# Is ENWorld getting less friendly?



## buzz

The last couple of weeks, I feel like just about every thread I've been watching has at some point devolved into a system war, or overt snarkiness, or just plain had to be shut down by the mods. I've seen a lot of d20-bashing, and I've seen a lot of (sometimes retaliatory, sometimes not) bashing of other game systems. I've also noticed a lot of these threads involve people with very low post counts, as well as names I recognize from RPG.net.

Has anyone else noticed this? Has there been a mass exodus from RPG.net? Is ENWorld finally getting big enough that we're seeing an "AOL effect"?

Or is it just me?


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## Hand of Evil

While I have noticed something, it is something I have seen before.  I think there are periods, like high tides, that things get (can't put finger on it), the mods handle it and everything gets back to normal.  Maybe it is new users, or quite users that try and push the envolope.


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## Thornir Alekeg

OK, I have not been an EnWorlder for long so I cannot speak to the kind of history that you have, but I have found overall that these boards are much friendlier and civil than most I've encountered.  There are _some]/I] people who seem to provoke others, and from what I've seen, not all of them are relative newbies; there are some people with pretty high post counts who seem to be able to flame with the best of them.  

Personally I have just had to learn that there are certain people on the boards whom I will likely rarely agree with, and therefore I stay away from threads they start or from responding to comments they make, though sometimes it is difficult to restrain myself.

Honestly, if it is noticably worse than it used to be, it must have been a pretty amazing lovefest once upon a time, sorry I missed it._


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## Altamont Ravenard

Don't you know that this should be a Meta thread? Geeez!

(I'm kidding, buzz )

I'd go with the "many new users that don't quite know the rules / the ENWorld Etiquette / are used to other, less-friendly boards" theory. As HoE (teehee, never noticed) mentioned, people either realize that this place is different and adapt or move on.

AR


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## Dimwhit

Maybe the Nothingland attitude is leaking back on ENWorld...


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## Crothian

Yes, it has.  

It is still friendlier then most other messageboards, but not as friendly as it was just six months back.  It really seemed to start with the DrivethroughRPG fiascal and the hate that that generated.


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## Mouseferatu

I've gotta go with Hand of Evil here. Yes, I think there's been a change recently. But I'm also pretty sure it's a change I've seen before.

So long as our esteemed moderators can keep a lid on it, I think it'll calm down again shortly.


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## Desdichado

I've been gone for nearly three weeks, and the place goes to hell in a handbasket, apparently.  Is there a connection?  Hmm....


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## buzz

I guess I'll put my faith in HoE and Mouseferatu and hope that this is a passing thing. ENWorld is such a nice haven from places like RPG.net; I'd hate to see that end.


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## Pielorinho

Moved to Meta.

*Joshua*, you think YOU'RE worried.  Me, I'm wondering it's got something to do with me being a moderator! 

But honestly, I've seen similar waves come and go.  Tempers flare up, and then things cool back down.  If we all remember not to respond in kind to meanspiritedness and rudeness, it'll go a heckuva long way toward keeping the peace.

Daniel


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## Cheiromancer

Do the mods keep statistics about warnings, thread closures and the like?  Compare it with the number of posts, and you would be able to see if there is an actual wave, or if it is just a matter of being unlucky in what threads you encounter.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> I've been gone for nearly three weeks, and the place goes to hell in a handbasket, apparently.  Is there a connection?  Hmm....



 No no no.

I move to another country and then this place goes crazy. Its my fault, so nyah.


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## Umbran

With any group of people, given a reasonable length of time one would expect short-term variations in overall mood and style, just statistically speaking.  Shouldn't be too big a cause for concern.


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## Kaleon Moonshae

I must admit that I have gotten a little snarky lately, prolly a combination of real world issues and the shift in personality duringt hat drivethrough thing. I find that after all the rudeness and stuff that that started I have a shorter fuse than I used to. I think maybe it is just a wave like has been discussed, I know that when it was brought to my attention by a very kind and polite moderator (you know who you are) I realized what was going on and am trying to put a lid on it. I think there for a while I saw someone with a really low post count and thought "dtrpg" and didn't give them the chance they deserved. For that I apologize and from now on, just be sure to let me know when you think I'm being rude and I will usually back down and apologize, because I honestly don't mean to be.

I still feel that this board is nicer than most I have ever been a part of (which isn't many) or saw enough to know that I didn't want to be a part of (rpgnet). Keep up the good work, especially moderators like PC and Henrey.


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## William Ronald

I think the best thing we can do as individuals is to police ourselves and remember that the people we are addressing in the thread are people not totally unlike ourselves -- with their own tastes and opinions.  I think we need to respect each others, and remember that reasonable people can disagree on many topics.

I should not that I have sometimes felt the need to add a little humor of late to help improve the tone of a thread.  I think we shouldn't take ourselves too seriously here.  Speaking for myself, I'm here for fun.


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## Mark

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> ...it must have been a pretty amazing lovefest once upon a time, sorry I missed it.




Yes.  Yes, it was...

_*sniffle*_

...hold me...


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## Kaleon Moonshae

Mark said:
			
		

> Yes.  Yes, it was...
> 
> _*sniffle*_
> 
> ...hold me...




see, it's claptrap like that that makes me so mad I want to call people names so here we go.

::holds *MARK*:: ;P~~~~~~~~~~~


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## Piratecat

Oh, we absolutely go in waves, and the boards have been both more and less friendly than they currently are. Thread closures right now are actually quite low compared to normal, although I've given more warnings lately than I normally have to. Here's a few rough patterns I've noticed:

- After a big argument (drivethrough  pdfs, for instance) people are generally ruder for about a month while resentment lingers.

- National or international political/sports stress (such as the ongoing war, or national politics, or England losing) tend to breed abruptness.

- I think summer is worse than winter for some reason.

We keep growing, which makes the site feel a little less homey, but I'll tell you: I see a lot less rules arguments nowadays (one or two specific people were ushered away), and I see a bajillion new folks helping with creative plot ideas. I think we're just fine, and that the best way to encourage friendliness is to be friendly yourself.


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## Kaleon Moonshae

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Oh, we absolutely go in waves, and the boards have been both more and less friendly than they currently are. Thread closures right now are actually quite low compared to normal, although I've given more warnings lately than I normally have to. Here's a few rough patterns I've noticed:
> 
> - After a big argument (drivethrough  pdfs, for instance) people are generally ruder for about a month while resentment lingers.
> 
> - National or international political/sports stress (such as the ongoing war, or national politics, or England losing) tend to breed abruptness.
> 
> - I think summer is worse than winter for some reason.
> 
> We keep growing, which makes the site feel a little less homey, but I'll tell you: I see a lot less rules arguments nowadays (one or two specific people were ushered away), and I see a bajillion new folks helping with creative plot ideas. I think we're just fine, and that the best way to encourage friendliness is to be friendly yourself.




Actually it is a well established theory that summer is worse argument wise than winter. It tends to be hotter and people have less patience. It is also a time of high stress without the tradition of being nice about it (such as the stress associated with christmas and the idea that you should be kind to your neighbors). While it is not summer in half the world, it does seem like the predominant group of posters here are from north america/europe.

just my two cents, do with it as you will;P


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## Mark

Kaleon Moonshae said:
			
		

> ...just my two cents, do with it as you will...




_*Takes one cent and flips it, revealing "heads"*

...

...

*...takes other cent and pockets them both.*_


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## Kaleon Moonshae

Mark said:
			
		

> _*Takes one cent and flips it, revealing "heads"*
> 
> ...
> 
> ...
> 
> *...takes other cent and pockets them both.*_




Man, you must be desperate to jump a couple pennies, here you go. ::hands you 6 more pennies:: you just quadrupled your money. Let me know if you need any more, I got lots of them


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## Thornir Alekeg

Mark said:
			
		

> _*Takes one cent and flips it, revealing "heads"*
> 
> ...
> 
> ...
> 
> *...takes other cent and pockets them both.*_




Wow, and after Kaleon held you...that's just cold.


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## Kaleon Moonshae

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> Wow, and after Kaleon held you...that's just cold.




I'm used to it, women that I hold walk out the door all the time with my money.... oh wait...there's a reason for that, nevermind.


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## Michael Morris

The new globes are having their intended psychadellic effect...

Oh, did I just say that aloud??


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## Kahuna Burger

Kaleon Moonshae said:
			
		

> Actually it is a well established theory that summer is worse argument wise than winter.




damn, I really need to find the name of the ray bradbury story where the two scientists/sociologists are talking about the perfect temperture for murders to take place at....

Kahuna Burger


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## Kaleon Moonshae

Kahuna Burger said:
			
		

> damn, I really need to find the name of the ray bradbury story where the two scientists/sociologists are talking about the perfect temperture for murders to take place at....
> 
> Kahuna Burger




Wouldn't it depend if it were hot-blooded (crime of passion) or cold-blooded (premeditated)? lol.


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## jgbrowning

It's the glowing moderator names: they turn me into a h8ter. I'm talking to this giant spider spirit from beyond the void and she's told me she'd be willing to sneak in and suck out all the light from the glowing names, but I'm not quite sure if I trust her yet.


Oh, crap.... _inner_ monologue.... _*inner*_

uh, nevermind...

joe b.


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## Dimwhit

jgbrowning said:
			
		

> It's the glowing moderator names: they turn me into a h8ter.




I love the new glowing moderator names. I use the Player's Handbook theme for these forums, and the moderator names are a glowing white, which makes them all but impossible to read with the PH style.

Makes it easier to ignore the mods.


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## Express

My first meta post! Ive lurked a long while over several versions of  EN World. Compared to alot of places on the web, ENWorld still friendly and relatively self policing. The community still calls out inpolite people.

To the point, it seems like alot of the conflict happens when ever the new "Big" thing in rpgs is released. It seems Eberron was the latest big thing, and it has been kinda polarizing; arguments have broken out over everything from npcs to demographics.

The release of 3.5 seemed to have a similar effect if I recall.

Dunno. I think and hope the boards still allow for discourse about rpgs, whether they are d20 or not. Heck, dragonfoot.org had to close down its d20 and system war boards becasue it got too heated. I don't things are that bad here.


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## Krieg

Mark said:
			
		

> Yes. Yes, it was...
> 
> _*sniffle*_
> 
> ...hold me...




*SMACK!!*



Sorry.

Someone had to do it.





			
				Kaleon Moonshae said:
			
		

> Actually it is a well established theory that summer is worse argument wise than winter.



A "well established theory"?

How does that compare to a poorly substantiated fact?


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## Kaleon Moonshae

Krieg said:
			
		

> *SMACK!!*
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry.
> 
> Someone had to do it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A "well established theory"?
> 
> How does that compare to a poorly substantiated fact?




AHHH, quite a lot sir. A well established theory never claims to be fact, only a logical assumption of what *might* be and often has quite a bit of supporting evidence. A poorly substantiated fact, on the other hand, claims to be a fact without having the proof needed to back it up.


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## Dinkeldog

I don't think this current wave of snarkiness is all that much different from the Book of Vile Darkness wave.  Batten down the hatches for another couple weeks and we should be back to holding hands and skipping through the daisies.


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## Joshua Randall

Bah, give me back my Usenet where I could create a custom killfile to avoid seeing all the threads about DriveThruRPG or Ebberron (sp?) or whatever. Those were the days.
[And I'm only partially joking.]


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## Umbran

Dinkeldog said:
			
		

> Batten down the hatches for another couple weeks and we should be back to holding hands and skipping through the daisies.




And now you see why we have these problems in the summertime.  Skipping through the daisies isn't something that many folks like to do in allergy season


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## Mark

Krieg said:
			
		

> *SMACK!!*
> 
> Sorry.
> 
> Someone had to do it.





_I don't believe I have ever been kissed quite that violently...


If you were Klingon, we'd have to take "the oath"..._


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## Andrew D. Gable

jgbrowning said:
			
		

> It's the glowing moderator names: they turn me into a h8ter. I'm talking to this giant spider spirit from beyond the void and she's told me she'd be willing to sneak in and suck out all the light from the glowing names, but I'm not quite sure if I trust her yet.



No!  Never trust Ungoliant!  That skank lies.  You know, just last week, she told me she'd go in the bar and steal some drunk guy's ID so I could get my little cousin in, and she just stayed in the bar and got wasted and then I found her reeking of vodka and Triple Sec in the alley sucking the light out of a neon Miller Genuine Draft sign?  

I'll never believe anything she says again...my poor cousin, Tim was really looking forward to gettin' ripped.

And that daughter of hers, Shiela or whatever, she's just as bad.  But she can't even speak properly.


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## buzz

Kaleon Moonshae said:
			
		

> Actually it is a well established theory that summer is worse argument wise than winter. It tends to be hotter and people have less patience.



And lotsa kids with no school to keep them busy!

Whoops! Showing my age again...


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## Kaleon Moonshae

Mark said:
			
		

> _I don't believe I have ever been kissed quite that violently...
> 
> 
> If you were Klingon, we'd have to take "the oath"..._




man, I knew this one girl that thought the idea of a *gentle* kiss involved teeth and nails. Now...having said that..... wow... I miss her... excuse me why I go and cry, lol.


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## Henry

> Has anyone else noticed this?




No.

Shut up.






============================

PCat sums up my thoughts on it - goes in waves, and traditionally the summer months are the weirder ones for this - maybe it's the heat.  :\


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## Kaleon Moonshae

Henry said:
			
		

> No.
> 
> Shut up.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ============================
> 
> PCat sums up my thoughts on it - goes in waves, and traditionally the summer months are the weirder ones for this - maybe it's the heat.  :\



I should report you...you...you MODERATOR!!! I should have this whole thread shutdown.

::me breathes a couple times:: ok, that's out


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## Crothian

Kaleon Moonshae said:
			
		

> I should report you...you...you MODERATOR!!! I should have this whole thread shutdown.




I'd do it if the link worked for me.....


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## Kaleon Moonshae

Crothian said:
			
		

> I'd do it if the link worked for me.....




gotta love cross post thread drama, lol


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## Dark Jezter

The general climate on ENWorld definately does go in waves, as Piratecat mentioned earlier in this thread.  Threads that concern "Low magic, grim and gritty", rollplaying versus roleplaying, alignment, and the pros and cons of various RPG systems, and the merits of various campaign settings are the ones that seem to be the most likely to start heated arguments.

However, even when it is at its most argumentative, ENWorld is easily the friendlist and most civil public message board I've ever been a member of, which explains why I've kept coming back for over 3 years.  I attribute the civil atmosphere of ENWorld to three factors:

*1. No Political or Religous threads:*  No two topics of discussion polarize people and lead to flamewars more often than politics and religion.  The descision to make these two topics taboo was an extremely good one.

*2. The age demographic:*  IIRC, the average ENWorld poster is in their 20s or 30s.  As a result, the members of ENWorld tend to be more grown-up than members of other gaming forums, who are usually in their teens.

*3.  Good moderation:*  I've been to many forums where the moderators were lazy and refused to do their jobs, and it became nearly impossible to have a good discussion there.  Even worse were the moderators who would look the other way when their friends were breaking the rules, but cracked down hard on anybody else who did the same thing.  The ENWorld mods, OTOH, are very good at their job.  They close threads that get out of control, steer wandering discussions back on topic, and move out-of-place posts to their appropriate forums.  They also don't make exceptions for their friends.

So, in closing, I'll take ENWorld at its most argumentitive over most other internet forums any day of the week.


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## Gez

I'm the living proof the ENW community is still the best. 


Hmm, that didn't sound right. What I meant was that it's _twice in a row_ I've been given a CS account by people I never met and to whom I asked nothing. That's an astonishing level of generosity, and says a lot on the friendliness of the community.

PPS: The "Nothingland attitude" mentionned by Dimwhit is more good-natured ribbing between friends than actual hostility.


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## Sugarmouse

As a relative newbie here at ENWorld, I can not fail to say that it has been one of the most polite and welcoming online boards since I was a _Dai'Shan _ at the UO Black Tower guild. 

My posts -scarce as they have been- have been met with great response from the people at this board. 

The gods know that I work in a profession which constantly puts me in touch with fools, braindead automatons and backstabbing opportunists, and my headaches make me short tempered, but I try not to let it get the better of me. Not that you guys will ever see that side of me.... I don't post enough.   

But back on topic - I like this place. People here a good. Even if some of you are American.


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## diaglo

Gez said:
			
		

> PPS: The "Nothingland attitude" mentionned by Dimwhit is more good-natured ribbing between friends than actual hostility.





oh it that what they call it.  

ribbed for your pleasure....






actually, i think they made a Spike Lee movie out of it... "Do the Right Thing." 


the temperature, school break, and tv reruns do have an effect on the internet...



i've found the attitude over here at ENWurld to be much less of a downer. i've had a dramatic decrease in the number of "diaglo's" edition h8ters. but that might just be me ignoring more people. my ignore list includes a few mods....before they became mods.....


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## Mustrum_Ridcully

Piratecat said:
			
		

> - I think summer is worse than winter for some reason.



I wondered if there might be a correlation - especially when someone said it was different 6 months ago. 

Mustrum Ridcully


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## alsih2o

I haven't been here the longest, but I am here quite a bit. I believe that a minority of posters is disliked/disliking enough to have an effect on the boards as a whole.

 I hope it is simply a trend, but do not believe it is.


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## Mercule

Gez said:
			
		

> PPS: The "Nothingland attitude" mentionned by Dimwhit is more good-natured ribbing between friends than actual hostility.



That, and you find out real quick over there that you need to be able to take lumps as well as give 'em.  Funny, but I think I've been less snarky over here since joining Nothingland.

As far as ENWorld, though, it's probably a combination of getting bigger and a cyclical spike in snarkiness.  Some of it will disappear, some won't.  I will agree, though, that it's the mods that keep it as civil as it is.


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## Cthulhu's Librarian

I know that lately there have been a few times when I have opened up on someone after reading the same negative things over and over again. It's sort of a snowball effect, I hear the negative over and over, I get sick of hearing it, so I say something negative back, which only makes things worse. I used to be much quicker to delete what I wrote before posting it, but there have been a few times recently where I just said "I don't care" and hit Submit Reply. Not some of my proudest moments, but I'll admit to them. 

 Overall, regardless of the waves of friendliness and unfriendliness, I still prefer EN World over any other boards. I'm registered on many, but after a few posts I realize that it's just not as fun. I still visit some on occasion, but generally as a lurker or to ask very specific questions. 

 This is where I come ot hang out with people I consider friends, even if I only see them once or twice a year, or more likely never met in person. In real life, friends have arguements and disagree about things, but keep coming back to patch things up. I see the same thing here.


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## alsih2o

Cthulhu's Librarian said:
			
		

> Overall, regardless of the waves of friendliness and unfriendliness, I still prefer EN World over any other boards.




 Seconded.


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## Dimwhit

Mercule said:
			
		

> That, and you find out real quick over there that you need to be able to take lumps as well as give 'em.  Funny, but I think I've been less snarky over here since joining Nothingland.




Yep. Ditto. It helps having a place to blow off steam.


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## BSF

Well, since de-lurking I am more aware of disagreements.  I have noticed that there were flare-ups over the Book of Erotic Fantasy, the related changes to the d20STL, the mentioned fracas over DTRPG, the new Eberron release, and a few other subjects.  Topics that people feel committed to can get heated.  It does seem to come in waves and it does seem to affect a general atmosphere throughout the board.  But, I still enjoy hanging out here and I try to avoid making inflammatory statements.  I also try to avoid replying to inflammatory statements.  I try to remember that the people on the other screens are, well, people.  We all have good days, we all have bad days.  I don't see your body language, you don't see mine.  I try to treat everyone else as a potential friend, because I know we already have something in common.  There are a lot of folks here that I would like to meet someday.  There are enough of those people that it makes it easier to try to be respectful of others.


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## KB9JMQ

Cthulhu's Librarian said:
			
		

> This is where I come ot hang out with people I consider friends, even if I only see them once or twice a year, or more likely never met in person. In real life, friends have arguements and disagree about things, but keep coming back to patch things up. I see the same thing here.




I agree completely.
I think Eberron brought out some snarkiness again for some reason but seems to me that is dying down already.
I love this place and I am glad steps are taken to keep it a place I like to be.


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## EricNoah

We moderators are really only good at putting out fires after they've started.  The unsung heroes, though, are the hordes of you who _don't start a fire in the first place_ ... even when you have an opportunity to do so by taking someone down a peg, proving how smart or morally superior you are, overreacting, etc.   When you take it on yourself to set a good example, that does a million times more good than a moderator coming and slapping people around or closing threads.  Thank you to all of you who consistently show the rest of EN World how to "do it right."


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## jgbrowning

*cue music*

"Like an unsung Cowboy.*ta da da* Riding out on a thread like a Star-Spangled Rodeo!"


joe b.


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## EricNoah

Thanks, man.  I've had this Black Eyed Peas song stuck in my head, and now it's gone ... and been replaced with visions of rhinestones...


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## WanderingMonster

EricNoah said:
			
		

> Thank you to all of you who consistently show the rest of EN World how to "do it right."



Hey, no problem.


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## jgbrowning

EricNoah said:
			
		

> Thanks, man.  I've had this Black Eyed Peas song stuck in my head, and now it's gone ... and been replaced with visions of rhinestones...




Just glad I can be helpful.....   

joe b.


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## Tom Cashel

alsih2o said:
			
		

> I believe that a minority of posters is disliked/disliking enough to have an effect on the boards as a whole.




Hey! I resemble that remark!


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## Hand of Evil

Back on 06-06-2004 Tetsujin28 was bored: http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=90434

Funny how things perk up.


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## Cyberzombie

Dimwhit said:
			
		

> Maybe the Nothingland attitude is leaking back on ENWorld...




Don't go blamin' us.  We're the nicer board.     Always have been, always will be.


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## Creamsteak

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> *3.  Good moderation:*  I've been to many forums where the moderators were lazy and refused to do their jobs, and it became nearly impossible to have a good discussion there.  Even worse were the moderators who would look the other way when their friends were breaking the rules, but cracked down hard on anybody else who did the same thing.  The ENWorld mods, OTOH, are very good at their job.  They close threads that get out of control, steer wandering discussions back on topic, and move out-of-place posts to their appropriate forums.  They also don't make exceptions for their friends.
> 
> So, in closing, I'll take ENWorld at its most argumentitive over most other internet forums any day of the week.




You forget the troves of gaming boards with power-tripping 15 year old moderators that "pwn3d" threads.


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## BrooklynKnight

Gez said:
			
		

> I'm the living proof the ENW community is still the best.
> 
> 
> Hmm, that didn't sound right. What I meant was that it's _twice in a row_ I've been given a CS account by people I never met and to whom I asked nothing. That's an astonishing level of generosity, and says a lot on the friendliness of the community.
> 
> PPS: The "Nothingland attitude" mentionned by Dimwhit is more good-natured ribbing between friends than actual hostility.



Not to poke a sleeping giant, but I honestly have to say, I completly disagree.


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## Piratecat

If this changes into a comparison of our two boards, I'm going to be severely displeased. Let's not go there, please.


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## Berandor

Piratecat said:
			
		

> If this changes into a comparison of our two boards, I'm going to be severely displeased. Let's not go there, please.




But if we went _there_, we could go there, right?

Of course, there is down right now, so we couldn't go there, and we shouldn't go there here.

Or something.


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## Piratecat

They're there at their site. But there there, buddy; hang tough. I'm there for you.


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## mythusmage

[pointing]"There wolves, there castle."

"Why are you talking like that?"

"I thought you wanted me to."

[With some asperity] "No I don't."

[shrug] "Suit yourself, I'm easy."


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## Andrew D. Gable

"Werewolf."

"Where wolf?"

"There wolf... and there... and there."


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## Ashwyn

Cyberzombie said:
			
		

> Don't go blamin' us.  We're the nicer board.     Always have been, always will be.



I'm not.


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## pogre

You know, this cycle of nastiness seems particularly long. Nothing worth reporting, but a small loss of civility generally that's troubling. I guess I'll stick to the Story Hour and Art Areas


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## barsoomcore

EricNoah said:
			
		

> ...visions of rhinestones...



I always have visions of rhinestones....

What?

Oh, nothing. Never mind.

The boards get happy, they get unhappy. I get cranky sometimes, too, and I've certainly been guilty of taking out crankiness on fellow posters. I'd say the last little while has been sorta cranky generally around here, but it doesn't look like a trend to me. Just a passing fad.

You know, Piratecat and Eric and Morrus probably sit around adjusting their Atomic-Mood-Synthesizer and cackling at the results.

That's what I'd do, if I possessed the power they do. Mm, mood synthesis.


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## Drifter Bob

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> The general climate on ENWorld definately does go in waves, as Piratecat mentioned earlier in this thread.  Threads that concern "Low magic, grim and gritty", rollplaying versus roleplaying, alignment, and the pros and cons of various RPG systems, and the merits of various campaign settings are the ones that seem to be the most likely to start heated arguments.
> 
> However, even when it is at its most argumentative, ENWorld is easily the friendlist and most civil public message board I've ever been a member of,




I think I'm guilty of starting a few of those threads, and I apologize, because I really appreciate the friendly atmosphere on ENworld.  It was the only place which gave a welcome to my first D20 book.  I guess my interest in reforming D&D is a dangerous concept, but I was in fact surprised by the degree of viciousness in some of the responses that I got, even though it was just from a relatively small percentage of the posters.  

Some people take D&D very, very, very seriously, almost like it IS a religion.  I think maybe this is because so many of us have had to defend our participation in D&D as a hobby to non players, often in formative periods of our lives.  I know my teeth set on edge and a cold blooded retort is quick to my lips if somebody mocks my hobby today   I was glad to see one thread in particular die down, some things I feel are just not possible to discuss in an open forum with D&D fans.   

For what it's worth, I bit my tongue hard enough to need surgery... and I'm glad for it, because I want to continue to be part of this community, I have learned a lot of valauble things here and made some good contacts.  It's a great place to float ideas if you are reasonably diplomatic, but I just don't think the forum exists where you can really discuss reforming D&D rules...

DB


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## Camarath

Drifter Bob said:
			
		

> It's a great place to float ideas if you are reasonably diplomatic, but I just don't think the forum exists where you can really discuss reforming D&D rules...



 Did you try the House Rules Forum?


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## Drifter Bob

Camarath said:
			
		

> Did you try the House Rules Forum?




I'm sorry, I should rephrase that, it's impossible to discuss reforming D&D in a general philosophical sense, as to which direction it seems to be going or which direction it could or should go.  If you have specific rules to tinker with that is always acceptabe.

DB


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## Destil

Piratecat said:
			
		

> - I think summer is worse than winter for some reason.



But... summer for *whom*, you boston-centric egoist! I swear, I should get a mod in here. Try and be more considerate thoes in the southern hemisphere in the future.


DriveThroughRPG fiasco? *sigh* Guess I missed some fireworks during my year-long FFXI induced near absence from the boards.


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## diaglo

Drifter Bob said:
			
		

> For what it's worth, I bit my tongue hard enough to need surgery... and I'm glad for it, because I want to continue to be part of this community, I have learned a lot of valauble things here and made some good contacts.  It's a great place to float ideas if you are reasonably diplomatic, but I just don't think the forum exists where you can really discuss reforming D&D rules...




do like i do. i point at the screen and laugh my arse off. i mean some of this stuff is just way too funny.

i picture talking to a volleyball with a bloody handprint on it. that is as much of a decent response as you will get from some of the people on the other side of the net/web/screen.


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## Camarath

Drifter Bob said:
			
		

> I'm sorry, I should rephrase that, it's impossible to discuss reforming D&D in a general philosophical sense, as to which direction it seems to be going or which direction it could or should go.  If you have specific rules to tinker with that is always acceptabe.
> 
> DB



Actually what I meant was that the House Rules Forum might be a better place than General RPG Discussion to talk about changing the game even if one wants to change it on a basic level.

I personaly do not think the game needs to reformed in a general philosophical sense. I would resent any real attempt to change the game from the one I am currently enjoying to one which I do not believe I would enjoy as much. And I do not appreciate other people telling me how the game should be. If you want to run something in a certian way you are more than welcome to but to say that I should run the game that way is frankly insulting to my dignity and freedom as an arbiter of my own gaming environment. I think a good number of people feel as I do. So I do not think you will not get a good reaction if you start with the premise that there is something inherently wrong with the game and the way other people are playing it. That sounds like you are saying that you know better than us and that we should conform to your preconception and whims because your ideas and aesthetic sensibilities are superior to ours. I know that this is not your intention but I do not know how you can avoid this without voicing your concerns in a forum that is already focused on changing the game. If you talk about changing your own game you may be able to get feedback without threatening or insulting the way other people play.


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## Drifter Bob

Camarath said:
			
		

> I would resent any real attempt to change the game from the one I am currently enjoying to one which I do not believe I would enjoy as much.




Well, like I said...

This kind of attitude has discouraged me from ever trying to discuss that particular issue again, in any forum.

Having said that, In a probably fruitless effort to discuss the discussion, if you will, I feel I should point out that you are making some incorrect assumptions.

1) By suggesting a change in the core rules or marketing strategy or d20 license or whatever, I am not necesaarily telling you how to change how you run your own campaign.  As all the anti-reform advocates point out, you can house rule the game any way you want.

2) D&D is not static, it _is_ changing with every new WOTC release, even third party d20 material changes the game, with every conversation on these boards.  Version 4 will arrive, like it or not!  If I chime in on some ideas on what direction I think those changes should take, it doesn't mean I'm trying to ruin or sabotage the game.

3) Similarly, if I'm suggesting that the percieved course of certain ongoing changes in D&D may be potentially leading to or causing some problem, I am not ATTACKING you, how you play your game, or D&D in general.  I am either wrong or right or partially wrong or right, but thats as far it needs to go.

Imagine we are all on a cruise ship, and unlike most cruise ships, the toilets are not backed up, and we are all having a great time, going from one idylic carribean isle to another.  If I happen to be looking at a satelite image on my laptop computer which seems to bode for the possibility of a hurricane coming, and I mention that we might want to consider a course change, that doesn't mean I'm out to sink the ship.  Quite to the contrary.

4) the reactionary, hyperconservative attitude a lot of fans have toward D&D does not necessarily bode well for it's future.

DB


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## Umbran

Camarath said:
			
		

> I would resent any real attempt to change the game from the one I am currently enjoying to one which I do not believe I would enjoy as much.




Aye, and here's where we get into unfriendliness -  resentment.  

The thing folks tend to encounter is not just resentment of real attempts to change the game, but resentment even of discussing the idea.  And that's a little much.  There's something so holy about the thing that we should resent folks even talking about changing it?  Is it healthy to become so dogmatic about gaming that one resents discussion of different possibilities? 

Talk is just that - talk.  It isn't something to get dander up about.  Discussions of topics you don't like still broaden the mind and keep the mental processes rolling smoothly.  Discussion of alternatives (even distasteful ones) can keep you evaluating what you do, so that you don't fall into a rut.


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## Drifter Bob

Umbran said:
			
		

> Aye, and here's where we get into unfriendliness -  resentment.
> 
> The thing folks tend to encounter is not just resentment of real attempts to change the game, but resentment even of discussing the idea.  And that's a little much.  There's something so holy about the thing that we should resent folks even talking about changing it?  Is it healthy to become so dogmatic about gaming that one resents discussion of different possibilities?
> 
> Talk is just that - talk.  It isn't something to get dander up about.  Discussions of topics you don't like still broaden the mind and keep the mental processes rolling smoothly.  Discussion of alternatives (even distasteful ones) can keep you evaluating what you do, so that you don't fall into a rut.




Thank you.

DB


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## Camarath

Drifter Bob said:
			
		

> Well, like I said...
> 
> This kind of attitude has discouraged me from ever trying to discuss that particular issue again, in any forum.



Well I think you would get a better reaction in the House Rule forum if you want to talk about really changing the game in some tangible way. If you just want to gripe about non-specific issues then there is probaly no place to post that kind of thread and not garner some negative responses.


			
				Drifter Bob said:
			
		

> Having said that, In a probably fruitless effort to discuss the discussion, if you will, I feel I should point out that you are making some incorrect assumptions.



1) You asssume that it is as easy to add internally consitent and comprehensive rules and systems as it is to remove them, this is not so. It is much harder to add than to ignore. 

2) I do not want the game to take the same direction I believe you wish it to take. In other words I like the rules to be consistent and expansive and would like to see them become more so. I view attempts to reduce the scope or level of integration of the rules (i.e. make the game more free-form) as undesireable.

3) I do not agree with you about what will become a problem in the future for D&D. 

It is my view that you have a hazy picture on your laptop which you claim shows a hurricane but which looks just like another patch of clouds to me. And you are suggesting that we change course into an area in which I believe are shallow rocks. In such a situation I would try as best I could to argue against your recomended course change.

4) Reactionary attitudes are pervasive in all areas of life. I am not sure I would call the current attitude hyperconservative since I have seen a great deal of willingness to actept new rules and systems both from published sources and in the form of House Rules.



			
				Umbran said:
			
		

> Talk is just that - talk. It isn't something to get dander up about. Discussions of topics you don't like still broaden the mind and keep the mental processes rolling smoothly. Discussion of alternatives (even distasteful ones) can keep you evaluating what you do, so that you don't fall into a rut.



 I don't take these things personally. And I do not mind entertaining alternet points of view. But to do so I have to understand why the other side views the issue as they do and what real changes they would like to see. Stating that the game is flawed because it occational has inconvenient rules is not enough for me to understand what should be changed and why. 

Also the negative reaction in that thread to other people's suggestions for possible rule based fixes for the problem in question made it hard to tell what the real issue in that thread was was. Also the higher standard to which many people hold published works IMO added harder edge to many peoples comments then I believe would have been there if it had just been a personal game.

If Drifter Bob wants to make a system that makes it easier to make NPCs I think that would be a good thing which I would support. But if Drifter Bob just wants to remove existing rules systems solely because they make it hard to make NPCs that I would not support that.

Edit: I fear I am coming off as confrontational and unfreindly again. I do not mean to be either. I just wanted to put forth a contrasting view point and perhaps direct Drifter Bob to a part of the forum that could help him if he wants to do something about the system. I am not trying to be unreasonable or offensive.


----------



## Drifter Bob

For one thing, I was not speaking only of the one thread to which you are referring here.

For another, you are making a bunch of assumptions about my percieved agenda, which I could speculate is motivated by some hysterical fear of losing d&D somehow, but I really don't know.  I find it extremely unpleasant to read this.  All I did was raise some questions, I did not suggest all these specific plans you are attributing to me.



			
				Camarath said:
			
		

> Also the negative reaction in that thread to other people's suggestions for possible rule based fixes for the problem in question made




You may not intend to be rude, but this is a mischaracterisation.  Since you feel compelled to comment upon it, I would like to politely ask you to read through that thread again, particularly the last page or two.  You should notice that I was happy to hear all the concrete suggestions which were made and thanked everyone who did so.  It seems like your passion for the cause, whatever it is, is clouding your judgement.

DB


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## Camarath

Drifter Bob said:
			
		

> You may not intend to be rude, but this is a mischaracterisation.  Since you feel compelled to comment upon it, I would like to politely ask you to read through that thread again, particularly the last page or two.  You should notice that I was happy to hear all the concrete suggestions which were made and thanked everyone who did so.  It seems like your passion for the cause, whatever it is, is clouding your judgement.



 You asked people to "tell me technically if I can give this thing a few bluff skill ranks" and people gave suggestions and you ignored them (except for an short off-hand coment in post 68 on page 4). That seems like a very negative reaction to me. 

Also in that thread which you titled "D20 'philosophy' cramping my style" you ask people to "explain to me why I am stupid and this is NOT an example of anything being wrong anywhere except in my head (since I know nobody will agree with me)". This sounds confrontational and inflammatory to me. I find it odd that you should take exception to people responding in kind.


			
				Drifter Bob said:
			
		

> For another, you are making a bunch of assumptions about my percieved agenda, which I could speculate is motivated by some hysterical fear of losing d&D somehow, but I really don't know.



 I am not assuming anything about your agenda. I am reacting to your stated opinions and intentions. Maybe you could explain your postion in a specific way rather than just as a general misgiving about people wanting encounters and situations to fit into the rules and the fear that this is bad for the game?

Also I think you are reading too much emotion into my posts I am not afraid or angry. And I do not know why you think I am. I disagree with you but that does not mean I am afraid of you or your ablity to change that game or that I am angry with you for trying.


			
				Drifter Bob said:
			
		

> I find it extremely unpleasant to read this. All I did was raise some questions, I did not suggest all these specific plans you are attributing to me.



You did state in the D20 'philosophy' cramping my style thread that:


			
				Drifter Bob(post 82) said:
			
		

> I took the time to write this, and to try to make this point clear, in the hope that it would get through to some of the influential peole in the d20 community and they would recognize the problem and help do whatever can be done, if anything, to help reverse the trend.



 Was this not your intention and your plan? I assumed that you actually meant to do this because you stated that it was your reason for posting.

In any case my point is that it I think you can have a resonable discussion about actual changes you wish to make to the game and its rules but I don't think you can make much headway in a disscusion about changing peoples attitudes toward the game. I do not think my attitude or the way I play the game needs changing and I am not fond of people telling me those thing need to be changed.


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## Camarath

I should just learn to leave well enough alone. I only seem to muddle things when I respond to people in Meta about their posts. Sorrry about that Drifter Bob I am just going to be quite now because I don't think I am doing anything other that getting you upset.


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## Drifter Bob

Camarath said:
			
		

> I should just learn to leave well enough alone. I only seem to muddle things when I respond to people in Meta about their posts. Sorrry about that Drifter Bob I am just going to be quite now because I don't think I am doing anything other that getting you upset.




I don't know what your problem is, I specifically thanked 5 or 6 people who answered technical questions in that thread, (even though that was not the main point of the thread) and you claim I didn't.  I get the impresssion that you mean well, but you seem to be blinded by your feelings on the subject.  Also, you take a general statement I make about a percieved trend in d20 rules vis a vis publishing in the industry, and translate that into some kind of attack on how you play the game.  Frankly, I'm sure we could go back and forth on it forever without seeing eye to eye or even probably having a coherent argument.  And this process is going ot make me really, really angry because your attempts to be diplomatic, while no doubt sincere, fall short of the mark.

I think it's enough to say that it isn't possible to discuss reforming the game in a general sense.  If you find some loophole in 'da rools' people are very responsive to that, they will argue the details gleefully and if it's an actual loophole then they go along with it.  That is not the kind of issue I was trying to raise, in fact I'm disturbed by the fact that it seems like the only things which are aknowleged are micro level nerfing changes of that sort, to the explicit excusion of any discussion of larger trends.

Then again, maybe it's just me.

DB


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## Drifter Bob

Camarath said:
			
		

> Was this not your intention and your plan? I assumed that you actually meant to do this because you stated that it was your reason for posting.




Yeah, my plan was to raise an issue.  I don't think you have a clue what the actual issue was.  Assuming that it would effect your own campaign means that you definately do not.  Suggesting direction for change in D&D, or for example in the way D&D rules are starting encourage competitive attitudes between DMs and players, does not mean that somebody is teling you how to play the game.  As I keep saying over and over, the game is going to change, it is changing every day.  4E will come out.  In the past, say under 2E for example, this change led D&D in a direction which caused the game to become a lot less popular.  If I'm suggesting a possible problem in the ongoing development trends in the game, it is not a personal attack on you, and it's not an excuse to make a personal attack on me, or lie about what I said.

DB


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## Drifter Bob

From the thread in question:



			
				drifter bob said:
			
		

> I really appreciate all the friendly comments though, and for what it's worth the ideas on how to fix the little problem I had.





			
				drifter bob said:
			
		

> Thanks a lot for your comments.





			
				drifter bob said:
			
		

> I probably will do that, thanks.





			
				drifter bob said:
			
		

> I really appreciate all the technical advice on the bluff problem.




DB


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## Camarath

Drifter Bob said:
			
		

> If I'm suggesting a possible problem in the ongoing development trends in the game, it is not a personal attack on you, and it's not an excuse to make a personal attack on me, or lie about what I said.



I missed your post #145 on page 8 where you thanked people. I am sorry about that. It was a good bit after the thread ceased to deal with the rule question in any tangible sense. I do think your first post was a bit provocative but I did not mean that as a personal attack. Have I personally attacked you in any other way? 


			
				Drifter Bob said:
			
		

> I don't think you have a clue what the actual issue was.



 Could you please tell me what the real issue was? As far as I can tell you do not like the direction the game is going is this not so? Was there another issue I missed? Am I not allowed to disagree with you on this issue?


			
				Drifter Bob said:
			
		

> I think it's enough to say that it isn't possible to discuss reforming the game in a general sense.



 How do you want to reform the game? I still do not understand what you want to change. It sounds like you want to change the attitudes of other people towards that game is this not so?


			
				Drifter Bob said:
			
		

> I get the impresssion that you mean well, but you seem to be blinded by your feelings on the subject.



 Does dismissing my view as a blind emotional reaction make you feel better about your own position? I have not tried to dismiss or demean your views. I would like to understand them but for that to happen you might have to explain them to me.


			
				Drifter Bob said:
			
		

> And this process is going ot make me really, really angry because your attempts to be diplomatic, while no doubt sincere, fall short of the mark.



 I trying to be diplomatic and to understand your position. Why does this make you so angry?


----------



## mythusmage

Camarath said:
			
		

> ...I fear I am coming off as confrontational and unfreindly again...




Nah, you're just being unfriendly and confrontational. Big difference. The one'll get you a warning, the other'll get you a week-long suspension.


----------



## Drifter Bob

Camarath said:
			
		

> I missed your post #145 on page 8 where you thanked



Since you have taken such a detailed interest in this specific issue (my thankfulness) I suggest you pour through the thread again.  I thanked people several times for their technical suggestions (the quotes above are from all through the thread, including some of my first responses)


> Could you please tell me what the real issue was?



I tried to do this for 11 pages on that thread.  A couple of people eventually got my point, some disagreed, some agreed.  As for the rest, I think we just have to chalk it up to my poor communication skills and lack of writing ability to get my ideas across.  That, and my lack of follow through, for I am no longer interested in trying.  

DB


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## Drifter Bob

To be fair, this is still a great forum, it's maybe a little much to expect to be able to discuss general reform issues in a fan oriented site, it's a little like going to the fan site of some band and suggesting they get a new bass player or something.  Even if it's a good idea people aren't likely to appreciate it.  I still think ENworld is one of the friendliest and most constructive places I have run across for RPG's on the internet, the other being probably Clinton Nixon and Ron Edwards "The Forge" independent RPG site.

I am glad to be part of this site and the value of what I have learned here far far exceeds the consternation of any arguments, and the one or two boycotts I picked up 

DB


----------



## Camarath

Drifter Bob said:
			
		

> I tried to do this for 11 pages on that thread.  A couple of people eventually got my point, some disagreed, some agreed.  As for the rest, I think we just have to chalk it up to my poor communication skills and lack of writing ability to get my ideas across.  That, and my lack of follow through, for I am no longer interested in trying.



 Like I said I am sorry I brought it up. I do have a hard time not responding to people responding to me as you have seen. I just thought if you wanted help in changing the game the people who frequent the House Rules forum could be of use to you because many of the base assumptions are different there.


----------



## Ferret

I do think it is ENworld but some of the member who may... phrase question or suggestions in such a way that they dont wan't anything less then praise, rather then suggestion.


----------



## Piratecat

Interestingly enough, the way a thread is posted makes a HUGE difference. For instance, a thread called "Discussion about HARP" would be much less confrontative than a thread called "HARP vs. 3.5 D&D; which is better?"  A thread called "1e vs 2e vs 3e" will erupt into edition wars and rudeness much faster than a thread called "I love 1e AD&D." The confrontative first post or thread title sets everyone on the defensive, and that's never much fun.


----------



## Drifter Bob

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Interestingly enough, the way a thread is posted makes a HUGE difference. For instance, a thread called "Discussion about HARP" would be much less confrontative than a thread called "HARP vs. 3.5 D&D; which is better?"  A thread called "1e vs 2e vs 3e" will erupt into edition wars and rudeness much faster than a thread called "I love 1e AD&D." The confrontative first post or thread title sets everyone on the defensive, and that's never much fun.




Thats definately true, I regret the title of that thread.

DB


----------



## Teflon Billy

EricNoah said:
			
		

> ...The unsung heroes, though, are the hordes of you who _don't start a fire in the first place_ ... even when you have an opportunity to do so by taking someone down a peg, proving how smart or morally superior you are, overreacting, etc.   When you take it on yourself to set a good example, that does a million times more good than a moderator coming and slapping people around or closing threads...




Your sarcasm is hurtful Eric


----------



## Ashwyn

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> Your sarcasm is hurtful Eric



The truth hurts, man.


----------



## mythusmage

Ashwyn said:
			
		

> The truth hurts, man.




It's not the truth that hurts, it's one's reaction to it.


----------



## Hand of Evil

While truth hurts, sometimes a good spanking feels good...  

Did I say that out loud.


----------



## diaglo

Drifter Bob said:
			
		

> Thats definately true, I regret the title of that thread




i'm growing cold. i regret nothing. ( http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=91 )


----------



## DaveStebbins

Ashwyn said:
			
		

> The truth hurts, man.



"The truth doesn't hurt unless it ought to." --B.C. Forbes (1880-1954) founder of Forbes magazine

-Dave


----------



## Drifter Bob

"everybody has the right to be stupid, but some people abuse the privelage"

Joseph Stalin, killer of 40 million people


----------



## Piratecat

Here's a hint: quoting Stalin does _not_ make the message boards friendlier.

Anyways, I think we're done with this thread for now. Be friendlier to other people, and this whole site gets better for everyone. I like how that works.


----------

