# Good rant on the news page



## rigur (Sep 4, 2004)

Keep up the good work Russ I like what you do.

R


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## 2WS-Steve (Sep 4, 2004)

As a fan and ex-publisher I want to say thanks to you and all the other people that make ENWorld possible. This website and its community adds a remarkable amount of fun to the game.

Regarding the ENnies: some of the responses would have worn out my patience a long time ago. Christ, people won't even pay for their own bloody shipping and are trying to foist off reading a hundred books in PDF format on unpaid judges...

My suggestion, if you decide to keep doing the awards, just establish your own rules that you think fair and are manageable. If a company doesn't want to participate that's fine. Movie studios can abstain from the Oscars too.


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## Syntallah (Sep 4, 2004)

I hereby go on record as saying THANKS A MILLION! for what you do here.  I have ENworld as my homepage for cryin' out loud.  And I am trying to become a community supporter as well...


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## Eternalknight (Sep 4, 2004)

While I liked Russ standing up for himself, there is one thing I have to disagree with:



> So, you know, there's this website. EN World, I think it's called. Nothing major, just a guy who runs a website which reports the latest d20 industry news and stuff.




EN World IS a major thing, and not only to publishers, but to fans as well.  The thing is, people EXPECT to be able to get the news here, and as that has been happening for quite sometime, people do take it for granted.  Obviously its not the fans bothering you, Russ, but EN World certainly is a major deal to many people.  

Maybe some sort of change in philosophy is needed; publishers who wish to submit their own scoops might have to pay a fee.  Otherwise, only things that the you deem newsworthy get posted. Or maybe its time to walk away for a little while (please don't!) and let someone else handle it, though I know you do it 'coz you love it.  It's easy to tell you are stressed out, and that is not a good way to be.


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## Plane Sailing (Sep 4, 2004)

Eternalknight said:
			
		

> While I liked Russ standing up for himself, there is one thing I have to disagree with:
> 
> EN World IS a major thing,




I think Morrus might have been using irony there


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## Eternalknight (Sep 4, 2004)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> I think Morrus might have been using irony there




Hmm.  You are right.  I think I may have had a bit too much rum this afternoon....


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## Stereofm (Sep 4, 2004)

A very good rant. It is good to see that some people still think RPGs are a hobby, and not just corporate money maker.

The part about WOTC is fine too : while the graphic quality has improved greatly, most of their current products have a cold soulless feeling. Kind of reflects a general attitude of the company.

And then : people complaining about their products not being spoken of on EN should do a minimum : like entering their products on the products review page for instance...

I love EN World, this is THE best place for RPGs and D&D.

Keep up the great stuff.


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## 2WS-Steve (Sep 4, 2004)

One more thing.

If WotC thinks that it should sweep the awards, they're arrogant, naive, and, frankly, stupid. Expensive graphics, writers, and shiny paper no more guarantee awards than $100 million dollar budgets guarantee a movie studio an Oscar sweep. Just look at Good Will Hunting or The Usual Suspects.


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## Edward Kann@StoryART (Sep 4, 2004)

I'm brand new around here and I have already made some great new friends, learned a lot about .pdf publishing for d20 and got some great support with writers and artists for my project.

Thank you guys.  You can count on me to support the site with some donations (wish they could be more) as soon as pay day rolls around.

Hang in there.

Edward Kann
StoryART


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## mroberon1972 (Sep 4, 2004)

I am sincerly sorry if I even distantly had anything to do with that rant.  I don't think that I've thought ENWorld owed me anything, but it would seem an easy trap to fall into.

And if it was not myself that caused such bile, I'm still sorry you were treated badly enough to cause that kind of rage.

John Bowden
The Fool
Mr. Oberon
"Don't hit us!"


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## RangerWickett (Sep 4, 2004)

Remember folks that this is still a civil place.  Russ's grandma will no doubt chide him heartily for what he said, so while we can all grin that he said it, let's not start swinging angry comments ourselves.  Comment however you like as long as you keep it civil, please.


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## mroberon1972 (Sep 4, 2004)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> Remember folks that this is still a civil place.  Russ's grandma will no doubt chide him heartily for what he said, so while we can all grin that he said it, let's not start swinging angry comments ourselves.  Comment however you like as long as you keep it civil, please.




Huh?  Wha'di'I'say?


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## RangerWickett (Sep 4, 2004)

Oh, I wasn't complaining about anything in particular.  I just thought it'd be good to make sure things don't get out of hand here, just in case.  *grin*


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## Aristotle (Sep 4, 2004)

First off, good rant Morrus. It has to feel good to get that much weight off of your chest.

I'm not a 'fanboy'. I don't really follow any specific game designers or publishers. I buy what appeals to me, and what I find to be a quality product. No publisher, not even WotC, is above that level of scrutiny. And I rely on the reviews and discussions here at ENworld to help me form a baseline opinion (modified by my own research) about a product.

*Without ENworld I would most likely never know about you 3rd party publishers. Nor would I find reason to purchase 50% of the WotC stuff in any sort of a hury. ENworld sells your products with or without your involvement. Get involved!*

I enjoy the d20 setting, so I'd likely collect it even if ENworld wasn't here... but its this community that keeps me playing the game. Its this community that keeps the game fresh for me. Otherwise the bulk of my spending dollar would likely have moved on to another game system by now... I suspect, whether they realize it or not, the same is true for others here.

It makes me angry that publishers would take advantage of, or simply snub, this community. I take personal offense at the idea that any publisher feels this community owes them anything more than what they are already getting. 

I'm seriously considering limiting the majority of my role playing funds to publishers who maintain active, and positive, presences here at ENworld. Screw the rest of them...


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## Steve Miller (Sep 4, 2004)

> Otherwise, only things that the you deem newsworthy get posted.




I would hope that this has been the case all along.

If it hasn't been, then people have been getting free rides they probably didn't deserve.

The rant struck me in a different way that it might have struck others. Between ca. 1995 and 1999, I developed a rather strong dislike for a wide swath of the gaming community. These gamers seemed to feel that they had a *right* to the labors put forth by game designers and artists, and that they shouldn't be obligated to *pay* anything for those creations.

It would appear that some of those gamers of 5-10 years ago are now running their own publishing companies. Now, they have a *right* to have their products promoted by third parties for free.


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## Tav_Behemoth (Sep 4, 2004)

As a gamer and a fan of EN World, I share everyone's dismay that Morrus has been treated so shabbily. This site has always played an important role for me, not just as a source of news and information about the game I love, but also as an miraculously friendly, civil, and decent community of people who share the love.  It's tragic that there's another side to that, although if I'd thought about it I should have known this would be the case and that it might relate to publishers, as publishers are one of the main interfaces the site must have with commercial activity. Money & commerce is usually one of the biggest problems for any utopian community, a category in which I think EN World rightfully belongs.

As a publisher, I feel like words alone won't do. There are ways everyone at EN World can support this community, like donating and posting messages that encourage and show gratitude for the people who make it possible. Publishers do more to create problems for Morrus; how can we do more in return, taking advantage of our unique role?

One way Morrus's rant mentions is linking to EN World via our websites. It's true that no one publisher's site matches the volume of traffic that EN World refers to us, but every bit counts, so it's something all of us should do.*

Another way would be to mention or thank EN World in our products. This would be especially valuable for print products, since these might reach people who aren't aware of the Web's greatest resources. Behemoth3 already has a "B3 Recommends" in our Horde Books (which is an active hyperlink in the PDF edition); EN World should have been mentioned there all along, and I'll fix the mistake in the next set of books.**

Other ideas about how publishers can make unique contributions?

- Tavis

* Full disclosure: while the B3 links page gives a link to EN World, it's not up on our site yet; will remind Nat the webmaster about it now!
** I very consciously don't want to use this as a self-promotional opportunity. Morrus is right; you don't _need_ any more stuff.


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## Berandor (Sep 4, 2004)

Morrus, regarding that foolish rant I have just one thing to tell you:

YOU ROCK!

And thank you for providing ENWorld!


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## Blue (Sep 4, 2004)

Darn good rant.

You know, the rant was aimed at the publishers, but as a gamer and daily reader on ENworld it reminds to so say:

Thank you!  ENWorld is great, and we really appreaciate it.

Cheers,
=Blue(23)


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## BiggusGeekus (Sep 4, 2004)

Just tossing in my support.

If there's anything ENWorld needs that I can help with, let me know.


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## Hand of Evil (Sep 4, 2004)

I would be lost without all of you...thank you.


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## Knightcrawler (Sep 4, 2004)

Thank You!!!  Thank You!!  Thank You!!!

ENWorld rocks and will be truely missed if you decide to walk away for a bit.


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## Menexenus (Sep 4, 2004)

*Me 3*

I just want to add to the tsunami of posters who all have the same viewpoint:

1. ENWorld rocks!
2. Morrus *really* rocks!
3. *Every* D20 publisher should lick Morrus's boots for all that he and ENWorld have done for them.

I think we're all in agreement here.  Motion carried!


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## Vampyrknight (Sep 4, 2004)

*A Hearty Thanks to ENWorld and All Its Work*

Morrus's rant is, quite simply, eye opening.  As a gamer and purchaser of d20 system products, I've long used this site as a way of to determine what products I buy and what to look forward to.  Almost on a daily basis (hurricanes not withstanding), there is some news of interest to look at.  Though I don't normally post too often on the messageboards (and barely can give them a glance with what must be done in a single day), when I have taken a look at them, there is a wealth of information, humor, and help, showing just how large this community is (and though large, yes, WotC still can't boast of the impressive size compared to ENWorld).

What this site is to many of us can't really be expressed in words.  That publishers and game designers (Monte Cook and the others Morrus mentioned not included, of course ) have become what they hated and see ENWorld and the valuable service it provides them only as a service Morrus should have to pay them for is absolutely despicable.  They have forgotten what makes any business, really, the customer, the very people that frequent sites like this.

Morrus has every right to rant on this.  Not only do some countries have laws protecting Free Speech (the U.S. even has a Constitutional Amendment for that purpose) but what these companies have done demands a wider response than just placating them and their fantastically large egos.  They need their eyes opened to just the problem they're creating by not supporting sites like this and further, by overlooking their customers.  That is, simply put, not good business.

It is the customers who buy the products and customers who continue to buy future products.  Customers buy products based on what others say about them but also based on the company producing it.  I tend to buy WotC stuff simply because, once upon a time, they did put out good products and some still are good.  Yes, they've gone the route of big business, stepping on the little guy and thinking they will always be around, not caring about who's buying their products because they think someone will just because it's them who produced it.  Alienating the consumers through that thinking only ends up causing companies to close down or other drastic measures.

In closing, I'd just like to add in one thing: Morrus, as already expressed on the boards hundreds of times before, this site and your work are invaluable to the gaming community and to d20 gamers specifically.  If the publishers and game designers don't see this, then it is there loss.  The fans support your site whole heartedly.

VampyrKnight


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## Elodan (Sep 4, 2004)

Excellent message/rant on the front page.  Morrus and ENWorld rock!


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## Emiricol (Sep 4, 2004)

Good lord!  Morrus, you provide a great community and yes, a service.  I love it here, and more importantly to any publishers out there listening - every 3rd party product I _have ever purchased, EVER_ has been due to reviews and more often, buzz, here at EN World.  _Every_ 3rd party product.  _All_ of them.

 Not sure how I can be more clear than that.


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## MEG Hal (Sep 4, 2004)

Menexenus said:
			
		

> I just want to add to the tsunami of posters who all have the same viewpoint:
> 
> 1. ENWorld rocks!
> 2. Morrus *really* rocks!
> ...




Not be be harping in on the lynching of d20 publishers but:

1. I agreed 100% until today--now I will have to see
2. I have met and drank with Russ and I do feel he is a really nice guy, I like him.
3. This is why I want to walk away from this "community".  I do not feel very welcome here when this is the undertone of this "community".

This is a sad day for me as a friend of this board.

I will not be back to this thread, but thought you should see both sides of the site.


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## Crothian (Sep 4, 2004)

Menexenus said:
			
		

> 3. *Every* D20 publisher should lick Morrus's boots for all that he and ENWorld have done for them.
> 
> I think we're all in agreement here.  Motion carried!




You are so far out in left field I can barely see you.  This is the type of responses that will end the community.  Things like this * will* drive away people.  Hal is truely one the best guys in gaming I have ever meet.  He is one of the few that will take time to participate and befriend a lot of the coimmunity through fun, good will, and participation.  He's reaction is to be expected when people post things like this.  The publishers should not have to do anything.  Sure, EN World has been good for them, but no one can truely say how good.  It differs company to company, person to person.  

With attitudes like this it even makes me question being here.


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## Lichtenhart (Sep 4, 2004)

MEG Hal said:
			
		

> I will not be back to this thread, but thought you should see both sides of the site.




If you happen to come back though, Hal, maybe you'd be pleased to know that not everyone has forgotten what you have done for this site too.

So Morrus *rocks* but surely Hal and co. *rock* too.

Russ was ranting, but we people should know a friend when we meet one.


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## Emiricol (Sep 4, 2004)

I wonder when "liking EN World" started meaning "hates D20 publishers"?  I surely don't.  Also not sure why publishers should lick Morrus' boots.  I think EN World and 3rd party publishers have kind of a symbiosis here, if they let themselves.


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## Piratecat (Sep 5, 2004)

If we ever say "d20 publishers ought to lick EN World's boots," and we're not playing a game of Paranoia at the time, then *I'M* out of here. Yeah, the site helps publishers -- and a lot of publishers help the site. As Emiricol says, we'd like a symbiosis and partnership with the folks who want to be here. 

I think what folks don't see is that there are a lot of haughty, demanding publishers who sometimes forget and treat us like it's our duty to post uneditied every press release they give us... and they never give anything back to the site. I don't have a lot of patience for those folks.


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## the Jester (Sep 5, 2004)

Russ, I love and appreciate all the work you do to maintain this site.  When you first took over from Eric I was worried that it would become something... I dunno, less cool than the old Eric Noah's 3eNaR site, but you kept the flame alive!

Thank you.  If you need to walk away, then do so, but know that you are appreciated.  If you're ever in my area, I'll take you out to dinner & drinks.


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## Steve Miller (Sep 5, 2004)

Menexenus said:
			
		

> 3. *Every* D20 publisher should lick Morrus's boots for all that he and ENWorld have done for them.




Oh please.


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## William Ronald (Sep 5, 2004)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> If we ever say "d20 publishers ought to lick EN World's boots," and we're not playing a game of Paranoia at the time, then *I'M* out of here. Yeah, the site helps publishers -- and a lot of publishers help the site. As Emiricol says, we'd like a symbiosis and partnership with the folks who want to be here.
> 
> I think what folks don't see is that there are a lot of haughty, demanding publishers who sometimes forget and treat us like it's our duty to post uneditied every press release they give us... and they never give anything back to the site. I don't have a lot of patience for those folks.





I agree with you, Piratecat.  I think on EN World first as a fan site with great news and features.

Mind you, I do understand about press releases having worked as a reporter.  Too often, I saw press releases that provided little information and some people essentially wanted three pages of the paper for an item submitted to a "business briefs" column.  Also, I have seen a share of haughty politicians and corporate executives, who reminded me of the phrase "petty kings of petty kingdoms."

I think Morrus has a right to be angry, but that he may have unintentionally hurt the feelings of people who respect him.  I hope that the current problems can be resolved with some honest dialogue.  I saw a major blowup on another message board resolved when different parties apologized to each other and had the courage to admit where they erred.  Perhaps Morrus and the publishers can work their way past their differences. I think that EN World benefits fans and publishers, and perhaps it is time to remember that there are good people on both sides of the debate.   Mark Clover, MEG Hal, Mark Plemmons, Sean K. Reynolds and many other people in the gaming industry have done a lot for EN World.   I have a great deal of respect for them and their work.  Perhaps it is best to remember that we can do more together than we can do separately.


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## rigur (Sep 5, 2004)

Well lets not forget that we need the publishers as much as they need us. But as in all relationships communication is needed to keep the relationship healthy and if one part in the relationship feels that they are beeing mistreated the only way to solve the problem is to speak up about it. 

R.


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## Tarrasque Wrangler (Sep 5, 2004)

rigur said:
			
		

> Well lets not forget that we need the publishers as much as they need us.



 To which I respectfully reply: say what?  I could never buy another book again and I'd shed no tears.  I've got at least twice as much game information as I'll ever need (and I'm far less of a slavish consumer than many here).  

 There's always a few products coming down the pipe that I'd like.  There's a couple publishers that I feel a certain customer loyalty towards.  But I don't _need_ any of 'em.  They need me and my dollar a *lot* more than I need them.



			
				Piratecat said:
			
		

> I think what folks don't see is that there are a lot of haughty, demanding publishers who sometimes forget and treat us like it's our duty to post uneditied every press release they give us... and they never give anything back to the site. I don't have a lot of patience for those folks.



 Who are these jerks, P-kitty?  Lemme at 'em!  I'll murdalize the joint!


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## Chaz (Sep 5, 2004)

Hey Morrus, I think this is the first time ive posted(or looked at?) another forum other than the software forum. I just wanted to let you know I realy enjoy Enworld and look forward to visiting it as often as possible for the latest D&D news. 

I dont blame you for taking a stand and posting that rant. I had no idea things were like that for you. I can guarentee you that I would have lost my cool in such a situation long ago...

Keep up the geat work. Your efforts are not wasted. Many people, like me, who are just fans and not publishers would miss ENworld if it wasnt around. And the D&D community as a whole would be poorer without it.   

Peace man. And I hope things get better soon.

Chaz.


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## PlotDevice (Sep 6, 2004)

*Appreciation*

I think it best if I merely state the facts. 

As a new pdf only publisher based in Sydney, Australia, I am almost entirely reliant upon sites like enworld to get the message out about what I am doing. The stats I look at on RPGnow indicate that fully 25% of the sales I have had so far have come from people pointed to my stuff from enworld directly. I am sure that the actual numbers (cookies being what they are) are higher.

I pay nothing for advertising, or membership, as I just don't have the money at the moment. But the availability of this site helps to fill the otherwise empty hole I would be sitting in, with my ideas unheard and unavailable.

So, if it hasn't been heard enough, please hear it again. This place rocks. You guys rock. And many thanks for everything.

Warm regards,
Evan


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## Morrus (Sep 6, 2004)

Chaz said:
			
		

> Hey Morrus, I think this is the first time ive posted(or looked at?) another forum other than the software forum. I just wanted to let you know I realy enjoy Enworld and look forward to visiting it as often as possible for the latest D&D news.
> 
> I dont blame you for taking a stand and posting that rant. I had no idea things were like that for you. I can guarentee you that I would have lost my cool in such a situation long ago...
> 
> ...



Yeah, yeah, I get it - I'll fix your front door! 

[Little NWN joke, there.]


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## James Heard (Sep 6, 2004)

If anyone is going to do any bootlicking, is there a line for that or something? Because bootlicking is what I'm all about - getting my boots licked just does it for me.


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## PlotDevice (Sep 6, 2004)

> If anyone is going to do any bootlicking, is there a line for that or something? Because bootlicking is what I'm all about - getting my boots licked just does it for me.
> __________________
> Since Light Travels Faster Than Sound, Some People Look Interesting Until You Hear Them Speak.




Never before has the irony of a poster's sig file been more aparent.


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## James Heard (Sep 7, 2004)

I guess grandma can't guarantee a sense of humor or politeness. Oh well, same to you. Snide away.


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## PlotDevice (Sep 7, 2004)

My grandmas are both long dead, but you weren't to know.
My own comments are received back with the same humour with which they were sent. (wow, boomerang comments! irony everywhere!)
And snide away? The snide is gone, if ever it was here. If posting a joke, I aim to receive a joke on me with grace. So I laugh at my own inequities, and apologise for any offense.
Warm Regards,
Evan


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## Lichtenhart (Sep 7, 2004)

PlotDevice said:
			
		

> My grandmas are both long dead, but you weren't to know.




Plot device, he didn't want to offend you talking about grandma. She is in fact Eric Noah's grandma, mentioned in the rules. He explained the rules saying we should abstain from anything his grandma could find unconvenient.


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## PlotDevice (Sep 7, 2004)

missed that, and no offense taken regardless. 
Evan


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## Talrinys (Sep 7, 2004)

After my first visit on EN World yesterday i read the rant, now first things first, i have never ever played a D&D game ever, for some reason im having a lot of trouble finding people to play with, i have bought a lot of products tho, as i like the rules sytems, and i will start DMing soon.
Now since christmas i have been buying Dragon, i have seen quite a few references to EN World already, and i have seen a lot more on some of the D20 websites i have been visiting. After my visit yesterday i thought this site rocked, i finally realized how much WOTC website sucks, and why there's so many people over here. From what i have seen the first 2 days, Morrus you have done an incredible jon in making this website, and building such a great community. If publishers aren't giving you credit, they should be shot, or they should be ordered by law to pay you royalties or something.
The whole WOTC skipping thing is just lame, i mean most people have one of their products which they just stinks, and a lot of alternative rules have been provided by D20 publishers for the rules that WOTC have created, they have no right in thinking that just because they own a license they are better than everyone else. WOTC themselves stated that D20 was intended to let people publish products to provide even more content for a great game, now if they can't accept when people are doing that, they need help, i mean come on.
I got so ***** mad when i read that line about them just making a PR guy respond to you, that is just stupid and lame, if they can't see how good a resource you are providing, honestly they shouldn't be making D&D.
Thanks a lot Morrus for a site which i will be using a lot the next months and maybe even years as i look for D20 products.


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