# Ready action gamebreaking situations



## Madeiner (Mar 26, 2010)

Hi there.

I am a Dnd 3.5 (now pathfinder) DM with a few years of experience.
Recently, i had a PC try to use a readied action in strange manners, so i made some tests and found out many ways a 1v1 encounter can be broken using initiative.

Note this i know there many "munchkiny" methods for doing this, but i'm talking about really simple fights, nothing complicated or powergame-y
I found similar threads but they were based on large creatures with longspear, or partial charges, while i want to go more basic here.

Ok, so we have fighter A and fighter B, both armed with longswords, humans, and there a 20 ft space between them.

A wins initiative so goes first. He readies an action: "attack B and take a 5ft step away" with trigger  "as soon as he tries to attack me". Pretty standard

B charges (or moves towards) A, begins his attack.
A interrupts B, makes his attack and makes a step away and end his turn.
B continues, but cannot attack A because he is out of range, and has already begun his attack action, which is effectively wasted.

Next turn, they are adjacent
A can ready "i attack and 5ft step away" with trigger "he starts to attack me". Once B starts to attack, A is no longer in range, and B has already declared he was attacking.

There are many other situations involved (ready to run away when attacked, ready to 5ft step and attack spellcaster, etc) but i think solving this one will solve them all.

How would you deal with this situation?
Frankly, the best way i can see is to rule that the attacks are "concurrent" so both get the attacks, but this would complicate things even more "i ready, i attack, then you attack, then i continue with my readied 5ft step and then you continue"


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## Nimloth (Mar 26, 2010)

B steps forward 5' and readies an action, "I attack him when he attacks me".


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## BENINHB (Mar 26, 2010)

"B charges (or moves towards) A, begins his attack.
A interrupts B, makes his attack and makes a step away and end his turn.
B continues, but cannot attack A because he is out of range, and has already begun his attack action, which is effectively wasted."



if we have the same reach and i can touch you that means you can touch me. I say both attacks land and fighter A 5ft steps away after, you can't be in range to hit and out of range for your opponents hit at the same time in melee without a reach weapon.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Mar 26, 2010)

Yeah, OP.  Your trick only works if B has a greater reach, otherwise I don't see how a 5 ft step is enough to ruin A's attack.  Even if it were...just don't charge.  Have A take a normal move action towards B.  B interrupts, does his little attack and step, then (since he interrupted A's action and thus it is still the move action) move towards B again.  The movement you make with your move action can be whatever disjointefdly zig-zaggy pattern you want.  So, finish the move next to A, and use your attack action.

Not sure of that many truly abusive ready action tricks.
Readying to attack a caster if you started off in melee insteado f attacking right away might be useful.  Because then you can 5 ft step if he tries ot do that ot back off, and disrupt his spell.
Readying so as to cast Mass Energy Resistance (whatever energy type the dragon uses) to interrupt a dragon's breath weapon attack is often a good trade action-wise.  Why ready?  I'm assuming a non-core game, where the dragon can change the energy type of his breath weapon, and you can't just go by color coding.
I also find it handy sometimes if I win initiative in a duel to ready a move action to move away from the opponent as he moves towards me, such that I keep 5 ft out of reach.  Then, by readying rules, my initiative count is set to occur just before his.  His attack action is likely wasted, especially if it was a charge.  My turn!  5 ft step in and full attack.  (This is in cases of foes with equal reach, of course)

None of those are very overpowered.  Just good.


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## Madeiner (Mar 26, 2010)

Nimloth said:


> B steps forward 5' and readies an action, "I attack him when he attacks me".




I am assuming you are referring to when they are adjacent (since the first time B gets to do anything, he is adjacent to A).

B cannot ready this action because A is adjacent, so no step forward.


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## Madeiner (Mar 26, 2010)

StreamOfTheSky said:


> I also find it handy sometimes if I win initiative in a duel to ready a move action to move away from the opponent as he moves towards me, such that I keep 5 ft out of reach.  Then, by readying rules, my initiative count is set to occur just before his.  His attack action is likely wasted, especially if it was a charge.  My turn!  5 ft step in and full attack.  (This is in cases of foes with equal reach, of course)




This is ok, not gamebreaking. However, you could do better by readying against his "attack" not against his "move", so that by the time he attacks, you interrupt and step away, and get a free extra attack while he gets none. And this, since it can be done each turn, IS gamebreaking.

And the thing is, by RAW, you can do this. My players dont like when i "improvise", so i'd like a clear new rule to solve this problem, which is even worse then dealing with reach.

So far, BENINHB's solution seems the best one.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Mar 26, 2010)

Madeiner said:


> This is ok, not gamebreaking. However, you could do better by readying against his "attack" not against his "move", so that by the time he attacks, you interrupt and step away, and get a free extra attack while he gets none. And this, since it can be done each turn, IS gamebreaking.
> 
> And the thing is, by RAW, you can do this. My players dont like when i "improvise", so i'd like a clear new rule to solve this problem, which is even worse then dealing with reach.
> 
> So far, BENINHB's solution seems the best one.




Yes, it works just as well if you ready against the attack itself.  I don't see it as game breaking, though.  You can keep yourself from being attacked if you persist in doing the trick (of course, the other guy will catch on and possibly try other tactics, like throwing clubs at you), but then you're also not hurting him.  You're basically just running around like a little...witch... doing everything you can to avoid the fight.

If you use the tactic as I laid it out, you're trading the benefit of striking first since you won initative (and being subjected to a full attack if you don't drop the foe) to striking first and getting to make a full attack in the process.  Defenitely a better deal ,which is why i labeled it a good tactic.  But outside of a 1 on 1 duel, you're still delaying your turn which isn't so great when there's several other people on each side now acting before you potentially.  And this is all assuming someone does try to approach you for melee.  If they hang back and shoot ranged weapons or whatever, you completely wasted your turn.
So it's situationally very strong, but even then, not game breaking.


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## Madeiner (Mar 26, 2010)

StreamOfTheSky said:


> You can keep yourself from being attacked if you persist in doing the trick (of course, the other guy will catch on and possibly try other tactics, like throwing clubs at you), but then you're also not hurting him.




The thing is, this is perfectly fine. It's when you ready to "attack and move 5ft", instead of only moving away, that things go bad.
There's nothing in the rules preventing to attack in response to his attack (and you go first, because you readied) and then stepping away, effectively negating the other an opportunity to strike.


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## Nimloth (Mar 26, 2010)

Madeiner said:


> I am assuming you are referring to when they are adjacent (since the first time B gets to do anything, he is adjacent to A).
> 
> B cannot ready this action because A is adjacent, so no step forward.




A wins initiative so goes first. He readies an action: "attack B and take a 5ft step away" with trigger "as soon as he tries to attack me". Pretty standard

B charges (or moves towards) A, begins his attack.
A interrupts B, makes his attack and makes a step away and end his turn.
B continues, but cannot attack A because he is out of range, and has already begun his attack action, which is effectively wasted.

A  readies an action: "attack B and take a 5ft step away" with trigger "as soon as he tries to attack me". 

Now; B steps forward 5' and readies an action, "I attack him when he attacks me".


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## Dandu (Mar 26, 2010)

Really, this is the sort of thing that's gamebreaking now?


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## Vegepygmy (Mar 27, 2010)

Madeiner said:


> How would you deal with this situation?



If my opponent expects me to zig, that's when I zag.

Remember, if B does anything _other than_ attack A (and with a 5-foot reach melee weapon at that), then A's turn is _completely wasted_. So that's what B should do.

And as others have pointed out, all B really has to do is ready his own action to interrupt A's attack, and we have a Mexican standoff. Who's going to blink first?

But as DM, I would simply allow B to finish his move action before making his attack. D&D combat rounds are intended to be abstract, with actions occuring simultaneously even though they are _resolved_ sequentially.


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## Man in the Funny Hat (Mar 27, 2010)

A wins intiative, readies attack against B when B attempts attack.
B moves next to A to attack.
A's readied action interrupts B's turn.
A attacks then takes 5' step.
B's turn RESUMES.

If B has movement remaining he simply moves the further 5' and then attacks.  If B's normal movement cannot get him the further 5' to be adjacent to A then B can change his mind and do ANYTHING else he could normally attempt to do including the decision to charge instead of limit himself to normal movement.  You do not have to DECLARE actions at the start of your turn and even if you do you are not obligated to do only what you declared.  Even if you disagree and insist that isn't true, B would only lose his attack upon A for that turn.  Next turn B's normal movement ensures that A's little trick no longer works since A is limited to only a 5' step.  In fact, attempting it again on the second turn could ONLY place A 5' away from B, at which point B takes his own 5' step and then gets a Full Attack Action against A.

I don't see how it can be a perpetual advantage unless B's maximum movement is only 5' in the first place.


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## Madeiner (Mar 27, 2010)

Man in the Funny Hat said:


> A wins intiative, readies attack against B when B attempts attack.
> B moves next to A to attack.
> A's readied action interrupts B's turn.
> A attacks then takes 5' step.
> ...




He cannot decide to charge, because A interrupted B based up the fact that B ATTACKED. And if B attacked, then he can only continue with the attack, no more moves! (you need spring attack for this). The same happens in round 2. The key here is the ready trigger: when B attacks.

When B attacks, it means he has declared to attack (and he has already moved). Once he gets interrupted, he can't say, "no wait, i changed my mind, i no longer attack, i wanna first move another 5 ft". Because A's readied action has already happened BECAUSE he was attacking, an action that would not have happened otherwise.



> Next turn B's normal movement ensures that A's little trick no longer works since A is limited to only a 5' step. In fact, attempting it again on the second turn could ONLY place A 5' away from B, at which point B takes his own 5' step and then gets a Full Attack Action against A.




Nope; as i see it, on the second turn, they start 5 ft away from each other. A readies again, and if B moves 5ft and attemps to attack... interrupt, readied action, A moves away 5 ft. B cannot say "no, i dont attack". He already said he would. So he actually attacks an empty square and then can move, but this accomplishes nothing.

B could maybe try to charge A, because you dont declare where you charge, just that you do. So, after he got interrupted, he could continue the charge "a little further"...except B needs 10 feet to charge, and he starts his turn only 5ft away from A, so charging is an illegal action for him in the first place.

Or B could ready on his own and try to outsmart A... but i really don't see an orc with 6 int trying to outsmart anyone. And this would mean every one on one is solely decided by intelligence... which i dont think it's true.

If B is an orc with 6 int but 15 class levels, he would get defeated by A, a little 5th level fighter, because the fifth level fighter is playing with the rules, and again, this isn't very credible at all.


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## frankthedm (Mar 27, 2010)

> However, you could do better by readying against his "attack" not against his "move", so that by the time he attacks, you interrupt and step away, and get a free extra attack while he gets none. And this, since it can be done each turn, IS gamebreaking.



No, it is not. Tactics don't break the game. Make a ranged attack or move up to the other character and if that does not rigger the ready, take a ready of your own

Readies are noticeable [mentioned in the dmg for giving in game descriptions IIRC]. You may not know what the foe is waiting for but you can see the foe is waiting for something. Having to do some guesswork to monkeywrench a foe's tactics in a duel is not bad thing.

And if you have two characters just sit for more than a few rounds with readies and counter readies just waiting for the other, just call for an initiative reroll at a time you feel fitting to determine when one sees a lapse in the other's defence.


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## Shin Okada (Mar 27, 2010)

Well, why on earth B must charge on A when he can use ranged attack, spells or other magic abilities, or simply attack another character?

Or B can just stand still and use total defense till A comes to him and attack, if B does not have any reason to kill A fast.


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## irdeggman (Mar 27, 2010)

Madeiner said:


> He cannot decide to charge, because A interrupted B based up the fact that B ATTACKED. And if B attacked, then he can only continue with the attack, no more moves! (you need spring attack for this). The same happens in round 2. The key here is the ready trigger: when B attacks.
> 
> When B attacks, it means he has declared to attack (and he has already moved). Once he gets interrupted, he can't say, "no wait, i changed my mind, i no longer attack, i wanna first move another 5 ft". Because A's readied action has already happened BECAUSE he was attacking, an action that would not have happened otherwise.
> 
> ...




Not quite as I read it.

The ready action interupts but doesn't prevent the other action.

The attack is much like receiving an AoO while charging - you can keep on charging if you survive the attack.

SRD


> The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. *Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action.*




If the subsequent 5 ft step puts the character out of range (of his movement) then the attacker is incapable of completing his action.


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## Vegepygmy (Mar 27, 2010)

frankthedm said:


> And if you have two characters just sit for more than a few rounds with readies and counter readies just waiting for the other, just call for an initiative reroll at a time you feel fitting to determine when one sees a lapse in the other's defence.



An excellent point. If both characters effectively declare their intent to "wait the other out," they aren't actually in combat, and no order of initiative is needed.


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## Jack Simth (Mar 28, 2010)

Nimloth said:


> A wins initiative so goes first. He readies an action: "attack B and take a 5ft step away" with trigger "as soon as he tries to attack me". Pretty standard



Problem: You can only ready a single action.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Mar 28, 2010)

Jack Simth said:


> Problem: You can only ready a single action.




If you have not moved on your turn at all, you're allowed to take a 5 ft step as part of your readied action (assuming the readied action itself isn't moving).


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## Jack Simth (Mar 28, 2010)

StreamOfTheSky said:


> If you have not moved on your turn at all, you're allowed to take a 5 ft step as part of your readied action (assuming the readied action itself isn't moving).



... ah, it's an explicit exception to the only one action bit.  Okay.


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## BENINHB (Mar 28, 2010)

Ok this is off the top of my head but when i charge i usually declare the creature i am charging not the square I am attacking. For example, I charge fighter A, not I charge square G17.

So if i have remaining movement and I can still hit fighter A while moving in a straight line I would allow fighter B to finish his charge.

A round is a 6 second span of time with multiple things happening concurrently, it is only sequentially that they are resolved


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## irdeggman (Mar 28, 2010)

BENINHB said:


> Ok this is off the top of my head but when i charge i usually declare the creature i am charging not the square I am attacking. For example, I charge fighter A, not I charge square G17.




That is because of the charging rules.

From the Rules Compendium (pg 27)



> To charge, you must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and can move up to double your speed. *You must be able to reach the closest space from which you can attack the designated opponent*. This movement must occur before your attack. If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, is difficult terrain, or cntains a creature (not a helpless one), you can't charge. You can't charge if the ending space is occupied or blocked. Since you move to charge, you can't take a 5-fott step during the same turn. You provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for your movement.




The picture on the bottom of the page also contains additional information like:



> When charging, a character or creature moves up to double speed  (and at least 2 squares or 10 feet) along the shortest path to the closest space from which it can attack an enemy. If any line drawn between the character's starting space and the ending space passes through a square that slows or prevents movement, or contains an ally, the charge is not allowed.
> 
> . . .The character can't charge if it doesn't have line of sight to the enemy.




Basically all you have to do is state you are charging an opponent, the rest is determined by circumstances - it must be a straight line (barring modification by feats, class or racial abilities) and it must end at the point where you can first attack the target.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Mar 28, 2010)

irdeggman said:


> Basically all you have to do is state you are charging an opponent, the rest is determined by circumstances - it must be a straight line (barring modification by feats, class or racial abilities) and it must end at the point where you can first attack the target.




Well, I think it's perfectly fair that if the person you're charging moves during the charge (like with a readied action) such that the square which is the nearest straight line route to the target changes, to allow the charger to continue on in his straight line path (up to his movement limit) if he can still reach melee with the target.  Barring being addressed in the RC, this is never explictly spelled out in the rules, but seems perfectly reasonable and within intent to me (thus why I keep saying why I don't see how a 5ft step alone is enough to use the attack and step "abuse" if you have the same reach generally).


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## irdeggman (Mar 28, 2010)

StreamOfTheSky said:


> Well, I think it's perfectly fair that if the person you're charging moves during the charge (like with a readied action) such that the square which is the nearest straight line route to the target changes, to allow the charger to continue on in his straight line path (up to his movement limit) if he can still reach melee with the target.  Barring being addressed in the RC, this is never explictly spelled out in the rules, but seems perfectly reasonable and within intent to me (thus why I keep saying why I don't see how a 5ft step alone is enough to use the attack and step "abuse" if you have the same reach generally).




I agree and other rules that allow changing or specifying details, like while making a full attack you can attack anyone you threaten with any of your attacks, or how you don't have to declare what the specifics of the spell you are using are until you actually cast it - would lend credence to such an interpretation. That is merely declaring the action is not all inclusive of what happens.


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## azhrei_fje (Apr 1, 2010)

Dandu said:


> Really, this is the sort of thing that's gamebreaking now?



What makes it game breaking is that the GM forgot to tell the player, "You can't ready both a standard action AND a 5-foot step."

Silly GM.


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## Dandu (Apr 1, 2010)

azhrei_fje said:


> What makes it game breaking is that the GM forgot to tell the player, "You can't ready both a standard action AND a 5-foot step."
> 
> Silly GM.




I don't think so, Tim.



> *Readying an Action*
> 
> You can ready a standard  action, a move  action, or a free  action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the  conditions under which you will take it. Then, any time before your next  action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition.  The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the  triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you  interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so,  he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your  initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your  initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and  you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your  readied action.
> * You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if  you don’t otherwise move any distance during the round. *



*You can take a 5 ft step as part of the readied action.*

What prevents it from being gamebreaking is that the enemy continues his actions unless your readied action stops him from doing so, and just attacking someone doesn't necessarily satisfy that condition.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Apr 1, 2010)

azhrei_fje said:


> What makes it game breaking is that the GM forgot to tell the player, "You can't ready both a standard action AND a 5-foot step."
> 
> Silly GM.




Read the thread, please.  That IS allowed.

Special Initiative Actions :: d20srd.org

"You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don’t otherwise move any distance during the round."

EDIT: Bah, Dandu Ninja'd me.


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## Festivus (May 3, 2010)

I would probably let this work once for the player, then the next round (depending how smart B is), instead of an attack I might have B go for a different target, or ready an attack himself, or ranged attack if possible.

Since grapple, trip, etc are all considered "Special Attacks" I'd bet you would get an argument from the player in question that it was an attack (rightly so).  So yeah, round 2 I'd ready a trip when A gets in range and then let them try that trick.

A "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice..." sort of attitude.  And if you have intelligent creatures, perhaps word would start to spread of A's tactics and they would know prepare for it with focussed range fire and deal with it that way while the skirmishers sweep to the rear to take out the divine/arcane guys.


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## radira (Oct 25, 2015)

I know i am late for the party for like 5 years but i am replying for future reference, for people like me, who stumbled into this thread and wonders the answer for this situation.

quote from d20srd & d20pfsrd : You can take a 5-foot step before, _*during*_, or after your other actions in the round. 
emphasis mine.

So, you can't take a 5-foot during a charge but lets say fighter B moves adjacent to A, then takes a total defence std. action. A, thinking nasty again, readies the same attack and retreat, std. + misc. action  , but clever B has another thing in mind  ,  B starts a Full-round attack action, A interrupts and attacks, then retreats a step away, "not so quickly!" says B and simply takes a 5-foot misc. action _*during*_ her attack and continues hitting A. 
End of story, RAW as far as i know.

Sorry for necroing this just couldn't resist the urge.

Edited for typos & further clarification.


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## Bleys Icefalcon (Oct 28, 2015)

While understanding how to adjudicate what is written is very important, I believe, personally, there is a major point that is being missed.  If there is a fairly simple mechanic present that can make one of two equal creatures/characters so significantly superior - my favorite word this week: immortal, then that mechanic doesn't so much need to be understood.  It needs to be discarded or changed.  We aren't playing Magic: The Gathering here, where if you get that perfect draw you end the match of 2 turns.  There should be more to characters in 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 3.5, 4th and 5th than the advatange of their stats and the mechanics of their rules, especially if those rules can be tweaked in such a way to give a massive, and unintended advantage.


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## Man in the Funny Hat (Nov 4, 2015)

radira said:


> So, you can't take a 5-foot during a charge but lets say fighter B moves adjacent to A, then takes a total defence std. action. A, thinking nasty again, readies the same attack and retreat, std. + misc. action  , but clever B has another thing in mind  ,  B starts a Full-round attack action, A interrupts and attacks, then retreats a step away, "not so quickly!" says B and simply takes a 5-foot misc. action _*during*_ her attack and continues hitting A.
> End of story, RAW as far as i know.



Well... pretty much.  It's just that according to what you're saying there, if B moves adjacent to A and takes a total defense standard action, then it's A's turn.  It would be silly for A to READY an action with the intended result being an attack on B.  B is RIGHT THERE.  A should just attack him.  He doesn't need to wait for the next round when B is going to actually go full-attack.  Both accomplish the same thing - A attacking B before B's next attack.  Otherwise my original reply still holds:



Man in the Funny Hat said:


> A wins initiative, readies attack against B when B attempts attack.
> B moves next to A to attack.
> A's readied action interrupts B's turn.
> A attacks then takes 5' step.
> ...




The fear and confusion that people have always had about this sort of situation is they seem to think that a clever player can use these rules to continually attack and then step out of reach of an opponent rendering the opponent unable to counterattack by those same rules.  They think that after A takes a 5' step back out of reach that B is FORCED to stand idle, unable to take any effective action because he MUST do what he declared he was doing - which triggered A's readied action.  If B DOESN'T do that action, then A's readied action would never have been triggered - but by that same logic if B CANNOT do that action anymore because A is now out of reach and B can no longer close the remaining distance then A's readied action CANNOT be triggered because the intended attack never takes place.

Really, there's nothing that A does which prevents B from simply finishing what he started - moving next to A and attacking - and the SRD notes that the interrupted character simply then can resume what he started.  Only if B is out of movement to complete his action, or something else about what A did completely prevents B from acting is B going to be unable to act.  B can charge instead if he needs the extra movement.  He can throw something instead.  He can... attack a different target that he may be next to.  WHATEVER.  B is not FORCED to do only what he set out to do before A interrupted it, and do no more, no less, or anything OTHER than that initially intended action.  THAT's where it really falls apart.  Players want ALL the advantage of preemptive action in 3E, not a single disadvantage, and want immunity from common sense on top of it.  So arguments on this subject have nearly always taken the form of somebody wanting to twist the interpretations to have it all and looking for every ILLOGICAL reason for the rules to say he can get away with it.


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## The Crimson Binome (Nov 4, 2015)

radira said:


> quote from d20srd & d20pfsrd : You can take a 5-foot step before, _*during*_, or after your other actions in the round.
> emphasis mine.



I get what you're saying, but that doesn't mean you can retroactively _add_ the five-foot step to an action that's already been declared, before it's resolved. You _could_ declare you were attacking _while_ making a 5-foot step (though I can't imagine what good that would do you), but you couldn't say that you're attacking and then - halfway through resolving that - change your mind and decide to take a 5-foot step first.

This tactic is extremely limited in use, because it's foiled if your target does anything _other_ than the one thing you've declared as your trigger. It's not useful against anything that has a ranged attack, or reach, or any useful action that isn't just a melee attack. It's marginally useful in a duel against an automaton (mindless undead or constructs) that lacks reach, which is a fairly unlikely scenario.

I had to use this tactic once, and it was one of the reasons why I lost faith in Pathfinder. There was an adventure path where the only way forward involved placating an invincible foe (instantly hostile, incorporeal, touch attack reduces maximum HP permanently, recovers to full HP after 1d4 rounds) by searching a castle full of traps and monsters and other shenanigans for the one item that could let it rest.

If we hadn't worked out something like this in order to keep the monster engaged for hours of in-game time, or if it had been slightly smarter in knowing when to give up the fight (instead of being programmed to attack anyone with a holy symbol), it would have been an unbeatable encounter.


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## Man in the Funny Hat (Nov 4, 2015)

Saelorn said:


> I get what you're saying, but that doesn't mean you can retroactively _add_ the five-foot step to an action that's already been declared, before it's resolved.



Yeah, actually it does.  3E is not 1E.  There is no "declaration" phase where you state what you are intending to do and then are committed to doing that which you declared, only that, and nothing but that.  You take your actions as they come, as you decide to do, at any instant on your turn.  Readied actions of others INTERRUPT your own actions and prevent them from actually taking place.  Once it becomes your turn again you can do WHATEVER you like - finish what you started or do something else.  If you took movement prior to having your actions interrupted then that movement is still used but nothing else you INTENDED to do has actually happened and just as on any other regular turn you can change your mind about what you then want to do (insofar as you are able to do it) or simply finish what you started.  Otherwise you don't first attack and THEN the readied action occurs - the readied action occurs first and then you're left to do whatever you are still capable of doing.

Assume you have two attacks.  You take a 5' step to be adjacent to a target.  You can use full attacks.  You use your first attack on the target.  If you fail to kill him you can still use your second attack to finish him off.  If you DO hit and kill him then you can still use your second attack by... throwing a dagger at someone.  Even if you initially intended to full attack the target you stepped next to YOU CAN CHANGE YOUR MIND in the middle of attacking him, use one melee attack upon your first target and then having changed your mind, even though you did not kill that first target, turn and throw a dagger at a completely different target. [Taking the AoO in doing so, of course.]

Assume you have two attacks and are already adjacent to a target.  He's acting first and for whatever reasons decides to ready an attack against you IF you attack him (nevermind the fact that this makes little sense over simply attacking you outright, we'll just take it as read that he has his reasons for it).  Your turn arrives and you decide to full-attack him.  Your action is interrupted.  You haven't actually done ANYTHING yet.  It becomes his turn.  He takes his attack against you and adds a 5' step.  He didn't even have to declare that he would take a 5' step.  He can add that spontaneously.  Now it is your turn again.  DO WHATEVER YOU LIKE.  You aren't obligated to follow him and attack even though that is what triggered his readied action.  You haven't moved - you haven't actually done ANYTHING yet.  Finish what you started if you like and just add your own initial 5' step to move up next to him before attacking.  Change your mind and run 15' over to a different target if you like.  Don't attack at all and simply dig out a potion to drink if that's what you think is best given your IMMEDIATE circumstances.  You ARE NOT obligated to attack even though that's what you initially stated you were going to do.  That intended action was interrupted and prevented from taking place yet.  Now you can do it or not do it.  It doesn't matter.

All this is why the idea of being able to perpetually remain out of reach with a 5' step, while also perpetually being able to take your own melee attacks against an enemy is a non-starter.  It was never intended to be possible.  It's been repeatedly shown to be unworkable (short of, say, having a weapon with 10' reach, and even then isn't perpetually useable).  It's been officially ruled not to work.  It simply survives as a possibility because people still get very confused reading the rules about readied actions and the 5' step, or simply continue to insist on reading into it what they WANT to read into it.



> This tactic is extremely limited in use, because it's foiled if your target does anything _other_ than the one thing you've declared as your trigger.



This is also very true.  The abuse of this tactic is facilitated by DM's who allow players to state extraordinarily vague triggers for multiple and complex combinations of actions.  "If it looks like he's going to run over and attack me then my readied attack will be against him before he even moves, but if he doesn't move my way then I'll attack that other guy."    If you run that part of it reasonably and disallow those kind of "readied actions" and triggers then players will eventually realize that the Ready action does only have a limited use - but it IS still very useful in those limited circumstances.

Again, it's mostly players who want all of the advantages, will tolerate no disadvantages, and who can bully a DM into being told what the rules are even if it means disregarding sensible game practices and common sense (or a DM who doesn't grok the rules any better than the players and/or doesn't understand the reasons why there's a DM at all).


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## The Crimson Binome (Nov 4, 2015)

Man in the Funny Hat said:


> Yeah, actually it does.  3E is not 1E.  There is no "declaration" phase where you state what you are intending to do and then are committed to doing that which you declared, only that, and nothing but that.  You take your actions as they come, as you decide to do, at any instant on your turn.  Readied actions of others INTERRUPT your own actions and prevent them from actually taking place.  Once it becomes your turn again you can do WHATEVER you like - finish what you started or do something else.  If you took movement prior to having your actions interrupted then that movement is still used but nothing else you INTENDED to do has actually happened and just as on any other regular turn you can change your mind about what you then want to do (insofar as you are able to do it) or simply finish what you started.  Otherwise you don't first attack and THEN the readied action occurs - the readied action occurs first and then you're left to do whatever you are still capable of doing.



This is the point upon which you are mistaken, which renders everything else you would say moot.



			
				pfsrd said:
			
		

> You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action.



If possible, the triggering action continues after the readied action. There's nothing in there about choosing a new action if the triggering action is _not_ possible, or changing your mind about what you're going to do based on the outcome of a readied action. Much as a readied action is foiled if the trigger does not occur, the triggered action is simply foiled if it becomes no longer possible based on the outcome of a readied action. This is a core aspect of the combat engine, underlying such interactions as "closing a door to block line of sight" and "diving behind cover to avoid being shot".

Otherwise, there would be no point in readying an action to interrupt a spell being cast, since the spellcaster would always have the choice of doing something else once damage had made spellcasting impossible.


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## radira (Nov 6, 2015)

Saelorn said:
			
		

> Otherwise, there would be no point in readying an action to interrupt a  spell being cast, since the spellcaster would always have the choice of  doing something else once damage had made spellcasting  impossible.




This.

Readied action is actually the broadest action defined in whole d20 and  it indeed interrupts actions in the middle, if you choose to do so  except some few isolated instances of heavy handed balance (ex. trip  locking with AoO). Since its such a special type of action, it is  actually very prone to abuse. Lets say taken actions in d20 can be  changed if something went south, which action type will you be able to  use after you change them? since you already used your charge action as a  Full Round action, will you take it as a move action because you just  moved? Not to mention charges should be in a straight line so you can't  bend it to another direction to strike someone else.



			
				Man in the Funny Hat said:
			
		

> It would be silly for A to READY an action with the intended result being an attack on B



 Don't think so, the intended action of A was to continually hit B  without getting hit in return. In my scenario sure he can hit B with a  full but OP's case was not that thus it's irrelevant and even if he  choose to do so he earned it with its higher initiative roll anyways, he  could've just charged in the first round, thats not the planned gain.



			
				Man in the Funny Hat said:
			
		

> If B DOESN'T do that action, then A's readied action would never  have  been triggered - but by that same logic if B CANNOT do that action   anymore because A is now out of reach and B can no longer close the   remaining distance then A's readied action CANNOT be triggered because   the intended attack never takes place





You're right, logically ofc, but we have clear depiction of first case  since that is the ready action by definition and it is it's intended  use, but the latter case is not taking place. B moved, B attacked _check_, A didn't declare her ready as "when B damages me".  This is a game and games have mechanical limitations. I  just wanted to clarify that d20 have a solution for the mentioned case  within its game rules.
​ 


			
				Saelorn said:
			
		

> You _could_ declare you were attacking _while_ making a 5-foot step




Hmm i get what you say, it may not be a solid case as i thought in the  first place, but i think you're misinterpreting the _during_ part. Consider this, game wise its under misc actions, if you  check "action types" in d20srd or pfsrd, you'll find nothing called misc type action under "action types" so we're clear it has its own set of  rules to play, very unlike other structered types of actions and it has  no mention of how much time it takes to do one. This leds to confusion, can you do it while doing other declared stuff since its not stated  how much time it takes? You can also take immediate actions while you're  doing other actions without declaring them outright and check d20srd,  Table: Miscellaneous Actions, you will find 5-ft step is under _*no action*_ part of misc actions.

 In any case , you can declare every single attack  action like this : Attack the enemy while taking  5-ft step _towards _it (in this case A or just pointing  her grid). If she moves, you can move with her, if she does not, then it  would be like trying to move towards a wall, it would fail since the wall is  not moving. 

Now i don't want to open a new topic about taking a  move action towards a solid wall since it is prohibited to take a move  to a grid which is impassable or occupied when you declared it in the  first place but when you're GM, interpreting the actions, visualizing to players the 6 seconds and one of the said players  insists on doing this, you will not reply "you cannot take this action"  rather you say "you tried (ability drain : int) but failed  miserably". If this applies, you can automatically assume every attack action is going to be taken this way from now on and no need to mention it like you don't mention you were attacking and  also breathe a lot in the middle while flexing your muscles  to  raise your  favored weapon in your left hand, vertically, to bash it  on  your foes  head.

Even declaring beforehand like you mentioned works, consider this: A declares where to take 5-ft while readying, before B, so if B should declare where to 5-ft, A should too. B can easily see (also hear if A is a player, Metagaming) and declare a full attack _while_ making a 5-foot towards A, since B knew A was going to backoff. Think of it like bracing against charge, it is also a ready action. If charger wouldn't knew the enemy has a spear in his hand and bracing, bracing would be something that everyone uses instead of how it is now .

Edit : Also this is not easily foiled as you suggest, it really limits  the melee only fighter type plus I can think of countless encounters that  can be ruined by this since you are FORCED to take another action, this can be distruptive as being forced to take a specific action.

Sorry for the wall of text and my english!


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## The Crimson Binome (Nov 6, 2015)

radira said:


> Hmm i get what you say, it may not be a solid case as i thought in the  first place, but i think you're misinterpreting the _during_ part.



Yeah, that part does seem really weird. My only guess is that the intent is for you to split up a full-attack action, since you have to be in one position or another when you commit an action, and that's the only single action I can think of which has discrete steps but doesn't already include movement.


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## radira (Nov 6, 2015)

Yeah, full round attack is the only one i can think of too , if your interpretion is the right one.

Now to think more about it though , it may depend how you play too, for ex. in my games we call actions seperately, whenever we can , like : i decide to full round attack, i roll one of my attacks, depending on the outcome, i decide to continue or hit the other adjacent guy, holding true to my decleration of full attack, then if i want i take 5 foot to somewhere. This opposes your declaring whole round approach, i dont declare say, full attack 1st guy then 2nd guy then 5 ft step back all together.

Edit : playing this way kinda opens up the possibility of calling for a 5ft when you can.


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## smittythesmith (Mar 2, 2017)

I don't think you can ready two actions at a time. You can ready a free action to 5' step when someone approaches you, but you can't ready an attack *and* a 5' step.


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## Man in the Funny Hat (Mar 3, 2017)

smittythesmith said:


> I don't think you can ready two actions at a time. You can ready a free action to 5' step when someone approaches you, but you can't ready an attack *and* a 5' step.



You are allowed to take a 5' step as part of your readied action, but only if you don't otherwise move in the round.  But otherwise, yeah.  Ready only enables ONE action to be readied, not a sequence of multiple actions.  That's one of the things that limits its usefulness and one of the things about it that players thus tend to overlook.


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## Man in the Funny Hat (Mar 3, 2017)

Saelorn said:


> Otherwise, there would be no point in readying an action to interrupt a spell being cast, since the spellcaster would always have the choice of doing something else once damage had made spellcasting impossible.



Thus, spellcasters DO have the option of choosing to do something else once damage makes spellcasting impossible.  Just as ANY character has the option of choosing to do something else once a readied action interrupts their turn and makes what they were GOING to do impossible.  A fighter interrupted by a readied action who is then unable to melee can instead choose to missile, drink a potion, close again and THEN attack if the target moved beyond reach, etc. etc. etc..  Again, there is no declaration in 3E and as long as you still have actions to use then you are free to use them.  Some actions may be rendered moot or made impossible by readied actions, but you can then still use your actions for WHATEVER you ARE still capable of doing.


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## The Crimson Binome (Mar 3, 2017)

Man in the Funny Hat said:


> Thus, spellcasters DO have the option of choosing to do something else once damage makes spellcasting impossible.  Just as ANY character has the option of choosing to do something else once a readied action interrupts their turn and makes what they were GOING to do impossible.



That is simply not how the rules work.







			
				d20srd said:
			
		

> *Readying an Action*
> 
> You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action.



The interrupted party can continue their action _if_ they are able to do so - if you deal damage to try and disrupt a spell being cast, but they make their concentration check to continue casting, for example - but they _don't_ get another chance to declare a _new_ action. An action which fails, whether through an insufficient check result or a readied action or any other reason, is simply expended to zero effect.


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