# Heroes: (Volume Three: Villains) The Second Coming--Season Premiere



## Truth Seeker (Sep 22, 2008)

*Heroes: (Volume Three: Villains) The Second Coming & The Buttterfly Effect.*
Writer:Tim Kring


Director:Allan Arkush​ 

Stars:Kristen Bell (Elle Bishop)​ 
Noah Gray-Cabey (Micah Sanders)

Sendhil Ramamurthy (Mohinder Suresh)
Ali Larter (Tracy Strauss)
Adrian Pasdar (Nathan Petrelli)
Masi Oka (Hiro Nakamura)
Milo Ventimiglia (Peter Petrelli)
Hayden Panettiere (Claire Bennet)
James Kyson Lee (Ando Masahashi)
Zachary Quinto (Gabriel Gray/Sylar)
Dania Ramirez (Maya Herrera)
Cristine Rose (Angela Petrelli)
Jack Coleman (Noah Bennet)
Greg Grunberg (Matt Parkman)​






Recurring Role:Brea Grant (Daphne)​ 
Ashley Crow (Sandra Bennet)

Randall Bentley (Lyle Bennet)
Jimmy Jean-Louis (The Haitian)
Carlon Jeffery (Damon Dawson)
Bruce Boxleitner (Senator)
Malcolm McDowell (Daniel Linderman)
George Takei (Kaito Nakamura)
Blake Shields (Flint)​






Guest Star:Jamie Hector (Benjamin "Knox" Washington)​ 
Francis Capra (Jesse Murphy)​ 




1 hour recap, the last 2 hours...the show.​ 
​


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## Steel_Wind (Sep 23, 2008)

Some surprises - some predictability - and I expect the Canadian preview from next week's was a lil better than the American one 

Good to have Heroes back.


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## DonTadow (Sep 23, 2008)

I'm glad to see them back too. I read my local papers preview and she seemed to say there was nothing resolved from last season.. boy was that a bad article.  A lot of discoveries, a lot of new mysteries.. all in all very good.  I was a little pissed at how stupid they make hiro, I mean wow that was just dumb all around.  It's like his entire time in japan he learned nothiing about treachary and villians


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## Jeremy757 (Sep 23, 2008)

It was full of win and the season is off to a better start than last season.

Spoilers:



Spoiler



The idea of Sylar being used by the so-called good guys fills me with much twisted glee.  

Elle is awesome and I hope she gets to kick some real ass this season.

Poor Parkman, always getting the short end of the stick


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## Jeremy757 (Sep 23, 2008)

DonTadow said:


> I'm glad to see them back too. I read my local papers preview and she seemed to say there was nothing resolved from last season.. boy was that a bad article.  A lot of discoveries, a lot of new mysteries.. all in all very good.  I was a little pissed at how stupid they make hiro, I mean wow that was just dumb all around.  It's like his entire time in japan he learned nothiing about treachary and villians




I thought it was rather in character for him.  He is an impatient and impetuous person who has a super power that feeds that short coming, and frankly he is a little stupid.  He has always been mostly written that way.


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## Brown Jenkin (Sep 23, 2008)

But once more Suresh trumps all stupidity. But then his inate power is super-stupidity. Otherwise pretty good, no Supernatural premire, but still very good. I enjoyed the first too chapters enough that I will be back for more.


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## LightPhoenix (Sep 23, 2008)

I thought the best part was Parkman _actually_ being a detective, and figuring out Future Peter before (mostly) everyone else.

Sylar said Claire was special, but Sylar doesn't know about Adam yet.  In a way he's a lot like Angela said Peter was... always thinking he's right.

I thought not telling us the villain's power that Peter is trapped in was a bit of a cop-out, but eh.

My thought on the future Hiro saw... Sphere of Annihilation.

Nice to know Angela's power, even if most of us had figured it out.

I wonder if Nathan's mind got "fractured" by the process of his emerging abilities, like Niki's did.

No Micah... blah.

The worst part was that intro special... holy heck that was awful.  I'm not usually home Monday nights, so I didn't realize Terminator:SCC was on, and missed the first twenty minutes of it.  Blah.

Second worst part, actually in the episodes?  That bloody 10% of brain idea that in completely wrong and really needs to be shot dead.


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## Mark (Sep 23, 2008)

Elle is gonna need a 



Spoiler



new daddy


.


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## Steel_Wind (Sep 23, 2008)

Suresh is not stupid. He's a 18 or 19 Int; he just happens to have a "7" wisdom...


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## Jeremy757 (Sep 23, 2008)

LightPhoenix said:


> My thought on the future Hiro saw... Sphere of Annihilation.




I think it was supposed to be the world cracking in half like in the African's paintings.  Which also reminds me that now there is someone else that has the same powers as Isaac.



LightPhoenix said:


> I wonder if Nathan's mind got "fractured" by the process of his emerging abilities, like Niki's did.




I kind of wonder if its not in their mind at all but is a yet unrevealed hero/villain that doesn't have a body and jumps from body to body.


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## Steel_Wind (Sep 23, 2008)

I don't tihnk Nathan's mind got fractured at all. I think Nathan started seeing Linderman right when Future Peter showed up - and put it in his head as a means to control his brother and ensure he does not go off script.

It's Parkman's talent going on here; not a Nikki / Jessica fracture.


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## Relique du Madde (Sep 23, 2008)

Now why couldn't last season start out like this?  However, this season opener felt very Marvel like since mohinder's powers 



Spoiler



seem to be an homage to Spiderman/ the Manspider


 and "the German" 



Spoiler



is a magneto homage


.


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## Wycen (Sep 23, 2008)

Why so many stupid decisions and characters?  It was ok, but I missed the last 5 minutes watching Top Gear.


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## Relique du Madde (Sep 23, 2008)

Wycen said:


> Why so many stupid decisions and characters?  It was ok, but I missed the last 5 minutes watching Top Gear.




Trust me many of us were wondering that since season 1.


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## Hand of Evil (Sep 23, 2008)

Hey, I liked it but there still are some dumb actions being performed by a number of characters.  

Maya got HOT!  And interesting.  See what happens when you go Americian!

Suresh - dumb and 



Spoiler



gone all Fly on us



Hero - dude should know by now and not be so innocent and dumb, hope 



Spoiler



he gets the girl, boy needs to get layed to become a man!'  Nothing like a bad girl.



I don't care how 'bad' the guys are from Sector 5 are, Sylar is going to mess them up! 

Rating: 7/10


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## John Crichton (Sep 23, 2008)

Very enjoyable.  All the characters were true to form.  I believe I enjoyed the Claire and Noah bits the most closely followed by (along with) Sylar.


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## EricNoah (Sep 23, 2008)

Good stuff by and large.  

Intro special was indeed awful.


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## Wormwood (Sep 23, 2008)

Entertaining, at the very least. Looks a lot better than the laughably bad season which preceded it.

That said, I liked Mohinder much better when he was played by Jeff Goldblum.


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## DonTadow (Sep 23, 2008)

Spoiler



I"m just going to throw this outthere. I don't think Nathan's power is flight. I think its the power to be an angel.  Which would make sense of why clair is so different. The product of an angel and a human.  The linderman thing through my theory off yesterday, until it was revealed that Linderman was in Nathan's head.  Perhaps an angel himself?


Though i will say i am completely stumped on Jessica, Nicki, new girl.  She can't possibly be the jessica nicky we know because i would assume it would take along time to get to the point of advisor for the governor. 

Did anybody peep my boy Marlo from the wire as one of he villians.  One of my favorite bad guys is now a badguy on my favorite show. awesome.


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## Brown Jenkin (Sep 23, 2008)

Well lots to digest. My comments are as follows (In sblock since that seems to be where we are going so far).

[sblock]
On to the characters:

Future Claire: Got whacked upside the head with a dumb stick. Points a gun a future Peter and thinks she can kill him. Not very bright. The dark hair does look good though.

Future Peter: Still kickass. It seems they are using Future Peter with his “Hiro changing the past” issues as a way to neuter Peter this season. While Future Peter is more intelligent and less whinny than Current Peter, he still needs to be permanently removed as he is too powerful for the show.

Current Peter: Not a bad way to neuter him. It seems the writers really want to keep writing his character as someone who needs to figure out his powers. Give it up and get rid of him permanently (See above)

Current Claire: Now there is some trauma for her. I can see how removing feeling from her could turn her evil this season. I did enjoy the healing is a lame power comment. I hope she goes hunting with her dad. From the previews she may have to spend time with Sylar which won’t help her psyche. I am still liking her but the writers need to be careful.

Mr. Bennet: While he may not have any powers his assassin/spy abilities got him sent to level 5. Way to go HRG. Still a fave.

Mrs. Bennet: Hopefully Claire goes off with dad and leaves her out of things.

Lyle Bennet: Doesn’t even get screen time anymore. Poor Lyle.

Mr. Muggles: Once more he is more popular than Lyle. Poor Lyle. Now the question is will he be left with Mom or go crime fighting with Claire. 

Claire’s Biological Mom: Not sure where they are going with this yet. 

Nathan: I picked up early Linderman wasn’t interacting with anyone else. As for his miraculous cure, it could just be leftovers from his previous cure. Adam/Claire blood does seem powerful. It will be interesting to see where his relationship with Tracy/Niki/Jessica goes.

Tracy/Niki/Jessica: I guess they really wanted Ali Larter back but realized Niki/Jessica just wasn’t working. Interesting to see that they are not shying away from the fact that Tracy and Niki/Jessica are played by the same person. I am curious to see where this goes. It seems that Angry Tracy is far more powerful than Angry Jessica. I would be curious how long it would take Adam/Claire/Sylar to recover from an attack by her.

Micah and his Cousin: I am happy they are out of the picture right now. They may be brought back as part of the Tracy/Niki/Jessica storyline. I just hope not.

Ma Patrelli: Once more her personality really comes out. Interesting how she isn’t afraid of Future Peter and can recognize him immediately. I am not sure I like that her power is dreaming. That leaves a question of what the power of the old black guy was. She makes a far better company leader than Bob.

Bob: Good riddance. I would have preferred Mr. Bennet offing him but as long as he is dead I am ok.

Elle: I hope this means her character will be better utilized. She really does want to do good, but dad left her a mental mess. Right now I would consider her the character I most want to see what happens too.

Adam: No big loss not having him involved. Yet?

Syler: I guess he is popular, but not with me. Like Peter he needs to be neutered to keep but really needs to be removed permanently. He is actually the one part of the show that I fundamentally don’t like. (Though Mohinder bellow may also qualify).

Matt: Tim Kring has been keeping to his apology so far. I hope he keeps to it here as well. No more than 3 episodes of Matt in Africa. Please, Please. Hopefully he is there just to lean a clue from the African future seer and gets back soon. Not sure about his stupidity in trying to read Peters mind again. 

Mohinder: Please kill him. Please Please Please. Unfortunately his Super-Stupidity power also rubs off on those near him and he keeps surviving. As for the new power. Some are saying The Fly is the ripoff. I think that it also looks a lot like an Outer Limits episode where a researcher creates a formula that improves his body and it keeps creating new features than get rid of human weaknesses until he an unstoppable non-human entity. It seems obvious that Mohinder is one of the good to evil transitions this year.

Maya: They can kill her off as well. She is a remnant of a failed storyline and seems to be a romantic foil for Mohinder. I thought Tim Kring was fixing that. She and Mohinder better tie in soon or this will be the storyline I totally ignore and go get food from the kitchen or do something else during.

Molly: Seems that writing her out is their choice. Too useful of a tool if they keep her I guess. The real problem though is we are about 6 months into the Heroes timeline from beginning of Season 1 and she has probably aged out of the character in real life. May explain Micah as well now that I think about it.

Hiro: Not liking that his mind is being messed with again. His story arc so far is better than last season (not hard at all) but not up to season 1 yet. I am waiting to see where this goes before making a judgement.

Ando: He really is the good guy. Unfortunately they probably wont resolve the betrayal to the end. I would give odds though that Future Ando is the good guy and Future Hiro was in the wrong.

Daphne: So far is an interesting foil for Hiro. Good casting. 

Haitian: So far MIA.

[/sblock]

Overall Tim Kring has kept most of his promises to fix Heroes. Other than the Mohinder/Maya storyline this seems to be a good start to season three. I am almost willing to forgive Season 2 and make this a must watch show again. They got at least 4-5 more episodes out of me from these two even if it does go bad again.


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## Dog Moon (Sep 23, 2008)

LightPhoenix said:


> I thought not telling us the villain's power that Peter is trapped in was a bit of a cop-out, but eh.




I was pretty sure they had.  It was brief and on one of the pages describing them all, but the villian had something to do with sound.


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## Sir Brennen (Sep 23, 2008)

DonTadow said:


> Though i will say i am completely stumped on Jessica, Nicki, new girl.  She can't possibly be the jessica nicky we know because i would assume it would take along time to get to the point of advisor for the governor.



It's been so long I can't remember everything that happened last season, but was Jessica "fixed" - that is, powers removed? Or did she leave "rehab" before that happened? If so, what happens if one gets injected with the formula? Do you get the same power back, or could you manifest a new one? 

Were they really experimenting on her in "rehab"? Jessica was last seen in the middle of a massive explosion. Stacie's cold ability might be a power that manifested out of self defense (and the way Jessica's mind already had a coping mechanism for her powers, a new personality was created as well.)


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## Taelorn76 (Sep 23, 2008)

Brown Jenkin said:


> Well lots to digest. My comments are as follows (In sblock since that seems to be where we are going so far).
> 
> [sblock]
> On to the characters:
> ...




I think this situation could bring back the whole don't trust my father routine from the last two season. How do you think she will react when she learns that 



Spoiler



Sylar and HRG working together


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## Arnwyn (Sep 23, 2008)

Tim Kring needs to keep apologizing after that episode, AFAIC.

Hated it. Made no sense, a huge number of despicable characters and actions, and out-and-out moments of idiocy.

It's only worth watching for Hiro and Ando - everyone else has become annoying gits, and Sylar's continued overexposure is going to help stink up the joint.


Edit: And "Save the cheerleader, save the world"? What a load of garbage that turned out to be.


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## Hand of Evil (Sep 23, 2008)

I guess Peter's Irish love has been wrote out of the story.


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## F5 (Sep 23, 2008)

I liked it.  Then, I didn't completely hate Season 2, either, so take from that what you will.

I think Nikki/Jessica/Tracy is/are the same person.  I'm beginning to suspect that her power is much the same as Sylar and Peter's; a multi-power.  Sylar needs to take his powers from other people, Peter needs to have come into contact with someone to use their power.  Maybe N/J/T has to encapsulate each new power with a new personality?  She needs to be strong, so she is, but she becomes the dead sister who she felt was the "strong one".  She's being burned alive, what does she need?  Ice powers.  So she creates a frigid "ice queen" personality (although I don't see that in the way she plays the character, but it was said often enough that I guess it's supposed to be the case).  

Doesn't explain how she could have gotten in with the governor so quickly...but in a world where super-clandestine organizations have access to folks with mind-control...I suppose anything's possible.


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## Dog Moon (Sep 23, 2008)

Hand of Evil said:


> I guess Peter's Irish love has been wrote out of the story.




Would she even technically exist anymore?  She was taken from the present and put into a future which never came to be.  She doesn't exist in the present anymore because she was taken, but since that future is no more, would it even be possible for Peter to go into the future that doesn't exist to find her?  Would she be shunted to the actual future?

I think time travel brings up too many questions and I think bringing back Caitlin? would be too problematic for the time being...


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## Hand of Evil (Sep 23, 2008)

Dog Moon said:


> I think time travel brings up too many questions and I think bringing back Caitlin? would be too problematic for the time being...




It is not just the time travel, it is the alternate time paths...Why would there be a Dark Hiro 



Spoiler



zapped by Ando, as he came about by Ando's death


 just a bit strange.


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## Punnuendo (Sep 23, 2008)

Loved it. Sylar, Elle, and Noah continue to be my favorites. Be interesting to see this year who steps up to do the right thing and who takes an easier path.

Oh, and "What? That's disgusting."


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## Crothian (Sep 23, 2008)

It was okay.  The stupidest part was them claiming those other escaped villians were worse then Sylar.  Most of the characters though have become blah.  There is a story being told and the writers don't seem to care if they have characters do dumb things so long as whatever their story becomes is not effected.  That, and the cast is way to big they need to thin the heard.


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## Brown Jenkin (Sep 23, 2008)

Crothian said:


> That, and the cast is way to big they need to thin the heard.




Can we start with Mohinder and Maya. Please Please. 

Next would be Sylar and Peter. 

Anyway. I agree the cast is too large.


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## Crothian (Sep 23, 2008)

Brown Jenkin said:


> Can we start with Mohinder and Maya. Please Please.
> 
> Next would be Sylar and Peter.
> 
> Anyway. I agree the cast is too large.




There is no character that I think the show really needs.  There are characters the show thinks it needs like Peter and Hiro and Sylar since it focuses on them.  But I have no favorite character which is a real shame and would have no issues with half the characters just stupidly dying in between episodes.


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## megamania (Sep 23, 2008)

I wish I could see the show.   Sounds like it is off to a great start however.


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## Relique du Madde (Sep 23, 2008)

Crothian said:


> It was okay.  The stupidest part was them claiming those other escaped villians were worse then Sylar.  Most of the characters though have become blah.  There is a story being told and the writers don't seem to care if they have characters do dumb things so long as whatever their story becomes is not effected.  That, and the cast is way to big they need to thin the heard.




I think they are "worse" then Syler because unlike Sylar they kill indiscriminately where as Slyar only kills to steal powers and escape capture.

I also agree that they need to thin out the characters and I think it's bad when many people agree on which ones should get the axe.  Sadly, since the writers seem to like the concept of deus ex machina and macgruffins I just wonder who will be around to save Heroes's world's future from the Nothing if Peter and Sylar was edited out of the story..


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## Taelorn76 (Sep 23, 2008)

Hand of Evil said:


> I guess Peter's Irish love has been wrote out of the story.




Damn I totally forgot about her


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## Ed_Laprade (Sep 23, 2008)

Kid Cthulhu said:


> Loved it. Sylar, Elle, and Noah continue to be my favorites. Be interesting to see this year who steps up to do the right thing and who takes an easier path.
> 
> Oh, and "What? That's disgusting."



I still hate Sylar, although that was the best line in the two episodes. (Of course he also had the stupidest line about only using 10-20% of the brain's capacity. As someone else said, that well debunked myth needs to be shot in the head. Repeatedly. And the body buried at sea. Wrapped in a few tons of cement.) 

Mohindar is my second least favorite. Peter has enough things going on that I don't hate him, but he could easily become another Sylar. And now that Elle's manipulating bastich of a dad is gone she could become one of my favorites. 

Thanks to hints in the TV Guide the 'big reveal' regarding Mrs. P. came as no surprise to me. And the prevelence of product placement in shows these days had me wondering if the "You're in good hands" line was there because it belonged or because All State paid for it? (Still a ggod line. But that thought, which popped immediately to mind, lessened it.) 

And characters who ought to know better acting like idiots all the time. But a whole lot better than the last season, so I'll stick around for a while, which I hadn't expected to. And nice to see Ali playing a non-nurotic character. So far. (But yeah, how did she get to be such a trusted advisor so quickly? Unless it really isn't Nikki/Jessica. After all, its said that everyone has a twin somewhere. And I didn't see her as an 'ice queen' either, except with regards to her powers.)

One last complaint: Doesn't anyone ever stay dead in this show? I hate it in the comics and I hate it here even more.


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## Staffan (Sep 24, 2008)

F5 said:


> I think Nikki/Jessica/Tracy is/are the same person.



Unless there's time travel going on with her, that's not possible. We first see her coming out of Governor Sheridan's bathroom as Sheridan sees the news about Nathan's miraculous recovery. That's approximately one day after the end of season 2. You don't get to show up and become the governor's aide and mistress in less than 24 hours.

She could be Niki's and Jessica's triplet or something, separated at birth. That's the most reasonably-sounding explanation, as far as I'm concerned.


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## Felon (Sep 24, 2008)

Crothian said:


> There is no character that I think the show really needs.  There are characters the show thinks it needs like Peter and Hiro and Sylar since it focuses on them.  But I have no favorite character which is a real shame and would have no issues with half the characters just stupidly dying in between episodes.



I happen to agree. Everyone's either outrageously powerful or fairly useless. And nobody's terribly smart or organized; Noah Bennet is pretty much as good as it gets.

And how many immortal/regeneration/healer guys do we have running around now? Can anybody be killed anymore?

Speaking of being killed, do you guys think that was Mojinder tearing off Claire's head in the future vision?


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## LightPhoenix (Sep 24, 2008)

Steel_Wind said:


> I don't tihnk Nathan's mind got fractured at all. I think Nathan started seeing Linderman right when Future Peter showed up - and put it in his head as a means to control his brother and ensure he does not go off script.
> 
> It's Parkman's talent going on here; not a Nikki / Jessica fracture.




I disagree with the analysis, but thinking back I think you're on to something.  



Spoiler



Who were the four in Angela's dream?  Niki/Jessica/Tracy, Adam, Knox?, and Maury.  My bet is it's Maury, especially given that he's seen Nathan before, and is manipulative.  Why else show him in the dream?





Dog Moon said:


> I was pretty sure they had.  It was brief and on one of the pages describing them all, but the villian had something to do with sound.




I missed that, and thought that character was someone else.  Good catch.  I only noticed him in the scene with HRG and Claire, going through the profiles... he mentions the flamethrower, the german (magnetism), and Knox (fear to strength), and says of the fourth, who Peter is trapped in, "you're better off not knowing."


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## Staffan (Sep 24, 2008)

Felon said:


> And how many immortal/regeneration/healer guys do we have running around now? Can anybody be killed anymore?



Four regenerators: Sylar, Peter, Adam, and Claire. Sylar and Peter should have the same type of regeneration Claire does, while it's not certain Adam's works the same way.

We've only seen one actual healer on the show as far as I can tell: Linderman. And he's dead, Nathan's delusions notwithstanding.



> Speaking of being killed, do you guys think that was Mojinder tearing off Claire's head in the future vision?



No. In Angela's vision, we got a good look at the people who were killing our Heroes off: Adam, Niki/Jessica/Tracy, Maury Parkman, and Knox. Knox is the guy who tears off Claire's head, and he's one of the escapees from level 5. His power is super-strength, boosted by people's fear.


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## Krug (Sep 24, 2008)

Ok but I think there's just TOO many storylines flying around. And I was going to shout at the screen when 



Spoiler



yet another painter who can see the future pops up


. 

The false deaths, particularly for 



Spoiler



Nathan Petrelli


, also grated.

Have mixed feelings about the 



Spoiler



supervillain team


 but we'll see. 

I still think it's all too busy and overwrought.


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## Ed_Laprade (Sep 24, 2008)

Yeah, the number of prognosticators is about the same as the number of immortals. Namely, way too many. But at least one of them got killed off early on. (The first one in the good ol days of season one.  )


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## John Crichton (Sep 24, 2008)

megamania said:


> I wish I could see the show.   Sounds like it is off to a great start however.



Do you have access to NBC.com?


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## Man in the Funny Hat (Sep 24, 2008)

I'm really not sure how this is "fixing" the show.  As has been pointed out the show already has too many characters and they just keep piling on more.  How can they possibly write a cohesive story line when it takes an hour just to touch base with HALF of them and ignore the other half until the next episode?  It feels to me like there's a lot of rushing about - but not much is actually happening.  There is a notable absence of tension, probably due in large part to having to deal with so many characters all the time.

Next gripe is that they seem to be overly fond of time travelling and very BAD at making it actually interesting.  Is the routine for the remainder of the series going to be:

Go to the future and see something is wrong.
Return to the past and in trying to fix the future actually CAUSE the future to be wrong.
Fix the error in step 2 and goto step 1 in a vain attempt to verify success?
With so many characters their interactions are too frequently haphazard, confused, forced and superficial.  I keep watching because I was captivated by these characters in season 1.  Season 2 came DANGED close to killing my interest.  While the opener for Season 3 is not at all a failure it certainly is NOT as strong as it needed to be.  Things had better get kicked up a notch and FAST or I will NOT be watching this show by mid-season.  I'll boycott it for being BRILLIANTLY conceived and TOTALLY bungled starting with the end of Season 1.


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## megamania (Sep 24, 2008)

John Crichton said:


> Do you have access to NBC.com?




Cable ends 500 ft away

Have a modem that runs at 24 speed on a good day (1960's phone lines)

My Heroes fix comes every September as a DVD set.


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## Steel_Wind (Sep 24, 2008)

F5 said:


> I liked it.  Then, I didn't completely hate Season 2, either, so take from that what you will.
> 
> I think Nikki/Jessica/Tracy is/are the same person.  Doesn't explain how she could have gotten in with the governor so quickly...but in a world where super-clandestine organizations have access to folks with mind-control...I suppose anything's possible.




Nikki Sanders is *dead*. The producers have been VERY clear about this. Nikki has been dead for a lil less than 36 hours at the time we are introduced to the Governor's parmour and confidante, Tracy.

So no - no time to forge that power relationship. 

Nikki is dead. 

It's not that the producers did not like Ali Larter as an actress on Heroes - they just realized that the charater as written was not working in a long term story arc.  The writers took real risks with Nikki since the inception of the show. Some of it paid off initially - but it was not a story arc that transferred well out of the "discovery" stage. Nikki had too much baggage.


Kill her off for real; bring her back in a different form, minus the baggage of DL and split personalities. 

So this really wasn't a split personality Nikki in another diguise. Whether this was her natural "twin" (Jessica never died?), or more likely, an outright clone resulting from a Company breeding program, will be revealed later in the season.

But  - if Beeman and Tim Kring are to be believed - she isn't Nikki or any split personality of same. 

While Micah seems to be staying with the show in some capacity, it does not look good for Monica.  Rumour has it she's being written out of the show this season.


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## Steel_Wind (Sep 24, 2008)

Arnwyn said:


> Tim Kring needs to keep apologizing after that episode, AFAIC.
> 
> Hated it. Made no sense, a huge number of despicable characters and actions, and out-and-out moments of idiocy.
> 
> It's only worth watching for Hiro and Ando - everyone else has become annoying gits, and Sylar's continued overexposure is going to help stink up the joint.




I really don't know why you continue to watch the show.

Don't get me wrong; you are perfectly entitled to not like it or criticize it all you like.  Take as much from the Hate table as you'd like; fill your boots.

But time after time on these forums, you continue to vent about Sylar as if the reality of the shows fans was _something other than what it is._

Look: Zach Quinto has become one of the three principal stars of the show. That may not sit well with you - but it happens to be true. Thinking they are going to somehow make him less of an emphasis when he is so damned popular isn't just misplaced hopes - it's downright _delusional_.

You don't have to like it; but complaining about it as if your complaint had a reasonable prospect of being satisfied is becoming a little trollish.


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## John Crichton (Sep 24, 2008)

megamania said:


> Cable ends 500 ft away
> 
> Have a modem that runs at 24 speed on a good day (1960's phone lines)
> 
> My Heroes fix comes every September as a DVD set.



Doh.  Bummer, man.


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## Mark (Sep 24, 2008)

Oh, and 



Spoiler



I am okay with them thinning out Maya's accent (it needed to be to avoid her continual over-emoting from sounding comic) but they needed to find a way in-show to explain it.  Teaming her up with Mojinder is a bonus since it cuts the time they use up on screen by half each episode.  I am hoping they spend at least half the season handcuffed to one another, or tied up with some dynamite, or sharing a padded cell in Odessa, or etc.


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## Crothian (Sep 24, 2008)

Steel_Wind said:


> You don't have to like it; but complaining about it as if your complaint had a reasonable prospect of being satisfied is becoming a little trollish.





Not even close.  I complain about the show, too.  IT has flaws and it is fine to have people in a discussion thread to discuss those flaws and what they don't like about the show.

I think the worst thing the show did to Sylar was show his face and give his backstory.  He was cool as the killer of heroes and before he was understood.  The show does do characters well which is a shame.


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## Felon (Sep 24, 2008)

Steel_Wind said:


> But time after time on these forums, you continue to vent about Sylar as if the reality of the shows fans was _something other than what it is._
> 
> Look: Zach Quinto has become one of the three principal stars of the show. That may not sit well with you - but it happens to be true. Thinking they are going to somehow make him less of an emphasis when he is so damned popular isn't just misplaced hopes - it's downright _delusional_.
> 
> You don't have to like it; but complaining about it as if your complaint had a reasonable prospect of being satisfied is becoming a little trollish.



Can't speak for anyone other than myself, but the hordes of Zach Quinto fans aren't amassing outside my window, so I don't presume to know what the majority of Heroes fans think of Sylar. You seem to assume everyone is equally in tune with this knowledge of the character's popularity that you claim as factual without citing sources.

Personally, I think the character's serial killer element is played out, and the character needs to do more than show up out of the blue, be all creepy, and open up people's heads. And of course, since he's a villain, there's a natural desire to want to see him answer for his crimes. Maybe they'll pull a Barnabus Collins with him, who knows? But right now, plant me firmly in the "Sylar oughta go" camp. Pardon me if that's somehow trollish.

IMHO, Heroes has a lot of folks complaining about it rather than tuning out completely because they like the premise, they see some seeds of coolness here and there, but on the whole the show lacks cohesiveness. King and his team seem to prefer throwing out lots of ominous foreshadowing through magic paintings, dream sequences, and disjointed trips to the future over actually telling the story they're foreshadowing.


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## Felon (Sep 24, 2008)

LightPhoenix said:


> I disagree with the analysis, but thinking back I think you're on to something.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I was thinking of him as well, although I think Linderman's alive, and Maury uses his power to conceal his appearance to others. Nathan did magically come back to life somehow. Maybe Adam showed up and gave him some magic blood. Again, the fact that Peter didn't use his magic blood makes little sense, and once characters have stopped behaving rationally, then trying to figure out rational explanations for things that happen is futile.


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## Staffan (Sep 24, 2008)

Felon said:


> Again, the fact that Peter didn't use his magic blood makes little sense,



Do we know if Peter's blood retains its healing properties after it has left his body? My impression of Peter's abilities are that he has to actively think about using abilities (with the possible exception of regeneration), which could very well mean that the blood can't heal anyone else the way Adam's and Claire's can.

Though it's a bit odd that he hasn't even tried.


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## drothgery (Sep 24, 2008)

What bothers me is that anyone would even try to manipulate Sylar at this point. Anyone with the slightest bit of experience with him knows he needs to be put down. Heck, I don't see why the other 'worse than Sylar' guys are alive, either.


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## BraveSirRobin (Sep 24, 2008)

drothgery said:


> What bothers me is that anyone would even try to manipulate Sylar at this point. Anyone with the slightest bit of experience with him knows he needs to be put down. Heck, I don't see why the other 'worse than Sylar' guys are alive, either.




Didn't Ma Patrelli tell Sylar that she was his mother.  Now maybe she meant that figuretively, as in she was responsible for the experiments that gave everyone her powers.  But there is a chance that she was literal and actually gave birth to him and placed him with his "family" for some reason or another.  That could be why she thinks she can manipulate him.


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## drothgery (Sep 24, 2008)

BraveSirRobin said:


> Didn't Ma Patrelli tell Sylar that she was his mother.  Now maybe she meant that figuretively, as in she was responsible for the experiments that gave everyone her powers.  But there is a chance that she was literal and actually gave birth to him and placed him with his "family" for some reason or another.  That could be why she thinks she can manipulate him.




Consider what he did to the woman who raised him (at the very least).


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## Mark (Sep 24, 2008)

Felon said:


> I was thinking of him as well, although I think Linderman's alive, and Maury uses his power to conceal his appearance to others. Nathan did magically come back to life somehow. Maybe Adam showed up and gave him some magic blood. Again, the fact that Peter didn't use his magic blood makes little sense, and once characters have stopped behaving rationally, then trying to figure out rational explanations for things that happen is futile.





Maybe future Peter did use his magic blood and has put Nathan on this new path to distract, inclusive of the Lindemann delusions in case he needs to be discredited for shooting his mouth off again about superpowers.  I wonder if Peter also disabled Nathan's power to keep him from proving anything to anyone.  I'll bet this tack goes on for a bit, then Nathan spills the beans and tries to proove it only to be locked up as a nutcase, complete with any number of nurses having witnessed his hallucinations.


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## Brown Jenkin (Sep 24, 2008)

BraveSirRobin said:


> Didn't Ma Patrelli tell Sylar that she was his mother.  Now maybe she meant that figuretively, as in she was responsible for the experiments that gave everyone her powers.  But there is a chance that she was literal and actually gave birth to him and placed him with his "family" for some reason or another.  That could be why she thinks she can manipulate him.




I think she is just a controlling biotch. She called him Gabriel even after he told her to call him Sylar. I think she knows his past and that he always wanted the approval of his real mother. Real mom got killed because she didn't support him. Ma Patrelli knows how to push peoples buttons and I think she is doing that right now. Her goal is to make herself Sylar's new mother figure. Of course it will probably come back to bite her, maybe even right in the brain .


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## DonTadow (Sep 24, 2008)

Crothian said:


> It was okay.  The stupidest part was them claiming those other escaped villians were worse then Sylar.  Most of the characters though have become blah.  There is a story being told and the writers don't seem to care if they have characters do dumb things so long as whatever their story becomes is not effected.  That, and the cast is way to big they need to thin the heard.



I'd have to agree that all of those characters are worse than sylar. To take a d&d reference, they are all choatic evil, no whim as to what they do or who they hurt.  Sylar, as proven the episode, is laweful evil, if he does not have to kill he won't. He has a greater purpose.  From a who is more eivl point of view, I"d say sylar becahse he has a plan. But who is more dangerious, the evil people who don't have a plan. 

We haven't seen what they can do, but torching an old lady for her car and laughing at her body.  That's horrible.  I can't wait to see Mario's fear power can do.


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## DonTadow (Sep 24, 2008)

Crothian said:


> Not even close.  I complain about the show, too.  IT has flaws and it is fine to have people in a discussion thread to discuss those flaws and what they don't like about the show.
> 
> I think the worst thing the show did to Sylar was show his face and give his backstory.  He was cool as the killer of heroes and before he was understood.  The show does do characters well which is a shame.



I too was saying to myself yesterday that the show's worse features are the time traveling (which still makes Dr. Who the only show to do it right) and the large amount of characters. I need to see some real death.  The cast seriously needs to be curtailed.  I have no problem connecting the storylines, nor having favorite characters but i need to spend more time with a certain set, even if its not my favorite. I"d be happy if everyone not on this episode is nothing more than a reoccuring character.  They need to take some lessons from soap operas. Only have a handful of main characters and a bunch of reoccuring ones.  

As for time travel, its bad but not unfixable. They need to establish some rules.  what happens to old time lines. How many realities are there out there.  When the future is changed does any future travelers in the past cease to exist.  

BTW, what if peter's girlfriend is the darkness.  The thing that should exist but doesn't.  I'm just throwing that out there because i know she'll be back.  

NOt sure if this was mentioned earlier but remember, we're seeing young (character level) heroes.  I've said since season 1 that nathan's power is simply not flight, no more than parkman's was mind reading. Nathan has the power of an angel, and flight is the simplist of the powers, simliar to linderman. 

Sylar is a complicated villian, which i liked. i think it would have been lame to have him as the nameless killer who keeps showing up and killing people. I think we'll see another change in sylar now. Another evolution of his character. he honestly has the best power, will he realize that he has won.


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## Umbran (Sep 24, 2008)

Steel_Wind said:


> Suresh is not stupid. He's a 18 or 19 Int; he just happens to have a "7" wisdom...




My wife actually hit on it yesterday.  Suresh isn't actually particularly smart.  He actually already has a power - "Biology Superscience".  basically, he doesn't know jack about real biology or medicine (which is why every word out of his mouth on the subject of biology or medicine makes real biologists cringe) - he just has the superpower to manipulate biological systems.


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## Hand of Evil (Sep 24, 2008)

Brown Jenkin said:


> I think she is just a controlling biotch. She called him Gabriel even after he told her to call him Sylar. I think she knows his past and that he always wanted the approval of his real mother. Real mom got killed because she didn't support him. Ma Patrelli knows how to push peoples buttons and I think she is doing that right now. Her goal is to make herself Sylar's new mother figure. Of course it will probably come back to bite her, maybe even right in the brain .



I don't, I do think she is using her voice power on him, plus from the intro sneak peak spoiler....



Spoiler



she provides him a super with that knows a person life just by meeting them...she then feed her to him...this tell me they are making him more like Peter.  With this power he no longer has to kill.


 I just don't know if I like that thought.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Sep 24, 2008)

Umbran said:


> My wife actually hit on it yesterday.  Suresh isn't actually particularly smart.  He actually already has a power - "Biology Superscience".  basically, he doesn't know jack about real biology or medicine (which is why every word out of his mouth on the subject of biology or medicine makes real biologists cringe) - he just has the superpower to manipulate biological systems.




Does that mean that Sylar has somehow managed to get Suresh power without eating his brain? Because Sylar also has no clue about biology. (See "percentage of brain use" myth.  )

---

I liked the start of the season. The only thing I don't care much about (yet) are those "supervillains". They just lack any characterisation.

And count me in as a Quinto/Sylar fan. I like this character. Maybe Heroes would work without him (probably), but I still enjoy his presence on the screen, and the character he plays. Maybe I am just a "power-gamer".


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## Arnwyn (Sep 24, 2008)

Steel_Wind said:


> Don't get me wrong; you are perfectly entitled to not like it or criticize it all you like.



And after all that, this is all that needed to be said. Thanks!



> You don't have to like it; but complaining about it as if your complaint had a reasonable prospect of being satisfied is becoming a little trollish.



*shrug* Your love of Sylar/Quinto has been well documented on these boards AFAIC, so that pretty much explains your entire post.

In any case, I'm certainly not going to pretend how much I know about "the shows fans". And while it's great that, after others have noted their dislike for what has become of Sylar, you decided to jump on my particular post, if you really _really_ have a problem with my dislike of Sylar, you are free to put me on ignore - I know I'd appreciate it. Thanks in advance!


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## Felon (Sep 24, 2008)

Staffan said:


> Do we know if Peter's blood retains its healing properties after it has left his body? My impression of Peter's abilities are that he has to actively think about using abilities (with the possible exception of regeneration), which could very well mean that the blood can't heal anyone else the way Adam's and Claire's can.
> 
> Though it's a bit odd that he hasn't even tried.



Well, scratch what I said. Brain fart. Peter was really Future Peter and he didn't want Nathan to survive. Which is why I believe Linderman is alive.


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## DonTadow (Sep 24, 2008)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Does that mean that Sylar has somehow managed to get Suresh power without eating his brain? Because Sylar also has no clue about biology. (See "percentage of brain use" myth.  )
> 
> ---
> 
> ...



 I stayed quiet after the first mention but thought I"d step in on the second.  Everytime someone says the ole 10 percent argument there's always one person who steps with the old biological answer. 

 Actually it is not as much a myth as much as it is a misunderstanding about what is meant.  Physically we use most of our brain about 90 percent.  But theoretically we only use a small capability of what is beleived can be done when factoring in evolution.  And that us usually what is meant.  The things that we could be able to do with millions of years of evolution is amazing to theorize about.  It's like a computer. You actually use a lot or most of your hard drive even if you have only 5 or 10 gig abites of a 200 gig harddrive saved.  However, It's not until we start loading in new programs and files do we actually manipulate all of its capabilities.  YOu're making an argument of biology and the actual argument is theoretical use.


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## Krug (Sep 24, 2008)

[sblock]I like the pathos involved when Sylar eats his mom's brain; maybe at the end of the season.  [/sblock] Very Greek Opera.


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## Felon (Sep 25, 2008)

Umbran said:


> My wife actually hit on it yesterday.  Suresh isn't actually particularly smart.  He actually already has a power - "Biology Superscience".  basically, he doesn't know jack about real biology or medicine (which is why every word out of his mouth on the subject of biology or medicine makes real biologists cringe) - he just has the superpower to manipulate biological systems.



Oh, Umbran, please don't ever change. 

Been said before, but it bears saying again: real science is great and all, but it just doesn't work too well at explaining highly unrealistic things. Sometimes you gotta fudge it, y'know? Can't always just say it's magic.

Suresh is plenty stupid though, I'll give you that!


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## Staffan (Sep 25, 2008)

DonTadow said:


> I too was saying to myself yesterday that the show's worse features are the time traveling (which still makes Dr. Who the only show to do it right)



I thought B5 did it pretty well, though they only had it happen once (though we got to see both sides of it).


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## stonegod (Sep 25, 2008)

Staffan said:


> I thought B5 did it pretty well, though they only had it happen once (though we got to see both sides of it).



Yeah, but it worked because it was planned (both sides) and incorporated into events *long before* Season 1 was on paper. Heroes used it w/o thought whenever. If they plotted more long term (or left more possible hooks), it'd be different.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Sep 25, 2008)

DonTadow said:


> I stayed quiet after the first mention but thought I"d step in on the second.  Everytime someone says the ole 10 percent argument there's always one person who steps with the old biological answer.
> 
> Actually it is not as much a myth as much as it is a misunderstanding about what is meant.  Physically we use most of our brain about 90 percent.  But theoretically we only use a small capability of what is believed can be done when factoring in evolution.



Huh? What do you mean? How do we factor in evolution? What are you talking about?


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## Umbran (Sep 25, 2008)

Felon said:


> Oh, Umbran, please don't ever change.




I'm going to fork this into another discussion, to not clutter the thread with a tangent...


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## Wulf Ratbane (Sep 25, 2008)

Crothian said:


> That, and the cast is way to big they need to thin the heard.




The heard should be thinned and not scene.


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## Vocenoctum (Sep 25, 2008)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Huh? What do you mean? How do we factor in evolution? What are you talking about?




The biological "you only use 10% of your brain" is an error, but I think he meant "we only use 10% of the potential of what our brain could do", which is just arbitrary and there's no way to substantiate or quantify.


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## Umbran (Sep 25, 2008)

I don't know if they need to thin the herd, so much as not feel the need to show _everybody_ in all episodes. 

Right now, Matt Parkman is a good example.  We don't need to get his side-trek in every episode.  Let him be unseen for a couple of episodes, and then go back and watch what he's doing in another episode that's mostly about him.


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## DonTadow (Sep 25, 2008)

Vocenoctum said:


> The biological "you only use 10% of your brain" is an error, but I think he meant "we only use 10% of the potential of what our brain could do", which is just arbitrary and there's no way to substantiate or quantify.




Yeah what he said.  When people say 10% or (I believe it originated in the 1930s) people mean the potential.  In theory, we only use 10% of its capability.  It is quite obvious that, because evolution teaches us that we learn new abilities as life goes on, there is a lot of potential uses for the brain we have yet to tap.   

So the next time you hear people say we only use 10% of our brain, know It does not mean biological physical size.


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## Brown Jenkin (Sep 25, 2008)

DonTadow said:


> So the next time you hear people say we only use 10% of our brain, know It does not mean biological physical size.




Except for maybe in Mohinder's case.


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## Krug (Sep 26, 2008)

Scenes from next episode - warning: spoilers -

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZnnR-xjrC0]YouTube - Heroes Season 3 - 3x03 One of Us One of Them 4 Sneak Peaks[/ame]


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## Umbran (Sep 26, 2008)

DonTadow said:


> In theory, we only use 10% of its capability.




Who's theory?  In order to say that, you must have somehow measured the total potential.  Who claims to have ever measured the total potential of the human brain?



> It is quite obvious that, because evolution teaches us that we learn new abilities as life goes on, there is a lot of potential uses for the brain we have yet to tap.




Um, I'm sorry, but I don't get what you're saying.  Evolution does not teach us that we learn new abilities as life goes on.  Many species go forward without any capability to learn whatsoever.  There is no particular reason to think that as we go forward in time, our ability to do things with our brains must grow.


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## John Crichton (Sep 26, 2008)

I can't believe y'all are still yammering over the 10% brain thing.


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## Dire Bare (Sep 26, 2008)

LightPhoenix said:


> I wonder if Nathan's mind got "fractured" by the process of his emerging abilities, like Niki's did.



I'm pretty sure he is hallucinating.  He did it last season after his first death, every once in a while seeing crispy Nathan in the mirror.







> No Micah... blah.



Yet.  He was very prominent in the premiere special before the two episodes started, so I'm sure he wasn't written out like Molly and Micah's cousin.







> Second worst part, actually in the episodes?  That bloody 10% of brain idea that in completely wrong and really needs to be shot dead.



I'm amazed at all the hubbub over this phrase.  Yes, it is a scientific myth.  One that is widely believed to be true and has been a staple in comics and scifi for a long time now.  Why should Sylar be any different from anyone else on this matter, he's not a friggin' scientist!  The writer's didn't include it because they think it's true, they included it because the character of Sylar thinks it may be true and it fits in with his motivations perfectly.  Sheesh!


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## Ed_Laprade (Sep 27, 2008)

Also, here's something I don't do much, a prediction. Claire wants someone to teach her how to fight. Elle is at loose ends. They're about the same age. And they hate each others guts. What could be more natural than to pair them up? (In fact, I'm surprised no one else has mentioned it. Or is it so obvious that no one considered it worth mentioning?)


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## Relique du Madde (Sep 27, 2008)

Dire Bare said:


> Yes, it is a scientific myth.  One that is widely believed to be true and has been a staple in comics and scifi for a long time now.  Why should Sylar be any different from anyone else on this matter, he's not a friggin' scientist!  The writer's didn't include it because they think it's true, they included it because the character of Sylar thinks it may be true and it fits in with his motivations perfectly.  Sheesh!




Let's see... what was Sylar's original power again?   Wasn't it something like being able to understand how things work.  So given that don't you think he's know that human being uses more then just 10% of their brains.


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## Remus Lupin (Sep 28, 2008)

I'm surprised no one has floated this yet, but I'd bet even money that Mohinder is becoming a cockroach.


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## Relique du Madde (Sep 28, 2008)

Remus Lupin said:


> I'm surprised no one has floated this yet, but I'd bet even money that Mohinder is becoming a cockroach.




Dude...  That would make alot of sense considering that at the start of Heroes Mohinder was lecturing about the evolutionary superiority of the cockroach.


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## megamania (Sep 28, 2008)

Remus Lupin said:


> I'm surprised no one has floated this yet, but I'd bet even money that Mohinder is becoming a cockroach.




That was always my assumption based on what folks are saying here.  Maybe Sylar can take his head off and we'll see if he still lives for a few days.  



Relique du Madde said:


> Dude...  That would make alot of sense considering that at the start of Heroes Mohinder was lecturing about the evolutionary superiority of the cockroach.





...and the constant appearances of them within the show.  Kring has a thing for the critters.



Relique du Madde said:


> That really depends on your definition of "rape."  If Rape is just a sexual violation then no.   However, if Sylar receives sexual satisfaction from "brain munching" or scalping people then it might qualify as sexual assault.





which by definition is what motivates a serial killer.  Satisfaction.


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## Merkuri (Sep 28, 2008)

Just saw it last night.  I don't think I'll ever like the show as much as I did in the first season, but I liked it.

My predictions:
[sblock]Tracy is really Jessica, the twin sister that Nikki thought was dead and eventually developed into a multiple personality.  She probably doesn't know the name Jessica or that she ever had a twin.  I totally thought she was Nikki (I didn't remember how the last season ended) until she froze that guy.

Hiro has always been kinda naive and Ando seems to be his conscience or at least his common sense.  Seems clear to me that in the short fight Hiro saw in the future between him and Ando that Ando was trying to save the world and Hiro was somehow in the wrong.[/sblock]

Oh, and about the 10% of the brain thing... I believe the original statistic was that we only use 10 % of our brain _at a time_.  It has since been misinterpreted to mean that we only have the ability to use 10% of our brain, period.  You can read more about it on Snopes.  Regardless of where it came from, it's very obviously untrue to scientists who've studied the brain.  It's a great tool for science fiction writers, though (what would happen if we used all of it?!?) so it'll take a long time to die.


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## megamania (Sep 28, 2008)

What you were thinking of for the actress that played Nikki is what I was thinking but time will tell.  

This is one thing I do like about Heroes.  They present questions and eventually they answer them creating new questions.  It keeps things moving.


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## stevelabny (Oct 2, 2008)

Felon said:


> IMHO, Heroes has a lot of folks complaining about it rather than tuning out completely because they like the premise, they see some seeds of coolness here and there, but on the whole the show lacks cohesiveness. King and his team seem to prefer throwing out lots of ominous foreshadowing through magic paintings, dream sequences, and disjointed trips to the future over actually telling the story they're foreshadowing.





we have a winner. 

this is why I watch.
and this is the main reason I bash.

I've said all along that Heroes is everything I love about comic and everything I hate about comics compressed into 60 minutes. 

This premiere episode crammed in so much more stuff, with zero buildup so none of it had any effect.  To "apologize" for hero-in-the-past and the Slumber Twins... we got breakneck pacing and no drama. 

Any project where the writer starts catering to the fans directly is doomed to fail.


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## Mark (Oct 3, 2008)

John Crichton said:


> I can't believe y'all are still yammering over the 10% brain thing.





It's self-contradictory.


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## LightPhoenix (Oct 4, 2008)

stevelabny said:


> this is why I watch.
> and this is the main reason I bash.




Add me to that category as well.

If there are shows I don't like, I don't watch them and I don't (usually) post in the threads.  _Chuck_ is an excellent example of this for me.  I gave it a fair shot, didn't like it, stopped even bothering to watch it let alone bash it.

The 10% thing, however, is because I've taken a fair degree of neuroscience classes, and even TA undergrad neuroscience.  It's inevitably the first question that comes up each semester.


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