# About Reveille



## Piratecat (Mar 13, 2009)

We have a policy of never discussing moderator action. In this case, though, I'm going to make an exception because we'll need to talk about this. It's a community issue that affects many of us.

It has come to our attention that Reveille wasn't sick. He created the 'Rev's Mandy' account and fabricated his illness. I'm honestly not sure why; maybe he wanted attention, or needed to gauge how people felt about him. I don't want to guess, and I'm not sure I'm fit to judge, but there's no doubt about this and no possible mistake.

I feel really betrayed and manipulated by someone I liked and considered a friend. Mostly I feel disappointed and used. I probably won't be the only one. We have decided to ban Reveille, as this sort of behavior - this sort of lying - can not and should not be condoned. I apologize to the many people he's friends with and who have enjoyed his posts. If you wish to discuss this decision by the moderators, it's like any other moderator call at ENW: email me, don't discuss it on the boards themselves.

If you want to talk to him, he can still be emailed through the boards. *Do not send him harassing emails.* I figure he has enough problems already if this was necessary, and doesn't need abuse. Likewise, *our rules about personal attacks still apply.* That's a little tricky, though, because folks are going to need to talk about this for a while. Please use good judgment when you do, and report any posts you see that break our rules.

Finally... well, crap. This is one of the most frustrating and disappointing days I've had as a moderator over the past nine years. On behalf of our entire community, I'm sorry.


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## Rel (Mar 13, 2009)

I want to say first and foremost that I am disgusted and profoundly disappointed.  Having met Rev/Fru in person and considering him not only a friend but somebody who was as sweet and kind an individual as you're ever likely to meet, I cannot fathom what would drive him to do something so monstrously cruel as this.  I don't know what else to say about that aspect of this ugly, horrible thing.

I want to talk about something else though and that is how I am very, very proud to be a member of this community.  Seeing such an outpouring of concern and caring, however undeserved, is a mark of good people.  And I am proud to be among you.

I hope that those of you who also called Reveille a friend can take some solace in the fact that you acted honorably and as a true friend would, even if he did not.


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## fba827 (Mar 13, 2009)

In general, glad everyone on the boards is alright and in good health.


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## Rani (Mar 13, 2009)

This is incredibly disappointing... I can never claim to have known Rev, but as a long time lurker on this board I had felt very fond of him. He was one of my favorite people in the EN community. I feel _very_ betrayed by this nonetheless, I spent days worrying about him and his loved ones. I even spent time praying for his well being and now I find out it was just a cruel joke! 

Disappointing indeed, but Rel does have a point. If there is a good thing to be said of this, it's that the people of EN World are truly good people, and that is why I keep coming back here. It hurts now, but I know eventually this too shall pass, and this place will continue to be a wonderful place to come to not only to discuss our gaming, but to continue to bond as a community.


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## Gansk (Mar 13, 2009)

The whole thing seemed too coincidental, considering Reveille means wake up.

Maybe he thought (mistakenly) that it would be a good setup for April Fool's?


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## Teflon Billy (Mar 13, 2009)

Called it.

What did it for me was just the sheer nonsense of that last message from "Mandy"

"The Experts say when he's done talking to them he'll wake up"

Bad, actionable expertise there I would think.

Also I was a bit suspicious that this girl would transcribe these 5 names of D&D Gods and--without knowing what they were--come and report them to a D&D forum.

All kinds of bells went off.


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## ppaladin123 (Mar 13, 2009)

Rani said:


> This is incredibly disappointing... I can never claim to have known Rev, but as a long time lurker on this board I had felt very fond of him. He was one of my favorite people in the EN community. I feel _very_ betrayed by this nonetheless, I spent days worrying about him and his loved ones. I even spent time praying for his well being and now I find out it was just a cruel joke!
> 
> Disappointing indeed, but Rel does have a point. If there is a good thing to be said of this, it's that the people of EN World are truly good people, and that is why I keep coming back here. It hurts now, but I know eventually this too shall pass, and this place will continue to be a wonderful place to come to not only to discuss our gaming, but to continue to bond as a community.





My guess is that it was not meant to be cruel or a joke. When people do something like this they are typically in a rather bad place psychologically speaking.

I too was suspicious/cynical about this whole thing. I am sad that it turned out exactly how I expected.


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## Sammael (Mar 13, 2009)

Honestly, the whole thing felt very fishy to me from the beginning, which is why I decided not to post any sort of "support" in the original thread.


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## Asmor (Mar 13, 2009)

Rel said:


> I want to say first and foremost that I am disgusted and profoundly disappointed.  Having met Rev/Fru in person and considering him not only a friend but somebody who was as sweet and kind an individual as you're ever likely to meet, I cannot fathom what would drive him to do something so monstrously cruel as this.  I don't know what else to say about that aspect of this ugly, horrible thing.




Foreword: All I know of the story is what Piratecat's posted.

Wow. On the one hand, this was a total dick thing to do.

On the other hand, this is just a message board. He didn't scam anyone out of money. He didn't kick any puppies or steal any candy from babies. I'm not condoning what he did, but calling it 'monstrously cruel' seems a little overboard to me.

I could understand if you felt betrayed, but did this really affect your life one way or another?

In the grand scheme of things, I'd rate this slightly higher than 'spamming the board with Nike shoe ads' and significantly lower than 'monstrously cruel.' Definitely worthy of a ban, but not worth losing perspective...


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## Amphimir Míriel (Mar 13, 2009)

I suspected, but decided to take it at face value. Well, hindsight is 20/20 they say...

Anyway, I just want to say that I am proud to be part of a community that cares and worries about its members this way.

Good night!


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## Korgoth (Mar 13, 2009)

Well, I'm glad he's not currently in a coma. On the other hand, I'm also glad that he has been banned.


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## Olaf the Stout (Mar 13, 2009)

Asmor said:


> Foreword: All I know of the story is what Piratecat's posted.
> 
> Wow. On the one hand, this was a total dick thing to do.
> 
> ...




I imagine there is a fair chance that a few board members have had a loved one in a coma before.  I can't imagine this hoax would have been a very nice experiece for them.

Olaf the Stout

Note: I've thankfully never had to deal with a family member or friend in a coma before.


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## Rani (Mar 13, 2009)

ppaladin123 said:


> My guess is that it was not meant to be cruel or a joke. When people do something like this they are typically in a rather bad place psychologically speaking.
> 
> I too was suspicious/cynical about this whole thing. I am sad that it turned out exactly how I expected.




You do raise a good point, it's entirely possible that it wasn't a joke. As I said I can't claim to have known Rev, maybe he is in a dark place right now. I just don't like being played with, I really was saddened when I thought a member of this community I love was unwell. 

That being said, at the time of my first post in this thread I had not seen the last post by "Rev's Mandy." After seeing it it really does make this whole thing make sense. I'm a trusting person, but even I can't believe what was written there. Doesn't change much though, who knows why he did it, but this is the internet and these things happen. I just wish they didn't happen here too. 

So long Rev, and despite the betrayal, I hope you are OK.


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## Teflon Billy (Mar 13, 2009)

Korgoth said:


> Well, I'm glad he's not currently in a coma. On the other hand, I'm also glad that he has been banned.




That's about where I am as well.


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## Rel (Mar 13, 2009)

Asmor said:


> On the other hand, this is just a message board. He didn't scam anyone out of money. He didn't kick any puppies or steal any candy from babies. I'm not condoning what he did, but calling it 'monstrously cruel' seems a little overboard to me.




I'm not asking for anybody else to feel any particular set of emotions about this.  All I know is that I worried and prayed about him every day.  At one point when supposedly his heart stopped I thought he might indeed die.  I don't know if you've ever had a young friend die or not but I have and it's not an experience I ever care to repeat.

I'm pretty heartsick about the whole thing because I feel like I lost a friend either way.


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## Lanefan (Mar 13, 2009)

I never posted any sort of support in the original thread, and felt kind of bad about that.

Now, I don't feel so bad; just confused.

Or - and this has to be asked, even though it's still a bit early for such - is P-Kitty having us on as well, as part II of a big elaborate lead-up to some sort of monumental April fool?

_Admin edit: Just so we're clear, no.  ~ PCat_

Lanefan


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## Legildur (Mar 13, 2009)

Teflon Billy said:


> ...Also I was a bit suspicious that this girl would transcribe these 5 names of D&D Gods and--without knowing what they were--come and report them to a D&D forum.



Yeah, being of sufficient age to be cynical of many things I thought that this whole story was a little dubious. Still, I found myself tracking progress by watching for updates from "Mandy". But my level of suspicion increased markedly with the "gods" stuff for a variety of reasons.

And yeah, while no one was scammed of money, it was in very poor taste and obviously contrary to reasonable use of the boards, so a ban is definitely appropriate - regardless of the loss to the EnWorld community. And I support the Moderators in this decision.


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## Herremann the Wise (Mar 13, 2009)

Hello Everyone and thank you PC for bringing us the news.

I'm on the side of things where somebody would only do this if they were in a bad place - possibly even suicidal. Having had a family relative commit suicide three years ago, I would much prefer them to do what Reveille did than something more terrible. Unfortunately, this is all very strange. Reveille saw how the board here took a genuine concern for his welfare. On the other hand, he is most probably seeing how people's attitude is quickly changing.

I'd like to see an olive branch forwarded to Reveille from the officialdom of EN World welcoming him back if possible. I think this would be the best way of healing any wounds or ill feeling out there. The last thing that would help anyone involved is making a pariah out of the poor guy.

As others have said, I'm very proud to be a member of this fantastic board and forum. The actions of the vast majority of people on this particular thread have only confirmed this for me.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise


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## Treebore (Mar 13, 2009)

Rel said:


> I'm not asking for anybody else to feel any particular set of emotions about this.  All I know is that I worried and prayed about him every day.  At one point when supposedly his heart stopped I thought he might indeed die.  I don't know if you've ever had a young friend die or not but I have and it's not an experience I ever care to repeat.
> 
> I'm pretty heartsick about the whole thing because I feel like I lost a friend either way.




This sums it up closely for me as well.

What he did was very, very low.


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## Bront (Mar 13, 2009)

Amphimir Míriel said:


> I suspected, but decided to take it at face value.



If it had been just about anyone else, I would have looked closer.

Just hurts man.


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## Teflon Billy (Mar 13, 2009)

Herremann the Wise said:


> I'd like to see an olive branch forwarded to Reveille from the officialdom of EN World welcoming him back if possible. I think this would be the best way of healing any wounds or ill feeling out there.




Care to elaborate on that?

How would saying "all is forgiven" to the guy who played us for saps "Heal any ill feeling"?

I think it would look like a massive and inexplicable lapse in moderation policy...and be something of a slap in that face to those who wasted prayers and worry on this.


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## Obryn (Mar 13, 2009)

Asmor said:


> On the other hand, this is just a message board. He didn't scam anyone out of money. He didn't kick any puppies or steal any candy from babies. I'm not condoning what he did, but calling it 'monstrously cruel' seems a little overboard to me.



I don't know the guy, and I didn't post in the thread.  But lots of people I like and respect apparently think - or thought - well of him.  A good many people worried a good long time about whether or not he was okay.  And to inflict this much misery - even if it's diffuse or casual - absolutely is kind of monstrous.  And it's certainly inexcusable.

-O


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## Knightfall (Mar 13, 2009)

Teflon Billy said:


> Also I was a bit suspicious that this girl would transcribe these 5 names of D&D Gods and--without knowing what they were--come and report them to a D&D forum.
> 
> All kinds of bells went off.



That made me very wary but I had to take it at face value. This is Rev we're talking about. He's always appeared to be incredibly nice.

I'm worried that he might be troubled in some manner. I very disappointed in him. I've considered him a great friend for a long time.

This hurts.


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## Jack99 (Mar 13, 2009)

I think it's important to keep perspective. Yes he might have worried some people, and yes, it's definitely wrong to do such things. But on the other hand, it's just a prank, and a totally harmless one at that.

Cheers


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## Obryn (Mar 13, 2009)

Jack99 said:


> I think it's important to keep perspective. Yes he might have worried some people, and yes, it's definitely wrong to do such things. But on the other hand, it's just a prank, and a totally harmless one at that.
> 
> Cheers



Something that inflicts emotional harm is not, by definition, harmless.

-O


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## Knightfall (Mar 13, 2009)

Olaf the Stout said:


> I imagine there is a fair chance that a few board members have had a loved one in a coma before.  I can't imagine this hoax would have been a very nice experiece for them.
> 
> Olaf the Stout
> 
> Note: I've thankfully never had to deal with a family member or friend in a coma before.



I have. 

My brother fell ill suddenly several years ago and went into a coma. There was no chance he'd wake up. After they took him off the respirator, my family and I watched helplessly as he slowly slipped away.

It hit us all really hard. It crushed my mother. She cried like a baby. I've never seen her like that. All those emotions came flooding back when I read that Rev had fallen into a coma.

Now I find out he was faking it as some sort of sick joke. Well, I'm not laughing.


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## Sepulchrave II (Mar 13, 2009)

I don't post a lot, but I followed the original thread pretty closely. Support from the community was profound and moving - as an optimistic kind of guy, maybe that's what we should be concentrating on. Once again, ENWorld demonstrates that it's a remarkable place.

And I don't think prayer is _ever_ wasted.


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## Knightfall (Mar 13, 2009)

Sepulchrave II said:


> I don't post a lot, but I followed the original thread pretty closely. Support from the community was profound and moving - as an optimistic kind of guy, maybe that's what we should be concentrating on. Once again, ENWorld demonstrates that it's a remarkable place.
> 
> And I don't think prayer is _ever_ wasted.



That's a great sentiment, Sep. (It's just really hard to take right now.) EN World is a great place, and I will continue to be a part of this community until the day it ends.

The thing I'm now worrying about is that there might be something wrong with Rev, pyschologically.


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## Foundry of Decay (Mar 13, 2009)

I have to echo that I'm drained by this, emotionally.  All of my friends have been either losing or having the threat of losing their jobs, my own is in question, a couple close friends are dealing with, albeit minor, medical issues of their own.

So when I saw the original post, I felt shattered.

When I read about his 'heart stopping' episode, I was made to re-live that shattering feeling of having a close friend die from a botched heart surgery.  He too was in a coma, woke up briefly, and passed away after a series of cardiac arrests that evening.

So for me, it hit a raw nerve, and while I didn't know this person, I did follow the story closely and like many others hoped he'd wake up.  I sent all the good vibes I could.

So I'm taking what others have from this experience.  I have a bit of my faith in humanity restored in seeing how genuinely concerned people here were.  The support I saw in the main thread was quite incredible.

I hope this fellow gets some help.  Some serious help.  Its obvious that there's some degree of mental anguish or trauma going on with him.  But I'm happy in that I won't ever have to see him post again.  Not after this level of emotional fraud.


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## Herremann the Wise (Mar 13, 2009)

Teflon Billy said:


> Care to elaborate on that?
> 
> How would saying "all is forgiven" to the guy who played us for saps "Heal any ill feeling"?



Did he play us for saps? Or was he craving attention? I had the feeling more the latter. I'm just concerned that any further negative reaction could push a fragile personality over the edge - and that is something that would be a far greater issue for the boards than what we have now.

So maybe it might not heal ill feelings as much as minimize any further complications and issues.

Is there more going on here than what has been expressed by PC? Are there further issues behind the scenes that would obviously change my point of view? I'm only just going on things as presented.



			
				Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> I think it would look like a massive and inexplicable lapse in moderation policy...and be something of a slap in that face to those who wasted prayers and worry on this.



To a point, and I respect your opinion on this. I'm just worried about the guy, that is all. Maybe he needs those prayers more than ever at the moment?

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise


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## Darrin Drader (Mar 13, 2009)

The cynic in me never really bought into this, but this is a pretty crappy thing to do to people who count you as one of their friends.


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## Aus_Snow (Mar 13, 2009)

Must admit, I became wary when the D&D deities and such were mentioned. Actually, a little before that. But, as I'll do in such situations, experience be damned, I feel compelled to take it at face value, in cases where I give two hoots at all.

Not impressed, naturally enough, but neither is it the end of the world. Hope you're actually doin' OK, Fru, wherever you might really be in life right now.


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## PowerWordDumb (Mar 13, 2009)

Herremann the Wise said:


> I'd like to see an olive branch forwarded to Reveille from the officialdom of EN World welcoming him back if possible. I think this would be the best way of healing any wounds or ill feeling out there. The last thing that would help anyone involved is making a pariah out of the poor guy.




Absolutely not.  Pariah status is exactly what he needs, since apparently he hasn't yet learned actions have consequences.


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## Teflon Billy (Mar 13, 2009)

Herremann the Wise said:


> Did he play us for saps? Or was he craving attention?




I'm not sure that it has to be one or the other.



> I had the feeling more the latter. I'm just concerned that any further negative reaction could push a fragile personality over the edge - and that is something that would be a far greater issue for the boards than what we have now.




Except he won't be seeing it as he is banned.



> So maybe it might not heal ill feelings as much as minimize any further complications and issues.




Ok, I disagree that that is the way to go, but at least that makes more sense to me.



> Best Regards
> Herremann the Wise




You too


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## Wik (Mar 13, 2009)

Yeah.  this sucks.  Really, really sucks.  Not happy about this at all.  It was one of those things I was thinking about at work... how weird it was to be worried about someone I've never met.  And I was worried.

Now?  Now I'm just PO'd.


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## ppaladin123 (Mar 13, 2009)

Herremann the Wise said:


> Did he play us for saps? Or was he craving attention? I had the feeling more the latter. I'm just concerned that any further negative reaction could push a fragile personality over the edge - and that is something that would be a far greater issue for the boards than what we have now.
> 
> So maybe it might not heal ill feelings as much as minimize any further complications and issues.
> 
> ...




If you are worried about further negative reaction, I don't know that having him come back to the boards to post is such a good idea. I imagine there wiould be a lot of angry posts and a lot of locked threads.


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## Jeff Wilder (Mar 13, 2009)

I never really believed this, and since I don't know Reveille from Rorschach it didn't really matter.

But consider this, if you really think this was harmless:

What happens, now, if something like this _does_ occur to a well-known and well-liked EN World person?  Those people who reached out and offered support, or even just _cared_ (whether posting or not) ... will they be as quick to do so in the future?  Will they do so at all?

Taking advantage of someone's sympathetic nature isn't just cruel to that person ... it's cruel to everyone in the future who might have genuinely benefited from that person's sympathetic nature.

I like a good harmless practical joke.  Even if it was a joke, though, this one was neither "good" nor "harmless."


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## Wik (Mar 13, 2009)

Just read the Reveille posts after my last reading, and came across the D&D references.  I can understand now where everyone is coming from with these "called it" things... I probably would have said the same thing.

All I can say is.... WTF?


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## Dannyalcatraz (Mar 13, 2009)

> *korgoth*
> well, i'm glad he's not currently in a coma. On the other hand, i'm also glad that he has been banned.






> *jeff wilder*
> even if it was a joke, though, this one was neither "good" nor "harmless."




qft.


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## Treebore (Mar 13, 2009)

So by banned you mean banned for good?


 I am not sure how I feel about that. I am angry with Charles. He definitely knew what he was doing was wrong, and it definitely hurt. When I was reading about what was supposedly happening to him my empathy brought back my experiences, of facing a year of death, wondering every time when I went to sleep if I would wake up. This is when my two oldest kids were both less than 2 years old, my wife and I married for less than 3 years. I won't bore people with the other details of what I refer to as "My year of Hell".

So Charles dredged up deep empathy from me, and now I see that it was all a very sick joke. He made me dredge up old pains and deep fears I would much rather have left buried where they have been.

Still, this indicates to me that Charles has issues, serious issues. As much as Charles has hurt and angered me he is still a fellow human being, my brother human, and I would guess he needs help judging by what he has done. I hope he gets it. I hope those around him knows he needs it and are able to get it for him.

I can also forgive him, if he asks it of me. I'll likely never trust him, but thats a whole different issue, but I can forgive him.

So because of this I don't think he should be permanently banned. Besides, his shame will likely keep him away from these boards longer than any ban. Or, his sickness, combined with his computer savvy, will have him back on these boards under a "secret" identity as soon as he wishes.

So I say ban him for a couple of weeks, then lets see if he has the courage to come back and beg our forgiveness. Lets see if we have what it takes to forgive.


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## Relique du Madde (Mar 13, 2009)

So many things to say, most of which would be repeating what was said before.



Anyways, since it's likely that Rev will hear about this message, let me just say, from one HIVER to another, if you want/need to talk, you know where to find me.    


Btw., if ti was all a sick perverse joke, the Discordian in me approves.    If not, then you all I have to say what you did was very thought provoking.


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## Wik (Mar 13, 2009)

Treebore said:


> So because of this I don't think he should be permanently banned. Besides, his shame will likely keep him away from these boards longer than any ban. Or, his sickness, combined with his computer savvy, will have him back on these boards under a "secret" identity as soon as he wishes.




You know, I disagree with you.  Some things need to result with permanent banning... a temporary ban is just not enough.  And, as you say, he can always come on as a new name - and a fresh start (at least until he reveals who he really is).

It is, as people have said, only a forum board.  You can say he is a sick individual (Which I disagree with), or at least an upset one (which I do agree with).  But either way, we are not a treatment centre.  We are a place for like-minded people to talk/rave/complain about Dungeons and Dragons (and other games).  

Shutting our doors to him is not shutting him away from treatment, because we are not treament professionals - and we shouldn't be taking on that role.  Shutting our doors to him is simply saying "what you did is not cool, and we don't want to talk to you about Dungeons and Dragons anymore".

If he wants, he can always sneak back onto the site.  Whatever.  More likely, he'll get his fix for gaming conversations on one of the other related sites out there.  We are not the only one, after all.

So, I wish him the best, but I wish him the best somewhere else.


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## the Jester (Mar 13, 2009)

I'm disappointed in Rev, but we all make mistakes. I forgive ya, Rev; hopefully everyone else can do the same.

Regarding the ban length, I'd vote for a year and a day, if it were up for a vote. But I like that kind of thing.


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## Truth Seeker (Mar 13, 2009)

Wait, this was a fake...all of it?


Wow...you got me good.


Wow...you got me real good.


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## Kzach (Mar 13, 2009)

Best. Troll. Evar.


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## Blackrat (Mar 13, 2009)

Meh. I have come to expect the worst from any- and everyone so I'm not even disappointed. I don't know the reasons and I don't even actually care. You're still ok in my books Rev.


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## Relique du Madde (Mar 13, 2009)

I think everyone needs to step back and breath a little.   Rev was a valued member of our community for YEARS before he did this.  Sure he may have tarnished his reputation in a huge way, but he shouldn't be perma-banned for one lapse of judgment.  

If anything you should look at what he did in this way:  He showed each and everyone of use how fragile this digital existance truly is.  He made us realize that if something happened to one of us it would truly difficult for anyone to know because it is easy to fabricate lies on the internet.  He also showed that having purely textual relationships over a digital network is foolish since it is difficult because how much information and disinformation exists.    He tought us a valid and much needed lesson, so don't damn him because you didn't get the "harr-harr" or because you felt hurt/deceived by his cry for help.  

If anyone on ENWorld deserves a second chance, it's Rev.


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## S'mon (Mar 13, 2009)

Sammael said:


> Honestly, the whole thing felt very fishy to me from the beginning, which is why I decided not to post any sort of "support" in the original thread.




It did seem odd, and I'm glad I steered clear of it.

I want to say - best wishes Piratecat, sometimes it's really tough being a moderator.  Thinking of you.


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## Edgewood (Mar 13, 2009)

As a police officer, I already had this one figured out a while ago. I just didn't want to say anything because personal attacks are not acceptable nor should they be. I didn't know Rev and he didn't know me so really, anything I would have said would seem like an attack. I am truly sorry however that it came to this. It's unfortunate but it certainly did reveal that people on this site care of others, which really is the point of sites like these. I'm proud to be an EnWorlder!


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## Shadowsong666 (Mar 13, 2009)

Well, i don't know why he did what he did, but if it helps him getting over his problems - so be it. I don't have a problem with people who make me show that i care for other people over the net if they suffer horrible. 

But yeah, please don't 4chan ENworld.


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## S'mon (Mar 13, 2009)

Wik said:


> You know, I disagree with you.  Some things need to result with permanent banning... a temporary ban is just not enough.  And, as you say, he can always come on as a new name - and a fresh start (at least until he reveals who he really is).
> 
> It is, as people have said, only a forum board.  You can say he is a sick individual (Which I disagree with), or at least an upset one (which I do agree with).  But either way, we are not a treatment centre.  We are a place for like-minded people to talk/rave/complain about Dungeons and Dragons (and other games).
> 
> ...




I agree strongly with this.  ENW is not a medical treatment centre.  The guy seriously hurt a lot of people, and bringing him back would have the potential to seriously exacerbate that hurt.  I am not happy at these calls to un-ban him, I would ask those who have done so to think of others and not just their own feelings re Reveille.

Punishment is not easy.  Sometimes it is necessary.  It takes guts, more than the easy path of letting it slide - which unfortunately our society all too often advocates as being 'caring' or 'nonjudgemental'.  Being banned from a bulletin board is not the worst thing in the world.  Respect this person as an individual and require him to take responsibility for his actions.


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## CleverNickName (Mar 13, 2009)

...

_Original post deleted._

Recent revelations over in the Hive have shed some new light on the subject, so I am retracting my previous message.  I support the permanent ban, because our community doesn't need this behavior.


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## blargney the second (Mar 13, 2009)

Wow, that's just weird.  I don't really care that it was a hoax - he's gone from having my sympathy for being in a coma to having my sympathy for being in a crappy mental place.  You don't burn reputation and social stature like that unless you're in dire straits.

And the next time I read about another ENWorlder who is in trouble they'll get my sympathy as well.
-blarg


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## Umbran (Mar 13, 2009)

Relique du Madde said:


> I think everyone needs to step back and breath a little.   Rev was a valued member of our community for YEARS before he did this.  Sure he may have tarnished his reputation in a huge way, but he shouldn't be perma-banned for one lapse of judgment.




If I may - one bad post is a lapse of judgment.  This was a premeditated,  extended action.  A hoax over several days - that's not just one lapse of good sense.  And it isn't just Rev's personal reputation that has been damaged here.

Several folks have said that EN World is "just a messageboard".  We of the moderation staff understand that, but we also think it is more than that.  EN World is also a _community_.  We're a bunch of nerds and geeks and gamers who, even if we never meet in the flesh, become friends.  This is a place where, believe it or not, if you really do have a problem you've got some chance of getting some support or help.  Rev actually proved that.

But, he has drawn on that reserve of goodwill under false pretenses.  Now, if someone has a real problem, and actually needs to draw on the community for support, people are going to be reserved, a bit skeptical.  Folks with problems may not get what they need, because everyone's going to wonder, in the back of their heads, if this is "another Rev".  

His intent may not have been to be able to laugh at our gullibility, but the effect is to distance us from each other.  That is not harmless.


----------



## Jack99 (Mar 13, 2009)

Obryn said:


> Something that inflicts emotional harm is not, by definition, harmless.
> 
> -O




I agree. But I see absolutely no evidence of any emotional harm coming from what he posted.


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## S'mon (Mar 13, 2009)

Edgewood said:


> As a police officer, I already had this one figured out a while ago. I just didn't want to say anything because personal attacks are not acceptable nor should they be. I didn't know Rev and he didn't know me so really, anything I would have said would seem like an attack. I am truly sorry however that it came to this. It's unfortunate but it certainly did reveal that people on this site care of others, which really is the point of sites like these. I'm proud to be an EnWorlder!




One reason this hoax ran and ran was that nobody felt able to express scepticism - partly in case they were wrong, which is understandable, but also I think general social pressure towards gullibility.  I suggest in a future similar situation that those with particular expertise or knowledge contact the moderators, who may then be able to make enquiries and confirm or refute suspicions.  If they are able to determine it's a hoax, they can then take action to end it before it runs so long and hurts so many people.


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## S'mon (Mar 13, 2009)

Umbran said:


> If I may - one bad post is a lapse of judgment.  This was a premeditated,  extended action.  A hoax over several days - that's not just one lapse of good sense.  And it isn't just Rev's personal reputation that has been damaged here.
> 
> Several folks have said that EN World is "just a messageboard".  We of the moderation staff understand that, but we also think it is more than that.  EN World is also a _community_.  We're a bunch of nerds and geeks and gamers who, even if we never meet in the flesh, become friends.  This is a place where, believe it or not, if you really do have a problem you've got some chance of getting some support or help.  Rev actually proved that.
> 
> ...




Well said, Umbran.

Obviously one should take the opinions of a professed Discordian re community harmony with a pinch of salt.


----------



## Truth Seeker (Mar 13, 2009)

If that is the feeling, then others should go for it.

For me, I met the guy, talk with him, and even took his picture.

Second time now, that I have known of someone, that has shown their 'dark soul'.

From EnWorld.

I am not happy at all.

Not happy.



Relique du Madde said:


> I think everyone needs to step back and breath a little. Rev was a valued member of our community for YEARS before he did this. Sure he may have tarnished his reputation in a huge way, but he shouldn't be perma-banned for one lapse of judgment.
> 
> If anything you should look at what he did in this way: He showed each and everyone of use how fragile this digital existance truly is. He made us realize that if something happened to one of us it would truly difficult for anyone to know because it is easy to fabricate lies on the internet. He also showed that having purely textual relationships over a digital network is foolish since it is difficult because how much information and disinformation exists. He tought us a valid and much needed lesson, so don't damn him because you didn't get the "harr-harr" or because you felt hurt/deceived by his cry for help.
> 
> If anyone on ENWorld deserves a second chance, it's Rev.


----------



## Relique du Madde (Mar 13, 2009)

S'mon said:


> Well said, Umbran.
> 
> Obviously one should take the opinions of a professed Discordian re community harmony with a pinch of salt.




Everything could be taken with a pinch of salt, especially those who claim they know better then others based on the philosophy embraced by that person.  That said, I don't attack you for your philosophical ideas, so you shouldn't attack me for mine.  Also don't assume that I want to see this website or it's community burn just because I align myself with Discordianism, because I don't.   I love this site and it's community.

Sure it's was messed up what Rev did and it hurt.  But I'm over it.  Life's too short for me to be devastated by things that happen on the internet.  

Anyways, its not our decision with what happens to Rev, it's the mod's and admins decision.  I may not like it, but I can live with their choice.


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## Wik (Mar 13, 2009)

Umbran said:


> If I may - one bad post is a lapse of judgment.  This was a premeditated,  extended action.  A hoax over several days - that's not just one lapse of good sense.  And it isn't just Rev's personal reputation that has been damaged here.
> 
> Several folks have said that EN World is "just a messageboard".  We of the moderation staff understand that, but we also think it is more than that.  EN World is also a _community_.  We're a bunch of nerds and geeks and gamers who, even if we never meet in the flesh, become friends.  This is a place where, believe it or not, if you really do have a problem you've got some chance of getting some support or help.  Rev actually proved that.
> 
> ...




Alright.  I guess I feel the need to clarify something.  ENWorld is a bit more than a messageboard to me - I understand the community vibe (it's one of the reasons I'm PO'd about all this).  But, the rest of my earlier comments stand.  

This community doesn't need someone who would do that.  I mean, I know at the beginning, I was ready to do whatever I could to help, and I know I wasn't the only one.

***

Now, I know I probably won't get an answer, but I'd love to hear the story of how this story broke.  How the jig was up for Rev, as it were.  Because I know there's an interesting story in all that.

(My guess is someone contacted the hospital to set something up... after all, as you said Umbran, ENWorld is a community, and we do things for one another).


----------



## wedgeski (Mar 13, 2009)

Euch. There were alarm bells in my head from the start and the "he's saying the name of the Gods in his sleep" nonsense really blew it wide open. Joke or not, cry for help or not, what a crappy thing to do.


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## vagabundo (Mar 13, 2009)

Wow. It is s a tough thing to read this morning. Still I am happy that he is not in a coma, but he seems to have some serious issues. I'm not going to really comment any more as I don't have any contact, but if he does need help I hope he finds it in RL.




Jack99 said:


> I agree. But I see absolutely no evidence of any emotional harm coming from what he posted.




Several people have posted how it brought up their own painful experiences, they put their trust and time into good wishes for him and, now, to find out that it was a hoax is pretty harmful IMO.

Trust is a valuable resource and squandering it is a Bad thing...


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## Herremann the Wise (Mar 13, 2009)

S'mon said:


> The guy seriously hurt a lot of people, and bringing him back would have the potential to seriously exacerbate that hurt.



This is a good point, although I'm also fairly sure despite the ban Rev may already be reading this thread. 


			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> I am not happy at these calls to un-ban him, I would ask those who have done so to think of others and not just their own feelings re Reveille.



As one person who thinks a permanent ban is unsuitable for Rev, I find the assumption that I'm thinking of only myself a little unjust. When it comes down to it, I'm a gentle soul with a high degree of empathy - in this case, not only for Rev, but also the many posters affected in this including myself. Anyway, just saying that I don't think I'm only only worrying about my own feelings in this regard.



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> Punishment is not easy.  Sometimes it is necessary.  It takes guts, more than the easy path of letting it slide - which unfortunately our society all too often advocates as being 'caring' or 'nonjudgemental'.



Again, just saying that just because I don't think punishment is the best option does not mean that I'm "letting it slide". Forgiving someone can be a hard thing to do too.



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> Being banned from a bulletin board is not the worst thing in the world.  Respect this person as an individual and require him to take responsibility for his actions.



I hope he will be able to take responsibility for his actions in the future. In fact I just wish Rev all the best.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise


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## PoeticJustice (Mar 13, 2009)

This is a really fascinating incident--I don't think I've seen a board (or online community) respond to trolling like this.

What Rev did was wrong. I think he ought to be suspended, but not banned. Flamers and other assorted morons get suspended with due regularity around here, from what I can see. While the circumstances are different and baffling, procedurally I think this one is pretty simple.


----------



## S'mon (Mar 13, 2009)

Herremann the Wise said:


> Again, just saying that just because I don't think punishment is the best option does not mean that I'm "letting it slide". Forgiving someone can be a hard thing to do too.




Punishment and forgiveness can go together, you know.  It's a lot harder to forgive someone who has paid no price for their wrongdoing.  

As others have indicated, I'm happy to forgive him but I don't want to see him around here again.  He can go post on rpgnet.


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## vic20 (Mar 13, 2009)

Wik said:


> Now, I know I probably won't get an answer, but I'd love to hear the story of how this story broke.




Perhaps it had something to do with the IP-of-origin on his posts that were ostensibly from the hospital matching with prior non-hospital posts?

Just a speculation...


----------



## S'mon (Mar 13, 2009)

Anyway, like I said my sympathies are with the moderators, who have to make a difficult decision and stick to it.  They have made the right decision.


----------



## Rechan (Mar 13, 2009)

I actually want to deviate a second and say how classy this is of Piratecat and the other mods at EnWorld, for taking this move, opening the floor, and enforcing the personal attack rules.

Good show, guys.


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## Sammael (Mar 13, 2009)

I believe that mods pointed out in the first post that their decision to ban him is not up for public debate:



> We have decided to ban Reveille, as this sort of behavior - this sort of lying - can not and should not be condoned. I apologize to the many people he's friends with and who have enjoyed his posts. *If you wish to discuss this decision by the moderators, it's like any other moderator call at ENW: email me, don't discuss it on the boards themselves.*


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## S'mon (Mar 13, 2009)

Sammael said:


> I believe that mods pointed out in the first post that their decision to ban him is not up for public debate:




In fairness though PC also posted "We have a policy of never discussing moderator action. In this case, though, I'm going to make an exception because we'll need to talk about this. It's a community issue that affects many of us" - so I can see why people would wish to talk about it, argue the ban should be temporary, and why the mods haven't red-texted them yet for doing so.   

Of course I strongly feel those calling for only a temporary suspension are wrong and badly misguided.


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## CharlesRyan (Mar 13, 2009)

What a strange and sad tale.

I frankly didn't know Rev other than as a member of this community, so I have no claims of friendship. I was saddened by "Mandy's" story, and expressed support in the other thread, but that was the extend of the emotional effect on me. I can't claim to have been suspicious; I accepted what was said at face value.

This was an extraordinary act, and, I think, an expression of some extraordinary pain or confusion on Rev's part. (The only other obvious explanation is an act of malice, and that doesn't seem to fit with what people who know him say about Rev.) That frankly makes me just as sad as the original "illness."

I agree with the banning, as much to protect Rev from the reaction of his peers as to punish him. But I hope this is something both he and we can eventually move beyond. ENWorld, generally, is amazingly free of spite and ill will, and we would all hate to see that changed by an event like this.


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## Olaf the Stout (Mar 13, 2009)

Jeff Wilder said:


> I never really believed this, and since I don't know Reveille from Rorschach it didn't really matter.
> 
> But consider this, if you really think this was harmless:
> 
> ...




That's my thoughts precisely on the matter.  If a serious medical condition happened to anyone else on EN World in the future most people will now be very suspicious initially.  That's not fair to the person that actually has the serious medical condition, or the rest of EN World.

Olaf the Stout


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## Thanee (Mar 13, 2009)

Hmm... did anyone actually ask him for his reasons?
Would be curious to know why he thought that would be a 'good idea'...

I highly doubt it was just meant as a 'harmless prank', though (neither would I suspect malicious intents).
Likely, there are more serious issues at hand.

Of course, maybe it's better to just let it rest.

EN-World surely was an important part in his life, and this part is now gone.

He brought that onto himself, of course.

Hopefully he will learn something positive through this.

Bye
Thanee


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## Herremann the Wise (Mar 13, 2009)

S'mon said:


> Punishment and forgiveness can go together, you know.



True. However, my point was that both are not easy to do and both are more difficult than letting things slide. At this stage I prefer just to go with forgiveness. I can understand though why some would seek to punish as well.

By the way as others have expressed, thank you to the mods for their excellent work once again in dealing with this sensitive issue. EN World truly is a wonderful community of wonderful people.







			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> It's a lot harder to forgive someone who has paid no price for their wrongdoing.



True.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise


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## Deuce Traveler (Mar 13, 2009)

I didn't put much thought into it at the time, but I also agree that there was something that felt 'off' about 'Mandy's' knowledge and information.  So I'm glad I did not become emotionally invested, but I also agree that I probably should have expressed my concerns early on.  Overall this is not a huge surprise, but it is a huge disappointment.  I am glad that Reveille has been banned.  Relationships are built on trust, and when trust is destroyed it makes impossible even on-line discussions.


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## Olaf the Stout (Mar 13, 2009)

I too would like to thank the mods for the way they have handled this situation.  Put me in the camp of not letting him back on EN World.  I don't think this is the place he needs to be to get help, and he does need help.

At the same time, if he did come back I could see a lot of posters being angry with him (and rightly so).  EN World could become a bit of a hostile place for a while as a result, with people either siding with or against Reveille.  I really don't think that is something that EN World needs.

If you really want to contact him I'm sure the mods could give you his e-mail address.

Olaf the Stout


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## Ginnel (Mar 13, 2009)

Ah well Rev, you've never expressed the inclination to do this kind of thing so it does seem kinda odd, you've got my support still, you need it.


----------



## Relique du Madde (Mar 13, 2009)

He paid nothing for his wrongfulness is utter BS.

Many of you NEVER posted in the HIVE.  You never had a thousand post long conversations with Rev so you can't imagine the amount of doubt and damage this can cause to anyone's relationship with him on ENWorld. 

What Rev did casts doubt on EVERY fact he ever stated in the HIVE and in the Off Topic forum. Sadly those doubts will always linger since there is little or no concrete evidence for anything he said.   As more and more HIVERs start reading and responding to these events we will only find ourselves questioning his actions more then many of those on this board will.  He was one of our own.   We thought we knew him. We thought we were all friends.  We don't know what the hell lead up to those disastrous actions he took, nor if we could have stopped them.  That's not even mentioning that some of us already feel embittered and betrayed by all of this. 

So you claim he paid no price, well think again.  

The price he paid was the loss of respect he received.  He paid through his loss of credibility as well as his being outed and made into a pariah and potentially becoming labeled as the biggest (compulsive) lier this site has known.  He tarnished himself and he will not come out unscathed or as anything but tainted.  

The price he paid is greater then many of the people on this site will ever know since there are few posters in this community that can fall greater then he did without being a full admin or a game developer.


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## nerfherder (Mar 13, 2009)

Wik said:


> we are not a treatment centre.  We are a place for like-minded people to talk/rave/complain about Dungeons and Dragons (and other games).
> 
> Shutting our doors to him is not shutting him away from treatment, because we are not treament professionals - and we shouldn't be taking on that role.  Shutting our doors to him is simply saying "what you did is not cool, and we don't want to talk to you about Dungeons and Dragons anymore".






Olaf the Stout said:


> If a serious medical condition happened to anyone else on EN World in the future most people will now be very suspicious initially.  That's not fair to the person that actually has the serious medical condition, or the rest of EN World.



I agree with you both.  A member of CM died recently, and it would have been awful if the first reaction was "Is this a hoax?"


----------



## ruemere (Mar 13, 2009)

_Disclaimer: I am not, nor I have been involved with Reveille in anyway. However, I have been working in moderator capacity from time to time and I have had to deal with intelligent, yet ruthless people manipulating others._

1. Accounts are cheap. Banning will not stop a determined troll from disturbing peace.

2. Premeditated and vile manipulation of other feelings is heinous offense. In my time I have dealt it by inflicting harshest punishment imaginable:
- total removal of all posts (continuity be damned) - it hurts people who have made a lot of posts to lose stuff they produced over the course of years
OR
- ban and permanent attachment of "Mark of Shame" to all posts (essentially, a signature saying something like (in *bold red*):
"User Reveille has been banned for abusing trust of EnWorld community. 
 - signed: <moderator>" - that solution preserve worthwhile content while warning other members

3. This is Internet. Over years, I have met several talented individuals who wormed their way into hearts of others or who changed for worse. Also, sometimes accounts are stolen and used for nefarious purposes.
Social engineering attacks are based on appealing to your goodwill - remember this whenever someone asks you for something. Just be careful.

Regards,
Ruemere


----------



## Piratecat (Mar 13, 2009)

Edgewood said:


> I'm proud to be an EnWorlder!



Me, too. The outpouring of caring really made me proud to be part of this community. What Charles Ryan and others have said rings very true to me. Moderation-wise, I understand that peoples' opinions of the correct consequences are going to vary. We'll make the call we think is best, and thanks for respecting that even if it isn't necessarily what you'd do.



Olaf the Stout said:


> If you really want to contact him I'm sure the mods could give you his e-mail address.



If you click on his name next to one of his posts, the option to email him should still work.


----------



## Klaus (Mar 13, 2009)

In the immortal words of Eric Noah:

"Well, crap on a stick!"


----------



## Charwoman Gene (Mar 13, 2009)

Relique du Madde said:


> Many of you NEVER posted in the HIVE.



_Deliberate attempt to pick a fight removed by admin._

It's just a reprehensible childish thing to do.  I find it kinda ironic that I am going through health issues and scares right now while he was pulling this.


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## reveal (Mar 13, 2009)

Umbran said:


> But, he has drawn on that reserve of goodwill under false pretenses.  Now, if someone has a real problem, and actually needs to draw on the community for support, people are going to be reserved, a bit skeptical.  Folks with problems may not get what they need, because everyone's going to wonder, in the back of their heads, if this is "another Rev".
> 
> His intent may not have been to be able to laugh at our gullibility, but the effect is to distance us from each other.  That is not harmless.




That's taking it a bit far. Understandable since emotions are flying high now. But look at it this way; over on CM, a user named Del faked his own death. The community banded together and an outpouring of sympathy came forth. When it was learned that it was an "April Fools" joke, he was quickly and vehemently chastised. He wasn't banned but he, smartly, never came back. The community had spoken and he paid heed.

His behavior didn't cause the rest of us to become more cynical and scoff others when they had problems, saying things like "this is just Del all over again." No, we kept going and treated everyone the same. In fact, we probably became a bit closer because we all had more in common; our sympathy for Del at first and then our loathing of him. It also allowed folks to see other member's true colors; it's amazing how much of a person's true nature can be gleaned by how they treat others in a moment of crisis.

I think folks here should wait at least a week or more to let their emotions run their course before deciding on a more "permanent" punishment for Rev.


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## DaveMage (Mar 13, 2009)

Amphimir Míriel said:


> I suspected, but decided to take it at face value.





Same here.  Somthing like this happened at CM a while back, so it was a bit familiar at the start.  It was also off that the fiance would bother to come here during such a time (unless, of course, she was a regular poster).  Usually, when a loved one is in the hospital, all the focus goes there - not spending time on message boards.


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## Umbran (Mar 13, 2009)

Thanee said:


> Hmm... did anyone actually ask him for his reasons?




Yes, we did.  However, we will not engage in a "telephone game" here, especially when we clearly disagree on whether it was appropriate.  If you want to know his side of the story, you'll have to ask him.  

Similarly, no, we are not going to discuss how we caught him.


----------



## Sir Osis of Liver (Mar 13, 2009)

Relique du Madde said:


> He paid nothing for his wrongfulness is utter BS.
> 
> Many of you NEVER posted in the HIVE.  You never had a thousand post long conversations with Rev so you can't imagine the amount of doubt and damage this can cause to anyone's relationship with him on ENWorld.
> 
> ...




I agree 110%. What Rev did was was wrong and hurtful, and he most certainly has paid a price for it.


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## Drkfathr1 (Mar 13, 2009)

Sometimes I hate being a cynic, but in times like these I'm glad. My shennanigan meter was off the scale with this, but I chose to remain neutral. 

I would say that he obviously has personal issues and needs help, but that's certainly no excuse for taking advantage of others emotionally. 

It does do the cynic in me good to see the outpouring of sympathy this community offered, and even now that a hoax has been revealed, its interesting to see the offers of forgiveness as well. 

Gives me a bit of hope for human nature.


----------



## diaglo (Mar 13, 2009)

Klaus said:


> In the immortal words of Eric Noah:
> 
> "Well, crap on a stick!"




this.


----------



## guivre (Mar 13, 2009)

Teflon Billy said:


> Called it.
> 
> What did it for me was just the sheer nonsense of that last message from "Mandy"
> 
> ...




This.

It was dubious before but at that point it became obvious that it wasn't real. It wasn't worth risking a ban to point out my doubts though so for once I exercised caution and stayed away


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## xechnao (Mar 13, 2009)

Perhaps Rev has a real and actual problem. What he did might have been a way of expressing this. 

It is true that what he did has offended the standards of the code of conduct, but remember that the code of conduct runs on artificial time intervals. We must judge his offense in respect to reality, not in respect to the code itself. This is why he has to have the right of a chance of defending himself. So, I think that any decision regarding his penalty has to be made after judging Rev's reaction with the chance given to him.

This helps to judge better and it also helps to reveal what ever other things might hide behind what has happened. A necessary condition for this process is that Rev must understand before defending himself what the penalties might be.


EDIT: I see that moderation has addressed this already.


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## Eridanis (Mar 13, 2009)

S'mon said:


> I suggest in a future similar situation that those with particular expertise or knowledge contact the moderators, who may then be able to make enquiries and confirm or refute suspicions.  If they are able to determine it's a hoax, they can then take action to end it before it runs so long and hurts so many people.




Exactly right. "I think he's lying" is not helpful; "I think he's lying because..." will make us think about it.

For my part, as soon as the first post was made, I checked IPs to see if someone was trying to hoax us. When the IPs for the two accounts were the same, I figured that made sense. (If there's engaged, they certainly could have been living togehter; I'm not privy to anyone's living arrangements!) That allayed my suspicions. But it didn't occur to me that someone who had contributed so much for so long would feel the need to do this.


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## I'm A Banana (Mar 13, 2009)

Meh. It's a jerk thing to do, but I think I'm proud to be a member of ENWorld. It brought out the best in the boards, even if it happened for the most deceptive of reasons.

This place is awesome, and that thread shows it. 

It's a dick move, but if you're fabricating comas on D&D message boards, you've probably got more significant issues than lying on the interwebs, so here's hoping that the outpouring of karma Rev got helps him through whatever issues he's embroiled in. Dude obviously needs to re-examine his behavior.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Mar 13, 2009)

I don't know why Reveille did what he did, but it was a bad idea. A lack of judgement, an emotional problem, I don't know. 

Just as we showed our support for when he seemed ill, it is appropriate for us to show our disappointment. Frankly, I don't know if I would have banned him or not, but I clearly could never talk to him like I could before. I am often in the hive, and I wouldn't know how to react to him. It couldn't really "trust" him, nor would I be interesting in confronting him. So I do not disagree with the mods decision. 

On the "bad joke" matter - I tend to think there are no bad jokes just because they might or might not offend someone. I think the intention matters more, and at the moment I can't believe of an intention that is "harmless" and doesn't indicate a personal problem.



Olaf the Stout said:


> That's my thoughts precisely on the matter.  If a serious medical condition happened to anyone else on EN World in the future most people will now be very suspicious initially.  That's not fair to the person that actually has the serious medical condition, or the rest of EN World.
> 
> Olaf the Stout



And it's not like it didn't happen before that community members got _really_ ill - and even died. I still remember the case of angelsboi - it was in a time where I was more a newbie, so I don't have such a deep connection to his case than others might have, but... it was a sad moment where the community showed its strength. And we wouldn't want a "joke" like this destroy that. Well, I wouldn't want to.


----------



## Jack99 (Mar 13, 2009)

vagabundo said:


> Several people have posted how it brought up their own painful experiences, they put their trust and time into good wishes for him and, now, to find out that it was a hoax is pretty harmful IMO.
> 
> Trust is a valuable resource and squandering it is a Bad thing...




Please do not get me wrong. I am not in any way advocating that Rev didn't do something wrong, nor that there shouldn't be some sort of punishment. I guess I just do not equate "bringing up painful experiences" with "emotional harm". Emotional harm is something much more lasting and dangerous.

Cheers


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## The_Fan (Mar 13, 2009)

I'm only a peripheral member of "the community." I've been lurking here for years but only a rare poster (Note the odd combination of low post count with ancient join date), so I only followed this from the sidelines. I didn't feel like I should say anything because I didn't know him, had probably never even replied to one of his posts, so it wasn't my place to say anything.

I was curious, though. I work in the medial field (not a doctor, just an army medic staffing a hospital), and the whole thing just seemed a bit off. I wanted to ask all sorts of questions, maybe even take it up with my local doctors to see what they said, but again, didn't because I figured the doctors outside the army are probably better than those in. However, when she talked about his talking in the coma that was when my BS detector went off. I was not surprised when not too long after the thread was locked and the truth revealed.

I wonder what would possess a longtime member of any community to act in such a manner. It seems very uncharacteristic from what everyone has said about him and what I have observed in the past lurking. Then again, people do strange things. Maybe he never intended it to go as far as it did. Maybe he felt the need for attention. Maybe (hopefully not) he thought it was funny. Given the moderators have already made their decision and don't wish to share their private conversations with him, it is all just pointless speculation and venting of collective spleens.

I say we should take the response as a sign of a healthy community. We should be wary in the future, but that doesn't mean cynical. Use this as an opportunity to forge a stronger bond in this online community.

As for the person that started it, I hope that Rev can find a more healthy outlet for his issues in the future. Whatever drove him to do this, I hope that he can seek the help he needs to deal with those issues.


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## Mallus (Mar 13, 2009)

I think banning him was a good idea, for any number of reasons.

I also think continuing to pray for him, for those inclined to pray, is also a good idea (at least once the anger subsides). This doesn't seem like a joke to me. This seems like a desperate attempt to find some validation --albeit at the expense of others. 

I believe he's still ill, just not in the way his hoax claimed.


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## Voadam (Mar 13, 2009)

Has anyone met Mandy and the kids or are his internet postings the only corroboration of his fiancee's existence?


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## Shemeska (Mar 13, 2009)

This sucks. My worry and good will feel used, and to be honest I start to doubt literally everything Rev has ever said here on Enworld. What would "Rev's Mandy" think of this stunt? Do they even exist in the first place or are they entirely made up as well?

Whatever the reason for hoaxing and exploiting the community's faith, Rev needs psychological help. Please get counseling.


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## DonTadow (Mar 13, 2009)

Piratecat said:


> We have a policy of never discussing moderator action. In this case, though, I'm going to make an exception because we'll need to talk about this. It's a community issue that affects many of us.
> 
> It has come to our attention that Reveille wasn't sick. He created the 'Rev's Mandy' account and fabricated his illness. I'm honestly not sure why; maybe he wanted attention, or needed to gauge how people felt about him. I don't want to guess, and I'm not sure I'm fit to judge, but there's no doubt about this and no possible mistake.
> 
> ...



1st, wow that was a jerk thing to do. Especially if you've been here for a while and have seen people battling difficult illnesses. It seemed like areal bonehead thing to do. 

Trying to figure out his motives, Wasn't it Reveille who ran a social experiment (not as crude) a few years back that upset everyone because it wasn't based on a real situation.  For some reason i remember it being d and d related but delving into serious moral issues.  

Last, we all made dumb decisions and then pressed enter, everyone whose been banned before raise their hand.  Sure Rel continued to do it, but I"ve learned that you never know what is going on in someones life that effects their bonehead actions.  Not giving anyon an excuse, just trying to understand why i would forgive him.


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## jaerdaph (Mar 13, 2009)

Well, I'm going to keep Rev in my prayers because, while it might not have been a coma, he's still suffering from an illness. I hope and pray he gets the help he needs and finds some relief from whatever is tormenting him and eventually some happiness.


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## Evil_Dead_Jedi (Mar 13, 2009)

Wow. So many thoughts. First, I want to thankt he Mods for letting us have this special place to post our venting and frustration.

I have to admit I was tricked up until the point of the Deity names being spoken post. But I didn't want to be a jerk and say anything I might regret later. But now it's open season. Part of me thinks what he did was hilarious because I love chaos and wrongness. But since chaos is what it is, I also feel very very betrayed. I am a volunteer firefighter, I've seen some nasty things. I've been through fire school and I am currently in EMT school, so the whole story intrigued me and I felt very drawn to it. It was the first set of posts I checked every time I got on the computer. When I read the very first post my heart sank because I know how people feel emotionally when things happen to loved ones.

I think what he did was completely wrong and I am glad he is banned. I know if he ever makes another account and it comes out it's him, people will treat him like crap and it will only get us in trouble. Quite frankly, and maybe it's part of just who I am and part of the things I've seen in the fire service, I really don't care if he has some mental issues and did this because he needs help. He went about it the wrong way and he did it for far too long to justify it.

However, even though it emotionally hurt many of us, myself included, I am proud of the community to have poured out their emotions like they did. It shows true character, especially when some of us were VERY suspicious about the whole thing (the deities thing especially).

The bottom line is (in my opinion) if he would have come clean after the first post it would be one thing, but to continually and purposefully attack our emotions is something completely different. He brought up too many bad emotions in many people. Not cool and unforgivable for me. Some people forgive very easy, but if you are like me and have been screwed over time and again in life by people you continually spend emotions on and forgive, forgiving doesn't come easy.

This has been very long winded, and I apologize for that. But I want to thank thank the Mods again for letting us speak about this so freely. And I want to end saying that I am glad Rev is not in a coma. Hopefully he gets the mental help he needs to get better. But if he doesn't, I don't really care as long as it doesn't affect our community any more.


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## Knightfall (Mar 13, 2009)

Shemeska said:


> This sucks. My worry and good will feel used, and to be honest I start to doubt literally everything Rev has ever said here on Enworld. What would "Rev's Mandy" think of this stunt? Do they even exist in the first place or are they entirely made up as well?
> 
> Whatever the reason for hoaxing and exploiting the community's faith, Rev needs psychological help. Please get counseling.



This.


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## Mark (Mar 13, 2009)

Most of us who have gotten to know Fru/Rev have discovered at some point that he has some developmental difficulties and limitations.  While this was extremely poor judgment on his part, this will not change the overall opinion I have that he is at his core a good human being who, perhaps through no fault of his own, makes some fairly poor decisions from time to time.  I choose to forgive him for this, though I certainly can understand the moderators' call and anyone who feels hurt by the emotional ride they have taken because of his postings.


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## wedgeski (Mar 13, 2009)

DonTadow said:


> Sure *Rel* continued to do it



Rev (Reveille) not Rel. Let's not allow any reputations to be accidentally sullied here!


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## Keith Robinson (Mar 13, 2009)

Well, I fell for it hook, line and sinker.  Oh well.  More fool me.  It was a really horrid thing to do, for sure, but I'm not gonna crucify the guy for it.  Who knows what's going on inside his head?  He's been banned and that's that.

Personally I also think the mods should delete the original thread, btw.


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## FickleGM (Mar 13, 2009)

wedgeski said:


> Rev (Reveille) not Rel. Let's not allow any reputations to be accidentally sullied here!



Don't worry, in this case that reputation was already sullied.


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## Ydars (Mar 13, 2009)

It is strange that I never felt emotionally involved with Reveille's situation, and for the life of me I cannot pin-point why. I read the entire thread and checked every day, but never felt like it was real somehow.

Something still isn't right though, so I have to ask: I am the only one thinking of Diaglo's "take-over" of the boards last year on April 1st?

I just mention this because people were talking earlier about how we should mention when our "spider sense" was tingling.
----- 
_Admin edit: Fair enough. I mentioned this earlier in the thread -- the timing is just unfortunate. This isn't an April Fools prank. I wish it were. I'm not a big fan of drama, and we don't find this funny in the least.  ~ Piratecat_​-----
I almost hope I am right because otherwise Reveille does need serious help, but somehow, I also hope I am wrong.

Either way, it looks like I am already not taking so much at face value on EN World.


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## LightPhoenix (Mar 13, 2009)

I had a suspicion as well, but decided to take the post at face value.  It's a shame, but it's not surprising; this sort of thing seems to happen a lot.  Regardless of the help that is needed, I hope that he gets it.


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## Aberzanzorax (Mar 13, 2009)

*The calls to not permaban him anger me.*

The calls to not permaban him anger me.


We know his actions, not his motives. At best it was a cry for help. Solution for that is GET HELP. At worst it was a joke. A monstrous, emotionally abusive joke. 


In neither case are his actions tolerable. 

In neither case will un-banning him help him in any way.

People can still support his getting help by emailing him, but allowing him to post would both enable him and make him a target.


I have my masters in clinical psychology. I'm one dissertation away from my doctorate. I have treated over 100 patients for a number of disorders from adjustment disorder and deprssion not otherwise specified up to more complex and difficult to treat disorders like schizophrenia and psychotic depression. 

Ascribing the motivations for this simply to mental health problems is, quite frankly, an insult to the mentally ill. People have a lot of misconceptions and stigma about the mentally ill. Jumping to the conclusion that he has mental health problems is bigoted. It's very pervasive bigotry, so many aren't aware. It happens every time there is a tragedy, as people don't want to believe that a "normal" person could do something. "They must be crazy. If only they had gotten help." Well, yes, they may have needed help, but it may not have been mental health care that they needed.

We know he made a huge error in judgement. That is all we know. Please, I'm NOT asking you to demonize him. I'm just asking to stop "making up" reasons like "he must really have some psychiatric issues". *You don't know that.* Plenty of people here DO have psychiatric issues, and post perfectly cogent, kind, reasonable, and nonmanipulative posts. Let's keep those folks around.


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## avin (Mar 13, 2009)

Being honest, I din't knew who he was and wasn't very impressed.

I found strange that a fiancée went into his computer, find Enworld and decided to post here. I think it was the last thing I would do.

But when "she" started to talk about D&D gods... well... that was the true red alert.

I'm just curious why he did that.

I support perma banning.


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## Kez Darksun (Mar 13, 2009)

I never knew Rev, so to see this be a hoax is more disappointing than hurtful, especially after seeing just how many people cared about him or just cared enough to add their well-wishes for him and his family.  If this was caused by something going on in his life, then I do hope he gets the help and support needed to get through it.  What I am going to take from this incident is not a lingering sense of hurt or disgust or disappointment, but rather a sense of gladness at the amount of support and caring shown by the community here.


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## Henry (Mar 13, 2009)

The part that ticks me off the most is that when something like this happens, it takes the trust that a community has in one or more of its members who have met each other in person, gamed with them, fellowshipped with them, and smashes it.

It makes any future discussions of someone's health or well-being suspect, and makes people distrustful of REAL situations like that in the future. How would someone like Angelsboi's death, or Chairman Kaga's, be received if you had a dozen people yelling "TROLL!" to them or friends of theirs who posted about their circumstances? Diaglo, Joe Carriker, and others knew Angelsboi personally, and I can only hope when he passed no one was tempted to yell " It's FAKE!" when it happened because of events like this recent one.

That's the real loss to me in a situation like this. I'll still continue to care, and offer help or kind words where I can, but it just adds one more barrier of distrust to a community that I otherwise consider to be a pretty friendly group of people.


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## Plane Sailing (Mar 13, 2009)

Hi folks,

Thanks for keeping your responses reasonable.

There is no connection with any April Fools pranks.

Please bear in mind Aberzanzorax's comments - if don't speculate on his motives or mental condition we are less likely to end up accidentally hurting any _other_ ENworld member.

Personally, I'm happy to approach any reports of problems from community members in good faith in the first instance, and will continue to do so. It may mean that sometimes I'll get suckered, but I'd rather that happen than that I fail to offer condolences and prayers for those who are in need.

Thanks guys.


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## Jack7 (Mar 13, 2009)

I kind of became suspicious when there seemed to be no real effort to respond in any way to investigate the possible real causes of the supposed coma.

If someone were in a real coma it seems to me the first thing anyone, laymen or doctor would investigate would be cause.

Then the fake deities thing really put the cap on it for me. Not knowing the guy it seemed an unlikely coincidence.

But I'd say he probably either does need help of some kind, or he thought it would be some kind of elaborate April's Fools joke.

If he does need help then Godspeed to him, if it was an April Fools joke then he didn't think it out very far, as to how others would react to the details and set-up of the joke.

I forgive him for his motivations either way, of course I really have nothing invested in him as an individual.

I do think though he owes those whose trust he betrayed an apology and some real thought and consideration on how this might have been perceived by some.

It seems like the guy is acting like the kind of teenager whose chief concern might be "punking people." If that is the case then that kind of thing won't take you very far in life for very long, and should be reserved for your best buddies on the weekend, not for the wider world over a long period of time.

But if I'm not mistaken, and I've have to go back and reread the various entries, didn't he have some assistance in his "joke." Didn't some people say they had visited him in the hospital?

Or maybe I am recalling wrong. Maybe someone said they intended to visit him and that was the way the deception was uncovered - I haven't had the time to read every entry in either thread.

In any case now that you are "awake" Rev, _and who hasn't done something dumbass in their life that they later regret_, just think about this in that regard and I hope you will feel an inclination to apologize to your friends whose trust and concern you actually did betray.

I'm sure they will forgive you, just don't push your luck by making this kind of thing a habit in life.

It seems a lot funnier on TV than it does in real life.
And maybe that's part of the problem, confusing fantasy and fiction for real life.

In a fantasy or fictional world you just start over, no harm done. In real life you have actual obligations in your behavior towards others.

In real life *Character* means far more than a set of disconnected rolled up attributes. _*It's what other men and women can trust you to be.*_ Can expect you to be. Can rely on you to be. Friends, or strangers.

So, maybe think about the difference.
Sometimes we dream we are "awake" and very wise, so much more clever than everyone else, when in actuality we are asleep to everything but ourselves. 

And good luck with your meditations on the matter.



> Personally, I'm happy to approach any reports of problems from community members in good faith in the first instance, and will continue to do so. It may mean that sometimes I'll get suckered, but I'd rather that happen than that I fail to offer condolences and prayers for those who are in need.
> 
> Thanks guys.




Well said.


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## Ydars (Mar 13, 2009)

Ydars said:


> _Admin edit: Fair enough. I mentioned this earlier in the thread -- the timing is just unfortunate. This isn't an April Fools prank. I wish it were. I'm not a big fan of drama, and we don't find this funny in the least. ~ Piratecat_​




Thanks for that Piratecat!  I sort of knew that this was going WAY too far for an April Fool's joke, but then the internet constantly wrong-foots me, so on somedays I really don't know which way is up.

I just hope that this WAS an April Fool's joke by Reveille, that has sort of gone wrong. That I could vaguely understand.......................


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## JeffB (Mar 13, 2009)

I have some choice words for him- but of course thats against the rules.

Glad he's banned- that was beyond low. I watched my father have a siezure after a long bout with Alzheimers and slip into a coma for a few weeks, waste away and eventually die when we took him off "life support".  I found myself  getting back into that scenario mentally in depth everytime I checked Revs thread.  So I felt bad for him, and for "Mandy"- I felt awful reading it, but I hopd for the best.

Karma will find him.


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## Tewligan (Mar 13, 2009)

Jack7 said:


> But if I'm not mistaken, and I've have to go back and reread the various entries, didn't he have some assistance in his "joke." Didn't some people say they had visited him in the hospital?



The only one who said they had visited him was "Mandy", who turned out to be an account that Reveille created just for the hoax.

I'm totally fine with him being permabanned.


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## JeffB (Mar 13, 2009)

double post


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## Knight Otu (Mar 13, 2009)

Disappointing. What suspicions I had (and having witnessed the situation with Del, I did have suspicions) were allayed by thinking that Reveille wouldn't need that kind of validation. But the bit with the FR gods...


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## Jack7 (Mar 13, 2009)

> The only one who said they had visited him was "Mandy", who turned out to be an account that Reveille created just for the hoax.




That's good then.
No sense involving others in the scheme.


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## Thanee (Mar 13, 2009)

Umbran said:


> Yes, we did.  However, we will not engage in a "telephone game" here, especially when we clearly disagree on whether it was appropriate.  If you want to know his side of the story, you'll have to ask him.
> 
> Similarly, no, we are not going to discuss how we caught him.




Fair enough. 

Bye
Thanee


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## freyar (Mar 13, 2009)

Wow, this has happened on some boards my wife visits, but I have to say I didn't expect this to happen here.  

In any case, I'd like to thank the mods and admins for handling this professionally as always.  I'm also proud to see how the community is dealing with this issue.


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## S'mon (Mar 13, 2009)

DonTadow said:


> Trying to figure out his motives, Wasn't it Reveille who ran a social experiment (not as crude) a few years back that upset everyone because it wasn't based on a real situation.  For some reason i remember it being d and d related but delving into serious moral issues.




I had forgotten that, but now I remember (vaguely).  I recall it really yanking our chains and getting us going for a good long time, before he did the big reveal.  He claimed it was a real situation, then eventually revealed it was just hypothetical.   Hmm, that does shed new light on this.


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## Ktulu (Mar 13, 2009)

I was skeptical when someone named Reveille "couldn't wake up", but I wasn't going to be snarky in case it was true.

It is sad how far people will deceive for attention.

Oh well, on to more exciting stuff...Anyone reading the PHII thread!?!


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## jaerdaph (Mar 13, 2009)

Chronic Illness: Munchausen by Internet: Faking Illness Online

I'm not saying that this is or isn't what happened here, but an interesting read nonetheless.


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## Halivar (Mar 13, 2009)

I think the real lesson here, and the most important, is this: _On the internet, you don't know anyone._. You may think you know them, but you don't. Regardless of how much time, words, or emotions you may have shared with someone over the internet, you don't know anything about them. Misrepresentation and emotional manipulation aren't just dangers for teenagers on MySpace.


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## rowport (Mar 13, 2009)

Relique du Madde said:


> I think everyone needs to step back and breath a little.   Rev was a valued member of our community for YEARS before he did this.  Sure he may have tarnished his reputation in a huge way, but he shouldn't be perma-banned for one lapse of judgment.
> 
> If anything you should look at what he did in this way:  He showed each and everyone of use how fragile this digital existance truly is.  He made us realize that if something happened to one of us it would truly difficult for anyone to know because it is easy to fabricate lies on the internet.  He also showed that having purely textual relationships over a digital network is foolish since it is difficult because how much information and disinformation exists.    He tought us a valid and much needed lesson, so don't damn him because you didn't get the "harr-harr" or because you felt hurt/deceived by his cry for help.
> 
> If anyone on ENWorld deserves a second chance, it's Rev.




Hey, you know what?  I felt bad for the guy (and his "fiancee") and now I feel like a sap.  I have had two friends die young-- an ex-girlfriend at 22 and a former teammate at 38 leaving his wife and kids behind.  I was also *in* a coma after a car accident, and know first-hand the kind of worry it put on my family, if only for a day.

So, please spare me your "second chance" nonsense.  The guy is a liar.  And worse, he is a liar who preys on others' compassion.


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## CharlesRyan (Mar 13, 2009)

Henry said:


> The part that ticks me off the most is that when something like this happens, it takes the trust that a community has in one or more of its members who have met each other in person, gamed with them, fellowshipped with them, and smashes it. [. . . ]
> 
> It just adds one more barrier of distrust to a community that I otherwise consider to be a pretty friendly group of people.




Henry, I understand your anger, especially in light of the deep personal investment you've made in this excellent community.

If it makes you feel any better, I don't foresee it affecting me in the manner you describe. Call me a sucker, but I'm not the type to assume the worst in someone just because someone else has misbehaved. This is a large and vibrant community, and for better or worse there will be others who suffer crisis or even death. I don't foresee myself reacting any differently following this event.

I'm not the first to comment on what a great community this issue has shown ENWorld to be. I don't think Rev's actions have the power to change that.


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## Rykion (Mar 13, 2009)

Plane Sailing said:


> Personally, I'm happy to approach any reports of problems from community members in good faith in the first instance, and will continue to do so. It may mean that sometimes I'll get suckered, but I'd rather that happen than that I fail to offer condolences and prayers for those who are in need.



This.

A red flag went off in my head from the start of "Mandy's" posts, but I'd rather fall into a hundred hoaxes then fail to offer support when it was needed.


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## EATherrian (Mar 13, 2009)

Umbran said:


> Yes, we did.  However, we will not engage in a "telephone game" here, especially when we clearly disagree on whether it was appropriate.  If you want to know his side of the story, you'll have to ask him.
> 
> Similarly, no, we are not going to discuss how we caught him.




To add some lightening to this depressing thread (to me at least) I'm going to assume that catching him involved beautiful ladies on tropical beaches and dead drops in third world slums.  And I bet Joe Don Baker was involved somehow...


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## Roland55 (Mar 13, 2009)

Halivar said:


> I think the real lesson here, and the most important, is this: _On the internet, you don't know anyone._. You may think you know them, but you don't. Regardless of how much time, words, or emotions you may have shared with someone over the internet, you don't know anything about them. Misrepresentation and emotional manipulation aren't just dangers for teenagers on MySpace.




Very true.

So I've been 'scammed.'  Big deal, I'll get over it ... in fact, I'm nearly over it now.

Too bad for Rev, though.  I get the feeling he lived a significant portion of his life here.  He made a bad mistake, and I hope he gets over it, himself.

Time for everyone to move on.


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## Bront (Mar 13, 2009)

Relique du Madde said:


> I think everyone needs to step back and breath a little.   Rev was a valued member of our community for YEARS before he did this.  Sure he may have tarnished his reputation in a huge way, but he shouldn't be perma-banned for one lapse of judgment.
> 
> If anything you should look at what he did in this way:  He showed each and everyone of use how fragile this digital existance truly is.  He made us realize that if something happened to one of us it would truly difficult for anyone to know because it is easy to fabricate lies on the internet.  He also showed that having purely textual relationships over a digital network is foolish since it is difficult because how much information and disinformation exists.    He tought us a valid and much needed lesson, so don't damn him because you didn't get the "harr-harr" or because you felt hurt/deceived by his cry for help.
> 
> If anyone on ENWorld deserves a second chance, it's Rev.



Two thoughts on this.

1) Enworld is "Grandma Friendly".  Would you put your grandma though this?

2) This isn't the first time this has happened on the net, nor will it be the last, but it is truly unacceptable behavior.  Whatever made him do this, simply accepting it and welcoming him back is not the right answer.

I've always thought of Rev as a nice guy, and because of that, I never thought twice about this being a hoax when there were clear signs that it was.  Numerous people here, and even not here, spent countless hours worrying, praying, and trying to see what they could do.  You could have easily had people send money thinking that might help.  Heck, my grandmother has been praying about this because I mentioned it to her.  Not to mention all the people who have had to deal with a flood of memories of when their loved ones were in the hospital or in a coma.

There is nothing acceptable about this behavior.  I wish him the best of luck, and hope he learns from this, but letting him back in is simply patting him on the back and saying "It's ok, just don't do it again."


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## Silverblade The Ench (Mar 13, 2009)

Meh, I suffer from a very real very bloody nasty chronic illness: the net, D&D and art, are large part of what keeps me going.

Rev' is either seriously screwed up and hurting (clinical depression sucks like hellfire, ugh and other mental woes must be horrible to live with), or he's a twisted, facile, pathetic SOB.
I don't get it, he was so nice. Why be a dick?
Either way I pity him 

Cousin's kid was in a coma due ot diabetes which thank God and medical science, he came out of ok. no parent should have to go through that.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Mar 13, 2009)

I have personal experience with the mentally ill.  I have personal experience with family members who have fallen into such illnesses that they have been hospitalized until they died.

I had just joined up on these boards when Angelsboi passed.  I didn't know him, but I saw what those who knew him went through.

In short- this wasn't funny to me.

Actions have consequences, and if Moderators are to be able to do their jobs effectively, we have to know that there are boundaries that we cannot cross.

I can find it in my heart to forgive Rev, but I won't forget.  Motive doesn't really matter here.  A permaban, IMHO, is justified, if for no other reason than to let everyone know that there are consequences to bad behavior.  I will continue to pray for those who ask for help, but for those who are later determined to be frauds I have no sympathy.


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## CapnZapp (Mar 13, 2009)

Korgoth said:


> Well, I'm glad he's not currently in a coma. On the other hand, I'm also glad that he has been banned.



This pretty much sums up everything that needs to be said.

Let's get these threads unstickied and forget about the stupid thing.


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## Maggan (Mar 13, 2009)

This is just my take on the situation, but I'm feeling a vibe of "let's bag on Relique" in this thread.

He is not the bad guy here.

/M


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## Relique du Madde (Mar 13, 2009)

rowport said:


> Hey, you know what?  I felt bad for the guy (and his "fiancee") and now I feel like a sap.  I have had two friends die young-- an ex-girlfriend at 22 and a former teammate at 38 leaving his wife and kids behind.  I was also *in* a coma after a car accident, and know first-hand the kind of worry it put on my family, if only for a day.
> 
> So, please spare me your "second chance" nonsense.  The guy is a liar.  And worse, he is a liar who preys on others' compassion.






Bront said:


> Two thoughts on this.
> 
> 1) Enworld is "Grandma Friendly".  Would you put your grandma though this?
> 
> ...





Don't lecture me.  Don't crucify me.   Sure, I was willing to give him a second chance.  That was before the HIVE's side investigation revealed that a good deal of the people who posted there never existed.   They were all alts. of Rev.   A lot of us had our suspicions but we never wanted to investigate before last night..

Sadly, our little corner of ENWorld is the most devastated.


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## Relique du Madde (Mar 13, 2009)

rowport said:


> Hey, you know what?  I felt bad for the guy (and his "fiancee") and now I feel like a sap.  I have had two friends die young-- an ex-girlfriend at 22 and a former teammate at 38 leaving his wife and kids behind.  I was also *in* a coma after a car accident, and know first-hand the kind of worry it put on my family, if only for a day.
> 
> So, please spare me your "second chance" nonsense.  The guy is a liar.  And worse, he is a liar who preys on others' compassion.






Bront said:


> Two thoughts on this.
> 
> 1) Enworld is "Grandma Friendly".  Would you put your grandma though this?
> 
> ...





Don't lecture me.  Don't crucify me.   Sure, I was willing to give him a second chance.  That was before the HIVE's side investigation revealed that a good deal of the people who posted there never existed.   They were all alts. of Rev.   A lot of us had our suspicions but we never wanted to investigate before last night..

Sadly, our little corner of ENWorld is the most devastated.


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## frankthedm (Mar 13, 2009)

rowport said:


> So, please spare me your "second chance" nonsense.  The guy is a liar.  And worse, he is a liar who preys on others' compassion.



I do think there is a chance you are attributing more malice than there is. However, I do fully agree with you about _No Second Chance_ though. If he could post something like that, then it is a good thing he is not posting here anymore, regardless of _why_ he did it.


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## catsclaw227 (Mar 13, 2009)

OK, so last night when I read that the whole thing was a hoax, I had to step away and sleep on it before coming back to post.  I have read through this whole thread and everyone's comments.

When I first read about his coma, it brought back memories.  I went through a very difficult coma with someone who was one of my best friends (if not the best friend).  I had an emotional moment with my wife, discussing my experience as well as her experience going into a coma when she was 13 years old in Russia and found out she had Diabetes, Type I.

In the original thread, just after we got the "Rev woke up" message, I posted that I had a cynical thought that it was a hoax.  I had to fluff it up, sugar-coat it, and dance around the fact that I though it was fake, but I was SO VERY GLAD it wasn't fake.  In that post, I mentioned my friend, and I was relieved that it wasn't a hoax and that my mixed emotions weren't justified.

_EDIT:  I was really worried that I would be crucified by posting my hoax concerns, even though I buffered it.
_

Then Rev posted about how he needed to stay in the hospital for a little bit and then do physical therapy. This felt like confirmation that my hoax fears were happily unjustified.

Now I feel ticked off, angry at Rev (and, apparently, the many incarnations of Rev), and I agree with the permaban.  I don't know why he did it, what his motivations were, but that doesn't matter. 

I gleaned from Umbran's post that Rev and the moderators disagreed about whether his reasons justified their moderation actions.  

This gives me the impression that this was another social experiment and we were the rats.

Not funny, not appropriate, not cool.  



Relique du Madde said:


> That was before the HIVE's side investigation revealed that a good deal of the people who posted there never existed.   They were all alts. of Rev.   A lot of us had our suspicions but we never wanted to investigate before last night..
> 
> Sadly, our little corner of ENWorld is the most devastated.



I don't think anyone can say their little corner was "most devastated".  The coma story apparently hit a lot of people in very personal ways.  There is no "hurt more than other people" thing going on here.

BTW, isn't a "side investigation" by a bunch of forum members that reveals the identity of community members a violation of the privacy we agreed to?


----------



## Relique du Madde (Mar 13, 2009)

catsclaw227 said:


> .
> 
> BTW, isn't a "side investigation" by a bunch of forum members that reveals the identity of community members a violation of the privacy we agreed to?




Not in this case.  The HIVE gave a list of suspected possible alts to the staff.  Each of these alts correlated to a period of time where Rev vanished and a new member started posting.   Many of those "suspected alts" lost their avatars and community supporter status, which means only one thing:  They must have been Rev's alts.

Everyone who posted within the HIVE during the last 6 months became a target to one of his alts which were parodies based on different aspects of the individual. (One of those suspected alts as a parody of my user name and was "a lurker infatuated with me").  

He tricked us.  Manipulated us. Made fools of us and drug us into his sick little game.  For what?  Who knows.   Sure I was willing to give him a second chance.  Not anymore.  The damage he done to ENWorld's small little side community in the HIVE made things extremely personal.  We all trusted him and his those suspected alts of his, and now discovered that some of our suspicions were true.  That many of those individuals could have been cooked up be him.

Yeah, pe played a game with everyone here.  Most of you only dealt with this last month long affair.  However a group of a dozen or so posters here were subject to it for who knows how long.


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## frankthedm (Mar 13, 2009)

catsclaw227 said:


> BTW, isn't a "side investigation" by a bunch of forum members that reveals the identity of community members a violation of the privacy we agreed to?



First off most message board record poster's IPs for the mods and admins. Unless Reveille was ghosting his IP Address, mods can find who's posting and where they live. 

Which indeed raises OTHER questions about how much the mods knew about the hive issue _prior_ to this.


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## Raven Crowking (Mar 13, 2009)

I have no idea what his motives were, but I am more sad than angry.  

RC


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## Blackrat (Mar 13, 2009)

catsclaw227 said:


> I don't think anyone can say their little corner was "most devastated".  The coma story apparently hit a lot of people in very personal ways.  There is no "hurt more than other people" thing going on here.



Yeah, I agree with you on this one.


> BTW, isn't a "side investigation" by a bunch of forum members that reveals the identity of community members a violation of the privacy we agreed to?



Yes, that would propably be a violation. But this investigation was only instigated by us, and actually performed by admins/mods as Relique already said. We only gathered our suspicions and PM'd them to Piratecat. He was kind enough to tell us that most of our suspicions were correct.


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## Bront (Mar 13, 2009)

Relique du Madde said:


> Don't lecture me.  Don't crucify me.   Sure, I was willing to give him a second chance.  That was before the HIVE's side investigation revealed that a good deal of the people who posted there never existed.   They were all alts. of Rev.   A lot of us had our suspicions but we never wanted to investigate before last night..
> 
> Sadly, our little corner of ENWorld is the most devastated.



First of all, I was simply countering your point.

Second of all, from a moderator/admin point of view, I was explaining the thought process that goes into a permaban.  I had no say in this (I deal with PbP stuff exclusively here at ENW), but in my view PC did the right thing even if nothing else other than this had surfaced.


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## jdrakeh (Mar 13, 2009)

Thank you for the revelation and explanation, PirateCat. This is at once an infuriating, sad, and unfortunate situation. I think you made the right call, though. There simply isn't _any_ excuse good enough to justify what Charles did here.


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## jaerdaph (Mar 13, 2009)

Funny thing (for me) is, while I never once thought this was a hoax and genuinely believed that Rev was in coma, I couldn't help but keep thinking to myself that Rev's girlfriend Mandy was a little... off.


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## Umbran (Mar 13, 2009)

catsclaw227 said:


> I gleaned from Umbran's post that Rev and the moderators disagreed about whether his reasons justified their moderation actions.




I wouldn't read into details too much, as that's not quite it.  Let me be as clear as I can:

That he did it at all suggests that, in some way, he felt it was okay to do so.  That he has been banned says that we did not agree.  That's as far as that goes, really. 

I said it to display that we have a fundamental conflict of interest regarding his reasons.  We won't put ourselves in the position of having anyone claim we misrepresented him - for good reason, we will not represent him at all.


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## Umbran (Mar 13, 2009)

Blackrat said:


> Yes, that would propably be a violation. But this investigation was only instigated by us, and actually performed by admins/mods as Relique already said. We only gathered our suspicions and PM'd them to Piratecat. He was kind enough to tell us that most of our suspicions were correct.




To be clear - in cases like this, banning alternate accounts that we can find is part of standard operating procedure.  We merely got more of them more quickly this way.


----------



## catsclaw227 (Mar 13, 2009)

Thanks for the clarification Umbran.  I didn't want to really read anything into it, but you know how things are...  

This whole thing was a bummer for lots and lots of people here.

And after reading a little bit in the hive (I hadn't ever posted there before), I can see how all the alternate identities he used could have really created some trust issues among their subset of Enworld members.


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## frankthedm (Mar 13, 2009)

catsclaw227 said:


> I gleaned from Umbran's post that Rev and the moderators disagreed about whether his reasons justified their moderation actions.



Do take note his posts still _exist_. The disagreement may have been whether or not to erase _everything_ Reveille had ever posted since te mods can do that. 







Kid Charlemagne said:


> Spammers are minions, since with a couple of clicks I can delete all their posts...


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## Relique du Madde (Mar 13, 2009)

frankthedm said:


> Do take note his posts still _exist_. The disagreement may have been whether or not to erase _everything_ Reveille had ever posted since te mods can do that.




Problem is he also posted in php games (like my own).  Though luckily his character didn't say much since it was played as an NPC mostly.


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## Rathan (Mar 13, 2009)

...................... "wow"

I didn't know Rev from Adam but I was genuinely concerned for his well being. Just another case of exactly how TOO trusting I am of people... something told me something wasn't right when Mandy came back with FR God's names but again I was duped just like we all were. I don't condone retribution at all but I think someone should kick HIS puppy for this deplorable and unbelievably selfish and thoughtless act. With the ban in place I hope people see now and in the future that this place DOES hold it's communities mental states in high regard. Regardless of what  made Rev do this is moot, the fact that he could toy with everyone's heartstrings that he cared about or at least interacted with on a daily basis is what this is all about. I am truly sorry not only for myself in falling into something so underhanded, but to the rest of all of you that did was well moreover.... the people of this world never and will never seice to amaze me...

*shakes his head softly as he sighs a disheartened sigh*


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## roguerouge (Mar 13, 2009)

Go ahead and forgive him, but hold him accountable.

Put me down in the permaban camp; I'd also be in favor of a mark of shame attachment to his posts and to his alts' posts. If he hadn't been in PbP, I'd have agreed with removing them entirely. According to this thread, he's pulled hoaxes like this in the past and abused the trust of many before this point. 

Actions must have consequences for communities to function. Serial abusers of trust may deserve forgiveness, if they work to earn it, but that forgiveness should not enable them to continue to harm yourself or others. 

This community's first responsibility is to protect itself from trust-predators like Rev.


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## roguerouge (Mar 13, 2009)

I speak as a teacher who's twice caught students pulling the "fake death in the family" excuse to get extensions. As a result, I now have to tell grieving students to bring me a death notice from the newspaper, which is a burden that I sincerely wish I did not have to impose.


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## Relique du Madde (Mar 13, 2009)

Rathan said:


> *shakes his head softly as he sighs a disheartened sigh*



QFT. Emphasis mine.


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## billd91 (Mar 13, 2009)

frankthedm said:


> Do take note his posts still _exist_. The disagreement may have been whether or not to erase _everything_ Reveille had ever posted since te mods can do that.




I don't think they should be erased. Nor do I think any posts should be erased that do not, themselves, violate policy. In any thread he participated in, removing his posts would remove the context that some of the rest of us policy-followers might find valuable.


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## Knight Otu (Mar 13, 2009)

After reading the tail end of the last Hive and the current one, this has gone way past "disappointing." While I had pretty much no interaction with Rev's alts (I told him something he already knew it seems ), he has used them to abuse the trust of several people. He crossed far more lines than should be crossed.

Now, I have an alt, but I've been pretty up-front about it, and even added it to my signature some time ago. I also used it mostly for silliness, or when I couldn't really use this account (which is why I created that account in the first place).


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## Woas (Mar 13, 2009)

Dang, too bad there wasn't a Rickroll at the end.


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## Shemeska (Mar 13, 2009)

The more I stew on this, the angrier I am to be honest. 

Rev/Fru isn't quite into "stepping out of the books" territory with the crap he pulled, but damn if he isn't trying his best, and he easily did it in a much more callous, hurtful way.


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## meomwt (Mar 13, 2009)

Raven Crowking said:


> I have no idea what his motives were, but I am more sad than angry.
> 
> RC




As the man said. 

I did a sopt of moderating, some time ago, on a non-RPG board. It's a hard job. Mods need the trust both of the Community and the guy who runs the show. It's a job where I always felt that I was looking over both shoulders. 

As for what the Moderating Staff have done in this instance, I appreciate 100% what a difficult decision it was and support them whole-heartedly. 

I'd also like to suggest that alternat accounts should be banned, and everyone here lives and dies by one account and one account name. Other boards I'm on enforce this rule, and disobedience is punishable by a temporary ban. 

It would make situations such as this less likely to occur again.


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## jdrakeh (Mar 13, 2009)

Shemeska said:


> Rev/Fru isn't quite into "stepping out of the books" territory with the crap he pulled, but damn if he isn't trying his best, and he easily did it in a much more callous, hurtful *and deceitful* way.




I propose the above friendly ammendment to your statement. At least with that other guy, you knew what you were getting up front. Part of why _this_ was so hurtful is because Fru/Rev wasn't the kind of poster that people expected to abuse their trust and emotions like he did.


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## Treebore (Mar 13, 2009)

Now being made aware of what he was doing in the HIVE I am now OK with permanently banning him. I am far less interested in forgiving him as well, and definitely have no interest in ever visiting him in Phoenix and participating in any games with him. Trust will never happen.


On a different note, I wonder why a person in a coma talking about the gods of faerun would set off alarm bells? A person in coma does talk, and they often talk about things that happened in their life, or things that make no sense to family members. So a gamer, talking about deities from a game he was prepping for while in a coma, is a very real possibility. So I am curious as to why that was suspicious to people.


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## Mark (Mar 13, 2009)

Woas said:


> Dang, too bad there wasn't a Rickroll at the end.





Perhaps in the future, people will link to this thread and say that someone has been RevRolled.


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## S'mon (Mar 13, 2009)

Relique du Madde said:


> Don't lecture me.  Don't crucify me.   Sure, I was willing to give him a second chance.  That was before the HIVE's side investigation revealed that a good deal of the people who posted there never existed.   They were all alts. of Rev.   A lot of us had our suspicions but we never wanted to investigate before last night..
> 
> Sadly, our little corner of ENWorld is the most devastated.




So, you've changed your mind now that he's hurt you personally?


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## Pbartender (Mar 13, 2009)

So, I don't know Rev very well, except by acquaintance and reputation here.  When I first saw the other thread, I read through the first page or two, but didn't really follow along after that...  I was just waiting to see how it fell out in the end.

When it locked, it looked like there was some sort of resolution, so I went scanning through to catch up on the whole story.  the following post stopped me cold:



			
				Rev's Mandy said:
			
		

> As soon as I walked into his room, he started to have a spasm. I took his hand and tried to talk him down. Alas, it had no effect. I broke down and cried. That’s when I heard his heart monitor flat line. I couldn’t stop crying and was saying ‘Oh God, oh god’ over and over. The nurses and doctors held him down and administered defibrillation. They brought him back thank god.




No one, especially not doctors and nurses, would ever defibrillate a heart that has flat-lined.  It is a myth of the television and movie industry.  It does nothing.  You cannot defibrillate a heart that is not fibrillating (beating randomly and erratically).

I knew then and there that somebody was making something up...  Only to have it confirmed in this thread.

Hrmph...  What a shame.


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## S'mon (Mar 13, 2009)

Treebore said:


> On a different note, I wonder why a person in a coma talking about the gods of faerun would set off alarm bells? A person in coma does talk, and they often talk about things that happened in their life, or things that make no sense to family members. So a gamer, talking about deities from a game he was prepping for while in a coma, is a very real possibility. So I am curious as to why that was suspicious to people.




It's not that implausible that a gamer girlfriend would hear her boyfriend muttering FR gods in his sleep, recognise them, and post that to her favourite RPG board.

Here, we have a supposedly non-gamer girlfriend, hears words she doesn't recognise, and feels it's so important that she recounts them - lots of them - _here_, onomatopoeiacally (sp?), where posters can recognise them.  It wasn't plausible at all.


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## Voadam (Mar 13, 2009)

Is there a list of his alts? I play in and run a number of pbp games here and want to know if anyone won't be showing up now.


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## Darkthorne (Mar 13, 2009)

For the people that had something similar have this situation really happen to them or someone they loved, you have my sympathies.
 To the mods, I applaud you on how you handled what was a difficult situation.
As for Rev, he has my pity. Maybe he'll learn something from this self destructive act. If he doesn't, it'll be a sad lonely place for him.


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## EATherrian (Mar 13, 2009)

Could someone explain what this HIVE that keeps being mentioned is?


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## Relique du Madde (Mar 13, 2009)

Voadam said:


> Is there a list of his alts? I play in and run a number of pbp games here and want to know if anyone won't be showing up now.




Page 4 or 5 in the current hive.


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## Relique du Madde (Mar 13, 2009)

EATherrian said:


> Could someone explain what this HIVE that keeps being mentioned is?




It's an off topic forum thread.  It's basically a long discussion about what ever pops into any of the poster's minds (while trying to stay within the Grandma rules, which we do a horrible job at doing). Keyword Hivemind or Hive.


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## vagabundo (Mar 13, 2009)

Relique du Madde said:


> It's an off topic forum thread. Keyword Hivemind or Hive.




I've read it a few times, but I'm not sure I grok it. It seems random.


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## Teflon Billy (Mar 13, 2009)

Herremann the Wise said:


> Again, just saying that just because I don't think punishment is the best option does not mean that I'm "letting it slide". Forgiving someone can be a hard thing to do too.




Ok, sorry to keep doing this to you, but do you want to elaborate on _that_?


If you don't want to see punishment, then how are you not "letting it Slide"?


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## vagabundo (Mar 13, 2009)

Teflon Billy said:


> Ok, sorry to keep doing this to you, but do you want to elaborate on _that_?
> 
> 
> If you don't want to see punishment, then how are you not "letting it Slide"?




'Letting it slide' implies weakness. Forgiveness is strength. You may not see a functional difference, but it is there.


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## Relique du Madde (Mar 13, 2009)

S'mon said:


> So, you've changed your mind now that he's hurt you personally?




Not just personal to me but also to Blackrat, Aeson, Ginnel, The Warlock, Hafrogman, Goldmoon, Galeros, Knightfall, Shabe, Lord Tirian, Phaezen, Megamania, and countless others who all thought we knew him..

In different HIVE threads he helped many of the HIVE posters get through personal problems.  He also claimed to have wanted support when he went through his own problems.  During the past he claimed to be distraught over his grandfather dying, hew claimed to have gotten into a serious car accident (his "sister", an alt he used told us about this), he went through familiar problems, problems with his own faith, and his going through bitter loneliness and nearly suicidal desires prior to meeting 'Mandy', and his jubilation for getting engaged to "Mandy".

All of those events are now very likely to have been lies he piled, for who knows what reason since late 2007.

I did giving him the benefit of the doubt last night.  I did want to have him get a second chance, but that doubt and desire ended this morning when I read through the posts which were put up inthe HIVE since I went to bed.


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## Relique du Madde (Mar 13, 2009)

vagabundo said:


> I've read it a few times, but I'm not sure I grok it. It seems random.




That it is.  It's an ultimate off topic off topic post.  Think of that one [META TROLL] post but more fluid and bewildering.


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## Wulf Ratbane (Mar 13, 2009)

vagabundo said:


> Forgiveness is strength.


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## S'mon (Mar 13, 2009)

vagabundo said:


> 'Letting it slide' implies weakness. Forgiveness is strength. You may not see a functional difference, but it is there.




Where forgiveness means not having to make the hard decisions, and is socially approbated, then yes it's the easy option.

Something that angers me is when people express forgiveness who have really no right to do so.  When they demand that others forgive also, or be bad people, I get very angry.  That has not happened here, but some of what was said earlier touched a nerve.


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## Lhorgrim (Mar 13, 2009)

S'mon said:


> It's not that implausible that a gamer girlfriend would hear her boyfriend muttering FR gods in his sleep, recognise them, and post that to her favourite RPG board.
> 
> Here, we have a supposedly non-gamer girlfriend, hears words she doesn't recognise, and feels it's so important that she recounts them - lots of them - _here_, onomatopoeiacally (sp?), where posters can recognise them.  It wasn't plausible at all.




The thing that tripped my sensor was the exactness of the pronunciations, and the fact that they happened to be listed alphabetically.  My experience has been that people generally repeat things like that in an "easiest first" list.


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## Bront (Mar 13, 2009)

Relique du Madde said:


> Not just personal to me but also to Blackrat, Aeson, Ginnel, The Warlock, Hafrogman, Goldmoon, Galeros, Knightfall, Shabe, Lord Tirian, Phaezen, and countless others who all thought we knew him.



Knightfall was one of his alts...

Edit: Oops, it was Knightfall1972.  My bad.


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## jdrakeh (Mar 13, 2009)

Bront said:


> Knightfall was one of his alts...




_Really?_


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## Imperialus (Mar 14, 2009)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> And it's not like it didn't happen before that community members got _really_ ill - and even died. I still remember the case of angelsboi - it was in a time where I was more a newbie, so I don't have such a deep connection to his case than others might have, but... it was a sad moment where the community showed its strength. And we wouldn't want a "joke" like this destroy that. Well, I wouldn't want to.




I can, to this day probably quote you the post when Angelsboi told us he was sick word for word...  

I felt the same way when Mandy posted about Rev...

Then it turns out it was a joke.

Not cool, not cool at all.


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## Knight Otu (Mar 14, 2009)

jdrakeh said:


> _Really?_




No, Bront is mixing him up with an actual alt, Knightwind[somenumber]. Which seemed the point of some of those alts.


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## Ginnel (Mar 14, 2009)

jdrakeh said:


> _Really?_



I'm pretty dam sure knightfall is cool, there was a knightfall1979 or something like that as well who was the fake, it seems this Rev guy made a lot of paradoies of regular Hivers.

I haven't been on long enough or he didn't know how to parody a ginnel  for future reference Rev alley would probably work


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## jdrakeh (Mar 14, 2009)

Knight Otu said:


> No, Bront is mixing him up with an actual alt, Knightwind[somenumber]. Which seemed the point of some of those alts.




I saw that on PC's list of known alts, though the _other_ Knightfall1972 account claimed to be an alt for the poster previously known as Knightfall. Bront might not be entirely off base. 

The original Knightfall and Reveille had long been the only two users on my 'friends' list here and, when the original Knightfall was banned, Knightfall1972 appeared several months later and asked if he could be added to my 'friends' list (making the aforementioned claim to identity). 

In retrospect, the infrequent conversations with both Reveille and Knightfall1972 were eerily similar. 

If they aren't the same person, well, that's just another _great_ example of how stuff like this really fouls an atmosphere of trust in a message board community. Pretending to be other people or creating other accounts to deliberately impersonate or parody other people, harming _their_ credibility in the process? 

Man, the more that comes out about this, the more apparent it is that the whole situation is just messed up.  I am totally dumbfounded and confused.


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## Relique du Madde (Mar 14, 2009)

Ginnel said:


> I'm pretty sure knightfall is cool, I think there was a knightfall1979 or something like that as well who was the fake, it seems this Rev guy made a lot of paradoies of regular Hivers.
> 
> I haven't been on long enough or he didn't know how to parody a ginnel  for future reference Rev alley would probably work




Or maybe he did parody you but no one figured which name it was. In hindsight mine were easy to figure, but some of the names/personalities he created on his list were head scratches.


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## Jack7 (Mar 14, 2009)

> On a different note, I wonder why a person in a coma talking about the gods of faerun would set off alarm bells? A person in coma does talk, and they often talk about things that happened in their life, or things that make no sense to family members. So a gamer, talking about deities from a game he was prepping for while in a coma, is a very real possibility. So I am curious as to why that was suspicious to people.




I can tell you my personal suspicions on the matter TB.

Of all the things that a person could mention clearly (or clearly enough to phoneticize them) while mumbling in their sleep, during a coma,and then have reported on a message board by a person who seems not to be a gamer, and then to present those "relevant to gaming clues" to a gaming community is far from coincidental, it is demonstrably suspicious.

Acceding to some of her stories they were soon to be married and she had children. 

Such things would relatively speaking be of far greater concern to the sub-conscious mind of most normal people than a D&D game or campaign.

I have to be honest about this entire affair myself. I enjoy gaming. I enjoying exploring the subject, but only in relationship to what it implies about real life. That is to me gaming, like anything, art, science, religion, etc, is of relative value only to "real life." And I use the term real life in the widest possible application.

If gaming in any way interfered with my family, my livelihood, my health, my friendships, my relationship with God or my fellow man, my scientific interest, my philanthropic pursuits, my inventing, my writings, my casework, my service to my country and community, even my other hobbies, then it would quickly become a casualty of far more important and relevant interests in real life. That being the case if I were in a coma it is hard to image that gaming would be the chief priority of my subconscious any more than it is the chief preoccupation of my waking consciousness or psychological state. I can certainly not imagine if my wife were to hear me mumbling things in a semi-conscious state then the only thing worth reporting would be gaming equivalent phonetic structures, nor can I imagine her saying, "Oh, I wonder if the fellas on the gaming boards he visits would understand what this means?" If I mumbled her name, that would be worth reporting, mumbled my kid's names, that would certainly be worth reporting, spoke about my work or some other important matter, okay... If I mumbled Tiamat or Aboleth or anything like that then that would be meaningless to her, and I doubt very seriously it would be at the tip of the spear in my mind either. Given a state of coma. I doubt she even knows of this board or any of my other internet pursuits, which, truth be told, the internet is really nothing more in most cases than a virtual world anyways, much like gaming itself. I strongly suspect that particular posting (the fake deities) was his way of "disclosing himself," of deliberately leaving clues for the suspicious as to what he was really up to. Much as a criminal or confidence man will often leave clues to see "if anybody else is as smart as I am." It is a sort of game many people who abuse the trust of others pull, it is not good enough merely to deceive, one must deceive to make a fool of and to prove that they are the superior and far more clever man. (Of course other things are possible as to motive and I am still suspicious of one possibility, but, we'll see in time. But the method of operation to me bespoke of a man who thinks he is smarter than most people around him.)

Well, he found out, and now that I am aware of his other confidence activities, and once I discovered this particular event to be a hoax I very much suspected there would be other older and more recent incidents of related behavior, I see he has a long history of leaving counterfeit and confidence clues. I suspect he has a history of "testing the confidence of others" as well.

It is just a suspicion, but the weight of evidence seems to confirm my suppositions and deductions. Along with the deductions of many others. No doubt this was the way he was discovered in this instance, maybe also in other instances.

My personal feeling is that this is the work of a man who spends far too much time living in a fantasy world and who spends far too little time concerned about the way in which his actions are perceived in the real world by real people.

Now that being said I don't want people to think I think gaming is a silly and time-wasting pursuit in and of itself, or that communities like this are by necessity that way either. That is not my point, and I wouldn't bother being here myself if it were. Like any activity it is of relative value to what it contributes to real life. Film, books, games, fiction itself, etc. may all have value for real life as well as "add-on" to the value of real life. But I try to never confuse fantasy or fiction with reality.

And to me this event, and the related events, demonstrate the actions of a man who treats the concerns of others as basically unreal and not really worthy of "real consideration." It seems to me the actions of a man who confuses fantasy with reality, and characters with Character.

That is not necessarily a damning thing in and of itself, but it should be a very real and fair warning to the man about where he is placing his priorities and what kind of constructive, or destructive use, he is making of his "real time."

If he is still able to read these boards, then this is my advice, take it for what it is worth. Get real interests in real life, concentrate your time and energies constructively there, assume that you should treat others in the same way you wish to be treated and just assume everyone else is at least as smart as you are, if not smarter actually (most are smart enough not to pull this kinda thing, aren't they? - if you're really honest about it), and then come back to things like gaming when you understand your best priorities. And the best priorities of others who despite your seeming underlying assumptions probably do have at least as important a set of things to do in real life as to spend their time and energy trying to really assist you when your only real interest is to falsely deceive them.

One last thing I'd like to say.
Even the wisest man or woman can be deceived on occasion.

All of those taken in at any point by the hoax, and until evidence became more plain I was at first, don't feel very bad. Compare your wisdom in being concerned enough to want to help with his level of wisdom in being concerned with wanting to test your willingness to help in a false and self-serving manner. (When he could have been using that energy for some realistically beneficial purpose.)

Then ask yourself who was really duped, and to what end?

He found out something about himself, and he found out something about many of you.
And you found out something about him, and you also found out something about yourself.

If I were keeping score then I'd say many of you rolled a natural 20.
As for him, he gets to keep what he earned.

Now I'm gonna go have some pizza and a beer and toast some of you ladies and gentlemen, and the way you acted.
Gives me hope for my nation, and hope for the world.

Apparently there's a lot more of you out there on the internet than I had supposed. Evening all.


----------



## guivre (Mar 14, 2009)

Treebore said:


> Now being made aware of what he was doing in the HIVE I am now OK with permanently banning him. I am far less interested in forgiving him as well, and definitely have no interest in ever visiting him in Phoenix and participating in any games with him. Trust will never happen.
> 
> 
> On a different note, I wonder why a person in a coma talking about the gods of faerun would set off alarm bells? A person in coma does talk, and they often talk about things that happened in their life, or things that make no sense to family members. So a gamer, talking about deities from a game he was prepping for while in a coma, is a very real possibility. So I am curious as to why that was suspicious to people.




Is it a possibility yes, is it likely, no. The posts as a whole read like badly written fiction. It was like someone was trying to roleplay the events.

Personally my  meter was up already and that was the final straw. It was too convenient. The alphabetical order, the phonetic spelling, the line about "the experts say he'll wake up when he's done talking to them".... it had gone beyond believability previously, that post pushed it over the edge.


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## Mephistopheles (Mar 14, 2009)

I wish the hoaxer the best in dealing with whatever situation it was that has led to him enacting what it now turns out was a lengthy and elaborate series of hoaxes.

I am impressed by the administrators and moderators for their response to this situation. I've been in their shoes in another community when a similar situation was uncovered and I can empathise with what they're going through. I fully agree with the course of action they've taken.

Unfortunately sometimes you have to take the bad with the good and this is one of those times; I do believe that the good in this community far outweighs the bad.


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## Knight Otu (Mar 14, 2009)

jdrakeh said:


> I saw that on PC's list of known alts, though the _other_ Knightfall1972 account claimed to be an alt for the poster previously known as Knightfall. Bront might not be entirely offbase.



Well, I would hope he is wrong. This affair is big enough already.  The Knightfall1972 to Knightfall change was a mostly normal (only oddity being that there already was a Knightfall who had never logged in), and he has far too many posts and joined much earlier than the confirmed alts for me to believe he is another alt.



jdrakeh said:


> If they aren't the same person, well, that's just another _great_ example of how stuff like this really fouls an atmosphere of trust in a message board community. Pretending to be other people or creating other accounts to deliberately impersonate or parody other people, harming _their_ credibility in the process?
> 
> Man, this whole thing is just messed up.




Agreed.


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## Knightfall (Mar 14, 2009)

Bront said:


> Knightfall was one of his alts...



I'm not an alt.


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## Knightfall (Mar 14, 2009)

Ginnel said:


> I'm pretty dam sure knightfall is cool, there was a knightfall1979 or something like that as well who was the fake, it seems this Rev guy made a lot of paradoies of regular Hivers.
> 
> I haven't been on long enough or he didn't know how to parody a ginnel  for future reference Rev alley would probably work



I'm cool.  Yay!

In all seriousness...

My username used to be "Knightfall1972" but I had the moderators change it to just be "Knightfall." (BTW, my username on CM is "Darkstar," which also used to be "Knightfall1972.")


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## jdrakeh (Mar 14, 2009)

Knightfall said:


> I'm not an alt.




Good to know!


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## Knightfall (Mar 14, 2009)

jdrakeh said:


> I saw that on PC's list of known alts, though the _other_ Knightfall1972 account claimed to be an alt for the poster previously known as Knightfall. Bront might not be entirely off base.
> 
> The original Knightfall and Reveille had long been the only two users on my 'friends' list here and, when the original Knightfall was banned, Knightfall1972 appeared several months later and asked if he could be added to my 'friends' list (making the aforementioned claim to identity).
> 
> ...



You might be thinking of "Nightfall" without a k? He was banned but I don't know why. I never claimed to be him.

I was Knightfall1972 for a long time but a month or so ago I had my username changed. It was a simplification. Then in the Hive, Rev created Knightwind1972. I thought it might have been someone playing a trick on me so I was suspicous of that one.

I am now Knightfall and will remain so for as long as there is an EN World. (BTW, 1972 referred to my birth year.)


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## Knightfall (Mar 14, 2009)

jdrakeh said:


> Good to know!



And, if you ever doubt my existance again, just ask Darrin Drader if I'm real or not. 

Then again... he might deny my existance just to be funny.


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## jdrakeh (Mar 14, 2009)

Knightfall said:


> You might be thinking of "Nightfall" without a k?




Possibly. I do see that he's on my 'friends' list, too (I don't update/check it too often). It might have been the Knightwind1972 alt that I had a run-in with, as well (i.e., it may have been that alt claiming to be Nightfall). One thing is clear. There are too many of you Knight-this and Knight-that guys floating around


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## Knightfall (Mar 14, 2009)

jdrakeh said:


> Possibly. I do see that he's on my 'friends' list, too (I don't update/check it too often). It might have been the Knightwind1972 alt that I had a run-in with, as well (i.e., it may have been that alt claiming to be Nightfall). One thing is clear. There are too many of you Knight-this and Knight-that guys floating around



Heh. Funny. 

[EDIT]
Just remember that this is me: Robert Blezard


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## Relique du Madde (Mar 14, 2009)

jdrakeh said:


> (i.e., it may have been that alt claiming to be Nightfall).




Well.... Nightfall WAS banned from ENWorld for obsessing over post count and posting way too much (at least once in EVERY thread) and posting responses to the moderator responses.


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## Teflon Billy (Mar 14, 2009)

vagabundo said:


> 'Letting it slide' implies weakness. Forgiveness is strength.




Is War Peace? And is Freedom Slavery? (1984) 



> You may not see a functional difference, but it is there.




Then could you explain the _functional_ difference, because you are correct...I don't see it.


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## Jack7 (Mar 14, 2009)

> Then could you explain the functional difference, because (if?) you are correct...I don't see it.




It's not up to me to answer for anyone else, but to me forgiveness shows strength of character when the other person demonstrates two basic principles: repentance, and reform.

They (the offender) are sincerely sorry, they repent (go in the opposite direction), and they reform their behavior so as not to make the same mistake or intentionally do the same wrong again.

If they demonstrate sincerity of repentance and reform, then that shows they are making the effort to learn from their errors and to change their character for the better.

In that case then the onus is upon me to try and demonstrate the patience and forgiveness necessary to allow them to continue to improve their character rather than to perpetually condemn them for their previous errors, or sins, or misdeeds.

But that process is a two way street. The onus is upon me is to forgive the sincere repentant. The onus is upon them to seek to prove that they are indeed sincere by demonstrating a different type or class of behavior.

When both parties meet their obligations then good progress can be made at beneficial and necessary reform.

_*When neither meets their obligations it is impossible to reform.*_

If only one meets his or her obligations then it is extremely difficult to reform. Because if the aggrieved party will not forgive the other then it makes it difficult for the offender to ever prove himself worthy, even if he has reformed. No proof will be ever be acknowledged as good enough.

But if the offender only seems to reform or is given forgiveness too easily and without real effort then that only encourages him in his previous misbehavior.

And of course both parties must often allow enough time to pass to test their new condition.

That's my view.
Forgiveness requires obligations on the part of everyone involved.

And demonstrations of sincerity and change.


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## Lanefan (Mar 14, 2009)

Knightfall said:


> I'm not an alt.



Which still leaves ctrl and del as possibilities... 

Lan-"someone had to say it"-efan


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## Sepulchrave II (Mar 14, 2009)

> Then could you explain the functional difference, because you are correct...I don't see it.




I guess - for me, and I can't speak for anyone else either - 'letting it slide' indicates a certain degree of *denial* of the offense. Not integrating; repressing; sublimating - whatever.

Forgiveness - for me, again - is consciously embracing/admitting to the pain, allowing it to run its course, shape perception, and then choosing to move on from that point *as an act of will*. 

Forgiveness is very hard, and I'm very bad at it. It takes me a long time.


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## Rathan (Mar 14, 2009)

To be honest all it doesn't matter who he is... was. or ever will be... and the pointing of fingers.... doesn't need to be happening either.. that just ASKING for a fight that doesn't need to happen because of someone so OBVIOUSLY looking for attention... weather he can see it or not.. you're just giving him what he wants.... fame on this site... he's gone.. and can't do this to ANYONE ELSE here and that's my friends is the shining light in this situation.. and hopefully no one will be dim-whitted enough to try this again


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## CleverNickName (Mar 14, 2009)

The more I read on this, the worse I feel.  _Twenty-five_ alternate accounts for the same person??!  *TWENTY-FIVE??!*

Is there a way to prevent/deter this in the future?  Not that I have any ideas or suggestions...from what I've seen, this place is one of the best-moderated discussion forums around.  I am certain that the staff and moderators of ENWorld are doing everything they can to protect the site from predators like this.

I don't want to be made to feel stupid because (a) I make friends, and then (b) trust them to be honest.  There has to be a better way than "distrust everyone and everything here."

Thoughts?


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## merelycompetent (Mar 14, 2009)

CleverNickName said:


> I don't want to be made to feel stupid because (a) I make friends, and then (b) trust them to be honest.  There has to be a better way than "distrust everyone and everything here."
> 
> Thoughts?




Trust, but Verify. Take the safer route. Set your own limits - and obey them.

If, on a non-health-related site, someone starts posting health-related issues, check on the accuracy of what they're reporting from the doctors. The internet + Google provides the greatest research library ever available to the human race. In this case, the symptoms and doctor/nurse actions reported did not match well with a real coma symptoms and treatment. If in doubt, assume the person really does need help. For example, I don't want to have to live with myself if I read about someone's depression tonight, NOT report it to the moderators/authorities, and read about their suicide (or worse) on CNN the next morning. This means that I will be fooled on occasion. But it's my personal limit - a standard that I hold myself to.

If someone lies about one part of their life, they're probably lying about other parts also. Life's too short to waste on liars - you spend more energy trying to figure out what the truth is than with living. I'm getting on in mileage (and years, but it's the mileage that counts), so I do not suffer liars at all.

Once again, the ENWorld moderators, and no small number of posters, have impressed me. I hope I get to meet some of you people in person, someday.


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## Nellisir (Mar 14, 2009)

Huh.

Bad form, Rev.

Hope you're OK.


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## Woas (Mar 14, 2009)

That would actually be real great if that happened. It would really give this... "situation" some humor and completely turn it into something, positive-ish.



Mark said:


> Perhaps in the future, people will link to this thread and say that someone has been RevRolled.


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## Umbran (Mar 14, 2009)

CleverNickName said:


> Thoughts?




I can assure you, the admin and moderating staff will be having some discussions about this, and we'll review our policies and consider viable technological aids to help prevent this sort of thing happening in the future. 

We are not, however, going to do that as a knee-jerk reaction.  We are not going to take action out of fear or anger or frustration.  We're going to take our time about it, and make sure that we are considering consequences carefully.


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## Bront (Mar 14, 2009)

Knightfall said:


> I'm not an alt.



Sorry, had you mixed up with another on the list.

Nightfall was banned from CM for being a human spambot.  I'd guess he got banned here for the same reason.


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## Wik (Mar 14, 2009)

I remember when NF got banned - I don't know the exact reason, but I'd guess it was for the reason everyone said.  There was some sort of "ask Wotc questions on 4e" thread, or something, and Nightfall LITERALLY made every second post.  And it was like "Good point", or "Yeah, I agree".  

Made the whole thing very difficult to read.  And I remember times when I'd load ENWorld only to see EVERY thread having last been commented on by him.  Once, when I was bored and a little spiteful, I tried to post over him, but I couldn't win.  He'd just make quick one sentence posts, and I realized it was a pointless game.  He was trying to "win" forum posting, or something.

***

On the subject of Rev's alts... yikes.  That's definitely a little weird.  I think I may have an alt here, a mispelling of my current screen name.  Beyond that... I think I'm alright.

That being said, I don't think getting rid of multiple accounts is going to stop this sort of behaviour, for a couple of reasons.  For one, it makes multiple posters using the same computer impossible (and what if, in a real situation, "rev's Mandy" wanted to make an announcement?).  Second, I know there are probably a few play-by-posters who use their character's name as their screenname.  

And third, sometimes it's a bit fun.  on another message board, I remember making alts of some of my online friends and teasing them in a fun way.  Make quotes that were gently teasing of their personalities, and that sort of thing.  It can be a fun way to liven up a forumboard.

Besides, the real liars/con-artists will always find a way to keep ahead of the technology.


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## Zelligars Apprentice (Mar 14, 2009)

Wow.

A lot of what I am thinking about this has already been posted.  I won't repeat that; I'll just say that this guy is a real piece of work.  I was one of the ones duped, and feel really stupid now.  Of course, this isn't the first time I have fallen for something like this.  Maybe I am just naturally gullible.

In light of this whole mess, I have a humble suggestion for the admins, which, on second thought, I will post in a forked thread.


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## Jack99 (Mar 14, 2009)

Umbran said:


> I can assure you, the admin and moderating staff will be having some discussions about this, and we'll review our policies and consider viable technological aids to help prevent this sort of thing happening in the future.
> 
> We are not, however, going to do that as a knee-jerk reaction.  We are not going to take action out of fear or anger or frustration.  We're going to take our time about it, and make sure that we are considering consequences carefully.




Sounds like you guys got us covered well. Thanks.


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## broghammerj (Mar 14, 2009)

Treebore said:


> On a different note, I wonder why a person in a coma talking about the gods of faerun would set off alarm bells? A person in coma does talk, and they often talk about things that happened in their life, or things that make no sense to family members. So a gamer, talking about deities from a game he was prepping for while in a coma, is a very real possibility. So I am curious as to why that was suspicious to people.




I was pretty suspicious to start with....I am a medical doctor.  In my limited experience people don't slip off into comas without some traumatic brain injury, serious infectious illness, or dramatic seizure activity.  Most of these are diagnosed with CT/MRI, lumbar puncture (spinal tap), and EEG (recording brainwaves).  We don't get things from episodes of "House" where we are totally mystified.

That being said, I am a urologist not a neurologist so I didn't really want to call a lay person out on the internet.  Listening to patients tell me about their own care is interesting for a couple of reasons.  Patients only get about half of it right.  I have a decent idea of what is usually done for the standard of care.  I also have the advantage of records in front of me.  People understanding what is going on with their family is even worse.  The story of Mandy seeing Rev flatline and being resuscitated is plausible as alarms typically sound prior to someone going asystolic.  Also meds may have brought him back into a shockable rythym.....altough we don't usually let people hang around to watch a code.

Unless you're Monte Cooke slipping into a coma while you're in the middle of writing 3rd ed rules I think spouting off RPG material is a little far fetched.

My personal thoughts:
1. Medicine and message boards don't mix.
2. (edited) To me this is an online forum for discussion of DnD and we shouldn't lose sight of that.  (edited for something I can't communicate well online therefore elected to erase so as to not offend)
3. The only outpouring of sympathy I have ever chosen to share on the board was for the passing of EGG which seemed an appropriate venue as his family posted here.
4. I find it oddly relevant given the circumstances that my user name is my real name.  Somehow it adds credibility.  Perhaps I won't change it to my usual username after all.


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## CleverNickName (Mar 14, 2009)

Umbran said:


> I can assure you, the admin and moderating staff will be having some discussions about this, and we'll review our policies and consider viable technological aids to help prevent this sort of thing happening in the future.
> 
> We are not, however, going to do that as a knee-jerk reaction.  We are not going to take action out of fear or anger or frustration.  We're going to take our time about it, and make sure that we are considering consequences carefully.



Thanks for putting my mind at ease, Umbran.

I re-read my earlier post, and I think it might have sounded a little off-putting.  So just to be clear: I wasn't suggesting that the admins and moderators weren't doing enough to stop or prevent this kind of behavior.  I've been very impressed with the way this delicate and unfortunate situation has been (and continues to be) handled.


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## S'mon (Mar 14, 2009)

This has certainly demonstrated again the high standard of moderating on ENW.  It kinda spoils me - when on rpgnet I see the dribble that claims to be moderating there and I can't believe my eyes.


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## broghammerj (Mar 14, 2009)

CleverNickName said:


> Thanks for putting my mind at ease, Umbran.
> 
> I re-read my earlier post, and I think it might have sounded a little off-putting.  So just to be clear: I wasn't suggesting that the admins and moderators weren't doing enough to stop or prevent this kind of behavior.  I've been very impressed with the way this delicate and unfortunate situation has been (and continues to be) handled.




The mods have done an outstanding job in this difficult time.  This thread allows a little healing process for the community which is appreciated.

I would pose this question to the mods.  Please realize I am not trying to flame and this is not a disagreement with how things were handled.  This is more meant as a launching point for discussion which may help to shape Enworld in the future.  If you feel what I write is inappropriate then please feel free to erase it.

What if someone didn't have the tact that Catclaw had about calling the post a hoax?  What if someone had just come out and simply said, "I think this thread is a hoax."  Given the subject of the original post (a well know/well liked Enworld member) with health problems and updates posted by family members, would you have responded with some sort of post erasing or potential ban?  I would think you would almost have had to.

I think many people felt that way but for the sake of civility *correctly* chose to say nothing.  If the person who opted to post had been reprimanded how would that look in the face of the current outcome?

The reason I pose these questions is that Enworld is two things.  1st a forum to for discussion of RPGs, most specifically DnD.  The second is that it is a community.  Your milage on the term community can vary.  For some it is a social outlet.  For me personally it is not.  I realize many people have gamed together, met at Gencon or other regional gamedays, etc. which adds to the community aspect of things.  I hang out here to discuss DnD with like minded people.

My question is this.  Does a post on Mandy's Rev take away from the focus of what this board is....a DnD board?  Should personal discussions such as this be avoided?  Could discussions of these sorts of things between close members in this community be better served through personal messaging.  The board could facilitate this and still keep a community feel as a result without going "public" with things of this nature.

Just something to think about as this shapes the future of things here.


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## RSKennan (Mar 14, 2009)

I haven't been around much, but I remember him under his old name. Coming here today to find the forums running at a decent speed again and finding this drama is surprising. This might have been an attempt at...something, but ultimately it's pretty low. I remember AngelsBoi. I remember others on other fora who have died. And of course, EGG. 

There are real people behind these screen names, and sometimes they die. To try to capitalize (to whatever end) on the real feelings some of us have at the tribulations of other forum members is heartless at best. 

I'm glad I didn't see this before the veil came down. To be honest, reading the original thread now, it's not very plausible, but hindsight is 20/20, and I honestly can't say how I might have reacted, and if I believed the first couple of posts, how much more I might be willing to rationalize. But this isn't about me at all. I just felt like I had to post because I'm hoping that no no one tries this again here, and that others don't become cynical over this. The community aspect of this site, even though I haven't been as much a part of it as I might have been, is its strength. People here genuinely care about each other, and there aren't many places like that on the internet if you're not in a clique. EN World has always been a big village. I hope it stays that way.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Mar 14, 2009)

I think tue simplest ans least intrusive was to do it would be to ask a mod or report the post.

Enworld Is about gaming foremost, but it is also a community, and that creates social relationships, even if only between our Internet personas. That is inevitable. Some relationships are closer than others. Sometimes , you come for the Dm advice but stay for the people.

​


broghammerj said:


> The mods have done an outstanding job in this difficult time.  This thread allows a little healing process for the community which is appreciated.
> 
> I would pose this question to the mods.  Please realize I am not trying to flame and this is not a disagreement with how things were handled.  This is more meant as a launching point for discussion which may help to shape Enworld in the future.  If you feel what I write is inappropriate then please feel free to erase it.
> 
> ...


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## Maggan (Mar 14, 2009)

broghammerj said:


> Should personal discussions such as this be avoided?  Could discussions of these sorts of things between close members in this community be better served through personal messaging.  The board could facilitate this and still keep a community feel as a result without going "public" with things of this nature.




I think you have a very good point. All through the "incident" I was thinking that it would be better for "Mandy" to turn to people close to her IRL, instead of pouring her heart out to total strangers on the Internet.

/M


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## Asmo (Mar 14, 2009)

I really don´t know what to say - I´ve been posting/lurking since Eric N kicked this movement into action with his site back in the day, but this is easily the most disturbing thing during all these years.
I just hope that everybody will recover and find joy again.
Happy posting, all of you.

Asmo


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## JRRNeiklot (Mar 14, 2009)

reveal said:


> That's taking it a bit far. Understandable since emotions are flying high now. But look at it this way; over on CM, a user named Del faked his own death. The community banded together and an outpouring of sympathy came forth. When it was learned that it was an "April Fools" joke, he was quickly and vehemently chastised. He wasn't banned but he, smartly, never came back. The community had spoken and he paid heed.
> 
> His behavior didn't cause the rest of us to become more cynical and scoff others when they had problems, saying things like "this is just Del all over again." No, we kept going and treated everyone the same. In fact, we probably became a bit closer because we all had more in common; our sympathy for Del at first and then our loathing of him. It also allowed folks to see other member's true colors; it's amazing how much of a person's true nature can be gleaned by how they treat others in a moment of crisis.
> 
> I think folks here should wait at least a week or more to let their emotions run their course before deciding on a more "permanent" punishment for Rev.




I concur.  Just because little Johnny cries wolf, and there is no wolf, does not mean I won't come running when Sally does.


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## JRRNeiklot (Mar 14, 2009)

Henry said:


> The part that ticks me off the most is that when something like this happens, it takes the trust that a community has in one or more of its members who have met each other in person, gamed with them, fellowshipped with them, and smashes it.
> 
> It makes any future discussions of someone's health or well-being suspect, and makes people distrustful of REAL situations like that in the future. How would someone like Angelsboi's death, or Chairman Kaga's, be received if you had a dozen people yelling "TROLL!" to them or friends of theirs who posted about their circumstances? Diaglo, Joe Carriker, and others knew Angelsboi personally, and I can only hope when he passed no one was tempted to yell " It's FAKE!" when it happened because of events like this recent one.
> 
> That's the real loss to me in a situation like this. I'll still continue to care, and offer help or kind words where I can, but it just adds one more barrier of distrust to a community that I otherwise consider to be a pretty friendly group of people.




Again, you can't (or at least should not) doubt other people because one person wronged you.  I fell for the "joke."  But if someone else posted something similar, I'd take it as truth until evidence showed otherwise.  When one person blows your trust, you stop trusting THEM.  Not all of humanity.


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## Quartz (Mar 14, 2009)

I've not read the whole thread, but sadly I've seen this before on other boards. One board I frequent has what seems a good policy: such threads are locked and disappeared until they can be verified. Then they're opened up for public comment.


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## WhatGravitas (Mar 14, 2009)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Enworld Is about gaming foremost, but it is also a community, and that creates social relationships, even if only between our Internet personas. That is inevitable. Some relationships are closer than others. Sometimes , you come for the Dm advice but stay for the people.



Furthermore, Fru/Rev was (AFAIK) seen/met on GenCon and also well-liked by the core community (i.e. the people who are with ENWorld since the start - or even longer - and eventually became moderators and so on). 

In a way, he way definitively in the nimbus of the core members.

Since the core community shapes the tone of the forum, it's pretty natural that even people coming for D&D pick up these vibes (and the disappointment) - after all, we humans are social beings, even if text is a poor communication medium, *something* can come across.

Cheers, LT.


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## JRRNeiklot (Mar 14, 2009)

Treebore said:


> Now being made aware of what he was doing in the HIVE I am now OK with permanently banning him.




I don't see how that is even relevant to banning him here.  Banning someone because of their behavior elsewhere seems a bit too Big Brotherish to me.  I'm not saying he didn't deserve banning, but ban him for what he did here, not elsewhere.


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## WhatGravitas (Mar 14, 2009)

JRRNeiklot said:


> I don't see how that is even relevant to banning him here.  Banning someone because of their behavior elsewhere seems a bit too Big Brotherish to me.  I'm not saying he didn't deserve banning, but ban him for what he did here, not elsewhere.



The hive is part of ENWorld (in the off-topic forum), so it's not for "elsewhere".

Cheers, LT.


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## JRRNeiklot (Mar 14, 2009)

Lord Tirian said:


> The hive is part of ENWorld (in the off-topic forum), so it's not for "elsewhere".
> 
> Cheers, LT.




I stand corrected.  I wasn't aware of that, as I pretty much only visit this forum.  Ignore my drivel above.


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## Blastin (Mar 14, 2009)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> I think tue simplest ans least intrusive was to do it would be to ask a mod or report the post.
> 
> ​




 Well...I don't know if anyone else did, but asking a mod is exactly what I did. I'm in medicine as well ( a PA for 17yrs and working in-patient/ICU for the past year) and the posts set off all kinds of alarm bells at first, more when "she" said about him going flatline and the Defib. When the Gods post was placed is when I sent a message to the mods. I didn't want to do like one of the above posters said and just say "this is a hoax" in the thread.
  I've been on boards where this has happened before so I'm kinda cynical, but still try and give people the benefit of the doubt. I think that asking the mods to confirm or investigate suspicious posts is the way to go.


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## broghammerj (Mar 14, 2009)

Blastin said:


> I've been on boards where this has happened before so I'm kinda cynical, but still try and give people the benefit of the doubt. I think that asking the mods to confirm or investigate suspicious posts is the way to go.




Asking the mods is always a good answer, but if I were a mod I don't know if I really would want to be saddled with the challenge of investigating this.  That's why I wonder if these thing should be kept out of the public domain and better left to the personal messaging side of things.


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## Umbran (Mar 14, 2009)

CleverNickName said:


> Thanks for putting my mind at ease, Umbran.
> 
> I re-read my earlier post, and I think it might have sounded a little off-putting.




I was not at all off-put.  You simply made it clear that perhaps a word on how we are going to proceed was in order.


----------



## Blastin (Mar 14, 2009)

broghammerj said:


> Asking the mods is always a good answer, but if I were a mod I don't know if I really would want to be saddled with the challenge of investigating this.  That's why I wonder if these thing should be kept out of the public domain and better left to the personal messaging side of things.




  I agree in principal, but looking at human nature I don't think it will happen. Could the mods make a rule of no personal info type threads? Sure they could. I just think that it would make this community seem sterile. 
  Part of the community aspect of these types of boards is that our real lives, personalities and flaws tend to bleed over in the posts. Because we start to feel like we know some of the people here on a personal level it's inevitable that we would feel like sharing things outside of the board's main topic. And I think that people do enjoy feeling like they are a bit more involved with other posters than just debating their opinion on what a Paladin's code means


----------



## Umbran (Mar 14, 2009)

broghammerj said:


> What if someone didn't have the tact that Catclaw had about calling the post a hoax?  What if someone had just come out and simply said, "I think this thread is a hoax."  Given the subject of the original post (a well know/well liked Enworld member) with health problems and updates posted by family members, would you have responded with some sort of post erasing or potential ban?  I would think you would almost have had to.




It is difficult to respond to hypotheticals, of course, but I'll take a stab at it...

Assuming a lack of tact... it would be quite probable that the post would get edited.  It would need a supreme lack of tact - to the point of clear hostility, to get a ban for it. 



> I think many people felt that way but for the sake of civility *correctly* chose to say nothing.  If the person who opted to post had been reprimanded how would that look in the face of the current outcome?




As others have noted - if someone has something beyond an unsupportable "gut feeling", the really correct thing to do would have been to report the post and/or e-mail the mods with their thoughts on the subject.  

As for the person who would have been reprimanded - I have to note that being right is not generally an excuse for being rude.  We'd apologize for the part we got wrong, certainly.  



> My question is this.  Does a post on Mandy's Rev take away from the focus of what this board is....a DnD board?  Should personal discussions such as this be avoided?




My personal inclination is to say "No" on both counts.  When things go wrong, it's quite distressing.  But over the history of the place, the good done has far outweighed the bad.  But we'll be considering policies, so we'll see.


----------



## Glyfair (Mar 14, 2009)

Piratecat said:


> Finally... well, crap. This is one of the most frustrating and disappointing days I've had as a moderator over the past nine years. On behalf of our entire community, I'm sorry.



I was a moderator at another gaming site (MKRealms) when there was a similar that that an occasional poster had passed away and left a wife and kids.  The owners, being who they were, set up a donation site and called to contact his wife about arrangements.  Of course, the person who "passed away" answered the phone.

I thought about that when I saw this and thought this might have been something like that.  However, pointing out such a thing is just quite insensitive and really didn't matter unless people started taking up collections or the like.

I still recommend anyone take comments like this with a small dose of skepticism.  More often than not such posts are true and heartfelt.  However, a noticable part of them time they are like this.


----------



## billd91 (Mar 14, 2009)

Maggan said:


> I think you have a very good point. All through the "incident" I was thinking that it would be better for "Mandy" to turn to people close to her IRL, instead of pouring her heart out to total strangers on the Internet.
> 
> /M




I know too many people in blogger/message board subcultures who do just this, unfortunately. For some people, it's a lot easier to turn to a wider net of relatively anonymous people than to turn to a closer network of real people.


----------



## doctorhook (Mar 14, 2009)

I noticed that there was a new thread about Reveille, and that the original had been locked, and that there had been a ton of activity in the past couple days. To be totally honest, given the what I had read here a week ago, I basically figured that this guy had died, and that folks were offering their condolences. (That seems like a natural thing to think might have happened here, right?) Instead, the truth is much sillier than I could have imagined.

So, can I ask someone who the heck this "Reveille" guy is, anyway? After all this, I'm pretty curious about the full story. Here's what I've gathered, so please correct me if I'm wrong:


He's a mega-regular here at ENWorld, so obviously he likes D&D;
He's got Down syndrome, and he lived at home with his parents because (now obviously) he wasn't emotionally stable enough to be on his own;
He was an articulate and very nice guy to anyone who ever talked to him, and he had a lot of close friends here whom he hurt with this scam;
He's pulled shenanigans similar to this before, on a smaller scale;
He has used numerous alts to manipulate social situations here;
He invented his real-world life with someone named Mandy.
Also, I'm curious how exactly we figured out that it was fake, for certain. Hindsight speculations about shaky medical practices and bizarre coma-talk aside, what actually broke the story, and who figured it out?

Finally, please forgive me if it's too soon for this. I'll remove it myself if it's inappropriate. I know a lot of people are very frustrated and hurt.


----------



## S'mon (Mar 14, 2009)

doctorhook said:


> He's got Down syndrome




That seems very unlikely.


----------



## Heckler (Mar 14, 2009)

doctorhook said:


> He's got Down syndrome, and he lived at home with his parents because (now obviously) he wasn't emotionally stable enough to be on his own;



 Actually, he lived at home with his mother, as his father and grandfather died within a week of each other a couple of years ago.

Allegedly.

And its sad that his current betrayal is making me doubt such serious things he told us years ago.

But I'm still sorting out how I feel about this.  I cried for the guy.  I have bad health myself, and this was really tearing me up.  Now...I dunno...

Kudos to PC and the mods, though.  This is a very bizarre situation that they've been handling very well.


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## Umbran (Mar 14, 2009)

doctorhook said:


> He's got Down syndrome, and he lived at home with his parents because (now obviously) he wasn't emotionally stable enough to be on his own;




His detailed private medical information is not for discussion here.  



> He invented his real-world life with someone named Mandy.




We can neither confirm nor deny her existence.  Nor, ultimately, is his love life our business.



> Also, I'm curious how exactly we figured out that it was fake, for certain. Hindsight speculations about shaky medical practices and bizarre coma-talk aside, what actually broke the story, and who figured it out?




We have said before, and I reiterate, that though we understand the curiosity, the details of the discovery will not be discussed by the staff.

Those interested in his details may communicate with him directly.


----------



## Wik (Mar 14, 2009)

Umbran said:


> His detailed private medical information is not for discussion here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Well, you're no fun.  

***

that being said, I totally agree with you.  One thing I will say, regarding Fru's grandparents... it is statistically more likely for long-term couples to die very close to one another.  They're older, and the death and stress puts a strain on the heart, or something like that.  So, I'll believe it - it doesn't hurt me not to.


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## doctorhook (Mar 14, 2009)

Umbran said:


> His detailed private medical information is not for discussion here.
> 
> We can neither confirm nor deny her existence.  Nor, ultimately, is his love life our business.
> 
> ...



Well, I suppose that's pretty unequivocal. To put it in other words, "Respectfully, none of your business, Doc." I'm still curious, but can understand that his private life isn't open for discussion, regardless of circumstances.

This has been hella weird.


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## Filcher (Mar 15, 2009)

Lame. 

The one commodity we have to exchange is trust. Having abused that, it seems only appropriate that one loses access to the community.

The sad part is that, in his gambit for attention, Rev lost the respect/camaraderie he had earned from engaging with the rest of us. 

Stupid waste of our time, and his.


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## EATherrian (Mar 15, 2009)

Relique du Madde said:


> It's an off topic forum thread.  It's basically a long discussion about what ever pops into any of the poster's minds (while trying to stay within the Grandma rules, which we do a horrible job at doing). Keyword Hivemind or Hive.




Ah, thanks for the information.  I was lost there for a bit.


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## Relique du Madde (Mar 15, 2009)

EATherrian said:


> Ah, thanks for the information.  I was lost there for a bit.




Don't mention it.   Hell I often get lost there (especially when the thread jumps 100+ posts in the span on 3 hours).


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## Roman (Mar 15, 2009)

Umbran said:


> Yes, we did.  However, we will not engage in a "telephone game" here, especially when we clearly disagree on whether it was appropriate.




I only got to this point of the thread as of now, so perhaps this has been answered already, but let me just ask this: 

I understand that you won't engage in a 'telephone game', but I am actually rather worried about Reveille. Doing something like this may indicate a desperate cry for attention and perhaps even end in suicide if the attention is not received or if the hoax is exposed. Please, please can you at least indicate that this is not the case in this situation to put my mind at ease? Thank you for your understanding.


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## Relique du Madde (Mar 15, 2009)

Roman said:


> I only got to this point of the thread as of now, so perhaps this has been answered already, but let me just ask this:
> 
> I understand that you won't engage in a 'telephone game', but I am actually rather worried about Reveille. Doing something like this may indicate a desperate cry for attention and perhaps even end in suicide if the attention is not received or if the hoax is exposed. Please, please can you at least indicate that this is not the case in this situation to put my mind at ease? Thank you for your understanding.




Now that I'm out of those blasted "stages of Grief", I was actually going to try to contact him myself.  Especially since this after noon I mentally went over all the posts in the Hive threads and realized that I missed a lot of warning signs and little bits of info that I should have approached but decided not to.


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## Roman (Mar 15, 2009)

Umbran said:


> I can assure you, the admin and moderating staff will be having some discussions about this, and we'll review our policies and consider viable technological aids to help prevent this sort of thing happening in the future.
> 
> We are not, however, going to do that as a knee-jerk reaction.  We are not going to take action out of fear or anger or frustration.  We're going to take our time about it, and make sure that we are considering consequences carefully.




I am not sure whether my opinion on this makes any difference or not, but I would strongly urge you to do nothing about this. Sure, find his IP and ban it permanently, but no new policy can realistically protect the community. The only thing you can achieve is to inconvenience normal posters, but whoever is so dedicated to deception will still be able to deceive. Even if you do something drastic like one account per IP (the alts can just be created in an internet cafe) - basically new restrictions will only inconvenience legitimate posters, while not solving the problem.


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## Roman (Mar 15, 2009)

Relique du Madde said:


> Now that I'm out of those blasted "stages of Grief", I was actually going to try to contact him myself.  Especially since this after noon I mentally went over all the posts in the Hive threads and realized that I missed a lot of warning signs and little bits of info that I should have approached but decided not to.




Having now read the entire thread, I am no longer so concerned about his possible suicidal feelings. It is now clear that this was not some isolated grab at attention, but it fits a pattern of activity with his alternate accounts in the Hive and deception there.


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## pogre (Mar 15, 2009)

I came to this forum to check on posts about Rev...

I had not seen the "gods" post, but I was taken in by the earlier stuff.

I'll be honest, I can be taken again. I'll continue to take people at face value to the best of my ability.


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## Dracorat (Mar 15, 2009)

This only proves the one universal truth.

*You never really know who people are, even when you think you do. Anyone is capable of anything under the right/wrong circumstances.*

I will end with this:

I hope that the user Rev grows from the experience.


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## S'mon (Mar 15, 2009)

Dracorat said:


> Anyone is capable of anything under the right/wrong circumstances.[/b]




Untrue - and it's a dangerous assumption that because you personally are capable of X, so is everyone else.

OTOH, it is very hard to be sure what any other person is or is not capable of.


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## Herremann the Wise (Mar 15, 2009)

Teflon Billy said:


> Herremann the Wise said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Please, do not be sorry.

I think Rev's actions and the consequences from them will provide plenty of punishment for him - with or without the ban. Banning him to give people time to handle the issue is sensible. A permanent ban... perhaps since it seems that this was not an isolated incident... I don't know. It's a tough decision and one that I think the moderators have universal respect from the board for making. I'm still concerned that there might be further issues with Rev as I mentioned previously which is why I prefer the concept of rehabilitation over punishment. I suppose his email is available for those that wish to send him their support.



			
				Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> If you don't want to see punishment, then how are you not "letting it Slide"?




Letting it slide to me means not dealing with the situation and its manyfold repercussions. Not wanting to see punishment does not necessarily mean letting it slide. Alternatively, wanting to see punishment does not necessarily mean dealing with the issues. If one wished to see Rev banned so that one didn't have to have anything further to do with the guy, effectively banishing him, then is that necessarily dealing with what he did, and how one reacted to it? Different, but I think somewhat equal to "letting it slide". If Rev was invited back to the boards at some time in the future, such a person will find that a lot of the disappointment at being emotionally played with will still be there. Possibly even some sort of revenge or attack will most probably seem inevitable, even if it's just ignoring him. Obviously, I don't see such a path as ideal; too much unhappy baggage to carry around that may affect one's compassion if a similar (but truthful) situation arose on the boards.

By forgiving him, I have thought about what he did and how it affected not only me but also the community here. I've thought that continuing the cycle and rejecting him is unsuitable for me, particularly if he's in a dark spot at the moment. Accepting that I and others have been wronged but realizing I would do the same over again and gladly is important for me. Rather than seeing how I and others were "suckered" in as a weakness or fault, I see it as a sign of the strength and compassion of this community. A sign that being a very small part of EN World is actually a very important part of my life (be that silly or not). If Rev came back, I would be able to respond to his posts with a clean slate, without rancor or any need to relive the incident. While I wouldn't forget what happened I also wouldn't hold it against him anymore. To me that is personally dealing with the situation and not letting it slide. Please let me say as well that this is obviously not something I want to force on anyone else - it's just what works best for me. Everyone's entitled to deal with it in what ever way they choose, and so should it be.

Perhaps as well though, it is worth mentioning that it is easier for me to forgive for while I responded to his posts and he was a well known identity to me (as Fru too), I obviously have not had the closeness of contact as others here. I feel for what those who were closer to him are having to deal with. All in all, it was a severly ill-considered thing for Rev to do; his motives at this stage unknown and I suppose it will remain that way. Anyway peace be with you all.

Best Regards once again,

Herremann the Wise


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## megamania (Mar 15, 2009)

Whatever the Mods suggest / do I will support.   


Its sad however, In my mind, when Rev "fell" into a coma he did "Die" and will not return.


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## tenkar (Mar 15, 2009)

I can understand why the mods do not want to divulge Rev's personal history.  I also can understand why many, if not most, of the posters want more info to be able to understand HOW and WHY this community got played as well as it did.  IMHO, Rev gave up all expectations of privacy when he started down this slippery slope of deception and deceit based upon a fictitious turn of events in his life that he proceeded to share as fact.  Still, I respect the ENWorld staff for keeping such information private.

As for the forgive and forget, you can forgive and still punish.  They are not mutually exclusive.  Here and now he is a poison on these boards due to his actions and manipulations of the emotions of this community.  I can forgive him as a person yet still be of the opinion that he should never be allowed to post on these boards again.


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## messy (Mar 15, 2009)

Filcher said:


> Lame.
> 
> Stupid waste of our time, and his.




that about sums it up for me. i've always found internet hoaxes to be a stupid waste of time.

messy


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## Umbran (Mar 15, 2009)

Roman said:


> Please, please can you at least indicate that this is not the case in this situation to put my mind at ease? Thank you for your understanding.




I thoroughly understand your concern, but we aren't in a position to discuss Rev's mental state.  

You folks all have the same access to Rev as we do - e-mail.  If you are concerned, you might want to drop him a line.


----------



## Roman (Mar 15, 2009)

Umbran said:


> I thoroughly understand your concern, but we aren't in a position to discuss Rev's mental state.
> 
> You folks all have the same access to Rev as we do - e-mail.  If you are concerned, you might want to drop him a line.




Having now read the rest of the thread, I am now much less concerned - this seems to fit a pattern of long premeditated manipulation - not a sudden cry for attention.


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## wingsandsword (Mar 15, 2009)

tenkar said:


> I can understand why the mods do not want to divulge Rev's personal history.  I also can understand why many, if not most, of the posters want more info to be able to understand HOW and WHY this community got played as well as it did.  IMHO, Rev gave up all expectations of privacy when he started down this slippery slope of deception and deceit based upon a fictitious turn of events in his life that he proceeded to share as fact.  Still, I respect the ENWorld staff for keeping such information private.



This.

I fully understand why the mods don't want to reveal anything they know or make speculations about about Rev's history and medical/psychological state both for reasons of decency and privacy, and even possible legal reasons.

However, as he discussed these matters so much in his posts (and posts with disguised alts like "Rev's Mandy"), and we have discovered that so much of what he said was fiction it's only natural that people will wonder how much was real, how much was fiction, and what the real truth of everything is


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## catsclaw227 (Mar 15, 2009)

S'mon said:


> DonTadow said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Is it appropriate to ask what this social experiment was?  I think it's relevant to the conversation and at the same time, it doesn't infringe upon anyone's privacy or medical condition.  

It was a public situation that also affected other EW members, and I am curious what it was.   I want to be able keep my eyes open for a similar things, in case anyone else gets swept up into something new.

I don't expect mods to comment on it, and rightly so, but if any EW members have any recollection of the events, I'd be interested in the facts.


----------



## Treebore (Mar 15, 2009)

So has anyone tried communicating with Charles? Is he responding?


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## S'mon (Mar 15, 2009)

catsclaw227 said:


> Is it appropriate to ask what this social experiment was?  I think it's relevant to the conversation and at the same time, it doesn't infringe upon anyone's privacy or medical condition.
> 
> It was a public situation that also affected other EW members, and I am curious what it was.   I want to be able keep my eyes open for a similar things, in case anyone else gets swept up into something new.
> 
> I don't expect mods to comment on it, and rightly so, but if any EW members have any recollection of the events, I'd be interested in the facts.




I can't remember what it was about, but supposedly a real group situation.  I remember myself and others getting worked up about it, having a good deal of emotional investment, before it was revealed to be just hypothetical.  I recall it being very skillfully done, in a manipulative sort of way.  We were being experimented on.


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## Psionicist (Mar 15, 2009)

Moderators: If the guy writes a response (explanation, apology or something) and asks you to relay it to the community, will you publish it?


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## Relique du Madde (Mar 16, 2009)

Treebore said:


> So has anyone tried communicating with Charles? Is he responding?




I have.  He has.

I don't think I can disclose what he said publicly.  But from what he said, what he did was definitely a cry for help.  He also appears to be in a very dark place emotionally which actually worries me greatly.  

I don't think he knows that his alts. were discovered, but I surmise that his use of them may have been his only means of escape from his life situation.  But I'm not sure if he realized the emotional harm he was causing by using them or during his "hoax".


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## catsclaw227 (Mar 16, 2009)

Relique du Madde said:


> I have.  He has.
> 
> I don't think I can disclose what he said publicly.  But from what he said, what he did was definitely a cry for help.  He also appears to be in a very dark place emotionally which actually worries me greatly.
> 
> I don't think he knows that his alts. were discovered, but I surmise that his use of them may have been his only means of escape from his life situation.  But I'm not sure if he realized the emotional harm he was causing by using them or during his "hoax".



Have you suggested that he prepare some kind of statement that he would be willing to have you post publicly?  I am not even sure if this is the right thing to do, but it might shed some light on things for other people.

If he does write something, maybe he should know in advance that his alts were discovered so that he can put his statement into proper context.

I don't know....  I'm not a mental health professional, so take the ideas with a grain of salt. And few of us are, so maybe none of us should be giving any advice (yes, there are some, some whom have even posted in this thread.).

Still, I'd like to know the reasons.  But, I know myself, and "because i wanted the attention" won't satisfy me...


----------



## Darrin Drader (Mar 16, 2009)

Knightfall said:


> And, if you ever doubt my existance again, just ask Darrin Drader if I'm real or not.
> 
> Then again... he might deny my existance just to be funny.




I was about to say that if you were a fake, it was the most well executed fake I'd ever seen, and the deception would have gone back about a decade.


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## Jack7 (Mar 16, 2009)

> I don't know.... I'm not a mental health professional, so take the ideas with a grain of salt. And few of us are, so maybe none of us should be giving any advice (yes, there are some, some whom have even posted in this thread.).
> 
> Still, I'd like to know the reasons. But, I know myself, and "because i wanted the attention" won't satisfy me...





It is theoretically possible that he would tell all truthfully. His motivations, methods, his state of mind.

Then again if he does indeed have a prior history of doing this kind of thing, and that being the case assume that the number of attempts at manipulating others versus being caught in the act are uneven factors, then consider any potential replies in that light.

If his mental state is indeed at the moment confused and disorderly then his answer will be likewise skewed by that involuntary condition. If he is fully in possession of his faculties and just chooses to make a habit of manipulating others then his assessment of his own behavior will be skewed by that voluntary manner of behavior.

In either case I don't think you can expect objective and rational "truth." The best you can realistically expect is possible insight if he says something, based upon the way he replies.

In any case I wouldn't expect an answer, or real reasons. 
You might though get a sort of reply.


----------



## Relique du Madde (Mar 16, 2009)

catsclaw227 said:


> Have you suggested that he prepare some kind of statement that he would be willing to have you post publicly?  I am not even sure if this is the right thing to do, but it might shed some light on things for other people.
> 
> If he does write something, maybe he should know in advance that his alts were discovered so that he can put his statement into proper context.




I can't ask him to do that without Piratecat's and the admin/moderaton staff's approval.

However, I should add that I told him about the disclosure of his alts.



> Still, I'd like to know the reasons.  But, I know myself, and "because i wanted the attention" won't satisfy me...



*Points to umbran's moderation several pages ago*


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## catsclaw227 (Mar 16, 2009)

Relique du Madde said:


> I can't ask him to do that without Piratecat's and the admin/moderaton staff's approval.
> 
> However, I should add that I told him about the disclosure of his alts.



Understood.



Relique du Madde said:


> *Points to umbran's moderation several pages ago*



Yea, I know....    I really should let this go.


----------



## Umbran (Mar 16, 2009)

Psionicist said:


> Moderators: If the guy writes a response (explanation, apology or something) and asks you to relay it to the community, will you publish it?




We have not discussed this as a group - so, maybe.  We certainly would not promise to publish it without seeing it first.

As a purely personal opinion, I'd have to wonder if it would accomplish anything.  He has clearly been manipulating people here for many months, his credibility is pretty much shot.  How is anyone going to know the difference between a sincere statement, and one last attempt at manipulation?  

It is possible that he really does need help - while we do like to make sure folks can get support here, we also recognize that the internet is not a qualified mental health professional.  If things are that bad for him, he needs to talk to flesh-and-blood with training, not us.


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## CleverNickName (Mar 16, 2009)

umbran said:


> it is possible that he really does need help - while we do like to make sure folks can get support here, we also recognize that the internet is not a qualified mental health professional.  If things are that bad for him, he needs to talk to flesh-and-blood with training, not us.



qft.


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## Ry (Mar 16, 2009)

I suspected, but decided to go at face value since I knew he'd met some of the other members in person.  I also remember the support and concern I got from Enworld when I had health problems a few years ago.

Ah well.  I don't regret sending well wishes - just like I don't regret sending Gary get well wishes.  But I do think this is pretty sick in the head, and I'm glad he's banned.


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## Aberzanzorax (Mar 16, 2009)

Relique du Madde said:


> I have. He has.
> 
> I don't think I can disclose what he said publicly. But from what he said, what he did was definitely a cry for help. He also appears to be in a very dark place emotionally which actually worries me greatly.




It makes me happy that you are reaching out and attempting to maintain your friendship with him.

I would also ask you to beware that what he may be saying now regarding where he is emotionally or what his reasons were could be real, or could merely be a continuation of his games. You're likely aware of this, but I thought it important to point out to the community.

I'd also raise this same point about the "let him write an explanation letter" idea.  I'd expect there to be all manner of emotional turmoil within it (whether true or not). I would imagine that this would not be able to be factually verified. I do not see further emotional exposure as beneficial to the community. Closure is important. An unverifiable emotional letter would lead to less closure, not more.


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## pawsplay (Mar 16, 2009)

Wow, what an interesting saga. I didn't follow it closely, since I didn't have a clear image of Reveille, but I thought it was sweet and touching that this site would rally in support. On the other hand, I have become suspicious of the value of investing emotionally with semi-anonymous strangers. What makes this case interesting is that he had met with others face-to-face and had presented some version of himself. Nonetheless, it should be recognized that on the Internet or in real life, only time, experience, and thoughtfulness can build a true friendship.

It is likely Reveille is a disturbed or at least unhappy individual. It is almost certain that these activities did nothing to dispel his unhappy feelings. From that standpoint, I cannot imagine what purpose would be served by further engagement. On the other hand, I cannot imagine what purpose a permanent ban does that a six month suspension would not. If he chose to violate this suspension, there would be more than adequate justification for the ban. But assuming he chose to honor it, he could conceivably return at a later date. I don't know what purpose might be served, but I also do not see the harm.  This is, as has been said, a community, and while I can pragmatic and just reasons to suspend him, I cannot detect what the community gains by refusing to engage a hypothetically rehabilitated Rev at a later date. Perhaps that is something that could be addressed by the mods via email, but I like the idea of a rehabilitation process being in place that requires no soul-searching, only patience and willingness.

As for future policy... I find it difficult to identify what about this hoax would distinguish it qualitatively from a more common prank. It is important to distinguish what happened in more than degree, to say what about it specifically was wrong. I can see two defining features. First, it is non-topical; it has nothing to do with games or gaming or the like, but rather, with a dramatic story about one person. If it were a real-life event, there is no problem, but as a prank it is ultimately a waste of bandwidth, friendship, and attention on a gaming site. That is an adequate rationale for saying this is different from the common (or not so common, but benign) prank. Second, it is uncivil, in that loss of life can be discussed lightly but should never be held lightly. I will not disallow the possibility there is a funny coma-related prank that could be enacted, but I have trouble imagining what it is, and I think this and similar topics can be considered generally unsuitable. In this case, it was clearly a disturbing and provocative use that distressed many people. Both distinctions have everything to do with intent and not so much with form. 

I do not wish to see a policy shift. There is nothing productive to be gained by having the mods sniff every request-for-prayers post for mischief, and much to be lost in goodwill toward others. I am fine with the occasional hoax. I am ok with being had, for so cheap a price. Similarly, I would not like to see such posts be met with pages of speculation. I think it's enough to accept things at face value and permit them a reasonable level of discussion, until such time as the post submits evidence of being a hoax. It is better to be tricked, than to withhold compassion, and better to be a site that is too-trusting than one in which charity of spirit and well wishes are forbidden. 

It might be worthwhile to have a thread in Meta that simply links to known hoaxes. This would serve a historical purpose, as well as fostering a reasonable level of caution and skepticism, without encouraging pessimism. It would say, "Yes, this does happen."  That's all that really needs to be said in the long run.

I feel badly for the people who felt close to him and were tricked. I feel badly for him, too, and I hope he comes to recognize a path to interacting positively with others. I have the benefit of distance from this situation. Not to make light of the distress others feel, but I can see a positive side to this. It is a bizarre and one-of-a-kind story, an opportunity to experience the world in a new pattern, and learn and perhaps even, in time, to laugh. Truly, each of us is a miraculous, unique creation. Today I celebrate that I have now read about a thing I had little notion would occur only a few days before. I don't know if we can all laugh about this some day, but we can certainly apprehend it with amazement and confusion.


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## Korgoth (Mar 16, 2009)

Relique du Madde said:


> I don't think I can disclose what he said publicly.  But from what he said, what he did was definitely a cry for help.  He also appears to be in a very dark place emotionally which actually worries me greatly.




Well, the BS he pulled here seems like the mental health equivalent of fainting spells or blood in the urine... I'm not a medical professional of any kind but it definitely seems like a case of *"Seek Immediate Medical Attention!"*


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## Vanuslux (Mar 16, 2009)

When the post about his "coma" first came up, I felt sympathy but since I didn't really know him on a personal level I didn't keep following the thread since I knew it would depress me.  

Having just discovered this post and reading through it brought back some memories for me of when someone pulled something similar on me and a group of my friends back when I was rocking the local BBS scene on my speedy 1200 baud modem.  I've experienced people messing with people mentally and emotionally.  It doesn't say cry for help to me, it says "I enjoy screwing with people...it makes me feel clever and powerful to know that I can control people by playing on their nobler traits."  Judging by what we have learned from Rev's history, it seems perhaps he's been experimenting with manipulating and deceiving  people around here for quite some time.  I might buy that the coma thing was a cry for help if not for all the behind the scenes, quiet ways he's apparently been screwing with other people's realities.

Some people just enjoy screwing with people's realities.  Some people are nicer about it than others.  Rev's deception definitely wasn't nice.

Though I wasn't harmed by this particular incident, my ability to trust or reach out to others was definitely damaged for years after the incident I mentioned above.


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## Deset Gled (Mar 16, 2009)

Reading over the list of alts in the Hive thread, I've actually started to wonder if the Desert Hare alt was supposed to be me.  It seems that his alts were most often created to be a charicature of another poster, and the names are modified versions of real screen names.  I'm not a hiver and haven't really interacted with Rev on the boards, so I don't think I'd be worth making a parody of, but I can't think of another screen name similar to Desert Hare.  Does anybody know who this alt was supposed to be?  Am I just being paranoid?

I only read a couple of threads that DH posted in, so I don't have enough post-ual info to see if he was trying to sound like me.  I do remember him sounding like a bit of an ass in the Watchmen thread - which makes me a little nervous.  It makes me strongly consider rejoining as a Community Supporter just so I can use the "Find more posts by" feature.


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## Teflon Billy (Mar 16, 2009)

I don't want to see him around here again.


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## Samuel Leming (Mar 16, 2009)

Wow! It's a shame that this happened to you guys.

A health hoax by a guy that had close to thirty alts? What a kick in the shorts.

Don't worry though, I'm sure EN World will get through this just fine.

Sam


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## S'mon (Mar 16, 2009)

Vanuslux said:


> I've experienced people messing with people mentally and emotionally.  It doesn't say cry for help to me, it says "I enjoy screwing with people...it makes me feel clever and powerful to know that I can control people by playing on their nobler traits."  Judging by what we have learned from Rev's history, it seems perhaps he's been experimenting with manipulating and deceiving  people around here for quite some time.  I might buy that the coma thing was a cry for help if not for all the behind the scenes, quiet ways he's apparently been screwing with other people's realities.
> 
> Some people just enjoy screwing with people's realities.




I agree.


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## Edgewood (Mar 16, 2009)

Umbran said:


> We have not discussed this as a group - so, maybe.  We certainly would not promise to publish it without seeing it first.
> 
> As a purely personal opinion, I'd have to wonder if it would accomplish anything.  He has clearly been manipulating people here for many months, his credibility is pretty much shot.  How is anyone going to know the difference between a sincere statement, and one last attempt at manipulation?
> 
> It is possible that he really does need help - while we do like to make sure folks can get support here, we also recognize that the internet is not a qualified mental health professional.  If things are that bad for him, he needs to talk to flesh-and-blood with training, not us.




This. 

Reveille's issues are beyond any of us. 

When I read the very first post from "Rev's Mandy" I spotted several red flags in the wording. As a police officer I frequently obtain and review statements from many people to aid in detecting deceit or falsehoods. I'm kicking myself now for not advising the mods about this because the first post revealed to me that it was not entirely truthful.

At any rate, Rev needs to take the first step in getting help, and I'll wager that he has family that will at least help in that regard. Other than that I hope he gets it because all too often I see those that do need the help fail to realize that they require it.


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## Boregar (Mar 16, 2009)

I'll begin by saying that I'm not a regular poster on here, and that this is my first post in a long while (for reason's that will be mentioned shortly), but I thought I had to say something about this.

Several months ago, I had a health scare that put me in hospital for a week, and I still have on-going memory problems as a result. My wife and I are both regulars on an Ice-hockey discussion board, and during my hospital stay and while we have been dealing with my problems, she was posting updates about my progress on there. She says that it has been very helpful to her during this time, not just knowing that so many people were sending us good wishes and support, but even just the process of writing things down made them seem a little easier to deal with. And reading back through it recently also made me feel much better too.

I guess what I'm wanting to say here is that, in real circumstances, threads like the one posted by 'Rev's Mandy' do actually provide a lot of help and comfort, and I would hate to think that something like this happening would make people more reluctant to post on a similar thread in the future. Showing concern and compassion is a positive trait, and should be encouraged, and I'd like to hope that the majority of people in what seems to be a good community here, will still be willing to reach out to any other member of our community who might need it in the future.

Edited to add - Thanks to the admins for the 'Happy birthday e-mail' that gets sent out, or otherwise I would never have rediscovered my user-name on here.


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## Olaf the Stout (Mar 16, 2009)

Deset Gled said:


> Reading over the list of alts in the Hive thread, I've actually started to wonder if the Desert Hare alt was supposed to be me.  It seems that his alts were most often created to be a charicature of another poster, and the names are modified versions of real screen names.  I'm not a hiver and haven't really interacted with Rev on the boards, so I don't think I'd be worth making a parody of, but I can't think of another screen name similar to Desert Hare.  Does anybody know who this alt was supposed to be?  Am I just being paranoid?
> 
> I only read a couple of threads that DH posted in, so I don't have enough post-ual info to see if he was trying to sound like me.  I do remember him sounding like a bit of an ass in the Watchmen thread - which makes me a little nervous.  It makes me strongly consider rejoining as a Community Supporter just so I can use the "Find more posts by" feature.




I don't think he was trying to imitate you.  From memory Rev was from Arizona so that's probably where the Desert part of the username came from.  As for the Hare bit, your guess is as good as mine.

Olaf the Stout


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## jaerdaph (Mar 16, 2009)

Darrin Drader said:


> I was about to say that if you were a fake, it was the most well executed fake I'd ever seen, and the deception would have gone back about a decade.




LOL! And considering the amount of detail and mapping that has gone into the World of Kulan, it would be the most elaborate ruse ever! 

Never doubted you for a moment, Knightfall.


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## catsclaw227 (Mar 16, 2009)

Umbran said:


> As a purely personal opinion, I'd have to wonder if it would accomplish anything.  He has clearly been manipulating people here for many months, his credibility is pretty much shot.  How is anyone going to know the difference between a sincere statement, and one last attempt at manipulation?



I suppose I was thinking that there could be some closure for people.  Even though what he posts as an apology letter could be just as disingenuous as the original hoax.



Umbran said:


> It is possible that he really does need help - while we do like to make sure folks can get support here, we also recognize that the internet is not a qualified mental health professional.  If things are that bad for him, he needs to talk to flesh-and-blood with training, not us.



Yeppers.  100% true.



Aberzanzorax said:


> I'd also raise this same point about the "let him write an explanation letter" idea.  I'd expect there to be all manner of emotional turmoil within it (whether true or not). I would imagine that this would not be able to be factually verified. I do not see further emotional exposure as beneficial to the community. Closure is important. An unverifiable emotional letter would lead to less closure, not more.



You could be right, but he's sorta been "on trial" here, with many of us his jurors.  He should get a right to speak his peace, even if it is all BS.

NOTE:  I think the mods have handled this amazingly.  He's not on trial, per se, like his fate is being decided by the community.  Nevertheless, many of us (me included) are judging him. 



pawsplay said:


> I do not wish to see a policy shift. There is nothing productive to be gained by having the mods sniff every request-for-prayers post for mischief, and much to be lost in goodwill toward others. I am fine with the occasional hoax. I am ok with being had, for so cheap a price. Similarly, I would not like to see such posts be met with pages of speculation. I think it's enough to accept things at face value and permit them a reasonable level of discussion, until such time as the post submits evidence of being a hoax. It is better to be tricked, than to withhold compassion, and better to be a site that is too-trusting than one in which charity of spirit and well wishes are forbidden.



QF(some)T, but for some, this affected them in different ways.  I imagine there are people here that would disagree with the "for so cheap a price" categorization.  I do agree that I prefer to be an optimist than a pessimist and I look at people as good and trusting, in general. And sometimes there are those that prey on this trait.



pawsplay said:


> It might be worthwhile to have a thread in Meta that simply links to known hoaxes. This would serve a historical purpose, as well as fostering a reasonable level of caution and skepticism, without encouraging pessimism. It would say, "Yes, this does happen."  That's all that really needs to be said in the long run.



Interesting idea.


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## Filcher (Mar 16, 2009)

Add my voice to the "Good work, Admins," chorus. They've respected Rev's privacy, and given the community a way to vent. I'm done, but if I've learned anything, it is that the ENworld admins take their "job" very seriously and do an amazing job at it.


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## vic20 (Mar 16, 2009)

*Where is the Alt List?*

I keep hearing reference to a list of all of Rev's alts, but I haven't been able to find it by searching the boards.

Can somebody please link to the post with the list?


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## Treebore (Mar 16, 2009)

Boregar said:


> I'll begin by saying that I'm not a regular poster on here, and that this is my first post in a long while (for reason's that will be mentioned shortly), but I thought I had to say something about this.
> 
> Several months ago, I had a health scare that put me in hospital for a week, and I still have on-going memory problems as a result. My wife and I are both regulars on an Ice-hockey discussion board, and during my hospital stay and while we have been dealing with my problems, she was posting updates about my progress on there. She says that it has been very helpful to her during this time, not just knowing that so many people were sending us good wishes and support, but even just the process of writing things down made them seem a little easier to deal with. And reading back through it recently also made me feel much better too.
> 
> ...




Don't worry, I for one won't stop praying for fellow board members. I spent a solid year fighting for my life, and part of why Charles/Rev angers me so much over this is that I wish I could have had people praying for me and sending me well wishes like Rev got over completely false pretenses. It was literally a year of Hell for me, but it was back in 1993 to 1994, so this board didn't even exist back then. Its amazing the kind of strength and hope you can get from such things, especially when its truly bad and life threatening like Rev pretended it was.

So I can forgive Charles if he were to ever ask it, but I would never trust him again, his betrayal of our trust was just too fundamentally deep for me to ever trust him again. Which also means we will never be friends. I have to be able to trust my friends.

Honesty is hard for many people, which is why I have so few friends, but intentional and planned betrayal goes to a completely whole new level.


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## Piratecat (Mar 16, 2009)

vic20 said:


> I keep hearing reference to a list of all of Rev's alts, but I haven't been able to find it by searching the boards.
> 
> Can somebody please link to the post with the list?



http://www.enworld.org/forum/4709291-post116.html


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## Dannyalcatraz (Mar 17, 2009)

Treebore said:


> Don't worry, I for one won't stop praying for fellow board members.




QFT.



> So I can forgive Charles if he were to ever ask it, but I would never trust him again, his betrayal of our trust was just too fundamentally deep for me to ever trust him again. Which also means we will never be friends. I have to be able to trust my friends.



Again, QFT.


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## Legildur (Mar 17, 2009)

Aside from the implicit trust we all (to a greater or lesser degree) provide to those people that open up on a bulletin board, there are other reasons why people did not comment when the BS started to flow.

Not only do people not want to appear cynical in a time of apparent crisis and risk being flamed, but I for one was curious as to why "Mandy" wasn't living with her 'fiance' and why the 'fiance' was not considered 'family' for access to the intensive care ward. However, being in Australia, I had no idea about what the cultural/legal norms might have existed for wherever Rev lived and what his background might have been.

It's just speculation as to why making comment on these things is awkward.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Mar 17, 2009)

> I for one was curious as to why "Mandy" wasn't living with her 'fiance' and why the 'fiance' was not considered 'family' for access to the intensive care ward. However, being in Australia, I had no idea about what the cultural/legal norms might have existed for wherever Rev lived and what his background might have been.




Well, in the USA, even though its the 21st Century, not everyone cohabits before marriage, and whether a fiance is considered "family" in an ICU is a matter of state law, AFAIK.


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## catsclaw227 (Mar 17, 2009)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Well, in the USA, even though its the 21st Century, not everyone cohabits before marriage, and whether a fiance is considered "family" in an ICU is a matter of state law, AFAIK.



Actually its a HIPAA issue. 

A fiance is not immediate family, and even then, a patient needs to explicitly allow for certain information to be available to family members.  

For example, I can specifically request that my wife is not allowed to know what my lab results are.  

If the patient is unable to make the distinction of who is eligible to receive information, then it defaults to immediate family (wife, parents, children) or whoever was added to their list of patient information access when you fill out all that paperwork when you visit the doctor.  If THAT isn't available, they defer to the insurance information for who is entitled to medical information about the patient.

Important lesson.  If you live with your fiance, or want him/her to have access to your medical data and be granted rights to access, you should make sure you update your HIPAA information with your primary physician, any specialists you visit, as well as your health insurance information. 

Otherwise, (s)he is no different than any other dude(tte) on the street.


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## Legildur (Mar 17, 2009)

catsclaw227 said:


> Actually its a HIPAA issue.



Thanks for that background.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Mar 17, 2009)

Thanks for the reminder- I've had to do HIPAA research for my father's medical practice before, but that detail had disappeared from my mental recall in the intervening years.

It is so true- you don't use it, you lose it.


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## Relique du Madde (Mar 17, 2009)

I haven't had a response from him since he replied to my first email.   I'm not sure if he didn't like what I said (the Revelation that his alts were discovered), if it was because yahoo sent the message to a totally different email address when I pressed reply, or if there is some other reason.

I'll have to resend it to his original email address to see.


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## roguerouge (Mar 17, 2009)

catsclaw227 said:


> Have you suggested that he prepare some kind of statement that he would be willing to have you post publicly?  [snip] But, I know myself, and "because i wanted the attention" won't satisfy me...






Umbran said:


> As a purely personal opinion, I'd have to wonder if it would accomplish anything.  He has clearly been manipulating people here for many months, his credibility is pretty much shot.  How is anyone going to know the difference between a sincere statement, and one last attempt at manipulation?
> 
> It is possible that he really does need help - while we do like to make sure folks can get support here, we also recognize that the internet is not a qualified mental health professional.  If things are that bad for him, he needs to talk to flesh-and-blood with training, not us.




Even sincerity would be manipulating people at this point. 

The only thing that wins back credibility is a long history of honesty, which he'll have to start accumulating elsewhere. I can think of no more appropriate punishment for a serial liar than that.


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## Mark Hope (Mar 17, 2009)

Relique du Madde said:


> I'm not sure if he didn't like what I said (the Revelation that his alts were discovered)...




Well, if "Desert Hare" was one of his alts, then he was posting under that name over in the Video Games subforum a good 5 hours after being busted.  Could indeed be that he didn't know his alts had been discovered and was hoping to carry on regardless.


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## Janx (Mar 17, 2009)

I missed the last bits of drama in the original "Reveille's in a coma" thread that then led to this thread.  I just caught up reading all 15 pages.

I'm not going to say I thought it was a fake when I first saw the original thread.  I thought it had some odd factors, and I didn't post to it, though I thought about it, because when somebody's sick, that's what you do, you send support.  

I thought it odd, that a fiance would think to visit a gaming forum when her SO is in the hospital.  There's an 80% chance she is co-habitating with the SO, so she should have been able to use his account directly, rather than make a new account (who logs out on a secure PC?).  I thought it odd, if she had to make an account, she'd know which site to goto, and what his screen-name was and spelled it right.  It would have been more believable if she'd used HIS account.

Reveille pulled the same trick that jerks who betray the party do.  He was already in the party, and decided to pull this.  It's not hard to lie to somebody, when you're already inside the circle of trust.  This is why 80% of all hack attempts are inside jobs, they're inside the circle of trust.  Folks who believed him did the right thing.  The only remaining thing to have done, would have been to ask, "what city, hosptital and room is Reveille in, so I can send flowers" to start locking facts in to the real world.

I keep using Reveille's  full screen name for a reason.  While it may be a military wake-up song, it's also the name of Texas A&M's mascot.  Aggies are a fanatical lot, I work with a ton of them.  One thing they got is a oath.
"An Aggie will not cheat, lie or steal, nor tolerate those who do."

Now there are cases of Aggie's gone bad, just like all people, but that oath means something to most of them.  It's the same oath most military officers take during training, which makes sense given that A&M is also a military school.

That oath has an important clause to it.  "...nor tolerate those who do."  It doesn't mean hunt them down vigilante style.  It means to not keep company with them.  It means to leave their presence as soon as possible, or cast them out of your space.  This is a pretty good justification of why Reveille is permanently banned.  He didn't just lie once, for a joke, he lied a bunch.  He's a liar, and that causes trouble, which we do not have to tolerate.

When the news of his fake coma broke, there were cries that this was a monsterous thing to do.  I'd suggest, that as a single "prank", while the impact may be severe, the thinking behind the prank may not be monsterous, simply short-sighted.  Drunk drivers do monsterous things, but for the most part, they're not even thinking of hurting anybody.  Granted, later, the thread revealed there was a long chain of deception and manipulation going on.  That's monsterous.  The difference seems to have been lost on folks in the early phase of this thread.

For those who seek to contact Reveille, and get his side of things, I ask to what end?  Reveille's a proven liar in this community.  Worse, he's a proven manipulator and fabricator of heart-wrenching, sympathy garnering stories.  If it was just the one joke, then you might get a valid explanation and apology.  At this stage, given all that's been revealed about his activities, it would be foolish to trust a man who is known for lying to people to garner support.

The last order of business is sock puppet accounts.  On every other forum I am on, users are limited to one account.  There's no active search for them, but if they're found out, they're dealt with.  For the most part, having an alt account and using it in a conversation is a ploy for decieving others, hiding your identity (such as it is in an already anonymous environment).  The only time an alternate identity makes sense, is in role-playing.  Most of the sub-forums on this site are for discussing role-playing.  The only place alt accounts should be acceptable is within the ROLE-PLAYING in a game sub-forums.  

To sum up, whether the mods make a rule or not, it should become a social standard that using alt accounts outside of a role-playing/story-telling space is deceptive, which violates the Aggie creed, which ought to be an American creed, because it's a good standard.


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## JRRNeiklot (Mar 17, 2009)

Deleted.


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## Piratecat (Mar 17, 2009)

Just so folks know, we'll be un-stickying and possibly closing this thread fairly soon.


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## Alzrius (Mar 17, 2009)

Well poop.

I hadn't been paying attention since hearing that Rev "woke up," and then find out that it was all a hoax.

I'm not sure exactly how I feel about this, but I know it's not good. I was completely taken in, and now I feel manipulated. I've had people toy with my feelings in the past, and it's always a horrible, hurtful thing to have to go through.

I for one support the mod's policy of banning him for this, as well as his apparent insanity over in the Hive. EN World isn't just some forum - it's a *community*, and that has to mean something, especially when someone commits such a heinous betrayal of the community.


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## Relique du Madde (Mar 18, 2009)

Just a quick update.  I received word from Rev again.  As per my suggestion, he started to talk to his family about the things that were going on in his life that may have triggered the hoax.  That's basically all he said. 



Janx said:


> The last order of business is sock puppet accounts.  On every other forum I am on, users are limited to one account.  There's no active search for them, but if they're found out, they're dealt with.  For the most part, having an alt account and using it in a conversation is a ploy for decieving others, hiding your identity (such as it is in an already anonymous environment).  The only time an alternate identity makes sense, is in role-playing.  Most of the sub-forums on this site are for discussing role-playing.  The only place alt accounts should be acceptable is within the ROLE-PLAYING in a game sub-forums.
> 
> To sum up, whether the mods make a rule or not, it should become a social standard that using alt accounts outside of a role-playing/story-telling space is deceptive, which violates the Aggie creed, which ought to be an American creed, because it's a good standard.




The problem with that idea is that some of the mods supposedly (can't be verified) use alternate accounts to post normally on the site (without acting as a "sheriff").

There is also an issue dealing with the rare situations where someone is unable to access their normal account and are forced to create a new one as a work around.  If you target the base IP then you are potentially preventing that person from getting his account fixed.  Also it can prevent multiple family members or roommates who are logging in from the location/computer from using ENWorld.

If you target specific names, then there is an issue considering that the United States has thousands of Bill Smiths.

Sadly, due to the way the internet functions, what you mentioned is really unenforceable and can only be applied as a guideline.


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## Teflon Billy (Mar 18, 2009)

Relique du Madde said:


> Just a quick update.  I received word from Rev again.  As per my suggestion, he started to talk to his family about the things that were going on in his life that may have triggered the hoax...




"Triggered the hoax"?

That's rich. Like it was some unavoidable cause-and-effect thing.

"Crap, something triggered my shoplifting again"


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## Dannyalcatraz (Mar 18, 2009)

> That's rich. Like it was some unavoidable cause-and-effect thing.




I don't have a degree in psychology, but from what I understand, stressors- illness, traumatic events, etc.- _CAN_ help trigger "irrational" behaviors, relapses into past addictive behaviors or disorders, and the like.


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## Treebore (Mar 18, 2009)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> I don't have a degree in psychology, but from what I understand, stressors- illness, traumatic events, etc.- _CAN_ help trigger "irrational" behaviors, relapses into past addictive behaviors or disorders, and the like.





Yep.


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## Lanefan (Mar 18, 2009)

Relique du Madde said:


> The problem with that idea is that some of the mods supposedly (can't be verified) use alternate accounts to post normally on the site (without acting as a "sheriff").



This is fair, but for everyone else, such as:



> There is also an issue dealing with the rare situations where someone is unable to access their normal account and are forced to create a new one as a work around.  If you target the base IP then you are potentially preventing that person from getting his account fixed.  Also it can prevent multiple family members or roommates who are logging in from the location/computer from using ENWorld.



May I suggest that in cases like this, and for character RP alternates, that the poster's "real" name must appear in the alternate account's sig., to make clear who is who.  Other duplicates get banned.

Lan-"I ain't nobody's sock"-efan


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## jdrakeh (Mar 18, 2009)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> I don't have a degree in psychology, but from what I understand, stressors- illness, traumatic events, etc.- _CAN_ help trigger "irrational" behaviors, relapses into past addictive behaviors or disorders, and the like.




That's possible but I don't think that's the case when you're talking about a massive, ongoing, deception apparently taking place over the course of _years_ without reprieve.


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## Relique du Madde (Mar 18, 2009)

Without disclosing things that Rev hasn't given me permission to state in the public, all I could say is that its my conclusion that the coma hoax was definitely a cry for help aimed at seeing, ironically, if he would be "missed" by the community if something happened to him (my words not his).    Unfortunately, for him, as a result of discovering it was a hoax, we now know.

He gave no reasons for his other deceptions (the multiple personas/alts. that he created during the last several years), nor did I ask for any.


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## S'mon (Mar 18, 2009)

Relique du Madde said:


> Without disclosing things that Rev hasn't given me permission to state in the public, all I could say is that its my conclusion that the coma hoax was definitely a cry for help aimed at seeing, ironically, if he would be "missed" by the community if something happened to him (my words not his).




In no sense can that be considered a _cry for help_.  A cry for help would be "help me".  This was just the same kind of manipulation Rev has been obsessed with for years, only more egregious in the hurt he caused.


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## CapnZapp (Mar 18, 2009)

Piratecat said:


> Just so folks know, we'll be un-stickying and possibly closing this thread fairly soon.



Good.


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## Khaalis (Mar 18, 2009)

S'mon said:


> In no sense can that be considered a _cry for help_.  A cry for help would be "help me".  This was just the same kind of manipulation Rev has been obsessed with for years, only more egregious in the hurt he caused.



I've purposefully stayed quiet on this until now as I really didn't know Rev, but I've seen this kind of behavior many, many times going as far back as my time on BBS/Telnet (before there was an Internet).  Its always sad to see, but in truth, its inevitable in this anonymous environment.

I just want to point out however, as a former EMT and Suicide Counselor, that you are quite wrong on this point. There are Many ways of crying out for help, and I would estimate less than 10% of them are actually anything to close to actually admitting "help me".  In fact, in most cases, the person doesn't even realize they are crying out for help with their actions, with the cry for help being more of a subconscious survival instinct. According to the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention, 75% of all people who try to kill themselves give prior warning of their intentions.

A small sample list of typical signs of severe depression and suicidal tendencies include:

Talking About Dying -- any mention of dying, disappearing, jumping, shooting oneself, or other types of self harm; as well as hypochondriasis

Recent Loss such as through death, divorce, loss of job , money, status,  loss of interest in friends, hobbies, activities previously enjoyed

Changes in Personality, Behavior and Judgment

Change in Sleep Patterns, Eating Habits, Sexual Interest

Fear of losing control -- going crazy, harming self or others

Low self esteem -- feeling worthless, shame, overwhelming guilt, self-hatred, "everyone would be better off without me"

No hope for the future -- believing things will never get better; that nothing will ever change

Also keep in mind that these behaviors can begin years before the "condition" reaches a critical point. In fact, many people in this country live with varying levels of mild to severe depression for most of their lives. Just because this pattern of behavior started months or years ago, doesn't mean the person in question hasn't been on a downward spiral. 

The person in question may also suffer from a mild (or growing) form of Munchausen Syndrome.

Again, I'm not saying the person in question should be excused for their actions, nor am I condoning the actions. All I am saying is that the person in question is most likely in need of some professional help, and nothing is so simple and cut and dry as saying that someone in need of help would simply say "help me".

Just my $0.02 worth.


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## Ydars (Mar 18, 2009)

What Rev did is analogous to someone committing arson: he wanted to have an effect and to see his actions writ large. We all want to feel important but problems start when the only way someone can feel important is by causing harm to other people or their property.

They are literally saying "this is the only thing I know how to do that makes me feel like I mean something to this world."

It must be a terrible thing, when the only effect you feel you can have is bad.


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## Aberzanzorax (Mar 18, 2009)

I'd again caution against ascribing motivations. 


As far as psychology goes, yes, a cry for help can be in many forms. The above post by Khaalis put it very well.


However, there are also disorders in the Axis II spectrum called "personality disorders". They *don't* mean you have a crappy personality, and I have a personal dislike of their name because of that unfortunate connotation.

A personality disorder is a longstanding maladaptive pattern of interacting with the world. It is usually less focused than an Axis I disorder (those that you likely have heard of that are not in Axis II).


So, constantly reaching out for emotional comfort through patterns that repeatedly result in the opposite of emotional comfort (alienating others and creating a cycle of emotional need) could be an example of a personality disorder.

I am NOT attempting to diagnose ANYONE through forums. That is an endeavor foolishly attempted and doomed to failure. This comment should not be taken as any form of advice for Reville. It is meant to be educational for the forums as a whole. 


In a personality disorder, negative actions are not usually (though sometimes, and are more common in some specific personality disorders) cries for help. They are ways of coping with the world which ultimately don't get the person what they need, and also tend to cause problems for the individual (and perhaps others).



All that wall of text is basically meant to again state: we don't know. We shouldn't pretend we know, or really, even hypothesize, as we have no way of testing any hypothesis. This behavior could have been multiple cries for help, a longstanding pattern of maladaptive interaction, or simply someone who gets his kicks by messing with others.

We just don't know. I certainly wouldn't claim I do.


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## Mournblade94 (Mar 18, 2009)

Asmor said:


> Foreword: All I know of the story is what Piratecat's posted.
> 
> Wow. On the one hand, this was a total dick thing to do.
> 
> ...




Yes it did can cause problems.  People were demonstrating goodwill and there is emotion in that.  When someone extends that goodwill and it is discovered the reasons were false, they will be less apt to extend it in the future.  It increases the cynicism of the community while limiting the goodwill that is available.


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## Henrix (Mar 18, 2009)

I felt betrayed by Reveille, but I also feel very sorry for him. I don't think he's really hurt anyone much.

In the main he's been a good and constructive member of this board for a long time.

Getting caught in destructive beahaviour is easy, and sad. I've done it (though by other means), and I can understand.

I hope he gets help and that his problems will be resolved.
I'd welcome him back, with perhaps a few provisions, any day. (But I can really understand if he doesn't want to.)

To err is all too human, and forgive divine.


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## Roman (Mar 18, 2009)

Khaalis said:


> I've purposefully stayed quiet on this until now as I really didn't know Rev, but I've seen this kind of behavior many, many times going as far back as my time on BBS/Telnet (before there was an Internet).  Its always sad to see, but in truth, its inevitable in this anonymous environment.
> 
> I just want to point out however, as a former EMT and Suicide Counselor, that you are quite wrong on this point. There are Many ways of crying out for help, and I would estimate less than 10% of them are actually anything to close to actually admitting "help me".  In fact, in most cases, the person doesn't even realize they are crying out for help with their actions, with the cry for help being more of a subconscious survival instinct. According to the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention, 75% of all people who try to kill themselves give prior warning of their intentions.
> 
> ...




Thank you for your elaboration on this. I was worried about Rel, but because there was a long-term pattern to his deceptions, my worry had subsided. Now I see, however, that even a long-term pattern can indicate a cry for help. Still, at least he is now talking to his family about it, so that will hopefully help him.


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## Mournblade94 (Mar 18, 2009)

Janx said:


> I
> The last order of business is sock puppet accounts. On every other forum I am on, users are limited to one account. There's no active search for them, but if they're found out, they're dealt with. For the most part, having an alt account and using it in a conversation is a ploy for decieving others, hiding your identity (such as it is in an already anonymous environment). The only time an alternate identity makes sense, is in role-playing. Most of the sub-forums on this site are for discussing role-playing. The only place alt accounts should be acceptable is within the ROLE-PLAYING in a game sub-forums.
> 
> To sum up, whether the mods make a rule or not, it should become a social standard that using alt accounts outside of a role-playing/story-telling space is deceptive, which violates the Aggie creed, which ought to be an American creed, because it's a good standard.




This is most likely unenforceable.  

During any given day, I operate from several different computers.  It is easy for me to make a fake hotmail or yahoo email and make up an alt.  No one here would ever know if I was posting under an alt, which I would not do anyway (I hold myself accountable, I would not write anything in a forum that I would not say to someone personally).

With that said I don't know how deceptive posting under an alt could be since the forums are by their nature anonmymous identities (though the true person can legally be tracked down).

I am not forum savvy so I could easily be mistaken, but I think there are probably people here posting under alts that are sailing by fine.  You would be recognizable by writing style alone, and any skilled writer can alter that.


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## Piratecat (Mar 18, 2009)

So folks know -- instead of penalizing everyone via a time-consuming manhunt for alternate accounts, we'll just deal with problems should they arise.


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## broghammerj (Mar 18, 2009)

Piratecat said:


> So folks know -- instead of penalizing everyone via a time-consuming manhunt for alternate accounts, we'll just deal with problems should they arise.




....puts pitchfork and torches away......


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## S'mon (Mar 18, 2009)

Khaalis said:


> nothing is so simple and cut and dry as saying that someone in need of help would simply say "help me".




(1)  I didn't say that.  You seem to be conflating "needs help" with "a cry for help".  By your standard almost any behaviour could be called "a cry for help" and there's no way to say it's not.

(2) I suffer from depression myself.  So do a lot of people.  Most people deal with it without hurting others.


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## Jdvn1 (Mar 18, 2009)

As someone who was originally concerned for Fru, thank you for bringing this to our attention, PC.

I wish him the best, and hope he is able to move on.


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## wingsandsword (Mar 19, 2009)

Relique du Madde said:


> Without disclosing things that Rev hasn't given me permission to state in the public, all I could say is that its my conclusion that the coma hoax was definitely a cry for help aimed at seeing, ironically, if he would be "missed" by the community if something happened to him (my words not his).    Unfortunately, for him, as a result of discovering it was a hoax, we now know.



Well, judging from the replies when people thought he was in a coma and maybe dying, the old Rev we thought we knew would have been deeply and dearly missed. . .

However by it being revealed what kind of deception and manipulation had been in play for so long tainted much of that "you'll be missed" feeling.  It certainly did not destroy it, as this thread has shown, but it's, very sadly, put a taint on missing him to know the deceptions that he had engaged in against us.


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## talien (Mar 19, 2009)

Having dealt with this in my 15 years as an administrator on RetroMUD, and my thesis on anonymity proving that it does indeed provoke "disinhibitive behavior," I fully support the staff's decision to ban Reveille. Community is a delicate, ephemeral thing, and the goodwill that is part of ENWorld's culture was earned through careful stewardship and rules enforcement.  

Rev's blatant manipulation of the ENWorld community is a violation of that stewardship. In essence, a predator infiltrated the board's ranks.  It is entirely within the staff's rights to ban him.  In fact, it's a very important part of protecting the community and reinforcing that this is a safe place to express personal details about oneself. As others have pointed out, failure to defend the community brings into question everyone else posting details about themselves.  ENWorld was forced to draw a line and I'm glad it did.

In my experience, this will not curb Rev's behavior one iota. The griefing players we had who concocted entire false lives/tragedies for themselves on RetroMUD never go away.  They come back in a different form.  In fact, there seems to be a pathological NEED for them to come back.  They crave attention, and a ban doesn't stop that behavior.  I feel that the ban was as much to reinforce the integrity of ENWorld as it was to punish Rev.

One final caveat: It's a lot easier to say that someone was mentally unbalanced, because it makes everyone who felt betrayed by him feel better.  Being deceived by a mentally ill person is something we can all sympathize with, but being duped by a charlatan makes us feel dumb.  And nobody likes to feel dumb.


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## S'mon (Mar 19, 2009)

Well said, Mike.


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## Rel (Mar 19, 2009)

Roman said:


> Thank you for your elaboration on this. I was worried about *Rel*, but because there was a long-term pattern to his deceptions, my worry had subsided.




I'm OK!

I was just gone camping for a couple days with my daughter.  I wasn't in a coma or anything.

EDIT:  I've now experienced two instances of this sort of deception.  First was Del over at CM faking his death as a not-funny-at-all April Fools joke (as a bonus it wasn't on April 1st) and now Rev.  What I'm wondering is why does ever deceitful conniver have to have a username so close to mine?

I dunno.  If I was you, I'd keep an eye on me.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Mar 19, 2009)

Rel said:


> I dunno.  If I was you, I'd keep an eye on me.



Hah, you just want to trick us, right?! I will definitely not keep an eye on you!


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## billd91 (Mar 19, 2009)

Rel said:


> I dunno.  If I was you, I'd keep an eye on me.




Well, put up your address. We'll start up the rotation here and I'm sure we can have someone staking out your place and stalking you by dinner time.


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## Roman (Mar 19, 2009)

Rel said:


> I'm OK!
> 
> I was just gone camping for a couple days with my daughter.  I wasn't in a coma or anything.
> 
> ...




Sorry about that! I meant *Rev* of course!


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## Roman (Mar 19, 2009)

Piratecat said:


> So folks know -- instead of penalizing everyone via a time-consuming manhunt for alternate accounts, we'll just deal with problems should they arise.




I want to commend you on the sensible approach you are taking on this issue. Making the actual rules stricter would merely inconveniance users and scammers could still bypass it - best to carry on relying on trust despite what has happened and dealing with breaches of trust on an individual basis like you are doing! Kudos!


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## Drkfathr1 (Mar 19, 2009)

billd91 said:


> Well, put up your address. We'll start up the rotation here and I'm sure we can have someone staking out your place and stalking you by dinner time.




Shhhhhhhh. I'm there now. Someone come releave me around 5:00 p.m.


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## megamania (Mar 19, 2009)

Piratecat said:


> Just so folks know, we'll be un-stickying and possibly closing this thread fairly soon.




Though I feel no closure has occured for me I agree for the betterment of everyone that this one needs to be closed soon.


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## Relique du Madde (Mar 20, 2009)

Rel said:


> I dunno.  If I was you, I'd keep an eye on me.




*Looks at his username*

OH SNAP!


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## Piratecat (Mar 20, 2009)

I think it's time to slide this closed, and move on. Thank you to everyone who commented and expressed their feelings. Feel free to email or PM me if any questions arise.


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