# Empower vs. Maximize



## Grog (Jan 23, 2003)

This has probably been discussed before, but is there a concensus on which is better?


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## Crothian (Jan 23, 2003)

If you can empower more then once, empower is much better


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## kreynolds (Jan 23, 2003)

If you're having to deal with a BBEG Rogue, go with a maximized Otiluke's Freezing Sphere (ray option). So much for evasion.


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## Grog (Jan 23, 2003)

Crothian said:
			
		

> *If you can empower more then once, empower is much better *




Right, but I was mainly concerned about which is better if you're only doing it once. Maximize gives more damage on average, but is it worth the extra level added to the spell?


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## AuraSeer (Jan 23, 2003)

Assuming you can only apply either feat once, it seems to depend on whether you like to take chances.

I look at it this way: which would you rather use, if you only have time to cast one spell? An unlucky Empowered _Fireball_ could possibly do as few as 15 points. A Maximized _Fireball_ always does 60 points, never less.

I know which I'd rather have, if I were about to be crushed by a rampaging dragon who had 30 hp left.


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## Maitre Du Donjon (Jan 23, 2003)

On a stricly mathematical viewpoint v.2... ALL EDITED

Normal fireball 10d6 (lvl3) 
   avg damage = 35
   11.7 damage per spell level

Empowered fireball (lvl5) 
   avg damage = 35 X 1.5 = 52.5
   10.5 damage per spell level

Maximized fireball (lvl6) 
   avg damage = 60
   10 damage per spell level

Double empowered fireball (lvl7) 
   avg damage = 35 X 2 = 70
   10 damage per spell level

Maximized, empowered fireball (lvl8) 
   avg damage = 60 + 35 X 0.5 = 77.5
   9.7 damage per spell level

Triple empowered fireball (lvl9)
   avg damage = 35 X 2.5 = 87.5
   9.7 damage per spell level


Edit: AAAARGH i'm have a bachelor's degree in statistics and i can't calculate a freakin' average for christ's sake...

corrected the averages. For some crazy reason, i thought min(10d6) = 6 :\

Now where is that hole so i can crawl in it...


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## ruleslawyer (Jan 23, 2003)

Does your DM tell you your foes' hp?

Maximize, IMHO, is better for sorcerers than for wizards, but I'm still not fond of it all that much. It depends too greatly on knowing the odds, and players in D&D don't generally have that much information about same. 

As far as average damage goes, a Maximized _fireball_ (60 hp) inflicts only 7.5 hp damage, or less than 15%, more than an Empowered _fireball_ (52.5 hp). Is that worth the extra spell level? I'd rather prepare all my _fireballs_ Silent and Empowered than Maximized.


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## Plane Sailing (Jan 23, 2003)

Maitre Du Donjon said:
			
		

> *On a stricly mathematical viewpoint...
> 
> *




On a strictly D&Dish viewpoint - subsequent multipliers always add, so a double empowered is x2, not x2.25 (and a triply empowered is x2.5)

Thus as 7th level it is 66 damage (avg 9.4)

at 9th level it is 82.5 damage (avg 9.16)

Which rather reverses the conclusion by your maths


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## Maitre Du Donjon (Jan 23, 2003)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> *
> 
> On a strictly D&Dish viewpoint - subsequent multipliers always add, so a double empowered is x2, not x2.25 (and a triply empowered is x2.5)
> 
> ...




oops? i've been cheating for a couple of games now and didn't even know it!

Where can I find the confirmation of this crunchy bit of information, please?

Maitre D


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## Zhure (Jan 23, 2003)

Normal fireball 10d6 (lvl3) 
   avg damage = 35
   11 2/3 damage per spell level

Empowered fireball (lvl5) 
   avg damage = 35 X 1.5 = 52.5
   10.5 damage per spell level

Maximized fireball (lvl6) 
   avg damage = 60
   10 damage per spell level

Double empowered fireball (lvl7) 
   avg damage = 35 X 2 = 70
   10 damage per spell level

Maximized, empowered fireball (lvl8) 
   avg damage = 60 + 35 X 0.5 = 77.5
   9.6 damage per spell level

Triple empowered fireball (lvl9)
   avg damage = 35 X 2.5 = 87.5
   9.7 damage per spell level

... corrected for averages.

I'm not sure average damage per spell level is the best way to rate these comparisons, as it makes it look like a normal fireball is best. In my gaming experience as a caster, I've found a hasted mage can drop two normal fireballs for 6 levels of spells for an average of 70/6 = 11 2/3 hit points per spell level. That seems to work well on anyone save those with evasion.

Greg


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## Grog (Jan 23, 2003)

ruleslawyer said:
			
		

> *Maximize, IMHO, is better for sorcerers than for wizards,*




Why do you say this?



> *As far as average damage goes, a Maximized fireball (60 hp) inflicts only 7.5 hp damage, or less than 15%, more than an Empowered fireball (52.5 hp). Is that worth the extra spell level? I'd rather prepare all my fireballs Silent and Empowered than Maximized. *




Well, an Empowered fireball inflicts 52.5 hp on average, vs. 35 hp for a regular fireball. So that's 17.5 extra damage for two spell levels, while Maximize gives 25 extra damage for three. Almost the same increase, though it is a bit lower for Maximize.

I guess a lot of it depends on what else you'd be using the higher level slot for.


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## Xarlen (Jan 24, 2003)

I've always just rolled 5d6 for a 10th level Fireball, not multiplied. What would that do to effect the averages? Is it better to multiply, or roll?


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## Zhure (Jan 24, 2003)

Xarlen: rolling the extra 5d6 doesn't change the average, but it changes the bell curve, making it so the extremes are far less likely.

With 10d6 x1.5 your chance of getting minimum (15) is 1:1x6^10. With 15d6, your chance of getting minimum is 1:1x6^15.

Greg


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## gtJormungand (Jan 24, 2003)

Maitre Du Donjon said:
			
		

> *
> 
> oops? i've been cheating for a couple of games now and didn't even know it!
> 
> ...




This little bit is found on page 275 of the PH under the heading of Multiplying.


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## Al'Kelhar (Jan 24, 2003)

IMHO Empower Spell has a better "power-to-weight" ratio than Maximize Spell for spells whose variable is based on a d4 or d6 roll.  The smaller the die, the better Empower Spell is compared to Maximize Spell, because the maximised "roll" is proportionately less than the average x 1.5 "roll".

Average d4 = 2.5
Empowered average d4 = 3.5
_NB: *Not * 3.75, because of the effects of rounding of results, see below_ 
Maximized d4 = 4
Average difference = 0.5

Average d6 = 3.5
Empowered average d6 = 5
Maximized d6 = 6
Average difference = 1

Average d8 = 4.5
Empowered average d8 = 6.5
Maximized d8 = 8
Average difference = 1.5

And so on... (the average difference between the Enpowered die roll and the Maximized die roll increases by 0.5 per 2 sides of the die).

Since the vast majority of spells use d4s and d6s as their random element, and because an Empowered spell is +2 levels whereas a Maximised is +3 levels, if you have a choice of one of the two as your metamagic feat, always go with Empower Spell.

In relation to calculation of Empowered spells, I believe most of the previous posters have got it wrong.  The 1.5 multiple is for _each die_, which is then _rounded down_ according to the standard rules for rounding of die rolls.  Thus, an Empowered fireball at 10th level does not do an average of 52.5 points of damage (35 x 1.5), it does 50 (10 x 5).  This is because an Enpowered d6 has an average of 5, not 5.25, as follows:

Result of 1 on d6 -> Empowered result = 1
Result of 2 on d6 -> Empowered result = 3
Result of 3 on d6 -> Empowered result = 4
Result of 4 on d6 -> Empowered result = 6
Result of 5 on d6 -> Empowered result = 7
Result of 6 on d6 -> Empowered result = 9

Average = 30/6 = 5.

Cheers, Al'Kelhar


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## ruleslawyer (Jan 24, 2003)

Why do you say that, Al'Kelhar?



> Empower Spell [Metamagic]
> 
> Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by one-half. An empowered spell _deals half again as much damage as normal_, cures half again as many hit points, affects half again as many targets, etc., as appropriate. Saving throws and opposed rolls (such as the one the character makes when the character casts dispel magic) are not affected. Spells without random variables are not affected. An empowered spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell’s actual level.




Doesn't sound to me like you multiply each die separately; it sounds like you multiply the "damage" dealt by the spell. (What a pain it'd be otherwise, anyway!)

Grog: You're right that Maximize follows a generally straight progression of damage per spell level (although even then, it's suboptimal as compared with Empower), but of course I tend to think that you should get MORE bang for your buck as you add levels by feat; IOW, the damage-by-level curve should follow an accelerating progression, not a level progression. By that standard, Maximize is clearly inferior. 

The other major issue, which of course isn't part of the core rules, is what happens when the Improved Metamagic feat comes into play at epic levels. Assuming that you can stack Empower, it becomes a FAR better feat to have than is Maximize. For that matter, the lack of stackability of Maximize is a disadvantage compared to Empower even at non-epic levels.


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## Maitre Du Donjon (Jan 24, 2003)

Al'Kelhar said:
			
		

> *
> 
> In relation to calculation of Empowered spells, I believe most of the previous posters have got it wrong.  The 1.5 multiple is for each die, which is then rounded down according to the standard rules for rounding of die rolls.  Thus, an Empowered fireball at 10th level does not do an average of 52.5 points of damage (35 x 1.5), it does 50 (10 x 5).  This is because an Enpowered d6 has an average of 5, not 5.25, as follows:
> 
> *




I think you're thinking this because of the example in the empower spell description, which deals with magic missile. Its stated that you multiply the damage of each individual magic missile (1d4+1 X 1.5). I _don't_ think, however, that you should multiply each die of the fireball, round down, and add them (what a pain it'd be instead) because a 10th level fireball isnt 10 little fireballs that hit the same tardet, as magic missiles.

Maitre D


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## Stalker0 (Jan 24, 2003)

I think we should include some other spells in this discussion since talking about fireballs is a very limited use of this spell.

The feats really depend on your personal preference, power or consistentsy. Power is an obvious advantage in itself. However, knowing exactly what damage your going to deal is a tactical advantage. ITs like having two guns, one is more accurate and more powerful than the second, but jams on occasion. The second one never jams. 

From my point of view, I prefer empower simply because of the level ups. A +2 to spell level is bad enough, by +3 I can find better spells to use my slots for normally.


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## AuraSeer (Jan 24, 2003)

I don't understand why we care about damage points per level. There's no meaning in the calculation because levels are not fungible.  You can't swap _Chain Lightning_ to get two _Fireballs_, nor a _Teleport_ plus a _Magic Missile_; each level is a completely different entity. When comparing spells across a level boundary, using the level in a ratio has no significance.

If a 7th-level spell does "10 points per level", and a 6th-level spell does "11 points per level", that doesn't mean the lower-level spell is any better. It still has less total effect, which is all that really matters during combat.


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## bret (Jan 24, 2003)

Bwah, ha, ha!

Fear my Ray of Frost! It does _%Divide by Zero Exception%_ damage / spell level!

That is much higher than any of the other options listed!


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## Grog (Jan 24, 2003)

ruleslawyer said:
			
		

> *The other major issue, which of course isn't part of the core rules, is what happens when the Improved Metamagic feat comes into play at epic levels. Assuming that you can stack Empower, it becomes a FAR better feat to have than is Maximize. For that matter, the lack of stackability of Maximize is a disadvantage compared to Empower even at non-epic levels. *




On the other hand, if you take Improved Metamagic twice, you can get Maximize down to just a one level increase too. Then you could Maximize a spell and then Empower it several times, which would net you more damage, on average, than one extra Empower would.


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## Dash Dannigan (Jan 24, 2003)

AuraSeer said:
			
		

> *If a 7th-level spell does "10 points per level", and a 6th-level spell does "11 points per level", that doesn't mean the lower-level spell is any better. It still has less total effect, which is all that really matters during combat. *




This is true, however, the method is still valid when comparing spells and meta-magiced spells of equivalent level to determine the best bang-for-your-buck.


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## ruleslawyer (Jan 24, 2003)

Grog said:
			
		

> *
> 
> On the other hand, if you take Improved Metamagic twice, you can get Maximize down to just a one level increase too. Then you could Maximize a spell and then Empower it several times, which would net you more damage, on average, than one extra Empower would. *




Yes, but why waste the feat?

At that point, you could have saved on two feat slots (Maximize, second Imp Metamagic) and been able to Empower at +1 level cost. (This is the minimum you can spend anyway, because Empower can't drop to 0 level cost.) So then you're set; just Empower to the skies and the heck with Maximize. 

Plus, Maximize and Empower don't synergize well anyway, as we all know.


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## Fenes 2 (Jan 24, 2003)

Do not forget that you will be able to use Empower spell earlier and therefore on more spells than maximize spells. When your wizard is happily slinging empowered fireballs at level 9 the other wizard has still 2 levels to go before he will be able to apply maximize to his fireballs.
Especially for sorcerers, imho, empower spell beats maximize spell any day.

And rolling a bucket of d6 is fun - just stating the damage does not compare...


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## Numion (Jan 24, 2003)

AuraSeer said:
			
		

> *Assuming you can only apply either feat once, it seems to depend on whether you like to take chances.
> 
> I look at it this way: which would you rather use, if you only have time to cast one spell? An unlucky Empowered Fireball could possibly do as few as 15 points. A Maximized Fireball always does 60 points, never less.
> 
> I know which I'd rather have, if I were about to be crushed by a rampaging dragon who had 30 hp left. *




When you're rolling lot's of dice, like 10 in the case of fireball, the chances of getting 10 is quite small. The more dice you roll, the less likely it gets to roll the extremes.


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## Stalker0 (Jan 24, 2003)

Numion said:
			
		

> *
> 
> When you're rolling lot's of dice, like 10 in the case of fireball, the chances of getting 10 is quite small. The more dice you roll, the less likely it gets to roll the extremes. *




True, and the more it will suck when you finally roll that extreme


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## apsuman (Jan 27, 2003)

I fall into the empower is better category.

First, you get to use it earlier.  You can start using empower at level 6 (for a sorcerer) empowering your 1st level spells (can cantrips).  But you would have to be level 8 to use maximize.  You could empower a fireball at level 10 but would have to be level 12 to maximize it.

Plus, under current rules, you can multiple empower spells.


g!


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## Shard O'Glase (Jan 27, 2003)

I think empower is beter but not by a huge amount.  Maximize has a kind of cool factor IMO that evens it out a bit.


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## Kaji (Jan 28, 2003)

My super crazy mage has both Empower and Maximize, and I find that I'm always using Empower and almost never using Maximize. The level cost is just too much. If I had slots to burn, it would be nice to have some maximized spells around, but I don't think I'd take Maximize for my next mage.


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## Ridley's Cohort (Jan 29, 2003)

I like Empower better because the lower costs yields higher flexibility, plus you can potentially doubly Empower at higher levels.  That means you get better long term value from the feat.

At 9th - 12th level, an Empowered Fireball or Lightning Bolt gives you very good bang for the buck.

The real fun is when you doubly Empower.  Doubly Empowered Endurance or Fox's Cunning is pretty darn useful.  Doubly Empowered Magic Missile is a poor man's energy substitution.


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