# Kickstarter.com - etc.



## Morrus

We have a reasonable projected budget for both ZEITGEIST and SANTIAGO - higher than for WotBS, but not "pie in the sky" high.

We're mulling over other ideas for raising funds.  We can produce them as is (so there's no danger of them not appearing and not being awesome), but the more money we have, the better the APs will be - in terms of more text, more art, etc.

Given that these adventure paths are to be available to EN World silver subscribers, what are peoples' feelings on Kickstarter projects and such?  For those not familiar, a Kickstarter project allows you to pledge a certain donation, and if the target is reached we use the money to do awesome stuff.  We'd specify what that is, of course (it's a thought, not a plan right now); and donators would get some kind of reward.  Traditionally, in RPG projects, this tends to be advance access to the product or NPCs named after/by you, plus your name in the credits - nothing erath-shattering, but nice to show your friends.  

Thoughts?  Is there enough interest in such a thing to make it worth even considering?  If we could raise a few extra thousand dollars (we spent about $2K on each for WotBS, plus another $1K or so to update each to 4E) we could splash out and make these things even better than they will be - and they'll be awesome anyway!


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## FunkBGR

I'm a big fan of Kickstarters, having consistently supported Greg Stolze and his work using the website, and participated numerous times in Open Design. 

If you can define what exactly the bonus stuff is, and what you'll do with the money, I think it'd be great.


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## Morrus

FunkBGR said:


> If you can define what exactly the bonus stuff is, and what you'll do with the money, I think it'd be great.




Yup.  It's just a vague idea right now - I'm just trying to see if it's even worth thinking about.  I'm thinking things like:

NPC named after you
Extra exclusive bonus material (sidequest-style) that will never be available any other way


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## OnlineDM

Sure, I'd be interested in supporting the new campaigns (well, ZEITGEIST; I'm not a big sci-fi guy).


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## Jan van Leyden

What about a discount for the printed version once it's released? That might get you my extra contribution.


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## Morrus

Jan van Leyden said:


> What about a discount for the printed version once it's released? That might get you my extra contribution.




That just makes it a loan!


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## Jan van Leyden

Morrus said:


> That just makes it a loan!




But you set the interest rate.


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## twilsemail

Morrus,

Would this be split into two projects?  I'm interested in pushing Zeitgeist along, but my desire for SciFi TT in the past few years has waned significantly.  I certainly expect ENworld will make a quailty product, but it's just not my cuppa tea.


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## TarionzCousin

I would kick in $25 to Zeitgeist to get exclusive content and an NPC named after my, erm, "cousin."


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## Morrus

In answer to questions:

1) Yes, they'd be separate.

2) It wouldn't get you a discount, as that defeats the purpose of the endeavour which is to increase available funds, not to look after it for you and then give it back.   So we'd _spend_ the money on the APs.


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## alms66

Kickstarter is ing stupid.  You either do what you want to do and have the money to do it, or  you.  Period.


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## Morrus

alms66 said:


> Kickstarter is ing stupid. You either do what you want to do and have the money to do it, or  you. Period.




Using profanity in reply to the site owner who set the no-profanity rules in the first place is not an optimum strategy. Please do *not* do that again, or you will be asked to leave. If you are unclear as to the conduct we require on this forum, please review the rules.

Other than the profanity, also please review your posting style and adopt a more polite demeanour.  Again, if this is not clear, please review the rules you agreed to.


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## falcarrion

Kickstarter is a great website. If you want to see how suscesful you can be check out the " PadPivot ". mind you they are an exception to the rule. Maps of  Mastery " Deep Vistas " was funded this way. I've only seen one complaint about what percent the website keeps if it is funded. I did a pledge for the PadPivot myself. I'll be getting one once they start shipping.


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## alms66

Morrus said:


> Using profanity in reply to the site owner who set the no-profanity rules in the first place is not an optimum strategy. Please do *not* do that again, or you will be asked to leave. If you are unclear as to the conduct we require on this forum, please review the rules.
> 
> Other than the profanity, also please review your posting style and adopt a more polite demeanour.  Again, if this is not clear, please review the rules you agreed to.



My bad - I thought since the profanity was going to be "bleeped" anyway - it wasn't a big deal...


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## Wednesday Boy

I think that's a great idea.  It seems like the potential if it gets enough support is well worth the little investment (writing up the ad) that you have to put in.

And I LOVE the idea of naming an NPC or similar pledge levels.  Even a meager contribution to the world/story like that is much more enticing to me than extra material.  I think creating an NPC would be a very enticing pledge level too.


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## twilsemail

Did anything ever come of this?  I'd love to contribute if it's possible.


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## Morrus

Nothing as yet.  I'm still undecided, and not convinced it'll work.  I'll talk to Ryan about it.


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## Siberys

I'd be game for a pledge, especially if I could get an NPC named after/by me... I have many ideas, and one in particular seems apropos to the feel of the setting...


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## Wednesday Boy

Siberys said:


> I'd be game for a pledge, especially if I could get an NPC named after/by me...




Likewise!!


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## the-golem

This worked for GM Sarli and his e20: System Evolved project: Game Design: "e20: System Evolved" Roleplaying Game by Gary M. Sarli — Kickstarter

So, if it worked for him, why wouldn't it work for you?


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## Morrus

Yeah, it's just a case of getting the amounts and rewards right without compromising the actual adventure path's integrity. 

I did come up with this a while back, but it was only some rough thoughts and I'm not convinced by it; it's just some musings really:



> *Project Description*
> 
> ZEITGEIST Adventure Path Kickstarter Booster Project!
> 
> ZEITGEIST, an adventure path for D&D 4th Edition and Pathfinder RPG, is going to be awesome anyway. But we'd like to make it even more awesome! With this Kickstarter Project, we hope to increase funding for the project to the point where we can break the Critical Awesomeness Barrier. So here's what we're doing:
> 
> We are going to try to raise an additional $10,000 (that's about a 25% budget increase) on top of the ludicrous amounts of money we've already budgeted for this adventure path. We'll be using that extra money for extra stuff, adding more color art, more player handouts, more words, more everything!
> 
> So, kick in some money and let's see what we can do!
> 
> *Project Rewards*
> 
> Here's what you get!
> 
> For *$25* we will name a minor (non-statted) NPC after you. The NPC could pop up anywhere throughout the adventure path.
> For *$100* we will name a statted NPC after you. You will also gain access to the private "development" forum where you can see how things are going.
> For *$500* we will name, stat, and illustrate (in full-color) an NPC after you!
> For *$1000* or more we will name an important, permanent landmark or location after you. We don't expect many - if any - of these, but how cool will it be when your PCs visit a town named after you, or a monument dedicated to you?
> 
> For all of the above, we will discuss the inclusion with you, and reserve the right to ensure that we work out an appropriate addition to our adventure path; this means that we will ensure that there are no silly or immersion-breaking inclusions. By donating, you accept that this process is a to-and-fro between you and us, and that the result must be appropriate to our adventure path.
> 
> *Links*
> 
> [URL]http://www.enworld.org/ap/zeitgeist.html[/URL]




Don't get me wrong, I can see that it's a great way to increase the budget. But I just can't see enough people doing it to make a difference. We really would need to increase the budget by a good 25% or so to make the differences significantly noticeable (I mean, $1000 would get us a few pieces of colour art spread over an entire adventure path - you probably wouldn't even notice). It's the fact that it needs to be so much to make it worth doing that's the issue.

And, of course, not then turning rond and spending the money simply sending out hardback copies of stuff to people - if we're just physically giving the money back again in the form of material product or discounts, it's just a loan.  If I wanted a loan, I could get one easily enough without all the hassle.


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## Siberys

Looking at that, I may even be willing to drop a c-note to make sure I have a psuedo-important npc.


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## Morrus

Siberys said:


> Looking at that, I may even be willing to drop a c-note to make sure I have a psuedo-important npc.




A "c-note"? Wassat, then?


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## twilsemail

Morrus said:


> A "c-note"? Wassat, then?




A $100 bill.

For the record.  I'd also be willing.  At this point I'm eying up my accounts figuring how much I could actually toss your way.


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## Morrus

Well, if another 98 people like you express an interest in that, we may be able to do this!


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## InkwellIdeas

Morrus said:


> Well, if another 98 people like you express an interest in that, we may be able to do this!




I've been having a good experience with my project on Kickstarter.  And while Kickstarter encourages the special, unique sorts of rewards that you listed I think letting people essentially pre-order/pre-subscribe would result in a higher number of pledges.  You could mix them in with your special rewards so I could get a full set of pdfs at $x or get the full set + something special at $x+y.  Get physical copies at $z but get that and something special at $z+y.  Etc.

And all it costs you is 8-10%.  (3-5% for Amazon's charging of cards and 5% to Kickstarter.)  That's very good considering what drivethrurpgnow will charge or what it costs to put it in stores, although the on-line cut doesn't matter if you're running your own on-line store.    In any case, you will get some extra buzz about it, you also get some idea of the likely level of success and you get an extra time window to market your product. (Instead of waiting until it is nearly complete.)  

But you probably know the business better than I do, so if I'm missing something please comment.


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## Wednesday Boy

Morrus said:


> Well, if another 98 people like you express an interest in that, we may be able to do this!




Make that 97!


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## Morrus

Would people expect to receive the AP itself as part of the reward?  Because obviously if we're simply shifting the purchase venue from here to there, it's not actually raising _additional_ funds; it's just generating revenue in a different place.

The only way I could see it working is if the actual AP wasn't included as a reward - so you'd still have to subscribe/purchase it separately.


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## OnlineDM

Personally, I plan to keep on subscribing to EN World as a silver subscriber (once my copper runs out any day now) indefinitely. In addition, I would sign up to kick in $100 to ZEITGEIST (though I would quite possibly do that even without the NPC benefit, just because I want to support the project). That's just me, though - I have disposable income, and I'm willing to put it toward hobbies that I care about.


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## twilsemail

I don't really think it's reasonable to think the AP is included as a reward.  This was an offer to contribute above and beyond what we might otherwise to improve the overall quality of the product, neh?

In the least, for my money, I'd be expecting an NPC named after me and that's about it.  Later on, for more money I'd expect books and the like.


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## Morrus

OK, so we're setting this up now.  We'll see what happens.

We won't delay anything or even act like anything different is happening until the end of the Kickstarter fundraising period; we'll just continue as normal assuming nothing it happening.  

I'll let you know when it's live.


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## InkwellIdeas

I still think that you're not losing anything by making the product itself (in some version) available through Kickstarter backers.  Yes, kickstarter is taking 5%, but that's pretty reasonable when you consider what percentage is taken by drivethrurpgnow and physical stores. Yes, a large percentage of those people who pick those rewards may buy anyway, but why not give them another opportunity and time window to do so?

You could do:
$25 name an NPC
$X get a softcover printed version of all Y volumes in the adventure path.
$25+X name an NPC and get the softcovers
$100 name a statted NPC
$100+X name statted NPC and get the softcovers
etc.

That said, I realize there may be other factors in your case because it could impact your subscription model, maybe you don't ever want to do a printed version, etc.

Oh... or you could do some other bonus things... like a special map (physical or electronic) of the game's world/area only available through Kickstarter.  Sure the adventures and sourcebooks may have a similar map, but maybe this is in a different style or is larger or is the only map that combines the whole setting in one place...


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## Morrus

indyjoe said:


> I still think that you're not losing anything by making the product itself (in some version) available through Kickstarter backers. Yes, kickstarter is taking 5%, but that's pretty reasonable when you consider what percentage is taken by drivethrurpgnow and physical stores.




Most people get it via subscription right here at EN World. I don't tend to charge myself a percentage! 

We've got a few ideas at the moment. One of them is an exclusive invitation to a game of the first adventure (for those who will be at Gen Con) and some other stuff.

We should have it live shortly.


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## OnlineDM

Morrus said:


> We've got a few ideas at the moment. *One of them is an exclusive invitation to a game of the first adventure (for those who will be at Gen Con)* and some other stuff.




Now THAT is a fantastic idea. I will be at my first GenCon ever this year, and I will be happy to pony up for a spot at a table to play the first adventure. Will Ryan Nock ([MENTION=63]RangerWickett[/MENTION]) be the DM? That would be pretty slick - I'd love to meet him in person after running through the play-by-post play test of the early adventures with him.


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## Morrus

OnlineDM said:


> Will Ryan Nock ( @RangerWickett ) be the DM?




Yup.  And I'll be a fellow player.

That'll be one of the "big" donation rewards, though - the $500 or so level.  We can only accomodate a very small number of people at a game table.


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## OnlineDM

Understood. Hmm, how rich do I feel...


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## Morrus

Well, for what it's worth, it's launched.

ZEITGEIST Adventure Path Kickstarter Booster Project! by Morrus — Kickstarter

Spread the word!  Remember, if we don't make the 10K goal, we get nothing.


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## Wednesday Boy

$9,900 to go!


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## twilsemail

Kickstarter is arguing with me about wether or not I can pledge.  I'll try again in a few hours from a different machine and hope that solves it.


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## Morrus

Awesome! 

[Edit - simulpost! Awesome to Wednesday Boy, not to Kickstarter arguing with twilsemail!]


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## renau1g

While having less disposible $'s lying around right now with three little ones in daycare, I've tossed some money into the pot. If I was heading to Gencon I'd likely try to find the $500 to get into that game, but not in the cards now. Good luck


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## TheAuldGrump

Heh, I just Kicked you over $2,000.  If this succeeds then there might be an Auld Grump wandering around Zeitgeist.

I went and plugged Zeitgeist on a few forums as well.

The Auld Grump


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## Morrus

Awesome!

We're 20% of the way there with 36 days to go.  Means we need to average about $225 per day until the deadline.


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## gideonpepys

I would certainly consider signing up through Kickstarter if there was just a little bit more info about the project out there at the moment.  When might we expect to see more such teasers - only after Kickstarter subscription is closed, or before the deadline?


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