# GAME OF THRONES SEASON 8--Final Run-- Part 6---THE END



## Truth Seeker (May 20, 2019)

*THE IRON THRONE*


Daenerys has emerged as the dominant power in Westeros as Jon Snow and the rest of our heroes struggle with hard truths in the wake of the Battle of King's Landing...




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## jonesy (May 20, 2019)




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## Gladius Legis (May 20, 2019)

Worst finale of any show ever made. Period.

Yes, worse than Dexter, Lost, Seinfeld, HIMYM, or whatever counterexample you want to toss out there. The parts that weren't just entirely stupid were still completely unsatisfying.


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## hawkeyefan (May 20, 2019)

Yeah, well, that’s just, like, your opinion, man.


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## jonesy (May 20, 2019)




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## Mercurius (May 20, 2019)

Well, at least it keeps things open for one or two of the spin-offs to take place afterwards.


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## Aeson (May 20, 2019)

Arya: Seawolf
 I  can see it now. She travels to Easteros in search of young blacksmiths to seduce, and people with brown, green, and blue eyes to slay.


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## Legatus Legionis (May 20, 2019)

.


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## Maxperson (May 20, 2019)

Gladius Legis said:


> Worst finale of any show ever made. Period.
> 
> Yes, worse than Dexter, Lost, Seinfeld, HIMYM, or whatever counterexample you want to toss out there. The parts that weren't just entirely stupid were still completely unsatisfying.




Nah.  It was better than Dexter, How I Met Your Mother, and Lost.  Not sure about Seinfeld.  Not good, but better than those.


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## RangerWickett (May 20, 2019)

Hm, I bet the Dothraki will rape and pillage when they learn Daenerys is dead. Quick, do that thing we do when we don't know how to write a scene.

*cuts to several weeks later for Tyrion's trial*


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## RangerWickett (May 20, 2019)

The North decides to be its own kingdom.

Yara: Wait, that's a f***ing option? We tried seceding thirty years ago and y'all flipped out and took my brother as a hostage.


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## RangerWickett (May 20, 2019)

Number of faces worn by Arya? Zero.

Number of political schemes enacted by Sansa: maaaybe one if "telling Tyrion the truth" counts as a scheme.

Number of useful things Bran learned with his visions: maaaybe one, if "the Night King wants to kill me, not that he doesn't want to kill everyone else too" counts as useful.


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## RangerWickett (May 20, 2019)

Let's see . . . who should be King?

Bran: How about me? I've got a good personal story.

Tyrion: Look, you wee sh**, you can see the future, knew Daenerys was going to burn thousands of innocents, and didn't say a thing. You're practically an accomplice! You're the last person I'd ever trust. I regret ever giving you that saddle, you ingrate!


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## Zardnaar (May 20, 2019)

Maxperson said:


> Nah.  It was better than Dexter, How I Met Your Mother, and Lost.  Not sure about Seinfeld.  Not good, but better than those.




 Yeah it ended a bit better than I thought. Elective monarchy makes a lot of sense, Jon got a happy ending of sorts. Sansa as Queen of the North makes sense. 

 Overall execution of the season though. Bran is the Prince that was promised? Drogon also survived. I also liked Jon's ending. F this Ima off with Tormond and mah doggie.


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## Kaodi (May 20, 2019)

I think AeJon might have been the Prince That Was Promised. He certainly seems to re-enact a version of Azhor Ahai and Lightbringer - stabs his girlfriend, who turns out to have designs similar to the Night King, and gets a "burning sword" in the Iron Throne. He is born of the line said belong to the Prince Who Was Promised, and his parents literally represent fire and ice. He was ever born amidst smoke and salt after a fashion, the tears of his uncle and mother as she died and then had to hide who he was, obfuscation.


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## pukunui (May 20, 2019)

Well, I found that ending satisfactory. The Starks won the game after all!

Brandon Stark is now king of the Six Kingdoms, while Sansa Stark is queen of the North. Meanwhile, Arya Stark is set to displace Barbie as queen of the waves, and Jon looks like he may just end up king beyond the Wall. That was *almost* a smile on his face when he looked at all the wildlings around him.

Oh, and the very best part? Ghost finally got his cuddle! Who's a good boy den?!




Legatus_Legionis said:


> And to think those two get to work on Star Wars next.
> 
> I am not looking forward to it.



I reckon their version of Star Wars won't be any worse than anyone else's. 



> There is a petition to get season 8 remade with competent writes ...



Doesn't matter how many signatures it gets. Never gonna happen.




RangerWickett said:


> The North decides to be its own kingdom.
> 
> Yara: Wait, that's a f***ing option? We tried seceding thirty years ago and y'all flipped out and took my brother as a hostage.



I reckon Yara knew better than to protest since the people in charge now are the ones who took her brother as a hostage in the first place.


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## Zardnaar (May 20, 2019)

D&D might turn in a good Star Wars. It's a lot shorter but they might need different writers.

D&D direct, Dave Filoni produces, Drew Kapeshyn writes.


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## Morrus (May 20, 2019)

So did Bran basically plan all this from the start?


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## Zardnaar (May 20, 2019)

Who knows or cares previous plots don't matter. Best season Eva!!!!!!


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## jonesy (May 20, 2019)

The running theme throughout the final season was the distinctive lack of continuity. Things that happened in previous episodes had very little bearing on the following episode/s.

The Red Keep falls on Jaime and Cersei in the previous episode, and in the final we discover it was just a couple of well-placed bricks that hit them. If they'd moved 5 steps to the left they'd have been fine. Arya rides away from the direction of the Red Keep in the previous episode, but then this episode begins there, with her there. Where was she riding to? From a writing viewpoint, what was the point of the horse? The season is full of continuity blunders large and small. The end of the Dothraki, nope here they are. The power of the scorpions, gone. Jaime decides to stay north, nope going south.


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## jonesy (May 20, 2019)

Morrus said:


> So did Bran basically plan all this from the start?



It really does seem so.


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## Joker (May 20, 2019)

Morrus said:


> So did Bran basically plan all this from the start?




I think he's like a super computer and sees a lot of different possible paths at once. He then tries to steer people in the right direction for the best outcome, taking into account how people's actions might change if he tells them anything.
But that's just how I choose to see it. The makers of the show have been uncomfortable with the magic elements from the get go. So we don't really know how Bran's powers work.


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## pukunui (May 20, 2019)

I was not entirely convinced by some of the choices in the final moments of _Game of Thrones_' floor routine. Some of the moves were not well-rehearsed and were therefore poorly executed. But, boy, did they stick the landing!


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## Zardnaar (May 20, 2019)

The big unresolved question though is...

 What is Brans tax policy now he had the Iron Chair?

 They have a fleet, sewage system and brothels to rebuild.


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## Joker (May 20, 2019)

jonesy said:


> The running theme throughout the final season was the distinctive lack of continuity. Things that happened in previous episodes had very little bearing on the following episode/s.
> 
> The Red Keep falls on Jaime and Cersei in the previous episode, and in the final we discover it was just a couple of well-placed bricks that hit them. If they'd moved 5 steps to the left they'd have been fine. Arya rides away from the direction of the Red Keep in the previous episode, but then this episode begins there, with her there. Where was she riding to? From a writing viewpoint, what was the point of the horse? The season is full of continuity blunders large and small. The end of the Dothraki, nope here they are. The power of the scorpions, gone. Jaime decides to stay north, nope going south.




It's the main criticism of the show, I reckon, that the pacing is so very off. I think it was Mallory and Jason from The Ringer (great website) who said it seems like David and David had an ending in mind and back-tracked (traced) a story from that point. Sort of like how you come up with a backcronym. You come up with a word ironically related to the project and try to decide what the letters stand for, often in a convoluted way.

It's unfortunate that the writing falls short of the work the actors and crew have put it. The visuals are really stunning. So is the wardrobe and the set design.

I can appreciate those things and the vast majority of the series but I'm somewhat deflated after this sub-par season.


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## jonesy (May 20, 2019)

Daario Naharis be like: "So wait, am I the king of The Bay of Dragons now?"


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## Joker (May 20, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> The big unresolved question though is...
> 
> What is Brans tax policy now he had the Iron Chair?
> 
> They have a fleet, sewage system and brothels to rebuild.




The order in which you put those is all wrong.


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## Zardnaar (May 20, 2019)

My favorite reaction. 
 Today Brock Lesnar won the money in the bank briefcase without being entered in the match. Still makes more sense than this episode.


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## Joker (May 20, 2019)

I do want to give a special shout out to Emilia Clarke for really bringing her A-game. I can easily believe the logic of her madness.


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## lowkey13 (May 20, 2019)

*Deleted by user*


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## Raunalyn (May 20, 2019)

The show ended pretty much how I expected it to (I called Bran winning the throne 2 seasons ago). I do have some complaints about the continuity.

Last episode, especially...what was the point of Arya finding the white horse?

Did she become death? Was she dead and the horse was taking her home?

D&D: "Nah, my bad...forget that scene! Red herring and all. Oooo, look!! Shiney Dragon breathing fire!! Oooooo.....Ahhhhhh!"

Like I said...pacing, continuity were big blunders this season. That and the lack of a sense of time; throughout the series, this has been an issue, actually. The way the editing and scenes roll, it makes it seem like Westeros is the size of Delaware.


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## Umbran (May 20, 2019)

Legatus_Legionis said:


> While the writing dual of D&D were able to take the novels and create a script out of it, doing something 'original' those two failed badly.




It wasn't original.  They were writing to GRRM's outline.



> There is a petition to get season 8 remade with competent writes;




Each episode costs something like $10 million to produce.

To get it remade, you don't need a petition with 1 million signatures.  You need $100 million.


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## Umbran (May 20, 2019)

RangerWickett said:


> Number of faces worn by Arya? Zero.
> 
> Number of political schemes enacted by Sansa: maaaybe one if "telling Tyrion the truth" counts as a scheme.
> 
> Number of useful things Bran learned with his visions: maaaybe one, if "the Night King wants to kill me, not that he doesn't want to kill everyone else too" counts as useful.




You seem to forget one of GRRM's stated purposes in writing the series - to teach genre fans lessons about how things don't work out the way they want them, to specifically defy your narrative expectations.


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## Mort (May 20, 2019)

The one thing I can't really get over - how the heck is Jon Snow alive after what he did?

I get Drogon not killing him -though I wish Drogon had doused him in dragon fire - and it not work (except maybe to turn his hair platinum - that would have been cool) - and in the process melt the iron throne (it was right there).

But Grey Worm, the unsulied and a Dothraki horde were right there!

Grey worm was executing people who were even slightly loyal to Cercei (you took her orders - dead!), how would he react to the person who killed his queen? Left in a cell until the other nobles get there? That makes no sense for the point of view established for him!

The Dothraki would have trampled him down! I mean really, wait until another authority got there - no way.

I wish they'd at least have had a quick scene showing how the heck he survived - because it's just that unlikely.


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## lowkey13 (May 20, 2019)

*Deleted by user*


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## Gladius Legis (May 20, 2019)

Umbran said:


> It wasn't original.  They were writing to GRRM's outline.




The plot points weren't original, but everything D&D wrote in the later seasons to connect the dots, so to speak, was their own material.


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## Mort (May 20, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> Well, he survived because no one saw him kill Dany, so no one knew he did! I mean, it's not like her body was there, and only Drogon saw him enter.
> 
> .... so, wait, how did he get arrested?
> 
> ...




John is so ludicrously " truth and honor above all else,"that frankly, I'd have been less surprised if he'd stabbed himself after the incident. That would have worked (at least on that front) for me.


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## Ralif Redhammer (May 20, 2019)

And that's one of the main things I appreciate about the ending and this season - we didn't get entirely what we expected. I certainly would've lost the betting pool on Bran becoming king.

The ending worked for me. Bittersweet, sad, and hopeful at the same time. And really, it's probably the only ending we're going to get for the book series.

And I don’t think it’s as happy-ish as it might seem at first glance. Dorne has always chafed at being part of the Seven Kingdoms – seeing the North’s example, I think they’ll secede from the Six Kingdoms. I doubt the idea of an elected monarch will last – all it’ll take is someone with the power and clout to make their heir a ruler. As for Arya, in the history books GRRM wrote, other people have decided to go sailing to the west…it never goes well.



Umbran said:


> You seem to forget one of GRRM's stated purposes in writing the series - to teach genre fans lessons about how things don't work out the way they want them, to specifically defy your narrative expectations.


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## Vyvyan Basterd (May 20, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> My favorite reaction.
> Today Brock Lesnar won the money in the bank briefcase without being entered in the match. Still makes more sense than this episode.



Dude! Spoilers.


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## lowkey13 (May 20, 2019)

*Deleted by user*


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## Vyvyan Basterd (May 20, 2019)

The biggest crime IMO was just how boring this episode was. Why add the extra 20 minutes? Oh, so we can watch everyone slow walk with zero dialogue. 

As for what I hoped to see: A more heated argument between Jon and Arya about what needed to be done with a wishy-washy Jon. The stab happens and Jon peels away his face as Arya wells up with tears over what she had to do to make sure the right thing was done. Then fleeing with a plan to head West.


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## jonesy (May 20, 2019)

Another thing about lost continuity. I know they never mentioned it on the show, but it's possible that the Unsullied are sailing to their doom. The Isle of Naath is home to butterflies which spread a plague to anyone who wasn't born there. That's the reason they are 'peaceful people' as Missandei said. They don't need to defend themselves. Outsiders who go there die.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Naath



> Corsairs from the Basilisk Isles have landed on the island countless times. None of these invaders survived, however, all falling victim to the butterfly fever, a horrific plague which makes its victims violently spasm and die. The Naathi are immune to this local disease, which is theorized to be carried by the butterflies of the island. The Naathi claim that none of these invaders maintained a permanent presence on the island for more than a single year.


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## RangerWickett (May 20, 2019)

Umbran said:


> You seem to forget one of GRRM's stated purposes in writing the series - to teach genre fans lessons about how things don't work out the way they want them, to specifically defy your narrative expectations.




Oh that's nonsense. There's fantasy _tropes_ of the hero fighting a heroic duel and saving the day and winning the princess. That stuff he's pushing back on.

But then there's just good storytelling. You don't devote 2 seasons to a character gaining a skill only to have her not even bring up that she has that skill. And especially in GRRM's writing, characters are supposed to act realistically, and I'm pretty sure a realistic Arya would tell people who want to kill Cersei that she has "one neat trick to kill Cersei."


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## mortwatcher (May 20, 2019)

jonesy said:


> Another thing about lost continuity. I know they never mentioned it on the show, but it's possible that the Unsullied are sailing to their doom. The Isle of Naath is home to butterflies which spread a plague to anyone who wasn't born there. That's the reason they are 'peaceful people' as Missandei said. They don't need to defend themselves. Outsiders who go there die.
> 
> https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Naath




yep, they are basically committing mass suicide

with how this season went, it kinda makes sense that is doesn't make any sense


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## Mageman (May 20, 2019)

She did kill Set Meryn Trant wearing a face but that's in season 5


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## Umbran (May 20, 2019)

RangerWickett said:


> But then there's just good storytelling. You don't devote 2 seasons to a character gaining a skill only to have her not even bring up that she has that skill.




Television does not always give you the luxury of knowing how you are going to be allowed to end your story.  My understanding is that the decision to have the 7th and 8th season be brief was a business decision made after that (and other issues we could point to) were already in motion.   When they cut your episode count, you have to cut material.  Such is the nature of television at the moment.  

I mean, look back at Babylon 5, some of the best storytelling in TV ever done.  They got their chain yanked over whether they were going to have a 5th season - the result was a pretty crummy 5th season.  It happens.


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## RangerWickett (May 20, 2019)

My understanding is that HBO wanted the showrunners to keep going for more seasons, and offered money for more episodes, but Weiss and Benioff declined. 

Even if the shorter seasons were imposed on them, there are myriad ways to write the ending of this show that make the events leading up to this season have more import.

Babylon 5's fourth season is stupendous because, despite being rushed, JMS was able to wrap up the various plot threads in a satisfying way. The mediocre fifth season is a different issue. It's not like Game of Thrones wrapped up its plots and then got renewed again. 

I'm not saying the showrunners are monsters or anything. I'm just saying that they wrote a bad ending from a purely technical standpoint. I don't care whether character A lives or character B gets with their love interest, or whatever. I just want effective set-up and pay-off, and this show failed at that after many years of being the pinnacle of it.


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## jonesy (May 20, 2019)

Captain Stark, the faceless wolf, the smiling death, bane of the far seas, slayer of kraken, silence of the seas, the wave that strikes like thunder.


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## CapnZapp (May 21, 2019)

Season eight summary:

Sigh. Yawn. Shrug.


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## Tonguez (May 21, 2019)

how do so many Dothraki keep coming back? they seem to keep multiplying quicker than the dead!!!

anyway after two weeks of terrible battles, having a slower pace was strangely cathartic

but it must have been an American who thought that ending with a democratic monarchy with a six state electoral college was a good idea

but I was right about Sansa being Queen of the North and Jon going back to the Black Watch


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## Zardnaar (May 21, 2019)

One of the most successful monarchies of all time had a 7 elector system. 

 It also makes sense in Westeros, how they executed it and who they elected is another matter.


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## reelo (May 21, 2019)

This is how it went down...


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## Sadras (May 21, 2019)

To be fair, one of the positives from this season, were the 12,000 of the original 8,000 unsullied who survived.


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## Imaculata (May 21, 2019)

I watched this last episode in a packed movie theater. It was disappointing, but not as disappointing as I expected it to be. There were a few enjoyable moments, plus some stellar acting from Dinklage.


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## Imaculata (May 21, 2019)

RangerWickett said:


> Hm, I bet the Dothraki will rape and pillage when they learn Daenerys is dead.




Don't give them ideas for a new show.


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## Zardnaar (May 21, 2019)

I liked it more than I thought I would. Some things made sense at least relative to the rest of the season. Episode 3 to 5 inflicted most of the damage.


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## Maxperson (May 21, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> As endings go - it ended!




Valar Showghulis!


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## Maxperson (May 21, 2019)

Raunalyn said:


> The show ended pretty much how I expected it to (I called Bran winning the throne 2 seasons ago). I do have some complaints about the continuity.




I'll share that with you.  I called Tyrion ruling the south and Sansa ruling the north as a separate kingdom.  Since Bran spends most of his time staring at walls while he is three eyed ravening around the world, Tyrion is the one who is really ruling the south.


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## Maxperson (May 21, 2019)

Umbran said:


> Each episode costs something like $10 million to produce.
> 
> To get it remade, you don't need a petition with 1 million signatures.  You need $100 million.




Just a nitpick, but it's $60 million.  If it was 10 episodes they would have had more time to end things without so much being rushed to conclusion.


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## Sadras (May 21, 2019)

Very little made sense in the final.

Especially the jokers who sat at the small council with fanfiction dialogue.
Very early on in the show Tyrion had to explain what a bank is Bronn, now the dude is the Master of Coins.
Apparently all it takes is to be an avid book reader to be Maester on the council. There is a lot more than just greyscale one needs to learn.
And Master of Grammar is Ser Davos taught by Shireen.
And why does Bran, of all....creatures, need a Master of Whispers 


Bran declared himself 3-eyed raven hence he could not be Lord of Winterfell, but is ok with the title King of the 6 Kingdoms. Masterful player of the game, this dude, also pretty evil given that he might have known/suspected the scorched human policy to be effected in KL (even though he is not supposed to know the future). Dr Strange-Bran.
Ok I will say Bran is younger than Cersei, but is he really more beautiful than her?  

Pedestrian (she lost her horse) Marya Sue had to tell Jon Snow what a killer looks like - because all those years serving at the the Night's Watch he was mingling with income tax fraudsters.

Greyworm was ready to kill Davos and the Queen's bff for the sake of 5 Lannister soldiers but was able to show restraint after Daenerys's death for weeks while keeping Tyrion and Jon prisoner. 

Apparently the Last War was just a precursor to many more wars all across the world, ofc this is excused because she had gone full retard at this point.

The casting department made an error and inadvertently hired too many PoC to play Unsullied and Dothraki. It would have been bad PR to turn them away so they all got a part in the show. 
There is literally a scene where the Unsullied are escorting Tyrion and a soldier's junk is flaying about for all to see. Forget #FakeNews, #FakeEunuchs are the worst!

It was evident that the Unsullied feared Jon would kill Tyrion or that Tyrion would kill Jon (really?), hence the weapon handover, but when it comes to visit for their Queen, well....you can just keep your weapon.  

After the plebithide, the dragon had just acquired enough XP to increase in level and immediately placed all of his ASI's in Intelligence thus understanding the importance of the Iron Throne. He, like Greyworm, worked through his emotional rage and spared Jon.

As for the Greater Council, which only reflected less than a dozen title holders, guess they ran out of extras (but not plastic bottles). 
I was amazed Dorne didn't desire their own independence given their nation's history, especially when Sansa declared the North as independent.
Someone needs to tell Tyrion he is also Lord of Casterly Rock.

Get ready to follow Stark Trek as we follow Arya who boldly goes where no man (or woman) has gone before.

Anyhoo...

EDIT: Also why would they want their own lands/titles and houses - they would be over in a single generation. I guess where wars failed to reduce their numbers, having a house will.

Also last 3-Eyed Raven lived for thousands of years (according to the show)...so that is a really long time for the next election. Dictator4Life! 
This is the dude that told his sister she looked hot the night of her raping. 
He has the best words, Making Westeros Great Again, one bad script at a time.


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## jonesy (May 21, 2019)

George has written an update regarding the last episode:

http://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2019/05/20/an-ending/


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## Ralif Redhammer (May 21, 2019)

"if nothing else, the readers will learn what happened to Jeyne Poole, Lady Stoneheart, Penny and her pig, Skahaz Shavepate, Arianne Martell, Darkstar, Victarion Greyjoy, Ser Garlan the Gallant, Aegon VI"




Okay, some of them I do remember, but still, I can't say I'm burning up at the thought of learning their fates.

"How about this?  I’ll write it. You read it.  Then everyone can make up their own mind, and argue about it on the internet."

Sure, but first you have to write it...



jonesy said:


> George has written an update regarding the last episode:
> http://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2019/05/20/an-ending/


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## lowkey13 (May 21, 2019)

*Deleted by user*


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## Sadras (May 21, 2019)

I wonder if in the books Daenerys uses the hotkeys so she doesn't lose as many mutalisks.


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## mortwatcher (May 21, 2019)

Sadras said:


> I wonder if in the books Daenerys uses the hotkeys so she doesn't lose as many mutalisks.




1 is fine if you micro it perfectly until the opponent has no units shooting up


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## jonesy (May 21, 2019)

So what you're saying is that the dothraki and unsullied had to retreat, because ghost-Snow took out overlord Dany which caused their side to become supply blocked?


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## Derren (May 21, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> One of the most successful monarchies of all time had a 7 elector system.
> 
> It also makes sense in Westeros, how they executed it and who they elected is another matter.




Calling the Holy Roman Empire successful is stretching it quite a bit. Not to mention that it was very unstable, so exactly what they tried to prevent with going for an elective system.


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## MarkB (May 21, 2019)

Umbran said:


> You seem to forget one of GRRM's stated purposes in writing the series - to teach genre fans lessons about how things don't work out the way they want them, to specifically defy your narrative expectations.




And these days people have genre expectations based upon tropes established in Game of Thrones. I wonder whether he considers that a success or an irony. Did he break the wheel, or merely forge some new spokes?


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## Zardnaar (May 21, 2019)

Derren said:


> Calling the Holy Roman Empire successful is stretching it quite a bit. Not to mention that it was very unstable, so exactly what they tried to prevent with going for an elective system.




It lasted a very long time and it's not like anything else is that stable either. In their world it makes sense no point gambling on over throwing a dynasty when you can get elected. In theory it would keep the blood bath down.


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## Derren (May 21, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> It lasted a very long time and it's not like anything else is that stable either. In their world it makes sense no point gambling on over throwing a dynasty when you can get elected. In theory it would keep the blood bath down.




And yet there was constant internal strife and wars with the emperor too weak to prevent it.


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## Zardnaar (May 21, 2019)

A lot if that was due to the reformation, which caused problems elsewhere with different government systems.
 Every government system seems to have problems, Democracy hasn't been around that long either and has issues.
 Seems to be more of a human thing.


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## Derren (May 21, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> A lot if that was due to the reformation, which caused problems elsewhere with different government systems.
> Every government system seems to have problems, Democracy hasn't been around that long either and has issues.
> Seems to be more of a human thing.




Not really. There were a lot of wars between the individual princes even before the reformation.


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## Zardnaar (May 21, 2019)

There's lots of wars anytime I don't think government forms mitigate that. Might be getting a bit close to the no politic thing thing though. 

 Humans are good at being cruel to each other.


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## Derren (May 21, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> There's lots of wars anytime I don't think government forms mitigate that. Might be getting a bit close to the no politic thing thing though.
> 
> Humans are good at being cruel to each other.




Yes, but internal wars are something different.
France with its centralism never had that much of internal strife as the HRE had. And as the goal of the kingdoms in GoT was to prevent further conflicts between the houses, choosing an elective succession is the worst possible idea as the HRE shows.


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## Zardnaar (May 21, 2019)

Derren said:


> Yes, but internal wars are something different.
> France with its centralism never had that much of internal strife as the HRE had. And as the goal of the kingdoms in GoT was to prevent further conflicts between the houses, choosing an elective succession is the worst possible idea as the HRE shows.




HRE had lots if religious strife and different cultures. Westeros only really has one plus Dorne. The 7 is also the default faith for most of Westeros with a little old God's in the north.

 France had big problems with the reformation and the decentralized nobles.


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## Derren (May 21, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> HRE had lots if religious strife and different cultures. Westeros only really has one plus Dorne. The 7 is also the default faith for most of Westeros with a little old God's in the north.
> 
> France had big problems with the reformation and the decentralized nobles.




Again, you ignore all the wars inside the HRE before the reformation and there were a lot of them. Without a strong emperor, and the electors did the best to elect someone weak, the princes inside the HRE could do as they please, including waging war against each other, which they did often because of matters of territory or succession. Religion only later became just another reason to wage war but was hardly the only one.


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## Zardnaar (May 21, 2019)

Derren said:


> Again, you ignore all the wars inside the HRE before the reformation and there were a lot of them. Without a strong emperor, and the electors did the best to elect someone weak, the princes inside the HRE could do as they please, including waging war against each other, which they did often because of matters of territory or succession. Religion only later became just another reason to wage war but was hardly the only one.




I'm not ignoring it  up there were other wars elsewhere . Look at the 20th century with entirely different forms of government. Or the War if the Roses which GoT is based on. You're going to have wars regardless.


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## Derren (May 21, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> I'm not ignoring it  up there were other wars elsewhere . Look at the 20th century with entirely different forms of government. Or the War if the Roses which GoT is based on. You're going to have wars regardless.




Okay, I give up. You are obviously not able to see a difference between the many internal wars inside the HRE, including before the reformation, and the, compared to that, rather peaceful live in France (at least as internal wars are concerned) and how an elective government system which lead to an nearly impotent emperor who was unable to check the power of his subjects played into that.


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## Zardnaar (May 22, 2019)

Can you give me a timeframe? France was not unified at one point and they had the hugenots and that crusade I'll have to look up. Are you meaning France between the Hundred Years War and reformation or post 30 Years War?

 Westeros also lacks a lot of things causing that conflict. War of the 5 Kings was political for the most part.


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## Mercurius (May 22, 2019)

MarkB said:


> And these days people have genre expectations based upon tropes established in Game of Thrones. I wonder whether he considers that a success or an irony. Did he break the wheel, or merely forge some new spokes?




Maybe he broke the "childhood wheel" and forged "adolescent spokes." But yeah, it is a new wheel of sorts. I think this is true of "grimdark" (and GRRMdark) stuff in general: it isn't as edgy or rebellious as it thinks it is, or perhaps as it once was when it was rebellious against "father conventions."


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## Gladius Legis (May 22, 2019)

Ralif Redhammer said:


> "if nothing else, the readers will learn what happened to Jeyne Poole, Lady Stoneheart, Penny and her pig, Skahaz Shavepate, Arianne Martell, Darkstar, Victarion Greyjoy, Ser Garlan the Gallant, Aegon VI"
> 
> View attachment 106615
> 
> Okay, some of them I do remember, but still, I can't say I'm burning up at the thought of learning their fates.




A lot of book readers know right away who most of those characters are and happen to care. The omission of Lady Stoneheart was VERY controversial among book readers around the time of Season 5. The lack of Arianne Martell and Darkstar were just two of the many reasons the show version of Dorne fell flat on its face. And Jeyne Poole's storyline going to Sansa in the show was one of the worst parts of Season 5 other than Dorne.

I'll give you Penny, though. She's not only superfluous, she's terrible.


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## Maxperson (May 22, 2019)

Sadras said:


> Ok I will say Bran is younger than Cersei, but is he really more beautiful than her?




The prophecy was just that a younger, more beautiful queen will take all that she holds dear.  Daenerys qualifies as doing that.  It was all taken away from her when she died.  Bran getting the throne after that doesn't mess up that prophecy.



> After the plebithide, the dragon had just acquired enough XP to increase in level and immediately placed all of his ASI's in Intelligence thus understanding the importance of the Iron Throne. He, like Greyworm, worked through his emotional rage and spared Jon.




They don't attack Targaryens.  The throne was just handy to vent his rage on.  I had no problem with this part.



> Also last 3-Eyed Raven lived for thousands of years (according to the show)...so that is a really long time for the next election. Dictator4Life!




The last Three Eyed Raven was sustained by the roots of a weirwood tree.  Bran isn't.


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## pukunui (May 22, 2019)

I think Grey Worm had enough sense to realise that murdering Jon would’ve had much more dire consequences than murdering some defenseless Lannister soldiers.


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## cmad1977 (May 22, 2019)

Oof. Unearned ending and a snooze fest.


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## Ralif Redhammer (May 22, 2019)

I have read each of the books multiple times. Still can't say that I'm burning up at the thought of knowing what happens with Skahaz Shavepate.



Gladius Legis said:


> A lot of book readers know right away who most of those characters are and happen to care.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (May 22, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> There's lots of wars anytime I don't think government forms mitigate that. Might be getting a bit close to the no politic thing thing though.



Democracy is a lot better at it, though, then many other forms.
Animportant thing for a government form is that it allows for changes, instead of being static. If the only way to get rid of a bad ruler (or at least some think is bad) is murdering him and everyone standing between you and him, it can't guarantee peace. 
Democratic systems aren't perfect, but their ability to chance course and personnel in a non-violent way helps a lot. 



> Humans are good at being cruel to each other.



But not to forget, but most of the time we actually aren't. 
The further we are apart in spirit and location, the harder it can be to be empathetic, but the basis of our ability to form societies and build cultures is the ability to find common ground and work together for a common goal.


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## Derren (May 22, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Can you give me a timeframe? France was not unified at one point and they had the hugenots and that crusade I'll have to look up. Are you meaning France between the Hundred Years War and reformation or post 30 Years War?
> 
> Westeros also lacks a lot of things causing that conflict. War of the 5 Kings was political for the most part.




Okay, lets go with that.
1435 to 1618

In that timeframe you had 4 wars between Brandenburg and Pomerania, the Landshut war of Succession, several conflicts between Württemberg and an alliance of swabian cities, the Old Zürich war and the Swabian War, just to name a few. There are more.
All of those wars were internal to the HRE, had nothing to do with religion and the Emperor was powerless to stop them (the last war was even against the Emperor himself).
How many internal wars did France have in that time?


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## Zardnaar (May 22, 2019)

Not many iirc. I was thinking earlier France. 4 wars in almost 200 years isn't that bad, my country has been in more than that. External though.


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## Derren (May 22, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Not many iirc. I was thinking earlier France. 4 wars in almost 200 years isn't that bad, my country has been in more than that. External though.




I only listed internal wars as the entire point of the council was to bring stability to the 6 kingdoms. There were more external and internal wars with external participation. And as I said, that were not all wars, just the ones I could find quickly. Inside the HRE someone was nearly always at war. And all that, at least partially, because the Emperor was weak thanks to the elective system and only had its own might to enforce his will while the princes did whatever they wanted, especially the stronger ones.
So by changing the kingship to being elective they made further war between the houses much more likely.
Why should the Lanister not go to war again once they recovered? Or Dorne? Who would stop them? Bran? Why would the other houses lend him troops to fight a war they have no stake in?
And after Bran dies, who would they elect? Either themselves or someone powerless which can't tell them what to do. Unless someone is strong enough to bully them into voting for him which causes more friction.


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## Zardnaar (May 22, 2019)

HRE was not politically unified though. The various prince etc ruled independent realms. 

 Westeros had 300 odd years of peace with a few small rebellions like the Blackfyre one. 

 My expectations were that neither Jon or Dany would get the throne (to obvious).


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## jonesy (May 23, 2019)

So, a new Game of Thrones WTF Edition dropped, and it has an awesome Bran edit that already got cut out and made into a separate video:

[video=youtube;nKHLyvGtiWM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKHLyvGtiWM[/video]


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## Maxperson (May 23, 2019)

Ralif Redhammer said:


> I have read each of the books multiple times. Still can't say that I'm burning up at the thought of knowing what happens with Skahaz Shavepate.




On the other hand I really want to know about Lady Stoneheart, the Young Griff and some others.  I also want to know about Jon Snow, Daenereys, Sansa(okay, not Sansa), Arya, and all of the other main characters.  The show deviated so drastically, even before it went past the books, that nothing that has happened can be trusted when it comes to what is really supposed to happen to the characters.


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## Sadras (May 23, 2019)

pukunui said:


> I think Grey Worm had enough sense to realise that murdering Jon would’ve had much more dire consequences than murdering some defenseless Lannister soldiers.




And yet his men drew their weapons on Davos and Snow when he tried to stop Grey Worm murdering the Lannister PoW's.
The character Grey Worm was a useless tool in the last episode and made no sense whatsoever.


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## Ralif Redhammer (May 23, 2019)

Honestly, Young Griff I actively don't want to hear more about. The whole addition of that plot got my goat, as all I could see was one more thread that GRRM would have to struggle with.

Lady Stoneheart on the other hand has the potential to dramatically change the story. It's a massive revenge arc that I think readers have been waiting to see how it unspools; what happens to Jaime Lannister if Brienne, since Brienne is presumably leading him to her?



Maxperson said:


> On the other hand I really want to know about Lady Stoneheart, the Young Griff and some others.


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## Numidius (May 23, 2019)

Any chance Martin is going to publish the sixth book, now that the TV series is over?


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## Mallus (May 24, 2019)

pukunui said:


> I think Grey Worm had enough sense to realise that murdering Jon would’ve had much more dire consequences than murdering some defenseless Lannister soldiers.



Jon had value as a hostage. The random Lannister soldiers didn’t.


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## Maxperson (May 24, 2019)

Ralif Redhammer said:


> Honestly, Young Griff I actively don't want to hear more about. The whole addition of that plot got my goat, as all I could see was one more thread that GRRM would have to struggle with.




I care, because he's Aegon.  Cutting the Young Griff out of the show is what I believe caused them to make Jon into Aegon.  I don't think he is Aegon in the books, and he may not even be Lyanna's child.  The Young Griff storyline plays into Jon's story and how it differs from the show, so I'm interested to see where it goes.



> Lady Stoneheart on the other hand has the potential to dramatically change the story. It's a massive revenge arc that I think readers have been waiting to see how it unspools; what happens to Jaime Lannister if Brienne, since Brienne is presumably leading him to her?




Yeah.  So much is so very different in the books than in the show.


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## Maxperson (May 24, 2019)

Numidius said:


> Any chance Martin is going to publish the sixth book, now that the TV series is over?




I read a quote from Martin release earlier today that he was due to show up at a convention or something like one in July of 2020.  He said that if he does not walk into the convention with a copy of the finished book, we could imprison him over a sea of sulfer or something like that until he finishes.  So he seems to have given himself about another year to finish.


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## Numidius (May 24, 2019)

[MENTION=23751]Maxperson[/MENTION], Cool! Glad to hear it. 

On Aegon, I think it is going to be Jon even in the books, 'cause I guess the other claimant is going to die horribly before the ending


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## Zardnaar (May 24, 2019)

The convention GRR Martin was talking about is here in New Zealand. The lake of sulfur is on White Island.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whakaari_/_White_Island

And a free trip more details TBA.
https://i.stuff.co.nz/travel/news/1...rones-fans-to-nz-at-george-rr-martins-request


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## Sadras (May 24, 2019)

Numidius said:


> [MENTION=23751]Maxperson[/MENTION], Cool! Glad to hear it.
> 
> On Aegon, I think it is going to be Jon even in the books, 'cause I guess the other claimant is going to die horribly before the ending




I think his name will be Aemon. I believe that they did not want to confuse viewers with Maester Aemon from Castle Black hence the switch to Aegon. For the same reason they created _Yara_ Greyjoy.


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## lowkey13 (May 24, 2019)

*Deleted by user*


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## Numidius (May 24, 2019)

I want to believe there was a deal to not publish until end of the show.


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## Maxperson (May 24, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> He has no pages. Until the book is published, there are no pages.




::gasp::  He's a Pageless Man?!?


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## Sadras (May 24, 2019)

Mallus said:


> Jon had value as a hostage. The random Lannister soldiers didn’t.




What value did Jon have as a hostage for Grey Worm?
Nothing was discussed when the major houses met. There was absolutely no bargaining whatsoever except for his punishment. So no, value was not the consideration. And they certainly were not afraid of the Northern/Vale forces.

I mean I could do the writers' job by fanwanking and say it was to build more ships so the mushrooming Essos armies could sail back to where they came from but yeah, other than that weak justification...


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## Numidius (May 24, 2019)

Daenerys dies, quietly, no one is shown to care, not even Greyworm. No witnesses. Still Jon is sent to the barrier, but the Watch is dimantled. The North is declared indipendent, still the Six realms have jurisdiction over the barrier, apparently, which is now serving as a rehab for broken hearted.


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## Ralif Redhammer (May 24, 2019)

Maybe. From what I understand, part of the reason Benioff and Weiss got the job was that they correctly guessed Jon's true parentage when they first met with GRRM. I see no reason why they would've changed that for the show. If that's the case either Griff is a third Targaryen or a false claimant, neither of which the story really needed at this point with an already sprawling, geographically vast narrative.



Maxperson said:


> I care, because he's Aegon.  Cutting the Young Griff out of the show is what I believe caused them to make Jon into Aegon.  I don't think he is Aegon in the books, and he may not even be Lyanna's child.  The Young Griff storyline plays into Jon's story and how it differs from the show, so I'm interested to see where it goes.


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## cmad1977 (May 24, 2019)

I love how the wildling spend their lives desperate to get south where they can survive in less than arctic conditions... then after sacrificing so much to get there and with more than enough space for their people to survive, coupled with the depopulation of the north(via the walkers), they just bounce. 

The writing this season is so abysmally bad that the show has gone from something I recommend people watch if they haven’t to a show I tell people not to bother with if they haven’t seen it.


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## Istbor (May 24, 2019)

cmad1977 said:


> I love how the wildling spend their lives desperate to get south where they can survive in less than arctic conditions... then after sacrificing so much to get there and with more than enough space for their people to survive, coupled with the depopulation of the north(via the walkers), they just bounce.
> 
> The writing this season is so abysmally bad that the show has gone from something I recommend people watch if they haven’t to a show I tell people not to bother with if they haven’t seen it.




To be fair they seemed okay with the arctic conditions, it was mostly to escape an army of the dead. 

I can totally see wanting to go back to your homeland and away from people who have hated you for centuries, once there aren't hordes of things trying to kill you. 

I also think in the books Jon is a Targaryen. It kind of sucks the surprise from that story sure, but with Ned always remembering the "Promise me" words of his sister, there is no doubt something is there. The Aegon in the books has yet to be proven true or false.


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## jonesy (May 26, 2019)

Yeah, the only reason the wildlings were coming south was the undead menace. They've adapted to the environment quite well. Their resentment for the wall came mostly from being treated like savages for things that happened a long long time ago (nevermind the Thenn's).


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## Olgar Shiverstone (May 26, 2019)

I'll say this about this season and particularly the last episode ... it's not Scottish.


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