# What does "TPK" mean?



## bardolph (Jun 21, 2008)

What does "TPK" mean?


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## Whimper3 (Jun 21, 2008)

Total Party Kill.

An event or encounter which results in the demise of all the PCs.


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## Dragonstriker (Jun 21, 2008)

Total Party Kill - a wipe.
*I think I just failed a spot check*


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## Ultimatecalibur (Jun 21, 2008)

*T*otal *P*arty *K*ill


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## Ziana (Jun 21, 2008)

What do you guys do for TPKs? Start over with new characters? Divine intervention? Mulligan and do the fight over?


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## pogminky (Jun 21, 2008)

It means the DM has won the game.  King me!


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## generalhenry (Jun 21, 2008)

TPKs are epic fail.  They simply shouldn't happen.  The encounters should favor the party, the players should retreat when things are going bad, the DM should fudge, the Enemies should capture the PCs.

So if one does occur it's a sign of real trouble.   Indeed I've played since OD&D and I don't remember ever having seen one.  Though I have seem the majority of the party killed before.

I'd say start up a whole new party of characters.


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## Blackbrrd (Jun 21, 2008)

I DM'd the return to the temple of elemental evil, and when the party met the 14th level madness domain cleric with 24 effective wisdom... He did a TPK. I was sick and tired of dungeon crawls by that time and will never DM a premade module with any dungeon larger than 10 rooms. Oh, we scrapped the whole campaign. 

If you are seeing a TPK coming you should probably do something before it happens if you like the characters. You can for instance have the bad guys retreat, somebody might show up, or something like that. Only fudge like that when you see a TPK coming. A single character should be allowed to die or the players will start thinking that you will save them all the time.

If you have a TPK, I would have started with new characters. The question then is: do you start them at the same level as the old characters and continue the story somehow, or do you start a new campaign.


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## CleverNickName (Jun 21, 2008)

pogminky said:
			
		

> It means the DM has won the game.  King me!



LOL

For the most part, I leave it up to the players.

If they want to keep playing with their current characters, I invent a plot loophole that allows their bodies to have been recovered and _raised_ by an NPC.  This plot tangent could result in the party having to repay a debt, complete a mission, etc.

If they want all new characters, I let them.  Then I invent a plot tangent that works the new PCs into the story.


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## Charwoman Gene (Jun 21, 2008)

Toilet Paper Kraziness -- a WIPE!


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## Snoweel (Jun 21, 2008)

bardolph said:
			
		

> What does "TPK" mean?




n00b


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## jdrakeh (Jun 21, 2008)

Blackbrrd said:
			
		

> Oh, we scrapped the whole campaign.




That's the end result of _most_ TPKs, IME. I have seen some DMs work some kind of a story hook to get the PCs resurrected, which can avoid the end of a campaign but _every_ "Ok! Draw up some new charcters and start over!" or "Draw up some new characters and we'll just rotate them in as the new heroes!" effort I have seen to date has killed the campaign dead in short order.

While I have no issues killing _most_ of the party, I actively try to avoid killing them _all_ for this reason: players don't like it. If players don't something, when the DM says "To hell with them!" and does it anyhow, they'll soon find that they suffer from a lack of players. I like playing D&D, so I try to work _with_ the players (because, without players, D&D is pretty boring).


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## Keeper of Secrets (Jun 21, 2008)

I think all players are better off not knowing what a TPK is.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Jun 21, 2008)

TPKs remind me of the ultimate failure in that ancient video game known as Space Invaders.
  Not the failure where you run out of ships.  The failure where ... the aliens land.

  TPKs I was involved in resulted in everyone having to create new characters.

  I remember a TPK where the DM insisted we take 1st level characters into I6 Ravenloft (except for someone's 10th level druid ...)
  It wasn't a quick TPK.  No sir.  No easy one-battle-you're-dead TPK.  As usual, Ravenloft isn't so merciful.  This was a drawn out, agonizing TPK, where Strahd himself had to intervene to put the party out of it's misery.
  (Our map was beyond TPK, though.  If you've ever looked at the map of I6, you'll see it's extremely complicated.  Our map was ... shall I say inaccurate?  No, not sufficient.  Definitely a case of needing to be put out of it's misery ...)


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## Darklone (Jun 21, 2008)

I can rely on absurd player luck. No TPKs here in the last years.


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## Weregrognard (Jun 21, 2008)

There was an excellent _Dragon _ magazine article on what to do with the campaign when the bad guys "win".  For the life of me, I cannot remember the issue.  I'm pretty sure the issue was during the late 90's before 3rd edition.  Help?


Edit: 50th post!  W00t!


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## Doug McCrae (Jun 21, 2008)

Ziana said:
			
		

> What do you guys do for TPKs? Start over with new characters? Divine intervention? Mulligan and do the fight over?



Last time it happened I ended the campaign. My feeling is that for combat to be worth running there has to be something at stake, whether it's forcing the player to make up a new PC or the cost of resurrection. Some people use stakes other than death though, like if the PCs lose it means the enemy escapes or the NPC princess is kidnapped or something else meaningful to the players.


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## wedgeski (Jun 21, 2008)

Snoweel said:
			
		

> n00b



Whether in jest or not let's please not go down this road.


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## Umbran (Jun 21, 2008)

Snoweel said:
			
		

> n00b





*Snoweel* -  in terms of character flaws, being new is a whole lot less egregious than being as rude and unwelcoming as you are right now.  

Let me be clear to everyone - that is not an acceptable way to treat people around here.  Low postcount or lack of knowledge about a particular topic is not an excuse to treat people badly.  Even if it was a joke, it gives the wrong impression to anyone not in on the joke.  We have a whole lot of new folks around here, and we expect you to threat them with respect.


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## Ethalias (Jun 21, 2008)

Umbran said:
			
		

> *Snoweel* -  in terms of character flaws, being new is a whole lot less egregious than being as rude and unwelcoming as you are right now.
> 
> Let me be clear to everyone - that is not an acceptable way to treat people around here.  Low postcount or lack of knowledge about a particular topic is not an excuse to treat people badly.  Even if it was a joke, it gives the wrong impression to anyone not in on the joke.  We have a whole lot of new folks around here, and we expect you to threat them with respect.




This is why I love these boards.

And yes, I know my post count is low


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## the Jester (Jun 21, 2008)

generalhenry said:
			
		

> TPKs are epic fail.  They simply shouldn't happen.  The encounters should favor the party, the players should retreat when things are going bad, the DM should fudge, the Enemies should capture the PCs.




That's certainly _one valid way_ of looking at tpks. Another would be to say that tpks are the natural end of a campaign, and a good time to start over with 1st-level pcs. 

I disagree that they simply shouldn't happen, that encounters should favor the party, the DM should fudge, the Enemies should capture the PCs. I _do_ agree that the pcs should know when to retreat- but that is up to them, not the dm.


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## ShinHakkaider (Jun 21, 2008)

the Jester said:
			
		

> That's certainly _one valid way_ of looking at tpks. Another would be to say that tpks are the natural end of a campaign, and a good time to start over with 1st-level pcs.
> 
> I disagree that they simply shouldn't happen, that encounters should favor the party, the DM should fudge, the Enemies should capture the PCs. I _do_ agree that the pcs should know when to retreat- but that is up to them, not the dm.




This. 

I let my players know that if they make bad choices, those choices will come back to haunt them. One of the many ways that players pay for "bad" choices are TPK's. I don't look to inflict them and I usually try to throw a bunch of hints their way that there may be a possibility of one if the pick a certain path. Beyond that if they choose to ignore the signs and the warnings It's on them. I'm not going to mollycoddle players into thinking that they world that they're playing is safe and there's no fear of death.


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## Fifth Element (Jun 21, 2008)

pogminky said:
			
		

> It means the DM has won the game.  King me!



That would be a lot funnier if I didn't used to play with that DM. He was the only game around for a long time. I had 3 characters make it past 1st level in about 5 years.


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## pogminky (Jun 21, 2008)

> I had 3 characters make it past 1st level in about 5 years.




Duuuuuude????

He was obviously being lenient.  

When I DM half the player's PCs die during character creation.


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## Asmor (Jun 21, 2008)

Umbran said:
			
		

> *Snoweel* -  in terms of character flaws, being new is a whole lot less egregious than being as rude and unwelcoming as you are right now.
> 
> Let me be clear to everyone - that is not an acceptable way to treat people around here.  Low postcount or lack of knowledge about a particular topic is not an excuse to treat people badly.  Even if it was a joke, it gives the wrong impression to anyone not in on the joke.  We have a whole lot of new folks around here, and we expect you to threat them with respect.




I may be wrong, but I read Snoweel's comment differently... I thought he was suggesting that "TPK means n00b," i.e. that having a TPK means the players, DM, or both were lacking in experience and/or skill. I didn't read it as a comment on the OP.


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## pawsplay (Jun 21, 2008)

generalhenry said:
			
		

> TPKs are epic fail.  They simply shouldn't happen.  The encounters should favor the party, the players should retreat when things are going bad, the DM should fudge, the Enemies should capture the PCs.




I would never run my game this way. I never fudge the dice, I never have the enemies "capture" PCs they were obviously trying to kill, sometimes the players don't retreat when they should, and sometimes the dice are mean. Really, why would a pack of hungry ghouls "capture" someone?

EDIT: For my current fame, with is at 13th to 14th level and they are nearing the final battle, we're probably just going to switch to Mutants & Masterminds if they lose. If they lose, however, my idea for the next D&D game is 200 years into the future, with darkness reigning over the land. Ha!


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## pr1 (Jun 21, 2008)

Dragonstriker said:
			
		

> Total Party Kill - a wipe.
> *I think I just failed a spot check*




You mean... one day... my character might... *gulp*... die?!? :*(

And I spent all that time mulling over his or her feats and wrote a five-page background and everything!  That offends my narrativist sensibilities, sir, and I am offended!


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## mach1.9pants (Jun 21, 2008)

pogminky said:
			
		

> It means the DM has won the game.  King me!



ROFL, king the DM FTW! ooh arghh


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## Thunderfoot (Jun 22, 2008)

pogminky said:
			
		

> Duuuuuude????
> 
> He was obviously being lenient.
> 
> When I DM half the player's PCs die during character creation.



You must have been playing Traveler - that was actually in the creation rules.

TPKs are a fact of life.  As for me, I plan all major battles with TPKs as the end result.  Why you might ask, because I find that my players are more than resourceful, if I plan for a TPK, they have yet to let me actually accomplish it, though I have gotten close a couple of times.  What this has meant for the campaign is that Epic battles, seem truly Epic; because they always somehow manage to pull it out at the last minute (and no, I'm not helping them, they just have an inordinate amount of luck and skill when it comes to large scale battles.)

However, if it happens, it happens.  The thing to remember is not to rub it in someones face, realize that you probably made a mistake (discounting the luck of the die rolls) and learn from it, fess up to the party re-roll characters and start over.  A good way to gloss it over s to pick up the story line several years later and the story of their valiant heroes deaths  has become a folk story to inspire courage and greatness,  even if it means making the ultimate sacrifice.  Have a bard sing about, old women tell the children to aspire to be like them and have the new characters (ie players) hear how awesome they were.  That way when they finally catch-up to uber ugly bad guy, its all the sweeter when they avenge their deaths.  

But, YMMV...


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## The Little Raven (Jun 22, 2008)

jdrakeh said:
			
		

> I have seen some DMs work some kind of a story hook to get the PCs resurrected, which can avoid the end of a campaign but _every_ "Ok! Draw up some new charcters and start over!" or "Draw up some new characters and we'll just rotate them in as the new heroes!" effort I have seen to date has killed the campaign dead in short order.




I once had a TPK that riled up my players. They hated the villain that slew them and were literally raging around my house about it. So, I had their characters fight their way through the realm of the dead and defeat the lord of the dead in several tests of skill to regain their lives.


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## jdrakeh (Jun 22, 2008)

Mourn said:
			
		

> I once had a TPK that riled up my players. They hated the villain that slew them and were literally raging around my house about it. So, I had their characters fight their way through the realm of the dead and defeat the lord of the dead in several tests of skill to regain their lives.




Dude! That's seven shades of badass! I actually mention this very scenario as a possible workaround for the TPK in Formless. More people should do this thing in D&D. Fighting your way out of the afterlife rocks


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## kiznit (Jun 22, 2008)

I'm a killer DM.

I've had several TPKs over the course of my 3.x career - in fact my players rib me about it a fair bit because I've committed the egregious sin of TPKing the party _the very first encounter of a new campaign_. And I've done this _twice_ now. 

At least one of those particular situations was Mulligan'd (started over, well, skipped past actually).

Other times, if there's room or an area of the dungeon that fits for it, I'll opt for the Total Party Capture (TM), i.e. the "you wake up in a jail cell" maneuver. Alternately I've done the "Wake-up stripped and naked" victim of a monster-mugging ploy.

I get really embarrassed and apologetic when it happens, but my players are nice. For the most part, they seem to appreciate the fact that I play my monsters hard and smart and insist that I run a pretty damn exciting game. In return, they've developed some _extremely sharp_ counter-tactics and work really well as a group together (and there's been some occasional min-maxing and munchkinning in response as well, which is not so good I guess).

The fact that my players have gotten really good has actually put me in a tough spot as a DM on occasion to match their tactics and keep things exciting (there's only one of me, and sometimes monster powers can be complicated and hard to keep track of!), so yeah, there's been a little bit of an arms race going on in the past.

But it's a hack-and-slash gaming group, and it's the way we roll, baby. If we were to try a more narrative/story-based campaign, I'd probably cut back on the ruthlessness a bit.


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## Korgoth (Jun 22, 2008)

pogminky said:
			
		

> It means the DM has won the game.  King me!




Correct!

 

Actually, TPKs are their own kind of fun and they do happen.  If there's more life in the campaign, start over with new characters.  If not, move on.

I like the idea of starting anew in the future and dealing with the fact that evil won, if it's that sort of storyline.

Of course, if the game was about exploring the vast Vaults of Woe beneath the half-ruined City State of Aryg, then by all means just roll up some new dudes and head back down into the depths.  If the previous unfortunates had some good gear, perhaps it will be found in the hoards of its new owners.


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## Drowbane (Jun 22, 2008)

generalhenry said:
			
		

> TPKs are epic fail.  They simply shouldn't happen.  The encounters should favor the party, the players should retreat when things are going bad, the DM should fudge, the Enemies should capture the PCs.




I couldn't agree with you more.  Let the dice fall where they may!



			
				generalhenry said:
			
		

> I'd say start up a whole new party of characters.




Ahh, there you go being sensible again.  There is no reason a TPK need end a campaign.


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