# UA: New Race Options, Eladrin and Gith



## The-Magic-Sword (Sep 11, 2017)

This month's Unearthed Arcana column from WotC's Mike Mearls and Jeremy Crawford introduces two new race options. "Two race options debut in this month’s Unearthed Arcana: eladrin (an  elf subrace) and gith. This eladrin is an alternative to the version of  the subrace that appears in the _Dungeon Master’s Guide_."

​


----------



## gyor (Sep 11, 2017)

I like them.


----------



## nswanson27 (Sep 11, 2017)

References to "psionics" in the race description, and then later release the Psionics class. I smell lots of unnecessary rules questions and quibbling on the horizon...


----------



## The-Magic-Sword (Sep 11, 2017)

Yaarel said:


> The Eladrin ability score adjustment needs to be: +2 any ability score, +1 any other.
> 
> Charisma and all of its connotations [charm, innate magic, etcetera] is what best represents the Fey Elf concept.
> 
> ...




Eladrin are elves, and all elves get Dexterity- I think int/cha is fine, it makes them excellent at all kinds of arcane magic and the int option is especially necessary since Eladrin were the archetypal wizard race last edition. They also were one of the two archetypal swordmages, so I'm glad they kept dexterity- keeps them excellent for gishes.


----------



## TheWriterFantastic™ (Sep 11, 2017)

Yaarel said:


> The Eladrin ability score adjustment needs to be: +2 any ability score, +1 any other.
> 
> Charisma and all of its connotations [charm, innate magic, etcetera] is what best represents the Fey Elf concept.
> 
> ...




Eladrin's a Subrace of Elf - they just aren't 100% clear about it in the playtest document - as elves, they have the +2 to Dexterity, and it makes sense, from that standpoint, with elves always being described as a physically graceful people. The Charisma or Intelligence bonus is referential to the race/subrace's history of being inherently tied to arcane magic - it works for arcane trickster, bard, eldritch knight, sorcerer, warlock, and wizard. 
The original take in the Dungeon Master Guide was relatively bland for a subrace, so it's at least more interesting with the Shifting Seasons trait granting a semi-flexible cantrip, making it different from High Elves with both that and the Fey Step feature. It's also interesting that they stepped back from the Misty Step as racial spell feature.


----------



## Coroc (Sep 11, 2017)

Quite ok - for playtesting. I quite like the season concept that is a cool RP aid.

But - why does everybody and his mother ned access to short range teleportation?

It makes the life of a DM unnecessary difficult.

No natural obstacles anymore your monk / eladrin / warlock / gith just teleports around bars of a prison cell / out of his manacles / restrains / locked rooms up/down cliffs windows roofs etc etc yadda yadda yadda.

BAN 

No not so funny. C'mon now, teleportation and flying is gained much to easy in this edition. That only works with certain type of campaigns with others it just does not.

Quintessence for me as a DM I houserule or restrict it if I have something in my mind which would be totally cool without those superpowers but trivial without.

Oki time I start a thread on this please discuss there.


----------



## jaelis (Sep 11, 2017)

Eladrin getting teleport is pretty much baked in from the 4e version. If you don't like it you'd best just ban the race.

The gith teleport option comes late enough that it doesn't have any real impact. Wizards have already being misty stepping for two levels, and they have fly now.

If you don't want _any _teleport or flight in your campaign, then you just have to make some bigger adjustments.


----------



## Ketser (Sep 11, 2017)

So question... considering that we have a subrace option that is strongly tied to feywild and a race that is strongly tied to planes and planar travel? So is ita  hint that they are working on something planar or worlds of D&D related?

  [MENTION=6895991]Coroc[/MENTION] most of obstacles and limitations you describe matter only for the first few levels anyway, so really not a big thing.


----------



## Coroc (Sep 11, 2017)

Ketser said:


> So question... considering that we have a subrace option that is strongly tied to feywild and a race that is strongly tied to planes and planar travel? So is ita  hint that they are working on something planar or worlds of D&D related?
> 
> [MENTION=6895991]Coroc[/MENTION] most of obstacles and limitations you describe matter only for the first few levels anyway, so really not a big thing. EDIT And even on Eladrin's 1st level teleport... well you can still play around line of sight.




I would like if they did some more adaptive work for other campaigns worlds than FR given they do not touch my beloved classic modules to much.

But I fear they rather put Sigil somewhere into Faerun.

My thread on the topic is up, please read and comment there. Vertical movement is not an issue of level imho.


----------



## TheWriterFantastic™ (Sep 11, 2017)

Coroc said:


> Quite ok - for playtesting. I quite like the season concept that is a cool RP aid.
> 
> But - why does everybody and his mother ned access to short range teleportation?
> 
> ...




Concerns of Level 1 Teleports aside, Eladrin have had Fey Step since at least 4E, and they need line of sight to make it work. Imprisoned eladrin can be blindfolded and handcuffed to solve that problem - low cost solution, even. Or even better, the prison in question has "Eladrin Hats" in stock - blinding cowls that get strapped and locked onto the offending Eladrin's head, for the more humane ones that want their resident eladrin to stumble headfirst into walls while trying to understand their surroundings, or in a high magic setting, the jailors have an item that imposes the blinded condition for an extended duration (a wand, collar, or something else).


----------



## Coroc (Sep 11, 2017)

TheWriterFantastic™ said:


> Concerns of Level 1 Teleports aside, Eladrin have had Fey Step since at least 4E, and they need line of sight to make it work. Imprisoned eladrin can be blindfolded and handcuffed to solve that problem - low cost solution, even. Or even better, the prison in question has "Eladrin Hats" in stock - blinding cowls that get strapped and locked onto the offending Eladrin's head, for the more humane ones that want their resident eladrin to stumble headfirst into walls while trying to understand their surroundings, or in a high magic setting, the jailors have an item that imposes the blinded condition for an extended duration (a wand, collar, or something else).





Nice ideas, please go to my thread on this topic which I just created, I do not want to derail this thread


----------



## Bitbrain (Sep 11, 2017)

Eladrin look fun.
The idea of their magic and personality being represented by the seasons is pretty cool . . . I'm envisioning a Feywild civilization ruled by four monarchs in harmony with each other (kinda like Narnia), but where each monarch represents one of the four seasons.
LOTS of possibilities with these guys.


----------



## Yaarel (Sep 11, 2017)

Elves work better this way:

Wood Elf: +2 Dexterity, +1 Other
High Elf: +2 Intelligence, +1 Other
Eladrin Elf: +2 Charisma, +1 Other
Grugach Elf: +2 Strength, +1 Other

That is what the Elf feels like.


----------



## OB1 (Sep 11, 2017)

Love the Gith, will plug those in as options in my home brew right away. 

For the Eladrin, I like it, but my first thought was why not make the their own race and use the seasons as sub races with the option to change sub race either based on the season you are in or based on emotion. I think the concept is too limited having to be an eleven sub. 


Sent from my iPhone using EN World


----------



## MechaTarrasque (Sep 11, 2017)

Hmmm, 2 arguably planar (sub)races.....a little more evidence that 2018's crunch book will be something about the multiverse?

I think any player who wants to play an eladrin will need a visual aid to help this poor DM remember what season the PC is in.  The shifting cantrip is interesting. 

Githyanki seem like a good fit for eldritch knight, who'd of thought?  I kid, I kid.  

It is funny, I never really thought of Githzerai rangers (given that they racial enmity towards Githyanki and mindflayers), but it was the first thing I thought of when I read their entry.  With what I can vaguely remember of the underdark ranger, that could be a nasty combination in the right campaign.


----------



## clutchbone (Sep 11, 2017)

Eladrin - choice of secondary ability, supercharged misty step (short rest instead of long) _and_ revolving 4 cantrips? Isn't that a bit much? 

Githyanki - A bit redundant to have _jump_ and _misty step_. I'd give them _magic weapon_ at 5th level instead, fits with their usual lore as arcane warriors and it'll work great with Eldritch Knights who don't normally get it.

Githzerai - With _shield_ and +1 AC, I'd be tempted to try a monk without a racial Dex bump... but I'd probably still go wizard.


----------



## Kobold Avenger (Sep 11, 2017)

I still disapprove of the Githzerai having LN described as their preferred alignment.  It's CN that's been their preferred alignment from before 3e, with only a small monastic order being lawful, as most of the Githzerai race who live in the cities in Limbo should be chaotic.


----------



## Yaarel (Sep 11, 2017)

The-Magic-Sword said:


> Eladrin were the archetypal wizard race last edition.




There is nothing archetypal about a +1.

An archetypal Wizard race requires +2 Intelligence.

But Eladrin feel better toward archetypal Charisma casters, with +2 Charisma, for classes like Bard, maybe Sorcerer.


----------



## Yaarel (Sep 11, 2017)

Notice the Gith subraces distinguish by their +2 ability score modifiers.

The Yanki get +2 to Strength, while the Zerai get +2 to Wisdom.

The Elf races are highly different from each other, and need to likewise distinguish by +2 to their ability scores.

Eladrin Fey Elf +2 Charisma.
Wizard High Elf +2 Intelligence.
Wood Elf +2 Dexterity.


----------



## Yaarel (Sep 11, 2017)

TheWriterFantastic™ said:


> Eladrin's a Subrace of Elf.




Likewise, Githyanki and Githzerai are subraces of Gith. At the same time, Githyanki gain +2 Strength, and Githzerai gain +2 Wisdom.


----------



## Yaarel (Sep 11, 2017)

OB1 said:


> Love the Gith, will plug those in as options in my home brew right away.
> 
> For the Eladrin, I like it, but my first thought was why not make the their own race and use the seasons as sub races with the option to change sub race either based on the season you are in or based on emotion. I think the concept is too limited having to be an eleven sub.




Eladrin as a separate Elf race, with subraces according season. Sounds good to me.

Similarly, the Giant is a group of races. Each one quite different from the other.


----------



## Blue (Sep 11, 2017)

It feels to me that the Eladrin were meant to have subraces (perhaps aligned with the seasons) that would have an ability score modifier, like the Gith and most of the PHB races.  A total +1 is light, even with a useful feature like a static 2nd level spells once per rest.

I have a quibble with the Githzerai, but it's not a flaw in the race exactly.  They are the only +2 Wisdom race.  With Wisdom as your primary ability score for any clerics, I expect I'll see a large upswing in Githzerai clerics at my local gaming store where UA is accepted simply because they are the only race that highly synergizes with it.  (Well, variant humans could if you took a half-feat that boosted Wis, but usually variant humans aren't going to half-feats that I see.)

EDIT:  [MENTION=54629]pukunui[/MENTION] corrected me that Firbolg also have +2 WIS.


----------



## Mistwell (Sep 11, 2017)

Yaarel said:


> The Eladrin ability score adjustment needs to be: +2 any ability score, +1 any other.
> 
> Charisma and all of its connotations [charm, innate magic, etcetera] is what best represents the Fey Elf concept.
> 
> ...






Yaarel said:


> Elves work better this way:
> 
> Wood Elf: +2 Dexterity, +1 Other
> High Elf: +2 Intelligence, +1 Other
> ...






Yaarel said:


> Notice the Gith subraces distinguish by their +2 ability score modifiers.
> 
> The Yanki get +2 to Strength, while the Zerai get +2 to Wisdom.
> 
> ...




Is there some reason you keep repeating yourself?


----------



## Mistwell (Sep 11, 2017)

BTW, here is the accompanying video:

[video=youtube;Yr8tC1Zl_1g]https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=49&v=Yr8tC1Zl_1g[/video]


----------



## castlewise (Sep 11, 2017)

I really like the Eladrin shifting personality thing.  

I'm not sure why but for some reason I'm a bit down on the Gith. They get a +2 to an ability, +1 to an ability, a toughness boost, and free access to 3 different spells.  It all seems like it might overshadow the other races, especially wis based ones. 

P.S.  If this is all pointing to an upcoming book of the planes then sign me up!


----------



## MechaTarrasque (Sep 11, 2017)

I wonder if they are testing to see if there is some love for +1 common stat, +2 subrace stat (instead of the normal +2 common stat, +1 subrace stat).  I doubt this would be retroactively applied to existing races, but if popular, it might be expanded to future races.


----------



## mellored (Sep 11, 2017)

I like the shifting personality.  It actually helps makes elves feel more different than just "humans with bows".   I hope they do more things like that.

Gith seems like a generic bucket of mechanics.  Though at least some combinations we havn't seen much of.


----------



## Mistwell (Sep 11, 2017)

I've never wanted to play an Eladrin before, but now I do, thanks to the shifting personality traits.

I've wanted to play a Gith before...but nothing here inspires me to want to play one.


----------



## Sunseeker (Sep 11, 2017)

The Eladrin seems neat, I like the idea of aligning with the seasons but it also provides quite a bit of versatility to just a race choice.  It would be interesting to be expanded upon for a elf-centric campaign, having distinct factions of Eladrin for each season, good flavor there.  

The Gith seem...okay.  I think connecting them both by the +1 Int reduces the variability to the race.  It's pretty stock Gith either way though.


----------



## RSIxidor (Sep 11, 2017)

I really like the way they did +1 for the base state and +2 for the sub-race stat on the Gith. While I realize this is basically meaningless from a mechanical standpoint, I feel like this way of doing things gives more flavor to the sub-race than to the main race and I think that's a good thing.

The seasons RP bit is really cool for the Eldadrin. Tying that into a specific racial feature is a nice touch as well.


----------



## Yaarel (Sep 11, 2017)

Heh, [MENTION=2525]Mistwell[/MENTION]

Note also, in 4e, the Eladrin can gain both +2 Charisma and +2 Intelligence, without a bonus to Dexterity.


----------



## DEFCON 1 (Sep 11, 2017)

nswanson27 said:


> References to "psionics" in the race description, and then later release the Psionics class. I smell lots of unnecessary rules questions and quibbling on the horizon...




Ten bucks says that while this playtest is giving the gith spells and calling them "psionics" (probably just to see if people are okay with them having movement based abilities as racial features)... when the gith are released next year in _Elminster's Guide To The Planes_ their racial features will be disciplines instead, directly ported from the Mystic.


----------



## UngeheuerLich (Sep 11, 2017)

I like that they are trying out new ability bonus concepts.

In hindsight some races should have been that way from the beginning. Maybe not. Maybe choice which bonus is +1 and which +2 would have been especially good.
All races have following features:

Race Elf: bonus to dex.
Subrace woodelf: bonus to wisdom.

Race header: your race and subrace typically give you two ability bonuses. You may chose a +2 bonus to one of them and a +1 bonus to the other one. Exceptions are possible.


----------



## barasawa (Sep 11, 2017)

The Eladrin seasonal trait/flaw table seems like a pain in the assimar and a way to just cause conflict in the party.


----------



## cbwjm (Sep 11, 2017)

I like the updates to the Eladrin. The four seasons is a great defining trait and works in well with the lore which has some lords of the various seasons. It does mean I'll have to change my bladesinger around a little, no more elven weapon training so I'll have to pick up a relevant weapon from the subclass.


----------



## Yaarel (Sep 11, 2017)

cbwjm said:


> I like the updates to the Eladrin. The four seasons is a great defining trait and works in well with the lore which has some lords of the various seasons. It does mean I'll have to change my bladesinger around a little, no more elven weapon training so I'll have to pick up a relevant weapon from the subclass.



For Bladesinger, make the sword proficiency available as a spell casting focus, an alternative to the wand.


----------



## Yaarel (Sep 11, 2017)

With the Gith featuring +2 Strength and +2 Wisdom, I wonder if these correspond to specific Mystic subclass builds.


----------



## pukunui (Sep 11, 2017)

Blue said:


> I have a quibble with the Githzerai, but it's a flaw in the race exactly.  They are the only +2 Wisdom race.



Firbolgs have +2 Wis as well.


----------



## Jester David (Sep 11, 2017)

I like a lot of the personality elements to the eladrin (its so much better than the non-personality they were given in 4e of just being a magical elf rather than a woodsy elf). But I think I'd still prefer them being an elf subrace rather than a distinct race.
-edit-
Oh, it is still a subrace. I'm stupid.


----------



## Sacrosanct (Sep 11, 2017)

I suspect all signs are pointing to a Planescape setting/campaign in the near future.


----------



## Jester David (Sep 11, 2017)

Sacrosanct said:


> I suspect all signs are pointing to a Planescape setting/campaign in the near future.




Sure. After all, an Eberron campaign setting book followed right after the February 2015 UA article, right?


----------



## gyor (Sep 11, 2017)

castlewise said:


> I really like the Eladrin shifting personality thing.
> 
> I'm not sure why but for some reason I'm a bit down on the Gith. They get a +2 to an ability, +1 to an ability, a toughness boost, and free access to 3 different spells.  It all seems like it might overshadow the other races, especially wis based ones.
> 
> P.S.  If this is all pointing to an upcoming book of the planes then sign me up!




 The Gith is based on the Tiefling model, cantrip,  spell at 3rd level,  spell at 5th.


----------



## Sacrosanct (Sep 11, 2017)

Jester David said:


> Sure. After all, an Eberron campaign setting book followed right after the February 2015 UA article, right?




this is just one more thing though, not by itself, like that UA was.  Also, in Feb 2015, there were a lot of higher priority things that had to be done first.


----------



## cbwjm (Sep 11, 2017)

Sacrosanct said:


> I suspect all signs are pointing to a Planescape setting/campaign in the near future.




If not the Planescape setting itself, a planar handbook may be on the horizon.


----------



## jgsugden (Sep 11, 2017)

A little lackluster, but fine.  I don't like how fiddly the eladrin is... a lot of rolling and random switches.


----------



## gyor (Sep 11, 2017)

Jester David said:


> Sure. After all, an Eberron campaign setting book followed right after the February 2015 UA article, right?




 I think it's more likely a manual of the planes style book that touches on various, settings like planescape,  eberron,  greyhawk,  ect...,  let's see what the next few UAs look like,  that could give up a better grasp of their direction.


----------



## gyor (Sep 11, 2017)

jgsugden said:


> A little lackluster, but fine.  I don't like how fiddly the eladrin is... a lot of rolling and random switches.




 The switches are the Eladrin's choice,  they can chose to switch once per short/long rest,  it's not random. 

 And the personality trait/flaw stuff is complete fluff,  it's not required, and can be ignored.


----------



## Yaarel (Sep 11, 2017)

In 5e, "fluff" is rules as written, and matters a lot.

If you dislike the fluff, speak up now, or forever hold your peace.


----------



## Jester David (Sep 11, 2017)

Sacrosanct said:


> this is just one more thing though, not by itself, like that UA was.  Also, in Feb 2015, there were a lot of higher priority things that had to be done first.



What are the other planar things they've done or teased. 
I remember a lot of people expected "Midway" to be planar related, but that was just a semi-random codename for _Xanthar's Guide to Everything_.



gyor said:


> I think it's more likely a manual of the planes style book that touches on various, settings like planescape,  eberron,  greyhawk,  ect...,  let's see what the next few UAs look like,  that could give up a better grasp of their direction.



I doubt they're advertising the Fall 2018 book this early. After all, they didn't start doing the classes for XGtE until November of last year. And a lot of the other stuff (traps, skill & racial feats, downtime) was also early in 2017.

If they do something planar, it will likely be an adventure. So they can do a tour of Sigil and the surrounding realms at the same time, like they gave a tour of Chult and the North.
But, given they tend to alternate between big module and low module, I think that would be the summer 2018 adventure at the earliest, with the spring one announced in January being more of a reprint.


----------



## The Human Target (Sep 11, 2017)

Someone needs to introduce the Eladrin to Lithium.


----------



## Gardens & Goblins (Sep 11, 2017)

The Human Target said:


> Someone needs to introduce the Eladrin to Lithium.




*Eladrin character:* SHUT UP! I HATE YOU!

*Everyone else:* Ooooh, someone is feeling Summer today!


----------



## gyor (Sep 11, 2017)

mellored said:


> I like the shifting personality.  It actually helps makes elves feel more different than just "humans with bows".   I hope they do more things like that.
> 
> Gith seems like a generic bucket of mechanics.  Though at least some combinations we havn't seen much of.




 They aren't random mechanics,  they are based on both fluff,  the City are Psionic races that settled in very different envoriments that shaped their culture. 

 Githzerai dwell in limbo which is dangerous and chaotic when someone isn't forcing their will on it,  which takes great disciple, and a constant awareness of their surroundings,  which pushed the Githzerai towards a lifestyle akin to monks in order to force stability on their sections of limbo. So even non monks get a basic monk training so they can survive in limbo. 

 The Githyanki on the other hand are a warriors,  they live in the Astral Plane,  they have no need of the sample level of awareness (wisdom) to survive as much of the Astral Plane is static,  and you don't need to eat, drink,  or sleep on the Astral Plane. 

 So the Githyanki go to war against Illithids, Githzerai,  and anyone who threatens them. They are also pirates. 

 And they are pressed into the Githyanki military by the Lich Queen,  so they follow her alignment,  unless they go rogue. All that physical training, plus not aging because of the Astral Plane keeps them strong,  hence the strength bonus. 

 And their psionic magic is the result of Illithid experimentation,  just like it is with the Grey Dwarves (different species,  Grey Dwarves come from Dwarves,  and Gith evolved from humans, although the transformation of the Gith is more extreme, hence being a new species instead of a subrace, Gith lay eggs for example I think). 

 The two Gith subraces split after freeing themselves from Illithids, each following a different leader and philisohy so they hate each other. 

 I think spelljammer had a third type of Gith that liked to spelljam.


----------



## dropbear8mybaby (Sep 11, 2017)

This seems like it's just a wholesale replacement for the high elf. Why would you take a high elf? I mean, sure, if you _really_ want a cantrip that isn't one of the four best wizard cantrips in the game, that you can choose to switch between every morning, you might want to take high elf, but that's a pretty slim argument. The elf weapon training high elves get is almost always redundant or useless and all they get otherwise over the eladrin is an extra language. Yay.

This is just massive power creep but of course, because it'll be popular, it'll probably go through.

As for the gith, I really don't like the lack of synergy with the ability scores and I especially don't like two mental ability score bonuses on the zerai. As another poster mentioned, making the zerai prefer lawful neutral is also not in line with the core identity of the race, either.


----------



## vpuigdoller (Sep 12, 2017)

I love the gith love!!!    I like the flavor in the eladrin not sure yet on how I feel the way is implemented in this UA.


----------



## Mistwell (Sep 12, 2017)

dropbear8mybaby said:


> This seems like it's just a wholesale replacement for the high elf. Why would you take a high elf? I mean, sure, if you _really_ want a cantrip that isn't one of the four best wizard cantrips in the game, that you can choose to switch between every morning, you might want to take high elf, but that's a pretty slim argument. The elf weapon training high elves get is almost always redundant or useless and all they get otherwise over the eladrin is an extra language. Yay.
> This is just massive power creep but of course, because it'll be popular, it'll probably go through.




Why is that slim? Choosing which cantrip you take seems more powerful to me than being forced to choose one of those four (Friends, Chill Touch, and Minor Illusion, Firebolt, and two of those spells I've literally never seen chosen by any wizard player, ever)...and only depending on whether you're up for role-playing the baggage that goes with that choice. Doesn't seem like any power creep to me, much less "massive". You loose the choice of Booming Blade, Green-Flame Blade, Frostbite, Lightning Lure, Mold Earth, Ray of Frost, Thunderwave, Thunderclap, etc.. Lots of popular options lost if you take Eladrin instead of High Elf.


----------



## Greg K (Sep 12, 2017)

I guess that I am am in the minority as I do not like the Four Seasons personality or the  Shifting Seasons cantrips.  As for the Gith,  I have no reason to give them a look. I have disliked them since they first appeared the Fiend Folio, will not use/include them as a DM, and will not play in a camp that allows them as PCs- OMMV.


----------



## The-Magic-Sword (Sep 12, 2017)

Ditto, many of the important cantrips are missing from the list the eladrin get- especially the Gish cantrips, frost damage, etc. Its a strong feature but I can't see it as excluding High Elves as a choice either, I would be more likely to consider the fey step feature to be defining (which makes sense, it's what they originally got)


----------



## dropbear8mybaby (Sep 12, 2017)

Mistwell said:


> Why is that slim? Choosing which cantrip you take seems more powerful to me than being forced to choose one of those four (Friends, Chill Touch, and Minor Illusion, Firebolt, and two of those spells I've literally never seen chosen by any wizard player, ever)...and only depending on whether you're up for role-playing the baggage that goes with that choice. Doesn't seem like any power creep to me, much less "massive". You loose the choice of Booming Blade, Green-Flame Blade, Frostbite, Lightning Lure, Mold Earth, Ray of Frost, Thunderwave, Thunderclap, etc.. Lots of popular options lost if you take Eladrin instead of High Elf.




Thunderwave is a 1st level spell. BB, GFB are both only good on classes that either have access to it already, or clerics and rogues. And even then, it's arguable for the rogue since it denies a bonus action attack with an off-hand weapon. Frostbite is an OK cantrip, but it's nothing special. Lightning Lure, Mold Earth, Ray of Frost and Thunderclap are not very good cantrips at all. Only ray of frost is even slightly comparable to fire bolt, and even then is definitely the weakest of the alternative attack cantrips. Fire Bolt is _the_ damage cantrip of choice for a wizard, friends is a very powerful charm effect when you consider that anyone you use it on, isn't going to be around after 1 minute, it can be used to intimidate (so you're angering them anyway), charm person has the target realise they've been charmed and is a 1st level spell, and there's no saving throw for friends where there is for charm person. Minor illusion is one of the best cantrips in the game. In the hands of an imaginative player, it's incredibly powerful, and chill touch is the third best attack cantrip (only one better than it is shocking grasp).

Other than putting in message and shocking grasp, they couldn't have chosen better cantrips for the four to choose from. You're essentially getting four of the best cantrips compared to one, plus misty step, plus being able to choose charisma instead of int. Int is useless for anything other than a wizard, while charisma is used as primary in two classes, secondary in two others, and is good for everyone because of the power of the associated skills, and there being more (and more important) cha saves than int.

So yeah, it's a massive power boost and makes high elf almost redundant except for a few corner cases.


----------



## cbwjm (Sep 12, 2017)

I think you're overreacting a little about the Eladrin there.


----------



## The Human Target (Sep 12, 2017)

Greg K said:


> I guess that I am am in the minority as I do not like the Four Seasons personality or the  Shifting Seasons cantrips.  As for the Gith,  I have no reason to give them a look. I have disliked them since they first appeared the Fiend Folio, will not use/include them as a DM, and will not play in a camp that allows them as PCs- OMMV.




I somehow am still shocked by the incredibly strong opinions people have about D&D stuff I consider to be totally trivial.


----------



## Yaarel (Sep 12, 2017)

dropbear8mybaby said:


> This seems like it's just a wholesale replacement for the high elf. Why would you take a high elf? I mean, sure, if you _really_ want a cantrip that isn't one of the four best wizard cantrips in the game, that you can choose to switch between every morning, you might want to take high elf, but that's a pretty slim argument. The elf weapon training high elves get is almost always redundant or useless and all they get otherwise over the eladrin is an extra language. Yay.
> 
> This is just massive power creep but of course, because it'll be popular, it'll probably go through.




The PH High Elf design is underpowered and in need of an upgrade to be mechanically competitive with other races.


----------



## Morrus (Sep 12, 2017)

The Human Target said:


> I somehow am still shocked by the incredibly strong opinions people have about D&D stuff I consider to be totally trivial.




Ah. New to the internet, are we?


----------



## Mistwell (Sep 12, 2017)

dropbear8mybaby said:


> Thunderwave is a 1st level spell. BB, GFB are both only good on classes that either have access to it already, or clerics and rogues. And even then, it's arguable for the rogue since it denies a bonus action attack with an off-hand weapon. Frostbite is an OK cantrip, but it's nothing special. Lightning Lure, Mold Earth, Ray of Frost and Thunderclap are not very good cantrips at all. Only ray of frost is even slightly comparable to fire bolt, and even then is definitely the weakest of the alternative attack cantrips. Fire Bolt is _the_ damage cantrip of choice for a wizard, friends is a very powerful charm effect when you consider that anyone you use it on, isn't going to be around after 1 minute, it can be used to intimidate (so you're angering them anyway), charm person has the target realise they've been charmed and is a 1st level spell, and there's no saving throw for friends where there is for charm person. Minor illusion is one of the best cantrips in the game. In the hands of an imaginative player, it's incredibly powerful, and chill touch is the third best attack cantrip (only one better than it is shocking grasp).
> 
> Other than putting in message and shocking grasp, they couldn't have chosen better cantrips for the four to choose from. You're essentially getting four of the best cantrips compared to one, plus misty step, plus being able to choose charisma instead of int. Int is useless for anything other than a wizard, while charisma is used as primary in two classes, secondary in two others, and is good for everyone because of the power of the associated skills, and there being more (and more important) cha saves than int.
> 
> So yeah, it's a massive power boost and makes high elf almost redundant except for a few corner cases.




How about we agree to disagree? You appear to have substituted your personal opinion on which are the "best" cantrips, an opinion I think isn't particularly well shared in opinion polls or build guides I might add, for fact on this one.


----------



## dropbear8mybaby (Sep 12, 2017)

Yaarel said:


> The PH High Elf design is underpowered and in need of an upgrade to be mechanically competitive with other races.



I agree.



Mistwell said:


> How about we agree to disagree? You appear to have substituted your personal opinion on which are the "best" cantrips, an opinion I think isn't particularly well shared in opinion polls or build guides I might add, for fact on this one.



How about you provide proof otherwise? Show these "polls" and "build guides" that prove your point. You're the one who said there was value in being able to choose a _single_ cantrip over having access to any of a set of four. That's your opinion as well. Using the fallacious argument that "it's your opinion" is just a means to shut down argument because you can't be bothered providing the proof to back up your own claims.

Show me a build where the high elf having the choice of cantrip is a better option than the eladrin.


----------



## Kobold Avenger (Sep 12, 2017)

gyor said:


> Githzerai dwell in limbo which is dangerous and chaotic when someone isn't forcing their will on it,  which takes great disciple, and a constant awareness of their surroundings,  which pushed the Githzerai towards a lifestyle akin to monks in order to force stability on their sections of limbo. So even non monks get a basic monk training so they can survive in limbo.



Monk training does not help one survive in Limbo, there was a skill/non-weapon proficiency called Chaos-Shaping that was based on either INT or WIS which allowed anyone to shape the environment around them.  While being 2e they just made a non-weapon proficiency for anything, Chaos-shaping had nothing to do with Monk training and shouldn't at all, even ignoring 2e's general lack of Monk class.  In 5e terms Chaos-shaping would be nothing more than a simple INT or WIS check.  The ones who kept the Githzerai settlements "stable" were the Anarchs Guild which had nothing to do with being Monks, and if any of their members had character classes they'd probably be Wizards or Mystics/Psions.


----------



## seebs (Sep 12, 2017)

The Human Target said:


> I somehow am still shocked by the incredibly strong opinions people have about D&D stuff I consider to be totally trivial.




I've been doing this since the late 80s and... yeah, still sometimes a bit shocked.


----------



## Yaarel (Sep 12, 2017)

The PH High Elf probably balances mechanically by keeping it as-is, while upgrading its ability score adjustments to +2 Intelligence, +2 Dexterity.


----------



## Tales and Chronicles (Sep 12, 2017)

I'll start working on new characters concept right away since there's still time before we start our new OotA campaign next week. 
- Githyanki Undying Warlock (the Lich Queen), Blade Pact (silver great sword)
- Githyanki Horizon walker, FE: Aberration
- Githyanki Eldritch Knight
- Zerai Knowledge cleric
- Zerai Chaos Sorcerer
- Zerai Open Hand monk
- Eladrin Glamour Bard
- Eladrin fey-lock
- Eladrin Primeval gardian

So many new ideas. Love new UAs, each time it triggers my imagination.


----------



## Mistwell (Sep 12, 2017)

dropbear8mybaby said:


> I agree.
> 
> 
> How about you provide proof otherwise? Show these "polls" and "build guides" that prove your point. You're the one who said there was value in being able to choose a _single_ cantrip over having access to any of a set of four. That's your opinion as well. Using the fallacious argument that "it's your opinion" is just a means to shut down argument because you can't be bothered providing the proof to back up your own claims.
> ...




There is no fallacy of "it's just your opinion". Pointing out you're substituting opinion for fact on a subjective matter is in fact rather sound argumentation. If you feel it shuts down the argument, that's probably a sign it's a really good retort. 

It IS in fact your opinion, right? It IS a subjective issue, right?  Assuming both answers are yes, it's not really well suited to some argument about what is best. It's like arguing which is the "best" color.  

But if you care to check build guides, you know where to find them. I put a lot of work into copying them over from the old WOTC boards, other people put a lot of work into making them, and then making more of them, and then us all collating them into a directory, and then still others turned it into a wiki page here recently. Go look if you're curious.  You can also search for the cantrips polls if you like. I see no point in chasing this subjective topic further though. You want to be "right" on a matter of subjective opinion. Good luck with that. 

For me, being able to choose provides the power of flexibility that the rigidity of the Eladrin doesn't provide. For you, the Eladrin happens to provide almost all of your favorite cantrips. It sounds like a good match for your tastes. That does not, however, mean your opinion is universal or even well shared by a majority such that it is overpowered simply because you happen to like those cantrips.

And if you think the burden of proof is on me to prove you wrong, you are incorrect. You are the one that made the claim it's "Massively" overpowered because it provides "the best" cantrips. The burden is on you to prove they are considered "the best", not on me to disprove your bald assertion


----------



## dropbear8mybaby (Sep 12, 2017)

Mistwell said:


> There is no fallacy of "it's just your opinion". Pointing out you're substituting opinion for fact on a subjective matter is in fact rather sound argumentation.



Yes, it is a fallacy. You're using it as a reason to win an argument when the reason doesn't invalidate the opinion in the first place because you're using your own opinion as a counter-argument. That's an illogical and unrelated conclusion.



Mistwell said:


> But if you care to check build guides, you know where to find them.



As I thought. You can't be bothered to back up your opinion that my opinion is wrong, and so you just claim that it is and end all argument, perceiving yourself as the victor when you haven't actually done anything other than say, "My opinion is better than yours, so nyah!"


----------



## maceochaid (Sep 12, 2017)

I think they should just commit to Eladrin being Charisma bumped. Storm and Wild Sorcerers fit their theme perfectly, while Feylock is tied to their fluff. With Bards being full casters, divided between Gishes and Extra Magicy secrets they have plenty of juicy full caster options. The Int bump made sense in 4E because they were sort of the High Elves, but now 5e has High Elves.


----------



## Mistwell (Sep 12, 2017)

dropbear8mybaby said:


> Yes, it is a fallacy. You're using it as a reason to win an argument when the reason doesn't invalidate the opinion in the first place because you're using your own opinion as a counter-argument. That's an illogical and unrelated conclusion.




You know the word "fallacy" has a meaning, right? There are defined fallacies. Which fallacy did I make? None of them match the definition you're giving, so what fallacy is it? I was not "invalidating" your opinion, i was disagreeing with it on a subjective topic and pointing out you were trying to pretend your subjective opinion was somehow objective truth. 




> As I thought. You can't be bothered to back up your opinion that my opinion is wrong, and so you just claim that it is and end all argument, perceiving yourself as the victor when you haven't actually done anything other than say, "My opinion is better than yours, so nyah!"




Where did you begin to support your opinion as fact in the first place? I don't have to refute something you have not supported to begin with. I am still waiting for you to provide even a scintilla of support for your claim these are considered to be "the best" cantrips by D&D players. 

Tell you what, why don't we see if a bunch of people experience the eladrin as "massively overpowered", m'kay? That's really all that matters on a topic like this. I am betting very few find your speculation is well founded in play. You apparently disagree. Let's find out.


----------



## gyor (Sep 12, 2017)

vincegetorix said:


> I'll start working on new characters concept right away since there's still time before we start our new OotA campaign next week.
> - Githyanki Undying Warlock (the Lich Queen), Blade Pact (silver great sword)
> - Githyanki Horizon walker, FE: Aberration
> - Githyanki Eldritch Knight
> ...




 Eldarin Feyknight (oath of the Ancients) 

 You can share the effect of misty step with you steed from Find Steed spell.


----------



## Connorsrpg (Sep 12, 2017)

Really like the eladrin and the changing seasons a lot.

Not so hot on the Gith.

(If you are looking for an alternative to the gith, check out what we did some time ago: http://connorscampaigns.wikidot.com/d-d-races#gith. If you don't use drawbacks ignore them and drop a proficiency or something else).


----------



## dropbear8mybaby (Sep 12, 2017)

Mistwell said:


> There are defined fallacies. Which fallacy did I make?



And you know that the definitions are not the be all and end all, right? They're just common ones given a name. But since this is you just trying to divert away from the argument by not addressing the argument, I'm just going to put you on ignore from now on.


----------



## WayOfTheFourElements (Sep 12, 2017)

Overall, I like it.

Githyanki gaining both _jump_ and _misty step_ seems redundant. I'd probably switch out _misty step_ for something else, maybe _magic weapon_. The Githzerai look good, too.

I also like what they did with the Eladrin, but I almost wish it was its over race with more variance based on their seasonal attunement. Also, I'm not sure how _minor illusion_ is connected to spring. I probably would have chosen something more akin to _druidcraft _or even _prestidigitation_, instead. Reguardless, I find the shifting season idea inspiring and I am tempted to rewrite elves for my Lyoneese campaign setting with seasonal sub-races.


----------



## jmucchiello (Sep 12, 2017)

Gith are so 36 years ago. Why didn't they freshen them up with a few new subraces? Where are the Githxyzzy, Githwyao, and Githviter? All nine alignments must be served!


----------



## Yaarel (Sep 12, 2017)

Eladrin Elf: +2 Charisma
• Spring Court: +1 Dexterity
• Summer Court: +1 Strength
• Autumn Court: +1 Intelligence
• Winter Court: +1 Wisdom


----------



## jedijon (Sep 12, 2017)

I've never seen a more captive audience for a game of ping-pong - so while I've got no horse in that race (or any other sports metaphor) - can I ask why folks want a planar sourcebook?

Given that previous editions had them it seems like a hole. Right?

But the materials are there to tell cool adventures with or no? So, the planes. Every time this comes up in my campaigns I cringe.

Why are we leaving everything behind to go to a monochromatic place modeled on Christian heaven or hell? Okay - so everything's burning. Right? And we don't know anybody here.

That seems pretty goofy. I guess I've never wanted to stem the tide of invaders at the source. I've never wanted to go to a place I can't exist which wished I was gone already. So--the planes? You can have em!


----------



## fuindordm (Sep 12, 2017)

Eladrin is a pretty good take on a fey/sidhe elf, it gives mechanical support to the archetype of a passionate and volatile character without being overpowered.

The Gith are a bit bland... I'm all for giving them innate psionics but their specific powers and ribbons could have been chosen better to reflect their unique culture and environment.

For example, a defensive ability like Blur or 3E Entropic Shield is a better fit flavorwise for a monk who has learned to harness the powers of Limbo.


----------



## gyor (Sep 12, 2017)

jedijon said:


> I've never seen a more captive audience for a game of ping-pong - so while I've got no horse in that race (or any other sports metaphor) - can I ask why folks want a planar sourcebook?
> 
> Given that previous editions had them it seems like a hole. Right?
> 
> ...




 That is a poor understanding of the planes if you think they are a monochromatic place modelled on Christian After lives. 

 Christianity has some influence,  but so do far more sources. 

 Angels are based on Spiritualism,  aka New Age,  not traditional Christianity. 

 Mechanus is a plane of steam punk magical wonders. 

 Many other examples of the strange and wonderful,  not the least of which is Sigil itself.


----------



## Delazar78 (Sep 12, 2017)

jedijon said:


> I've never seen a more captive audience for a game of ping-pong - so while I've got no horse in that race (or any other sports metaphor) - can I ask why folks want a planar sourcebook?
> 
> Given that previous editions had them it seems like a hole. Right?
> 
> ...




Do you even Ysgard, bro!?


----------



## Charles Rampant (Sep 12, 2017)

I really like the Eladrin concept and fluff, but I agree with others who feel that it's overpowered. It's barely less powerful than many full races - just give it +2 Dex and you'd be done, nevermind the rest of the Elf abilities. It's especially problematic when the Elf subraces already have 'free cantrip' as part of a markedly less powerful package.

The Gith, by contrast... man, there's just something _missing_! They are awesomely cool races, with lots of fun fluff and a really unique place in the game, but this writeup just doesn't excite me at all. And I say that as someone who just finished a big Githyanki focused storyline, so I'm well versed in the race and their ethos and culture. They've taken the traits from the Monster Manual, and make a race that is mechanically fine, but just very dull.


----------



## Alexemplar (Sep 12, 2017)

jedijon said:


> I've never seen a more captive audience for a game of ping-pong - so while I've got no horse in that race (or any other sports metaphor) - can I ask why folks want a planar sourcebook?
> 
> Given that previous editions had them it seems like a hole. Right?
> 
> ...




   I don't care much for the usual D&D cosmology, but I do use some of the planar locations, effects, player options, items, and monsters for my own campaigns where the cosmology is much smaller in scope and places like Genies and the city of Brass, Deities and their seven heavens, and fairie demiplanes are places where you'll want to go to get certain information, spells, items, resources, or interact/negotiate with these creatures who are major players in the prime-material (and perfectly capable of being coerced/outwitted/defeated/killed).


----------



## kenmarable (Sep 12, 2017)

fuindordm said:


> Eladrin is a pretty good take on a fey/sidhe elf, it gives mechanical support to the archetype of a passionate and volatile character without being overpowered.
> 
> The Gith are a bit bland... I'm all for giving them innate psionics but their specific powers and ribbons could have been chosen better to reflect their unique culture and environment.
> 
> For example, a defensive ability like Blur or 3E Entropic Shield is a better fit flavorwise for a monk who has learned to harness the powers of Limbo.




Yes, these look like a lot of fan conversions - aka "What were their abilities before? Now, convert to 5e." I know it's a fine line between changing things too much and fans complaining and just doing a bland x-to-x conversion. The conversions I enjoy are typically more like looking at the concept of the race and then seeing how to best exemplify that concept with the new rules. 

The eladrin seasonal stuff definitely does that. But the gith conversions are... well, ok. If you were to just look at the mechanics, could you see what the personality and concept of the race is? 

That's one of the yardsticks I have for a good race (conversion or not). If you gave someone just the mechanics, could they get a feel for the flavor of the race?


----------



## Imaro (Sep 12, 2017)

jedijon said:


> I've never seen a more captive audience for a game of ping-pong - so while I've got no horse in that race (or any other sports metaphor) - can I ask why folks want a planar sourcebook?




Because...Planescape



jedijon said:


> Given that previous editions had them it seems like a hole. Right?




Well there's a nice primer in the DMG so no, not exactly a hole...



jedijon said:


> But the materials are there to tell cool adventures with or no? So, the planes. Every time this comes up in my campaigns I cringe.




Not sure why it makes you cringe but again... yes they are there to help have cool adventures... so again... because Planescape



jedijon said:


> Why are we leaving everything behind to go to a monochromatic place modeled on Christian heaven or hell? Okay - so everything's burning. Right? And we don't know anybody here.




Wait... that's not Planescape...



jedijon said:


> That seems pretty goofy. I guess I've never wanted to stem the tide of invaders at the source. I've never wanted to go to a place I can't exist which wished I was gone already. So--the planes? You can have em!




Well yes the planes being a monochromatic place modeled on Christian heaven or hell might seem goofy (though I think I could come up with some pretty cool adventures based on those places...I thought we were talking about Planescape...


----------



## Elon Tusk (Sep 12, 2017)

I've converted most of the humanoids in the MM and Volo's to PCs for my players.
My Githzerai based off of the MM looks almost identical to this one, give or take a stat mod.


----------



## kenmarable (Sep 12, 2017)

jedijon said:


> I've never seen a more captive audience for a game of ping-pong - so while I've got no horse in that race (or any other sports metaphor) - can I ask why folks want a planar sourcebook?
> 
> Given that previous editions had them it seems like a hole. Right?
> 
> ...




As others have said, the D&D outer planes are FAR much more than a Christian Heaven and Hell. It sounds like you might have had some bad experiences with planar gaming and only experienced a slight fraction of it. It's like starting to read Tolkien and thinking "This Shire place is boring. I don't get what the big deal is.", closing the book and moving on. 

If "so everything's burning" is all you have experience of the planes, then it would certainly seem monochromatic and boring. So that's understandable. You don't have to enjoy planar content in gaming, it's not for everyone. But sometime, I do hope you would at least consider looking into the larger expanse of the planes, especially if there is a future 5e product(s) there. Just like with both Bilbo and Frodo, the Shire might have a quaint little charm to it, but the real excitement happens when they leave and go out to the rest of the world. Having the PCs go to hell where everything is burning, sure maybe it's fun once, but if you go deeper there or to any of the many other planes, it is an extremely rich and exciting area of D&D to explore.

Still might not be for you, and that's fine. I just hope people aren't missing out because of misinformation. I guess a lot of adventures have tended to be "stop a demon invasion!" as the only very limited peak at the planes. That will definitely influence opinions of them.

Not saying it is the case here, but with Planescape coming up on its 25th anniversary and little official content for 3 editions now, I know there are a lot of gamers who have started playing long after Planescape ended. (Not that Planescape is all there is to the planes, but it is the richest and most detailed version of them.) I've been tempted to start an "Intro to Planescape" style blog/podcast/something. Hmm... might have to actually get around to that.


----------



## DEFCON 1 (Sep 12, 2017)

It's not surprising people think there's something "missing" with the Gith entry in the article... it's because it's true!  There is literally something missing!

The Eladrin section starts with several paragraphs of description of who they are as a race, and there follows a huge section on the eladrin's personality types.  And only after that do they give the game mechanics for the race.

Whereas the Gith are presented purely as their game stats.  That's it.  So _of course_ something feels missing, because no description of who they are as a people are presented, giving us the story and flavor of who they are and how their game mechanics are meant to be interpreted.

_Which is exactly what WotC wants for this part of the Gith playtest._

They don't want us critiquing the story aspects of these two subraces of Gith.  All they want is for us to look at where the ability score bonuses were placed, and how the game mechanics of _Decadent Mastery, Martial Prodigy, Githyanki Psionics, Monastic Training, and Githzerai Psionics_ all look... and for us to tell them whether there are any obvious problems with those features.  If there aren't, and no one comments in the upcoming survey "Hey, the problem with Monastic Training is--" blah blah blah... then they know they are on the right track with the mechanics and can _then_ focus on the story of the Gith race and make sure once that is in place that the game mechanics still align to it.

Obviously, because Eladrin have already had preliminary work done in the entry in the Dungeon Master's Guide, they are far enough along where WotC was fine giving us both story and mechanics together for us to critique.  Which is completely okay.


----------



## Greenmtn (Sep 12, 2017)

I'm surprised that the Githyari don't have long sword proficiency included in their Martial Prodigy trait.


----------



## Elon Tusk (Sep 12, 2017)

DEFCON 1 said:


> It's not surprising people think there's something "missing" with the Gith entry in the article... it's because it's true!  There is literally something missing!
> 
> The Eladrin section starts with several paragraphs of description of who they are as a race, and there follows a huge section on the eladrin's personality types.  And only after that do they give the game mechanics for the race.
> 
> ...




Gith description and backgrounds in 5e already exist in the Monster Manual in (2 pages worth); Eladrin had 3 paragraphs in the DMG and changed significantly..


----------



## kenmarable (Sep 12, 2017)

DEFCON 1 said:


> It's not surprising people think there's something "missing" with the Gith entry in the article... it's because it's true!  There is literally something missing!
> 
> The Eladrin section starts with several paragraphs of description of who they are as a race, and there follows a huge section on the eladrin's personality types.  And only after that do they give the game mechanics for the race.
> 
> ...




I think the issue with people finding them bland is not "there's no flavor text." It seems to me that it is more of an issue of:

_"Do you think these racial traits are balanced?"_ The answer may be yes for most people.

however

_"Do you think these racial traits best capture how this race should be portrayed?"_ For many that answer is no even if they answered yes to the above question. 

or even 

_"Do you think these racial traits are interesting and you would want to play a gith character?"_ For many that answer is no as well. 

So it's not that the flavor is missing from the race description, it is that many feel flavor is missing from the mechanics of the race itself. The mechanics may be well balanced and reasonable. But they may also be a bad fit conceptually OR just not all that interesting even separated from the history of the races.


----------



## Blue (Sep 12, 2017)

I misunderstood at first - Eladrin aren't a complete race, they are a subrace so they get everything a base elf gets.

Stupid overlook.  I'm posting my mistake in hopes that if others had the same thoughts they could be enlightened.


----------



## Yaarel (Sep 12, 2017)

Upgrading the High Elf with +2 Intelligence and +2 Dexterity balances similar to the Mountain Dwarf +2 Strength and +2 Constitution.

Where the Strength and heavy armor proficiency are moreorless redundant for this Dwarf, the Intelligence and cantrip are moreorless redundant for this Elf.

With +2 Intelligence, the High Elf can make an archetypal Wizard.


----------



## lowkey13 (Sep 12, 2017)

*Deleted by user*


----------



## schnee (Sep 12, 2017)

Gith are kinda meh. Boring. 

Where are the interesting ribbon abilities like Elven meditation? 

The armor is good for the Yanks, but Greatsword expertise isn't a given?  

I'd like to see something related to their Astral heritage. Advantage on Survival in the Astral? Eh.


----------



## Xeviat (Sep 12, 2017)

The gith both feel like they're missing something. I'm not interested in them looking at their stats. I'm not grabbed. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Yaarel (Sep 12, 2017)

I like sleek design. 

Inconsequential ribbon features, feel like unnecessary clutter to me.

I like to see the mechanics of a race or a class do something vivid, effectively and comprehensively.

My favorite mechanics actualize the flavor in a clear useful way.

The Wood Elf is an excellent design, for example. The mechanics work well together and express the flavor of a stealthy, precise, attunement with nature.



The Githzerai design fares ok. The Wisdom and the telepathic Detect Thoughts make sense for psionic flavor. Albeit, this particular spell seems underpowered, little more than an Insight skill check, but its Wisdom flavor makes sense.

The quasi-telekinetic Mage Hand works with the Psionic flavor. The quasi-telekinetic Shield synergizes mechanically with the AC bonus, and both flavors make sense in the context of Monk training, again working well with Wisdom flavor.



By contrast, the Githyanki design seems a bit disorganized and cluttered. The Githyanki has Strength with redundant medium armor proficiency, seemingly non-psionic. Then has quasi-telekinetic Mage Hand and Jump. Jump also seems underpowered. But this Jump is telekinetic? Or is it psychometabolic? Is the high Strength somehow psionic in a psychometabolic shapeshifting sense? The mechanics seem unclear. Why is there Misty Step? It seems mechanically redundant with Jump? Why the flavor? Maybe a limited form of planeshifting back and forth from the Astral Plane is more appropriate? Isnt Misty Step an Eladrin thing?


----------



## Chaosmancer (Sep 12, 2017)

I'm not sure how I feel about the Four Seasons. On one hand, a character who physically changes while their emotions change is cool, but that is something I'm adding. A character who spirals into different emotions, getting sad makes them go winter which makes them sadder let the spiral begin, is kind of interesting... but I'm also adding that in aren't I?

As written.... they just have fancy names for being angry or sad? I mean, you can interpret the changing of ideals and flaws as meaning it is extreme emotional change... but I could also play a dwarf who has extreme emotions, bouncing between despondency at the loss of life during a battle to rage when they think of an enemy to happiness when they get good ale. I mean, that isn't exactly something too difficult to do without pointing it out. 


So, I like it as a Fey/Dryad (I have a half-Dryad race I pilfered a while ago I've always meant to use) personality quirk, but it doesn't sell me on Eladrin. 


Not sure what to make of the Gith, I kind of like Githzerai for Mystics and Monks, but I don't really care or see them as something to be very excited about. They've never been part of my games so they are names in a book for me, nothing really to recommend them more than other races and classes that have more presence in my games.


----------



## MechaTarrasque (Sep 12, 2017)

Misty step is one and done (and takes a bonus action), and jump lasts for a while (and can be cast on other people), so I would see jump as something you are more likely to cast before combat starts and MS as something you cast if things start looking bad and misty step (bonus action) plus the dash action (or jump if you already cast jump) to maximize your retreat.

I think the Githyanki are built around the notion that the PC would be a Gish or as close as you can be with PC classes (possibly a Gish fighter subclass could come in a future book), and Eldritch Knight is pretty much as close as you can get.  The EK isn't exactly overflowing with spell slots, so giving racial spells helps with that (and fills the Githyanki as TK users).  Alternatively you could be a medium armor wearing Immortal Mystic (which is as close as you can get to a Gish psychically), and you don't have to take the Celerity discipline to be extra mobile.


----------



## Tony Vargas (Sep 13, 2017)

MechaTarrasque said:


> I think the Githyanki are built around the notion that the PC would be a Gish ...



 Apropos, that.


----------



## Yaarel (Sep 13, 2017)

For a 5e Githyanki Gish, there are more nuanced mechanics to more carefully match the flavor.

If the 5e Gish is an actual ‘Fighter/Magic-User’, in other words an Eldritch Knight, then the arcane flavor prevails, and the psionic flavor feels extraneous.

It might be better to downplay or even eliminate psionic flavor for the Githyanki. Even necromantic flavor might be more appropriate because of the Githyanki lich queen.



With the Githzerai becoming mental ability monkish warriors, the psionic flavor fits well, Jedi-style.


----------



## cbwjm (Sep 13, 2017)

The more I think about it, the more I think that the Eladrin should gain +1 Charisma instead of +1 Intelligence. Make them that charisma spellcasting stat specialist (even if it does only really affect it for 3 levels, then an ASI catches it right up). Eladrin in pre-4e tended to have high charisma instead of intelligence, even in 2e when the spellcasting stat for arcane magic was intelligence, the various eladrin would often have higher charisma. The previous version in the DMG I didn't really think about it, but this version seems to be closer to the classic notion of the Eladrin and I think Charisma might be a better fit for them. I find the associated fluff also inspires a bit of world building, I could have done this anyway but now I also have a mechanical reason for it.

The Four Eladrin courts: Lady of Autumn, Lord of Winter, Lady of Spring, Lord of Summer. 
Their Servants: The Lord of Winter is served by the Prince of Frost, and the Lady of Sorrow. The Lady of Spring is served by Puck, an eladrin who typifies mischief and merriment. The Lord of Summer is served by the Shining Legion, knights known for their skill at arms. Who is the Lady of Autumn served by? I have no idea, this was all just off the top of my head. 

I'm just really loving the change to Eladrin. I might even bring in the old names of Tulani, Ghaeles, Bralani, Novieres, and Shieres. The fact that it has got me thinking about world building means that, to me, this is a positive change to the elven subrace.


----------



## Argyle King (Sep 13, 2017)

I'm looking forward to an Eladrin Warlock of Cthulu combining the changing seasons personality with insanity.


----------



## Yaarel (Sep 13, 2017)

The Drow Elf is already +2 Dexterity +1 Charisma. It would be annoying if the Eladrin Elf is the same.

The Eladrin Elf that works best is +2 Charisma. A real enchanter, a real Bard, an archetypal mage.


----------



## cbwjm (Sep 13, 2017)

A +1 or +2 doesn't really make much difference in the long run, often not even much when starting out, and I'd personally rather not change the current structure where the base elf race gives +2 dexterity. Besides, currently there are two elf subraces which grant a +1 intelligence so why not two for charisma instead.


----------



## Yaarel (Sep 13, 2017)

Charisma +2 is the best way to design the Eladrin Elf of the Feywild.

Whether +2 or +1 makes enormous difference in the flavor of the race.

When it is appropriate to emphasize an other ability, it is appropriate. D&D tradition includes elf races without Dexterity.

Even D&D 5e already has elf races that are +2 Wisdom, for the Zendikar setting.

The Gith race demonstrates it is acceptable design for subraces to distinguish from each other by different +2 ability score improvements.

Personally, I am dissatisfied with the +2 Dexterity as the only trait for every elf concept and would be sickened to see an other elf with it. Dexterity may be gracefulness of fine movements.

 Charisma is gracefulness of the spirit, art, charm, and beauty.


----------



## Ninja-radish (Sep 13, 2017)

I love that there's finally a Strength/Int race. Very cool.


----------



## The-Magic-Sword (Sep 13, 2017)

I would actually be very much in favor of Eladrin being Charisma only, which is weird since I liked them as intelligence just fine in 4e. I think it would have two major benefits 

1. It would help to reduce the amount of overlap between the High Elf and the Eladrin, which is important if we're going to have both. Earlier in the thread someone was insisting that the seasonal cantrips is a direct upgrade to the high elf cantrip, I disagree due to the fact that I feel there are plenty of cantrips one would want outside of that set, however it does remain that it is extremely similar, so the stat change would help to give them unique, complementary niches.  

2. It would offer the Dark Elf some competition for charisma-elf race, notably the dark elf is one of those races that it seems like some DMs might forbid you from playing for alignment reasons, or a player might prefer not to use it as a result of sunlight sensitivity. Having a charisma-elf without those hangups would be healthy for the game, I also think the Drow (when not in sunlight) is strong enough to be indisputably equal to the eladrin, whereas I feel as if the high elf might be more negatively impacted. 

it also has a minor benefit of not breaking with the fact that the player's handbook races don't have a flex stat, which isn't hugely important (and i'm sure some people would prefer they all did) but might be a concern.


----------



## Mistwell (Sep 13, 2017)

Yaarel said:


> Eladrin Elf: +2 Charisma
> • Spring Court: +1 Dexterity
> • Summer Court: +1 Strength
> • Autumn Court: +1 Intelligence
> • Winter Court: +1 Wisdom






Yaarel said:


> The Drow Elf is already +2 Dexterity +1 Charisma. It would be annoying if the Eladrin Elf is the same.
> 
> The Eladrin Elf that works best is +2 Charisma. A real enchanter, a real Bard, an archetypal mage.




Now, unless I am mistaken, I slightly get the impression you want the Eladrin to have +2 charisma? 

Are you under the impression that, if you keep repeating this over and over again in this thread, it will somehow make it happen? That it's like some sort of poll where you can vote again and again by just saying the same thing over and over again using slightly different words or something? 

Dude, Yaarel, ANYONE in this thread is aware you want them to have +2 charisma. You really don't need to say it anymore. We get it. We allllll get it. You want them to have a +2 charisma. Message communicated and received. Roger that, Yaarel wants them to have +2 charisma.  Understood!

And I don't even disagree. I think that would be fine. I am just not sure why you keep saying it?

[For those who missed it...which must be someone just reading the thread for the first time at this point...this is literally Yaarel's 5th and then 6th post out of 100 total posts in the thread at that point where he's just saying, using slightly different words, that he wants the Eladrin to have a +2 charisma  ]


----------



## Tony Vargas (Sep 13, 2017)

Mistwell said:


> Are you under the impression that, if you keep repeating this over and over again ... it will somehow make it happen?



 It's not like that hope is without precedent.


----------



## DEFCON 1 (Sep 13, 2017)

Tony's right! And he should know... it's due to his tireless advocation of Warlords that 5E has that class... uh... um... I mean... it has... errrrrrrr....

 

Sent from my SM-J320V using EN World mobile app


----------



## Yaarel (Sep 13, 2017)

It would be cool to see an effective nonmagical healer in 5e, with carefully understood flavor, in the form of a Warlord.

It can specialize in the ability to avoid that lethal strike that happens at the moment of reaching 0 hit points.


----------



## Mistwell (Sep 13, 2017)

Yaarel said:


> It would be cool to see an effective nonmagical healer in 5e, with carefully understood flavor, in the form of a Warlord.
> 
> It can specialize in the ability to avoid that lethal strike that happens at the moment of reaching 0 hit points.




Maybe they can have an inherent +2 to charisma, unless they are Eladrin?

[I'd like a Warlord too by the way]


----------



## Yaarel (Sep 13, 2017)

True about Charisma. It makes sense for authoritative coaching to help teammates stay alert and skillful during combat, to inspire morale, confidence, and perseverance, and even to encourage a placebo effect. Charisma can be an important ability for certain Warlord builds.


----------



## Argyle King (Sep 13, 2017)

Side note: 3rd Edition kinda had a Warlord too.  It was the Marshal class.


----------



## The-Magic-Sword (Sep 13, 2017)

Not to put too fine a point on it, the subrace would be overloaded if it was actually +2 Charisma- it is quite strong as it stands, with a free non-counterspellable teleport and a selection of good cantrips. I'd almost be tempted to make sure it only gets +1 of Charisma instead of a choice, if only to reduce it's versatility.

The Dwarf subrace that gives +2/+2 can afford to do so because the strength builds that want it have no use for the armor feature that it offers since they usually get it from their class (or have some relevant AC feature)- for a significant portion of characters the extra point is it's only subrace feature with a precious few builds able to take full advantage of it. 

+2 Charisma on the Eladrin would be taking an already powerful subrace and jacking it through the roof, it'd be very hard to justify (from a mechanical perspective) Swashbucklers, bards, etc. as anything else- and the game is currently pretty good about not doing that.


----------



## maceochaid (Sep 14, 2017)

The discussion of the High Elf NOT being an archetypal wizard because it gets only a +1 to Int seems silly. With the standard array, or the point buy you are still generally looking at a 16/16 Int and Dex, which means you are as capable as the most capable human + you have a little extra dodge and AC in your step. (I also like that many of the NPC's have odd numbered stats so High Elf Mage NPC's are slightly more potent). The one thing I CAN'T see as archetypal is the Elven longswordsman. I try and try to make a longsword wielding High Elf, and say "I don't care about optimization I just want it for story reasons" but I still can't get over the trade off and arm my High Elf warriors with rapiers. Not to get too far off track, but if Fighter/Mage was the idea behind the race "Elves who are proficient in Longswords can use their dexterity score for attacks and damage with longswords" (Notice this is not giving them finesse) is a much better move, and wish they had done that. Alas I don't think they will ever go back to redo that.


----------



## Tony Vargas (Sep 14, 2017)

maceochaid said:


> but if Fighter/Mage was the idea behind the race "Elves who are proficient in Longswords can use their dexterity score for attacks and damage with longswords" (Notice this is not giving them finesse) is a much better move



 They could even have just gone with a note:  "Elves make longswords of such surpassing elegance that they count as rapiers."


----------



## maceochaid (Sep 14, 2017)

Tony Vargas said:


> They could even have just gone with a note:  "Elves make longswords of such surpassing elegance that they count as rapiers."




Sure sure, but I would like it this way, because it would give Elves the possibility of using the versatility trait on the longsword, which would give them a little bump, without really overpowering anything. Just a +1 damage.


----------



## cbwjm (Sep 14, 2017)

I remember the early playtests had elves use a higher die size when using the classic elven weapons. Dwarves had a similar bonus for hammers and axes.


----------



## Azzy (Sep 14, 2017)

cbwjm said:


> I remember the early playtests had elves use a higher die size when using the classic elven weapons. Dwarves had a similar bonus for hammers and axes.




Yep. I liked that, shame it got tossed.


----------



## Dax Doomslayer (Sep 15, 2017)

cbwjm said:


> I remember the early playtests had elves use a higher die size when using the classic elven weapons. Dwarves had a similar bonus for hammers and axes.




Ohhh - I like that.  I've been grappling with potentially adding 'racial' weapons like in 3e but this may be a better approach really.  Did each race have a specific weapon?  Out of curiosity do you recall what the other races had or was it just Elves & Dwarves?


----------



## cbwjm (Sep 15, 2017)

Dax Doomslayer said:


> Ohhh - I like that.  I've been grappling with potentially adding 'racial' weapons like in 3e but this may be a better approach really.  Did each race have a specific weapon?  Out of curiosity do you recall what the other races had or was it just Elves & Dwarves?




From memory it was just the elves and dwarves having bonuses for their racial weapons which became their racial weapon training in the current edition. My suggestion would be any race that has bonus weapon proficiencies gains a die increase.


----------



## NaturalZero (Sep 15, 2017)

In my homebrew setting, I was toying with making elves into 4 subraces based on the seasons (in lieu of the standard subs), so I simultaneously love and completely hate that they've chosen to run with the same concept!

I really dislike the 5e convention of slapping generic spells onto races and pretending they're unique racial features though, and i'd much rather the mechanical expression of the season flavor be minor and useful, but detached from the ubiquitous "everything uses the same spells" paradigm that pervades the system. Fey Step is awesome and useful, but I'd almost be willing to chuck it out and power up the season mechanics, making that the race's central theme.


----------



## Cap'n Kobold (Sep 15, 2017)

cbwjm said:


> From memory it was just the elves and dwarves having bonuses for their racial weapons which became their racial weapon training in the current edition. My suggestion would be any race that has bonus weapon proficiencies gains a die increase.



 Personally, I'm not a fan of that: It pushes characters of those races into a limited weapon selection rather than choosing from a wider range.


----------



## Alexemplar (Sep 15, 2017)

Cap'n Kobold said:


> Personally, I'm not a fan of that: It pushes characters of those races into a limited weapon selection rather than choosing from a wider range.




  That's very much the intention, at least when it comes to Elves and Dwarves. It helps push them towards weapons that their people are known to favor above all others by making them more attractive than other weapons that- while usually superior mechanically- aren't commonly used by Elves/Dwarves.


----------



## Dax Doomslayer (Sep 15, 2017)

Thanks for the reply cbwjm.  Out of curiosity, did that also include bows?


----------



## Azzy (Sep 15, 2017)

Dax Doomslayer said:


> Thanks for the reply cbwjm.  Out of curiosity, did that also include bows?




Yup. 

"*Elf Weapon Training:* When you attack with a longsword, a shortbow, or a longbow with which you have proficiency, the damage die for that weapon increases by one step: from d6 to d8, or d8 to d10."


----------



## Dax Doomslayer (Sep 16, 2017)

Thanks Azzy.  Wow - so a longbow is a d10 now.  It is a two handed weapon I guess although ranged attacks are already at an advantage.   Hmmm....


----------



## Remathilis (Sep 16, 2017)

Dax Doomslayer said:


> Thanks Azzy.  Wow - so a longbow is a d10 now.  It is a two handed weapon I guess although ranged attacks are already at an advantage.   Hmmm....




Part of the reason they dumped it; while it encouraged races to use their racial weapons, it was because those weapons became almost overpowered in their hands. I mean, a halflings could dual wield d8 short swords, while a human would need a feat to dual-wield rapiers in the same manner. 

Neat idea, but I wasn't sad to see it go.


----------



## Dax Doomslayer (Sep 16, 2017)

I could definitely see that Remathilis.  What I'm thinking of doing is perhaps adding a racial feat with certain 'exotic' racial weapons and also allowing this for those 'named' weapons.  So an elf would get proficiency with something like the martial weapons:  Elven Thinblade, Elven Courtblade; Elven Doublebow (making up names) and with longsword/longbow/shortsword/shortbow get the bigger damage die.  The new weapons will have maybe some sort of additional maneuver or damage perhaps.  I haven't really thought it through though...


----------



## Alexemplar (Sep 16, 2017)

Remathilis said:


> Part of the reason they dumped it; while it encouraged races to use their racial weapons, it was because those weapons became almost overpowered in their hands. I mean, a halflings could dual wield d8 short swords, while a human would need a feat to dual-wield rapiers in the same manner.
> 
> Neat idea, but I wasn't sad to see it go.




   It's only an average of about +1 damage, and I doubt people would have complained as much about Elves, Halflings, and Dwarves recieving a +1 bonus to damage rolls when using their races' favored weapons.  

  Or maybe they would.  People make a big hullabaloo over +/- 1's in D&D considering how much variance the dice usually impart.


----------



## Cap'n Kobold (Sep 16, 2017)

Alexemplar said:


> That's very much the intention, at least when it comes to Elves and Dwarves. It helps push them towards weapons that their people are known to favor above all others by making them more attractive than other weapons that- while usually superior mechanically- aren't commonly used by Elves/Dwarves.



 Hmm. Most of the elven weapons and a lot of the dwarven ones are already the mechanically superior ones I feel. The only thing that is missing is a Great Weapon option.



Dax Doomslayer said:


> I could definitely see that Remathilis.  What I'm thinking of doing is perhaps adding a racial feat with certain 'exotic' racial weapons and also allowing this for those 'named' weapons.  So an elf would get proficiency with something like the martial weapons:  Elven Thinblade, Elven Courtblade; Elven Doublebow (making up names) and with longsword/longbow/shortsword/shortbow get the bigger damage die.  The new weapons will have maybe some sort of additional maneuver or damage perhaps.  I haven't really thought it through though...



 Introducing new weapons is tricky: you have to explain why and how these weapons are different to ones already in the weapons table. If they have superior stats and/or capabilities, you also have to explain why these weapons aren't trained in and used widely.
(Excluding actual special/magical weapons of course.)


----------



## Dax Doomslayer (Sep 16, 2017)

Agreed Cap'n.  I think having a feat for it may provide a gate to it and tying it to the race also may help there.  Otherwise they attack at disadvantage without the feat perhaps.  I guess I should start another thread as this now is somewhat off topic.  My apologies to the OP.


----------



## Mouseferatu (Sep 17, 2017)

The thing about racial weapon training is that there are all sorts of tiny little benefits you could include that are less potent (and potentially more interesting) than simple bonuses to attack or damage. Things that would justify the race leaning in that direction, but aren't so good that they would be overpowered, or would punish PCs for using different weapons than their race prefers.

Just for instance, off top of my head:

*You're just a hair faster with those weapons. +1 to Initiative if it's already in your hand, and +1 to hit with opportunity attacks.

*You're just a bit more accurate at distance. Add +10 feet to the short range increment if the weapon is shot or thrown.

*You hit just a bit harder when you land a solid blow. You gain a small bonus to damage on critical hits.

Little things like any one or two of the above would add more mechanical weight than just saying, for flavor, "dwarves like hammers" (or whatever), but wouldn't remotely unbalance anything.


----------



## dropbear8mybaby (Sep 17, 2017)

Or, they could've simply said that elves can treat longswords as finesse weapons.


----------



## Dax Doomslayer (Sep 17, 2017)

I like those Ari - thanks.  I agree that I'd prefer more things like what you listed vs. strictly more damage - especially if there is no feat involved.  If there is a feat involved, probably a little more damage should be added or maybe some sort of maneuver type of thing.  I appreciate the input.  I did start a separate thread for this so as not to take this one over.  I appreciate your input.


----------



## Dax Doomslayer (Sep 17, 2017)

This isn't a bad idea dropbear.  Thanks for this!


----------



## Yaarel (Sep 17, 2017)

Am I understanding correctly the 5e version of Elven Chain? (SRD, DMG).

An Elf who wears Elven Chain cannot benefit from high Dexterity (any Dex +3 or higher)?

If so, that is unacceptable.

Even Mithril Chain disallows full Dexterity.



I want both the Elven Chain and the Elven Longsword to benefit fully from Dexterity and be a normal part of the Elven arsenal, at least for the High Elf.

The Wood Elf feels better with Longbow and an Elven Spear that benefits from Dexterity.

Drow Elf has its Handbow and light blades.



A High Elf with Dexterity +5 and a proper Elven Chain with Base 13 AC that allows full Dexterity, totals 18 AC. That is just the Elven equivalent of Plate, and is balanced. Elven Chain with full Dexterity is only one point better than Studded Leather.


----------



## Yaarel (Sep 17, 2017)

*High Elf*
+2 Dexterity Score
+2 Intelligence Score (!)
Darkvision
Fey Ancestry
Trance
Languages: Elven, Sylvan, and Common
Cantrip
High Elf Weapon Training (!) (longsword proficiency, treat as finesse weapon and spell focus)
High Elf Armor Training (!) (proficiency with Elven Chain: base AC is 13 + Dexterity)



(No Perception proficiency − leave that for the Wood Elf) (?)


----------



## Charles Rampant (Sep 17, 2017)

You know, I don't think I've ever met someone so fixated on Elven dexterity. And I say that as someone who owns a Warhammer Elves army!


----------



## Cap'n Kobold (Sep 17, 2017)

Charles Rampant said:


> You know, I don't think I've ever met someone so fixated on Elven dexterity. And I say that as someone who owns a Warhammer Elves army!



 Its a powerful stat: making it higher makes the race overall better.

Particularly if you can optimise them even further by making it your main attack stat for weapons that would normally required a different ability score.

And then make them even better by potentially granting them a better AC potential than other races can achieve while still having all the benefits of concentrating on Dexterity.*

*Admittedly, this isn't a major issue since Elven Chain is a magic item and a DM can just ensure that an Elf character simply never gets access to a set of Elven Chain.


----------



## Cap'n Kobold (Sep 17, 2017)

Yaarel said:


> Am I understanding correctly the 5e version of Elven Chain? (SRD, DMG).
> 
> An Elf who wears Elven Chain cannot benefit from high Dexterity (any Dex +3 or higher)?
> 
> ...



 Why and to whom is it "unacceptable"?

Dex mods being affected by armour is one of those mechanics that don't always make sense realistically, but are there for game balance purposes.
Mithral armour may not allow full Dex mod, but it also removes the strength requirement. That is still a pretty good bonus.
Given we're talking about specific magical items here, it probably makes more sense to change the text of the item than the actual race description. In the majority of cases (particularly if it grants them more powerful capabilities) its pretty irrelevant because an Elf character is never going to get their hands on elven or mithril armour.




> I want both the Elven Chain and the Elven Longsword to benefit fully from Dexterity and be a normal part of the Elven arsenal, at least for the High Elf.
> 
> The Wood Elf feels better with Longbow and an Elven Spear that benefits from Dexterity.



 Why the obsession that everything an elf uses has to ride off Dexterity? Why do you regard elves as having to be able to use longswords and spears with Dexterity?
_How _do you regard then as achieving this with weapons that aren't Finesse?



> A High Elf with Dexterity +5 and a proper Elven Chain with Base 13 AC that allows full Dexterity, totals 18 AC. That is just the Elven equivalent of Plate, and is balanced. Elven Chain with full Dexterity is only one point better than Studded Leather.



 Giving an AC equivalent to that of plate with no investment in Str is not balanced.


----------



## Remathilis (Sep 17, 2017)

Yaarel said:


> *High Elf*
> +2 Dexterity Score
> +2 Intelligence Score (!)
> Darkvision
> ...




1.) So at this point, to give the +2 Int, we'd have to re-write every race that has come out (with the exception of Mountain dwarf) to give them +2 to their secondary bumps as well, making them all +2/+2. 

2.) why the obsession with longswords as finesse weapons when rapiers are the same damage dice. The only reason I can see is the abundance of magical longswords vs rapiers. 

3.) Now, I'm confused on how you plan to implement "elven chain" in the game. It would have to be a mundane armor (as in, non-magical and purchasable) otherwise it would be a useless feature for a majority of campaigns (tantamount to giving dragonborn proficiency in "holy avengers"). So we are going to add a new "light" armor one point better than studded leather. Which is fine, but also keep in mind there is no reason why anyone else proficient in light armor (fighters, rangers, paladins, barbarians, rogues, warlocks, clerics, bards, and mountain dwarves(!) ) couldn't use it either; in fact it would be bar-none the best armor for rogues, bards, warlocks and rangers. Unless you are  going to come up with some bullstone reason why nobody but elves can wear it and how no one can just kill and elf wearing it and take his armor. (esp lithe races like half-elves, tritons, or tabaxi). Of course, being mundane, anyone could theoretically purchase it (since its a powerful light armor that could rival plate, 700-1,000 gp is a good amount). 

Ultimately, your "fix" isn't much better than the original race; you upped their Int by a point and gave them essentially rapier proficiency and proficiency in a single light armor (which is bound to be expensive anyway), while removing one of the best skill proficiency in the game (Perception) and fixing their bonus language to a mostly useless one (considering how they could pick, draconic, orc, abyssal, goblin or a dozen other more useful ones than Sylvan).


----------



## Remathilis (Sep 17, 2017)

Cap'n Kobold said:


> Giving an AC equivalent to that of plate with no investment in Str is not balanced.




Not really...

I mean half-plate with a 14 Dex is AC 17, which is one point less than full and has 0 Strength requirement. To get to 18, the elven chain wearer would need a 20 Dex, which is a significantly higher investment than a 14 Dex (half plate) or a 15 Str (full plate). Hell, Studded leather with a 20 Dex is still AC 17. Its biggest advantage would be that it probably wouldn't have disadvantage to stealth. 

Its power-creep, sure. But its hardly game-breaking.


----------



## Scoobs (Sep 17, 2017)

Another elf subrace with high dex? Whooooahh  haha

Might run my next lock as an Archfey with this.


----------



## Yaarel (Sep 17, 2017)

Remathilis said:


> 1.) So at this point, to give the +2 Int, we'd have to re-write every race that has come out (with the exception of Mountain dwarf) to give them +2 to their secondary bumps as well, making them all +2/+2.




The Mountain Dwarf is *balanced* with the additional +2 ability score.

By contrast, the Hill Dwarf is one of the more powerful race options and is already balanced with the additional +1 ability score − and would become imbalanced if it increased to +2.

Similarly, the Wood Elf is one of the more powerful race options, and is already balanced with the additional +1 ability.

By contrast, the High Elf is one of the substandard race options, and becomes *balanced* when increasing its current +1 to a +2 ability score.


----------



## Yaarel (Sep 17, 2017)

Remathilis said:


> 2.) why the obsession with longswords as finesse weapons when rapiers are the same damage dice. The only reason I can see is the abundance of magical longswords vs rapiers.




Why finesse longswords? Mainly plot protection.

Whatever the weapon it needs to make sense within a high Dexterity culture. It strains credulity that a Non-strength Elf subrace would be hurling rock boulders as the cultural weapon of choice.

It could be, the finesse rapier is the cultural weapon for the High Elf. But personally, the rapier cannot feel ‘elven’ to me. It cannot even feel ‘medievalesque’ to me. The rapier is a renaissance weapon.

I dont mind the Drow wielding the rapier, because they have a weird, exotic, mysterious, remote culture. If they have a weird weapon, fine. At least it makes sense in the Drow high Dexterity culture.

D&D tradition has always associated the High Elf with the longsword (even after it makes less sense when finesse weapons became available in D&D). Instead of ending this tradition, just allow the High Elf to apply the finesse property to it because of the famous whirling dancing fighting-style.

Mechanically, there is no difference between the finesse rapier and the finesse longsword, except that the finesse longsword can be used versatilely with both hands if sacrificing the use of a shield. Which also feels appropriate to the high Dexterity Elf.


----------



## Yaarel (Sep 17, 2017)

Remathilis said:


> 3.) Now, I'm confused on how you plan to implement "elven chain" in the game. It would have to be a mundane armor (as in, non-magical and purchasable) otherwise it would be a useless feature for a majority of campaigns (tantamount to giving dragonborn proficiency in "holy avengers"). So we are going to add a new "light" armor one point better than studded leather. Which is fine, but also keep in mind there is no reason why anyone else proficient in light armor (fighters, rangers, paladins, barbarians, rogues, warlocks, clerics, bards, and mountain dwarves(!) ) couldn't use it either; in fact it would be bar-none the best armor for rogues, bards, warlocks and rangers. Unless you are  going to come up with some bullstone reason why nobody but elves can wear it and how no one can just kill and elf wearing it and take his armor. (esp lithe races like half-elves, tritons, or tabaxi). Of course, being mundane, anyone could theoretically purchase it (since its a powerful light armor that could rival plate, 700-1,000 gp is a good amount).




I see the capacity to benefit from High Elven Chain as requiring specific proficiency. ‘Elven Armored’ could even be a half feat. Anyone who takes this feat is mastering the High Elf fighting style. Maybe the feat grants the use of the longsword with finesse and casting focus as the other half of the feat.

But the High Elf grows up in such armor, and gets it as a cultural feature without necessarily gaining proficiency with other kinds of light armor. It reminds me of the horseback cultures that grow up in the saddle. Or kids today who grow up with technology.

If necessary, it is even possible that the full use of High Elven Armor is in fact a subtle form of magic. Maybe able to employ any kind of chain. But for now, I like the flavor of the especially fine and supple Elven Chain, and its use in a distinctive Dexterity fighting style matches well enough with the D&D tradition.





Remathilis said:


> Ultimately, your "fix" isn't much better than the original race; you upped their Int by a point and gave them essentially rapier proficiency and proficiency in a single light armor (which is bound to be expensive anyway), while removing one of the best skill proficiency in the game (Perception) and fixing their bonus language to a mostly useless one (considering how they could pick, draconic, orc, abyssal, goblin or a dozen other more useful ones than Sylvan).




It might be, the High Elf balance can keep the Perception proficiency. Tho, perhaps an Intelligence skill makes more sense. Maybe Arcana, plus the ability to use it to detect the presence of magic.

If players feel the flavor of the Perception skill is important for the High Elf to have, I can live with it. But personally, I dont mind it being a Wood Elf thing.



Edit.

Actually, granting the Wood Elf the Perception Wisdom skill and the High Elf the Investigation Intelligence skill, seems like an easy solution. Perception is better, but Investigation is useful.



Together, the light Elven Chain (only one point better than Studded) and the finesse Longsword (same as Rapier), lack a significant increase in power. But their synergy with Dexterity is valuable, and helps implement the flavor of a precise-moving race.


----------



## Remathilis (Sep 17, 2017)

Yaarel said:


> I see the capacity to benefit from High Elven Chain as requiring specific proficiency. ‘Elven Armored’ could even be a half feat. Anyone who takes this feat is mastering the High Elf fighting style. Maybe the feat grants the use of the longsword with finesse and casting focus as the other half of the feat.
> 
> But the High Elf grows up in such armor, and gets it as a cultural feature without necessarily gaining proficiency with other kinds of light armor. It reminds me of the horseback cultures that grow up in the saddle. Or kids today who grow up with technology.
> 
> If necessary, it is even possible that the full use of High Elven Armor is in fact a subtle form of magic. Maybe able to employ any kind of chain. But for now, I like the flavor of the especially fine and supple Elven Chain, and its use in a distinctive Dexterity fighting style matches well enough with the D&D tradition.




Again, we're talking about an armor that stats are pretty much this, right?

Elven Chain 
Type: Light amor
Cost: 750-1,500 gp
AC: 13 +  Dex modifier
Strength --
Stealth --
Weight: 10-20 lbs 

I'm not seeing why that would need a special proficiency, especially considering Dwarven Spiked Leather (SCAG) doesn't. (You can wear it if you are proficient in medium armor, but don't get the attack ability with it unless you're a battlerager). Anyone proficient in light should be able to get it. You can flavor it all you want with elven tradition and subtle magics, but in the end its just a new light armor and there is no reason why other races couldn't wear it as long as they too are proficient in light armor.

I'm not saying its a bad addition to the game, but there is no reason that anyone else proficient in light armor can't use it as well, except for "its elven". And honestly, I don't want to return to the era of Mein Alf having all the best toys again.


----------



## SkidAce (Sep 17, 2017)

Yaarel said:


> Mechanically, there is no difference between the finesse rapier and the finesse longsword, except that the finesse longsword can be used versatilely with both hands if sacrificing the use of a shield. Which also feels appropriate to the high Dexterity Elf.




Thats actually not a bad idea.

That would allow me to get rid of some of the special elven weapons I customized.


----------



## Yaarel (Sep 17, 2017)

Remathilis said:


> Again, we're talking about an armor that stats are pretty much this, right?
> 
> Elven Chain
> Type: Light armor
> ...




The way I am currently looking at it, the Elven Chain is a cultural feature − so it is ok for Non-High-Elves to access Elven Chain if they access the High Elf culture to learn its fighting style.

In other words, I am looking at the Elven Chain as in the category of an ‘exotic’ armor, that requires a special proficiency. Similarly, light armor proficiency fails to grant medium armor proficiency. The Elven Chain is neither normal light armor, nor is it medium armor. So it requires its own kind of proficiency. The armor is metal, but its suppleness makes it flimsy, and normally less useful, unless mastering a special fighting style that is fast enough and precise enough to take advantage of its properties, maneuvering to make weapons glance across rather than achieve impact. So, the proficiency represents the knowledge of a special fighting style that emphasizes high Dexterity techniques.

The question is, does the Fighter class *automatically* know all ‘exotic’ weapons and armors? For now, this approach says, no.

If an ‘exotic’ category feels to much like a feat tax, then a door that is better to not open, there are other ways to handle it. One idea is to simply move the chain shirt (but not the full chain suit) into the Light Armor category allowing full Dex, and be done with it. Similarly, the plate breastplate (but not the full plate suit) is able to stay int the Medium Armor category.

Alternatively, the way that the High Elf uses chain is a kind of magic, that a character must learn, maybe a kind of ritual. But the High Elf gets this as a cultural feature, in a way that is always on.


Even this. ‘Elven Chain’ is nothing more than a reflavoring of the Mage Armor spell, using (and transmuting) normal Chain armor as the material component of the spell. Thus it is equivalent to a 1st level spell, one that lasts for 8 hours anyways, and remains balanced if it is ‘always on’ for the High Elf.





Remathilis said:


> And honestly, I don't want to return to the era of [the Elf race] having all the best toys again.




The Elf is an important, maybe essential, element of the D&D tradition. I doubt D&D can even feel like D&D without the Elf. The options for it must be solid.

Fortunately, D&D has always included different kinds of Elf, so it is easy to make each kind different from the other, in a way that helps contain each kind.

At least for the High Elf, being good at both Dexterity fighting and being good at Intelligence wizardry, need to translate into the 5e system in a way that is fun and satisfying.

If the High Elf gains +2 Intelligence and Dexterity-friendly Elven Chain, then it becomes a solid choice for a pure Wizard. The Wizard has low hit points and access to good armor is nice.


----------



## Yaarel (Sep 17, 2017)

Maybe it is best to translate Elven Chain into 5e as the Mage Armor spell as a High Elf feature it that is always on, and that the High Elf version of this spell can make it appear as if shimmering fine supple chain armor, especially when engaging battle.


----------



## cbwjm (Sep 17, 2017)

Elven chain is already a solid choice for a pure wizard. They can use it without requiring proficiency and it provides an AC of 14 + 2 dex (maximum). Not every elf wizard will have a dex higher than 14 as, assuming point buy, some might want to spread those ability points around to other stats. This also means that they don't need to spend a spell slot on mage armour every day or worry about a dispel magic stripping away their defences.

What I think I would like to see, is bladesinging working with elven chain. Currently, you can only use the bladesong in light or no armour. It might be something that I would houserule if it ever came up.


----------



## Yaarel (Sep 17, 2017)

[MENTION=7635]Remathilis[/MENTION]

So far, something like the following.



*High Elf*
+2 Dexterity
+2 Intelligence
Investigation skill
Darkvision
Trance
Languages: Elven, Sylvan, and Common
Cantrip
Mage Armor spell (permanent)
High Elf Weapon Training (longsword proficiency, treat as finesse and spell focus)


----------



## Remathilis (Sep 17, 2017)

Yaarel said:


> Maybe it is best to translate Elven Chain into 5e as the Mage Armor spell as a High Elf feature it that is always on, and that the High Elf version of this spell can make it appear as if shimmering fine supple chain armor, especially when engaging battle.




Giving High Elves mage armor at will is certainly cleaner than creating a new special category of armor. Not sure how balanced, but cleaner.


----------



## Yaarel (Sep 17, 2017)

Remathilis said:


> Giving High Elves mage armor at will is certainly cleaner than creating a new special category of armor. Not sure how balanced, but cleaner.




Mage Armor seems balanced as a feature. As noted, it is only one point higher than Studded and Half Plate, and requires deep opportunity cost, to invest fully in Dexterity to make it so. Even the normal 1st-level spell endures for 8 hours. No one has complained about this virtual ‘always on’ being too powerful, and at high level, the extra 1st-level slot becomes negligible.

If for some reason it seems unbalanced in comparison to other races and subraces, I personally would be comfortable removing Darkvision, especially when the cantrip can be used for Light or Dancing Lights, if desirable. But Darkvision has its own kind of situationality to its usefulness, and it is probably ok to keep it.


----------



## Yaarel (Sep 17, 2017)

If removing Darkvision, maybe flavor Mage Armor as something like this.



*Elven Armor:* You gain permanently the effect of the Mage Armor spell. Additionally, as part of any action, you can make this armor appear as a supple chain armor or as invisible force. Either way, you can make the force radiate an aura of soft white light. The force as chain armor appears elegant. You decide the armor's shape, colors, and decor, and may include any heraldry of your families and groups. As aura, the force gives illumination equivalent to a torch, and within it you appear as if miraculously clean and well groomed.



Edit.

On second thought, I would rather leave the luminous aura for the Fey Eladrin, and the glamorous well groomed look for their Charisma.



As such, the High Elf Mage Armor can appear as either a chain armor or as an invisible force. Whether the Darkvision is available or not, the cantrip can be one that generates light if necessary.


----------



## Azzy (Sep 18, 2017)

Where have all the Eladrin and Gith gone?


----------



## Remathilis (Sep 18, 2017)

Azzy said:


> Where have all the Eladrin and Gith gone?




Back to the planes I wager; these material plane berks can pike it.


----------



## Yaarel (Sep 18, 2017)

Eladrin are a group of elves that are native to the Fey Plane. They feel like a separate race of Elf with their own four subraces.

Fey Elf (Eladrin)
• Spring
• Summer
• Autumn
• Winter

In 2e, there are seven different kinds of Eladrin. Each one roughly echoes one of the Elf subraces.
• Grey Elf (Tulani)
• High Elf (Ghael)
• Half Elf (Firre)
• Aquatic Elf, Nixie/Nymph (Noviere)
• Wood Elf (Shiere)
• Grugach Wild Elf (Bralani)
• Drow Elf, replaced by Pixie (Coure)

But the concept of the Eladrin evolves across the editions, and their association with the four seasons seems to enjoy traction. They consolidate well into four kinds of Eladrin, each one corresponding to a season.

*Eladrin Elf*
• Spring: +2 Charisma, +1 Dexterity (Ghael, Coure)
• Summer: +2 Charisma, +1 Strength (Firre, Bralani)
• Autumn: +2 Charisma, +1 Intelligence (Tulani)
• Winter: +2 Charisma, +1 Wisdom (Noviere, Shiere)


----------



## OB1 (Sep 18, 2017)

Yaarel said:


> They feel like a separate race of Elf with their own four subraces.
> 
> *Eladrin Elf*
> • Spring: +2 Charisma, +1 Dexterity (Ghael, Coure)
> ...




Agree completely and really hope this is the direction they end up going with rather than making them a subclass of Elves.

I would be down with the season still changing either depending on the season of the environment or by the player's choice (with some sort of limitations) as I do like that aspect of the UA.


----------



## OB1 (Sep 18, 2017)

Edit:  Duplicate Post


----------



## Chaosmancer (Sep 18, 2017)

Not to further de-rail the thread, but am I the only one a little confused by the sudden change in direction to talking about High Elves being under-powered and needing a power boost? I've never heard that before, and I'm kind of wondering where the heck it's coming from.

Sure, they may be a little behind these new Eladrin, but that's a different discussion I think.


Also, I'm always hesitant to give racial abilities that are flatly better than a class ability. Considering Warlocks get Mage Armor at-will that they have to cast, I would never suggest a sub-race get Mage Armor the spell with duration permanent. Sure, other races or classes get something similar due to scales or natural armor, but that is different than having a permanent spell that could also shed light if you felt it necessary.


----------



## Yaarel (Sep 18, 2017)

My impression is, the armor proficiency feats (Lightly Armored, Moderately, and Heavily) prove unpopular, and are of less worth than a half feat.

A modest boost in AC seems inconsequential to gaming balance.

Permanent Mage Armor seems balanced for a race feature.

Note, Mage Armor cannot stack with other armors, nor with any armors that are magic items. At the higher tiers, there is even a concern the Mage Armor becomes substandard relative to the ACs of other characters if magical bonuses are prevalent.

Notice, even the UA Githyanki flat out gets proficiency with all light and medium armors! Nobody bats an eye about this.

Armor is fine as a racial feature.


----------



## Yaarel (Sep 18, 2017)

Duplicatepost


----------



## Ragmon (Sep 18, 2017)

Wait, so the Gith don't get DEX instead they get INT ? WHAT?
Their common attribute was DEX (+2 for Yankies and +6 for Zerai, 3.x ed), Githzerai even get a penalty to INT.

\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
A major issue is that there are no shared traits for the Gith, they both get +1 INT and that is it. Might as well be two different races. 

*Githyankies* are graceful, sturdy but brash. Not Strong a not smart.
*Decadent Mastery* - This could have been a shared trait, since both Gith have time to learn.
*Martial Prodigy* - This is redundant to the fluff, TRAINED FROM BIRTH AS WARRIORS, their gonna have at least a level of fighter or some martial class to reflect this. If not then they were probably not raised from birth to become a warrior.
*Psionics* - Its fine.

*Githzerai* are graceful, wise but a bit simple. They got the INT part very wrong.
*Monastic training* - Kind of goes against the designers own philosophy of not adding too many stacking bonuses.
*Psionics* - Sure what ever.

Githyankies get more traits, this should be fixed.
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

Just about any person who played a few sessions in D&D 5 could have designed better races in 5-10 minutes.

I think they should rework the whole Gith race, how to make then work properly:
*Gith
+1 to DEX - Yankie (+2 CON) and Zerai (+2 WIS), or turn it around and make it +2 DEX and +1C and +1W.
+ Darkvision
Spell Resisntace - Gnome Cunning essentially.
Psionics - go full ham, make the psionics the main divide for the Subraces. Give 'em very different set of powers.*

This should be balanced enough, also it takes the lore from previous editions into consideration.

Something like this.


----------



## Mistwell (Sep 19, 2017)

Yaarel said:


> [MENTION=7635]Remathilis[/MENTION]
> 
> So far, something like the following.
> 
> ...




Too much. WAY too much. You are nearly alone in your opinion that High Elves are in need of such boosts. 

The model (from Dwarf) is "Existing Base Racial Stuff" plus Ability Increase +2 plus Dwarf Armor Proficiency (proficiency with light and medium armor). So to translate that to Elf, it would be "Existing Base Elf Stuff" plus Intelligence +2 plus Elf Weapon Training (plus language, which is almost nothing). You'd lose the cantrip. You sure wouldn't ALSO gain permanent mage armor. You wouldn't get ANY armor benefit - you're already getting too much if you just increased the ability score to +2 and didn't subtract anything else!



Yaarel said:


> Eladrin are a group of elves that are native to the Fey Plane. They feel like a separate race of Elf with their own four subraces.
> 
> Fey Elf (Eladrin)
> • Spring
> ...




This is post what, number 8 in this thread alone saying essentially the same thing yet again? 

I will ask again...why do you seem to think repeating it will make it happen? It really doesn't. I am not aware of any change to the game, ever, which happened because one guy just repeated it over and over again a whole lot.



Chaosmancer said:


> Not to further de-rail the thread, but am I the only one a little confused by the sudden change in direction to talking about High Elves being under-powered and needing a power boost? I've never heard that before, and I'm kind of wondering where the heck it's coming from.
> 
> Sure, they may be a little behind these new Eladrin, but that's a different discussion I think.




It's just him. Nobody else is really bothered by high elves.


----------



## Yaarel (Sep 19, 2017)

Because psionics is a mental phenomenon, it is important for a psionic race to be a mental race with a higher than average Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma.

So, when translating the Gith into 5e, it helps to make sure any psionic flavor makes sense.

For the Githzerai, the psionics makes alot of sense. They are Jedis. Done.

Some people (including me) want the Monk class to include a nonmagical mixed-martial-arts style archetype. But, the high magic archetypes for the Monk class feel strongly psionic to me.

So psionic Monk Githzerai Jedis. Great.



The problem is the Githyanki. They are necromantic (?), arcane (?), ‘Gishes’ (!), but are incompetent at magic (?), yet are psionic (?), Dexterity Fighters (?), with astral silver cord-cutting swords (!) ... what was their flavor again?

The Githyanki flavor is a hot mess. This subrace lacks any coherent flavor.



One approach to coherency is to delete all traditions connecting Githyanki to psionics. Rationale. Githyanki were enslaved and experimented on by psionic Mindflayers. Therefore Githyanki hate psionics and anything connected with psionics. Therefore, Githyanki hate Mindflayers. Therefore, Githyanki hate Githzerai because Githzerai are psionic. Therefore Githyanki turned to arcane necromancy instead, in order to defeat their Mindflayer enslavers. Therefore, Githyanki are now necromancers. Therefore all the Gith are skeletal in appearance.

The Githzerai broke away from the Githyanki, after they all escaped from the Mindflayer.

So.

Githyanki have racial features that make them a decent arcane Fighter-Wizard Gish. In other words, in Githyanki culture, the Eldritch Knight class enjoys prominent status. Except, the Githyanki version of the Eldritch Knight especially focuses on the school of Necromancy.



Racial Ability Scores.

+2 Strength helps the Fighter aspect of the Eldritch Knight.
+1 Intelligence helps the Wizard aspect of the Eldritch Knight.


This is what the Githyanki ‘Gish’ has come to mean in D&D culture.


----------



## Yaarel (Sep 19, 2017)

Mistwell said:


> Nobody is really bothered by high elves.




In D&D tradition, the High Elf is supposed to ‘favor’ the Wizard class.

The problem with the 5e High Elf is. They make substandard Wizards. Their cantrip is redundant. The High Elf +1 Intelligence is suboptimal.


----------



## Mistwell (Sep 19, 2017)

Yaarel said:


> In D&D tradition, the High Elf is supposed to ‘favor’ the Wizard class.
> 
> The problem with the 5e High Elf is. They make substandard Wizards. Their cantrip is redundant. The High Elf +1 Intelligence is suboptimal.




And yet, it's a core rule, for three years now, and a group of one is the only real advocate for changing that. It's not getting comments in surveys from people. It's not getting people clamoring to playtest alternatives, or uploading alternatives to the marketplace, or publishing alternatives elsewhere. There is no demand for this change. Why not just leave it to a house rule in your game and let it go? I see no hope of any official change to the high elf for 5e, ever.


----------



## Chaosmancer (Sep 19, 2017)

Yaarel said:


> In D&D tradition, the High Elf is supposed to ‘favor’ the Wizard class.
> 
> The problem with the 5e High Elf is. They make substandard Wizards. Their cantrip is redundant. The High Elf +1 Intelligence is suboptimal.





Uh... I'd say I have to disagree on both counts. 

The Cantrip is not redundant, a level 1 wizard only has 3 cantrips, you most likely want at least 4. Shocking Grasp for emergency melee escape, Fire Bolt, Minor Illusion, and a utility cantrip. High Elf allows you to start with that instead of waiting until level 4. Increasing magical versatility is the main thrust of a wizard. 


+1 Intelligence is not sub-optimal, unless by sub-optimal you mean "Not the absolute best it could possibly be". +1 is better than a +0, which is what most sub-races get towards Intelligence. In fact, the only ones who beat a +1 Intelligence buff are Gnomes, who are also supposed to be a highly wizard focused race. 

And focusing solely on the bonus to Intelligence to determine an optimal choice is a little short sighted, Elves have the best Dexterity modifier, which is a major determining factor in a wizard's AC, and they receive an additional 2 hours of time during long rests to do things such as prepare spells, scribe scrolls, and write new spells in their spell books. 

I'm sure we could go point by point, but I think the discussion needs to start with, there are more places on the spectrum than "The Best" and "Sub-optimal and needs to be upgraded"


----------



## maceochaid (Sep 19, 2017)

Thinking about the changing season fluff I suddenly wondred . . . as great as it is for the mercurial Eladrin PC, does it cause problems for the courts? Does a courtier of the Summer court have Winter moods? Or is a member of the Winter Court an Eladrin who is fixed in Winter? Does that take away from his Eladrin-ness?

Also, how do you think 5e should handle the Coure, Shiere, Bralani, Firre, etc? Should they just be NPC's? Should they be a Faction? When prestige classes come back? Eladrin only archetypes?


----------



## MechaTarrasque (Sep 19, 2017)

maceochaid said:


> Thinking about the changing season fluff I suddenly wondred . . . as great as it is for the mercurial Eladrin PC, does it cause problems for the courts? Does a courtier of the Summer court have Winter moods? Or is a member of the Winter Court an Eladrin who is fixed in Winter? Does that take away from his Eladrin-ness?
> 
> Also, how do you think 5e should handle the Coure, Shiere, Bralani, Firre, etc? Should they just be NPC's? Should they be a Faction? When prestige classes come back? Eladrin only archetypes?




In the DMG, it says there are elves with the celestial type (instead of humanoid) living in Arborea.  It would be easy enough to make the coure, shiere, bralani, etc. templates that can be added to those celestial elves (and something similar for the celestial dwarves of Arcadia, and the goblins/hobgoblins/orcs of Archeron).  That would differentiate them more from their more mundane kin, and be good filler for a future manual of the planes.


----------



## Saeviomagy (Sep 19, 2017)

An ability better than one of the best 2nd level spells (because it has no components) given out each short rest...

That seems way too good.


----------



## The-Magic-Sword (Sep 20, 2017)

http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/news/dd-survey-0 survey up


----------



## Alexemplar (Sep 20, 2017)

Chaosmancer said:


> +1 Intelligence is not sub-optimal, unless by sub-optimal you mean "Not the absolute best it could possibly be". +1 is better than a +0, which is what most sub-races get towards Intelligence. In fact, the only ones who beat a +1 Intelligence buff are Gnomes, who are also supposed to be a highly wizard focused race.





 Not to be an arse- and keeping in mind that I agree with you 100%...

  Yeah, "Not the absolute best it could possibly be" *is* exactly what sub-optimal means.  It is below optimal.  Doesn't mean it's bad.  Doesn't even mean it's under-performing.  It just means it's not the absolute best.

  And again, I'm totally with you in that way too many people are hung up on not getting that extra +1 or +2 here or there in every single stat without regards to any other factors.


----------



## gyor (Sep 21, 2017)

Maybe not every choice has to be optimal, heck its impossible for all of them to be optimal.


----------



## Chaosmancer (Sep 21, 2017)

gyor said:


> Maybe not every choice has to be optimal, heck its impossible for all of them to be optimal.




I think "optimal" is just a little too complicated to shoe-horn into one choice, because DnD has such a breadth of options that it is completely fair to ask "optimal for what"

I built a gnome cleric, and I did so for the incredibly potent wisdom saving throw that gave me, because the Advantage on all mental saves and the proficiency in Charisma and Wisdom meant that even though I only had a +1 and +3 respectively when I started, I was nearly as good at those saves as you can possibly be. 

The choice was optimal for the aspect I wanted. 


And, if someone wants to play a wizard, but also wants to have a high AC, Mountain Dwarf is the most optimal choice for that intersection of desires. 

Optimal cannot be "the highest ability score" because we have multiple different scores and numbers that can be optimized and by the very nature of scarcity you have to give up one or more in the pursuit of others. 

I just think things are too complicated to pigeonhole, though I agree that by a pure definition optimal is only a single choice, the game defies you to be optimal in all areas of play, and there is a tight race between various paths once you begin widening the scope of what you are trying to optimize.


----------



## The-Magic-Sword (Sep 21, 2017)

One other consideration is that at least in my opinion, +2 vs. +1 is generally meaningless, with regular point buy you can't start with higher than a +3 modifier, and there are diminishing returns on your point expenditures that don't exist when you use your ASI, so instead of going for the 17 (15 +2), you generally want to set two stats at 16, which always comes out to 7 and 9 points with a +1 and +2. It's immaterial whether you have the forest gnome AS setup (+2 Int, +1 Dex) or the high elf one (+2 Dex, +1 Int) because they both come out to the same points spent for 16 Dex/16 Int, which you generally need for a reasonable AC and Spell Save DC/Spell Attack Bonus. 

In other words: High Elves do make for more or less optimal wizards already, as much as any other race I can think of does, depends on the wizard build of course.


----------



## Odunayo (Apr 19, 2018)

The Gith, by contrast... man, there's just something _missing! They are awesomely cool races, with lots of fun fluff and a really unique place in the game, but this writeup just doesn't excite me at all. And I say that as someone who just finished a big Githyanki focused storyline, so I'm well versed in the race and their ethos and culture. They've taken the traits from the Monster Manual, and make a race that is mechanically fine, but just very dull._


----------

