Talk or Dragon+, I forget if Perkins or Crawford said it but it was referencing Crawford's game (yeeeears ago, I think it may have been circa Curse of Strahd IIRC), but they are there for a DM to use as hooks for connecting the adventures if desired. They don't have plans to establish a canonical "result" for any of the APs, as they are potential rather than actual events. They happen only at individual tables, not in an official capacity. Which is what I meant about metaplot. They definitely want to leave connections as they go, to help DMs set them up.


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## GarrettKP (May 15, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> That's some high grade speculation, salute. There is an obelisk in DotMM and in Curse of Strahd, actually, somewhere in the jumble.
> 
> The easter egg nature of the obelisks came up in Dragon Talk or Dragon+, I forget if Perkins or Crawford said it but it was referencing Crawford's game (yeeeears ago, I think it may have been circa Curse of Strahd IIRC), but they are there for a DM to use as hooks for connecting the adventures if desired. They don't have plans to establish a canonical "result" for any of the APs, as they are potential rather than actual events. They happen only at individual tables, not in an official capacity. Which is what I meant about metaplot. They definitely want to leave connections as they go, to help DMs set them up.




I'd love to see a link to that. Because I have listened to and read most every episode/issue of Dragon Talk and Dragon + and do not remember that. I do remember they said Curse of Strahd used elements of Crawfords home campaign and that the standing stones in Strahd were from Crawfords original homeworld, but they are not the same thing. So until I see a source where they said the Obelisks won't pay off, I will stick to my theory.

EDIT: Maybe you are confusing their comments with this: https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/06/22/hey-whats-up-with-the-megaliths-in-curse-of-strahd/

They say exactly what you said, but only about the standing stones in the Curse of Strahd campaign. Which is not the same as the strange obelisks in the other hardcovers. I know Perkins himself has added most of the Obelisks in the hardcovers. Dan Dillon wrote the portion of Mad Mage where the Obelisk appears, and he told me the obelisk was added after he submitted his work by Perkins. I am certain they are there as a payoff later.


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## Parmandur (May 15, 2019)

GarrettKP said:


> I'd love to see a link to that. Because I have listened to and read most every episode/issue of Dragon Talk and Dragon + and do not remember that. I do remember they said Curse of Strahd used elements of Crawfords home campaign and that the standing stones in Strahd were from Crawfords original homeworld, but they are not the same thing. So until I see a source where they said the Obelisks won't pay off, I will stick to my theory.
> 
> EDIT: Maybe you are confusing their comments with this: https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/06/22/hey-whats-up-with-the-megaliths-in-curse-of-strahd/
> 
> They say exactly what you said, but only about the standing stones in the Curse of Strahd campaign. Which is not the same as the strange obelisks in the other hardcovers. I know Perkins himself has added most of the Obelisks in the hardcovers. Dan Dillon wrote the portion of Mad Mage where the Obelisk appears, and he told me the obelisk was added after he submitted his work by Perkins. I am certain they are there as a payoff later.




Yes, I think that is what was kicking around the back of my brain. I could've sworn they were the same as the obelisks popping up all around, but who can say?

If it is part of a pay-off for later, I would go with anchors for the return of the Mindflayer empire that Volo's described as suddenly disappearing in a flash.


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## GarrettKP (May 15, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> Yes, I think that is what was kicking around the back of my brain. I could've sworn they were the same as the obelisks popping up all around, but who can say?
> 
> If it is part of a pay-off for later, I would go with anchors for the return of the Mindflayer empire that Volo's described as suddenly disappearing in a flash.




Either way, I cannot wait to see what they end up becoming.


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## Hussar (May 16, 2019)

One nice thing about using Tharizudun for a "Thanos" style bad guy, if they are doing that, is that there is so little actual canon lore regarding Tharizudun.  Yup, he appears in a few modules, or at least cults do, but, by and large, there isn't anything really specific.  So, they can avoid the whole "You can't do that" stuff when doing planar adventures.


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## Hexmage-EN (May 16, 2019)

Hussar said:


> One nice thing about using Tharizudun for a "Thanos" style bad guy, if they are doing that, is that there is so little actual canon lore regarding Tharizudun.  Yup, he appears in a few modules, or at least cults do, but, by and large, there isn't anything really specific.  So, they can avoid the whole "You can't do that" stuff when doing planar adventures.




4E did a lot with him in the Points of Light setting's Dawn War (which is similar to the War of Law and Chaos in other editions). 

Basically, Tharizdun betrayed his fellow gods to lead a number of godlike, mostly-chaotic elemental lords called the primordials against them, but this attempt was thwarted (this explains Tharizdun's alias Elder Elemental Eye and the Princes of Elemental Evil's interest in him). Later he discovered a "Seed of Evil" that promised him even greater power and a new army. This Seed was created by the obyriths, the twelve surviving demon lords (including the Queen of Chaos, Obox-Ob, Dagon, and Pazuzu) of a multiverse whose destruction they themselves had caused. They needed a tear in the planar fabric to escape to a new multiverse, and they wanted Tharizdun to plant the Seed in the Astral Plane, but he instead planted it in the Elemental Planes. After the Abyss formed he tried to take control of it and its demons to attack the gods but was again thwarted. Eventually the other gods had enough of the destruction Tharizdun was causing, so they worked together to defeat and imprison him. 

This is all technically 4E specific, but the 4E cosmology itself is essentially the product of an alternate outcome to the War of Law and Chaos, one where attempts to organize the Outer and Elemental Planes were thwarted and the Abyss formed in a different place. Further, the 4E origin of the demons (and devils as well) work well as an elaboration on the origins given in 3.5's Fiendish Codex series, which themselves still followed the Great Wheel cosmology and inherited many details from 2E. Given that there is little detail on Tharizdun given outside of 4E one could use much of the lore concerning him from that edition without contradicting much else.


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## SkidAce (May 16, 2019)

I selfishly hope its not Tharizdun as a capstone villain.  I've been using him since the early 80s, in various campaigns over the years.

Sigh...


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## GarrettKP (May 16, 2019)

So since tomorrow is the stream (and I doubt any more info will drop regarding the event) I am gonna go ahead and make my final guess on the 4 big products they are announcing. I am pretty confident about 3 of them. Here we go:

The big adventure being announced will be focused on the Bloodwar and will have a heavy focus on Zariel and her fall. This is also likely the followup to Out of the Abyss that Perkins mentioned in an interview last year.

The setting book will be Eberron, which is why Artificer is getting so heavily playtested again. Expect final versions of the crunch found in Wayfinder's Guide, but with less a focus on Sharn to avoid as much overlap as possible. 

The box set will be an Eberron Starter Set. It will be more expansive than the previous starter sets, with a starter adventure, plus things like maps and maybe paper minis to accompany the adventure. Will also include a new version of the basic rules tailored to include Eberron content. 

The mystery 4th product will be a surprise setting book. I am not sure on which setting, but my top 3 guesses would be Planescape, Spelljammer, or another Magic The Gathering setting (likely one with a close D&D parallel like Innistrad so they can reuse some of those assets).

I'm confident the first two are 100% correct. I am about 90% sure on the box set. I am maybe 50% sure on the mystery 4th product. 

Can't wait to eat crow or say I told you so by the end of the weekend!


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## Parmandur (May 16, 2019)

GarrettKP said:


> So since tomorrow is the stream (and I doubt any more info will drop regarding the event) I am gonna go ahead and make my final guess on the 4 big products they are announcing. I am pretty confident about 3 of them. Here we go:
> 
> The big adventure being announced will be focused on the Bloodwar and will have a heavy focus on Zariel and her fall. This is also likely the followup to Out of the Abyss that Perkins mentioned in an interview last year.
> 
> ...




Good guesses, I think. My wild prediction is Dragonlance will see some action.


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## jasper (May 16, 2019)

Has any one made a list of the guesses in this thread?
One more guess. Hasibro will come to it senses and put me in charge of D&D.


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## Len (May 16, 2019)

jasper said:


> One more guess. Hasibro will come to it senses and put me in charge of D&D.



You’ve ruined it by spelling their name wrong.


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## Urriak (May 16, 2019)

GarrettKP said:


> So since tomorrow is the stream (and I doubt any more info will drop regarding the event) I am gonna go ahead and make my final guess on the 4 big products they are announcing. I am pretty confident about 3 of them. Here we go:
> 
> The big adventure being announced will be focused on the Bloodwar and will have a heavy focus on Zariel and her fall. This is also likely the followup to Out of the Abyss that Perkins mentioned in an interview last year.
> 
> ...




Interesting thoughts!

The first one is pretty much baked in, though I'm hoping the big adventure showcases the other devils as well as Zariel. Also I suspect that although it's a follow-up to Out of the Abyss, it will be less a sequel and have more indirect links like Tiamat to Storm King to tomb of Annihilation.

Setting book being Eberron also seems almost 100%, so much of that work is already completed. Hopefully comes with new art and stuff.

I don't know what else the box-set could be other than Eberron, but I also don't know how much bigger it will be than say Phandelver. Slim rulebook for the classes and spells, a 1-5 level adventure including maps and monsters, Eberron pre-made characters sheets. I don't think they'll add too much more than that, partners can sell minis and other bits and bobs (Beatle and Grimm's).

4th product in my mind can be literally anything. It could be a new monster/lore book specific to Eberron in the style of Volo's Guide/Mordenkainen. I don't know how much more they could add in a Xanathar's Guide book, but I still think it's possible especially if they plug in more Eberron stuff. And it can also be a setting book.

If it is a setting book, I kind of doubt it's going to be a Magic Setting that isn't already done in a Planeshift. It would be easy to do but the team seems more interested in covering content that is mostly unexplored in 5e, purposefully leaving gaps in some areas to fill in later. For example, Mordenkainen's could have easily used main Archdevils but instead didn't stat them, I suspect to cover them in the Descent. Why make a product that is already for free in a Planeshift (even if they will obviously add more). I think this case is especially true for settings like Innistrad that are just Ravenloft but slightly different.

That still leaves room for Magic settings like Tarkir (which is kind of 3 settings in one with their wonky timelines) or Theros (because it's just unique). Spelljammer also makes sense because of previous content hinting at it, as does Planescape for the same reason. I'll add maybe Greyhawk as there have been some hints in past books and Dragon talk towards it, but that could just because Greyhawk is so pervasive in D&D.

Other setting like Dragonlance, Dark Sun or Mystara probably need a more robust release so I doubt it's them (also no hints towards them).


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## gyor (May 16, 2019)

My guess is the Blood War AP, Volo's Guide to Spirits and Specters, Mystara Setting Book (this is why Saltmarsh Mentions Mystara and not Dragonlance), and the book set is for Eberron. 

 This of course doesn't count Adventerer's Inc book.


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## GarrettKP (May 16, 2019)

gyor said:


> My guess is the Blood War AP, Volo's Guide to Spirits and Specters, Mystara Setting Book (this is why Saltmarsh Mentions Mystara and not Dragonlance), and the book set is for Eberron.
> 
> This of course doesn't count Adventerer's Inc book.




I'd be floored if Mystara got a book before the other 3 big settings (Eberron, Planescape, Dark Sun).


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## gyor (May 16, 2019)

GarrettKP said:


> I'd be floored if Mystara got a book before the other 3 big settings (Eberron, Planescape, Dark Sun).




Eberron already has one. It could be Planescape. I don't think the Psion is ready enough for Darksun.


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## GarrettKP (May 16, 2019)

gyor said:


> Eberron already has one. It could be Planescape. I don't think the Psion is ready enough for Darksun.




Eberron got a PDF. But Mearls said in an interview with Comicbook.com that the PDF did not mean a Hardcover wouldn't also be coming. And since they are testing Artificer heavily in UA right now, seems obvious to me that Eberron is getting a full hardcover now.


----------



## Parmandur (May 16, 2019)

GarrettKP said:


> I'd be floored if Mystara got a book before the other 3 big settings (Eberron, Planescape, Dark Sun).




I think the Mystarra stuff might be because of Goodman Games publications: wouldn't surprise me if they do more with the setting with their classics imprint.


----------



## Parmandur (May 16, 2019)

gyor said:


> Eberron already has one. It could be Planescape. I don't think the Psion is ready enough for Darksun.




Eberron got a *test* product with recycled art. They have been actively playtesting the crunch from that book, and talking about the possibility of a full book along the liens of Guildmaster's Guide to Ravnica. The unique monsters of Eberron (and there are quite a few) haven't been covered yet, among many other things.


----------



## gyor (May 16, 2019)

GarrettKP said:


> Eberron got a PDF. But Mearls said in an interview with Comicbook.com that the PDF did not mean a Hardcover wouldn't also be coming. And since they are testing Artificer heavily in UA right now, seems obvious to me that Eberron is getting a full hardcover now.




 That is a reasonable guess.


----------



## gyor (May 16, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> I think the Mystarra stuff might be because of Goodman Games publications: wouldn't surprise me if they do more with the setting with their classics imprint.




 That makes sense too. Perhaps as a Wotc D&D partner that will be announce as well.


----------



## Parmandur (May 16, 2019)

It also strikes me that a playtest PDF like the Eberron book might be announced at some point: Dark Sun, perhaps?


----------



## GarrettKP (May 16, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> It also strikes me that a playtest PDF like the Eberron book might be announced at some point: Dark Sun, perhaps?




That I think is a possibility. Tho I don't think that is a stream announcement. Likely post stream if it happens this year.


----------



## Prakriti (May 16, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> It also strikes me that a playtest PDF like the Eberron book might be announced at some point: Dark Sun, perhaps?



There's no mastermind behind Dark Sun like there is with Eberron, so it seems unlikely. The only reason we got the _Wayfarer's Guide_ was because Keith Baker continues to champion the setting. If Dark Sun had a highly respected and enthusiastic creator who was willing to do the work for them, then I'm sure WotC would arrange something with them. But that, as far as I know, is not the case.


----------



## Parmandur (May 16, 2019)

Prakriti said:


> There's no mastermind behind Dark Sun like there is with Eberron, so it seems unlikely. The only reason we got the _Wayfarer's Guide_ was because Keith Baker continues to champion the setting. If Dark Sun had a highly respected and enthusiastic creator who was willing to do the work for them, then I'm sure WotC would arrange something with them. But that, as far as I know, is not the case.




On the other hand, they have been talking about doing Dark Sun for years, they are working on Psionics with a focus on Dark Sun (per Mearls), and Mearls was able to casually go very into detail on what they would put into Dark Sun on the Happy Fun Hour, like he had already written out the draft. We'll see it sooner or latter.


----------



## lkj (May 16, 2019)

GarrettKP said:


> Eberron got a PDF. But Mearls said in an interview with Comicbook.com that the PDF did not mean a Hardcover wouldn't also be coming. And since they are testing Artificer heavily in UA right now, seems obvious to me that Eberron is getting a full hardcover now.




It's true they are testing the Artificer, and this continued interest might mean they are considering a hardcover. But they've stated in the past that the Artificer will be added to the Wayfinders pdf, so, in and of itself, it's not definitive proof of a print book.

AD


----------



## Parmandur (May 16, 2019)

lkj said:


> It's true they are testing the Artificer, and this continued interest might mean they are considering a hardcover. But they've stated in the past that the Artificer will be added to the Wayfinders pdf, so, in and of itself, it's not definitive proof of a print book.
> 
> AD




True, but their having said "we are thinking of doing a hardcover for Eberron," which they did explicitly when the Guide was released, does suggest that they are thinking of doing a hardcover for Eberron. Why spend all the time playtesting the crunch, if not to give it a bigger release?


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## jgsugden (May 16, 2019)

Prakriti said:


> There's no mastermind behind Dark Sun like there is with Eberron, so it seems unlikely. The only reason we got the _Wayfarer's Guide_ was because Keith Baker continues to champion the setting. If Dark Sun had a highly respected and enthusiastic creator who was willing to do the work for them, then I'm sure WotC would arrange something with them. But that, as far as I know, is not the case.



You mean like Troy Denning, who wrote the entire first series of Novels for Dark Sun and many other WotC D&D novels?  Who as recently as last year was tweeting about how much he enjoyed people being enthusiastic about Dark Sun?


----------



## Urriak (May 16, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> On the other hand, they have been talking about doing Dark Sun for years, they are working on Psionics with a focus on Dark Sun (per Mearls), and Mearls was able to casually go very into detail on what they would put into Dark Sun on the Happy Fun Hour, like he had already written out the draft. We'll see it sooner or latter.




I read somewhere that Mike Mearls has actually made enough rules to run Dark Sun for a campaign in the office.

I don't think they'd just drop a PDF Dark Sun without any hints though. The Mystic is kind of the psionic and I don't think it's been updated, and Dark Sun hasn't been mentioned in some time on Talk or Dragon+.

It's definitely come to come eventually but they probably want to launch it right, so I'd say next year is the earliest.


----------



## Parmandur (May 16, 2019)

Matthia05718273 said:


> I read somewhere that Mike Mearls has actually made enough rules to run Dark Sun for a campaign in the office.
> 
> I don't think they'd just drop a PDF Dark Sun without any hints though. The Mystic is kind of the psionic and I don't think it's been updated, and Dark Sun hasn't been mentioned in some time on Talk or Dragon+.
> 
> It's definitely come to come eventually but they probably want to launch it right, so I'd say next year is the earliest.




They gave very little indication about Eberron before the Wayfinder's Guide dropped. A similar Dark Sun book, with fluff and recycled art, would not be unprecedented as a sudden surprise release.


----------



## jgsugden (May 16, 2019)

This may not be the time of a Dark Sun release, but I expect that when we get it, it will be a bomb drop, not something that they hint at obviously for a while.

Personally, I wish they'd do these settings in two sets of books: One set that is edition agnostic and just tells us the story of the setting, and another that is crunch and mechanics driven with the stats, monsters, items, etc... They're better off wieh the approach Keith Baker has held for Eberron: Create a point in time where it is best to start adventuring in a campaign world and just build your products with the assumption that all campaigns will start at that key point in time.  I'd much rather they reboot the FR back to when it all began, they brought Dark Sun back to the time of the first novel, they restarted the War of the Lance in Krynn, etc... than tell the poor sequels they've been telling for so long.


----------



## Urriak (May 16, 2019)

jgsugden said:


> This may not be the time of a Dark Sun release, but I expect that when we get it, it will be a bomb drop, not something that they hint at obviously for a while.
> 
> Personally, I wish they'd do these settings in two sets of books: One set that is edition agnostic and just tells us the story of the setting, and another that is crunch and mechanics driven with the stats, monsters, items, etc... They're better off wieh the approach Keith Baker has held for Eberron: Create a point in time where it is best to start adventuring in a campaign world and just build your products with the assumption that all campaigns will start at that key point in time.  I'd much rather they reboot the FR back to when it all began, they brought Dark Sun back to the time of the first novel, they restarted the War of the Lance in Krynn, etc... than tell the poor sequels they've been telling for so long.




Yeah not a fan of this approach. I'm much more comfortable with the standard that Ravnica set (I'll try this for Eberron);
Chapter 1: Character Creation
2: Dragonmarked Houses
3: Eberron Setting/Lore
4: Creating Adventures in Eberron
5: Treasures
6: Friends and Foes

As for rebooting the main settings... I'm actually happier if they don't do this and treat older modules/adventures as past events. That doesn't mean move forward in time by 500 years, but 5 is fine.

The reason I like this more is because a setting book should provide the DM enough context that they can redo (or reinvent) past modules and history with their own spin if they choose. It also allows the D&D team to create new adventures that build off past events.

So for FR, we've had several adventures that are completely new and don't complicate the timeline. You can choose to play those, or a DM can play in the setting's past if they enjoy that time period more (a Kickstarter for Baldur's Gate does pretty much this). It provides more options overall for DMs.

An example of how to do this is Dark Sun, where the setting book says how many Sorcerer Kings are still alive (I think the past modules still haven't killed Nibenay, Hamanu, Kalid-Ma, Lalali-Pu, Oronis, or Daskinor). But it also provides history on the dead ones and past events so DMs can do that time period. But the first Dark Sun adventure assumes that the sorcerer kings killed in older modules are dead, so makes the villain Hamanu who still lives.

We are probably getting a little off topic though.


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## vecna00 (May 16, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> It also strikes me that a playtest PDF like the Eberron book might be announced at some point: Dark Sun, perhaps?




I have a feeling that'll be the way they do things going forward for settings that either require testing or are low on the popularity scale. Put out a PDF with all of the required information, open it up on DM's Guild, and move on. If it sells like hot cakes and has overwhelming positive feedback, they may do a hardcover for the setting or an AP.

As far them  releasing a Dark Sun PDF this year, I don't think that's likely...no matter how much I want it to happen. Psionics just aren't ready yet unfortunately.

We're definitely getting our AP that involves the Nine Hells of Baator and Zariel, that probably starts in Baldur's Gate. 

I can see getting a setting book, my money is on Planescape or Spelljammer (no matter how much Nathan Stewart says "No")

The boxed set is probably just another starter set for the Realms.

Wild card product: something sci-fi.

I like that Eberron is getting a lot of love in the predictions, but I don't think they're going to go that hard on it this edition. We'll see more Eberron, I just don't think it's going to be both a hardcover setting book and a boxed set. Probably an AP first.


----------



## gyor (May 17, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> They gave very little indication about Eberron before the Wayfinder's Guide dropped. A similar Dark Sun book, with fluff and recycled art, would not be unprecedented as a sudden surprise release.




 Maybe a PDF,  but not a physical book. Personally I think it won't happen till we get another Psion update from UA.


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## gyor (May 17, 2019)

vecna00 said:


> I have a feeling that'll be the way they do things going forward for settings that either require testing or are low on the popularity scale. Put out a PDF with all of the required information, open it up on DM's Guild, and move on. If it sells like hot cakes and has overwhelming positive feedback, they may do a hardcover for the setting or an AP.
> 
> As far them  releasing a Dark Sun PDF this year, I don't think that's likely...no matter how much I want it to happen. Psionics just aren't ready yet unfortunately.
> 
> ...




 I don't think he said no to Planescape,  just Spelljammer. I guess we find out tomorrow.


----------



## vecna00 (May 17, 2019)

gyor said:


> I don't think he said no to Planescape,  just Spelljammer. I guess we find out tomorrow.




Definitely just "no" to Spelljammer. However, since he makes it a point to keep mentioning it, I'm pretty sure he's just trolling the hell out of us.


----------



## vecna00 (May 17, 2019)

Here's something interesting: there's a placeholder up on Amazon advertising tomorrow's stream.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0786966777/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_bibl_vppi_i44


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## Parmandur (May 17, 2019)

vecna00 said:


> Here's something interesting: there's a placeholder up on Amazon advertising tomorrow's stream.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0786966777/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_bibl_vppi_i44




They might count the miscellany set as one of the four products: it might even be the mentioned box set.


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## Parmandur (May 17, 2019)

So, guys, today's Dragon Talk had a Lore You Should Know talks about the Blood War, and it was very interesting.

Perkins goes into how the Devils need to collect souls to fight the Blood War, and nonchalantly drops the example of how on Avernus an entire city might be sucked in from the material plane for troops.

He then later mentioned how they at one point planned a counter-balance to Out of the Abyss where Asmodeus offered deals to surface cities to protect them from the demons in the Underdark.

I predict that the AP will involve a Diabolical plot to suck Baldur's Gate straight into Hell... descending into Zariel's realm, as it were.


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## Parmandur (May 17, 2019)

gyor said:


> Maybe a PDF,  but not a physical book. Personally I think it won't happen till we get another Psion update from UA.




Oh, yeah, I mean a playtest PDF.


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## Paul Farquhar (May 17, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> They might count the miscellany set as one of the four products: it might even be the mentioned box set.




I always thought "accessories" would make up at least one of the four. I think the box set will be a board game version of the main "Decent" AP. I think the adventure will go to Sigil and several other planes, but there won't be a full Planescape setting book. The fourth is most likely something Eberron.


----------



## vecna00 (May 17, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> So, guys, today's Dragon Talk had a Lore You Should Know talks about the Blood War, and it was very interesting.
> 
> Perkins goes into how the Devils need to collect souls to fight the Blood War, and nonchalantly drops the example of how on Avernus an entire city might be sucked in from the material plane for troops.
> 
> ...




That last line....I love the idea of that!


----------



## Azzy (May 17, 2019)

Paul Farquhar said:


> I think the box set will be a board game version of the main "Decent" AP.



I disagree on that. WotC has put out several D&D-related board-game based on their APs, but those have never been counted as part of the releases for D&D or taken up a slot in the D&D production schedule. Whatever the boxed set is, if it's being counted as one of the slots in the D&D production queue, then it's an actual D&D product.


----------



## GarrettKP (May 17, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> So, guys, today's Dragon Talk had a Lore You Should Know talks about the Blood War, and it was very interesting.
> 
> Perkins goes into how the Devils need to collect souls to fight the Blood War, and nonchalantly drops the example of how on Avernus an entire city might be sucked in from the material plane for troops.
> 
> ...




It should be noted that this LYSK segment is very old. It’s from Jan 2018 and they are replaying it on the eve of the stream, for obvious reasons. It was originally promoting Tome of Foes.

Also no, none of the four big announcements will be board games or accessories. They are books or box sets. They have done board games and dice sets for all the main adventures two years running and those have never been pushed as big product announcements. No reason for that to change here.


----------



## CapnZapp (May 17, 2019)

GarrettKP said:


> The big adventure being announced will be focused on the Bloodwar and will have a heavy focus on Zariel and her fall. This is also likely the followup to Out of the Abyss that Perkins mentioned in an interview last year.



If it actually is, as in you start the adventure at level 12 (?) or whatever, I'll happily eat your hat.


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## Parmandur (May 17, 2019)

GarrettKP said:


> It should be noted that this LYSK segment is very old. It’s from Jan 2018 and they are replaying it on the eve of the stream, for obvious reasons. It was originally promoting Tome of Foes.
> 
> Also no, none of the four big announcements will be board games or accessories. They are books or box sets. They have done board games and dice sets for all the main adventures two years running and those have never been pushed as big product announcements. No reason for that to change here.




True, but MToF almost certainly was laying the groundwork for this AP. Baldur's Gate, sucked into Avernus. Big bold prediction.

They count ancillary products as products, certainly: we'll see shortly.


----------



## Parmandur (May 17, 2019)

Azzy said:


> I disagree on that. WotC has put out several D&D-related board-game based on their APs, but those have never been counted as part of the releases for D&D or taken up a slot in the D&D production schedule. Whatever the boxed set is, if it's being counted as one of the slots in the D&D production queue, then it's an actual D&D product.




The "Dungeons & Dragons 2019 Annual Storyline Dice & Miscellany Set" product mentioned on the Amazon link is almost certainly the "box set," as having dice and various other things would fit the bill for what was described.


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## GarrettKP (May 17, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> The "Dungeons & Dragons 2019 Annual Storyline Dice & Miscellany Set" product mentioned on the Amazon link is almost certainly the "box set," as having dice and various other things would fit the bill for what was described.




It almost certainly isn’t. The Box Set is going to include more than just dice and maps. Which is exactly what the product page will be. They have done a dice set for the past two adventures and a maps set for Mad Mage and Ravnica. Those were never pushed as heavily as this box set is getting pushed.

People seem to assume that 4 products means they are including the dice sets or board games because they cannot seem to believe that WotC would push more than 3 books a year. But that precedent was broken last year when we got 4 major products. 

The same will happen this year, with 4 major books. But this year they are also doing a new Starter Set style box. They will also do dice sets for the major adventure and probably some map packs. Both those can be true without them having to be the same product. 

They are increasing production of their major RPG products (Books, Box Sets, anything with crunch and lore, aka not just more dice sets). There’s a reason why WotC just hired more designers.

Also note the Amazon product page lists it as a D&D Accessory. Accessories don’t get (and have never gotten) big announcement reveals. They get mentioned as a side note whenever the product they complement gets announced.


----------



## Parmandur (May 17, 2019)

GarrettKP said:


> It almost certainly isn’t. The Box Set is going to include more than just dice and maps. Which is exactly what the product page will be. They have done a dice set for the past two adventures and a maps set for Mad Mage and Ravnica. Those were never pushed as heavily as this box set is getting pushed.
> 
> People seem to assume that 4 products means they are including the dice sets or board games because they cannot seem to believe that WotC would push more than 3 books a year. But that precedent was broken last year when we got 4 major products.
> 
> ...




Well, can you elaborate on your reasoning for thinking that (serious question)? Stewart has previously said they were looking at 3-4 RPG main products this year, and Ghosts of Salmarsh, Acquisitions Inc., the "Major AP" and probably a setting book round it out. They said they would be announcing 4 "products" during this stream, but products is a broad category, and they produce a number of ancillary items. Yes, they did dice sets and map packs before. But are they really "pushing" this box set? I know they mentioned there would be a box with dice and nice goodies...and this product that Amazon has a placeholder pending announcement at the stream will almost certainly come in a box. Fits the bill. Heck, maybe it comes with an intro adventure, too.

They do already have a new intro product this year, incidentally.


----------



## Parmandur (May 17, 2019)

GarrettKP said:


> Also note the Amazon product page lists it as a D&D Accessory. Accessories don’t get (and have never gotten) big announcement reveals. They get mentioned as a side note whenever the product they complement gets announced.




If they announce their big book products for the Summer and Fall, and incidentally roll out two ancillary products, that is four products announced. I see no reason to suppose that all four must be big productions and not side notes to "The Descent", unless I am missing something...?


----------



## MechaTarrasque (May 17, 2019)

Now there is a placeholder for the book:  https://www.amazon.com/Dungeons-Dra...ryline&qid=1558102529&s=books&sr=1-1-fkmrnull.  It has the normal $49.99 price.


----------



## GarrettKP (May 17, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> Well, can you elaborate on your reasoning for thinking that (serious question)? Stewart has previously said they were looking at 3-4 RPG main products this year, and Ghosts of Salmarsh, Acquisitions Inc., the "Major AP" and probably a setting book round it out. They said they would be announcing 4 "products" during this stream, but products is a broad category, and they produce a number of ancillary items. Yes, they did dice sets and map packs before. But are they really "pushing" this box set? I know they mentioned there would be a box with dice and nice goodies...and this product that Amazon has a placeholder pending announcement at the stream will almost certainly come in a box. Fits the bill. Heck, maybe it comes with an intro adventure, too.
> 
> They do already have a new intro product this year, incidentally.




Stewart pushing 4 announcements (one of which is a surprise being saved for Sunday) indicates they are more than just accessories. He’s never pushed an accessory with an announcement. They have always been revealed in ads or online articles. 

And you don’t push 4 product announcements for your big streaming event if you only have 2 actual announcements people care about. No one is gonna be wowed by dice sets. 

Beyond that, we have evidence to assume the box set is much more than just a dice accessory to the main product. Otherwise why cut off his cohost on the last Spoilers and Swag? Everyone already assumes you’re making a dice set for your adventures. So saying “this dice set is awesome, it has so much more in it than the last one” isn’t a huge give away. 

And notice the language that was used on the stream. He didn’t refer to the product as a dice set. He referred to it as a box set. And he specifically said it’s better than the last box set they did. They have only ever done one (EDIT: Two with the Stranger Things Starter) other box set for 5e. So there’s no reason for him to have said that unless the new product is a revised or improved version of the starter set. 

The speculation will be over soon. Everything will be revealed. But I’m positive the new box set isn’t what’s listed on Amazon.


----------



## Burnside (May 17, 2019)

GarrettKP said:


> And notice the language that was used on the stream. He didn’t refer to the product as a dice set. He referred to it as a box set. And he specifically said it’s better than the last box set they did. They have only ever done one other box set for 5e. .




View attachment 106503


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## GarrettKP (May 17, 2019)

Burnside said:


> View attachment 106503




Fair enough! I'll amend the statement.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (May 17, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> If they announce their big book products for the Summer and Fall, and incidentally roll out two ancillary products, that is four products announced. I see no reason to suppose that all four must be big productions and not side notes to "The Descent", unless I am missing something...?




People wanting to build up their expectations to ridiculous levels, so they have something to complain about for the rest of the year?


----------



## Parmandur (May 17, 2019)

Paul Farquhar said:


> People wanting to build up their expectations to ridiculous levels, so they have something to complain about for the rest of the year?




I was seriously wondering if I was missing something: they are certainly amping up thee game this year.


----------



## gyor (May 17, 2019)

GarrettKP said:


> Stewart pushing 4 announcements (one of which is a surprise being saved for Sunday) indicates they are more than just accessories. He’s never pushed an accessory with an announcement. They have always been revealed in ads or online articles.
> 
> And you don’t push 4 product announcements for your big streaming event if you only have 2 actual announcements people care about. No one is gonna be wowed by dice sets.
> 
> ...




 It could be a Setting Box Set,  say for Eberron,  instead of just a Starter Set.


----------



## GarrettKP (May 17, 2019)

gyor said:


> It could be a Setting Box Set,  say for Eberron,  instead of just a Starter Set.




Theoretically yes. I'd still put my money on it being a new starter set, but specifically for whatever setting they announce. All signs point to Eberron.


----------



## GarrettKP (May 17, 2019)

So looks like we were spot on with the Adventure book. "Baldur's Gate: Descent Into Avernus"

https://www.renaud-bray.com/Livres_...+Book+(D&D+Adventure),COLLECTIF,9780786966769

One correct. 3 more to go. Shout out to Parmandur for being on the Baldurs Gate connection before anyone!


----------



## Parmandur (May 17, 2019)

GarrettKP said:


> So looks like we were spot on with the Adventure book. "Baldur's Gate: Descent Into Avernus"
> 
> https://www.renaud-bray.com/Livres_...+Book+(D&D+Adventure),COLLECTIF,9780786966769
> 
> One correct. 3 more to go. Shout out to Parmandur for being on the Baldurs Gate connection before anyone!




Boom!

They just kept talking about Baldur's Gate, and getting way too detailed.

Interestign that the name pattern matches "Waterdeep: Dragon Heist."

 [MENTION=1]Morrus[/MENTION] might warrant a new story for your front page.


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## GarrettKP (May 17, 2019)

The naming convention makes me think the mystery 4th product is another adventure. Like Mad Mage. Maybe detailing the rest of the layers of hell?


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## Parmandur (May 17, 2019)

GarrettKP said:


> The naming convention makes me think the mystery 4th product is another adventure. Like Mad Mage. Maybe detailing the rest of the layers of hell?




I honestly wouldn't it past Perkins to turn the Nine Hells into a Cosmic Megadungeon (which it kinda already is).


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## Prakriti (May 17, 2019)

_Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus_ doesn't have the same ring to it as _Waterdeep: Dragon Heist_, but maybe they're hoping that "Baldur's Gate" will draw more people in, particularly those who are familiar with the video games. 

It also seems odd to give equal prominence to a mundane human city and the Nine Hells. I mean, one of these things is a LOT more exciting than the other...


----------



## Parmandur (May 17, 2019)

Prakriti said:


> _Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus_ doesn't have the same ring to it as _Waterdeep: Dragon Heist_, but maybe they're hoping that "Baldur's Gate" will draw more people in, particularly those who are familiar with the video games.
> 
> It also seems odd to give equal prominence to a mundane human city and the Nine Hells. I mean, one of these things is a LOT more exciting than the other...




Well, you have to start somewhere: also, based on my intuition after listening to Perkin's LYSK attached to yesterday's Dragon Talk, the whole dang city might be under threat of descending into Avernus. Which is Metal AF.


----------



## GarrettKP (May 17, 2019)

https://www.renaud-bray.com/Livres_...s+Kit+(D&D+Boxed+Set),COLLECTIF,9780786966837

Seems like we were both wrong on the Box Set. The site lists the dice and miscellany separate from this: The Essentials Kit. 

So maybe a new revised version of the starter set, but not Eberron specific it seems.


----------



## Parmandur (May 17, 2019)

GarrettKP said:


> https://www.renaud-bray.com/Livres_...s+Kit+(D&D+Boxed+Set),COLLECTIF,9780786966837
> 
> Seems like we were both wrong on the Box Set. The site lists the dice and miscellany separate from this: The Essentials Kit.
> 
> So maybe a new revised version of the starter set, but not Eberron specific it seems.




Well, the name to me suggests maybe more of a neo-Expert Set: not an intro product, but a second product for folks who bought the Starter Set and want more. Something for folks with no FLGS, who buy their Magic & DnD stuff at Target or whatnot.
 [MENTION=1]Morrus[/MENTION] more grist for the mill.


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## GarrettKP (May 17, 2019)

I'm taking half credit for my guess if the Essentials Kit is a new Starter Set. Got the setting wrong but whatever. 

Which means I need to hit on one more guess to be over 50%. Really pulling hard for the Eberron hardcover now.


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## nicolas.carrillos (May 17, 2019)

I hope your guess is correct. I love Eberron (the setting I always DM in), and my fingers are crossed for an Eberron hardcover. Will all four products be revealed today? 







GarrettKP said:


> I'm taking half credit for my guess if the Essentials Kit is a new Starter Set. Got the setting wrong but whatever.
> 
> Which means I need to hit on one more guess to be over 50%. Really pulling hard for the Eberron hardcover now.


----------



## GarrettKP (May 17, 2019)

nicolas.carrillos said:


> I hope your guess is correct. I love Eberron (the setting I always DM in), and my fingers are crossed for an Eberron hardcover. Will all four products be revealed today?




No. At least one reveal is being saved for Sunday night. Not sure when each will be announced outside of the Adventure, which will be announced tonight at the opening ceremonies.


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## gyor (May 17, 2019)

nicolas.carrillos said:


> I hope your guess is correct. I love Eberron (the setting I always DM in), and my fingers are crossed for an Eberron hardcover. Will all four products be revealed today?




 Who says the Essentials Box Set is a beginner box?  It could be anything. Starter Sets are labeled as such. What does WotC concider Essential? The PHB at least? 

 The title is just too vague. 

 As for Baldur's Gate: Avernus I think it's going to be a hard pass on that one too. I have an excellent Swordcoast Adventure already,  the two part Waterdeep,  a more interesting city then Baldur's Gate,  which is one of the least interesting cities on the Swordcoast,  which is one of the least interesting regions in FR,  a great,  but wasted setting. 

 I have no idea why I would want this adventure. 

 I pledged for the Arcana of the Ancients, Odyssey of the Dragonlords,  and a Korea inspired D&D 5e Setting all of which appear to being showing more vision and imagination then WotC,while using the 5e system. Oh and I bought the 5e Scarred Lands and next month will likely buy Midguard 5e. So until WotC starts showing some vision and starts making better products and meaningfully moves AWAY from the Swordcoast to other parts of FR, I will focus on 3rd party settings. None of the books so far this year have interested me in the slightest. Not even a player options book, and no Aquistions Inc book does not count, I'm not a fan of Aquistions Inc.

 Maybe I will have better luck next year.


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## Morrus (May 17, 2019)

gyor said:


> it's going to be a hard pass on that one too.




Is that your favourite phrase?


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## gyor (May 17, 2019)

Morrus said:


> Is that your favourite phrase?




 Far from it,  normally I don't say that honestly,  it's rescent development.


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## MonsterEnvy (May 17, 2019)

gyor said:


> Who says the Essentials Box Set is a beginner box?  It could be anything. Starter Sets are labeled as such. What does WotC concider Essential? The PHB at least?
> 
> The title is just too vague.
> 
> ...




I think it's too early to to say pass.


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## vecna00 (May 17, 2019)

Even if it didn't leak, that Baldur's Gate logo in the upper-right corner of the screen is a dead giveaway!


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