# What's so wrong with Hulking Hurler?



## Mistwell (Feb 18, 2005)

I've seen a lot of folks mention that the hulking hurler is overpowered, but can find no explanation of why they think that.
What's so wrong with this PRC?


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## Jdvn1 (Feb 18, 2005)

Have you seen the Hulking Hurler build that could destroy the Earth?

... I mean literally.


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## Crothian (Feb 18, 2005)

By itself nothing.  But adding a few other options bt other non core books and then bribing the DM to let it happen one can build a powerful character it seems.


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## JoeGKushner (Feb 18, 2005)

Dude, first off. He's like Hulking.

Second off, he's hurling.

You can have one or the other but the devisating combination of H&H is superior even to C&C. I mean, it even comes after it in the alphabet!


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## Philip (Feb 18, 2005)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> I've seen a lot of folks mention that the hulking hurler is overpowered, but can find no explanation of why they think that.
> What's so wrong with this PRC?




Its not overpowered per se, but it can be broken by the right combination of feats, prestige classes and items, the hurler can lift items weighing thousands upon thousands of pounds, enabling him to dish out thousands of d6's of damage with his Really Throw Anything ability.


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## Sejs (Feb 18, 2005)

Math is what's wrong with the hulking hurler.


Damn you, math!


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## Shin Okada (Feb 18, 2005)

Hulking Hurler can truly throw anything, provided the weight is within his light load. For example, a Mountain Giant/Hulking Huler 3 with strength of 52 can throw anything up to (173 x 64 x 16 =) 177,152 lbs. (that is about 80 ton)  Now, see table 4-7"Improvised Weapon Table" in CW. this 80 ton rock inflicts 888d6 damages when thrown. If the thing is happen to be sharp, it inflicts 1,774d6 damages. That is 6,209 damages in average.


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## Jdvn1 (Feb 18, 2005)

Sejs said:
			
		

> Math is what's wrong with the hulking hurler.
> 
> 
> Damn you, math!



 

Too true.


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## Shuffle (Feb 18, 2005)

Shin Okada said:
			
		

> Hulking Hurler can truly throw anything, provided the weight is within his light load. For example, a Mountain Giant/Hulking Huler 3 with strength of 52 can throw anything up to (173 x 64 x 16 =) 177,152 lbs. (that is about 80 ton)  Now, see table 4-7"Improvised Weapon Table" in CW. this 80 ton rock inflicts 888d6 damages when thrown. If the thing is happen to be sharp, it inflicts 1,774d6 damages. That is 6,209 damages in average.



 That is why some PrC's are really for DM use only....


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## GuardianLurker (Feb 18, 2005)

Here's why:

http://rpol.net/display.cgi?gi=668&gn=The+Exodus:+Epic+DnD+3.5&threadnum=208&date=1069788918


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Feb 18, 2005)

GuardianLurker said:
			
		

> Here's why:
> 
> http://rpol.net/display.cgi?gi=668&gn=The+Exodus:+Epic+DnD+3.5&threadnum=208&date=1069788918



 But that doesn't prove anything other than people playing non-standard races with non-standard combinations can have a lot of power once off(how do you carry TWO boulders that size?). 

How many PC races are Large sized?


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## Mistwell (Feb 18, 2005)

I did find this on the Wizards board:



> Stop me if I'm wrong.
> 
> Half ogre: Large size, +6 strength, -2 int, -2 chr, +1 LA
> 
> ...




It also seemed to get into the millions of points of damage by page 3.  But really, all of that is silly.  No DM would let you get anywhere near that, unless it was a joke game.

It seems to me that, played realistically, in an actual long term game as a real character, the Hulking Hurler is about balanced with other PRCs.


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## Shin Okada (Feb 18, 2005)

The biggest mistake is that improvised weapon damage table. Weapons should inflict damages based on their size category, not on weight.


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## Someone (Feb 18, 2005)

Yes, the problem lies in the improvised weapon rules, since carrying capacity increases geometrically (x4 for each +10 Str) while normal bonus to damage linearly (+5 for each +10 bonus), and imprvised weapons deal damage based on weight. 

Really, I wonder why not more PCs take Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Chest) since it deals 3d6 damage and weights only 100 lbs. And at medium levels a lot of fighter with good strenght are able to carry the wagon: 5d6 damage. There should be a lot of hight level fighters mastering the art of wagon-fencing.


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## Endur (Feb 18, 2005)

The PRC writers forgot to add the 20d6 maximum damage rule for a thrown object.  If you make max damage 20d6, then nothing is wrong with it.



			
				Mistwell said:
			
		

> I've seen a lot of folks mention that the hulking hurler is overpowered, but can find no explanation of why they think that.
> What's so wrong with this PRC?


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## Kae'Yoss (Feb 18, 2005)

Shin Okada said:
			
		

> Hulking Hurler can truly throw anything, provided the weight is within his light load. For example, a Mountain Giant/Hulking Huler 3 with strength of 52 can throw anything up to (173 x 64 x 16 =) 177,152 lbs. (that is about 80 ton)




And that's what's wrong with the Hulking Hurler. Once those builds surpass the gods themselves with their ability scores ( mean, Str 52? Helloo?), it gets wacky. After all, this Mountain Giant has 30 hd and I think a hefty LA for +32 Str, +26 Con and Colossal size. This guy won't appear anywhere in a normal D&D game. 

Besides, how big will a 80-ton-rock be? It's nothing you just carry around, or find next to the road.

I can also create some wacky things, like Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon Wizard 100 and create an epic spell with insane amounts of damage. That doesn't mean the wizard class is overpowered.


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## Jdvn1 (Feb 18, 2005)

KaeYoss said:
			
		

> Besides, how big will a 80-ton-rock be? It's nothing you just carry around, or find next to the road.



No, you wont' find it next to the road, but if that's your speciality, you'll find one of:


> Lead weighs in at 712 pounds per cubic foot, so we need 373 cubic feet of lead to throw. As a sphere, that has a diameter of 8.932771693 feet.



Which is probably Large.

And that's for a Half-Orge, which is +1 LA.


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## Storyteller01 (Feb 18, 2005)

Unless you have a hidden supplier, your still hard pressed to find a 9' ball of lead (or have one made). A 9' ball of ANY metal could see better use for an army of people.


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## domino (Feb 18, 2005)

I wonder what the shrinking enhancment would do, for simplifying the math a bit.  You take a hulking hurler, make him only reasonably strong, and then shrink the ball down a little bit (to weaigh 1/16th the size, and 1/4000th the weight) giving him something about the size of a grapefruit.  At that point, you really only need maybe a 16 strength, to throw a 45 pound weight, that when thrown still blossoms into a nearly 900d6 rock.


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## Doctor Shaft (Feb 19, 2005)

Hulking Hurler is one of the PRCs people like to yap on and on about because they like to have a discussion about math.  Those numbers nerds!    

In reality, I think every single one of them, as well as many other people, realizes that the only thinking the Hulking Hurler needs to become "balanced" is a damage cap. It really makes no sense that a wizard can shoot magical, burning hot plasma from his finger tips, and be forced upon with a damage cap... and then the hulking hurler's damage simply multiplies (exponentially of course) because he picked up a bigger rock.  

HP isn't so supposed to go astronomically high either. So a hulking hurler, even with a 20d6 damage cap, can already basically kill an entire village of commoners and low level soldiers without effort. I think this properly represents D&D physics well enough, regardless if the giant throws the tip of a mountain at someone, or just a wagon sized boulder.  The rock is going to smash you just the same.

Just make sure you don't use the improvised weapons table, and base it on "size", and/or just throw the damage cap on, and don't let your players become Half-Dragon, Half-Giant, Beastslayer races, and Hulking Hurler won't ruin your game.


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## MoogleEmpMog (Feb 19, 2005)

Frankly, I doubt the stupid-powerful hulking hurler who can do 1000s of d6 of damage would ruin most games.

Combat-heavy games tend to involve lots of dungeon crawls, where the hurler probably can't go or, if he can, he can't throw.  Social games... well, with the invariable war hulk levels, the hurler won't be terrible productive there.  

It should have a damage cap of 20d6, same as basically everything else pre-Epic... which is technically a mechanics issue, not a class issue.  I can't help but wonder if the hurler and the improvised weapon tables weren't written by different designers at different times, and ne'er the two did meet.  Other than that, the hurler's not really a poorly designed class, but it's certainly one of more use to NPCs.


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## Sejs (Feb 19, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> And that's for a Half-Orge, which is +1 LA.




+2, now.  Updated in Races of Destiny.


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## Mad Mac (Feb 19, 2005)

You know, come to think of it, wasn't there a 20d6 cap on hitting people with heavy objects? At least in 3.0? I seem to remember some errata or ruling of the sort brought on by _True Telekinesis_ mischief with the psionics handbook.

  Even as a one-hit-wonder though, I could see the Hulking Hurler not being the dominant force he expected to be. Hitting people with huge rocks is not exactly an unbeatable tatic, especially when he has nothing to fall back on. Extreme long or short range encounters would be a huge hassle for him, as would fights that focused on groups rather than a single powerful monster.

  Or to put it another way, if you had a high-level group, and they picked up local legends of a giant who managed to kill a great dragon with a single hurled boulder, do you really think they wouldn't track down and mop the floor with the guy in short order?


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## Kae'Yoss (Feb 19, 2005)

Doctor Shaft said:
			
		

> Hulking Hurler is one of the PRCs people like to yap on and on about because they like to have a discussion about math.  Those numbers nerds!




With that, you are of course right. The problem is not that the d20 system is broken beyond repair, but that some poeple like to find one practical use for their math courses at the university by searching for stuff like this.


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## Ridley's Cohort (Feb 19, 2005)

It is not exactly a secret that the designers have a weak grasp of scaling when they put together their formulas.


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## Crothian (Feb 19, 2005)

Ridley's Cohort said:
			
		

> It is not exactly a secret that the designers have a weak grasp of scaling when they put together their formulas.





Or they never concern themselves with taking it to the extremes like other people want to.


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## Bryan898 (Feb 19, 2005)

I actually had a player try to use a big hulking hurler on me, though not quite 1000d6's.  I don't really restrict the players in their character making, though I do only allow certain books.  After the first quick "encounter", I subdued the 1/2 ogre fairly quickly with some Will save spells.... they're just lucky I didn't use Charm Monster     

Seriously though, the Hulking Hurler class isn't broken if you don't try to break it.  I had a centaur (SS) that threw gargantuan javelins using the class, and he wasn't horribly overpowered, though his damage was on the high end.


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## Crothian (Feb 19, 2005)

Bryan898 said:
			
		

> Seriously though, the Hulking Hurler class isn't broken if you don't try to break it.




Now there's an interesting thought and very very true.  Applies to all things in the game really.


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## Impeesa (Feb 19, 2005)

Mad Mac said:
			
		

> You know, come to think of it, wasn't there a 20d6 cap on hitting people with heavy objects? At least in 3.0? I seem to remember some errata or ruling of the sort brought on by _True Telekinesis_ mischief with the psionics handbook.
> 
> Even as a one-hit-wonder though, I could see the Hulking Hurler not being the dominant force he expected to be. Hitting people with huge rocks is not exactly an unbeatable tatic, especially when he has nothing to fall back on. Extreme long or short range encounters would be a huge hassle for him, as would fights that focused on groups rather than a single powerful monster.
> 
> Or to put it another way, if you had a high-level group, and they picked up local legends of a giant who managed to kill a great dragon with a single hurled boulder, do you really think they wouldn't track down and mop the floor with the guy in short order?




The 20d6 cap applies to natural hazards, like falling. 

Also, it's been well-discussed that the character is incredibly ill-suited for any normal game. He's got a huge glass jaw, but he can deal absolutely ridiculous amounts of damage with that one throw - the toughest fights come down to a solitaire initiative roll, in the worst case scenario.

Even as a "DM-only" class, it's easy to accidentally crank the damge up to the level of causing a TPK if the party can't close in fast enough.

--Impeesa--


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## Doctor Shaft (Feb 20, 2005)

A Hulking Hurler can easily TPK... but only if you give said Hurler some kind of obscene advantage. 

A Hulking Hurler is specialized to do one thing, and one thing only. Throw big stuff at people.  As such, it should be nearly impossible for said character to suddenly adapt the skills of a silent rogue bandit, have the ability to trap and surprise said party of PC's in some area where his rocks just happen to be sitting at the ready, and then produce a situation where said character's can't find a spot on said map to take cover, or quickly close the difference.

So long as you don't create an encounter with the following sentence: "And then a hulking hurler manages to catch you completely off guard, in an empty valley, with no cover... but oh, he's carrying around 50 ton rocks so we're talking maximum damage... and you didn't notice said objects as you were travelling." Then it shouldn't be so bad. 

As another poster said.  The class isn't so bad if you don't deliberate attempt to exploit the system for all it's worth.  Rules are only there to justify actions. Some rules are shaky, and can be used to easily justify the wrong things.


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## shilsen (Feb 20, 2005)

Found a nice feat for the Hulking Hurler in Complete Adventurer: Brutal Throw, which lets you use your Str modifier instead of Dex to attack with thrown weapons


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## (Psi)SeveredHead (Feb 21, 2005)

Shuffle said:
			
		

> That is why some PrC's are really for DM use only....




As a frequent DM, I have to say I disagree with this statement. It's not OK for a DM to be munchkin... unless his players are. And if the DM is going to throw this kind of cheese at his players, his players should have access to this kind of cheese, too.


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## Saeviomagy (Feb 21, 2005)

Doctor Shaft said:
			
		

> A Hulking Hurler can easily TPK... but only if you give said Hurler some kind of obscene advantage.




Wow. I guess in your games, anything that's not totally insane will just be a total walkthrough then, huh?

I'm incubus. My original build is the one that causes multiple thousands of d6 damage. To do so, it requires:

One feat
None of it's skill points
Almost none of it's equipment allowance

So making one with an obscene hide and move silent score would not be difficult. Or one with an item to let it teleport. Etc etc.

In short - anywhere in any adventure where the party are challenged by a fighter, you could slot in the basic hulking hurler build, and replace that puny weapon damage with something truly obscene.

For reference, I think you can make an equivalent character at CR 7 that does 13d6 (plus 20 or so) a shot. I don't think that's reasonable for a CR 7 encounter. This is not something that a 20d6 damage cap will fix

Finally - it's not the classes, or the race that are the problem. It's CW's insane rules for damage from large objects. Take away hulking hurler, and the character just has to stick to melee to do his insane damage. Take away war hulk, and the character just has to find other ways to boost his carry capacity, and there are plenty of them.

Change CW's rules to say "an object of size X does damage Y, regardless of weight" and the problem just goes away. Stats for improvised weapons already exist. Just read the entry for "club". 1d6 damage, 10ft range, zero price. Now we just need approximate sizes for large, huge, gargantuan and colossal clubs. At a guess, a wagon probably counts as a colossal club. I think that 3d6+1d8+sizeable strength bonus is appropriate for hitting someone with a wagon, don't you?


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## Devilkiller (Feb 21, 2005)

I currently have a character who uses improvised weapons.  He uses some feat from Dragonlance to only take a -2 to attacks with improvised weapons instead of a -4. He'll pick up this and that from time to time, but mostly he uses an anchor on a chain. It does 2d6 damage and is otherwise like a spiked chain. It is actually mechanically inferior to a regular spiked chain with Power Attack in most situations, but it is a freaking anchor, and that's just too fun.

Anyhow, my point is really about the size of the anchor. My anchor is 50 lbs. That is theoretically large enough to anchor a ship up to 50 feet long, and it fits within the range that the chart in CW lists as a two-handed weapon for medium sized creatures. Here's my point; CW says that object weighing between 2 and 10 pounds are one-handed weapons for medium characters. It also says that objects weighing between 11 and 50 pounds are two-handed weapons for medium size characters. It then adds that you should halve these numbers for every size below medium and double it for every size above. My conclusion is that an object of 22-100 pounds would be a two-handed weapon for a large creature. Since you can't use any weapon larger than a two-handed weapon this would mean that a large creature can only use a weapon weighing up to 100 pounds. A huge creature could only use a weapon weighing up to 200 pounds. Nobody could use something that does a zillion d6, and the world would be safe from hulking hurler builds.

IMO, the Hullking Hurler's "Really Throw Anything" ability allows him to throw improvised weapons and throw them at a -2 instead of a -4 to hit. This should be a fun but not world beating ability. It shouldn't trump the existing rules for weapons which say you have to use weapons sized for you or somebody close to your size.


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## Saeviomagy (Feb 21, 2005)

Devilkiller said:
			
		

> IMO, the Hullking Hurler's "Really Throw Anything" ability allows him to throw improvised weapons and throw them at a -2 instead of a -4 to hit. This should be a fun but not world beating ability. It shouldn't trump the existing rules for weapons which say you have to use weapons sized for you or somebody close to your size.



Yeah, but then theres a really, really throw anything ability which lets you use a weapon up to two size categories above your own, and up to your heavy (I think... maybe medium) load limit.

So you're wrong.


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## Bill Muench (Feb 21, 2005)

GuardianLurker said:
			
		

> Here's why:
> 
> http://rpol.net/display.cgi?gi=668&gn=The+Exodus:+Epic+DnD+3.5&threadnum=208&date=1069788918





Ah, good old Urldred... He was fun to write up. I still use him as an example when people ask "why do you say Hulking Hurler is broken?" "Well, let me send you a link..."

Bill
erstwhile Kakita Goichi and Urldred Mountainthrower.


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## Fieari (Feb 22, 2005)

The 20d6 cap is for falling DISTANCE.  Weight damage is not capped.  IIRC*, it's 1d6 per 200lbs dropped at least 10 feet.  Dropped 200 feet, that's 20d6.  Dropped 400 feet, that's STILL 20d6.  For an object that weighs 4000 lbs, that's 20d6 if dropped 10 feet.  Dropped 200 feet, that's 40d6.  Dropped 400 feet, still 40d6.  For an object that weighs 8000 lbs, that's 40d6 dropped 10 feet, 60d6 dropped 200 feet, and still 60d6 if dropped 400 feet.

See how it works?  Terminal velocity caps falling damage, but mass still adds energy to the equation.

The hulking hurler damage problem REALLY demonstrates the irrationality of the CARRYING CAPACITY formula, which can be increased to truely absurd levels rather easily.  Optimizing a HH is optimizing carrying capacity, which isn't hard to do -at all-.

Oh, and no HH build so far can actually destroy the earth in a single throw yet, since the earth was calculated to have somewhere upwards of the range of a quadrillion hit points, and the max average damage for a legal build so far was only in the trillions of points of damage range.

Ah, I just checked.  Highest current build deals 480,735,689,434 damage on average.  That's 137,353,054,124d6, by throwing 27,470,610,825,216 pounds, which is a medium load for this character.  Yes, the damage is absurd, but what you REALLY need to look at is the fact that a character can be designed that can carry 27,470,610,825,216 pounds as a MEDIUM LOAD.

The hulking hurler really just demonstrates this rule problem.

*And if I don't recall correctly, it definitely IS _x_d6 per _y_ pounds, so the math still applies, just plug in different numbers.


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## Impeesa (Feb 22, 2005)

Of course, you're talking pre-epic. At some point during the infamous Hulking Hurler thread on the WotC Character Optimization forums, I did some quick calculations and found that you'd only have to be level 20-something (I think) to do a googol of damage (10^100). Of course, that involved abusing the epic spellcasting system to get a high enough strength.. but whatever. 

--Impeesa--


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## Devilkiller (Feb 22, 2005)

> Yeah, but then theres a really, really throw anything ability which lets you use a weapon up to two size categories above your own, and up to your heavy (I think... maybe medium) load limit.
> 
> So you're wrong



Ok, a closer reading of the Hulking Hurler shows that I am indeed wrong. The definite evidence is an example of a Large hulking hurler tossing a 533 lb boulder. That's above the 400lbs allowed for Gargantuan creature's two-handed improvised weapon, so the rules for maximum weapon size must not apply...or the example could just be wrong...it wouldn't be the first time.

Honestly I don't think that whoever wrote the hulking hurler intended the weapon weight to be limited by anything other than  the character's ability to lift, but it would have been nice if more sensible rules from the rest of the book could have prevailed. Anyhow, I think that house ruling things "my way" would be a decent fix to bring the class back into balance. I sort of wonder why WotC rarely seems to address broken rules like this in FAQs or errata. I guess they figure we're all smart enough to come up with a house rule, but I like running my game "by the book" when possible to help foster a sense of fairness. Luckily, since none of my players frequent any D&D message boards I doubt I'll ever see the Hulking Hurler exploit attempted.



> Really, I wonder why not more PCs take Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Chest) since it deals 3d6 damage and weights only 100 lbs. And at medium levels a lot of fighter with good strenght are able to carry the wagon: 5d6 damage. There should be a lot of hight level fighters mastering the art of wagon-fencing.



Stuff like this is why I think this is a good reason to enforce the enforce the standard rules on maximum weapon size. The improvised weapon rules don't say that you can't use an improvised weapon which is larger than a two-handed weapon, but they don't say you can either, so the normal rules should apply as long as you're not a hulking hurler.

I suppose you could take Monkey Grip to use a chest for 3d6 as a medium creature, but at that point there would be no advantage since a Monkey Gripped greatsword could do just as much with a better threat range. IMO it is definitely the hulking hurler and not the improvised weapon rules which are broken. I'll grant though that it would have been prudent to impose a maximum damage limit just in case somebody later wrote a feat or ability that eliminates maximum weapon size.


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## coyote6 (Feb 22, 2005)

*David Pulver figured this out, didn't he?*



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> Ah, I just checked.  Highest current build deals 480,735,689,434 damage on average.  That's 137,353,054,124d6, by throwing 27,470,610,825,216 pounds, which is a medium load for this character.  Yes, the damage is absurd, but what you REALLY need to look at is the fact that a character can be designed that can carry 27,470,610,825,216 pounds as a MEDIUM LOAD.




If you want to build pre-crisis Kryptonians or Daxamites -- e.g., characters that can push around planets -- you need to have higher Str scores than that. Earth masses in the 10^24 kg range, and you're barely at 10^13. Wimps! 

What is that, a Str 183 Colossal creature? Or Str 203 Medium creature? (Or some bizarre Str 180 quadreped that somehow can throw things, maybe?)

I think the chart in Complete Warrior (and also the falling object rules in the core rules) are wrong. 

Carrying capacity quadruples every 10 Str, while damage increases by a linear +5; thus, quadrupling the force one can bring to bear increases damage by +5. Therefore, the relationship between force/energy and "points of damage" isn't linear, it's geometric. Ergo, damage based on mass shouldn't increase linearly, but instead geometrically; instead of +1d6/200 lbs, it should be +1d6 per x2 increase in mass.

Then the Hulking Hurler From Heck would do about 37d6 of damage with his mountain. 

(Of course, the relationship implied by the carrying capacity charts also implies that hit points that are based purely on material strength -- e.g., that of objects -- should also increase with the square of the mass of the object, rather than linearly.  )


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## Fieari (Feb 22, 2005)

coyote6 said:
			
		

> What is that, a Str 183 Colossal creature? Or Str 203 Medium creature? (Or some bizarre Str 180 quadreped that somehow can throw things, maybe?)



The latter.  The HH class says nothing about quadrepeds not being able to throw things.  Nothing at all.  We've got a tauric (sun elf+brown bear) going on, which is LA+2, and then it's also half-dragon.  It's naturally large, but buffs to collossal.  (Buffs also include growing six new arms and then fusing them back into two, amongst other things... many of the buffs are actually mental stat buffs in order to activate magical items later on that do various things... like increase size, and the order of buffing is VERY important as some of the buffs then LOWER mental stats considerably)  The final build only has 15 HD, and its saving throws are abyssmal.  This HH will die rather quickly if the enemy gets the drop, but once it gets to attack, it can kill just about anything except planets.  Moons are probably in the range of something that can be killed.


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## Saeviomagy (Feb 23, 2005)

Devilkiller said:
			
		

> I suppose you could take Monkey Grip to use a chest for 3d6 as a medium creature, but at that point there would be no advantage since a Monkey Gripped greatsword could do just as much with a better threat range. IMO it is definitely the hulking hurler and not the improvised weapon rules which are broken. I'll grant though that it would have been prudent to impose a maximum damage limit just in case somebody later wrote a feat or ability that eliminates maximum weapon size.




I really don't think that the CW rules are at all necessary. The basic rules already have a description of an improvised weapon (club, thrown 10ft, 1d6 damage, 0 cost), and all the DM really needs to do is decide how appropriately shaped a weapon is, assess a penalty to hit based off that, and decide what size of club it would qualify as.


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