# Survivor Appendix N Authors-  LEIBER WINS!



## lowkey13 (Aug 21, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


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## lowkey13 (Aug 21, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


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## Dausuul (Aug 21, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 18
Bellairs, John 20
Brackett, Leigh 20
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 20
Carter, Lin 20
de Camp, L. Sprague 20
de Camp & Pratt 20
Derleth, August 20
Dunsany, Lord 20
Farmer, P. J. 20
Fox, Gardner 20
Howard, R. E. 20
Lanier, Sterling 20
Leiber, Fritz 21
Lovecraft, H. P. 18
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 20
Norton, Andre 20
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 20
St. Clair, Margaret 20
Tolkien, J. R. R. 20
Vance, Jack 20
Weinbaum, Stanley 20
Wellman, Manley Wade 20
Williamson, Jack 20
Zelazny, Roger 21


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## Ralif Redhammer (Aug 21, 2018)

Lovecraft was an easy downvote for me. These days, I think his inventiveness is overstated and his personal opinions (which spill all over into his texts) repugnant.

The upvote was tougher than I thought. I love R.E. Howard's yarns, but he's problematic, like Lovecraft. Jack Vance's influence on the game is undeniable. Burroughs is just plain fun. Lord Dunsany’s tales read like rediscovered fairytales. Moorcock’s trippy and grim psychedelia-fused sword and sorcery speak perfectly to the time Appendix N was written and D&D was created. 

But in the end, I had to go with Tolkien. For all Gygax’s downplaying of the Professor’s influence, the shadow of the Lord of the Rings cannot be discounted on D&D and fantasy literature. Plus, I’ve probably re-read his books more than any other on the list.



Dausuul said:


> Anderson, Poul 18
> Bellairs, John 20
> Brackett, Leigh 20
> Brown, Frederic 20
> ...


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## lowkey13 (Aug 21, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


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## Ralif Redhammer (Aug 21, 2018)

I almost didn't vote for him, being the obvious choice and all. But since I have a Lord of the Rings tattoo, I kinda felt obligated to do so. 



lowkey13 said:


> I am genuinely curious to see if Tolkien wins this, as the presumptive favorite, or gets cut down as too popular (the Drizzt/FR effect in survivor threads).


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## Sacrosanct (Aug 21, 2018)

How in the world do you not have Lloyd Alexander on that list.  He's much more famous than half of them, had a huge influence on the game as much as anyone else, and is one of the most iconic fantasy authors of the time.  He was so famous Disney even made a movie based on one of his books. 

I can't vote in this thread based on protest lol.

*Edit*  Oh, I see you used the DMG appendix.  Should have used the Basic Appendix N as it has a much better selection (like C. S. Lewis as well).   On a side note, weird how Terry Brooks isn't mentioned.  He's only sold more books, even by 1979, than most people on that list, love him or hate him.


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## Prakriti (Aug 21, 2018)

_The Face in the Frost_ is a highly underrated book. 

Anderson, Poul 18
Bellairs, John 21
Brackett, Leigh 20
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 20
Carter, Lin 20
de Camp, L. Sprague 20
de Camp & Pratt 20
Derleth, August 20
Dunsany, Lord 20
Farmer, P. J. 20
Fox, Gardner 20
Howard, R. E. 20
Lanier, Sterling 20
Leiber, Fritz 21
Lovecraft, H. P. 16
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 20
Norton, Andre 20
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 20
St. Clair, Margaret 20
Tolkien, J. R. R. 21
Vance, Jack 20
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 20
Williamson, Jack 20
Zelazny, Roger 21


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## Gradine (Aug 21, 2018)

Yeah, Brooks or Alexander would have been easy upvotes for me. But alas and alack, Gygax gonna Gygax. Downvote is, of course easy; if only it were similarly so easy to scrub virulent racism from the rest of the internet.

Anderson, Poul 18
Bellairs, John 21
Brackett, Leigh 20
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 20
Carter, Lin 20
de Camp, L. Sprague 20
de Camp & Pratt 20
Derleth, August 20
Dunsany, Lord 20
Farmer, P. J. 20
Fox, Gardner 20
Howard, R. E. 20
Lanier, Sterling 20
Leiber, Fritz 21
Lovecraft, H. P. 14
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 20
Norton, Andre 20
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 20
St. Clair, Margaret 20
Tolkien, J. R. R. 21
Vance, Jack 21
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 20
Williamson, Jack 20
Zelazny, Roger 21


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## Paul Farquhar (Aug 21, 2018)

Terry Pratchett is missing from the list as well. His writing probably has more direct influence on our games than anyone else (with the possible exception of Monty Python).


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## Paul Farquhar (Aug 21, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 18
Bellairs, John 21
Brackett, Leigh 20
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 20
Carter, Lin 20
de Camp, L. Sprague 20
de Camp & Pratt 20
Derleth, August 20
Dunsany, Lord 20
Farmer, P. J. 20
Fox, Gardner 20
Howard, R. E. 21
Lanier, Sterling 20
Leiber, Fritz 21
Lovecraft, H. P. 14
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 20
Norton, Andre 20
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 20
St. Clair, Margaret 20
Tolkien, J. R. R. 21
Vance, Jack 19
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 20
Williamson, Jack 20
Zelazny, Roger 21


Pretty much every author on this list is racist and/or sexist, so it would be pretty unfair to single any of them out on that basis.


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## tglassy (Aug 21, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 18
Bellairs, John 21
Brackett, Leigh 20
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 20
Carter, Lin 20
de Camp, L. Sprague 20
de Camp & Pratt 20
Derleth, August 20
Dunsany, Lord 20
Farmer, P. J. 20
Fox, Gardner 20
Howard, R. E. 21
Lanier, Sterling 20
Leiber, Fritz 21
Lovecraft, H. P. 14
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 20
Norton, Andre 20
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 20
St. Clair, Margaret 20
Tolkien, J. R. R. 22
Vance, Jack 19
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 20
Williamson, Jack 20
Zelazny, Roger 19


So....yeah.  Tolkein.  Lord of the Rings is not "Too popular".  It's iconic.  That would be like saying air is too popular.  All of fantasy fiction is nothing more than Lord of the Rings Fan Fiction.  Period. Let's face it, if Tolkein had not created his world of Middle Earth, then the fantasy genre would be much, much less than it is.


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## Tallifer (Aug 21, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 18
Bellairs, John 21
Brackett, Leigh 20
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 20
Carter, Lin 20
de Camp, L. Sprague 20
de Camp & Pratt 20
Derleth, August 20
Dunsany, Lord 20
Farmer, P. J. 20
Fox, Gardner 20
Howard, R. E. 21
Lanier, Sterling 20
Leiber, Fritz 21
Lovecraft, H. P. 14
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 21
Norton, Andre 20
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 20
St. Clair, Margaret 20
Tolkien, J. R. R. 22
Vance, Jack 19
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 20
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 19

Too many great authors here for me to choose rationally. Tolkien is the best, but Moorcock has far wider ranging imagination for the purposes of a wonderfully zany roleplaying campaign.


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## lowkey13 (Aug 21, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


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## Sacrosanct (Aug 21, 2018)

tglassy said:


> So....yeah.  Tolkein.  Lord of the Rings is not "Too popular".  It's iconic.  That would be like saying air is too popular.  All of fantasy fiction is nothing more than Lord of the Rings Fan Fiction.  Period. Let's face it, if Tolkein had not created his world of Middle Earth, then the fantasy genre would be much, much less than it is.





Well then, that shows not only a complete display of ignorance of many of the authors on this this who predated Tolkien, but also of Tolkien himself.  Most of what he wrote was pulled directly from existing myth and folklore and just compiled into a singular story.  Tolkien was a linguist who wanted to create a unified anglo saxon fantasy myth.  Tolkein ripped off existing myth and folklore as much as Brooks ripped off Tolkien


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## Dausuul (Aug 21, 2018)

tglassy said:


> All of fantasy fiction is nothing more than Lord of the Rings Fan Fiction.  Period.



This _entire list_ of authors refutes your claim.


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## Yardiff (Aug 21, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 18
Bellairs, John 21
Brackett, Leigh 20
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 20+1=21
Carter, Lin 20
de Camp, L. Sprague 20
de Camp & Pratt 20
Derleth, August 20
Dunsany, Lord 20
Farmer, P. J. 20
Fox, Gardner 20
Howard, R. E. 21
Lanier, Sterling 20
Leiber, Fritz 21
Lovecraft, H. P. 14-2=12
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 21
Norton, Andre 20
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 20
St. Clair, Margaret 20
Tolkien, J. R. R. 22
Vance, Jack 19
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 20
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 19


Burroughs was the first author I read ever.


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## Tyler Do'Urden (Aug 21, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 18
Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 20
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 21
Carter, Lin 20
de Camp, L. Sprague 20
de Camp & Pratt 20
Derleth, August 20
Dunsany, Lord 20
Farmer, P. J. 20
Fox, Gardner 20
Howard, R. E. 21
Lanier, Sterling 20
Leiber, Fritz 21
Lovecraft, H. P. 12
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 21
Norton, Andre 20
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 20
St. Clair, Margaret 20
Tolkien, J. R. R. 23
Vance, Jack 19
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 20
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 19

As much as I love Lovecraft... I have to upvote the master of masters.

Downvotes on this will be mostly just downvoting whoever I haven't read that others are upvoting... I can't see any authors on this list I actively dislike.


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## leogobsin (Aug 21, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 18
Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 20
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 21
Carter, Lin 20
de Camp, L. Sprague 20
de Camp & Pratt 20
Derleth, August 20
Dunsany, Lord 20
Farmer, P. J. 20
Fox, Gardner 20
Howard, R. E. 21
Lanier, Sterling 20
Leiber, Fritz 21
Lovecraft, H. P. 10
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 22
Norton, Andre 20
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 20
St. Clair, Margaret 20
Tolkien, J. R. R. 23
Vance, Jack 19
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 20
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 19


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## Ickam (Aug 21, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 18
Bellairs, John 21
Brackett, Leigh 20
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 21
Carter, Lin 20
de Camp, L. Sprague 20
de Camp & Pratt 20
Derleth, August 20 
Dunsany, Lord 20 - 2 = 18
Farmer, P. J. 20
Fox, Gardner 20
Howard, R. E. 21
Lanier, Sterling 20
Leiber, Fritz 21
Lovecraft, H. P. 12
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 21
Norton, Andre 20
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 20
St. Clair, Margaret 20
Tolkien, J. R. R. 22
Vance, Jack 19
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 20
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 19 + 1=20


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## Ralif Redhammer (Aug 21, 2018)

XP given especially for the Hawkmoon art. Flamingos and firelances!



Tallifer said:


> Too many great authors here for me to choose rationally. Tolkien is the best, but Moorcock has far wider ranging imagination for the purposes of a wonderfully zany roleplaying campaign.


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## Dausuul (Aug 21, 2018)

lowkey13 said:


> Dude .... are you begging for Tolkien to get downvoted?



Yeah, I'm afraid that might have to happen. And I love Tolkien. I grew up on Tolkien. But he doesn't get to just knock out everyone else on this list without a fight.

(Also, downvoting Zelazny? Them's fightin' votes.)


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## Gradine (Aug 21, 2018)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Pretty much every author on this list is racist and/or sexist, so it would be pretty unfair to single any of them out on that basis.




It's more of a spectrum than an either/or switch. Don't worry, Howard et. al. will have their day too.


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## chrisrtld (Aug 21, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 18
Bellairs, John 21
Brackett, Leigh 20
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 21
Carter, Lin 20
de Camp, L. Sprague 20
de Camp & Pratt 20
Derleth, August 20
Dunsany, Lord 18
Farmer, P. J. 20
Fox, Gardner 20
Howard, R. E. 21
Lanier, Sterling 20
Leiber, Fritz 21
Lovecraft, H. P. 8
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 22
Norton, Andre 20
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 20
St. Clair, Margaret 20
Tolkien, J. R. R. 24
Vance, Jack 19
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 20
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 20


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## lowkey13 (Aug 21, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


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## Lidgar (Aug 21, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 18
Bellairs, John 21
Brackett, Leigh 20
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 21
Carter, Lin 20
de Camp, L. Sprague 20
de Camp & Pratt 20
Derleth, August 20
Dunsany, Lord 18
Farmer, P. J. 20
Fox, Gardner 20
Howard, R. E. 21
Lanier, Sterling 20
Leiber, Fritz 21
Lovecraft, H. P. 6
Merritt, A. 21 - Would not have weird elder elemental temples without this guy
Moorcock, Michael 22
Norton, Andre 20
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 20
St. Clair, Margaret 20
Tolkien, J. R. R. 24
Vance, Jack 19
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 20
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 20


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## Lord Mhoram (Aug 21, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 18
Bellairs, John 21
Brackett, Leigh 20
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 21
Carter, Lin 20
de Camp, L. Sprague 20
de Camp & Pratt 20
Derleth, August 20
Dunsany, Lord 18
Farmer, P. J. 20
Fox, Gardner 20
Howard, R. E. 19
Lanier, Sterling 20
Leiber, Fritz 21
Lovecraft, H. P. 6
Merritt, A. 21 - Would not have weird elder elemental temples without this guy
Moorcock, Michael 22
Norton, Andre 20
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 20
St. Clair, Margaret 20
Tolkien, J. R. R. 24
Vance, Jack 19
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 20
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21


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## Mr. Wilson (Aug 21, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 18
Bellairs, John 21
Brackett, Leigh 20
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 21
Carter, Lin 20
de Camp, L. Sprague 20
de Camp & Pratt 20
Derleth, August 20
Dunsany, Lord 18
Farmer, P. J. 20
Fox, Gardner 20
Howard, R. E. 19
Lanier, Sterling 20
Leiber, Fritz 21
*Lovecraft, H. P. 7*- I understand why everyone is down voting him.
Merritt, A. 21 
Moorcock, Michael 22
Norton, Andre 20
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 20
St. Clair, Margaret 20
*Tolkien, J. R. R. 22*
Vance, Jack 19
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 20
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21


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## Prakriti (Aug 21, 2018)

Lots of axe-grinding so far. I guess it's too much to ask that people focus on downvoting the obscure, no-name also-rans before tackling the big-name authors. We get it, you think super-popular-legendary-iconic-author is over-appreciated. Does that mean that they deserve to fall before Sterling-fricking-Lanier, whose greatest claim to fame is _appearing in Appendix N of the AD&D DMG_?

The way things are going now, we're going to end up with Andrew Offutt, Fletcher Pratt, and Manley Wade Wellman in the final 3, and people are going to wonder WTF happened.


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## Eltab (Aug 21, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 18
Bellairs, John 21
Brackett, Leigh 20
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 21
Carter, Lin 20
de Camp, L. Sprague 20
de Camp & Pratt 20
Derleth, August 20
Dunsany, Lord 18
Farmer, P. J. 20
Fox, Gardner 20
Howard, R. E. 19
Lanier, Sterling 20
Leiber, Fritz 21
Lovecraft, H. P. 7
Merritt, A. 21 
Moorcock, Michael 22
*Norton, Andre 20 + 1 = 21*  He has a whole shelf to himself at my Public Library, therefore he must be a good author, right?
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
*Saberhagen, Fred 20 - 2 = 18*  If we travel back in time and get him before he can write the Berzerkers, think how many lives across the Universe we can save!
St. Clair, Margaret 20
Tolkien, J. R. R. 22
Vance, Jack 19
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 20
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21

Now I'm going to have to _actually read_ Appendix N


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## lowkey13 (Aug 21, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


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## Ralif Redhammer (Aug 21, 2018)

Aw, man, I like Lanier's Hiero's Journey. It's so goofy and bizarre in an un-self-conscious way. And it's pretty much proto-Gamma World.



Prakriti said:


> Does that mean that they deserve to fall before Sterling-fricking-Lanier, whose greatest claim to fame is _appearing in Appendix N of the AD&D DMG_?


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## Lidgar (Aug 21, 2018)

Eltab said:


> Anderson, Poul 18
> Bellairs, John 21
> Brackett, Leigh 20
> Brown, Frederic 20
> ...




Andre Norton is (was) a she. And yes, she was very good. Her book Quag Keep was actually a retelling of a D&D session she had with Mr. Gygax.


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## Bradley Hindman (Aug 21, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 18
Bellairs, John 21
Brackett, Leigh 20
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 21
Carter, Lin 20
de Camp, L. Sprague 20
de Camp & Pratt 20
Derleth, August 20 -2 = 18  Just Blech!
Dunsany, Lord 18
Farmer, P. J. 20
Fox, Gardner 20
Howard, R. E. 19
Lanier, Sterling 20
Leiber, Fritz 21
Lovecraft, H. P. 7
Merritt, A. 21
Moorcock, Michael 22
Norton, Andre 21
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 18
St. Clair, Margaret 20
Tolkien, J. R. R. 22
Vance, Jack 19
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 20
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21 + 1 = 22

I was torn between upvoting Zelazny (my favorite is actually the posthumous "Lord Demon") and Andre Norton (I've read dozens of *her* books over the years).

The downvote was easy.


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## Gradine (Aug 21, 2018)

Prakriti said:


> Lots of axe-grinding so far. I guess it's too much to ask that people focus on downvoting the obscure, no-name also-rans before tackling the big-name authors. We get it, you think super-popular-legendary-iconic-author is over-appreciated. Does that mean that they deserve to fall before Sterling-fricking-Lanier, whose greatest claim to fame is _appearing in Appendix N of the AD&D DMG_?
> 
> The way things are going now, we're going to end up with Andrew Offutt, Fletcher Pratt, and Manley Wade Wellman in the final 3, and people are going to wonder WTF happened.




Survivor threads have always been more about "least hated" than "most loved"; why else would Birthright and Lankhmar win the Survivor Setting threads?


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## the Jester (Aug 21, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 18
Bellairs, John 21
Brackett, Leigh 20
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 21
Carter, Lin 20
de Camp, L. Sprague 20
de Camp & Pratt 20
*Derleth, August 20 -2 =18*
Dunsany, Lord 18
Farmer, P. J. 20
Fox, Gardner 20
Howard, R. E. 19
Lanier, Sterling 20
Leiber, Fritz 21
Lovecraft, H. P. 7
Merritt, A. 21 
Moorcock, Michael 22
Norton, Andre 21
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 18
St. Clair, Margaret 20
Tolkien, J. R. R. 22
Vance, Jack 19
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 20
Williamson, Jack 18
*Zelazny, Roger 21 +1 = 22*

My +1 was easy. I had to look in to what some of the others wrote for my -2.


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## Blue (Aug 21, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 18
Bellairs, John 21
Brackett, Leigh 20 - 2 = 18
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 21
Carter, Lin 20
de Camp, L. Sprague 20
de Camp & Pratt 20
Derleth, August 18
Dunsany, Lord 18
Farmer, P. J. 20
Fox, Gardner 20
Howard, R. E. 19
Lanier, Sterling 20
Leiber, Fritz 21
Lovecraft, H. P. 7
Merritt, A. 21
Moorcock, Michael 22
Norton, Andre 21
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 18
St. Clair, Margaret 20
Tolkien, J. R. R. 22
Vance, Jack 19
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 20
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 22 + 1 = 23


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## Ed Laprade (Aug 21, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 18
Bellairs, John 21
Brackett, Leigh 18
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 21
Carter, Lin 20
de Camp, L. Sprague 20
de Camp & Pratt 20
Derleth, August 18 -2 = 16
Dunsany, Lord 18
Farmer, P. J. 20
Fox, Gardner 20
Howard, R. E. 19
Lanier, Sterling 20
Leiber, Fritz 21
Lovecraft, H. P. 7
Merritt, A. 21
Moorcock, Michael 22
Norton, Andre 21 +1 = 2
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 18
St. Clair, Margaret 20
Tolkien, J. R. R. 22
Vance, Jack 19
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 20
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 23


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## Paul Farquhar (Aug 21, 2018)

I'm beginning to think Appendix N should be devided into two sections: authors to read for inspiration;  authors cited as having inspired D&D but are now too dated to be readable.


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## lowkey13 (Aug 21, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


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## Dausuul (Aug 21, 2018)

Prakriti said:


> Lots of axe-grinding so far. I guess it's too much to ask that people focus on downvoting the obscure, no-name also-rans before tackling the big-name authors. We get it, you think super-popular-legendary-iconic-author is over-appreciated. Does that mean that they deserve to fall before Sterling-fricking-Lanier, whose greatest claim to fame is _appearing in Appendix N of the AD&D DMG_?
> 
> The way things are going now, we're going to end up with Andrew Offutt, Fletcher Pratt, and Manley Wade Wellman in the final 3, and people are going to wonder WTF happened.



The fact that some no-name also-ran might emerge victorious because the big names beat each other to a pulp is part of the fun. It rarely happens, but the possibility adds spice to the game.

Without tactical voting, irrational vendettas, dogpiling the leader, and people casting "kill" downvotes out of sheer bloodlust, Survivor threads would be very dull indeed.


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## Bradley Hindman (Aug 21, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 18
Bellairs, John 21
Brackett, Leigh 18
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 21
Carter, Lin 20
de Camp, L. Sprague 20
de Camp & Pratt 20
*Derleth, August 14*
Dunsany, Lord 18
Farmer, P. J. 20
Fox, Gardner 20
Howard, R. E. 19
Lanier, Sterling 20
Leiber, Fritz 21
Lovecraft, H. P. 7
Merritt, A. 21
Moorcock, Michael 22
Norton, Andre 22
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 18
St. Clair, Margaret 20
Tolkien, J. R. R. 22
Vance, Jack 19
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 20
Williamson, Jack 18
*Zelazny, Roger 24*

Fixing the prior cross-post between me and the Jester.


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## akr71 (Aug 21, 2018)

Wow, I've heard of many of these authors and have a number of them on my _I should read that someday_ list, but the only one I have actually read anything by is Tolkien.  I'm not fit to vote in this one (and I read a lot in my younger days).


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## Reynard (Aug 21, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 18
Bellairs, John 21
Brackett, Leigh 18
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 21
Carter, Lin 20
de Camp, L. Sprague 20-2=18 For ruining good Conan stories.
de Camp & Pratt 20
Derleth, August 14
Dunsany, Lord 18+1=19 because without him, none of these others would exist.
Farmer, P. J. 20
Fox, Gardner 20
Howard, R. E. 19
Lanier, Sterling 20
Leiber, Fritz 21
Lovecraft, H. P. 7
Merritt, A. 21
Moorcock, Michael 22
Norton, Andre 22
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 18
St. Clair, Margaret 20
Tolkien, J. R. R. 22
Vance, Jack 19
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 20
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 24


----------



## Reynard (Aug 21, 2018)

Also, I can't believe you made this list without putting Clark Ashton Smith on it. For shame.


----------



## rczarnec (Aug 21, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 18
Bellairs, John 21
Brackett, Leigh 18
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 21
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp, L. Sprague 18
de Camp & Pratt 20
Derleth, August 14
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 20
Fox, Gardner 20
Howard, R. E. 19
Lanier, Sterling 20
Leiber, Fritz 21
Lovecraft, H. P. 7
Merritt, A. 21
Moorcock, Michael 23
Norton, Andre 22
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 18
St. Clair, Margaret 20
Tolkien, J. R. R. 22
Vance, Jack 19
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 20
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 24


----------



## Prakriti (Aug 21, 2018)

Reynard said:


> Also, I can't believe you made this list without putting Clark Ashton Smith on it. For shame.



This is a list of authors that appeared in Appendix N (Inspirational and Educational Reading) of the 1E DMG. Your beef is with Gary Gygax, not Lowkey.


----------



## Reynard (Aug 21, 2018)

Prakriti said:


> This is a list of authors that appeared in Appendix N (Inspirational and Educational Reading) of the 1E DMG. Your beef is with Gary Gygax, not Lowkey.



I could have sworn Appendix N eas where I first heard of CAS.


----------



## OB1 (Aug 21, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 18-2=16
Bellairs, John 21
Brackett, Leigh 18
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 21
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp, L. Sprague 18
de Camp & Pratt 20
Derleth, August 14
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 20
Fox, Gardner 20
Howard, R. E. 19
Lanier, Sterling 20
Leiber, Fritz 21
Lovecraft, H. P. 7
Merritt, A. 21
Moorcock, Michael 23
Norton, Andre 22
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 18
St. Clair, Margaret 20+1=21
Tolkien, J. R. R. 22
Vance, Jack 19
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 20
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 24


----------



## Invisible Stalker (Aug 22, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 16
Bellairs, John 21
Brackett, Leigh 18
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 21
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp, L. Sprague 18
de Camp & Pratt 20
Derleth, August 14
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 20
Gardner, Fox 21  this is an entirely comic book vote
Howard, R. E. 19
Lanier, Sterling 20
Leiber, Fritz 21
Lovecraft HP 5  one of the easiest downvotes I'll ever have
Merritt, A. 21
Moorcock, Michael 23
Norton, Andre 22
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
Tolkien, J. R. R. 22
Vance, Jack 19
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 20
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 24


----------



## TiwazTyrsfist (Aug 22, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 16
Bellairs, John 21
Brackett, Leigh 18
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 21
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp, L. Sprague 18
de Camp & Pratt 20
Derleth, August 14
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 20
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R. E. 19
Lanier, Sterling 20
Leiber, Fritz 21
Lovecraft HP 5
Merritt, A. 21
Moorcock, Michael 23
Norton, Andre 22
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
*Tolkien, J. R. R. 20* - Good Stories wrapped in impenetrably deliberately bad writing for pretentious aesthetic reason.  The Samarillion is a crime against readers and literacy. 
*Vance, Jack 20* - Hate Vancian spellcasting all you want, but his stories were good and the system works well in a narrative structure.
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 20
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 24


----------



## StormbringerAUS (Aug 22, 2018)

TiwazTyrsfist said:


> *Tolkien, J. R. R. 20* - Good Stories wrapped in impenetrably deliberately bad writing for pretentious aesthetic reason.  The Samarillion is a crime against readers and literacy.
> *Vance, Jack 20* - Hate Vancian spellcasting all you want, but his stories were good and the system works well in a narrative structure.




Everyone is more than entitled to an opinion, and personally I love Tolkien and have read the Silmarilion many times and think it is great, but if you are going to criticise something as 'crime against readers and literacy' you should at least get the spelling right or your argument loses all credibility.


----------



## StormbringerAUS (Aug 22, 2018)

Well so many great authors and since David Gemmell is not listed among them I think we should call it a draw.

[/COLOR]Anderson, Poul 20
Bellairs, John 20
Brackett, Leigh 20
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 20
Carter, Lin 20
de Camp, L. Sprague 20
de Camp & Pratt 20
Derleth, August 20
Dunsany, Lord 20
Farmer, P. J. 20
Fox, Gardner 20
Howard, R. E. 20
Lanier, Sterling 20
Leiber, Fritz 20
Lovecraft, H. P. 20
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 20
Norton, Andre 20
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 20
St. Clair, Margaret 20
Tolkien, J. R. R. 20
Vance, Jack 20
Weinbaum, Stanley 20
Wellman, Manley Wade 20
Williamson, Jack 20
Zelazny, Roger 20[/QUOTE]


----------



## Maxperson (Aug 22, 2018)

StormbringerAUS said:


> Everyone is more than entitled to an opinion, and personally I love Tolkien and have read the Silmarilion many times and think it is great, but if you are going to criticise something as 'crime against readers and literacy' you should at least get the spelling right or your argument loses all credibility.




Yeah.  If Sam was going to have his name added to any of the books, it would be Sam of the Rings.  That's where he shone.


----------



## Maxperson (Aug 22, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 14
Bellairs, John 21
Brackett, Leigh 18
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 21
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp, L. Sprague 18
de Camp & Pratt 20
Derleth, August 14
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 20
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R. E. 19
Lanier, Sterling 20
Leiber, Fritz 22
Lovecraft HP 5
Merritt, A. 21
Moorcock, Michael 23
Norton, Andre 22
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
Tolkien, J. R. R. 20 
Vance, Jack 20 
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 20
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 24


----------



## Parmandur (Aug 22, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 16
Bellairs, John 21
Brackett, Leigh 18
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 21
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp, L. Sprague 18
de Camp & Pratt 20
Derleth, August 14
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 20
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R. E. 19
Lanier, Sterling 20
Leiber, Fritz 21
Lovecraft HP 5
Merritt, A. 21
Moorcock, Michael 23
Norton, Andre 22
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 18 
St. Clair, Margaret 21 
*Tolkien, J. R. R. 21* - 
*Vance, Jack 18* 
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 20
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 24


----------



## Maxperson (Aug 22, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 14
Bellairs, John 21
Brackett, Leigh 18
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 21
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp, L. Sprague 18
de Camp & Pratt 20
Derleth, August 14
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 20
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R. E. 19
Lanier, Sterling 20
Leiber, Fritz 22
Lovecraft HP 5
Merritt, A. 21
Moorcock, Michael 23
Norton, Andre 22
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 18 
St. Clair, Margaret 21 
Tolkien, J. R. R. 21 
Vance, Jack 18 
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 20
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 24

Corrected the numbers


----------



## StormbringerAUS (Aug 22, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 16
Bellairs, John 21
Brackett, Leigh 18
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 21
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp, L. Sprague 18
de Camp & Pratt 20
Derleth, August 14
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 20
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R. E. 19
Lanier, Sterling 20
Leiber, Fritz 21
Lovecraft HP 5
Merritt, A. 21
Moorcock, Michael 23
Norton, Andre 22
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 18 
St. Clair, Margaret 21 
*Tolkien, J. R. R. 22* - 
*Vance, Jack 16* 
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 20
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 24


----------



## lowkey13 (Aug 22, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


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## Paul Farquhar (Aug 22, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 14
Bellairs, John 21
Brackett, Leigh 18
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 21
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp, L. Sprague 18
de Camp & Pratt 20
Derleth, August 14
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 20
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R. E. 19
Lanier, Sterling 20
Leiber, Fritz 22
Lovecraft HP 5
Merritt, A. 21
Moorcock, Michael 23
Norton, Andre 20 - sorry fans, tried one couldn't get on with it.
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 18 
St. Clair, Margaret 21 
Tolkien, J. R. R. 23 
Vance, Jack 16 
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 20
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 24

Probably a bunch of free passes for authors I haven't read, and maybe more damning, have read but can't remember.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Aug 22, 2018)

akr71 said:


> Wow, I've heard of many of these authors and have a number of them on my _I should read that someday_ list, but the only one I have actually read anything by is Tolkien.  I'm not fit to vote in this one (and I read a lot in my younger days).




Quite a few where out of print for quite some time (some for good reason). I think you can find most available digitally now though.


----------



## akr71 (Aug 22, 2018)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Quite a few where out of print for quite some time (some for good reason). I think you can find most available digitally now though.




We've got a pretty good used bookstore where I live.  I had Moorcock & Vance in my hand one day but put them back in favor of Dune (which I still have not read).


----------



## tglassy (Aug 22, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 14
Bellairs, John 21
Brackett, Leigh 18
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 21
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp, L. Sprague 18
de Camp & Pratt 20
Derleth, August 14
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 20
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R. E. 19
Lanier, Sterling 20
Leiber, Fritz 22
Lovecraft HP 5
Merritt, A. 21
Moorcock, Michael 23
Norton, Andre 20
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 18 
St. Clair, Margaret 21 
Tolkien, J. R. R. 23 + 1 = 24
Vance, Jack 16 
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 20
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 24 - 2 = 22


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Aug 22, 2018)

akr71 said:


> We've got a pretty good used bookstore where I live.  I had Moorcock & Vance in my hand one day but put them back in favor of Dune (which I still have not read).




Moorcock is still alive and writing. It wasn't him I was thinking of.

Edit: And you should read Dune.

Edit: I wonder how many others are still alive? Zelazny died not so long ago.


----------



## Tallifer (Aug 22, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 14
Bellairs, John 21
Brackett, Leigh 18
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 21
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp, L. Sprague 18
de Camp & Pratt 20
Derleth, August 14
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 20
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R. E. 19
Lanier, Sterling 20
Leiber, Fritz 22
Lovecraft HP 5
Merritt, A. 21
Moorcock, Michael 24
Norton, Andre 20
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 18 
St. Clair, Margaret 21 
Tolkien, J. R. R. 24
Vance, Jack 16 
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 20
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 20


----------



## rczarnec (Aug 22, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 14
Bellairs, John 21
Brackett, Leigh 18
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 21
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp, L. Sprague 18
de Camp & Pratt 20
Derleth, August 14
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 20
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R. E. 19
Lanier, Sterling 20
Leiber, Fritz 22
Lovecraft HP 6
Merritt, A. 21
Moorcock, Michael 24
Norton, Andre 20
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 18 
St. Clair, Margaret 21 
Tolkien, J. R. R. 24
Vance, Jack 14
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 20
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 20


----------



## Dausuul (Aug 22, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 14
Bellairs, John 21
Brackett, Leigh 18
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 21
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp, L. Sprague 18
de Camp & Pratt 20
Derleth, August 14
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 20
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R. E. 19
Lanier, Sterling 20
Leiber, Fritz 22
Lovecraft HP 4
Merritt, A. 21
Moorcock, Michael 24
Norton, Andre 20
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 18 
St. Clair, Margaret 21 
Tolkien, J. R. R. 24
Vance, Jack 14
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 20
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21

Tolkien does not seem to be running away with things just yet, so I'll keep hitting Lovecraft... for now.


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## lowkey13 (Aug 22, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


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## Maxperson (Aug 22, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 12
Bellairs, John 21
Brackett, Leigh 18
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 21
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp, L. Sprague 18
de Camp & Pratt 20
Derleth, August 14
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 20
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R. E. 19
Lanier, Sterling 20
Leiber, Fritz 22
Lovecraft HP 6
Merritt, A. 21
Moorcock, Michael 24
Norton, Andre 20
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 18 
St. Clair, Margaret 21 
Tolkien, J. R. R. 22
Vance, Jack 14
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 20
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21

I can get behind the Lovecraft love.


----------



## OB1 (Aug 22, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 10
Bellairs, John 21
Brackett, Leigh 18
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 21
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp, L. Sprague 18
de Camp & Pratt 20
Derleth, August 14
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 20
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R. E. 19
Lanier, Sterling 20
Leiber, Fritz 22
Lovecraft HP 6
Merritt, A. 21
Moorcock, Michael 24
Norton, Andre 20
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 18 
St. Clair, Margaret 22
Tolkien, J. R. R. 22
Vance, Jack 14
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 20
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21


----------



## Eltab (Aug 22, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 10
Bellairs, John 21
Brackett, Leigh 18
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 21
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp, L. Sprague 18
de Camp & Pratt 20
Derleth, August 14
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 20
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R. E. 19
Lanier, Sterling 20
Leiber, Fritz 22
*Lovecraft HP 6 - 2 = 4*  -cue music- He drives me crazy...
Merritt, A. 21
Moorcock, Michael 24
Norton, Andre 20
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 18 
St. Clair, Margaret 22
*Tolkien, J. R. R. 22 + 1 = 23* _Silmarillion_ is the Cliffs Notes for a 5-novel series of myth / adventure stories.  
Vance, Jack 14
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 20
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21


----------



## Tyler Do'Urden (Aug 22, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 10
Bellairs, John 21
Brackett, Leigh 18
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 21
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp, L. Sprague 18
de Camp & Pratt 20
Derleth, August 14
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 20
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R. E. 19
Lanier, Sterling 20
Leiber, Fritz 22
Lovecraft HP 4
Merritt, A. 21
Moorcock, Michael 24
Norton, Andre 20
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 18 
St. Clair, Margaret 20
Tolkien, J. R. R. 24
Vance, Jack 14
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 20
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21


----------



## Ralif Redhammer (Aug 22, 2018)

As much as I love my Kindle (and yes, you can get a number of Appendix N authors’ works free of charge or very cheaply), there’s something about the smell of a nicely aged 1970s paperback, the feel of the paper.

Also, Dune is totally worth reading. If it helps, it’s pretty much fantasy masquerading as sci-fi.



akr71 said:


> We've got a pretty good used bookstore where I live.  I had Moorcock & Vance in my hand one day but put them back in favor of Dune (which I still have not read).


----------



## Gradine (Aug 22, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 10
Bellairs, John 21
Brackett, Leigh 18
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 21
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp, L. Sprague 18
de Camp & Pratt 20
Derleth, August 14
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 20
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R. E. 19
Lanier, Sterling 20
Leiber, Fritz 22
Lovecraft HP 2 Almost cast into the deep ravine
Merritt, A. 21
Moorcock, Michael 24
Norton, Andre 21
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 18
St. Clair, Margaret 20
Tolkien, J. R. R. 24
Vance, Jack 14
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 20
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21


----------



## Prakriti (Aug 22, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 10
Bellairs, John 21
Brackett, Leigh 18
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 21
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp, L. Sprague 18
de Camp & Pratt 20
Derleth, August 14
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 20
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R. E. 19
Lanier, Sterling 20
Leiber, Fritz 22
Lovecraft HP 2
Merritt, A. 21
Moorcock, Michael 24
Norton, Andre 21
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 18
St. Clair, Margaret 18
Tolkien, J. R. R. 25
Vance, Jack 14
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 20
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21


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## lowkey13 (Aug 22, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


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## Prakriti (Aug 22, 2018)

Actually, Lovecraft is now dead. There's been a discrepancy since post #20. Here's the corrected list:

Anderson, Poul 10
Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 18
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 21
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp, L. Sprague 18
de Camp & Pratt 20
Derleth, August 14
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 20
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R. E. 19
Lanier, Sterling 20
Leiber, Fritz 22
*Lovecraft HP 0 DEAD!*
Merritt, A. 21
Moorcock, Michael 25
Norton, Andre 21
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 18
St. Clair, Margaret 18
Tolkien, J. R. R. 26
Vance, Jack 14
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 20
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21


----------



## lowkey13 (Aug 22, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


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## Gradine (Aug 22, 2018)

lowkey13 said:


>


----------



## lowkey13 (Aug 22, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


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## Prakriti (Aug 22, 2018)

lowkey13 said:


> The mistake was corrected in post #24.



Apparently they corrected everything but John Bellairs (guess they missed that one), so I'm reverting my changes to Tolkien and Moorcock too.

Anderson, Poul 10
Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 18
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 21
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp, L. Sprague 18
de Camp & Pratt 20
Derleth, August 14
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 20
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R. E. 19
Lanier, Sterling 20
Leiber, Fritz 22
Lovecraft HP 2
Merritt, A. 21
Moorcock, Michael 24
Norton, Andre 21
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 18
St. Clair, Margaret 18
Tolkien, J. R. R. 25
Vance, Jack 14
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 20
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Aug 22, 2018)

> Apparently they corrected everything but John Bellairs


----------



## TiwazTyrsfist (Aug 22, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 10
Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 18
Brown, Frederic 20
*Burroughs, Edgar Rice 22*
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp, L. Sprague 18
de Camp & Pratt 20
Derleth, August 14
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 20
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R. E. 19
Lanier, Sterling 20
Leiber, Fritz 22
Lovecraft HP 2
Merritt, A. 21
Moorcock, Michael 24
Norton, Andre 21
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 18
St. Clair, Margaret 18
*Tolkien, J. R. R. 23* I'd just like to apologize of misspelling Slime-arilliion in my previous post.
Vance, Jack 14
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 20
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21


----------



## lowkey13 (Aug 22, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


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## Yardiff (Aug 22, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 10
Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 18
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 22+1=23
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp, L. Sprague 18
de Camp & Pratt 20
Derleth, August 14
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 20
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R. E. 19
Lanier, Sterling 20
Leiber, Fritz 22
Lovecraft HP 2-2=0 The first to go...the horror!
Merritt, A. 21
Moorcock, Michael 24
Norton, Andre 21
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 18
St. Clair, Margaret 18
Tolkien, J. R. R. 23 
Vance, Jack 14
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 20
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21


----------



## Bradley Hindman (Aug 22, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 10
Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 18
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp, L. Sprague 18
de Camp & Pratt 20
*Derleth, August 14 - 2 = 12         . . . the derivative author should* *have been the first to go!*
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 20
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R. E. 19
Lanier, Sterling 20
Leiber, Fritz 22
Merritt, A. 21
Moorcock, Michael 24
*Norton, Andre 21 + 1 = 22*
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 18
St. Clair, Margaret 18
Tolkien, J. R. R. 23 
Vance, Jack 14
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 20
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21


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## Invisible Stalker (Aug 22, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 10
Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 18
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp, L. Sprague 18
de Camp & Pratt 20
Derleth, August 12
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 20
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 19
Lanier, Sterling 20
Leiber, Fritz 22
Merritt, A. 21
Moorcock, Michael 22  UH OH 
Norton, Andre 22
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 18
St. Clair, Margaret 18
Tolkien, J. R. R. 23
Vance, Jack 15  If loving Vancian magic is wrong, I don't want to be right
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 20
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21


----------



## Ed Laprade (Aug 22, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 10
Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 18
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp, L. Sprague 18
de Camp & Pratt 20
Derleth, August 12 -2 = 10
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 20
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 19
Lanier, Sterling 20
Leiber, Fritz 22
Merritt, A. 21
Moorcock, Michael 22  
Norton, Andre 22 +1 = 23
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 18
St. Clair, Margaret 18
Tolkien, J. R. R. 23
Vance, Jack 15 
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 20
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21


----------



## Lord Mhoram (Aug 22, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 10
    Bellairs, John 19
    Brackett, Leigh 18
    Brown, Frederic 20
    Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
    Carter, Lin 18
    de Camp, L. Sprague 18
    de Camp & Pratt 20
    Derleth, August  10
    Dunsany, Lord 19
    Farmer, P. J. 20
    Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 17
    Lanier, Sterling 20
    Leiber, Fritz 22
    Merritt, A. 21
    Moorcock, Michael 22
Norton, Andre 24
    Offutt, Andrew J. 20
    Pratt, Fletcher 20
    Saberhagen, Fred 18
    St. Clair, Margaret 18
    Tolkien, J. R. R. 23
    Vance, Jack 15
    Weinbaum, Stanley 18
    Wellman, Manley Wade 20
    Williamson, Jack 18
    Zelazny, Roger 21


----------



## Flexor the Mighty! (Aug 22, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 10
Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 18
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp, L. Sprague 18
de Camp & Pratt 20
Derleth, August 10
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 20
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 19
Lanier, Sterling 20
Leiber, Fritz 22 + 1 = 23
Merritt, A. 21
Moorcock, Michael 22  
Norton, Andre 23
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 18
St. Clair, Margaret 18
Tolkien, J. R. R. 23 - 2 = 21
Vance, Jack 15 
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 20
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21

I would have upvoted Lovecraft but he's gone and JRRT had great world building ideas but the LOTR books were a chore to read IMO compared to many other fantasy writers.


----------



## Reynard (Aug 22, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 10
Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 18
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp, L. Sprague 18
de Camp & Pratt 20
Derleth, August 10-2=8
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 20
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 19
Lanier, Sterling 20
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 21
Moorcock, Michael 22  
Norton, Andre 23
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 18
St. Clair, Margaret 18
Tolkien, J. R. R. 21
Vance, Jack 15+1=16
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 20
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21


----------



## chrisrtld (Aug 22, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 10
Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 18
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp, L. Sprague 18
de Camp & Pratt 20
Derleth, August 6
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 20
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 19
Lanier, Sterling 20
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 21
Moorcock, Michael 22  
Norton, Andre 23
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 18
St. Clair, Margaret 18
Tolkien, J. R. R. 22
Vance, Jack 16
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 20
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21


----------



## JonnyP71 (Aug 22, 2018)

Never heard of most of these, let alone read their stuff - never will, the existence of the internet and the presence of 2 kids in my household do not allow my ADHD-fied brain to focus long enough...

Anderson, Poul 10
Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 18
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp, L. Sprague 16  Stupid name
de Camp & Pratt 20
Derleth, August 6
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 20
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 19
Lanier, Sterling 20
Leiber, Fritz 24 Read some Fafhrd/Mouser stuff in the 80s, enjoyed it.
Merritt, A. 21
Moorcock, Michael 22
Norton, Andre 23
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 18
St. Clair, Margaret 18
Tolkien, J. R. R. 22
Vance, Jack 16
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 20
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21


----------



## Dausuul (Aug 23, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 10
Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 18
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp, L. Sprague 16 Stupid name
de Camp & Pratt 20
Derleth, August 6
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 20
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 19
Lanier, Sterling 20
Leiber, Fritz 24
Merritt, A. 21
Moorcock, Michael 22
Norton, Andre 23
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 18
St. Clair, Margaret 18
Tolkien, J. R. R. 22
Vance, Jack 14 - This is for all the wizards I've played in 30 years of gaming.
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 20
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 22


----------



## Parmandur (Aug 23, 2018)

Dausuul said:


> Anderson, Poul 10
> Bellairs, John 19
> Brackett, Leigh 18
> Brown, Frederic 20
> ...


----------



## Wulffolk (Aug 23, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 10
Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 18
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp, L. Sprague 16 Stupid name
de Camp & Pratt 20
Derleth, August 6
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 20
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 19
Lanier, Sterling 20
Leiber, Fritz 24
Merritt, A. 21
Moorcock, Michael 22
Norton, Andre 23
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 18
St. Clair, Margaret 18
Tolkien, J. R. R. 24
Vance, Jack 10
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 20
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 22


----------



## StormbringerAUS (Aug 23, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 10
Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 18
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp, L. Sprague 16 Stupid name
de Camp & Pratt 20
Derleth, August 6
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 20
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 19
Lanier, Sterling 20
Leiber, Fritz 24
Merritt, A. 21
Moorcock, Michael 22
Norton, Andre 23
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 18
St. Clair, Margaret 18
Tolkien, J. R. R. 25
Vance, Jack 8
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 20
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 22


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Aug 23, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 10
Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 18
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp, L. Sprague 16 Stupid name
de Camp & Pratt 20
Derleth, August 6
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 20
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 19
Lanier, Sterling 20
Leiber, Fritz 24
Merritt, A. 21
Moorcock, Michael 22
Norton, Andre 23
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 18
St. Clair, Margaret 18
Tolkien, J. R. R. 26
Vance, Jack 6 - your casting sucks
Ward, Charles Dexter 20
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 20
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 22


----------



## Tallifer (Aug 23, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 10
Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 18
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp, L. Sprague 16 
de Camp & Pratt 20
Derleth, August 6
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 20
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 19
Lanier, Sterling 20
Leiber, Fritz 22
Merritt, A. 21
Moorcock, Michael 22
Norton, Andre 23
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 18
St. Clair, Margaret 18
Tolkien, J. R. R. 27
Vance, Jack 6 
Ward, Charles Dexter 20
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 20
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 22


----------



## tglassy (Aug 23, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 10
Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 18
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp, L. Sprague 16 
de Camp & Pratt 20
Derleth, August 6
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 20
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 19
Lanier, Sterling 20
Leiber, Fritz 22
Merritt, A. 21
Moorcock, Michael 22
Norton, Andre 23 - 2 = 21
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 18
St. Clair, Margaret 18
Tolkien, J. R. R. 27 + 1 = 28
Vance, Jack 6 
Ward, Charles Dexter 20
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 20
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 22


----------



## grimslade (Aug 23, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 10
Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 18
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp, L. Sprague 16 
de Camp & Pratt 20
Derleth, August 4
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 20
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 19
Lanier, Sterling 20
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 21
Moorcock, Michael 22
Norton, Andre 23 - 2 = 21
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 18
St. Clair, Margaret 18
Tolkien, J. R. R. 27 + 1 = 28
Vance, Jack 6 
Ward, Charles Dexter 20
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 20
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 22

I voted based on the impact Appendix N had on me. I discovered Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser at the age of 10 and still read them today all because of EGG recommendation. In the same vein, I tried August Derleth because I enjoyed the futile horror of HP Lovecraft, but Derleth was all the racism without the inventiveness.


----------



## lowkey13 (Aug 23, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


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## OB1 (Aug 23, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 10
Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 18
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp, L. Sprague 17 
de Camp & Pratt 20
Derleth, August 2
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 20
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 19
Lanier, Sterling 20
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 21
Moorcock, Michael 22
Norton, Andre 21
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 18
St. Clair, Margaret 19
Tolkien, J. R. R. 26
Vance, Jack 6 
Ward, Charles Dexter 20
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 20
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 22


----------



## Parmandur (Aug 23, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 10
Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 18
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp, L. Sprague 17 
de Camp & Pratt 20
Derleth, August 0 buhbye 
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 20
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 19
Lanier, Sterling 20
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 21
Moorcock, Michael 22
Norton, Andre 21
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 18
St. Clair, Margaret 19
Tolkien, J. R. R. 27
Vance, Jack 6 
Ward, Charles Dexter 20
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 20
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 22


----------



## lowkey13 (Aug 23, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


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## Tyler Do'Urden (Aug 23, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 10
Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 18
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp, L. Sprague 17 
de Camp & Pratt 20 
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 20
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 19
Lanier, Sterling 20
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 19
Moorcock, Michael 22
Norton, Andre 21
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 18
St. Clair, Margaret 19
Tolkien, J. R. R. 28
Vance, Jack 6 
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 20
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 22


----------



## rczarnec (Aug 23, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 10
Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 18
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp, L. Sprague 17 
de Camp & Pratt 20 
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 20
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 19
Lanier, Sterling 20
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 19
Moorcock, Michael 23
Norton, Andre 21
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 18
St. Clair, Margaret 19
Tolkien, J. R. R. 28
Vance, Jack 4
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 20
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 22


----------



## Ralif Redhammer (Aug 23, 2018)

Upvoting my second choice, Moorcock. Downvoting Saberhagen. As much as I wanted to like Saberhagen’s Swords series, it just felt tepid to me. He had some great ideas, don’t get me wrong. But ideas alone do not a great read make.

Anderson, Poul 10
Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 18
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp, L. Sprague 17 
de Camp & Pratt 20 
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 20
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 19
Lanier, Sterling 20
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 19
Moorcock, Michael 23
Norton, Andre 21
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 16
St. Clair, Margaret 19
Tolkien, J. R. R. 28
Vance, Jack 6 
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 20
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 22


----------



## Gradine (Aug 23, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 10
Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 18
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp, L. Sprague 17
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 20
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 17
Lanier, Sterling 20
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 19
Moorcock, Michael 23
Norton, Andre 22
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 16
St. Clair, Margaret 19
Tolkien, J. R. R. 28
Vance, Jack 6
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 20
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 22


----------



## Flexor the Mighty! (Aug 23, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 10
Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 18
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp, L. Sprague 17
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 20
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 17
Lanier, Sterling 20
Leiber, Fritz 23 + 1 = 24
Merritt, A. 19
Moorcock, Michael 23
Norton, Andre 22 - 2 = 20
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 16
St. Clair, Margaret 19
Tolkien, J. R. R. 28
Vance, Jack 6
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 20
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 22

Fritz, Fritz, Fritz, Fritz!!!!!


----------



## Prakriti (Aug 23, 2018)

Adding #107/rczarnec's votes, since they got skipped, plus my own

Anderson, Poul 10
Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 18
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp, L. Sprague 17
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 20
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 17
Lanier, Sterling 20
Leiber, Fritz 24
Merritt, A. 19
Moorcock, Michael 24
Norton, Andre 20
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 16
St. Clair, Margaret 19
Tolkien, J. R. R. 29
Vance, Jack 4
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 18
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 22


----------



## Yardiff (Aug 23, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 10
Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 18
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23+1=24
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp, L. Sprague 17
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 20
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 17
Lanier, Sterling 20-2=18
Leiber, Fritz 24
Merritt, A. 19
Moorcock, Michael 24
Norton, Andre 20
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 16
St. Clair, Margaret 19
Tolkien, J. R. R. 29
Vance, Jack 4
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 18
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 22


----------



## Lord Mhoram (Aug 23, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 10
Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 18
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23+1=24
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp, L. Sprague 17
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 20
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 15
Lanier, Sterling 20-2=18
Leiber, Fritz 24
Merritt, A. 19
Moorcock, Michael 24
Norton, Andre 20
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 16
St. Clair, Margaret 19
Tolkien, J. R. R. 30
Vance, Jack 4
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 18
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 22


----------



## Ed Laprade (Aug 23, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 10
Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 18 -2 = 16
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 24
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp, L. Sprague 17
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 20
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 15
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 24
Merritt, A. 19
Moorcock, Michael 24
Norton, Andre 20 +1 = 21
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 16
St. Clair, Margaret 19
Tolkien, J. R. R. 30
Vance, Jack 4
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 18
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 22


----------



## Bradley Hindman (Aug 23, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 10
Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 16
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 24
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp, L. Sprague 17
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 20
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 15
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 24
Merritt, A. 19
Moorcock, Michael 24
Norton, Andre 21
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 16
St. Clair, Margaret 19
*Tolkien, J. R. R. 30 - 2 = 28*
Vance, Jack 4
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 18
Williamson, Jack 18
*Zelazny, Roger 22 + 1 = 23*

Voting for one my favorites, and downvoting an author I really enjoyed as a youth, but can't wade through again as an adult. (Just a change in my preferences; don't read anything more into it.)


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## chrisrtld (Aug 23, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 10
Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 16
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 24
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp, L. Sprague 17
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 20
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 15
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 24
Merritt, A. 19
Moorcock, Michael 24
Norton, Andre 21
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 16
St. Clair, Margaret 19
*Tolkien, J. R. R. 29*
*Vance, Jack 2*
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 18
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 23


----------



## Invisible Stalker (Aug 23, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 10
Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 16
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 25
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp, L. Sprague 17
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 20
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 15
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 24
Merritt, A. 19
Moorcock, Michael 24
Norton, Andre 21
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 16
St. Clair, Margaret 17
Tolkien, J. R. R. 29
Vance, Jack 2
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 18
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 23


----------



## Reynard (Aug 23, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 10+1=11 The Broken Sword is one of the best fantasy novels ever written.
Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 16
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 25
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp, L. Sprague 17-2=15 Pastiche sucks.
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 20
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 15
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 24
Merritt, A. 19
Moorcock, Michael 24
Norton, Andre 21
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 16
St. Clair, Margaret 17
Tolkien, J. R. R. 29
Vance, Jack 2
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 18
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 23


----------



## Lidgar (Aug 24, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 11
Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 16
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 25
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp, L. Sprague 15
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 20
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 15
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 24
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 24
Norton, Andre 21
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 14
St. Clair, Margaret 17
Tolkien, J. R. R. 29
Vance, Jack 2
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 18
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 23


----------



## Maxperson (Aug 24, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 9
Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 16
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 25
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp, L. Sprague 15
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 20
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 15
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 24
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 24
Norton, Andre 21
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 14
St. Clair, Margaret 17
Tolkien, J. R. R. 29
Vance, Jack 2
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 18
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 24


----------



## StormbringerAUS (Aug 24, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 9
Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 16
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 25
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp, L. Sprague 15
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 20 + 1 = 21
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 15
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 24 - 2 =22
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 24
Norton, Andre 21
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 14
St. Clair, Margaret 17
Tolkien, J. R. R. 29
Vance, Jack 2
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 18
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 24


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Aug 24, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 9
Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 16
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 25
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp, L. Sprague 15
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 21
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 16
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 22
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 24
Norton, Andre 21
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 14
St. Clair, Margaret 17
Tolkien, J. R. R. 29
Vance, Jack 0 - no more memorisation for you
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 18
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 24


----------



## Tyler Do'Urden (Aug 24, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 9
Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 16
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 25
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp, L. Sprague 15
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 19
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 16
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 22
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 24
Norton, Andre 21
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 14
St. Clair, Margaret 17
Tolkien, J. R. R. 30 YOU SHALL NOT (BE) PASS(ED)!
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 18
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 24


----------



## GreyLord (Aug 24, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 7
Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 16
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 25
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp, L. Sprague 15
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 19
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 17
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 22
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 24
Norton, Andre 21
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 14
St. Clair, Margaret 17
Tolkien, J. R. R. 30 
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 18
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 24


----------



## Tallifer (Aug 24, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 7
Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 16
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 25
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp, L. Sprague 15
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 19
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 17
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 22
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 24
Norton, Andre 21
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 14
St. Clair, Margaret 17
Tolkien, J. R. R. 31 
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 18
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 22


----------



## lowkey13 (Aug 24, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


----------



## Dausuul (Aug 24, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 7
Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 16
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 25
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp, L. Sprague 15
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 19
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 17
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 22
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 24
Norton, Andre 21
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 14
St. Clair, Margaret 17
Tolkien, J. R. R. 27 
Weinbaum, Stanley 18
Wellman, Manley Wade 18
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 24


----------



## Blue (Aug 24, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 7
    Bellairs, John 19
    Brackett, Leigh 16
    Brown, Frederic 20
    Burroughs, Edgar Rice 25
    Carter, Lin 18
    de Camp, L. Sprague 15
    de Camp & Pratt 20
    Dunsany, Lord 19
    Farmer, P. J. 19
    Gardner, Fox 21
    Howard, R.E. 17
    Lanier, Sterling 18
    Leiber, Fritz 22
    Merritt, A. 20
    Moorcock, Michael 24
    Norton, Andre 22
    Offutt, Andrew J. 20
    Pratt, Fletcher 20
    Saberhagen, Fred 14
    St. Clair, Margaret 17
    Tolkien, J. R. R. 27
    Weinbaum, Stanley 16
    Wellman, Manley Wade 18
    Williamson, Jack 18
    Zelazny, Roger 24


----------



## Maxperson (Aug 24, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 5
    Bellairs, John 19
    Brackett, Leigh 16
    Brown, Frederic 20
    Burroughs, Edgar Rice 25
    Carter, Lin 18
    de Camp, L. Sprague 15
    de Camp & Pratt 20
    Dunsany, Lord 19
    Farmer, P. J. 19
    Gardner, Fox 21
    Howard, R.E. 17
    Lanier, Sterling 18
    Leiber, Fritz 22
    Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 25
    Norton, Andre 22
    Offutt, Andrew J. 20
    Pratt, Fletcher 20
    Saberhagen, Fred 14
    St. Clair, Margaret 17
    Tolkien, J. R. R. 27
    Weinbaum, Stanley 16
    Wellman, Manley Wade 18
    Williamson, Jack 18
    Zelazny, Roger 24


----------



## Reynard (Aug 24, 2018)

What is with everyone's hate-on for Anderson?


----------



## Dausuul (Aug 24, 2018)

Reynard said:


> What is with everyone's hate-on for Anderson?




No idea. It's been a while since I read any of his stuff, but my recollection is that it was competent if not inspired. He seems like the sort of guy who should be able to keep his head down while the writers who inspire love and hatred battle it out.

On the other hand, he's at the top of the list. Maybe that's his problem.


----------



## Parmandur (Aug 24, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 5
    Bellairs, John 19
    Brackett, Leigh 16
    Brown, Frederic 20
    Burroughs, Edgar Rice 25
    Carter, Lin 18
    de Camp, L. Sprague 15
    de Camp & Pratt 20
    Dunsany, Lord 19
    Farmer, P. J. 19
    Gardner, Fox 21
    Howard, R.E. 17
    Lanier, Sterling 18
    Leiber, Fritz 22
    Merritt, A. 20
   Moorcock, Michael 25
    Norton, Andre 22
    Offutt, Andrew J. 20
    Pratt, Fletcher 20
   Saberhagen, Fred 12 - No ody has upvotee him yet, and I couldn't even make it through any of his books.
    St. Clair, Margaret 17
 Tolkien, J. R. R. 28 -Actually impossible to overrated Tolkien
    Weinbaum, Stanley 16
    Wellman, Manley Wade 18
    Williamson, Jack 18
    Zelazny, Roger 24


----------



## lowkey13 (Aug 24, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


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## Reynard (Aug 24, 2018)

lowkey13 said:


> Three Hearts and Three Lions.
> 
> See, inter alia-
> https://www.tor.com/2013/06/17/advanced-readings-in-dad-poul-anderson/
> ...




But both Three Hearts and Three Lions and The Broken Sword are actually really good fantasy. I mean, whatever, these threads aren't about what's good. But if you down vote Anderson, know that I am judging you.


----------



## lowkey13 (Aug 24, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


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## Ralif Redhammer (Aug 24, 2018)

I’ve not heard that before. It wouldn’t surprise me, as I still suspect both the Barbarian and Cavalier classes to be traps for power-gamers (for all their strength, one has a code of conduct that practically guarantees death in a few sessions, the other has absolutely massive XP requirements). 

But...considering Gygax's personal beliefs and the otherwise straightforward influence of Three Hearts Three Lions, do you have a citation on this?



lowkey13 said:


> So, here's the history.
> 
> Gygax (who could do no wrong) began to include the Paladin as a "joke" class, in order to catch people that were copying his works. That's right- just like a mapmaker will include fake towns, Gygax included an obscenely terrible and OP class to make sure that no one was copying him.


----------



## lowkey13 (Aug 24, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


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## GreyLord (Aug 24, 2018)

Dausuul said:


> No idea. It's been a while since I read any of his stuff, but my recollection is that it was competent if not inspired. He seems like the sort of guy who should be able to keep his head down while the writers who inspire love and hatred battle it out.
> 
> On the other hand, he's at the top of the list. Maybe that's his problem.




Naw, he's one that I just don't like for other reasons.  He's far over-rated.  He got many more awards than far better authors who received none, and his acclaim is held far too high.  Give me Howard or Burroughs or Leiber or Moorcock any day over Anderson.  He's not bad, just over-rated in my opinion in relation to some of the others on the list.

Of course, I probably should have more disdain for De Camp who tried to claim the Conan character as his own (and robbing Howard of his glory).  Due to De Camp, the true Conan stories of Howard's mark were hidden for many years.

However, unfortunately, I must admit, this is balanced out because without De Camp it is possible Conan (and thus many other REH works as well) would have been forgotten and lost to time (much like F Van Wyck Mason's works and the Cutlass empire has been).  It was De Camp that made Conan big again...even while putting his own stamp on it.

Love/Hate there.


----------



## Ralif Redhammer (Aug 24, 2018)

Hahahah, I should have guessed. Knowing the established Lowkey13 Stance on Paladins, I should have known.



lowkey13 said:


> Everything I say is a True Fact(tm).
> 
> Even the untrue stuff.
> 
> ...


----------



## Dausuul (Aug 24, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> Actually impossible to overrated Tolkien



Not only is it possible, it's done quite regularly. Tolkien is a titan of the fantasy genre, but not the only one... and as titans of the genre go, he's not the best writer by a long shot.

What really gets me about Tolkien is the number of people on these forums who insist that elves'n'dwarves'n'orcs are "staples of the genre" or "universal in fantasy." They are nothing of the kind. They are, in fact, quite unusual in fantasy fiction outside the sub-genre of Tolkien and Tolkien rip-offs. But because D&D happened to be published around the height of the Tolkien craze, the creators (perhaps inevitably) shoehorned it into that sub-genre, and so we're stuck with them forever.


----------



## Reynard (Aug 24, 2018)

Dausuul said:


> .What really gets me about Tolkien is the number of people on these forums who insist that elves'n'dwarves'n'orcs are "staples of the genre" or "universal in fantasy." They are nothing of the kind. They are, in fact, quite unusual in fantasy fiction outside the sub-genre of Tolkien and Tolkien rip-offs. But because D&D happened to be published around the height of the Tolkien craze, the creators (perhaps inevitably) shoehorned it into that sub-genre, and so we're stuck with them forever.




None of those things are about Tolkien or his writing.


----------



## Dausuul (Aug 24, 2018)

Reynard said:


> None of those things are about Tolkien or his writing.



No, but since this is about writers from Appendix N, I consider "impact on D&D and its descendants" to be a legit reason to downvote the guy.

Also, while Tolkien's vision was spectacular (and the reason for his success), his writing was only tolerable.


----------



## Gradine (Aug 24, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 5
Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 16
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 25
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp, L. Sprague 15
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 19
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 15
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 22
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 25
Norton, Andre 23
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 12
St. Clair, Margaret 17
Tolkien, J. R. R. 28
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 18
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 24


----------



## Gradine (Aug 24, 2018)

Dausuul said:


> No, but since this is about writers from Appendix N, I consider "impact on D&D and its descendants" to be a legit reason to downvote the guy.
> 
> Also, while Tolkien's vision was spectacular (and the reason for his success), his writing was only tolerable.




The Hobbit is proof that Tolkein can spin a lively tale when he's trying to. Lord of the Rings is a bit of a slog as far as the writing goes though


----------



## Reynard (Aug 24, 2018)

Dausuul said:


> Also, while Tolkien's vision was spectacular (and the reason for his success), his writing was only tolerable.




This probably isn't really the place for this, but you are objectively and demonstrably wrong. Do not confuse your preferences with qualified criticism and expertise. Many an English Literature PhD has examined Tolkien's work and shown why it holds a place in the modern canon.

You can downvote Tolkien for any reason you want but proclaiming that he's a bad writer says much about your relevant expertise.


----------



## TiwazTyrsfist (Aug 24, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 5
    Bellairs, John 19
    Brackett, Leigh 16
    Brown, Frederic 20
*Burroughs, Edgar Rice 26*
    Carter, Lin 18
    de Camp, L. Sprague 15
    de Camp & Pratt 20
    Dunsany, Lord 19
    Farmer, P. J. 19
    Gardner, Fox 21
    Howard, R.E. 15
    Lanier, Sterling 18
    Leiber, Fritz 22
    Merritt, A. 20
   Moorcock, Michael 25
    Norton, Andre 23
    Offutt, Andrew J. 20
    Pratt, Fletcher 20
   Saberhagen, Fred 12
    St. Clair, Margaret 17

 *Tolkien, J. R. R. 26* - Don't get me wrong, I love the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings, but he is VASTLY over hyped, and I cannot countenance the possibility or this ending with everyone else out and Tolkien with +2753 or some junk.  Tolkien was good, but NOT THAT GOOD.

    Weinbaum, Stanley 16
    Wellman, Manley Wade 18
    Williamson, Jack 18
    Zelazny, Roger 24


----------



## OB1 (Aug 24, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 5-2=3
    Bellairs, John 19
    Brackett, Leigh 16
    Brown, Frederic 20
    Burroughs, Edgar Rice 26
    Carter, Lin 18
    de Camp, L. Sprague 15
    de Camp & Pratt 20
    Dunsany, Lord 19
    Farmer, P. J. 19
    Gardner, Fox 21
    Howard, R.E. 15
    Lanier, Sterling 18
    Leiber, Fritz 22
    Merritt, A. 20
   Moorcock, Michael 25
    Norton, Andre 23
    Offutt, Andrew J. 20
    Pratt, Fletcher 20
   Saberhagen, Fred 12
    St. Clair, Margaret 17+1=18
Tolkien, J. R. R. 26
    Weinbaum, Stanley 16
    Wellman, Manley Wade 18
    Williamson, Jack 18
    Zelazny, Roger 24[/QUOTE]


----------



## Flexor the Mighty! (Aug 24, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 5
Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 16
Brown, Frederic 20
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 26
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp, L. Sprague 15
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 19
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 15 + 1 = 16
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 22
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 25
Norton, Andre 23
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 12
St. Clair, Margaret 17
Tolkien, J. R. R. 26 - 2 = 24
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 18
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 24

My vision for D&D is more Leiber & Howard than JRRT.


----------



## TiwazTyrsfist (Aug 24, 2018)

Reynard said:


> This probably isn't really the place for this, but you are objectively and demonstrably wrong. Do not confuse your preferences with qualified criticism and expertise. Many an English Literature PhD has examined Tolkien's work and shown why it holds a place in the modern canon.
> 
> You can downvote Tolkien for any reason you want but proclaiming that he's a bad writer says much about your relevant expertise.




Writing which is technically proficient, which follows a set of academic rules, or which very closely matches to the vagaries of a particular style, is NOT the same as writing which is GOOD.

Evidence: the millions of English Lit PhDs, English teachers, Literature teachers, and Writing teachers who have not been, are not, and will not ever be, on the New York Times or Amazon Best sellers list.

Literature is art, and just as I will ignore you if you tell me that any Jackson Pollock piece is anything but trash, or that Worhol's soup can is somehow better than Velasquez "Las Meninas", so to if you tell me Ayn Rand's "Fountain Head" is good, or indeed anything other than an abysmal slog, I shall put your opinions directly into the "Ignore" bin.

And if you tell me that I cannot judge the quality of Art or Literature because I do not have a degree in these things, I shall feed you a plate of Horse Excrement, and inform you that it is finer than caviar or Wagyu beef, and that you cannot argue with me since I am a certified Chef with a Culinary degree and you are not SO HOW DARE YOU DISAGREE WITH ME, eat your plate of horse turds.


----------



## lowkey13 (Aug 24, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


----------



## Reynard (Aug 24, 2018)

TiwazTyrsfist said:


> just as I will ignore you if you tell me that any Jackson Pollock piece is anything but trash,




Everything I ever needed to know about your view of the arts. Thank you.


----------



## Flexor the Mighty! (Aug 24, 2018)

JRRT had great stuff in his books, but then you would spend 9 pages on an elven song and 6 pages describing trees. Hyperbole I know.


----------



## Sacrosanct (Aug 24, 2018)

lowkey13 said:


> We should be careful when it comes to stating things like someone else's opinions are "objectively" and "demonstrably" wrong, especially when it comes to literature.




But with video games, then it's perfectly OK!


----------



## Prakriti (Aug 24, 2018)

Adding in OB1's votes and my own

Anderson, Poul 3
Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 16
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 26
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp, L. Sprague 15
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 19
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 16
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 22
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 25
Norton, Andre 23
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 12
St. Clair, Margaret 18
Tolkien, J. R. R. 25
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 18
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 24


----------



## Reynard (Aug 24, 2018)

lowkey13 said:


> We should be careful when it comes to stating things like someone else's opinions are "objectively" and "demonstrably" wrong, especially when it comes to literature.
> 
> For example, both Hemingway and Shakespeare are great writers; however, their style is not the same, and not for everyone. There is no single "objective" and "demonstrable" measure that determines that one style of writing is amazing, and one style of writing is terrible.
> 
> ...



Whether a work of literature is popular or is considered a "good read" is not the metric by which they are measured academically. Again this is the wrong place for this, but a cursory examination of the academic literature on Tolkien should suffice if you are interested in knowing why I say you are wrong in an academic and critical sense. Of course you can't be wrong about your preferences or your subjective opinion on LotR or his other works. But that isn't the same thing, and it is a failure of our culture that people equate the two so readily.


----------



## lowkey13 (Aug 24, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


----------



## Dausuul (Aug 24, 2018)

Reynard said:


> Do not confuse your preferences with qualified criticism and expertise. Many an English Literature PhD has examined Tolkien's work and shown why it holds a place in the modern canon.



And many others have savaged it. Do not confuse the opinions of critics - however credentialed they may be - with objective fact.

When LotR was initially published, scholarly reaction was almost universally dismissive. It was only pressure from his fans--unqualified, un-expert, lacking degrees or credentials of any kind--that got anyone to take him seriously. And even today, the academy is hardly united in its admiration.

So, were the "qualified" people "objectively and demonstrably wrong" when they said Tolkien was trash? Or are they "objectively and demonstrably wrong" now?


----------



## Gradine (Aug 24, 2018)

As someone who holds an advanced degree in Theatre, I find it hilarious that anyone could possibly assert that there is anything close to a unanimous, objective opinion on the quality of anyone's writings within the field of academia. Academics are, much like frequenters of online forums, massive nerds, and one thing the two groups have in common is how much they love to argue.

To say nothing of the fact that academic "canon" consistently shifts throughout time in all fields, let alone any as subjective as art or literature. Positions within the fields of cultural production shift as new generations gain power and their positions begin to take prominence.

PS: The modern high art scene, particularly the one that exists in New York, has always been and will likely remain for a very long time a complete and utter scam ran by con artists. Kudos to Pollock for making bank off it (decidedly less so for, you know, the domestic abuse, in spite of the obvious demons he carried with him to his grave), and I'm sure that his work does resonate with a certain population of people, but I don't know that anyone could his work (or any work) "objectively" great art. Hell, The Mona Lisa was considered one of Da Vinci's lesser works until somebody stole it (because it was so easy to steal, because it was considered on his lesser works).


----------



## Reynard (Aug 24, 2018)

I retract the argument. I am either not communicating what I mean well enough, or I am not comprehending responses well enough. In either case, I apologize if anyone thought I was attacking them or their opinions. As one of those folks with a degree in literature, I was steeped in literary criticism and know there is a difference between how critics and academics view works, but without that context I probably should not have used "objectively". Mea culpa.


----------



## rczarnec (Aug 24, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 3
Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 16
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 26
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp, L. Sprague 15
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 19
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 16
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 22
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 26
Norton, Andre 23
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 12
St. Clair, Margaret 18
Tolkien, J. R. R. 25
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 18
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 24


----------



## Bradley Hindman (Aug 24, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 3
Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 16
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 26
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp, L. Sprague 15
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 19
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 16
Lanier, Sterling 18
*Leiber, Fritz 22 + 1 = 23*
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 26
Norton, Andre 23
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 12
St. Clair, Margaret 18
*Tolkien, J. R. R. 25 - 2 =23*
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 18
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 24


----------



## Yardiff (Aug 24, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 3-2=1
Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 16
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 26
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp, L. Sprague 15+1=16
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 19
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 16
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 26
Norton, Andre 23
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 12
St. Clair, Margaret 18
Tolkien, J. R. R. 23
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 18
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 24


----------



## Lord Mhoram (Aug 24, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 3
Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 16
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 26
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp, L. Sprague 15
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 19
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 14
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz  23
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 26
Norton, Andre 23
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 12
St. Clair, Margaret 18
Tolkien, J. R. R. 23
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 18
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 25


----------



## Yardiff (Aug 24, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 1
Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 16
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 26
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp, L. Sprague 16
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 19
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 14
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz  23
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 26
Norton, Andre 23
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 12
St. Clair, Margaret 18
Tolkien, J. R. R. 23
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 18
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 25



Corrected for same time posts.


----------



## Parmandur (Aug 24, 2018)

Dausuul said:


> Not only is it possible, it's done quite regularly. Tolkien is a titan of the fantasy genre, but not the only one... and as titans of the genre go, he's not the best writer by a long shot.
> 
> What really gets me about Tolkien is the number of people on these forums who insist that elves'n'dwarves'n'orcs are "staples of the genre" or "universal in fantasy." They are nothing of the kind. They are, in fact, quite unusual in fantasy fiction outside the sub-genre of Tolkien and Tolkien rip-offs. But because D&D happened to be published around the height of the Tolkien craze, the creators (perhaps inevitably) shoehorned it into that sub-genre, and so we're stuck with them forever.




All this post demonstrates is the nigh infinite capacity of humanity in the postlapsarian state to underrate Tolkien.


----------



## Parmandur (Aug 24, 2018)

Flexor the Mighty! said:


> JRRT had great stuff in his books, but then you would spend 9 pages on an elven song and 6 pages describing trees. Hyperbole I know.




But those are literally the best parts? Sure, lots of folks can write fights (at which Tolkien was better than average), but it takes talent to describe trees.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Aug 24, 2018)

Flexor the Mighty! said:


> JRRT had great stuff in his books, but then you would spend 9 pages on an elven song and 6 pages describing trees. Hyperbole I know.




That's what made him great, he was writing things he liked, not to shift copies off shelves.

Technically, he wasn't the greatest writer, but then none of the others on this list are either. The likes of Gaiman and Pratchett are far more accomplished, or Poe and Verne, if you limit it to stuff that was published prior to 1979.


----------



## Ed Laprade (Aug 24, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 1
Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 16 - 2 = 14
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 26
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp, L. Sprague 16
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 19
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 14
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 26
Norton, Andre 23 +1 = 24
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 12
St. Clair, Margaret 18
Tolkien, J. R. R. 23
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 18
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 25


----------



## Dioltach (Aug 24, 2018)

_The Lord of the Rings_ was voted the Best Loved Novel in Britain in 2003 after a survey involving three quarters of a million votes. That's a lot of people who thought is was a good book. (I'm not saying it's my favourite book, or that Tolkien is my favourite author on the list - if I bothered to vote, I'd probably upvote Sterling E. Lanier first - but there's no denying that an awful lot of people consider _The Lord of the Rings_ to be a great book for a variety of reasons.


----------



## tglassy (Aug 24, 2018)

The Lord of the Rings IS a great book, for a variety of reasons.  Not least of which is the story itself, the world it is set in and the struggles each of the characters go through. It’s not just the writing that is important. Tolkien made Middle Earth REAL for people. They feel a connection there. It has proven itself timeless. It reaches even people who are not “fantasy” fans. In fact, the only person I’ve personally met who refuses to read/watch the movie does so because it makes him feel superior to not like what other people like. The more popular something is, the less he likes it, because by doing so he can pretend to look down on those who like it. 

Not that I’m accusing everyone who doesn’t like LotR of doing that, but he does.


----------



## lowkey13 (Aug 24, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


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## Sacrosanct (Aug 24, 2018)

Dioltach said:


> _The Lord of the Rings_ was voted the Best Loved Novel in Britain in 2003 after a survey involving three quarters of a million votes. That's a lot of people who thought is was a good book. (I'm not saying it's my favourite book, or that Tolkien is my favourite author on the list - if I bothered to vote, I'd probably upvote Sterling E. Lanier first - but there's no denying that an awful lot of people consider _The Lord of the Rings_ to be a great book for a variety of reasons.




The Jersey Shore had multiple seasons but Firefly was cancelled after one.  Just say'n.

Also, 2003 was right after the films, and we know mob mentality is to vote for what is the most familiar.   It's kind of a self fulfilling circle that continues to spiral.  "We read his stories which made him popular.  He is popular so we read his stories."

Name recognition is a powerful thing. I marketing, we call it Branding.  And it's worth billions alone.


----------



## Dioltach (Aug 24, 2018)

lowkey13 said:


> People suck.




Yes, for instance they say, "I didn't enjoy this book because it didn't meet my expectations/doesn't reflect modern tastes/moves too slowly for my attention span/a variety of other reasons, therefore the opinions of millions of others over several decades must be wrong."


----------



## Parmandur (Aug 24, 2018)

lowkey13 said:


> Well, yeah, but Pride and Prejudice was number 2, and His Dark Materials was number 3.
> 
> Can't trust people. They listen to Coldplay, voted the Nazis into power, and voted Tolkien's LOTR #1, Wuthering Heights #12, and didn't even include Pynchon.
> 
> People suck.




Pynchon, good Lord, speaking of overrated... I'd try reading Saberhagen again before that hack.

Austen is one of the greatest in the English language. My personal top five favorites would be Chaucer, Shakespeare, Milton, Austen and Tolkien. There is no particular correlation either direction between popularity and quality, but persistent popularity, AKA the Test of Time, trends towards quality. Part of what makes the 70's snapshot of Appendix N interesting, to see what has lasted.


----------



## Invisible Stalker (Aug 24, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 1
    Bellairs, John 19
    Brackett, Leigh 16 - 2 = 14
    Brown, Frederic 18
    Burroughs, Edgar Rice 26
    Carter, Lin 16
    de Camp, L. Sprague 16
    de Camp & Pratt 20
    Dunsany, Lord 19
    Farmer, P. J. 19
    Gardner, Fox 21
    Howard, R.E. 14
    Lanier, Sterling 18
    Leiber, Fritz 23
    Merritt, A. 20
    Moorcock, Michael 26
    Norton, Andre 23 +1 = 24
    Offutt, Andrew J. 20
    Pratt, Fletcher 20
    Saberhagen, Fred 12
    St. Clair, Margaret 18
Tolkien, J. R. R. 24
    Weinbaum, Stanley 16
    Wellman, Manley Wade 18
    Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 23


----------



## lowkey13 (Aug 24, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


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## Invisible Stalker (Aug 24, 2018)

Dausuul said:


> Not only is it possible, it's done quite regularly. Tolkien is a titan of the fantasy genre, but not the only one... and as titans of the genre go, he's not the best writer by a long shot.
> 
> What really gets me about Tolkien is the number of people on these forums who insist that elves'n'dwarves'n'orcs are "staples of the genre" or "universal in fantasy." They are nothing of the kind. They are, in fact, quite unusual in fantasy fiction outside the sub-genre of Tolkien and Tolkien rip-offs. But because D&D happened to be published around the height of the Tolkien craze, the creators (perhaps inevitably) shoehorned it into that sub-genre, and so we're stuck with them forever.




I'd go as far to say that because of the Lord of the Rings cartoons of the late 1970s leading me to the books, the only reason I'm even playing D&D is because of Tolkien.

My second choice after him in this entire genre isn't even in the 5E recommendations. It's J K Rowling.


----------



## Invisible Stalker (Aug 24, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> Pynchon, good Lord, speaking of overrated...




Co-signed.

Where's a memory hole when I need one?


----------



## Parmandur (Aug 24, 2018)

lowkey13 said:


> You wash your mouth out with soap!
> 
> 
> 
> ...




A better, though flawed, movie analogy might be to the critically acclaimed popular hit that won 11 Oscars, Return of the King (flawed in that Tolkien is a much better writer than Jackson is a film maker). Honestly, though, all five are highly unique and not like each other, apart from artistic use of the English language.

The role of tradition, of passing on (trade/tradere, to hand over) is as much of an argument for those author's meaningfulness, not against it. For myself, I can compare all of those authors to their contemporaries due to my education, and it is my judgement that they stand over their peers with good reason.


----------



## chrisrtld (Aug 24, 2018)

Anderson, Poul 0
    Bellairs, John 19
    Brackett, Leigh 14
    Brown, Frederic 18
    Burroughs, Edgar Rice 26
    Carter, Lin 16
    de Camp, L. Sprague 16
    de Camp & Pratt 20
    Dunsany, Lord 19
    Farmer, P. J. 19
    Gardner, Fox 21
    Howard, R.E. 14
    Lanier, Sterling 18
    Leiber, Fritz 23
    Merritt, A. 20
    Moorcock, Michael 26
    Norton, Andre 24
    Offutt, Andrew J. 20
    Pratt, Fletcher 20
    Saberhagen, Fred 12
    St. Clair, Margaret 18
Tolkien, J. R. R. 25
    Weinbaum, Stanley 16
    Wellman, Manley Wade 18
    Williamson, Jack 18
    Zelazny, Roger 23


----------



## CleverNickName (Aug 24, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 14  
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 26 
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp, L. Sprague 16
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 19
Gardner, Fox 21
*Howard, R.E. 14-2=12*
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 26
Norton, Andre 24
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 12
St. Clair, Margaret 18
*Tolkien, J. R. R. 25+1=26*
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 18
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 23


----------



## lowkey13 (Aug 24, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


----------



## Gradine (Aug 24, 2018)

lowkey13 said:


> and CRANK 2: HIGH VOLTAGE!*"
> 
> *He was dead, but he got better****.




In case anyone was wondering, this is a real thing that happened, not lowkey just yanking your chain as per his particular idiom




****for certain qualities of "better"


----------



## lowkey13 (Aug 24, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


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## Parmandur (Aug 25, 2018)

lowkey13 said:


> I went to see that movie 15 years ago.
> 
> I AM STILL WAITING FOR IT TO END.




Yes, exactly, Jackson wasn'y quite up to the task, though they were still good movies. Not as good as the books, that probably would have required the Kibrick project to have taken off.


----------



## TiwazTyrsfist (Aug 25, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> But those are literally the best parts? Sure, lots of folks can write fights (at which Tolkien was better than average), but it takes talent to describe trees.




I for one am still upset that Tom Bombadil didn't make it even into the extended cut of the movies.


----------



## tglassy (Aug 25, 2018)

Yes. Jackson was so not up to the task that they asked him to mak the a second trilogy and they’ve won 21 oscars all together. 

I love it when people bash successful artists, claiming their works to be subpar. Like Stephanie Meyer and Twilight. It has been 13 years and people still talk about that book. Sure, it sucked, but something about the writing made me want to finish it. She made so much money off those books it is unreal. If ONLY I could write something that bad. 

And then we have people saying Tolkien and Jackson were overrated. I tell you what, if that’s mediocrity, then I hope I become half as mediocre as them. Then I’d ONLY be a multimillionaire.


----------



## Parmandur (Aug 25, 2018)

tglassy said:


> Yes. Jackson was so not up to the task that they asked him to mak the a second trilogy and they’ve won 21 oscars all together.
> 
> I love it when people bash successful artists, claiming their works to be subpar. Like Stephanie Meyer and Twilight. It has been 13 years and people still talk about that book. Sure, it sucked, but something about the writing made me want to finish it. She made so much money off those books it is unreal. If ONLY I could write something that bad.
> 
> And then we have people saying Tolkien and Jackson were overrated. I tell you what, if that’s mediocrity, then I hope I become half as mediocre as them. Then I’d ONLY be a multimillionaire.




I said Jackson is not as good a film maker as Tolkien was a writer: there's a lot of room below Tolkien level greatness. It's like saying Franco Zeffirelli wasn't as good a film maker as Shakespeare was a writer. Doesn't mean Jackson and Zeffirelli aren't good, but they aren't Buñuel or Kubrick good.


----------



## Dausuul (Aug 25, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 14 
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 26 
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp, L. Sprague 16
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 19
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 12
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 24
Norton, Andre 24
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 12
St. Clair, Margaret 18
Tolkien, J. R. R. 26
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 18
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 24


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Aug 25, 2018)

lowkey13 said:


> Well, yeah, but Pride and Prejudice was number 2, and His Dark Materials was number 3.




Seem like pretty good choices to me, although Austin probably should be number one, for writing romcoms that can be enjoyed by hardcore fantasy buffs.

Austin is certainly better than any of the names on the list, and Pullman better than most of them.


The list does tell you this: Dungeons & Dragons was invented by people who read a lot more magazines than they did novels.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Aug 25, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 14 
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 26 
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp, L. Sprague 16
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 19
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 12
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 24
Norton, Andre 22
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 12
St. Clair, Margaret 18
Tolkien, J. R. R. 27
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 18
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 24


----------



## Yardiff (Aug 25, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 14 
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 26 
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp, L. Sprague 16
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 19
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 12+1=13
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 24
Norton, Andre 22
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 12
St. Clair, Margaret 18
Tolkien, J. R. R. 27-2=25
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 18
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 24


----------



## Tallifer (Aug 25, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 14 
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 26 
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp, L. Sprague 16
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 19
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 13
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 24
Norton, Andre 22
Offutt, Andrew J. 20
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 12
St. Clair, Margaret 18
Tolkien, J. R. R. 26
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 18
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 22


----------



## lowkey13 (Aug 25, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


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## OB1 (Aug 25, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 14 
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 26 
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp, L. Sprague 16
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 19
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 13
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 24
Norton, Andre 22
Offutt, Andrew J. 18
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 12
St. Clair, Margaret 19
Tolkien, J. R. R. 24
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 18
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 23


----------



## rczarnec (Aug 25, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 14 
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 26 
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp, L. Sprague 16
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 19
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 13
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 25
Norton, Andre 22
Offutt, Andrew J. 18
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 12
St. Clair, Margaret 19
Tolkien, J. R. R. 24
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 18
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 23


----------



## Reynard (Aug 25, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 14+1=15 Brackett wrote some great pulp.
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 26 
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp, L. Sprague 16-2=14 He MUST goe before Howard
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 19
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 13
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 24
Norton, Andre 22
Offutt, Andrew J. 18
Pratt, Fletcher 20
Saberhagen, Fred 12
St. Clair, Margaret 19
Tolkien, J. R. R. 24
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 18
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 23


----------



## Parmandur (Aug 25, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 15 
Brackett wrote some great pulp.
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 26 
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp, L. Sprague 14
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 19
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 13
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 24
Norton, Andre 22
Offutt, Andrew J. 18
Pratt, Fletcher 20
 Saberhagen, Fred 10
St. Clair, Margaret 19
 Tolkien, J. R. R. 25
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 18
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 23


----------



## Prakriti (Aug 25, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 15
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 26
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp, L. Sprague 14
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 19
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 13
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 24
Norton, Andre 22
Offutt, Andrew J. 18
Pratt, Fletcher 18
Saberhagen, Fred 10
St. Clair, Margaret 19
Tolkien, J. R. R. 26
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 18
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 23


----------



## Ed Laprade (Aug 25, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 15
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 26
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp, L. Sprague 14
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 19
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 13
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 24
Norton, Andre 22 +1 = 23
Offutt, Andrew J. 18
Pratt, Fletcher 18
Saberhagen, Fred 10
St. Clair, Margaret 19
Tolkien, J. R. R. 26 -2 = 24
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 18
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 23


----------



## tglassy (Aug 25, 2018)

Ed Laprade said:


> Bellairs, John 19
> Brackett, Leigh 15
> Brown, Frederic 18
> Burroughs, Edgar Rice 26
> ...


----------



## dave2008 (Aug 25, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 15
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 26
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp, L. Sprague 12
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 19
Farmer, P. J. 19
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 14
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 22
Norton, Andre 23
Offutt, Andrew J. 18
Pratt, Fletcher 18
Saberhagen, Fred 10
St. Clair, Margaret 19
Tolkien, J. R. R. 25
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 18
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 23


----------



## Invisible Stalker (Aug 26, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 15
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 26
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp, L. Sprague 12
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 20
Farmer, P. J. 19
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 14
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 22
Norton, Andre 23
Offutt, Andrew J. 18
Pratt, Fletcher 18
Saberhagen, Fred 8
St. Clair, Margaret 19
Tolkien, J. R. R. 25
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 18
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 23


----------



## Maxperson (Aug 26, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 15
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 26
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp, L. Sprague 12
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 20
Farmer, P. J. 19
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 14
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 22
Norton, Andre 23
Offutt, Andrew J. 18
Pratt, Fletcher 18
Saberhagen, Fred 6
St. Clair, Margaret 19
Tolkien, J. R. R. 26
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 18
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 23


----------



## chrisrtld (Aug 26, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 15
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 26
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp, L. Sprague 12
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 20
Farmer, P. J. 19
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 14
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 22
Norton, Andre 23
Offutt, Andrew J. 18
Pratt, Fletcher 18
Saberhagen, Fred 4
St. Clair, Margaret 19
Tolkien, J. R. R. 27
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 18
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 23


----------



## Tyler Do'Urden (Aug 26, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 15
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 26
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp, L. Sprague 12
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 20
Farmer, P. J. 19
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 14
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 22
Norton, Andre 21
Offutt, Andrew J. 18
Pratt, Fletcher 18
Saberhagen, Fred 4
St. Clair, Margaret 19
Tolkien, J. R. R. 28
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 18
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 23


----------



## Dausuul (Aug 26, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 15
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 26
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp, L. Sprague 12
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 20
Farmer, P. J. 19
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 14
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 22
Norton, Andre 21
Offutt, Andrew J. 18
Pratt, Fletcher 18
Saberhagen, Fred 4
St. Clair, Margaret 19
Tolkien, J. R. R. 26
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 18
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 24


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Aug 26, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 15
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 26
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp, L. Sprague 12
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 20
Farmer, P. J. 17 - I had completely overlooked that this nut-job was on the list
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 14
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 22
Norton, Andre 21
Offutt, Andrew J. 18
Pratt, Fletcher 18
Saberhagen, Fred 4
St. Clair, Margaret 19
Tolkien, J. R. R. 27 - I would spread it around more if it wasn't for the haters
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 18
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 24


----------



## Parmandur (Aug 26, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 15
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 26
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp, L. Sprague 12
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 20
Farmer, P. J. 17
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 14
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 22
Norton, Andre 21
Offutt, Andrew J. 18
Pratt, Fletcher 18
 Saberhagen, Fred 2
St. Clair, Margaret 19
Tolkien, J. R. R. 28
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 18
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 24


----------



## Harzel (Aug 26, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 15
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 26
Carter, Lin 17
de Camp, L. Sprague 12
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 20
Farmer, P. J. 15
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 14
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 22
Norton, Andre 21
Offutt, Andrew J. 18
Pratt, Fletcher 18
Saberhagen, Fred 4
St. Clair, Margaret 19
Tolkien, J. R. R. 27
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 18
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 24


----------



## Tallifer (Aug 26, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 15
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 26
Carter, Lin 17
de Camp, L. Sprague 12
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 20
Farmer, P. J. 15
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 14
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 22
Norton, Andre 21
Offutt, Andrew J. 18
Pratt, Fletcher 18
Saberhagen, Fred 2
St. Clair, Margaret 19
Tolkien, J. R. R. 28
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 18
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 24

Corrected for Parmandur's missed votes


----------



## Tallifer (Aug 26, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 15
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 26
Carter, Lin 17
de Camp, L. Sprague 12
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 20
Farmer, P. J. 15
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 14
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 22
Norton, Andre 21
Offutt, Andrew J. 18
Pratt, Fletcher 18
Saberhagen, Fred 2
St. Clair, Margaret 19
Tolkien, J. R. R. 29
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 18
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 22

And my own votes now.


----------



## lowkey13 (Aug 26, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


----------



## tglassy (Aug 26, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 15
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 24
Carter, Lin 17
de Camp, L. Sprague 12
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 20
Farmer, P. J. 15
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 14
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 22
Norton, Andre 21
Offutt, Andrew J. 18
Pratt, Fletcher 18
Saberhagen, Fred 2
St. Clair, Margaret 19
Tolkien, J. R. R. 28
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 18
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 23


----------



## Bradley Hindman (Aug 26, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 15
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 24
Carter, Lin 17
de Camp, L. Sprague 12
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 20
Farmer, P. J. 15
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 14
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 22
*Norton, Andre 21 + 1 = 22*
Offutt, Andrew J. 18
Pratt, Fletcher 18
Saberhagen, Fred 2
St. Clair, Margaret 19
*Tolkien, J. R. R. 28 - 2 = 26*
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 18
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 23


----------



## GreyLord (Aug 26, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 15
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 24
Carter, Lin 17
[COLOR="#ffoo00"]de Camp, L. Sprague 10[/COLOR]
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 20
Farmer, P. J. 15
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 15
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 22
Norton, Andre 22
Offutt, Andrew J. 18
Pratt, Fletcher 18
Saberhagen, Fred 2
St. Clair, Margaret 19
Tolkien, J. R. R. 26
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 18
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 23


----------



## Reynard (Aug 26, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 15
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 24
Carter, Lin 17
de Camp, L. Sprague 10-2=8
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 20
Farmer, P. J. 15
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 15+1=16
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 22
Norton, Andre 22
Offutt, Andrew J. 18
Pratt, Fletcher 18
Saberhagen, Fred 2
St. Clair, Margaret 19
Tolkien, J. R. R. 26
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 18
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 23


----------



## rczarnec (Aug 26, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 15
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 24
Carter, Lin 17
de Camp, L. Sprague 10
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 20
Farmer, P. J. 13
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 15
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 22
Norton, Andre 22
Offutt, Andrew J. 18
Pratt, Fletcher 18
Saberhagen, Fred 3
St. Clair, Margaret 19
Tolkien, J. R. R. 26
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 18
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 23


----------



## Ibrandul (Aug 26, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 15
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 24
Carter, Lin 17
de Camp, L. Sprague 8
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 20
Farmer, P. J. 13
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 16
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 23
Norton, Andre 22
Offutt, Andrew J. 18
Pratt, Fletcher 18
Saberhagen, Fred 3
St. Clair, Margaret 19
Tolkien, J. R. R. 26
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 23

(Note: the previous two posters missed each other's contributions, so I accounted for both of them in this post)


----------



## OB1 (Aug 26, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 15
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 24
Carter, Lin 17
de Camp, L. Sprague 8
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 20
Farmer, P. J. 11
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 16
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 23
Norton, Andre 22
Offutt, Andrew J. 18
Pratt, Fletcher 18
Saberhagen, Fred 3
St. Clair, Margaret 20
Tolkien, J. R. R. 26
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 23


----------



## SkidAce (Aug 26, 2018)

This is fascinating.  People seem to be downvoting names they recognize, and the obscure ones hang out untouched.

Albeit for now.


----------



## Prakriti (Aug 26, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 15
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 24
Carter, Lin 17
de Camp, L. Sprague 8
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 20
Farmer, P. J. 11
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 16
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 21
Norton, Andre 22
Offutt, Andrew J. 18
Pratt, Fletcher 18
Saberhagen, Fred 3
St. Clair, Margaret 20
Tolkien, J. R. R. 27
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 23


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Aug 26, 2018)

SkidAce said:


> This is fascinating.  People seem to be downvoting names they recognize, and the obscure ones hang out untouched.
> 
> Albeit for now.




Well, for all I know Manley Wellman might be great!

(I very much doubt it though).


----------



## lowkey13 (Aug 26, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


----------



## Yardiff (Aug 26, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 15
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 24+1=25
Carter, Lin 17
de Camp, L. Sprague 8
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 20
Farmer, P. J. 11
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 16
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 21
Norton, Andre 22
Offutt, Andrew J. 18
Pratt, Fletcher 18
Saberhagen, Fred 3
St. Clair, Margaret 20
Tolkien, J. R. R. 27-2=25
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 23


----------



## Dausuul (Aug 26, 2018)

SkidAce said:


> This is fascinating.  People seem to be downvoting names they recognize, and the obscure ones hang out untouched.
> 
> Albeit for now.




That tends to be how these threads go. People have strong opinions on the big names, so it starts out with a clash of the titans. Those with substantial haterdoms go down fast, while those who are more widely liked survive. Then there's a period of clearing out the chaff--that's when all those obscure names suddenly plunge from "untouched" to "dead." Finally, the last few big names duke it out for the crown.


----------



## Lord Mhoram (Aug 26, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 15
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 25
Carter, Lin 17
de Camp, L. Sprague 8
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 20
Farmer, P. J. 11
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 14
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 21
Norton, Andre 23
Offutt, Andrew J. 18
Pratt, Fletcher 18
Saberhagen, Fred 3
St. Clair, Margaret 20
Tolkien, J. R. R. 25
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 23


----------



## Ed Laprade (Aug 26, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 15
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 25
Carter, Lin 17
de Camp, L. Sprague 8
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 20
Farmer, P. J. 11
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 14
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 21
Norton, Andre 23 +1 = 24
Offutt, Andrew J. 18
Pratt, Fletcher 18
Saberhagen, Fred 3
St. Clair, Margaret 20
Tolkien, J. R. R. 25 - 2 = 23
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 23


----------



## chrisrtld (Aug 26, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 15
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 25
Carter, Lin 17
de Camp, L. Sprague 8
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 20
Farmer, P. J. 11
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 14
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 21
Norton, Andre 24
Offutt, Andrew J. 18
Pratt, Fletcher 18
Saberhagen, Fred 1
St. Clair, Margaret 20
Tolkien, J. R. R. 24
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 23


----------



## Invisible Stalker (Aug 27, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 15
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 25
Carter, Lin 17
de Camp, L. Sprague 8
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 20
Farmer, P. J. 9
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 14
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 21
Norton, Andre 24
Offutt, Andrew J. 18
Pratt, Fletcher 18
Saberhagen, Fred 1
St. Clair, Margaret 20
Tolkien, J. R. R. 25
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 23


----------



## StormbringerAUS (Aug 27, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 15
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 25
Carter, Lin 17
de Camp, L. Sprague 8
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 20
Farmer, P. J. 9
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 14
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 21 + 1 = 22
Norton, Andre 24 - 2 = 22
Offutt, Andrew J. 18
Pratt, Fletcher 18
Saberhagen, Fred 1
St. Clair, Margaret 20
Tolkien, J. R. R. 25
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 23


----------



## Tyler Do'Urden (Aug 27, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 15
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 25
Carter, Lin 17
de Camp, L. Sprague 8
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 20
Farmer, P. J. 9
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 14
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 22
Norton, Andre 20
Offutt, Andrew J. 18
Pratt, Fletcher 18
Saberhagen, Fred 1
St. Clair, Margaret 20
Tolkien, J. R. R. 26
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 23


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Aug 27, 2018)

I have been playing D&D since the early 80's and it is sad that I still have never read several of these authors, so I cannot vote up or down on any of those. Of the ones I have read and enjoyed, or tried to read and could not get through, it is a tough choice. I discovered several of these authors a few years before I discovered D&D. It was reading Tolkien that got me into gaming originally, but I am going to upvote the one author on this list that I got to meet in person, and whose Amber series is one of the best ever. My downvote is for one who I could never get into and was a struggle to read at all.


Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 15
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 25
Carter, Lin 17
de Camp, L. Sprague 8
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 20
Farmer, P. J. 9
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 14
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 22-2=20
Norton, Andre 20
Offutt, Andrew J. 18
Pratt, Fletcher 18
Saberhagen, Fred 1
St. Clair, Margaret 20
Tolkien, J. R. R. 26
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 23+1=24


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Aug 27, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 15
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 25
Carter, Lin 17
de Camp, L. Sprague 8
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 20
Farmer, P. J. 7
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 14
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 20
Norton, Andre 20
Offutt, Andrew J. 18
Pratt, Fletcher 18
Saberhagen, Fred 1
St. Clair, Margaret 20
Tolkien, J. R. R. 27
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 24


----------



## CleverNickName (Aug 27, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 15
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 25
Carter, Lin 17
de Camp, L. Sprague 8 - 2 = 6
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 20
Farmer, P. J. 7
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 14
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 20
Norton, Andre 20
Offutt, Andrew J. 18
Pratt, Fletcher 18
Saberhagen, Fred 1
St. Clair, Margaret 20
Tolkien, J. R. R. 27 + 1 = 28
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 24


----------



## Tallifer (Aug 27, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 15
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 25
Carter, Lin 17
de Camp, L. Sprague 6
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 20
Farmer, P. J. 7
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 14
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 20
Norton, Andre 20
Offutt, Andrew J. 18
Pratt, Fletcher 18
Saberhagen, Fred 1
St. Clair, Margaret 20
Tolkien, J. R. R. 29
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 22


----------



## lowkey13 (Aug 27, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


----------



## lowkey13 (Aug 27, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


----------



## rczarnec (Aug 27, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 15
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 25
Carter, Lin 17
de Camp, L. Sprague 6
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 20
Farmer, P. J. 5
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 14
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 21
Norton, Andre 20
Offutt, Andrew J. 18
Pratt, Fletcher 18
Saberhagen, Fred 1
St. Clair, Margaret 20
Tolkien, J. R. R. 27
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 23


----------



## Dausuul (Aug 27, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 15
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 25
Carter, Lin 17
de Camp, L. Sprague 6
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 20
Farmer, P. J. 5
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 14
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 21
Norton, Andre 20
Offutt, Andrew J. 18
Pratt, Fletcher 18
Saberhagen, Fred 1
St. Clair, Margaret 20
Tolkien, J. R. R. 25
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 24


----------



## tglassy (Aug 27, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 15
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 17
de Camp, L. Sprague 6
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 20
Farmer, P. J. 5
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 14
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 21
Norton, Andre 20
Offutt, Andrew J. 18
Pratt, Fletcher 18
Saberhagen, Fred 1
St. Clair, Margaret 20
Tolkien, J. R. R. 26
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 24


----------



## Parmandur (Aug 27, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 15
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 17
de Camp, L. Sprague 6
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 20
Farmer, P. J. 3
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 14
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 21
Norton, Andre 20
Offutt, Andrew J. 18
Pratt, Fletcher 18
Saberhagen, Fred 1
St. Clair, Margaret 20
Tolkien, J. R. R. 27 - easily the most underrated author on this list
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 24


----------



## lowkey13 (Aug 27, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


----------



## Gradine (Aug 27, 2018)

Dausuul said:


> That tends to be how these threads go. People have strong opinions on the big names, so it starts out with a clash of the titans. Those with substantial haterdoms go down fast, while those who are more widely liked survive. Then there's a period of clearing out the chaff--that's when all those obscure names suddenly plunge from "untouched" to "dead." Finally, the last few big names duke it out for the crown. *only Birthright, Blackmoor and Lankhmar are left, and everyone is left scratching their heads.*




I fixed that for you.


----------



## Gradine (Aug 27, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 15
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 17
de Camp, L. Sprague 6
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 20
Farmer, P. J. 4 - Had to look this guy up. His stuff sounds interesting, if obviously not for everyone, and I'll throw anyone a bone for bringing postmodernism into genre literature. He's obviously a lost cause but at least he can get one (more) upvote before he sails off into the weirdly sexually charged sunset.
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 12 - His legacy is undeniable, and Conan is a great character, it's just a shame he inhabits such horrifically racist and sexist stories, and I worry that Howard's greatest sins are continuing to influence the worst corners of gaming culture, particularly within the OSR, which doesn't deserve to be saddled with those unfortunate implications
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 21
Norton, Andre 20
Offutt, Andrew J. 18
Pratt, Fletcher 18
Saberhagen, Fred 1
St. Clair, Margaret 20
Tolkien, J. R. R. 27 - "easily the most underrated author on this list" I was going to make a "whoa pass me the oven mitts this take is TOO HOT" joke but lowkey beat me to the punch
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 24


----------



## JonnyP71 (Aug 27, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 15
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 17
de Camp, L. Sprague 4
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 20
Farmer, P. J. 4 
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 12 
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 24
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 21
Norton, Andre 20
Offutt, Andrew J. 18
Pratt, Fletcher 18
Saberhagen, Fred 1
St. Clair, Margaret 20
Tolkien, J. R. R. 27 
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 24


----------



## Gradine (Aug 27, 2018)

lowkey13 said:


> .... that guy? Underrated? What, you want his name carved on the moon?


----------



## Bradley Hindman (Aug 27, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 15
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 17
de Camp, L. Sprague 4
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 20
Farmer, P. J. 4 
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 12 
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 24
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 21
Norton, Andre 20
Offutt, Andrew J. 18
Pratt, Fletcher 18
Saberhagen, Fred 1
St. Clair, Margaret 20
*Tolkien, J. R. R. 27 - 2 = 25 *
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
*Zelazny, Roger 24 + 1 = 25*

Since August Derleth was canned, I don't have a whole lotta hate for any of these. So, now its a matter of degree.


----------



## Yardiff (Aug 27, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 15
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 17
de Camp, L. Sprague 4+1=5
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 20
Farmer, P. J. 4 
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 12 
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 24
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 21
Norton, Andre 20
Offutt, Andrew J. 18
Pratt, Fletcher 18
Saberhagen, Fred 1
St. Clair, Margaret 20
Tolkien, J. R. R. 25-2=23
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 25


----------



## Prakriti (Aug 27, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 15
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 17
de Camp, L. Sprague 5
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 20
Farmer, P. J. 4
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 12
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 24
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 21
Norton, Andre 20
Offutt, Andrew J. 18
Pratt, Fletcher 18
Saberhagen, Fred 1
St. Clair, Margaret 20
Tolkien, J. R. R. 24
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 23


----------



## Parmandur (Aug 27, 2018)

lowkey13 said:


> Woah.
> 
> I thought I had some HAWT TAEKS.
> 
> ...



We'll, that's all a good start, certainly. I like where your head is at with the Moon writing. I could have said something truly ridiculous like "Tolkien is overrated," but that's simply absurd.

Now, we say a given artist is "overrated" or "underrated" based on the ratio of their critical and public acclaim relative to the merit of their work. Certain artists, like Tolkien or Beethoven, cannot be "overrated," as their acclaim can never exceed the value of their work. The fact that we are discussing this topic is itself adequate demonstration that Tolkien is underrated.


----------



## TiwazTyrsfist (Aug 27, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 15
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 17
de Camp, L. Sprague 5
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 20
Farmer, P. J. 4
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 12
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 24
Merritt, A. 20
*Moorcock, Michael 22*
Norton, Andre 20
Offutt, Andrew J. 18
Pratt, Fletcher 18
Saberhagen, Fred 1
St. Clair, Margaret 20
*Tolkien, J. R. R. 22*
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 23


----------



## OB1 (Aug 27, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 15
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 17
de Camp, L. Sprague 5
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 20
Farmer, P. J. 4
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 12
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 24
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 22
Norton, Andre 20
Offutt, Andrew J. 18
Pratt, Fletcher 18
Saberhagen, Fred 1-2=00P
St. Clair, Margaret 20+1=21
Tolkien, J. R. R. 22
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 23


----------



## Lord Mhoram (Aug 27, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 15
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 17
de Camp, L. Sprague 5
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 20
Farmer, P. J. 4
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 10
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 24
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 22
Norton, Andre 20
Offutt, Andrew J. 18
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
Tolkien, J. R. R. 22
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 24


----------



## chrisrtld (Aug 27, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 15
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 17
de Camp, L. Sprague 3
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 20
Farmer, P. J. 4
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 10
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 24
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 22
Norton, Andre 20
Offutt, Andrew J. 18
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
Tolkien, J. R. R. 23
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 24


----------



## Reynard (Aug 27, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 15
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 17
de Camp, L. Sprague 3-2=1
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 20
Farmer, P. J. 4
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 10+1=11
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 24
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 22
Norton, Andre 20
Offutt, Andrew J. 18
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
Tolkien, J. R. R. 23
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 24


----------



## Invisible Stalker (Aug 27, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 15
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 17
de Camp, L. Sprague 1
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 20
Farmer, P. J. 4
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 11
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 24
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 20
Norton, Andre 20
Offutt, Andrew J. 18
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
Tolkien, J. R. R. 24
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 24


----------



## Sacrosanct (Aug 27, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 15
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 17
de Camp, L. Sprague 1
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 20
Farmer, P. J. 4
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 11
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 25
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 20
Norton, Andre 20
Offutt, Andrew J. 18
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
Tolkien, J. R. R. 22
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 24


----------



## CleverNickName (Aug 28, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 15
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 17
*de Camp, L. Sprague 1-2=-1* DEAD.  I can't believe I have to downvote this guy _twice_
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 20
Farmer, P. J. 4
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 11
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 25
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 20
Norton, Andre 20
Offutt, Andrew J. 18
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
*Tolkien, J. R. R. 22+1=23*, obviously
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 24


----------



## StormbringerAUS (Aug 28, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 15 - 2 = 13
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 17
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 20
Farmer, P. J. 4
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 11
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 25
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 20
Norton, Andre 20
Offutt, Andrew J. 18
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
*Tolkien, J. R. R. 23+1=24*, obviously
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 24


----------



## tglassy (Aug 28, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 13
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 17
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 20
Farmer, P. J. 2
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 11
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 25
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 20
Norton, Andre 20
Offutt, Andrew J. 18
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
Tolkien, J. R. R. 25
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 24


----------



## Dausuul (Aug 28, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 13
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 17
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 20
Farmer, P. J. 2
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 11
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 20
Norton, Andre 20
Offutt, Andrew J. 18
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
Tolkien, J. R. R. 25
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 25


----------



## Maxperson (Aug 28, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 11
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 17
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 20
Farmer, P. J. 2
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 11
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 24
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 20
Norton, Andre 20
Offutt, Andrew J. 18
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
Tolkien, J. R. R. 25
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 25


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Aug 28, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 13
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 17
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 20
Farmer, P. J. 0- dead, and don't come back!
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 11
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 20
Norton, Andre 20
Offutt, Andrew J. 18
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
Tolkien, J. R. R. 26
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 25


----------



## lowkey13 (Aug 28, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


----------



## Maxperson (Aug 28, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 11
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 17
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 20
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 11
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 25
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 20
Norton, Andre 20
Offutt, Andrew J. 18
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
Tolkien, J. R. R. 24
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 25


Correcting for the two posts at the same time when I posted.


----------



## Tallifer (Aug 28, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 11
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 17
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 20
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 11
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 25
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 20
Norton, Andre 20
Offutt, Andrew J. 18
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
Tolkien, J. R. R. 25
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 23


----------



## Maxperson (Aug 28, 2018)

That's it!  I only correct once.  Your turn [MENTION=84661]Tallifer[/MENTION]!


----------



## OB1 (Aug 28, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 12
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 17
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 20
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 9
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 25
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 20
Norton, Andre 20
Offutt, Andrew J. 18
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
Tolkien, J. R. R. 25
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 23


----------



## Parmandur (Aug 28, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 12
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 17
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 20
Gardner, Fox 21
Howard, R.E. 9
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 25
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 18
Norton, Andre 20
Offutt, Andrew J. 18
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
Tolkien, J. R. R. 26
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 23


----------



## Tyler Do'Urden (Aug 28, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 12
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 17
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 20
Gardner, Fox 19
Howard, R.E. 9
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 25
Merritt, A. 20
Moorcock, Michael 18
Norton, Andre 20
Offutt, Andrew J. 18
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
Tolkien, J. R. R. 27
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 23


----------



## werecorpse (Aug 28, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 12
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 17
de Camp & Pratt 20
Dunsany, Lord 20
Gardner, Fox 19
Howard, R.E. 9+1=10
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 25
Merritt, A. 20-2=18
Moorcock, Michael 18
Norton, Andre 20
Offutt, Andrew J. 18
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
Tolkien, J. R. R. 27
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 23


----------



## Ralif Redhammer (Aug 28, 2018)

Gave DeCamp & Pratt a bump, for the Harold Shea stories. They’re fun romps through folklore and literature, and perhaps are the only fantasy series to feature a psychologist as the main character.

For the downvote, went with Andrew J. Offutt. If you’ve read his son’s work, My Father the Pornographer: A Memoir (a really great read, I might add), he was a person that didn’t do right by his family, to put it mildly.

Also, for someone that’s written so dang much, under his name and many aliases, his impact is relatively minimal. I liked his Thieves World tales, but that was about it.

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 12
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 17
de Camp & Pratt 21
Dunsany, Lord 20
Gardner, Fox 19
Howard, R.E. 10
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 25
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 18
Norton, Andre 20
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
Tolkien, J. R. R. 27
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 23


----------



## Gradine (Aug 28, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 12
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 17
de Camp & Pratt 21
Dunsany, Lord 20
Gardner, Fox 19
Howard, R.E. 8
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 25
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 18
Norton, Andre 21
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
Tolkien, J. R. R. 27
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 23


----------



## TiwazTyrsfist (Aug 28, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 12
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 17
de Camp & Pratt 21
Dunsany, Lord 20
Gardner, Fox 19
Howard, R.E. 8
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 25
Merritt, A. 18
*Moorcock, Michael 19*
Norton, Andre 21
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
*Tolkien, J. R. R. 25*
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 23


----------



## Prakriti (Aug 28, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 12
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 17
de Camp & Pratt 21
Dunsany, Lord 20
Gardner, Fox 19
Howard, R.E. 8
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 25
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 17
Norton, Andre 21
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
Tolkien, J. R. R. 26
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 23


----------



## Flexor the Mighty! (Aug 28, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
    Brackett, Leigh 12
    Brown, Frederic 18
    Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
    Carter, Lin 17
    de Camp & Pratt 21
    Dunsany, Lord 20
    Gardner, Fox 19
Howard, R.E. 8 + 1 = 9
    Lanier, Sterling 18
    Leiber, Fritz 25
    Merritt, A. 18
    Moorcock, Michael 17
    Norton, Andre 21
    Offutt, Andrew J. 16
    Pratt, Fletcher 18
    St. Clair, Margaret 21
Tolkien, J. R. R. 26 - 2  = 24
    Weinbaum, Stanley 16
    Wellman, Manley Wade 16
    Williamson, Jack 18
    Zelazny, Roger 23 

 By Crom!


----------



## rczarnec (Aug 28, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 10
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 17
de Camp & Pratt 21
Dunsany, Lord 20
Gardner, Fox 19
Howard, R.E. 9
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 25
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 18
Norton, Andre 21
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
Tolkien, J. R. R. 24
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 23


----------



## Sacrosanct (Aug 28, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 10
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 17
de Camp & Pratt 21
Dunsany, Lord 20
Gardner, Fox 19
Howard, R.E. 9
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 26
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 18
Norton, Andre 21
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
Tolkien, J. R. R. 22
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 23

Tolkien, the most influential, but Leiber, the most fun


----------



## Yardiff (Aug 28, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 10
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 17
de Camp & Pratt 21
Dunsany, Lord 20
Gardner, Fox 19
Howard, R.E. 9+1=10
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 26
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 18
Norton, Andre 21
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
Tolkien, J. R. R. 22-2=20
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 23


----------



## Flexor the Mighty! (Aug 28, 2018)

Sacrosanct said:


> Bellairs, John 19
> Brackett, Leigh 10
> Brown, Frederic 18
> Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
> ...




FRITZ, FRITZ, FRITZ!!!!!


----------



## Bradley Hindman (Aug 28, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 10
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 17
de Camp & Pratt 21
Dunsany, Lord 20
Gardner, Fox 19
Howard, R.E. 10
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 26
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 18
Norton, Andre 21
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
*Tolkien, J. R. R. 20-2=18*
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
*Zelazny, Roger 23 + 1 = 24*


----------



## Ed Laprade (Aug 28, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 10
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 17
de Camp & Pratt 21
Dunsany, Lord 20
Gardner, Fox 19
Howard, R.E. 10
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 26
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 18
Norton, Andre 21 +1 = 22
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
Tolkien, J. R. R. 18 -2 = 16
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 24


----------



## chrisrtld (Aug 28, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 10
Brown, Frederic 18
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 17
*de Camp & Pratt 19*
Dunsany, Lord 20
Gardner, Fox 19
Howard, R.E. 10
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 26
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 18
Norton, Andre 22
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
*Tolkien, J. R. R. 17
*Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 24


----------



## Yardiff (Aug 28, 2018)

So L. Sprague De Camp and Fletcher Pratt are/were on here twice. (de Camp & Pratt).


The Conan book series I loved was from Lancer/Ace books with author's listed as Howard, de Camp, and Carter.


----------



## Blue (Aug 28, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 10
Brown, Frederic 16
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 18 # Read and reread while a kid
de Camp & Pratt 21
Dunsany, Lord 20
Gardner, Fox 19
Howard, R.E. 10
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 26
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 18
Norton, Andre 22
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
Tolkien, J. R. R. 16
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 24


----------



## Flexor the Mighty! (Aug 28, 2018)

I've got a book of Lin Carter's mythos fiction but haven't had time to dig into it.


----------



## Yardiff (Aug 28, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 10
Brown, Frederic 16
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 20
Gardner, Fox 19
Howard, R.E. 10
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 26
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 18
Norton, Andre 22
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
Tolkien, J. R. R. 17
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 24


Post 286 missed post 284's votes.


----------



## lowkey13 (Aug 28, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


----------



## Dausuul (Aug 28, 2018)

Holy cow, that was a lot of firepower directed at Tolkien just now.

It's funny, he's actually in the top tier of authors for me. I'd be fine with him winning in the end. But he isn't my number one choice, and I don't want him running away with the contest, so I've thrown a lot of downvotes at the Professor just to keep him under control.

Might be time to turn my attention to Mr. Leiber for a bit.


----------



## Toledo (Aug 28, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 10
Brown, Frederic 16
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 20
Gardner, Fox 19
Howard, R.E. 10
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 26-2=24
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 18
Norton, Andre 22
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
Tolkien, J. R. R. 17+1=18
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 24


----------



## CleverNickName (Aug 28, 2018)

Dausuul said:


> Holy cow, that was a lot of firepower directed at Tolkien just now.



I'm surprised Tolkien has lasted this long in this contest, honestly.  We all know he's the most influential choice on the list, but...well, some folks have waited _years_ to be given a platform from which to voice their distaste for Tolkien.  A chance to finally argue for the separation of the two, no matter how futile that argument might be.  Some people have already decided that Tolkien must be removed, period.  Maybe so other authors can enjoy the spotlight for a change?  That's not a bad reason...every author on this list is worth a read, in my opinion.

But we all know the score.

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 10
Brown, Frederic 16
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 20
Gardner, Fox 19
*Howard, R.E. 10-2=8*
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 24
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 18
Norton, Andre 22
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
*Tolkien, J. R. R. 18+1=19*
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 24


----------



## Parmandur (Aug 28, 2018)

CleverNickName said:


> I'm surprised Tolkien has lasted this long in this contest, honestly.  We all know he's the most influential choice on the list, but...well, some folks have waited _years_ to be given a platform from which to voice their distaste for Tolkien.  A chance to finally argue for the separation of the two, no matter how futile that argument might be.  Some people have already decided that Tolkien must be removed, period.  Maybe so other authors can enjoy the spotlight for a change?  That's not a bad reason...every author on this list is worth a read, in my opinion.
> 
> But we all know the score.
> 
> ...




Yup, Tolkien is the most underrated author on this worthy list.


----------



## lowkey13 (Aug 28, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


----------



## Sacrosanct (Aug 28, 2018)

CleverNickName said:


> I'm surprised Tolkien has lasted this long in this contest, honestly.  We all know he's the most influential choice on the list, but...well, some folks have waited _years_ to be given a platform from which to voice their distaste for Tolkien.





You seriously think that people have waited years to voice their distaste of Tolkien, and just now, on this thread, finally have their opportunity?  OK then. 

Or...maybe some people just aren't fans of his work.  It's subjective.  This isn't a thread about who as most influential, it's a popularity contest, of who you like most.  I swear to God, between this and the video game contest with Planescape fans, there's a lot of butthurt going around of people not being able to handle other people not sharing their opinions.  Heck, in that thread Paul even had the audacity to call people who didn't like Planescape mentally broken people. 

Chill out dudes.


----------



## Lord Mhoram (Aug 28, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 10
Brown, Frederic 16
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 20
Gardner, Fox 19
Howard, R.E. 6
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 24
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 18
Norton, Andre 23
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
Tolkien, J. R. R. 19
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 24


----------



## Imaro (Aug 28, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 10
Brown, Frederic 16
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 20
Gardner, Fox 19
Howard, R.E. 4
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 24
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 19
Norton, Andre 23
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
Tolkien, J. R. R. 19
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 24


----------



## Dausuul (Aug 29, 2018)

Sacrosanct said:


> You seriously think that people have waited years to voice their distaste of Tolkien, and just now, on this thread, finally have their opportunity?  OK then.
> 
> Or...maybe some people just aren't fans of his work.  It's subjective.  This isn't a thread about who as most influential, it's a popularity contest, of who you like most.



It's not even a popularity contest, exactly. It's more like a popularity Game of Thrones, with everyone pursuing their own agendas, making alliances of convenience, and stabbing each other in the back for any reason or no reason.

I mean, I _am_ a fan of Tolkien's work. He is deservedly one of the giants of the genre. But he's not my top pick from this list, and he looks like the biggest threat--or did until he got dogpiled today--so I've been downvoting him to boost my guy's chances of victory. (And arguing with the people who want to make him out the second coming of Shakespeare, which he ain't.)


----------



## Bradley Hindman (Aug 29, 2018)

Dausuul said:


> I mean, I _am_ a fan of Tolkien's work. He is deservedly one of the giants of the genre. But he's not my top pick from this list, and he looks like the biggest threat--or did until he got dogpiled today--so I've been downvoting him to boost my guy's chances of victory. (And arguing with the people who want to make him out the second coming of Shakespeare, which he ain't.)




I pretty much agree with Dausuul here. Tolkien would make my top ten, but not my top three. However, he's the biggest threat for a runaway, so he's getting downvotes until a bunch of the derivative pikers hit the trash heap (Linwood Carter, I'm eyeing you).


----------



## CleverNickName (Aug 29, 2018)

Sacrosanct said:


> This isn't a thread about who as most influential, it's a popularity contest, of who you like most.



Appendix N is a list of authors that Gygax listed as "most influential," so that's how I've been choosing my votes.  (Otherwise I don't know how I would ever be able to choose between, say, Burroughs and Zelazny.  That's like trying to choose between burritos and pizza.)  I was snarky, sure, but I meant it in jest...I'm not trying to silence or insult anyone.

I stand by what I said:  I'm surprised that Tolkien has lasted this long, having seen how the other similar contests and threads have shaken out.  And if you enjoy reading sci-fi and fantasy, every author on this list is worth your time.


----------



## CleverNickName (Aug 29, 2018)

Bradley Hindman said:


> However, he's the biggest threat for a runaway, so he's getting downvotes until a bunch of the derivative pikers hit the trash heap.



See, I'm trying to send the derivative pikers to the trash heap _first_...


----------



## GreyLord (Aug 29, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 10
Brown, Frederic 14
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 20
Gardner, Fox 19
Howard, R.E. 5
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 24
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 19
Norton, Andre 23
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
Tolkien, J. R. R. 19
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 24

WOW, can't believe how many people hate D&D...err...I mean R.E. Howard the guy who created and invented Conan and promoted the entire Sword and Sorcery Vibe from the 30s and 40s and was later used to bring it back by others....and inspired half the listed writers above to write what they wrote.

Crazy.

Well, we now know people prefer Epic D&D to S&S D&D.  Of course, Tolkien style D&D (he was an influence, but I'd say early D&D was more S&S in playstyle) got bigger in the 80s and probably over half the people who play old school are from that era...sooo...

That should mean Dragonlance is HUGE with this crowd then.

With 3e it tried to bring back the S&S style...I suppose we see how that is liked now as we see what people vote towards Howard.


----------



## Invisible Stalker (Aug 29, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 10
Brown, Frederic 14
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 20
Fox, Gardner 19
Howard, R.E. 5
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 24
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 19
Norton, Andre 21
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
Tolkien, J. R. R. 20
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 24


----------



## hastur_nz (Aug 29, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 10
Brown, Frederic 14
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 20
Fox, Gardner 19
Howard, R.E. 6
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 24
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 19
Norton, Andre 19
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
Tolkien, J. R. R. 20
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 24


----------



## werecorpse (Aug 29, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 10
Brown, Frederic 14-2=12
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 20
Fox, Gardner 19
Howard, R.E. 6
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 24
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 19
Norton, Andre 19
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
Tolkien, J. R. R. 20+1=21
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 24


----------



## StormbringerAUS (Aug 29, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 10
Brown, Frederic 12
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 20
Fox, Gardner 19
Howard, R.E. 6
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 24
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 19
Norton, Andre 19 - 2 = 17
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
Tolkien, J. R. R. 21 + 1 = 22
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 24


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Aug 29, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 10
Brown, Frederic 12
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 20
Fox, Gardner 19
Howard, R.E. 6
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 24
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 19
Norton, Andre 15
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
Tolkien, J. R. R. 23
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 24

It's amazing how things have changed. It used to be that the highbrow literati hated Tolkien. Now he is included in documentaries about the 1st World War poets, and his haters are - different.


----------



## Tallifer (Aug 29, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 10
Brown, Frederic 12
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 20
Fox, Gardner 19
Howard, R.E. 6
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 24
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 19
Norton, Andre 13
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
Tolkien, J. R. R. 24
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 24

It's sad, but as early as the mid 80s I remember meeting university D&D players who had never read Tolkien, but had religiously devoured Dragonlance novels. (That does not mean I am not saddened to see Howard take such a beating, but I have to choose one.)

And then there were the times that roleplayers would vehemently tell me that Le Morte d'Arthur is "not fantasy, because it is not in the fantasy section of the book store."


----------



## tglassy (Aug 29, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 10
Brown, Frederic 12
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 20
Fox, Gardner 19
Howard, R.E. 6
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 24
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 19
Norton, Andre 13
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
Tolkien, J. R. R. 25
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 23


----------



## Maxperson (Aug 29, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 8
Brown, Frederic 12
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 20
Fox, Gardner 19
Howard, R.E. 6
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 25
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 19
Norton, Andre 13
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
Tolkien, J. R. R. 25
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 23


----------



## Dausuul (Aug 29, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 8
Brown, Frederic 12
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 20
Fox, Gardner 19
Howard, R.E. 6
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 25
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 19
Norton, Andre 13
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
Tolkien, J. R. R. 23
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 24

So much for laying off Tolkien. His trolls may not regenerate, but he sure does.


----------



## rczarnec (Aug 29, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 6
Brown, Frederic 12
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 20
Fox, Gardner 19
Howard, R.E. 7
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 25
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 19
Norton, Andre 13
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
Tolkien, J. R. R. 23
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 24


----------



## Bradley Hindman (Aug 29, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 6
Brown, Frederic 12
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 20
Fox, Gardner 19
Howard, R.E. 7
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 25
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 19
*Norton, Andre 13 + 1 = 14*
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
*Tolkien, J. R. R. 23 - 2 = 21*
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 24

Ya gotta light 'im on fire while he's down.


----------



## lowkey13 (Aug 29, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


----------



## Parmandur (Aug 29, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 6
Brown, Frederic 12
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 20
Fox, Gardner 19
Howard, R.E. 8
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 25
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 17
Norton, Andre 14
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
Tolkien, J. R. R.  20
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 24


----------



## Flexor the Mighty! (Aug 29, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 6 - 2 =4
Brown, Frederic 12
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 20
Fox, Gardner 19
Howard, R.E. 8 +1 = 9
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 25
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 17
Norton, Andre 14
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
Tolkien, J. R. R. 20
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 24

I'm stunned at how many of these authors I missed, so I'm hammering authors at random since I can't just pick on JRRT.


----------



## Sacrosanct (Aug 29, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 4
Brown, Frederic 12
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 21  Just read his stuff a few months ago to go back to the OG.  It's weird. 
Fox, Gardner 19
Howard, R.E. 9
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 25
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 19
Norton, Andre 14
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
Tolkien, J. R. R. 17  Now I'm just trolling for the outrage  *
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 24


*I'm really not.  I legitimately found his writing to be drawn out and boring.


----------



## lowkey13 (Aug 29, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


----------



## Sacrosanct (Aug 29, 2018)

lowkey13 said:


> Bellairs, John 19
> Brackett, Leigh 4
> Brown, Frederic 12
> Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
> ...




Tolkien should be 17.  You put him at 19, so I put him at 17. In between us, Flexor tried to sneak in a +1 to him


----------



## lowkey13 (Aug 29, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


----------



## Gradine (Aug 29, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 4
Brown, Frederic 12
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 21
Fox, Gardner 19
Howard, R.E. 7
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 25
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 17
Norton, Andre 15
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
Tolkien, J. R. R. 18
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 24

Yeah, if my introduction to D&D had been 100% Conan-esque S&S, I'm fairly certain I would have been turned off straight away.

All due respect to the legacy of Conan and Gygax and Greyhawk et. al, but the game has grown beyond all that, and for the better, IMNSHO.

PS: Also there are some... less savory aspects of Howard's writing that I'm not inclined to chalk up to as merely "a product of the times", and that sadly influence some of the worst corners of the hobby still.


----------



## Ralif Redhammer (Aug 29, 2018)

Bump to Tolkien and a drop to Leiber. Entirely for The Knight and Knave of Swords. As much as I dig Leiber's prior tales, the conclusion felt like someone had swapped him out with Piers Anthony!

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 4
Brown, Frederic 12
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 21
Fox, Gardner 19
Howard, R.E. 7
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 17
Norton, Andre 15
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
Tolkien, J. R. R. 19
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 24


----------



## Reynard (Aug 29, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 4
Brown, Frederic 12
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 21
Fox, Gardner 19
Howard, R.E. 7+1=8 Howard is the most skilled of the pulp era authors on this list.
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 17
Norton, Andre 15
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
Tolkien, J. R. R. 19
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 24-2=22 He's good but, come on, he's not this good.


----------



## Prakriti (Aug 29, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 4
Brown, Frederic 12
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 21
Fox, Gardner 19
Howard, R.E. 8 
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 15
Norton, Andre 15
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
Tolkien, J. R. R. 20
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 22


----------



## Imaro (Aug 29, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 4
Brown, Frederic 12
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 21
Fox, Gardner 19
Howard, R.E. 6 -IMO Overrated and over emphasized when it comes to S&S in general.
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 16 -Subverted many of the established tropes of S&S increasing it's range and depth.
Norton, Andre 15
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
Tolkien, J. R. R. 20
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 22


----------



## Sacrosanct (Aug 29, 2018)

lowkey13 said:


> If you are only seeing Flexor and me, there is a block/ignore between you and another frequent poster.




I don't typically have people on ignore, and I'm so lovable and conflict free, no one would ever put me on ignore.


----------



## OB1 (Aug 29, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 4
Brown, Frederic 12
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 21
Fox, Gardner 19
Howard, R.E. 6-2=4
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 16
Norton, Andre 15
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
Tolkien, J. R. R. 20+1=21
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 22


----------



## Lord Mhoram (Aug 29, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 4
Brown, Frederic 12
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 21
Fox, Gardner 19
Howard, R.E. 2
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 16
Norton, Andre 16
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
Tolkien, J. R. R. 21
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 22


----------



## Yardiff (Aug 29, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 4
Brown, Frederic 12
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23+1=24
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 21
Fox, Gardner 19
Howard, R.E. 2
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 16
Norton, Andre 16
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
Tolkien, J. R. R. 21-2=19
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 22


----------



## TiwazTyrsfist (Aug 29, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 4
Brown, Frederic 12
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 24
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 21
Fox, Gardner 19
Howard, R.E. 2
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 18
*Moorcock, Michael 17*
Norton, Andre 16
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
*Tolkien, J. R. R. 17*
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 22


----------



## chrisrtld (Aug 29, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 4
Brown, Frederic 12
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 24
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 21
Fox, Gardner 19
Howard, R.E. 2
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 18
*Moorcock, Michael 15*
Norton, Andre 16
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
*Tolkien, J. R. R. 18*
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 22


----------



## CleverNickName (Aug 29, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 4
Brown, Frederic 12
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 24
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 21
Fox, Gardner 19
*Howard, R.E. 2-2=0*
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 15
Norton, Andre 16
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
*Tolkien, J. R. R. 18+1=19* 
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 22


----------



## squibbles (Aug 30, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 4
Brown, Frederic 12
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 24
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 21
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 15+1=16
Norton, Andre 16
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
Tolkien, J. R. R. 19-2=17
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 22


----------



## Invisible Stalker (Aug 30, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 4
Brown, Frederic 12
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 24
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 21
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 14
Norton, Andre 16
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
Tolkien, J. R. R. 18
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 22


----------



## werecorpse (Aug 30, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 4-2=2
Brown, Frederic 12
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 24
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 21
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 18
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 14
Norton, Andre 16
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
Tolkien, J. R. R. 18+1=19
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 22


----------



## Harzel (Aug 30, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 2
Brown, Frederic 12
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 24
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 21
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 16
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 14
Norton, Andre 16
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
Tolkien, J. R. R. 20
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 22


----------



## Dausuul (Aug 30, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 2
Brown, Frederic 12
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 24
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 21
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 16
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 14
Norton, Andre 16
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
Tolkien, J. R. R. 18
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 23


----------



## StormbringerAUS (Aug 30, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 2
Brown, Frederic 12
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 24
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 21
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 16
Leiber, Fritz 23 - 2 = 21
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 14
Norton, Andre 16
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
Tolkien, J. R. R. 18 + 1 = 19
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 23


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Aug 30, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 2
Brown, Frederic 12
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 24
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 21
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 16
Leiber, Fritz 21
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 14
Norton, Andre 14 - out of a bunch of sexist men, this woman is the most sexist
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
Tolkien, J. R. R. 20
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 23


----------



## lowkey13 (Aug 30, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


----------



## Tallifer (Aug 30, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brackett, Leigh 0
Brown, Frederic 12
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 24
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 21
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 16
Leiber, Fritz 22
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 14
Norton, Andre 14
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
Tolkien, J. R. R. 19
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 23


----------



## Maxperson (Aug 30, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brown, Frederic 10
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 24
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 21
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 16
Leiber, Fritz 22
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 14
Norton, Andre 14
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
Tolkien, J. R. R. 20
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 23

Hey!  He's only got two middle initials.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Aug 30, 2018)

I have two middle names!


----------



## OB1 (Aug 30, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brown, Frederic 10
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 24
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 21
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 16
Leiber, Fritz 22
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 14
Norton, Andre 12
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
Tolkien, J. R. R. 21
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 23


----------



## Parmandur (Aug 30, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brown, Frederic 10
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 24
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 21
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 16
Leiber, Fritz 22
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 12
Norton, Andre 12
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
Tolkien, J. R. R. 22
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 23


----------



## werecorpse (Aug 30, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brown, Frederic 10-2=8
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 24
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 21
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 16
Leiber, Fritz 22
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 12
Norton, Andre 12
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
Tolkien, J. R. R. 22+1=23
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 23


----------



## tglassy (Aug 30, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brown, Frederic 8
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 24
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 21
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 16
Leiber, Fritz 22
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 12
Norton, Andre 12
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
Tolkien, J. R. R. 24
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21


If we keep fighting over Tolkien, this is going to take months. I propose a truce. Everyone leaves off Tolkien until there are, say, 5-10 contestants left.  No upvotes or downvotes. This way, those that will be voted out will go faster, speeding up the voting, but Tolkien doesn’t wind up with 50 points because nobody’s down voting him. Watching Tolkien get voted out at number 20 simply because he’s the biggest threat just breaks my heart.


----------



## OB1 (Aug 30, 2018)

tglassy said:


> If we keep fighting over Tolkien, this is going to take months. I propose a truce. Everyone leaves off Tolkien until there are, say, 5-10 contestants left.  No upvotes or downvotes. This way, those that will be voted out will go faster, speeding up the voting, but Tolkien doesn’t wind up with 50 points because nobody’s down voting him. Watching Tolkien get voted out at number 20 simply because he’s the biggest threat just breaks my heart.




Actually, it doesn't make a difference in how long the contest goes.  The system loses the same single point every vote regardless of who is voted for.  As of now, there are 358 points remaining on the board, meaning we are just about half way to determining a winner somewhere between post 681 and 704 (assuming every post is a vote, which, of course, this one isn't).

Edit:  Always forget that if all upvotes are for the same selection it can cut the total votes remaining in half or is otherwise a runaway winner, the above assumes the winner will end with between 2 and 20 points.


----------



## Imaro (Aug 30, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brown, Frederic 10-2=8
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 24
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 21
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 16
Leiber, Fritz 22
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 13
Norton, Andre 12
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 18
St. Clair, Margaret 21
Tolkien, J. R. R. 22
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 23


----------



## Ralif Redhammer (Aug 30, 2018)

Though I'd gladly keep fighting the good fight for Tolkien, I agree to this armistice.

So...upvote for Moorcock, because he's awesome and worked with Hawkwind. Downvote for Fletcher Pratt. His collaborations with DeCamp are far better than his solo efforts.

Bellairs, John 19
Brown, Frederic 8
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 24
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 21
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 16
Leiber, Fritz 22
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 13
Norton, Andre 12
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 16
St. Clair, Margaret 21
Tolkien, J. R. R. 24
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21




tglassy said:


> If we keep fighting over Tolkien, this is going to take months. I propose a truce. Everyone leaves off Tolkien until there are, say, 5-10 contestants left.  No upvotes or downvotes. This way, those that will be voted out will go faster, speeding up the voting, but Tolkien doesn’t wind up with 50 points because nobody’s down voting him. Watching Tolkien get voted out at number 20 simply because he’s the biggest threat just breaks my heart.


----------



## TiwazTyrsfist (Aug 30, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brown, Frederic 8
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 24
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 21
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 16
Leiber, Fritz 22
Merritt, A. 18
*Moorcock, Michael 14*
Norton, Andre 12
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 16
St. Clair, Margaret 21
*Jolkien Rolkien Rolkien Tolkien 22*
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21

Tolkien gets 6 upvotes in a row "Oh let's have a truce".  Nah.  We slap fight this out like nerds.


----------



## Flexor the Mighty! (Aug 30, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brown, Frederic 8
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 24
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 21
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 16
Leiber, Fritz 22 + 1 = 23
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 14
Norton, Andre 12 - 2 = 10
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 16
St. Clair, Margaret 21
Jolkien Rolkien Rolkien Tolkien 22
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21


----------



## Prakriti (Aug 30, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brown, Frederic 8
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 24
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 21
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 16
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 12
Norton, Andre 10
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 16
St. Clair, Margaret 21
Tolkien, JRR 23
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21


----------



## rczarnec (Aug 30, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brown, Frederic 6
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 24
Carter, Lin 18
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 21
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 16
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 13
Norton, Andre 10
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 16
St. Clair, Margaret 21
JRR Tolkien 23
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21


----------



## Bradley Hindman (Aug 30, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brown, Frederic 6
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 24
*Carter, Lin 18 - 2 = 16*
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 21
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 16
Leiber, Fritz 23
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 13
*Norton, Andre 10 + 1 = 11*
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 16
St. Clair, Margaret 21
JRR Tolkien 23
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21


----------



## Bradley Hindman (Aug 30, 2018)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Norton, Andre 14 - out of a bunch of sexist men, this woman is the most sexist




Really, and why do you say this?  (Honest question).


----------



## Sacrosanct (Aug 30, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brown, Frederic 6
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 24
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 21
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 16
Leiber, Fritz 24
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 13
Norton, Andre 11
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 16
St. Clair, Margaret 21
JRR Tolkien 21
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21


----------



## Yardiff (Aug 30, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brown, Frederic 6
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 24
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 21
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 16
Leiber, Fritz 24
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 13+1=14
Norton, Andre 11
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 16
St. Clair, Margaret 21
JRR Tolkien 21-2=19
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21


----------



## Flexor the Mighty! (Aug 30, 2018)

Sacrosanct said:


> Bellairs, John 19
> Brown, Frederic 6
> Burroughs, Edgar Rice 24
> Carter, Lin 16
> ...




Fafhrd would totally whip Aragorn.


----------



## Gradine (Aug 30, 2018)

Bradley Hindman said:


> Really, and why do you say this?  (Honest question).




Some of her earlier works, particularly when she was writing under a male pseudonym, contained a lot of sexist tropes (particular the "evil women dominate males" trope; think the Nic Cage _Wicker Man_ remake, or better yet don't). As she advanced in her career however her female characters and her general treatment of gender in genre fiction became a lot more nuanced and critical.

It's very similar to how Edgar Rice Burroughs treated race over the course of his career.


----------



## Ed Laprade (Aug 30, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brown, Frederic 6
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 24
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 21
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 16
Leiber, Fritz 24
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 14
Norton, Andre 11 +1 = 12
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 16
St. Clair, Margaret 21
JRR Tolkien 19 -2 17
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21


----------



## Lord Mhoram (Aug 30, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brown, Frederic 6
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 24
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 21
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 16
Leiber, Fritz 22
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 14
Norton, Andre 13
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 16
St. Clair, Margaret 21
JRR Tolkien 17
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21


----------



## CleverNickName (Aug 30, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brown, Frederic 6
*Burroughs, Edgar Rice 24-2=22*
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 21
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 16
Leiber, Fritz 22
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 14
Norton, Andre 13
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 16
St. Clair, Margaret 21
*JRR Tolkien 17+1=18*
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21

Tarzan > Hobbit?  I don't think so.


----------



## Ralif Redhammer (Aug 30, 2018)

Heh! Yeah, Tarzan is steeped in all sorts of problematic colonialism, as noted earlier. But to be fair, I believe it’s more for John Carter of Mars than Tarzan that he’s listed. The Barsoom tales, of course being an absolutely massive influence. Not really on D&D (which Tolkien certainly had the greater influence on), I’d say, but other pop culture giants, like Superman and Star Wars.



CleverNickName said:


> Tarzan > Hobbit?  I don't think so.


----------



## Yardiff (Aug 30, 2018)

Burroughs wrote ALOT more then just Tarzan and John Carter.
Tarzan at 24ish books and John Carter at 11ish books were just his biggest series


----------



## CleverNickName (Aug 30, 2018)

Yardiff said:


> Burroughs wrote ALOT more then just Tarzan and John Carter.
> Tarzan at 24ish books and John Carter at 11ish books were just his biggest series



Alright, this is going to sound harsh so let me preface this.  I LIKE BURROUGHS.  I've read nearly everything he has written at some point in my life, and his books were one of the things that my father and I bonded over when I was an awkward pre-teen and we never really knew how to talk to each other.

Now.  Tarzan.

Burroughs wrote more than two dozen books about Tarzan.  And a half-dozen more are spin-offs or variations of that same theme--Jungle Girl, Cave Girl, the Eternal Savage (ouch), and so forth.  He even wrote a Tarzan/Pellucidar crossover (it's _terrible_) called "Tarzan at the Core of the World" or something like that.  The dude was all about Tarzan, for decades.

And there are almost a dozen Barsoom books (the ones featuring John Carter, and almost all of them have titles ending with "...of Mars").  Like Tarzan, there are also derivative works as well: a half-dozen "...of Venus" books and a handful of "Moon" books, but I digress.

Burroughs wrote dozens and dozens of books, but I'd venture a guess that most of them...certainly more than half...are either Tarzan, John Carter, or derivatives thereof. 

But he also wrote the Caspak trilogy, which is my very favorite sci-fi trilogy.  So I can't bring myself to downvote Burroughs lower than Tolkien...but I can't let him be greater either.  The two must be equals!


----------



## chrisrtld (Aug 30, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brown, Frederic 6
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 22
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 21
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 16
Leiber, Fritz 22
Merritt, A. 18
*Moorcock, Michael 12*
Norton, Andre 13
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 16
St. Clair, Margaret 21
*JRR Tolkien 19*
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21


----------



## Invisible Stalker (Aug 30, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brown, Frederic 6
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 22
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 21
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 16
Leiber, Fritz 22
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 12
Norton, Andre 11
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 16
St. Clair, Margaret 21
JRR Tolkien 20
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21


----------



## werecorpse (Aug 30, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brown, Frederic 6-2=4
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 22
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 21
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 16
Leiber, Fritz 22
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 12
Norton, Andre 11
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 16
St. Clair, Margaret 21
JRR Tolkien 20+1=21
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21


----------



## Yardiff (Aug 31, 2018)

This is what I have to say to those banding together to force an out come. Let the votes fall as they will. This is probably just me but it seem wrong to private message each other to coordinate voting to keep a particular author high in the votes.


----------



## Tyler Do'Urden (Aug 31, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brown, Frederic 4
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 22
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 21
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 16
Leiber, Fritz 22
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 12
Norton, Andre 11
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 16
St. Clair, Margaret 19
JRR Tolkien 22 ​WHAT PART OF "YOU SHALL NOT PASS" DID YOU NOT UNDERSTAND
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21


----------



## Harzel (Aug 31, 2018)

Correction for [MENTION=48965]Imaro[/MENTION]'s overwritten votes...

Bellairs, John 19
Brown, Frederic 4
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 22
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 21
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 16
Leiber, Fritz 22
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 13
Norton, Andre 11
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 16
St. Clair, Margaret 19
JRR Tolkien 20
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21


----------



## Harzel (Aug 31, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brown, Frederic 4
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 22
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 21
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 14
Leiber, Fritz 22
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 13
Norton, Andre 11
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 16
St. Clair, Margaret 19
Tolkien, J.R.R. 21
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21


----------



## StormbringerAUS (Aug 31, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brown, Frederic 4
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 22
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 21
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 14
Leiber, Fritz 22 - 2 = 20
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 13
Norton, Andre 11
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 16
St. Clair, Margaret 19
Tolkien, J.R.R. 21 + 1 = 22
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Aug 31, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brown, Frederic 4
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 22
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 21
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 14
Leiber, Fritz 20
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 13
Norton, Andre 9
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 16
St. Clair, Margaret 19
Tolkien, J.R.R. 23
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21


----------



## Tallifer (Aug 31, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brown, Frederic 4
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 22
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 21
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 14
Leiber, Fritz 20
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 13
Norton, Andre 7
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 16
St. Clair, Margaret 19
Tolkien, J.R.R. 24
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21

No one can accuse me of having my vote manipulated: I have been consistent in my voting ever since I discovered that Moorcock did not have enough support to carry through to the end.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Aug 31, 2018)

I don't think Moorcock lacks support. It's more a case of people feeling it was more important to defend Tolkien.


----------



## Maxperson (Aug 31, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brown, Frederic 2
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 22
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 21
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 14
Leiber, Fritz 20
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 13
Norton, Andre 7
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 16
St. Clair, Margaret 19
Tolkien, J.R.R. 25
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21


----------



## tglassy (Aug 31, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brown, Frederic 2
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 22
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 21
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 14
Leiber, Fritz 20
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 11
Norton, Andre 7
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 16
St. Clair, Margaret 19
Tolkien, J.R.R. 26
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21


----------



## Maxperson (Aug 31, 2018)

Yardiff said:


> This is what I have to say to those banding together to force an out come. Let the votes fall as they will. This is probably just me but it seem wrong to private message each other to coordinate voting to keep a particular author high in the votes.




Meh.  It's an author that I have been upvoting already with a very few others.  I have been upvoting the ones I know and who have had great impact on the game.  Tolkien, Leiber, Vance, Zelazny and Moorcock.  The rest of the authors I really don't know, so I've just been jumping on the downvote bandwagon to get rid of them.  Vance is gone.


----------



## OB1 (Aug 31, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Brown, Frederic 0
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 22
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 21
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 14
Leiber, Fritz 20
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 11
Norton, Andre 7
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 16
St. Clair, Margaret 20
Tolkien, J.R.R. 26
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21


----------



## lowkey13 (Aug 31, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Aug 31, 2018)

Maxperson said:


> Meh.  It's an author that I have been upvoting already with a very few others.  I have been upvoting the ones I know and who have had great impact on the game.  Tolkien, Leiber, Vance, Zelazny and Moorcock.  The rest of the authors I really don't know, so I've just been jumping on the downvote bandwagon to get rid of them.  Vance is gone.




By that criterion, Lovecraft and Howard also had a huge impact on the game (And Burroughs, who is still in).

The others are irrelevant or imitators.

You could argue that C.S. Lewis also had a huge impact on the game, despite his conspicuous absence from the list, since he influenced his mate Tolkien.

And Verne, who was a big influence on Burroughs.


----------



## Maxperson (Aug 31, 2018)

Paul Farquhar said:


> By that criterion, Lovecraft and Howard also had a huge impact on the game (And Burroughs, who is still in).




What criterion?  I didn't give one.  I simply gave names of authors that I know had an impact on the game.  I can't see the impact of authors that I haven't read, and yes, I think Lovecraft did as well.  None of them had as much impact as Tolkien, though.  I believe(even though I haven't read the others) that he far outstrips any other author on the list.  Most of the races and some of the classes come directly from him, as do the iconic orcs, trolls and Balor(Balrog).  Also elven cloaks and boots.  And more.  



> You could argue that C.S. Lewis also had a huge impact on the game, despite his conspicuous absence from the list, since he influenced his mate Tolkien.




If we're going to go past the authors themselves, we might as well just vote teachers as the winner since they taught these guys to write in the first place.


----------



## Ralif Redhammer (Aug 31, 2018)

Upvote for the Professor, and a downvote for Norton. Like, I get her place in sci-fi canon, but her works have left me cold (Or have I just been reading the wrong Norton books). And aside from writing Quag Keep, is there any direct influence of her writing on D&D? 

Bellairs, John 19
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 22
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 21
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 14
Leiber, Fritz 21
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 11
Norton, Andre 5
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 16
St. Clair, Margaret 20
Tolkien, J.R.R. 25
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21


----------



## Flexor the Mighty! (Aug 31, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 22
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 21
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 14
Leiber, Fritz 21 + 1 =22
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 11
Norton, Andre 5 - 2 = 3
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 16
St. Clair, Margaret 20
Tolkien, J.R.R. 25
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21


----------



## Parmandur (Aug 31, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 22
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 21
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 14
Leiber, Fritz 22
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 9
Norton, Andre 3
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 16
St. Clair, Margaret 20
Tolkien, J.R.R. 26
Weinbaum, Stanley 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21


----------



## Blue (Aug 31, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 22
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 21
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 14
Leiber, Fritz 22
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 9
Norton, Andre 3
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 16
St. Clair, Margaret 20
Tolkien, J.R.R. 26
Weinbaum, Stanley 14
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 22


----------



## Yardiff (Aug 31, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 22
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 21
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 14
Leiber, Fritz 22
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 9+1=10
Norton, Andre 3
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 16
St. Clair, Margaret 20
Tolkien, J.R.R. 26-2=24
Weinbaum, Stanley 14
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 22


----------



## Prakriti (Aug 31, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 22
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 21
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 14
Leiber, Fritz 22
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 8
Norton, Andre 3
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 16
St. Clair, Margaret 20
Tolkien, J.R.R. 25
Weinbaum, Stanley 14
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 22


----------



## CleverNickName (Aug 31, 2018)

Paul Farquhar said:


> You could argue that C.S. Lewis also had a huge impact on the game, despite his conspicuous absence from the list, since he influenced his mate Tolkien.
> 
> And Verne, who was a big influence on Burroughs.



I know right?  Verne was probably one of the most influential science fiction writers of all time (I mean, he only put the "science" in Sci-Fi, for crying out loud).  And I don't know how Mary Shelly didn't make this list; she pretty much invented an entire genre of fiction.

*sigh*  But I'm sure Gygax had his own reasons for writing this list the way he did.  A fun side-thread would be for everyone to list their Top 10 Influences in _their own_ D&D games...

...here's mine.[SBLOCK]CleverNickName's List of Most Influential Fiction

This was harder than I thought it would be.  But here it is, the ten most influential authors (and their specific works) that have had the biggest impact on my particuar style of D&D.  From least to most:

10. Margaret Weis & Tracy Hickman, "Dragonlance" series
9.  Michael Moorcock, "The Knight of the Swords"
8.  Lloyd Alexander, "The Chronicles of Prydain" series
7.  Neil Gaiman, "Neverwhere" and "Norse Mythology"
6.  Jules Verne, "Journey to the Center of the Earth"
5.  Bram Stoker, "Dracula"
4.  Mary Shelly, "Frankenstein"
3.  Edgar Rice Burroughs, "Caspak" trilogy
2.  Terry Brooks, "Heritage of Shannara" series
1.  JRR Tolkien, "The Hobbit" and "Lord of the Rings" trilogy

Why, yes, I _do_ play a gothic-horror, steampunk campaign setting.  Why do you ask?  

Don't even get me started on the "Honorable Mentions" list.  This was hard enough![/SBLOCK]


----------



## Bradley Hindman (Aug 31, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 22
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 21
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 14
Leiber, Fritz 22
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 8
*Norton, Andre 3 + 1 = 4*
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 16
St. Clair, Margaret 20
*Tolkien, J.R.R. 25 - 2 = 23*
Weinbaum, Stanley 14
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 22

I agree that Norton is better known for her science fiction than fantasy (I am most familiar with her pulp sci-fi from the 40s and 50s), but Nyah . . . I don't need to be logical.


----------



## Imaro (Aug 31, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 22
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 21
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 14
Leiber, Fritz 22
Merritt, A. 18
*Moorcock, Michael 9*  Alignment and cosmologically aligned forces... the multiverse... weird monsters & races... sorry this is my D&D not Howard and not Tolkien. 
Norton, Andre 3 + 1 = 4
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 16
St. Clair, Margaret 20
*Tolkien, J.R.R. 21*
Weinbaum, Stanley 14
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 22

 He probably won't win but I honestly don't understand how anyone could feel Howard, Tolkien or most of the other authors on this list were a bigger influence than Moorcock on D&D.  Some of the D&D stuff is lifted directly from his stories and his pantheon was featured in the original Deities and Demigods.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Aug 31, 2018)

Imaro said:


> He probably won't win but I honestly don't understand how anyone could feel Howard, Tolkien or most of the other authors on this list were a bigger influence than Moorcock on D&D.  Some of the D&D stuff is lifted directly from his stories and his pantheon was featured in the original Deities and Demigods.




I think it's clear more people are voting on the basis of what they like and dislike rather than level of influence. And, whilst _I_ like Moorcock _and_ Tolkien, they are very different, so I can understand why someone might like one and not the other. (Moorcock himself claims to have been influenced by Howard, but not Tolkien.)

And it is worth noting that Lovecraft also featured in the original Deities and Demigods, and he was voted off first.


----------



## Flexor the Mighty! (Aug 31, 2018)

Planar matters and the eternal struggle between Law and Chaos is pure Moorcock. However the tone and focus of Howard and LIeber's self interested heroes looking for riches and sometimes ending up doing some good as a by product of that was always more in line with how I view D&D. No doubt Moorcock's work is highly influential and I haven't voted for it either way.  Since pretty much all of modern D&D campaigns I've read center around saving the world I find my type of D&D is not very popular.  Alas!


----------



## Lord Mhoram (Aug 31, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 22
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 21
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 14
Leiber, Fritz 20
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 9 
Norton, Andre  4
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 16
St. Clair, Margaret 20
Tolkien, J.R.R. 22
Weinbaum, Stanley 14
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 22


----------



## Invisible Stalker (Aug 31, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
    Burroughs, Edgar Rice 22
    Carter, Lin 16
    de Camp & Pratt 19
    Dunsany, Lord 21
    Fox, Gardner 19
    Lanier, Sterling 14
    Leiber, Fritz 20
    Merritt, A. 18
    Moorcock, Michael 9
    Norton, Andre 4
    Offutt, Andrew J. 16
    Pratt, Fletcher 16
    St. Clair, Margaret 20
Tolkien, J.R.R. 23
    Weinbaum, Stanley 14
    Wellman, Manley Wade 16
    Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 20


----------



## Harzel (Aug 31, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
    Burroughs, Edgar Rice 22
    Carter, Lin 16
    de Camp & Pratt 19
    Dunsany, Lord 21
    Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 12
    Leiber, Fritz 20
    Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 10
    Norton, Andre 4
    Offutt, Andrew J. 16
    Pratt, Fletcher 16
    St. Clair, Margaret 20
    Tolkien, J.R.R. 23
    Weinbaum, Stanley 14
    Wellman, Manley Wade 16
    Williamson, Jack 18
    Zelazny, Roger 20


----------



## CleverNickName (Aug 31, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 22
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 21
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 12
Leiber, Fritz 20
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 10
*Norton, Andre 4-2=2*
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 16
St. Clair, Margaret 20
*Tolkien, J.R.R. 23+1=24*
Weinbaum, Stanley 14
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 20


----------



## Ed Laprade (Aug 31, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 22
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 21
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 12
Leiber, Fritz 20
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 10
Norton, Andre 4 +1 = 5
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 16
St. Clair, Margaret 20
Tolkien, J.R.R. 23 -2 = 21
Weinbaum, Stanley 14
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 20


----------



## chrisrtld (Aug 31, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 22
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 21
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 12
Leiber, Fritz 20
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 8
Norton, Andre 5
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 16
St. Clair, Margaret 20
Tolkien, J.R.R. 22
Weinbaum, Stanley 14
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 20


----------



## rczarnec (Sep 1, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 22
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 21
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 12
Leiber, Fritz 20
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 9
Norton, Andre 5
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 14
St. Clair, Margaret 20
Tolkien, J.R.R. 22
Weinbaum, Stanley 14
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 20


----------



## Maxperson (Sep 1, 2018)

Imaro said:


> He probably won't win but I honestly don't understand how anyone could feel Howard, Tolkien or most of the other authors on this list were a bigger influence than Moorcock on D&D.  Some of the D&D stuff is lifted directly from his stories and his pantheon was featured in the original Deities and Demigods.



His pantheon was briefly listed in the Deities and Demigods and you have the original alignment system.  That's it.  Oh, and I suppose the Nine Lives Stealer could be connected to Stormbringer.

Tolkien on the other hand has mentioned in Chainmail, Balrogs, Nazgul, Hobbits, Goblins, Dwarves, Trolls, Ents, Dragons, Wargs(complete with goblin riders) and name mention.  In 1e the Ranger class is lifted practically straight from Aragorn, complete with the ability to use scrying devices like crystal balls(Palantir).


----------



## Tyler Do'Urden (Sep 1, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 22
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 21
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 12
Leiber, Fritz 20
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 9
Norton, Andre 5
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 14
St. Clair, Margaret 18
Tolkien, J.R.R. 23
Weinbaum, Stanley 14
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 20


----------



## Dausuul (Sep 1, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 22
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 21
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 12
Leiber, Fritz 20
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 9
Norton, Andre 5
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 14
St. Clair, Margaret 18
Tolkien, J.R.R. 21
Weinbaum, Stanley 14
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21


----------



## Lanefan (Sep 1, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
    Burroughs, Edgar Rice 22
    Carter, Lin 16
    de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 19
    Fox, Gardner 19
    Lanier, Sterling 12
    Leiber, Fritz 20
    Merritt, A. 18
    Moorcock, Michael 9
    Norton, Andre 5
    Offutt, Andrew J. 16
    Pratt, Fletcher 14
    St. Clair, Margaret 18
Tolkien, J.R.R. 22
    Weinbaum, Stanley 14
    Wellman, Manley Wade 16
    Williamson, Jack 18
    Zelazny, Roger 21


----------



## Yardiff (Sep 1, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 22
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 19
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 12
Leiber, Fritz 20
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 9+1=10
Norton, Andre 5
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 14
St. Clair, Margaret 18
Tolkien, J.R.R. 22-=2=20
Weinbaum, Stanley 14
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21


----------



## Tallifer (Sep 1, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 22
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 19
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 12
Leiber, Fritz 20
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 10
Norton, Andre 5
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 14
St. Clair, Margaret 18
Tolkien, J.R.R. 21
Weinbaum, Stanley 14
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 19


----------



## Parmandur (Sep 1, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 22
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 19
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 12
Leiber, Fritz 20
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 8
Norton, Andre 5
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 14
St. Clair, Margaret 18
Tolkien, J.R.R. 22
Weinbaum, Stanley 14
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 19


----------



## lowkey13 (Sep 1, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Sep 1, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 22
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 19
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 12
Leiber, Fritz 20
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 8
Norton, Andre 3
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 14
St. Clair, Margaret 18
Tolkien, J.R.R. 21
Weinbaum, Stanley 14
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 20


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Sep 1, 2018)

Maxperson said:


> His pantheon was briefly listed in the Deities and Demigods and you have the original alignment system.  That's it.  Oh, and I suppose the Nine Lives Stealer could be connected to Stormbringer.
> 
> Tolkien on the other hand has mentioned in Chainmail, Balrogs, Nazgul, Hobbits, Goblins, Dwarves, Trolls, Ents, Dragons, Wargs(complete with goblin riders) and name mention.  In 1e the Ranger class is lifted practically straight from Aragorn, complete with the ability to use scrying devices like crystal balls(Palantir).




The Law vs Chaos axis on the alignment wheel is entirely down to Moorcock. Plus most of the multiverse/planar travel, many of the artefacts in the DMG (Hand and Eye of Vecna, Blackrazor, etc). Hexblade Warlock is practically Elric, but that came later of course.

It doesn't really matter though. If you don't like an author you won't have read them much, so you wont know which of D&D's ripped off ideas where theirs.

E.g. Yuan-Ti are Howard.

Oh, yeah, you can't credit Tolkien with inventing crystal balls.


----------



## Bradley Hindman (Sep 1, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 22
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 19
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 12
Leiber, Fritz 20
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 8
*Norton, Andre 3 + 1 = 4*
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 14
St. Clair, Margaret 18
*Tolkien, J.R.R. 21 - 2 = 19*
Weinbaum, Stanley 14
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 20


----------



## Nikosandros (Sep 1, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 22
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 19
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 12
Leiber, Fritz 20
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 8
*Norton, Andre 2*
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 14
St. Clair, Margaret 18
*Tolkien, J.R.R. 20*
Weinbaum, Stanley 14
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 20


----------



## tglassy (Sep 1, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 22
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 19
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 12
Leiber, Fritz 20
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 6
Norton, Andre 2
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 14
St. Clair, Margaret 18
Tolkien, J.R.R. 21
Weinbaum, Stanley 14
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 20


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Sep 1, 2018)

CleverNickName said:


> I know right?  Verne was probably one of the most influential science fiction writers of all time (I mean, he only put the "science" in Sci-Fi, for crying out loud).  And I don't know how Mary Shelly didn't make this list; she pretty much invented an entire genre of fiction.
> 
> *sigh*  But I'm sure Gygax had his own reasons for writing this list the way he did.  A fun side-thread would be for everyone to list their Top 10 Influences in _their own_ D&D games...
> 
> ...




My suspicion is Gygax wasn't well read outside of pulp magazines...

Anyway, here is a list of the authors who have had a direct influence on my current campaign (i.e. I've ripped them off):

[SBLOCK]
Critchon, Michael
Dickens, Charles
Howard, Robert E.
Lofting, Hugh
Lovecraft, H.P.
Martin, G.R.R.
Pratchett, Terry
Python, Monty
Rowling, J. K.
Stevenson, Robert Louis
Stoker, Bram
Tolkien, J.R.R.
Verne, Jules[/SBLOCK]


----------



## Dausuul (Sep 1, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 22
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 19
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 12
Leiber, Fritz 20
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 6
Norton, Andre 2
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 14
St. Clair, Margaret 18
Tolkien, J.R.R. 19 (downvoted)
Weinbaum, Stanley 14
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21 (upvoted)


----------



## Maxperson (Sep 1, 2018)

Paul Farquhar said:


> The Law vs Chaos axis on the alignment wheel is entirely down to Moorcock. Plus most of the multiverse/planar travel, many of the artefacts in the DMG (Hand and Eye of Vecna, Blackrazor, etc). Hexblade Warlock is practically Elric, but that came later of course.
> 
> It doesn't really matter though. If you don't like an author you won't have read them much, so you wont know which of D&D's ripped off ideas where theirs.
> 
> E.g. Yuan-Ti are Howard.




Heh.  

Me: and you have the original alignment system.(Law vs. Chaos)

You: The Law vs Chaos axis on the alignment wheel is entirely down to Moorcock.(Original alignment system)

So you have the original alignment system and a sword that is kinda sorta, but not really, like Stormbringer.  The pantheon was removed after being in the game briefly and I never saw it actually used, but I imagine it was used by some.  That's not a whole lot of impact compared to the list I gave of Tolkien's.



> It doesn't really matter though. If you don't like an author you won't have read them much, so you wont know which of D&D's ripped off ideas where theirs.
> 
> E.g. Yuan-Ti are Howard.




It had nothing to do with dislike.  I just never got any of their books when I was younger.  You are correct that I won't know which ideas from D&D that were taken from them, but given the breadth of Tolkien's influence, I doubt it was much more than what you gave to Howard above.  If feel confident that Tolkien contributed the most.  



> Oh, yeah, you can't credit Tolkien with inventing crystal balls.




I didn't.  I credited Tolkien with being the reason why the Ranger class in 1e, which included the Strider title, could use them.  The Numenoreans/Dunedain(Rangers of the North) used the Palantir.


----------



## OB1 (Sep 1, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 22
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 19
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 10
Leiber, Fritz 20
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 6
Norton, Andre 2
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 14
St. Clair, Margaret 19
Tolkien, J.R.R. 19
Weinbaum, Stanley 14
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21


----------



## rczarnec (Sep 1, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 22
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 19
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 10
Leiber, Fritz 20
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 7
Norton, Andre 2
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 14
St. Clair, Margaret 19
Tolkien, J.R.R. 19
Weinbaum, Stanley 12
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21


----------



## Sacrosanct (Sep 1, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 22
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 19
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 10
Leiber, Fritz 21  If you haven't actually read Leiber, you totally should.  Through an adult lens.  Then the parallels and inspiration from Leiber into D&D will be striking. 
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 7
Norton, Andre 2
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 14
St. Clair, Margaret 19
Tolkien, J.R.R. 17  He contributed a ton.  But not nearly as much as people think.  We had a thread about this last year or so
Weinbaum, Stanley 12
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21


----------



## Maxperson (Sep 1, 2018)

Bellairs, John 19
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 22
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 19
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 10
Leiber, Fritz 21
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 7
Norton, Andre 2
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 14
St. Clair, Margaret 19
Tolkien, J.R.R. 18
Weinbaum, Stanley 10
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Sep 1, 2018)

Maxperson said:


> Heh.
> 
> Me: and you have the original alignment system.(Law vs. Chaos)
> 
> ...



I'm afraid I have to accuse you of intellectual dishonesty.

Law and Chaos where a major feature of the game in earlier editions (5e downplays alignment, but you seem to be trying to pretend it was never significant, which is simply not true), and it was directly and openly based on Moorcock. The Great Wheel, and all the planer stuff stems directly from that. Without Moorcock and with only Tolkien D&D would only have one world. 

And to say a sword (actually several swords) is "kinda sorta like Stormbringer" is equivalent to saying that "D&D orcs are kinda sorta like Tolkien's Orcs". Without Moorcock D&D would have no sentient weapons.

Anyone who tried to downplay Tolkien's influence on D&D is being intellectually dishonest, but anyone who downplays Moorcock's influence is equally dishonest. Both where incredibly important in shaping the game.


Whether or not you like either of them, whether or not you think either are good writers are open to debate. But to suggest either was not a significant influence on D&D is either ignorant or dishonest.


----------



## Sacrosanct (Sep 1, 2018)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Without Moorcock D&D would have no sentient weapons.




Sure it would.  Gygax was pretty well versed in mythology, and Sharur was a speaking sentient weapon from Sumarian folklore.


----------



## happyhermit (Sep 1, 2018)

> Bellairs, John 19
> Burroughs, Edgar Rice 22
> Carter, Lin 16
> de Camp & Pratt 19
> ...




I really wanted to stay out of this but I owe Tolkien a lot. I still remember getting a hand-me down copy of "The Hobbit" from my mom, who was given it by her brother, and I remember reading it to my little sister (and she does too even though she was very young). Managed to get both mom and sister (and other sis) into a game later on and am pretty sure that book helped out, it pretty much told the story of an adventure; Form the party, define roles, start the campaign, random encounter, explore, get a magic item, kill the big bad monster and get the treasure. So just for that I have to give Tolkien props.

As for Margaret St. Clair, probably the less I say the better. I wish there were more women on the list so I didn't have to feel bad about voting one of the very few down, but I can't stand to see this author higher than Tolkien and others.


----------



## Tyler Do'Urden (Sep 1, 2018)

Bellairs, John 17
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 22
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 19
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 10
Leiber, Fritz 21
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 7
Norton, Andre 2
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 14
St. Clair, Margaret 17
Tolkien, J.R.R. 20
Weinbaum, Stanley 10
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21


----------



## Maxperson (Sep 1, 2018)

Paul Farquhar said:


> I'm afraid I have to accuse you of intellectual dishonesty.




You could accuse me of being the Tooth Fairy and be as accurate as that accusation there.



> Law and Chaos where a major feature of the game in earlier editions (5e downplays alignment, but you seem to be trying to pretend it was never significant, which is simply not true), and it was directly and openly based on Moorcock. The Great Wheel, and all the planer stuff stems directly from that. Without Moorcock and with only Tolkien D&D would only have one world.




If by "you seem to be trying to pretend it was never significant," you actually mean that I am flat out saying it was significant, you would be correct!!

I specify the original alignment system, because that was the Law vs. Chaos alignment system where alignment was much like Moorcock described in his books, though Zelazny also had a strong Law vs. Chaos influence.  With the advent of 1e and the 9 axis system, law and chaos didn't mean nearly what it did in the original game.  In fact, it bore almost no resemblance at all to Moorcock's system at all, other than the names Lawful and Chaotic.



> And to say a sword (actually several swords) is "kinda sorta like Stormbringer" is equivalent to saying that "D&D orcs are kinda sorta like Tolkien's Orcs". Without Moorcock D&D would have no sentient weapons.




The Nine Lives stealer had very little in common with Stormbringer who could take hundreds of souls and convert them to much more than the Nine Lives Stealer.  It was only kinda, sorta like Stormbringer, and now you're being intellectually dishonest by arguing otherwise.

And perhaps you aren't aware that Tolkien had a sentient weapon as well.  Gurthang was intelligent and spoke.  "And from the blade rang a cold voice in answer,"yea I will drink thy blood, that I may forget the blood of Beleg my master, and the blood of Brandir slain unjustly. I will slay thee swiftly""

So you can scratch Moorcock off as being the reason for them to exist in D&D.  He has to share that distinction with.............Tolkien!!



> Anyone who tried to downplay Tolkien's influence on D&D is being intellectually dishonest, but anyone who downplays Moorcock's influence is equally dishonest. Both where incredibly important in shaping the game.




I'm not downplaying either one.  I'm saying, and saying it factually, as I have shown with my posts on what Tolkien contributed, that Tolkien contributed far more.  



> Whether or not you like either of them, whether or not you think either are good writers are open to debate. But to suggest either was not a significant influence on D&D is either ignorant or dishonest.




You can cut out all the Strawmen now.  I think both of them were significant, or I wouldn't have named Moorcock on my small list of authors to upvote.


----------



## Prakriti (Sep 1, 2018)

Bellairs, John 17
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 22
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 19
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 10
Leiber, Fritz 21
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 5
Norton, Andre 2
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 14
St. Clair, Margaret 17
Tolkien, J.R.R. 21
Weinbaum, Stanley 10
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21


----------



## Lord Mhoram (Sep 1, 2018)

Bellairs, John 17
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 22
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 19
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 10
Leiber, Fritz 21
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 3
Norton, Andre 2
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 14
St. Clair, Margaret 17
Tolkien, J.R.R. 22
Weinbaum, Stanley 10
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21


----------



## CleverNickName (Sep 1, 2018)

Bellairs, John 17
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 22
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 19
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 10
Leiber, Fritz 21
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 3
*Norton, Andre 2-2=0* Gone but not forgotten
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 14
St. Clair, Margaret 17
*Tolkien, J.R.R. 22+1=23*
Weinbaum, Stanley 10
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21


----------



## TiwazTyrsfist (Sep 1, 2018)

Bellairs, John 17
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 22
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 19
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 10
Leiber, Fritz 21
Merritt, A. 18
*Moorcock, Michael 4*
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 14
St. Clair, Margaret 17
*Tolkien, J.R.R. 21*
Weinbaum, Stanley 10
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21


----------



## Ed Laprade (Sep 1, 2018)

Bellairs, John 17
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 22 +1 = 23
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 19
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 10
Leiber, Fritz 21
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 4
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 14
St. Clair, Margaret 17
Tolkien, J.R.R. 21 -2 = 19
Weinbaum, Stanley 10
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21


----------



## chrisrtld (Sep 1, 2018)

Bellairs, John 17
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 19
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 10
Leiber, Fritz 21
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 2
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 14
St. Clair, Margaret 17
Tolkien, J.R.R. 20
Weinbaum, Stanley 10
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21


----------



## bid (Sep 1, 2018)

Bellairs, John 17
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 19
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 10
Leiber, Fritz 21
Merritt, A. 18
Moorcock, Michael 0
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 14
St. Clair, Margaret 17
Tolkien, J.R.R. 20
Weinbaum, Stanley 10
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 23

Lesshen.


----------



## Prakriti (Sep 1, 2018)

Bellairs, John 17
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 19
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 10
Leiber, Fritz 21
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 14
St. Clair, Margaret 17
Tolkien, J.R.R. 20
Weinbaum, Stanley 10
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 22

Fixing the post above. Upvotes are only 1, not 2.


----------



## Tallifer (Sep 2, 2018)

bid said:


> Moorcock, Michael 0





Farewell. I will always fondly remember Chaosium's take on the world of Elric.


----------



## Ibrandul (Sep 2, 2018)

Wow.

The one time I voted in this thread, it was to upvote Moorcock.

I can actually kind of understand Lovecraft and Howard going out early in this day and age (though I dearly love them both) -- but Moorcock? 

Brilliant and pioneering writer of "genre" fare (forget the alignment system, without him there would be no "planar" D&D at all and certainly no Spelljammer) AND "literary" fiction (no one remaining on this list has received such accolades from the literati, arguably including Tolkien; cf. _Mother London_'s Whitbread Prize nom and _The Condition of Muzak_'s Guardian Prize win).

I'm baffled.


----------



## SkidAce (Sep 2, 2018)

jeremypowell said:


> Wow.
> 
> The one time I voted in this thread, it was to upvote Moorcock.
> 
> ...




Dont be baffled.  

The list of people who have actually read about Elric and Stormbringer, Erokose, Tanelorn etc is shrinking day by day.

Times they be a changing...


----------



## Invisible Stalker (Sep 2, 2018)

Bellairs, John 17
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 19
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 10
Leiber, Fritz 21
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 14
St. Clair, Margaret 17
Tolkien, J.R.R. 21
Weinbaum, Stanley 10
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 20


----------



## tglassy (Sep 2, 2018)

All I know is I’ve read dozens upon dozens of fantasy books. I’ve never heard of anyone on this list but Tolkien. I’ve heard of a few of their characters, but none of the authors. 

That is called the Test of Time. You can be the greatest author in history, but if newer generations don’t pick you up and read your works, your work has not stood the rest of time. 

Tolkien’s has. Out of everyone on this list, Tolkien’s work has stood the test of time.


----------



## Ibrandul (Sep 2, 2018)

SkidAce said:


> The list of people who have actually read about Elric and Stormbringer, Erokose, Tanelorn etc is shrinking day by day.




OK, sure. But that's true of most of the remaining names on the list. So why are so many people downvoting Moorcock?


----------



## Blue (Sep 2, 2018)

*Bellairs, John 15*
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 19
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 10
Leiber, Fritz 21
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 14
St. Clair, Margaret 17
Tolkien, J.R.R. 21
Weinbaum, Stanley 10
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
*Zelazny, Roger 21*


----------



## werecorpse (Sep 2, 2018)

Bellairs, John 15-2=13
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 19
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 10
Leiber, Fritz 21
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 14
St. Clair, Margaret 17
Tolkien, J.R.R. 21+1=22
Weinbaum, Stanley 10
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21

I am an avid roleplayer, d&d in particular, but don’t read that much so I’m supporting those I know and like who have the most influence on my gaming and downvoting those I don’t really know. I am disappointed to see Moorcock gone. I really liked his books.
My top 4 order would be Tolkien then either Moorcock or Leiber, then Zelazny. Beyond that there are only a half dozen or so I care about so the rest are just downvote fodder.


----------



## Harzel (Sep 2, 2018)

jeremypowell said:


> OK, sure. But that's true of most of the remaining names on the list. So why are so many people downvoting Moorcock?




Not sure why people were downvoting Moorcock, possibly the beat-down-major-competitors syndrome.  However, I can tell you that had people not been beating up on Tolkien, a bunch of my upvotes could have gone to bolster Moorcock.


----------



## Harzel (Sep 2, 2018)

Bellairs, John 13
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 19
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 8
Leiber, Fritz 21
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 14
St. Clair, Margaret 17
Tolkien, J.R.R. 23
Weinbaum, Stanley 10
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21


----------



## CleverNickName (Sep 2, 2018)

Harzel said:


> Not sure why people were downvoting Moorcock, possibly the beat-down-major-competitors syndrome.  However, I can tell you that had people not been beating up on Tolkien, a bunch of my upvotes could have gone to bolster Moorcock.



Same here.  Moorcock should have made the top-five easily.  I couldn't help him make it, though, because I've had to spend my upvotes elsewhere.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Sep 2, 2018)

tglassy said:


> All I know is I’ve read dozens upon dozens of fantasy books. I’ve never heard of anyone on this list but Tolkien. I’ve heard of a few of their characters, but none of the authors.
> 
> That is called the Test of Time. You can be the greatest author in history, but if newer generations don’t pick you up and read your works, your work has not stood the rest of time.
> 
> Tolkien’s has. Out of everyone on this list, Tolkien’s work has stood the test of time.




John Bellairs has a movie out later this year (The House with a Clock in it's Walls), Edgar Rice Burroughs last had a movie in 2012 (and probably has more movies based on his work than anyone else on the list), Howard in 2011. Moorcock's latest novel was published in 2010, and he is working on another. And if you have never read Fritz Leiber or Roger Zelazny you are seriously missing out.


Sometimes it's the test of time, sometimes it's just ignorance.


Getting very tempted to start downvoting Tolkien.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Sep 2, 2018)

Harzel said:


> Not sure why people were downvoting Moorcock, possibly the beat-down-major-competitors syndrome.  However, I can tell you that had people not been beating up on Tolkien, a bunch of my upvotes could have gone to bolster Moorcock.




Likewise.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Sep 2, 2018)

Bellairs, John 13
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 19
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 8
Leiber, Fritz 21
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 14
St. Clair, Margaret 17
Tolkien, J.R.R. 21 - sure he is great, but he seems to be leaving some people blinkered to other writers
Weinbaum, Stanley 10
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 22


----------



## Lanefan (Sep 2, 2018)

Bellairs, John 13
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 19
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 8
Leiber, Fritz 21
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 14
St. Clair, Margaret 17
Tolkien, J.R.R. 22
Weinbaum, Stanley 10
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 22

Of those left on this list Tolkein is one of the not many I've heard of and one of the very few I've read (and the only one I've enjoyed) - I'm old school, but not that old.  Most of these people were a big deal in the 60's and early 70's, right when Gygax et al were designing D&D, but - as someone else wisely pointed out a bit upthread - have since then somewhat failed the test of time.

I've never read Moorcock (though I probably should, one of these days) and I've read enough of Lovecraft's ravings to realize I don't want to read any more of them.


----------



## Tallifer (Sep 2, 2018)

Bellairs, John 13
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 23
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 19
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 8
Leiber, Fritz 21
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 14
St. Clair, Margaret 17
Tolkien, J.R.R. 23
Weinbaum, Stanley 10
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 20

I will never ever forget the awful dread and feeling of hopelessness which struck me when at the age of fourteen I read Lovecraft's masterful story "The Colour from Space."


----------



## tglassy (Sep 2, 2018)

Bellairs, John 13
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 21
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 19
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 8
Leiber, Fritz 21
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 14
St. Clair, Margaret 17
Tolkien, J.R.R. 24
Weinbaum, Stanley 10
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 20


Hey, I tried to strike a truce with the Tolkien haters, leaving Tolkien alone for a while while we all downvote the chaff and give other authors the chance to get upvoted. But no, the Tolkien haters wouldn’t have it. So the battle for Middle Earth continues.


----------



## lowkey13 (Sep 2, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


----------



## rczarnec (Sep 2, 2018)

Bellairs, John 13
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 21
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 19
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 8
Leiber, Fritz 21
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 14
St. Clair, Margaret 17
Tolkien, J.R.R. 20
Weinbaum, Stanley 10
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 22


----------



## Imaro (Sep 2, 2018)

Bellairs, John 13
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 21
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 19
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 8
Leiber, Fritz 22
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 14
St. Clair, Margaret 17
Tolkien, J.R.R. 18
Weinbaum, Stanley 10
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 22


----------



## Imaro (Sep 2, 2018)

tglassy said:


> All I know is I’ve read dozens upon dozens of fantasy books. I’ve never heard of anyone on this list but Tolkien. I’ve heard of a few of their characters, but none of the authors.
> 
> That is called the Test of Time. You can be the greatest author in history, but if newer generations don’t pick you up and read your works, your work has not stood the rest of time.
> 
> Tolkien’s has. Out of everyone on this list, Tolkien’s work has stood the test of time.




I'd argue more of the newer generations have watched the movies (as opposed to having actually read the books) based on Tolkien's works... furthermore I'd also argue the movies are much more action packed and move at a faster pace than the actual books.


----------



## tglassy (Sep 2, 2018)

A, movie’s have to move faster than books. They’re movies. 

B, I don’t see why being action packed is a factor of whether or not something stands the test of time. If you mean people like it because it’s more action packed, most of my generation, at least, has read the books. In my circle, at least. 

C, regardless, they know Tolkien’s name and what he wrote. Can’t say that about many of these other authors. Sure, they might recognize some of their works, but they won’t know their names.


----------



## Parmandur (Sep 2, 2018)

Bellairs, John 13
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 21
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 19
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 8
Leiber, Fritz 22
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 14
St. Clair, Margaret 17
Tolkien, J.R.R. 18 + 1 = 19 the underrating continues
Weinbaum, Stanley 10
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 22 - 2 = 20


----------



## SkidAce (Sep 2, 2018)

jeremypowell said:


> OK, sure. But that's true of most of the remaining names on the list. So why are so many people downvoting Moorcock?




They recognize the name, not the material, so...

"kill it with fire"

j/k, I don't know.


----------



## Dausuul (Sep 2, 2018)

Bellairs, John 13
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 21
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 19
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 8
Leiber, Fritz 22-2=20
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 14
St. Clair, Margaret 17
Tolkien, J.R.R. 19
Weinbaum, Stanley 10
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 20+1=21


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Sep 2, 2018)

Given there is a fair bit of misinformation floating around I've put in some info about the names on the list. The dates are when their writings where published (according to Wikipedia), not when they lived.
*
Name               Dates          Known for*
Anderson, Poul (1948–2001) Three Hearts and Three Lions
Bellairs, John (1966–1991)  The Face in the Frost, The House with a Clock in Its Walls
Brackett, Leigh (1940-1980) The Empire Strikes Back(?) 
Brown, Frederic (1938-1965) Star Trek TOS (Arena)
Burroughs, Edgar Rice (1911-1950) Tarzan, John Carter
Carter, Lin (1965-1998) copying other authors on this list 
de Camp, L. Sprague (1937–1996) ditto
de Camp & Pratt (both of these are listed separately) 
Derleth, August (1937-1973) another plagiarist
Dunsany, Lord (1905-1957) The King of Elfland's Daughter, inventing the genre
Farmer, P. J.  (1952-2009) Riverworld
Fox, Gardner (1939-1973) The Flash, Batman
Howard, R. E. (1926-1936) Conan
Lanier, Sterling (1961-1983) The Peculiar Exploits of Brigadier Ffellowes 
Leiber, Fritz (1958-1988) Lankhmar
Lovecraft, H. P. (1917-1937) The Call of Cthulhu
Merritt, A. (1917–1943) The Devil-Doll (film, adapted from Burn, Witch, Burn!)
Moorcock, Michael (1957-date) Elric
Norton, Andre (1934-2005) Quag Keep
Offutt, Andrew J. (1970-2004) Thieves' World, Erotica
Pratt, Fletcher (1940-1956) Being ghost-written by L. Sprague de Camp
Saberhagen, Fred (1964-2005) Book of Swords
St. Clair, Margaret (1956-1974) The Best of Margaret St. Clair 
Tolkien, J. R. R. (1937-1967) Translating Sir Gawain and the Green Knight
Vance, Jack (1950-2009) The Dying Earth
Weinbaum, Stanley (1933-1935) A Martian Odyssey, dying before he could write anything else
Wellman, Manley Wade (1929-1986) Nothing I've heard of
Williamson, Jack  (1926-2006) Legion of Space
Zelazny, Roger (1970-1995) The Chronicles of Amber


----------



## Maxperson (Sep 2, 2018)

SkidAce said:


> Dont be baffled.
> 
> The list of people who have actually read about Elric and Stormbringer, Erokose, Tanelorn etc is shrinking day by day.
> 
> Times they be a changing...




Elric was my favorite, followed very closely by Corum.


----------



## Maxperson (Sep 2, 2018)

tglassy said:


> All I know is I’ve read dozens upon dozens of fantasy books. I’ve never heard of anyone on this list but Tolkien. I’ve heard of a few of their characters, but none of the authors.
> 
> That is called the Test of Time. You can be the greatest author in history, but if newer generations don’t pick you up and read your works, your work has not stood the rest of time.
> 
> Tolkien’s has. Out of everyone on this list, Tolkien’s work has stood the test of time.




Read Michael Moorcock's Elric and Corum books, and The Amber books by Zelazny.  I still re-read those every so often.  Fritz Leiber was fun as well, but I think the first two are better.  Tolkien does rule them all, though.


----------



## Maxperson (Sep 2, 2018)

Bellairs, John 13
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 21
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 19
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 8
Leiber, Fritz 20
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 14
St. Clair, Margaret 17
Tolkien, J.R.R. 20
Weinbaum, Stanley 8
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21


----------



## Yardiff (Sep 2, 2018)

Bellairs, John 13
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 21
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 19
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 8
Leiber, Fritz 20+1=21
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 14
St. Clair, Margaret 17
Tolkien, J.R.R. 20-2=18
Weinbaum, Stanley 8
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 21


----------



## Prakriti (Sep 2, 2018)

Bellairs, John 13
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 21
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 19
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 8
Leiber, Fritz 21
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 14
St. Clair, Margaret 17
Tolkien, J.R.R. 19
Weinbaum, Stanley 8
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 19


----------



## OB1 (Sep 2, 2018)

Bellairs, John 13
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 21
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 19
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 8
Leiber, Fritz 21
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 18
Tolkien, J.R.R. 19
Weinbaum, Stanley 8
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 19


----------



## Lord Mhoram (Sep 2, 2018)

Bellairs, John 13
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 21
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 19
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 8
Leiber, Fritz 19
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 18
Tolkien, J.R.R. 19
Weinbaum, Stanley 8
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 20


----------



## Ibrandul (Sep 2, 2018)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Weinbaum, Stanley (1933-1935) A Martian Odyssey, dying before he could write anything else




Most talented toddler in all of literature!


----------



## TiwazTyrsfist (Sep 2, 2018)

Bellairs, John 13
*Burroughs, Edgar Rice 22*
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 19
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 8
Leiber, Fritz 19
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 18
*Tolkien, J.R.R. 17* - I will cast him into the fires of Mount Doom
Weinbaum, Stanley 8
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 20


----------



## CleverNickName (Sep 2, 2018)

Bellairs, John 13
*Burroughs, Edgar Rice 22-2=20*
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 19
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 8
Leiber, Fritz 19
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 18
*Tolkien, J.R.R. 17+1=18 *
Weinbaum, Stanley 8
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 20

Samwise > Tarzan, any day of the week.


----------



## Ed Laprade (Sep 2, 2018)

Bellairs, John 13
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 20 +1 = 21
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 19
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 8
Leiber, Fritz 19
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 18
Tolkien, J.R.R. 18 -2 = 16 
Weinbaum, Stanley 8
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 20


----------



## tglassy (Sep 2, 2018)

I will likely pick up a few of these authors in the future, since they've been pointed out to me.


----------



## werecorpse (Sep 2, 2018)

Bellairs, John 13
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 21
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 19
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 8-2=6
Leiber, Fritz 19
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 18
Tolkien, J.R.R.  16 +1=17
Weinbaum, Stanley 8
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 20


----------



## Harzel (Sep 3, 2018)

Bellairs, John 13
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 21
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 19
Dunsany, Lord 19
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 4
Leiber, Fritz 19
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 18
Tolkien, J.R.R.  18
Weinbaum, Stanley 8
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 20


----------



## Harzel (Sep 3, 2018)

Maybe we should just agree [-]Birthright[/-] Ernie Bushmiller is going to win and call it a day.


----------



## StormbringerAUS (Sep 3, 2018)

Harzel said:


> Bellairs, John 13
> Burroughs, Edgar Rice 21
> Carter, Lin 16
> de Camp & Pratt 19 - 2 = 17
> ...


----------



## chrisrtld (Sep 3, 2018)

Harzel said:


> Bellairs, John 13
> Burroughs, Edgar Rice 21
> Carter, Lin 16
> de Camp & Pratt 15
> ...


----------



## Invisible Stalker (Sep 3, 2018)

Bellairs, John 13
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 21
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 15
Dunsany, Lord 19
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 4
Leiber, Fritz 19
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 18
Tolkien, J.R.R. 21
Weinbaum, Stanley 8
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 18


----------



## Bradley Hindman (Sep 3, 2018)

Invisible Stalker said:


> Tolkien, J.R.R. 21
> Zelazny, Roger 18






Bellairs, John 13
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 21
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 15
Dunsany, Lord 19
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 4
Leiber, Fritz 19
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 18
*Tolkien, J.R.R. 21 - 2 = 19*
Weinbaum, Stanley 8
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
*Zelazny, Roger 18 + 1 = 19
*
Invisible Stalker and I seem to be diametrically opposed when you compare our voting records.

- Visible Stalker


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Sep 3, 2018)

jeremypowell said:


> Most talented toddler in all of literature!




As I said in my original post, the dates are for when they where published, not birth and death. Reading up on Stanley Weinbaum, his story is sad. He published a story that was at the time highly acclaimed, then died of cancer shortly after.

I'm not sure what he has to do with D&D though - his story was science fiction, not fantasy.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Sep 3, 2018)

Bellairs, John 13
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 21
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 15
Dunsany, Lord 19
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 4
Leiber, Fritz 19
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 18
Tolkien, J.R.R. 17 - time people read something else
Weinbaum, Stanley 8
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 20 - best of those left alive. Not as good as Moorcock though. Moorcock is the only one who is still alive in RL though, so I guess that makes him the real winner!


----------



## happyhermit (Sep 3, 2018)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Bellairs, John 13
> Burroughs, Edgar Rice 21
> Carter, Lin 16
> de Camp & Pratt 15
> ...


----------



## Lanefan (Sep 3, 2018)

Bellairs, John 13
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 21
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 15
Dunsany, Lord 19
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 4
Leiber, Fritz 19
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 16
Tolkien, J.R.R. 19
Weinbaum, Stanley 6
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 20

That Tolkein, even after this upvote, is still only tied for third-highest is a complete travesty.  The only battle here should be for who winds up as his last remaining challenger, with him comfortably ahead by 20 or 30 or 40 points.

And my downvote tonight goes to yet another of these names I've never heard of...


----------



## Tallifer (Sep 3, 2018)

Bellairs, John 13
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 21
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 15
Dunsany, Lord 19
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 4
Leiber, Fritz 19
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 16
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 16
Tolkien, J.R.R. 20
Weinbaum, Stanley 6
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 18


----------



## GreyLord (Sep 3, 2018)

Bellairs, John 13
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 21
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 15
Dunsany, Lord 19
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 4
Leiber, Fritz 20
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 16
Tolkien, J.R.R. 20
Weinbaum, Stanley 6
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 18


----------



## rczarnec (Sep 3, 2018)

Bellairs, John 13
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 21
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 15
Dunsany, Lord 19
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 4
Leiber, Fritz 20
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 16
Tolkien, J.R.R. 18
Weinbaum, Stanley 6
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 19


----------



## tglassy (Sep 3, 2018)

Bellairs, John 13
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 19
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 15
Dunsany, Lord 19
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 4
Leiber, Fritz 20
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 16
Tolkien, J.R.R. 19
Weinbaum, Stanley 6
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 19


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Sep 3, 2018)

Lanefan said:


> And my downvote tonight goes to yet another of these names I've never heard of...




In the parallel universe where he didn't die of cancer aged 33 Stanley Weinbaum wrote the greatest fantasy epic of all time.


----------



## Maxperson (Sep 3, 2018)

Bellairs, John 13
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 19
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 15
Dunsany, Lord 19
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 2
Leiber, Fritz 20
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 16
Tolkien, J.R.R. 20
Weinbaum, Stanley 6
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 19


----------



## lowkey13 (Sep 3, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


----------



## Parmandur (Sep 3, 2018)

Bellairs, John 13
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 19
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 15
Dunsany, Lord 19
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 2
Leiber, Fritz 20
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 16
Tolkien, J.R.R. 19
Weinbaum, Stanley 6
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 18


----------



## Yardiff (Sep 3, 2018)

Bellairs, John 13
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 19
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 15
Dunsany, Lord 19
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 2
Leiber, Fritz 20
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 16
Tolkien, J.R.R. 19-2=17
Weinbaum, Stanley 6
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 18+1=19


----------



## OB1 (Sep 3, 2018)

Bellairs, John 13
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 19
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 15
Dunsany, Lord 19
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 2
Leiber, Fritz 20
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 17
Tolkien, J.R.R. 15
Weinbaum, Stanley 6
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 19


----------



## Prakriti (Sep 3, 2018)

Bellairs, John 13
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 19
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 15
Dunsany, Lord 19
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 2
Leiber, Fritz 20
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 17
Tolkien, J.R.R. 16
Weinbaum, Stanley 6
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 17


----------



## Rydac (Sep 3, 2018)

Bellairs, John 13
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 19
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 15
Dunsany, Lord 19
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 2
Leiber, Fritz 20
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 15
Tolkien, J.R.R. 16
Weinbaum, Stanley 6
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 18


----------



## TiwazTyrsfist (Sep 3, 2018)

Bellairs, John 13
*Burroughs, Edgar Rice 20*
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 15
Dunsany, Lord 19
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 2
Leiber, Fritz 20
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 15
*Tolkien, J.R.R. 14*
Weinbaum, Stanley 6
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 18


----------



## Bradley Hindman (Sep 3, 2018)

Bellairs, John 13
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 20
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 15
Dunsany, Lord 19
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 2
Leiber, Fritz 20
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 15
*Tolkien, J.R.R. 14 -2 = 12*
Weinbaum, Stanley 6
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
*Zelazny, Roger 18 + 1 = 19*


----------



## Lord Mhoram (Sep 3, 2018)

Bellairs, John 13
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 20
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 15
Dunsany, Lord 19
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 2
Leiber, Fritz 18
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 15
Tolkien, J.R.R. 12
Weinbaum, Stanley 6
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 20


----------



## CleverNickName (Sep 3, 2018)

Bellairs, John 13
*Burroughs, Edgar Rice 20-2=18*
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 15
Dunsany, Lord 19
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 2
Leiber, Fritz 18
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 15
*Tolkien, J.R.R. 12+1=13* Reject the propaganda, reject the hate
Weinbaum, Stanley 6
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 20


----------



## Ed Laprade (Sep 3, 2018)

Bellairs, John 13
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 18 +1 = 19
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 15
Dunsany, Lord 19
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 2
Leiber, Fritz 18
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 15
Tolkien, J.R.R. 13 -2 = 11. Reject the propaganda. ? What propaganda? He was Mr. Boring.
Weinbaum, Stanley 6
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 20


----------



## Sacrosanct (Sep 3, 2018)

Bellairs, John 13
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 19
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 15
Dunsany, Lord 19
Fox, Gardner 19
Lanier, Sterling 2
Leiber, Fritz 19
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 15
Tolkien, J.R.R. 9
Weinbaum, Stanley 6
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 20

At first I voted down Tolkien because I like other authors better. Then after reading responses, it has less to do with him, and more to do with some of his fans who feel the need to insult anyone who doesn’t like the same things they do. Sorry Mr. Tolkien, but some of your fans are insufferable.


----------



## tglassy (Sep 3, 2018)

Care to site your sources there?  Cause the only insults I’ve seen have been directed at Tolkien fans.


----------



## Sacrosanct (Sep 3, 2018)

You, for one. Calling anyone who down voted Tolkien a hater (because they couldn’t possibly have any other reason) certainly isn’t a compliment. I found that comment especially eye roll worthy when you admitted you hadn’t even read any of the other authors.


----------



## Tyler Do'Urden (Sep 3, 2018)

Bellairs, John 13
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 19
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 15
Dunsany, Lord 19
Fox, Gardner 17
Lanier, Sterling 2
Leiber, Fritz 19
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 15
Tolkien, J.R.R. 10 I DISTINCTLY ASKED FOR THE OPPOSITE OF THIS
Weinbaum, Stanley 6
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 20


----------



## Blue (Sep 3, 2018)

Bellairs, John 13
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 19
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 15
Dunsany, Lord 17
Fox, Gardner 17
Lanier, Sterling 2
Leiber, Fritz 19
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 15
Tolkien, J.R.R. 11
Weinbaum, Stanley 6
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 20


----------



## werecorpse (Sep 4, 2018)

Bellairs, John 13
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 19
Carter, Lin 16
de Camp & Pratt 15
Dunsany, Lord 17
Fox, Gardner 17
Lanier, Sterling 2-2=0
Leiber, Fritz 19
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 15
Tolkien, J.R.R. 11+1=12
Weinbaum, Stanley 6
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 20

Yep some fans have strong opinions and they can rub the wrong way. Don’t get too invested in this vote it’s a self evidently NOT a way of determining who is most popular or whatever - just the one who survives. If you want to set up a most popular poll I’m sure you could do it. In this being popular is like wearing a target in your back. The popular options get hammered because someone is sick of them. 

(Edit: or more often sick of their fans and conflates the author with the fans)

It’s the system.


----------



## StormbringerAUS (Sep 4, 2018)

*Bad typing fixed*

Bellairs, John 13
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 19
Carter, Lin 16 - 2 = 14
de Camp & Pratt 15
Dunsany, Lord 17
Fox, Gardner 17
Leiber, Fritz 19
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 15
Tolkien, J.R.R. 12 + 1 = 13
Weinbaum, Stanley 6
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 20



werecorpse said:


> Yep some fans have strong opinions and they can rub the wrong way. Don’t get too invested in this vote it’s a self evidently NOT a way of determining who is most popular or whatever - just the one who survives. If you want to set up a most popular poll I’m sure you could do it. In this being popular is like wearing a target in your back. The popular options get hammered because someone is sick of them.
> 
> (Edit: or more often sick of their fans and conflates the author with the fans)
> 
> It’s the system.




Yes it is just the system and it is just an opinion and everyone is entitled to them.

But the rhetoric and use of words like hate against someone who just happens to have a different view than yours (and in this case its just which author you like) is ridiculous, though sadly this is now just a reflection of the world we currently live in, 'if you disagree with me then you are a traitor, a deviant whatever else' this is a truly poor state of affairs and does it really need to extend to this group and all the things we have in common.   

It just makes me sad.


----------



## Invisible Stalker (Sep 4, 2018)

Bellairs, John 13
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 19
Carter, Lin 14
de Camp & Pratt 15
Dunsany, Lord 17
Fox, Gardner 17
Leiber, Fritz 19
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 15
Tolkien, J.R.R. 14
Weinbaum, Stanley 6
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 18


----------



## werecorpse (Sep 4, 2018)

Sure I get that. But it’s fan hate dont take it too seriously is all I’m saying.

I live in a two sports team town (Australian Rules Football) and many (not all) people who support team A say that they hate team B. It’s a fan thing. Don’t take it too seriously imo.

I support one team and dislike others (often ones who have been more successful than my team. Jealousy? ). I don’t hate any other teams but my dislike can be significant. Some of my firiends say they hate the team I support - sucks to be them, we’ve had a agood year so far this year


----------



## werecorpse (Sep 4, 2018)

Also those who want Tolkien to make it to the last few why not pick off the low numbers. Thin the herd as it were.


----------



## Harzel (Sep 4, 2018)

werecorpse said:


> Also those who want Tolkien to make it to the last few why not pick off the low numbers. Thin the herd as it were.




I've been trying, but I don't seem to have much company.


----------



## Harzel (Sep 4, 2018)

Bellairs, John 13
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 19
Carter, Lin 14
de Camp & Pratt 15
Dunsany, Lord 17
Fox, Gardner 15
Leiber, Fritz 19
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 15
Tolkien, J.R.R. 15
Weinbaum, Stanley 6
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 18


----------



## Harzel (Sep 4, 2018)

I don't support name-calling, or divisiveness, or taking Survivor threads too seriously.  But it is my sense based on some of the commentary that at least *some *of the downvoting of Tolkien is driven by the perception that some other people like him 'too much'.  I admit to having done my share of eye rolling at (what seemed to me) excessive expressions of fan enthusiasm for various cultural phenomena, but in the end trying to puncture someone else's balloon because they're having too much fun is, I think, a little sketchy.  Although all this and more is within the rules for Survivor threads.  So I guess we can pat ourselves on the back for being inclusive.


----------



## bid (Sep 4, 2018)

Bellairs, John 13
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 19
Carter, Lin 14
de Camp & Pratt 15
Dunsany, Lord 17
Fox, Gardner 15
Leiber, Fritz 19
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 15
Tolkien, J.R.R. 15
Weinbaum, Stanley 4
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 19

I wish people would love more than the last movie. There's quite of few of the current survivors that are fun to read.


----------



## squibbles (Sep 4, 2018)

Bellairs, John 13
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 19
Carter, Lin 14
de Camp & Pratt 15
Dunsany, Lord 17
Fox, Gardner 15
Leiber, Fritz 19+1=20
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 15
Tolkien, J.R.R. 15-2=13
Weinbaum, Stanley 4
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 19


----------



## squibbles (Sep 4, 2018)

Harzel said:


> I don't support name-calling, or divisiveness, or taking Survivor threads too seriously.  But it is my sense based on some of the commentary that at least *some *of the downvoting of Tolkien is driven by the perception that some other people like him 'too much'.  I admit to having done my share of eye rolling at (what seemed to me) excessive expressions of fan enthusiasm for various cultural phenomena, but in the end trying to puncture someone else's balloon because they're having too much fun is, I think, a little sketchy.  Although all this and more is within the rules for Survivor threads.  So I guess we can pat ourselves on the back for being inclusive.




I'm downvoting Tolkien because Gary Gygax consistently (militantly?) argued that D&D's foundational inspiration came from other sources. D&D borrows a lot from Tolkien, but I think the idea that 'killing monsters and looting their gold is a path to personal advancement and world influence' (as codified in every edition of D&D's rules) is pretty clearly at odds with Tolkien's views. D&D systems incentivize PCs to play out a picaresque not an epic struggle of good against evil, even though my table or yours may prefer the latter.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Sep 4, 2018)

Bellairs, John 13
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 20
Carter, Lin 14
de Camp & Pratt 15
Dunsany, Lord 17
Fox, Gardner 15
Leiber, Fritz 20
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 15
Tolkien, J.R.R. 11 - the professor hated the rabid fanaticism of some of his fans
Weinbaum, Stanley 4
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 19


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Sep 4, 2018)

Harzel said:


> I don't support name-calling, or divisiveness, or taking Survivor threads too seriously.  But it is my sense based on some of the commentary that at least *some *of the downvoting of Tolkien is driven by the perception that some other people like him 'too much'.




True in my case, and comments in this thread have convinced my that "liking Tolkien too much" is a problem.


----------



## Lanefan (Sep 4, 2018)

squibbles said:


> I'm downvoting Tolkien because Gary Gygax consistently (militantly?) argued that D&D's foundational inspiration came from other sources.



That's because he had to, as the Tolkein estate were (and still are) very protective of his IP.



> D&D borrows a lot from Tolkien, but I think the idea that 'killing monsters and looting their gold is a path to personal advancement and world influence' (as codified in every edition of D&D's rules) is pretty clearly at odds with Tolkien's views. D&D systems incentivize PCs to play out a picaresque not an epic struggle of good against evil, even though my table or yours may prefer the latter.



The difference between Tolkein's bits in D&D and most other authors' bits is that Tolkein's bits all had to have their edges filed off, so they're not as immediately recognizable.

That said, you're right about kill-monsters-and-take-their-loot as not exactly being the Tolkein style.


----------



## Lanefan (Sep 4, 2018)

Bellairs, John 13
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 20
Carter, Lin 14
de Camp & Pratt 15
Dunsany, Lord 17
Fox, Gardner 15
Leiber, Fritz 20
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 15
Tolkien, J.R.R. 12
Weinbaum, Stanley 2
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 19


----------



## Dausuul (Sep 4, 2018)

Bellairs, John 13
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 18 (downvoted)
Carter, Lin 14
de Camp & Pratt 15
Dunsany, Lord 17
Fox, Gardner 15
Leiber, Fritz 20
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 15
Tolkien, J.R.R. 12
Weinbaum, Stanley 2
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 20 (upvoted)


----------



## Dioltach (Sep 4, 2018)

Lanefan said:


> That said, you're right about kill-monsters-and-take-their-loot as not exactly being the Tolkein style.




Absolutely. Tolkien is much too classy to write a story about an old man telling a party to go on an adventure to kill the dragon and claim its gold.


----------



## tglassy (Sep 4, 2018)

Or about a group that happens upon a group of trolls, kills them, find their treasure and uses the random magical items they found there for the rest of the adventure.


----------



## Tallifer (Sep 4, 2018)

Bellairs, John 13
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 18
Carter, Lin 14
de Camp & Pratt 15
Dunsany, Lord 17
Fox, Gardner 15
Leiber, Fritz 20
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 15
Tolkien, J.R.R. 13
Weinbaum, Stanley 2
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 18


----------



## happyhermit (Sep 4, 2018)

> Bellairs, John 13
> Burroughs, Edgar Rice 18
> Carter, Lin 14
> de Camp & Pratt 15
> ...




Like others have alluded to, for me the D&D influence is at least as much about the Hobbit as it is LotR. It maps almost perfectly to a D&D adventure, in contrast to other authors on this list have nothing that comes nearly as close.


----------



## tglassy (Sep 4, 2018)

Bellairs, John 13
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 16
Carter, Lin 14
de Camp & Pratt 15
Dunsany, Lord 17
Fox, Gardner 15
Leiber, Fritz 20
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 13
Tolkien, J.R.R. 15
Weinbaum, Stanley 2
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 18


----------



## grimslade (Sep 4, 2018)

Tallifer said:


> Bellairs, John 13
> Burroughs, Edgar Rice 18
> Carter, Lin 14
> de Camp & Pratt 15
> ...




And we say goodbye to Stanley Weinbaum and his Martian Odyssey...


----------



## Bradley Hindman (Sep 4, 2018)

Bellairs, John 13
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 16
Carter, Lin 14
de Camp & Pratt 15
Dunsany, Lord 17
Fox, Gardner 15
Leiber, Fritz 21
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 13
*Tolkien, J.R.R. 15 - 2 = 13*
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
*Zelazny, Roger 18 + 1 = 19*


----------



## chrisrtld (Sep 4, 2018)

Bellairs, John 13
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 16
Carter, Lin 14
*de Camp & Pratt 13*
Dunsany, Lord 17
Fox, Gardner 15
Leiber, Fritz 21
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 13
*Tolkien, J.R.R. 14*
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 19


----------



## Maxperson (Sep 4, 2018)

Bellairs, John 13
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 16
Carter, Lin 14
de Camp & Pratt 11
Dunsany, Lord 17
Fox, Gardner 15
Leiber, Fritz 21
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 13
Tolkien, J.R.R. 15
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 19


----------



## lowkey13 (Sep 4, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


----------



## Maxperson (Sep 4, 2018)

Dioltach said:


> Absolutely. Tolkien is much too classy to write a story about an old man telling a party to go on an adventure to kill the dragon and claim its gold.




The dragon didn't have any gold.  The dwarves, elves and humans did, though.  They just had to kill the thief that took it.



tglassy said:


> Or about a group that happens upon a group of trolls, kills them, find their treasure and uses the random magical items they found there for the rest of the adventure.




The group happened upon the trolls, got caught, and were going to be eaten.  Good thing the DMPC showed up and saved the day.


----------



## Parmandur (Sep 4, 2018)

Bellairs, John 13
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 15
Carter, Lin 14
de Camp & Pratt 11
Dunsany, Lord 17
Fox, Gardner 15
Leiber, Fritz 21
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 13
Tolkien, J.R.R. 14
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 19


----------



## rczarnec (Sep 4, 2018)

Bellairs, John 13
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 16
Carter, Lin 14
de Camp & Pratt 11
Dunsany, Lord 17
Fox, Gardner 15
Leiber, Fritz 21
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 13
Tolkien, J.R.R. 12
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 19


----------



## Parmandur (Sep 4, 2018)

Paul Farquhar said:


> True in my case, and comments in this thread have convinced my that "liking Tolkien too much" is a problem.




Really, as stated previously, this thread is more proof how underrated Tolkien is as an author. Every down vote proves that hypothesis.


----------



## Maxperson (Sep 4, 2018)

squibbles said:


> I'm downvoting Tolkien because Gary Gygax consistently (militantly?) argued that D&D's foundational inspiration came from other sources. D&D borrows a lot from Tolkien, but I think the idea that 'killing monsters and looting their gold is a path to personal advancement and world influence' (as codified in every edition of D&D's rules) is pretty clearly at odds with Tolkien's views. D&D systems incentivize PCs to play out a picaresque not an epic struggle of good against evil, even though my table or yours may prefer the latter.




Seriously dude?  Chainmail, the foundation for D&D literally had Balrogs, Ents, elves, dwarves and Hobbits and you think Tolkien wasn't an inspiration for the foundation?  The fact that Tolkien's world wasn't about killing creatures for their loot isn't relevant to whether or not Tolkien was a huge inspiration.  Inspiration does not equate to mirroring exactly.  If it did, it wouldn't be inspiration, it would be plagiarism.


----------



## Blue (Sep 4, 2018)

Bellairs, John 11
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 16
Carter, Lin 14
de Camp & Pratt 11
Dunsany, Lord 17
Fox, Gardner 15
Leiber, Fritz 21
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 13
Tolkien, J.R.R. 12
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 20


----------



## Maxperson (Sep 4, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> Really, as stated previously, this thread is more proof how underrated Tolkien is as an author. Every down vote proves that hypothesis.




People misperceived the whole email thing and are now guilty of the thing they thought was happening.  They have banded together to downvote Tolkien, where nobody truly banded together to upvote him.  I find it ironic and amusing.


----------



## Parmandur (Sep 4, 2018)

Maxperson said:


> People misperceived the whole email thing and are now guilty of the thing they thought was happening.  They have banded together to downvote Tolkien, where nobody truly banded together to upvote him.  I find it ironic and amusing.




I know, right?


----------



## OB1 (Sep 4, 2018)

Bellairs, John 11
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 16
Carter, Lin 14
de Camp & Pratt 11
Dunsany, Lord 17
Fox, Gardner 15
Leiber, Fritz 21
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 14
Tolkien, J.R.R. 12
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 20

Don't know about anyone else, but I'm down voting Tolkien because two other people both targeted Margaret St. Clair because she was ranked higher than Tolkien at the time.  Before that I had been upvoting him (and though asked, did not become part of the fellowship).

Anyhow I realize that mentioning this strategy will likely result in Maragret getting knocked out in short order, but so be it, that's Survivor!


----------



## lowkey13 (Sep 4, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


----------



## Bradley Hindman (Sep 4, 2018)

Maxperson said:


> People misperceived the whole email thing and are now guilty of the thing they thought was happening.  They have banded together to downvote Tolkien, where nobody truly banded together to upvote him.  I find it ironic and amusing.




The vast majority of the votes have involved Tolkien whether it was an up or down vote.  I'm not going to count, because I don't wanna, but since we are on post 540, lets say that's 300 votes one way or the other for Tolkien.  Since down votes are -2 and upvotes are only +1, the fact that Tolkien is still in the 10 - 20 range indicates that there have been roughly 200 upvotes and 100 downvotes.  Seems to me that if anyone can be accused of banding together its the upvoters!  So nyah!

(I don't necessarily believe anyone has banded together in a formal voting block, its just that Tolkien is known by everyone so he gets a lot of attention).


----------



## lowkey13 (Sep 4, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


----------



## Sacrosanct (Sep 4, 2018)

Maxperson said:


> Seriously dude?  Chainmail, the foundation for D&D literally had Balrogs, Ents, elves, dwarves and Hobbits and you think Tolkien wasn't an inspiration for the foundation?  The fact that Tolkien's world wasn't about killing creatures for their loot isn't relevant to whether or not Tolkien was a huge inspiration.  Inspiration does not equate to mirroring exactly.  If it did, it wouldn't be inspiration, it would be plagiarism.




This is a strawman, and not what he/she is arguing.  I don't know how many times we need to have this discussion, and every time, people like to resort to strawmen to try to make their point.  Squibbles said that Gary consistently argued that D&D's _foundational _inspiration came from other sources.  That is true.  Gary has said that.  Gary never said that Tolkien _wasn't_ an inspiration, like what you're arguing. In fact, he said he was, primarily because that's what people were most familiar with and thus he wanted to give something to those gamers.  It's entirely possible for something to have an influence, even a big one, without being the _fundamental _influence.  Especially since we also know much of what Tolkien is credited with creating, he didn't.  We had a thread about this less than a year ago.  Tolkien pulled heavily from existing myth and folklore.  In fact, that was his _entire point_, to create a _unified _anglo saxon set of mythology by pulling all these bits and pieces from various sources together into one.  And since we know that Gary was well versed in mythology and folklore and fantasy literature that predated Tolkien, it's assured that he knew this as well.  Many things they pulled from the original source, but many people who only know Tolkien assume that Gary lifted it from Tolkien instead of the original source.


----------



## Sacrosanct (Sep 4, 2018)

Bellairs, John 11
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 16
Carter, Lin 14
de Camp & Pratt 11
Dunsany, Lord 17
Fox, Gardner 15
Leiber, Fritz 22
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 14
Tolkien, J.R.R. 8
Wellman, Manley Wade 16
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 20

We've clearly entered grudge match territory, so someone like Lin Carter will end up winning.  Now I know how a setting like Birthright ended up winning a previous survivor thread.


----------



## Ralif Redhammer (Sep 4, 2018)

Upvote on Tolkien, downvote on Manly Wade Wellman. Despite having the most hilarious name on the list, and his books being pretty good with their Appalachian horror/rural fantasy (and being relatively respectfully diverse), I just don't think they're that germane to D&D.

Bellairs, John 11
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 16
Carter, Lin 14
de Camp & Pratt 11
Dunsany, Lord 17
Fox, Gardner 15
Leiber, Fritz 22
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 14
Tolkien, J.R.R. 9
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 20


----------



## CleverNickName (Sep 4, 2018)

Bellairs, John 11
*Burroughs, Edgar Rice 16-2=14* He's good, but never better than Tolkien
Carter, Lin 14
de Camp & Pratt 11
Dunsany, Lord 17
Fox, Gardner 15
Leiber, Fritz 22
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 14
*Tolkien, J.R.R. 9+1=10*, obviously
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 20


----------



## CleverNickName (Sep 4, 2018)

Sacrosanct said:


> We've clearly entered grudge match territory, so someone like Lin Carter will end up winning.  Now I know how a setting like Birthright ended up winning a previous survivor thread.



Yup.  I've said it before--I'm surprised that Tolkien has lasted this long.  I know how these "survivor" threads usually shake out.


----------



## Gradine (Sep 4, 2018)

Bellairs, John 11
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 14
Carter, Lin 14
de Camp & Pratt 11
Dunsany, Lord 17
Fox, Gardner 15
Leiber, Fritz 20 - Probably the most responsible (out of those remaining) for the more toxic corners of gaming (though deliberately so than Howard).
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 14
Tolkien, J.R.R. 11 - While the statement "if we didn't have Tolkien, we wouldn't have D&D" may not be literally true, I am forced to admit that if _I_ didn't have Tolkien, _I_ wouldn't have D&D
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 20


----------



## Prakriti (Sep 4, 2018)

Bellairs, John 11
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 14
Carter, Lin 14
de Camp & Pratt 11
Dunsany, Lord 17
Fox, Gardner 15
Leiber, Fritz 20
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 14
Tolkien, J.R.R. 12
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 18


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Sep 4, 2018)

Maxperson said:


> Seriously dude?  Chainmail, the foundation for D&D literally had Balrogs, Ents, elves, dwarves and Hobbits and you think Tolkien wasn't an inspiration for the foundation?  The fact that Tolkien's world wasn't about killing creatures for their loot isn't relevant to whether or not Tolkien was a huge inspiration.  Inspiration does not equate to mirroring exactly.  If it did, it wouldn't be inspiration, it would be plagiarism.




Tolkien would kindly explain to you (in between puffs on his pipe) that this is unsurprising, given that so many stories draw on the same mythological roots. In particular, The Hobbit being based on part three of Beowulf, which lies at the root of all Anglo-Saxon literature.

Have you read Beowulf? Personally, I prefer Seamus Heaney's translation to Tolkien's more scholarly version.


----------



## Lord Mhoram (Sep 4, 2018)

Bellairs, John 11
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 14
Carter, Lin 14
de Camp & Pratt 11
Dunsany, Lord 17
Fox, Gardner 15
Leiber, Fritz 18
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 14
Tolkien, J.R.R. 13
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 18


----------



## Yardiff (Sep 4, 2018)

Bellairs, John 11
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 14+1=15
Carter, Lin 14
de Camp & Pratt 11
Dunsany, Lord 17
Fox, Gardner 15
Leiber, Fritz 18
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 14
Tolkien, J.R.R. 13-2=11
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 18


----------



## Imaro (Sep 4, 2018)

Bellairs, John 11
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 14
Carter, Lin 14
de Camp & Pratt 11
Dunsany, Lord 17
Fox, Gardner 15
Leiber, Fritz 18
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 14
[COLOR=#FF000]Tolkien, J.R.R. 9[/COLOR]
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 20


----------



## tglassy (Sep 4, 2018)

Every vote against Tolkien is a vote against Samwise Gamgee.

See?  You've made Samwise sad.  How could you make Samwise sad?


----------



## Ralif Redhammer (Sep 4, 2018)

As a big Tolkien fan and someone that has read many, many translations of Beowulf, I will say that Seamus Heaney’s translation is jaw-droppingly amazing. The language is gorgeous and kinetic, and as far as I’ve read, the best translation there is (now if we could only get an amazing movie version for a change).



Paul Farquhar said:


> Have you read Beowulf? Personally, I prefer Seamus Heaney's translation to Tolkien's more scholarly version.


----------



## Yardiff (Sep 4, 2018)

Bellairs, John 11
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 15
Carter, Lin 14
de Camp & Pratt 11
Dunsany, Lord 17
Fox, Gardner 15
Leiber, Fritz 18
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 14
Tolkien, J.R.R. 9
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 20



A dropped vote between 554 and 555.


----------



## Sacrosanct (Sep 4, 2018)

tglassy said:


> Every vote against Tolkien is a vote against Samwise Gamgee.
> 
> See?  You've made Samwise sad.  How could you make Samwise sad?




Conversely, every upvote for Tolkien is an upvote for Tom Bombadil, kidnapping forced marrying annoying guy he was.

"Hey dol! merry dol! ring a dong dillo! Ring a dong! hop along! fal lal the willow! Tom Bom, jolly Tom, Tom Bombadillo!"

On a side note, I'm betting many people who keep lauding the virtues of Tolkien aren't even pronouncing his name right


----------



## Bradley Hindman (Sep 4, 2018)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Have you read Beowulf? Personally, I prefer Seamus Heaney's translation to Tolkien's more scholarly version.




Thanks for the recommendation !  Its been quite a while since I read Beowulf (iff'n you don't count Crichton's Eaters of the Dead) and I am due for a reread.


----------



## Dioltach (Sep 4, 2018)

There's also Benjamin Bagby's recital of Beowulf in the original Old English. I saw him perform it live about 25 years ago, and luckily it's been released on CD since then. It really shows the power and beauty of Old English and alliterative poetry (which also comes through, to a slightly lesser extent, in Tolkien's Rhohirric poetry and songs).


----------



## Prakriti (Sep 4, 2018)

Considering RE Howard, Jack Vance, Poul Anderson, and HP Lovecraft were some of the first people to be knocked out, maybe we can just all agree that the final list should be read in reverse order.


----------



## TiwazTyrsfist (Sep 4, 2018)

Bellairs, John 11
*Burroughs, Edgar Rice 16*
Carter, Lin 14
de Camp & Pratt 11
Dunsany, Lord 17
Fox, Gardner 15
Leiber, Fritz 18
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 14
*Tolkien, J.R.R. 7*
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 20


----------



## Ed Laprade (Sep 4, 2018)

Bellairs, John 11
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 16 +1 = 17
Carter, Lin 14
de Camp & Pratt 11
Dunsany, Lord 17
Fox, Gardner 15
Leiber, Fritz 18
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 14
Tolkien, J.R.R. 7 -2 = 5
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 20


----------



## Hriston (Sep 4, 2018)

Bellairs, John 11
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 17
Carter, Lin 14
de Camp & Pratt 11
Dunsany, Lord 17
Fox, Gardner 15
Leiber, Fritz 18
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 14
Tolkien, J.R.R. 6
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 18


----------



## tglassy (Sep 4, 2018)

You are killing Smeagol a little more with every down vote!  Even Frodo took pity on him!


----------



## lowkey13 (Sep 4, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


----------



## Toledo (Sep 4, 2018)

Bellairs, John 11
 Burroughs, Edgar Rice 17
 Carter, Lin 14
 de Camp & Pratt 11
 Dunsany, Lord 17
 Fox, Gardner 15
 Leiber, Fritz 18
 Merritt, A. 18
 Offutt, Andrew J. 14
 Pratt, Fletcher 12
 St. Clair, Margaret 14
Tolkien, J.R.R. 6+1=7
 Wellman, Manley Wade 14
 Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 18-2=16


----------



## squibbles (Sep 4, 2018)

Maxperson said:


> Seriously dude?  Chainmail, the foundation for D&D literally had Balrogs, Ents, elves, dwarves and Hobbits and you think Tolkien wasn't an inspiration for the foundation?  The fact that Tolkien's world wasn't about killing creatures for their loot isn't relevant to whether or not Tolkien was a huge inspiration.  Inspiration does not equate to mirroring exactly.  If it did, it wouldn't be inspiration, it would be plagiarism.




Yeah, you're right about inspiration. That's why I noted that 'D&D borrows a lot from Tolkien'. The influence is clear; the Balor in the 5e Monster Manual has a sword and flaming whip just like LotR's Balrog.

Maybe I'm just being contrarian, but it seems to me like the Tolkien influences are all very surface level. They are a big part of the game's content, but the activities that PCs get up to and the motivations that PCs have for those activities are intended (by Gygax) to be a lot more like Cugel the Clever's than Bilbo and Frodo's.

That's not to say that Bilbo and Frodo don't do any dungeon crawling, they clearly do. The difference is that both hobbit characters end up in dungeons mostly by accident (the goblin tunnels, the wood elf dungeon, Moria), don't want to be in them, and flee from them at the earliest opportunity.



Sacrosanct said:


> Squibbles said that Gary consistently argued that D&D's _foundational _inspiration came from other sources.  That is true.  Gary has said that.  Gary never said that Tolkien _wasn't_ an inspiration




This guy gets me! It's always nice to have one's intended meaning correctly understood.


----------



## Rydac (Sep 4, 2018)

Bellairs, John 11
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 17
Carter, Lin 14
de Camp & Pratt 11
Dunsany, Lord 17
Fox, Gardner 13
Leiber, Fritz 18
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 14
Tolkien, J.R.R. 6+1=7
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 17


----------



## squibbles (Sep 4, 2018)

Bellairs, John 11
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 17
Carter, Lin 14
de Camp & Pratt 11
Dunsany, Lord 17
Fox, Gardner 13
Leiber, Fritz 18+1=19
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 14
Tolkien, J.R.R. 7-2=5
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 17



Gradine said:


> Leiber, Fritz - Probably the most responsible (out of those remaining) for the more toxic corners of gaming (though deliberately so than Howard).




Mind explaining a bit? Having read his first collection of stories (I can't remember if i read any others), it didn't seem particularly toxic.


----------



## Gradine (Sep 4, 2018)

squibbles said:


> Mind explaining a bit? Having read his first collection of stories (I can't remember if i read any others), it didn't seem particularly toxic.




It's less the works themselves (my vague memories of them being exemplary if not exactly subversive takes on the genre, fitting in the sense that he basically (co-)invented it), and more that the style of play exemplified by the S&S genre in general (the mercenary-at-best, murderhobo-at-worst "hero") tends to bring out the worst in the worst sorts of people. It's less my disdain for Leiber as an author and more for the Sword & Sorcery genre in specific (or at the very least, what S&S _means_ to a certain subset of player).

My general take (and approach in this thread) has been that we may not have had such a hardcore base of virulently toxic individuals resisting any changes to make the game more inclusive beyond straight white dudes bemoaning the loss of chainmail bikinis had Gygax been less inspired by Howard/Leiber et. al. and more inspired by Tolkien. 

That may be inaccurate, but then this is a Survivor thread and not a peer reviewed journal, so it's good enough for me


----------



## Invisible Stalker (Sep 4, 2018)

Bellairs, John 11
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 17
Carter, Lin 14
de Camp & Pratt 9
Dunsany, Lord 17
Fox, Gardner 13
Leiber, Fritz 19
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 14
Tolkien, J.R.R. 6
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 17


----------



## Nikosandros (Sep 4, 2018)

Bellairs, John 11
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 17
Carter, Lin 14
de Camp & Pratt 7
Dunsany, Lord 17
Fox, Gardner 13
Leiber, Fritz 19
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 14
Tolkien, J.R.R. 7
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 17


----------



## werecorpse (Sep 5, 2018)

Bellairs, John 11
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 17
Carter, Lin 14
de Camp & Pratt 7
Dunsany, Lord 17
Fox, Gardner 13-2=11
Leiber, Fritz 19
Merritt, A. 18
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 14
Tolkien, J.R.R. 7+1=8
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 17


----------



## Tyler Do'Urden (Sep 5, 2018)

Bellairs, John 11
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 17
Carter, Lin 14
de Camp & Pratt 7
Dunsany, Lord 17
Fox, Gardner 11
Leiber, Fritz 19
Merritt, A. 16
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 14
Tolkien, J.R.R. 9 *“Let this be the hour when we draw swords together. Fell deeds awake. Now for wrath, now for ruin, and the red dawn. Forth, Tolkienists!”*
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 17


----------



## Maxperson (Sep 5, 2018)

lowkey13 said:


> No one? No one has been upvoting Tolkien?




Voting for?  Sure.  No* COLLUSION* at all, though.  Everyone doing so was doing so before the emails and nothing changed afterwards.  It was just some guys who were already voting for Tolkien having fun at playing at being a Fellowship.  A bunch of guys got together to downvote Tolkien afterwards, though.  That's the irony and amusement I speak of.


----------



## Maxperson (Sep 5, 2018)

Sacrosanct said:


> This is a strawman, and not what he/she is arguing.  I don't know how many times we need to have this discussion, and every time, people like to resort to strawmen to try to make their point.  Squibbles said that Gary consistently argued that D&D's _foundational _inspiration came from other sources.  That is true.  Gary has said that.  Gary never said that Tolkien _wasn't_ an inspiration, like what you're arguing.




Um, not only is what I said not a Strawman, you just demonstrated that you have no clue what it was that I said.  I never argued that Gary said Tolkien wasn't an inspiration.  I've never seen a Gary comment one way or the other.



> In fact, he said he was, primarily because that's what people were most familiar with and thus he wanted to give something to those gamers.  It's entirely possible for something to have an influence, even a big one, without being the _fundamental _influence.  Especially since we also know much of what Tolkien is credited with creating, he didn't.  We had a thread about this less than a year ago.  Tolkien pulled heavily from existing myth and folklore.  In fact, that was his _entire point_, to create a _unified _anglo saxon set of mythology by pulling all these bits and pieces from various sources together into one.  And since we know that Gary was well versed in mythology and folklore and fantasy literature that predated Tolkien, it's assured that he knew this as well.  Many things they pulled from the original source, but many people who only know Tolkien assume that Gary lifted it from Tolkien instead of the original source.




This would hold weight, IF Gary hadn't mentioned Tolkien specifically by name in Chainmail three times, and referenced multiple other Tolkien specific names like Hobbits and Balrogs, as well as other things from Tolkien's world.   Heck, he even said "Most of the fantastic battles related in novels more closely resemble medieval warfare than they do earlier or later forms of combat. Because of this we are including a brief set of rules which will allow the medieval miniatures wargamer to add a new facet to his hobby,* and either refight the epic struggles related by J.R.R. Tolkien*, Robert E. Howard, and other fantasy writers; or you can devise your own "world", and conduct fantastic campaigns and conflicts based on it."

Recreating Tolkien's world to conduct fantastic campaigns was part of Chainmail.


----------



## Maxperson (Sep 5, 2018)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Tolkien would kindly explain to you (in between puffs on his pipe) that this is unsurprising, given that so many stories draw on the same mythological roots. In particular, The Hobbit being based on part three of Beowulf, which lies at the root of all Anglo-Saxon literature.
> 
> Have you read Beowulf? Personally, I prefer Seamus Heaney's translation to Tolkien's more scholarly version.




And yet Beowulf isn't mentioned once, where Tolkien is mentioned three times and Hobbits, Balrogs, etc. are mentioned.


----------



## Yardiff (Sep 5, 2018)

Maxperson said:


> Voting for?  Sure.  No* COLLUSION* at all, though.  Everyone doing so was doing so before the emails and nothing changed afterwards.  It was just some guys who were already voting for Tolkien having fun at playing at being a Fellowship.  A bunch of guys got together to downvote Tolkien afterwards, though.  That's the irony and amusement I speak of.




Other than this Fellowship you speak of, you have proof that a bunch of people 'got together' to down vote a particular author?


----------



## Maxperson (Sep 5, 2018)

Yardiff said:


> Other than this Fellowship you speak of, you have proof that a bunch of people 'got together' to down vote a particular author?




Circumstantial, sure.  Tolkien was rip roaring until the private message about the Fellowship was made public.  Then all of a sudden Tolkien was the #1 target.


----------



## StormbringerAUS (Sep 5, 2018)

Tyler Do'Urden said:


> Bellairs, John 11
> Burroughs, Edgar Rice 17
> Carter, Lin 14
> de Camp & Pratt 7
> ...


----------



## CleverNickName (Sep 5, 2018)

Maxperson said:


> Circumstantial, sure.  Tolkien was rip roaring until the private message about the Fellowship was made public.  Then all of a sudden Tolkien was the #1 target.



I think it's a testament to Tolkien's popularity that he's still in the running even after almost 600 posts, even after a continued barrage of coordinated and concentrated downvotes.

Ah well.  It's a self-correcting problem.  I'm sure Tolkien will soon be voted out of the popularity contest.  And then whoever does win this popularity contest will be _so_ popular that hardly anyone will have heard of them.  It's the same way we decide which indie rock bands are "good."


----------



## Harzel (Sep 5, 2018)

Paul Farquhar said:


> True in my case, and comments in this thread have convinced my that "liking Tolkien too much" is a problem.




A 'problem' is usually something that has some deleterious effect.
But anyway, have some XP for your honesty.


----------



## Harzel (Sep 5, 2018)

CleverNickName said:


> Bellairs, John 11
> *Burroughs, Edgar Rice 16-2=14* He's good, but never better than Tolkien
> Carter, Lin 14
> de Camp & Pratt 11
> ...




And also not better than Gardner Fox?


----------



## Harzel (Sep 5, 2018)

Bellairs, John 11
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 17
Carter, Lin 14
de Camp & Pratt 7
Dunsany, Lord 17
Fox, Gardner 9
Leiber, Fritz 17
Merritt, A. 16
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 14
Tolkien, J.R.R. 11
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 17


----------



## Parmandur (Sep 5, 2018)

Bellairs, John 11
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 17
Carter, Lin 14
de Camp & Pratt 7
Dunsany, Lord 17
Fox, Gardner 7
Leiber, Fritz 17
Merritt, A. 16
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 14
Tolkien, J.R.R. 12
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 17


----------



## squibbles (Sep 5, 2018)

CleverNickName said:


> I think it's a testament to Tolkien's popularity that he's still in the running even after almost 600 posts, even after a continued barrage of coordinated and concentrated downvotes.




Yeah, good point.

I have to say, it would be pretty impressive if, despite my best efforts, my boy John Ronald managed to fight his way to the end.


----------



## happyhermit (Sep 5, 2018)

> Bellairs, John 11
> Burroughs, Edgar Rice 17
> Carter, Lin 14
> de Camp & Pratt 7
> ...




St. Clair! Why must you taunt me? Even if I didn't have issues with your writing, it's influence on D&D... just isn't all that much.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Sep 5, 2018)

Harzel said:


> A 'problem' is usually something that has some deleterious effect.
> But anyway, have some XP for your honesty.




deleterious effects:

1) not reading other authors;
2) failing to understand what Tolkien was actually doing with Lord of the Rings.


Tolkien would be horrified with anyone who wasn't familiar with Beowulf.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Sep 5, 2018)

Bellairs, John 11
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 18
Carter, Lin 14
de Camp & Pratt 7
Dunsany, Lord 17
Fox, Gardner 7
Leiber, Fritz 17
Merritt, A. 16
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 14
Tolkien, J.R.R. 10
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 17


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Sep 5, 2018)

Harzel said:


> And also not better than Gardner Fox?




Gardner Fox wrote for Batman!


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Sep 5, 2018)

Maxperson said:


> And yet Beowulf isn't mentioned once, where Tolkien is mentioned three times and Hobbits, Balrogs, etc. are mentioned.




And adventurer arrives in a settlement plagued by a monster. The hero kills the monster and is rewarded by the people of the settlement. However, that leads to a conflict with another, more powerful monster...

Sound familiar? Beowulf is pretty much every D&D player character ever.

It would be difficult to include the author of Beowulf in a list of authors, since no one knows who wrote it! The anaemic Rosemary Sutcliffe version would probably have been the only version available to Gygax, assuming he didn't read Old English. The Tolkien translation was lost, and Heaney's was written after 1979.

Like everyone, he would have been exposed to the story without being aware of it though. For example, one of the stories in Kipling's Jungle Book is a retelling of the first two parts of Beowulf, with Beowulf recast as a mongoose, and Grendel as a cobra. Kipling studied Beowulf at school, but he did have a rather expensive education.


----------



## Harzel (Sep 5, 2018)

Correction for @_*happyhermit*_'s missed votes.

Bellairs, John 11
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 18
Carter, Lin 14
de Camp & Pratt 7
Dunsany, Lord 17
Fox, Gardner 7
Leiber, Fritz 17
Merritt, A. 16
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 12
Tolkien, J.R.R. 11
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 17


----------



## Harzel (Sep 5, 2018)

Bellairs, John 11
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 18
Carter, Lin 14
de Camp & Pratt 7
Dunsany, Lord 17
Fox, Gardner 5
Leiber, Fritz 17
Merritt, A. 16
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 12
Tolkien, J.R.R. 12
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 17


----------



## Harzel (Sep 5, 2018)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Gardner Fox wrote for Batman!




Point taken.  I was conflating 'goodness' with 'relevance to D&D'.


----------



## chrisrtld (Sep 5, 2018)

Bellairs, John 11
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 18
Carter, Lin 14
de Camp & Pratt 7
Dunsany, Lord 17
Fox, Gardner 3
Leiber, Fritz 17
Merritt, A. 16
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 12
Tolkien, J.R.R. 13
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 18
Zelazny, Roger 17


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Sep 5, 2018)

Harzel said:


> Point taken.  I was conflating 'goodness' with 'relevance to D&D'.




Gardner Fox's inclusion is interesting, as the only predominantly comic-book writer on the list. The "Graphic Novel" was not considered a valid literary form in 1979.


Talking of which, I have just noticed the absence of Neil Gaiman from the 2014 Appendix E.


----------



## tglassy (Sep 5, 2018)

chrisrtld said:


> Bellairs, John 11
> Burroughs, Edgar Rice 18
> Carter, Lin 14
> de Camp & Pratt 7
> ...


----------



## Tallifer (Sep 5, 2018)

Bellairs, John 11
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 18
Carter, Lin 14
de Camp & Pratt 7
Dunsany, Lord 17
Fox, Gardner 3
Leiber, Fritz 17
Merritt, A. 16
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 12
Tolkien, J.R.R. 15
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 16
Zelazny, Roger 16


----------



## tglassy (Sep 5, 2018)

Paul Farquhar said:


> deleterious effects:
> 
> 1) not reading other authors;
> 2) failing to understand what Tolkien was actually doing with Lord of the Rings.
> ...




1) I’ve read many other authors. I read at least a dozen, sometimes upwards of two dozen, books a year for the last fifteen years, most in the fantasy genre, though not all.   I just never read THESE authors. So that definition doesn’t really apply. 

2) it doesn’t matter what an author is “trying” to do with a work. What matters is what the reader takes away. If the author is “trying” to do something with a work, and the reader takes away something different, it’s the author who failed, not the reader. I know. I’m an author. 

Therefore, just because readers don’t know what the author was “trying” to do, doesn’t make it a “deleterious effect”, so your second definition doesn’t apply. 

As no deleterious effect is present, no problem is present.


----------



## Bradley Hindman (Sep 5, 2018)

Bellairs, John 11
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 18
Carter, Lin 14
de Camp & Pratt 7
Dunsany, Lord 17
Fox, Gardner 3
Leiber, Fritz 17
Merritt, A. 16
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 12
*Tolkien, J.R.R. 15 - 2 = 13*
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 16
*Zelazny, Roger 16 + 1 = 17*


----------



## Maxperson (Sep 5, 2018)

Paul Farquhar said:


> And adventurer arrives in a settlement plagued by a monster. The hero kills the monster and is rewarded by the people of the settlement. However, that leads to a conflict with another, more powerful monster...
> 
> Sound familiar? Beowulf is pretty much every D&D player character ever.




It sounds like multiple old stories, really.  Only it doesn't sound like much of D&D.  Very often you get rewarded by the settlement(or even not) and there is no more powerful monster.  Very often there isn't even a monster for the adventure.  Sometimes you go to another plane of existence.  Sometimes you have a naval or completely underwater adventure.  D&D isn't much like Beowulf at all.  It sounds like you're grasping at straws to try and force D&D to be Beowulf just because occasionally it matches that story.

There are no new stories, so pretty much everything you come up with is going to sounds like dozens of stories that have been told before.  That doesn't make those old stories inspiration.  Beowulf isn't mentioned, where Tolkien is.  If you can't show me some explicit proof, then I'm just not going to buy the tenuous(at best) connection that you've come up with.



> It would be difficult to include the author of Beowulf in a list of authors, since no one knows who wrote it! The anaemic Rosemary Sutcliffe version would probably have been the only version available to Gygax, assuming he didn't read Old English. The Tolkien translation was lost, and Heaney's was written after 1979.




Or, you know, he could just have mentioned Beowulf as being an inspiration.  He didn't.  He does name Tolkien multiple times, though.  And use more than one name unique to Tolkien.


----------



## Maxperson (Sep 5, 2018)

Bellairs, John 11
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 18
Carter, Lin 14
de Camp & Pratt 7
Dunsany, Lord 17
Fox, Gardner 1
Leiber, Fritz 17
Merritt, A. 16
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 12
Tolkien, J.R.R. 14
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 16
Zelazny, Roger 17


----------



## squibbles (Sep 5, 2018)

Bellairs, John 11
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 18
Carter, Lin 14
de Camp & Pratt 7
Dunsany, Lord 17
Fox, Gardner 1
Leiber, Fritz 17+1=18
Merritt, A. 16
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 12
Tolkien, J.R.R. 14-2=12
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 16
Zelazny, Roger 17


----------



## lowkey13 (Sep 5, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


----------



## rczarnec (Sep 5, 2018)

Bellairs, John 9
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 18
Carter, Lin 14
de Camp & Pratt 7
Dunsany, Lord 17
Fox, Gardner 1
Leiber, Fritz 18
Merritt, A. 16
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 12
Tolkien, J.R.R. 10
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 16
Zelazny, Roger 19


----------



## lowkey13 (Sep 5, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


----------



## Grognerd (Sep 5, 2018)

Never done one of these, but I'm in!

Bellairs, John 9
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 19
Carter, Lin 14
de Camp & Pratt 7
Dunsany, Lord 17
Fox, Gardner 1
Leiber, Fritz 18
Merritt, A. 16
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 12
Tolkien, J.R.R. 10
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 16
Zelazny, Roger 17

Because I've always thought Zelazny was overrated (and a bit pretentious), and ERB brought us John Carter (the _real_ John Carter of the books, not the horrid movie version(s))!


----------



## Eltab (Sep 5, 2018)

Bellairs, John 9
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 19
Carter, Lin 14
de Camp & Pratt 7
Dunsany, Lord 17
*Fox, Gardner 1 - 2 = -1*  Wow, I take a week off, and not much progress thinning down this list.  Here's some help.
Leiber, Fritz 18
Merritt, A. 16
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 12
*Tolkien, J.R.R. 10 + 1 = 11*
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 16
Zelazny, Roger 17


----------



## lowkey13 (Sep 5, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


----------



## OB1 (Sep 5, 2018)

Bellairs, John 9
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 19
Carter, Lin 14
de Camp & Pratt 7
Dunsany, Lord 17
Leiber, Fritz 18
Merritt, A. 16
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 13
Tolkien, J.R.R. 9
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 16
Zelazny, Roger 17


----------



## Hriston (Sep 5, 2018)

Bellairs, John 9
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 17
Carter, Lin 14
de Camp & Pratt 7
Dunsany, Lord 17
Leiber, Fritz 18
Merritt, A. 16
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 13
Tolkien, J.R.R. 10
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 16
Zelazny, Roger 17


----------



## happyhermit (Sep 5, 2018)

OB1 said:


> ...




OB1, I feel bad about persistently knocking the author you are upvoting, if you tell me why I'm wrong I will reconsider (though I am fairly set against). Do you see influence on D&D or do you just like the author?


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Sep 5, 2018)

So far as I can find out, Margaret St. Clair was just another _Amazing Stories!_ hack.


Maybe she is someone's gran?


----------



## Blue (Sep 5, 2018)

Bellairs, John 9
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 17
Carter, Lin 14
de Camp & Pratt 7
Dunsany, Lord 17
Leiber, Fritz 18
Merritt, A. 16
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
*St. Clair, Margaret 11*
*Tolkien, J.R.R. 11* # Don't give up, Mr. Frodo
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 16
Zelazny, Roger 17


----------



## Blue (Sep 5, 2018)

Man, I get there are those that think JRRT is over popular and given too much credit, but a few of the people with higher scores I haven't even heard discussion about, and that seems to be just a bit petty.

I'll give Lord Dunsay a place even if I have ready only one of his works, but was someone like John Bellairs or Wade Wellman more influential than Tolkien in forming D&D?


----------



## Ralif Redhammer (Sep 5, 2018)

Up with Tolkien, down with Bellairs. Mostly because he's easy prey and blood is in the water.

Bellairs, John 7
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 17
Carter, Lin 14
de Camp & Pratt 7
Dunsany, Lord 17
Leiber, Fritz 18
Merritt, A. 16
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 11
Tolkien, J.R.R. 12
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 16
Zelazny, Roger 17


----------



## Yardiff (Sep 5, 2018)

Bellairs, John 7
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 17+1=18
Carter, Lin 14
de Camp & Pratt 7
Dunsany, Lord 17
Leiber, Fritz 18
Merritt, A. 16
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 11
Tolkien, J.R.R. 12-2=10
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 16
Zelazny, Roger 17


----------



## lowkey13 (Sep 5, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


----------



## Yardiff (Sep 5, 2018)

Maxperson said:


> Circumstantial, sure.  Tolkien was rip roaring until the private message about the Fellowship was made public.  Then all of a sudden Tolkien was the #1 target.




The way I remember it, Tolkien was being hit often when the message went out to try and ensure he was one of the finalists.


----------



## CleverNickName (Sep 5, 2018)

To borrow a popular Internet meme about music:


----------



## Prakriti (Sep 5, 2018)

Bellairs, John 7
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 18
Carter, Lin 14
de Camp & Pratt 7
Dunsany, Lord 17
Leiber, Fritz 18
Merritt, A. 16
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 11
Tolkien, J.R.R. 11
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 16
Zelazny, Roger 15


----------



## Gradine (Sep 5, 2018)

Bellairs, John 7
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 18
Carter, Lin 14
de Camp & Pratt 7
Dunsany, Lord 17
Leiber, Fritz 16 - I just don't like S&S
Merritt, A. 16
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 11
Tolkien, J.R.R. 12 - As previously stated, Tolkien's influence on D&D is unmistakable. Even if I find everything other than the Hobbit dreary to read
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 16
Zelazny, Roger 15


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Sep 5, 2018)

A point of note: Appendix N was never a intended as a list of "source material D&D was based on". It was included in the DMG as a list of material for prospective DMs to plagiarise.


----------



## Lord Mhoram (Sep 5, 2018)

ellairs, John 7
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 18
Carter, Lin 14
de Camp & Pratt 7
Dunsany, Lord 17
Leiber, Fritz 14
Merritt, A. 16
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 11
Tolkien, J.R.R. 13 
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 16
Zelazny, Roger 15


----------



## CleverNickName (Sep 5, 2018)

Bellairs, John 7
*Burroughs, Edgar Rice 18-2=16* Sorry Ed.  You know I love you, but you're no Tolkien.
Carter, Lin 14
de Camp & Pratt 7
Dunsany, Lord 17
Leiber, Fritz 14
Merritt, A. 16
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 11
*Tolkien, J.R.R. 13+1=14*, obviously
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 16
Zelazny, Roger 15


----------



## Gradine (Sep 5, 2018)

lowkey13 said:


> We may be setting a record for length ... and passion.
> 
> I mean, it's no "condition" survivor thread (how dare Paralysis win.... WHERE IS THE JUSTICE IN THAT!) but I think people have the feels about authors.




We are all, by our mere presence here, nerds. I dare you to find me something we could not muster up "the feels" about.


----------



## lowkey13 (Sep 5, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


----------



## Sacrosanct (Sep 5, 2018)

Bellairs, John 7
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 16
Carter, Lin 14
de Camp & Pratt 7
Dunsany, Lord 17
Leiber, Fritz 15
Merritt, A. 16
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 11
Tolkien, J.R.R. 12
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 16
Zelazny, Roger 15


----------



## Gradine (Sep 5, 2018)

lowkey13 said:


> Great Hungarian Romantic Comedies of the 1990s?




https://www.imdb.com/list/ls054373690/

That was just in like... five seconds of Googling.


----------



## Sacrosanct (Sep 5, 2018)

Maxperson said:


> This would hold weight, IF Gary hadn't mentioned Tolkien specifically by name in Chainmail three times, and referenced multiple other Tolkien specific names like Hobbits and Balrogs, as well as other things from Tolkien's world.   Heck, he even said "Most of the fantastic battles related in novels more closely resemble medieval warfare than they do earlier or later forms of combat. Because of this we are including a brief set of rules which will allow the medieval miniatures wargamer to add a new facet to his hobby,* and either refight the epic struggles related by J.R.R. Tolkien*, Robert E. Howard, and other fantasy writers; or you can devise your own "world", and conduct fantastic campaigns and conflicts based on it."
> 
> Recreating Tolkien's world to conduct fantastic campaigns was part of Chainmail.




You clearly didn't even read what I wrote.  Again, Gary making a reference directly to Tolkien in no way, shape, or form means that Tolkien was the _foundational _influence to D&D.  Which is what you claimed.  It only means he was an influence. And we know how much, because Gary addressed this many times.  He's outright said he wasn't the biggest influence, but included him and some of his creations because that's what people were most familiar with, and of course he wanted to sell as many brown boxes as possible. 

The only response to this is to call Gary a liar.  Which is awfully convenient now that he's dead and can't defend himself any longer.


----------



## CleverNickName (Sep 5, 2018)

Gradine said:


> We are all, by our mere presence here, nerds. I dare you to find me something we could not muster up "the feels" about.



Ennui?


----------



## lowkey13 (Sep 5, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


----------



## Gradine (Sep 5, 2018)

Sacrosanct said:


> The only response to this is to call Gary a liar.  Which is awfully convenient now that he's dead and can't defend himself any longer.




Here's the thing about influences; the things (and particularly cultural artifacts) that influence us often do so in ways that are as much unconscious and conscious. We're not always the best in naming our influences at the best of times, and in a time when Gygax really wanted people to get into Sword & Sorcery but knew Tolkien was what everyone was reading, he (and others, let's not forget) built a game that would be familiar to Tolkien fans while still carrying the tone and feel of S&S. Thus, he had every reason to (both consciously and unconsciously) downplay the influence of Tolkien on the work. But to try to argue that Tolkien isn't _foundational_ to D&D is just silly. Of course it's foundational; as foundational as the works of Vance, Howard, Lieber, or Moorcock, at the very least. Not just the borrowed creature here or there, but the playable races as well. D&D's Elves and Dwarves are Tolkien's Elves and Dwarves. Full stop. And Gygax's Halflings were still so close to Hobbits that Wizards has been doing everything in their power to make Halflings as "not-Hobbit" as possible while still being recognizable as D&D Halflings.

I'm not so sure I would call Tolkien foundational to Gygax's home game, given what we know of it, but of the game he (and others, let's not forget) wrote down and put in a box and sold to a bunch of people? The argument that he's not foundational just doesn't hold water.


----------



## Gradine (Sep 5, 2018)

CleverNickName said:


> Ennui?




You have clearly never seen nerds trying to out-edge each other before.



lowkey13 said:


> Fun fact No. 1- I have no feels.Just in general.
> 
> Fun fact No. 2- None of those are Rom coms from the 1990s.
> 
> BOOM!




Fun Fact No. 1- Gnomes and Paladins are both worthy additions to the game of Dungeons & Dragons

Fun Fact No. 2 - Not of the genre as we would recognize it in, say the US or UK, no, but several were romantic _dramedies_ that seemed to be in vogue at the time (along with post-soviet farce, it would appear).


----------



## OB1 (Sep 5, 2018)

happyhermit said:


> OB1, I feel bad about persistently knocking the author you are upvoting, if you tell me why I'm wrong I will reconsider (though I am fairly set against). Do you see influence on D&D or do you just like the author?




Really I’ve read very few of these authors but her biography struck me for some reason so I figured I’d champion her. Didn’t expect her to win, but found it annoying that so early in the game she was getting downvotes for being a “threat” to another author, which launched my vendetta against Tolkien fans. 

There were 15 or 20 other authors to downvote, many of which had never gotten an upvote. Might be wise to go after those first rather than get into an endgame battle so early.  

So it’ll be -2 for Tolkien every day from me. Do as you wish with MSC, I’ll find another author to champion if she goes down.


----------



## CleverNickName (Sep 5, 2018)

If it weren't for Tolkien, I never would have gotten involved in this hobby.  I read _The Hobbit_ in my early teens, just as TS&R was publishing their Red Box Rules (which I got for my 13th birthday...thanks mom!)  Tolkien's epic tale of elves, dwarves, orcs, and dragons inspired me to seek out other epic tales of elves, dwarves, orcs, and dragons.   Eventually it inspired me to write epic tales of my own for my friends and siblings.   And here I am.

Clearly, some folks didn't have that experience and it makes me a little sad.  Not out of pity or spite, come on...I'm old but I'm not petty.  

It's more like a pang of nostalgia...the same feeling I get when I realize that some people never got to eat a White Tower hamburger.  Or never got to buy the really good firecrackers from a roadside fireworks stand.  Or never got to see _The Empire Strikes Back_ in the theater, before Star Wars became a multi-million dollar franchise and started focusing more on toy sales and special effects than the story.  (See also:  Lord of the Rings.)

It's nobody's fault; times change and we change with them whether we like it or not.  Long after he is finally voted out of this popularity contest (which will probably happen sometime tomorrow, the way the concerted attack is going), Tolkien's influence on the game is both obvious and undeniable.  Take comfort in that, my fellow Tolkien fans.

Also:  Downvoting Tolkien is like downvoting Muppet Yoda.  Why would you do that?


----------



## TiwazTyrsfist (Sep 5, 2018)

Bellairs, John 7
*Burroughs, Edgar Rice 17*
Carter, Lin 14
de Camp & Pratt 7
Dunsany, Lord 17
Leiber, Fritz 15
Merritt, A. 16
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 11
*Tolkien, J.R.R. 10*
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 16
Zelazny, Roger 15


----------



## Ralif Redhammer (Sep 5, 2018)

Much the same experience, for me. Discovering Tolkien followed by the Red Box was a one-two punch that I never recovered from, thankfully.

Also, while neither are Rom-Coms of the 90s, I can recommend both Kontroll and Taxidermia (that one’s not for the squeamish, to be sure). That’s the extent of my knowledge for Hungarian cinema, I’m afraid.




CleverNickName said:


> If it weren't for Tolkien, I never would have gotten involved in this hobby.  I read _The Hobbit_ in my early teens, just as TS&R was publishing their Red Box Rules (which I got for my 13th birthday...thanks mom!)  Tolkien's epic tale of elves, dwarves, orcs, and dragons inspired me to seek out other epic tales of elves, dwarves, orcs, and dragons.   Eventually it inspired me to write epic tales of my own for my friends and siblings.   And here I am.


----------



## lowkey13 (Sep 5, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


----------



## Bradley Hindman (Sep 5, 2018)

CleverNickName said:


> If it weren't for Tolkien, I never would have gotten involved in this hobby.  I read _The Hobbit_ in my early teens, just as TS&R was publishing their Red Box Rules (which I got for my 13th birthday...thanks mom!)  Tolkien's epic tale of elves, dwarves, orcs, and dragons inspired me to seek out other epic tales of elves, dwarves, orcs, and dragons.   Eventually it inspired me to write epic tales of my own for my friends and siblings.   And here I am.
> 
> Clearly, some folks didn't have that experience and it makes me a little sad.  Not out of pity or spite, come on...I'm old but I'm not petty.




You assume too much!  I read the hobbit in 4th grade (thank you Mrs. Christensen my 4th grade teacher) and have been hooked on RPGs, scifi and fantasy ever since.  I devoured the Lord of the Rings and the Silmarillion shortly thereafter and was mesmerized.  However, I reread the Lord of the Rings as an adult and found it a long slog to get through. The ideas and world building were still fantastic, but the writing was painfully long winded.

So, I had the same early experience with Tolkien as you, but I'm downvoting him regularly and often. Its not that I hate him, hate his books, or didn't enjoy reading them.  They just ain't my cup of tea anymore. I have the same problem with Brandon Sanderson.  Good ideas, too many words to get them across. I don't have the free-time to read a thousand pages anymore.  Both Sanderson and Tolkien need an editor with a cruel heart to cut those tomes down to a reasonable size.


----------



## tglassy (Sep 5, 2018)

Tolkien was my first foray into fantasy.  My dad didn't read a lot.  He's brilliant, but he reads too slowly to get much enjoyment out of reading fiction.  But when he and my mom were first married, they read The Lord of the Rings together, he reading it out loud to her. I remember him reading The Hobbit to me and my sister as kids, doing voices for all the different characters.  

Then was the cartoon, which I barely remember, but which continued The Lord of the Rings to me.  I read The Hobbit for the first time at the age of 12.  I chose it as one of my book reports for school.  It was fascinating.  When the movies started to come out, I was 14, and so I read about half of Fellowship before the movie came out.  I was bad and went ahead and saw the movie before finishing the book.  

Needless to say, Fantasy became my genre at that point.  Everything about it resonated with me.  After the movie, I dove back into the book, having lost no enjoyment from having the first book spoiled.  Over the course of the next year, I got through both Two Towers and Return of the King. This was my first real foray into adult fiction, so it took me a while to get through it all, but I loved it.  

Yeah, it's a hard read at times.  Tolkien was a master world builder, character builder, and storyteller, but his writing as more verbose than current audiences can handle, I think.  We all want action action action save the details give me the action!  But those books personified my coming of age years.  By the time the final movie was released, I was writing my own fantasy books.  I've completed three of them.  

I've read other authors.  I like many other authors.  But Tolkien started it all for me.  And I could watch those movies a thousand times and they never get old.


----------



## Reynard (Sep 5, 2018)

Bradley Hindman said:


> Both Sanderson and Tolkien need an editor with a cruel heart to cut those tomes down to a reasonable size.




Wait, what? Tolkien does in a single 1000 page volume what Sanderson can't manage in seven. Never mind Martin or Jordan or their BFF imitators. Say what you want about Tolkien but compared to today's authors he was downright terse.


----------



## CleverNickName (Sep 5, 2018)

Bradley Hindman said:


> Both Sanderson and Tolkien need an editor with a cruel heart to cut those tomes down to a reasonable size.



Disagree.  A thousand pages across 3 books is a very reasonable size, even by today's standards.  ("A Game of Thrones" alone was almost 800 pages.)  The pacing of the story might be slow, but the page count isn't the problem.

Just sayin'.


----------



## Ed Laprade (Sep 5, 2018)

Bellairs, John 7
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 17 +1 = 18
Carter, Lin 14
de Camp & Pratt 7
Dunsany, Lord 17
Leiber, Fritz 15
Merritt, A. 16
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 11
Tolkien, J.R.R. 10 -2 = 8
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 16
Zelazny, Roger 15


----------



## Grognerd (Sep 5, 2018)

I just realized... all the people downvoting Tolkien are indeed proving his inspiration, just not the way they think!

Many are downvoting him just out of spite or because of some Fellowship or whatever else. In other words, it's not that they have issue with him, but now - because so many on this thread have factionalized - they are doing it simply to "win"!  And the D&D tradition of turning a non-competitive, collaborative game into a question of us vs. them or winners & losers is indeed classic D&D! So in a very real way, Tolkien has (albeit indirectly) _inspired_ people on this D&D thread! 

(Tongue in cheek guys... don't get upset. I recognize that this is all in fun and no one has to have a "good" reason to vote for anyone, either way. )


----------



## Dausuul (Sep 5, 2018)

Bellairs, John 7
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 16 (downvoted)
Carter, Lin 14
de Camp & Pratt 7
Dunsany, Lord 17
Leiber, Fritz 15
Merritt, A. 16
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 11
Tolkien, J.R.R. 8
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 16
Zelazny, Roger 16 (upvoted)


----------



## Bradley Hindman (Sep 5, 2018)

Reynard said:


> Wait, what? Tolkien does in a single 1000 page volume what Sanderson can't manage in seven. Never mind Martin or Jordan or their BFF imitators. Say what you want about Tolkien but compared to today's authors he was downright terse.




Yeah. I shouldn't have brought up Sanderson, as he must be paid by the word.  (Although his more recent Alloy of Law series is more to the point.)




CleverNickName said:


> Disagree.  A thousand pages across 3 books  is a very reasonable size, even by today's standards.  ("A Game of  Thrones" alone was almost 800 pages.)  The pacing of the story might be  slow, but the page count isn't the problem.




. . . and you're right it isn't necessarily the page count.  Its what you do with those pages.  There is a lot in the Lord of the Rings that is . . . at the risk of painting a target on myself . . . filler. Lot's of stuff that if cut wouldn't remove from the central story: poems, long-winded historical accounts, superfluous scenes (e.g., Tom Bombadil) etc.  In places it feels a lot like reading the Icelandic sagas word for word, with their pages of genealogy.  Now, I realize that much of this extra material may help set the tone and many view it as value-added. At the time when I first read the Lord of the Rings, I didn't mind it at all.  Now, I find it a distraction.  I was hoping that the movies would be more tightly edited, as movies usually are.  But, we all know how that went (really, did The Hobbit need to be a movie trilogy?)


----------



## Bradley Hindman (Sep 5, 2018)

CleverNickName said:


> Disagree.  A thousand pages across 3 books is a very reasonable size, even by today's standards.  ("A Game of Thrones" alone was almost 800 pages.)  The pacing of the story might be slow, but the page count isn't the problem.
> 
> Just sayin'.




PS . . . and I only read the first two books in "A Game of Thrones" for the same reason.  The first one was great, but after finishing the second and realizing that many of the characters who were introduced were never connected to any of the other characters (in fact a couple died before they could interact with the primary story), I gave up on the series.


----------



## CleverNickName (Sep 5, 2018)

Bradley Hindman said:


> . . . and you're right it isn't necessarily the page count.  Its what you do with those pages.  There is a lot in the Lord of the Rings that is . . . at the risk of painting a target on myself . . . filler. Lot's of stuff that if cut wouldn't remove from the central story...



Completely agree; a lot of the stuff in the Lord of the Rings (and The Hobbit) are backstory and history.  Today's readers already know what a "dwarf" is in fantasy literature, and an "elf," and a "halfling."  This stuff is all well-established here in the 21st century.  The world-building all feels superfluous by today's standards, but at the time it was written it was incredible--the richness, the color, the detail, was still shiny.

Today's "brand" of fantasy fiction owes a great deal to Tolkien.  There's no escaping that.


----------



## CleverNickName (Sep 5, 2018)

Bradley Hindman said:


> PS . . . and I only read the first two books in "A Game of Thrones" for the same reason.  The first one was great, but after finishing the second and realizing that many of the character who were introduced were never connected to any of the other characters (in fact a couple died before they could interact with the primary story), I gave up on the series.



You're not alone; I couldn't even finish the first one.  I kept finding other, more interesting stuff to read.


----------



## Parmandur (Sep 5, 2018)

Bradley Hindman said:


> Yeah. I shouldn't have brought up Sanderson, as he must be paid by the word.  (Although his more recent Alloy of Law series is more to the point.)
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Oh, man,beyond value added, that stuff is the point. I also like long lists of names in Icelandic Sagas, to be fair.


----------



## Bradley Hindman (Sep 5, 2018)

CleverNickName said:


> You're not alone; I couldn't even finish the first one.  I kept finding other, more interesting stuff to read.




Boy howdy. When my friends tell me I'm missing a great series  if only I could get through a couple of mediocre books to get to the good stuff (not necessarily Martin's unfinished opus), I just think of all the great books I haven't read yet.  I now give a book about 70 pages.  If its not great from the start, I put it down and pick something else up.  My "reading for pleasure time" has gotten too precious to waste as I've gotten older.


----------



## Bradley Hindman (Sep 5, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> Oh, man,beyond value added, that stuff is the point. I also like long lists of names in Icelandic Sagas, to be fair.




This comment explains oh so much


----------



## Reynard (Sep 5, 2018)

Bellairs, John 7-2=5
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 16
Carter, Lin 14
de Camp & Pratt 7
Dunsany, Lord 17
Leiber, Fritz 15
Merritt, A. 16
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 11
Tolkien, J.R.R. 8+1=9
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 16
Zelazny, Roger 16


----------



## Invisible Stalker (Sep 5, 2018)

Eltab said:


> *Fox, Gardner 1 - 2 = -1*  Wow, I take a week off, and not much progress thinning down this list.  Here's some help.




Number of comic books I've read by Gardner Fox > Number of anything else I've read from the rest of Appendix N combined


----------



## Invisible Stalker (Sep 5, 2018)

Bellairs, John 3
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 16
Carter, Lin 14
de Camp & Pratt 7
Dunsany, Lord 17
Leiber, Fritz 15
Merritt, A. 16
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 11
Tolkien, J.R.R. 10
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 16
Zelazny, Roger 16


----------



## Gradine (Sep 5, 2018)

CleverNickName said:


> You're not alone; I couldn't even finish the first one.  I kept finding other, more interesting stuff to read.




I'm one of those weirdos who enjoyed the series the further it went on. I thought A Feast for Crows was magnificent, especially after reading A Dance with Dragons and realizing the characters that were missing from book 4 weren't actually up to all that much that was interesting. Other than the ending the bulk of ADWD is completely missable.


----------



## SpellJammer16 (Sep 5, 2018)

Bellairs, John 3
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 16
Carter, Lin 14
de Camp & Pratt 5
Dunsany, Lord 17
Leiber, Fritz 16
Merritt, A. 16
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 11
Tolkien, J.R.R. 10
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 16
Zelazny, Roger 16


----------



## Nikosandros (Sep 5, 2018)

Bellairs, John 1
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 16
Carter, Lin 14
de Camp & Pratt 7
Dunsany, Lord 17
Leiber, Fritz 15
Merritt, A. 16
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 11
Tolkien, J.R.R. 11
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 16
Zelazny, Roger 16


----------



## SkidAce (Sep 5, 2018)

Bradley Hindman said:


> I have the same problem with Brandon Sanderson.  Good ideas, too many words to get them across. I




HERETIC! Filthy, unclean....get thee hence from me....

Maaaaadness I tell yah.....*





*just kidding...mostly....


----------



## tglassy (Sep 5, 2018)

I’m a huge fan of Sanderson. Have almost his entire Cosmere Collection on audiobook. It’s amazing.


----------



## Bradley Hindman (Sep 5, 2018)

tglassy said:


> I’m a huge fan of Sanderson. Have almost his entire Cosmere Collection on audiobook. It’s amazing.




I am a lot more tolerate of long-winded audio books.  Particularly, if the reader is good.  (Dickens for example, is enjoyable if I can listen while doing other things.)


----------



## Rydac (Sep 5, 2018)

Bellairs, John 1
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 16
Carter, Lin 14
de Camp & Pratt 7
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 16
Merritt, A. 16
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 11
Tolkien, J.R.R. 11
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 16
Zelazny, Roger 16


----------



## werecorpse (Sep 5, 2018)

Bellairs, John 1-2=-1
Burroughs, Edgar Rice 16
Carter, Lin 14
de Camp & Pratt 7
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 16
Merritt, A. 16
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 11
Tolkien, J.R.R. 11+1=12
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 16
Zelazny, Roger 16


----------



## Parmandur (Sep 6, 2018)

Bradley Hindman said:


> This comment explains oh so much




I read the first 8 Wheel of Time novels in about a week, the first go through: fast reading makes large books seem smaller, and small books seem...thin.


----------



## Maxperson (Sep 6, 2018)

lowkey13 said:


> So, we had this debate before, and it was pretty heated. Here, have a look-
> 
> http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...amp-D-is-not-(just)-Tolkien&highlight=Tolkien
> 
> ...




I guess that makes me a Tolkien realist.  I don't maximize or minimize.


----------



## Maxperson (Sep 6, 2018)

Sacrosanct said:


> You clearly didn't even read what I wrote.  Again, Gary making a reference directly to Tolkien in no way, shape, or form means that Tolkien was the _foundational _influence to D&D.  Which is what you claimed.  It only means he was an influence. And we know how much, because Gary addressed this many times.  He's outright said he wasn't the biggest influence, but included him and some of his creations because that's what people were most familiar with, and of course he wanted to sell as many brown boxes as possible.
> 
> The only response to this is to call Gary a liar.  Which is awfully convenient now that he's dead and can't defend himself any longer.




LOL  No.  No the only response isn't to call Gary a liar.  Hell, I haven't even gotten to the point where I know he even said those things.  I provided a solid argument.  Chainmail is the foundation for D&D and Tolkien influenced that foundation quite a bit.  That equates to Tolkien influencing the foundation of D&D.  You've done nothing but make an unsubstantiated claim about what Gygax said.  Right at this point in the conversation it has about as much weight as if I said that Gygax once said he loved riding mules through Moscow.  Since you claim that Gygax said multiple times that Tolkien didn't influence the game's foundation, it should be memorialized somewhere for you to link for me.  Once you do that, we can move past this point.  Right now you haven't even countered my argument yet.


----------



## Parmandur (Sep 6, 2018)

I mean...Gygax was a liar? This isn't even a controversial statement.


----------



## StormbringerAUS (Sep 6, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 16
Carter, Lin 14
de Camp & Pratt 7
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 16 - 2 = 14
Merritt, A. 16
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 11
Tolkien, J.R.R. 12 + 1 = 13
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 16
Zelazny, Roger 16


----------



## the Jester (Sep 6, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 16
Carter, Lin 14 - 2 =12
de Camp & Pratt 7
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 14
Merritt, A. 16
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 11
Tolkien, J.R.R. 13
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 16
Zelazny, Roger 16 + 1 = 17


----------



## Imaro (Sep 6, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 16
Carter, Lin 12
de Camp & Pratt 7
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 14
Merritt, A. 16
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 11
Tolkien, J.R.R. 11
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 16
Zelazny, Roger 18


----------



## Tyler Do'Urden (Sep 6, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 16
Carter, Lin 12
de Camp & Pratt 7
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 14
Merritt, A. 14
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 11
Tolkien, J.R.R. 12 The road goes ever on...
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 16
Zelazny, Roger 18


----------



## Parmandur (Sep 6, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 16
Carter, Lin 12
de Camp & Pratt 7
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 14
Merritt, A. 12
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 11
Tolkien, J.R.R. 13 
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 16
Zelazny, Roger 18


----------



## chrisrtld (Sep 6, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 16
Carter, Lin 12
de Camp & Pratt 5
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 14
Merritt, A. 12
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 11
Tolkien, J.R.R. 14 
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 16
Zelazny, Roger 18


----------



## Tyler Do'Urden (Sep 6, 2018)

It's a new day and I can't sleep, so I'll vote again...

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 16
Carter, Lin 12
de Camp & Pratt 5
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 14
Merritt, A. 12
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 11
Tolkien, J.R.R. 15 
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 14
Zelazny, Roger 18


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Sep 6, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 16
Carter, Lin 12
de Camp & Pratt 5
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 15
Merritt, A. 12
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 11
Tolkien, J.R.R. 13
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 14
Zelazny, Roger 18


----------



## Harzel (Sep 6, 2018)

CleverNickName said:


> Also:  Downvoting Tolkien is like downvoting Muppet Yoda. [-] Why would you do that[/-]Do that why would you?




Fixed it for you.


----------



## Harzel (Sep 6, 2018)

Correction for [MENTION=6909273]SpellJammer16[/MENTION]'s lost votes...

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 16
Carter, Lin 12
de Camp & Pratt 3
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 16
Merritt, A. 12
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 12
St. Clair, Margaret 11
Tolkien, J.R.R. 13
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 14
Zelazny, Roger 18


----------



## Harzel (Sep 6, 2018)

Having read a bit about the remaining authors in the list whose work I haven't read, I am reluctant to downvote either them or the authors that I have read.  Oh, well, as @_*lowkey13*_ might observe, no authors will be harmed in the making of this thread, so we must see this through to its bloody conclusion.  It is our duty.

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 16
Carter, Lin 12
de Camp & Pratt 3
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 16
Merritt, A. 12
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 10
St. Clair, Margaret 11
Tolkien, J.R.R. 14
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 14
Zelazny, Roger 18


----------



## Harzel (Sep 6, 2018)

lowkey13 said:


> TLDR; Tolkien was certainly an influence. The amount of influence is in the eye of the beholder.




No, no, no.  I can't believe you think that Tolkien influenced the eyes of beholders.  *Tolkien contributed nothing to beholders!  *My buddy Gary said so at least 14 times.  Truly, you are an ignorant sod.  And no, I won't stop calling you Truly.

P.S.  For those of you who find _Lord of the Rings_ too laborious, I suggest _Bored of the Rings_.   I rather enjoyed it.  Much shorter, and, in its own way, faster paced, at the expense, perhaps, of plot continuity.


----------



## Tallifer (Sep 6, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 16
Carter, Lin 12
de Camp & Pratt 3
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 16
Merritt, A. 12
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 10
St. Clair, Margaret 11
Tolkien, J.R.R. 15
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 14
Zelazny, Roger 16


----------



## Grognerd (Sep 6, 2018)

New day, new votes...

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 16
Carter, Lin 12
de Camp & Pratt 3
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 16
Merritt, A. 12
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 10
St. Clair, Margaret 11
Tolkien, J.R.R. 16
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 14
Zelazny, Roger 14

I wasn’t going to vote Tolkien, but I feel like there’s too much spite down voting of him. Now down voting Zelazny... that’s because there is no way he should be on top, or even top three.


----------



## GreyLord (Sep 6, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 17
Carter, Lin 12
de Camp & Pratt 1
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 16
Merritt, A. 12
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 10
St. Clair, Margaret 11
Tolkien, J.R.R. 16Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 14
Zelazny, Roger 14


----------



## tglassy (Sep 6, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 17 - 2 = 15
Carter, Lin 12
de Camp & Pratt 1 
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 16
Merritt, A. 12
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 10
St. Clair, Margaret 11
Tolkien, J.R.R. 16 + 1 = 17
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 14
Zelazny, Roger 14


----------



## Yardiff (Sep 6, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 15+1=16
Carter, Lin 12
de Camp & Pratt 1 
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 16
Merritt, A. 12
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 10
St. Clair, Margaret 11
Tolkien, J.R.R. 17-2=15
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 14
Zelazny, Roger 14


----------



## Bradley Hindman (Sep 6, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 16
Carter, Lin 12
de Camp & Pratt 1 
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 16
Merritt, A. 12
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 10
St. Clair, Margaret 11
*Tolkien, J.R.R. 15 - 2 = 13*
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 14
*Zelazny, Roger 14 + 1 = 15*


----------



## Maxperson (Sep 6, 2018)

Harzel said:


> No, no, no.  I can't believe you think that Tolkien influenced the eyes of beholders.  *Tolkien contributed nothing to beholders!  *My buddy Gary said so at least 14 times.  Truly, you are an ignorant sod.  And no, I won't stop calling you Truly.
> 
> P.S.  For those of you who find _Lord of the Rings_ too laborious, I suggest _Bored of the Rings_.   I rather enjoyed it.  Much shorter, and, in its own way, faster paced, at the expense, perhaps, of plot continuity.




Lies!  Elves have eyes, orcs have eyes, and dwarves have ayes!  Sauron and Morgoth were both tyrants.  Eye tyrants are completely founded on Tolkien!


----------



## Maxperson (Sep 6, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 16
Carter, Lin 12
de Camp & Pratt 0 - Dead, like a drowned Pratt you'd bring back to Camp.
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 16
Merritt, A. 12
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 10
St. Clair, Margaret 11
Tolkien, J.R.R. 14
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 14
Zelazny, Roger 15


----------



## lowkey13 (Sep 6, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


----------



## Grognerd (Sep 6, 2018)

lowkey13 said:


> Feelin' like Sisyphus.




You just need to be a better negotiator. Make deals! Like I'll not upvote Tolkien if you won't upvote Zelazny. (Uh Oh!  Was that making a shady deal?? I don't want to cause turmoil! )


----------



## tglassy (Sep 6, 2018)

You should have a doctor take a look at that.


----------



## lowkey13 (Sep 6, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


----------



## Blue (Sep 6, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 16
Carter, Lin 12
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 16
Merritt, A. 12
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 10
St. Clair, Margaret 9
Tolkien, J.R.R. 12
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 14
Zelazny, Roger 17


----------



## lowkey13 (Sep 6, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


----------



## Nagol (Sep 6, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 16
Carter, Lin 12
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 16
Merritt, A. 12
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 10
St. Clair, Margaret 9-2=7
Tolkien, J.R.R. 12
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 14
Zelazny, Roger 17+1=18


----------



## Grognerd (Sep 6, 2018)

lowkey13 said:


> Also, to elaborate, I am alternating upvotes on Leiber and Zelazny. To explain-
> 
> I had three foundational fantasy authors.
> 
> ...




That's a good foundation. (Well, except for Zelazny! ) I definitely think Lieber needs the recognition. Everyone is quick to point to the heavy Tolkien influences in D&D's _content_, but it seems like many people don't seem to recognize how heavily Lieber influenced D&D's _style_.


----------



## rczarnec (Sep 6, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 17
Carter, Lin 12
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 16
Merritt, A. 12
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 8
St. Clair, Margaret 7
Tolkien, J.R.R. 12
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 14
Zelazny, Roger 18


----------



## OB1 (Sep 6, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 17
Carter, Lin 12
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 16
Merritt, A. 12
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 8
St. Clair, Margaret 8
Tolkien, J.R.R. 10
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 14
Zelazny, Roger 18

Got inspired to find and read a St. Clair book yesterday and am about half way through Signs of the Labrys.  I definitely picked the right author to back as I find her weird sci-fantasy bent to be right up my alley, even if the prose itself isn't that great.  Having recently DM'd Out of the Abyss I also keep seeing influences on the Underdark and Zuggtomy.  But what I'm really wondering is if a young Stephen King once read this post-apocalyptic book and if that had an influence on The Stand.  Something about the way the fungus kills in Labrys reminds me of the superflu in that book.


----------



## CleverNickName (Sep 6, 2018)

*Burroughs, Edgar Rice 17-2=15*
Carter, Lin 12
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 16
Merritt, A. 12
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 8
St. Clair, Margaret 8
*Tolkien, J.R.R. 10+1=11*, obviously
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 14
Zelazny, Roger 18


----------



## Sacrosanct (Sep 6, 2018)

Maxperson said:


> LOL  No.  No the only response isn't to call Gary a liar.  Hell, I haven't even gotten to the point where I know he even said those things.  I provided a solid argument.  Chainmail is the foundation for D&D and Tolkien influenced that foundation quite a bit.  That equates to Tolkien influencing the foundation of D&D.  You've done nothing but make an unsubstantiated claim about what Gygax said.  Right at this point in the conversation it has about as much weight as if I said that Gygax once said he loved riding mules through Moscow.  Since you claim that Gygax said multiple times that Tolkien didn't influence the game's foundation, it should be memorialized somewhere for you to link for me.  Once you do that, we can move past this point.  Right now you haven't even countered my argument yet.




We had a thread about this very thing several months ago.  You participated in it.  So either you have the worst memory in history, or you're being disingenuous when you say you don't even know if he said those things.   But even outside of that, it's pretty common knowledge how Gary felt about the whole thing, and it's extremely easy to Google.  Here's one thing he responded with, way back in 1974 regarding what influence Tolkien had.

I hope this means when we have this topic in another six months from now, you won't make another post about how you've never heard of him saying that.


----------



## Sacrosanct (Sep 6, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 15
Carter, Lin 12
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 17
Merritt, A. 12
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 8
St. Clair, Margaret 8
Tolkien, J.R.R. 9
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 14
Zelazny, Roger 18


----------



## Ralif Redhammer (Sep 6, 2018)

Upvote for Tolkien, Downvote for Pratt. The more Pratt I've read, the more I feel like it was DeCamp that brought The Compleat Enchanter to life.

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 15
Carter, Lin 12
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 17
Merritt, A. 12
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 6
St. Clair, Margaret 8
Tolkien, J.R.R. 10
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 14
Zelazny, Roger 18


----------



## squibbles (Sep 6, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 15
Carter, Lin 12
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 17+1=18
Merritt, A. 12
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 6
St. Clair, Margaret 8
Tolkien, J.R.R. 10-2=8
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 14
Zelazny, Roger 18


----------



## Prakriti (Sep 6, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 15
Carter, Lin 12
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 18
Merritt, A. 12
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 6
St. Clair, Margaret 8
Tolkien, J.R.R. 9
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 14
Zelazny, Roger 16


----------



## Gradine (Sep 6, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 15
Carter, Lin 12
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 16
Merritt, A. 12
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 6
St. Clair, Margaret 8
Tolkien, J.R.R. 10
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 14
Zelazny, Roger 16


----------



## Lord Mhoram (Sep 6, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 15
Carter, Lin 12
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 14
Merritt, A. 12
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 6
St. Clair, Margaret 8
Tolkien, J.R.R. 10
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 14
Zelazny, Roger 17


----------



## TiwazTyrsfist (Sep 6, 2018)

*Burroughs, Edgar Rice 16*
Carter, Lin 12
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 14
Merritt, A. 12
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 6
St. Clair, Margaret 8
*Tolkien, J.R.R. 8*
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 14
Zelazny, Roger 17


----------



## Hriston (Sep 6, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 16
Carter, Lin 12
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 14
Merritt, A. 12
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 6
St. Clair, Margaret 8
Tolkien, J.R.R. 9
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 14
Zelazny, Roger 15


----------



## Dausuul (Sep 6, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 14
Carter, Lin 12
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 14
Merritt, A. 12
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 6
St. Clair, Margaret 8
Tolkien, J.R.R. 9
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 14
Zelazny, Roger 16


----------



## Lanefan (Sep 6, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 14
    Carter, Lin 12
    Dunsany, Lord 15
    Leiber, Fritz 14
    Merritt, A. 12
    Offutt, Andrew J. 14
    Pratt, Fletcher 6
St. Clair, Margaret 6
Tolkien, J.R.R. 10
    Wellman, Manley Wade 14
    Williamson, Jack 14
    Zelazny, Roger 16


----------



## Ed Laprade (Sep 6, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 14 +1 = 15
Carter, Lin 12
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 14
Merritt, A. 12
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 6
St. Clair, Margaret 6
Tolkien, J.R.R. 10 -2 = 8
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 14
Zelazny, Roger 16


----------



## Invisible Stalker (Sep 6, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 15
Carter, Lin 12
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 14
Merritt, A. 12
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 6
St. Clair, Margaret 6
Tolkien, J.R.R. 10
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 14
Zelazny, Roger 14


----------



## Dausuul (Sep 6, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 15
Carter, Lin 12
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 14
Merritt, A. 12
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 6
St. Clair, Margaret 6
Tolkien, J.R.R. 9 - fixing
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 14
Zelazny, Roger 14


----------



## werecorpse (Sep 6, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 15
Carter, Lin 12
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 14
Merritt, A. 12-2=10
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 6
St. Clair, Margaret 6
Tolkien, J.R.R. 9 +1=10
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 14
Zelazny, Roger 14


----------



## Maxperson (Sep 7, 2018)

Sacrosanct said:


> We had a thread about this very thing several months ago.  You participated in it.  So either you have the worst memory in history, or you're being disingenuous when you say you don't even know if he said those things.   But even outside of that, it's pretty common knowledge how Gary felt about the whole thing, and it's extremely easy to Google.  Here's one thing he responded with, way back in 1974 regarding what influence Tolkien had.
> 
> I hope this means when we have this topic in another six months from now, you won't make another post about how you've never heard of him saying that.




So I'm not going to do your research for you.  Just as an FYI, when I come into a thread late, I rarely read all of the posts up to where I enter, and I often skip posts if there are a lot of them.  Don't assume that I've seen posts.  You made the claim here, so you need to back it up here.  Telling me Gygax said something, and then telling me that it's "common knowledge" doesn't cut it as proof of anything.


----------



## StormbringerAUS (Sep 7, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 15
Carter, Lin 12
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 14 -2 = 12
Merritt, A. 10
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 6
St. Clair, Margaret 6
Tolkien, J.R.R. 10 + 1 = 11
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 14
Zelazny, Roger 14


----------



## chrisrtld (Sep 7, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 15
Carter, Lin 12
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 10
Merritt, A. 10
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 6
St. Clair, Margaret 6
Tolkien, J.R.R. 12
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 14
Zelazny, Roger 14


----------



## happyhermit (Sep 7, 2018)

OB1 said:


> Really I’ve read very few of these authors but her biography struck me for some reason so I figured I’d champion her. Didn’t expect her to win, but found it annoying that so early in the game she was getting downvotes for being a “threat” to another author, which launched my vendetta against Tolkien fans.
> 
> There were 15 or 20 other authors to downvote, many of which had never gotten an upvote. Might be wise to go after those first rather than get into an endgame battle so early.
> 
> So it’ll be -2 for Tolkien every day from me. Do as you wish with MSC, I’ll find another author to champion if she goes down.




Fair enough, I will only feel sorta bad then, at least it isn't your most favorite-ist person ever that I'm targeting. I think you misconstrued my reasons for downvoting them though, it wasn't anything even slightly strategic. I just don't feel it makes any sense for them to be higher than a bunch of other authors on the list, either in terms of quality of writing or of influence on D&D.



chrisrtld said:


> Burroughs, Edgar Rice 15
> Carter, Lin 12
> Dunsany, Lord 15
> Leiber, Fritz 10
> ...




Also to those who mentioned it upthread, these days I also pay professionals to read to me! It has allowed me to get through some books that I probably never would have stuck with but ended up being very satisfying. Sure, some books (and movies, etc.) expect you to sit through way too much dross and expect the last few scenes to make up for it, but many are just a bit hard to get into and listening has helped that. Yeah audiobooks! Yes, I said that.


----------



## Dausuul (Sep 7, 2018)

happyhermit said:


> Also to those who mentioned it upthread, these days I also pay professionals to read to me! It has allowed me to get through some books that I probably never would have stuck with but ended up being very satisfying. Sure, some books (and movies, etc.) expect you to sit through way too much dross and expect the last few scenes to make up for it, but many are just a bit hard to get into and listening has helped that. Yeah audiobooks! Yes, I said that.




Nothing wrong with audiobooks. It's the same book, just in a different form. Not my cup of tea, but I know lots of folks who swear by them.


----------



## werecorpse (Sep 7, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 15
Carter, Lin 12
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 10
Merritt, A. 10
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 6
St. Clair, Margaret 4*
Tolkien, J.R.R. 13*
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 14
Zelazny, Roger 14

Fixing for the happy hermit (I think)


----------



## Parmandur (Sep 7, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 15
Carter, Lin 12
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 10
Merritt, A. 10
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 6
St. Clair, Margaret 4 - 2 = 2
Tolkien, J.R.R. 13 + 1 =14
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 14
Zelazny, Roger 14


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Sep 7, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 15
Carter, Lin 12
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 11
Merritt, A. 10
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 6
St. Clair, Margaret 2
Tolkien, J.R.R. 12
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 14
Zelazny, Roger 14


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Sep 7, 2018)

Dausuul said:


> Nothing wrong with audiobooks. It's the same book, just in a different form. Not my cup of tea, but I know lots of folks who swear by them.




The problem with audiobooks is you can't skim read or easily skip ahead. There are some perfectly good books with dull or repetitive sections (the later Pratchetts for example, when the Alzheimer's started to take effect).


----------



## Harzel (Sep 7, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 15
Carter, Lin 12
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 11
Merritt, A. 10
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 4
St. Clair, Margaret 2
Tolkien, J.R.R. 13
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 14
Zelazny, Roger 14


----------



## Nagol (Sep 7, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 15
Carter, Lin 12
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 11
Merritt, A. 10
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 4
St. Clair, Margaret 2
Tolkien, J.R.R. 13=2=11
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 14
Zelazny, Roger 14+1=15


----------



## tglassy (Sep 7, 2018)

*Survivor Appendix N Authors-  THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE!*

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 15
Carter, Lin 12
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 11
Merritt, A. 10
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 4
St. Clair, Margaret 2 - 2 = 0
Tolkien, J.R.R. 11 + 1 = 12
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 14
Zelazny, Roger 15

My goal is to get Tolkien as close to winning as possible. Top ten would be ok. Top 5 would be better. Number one is preferred.


----------



## Grognerd (Sep 7, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 15
Carter, Lin 12
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 11
Merritt, A. 10
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 4
Tolkien, J.R.R. 13
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 14
Zelazny, Roger 13

I don’t even need Tolkien to win. I’m just obligated since too many are down voting him to be cool/trendy. 

Zelazny, on the other hand, needs to go. Seriously...why so much Amber love?!?


----------



## Tallifer (Sep 7, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 15
Carter, Lin 12
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 11
Merritt, A. 10
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 4
Tolkien, J.R.R. 14
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 14
Zelazny, Roger 11


----------



## Yardiff (Sep 7, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 15
Carter, Lin 12
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 11+1=12
Merritt, A. 10
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 4
Tolkien, J.R.R. 14-2=12
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 14
Zelazny, Roger 11


----------



## Reynard (Sep 7, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 15
Carter, Lin 12
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 12
Merritt, A. 10
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 4-2=2
Tolkien, J.R.R. 12+1=13
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 14
Zelazny, Roger 11

I'm ok with Burroughs winning, but I won't see the Professor go before Pratt.


----------



## Maxperson (Sep 7, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 15
Carter, Lin 12
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 12
Merritt, A. 10
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Pratt, Fletcher 0
Tolkien, J.R.R. 14
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 14
Zelazny, Roger 11


----------



## lowkey13 (Sep 7, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


----------



## lowkey13 (Sep 7, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


----------



## OB1 (Sep 7, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 15
Carter, Lin 12
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 12
Merritt, A. 10
Offutt, Andrew J. 14
Tolkien, J.R.R. 10
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 14
Zelazny, Roger 13


----------



## Grognerd (Sep 7, 2018)

lowkey13 said:


> *sigh* It's not ... just ... Amber.




Fair enough. But Amber is enough to put me off from him.  



> Numerous great novels, numerous GREAT short stories and novellas. He was so influential that many modern writers (such as Gaiman) cite him as their greatest influence.




Well, since Gaiman is pretentious too, that makes sense. 

I wouldn't use getting an RPG as a sign of great love, necessarily. I mean, we've both been around long enough to see some bad RPGs based on bad sources.


----------



## Tyler Do'Urden (Sep 7, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 15
Carter, Lin 12
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 12
Merritt, A. 10
Offutt, Andrew J. 12
Tolkien, J.R.R. 11
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 14
Zelazny, Roger 13


----------



## lowkey13 (Sep 7, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


----------



## happyhermit (Sep 7, 2018)

Dausuul said:


> Nothing wrong with audiobooks. It's the same book, just in a different form. Not my cup of tea, but I know lots of folks who swear by them.




In reality I could care less, but there is still a fair bit of nose-looking-down directed toward audiobooks. To be fair, I still find dramatized versions a bit hard to take seriously and early on they were more common. 



werecorpse said:


> Fixing for the happy hermit (I think)




Yeah, I really made a mess of that.



Paul Farquhar said:


> The problem with audiobooks is you can't skim read or easily skip ahead. There are some perfectly good books with dull or repetitive sections (the later Pratchetts for example, when the Alzheimer's started to take effect).




Well, depending on your player it should be easy to skip ahead, or you can adjust the speed. A good player will of course bookmark where you left off, finding your place when you accidentally left it playing can be significantly less fun.


----------



## Ralif Redhammer (Sep 7, 2018)

I’ve only dabbled in Zelazny’s Chronicles of Amber. I need to dive back in at some point. It’s super-70s in feel, but I think that’s part of the charm. Will be curious to see if the proposed TV series happens. 

That being said, I’ve read Jack of Shadows and Dilvish, the Damned. Both were okay, workmanlike I’d say.

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 15
Carter, Lin 12
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 12
Merritt, A. 10
Offutt, Andrew J. 10
Tolkien, J.R.R. 12
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 14
Zelazny, Roger 13


----------



## Sacrosanct (Sep 7, 2018)

Maxperson said:


> So I'm not going to do your research for you.  Just as an FYI, when I come into a thread late, I rarely read all of the posts up to where I enter, and I often skip posts if there are a lot of them.  Don't assume that I've seen posts.  You made the claim here, so you need to back it up here.  Telling me Gygax said something, and then telling me that it's "common knowledge" doesn't cut it as proof of anything.




That was just one thread.  We've had the same thing every six months or so.  You're a prolific poster who has participated in these threads.  In every thread, people have talked about Gary's comments on this topic, so yeah, it is common knowledge if it's talked about every time it comes up.  I'm not expecting you to do the research for me.  I even provided you a link that quotes him from as early as 1974 on the topic (not to mention the many times he was asked about it since).  Even after I showed you a direct link, you're still asking me to provide proof?  Gary's feelings on Tolkien is about as common knowledge as Gary being ousted from TSR.  Just because you're claiming (a claim I don't believe for reasons I just gave) you never knew about it doesn't mean it's not common knowledge.  

So sorry, I'm not buying it.  You don't seem to be even reading everything I read, and I have a hard time believing that you, as a prolific active poster who has been active in these past threads on this topic, are trying to say you have no idea what Gary said.  

So have a good day.  I'm not going to continue to have a conversation who doesn't bother to read all of my posts.


----------



## Sacrosanct (Sep 7, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 15
Carter, Lin 12
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 13
Merritt, A. 10
Offutt, Andrew J. 10
Tolkien, J.R.R. 10
Wellman, Manley Wade 14
Williamson, Jack 14
Zelazny, Roger 13


----------



## Blue (Sep 7, 2018)

Ralif Redhammer said:


> I’ve only dabbled in Zelazny’s Chronicles of Amber. I need to dive back in at some point. It’s super-70s in feel, but I think that’s part of the charm. Will be curious to see if the proposed TV series happens.
> 
> That being said, I’ve read Jack of Shadows and Dilvish, the Damned. Both were okay, workmanlike I’d say.




Zelazny has a long catalog.  Short stories as well.

You mentioned hi Chronicle of Amber - I really liked them.  The second Chronicles though were only fair.


----------



## Blue (Sep 7, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 15
Carter, Lin 12
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 13
Merritt, A. 10
Offutt, Andrew J. 10
Tolkien, J.R.R. 10
Wellman, Manley Wade 12
Williamson, Jack 14
Zelazny, Roger 14


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Sep 7, 2018)

happyhermit said:


> Well, depending on your player it should be easy to skip ahead, or you can adjust the speed. A good player will of course bookmark where you left off, finding your place when you accidentally left it playing can be significantly less fun.




But unless you skim read you wouldn't know to skip ahead to. You could listen at a higher than normal speed (and I have done that) but it sounds silly.

Maybe it's just the way I read is weird, but I skim large blocks of text at once, then focus in, rather than JUST           ONE        WORD            AT            A              TIME.

That's why I hate the current trend for video too (and full-voiced CRPGs). I can take in text information something like a hundred times faster than I can with video or audio.


----------



## Parmandur (Sep 7, 2018)

Ralif Redhammer said:


> I’ve only dabbled in Zelazny’s Chronicles of Amber. I need to dive back in at some point. It’s super-70s in feel, but I think that’s part of the charm. Will be curious to see if the proposed TV series happens.
> 
> That being said, I’ve read Jack of Shadows and Dilvish, the Damned. Both were okay, workmanlike I’d say.




Yeah, Zelazny was a decent writer, but not the best. Hasn't aged as well as a lot of the folks on this list.


----------



## Gradine (Sep 7, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 15
Carter, Lin 12
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 11
Merritt, A. 10
Offutt, Andrew J. 10
Tolkien, J.R.R. 11
Wellman, Manley Wade 12
Williamson, Jack 14
Zelazny, Roger 14


----------



## SkidAce (Sep 7, 2018)

Grognerd said:


> Zelazny, on the other hand, needs to go. Seriously...why so much Amber love?!?




Cause its a great set of books. ( I do prefer the first 5)

Plus Lord of Light, Jack of Shadows, Doorways in the Sand.


----------



## Prakriti (Sep 7, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 15
Carter, Lin 12
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 11
Merritt, A. 10
Offutt, Andrew J. 10
Tolkien, J.R.R. 12
Wellman, Manley Wade 12
Williamson, Jack 14
Zelazny, Roger 12


----------



## Bradley Hindman (Sep 7, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 15
Carter, Lin 12
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 11
Merritt, A. 10
Offutt, Andrew J. 10
*Tolkien, J.R.R. 12 - 2 = 10*
Wellman, Manley Wade 12
Williamson, Jack 14
*Zelazny, Roger 12 + 1 = 13*


----------



## lowkey13 (Sep 7, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


----------



## TiwazTyrsfist (Sep 7, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 15
Carter, Lin 12
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 11
Merritt, A. 10
Offutt, Andrew J. 10
*Tolkien, J.R.R. 8*
Wellman, Manley Wade 12
Williamson, Jack 14
*Zelazny, Roger 14*


----------



## Dausuul (Sep 7, 2018)

*Burroughs, Edgar Rice 13*
Carter, Lin 12
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 11
Merritt, A. 10
Offutt, Andrew J. 10
Tolkien, J.R.R. 8
Wellman, Manley Wade 12
Williamson, Jack 14
*Zelazny, Roger 15*


----------



## OB1 (Sep 7, 2018)

lowkey13 said:


> The first five are classics.
> 
> After that? Don't bother (IMO).




Good to know. Picked up Book 1 on audio for my commute and really enjoyed the first hour. Can’t believe I hadn’t read him before now, right up my alley.


----------



## Lord Mhoram (Sep 7, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 13
    Carter, Lin 12
    Dunsany, Lord 15
  Leiber, Fritz 9
    Merritt, A. 10
    Offutt, Andrew J. 10
  Tolkien, J.R.R. 9
    Wellman, Manley Wade 12
    Williamson, Jack 14
    Zelazny, Roger 15


----------



## Nikosandros (Sep 7, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 13
    Carter, Lin 12
    Dunsany, Lord 15
  Leiber, Fritz 9
    Merritt, A. 10
 Offutt, Andrew J. 8
  Tolkien, J.R.R. 10
    Wellman, Manley Wade 12
    Williamson, Jack 14
    Zelazny, Roger 15


----------



## rczarnec (Sep 7, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 13
Carter, Lin 12
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 10
Merritt, A. 10
Offutt, Andrew J. 8
Tolkien, J.R.R. 10
Wellman, Manley Wade 10
Williamson, Jack 14
Zelazny, Roger 15


----------



## CleverNickName (Sep 7, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 13 My mom is in town, and she won't let me downvote ERB.
Carter, Lin 12
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 10
Merritt, A. 10
*Offutt, Andrew J. 8-2=6* Sorry Andy, you know I love you.
*Tolkien, J.R.R. 10+1=11*
Wellman, Manley Wade 10
Williamson, Jack 14
Zelazny, Roger 15


----------



## Ed Laprade (Sep 7, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 13 +1 = 14
Carter, Lin 12
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 10
Merritt, A. 10
Offutt, Andrew J. 6
Tolkien, J.R.R. 11 -2 = 9
Wellman, Manley Wade 10
Williamson, Jack 14
Zelazny, Roger 15


----------



## Harzel (Sep 7, 2018)

rczarnec said:


> Burroughs, Edgar Rice 13
> Carter, Lin 12
> Dunsany, Lord 15
> Leiber, Fritz 10
> ...




OMG! Someone who upvoted Lieber and didn't downvote Tolkien!  Have some xp.


----------



## Harzel (Sep 7, 2018)

lowkey13 said:


> Burroughs, Edgar Rice 15
> Carter, Lin 12
> Dunsany, Lord 15
> Leiber, Fritz 12
> ...




Uh huh.  And do you remember the point?
You keep reliving it _until you get it right!_


----------



## lowkey13 (Sep 7, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


----------



## Lanefan (Sep 7, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 13
Carter, Lin 12
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 10
Merritt, A. 8
Offutt, Andrew J. 6
Tolkien, J.R.R. 10
Wellman, Manley Wade 10
Williamson, Jack 14
Zelazny, Roger 15

 [MENTION=6799753]lowkey13[/MENTION] - may I propose that the next one of these vote-downs be much the same as this one except using more recent fantasy authors, with Tolkein included as a comparison point.  List might start with something like (and I'll miss some, for sure):

Bradley, Eddings, Jordan, Martin, Salvatore, Hickman-Weis, Brooks, Gaiman, Tolkein, Goodkind, Lackey, etc. (this dead brain can't think of many right now)


----------



## lowkey13 (Sep 7, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


----------



## Sacrosanct (Sep 7, 2018)

Lanefan said:


> Bradley, Eddings, Jordan, Martin, Salvatore, Hickman-Weis, Brooks, *Gaiman*, Tolkein, Goodkind, Lackey, etc. (this dead brain can't think of many right now)




Oh Gosh.  If we thought people were unreasonably passionate about Planescape and Tolkien, just wait until people get to vote on Gaiman...  

You should also include Rothfuss, so people can vote him down for not finishing his series


----------



## Reynard (Sep 7, 2018)

Sacrosanct said:


> You should also include Rothfuss, so people can vote him down for not finishing his series




I can't blame him. I couldn't finish his first book.


----------



## Lanefan (Sep 7, 2018)

lowkey13 said:


> It's a great idea- I try to have the starting list be something "objective," or, at least, someone else's list (like this was). That way, people aren't caught up in a dispute as to what should, and shouldn't, be on the list.
> 
> If y'all want to brainstorm some way to:
> 
> ...



On further review I think it might have to be two lists (i.e. two different votedowns) - one for authors mostly active (or who did their best or best-known works) in the late 70s-80s-90s and another for authors mostly active in years starting with a 2 - simply because there's so bloody many that are probably worth including.

Then a fourth votedown could take the top three from each and put 'em into a winner-take-all finals! 

Some more inclusions:

70s-90s - K Kurtz, A McCaffrey, E Moon, G G Kay, H Turtledove, J Whyte
2000s - S Lynch, K Miller

And we could argue all day about J K Rowling...


----------



## Ralif Redhammer (Sep 7, 2018)

We could always take the 5e Appendix N and go with that (removing the crossover with the original, to avoid re-litigating the same authors).



Lanefan said:


> @_*lowkey13*_ - may I propose that the next one of these vote-downs be much the same as this one except using more recent fantasy authors, with Tolkein included as a comparison point.  List might start with something like (and I'll miss some, for sure):
> 
> Bradley, Eddings, Jordan, Martin, Salvatore, Hickman-Weis, Brooks, Gaiman, Tolkein, Goodkind, Lackey, etc. (this dead brain can't think of many right now)


----------



## lowkey13 (Sep 7, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


----------



## Parmandur (Sep 7, 2018)

lowkey13 said:


> It's a great idea- I try to have the starting list be something "objective," or, at least, someone else's list (like this was). That way, people aren't caught up in a dispute as to what should, and shouldn't, be on the list.
> 
> If y'all want to brainstorm some way to:
> 
> ...




I agree with [MENTION=30438]Ralif Redhammer[/MENTION] above, using the 5E PHB Appendix E with the Appendix N authors removed would be fun. Appendix E is both a better, and yet more uneven list, methinks.


----------



## Parmandur (Sep 7, 2018)

lowkey13 said:


> That works. Appendix E from 5e, subtracting the original Appendix N authors.




Jinx, I owe you a beer.


----------



## Bradley Hindman (Sep 7, 2018)

lowkey13 said:


> It's a great idea- I try to have the starting list be something "objective," or, at least, someone else's list (like this was). That way, people aren't caught up in a dispute as to what should, and shouldn't, be on the list.
> 
> If y'all want to brainstorm some way to:
> 
> ...




How about the winners of the Hugo award for best book covering the years in this millennium.


----------



## Prakriti (Sep 7, 2018)

I also thought of Appendix E, but when I saw that it retained all of the original Appendix N, I gave up on the idea. Simply removing the Appendix N authors is a great solution. 

Also, don't forget that the 5E DMG has its own inspirational reading list. But it's far less exciting. 

The craziest idea I had was Survivor Winners Survivor... All the winners of previous Survivor threads competing against each other. But talk about comparing apples to oranges. I don't think it would work. But you could do the Top 5 finishers of two similar lists. Top 5 Xanathar's Subclasses & Top 5 SCAG subclasses maybe?

Some other ideas:

9th Level Spells
Schools of Magic
Unearthed Arcana (all the .pdf releases so far)
Languages
Environment (as in the "Creatures by Environment" lists in the DMG and _Volo's Guide_ -- Arctic, Coastal, Desert, Forest, etc.)

Some of these might have been done already.


----------



## Prakriti (Sep 7, 2018)

Reynard said:


> I can't blame him. I couldn't finish his first book.



Don't you love books that start off reasonably well, then put the whole story on hold so the main character can tell us the story of his life, from the time that he was a small child, in one giant 600-page flashback?

Because I sure as hell don't.


----------



## Maxperson (Sep 7, 2018)

Sacrosanct said:


> That was just one thread.  We've had the same thing every six months or so.  You're a prolific poster who has participated in these threads.  In every thread, people have talked about Gary's comments on this topic, so yeah, it is common knowledge if it's talked about every time it comes up.  I'm not expecting you to do the research for me.  I even provided you a link that quotes him from as early as 1974 on the topic (not to mention the many times he was asked about it since).  Even after I showed you a direct link, you're still asking me to provide proof?  Gary's feelings on Tolkien is about as common knowledge as Gary being ousted from TSR.  Just because you're claiming (a claim I don't believe for reasons I just gave) you never knew about it doesn't mean it's not common knowledge.
> 
> So sorry, I'm not buying it.  You don't seem to be even reading everything I read, and I have a hard time believing that you, as a prolific active poster who has been active in these past threads on this topic, are trying to say you have no idea what Gary said.
> 
> So have a good day.  I'm not going to continue to have a conversation who doesn't bother to read all of my posts.




First, I missed the second link in that post of yours.  Sue me.  I only saw the one and I wasn't going to slog through a thread for you.  Second, I just went back and looked at the second link and it shows nothing like what you are claiming here.  There were two quotes from Gygax, neither of which say that Tolkien wasn't a foundational influence.  

The first quote just says that there are other authors he considered as well, which we all know from the list we are voting on.  the second quote says that the heroes were kinda boring, but other than the ranger class lifted almost directly from Aragorn, I'm not saying that the heroes are the part of the foundation he took from Tolkien.  Then the author of that article goes on to say that Gygax would often tell us which parts of Tolkien he took and which he didn't.

Your link doesn't prove your claim, and your continued "common knowledge" statement is nothing more than an Appeal to Popularity.  Lots of things that are "common knowledge" are incorrect.  Feel free to leave the conversation or stay, but do you really want to leave the discussion on a fallacy?


----------



## Maxperson (Sep 7, 2018)

lowkey13 said:


> That works. Appendix E from 5e, subtracting the original Appendix N authors.




An appendectomy?


----------



## Invisible Stalker (Sep 7, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 13
Carter, Lin 12
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 10
Merritt, A. 8
Offutt, Andrew J. 6
Tolkien, J.R.R. 11
Wellman, Manley Wade 10
Williamson, Jack 14
Zelazny, Roger 13


----------



## werecorpse (Sep 8, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 13
Carter, Lin 12
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 10
Merritt, A. 8
Offutt, Andrew J. 6-2=4
Tolkien, J.R.R. 11+1=12
Wellman, Manley Wade 10
Williamson, Jack 14
Zelazny, Roger 13


----------



## Parmandur (Sep 8, 2018)

werecorpse said:


> Burroughs, Edgar Rice 13
> Carter, Lin 12
> Dunsany, Lord 15
> Leiber, Fritz 10
> ...


----------



## Tallifer (Sep 8, 2018)

Ralif Redhammer said:


> We could always take the 5e Appendix N and go with that (removing the crossover with the original, to avoid re-litigating the same authors).




I think that would be a great follow-up contest!


----------



## chrisrtld (Sep 8, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 13
Carter, Lin 12
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 10
Merritt, A. 8
Offutt, Andrew J. 0
Tolkien, J.R.R. 14
Wellman, Manley Wade 10
Williamson, Jack 14
Zelazny, Roger 13


----------



## bid (Sep 8, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 13
Carter, Lin 12
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 10
Merritt, A. 6
Tolkien, J.R.R. 14
Wellman, Manley Wade 10
Williamson, Jack 14
Zelazny, Roger 14


----------



## Yardiff (Sep 8, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 13+1=14
Carter, Lin 12
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 10
Merritt, A. 6
Tolkien, J.R.R. 14-2=12
Wellman, Manley Wade 10
Williamson, Jack 14
Zelazny, Roger 14


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Sep 8, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 14
Carter, Lin 12
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 11
Merritt, A. 6
Tolkien, J.R.R. 10
Wellman, Manley Wade 10
Williamson, Jack 14
Zelazny, Roger 14


----------



## Harzel (Sep 8, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 14
Carter, Lin 12
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 11
Merritt, A. 4
Tolkien, J.R.R. 11
Wellman, Manley Wade 10
Williamson, Jack 14
Zelazny, Roger 14


----------



## Tallifer (Sep 8, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 14
Carter, Lin 12
Dunsany, Lord 15
Leiber, Fritz 11
Merritt, A. 4
Tolkien, J.R.R. 12
Wellman, Manley Wade 10
Williamson, Jack 14
Zelazny, Roger 12


----------



## tglassy (Sep 8, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 14
Carter, Lin 12
Dunsany, Lord 13
Leiber, Fritz 11
Merritt, A. 4
Tolkien, J.R.R. 13
Wellman, Manley Wade 10
Williamson, Jack 14
Zelazny, Roger 12


----------



## Nagol (Sep 8, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 14
Carter, Lin 12
Dunsany, Lord 13
Leiber, Fritz 11
Merritt, A. 4
Tolkien, J.R.R. 13-2=11
Wellman, Manley Wade 10
Williamson, Jack 14
Zelazny, Roger 12+1=13


----------



## lowkey13 (Sep 8, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


----------



## Blue (Sep 8, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 14
Carter, Lin 12
Dunsany, Lord 13
Leiber, Fritz 11
Merritt, A. 4
*Tolkien, J.R.R. 10*
*Wellman, Manley Wade 8*
Williamson, Jack 14
Zelazny, Roger 14


----------



## OB1 (Sep 8, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 14
Carter, Lin 12
Dunsany, Lord 13
Leiber, Fritz 11
Merritt, A. 4
Tolkien, J.R.R. 8
Wellman, Manley Wade 8
Williamson, Jack 14
Zelazny, Roger 15


----------



## Grognerd (Sep 8, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 14
Carter, Lin 12
Dunsany, Lord 13
Leiber, Fritz 11
Merritt, A. 4
Tolkien, J.R.R. 9
Wellman, Manley Wade 8
Williamson, Jack 14
Zelazny, Roger 13

More of the same.


----------



## Maxperson (Sep 8, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 14
Carter, Lin 12
Dunsany, Lord 13
Leiber, Fritz 11
Merritt, A. 2
Tolkien, J.R.R. 10
Wellman, Manley Wade 8
Williamson, Jack 14
Zelazny, Roger 13


----------



## Sacrosanct (Sep 8, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 14
Carter, Lin 12
Dunsany, Lord 13
Leiber, Fritz 12
Merritt, A. 2
Tolkien, J.R.R. 8
Wellman, Manley Wade 8
Williamson, Jack 14
Zelazny, Roger 13


----------



## Sacrosanct (Sep 8, 2018)

Maxperson said:


> First, I missed the second link in that post of yours.  Sue me.  I only saw the one and I wasn't going to slog through a thread for you.  Second, I just went back and looked at the second link and it shows nothing like what you are claiming here.  There were two quotes from Gygax, neither of which say that Tolkien wasn't a foundational influence.
> 
> The first quote just says that there are other authors he considered as well, which we all know from the list we are voting on.  the second quote says that the heroes were kinda boring, but other than the ranger class lifted almost directly from Aragorn, I'm not saying that the heroes are the part of the foundation he took from Tolkien.  Then the author of that article goes on to say that Gygax would often tell us which parts of Tolkien he took and which he didn't.
> 
> Your link doesn't prove your claim, and your continued "common knowledge" statement is nothing more than an Appeal to Popularity.  Lots of things that are "common knowledge" are incorrect.  Feel free to leave the conversation or stay, but do you really want to leave the discussion on a fallacy?




One of the biggest arguments being presented here was "Dude, Tolkien was the biggest influence because Gary mentioned him by name in OD&D."  And that link I presented has Gary, way back in 1974 even, saying why he included Tolkien by name, and that he also included others by name, and forgot to include even others by name as a matter of oversite.  That directly counters what one of the main arguments were in this thread about Tolkien was the biggest influence because Gary literally explained how Tolkien was just another name on the list of ones he gave--no more or no less impactful.  And that's not even considering all the other number of times he addressed this topic since 1974.

Well, at least now I know you're being deliberately disingenuous now.


----------



## rczarnec (Sep 8, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 14
Carter, Lin 12
Dunsany, Lord 13
Leiber, Fritz 12
Merritt, A. 2
Tolkien, J.R.R. 9
Wellman, Manley Wade 8
Williamson, Jack 12
Zelazny, Roger 13


----------



## Bradley Hindman (Sep 8, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 14
Carter, Lin 12
Dunsany, Lord 13
*Leiber, Fritz 12 + 1 = 13*
Merritt, A. 2
*Tolkien, J.R.R. 9 - 2 = 7*
Wellman, Manley Wade 8
Williamson, Jack 12
Zelazny, Roger 13


----------



## Maxperson (Sep 8, 2018)

Sacrosanct said:


> One of the biggest arguments being presented here was "Dude, Tolkien was the biggest influence because Gary mentioned him by name in OD&D."  And that link I presented has Gary, way back in 1974 even, saying why he included Tolkien by name, and that he also included others by name, and forgot to include even others by name as a matter of oversite.  That directly counters what one of the main arguments were in this thread about Tolkien was the biggest influence because Gary literally explained how Tolkien was just another name on the list of ones he gave--no more or no less impactful.  And that's not even considering all the other number of times he addressed this topic since 1974.




Being one among many does not making him equal or smaller.  It just means that there were a lot of influences.  You among others have been claiming that he is not a foundational influence.  He is and those quotes you provided prove it.  Hell, the ranger class alone proves it.  Classes are one of the most foundational parts of the game.



> Well, at least now I know you're being deliberately disingenuous now.




Pot meet kettle.  Look in a mirror.  <insert other sayings that mean the same thing>


----------



## TiwazTyrsfist (Sep 8, 2018)

*Burroughs, Edgar Rice 15*
Carter, Lin 12
Dunsany, Lord 13
Leiber, Fritz 13
Merritt, A. 2
*Tolkien, J.R.R. 5*
Wellman, Manley Wade 8
Williamson, Jack 12
Zelazny, Roger 13


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Sep 8, 2018)

Maxperson said:


> You among others have been claiming that he is not a foundational influence.




Strawman strawman strawman

You (amongst others) have been the Tolkien is the foremost and premiant influence, to the extent that nothing much else matters.

Others have been arguing against_ that_.


----------



## Grognerd (Sep 8, 2018)

Sacrosanct said:


> Well, at least now I know you're being deliberately disingenuous now.






Maxperson said:


> Pot meet kettle.  Look in a mirror.  <insert other sayings that mean the same thing>




Easy guys. Let's face it, based upon how people are voting, most of the people still in this thread are being disingenuous. Anyone claiming Tolkien was not a significant influence is quantifiably wrong. That said, he is consistently getting downvotes because people have axes to grind or just spite against other posters. And that's okay, since it's well within the "rules" of this post. Really, no need for anyone to get mad. I'm not mad at lowkey, and he keeps upvoting my downvote target!  Relax, and have fun.


----------



## Maxperson (Sep 8, 2018)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Strawman strawman strawman
> 
> You (amongst others) have been the Tolkien is the foremost and premiant influence,* to the extent that nothing much else matters*.




ROFL  Never said that.  If you're going to call out a Strawman, try not to engage in one as you do.



> Others have been arguing against_ that_.




You should pay better attention when you read.  The claim that he was not a foundational influence has been explicitly and repeatedly made.


----------



## Maxperson (Sep 8, 2018)

Grognerd said:


> Easy guys. Let's face it, based upon how people are voting, most of the people still in this thread are being disingenuous. Anyone claiming Tolkien was not a significant influence is quantifiably wrong. That said, he is consistently getting downvotes because people have axes to grind or just spite against other posters. And that's okay, since it's well within the "rules" of this post. Really, no need for anyone to get mad. I'm not mad at lowkey, and he keeps upvoting my downvote target!  Relax, and have fun.




I'm not upset.  I just give what I get.  The debate was civil until he took it in a downward direction.


----------



## Prakriti (Sep 8, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 15
Carter, Lin 12
Dunsany, Lord 13
Leiber, Fritz 13
Merritt, A. 2
Tolkien, J.R.R. 6
Wellman, Manley Wade 8
Williamson, Jack 12
Zelazny, Roger 11


----------



## Tyler Do'Urden (Sep 8, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 15
Carter, Lin 10
Dunsany, Lord 13
Leiber, Fritz 13
Merritt, A. 2
Tolkien, J.R.R. 7
Wellman, Manley Wade 8
Williamson, Jack 12
Zelazny, Roger 11


----------



## Lord Mhoram (Sep 8, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 15
Carter, Lin 10
Dunsany, Lord 13
Leiber, Fritz 11
Merritt, A. 2
Tolkien, J.R.R. 7
Wellman, Manley Wade 8
Williamson, Jack 12
Zelazny, Roger 12


----------



## Dausuul (Sep 8, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 13
Carter, Lin 10
Dunsany, Lord 13
Leiber, Fritz 11
Merritt, A. 2
Tolkien, J.R.R. 7
Wellman, Manley Wade 8
Williamson, Jack 12
Zelazny, Roger 13


----------



## Lanefan (Sep 8, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 13
    Carter, Lin 10
    Dunsany, Lord 13
    Leiber, Fritz 11
Merritt, A. 0 - and bang goes another one I've never heard of...
Tolkien, J.R.R. 8
    Wellman, Manley Wade 8
    Williamson, Jack 12
    Zelazny, Roger 13


----------



## Ed Laprade (Sep 8, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 13 +1 = 14
Carter, Lin 10
Dunsany, Lord 13
Leiber, Fritz 11
Tolkien, J.R.R. 8 -2 = 6
Wellman, Manley Wade 8
Williamson, Jack 12
Zelazny, Roger 13


----------



## Nikosandros (Sep 8, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice  14
Carter, Lin 8
Dunsany, Lord 13
Leiber, Fritz 11
Tolkien, J.R.R.  7
Wellman, Manley Wade 8
Williamson, Jack 12
Zelazny, Roger 13


----------



## Invisible Stalker (Sep 8, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 14
Carter, Lin 8
Dunsany, Lord 13
Leiber, Fritz 11
Tolkien, J.R.R. 8
Wellman, Manley Wade 8
Williamson, Jack 12
Zelazny, Roger 11


----------



## Sacrosanct (Sep 8, 2018)

Just so you know, an 18 year old kid came up with the ranger and wanted it in the game. Not Gary, not Dave. Yes, Aragorn inspired said teenager, but that in no way proves that Tolkien had more of an influence on the creation of the game. It’s literal a fan creation. 

You seem to keep making assumptions and claims that are wrong Maxperson. I’m also becoming convinced you didn’t even bother to read that article I linked to. When you make the claim because Gary mentioned Tolkien by name in OD&D as proof Tolkien had the most influence, and Gary’s own words way back in 1974 that literally say that isn’t the case, then yes. It is proof your claim and assumption were wrong.  It directly refutes what’s you claimed


----------



## CleverNickName (Sep 8, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 14
*Carter, Lin 8-2=6*
Dunsany, Lord 13
Leiber, Fritz 11
*Tolkien, J.R.R. 8+1=9*
Wellman, Manley Wade 8
Williamson, Jack 12
Zelazny, Roger 11


----------



## werecorpse (Sep 9, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 14
Carter, Lin 6
Dunsany, Lord 13
Leiber, Fritz 11
Tolkien, J.R.R. 9+1=10
Wellman, Manley Wade 8-2=6
Williamson, Jack 12
Zelazny, Roger 11


----------



## tglassy (Sep 9, 2018)

Y’all know that no one really cares about how much influence Tolkien had on a dead guy’s obsolete game, right?  No disrespect meant, but I’m pretty sure you’re beating a dead horse here. Can you please take your love spat to a private room, or at least a thread where it’s relevant?


----------



## Parmandur (Sep 9, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 14
Carter, Lin 6
Dunsany, Lord 13
Leiber, Fritz 11
Tolkien, J.R.R. 10+1=11
Wellman, Manley Wade 6-2=4
Williamson, Jack 12
Zelazny, Roger 11


----------



## chrisrtld (Sep 9, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 14
*Carter, Lin 4*
Dunsany, Lord 13
Leiber, Fritz 11
*Tolkien, J.R.R. 12*
Wellman, Manley Wade 4
Williamson, Jack 12
Zelazny, Roger 11


----------



## Maxperson (Sep 9, 2018)

Sacrosanct said:


> Just so you know, an 18 year old kid came up with the ranger and wanted it in the game. Not Gary, not Dave. Yes, Aragorn inspired said teenager, but that in no way proves that Tolkien had more of an influence on the creation of the game. It’s literal a fan creation.




And he just forced Gary to accept it did he?



> You seem to keep making assumptions and claims that are wrong Maxperson. I’m also becoming convinced you didn’t even bother to read that article I linked to. When you make the claim because Gary mentioned Tolkien by name in OD&D as proof Tolkien had the most influence, and Gary’s own words way back in 1974 that literally say that isn’t the case, then yes. It is proof your claim and assumption were wrong.  It directly refutes what’s you claimed




Read it again.


----------



## Parmandur (Sep 9, 2018)

Reading Gygax with a hermeneutic of suspicion is wise, particularly when lawsuits and hard feelings are involved. However, arguing about it is slightly sillier than our silly game that we are playing, guys...


----------



## Grognerd (Sep 9, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 14
Carter, Lin 4
Dunsany, Lord 13
Leiber, Fritz 11
*Tolkien, J.R.R. 13*
Wellman, Manley Wade 4
Williamson, Jack 12
*Zelazny, Roger 9*

A new day, another vote! Had to beat the haters in!


----------



## Dausuul (Sep 9, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 14
Carter, Lin 4
Dunsany, Lord 13
Leiber, Fritz 11
Tolkien, J.R.R. 11
Wellman, Manley Wade 4
Williamson, Jack 12
Zelazny, Roger 10



Grognerd said:


> A new day, another vote! Had to beat the haters in!




My hate has made me powerful.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Sep 9, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 14
Carter, Lin 4
Dunsany, Lord 13
Leiber, Fritz 11
Tolkien, J.R.R. 9
Wellman, Manley Wade 4
Williamson, Jack 12
Zelazny, Roger 11


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Sep 9, 2018)

tglassy said:


> Y’all know that no one really cares about how much influence Tolkien had on a dead guy’s obsolete game, right?  No disrespect meant, but I’m pretty sure you’re beating a dead horse here. Can you please take your love spat to a private room, or at least a thread where it’s relevant?




It is pretty obvious that certain persons are so convinced of their own righteousness that they will never let that happen.

Which is why I switched to voting against Tolkien: no matter how great he is, he has clearly had a negative impact on certain persons open-mindedness that he would find utterly horrific.


----------



## Harzel (Sep 9, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 14
Carter, Lin 4
Dunsany, Lord 13
Leiber, Fritz 11
Tolkien, J.R.R. 10
Wellman, Manley Wade 2
Williamson, Jack 12
Zelazny, Roger 11


----------



## Nikosandros (Sep 9, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 14
Carter, Lin 2
Dunsany, Lord 13
Leiber, Fritz 11
Tolkien, J.R.R. 11
Wellman, Manley Wade 2
Williamson, Jack 12
Zelazny, Roger 11


----------



## Tallifer (Sep 9, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 14
Carter, Lin 2
Dunsany, Lord 13
Leiber, Fritz 11
Tolkien, J.R.R. 12
Wellman, Manley Wade 2
Williamson, Jack 12
Zelazny, Roger 9


----------



## Nagol (Sep 9, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 14
Carter, Lin 2
Dunsany, Lord 13
Leiber, Fritz 11
Tolkien, J.R.R. 12-2=10
Wellman, Manley Wade 2
Williamson, Jack 12
Zelazny, Roger 9+1=10


----------



## Yardiff (Sep 9, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 14
Carter, Lin 2
Dunsany, Lord 13
Leiber, Fritz 11+1=12
Tolkien, J.R.R. 10-2=8
Wellman, Manley Wade 2
Williamson, Jack 12
Zelazny, Roger 10


----------



## tglassy (Sep 9, 2018)

Paul Farquhar said:


> It is pretty obvious that certain persons are so convinced of their own righteousness that they will never let that happen.
> 
> Which is why I switched to voting against Tolkien: no matter how great he is, he has clearly had a negative impact on certain persons open-mindedness that he would find utterly horrific.




And thou shalt be named Boromir, for thou hast betrayed us. 

So...the problem, in your view, is that Tolkien created a story so powerful, one that touched its readers so deeply that it created a bond within them that makes them want to defend it to their dying breath...and for some reason this is a bad thing?  It only proves just how amazing his work is. 

I’ve seen viciousness on both sides. I’ve actually seen more in the anti Tolkien than the Tolkien fans. Your argument makes no sense, Boromir. 

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 14
Carter, Lin 2
Dunsany, Lord 13
Leiber, Fritz 12
Tolkien, J.R.R. 8 + 1 = 9
Wellman, Manley Wade 2 - 2 = 0
Williamson, Jack 12
Zelazny, Roger 10


----------



## Bradley Hindman (Sep 9, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 14
Carter, Lin 2
Dunsany, Lord 13
Leiber, Fritz 12
*Tolkien, J.R.R. 9 - 2 = 7*
Williamson, Jack 12
*Zelazny, Roger 10+1=11*


----------



## OB1 (Sep 9, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 14
Carter, Lin 2
Dunsany, Lord 13
Leiber, Fritz 12
Tolkien, J.R.R. 5
Williamson, Jack 12
Zelazny, Roger 12

While there is no denying his influence on the game's design and popularity, D&D will always be more than a medieval western european fantasy.  If anything Tolkien's popularity has tended to keep the game too tied to that aesthetic (at least for my taste).


----------



## Grognerd (Sep 9, 2018)

tglassy said:


> So...the problem, in your view, is that Tolkien created a story so powerful, one that touched its readers so deeply that it created a bond within them that makes them want to defend it to their dying breath...and for some reason this is a bad thing?  It only proves just how amazing his work is.
> 
> I’ve seen viciousness on both sides. I’ve actually seen more in the anti Tolkien than the Tolkien fans.




Pretty much this. I mean, it's the anti-profs saying things like this:


Paul Farquhar said:


> Which is why I switched to voting against Tolkien: no matter how great he is, he has clearly had a negative impact on certain persons open-mindedness that he would find utterly horrific.




And seriously, that's just petty. When you are calling him great and still insisting on down voting him because of an Internet argument, there's no other way I know how to describe it. A whole lot of you guys are seriously sucking the fun out of this whole experiment.

Quite frankly I think that some people on both sides of the Tolkien aisle need to step back and chill out before they post.


----------



## Maxperson (Sep 9, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 14
Carter, Lin 0
Dunsany, Lord 13
Leiber, Fritz 12
Tolkien, J.R.R. 6
Williamson, Jack 12
Zelazny, Roger 12

As long as this comes down to Leiber, Tolkien or Zelazny, I'll be happy.


----------



## rczarnec (Sep 9, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 14
Dunsany, Lord 11
Leiber, Fritz 12
Tolkien, J.R.R. 7
Williamson, Jack 12
Zelazny, Roger 12


----------



## Reynard (Sep 9, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 14
Dunsany, Lord 11
Leiber, Fritz 12
Tolkien, J.R.R. 7+1=8
Williamson, Jack 12-2=10
Zelazny, Roger 12


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Sep 9, 2018)

tglassy said:


> So...the problem, in your view, is that Tolkien created a story so powerful, one that touched its readers so deeply that it created a bond within them that makes them want to defend it to their dying breath...and for some reason this is a bad thing?



Yes. A VERY bad thing. Because it is a very short step from being willing to die for something to being willing to kill for something.



> As for the inner meaning or "message", it has in the intention of the author none.



- JRRT


----------



## Maxperson (Sep 9, 2018)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Yes. A VERY bad thing. Because it is a very short step from being willing to die for something to being willing to kill for something.




You can't seriously believe that anyone here is like that, so it must have been a joke.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Sep 9, 2018)

Maxperson said:


> You can't seriously believe that anyone here is like that, so it must have been a joke.




Fanaticism is never a joking matter.


----------



## Maxperson (Sep 9, 2018)

Took it private.


----------



## Sacrosanct (Sep 9, 2018)

tglassy said:


> I’ve seen viciousness on both sides. I’ve actually seen more in the anti Tolkien than the Tolkien fans. Your argument makes no sense, Boromir.




_You _were the one to call anyone who voted Tolkien down as a hater, inferring there couldn't be any other reason why someone would vote that way.  Long before anyone else complained about pro Tolkien votes.  

The cognitive dissonance is strong with  you.


----------



## Sacrosanct (Sep 9, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 14
Dunsany, Lord 11
Leiber, Fritz 13
Tolkien, J.R.R. 6
Williamson, Jack 10
Zelazny, Roger 12


----------



## werecorpse (Sep 9, 2018)

Sacrosanct said:


> Burroughs, Edgar Rice 14
> Dunsany, Lord 11
> Leiber, Fritz 13
> Tolkien, J.R.R. 7+1=6
> ...




Correction I think
Reynard put Tolkien to 8 so 8+1=9
Reynard Also put Williamson to 10 so 10-2=8


----------



## rczarnec (Sep 9, 2018)

Adjusting for missed vote #836) and a math error (#842).

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 14
Dunsany, Lord 11
Leiber, Fritz 12
Tolkien, J.R.R. 9
Williamson, Jack 8
Zelazny, Roger 12


----------



## tglassy (Sep 9, 2018)

Oh my goodness. The use of “hater” was a joke. It was all in good fun. Even sending out emails was all in good fun. It was light teasing.  Are you seriously calling that vicious?  

And seriously?  Willing to die for to willing to kill for?  Seriously?  OMFG. When I said willing to die for, IT WAS A F******* HYPERBOLE!  Seriously, it’s like you people don’t understand the nuances of the freaking English language or something!  Are you seriously, SERIOUSLY downvoting someone in a pointless, worthless competition because you believe that if you don’t, Tolkien fans are going to take up arms and shoot people?!?!?!?!?!?!?  What the hell!!!!!!


----------



## Parmandur (Sep 9, 2018)

tglassy said:


> Oh my goodness. The use of “hater” was a joke. It was all in good fun. Even sending out emails was all in good fun. It was light teasing.  Are you seriously calling that vicious?
> 
> And seriously?  Willing to die for to willing to kill for?  Seriously?  OMFG. When I said willing to die for, IT WAS A F******* HYPERBOLE!  Seriously, it’s like you people don’t understand the nuances of the freaking English language or something!  Are you seriously, SERIOUSLY downvoting someone in a pointless, worthless competition because you believe that if you don’t, Tolkien fans are going to take up arms and shoot people?!?!?!?!?!?!?  What the hell!!!!!!




Dude, your posting and messaging has not been helpful. Lord Dunsany will probably win, chill out.


----------



## Maxperson (Sep 9, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> Dude, your posting and messaging has not been helpful. Lord Dunsany will probably win, chill out.




And someone calling people who like Tolkien fanatics is helpful?


----------



## SkidAce (Sep 9, 2018)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Fanaticism is never a joking matter.




Sometimes fanaticism is the fault of the fanatic, and not their inspiration.


----------



## Sacrosanct (Sep 9, 2018)

rczarnec said:


> Adjusting for missed vote #836) and a math error (#842).
> 
> Burroughs, Edgar Rice 14
> Dunsany, Lord 11
> ...




My bad, I forgot to delete the +/- when I pasted (which obviously confused the heck out of everyone lol).  I downvoted Tolkien and upvoted LIeber, so it should be:

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 14
Dunsany, Lord 11
Leiber, Fritz 13
Tolkien, J.R.R. 6
Williamson, Jack 10
Zelazny, Roger 12


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Sep 9, 2018)

SkidAce said:


> Sometimes fanaticism is the fault of the fanatic, and not their inspiration.




It's _always_ the fault of the fanatic. And no fanatic believes they are a fanatic - it's everyone else who has it wrong. A lack of self-awareness lies at the root, and that is what I believe is important to call out.


----------



## Grognerd (Sep 9, 2018)

Paul Farquhar said:


> A lack of self-awareness lies at the root, and that is what I believe is important to call out.




And in this self-appointed role in the present thread... "Physician heal thyself."


----------



## Maxperson (Sep 9, 2018)

SkidAce said:


> Sometimes fanaticism is the fault of the fanatic, and not their inspiration.




Yeah, but there are no fanatics here. At least not with regard to this topic. A bunch of guys upvoting the author that they like in a thread where you are supposed to do that aren't fanatics.


----------



## Parmandur (Sep 9, 2018)

Maxperson said:


> And someone calling people who like Tolkien fanatics is helpful?




Nope, but Paul was upvoting Tolkien before tglassy started in with his antics. This has cost Tolkien serious points in the game, and is a bad strategem.


----------



## Maxperson (Sep 9, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> Nope, but Paul was upvoting Tolkien before tglassy started in with his antics. This has cost Tolkien serious points in the game, and is a bad strategem.




Maybe.  I've been in these threads for a very, very long time, though.  In my experience, an entry getting a lot of votes attracts attention sooner or later and people start defensively ganging up and downvoting that entry so that their favorite has a chance.  The antics may have been the trigger this thread, but I don't think the outcome was altered at all.


----------



## Prakriti (Sep 9, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 14
Dunsany, Lord 11
Leiber, Fritz 13
Tolkien, J.R.R. 7
Williamson, Jack 10
Zelazny, Roger 10

It would be so much easier to double-check vote accuracy if we didn't have to wade through pages of cat-fighting. Just sayin'.


----------



## Maxperson (Sep 9, 2018)

Prakriti said:


> Burroughs, Edgar Rice 14
> Dunsany, Lord 11
> Leiber, Fritz 13
> Tolkien, J.R.R. 7
> ...




Here.  Let me help you out.

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 0
Dunsany, Lord 0
Leiber, Fritz 0
Tolkien, J.R.R. 1 beeeellion votes.
Williamson, Jack 0
Zelazny, Roger 0


----------



## Lord Mhoram (Sep 9, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 14
Dunsany, Lord 11
Leiber, Fritz 11
Tolkien, J.R.R. 7
Williamson, Jack 10
Zelazny, Roger 11


----------



## Blue (Sep 9, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 14
Dunsany, Lord 9
Leiber, Fritz 11
Tolkien, J.R.R. 7
Williamson, Jack 10
Zelazny, Roger 12


----------



## lowkey13 (Sep 9, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


----------



## CleverNickName (Sep 9, 2018)

*Burroughs, Edgar Rice 14-2=12*
Dunsany, Lord 9
Leiber, Fritz 11
*Tolkien, J.R.R. 5+1=6*
Williamson, Jack 10
Zelazny, Roger 13


----------



## Hriston (Sep 9, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 12
Dunsany, Lord 9
Leiber, Fritz 11
Tolkien, J.R.R. 7
Williamson, Jack 10
Zelazny, Roger 11


----------



## Ed Laprade (Sep 9, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 12 +1 = 13
Dunsany, Lord 9
Leiber, Fritz 11
Tolkien, J.R.R. 7 -2 = 5
Williamson, Jack 10
Zelazny, Roger 11


----------



## happyhermit (Sep 9, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 13-2= 11
Dunsany, Lord 9
Leiber, Fritz 11
Tolkien, J.R.R. 5+1 =6
Williamson, Jack 10
Zelazny, Roger 11

I can live with this list, (if I disagree about some early casualties) so I skipped a day or two. I never would have voted for Tolkien if he wasn't targeted so early and wouldn't have argued that he should win, despite the favours his works have done for D&D and myself personally. Whoever wins, it shouldn't be by a landslide.


----------



## TiwazTyrsfist (Sep 9, 2018)

*Burroughs, Edgar Rice 12*
Dunsany, Lord 9
Leiber, Fritz 11
*Tolkien, J.R.R. 4*
Williamson, Jack 10
Zelazny, Roger 11


SOOOOOOON


----------



## bid (Sep 9, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 10
Dunsany, Lord 9
Leiber, Fritz 11
Tolkien, J.R.R. 4
Williamson, Jack 10
Zelazny, Roger 12


----------



## Tallifer (Sep 9, 2018)

Never mind, I misunderstood the votes in a previous post...


----------



## chrisrtld (Sep 9, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 10
Dunsany, Lord 9
Leiber, Fritz 11
Tolkien, J.R.R. 5 (6-2 is 4+1 is 5)
Williamson, Jack 10
Zelazny, Roger 10


----------



## werecorpse (Sep 9, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 10
Dunsany, Lord 9
Leiber, Fritz 11
Tolkien, J.R.R. 5+1=6
Williamson, Jack 10-2=8
Zelazny, Roger 10


----------



## Lanefan (Sep 9, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 10
Dunsany, Lord 9
Leiber, Fritz 11
Tolkien, J.R.R. 7
Williamson, Jack 6 - the last one standing that I've never heard of so it's downvotes for you, my lad.
Zelazny, Roger 10


----------



## StormbringerAUS (Sep 10, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 10
Dunsany, Lord 9
Leiber, Fritz 11 - 2 = 9
Tolkien, J.R.R. 7 + 1 = 8
Williamson, Jack 6
Zelazny, Roger 10


----------



## Invisible Stalker (Sep 10, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 10
Dunsany, Lord 9
Lieber, Fritz 9
Tolkien, J.R.R. 9
Williamson, Jack 6
Zelazny, Roger 8


----------



## Tyler Do'Urden (Sep 10, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 10
Dunsany, Lord 9
Lieber, Fritz 9
Tolkien, J.R.R. 10
Williamson, Jack 4
Zelazny, Roger 8


----------



## Nagol (Sep 10, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 10
Dunsany, Lord 9
Lieber, Fritz 9
Tolkien, J.R.R. 10-2=8
Williamson, Jack 4
Zelazny, Roger 8+1=9


----------



## tglassy (Sep 10, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 10
Dunsany, Lord 9
Lieber, Fritz 9
Tolkien, J.R.R. 8 + 1 = 9
Williamson, Jack 4 - 2 = 2
Zelazny, Roger 9


----------



## Parmandur (Sep 10, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 10-2=8
Dunsany, Lord 9
Lieber, Fritz 9
Tolkien, J.R.R. 9+1=10
Williamson, Jack 2
Zelazny, Roger 9


----------



## Twiggly the Gnome (Sep 10, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 8
Dunsany, Lord 10
Lieber, Fritz 9
Tolkien, J.R.R. 8
Williamson, Jack 2
Zelazny, Roger 9


----------



## Grognerd (Sep 10, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 8
Dunsany, Lord 10
Lieber, Fritz 9
Tolkien, J.R.R. 9
Williamson, Jack 2
Zelazny, Roger 7

So we're in the endgame now...
New day, new vote. Final day?


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Sep 10, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 8
Dunsany, Lord 10
Lieber, Fritz 9
Tolkien, J.R.R. 7
Williamson, Jack 2
Zelazny, Roger 9​


----------



## Harzel (Sep 10, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 8
Dunsany, Lord 10
Lieber, Fritz 9
Tolkien, J.R.R. 8
Williamson, Jack 0
Zelazny, Roger 9

Ok, I'm happy with any of this bunch winning, though I do wish we had just a few of the earlier losses still here.


----------



## werecorpse (Sep 10, 2018)

Zelazny should only be 8


----------



## Prakriti (Sep 10, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 8
Dunsany, Lord 10
Lieber, Fritz 9
Tolkien, J.R.R. 8
Zelazny, Roger 8

Fixing, per above.


----------



## Nikosandros (Sep 10, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 8
Dunsany, Lord 8
Lieber, Fritz 9
Tolkien, J.R.R. 9
Zelazny, Roger 8


----------



## squibbles (Sep 10, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 8
Dunsany, Lord 8
 Lieber, Fritz 9+1=10
 Tolkien, J.R.R. 9-2=7
Zelazny, Roger 8


----------



## Tallifer (Sep 10, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 8
Dunsany, Lord 8
 Lieber, Fritz 10
Tolkien, J.R.R. 8
Zelazny, Roger 6


----------



## tglassy (Sep 10, 2018)

*Survivor Appendix N Authors-  THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE!*

I’m just glad Tolkien got to top 5. I looked up the others, and while I’ve heard of Burroughs and Lieber’s works I can’t say they’re all that prevalent today. The others seem to have a lot out there that I’d like, but I’ve never heard of any of their works. So I’m going to stick with Tolkien, because there are few authors, or works, out there that can match, in any genre.

Maybe he can get to top 3?  I don’t expect him to be able to win, but you never know.


----------



## Yardiff (Sep 10, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 8
Dunsany, Lord 8
 Lieber, Fritz 10
Tolkien, J.R.R. 8-2=6
Zelazny, Roger 6 +1=7​


----------



## Dausuul (Sep 10, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 8
Dunsany, Lord 8
*Lieber, Fritz 8*
Tolkien, J.R.R. 6
*Zelazny, Roger 8*


----------



## Maxperson (Sep 10, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 8
Dunsany, Lord 6
Lieber, Fritz 8
Tolkien, J.R.R. 7
Zelazny, Roger 8


----------



## sim-h (Sep 10, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 8
Dunsany, Lord 4
Lieber, Fritz 8
Tolkien, J.R.R. 8
Zelazny, Roger 8


----------



## rczarnec (Sep 10, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 8
Dunsany, Lord 2
Lieber, Fritz 9
Tolkien, J.R.R. 8
Zelazny, Roger 8


----------



## lowkey13 (Sep 10, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


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## Bradley Hindman (Sep 10, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 8
Dunsany, Lord 2
Lieber, Fritz 9
Tolkien, J.R.R. 6-2 = 4
Zelazny, Roger 9+1 =10​


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## Reynard (Sep 10, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 8
Dunsany, Lord 2
Lieber, Fritz 9
Tolkien, J.R.R. 4+1=5
Zelazny, Roger 10-2=8

I wouldn't have downvoted Z, but this is getting silly now.


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## OB1 (Sep 10, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 8
Dunsany, Lord 2
Lieber, Fritz 9
Tolkien, J.R.R. 3
Zelazny, Roger 9


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## Sacrosanct (Sep 10, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 8
Dunsany, Lord 2
Lieber, Fritz 10
Tolkien, J.R.R. 1
Zelazny, Roger 9


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## Imaro (Sep 10, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 8
Dunsany, Lord 2
Lieber, Fritz 12
Tolkien, J.R.R. 0
Zelazny, Roger 9


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## lowkey13 (Sep 10, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


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## Prakriti (Sep 10, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 8
Dunsany, Lord 2
Lieber, Fritz 12
Zelazny, Roger 7

If not Tolkien, then... LEIBER!

Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser capture the essence of D&D better than any of the remaining authors. Plus, Leiber is a funner read, even if he suffers from purple prose. I invite all my fellow Tolkien fans to do the right thing and bring it on home for Papa Fritz.


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## lowkey13 (Sep 10, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


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## Gradine (Sep 10, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 8
Dunsany, Lord 2
Leiber, Fritz 10
Zelazny, Roger 7

Nothing left deserves the upvote


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## lowkey13 (Sep 10, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


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## tglassy (Sep 10, 2018)

Reaching the top 5:








Being eliminated anyway:


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## Gradine (Sep 10, 2018)

lowkey13 said:


> "This is purely a popularity contest and you do not have to explain an upvote or downvote, but feel free to- explanations are where the fun is! When downvotes reach 0 the author is eliminated (FATALITY! NO REVENANTS OR ESTATES PUBLISHING UNFINISHED WORKS!). Finally, if an author has one vote left, then you have to make the choice to use all of your downvotes to eliminate it; there is no vote splitting. In addition, you must split your vote- you can't upvote and downvote the same game (no "see" votes). *And you have to use BOTH YOUR UPVOTE AND DOWNVOTE if you vote.* "




Burroughs, Edgar Rice 8
Dunsany, Lord 2
Leiber, Fritz 10
Paladin, Gnome 1
Zelazny, Roger 8

Edit: Fine fine


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## Parmandur (Sep 10, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 8
Dunsany, Lord 3
Leiber, Fritz 10
Zelazny, Roger 5


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## lowkey13 (Sep 10, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


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## CleverNickName (Sep 10, 2018)

*Burroughs, Edgar Rice 8-2=6*
*Dunsany, Lord 3+1=4*
Leiber, Fritz 10
Zelazny, Roger 6

Putting my upvote on an odd number, so as to make it meaningless.  Pretend it's for Tolkien.


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## TiwazTyrsfist (Sep 10, 2018)

*Burroughs, Edgar Rice 7*
*Dunsany, Lord 2*
Leiber, Fritz 10
Zelazny, Roger 6


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## chrisrtld (Sep 10, 2018)

*Burroughs, Edgar Rice 8*
*Dunsany, Lord 0*
Leiber, Fritz 10
Zelazny, Roger 6


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## Ed Laprade (Sep 10, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 8 +1 =9*
**Leiber, Fritz 10 -2 = 8​Zelazny, Roger 6​*


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## Toledo (Sep 10, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 9+1 =10*
Leiber, Fritz = 8Zelazny, Roger 6-2=4​*


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## grimslade (Sep 10, 2018)

Toledo said:


> Burroughs, Edgar Rice 9+1 =10*
> Leiber, Fritz = 8Zelazny, Roger 6-2=4​*




Burroughs, Edgar Rice 10
Leiber, Fritz = 8+1=9
Zelazny, Roger 4-2=2


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## Lidgar (Sep 10, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 8
Leiber, Fritz 9
Zelazny, Roger 3


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## the Jester (Sep 10, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 8 - 2 = 6
Leiber, Fritz 9
Zelazny, Roger 3 + 1 = 4


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## SkidAce (Sep 10, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 8-2 = 6
Leiber, Fritz 9
Zelazny, Roger 3+1 = 4


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## Prakriti (Sep 10, 2018)

Fixing SkidAce's and Jester's simultaneous posts above.

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 4
Leiber, Fritz 9
Zelazny, Roger 5


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## Twiggly the Gnome (Sep 10, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 2 
 Leiber, Fritz 10 
Zelazny, Roger 5


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## werecorpse (Sep 11, 2018)

Burroughs, Edgar Rice 0
 Leiber, Fritz 11
Zelazny, Roger 5


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## CleverNickName (Sep 11, 2018)

Tarzan made the top 3 (top 2, if you count the movie novelization by Leiber), but Gandalf didn't? 

Yep, definitely an ENWorld "Survivor" thread.


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## tglassy (Sep 11, 2018)

Yup


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## Tyler Do'Urden (Sep 11, 2018)

Leiber, Fritz 12
Zelazny, Roger 3

I come back here to find that the master has fallen.

Hmm. Two respectable finishers, though.

I'll go with the momentum.


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## StormbringerAUS (Sep 11, 2018)

Leiber, Fritz 12 - 2 = 10
Zelazny, Roger 3 + 1 = 4

I like Leiber's characters but did not really enjoy his fantasy stories though thought his horror stories were great, however have enjoyed everything I have read of Zelazny's.


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## Lord Mhoram (Sep 11, 2018)

Leiber, Fritz 8
Zelazny, Roger 5


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## Maxperson (Sep 11, 2018)

Well, I'm happy.  Tolkien made top 5 and the remaining 2 are my second and third choices.


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## Invisible Stalker (Sep 11, 2018)

Leiber, Fritz 9
Zelazny, Roger 3


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## bid (Sep 11, 2018)

GG, I can't downvote a good candidate like Fritz Leiber. Having these 2 is a good end.


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## squibbles (Sep 11, 2018)

Leiber, Fritz 9+1=10
Zelazny, Roger 3-2=1


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## Dausuul (Sep 11, 2018)

*Leiber, Fritz 8
Zelazny, Roger 2*


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## tglassy (Sep 11, 2018)

Leiber, Fritz 8 + 1 = 9
Zelazny, Roger 2 - 2 = 0

And with the only vote I have done that wasn’t for Tolkien, I finish this contest.


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## Prakriti (Sep 11, 2018)

_*LEIBER WINS!

*_Congratulations to Leiber fans. He is, in my opinion, a good author and a deserving winner.

And thank you to my fellow Tolkien fans. We put up a good fight.


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## Tallifer (Sep 11, 2018)

Next, (as someone already suggested above) I vote for a contest between the 5E Appendix N equivalent (minus all the authors already done on this contest)


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## lowkey13 (Sep 11, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Sep 11, 2018)

_and there was much rejoicing!_


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## Ralif Redhammer (Sep 11, 2018)

Wow, I go away for a long weekend and Leiber wins 

Nonetheless, congrats to Leiber!


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## BookBarbarian (Sep 11, 2018)

Leiber's not my very favorite, but top 3 for sure.

‎Somewhere Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser‎ are pleased.


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## Sonny (Sep 12, 2018)

I missed this. But Lieber is my favorite of the Appendix N authors. He's also the reason why I love Wererats, Rogues, and the Skaven (Swords of Lankhmar's influence is evident. Especially how the Skaven are ruled by a council of 13).


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## Tyler Do'Urden (Sep 12, 2018)

An acceptable victor. While Tolkien, Lovecraft or Moorcock would have been my preferences, Lieber's importance to D&D and the genre is pretty clear, even if I've never read his books.


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## SpellJammer16 (Sep 12, 2018)

Wicked Awesome! I was getting worried for a while lol


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